# [D] Germany | road infrastructure • Deutsche Autobahnen



## Verso

Right, that makes sense, thanks!


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## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> Chris, you're like an Autobahn encyclopedia!


Yeah i did spend my time useful :lol:


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## Patrick

I have never driven on the A60 although I live so close to that area (well, but the A1 part (name "1" because it is the (second) westernmost major autobahn north-south-direction (ok, the A3 begins deeper in the west, but also ends deeper in the east, but it is to discuss that the road number system doesn't work so properly in Germany as in the States )) from Trier to Wittlich to Vulkaneifel (=> and then A48 to Koblenz and Dernbacher Dreieck and A3 to Ransbach) I drive nearly every weekend. But I always forget to charge camera battery. The part of the A1 between Wittlich and Vulkaneifel is partially really really bad, you feel like bumping over the road (especially on the right lane; speed limit is mostly 100 because of the damages of the asphalt)).

I was told the A60 is a really good part to check the speed limit of your car because of looooong curves and stretches and few traffic and no or few limited parts. How was your impression? PS: nice pics again


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## ChrisZwolle

The A60 is VERY empty, almost no traffic. And no truck traffic aswell. However, it has some climbs, but i think it's okay to test your car here. But i don't have a fast car, sometimes i couldn't get faster than 110 climbing a hill.


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## Rebasepoiss

^I hope it's not very offtopic to ask: What car do you drive?


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## ChrisZwolle

A 1995 Peugeot 306  only 128.000 km on the counter.


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## Verso

^ My last 4 cars were all Peugeots. :lol:


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## Patrick

i could have guessed you'd drive those 128.000 km in one year 

btt: I edited the map in the 1st post a bit, it's now including yellow autoban stretches










EDIT: I have some trouble with uploading it, pic will follow later


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I'm interested in that map with Gelbe Autobahnen. They really look just like motorways. In fact, in many countries such roads would be described as motorways.


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## Nephasto

^^The main diference between autobahnen and gelde autobahnen is that the former were build to replace(built on top of, in many cases) regular roads, right?


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## radi6404

Chris1491 said:


> ^^ I'm interested in that map with Gelbe Autobahnen. They really look just like motorways. In fact, in many countries such roads would be described as motorways.


Comeon man, you can´t consider the Gelbe Autobahnen as real motorways, i know how it feels to drive on them and on the real Autobahnen, it is way different and the Gelbe Autobahnen go through towns and also sometimes of a sudden become two lamed national roads, it is the case here close to where i live. The Gelbe Autobahnen usually have not the newest asphalt and the lames are narrower, they don´t have shoulders. You said in some coutries these would be consideret motorways, in bulgaria they wouldn´t considered motorways i think, for other countries i don´t know.


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## ttownfeen

In the first half, the autobahn didn't look any more impressive than a run-of-the-mill interstate in the US. The second half was more in-line with what I've come to associate with an autobahn.


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## ChrisZwolle

radi6404 said:


> Comeon man, you can´t consider the Gelbe Autobahnen as real motorways, i know how it feels to drive on them and on the real Autobahnen, it is way different and the Gelbe Autobahnen go through towns and also sometimes of a sudden become two lamed national roads, it is the case here close to where i live. The Gelbe Autobahnen usually have not the newest asphalt and the lames are narrower, they don´t have shoulders. You said in some coutries these would be consideret motorways, in bulgaria they wouldn´t considered motorways i think, for other countries i don´t know.


What the hell are they calling these roads in Bulgaria?

B9 Karlsruhe - Speyer:


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## Nephasto

^^The stretches with the standards this one have are indeed real motorways, although not called autobahn.

But that only applies to stretches with limited acces (no same level access), 2x2 configurations and that have shoulders, like the one on the picture.


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## Verso

What's the speed limit on Yellow Autobahns? And are there no plans for completing the Munich ring in the south-west?


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## ChrisZwolle

This Yellow Autobahn (B9) has a speed limit of 120km/h. They say the B2 north Augsburg has no speed limit.


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## Verso

Chris1491 said:


> *A46 Heinsberg - Wuppertal*












How strange!


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, this part used to be a Bundesstraße. But they rebuild it to Autobahn standards. Immediatly after this left exit, there is an interchange with the A57.


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## radi6404

Chris1491 said:


> What the hell are they calling these roads in Bulgaria?
> 
> B9 Karlsruhe - Speyer:


they would say it´s a bad fourlamed road, or they probably would say magisrala but they wouldn´t qualify this as an autobahn or avtomagistrala as they know how real avtomagistralas look. but i like such Gelbe Autobahnen, the B10 here hasn´t shoulders.


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## Verso

Radi, we'll kill you some day. :laugh:


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## ChrisZwolle

Verso, you have to get in line for that...


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## Verso

:rofl:


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## radi6404

why do you want kill me?


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## Verso

B/c only you think that the Yellow Autobahn on the photo couldn't qualify as motorway.


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## Nephasto

In any country in the world it would... but in Bulgaria, a country with one of the worst road networks in the EU it wouldn't!! :nuts:

No comments...


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## radi6404

Nephasto said:


> In any country in the world it would... but in Bulgaria, a country with one of the worst road networks in the EU it wouldn't!! :nuts:
> 
> No comments...


that´s quite bullshit man, it hasn´t oen of the worst roadnetworks man, don´t talk bullshit if you know a shit, all national roads have good pavment and are becoming motorways. the new motorwys are designwise IMO better than most other european motorways. Especially the Struma motorway. I said the Gelbe Autobahn can be a real motorway but it looks old.


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## Rebasepoiss

It's hard for me to believe that all this complaining comes from a Bulgarian guy....Really, Radi, I'm waiting for pics of Bulgarian roads.


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## radi6404

Rebasepoiss said:


> It's hard for me to believe that all this complaining comes from a Bulgarian guy....Really, Radi, I'm waiting for pics of Bulgarian roads.


why don´t you go to the Bulgarian motorways thread, there are plenty of pics, or maybe visit my wikipedia article of the Struma motorway. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struma_motorway


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## Patrick

here's the map, now working 

source: www.autobahnatlas-online.de

Blue = Autobahn
Green = Gelbe Autobahn
Black Name = City bigger than 50.000 inhabitants (tried to get all on the map, except for agglomerations where there's not so much space to write it all down)
Grey Name = some cities smaller than 50.000 inhabitants with Autobahn/Gelbe Autobahn access to compare the situation to some bigger cities
Brown Name = Bigger city on the other side of the border










A Gelbe Autobahn in general is for local importance to amend the Autobahnen or as bypasses for middle and bigger cities


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## ChrisZwolle

Cool. Added to the first post.


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## Nephasto

radi6404 said:


> that´s quite bullshit man, it hasn´t oen of the worst roadnetworks man, don´t talk bullshit if you know a shit, all national roads have good pavment and are becoming motorways. the new motorwys are designwise IMO better than most other european motorways. Especially the Struma motorway. I said the Gelbe Autobahn can be a real motorway but it looks old.


You're the one who's always saying that every coutry's roads sucks, besides Bulgaria... you act like Bulgaria has the best roads in the world, and the rest of the countries roads are just lame compared to Bulgarias allmighty roads.
And even if that was true (which certainly isn't) it wouldn't give you the right to do arrogant remarks every now and then.

So please stop acting like a 14 year old (which you probably are), and act with a bit more respect towards other countries road systems.


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## radi6404

Nephasto said:


> You're the one who's always saying that every coutry's roads sucks, besides Bulgaria... you act like Bulgaria has the best roads in the world, and the rest of the countries roads are just lame compared to Bulgarias allmighty roads.
> And even if that was true (which certainly isn't) it wouldn't give you the right to do arrogant remarks every now and then.
> 
> So please stop acting like a 14 year old (which you probably are), and act with a bit more respect towards other countries road systems.


No i am not, i say when a raod is good but i just don´t like german roads, the ride on German roads isn´t the best and the asphalt looks like some gravel when it is raining, that´s why i don´t like German roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

Deutsche Autobahnen sind die Beste der Welt!


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## radi6404

Chris1491 said:


> Deutsche Autobahnen sind die Beste der Welt!


No Chris it would read

Deutsche Autobahnen sind die besten der Welt.

Bulgarische Autobahnen sind vielleicht nicht die besten, aber die schönsten der Welt. 

Just kidding


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## ChrisZwolle

Come on, Bulgaria has one of the most underdeveloped road networks in the EU.


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## Verso

Well, radi obviously isn't saying that Bulgarian roads are the best in the world (except Struma, which is logical, b/c it's new), and he doesn't have to be from Germany to have a right to criticize other countries' roads either (although actually he does live in Germany ), but you can't say some road doesn't deserve to be called motorway just b/c it's old, and doesn't have fucking awesome shiny crash barriers (lol ). Only if the PAVEMENT is bad, then it cannot qualify as such, even if it meets ALL the other criteria. Ok, that Yellow Autobahn on the picture doesn't seem to have a fence, which is quite crucial for deserving to be called motorway, but everything else is ok, IMO. Yes, the crash barrier is a complete eyesore, also the trees and bushes could be cut from time to time, plus the pavement looks OLD, but NOT BAD! A motorway doesn't have to be shiny to be called like that. And the motorway from Sofia towards Turkish border (which you actually don't even consider motorway, lol ) looks very straight, and even has 6 lanes, but everywhere I've seen it so straight, the landscape was flat! Now please stop complaining just b/c of some crash barriers, b/c they are almost NEVER shiny (especially not on old motorways; and they even don't have to be old for that), b/c you're ruining our pleasure when looking at them.


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## ChrisZwolle

> Ok, that Yellow Autobahn on the picture doesn't seem to have a fence, which is quite crucial for deserving to be called motorway


Really? We never use fence in the Netherlands... only in areas with wildlife.



> b/c you're ruining our pleasure when looking at them.


So true. every thread is spoiled that it aint shiny or horny of hot enough...


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## Verso

Patrick, that's an awesome map!  Although I have to say that, for example the Munich (München) INNER Ring doesn't deserve to be called Autobahn, whether Yellow or Blue or whatever. I know it's officially a road reserved for motor vehicles (Kraftstraße, or sth like that ), but: not everywhere, I think, it has quite some traffic lights, plus the speed limit is just 60 km/h.  It's a great city ringroad, but even when I go from Salzburg to Zurich, I use the entire A99 (the outer Ring) to bypass the city.  The one through Karlsruhe is great, and so is the one from Koblenz to Bonn, for the rest I don't have a clue.


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## ChrisZwolle

The B54 from Enschede to Münster is mostly 2+1 lanes and is a fast connection from East Netherlands to the A1. Speed limit is 100 or even 120 is some stretches.


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## Verso

Chris1491 said:


> Really? We never use fence in the Netherlands... only in areas with wildlife.


I dunno, I thought so. :dunno:


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## ChrisZwolle

Man i want to go to Germany. If the weather is okay, i will check the new A37 (NL) and adjacent B403 near Meppen. That should be a completed Gelbe Autobahn too now. 

I am planning some weekend to go to Cuxhaven or Bremerhaven for pics. That's like 350km from my city, so i can do that in one day (750km or so).


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## radi6404

Verso said:


> Well, radi obviously isn't saying that Bulgarian roads are the best in the world (except Struma, which is logical, b/c it's new), and he doesn't have to be from Germany to have a right to criticize other countries' roads either (although actually he does live in Germany ), but you can't say some road doesn't deserve to be called motorway just b/c it's old, and doesn't have fucking awesome shiny crash barriers (lol ). Only if the PAVEMENT is bad, then it cannot qualify as such, even if it meets ALL the other criteria. Ok, that Yellow Autobahn on the picture doesn't seem to have a fence, which is quite crucial for deserving to be called motorway, but everything else is ok, IMO. Yes, the crash barrier is a complete eyesore, also the trees and bushes could be cut from time to time, plus the pavement looks OLD, but NOT BAD! A motorway doesn't have to be shiny to be called like that. And the motorway from Sofia towards Turkish border (which you actually don't even consider motorway, lol ) looks very straight, and even has 6 lanes, but everywhere I've seen it so straight, the landscape was flat! Now please stop complaining just b/c of some crash barriers, b/c they are almost NEVER shiny (especially not on old motorways; and they even don't have to be old for that), b/c you're ruining our pleasure when looking at them.


you are right verso, but just something what is strange to me is, when i am going to Bulgaria and entering the not so rich countries, after Austria shiny motorways start, but in Austria and especialy Germany they aren´t, how does that look to the tourists who travel to Germany.


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## Nephasto

Verso said:


> Patrick, that's an awesome map!  Although I have to say that, for example the Munich (München) INNER Ring doesn't deserve to be called Autobahn, whether Yellow or Blue or whatever.



Yes, I was also going to say that not all the gelbe aotobahnen signen in the map really do have motorway standarts... only a part of them.

That can be checked out in viamichelin, which makes the distinction between a mere dual carrigeway (which can have same level access and trafic lights for example) and a dual carrigeway with motorway caratceristics (motorway standards).


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## Verso

radi6404 said:


> you are right verso, but just something what is strange to me is, when i am going to Bulgaria and entering the not so rich countries, after Austria shiny motorways start, but in Austria and especialy Germany they aren´t, how does that look to the tourists who travel to Germany.


Well, Austria could do a little more on its motorways, especially the ancient signage )), but Germany has a HUGE motorway system, so you can't really complain. What do you think of US motorways?


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## Nephasto

radi6404 said:


> you are right verso, but just something what is strange to me is, when i am going to Bulgaria and entering the not so rich countries, after Austria shiny motorways start, but in Austria and especialy Germany they aren´t, how does that look to the tourists who travel to Germany.



What do you mean by shiny? Which have shiny crash barriers??
That's irrelevant, and they're only shiny because the motorway is new...


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## Verso

Btw, Austria and Germany have old motorways, whereas Slovenia, for example, has built most of them in the last decade. Check our old motorways (Ljubljana-Postojna (the oldest section is from 1972) and Ljubljana-Kranj), the pavement is ok, but crash barriers look quite shitty.


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## radi6404

Nephasto said:


> What do you mean by shiny? Which have shiny crash barriers??
> That's irrelevant, and they're only shiny because the motorway is new...


No and if they decide to put new color of the crashbarriers they will be shiny again aswell. But with shiny i mean if the markings can be seen clear and the asphalt is shiny, one colored, not neccesarily black. With shiny i generaly mean clean.


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## ChrisZwolle

Germany has a heavily travelled huge motorway network. You can't expect that the road is always asphalt because of the amount of truck traffic requires concrete. And you don't want to have continuous baustelles either.


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## Verso

I've discovered a way to kill radi:laugh::
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/29/a2gorenjska056ky3.jpg :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## radi6404

Verso said:


> I've discovered a way to kill radi:laugh::
> http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/29/a2gorenjska056ky3.jpg :lol: :lol: :lol:


that´s some very big shit. I feel like somewhere in Africa there.


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## Nephasto

:colgate:



radi6404 said:


> No and if they decide to put new color of the crashbarriers they will be shiny again aswell. But with shiny i mean if the markings can be seen clear and the asphalt is shiny, one colored, not neccesarily black. With shiny i generaly mean clean.


Well, it's important that one can clearly see the markings on the pavement, but on the photo's posted in here, you can see it clearly.
That's only a problem when the pain starts to wear off alot.


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## radi6404

I have a few German motorway pics aswell, that´s the Autobahn from Passau to Munich. 



















The Autobahn A81 some kilometers before Stuttgart, here you have trouble to see the markings.


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## Verso

radi6404 said:


> that´s some very big shit. I feel like somewhere in Africa there.


I knew you'd love it! :laugh:


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## Verso

I know radi's problem! He never drives under 200 km/h on motorways, so of course he complains all the time, who wouldn't? :laugh:


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## Patrick

How about Autobahnen that were not built?

The red line was a plan that was dropped in 2003 by the pressure of environmentalists, to connect Koblenz and Siegen with a Autobahn. The blue line was an older plan, connecting Koblenz and Mittelhessen (Wetzlar/Gießen/Marburg).









Here is a bigger map of the so called Westerwaldautobahn planning. The 4 numbers in the south of the map refer to the 4 linked pictures below (all stuff taken from http://de.geocities.com/westerwaldautobahn/)
The scales may be different between the different parts of the map

















1. http://de.geocities.com/westerwaldautobahn/hart1b.jpg
2. http://de.geocities.com/westerwaldautobahn/her2b.jpg
3. http://de.geocities.com/westerwaldautobahn/pano2b.jpg
4. http://de.geocities.com/westerwaldautobahn/pano1b.jpg


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## ChrisZwolle

Interesting! I know a lot of Deutsche Autobahnen, but i didn't know this one was planned... But there is an excellent road from Limburg to the A45?


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## Patrick

After the plans of the Autobahns were dropped, there are several plans to upgrade the existing Bundesstraßen. 
The B49 from Limburg to Gießen is already partially 2+2 lanes, the rest is under construction or planned (the current 2+2 parts are from Limburg till the merge of the B54, the Weilburg bypass and from Wetzlar to the A480 north of Gießen). But it doesn't go through any town anymore.

For the B255 from Montabaur to Rennerod there are plans for upgrading it to mostly 2+1 and 2+2 and built bypasses around every town it goes through. Two small parts north of Montabaur and the next town are already 2+2 completed and the part in between is currently under construction.

The B414 from Altenkirchen to Hachenburg, Marienberg => Herborn gets also a partially upgrade to 2+1.

I don't know about the B54.

For the B413 there are several bypasses planned. My town already has the current only one since 15 years.



EDIT: the costs of the Westerwaldautobahn would have been around 560 million euros. Rumors say that the fornmer Rheinland-Pfalz Minister of Economies, Traffic, Agriculture and Viniculture, Hans-Artur Bauckhage, wanted to build his own monument since the Autobahn was close to his own hometown. Another conspicuity was, that the route would have been gone through 3 relocated areas that are owned by a big basalt quarry company.


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## Energy2003

i could offer A96 Austria - Memmingen

an Nr. 7 Memmingen - Kempten (but this road is gelbe autobahn)


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## Patrick

yeah, feel free to post them  pictures are always nice. Never been in this region.


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## ChrisZwolle

Energy2003 said:


> and Nr. 7 Memmingen - Kempten (but this road is gelbe autobahn)


Since when is the A7 a Gelbe Autobahn?


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## Energy2003

Around Kempten, there is "Autobahndreieck Allgäu" but NO highway goes from Kempten to Memmingen ... is a normal "Schnellstrasse" where you can drive 100 - 130 km/h.

i will make a few pics on saturday,with the highways around Kempten


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## ChrisZwolle

Only the A7 connects Kempten with Memmingen. There are some alternatives, but those are only local Kreis or Landsstraßen.
Don't you mean the B12 Kempten -> Isny? (westward)


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## Energy2003

Chris1491 said:


> Only the A7 connects Kempten with Memmingen. There are some alternatives, but those are only local Kreis or Landsstraßen.
> Don't you mean the B12 Kempten -> Isny? (westward)


Around Kempten is good Highway, but just for about 10 km, after that, at the highest point, near "Weitnau" it´s just a "B12" in direction Isny 

i think im wrong, i´m surely leave the main highway around Kempten, to come to a "wannabe" highway (direction Kaufbeuren - Augsburg)

i will keep my eyes open this weekend, and make some pics


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## Energy2003

for Chris (and all the others) 

*A96 *austrian border in direction Memmingen. on the sign you see Kempten, i take this exit




then we get on the " *12* " .... 59km with nearly no autobahn 

this may will save time in 2 years. then you wouldn´t have to drive through Isny (30 km/h)



here the 12 gets an *BAB980* 



3 lanes ... not bad 



we get one the "Autobahnkreuz" and will get on the " *7* "
for a few meters we have 7 lanes (both sides)



here i have to leave and get on the " *12* " (again?!)



possibility to don´t build a 2nd lane ... 
sign means "try to drive right please" 



here we are .... i will leave here now. but i don´t think your interested in raods lower classified than "Bundesstrasse"


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## Patrick

radi might be interested in the quality of the asphalt on the land- and kreisstraßen 

thanks for sharing your pics 

EDIT: I forgot we're in Bavaria, so not Landstraße, but Staatsstraße


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice to see those pics. I was once on vacation in Isny, but that was like 10 years ago, so i don't remember much, except that it rained almost 3 weeks in a row.


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## Rohne

@ Energy2003: nice pics. But why did you drive in the middle lane when the right one was free? 



> here i have to leave and get on the " *12* " (again?!)


Yup, it's still the B12. At Waltenhofen where the A980 starts it turns north, runs through Kempten, intersects with the A7 west of Kempten and goes on to the A96 at Kaufbeuren. Then it's replaced by the A96 and east of Munich by the completed parts of the A94. The B12 ends at the czechian border north of Passau.
Many Bundesstraßen have those gaps, coz parts of them where replaced by Autobahnen.


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## Energy2003

Chris1491 said:


> Nice to see those pics. I was once on vacation in Isny, but that was like 10 years ago, so i don't remember much, except that it rained almost 3 weeks in a row.


maybe, i can help your brain  





not offtopic, because it shows the "*12*" in ISNY :nuts:


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## Energy2003

Rohne said:


> @ Energy2003: nice pics. But why did you drive in the middle lane when the right one was free? .



so, i was the driver so my position on photo was correct by driving right!  


Patrick: radi might be interested in the quality of the asphalt on the land- and kreisstraßen 

between A96 and Weitnau a lot of km got new material, i´m no geologic, so i don´t know hno:


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## radi6404

^^ I noticed that in Germany they started to repair the lots of old roads, well it´s allready time, many raods have different pavment every 5 m, you can see strokes with tar (maybe there were potholes once) etc. But now the time came to repave some older roads, it also doesn´t look very nice to see roads like I described.


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## ChrisZwolle

I'm going for a drive tomorrow in Germany 

My route will be: A30 - A1 - A29 - B210 - A31, so via Nordhorn, Osnabrück - Oldenburg - Wilhelmshaven - Aurich - Emden, and back to the Netherlands. 
I will take my camera with me :cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

*Bad Bentheim - Rheine - Osnabrück - Cloppenburg - Oldenburg - Varel - Wilhelmshaven*

This serie goes from the Dutch-German border near Bad Bentheim/Oldenzaal via the oldfashion A30 to Osnabrück, where we take the A1 north. The section near Osnabrück has been widened to 2x3 lanes for 12km. After that, we see a busy 2x2 Autobahn with lots of trucks. After 72km, at Dreieck Ahlhorner Heide, we take the A29 north to Oldenburg, we continue past Oldenburg all the way to the end in Wilhelmshaven, virtually in the North Sea. A few pics of the A29 near the Wilhelmshavener Kreuz in south direction are also included, but then 2 of 3 sets of batteries were dead, i found out. So no pics of the B210 from Wilhelmshaven to Emden badly. 
But still, a nice 222 pics to enjoy!










I sorted the pics out by roadnumber, in chronological order. 

*The A30, 63 photo's*

*The A1, 53 photo's*

*The A29, 106 photo's*

I hope you guys enjoy this Niedersachsen tripreport :cheers:


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## Pavlvs

German system is the best in Europe and probably in the world, but it 's boring.


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## x-type

wow Chris fantastic report!! and this picasa thing works excellent!

interesting, Germans didn't cut the grass and bushes, like Italians 

question: what those signs mean?


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## ChrisZwolle

Those U-signs means "Umleiting" or detour. All Autobahnen have such an Umleitung/detour, in case of long traffic jams or road closure's, you can follow these signs to the next Autobahn auffahrt (exit) or follow them for a significant length. They are pretty well signed. 

I think it's a great system, but few people actually use it. 

The advantage is, that German police don't have to post a detour in case of an accident or something. They are already there.


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## Alex Von Königsberg

Pavlvs said:


> German system is the best in Europe and probably in the world, but it 's boring.


My thoughts exactly


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## Patrick

what do you mean by saying it is boring? just curious  thanks Chris for this series, it gave me some memries back when I was in Wilhelmshaven a couple of years ago

love these signs 








but sometimes I wonder if a racer would recognize this sign while riding at 250km/h 

tomorrow I'll try to take some pics on the A3 / A48 / A1 / A602 / A64 from my hometown via Koblenz and Trier to the Luxemburgian border (to the next gas station )


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## Patrick

radi6404 said:


> ^^ I noticed that in Germany they started to repair the lots of old roads, well it´s allready time, many raods have different pavment every 5 m, you can see strokes with tar (maybe there were potholes once) etc. But now the time came to repave some older roads, it also doesn´t look very nice to see roads like I described.


that's so true, sometimes some bad roads are really just like a patch rug (Flickenteppich)


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## ChrisZwolle

Patrick said:


> tomorrow I'll try to take some pics on the A3 / A48 / A1 / A602 / A64 from my hometown via Koblenz and Trier to the Luxemburgian border (to the next gas station )


The gas station on the Luxemburgian A1 near Wasserbillig has a great view over the valley. In the direction of Trier.


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## Patrick

I usually go to Wolters in the town of Wasserbillig (because Match Supermarket is just next to it, to buy some beer from belgium), but I'll check it out, thanks for the tip


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## Patrick

damn,this time, I weren't able to take some pictures with the digicam because I forgot my charging cable in Trier. 

So, here are only some bad quality pics, taken with the photo function of a small video cam.

A3, direction to Frankfurt, heading to Dreieck Dernbach









A48 Dreieck Dernbach - Koblenz - Dreieck Vulkaneifel
















especially I love this part, riding down the hills of the Westerwald into the valley of the Rhine river

















































































A1 Dreieck Vulkaneifel - Wittlich - Dreieck Moseltal

























































A602 Dreieck Moseltal - Trier


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## ChrisZwolle

What a poorly designed Autobahns there, especially the A48. Never drove that road (yet  ).


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## Patrick

what do you mean woth poorly?

The missing shoulders on the 2x3 strechtes of the A48? It used to have 2x2 (what you can see on the bridges and on the exits, which are still 2x2) with shoulder, but due to rising traffic numbers (of course not comparable to those in the Netherlands ), they early widened the road to 2x3 by leaving out the shoulder and just repaint the lines. But on some places, there are some cutouts (Nothaltebucht).

And the aspahlt is always having different colors, due to different ages of renovation (damn, my english :rant:) and it is really bad on some streches, especially on the truck line


----------



## Energy2003

*A96 Memmingen - München*

i used a few pics because some people may be interested in munich traffic! 










an interactive traffic sign which shows where at the "Ring" is lot of traffic





@Munich (think there is no official "A xx" 




here must be the definitly end of A96


----------



## rick1016

Less traffic volume than in North America.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ it's holiday season now, so traffic is low in the summer months (except for the travel day of saturday).


----------



## Energy2003

directly in munich i didn´t make any pics, because the roads are narrower than in Austria IMO. even the autobahn
coming from A96 to >through munich< A8 there was enough traffic on a lot of lanes 


coming from the country, i was afraid *lol*

pictures where shot on Saturday afternoon, not good weather


----------



## Rohne

The end of A96 is the intersection in the third last picture (you only see the signs there). The last 2 photos show the "Mittlerer Ring", numbered as B2R (R for "Ring"), so it's part of the B2. In the last picture you can see a blue sign in the background. There the A995 starts, leading to intersection München-Süd with A8 and A99.


----------



## x-type

this "ring" sign is fantastic and usefull! i know for it at München's bypass, does it appear somewhere more?


----------



## mgk920

Rohne said:


> The end of A96 is the intersection in the third last picture (you only see the signs there). The last 2 photos show the "Mittlerer Ring", numbered as B2R (R for "Ring"), so it's part of the B2. In the last picture you can see a blue sign in the background. There the A995 starts, leading to intersection München-Süd with A8 and A99.


Fascinating images. I was tracing these and other nearby roadways on Google Maps aerial images and noticed that a roadway called 'Ständlerstaße', running eastward from near the north end of the A-8, looks like it is/was intended to be much more of a highway than it is now, like an incomplete autobahn. Where is/was it intended to go and what is that office campus that is near its 'ghost' end?

Mike


----------



## Rohne

@mgk920: I'm not sure, but maybe it should become the start for the so-called "Grasbrunnstrecke", a new Autobahn from Munich to Rosenheim, to bypass the existing A8 with the Irschenberg, a section without shoulders which is really hard to widen.


----------



## Jeroen669

I don't know or this link is already mentioned, but on http://www.rippachtal.de you can find loads of pictures from german autobahnen.


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## radi6404

the best German motorway i drove on:




























This is a new stretch of the A94, the asphalt is not as smooth as you expect it for such a new motorway but still very good.


----------



## KING BOB

a very clean flat road. i would love to feel how it would be like on that road.


----------



## radi6404

KING BOB said:


> a very clean flat road. i would love to feel how it would be like on that road.


It doesn´t feel as good as you expect, there are bumps from time to time.


----------



## Patrick

the leftside barrier is ugly, don't like concrete barriers in general


----------



## radi6404

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3729/bild076sq8.jpg

this pavement looks good, is it concrete, anyway, it looks pretty good and new.


----------



## TheCat

Patrick said:


> the leftside barrier is ugly, don't like concrete barriers in general


They are safer and superior in general. All new higher quality motorways are often built with concrete. The only reason not to use concrete is to save costs.


----------



## keber

radi6404 said:


> http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/3729/bild076sq8.jpg
> 
> this pavement looks good, is it concrete, anyway, it looks pretty good and new.


Actually it is not concrete. Autobahns in Bayern are mostly in asphalt (some are in concrete though, like A92, i think)


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## radi6404

keber said:


> Actually it is not concrete. Autobahns in Bayern are mostly in asphalt (some are in concrete though, like A92, i think)


Because it´s asphalt explains why it aktually loks very good and very modern instead of shit concrete. But why is it so bright if it is asphalt?


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## ChrisZwolle

You can make asphalt in virtually every color.


----------



## geogregor

Chris1491 said:


> You can make asphalt in virtually every color.



Including red
In UK on some emergency lanes they use red asphalt.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Nothing special, all Dutch cycle paths are red asphalt. Must be thousands of kilometers.


----------



## geogregor

radi6404 said:


> Because it´s asphalt explains why it aktually loks very good and very modern instead of shit concrete. But why is it so bright if it is asphalt?


Men, do you have concrete-phobia?
On every thread you write some post you always mention two things:
a) how bad concrete is comparing with asphalt (not true both have advantages and disadvantages)
b) how great Struma Motoway is. (I don't know, never been in Bulgaria )

Is your opinion about concrete based on some research or you just don't like look of concrete?


----------



## RawLee

geogregor said:


> Men, do you have concrete-phobia?
> On every thread you write some post you always mention two things:
> a) how bad concrete is comparing with asphalt (not true both have advantages and disadvantages)
> b) how great Struma Motoway is. (I don't know, never been in Bulgaria )
> 
> Is your opinion about concrete based on some research or you just don't like look of concrete?


somewhere,he said that he dont like that because its bumpy,its concrete,not so smooth,and not black.


----------



## keber

radi6404 said:


> Because it´s asphalt explains why it aktually loks very good and very modern instead of shit concrete. But why is it so bright if it is asphalt?


1. It's not so shiny and new and oh-my-god-who-knows-what:nuts:
2. Picture was taken in cloudy evening. 
3. Both.


----------



## burj-dubai-lover

german autobahnen are amongst the best in the world, if not the best already. it's good to see some good pics.


----------



## x-type

i wouldn't say they are the best. Germany has one of the best motorway networks in the world, but not all motorways are modern - there are still old fashioned ones. i like excellent signalization there and wide lanes and good ammouint of exits- not to rare, not to often


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Indeed. But really a lot of German Autobahnen are very outdated, short exit and entrance lanes, while the speeds on the Autobahn is high, French, Dutch, Spanish and other motorways are much better designed as German ones. Most Autobahnen have a very old concrete surface too. 
A high speed limit doesn't make a motorway good. It's the alignement which do.

And don't forget, there are always construction works, whereever you travel. 

But the signage is the best in the world in my opinion, however Dutch signage is very good too (on motorways, not on other roads). And the German drivers are generally disciplined, in oppose to Belgian or Italian drivers.


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## Rohne

There aren't many short entrance/exit lanes left. Most are 250m long.
Germany's federal government doesn't spend enough money in it's Autobahn network, so that many large projects like the upgrading of hundreds of kilometers each of A3, A8 and others to 6/8 lanes which already are in the pipeline will still take some time.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah but a lot of entrance ramps have sharp bends, so you can't accelerate much. That's no problem for the German muscle cars, but not every car has 150 HP.


----------



## x-type

ok, i appreciate those signs when you're are coming close to exit (similar to coming close to railway crossing) - i don't know if they are set at all german motorways, but i know they are often there and it is good -> that's kinda excuse for short exit ramps.

but the shortest ramps are in Italy! disaster!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On the Polish A4, there used to be 90 degree turns on the "motorway" (which felt like riding a gravel road).


----------



## Jeroen669

^^ I've seen some 90-degree turns on German autobahnen yesterday, but that was on autobahnen with construction works.

German autobahns are mostly good, but could be safer with: 

- more lightning on it
- better designed ramps
- longer incoming lanes

That would justify the high limits a lot better.


----------



## radi6404

Jeroen669 said:


> ^^ I've seen some 90-degree turns on German autobahnen yesterday, but that was on autobahnen with construction works.
> 
> German autobahns are mostly good, but could be safer with:
> 
> - more lightning on it
> - better designed ramps
> - longer incoming lanes
> 
> That would justify the high limits a lot better.


also better smoother pavment which isn´t so rough.


----------



## Patrick

but they are colorful :nuts::booze: www.autobahn-bilder.de



















































































somehow, I often see pictures of excellent roads having one and the same color in other countries. Seem the germans to be the only one who take other colors/materials when working on a Autobahn?


----------



## radi6404

No, the Autobahns simply have diferent colors because they just repair some parts and lines of the motorways, in other countries they usually repair the whoe section if there appear holes, no matter if they are on one lame. I am wondering how old the asphalt on German autobahns is, because in bulgaria asphalt which is 7 years old is very black so the asphalt there must be 30 years old, isn´t it? Not the black parts ofcourse.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So there are now 5 lanes of traffic on the A3 near Köln during rushhour? What are the effects on traffic jams?


----------



## Patrick

i am not very often in Cologne (maybe three or four times a year) and then I take another road to get into the city. But I often hear that that section is jammed on the radio in the traffic news (especially northbound, the right side on that pic: "A3 Frankfurt Richtung Oberhausen zwischen Autobahndreieck Heumar und Köln-Dellbrück" (or Köln-Mülheim or Leverkusen, because of construction works (widening the part between Kreuz Köln-Ost and Kreuz Leverkusen up to 4 lanes; they have to rebuild every bridge across the Autobahn there because they are too short as they were build when the A3 originally had 2 lanes + shoulders (and later the shoulders were repainted to the third lane)))) is very common


----------



## RawLee

Now that is a complex sentence!


----------



## lambersart2005

actually, traffic flows much better now towards the south on A3. When the construction site is finished, I think the all-day congestion around Köln-Ost towards the north will dissapear, too! Anyway, I really don't like the different types of asphalt they used there - it totally destroys the setting ;-) And WHY did they do that crap? It is completely new now..... 

and here, as we always see the same photo of the A3 in Cologne during bad, grey november weather, here a sunny shot, taken by me in MAR/APR 07 :cheers:


----------



## radi6404

lambersart2005 said:


> actually, traffic flows much better now towards the south on A3. When the construction site is finished, I think the all-day congestion around Köln-Ost towards the north will dissapear, too! Anyway, I really don't like the different types of asphalt they used there - it totally destroys the setting ;-) And WHY did they do that crap? It is completely new now.....
> 
> and here, as we always see the same photo of the A3 in Cologne during bad, grey november weather, here a sunny shot, taken by me in MAR/APR 07 :cheers:


that´s typically German, it functions but looks FUCKING SHITTY, it should be one colered dark asphalt, as if big asphalt can´t survive 10 years without renovation, but they are so ubersmart that they do such bullshit, what idiots they are, i hope the renovated A8 wont look so fucking shitty, do Germans have any good looking autobahns at all excenpt the A94, seems they don´t have.


----------



## Patrick

i especially fucking like the goddamned shitty fickfuck design of brainless idiotic unterdeutschmann, but i fucking know for deedelee-sure, there is just hirnverwichst nothing verficktengrauezellenamputiertescheisendrecksbetter than unitystrong struma hno: (i'd prefer one color though due to the effect of the 4 lines, prefer bicolor on 2-lane-roads)

thank god that my tiny fucking 54hp nissan micra sliteyedshitricetransporter can reach at least 180km/h, no matter if road is lightgrey or darkgrey :tongue:

yes, so typical deutsch:

damn, that looks so shitty, but works so good


----------



## radi6404

Patrick said:


> i especially fucking like the goddamned shitty fickfuck design of brainless idiotic unterdeutschmann, but i fucking know for deedelee-sure, there is just hirnverwichst nothing verficktengrauezellenamputiertescheisendrecksbetter than unitystrong struma hno:
> 
> thank god that my tiny fucking 54hp nissan micra sliteyedshitricetransporter can reach at least 180km/h, no matter if road is lightgrey or darkgrey :tongue:
> 
> yes, so typical deutsch:
> 
> damn, that looks so shitty, but works so good


Patrick, don´t get angry, the fact that i don´t like german autobahns and think that struma looks and feels better hasn´t to matter for you. On the other hand Germany has great skinny girls, we have less and less skinny girls in Bulgaria and probably allready have less skinny girls than Germany in our region. that´s more sad than having a supermotorway. Docors told in the news that there´s high percentage which gets above the healthy weight, and that here in Bulgaria. 

And the German cars are awesome, Porsche rules


----------



## Patrick

the bright part looks ok, as it contrasts with the dark part, but if it only that bright, i have to get used to it. there are two short parts of the A3 between Köln and Frankfurt which are really new (1-2km each, renovation finished somewhere 1-3 years ago, in the area of the neustadt/fernthal exit and a part between ransbach-baumbach and dierdorf) and where all 3 lanes and the shoulders were that bright. first moment was strange. feels good though, but sounds very different.

sometimes, i overreact, too, but your choice of words _can_ be provocating (especially for me, i can be a real freaky hothead)


----------



## radi6404

^^ Theere was new part of A8 of concrete which didn´t feel that bad but looked bad old.


----------



## Patrick

oh yes, i forgot that point, it indeed looks much older than it is, like black hair turned to white 

oh, here are two pics

neustadt/fernthal after renovation









ransb.-b. to dierdorf before renovation (looks nearly the same like neustadt now, and you can see that the other side was already made)








it doesn't look like this anymore









www.autobahn-bilder.de


----------



## geogregor

radi6404 said:


> Patrick, don´t get angry, the fact that i don´t like german autobahns and think that struma looks and feels better hasn´t to matter for you. On the other hand Germany has great skinny girls, we have less and less skinny girls in Bulgaria and probably allready have less skinny girls than Germany in our region. that´s more sad than having a supermotorway. Docors told in the news that there´s high percentage which gets above the healthy weight, and that here in Bulgaria.
> 
> And the German cars are awesome, Porsche rules


Oho Struma again.hno: 
You really can't write about anything without mentioning it :lol: 
About ring of Koln.
Maybe they use concrete on two outside lines (for trucks) becouse it's stronger and lasts longer and asphalt on inside lanes becouse is smothers and quieter in higher speed but not as strong as concrete.
With all respect guys I have more trust in German engineers than in you.
Especially that your main argument is purely esthetic: "i don't like this color"
You can choose your girlfriend's dress by color not road surface man:bash:


----------



## wyqtor

radi6404 said:


> Patrick, don´t get angry, the fact that i don´t like german autobahns and think that struma looks and feels better hasn´t to matter for you. On the other hand Germany has great skinny girls, we have less and less skinny girls in Bulgaria and probably allready have less skinny girls than Germany in our region. that´s more sad than having a supermotorway. Docors told in the news that there´s high percentage which gets above the healthy weight, and that here in Bulgaria.
> 
> And the German cars are awesome, Porsche rules


If you say that having beautiful girls in a country is more important than a supermotorway, then I have to agree with you  . I don't know much about Bulgaria, but IMO most girls in Germany are ugly. Romanian girls are among the most pretty in this part of Europe. :cheers: 

And about the colors, I hate them too. If you make a road in many colors, at least make the main surface all black and emergency lane white, like in Slovenia, that way it's more clear. But the worst thing (sometimes related to different layers of asphalt) is that German Autobahns aren't smooth, they are quite bad compared to, say, Italian ones (also the latter have mostly one color, I noticed. )


----------



## radi6404

wyqtor said:


> If you say that having beautiful girls in a country is more important than a supermotorway, then I have to agree with you  . I don't know much about Bulgaria, but IMO most girls in Germany are ugly. Romanian girls are among the most pretty in this part of Europe. :cheers:
> 
> And about the colors, I hate them too. If you make a road in many colors, at least make the main surface all black and emergency lane white, like in Slovenia, that way it's more clear. But the worst thing (sometimes related to different layers of asphalt) is that German Autobahns aren't smooth, they are quite bad compared to, say, Italian ones (also the latter have mostly one color, I noticed. )


Well in Germany there are very much very ugly girls but at least there are skinny girls and skinny girls can´t be ugly, there are aktually very nice good looking skinny girls in germany which are narrow and so on. I don´t know about Romanians just about the girl which sings in Dragostaditei or how it is called and she looks fucking awesome, are many romanian girls like that? In bulgaria there are just moderate ones.


----------



## wyqtor

radi6404 said:


> Well in Germany there are very much very ugly girls but at least there are skinny girls and skinny girls can´t be ugly, there are aktually very nice good looking skinny girls in germany which are narrow and so on. I don´t know about Romanians just about the girl which sings in Dragostaditei or how it is called and she looks fucking awesome, are many romanian girls like that? In bulgaria there are just moderate ones.


Only on the Cote d'Azur, Monaco and the Croatian coast I have seen a larger number of beautiful girls than in Romania. I haven't been to any ex-USSR countries though, just many EU countries and Croatia, Serbia.


----------



## keber

lambersart2005 said:


> and here, as we always see the same photo of the A3 in Cologne during bad, grey november weather, here a sunny shot, taken by me in MAR/APR 07 :cheers:


Two righ tracks are concrete, other asphalted. Probably they wanted to save money and time, so they decided to make only truck lanes from concrete, other asphalted. It looks strange, however. But I wouldn't bother.


----------



## goschio

radi6404 said:


> No, the Autobahns simply have diferent colors because they just repair some parts and lines of the motorways, in other countries they usually repair the whoe section if there appear holes, no matter if they are on one lame. I am wondering how old the asphalt on German autobahns is, because in bulgaria asphalt which is 7 years old is very black so the asphalt there must be 30 years old, isn´t it? Not the black parts ofcourse.


The colour of the asphalt is not really a sign of age. Many north german motorways have very bright asphalt directly after construction. Thats a result of the materials they use.

And the different colours are resulting from partial repairs. The right truck line needs repairs more frequently and they often use a different asphalt then.

I personally prefer concrete surfaces like on many of the new autobahns in eastern Germany. Looks much better after repairs and I really like the bright surfaces. Black surfaces are a nightmare during night. Scares the shit out of me when I drive with 200.


----------



## goschio

Some webcams of Frankfurt autobahns:

A5 Niederrad:









A66 Zeilsheim:









A66 Eschborn:









A5 Westkreuz









A3 FRankfurt-Süd









A3,A5 Frankfurter Kreuz









A3 Hanau


----------



## radi6404

goschio said:


> The colour of the asphalt is not really a sign of age. Many north german motorways have very bright asphalt directly after construction. Thats a result of the materials they use.
> 
> And the different colours are resulting from partial repairs. The right truck line needs repairs more frequently and they often use a different asphalt then.
> 
> I personally prefer concrete surfaces like on many of the new autobahns in eastern Germany. Looks much better after repairs and I really like the bright surfaces. Black surfaces are a nightmare during night. Scares the shit out of me when I drive with 200.


But man, why is it that new asphalt is so bright when new, it is only in Germany the fact. I never saw a new motorway out of Germany with bright asphalt, the asphalt on new Austrian motorways is very black for example and the ride on it is pure joy, fucking amazing how smooth it feels.


----------



## goschio

^
Check out the Ostseeautobahn A20. The surface is relative bright although its a pretty new autobahn.


















Well, its not really that bright, but not as dark as most other new ones.


----------



## radi6404

^^ Oh, it´s ok, it´s not that bright, the Struma motorway hasn´t the darkest asphalt either and the asphalt there looks smooth.


----------



## RawLee

How long is that wild-crossing? We only have small ones...


----------



## goschio

RawLee said:


> How long is that wild-crossing? We only have small ones...


Not that big, around 40m width. I just know they were with 2.5 mio EUR each relative expensive.


----------



## RawLee

goschio said:


> Not that big, around 40m width. I just know they were with 2.5 mio EUR each relative expensive.


2,5m EUR is not that much. Thank you!


----------



## Rebasepoiss

x-type said:


> ^^ yeah, it might be 2,75, i'm not sure, but i know that i read it is definitly less than 3 m


 In Estonia, it has to be 3m wide on a motorway, though we don't have motorways, but that's the regulation.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Jeroen669 said:


> 2,5m is okay. A trucker can park his truck there without a direct need for other users to go to the left. I thougt in holland the minimum is 2,75, or with 'spitsstroken' (rush hour lanes) or when busses are allowed to drive on the emergency lane, even larger.


2,5 m is too narrow. Trucks may be up to 2,60m wide, not counting mirrors. If another truck passes by, it definatly have to make a move to the left, since you don't want to drive with a 10cm distance by that truck on the em lane. 

In the Netherlands, it's mostly 3 - 3,5m wide, although i seen some wider ones. It's a shame that they turn the em lanes on the busiest motorways to extra lanes, since they are most needed on those busy motorways. More traffic is more chance at a breakdown.


----------



## goschio

Motorway at the new trade fair in Stuttgart. The structure above the autobahn is a parking house for the trade fair.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^I love that kind of big structures over motorways. They look cool and help to save land.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Massive. it's been a while since i drove there, about 5 years ago. Last time we drove via Kassel - Schweinfurt - Bamberg - Nürnberg instead of via the Ruhrgebiet and Frankfurt am Main. 

Better scenery along the A7, and not so busy as the A3.


----------



## Patrick

but in the future, you'll find this near the A3 in Frankfurt at the airport 
a 660m long office/trade/hotel complex


















this is how it looks now. there is the ICE train station for the airport. They'll just build the building on top of that


----------



## rick1016

cool


----------



## kingsdl76

*Autobahn....hmmm.*

I will admit that the Autobahn is, for the most part, nice looking and well built....but I just dont see that they're that much better than the freeways/expressways/parkways of North America. I remember reading somewhere that the concrete is layed down a ft or so deep for the construction of the Autobahn, whereas here in the N. America concrete is only poured down to a depth about half that, which leads to more cracking and repair requirements. Looking at these pics though, it seems that the Autobahn is very run down and in need of structural repairs in certain areas as well. The freeways in N. America are also much, much larger and in my opinion more impressive. The freeways in certain areas of N. America may need more repairs because they are much more heavily travelled that the Aubobahn in Germany. The autobahn in some way reminds me of the NY State Thruway.


----------



## kingsdl76

*Autobahn....hmmm.*

I will admit that the Autobahn is, for the most part, nice looking and well built....but I just dont see that they're that much better than the freeways/expressways/parkways of North America. I remember reading somewhere that the concrete is layed down a ft or so deep for the construction of the Autobahn, whereas here in the N. America concrete is only poured down to a depth about half that, which leads to more cracking and repair requirements. Looking at these pics though, it seems that the Autobahn is very run down and in need of structural repairs in certain areas as well. The freeways in N. America are also much, much larger and in my opinion more impressive. The freeways in certain areas of N. America may need more repairs because they are much more heavily travelled that the Aubobahn in Germany. The autobahn also covers a much smaller area than the highways of N. America. Germany is roughly the size of one of the larger states in the US.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Autobahn depth is about twice the American interstate depth. However, Autobahns do indeed need urgent repairs. 

I saw them construct a bicyle tunnel nearby, and the foundation used was about 3 ft deep. Seems a bit overdone to me.


----------



## Patrick

the german autobahn myth is really a fairytale one (which is based by the fact that aroiund i guess 2/5 have no speed limit). i guess people often think of well-maintened superhighways when hearing the word "autobahn"). then i always think of the 2+2 part of the A1 between Vulkaneifel and Wittlich, where many people prefer using the left lane (me too) although the right lane is free, because of the poor condition of the lane.
and considering the dimensions: there is just no need to have 6+6 super highways here. because the network is pretty extensive. and because of urban strucutres (suburbanization, public transport etc.) for example: to get from Rhein-Ruhr to Rhein-Main (ca. 200km), you can choose (ok, of course it depends a bit where you start and where you want to get) 3 highways which runs pretty parallel to each other, the A3 (3+3), the A61 (mostly 2+2) and the A45 (mostly 2+2).

EDIT: You said, there'd be nothing special, and when viewing the pics here, that's true. The special feeling just can't be showed with photos, it has to be felt. especially on sundays when trucks are generally banned from the autobahn. I once rode a 3+3 autobahn on a sunday early evening, riding at 170km/h (106mph) (my car's speedometer is limited to 180km/h). but guess what? I had to ride on the right lane, because of being the SLOWEST around for 2-3 minutes. ok, this situation be might very very rare (or I just ride the autobahn too rarely on sundays)  but that's the special thing you usually can only get on the german autobahn.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

6x6 lanes = 36 lanes of traffic :cheers:

No, but i think the major transport axis should be widened all the way to 2x3 lanes. The number of trucks in these western european countries is incredible. In Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany, the right lane is always packed with trucks

Lately i drove on the A1 from Osnabrück to Bremen, and i almost drove on the left lane all the way because of the trucks.


----------



## Patrick

i corrected the numbers 

my view is a bit limited as i live near the A3 with 3+3, near the A48 to Koblenz with mostly 3+3, the A61 and A45 with partly 2+3 (and around Trier where I study, there's not much traffic to legitimate 2x3 lanes). and so, i was a bit shocked when we drove to Bruxelles via Köln and Aachen, and then I saw what you mean. The 2+2 parts between Köln and Aachen where horrible, one truck behind another.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sometimes you see in the traffic info, they say "7km stau, und 12km stau für LKW".


----------



## TheCat

Heh in terms of pavement quality I have always admired the Dutch motorways, at least from what I've seen on pictures (I've never been there). They look as if every millimetre of the highway was manually inspected to make sure there are no cracks or even spots on them  And they even look good aesthetically, with the very extensive use of patterns and colours for different specialized road marking purposes, especially on regular roads (not motorways).


----------



## radi6404

Pavmentwise i have to say that German motorways always feel very hard and not smooth, Hungarian motorways feel smooth but are uneven, the asphalt doesn´t have holes but is quite uneven, new Serbian motorways are very ueven, don´t know why that is. Austrian motorways and roads generally feel great, when they are asphalted, concerete not feeling good. Bulgarian new roads and motorways feel extremly smooth and not uneven, the E 79 road Dupnica Kulata altough 7 years old feels so smooth and soft that you forget that you are travelling.


----------



## x-type

i think that each country still can envy to german motorways because of high level of back up things such as signalization, safety, a lot of emergency teams and those things


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TheCat said:


> They look as if every millimetre of the highway was manually inspected to make sure there are no cracks or even spots on them


In fact, they do. We have "weginspecteurs" (Road investigators), who just drive on the "autosnelweg" (motorway) to check the road for potholes and cracks. Our traffic jam problem might be going out of hand, but the quality of the road is very good. 

If something happened to the motorway in an accident where the pavement or streetfurniture is damaged, it is always repaired within a few hours. That's really good, since in some countries, that takes up weeks or longer. If they don't have time to repair it, they make time instantly, that's a really good thing.


----------



## OettingerCroat

german roads are german roads, these are amazing!  :applause:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some of the latest German road widening; the A1 near Osnabrück has been widened to 2x3 lanes, however, only for 12km causing huge traffic jams at the merge from 3 to 2 lanes. They really should widen it all the way to Bremen and even Hamburg.


----------



## Jeroen669

x-type said:


> khm, in Croatia we have a section on A6 where trucks go downhill about 20-30 km/h. why? because the difference in lattitude the motorway changes is about 500 m in about 10 km. you Netherlanders will never understand that :rofl:


Do we have to be jealous for that?


----------



## Nephasto

^^Well, not for the geometry of the motorway, but certainly by the beauty of the landscape! Hehe! 

500m in 10km... sounds familiar... Just try spanish A-15 going from S. Sebastian to Pamplona... you climg about 500m roughly in a 10km's stretch where the grade is a constant 5% (except in the tunnels, where it drops to some 3% or less). 
Guaranteed fun if you're pulling a trailor! Anyway, who wants to do more than 60km/h in a motorway! :colgate:


----------



## Energy2003

goschio said:


> There is a general speed limit of 90km/h for trucks on german autobahns. And 40km/h downhill seems ok since trucks are unable to stop at higher speed if it gets downhill. Just imagine there is a crash and all the trucks just crash into it.
> 
> Too many accidents with trucks involved have happened already. And most were horrible crashs with many people killed.They are the most dangerous part on german auotbahns.



But this can also happen in the CITY, and that´s dangerous

for example: 1987 Herborn

on highways there happens enough things when there´s fog or traffic jam ends


----------



## Energy2003

update for A96 Memmingen in direction Munich: 

photos from last Saturday:


----------



## radi6404

finally some good looking German aspahlt


----------



## keber

Of course. You know, why? 
It is NEW!:lol:


----------



## x-type

Nephasto said:


> I've been on dozens of motorways downhills with a 6% grade and I don't see trucks doing 40... more like 80.. some of them possibly 60 or something.


it's not dangerous if downhill lasts for 2-3 km, but if it lasts more then 5 km, then it can be disaster. brakes are very sensitive at downhills like that. you cannot imagine how easy can you burn them! i have more times felt smell of brakes on my car after such downhill, and imagine 25 tons heavy truck! driver mustn't leave brake at one moment, he'll in few seconds catch such acceleration because of inertion and won't be able to stop!

btw, what about uphill?! trucks cannot go faster uphill neither!


----------



## Nephasto

^^5 km's downhilll with 6% is alot I admit. But I bet that's not the case on that german motorway. 
But when that's the case, it's up to the truck drivers to take care of their brakes(depending on their load, etc...) ... I don't think that setting a really low speed limit is the solution.
Also, in those downhill there are usually emergency exits, to bge used by vehicles who lost their brakes. You've probably seen some of those already.

As for upphill, trucks go as fast as they can... unfortunatly, on those 6% upphill, some can't go any faster than 40. Still it's not as all vehicles tend to go slower upphill. Besides, it's much easier to brake when it's upphill than downhill.


----------



## Patrick

Elzer Berg (Mountain of Elz):

the average downhill grade is about 5%, and the lenght of that stretch is about 8km.

Before the cameras were installed in 1972, the average number of accidents was 350 per year. In the following years, the number of accidents decreased, in 1999 there were "only" 64 accidents, but with a lot more traffic (88.000 vehicles/day in 1999) than 1972 (in 1978, it was 35.000 near Montabaur (91.000 in 2005), only 1 exit away from Diez (and 2 from Limburg-Nord)).


----------



## Patrick

@ nephasto:

yes, there are radars for these 40km/h. Even a usual car will be flashed when it is faster than 40km/h, but the driver won't get anything unless he is faster than 100km/h. Many drivers don't know that, so they won't drive on the right lane if there's no truck on it (for example on sundays); there should be an additional sign saying that these 40km/h is only for heavy traffic.


----------



## Verso

^ Agreed. I still don't know, whether the far right lane (out of 3) on the Venice bypass is limited to 50 km/h just for trucks or also for cars. Therefore I never drive on it.


----------



## Nephasto

Patrick said:


> Elzer Berg (Mountain of Elz):
> 
> the average downhill grade is about 5%, and the lenght of that stretch is about 8km.


You've got me on that. 




Patrick said:


> yes, there are radars for these 40km/h. Even a usual car will be flashed when it is faster than 40km/h, but the driver won't get anything unless he is faster than 100km/h.


That sounds more reasonable. Still, even for trucks I find the 40 limit exagerated, but there's no point in discussing it any more.
But I'm 100% in favour of radars to enforce the limit speed (whichever they are) on those dangerous points of the motorways. kay:

And they are most certainly effective in reducing casualties.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've taken pics of the A1 Cloppenburg - Bremen - Hamburg, the A261 near Hamburg and the A7 Hamburg - Flensburg. I'll hope to upload them later this evening.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Cloppenburg - Bremen - Buchholzer Dreieck (Hamburg)*










This serie starts halfway between Osnabrück and Bremen, and goes by Bremen, a large port city of 600.000 inhabitants. The A1 near Bremen has 2x3 lanes, and some very old signs can be seen. It has an automated traffic control over 43 kilometers. After Bremen, we head on to Hamburg, where the A1 comes extremely busy, being "_stockender Verkehr_" (Queueing traffic) over much of the 80km between the two cities. 

*To the pictures (114 pics)*


----------



## Patrick

they really should widen the A1 atleat between Bremen and Hamburg to 3 lines each dir.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, obviously, it's very busy, with one accident, and the road is jammed for a long distance. The A7 is very busy too, they should widen that to 2x3 lanes between AD Bordesholm and Hamburg-Schnelsen-Nord and 2x4 lanes in Hamburg. The A23 is often clogged up because they can't merge into the busy A7. I'll show some pics of this road too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

2 pics of the Kohlbrandbrücke today. One of the rare moments it wasn't raining, i drove 6 hours in rain.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> The first A-Model PPP contract to widen and operate the heavily congested A8 between Augsburg and Munich in southern Germany is being carried out by the Autobahnplus consortium. The A8 forms part of Germany’s national autobahn network, which charges a distance-based truck-toll for all commercial vehicles of 12tonnes or more. Steer Davies Gleave in partnership with the German transport consultancy Beratergruppe Verkehr Umwelt (BVU), provided Traffic and Revenue advice to support the consortium bid. The A8 is the first of its kind to be given the go-head in Germany. Last year the German Federal Government launched a series of pilot projects to evaluate the suitability of PPP contracts to procure motorway widening. These involve the design and construction of additional lanes as well as the maintenance and operation of the extended section of road for 30 years. In addition to an upfront contribution towards construction costs the concessionaire is provided with a shadow toll through the existing monthly truck-toll revenue.


Finally, the rest of the A8 between Karlsruhe and Salzburg needs widening too.


----------



## GNU

Damn, just look at those Chemtrails in the sky hno: (typical grid pattern)
Anyways, the part between Karlsruhe and Basel needs to be widened to 3 lanes each side aswell.
Right now there are still some parts there which have been built in the 30s (if I remember correctly) which makes for a bumpy ride.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think the A5 between Karlsruhe and Basel still has it actual 30's pavement, but yes, it's a bumpy ride.


----------



## mgk920

Nephasto said:


> ^^5 km's downhilll with 6% is alot I admit. But I bet that's not the case on that german motorway.
> But when that's the case, it's up to the truck drivers to take care of their brakes(depending on their load, etc...) ... I don't think that setting a really low speed limit is the solution.
> Also, in those downhill there are usually emergency exits, to bge used by vehicles who lost their brakes. You've probably seen some of those already.
> 
> As for upphill, trucks go as fast as they can... unfortunatly, on those 6% upphill, some can't go any faster than 40. Still it's not as all vehicles tend to go slower upphill. Besides, it's much easier to brake when it's upphill than downhill.


That's what the lower gears are for. Let cylinder compression in the engine slow you down and allow you to maintain control - the waste heat is easily and safely dissipated through the radiator (in an automatic transmission car, those are the 'L1', 'L2', etc settings).

Also, inside the Eisenhower Tunnel (I-70 in Colorado, USA - the highest point on the I-system), there are weigh-in-motion scales and radars that feed into computer-controlled signs in the tunnel that tells truck/lorry drivers to "GEAR DOWN TO (X speed)", sometimes as slow as (about 20 km/h), this in order to safely descend the very loooooong 6% grades on either end of it. There are also emergency escape ramps in case that fails.

Mike


----------



## mgk920

Chriszwolle said:


> *A1 Cloppenburg - Bremen - Buchholzer Dreieck (Hamburg)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This serie starts halfway between Osnabrück and Bremen, and goes by Bremen, a large port city of 600.000 inhabitants. The A1 near Bremen has 2x3 lanes, and some very old signs can be seen. It has an automated traffic control over 43 kilometers. After Bremen, we head on to Hamburg, where the A1 comes extremely busy, being "_stockender Verkehr_" (Queueing traffic) over much of the 80km between the two cities.
> 
> *To the pictures (114 pics)*


Interesting as always!

:cheers1:

But I do wonder how well that bus in image #33 would travel into primarily English-speaking areas....

:wtf:

:dunno: 

:runaway: 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:rofl:

Mike


----------



## Verso

Fucker! :rofl:

Did you know there was a town in Austria (Carinthia) called Fucking? Brits keep stealing the town-limit sign. :lol:

Nice pictures, and... crazy traffic. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Heheh


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Ze germans are dirty.


----------



## Jeroen669

How the hell do you get that name? :nuts: And they put it on all their buses. :lol:


----------



## Patrick

this remains me to a truck that i saw on a dutch autosnelweg near venlo 










Damen Transport means sth like "carriage of ladies" in german. did i found out some dutch human trafficking with ladies?


----------



## RawLee

Patrick said:


> Damen Transport means sth like "carriage of ladies" in german. did i found out some dutch human trafficking with ladies?


People usually dont notice what is in front of their noses...maybe they're fooling the police this way


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hmmm, Damen is not a usual Dutch word...


----------



## Patrick

I googled for it and found out that it's the name of the owner or founder. Wim Damen. But the funny thing again is, that they carriage livestock in reality (Veetransport)...(oh, and Helden on the blue sign means "heroes" in german. so this truck brings the ladies to the heroes? )

and to get to the topic, some older pics I made in april:

A5 near Frankfurt

















and A648 again


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Hamburg - Flensburg*
*A7 Dreieck Hamburg-Südwest - Hamburg - Neumünster - Rendsburg - Schleswig - Flensburg - Grenzübergang Ellund (DK)*









Time to show some pics from the far north of Germany. We start from the A261 connection, through the harbor of Hamburg, where the container ships almost unload their containers on the emergency lanes. Through the Elbetunnel we ride through the 2nd city of Germany, and it stays busy until most Kiel traffic exits at interchange Bordesholm. There was a 30km queue in the opposite direction; from Hensted-Ulzburg until the Elbetunnel. We cross the Nord-Ostseekanal near Rendsburg, with high electricity pylons next to it. From there, we travel all the way to the Danish border.

*A7 Hamburg - Flensburg: 116 pics*


----------



## Patrick

how many lanes has the elbtunnel? 2+2+2+2?

i think i would find it rather boring to drive through northern germany as it is all so flat there 

the wechselwegweiser (variable signs) there look much better than the ones in munich (A99)


----------



## GNU

Did we have that already?

New A113 in Berlin:


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

Man, this A113 looks like a typical urban freeway in the USA. Concrete pavement, soundproof wall, crash barrier and even the entrance ramp - all look too much American too me :down:


----------



## [email protected]

Nephasto said:


> 500m in 10km... sounds familiar... Just try spanish A-15 going from S. Sebastian to Pamplona... you climg about 500m roughly in a 10km's stretch where the grade is a constant 5% (except in the tunnels, where it drops to some 3% or less).


Yes you're right, the grade of 5% is not extraordinary and I guess you can find examples in Germany as well...

Other example with 7%, the A89 (previously A72) in France, between St Etienne et Clermont-Ferrand:
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-035-Souternon-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-040-St-Marcel-d'Urfe-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-046-Ech4-Noiretable-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-047-Les-Sucheres-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-054-Thiers-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-055-Thiers-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-057-Thiers-B-20040703-JRL.jpg

The A51 near Grenoble:
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5950/20jf6.jpg

Or the A75 with 7,5%:
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/Pasdelescalette.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/Pasdelescaleette4JPG.jpg
http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/Pasdelescalette5.jpg


----------



## Jeroen669

This is a german thread, not a French one. 

That A113 in Berlin looks awesome; completely new and 6 lanes through urban area. What's the limit there? 100?



Patrick said:


> oh, and Helden on the blue sign means "heroes" in german. so this truck brings the ladies to the heroes?


Helden also means "heroes' in Dutch. Btw, did you know about the village near Helden? It's called 'America'. 

We're all living in America, ist wunderbar, ist wunderbar


----------



## goschio

The A113 in Berlin looks awesome. Love the bright concrete.


----------



## radi6404

GNU said:


> Did we have that already?
> 
> New A113 in Berlin:


this must be the ugliest motorway I have ever seen by far, oh my god and it´s even new, it looks like a 50 years old runway in Albania (oh I forgot, even they have very new blackasphalt well marked runways), so it´s just very ugly and it surely is very unconfortable to drive on.


----------



## radi6404

[email protected] said:


> Yes you're right, the grade of 5% is not extraordinary and I guess you can find examples in Germany as well...
> 
> Other example with 7%, the A89 (previously A72) in France, between St Etienne et Clermont-Ferrand:
> http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-035-Souternon-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
> http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-040-St-Marcel-d'Urfe-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
> http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-046-Ech4-Noiretable-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
> http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-047-Les-Sucheres-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
> http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-054-Thiers-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
> http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-055-Thiers-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
> http://wikisara.free.fr/wikisara/images/A72-057-Thiers-B-20040703-JRL.jpg
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> This one looks very good though


----------



## Jeroen669

I'm sure if you're a daily commuter on that french A75 you would love to be if it was something like this A113. At least this Berlin motorway looks very well designed.


----------



## Kampflamm

Mmm, it looks so smooth, like a baby's bottom. Maybe someday I'll get a bed made out of Autobahn concrete.


----------



## radi6404

Kampflamm said:


> Mmm, it looks so smooth, like a baby's bottom. Maybe someday I'll get a bed made out of Autobahn concrete.


Man, just look how ugly it is, here´s a new beautiful stretch of bulgarian Trakya motorway










this surely is smooth and it also looks beautiful


----------



## Kampflamm

Go to bed, boy. We've been building Autobahns for centuries.

Zat Bulgarian Autobahn für Anfänger looks quite cheap, like somebody just slapped some dark grey paint on an old stretch of motorway. Nein danke!


----------



## radi6404

Kampflamm said:


> Go to bed, boy. We've been building Autobahns for centuries.
> 
> Zat Bulgarian Autobahn für Anfänger looks quite cheap, like somebody just slapped some dark grey paint on an old stretch of motorway. Nein danke!


Just to know it you fool, this motorway was build by protuguese companies.


----------



## Kampflamm

And you're proud of that? When I'm driving on one of those new concrete Autobahns, I sometimes just stop on the shoulder, get out and pet the motorway. It's like touching the face of God.


----------



## Rohne

radi6404 said:


> Just to know it you fool, this motorway was build by protuguese companies.


Net mal self builden könnt ihr, and then auch noch such shit looking teil of dark grey coloured feldweg.


----------



## Verso

radi6404 said:


> Just to know it *you fool*, this motorway was build by protuguese companies.


radi6404 ©


----------



## radi6404

Rohne said:


> Net mal self builden könnt ihr, and then auch noch such shit looking teil of dark grey coloured feldweg.


struma motorway was bulgarian makedonian partnership! 
Ihr seit doch so witzig, ihr habt die schlechtesten Autobahnen europas und redet über andere.


----------



## RawLee

radi6404 said:


> struma motorway was bulgarian makedonian partnership!
> Ihr seit doch so witzig, ihr habt die schlechtesten Autobahnen europas und redet über andere.


My rusty german tells me that that sentence wasnt really friendly and nice.


----------



## Kampflamm

radi6404 said:


> Ihr seit doch so witzig, ihr habt die schlechtesten Autobahnen europas und redet über andere.


Bwahahaha! You're quite ze comedian, aren't you?


----------



## radi6404

RawLee said:


> My rusty german tells me that that sentence wasnt really friendly and nice.


so wren´t the rasist sentences from the previous people who posted shit about blgarian motorways and said "kissing german motorway pavment is like kissing the face of god."


----------



## Kampflamm

radi6404 said:
 

> kissing german motorway pavment is like kissing the face of god.


Finally you got it!


----------



## RawLee

radi6404 said:


> so wren´t the rasist sentences from the previous people who posted shit about blgarian motorways and said kissing german motorway pavment is like kissing the face of god.


I dont kiss pavement(I have a gf to kiss) and dont look at it(same reason). All it matters to me is that motorways are u/c,and they form a good system that I can use.


----------



## radi6404

RawLee said:


> I dont kiss pavement(I have a gf to kiss) and dont look at it(same reason). All it matters to me is that motorways are u/c,and they form a good system that I can use.


If there aren´t aviable good looking girls here, aktually I have a strange taste but there are too few or no skinny girls here in Blagoevgrad and that really puts me down.


----------



## Verso

You're turning gay, and there's no way back.


----------



## Nephasto

radi6404 said:


> Just to know it you fool, this motorway was build by protuguese companies.


:cheer: 
I wouldn't mind going to work to Bulgaria with a portuguese company when I finish my degree next year! 
And it does in fact look good.

But those german autobahns look very good too. And ok, you may find concrete uglier than asphalt (I do too), they are certainly fantastic autobahnen with great pavements(made of concrete)! It may not look as good to you, but it's grat anyway.
And the concrete pavement of that new autobahn in berlin looks great!




Kampflamm said:


> When I'm driving on one of those new concrete Autobahns, I sometimes just stop on the shoulder, get out and pet the motorway. It's like touching the face of God.


:rofl: :hilarious :cheers:


----------



## taiwanesedrummer36

Kampflamm said:


> Mmm, it looks so smooth, like a baby's bottom. Maybe someday I'll get a bed made out of Autobahn concrete.


I love it! I wish the Interstate system was that great, with the great concrete, modern ITS, and much better designed (traffic-wise and architecturally-wise).


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

^^ I agree with everything except the concrete  What American interstates lack is European road marking and European traffic signs.


----------



## goschio

radi6404 said:


> Man, just look how ugly it is, here´s a new beautiful stretch of bulgarian Trakya motorway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this surely is smooth and it also looks beautiful


Looks ugly. Too black IMO.


----------



## radi6404

no it´s not


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> radi6404 ©


----------



## Patrick

ähm, the emergency lane there on radi's picture is just as narrow as here where this thread belongs to.


----------



## Verso

Ahaha Chris, that was really good, the best part is there's no full-stop in the whole sentence. :lol: Reminded me of Portugl too. :lol: (radi - Rodin xD)


----------



## Kampflamm

LOL, _that_ is radi?


----------



## Verso

Yep; Samantha was made up, radi is real. :lol:


----------



## Rebasepoiss

To bring this thread back into the subject:


----------



## Jeroen669

Crazy maniacs. I don't mind the autobahn being limitless, but drivers like these are making it so damn unsafe.


----------



## Patrick

as long as drivers follow the lane discipline and faster drivers don't push the slower in the same lane and keeps enough distance while the slower overtakes someone else, it is really enjoyable. my daily experiences (A3/A48, for going to work) at the moment are ok, racers are very rare, and lane discipline is mostly followed (sometimes somebody is in the middle lane although right lane is free, so that I have to swtch two lanes to overtake if I can, and then of course, switch two lanes again to the right if free). of course, black sheeps are everywhere, it is unavoidable in the whole word


----------



## Jeroen669

There only have to be a little wind to make driving with such speeds (250-300km/h?) a disaster. I think it's unavoidable for Germany anyway to settle a general speed limit on the autobahnen in the (far) future.


----------



## RawLee

Jeroen669 said:


> There only have to be a little wind to make driving with such speeds (250-300km/h?) a disaster. I think it's unavoidable for Germany anyway to settle a general speed limit on the autobahnen in the (far) future.


This is how an accident with such speed looks like:
















Guess the 2 cars! Cant? They were a Lamborghini and a Porsche,racing into Budapest.


----------



## radi6404

Jeroen669 said:


> There only have to be a little wind to make driving with such speeds (250-300km/h?) a disaster. I think it's unavoidable for Germany anyway to settle a general speed limit on the autobahnen in the (far) future.


the speed limits are the Autobahns themself, unless you are in A S class where you don´t feel the road you wont drive so fast as the road gets very rough (like much german autobahns pavment is) so that wont please you a long time. And don´t blame me now, you have to admit that many German Autobahns have rough pavment.


----------



## Kampflamm

You are unbelievable. I doubt you've even been to Germany.


----------



## radi6404

Kampflamm said:


> You are unbelievable. I doubt you've even been to Germany.


Man, you´re laughable, I lived in Germany for 10 years you laughable fool, I returned to bulgaria to study at the American University in Bulgaria, I might always go back though.


----------



## Nephasto

radi6404 said:


> you wont drive so fast as the road gets very rough (like much german autobahns pavment is)



:hilarious


----------



## x-type

radi6404 said:


> I might always go back though.


Germans are mad about getting one more Balkaner, they cannot wait you to appear there


----------



## Kampflamm

radi6404 said:


> Man, you´re laughable, I lived in Germany for 10 years you laughable fool, I returned to bulgaria to study at the American University in Bulgaria, I might always go back though.


Alright...but have you ever driven on ze Autobahn? I kind of doubt that.


----------



## radi6404

Kampflamm said:


> Alright...but have you ever driven on ze Autobahn? I kind of doubt that.


Just on Baden-Württenberg and Byern ones


----------



## Rohne

This Autobahn in the video is the A81 Stuttgart - Singen. From Tuningen to Geisingen, and then from Geisingen back over Tuningen and Herrenberg to Stuttgart.


----------



## radi6404

Rohne said:


> This Autobahn in the video is the A81 Stuttgart - Singen. From Tuningen to Geisingen, and then from Geisingen back over Tuningen and Herrenberg to Stuttgart.


Really, I remember that Autobahn from this spring and it was very awful, it was very bumpy and not nice to drive on. The only really awesome Autobahn i´ve driven on in Germany was the A94, the new stretch, really good, they are rehabilitating the A8 and lay asphalt on it, so it probably will get quite good.


----------



## goschio

Jeroen669 said:


> There only have to be a little wind to make driving with such speeds (250-300km/h?) a disaster. I think it's unavoidable for Germany anyway to settle a general speed limit on the autobahnen in the (far) future.


Hope not.


----------



## x-type

can somebody explain that toll system? as far as i know it's the same as this one in Austria for LKW, which is older than German so i donßt think what is so new


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The German LKW-Maut works as the following;

Each truck require an onboard communicator, that communicates with portals over the motorway, which are placed on the road on a regular base. 
They track which road you take, and you pay for each kilometer a truck drive. This is not very cheap; 13,5 cents per kilometer. 

There is also the possibility to pay at terminals in gas stations, for those who haven't got an OBU (On Board Unit). 

The police can wireless check if you pay, without having to stop a truck. 

The revenues are about 3 billion euro's, but the operating costs of the system is 660 million euro's, about 22% of the revenue.


----------



## Max BGF

Sure, the 660 Mio are just operating costs, i.e. without depreciation and amortization for the quite expensive development?

Take also into account that stopping and starting costs time and labor without paying for it.


----------



## Verso

snupix said:


> In these situations, I overtake on the left lane because it's much more fun (changing the two lanes) than just proceeding straight...


:lol: Well, I do that, but the motorway is usually packed on the left and empty on the right side, so that's just easier.


----------



## TheCat

Max BGF said:


> Not to forget our newest donation to the mobile world called Toll Collect. Against stopping at Damned Toll stations!


We've had a similar system on the 407 ETR in Toronto for a long time. If you have a transponder (i.e. OBU) it works the same way, but if you don't, a picture of your license plate is taken, and you get mailed the bill. A recently constructed highway in Israel uses the same technology, as do some other highways around the world, as far as I know.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm not sure about privacy issues regarding the toll collect system. The government can easily expand the system to cars, and track everyone's routes.


----------



## TheCat

Chriszwolle said:


> I'm not sure about privacy issues regarding the toll collect system. The government can easily expand the system to cars, and track everyone's routes.


Are you referring to my post, or the original discussion? The toll on the 407 ETR applies to everyone, including cars, although there are different rates. But all highways here are toll-free, except for the 407.


----------



## x-type

Chriszwolle said:


> The German LKW-Maut works as the following;
> 
> Each truck require an onboard communicator, that communicates with portals over the motorway, which are placed on the road on a regular base.
> They track which road you take, and you pay for each kilometer a truck drive. This is not very cheap; 13,5 cents per kilometer.
> 
> There is also the possibility to pay at terminals in gas stations, for those who haven't got an OBU (On Board Unit).
> 
> The police can wireless check if you pay, without having to stop a truck.
> 
> The revenues are about 3 billion euro's, but the operating costs of the system is 660 million euro's, about 22% of the revenue.


well, that was my point. Austria had that system before Germany afaik. so i donßt see a reason to call it the newest german donation to the mobile world.


----------



## Rohne

The German and Austrian system are different.
The Austrian works with Microwaves while the German system is much more complicated and uses GPS.


----------



## x-type

a so!


----------



## keber

You can compare Austrian toll system, which is microwave-based, to most electronic toll systems in Europe (in your case ENP in Croatia, just more sophisticated). I think Czechs have almost identical system for trucks.
German GPS&GSM-based system has privacy issues, but it tends to be future universal European toll system. Probably more advanced and less expensive to maintain (yes, both is possible), but it will still take quite long time to be satisfactory implemented.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New bridge opened near Stralsund (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern). The longest bridge of Germany!

It connects Stralsund with the island Rügen.










127m high pylon.


----------



## Verso

^^ Wow, I had no idea there was a bridge to Rügen under construction! Now bird flu can spread easier.


----------



## goschio

Its a very nice bridge but no Autobahn. Just Bundesstrasse with 3 lanes. The middle lane can be used in either direction depending on the traffic.

Some more pics:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder how they build it so cheap. 

A 4km tunnel would cost here like 2 - 3 billion euro's.


----------



## Max BGF

Looks nice and adequately sized. Quite a few pillars though - the point I don´t like with that bridge.


----------



## x-type

why is the new bridge built while there exists a bridge allready? what is the destiny of the old one?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That old object is the "Rügendamm", an outdated and overcrowded road, which causes a lot of traffic jams during the holiday season.


----------



## x-type

a so. i see that itßs quite rough, especially this first part (where new bridge has a pylon)


----------



## Verso

x-type said:


> a so. i see that it*ß*s quite rough, especially this first part (where new bridge has a pylon)


I recommend not pressing the "apostrophe" at all.


----------



## x-type

i'll (ißll) seriously consider about it


----------



## pmaciej7

I know this is not a right thread, but i've got a small question: Where can i get some pictures of this famous bulgarian Struma motorway? This must be a gift from another galaxy, if it's better than A113 in Berlin? I would like to see that miracle. I'm serious.


----------



## x-type

you have thread about Bulgarian motorways


----------



## wyqtor

^^Not only that, but it's probably the only motorway on this forum with a separate thread dedicated to it alone.


----------



## pmaciej7

wyqtor said:


> ^^Not only that, but it's probably the only motorway on this forum with a separate thread dedicated to it alone.


Visit polish subforum.

SkyscraperCity > European Forums > Forum Polskich Wieżowców > Infrastruktura i Technologia. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=638

Every motorway has it's own thread, main ones have 3 or 4 threads divided by parts of motorway. Sometimes even one exit has it's own thread.


----------



## Verso

^ Well yeah, but this is an intl. subforum. You know what a mess it would be if every motorway in this world had its own thread? Especially such short motorways as Struma. I don't have problems with the thread about the Trans-Canada Highway.


----------



## M.Schwerdtner

why the holland guy is angry to pushern behind him??? ... Die Autbobahn ist kein Kinderspielplatz ... keep watching ur mirrors and change ur lane!! then u wont get pushed by others ... but the most slowly cars on the autobahn are netherlands, i dont knwo why, but they are the most cars wich i need to push, the others change the lane, and i also change the lane if i see a fast car behind me wich is coming fast closer, i dont have any problem with them. 

oh and ... Stuma = :down: ... i think for horses should be a "trampelpfad" enough ^^


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Die Autbobahn ist kein Kinderspielplatz


Yup, that's true, but if i drive 140km/h and overtake a truck, i won't change a lane until i am finished overtaking. I'm not getting stuck behind a truck, because some BMW driver wants to show how small his dick is.


----------



## Jeroen669

M.Schwerdtner said:


> but the most slowly cars on the autobahn are netherlands, i dont knwo why, but they are the most cars wich i need to push, the others change the lane, and i also change the lane if i see a fast car behind me wich is coming fast closer, i dont have any problem with them.


The autobahn is not all yours (or other audi/bmw etc. drivers). I hate people pushing on my bumper, there's no good reason to do that. Keep your distance, wait untill the slower driver goes back right, than there's no need to push (or signal), isn't it?


----------



## Patrick

it is like very often, the autobahn polarizes the people. just keep cool, follow the rules, don't push where you don't need to. and enjoy driving like i do  I think a discussion will be senseless as you're not meeting your "real opponent". The people here don't seem to be left lane hookers and are reasonalbe drivers, so M. Schwerdtner, there's no need to offend them.


----------



## Kampflamm

The SPD wants to introduce a 130km/h speed limit. :bash:


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

M.Schwerdtner said:


> but the most slowly cars on the autobahn are netherlands


^^ Hehe, I also noticed the same :lol: Some hollanders may slowly overtake several cars without giving a thought that someone might want to drive faster than them.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Kampflamm said:


> The SPD wants to introduce a 130km/h speed limit. :bash:


Didn't the green party wanted that? And all of their voters ran away?


----------



## goschio

CDU already opposed the speed limit. Its not gonna happen. And no SPD minister wants to fight for something like a speed limit. Its all politics.

Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger!


----------



## Teal

Deutsche Autobahnen sind die beste!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Patrick

Kampflamm said:


> The SPD wants to introduce a 130km/h speed limit. :bash:


yes, it is for the 3248263248th time that someone wants to...


----------



## Patrick

EDIT: some trouble with picture linking...


----------



## kajetanek

its my fotorelation A7 and A5,A6
my photos in posts: 201, 202 and 206

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=209457&page=11


----------



## radi6404

Teal said:


> Deutsche Autobahnen sind die beste!!!!!!!!!!


this sentence is not even gramaticaly right, not that the it doesn´t make sence, too


----------



## Patrick

radi6404 said:


> this sentence is not even gramaticaly right, not that the it doesn´t make sence, too


and that one is not either (but I don't say that mine here is :tongue

of course it can make sence, if his most important reason is legal fast and almost save driving the same time. just like i do. of course for example the A3 between Köln and Frankfurt is not perfect considering smoothness, but I don't care when driving fast as long I don't bump every few seconds like on some old parts of the A48 or A1 between Koblenz and Trier.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's sense.

However, to me, a lot of German Autobahnen are outdated when it comes to geometry. Way too small cloverleafs, low speed exits, and short on and offramps or merging lanes. 

But then again, maybe we are spoiled in the Netherlands with luxury-length merging lanes.


----------



## TheCat

^^ I am curious, what are the minimum requirements for acceleration/deceleration lane lengths in Germany and all throughout Europe? According to Wikipedia, in Ontario the minimum is 150 m on 400-series highways, although I think they are usually significantly longer in many areas.

EDIT: Just found out that in the Netherlands it's 350 m apparently. That's really impressive.


----------



## radi6404

Patrick said:


> and that one is not either (but I don't say that mine here is :tongue
> 
> of course it can make sence, if his most important reason is legal fast and almost save driving the same time. just like i do. of course for example the A3 between Köln and Frankfurt is not perfect considering smoothness, but I don't care when driving fast as long I don't bump every few seconds like on some old parts of the A48 or A1 between Koblenz and Trier.


But he´s German and havn´t even written
Deutsche Autobahnen sind die beste*n*

how can that happen


----------



## Brisbaner21

Great looking Autobahns!


----------



## Rohne

Acceleration/decelaration lanes are 250m long in Germany. Exceptions are Reichsautobahn sections which haven't been upgradet yet or in some urban areas where there are many exits on a short distance and place is limited (i.e. A100 in Berlin).


----------



## Energy2003

1.) the sentence is nearly correct: "Deutsche Autobahnen sind die Besten"

2.) better a low speed exit than no exit 

... this soon will also come in austria because we need more exits and entries but don´t have everywhere enough space for them like we build it 20 years ago ... 


regards


----------



## keber

Chriszwolle said:


> But then again, maybe we are spoiled in the Netherlands with luxury-length merging lanes.


:yes:


----------



## LtBk

Alex Von Königsberg said:


> ^^ Hehe, I also noticed the same :lol: Some hollanders may slowly overtake several cars without giving a thought that someone might want to drive faster than them.


At least they not American drivers. If they were, they more likely to drive at or below the limit and stay there, even if they pissing everyone else behind them or they not passing anybody on a empty freeway.


----------



## radi6404

Energy2003 said:


> 1.) the sentence is nearly correct: "Deutsche Autobahnen sind die Besten"
> 
> 2.) better a low speed exit than no exit
> 
> ... this soon will also come in austria because we need more exits and entries but don´t have everywhere enough space for them like we build it 20 years ago ...
> 
> 
> regards


He said Die beste, not die besten which is correct, so no that´s not correct. Anyway doesn´t matter really.


----------



## Paddington

The Germans take their expressways quite seriously. :runaway:


----------



## LT1550

^^ rather the people who live around Germany :lol:


----------



## Patrick

Rohne said:


> Acceleration/decelaration lanes are 250m long in Germany. Exceptions are Reichsautobahn sections which haven't been upgradet yet or in some urban areas where there are many exits on a short distance and place is limited (i.e. A100 in Berlin).


A5 between Gießen and Hattenbach (exit 6: Homberg (Ohm) )








other direction








www.rippachtal.de

there are other examples of course, e.g. exit 10 on A48 westbound, Koblenz-Nord, where the deceleration lane begins a few meters in front of the announcement sign 1000 meters before the exit comes.


----------



## radi6404

Patrick said:


> A5 between Gießen and Hattenbach (exit 6: Homberg (Ohm) )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> other direction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rippachtal.de


and they dissed the the narrowest exit of the Struma motroway


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The difference is that the Struma is brand new, and this one is likely over 40 years old, so you can't compare. This German exit (like many others) stinks in geometry nowadays by the way. 

Though they don't seem to give it a high priority, such exits would be out of the question in the Netherlands.


----------



## rick1016

It looks in those pictures like the ramp veers off as soon as it cuts off from the freeway. It that correct? Seems kind of quick.


----------



## radi6404

the asphalt on this Autobahn looks really bad, it surely isn´t nice to drive there. I think they need to repair it because it sucks. Lots of Aubotahns are being repaired, si this one being repaired, too?


----------



## Patrick

rick1016 said:


> It looks in those pictures like the ramp veers off as soon as it cuts off from the freeway. It that correct? Seems kind of quick.


unfortunately, my internet is so slow that google maps doesn't work properly here. maybe someone can take a screenshot of this exit there? but i don't know if it is in high-res. the exit is between Bernsfeld and Mücke, east of Gießen, north of Frankfurt.



afaik they are currently adding the emergency lanes on this section. about repairing i don't know. but it wouldn't make sense if they didn't. rohne may know more.


----------



## E2rdEm

Patrick said:


> unfortunately, my internet is so slow that google maps doesn't work properly here. maybe someone can take a screenshot of this exit there?


Here you are:


Looks like a classic example of exit built in 1930's and never rebuilt since. Only the acceleration/decelaration lanes in one direction were added - the other direction is blocked by a narrow bridge... I'd also expect that under the asphalt one would find old concrete paving...

Seems like this autobahn is waiting for the planned upgrade to 2x3...?


----------



## TheCat

Oh wow that entrance lane looks almost non-existent, it looks like the acceleration strip just joins the motorway at an almost 90-degree angle, without a significant length running parallel to the motorway. I don't see how one can join the motorway if one is already going at a high speed but there is a car in the right lane.

The exit is also short, reminds me of some exits I've seen on 2-lane roads in Ontario. Wouldn't you need to start decelerating on the motorway itself, before merging into the exit?

These pictures are quite surprising. What is the speed limit (if any) on that stretch of road?


----------



## thun

Both ramps on the right are pretty short, yes. Seems that they've added the exit afterwards and didn't want to rebuild the bridge. 

But that's the only unusual thing of it, the angle the ramps are joining the motorway are normal this way and no problem to drive (normally, you don't go faster than 130kph on the right lane).
Btw, the acceleration lane is one of the very few places on German roads where it is allowed to overtake on the right lane. So, you can overtake a truck or a slow driving car (on the right lane) before entering the motorway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

LPG is said to be the most environment-friendly, however the fuel consumption is much higher than a diesel car, and after about 200.000 kilometers, your car is about done, diesel engines last much longer, and the maintenance is more expensive with LPG. My dad drives LPG, but he said never again.


----------



## Svartmetall

Chriszwolle said:


> LPG is said to be the most environment-friendly, however the fuel consumption is much higher than a diesel car, and after about 200.000 kilometers, your car is about done, diesel engines last much longer, and the maintenance is more expensive with LPG. My dad drives LPG, but he said never again.


Isn't there also an issue of supply of LPG fuel in certain countries? I can't recall seeing ANY LPG in the UK at all though (other than natural gas buses). LPG is present at most petrol stations in New Zealand though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I differs from country to country, in the Netherlands and France, it's widely distributed, but poor in Germany and Spain and so on. 

In the Netherlands, LPG fuel stations are not allowed in urban areas.


----------



## Raf11

Chriszwolle said:


> LPG is said to be the most environment-friendly, however the fuel consumption is much higher than a diesel car, and after about 200.000 kilometers, your car is about done, diesel engines last much longer, and the maintenance is more expensive with LPG. My dad drives LPG, but he said never again.


Yes, I know it very well. I think next will be nice turbo-diesel.

But try to imagine what my wallet feels when it's only half of price of gasoline 

It's not a new car, so I can survive it by now.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah i know what you are talking about, you have a full tank of gas for € 25. 

But the taxes for owning a LPG-car are very high in the Netherlands, even higher than Diesel.


----------



## goschio

thun said:


> To say it exactly: In Germany, there is no general speed limit for all roads that are build like Autobahnen (2x2 or better) unless signs say something else. Therefore, on a Gelbe Autobahn is the same situation than on a normal Autobahn.


Are you sure? A gelbe Autobahn is still a Bundesstrasse just with more lanes. There can be traffic lights and all kind of stuff on it. I always assumed its 100km\h unless otherwise stated.


----------



## Verso

That was my assumption as well, after all, "Gelbe Autobahnen" aren't really equipped with the Autobahn sign, which is a precondition to be allowed to drive as fast as you wish.


----------



## Patrick

hm...i have never seen a traffic light on a four-laned bundesstraße with this sign: (btw: i don't call it gelbe autobahn in everyday language, i say schnellstraße)








or i haven`t seen a traffic light unless this sign comes:









ps: and after reading a wikipedia-article, a schnellstraße is a autobahn-like bundesstraße with no general speed limit, but kraftfahrstraßen (the signs i posted above are referring to them) with one lane per dir have a 100km/h limit, with two or more lanes and separated carriageways (>schnellstraße), they are generally unlimited unless signs say something different. sometimes, even landstraßen are autobahn-like (L3004 in frankfurt and L124 in köln)


----------



## Verso

I wouldn't believe Wikipedia too much; I think roads equipped with the above sign, have a general speed limit of 100 km/h.


----------



## Patrick

ok, let's take a look in the Straßenverkehrsordnung ("traffic rules")

http://www.verkehrsportal.de/stvo/stvo_03.php


> §3 Geschwindigkeit
> 
> (3)
> Die zulässige Höchstgeschwindigkeit beträgt auch unter günstigsten Umständen
> - 1. innerhalb geschlossener Ortschaften für alle Kraftfahrzeuge ... 50 km/h,
> - 2. außerhalb geschlossener Ortschaften
> - - 1. für Kraftfahrzeuge mit einem zulässigen Gesamtgewicht über 3,5 t bis 7,5 t, ausgenommen Personenkraftwagen, für Personenkraftwagen mit Anhänger, für Lastkraftwagen und Wohnmobile jeweils bis zu einem zulässigen Gesamtgewicht von 3,5 t mit Anhänger sowie für Kraftomnibusse, auch mit Gepäckanhänger ... 80 km/h,
> - - 2. für Kraftfahrzeuge mit einem zulässigen Gesamtgewicht über 7,5 t, für alle Kraftfahrzeuge mit Anhänger, ausgenommen Personenkraftwagen, Lastkraftwagen und Wohnmobile jeweils bis zu einem zulässigen Gesamtgewicht von 3,5 t, sowie für Kraftomnibusse mit Fahrgästen, für die keine Sitzplätze mehr zur Verfügung stehen, ... 60 km/h,
> - - 3. für Personenkraftwagen sowie für andere Kraftfahrzeuge mit einem zulässigen Gesamtgewicht bis 3,5 t ... 100km/h.
> 
> Diese _*Geschwindigkeitsbeschränkung gilt nicht* auf Autobahnen (Zeichen 330) sowie *auf anderen Straßen mit Fahrbahnen für eine Richtung, die durch Mittelstreifen oder sonstige bauliche Einrichtungen getrennt sind.*_ Sie gilt ferner nicht auf Straßen, die mindestens zwei durch Fahrstreifenbegrenzung (Zeichen 295) oder durch Leitlinien (Zeichen 340) markierte Fahrstreifen für jede Richtung haben.



the bold part says, that speed limits also don't count other divided roads, not just the real Autobahnen.


----------



## Verso

^ Interesting. But then they should make a distinction on the general speed-limit sign with another category: (at least) 4-lane roads outside built-up areas, like in Poland.


----------



## Patrick

not a bad idea 

btw: I took some pictures of the Schnellstraßen around Koblenz/Neuwied/Andernach, limited to 50/70/100/120 because the roads are near built-up areas

B9 northbound
















all pics here and here

B9 southbound
















all pics here and here

B256 westbound








all pics here

B256 eastbound








all pics here

Thanks go to the owner of the Autobahnatlas for hosting them


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Diese Geschwindigkeitsbeschränkung gilt nicht auf Autobahnen (Zeichen 330) sowie auf anderen Straßen mit Fahrbahnen für eine Richtung, die durch Mittelstreifen oder sonstige bauliche Einrichtungen getrennt sind.


This speed limitations doesn't apply on Autobahnen (sign 330) and also on other roads with lanes per direction separated by a median or other constructions (barriers).


----------



## Jeroen669

> Diese Geschwindigkeitsbeschränkung gilt nicht auf Autobahnen (Zeichen 330) sowie auf anderen Straßen mit Fahrbahnen für eine Richtung, die durch Mittelstreifen oder sonstige bauliche Einrichtungen getrennt sind.


So in theory, a 1+1 or 2+1 road with a barrier has no speed limit either? Cool.


----------



## thun

Yep. But I don't think you would find too much of them without speed limit signs.

2+2 Bundesstraßen are actually not that uncommon, e. g. in the north and south of Augsburg you can go on the B 17 and B 2 for perhaps 80km on them (thats the longest stretch I know).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ What about the Bundesstraße from Harzburg to Bernburg? (B5n or A36 or something?)


----------



## ren0312

erbsenzaehler said:


> Erbse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> loves ze German Autobahns!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's funky baby!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :cucumber:


Are you sure the last two are not Photoshopped?


----------



## FM 2258

Patrick said:


> schnellstra*ß*e


What's the name of this letter "ß" and how do you pronounce it? I think it sounds like a "B" and if it does, what's the difference?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's the same as ss

Gießen -> Giessen for instance.


----------



## keber

ren0312 said:


> Are you sure the last two are not Photoshopped?


Nope. Except that last one is from SE Asia.


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

ABRob said:


> Well, THAT is big:
> http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/file.php?5,file=13735
> 
> But that's too big!


He-he, from the picture it seems to me this sign should have its own vertical clearance sign on it :lol:


----------



## CborG

Which autobahnen are planned or U/C at the moment? I know of a few around Hamburg, (A20, A26, A22) and the A14 between Schwerin and Magdenburg. Does anybody have a complete list or map with all planned stretches?


----------



## Rohne

There's so much planned. Thousands of kilometers of widening to 6 or 8 lanes, and hundreds of kilometers of new stretches. But not that much currently u/c.
Not a list, but at Patrick's Autobahnatlas (www.autobahnatlas-online.de) you can find a nice map with all u/c and planned new stretches (planned widenings missing):
the map (pdf, 2.5MB)
legend (pdf, 80KB)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, except for some missing links, widening should have priority.


----------



## keber

This map is very unclear. In my glossary "verworfen" means abandoned or put aside. But here it is confusing with real plannings, because there is very similar color and also there are many types of "verworfene Autobahnen" (in costruction, in planning, half-"made" etc). Any explanation?


----------



## Rohne

Well, this map's focus is on Autobahns.
Some of the abandoned stretches are/were built, but not as Autobahn but as federal road or something else. That's why.
Stuttgart, for instance. There were so many Autobahns planned. But currently there's only the A8, A81 and the A831. Of the others, there are only the parts near Stuttgart finished, and they didn't get an A-number but a B-number (Bundesstraße = federal road), so they are actually just "gelbe Autobahns" and it's not planned to complete the whole stretch with motorway standard and rename it with an A-number.


----------



## Timon91

Patrick said:


> Now riding through the hills of the Taunus range


I have kind of a traumatised memory of this spot. In 2006, when going on holiday to Italy (temperature: 36 celsius) we got stuck here due to a "LKW-Unfall bei der Baustelle" and we stood still here for about 3,5 hours. The only luck we had was that we stood next to a Lithuatian cool-transport truck, so it didn't get too hot. It took us 14 hours to drive from Abcoude (near Amsterdam) to Bad Tölz (south of Munich). Not really a pleasant memory:badnews:


----------



## city_thing

Patrick said:


> for those who speak german, here is a satirical video from a german broadcast "Extra3" about a family who lives under and interchange, because their children can play there because of the low amount of traffic there


ROFLMAO!

That's really funny.


----------



## Patrick

btw:
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?5,97867

the number of traffic deaths in 2007 is below 5000 persons, for the first time ever. but the general number of small accidents increased a bit.


btw2:
by sj1, owner of www.autobahn-bilder.de
see here, shiny new crashbarriers on the new L40n between Potsdam and southern Berlin 
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/file.php?5,file=11287

btw3:
damn, 4 trucks side by side, on A3 in Cologne.
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/file.php?5,file=13742


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Man you see those Reining trucks everywhere  I once drove in one to Sweden  



> but the general number of small accidents increased a bit.


The majority of insurance costs are from low-speed parking accidents.



> see here, shiny new crashbarriers on the new L40n between Potsdam and southern Berlin


I don't like crashbarriers on the shoulder-side of the road, if there is no necessity for. It's always safer to park your car half off the emergency lane in case of a breakdown.


----------



## radi6404

Chriszwolle said:


> Man you see those Reining trucks everywhere  I once drove in one to Sweden
> 
> 
> 
> The majority of insurance costs are from low-speed parking accidents.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like crashbarriers on the shoulder-side of the road, if there is no necessity for. It's always safer to park your car half off the emergency lane in case of a breakdown.


If the motorway is properly, the shoulders are wide enough for cars, buses and tracsk to park there man, like the Sruma motorway which I have to metnion here because it´s a feature not many motorways seem to have. Even were there are crashbarriers on the emergeny lane the shoulders are wide enough to park the car very savely, 

Patrick, the crashbarriers are shiny, but unfortunately they have the typical german angular shape, I don´t like that shape, why aren´t they with the great shape, they would even be shinier then. Otherwise the motorway looks great.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

parking is one thing, but what if you have to exit your car? Or if you have multiple persons in the car? You cannot open the door next to a crashbarrier. Or change a tire, while sitting 10cm from the driving lanes. 

Besides that, the emergency lane is NEVER a safe place. If possible do not park your car on the shoulder, but on the banks next to it. Sometimes, trucks or cars don't pay attention and drive a little on the emergency lanes, and if you are parked there, you can say goodbye to your car, and probably your life too.


----------



## radi6404

Chriszwolle said:


> parking is one thing, but what if you have to exit your car? Or if you have multiple persons in the car? You cannot open the door next to a crashbarrier. Or change a tire, while sitting 10cm from the driving lanes.
> 
> Besides that, the emergency lane is NEVER a safe place. If possible do not park your car on the shoulder, but on the banks next to it. Sometimes, trucks or cars don't pay attention and drive a little on the emergency lanes, and if you are parked there, you can say goodbye to your car, and probably your life too.


Man, the Struma motorway shoulders are wide enough that you can change a tire, but you are apsolutely right that sometimes peopel are driving on them, for example when I travel on the Struma I see tracks driving on the emergeny line everytime I go to Sofia and return, I simply don´t understand that.


----------



## Kampflamm

Radi, I've missed you.


----------



## Patrick

radi6404 said:


> If the motorway is properly, the shoulders are wide enough for cars, buses and tracsk to park there man, like the Sruma motorway which I have to metnion here because it´s a feature not many motorways seem to have. Even were there are crashbarriers on the emergeny lane the shoulders are wide enough to park the car very savely,
> 
> Patrick, the crashbarriers are shiny, but unfortunately they have the typical german angular shape, I don´t like that shape, why aren´t they with the great shape, they would even be shinier then. Otherwise the motorway looks great.


then you have to wait till i get back to trier and back home again, because the new barriers on the A48 on a renovated part between exit 2 ulmen and exit 3 laubach have your favorised shape and are damn shiny (at least they were one month ago ) (btw: opinions are always different, i prefer this style like on the L40n more ) :nuts:

@Chris: that always reminds on this well-known picture of the A8 (source):








fortunately that will be history in the future.

ps: another find in the autobahn jewel case 
very old ddr-like sign on the A60 (source)


----------



## radi6404

"then you have to wait till i get back to trier and back home again, because the new barriers on the A48 on a renovated part between exit 2 ulmen and exit 3 laubach have your favorised shape and are damn shiny (at least they were one month ago ) (btw: opinions are always different, i prefer this style like on the L40n more ) "

Then please take pics when you drive there next time, always like to see such things.


----------



## Des

Thanks for the link to the map Rohne!

My favorite autobahn is definately the A9 from Berlin to Munchen.


----------



## pmaciej7

I drive from Szczecin to Munchen 2-3 times every year. 
A9 was also my favourite, but in the past i lost too much time in traffic jams. Once i saw 25 km line of cars on the opposite carriageway near Nurnberg. So now i prefer A93/A72/A4/A13. It's only 40 km more, and despite speed limits, travel gets faster.


----------



## keber

Patrick said:


> damn, 4 trucks side by side, on A3 in Cologne.
> http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/file.php?5,file=13742


Isn't some law in Germany (and elsewhere in Europe too), that trucks can occupy only 2 rightmost traffic lanes?


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## thun

Erm...theoretically yes, if there are three ore more lanes. If there are two lanes they are allowed to overtake but the one on the left has to be significantly faster (I think they have around 30 seconds to overtake). But practically truck drivers often don't care...


----------



## flierfy

Chriszwolle said:


> Something i find more remarkable on German traffic jams, is that if in the case of one closed lane, Germans don't seem to know how to merge, it looks like they just drive to the end, stop, and try to merge. This creates a huge delay in short traffic jams, i once spend one hour in a 1km traffic jam on a sunday in Düsseldorf.


Congestions are caused by the lack of downstream capacity not by the manner of driving. Merge at the end of a lane. That's the rule and that's how it should be done. That way both lanes that merge into one are equally slow.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ No but they can be worsened. Do you call it normal that a 1 kilometer traffic jam (approximatly 400 - 500 cars) need 1 hour to merge? Another problem was that people thought they are smart taking the parallel lanes (it was at interchange Düsseldorf-Süd), worsening the problem, instead from 3 to 1, it goes from 4 to 1.


----------



## flierfy

^^ Then it took an hour for you. Others seem to have gone through a bit quicker. That's the problem when everyone merges where he/she chooses to do so. That fastens one lane at the expense of all other lanes. 
To level this inequality drivers are taught to merge at the end of their lane.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Then it took an hour for you. Others seem to have gone through a bit quicker.


How do you think this was possible? stopped traffic is stopped traffic... I saw it multiple times, even 100m before the final merging point, traffic was still completely stopped for minutes.


----------



## flierfy

Chriszwolle said:


> How do you think this was possible? stopped traffic is stopped traffic... I saw it multiple times, even 100m before the final merging point, traffic was still completely stopped for minutes.


When you tell me that some drivers took the C/D lane I have to assume that they were quicker. At least a bit. Anyway, things like this happen. Don't let the congestions bother you.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ They think it gets quicker, because the first section of the parallel lane does move faster than the through lanes, but you also have to merge back onto the main lanes. 

In the Netherlands, it's illegal to do this via a rest stop.


----------



## Des

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ They think it gets quicker, because the first section of the parallel lane does move faster than the through lanes, but you also have to merge back onto the main lanes.
> 
> In the Netherlands, it's illegal to do this via a rest stop.


I experienced the same as you did. A couple months ago I drove from Frankfurt to Cologne. I saw a traffic jam ahead, slowed down and was standing still for at least 15 minutes. It was three lanes with an exit to an reststop on the right. Most Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes's all drove over the emergency lane onto the reststop exit. I stayed in the left lane. After 10 minutes 3 fire trucks and a couple police cars drove between the left and middle lane towards what appaered to be a crash. After half an hour I finally got to the crashsite that was near the onramp of the reststop. The traffic that came from or drove past the reststop moved almost freely past the crash but the 3 lanes on the highway struggled to merge to the most right lane. And it took a lot longer then necessary because they didn't merge well.


----------



## Jeroen669

In Germany it's even worse, because there are no emergency lanes at the merging lanes. So if there are people waiting to merge in, the road is blocked for emergency vehicles.


----------



## flierfy

Jeroen669 said:


> In Germany it's even worse, because there are no emergency lanes at the merging lanes.


If you mean a hard shoulder by emergency lane then you're just partly right. There are a lot of junctions where the shoulder continuous around the auxiliary lane.



Jeroen669 said:


> So if there are people waiting to merge in, the road is blocked for emergency vehicles.


Emergency vehicles almost never use hard shoulders in Germany. They use an emergency lane created by vehicles on the furthermost left lane and the lane next to its right.


----------



## Verso

^^ Yeah, I never got this, why's that?

Chris, I disagree with you about merging ASAP. In ideal world yes, but in reality many people go all the way to the end of the lane, so what else are you left with than do the same? I've been "blackmailed" too many times, so now I always go to the very end. Sometimes I'm even the only one atm to go so far, so people are angry with me D), but I don't care, it's the only reasonable thing to do.

Thanks for the photos, Patrick! Green signs?


----------



## flierfy

Verso said:


> Yeah, I never got this, why's that?


That is the only reliable way to provide space for emergency vehicles on dualled roads. I couldn't think of anything better.


----------



## goschio

flierfy said:


> ^^ Then it took an hour for you. Others seem to have gone through a bit quicker. That's the problem when everyone merges where he/she chooses to do so. That fastens one lane at the expense of all other lanes.
> To level this inequality drivers are taught to merge at the end of their lane.



True, I think its even the law in Germany. And it makes most sense IMO.
If people try to merge earlier I always use the Lichthupe to teach them a lesson.


----------



## Timon91

I'm sorry it is a bit offtopic, but in the dutch autosnelwegenforum is a small discussion going on about some new autobahns in east Germany. There are for instance plans for a German A18, going from Cottbus, along the Polish border, to Görlitz and Zittau. I also saw a planned motorway between Bautzen and Zittau on some map. Furthermore, it seemed to me as if a new motorway is planned between Hamburg and Berlin. That sounds strange to me, because there is already the BAB 24. Does anyone know what numbers these highways will get, and when they are supposed to be finished?

To make it easier, the map (Chris is the one who uploaded it, it isn't mine):


----------



## keber

I think, that most of "gray motorways" are currently not needed and they are there only as a far future plan.


----------



## Mateusz

I thought german network is perfect, or nearly perfect, but I see they want to perfectise it more


----------



## Timon91

^^In the former DDR are only a few motorways yet....


----------



## Verso

Any schedule for completion of the München ring?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MateoW said:


> I thought german network is perfect, or nearly perfect, but I see they want to perfectise it more


The network is pretty good indeed, although there are a few missing links, like the A1 Blankenheim - Daun, A33 Osnabrück - Bielefeld, A44 in the Ruhr and Kassel - Eisenach etc.

Though i hope they will focus more on the western and southern part of Germany, especially in road widening, because most attention was gone to Eastern Germany the last decade.


----------



## karim aboussir

I LOVE THE SONG AUTOBAHN BY KRAFTWERK !!!! ONE OF THE GREASTEST SONG EVER !!


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## Patrick

the grey lines are cancelled plannings. most of them there were from a plan in the 70s, called the "Leber-Plan", that every german has only like 20 minutes to drive to the next autobahn.

about the grey line between Berlin and Hamburg: That was an alternative plan for the route Berlin-Hamburg, but finally it was the A24 which has been built.


----------



## H123Laci

HAWC1506 said:


> My guess is because that it's a cloverleaf. They probably realised how dangerous things can get at a cloverleaf exchange they decided to discontinue with the plan. To my knowledge, German Autobahns normally do not have cloverleafs. I know British highways has around four, maybe less.



No, you are totally wrong.

Cloverleaves are very good (and nice) interchanges (not exchanges.. , and are safe with C/D (collector/distributor lanes) to avoid weaving between the entering and exiting traffic...
the only disadvantage is the limited change capacity...

this interchange is unfinished because the 474n Dülmen bypass is unfinished.

look it at here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=hu&geocode=&q=d%C3%BClmen&ie=UTF8&ll=51.850148,7.287455&spn=0.036424,0.108147&z=14


----------



## Patrick

the reason why cloverleafs are the most used form is because it is the cheapest (my guess). you only need to build one bridge. some regions are full of cloverleafs, just check out the area around Mannheim/Ludwigshafen or the entire Rhein-Ruhr-Area.

This morning, I needed 2 hours to drive to Koblenz (40km) just because of some few snow.
































the white sign says: Eingeschränkter Winterdienst - Der Umwelt zuliebe, _Limited Winter Service - for environment's sake_


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## Timon91

^^Great winter pics! One year ago it was 25 degrees and full sun at this time.


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## Patrick

thx 
yes, it is a late winter this year. the easter week-end was the coldest since 38 years (ok, it was also damn early )

here are some more pics from some online newspapers:

A5 north of Frankfurt









B327 south of Koblenz

















somewhere in Rheinland-Pfalz




































B50 east of Wittlich


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## Rebasepoiss

So when Germany has snow, Estonia has 11C


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## Timon91

^^Netherlands too


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## radi6404

Patrick, when will you take the pics of the shiny motorway stretch.


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## Patrick

well, i am in trier now, friday could be a possibilty if a friend of mine drives home with his car. the last two weeks, i travelled with the train (we drove to the koblenz train station yesterday when i took the pics). driving with the car for myself and alone is too expensive at the moment (for my limited budget). hope the sun will shine and the barrier did not get dirty so fast...


----------



## tk780

*German State Introduces Autobahn Speed Limit*

For years, Germans have worried that speed limits may be coming for the autobahn. On Wednesday, the first state-wide slowdown went into effect. Are more such regulations on the way?

Say the word "autobahn," and people's eyes light up around the world. Immediately, dreams of bombing down the highway at unheard of speeds pop into their heads.

Now though, at least in one German state, that dream has been dashed. As of Wednesday, drivers in the state of Bremen will no longer be able to put the pedal to the metal. From now on, the maximum speed allowed is 120 kilometers per hour (75 miles per hour).

The change was announced earlier in the week by Rainer Loske, Bremen's environment minister, who cited environmental concerns as the principal reason behind the decision. It is the product of the center-left coalition of the Greens and Social Democrats, which took power in the state in 2005.

In a Wednesday statement, Loske called the move "a signal for the protection of the environment and climate. Bremen is a pioneer."

Despite the small size of the affected stretch, the limit in Bremen could symbolize the beginning of a larger change in Germany, as it will give impetus to an initiative by the states of Bremen, Berlin and Brandenburg in the Bundesrat, Germany's upper house of parliament, to impose a countrywide limit of 130 kilometers per hour (81 miles per hour).

Jürgen Resch, director of the environmental advocacy group Deutsche Umwelthilfe, said earlier this week that the European Commission may force Germany to introduce an autobahn speed limit by 2010.


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## Patrick

i hate these ecological pseudo-arguments 
but I guess it's ok for Bremen, as Bremen is a small city bundesland with some traffic amount and most parts of Bremen's Autobahnen already had a limit.

many other bundesländer don't care about that, fortunately.


----------



## Svartmetall

Patrick said:


> i hate these ecological pseudo-arguments
> but I guess it's ok for Bremen, as Bremen is a small city bundesland with some traffic amount and most parts of Bremen's Autobahnen already had a limit.
> 
> many other bundesländer don't care about that, fortunately.


The ecological "pseudo" arguments are partially correct. Travelling at very high speed increases wind resistance, not only that but the higher the revs the more work the engine is doing, thus the more fuel consumed. Travelling at 160kmph compared to 130kmph is quite a difference when it comes to fuel consumption generally.


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## ChrisZwolle

Bremen is only a very small territory.


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## Patrick

actually, before this new limit, there were only 7km unlimited.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Video: B403*

I made a little video yesterday of the B402, a Gelbe Autobahn (Expressway) from the A31 Autobahn near Meppen towards the Dutch border, where it continues as A37 motorway to Emmen. I drove about 110km/h because i had some trouble with my engine (it just wouldn't go faster :nuts: ). The guy overtaking me with the trailer drove at least 60km/h too fast. This expressway is very quiet.


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## Timon91

^^Cool video. Is there an interchange with the A31, or is it just and exit with traffic lights?


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## ChrisZwolle

It's a full freeflow interchange (it used to have grade crossings), but it's way too tight constructed, as usual with German interchanges which are not top-priority.


----------



## Timon91

^^I can understand that. AADT of 2000 near the border or something?


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## ChrisZwolle

At the border, the AADT in 2006 (most recent figure) was 6.132 vehicles on workdays, and 5.535 on weekdays. That's still an increase of 3.28%, however 36% of the traffic is truck traffic. 

But during saturdays, like the day when this video was taken, there is very few traffic. However, the rest of the B402/B213 to Cloppenburg can carry quite some trucks, and i hope they make the entire route to the A1 a Gelbe Autobahn. It can save quite some time and distance between the Netherlands and Bremen/Hamburg.


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## Timon91

^^Would it also decrease the travelling time between Amsterdam and Hamburg? The existing connection is quite fast already (A1/BAB30/BAB1)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A1 Osnabrück - Bremen is quite overcrowded with trucks, and widening is progressing very slow. Besides that, the Dutch A1 is also very overcrowded over nearly all it's length, and widening is not in the picture yet, so the A37/E233 route can be an alternative, also for medium range traffic between the Dutch provinces of Overijssel and Drenthe to Niedersachsen.


----------



## Verso

This could easily be a real motorway.

Anyway, about this speed limit in Bremen... I suppose they installed signs "speed limit 120 km/h" rather than not installing them and thinking 120 km/h is now the general speed limit on motorways anyway, I mean it's still Germany. And if there was for example speed limit 100 km/h and now it's 120, I guess they tell it with "speed limit 120 km/h" sign, or do they put sign "no limit any more", meaning now you can drive 120 km/h?


----------



## Patrick

Verso said:


> I guess they tell it with "speed limit 120 km/h" sign, or do they put sign "no limit any more", meaning now you can drive 120 km/h?


I guess they just added some 120km/h signs to the 7km of unlimited autobahn...otherwise it wouldn't be subject to the regulations.
But I don't know exactly.


----------



## muc

> I guess they tell it with "speed limit 120 km/h" sign, or do they put sign "no limit any more", meaning now you can drive 120 km/h?


They would have to put up 120km/h signs. On German Autobahns there is no speed limit unless stated otherwiese by speed limit signs. A single federal state cannot change that rule.

A lot of fuss just about new speed limits on a few kilometers of autobahn close to a city. Nothing unusual at all. It's just the green party in the state governement wanting to score some points by calling this a major breakthrough.


----------



## Verso

Ok, thanks, guys.


----------



## radi6404

Patrick said:


> I guess they just added some 120km/h signs to the 7km of unlimited autobahn...otherwise it wouldn't be subject to the regulations.
> But I don't know exactly.


what happened to the motorway section?


----------



## thun

It disappeared suddenly. On a quiet dusk it was no longer there... 

No, honestly: I don't get your question, Radi.
What should have happened? They just added some speed limit signs, thats it.


----------



## radi6404

I meant, what happened to Patrick´s promised pics of the shiny motorway section?


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## Patrick

i just didn't had the opportunity to take pics of them because i am using the train regulary at the moment because my friend with whom i usually drive has longer holidays than me. i didn't know that when i said i'll take photos in march/april. don't know when i'll be on that autobahn again.

edit: the autobahnatlas-gallery has been updated, i also contributed something:

A3 Frankfurter Kreuz - Obertshausen, 15 photos
A5 Frankfurter Kreuz - Darmstädter Kreuz, 19 photos
B43 Flughafen Frankfurt - Raunheim, 14 photos
L3004 Oberursel - Frankfurt, 8 photos
L3004 Frankfurt - Oberursel, 9 photos
L3005 Schwalbach - Eschborn, 4 photos
L3005 Eschborn - Schwalbach, 10 photos


----------



## ABRob

Wow - 156 traffic jams with 750km in Germany now.
That's a lot for a 4 day holiday...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I see, 777km at the peak. Quite heavy. I hope it's less during saturday or sunday, because i want to go to Denmark, and have to go via Hamburg.


----------



## Timon91

^^don't forget to make some nice pics


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Right now at 10 PM there is still 200km of traffic jam including a 40km queue on the A2 between Königslutter and Peine. (near Braunschweig and Hannover)


----------



## ABRob

Chriszwolle said:


> I see, 777km at the peak. Quite heavy.


Just for interest: What is your source?

Mine is http://www.wdr.de/themen/verkehr/verkehrslage/ and there I saw a peak of 815km :shook:



Chriszwolle said:


> I hope it's less during saturday or sunday, because i want to go to Denmark, and have to go via Hamburg.


Better drive on Saturday - Sunday everyone is comming back.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

www.verkehrsinfo.de


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Bizarre happening on the A1 near Hamburg:

10km long, 2 lines of trucks bumper to bumper waiting to merge from 2 to 1 lane.


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## Timon91

"Geef ritser ruimte"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You mean Reißverschluß


----------



## thun

At least it works there.

Normally most drivers (mainly car drivers) don't get the concept of Reißverschluß and merge to one line half a kilometre in advance.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I assume this is an error:









I doubt if it peaked 600km of traffic jams above the average around that time.


----------



## HAWC1506

thun said:


> At least it works there.
> 
> Normally most drivers (mainly car drivers) don't get the concept of Reißverschluß and merge to one line half a kilometre in advance.


Does that help traffic or slow it down even more?


----------



## Jeroen669

radi6404 said:


> Yes, the fuel prices are insame in Germany


Currently, the fuel in Germany (super 95) is almost €0,20 cheaper as in Holland. Last week I filled my tank for €1,42/l at a german gas station.


----------



## thun

Today Super is 1,51€ here in Passau. And if you cross the river to Austria it's around 1,30€.

They won`t lower the taxes here, they make too much money out of it...


----------



## HD

radi6404 said:


> 1,10 € and Diesel is 1,20 € or 1,15 €



considering what people earn in bulgaria, the gas in bulgaria is much more expensive than in germany, even if the actual price in germany is higher. the average bulgarian can buy a few hundred litres of gas/month ... the average german several times more ...


----------



## radi6404

HD said:


> considering what people earn in bulgaria, the gas in bulgaria is much more expensive than in germany, even if the actual price in germany is higher. the average bulgarian can buy a few hundred litres of gas/month ... the average german several times more ...


but there´s gas here which is really cheap, only 50 cent, and many make their cars ready to be filled with gas besides benzin.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Because of malfunctioning traffic lights at the offramp near Arnhem, there is now a 25km international traffic jam.

10 km on the German A3 between Rees and the border, and 15 km on the Dutch A12 from the border to IC Velperbroek.


----------



## Jeroen669

It must a chaos there. This is one of the busiest intersecions without free flow in Holland. I suppose the N325 must also be jammed?


----------



## Timon91

I don't often hear about traffic jams crossing the dutch border. Does it often happen? I have experienced it once, about 10 years ago when coming from Belgium. A giant truck accident just accross the border caused quite a big traffic jam.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's quite common to have a traffic jam immediatly after the Dutch border. It happens often at the A16, A76 and A12 motorways.


----------



## Patrick

i often saw jams between on the french-luxemburgian border, mostly afternoon direction to france.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, a lot of people around Thionville/Metz work in Luxemburg


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Traffic counts for every section of Autobahn (PDF)*


----------



## ABRob

Chriszwolle said:


> *Traffic counts for every section of Autobahn (PDF)*


Maximum: 191400 A100 in Berlin "Dreieck Funkturm" - "Kurfürstendamm" - here
Minimum: 2200 A20 east of "Dreieck Uckermark" - here

On the bottom of this page you can find maps to this traffic counts.


----------



## Timon91

Interesting dates. Notice the huge percentage of Schwerverkehr near the eastern borders. A6 Rozvadov border crossing has 50,1% of SV.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ that usual at border crossings. Dutch data shows the same.


----------



## Timon91

^^Still 50% is very very very much. Other border crossings show 20-30%, and less.


----------



## Patrick

very strange:

A1 AD Vulkaneifel - Mehren: 4000 vehicles

a friend told me that only the traffic from the A1 (from Daun to Trier and Trier to Daun) is counted there. very strange in my eyes. that must mean, that the place where they count must be in the Dreieck before the merge with the A48. when just looking at the stats, it looks very strange. here is a small draw of that section


AS Daun/End of A1
||
|| 8100 vehicles
||
AD Vulkaneifel ======================== AS Ulmen ===> A48 to Koblenz
|| .................................23800 vehicles
|| 4000 vehicles
||
AS Mehren
||
|| 20900 vehicles
||
AS Manderscheid
||
||
A1 to Trier


----------



## convalescence

here is a map view of the small piece that patrick mentioned
http://maps.google.de/maps?q=mehren&ie=UTF8&ll=50.171703,6.898041&spn=0.013166,0.033388&t=k&z=15

the a48 and a1 merge in very short distance to AS Mehren so the only possible explanation is that the statistics only show the traffic of the inner lane (A1) and that sounds logical when half of the traffic from Daun-AS Vulkaneifel (8100) is going towards Trier!

so just a fault by the people who made the statistics....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it's only the through lanes, between the points where the A1 meets the A48. Possibly, only 4000 vehicles continue on the A1 there, the rest uses the A48 towards Koblenz or Trier.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Kinda like this:


----------



## Verso

I just know the traffic there is really scarce given the fact it's Germany and A*1*.


----------



## convalescence

it's so sad that the A1-Gap between Daun and Blankenheim isn't closed yet...
The Eifel region needs this motorway so much, because the Bundesstraßen and Landstraßen in North-South direction are crowded with trucks. Some villages and towns have horrible traffic problems (especially Hillesheim).

The A60 Bitburg-Wittlich is in my eyes a motorway that was built for political reasons (to connect Belgium and the harbours with the Rhein-Main area - that gap isn't closed yet either!) - the traffic couldn't be the cause for that...sure some people use it to get to Trier but the way along AK Wittlich is much longer than the B50 from Bitburg to Trier which is totally overcrowded with truck traffic and cars and it doesn't even has 4 lanes (except a small piece of 2km) and runs through small villages...here a motorway was needed but now there's the A60 which was not necessary (in my eyes).


----------



## ABRob

convalescence said:


> so just a fault by the people who made the statistics....


That's not the only fault in this statistic.
For the B61/E30 in Bad Oeynhausen, this statistic says around 35000 but in fact it's around 50000... It was already 37000 in 1988 and 46000 in 1991.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

One driver killed in "ball of fire" inferno.

A40 Straelen, between Venlo (NL) and Duisburg


----------



## Timon91

^^I read about it on teletext. The dutch A67 was partly closed and a big mess.


----------



## ABRob

Ne pics from these roads:
In GoogleEarth - In GoogleMaps

The Link:
*-> http://www.autobahnen-europa.eu/index-385-390.html*

http://blog.autobahnen-europa.eu/2008/06/update-03062008.html

But because i didn't want to delete my Prague pics yet, these new pics are hostet at Google-Picasa.


----------



## Mateusz

I remember going on A40, actually I have CD somewhere in my house at Poland with pics from A7 and A4 as far as I remember, maybe someday I will manage to find it


----------



## Verso

*Snails cause road crash*

Hundreds of migrating snails caused a six car pile-up at they swarmed across a busy dual carriageway in Germany.

Police and rescue chiefs had to close the road for several hours while crushed and surviving snails were scraped off the tarmac.

Environmentalists believe the mass migration could have been an indicator of climate change as the snails sought a more suitable habitat.

Six cars were damaged as they slid across the B14 A-Road near Stuttgart.

"Cars were crushing the snails and the slime was making the road so slippery that people started skidding all over the place," said one driver.

"Motorists had to stop and try to pick their way through the snails. It was like something from a horror film."

_http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2877248.html_

Are there any pix?


----------



## goschio

Verso said:


> *
> 
> Environmentalists believe the mass migration could have been an indicator of climate change as the snails sought a more suitable habitat.
> 
> *


*

hno:

Every piece of shit is nowadays attributed to climate change. Perhaps it just rained and the f***ing snails just came out of their holes.*


----------



## H123Laci

Verso said:


> Are there any pix?


Yeah:










the danger was signed so the accident was the drivers' fault... :lol:


----------



## Verso

^^ Actually, instead of snail, car should be drawn on that sign and put on that Snail Highway. :lol:


----------



## Schweden

Yeah, when my mother was biking she saw like 200 snails crossing the road... She had to wait for 10 min  I think it was 5 years ago...


----------



## Verso

^^ These were some fast snails. :lol:


----------



## Schweden

Haha, well, maybe it was 30... But since it was a small road and.... maybe it was 100 snails, whatever!


----------



## Jeroen669

Verso said:


> ^^ Actually, instead of snail, car should be drawn on that sign and put on that Snail Highway. :lol:


Would be nice as an entrance sign for dutch motorways. :lol:


----------



## Verso

^ You mean the one with snail? :lol:


----------



## Morsue

Last summer my sister was driving on the motorway in southern Sweden and she had to swerve for a family of ducks that were crossing the road!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Verso said:


> ^ You mean the one with snail? :lol:


Actually I saw a snail overtaking me during a traffic jam yesterday :lol:


----------



## x-type

Schweden said:


> Haha, well, maybe it was 30... But since it was a small road and.... maybe it was 100 snails, whatever!


anyway - turbo snails! i haven't met regular snail which crosses road in 5 min


----------



## Verso

Chriszwolle said:


> Actually I saw a snail overtaking me during a traffic jam yesterday :lol:


You could've approached the vehicle in front of you for one more meter and overtaken the snail for another half an hour. :lol:


----------



## H123Laci

^^ Nope.
He was only 1cm from the car ahead of him, when he was overtaken by the snail... :lol:


----------



## HAWC1506

Ahhh found one here.










Also, why the 60 kmph on the right lane?


----------



## zazo

Is the german autostrade system the biggest in Europe?


----------



## BND

HAWC1506 said:


> Also, why the 60 kmph on the right lane?


Because of trucks. There seems to be a steep slope there, so it is safer if the trucks go slower when they have to brake (or even stop) in case of emergency IMO.


----------



## Patrick

BND said:


> Because of trucks. There seems to be a steep slope there, so it is safer if the trucks go slower when they have to brake (or even stop) in case of emergency IMO.


it's here:









this is the view from the other direction:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

zazo said:


> Is the german autostrade system the biggest in Europe?


Depends on definition. The French, Spanish and German systems are about equal in length. However, the Spanish building pace is much higher, so the Spanish system will become the third largest in the world during the next decade.


----------



## muravidék

^^after? the US and? Brazilian, Canadian, Chinese, Japanese?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

US -> China -> Spain -> Germany/France

The others don't have 10.000 + kilometers.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

By the way, Canada is often cited for having like 17.000 kilometers of freeway, however, I counted them all, and I got around 5.800 kilometers. But there are many long distance 4-lane highways, but they're not freeways (no grade separated intersections).


----------



## muravidék

Where is Italy?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In Southern Europe


----------



## Verso

^ Like Portugl. :lol: Italy has just under 10,000 km (9,000 or so).



Chriszwolle said:


> US -> China -> Spain -> Germany/France
> 
> The others don't have 10.000 + kilometers.


Last time I checked, Brazil had 9,999.1 km. I'm sure 900 m have been added since.


----------



## muravidék

actually, I was expecting that kind of answer beside the desired one
thanks verso


----------



## Svartmetall

Chriszwolle said:


> By the way, Canada is often cited for having like 17.000 kilometers of freeway, however, I counted them all, and I got around 5.800 kilometers. But there are many long distance 4-lane highways, but they're not freeways (no grade separated intersections).


All European nations have supplimentary high grade roads too though don't they? Germany has its B roads, Britain has its Duel Carriageways etc etc.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes, but not all of those are up to motorway standards. Mostoften, a German Bundesstraße is a ordinary 2 or 3 lane highway without grade separation. Some Bundesstraßen are better than some Autobahnen on the other hand.


----------



## HAWC1506

So what's the German roadway hierarchy? There's the Autobahn, then comes...?


----------



## Patrick

A Autobahn
B Bundesstraße (Federal road)
L Landesstraße (Bundesland road, called Staatsstraße (state road) in Saxony (S) and in Bavaria (St))
K Kreisstraße (District road)
(Gemeindestraße) (Community road)

But some Bundesstraßen and Landstraßen and even Kreisstraßen can have a "autobahnähnlicher Ausbauzustand" (_nearly like autobahn_) and are usually called Schnellstraße or Kraftfahrstraße or Gelbe Autobahn. It's a bit complicated and pretty confusing and not so clear as it is in other countries.


----------



## HAWC1506

^^So when it's "like-an-autobahn" does it mean that it meets the requirements of the autobahn except it doesn't have the designation?

Also, does anyone know the minimum turning radius and the maximum grade for the autobahn?


----------



## x-type

Patrick said:


> A Autobahn
> B Bundesstraße (Federal road)
> L Landesstraße (Bundesland road, called Staatsstraße (state road) in Saxony (S) and in Bavaria (St))
> K Kreisstraße (District road)
> (Gemeindestraße) (Community road)
> 
> But some Bundesstraßen and Landstraßen and even Kreisstraßen can have a "autobahnähnlicher Ausbauzustand" (_nearly like autobahn_) and are usually called Schnellstraße or Kraftfahrstraße or Gelbe Autobahn. It's a bit complicated and pretty confusing and not so clear as it is in other countries.


now i see who was our idol while we've been giving names to roads in Coratia


----------



## ChrisZwolle

HAWC1506 said:


> ^^So when it's "like-an-autobahn" does it mean that it meets the requirements of the autobahn except it doesn't have the designation?


Yes.


----------



## thun

And unless signed otherwise, every road with separated direction lanes ("baulich getrennte Richtungsfahrbahnen") has no general speed limit. Theoretically, there could exist a 1+1 Kreisstraße were it would be allowed to drive 200+ km/h. Fortunately, I've never seen one. 

The difference between an Autobahn and a Gelbe Autobahn (because the signing of most other roads except Autobahnen is yellow) is that the lanes are often a bit more narrow, curves can have smaller turning radius, etc. It's almost like an Autobahn but a bit narrower. Just imagine a Swiss motorway and your quite close to a Gelbe Autobahn. Except the speed limit, of course. 


@ Road hierarchy:
In Bavaria, a Kreisstraße is signed (on milestones and maps) with the abbreviation of the Landkreis and a number (e.g. Kreisstraße 5 in Munich would be "M 5"). Is this different in other Bundesländer (because you write "K", Patrick)?


----------



## keber

ChrisZwolle said:


> Customs in Berlin?


Probably for trucks carrying goods from outside EU. Like port, just not for ship.


----------



## HAWC1506

Patrick said:


> thx. i don't think that we have such.


Hey I've always wondered, why are there five electronic display signs?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So they can both sign "Stau" (traffic jam) and a maximum speed.


----------



## thun

Customs offices were common in most German cities before Schengen existed, lots of medium and large cities still have them, so lorries don't have to do the customs procedureat the boarer but can do it before leaving.


----------



## HAWC1506

Do you guys know what kind of paint is most popular on motorways in Europe? Are they just regular paint or are they kind of like plastic that is melted onto the road?


----------



## Morsue

It's a sort of thermoplastic paint which is melted onto the road and is thus capable of reflecting light for greater security. Regular paint wouldn't even be visible at night.


----------



## mgk920

Morsue said:


> It's a sort of thermoplastic paint which is melted onto the road and is thus capable of reflecting light for greater security. Regular paint wouldn't even be visible at night.


Around here, paint is made retro-reflective by spraying tiny glass beads onto the paint right after the paint is sprayed on.

Mike


----------



## Timon91

In the Netherlands they mostly use the thermoplastic paint that they burn on the road. I don't know lots of roads where they use regular paint. In the US I didn't see any thermoplastics at some roads, they still use regular paint there hno:


----------



## RipleyLV

Here are my pictures of German autobahns. I could take more of them, if only the weather weren't too bad:

A12/A10 Dreieck Spreeau










A10/A13/A113 Kreuz Schönefeld



















A2/A10 Dreieck Werder 



















A2










Ooow, now were talking. :naughty:



















A30/A31 Kreuz Schüttorf










A30 to Amsterdam (NL)










Main road Nr.67




























A31 . At this picture taking moment, I was listening to some Dutch radio station. 










A30. 1 hour of driving till Bremen. 










A30/A1 Kreuz Lotte/Osnabrück










Driving through Bad Oeynhausen till A2, since the bypass isn't done yet.



















Again A2.



















A2 near Hannover.










:cheers:


----------



## Des

Nice pics RipleyRV, reminds me of my trips to Berlin. That last bit of the A2 approaching Berlin is great, three lanes and straight as an arrow. I got delayed at Bad Oeynhausen every single time I drove there, are they working on the bypass yet?


----------



## ABRob

Des said:


> I got delayed at Bad Oeynhausen every single time I drove there, are they working on the bypass yet?


Work (should) start next month.


----------



## RipleyLV

Thanks Des! 


Des said:


> Ripley*R*V


----------



## Timon91

Ripley was driving an RV 
My experience with Bad Oeynhausen isn't that bad. I guess I was lucky


----------



## HAWC1506

Timon91 said:


> In the Netherlands they mostly use the thermoplastic paint that they burn on the road. I don't know lots of roads where they use regular paint. In the US I didn't see any thermoplastics at some roads, they still use regular paint there hno:


Yup we have them.










They are about VERY narrow compared to German highways though. I believe the normal white dashed lines on the autobahn is 15 cm wide (6 inches). On American highways, standard for nearly all highway markings (white dashed, side markings, etc.) are 4 inches wide, about 10 cm. The material is probably the same though, glass beads are also sprayed onto the paint while it's being melted.

If you look closely at the picture though, you will notice that the markings have little bumps on them. There's a special machine that Washington uses that thickens the paint at intervals to create a vibration when cars run over it. Are those in use in Germany? I remember seeing some Netherlands highways using them.


----------



## Morsue

They're not in use on the section I usually travel in Germany (Puttgarden-Mulhouse via HaFraBa), but Sweden, Denmark and France use a similar technique.


----------



## Timon91

@HAWC1506: luckily the US uses thermoplastic markings for the new roads, but lots of old ones still have the regular paint (like the US 395 north of Spokane). In Alaska they mostly use the regular paint, but they have made small holes in the road along the white line, so you do feel it when you get of the road. Like over here


----------



## G5man

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q420/Ripley9895/IMG_1837.jpg

Just curious what do those signs between the variable speed signs indicate?


----------



## Substructure

G5man : It means trucks are forbidden to overtake cars.

HAWC1506 and Morsue : I confirm France uses these bumps extensively on its roads. I've seen some in the Netherlands and Germany as well.


----------



## Des

RipleyLV said:


> Thanks Des!


Sorry LV :cheers:


----------



## RipleyLV

G5man said:


> Just curious what do those signs between the variable speed signs indicate?














Substructure said:


> G5man : It means trucks are *forbidden* to overtake cars.


Actually it means that it's *warrantable* to overtake cars and trucks.

If it would be *forbidden*, than it would look like this:


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Not necessarily. I believe that a proper road network is vital for a country (especially when considering freight and logistics), however, I don't believe that we should be totally reliant upon private vehicles and that spending should be spread more in favour of rail and inner city PT alternatives. Therefore I would oppose a pointless 24 lane highway across the centre of Germany, but I would say that a proper 3x3 road with occasional 2x2 sections in low traffic areas with full grade separation would be useful. But this is a discussion for another thread.


----------



## HAWC1506

PLH said:


> You've chosen the wrong forum then


haha no I'm a car enthusiast. I love cars and I love driving. But I'd rather see a three-lane highway in combination with rail transit than a congested 12-lane superhighway. It provides more alternatives. Those who don't really like driving can take the train. Those who do love driving will then be blessed with less cars on the road. :]


----------



## ChrisZwolle

HAWC1506 said:


> haha no I'm a car enthusiast. I love cars and I love driving. But I'd rather see a three-lane highway in combination with rail transit than a congested 12-lane superhighway. It provides more alternatives. Those who don't really like driving can take the train. Those who do love driving will then be blessed with less cars on the road. :]


You can't just limit a freeway to 2x3 lanes no matter what. For instance, in your area, nearly all north-south traffic centers around Seattle, because there are extensive suburban areas both north and south of Seattle. All traffic comes together around downtown. I'd rather have one major freeway of 12 lanes, than say 2 or 3 2x3 freeways 1 or 2 miles apart. However, on the larger perspective (metro area) it's better to have several freeways to make the network more robust in case of incidents. The I-405 is an example of that. 

On freeways with volumes up to 250,000 or even more, you can't really take enough of that traffic into a railway line to have low enough volumes that a 2x3 freeway is enough. 

Traffic wise, it's best to spread out the number of worklocations, so you have less massive commuter flows on freeways, and preferrably both ways. I know that's not the best idea for most skyline enthousiasts (including me), but traffic wise it's better to have more work locations in the suburbs. Some US metro area's are doing a good job that way, for instance Atlanta.


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ I'd not hold Atlanta up to be a good urban design model in any reasonable planning circle. Atlanta is a disaster. As for your assertation about the rail line and capacity, it has been shown time and time again that rail lines have 10 times the capacity of a highway per track added (depending upon the signalling, rolling stock and schedules of course). 

I would suggest that you look at Japan as an example of urban planning and for countrywide transport. A country less dense than your own with a long tradition of managing to shift millions of people daily by rail despite having a (comparitively) small highway network. It's efficient, requires less money and is the only way that Japan could function as a country. 

Sometimes, Chris, you are so anti-PT it's almost funny and though I appreciate the work you do in the highways section, you really need to make sure your facts are straight before you post some of this stuff.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ I'd not hold Atlanta up to be a good urban design model in any reasonable planning circle. Atlanta is a disaster. As for your assertation about the rail line and capacity, it has been shown time and time again that rail lines have 10 times the capacity of a highway per track added (depending upon the signalling, rolling stock and schedules of course).


The problem is that you might have that capacity, it's only used during rushhours. Besides that, in nearly all countries the train or any sort of Public transit is not as much an option as in Japan. The theoretical daily capacity of a railway line is not that interesting. I can also say if all cars are stuffed with 5 people, and it runs to full capacity 24 hours, a 2x3 freeway can handle 1.584.000 million people per day. Of course, that's not realistic.

About Atlanta; imagine how the situation would be if there was only one business / job center in the city. I totally agree with you Atlanta metro is a mess and way too low density (the Atlanta MSA has a lower population density than the whole Netherlands), but they did a good job trying to divert some of the traffic to downtown to more suburban areas.


----------



## Svartmetall

I don't know how you can say that public transport is not an option in other countries! There are plenty of examples, even in Europe of enormous demand on PT infrastructure during peak, and off-peak. Why do metros still run at 5 minute frequencies throughout the day if they are not going to be used? The answer is that they are. If you look at travel patterns in Europe compared to, say, the USA, then you'll find that transit systems on the whole are utilised far more off-peak in Europe than the US where transit is purely catering for the commuter. 

I don't know whether or not you've ever lived in a car-centric city with poor PT provision, but I am currently right now, and I can tell you it is not much fun at all. Roads are far more needlessly crowded because PT provision isn't there. Of course, we'll always need good roads, but you disregard PT far too much as a viable method of transit, a mistake that certain countries have done already and now they suffer economically from lost productivity due to traffic jams.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

But did public transit solve any congestion problems in traffic jam-ridden cities? Look at New York for instance. It has a massive PT usage, yet the traffic jams are one of the worst in the country. Ofcourse, it would be far worse without public transit, so I believe it's a reciprocity of both modalities. Coincidentally, they just released new figures of commutertraffic patterns in the Netherlands. We are known for extensive PT, yet only 1 out of 10 commuters uses public transport. source in dutch 
There's a reason why people chose their cars over public transit, and that reason is not only the stereotypically "lazyness" or "old habits".


----------



## HD

2 x 3 should be standard in germany - I can't believe some stretches of the A3, A5 or many other important routes are still 2 x 2 - being on the crossroads between east and west, north and south it is vital to have a working network. where else in europe can you be stuck in traffic at 3am in the middle of nowhere?

it takes ages to upgrade europe's largest highway network


----------



## Svartmetall

Yes, it does solve problems in traffic jam ridden cities. How many highways would be required in New York to cope with the new cars on the road from a lack of PT? Also, you're using an example which doesn't stack up compared to the rest of the country too. New York is by far the most dense city in the USA - more cars condensed into a small area, ergo more traffic problems. 

Overall modality is a bad measure of the impact of PT though. It's in urban areas which PT thrives most of all. The inefficient intercity travel that many people do for work is something that has to be addressed for the future, but that's another argument. 

Anyway, lets talk about economics when it comes to PT - I'll use Stuttgart as an example as that is a city that is spread across a valley with lots of settlements outside of the main city area making it very polycentric (plus it's in Germany and this is the autobahn thread). 320 million trips are taken on PT in the VVS region every year generating 327 million euros of revenue which covers 57% of all operations (including maintenance). This is a gain from the year 2000 where only 51% of operations were covered (and patronage was lower). Do roads generate such an income to assist in their maintenance? Can you imagine how many billions would need to be spent on road construction and how awful it would be for the city if massive highways needed to be constructed to accomodate 320 million extra vehicle trips?

As for the reason that people choose cars over PT - it's the perception of freedom and convenience, something which I have found not to be true in my travels in cities with decent PT. I find the upkeep of a car expensive, the taxes, the fuel, the vehicle maintenance, the stress of sitting in traffic jams. In most cities PT is cheaper and yes, it might take very slightly longer (though it can be quicker on a number of occasions), it still provides a similar level of flexibility. Once you factor in things like parking, and the walk from where you park, it tends to be just about equal (unless of course you have ugly parking structures all over the city). 

I honestly don't understand why people choose cars over PT and it is something I struggle to understand, but there we go. It doesn't mean that PT is worth deriding and not being offered as an alternative - something which you seem, in some of your posting not to address properly.


----------



## H123Laci

Svartmetall said:


> Do roads generate such an income to assist in their maintenance?


mamma mia, st. joseph....

No, roads do not generate even a penny a hole in the middle...

(have you ever heard of FUEL TAX? or VEHICLE TAX? or ROAD TAX?)


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Course I have, and have you seen how much these amount for a national budget compared to how much is spent on roads. 

(Yes, my response is just as sarcastic as your post to me).

The only reason I've even entered into this discussion is because of Chris and his attitude towards PT. In every post about road capacity he feels the need to twist the knife. A little balance is obviously needed.


----------



## H123Laci

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Course I have, and have you seen how much these amount for a national budget compared to how much is spent on roads.


yeah, only fractions...
(only fractions of the road income is given back to the roads...
the big portion goes to the PT (crossfinancing) and other social expenditure...)




> A little balance is obviously needed.


do you want to balance out Chris' objectivity with your prejudice? :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Course I have, and have you seen how much these amount for a national budget compared to how much is spent on roads.


*In the Netherlands:*

Income from road-related taxes: 14,5 billion (excluding VAT/sales tax)
National budget: 179 billion
roads: 2,8 billion
railways: 2,7 billion

*travel prestation:*

Roads: 142 billion km
Rail: 15,5 billion km

You do the math...


----------



## Svartmetall

H123Laci said:


> yeah, only fractions...
> (only fractions of the road income is given back to the roads...
> the big portion goes to the PT (crossfinancing) and other social expenditure...)
> 
> do you want to balance out Chris' objectivity with your prejudice? :lol:


Chris is hardly objective in his presentation of "facts" either, mate. How many peer reviewed journal articles have you read on transport and societal benefits of a properly integrated approach to infrastructure? 

I would ask you to read these for starters:

Mark Vugt. 1995. Car Versus Public Transportation? The Role of Social Value Orientations in a Real-Life Social Dilemma. Journal of Applied Social Psychology 25:258-78

Sallis JF, Frank LD, Saelens BE, Kraft MK. 2004. Active transportation and physical activity: opportunities for collaboration on transportation and public health research. Transportation Research Part A: Policy and Practice 38:249-68

Ian S. 1998. Ecological effects of roads and traffic: a literature review. Global Ecology & Biogeography 7:317-33

Hesse M. 1995. Urban space and logistics: on the road to sustainability? World Transport Policy and Practice 1:39-45

J. S D. 1986. Benefits of Changes in Urban Public Transport Subsidies in the Major Australian Cities*. The Economic Record 62:224-35

These articles all have helped to shape my views on public transport vs road transport. Not only this, but the essays that I have written on sustainability and the implementation of road-user charging for a paper which I took at Uni (yes, extramurally from my normal studies) have led me to the conclusion that a more balanced and pragmatic approach than simply "cars = desirable therefore greater capacity = good" needs to be taken. But hey, continue to debate with me if you wish. Post highly scientific newspaper stories with more media bias than I can shake a stick at if you wish.



ChrisZwolle said:


> *In the Netherlands:*
> 
> Income from road-related taxes: 14,5 billion (excluding VAT/sales tax)
> National budget: 179 billion
> roads: 2,8 billion
> railways: 2,7 billion
> 
> *travel prestation:*
> 
> Roads: 142 billion km
> Rail: 15,5 billion km
> 
> You do the math...


Good for the Netherlands then I guess! The same can't be said for other countries, like New Zealand for one. Out of our council rates which we pay based upon our house value, 20% goes towards roading improvements, whereas 4% goes towards health! The ephemeral term "Democracy" in our rates breakdown manages to get more funding than health at 5%! :lol:

Public transport on the other hand gets a very small percentage of our council rates at 4% going towards PT! Something tells me that this is overwhelmingly shifted towards subsidising the road user.

Also, have you factored in all of the other things associated with road and PT? The health implications of all the crashes, the policing, the societal impact? Of course not! You've just posted a figure for road maintenance rather than taking into account any hidden costs associated with each mode.

In 2003, 1.2 million people died worldwide on the roads (Suri et al 2004). The economic implication of this is $512 billion directly. Ouch.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Svartmetall said:


> Also, have you factored in all of the other things associated with road and PT? The health implications of all the crashes, the policing, the societal impact? Of course not! You've just posted a figure for road maintenance rather than taking into account any hidden costs associated with each mode.


So? I didn't incorporate healt insurance and car insurance either. It's extremely difficult to calculate those costs exactly. The hidden costs can be anything, up to extra absence on work because people sleep bad because of freeway or railway noise.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Svartmetall said:


> In 2003, 1.2 million people died worldwide on the roads (Suri et al 2004). The economic implication of this is $512 billion directly. Ouch.


That's barely an argument, people die of anything, smoking, eating big macs, work accidents, flooding, hurricane etc.


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Of course it's an argument. Certain things have a greater burden on a society, and road transport is one of those that can have a direct figure attached to it based upon instant fatalities. It's far harder to attribute numbers and cash values to chronic incidents (smoking or eating a big mac to use your examples), but for an acute event (being hit by a car), it's easy to tally up the economics. Plus, unlike a hurricane, modulating our use of private vehicles is something that society can control. 

Anyway, I'm really taking this thread off on a tangent. It's obvious that no matter what is said by academics it won't matter a jot, so I'll just let you say what you like.

EDIT: One thing you might find interesting though, since you cited Atlanta as an example... Go to Google Scholar and search for "The Planned City: Coping with Decentralization: an American Perspective" - it's an interesting read.


----------



## H123Laci

Svartmetall said:


> The same can't be said for other countries, like New Zealand for one. Out of our council rates which we pay based upon our house value, 20% goes towards roading improvements, whereas 4% goes towards health! The ephemeral term "Democracy" in our rates breakdown manages to get more funding than health at 5%! :lol:
> 
> Public transport on the other hand gets a very small percentage of our council rates at 4% going towards PT! Something tells me that this is overwhelmingly shifted towards subsidising the road user.


well, I dont know your tax system, but I presume there are not only "house tax" but there are fuel tax, vehicle tax, salary tax, sales tax, etc...

so this tax is only one of the taxes...

in case of "house tax" (which is a local income for the local government) the 20% for roads, and 4% for PT seems OK for me.

think about it: 
the PT BUSES, the police, the firefighters, the ambulance, the trash-lorries... ALL of them use the roads of the city...

or do you want to build tracks on every street?


----------



## Svartmetall

The council tax is indeed our "house tax" so to speak. We also have a "registration" to pay on our vehicles every year, though this amount really is nominal, and yes we have a "sales tax" - the GST (Goods and services tax). Our fuel tax is too low to fund road improvements, hence why we need to contribute so much with our council rates (which are quite high). The fuel tax also only goes to fund "Transit" - the government portion of roading, meaning only our state highways are maintained by our fuel tax, not our local roads. 

20% for roads, 4% for health - this is more my complaint than the amount spent on PT compared to roads. Our health system is collapsing in this part of the city (everyone is in corridors all the time and our maternity wards are dangerously overcrowded), but our roads are resurfaced, expanded and money is pumped into them all the time. Just recently $1.2 billion worth of road will be constructed as a flyover, demolishing 150 houses. Sounds like value for money to me! :crazy:

We spend a lot on roads because we sprawl - something that Chris was advocating with his use of Atlanta as an example. 

Anyway, like I said in my post to Chris above, I'm sorry for taking this off on a tangent. I've offered for him to debate with me many times via PM so we don't clog threads, but he never takes me up on that :lol:. But I'll throw the offer out to you if you want to continue this discussion.


----------



## H123Laci

^^ hmmm... I think I see your problem...

here in europe the situation is totally different:
here are extremely huge taxes on fuel and vehicles, it creates an enormous income which significantly surpasses (many times) the expenditures on the roads...

and despite this we have overcrowded, bad conditioned roads...
(there are some exceptions, eg: spain, portugal, but they are using EU money for they big road projects)

(health care is a different story....
eg. in hungary there is a separate "health care tax" on the salary, so if we would like more money to the health care, we should have to pay more "health care tax"...)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In order to let these monsters eat the earth, they have started with the rerouting of the A4 Autobahn between Aachen and Köln.


----------



## H123Laci

^^ wow, thats brutal...

will they demolish Manheim and Morschenich?? :nuts:

not far away a short section of the A44 was demolished too...

here in hungary there is a similar relocation: a 5km long section of main road no. 3 was relocated to make room for open pit mining...


----------



## keber

H123Laci said:


> will they demolish Manheim and Morschenich?? :nuts:


Probably, such relocations don't happen in China only.


----------



## radi6404

I returned to Germanytry to take the tet for the American university in Bulgaria again and mainly to work in these months til christmas. I loved the fact that in Bayern they only use the Struma motorway type of crashbarriers, well at least where I was in Oberbayern. I was also amazed by the finished section of A8 motorway near Augsburg it was 10 km long or so and it looked great. It had very shiny crashbarriers of the Bulgarian type which made the motorway look even better. I didn´t take pics of it because I was too lazy to take out the camera so I wanted ask if I can find pics of this amazing section.


----------



## Timon91

Radi, lazy you!!! :clown:
If the crashbarriers were that nice, I'd expect you to take pictures


----------



## radi6404

^^ I wasn´t fast enough to get the camera out of the sack. I regret very much that I don´t have pics of it now. Only thing I don´t understand is why they don´t have cateyes on German crashbarriers, I thought it´s standart for euopre but it seems it isn´t. Even the very new mirror crashbarriers on that stretch didn´t have cateyes.


----------



## Verso

radi6404 said:


> I wanted ask


I wanted *to* ask

One interesting thing about PT is that sometimes it's so crowded you can't even get on bus. :lol: That's what I think of when they advertise themselves. It happens on just two bus lines here, but they happen to be the ones I'd use, if I went by bus.


----------



## HAWC1506

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can't just limit a freeway to 2x3 lanes no matter what. For instance, in your area, nearly all north-south traffic centers around Seattle, because there are extensive suburban areas both north and south of Seattle. All traffic comes together around downtown. I'd rather have one major freeway of 12 lanes, than say 2 or 3 2x3 freeways 1 or 2 miles apart. However, on the larger perspective (metro area) it's better to have several freeways to make the network more robust in case of incidents. The I-405 is an example of that.
> 
> Traffic wise, it's best to spread out the number of worklocations, so you have less massive commuter flows on freeways, and preferrably both ways. I know that's not the best idea for most skyline enthousiasts (including me), but traffic wise it's better to have more work locations in the suburbs. Some US metro area's are doing a good job that way, for instance Atlanta.


I-405 is one of the worst-congested highways in Washington State. There's a project on the SR99 viaduct replacement, during which I-5 will receive the bulk of SR99 traffic. So to help ease congestion, WSDOT is having extra buses. I don't think they would be doing that if public transportation doesn't help ease congestion.

Then also, Seattle is a very commercially-oriented city. There are barely any places to live compared to places to work, which is a huge problem because people have to commute to Seattle to work but they live in Issaquah, Bellevue, Federal Way, etc. Bellevue is doing a much better job creating a balance between commercial and residential and thus you don't even need to drive to go buy food.

I love cars and highways, but America has to go a different direction and not be so car-centric. IMHO.


----------



## radi6404

what you mean verso? I came with some Blagoevgrad friends who drive the route every week and bring Bulgarians from Blagoevgrad to where they say, they leave with 2 or 3 cars from blagoevgrad, VW Sharan mostly and it´s always great since the people must be delivered to different places always and I get to see new towns and roads and landscape. sometimes I go by bus too, and I love long journeys, travelling is my life, it is by far the best thing I know to do and I hope I can find a job where I have to travel long jounreys. And I would always go by road, only if I had to travel more than once a week. airplane is way too fast and the stories in the news lately doesn´t really sound save anyway.


----------



## HAWC1506

ChrisZwolle said:


> But did public transit solve any congestion problems in traffic jam-ridden cities? Look at New York for instance. It has a massive PT usage, yet the traffic jams are one of the worst in the country. Ofcourse, it would be far worse without public transit, so I believe it's a reciprocity of both modalities. Coincidentally, they just released new figures of commutertraffic patterns in the Netherlands. We are known for extensive PT, yet only 1 out of 10 commuters uses public transport. source in dutch
> There's a reason why people chose their cars over public transit, and that reason is not only the stereotypically "lazyness" or "old habits".



New York, Los Angeles, and many large American cities have very poor public transportation systems and they are poorly planned. Many don't take you to places that you want to go. Sometimes, it's also a capacity problem. Tokyo on the other hand, does very well and that is exactly why carmakers are beginning to lose sales in Japan because people just don't have the need to drive anymore. Good public transportation can take you where you want to go fast, and on-time. Which is good, because for those of us who love cars, we don't have to deal with as many people on the highway :]

Tokyo Highway Network:










Tokyo Subway Network:










New York Highway Network:










New York Subway Network:










It all depends on the city planning. In Germany, I'm sure there is a great network of highways, but in some countries, highways just can't be the only thing we rely on. :] haha great inputs from everyone. I was gone for one day and boom two new pages...


----------



## radi6404

Are we talking here about German motorways or about tokyo metro? Now everything I said is hidden from other users because noone goes back a page to see what others have written in this case I of German motorways.


----------



## HAWC1506

radi6404 said:


> ^^ I wasn´t fast enough to get the camera out of the sack. I regret very much that I don´t have pics of it now. Only thing I don´t understand is why they don´t have cateyes on German crashbarriers, I thought it´s standart for euopre but it seems it isn´t. Even the very new mirror crashbarriers on that stretch didn´t have cateyes.


Cateyes on crashbarriers? I've seen reflector posts next to crash barriers but not cateyes.


----------



## goschio

ChrisZwolle said:


> In order to let these monsters eat the earth, they have started with the rerouting of the A4 Autobahn between Aachen and Köln.


How can this be possible in Germany? Every little expansions of airports causes protests from all sites because of some little bat or rare rodent and there they destroy the landscape on a large scale. Where is the green party, greenpeace and all the other eco hippies?


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## HAWC1506

^^Are those...oil refineries???


----------



## keber

goschio said:


> How can this be possible in Germany? Every little expansions of airports causes protests from all sites because of some little bat or rare rodent and there they destroy the landscape on a large scale. Where is the green party, greenpeace and all the other eco hippies?


Apparently coal mining companies give much more money to local population than the state.:lol:


----------



## H123Laci

^^ hmmm... that's a really convincing explanation... :hahaha:


----------



## keber

Actually it is quite true.:cheers:

Private companies are usually more generous at paying compensations than state. Time is money.


----------



## Patrick

radi6404 said:


> I returned to Germanytry to take the tet for the American university in Bulgaria again and mainly to work in these months til christmas. I loved the fact that in Bayern they only use *A-profile* crashbarriers (*same as in Bulgaria*), well at least where I was in Oberbayern. I was also amazed by the finished section of A8 motorway near Augsburg it was 10 km long or so and it looked great. It had very shiny crashbarriers of the *A-profile* type which made the motorway look even better. I didn´t take pics of it because I was too lazy to take out the camera so I wanted ask if I can find pics of this amazing section.


there isn't a "bulgarian type" of barriers, just a-profile, b-profile and concrete barrier 
Hm...I haven't found any new pics of these at the established Autobahn websites.


----------



## Patrick

goschio said:


> How can this be possible in Germany? Every little expansions of airports causes protests from all sites because of some little bat or rare rodent and there they destroy the landscape on a large scale. Where is the green party, greenpeace and all the other eco hippies?


once they are done there, they usually renaturate the area. and example is the nearby Indeland (http://www.indeland.de/home/index.php) where they have longterm plans to reactivate the area.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I made some pics of Tagebau Inden last year, which is not far away from Hambach.


----------



## radi6404

Patrick said:


> there isn't a "bulgarian type" of barriers, just a-profile, b-profile and concrete barrier
> Hm...I haven't found any new pics of these at the established Autobahn websites.


Ok from now on I will call them A-profile. Just didn´t know how to call them, anyway it was concrete in the middle and A profile at the sides. I hope the motorway will not age very fast but they do.


----------



## SeanT

Is it really true at there is only 1 motorway in Bulgaria(Struma)???


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## radi6404

Now, that´s bullshit, there are 6 motorways in Bulgaria. And a few in construction


----------



## PLH




----------



## Patrick

wow, it's the first time I see that a A647 seems to have existed
http://images48.fotosik.pl/11/52059faf2c048558m.jpg
well, nowadays, it is numbered as B8. Gelbe Autobahn.


----------



## H123Laci

radi6404 said:


> Now, that´s bullshit, there are 6 motorways in Bulgaria. And a few in construction


well, according to your signature there couldn't be 6 motorways in bulgaria, 'cause only the struma is a "real" motorway, "the other motorways are just not motorways." :lol:


----------



## Timon91

And even Struma is nothing more than a regular expressway


----------



## Morsue

In Swedish, struma is a disease (in English called goitre).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitre


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## ABRob

radi6404 said:


> I was also amazed by the finished section of A8 motorway near Augsburg it was 10 km long or so and it looked great.


Sorry, but there is no 10 km finished section of A8 motorway arund Augsburg...
The A8 Augsburg - Munich wil be rebuild in 2010:









Hmmm...
Or do you mean the section between Ulm and Günzburg (Legoland )?











goschio said:


> How can this be possible in Germany? Every little expansions of airports causes protests from all sites because of some little bat or rare rodent and there they destroy the landscape on a large scale. Where is the green party, greenpeace and all the other eco hippies?


There are a lot of 'eco hippies' (nice term ): In German
Inhabitants of Buir and the 'BUND' went to the Federal Administrative Court (Bundesverwaltungsgericht) to take action against it.

But this is to necessary for the german energy security, than that they can stop it...


----------



## HD

that's absolutely amazing - a huge no man's land in the middle of one of the densest parts of europe. I wonder how much it costs to relocate so many kilometers of a motorway...


:nuts:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/common/0/06/Surface_Mining_Hambach_200800806.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/f/fd/Braunkohlenfloetz_hambach.jpg


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## radi6404

ABRob, yes I meant that section, that section is finished and looks awesome.


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## Timon91

Deep dark asphalt, thick markings, 2×3, nice crashbarriers


----------



## Verso

^ Heaven on earth! :lol:


----------



## radi6404

Timon91 said:


> Deep dark asphalt, thick markings, 2×3, nice crashbarriers


On the picture it looks very bad aktually, but yesterday it looked as amazing as the Struma motorway when it was new, can be seen on the pics of bgrs. It was very clean and the markings were amazing.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/909/picture163qu6.jpg

http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s07de7.jpg

the A-profile crashbarriers of the A8 stretch were as shiny as those crashbarriers, the right ones of the Struma motorway and as it was cloudy yesterday they were grey. It was a trip.


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## Timon91

Oh radi, they are so shiny, my eyes start hurting :rofl:
btw: regarding your last sentence, were you tripping?


----------



## Verso

radi6404 said:


> http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/909/picture163qu6.jpg


OMG, this dust is horrible! Is this Struma?


----------



## Patrick

could we please stick to the original topic?


----------



## radi6404

Verso said:


> OMG, this dust is horrible! Is this Struma?


No you fool, it is the skopie bybass from where this picture is. How can you ask such questions when you have seen 100 pics of the Struma motorway. 

"btw: regarding your last sentence, were you tripping? "

Timon, ofcourse I was tripping as I am always tripping when I see very new motorways or roads that looked like untouched and are shiny, and that´s not a joke. I get great feelings from them.


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## Verso

Radi's insulting again. :| How am I supposed to know it's Skopje? We've all seen dust on Struma.


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## radi6404

Because you should know already how the Struma motorway looks. That it doesn´t have grass in the middle and that the asphalt looks good and new, not that crappy.


----------



## xlchris

Germany has a weird set-up of it's highways. You can see many highways in the Ruhr Area and around Frankfurt, Munchen and Berlin. Nice to see!


----------



## Timon91

^^Why is that weird? It normal there are more highways close to cities than in rural areas.


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## PLH

^^ This immpression may result from the fact that Autobahn has a very wide meaning(i.e. speed limits from 60km/h to 407km/h)


----------



## Timon91

^^I see.
Btw, you can go faster than 407 km/h, you just need a car which is able to do that on a quiet sunday morning


----------



## HAWC1506

Timon91 said:


> ^^I see.
> Btw, you can go faster than 407 km/h, you just need a car which is able to do that on a quiet sunday morning


I'm guessing the 407 km/h figure is from the Bugatti Veyron? That was done on Volkswagen's test track though, not the Autobahn haha


----------



## Timon91

The Dutch speed violation record has been set on the Afsluitdijk. Somewhere in an early sunday morning someone drove by with a stunning 320 km/h, AFAIK. Yesterday a motorcyclist violated the speed limit with 146 km/h when he was driving 226 km/h on an 80-road. His license was taken by the police. What a surprise


----------



## HAWC1506

Timon91 said:


> The Dutch speed violation record has been set on the Afsluitdijk. Somewhere in an early sunday morning someone drove by with a stunning 320 km/h, AFAIK. Yesterday a motorcyclist violated the speed limit with 146 km/h when he was driving 226 km/h on an 80-road. His license was taken by the police. What a surprise


I believe Washington state had a motorcyclist ride 150 mph down I-5.


----------



## HAWC1506

I just found out that an HOV lane project for I-90 has been pushed back. Right now a westbound HOV lane has just been added on Mercer Island, but the eastbound lane, originally planed for 2009-2011 is pushed back to:






2018-2023.hno:






Where's our moneyyy!?!??!?


----------



## keber

And this has what sort of important meaning to Germany?:shifty:


----------



## Timon91

Maybe Germany wants to construct a bridge from Hamburg to Washington State?  Just posted in the wrong thread......
How's the A14 between Magdeburg and Schwerin progressing? I thought it was the next major motorway connection to be completed after they finished the A20.


----------



## HD

HAWC1506 said:


> I've seen only one in the U.S., out of my entire 10 years of living here. It's verrryyyy rare. I suspect that it's rare in Europe also. It's one of the worst-selling cars in Britain.


there are quite many of them in germany. they were not as successfull, as anticipated by VW though.


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## PLH

^^ No wonder - this cas is sooo boring, perfect and reliable that only Germans could have bought it


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## HD

let's put it another way: only germans have the money for useless cars.


----------



## ABRob

Timon91 said:


> How's the A14 between Magdeburg and Schwerin progressing?


After the costs raised from 775 million EUR to 1278 million EUR they decided to build it in stages:








red: stage 1 until 2015 (costs 775 million EUR)
green: stage 2 until 2020 
blue: stage 3 after 2020

Originally they wanted to build the whole A14 until 2015.


----------



## Timon91

It's too bad we have to wait long. I see some future plans for A25 and A32 on your map, ABRob, do you know anything about that?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What's up with all those excessive cost increases lately? Not a few % but, hoppa, 40 - 50%.


----------



## Timon91

^^We're used to that in the Netherlands. Often it's the case that the engineers have to estimate the cost of a project. If they estimate what it's really going to cost, the project might not get through because it is considered as too expensive. When you estimate the cost of the project relatively low, the project has a bigger chance of getting through. By the time it turns out that it's going to get way more expensive, the construction already started and there is no way back.


----------



## ABRob

Timon91 said:


> It's too bad we have to wait long. I see some future plans for A25 and A32 on your map, ABRob, do you know anything about that?


Grey means abandoned plans, yellow are future plans!



ChrisZwolle said:


> What's up with all those excessive cost increases lately? Not a few % but, hoppa, 40 - 50%.


Well - originally they calculated with the costs per km of the Magdeburg-Halle stretch - but since then there are new environmental laws etc.


----------



## HAWC1506

keber said:


> And this has what sort of important meaning to Germany?:shifty:


Yeah wrong thread...lol my baddddd


----------



## 909

I have some pictures, made one week ago, from the German Autobahn towards the former capital Bonn. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong! 


01) Entering the Autobahn Kreuz Oberhausen in the Ruhr Area. Quite remarkable is the fact that this interschange is the place where Autobahnen 2 and 516 starts while the A3 continues towards Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Cologne etc. It's an TOTSO (Turn off to stay on) interchange.











02) The A3 somewhere near Duisburg.











03)











04) The yellow bridgde was used during the 1958 Brussels World’s Fair. It's located near the 'urban forest', just south-east of Duisburg. 











05) Notice the licenseplate.











06) Entering Kreuz Hilden, which has a trafficvolume of some 115.000 cars per day.











07) Can someone explain me what the meaning is of the white signs with an arrow and _Koln_ above the blue ones?











08) This section of the A3 is part of the Kölner Autobahnring (Cologne Beltway). This is with 165.000 cars/day the busiest section in the region and one of the busiest in Germany. Only the A100 in Berlin handels more traffic a day.











09) This is also the A3, but this picture was made on the way back home. 











10) I believe this is a part of the *A59*, somewhere south of Cologne. 











11)











12) An average of 110,000 vehicles per day surpassing the intersection of the A59 and A565.











13) Crossing the river Rhine in the city Bonn via the Friedrich-Ebert-Bridge.











14) The A59 once again.


----------



## Mateusz

This amount is meant probably only for certain section of road... it is still quite a lot


----------



## Patrick

enschede-er said:


> they're 82 milion people in germanny ,, thats a lot people and there's only 165.000 cars on a day? no thats not posible i have road it 1000 times and i have seen how many cars its not normal


there are 165.000 vehicles per day on that stretch between Köln-Ost and Köln-Dellbrück (in both directions).


----------



## city_thing

Svartmetall said:


> The motorways I describe in Auckland tend to have very busy arterial roads adjacent to them and all of them are urban motorways cutting right through the city (much like the situation seen in America).
> 
> The amount of choice of travel in Germany is impressive though be it public transport or road based. *Good on you Germans*.


Amen.

Germany is a brilliant nation. I'd move there in a second.


----------



## Timon91

enschede-er said:


> they're 82 milion people in germanny ,, thats a lot people and there's only 165.000 cars on a day? no thats not posible i have road it 1000 times and i have seen how many cars its not normal


There are loads of cars in Germany, but what we're talking about is a certain stretch of Autobahn


----------



## Svartmetall

enschede-er said:


> they're 82 milion people in germanny ,, thats a lot people and there's only 165.000 cars on a day? no thats not posible i have road it 1000 times and i have seen how many cars its not normal


To put this simply for you...

Your response is what we like to call an anecdotal and has little factual basis. Average daily traffic has nothing to do with the number of people in a country specifically, more the number of people that:

#1. Drive
#2. Drive down that particular stretch of road
#3. Are driving down that section of road at a given timepoint.
#4. Have to use that road due to a lack of alternatives.
#5. Any other reason that might adversely impact on traffic volumes.

If a road experiences constant traffic 22 hours of the day, then traffic volumes will seem less when compared to a road that sees a huge peak in traffic for 6 hours of the day but is relatively quiet for the rest of the day despite having a similar average daily usage. Thus perception and anecdotal evidence are inadmissible when considering a serious analysis of traffic volumes. 

Considering the busiest road in Germany (I believe it is the A100 in Berlin) only carries ~200,000+ a day in each direction, one has to believe that traffic volumes on a given Autobahn in Germany tend to be less than seen in other countries due to the variety of choice in travel (be it by railway or by road). 

Please feel free to look up the actual statistics rather than just listen to every other German forumer quote them back at you and have you spew unsubstantiated reports at them in return.


----------



## 909

ChrisZwolle said:


> A drive on the A31 Autobahn (...) a road that's known for speeding.


Indeed...


----------



## radi6404

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A31 Autobahn Meppen - Leer*
> 
> A drive on the A31 Autobahn in northwestern Germany. From Exit Meppen with the B402 to Interchange Dreieck Bunde with the A280, a distance of 50 kilometers. This is a road that's known for speeding, though there was little traffic this day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *link to High Quality*


The asphalt is old. and it´s laughable that the car on the video break during recording, how bad for mercedes.


----------



## enschede-er

In bulgaria roads are better? sure sure , holland as te most motorways for a little country in te world.


----------



## radi6404

Who is talking about Bulgaria, why do you always think when I say something is bad that I think Bulgaria is better, do you think I am that dumb and always compare with Bulgaria, ti doesn´t matter where it is, it can be in the richest coutry in the world, the asphalt would still be old! There are better and worse roads than on this video in Bulgaria.


----------



## Timon91

Every country has it's own bad roads, even Germany, Bulgaria and the Netherlands.


----------



## Maxx☢Power

That's the first time I've seen Radi write something sensible.


----------



## 909

radi6404 said:


> The asphalt is old. and it´s laughable that the car on the video break during recording, how bad for mercedes.


The oldest part of the Autobahn in the video, the A31 dates back till the '80s. I don't know what the lifespan of asphalt is, but this could explain a lot.
And the car isn't a Mercedes, it's a Brabus Rocket. I wouldn't call it laugable, it is the result of extreme power and new technologies so breaking down is not a suprise. This car is based on the Mercedes CLS, but with a power of 730 hp, a torque of 1,320 Nm (electronically limited to 1,100 Nm) and a topspeed of 366 km/h (227 mph) it is the world fastest streetlegal sedan. With a pricetag of €348,000 (without taxes!) this car could be yours. Driving on the Autobahn wouldn't be the same anymore.


----------



## Verso

I didn't get what Radi wanted to say with that car. Which car, what?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The car (Brabus) gets a breakdown at the Autobahn after driving quite fast.


----------



## Verso

Where do you guys see any broken-down car?  Which second?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not in my video, but in the one 909 posted. Where the car turns into a rest area (raststätte)


----------



## Verso

Oh, _that_ video. I didn't watch it for long.


----------



## Sarcasm

So how fast were you going on that strech?



ChrisZwolle said:


> *A31 Autobahn Meppen - Leer*
> 
> A drive on the A31 Autobahn in northwestern Germany. From Exit Meppen with the B402 to Interchange Dreieck Bunde with the A280, a distance of 50 kilometers. This is a road that's known for speeding, though there was little traffic this day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *link to High Quality*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

About 140 km/h or 87 miles per hour.


----------



## Timon91

Hard work for a Kangoo :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not really. It accelerates well above 130 km/h for a cargo van, but because the fuel lines cannot supply more fuel it cannot reach very high speeds. Which is good for fuel consumption  Top speed still gets about 15 km / liter or 35 mpg.


----------



## Timon91

That's quite good. The fuel consumption of the Prius rises exponentially when you get over 120 km/h. The fuel consumption is quite dependent on the mass, by the way. When we get 5L/100km on a normal ride, we get 6.5L/100km when we have the bikes on the back of the car. That's also why it's not possible to get a small wagon behind your car for a Prius, it just can't handle it.


----------



## HAWC1506

Timon91 said:


> That's quite good. The fuel consumption of the Prius rises exponentially when you get over 120 km/h. The fuel consumption is quite dependent on the mass, by the way. When we get 5L/100km on a normal ride, we get 6.5L/100km when we have the bikes on the back of the car. That's also why it's not possible to get a small wagon behind your car for a Prius, it just can't handle it.


Priuses are overrated IMHO.


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, they are. A new diesel car is better and more fuel efficient.


----------



## pmaciej7

A11 reconstruction at last. Worst section of german motorways will become history in 2 years :banana:. Sorry for bad quality of pictures, but with these weather conditions, this was best i could do.

They started one month ago on carriageway leading to Berlin, 2-3 km behind exit Schmölln (see on the map). In next stage this exit will also be closed and reconstructed.



























































































Bridge Lützlow-Kleinow. 






















































Some pictures from bridge. Direction Szczecin.









Direction Berlin.


----------



## Timon91

Thanks for the pics, pmaciej 
Finally it's happening. And very necessary, regarding the pics. Will they also construct shoulders?


----------



## RipleyLV

Didn't they start reconstructing A11 in 2001 or 2002? I remember driving there and some sections where already under construction.


----------



## Timon91

Probably some other sections. The A11 was like this for the entire length AFAIK, so they've already done a big part of it. This is one stretch that they just didn't start with, until now


----------



## pmaciej7

Timon91 said:


> Will they also construct shoulders?


They will do it for sure. Just look, how wide new road will be: http://images44.fotosik.pl/31/fdf2a973d89f07c7.jpg 

They also construct new shoulders (with exitramps reconstruction) on section near Joachimstal exit. Pics were posted here.


----------



## Timon91

And what about the lanes? They seemed quite narrow to me, will they widen them?


----------



## pmaciej7

This picture shows, how wide old lanes are. New ones probably will also be that wide.


----------



## Timon91

Because of the lacking shoulders, it probably just seemed like they were too narrow


----------



## pmaciej7

I think that's the reason. For me it also seemed narrow, especialy lanes on opposite-to-driven carriageway. I drove this road many times and always had that stupid feeling.


----------



## Verso

Interesting pics! Finally this crap is going out. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They probably look narrow because the German road markings are twice the width as in other countries.


----------



## Timon91

Radi would love it :lol:


----------



## ABRob

Both lanes of the old A11 are 3.75m wide, thats the normal width of motorway lanes in Germany.
So the lanes of the reconstructed A11 will not be wider.


----------



## Timon91

Thanks for the confirmation, Rob


----------



## HAWC1506

ChrisZwolle said:


> They probably look narrow because the German road markings are twice the width as in other countries.


I wish American roads had wide markings...Do you think wider markings are easier to see in heavy weather situations? And also are the side edge lines about 30 cm wide?


----------



## mgk920

Is this the very last true unrebuilt 'drive into the pre-WWII past' left on Germany's autobahn network? That bare concrete is 70 years old, isn't it?



Amazing what the DDR Commies all didn't do with the system before 1990.

Mike


----------



## Timon91

Svartmetall said:


> Perhaps I've just become very used to the poorer quality road surface we get here and have forgotten what a decent road surface looks like! :lol:


I know I've asked this before, but has Obama said he is going to do something about the bad roads?


----------



## PLH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Stettin? Wasn't that in Poland?  Oh no, that's Szczecin


After WWII several Autohofs were named after lost german cities: Stettin, Breslau, Kolberg, Königsberg and few others.


----------



## Robosteve

Those are some really great pictures, thanks. Sorry if I sound ignorant here - I've never traveled to continental Europe - but does the A2 have a speed limit, or are there some sections with speed limits and some without, or how does that work? The main reason I ask is that because even on the highest standard motorways around here, it isn't legal to drive faster than 110 km/h.hno: Continental Europe is one of the places I'd really like to visit whenever I have the time and money to travel, mostly because of the high speed motorways there. :cheers:


----------



## PLH

Robosteve said:


> but does the A2 have a speed limit, or are there some sections with speed limits and some without, or how does that work?


In general, speed limits are in places of very high traffic, tight turns, bigger junctions, located near cities(because of noise)

I'd search for a map

Agh, I can't find them...


----------



## 909

Robosteve said:


> does the A2 have a speed limit, or are there some sections with speed limits and some without, or how does that work?


Here you can find a map which shows all the Autobahns and their speedlimits. This map is taken from Autobahnatlas. But to answer your question, most parts of the A2 are without a speedlimit. Even in the Ruhr Area. 

How does it work? Well, as given in the previous post it depends on the amount of traffic. There are also some sections which are without a speedlimit, with the exception of 22.00 till 06.00, i assume because of the noise. To be honest, i don't follow those limits. 

Some information regarding speedlimits in Germany, taken from Wikipedia:



> German autobahns are famous for having no universal motorway speed limit, although about 30% of them have posted speed limits[16] and about 10% are equipped with motorway control systems that can show variable speed limits.[17] There is no national speed limit, either, for cars and motorcycles on any highway outside of towns if it has a central reservation or a minimum of two marked lanes per direction. On such roads, as well as motorways, a recommended speed limit (Richtgeschwindigkeit) of 130 km/h (80 mph) applies. While driving at higher speeds is not punishable, the increased risk induced by higher speeds (erhöhte Betriebsgefahr) may result in partial liability for damages. Moreover, the law forbids to travel at speeds that would prolong the vehicle's minimum halting distance beyond the driver's line of sight.[18] On all German roads, there are speed limits for trucks, buses, cars towing trailers, and small motorised vehicles (Mopeds, etc.).
> 
> The introduction of a national speed limit for motorways and similar roads has been on the agenda of various political and environmentalist groups for decades, but at present, there are still no definite plans on behalf of the federal government regarding the matter.
> 
> In 1973, in the wake of the oil crisis, a federal speed limit of 100 km/h on Autobahns was imposed to help conserve fuel for fear of impending future shortages (not for environmental or safety reasons). The measure only lasted from December 1973 to March 1974; while the administration and the Bundestag were in favor of keeping the speed limit, the Bundesrat pushed to repeal the law. As a compromise, a recommended speed was introduced on Autobahns and highways outside of built-up areas with a center divide or without a center divide and a continuous lane for overtaking in both directions". This law is basically still in effect today. Unrestricted non-Autobahn highways, however, have since become virtually non-existent or replaced by Schnellstraßen, Autobahn-like expressways typically limited of to 120 km/h and normally only covering a few kilometers.
> 
> The Umweltbundesamt (Federal Environmental Agency) repeated its recommendation of such regulation in early 2007, but the current Merkel administration sees no need for it. Even after a 2007 party congress held by the SPD, one of Germany's governing parties, where a proposal to impose a blanket speed limit was approved, there was outspoken opposition within the administration. At present, it is generally thought that a blanket speed limit would not be significantly beneficial, regarding both environmental and climate concerns and road safety. Current estimates conclude that a speed limit would reduce Germany's overall CO2 emission by a mere fraction of a percent, and in terms of highway safety, German Autobahns are among the world's safest.
> 
> Legally, however, state and even local authorities have the power to enact speed limits. A statewide binding speed limit of 130 km/h, for example, was established in Rhineland-Palatinate over a decade ago, whereas the district of Cologne has posted a speed limit on the heavily frequented Cologne Beltway. Effective April 9, 2008, Bremen began enforcing a general 120 kilometers per hour speed limit, citing environmental concerns. However, Bremen's new limit only impacted an additional 11 kilometers of Bremen's 60 kilometers of Autobahn [19]; most Brementown motorways already had some speed restriction due to congestion and noise. [20]
> 
> On rural roads that are neither motorways nor roads as described above, there is a national speed limit of 100 km/h (60 mph). Lower speed limits apply to lorries, some busses, and cars towing trailers.
> 
> There is a general speed limit within city limits, which are marked by distinctive rectangular yellow signs showing the name of the city, of 50 km/h (30 mph) but residential areas usually have a lower posted speed limit of 30 km/h (20 mph). On arterial roads, the speed limit may be raised to 60 or 70 km/h (37 to 43 mph). Motorways crossing cities count as normal Autobahns and can be used for travel within larger cities in many cases.
> 
> Minimum speeds are very rarely marked in Germany. Vehicles which cannot sustain speeds of 60 km/h are not allowed on the Autobahn, however.
> 
> In 2006, 57% of the German motorways had no speed limit at all. Roughly one third of regulated roads have computer-controlled traffic guiding systems with variable electronic signs along carriageways showing the set speed limit, or, current road conditions and traffic density allowing, indicating that no speed limit is set at the moment.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country#Germany


----------



## Timon91

When there's no limit, there is an _adviced_ speed limit of 130 km/h. If you're involved in an accident when driving faster than 130 km/h, and the others in the accident drove slower than 130 km/h, it's your fault AFAIK.


----------



## PLH

^^ Well, not you fault only, but you're also guilty.

And don't forget to learn one new word in German - Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung - speed limit. Repeat please


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Robosteve said:


> Those are some really great pictures, thanks. Sorry if I sound ignorant here - I've never traveled to continental Europe - but does the A2 have a speed limit, or are there some sections with speed limits and some without, or how does that work? The main reason I ask is that because even on the highest standard motorways around here, it isn't legal to drive faster than 110 km/h.hno: Continental Europe is one of the places I'd really like to visit whenever I have the time and money to travel, mostly because of the high speed motorways there. :cheers:


Here you go:
The map of speed limits: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/Limitkarte.pdf
And the legend: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/LegendeLimit_e.pdf

Edit: 909 already posted it...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

101. Exit Lemgo









102. Exit Herford/Bad Salzuflen.









103. Very clear signs imo.









104. Notice the U route (detour route in cases of traffic jams/closures)









105. Hannover is getting closer.









106. Rest area Herford.









107. Old narrow overpass.









108. Herford-Ost.









109. Rural Germany.









110. Yes, an Autobahnchurch! (Evangelical Autobahn Church)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

111. Exit Exter Exits here 









112. Nearing ABRob's land.









113. Still hilly terrain.









114. Exter bridge (165m above sealevel)









115. Berlin 365 kilometers.









116. View on the Weser Gap near Minden.









117. Interchange Bad Oeynhausen ahead (A30)









118. A30 ends very shortly east of this interchange. 









119. We could turn to the Netherlands here.









120. But we like to enjoy Germany a little longer


----------



## ChrisZwolle

121. Unusual German city name.









122. Minden is a somewhat larger city, but not very wellknown due to it's location somewhat further off the A2.









123. 80 km/h during rain. I doubt anybody really follows that.









124. Rest Area Fuchsgrund.









125. Exit Veltheim.









126. This is a minor exit.









127. Driving through the Weser Mountains.









128. Hilly terrain, but not for long.









129. The A2 winds through the hills.









130. Still heading east.









131. Touristic sign for Rinteln.









132. Heading into flatter terrain.









133. Exit Bad Eilsen ahead.









134. Nice view again.









135. This is my exit.









That's it folks! :cheers:


----------



## Timon91

Nice pics, Chris! What's your next roadtrip coming up?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'm thinking of heading down the Rhine somewhere in the spring. Driving to Mainz via A61/A60 and then heading up north via the B9 or B42.


----------



## 909

On pic #116 is the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Denkmal in Porta Westfalica visible, quite interesting to visit!


----------



## Robosteve

909 said:


> Here you can find a map which shows all the Autobahns and their speedlimits. This map is taken from Autobahnatlas. But to answer your question, most parts of the A2 are without a speedlimit. Even in the Ruhr Area.
> 
> How does it work? Well, as given in the previous post it depends on the amount of traffic. There are also some sections which are without a speedlimit, with the exception of 22.00 till 06.00, i assume because of the noise. To be honest, i don't follow those limits.


Thanks for that. Germany seems very well connected based on that map, although there does seem to be a disproportionate abundance of autobahns in the far west of the country.



Timon91 said:


> When there's no limit, there is an _adviced_ speed limit of 130 km/h. If you're involved in an accident when driving faster than 130 km/h, and the others in the accident drove slower than 130 km/h, it's your fault AFAIK.


I think I remember reading that somewhere before. It's an interesting concept; I think I prefer it to the strict enforcement of unnecessarily low speed limits they like to practise over here.



PLH said:


> And don't forget to learn one new word in German - Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzung - speed limit. Repeat please


I think I should probably begin with something a little bit simpler.:nuts::lol:



Rebasepoiss said:


> Here you go:
> The map of speed limits: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/Limitkarte.pdf
> And the legend: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/LegendeLimit_e.pdf
> 
> Edit: 909 already posted it...


Thanks for that; I was wondering where the legend was.


----------



## 909

Robosteve said:


> Thanks for that. Germany seems very well connected based on that map, although there does seem to be a disproportionate abundance of autobahns in the far west of the country.


That is not a suprise because that's where Germany's largest (and one of the largest in Europe too) urban area is: the Rhine-Ruhr, home to cities like Cologne, Dusseldorf and the Ruhr area.


----------



## PLH

Robosteve said:


> I think I should probably begin with something a little bit simpler.:nuts::lol:


There you go:

Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft 

Donau|dampfschif(f)|fahrts|elektrizitäten|haupt|betriebs|werkbau|unterbeamten|gesellschaft 



> "association of subordinate officials of the head office management of the Danube steamboat electrical services" (the name of a pre-war club in Vienna) - Not really useful, this word is more of a desperate attempt to lengthen the word below.


It's quite hard for me to read, but not impossible I suppose also native German speakers have problems with that. 
*
-------------------*

As for the speed limits - is anuthing new known about possible introduction of obligatory 130 km/h?


----------



## Timon91

^^I bet that some people would like it, but most of the ideas are pushed back because of the "freedom of the driver" or sth, and that a German driver has the right to drive whatever speed he wants.

Oh, just one more thing: I just love the German language


----------



## PLH

Timon91 said:


> that a German driver has the right to drive whatever speed he wants


I just love when they are deliberately blocking the left lane when on a speed limit... 

Even if your wife was just about to bring forth, or you best friend to bleed to death, you'll not pass :nuts:


----------



## pijanec

I have never encounter that on autobahn and I made a lot of kms there. They are very good drivers and have good manners so they always make you space to overtake. Not to mention that deliberate blocking/driving on left lane is illegal (unless overtaking).


----------



## 909

PLH said:


> As for the speed limits - is anuthing new known about possible introduction of obligatory 130 km/h?


As far as i know, there are no plans for the introduction of a nationwide speedlimit on the German Autobahn. But this issue is an ongoing public debate, but there isn't a (political) majority who wants to impose a speedlimit. 

The current minister of transport Wolfgang Tiefensee (SPD) suggested once that it would be good to reduce the carbon dioxide emissions by imposing a speedlimit. It's well known that environmentalists and some leftwing politicians would like to see a speedlimit, but it's less known that this wouldn't result in major changes regarding pollution. It has been calculated that a maximumspeed of 130 km/h would result in a decline of 0.3% of the entire CO2-emission of Germany. Germany is worldwide the 38th country when it comes down to carbon dioxide emissions per capita, which is suprisingly low for an industrial powerhouse. As we can see, the enviromental impact of the lack of a speedlimit is very small, perhaps unnoticable.

Even the previous coalition of the SDU and Greens failed to impose a maximumspeed. Gerhard Schröder called Germany an _Autofahrernation_ (a nation of drivers) to point out the fact that a speed limit would not be generally accepted by the public. 
In May 2008 the large coalition of SPD and CDU as well as the FDP rejected the introduction of a speed limit of 130 km/h. To put it simply: Merkel said _Nein!_.
In contrast the support of leftwing politicians, there is also the important and powerful lobby of VDA (_Verband der Automobilindustrie_, a German interest group of the German automobile industry), AVD (Germany's oldest automobile club), ADAC (Germany's and Europe's largest automobile club), Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Opel, etc. is against a speedlimit. They and many Germans even suggest _Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger_, which could be interpretated like 'free speeds for free people'.

The overall safety record of German autobahns is generally better than other European highways. So, safety could be an issue but there is not direct correlation between the safetyrecord and the lack of a speedlimits. Countries like France or Spain are losing more people on the road despite their smaller population.
So, i think it is safe to conclude that there won't be a maximumspeed imposed on the Autobahns. I would like to see the German system extended over some European countries (if possible).


----------



## Timon91

I don't think that there could be much no-limit roads in the Netherlands, for example. Perhaps the A7 on some stretches (Afsluitdijk and east of Groningen), but in order to handle it properly, you need 2×3 or a very quiet 2×2. And of course on some roads there are just too much trucks to handle it. And finally, there are always NIMBY's complaining about noise pollution.

But in bigger countries, like Poland, France and Italy it should be possible. However, in Poland it already looks like there is no speed limit


----------



## 909

PLH said:


> I just love when they are deliberately blocking the left lane when on a speed limit...


Are you sure they weren't Dutch?


----------



## 909

Timon91 said:


> I don't think that there could be much no-limit roads in the Netherlands, for example. (...) are always NIMBY's complaining about noise pollution.
> 
> But in bigger countries, like Poland, France and Italy it should be possible. However, in Poland it already looks like there is no speed limit


Yeah, Ukraine, Poland and the Czech Republic are countries were I have driven like there wasn't a speedlimit. Go with the flow! I assume this could also be the case in Italy. 

But in the Netherlands it wouldn't work, most roads are too busy and the leftwing sentiments are powerful here. But roads like the A37 would be perfect for no-limit.

BTW: I heard some rumours about imposing a maximumspeed of 160 in the Czech republic, Slovakia and Austria. Is this true?


----------



## pijanec

909 said:


> As far as i know, there are no plans for the introduction of a nationwide speedlimit on the German Autobahn. But this issue is an ongoing public debate, but there isn't a (political) majority who wants to impose a speedlimit.


Not to mention the loss of image of german car manufacturers and connected industries. "Autobahn ready" is heavily marketed abroad and buyers of german products trust those words. If they introduce speed limit autobahn will become just ordinary motorway.



909 said:


> BTW: I heard some rumours about imposing a maximumspeed of 160 in the Czech republic, Slovakia and Austria. Is this true?


In new law Slovakia introduces the option of 160 km/h speed limit on some stretches of motorways. In Austria environmentalists are too strong so I guess it can't be introduced.


----------



## 909

pijanec said:


> Not to mention the loss of image of german car manufacturers and connected industries. "Autobahn ready" is heavily marketed abroad and buyers of german products trust those words.


Perhaps we can say that the lack of Speedlimits is not only giving the German Autobahn some mythical properties, but it is also a part of the contemparory German culture.

But now something else, here are some examples of Nazi propaganda using the Autobahn. It is believed by many that Hitler and Nazi-Germany were the creators of the Autobahn, and images like these were partially to blame for that myth.

An old postcard showing Hitler and a Autobahn:


----------



## HAWC1506

My article about U.S. infrastructure is up. http://www.autosavant.com/2008/12/01/the-little-things-that-are-holding-us-back/

And RipleyLV, somehow the editor didn't include the photocredit I sent him. I've contacted him about it and he should have your name up soon :]


----------



## mgk920

Robosteve said:


> Thanks for that. Germany seems very well connected based on that map, although there does seem to be a disproportionate abundance of autobahns in the far west of the country.


Don't forget, too, that in the east, 'commerce' was most definitely *NOT* a top priority of the Commies for the 45 years or so from 1945 until The Wall™ fell in 1989 and it has been a constant game of 'catch up' for the German Federal Transport Ministry ever since.

IIRC, aside from the modern-day A24, there was virtually zero development of the autobahns in the east during that period.

Mike


----------



## Timon91

Actually the autobahns in the east are among the best of the country, apart from some stretch near Schmölln on the A11, but they started repaving recently


----------



## ChrisZwolle

909 said:


> BTW: I heard some rumours about imposing a maximumspeed of 160 in the Czech republic, Slovakia and Austria. Is this true?


There was a test in 2007 on the A10 in Kärnten, but only for a short section and conditions permitting (electronic signs).


----------



## Timon91

I also heard about some test in the Czech Republic, but I don't know if they got something through. :dunno:


----------



## mapman:cz

Timon91 said:


> I also heard about some test in the Czech Republic, but I don't know if they got something through. :dunno:


It's not gonna happen this or next year. It's been only a proposal to set up a discussion on this topic and to find out appropriate solution. IMO it would be acceptable in few years, when the base network is completed...

I think the best way to do this is to leave generally 130 kph limit and to enable to break this rule with a "130 kph recommended" sign... If a 160 kph limit is set, people will tend to drive 160, because "it's allowed", if you leave 130 as recommendation, it still says more to driver, that 130 is the recommended maximum, but you can drive more without speeding, but with much higher responsibility and risk, as in Germany...


----------



## xlchris

Only a few days left and them I'm going to Cologne again  Maybe I'll take some pics of the highways!


----------



## Morsue

mapman:cz said:


> It's not gonna happen this or next year. It's been only a proposal to set up a discussion on this topic and to find out appropriate solution. IMO it would be acceptable in few years, when the base network is completed...
> 
> I think the best way to do this is to leave generally 130 kph limit and to enable to break this rule with a "130 kph recommended" sign... If a 160 kph limit is set, people will tend to drive 160, because "it's allowed", if you leave 130 as recommendation, it still says more to driver, that 130 is the recommended maximum, but you can drive more without speeding, but with much higher responsibility and risk, as in Germany...


I'm not exactly sure that will be the case. Last summer, when gas prices were through the roof, a Swedish newspaper article claimed that people were slowing down. It was deducted that it was because people couldn't afford wasting so much gas driving at high speeds. Then again, prices have dropped recently so this may no longer apply.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Nachdem das Teilstück zwischen den Anschlussstellen Sickte und Cremlingen am 30. September 2006 für den Verkehr freigegeben wurde, ist derzeit noch das sieben Kilometer lange Teilstück zwischen der AS Cremlingen und dem AK Wolfsburg/Königslutter im Bau. Dieser Abschnitt soll am 12. Dezember 2008 fertiggestellt werden.


From Wikipedia.

On December 12th, the A39 near Braunschweig will be completed, so traffic from Berlin/Wolfsburg doesn't have to pass via the A391 to get to the Harz or Kassel. Which effectively means the Braunschweig beltway will be completed 

:cheers:


----------



## 909

Taken from here: _Autobahn direction sign Ruhrpott (Ruhr area, also called Revier or Pott) - the Ruhrgebiet (...)_. 

Does anyone know where this sign is located or could it be fake?


----------



## Timon91

That's not the normal German font, I guess it's photoshopped, but of course I can be wrong.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's fake I think. It's not the usual DIN1451 font. The Autobahn pictorial is also too small.


----------



## thun

Definitely faked. On German signs there are never used other names than towns, especially if they aren't officially.


----------



## HAWC1506

If anyone wants DIN 1451 font, it's available for free download here: http://automatsvet.cz/traffic/


----------



## Patrick

I hope, that someone, who can design fonts (I can't) will design an older version of the DIN font, mabye also DIN Breitschrift


----------



## city_thing

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's fake I think. It's not the usual DIN1451 font. The Autobahn pictorial is also too small.


Is there anything about motorways that you don't know? 

I'm am continually impressed by your knowledge!

Bedankt!


----------



## Stratocaster

I think it should be at least mentioned here: A38 was opened.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Check post 427


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Check post 427


He said A38, not A39 



Stratocaster said:


> I think it should be at least mentioned here: A38 was opened.


Well, there's one last part missing, which is often jammed and will be opened in 2009.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Okay  Which section of the A38 opened today?


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Okay  Which section of the A38 opened today?


None 

The section Eisleben - Halle opened 2 days ago.

Today a 7.7km section of the A71 opened today, including the Schmücketunnel:









The missing part of the A39, which you mentioned in post 427 hasn't opened today but should opened until chrismas.


----------



## goschio

Truck fell down 50m from autobahn bridge (A61 between Cologne and Koblenz). Driver dead.

























http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,596180,00.html


----------



## Timon91

mg: Horrible. Are the barriers reinforced on this viaduct? They should do, to prevent accidents like this. If the barrier had prevented the truck from falling, the driver had a much greater chance of surviving.


----------



## PLH

There's no such barrier that will stop a truck.


----------



## Timon91

They should have on viaducts that are that high. It might cost a lot of money, but in case of this high viaducts it should be: safety first.


----------



## 909

Weren't barriers instead of stopping trucks suppose to be shiny?

But this accident reminds me of this one on the Wiehltal Bridge (A4).


----------



## Timon91

That was a little worse, damage wise. They had to replace the whole bridge because of that explosion. But yes, it was quite similar.


----------



## Dino S

PLH said:


> There's no such barrier that will stop a truck.


Concrete barrier


----------



## PLH

^^ I doubt that


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A truck that drives 90km/h and weighs 30 - 40 tonnes creates quite some kinetic energy. I also doubt if any barrier can withstand that. Usually, trucks don't hit that barrier dead on, but on a certain angle. Usually, the barrier is sturdy enough to absorb some of that energy and push the truck back on the road again. But it looks like the truck hit the barrier dead on and smashed trough it. I wonder if such accidents will happen on say, the Viaduc de Millau which towers nearly 300 meters above the ground.


----------



## xlchris

Today I went to Cologne. We left at 7 and arrived at 9:30. Here are some (bad quality) pictures from my phone;





















































































































































































Bonus: 'Markt der Engel', Neumarkt


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think you can be fined for having your TomTom placed that way. It should not be in your line of sight, so you need to place it much lower. I have my TomTom at the bottom left corner of my windscreen. You see many people having their TomTom at the middle of their windshield though.


----------



## xlchris

^Normally my dad places it a lot lower. On the ride back it was placed in the lower left corner. 
We also didn't had a environment sticker (?) for in the big german cities. No controles yet.


----------



## H123Laci

xlchrisij said:


> Here are some (bad quality) pictures from my phone...


yeah, the quality is really bad. :lol:


----------



## PLH

xlchrisij said:


> We also didn't had a environment sticker (?) for in the big german cities. No controles yet.


You better watch out with that - €5 for a sticker, but €40 for a fine.


----------



## 909

Just a few pictures of the A2 near Bottrop/Oberhausen I took a few hours ago.

01) Notice the shaft of the still active coalmine _Prosper-Haniel_ on the right.



02)



03)


----------



## Verso

I wonder if a sticker can improve environment.


----------



## pijanec

PLH said:


> You better watch out with that - €5 for a sticker, but €40 for a fine.


I think I paid 25 euros for a sticker.


----------



## Timon91

Nice pics 909 :cheers:
I hope to make some pics of German Autobahns soon (in two weeks )


----------



## keber

Verso said:


> I wonder if a sticker can improve environment.


Sure, environments of some government wallets are quite improved.:lol:


----------



## xlchris

pijanec said:


> I think I paid 25 euros for a sticker.


You can get a sticker for 5 euros at the pomp station. But some internet sites said the actual controles started at the first of january.
Well, we didn't get a fine.


----------



## Morsue

Wait, what now? Do you have to get a sticker of some kind to enter the center of German cities? Of what size do those cities have to be?


----------



## Patrick

it's not dependent of the city's size.

I already posted a list of cities that have these so called "Umweltzonen", where you need such a sticker.



Patrick said:


> and also not every city. here is a list of cities who has them:
> 
> Berlin
> Bochum
> Bottrop
> Dortmund
> Duisburg
> Essen
> Frankfurt am Main
> Gelsenkirchen
> Hannover
> Ilsfeld
> Köln
> Leonberg
> Ludwigsburg
> Mannheim
> München
> Oberhausen
> Pleidelsheim
> Recklinghausen
> Reutlingen
> Schwäbisch Gmünd
> Stuttgart
> Tübingen


----------



## Morsue

Ok, could be a good thing to know. I haven't seen anything about it earlier in the thread. The choice of cities seems a bit random (though I'm sure it's not). Where's Hamburg, or Bremen?


----------



## Patrick

I think, their citiy's administration just didn't want it.


----------



## ABRob

From the Dutch topic:


Timon91 said:


> I see. I was particularly referring to the section around Eisenach, where the road is very narrow. Luckily they're building a small new stretch around Eisenach.


Not that small - 24km 


Timon91 said:


> Did they already finish that


Not yet. It will be mostly finished at the end of 2009.



Timon91 said:


> And will that be 2×3?


Of course. 


Here are some construction pics:


----------



## Timon91

Thanks for the update! Good to see they're making progress over there. I didn't like that section near Eisenach at all. What will happen with the A4 section that won't be A4 anymore soon? Will they keep that as a city expy or sth?


----------



## jpeter

Can somebody post me a picture from Speed Limits in Germany


----------



## 909

And my favorite sign on the Autobahn:


----------



## Rohne

breaking news!

Federal government will release 173.6 million euros for the Riederwaldtunnel of the A66 in Frankfurt (the missing part east of the A661, will be 3+3)!
Construction can start in summer 2009.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Great. With the LKW-maut, they may be able to finance another tunnel to the Miquelallee in the future, completing the A66?


----------



## H123Laci

ABRob said:


>


impressive cut&fill... :cheers:

how deep/high is it?


----------



## Morsue

That's nothing. You should see some of the cut&fills on the Spanish AP7 between Valencia and Alicante. Massive!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I made this picture in 2005. The area recieved about 2 meters of snow in some areas. And no, it's not in the Alps, but in the Bayerischer Wald near Großer Arber I believe.



























We went skiing here:


----------



## Timon91

Just repaving maybe?


----------



## PLH

With trucks driving on it?


----------



## Timon91

Shit, I didn't see the sign. It doesn't seem that they are checking trucks, so I have no idea what else it could be for.


----------



## PLH

Knowing Germans, and that former checks are on the Polish side, they might have prepared a spot to check trucks entering Poland. I wouldn't be surprised when it turns out to be true.


----------



## Timon91

Is there no room to do that in the former checkpoint?


----------



## PLH

^^ But it's our side, maybe they want to have their own place? Don't forget Germans are weird :colgate:


----------



## AL-KS

In my opinion, Germany has the best motorways on earth!


----------



## H123Laci

^^ and what about spain?

thats also not a spain in the ass... :lol:


----------



## scotdaliney

ChrisZwolle said:


> Officially, the minimum distance advertised by the Dutch government is 2 seconds. If everyone would do that during rushhours, traffic jams would double they are now. The fact that people are driving close to eachother reduces some near-congestion stretches of actual congestion. However, when it rains, people tend to have a safer distance, and hence traffic jams increase.
> 
> It was the Coentunnel in Amsterdam that had 3.000 vehicles/hour/lane.


I thought it was considered by traffic flow theorist's that increasing distances between cars reduced congestion.?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ I believe that has more to do with traffic that can merge from ramps without disrupting the flow. (thus not causing congestion).


----------



## Morsue

Maybe we should differentiate between capacity and congestion. Lower speeds and greater distances reduce congestion, but also reduce capacity. Higher speeds and smaller distances increase capacity but also the risk of congestion. Or am I wrong?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There's some argue about what is the best speed that gives the highest capacity, but 90 km/h is often named. Higher speeds do not result in higher capacity due to the longer following distance in meters (hence less vehicles per kilometer lane).


----------



## Timon91

90 km/h is just too slow for a motorway IMO. Especially in Germany :lol:

It might be a good solution to higher the Vmax from 80 to 90 km/h on the Dutch motorways with Vmax 80 km/h.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You can install dynamic speed limits around urban centers. Lower during rushhour (more capacity), and higher outside rushhour (more comfortable speeds). I saw that already in operation near Bremen;


----------



## Des

I drove through Germany again today, faced the worst non-rush hour congestion I ever had  

What I'm wondering is why it's taking so long to upgrade the last remaining 2x2 bits on the A8 between Karlsruhe and Stuttgart to 2x3? And on the A96 is still quite a long bit of 2x1 between Memmingen and Bregenz that still hasn't been upgraded to 2x2. It feels like they have been working on it for ages but without making any real progress...


----------



## 909

Just a few pictures i made yesterday. 

01) This is the _Beeckerwerther Brücke_ over the river Rhine, on the Bundesautobahn 42. This Autobahn is colloquially known as _Emscherschnellweg_, after the river Emscher, which it roughly follows. The bridge has a length of 1030 m and was finished in 1990.
Although this pic is taken from the city Moers, this bridge connects Duisburg-Beeckerwerth with Duisburg-Baerl. We can see a part of the the enourmous complex of the ThyssenKrupp steelplant in Duisburg-Beeckerwerth. Because of all the heavy industry, this Autobahn offers some quite interesting views of an industrial skyline.











02) This is the Bundesautobahn 59, which connects Dinslaken (just north of Duisburg) with the cities Duisburg, Düsseldorf and Cologne to Bonn. The only issue here is that this Autobahn runs with three breaks, it isn't one continius Autobahn. Does anyone know why? 











03) A zoomed version of the previous pic. We can see the _Kreuz_ (intersection) of the A59 and A42. Notice the pipe crossing the road, remember: this is Duisburg, the industrial heart of Ruhr area. This pipe is part of the Landschaftspark, an abandoned coal and steel production plant.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Des said:


> I drove through Germany again today, faced the worst non-rush hour congestion I ever had


I know the feeling. Avoiding rushhour, and still get in a big traffic jam. I once spend 1 hour for 1 kilometer near Düsseldorf on a Sunday afternoon. Nearly no traffic before and after the jam, very strange. An accident didn't happen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

909 said:


> Bundesautobahn 59, which connects Dinslaken (just north of Duisburg) with the cities Duisburg, Düsseldorf and Cologne to Bonn. The only issue here is that this Autobahn runs with three breaks, it isn't one continius Autobahn. Does anyone know why?


I think the Duisburg - Düsseldorf connection can easily be made, but a route through Düsseldorf would be very expensive (tunnels), and not really necessary. It's better to streamline some existing streets and Autobahnen around the city than cut right through it. The A3 runs a few kilometers to the east, the A57 a few kilometers to the west. I don't think N-S traffic is very heavy here that it requires a third N-S route in a small area.

The part through Köln has kind of the same reasons, the A59 ends just 2 kilometers west of the N-S A3, which recently saw an expansion of lanes (2x4). Also, the A57/A1/A4/A555 is an alternative route bypassing the city on the left bank of the Rhein river. 

I also wonder if it was ever meant that the A59 would continue northwards to the A3 somewhere over time...


----------



## Patrick

autobahnatlas-online.de and german wikipedia say:



> Vom Autobahnkreuz Leverkusen-West (A 1) sollte die A 59 ursprünglich weiter führen und nördlich von Köln-Mülheim auf den Ostteil des Kölner Autobahnrings (A 3) stoßen, wo die Autobahn bis zum Dreieck Heumar parallel zur A 3 verlaufen sollte, wobei die Fahrspuren in Richtung Süden westlich und die in Richtung Norden östlich der A 3 geplant waren. Das Autobahnkreuz Köln-Ost wurde Anfang der 1970er Jahre bereits für diese Verkehrsführung geplant und mit entsprechenden Brückenbauwerken für eine weitere Autobahn erbaut.


it was planned to continue the A59 Düsseldorf-Köln from the current south-end in Northeast of Köln to Köln-Mülheim, where it would meet the A3. It was planned to built parallel lines to the A3 between the point where the A59 hits it and Dreieck Heumar, the current north-end of the A59 Köln-Bonn. The Interchange Köln-Ost (A3, A4, B55n) has been built allowing these plans, that's why it has bridges with are bigger than actually will have needed later.

http://autobahnatlas-online.de/PlanungBauKarteOhneAS.pdf
http://maps.google.de/maps/ms?ie=UT...52371,7.037237&spn=0.007178,0.019226&t=k&z=16

the missing part between Duisburg and Düsseldorf will be replaced by a Gelbe Autobahn, the B8n.


----------



## HAWC1506

ChrisZwolle said:


> There's some argue about what is the best speed that gives the highest capacity, but 90 km/h is often named. Higher speeds do not result in higher capacity due to the longer following distance in meters (hence less vehicles per kilometer lane).


I had a VERY long conversation about this issue with a Washington State transportation engineer. The typical thing that happens is that at lower speeds, the distance between vehicles shrinks. But the slower you go, the more congestion there is (less vehicles can travel through a certain point on the highway) and that reduces capacity. If you travel faster, then the distance between vehicles increases, but that reduces capacity. A recent study showed that the speed that allows for the largest capacity lies at around 45 mph (72 km/h). The graph looks a bit like this rough sketch I made in Powerpoint: 










Like you mentioned, Chris, there are plans to install variable signs. In Washington, the first ones to go up will be on I-405, and the speeds are supposed to drop down to as low as 45 mph in order to maximise capacity. And guess what? The technology is based on the system used in the Netherlands! Document here: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/FA72FBEC-D08C-4927-B0BB-337113A098B2/0/ActiveTrafficMgmt_folio_Sept07.pdf

Now the immediate question I thought of (but didn't ask because I was stupid) while I was having the conversation is the definition of capacity. Does it mean:

1. Getting as many cars as you can onto the roadway, OR 
2. Getting as many cars as you can onto the roadway WHILE allowing as many cars as you can to travel through a point in a given time, OR
3. Getting as many cars as you can onto the roadway WHILE allowing as many cars as you can to travel from point A to point B in a given time.

I'm pretty sure the graph above does not measure definition number one because if you wanted to get as many cars as you can onto the highway, you can drop the speed limit down to 1 km/h and have everyone leave a 20cm distance between their cars. So I'm still wondering whether the graph was based on:

1. Moving as many cars as you can through a point, OR
2. Moving as many cars as you can from point A to point B

Or the two might be essentially the same thing. I don't know, but I think I'm going to email the engineer again.


----------



## Radish2

yes, very expensive, not only that the Netherlands isn´t a good looking country, flat and with no real winters but everything is very expensive, but don´t be offended. 

I am interested where in Germany there are the smoothest and *most even* motorways and natonalroads, also two laned because usually the two laned roads look best when new and somehow they are mostly the most even. I know in Bayern there are very good looking roads with A-profile crashbarriers and very even asphalt, I think the asphalt is a bit softer than in Baden-Württenberg, I can´t stand very hard asphalt like in Baden-Württenberg, I don´t know why but in Baden-Württenberg many roads are really shitty and the motorways are substandart. When I compare the Hungarian M5 with some Baden-Württenberg motorway the German motorways are almost a joke compared to the M5 motorway. I want to know where in Germany they build roads differently with softer better looking asphalt and which are even, because many even new German roads go up and down. And they also use pretty bad markings which don´t shine at all in Baden-Württenberg, in Bayern they use great markings but the asphalt is pretty hard *unfortunately*. But I think Germany will always use very hard asphalt which is not confortable to drive on, they want everything durable, but they don´t realize that asphalt like M5 motorway in Hungary or Bulgarian motorways and nationalroads can be very durable, when the final layer is very good, I hope more substates in Germany will start using softer type of asphalt like in Hungary or Bulgaria to have very confortable kickass looking roads.

Edit: German roundabouts, signs and concrete blocks at sides of road look very good.


----------



## Timon91

Germany has some very smooth concrete motorways. I think that the motorways in the former DDR are the best motorways in Germany. Just because they're new. 

Oh yeah, Radi, we're having a real winter now. No snow, but it's quite cold


----------



## HAWC1506

Radish2 said:


> yes, very expensive, not only that the Netherlands isn´t a good looking country, flat and with no real winters but everything is very expensive, but don´t be offended.
> 
> I am interested where in Germany there are the smoothest and *most even* motorways and natonalroads, also two laned because usually the two laned roads look best when new and somehow they are mostly the most even. I know in Bayern there are very good looking roads with A-profile crashbarriers and very even asphalt, I think the asphalt is a bit softer than in Baden-Württenberg, I can´t stand very hard asphalt like in Baden-Württenberg, I don´t know why but in Baden-Württenberg many roads are really shitty and the motorways are substandart. When I compare the Hungarian M5 with some Baden-Württenberg motorway the German motorways are almost a joke compared to the M5 motorway. I want to know where in Germany they build roads differently with softer better looking asphalt and which are even, because many even new German roads go up and down. And they also use pretty bad markings which don´t shine at all in Baden-Württenberg, in Bayern they use great markings but the asphalt is pretty hard *unfortunately*. But I think Germany will always use very hard asphalt which is not confortable to drive on, they want everything durable, but they don´t realize that asphalt like M5 motorway in Hungary or Bulgarian motorways and nationalroads can be very durable, when the final layer is very good, I hope more substates in Germany will start using softer type of asphalt like in Hungary or Bulgaria to have very confortable kickass looking roads.
> 
> Edit: German roundabouts, signs and concrete blocks at sides of road look very good.


Well, one thing you want to keep in mind is that the way asphalt is made changes very frequently. There is a book that talks about the contents of asphalt and a new version of the book has to come out every one or two years. Newer ones tend to be softer with more rubber content. So like Timon said, I'd check the former DDR.

And as for the evenness of the roadways, a lot of times it has to do with drainage. Roadways are designed with a side slope for drainage purposes. I'll use / and \ to symbolise the way the roadway slopes down. When you have a 2x2, most likely the road will be / median \. But if you have a 2x4, then the road might be /\ median /\, which will make it look a bit more uneven. I hope that makes sense.


----------



## Timon91

You hardly notice this slope, but it is there, yes. In a few years time we'll see how it works out on the Dutch A2, which is expended from 2x3 to 2x5


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Slope is usually up to 2%, somewhat more in very rainy areas.


----------



## Timon91

Considering that 3 lanes + shoulder are 15 metres wide (4 times 3,75), the height difference would be 30 cm. Is it really that much? I never really noticed it :dunno:


----------



## Majestic

*A11 Kołbaskowo (PL-DE) - Dreieck Schwanebeck (Berliner Ring)
*



Here we go...​

*1. Just past border crossing (which has 50 km/h speed limit) - ahhh, brand new concrete :cheers:*











*2. Approaching 1st exit at German side - Ausfahrt Penkun *











*3. 1930's style Ausfahrt  
Goodbye smooth concrete, welcome bumps :bash:*











*4. World-famous-pavement section with no shoulder :nuts:*











*5. Still very bumpy...(Some drivers throwing up through their windows)*










*
6. Another newly-reapved section, not for long though...*










*
7. Approaching exit Schmölln and a slope.*











*8. Another unpaved section near exit Schmölln.*











*9. 117 km to Berlin, 100 km/h speed limit due to bumps and lack of shoulder.*











*10. Approaching a bottleneck at under-construction section.*









*

11. 1x2 section U/C (apparently not a real high-priority road, not a single worker at sight on workday), 80 km/h speed limit.*










*
12. No-passing sign on this stretch :crazy:*










*
13. Just 500m more of this nightmare...
*









*
14. Back on 2x2 brand-new section at Kreuz Uckermark (A11/A20*)









*

15. Right to Rostock via A20.*











*16. Exit Gramzow.
*









*
17. Exit Pfingstberg. 120 km/h speed limit on A20-A10 stretch due to sub-standard, tigh shoulder.*











*18. Tree-trimming truck doing its job. Good emergency signage with flashing lights. :cheers:*











*19. Ecoduct in the forest *











*20. Still 120 km/h even though the shoulder is proper here. Everyone doing 140-150 :lol:
*










*21. Buckowsee reast area (the only one on that section thus lots of cars fueling up).
*










*22. Reconstruction of a bridge over Oder-Havel Kanal.*










*
23. 2 lanes here including one suicidal near the concrete barrier :lol: New span visible in the backgound on the left.*











*24. Approaching exit Finowfurt. 80 km/h.*











*25. Exit Lanke, still 20 km to Berliner Ring.
*










*26. Call this a shoulder :lol:*





*27. Berliner Ring heading west. 120 km/h all the way to Dreieck Werder (A10/A2)
*











*Summary:*

Distance: 111 km
Timeline: 57 min
Traffic: low
Exits: 12
Interchanges: 1 (Kreuz Uckermark)
Rest areas: 1
Polizei patrols spotted: 2
Road excitement: 2/5


----------



## PLH

^^ Good work kay: 

Do you have pics from border crossing and A6/S3 Dreieck ?


----------



## Majestic

PLH said:


> ^^ Good work kay:
> 
> Do you have pics from border crossing and A6/S3 Dreieck ?


No, unfortunately not.


----------



## Timon91

Nice report, it's Majestic 

Are there ever any traffic jams on the A11? I'm surprised that traffic is so low, Szczecin is a fairly big city :dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Intercountry traffic is usually not that much. 

Even in the urbanized area of Aachen/Southern Limburg the amount of traffic that crosses the A76/A4 border crossing is only like 40,000.


----------



## x-type

Majestic said:


> *2. Approaching 1st exit at German side - Ausfahrt Penkun *


if this is first exit from the border, why does it have alleady number 3? :?: great and interesting report though!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In Germany, the first exit is at the border crossing, even if it's technically not possible to exit there. Where the second went; I don't know :dunno:


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> Where the second went; I don't know :dunno:


that's what i'm wondering acutally


----------



## Patrick

exit 2 "Nadernsee" is/was planned, but not realised yet. Don't know how old these plans are/were.


----------



## Timon91

ChrisZwolle said:


> Intercountry traffic is usually not that much.
> 
> Even in the urbanized area of Aachen/Southern Limburg the amount of traffic that crosses the A76/A4 border crossing is only like 40,000.


In the Limburg area there are lots of places where you can cross the border, but here it is quite different. But Meckelenburg-Vorpommern is not very densely populated, so I guess you're right


----------



## Radish2

Lots of reconstructions and so on. I find it poor that Germany increased the truck maut even though there aren´t many km of quality road like in Slovenia and Hungary where from beginning to finish the road is extremly smooth and even and looks impressive, in Germany that is not possible and I hardly believe near future there will be a motorway which has the same pavement for more than 200 km.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

One truck does as much damage as 10.000 cars to the pavement. In Germany, certain motorways have over 20.000 trucks on them per day. The annual damage to the pavement is incredible, so it's more or less logical that they have to compensate for that.


----------



## Radish2

ChrisZwolle said:


> One truck does as much damage as 10.000 cars to the pavement. In Germany, certain motorways have over 20.000 trucks on them per day. The annual damage to the pavement is incredible, so it's more or less logical that they have to compensate for that.


I´ve been told here on the forum that a car does as much damage as 40 cars to the pavement, now they are 10 000? That´s probably also why some roads with big truck traffic get relief from the trucks.


----------



## H123Laci

damage only happens when the pavement is not strong enough...

and it is not fair to blame trucks for damages on weak roads...

roads for heavy truck traffic have to be build with thick concrete pavement.

although it is more expensive as a thin pavement for small truck traffic, but not 10.000 times more... :lol:


----------



## HAWC1506

Radish2 said:


> Sorry, I no understand you Engrish, you learn better English please first, then you come ask question about building motorway in Hanburg.


Hey be nice.



kajetanek said:


> Are near Hamburg buliding some new autobahns ? In north of Hamburg ? or something else?


I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure Chris has an answer for you.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, A20 is being build near Lübeck. Should eventually extend all the way to Drochtersen, and then continue as A22 to near Westerstede or something in that area.

And Radish, I think you should take a look at your English first before you give such a comment...


----------



## Timon91

Have they yet started with building the bridge to Denmark over the Fehrmannbelt (or what's it's name again?), or are they still preparing?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, and I think it's gonna take at least another decade.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Die Spitzen von Union und SPD haben sich auf ein zweites Konjunkturpaket verständigt. Es hat ein Volumen von rund 50 Milliarden Euro für 2009 und 2010.


A stimulus package for the German economy, including 18 billion euros for infrastructure. What are the planned projects?


----------



## kajetanek

thanks for answer btw. to my english , sorry but i still study and Radish, other peoples understood me , i don't know why you didn't understand that.


----------



## Koesj

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah, A20 is being build near Lübeck. Should eventually extend all the way to Drochtersen, and then continue as A22 to near Westerstede or something in that area.


This route would be ideal to approach Hamburg from coming from northern parts of the Neterlands. Too bad I need to get to HAM in ten weeks rathen than 10 years hno:


----------



## thun

Radi, if you think German roads are too hard, use a car with a proper suspension the next time.  Those lowered GTIs and 3 series suck anyway...


----------



## Radish2

thun said:


> Radi, if you think German roads are too hard, use a car with a proper suspension the next time.  Those lowered GTIs and 3 series suck anyway...


No, how comes it Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria and Slovenia have very soft roads with great grip because the asphalt is both, very soft and a bit rough so that the ride is saver, in Germany it´s not like that.


----------



## Rohne

These countries' motorways aren't as congested as the German ones, so they can have different priorities. But who needs "soft" motorways at all? What's really important is the number of lanes and how wide they are, signage, environmental and safety standards, and noise reduction for the people who live next to it.
If you need so much softyness get a Thai-girl catalogue


----------



## HAWC1506

Radish2 said:


> No, how comes it Hungary, Serbia, Bulgaria and Slovenia have very soft roads with great grip because the asphalt is both, very soft and a bit rough so that the ride is saver, in Germany it´s not like that.


German roads will last much longer than those in Slovenia, France, Hungary, etc. Their materials are tougher and more durable, so that's part of the reason why they feel harder.


----------



## Radish2

Rohne said:


> These countries' motorways aren't as congested as the German ones, so they can have different priorities. But who needs "soft" motorways at all? What's really important is the number of lanes and how wide they are, signage, environmental and safety standards, and noise reduction for the people who live next to it.
> If you need so much softyness get a Thai-girl catalogue


Why don´t you just understand, the roads don´t need to be that hard, there are roads also in Bulgaria or in Slovenia or in Hungary which last pretty long, too, on the other hand there are German roads that break fast and have to be fixed after 2 - 3 years. you know what even Austrias new otorways and main roads are softer. I am sure Germany could build at least as soft nationalroads as Austria, because austrian roads usually last very long, I hope they will someday.


----------



## H123Laci

^^ check the new M0 east of Budapest... 
it has a hard thick concrete pavement for heavy truck (and car) traffic...

thats not that soft and smooth but very durable...


----------



## Timon91

You probably already know this site, but it provides many pics of all over Germany


----------



## ChrisZwolle

rippachtal.de from user Fierfly (Firefly) is also an excellent site


----------



## Mateusz

Introducing tolls on german motorways would give a huge boost of money but it would direct some trafic on normal roads...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tolling roads makes no sense.

First of all, the posession of a car is already taxed quite high in European countries. Second, the use of it is being taxed by disproportional high excise taxes. Hence, there is already far more money brought in than is being spend on road infrastructure. They just keep spending that money elsewhere and keep saying there's not enoug funding for roads. When you will see a toll, the same will happen, they redirect it to other non-road projects and keep saying there isn't enough money.


----------



## no1gizmo

Last Spring I was with my girlfriend on the way from Hannover to Paris. I have to say, that the german autobahn is very funny and interesting to drive. I love it, but in belgium and france I need attention not to fall in sleep.... hno: :dunno:


















In germany:


----------



## LT1550

^^ you are just crazy. If I compare driving in Germany with driving in France (I am German), driving in France is just more comfortable and you actually have the possibility to enjoy the surroundings. I also usually need less fuel when driving in other countries than Germany. It does not make a big difference if I am driving 190-200 in Germany or 130-140 in France; maybe just minutes - and if I can save lots of fuel - it's worth it.
I hope the general speed limit for Germany's motorways will come soon - 130 is enough!


----------



## Sponsor

LT1550 said:


> I hope the general speed limit for Germany's motorways will come soon - 130 is enough!


Agree. Last November I drove on A9 between Bayreuth and Berlin and despite the fact that motorway had 3+3 profile for almost whole lenght, most people were driving 110-130 km/h (even on non-limited sections). That's the most economical speed which makes travelling fast enough IMO.


----------



## Robosteve

deranged said:


> Driving on highways with artifically low speed limits through sparsely populated rural areas on roads with high design limits causes boredom and fatigue, which is the main reason I believe in higher / unlimited speed through such areas.
> 
> The way I see it, people who intend to drive dangerously will do so regardless of whether there are speed limits.


I agree completely.


----------



## Alle

LT1550 said:


> But speeding is annoying and that makes the difference between driving in Germany and USA. And I don't think it's good to let everybody use his car for whatever he wants. That's the main reason for me to plade for speed limits in Germany.


Huh? If you've earned you're resources you are not allowed them as you wish (legally), such as on gas? I thought that was one of the founding principles of liberty that the US was founded on. So I dont get youre point about the gas issue, which if anything is an issue of environmental management (infrastructure planning with ecology in mind) and fuel technology. 

About the speed limits, overly high speeds can increase the number of accidents and especially the severity thereof, and everyone understands that no sane municipality will allow speeds with which you cannot control you're vehicle adequately in populated areas. However, id say that most accidents happen, and especially on motorways, because of bad driving/tiredom etc, and to deal with that its more effective to have ones law enforcers regularly check the traffic for cars that are obviously not driving as can be expected.

Furthermore I, too, agree with deranged's post above.


----------



## deranged

I only now read the previous pages of this thread, and I realised that I'm basically repeating what 909, Robosteve, Patrick and a few others have already said. 909 in particular covered things very well.



LT1550 said:


> But speeding is annoying and that makes the difference between driving in Germany and USA.


If traffic volumes are so high that overtaking at a moderate speed would be difficult due to the frequency of low- and high-speed vehicles, the road would be likely to already have speed limits due to the amount of traffic. In less busy sections, not only would such a situation be less frequent, it would also be easier to handle, given the greater speed differentials - overtaking consumes less time, therefore one is less likely to need to accelerate or decelerate, than where speed differentials are lower.

The problem can't be eradicated completely, so there will be some annoyance. But as 909 mentioned, this occurs in areas where speed limits exist as well. In the latter, speed differentials are lower, given that most people who speed do not do so by a large amount. Variations in speed in those cases are thus smaller but more frequent. In any case, I believe it is more annoying to drive at unnecessarily low speeds.

Another potential issue with unlimited speeds - speed differentials and deceleration when exiting a highway - is not a problem when the length of off-ramps is sufficient.

The only other issue I can think of is merging onto a highway - but we're not talking about fighting your way in peak hour onto Toronto's 401 here. Accerelation lanes of sufficient length and merge points of sufficient length are the two requirements.

On the topic of acceleration when merging, cloverleaf interchanges without collector/distributor carriageways are sometimes used in areas where speed limits exist. There, not only is the speed differential troublesome when merging, it is also large and unavoidable, given that the maximum speed at which the ramp can be travelled is far lower than the motorway speed. Where C/D carriageways exist, this issue is far less pronounced, since (1) traffic already on the C/D carriageway is travelling slower than motorway traffic and decelerating in order to take the cloverleaf off-ramp, thus reducing the speed differential, and (2) the C/D carriageway allows merging traffic to accelerate to motorway speeds before joining the mainline.

Trumpet interchanges and cloverleaf ramps on unlimited-speed roads simply need long accelerating lanes. Full 4-way cloverleaf interchanges on unlimited-speed roads require C/D systems, and may require them on speed-limited roads depending on the curve radius, mainline speed, and traffic volumes.


----------



## Verso

*Highway to Heaven*

*Car Lands in Church Roof after Spectacular Accident*

Police on Monday were trying to figure out exactly how a 23-year-old driver in a town near Chemnitz managed to crash his car into a church roof seven meters off the ground.

Forget the "Dukes of Hazard." In the eastern German town of Limbach-Oberfrohna on Sunday night, a 23-year-old driver speeding through the town center lost control of his vehicle, launched off an embankment and ended up smashed into the roof of the village church some seven meters (23 feet) up. And far from driving a 1969 Dodge Charger, as Bo and Luke Duke favored, the man was behind the wheel of a modest Skoda Octavia station wagon.

Just how the driver, who was evacuated out of the church attic and taken to the hospital with serious injuries, ended up flying so high remains something of a mystery. Police officer Knut Wagner told reporters merely that "the driver took off due to unexplained circumstances, flew some 30 meters (98 feet) through the air and ended up seven meters up in the church roof."

Police surmise that the driver's speed caused him to miss a corner and hit the embankment. The roof of the church was seriously damaged by the car, which remained lodged in the timbers until a crane could be brought in to remove it.

A blood test is to reveal whether the driver was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time of the incident. When asked just how such an accident could happen, Wagner responded: "That is a very good question. I've never seen anything like it."

Specialists, including physicists, are at the scene trying to reconstruct exactly what happened.

_cgh -- with wire reports_







































































How the hell did this happen?! :eek2:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I heard about it on the radio.
They said has was DUI.


----------



## Morsue

^^ So he threw the car onto the church??



Spam King said:


> Is this on the way to Munich? Cause I was driving from Innsbruck a few weeks ago, and they had the divided northbound lanes, with the higher section only for trucks, and me, not paying attention accidently took the upper part and got a f***ing ticket![/QUOTE]
> How much was the ticket? Could the cops not understand that you made an honest mistake?


----------



## Timon91

Ron Weasley with a new flying car?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

LT1550 said:


> But speeding is annoying and that makes the difference between driving in Germany and USA. And I don't think it's good to let everybody use his car for whatever he wants. That's the main reason for me to plade for speed limits in Germany.


The problem is; can people handle the freedom of no speed limits? I really adore the freedom they give drivers in Germany, no childish speed limits or signs, like in NL. 

Also an issue; night speeding. While it might be safer because there's much less traffic on the roads, you can't really anticipate on what's ahead of you, because it's dark. So you can't really avoid potholes or deers on the road speeding with 180+ km/h.


----------



## deranged

^^ As for freedom - it comes down to driver training and education, and the driving culture and mentality IMO. As such, I'd entrust only a few countries with unlimited speeds. Some, such as Australia, the US and Canada could use higher rural freeway limits though.

As for night driving - that's true. A night speed limit for otherwise unlimited sections could work; the hazards are more than just deer and potholes. Still, if it's set too low, widespread non-compliance would defeat the purpose.


----------



## pijanec

^^What are other hazzards?



ChrisZwolle said:


> Also an issue; night speeding. While it might be safer because there's much less traffic on the roads, you can't really anticipate on what's ahead of you, because it's dark. So you can't really avoid potholes or deers on the road speeding with 180+ km/h.


Majority of European motorways have fences to prevent animals on roads. Although animals can sometimes find their way to enter motorways those accidents are rare. I also don't believe you can see a pothole on time with 200 km/h even during daylight.


----------



## deranged

^^ 
In addition to animals (I agree, rare) and potholes (depends on the size):

- Judging the speed of other vehicles is more difficult at night, and unlimited-speed roads generally have higher speed differentials, compounding the problem.
- There's the tightness of curves, which is harder to judge in the dark.
- There's also the visibility of signs, road markings, interchanges, and variations in lane configurations.
- Then there's the visibility of water on the road.
- And of course, there is less visibility of extraordinary situations such as accidents, breakdowns, fallen branches and other debris on the highway.

On the other hand, there is the issue of fatigue. It should be noted that daytime fatigue and night fatigue are somewhat different - the former is usually caused by driving, while the latter occurs naturally. However, artificially low night speed limits would exacerbate fatigue. It's a tradeoff.

Still, the list above provides an argument, but not a compelling reason for night speed limits - ie, if people can be trusted to drive at a reasonable speed in the daytime, why not at night? After all, if we assume the vast majority of drivers to be sufficiently safe, we could say that they would take more care at night and generally drive more slowly than in the daytime by choice, given that they would be aware of the potential hazards - whether explicitly, unconsciously, or even due to the moral hazard issue.

That's why although I think night speed limits could work, I don't have a strong opinion either way on the issue.


----------



## HD

the amount of traffic in germany often doesn't allow very fast driving anyway, especially during the day - but also during the night. it's not very uncommon to be stuck in traffic in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night.

SpamKing - are you sure, you got the ticket just for taking the truck lane? these kind of 'truck' lanes have often considerably lower speed limits than the 'regular' lanes. you were probably just too fast on the truck lane. there is no law that forbids you to use these kind of separate lanes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Germans having problems to spell Liège correctly on A60:

















By roadpics.net


----------



## Majestic

What's wrong with the spelling? :dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The é should have been è in Liège.


----------



## Majestic

Right :doh:


----------



## Verso

I see that Germans started putting the country ovals by every foreign destination. They used to do that only in special cases, when it was needed to be more informative, like I (Italy) by Munich, rather than an Italian city, or CH, also by München. Or Mulhouse and F by it, b/c it's more about France as such than just Mulhouse. But I know most foreign cities didn't have ovals beside, like Salzburg, Bregenz, Basel, Paris...


----------



## Robosteve

Verso said:


> I see that Germans started putting the country ovals by every foreign destination. They used to do that only in special cases, when it was needed to be more informative, like I (Italy) by Munich, rather than an Italian city, or CH, also by München. Or Mulhouse and F by it, b/c it's more about France as such than just Mulhouse. But I know most foreign cities didn't have ovals beside, like Salzburg, Bregenz, Basel, Paris...


I think it could probably be quite useful for non-European travellers. For instance, I wouldn't have known what country Liège was in.


----------



## Timon91

I've never seen an oval saying "NL" on the BAB 3, though Arnheim (Arnhem) is the target city quite a while. Utrecht is added after Oberhausen, also without an oval. Is this something new or so? The Poland-syndrom or what?


----------



## Palance

Ovals are being used for a long time in Germany, Austria and formey Yugoslavia. I like these, because they can give quickly a kind of short information about the long-distance-destination without knowing all the names of the city on the route to that country. I am realy in favour of using them.

I have never seen them in the Netherlands, and only once in Belgium (Brussels). In Germany they are more common, like the A99 near Munich. ("A" and "I").

In Austria, even ovals can be found with "TR" and "GR" (for the route through former Yugoslavia).


----------



## mhkamp

I was looking this forum a while, and I notice, the was no news about the BAB1 (or I missed).

The BAB1 between Bremen and Hamburg is till 2012 in construction side. They build the road from 2x2 lanes to 3x3 lanes.

I've known that, because I had to Glückstad one week ago, and one person warned me that the BAB1 was in construction. Between the constructions, the maximum speed limit is 100km/h (60mi/h), near the construction is it 80km/h (50mi/h) or even 60km/h (37mi/h).

Pictures:
Direction Hamburg:









The 2meter lane was sometimes very small.


















Direction Bremen:









Congestion near exit Oyten. They were very smart to close one lane in a construction area, because trees has to be removed:


----------



## goschio

Great, thanks for the info. Hope they also extend the A7 north of Hamburg to 3x3. At least to Rendsburg or Neumuenster. Right now they use the shoulder for traffic during peak hours.

Construction might start in 2010 according to this government info site:
http://www.schleswig-holstein.de/MWV/DE/Verkehr/Strassenbau/AusbauBundesautobahnen/A7/A7__node.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is Kaiserslautern, a major (100,000) city in western Germany. I wonder what the street name signs are like there.


----------



## BND

^^ It must be some US Army base. On the satellite images you can even see baseball fields


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've read 53,000 Americans live in and around Kaiserslautern.


----------



## muc

You will find many of those settlements with American street names in other German cities. Look in Mannheim, Karlsruhe, Heidelberg for example.
They were built after WW2 as residential areas for members of the American forces.

As the number of American troops have been greatly reduced since the end of the cold war many of those places have been converted to normal residential areas for civilians by now, but they usually kept the street names.


----------



## Treasure

Arent there many celebrities born in Germany like Martin Lawrence, Bruce Willis who else?


----------



## Patrick

You may know Ramstein, the town where the band Rammstein has taken its name. Ramstein ist just a few kilometers outside of Kaiserslautern.


----------



## Bembelkönig

muc said:


> You will find many of those settlements with American street names in other German cities. Look in Mannheim, Karlsruhe, Heidelberg for example.
> They were built after WW2 as residential areas for members of the American forces.
> 
> As the number of American troops have been greatly reduced since the end of the cold war many of those places have been converted to normal residential areas for civilians by now, but they usually kept the street names.


No, not really. They've never kept any english street names. "Third-Avenue" or "Arkansas Street" sound totally silly in German and secondly, I guess it isn't even allowed to use non-german words due to administrative purpose (german is still the official language).

But what they actually do is to use american-related names. e.g. in Mainz they have a Martin-Luther-King Center (conversion of a former us basis).


----------



## ABRob

After a long time, new road-pictures from me.
Over 10000 roadpics of these roads:
In Google-Maps - In GoogleEarth

-> http://www.autobahnen-europa.eu/index-393-424.html


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## Timon91

Ahhh, that's why you said that 552 pics isn't that much


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You must have pictured those parts of A2 and A7 many times now?


----------



## muc

Bembelkönig said:


> No, not really. They've never kept any english street names. "Third-Avenue" or "Arkansas Street" sound totally silly in German and secondly, I guess it isn't even allowed to use non-german words due to administrative purpose (german is still the official language).
> 
> But what they actually do is to use american-related names. e.g. in Mainz they have a Martin-Luther-King Center (conversion of a former us basis).


Well, to be more correct they often kept the names but converted them into German, so e.g. "Rhode Island Avenue" became "Rhode-Island-Allee" etc. At least you can find that in Karlsruhe and Munich, might be different at other places.


----------



## Ewok71

A cool Highway Bridge near Stuttgart


----------



## Majestic

^^ Indeed, cool graffiti :lol:


----------



## Ewok71

Theres actually a lot of graffiti on german highways. Even in rural areas. In most states (only in bavaria) they dont clean it. :banana:


----------



## Timon91

They don't clean it here as well - when they would do that it would be back on the next day hno:


----------



## Palance

At Kreuz Dortmund Nord-west: Spongebob Squarepants


----------



## ABRob

A71 Schweinfurt - Erfurt:




Link


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Very good video! 

I am going to Switzerland in June, I originally wanted to go via A7 and A81, but I planned to do the trip in two days anyway, so I might take a detour via A71


----------



## ABRob

mgk920 said:


> I'd love to see maps of where these routes were planned to go, there are many little spurs and 'ghost ends' along the A100 across the southern part of Berlin. Obviously plans, including going back to the pre-WWII days, were far more extensive than what was eventually built.


No, none of these plans going back to the pre-WWII days; they're going back to the 1960ies.

Here's a map:








Source: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/Karte_e.htm
*Legend*: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/LegendePlanungBauKarte_e.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Thank God those in central Berlin weren't build.


----------



## mgk920

ABRob said:


> No, none of these plans going back to the pre-WWII days; they're going back to the 1960ies.
> 
> Here's a map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/Karte_e.htm
> *Legend*: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/LegendePlanungBauKarte_e.pdf


Thanx!

Am I correct in assuming that the entire A100 loop, where it is not already complete, is still in active planning? Also, assuming that it is completed, of the other 'unbuilts', IMHO, only the A11 looks like it would be really useful.

Am I also correct in assuming that the A25 running cross-country westward from the A10 is a dead proposal?

Mike


----------



## Timon91

AFAIK the A25 was a never built alternative for the A24...


----------



## mgk920

I was poking around in the Trier/Bitburg/Prüm area (mostly in the Rheinland-Pfalz state) with Google Earth last night and have a bunch of questions. It is a fascinating area to explore with the high-res images.

-When is the 'super two' part of the A-60 between Prüm and the Belgian border expected to be upgraded to four lanes? (That section has got to be pretty nasty before and after F1 races at Spa :lol: )

-I note a 'ghost' end of the B51 'gelbe' autobahn at the B410 at Prüm and its grade is traceable for some distance to the southeast. Can I safely assume that any plans to complete that part are long dead? Was it planned to eventually feed directly into the B51 at the A60 closer to Bitburg?

-Whill the B51 ever be completed as a 'gelbe' autobahn all the way to the A1?

-Also, what, if any, are the plans for the 'ghost' end of the B-410 gelbe autobahn at the A60 just west of Prüm?

-What is the current completion schedule for the A1 in that area?

-What, if any, are the current upgrade plans for the B51 between Bitburg and Trier?

(BTW, Bitburger is available here in Appleton and I do *like* it! :cheers1: )

-What is the current schedule for completing the A64 between Trier and the A1? I note a very clear 'ghost' grade for the A1-A64 split just south of Föhren.

-What, if any, are the current plans for the roadway that is planned to extend off of the end of the A60 at the A1? Will it eventually feed directly into the B50 and be built to create a complete motorway to the A61?

-A bit farther north, I can see a need for upgrades to the B56 corridor between Düren and Zülpich. Any current plans?

Whew!



Mike


----------



## convalescence

mgk920 said:


> -When is the 'super two' part of the A-60 between Prüm and the Belgian border expected to be upgraded to four lanes? (That section has got to be pretty nasty before and after F1 races at Spa :lol: )


It probably won't ever upgraded, because there isn't so much traffic... only reason for that would be that there happen many accidents (especially in the 2+1 parts)



mgk920 said:


> -I note a 'ghost' end of the B51 'gelbe' autobahn at the B410 at Prüm and its grade is traceable for some distance to the southeast. Can I safely assume that any plans to complete that part are long dead? Was it planned to eventually feed directly into the B51 at the A60 closer to Bitburg?


Before A60 was planned, this B51 from Brühlborn (near Prüm) to Staffelstein (near Bitburg) has already started to be built! There are some bridges in the forest east of Rommersheim and Schönecken which have never been used! And also this bridge over B410 next to Brühlborn has been a useless bridge for 30 years or so....but there are works at the moment to let the b51 fade in B410 without same level crossings because this junction had many accidents! 












mgk920 said:


> -Whill the B51 ever be completed as a 'gelbe' autobahn all the way to the A1?


Now it isn't a "gelbe Autobahn" except a small stretch near Stadtkyll! There are plans to upgrade it complete to 2+1 at the rest. This road takes all the traffic that should run over still not completed A1 Blankenheim-Daun  so it probably won't be necessary in future any more.



mgk920 said:


> -Also, what, if any, are the plans for the 'ghost' end of the B-410 gelbe autobahn at the A60 just west of Prüm?


There I don't really know what they thought of.... for many years everybody had to drive over a bridge north of the junction to get to Schloßheck, Pronsfeld etc. although this road runs next to the dead end...some years ago a direct connection from Schloßheck to the junction was built...but not at the dead end...weird... (btw: this road is called "Milchstraße" due to a big creamery in the forest next to it and all trucks drive from/to there this road)...













mgk920 said:


> -What is the current completion schedule for the A1 in that area?


This process has taken too many decades now... till 2011 Daun (B257)-Kelberg(B410) shall be finished. but the most complicated part would be from AS Adenau to AS Lommersdorf due to a big bridge over Ahr valley.
there's a site which shows the current status of the project... it's german but has some images as well  
http://www.lbm.rlp.de/Projekte_cms/A1/lueckenschluss_a1.html



mgk920 said:


> -What, if any, are the current upgrade plans for the B51 between Bitburg and Trier?


THIS topic is at the moment one of the biggest regional discussions! Last year in june about 10 people (don't know exact number anymore) died during one month in various accidents that happened there...3 weeks ago again a 22 old woman died because a truck ran on her...
the discussions lead from banning all trucks from it (which would be nonsense in my opionion...) to upgrading it.... but it's only upgraded to 2+1 and this makes it so dangerous... there are so many speeders on that stretch you can't imagine...and short 2+1 lanes to overtake assist in that case....
my opinion is that the only sollution would be building a complete new motorway from A60-junction Bitburg to A64 Trier ! But even politicians talk about banning trucks from it... this road has the traffic amount of a motorway so it should be a motorway where rushing wouldn't be that dangerous than on a 2+1 road without median crashbarriers....

In the meantime I'm afraid of driving on that road - seriously !



mgk920 said:


> -What is the current schedule for completing the A64 between Trier and the A1? I note a very clear 'ghost' grade for the A1-A64 split just south of Föhren.


This stretch isn't in "Vordringlicher Bedarf" (important requirements) of the national traffic plannings (Bundesverkehrswegeplan) anymore...



mgk920 said:


> -What, if any, are the current plans for the roadway that is planned to extend off of the end of the A60 at the A1? Will it eventually feed directly into the B50 and be built to create a complete motorway to the A61?


Also a very controversial case in the region...from interchange Wittlich A60 will continue as B50n ("Gelbe autobahn") with a gigantic bridge (180m! - "Hochmoselübergang") over Mosel valley and lead to B50 near Longkamp. B50 from Flughafen Hahn to Rheinböllen (A61) is already almost finished as "Gelbe Autobahn"! 
my opinion is that this project is so overdimensioned...the traffic amount won't ever justify such a huge bridge and I'm sure there have been alternatives.... but this project is politically wanted just like A60 bitburg-Wittlich. It was an agreement from Belgian and German government to build a new transversale from the Belgian ports to Rhein-Main-Area! (what a nonsense this is just shows a comparison of google-maps-road calculations of this way and the way over A4-A61/A3)
here a link to the project Hochmoselübergang:
http://www.volksfreund.de/storage/med/special/384025_PK-Bau-B-50-neu-HMUe-16-12-08.PDF



So my home region is a good example for stupid traffic plannings...A60 Bitburg-Wittlich should never been built in my opinion...and completing A1 Blankenheim-Daun would solve many traffic problems in the whole region!


(sorry for bad english^^)


----------



## mgk920

convalescence said:


> (sorry for bad english^^)


Thanx!

:cheers1:

BTW, don't worry, your English is a LOT better than my German!

:lol:



Mike


----------



## Matz32Z

Photoalbum B2 Roth-A6-A73 Nurnberg /Furth
http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w208/mateusz32/B2 A6 A73/

2 Movies 

A99 Tunnel Allach




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmOozOWEW3Q


----------



## Kelaerkelaer

ABRob said:


> Directly east of the AD Neukölln will be build a 385m tunnel with 8-lanes:


:eek2: :master:


----------



## mgk920

mgk920 said:


> Thanx!
> 
> :cheers1:
> 
> BTW, don't worry, your English is a LOT better than my German!
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike


One more question, what, if any, are the upgrade plans for the roads in the Karlsruhe-Saarbrücken (unbuilt A8) corridor? I would think that the B10 and B427 between them is a NASTY drive.

Mike


----------



## Verso

^ Sadly not planned.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not necessary either... The current road is mostly okay, I've driven it from Landau/Pfalz to Annweiler/Trifels. Traffic volumes are rather low.


----------



## urbanfan89

ABRob said:


> No, none of these plans going back to the pre-WWII days; they're going back to the 1960ies.
> 
> Here's a map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/Karte_e.htm
> *Legend*: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/LegendePlanungBauKarte_e.pdf


Wouldn't this be impossible to build given the...ahem...wall?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The wall was constructed in the early 60's, maybe these plans just precede that.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Not necessary either... The current road is mostly okay, I've driven it from Landau/Pfalz to Annweiler/Trifels. Traffic volumes are rather low.


Traffic volumes on many motorways are low, but they are still necessary. I don't see a reason for not building this motorway. What's behind it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ecological reasons ofcourse. It's quite a scenic natural area over there (Pfälzer Wald)


----------



## Verso

It didn't look overly scenic to me.  It was nice though.


----------



## Radish2

I don´t know for trafficvolue, but the B10 usually is a very busy road and the quality is very poor. 20+ years old asphalt all the way so it´s not a confortable ride at all. They rehabilitated some km between Plochingen and Esslingen, but only in direction Stuttgart, in direction east they didn´t do anything.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

We were talking about the B10 between Pirmasens and Landau, radi


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A445 / A46 Werl - Bestwig (Sauerland)*

I took these pictures in september 2007, I did an afternoon trip to the Sauerland area. My parents thought I was kinda crazy, driving back and forth to Sauerland (250km) in half a day, because we used to go on wintersport there. In the 90's, the A46 featured a gap around Arnsberg and Meschede, and one had to take congested surface streets to reach Brilon, sometimes we drove the A44 to Erwitte/Anröchte, and then continued south across more quiet roads.

By now, the A445/A46 Autobahn ensures a fast connection to the Sauerland, although the end of the motorway can be congested during winter weekends when half of the Ruhr area goes skiing here.

route:









1. Symbolic entrance to Sauerland on A445 to me.









2. End of A445 (Werl - Neheim) and beginning of the A46. I doubt the A46 near Iserlohn will ever be extended to here...









3. Exit Neheim-Süd









4. The Sorpesee is one of the tourist attractions in the northern Sauerland.









5. I believe we had to take this exit earlier, when the A46 had a gap.









6. Arnsberg is a regional center









7. Another arch bridge at the Arnsberg Ost-exit









8. Nice view already, although the nicer parts of the Sauerland are off the Autobahn.









9. One of the newer tunnels.









10. This is the newest part of A46 I think.









11. Freienohl exit, this is a minor one.









12. Standard BBS









13. Storm damage from hurricane Kyrill









14. Almost clinched 300 meters here









15. Another nice tunnel.









16. Northern Sauerland view









17. Another tunnel near the Wennenen exit









18. Schmallenberg is further south, deeper into the Sauerland.









19. Yes, through the 300m mark. This bridge altitude is only 1 meter lower than the highest point in NL









20. Hennesee is also a artificial lake, as well as the Möhnesee nearby.









21. Enste exit.









22. Very simple exit sign, not more is needed 









23. Exit Meschede was closed at that time.









24. More hurricane damage.









25. Entire forests were flattened due to Kyrill.









26. The A46 ends here. I think many residents of Bestwig wish to see the A46 bypass their town.









27. Föckinghausen, sounds nice 









28. Daily view in Bestwig:









29. The famous yellow signage









30. Faded sign


----------



## Timon91

A well-known area for me - I often go to the Sauerland


----------



## flierfy

urbanfan89 said:


> Wouldn't this be impossible to build given the...ahem...wall?


It was certainly impossible to actually build these roads for several decades. Such proposals, however, are long term planning. And it was always intended that the city would reunify in the long term.


----------



## Verso

Scenic motorway with some crazy tunnel portals. Does "NN" really stand for "Normalnull"? :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, NN is Normalnull. In NL, we have NAP (Normaal Amsterdams Peil). Coincidentally, the German NN is exactly the same as NAP, since they're both measured from the north sea level at Amsterdam.


----------



## Verso

Austrians have "über Adria"; as if other seas or oceans are any different.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Austrians use the Adria near Triest: -25 cm compared to NN/NAP
The Swiss use the Mediterranean near Marseille: -32 cm compared to NN/NAP


----------



## Verso

Are there seriously differences between seas/oceans?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparantly, there is. Maybe it's the median between tides, they can differ from place to place. The Mediterranean has almost no tide, while the North Sea has, and other places have like a 12 m difference between tides. (Canada).


----------



## x-type

where can it be checked which point some country uses?

edit: i have found. ironic - ex-YU use Trieste, and Italy uses - Genova


----------



## thun

Shocking but the reason for the different height levels in the oceans is (according to my understanding) that the earth is not a perfect bowl. Other effects are the rotation of Earth, and general differences at Sea levels. 

Btw. Germany changed the system after the reunion, now it's called "Normalhöhennull" or short "NHN" and not "NN" anymore. The point of reference is Amsterdam.


----------



## Patrick

I am pretty upset now, because of this video.





.

The Autobahn shown is the A3, stretches between Seligenstadt near Frankfurt and Dernbach near Koblenz.

I hope, this guy will be caught one day, he should never ever drive a car again. He, whoever he is, may be a skilled driver, but he is an irresponsible asshole. Even more sick is to film that and put it on youtube.


----------



## pijanec

^^I agree with you. 

I also noticed how people drove strangely. The far right lane (when there were 3 lanes) was most of the time empty and because of that people were clogging up the overtaking lane.


----------



## earthJoker

Verso said:


> Austrians have "über Adria"; as if other seas or oceans are any different.





> Meereshöhe ist nicht gleich Meereshöhe
> In wenigen Minuten wird die Hochrheinbrücke ihrer Bestimmung übergeben.
> 
> Eine neue Rheinbrücke, die das schweizerische und deutsche Laufenburg verbindet, wurde zum Fasnachtssujet.
> 
> Die neue Hochreinbrücke wurde am Freitag eingeweiht. Sie entlastet die beiden Ortszentren von täglich 5000 Fahrzeugen.
> 
> "Aufbruchstimmung hüben wie drüben", schreibt die deutsche Gemeinde Laufenburg und nimmt Bezug auf die feierliche Eröffnung der neuen Brücke über den Rhein.
> 
> Drüben freuen sich die Bewohnerinnen und Bewohner des schweizerischen, des aargauischen, Laufenburg über die neue Brücke.
> 
> Die neue Hochrheinbrücke verbindet seit vergangenem Freitag das schweizerische und deutsche Laufenburg. Nach über zwei Jahren Bauzeit gehören die mühsamen Durchfahrten der Autofahrerinnen und Autofahrer durch die engen Strassen der Orte der Vergangenheit an. Die Anwohner atmen auf. Das badische Laufenburg kann erstmals ungestört seinen Weihnachtsmarkt im Stadtzentrum abhalten.
> 
> Das Bauwerk kostete 12 Mio. Franken. Sie werden je zur Hälfte vom Kanton Aargau und dem deutschen Bundesland Baden-Württemberg getragen. Die Schweiz und Deutschland teilen sich zudem die Kosten der Zollanlage, denn diese bedeutet – vorläufig wenigstens noch – Schengen-Aussengrenze der EU.
> Ein Schock
> 
> Der Bau schritt anfänglich flott voran. Die Brücke wuchs im Hitzesommer 2003 Richtung Flussmitte, als man stutzig wurde.
> 
> "Wir hatten schon zwei Etappen betoniert, als sich zeigte, dass mit der Höhe etwas nicht stimmen konnte", erinnert sich der bauleitende Ingenieur Nedeljko Madzarac in der Zeitung "Berner Rundschau".
> 
> Später wird der Laufenburger Stadtamman, Rudolf Lüscher in der "SonntagsZeitung" sagen: "Possen passieren überall, nicht nur in Schilda". Die Panne beim Bau der Rheinbrücke habe seine Feststimmung, diejenige an Weihnachten 2003, nicht gestört.
> 
> Panne? Es sei nicht einfach eine Panne gewesen, sagen heute die Beteiligten. Es sei ein Schock gewesen.
> Unstimmigkeiten
> 
> Am Weihnachtstag 2003, alle wollten bereits Schaufel und Betonmaschine in die Ecke stellen und den Heiligen Abend einläuten, da fand eine letzte routinemässige Kontrolle der Bauleitung statt.
> 
> Die musste feststellen, dass zwischen dem Brückenbau auf deutscher und dem Bau auf Schweizer Seite eine Differenz von immerhin 54 Zentimetern bestand. Wollte man die Brücke in der Mitte zusammenfügen, dann würde das schwierig werden. "Laufenburger wir haben ein Problem" funkte die Bauleitung in die Zentralen.
> Referenzhorizont
> 
> "Die Höhendifferenz kann beim Trasseebau auf deutscher Seite mit minimalem Aufwand korrigiert werden", wurde beschwichtigt. Doch deutlich darauf hingewiesen: "Der Fehler liegt auf Schweizer Seite."
> 
> Das gab auch Gesamtprojektleiter Beat von Arx unumwunden zu. Allerdings wusste auch er erst nicht warum.
> 
> Später wurde die Öffentlichkeit aufgeklärt. Ursache des Fehlers sei die Tatsache, dass im Bereich des Strassen- und Brückenbaus die Horizonte auf deutscher und auf Schweizer Seite auf unterschiedlichen Referenzhorizonten basierten.
> 
> Damit hat man mit einer technischen Floskel folgendes nicht gesagt: Deutschland bezieht sich bei all diesen Berechnungen auf die Meereshöhe der Nordsee. Die Schweiz, die offensichtlich lieber gen Süden schaut, bezieht ihre Referenz vom Mittelmeer. Der Laie lernt: Meereshöhe ist nicht gleich Meereshöhe!
> Aus Minus wurde Plus
> 
> Damit noch nicht genug. Diese Differenz der beiden Referenzmeere führt zu einer Differenz von 27 Zentimetern. Das hatte man bei der Planung der Brücke, 12 Jahre zuvor, gewusst und entsprechend in die Berechnungen einbezogen.
> 
> Leider muss da einer aus einem Plus- ein Minuszeichen gemacht haben. Denn die Werte wurden auf die falsche Seite korrigiert. Und so wichen die beiden Brückenteile schlussendlich 27 mal 2 gleich 54 Zentimeter voneinander ab.
> 
> Selbstverständlich wurde dieser Rechnungsfehler zum Fasnachtssujet und auch an der Eröffnungsfeier ging er nicht vergessen. Allerdings wurde auch betont, die Korrektur sei einfach gewesen und hätte keine Mehrkosten verursacht.
> 
> Mit dem Versetzen der Bronzewappen des Kantons Aargau, des Landes Baden-Württemberg und der beiden Laufenburg, der Einsegnung und einem Oldtimer-Korso wurde am vergangenen Freitag die Brücke über den Rhein ihrer Bestimmung übergeben.
> 
> Sie behielt den Namen "Hochrheinbrücke". Vorschläge wie "Differenzbrücke" oder "54er-Brücke" wurden genauso abgelehnt, wie der Vorschlag den alten Namen "Laufenbrücke" zu behalten.


Summary, they build a bridge and in the middle there was a height difference. They new about the different standards but "corrected" it in the wrong direction.


----------



## TheCat

Patrick said:


> I am pretty upset now, because of this video.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Autobahn shown is the A3, stretches between Seligenstadt near Frankfurt and Dernbach near Koblenz.
> 
> I hope, this guy will be caught one day, he should never ever drive a car again. He, whoever he is, may be a skilled driver, but he is an irresponsible asshole. Even more sick is to film that and put it on youtube.


Looks like a typical Russian MKAD driving video


----------



## Mateusz

I would really reactivate some forbidden prjoects which you can see on autobahn atlas.de


----------



## HAWC1506

does anyone know what happened to the U.S. interstates thread? It seem as if it has been deleted.


----------



## RipleyLV

HAWC1506 said:


> does anyone know what happened to the U.S. interstates thread?


It's right here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=277981


----------



## HAWC1506

RipleyLV said:


> It's right here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=277981


Thank you! :cheers:


----------



## Micrav

Was driving as I often do between Belgium and Latvia. 

In Germany, there was big traffic jams due probably to the fact that Germans are planning road works too long. If they were shorter, they probably be smaller... And also, Germans don't go on alternative roads. I was amazed of this. I took an alternative road to escape the jams, no problem, a lot of time saved. And further, again traffic jam, near Bielefeld, and again, no car on the deviation road around the 9 km jam. Not understandable. How is it possible in Germany, country knowned for its quality? Those jams are 100% pure innefectivity!


----------



## Timon91

Did you use an "U-route"? Those are there in case of a big jam or a road closure.


----------



## Patrick

A3 Frankfurt-Flughafen - Frankfurter Kreuz: 123,000
B43 Frankfurt-Flughafen-Ost - Frankfurter Kreuz: 68,500
Combined: 191,500. These two roads are just few meters away of each other.

Apropos B-Roads: The most busiest strecht in each Bundesland is (2005):

Bremen: B6 Hohentorsplatz - Stephanibrücke (96,700)
Nordrhein-Westfalen: B1 Dortmund-Dorstfeld - Dotrmund-Wittekindstraße (86,600)
Rheinland-Pfalz: B9 Koblenz-Nord - Koblenz-Bubenheim (80,800)
Schleswig-Holstein: B76 Kiel-Westring - Kiel-Mitte (78,300)
Baden-Württemberg: B27 Leinfelden-Echterdingen - Stuttgart-Degerloch (77,800)
Bayern: B28 Neu-Ulm-Mitte - Dreieck Neu-Ulm (71,500)
Hessen: B455 Wiesbaden-Erbenheim-Nord - Wiesbaden-Berliner Straße (70,600)
Niedersachsen: B3 Hannover-Pferdeturm - Hannover-Seelhorsterkreuz (68,000)
Berlin: B96a Köpenicker Straße - Am Seegraben (53,900)
Hamburg: B4 Mengestraße - Wilhelmsburg-Süd (49,500)
Sachsen: B2 Leipzig-Mitte - Leipzig-Maximilianallee (44,400)
Sachsen-Anhalt: B100 Halle-Peißen - Halle-Berliner Chaussee (35,900)
Brandenburg: B1 Hoppegarten-Berliner Straße - Dahlwitz-Hoppegarten (35,200)
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern: B105 Rostock-Ost - Bentwisch (30,400)
Thüringen: B4 Erfurt-Demminer Straße - Erfurt-Kühnhausen (25,100)
Saarland: B423 Homburg OE - Homburg AS (22,700)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A3 Köln near Dreieck Heumar: This should've been the A59?


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> A3 Köln near Dreieck Heumar: This should've been the A59?


Checking the air photos
(see: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=50.926146,7.057514&spn=0.00351,0.010986&t=k&z=17 )
it looks to me like a former grade, the original ramp leading to the southbound A-59 before the interchange was upgraded.

Mike


----------



## ABRob

It was the exit to the A4 before the A59 was build.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New part of the A52 opened a few days ago. This part is located near the Dutch border.




































































































Aus-
Fahrt


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The other direction:


----------



## PLH

Why it's motorway - expy - motorway - expy there?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Dutch side will be a permanent expressway. I think the German expressway is just temporary until the whole road is cleared of construction sites.


----------



## Dantiscum

Only 120 km/h allowed on dutch motorways? Is this strictly and often controlled by the police or can you sometimes allow yourselves a little bit faster ride ?


----------



## keber

>


Very narrow emergency lane on that autobahn.


----------



## Mateusz

I think it would be really good if some old projects would be brought to life. like completing internal ring in Berlin. possibly A25 too, and some other motorways in ex Eastern Germany + urban motorways in Ruhr Area


----------



## Timon91

I was wondering how the completion of the A14 (Magdeburg-Schwerin) is going? Is it yet U/C?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In my opinion, the highest priority should switch back from eastern Germany to western Germany. Many western German autobahns cannot handle the massive load of trucks. They need to be widened, and some gaps need to be completed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A43 Münster - Wuppertal*

_Click on the title to view the full set_

The A43 is a secondary Autobahn in the Ruhr area, it runs from Münster to Wuppertal, and this set covers all of that. The A43 is an alternative to the A1, which runs along the east side of Dortmund. The A43 is slightly longer. The A43 serves several larger cities, from north to south: Münster, Recklinghausen, Herne, Bochum, Witten and Wuppertal.

route:









1. Kreuz Münster-Süd.









2. Traffic spreads over 5 lanes here.









3. Distance sign. Wuppertal 101km









4. Autohof at this exit.









5. Exit Senden.









6. Standard fork-sign.









7. Regional towns in the area, no big deal.









8. Exit Nottuln.









9. Another regional exit.









10. Wuppertal 90km.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

11. Truck toll portal.









12. Rest area.









13. The Autobahn as it was meant to be.









14. Exit Dülmen-Nord.









15. At the exit.









16. Exit Dülmen.









17. I used this exit a couple of hours later in the other direction.









18. A local exit.









19. 









20. Big service area ahead.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

21. Ruhr: European Capital of Culture.









22. Exit Haltern.









23. This is an interregional exit. Also to Wesel.









24. Wuppertal 63km.









25. Kreuz Marl-Nord ahead.









26. 









27. Overheads.









28. Wuppertal 59km.









29. Exit Marl-Sinsen.









30. Notice the "Engschrift" narrow font used for Recklinghausen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

31. Dirty distance table.









32. Double exit Recklinghausen/Herten.









33. This is a major exit.









34. Oer-Erkenschwick. Nice name.









35. Kreuz Recklinghausen (A2)









36. Gelsenkirchen is guided via A42 apparantly.









37. A bit wet through here.









38. Recklinghausen-Hochlarmark exit.









39. We have now entered the Ruhr area. Lots of exits ahead.









40. Kreuz Herne ahead.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

41. The A42 is one of the principal Autobahnen in the Ruhr area.









42. Exit Herne-Eickel. Herne is one of the lesser known Ruhr cities, though still a larger city with over 100,000 inhabitants.









43. 2x2 lanes through here. 2x3 might be better, but space is scarce in this area.









44. Crossroads.









45. Wuppertal now 40km.









46. Exit Bochum-Riemke. Bochum is one of the largest cities in the Ruhr.









47. Close-up of the sign.









48. Umweltzone signage.









49. Although you're in an 10 million metropolis, you will mostly see trees from the Autobahn.









50. Distance sign.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

51. Kreuz Bochum. 









52. There is also an exit within the interchange.









53. 









54. Exit Bochum-Laer.









55. Notice the speed limit is still 120 km/h through here. Similar American freeways would be posted at 55 mph (90km/h)









56. Distance sign.









57. Interchange Bochum-Querenburg.









58. This leads to the short A44 to Dortmund. The A44 is possibly the most fragmented Autobahn in Germany.









59. 5 overheads visible.









60. The urban area is less dense south of Bochum.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

61. Wuppertal still 28km. Notice these distances are to the city center, the city limits can be significantly closer.









62. Exit Witten-Heven. Witten is also a großstadt, but lesser known.









63. Simple and clear signage.









64. Crossing the Ruhr river.









65. Industrial culture.









66. Witten-Herbede.









67. Distances on adjacent motorways.









68. A lot of areas of the Ruhr area are actually quite scenic.









69. Exit Sprockhövel.









70. Regional exit to towns nearby.









71. Last distance sign on A43.









72. Kreuz Wuppertal-Nord.









73. I'm heading onto A46 here.









74. A bit weird to see Bremen signed in the southbound direction here.


----------



## Majestic

Yes, it's very scenic indeed, reminds me of a parkway. So you drove L74 southbound, which road did you take afterwards? 

As far as I remember 74 ends up intersecting with 229 in a beautiful valley. Not far from there you can enter the Müngstener Brückenpark with a massive Mungsten Bridge, the highest steel railroad bridge in Germany.

I kinda liked that area.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I took the B229 into Solingen. Got 20 traffic lights green in a row.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Kreuz Essen-Nord*

The Interchange "Kreuz" Essen-Nord was supposed to be a full Autobahn-to-Autobahn interchange, since the A52 was supposed to run north from Kreuz (now Dreieck) Essen-Ost to Gladbeck, hence interchanging the A42 at Kreuz Essen-Nord. Well, the interchange was build, but it's still waiting for the A52 to arrive. It's a needed Autobahn, the B224 can be backed up pretty bad, and there are no alternatives nearby. (both A3 and A43 are 10 - 15 km away).

1. 









2. Begin autoweg.









3. Knooppunt met de A42.









4. Rechtdoor naar Gladbeck.









5. Bewegwijzering op het klaverblad









6. Bottrop is ook dichtbij.









7. Brug over het Rhein-Hernekanal.









8. Einde autoweg.









9. 









10. En weer verkeerslichten.


----------



## Mateusz

Oh yes, A4 is a mess at the moment. And I really don't like this narrow, steepy stretch in woods near Erfurt. And A4 is quite congested, where A38 has a fairly moderate traffic


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My last video from friday's trip to the Ruhr:

*A535, A44, B227 Wuppertal - Essen*


----------



## Verso

^^ Nice video. Have you now driven on all motorways and expressways in the Ruhr?


----------



## Morsue

Chris, you drive too fast


----------



## Timon91

:rofl: Chris hasn't driven on the A4 from Köln to the A45 yet. Finally a motorway where I have driven and Chris hasn't


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I put all the Autobahns I clinched into an Excel file, and the total is 7.407 out of 12.550 kilometers, which means I have clinched 59,02% of all German Autobahnen. So still a lot to go


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This gotta be the tallest sign in Germany:









I think I made a pic of it myself too...

Tadaaa


----------



## Majestic

Holy cow, that's quite a sign here :lol:

Too many destinations if you ask me...


----------



## Timon91

Quite a wind-catcher. I wonder if it has ever toppled over because of that :lol:


----------



## Verso

Who was complaining about this sign? :lol:


----------



## Timon91

We all did, but that was because of there are so many destinations on it


----------



## Mateusz

I saw such loooongish sign in Poland but on local road near my hometown


----------



## Matz32Z

Przejazd w obie strony przez Remonowany most na A9 w Monachium .
Ruch przelozony na ta jenowa jezdnia w ten weekend 
the bridgeA9 Munich. 




http://www.youtube.com/watch?=6_BZkA-OyXU






http://www.youtube.com/watch?=OKYItYRdpGc


----------



## kajetanek

ChrisZwolle said:


> This gotta be the tallest sign in Germany:


hey, it's my photo  i've taked it at july 2008.
i guess you find it, in panoramio or at google earth ? 
i have more photos of german autobahns


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A49 Kassel - Neuental*

_Click on the title for the full set_

The A49 is a relatively unimportant Autobahn, going from Kassel to the town of Neuental. It is obvious that it should've ran to Marburg or Gießen, since the milemarkers also confirm this. The road becomes very quiet south of Baunatal and Fritzlar.

route:









1. Nog op de A44.









2. Kreuz Kassel-West. Deze moeten we hebben.









3. 









4. Volkswagenfabriek in de buurt.









5. Uiteraard een Baustelle.









6. Afslag Baunatal-Nord.









7. Afslag Baunatal-Rengershausen.









8. Afslag Baunatal-Mitte.









9. Hierna wordt het snel rustiger.









10. Baunatal-Süd.









11. Heuvelachtig landschap.









12. An Aral rest area.









13. Twee afslagen vlak na elkaar.









14. Afslag Edermünde.









15. Afslag Felsberg.









16. Marburg is nog wel even rijden, vooral binnendoor.









17. Afslag Gudensberg.









18. 









19. Afslag Fritzlar. De laatste grotere plaats langs de A49.









20. 









21. Hierna is de weg uitgestorven...









22. Afslag Wabern.









23. 









24. 









25. Afslag Borken.









26. Vrachtverkeer mag niet verder op de A49.









27. Er gaan overigens gewoon 2 rijstroken rechtdoor.









28. Afslag Borken.









29. brug.









30. Nu rijdt er echt niemand meer.









31. Einde van de Autobahn.









32. Ik ging hier links, wilde naar Kirchheim om de A7 op te komen.


----------



## Verso

Autobahn for Marburg:










Oh wait...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Video: A81 Stuttgart*

This video takes us across the Autobahn A81 in southern Germany, from Ilsfeld to Sindelfingen-Ost, through the Stuttgart metropolitan area. It also features a tunnel, and the A81 has 6 to 8 lanes, including a concurrency with A8.

Watch in HQ:


----------



## Verso

^^ I never noticed the concurrent section was 8-laned. You can't watch in HQ for some reason, only on YouTube website.


----------



## ABRob

Verso said:


> ^^ I never noticed the concurrent section was 8-laned.


It's 7-laned.
4 lanes uphill and 3 lanes downhill.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

With last week, I have now driven 63,37% of the German Autobahnnetz. +4,35% since last week.


----------



## Verso

Did you continue on the A81? There's the Mercedes factory in Böblingen right after the end of that video on the right, and it's big.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, I clinched the entire A81, and also the A864 

I also made pictures of the entire Autobahn.


----------



## Verso

I've driven a couple of times on A81 and the road on the western terminus of A864 (B27/B33), but not on the A864 itself.


----------



## mgk920

^^
The A864 is one of the more interesting shreds of roadway on the A-system - a tiny part of the never-built A86 - with ghost ramps and grades at each end that are readily visible on the Google-Earth high-res air images. The east end, IMHO, could be usefully extended to connect to the B523 at Talheim and continued on to at least Tuttlingen (part of the never-built A86 routing). The B27 in that area is part of the never-completed A83.

Also, besides all of the fascinating ghost ramps and interchanges along the A81 in the Stuttgart area, is a shred of what appears to be fully intact 'old' road A81, abandoned when the A81 was upgraded to 6 lanes just north of interchange 13, near Winzerhausen:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.016848,9.243064&spn=0.016353,0.043945&t=h&z=15
I'd love to see modern-day images of that grade (it reminds me of an abandoned part of the Pennsylvania Turnpike just east of I-70 near Breezewood, PA, USA that is now a public trail).

Mike


----------



## PLH

*A11:*

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=37867130&postcount=770
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=37867168&postcount=771
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=37867200&postcount=772


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Kirchheim - Würzburg*

_Click on the title to watch all 157 pictures_

This set runs from Kirchheim, the "center" of Germany all the way south to Würzburg, through the Rhön mountains, with the Wasserkuppe at 950 meters as it's highest point. The A7 has relatively few exits due to the low population density in the area.

route:









1. Hattenbacher Dreieck vanaf de oprit Kirchheim.









2. Dit stuk is nogal breed met 2x4 rijstroken.









3. 5 rijstroken zelfs. Nogal ongebruikelijke bewegwijzering hier. Basel/Frankfurt gaat zowel rechts als links, maar niet door het midden.









4. Ongeveer heel Zuid Duitsland staat hier bewegwijzerd.









5. München is nog vrij ver.









6. De A7 is een mooie rustige Autobahn. Goed alternatief voor de A3!









7. Ik wil in de richting Stuttgart, nog bijna 3 uur rijden.









8. Delen van de A7 zijn ook driestrooks uitgebouwd, soms ook over langere afstanden (niet alleen als kruipstroken)









9. Hünfeld/Schlitz.









10. We komen hier door de Rhön, een wat onbekender middelgebergte.









11. Würzburg is nog een uurtje. Veel afslagen aan de A7 zijn er niet.









12. Kilometerpaal 555,5









13. Fulda-Nord.









14. Fulda is een regionale stad in dit gebied, de belangrijkste plaats tussen Kassel en Würzburg.









15. Afstanden.









16. Afslag Fulda









17. Vroaaarrr.









18. Dreieck Fulda, dit is één van de nieuwere echte knooppunten in Duitsland. Met de A66.









19. Veel brückenarbeiten langs de A7. Geven overigens geen vertraging.









20. De A66 loopt naar Frankfurt, ik heb die ook al eens gereden.









21. Zo zien de werkzaamheden eruit.









22. Würzburg is nu minder dan 100 kilometer.









23. Zelfs een McDonalds bij deze Rasthof.









24. Weer drie rijstroken.









25. uitzicht.









26. Bad Brückenau-Völkers.









27. Schweinfurt komt erbij.









28. Mooi gebied dit.









29. Viaduct.









30. Bad Brückenau/Wildflecken.









31. Regionale afslag is dit.









32. Tankstelle Rhön.









33. Bad Kissingen/Oberthulba. Ze houden hier niet van korte afslagnamen.









34. 









35. Würzburg is nu nog een half uurtje.









36. Fränkisches Weinland.









37. Bochten.









38. Afslag Hammelburg.









39. 









40. Weer even 3 rijstroken.









41. Opvallender kan haast niet.









42. Weer 2x2.









43. Eén of andere Amerikaanse basis.









44. Wasserlosen.









45. Naar de B303.









46. Kreuz Schweinfurt/Werneck.









47. Je kan ook via de A70 en A73 naar Nürnberg, handig als het druk op de A3 is. Maakt vrijwel niks uit in afstand.









48. Dit is tevens het westelijk einde van de A70, die naar Bamberg en Bayreuth loopt.









49. Ulm staat nu ook aangegeven, rijkelijk laat om pas een tweede A7 doel aan te geven.









50. Landschap wordt nu vlakker.









51. Gramschatzer Wald.









52. De volgende afslag is Würzburg.









53. Afstanden.









54. Würzburg/Estenfeld.









55. De B19 is een Gelbe Autobahn door Würzburg. Kan wel eens van pas komen als de A3 vast staat net na Biebelried.









56. Vooral A3-doelen hier. De A7 gaat na Würzburg ook wel door een erg leeg gebied.









57. Kreuz Biebelried.









58. Ik neem hier de A3.









59.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


>


I'd write A81 by Stuttgart instead of A3. You only drive some 20 km on A3, while 120 km on A81.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some pictures of the A3 roadworks near Würzburg.

Wat foto's van de verbreding van de A3:

1. Het begint al direct vanaf Kreuz Biebelried.









2. Dit gedeelte moet nog.









3. Vanaf Würzburg/Randersacker begint het dan echt.









4. Brückenneubau bis Juni 2011. Länge 1.6 km









5. Linkerstrook is maar 2 meter, dat zie je veel. Veel mensen durven er ook niet op.









6. Hier de brug over de Main.









7. Verschoven rijstroken.









8. Nederlanders zijn echt overal.









9. Hier een stukje 2x3 voordat er weer werkzaamheden zijn.









10. Hier zijn straks wel 3 rijstroken beschikbaar.









11. Allemaal naar links.









12. Ecoduct ofzo.









13. Ook hier rare bewegwijzering, vrachtwagens moeten er rechts langs, zoals bij het Hattenbacher Dreieck.









14. Hier nog maar twee rijstroken beschikbaar.









15. Rijbaan splitst zich 









16. Links gaat naar de A3, de linker rijstrook naar de A81 en rechts kan je ook naar de A3.









17. Daar gaan de trucks richting Frankfurt.


----------



## thun

> 8. Nederlanders zijn echt overal.


Yep, that's the problem with them. 
I've seen at least 5 NL cars in town while I was on my way to the petrol station. Somehow scary, on the other hand, it's summer...


----------



## Energy2003

^^ :lol: 

and it´s so cool to read dutch


----------



## Mateusz

Especially if you know German and English than you can pick quite a lot


----------



## ChrisZwolle

thun said:


> Yep, that's the problem with them.
> I've seen at least 5 NL cars in town while I was on my way to the petrol station. Somehow scary, on the other hand, it's summer...


It's ridiculous how many Dutchmen you see on the roads, on campings, even outside summer season, and on the less touristic spots... The Dutch are very well travelled. 

I was once travelling on the French A31 northbound, and 2/3rds of the traffic was Dutch, it almost felt like a take-over.


----------



## STIB

Traffic (truck) jam near Wurzburg - photo taken on Wednesday, 03rd June:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A81 Würzburg - Gottmadingen*

_Click on the title for all 305 pictures_

The A81 runs from Würzburg to the Swiss border, a distance of 285 kilometers. It passes by the cities of Heilbronn and most significantly; Stuttgart. The photos are from two days, because I called it a day at Horb am Neckar. Be patient because it means some loading time.

Route:









1. Afrit Gerchsheim.









2. De afstanden.









3. Dit is grotendeels het landschap van de A81 ten noorden van Stuttgart.









4. Adviessnelheid 120. Ik heb dit nog niet eerder zo gezien, doet me aan Denemarken denken.









5. Rasthof ob der Tauber.









6. Tauberbischofsheim









7. Zelfs met portaal.









8. Veel bos in dit gebied.









9. Zelfs even 3 rijstroken.









10. Hoge kilometrering op de A81. Dit loopt op richting Süden.









11. Deze borden zie je bij elk viaduct van de A81.









12. Ausfahrt Ahorn.









13. Stuttgart is nu minder dan een uur rijden.









14. Ausfahrt Boxberg.









15. Er zijn vrij weinig afslagen tussen Würzburg en Heilbronn, het is dan ook een dunbevolkt gebied. Veel verkeer reed er ook niet.









16. Osterburken.









17. 









18. 









19. Wegdek is niet overal even jofel meer.









20. Mautportaal.









21. Rasthof Jagsttal.









22. Een fors viaduct









23. Möckmühl.









24. Allemaal plaatsen waar ik nog nooit van gehoord had.









25. 









26. Afslag Neuenstadt.









27. Kochertalbrücke.









28. 









29. Nog geen nieuwe doelen. Ik had hier Nürnberg verwacht omdat de volgende aansluiting het Kreuz Weinsberg is.









30. Een tunnel.









31. Kreuz Weinsberg.









32. Wij gaan rechtdoor.









33. 









34. Afslag Weinsberg.









35. 









36. 









37. Singen en München worden nu ook aangegeven. Karlsruhe ook direct weer.









38. Viaduct over de snelweg.









39. Afslag Heilbronn/Untergruppenbach.









40. 









41. Ilsfeld.









42. Even eraf...









43. ...om een burger te scoren bij McDonalds. Deze dames waren wel erg luchtig gekleed, het was maar iets van 17 graden.









44. Weer op de Autobahn. Het is nu al even na zessen.









45. Rasthof Wunnenstein.









46. Afslag Mundelsheim (tijdelijk afgesloten)









47. 









48. Afstanden.









49. Pleidelsheim.









50. Nog een hoog viaduct.









51. Ludwigsburg-Nord. Ludwigsburg is een grotere voorstad van Stuttgart.









52. 









53. Antiek viaduct.









54. Ludwigsburg-Süd.









55. De control city wordt nu Singen.









56. Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen, een klaverblad.









57. Een boel doelen hier.









58. 









59. Ulm komt er bij.









60. Stuttgart-Feuerbach.









61. 









62. Dreieck Leonberg 4km, want er zit een tunnel tussen.









63. Engelberg-tunnel. 2x3 rijstroken.









64. Dreieck Leonberg.









65. We draaien hier naar het oosten.









66. Dubbelnummering met de A8. 7 rijstroken in totaal.









67. Rasthof Sindelfinger Wald.









68. Kreuz Stuttgart.









69. 









70. 









71. We gaan nu naar het zuiden over een stukje zonder vluchtstroken.









72. Oud bord.









73. Sindelfingen-Ost.









74. Böblingen-Ost.









75. 









76. Böblingen/Sindelfingen, beiden belangrijke voorsteden van Stuttgart.









77. Claustrofobisch gedeelte hier. Je moet er geen pech krijgen.









78. Klaverlad Böblingen-Hulb.









79. Je kan hier ook naar het noordelijke Schwarzwald.









80. Ehningen.









81. 









82. Twee afslagen vlak na elkaar.









83. Gärtringen. In noordelijke richting is dit de fameuze afslag naar links.









84. De A81 had hier namelijk direct naar Leonberg moeten lopen.









85. Afstanden. Singen is nog steeds ruim een uur.









86. Rasthof Schönbuch.









87. Een tunnel.









88. Het Schwarzwald. Het wordt nu al wat laat, tegen half acht.









89. Herrenberg.









90. Afslag naar de Gelbe Autobahn B28 naar Tübingen.









91. Afslag Rottenburg.









92. 









93. ASS CAR









94. Een hoge brug.









95. Horb am Neckar. De laatste afslag voor vandaag.









96. Hier heb ik overnacht voor € 6,70









97. De volgende morgen, zondagmorgen.









98. Empfingen.









99. Weer een afslagbord in de middenberm.









100. De Zwitserse grens is nu nog maar een uurtje rijden.









101. Sulz am Neckar.









102. Alweer een bord in de middenberm.









103. Hier had Schaffhausen of Zürich wel bijgemogen.









104. Oberndorf am Neckar.









105. Veel bos hier richting het westen.









106. Rasthof Neckarburg. Tijd om te tanken.









107. Rottweil.









108. 









109. Een wat ouder bord zo te zien.









110. Hier aan het einde van de parkeerplaats stond de Bundespolizei op me te wachten... Politiecontrole









111. Villingen-Schwennigen.









112. De Polizei reed hier nog achter me. Maar na deze afslag was ik aan de beurt.









113. Afslag Tuningen heb ik daardoor niet op de foto staan.









114. Veel bos.









115. Dreieck Bad Dürrheim.









116. Hier maakte ik even een zijsprongetje om de A864 te _clinchen_









117. Geisingen.









118. 









119. Ah. Schaffhausen.









120. De Hegau.









121. Weer een wat hogere brug.









122. Rasthof Im Hegau.









123. Afslag Engen.









124. Een niet al te belangrijke afrit.









125. Zwitserland is niet ver meer nu.









126. Kreuz Hegau.









127. 









128. Dit zijn oude vulkanen, ik wist niet dat die hier ook waren.









129. Aansluiting Singen.









130. 









131. Schaffhausen is het enigste doel nog.









132. Hilzingen vanaf de werkzaamheden.









133. Een tunnel.









134. We naderen de grens.









135. De laatste afslag is Gottmadingen.









136. De "afslag"


----------



## Verso

^^ They could sign Zürich as well.


----------



## BND

^^ This motorway section seems to have the longest settlement names along. Engschrift had to be used often on signs


----------



## Timoth12

I noticed some years ago no emergency lanes on A8 Bad Reichenhall- Rosenheim. Are there any plans for further upgrade?


----------



## Des

I love german highways, I drove from the Polish border past Berlin, Wolfsburg, Hannover to the Dutch border near Enschede in afternoon / evening rush hour yesterday and didn't have a single traffic jam


----------



## Chrissib

Timon91 said:


> Is that just for safety? It looks insane... :nuts:


I really don't know. It's a very flat landscape, there are no sharp curves and it's also no "Autobahn-Airport".


----------



## keber

Old sign:








Especially this one:









I think you don't see much of those type of signs on German Autobahns.


----------



## berlinwroclaw

*A8 Stuttgart-Karlsruhe*

Photos made on 31.05.2009. This 2x2 motorway section will be completed as 2x3 in 2012. 

Map motorway section A8 Stuttgart-Karlsruhe. 










Approaching Junction Leonberg A81 x A8. Coming from A81 Stuttgart Nord.










Most traffic follows A8 (East). We follow A8 (West) to Karsruhe.











Entering A8.











Looks really good! Entering unlimited speed area for more fun.










Driving with comfort here.











Entering first construction area. This section has AADT 90000. 











This is how it looks from Heimsheim to Pforzheim.











Entering the second constuction area.











Old 2x2 motorway constructed during 1930's. 











Junction Karlsruhe A8 x A5











Greetings 

Berlinwroclaw


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice. I thought A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart was 2x3 already?


----------



## snowman159

How much of the old Reichsautobahn alignment between Karlsruhe and Munich is still left today? I found it really charming and driving was much more relaxed. (100 or 120kph speed limit?) 
Many newly built freeways in Europe look so sterile and boring.


----------



## bozata90

snowman159 said:


> How much of the old Reichsautobahn alignment between Karlsruhe and Munich is still left today? I found it really charming and driving was much more relaxed. (100 or 120kph speed limit?)
> Many newly built freeways in Europe look so sterile and boring.


Well, on that stretch of road (namely A8 in most of its length) it is quite not relaxing experience to drive on these old parts (they are quite a few) - it feels narrow, the AADT is huge, there are many traffic jams and there are almost constant construction sites... So I'm looking forward to seeing it completed as 2x3 Autobahn...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A81 Stuttgart, now in HD!*

My second HD video, this one is a remake of my earlier A81 video.

Check it on the Youtube site to view the HD size:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ztBQXOms04


----------



## HAWC1506

So I'm guessing that double metal barriers are now being replaced by concrete ones?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, I have seen that on A44 between Kassel and Dortmund.


----------



## Patrick

A5 north of Frankfurt between Friedberg and Bad Homburger Kreuz


















temporäre standstreifenfreigabe


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That last picture in particular is cool


----------



## DSzumaher

A93 Inntal Autobahn
Granica A/D - 56 Dreieck Inntal (see more pics, click above link)

Kiefersfelden service station. So full, that trucks stay on a (fortunately wide) entrance lane.

















































































































to be continued...


----------



## DSzumaher

A8 Salzburger Autobahn
101 Dreieck Inntal - 95 Kreuz München-Süd


































































































































































































































the end.


----------



## Radish2

Great pics, I like that city.


----------



## SkyView

I'm already looking forward to my trip to Austria in about 2 weeks.
German highways are a pleasure to drive !


----------



## SuperSergei

Nice pics Dszumher! Which week day did you take the pictures? I can see heavy traffic direktion south, is it a friday?


----------



## ZZ-II

best traffic sign in germany :banana:










120 km/h - End


----------



## DSzumaher

SuperSergei said:


> Which week day did you take the pictures? I can see heavy traffic direktion south, is it a friday?


Photos were taken last saturday. Exactly, early afternoon.
This traffic jam - "only" ~ 10 km.



ZZ-II said:


> best traffic sign in germany :banana:
> 120 km/h - End


That is better, isn't it?


----------



## Dr.Mabuse

I don't know if it is posted somewhere in skyscrapercity. But i think this shouldn't be unmentioned.
:baeh3:

Elzer Berg A3

The Dutchs know it and everybody else who takes the A3 from Cologne to Frankfurt :lol:










http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8498/041bab3westdiez002sw9.jpg









http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/A3-Blitzer-ElzerBerg.JPG









http://www.autobild.de/ir_img/57819970_cc5dd3f32f.jpg









http://www.laubner-luftbild.de/Bilder/10/Elzer%20Berg.jpg


----------



## Rohne

>


Bavaria is more and more going the hessian way of signage... kay:


----------



## Mateusz

One lanfe left out on sign ?


----------



## Patrick

there is currently a construction site @Elzer Berg, you may only drive 80. but the radars are currently also not at work. and the truck lane is now constantly 60, not 40 anymore


----------



## Dr.Mabuse

Patrick said:


> there is currently a construction site @Elzer Berg, you may only drive 80. but the radars are currently also not at work. and the truck lane is now constantly 60, not 40 anymore


i think 60 is much better than 40!:banana:


----------



## muc

> Bavaria is more and more going the hessian way of signage...


Now I am curious. What exactly defines a "hessian way of signage"?



> One lanfe left out on sign ?


On that part of the A8 the emergency lane can temporarily get opened for traffic as a 4th lane in case of heavy traffic. In that case a 4th upward arrow will appear for that lane on the sign.


----------



## Rohne

In this case: only short arrows used, extra board for the exit without arrows but only the distance (500m). Anywhere else in Germany it would look completely different, except for Hesse.
The hessian rules can be found in 2 pdf-documents here: HSVV, the topic "Leitfaden zur wegweisenden Beschilderung" at the bottom.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A99 + A92 München-West - Neufahrn*

This route follows A99 and A92 along the west and northern side of München. It was my first time in this area, and I was there during rushhour, but no traffic jams, I only heard of one single traffic jam on the inner ring. Way to go München!

route:









*A99*

1.









2. 









3.









4.









5. 









6. 









7. 









8.









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.









15.









16.









*A92*

17.









18.









19.









20.









21.









22.









23.









24.









25.









26.









27.









28.









29.


----------



## Verso

^^ For a moment I thought the airport was named after Franz Josef, the Austrian emperor. Nice pics; I've heard there can be many traffic jams around Munich.


----------



## convalescence

In a satire show I heard the first time of problems at A20 with some kind of bubbles in the asphalt...

(everything in german)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbpg6GZKRbU

the problem is shortly described in the german wiki page, there are also some links describing it
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAB_20


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As far as I understand it, they had problems with noise emissions, layed asphalt in the rain which didn't stitch very well to the concrete pavement, and now bubbles of water/air begin to pop up due to the heat.


----------



## PLH

A11 - reconstruction
A100

here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=209457&page=47


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 München - Nürnberg*

_Click on the title for all 123 pics_

This set covers the A9 northbound from Kreuz Neufahrn near München (Munich) to Kreuz Nürnberg, a distance of 140 kilometers. The pics are taken in two days, since I stayed the night in the Altmühltal. There is very high truck traffic on this corridor, even with the recession and all.

route:









1.









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.









7.









8.









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.









15.









16.









17.









18.









19.









20.









21.









22.









23.









24.









25.









26.









27.









28.









29.









30.









31.









32.









33.









34.









35.









36.









37.









38.









39.









40.









41. Next day 7.15 am.









42.









43.









44.









45. 









46.









47.









48.









49. 









50.









51. Rock im Park









52.









53.









54.









55.









56.









57.









58. Dachsermania









59.









60.









61.


----------



## PLH

One of my favourites (unless you don't want to drive more than 130, then it means a slalom among trucks - Berlin gibt richtig Gas )


----------



## ChrisZwolle

PLH said:


> One of my favourites (unless you don't want to drive more than 130, then it means a slalom among trucks - Berlin gibt richtig Gas )


Yeah, I had the same experience, it's 80 km/h on the right lane, or 160 km/h on the left lanes... If you want to drive 130 (like me) you're stuck between the slow trucks and the fast boys who want to race home after work.


----------



## PLH

When talking about speeds - according to latest Auto Bild poll:

2% <110 km/h
24% 110 - 130 km/h
36% 130 - 150 km/h
17% 150 - 170 km/h
8% >170 km/h
7% variously

This 8% might seem little, but it means that 1 in 12 cars goes >170.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I doubt that. Maybe that's how people want to drive, but do not actually drive. A lot of people are in the 130 - 170 range, but I don't think 15% drives over 170 km/h. Maybe on some quiet Autobahnen like A20 or A31.


----------



## PLH

It's 8, not 15%.

Well, much depends on the traffic. Make the same poll in Poland and you'll get that most people drive 120 - 130 km/h, whereas in heavy traffic 100 is a lot.


----------



## WA

Nice pictures, I can tell by looking at these pictures that the New Jersery Turnpike must have been modeled after the German Autobahn.


----------



## ABRob

WA said:


> Nice pictures, I can tell by looking at these pictures that the New Jersery Turnpike must have been modeled after the German Autobahn.


When was the New Jersery Turnpike built?
The first German Autobahnen in the nineteen-thirties were modeled afte the American Parkways.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Antique sign:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

LMB said:


> PS Iranians are civilized people, though.


lol, what did you expect? Cavemen? :lol:


----------



## Morsue

LMB said:


> Kinda OT, but I was picked up by one [Iranian truck] in Poland when hitchhiking to Berlin in 1996. Very interesting trip... These guys were listening to something that seemed to be a funeral recording. :nuts: Happy thing to listen to in your track, a mourning session in the morning
> 
> PS Iranians are civilized people, though.


I'm guessing this Iranian was listening to Quranic verses. They're almost always read in the same fashion, even the joyful ones. This often sounds quite gloomy to the untrained ear.


----------



## Matz32Z

PART II
Photo time 6-7morning 

21









22









23









24









25









26









27









28









29









30









31









32









33









34









35









36









37









38









39









40










Movie-12.08.09




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMCZUWIp_-4


----------



## Matz32Z

PART III


41









42









43









44









45









46









47









48









49









50









51









52









53










54









55









56









57









58









59









60


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice. I guess it's gonna take a few years before all of the A8 is brought to 6 lanes.


----------



## Matz32Z

PART IV

61









62









63









64









65









66









67









68









69









70









71









72









73









74









75









76









77









78.Nasz zjazd









79









80









81









82









83









84









85









END.


----------



## convalescence

some more (interactive!) visualizations of Hochmoselübergang online

http://www.hochmoseluebergang.rlp.de./visualisierung.html

here you can exactly see how this overdimensioned project is destroying the scenery of the Mosel Valley... 

today it's known that this street will never have traffic volumes like such roads should have...


----------



## Rohne

What ADT is expected? If it's more than 20000 than its enough. I have the impression that you're only posting here to write down your anti-opinion. Unless you can bring evidence for too low traffic volumes my opinion will be pro Hochmoselübergang. But the architecture could indeed be better, especially in such a sensible environment.


----------



## RawLee

A more bridge-like structure would look better,like at Millau. Or one with arches. Especially if it would reduce the number of pillars.


----------



## Timon91

Indeed, this looks more like a pale viaduct. This view only makes the view of the valley worse. A more bridge like structure would have been better.


----------



## ABRob

convalescence said:


> some more (interactive!) visualizations of Hochmoselübergang online
> 
> http://www.hochmoseluebergang.rlp.de./visualisierung.html


Nice! 



convalescence said:


> here you can exactly see how this overdimensioned project is destroying the scenery of the Mosel Valley...


Sorry, i can't find a overdimensioned project on that page...



RawLee said:


> Or one with arches.











_original_
Not realy better...



RawLee said:


> A more bridge-like structure would look better...





Timon91 said:


> A more bridge like structure would have been better.


Ho can a bridge be a more bridge like structure?
Should it look like this:










In fact this is a typical design for bridges of this size:


----------



## Timon91

Cable-stayed, for example, like the Millau bridge in France.


----------



## thun

A design like the Viaduc de Millau would indeed be the only option which could look better. The general structure (how do you say "Balkenbrücke" in English?) is ok as its the most decent it could get.


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## Timon91

thun said:


> "Balkenbrücke"


You mean a beam bridge?


----------



## convalescence

I'm not totally against a street project for a better connection between Eifel and Hunsrück.
The connection at the moment is a normal Bundesstraße that has a lot of serpentines down the valley and goes through some villages and towns (Bernkastel-Kues) in the valley. This road has a normal traffic volume for a Bundesstraße, just like 2002 finished A60 Bitburg-Wittlich (about 6000 ADT). That these traffic volumes at the new connection will increase to 20000 or something like that is somehow a bit naiv, isn't it? Think about increasing energy costs and fuel prices. The plans of this project are from the 70's and very old-fashioned in my opinion.

There are alternatives like a road from AK Wittlich along Lieser Valley (there once was a railway => almost no slope) and south of Bernkastel would be a valley with a slope that isn't soo big - a road where it's not necessary to drive more than 130 all the time would be possible and still a faster and better connection between Eifel and Hunsrück.

The worst thing about this project is that it is so politically wanted... as a fast road connection between north sea ports of Belgium and Netherlands and the Rhein-Main-Area. Some facts about that:
Any other route to take like along Cologne would be shorter and faster!
Would be faster because these routes are full motorways! For exampe A60 Winterspelt-Prüm is still 1+1 (some stretches 1+2) and will probably never be upgraded due to low traffic volumes about 4000 ADT!

Unfortunately I don't have numbers about future traffic volumes on that B50n-stretch but I know my home region and what's up here. No one here wants this project - only the politicians...


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## ABRob

The optical impact of a Milau-style-bridge would be much higher with the pylons and all the cables.
Look how dominant this bridge is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viaduc_de_Millau_1.jpg


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## ChrisZwolle

A8 Salzburg - München:

AS Anger. There wasn't even signage to indicate this horrible exit!


----------



## panda80

does somebody know if missing sections of A14 Magdeburg-Schwerin will ever be built, and when?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Reichsautobahn A9 Triptis - Schleiz*

This video follows the A9 south, which still resembles the 1930's Reichsautobahn, with bad concrete, no shoulders and a narrow alignment. This is the last section to be widened to 2x3 lanes.

Location:


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## Verso

^^ A lot of shaking!  Is this pavement really from 1936?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't know. May be, but I would expect some war damage then, so I think it's post-WWII pavement.


----------



## 909

Very good there is a speedlimit on that crappy part of the A9. Otherwise you and your car might end up like this.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A4 Bad Hersfeld - Erfurt - Hermsdorfer Kreuz*

_Click on the title to view the full 173 picture set_

A drive on the A4 eastbound, all the way from the Kirchheimer Dreieck near Bad Hersfeld via Eisenach, Erfurt and Jena to the Hermsdorfer Kreuz, a distance of 180 kilometers. The A4 is an Autobahn of contrasts, the substandard narrow part between Bad Hersfeld and Eisenach, and the wide open spaces east of Eisenach. 

route:









1. Distances after Dreieck Kirchheim.









2. Torn down bridge.









3. This part of Hessen is very wooded and hilly.









4. Exit Bad Hersfeld.









5. A big distribution center of Amazon, we're in the center of Germany after all.









6. Many sections are limited to 120 km/h.









7. Exit Friedewald.









8. Exit Wildeck-Hönebach.









9. 









10. Through the hills.









11. Exit Wildeck-Obersuhl.









12. Exit Gerstungen.









13. Yay six lanes!









14. Exit Herleshausen.









15. Former DDR border.









16. Rest area Ramsberg.









17. Exit Eisenach-West. A new alignment for the A4 is build around Eisenach.









18. Faded B7 sign.









19. Eisenach-Mitte.









20. Eisenach-Ost.









21. Wutha-Farnroda.









22. Another substandard section.









23. Six lanes again.









24. Distances.









25. Gotha-Boxberg.









26. Exit Gotha.









27. Exit Wandersleben.









28. Kreuz Erfurt ahead, but first an exit.









29. Exit Neudietendorf.









30. Interchange Erfurt. 









31. The wide open spaces of Thüringen.









32. 









33. Erfurt-West.









34. Erfurt-Ost.









35. Erfurt-Vieselbach.









36. Exit Nohra.









37. Exit Weimar.









38. Exit Apolda.









39. View.









40. 









41. Exit Magdala.









42. Exit Schorba.









43. Nice exit.









44. Nice entrance. I try to avoid all "car-only" rest areas in Germany.









45. Roadworks ahead.









46. Jena exits ahead.









47. Exit Jena-Göschwitz.









48. The city of Jena ahead.









49. Jena-Zentrum.









50. A new six-lane tunnels is build here.









51. Jena-Zentrum.









52. Stadtroda.









53. München is also signed now.









54. Hermsdorfer Kreuz.









55. 









56. End of the set.


----------



## 909

Pic 44 :runaway:


----------



## Mateusz

DDR ! That's how we roll 

I really don't like these substandard secntion on A4, last time there I had a feeling like all cars are too close to each other


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Unfallstrecke


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## Mateusz

And lack of entrance ramps is really dangerous these days, at least on these jammed, narrow 2X2 none does like 150-200 km/h


----------



## Timon91

I remember the DDR border well, I had lunch there last time I was there (2007) 

About the lack of entrance lanes: when I was on this section (the other direction, btw) I remember cars waiting in line to enter the motorway. You really need space to accelerate in order to avoid accidents hno:


----------



## Palance

In 2007 there was no DDR border anymore 

The A4 was interupted during the cold war near Wommen since a part of the A4 ran through DDR-territory. After the reunification of Germany this part was finally completed.


----------



## Mateusz

I noticed, border parts of motorways between BRD and DDR were kinda crossed out on maps 

Why ? No entry ?


----------



## Timon91

Of course, but the border station buildings are still there, and they turned part of it into a restaurant


----------



## Alqaszar

Before the reunification, the A 4 crossed the territory of the GDR once for several kilometres before re-entering West-Germany again and then finally going to the Eastern part.

This part, the so-called "Thüringer Zipfel", was closed until after 1990. The traffic was led out at Wildeck-Obersuhl (although the last exit would have been Gerstungen -- the town was in Eastern Germany, the exit on Western territory, so the exit made no sense -- and the Autobahn was interrupted by the Iron Curtain.

The B 400 led to the exit Wommen, where the A 4 could be re-entered after coming to Western territory again. Then, Herleshausen was the very last exit in the Federal Republic of Germyn before entering the GDR.

The Eastern checkpoint was named "Warta" after the local river, but not to the close town of Eisenach, for what reasons ever...


----------



## DarySLO

WOW, I love these 6 lanes highways in Germany and picture 31, awesome, windmills in background. I want more!


----------



## Abdallah K.

I dont know to much about Autobahns but is it true you could go as fast as you want on them, and there is no speedlimit?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Abdallah K. said:


> I dont know to much about Autobahns but is it true you could go as fast as you want on them, and there is no speedlimit?


That's true Abdallah 

Well, about 60% has no speed limit. But most Germans do not drive over 170 km/h in my experience. Only few Germans drive really fast. Most traffic is around 140-150 km/h.


----------



## ABRob

Verso said:


> Is this pavement really from 1936?


Definately not.
I'd say 1980ies.


----------



## Patrick

nice set, chris, as usual.

I hope, that I can drive on the A4 east of Eisenach (Hörselberge) again, before that part will be closed. Although it's substandard, I really like the scenery and the feeling to drive more on a parkway rather than on a motorway


----------



## NCT

I see some rather concealed-looking exits and service ramps. Also, those long stretches without a hard shoulder - are they still Autobahns?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

NCT said:


> Also, those long stretches without a hard shoulder - are they still Autobahns?


Yes. I think they would be downgraded to expressways in most other countries though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Patrick said:


> I hope, that I can drive on the A4 east of Eisenach (Hörselberge) again, before that part will be closed. Although it's substandard, I really like the scenery and the feeling to drive more on a parkway rather than on a motorway


What's the completion date for the new bypass of Eisenach? And when will the remaining parts of the A4 between Bad Hersfeld and Dresden be upgraded to 6 lanes?

terms like "Weiteren Bedarf" or "Vordringlicher Bedarf" don't say that much.


----------



## King-Krunch

ChrisZwolle, regarding your last picture post:

That narrow stretch between Magdala and Göschwitz will be history in a few years. It will be replaced by the Jagdberg Tunnel. That big heap you can see in pic 45 is actually excavated material from the tunnel construction. They are way ahead of schedule (about 10 months if i remember correctly) because the geology turned out less challenging than previously feared. In fact the breakthrough ceremony for the tunnel tubes will take place on August 27th, less than a week from now 

On a side note: The second tube of that other tunnel you showed in pic 50 is supposed to open at the end of September.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Video: A7 Kassel - Bad Hersfeld*

Watch below or in HD on the youtube site


----------



## Rohne

As funds are not enough to finance all useful projects until a specific point (actually this point is 2015), the projects are differentiated in "Vordringlicher Bedarf" (urgent need) and "Weiterer Bedarf" (additional need). "Vordringlich" in this case means that the project may be planned and are likely to be started or even finished until 2015. Most projects of "Weiterer Bedarf" will most likely not see a single Euro before 2015.
Unfortunately, the A4 between Kirchheimer Dreieck (A5,A7) and Wommen (the A44 from Dortmund and Kassel will join there when finished) is only listed in "Weiterer Bedarf", but the section west of Wildeck-Obersuhl, where the shoulders are missing, will be upgraded the next years (they already began as you can see near Kirchheimer Dreick especially westbound): shoulders and a 3rd lane in climbing sections will be added and curves defused. The remaining parts between Wommen and Dresden that don't have 6 lanes plus shoulders yet are already under construction.
Adding shoulders and lengthen acceleration/decelaration lanes will be done to all motorways if they don't have yet. It just takes some time


----------



## mgk920

Rohne said:


> As funds are not enough to finance all useful projects until a specific point (actually this point is 2015), the projects are differentiated in "Vordringlicher Bedarf" (urgent need) and "Weiterer Bedarf" (additional need). "Vordringlich" in this case means that the project may be planned and are likely to be started or even finished until 2015. Most projects of "Weiterer Bedarf" will most likely not see a single Euro before 2015.
> Unfortunately, the A4 between Kirchheimer Dreieck (A5,A7) and Wommen (the A44 from Dortmund and Kassel will join there when finished) is only listed in "Weiterer Bedarf", but the section west of Wildeck-Obersuhl, where the shoulders are missing, will be upgraded the next years (they already began as you can see near Kirchheimer Dreick especially westbound): shoulders and a 3rd lane in climbing sections will be added and curves defused. The remaining parts between Wommen and Dresden that don't have 6 lanes plus shoulders yet are already under construction.
> Adding shoulders and lengthen acceleration/decelaration lanes will be done to all motorways if they don't have yet. It just takes some time


What's the current schedule on connecting the A44 to the A4 in that area?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A93 Hof - Regensburg*

_Click on the title to view the full set._

This set follows A93 southbound, from Dreieck Hochfranken near Hof, along the Czech border past Weiden all the way down south to the city of Regensburg, a distance of 180 kilometers. I suspect this route used to be a Bundesstrasse, since the exit density along A93 is rather high for a rural Autobahn (compared to A9 or A7). 

Route:









1. Distances after Dreieck Hochfranken. Begin A93 south.









2. A bit over the top to designate Hof as part of the Nürnberg metropolitan area in my opinion.









3. Exit Hof-Zentrum. This part of A93 was opened in 2000, and I drove it in 2002 for the first time.









4. Travelling through the Fichtelgebirge, an extension of the Erzgebirge (Ore Mountains)









5. Exit Regnitzlosau.









6. Hof-Süd and Rehau-Nord quickly after eachother.









7. Exit Hof-Süd.









8. Rehau-Nord. This area is very tranquil, with lots of forests and hills. Ideal for those who are searching for quiet peaceful surroundings.









9. Rehau-Süd.









10. Exit Schönwald.









11. Exit Selb-Nord. Exit here for As in extreme western Czechia.









12. Noise protection tunnels near Selb.









13. The next morning.









14. Exit Höchstädt.









15. Distances.









16. Exit Thiersheim.









17. Exit Wunsiedel.









18. Exit Marktredwitz. Also to Cheb in Czechia.









19. Marktredwitz-Süd. South of here is new for me.









20. Exit Pechbrunn.









21. Exit Mitterteich-Nord.









22. Exit Wiesau.









23. Distances.









24. Entering the Oberpfälzer Wald. Which has nothing to do with the Pfalz in western Germany.









25. Exit Falkenberg.









26. Exit Windischeschenbach.









27. Closing in on Regensburg.









28. Two exits follow suit.









29. Exit Neustadt an der Waldnaab.









30. Exit Altenstadt an der Waldnaab.









31. Exit Weiden-Nord. Weiden is the largest town between Hof and Regensburg.









32. Two quick exits again.









33. Exit Weiden-West.









34. Exit Weiden-Frauenricht.









35. Exit Weiden-Süd.









36. Concrete now.









37. Exit Luhe-Wildenau. Another place noone have ever heard of. 









38. Approaching Interchange Kreuz Oberpfälzer Wald. 









39. First exit Wernberg-Köblitz.









40. Last distance sign with Praha on it.









41. The new interchange with A6. This one opened a few years ago.









42. Looking onto A6 direction Nürnberg.









43. Exit Pfreimd.









44. I'm heading for Passau.









45. Exit Nabburg.









46. Exit Schwarzenfeld.









47. Exit Schwandorf-Nord.









48. Exit Schwandorf-Mitte. This used to be the old route from Nürnberg to southern Czechia.









49. Exit to Cham. I once went skiing in that area.









50. Exit Schwandorf-Süd.









51. Exit Teublitz.









52. Exit Ponholz. Many unimportant exits along A93.









53. Regensburg is not far now.









54. Exit Regenstauf.









55. Exit Regensburg. Speed limit drops to a sleepy 80 km/h.









56. Distances. Not much to sign for A93, though the end of A93 is still quite a distance away.









57. Tunnel ahead.









58. Regensburg-West.









59. Exit Regensburg-Prüfening.









60. Regensburg-Königswiesen.









61. Exit Regensburg-Kumpfmühl.









62. Kreuz Regensburg with A3.









63. Connector to Nürnberg.









64. My exit to Passau.








:cheers::cheers::cheers:


----------



## Matz32Z

A93 nice road 



ChrisZwolle said:


> *A93 Hof - Regensburg*


Mobil Speed Camera Point


----------



## NCT

British motorways are much more generous when it comes to entrances, exits and sliproads compare to German Autobahns. Most sliproads connecting motorways is Britain have full-width hard-shoulder too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

True, Germany could improve that. accelerating lanes could be somewhat longer too, especially with the high speed nature of the German Autobahn. It doesn't seem to be a real priority though.


----------



## HAWC1506

ChrisZwolle said:


> True, Germany could improve that. accelerating lanes could be somewhat longer too, especially with the high speed nature of the German Autobahn. It doesn't seem to be a real priority though.


American highways on the other hand have on-ramps so long that you won't really need an accelerating lane. But the trade-off is that you have to merge into traffic as soon as you enter the highway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It also depends on how the on-ramp is build. It's not uncommon in Europe to have a tight curve just before entering the motorway, so you can't run the on-ramp in full-speed. Diamond interchanges are not as common as in the U.S. These are also common, but don't allow as much acceleration as straight diamonds.


----------



## HAWC1506

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ It also depends on how the on-ramp is build. It's not uncommon in Europe to have a tight curve just before entering the motorway, so you can't run the on-ramp in full-speed. Diamond interchanges are not as common as in the U.S. These are also common, but don't allow as much acceleration as straight diamonds.


^^ And if you take identical interchanges from both continents and placed them next to each other, the U.S. one will generally be bigger.

I also noticed something in this picture.










Does Germany not grind grooves in the concrete to improve traction? What kind of concrete is that? The surface is noticibly rougher than untreated Portland Cement Concrete in the U.S.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This section opened somewhere in the 1960's as one of the first parts of A93 north of Regensburg. (source: German wiki). I think the concrete may be that old. It's not very bad because the traffic volumes on A93 are not very high.


----------



## MAG

HAWC1506 said:


> Does Germany not grind grooves in the concrete to improve traction?



Generally, no. At least not like in the US where grooves are cut in the direction of traffic flow. Modern concrete autobahns in Germany and neighbouring countries normally have brushed concrete, where the brushed grooves are made at 90º to traffic flow, as far as I know. This often gives rise to a whining noise on some stretches of the road where the workers had a ... 'difficult day' and pressed too hard on the brush. 

I will be in Germany this week and if I run into a bit of stau (traffic jam) I will take a picture of the road surface close up for your pleasure.


.


----------



## mgk920

MAG said:


> Generally, no. At least not like in the US where grooves are cut in the direction of traffic flow. Modern concrete autobahns in Germany and neighbouring countries normally have brushed concrete, where the brushed grooves are made at 90º to traffic flow, as far as I know. This often gives rise to a whining noise on some stretches of the road where the workers had a ... 'difficult day' and pressed too hard on the brush.
> 
> I will be in Germany this week and if I run into a bit of stau (traffic jam) I will take a picture of the road surface close up for your pleasure.
> 
> 
> .


'SOP' at least here in Wisconsin is to cut grooves crosswise into the concrete on major highways, a process called 'tining'. Most concrete paving on major highways here, including freeways/motorways and expressways, is done that way.

Texturing on lower-class roads and local streets is often done by dragging Astroturf (or a similar rough fabric material) lengthwise along the fresh concrete.

Also, often both is done on major roads.

Later on, it is not unusual for concrete paving to be smoothened out with a diamond wheel grinder if its ride starts getting rough, although asphalt overlays are common on really old concrete.

Mike


----------



## SuperSergei

MAG said:


> Generally, no. At least not like in the US where grooves are cut in the direction of traffic flow. Modern concrete autobahns in Germany and neighbouring countries normally have brushed concrete, where the brushed grooves are made at 90º to traffic flow, as far as I know. This often gives rise to a whining noise on some stretches of the road where the workers had a ... 'difficult day' and pressed too hard on the brush.
> 
> I will be in Germany this week and if I run into a bit of stau (traffic jam) I will take a picture of the road surface close up for your pleasure.
> 
> 
> .


Here are 3 photos from concrete road surface which I took some weeks ago. It`s from A7 near Göttingen.


----------



## HAWC1506

^^Do you know the age of that concrete? I ask because in the U.S., new concrete often has a really smooth surface, thus requiring the horizontal tining. The concrete in your pictures seems to have a rough surface already. Could it be different types of concrete or simply aged concrete?



MAG said:


> Generally, no. At least not like in the US where grooves are cut in the direction of traffic flow. Modern concrete autobahns in Germany and neighbouring countries normally have brushed concrete, where the brushed grooves are made at 90º to traffic flow, as far as I know. This often gives rise to a whining noise on some stretches of the road where the workers had a ... 'difficult day' and pressed too hard on the brush.
> 
> I will be in Germany this week and if I run into a bit of stau (traffic jam) I will take a picture of the road surface close up for your pleasure..


That would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.

I took a picture of a concrete section on I-405 in Washington State. It's not very old, but due to studded tire use, it's been worn out quite a bit. That brings me to another question. Are studded tires allowed in Germany?


----------



## SuperSergei

I`m not sure how old how old the concrete is.

Studded tires are not allowed in Germany.


----------



## Matz32Z

Autobahn A8 Augsburg-Munchen






Munchen Richard Strauss Tunnel


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Video: A93, A3 Regensburg*

A drive on A93 south and then A3 east bypass Regensburg. The city has quite some exits, as seen in this video.

Watch here in HD on the Youtube site or below:


----------



## Mateusz

A93 really resemble Polish expressway


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Salzburg - München*

_Click on the title to view the full set._

This set follows A8 westbound from Salzburg at the Austrian border to München. This part of the A8 is really a road with two faces, the first half is a narrow aligned former Reichsautobahn with tight exits and nearly no shoulders, the second half is a wide 6 lane autobahn.

route:









1. 









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.









7.









8.









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.









15.









16.









17.









18.









19.









20.









21.









22.









23.









24.









25.









26.









27.









28.









29.









30.









31.









32.









33.









34.









35.









36.









37.









38.









39.









40.









41.









42.









43.









:cheers::cheers::cheers:


----------



## Des

Very nice Chris! I drove the bit from Munchen to Rosenheim earlier this year, lovely bit of 2x3 autobahn with sweeping bends and stunning views


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## Timon91

I was on this section twice in july, I didn't really like it though


----------



## bozata90

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A8 Salzburg - München*
> 
> :cheers::cheers::cheers:


The part Salzburg - Rosenheim is the most horrible Autobahn in the whole country... Narrow, curved, with many steep ascends. It feels really scary to drive or be driven there. They should think of an upgrade.


----------



## Mateusz

It's most horrible motorway in Germany after A11


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A22 planned alignment:









I can't wait until this motorway is build, together with A20 towards Lübeck. It would save me over an hour to Denmark, and a lot of potential congestion around Hamburg.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another important project in that region is the widening of A1 between Bremen and Hamburg. The connecting part from Osnabrück to Bremen will also be widened to 2x3 lanes.


----------



## Morsue

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another important project in that region is the widening of A1 between Bremen and Hamburg. The connecting part from Osnabrück to Bremen will also be widened to 2x3 lanes.


I drove the A1 from Hamburg to Köln in June, and I'm doing the other way around in three week's time. The A1, especially from Hamburg to Bremen, was horrible. I'm thinking about going over Hannover on the A2 to avoid that stretch. It's a few kms longer, but should take an hour less or so.


----------



## Mateusz

How many are there kilometres of 2X3 motorways in Germany approx ?


----------



## mgk920

^^


ChrisZwolle said:


> A22 planned alignment:
> [snip]
> 
> I can't wait until this motorway is build, together with A20 towards Lübeck. It would save me over an hour to Denmark, and a lot of potential congestion around Hamburg.


What is the status of the section of the planned A22 between Neumünster and the A1 at Oldenberg, especially with the planned Puttgarden-Rodbyhavn crossing now having been green-lighted?

Also, with the A20 being planned to run as it is, I would think that the part of the A22 that is shown on your map would work best as a numbering extension of the A20, reserving the A22 number for the Neumünster-Oldenberg section, should it ever be built.

Mike


----------



## JB Colbert

Hallo friends!
Someone could explain please how does works the Autobahn numbering rules?
For example I see that exist the A650 but there isn't 650 autobahn in Germany.
(ot not? :sly
Thank you for the answers!


----------



## PLH

German Autobahns are divided into two groups: national and regional. National ones are numbered from 1 to 99, and regional from 100 to 999. 

I don't know the exact rules for giving a given number, but Germany surely does not have 999 Autobahns


----------



## JB Colbert

Thanks PLH.
It seams, or it seams to me, that the Autobahn are divided by axis, for example from west-bound to est-bound or from noth to south and so on.
From this axis origin some diversion, for example the A61 is a diversion of A6.

Some of this axis are incomplete, for example a part of A4, but the axis is "visible" and clear, it goes from NL to PL, and from A4 origin the A44.
Is it true?
Tnx again


----------



## JB Colbert

About concrete road surface:
I drove in june on the A61, was a heavy rain day, on the surface there was almost 10 cm of water, it was very very dangerous!!!
We had to stop the car and wait for the rain stops.

Maybe this kind of surface is excellent in the winter to avoid freezed surface or breaked surface or something else, but is very dangerous with the rain.


----------



## Letniczka

PLH said:


> German Autobahns are divided into two groups: national and regional. National ones are numbered from 1 to 99, and regional from 100 to 999


Wrong.
Main Autobahns, national/international: A+one digit
Regional: A+two digits
Local: A+three digits

-> wikipedia German/English


----------



## PLH

Yeah, I confused regional with local.


----------



## JB Colbert

Letniczka said:


> Wrong.
> Main Autobahns, national/international: A+one digit
> Regional: A+two digits
> Local: A+three digits
> 
> -> wikipedia German/English


Somehow is what I guess, A+one digit= national axis and the other, A+2 or 3 digit, are diversion (regional/local).


----------



## bozata90

JB Colbert said:


> Somehow is what I guess, A+one digit= national axis and the other, A+2 or 3 digit, are diversion (regional/local).


Just check here, everything you need is written!


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## JB Colbert

Thank you very much!


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## epigon

Mateusz said:


> How many are there kilometres of 2X3 motorways in Germany approx ?


I don't know the exact number of kilometres of 2x3 motorways, but I can share with you the map of german motorways showing the number of lanes.
http://rapidshare.com/files/273834642/autobahnkarteOhneAS.rar


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## Mateusz

Thanks for that 

A22 looks like one of those outnumbered big projects in Germany along with A14 or A25


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## ChrisZwolle

A39 Wolfsburg - Lüneburg is also an interesting project.


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## Mateusz

Yes, fullfilling the empty space of Eastern Germany 


I would like to see also motorway from Chemnitz to CZ (Prague) 

And also extension south of Hof so ti would join R6 at czech side too


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## Mateusz

pmaciej7 said:


> I samochody składają się na zamek błyskawiczny.
> 
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> To coś pod kogutami rozwinęło się w ekran. Prawa strzałka jest animowana i rozwija się skręcając w lewo.
> 
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> Radiowóz jedzie tyłem po poboczu, aż do chwili, gdy dojedzie do miejsca przed końcem korka.
> 
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> 
> Oczywiście znalazł się ktoś, komu się spieszy (u nas byłby to PO***** z antenami CB radia?). Ale jak widać, generalnie tłum jest zdyscyplinowany.
> 
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> Dojeżdżam do miejsca wypadku.
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> Ślady hamowania.
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> Za wozem strażackim ustawili się Bonrat i Herzberger, a dalej stał wrak.
> 
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> Główny podmiot zdarzeń.
> 
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> 
> I już za miejscem wypadku, wszyscy się rozpędzają i jadą dalej na Rugię. Jak widać, tamtemu niewiele zabrakło, żeby dojechać do Meklemburgii.


Unfall on A20


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## ChrisZwolle

> Bonrat i Herzberger


Weren't they from Cobra 11?


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## pmaciej7

Mateusz said:


> Unfall on A20


I wanted to post that pictures! 



ChrisZwolle said:


> Weren't they from Cobra 11?


Also Gerkan and Kranich 

--------------------------

So again, A20 between Prenzlau-Ost and Pasewalk-Süd (selction of pics; others on polish forum).



































[/QUOTE]
































































20 minutes later.


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## Timon91

Interesting pics, pmaciej7! How long did this accident delay you?


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## PLH

20 minutes

I know you wanted to write that :tongue3:


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## pmaciej7

PLH said:


> I know you wanted to write that :tongue3:


I already did that: 



pmaciej7 said:


> 20 minutes later.


:tongue4:


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## Timon91

:doh: Missed that one. That's not too bad actually. I've been stuck on the A3 for 3,5 hours because of an accident (Vollsperre) in 2006.


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## pmaciej7

Luckily car stood on emergency lane, so Police could open left lane to traffic. Left lane was also clean - no traces of braking (except these seen on picture - Bonrat and Herzberger could stop traffic for 5 minutes, measure them, shoot some pictures and let the cars drive again), no splinters of glass, no oil.

It was also a good decision leaving quickly rest area after seeing fire cars, drive as far as possible and stop on the beginning of the jam. When i turned around on next exit, i saw cars standing on 3-4 km.


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## Mateusz

On some motorways traffic seem really low but in case of accidents it always gives massive jams


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## Timon91

3-4 km isn't massive.


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## ChrisZwolle

It is when you're stopped for hours. 

My record is one hour for a 1 km traffic jam. Another record is 1 hour to get out of The Hague, from the center to the A12. 

The German rush hour traffic is not really bad, most delays are created by accidents, road works, holiday traffic or winter weather. I have driven in the Ruhr area during rush hour several times, and the congestion is only a fraction of what you see in metro-Randstad.


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## JB Colbert

I'm completely agree with you.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A3 Regensburg - Passau (A)*

_Click on the title to view the full set._

This set follows A3 southeast from Regensburg via Deggendorf and Passau to the Austrian border. This section is 135 kilometers long.

route:









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15. buying vignettes.









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## Timon91

ChrisZwolle said:


> My record is one hour for a 1 km traffic jam. Another record is 1 hour to get out of The Hague, from the center to the A12.


In that case my record is 3,5 hours for 0,7 km


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## Mateusz

Are there many old motorway signs in Germany ? You can notice by really dark blue colour


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## ChrisZwolle

There are a lot of old signs in the Ruhr area. Also on regular roads. I have seen a sign in Essen that said A "4 0" (used to be A430)


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## PLH

As well as in Berlin, espicially on A1xx Autobahns.


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## x-type

did you guys know about toll station in Germany? i have found one, it's in Rostock at the road 105 (end of A19) for underwater tunnel Warnow. it really surprised me!


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## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, the Warnowtunnel. I believe it's the only toll tunnel in Germany. 

I have seen that MAUT sign in Nürnberg too, where the urban expressway becomes the A73. It's tolled for trucks.


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## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's tolled for trucks.


but it probably doesn't have toll plazas


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## ChrisZwolle

No, the German truck maut is with transponders or pre-programmed routes on a payment terminal. I believe about 98% of the tolls are payed by the transponder boxes. 

If Europe wants a toll system, I think the easiest would be one with license plate recognition. You can create an account and are billed automatically every time you pass under a license plate camera. People without an account will also be billed, but with an increased fee for the administration costs to find out the owner of the vehicle. This system exists in Texas and is called "ZipCash". That way you don't need a transponder in the vehicle.


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## Timon91

A transponder which is compatible in the whole of Europe is also an option, but countries seem to develop their own system for that (like Slovakia).


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## pijanec

EU administration should step in and take decision for some system. If they could decide about vegetables and lightbulbs, then that's the least they can do.


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## ChrisZwolle

http://www.bild.de/BILD/regional/mu...a7-von-flensburg-bis-fuessen-freigegeben.html

The A7 has been completed as of 1 september 2009. The last part near Füssen has been opened to traffic!


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## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> No, the German truck maut is with transponders or pre-programmed routes on a payment terminal. I believe about 98% of the tolls are payed by the transponder boxes.


yes, i know that. but this at Warnowtunnel is probably the only toll plaza in D


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## SuperSergei

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.bild.de/BILD/regional/mu...a7-von-flensburg-bis-fuessen-freigegeben.html
> 
> The A7 has been completed as of 1 september 2009. The last part near Füssen has been opened to traffic!



That`s nice! I`m going to München in 2 weeks, and the plan is to drive A7 from Flensburg to "Kreuz Ulm A7/A8".


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ That part has been completed for like 20 years at least (the last gap was somewhere between Würzburg and Ulm in the 80's). Some parts of the A7 opened as early as 1937.


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## ChrisZwolle

By the way, if you're going to München, the A3-A9 route via Nürnberg might be better, because A8 is lined up with workzones. A9 is six laned all the way from Nürnberg to München (even 8 lanes partially).


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## SuperSergei

ChrisZwolle said:


> By the way, if you're going to München, the A3-A9 route via Nürnberg might be better, because A8 is lined up with workzones. A9 is six laned all the way from Nürnberg to München (even 8 lanes partially).


 Maybe I`ll do that, thanks for the advice!


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.bild.de/BILD/regional/mu...a7-von-flensburg-bis-fuessen-freigegeben.html
> 
> The A7 has been completed as of 1 september 2009. The last part near Füssen has been opened to traffic!


What about Austria?


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## convalescence

There's another toll tunnel in Germany: at the road from Lübeck to Travemünde

I believe the situation there is called private-public-partnership

it's located here: http://maps.google.de/maps?q=lübeck...3.887749,10.741539&spn=0.092876,0.241356&z=12


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ interesting!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herren_Tunnel

I never knew that. It opened in 2005.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A44 Dortmund - Kassel*

_Click on the title to view the full set._

This set follows A44 eastbound from Dortmund to Kassel, passing through the northern edge of the Sauerland range. After you've passed Werl, the road becomes much quieter, because much traffic goes deeper into the Sauerland.
This route is almost 150 kilometers long.

route:









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42. wtf Kassel 20km?!









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:cheers::cheers::cheers:


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## convalescence

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ interesting!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herren_Tunnel
> 
> I never knew that. It opened in 2005.


My favourite topic to complain about (Hochmoselübergang) was in discussion for public-private-partnership like the tunnels in Rostock and Lübeck, too. ^^

From what I heard both toll tunnels in the north are flops due to less users than expected.

Here an article in Spiegel (in german) about Herrentunnel: http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,508539,00.html


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## Albaneren

Germany have the best motorways in the world.


----------



## thun

Finally, after a glorious battle for 30 years (!) environmentalists lost and the last stretch of A7 was opened. :lol:

Regarding tolls: 2+2 bridges, tunnels and roads financed by private investors can be tolled in Germany for a few years now. The Warnowtunnel is the best known, another example would be the Herrentunnel in Lübeck. Some more projects (including some bridges/tunnels on the Elbe around Hamburg) are planned.


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## HAWC1506

So I'm thinking about a career in civil engineering and I was wondering how what the prospects of a job in Europe are. Is there high demand for jobs in Europe? And what about high-level education?


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## ChrisZwolle

Less and less people choose for a "beta" job, so technical jobs do have a good prospect. I know there has been a lack of traffic engineers in the Netherlands for years.


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## HAWC1506

ChrisZwolle said:


> Less and less people choose for a "beta" job, so technical jobs do have a good prospect. I know there has been a lack of traffic engineers in the Netherlands for years.


I know that the UK has a very high demand for civil engineers, and as you pointed out, the Netherlands probably does too. What about Germany?


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## ChrisZwolle

I think a problem with Germany is that you need to know some good German to get a job there. Maybe my perception is a bit wrong, but English isn't as normal in Germany as it is in the Netherlands or Scandinavia. (and the UK of course).


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## Mateusz

HAWC1506 said:


> I know that the UK has a very high demand for civil engineers, and as you pointed out, the Netherlands probably does too. What about Germany?


Many people thinks that it's jut boring and too hard. Everyone wants to do psychology or something


----------



## thun

I guess civil engineers have quite good professional opportunities in Germany, too.
But you need to know German, though. Most of them work in public administration (where English isn't spoken, obviously) or run/work in small companies which work in a pretty limited regional scale (and where English isn't used either). Of course, there might be some jobs in bgger companies which operate world wide and where English is needed, but I guess its the minority.

As for all engineer careers, the German universitys have a pretty good reputation (worldwide), I would say.


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## 909

The exit lane on the left side, Autobahn 46 just west of Dusseldorf.


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## ChrisZwolle

Back in 2006:


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## Dantiscum

Well... if I remeber well, this is a regular Kreuz and this Neuss direction is not an exit, you just go straight ahead (but the road behind the Kreuz isn't a motorway anymore - the main motorway traffic goes to the right and then split)


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## SuperSergei

A81 near Stuttgart und Böbblingen has a exit lane to the left, to Gärtringen and Nufringen (14)


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## SuperSergei

I found a picture....


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## He Named Thor

Lol, that's such a common thing here. In urban areas anyway. 

Not that we can match Germany in highway design.


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## thun

^^
The reason is quite easy to explain:
Unlike in the States, on German motorways you have to drive on the right lane, the left is used for overtaking only (at least according to the law). With an exit lane on the left you would need to cross the left lane where cars can go really fast which would be of course potentially dangerous.


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## muc

I think the Gaertringen exit is just a relic of a planned junction. Originally the A81 should have continued further north from here directly to Leonberger Dreieck. That stretch was never built.


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## HAWC1506

thun said:


> I guess civil engineers have quite good professional opportunities in Germany, too.
> But you need to know German, though. Most of them work in public administration (where English isn't spoken, obviously) or run/work in small companies which work in a pretty limited regional scale (and where English isn't used either). Of course, there might be some jobs in bgger companies which operate world wide and where English is needed, but I guess its the minority.
> 
> As for all engineer careers, the German universitys have a pretty good reputation (worldwide), I would say.


I guess I'll start learning German then hahaha


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is also an interesting project, the A20 around Hamburg. It will connect with A22 towards Bremerhaven and the Netherlands.


----------



## Alqaszar

Interestingly, the A 20 will change the number to A 22 at Drochtersen junction. Maybe that won't happen and the A 20 will go further west, the A 22 is in the planning process actually, too.


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## Timon91

Yeah, I wonder why they would adopt A22 instead of just continuing the A20. The A26 heads south, but the A20 could just continue further west to Bremerhaven.


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## Antonio_Vivaldi

HAWC1506 said:


> So I'm thinking about a career in civil engineering and I was wondering how what the prospects of a job in Europe are. Is there high demand for jobs in Europe? And what about high-level education?


In Poland e.g. there are quite easy to find a job for civil engineer, you have to study 5 years, and coures are difficult, you should be good in math and phisic.


----------



## MAG

Some examples of fine German engineering spotted on the A2 (D) and A4 (PL) last week:










A classic Trabant 










Not quite sure what this one was, probably a vintage Mercedes










A gorgeously beautiful VW










A rare Wartburg Kombi with even rarer DDR sticker.
Man hat's, oder man hat's nicht! 



.


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## MAG

HAWC1506 said:


> ... That would be greatly appreciated! Thank you. I took a picture of a concrete section on I-405 in Washington State ...



As promised, here are some examples of concrete road surface from Germany and Poland. 
The brushing is done normally as in the Polish example (i.e. at 90° to traffic low) but there are many places where the brush lines are as in Fig. 2:









Autostrada A4 in Poland near Wrocław










Autobahn A2 in Germany near Magdeburg


.


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## RipleyLV

I was there last year! :cheers:


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## michael_siberia

ChrisZwolle said:


> 6.


Quite interesting sign for integrated IC :cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen - Osnabrück*

A30 westbound, from Bad Oeynhausen to Osnabrück, about 45 kilometers.

*Watch here in HD* or below:


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## JB Colbert

HAWC1506 said:


> The single sloped surface?


I mean the concrete surface, in case of rain fall doesn't drain the water that remain on the surface causing the Aquaplaning phenomenon.


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## yalin155

And for someone to do Foto Motorways A66 from Frankfurt Fulda?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I made pics there last year.

check here


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## 909

These signs are quite common on German roads, but what do they mean? Of are they a relic of the Cold War?


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## Jeroen669

^^ If I'm not mistaken those are maximum weights for military vehicles (in tonnes). Left is for 2 vehicles, right is for one.


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## ChrisZwolle

I believe they are maximum tonnage indications from the Cold War per vehicle type. They are not actual tonnage indications, but are classes. They are close to tonnage though. It also depends if they have tracks or regular wheels.

see also:
Militärische Lastenklasse


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## 909

Thanks!


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## Danielk2

I've seen such a sign in Hjallerup, not too far from where i live, but why would they put those signs in Denmark?


----------



## thun

They can be found at most bridges in West Germany. The Federal administration is removing them slowly on the Autobahnen and Bundesstraßen, but they'll probably remain at other bridges and roads.


----------



## Palance

I have seen on pictures that Kosovo had copied this concept as well.


----------



## Furet

*Historic German Roads (Handelstrasse)*

Hi,

Firstly: My apologies to the mods if this thread is in the wrong place.

I'm researching the course of the Peasants' War or _Der Deutsche Bauernkrieg_ of 1525, tracing the movements of the rebels as they moved from village to village and from town to town through Franconia, around Rothenburg ob der Tauber, the Steigerwald, and along the Main on the approach to Wuerzburg. 

However, looking at Google Earth, almost every single minor road looks realigned and suspiciously straight. I am wondering, are old (1500s) roads still extant and used in Germany? The landscape looks so planned and regulated as to make me think that the old roads are no more.

I am interested, for example, in the location of the old medieval road between Rothenburg and Ansbach, and between Rothenburg and Nuremburg; I am interested in finding the road from Roettingen to Wuerzburg; and also the one from Wildentierbach to Heidingsfeld. In the case of the last example, Google Maps gives this as the modern best route by car: but is this the historical road used in 1525?

Many thanks for your answers. I look forward to your replies. Also, if anyone can suggest a purchasable late medieval map of the area that shows roads, that would be great!


----------



## Verso

Does this _really_ require a special thread? You could've asked in the German thread, historic thread or even in the off-topic thread.


----------



## Furet

Verso said:


> Does this _really_ require a special thread? You could've asked in the German thread, historic thread or even in the off-topic thread.


Then let a mod move it if they wish.


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## 909

What are the intentions of the second Cabinet Merkel for German Autobahns?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What's going on in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern?


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## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> What's going on in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern?


Snow and ice.
German news


----------



## ABRob

I've made some pics of A30-construction today:
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?2,109667,130206#msg-130206
I've included some OpenStreetMap-Links, so you can see the locations.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

When will the last section of A38 open?


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> When will the last section of A38 open?


Around 15th - 22nd December


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ABRob said:


> I've made some pics of A30-construction today:
> http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?2,109667,130206#msg-130206
> I've included some OpenStreetMap-Links, so you can see the locations.


Thanks 

I was there a month ago, but I was kinda disappointed with the progress made after 1 year of construction.


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## piotr71

ABRob said:


> Around 15th - 22nd December


Great news! I used that motorway this summer twice on the way to Calais, it is really good alternative to A4 and A2 going from/to Poland towards/back... England. Only problem I met was in Dortmund. There were massive roadworks on B1. Do you know whether they are finished?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ You can use A1-A2-A3 to get around Dortmund, barely longer, and A2 is 6 lanes all the way with relatively low traffic volumes. A40 is called the biggest parking lot of the Ruhr for a reason.


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## piotr71

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ You can use A1-A2-A3 to get around Dortmund, barely longer, and A2 is 6 lanes all the way with relatively low traffic volumes. A40 is called the biggest parking lot of the Ruhr for a reason.


Thank you sir! I basically drive across Germany in weekends and have no major problems with the traffic. I liked A40 and B1 becouse of architecture around those roads. I reckon A40 as the most interesting motorway I have seen. And these tall trees along B1 in Dortmund...ahh. I love it. This is the reason why I would like to drive there again, but because of the mentioned roadworks I could not fulfill my trip last summer.


----------



## pmaciej7

Berlin, 11.11.2009r. A111 & A100 from Stolpe to Grenzallee.

Map:









Movie:


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## Verso

^^ Cool video, thanks!


----------



## Kidu

A short question: is A94 finished? I drive 5-6 times per year from Romania to Germany (now I live for a period of time in Ulm) and if this section is finished I want to use it. Thank you!


----------



## 909

A small collection of pictures made last friday of the A30, between the Dutch border and the intersection with the A31.


01) Notice the lack of surface marking. Perhaps the worst Autobahn in Germany?




02) Very bad quality of the road. 




03) Very crappy auxiliary lane. 




04) 




05) Entering Schüttorfer Kreuz.




06)




07)




08)


----------



## mhkamp

Double post.


----------



## mhkamp

Pictures from:

BAB29 from Oldenburg to Wilhelmshaven
BAB29 Wilhelmshaven to Oldenburg
BAB250 to Lüneburg
BAB250 from Lüneburg back to Hamburg
Written text is Dutch.

Even I had a movie of the BAB250, see here and the speed is double up.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.suedkurier.de/region/bod...en-und-Leutkirch-zweispurig;art378131,4047471

The last 7 kilometers of A96 between Wangen im Allgäu and Leutkirch in Baden-Württemberg state opened friday at 1500 hrs.


----------



## thun

Kidu said:


> A short question: is A94 finished? I drive 5-6 times per year from Romania to Germany (now I live for a period of time in Ulm) and if this section is finished I want to use it. Thank you!


It's far from being finished. Construction is planned to go untill 2012 due to long lasting court procedures. About 50km are already finished.


----------



## Kidu

OK, thank you!


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.suedkurier.de/region/bod...en-und-Leutkirch-zweispurig;art378131,4047471
> 
> The last 7 kilometers of A96 between Wangen im Allgäu and Leutkirch in Baden-Württemberg state opened friday at 1500 hrs.


Finally. :cheers: Once I lost almost an hour there.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> Wie das Bundesverkehrsministerium gestern auf Anfrage der TA bestätigte, wird der letzte Abschnitt der Autobahn 38, zwischen Breitenworbis und Bleicherode, am Dienstag, dem 22. Dezember, eröffnet. Dabei werde ein Vertreter des Hauses anwesend sein, je nach Terminlage sogar der neue Verkehrsminister Peter Ramsauer (CSU). Mit diesem Tag ist die A 38 komplett zwischen Göttingen und Leipzig befahrbar.


The last section of the A38 (Göttingen - Leipzig) will be opened december 22nd between Breitenworbis and Bleicherode. This Autobahn is 219 kilometers long.


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## DanielFigFoz

Continuation from the Dutch thread...

Dutch border (Roermond)-Düsseldorf via Mackenstein


----------



## snowman159

Very nice high quality photos! kay:


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## keber

pmaciej7 said:


> Berlin, 11.11.2009r. A111 & A100 from Stolpe to Grenzallee.


Very nice video, it covers almost all of inner Berlin Autobahn. But some explanation would be nice, at least major intersection could be marked.


----------



## muc

German Autobahns are not lit (except some inner-city stretches). Neither are other non-urban roads.

I don't see the point of illuminating Autobahns. Cars need to be equipped with proper lights, there should be proper markings on the road and maintenance should be good enough so you don't need to expect surprising holes in the surface or other obstacles. All of that is given on Autobahns.

As a driver I don't feel safer on a road with lighting than I do on a dark one. As pedestrian or on a bicycle it's a different story, but you shouldn't be on an Autobahn then.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Hermsdorfer Kreuz - Hof*

_Click on the title to view the full set_

Some pictures of my Slovenia roadtrip from august 2009. This one follows A9 south from the Hermsdorfer Kreuz towards Hof. Part of this Autobahn is still in 1930's design. 

route:


----------



## bebe.2006

I like the name Lederhose.


----------



## RipleyLV

Sweet photos! Haven't driven there for a long time, and I still remember the town with the name Triptis, it associates me with a Latvian word "striptīzs" which means striptease.


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## Cosmin

That's one sweet looking motorway! I can sense a bit of 1930s-1940s in that motorway...


----------



## thun

Suburbanist said:


> Are there plans to close the small gap between A-96, A-95 and A-995 in southwest Munchen? It seems less than 1.500m are missing to "close" the ringroad, and it seems a pity someone would have to drive through local boulevard or take all the other way around the ringroad to access those highways.


The "Mittlere Ring" (B2r, the ring road around Munichs centre) is going to be redesigned (some more tunnels in that section including a tunnel interchange with the A 95) in order to improve the connection.
The last part of A99 (Munichs autobahn ring) is in planning, but this project will probably take quite a time (if it will be build at all).
In case of going from A96 to A95, you would probably go via Starnberg instead of all the way through Munich. Traffic on that route isn't too much anyway as it's not a transit route. Lorries aren't allowed to go through Munich, they have to use the A99. So on the connection A96 to A995 (transit traffic) only cars pass the Mittlere Ring.

Btw.: Google Maps is misleading there: A995 ends at the exit München-Giesing, then there's a short stretch of the B1 to St. Quirin-Platz (although it has blue signs afaik). The section from there to the northwest is the Mittlere Ring B2r (it connects via Chiemgaustraße to the A8 and A94) which doesn't fulfill Autobahn standards but has no crossroads. At Luise-Kiesselbach-Platz (where the A995 ends) a tunnel with the mentioned junction will be build.


----------



## Timon91

bebe.2006 said:


> I like the name Lederhose.


I was just about to say that


----------



## hofburg

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A9 Hermsdorfer Kreuz - Hof*
> 
> _Click on the title to view the full set_
> 
> Some pictures of my Slovenia roadtrip from august 2009. This one follows A9 south from the Hermsdorfer Kreuz towards Hof. Part of this Autobahn is still in 1930's design.


I like that motorway a lot. lots of forest, up and down hills, lots of those wind-things  and on 3-3 sections you should be watching your back


----------



## OettingerCroat

ChrisZwolle said:


>


super pictures!

i was surprised to see speed limits of 130 km/h on stretches that had no shoulder? :dunno: kinda worries me a bit actually...


----------



## OettingerCroat

this is what I was talking about










130 legally on this stretch of motorway from the era of the Third Reich? :lol:


----------



## Des

I think the A9 from Berlin to Munich is one of the nicest roads to drive on. Some very nice and wide unlimited stretches and also some nice twisty bits over hills and through forests. I drove the full length of it when I went from Berlin to Venice 2 years ago, like to do that again some time.


----------



## thun

Today from Leutkirch (A96)/south of Memmingen (A7) to Stuttgart jammed on practically all parts. Luckily, I went to the other direction... :cheers:


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

[A24] Winter Wonderland
Some photos from today. The quality is crappy, the windscreen is dirty (salt, salt, salt), but the scenery was so beautiful that I can't resist to show those photos anyway


----------



## Pansori

I didn't know there are stretches of Autobahn which have no hard shoulder. Is that a common occurance or are those just leftovers which will be widened and fixed according to the latest standards?


----------



## thun

^^
Its a leftover on large parts of the network buildt before 1945. On some parts they were (or are) replaced (mostly while widening to 3+3). They aren't uncommon on these roads (e.g. large stretches between Karlsruhe and Munich, etc.)


----------



## pijanec

OettingerCroat said:


> i was surprised to see speed limits of 130 km/h on stretches that had no shoulder? :dunno: kinda worries me a bit actually...


There are motorway sections without hard shoulder that even has no speed limit. I don't think it's unsafe.


----------



## michael_siberia

pijanec said:


> There are motorway sections without hard shoulder that even has no speed limit.


Really?

I remember only one section of A11 with narrow shoulder (near Eberswalde?) and without speed limit. It can be dangerous.

On the other hand, there are few people (in Poland), who drive over *230 km/h* on a motorway like this (without any shoulder!).


----------



## pijanec

^^A8


----------



## and802

*post-DDR motorways*

since the reunification (1990) a lot of new motorways were constructed in East Germany. can anybody give some statistics ? at least general figures how many kms were built and the budget for them ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkehrsprojekte_Deutsche_Einheit


----------



## Danielk2

Man, i'd wish that Pkwys even existed in Denmark. Routes where trucks aren't allowed is an extreme rarity


----------



## Christophorus

Here is a video of the recently opened new constructed part of A4 around Eisenach (Hörselberge). 

Credits to the uploader on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIP5L41xb80

And Germany again lost about 10km of mostly original Autobahns from the 1930s. (Ok, that part was really critical i know, but it was just beautiful too with a great view on the Wartburg)

Btw, this new part of A4 is a PPP Project, i cant get the website right now, but who is interested may klick here: www.via-solutions.de


----------



## piotr71

I know that piece of A4 quite well ( older one ). What number will it get, then?


----------



## mgk920

piotr71 said:


> I know that piece of A4 quite well ( older one ). What number will it get, then?


My belief is that the former grade was completely abandoned. A little scrap here or there might have been downgraded to a local road, but I would consider that unlikely.

Mike


----------



## Timon91

Does anybody have a map of the current situation?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Old situation:









New situation:


----------



## Timon91

Ok, thanks


----------



## -Pino-

mgk920 said:


> My belief is that the former grade was completely abandoned. A little scrap here or there might have been downgraded to a local road, but I would consider that unlikely.


This picture from the project website shows what will happen. "Abgestufte BAB4" is the part of the A4 that will be downgraded. The purple colour shows that the town of Eisenach will retain something of a Northern bypass. The dotted line, "zurückzubauende BAB4" is the part of the A4 that will be abandoned. That is indeed the passage of the Hörselberge.


----------



## piotr71

Thanks. Mgk 920 was right saying that some parts are to be abandoned. 

Do you know how it works, this sort of Autobahn's retirement. Are they just remained to get some grass and bushes on them, or they are demolished in certain way?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Demolished:











this actually happened with A44 near Mönchengladbach, and will happen with A61 in the future as well. Also, the A4 between Aachen and Köln will be demolished for mining.


----------



## piotr71

Bloody barbarians hno: what about _denkmaler und geschichte_ policy over there in Germany!?


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> Demolished:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this actually happened with A44 near Mönchengladbach, and will happen with A61 in the future as well. Also, the A4 between Aachen and Köln will be demolished for mining.


Can we expect these highways to be restored once mining is complete?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes. To handle A44 traffic, A61 is streamlined at the interchanges, and widened. Once A61 will be demolished, A44 will be rebuild and handle the north-south traffic.

It's actually amazing if you consider the costs involved in such a project.


----------



## Timon91

The hole they dig is a few hundred meters deep. Are they going to fill it up again to rebuild the A44 or will they fill it up with water and build a bridge across it for the motorway?


----------



## thun

I guess your first option is pretty much impossible.  Usually, old mines in Germany are transformed to recreational areas with lakes and stuff.


----------



## Timon91

I understand, but I just wonder how they want to rebuild the A44. It would be a very deep tunnel


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A1 Bremen - Hamburg in 1988!


----------



## HD

that's how it looks like when they demolish a highway (A44 in 2006)









from: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesautobahn_44


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> A1 Bremen - Hamburg in 1988!


omg, this is valuable video! that's so great to see such good videos from old times. i have some shorter videos at VHS when my parents went abroad in 1980es, i should try to convert them somehow into .mpg (for sure i know there are some frmo France, Spain and Andorra). and i have some from Germany from A7 near Kassel


----------



## thun

Timon91 said:


> I understand, but I just wonder how they want to rebuild the A44. It would be a very deep tunnel


One of the things, the German tax payer doesn't have to bother as the mining company (RWE) pays both demolishion and rebuilding.


----------



## 909

Timon91 said:


> I understand, but I just wonder how they want to rebuild the A44. It would be a very deep tunnel


After removing the lignites most of the area will be restored again. The whole area must undergo rehabilitation, the process of returning the land in a given area to some degree of its former state. In the picture below we can see some special machines (a stacker, in German: _Absetzer_) restoring the area. Notice the small jeep on the right side of the Absetzers in front. 



In the end, the result will be like this. All the farmland in front of the picture has been restored. This was once a part of the open-pit mine Garzweiler.


----------



## mirza-sm

Once I was travelling by bus to Sweden, and we were driving thru Germany. Because we were driving from Bosnia, we had to pass whole Germany in order to get to Sweden, and after some 10 hours of driving, an old man sitting behind was like "We are driving for 10 hours now, when the hell are we gonna pass the city of Ausfahrt". Bahahaha I laughed all the way till Sweden. :lol:


----------



## goschio

thun said:


> One of the things, the German tax payer doesn't have to bother as the mining company (RWE) pays both demolishion and rebuilding.


But mining is heavily subsidized in Germany. So in the end, its the german tax payer who finances all this. Or am I wrong ?


----------



## 909

goschio said:


> But mining is heavily subsidized in Germany. So in the end, its the german tax payer who finances all this. Or am I wrong ?


Coal mining is heavily subsidized (especially for the Ruhr area), open-pit mining is not. 



> In recent years the German government has subsidized coal mining to the tune of more than 160 billion euros ($237 billion). Importing coal from abroad makes more sense than propping up domestic mining, the government has said.
> 
> The shuttering of the Saarland mine is the latest in a series of closures. Last year, the German government announced it would gradually phase out coal mining, which has a 200-year tradition in Germany.
> 
> Germany's eight remaining coal mines employ approximately 33,000 people. The phase-out is planned to start in 2009 and will be finished by 2018, with miners receiving government compensation.
> 
> Deutsche Welle


----------



## Cosmin

mirza-sm said:


> "We are driving for 10 hours now, when the hell are we gonna pass the city of Ausfahrt". Bahahaha I laughed all the way till Sweden. :lol:


LOL!:hilarious


----------



## mapman:cz

Yeah, I experienced this with one of our family friends, we were on Autobahn for approx. an hour when he said, totally confused, that this "Ausfahrt" must be a really big city, if we are passing around it for such a long time... Explosion of laughing was inavoidable ))


----------



## mirza-sm

^^ I guess its a Slavic "thing" :rofl:


----------



## Timon91

An American friend of mine once wondered where the city of "Doorgaand Verkeer" (through traffic) was when he was visiting us in NL :lol:


----------



## x-type

frankly, once i asked myself why is the village Umleitung in Austria so important so they should put special yellow direction sign for it


----------



## FritzMitWitz

x-type said:


> frankly, once i asked myself why is the village Umleitung in Austria so important so they should put special yellow direction sign for it


:lol: Umleitung is such an important city that they close all the other roads because all the ways bring you to Umleitung.


----------



## Danielk2

France also have some of those large cities like "Autres Directions" and "Toutes Directions". They're signed everywhere :rofl:


----------



## HAWC1506

Gotta love Europeans :cheers:

Just a quick question, are exits on the Autobahn numbered? I usually only see a sign saying Ausfahrt, but no number next to it.


----------



## x-type

HAWC1506 said:


> Gotta love Europeans :cheers:
> 
> Just a quick question, are exits on the Autobahn numbered? I usually only see a sign saying Ausfahrt, but no number next to it.


they are. exit number is signed 1 km before exit. here is exit #112 at A1


----------



## Alex Von Königsberg

HAWC1506 said:


> Gotta love Europeans :cheers:
> 
> Just a quick question, are exits on the Autobahn numbered? I usually only see a sign saying Ausfahrt, but no number next to it.


They have exit numbers but not with "Ausfahrt" as it is the case in the USA. Here is an example:


----------



## 3naranze

Danielk2 said:


> France also have some of those large cities like "Autres Directions" and "Toutes Directions". They're signed everywhere :rofl:


Italy also, "Tutte le Direzioni", even in German "alle Richtungen" (seen on Elba Island), often near roundabouts...:cheers:


----------



## NCT

And the UK has 'All Routes' everywhere.


----------



## Suburbanist

I've been one of those to try to figure out where Ausfhart is on the map. Fortunately, proximity between French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian names saved me for such a shame in those countries


----------



## mirza-sm

Suburbanist said:


> I've been one of those to try to figure out where Ausfhart is on the map. Fortunately, proximity between French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian names saved me for such a shame in those countries


Are you the old fella who was sitting behind me in the bus to Sweden?


----------



## flierfy

HAWC1506 said:


> Just a quick question, are exits on the Autobahn numbered? I usually only see a sign saying Ausfahrt, but no number next to it.


No, exits are not numbered on german motorways. There are junction numbers in place instead.


----------



## Danielk2

Unlike the US, germany has junction numbers. It means that in the US a large junction between 4-5 major routes could have numbers like 2A, 2B, 2C, 2D and so on, while germany would only have number 2 for the entire interchange


----------



## HAWC1506

909 said:


> A picture of the A1:


It seems like cats-eyes or some sort of raised plastic pavement markings were used on the right carriageway. I've never seen those used on Autobahns.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nah, I think those are leftovers from earlier temporary markings when there were roadworks.


----------



## Pansori

My most recent visit to Germany

A99 and A8 München - Salzburg

From about 0:55 you can see a train passing on a bridge above the autobahn 





More videos and a photo report coming soon.


----------



## Pansori

A8 a little further away from munich. Note, there ar no hard shoulders in some stretches. The average speed (unless limited) is still perhaps higher than on any other motorway


----------



## Pansori

Leaving Munich on A94


----------



## Vallex

Were you going from Munich to Salzburg or vice versa?
Once I was with my family to Paris and at the interchange A8 and A99 I saw quite a lot of old signs.


----------



## Pfosten

Vallex said:


> Were you going from Munich to Salzburg or vice versa?
> Once I was with my family to Paris and at the interchange A8 and A99 I saw quite a lot of old signs.


they' ve been replaced a few years ago, excepted the signs of the a995 from munich and a8 also from munich in direction of salzburg.
(sry i've got no pictures)


----------



## bleetz

I was driving in some of those videos  Yes, we were going from Munchen to Salzburg. We were surprised to see so lots of traffic on our way back! The autobahn was like a huge traffic jam, average speed was probably about 50 km/h (that was last Sunday night, about 6 PM CET). 

I was very impressed with "dynamic" signs on that autobahn. They looked like ordinary blue/white signs but they could turn and display different information when traffic intensity was high (autobahn would then switch from three lanes to four). I've never seen such signs before, they seemed like a very efficient way of controlling traffic.


----------



## thun

^^
It's strange on a Sunday night. Normally, on a sunday evening during winter, you'd expect traffic jams in direction of Munich because all the skiers go back home.


----------



## Pansori

Here is the video from last Sunday's evening on the A94 driving towards Munich. Not sure what exact location that is but perhaps about 60 or so km from Munich. It actually got worse at some stretches. Near Munich, however, all the traffic somehow vanished and we were cruising the streets all around the city without any constraints.


----------



## Rohne

The originals of the dynamic signs are located around Frankfurt (and they look much better organized than those copies around Munich  ). Some can be found in this gallery. They not only react on different number of useable lanes, they also switch the destinations if necessary.

Btw, nice music  What's the name of the track in the first vid you posted?


----------



## Pansori

Thanks, Rohne. Music in the first one is 'General Midi - On the Run'. Can be found here.


----------



## piotr71

Some pics showing new bit of A38. 
Do not get confused with the date on the pics, all were made 26.12.09


----------



## piotr71

Some more...


----------



## piotr71




----------



## piotr71

We approached the older part of that "autobahn".


----------



## Dantiscum

piotr71 said:


> Do not get confused with the date on the pics, all were made 26.12.*10*


R U sure? :lol:
nice pics BTW


----------



## piotr71

Oops, I made confused even myself  *26.12.2009* off course.


----------



## Stratocaster

The weather... Die Autobahn... The photos... Beautiful, great! Almost unreal.


----------



## Pansori

I hope noone will mind if I dump my report here

Map









Route: *München - Salzburg (A94, A99, A8)*

1.
Leaving Munich on A94. Asphalt condition is not perfect but more or less good









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That one would require a 4 km tunnel. It's not unthinkable that that tunnel will get built once other projects in this region are completed. But not in the next 10 - 15 years. 

The A5-A661 interchange is too far north to let these Autobahnen function as a beltway. 

However, one cannot oversee the amount of existing motorways in the Rhein-Main area is already pretty good, especially when you include the expressways built to motorway standards.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Check it out:


----------



## HD

909 said:


> Woo-hoo! Do you have more information about these projects?


there are three options for the widening of the A5 (one includes a division of the A5 into local and express lanes, another a crazy proposal of building a separate local expressway along the A5). I check if I can find the renderings that were published a while ago.

the entire A3 between wiesbaden and hanau will get a 2x4 lane upgrade (parts of the A3 are already 2x4 or 2x5 though).


the construction of the A66 between the A661 in the east and the A66 ending at the miquellallee in the west is not doable at the moment. there is a chance of a slim version with an A66 connector between the A661 and the central cemetery, but without the tunnel that would connect the western end of the A66 and the eastern end of the A66.


----------



## HD

there is a funny animation of the A661 and A66 projects in frankfurt (from the highway opponents):










explanation of the project (in german) - the widening of the A661 and the eastern part of the A66 is under construction. the western part of the A66 is proposed:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Weird that it has never been constructed with a record of decision taken in 1980...


----------



## HD

the plans go even further back than this. due to protests, complicated laws and rising costs it is not unusual to wait 40 years or more for a project to get built in germany. unfortunately.

as I said, the western phase of the extension is not very likely at the moment.


----------



## HD

I found the info on the A5 extension between nordwest kreuz (FN) and frankfurter kreuz (FK).

that's the situation today:


version 1:


version 2:


version 3:


source: autobahn-online


----------



## lambersart2005

where did you get those A5-renderings from HD? Are they from the generalverkehrsplanung? The last alternative with the parallel freeway seems ridiculous. What have they drunk when they figured out someting like that? ;-) 
Is there any specification when consturction should start? Frankly, I really doubt if the will ever realize that. Only if the Europaviertel is really booming such a solution should become considerable. But even then, less costly alternatives should be more reasonable. 
Concerning the current situation, no fundamental upgrades are needed in my opinion. Ok, during rush hour its really packed, but still bearable. Only thing they should improve is the exit Niederrad coming from the south. The backup is too long and shouldn't be necessary if they would just enlarge the exit a little bit (two exit lanes towards the Bürostadt at the singalized crossing). Shouldn't be too difficult :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A44 Dortmund - Kassel is closed between Erwitte/Anröchte and Diemelstadt due to black ice. This section is 52 kilometers long.


----------



## Patrick

lambersart2005 said:


> Concerning the current situation, no fundamental upgrades are needed in my opinion. Ok, during rush hour its really packed, but still bearable. Only thing they should improve is the exit Niederrad coming from the south. The backup is too long and shouldn't be necessary if they would just enlarge the exit a little bit (two exit lanes towards the Bürostadt at the singalized crossing). Shouldn't be too difficult :cheers:


Well, I think, Niederrad should also be acessible by coming from the north.


----------



## msz2

How many kilometers of motorway are under construction in Germany today?


----------



## ABRob

msz2 said:


> How many kilometers of motorway are under construction in Germany today?


ca. 160km
-> http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?2,132605

The big projects of A20, A38, A71, A73 are finished now and the future big projects A14, A20 rest, A22 (will renamed to A20 in Summer), A39, will start not untill a few years.


----------



## thun

A 44 between Dortmund and Kassel was closed on some 50km due to ice. :banana:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ABRob said:


> A22 (will renamed to A20 in Summer)


Really? That's interesting... A20 will maybe become the longest 2-digit Autobahn?


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Really? That's interesting... A20 will maybe become the longest 2-digit Autobahn?


It is already:
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?5,127481,132521#msg-132521 / http://autobahn.wikia.com/wiki/Länge_der_deutschen_Bundesautobahnen_(sortiert_nach_Länge)


----------



## mgk920

ABRob said:


> ca. 160km
> -> http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?2,132605
> 
> The big projects of A20, A38, A71, A73 are finished now and the future big projects A14, A20 rest, A22 (will renamed to A20 in Summer), A38, will start not untill a few years.


I thought that the A38 was complete, what section is yet to start?

Mike


----------



## mgk920

ABRob said:


> Sorry, I meant A39.


Thanx! I assume that it will be extended northward from Wolfsburg. Where will it be extended, too?

Mike


----------



## ABRob

mgk920 said:


> I thought that the A38 was complete, what section is yet to start?
> 
> Mike


Sorry, I meant A39.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ABRob said:


> It is already:
> http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?5,127481,132521#msg-132521 / http://autobahn.wikia.com/wiki/Länge_der_deutschen_Bundesautobahnen_(sortiert_nach_Länge)


Nice, I thought A61 was still a little longer... 

One project that's going too slow for my taste is the A33 between Osnabrück and Bielefeld. It currently runs to Borgholzhausen, where it ends on regional roads. An extension inside Bielefeld is currently under construction, but it will be another six years before the A33 is finally completed.


----------



## Patrick

time for some photos by me again, after some months I finally was able to take my parent's car to Frankfurt again (I can't see the slow train there anymore ) and this afternoon, some pictures from my way back home.









The serie will consist of several parts.

I'll begin with a few kilometers in Frankfurt-Bockenheim and Frankfurt-Hausen, continue on the A66, A5 and A45, and the rest will be some roads on the countryside (B255, B414, B413, L305).


----------



## Patrick

Part 1: Frankfurt-Bockenheim to Nordwestkreuz Frankfurt via Frankfurt-Hausen and A66.

001: We start in Bockenheim, a city quarter in the western part of Frankfurt and follow this 4-lane-road until we reach the A66.









002: 









003:









004: The full name of the exit of the A66 which we interchange is "Frankfurt am Main-Ludwig-Landmann-Straße".









005: It's a cloverleaf interchange.









006: We're on the A66 now. To turn back, just exit here.









007: Nordwestkreuz Frankfurt interchanges the local A66 and the transnational A5.









To be continued


----------



## Pansori

^^
Looks good. Can't wait to see more kay:


----------



## Patrick

Ok, let's head on the A5 northbound. You will notice, that I like to zoom the pics, although they might get blurred 

Part 2: A5 Nordwestkreuz Frankfurt - Gambacher Kreuz.

008: The grey sign on the right turns on if there's too much traffic. It will allow you to use the emergency lane as a fourth driving lane.









009: The backside of the signs are often graffittied.









010: Bad Homburger Kreuz. The local A661 crosses the A5 here. You usually drive from Frankfurt to Köln via the A3 and not the A5/A45/A4, that's why Köln was not originally signed here.









011: We're touching the very east of the hilly Taunus range here.









012: The truck on the right says: "Without me, the Autobahn would be nicely empty. Just as your refridgerator."









013: Exit Friedberg.









014: Distance sign after Friedberg. To see where we actually are.









015: Patchwork on the middle lane. Wetterau is the name of the rather flat region we pass by.









016: After we leave the wooden Taunus range behind us, we can finally see the snow which is still left.









017: Annouce of the exit Ober-Mörlen.









018: Ober-Mörlen.









019: Exit Bad Nauheim (that's where Elvis Presley served for the US Army from 1958-60)









020: Exit Butzbach. Butzbach is known for having a nice old town. If you are interested to see how Butzbach looks like, just visit my photo thread in the Urban Showcase about it 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=984756









021: In the background, you see the village of Gambach.









022: Gambacher Kreuz, the A45 crosses the A5 here. I'll leave the A5 now.









To be continued.


----------



## Patrick

Part 3: A45 from Gambacher Kreuz to Herborn-West.

023: We're on the A45 now.









024: This autobahn is mostly 2+2 or 2+3 on hills.









025: Gießener Südkreuz. The crossing A485 is a pretty short Autobahn and functions as a bypass for the city of Gießen.









026: Another distance sign.









027: Quite some traffic now. Here exit Gießen-Lützellinden.









028: Some random bridge.









029: Exit Wetzlar-Süd. Btw: In the late 70s, the cities of Gießen and Wetzlar have been unified to a new city called "Lahn", named after the river flowing thru both cities. This new city had more than 150,000 inhabitants. BUT: The city centers of Wetzlar and Gießen are more than 20 km away from wach other, so, 2 years later, both cites became their own independent cities again. 









030: Exit Wetzlar-Ost. The B49 between Limburg and Gießen is a pretty important connection between Rhineland-Palatinate and Eastern Germany. In long term this stretch of the B49 connecting the A3 and A45 will be completley 2+2, as far as I know.









031: Btw, I also have a photo thread about the pretty old town of Limburg here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=861610 









032: We're getting closer to Westphalia and the Ruhr-Area. Siegen already belongs to southern Westphalia.









033: Finally, a third lane again. We're leaving the Lahn valley now and go up to the hills of the Westerwald and Lahn-Dill-Bergland. In the background, you see the annouce of the Wetzlarer Kreuz, which is the very only 4-level-stack-interchange in Germany. Although that interchange is rather unimportant and a relict of abandonned plannings.









034: Another bridge.









035: If former plannings would have been realised, we would see A48 and destinations like Koblenz, Gießen, Marburg, Erfurt here instead of and Bischoffen or Hohenahr. And I've just noticed: The very short A480 is even not signed here.









036: 2 lanes again.









037: Ad 2010 for driving at reasonable speeds. The design of these ads change every year.









038: Exit Ehringshausen.









039: Hill.









040: Exit Herborn-Süd. Oh, and we're having 3 lanes again.









041: Touristic sign for Herborn. If you'd like to see, why they have it, visit my Herborn-photo thread 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=896446









042: Exit Herborn-West. I'm reaching my home region, the Westerwald, now. Btw: It's named Westerwald because it's west of Herborn.









To be countinued. On federal roads. No autobahn part left.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to the Autobahn Atlas and my own observations, significant portions of A45 between Dortmund and Herborn have 2+3 lanes. Are there plans to widen this section to 2x3 lanes continuously? Traffic (Verkehrsaufkommen) on A45 is pretty high until the Gambacher Kreuz, especially trucks, so 3 lanes would be much more comfortable.


----------



## piotr71

Nice trip kay: Nicely picturized 

I remember Giessen very well. Several years ago I was kind of lost over there. I followed E40 European road from Koln trying to reach Polish border. 
Suddenly, just by Giessen, international numbering disappeared. I probably turned to a national road leading to Erfurt or something. Anyway, it was not A45/ E40 anymore. I was drifting for some longer time around Giessen, eventually finding myself somwhere on A5.


----------



## Patrick

thx  and now after you said it...there is no relation at the gambacher kreuz coming from siegen driving to erfurt/poland. so you had to drive via A485 at Gießener Südkreuz all the way to Gießener Nordkreuz, change to A480, and finally change to A5 at Dreieck Reiskrichen east of Gießen. Or even earlier, at Wetzlar-Ost, change to B49 and later near Gießen change to 485...GoogleMapsLink

So, let's continue with part 4, also the biggest and last part.

Part 4: B255 from Herborn to Driedorf-Hohenroth, B414 from Hohenroith to Hachenburg, B413 from Hachenburg to Herschbach and finally L305 from Herschbach to Selters, where my camera ran out of energy on the last kilometers 

043: Leaving the A45 at AS Herborn-West.









044: Let's turn right and enter the Westerwald 









045: The B255 between Herborn and Driedorf-Hohenroth is 2+1 at large parts.









046: We won't pass thru any village on the B255 on this stretch, they are all bypassed.









047: Other parts of this road have two very wide single lanes.









048: transition from 1+1 to 2+1









049: the hill in the background is the Höllberg, 643m. It's the highest point of the hessian part of the Westerwald.









050: reaching a roundabout near Driedorf.









051: the roundabout.









052: junction to the Höllkopf.









053: unfortunately, the show is melting. i like snow 









054: there are quite lots of wind turbines here.









055: this is one "major" junction. the B414 begins here, main direction to Köln via Altenkirchen. The B255 leads to Koblenz via Montabaur in the end.









056: we're on the B414 now. I was really lucky with the blue sky after lots of cloudy days before.









057: who needs a crashbarrier if you have a snow barrier? 









058: the Fuchskaute is the highest hill in the Westerwald. 654m. Strange: On previous signs, Bad Marienberg (5,700 inh) and Altenkirchen (6,000 inh) were signed. Both disappeared, now Hachenburg (5,700 inh) is on the sign.









059: Rolling down to Nister-Möhrendorf (331 inh).









060: another "major" junction. B54 connects Limburg (34,000 inh) and Siegen (104,000 inh) and A3/A45 on an north/south axis.









061: more wind turbines.









062: and another wind turbine.









063: Hof (1,200 inh).









064: What the...?









065: junction to Bad Marienberg.









066: rolling thru Kirburg (600 inh)









067: between Kirburg and Hachenburg, there are some 2+1 stretches again.









068: the road follows an embankment.









069: 1+1 again.









070: we're now bypassing the town of Hachenburg, which is to the left behind the hill. Btw: I have also a picture about the old town of Hachenburg here  http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=969674









071: the road to Betzdorf (10,000) is also mostly 2+1, although it's just a Landesstraße and not a Bundesstraße. 









072: time for me to leave the B414 and head to Koblenz on the B413.









073: so, we're on the B413 now. In the background you can see the barock palace of Hachenburg.









074: but I won't enter the town as this road is also bypassing it.









075: heading home.









076: the B413 has not many bypasses, we're finally riding thru the villages  here: Merkelbach (422 inh).









077: Wied (497 inh).









078: Höchstenbach (690 inh). There is another "major" crossing. Here as a TOTSO. no matter from which direction you come, you always have to change the road if you want to stay on the road number. The B8 runs parallel to the A3 all the way from the durch to the austrian border.









079: I'll follow the B413 and will go left in the background.









080: Mündersbach (745 inh).









081: Bypassing Herschbach (3000 inh). I grew up there, that village is what I consider to be my home.









082: I have to change the road again. From B413 to L305. L-roads are usually not numbered on the signs.









083: The L305 is also bypassing Herschbach.









084: In fact, this roads bypasses every village until it reaches Mogendorf and the A3 (exit Ransbach-Baumbach).









That's it. My camera ran out of energy. I hope you enjoyed watching them, although 2-lane-roads might be rather uninteresting compared to Autobahns


----------



## Tramfreak

This week I used the German highways A61, A6, A81 and A8 twice to get from Venlo to Stuttgart and back. There were no traffic jams (only some very bad and dangerous driving on the way back). But I was surprised by the stupid sound barriers which they made at the A6 around Sinsheim. You cannot see the wonderful museum with its airplanes anymore, which was one of the very few interesting things to be seen around the highway! And what does the wall protect? An industrial zone, yes, there are no houses behind it! Can anyone explain this useless measure, which even eliminates one very important way for the museum to advertise itself?


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## ChrisZwolle

What's the current status of A6 between Walldorf and Weinsberg? Last time I was there, there was a huge Baustelle with lots of traffic jams. Is this section 2x3 already?


----------



## piotr71

Tramfreak said:


> But I was surprised by the stupid sound barriers which they made at the A6 around Sinsheim. You cannot see the wonderful museum with its airplanes anymore, which was one of the very few interesting things to be seen around the highway!


That is right. Though, one huge passenger plane could still had been seen in the gap between barriers, while ago. At least in July last year. Have they blocked all view now?


----------



## Tramfreak

ChrisZwolle said:


> What's the current status of A6 between Walldorf and Weinsberg? Last time I was there, there was a huge Baustelle with lots of traffic jams. Is this section 2x3 already?


There wasn't any Baustelle there anymore as far as I know, and that whole section seemed to be 2x3. The only construction works I saw were somewhere on the A61. Wikipedia says that some parts of the section are 2x3 even though the width of the highway is actually too small for this configuration. 

^^ You could see something when approaching the museum, but there was no gap between the barriers anymore.


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## ChrisZwolle

Severel road widening projects will be completed during the next few months in the *Ruhr area*:

*A1 Wuppertal - Köln*
Several sections of A1 between Wuppertal and Köln will be widened to 2x3 lanes. This will mean most of the A1 will be 2x3 through the Rhein-Ruhr area by 2010. The section near Hagen has been completed on december 23rd, 2009. This means A1 will be 2x3 for at least 100 kilometer.









*A2 Dortmund - Hamm*
The last remaining 2x2 section between the Kamener Kreuz (A1) and Hamm will be widened to 2x3 in 2010. Then all of the A2 will be continuously 2x3 for 486 kilometers.









*A40 Essen - Bochum*
The parking lot called A40 or Ruhrschnellweg will see a completion of the widening to 2x3 in early 2010. It consists of the section between Gelsenkirchen-Süd and Bochum-Stahlhausen. I expect the A44 to be running concurrent here in the future.









*A59 Duisburg*
This major bottleneck near downtown Duisburg will be widened to 2x3 lanes until mid-2010. It mainly provides a commuter link, as through traffic uses the parallel A3.


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Severel road widening projects will be completed during the next few months in the *Ruhr area*:
> 
> *A1 Wuppertal - Köln*
> Several sections of A1 between Wuppertal and Köln will be widened to 2x3 lanes. This will mean most of the A1 will be 2x3 through the Rhein-Ruhr area by 2010. The section near Hagen has been completed on december 23rd, 2009. This means A1 will be 2x3 for at least 100 kilometer.


There are 2 sections missing - around Wuppertal and between Remscheid and Wermelskirchen. Both should be finished in 2011.
Link
Information



ChrisZwolle said:


> *A40 Essen - Bochum*
> The parking lot called A40 or Ruhrschnellweg will see a completion of the widening to 2x3 in early 2010. It consists of the section between Gelsenkirchen-Süd and Bochum-Stahlhausen. I expect the A44 to be running concurrent here in the future.


This section is divided into 4 parts:
- around exit 'Gelseinkirchen-Süd': finished end 2010
- Part A (1.86km): finished in January; but it will be 2x2 until the Part around exit 'Gelseinkirchen-Süd' is done
- Part B (1.78km): until May 2012
- Part C: arund exit 'Bochum-Stahlhausen': until End 2012
Link
Information
The A44 will have this route in the future. The former B227 arund Essen-Kupferdreh is A44 since the beginning of this year.



ChrisZwolle said:


> *A59 Duisburg*
> This major bottleneck near downtown Duisburg will be widened to 2x3 lanes until mid-2010. It mainly provides a commuter link, as through traffic uses the parallel A3.


It'd divided in 2 parts:
The sothern part will be done this year, the northern part with a new 300m tunnel in front of the Central station will be widened until end 2012.
Link
Information


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ABRob said:


> The A44 will have this route in the future. The former B227 arund Essen-Kupferdreh is A44 since the beginning of this year.


Did they change the signs already? I was there in may 2009, and took the following pics:


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Did they change the signs already?


No, it will be done sometime in summer.


----------



## HAWC1506

Just a general question for you Europeans. How do you know which side of the road to drive on when there's a 2x1 with dashed white lines down the middle?


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## thun

Erm, we simply drive on the side which you have to. :nuts: Apparently Americans can't figure out whether they have to stay left or right. 

Seriously: the dashed line means that you're allowed to overtake on 2x1 roads (but you have to pay attention to the oncoming traffic, obviously). A continuous line means that you're not allowed to overtake.
On roads with more than one lane per direction you have to use the right and are only allowed to go to the left when overtaking. At least in theory.


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## ChrisZwolle

I understand the question. 

Take a look at this;


















(US 82 in Texas, by OKroads)

You can barely or not see the other carriageway, but the yellow marking shows you this is a 2x2 road. Grassy medians are much more common and guard rails are not as frequent as in Europe.


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## keber

HAWC1506 said:


> Just a general question for you Europeans. How do you know which side of the road to drive on when there's a 2x1 with dashed white lines down the middle?


"Stay right except to pass" is a general rule everywhere in Europe.


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

> I understand the question.


I don't.
I can understand that in some cases it may be hard to tell the road layout from the single still image, but when you drive you should remember what type of road you've entered. Anyone having problems telling the 2x2 from 2x1 apart shouldn't be allowed to drive in the first place...



> "Stay right except to pass" is a general rule everywhere in Europe.


Uhm,







, yeah.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B10 Hinterweidenthal - Pirmasens*

The B10 is an "Autobahnähnliche Straße" (literally; motorway-like road) or Expressway in southwestern Germany. Some parts of it are still under construction.

These pictures were taken during early morning on a Saturday.

map:









1.









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.









7.









8.









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.









15.









16.









17.









18.









19.









20.









21.









22.









23.









24.









25.









26.









27.









28.









29.









30.









31.









32.









33.









34.









35.









36.









37.


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## mgk920

What's the likelihood, if any, of this becoming a 'completion' of the A8?

Mike


----------



## DSzumaher




----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Why don't you speed them up a bit? I usually speed motorway videos up 4 times, sometimes more if it's a long distance (for example I shortened a 1 hour footage of A8 Pirmasens - Luxembourg) to 9 minutes). In my opinion, it's more interesting to watch them at a higher speed, especially when the surroundings are almost completely rural.


----------



## DSzumaher

Then the footage would be without sound. IMO video without sound is like single carriageway expressway, which is good, but something is missing. And the music is not an option due to the copyrights (I have the same problems with them.) If had to leave the original sound, it would sound strange at least.
Additionally, the accelerated film, slightly see one of my favorite issues, or signage.

PS Yes I thought it will be a "dawdler".


----------



## INTER88

Wie lange ist das deutsche Autobahnnetz?


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## nerdly_dood

A lot of those pix of German autobahns - the ones without excessive amounts of exposed concrete - look a lot like highways in western Virginia. The highway construction is a bit different, though - we typically use dirt embankments where German highways use concrete.


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## ChrisZwolle

INTER88 said:


> Wie lange ist das deutsche Autobahnnetz?


The Autobahn-network is 12.912 kilometers long. There is also an additional 2.300 kilometer Autobahnähnlich (motorway-like) worth of roads, which brings the total of the motorway(like) roads to 15.212 kilometers. 

Which would make it longer than the Spanish Autovía/Autopista network, which is at 14.689 kilometers, a difference of 523 kilometers. However, the Spaniards are still building at a much faster pace than Germany. Especially when some new motorways in Spain (A-8, A-38, AP-69, A-22 etc) and the next generation of regional Autovías are completed, the Spanish network would most likely be longer.


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## ChrisZwolle

mgk920 said:


> What's the likelihood, if any, of this becoming a 'completion' of the A8?


I've been reading on the German wikipedia, and it seems portions of the B10 will be widened to an Autobahnähnliche Straße (motorway-like road). However, the main issue is the Kreis Südliche Weinstraße (Southern Wine-route district) where a 2x2 construction remains unlikely. The bypass of Annweiler am Trifels has several tunnels that have outdated security systems and must be renovated. 

On the other hand, A8 west of Pirmasens is relatively unimportant, and mainly serves regional traffic. International east-west traffic from Paris to München can either use the German A6, or French A4/A35, the latter being the shortest, and is only about 15 kilometers longer than the route via B10. 

Although it looks like a missing link on a map of Germany, I think there are more important missing links to be fixed, starting with A1 between Blankenheim and Daun.


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## thun

No-one in Germany needs a high-class connection to the Saarland anyway.


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## ChrisZwolle

Last week works have begun to build a full-size interchange Bochum-West. This will connect the ring road of Bochum directly to Autobahn A40, which is currently being widened to six lanes west of Bochum.

Begin: April 29th, 2010
Completion: July 2011. 

current situation:









future interchange:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

April 26th, 2010, saw the beginning of the construction of Autobahn A44 between Ratingen and Velbert in the Ruhr metropolis. This Autobahn will mainly serve regional traffic. It will be completed in 2015.


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## panda80

^^5 years? Why so much?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ It's quite hilly terrain, they require several bridges:

* Brücke Kaltenbach (129 Meter)
* Brücke Homberger Bachtal (216 Meter),
* Brücke Angerbach (391 Meter)
* Brücke Laubecker Bachtal (206 Meter)
* Brücke Ganslandsiepen (194 Meter).

Plus construction speed is generally slow in western Europe.


----------



## Timon91

Has the B54 near Steinfurt opened yet? I thought it was to be opened today (technically yesterday )?


----------



## ABRob

*A30*

Some new pictures from the A30 construction around Bad Oeynhausen:










An aerial image from the newspaper:











And I've made a trip on the 1st of May:
http://picasaweb.google.de/BABRob/A3001052010


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## ABRob

Timon91 said:


> Has the B54 near Steinfurt opened yet? I thought it was to be opened today (technically yesterday )?


Yes, it was opened yesterday:
http://strassen.nrw.de/service/presse/meldungen/2010/100505-01.html


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## pmaciej7

ChrisZwolle said:


> * Brücke Angerbach (391 Meter)


391 m high or 391 m long?


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## Feryuc

Billpa said:


> I envy the German motorist. The Autobahn system is about as close to perfect as it gets.


I agree! the german autobahn is one of the most sophisticated highway system in the WORLD!


i think its 391 m long...


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## Alqaszar

All the distances measure lengths, the terrain is hilly, but not really a mountain area.


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## Tom 958

ChrisZwolle said:


> future interchange:


It's odd that a westbound connection from the ringroad to L633 is provided but its eastbound counterpart isn't, unless it's somewhere off the map.


----------



## Pansori

Sorry for a silly question but what is the speed limit in the "Autobahnähnliche Straße"? Is it the regular 100km/h or something else?


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## ChrisZwolle

No speed limit unless otherwise posted.


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## thun

Yep. That's true for all German roads with physically separated carriageways.


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## ChrisZwolle

Most of those Autobahnähnliche Straßen usually do have some posted limit between 100 and 130 km/h. I think the number of Autobahnähnliche Straßen without speed limits is quite limited.


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## 3naranze

if I remember correctly, there was a post that spoke of a highway dismantled to continue to dig coal.
does anyone remember? I can not find it. thanks


----------



## da_scotty

I believe you're talking about the A61 in the futere, and the A44 near jackerath (I believe) which is currently dug up


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## Timon91

That's right. They've already dismantled the A44 near Jackerath. In Google Earth you can find some pretty good pics of this. It looks very weird IMO. AFAIK the A61 won't be dismantled until 2017, but I'm not sure about it. Am I right that they're going to rebuild the A44 when they're starting on the A61? I wonder how they're going to do that. Build a bridge across the mine?


----------



## 3naranze

you're right, thanks.
I found it in _Tagebau Garzweiler-Verkehr_ in Wikipedia-de


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## ChrisZwolle

Also A4 between Düren and Kreuz Kerpen. It will be eaten away by Tagebau Hambach.


----------



## pmaciej7

Some pictures:

A4: Railway bridge in Chemnitz
A72: Göltzschbrücke
B2 Roth - Nürnberg: 1, 2, 3
A9: Talbrücke Schnaittach, Talbrücke Lanzendorf


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## 909

Timon91 said:


> I wonder how they're going to do that. Build a bridge across the mine?


No, after mining the land will be rehabilitated and restored. In the picture below you can see an example of restored land at the Garzweiler area:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Kreuz Münster-Süd*

Kreuz Münster-Süd, is, as indicated by it's name, an interchange at the southern side of the city of Münster, population 274,000. 

This interchange was completed in 1973 as a cloverleaf. Between 2003 and 2005 a direct fly-over was built to accommodate traffic from Recklinghausen towards Osnabrück. This reduced congestion at this interchange. Meanwhile, A1 was widened from here to Münster-Nord to six lanes. 

Google Earth:









Some pictures of this interchange:

A1 southbound, on the collector lane towards B51.


Entering B51 into Münster.


Terminus of B51, where A43 begins towards Recklinghausen.


The remaining pictures are from A43 towards A1 north to Osnabrück:


----------



## HD

some highway in germany 



source: flickr


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## 909

Wow, that's a great pic!


----------



## SuperSergei

Very nice photo!
Every time I`m on the A5 near F.am main i hope for a pic like that, this is the closest I have been.


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## SuperSergei

Rasthof Gräfenhausen at A5 is a nice place to stop if you want to spot planes and highspeed autobahntraffic.


----------



## hofburg

HD said:


> some highway in germany
> http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9035/59473799.jpg


uf!! that picture is what Germany is all about.


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## Dr.Mabuse

nato exercies Highway 84 :lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

It's busy in Northern Germany:



> A7 Hannover - Hamburg
> Zwischen AS Berkhof und AS Soltau-Ost in beiden Richtungen 50 km stockender Verkehr


50 km traffic jam in both directions. But:



> Zwischen AS Großburgwedel und AS Berkhof 16 km stockender Verkehr


That means the northbound traffic jams is 66 kilometers long.


----------



## Danielk2

What on earth could cause such a massive traffic jam??


----------



## Timon91

Probably the holiday weekend (Pentecost)


----------



## Dr.Mabuse

Yeah, interesstingly, Accidnets play only a smale role in resulting a traffic jam.
25 %


----------



## thun

Keep in mind that "stockender Verkehr" isn't jam. Its traffic that rolls (!) but will stop for several seconds or a few minutes regularly.


----------



## Dr.Mabuse

thun said:


> Keep in mind that "stockender Verkehr" isn't jam. Its traffic that rolls (!) but will stop for several seconds or a few minutes regularly.


true 0-10 km/h stau, 10 km/h - 30 km/h stockender verkehr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Either way, 60 km of stop-and-go traffic will cost you like 2 - 3 hours at least.


----------



## thun

So what? you're on holidays, so you have the time. 
I've heard of worse jams...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think people want to spend time in a traffic jam. I wouldn't. That's why I plan my vacations outside the peak summer season.


----------



## Danielk2

Dr.Mabuse said:


>


Kinda predictible that road works cause 30% of traffic jams. 
How do they manage to make such horrible road works around the year??

And what is "Other"??


----------



## Danielk2

thun said:


> So what? you're on holidays, so you have the time.
> I've heard of worse jams...


That's how you wanna spend you vacation. In a freaking traffic jam?? :wtf:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Germany has a lot of infrastructure that is nearing the end of it's lifespan. A lot of infrastructure (bridges, overpasses, motorways etc.) was built prior to the 1970's and is now well over 40 years old, in some cases even pre-war infrastructure that is up to 75 years old. That is why Germany has an excessive amount of roadworks going on. 

The treshold for road-work related traffic jams in the Netherlands is only 5% compared to 30% in Germany. That said, the low road-work related traffic jams in the Netherlands is mostly due to the excessive saturation of our motorways. Over 50%* of the Dutch motorway-network is congested during some point of the day, I take it this number is significantly lower in Germany.

* not 50% at one moment of course, but during the day. We have a lot of "walking traffic jams" that run upstream during rush hour. That way the traffic jam is typically 7 km long, but runs through a 40km section of motorway.


----------



## Rohne

Just wait for the summer. Traffic jams on A3 Frankfurt-Nürnberg regularly reach 100km...


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## Dr.Mabuse

LOL; who is such freak to spend 145$ for that?:nuts:
http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/what+is+new/german+made+no+speed+limit+autobahn+sign.do


----------



## I-275westcoastfl

You'll be surprised that is actually how much the tax payers pay for the sign. I remember a story on stop signs here in the US they cost like $180 each.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah, signage for two or three exits could be well over 1 million.


----------



## HAWC1506

Well if you think about the reflective materials used in the sign, I guess it's quite reasonable. Although, I would've assumed that economies of scale can bring the price down even further. I guess not :lol:


----------



## Dr.Mabuse

I don't mean costs for offical use on autobahns. i mean who would buy this for privat to hang it on his walls or in room...:lol:


----------



## Matz32Z

Ekspressway .B11a





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYywxkDcd0


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A38 Göttingen - Halle - Leipzig*

I present a photoset from Germany's newest east-west axis. The A38 Autobahn was one of several road projects to connect the "new states" in the east with western Germany. A38 connects Göttingen with Nordhausen, Halle and Leipzig, the latter being the largest city. It also represents an international connection from the Ruhr area to northern Czechia and southern Poland, indeed, it is the fastest route from Dortmund/Kassel to Dresden, shaving off approximately 40 km from the old-school route via A4. 

Although A38 has it's share of traffic, it is not very busy, as there aren't many large towns between Kassel and Leipzig. Halle is close to Leipzig, and Göttingen is close to Kassel, in between is only Nordhausen, which is a small city. 

The A38 is 219 kilometers long.

Route:









I pasted the most important pictures below. You can watch the full 152 picture set on Flickr

Terminology;

Kreuz = 4-way interchange
Dreieck = 3-way interchage
Süd = South
Nord = North
Ost = East
West = West

1. First exit directly on the connector lane of Dreieck Drammetal.


2. Control cities: Leipzig, Halle, Nordhausen


3. 


4. Distances


5. Friedland.


6. Heidkopftunnel: cat. E 


7. Südharz


8. Heidkopftunnel.


9. Land Thüringen.


10. Arenshausen


11. 


12. 


13.


14. 110 km/h, rare


15. 


16. Leinefelde-Worbis.


17. 


18. Breitenworbis.


19. 


20. 


21. 


22. 


23. 


24. 


25. Werther


26. Nordhausen


27. Heringen


28. 


29. 


30. The Kyffhäuser Mountains


31. Berga


32. Roßla


33. Sangerhausen-West


34. 


35. Sangerhausen-Süd


36. A71 under construction (from Erfurt)


37. Allstedt


38. Landscape becomes flatter.


39. Eisleben.


40. Magdeburg via A143 


41. Querfurt


42. Schafstadt.


43. Dreieck Halle-Süd.


44. 


45. Bad Lauchstädt.


46. Merseburg-Nord.


47. Merseburg-Süd.


48. City of Industry


49. Leuna


50. 


51. Kreuz Rippachtal. I believe this is the oldest section of A38


52. 


53. Lützen.


54. 


55. Freistaat Sachsen (Free State Saxony)


56. Leipzig-Südwest


57. 


58. Leipzig-Neue Harth


59. Leipzig-Süd (will be Kreuz Leipzig-Süd with A72 in the future)


60. Görlitz


61. A "bagger".


62. Leipzig-Südost


63. 


64. Dreieck Parthenaue


65. End of A38.


----------



## 909

Great pictures, love the Bagger next to the Autobahn.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A52 Kreuz Düsseldorf-Nord - Dreieck Essen-Ost*

This short set follows Autobahn A52 from Düsseldorf to Essen, in a northeast direction. It mainly serves the southern side of the city of Essen. 

route:









1. 


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9.


10.


11.


12.


13.


14.


15.


16.


----------



## Pansori

Excellent. It may well be that I'll be driving on some of those roads soon so it helps to get familiar.


----------



## rarse

Great photos Chris. Thank you.

Is there a plan soon to build A44 between Ratingen and Velbert South? And later in Essen to connect it to A52?

Also, when could A52 be finished trough the city of Essen all the way to the north?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A44 is currently under construction between Kreuz Ratingen-Ost and Velbert and will be opened in 2015. It will feature at least 5 major bridges across valleys. 

A44 already continues as B227 from Velbert into Essen, but a connection to A52 seems unlikely. There are also no plans to construct A44 from Velbert to Bochum, but there are plans to funnel east-west traffic down to A40 and a reconstruction of the Bochum loop, so traffic from Düsseldorf to Dortmund is streamlined across this route. 

The widening of A40 to six lanes is currently executed, and to be completed in March 2012. An interchange (Dreieck Bochum-West) is also under construction. I'll show pictures of it in the next post.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pictures of A40 between Essen and Bochum.

1. Vanaf de A52 de A40 oprijdend. De A52 versmalt hier ook van 3 naar 1 over 2 kilometer ofzo, maar is niet bijzonder druk.


2. En flitspalen staan er inderdaad. (bij een station in de middenberm)


3. Essen-Frillendorf.


4. Opvallend, links 100 km/uur.


5. Essen-Kray.


6. Stau.


7. In de file. Het versmalt hier van 3 naar 2.


8. Een tijdelijke rechtdoorpijl op het afslagbord.


9. Dat duurt nog effe.


10. En van 2 naar 1.


11. Bochum-Wattenscheid-West


12. Opvallend: Dreieck Bochum-West. Dit is nieuw.


13. Bochum-Wattenscheid.


14. Verbreding van de A40.


15. Bochum-Stahlhausen. Het staat slecht aangegeven dat dit de Autobahnähnliche zuidring van Bochum is. Dat moet je maar net weten (waarschijnlijk om verkeer richting Witten en Wuppertal over de A40 en A43 te geleiden).


16. Bouw van de nieuwe fly-over. Let op het forse hoogteverschil.


----------



## rarse

OK thanks for all that info.

I believe I saw once there is a whole anti-A52 group which doesn't want A52 to built trough Essen.

So I guess A52 trough Essen will be very very long project.

P.S.: I was driving on A40 2-3 years ago trough Essen and there were no works back then. Anyway there seems very very narrow in Essen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

About A52 through Essen:

http://strassen.nrw.de/projekte/lueckenschluesse.html


> Autobahnkreuz Essen-Ost (A40) bis Autobahnkreuz Essen-Nord (A42)
> Länge: 7,1 Kilometer
> Kosten: 385,7 Millionen Euro
> Stand: im Vorentwurf
> geplante Fertigstellung: 2023


So, this section is 7.1 km long, costs € 385.7 million, is in pre-design stages and will be completed in 2023.


----------



## rarse

Chris, thank you!

From this picture-plan it looks like the southern part would not be needed for much tunnels but the norhern part defenitely will.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think some homes near Essen-Frillendorf would have to be removed, since a bridge across that big railroad yard is needed. North of that, there is some right-of-way, it seems, but it would definitely require some removing of homes and businesses. A tunnel seems to be the most logical option for the northernmost section in Essen-Altenessen. A surface Autobahn would require massive demolition of buildings.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That also brings us to Autobahn A44 extension to A52, otherwise there would not be a continuous Autobahn to Bochum. A44 currently ends near Essen-Heisingen, south of the city. (this was previously B227). 

An extension northbound would require a long tunnel, but worse, there is no space for an interchange near Essen-Bergerhausen, as A52 is already within tight quarters there. (it runs depressed, below grade there)

There is more space near Essen-Rüttenscheid. It would require a tunnel under Essen-Rellinghausen, and demolition of several homes and buildings for an interchange with A52. 

Importantly, A52 already has six lanes from this point to the future Kreuz Essen-Ost, to combine A52 and A44 traffic.


----------



## CNGL

^^ Apart from those autobahnen, I would like to see a complete A99 around Munich.
And I like that autobahnen have no speed limit, so people can go as fast as they want. Thinking more, there's really a speed limit on autobahnen: The light speed, since you can't go faster than light :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's also interesting to note the construction of A44 in Bochum has received it's final go-ahead, as all appeals against the construction have been annulled by the court in Leipzig.

The demolition of buildings will start in the end of 2010, while actual construction of A44 is due to begin in late 2011.

A44 will be constructed south of the Opel factory, and includes a new interchange with the existing Bochum Loop. Meanwhile, the connection of the Bochum Loop with Autobahn A40 west of the city is also being improved.









What is left is the upgrade of the Loop itself. It lacks shoulders, but is 2x2 and grade-separated.


----------



## fetg_

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think some homes near Essen-Frillendorf would have to be removed, since a bridge across that big railroad yard is needed. North of that, there is some right-of-way, it seems, but it would definitely require some removing of homes and businesses. A tunnel seems to be the most logical option for the northernmost section in Essen-Altenessen. A surface Autobahn would require massive demolition of buildings.


What's the current price on real estate close to that suggested route? How would this route affect this in such dense region?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The population of Essen has been declining for decades. It has reached a peak of 731.000 inhabitants in 1962, to 580.000 in 2009, so my guess is real estate is not too pricey in this area.


----------



## fetg_

ChrisZwolle said:


> my guess is real estate is not too pricey in this area.


But it could get higher if they build this stretch. Low real estate price, then highway and higher price. High real estate price, then a nearby highway on groundlevel might decrease the price.

Anyway, lets remove the houses then and build it on the ground.


----------



## mgk920

I was just about to ask about the status of the A44 by the Opal plant when I scrolled down to your post on it!

:nuts: :lol:

Anyways, I can't help but notice that the Rhine-Rhur area is chocked full of annoying loose ends and ghost interchanges and that it appears that some of them, at least, will be taken care of.

A few others that come to my mind:

-Howabout the other end of that part of the A44, this the ghost end at the A45, any current plans for that?

-Also, the A40-44 street section in Dortmund?

-One of the more interesting roads that appear to have greater aspirations in that area is the A524. What are/were the ultimate plans for that one? Prognosis?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

mgk920 said:


> -Howabout the other end of that part of the A44, this the ghost end at the A45, any current plans for that?


As far as I know, there are no plans to connect both A44's west and east of Dortmund. There is, however, a reasonable alternate route in A45 and A1, which are both six-lane Autobahns.



> -Also, the A40-44 street section in Dortmund?


This will be reconstructed into a free-flowing route. The western approach is already under construction, including a new viaduct. There are plans for a tunnel under B1 near central Dortmund. The record of decision has been judged legal by the court of Münster. 



> -One of the more interesting roads that appear to have greater aspirations in that area is the A524. What are/were the ultimate plans for that one? Prognosis?


There were plans for an Autobahn A54, which would've ran from the Dutch border near Brunssum to Plettenberg. Only current A542 and L141n in Solingen were constructed. I took pictures of L141n last year, check here

However, there are still plans to extend A542 west across the Rhine river to A57, but it is currently deemed to expensive.


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> There were plans for an Autobahn A54, which would've ran from the Dutch border near Brunssum to Plettenberg. Only current A542 and L141n in Solingen were constructed. I took pictures of L141n last year, check here
> 
> However, there are still plans to extend A542 west across the Rhine river to A57, but it is currently deemed to expensive.


I was thinking of the A524, not the A542:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.351415,6.809292&spn=0.062396,0.175781&z=13

(There is also a segment just to the west of that image)

Also, the A59 in that area.

:yes:

Mike


----------



## shipmand56

*Taking photos on the move*

I am curious as to how people fix their cameras to take a shot on the move. I am thinking of some kind of fixing for the camera above eye level (perhaps near the rear view mirror) whereby I could see the screen and press a remote button on or near the steering wheel. Also powering it from the car would be good. Anyone with any pics of how they have done it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I never did that. I just shoot from the hand, even with manual gears, there's usually no problem with shifting, because you can drive in 5th on most Autobahns. If you do have to gear down / up, I just put the camera on my leg. I don't do city photographing though. 

As with the powering from the car, I have an AC/DC converter in my car so I can use 230 V powered applications as well. It generates about 80 Watts, which is enough for mobile phones, laptops, video cameras, chargers, etc. I wouldn't recommend to put a water boiler or a microwave on it though


----------



## JuanPaulo

ChrisZwolle said:


> I never did that. I just shoot from the hand, even with manual gears, there's usually no problem with shifting, because you can drive in 5th on most Autobahns. If you do have to gear down / up, I just put the camera on my leg. I don't do city photographing though.
> 
> As with the powering from the car, I have an AC/DC converter in my car so I can use 230 V powered applications as well. It generates about 80 Watts, which is enough for mobile phones, laptops, video cameras, chargers, etc. I wouldn't recommend to put a water boiler or a microwave on it though


Wish I could do that! It is illegal in Hawai'i for motorists to operate electronic devices such as, but not limited to, cell phones, pagers, hand-held video game consoles, cameras, video cameras, etc. while driving a vehicle. Operating such devices by someone in the driving seat is only legal if the vehicle is pulled-over on the side of the road and the engine is turned off.


----------



## thun

Actually, that's about the same in Germany: http://bundesrecht.juris.de/stvo/__23.html
Imo, one could argument that a camera is a "Gerät" (object) according to §23 I StVO quite easily.
Mobile phones are explicitely mentioned in §23 Ia.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A46 Kreuz Hagen - Iserlohn - Hemer*

This set follows another fragment of A46, between Hagen and Hemer, mostly serving the city of Iserlohn. 

route:









*Eastbound*

Click here for the full set

1. Kreuz Hagen


2. 


3. Hagen-Hohenlimburg


4. Hagen-Elsey


5. 


6. Iserlohn-Letmathe


7. Iserlohn-Oestrich


8. Iserlohn-Zentrum


9. Iserlohn-Seilersee


10. End Autobahn


11. Hemer


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Westbound*

Click here for the full set

1.


2. Iserlohn-Seilersee


3. Iserlohn-Zentrum


4. Dechenhöhle


5. Iserlohn-Oestrich


6. Brückenbau


7. Iserlohn-Oestrich


8. Iserlohn-Letmathe


9. Hagen-Elsey


10. 


11. Hagen-Hohenlimburg


12. Kreuz Hagen


13.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are also plans to finish the gap of A46 between Hemer and Arnsberg. The missing link is 19 kilometers long, and will cost about € 235 million. It includes a tunnel under the town of Hemer. Opening in 2023 (low-priority project)


----------



## rarse

I just wanted to ask that Chris, about the missing part of A46. 

Thanks for the pictures.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A42 Dortmund - Herne - Gelsenkirchen - Duisburg - Kamp-Linfort*

A photoset of the entire Autobahn A42, westbound from Dortmund to Kamp-Lintfort.

Click here for the full set (91 pictures)

route:









1. Kreuz Castrop-Rauxel-Ost


2. A45 Frankfurt am Main


3. 


4. Castrop-Rauxel


5. Castrop-Rauxel-Bladenhorst


6. Herne-Börnig


7. 


8. Herne-Horsthausen


9. 


10. Herne-Baukau


11. Kreuz Herne


12. Herne-Crange


13. Herne-Wanne


14. Gelsenkirchen-Bismarck


15. Gelsenkirchen-Schalke


16. Gelsenkirchen-Zentrum


17. Gelsenkirchen-Heßler


18. 


19. Essen-Altenessen


20. Essen-Nord


21. 


22. Rhein-Herne Kanal


23. Bottrop-Süd


24. Oberhausen-Neue Mitte


25. Oberhausen-Neue Mitte (2x3)


26. Oberhausen-Zentrum


27. Oberhausen-Buschhausen


28. Kreuz Oberhausen-West


29. 


30. Duisburg-Neumühl


31. Kreuz Duisburg-Nord


32. Industrie


33. Duisburg-Beeck.


34. 


35. 


36. Rheinbrücke


37. Duisburg-Baerl


38. Moers-Nord


39. 


40. Kreuz Kamp-Lintfort


41.


----------



## E2rdEm

ChrisZwolle said:


> 18.


Does this mean that cloverleaf exits are no longer allowed to be signed as







_Kreuz_?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think the "Kreuz" status has been terminated. Until recently it was still Kreuz Essen-Nord, although I doubt if A52 has been signed in the last 10 years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A few more videos:

A3 Oberhausen, Duisburg:






A43 Dortmund - Kamp-Lintfort:






A52 Düsseldorf - Essen:


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> A few more videos:
> 
> A43 Dortmund - Kamp-Lintfort:


2:00 - World Cup game that day?

:cheers1:

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another Germany video, this time Autobahn A46 from Hagen to Hemer, passing through Iserlohn.


----------



## Endrix

hello, I need some advice.. I'm from London and am planning to go to Chemnitz, Germany (Near Dresden) by car this summer... I'm not completely sure what route I should take through Germany: 

Google is showing me 2 options, the A4 or the A40, A44 and A38 way.

I need to know what the best option would be.
ChrisZwolle I see that you have been in this area recently, could you or anybody else tell me what route I should take, i'm looking for information on road quality, traffic, roadworks and speed limits or preferably lack of them  Thanks in advance


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Endrix said:


> I need to know what the best option would be.
> ChrisZwolle I see that you have been in this area recently, could you or anybody else tell me what route I should take, i'm looking for information on road quality, traffic, roadworks and speed limits or preferably lack of them  Thanks in advance



I've driven both routes recently.

A4 is shorter, but has heavy truck traffic, a lot of speed limits and only 2x2 lanes in some sections (Bad Hersfeld - Eisenach and before Jena). A38 is also a 2x2 road, but has much less traffic and almost no speed limits. If you want to have a relaxed drive, and don't mind about 30 km or so more km's, I'd take A38. 

I suggest A2 to bypass the Ruhr area, not A40. A40 is the worst Autobahn in the entire Ruhr area, but A2 flows gently.


----------



## Endrix

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've driven both routes recently.
> 
> A4 is shorter, but has heavy truck traffic, a lot of speed limits and only 2x2 lanes in some sections (Bad Hersfeld - Eisenach and before Jena). A38 is also a 2x2 road, but has much less traffic and almost no speed limits. If you want to have a relaxed drive, and don't mind about 30 km or so more km's, I'd take A38.
> 
> I suggest A2 to bypass the Ruhr area, not A40. A40 is the worst Autobahn in the entire Ruhr area, but A2 flows gently.


Thanks Chris for the advice and suggestions. I am for definite taken the A38 now. 

About the A2, I was thinking of taking the A42 to bypass the Ruhr area or is that as bad as the A40?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are major roadworks on A42 in Duisburg and Oberhausen. A2 is only like 2 minutes further north.


----------



## flierfy

Endrix said:


> Thanks Chris for the advice and suggestions. I am for definite taken the A38 now.
> 
> About the A2, I was thinking of taking the A42 to bypass the Ruhr area or is that as bad as the A40?


The A 38 might be a good motorway. It just doesn't get you where you want to go.

The A 4 is the better choice for you in my eyes. It is shorter, quicker and more reliable. With Bruxelles and Köln there are only two conurbations on this route where you should avoid peak hours. The rest of the route is quiet and unimpressive.
I take the A 4 myself when I go to London. And I start my trip much closer to the A 38 than Chemnitz. There is no reason to take the detour of the northern route.


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've driven both routes recently.
> 
> A4 is shorter, but has heavy truck traffic, a lot of speed limits and only 2x2 lanes in some sections (Bad Hersfeld - Eisenach and before Jena). A38 is also a 2x2 road, but has much less traffic and almost no speed limits. If you want to have a relaxed drive, and don't mind about 30 km or so more km's, I'd take A38.


The package of the northern route doesn't just include the quiet A 38 but also a much less quiet A 44 which is prone to congestions in the proximity of Dortmund. Not to mention the heavily trafficked roads through the Ruhr area and Antwerpen whose ring road is even less pleasant than the one around Brussel. I really don't know why you advice this route.


----------



## Rijeka

Did anyone take A40 between Duisburg and Dortmund recently? I see there is an art project in the "Ruhr capital of culture 2010" programme (http://www.essen-fuer-das-ruhrgebie...y-of-the-big-road.html?tx_ttnews[backPid]=631). I am wondering whether it is possible to see anything of it while driving?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A40 has a major baustelle near Bochum. It is congested for most of the day, that's why I would use A2.

@ Firefly: He asked for the alternative route of A38. It is a good alternative if you want to have a relaxed drive on a quiet route and don't mind a few extra kilometers. A7 Kassel - Bad Hersfeld has steep grades with loads of truck traffic for about 60 km, and then another 60 km on A4 with 2x2 lanes and lots of trucks. A4 east of Eisenach is much better though. 

I never had a problem on A44 east of Dortmund the last 10 or so times I drove there. If it is busy, it's only until Werl, which is about 15 km. 

In the end, we're talking about a 20 mile difference on a 700 mile trip. You can also take a different route on the way back, so you can see both routes.


----------



## TommyLopez

^^Wilhem275: Yeah, of course we should but it´s related with economy and Danielk2 is right! 
Btw, now in august I tried essentially the whole A17 from the Czech border to Dresden and it was really perfect ride - awesome landscape and pefect new motorway! :cheers:


----------



## piotr71

Here are then:
*
A4 Eisenach-Gotha* _July 2010_


----------



## piotr71

And some longer time later:


----------



## Pansori

Great stuff, Piotr. I really enjoy tours like this. kay:


----------



## Positronn

Is this stretch speed limited?


----------



## Wilhem275

Very very nice pics... I like this coverage of german construction works


----------



## mgk920

Positronn said:


> Is this stretch speed limited?


From what I am aware of, no.

Mike


----------



## piotr71

You all are very welcome. Thanks.

I do not remember whether it was speed limit there or not. Probably, if it was, I would post a picture with speed limit sign as a first, so we can assume that this section of A4 hasn't got a limitation 

By the way, most of A4/E40 going through former East Germany looks similar. Vast part of this _autobahn_ has recently been redesigned and rebuilt, or is being rebuilt, to the highest imaginable standard. 


Some time ago in Polish section I posted a report from westernmost part of A4.
Here are several randomly chosen images from there and a link. 
































































All photos were taken by a my mother-in-law (actually sort of) so sometimes we can only see beautiful German skyline 

Lnk (from the post 1762) 
*http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=209457&page=89*


----------



## Blaskovitz

@Piotr71

Are you lorry driver or something? You are everywhere... In UK, Poland, Germany...


----------



## Fargo Wolf

Blaskovitz said:


> @Piotr71
> 
> Are you lorry driver or something? You are everywhere... In UK, Poland, Germany...


I don't think he is. The camera position is too low. They were taken from a car.

I would like to know what he does for a living, in order to be able to do the amount of driving he does.


----------



## flierfy

Pfosten said:


> what is hidden by the scripture "waltershausen" on the blue sign???


The name of the next junction, Sättelstädt.


----------



## Blaskovitz

Fargo Wolf said:


> I don't think he is. The camera position is too low. They were taken from a car.


Yes, that was my first suspicion  But maybe he is drive Citroen Berlingo or Peugeot Partner? And provides medications, human organs or sth? :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A pedestrian bridge across A2 near Bielefeld collapsed last Thursday.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Widening progress of A1 Bremen - Hamburg. The colors and years indicate the start of the widening works.


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> A pedestrian bridge across A2 near Bielefeld collapsed last Thursday.


It's the second time that the bridge was damaged by an HGV-accident.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Widening progress of A1 Bremen - Hamburg. The colors and years indicate the start of the widening works.


Well, the works start at the beginning of the year and ends in November/Decemer.
So in a few month the red/orange parts will be 2x3.


----------



## rarse

^^ So did the bridge (both times) collapsed by itself or did HGV truck destroy it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Newest video:

A98 - A861 Weil am Rhein - Lörrach - Rheinfelden.


----------



## -Pino-

The A3 between Cologne and the Mönchhofdreieck, where the A67 turns off towards Basel. Fullsize pictures on my Panoramio page.


----------



## Falusi

Nice pics.

But I don't really understand why 60 km/h is necessary in the outer lane. The other thing is, those holes are built in speed cameras?


-Pino- said:


>


That 130km/h sing on the left can be a bit deceptive, and the 100 for the other carriage as well. 


-Pino- said:


>


Nice vid kay:


ChrisZwolle said:


> Newest video:
> 
> A98 - A861 Weil am Rhein - Lörrach - Rheinfelden.


The end of A98 and A861 seems to be really new for me. When were they opened?

As I see A98 is proyected between A861 and the bypass of Tiengen.
 from www.autobahnatlas-online.de

Uploaded with ImageShack.us 
Anyone has some info about this section?


----------



## msz2

ChrisZwolle said:


> A pedestrian bridge across A2 near Bielefeld collapsed last Thursday.
> 
> ]


What was the reason that bridge colapsed


----------



## Wilhem275

"Woah, dude, they have some serious floods in Plauen!"


----------



## Rohne

The ultimate plan for the Darmstadt junction, 20km south of Frankfurt, where A5 Frankfurt - Heidelberg - Basel and A67 Mönchhofdreieck (just west of Frankfurt Airport) - Mannheim intersect:

https://darmstadt.more-rubin1.de/anlagen.php?anz=be&vid=122104100197&sid=ni_2010-Mag-190&status=1
(look at the pdf "AK DA - Übersichtslageplan").

The A5 that currently has 8 lanes between Frankfurt and Darmstadt will be widened to up to 15 lanes:
- northbound 4-5 lanes A5 Frankfurt + 2 exit lanes to/from A672 Darmstadt
- southbound one carriageway with 3 lanes A67 Mannheim + another carriageway with 2 lanes A5 Heidelberg + 2 lanes A672 Darmstadt + 1 lane A67 Rüsselsheim + another carriageway with a dedicated truck lane.

But note: This is just a mid to long term plan.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting plans. I notice there will be a LKW (truck) lane. Those are pretty rare in Europe. 

I assume capacity itself is not the biggest problem (traffic volume 2005: 120.000 vpd), but the weaving. Traffic from both A5 and A67 want to use the A672 into the city. Darmstadt is a city of 143.000 inhabitants, but is basically only served by A672. The A672 is not much more than a big exit from A5 and A67 into Darmstadt. It is only 2 km long.


----------



## Rohne

You're right.

In Germany, the only truck lane as part of a junction currently is at Hattenbacher Dreieck A5/A7 southbound (relation Kassel -> Frankfurt). A few kilometers north, at Kirchheimer Dreieck A4/A7 there is one planned (relation Erfurt -> Frankfurt), which will also carry the traffic from direction Erfurt to exit Kirchheim.
Kindinger Berg (A9 München -> Nürnberg) also has a separated truck lane, but it doesn't belong to a junction.


----------



## kato2k8

As far as i know these are never exclusive truck lanes, it's just that other lanes are closed to truck traffic.

In Baden-Württemberg official planning papers, all Autobahn sections with an overtake probition for trucks are separated into a "LKW-Spur" and "PKW-Spuren" - and there's plenty of those, at least a couple km on every single Autobahn running through the state. The purpose of this differentiation lays in the much higher maintenance cost of the "LKW-Spur", as well as of course planning regarding width of lanes (a PKW-Spur doesn't need to be 3.25m or 3.75m wide...).


----------



## Rohne

You misunderstood something. What you mentioned is just an "LKW-Überholverbot" (no-passing for trucks), which can be found quite often. But we were talking about Truck lanes that are installed on dedicated carriageways separated from the other lanes, especially in junctions. You won't find many of these.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

kato2k8 said:


> The purpose of this differentiation lays in the much higher maintenance cost of the "LKW-Spur", as well as of course planning regarding width of lanes (a PKW-Spur doesn't need to be 3.25m or 3.75m wide...).


A recent trend is to make asphalt motorways with concrete on the right lanes, with just a single layer asphalt on top, to reduce wear and tear. I believe they did this on A3 near Köln. 

PKW-spuren need to be wide, because traffic flows with a so-called "sine wave" (meaning a car does not drive exactly in the same path all the time, it deviates left and right due to winds, alignment and the driver not paying attention). The higher the speeds, the bigger the sine wave is, thus requiring much wider lanes than the width of the design vehicle.


----------



## Kreicherisch

Morsue said:


> The restriction is primarily in place to prevent trucks from overtaking other trucks. The difference in speed is often so small that it takes ages before the overtaking action is complete, blocking faster traffic and causing jams. This is referred to as an "elephant race".


Having driven on I-5 in the California Central Valley, I know exactly how it feels like. But I'm okay.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.rp-online.de/niederrhein...hten/Bau-der-A61-hat-begonnen_aid_918560.html

Construction of the A61 extension near Venlo has begun. At the same time, we're still awaiting construction to commence in the Netherlands (A74).


----------



## kato2k8

Rohne said:


> But we were talking about Truck lanes that are installed on dedicated carriageways separated from the other lanes, especially in junctions.


Pure truck lanes do not exist in Germany. There is no way to signal such a lane available through the StVO. When a lane is marked as "LKW-Spur" (e.g. at Elzer Berg) it's simply that all other lanes get a #253 sign (no trucks), but that one lane is still open to vehicles other than trucks.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's right.


----------



## Rohne

kato2k8 said:


> Pure truck lanes do not exist in Germany.


Of course they exist. ChrisZwolle showed the signage short before such a section. The truck lane has a dedicated carriageway that was built a few years ago separated from all other lanes. Another one is planned 2km north at Kirchheimer Dreieck. Truck lane doesn't necessarily mean Truck-only lane.


----------



## krkseg1ops

^^ Yet he still proves his point on pure truck lanes not existing 
I just wanted to compliment German Autobahns as the best roads in the world. Seriously, I've been to some countries but nothing compares to what the Germans have achieved. 
/bow


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The widening of A8 Rosenheim - Salzburg may be sped up. News reports say the priority status has changed from "weiterer bedarf" to "vordringlicher bedarf", and construction could commence in 2016.

Because we are talking about a motorway that was constructed in the 1930's, it basically means a total reconstruction, partially across new alignments, which may push the price over € 1 billion total.


----------



## Jeroen669

kato2k8 said:


> Pure truck lanes do not exist in Germany. There is no way to signal such a lane available through the StVO. When a lane is marked as "LKW-Spur" (e.g. at Elzer Berg) it's simply that all other lanes get a #253 sign (no trucks), but that one lane is still open to vehicles other than trucks.


I guess if they'd really want a LKW-only lane, it would be possible by using a plain white sign with a red edge. Like this.


----------



## thun

Yes. That would be a way. Or simply creating a new sign, which isn't that hard to implement.


----------



## x-type

krkseg1ops said:


> I just wanted to compliment German Autobahns as the best roads in the world. Seriously, I've been to some countries but nothing compares to what the Germans have achieved.
> /bow


frankly, i really don't know why do you think in that way. except perfect speed limit system (no, i don't mean the recomended speed thing, i mean on situation where each speed limit is placed with reason) and almost perfect direction signalization, i don't see anything the best there :dunno:


----------



## ABRob

Pictures of A30 construction:


























All images:
http://picasaweb.google.com/BABRob/A3023102010

Up-to-date map:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.2201&lon=8.7962&zoom=13&layers=M


----------



## Surel

^^

When are they going to be finished there? I used to tank in Bad Oeynhausen. Which reminds me, the german gasoline seems to be better than the dutch one. At leasts it makes more kms... .


----------



## ABRob

Surel said:


> When are they going to be finished there?


2013/14
Depends on the winter 2013/14


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice to see some progress now. I visited the worksite in the spring and there wasn't much going on back then.


----------



## Grisent

Good to see A30 being completed, thanks for the photos.

That reminds me -- I have seen a very memorable gantry sign right there in Bad Oeynhausen. Most probably, it was on the eastbound route E30 through the city, just where the traffic has successfully navigated through the streets and is ready to rejoin A30.

I remember that the sign was just above the autobahn sliproad; it was yellow, it was HUGE and there probably wasn't a lot of text on it - but the lettering was also HUGE. Seeing it emerge above the road was a real 'whoa' moment.

Does anybody have a picture of it, perchance?


----------



## ABRob

Grisent said:


> Good to see A30 being completed, thanks for the photos.
> 
> That reminds me -- I have seen a very memorable gantry sign right there in Bad Oeynhausen. Most probably, it was on the eastbound route E30 through the city, just where the traffic has successfully navigated through the streets and is ready to rejoin A30.
> 
> I remember that the sign was just above the autobahn sliproad; it was yellow, it was HUGE and there probably wasn't a lot of text on it - but the lettering was also HUGE. Seeing it emerge above the road was a real 'whoa' moment.
> 
> Does anybody have a picture of it, perchance?


Should be this one:


----------



## Grisent

Exactly, thanks!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In anticipation of the A39 construction between Lüneburg and Wolfsburg, the A250 has been renumbered A39 today!

source


----------



## ABRob

German will get it's first Dutch-style Aquaduct:









It will be here under the Schwinge river near the town of Stade as a part of the new A26. The A26 will connect the new A20 Elbtunnel, A7 and the harbour of Hamburg.

Some plans are available here


----------



## x-type

is A395 the longest 3-digit motorway in D?


----------



## Wilhem275

*@ABRob: *Isn't this an aquaduct?

Or maybe you mean an aquaduct with an Autobahn underneath the river?


----------



## ABRob

x-type said:


> is A395 the longest 3-digit motorway in D?


No, A661 is longer:
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?5,127481,132521#msg-132521



Wilhem275 said:


> *@ABRob: *Isn't this an aquaduct?


That's a channel over a road and not a road 'diving' under a channel/river like the Dutch Aquaducts.


----------



## Wilhem275

Ok, got the difference


----------



## flierfy

ABRob said:


> That's a channel over a road and not a road 'diving' under a channel/river like the Dutch Aquaducts.


It's a canal rather than a channel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice picture of the Ostwestfalendamm in Bielefeld.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A missing link in the B67 2+1 road has been opened today, a 9.7 km section between Rhede and Borken, providing a high-standard route between A3 and A31 south of the Dutch border. A future extension to the A43 near Dülmen is planned.


----------



## Sarcasm

*2 Richtungsfahrbahn vs. 2-streifiger neubau*

I downloaded a pdf with a map and a table showing the current construction activity on the German autobahn network from the German Ministry of Transport & Construction. http://www.bmvbs.de/cae/servlet/contentblob/56072/publicationFile/27874/neubau-und-erweiterung-von-bundesautobahnen-uebersichtskarte-und-tabelle-nicht-barrierefrei.pdf

I’m a little puzzled by the terms used to describe the type of roads that are being built as listed in the “Neubau” section. 

Obviously “*4-streifig neubau*” means that it is a dual carriageway with two lanes in each direction -> 2x2 being built. Same goes for “*6-streifig neubau*” dual carriageway with three lanes in each direction-> 2x3 under construction. 
What about “*2 Richtungsfahrbahn*” and “*2-streifiger neubau*”??

An autobahn should have at least two fahrbahnen (carriageways) with two fahrstreifen (lanes) in each direction. 

So does the “*2 Richtungsfahrbahn*” mean that they are building only one carriageway with one lane in each direction of travel? How can it be an autobahn then? Shouldn’t it be classified as a Schnellstraße or a Bundestraße. 

What is “*2 steifiger naubau*” in that case? A dual carriageway with one lane in each direction doesn’t make sense. Are they adding a second carriageway where there is currently only one carriageway, to make it dual carriageway with two lanes in each direction? If that is the case shouldn't that be Erweiterung and not Neubau.

I hope that maybe ChrisZwolle or somebody else knowledgeable with German autobahn could help explain the “2 Richtungsfahrbahn” and “2-streifiger neubau” terminology.


P.S. the BMVBS document from January of 2010 doesn't show any plans for BAB 43 extension, even under "Weiterer Bedarf mit Planungsrecht" category. Chris is there another government website that has more up to date info?


----------



## Aphelion

2. Richtungsfahrbahn means "second carriageway", meaning the first one was built earlier and the second one was just added.


----------



## thun

"4/6-streifiger Neubau" literally means construction of a new road with 4/6 lanes but not necessarily two carriageways (although that is probably the rule and always the case if we talk about motorways).
"Zweistreifiger Neubau" is the new construction of a new 1x1 road.

A "Richtungsfahrbahn" is a carriageway (A motorway has 2 "Richtungsfahrbahnen").
Adding a second one doesn't mean upgrating from one to two lanes but adding a second carriageway in my opinion. That is the case when a normal 1x1 road is upgrated to a (yellow) motorway: They add a second carriageway and use the existing 1x1 road as the other one.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> A missing link in the B67 2+1 road has been opened today, a 9.7 km section between Rhede and Borken, providing a high-standard route between A3 and A31 south of the Dutch border. A future extension to the A43 near Dülmen is planned.
> 
> http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/9079/b67.png


I made a video of this section today. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pics:

*B67 Isselburg - Bocholt - Dülmen*

1.

IMG_5538 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

IMG_5539 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

IMG_5540 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

IMG_5544 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

IMG_5546 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

IMG_5550 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

IMG_5553 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

IMG_5554 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

IMG_5556 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10. Begin 2+1

IMG_5558 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

IMG_5561 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

IMG_5562 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

IMG_5563 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

IMG_5564 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

IMG_5566 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

IMG_5567 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

IMG_5569 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

IMG_5570 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

IMG_5571 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

IMG_5572 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

IMG_5573 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

IMG_5576 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

IMG_5578 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.

IMG_5579 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.

IMG_5580 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.

IMG_5582 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.

IMG_5583 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.

IMG_5584 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.

IMG_5586 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.

IMG_5588 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

31.

IMG_5590 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.

IMG_5592 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33.

IMG_5594 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.

IMG_5596 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

35.

IMG_5599 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Falusi

Nice road and report! I like these 2+1 grade-separated roads. Contunious drive + many overtaking possibilities, and it's cheaper than a motorway.
In Germany the expressway sing has any special meaning (like raised speed limits, etc.) or only means that it's a higher quality road, that has grade-separated interchanges and bypassing inhabited areas?


----------



## BND

^^ the expressway sign in Germany means that the road is for motor vehicles only, speed limit is still 100 km/h as on any other road outside settlements. German speed limits are very simple:


----------



## thun

Augsburg-Ulm will be completed in 2014. It's going to be buildt by a private company, financed by lorry tollls.
There are plans to rearrange the whole situation between Mühlhausen and Hohenstadt (i. e. build the Albanstieg new, as that stretch climbing the Schwäbische Alb is more or less originally from the 1930ies and very steep and not even near to modern standards). Originallly, the idea was to finance it by a toll (the so called F-Modell applied to some tunnels here an there already). That was stopped some time ago by new studies coming to the result that this is not possible on that stretch. So at the moment no-one knows if and when that stretch is going to be buildt. The stretch on top of the Alb uplands is planned to be upgrated between 2012 and 2017.
The German Wikipedia article for the A8 hat a lot of details in it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.badische-zeitung.de/base...-umfahrung-um-basel-ist-fertig--38608714.html

The last remaining 2-lane section of the A98 bypass of Basel has been widened to 2x2 lanes. The entire Basel bypass on German soil is now a 4-lane motorway, consisting of A98 and A861.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Widening of A40 near the Gelsenkirchen-Süd junction:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Widening of A40 in Bochum:




































Photos: strassen.nrw.de


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Widening of A40 through Bochum-Dückerweg:


----------



## LtBk

Somebody probably mentioned this, but why German Autobahns have no street lighting in the urban areas?


----------



## ABRob

LtBk said:


> Somebody probably mentioned this, but why German Autobahns have no street lighting in the urban areas?


Why should they?
Cars have their own lights and pedestrians are not allowed on motorways.
There are a few spots with lights - but they will be shut down in the future, because it adds nothing to traffic security.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I prefer to drive on dark motorways as well.


----------



## LtBk

I'm just wondering because the urban motorways in other Europeans countries are lit up.


----------



## 909

Well, sometimes the Autobahn could use a little bit more lighting. Some interchanges a totally in the dark which could be quite annoying when driving at high speed and searching for the exit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some aerials of the A1 Hamburg - Bremen widening (2x3)

These are from 2009, but give a good impression of the widening works.


----------



## g.spinoza

Works on the A9, between München-Freimann and the end of the motorway in the Mittlerer Ring, finished last friday. I do not really know when did they start and what did they do, because I moved to München last month, but my friends here say this was going on since few years and I think they involved the enlargment of the bridge over the U-bahn.


----------



## thun

^^ Widening to four lanes, if I'm not wrong.


----------



## PLH

Weird they managed to do this, considering conditions on A9 today:


----------



## Rohne

^^ The first snow pic you showed is not A9 but A5 near Frankfurt (exit Langen/Mörfelden)...

And the second one is A9, yes, but Hermsdorfer Kreuz in Thuringia, a few 100kms north of München. Last friday weather conditions hadn't been as bad as shown on the pictures.
What they did in München was just a reconstruction (and light widening) of the bridge, before during and after the works there are/were 2x2 lanes.


----------



## x-type

i am absolutely offtopic, but i could get the answer the fastest here. so could somebody post a web address where one could check insurance of the vehicle according to number of licence plates in Germany?


----------



## g.spinoza

thun said:


> ^^ Widening to four lanes, if I'm not wrong.


No, the bridge now is three lanes, with one being just an exit lane.


----------



## kato2k8

x-type said:


> could somebody post a web address where one could check insurance of the vehicle according to number of licence plates in Germany?


Only possible for light scooters (under 50cc), as those are the only vehicles in Germany where the license plate is connected to insurance in any way.
If you mean those see http://www.gdv-dl.de/mofakennzeichen.html to check.


----------



## muc

> Works on the A9, between München-Freimann and the end of the motorway in the Mittlerer Ring, finished last friday. I do not really know when did they start and what did they do, because I moved to München last month, but my friends here say this was going on since few years and I think they involved the enlargment of the bridge over the U-bahn.


This was a complete replacement of the old bridge, which was badly damaged due to corrosion. It did not involve any widening, the number of lanes is exactly like it was before.
There is a website about that project (German only): http://www.a9-hochbruecke.de/.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Many bridges in Germany are being renovated. It's actually a major problem that so many have to be renovated or replaced at the same time, the downside of building many motorways at the same time. Something to think about for countries which recently built a lot of motorways (Spain, Portugal, Poland, Hungary, etc.) It's wise to save money for major renovation works in 30 - 40 years time.


----------



## thun

kato2k8 said:


> Only possible for light scooters (under 50cc), as those are the only vehicles in Germany where the license plate is connected to insurance in any way.
> If you mean those see http://www.gdv-dl.de/mofakennzeichen.html to check.


Not true. Insurances classify their customers into different risk groups according to the statistics on accidents - and these are based (also) on the county level. Therefore, car insurance varies from city/county to city/county.
Unfortunately, I don't know where to find such a list.


----------



## kato2k8

Sure, but he didn't ask about the Regionalklassen, he asked about finding a vehicle's insurance company from its license plates. At least that's what i'm pulling out of that post...


----------



## thun

Hm. Maybe. That could be the question, too. I did understand it differently. 
Anyway, now he has an answer for a question he didn't ask for free. And if he's lucky also one for the question he actually asked.


----------



## Isek

muc said:


> It did not involve any widening, the number of lanes is exactly like it was before.


Which is completely ridiculous! It's a major spot for jams for any time not only during rush hours or holidays. It is even more funny if one considers that about 200 m north the motorway widens to 3 lanes and 500 m further it includes 4 lanes that are carrying almost the same traffic that the 2 lanes on the bridge have to carry.


----------



## g.spinoza

Isek said:


> Which is completely ridiculous! It's a major spot for jams for any time not only during rush hours or holidays. It is even more funny if one considers that about 200 m north the motorway widens to 3 lanes and 500 m further it includes 4 lanes that are carrying almost the same traffic that the 2 lanes on the bridge have to carry.


Well, the spot for jams is not actually the bridge but the end of the motorway in the Mittlerer Ring, which is always jammed and can't sustain traffic coming from the A9... but I agree that the 2-3-4 lanes things in quite absurd...


----------



## muc

> Which is completely ridiculous! It's a major spot for jams for any time not only during rush hours or holidays. It is even more funny if one considers that about 200 m north the motorway widens to 3 lanes and 500 m further it includes 4 lanes that are carrying almost the same traffic that the 2 lanes on the bridge have to carry.


I disagree. A lot of inbound traffic leaves at the bridge towards Frankfurter Ring and Foehringer Ring (not now as the ramp to Foehringer Ring is still being renovated). So it makes perfect sense to go from 3 to 2 lanes here. The real bottleneck is the junction with Mittlerer Ring at the end of A9, continuing with 3 lanes up to there would only help if you add lanes to Mittlerer Ring as well, which won't happen due to lack of space.

About the same can be said vice versa for outbound traffic.

I am driving over that bridge on my daily commute (luckily against the cycle) and noticed that congestion has significantly reduced since construction works are finished. It will get even better when the ramp to Foehringer Ring is finished. That will hopefully get off some pressure from Mittlerer Ring.

The real solution to improve the situation on the A9 would be to connect the A92 from Feldmoching to Mittlerer Ring at Olympiastatdion and so have a second Autobahn from the north into Munich. This was originally planned as far as I know but given up in the early 80's I think.


----------



## g.spinoza

muc said:


> I am driving over that bridge on my daily commute (luckily against the cycle)


Outbound in the morning, inbound in the evening? So I am.

Working in Garching Forschungszentrum?


----------



## muc

^^ No, further out in Freising.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Incredible traffic jam on A1:



> A1/E37
> From: Bramsche To: Lübeck-Moisling
> slow traffic for 261 km


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Interchange (Kreuz) Aachen will be reconstructed between 2009 and 2014. The interchange consists of two separate junctions, and the section in between will be widened from 10 to 17 lanes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice view on A62 near Landstuhl.


----------



## mgk920

^^Fascinating, checking the Google aerial images of that area, you can easily make out the 'ghosts' of the A6's original routing east of the A62 before the Ramstein air base was built, including the 'ghost' of its original A62 interchange.

Mike


----------



## mgk920

Also, while poking around in that general area, I noticed a plethora of ghost ramps, interchanges and grades around Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler (A61, A571, A573, B266 area). What are/were the 'buildout' plans for that area?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=50.550853,7.150383&spn=0.062935,0.175781&z=13

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It was planned to extend A31 from Bottrop right through the Ruhr area all the way to Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler. I think the plans weren't shelved until the early 1990's. 

There is a large number of US Air Force and US Army facilities in the area including various air bases and the Landstuhl Army Medical Center.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice aerial of Kreuz Kaarst (A52/A57) near Neuss / Düsseldorf. This is your typical Ruhr area cloverleaf.


----------



## Positronn

I have a question, maybe someone could answer me 

Are elevated streches and tunnels speed-limited? It seems a little unsafe to drive 200km/h through a tunnel in a German Autobahn, although there aren't many in a typical one.


----------



## muc

The speed in tunnels is usually limited to 100km/h or 80km/h.


----------



## Morsue

^^ Haha, that forest in the cloverleaf looks so out of place.


----------



## Grisent

Good stuff! Where do you find such fabulous pictures? 

Or do you now have a private helicopter?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Morsue said:


> ^^ Haha, that forest in the cloverleaf looks so out of place.


Many German cloverleafs have this, I think it is policy to plant trees alongside of motorways. Same in Belgium. I actually don't like it as much because there is often not much to see around the motorways...



Grisent said:


> Good stuff! Where do you find such fabulous pictures?
> 
> Or do you now have a private helicopter?


I usually find them while browsing through Google Earth.


----------



## mgk920

Wilhem275 said:


> Those treeless lines can be seen anywhere, browsing Gmaps, and they've been a giant doubt for me for a long time.
> 
> I thought they might have been safety measures against fires, but there are some even in areas with just a few trees (like in the picture).
> 
> Only recently, thanks to Street View, I discovered their real purpose


High-energy power lines pass through forest cuts like there here in the USA, too. The first thing that I thought when I saw that clear path through the interchange in that image was 'power lines'.

Mike


----------



## kato2k8

The alternative are pipelines btw. Especially south Germany is riddled with pipelines only one to three meters underground transporting oil, processed fuel, liquid chemicals, steam, other gasses etc. Such pipelines can be spotted from the air by 10-30 meter wide cuts in forests etc. Although quite often they simply run in close parallel to existing streets or - in the forest - existing roads and paths.


----------



## PLH

Can anyone tell me the (approximate) cost of such an overhead sign? Thanks in advance


----------



## Danielk2

Are you planning on constructing a hwy in you backyard or something?


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Wilhem275 said:


> *I thought they might have been safety measures against fires,* but there are some even in areas with just a few trees (like in the picture).


This is also correct. Treeless lines within large forests are a good way to stop a forest fire. This safety measure is not uncommon in Estonia, for example.


----------



## PLH

Danielk2 said:


> Are you planning on constructing a hwy in you backyard or something?


No, not really, just wondering.


----------



## Wilhem275

Danielk2 said:


> Are you planning on constructing a hwy in you backyard or something?


I am


----------



## kato2k8

PLH said:


> Can anyone tell me the (approximate) cost of such an overhead sign? Thanks in advance


Somewhere in the region of €70,000 to €100,000 (in Germany), including mounting systems and installation; also depends on size, lighting systems and such. Only the sign itself without the mount probably around €15-20,000.

More complicated systems, e.g. switchable electronic displays on such a overhead sign, can make the whole overhead installation run in the region of €200,000 to €300,000.


----------



## hofburg

what are they made of, gold :nuts:


----------



## x-type

kato2k8 said:


> Somewhere in the region of €70,000 to €100,000 (in Germany), including mounting systems and installation; also depends on size, lighting systems and such. Only the sign itself without the mount probably around €15-20,000.
> 
> More complicated systems, e.g. switchable electronic displays on such a overhead sign, can make the whole overhead installation run in the region of €200,000 to €300,000.


:? :?
can you give us some links to prove that? this seems to be incredibly expensive and personaly i won't believe it till i see some reliable source.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Seems plausible to me. A traffic light installation for a larger intersection quickly amounts to € 250.000 and a roundabout may run from € 500.000 to € 1 million for a turbo roundabout.

The Netherlands constructed 3.000 roundabouts in the past decade. At € 500.000 per roundabout, this means € 750 million has been spend on roundaboutization here. You can build 50 - 100 km of motorway for that kind of money.


----------



## mcarling

x-type said:


> :? :?
> can you give us some links to prove that? this seems to be incredibly expensive and personaly i won't believe it till i see some reliable source.


Everything is much more expensive when a government is involved.


----------



## x-type

mcarling said:


> Everything is much more expensive when a government is involved.


yep, i see. i've been searching for a company which was involved into equipping HR motorways with dynamic signs to try to see its price. but, you're guessing, that company doesn't exist anymore :lol:


----------



## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> Seems plausible to me. A traffic light installation for a larger intersection quickly amounts to € 250.000 and a roundabout may run from € 500.000 to € 1 million for a turbo roundabout.
> 
> The Netherlands constructed 3.000 roundabouts in the past decade. At € 500.000 per roundabout, this means € 750 million has been spend on *roundaboutization* here. You can build 50 - 100 km of motorway for that kind of money.


Sounds funny :lol:


----------



## kato2k8

x-type said:


> :? :?
> can you give us some links to prove that? this seems to be incredibly expensive and personaly i won't believe it till i see some reliable source.


(all links in German, with pics)

Here's one relatively current example from last year:
http://www.kn-online.de/lokales/ploen/140752-Neue-Schilderbruecken-in-Ploen-kosten-375000-Euro.html
The town of Plön is replacing four _Schilderbrücken_ with relatively small signs at a local freeway, total cost for all four €375,000.

Pricy electronic display version:
http://www.fernfahrer.de/newsarchiv/a8-schilderbruecken-fuer-mehr-sicherheit.htm
(55 new _Verkehrsbrücken_ with 290 displays total on the A8 costing 21 million Euro - note: pic in link unrelated)

Here's a cheap version, in Fulda on the B458:
http://www.osthessen-news.de/beitrag_I.php?id=1185268
24,000 Euro, sign is 24 m² - Autobahn signs are not only at least twice as big (two standard sizes: 45-50 m² and 55-60 m²), the "bridge" also has to span quite a bit more and be built a bit more... robustly.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Seems plausible to me. A traffic light installation for a larger intersection quickly amounts to € 250.000 and a roundabout may run from € 500.000 to € 1 million for a turbo roundabout.


Roundabouts in Germany are a lot cheaper. Usually €150-200,000 for a smaller one, €300-400,000 for larger, capable ones.
Belgium has similar prices to the Netherlands there btw.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Dutch roundabouts usually have bicycle facilities which would make them somewhat more expensive, plus the soil usually isn't too cooperative, especially out west.


----------



## x-type

kato2k8 said:


> (all links in German, with pics)


horrible prices  i was sure that average portal sign doesn't cost more than 3000€.


----------



## flierfy

x-type said:


> horrible prices  i was sure that average portal sign doesn't cost more than 3000€.


For this amount of money you get a sign of this size:


----------



## Danielk2

ChrisZwolle said:


> the soil usually isn't too cooperative, especially out west.


Then stop expanding your overpopulated country


----------



## Highwaycrazy

flierfy said:


> For this amount of money you get a sign of this size:


That is a Rip off.... Why so expensive? Maybe import them from cheaper countries?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sign making is a special business. Usually only a few companies do that. In the Netherlands there may be 4 or 5 sign-making businesses (regarding directional signage). Second, many people severely underestimate how large these signs are. An overhead sign for 3 lanes + exit quickly amounts to some 60 - 70 m² of metal. Metal isn't free either. Then you have to mount it across the roadway. The gantries are probably most expensive if there are no special electronics (such as motorway traffic management) required.


----------



## kato2k8

This pic should show the size a bit, also of the required gantry:










Source: Europoles, one such sign producer. The gantry is made of concrete btw.


----------



## Surel

kato2k8 said:


> Pricy electronic display version:
> http://www.fernfahrer.de/newsarchiv/a8-schilderbruecken-fuer-mehr-sicherheit.htm
> (55 new _Verkehrsbrücken_ with 290 displays total on the A8 costing 21 million Euro - note: pic in link unrelated)


I should like to see the German prices in the Czech Republic.



















The whole tender was for Kapsch and the price tag was 40 mil Euro for 30 boards. Even if some additional costs would be substracted, the net price of one board would be around 0,5 mil Euro.


----------



## Surel

The signs are so expensive becasue there is little or no competition on the market. In cases of some countries :O (CZ) I would dare to say, there is the supplier setting the price before the tender starts. This holds for the whole motorway construction business.


----------



## thun

Above all, it's labour cost I'd say. You probably need experts to put them up, usually they work at night to affect traffic the least possible, etc. It all adds up on the price tag.


----------



## -Pino-

It all starts with raw material. As Chris mentions, it starts with 60-70 m2 of metal, and it won't be of scrapheap quality. Than the gantry, which is heavy and made out of strong materials. And because the gantry is heavy, you will need a good counterweight underground at both sides of the gantry. That makes very high costs, and then you have to start manufacturing the sign (i.e. its contents printed on DiamondGrade plastic), place it and pay the people involved in that very process. Only at the latter stage, a lack of competition in market may start to play a role in high prices, but that is only after incurring a lot of costs that cannot be avoided, even in fierce competition.

It is the sheer cost of material that makes the major difference in pricing between a small sign (e.g. the one posted at #3098) and a gantry. A small sign requires less material, not much of a supporting construction and therefore a very limited counterweight.


----------



## Praktykteoretyk

I would like to ask about formal aspects of road rules in Federal Republic of Germany. You have quite a lot of documents (laws) concerning road traffic. There are: 
Straßenverkehrs gesetz (StVG)
Straßenverkehrs ordnung (StVO)
Straßenverkehrs zulassungs ordnung (StVZO)

Can anyone explain me what are the differences between them?
Which of these documents describes such questions as: priority at junctions, roundabouts, right of way of trams (when, what types of junctions at), overtaking etc. Where can I find official list of traffic signs in German language (list published by the government or parliament).

I will be grateful for informations.


----------



## Highwaycrazy

-Pino- said:


> It all starts with raw material. As Chris mentions, it starts with 60-70 m2 of metal, and it won't be of scrapheap quality. Than the gantry, which is heavy and made out of strong materials. And because the gantry is heavy, you will need a good counterweight underground at both sides of the gantry. That makes very high costs, and then you have to start manufacturing the sign (i.e. its contents printed on DiamondGrade plastic), place it and pay the people involved in that very process. Only at the latter stage, a lack of competition in market may start to play a role in high prices, but that is only after incurring a lot of costs that cannot be avoided, even in fierce competition.
> 
> It is the sheer cost of material that makes the major difference in pricing between a small sign (e.g. the one posted at #3098) and a gantry. A small sign requires less material, not much of a supporting construction and therefore a very limited counterweight.


 
Maybe get them 100% manufactured in China and transport them back to Germany, perhaps by rail through Russia? It would be interesting to see how much could be saved by that.


----------



## x-type

ok, but it is still unbelievably expensive. lets start with raw material. let it cost 1/5 of total price. so cca 15-20000€. the first thing which comes to my mind and has similar area is metal roof for a house. do you really think it can cost 15000€?! and roof is more complicated system than direction sign board. it can cost up to 5000€, works included. 

it is not that i don't trust in those prices, you have proved them, but they are unbelievably unreal and crazy imo.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Overhead signage receive significant wind force, thus gantries must be very solid in order to withstand a gale.


----------



## thun

Praktykteoretyk said:


> I would like to ask about formal aspects of road rules in Federal Republic of Germany. You have quite a lot of documents (laws) concerning road traffic. There are:
> Straßenverkehrs gesetz (StVG)
> Straßenverkehrs ordnung (StVO)
> Straßenverkehrs zulassungs ordnung (StVZO)
> 
> Can anyone explain me what are the differences between them?
> Which of these documents describes such questions as: priority at junctions, roundabouts, right of way of trams (when, what types of junctions at), overtaking etc. Where can I find official list of traffic signs in German language (list published by the government or parliament).


Such information can be found in the StVO.

The StVG is the law for road traffic (contains e. g. general rules for the vehicle register, penalties, etc.) StVO and StVZO are the detailled regulations ("(Ver-)Ordnung") of the StVG by the ministry of transport (authorized within the StVG (a law passed by the parliament) to enact them). Therefore, the StVO can be changed quite easily (without having to pass the changes through the parliament) by the executive (the ministry). For drivers, the StVO is by far the most relevant one containg all the relevant regulations for traffic (e. g. way of right, traffic signs, rules of behaviour, etc.).

The StVZO is loosing importance more and more and will be replaced by other regulations in the future. Two parts were already transferred into the Fahrerlaubnisverordnung (FeV) (regulating driving licences and penalties for offences against them) and the Fahrzeug-Zulassungsverordnung (FZV) (regulating the registration of vehicles). Two more regulations (Fahrzeug-Genehmigungs-Verordnung (FGV) and Fahrzeug-Betriebs-Verordnung (FBV)) will replace the remaining parts of the StVZO in the future.


----------



## Surel

x-type said:


> ok, but it is still unbelievably expensive. lets start with raw material. let it cost 1/5 of total price. so cca 15-20000€. the first thing which comes to my mind and has similar area is metal roof for a house. do you really think it can cost 15000€?! and roof is more complicated system than direction sign board. it can cost up to 5000€, works included.
> 
> it is not that i don't trust in those prices, you have proved them, but they are unbelievably unreal and crazy imo.


I agree completaly.

It is just ridiculous when something like a road sign costs more than a family house (actually a villa).

Just compare:

180 th. euro, 226 m2
http://www.rdstyl.cz/typy-domu/exklusive-plus/rodinny-dum-na-klic-exklusive-plus.aspx

500 th. euro










The conditions that it has to stand are more or less the same. The only reasoning for such exceeded prices are special relations between the demanding side and supplying side due to the lack of competition.


There are many tricks that you can use. You can say, that the boards might be constructed only by certified firms. Then you will make it very hard to get these certificates.... Other one, you could ask very specific conditions for the realization of the signs that would yield in only few participants in the tender... etc. etc. There is also maybe too many middle man involved.

Anyway when you check prices here, you might get a picture:

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/highway-board.html

E.g. this board costs according to the manufacturer US $1,300 - 1,600 / Square Meter, Available in Hong Kong.


----------



## Highwaycrazy

Still doesn't account for the over-inflated prices..... As I recommended, the German Government should consider Hong Kong or China for future signage. There definitely appears a lack of competition in this business in Germany / other parts of Europe. Seriously though, only a super-rich country could afford to pay that amount of money for Highway signs. Even non-gantry signs seem ridiculously expensive - EUR 3,000 for the small yellow sign on the previous page is too sweet a price for any Government to pay. Especially in the current economic climate.


----------



## Surel

well I believe that some of them indeed come from China, but through european middle man that cuts the hair... .


----------



## -Pino-

It has turned out that even a German manufacturer cannot create signs in accordance with Dutch lay-out standards (see the somewhat odd-looking signs close to the A2-A73 intersection). Imagine what the Chinese would come up with.


----------



## thun

Surel said:


> I agree completaly.
> 
> It is just ridiculous when something like a road sign costs more than a family house (actually a villa).
> 
> Just compare:
> 
> 180 th. euro, 226 m2
> http://www.rdstyl.cz/typy-domu/exklusive-plus/rodinny-dum-na-klic-exklusive-plus.aspx
> 
> 500 th. euro
> http://www.rsd.cz/rsd/rsd.nsf/a3eda...9a/Body/0.DBE?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=jpg
> 
> 
> The conditions that it has to stand are more or less the same. The only reasoning for such exceeded prices are special relations between the demanding side and supplying side due to the lack of competition.
> 
> 
> There are many tricks that you can use. You can say, that the boards might be constructed only by certified firms. Then you will make it very hard to get these certificates.... Other one, you could ask very specific conditions for the realization of the signs that would yield in only few participants in the tender... etc. etc. There is also maybe too many middle man involved.
> 
> Anyway when you check prices here, you might get a picture:
> 
> http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/highway-board.html
> 
> E.g. this board costs according to the manufacturer US $1,300 - 1,600 / Square Meter, Available in Hong Kong.
> http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/342271494/highway_message_board_Pixel_10mm.jpg


You can't compare the price level of two completely different countries like that.
E. g. in Germany, you will hardly be able to build a house under 300,000 or 400,000 Euros. One the size you posted (if it's not pre-produced in a facory) will easily cost close to a million - land aquisition not included, obviously.
In China, where minimum wage is probably 150 to 200 Euros, you can of course put up such a sign way cheaper than in Germany, where someone in the building business earns 2,000 or (way) more a month. The same is true for a metal roof: You probably won't be able to get one under 10,000 Euros (or maybe more) (at least legally and for a house of similar size than a motorway gantry sign). And so on.

The price is quite plausible.


----------



## kato2k8

thun said:


> E. g. in Germany, you will hardly be able to build a house under 300,000 or 400,000 Euros.


Offtopic, but i don't agree with that. At all. Depends a lot on where in Germany you want to build it of course. In the south 150-200 grand minimum, in the north half that. Including land acquisition.



thun said:


> In China, where minimum wage is probably 150 to 200 Euros, you can of course put up such a sign way cheaper than in Germany, where someone in the building business earns 2,000 or (way) more a month.


Sign-making should be IG Metall tariff, not building. Hence €7.92 minimum wage instead of €10.70, or about €1330 per month.



thun said:


> The same is true for a metal roof: You probably won't be able to get one under 10,000 Euros (or maybe more) (at least legally and for a house of similar size than a motorway gantry sign).


True.

As for competition, iirc there's over two dozen sign making companies in Germany. And any other qualifying company in the EU can take part in the tenders too...


----------



## Surel

thun said:


> You can't compare the price level of two completely different countries like that.


I did not do that.
I just compared the price of such a sign in Czech Republic, which is even higher than in Germany and price of a house in the same country. The comparison was just to get some general idea about sensibility of such prices.


Since the morways as well the signs on them are paid by public money I dont really care what is the wage of someone working on it. *The only thing I care about is what are the costs to the government and whether the government is seeking the lowest price possible (or best price/quality ratio).*
The price of such a board in China was the manufacturer price. If we add shipping to Europe, duty, whatever, the price of board could perhaps double or tripple. You have to either compete with that, or get it from there. Add some construction costs, ok, here you pay the 2000 - 4000 euro wage per month. Even if five people were working on it for month we get maximum of 20 000 euro wage costs (absurd). The Led board price 30 m2 = 40 000 euro + shipping 40 000. Even if gantry was around 40 000 euro, ok, but it is rather lot for standardized premanufactured thing. We get on some 140 000 euro. Add some profit margin of 15 %. These numbers are rather oversized to give good buffer, but anyway:

We are now on 161 000 euro. Thats it. And thats for an electronic LED motorway gantry board.

In reality the prices are 2-x times higher and the profit margins are around 200 % or more.

I dont deny that the price is plaussible. It is. It is actually payed to the supplier. What I try to point out, that the price is absolutelly ridiculous.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ It's not only about that. European signs have to withstand harsher climates than your "average Chinese cheap [crap]". For instance, they are treated against corrosion from salt on winter months. Many signs use the latest available reflecting technology.

Many signs are equipped with traffic cameras.

They are required to be, in many areas, lead-free and also free of many compounds we deem toxic, that the Chinese don't care about there.

Also, installation of signs is meant to be minimally disruptive, meaning taking 4, 5 times longer to completely fix it on the highway as compared to a scenario in which they just shut down the highway for couple days. In Europe, you just can't do that - sending all highway traffic into a nearby county road through some old villages never meant to bear 50.000 DVC...

We do need more competition, though.


----------



## thun

@ kato: Still, you need builders to put that thing (and the gantry) up. I would be surprised if the cost of labour for the actual manufacturing of the sign would be higher than those for the works on the road.


----------



## KingNick

ChrisZwolle said:


> Sign making is a special business. Usually only a few companies do that. In the Netherlands there may be 4 or 5 sign-making businesses (regarding directional signage). Second, many people severely underestimate how large these signs are. An overhead sign for 3 lanes + exit quickly amounts to some 60 - 70 m² of metal. Metal isn't free either. Then you have to mount it across the roadway. The gantries are probably most expensive if there are no special electronics (such as motorway traffic management) required.


Sign making business is more like a daylight robbery than anything else.

They had cost explosions of 150 % when they installed new electrical overhead signs on the A 10 in Austria.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Good news, the record of decision for a 3.2 km extension of A100 in eastern Berlin has been taken. Construction should commence next year.

For those who understand German:



> *Planfeststellung für A-100-Ausbau beschlossen*
> 
> Die Planung für den umstrittenen Weiterbau der Berliner Autobahn A 100 ist einen rechtlichen Schritt weitergekommen. Die sogenannte Planfeststellung für die 3,2 Kilometer lange Strecke vom Autobahndreieck Neukölln zur Ausfahrt Treptower Park sei nun beschlossen, teilte die Senatsverwaltung für Stadtentwicklung am Donnerstag mit. Damit sei das planungsrechtliche Verfahren abgeschlossen.
> 
> In der zweiten Januarhälfte sollen der Beschluss und der Plan für zwei Wochen öffentlich ausgelegt werden. Danach kann innerhalb eines Monats beim Bundesverwaltungsgericht in Leipzig dagegen geklagt werden.
> 
> Das Autobahnstück sollte ursprünglich ab 2012 gebaut werden. Anfang Oktober beschlossen die Regierungsparteien SPD und Linke, die Entscheidung über den tatsächlichen Baubeginn auf die Zeit nach der Abgeordnetenhauswahl im September 2011 zu verschieben. Der heftige Konflikt in der Koalition über das Thema sollte so vorerst vertagt werden.
> 
> Die Planung, also Detailarbeiten wie Vermessungen, Sicherung der Grundstücke und Ingenieurstätigkeiten, geht unterdessen weiter. Ob das Autobahnstück jemals gebaut wird, ist derzeit völlig offen. Das Thema wird in Koalitionsverhandlungen nach der Wahl im September eine wichtige Rolle spielen.
> 
> http://www.rbb-online.de/nachrichten/politik/2011_01/a_100__planfeststellung.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The German roads are extremely icy at the moment, which caused a large accident on the A8 Autobahn near Augsburg. A trucks seems to have plummeted into a bus. At least 30 injured.


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> Good news, the record of decision for a 3.2 km extension of A100 in eastern Berlin has been taken. Construction should commence next year.


Map?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Approximately:


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Approximately:


Well... that's it:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.4772&lon=13.4617&zoom=13&layers=M
including a 385m 8-lane tunnel between Dreieck Neukölln and Sonnenallee:


----------



## mgk920

Thanx! That's kind of what I thought that this project was.

Mike


----------



## Mateusz

Cost ? My estaimate is about few hundred millions of EUR


----------



## kato2k8

420 million iirc


----------



## pmaciej7

x-type said:


> do you maybe know the speed limit in the loop?


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

ChrisZwolle said:


> Good news, the record of decision for a 3.2 km extension of A100 in eastern Berlin has been taken. Construction should commence next year.
> 
> For those who understand German:





ChrisZwolle said:


> Approximately:


^^EXCELLENT!!!:banana:

A better map.  ("16 BA" is the new extension)


----------



## mgk920

^^ Thanx.

Is the plan to eventually complete an A100 'ring' in Berlin?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Prime Minister of Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) David McAllister wants to widen the A2 between Hannover and Braunschweig to 8 lanes. This section carries excess truck traffic up to 30,000 trucks per day. However, it is not easy considering some bridges would need to be reconstructed. 

Article in German:
http://www.haz.de/Hannover/Aus-der-Stadt/Uebersicht/Achtspurige-A2-bei-Hannover-schwer-realisierbar


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

mgk920 said:


> ^^ Thanx.
> 
> Is the plan to eventually complete an A100 'ring' in Berlin?
> 
> Mike


Hello Mike,

it is not planned to complete an A100 ring in Berlin. According to the city government there is no need for such an inner ring. 
The long-term plan is to extend the A100 to the street "Frankfurter Allee". You can see it on the map I have posted above in my last post (16 BA + 17 BA). 
BA means "Bauabschnitt" = construction stage.
The article which ChrisZwolle posted is about the 16 BA which will connect the A100 to the street "Am Treptower Park" (see map). The construction of 17 BA to "Frankfurter Allee" should start after the completition of 16 BA (in 6-8 years). 

Yours faithfully,
Michael



*EDIT:*
A map of already completed (blue) and planned (red) road infrastructure in Berlin
(note: A100 extension: 16BA+17BA)
Senate Department for Urban Development


----------



## pmaciej7

90 pictures of Dreieck Spreewald: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=70703919&postcount=2105 & next posts.


----------



## Jeroen669

Yesterday, I drove at the roadworks on the A59 near Duisburg. It must have been the lowest limit I've ever seen on an german autobahn: 40km/h. :nuts:


----------



## kato2k8

Plenty of 40 km/h at very tight offramps, which technically are still Autobahn parts. Couple of them on the A5, for example.

Lowest speed limit on a B road i know of is 20 km/h btw. Permanent. B3 within Heidelberg.


----------



## g.spinoza

20 kph? Does that lay on a minefield?


----------



## kato2k8

g.spinoza said:


> 20 kph? Does that lay on a minefield?


It's an intentional measure to dissuade people from using the B3 in that section. 

There's a parallel 2+2 road branching off right at that 20 km/h part. The city has been wanting the B3 to be officially rerouted via that 2+2 road for the past 40 years, but for certain reasons (such as a US Army HQ...) that's not possible. The 20 km/h section is a recent rebuild to move more traffic onto the 2+2 road, which before the rebuild already swallowed 80% of the north-south traffic on that route.

Of course technically parts of the city government really want the B3 to be merged with the A5 along Heidelberg (a 6-km 100 km/h section with constant traffic jams), but the federal government doesn't really see it that way


----------



## ChrisZwolle

B9 near Kleve:


----------



## Attus

I drove Viborg - Koldin - Hamburg - Bremen - Hannover - Würzburg - Passau - Linz - Wien - Budapest some weeks ago. I twas strange that on A7 in Germany in the section of Niedersachsen Region a speed limit of 80 was signed through dozens of kilometres due to bad surface but after passing the border to Hessen, the 80 limit signs disappeared although the road itself is not any way better than in Niedersachsen


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Different road authorities.


----------



## goschio

Parts of the urban A661 motorway in Frankfurt might be covered (Einhausung) in the near future. This will eliminate noise and pollution from the area, create new park space and new residential developments can be built. Estimated costs are between 100 and 150 mio Euros. 



















source: http://www.stadtplanungsamt-frankfurt.de/show.php?ID=8993&psid=5591016b5b30fca73d0d8190ca34f19d


----------



## mgk920

Can I safely assume that any plans to connect the A66 through that area are now history?

Mike


----------



## goschio

mgk920 said:


> Can I safely assume that any plans to connect the A66 through that area are now history?
> 
> Mike


No not at all. The connection of A661 and A66 goes ahead as planed. 

The connection will be before the covering (Einhausung).









http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=51833571&postcount=2554


----------



## mgk920

^^
I was mainly thinking about the connection to the part of the A66 to the west. Examining Google aerial images of that area shows a well-defined clear ROW over much of its likely routing.

It looks like a glaring gap in the area's transport network, too.

Mike


----------



## goschio

Only know of the direct connection between A661 and A66 (red line). Not sure about the remaining route (blue line). Motorway construction in urban areas is not so popular anymore so I doubt we will see that anytime soon. It would require one massive tunnel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The LKW-maut brings enough additional money to pay for these luxury measures. 

Before the LKW-maut, Germany was part of the eurovignette toll system, which is like € 8 per day with unlimited mileage. Right now trucks already exceed that if they drive more than 30 kilometers in Germany. So the additional funding is HUGE.


----------



## mgk920

goschio said:


> Only know of the direct connection between A661 and A66 (red line). Not sure about the remaining route (blue line). Motorway construction in urban areas is not so popular anymore so I doubt we will see that anytime soon. It would require one massive tunnel.


In the above image, A66(east) will connect on the end of the curve at the south end of the shown roadworks while from what I can tell, A66(west) would connect with a 'Y' interchange right where the 'A661' shield is on that image. You can trace a clear ROW from there westward to where it meets that major east-west street.

Yes, it likely would require some interesting tunneling.

Mike


----------



## HAWC1506

Quick question, does anyone know how often road markings are re-painted for the Autobahn? Seems like with wider markings and the use of plastic markings, they can hold up for longer than the ones in the U.S.

Side note: Washington State repaints white markings every year, and yellow markings every two years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Roßfeldhöhenringstraße*

A panoramic toll road near Berchtesgaden in extreme southeastern Germany.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Wow... I'm planning to go there in few weeks


----------



## Positronn

The view is astonishing, but is that wooden guard-rails? Is it safe?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's a panoramic route with no function for traffic. There are no trucks and most cars will travel at relatively low speeds. It is a ring road, and serves no towns or other routes. It is also a private toll road.


----------



## Moravian

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's a panoramic route with no function for traffic. There are no trucks and most cars will travel at relatively low speeds. It is a ring road, and serves no towns or other routes. It is also a private toll road.



Yes, it is really something very special in Germany - private tolled road and just at the Austrian border. The fact is that there are more attracting places with great countryside in the region of Berchtesgaden (well, in spite of the fact that it is not so easy to talk about the history of those places) - so called Eagle Nest and its road from Obersalzberg (but usually closed till May!!!), Koenigsee Lake and the whole National Park there etc. IMO, the only trip - Berchtesgaden - Obersalzberg - Hallein/Austria is definitely very attracting. The key condition there might be the good weather....


----------



## Palance

Toll in Germany? Never heard of that.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are also two toll tunnels in Northern Germany;

* Herrentunnel in Lübeck (B75)
* Warnowtunnel in Rostock (B105)


----------



## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are also two toll tunnels in Northern Germany;
> 
> * Herrentunnel in Lübeck (B75)
> * Warnowtunnel in Rostock (B105)


i didn't know for Herrentunnel. is that all, or there are some more Mautstations in Germany?


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Positronn said:


> The view is astonishing, but is that wooden guard-rails? Is it safe?


It's very likely that the guard-rails are actually made of steel but covered with wood not to ruin the atmosphere. This type of guard-rail has been used in Estonia at least once and it isn't less safe than ordninary guard-rails. One example that I found on the web: http://barriersafety.ie/products/mixed-wood-steel-guardrail/ .


----------



## nerdly_dood

Looks like a German took a drive on the Blue Ridge Parkway and got some ideas... 

Looks like they'll serve pretty much the same purpose, except the Blue Ridge Parkway isn't a ring road, it is mostly toll-free (it continues past its northern end as Skyline Drive through the Shenandoah National Park, with tolls), and it is maintained by the National Park Service. It also has a spur to the west to allow access to Roanoke.

As for the wooden guardrails, you should be glad that they're actually that tall. On the BRP they're about 20cm tall.


----------



## Baiazid

Positronn said:


> The view is astonishing, but is that wooden guard-rails? Is it safe?


Safe? What do you plan to do when you get there? :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A49 Kassel - Gemünden (A5)*

Construction began today for a 12 kilometer extension of A12 near Schwalmstadt in the state of Hessen. This is the most expensive section of the entire A49 project at a cost of € 205 million or € 17 million per kilometer.

The next section is Schwalmstadt - Stadtallendorf, length 13 kilometer, cost € 105 million (€ 8 million per km). The final section is Stadtallendorf - Gemünden (A5) length 17 kilometer, cost € 216 million (€ 12.7 million per km).

A record of decision for these two sections is expected in 2011. Whether construction can commence soon depends on federal funding.


----------



## piotr71

I like this _wir bauen fuer sie._


----------



## g.spinoza

piotr71 said:


> I like this _wir bauen fuer sie._


They put this in Italy also: "Stiamo lavorando per voi" :lol:


----------



## muc

> is that all, or there are some more Mautstations in Germany?


There are in fact several smaller roads in the Alps with Maut (toll). Usually in private ownership as far as I know.

Some examples that come to my mind are:

Brannenburg - Sudelfeld
Rottach-Egern - Valepp
Vorderriss - Wallgau
Klais - Elmau

I am sure there are more.


----------



## thun

Yes, those Bavarian mountain roads are operated by private owners. Another example is the road in the Fastenoy valley south of Oberstdorf (it's Germanys southernmost road).

On "normal" roads tolls were introduced as a PPP model to finance special structures (tunnels and bridges, usually), you'll find some of these in Northern Germany (e. g. the Warnetunnel in Rostock and the Travetunnel at Lübeck).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

PPP projects can also be financed using shadow tolls. This means the government uses tax revenue to pay off private investors. They did this in the Netherlands in the 90's. This means the users are paying the tolls via the regular motor vehicle taxes and not via physical toll collection.

It can be a useful solution to execute large public works where the full amount of money is not available at once.


----------



## thun

Another German model is to pay the investor back by transferring the income of truck tolls on the road he invests in to him. That is done e. g. on the A8 between Augsburg and Munich.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I have to add that the financial risks can be quite high if you use shadow tolls. For example when traffic volumes are much higher than projected (what often happens). Which means the government has to allocate more money to shadow toll financing than budgeted.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

piotr71 said:


> I like this _wir bauen fuer sie._


Sounds like a bit of Communist Propaganda there... :lol:



g.spinoza said:


> They put this in Italy also: "Stiamo lavorando per voi" :lol:


Are they trying to make you believe that they really ARE working for you, rather than catering to "Special Interest Groups"?


----------



## Sarcasm

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A49 Kassel - Gemünden (A5)*
> 
> Construction began today for a 12 kilometer extension of A12 near Schwalmstadt in the state of Hessen. This is the most expensive section of the entire A49 project at a cost of € 205 million or € 17 million per kilometer.
> 
> The next section is Schwalmstadt - Stadtallendorf, length 13 kilometer, cost € 105 million (€ 8 million per km). The final section is Stadtallendorf - Gemünden (A5) length 17 kilometer, cost € 216 million (€ 12.7 million per km).
> 
> A record of decision for these two sections is expected in 2011. Whether construction can commence soon depends on federal funding.


From the same article that Chris posted the picture from. 
No commencement of road work celebration is complete without some crazy environmentalists & eco-terrorists. Below we can see a left wing communist Marjana Schott protesting during the celebration. I can only wish these kind of eco-nuts got hit by a bus!:lol:


----------



## mgk920

thun said:


> Yes, those Bavarian mountain roads are operated by private owners. Another example is the road in the Fastenoy valley south of Oberstdorf (it's Germanys southernmost road).
> 
> On "normal" roads tolls were introduced as a PPP model to finance special structures (tunnels and bridges, usually), you'll find some of these in Northern Germany (e. g. the Warnetunnel in Rostock and the Travetunnel at Lübeck).


The first other example of a private 'pleasure drive' toll road in Germany that I thought of is the Nürburgring.

:cheers1:

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*

Another 5 km extension will commence tomorrow between the village of Hasselbach and the town of Waldkappel. Remarkable is that the anti-car brigade BUND dropped its objections because they didn't feel they would be able to frustrate the project after a previous section has been given the green light last year. 

The Germans also claim this 64 kilometer motorway is the most expensive in the world at € 1.4 billion (€ 22 million per km).

Which is highly unlikely because I can think of at least two projects in the Netherlands being more expensive (the 63 km widening of motorways near Amsterdam at € 4.4 billion (€ 70 million per km, almost 3.5 times more expensive than this one)) (and the A4 between Delft and Rotterdam which will cost € 800 million for 7 kilometers (€ 114 million per km, over 5 times more expensive)) I doubt if we should be proud of that, but the Germans at least do not have their facts right in this matter. 

http://www.hna.de/nachrichten/hessen/a-44-ausbau-spatenstich-1170012.html


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Germans also claim...


A little local newspaper claim...



ChrisZwolle said:


> The Germans also claim this 64 kilometer motorway is the most expensive in the world at € 1.4 billion (€ 22 million per km).
> 
> Which is highly unlikely because I can think of at least two projects in the Netherlands being more expensive (the 63 km widening of motorways near Amsterdam at € 4.4 billion (€ 70 million per km, almost 3.5 times more expensive than this one)) (and the A4 between Delft and Rotterdam which will cost € 800 million for 7 kilometers (€ 114 million per km, over 5 times more expensive)) I doubt if we should be proud of that, but the Germans at least do not have their facts right in this matter.


You don't have to look at the Randstad for that.
The next part of the A100 in Berlin is 3,2 km long an will cost 420 million EUR (131 million per km)...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder why newspapers make claims like that that are obviously not based on facts. Maybe their world does not extend beyond North Hessen.


----------



## Morsue

Stockholm's Södra Länken tunnel system cost 7,9 billion SEK, or around 900 million EUR in 2004, for 6 kms of motorway. Construction is ongoing on Norra Länken which will cost 9 billion SEK or 1 billion EUR for 4 kms of motorway. My point is just that motorways in tunnels, and especially in urban areas, tend to be the most expensive.


----------



## Suburbanist

*B7 Augsburg - Peiting*

This is part of a road trip I took last weekend. This is B7, a 2x2 motorway until Landsberg am Lech and a expressway from there southward, with some awful low speed limits near Augsburg.




















Augsburg, speed limit 60 km/h









Koningsburg









A96 interchange


















2+1 alternate setting near Kisnau









Now it becomes a regular road with crossings like this:









Bridge over Lech. There is a nive vantage point/unserviced rest area there:


















Journey ends at Peiting, where I took B23, a designated tourist route called Romantische Straße. B7 is also part of that route, except for the bypasses.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Deutsche Alpenstraß3*

I drove on some sectors of the eastern Deutsche Alpenstraße, though not continuously.

South of Rottenbuch




































Near Obernau, approaching Garmisch-Partenkirschen


----------



## Suburbanist

*B13, B307 (another sector of Deutsche Apenstraße)*

This is a route following two valleys between Flech and Tatzelvurm. It follows, closely, two lakes in between: Sylvenstein and Tergem. A small part of it cuts through Austria before the final ascent to Achenpaß summit.

Before reaching Gmund am Tegermsee I took a detour via St2075 and rejoined the Deutsche Alpenstraße at Hausham.
































































"Traffic calmed" mountain climb near Bayenschzell, limit 50 km/h. It is absolutely ridiculous to have the road "narrowed" to build a bike lane in a very steep mountain pass totally out of reach for cyclists anyway.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Sudelfeldstraße toll road*

This is a private leisure toll road branching off B307 to Milbing 










Actual toll collection is done only at a small booth near Milbing.


----------



## Zagor666

A sign from Dortmund,listed all the partner cities :cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

Something you can notice in that new junction is that it is still without grown vegetation (for obvious reasons). No other big country, TTEOMK, plants so many trees around junctions and interchanges.

I was discussing this with Chris: it is good in a certain way because it gives a "mystery" impression when you exit or take a ramp surrounded by trees, but on the other hand it blocks any view of viaducts, flyovers and ramps.


----------



## x-type

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> Look at post #3206 in this thread. This section of the A4 will be soon closed and reopened as a brand new stretch further north.


ok, nhf, but why the hell do you think that i have asked that?!


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
I don´t know. :?
You had a question and I provided you with the link to the right post. :dunno:




Anyway:
The widening to six lanes of a 10km long stretch of the A7 near Göttingen is now finished. :banana:

*



A 7: Verkehrsfreigabe des sechsstreifigen Ausbaus zwischen der Anschlussstelle Göttingen und nördlich der Anschlussstelle Göttingen-Nord

Click to expand...

*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Finally  Another old Reichsautobahn widened to 2x3 lanes! 

I wonder why the construction time is so long though. Even greenfield construction of a motorway goes about 2 years faster than the widening of an existing motorway...


----------



## Zagor666

Today i made a motorcycle tour thru Eifel,make some 150 pictures :cheers: Here are 4 from the A61 motorway between Erftstadt and Rheinbach


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A mega traffic jam yesterday on the Autobahn A12 east of Berlin. A combination of a massive gastarbeiter exodus to Poland, a severe truck accident and roadworks on Polish A2 just after the border caused a 50 kilometer traffic jam in the eastbound direction. 










Today many Germans again find themselves in long traffic jams. Nearly all NL-bound routes are jammed (90 minute delays on A3-A12 towards Arnhem), and most coast-bound routes are also jammed.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I was surprised to find the A95 toward Garmisch rather empty yesterday... but on the other hand the Italian Brennerautobahn, from the Austrian border till Bolzano-Bozen was full of German-licensed cars... the first Italian car, beside mine, I encountered was in Chiusa-Klausen,50 km from the border...


----------



## Zagor666

Kreuzberg - Unterkrälingen,there are not only motorways in Germany,they have some beutiful roads too and this is only about 30mins away from the major city of Cologne:cheers:































Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## bogdymol

Zagor666 said:


> Kreuzberg - Unterkrälingen,there are not only motorways in Germany,they have some beutiful roads too and this is only about 30mins away from the major city of Cologne:cheers:


This is a nice road


----------



## x-type

Zagor666 said:


>


this table below (with brands) is the thing that i cannot stop praising on D motorways, especially coffee brands


----------



## tall_dreams

^^
Simply Breathtaking. Wish I had a house somewhere on this road so that I could travel along it everyday.


----------



## Ni3lS

I did a small roadtrip to Cologne on sunday. I think I might get a speeding ticket in the mail. So unfair, I think it was 80km's of no speed limit and then 500m/1km of 120 km/h. The sign was obviously hidden behind trees or something because otherwise I would've seen it. Nice lasergun all set up and I was driving something like 126 km/h. At the time, there were like 3 cars passing me. I thought I saw the red laser flash for a minute but I'm not sure. Anyway, pretty sad move IMO. Can anyone tell me how much the fine will approx. be? The navigation system [Tomtom] didn't recognize the lasergun and also didn't recognize the reduced speed limit. Meeh so unfair


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Roadside signs are always above TomTom.


----------



## keber

How could Tom-tom recognize laser gun?


----------



## Zagor666

If the speed limit was 120km/h they would never ever put the laser on 126km/h cause it would make 200pictures in 3minutes - and if you can prove that the sign was covered by anything you have good cards :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A video about the new motorway that will connect the A61 with the Dutch A74 near Kaldenkirchen / Venlo.






As you may have read in the Dutch motorway thread, the Dutch Council of State dismissed all appeals against the construction of the A74 on the Dutch side, which means construction can proceed as planned. The opening will hopefully be in early - mid 2012.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A215 Dreieck Bordesholm - Kiel*

This photo set covers the A215 Autobahn from Dreieck Bordesholm to Kiel. The motorway is 17 kilometers long and is located in far Northern Germany.

1.

IMG_6540 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

IMG_6541 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

IMG_6543 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

IMG_6544 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

IMG_6545 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

IMG_6546 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

IMG_6547 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

IMG_6548 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

IMG_6549 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

IMG_6550 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

IMG_6552 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

IMG_6553 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Post #3240


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Heiligenhafen - Lübeck - Hamburg*

This photo set follows A1 southbound from its northern terminus at Heiligenhafen towards Hamburg, covering a distance of just over 120 kilometers. Notable issues are the short tunnel near Gremersdorf (Vmax=80), the large number of exits north of Lübeck, the lack of shoulders around Scharbeutz and the six lanes between Lübeck and Hamburg. A1 is not extremely busy, and the capacity is usually sufficient.

route:









1.

IMG_7076 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

IMG_7077 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

IMG_7078 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

IMG_7079 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

IMG_7080 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

IMG_7081 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

IMG_7082 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

IMG_7084 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

IMG_7085 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

IMG_7086 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

IMG_7088 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

IMG_7089 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

IMG_7090 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

IMG_7091 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

IMG_7092 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

IMG_7093 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

IMG_7094 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

IMG_7095 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

IMG_7096 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

IMG_7097 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A25 Hamburg*

The A25 is a short motorway located nearly entirely in the state of Hamburg. It is a short commuter motorway for the eastern neighborhoods of Hamburg. This is the least densely populated district of Hamburg. It serves almost no through traffic, so traffic volumes are rather low, starting at 51 000 vehicles near A1, and dropping to 28 000 vehicles near the eastern terminus at Geesthacht.

Map:









1.

IMG_7190 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

IMG_7191 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

IMG_7192 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

IMG_7193 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

IMG_7194 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

IMG_7195 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

IMG_7196 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

IMG_7197 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

IMG_7198 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

IMG_7199 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

IMG_7200 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

IMG_7201 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

IMG_7202 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

IMG_7203 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

IMG_7204 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

IMG_7205 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

IMG_7206 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

IMG_7207 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ea1969

Shouldn't the 'ahead' directions and the road numbers on the last two pictures be in yellow?


----------



## flierfy

ea1969 said:


> Shouldn't the 'ahead' directions and the road numbers on the last two pictures be in yellow?


Well, this panel is actually yellow. It's just that the colour faded away and appears to be rather white these days.


----------



## Matz32Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DsYFuuALA





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Fg2AWfZt4


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## lambersart2005

...so sad they decided to adjust the hessian signage to the federal standard... I loved the arrows showing down to the lanes. I think by now they have changed all remaining signs or are there still some of the "good" old ones? Sorry for the bad quality of the pics, by the


----------



## Xorcist

[/URL]


----------



## Mateusz

Xorcist said:


> [/URL]







Corrected


----------



## Matz32Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESdqjVNpvhU


----------



## 909

A few shots of the A46 from Wuppertal towards Düsseldorf.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I made a video of B76 through Kiel a couple of weeks ago. The B76 is an urban expressway with a high exit density and traverses through the Kiel metropolitan area. Quite an interesting road.


----------



## Aphelion

Nice video as always, Chris. I have actually travelled on that road twice, and I kind of wonder why no part of the Kiel ring road has an Autobahn number.


----------



## g.spinoza

You mastered the craft of youtube video editing and superimposing. Very nice video indeed.

EDIT: Chris, I'm sure you told us before but can't find it, which camera model do you use and how did you anchor it to the dashboard?


----------



## HAWC1506

Does anyone know about ASIM Traffic detectors by xtralis? Specifically, this one?

http://xtralis.com/product_view.cfm?product_id=20


----------



## hofburg

He uses Toshiba Camileo S20.


----------



## HAWC1506

What kind of traffic sensors are used in Germany? Do they use induction loops like the U.S. and U.K.?


----------



## kato2k8

Depends on where of the network, both induction loops - about 6,000 - and radar, infrared or laser sensors (together: "SES", stationary collection systems - about 4,000 on the network) are used. Induction loops mostly in urbanized areas, the newer SES systems on the highways connecting them. The purpose is also slightly different, the induction loops measure overall traffic load of sections primarily while the SES systems usually just measure speed and frequency on the leftmost lane.

The truck toll control system additionally uses infrared 3D camera systems on its ~300 automatic detection systems.


----------



## g.spinoza

I don't know if it has been said in the thread but they're reconstructing part (or all) of the Kreuz Neufahrn interchange between A9 and A92... I passed there yesterday on my way to the airport, and I saw signs stating that the reconstruction will be complete by December 2011.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, they're building a new fly-over for traffic from Deggendorf / Airport to München.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, they're building a new fly-over for traffic from Deggendorf / Airport to München.


Yes, now cominf from the airport going towards München one has to drive through a rather tight cloverleaf...


----------



## muc

> Yes, now cominf from the airport going towards München one has to drive through a rather tight cloverleaf...


Add to that the fact that this cloverleaf has 2 lanes because of heavy traffic. The traffic coming from the A9 from Nuernberg for Deggendorf has to yield all the traffic on the cloverleaf with no braking lane. Same for the traffic from A92 from Munich going onto the A9 to Munich. This is a quite unusual configuration and has been the cause of many bad accidents.
I drive on that cloverleaf daily and had myself a couple of near-misses with trucks from Nuernberg running over the yield sign into the cloverleaf at nearly full speed.

That fly-over will improve safety a lot.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Thanks muc. I'm not sure but I think that the ramp from Deggendorf to Nürnberg has been also recently changed. I drove there yesterday again but I didn't have the chance to look carefully. It seems to me that the ramp entrance has been moved few hundreds of meters ahead. Can you confirm this?


----------



## mapman:cz

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Thanks muc. I'm not sure but I think that the ramp from Deggendorf to Nürnberg has been also recently changed. I drove there yesterday again but I didn't have the chance to look carefully. It seems to me that the ramp entrance has been moved few hundreds of meters ahead. Can you confirm this?


It has been rerouted already a few months ago, if you mean the ramp on the right side of this photo, compared to the one closed: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/49093517


----------



## HAWC1506

Is there a specific purpose to the curbs on the Autobahn? And why is it there on some sections and not others?


----------



## flierfy

HAWC1506 said:


> Is there a specific purpose to the curbs on the Autobahn? And why is it there on some sections and not others?


Kerbs are placed where surface water cannot or must not trickle into the soil beside the carriageway.


----------



## HAWC1506

flierfy said:


> Kerbs are placed where surface water cannot or must not trickle into the soil beside the carriageway.


Does that affect the drainage capabilities? It seems like water would stay on the roadway around the curbs.


----------



## HAWC1506

Alright, I would like a debate:

Which do you prefer and why: Parallel merge/diverge slip roads or tapered merge/diverge slip roads?

I'm going to post the same question in the U.S. Interstates thread to compare responses. Feel free to discuss in both threads.


----------



## ed110220

g.spinoza said:


> I don't know if it has been said in the thread but they're reconstructing part (or all) of the Kreuz Neufahrn interchange between A9 and A92... I passed there yesterday on my way to the airport, and I saw signs stating that the reconstruction will be complete by December 2011.


You can see on Openstreetmap what they are doing: Kreuz Neufarhn

I think the use of a semi-directional ramp to replace a loop is quite a common way of upgrading a cloverleaf (is there a name for it?) but I haven't seen one of the right-hand movements (or left-hand, in countries that drive on the left) rebuilt like this, but it is a rather odd ramp as it curves in the middle round the loop, rather than just at each end. There's also some nice braiding being added too.


----------



## seem

Some pictures of German autobahns which I took 2 months ago when I went to Essen for a short trip -


----------



## darko06

At the picture no. 2 can be seen, that the right viaduct (in direction Hamburg) had carried the entire Autobahn before widening. The left viaduct has been built when the Autobahn was widened from 2+2 to 3+3.


----------



## muc

> Alright, I would like a debate:
> 
> Which do you prefer and why: Parallel merge/diverge slip roads or tapered merge/diverge slip roads?
> 
> I'm going to post the same question in the U.S. Interstates thread to compare responses. Feel free to discuss in both threads.


I guess many people here don't even know what is a tapered slip road. At least I didn't know before looking into the US thread.

I prefer parallel acceleration/deceleration lanes by far. They allow you to match your speed with the traffic on the right lane of the highway before merging and to slow down before you enter the off-ramp. So I think they are much safer especially where high speeds are allowed.
I don't think you'll find tapered slip roads on modern Autobahns.


----------



## g.spinoza

ed110220 said:


> You can see on Openstreetmap what they are doing: Kreuz Neufarhn


I do not understand what is the purpose of the lane in construction connecting directly Eching Ost exit with the Kreuz...


----------



## Wilhem275

The purpose is to avoid conflicts between the Eching->A92(West) flux and A92(East)->A9(South) flux. Eching Ost is too close to che Kreuz, you would have a very short distance for lane choice (for German standards, of course).

You build an overpass to reduce the need of changing lanes, in major junctions it is a good practice.
The same reason why they're upgrading all major cloverleaf. The aim is to have only bifurcations where you choose your destination, and then you never cross any other path until you merge on the last road.

Best example is the famous Frankfurter Kreux:
http://goo.gl/maps/Pks0

You can see that all the interchange arms overpass the others: if you look closely, following a direction from one road to the last one, you'll have almost no need to change lane.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Thanks!


----------



## g.spinoza

Can someone explain to me what do blue signs with U## mean? These ones:


----------



## Wilhem275

They are detours, each with its own number. If I remember correctly, the U stands for Umstieg/Umstiegen.

Pretty useful to have a route number also for detours!


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Do you mean detour as in roadworks? I don't think so, because they are permanent and very common.


----------



## Christophorus

U=Umleitung=detour

very useful in case of traffic jams. Just follow the U signage and you will get back to the Autobahn.


----------



## bozata90

No, these detours (Umleitungen) are pre-created. The idea is that when there is a congestion on your way and you know where approximately, you will have the opportunity to exit the motorway before the queue starts. Then, you just have to follow the "U" signs with the number posted at the Ausfahrt, where you have left the autobahn. These signs will lead you to the next exit in your direction, where, supposedly, there will be no queue.


----------



## -Pino-

Supposedly indeed. Most of the time, the U-route cannot handle the load of the motorists that exit the Autobahn in an attempt to bypass the queue. But if a motorway really gets blocked, there is use in the U-numbers. For the motorists and for the road authorities, that do not need to take any step at that stage to guide the motorist over the deviation.


----------



## Wilhem275

Christophorus said:


> U=Umleitung=detour


Thanks  Umstieg is most used in railways.

As I use to say, I don't speak German, I only speak Eisenbahndeutsch


----------



## Penn's Woods

seem said:


> Some pictures of German autobahns which I took 2 months ago when I went to Essen for a short trip -


On these signs, is the distance shown for "Autobahn 44* Dortmund" (*If 44 is the number - can't quite make it out) the distance to Dortmund or to the junction with 44?


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> On these signs, is the distance shown for "Autobahn 44* Dortmund" (*If 44 is the number - can't quite make it out) the distance to Dortmund or to the junction with 44?


Should be the distance to the city. If they were to sign the distance to the intersection they would have put the name of the intersection and the symbol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Vielen Dank.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^The 44 is the motorway number and the distance is 208km, going through autobahn 44


----------



## 909

Well, I might trow in some pictures as well. 

These shots were taken on the A6 and A81 somewhere between Sinsheim towards Stuttgart.


A6 by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6  by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 by Chris Wevers, on Flickr

The Rhein-Neckar-Arena in Sinsheim at the horizon.


A6 | Rhein-Neckar-Arena by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 by Chris Wevers, on Flickr

Notice the Sinsheim Auto & Technik Museum on the left.


A6 | Sinsheim by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 | Sinsheim by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 | Sinsheim Auto & Technik Museum by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 | Neckarsulm by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6  by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6  by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 / A81 | Kreuz Weinsberg by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 / A81 | Kreuz Weinsberg by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A6 / A81 | Kreuz Weinsberg by Chris Wevers, on Flickr

The A81 near Stuttgart.


A81 by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A81 | Stuttgart-Feuerbach by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A81  by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A81 by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


A81 | Leonberg  by Chris Wevers, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Very good pictures, you must clean the windshield a lot, right? Sometimes you have to clean it every 40 minutes to take good pictures.


----------



## 909

Thanks, you are right about cleaning the windshields. After some driving the whole front of the car, including the windshield has become one big mass grave for bugs. So, at every stop I clean the windows, not only for taking pictures but especially for a clear view.


----------



## edis_mumin

Nice shots, nice highway, and very nice weather for driving!


----------



## kubam4a1

She's quite busy. Nice photos :cheers:.


----------



## Ni3lS

Thanks for the photos, I'm going to drive the exact same route all the way down to the border of Switzerland in about a month


----------



## DSzumaher

The longest beltway in Europe in shaking view.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

DSzumaher said:


> The longest beltway in the world


Used to be. There are longer beltways nowadays. For instance, the G1501 ring road of Shanghai is 209 kilometers long.


----------



## DSzumaher

Ups... I'm sorry.


----------



## CNGL

^^ And it isn't even the longest beltway in Europe. The M25 in London (Part E13, E15 and E30) is some 200 kilometers long.


----------



## DSzumaher

M25 - 117 mi - 188 km
A10 - 122 mi - 196 km


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The M25 is completed by the 10 kilometer long A282 at the Dartford Crossing, which is basically a motorway-like road and functions as one, making the London Orbital 198 kilometers long.


----------



## CNGL

So British M25+A282 (That is E15) > German A10


----------



## DSzumaher

M25 was a mental leap, because I see M25 (111 mi) + A282 (6 mi) = 117 mi


----------



## cinxxx

Does this even matter (2km)?
Only to put the Germans below first place...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The arms race of motorway distances? 

Still we beat Berlin by 2km


----------



## g.spinoza

My opinion as a non-wealthy, i.e. non-owner-of-a-sports-car Italian driver who's driven 25 thousand km on German Autobahnen in a little more than six months.

I personally think that such high speeds are absolutely reckless, always. You cannot just rely on your car and on the characteristics of the road. You have to care about other people. Sometimes for kilometers and kilometers, on a two-lane motorway, I cannot get rid of the guy doing 100 in front of me because a column of smart-asses doing 200 is taking the passing lane only for themselves.
I remember one time doing 160 on the A95 towards Garmisch, my little car can't go faster, I was overtaking on the passing lane when three BMW, in a column, arrived from behind at relativistic speed (I think they actually went back in time). They hit the brake like mad, seriously risking crashing into me and into one another, just to show that they are wealthy and masculine to drive at high speed.

If this isn't being reckless, I don't know what is.


----------



## hofburg

IMO all 2 lanes old-crappy autobahns should be limited 120 kmh, only 3 lanes+ without a limit.


----------



## Fuzzy Llama

^^ And in my experience, that's exactly what Germans are doing. In almost all substandard Autobahns I've travelled (and I agree that it's not much, but I wan to think that they are representative) there was either permanent or variable speed limit, the only exception being the Inntal Autobahn with its pre-war standard and (if I remember correctly) no speed limit at all.

On the other hand, sign "120 km/h" with added "next 100 km" plate looks SO depressing, especially when travelling off-peak...


----------



## g.spinoza

Fuzzy Llama said:


> ^^ And in my experience, that's exactly what Germans are doing. In almost all substandard Autobahns I've travelled (and I agree that it's not much, but I wan to think that they are representative) there was either permanent or variable speed limit, the only exception being the Inntal Autobahn with its pre-war standard and (if I remember correctly) no speed limit at all.


A95 is two-lane and has no speed limits for 90% of its legnth (ironically, 80 km/h limit - ridiculous - is on part of its 3-lane stretch); also A3 between Passau and Deggendorf is two-lane and no limits, and so is A92 between Deggendorf and Freising.

And all of these are only in Bayern.

And believe me, Germans run like madmen everywhere. Time of them sticking to the limit are past.


----------



## Attus

A6 is very strange: no limit in 2×2 sections but speed limits of 120 in 2×3 sections in a very coherent way. 

Actually the most of German cars drive about 120-150 km/h.


----------



## Road_UK

Attus said:


> A6 is very strange: no limit in 2×2 sections but speed limits of 120 in 2×3 sections in a very coherent way.
> 
> Actually the most of German cars drive about 120-150 km/h.


Same on the A93 between Rosenheim and Kufstein. No limits going Kufstein bound, and 130 km/h limit going the other way. May have something to do with the poor quality of the road surface.

Edit: I haven't read what you wrote properly, but never mind... speed limits are still in force going Rosenheim bound..


----------



## flierfy

hofburg said:


> IMO all 2 lanes old-crappy autobahns should be limited 120 kmh, only 3 lanes+ without a limit.


There is no need for inflexible rules like this. Speed limit are applied where it is necessary. That depends on various design parameter, such as gradients, lane and shoulder width, junction design and junction spacing, as well as traffic volume.

The reason why wider motorway are more likely to be restricted is the same reason why these motorways are so wide in the first place: great traffic volumes.


----------



## bogdymol

When I drove on A8 (AT border -> A93) I noticed that there was no speed limit, but the traffic was very high (sometimes I coudn't even get into the second line to pass a slower driver because of the traffic). Also, the autobahn is sub-standard with no hard shoulder, quite high slopes and many curves with small radius + many entrance+exits with a very short merging lanes.

Just look at this entrance on the autobahn... no merging lane if you want to go to Munchen.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Your link redirects me to the general map of Europe...


----------



## bogdymol

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Your link redirects me to the general map of Europe...


Fixed it


----------



## hofburg

^I noticed that too. safety is definitely a problem on 2x2 autobahns.

anyway, here is my set of *A9 Berlin - München*.

few photos in Berlin, for a start. 


A9 Berlin 004 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 005 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 007 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 009 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 010 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 011 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 012 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 014 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 016 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 019 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 020 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 021 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 024 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 025 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 026 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 027 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 029 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 032 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 034 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 035 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 036 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 037 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 038 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 040 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

...


----------



## hofburg

A9 Berlin 041 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 042 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 044 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

13km of 2x2 with no hard shoulders


A9 Berlin 045 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 047 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 048 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 049 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 050 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 051 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 053 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 055 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 056 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 057 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 058 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 059 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 060 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 064 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 065 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 066 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

...


----------



## hofburg

A9 Berlin 067 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 068 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 069 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 071 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 076 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 077 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 078 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 081 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 082 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 083 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 086 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 097 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 101 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 103 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 107 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 109 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 115 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 116 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 118 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 119 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 122 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 123 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 127 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 128 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


A9 Berlin 132 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr

A99


A9 Berlin 139 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr


----------



## Pansori

Great report, hofburg. Thanks.
There are few things more romantic than flying on a German autobahn in the evening just after the sunset.


----------



## ABRob

bogdymol said:


> When I drove on A8 (AT border -> A93) I noticed that there was no speed limit, but the traffic was very high (sometimes I coudn't even get into the second line to pass a slower driver because of the traffic). Also, the autobahn is sub-standard with no hard shoulder, quite high slopes and many curves with small radius + many entrance+exits with a very short merging lanes.
> 
> Just look at this entrance on the autobahn... no merging lane if you want to go to Munchen.


If Munich gets the Olympic games today, A8 will be widened to 2x3 all the way to Salzburg untill 2018.
And in this case, the Garmisch region will get 4 new road tunnels untill 2018.
If not - only if there's money...


----------



## bogdymol

ABRob said:


> If Munich gets the Olympic games today, A8 will be widened to 2x3 all the way to Salzburg untill 2018.
> And in this case, the Garmisch region will get 4 new road tunnels untill 2018.
> If not - only if there's money...





> Pyeongchang, South Korea, selected to host 2018 Olympic Winter Games


cnn.com


----------



## g.spinoza

I was downtown Munich this afternoon, big screens and Olympia-related amenities around (including a bobsled rail with guys reharsing starts and a biatlon-rifle station). I guess the news wasn't given yet because everyone was cheerful and happy...


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

*Does anybody of you highway experts know if the A10 Berliner Ring is currently the longest ring road in ze world (Length: 196km)??? :dunno:

Comparison between several ring roads:*








^^
*NOTE: HOUSTON´S PLANNED RING ROAD (BLACK) :uh:*

SOURCE


----------



## Pansori

^^
The Guangzhou ring-road shown in the diagram is only the small inner (2nd smallest) ring road. There are other ring roads which seem not entirely complete but function as ring-roads nonetheless. E.g. G15+G4W Expressway which now looks like about 3/4 of a huge outer ring-road which, if completed, should be around 200km. I just wonder if they are building (or planning?) to build it?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> *Does anybody of you highway experts know if the A10 Berliner Ring is currently the longest ring road in ze world (Length: 196km)??? :dunno:
> 
> *


*

Baltimore's missing, and Indianapolis, although they're not all that big.... What are they using for Paris - the A86? Why not the Francilienne? (Yes, it's got a gap in it, but so does the A86 still, if I'm not mistaken.)*


----------



## Pansori

Also here is the Shanghai ring (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr...ddf48Bw&mra=dme&mrsp=5&sz=10&via=1,2,3,4&z=10) which seems to be around 210km long.


----------



## g.spinoza

Got back from the trip to Berlin, apparently the only picture my girlfriend was able to take, and that was not regarding wind power plants and hop fields is this one:











A93 northbound at the junction with A6.


----------



## [email protected]

Penn's Woods said:


> Baltimore's missing, and Indianapolis, although they're not all that big.... What are they using for Paris - the A86? Why not the Francilienne? (Yes, it's got a gap in it, but so does the A86 still, if I'm not mistaken.)


Yep the A86. It's now completed btw.


----------



## flierfy

[email protected] said:


> Yep the A86. It's now completed btw.


You are either way off-topic or completely wrong as there is just a small section the A 86 that has ever been built.


----------



## Penn's Woods

flierfy said:


> You are either way off-topic or completely wrong as there is just a small section the A 86 that has ever been built.


The French A86. We were talking about that graphic about ring roads.


----------



## g.spinoza

Can some German (or someone well informed) explain something to me?

Coming back from Berlin, last Sunday, near Bayreuth there was pretty thick rain and low clouds, forming some kind of on-and-off fog. I switched on my forward and back fog lights, and suddenly many cars coming from behind began flashing their headlamps to me like madmen. When I switched them off, they stopped.

Did I do something really so wrong? I must say I felt uncomfortable driving in such environmental conditions with my rear fog light off.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Dutch rule is that you should only switch the fog lights on if there is less than 50 meters visibility. I suppose it's something similar in Germany. This is similar to being able to see only 4 markings in front of you.


----------



## g.spinoza

This is something that still amazes me about German people: their active willingness in minding someone else's business, especially about things with small-to-zero importance.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ordnung muss sein  Though the Dutch are equally bad, maybe even worse. We overmanage our country.


----------



## Christophorus

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Dutch rule is that you should only switch the fog lights on if there is less than 50 meters visibility. ...


Thats exactly the same in Germany, and its very good.
Also if you have your back fog lights switched on, u must not drive faster than 50 km/h.

The back fog lights are totally annoying when used in other conditions because they dazzle very much. Keep in mind that those bulbs have 21W or more.

I went through a very rainy Slovenia last year and masses of italians had those lights on, which caused some really dangerous situations due to the extreme dazzling of those lights. They are only supposed to be switched on in deep fog and nothing else.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The most annoying thing is that people forget to turn them off. Belgians also switch on their fog lights even when it just rains.


----------



## g.spinoza

Christophorus said:


> Thats exactly the same in Germany, and its very good.
> Also if you have your back fog lights switched on, u must not drive faster than 50 km/h.
> 
> The back fog lights are totally annoying when used in other conditions because they dazzle very much. Keep in mind that those bulbs have 21W or more.
> 
> I went through a very rainy Slovenia last year and masses of italians had those lights on, which caused some really dangerous situations due to the extreme dazzling of those lights. They are only supposed to be switched on in deep fog and nothing else.


A couple of Germans also had rear fog lights on, yes they're brighter than regular lights but I cannot possibly see why people say they're dangerous or annoying. It's just a little light.

If this is the rule I will follow it, of course, but I don't understand it.

I turned them on because I realize I had troubles seeing cars in front of me, and I thought that people behind me could have the same problem. Apparently I was wrong.


----------



## kato2k8

Christophorus said:


> Also if you have your back fog lights switched on, u must not drive faster than 50 km/h.


And technically that serves as a speed limit legally, meaning >120 km/h with fog lights on = 3 months license loss, 4 points + 600 Euro. Plus another 15-35 Euro for the fog light itself if other people are endangered.


----------



## Xorcist

hofburg said:


> ^I noticed that too. safety is definitely a problem on 2x2 autobahns.
> 
> anyway, here is my set of *A9 Berlin - München*.
> 
> few photos in Berlin, for a start.
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 004 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 005 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 007 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 009 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 010 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 011 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 012 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 014 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 016 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 019 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 020 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 021 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 024 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 025 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 026 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 027 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 029 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 032 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 034 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 035 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 036 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 037 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 038 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> 
> A9 Berlin 040 par d.hofburg, sur Flickr
> 
> ...


Sorry man, but the A9 never ever ended in berlin, most of your berlin-pictures just show some berlin roads, like Kaiserdamm for example. the A9 ends in the north up to 30 kilometers of the Berlin city limits and flows south of the Brandenburg capital Potsdam in the Berlin ring, the A 10...


----------



## kreden

g.spinoza said:


> A couple of Germans also had rear fog lights on, yes they're brighter than regular lights but I cannot possibly see why people say they're dangerous or annoying. It's just a little light.


When it is also raining and everything is wet and darker that light blinds people driving behind you. You should only turn on back fog light if you can't see the back lights of the cars in front of you. That only happened to me a couple times in my whole life, but I see a lot of cars (mostly IT and RO) turn their back fog lights on between rain.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Just butting in from across the Atlantic to remark that I don't have fog lights and I don't know if I've ever seen rear fog lights....


----------



## hofburg

I drove from Munchen on with front fog lights on because my left front light stopped working. They didnt flash me.


----------



## hofburg

Xorcist said:


> Sorry man, but the A9 never ever ended in berlin, most of your berlin-pictures just show some berlin roads, like Kaiserdamm for example. the A9 ends in the north up to 30 kilometers of the Berlin city limits and flows south of the Brandenburg capital Potsdam in the Berlin ring, the A 10...


I know, there is A115 on photos as well. Forgot to indicate.


----------



## g.spinoza

hofburg said:


> I drove from Munchen on with front fog lights on because my left front light stopped working. They didnt flash me.


They can see your front lights only if they're in front of you. Question is: did they not flash, or did they flash but you could not see them?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^They could flash the rear fog lights at him.... 

(Or people going the other direction could flash.)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice aerial of Kreuz Nürnberg-Süd.








by Autobahndirektion Nordbayern.


----------



## kato2k8

Patrick said:


> When going to Heidelberg, I think, after Darmstadt, the A6 to Mannheim (and then at Mannheim/Schwetzingen to A656) is less congested than the A5


That's the A67, you only get to the A6 in Viernheim on that route. The A6 curves around Mannheim and goes to Saarbrücken via K-Town. The Mannheim/Schwetzingen (North) exit on the A6 is for the B535 btw, not A656. That's the one before it.

For some reason lately the A67 is pretty accident-prone, in particular in the North out west of Darmstadt. Seems like an accident blocking the whole thing virtually every other day...

And the route is longer than via the A5. Considerably. Yeah, you're mostly able to stay above 160 on the A67, but you're usually outside rush hour able to pull 130-140 on the A5, making it pretty much the same travel time.

If you actually _want to_ do 100-110 only then the A5 is the less stressful route. Just avoid using it between 7 am and 9 am and between 3 pm and 8 pm...


----------



## Road_UK

Germany totally exaggerates with these speed limits through tunnels. A lot of them you are required to drop down from a 1000 km/h to 80 km/h, even though it's wide and straight. In Austria and Switzerland it's usually 100. There is one in Austria on the A12 near Telfs where you are allowed 130.

Edit: I'm sorry, I appear to be on the wrong thread. I was meant to be in Slovenia.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice aerial of Kreuz Nürnberg-Süd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by Autobahndirektion Nordbayern.


Tell me that wasn't taken, like, last week - the trees aren't changing yet, are they?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I assume it was taken after the reconstruction of this interchange, so probably in 2006 or 2007.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

left-over video from April 2011: the B200 through the city of Flensburg. A nice 120 km/h expressway. This video includes the border crossing with Denmark.


----------



## hofburg

^nice video editing  bumpy border crossing. but you really need speed limits to show?


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Germany totally exaggerates with these speed limits through tunnels. A lot of them you are required to drop down from a 1000 km/h to 80 km/h, even though it's wide and straight. In Austria and Switzerland it's usually 100. There is one in Austria on the A12 near Telfs where you are allowed 130.


Amen to that. I quote every single word.


----------



## Road_UK

^^
Cool. I'm glad we find ourselves on the same level again after a brief period of "misunderstanding".


----------



## LtBk

100km/h, not 1000km/h :lol:.


----------



## Road_UK

1000 km/h if you wanted to. What I meant to say was that you drop from no speed limits to a sudden 80 because of a lousy tunnel.


----------



## Attus

Road_UK said:


> 1000 km/h if you wanted to. What I meant to say was that you drop from no speed limits to a sudden 80 because of a lousy tunnel.


Aren't they presigned? I mean, isn't there a 130, then 100, then 80?


----------



## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> Aren't they presigned? I mean, isn't there a 130, then 100, then 80?


Yes they are. However, this sudden speed drop is dangerous, unjustified and frankly stupid (80 km/h in brand new tunnels with 3 lanes + emergency makes no sense).


----------



## mgk920

LtBk said:


> 100km/h, not 1000km/h :lol:.


I thought that it was c.

:runaway:

Mike


----------



## LtBk

Any plans to increase the speed limit in tunnels. 80 km/h is pretty fucking stupid too.


----------



## Minato ku

What is annoying in german autobahns is the load of works.
In the A1 between Bremen and Hambourg, we almost cannot go faster than 100km/h.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I always get the impression that Germans are scared to death of tunnels. Just an impression, though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A friend of mine noticed the weird spelling of Dreieck München-Südwest. It's apparently written as München-Süd-West on all signs. Is this an error? It's not proper German, see Südwest on Wikipedia. 


IMG_6013 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## [email protected]

Minato ku said:


> What is annoying in german autobahns is the load of works.
> In the A1 between Bremen and Hambourg, we almost cannot go faster than 100km/h.


It's the same down here in Baden-Württemberg. I wonder if it's a special period, in other countries you don't see nearly as many of them. :dunno:
Between the roadworks and the cars that overtake you at 200 km/h you never have time to get bored on the Autobahn!


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> A friend of mine noticed the weird spelling of Dreieck München-Südwest. It's apparently written as München-Süd-West on all signs. Is this an error? It's not proper German, see Südwest on Wikipedia.


The spelling is wrong as such just a bit daft. But what is clearly wrong is to call this junction München-Südwest in the first place. But who am I telling this.


----------



## ed110220

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice aerial of Kreuz Nürnberg-Süd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> by Autobahndirektion Nordbayern.


What is that strange road in the quadrant that looks as though it used to have a cloverleaf loop before upgrade? Why does it meet the ramps at either end at 90 degrees?


----------



## Mateusz

I would think that it's some kind of a closed road, for example to be used in case of emergencies.


----------



## mapman:cz

ed110220 said:


> What is that strange road in the quadrant that looks as though it used to have a cloverleaf loop before upgrade? Why does it meet the ramps at either end at 90 degrees?


It's used by maintenance vehicles during their service. It allows them to maintain the whole interchange more effective without making huge detours to turn back.


----------



## g.spinoza

flierfy said:


> The spelling is wrong as such just a bit daft. But what is clearly wrong is to call this junction München-Südwest in the first place. But who am I telling this.


Muenchen West and Muenchen Sued are already used, and this is between them... how else should it be called?


----------



## mapman:cz

Speaking of München-west, from the satellite images it seems that they started to build it as a full cloverleaf, significantly bigger then the actual interchange. There are also remnants of construction through Allach (more than a ROW). Are there any detailed Infos 'bout that particular A99 stretch?


----------



## Road_UK

Well, they could do worse than connecting the A99 all the way round. If the Ostring is jammed, then use the Westring if you're coming from Nuernberg heading towards Salzburg/Innsbruck. Great alternative to that Mittelring. Or what I sometimes do if everything in that area is jammed: Go to the airport, and from there to Erding, Markt Schwaben, Ebersberg and Bad Ailbing (Rosenheim) and rejoin the motorway near the Inntal Dreieck. Takes 15 minutes longer than if the motorway (A9, A99, A8) was running normal. All country lanes, and not a soul on it. A lot shorter in distance as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^

Wikipedia:


> Aufgrund des Zweiten Weltkrieges wurde mit dem Bau nur stellenweise begonnen, der deutlichste Beleg für die damaligen Bautätigkeiten ist die auf Luftbildern deutlich zu erkennende Allach-Untermenzinger-Trasse mitsamt Resten der Trasse für das Kreuz mit der BAB 8; eine niemals benutzte Brücke an der Stelle wurde erst Mitte der 1990er-Jahre abgerissen. Ferner finden sich gerodete Waldabschnitte nördlich des Hasenbergls.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Well, they could do worse than connecting the A99 all the way round. If the Ostring is jammed, then use the Westring if you're coming from Nuernberg heading towards Salzburg/Innsbruck. Great alternative to that Mittelring. Or what I sometimes do if everything in that area is jammed: Go to the airport, and from there to Erding, Markt Schwaben, Ebersberg and Bad Ailbing (Rosenheim) and rejoin the motorway near the Inntal Dreieck. Takes 15 minutes longer than if the motorway (A9, A99, A8) was running normal. All country lanes, and not a soul on it. A lot shorter in distance as well.


Unfortunately the Munich Ostumfahrung is not going to be relieved soon. The Westumfahrung will not be completed, so you have to pass through the city from A99 to A995, and then you still have to drive on the A8 which is chronically congested. On the other side, neither the A93 will be completed. I know they are building an autobahnliche strasse (motorway-like road) from Saalhaupt near Regensburg to Essenbach near Landshut, but then no plans (that I know of) of extending it to Rosenheim...


----------



## Road_UK

Have you ever driven that route from Airport to Bad Ailbing? It's a great - quite - alternative. Other alternative is to come off at Holzkirchen on the A8, and use Bad Toelz and cross the border at Achensee. Takes you straight onto the A12 at Wiesing/Zillertal - 20 minutes from Innsbruck.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Have you ever driven that route from Airport to Bad Ailbing? It's a great - quite - alternative.


No, never. Sometimes, when I have to go to the airport on "dangerous" parts of the day (like 6pm, when A9 from Munich to Neufahrn is completely locked) I take the B11 through Garching or, better yet, the St2053 through Ismaning.



> Other alternative is to come off at Holzkirchen on the A8, and use Bad Toelz and cross the border at Achensee. Takes you straight onto the A12 at Wiesing/Zillertal - 20 minutes from Innsbruck.


When I'm heading Italy I never take the A8, I prefer A95 to Garmisch and continuing on E533. I take the A8 when going to Munich from Italy. I've driven quite few times through Toelz and Achensee, usually on my way to go trekking in those beautiful mountains


----------



## Road_UK

Then surely you've been in the beautiful Zillertal? And Mayrhofen of course, with the National Park - the highest mountains with footpaths connecting to Italy, and in Mayrhofen itself with two cable cars taking you up to explore the peaks and natural beauty. And then there is Hintertux, a glacier world nearby taking you up to 3200 metres, leaving you to be stunned at the view of the Zillertaler Alpen which is extending into Italy, overlooking the Dolomites. All this 30 km away from the A12, exit Achensee / Zillertal.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Dammit, don't tempt me   I already have a list this long of places I want to go to, and now I have to add Zillertal too... no, never been there 

Now I've been taken over by travel frenzy... one of my co-workers said "wow, you've been to more places around Munich in a year than I did in seven"


----------



## Road_UK

Zillertal is now your priority! Get your ass over here - it is the most beautiful and stunning area in the Alps. 10.000's of tourists every year can't be wrong. You're only 2 hours away. Beer and Schnapps is waiting for you in a mountain hut!

www.zillertal.at
www.mayrhofen.at


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Zillertal is now your priority! Get your ass over here - it is the most beautiful and stunning area in the Alps. 10.000's of tourists every year can't be wrong. You're only 2 hours away. Beer and Schnapps is waiting for you in a mountain hut!
> 
> www.zillertal.at
> www.mayrhofen.at


Unfortunately I'm leaving Munich and Germany for good in ten days. I will relocate to Brescia, Italy, so Zillertal is not that close, but not far either...


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## Road_UK

Three hours to Verona from here...


----------



## flierfy

g.spinoza said:


> Muenchen West and Muenchen Sued are already used, and this is between them... how else should it be called?


Rename München-West to München-Nordwest and then it could be called München-West. Quite simple.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Lot of work for just a word.

Not worth it.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^
> 
> Wikipedia:
> 
> Aufgrund des Zweiten Weltkrieges wurde mit dem Bau nur stellenweise begonnen, der deutlichste Beleg für die damaligen Bautätigkeiten ist die auf Luftbildern deutlich zu erkennende Allach-Untermenzinger-Trasse mitsamt Resten der Trasse für das Kreuz mit der BAB 8; eine niemals benutzte Brücke an der Stelle wurde erst Mitte der 1990er-Jahre abgerissen. Ferner finden sich gerodete Waldabschnitte nördlich des Hasenbergls.


Vertaling, a.u.b.? ;-)


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## ChrisZwolle

A few photos from the renumbered A39. It used to be A250 until November 2010 and runs from Lüneburg to the Maschener Kreuz near Hamburg. Eventually A39 will be constructed from Wolfsburg to Lüneburg, linking northern with southern Niedersachsen.


A39-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-19 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A39-22 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## DanielFigFoz

Niedersachen is Lower Saxony, right?

Does renumbering motorways happen a lot in Germany?


----------



## [email protected]

Maybe they don't want to add more transit to the Stuttgart bypass. :dunno:


----------



## Road_UK

I don't care. I use A5 to Karlsruhe and then A8, seeing that it's finished. The shite starts after Stuttgart, but my answer for Munich is always A3, A9 now anyway.


----------



## Timon91

A6 AK Weinsberg-Viernheimer Dreieck

At Autobahnkreuz Weinsberg the main route changes from A81 to A6. To stay on the A81 you need to exit (TOTSO). The A6 was a bit less comfortable drive than the A81 due to some roadworks and 2×2 sections, but still it's a nice ride. We stayed on the A6 until the Viernheimer Dreieck, just north of Mannheim. Here the main route continues as the A67 towards Frankfurt am Main and the A6 exits the motorway and heads straight west, towards Saarbrücken (another TOTSO).

Map of the route:










The pics (56) can be found on Flickr, as usual.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ Thank you for the great set of pics Timon.


----------



## hofburg

why are A5 and A67 running in parallel? is there need for 2 motorways?


----------



## kato2k8

hofburg said:


> why are A5 and A67 running in parallel? is there need for 2 motorways?


The A67 is older. It was originally built this way to directly connect Rhine-Main and Mannheim in the 30s (and was back then numbered A5). This route bypasses several larger towns on the Bergstraße though, so they built the current A5 route in the 60s and switched the number over there.

Both routes regularly operate at capacity, so they're both definitely needed.


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## Road_UK

If you're coming from Saarbruecken, heading towards Heilbronn, they signpost A6 all the way. Coming back they divert you off the A6, onto the A61 and back onto the A6 again, bypassing Mannheim.


----------



## Timon91

A67 Viernheimer Dreieck-AD Mönchhof

After the A6 continues north into the A67, while the A6 heads straight west. The A67 is a short motorway, I've covered entirely in northbound direction. At the Mönchhof-Dreieck, just west of Frankfurt am Main, the A67 ends in the A3. Before the Darmstädter Kreuz the road is partly 2×3, partly 2×2. After it it's just 2×2. It wasn't really busy, probably because of the parallel running A5. All combined this was also quite a pleasant road to drive. A map:










The pictures, all 32 of them, can be found on Flickr. Thanks for watching!


----------



## Pansori

Timon, would it not be better to just dump all your photos here? I would certainly enjoy scrolling through all that autobahn bliss. 
Anyway, great photos. I really miss driving in Germany. It's one month to go and I'll be raging in Bavaria! It's like waiting to go to the driving heaven that Germany is.


----------



## g.spinoza

Pansori said:


> It's one month to go and I'll be raging in Bavaria! It's like waiting to go to the driving heaven that Germany is.


Don't expect too much... in Bayern there are good roads and bad roads, like everywhere else


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## Road_UK

Is being stuck in traffic in Germany like being in heaven? My heaven is driving in France.


----------



## Timon91

Pansori said:


> Timon, would it not be better to just dump all your photos here? I would certainly enjoy scrolling through all that autobahn bliss.
> Anyway, great photos. I really miss driving in Germany. It's one month to go and I'll be raging in Bavaria! It's like waiting to go to the driving heaven that Germany is.


Thanks  I have one more batch of pics coming up, I will post them the same way as the others. After that I might post a summary of the whole trip with the pics directly in SSC


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## Pansori

g.spinoza said:


> Don't expect too much... in Bayern there are good roads and bad roads, like everywhere else


What do you mean? I've been to various parts of Germany about 7-8 times by now and I am well aware what to expect. :cheers:


----------



## 909

Perhaps a stupid question, but is there a list of all planned, approved and u/c projects regarding the German Autobahn?


----------



## bogdymol

909 said:


> Perhaps a stupid question, but is there a list of all planned, approved and u/c projects regarding the German Autobahn?


I know that I saw this once on wegenwiki.nl, but I can't find it right now.


----------



## 909

bogdymol said:


> I know that I saw this once on wegenwiki.nl, but I can't find it right now.


Thanks for the link, I have found it. It's even in my native language!


----------



## aswnl

Google Translate is helpful for all whose native language isn't Dutch.
Just go to http://translate.google.com/ and put http://www.wegenwiki.nl in the box, set the source language to Dutch and choose your own language to translate to


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## kato2k8

Road_UK said:


> If you're coming from Saarbruecken, heading towards Heilbronn, they signpost A6 all the way. Coming back they divert you off the A6, onto the A61 and back onto the A6 again, bypassing Mannheim.


That's just the loadbalancing on the A6/A61 outer motorway ring around Mannheim/Ludwigshafen.


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## Timon91

A3 AD Mönchhof-AD Köln-Heumar

This is the last batch of pics from my trip. After the A67 we took the A3 towards the Ruhrgebiet. Most Dutch people know this route very well. It's not my favourite road, mostly due to long traffic jams I've encountered here in the past. Luckily it wasn't very busy and most of the route is 2×3. The surroundings are also quite nice. The HSL Köln-Frankfurt(Main) runs parallel to the A3 for quite a while. On my way south I went by train but from the ICE you can't see as much of the A3 as I had hoped for. Near Köln I've visited some friends and the next day we drove back to the Netherlands. Unfortunately it was raining badly that day, so I didn't make any pics. Map of the route:










The pictures (76 of them) are on Flickr.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice set, Timon! I like the valley views you got so many times. The A3 crosses many tributaries of the Rhine, which flow from the Sauerland or Westerwald into the Rhine. I think the Lahn is the most important one in this area. 

Surprisingly, it's been years since I drove A3 south of Köln. I usually go via A44-A7 via Kassel to avoid the Aschaffenburg - Würzburg construction site.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Pansori said:


> So you have a rubbish internet connection and therefore you want others to cut their photos AND you talk about respect. Sorry dude but you're just wrong. This forum is ALL ABOUT photos. Many of them. I can't imagine what internet connection that must be which cannot handle a hundred or so photos per page.


My Internet connection is not "rubbish"; it's practical to be able to travel with it.

There are photos and there are photos. Most, I have no problem with. And I *know* that I'm not the only one who's had problems with some, and I *know* that it's been said in the past - whether at an "official" level or not - that people not put 50 or 100 large ones *in the same post.* In fact, I believe three-per-post has been suggested - not by me - so that you'd automatically get to a new page after a certain number of them. 

And I didn't say anything about "cutting" photos; I just suggested, and am still suggesting, some thoughfulness toward other users - a note of caution about casually "dumping" enormous numbers of them here.

PS: Your post, in its tone, is not a model of respect.


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## Road_UK

I agree with post above.


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## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> If I post 40 pictures, it's less than 2 MB.


And that's not a problem. I don't remember yours ever being a problem.
But I actually got a low-disk-space warning the other night while on SSC. My laptop's got a lot of old files on it (which is my problem, I realize, and I'm working on cleaning them off) but I somehow went from 2 gigs free space to 200 megs while on SSC.

And when someone's posted a long series of repetitive photos of an area I'm not that interested in, and half of them display as red Xs, I'm not likely to click on every one to reopen it, hence if you're trying to show off your photos you lose at least one viewer in that sense. When it's of an area I *am* interested in, I miss out.

By the way, I think I've had trouble on my office computer as well, so I'm not convinced it's just my "rubbish" Internet connection.

I didn't mean to piss anyone off. But since I apparently did, can we perhaps have a moderator pronouncement on guidelines? (Including things like, try to make sure photos are the approriate size that they can be seen without scrolling from side to side?) People can always link to their own albums to display high-res versions. In fact - and I never knew this - I was looking through the SSC FAQs and apparently SSC permits people to create albums somewhere. 

Although I hate to ask you to do work....

:cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

+1


----------



## mcarling

*Photos*

I also agree with *Penn's Woods*.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A143 Halle an der Saale*

The A143 is an incomplete bypass of Halle an der Saale, and probably the most notorious missing link of eastern Germany considering the legal troubles they ran into.

Here on the left:










A143-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A143-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## mgk920

^^

Can you enlighten us as to what kind of troubles the Transport Ministry ran into WRT A143?

:|

Mike


----------



## Pansori

Penn's Woods said:


> My Internet connection is not "rubbish"; it's practical to be able to travel with it.
> 
> There are photos and there are photos. Most, I have no problem with. And I *know* that I'm not the only one who's had problems with some, and I *know* that it's been said in the past - whether at an "official" level or not - that people not put 50 or 100 large ones *in the same post.* In fact, I believe three-per-post has been suggested - not by me - so that you'd automatically get to a new page after a certain number of them.
> 
> And I didn't say anything about "cutting" photos; I just suggested, and am still suggesting, some thoughfulness toward other users - a note of caution about casually "dumping" enormous numbers of them here.
> 
> PS: Your post, in its tone, is not a model of respect.


My reply was an answer to this:



> Speaking only for myself, when people "dump" *50 or 100* photos *on the same page*, my computer often won't display them all properly....


So if someone is posting 5 photos per post and there won't be other posts you will get 100 photos per page (assuming that your default setting is 20 posts per page). Typically, however, you will get anything between 50 and 80 photos per page depending on how quickly you'll be posting all your photos.

I don't think I have ever said that we should post 100 photos per post. If you check my own photo threads you'll see that I typically post 3-6 photos per post (depending on how many other posts there are). This is just common sense really. However you should expect to see anything between 50-100 photos per page on any SSC photo thread. if you can't handle 50 photos per page then perhaps you should find other ways of browsing. Sorry if that sounds disrespectful but we're not in the 56K era right now. If you browse using some mobile internet card you may try switching images off (what I do on my mobile phone when using mobile data) to help cut down the traffic. This, however, by no means should be the reason for anyone to try posting less photos than they have originally intended.

What really happened, I suggested that people post all their photos here (nowhere did I say that it should be AGAINST the 3 photo per post "rule"). Then you say that you can't handle 50-100 photos per page (which is VERY typical over SSC when going ALONG the rule you mentioned) and finally you say that it's not good to post 100 per post. It's really confusing and makes it hard for me to understand what you actually mean. Is it 50 photos per page or is it 100 per post you cannot handle? In the latter case I completely agree. In the former, however, certainly not.

P.S. my apologies to everyone else for going offtopic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

mgk920 said:


> Can you enlighten us as to what kind of troubles the Transport Ministry ran into WRT A143?


Quickly after the reunification of Germany, it was put on the list of high priority road projects in 1992, and first protests against it popped up in the 1990's. A record of decision from 2005 was ruled illegal in 2007 because it ran through a natura-2000 area. The construction has since been ceased, but in the meantime the southern half did open to traffic. Another record of decision was published in 2009, and appeals followed suit. For some reason, it takes a long time (3 - 4 years) before the judge issues a final judgment. 

I don't know why it takes so long, in the Netherlands the judgment dealing with the appeals is issued no more than 6 months after the consultation period ended, typically 7.5 months after the record of decision has been published. I suppose the German judge will make a judgment in 2012 or 2013, after which construction may or may not begin. Originally construction was planned to begin in early 2011. The construction time will take 3 years. The delay so far is approximately 19 years.

Can anybody elaborate why it takes so long between a record of decision and the ultimate judgment by the highest court in Germany?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Pansori said:


> My reply was an answer to this:
> 
> 
> 
> So if someone is posting 5 photos per post and there won't be other posts you will get 100 photos per page (assuming that your default setting is 20 posts per page). Typically, however, you will get anything between 50 and 80 photos per page depending on how quickly you'll be posting all your photos.
> 
> I don't think I have ever said that we should post 100 photos per post. If you check my own photo threads you'll see that I typically post 3-6 photos per post (depending on how many other posts there are). This is just common sense really. However you should expect to see anything between 50-100 photos per page on any SSC photo thread. if you can't handle 50 photos per page then perhaps you should find other ways of browsing. Sorry if that sounds disrespectful but we're not in the 56K era right now. If you browse using some mobile internet card you may try switching images off (what I do on my mobile phone when using mobile data) to help cut down the traffic. This, however, by no means should be the reason for anyone to try posting less photos than they have originally intended.
> 
> What really happened, I suggested that people post all their photos here (nowhere did I say that it should be AGAINST the 3 photo per post "rule"). Then you say that you can't handle 50-100 photos per page (which is VERY typical over SSC when going ALONG the rule you mentioned) and finally you say that it's not good to post 100 per post. It's really confusing and makes it hard for me to understand what you actually mean. Is it 50 photos per page or is it 100 per post you cannot handle? In the latter case I completely agree. In the former, however, certainly not.
> 
> P.S. my apologies to everyone else for going offtopic.


I guess I meant per post.... I don't have the technical knowledge to say what would work (or I'd suggest precise rules myself); just reporting my impressions. Which it appears are not unique.

I have a 3G data card. As I've said, if I upgraded to 4G, my provider would not permit unlimited downloads. I suppose I could do that, for the sake of portability, and at the same time get a second, land-line connection at home (I've thought of that actually), but funds are not unlimited. Portability's important, since I like road-tripping as much as the next person, and I'm at my parents' every other weekend because my dad has Parkinson's, so I'm not giving it up. No idea what my connection speed is.


----------



## Uppsala

Kampflamm said:


> I've never liked those streetlights. The ones that they usually have in French cities look far better imo. Up until a couple of years ago they even had those kinds of highway lamps on Berlin's Unter den Linden boulevard:


^^

That model at that picture is a more modern version. It's more like 1980s or 1990s.

In Hamburg most of the lamps are the models from 1950s and 1960s. Look at the picture again and compare. :happy:










Hamburg still have a lot of them everywhere. Some street have them at both sides. They have even some streets where they have a twin arm version of this model. I think all those lamps look so beautiful in Hamburg. 

For me this is something nostalgic. In Sweden it was a lot of similar lamps at the streets in 1950s and 1960s. In Uppsala there was similar lamps at a lot of streets before. In 1980s some of them still exists. But now nearly all of them are replaced with modern models. And in Uppsala all of them are replaced now. So I love to see those beautiful lamps in Hamburg.


----------



## Uppsala

And here is another with those beautiful lamps in Hamburg. :happy:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Penn's Woods said:


> Speaking only for myself, when people "dump" 50 or 100 photos on the same page, my computer often won't display them all properly....


Beside that often there are dozen of similar photos, and looking at them takes time.

In my opinion, posting 50 normal photos that some don't look at is worse than showing 5 significant photos, but seen by everyone (I usually skip posts with dozens of photos so as to save time).

I agree with Penn's Woods on other points.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A72 Chemnitz - Hof*

This photo set documents the A72 from Chemnitz to Hof. The A72 is a link between A4 and A9 (in the future also to A38), and runs across the foothills of the Ore Mountains. It's a rather scenic motorway, and was pretty high on my to-do list.

route:









10 pics per post:


A72-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A72-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-19 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A72-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-22 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-23 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-24 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-25 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-26 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-27 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-28 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-29 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-30 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A72-31 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-32 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-33 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-34 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-35 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-36 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-37 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-38 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-39 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-40 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A72-41 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-42 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-43 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-44 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-45 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-46 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-47 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-48 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-50 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A72-51 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-52 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-53 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-54 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-55 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-56 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-57 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-58 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-59 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-60 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A72-61 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-62 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-63 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-64 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-65 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-66 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-67 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-68 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-69 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-70 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pictures 1 - 70 on the previous page


A72-71 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-72 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-73 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-74 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-75 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-76 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-77 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-78 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-79 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-80 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A72-81 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-82 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-83 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-84 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-85 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-86 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-87 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-88 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-89 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-90 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-91 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A72-92 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A94 Forstinning - Pastetten*

Tomorrow, 6 kilometers of A94 will be opened to traffic east of München. It's the short section between Forstinning and Pastetten. g.spinoza may want to check it out


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Noooo! Unfortunately tomorrow is my last day of work in Germany and the day after I will come back to Italy, so I can't go there 

By the way, I was there yesterday on my way to the Czech Republic... works didn't seem so advanced. I have some pics, maybe tomorrow (today, it's past midnight) I will have time to post them


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice before-after of A96 near Eching am Ammersee (west of München)


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A94 Forstinning - Pastetten*
> 
> Tomorrow, 6 kilometers of A94 will be opened to traffic east of München. It's the short section between Forstinning and Pastetten. g.spinoza may want to check it out


I checked better, the section between Forstinning and Hohenlingen was already opened when I passed there 2 days ago.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's not the A94, but a temporary spur into B12. The A94 will head northeast to Pastetten.


----------



## g.spinoza

Yes, but previously the motorway ended few meters after exit Forstinning, becoming seamlessly the B12. Now those few hundred metres have been upgraded to motorway and the continuation as B12 has been rendered a junction.


----------



## mgk920

The current Google aerial images show the A94-B12 continuation in its prior form, but with the earliest signs of construction work on the A94 extension under way. Also, note the airliner that the satellite caught when you check that project out.

Those little towns in that area look like they'd be fascinating to explore, too!

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New video, this time of A73 through the Thuringia Forest (Thüringer Wald) between Coburg and Suhl in central Germany. Very nice ride.


----------



## Kampflamm

Cool, I drove on that stretch a couple of weeks ago. The Rennsteigtunnel was quite impressive (checked and it's actually part of A71).


----------



## JB Colbert

Hi to all!
I have a small request.

Does someone has a road map, expecially an Autobahn map, of the former DDR?

Thank you very much in advance!!!


----------



## MattiG

JB Colbert said:


> Hi to all!
> I have a small request.
> 
> Does someone has a road map, expecially an Autobahn map, of the former DDR?
> 
> Thank you very much in advance!!!


This http://www.softwareload.de/shop/google-earth-ddr-karte map installs as a Google Earth plugin. It is not very detailed, but shows the roads.

At http://www.autobahn-online.de/ddrautobahnen.html you can find the list of the Autobahns in DDR at the time of re-unity. The numbering is shown at http://home.arcor.de/abrob/DDR.html

Key: 

1 - single carriageway
12 - built as double carriageway
2 - upgraded to double carriageway

As you can see, DDR did not build many new Autobahns, and many sections were single carriageway only. The transit routes connecting Berlin and BRD are exceptions: They were built by DDR and paid by BRD. The most important transit route was A24 Hamburg-Berlin. The construction work begun in 1930's but after the German division, it was put on hold until 1978.


----------



## JB Colbert

Great MattiG!!!
Thank you very much!!!


----------



## JB Colbert

I found this link:
http://www.eautobahn.de/html/karten.html


----------



## Penn's Woods

So, I bought an ADAC "MaxiAtlas" - which is fabulous, if not cheap.
It shows "environmental zones" in several cities. What's that - something like London's congestion charge?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've got the same atlas. A bit unhandy to use while driving though, it's simply too big. It won't even fit on the passenger seat if fold out to two pages. 

The environmental zones are areas within cities where every car requires a sticker that indicates its environmental class (red, yellow and green). Some cities prohibited red or even yellow stickered vehicles. For instance, my 2004 Renault has a yellow sticker (due to the lack of a particle filter). An ADAC (the German motorist association) study found out these environmental zones have close to no effect at all. Some even argue it's illegal because it outlaws street-legal vehicles with annually OK'd emission standards. No tolls are required for entering these zones.


----------



## Wilhem275

EDIT: sorry, I was late with the answer.


Worst... only eligible vehicles can access those areas. The system is based on four classes of engine pollution, and proof is given by a coloured sticker placed on the windshield (nothing/red/yellow/green).
Pollution classes are pretty tight, especially for diesel engines. You can upgrade your vehicle, e.g. applying a Particulate Filter, but this will only allow you one step up, and no more.
The city council can choose to give access only to the upper classes, some cities only allow green stickers.
Invalid or no sticker result in a €40 fine, both if the vehicle is in traffic or parked.

If the vehicle is eligible, obtaining a sticker should not be diffiult, you have to pay the provider (€ 5-15, I heard).

Exceptions are allowed very strictly, mainly for vehicles in service for handicapped people, historical vehicles, or people/businesses whose economic situation would be endangered by the purchase of a new vehicle. Cases of people whose work times don't allow the use of public transport are analyzed one by one.
No exemptions for foreign vehicles.

I don't know what the Germans think about this, but I think it is mainly a form of taxation and the typical "Hey, I'm so green!" eco-chic rule.
I believe that the problem in city centres is the number of vehicles in general, not the pollution of the oldest ones, which are only a few.
Forcing people to buy new vehicles and scrap perfectly working ones is an act against the environment, if you ask me.

I have to admit that my point is driven by a personal problem, since driving in Germany with my '94 motorhome has become a pain-in-die-arsch, and I cannot even reach places where I would park the van and ride public transport.
But in general I am more convinced by congestion charges, than by pollution classes.

At the moment I can reach no more the best campsites in Berlin and Stuttgart, and recently I drove in Bonn's umweltzone without even being aware (I was lucky).
Retrofitting a PF would take me from null to red class, which nowadays is valued as toilet paper.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^"Forcing people to buy new vehicles and scrap perfectly working ones is an act against the environment, if you ask me."

You're absolutely right about that.


----------



## Satyricon84

I have been in Germany last week, these are some of my pics.

Going from Schaffhausen to Konstanz, driving on the A 81 direction just passed the borderline









Driving on the Bundesstraße 33 from Konstanz direction north


















A 81 direction north


















the exit for Geisingen - Freiburg - Tuttlingen



























Driving on the Budesstraße 27 to Hechingen









Bundestraße 27, direction south to Rottweil


----------



## Natomasken

ChrisZwolle said:


> The environmental zones are areas within cities where every car requires a sticker that indicates its environmental class (red, yellow and green). Some cities prohibited red or even yellow stickered vehicles. For instance, my 2004 Renault has a yellow sticker (due to the lack of a particle filter). An ADAC (the German motorist association) study found out these environmental zones have close to no effect at all. Some even argue it's illegal because it outlaws street-legal vehicles with annually OK'd emission standards. No tolls are required for entering these zones.


Funny this topic just came up here, I just posted a question about it in the Roadside Rest Area thread. I'm coming to Europe and will be renting a car in Amsterdam but driving to Germany, so I'll need to obtain the sticker, but that requires a copy of the car registration which I was unsure if I would have in a rental car. If not, I can't get the sticker and will have to risk getting fines, since all my German hotels are within the zones, I think.

I don't mind paying the €15 for the sticker so much, it's a lot better than paying 40 chf for an annual Swiss autobahn vignette that I'll only use for a few days!


----------



## Pansori

I just did some reading on those "low emision zones" in Germany. This is just utterly mad and stupid!


----------



## Pansori

Btw, I have read that in Munich's case the low emission zone is bordered by Mitlerer ring. The Mitlerer Ring itself is not inside the zone. Does that mean I can park the car on the Mitlerer Ring itself where it has dedicated areas for parking like this one?


----------



## kato2k8

Natomasken said:


> that requires a copy of the car registration which I was unsure if I would have in a rental car.


Since you are legally required to carry Part B of the registration papers (the "Fahrzeugschein" - or the equivalent papers for foreign cars) with you when driving a car in Germany you would have to have those with the rental too.


----------



## kato2k8

Pansori said:


> Does that mean I can park the car on the Mitlerer Ring itself where it has dedicated areas for parking like this one?


Strictly read you can only park on the "outer side" of the ring. In practice you can park wherever you want as long as you did not drive by a Umweltzone sign beforehand.


----------



## mappero

I quite funny with those stickers. Now on my windscreen I have:
- yellow German Umweltzone (diesel '06)
- silver shining Polish registration sticker
- silver Swiss sticker 
- Czech motorway vignette
- Austrian vignette 
- Slovak vignette 
and... perhaps i will put another 2 this year 
Still German one is the biggest 

Hope to have still some place to see through my windscreen


----------



## bogdymol

mappero said:


> I quite funny with those stickers. Now on my windscreen I have:
> - yellow German Umweltzone (diesel '06)
> - silver shining Polish registration sticker
> - silver Swiss sticker
> - Czech motorway vignette
> - Austrian vignette
> - Slovak vignette
> and... perhaps i will put another 2 this year
> Still German one is the biggest
> 
> Hope to have still some place to see through my windscreen


My windscreen looks like this:









^^ Slovenian and Austrian vignettes. How does your look like? 

PS: I've once seen a car with so many stickers that half of the passenger view was blocked :lol:


----------



## Christophorus

^^

Hey lets open a topic for those windshield pictures, i will contribute there, i bet this will quite funny :lol:


----------



## mappero

^^

As done:

European Windscreen's stickers


----------



## ABRob

Penn's Woods said:


> So, I bought an ADAC "MaxiAtlas" - which is fabulous, if not cheap.





ChrisZwolle said:


> I've got the same atlas. A bit unhandy to use while driving though, it's simply too big. It won't even fit on the passenger seat if fold out to two pages.


I recommend the ADAC ReiseAtlas for 10 EUR next time. It's the same map but in A4 (scale 1:200,000) and not in A3 (scale 1:150,000).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A17 Dresden - Czech Border*

This video covers the entire A17 southbound from the A4 near Dresden to the Czech border at Bad Gottleuba.


----------



## cinxxx

Can someone please explain the German sticker to me?
I know Autobahns are not tolled, but I didn't exactly understand the stickers (I heard something regarding Eco). We didn't get one when traveling to Germany.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There has been a HUGE update in Google Earth imagery concerning Germany. Nearly all areas that previously had outdated (8+ year old imagery) are now updated, mostly with 2008 - 2009 imagery. An incredible improvement that was needed for a long time. It may not be in Google Maps yet, as they usually update several days later than Google Earth.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

cinxxx said:


> Can someone please explain the German sticker to me?
> I know Autobahns are not tolled, but I didn't exactly understand the stickers (I heard something regarding Eco). We didn't get one when traveling to Germany.


Its only for German cars I think, certain polluting ones aren't allowed in certain areas


----------



## Pansori

DanielFigFoz said:


> Its only for German cars I think, certain polluting ones aren't allowed in certain areas


It's for *all* cars entering dedicated 'green zones' which are central city areas of most larger German cities.


----------



## muc

> Tomorrow, 6 kilometers of A94 will be opened to traffic east of München. It's the short section between Forstinning and Pastetten. g.spinoza may want to check it out


I have driven there a few days ago, but didn't have a camera with me.
The first kilometer after Forstinning has a concrete surface (very bright) and then changes to asphalt, which is very dark. Nice contrast.
But for a brandnew surface the asphalt is disappointingly bumpy.
The central barrier is made of concrete.


----------



## wkiehl101

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A17 Dresden - Czech Border*
> 
> This video covers the entire A17 southbound from the A4 near Dresden to the Czech border at Bad Gottleuba.


nice drive, good freeway music...pleasant scenery.


----------



## LtBk

What's the tolerance rate for speeding in Germany?


----------



## Attus

DanielFigFoz said:


> Its only for German cars I think, certain polluting ones aren't allowed in certain areas


No, foreign cars, too, need the colored sticker if they want to drive into city centers (environmental zones), but don't need it if only using motorways, and roads outside of the zones.


----------



## cinxxx

I know, when we were this summer in Germany, we also drove through some cities, but we didn't buy any sticker. Just for my info, where are the stickers to be found (I guess gas stations), and how do you know you enter an environmental zone.
So all people that live in cities, have these stickers on their car?
Thanks.


----------



## Varjag

Where is the best way to go fast around Munich versus Linz , Austria. Which part would you recomend ???


----------



## lafreak84

Germany to introduce vignettes?



> by Ulrika Lomas, Tax-News.com, Brussels
> 05 October 2011
> 
> Alluding to the disastrous state of parts of the country’s road network,
> German Transport Minister Peter Ramsauer of the Christian Social Union (CSU) recently
> announced that the introduction of a car toll on the highways in Germany is simply
> ‘unavoidable’.
> 
> Underlining that all the facts point to a car toll, Ramsauer explained that
> a toll would serve to ensure that foreign motorists also contribute to the costs
> associated with financing Germany’s road network.
> 
> Determined to win support for the plans during the forthcoming CSU party conference,
> Transport Minister Ramsauer then aims to moot the proposal within the coalition
> government itself.
> 
> While not ruling out a decision before 2013, the minister nevertheless underlined
> the need for the coalition leadership to first come to a consensus in principle
> on the idea, before various models currently under discussion are presented.
> Although Ramsauer refrained from providing further details, he indicated that
> Austria’s system of an annual vignette (a pre-paid road tax) has been examined as a possible
> option.
> 
> Although German Chancellor Angela Merkel has up to now categorically rejected
> the idea of introducing a car toll in Germany, she has recently indicated her
> willingness to discuss the issue and to place the idea on the political agenda
> if a coalition partner expresses a wish to do so – a clear indication that support
> for the idea is gaining critical momentum.
> 
> Faced with an alarming lack of funding for Germany’s road network, German
> Transport Minister Peter Ramsauer (CSU) called last month for an ‘open
> debate’ to be held on the idea of introducing a car toll on the country’s
> motorways.
> 
> Alluding at the time to a “dramatic funding dilemma” as regards
> the financing of planned road projects, Ramsauer explained
> that in the next five to seven years around a quarter of Germany’s 39,000
> bridges would be in need of renovation.
> 
> Ramsauer underlined the importance of using additional revenues to ensure
> that the country’s road network is both quieter and safer, noting that
> by 2015, a total of EUR10bn (USD13bn) in investment in transport infrastructure in Germany
> will be needed.
> 
> Back in July, leader of the Christian Social Union Horst Seehofer defiantly
> called for clarity on the issue of a proposed car toll – and by the end
> of the year.
> 
> Indeed, during its last sitting before the summer recess, the CSU executive
> united in their aim to introduce a car toll in Germany, emphasizing that most
> countries in Europe currently operate a toll charge system.
> 
> Suggesting a toll in the order of EUR100 a year, Seehofer maintained at the
> time that any revenues derived from the levy should be used to invest
> in the country’s road network. The minister insisted that a cost neutral
> solution should be sought for local drivers, to ensure that the introduction
> of a toll charge does not result in additional costs for German motorists. In
> order to achieve this goal, the CSU has, in the past, suggested the idea of lowering
> the existing car tax in return.
> 
> The FDP and car clubs in Germany remain opposed to the idea.
> 
> http://www.clearingandsettlement.co...m-german-road-toll-unavoidable-says-minister/


----------



## muc

Let's wait and see. This is not the first time a general autobahn toll is in discussion. So far all suggestions in that direction were rejected in the end.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The ADAC points out the tax revenue from motorists already exceeds expenditures on the road network by almost 3 times.



> Es sei “ungerecht, hier in Deutschland eine Pkw-Maut einzuführen”, so Saalmann im Deutschlandfunk. Die Autofahrer seien durch Kfz-, Mineralöl- und Ökosteuer schon zu genug Abgaben gezwungen. Dadurch nähme der Staat jährlich über 50 Milliarden Euro ein, von denen jedoch nur etwa 17 Milliarden für den Straßenbau verwendet würden. Saalmann sieht somit keine Notwendigkeit einer Pkw-Maut, “es fehlt bloß der Wille an der richtigen Verteilung” der Gelder.


----------



## Attus

Varjag said:


> Where is the best way to go fast around Munich versus Linz , Austria. Which part would you recomend ???


It depends on the other point of your route


----------



## thun

^^
Via Salzburg is the shortest alternative. If the German A8 shoulc be clogged, B12 (via Braunau) or A92 are good options (with roughly the same travel time).


----------



## Corvinus

A8 -at least in evening time- was not that much of a problem - getting onto it from A96 via _Mittlerer Ring_ however needs some patience ...


----------



## thun

The A8 is regularly clogged due to holiday travel (mostly on weekends).


----------



## cinxxx

Which is the best choice to get from Austria (Wien), to Ingolstadt?
Without the complete motorway routes AU-A1 + DE-A8-A99-A9 and AU-A8 + DE-A3-A93, I also found this http://g.co/maps/vcpr5 and http://g.co/maps/8cghn

Thanks.


----------



## bogdymol

cinxxx said:


> Which is the best choice to get from Austria (Wien), to Ingolstadt?
> Without the complete motorway routes AU-A1 + DE-A8-A99-A9 and AU-A8 + DE-A3-A93, I also found this http://g.co/maps/vcpr5 and http://g.co/maps/8cghn
> 
> Thanks.


How about route #2 with a small change? On g.maps it looks faster.


----------



## Matz32Z




----------



## kmieciu

> According to the calculation carried out in Poland proposed rates cover only about 37% of costs in the case of motorways and expressways. The rates are fixed licensees under the assumption that they will cover 100% of the company and ensure profit.


Where can I find information on what percentage of costs covered rate in Germany ?


----------



## Trilesy

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of the A71 through the Thüringer Wald, or Thuringia Forest. The video includes the longest road tunnel in Germany, the Rennsteigtunnel near Suhl.


Nice video. 4 tunnels in a row. Why was it so dark in the third tunnel (Rennsteig)?


----------



## Road_UK

All I can say is: God bless the A38. Since it's been completed it saves a hell of a lot of travel time coming from Calais heading towards Dresden.


----------



## keber

It looks like that people don't really follow pretty ridiculous 80 km/h speed limit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They have to, there are a number of speed cameras on this section.  And the 80 km/h limit is really too slow, I don't understand why it can't be 100 km/h, these tunnels are usually evaluated as one of the best and safest in Europe.


----------



## keokiracer

ChrisZwolle said:


> And the 80 km/h limit is really too slow, I don't understand why it can't be 100 km/h, *these tunnels are usually evaluated as one of the best and safest in Europe.*


Because of the low speed


----------



## keber

^^ Sure.

They should put 30 km/h speed limit, they would be even more safe. Common sense? Thing of the past, don't even think of using it.

@Chris: it looks like, that cars move much faster than trucks, so I believe they don't obey speed limit much. Of course maybe those trucks drive 50-60 km/h?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, the video was sped up about 3.5 times. The speed difference was only small in real-time, though some were driving faster. I drove about 90 km/h.


----------



## thun

bogdymol said:


> How about route #2 with a small change? On g.maps it looks faster.


I'm pretty sure that route 1 is better. There are regularly problems (accidents, etc.) between Straubing and Regensburg one A3 whereas there isn't any traffic (and speed limit) at all between Deggendorf and Landshut.
Another option would be to cross from A92 to A9 via Moosburg-Allershausen.


----------



## panda80

Now, some photos from my last trip to Germany, in Saxony. 

First, the section Dresden-Leipzig, A4+A14.

The initial set of photos are from inside the city of Dresden, towards the motorway:

1. 









2. 









3. 









4. 









5. 









6. 









7. 









8.


----------



## panda80

9. Dresden city limit:









10. We first join A17, at exit 2:









11. 









12. 









13. On A17, approaching Dresden West dreieck:









14. 









15. We join A4:









16. Dresdner Tor rest area:


----------



## panda80

17. Continuing on A4:









18. 









19. 









20.









21.









22. Dreieck Nossen. Here we take A14 to Leipzig:









23.









24.


----------



## panda80

25. On A14:









26.









27.









28.









29.









30.









31.









32.









33.









34.









35.









36.









37.


----------



## panda80

38. A 10km long baustelle, speed limit 80km/h:









39.









40.









41. Getting closer to Leipzig:









42.









43. Muldental rest area. Next tankstelle on A14 is quite far, after more than 80 km:









44. 









45. Leipzig is quite close now:









46.









47.









48.


----------



## panda80

49. Dreieck Parthenaue:









50.








51.









52.









53.









54.









55. Another baustelle, after Leipzig Ost exit. That's the exit I took to enter Leipzig:









56.


----------



## panda80

57. Entering Leipzig:









58. Inside the city of Leipzig:









59.









60.


----------



## panda80

Now a set of photos from bundesstrasse 173, between Dresden and Freiberg.

1. Leaving Dresden, going to Freiberg:









2.









3.









4.









5.









6.









7.









8. In Freiberg:


----------



## Xorcist

DSzumaher said:


>


i really love this one, with all this wind turbines in the background...AND the song is great!


----------



## panda80

And now bundesstrasse 101 between Freiberg and A4 motorway.

1. Leaving Freiberg:









2. Quite a lot of traffic on 101:









3. 









4.









5.









6.









7. Joining A4 to Dresden:


----------



## panda80

Next, some pics from A4, between exit 75 Siebenlehn and exit 89, Bautzen West.

1. 3+3 lanes A4:









2. 









3. Dreieck Nossen:









4.









5. Dresdner Tor rest area:


----------



## panda80

6. Continuing on A4 to Dresden:









7.









8. Dreieck Dresden West:









9.









10. Descending towards Elbe river valley:









11.









12.









13.


----------



## panda80

14. Bridge over Elbe:









15. Exit Dresden Neustadt:









16. Some other exits for Dresden:









17.









18. From Dreieck Dresden Nord, A13 will go to Berlin:









19.









20. After Dresden we pass through a nice woodland area:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aha they finished the roadworks at Dreieck Dresden-West. They were building there in August. It seems you've found your way through Sachsen. A nice and underrated state of Germany in my opinion. The border region with the Czech Republic is quite scenic. The route from Chomutov to Chemnitz is very nice.


----------



## panda80

21. We go to Bautzen:









22.









23. Baustelle:









24. 3 lanes uphill:


----------



## panda80

ChrisZwolle said:


> Aha they finished the roadworks at Dreieck Dresden-West. They were building there in August. It seems you've found your way through Sachsen. A nice and underrated state of Germany in my opinion. The border region with the Czech Republic is quite scenic. The route from Chomutov to Chemnitz is very nice.


Yes, no works around Dresden-West. Haven't tried Chomutov to Chemnitz road, but I liked A17, which is really nice to drive between Dresden and Czech border. Unfortunately I have no pictures from A17, as I traveled it when it was quite dark outside. Next time I go to Dresden (I hope around New Year's Eve) I want to take photos from A17 and also A4 towards Chemnitz. Maybe also A13 to Berlin.
Sachsen is indeed nice and Dresden is a marvelous city, which definitely worth a visit.


----------



## panda80

Now continuing our trip on A4 towards Bautzen:

25. Nice motorway:









26.









27.









28.









29.









30.









31.









32.









33.









34.


----------



## panda80

35. Exit for Kamenz:









36. 10min to Bautzen:









37. Another section with works:









38. Rest area Oberlausitz in 5 km:









39. We are close to Bautzen now:


----------



## panda80

40. A bigger baustelle near Bautzen:









41.









42.









43.









44.









45.









46.









47. Touristic sign for Bautzen:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/i...tau.54774aec-68d1-482b-9d6f-348125b83fb6.html

Another segment with 2x3 lanes will open tomorrow on A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart, near Wimsheim and Heimsheim.


----------



## -Pino-

panda80 said:


>


Interesting that nowhere along the A4 you get signs that you are en-route to Poland. Other international routes in Germany would have featured one or more towns abroad on the signs.


----------



## Luki_SL

On the German A15 (E36) there are signs with Breslau (Wrocław).


----------



## panda80

-Pino- said:


> Interesting that nowhere along the A4 you get signs that you are en-route to Poland. Other international routes in Germany would have featured one or more towns abroad on the signs.


Probably after Bautzen they start to sign Breslau (Wroclaw) but I'm not sure as I drove just to Bautzen.


----------



## mapman:cz

panda80 said:


> Probably after Bautzen they start to sign Breslau (Wroclaw) but I'm not sure as I drove just to Bautzen.


They do sign Breslau (Wrocław) after Bautzen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Reconstruction of Dreieck Braunschweig-Südwest (A39/A391) is advanced:



Reconstruction of Kreuz Hannover-Ost (A2/A7)


----------



## DSzumaher

Various Autobahns from Rhineland-Palatinate.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

-Pino- said:


> Interesting that nowhere along the A4 you get signs that you are en-route to Poland. Other international routes in Germany would have featured one or more towns abroad on the signs.


^^
Sometimes towns from neighbouring countries are signed very early like here on A20:


----------



## Matz32Z




----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice aerial video of the reconstruction of Dreieck Schwanebeck to Kreuz Bernim, on the northeast side of Berlin. A10 intersects with A11 here:


----------



## Urban Legend

I wish to drive on Autobahn some day with some nice BMW or Mercedes.
:naughty:


----------



## mgk920

Urban Legend said:


> I wish to drive on Autobahn some day with some nice BMW or Mercedes.
> :naughty:


OTOH, maybe a Trabant will just have to do.

:lol:

(Are those things even autobahn-legal?)

Mike


----------



## keokiracer

^^ You can legally get on the Autobahn with a go-kart: everything that can go over 60 or 70 km/h is allowed on the Autobahn, and I think a Trabant can get to 60-70 so that would be a yes.


----------



## kato2k8

keokiracer said:


> You can legally get on the Autobahn with a go-kart


... if you don't mind the next truck running you over 5 seconds later because he doesn't see you.

As for the Trabant, all Trabant models are rated for at least 90 km/h top speed. Plenty enough for the Autobahn.


----------



## mcarling

keokiracer said:


> ^^ You can legally get on the Autobahn with a go-kart: everything that can go over 60 or 70 km/h is allowed on the Autobahn, and I think a Trabant can get to 60-70 so that would be a yes.


A go-kart? Really? Doesn't it need to be approved by TUV?


----------



## Urban Legend

mgk920 said:


> OTOH, maybe a Trabant will just have to do.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> (Are those things even autobahn-legal?)
> 
> Mike


Only if it's a limo :crazy2:


----------



## thun

mcarling said:


> A go-kart? Really? Doesn't it need to be approved by TUV?


Of course, every vehicle has to be road legal (TÜV approved, insured, number plates). To be, certain standards have to be fulfilled, but theoretically, this is possible for a go-kart as well.


----------



## kato2k8

They basically just need to satisfy the StVZO in all details for the TÜV to really approve them. Lights and indicators at a certain minimum height (lower edge 50cm above ground) for the most part.

Gokarts in that respect fall into the category of "multi-track vehicles with under 1 meter width". Allows them e.g. to have a single main front light. Just like Quads. Or street-legal motorized wheelchairs.


----------



## flierfy

kato2k8 said:


> As for the Trabant, all Trabant models are rated for at least 90 km/h top speed. Plenty enough for the Autobahn.


110 km/h actually. At least for the most common model, the Trabant 601.


----------



## kato2k8

flierfy said:


> 110 km/h actually. At least for the most common model, the Trabant 601.


The old 1950s Trabant P50 is 90 or 95 km/h depending on model.


----------



## MattiG

kato2k8 said:


> The old 1950s Trabant P50 is 90 or 95 km/h depending on model.


They had to raise the maximum speed to 100 km/h because woodpeckers fly 95 km/h.


----------



## DSzumaher

Highways in Saarland.


----------



## DSzumaher

The scenic link to Trier





A1 in North Rhine-Westphalia


----------



## DSzumaher

A2 in Westphalia


----------



## the_Aristocrat

Here is a video I made last year while taking a big tour from the Netherlands to Hamburg and then to Rome in Italy. The focus is on driving through road construction works in Germany, with the narrow left lanes. At times it was quite exciting, as a BMW X5 is a big car to navigate when there is a concrete barrier to your left and a truck to your right, with only a couple of centimeters to spare on each side (20 ~ 30?).


----------



## ABRob

the_Aristocrat said:


> The focus is on driving through road construction works in Germany, with the narrow left lanes.


You're not allowed to drive on the left lane with a SUV (X5) in most of the construction works in Germany! The car isn't small enough. The car is 1,933m *without* side mirrors and the maximum allowed width *with* side mirrors on that lane is 2m!


----------



## ABRob

DSzumaher said:


>





DSzumaher said:


>





DSzumaher said:


>


What's the recording day of these videos?


----------



## DSzumaher

^^
1. - 22.09
2. & 3. - 27.09


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Fortunately the A2 widening near Hamm is to be completed around Christmas. I remember being stuck there in traffic for an hour, and that was 4.5 years ago.


----------



## DSzumaher

Well, there are several other recordings of that day (27.09).

The first 14 km in the North Rhine-Westphalia, and then go to Lower Saxony at Weser Uplands.





The drive near the city known for fairs.





Flat terrain between the largest and second largest city of the state.





Between the West and the East.





That would be enough from my journey across Germany.


----------



## Matz32Z

M11 South from Munich


----------



## ChrisZwolle

52 vehicles crashed on A31 south of Gronau, Friday night at just a little over 7 pm. 3 people were killed, numerous injured. The cause was apparently dense fog. I drove on the road myself around that time, and visibility was less than 50 meters at times, with dense fog all over the Netherlands and northern Germany. 

97 photos:
http://foto.westfaelische-nachrichten.de/fotostrecke/Gronau/Massenunfall_auf_der_A31_1.html


----------



## Ni3lS

What were you doing there??


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I was on the road, not that road


----------



## gigilamoroso

ChrisZwolle said:


> 52 vehicles crashed on A31 south of Gronau, Friday night at just a little over 7 pm. 3 people were killed, numerous injured. The cause was apparently dense fog. I drove on the road myself around that time, and visibility was less than 50 meters at times, with dense fog all over the Netherlands and northern Germany.
> 
> 97 photos:
> http://foto.westfaelische-nachrichten.de/fotostrecke/Gronau/Massenunfall_auf_der_A31_1.html


fog doesn't magically create accidents : fog is basically water, water is not evil it does not make cars crash.

Poor drivers speeding and don't adapting their speed and safety space to climate are the cause of accidents


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Fog is not constant though. I don't know about you, but I've seen times that fog suddenly becomes much denser than before. Which means it could be safe to drive 80 or 90 first, but then you would have to slow down to 30 or 40 suddenly, which is rather dangerous on a motorway. That is usually how such accidents happen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I tried to make a map of all German Autobahnen which existed in 1943.


Autobahnen 1943 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was on the road, not that road


Some random comments.
Car between 27 and 24: I'd say rear passengers with no seat belts, hitting front seats.
Car 38: creepy. Extremely violent hit by the damn VW taxi, which was hit by a MB Sprinter (badly damaged cabin), which was hit by a BMW (7er?) whose speed was certainly too high.

In these kind of accidents you can see how much has been done in the last years about cars passive safety. Some years ago you would have seen vehicles totalled by these crashes, today you see that mainly the older ones are badly damaged.

Still I cannot avoid to blame most of those drivers. I live in the Northern Italian plains and dense fog banks are a typical problem we have to cope with.
First of all people don't generally understand they must keep the speed under the visual distance, even in good weather.
What is more, they don't realize that in dense fog the perception of distance is often distorted and can vary very quickly.

The ONLY way to drive safely in fog is to mantain a steady and low speed, keeping wide distances in order to stop the vehicle without sudden slowdowns.
When you see a denser bank coming up, begin to slow down while you're still visible in the clear area, in order to enter the bank at a proper speed. Avoid cruise control and if possible keep a hand ready on the hazard button.
In very serious conditions I drive as described, and I am glad to see that I usually get up to ten vehicles following my lead on the rightmost lane... while morons speed on the left lane, totally blind.

Driving in fog is one of the toughest conditions possible, and still people treat it like a walk in the park :bash:


----------



## devo

Hopefully, just hopefully, these accidents might disappear, or at least occur seldom, when all cars have working emergency braking systems which will warn you of stopped cars ahead. (no Volvo test video jokes please 

Anyhow, it is utterly stupid to keep a high speed when you know that you’ve run out of safe stopping distance. Regardless of the speed limit, and the road you’re driving on.
Autobahn in fog is only, maybe, slightly safer than any other heavly fogged road. Still some clever people keep driving at 130 with like, 50m, or under 2 seconds of reaction time.

You might drive without accidents your whole life. Or, you might perform your first accident in something like this, 35 years after you got your licence. What happened is a tradegy anyway, and something sensible is hopefully in the pipes to make this less frequent.


----------



## wkiehl101

ChrisZwolle said:


> I was on the road, not that road


Egad.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The oldest motorway-to-motorway interchange of Europe turns 75 years today. On November 21st, 1936, the Schkeuditzer Kreuz near Leipzig went into operation. It has been expanded and modernized in the early 2000's


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are plans to make it Autobahnähnlich (motorway-like). I don't think it'll be numbered A48 though.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are plans to make it Autobahnähnlich (motorway-like). I don't think it'll be numbered A48 though.


Thanks. Is there any timetable?


----------



## Suburbanist

Fargo Wolf said:


> Is the Forestry road open to the public? It's far better quality than the Forestry/Logging roads roads where I am.


It is not open to the public. Bear in mind, though, this is likely a former DDR military road, as it follows the perimeter of the former DDR-FDR internal border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

mcarling said:


> Thanks. Is there any timetable?


Not really. There are a number of things which make road planning in Germany somewhat unstable, mainly funding and appeals.

It is not uncommon in Germany to have secured the right to build, but no funding, which means sometimes it takes years to begin construction after the whole plan has been secured legally. 

On the other hand, appeals take a very long time, if I'm correct it's possible to appeal twice (in the state and on a federal level) and the judgment can take up to two years, so sometimes a project is funded, but has to wait several years before a verdict is issued by the highest court.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> Not really. There are a number of things which make road planning in Germany somewhat unstable, mainly funding and appeals.
> 
> It is not uncommon in Germany to have secured the right to build, but no funding, which means sometimes it takes years to begin construction after the whole plan has been secured legally.


I do not think this is much different from other countries. A golden rule of thumb often applies: The lead time from the initial plans to the final opening may be 30 years.

Germany seems to often build the roads in rather short sections. 5 km this year, 10 km next year, 7 km year following that, etc. This might be a result from a complex decision making procedure.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ This is something I'd like to see changed in most Western World: approval processes that never end and that reward last-minute, late appeals with more delays. Environmental activists are known, in countries like Germany, to wait until the last days of a 6-month window to fill an appeal, in hopes of delaying construction as much as possible.

Other thing we need to change is the piecemeal licensing/approval process in which every single bush is treated as if were a very important spot, and every rural landscape, even those well beyond major urban areas, was the most important piece of land ever. That makes costs skyrocket.


----------



## Chilio

Suburbanist said:


> This is a bonus on my photos. Former DDR-FDR border on B-27 between Braunlage and Elend


I wouldn't say this map is correct. According to it Former Yougoslavia was on the western side of the Iron Curtain


----------



## g.spinoza

It was, and so did Albania. Neither of them were part of Warsaw pact.


----------



## Chilio

Still Yugoslavia was a socialist country in very close relations with all the Eastern countries and not so close with the West. The regime there had all the haracteristics of the Eastern block, so I wouldn't put them on the other side of the Iron Curtain.


----------



## rbagio85

I disagree with your opinion,because position of Yugoslavia at that time was unique,people could travel to almost any country free,had much more freedom than any other comunist country,there are many other issues that conform my point of view.


----------



## g.spinoza

Yugoslavia did not have any relations with Warsaw Pact countries. In fact it was a founding member of the so-called "Non-Aligned Movement". It was no more similar to the Eastern Block countries than it was to the Western ones.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MattiG said:


> I do not think this is much different from other countries. A golden rule of thumb often applies: The lead time from the initial plans to the final opening may be 30 years.


20 years of which are political circus and 10 years of actual procedures. The Netherlands has recently switched to a new model, where funding is secured beforehand and procedures do not last longer than 4 years. Securing the funding means it won't depend on future political priority changes or future budget tightening. 



> Germany seems to often build the roads in rather short sections. 5 km this year, 10 km next year, 7 km year following that, etc. This might be a result from a complex decision making procedure.


It is safer to cut a project up in segments, so that an appeal which succeed against 1 km of motorway will not jeopardize the entire project. If you cut your project up in several record of decisions (Planfeststellungsbeschlusse), you reduce the chance of delays. 

However, phasing projects can potentially drag it out for a long time, for example A3 between Aschaffenburg and Würzburg. This is unwanted in case of road widenings which will impact traffic too long.


----------



## hiweigh

hi

folks. does anybody have information on six lane widening and tunnel constructing works on A8 zwischen Kirchheim und Ulm ?
thanks


----------



## Road_UK

hiweigh said:


> hi
> 
> folks. does anybody have information on six lane widening and tunnel constructing works on A8 zwischen Kirchheim und Ulm ?
> thanks


I only know itz a mess right now, und ich'm avoiding that stretch as much wie moglich.


----------



## GROBIN

^^

Google Translation Pollution ? :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Actually funding has been secured for that section in the 2011 - 2015 investment programme of the federal government.


----------



## GROBIN

^^

So it's a guarantee that the road will be built during this period, right ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The money is there. There is a PPP-project planned for the Albaufstieg section. I don't know about the legal side, i.e. if all procedures are already completed and if there is "baurecht".


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> Actually funding has been secured for that section in the 2011 - 2015 investment programme of the federal government.


That means nothing!

1. This investment programme includes projects for 24.8 billion EUR, but most likely there will be only 16.8 billion EUR available untill 2015.

2. The project is far away from "Baurecht".

3. It's planned as PPP-project. So it's not even funded by this investment programme.


----------



## Aphelion

Today the A72 between Niederfrohna and Penig in eastern Germany opens.


----------



## Road_UK

It's not a through road, compared to A2 and A4, filled with traffic from the Benelux, UK and France, heading for Poland.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A6 Waidhaus (CZ) - Amberg-Ost*

Some pictures I took during this summer. This is the easternmost and newest section of the A6 in Germany. I drove it mainly to clinch it, as the last time I drove in the area, A6 wasn't completed east of Amberg. Traffic volumes in this area are rather low, but A6 saves a lot of time.

route:









1. 

tn_IMG_8188 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2.

tn_IMG_8189 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3.

tn_IMG_8190 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

tn_IMG_8193 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

tn_IMG_8194 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

tn_IMG_8195 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

tn_IMG_8197 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

tn_IMG_8198 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

tn_IMG_8199 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

tn_IMG_8200 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

part II

11.

tn_IMG_8201 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

tn_IMG_8202 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

tn_IMG_8203 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

tn_IMG_8204 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

tn_IMG_8205 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

tn_IMG_8206 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

tn_IMG_8208 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

tn_IMG_8210 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

tn_IMG_8211 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

tn_IMG_8212 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Part III

21.

tn_IMG_8214 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

tn_IMG_8215 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

tn_IMG_8216 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.

tn_IMG_8217 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.

tn_IMG_8218 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

26.

tn_IMG_8219 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

27.

tn_IMG_8220 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

28.

tn_IMG_8222 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

29.

tn_IMG_8223 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

30.

tn_IMG_8224 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Part IV
31.

tn_IMG_8225 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

32.

tn_IMG_8226 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

33.

tn_IMG_8227 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

34.

tn_IMG_8228 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

35.

tn_IMG_8229 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

36.

tn_IMG_8230 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

37.

tn_IMG_8231 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

38.

tn_IMG_8232 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

39.

tn_IMG_8234 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

40.

tn_IMG_8235 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

41.

tn_IMG_8236 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## mcarling

What's going on with the B31 between Freiburg and Donaueschingen? Is that a reasonable route to get from Moulouse (FR) to Stuttgart? Or should one take the A5/A8 via Karlsruhe?


----------



## -Pino-

From what I have seen, B31 is a nice scenic road through the Black Forest. After the Gelbe Autobahn section around Freiburg, you get onto a road with large 2+1 sections. The route bypasses all towns and intersections with roads of any importance are grade separated. But the route is curvy and goes through hilly terrain. You'd be lucky if you reached 100 kmh for more than a few minutes. 

In other words: a good Bundesstrasse, but Mulhouse - Stuttgart is definitely quicker via Karlsruhe.


----------



## Christophorus

Reportage A3 Aschaffenburg-Würzburg einschließlich der vor Weihnachten eröffneten dreistreifigen Abschnitte:

report on A3 Aschaffenburg-Würzburg including recently opened upgraded sections:

-route-










































since the pics wont show up, here s a link to the album @ imageshack:

http://imageshack.us/g/163/dscn2358ip.jpg/


----------



## keokiracer

Christophorus said:


> Reportage A3 Aschaffenburg-Würzburg einschließlich der vor Weihnachten eröffneten dreistreifigen Abschnitte:
> 
> report on A3 Aschaffenburg-Würzburg including recently opened upgraded sections:
> 
> since the pics wont show up, here s a link to the album @ imageshack:
> 
> http://imageshack.us/g/163/dscn2358ip.jpg/


You have to copy the image-URL (right click on pic) and place that between the img-tags
Here you go :cheers:













































Nice pics kay:


----------



## Christophorus

keokiracer said:


> You have to copy the image-URL (right click on pic) and place that between the img-tags


Thats exactly what i did, so im really wondering whats the problem...


----------



## keokiracer

^^ You copied the URL from the top of the page (when I placed it, I got immediately ion the imageshack-page). Look they're different:

Yours: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/dscn2358ip.jpg/
Mine: http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3599/dscn2358ip.jpg


----------



## Christophorus

Aha! Thanks a lot, i´ll try it again next year


----------



## Suburbanist

I drove yesterday on B6 all the way from A14 to A39. Most of the variable speed signs were off and there was few if any traffic.


----------



## Bobek_Azbest

Hello, I wonder if anyone here can help me with this _navigation issue_ of mine.

Once in a while I have to drive from CZ to Denmark. I have always followed the route planner's advice and took the A14+A2+A7 through Germany. But recently I'm growing sick and tired of traffic on A2 and A7 (and the shoulder running between Dreieck Walsrode and Soltau doesn't help the case either). So I came up with the A13+A10+A24+B404+A21+B205+A7 alternative (there's a bug which prevents the route planner to use the B205 south of Neumünster correctly, but you get the picture). I know most of the route, with the exception of B404+A21+B205 bit. It looks fine on a map (the B roads completely grade separated etc.).

So the question is: is this a viable option, or is there some "trap", which is not apparent from the map?

Thanks in advance for any helpful reply.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The B-roads are grade-separated, but neither B404 or B205 have 2+1 lanes. If traffic is heavy, passing other vehicles may be difficult. A21 is a nice autobahn, a bit curvy but traffic is light. 

The alternate route goes up to Kiel, but there are a few traffic lights on B404 immediately south of Kiel.


----------



## Bobek_Azbest

Thanks once again. I guess I'll just give it a try and see...


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

@ChrisZwolle: Thanks for the A6 pictures! 
Judging by your pics the A6´s condition is the best on the stretch shown in Part 3 and 4 while the section of Part 1 and 2 looks a little bit run down.


----------



## ptscout

Kölner Ring with the upgrade and around 9km usual traffic jam before.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Part IV
> 
> ....
> 37.
> 
> tn_IMG_8231 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr
> ....


Via Carolina?


----------



## mapman:cz

Named after Charles IV: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_IV,_Holy_Roman_Emperor 
It represents the route between Prague and Nueremberg. We have a brochure about D5 overhere, you might like some pictures there as well: http://www.rsd.cz/doc/Silnicni-a-dalnicni-sit/Dalnice/publikace-o-dalnici-d5


----------



## ptscout

The 08 last opened section Coburg-Bamberg of the A73 Suhl-Nürnberg


----------



## Matz32Z

Munich Luisse Kiesellbach Tunnel UC


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.focus.de/auto/news/feins...-feinstaubwerte-nicht-gesenkt_aid_711222.html

To no surprise, the environmental zones have no effect on air quality. As usual they only quote PM10 values while traffic adds comparatively little to PM10 concentrations. The impact on NO2 concentrations is considerably more significant, but this is often never mentioned. Nevertheless, weather has far more impact on concentrations of pollutants than traffic, because motor vehicle traffic emissions are fairly constant throughout the year, so when it exceeds the limits, not the traffic but the weather conditions are to blame. Prolonged periods of dry weather and inversion trap all pollutants - including those of traffic - underneath, so limits are exceed.


----------



## Wilhem275

So, can I get my old pollutant Transit back in German cities? 
With a monstruous urban usage rate of 200 km in 5 years...


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.focus.de/auto/news/feins...-feinstaubwerte-nicht-gesenkt_aid_711222.html
> 
> To no surprise, the environmental zones have no effect on air quality.


German environmental zones are a joke. I spent 5 euro for a sticker, and can drive in basically any city center in the whole Germany. This is no deterrent.



Wilhem275 said:


> So, can I get my old pollutant Transit back in German cities?
> With a monstruous urban usage rate of 200 km in 5 years...


I've seen cars from the 80s with the same green sticker of maximum quality that my 2008 Peugeot 207 has. I suspect also the release of the sticker is a joke.


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ Maybe the have LPG. I've seen such cars too, in general are petrol cars, while yellow and red stickers I've seen on diesel cars only


----------



## Wilhem275

I'm still trying to find a corruptable workshop who can certify my '93 Transit 2.5 TD, nickname "Smoky", for a green sticker   

Last summer I drove through Bonn's Umweltzone without being aware of it







I already was in the city at a friend's lab, my parents came and pick me, and then I drove the motorhome to get out of town.
When I saw the sign "End of Umweltzone" I was like :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My 2004 diesel car has a yellow sticker. 

If you have a petrol or LPG-powered vehicle, there is usually no problem, it must be extremely old to get something else than a green sticker. Diesel regulations are much tighter though, even diesel cars less than 10 years old can get a yellow sticker. The main issue is a particle filter. I can install one, but it cost me € 600 and from what I've read it's by far not as effective as original filters are when installed when the car is new.


----------



## Road_UK

Where to you get these stickers?


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Where to you get these stickers?


I went to the TÜV Süd in München, bringing with me just the registration document of my car and 5 euro... and they gave me my green sticker right away


----------



## chris-dmf

g.spinoza said:


> I've seen cars from the 80s with the same green sticker of maximum quality that my 2008 Peugeot 207 has.


Yes, cars with a benzin engine. Diesel is an other Story 
These stickers are in the first for diesel smokers, no problems with benziners.


----------



## g.spinoza

chris-dmf said:


> Yes, cars with a benzin engine. Diesel is an other Story
> These stickers are in the first for diesel smokers, no problems with benziners.


I don't think so, there is no way a 80s benzin car can be Euro4. I think, as others pointed out, that those were LPG-converted cars.


----------



## Nordic20T

It's in german, but look at the table on the right. Red and yellow "Umweltplakette" will not be given to almost any benzin car.


----------



## g.spinoza

Nordic20T said:


> It's in german, but look at the table on the right. Red and yellow "Umweltplakette" will not be given to almost any benzin car.


You're right. So it turns out I was right in the first place: the release of the sticker IS a joke


----------



## Nordic20T

g.spinoza said:


> the release of the sticker IS a joke


Yes, but the government can make a lot of money with it, even more if someone needs to buy an other car because he lives in an Umweltzone or he needs to go there frequently...


----------



## HAWC1506

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20120207-40591.html

Frozen kraut jam leaves autobahn drivers sauer

*An accident involving two trucks, a car and a large quantity of sauerkraut caused a 10-kilometre traffic jam on the A5 motorway in the German state of Hesse on Tuesday morning after the German delicacy froze solid on the road.*

The autobahn had to be completely closed in one direction while police and volunteers struggled to remove the sauerkraut from the tarmac. According to the police report, the impact caused several plastic bags of sauerkraut to burst and spread across the A5 near Friedberg just north of Frankfurt.

Once it had frozen in the sub-zero temperatures, it proved extremely adhesive. “The road had to be partially salted so that the sauerkraut could be taken off,” the police said in a statement.

The accident happened shortly before 5 am, when the sauerkraut-transport truck hit the back of a car being driven by a 34-year-old woman, after the driver apparently misjudged her speed. The driver of another truck approaching from behind reportedly saw too late what had happened and hit the back of the sauerkraut truck.

The contents of both trucks, plus several car parts were subsequently scattered across the road, causing an estimated €100,000 worth of damage.

Though both truck drivers were fine, the woman was slightly injured in the collision.

The sauerkraut truck was able to drive to a nearby depot, but the other two vehicles had to be towed.

The Local/bk

:lol::lol::lol::cheers:


----------



## chris-dmf

g.spinoza said:


> You're right. So it turns out I was right in the first place: the release of the sticker IS a joke


There is a lot of jokes out there...

Old Benziners with a G-Kat are cleaner (feinstaub- fine dust) then some new Diesel cars. Benziners with U-Kat are very rare, so they are all (without and only U-Kat) don´t get the sticker.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A57 Dormagen*

Last night some plastic was set ablaze under a bridge which carries the A57 near Dormagen, between Köln and Neuss. 15 cars and 7 trucks crashed into eachother due to the dense smoke. To add insult to injury, the bridge was heavily damaged by the blaze, currently Strassen.NRW estimates at least the bridge in the southbound direction will need to be torn down and rebuild. 

They are currently planning to construct a temporary bridge next to it, to put 4 lanes into service as soon as possible, because it's a major commuter route which carries over 70.000 vehicles per day. The A57 is currently completely closed down in both directions, traffic is rerouted via parallel A59 across the Rhine River.


----------



## Des

ChrisZwolle said:


> Last night some plastic was set ablaze under a bridge which carries the A57 near Dormagen, between Köln and Neuss. 15 cars and 7 trucks crashed into eachother due to the dense smoke. To add insult to injury, the bridge was heavily damaged by the blaze, currently Strassen.NRW estimates at least the bridge in the southbound direction will need to be torn down and rebuild.
> 
> They are currently planning to construct a temporary bridge next to it, to put 4 lanes into service as soon as possible, because it's a major commuter route which carries over 70.000 vehicles per day. The A57 is currently completely closed down in both directions, traffic is rerouted via parallel A59 across the Rhine River.


The people that did that should pay for the damages...


----------



## ptscout

g.spinoza said:


> You're right. So it turns out I was right in the first place: the release of the sticker IS a joke


I would ignore that shit. The current rate is 40€ and 1 point, but its manly controlled by the traffic wardens and so the driver is usually unknown - no fee in Germany.
The point will also be abolished soon.


----------



## kato2k8

ptscout said:


> its manly controlled by the traffic wardens


In Munich maybe. Over here this isn't a job for the city guys but for state police. It's one of the things they check for in the random spot checks and road blockades, mostly at night. There are also regularly mobile traffic controls targetting specifically Umweltzone sticker offenders here. And we are _not_ one of the four cities considered to be really enforcing the law effectively...



ptscout said:


> The point will also be abolished soon.


Ramsauer's "reform" is nothing but decriminalizing _Kavaliersdelikte_. Pure Klientelpolitik.


----------



## Wilhem275

Nordic20T said:


> Yes, but the government can make a lot of money with it, even more if someone needs to buy an other car because he lives in an Umweltzone or he needs to go there frequently...


If money is the problem, I'd be willing to pay a fee to the city/state to enter the city center. Well, not € 40! :nuts:
They'd get money for every access!
In any case, I'll not buy a new motorhome since mine is 18 years old and is still perfectly fine (nothing surprising), and anyway I'd not buy it in Germany since I don't live there, so the German Government would get no money from me buying a new vehicle! :bash:

Personally, I feel the Umweltzone as a serious freedom of movement (and market) limit. Some examples of what I can't legally do anymore:
- reaching a berliner campsite 3,8 km from the Umweltzone limit http://g.co/maps/q3y2g
- reaching a berliner campsite 500 m hno: from the Umweltzone limit http://g.co/maps/fjx7e
- reaching a stuttgarter campsite 6,2 km from the Umweltzone limit http://g.co/maps/syhw2

What the heck, I use to drive on the shortest route from the autobahn to the campsite IN ORDER to subsequently use public transport.
Now I cannot choose anymore some of the campsites with the best connections. What about market freedom? :bash:

And all these things may happen once every 4-5 years. This is a complete nonsense.


----------



## Matz32Z

B13 Bad Tolz - Saurelach/Lanzenhaar


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*dramatic increase of traffic fatalities in 2011*



> A total of 3,991 people were killed in road traffic accidents in Germany in 2011. As also reported by the Federal Statistical Office (Destatis) based on provisional results, that was an increase of 343 persons or 9.4% on 2010. Hence the number of people killed in 2011 increased even more dramatically than expected. First estimates of December 2011 had expected a 7% increase. The number of people seriously or slightly injured rose by 5.5% to about 391,500 in 2011 on a year earlier.


According to destatis.de, the federal statistical office of Germany.

German version


----------



## mcarling

A variation of 10% or so from year to year is almost certainly within the variance of a normal probability distribution. In other words, it's non-news.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I don't think so. 10% out of 20 people is not relevant, out of 4000 is.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yep, this is actually quite some news because the fatality rate in most European countries have declined quite a bit over the last 10 years. A stagnation is what you can expect after it bottoms out, but 10% increase is quite significant.

Traffic fatalities will never be down to zero, or even close to it, so this "zero vision" like in Sweden is fancy wording, but very unrealistic.


----------



## mcarling

Let's wait and see what the 2012 numbers look like. A single data point (year) showing a 10% increase looks like a random blip. There is nothing statistically significant here. One year doesn't make a trend.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ You may be right only if there was some huge accident with very low probability to happen - I don't know, a plane crashing on the autobahn, a truck on fire inside a long tunnel. Otherwise it is significant.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's not uncommon for small countries to have percentage fluctuations like these, for instance where 2 or 3 fatal accidents can make a significant difference on the total fatality rate. For instance in the Netherlands and Denmark less than 40 fatalities occur every year on the motorway network, so every single fatality more or less has quite an impact. However, in a large country like Germany, it's statistically quite significant. If it was 2 or 3%, I'd say that's possible within the margins, but nearly 10% is really worrisome in traffic safety terms. It may not indicate a trend, but it's also not insignificant. They attribute it to better weather conditions, so people drive faster and sensitive road users (cyclists, pedestrians) are on the road more than average.


----------



## geor

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's not uncommon for small countries to have percentage fluctuations like these, for instance where 2 or 3 fatal accidents can make a significant difference on the total fatality rate. For instance in the Netherlands and Denmark less than 40 fatalities occur every year on the motorway network, so every single fatality more or less has quite an impact. However, in a large country like Germany, it's statistically quite significant. If it was 2 or 3%, I'd say that's possible within the margins, but nearly 10% is really worrisome in traffic safety terms. It may not indicate a trend, but it's also not insignificant. They attribute it to better weather conditions, so people drive faster and sensitive road users (cyclists, pedestrians) are on the road more than average.


The statistic of German autobahns is comparable to the safest European motorways. According to the statistics there were 2.2 road user fatalities per billion vehicle kilometers on German autobahns in 2008. Netherland (2.1 in 2009), Denmark (2.5), Austria (4.2), Switzerland (1.2), and France (1.8). Using the same statistic, 4.5 fatalities have occurred in the United States on motorways. So, i would say, autobahns are very safe "Thing".


----------



## Suburbanist

mcarling said:


> A variation of 10% or so from year to year is almost certainly within the variance of a normal probability distribution. In other words, it's non-news.


How can we say that without knowing what is the standard deviation of traffic causalities' count over a time series-based trend :cheers: ?


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> How can we say that without knowing what is the standard deviation of traffic causalities' count over a time series-based trend :cheers: ?


If we assume a Poissonian distribution for traffic casualties, then there's no need to consider the time series and the standard deviation is easily calculated: sqrt(lambda), which in this case is 63, much less than the observed increase of 400.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's the first steep increase in traffic fatalities in 20 years and the earlier increase likely has to do with the reunification.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ It's impressive to see that casualties have reduced five times since the 70s.


----------



## geor

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ It's impressive to see that casualties have reduced five times since the 70s.


 
As for me, it is most impressive data of increasing casualties since 1974, after introduction of recommended 130km/h speed limit. One would think that the speed is proportional with safe on A.bahn.


----------



## muc

^^ Who really cares about a _recommended_ maximum speed? Even if it has some legal implications, it's still not a real binding limit. No surprise it had no significant influence on accident numbers.


----------



## g.spinoza

muc said:


> ^^ Who really cares about a _recommended_ maximum speed?


Many people. And, oh, the fact that if you have an accident while driving above the recommended maximum speed limit, you are automatically considered co-responsible.


----------



## mcarling

Suburbanist said:


> How can we say that without knowing what is the standard deviation of traffic causalities' count over a time series-based trend?


Because we know that the standard deviation for road fatalities must be at least that of a Poisson Distribution.


----------



## dominikp

Hi, I need some help. I'm going from Wroclaw to Brussels, I plan to go the route A4, A14, A38, A7, A44. Which route should I choose from Dortmund to Brussels to avoid traffic jams on a Friday afternoon?


----------



## cinxxx

P1080356 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1080357 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1080358 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1080359 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1080361 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

And a few shots from the way back from the A/DE border in Lindau and the A96, but not the best of quality, because it was getting dark:


DE - Lindau by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - Lindau by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - Lindau by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - Lindau by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - Lindau by cinxxx, on Flickr

Entering the A96

DE - A96 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1090729 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1090730 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1090733 by cinxxx, on Flickr


P1090736 by cinxxx, on Flickr

Nice castle

P1090740 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## HiRazor

I have a question on Bavarian motorways:

What is the current status of A94 and B15n development? Will they ever be finished? What is the reason of the slow progress? Approving process (environmentalism) or rather finances (all the infrastructure money goes east)?


----------



## DSzumaher

Tour of Brandenburg and Saxony:

From Poland ...





... via Spreewald, ...





... Lower Lusatia, ...





... Dresden, ...





... and Upper Lusatia ...





... to Poland.
2nd longest road tunnel in Germany below


----------



## Stahlsturm

HiRazor said:


> I have a question on Bavarian motorways:
> 
> What is the current status of A94 and B15n development? Will they ever be finished? What is the reason of the slow progress? Approving process (environmentalism) or rather finances (all the infrastructure money goes east)?


Since that's practically behind my house I'll bite. The B 15n between Saalfeld (connection with A 93) and the town of Neufarn is ready and under traffic. I drove that a few weeks back myself to make sure it's really there. Another part past Ergoldsbach is under construction by now and the last part from Ergoldsbach to the A 92 at Ohu, just north of Landshut has been approved and construction will begin soon(ish).

Plans to build the B 15n further than the connection with the A 92 are a matter of intense and heated debate and I have a feeling it'll be another 30 years before they actually will start on that.

As for the A 94, they will keep fighting this until Earth disappears in a solar flare I think...


----------



## cinxxx

Some pictures I made yesterday from Nürnberg Hbf to Rothenburg ob der Tauber.
B8-A73-A6-A7 - Map: http://g.co/maps/uad46

*B8*


DE - B8 - Nürnberg by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B8 - Nürnberg - Entering A73 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B8 - Nürnberg - Entering A73 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*A73*


DE - A73 - Aproaching Nürnberg Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr

Here I mist the exit towards A6, so I had to turn around

DE - A6/A73 - Kreuz Nürnberg Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr

*A6/A73 - Kreuz Nürnberg Süd*


DE - A6/A73 - Kreuz Nürnberg Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6/A73 - Kreuz Nürnberg Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*A6*


DE - A6 - After Kreuz Nürnberg Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 57 - Roth by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 56 - Schwabach Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 56 - Schwabach Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 56 - Schwabach Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 55 - Schwabach West by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

DE - A6 - Liechtenstein (FL) Plate  by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 54 - Heilsbronn by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 54 - Heilsbronn by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Exit 54 - Heilsbronn by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Road Works - Also RO Truck by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

And some heavy rain we got


DE - A6 - Heavy Rain by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Heavy Rain by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A6 - Aproaching Kreuz Feuchtwangen/Crailsheim by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*A6/A7 - Kreuz Feuchtwangen/Crailsheim*


DE - A6/A7 - Kreuz Feuchtwangen/Crailsheim by cinxxx, on Flickr

*A7*


DE - A7 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 - Exit 109 Wörnitz by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 - Aproaching Exit 108 Rothenburg o.d.T by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 - Exit 108 Rothenburg o.d.T by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A7 - Exit 108 Rothenburg o.d.T by cinxxx, on Flickr

*St2250 - Near Rothenburg o.d.T.*


DE - St2250 - Near Rothenburg o.d.T. by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## xrtn2

These roads is okey.


----------



## cinxxx

The ones with asphalt (A73, A6), very smooth and nice.
The one with concrete (A7), mixed feelings, it shakes you well .


----------



## Attus

cinxxx said:


> The one with concrete (A6), mixed feelings, it shakes you well .


I suppose it's about A7. One year ago when I was there last time, it was shaky. Next month I'll drive there but I will use another way: A3 - A93 - A3 - A9 - A14 - A2.


----------



## cinxxx

Attus said:


> I suppose it's about A7. One year ago when I was there last time, it was shaky. Next month I'll drive there but I will use another way: A3 - A93 - A3 - A9 - A14 - A2.


A7, yes, I corrected my post.
It's not so bad, you can drive 140-150 with no problems, but it shakes you a little .


----------



## cinxxx

Pictures from my trip from Ingolstadt to Ulm:
http://g.co/maps/cqevn

First *B13*:


DE - B13 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B13 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B13 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B13 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B13 by cinxxx, on Flickr

*B300*


P1090847 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B13/B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B13/B300 - staying on B300 towards Augsburg by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr

Spargel everywhere 

DE - B300 - Spargel everywhere  by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 - Weichenried by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 - Schrobenhausen Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 - Kühbach Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 - Kühbach Süd by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - B300 by cinxxx, on Flickr

Exit towards A8 (Daising 74b)

P1090883 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

*A8*


DE - A8 - after entry Daising 74b by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 - Exit 74a - Friedberg (Bayern) by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 - Exit 74a - Friedberg (Bayern) by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 - Exit 73 - Augsburg-Ost by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 - Exit 72 - Kreuz Augsburg-West by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 - Exit 72 - Kreuz Augsburg-West by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 - crossing the Danube by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 - crossing the Danube by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A8 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Selfkant - Heinsberg - Jülich - Euskirchen - Bonn - Rosbach.

A562 in Bonn is also a part of this route.


----------



## mcarling

Interesting. Is part of the A3 a part of the (previously) planned route? Looking at the map, I don't see why the A562 is not extended east to the A3.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Today it's exactly 77 years ago the A5 Frankfurt - Darmstadt opened to traffic. It is usually considered to be the first true public motorway of Europe and the world, though discussions about the definition of the first motorway are of course neverending


----------



## xrtn2

ChrisZwolle said:


> Today it's exactly 77 years ago the A5 Frankfurt - Darmstadt opened to traffic. It is usually considered to be the first true public motorway of Europe and the world, though discussions about the definition of the first motorway are of course neverending


Okey


----------



## 909

Is there a list of all planned, approved and u/c projects regarding the German Autobahn?


----------



## Christophorus

^^ 

there is this:

http://www.autobahn-online.de/auswahl_e.html

this site is a fund of knowledge for german Autobahns:

http://www.autobahn-online.de/index_e.html (english version)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Unfortunately autobahn-online appears to have been updated last in 2009. There is also a forum which I used to participate in years ago, but it has little activity nowadays (especially for a country as big as Germany). 

As far as I know this is the most up to date map of German motorway plans:

http://www.bmvbs.de/cae/servlet/con...ichtskarte-und-tabelle-nicht-barrierefrei.pdf


----------



## verreme

A95 southbound:










Loved that drive. Beautiful scenery, no speed limit (except in those roadworks) and low traffic.


----------



## 909

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unfortunately autobahn-online appears to have been updated last in 2009. There is also a forum which I used to participate in years ago, but it has little activity nowadays (especially for a country as big as Germany).
> 
> As far as I know this is the most up to date map of German motorway plans:
> 
> http://www.bmvbs.de/cae/servlet/con...ichtskarte-und-tabelle-nicht-barrierefrei.pdf


Thanks!


----------



## ABRob

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is also a forum which I used to participate in years ago, but it has little activity nowadays (especially for a country as big as Germany).


The activity is quite OK. Just don't compare it with the 'wegenforum'.



ChrisZwolle said:


> As far as I know this is the most up to date map of German motorway plans:
> 
> http://www.bmvbs.de/cae/servlet/con...ichtskarte-und-tabelle-nicht-barrierefrei.pdf


:hilarious:rofl::hilarious

*This* is still the best site about Autobahnen:
http://autobahnatlas-online.de/index_e.html

More up to date is only OpenStreetMap.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

He was asking for motorway construction plans, not route information. 



> The activity is quite OK. Just don't compare it with the 'wegenforum'.


I was checking yesterday at 2 pm. Not a single message was posted by that time that day... If you exclude the updates by MichH, there is hardly any activity in the main forums... Autobahn-Online forum needs to be updated, it looks archaic.


----------



## the_Aristocrat

I don't know if this has been posted already, but during the Cold War many Autobahns had parts that could be converted into an military airstrip in case of war. In 1984 the A29, which was then newly constructed, was converted into an airstrip for an exercise. 

For this alternative video of the Autobahn, please look here:


----------



## lambersart2005

two weeks ago, I drove down A40 in the Ruhr area and saw this sign. As far as I know, the "Bochumer Aussenring" was intended to be upgraded to a three-digit-A-number and not A44 ?! When I passed the location today, the A44-shield was deleted. 
Does anybody have some news about the numbering?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've read it was supposed to be the A448.


----------



## geor

Does enybody know something about this equipment?


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Where can i look at for data and informations?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absperrtafel

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkehrssicherungsanhänger


----------



## bogdymol

^^ I think that _*geor*_ was referring at those_ lines_ that are mounted in the asphalt...


----------



## geor

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absperrtafel
> 
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkehrssicherungsanhänger


 
As bogdymol said, i would like to have information of LED directional equipment in a road work zone on MW, as it is showed in the picture.

 Anyway, thanks.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

geor said:


> Does enybody know something about this equipment?
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> Where can i look at for data and informations?


^^
These things are callled "*Warnschwellen*" and they are used for several years now. Their task is to make construction works on autobahns safer. A driver who hits these Warnschwellen will surely take notice that there is a construction site in front of him and probably don´t crash into it (like happened ofter before). 

*MORE INFORMATION (IN GERMAN)*


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## geor

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> These things are callled "*Warnschwellen*" and they are used for several years now. Their task is to make construction works on autobahns safer. A driver who hits these Warnschwellen will surely take notice that there is a construction site in front of him and probably don´t crash into it (like happened ofter before).


 
Very simple and useful equipment, seeing for the first time on D-bahn.

Thank you Deadeye.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A44 Jackerath - Holz*

Construction officially began today at the Jackerath Interchange for the new A44 between the Jackerath and Holz motorway interchanges, south of the city of Mönchengladbach. The new A44 is a reconstruction of the old A44 which was torn down in 2006 for the expansion of the Garzweiler open mine pit. The new A44 will be constructed slightly to the east. The cost - which is € 100 million - will be paid by the RWE energy giant. The "A44n" will be 7.2 kilometers long with 2x3 lanes, to handle the traffic once A61 is removed for mining operations. The A46 along the south side of Mönchengladbach will also be widened to 2x3 lanes.


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## x-type

ChrisZwolle said:


> *May 30th 2012*
> 
> A 2.2 kilometer section of Autobahn A1 opened between Kelberg and Gerolstein in the Eifel region in western Germany.
> 
> http://www.volksfreund.de/nachricht...e-Tim-mit-der-Autobahn-waechst;art751,3174039


the most famous gap in the world has became shorter. but is still resisting


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## mappero

^^ Why this gap was never end up ? Political or eco reason?


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## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
*Environmental reasons.* 

Here is a map showing the next two sections which are planned to be built in the next years. However the closure of the whole gap (30km) will take a loooong time. 








^^
*1.)* Blankenheim <---> Lommersdorf
Length: 6km
Costs: 50 millions €uro

*2.)* Lommersdorf <---> Adenau
Length: 8,7km
Costs: 130 millions €uro

Source

____________________________________________________________________

*In other news:*

Another section of the A8 is now being widenend to 2x3 lanes. :banana:

Section: Hohenstadt <---> Ulm-West
Length: 22km
Construction time: 2012 - 2018
Costs: 200 millions €uro


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## Coccodrillo

x-type said:


> the most famous gap in the world has became shorter. but is still resisting


Tehre is a "gap" also near the French border (because A1 isn't linked with the French motorway network)...


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## CNGL

When I saw the "Adenau" thing about A1 I thought the autobahn would go across the Nordschliefe (The "old" Nürburgring), but now I see it would run West of it.


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## Des

I drove through Germany last week, from Arnheim (NL) to Köln, Köln to München, München to Bochum, Bochum to Köln and Köln to Arnheim (NL). I've driven tru Germany quite a lot in recent years but jeez there's a lot of baustellen at the moment...

Some of my findings: 

A3 Köln-Ost is still a big bottle neck but the ausbau to 2x4 progresses well
A3 Frankfurt-Wurzburg is partly upgraded from 2x2 to 2x3 but large parts are still under development. The new 2x3 bits are really nice 
A3 Wurzburg-Nurnberg has some baustelle as well especially near Wurzburg and the A7 intersection but its mostly still 2x2
A9 Nurnberg-Munich great although at peak holiday times it struggles to cope with the traffic

On the way back I drove a different route via A6 and A7 from Nurnberg because there was an accident on the A3 between Nurnberg and Wurzburg. 

A6 Nurnberg-A7 Intersection is also one big baustelle but it doesn't look like an ausbau, I could be wrong. 2x2 is clearly not enough for all the truck traffic heading west from Poland / Czech Republic

A7 A6 Intersection-Wurzburg: 2x2 but quiet and beautiful highway through the hills

A45 Frankfurt-Dortmund: Nightmare, huge baustelle every 10km including all bridges, bad road surface and mostly 2x2 with some 2x3 bits up the hills. 

A40 Bochum-West -Essen: 2x3 ausbau should be ready next year, part of it is already done and a good relief after the A45


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## ChrisZwolle

Des said:


> A3 Köln-Ost is still a big bottle neck but the ausbau to 2x4 progresses well


This project is extremely slow because they work at a few kilometers at the time. They've been working nearly non-stop on the eastern part of Köln for the last 9 years. The planned widening of the last section AK Leverkusen - AS Leverkusen is planned _after 2015_, which means it's likely completed in 2018-2019 or so, which means the widening of A3 will take 15+ years.


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## panda80

I spend this Easter holiday in Germany and France so it's time for some pictures of German autobahns.

First, A4 between Dresden and Kirchheimer Dreieck (includes some pics from inside Dresden and also from A17):

Inside Dresden:
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We enter A17 motorway:
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## panda80

On A17:
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Dreieck Dresden West, from here we enter A4:
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## panda80

On A4, which is 3+3 till Jena:

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Dreieck Nossen, from here starts A14 towards Leipzig and Magdeburg:
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## panda80

We continue on A4, it was Sunday morning, that's why traffic is so scarce:

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It was very cold, we even see a little bit of snow on these hills:

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## panda80

A pleasure to drive:
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After Chemnitz Ost, Gera appears on the distance sign:
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Interesting stretch of motorway:
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## panda80

43.









Kreuz Chemnitz, intersection between A4 and A72:
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We stay on A4:
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## panda80

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The motorway twists its way through the small Thuringian hills:
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## threo2k

I must say that German autobahns are absolutely the best in the world! No doubt about that. Not just the roads, but also the nature matchs together with the roads! 

I have drived on all the autobahns in germany but not the A17 from Drezden to Prague. I hope to do this in the near future!


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## Road_UK

Yes, parts of the A4 between Dresden and Erfurt has concrete plate pavement, like a lot of Eastern European countries have, and even parts of the connecting Polish A4, which is brand new is concrete plated. As for the German side: I wonder if it's a souvenir of the old DDR, because normally it is not the style of Germany to use road surface like that.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think there is much pre-1990 pavement left on Autobahnen in the former DDR. Most were either renovated or widened, such as A2, A4 and A9. Apparently only a part of A11 still has old concrete. Things were different in the late 1990's, I remember driving A13 from Berlin to Dresden around 2000 and several parts were in very bad condition, similar to Polish A4 west of Wroclaw before 2005/2006.


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## Road_UK

Hmm, I think Germany could have done so much better with the current A4 in the east, as well as the A2 from former border to Berlin, which has the same surface as the A4.. Same with the Polish A4 from border to Wroclaw. But I'm glad the A4 and A2 are exceptions, in comparison with the rest of the eastern German network. A14 and A38 are wonderful roads!

Edit: I remember roadworks on the A14 years ago. It had the same concrete plates, but they were all being removed, and replaced with proper road surface.


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## panda80

Even if concrete, I found the motorway surface quite good. There were lots of cars doing +180km/h, so no special problems with the pavement.


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> Yes, parts of the A4 between Dresden and Erfurt has concrete plate pavement, like a lot of Eastern European countries have, and even parts of the connecting Polish A4, which is brand new is concrete plated. As for the German side: I wonder if it's a souvenir of the old DDR, because normally it is not the style of Germany to use road surface like that.


If I remember correctly, A8 west of München till, more or less, Augsburg is made of concrete.


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## hofburg

^yes. nice photos! on A8 you're stuck in traffic on 2x2, A4 apparently has no traffic and its 2x3. moreover, where are the roadworks??!


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## ChrisZwolle

A4 and A8 actually have rather similar traffic volumes, around 45.000 - 55.000 vehicles per day, though A4 briefly dips to 30.000 east of Gera.


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## panda80

I continue with photos from A4.

Still 3+3 and very scarce traffic (I don't know how it looks on a work day, we travelled on sunday):
64.









Between Gera and Jena:

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## panda80

Hermsdorfer Kreuz:

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Continuing on A4:

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Downhill to Jena:
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Saaletalbrucke:
80.


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## panda80

From Jena a new alignment of A4 is under construction and the traffic goes on the old alignment (which is 2+2 without shoulders).

81.









The motorway will go to the right here through the tunnel:
82.









A4 on the actual alignment. Does anybody know what will happen with it after the construction of new A4 is finished?
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The point where the new A4 will join the existing one:
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## ChrisZwolle

Unfortunately the Jagdbergtunnel has been significantly delayed. Construction started in 2008 and was to be completed in mid-2012, but has been delayed to mid-2014. The overall roadworks in Jena started in 2004.


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## panda80

So still 2 years to wait for a decent A4 there...I imagine is quite congested on the actual 2+2 alignment near Jena.

-------------------------

After the construction site, A4 is again 3+3:

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## panda80

Between Erfurt and Eisenach:

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## panda80

111.









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The new motorway section around Eisenach, which replaced the old alignment of A4:
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After Eisenach
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## ChrisZwolle

The portion around Eisenach is also a new alignment, which opened in 2010.


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## panda80

We leave Thuringen:
121.









The former inner-Deutschland border:
122.









Continuing on A4, still 3+3:
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2+2 from here:
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## panda80

On some sections the motorway lacks a proper shoulder:
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## panda80

138.









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## panda80

Baustelle:
143.









No shoulder at all:
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Near Kirchheimer Dreieck:
149.









We join A7, direction Wurzburg:
150.









That's all from A4, hope you enjoyed it, I will post pics from other German autobahns soon, but on the following pages to keep the page loading time decent.


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## threo2k

I just need to ask, if you want to continue on A4 against aachen, which sign do you need to follow from here? A7 against frankfurt?


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## Road_UK

Where are you going?


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## panda80

threo2k said:


> I just need to ask, if you want to continue on A4 against aachen, which sign do you need to follow from here? A7 against frankfurt?


Yes, you must follow Frankfurt signs on A7, then A5 and from Giessen A45 towards Dortmund. Then you join A4 at Kreuz Olpe Sud.


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## Road_UK

Yes, but he wants to go against Aachen, whatever that means..


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## Road_UK

threo2k said:


> I must say that German autobahns are absolutely the best in the world! No doubt about that. Not just the roads, but also the nature matchs together with the roads!
> 
> I have drived on all the autobahns in germany but not the A17 from Drezden to Prague. I hope to do this in the near future!


To me German motorways are NOT the best in the world. Obviously never been in France. And have you REALLY driven on ALL autobahns in Germany apart from the A17? Then surely who know the way "against" Aachen or Frankfurt...


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## Road_UK

please delete


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## Road_UK

Satyricon84 said:


> The explanation of this is in tolls. Who can, uses alternatives free routes cause french highways are expansive. In Germany you don't need this, so the highway is very practical. Evidence of this is for example the A35 Mulhouse-Strasbourg that's free; is crowded as much as a german highway. And from Basel to Strasbourg however I find more pratical the german "twin" A5. It's faster.


This is not the reason. France is not overpopulated, like Germany. Even the RN's around the toll routes are quiet, while on some other tolled autoroutes, there is more traffic then others. A1 Paris-Lille is the busiest, followed by A13 Paris-Rouen, A6 and A10. And in areas where there is a lot of traffic, these roads are owned by the State, and are not private companies. A bit different in Italy, where nearly ALL motorways are tolled, even the Milan Orbital. A35 is really not all that busy, compared to the German A5 nearby. And with these ongoing roadworks and hold-ups particularly in the Freiburg, I prefer the A35 anytime. And French customs at the Basel border are 100 times friendlier then their German colleagues. 




Wilhem275 said:


> And this is a HUGE advantage open networks have over closed ones. The toll stop is always a bottleneck, but that's not the worst thing.
> The main problem is that you can never connect a high-capacity open road directly to a closed system motorway, so you'll always have land-consuming and flow-slowing connecting roads, often placed in odd points of the network chosen upon the available space instead of the traffic flow needs.


This applies in Italy, not France. Tolls start AFTER the last bottleneck, where in Italy they start in the middle of it.



snowdog said:


> There's your problem (assuming heavy >3.5t vans). Of course driving in France is better if you drive a slow van, have to drive during busy hours and your employer pays for the tolls...
> 
> Drive in a normal car capable of high speed comfortably ( so no city tincans or big slow vans) in quiet hours ( when travelling for personal reasons anyone can decide to travel at night rather than mess about in heavy traffic), and you will see why Germany is far nicer to drive in.
> 
> As for the French nice people, that is subjective, I definitely prefer Germans, at least they are not so arrogant about their language. Try speaking English in France, they will often burble back in French... But I'm biased too, as I can speak Dutch and they will mostly understand me, and they can speak German to me and I will mostly understand it.
> 
> ''You stop in traffic instead''
> Easily avoided by travelling at night, unlike toll booths which slow you down and cost you extra money 24/7.
> ''Yes, end?''
> Drive over rubbish slow roads instead of quickly covering miles on a highway...
> ''Yes, and? What is wrong with the speed limit in France''
> Yes there is. Germany is one of the few countries which doesn't have a completely retarded view on speed limits, at least they understand that in many areas a speed limit makes no sense at all.
> 
> Driving through Germany is faster ( I guess arguable depending on time of the day, and if keeping to the speed limits) and cheaper than in France, what else matters ?


So, now it's your turn. We have already established that my van is under 3.5T and I actually mingle with tourist traffic. Germany has a fully retarded view on speed limits. Unless you enjoy dropping down from 200 to 80 km/h, and speed limits in Germany does apply on most motorways. And they are downgrading more and more motorways. Recently the A8, just across the border from here. Rosenheim bound has been 130 for a long time, now a large stretch it`s 80, due to bad road surface. Kufstein bound used to be unlimited, but is now 130 all the way. A61 Köln-Mannheim is 130 or lower. And A3 all the way from Oberhausen to Passau it's stopping and going, stopping and going, and speedlimit changes are too many to count. And of course, most tunnels on motorways in Germany you have to drop down to 80. Talking about retarded!

In France on the other hand, I get to do a nice steady 135/140, day and night and hardly ever having to switch off my cruise control. I don't mind paying for these tolls, I don't pay them, my boss does. 
Viva la France!!!
I don't mind Germany, but after a day of agressive assholes, road works, grumpy customs and police officers and slow driving (!) , entering France at Saarbrücken is like a breath of fresh air, and for me it's a major good-mood upgrade. I will be stopping at the first services before Metz, and get some good food inside me. I may stop the night, and drink some wine too! Sleeping in France in my van is a pleasure, I won't get woken up by engine running trucks and loud speaking Polish truck drivers!


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## Attus

Population density:
Germany: 229 people / km2
France: 116 people / km2

Germany is almost twice as densely inhabitated than France, and if you take Ile de France away, you get approx. 80 people / km2 which is a pretty low value.


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## Road_UK

That's right.


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## panda80

Now few pics from A7, section between Kirchheimer Dreieck and Hattenbacker Dreieck:

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3.









We are going in the direction of Giessen:
4.









5.


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## panda80

After leaving A7, we continue our way on A5, till Giessen (Reiskirchener Dreieck to be more precise).

So, pics from A5 between Hattenbacher Dreieck and Reiskirchener Dreieck:
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## panda80

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## Easy driver

Nice pictures .

I remember two years ago, the section of the A5 between Freiburg and Baden-Baden was in work for enlargement to 2x3 lanes. Is it done now?


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## ChrisZwolle

There are currently roadworks between Baden-Baden and Offenburg for a widening to 2x3 lanes. It will be finished in late 2013.


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## Easy driver

Is there a project to widen the sections between Basel and Freiburg; between Freiburg and Offenburg?



What about the A98, when is it planed to reach A5 to A96?


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## ChrisZwolle

It's planned as "weiterer bedarf", which means it's on the bottom of the priority list. Only a section between Freiburg-Mitte and Teningen has the status of "vordringlicher bedarf", so that would be the next section to be widened, though there are no concrete plans yet, to my knowledge. Luckily the new Verkehrsminister (Transportation Minister) of Baden-Württemberg, who is from the Green party, does not categorically oppose road widenings, but I suppose A5 is not high on the list of priorities.


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## Easy driver

Thank you for your answer.

I saw they were planning the A98 for decades now, and it's still not going on.

Is there a planned date of opening?


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## -Pino-

I believe that a continuous A98 between the A5 and the A96 has been removed from the planning ages ago (mind you, the original plan had been to have an A98 until Irschenberg on the A8 east of Munich). They might extend the A98 a bit to the east from its present terminus, so that it might run to Tiengen. But no other extensions are currently being planned.

On top of that, the B31n along the North shore of Lake Constance (Bodensee) might over the years turn into a dual carriageway that could eventually reach the A96. But that will take ages and is unlikely to be ever signposted as A98.


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## panda80

A set of photos from A480 near Giessen.

Distance sign after Reiskirchener Dreieck:
1.









Giessener Nordkreuz, intersection with A485:
2.









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Approaching the end of A480:
5. 









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We go towards Limburg from here, on B429 and then B49:
7.


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## ChrisZwolle

Interesting signs with "Gießener Ring". I cannot remember seeing that elsewhere in Germany. Maybe it's an invention from Hessen, they like to do things different.


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## Satyricon84

Nice pics Panda80! A lot of nostalgia to watch these pics from Gießen area


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## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting signs with "Gießener Ring". I cannot remember seeing that elsewhere in Germany. Maybe it's an invention from Hessen, they like to do things different.


I think it may be done to provide people with clear sign posting on those who wish to use the Giessen shortcut (A45, A5). It is a bit confusing and messy out there to say the least...

How does Hessen like to do things different? I have never noticed this.


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## ChrisZwolle

Hessen aligns overhead signs on the left, while other states use centered signs.

Nordrhein-Westfalen:

IMG_9045 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

Hessen:

IMG_9226 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## RipleyLV

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting signs with "Gießener Ring". I cannot remember seeing that elsewhere in Germany. Maybe it's an invention from Hessen, they like to do things different.


Interesting, I thought they had those only in Berlin:


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## g.spinoza

In Bayern too:


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## JackFrost

Penn's Woods said:


> No matter how rich he is, those 27 tows in a few months would have been annoying enough to him, I'd think, to make him pay more attention to where he parks (or whatever he got towed for)....


i am sure he noticed just after his 27th tow what a big douchbag he is, which of course he didnt realize 26 (!) tows earlier...


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## cinxxx

Satyricon84 said:


> To break law shouldn't be a privilege for rich people that can pay fines as we pay a coffee, but should be something that hit everybody in the same way since the law is the same for everybody (and hit offencers in the same way)
> 
> About him, he solved the problem hiring a driver.


But it's simple.
On repeated offenses, just give the driver a ban.
But offenses like speeding 10kmh are just ridiculous.


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## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> So if poor people break the law, it's less of an offense just because they're poor? The rules are the same for everyone, why not the fines?


I think we should define more precisely what is the meaning of fines  

The concept behind fines can be divided in two branches:
- Payback: repaying the society for the damage one has made by breaking that specific rule
- Punishment: playing as a deterrent for who gets one, since it's pretty well known that everyone's most sensible organ is the money pocket 

I think that in a fair system the two parts should be calculated separately.
The first should be the same for everyone, with the amount based on the danger the violation implied. Danger that has a precise economic value and the aim is to collect money to repay a debt, no matter how poor or rich one is (a damage is a damage).

The second should be proportional to one's earnings, because the aim is to make the punishment being "felt".
The point is that to make it feel like a punishment money is not the aim but the instrument, so the important parameter is not the amount itself but how much the loss hurts you.
Another part of the instrument are driving bans, which should not be based on income, since time is the same for everyone.

I think this is not "letting the poors get away with murder" but trying to give everyone the same "Jesus Christ, I'll think twice next time" effect 





ChrisZwolle said:


> then why not start introducing variable housing prices, variable VAT, variable tolls, variable telephone rates...


Actually in free markets all those things are already variable 
Housing prices vary upon size/location/luxury of the house.
The VAT is a percentage, so it varies upon the value of the object.
Tolls vary upon the size of the vehicle, calculated on how much it wears the infrastructure.
Telephone rates vary upon how much you choose to use the phone... and so on.


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## Satyricon84

ChrisZwolle said:


> So I don't think a "high income surcharge" will really do anything to improve traffic safety. The majority of the major offenses are not handled through fines, but by the suspension of the driver's license or impounded vehicles, which will hit the rich just as much as the poor.


In Italy, due privacy, can't be photographed the driver. When you get the fine at home, you have to indicate who was driving (especially in the case you lose points or u get a suspension of the driver's license). If you don't indicate who was driving, you must pay double the fine (example the fine is 500 €, if you don't indicate the driver you'll pay 1000€). So here you have why rich people aren't hitted the same, is enough to pay and you'll be always saved. A normal people instead must chose if get a suspension or don't eat for a month.


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## italystf

Satyricon84 said:


> In Italy, due privacy, can't be photographed the driver. When you get the fine at home, you have to indicate who was driving (especially in the case you lose points or u get a suspension of the driver's license). If you don't indicate who was driving, you must pay double the fine (example the fine is 500 EUR, if you don't indicate the driver you'll pay 1000EUR). So here you have why rich people aren't hitted the same, is enough to pay and you'll be always saved. A normal people instead must chose if get a suspension or don't eat for a month.


It would be easier to fix the privacy law and allow photigraphing faces. And fines should be proportional to income especially for violations that don't imply loss of points or suspension of driving licence, like parking violation. For bigger violations, suspension of d.l. and decurtation of points are far more feared than monetary losses and are already equal to everybody.


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## Satyricon84

italystf said:


> It would be easier to fix the privacy law and allow photigraphing faces.


It was like this in past, but then, when somebody with power and money got at home the pic of him and a sensuous woman next to him in car and he had to explain who she was to his wife, this law changed......


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## italystf

Satyricon84 said:


> It was like this in past, but then, when somebody with power and money got at home the pic of him and a sensuous woman next to him in car and he had to explain who she was to his wife, this law changed......


Just blur the face of the passenger and show only the driver... so easy...


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## Satyricon84

italystf said:


> Just blur the face of the passenger and show only the driver... so easy...


Easy to say, not to do. Otherwise it would be already done. Think that radar controls or cameras must be indicated before, otherwise the fine is not worth...pretty ridiculous


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## Easy driver

They are now many low emission zones in Italy and in Germany.
In Germany you have to stick a green vignette depending on the emission of your vehicle to have access to all "Umwelt Zone". It's 40 Euro fine, if you don't have it.
In Italy, it's quite unclear, you have the ZTL zone. I know that some are used as a congestion charge (per ex. in Milan), while other are banned zones and tickets are very expensive - 115 Euro or so. So which vehicle can go through without being fined?

Also, It's have been said that these zones are huge tax incomes for some Italian municipalities.


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## italystf

Satyricon84 said:


> Easy to say, not to do. Otherwise it would be already done. Think that radar controls or cameras must be indicated before, otherwise the fine is not worth...pretty ridiculous


That's because the official aim of speed traps is to prevent people to drive fast thus increasing safety and not to catch the biggest number possible of violators. However unfortunately the real aim is get money.


----------



## Satyricon84

Easy driver said:


> They are now many low emission zones in Italy and in Germany.
> In Germany you have to stick a green vignette depending on the emission of your vehicle to have access to all "Umwelt Zone". It's 40 Euro fine, if you don't have it.
> In Italy, it's quite unclear, you have the ZTL zone. I know that some are used as a congestion charge (per ex. in Milan), while other are banned zones and tickets are very expensive - 115 Euro or so. So which vehicle can go through without being fined?
> 
> Also, It's have been said that these zones are huge tax incomes for some Italian municipalities.


In Milan you pay 5 euro everytime you enter in the ZTL zone. Even if you are resident. in Germany 5 euro for the sticker and it's worth for the whole Germany. Concerning ZTL here, it's pretty complicated....exceptions are displayed in the integrative panel, but for to read it you should stop your car under it cause sometimes is written so little and very confusing. Usually they are allowed residents, police vehicles, ambulances and trucks for delivery in some range of times.

EDIT: an example of integrative panel









it means: access forbbiden:
_all vehicles petrol/diesel euro 0-1-2
_out province PA (It should be Palermo, but I doubt really what it means)
Allowed: 
_residents in ZTL A
_authorized by O.S. (No idea what is)
Exceptions vehicles < 3,5t.
10.00-12.00
13.00-16.00
20.00-07,00

Sorry of the OT


----------



## Wilhem275

People... this used to be the German Autobahn topic :|


----------



## alesmarv

ChrisZwolle said:


> So if poor people break the law, it's less of an offense just because they're poor? The rules are the same for everyone, why not the fines?


Fines are supposed to be a deterrent, so having them tied to the income and net worth of a person most definitely makes logical sense.

All fines should have a minimum that then scales based on the model and category of the car (e.x. a luxury sports car should be at the upper end). The 3rd fine in a 12 month period should have a surcharge based on the drivers income and net worth, same for the 4th. The 5th then should include a 3 month driving ban without resetting the clock, at that point the only way to reset it should be to go 12 months without a violation. The 6th should include a 6month driving ban, the 7th a 9 month driving ban, the 8th a 12month driving ban and the 9th a 24 month driving ban. the 10th should then include criminal charges and a life time driving ban. At some point a patter of violations no matter how minor become criminal in their nature with their conscious and clear disregard for the courts and the laws.

Fair to me and really there is no reason for a person to even get to 3 within a rolling 12 month period, above that the punishments should get harsh and make everyone hurt no matter how wealthy they are.


----------



## alesmarv

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem is that the vast majority of offenses which are handled through fines are for speeding and parking. Speeding fines issued are chiefly on revenue locations rather than actual black spots and parking fines are an annoyance, but rarely a real danger to traffic safety.
> So I don't think a "high income surcharge" will really do anything to improve traffic safety. The majority of the major offenses are not handled through fines, but by the suspension of the driver's license or impounded vehicles, which will hit the rich just as much as the poor.
> 
> By varying fines you'll end up with a system where the poor pay the current fines and the middle- and upper classes pay fines that are out of proportion in relation to the offense (as some fines already are).


Kind of like this incident last year in my town with 13 kids ALL UNDER AGE OF 21 got a $196 ticket each (120euro or so) and a few dollars in towing fees for street racing.

These were each one of their cars.
2007 Ferrari 599
2010 Lamborghini Gallardo
2010 Lamborghini Gallardo
2009 Lamborghini Gallardo
2009 Audi R8
2012 Nissan GT-R
2010 Nissan GT-R
2010 Nissan GT-R
2010 Maserati Turismo
2010 Maserati Turismo
2011 Mercedes SL63
2011 Mercedes SLS
2005 Aston Martin DB9

Meanwhile they all left smiling and one was even pulled over the next day in another luxury car. I love your logic and im sure these kids learned a lesson. (I live in the money laundering capital of Chinese money by the way).
http://www.burnaby-bc.ca/News/?NID=28

/sorry if this is getting off topic but this particular subject I feel passionately about because there are lots of extremely wealthy and careless kids where I live who taunt the system.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Impound their cars or suspend their driver's license. € 120 for something like illegal street racing is a laughable fine, even if you don't have a high income. Typical example of cash-cowing instead of doing something real about the problem.

It always surprises me what kind of big deal people make about the Ballotelli's and other 0.00001% of the population.


----------



## alesmarv

ChrisZwolle said:


> Impound their cars or suspend their driver's license. € 120 for something like illegal street racing is a laughable fine, even if you don't have a high income. Typical example of cash-cowing instead of doing something real about the problem.
> 
> It always surprises me what kind of big deal people make about the Ballotelli's and other 0.00001% of the population.


Wont make a difference as they generally have other foreign licenses and if not then its just a matter of a phone call and they have other cars to use. On top of that they have no roots here as they fly around the world, if you really get on their case and inconvenience them here they will shuffle of to somewhere else for a while. One of them at that scene even asked to have his car towed to his house latter on as he was flying out of the country on the same day.

Your logic simply doesn't work in the real world. At-least not where lots of people have lots of real money and can feed of each other (especially kids).

By the way your 0.00001% number makes no sense, more like 10%. I spend lots of time in Europe of and on, almost every year (2months last fall) and although there is not as much money there as there is where I specifically live there is still way more obscenely rich people then you are implying.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hefty fines are really not going to change the super rich 0.0001%. A current fine for significant speeding in Germany for a normal income is like 10% of their monthly income and a point on their license. Do you think that the super rich care if they're fined € 100.000 on their € 1 million income? I don't think so. Monetary sanctions don't work with such people, that's where other measures like suspension of licenses, impounding of cars or even imprisonment come in.

Again; I don't understand why people make such a big deal about the 0.0001% that can get away with everything. That's just the way of life, some people are more fortunate than others. Fining or taxing them isn't going to change that (also see the recent bonus scandals of bankers).


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> then why not start introducing variable housing prices,


What do you mean? If you can't afford a big house, you buy it small, or outside towns. They do cost less.



> variable VAT, variable tolls, variable telephone rates... Really, it's just petty jealousy that people can afford to get many fines. Has it ever been proven traffic safety degrades because the 0.1% can afford just about any fine?


Because fines are punishment. The others are not. Pretty big difference.


----------



## Satyricon84

ChrisZwolle said:


> Again; I don't understand why people make such a big deal about the 0.0001% that can get away with everything. That's just the way of life, some people are more fortunate than others. Fining or taxing them isn't going to change that (also see the recent bonus scandals of bankers).


So why to pay taxes according to your income? Let's pay all the same, no matter if you earn 1.000 or 1.000.0000 no?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are ample examples of flat-taxes.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Again; I don't understand why people make such a big deal about the 0.0001% that can get away with everything.


Because NOBODY should get away with everything.



> That's just the way of life,


"Funny, I've always believed that the world is what we make of it" (quoted)



> some people are more fortunate than others. Fining or taxing them isn't going to change that (also see the recent bonus scandals of bankers).


But maybe they can teach them a lesson or two.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There are ample examples of flat-taxes.


Indeed. That doesn't make them automatically right.


----------



## Satyricon84

It would be better to have own thread concerning fines and continue this interesting conversation there. At least we could also comparate the different fine systems around the world


----------



## Road_UK

So, start one and I will join in...


----------



## panda80

Satyricon84 said:


> Nice pics Panda80! A lot of nostalgia to watch these pics from Gießen area


 . And to bring more nostalgia, another set of pics from Giessen area, this time from B429 and B49.

1. We are on B429, still on Giessener Ring:










2. From now on, B49:










3. The access to A45 direction Dortmund is blocked:










4. B49 is 2+2 here:










5.









6.









7. 1+1 with no overtaking possibility:










8.









9.









10.


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ I remember very well this road, I used to drive there often to meet a friend near Tiefenbach. But I have never visited Limburg & Weilburg unfortunately. In 2009 they were rebuilding the asphalt near Wetzlar so there was often traffic there, but in general is a good road!


----------



## panda80

^^Yes, this is a very good shortcut when coming from A5 and going towards Koblenz, A3 or A61. I also haven't visited any town there, I was in transit to Trier.

11.









12.









13. 2+2 again:









14. Some roadworks, to enlarge the road to 2+2:









15.









16. Another 1+1 without the possibility to overtake:









17.









18.









19.









20. 2+2 again:


----------



## panda80

21. We also have a shoulder here:









22.









23. And we reach A3. We go north on A3, towards Koln:









23.









That's it from B49.


----------



## cinxxx

This was the situation today on A9, near Munich, A99 East, and A8.


upload images

Pure madness, it seems the heat hit the people in the head, I saw 4 or 5 crashes today. On Autobahn, on Landstrasse, and even one on the entry ramp on the Autobahn, can't understand how that happened.

And I made the distance Ingolstadt - Prien instead of under 2 hours, in 4h30min, in the end this was the way I went http://goo.gl/maps/3Mra. That left me with little time to spend on the islands, and canceled my planned visit to Rosenheim on return .
On return in the evening, things cooled down, and 1h45min was the time needed this also taking a little Landstrasse detour http://goo.gl/maps/tK1c

And another interesting thing, they illuminated part of the Baustelle on A9

image host


----------



## Daviedoff

A620 trough Saarbrucken:


----------



## cinxxx

Can someone recommend a nice restaurant near the A3 Autobahn between Nürnberg and Regensburg? I want to meet some friends coming from Aschaffenburg itowards Vienna, and I was looking for a convenient place for me in Ingolstadt and for them. Thanks.


----------



## Falusi

A video about München bypass/ringroad(A99) and A94:


----------



## Aphelion

On Friday the northern extension of A1 at Heiligenhafen is supposed to open.


----------



## PLH

In this video you can see that there are no give-way signs by the on-ramps, whereas they can be found elsewhere in Germany.

How is it reguated? I don't know for sure, but I suppose some time ago every motorway entrance had a give-way sign.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aphelion said:


> On Friday the northern extension of A1 at Heiligenhafen is supposed to open.


Yeah, last Friday according to the Baustellen information of LBV-SH. However, I haven't read anything about it in the news and it's not uncommon in Germany that projects miss their deadlines.


----------



## Wilhem275

Talking about priority on Autobahn ramps, is it true that traffic on Autobahn has to give way to vehicles coming from the ramp (since they come from the right hand direction)?

When I drive my motorhome I always have problems with cars entering and cutting me, when I have no free space on the left... This happens mostly in Bayern.

What's the correct rule?


----------



## Road_UK

Of course not. Traffic on the main carriage way on motorways has right of way at all times.


----------



## mapman:cz

Here we go:


> Auszug aus der Straßenverkehrs-Ordnung (StVO):
> §18 Autobahnen und Kraftfahrstraßen
> 
> (1) ...
> 
> (2) Auf Autobahnen darf nur an gekennzeichneten Anschlußstellen (Zeichen 330.1) eingefahren werden, auf Kraftfahrstraßen nur an Kreuzungen oder Einmündungen.
> 
> (3) Der Verkehr auf der durchgehenden Fahrbahn hat die Vorfahrt.


So the traffic on through-lines has priority.


----------



## g.spinoza

Wilhem275 said:


> Talking about priority on Autobahn ramps, is it true that traffic on Autobahn has to give way to vehicles coming from the ramp (since they come from the right hand direction)?
> 
> When I drive my motorhome I always have problems with cars entering and cutting me, when I have no free space on the left... This happens mostly in Bayern.
> 
> What's the correct rule?


I noticed that while in Germany too, and my Italian friend who lives there for many years warned me: "Keep in mind that on motorway ramps Germans merge almost without looking, they turn their indicators on and, ready or not the ones on the main carriageway, they merge".

It's just a different habit with respect to how Italians handle this situation.

Some days ago I was driving on SS 510 east of Iseo lake (1+1 but completely grade separated)... I was on the main carriageway and slowed down to allow a car on the entrance ramp to merge... I almost stopped and the guy still didn't merge... then I realized I was not in Germany any more...


----------



## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> I noticed that while in Germany too, and my Italian friend who lives there for many years warned me: "Keep in mind that on motorway ramps Germans merge almost without looking, they turn their indicators on and, ready or not the ones on the main carriageway, they merge".
> 
> It's just a different habit with respect to how Italians handle this situation.
> 
> Some days ago I was driving on SS 510 east of Iseo lake (1+1 but completely grade separated)... I was on the main carriageway and slowed down to allow a car on the entrance ramp to merge... *I almost stopped and the guy still didn't merge*... then I realized I was not in Germany any more...


I noticed the behavior too, and also the bolded thing happened to me to, but in Germany .
Although trucks tend not to let you merge, so you have to pay attention.
Anyway, I don't merge blindly, I blink and check my mirror carefully. 
But when I drive on the road and see a car on the ramp, if it's ahead of me, I always think it could merge, so better be careful, break a little, I find it also a matter of civilization, it's not that bad. 
Imagine if the road is very busy and nobody lets you in, you end up driving on the shoulder, or worse, if the acceleration lane doesn't have a shoulder and you are forced to brake and stop if you can't enter.


----------



## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> Imagine if the road is very busy and nobody lets you in, you end up driving on the shoulder, or worse, if the acceleration lane doesn't have a shoulder and you are forced to brake and stop if you can't enter.


I agree, in fact I find the German habit better than the Italian one.


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## ChrisZwolle

It wouldn't change much, the existing road will pretty much be doubled, but no new alignments.


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## -Pino-

On top of that, the new route may have major strategic importance, but I do not expect such large AADT that you can speak of major environmental impact. As the main natural asset of the island is its coast, the duplication of a route straight through the middle of the isle is not too shocking either. If anything, the view of the new bridge from the coast (as opposed to the A1 extension) might distract one or two visitors.


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## g.spinoza

flierfy said:


> There is nothing odd about this decision. 13'400 vehicles cross the Fehmarn sound bridge each day. There is nothing to worry about. The existing 2-lane-road handles this traffic volume very well.


There is, since a one-lane bridge connecting two two-lane roads is nothing short of stupid (and dangerous).


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## Road_UK

I can't imagine it being dangerous.


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## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> I can't imagine it being dangerous.


Come to A14 at Rimini, where 3 lanes become 2, and you'll see how lane reduction can be dangerous.


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## Road_UK

We are talking about a tiny little island in Germany, with little traffic. There are lane closures all over Europe. Depending where you are, and if traffic volumes reduces significantly, then there is no reason to have an extra lane. As for Fehmarn: they have recently extended the A1 a little further, but traffic volumes after Lubeck is so low, that the only benefit that has come out of it, that we can drive a little faster. Going the other way, an extra lane helps for the traffic coming off the ferry to spread a bit better.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Annual average traffic volumes will likely rise to about 20.000 vehicles per day if the Fehmarnbelt Tunnel is constructed. However, summer volumes are likely higher, and the Fehmarnsund Bridge may become a seasonal bottleneck.


----------



## Road_UK

When is the tunnel going to be finished?


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> As for Fehmarn: they have recently extended the A1 a little further, but traffic volumes after Lubeck is so low, that the only benefit that has come out of it, that we can drive a little faster. Going the other way, an extra lane helps for the traffic coming off the ferry to spread a bit better.


If the traffic is so low why are they building a motorway? Either you build a motorway all the way or you don't build it at all.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Road_UK said:


> When is the tunnel going to be finished?


2021. Construction will begin in a few years. The project was delayed due to procedural difficulties on the German side, the Danes originally planned to complete the tunnel by 2018.



g.spinoza said:


> If the traffic is so low why are they building a motorway? Either you build a motorway all the way or you don't build it at all.


It's a part of a motorway corridor from Hamburg to København, so it makes sense to complete it as a continuous motorway, just like any other motorway in Europe. The tunnel or bridge is rather expensive and would have needed two tubes for road traffic anyway, so it makes sense to do it right at once, and provide a four-lane facility. 20.000 vehicles per day may be low for a motorway, but it's loaded on a two-lane highway. I prefer to make the short Fehmarnsund Bridge four lanes as well, but it's not the end of the world. You'll never know what may happen after 10 years.


----------



## Road_UK

This is what I was about to say, and anything that help things to go a bit faster is a bonus. There are no traffic problems there, and it is a nice ride up to Puttgarden.


----------



## mcarling

If the bridge turns out to be a bottleneck in practice, then there will be pressure to replace it with a 2x2 bridge (or to add another 2-lane bridge).


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## Road_UK

We cross that bridge when it comes to it.


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## Road_UK

A29 in France has 2 sections of 2x1 lanes over valley bridges between Rouen and Alencon.


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## ChrisZwolle

That's A28. But the volumes there are lower than on future 2x2 B207, only about 6.000 vehicles per day with no real seasonal peaks like elsewhere in France.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's A28. But the volumes there are lower than on future 2x2 B207, only about 6.000 vehicles per day with no real seasonal peaks like elsewhere in France.


Sorry yes, A28. A gift from heaven for being able to drive to Bordeaux, avoiding Paris. And no traffic at all on that road.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> We cross that bridge when it comes to it.


Groan.


----------



## flierfy

g.spinoza said:


> If the traffic is so low why are they building a motorway? Either you build a motorway all the way or you don't build it at all.


Denmark along with Sweden wants to build a motorway. Germany doesn't. Hence the rather different approach to this sea crossing.


----------



## drzamich

Hi fellows! I will be driving this week from Solothurn, CH to Wrocław, PL thru Germany. GMaps reccomends 3 similar ways. Which should i choose?


----------



## flierfy

drzamich said:


> Hi fellows! I will be driving this week from Solothurn, CH to Wrocław, PL thru Germany. GMaps reccomends 3 similar ways. Which should i choose?


Take the route via St Gallen.


----------



## Des

Road_UK said:


> Just did Austria-Holland and back in two days, and I can recommend the A9/A3 route to anyone. A few roadworks: On the A9 just north of Munich, and larger scale works at Aschaffenburg, but nothing that will delay you. A3 part of the Cologne Orbital is now refurbished, and has 4 lanes, which guarantees a smooth transit, even in the rush hour. Before Oberhausen they are doing dome works, but also there nothing spectacular. I recommend the A3 over the A61 to anyone.


I don't, I've driven Munich-Amsterdam and Amsterdam-Munich many times and the A3 is so prone to huge delays. Especially the bit Nurnberg - Wurzburg is a nightmare. The bit Wurzburg - Frankfurt is much better than it used to be but still has some 2x2 sections. What day were you driving? Normally the right lane on the A3 is one big truck traffic jam. The A9 Nurnberg-Munich is excellent unless its holiday season and it can be completely jammed. 

From NL to Switzerland or Southern-Germany I prefer the A61, especially with the new A74 connection at Venlo.


----------



## Christophorus

*80 years of german Autobahn!*

Congratulations on 80 years of Autobahn to Germany! On August 6th *1932* the first Autobahn was opened between Köln and Bonn. Nowadays A555 which was 1+1 at first.


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## ChrisZwolle

A555 had four lanes, but not a real median. It was more modern than the earlier Autostrada dei Laghi in Italy though.


----------



## Road_UK

Des said:


> I don't, I've driven Munich-Amsterdam and Amsterdam-Munich many times and the A3 is so prone to huge delays. Especially the bit Nurnberg - Wurzburg is a nightmare. The bit Wurzburg - Frankfurt is much better than it used to be but still has some 2x2 sections. What day were you driving? Normally the right lane on the A3 is one big truck traffic jam. The A9 Nurnberg-Munich is excellent unless its holiday season and it can be completely jammed.
> 
> From NL to Switzerland or Southern-Germany I prefer the A61, especially with the new A74 connection at Venlo.


I drive it all the time, traveling between Tirol and either Holland or Calais. I sometimes use A61, but at times it means going via Stuttgart which I don't like. Are you from Munich?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't really like A3 Aschaffenburg - Nürnberg as well due to the high truck volumes and 2x2 lanes, although it's better this year because there are less roadworks between Aschaffenburg and Würzburg. 

I prefer to drive via Kassel and Bamberg to Nürnberg to avoid traffic. 

A3 is also increasingly congested near Duisburg and Oberhausen. Traffic volumes are quite high for 2x3 lanes there, the annual average is near 130.000 vehicles per day which means the more busier months are likely at or over 140.000 vpd.


----------



## Road_UK

I hate that Kassel road. Very busy, steep and bendy in places. Also lots of freight traffic. I prefer the A3.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A3 and A7 have similar traffic volumes, the difference is A3 has it over 200 kilometers while A7 only about 50 kilometers and both are just as steep, though A7 is indeed more twisty. A7 south of Hattenbach is a breeze though, mostly 36.000 - 42.000 vehicles per day as opposed to A3 between Köln and Frankfurt with 68.000 - 94.000 vehicles outside the cities. A7 also carries substantially less truck traffic south of Hattenbach.


----------



## the_Aristocrat

Here is a video I recently made while driving on the Autobahn A2. Driving westbound on a rainy morning in the northern part of the Ruhr area in Germany. Due to a minor accident a short traffic jam develops with the German police already on the scene in a Volkswagen Passat Variant. The video takes us past Recklinghausen, Gelsenkirchen, Gladbeck and towards Bottrop.


----------



## the_Aristocrat

Des said:


> I don't, I've driven Munich-Amsterdam and Amsterdam-Munich many times and the A3 is so prone to huge delays. Especially the bit Nurnberg - Wurzburg is a nightmare. The bit Wurzburg - Frankfurt is much better than it used to be but still has some 2x2 sections. What day were you driving? Normally the right lane on the A3 is one big truck traffic jam. The A9 Nurnberg-Munich is excellent unless its holiday season and it can be completely jammed.
> 
> From NL to Switzerland or Southern-Germany I prefer the A61, especially with the new A74 connection at Venlo.


Often I come from the eastern part of the Netherlands and instead of the A3 I take the A4 & A45. Although is is slightly longer, there is quite less traffic and not so many speed limits (though they currently work on some parts of the A45). Maybe that is an option for you?


----------



## Isek

Drove the route A8 - A61 Munich - Koblenz last week and i do NOT recommend it! There are loads of constructions going on. On the A8 the stretches Augsburg - Leipheim and Ulm - Aichelberg are awful. At Stuttgart there is pure madness because of new pavements. Further there are several small nasty sites around Pforzheim. A61 has 3 major construction sites: the Rhine bridge and 3 really loooooong stretches between Mutterstadt and Stromberg. 

I guess that A3 is the better choice at the moment just having that nasty Nurnberg - Wurzburg stretch.


----------



## Road_UK

Thank you for agreeing with me.


----------



## Road_UK

Never knew that a time existed in Germany, where they used falling arrows on their signs. I know they did in Austria, there are still some left in the Graz area, but look what I found. They even used shorter lane markings, instead of the traditional long ones they have now.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The state of Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) submitted a preliminary list of projects for the next federal road plan of 2015.

Among the new projects are a widening of A2 to 2x4 lanes throughout the state, an extension of A39 from Salzgitter to A44 and an extension of A27 from Walsrode east to A2 somewhere in Sachsen-Anhalt.

Apart from the A2 widening, I assume the chances of building these other new links are remote, even though an A39 extension is not the craziest idea, it's about 20 kilometers shorter than A2 (Dortmund - Helmstedt) and serves a large area without motorways.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> Among the new projects are a widening of A2 to 2x4 lanes throughout the state, an extension of A39 from Salzgitter to A44 and an extension of A27 from Walsrode east to A2 somewhere in Sachsen-Anhalt.


Would the A39 extension be west of and somewhat parallel to the A7? Would the A27 extension serve Celle and Wolfsburg?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I assume the A39 extension will be something like this:










The A27 extension is less clear. They also call for an upgrade of B188 from Wolfsburg to Berlin, maybe A27 will merge into B188 somewhere east of Wolfsburg. It would make sense for the A27 extension to serve the city of Celle.


----------



## Zagor666

Better first connect Olpe with Kassel so that Cologne has a connection with Kassel.When you drive from Cologne direction east you always have to drive either north over Dortmund or south over Giessen and that sucks :bash:


----------



## mcarling

Zagor666 said:


> Better first connect Olpe with Kassel so that Cologne has a connection with Kassel.When you drive from Cologne direction east you always have to drive either north over Dortmund or south over Giessen and that sucks


I was just thinking the same, but it's not something for Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) to plan. In general, Paris - Berlin does not have a particularly direct route. The straight-line distance is about 860km but the shortest highway route is about 1050km. A direct connection between Olpe and Kassel would help.


----------



## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> I was just thinking the same, but it's not something for Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) to plan. In general, Paris - Berlin does not have a particularly direct route. The straight-line distance is about 860km but the shortest highway route is about 1050km. A direct connection between Olpe and Kassel would help.


Paris-Berlin is not all that bad with the existing routes via Hannover, Oberhausen, Cologne and Liege?


----------



## Zagor666

Maybe,but wth is the problem.They built the motorway from Werl to Meschede that nobody needs and the A49 south-west of Kassel that nobody needs and the motorway connection Giessen-Marburg that also nobody needs.With that money they could bild the A4 from Olpe to Kassel in 2X4 format.Its the same think with the A1,its absolutely unbeliavable that the Nürburgring as one of the major racing circuits in Europe doesn´t have a motorway connection :bash:they threw money out for connections that nobody needs and the motorways that should be build exist only on paper


----------



## Aphelion

As you can see on this map, as many as three parallell motorways to the A2 were once planned (A32 Nienburg-Magdeburg, A30 Bad Oeynhausen-Braunschweig and A35/A36 Bielefeld-Dessau). The A36 has partially been built as a four-lane B6 from Bad Harzburg to Bernburg, with an eastward expension as 2+1 on the way.


----------



## mcarling

snowdog said:


> Am I correct that the speed limits on the A2 between Dortmund and Berlin have been removed  ? 152 km's extra of unlimited Autobahn . Finally a victory for motorists rather than old annoyed dinosaurs... Thanks to the the FDP . Only dynamic speed limits potentially to conditions, no more crappy 120 km/h in the middle of the night .


Awesome!!! :banana: :cheers:


----------



## Road_UK

80 through the tunnel at Bochum and 130 after Braunschweig for 50 odd km.


----------



## snowdog

Road_UK said:


> 80 through the tunnel at Bochum and 130 after Braunschweig for 50 odd km.


German article I found:


> Jamaika kann nicht funktionieren. Während die Grünen die Autofahrer am liebsten gängeln zeigt die FDP, dass es auch einmal anders herum funktionieren kann. Der FDP Verkehrsminister Niedersachsens Jörg Bode hat nun alle Geschwindigkeits-Begrenzungen auf der vielbefahrenen A2 (Berlin, Hannover, Dortmund) gekippt. Dabei wurden alle Tempo-Limit-Schilder auf der 155 Kilometer langen Strecke abmontiert. Tempolimits werden, sofern es die Verkehrslage erfordert, von elektronischen Schilderbrücken angezeigt. Ein Vorschlag, den Mobil in Deutschland e.V. seit langem fordert und meint TOLL gemacht Herr Bode! Von uns gibt es hierfür die Goldmedaille für diese fast olympischen Verdienste am Autofahrer!


English translation ( automatic):


> Jamaica will not work. While the Greens prefer spoon-fed the driver the FDP shows that it can work also once the other way around. All speed limits on the busy A2 (Berlin, Hannover, Dortmund) has flipped the FDP Minister of Lower Saxony Joerg bode. Thus, all speed limit signs on the 155 km long route were removed. Speed limits are displayed where it requires the traffic situation, by electronic Schilderbrücken. A proposal for a long time called the mobile Germany e.v. and thinks Mr bode made TOLL! Of us there are the gold medal for this almost Olympic services to the driver for this! (Translated by Bing


Original Article:
http://www.bild.de/regional/hannover/joerg-bode/fdp-minister-kippt-tempolimit-25393596.bild.html



> It's just a victory for car vendors and hospital crewmembers


Dream on...


----------



## PLH

snowdog said:


> Am I correct that the speed limits on the A2 between Dortmund and Berlin have been removed  ? 152 km's extra of unlimited Autobahn . Finally a victory for motorists rather than old annoyed dinosaurs... Thanks to the the FDP . Only dynamic speed limits potentially to conditions, no more crappy 120 km/h in the middle of the night .


Strange considering the amount of EE drivers on A2, most of whom don't have a clue how to use a motorway (especially Poles), but on the other hand some of those speed limits, especially near Berlin, were really annoying when the traffic was low. VMS is a way better option.


----------



## Road_UK

This is true. The amount of accidents caused by Poles forced the Germans to display warning signs in Polish as well.


----------



## g.spinoza

snowdog said:


> Dream on...


edited post, better not start flames.


----------



## Road_UK

I want to know what you said now... (And probably agree)


----------



## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> I want to know what you said now... (And probably agree)


Best do that via pm.


----------



## Suburbanist

Germany has consistently lower accident controlled-access highway fatalities per billion passenger-km than Austria, Italy, France and Belgium.


----------



## Road_UK

Source? Because it's possibly fully contradictory to actual facts. Accident rates in Germany on motorways are rather high. On the Landstraßen a lot lower, butthis is where the Germans seem to have a hard time looking for their pedals and gear sticks. They get ridiculously slow.


----------



## Satyricon84

> Accident rates
> Despite the prevailing high speeds, the accident, injury and death rates on the Autobahn are remarkably low. The Autobahn carries about a third of all Germany's traffic, but injury accidents on the Autobahn account for only 6% of such accidents nationwide and less than 12% of all traffic fatalities were the result of Autobahn crashes (2009). In fact, the annual fatality rate (2.7 per billion km in 2009) is consistently lower than that of most other superhighway systems, including the US Interstates (4.5 in 2009). Furthermore, a 2005 study by the German government found that Autobahn sections without speed limits had the same accident rate as those with speed limits.


http://www.gettingaroundgermany.info/autobahn.shtml


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In the Netherlands only 5% of the traffic fatalities occur on motorways while they carry 50% of all kilometers driven.


----------



## Road_UK

And what are the main causes of Autobahn accidents in Germany? Also, since everybody here seems to rely more on vague statistics then actual practice, do we have any details on impacts, deaths and heavy injuries, in comparison to other countries, and also the role that high excessive speeds makes its contribution? Because in my job, I spend most time in accident related congestions in Germany. UK and Holland I spend my time in congestion due to sheer volume of traffic, but Italy and Germany is where in my view where the accidents are, and I see at least 1 or 2 a day when spending a driving day in Germany. A lot more then un other countries, and in France or Austria I hardly see any at all.


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## Satyricon84

ADAC statistics, I think they are enough impartial even for the most sceptics
http://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/rv_tempolimit_flyer_0807_30472.pdf

Comparision with other states
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_de_la_route_en_Europe

Statistic by Land
http://www.statistik-portal.de/Statistik-Portal/en/en_jb16_jahrtab40.asp

Cause of accident can be many, and more or less the same like in the rest of the Europe. At first place, distracted drivers, driving under drugs or alcohol effects, reckless driving, tailgating, weather conditions, etc... speeding is a variable reason of accident connected to other causes. A drunk driver is dangerous at 30Km/h like at 130 Km/h. 120 km/h with a Ferrari and 120 Km/h with a 1982 Ford Fiesta is not the same. A 18 yo freshman guy driving in autobahn at 100 Km/h could be more dangerous than a Schumacher driving 200 Km/h. If it's clear what i mean.... however these are things said and re-said in this thread


----------



## Road_UK

And I disagree on your comments about Schumacher. You may be good at driving at 240 kph but you only need a dozy Dutchman with a caravan swerving in front of you to **** your life up real good. And it won't even be your fault, apart from doing ridiculous speeds. Also I don't like these statistics as they always depends on circumstances and regions, and speed related accidents plays a high role in Germany. I see that everyday.


----------



## Satyricon84

^^ I wouldn't be so sure about Schumacher.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...l-Schumacher-drives-taxi-in-airport-dash.html  

In past, experienced sailors used to say they saw sea monsters to sink entire ships when they tried to cross the ocean :|... so I'm not astonished you don't believe statistics, even if they are what you asked....


----------



## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> And I disagree on your comments about Schumacher. You may be good at driving at 240 kph but you only need a dozy Dutchman with a caravan swerving in front of you to **** your life up real good.


The risk to me posed by the "dozy Dutchmen with caravans" is a linear function of my time on the road. Therefore I can cut my risk in half by driving twice as fast.


----------



## Kampflamm

Some speeds are just too high. I just love "Raser" who argue that they're able to control their cars at 240+ kmh. Well, problem is that not everyone is as experienced and awesome as you. As someone has mentioned, all it takes is one geezer to misjudge the distance and pull out in front of you...


----------



## cinxxx

Some pictures from A95 Munich - Garmisch-Partenkirchen


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr

The Kia Ceed 1.4L couldn't go more than this 

DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE - A95 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

The Autobahn ends, and we continue on B2


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr



DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr

And continue to Innsbruck


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_B2 by cinxxx, on Flickr

pictures from the road in Austria are here


----------



## panda80

11.









12.









13.









14.









15.









16.









17.
Dreieck Moseltal. We go on A602 to Trier from here:









18.


----------



## panda80

And few pics from A602, linking Trier with A1:
1.









2.









3.









4.









Trier is a wonderful place to visit, with a history of 2000 years.


----------



## Penn's Woods

panda80 said:


> Some pics from A1, between Dreieck Vulkaneifel and Dreieck Moseltal:
> 
> 8.


Does Germany use E-numbers only on reassurance signs (like the above), not at interchanges?


----------



## Luki_SL

^^The E-numbers in Germany are only on reassurance signs. At the interchanges, there are only motoway numbers


----------



## Suburbanist

Does someone know what is the specification of central guard rail barriers (flexible) for highways without fixed speed limits?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Driving across the longest suspension bridge in Germany:


----------



## flierfy

Suburbanist said:


> Does someone know what is the specification of central guard rail barriers (flexible) for highways without fixed speed limits?


DIN EN 1317

Richtlinien für passiven Schutz an Straßen durch Fahrzeug-Rückhaltesysteme


----------



## panda80

And if it's about bridges, some pics from under Kochertalbrucke, the highest in Germany:


----------



## cinxxx

I recorded with my GPS the road today from Bayreuth to Ingolstadt on A9
http://www.trackprofiler.com/track:bayreuth-ingolstadt-15-09-2012


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## cinxxx

Some pictures from Nürnberg to Bayreuth


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


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## cinxxx

DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

Bayreuth by cinxxx, on Flickr


Bayreuth by cinxxx, on Flickr


Bayreuth by cinxxx, on Flickr


Bayreuth by cinxxx, on Flickr


----------



## mcarling

Does anyone here know when the two A94 sections under construction (shown above in yellow) are expected to open? Also, is the second carriageway for the single carriageway section (shown above in pink) under construction? Has anyone here driven the A94/A8 between Munich and Linz this year?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe Heldenstein - Ampfing is almost finished. They built a new tunnel there for noise protection. 

Pastetten - Dorfen is only under construction for half a year, I don't think it'll be finished before 2015.


----------



## Luki_SL

cinxxx said:


> DE_A9 by cinxxx, on Flickr


I think that this part of A9 (Nurnburg-Hof) is the one of the best motorways in Germany


----------



## muc

mcarling said:


> Does anyone here know when the two A94 sections under construction (shown above in yellow) are expected to open?


Ampfing-Heldenstein looks indeed nearly finished. On Pastetten-Dorfen you don't see much. I recently flew over this area, there are only some isolated construction sites for bridges.


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> I believe Heldenstein - Ampfing is almost finished.





muc said:


> Ampfing-Heldenstein looks indeed nearly finished.


Does that mean we can reasonably expect an opening this year?


----------



## PascalPascal2010

mcarling said:


> Does anyone here know when the two A94 sections under construction (shown above in yellow) are expected to open? Also, is the second carriageway for the single carriageway section (shown above in pink) under construction? Has anyone here driven the A94/A8 between Munich and Linz this year?


Ampfing-Heldenstein opens in december this year, 1 km is already half-profile opened as B12


----------



## mcarling

PascalPascal2010 said:


> Ampfing-Heldenstein opens in december this year, 1 km is already half-profile opened as B12


Thanks.


----------



## Neverworld

Road_UK said:


> But that's my point: there is hardly any freedom on the Autobahns in Germany. Your freedom to drive as fast as you want either gets tampered by dropping down to 80 due to noise reductions, roadworks or congestion, or parts that are downgraded to set limits as low as 60. And the aggression, and your awareness that you have to maintain on their motorways, due to oncoming overtaking vehicles are unbelievable. Wouldn't you rather do a steady 130/140 in France all the way, and a chance to enjoy the countryside, with little or no aggression on the roads whatsoever?


I agree that there are many sections with a speed limit (I think roughly half, excluding road works). I actually didn't really notice any aggression, you just need to make sure not to stick to the left-most lane, something I do anyway, and you're fine. Actually, I was using that lane quite frequently but as long as you keep paying a bit of attention to your mirror (which I had time to do, as I didn't have to look at my speedometer), you hardly get any surprises at all.

I agree that France is also a lovely country to drive through. Costs a lot of money though, but I agree that the general state of the roads is (a lot) better. Still, last time I went there, I was in a traffic jam for 4 kilometers to pay for the road, which is annoying.


----------



## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> Wouldn't you rather do a steady 130/140 in France all the way, and a chance to enjoy the countryside, with little or no aggression on the roads whatsoever?


Absolutely not. I find driving in Germany much more pleasant than driving in France. The salient nice thing about driving in France is the abundance of high-quality rest stops.


----------



## Attus

As for me, "no limit" means the freedom that I don't need to check the speed frequently but can watch the road, the traffic, the mirror. 
However my standard notion about the German motorways is that "no limit does not mean that you may drive at any speed; it means that other cars will drive at any speed so that you have to be much more careful". 
Lots of German motorways have a standard and a surface quality which would be unacceptable in countries like Hungary. Although the secondary roads have much better quality in Germany then here, our motorways are pretty better than the German ones.
On the other side Germany has much more motorways than Hungary even related to the country size. And that's why visitors from less developed nations (especially from the ex-communist ones) admire the network: motorways here, motorways there, motorways everywhere.


----------



## verreme

Road_UK said:


> Wouldn't you rather do a steady 130/140 in France all the way, and a chance to enjoy the countryside, with little or no aggression on the roads whatsoever?


No way. I'd rather drive 160-180 km/h in autobahnen, even if I have to slow down from time to time due to highly justified reasons, than fall asleep in a boring-ass French motorway where everyone drives the same speed and cops pop out of the nowhere with laser _jumelles_ to ticket anyone driving 140 (or 120 in a 110, or 100 in a 90. A large portion of the French motorway network has lower-than-130 speed limits).


----------



## Wilhem275

Every time I read about the pleasure of going faster than 140 I ask myself:
1) Who the hell is paying for this people's fuel (can he pay mine too?)
2) Why I use to enjoy driving a sporty car on bendy hills and get as bored as **** by driving on motorways...

I usually keep 110, best compromise time/fuel... and thus I don't need to check the speedo every five seconds.
I don't see all that pleasure in going fast on a motorway, you just have to floor it and keep the wheel straight.


----------



## Beck's

Superkot634 said:


> *ChrisZwolle*
> I understand. It's hard to disagree, the infrastructure in this country is at a high level, not what in Poland. I heard somewhere that the national roads in Germany are in a similar state as in Poland, but it's probably a lie. I wanted to do a comparison, because we know that the roads in Poland are in poor condition.


It's true that German road infrastructure is defenitely better than in Poland, but saying that our national roads are poor is lie, lie and once again lie(sb, hwo says that has never driven on our national roads)!! Of course, some parts of them are in very poor condition with potholes, ruts etc., but around 60% of national roads in Poland are in good and very good condition. Is it the reason to hurraoptymism? I don't think so, howevere is not the reason to complain as well.


----------



## Road_UK

verreme said:


> No way. I'd rather drive 160-180 km/h in autobahnen, even if I have to slow down from time to time due to highly justified reasons, than fall asleep in a boring-ass French motorway where everyone drives the same speed and cops pop out of the nowhere with laser _jumelles_ to ticket anyone driving 140 (or 120 in a 110, or 100 in a 90. A large portion of the French motorway network has lower-than-130 speed limits).


What large portion. Only on urban motorways. And like Wilhelm says, what's the point driving that fast. And 140 is tolerated in France. A friend at the Gendarmes told me. It's not like you're going super slow.


----------



## Road_UK

Beck's said:


> It's true that German road infrastructure is defenitely better than in Poland, but saying that our national roads are poor is lie, lie and once again lie(sb, hwo says that has never driven on our national roads)!! Of course, some parts of them are in very poor condition with potholes, ruts etc., but around 60% of national roads in Poland are in good and very good condition. Is it the reason to hurraoptymism? I don't think so, howevere is not the reason to complain as well.


Apart from newly renovated or newly built N-roads, most of the national network is in a very bad shape. I know, and so does my van. Braking is extremely difficult in some areas due to God knows what stuff they put on the roads...
This is an international forum, so one will have to swallow a little criticism once in a while.

Edit. In all fairness, I have to add that a lot of German N-roads are nothing to write home about... Some of these roads are in very poor condition, au pair with Poland and Belgium, and unknown in the Netherlands.


----------



## Beck's

Road_UK said:


> Apart from newly renovated or newly built N-roads, most of the national network is in a very bad shape. I know, and so does my van. Braking is extremely difficult in some areas due to God knows what stuff they put on the roads...
> This is an international forum, so one will have to swallow a little criticism once in a while.
> 
> Edit. In all fairness, I have to add that a lot of German N-roads are nothing to write home about... Some of these roads are in very poor condition, au pair with Poland and Belgium, and unknown in the Netherlands.


I don't say they are perfect, cause they aren't but to be onest, they are not so bad(perhaps you have driven on local ones, which are bad). If you take a look on our map, you will see green colour(good and very good roads) dominating. Furthermore Polish institution responsible for N-roads network(GDDKiA) reposts that 60% are good, 20% are decent(not good, not bad) and 20% are really bad.

Edit: returning to German ones I believe that some part of N-roads are bad, but I mention fewer than in PL.


----------



## Neverworld

Wilhem275 said:


> Every time I read about the pleasure of going faster than 140 I ask myself:
> 1) Who the hell is paying for this people's fuel (can he pay mine too?)
> 2) Why I use to enjoy driving a sporty car on bendy hills and get as bored as **** by driving on motorways...
> 
> I usually keep 110, best compromise time/fuel... and thus I don't need to check the speedo every five seconds.
> I don't see all that pleasure in going fast on a motorway, you just have to floor it and keep the wheel straight.


I like to have the option. I have driven 110km/h on unrestricted stretches, just because I felt like it. I have driven 170km/h as well, because I felt like it. I like it that I can determine myself.

Fuel economy doesn't really bother me when on vacation.


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> A 10 kilometer, two-lane section of A98 opened in southwestern Germany today.


Three lanes are marked there in fact.


----------



## snowdog

Road_UK said:


> Edit. In all fairness, I have to add that a lot of German N-roads are nothing to write home about... Some of these roads are in very poor condition, au pair with Poland and Belgium, and unknown in the Netherlands.


Their lanes are far wider though than here, I certainly prefer driving over a German N road with old suface over a Dutch ''duurzaam veilig'' ruimed piece of **** with speedbumps, inability to overtake, and roundabouts every 2 minutes.

The surface may be rough on german roads yes, but who cares, as long as it's not 10cm ( or more!) rut like in Poland or deep potholes. Basically, as long as it doesn't make my car slam into the tarmac or affect the handing it's fine imho .

The Dutch speedbumps everywhere are 10x worse than the average German N road. The last time I was in Germany and was driving over N roads and through villages that's the first thing I noticed: Nice wide lanes, and no anti car tripe like speedbumps, chicanes, concrete blocks, etc...





Wilhem275 said:


> Every time I read about the pleasure of going faster than 140 I ask myself:
> 1) Who the hell is paying for this people's fuel (can he pay mine too?)
> 2) Why I use to enjoy driving a sporty car on bendy hills and get as bored as **** by driving on motorways...
> 
> I usually keep 110, best compromise time/fuel... and thus I don't need to check the speedo every five seconds.
> I don't see all that pleasure in going fast on a motorway, you just have to floor it and keep the wheel straight.


You go from A to B much faster... The point is, why go slower when you CAN go faster. I prefer to save 10-15 mins of my journey than the money in fuel it saves me. 110 and below are sleep inducing speeds on a motorway imho, at a higher speed I find it easier to keep more attention to driving. The only reason I can manage driving at the speed limit on a motorway is with cruise control, if I don't watch my speedo for only a couple of minutes I usually end up doing vmax + 20 or more in no time... I don't want to watch my speedo, just what happens in front of me and my mirrors...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Hamburg - Bremen*

The 4-year widening of the Autobahn A1 between Hamburg and Bremen has officially been completed today. The 1930s Autobahn has been widened from 4 to 6 lanes for more than 70 kilometers. It is a successful example of a PPP project. Another PPP project is the widening of A5 south of Karlsruhe, or the remaining part of A9 around the Schleiz area.


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 4-year widening of the Autobahn A1 between Hamburg and Bremen has officially been completed today. The 1930s Autobahn has been widened from 4 to 6 lanes for more than 70 kilometers. It is a successful example of a PPP project.


How can you seriously call it a success when you don't know the condition of the PPP contract?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's finished a decade earlier than if the German government would have done it via state finances. I call that a success for drivers.


----------



## Road_UK

It was needed, I remember how busy it was between Hamburg and Bremen when there were only 2 lanes. I also hated that road when the widening was taking place.


----------



## Aphelion

Very good news indeed! The remaining bit from Bremen to Cologne is being widened too, isn't it?


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's finished a decade earlier than if the German government would have done it via state finances. I call that a success for drivers.


At the expense of higher costs for the taxpayers. That's barely a success.


----------



## darko06

Why not driving fast at six-laned motorways in the country where 99% of drivers are disciplined? Two weeks ago I drove from Leipzig to Berlin (A9). From the interchange Dessau Ost to the Berliner Ring there was tempo 160 kmh in the right lane, 180 kmh in the central lane and more than 200 kmh in the left lane. Okay, there was no trucks at this time (it was Saturday afternoon). It was interesting to see cars with Italian register plates driving 200 kmh.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Another great news for all Autobahn lovers:

The construction of the next stretch of the A100 in Berlin can start! :banana: 

This will be the most expensive Autobahn stretch in Germany´s history! :uh:



> *Court okays contentious Berlin motorway*
> 
> 10 Oct 2012
> 
> *A German court has given the green-light for the controversial extension project on the A100 motorway in Berlin. The federal court in Leipzig dismissed the claims against the ongoing construction, but imposed a few conditions.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Federal Administrative Court on Wednesday rejected four lawsuits against the controversial project. But it said the Berlin parliament would need to do more to reduce the noise pollution for nearby residents, Berlin's Der Tagesspiegel reported.
> 
> Berlin's mayor Klaus Wowereit welcomed the verdict.
> 
> "I am excited about this unambiguous verdict, which provides clarity for the A100," he said. Wowereit said it was good for the economic development of the city that the judges had backed the Senate's position.
> 
> The court approved of the objectives of the motorway's construction, which include the relieving traffic in Berlin's centre.
> 
> The construction of the 3.2-kilometre section is estimated to cost between €452 million and €475 million - making it one of the most expensive stretches of motorway in Germany. The funding is expected to come from the federal government.
> 
> The extension has been a contentious issue in Berlin for some time and the subject of much wrangling between Wowereit's Social Democrats (SPD) and the Green party, who opposed construction.
> 
> In October 2011, coalition talks between the SPD and the Greens in Berlin fell apart over the issue, prompting the SPD to form a coalition with the Christian Democrats in order to proceed with construction plans.
> 
> The Local/sh


The stretch named as "16. Bauabschnitt" can be built now! :banana:


----------



## darko06

Great news.
When will the reconstruction of A115 (formerly AVUS) be finished?


----------



## Road_UK

darko06 said:


> Why not driving fast at six-laned motorways in the country where 99% of drivers are disciplined? .


And which country would that be?


----------



## keokiracer

Road_UK said:


> And which country would that be?


 The Netherlands of course :yes:.

Okay, I don't even believe that myself...


----------



## Road_UK

Well, the Dutch certainly seem to be more lane disciplined than the Germans. Used to be the other way round. I wish some people, especially the ones from eastern Europe would stop idealizing the Germans and their motorways. Speed isn't everything, and a lot of autobahns in the Heimat are lacking behind on those in other countries. Lack of hard shoulders on some is one thing...


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

darko06 said:


> Great news.
> When will the reconstruction of A115 (formerly AVUS) be finished?


^^
It is planned to finish this modernization at the end of this year. That´s 10 months earlier than previously planned.  

SOURCE (in German)

PICTURES from the whole construction site on the A115 (AVUS). :yes:


----------



## Penn's Woods

EDIT: This is for Road_UK.

Re "speed isn't everything": a few posts back, someone was talking about an Autobahn where the slowest lane moves at 160 km/h. My first reaction was, oh, great. I'm not comfortable above 80 mph (130ish?), not that I've ever driven in a place where that's legal, and perhaps my discomfort is because I've never driven in a place where that's legal, but I'm really not eager to try a road where doing 130 in the slow lane would make others perceive me as an annoyance....

Although far be it from me to assume that any given road in Germany at any given time is likely to include others who'd like to be allowed to drive at below 160 (or, frankly, who shouldn't be driving 160, if only because they're not used to it).


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> ...I wish some people, especially the ones from eastern Europe would stop idealizing the Germans and their motorways. Speed isn't everything, and a lot of autobahns in the Heimat are lacking behind on those in other countries....


Not just Eastern Europeans. (Linguistic pet peeve: Americans who say "the Autobahn," as if there's only one.)

But what's the Heimat?


----------



## Road_UK

It's German for home country, or fatherland. Germans who are proud of their country (and why shouldn't they be? Life goes on) refer to their country as their "Heimat". Same as Austrians, and the Tyrolians include the word Heimat in their folksongs a lot.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> EDIT: This is for Road_UK.
> 
> Re "speed isn't everything": a few posts back, someone was talking about an Autobahn where the slowest lane moves at 160 km/h. My first reaction was, oh, great. I'm not comfortable above 80 mph (130ish?), not that I've ever driven in a place where that's legal, and perhaps my discomfort is because I've never driven in a place where that's legal, but I'm really not eager to try a road where doing 130 in the slow lane would make others perceive me as an annoyance....
> 
> Although far be it from me to assume that any given road in Germany at any given time is likely to include others who'd like to be allowed to drive at below 160 (or, frankly, who shouldn't be driving 160, if only because they're not used to it).


I fully agree with you. I can't think of any autobahn where the slowest speed on the inside lane is moving at 160, unless of course it was night time or early Sunday morning. Freight traffic is limited to 80 km/h, and not all Germans drive fast. In fact, I think the majority will not exceed 140/160.


----------



## darko06

It is also true that when the speed limit occured (120 km, that was before Dessau on about 5 km long stretch) all drivers slowed down to 120 regardless of lane where they were driving. Again, that was at Saturday afternoon.


----------



## Road_UK

darko06 said:


> It is also true that when the speed limit occured (120 km, that was before Dessau on about 5 km long stretch) all drivers slowed down to 120 regardless of lane where they were driving. Again, that was at Saturday afternoon.


Yes, and then they don't move to the inside lane, and hog overtaking lanes. Is this the only time you have driven in Germany? You should do the A3 Köln-Nürnberg, or cruise around Munich or Hamburg, and see how disciplined they are. (not) --And they are a quite a few who do not obey speed limits. Same as anywhere else. Others drive too damn slow. Same as anywhere else. 

There is no country in the world where 99% of drivers are disciplined. And Germany doesn't even come close. Used to, but these times are long gone.


----------



## darko06

Two years ago I drove on A6 from Czech border to Autobahnkreuz with A7 and then on A7 to Ulm. From Czech border to Autobahnkreuz with A3 (and this part is only a four laned Autobahn) the tempo was 150 to 160 kmh . In working area speed limit was 100 kmh, and it was obeyed. The A7 had more speed limitations, on my opinion because of the pavement which is I assume 30-35 years old. From Ulm to Munich there were works on widening the old A9, on widened parts people usually drive 150 to 160. However, the A9 from Munich to Salzburg was major obstacle, traffic jams started 15 to 20 km before the Inntalautobahndreieck, and the rest after that Dreieck is an old and narrow yet repaved Reichsautobahn without hard shoulders and with speed limit of 120 kmh.


----------



## darko06

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> It is planned to finish this modernization at the end of this year. That´s 10 months earlier than previously planned.
> 
> SOURCE (in German)
> 
> PICTURES from the whole construction site on the A115 (AVUS). :yes:


Thanks.


----------



## cinxxx

darko06 said:


> ... the A9 from Munich to Salzburg was major obstacle, traffic jams started 15 to 20 km before the Inntalautobahndreieck, and the rest after that Dreieck is an old and narrow yet repaved Reichsautobahn without hard shoulders and with speed limit of 120 kmh.


I think you mean the A8.
And yes, I hate it, I even made some calculations, in summer, if you don't drive at night or very early in the morning, you're better off, driving on national and regional roads. The time is aprox the same, but at least you don't torture yourself and your car with stop and go.
Can you imagine Ingolstadt - Prien am Chiemsee in 4h30min. I surely can, when I actually arrived in Prien I barely caught the last 2 ships towards the Herreninsel, but for Fraueninsel there was no more time.


----------



## darko06

Thanks for correcting me.
Of course it was A8, all the way from Ulm to the Austrian border.


----------



## verreme

Penn's Woods said:


> EDIT: This is for Road_UK.
> 
> Re "speed isn't everything": a few posts back, someone was talking about an Autobahn where the slowest lane moves at 160 km/h.


I don't think that happens very often in Germany. Most people drive under that speed. And trucks can't go faster than 90 km/h. It may be difficult to see somebody driving under 160 km/h in the fast lane under certain conditions, but driving in Germany is not _that_ crazy.


----------



## Wilhem275

Maybe it'd better if we move here our chat about highway speed


----------



## thun

darko06 said:


> Thanks for correcting me.
> Of course it was A8, all the way from Ulm to the Austrian border.


No. There certainly war a section of A99 (Munich orbital) inbetween. Or a stretch of Munich city streets.


----------



## kato2k8

Road_UK said:


> I can't think of any autobahn where the slowest speed on the inside lane is moving at 160, unless of course it was night time or early Sunday morning.


A5 between Frankfurt and Darmstadt (4+4), A3 between Frankfurt and Hanau (part 4+4). Pretty regularly on both on the second lane from the left, i.e. overtakable. During the day. A6 bypass around Mannheim (3+3) occasionally too, outside rush hour. Probably couple others too.



Road_UK said:


> Yes, and then they don't move to the inside lane, and hog overtaking lanes.


Speed limits still apply to all lanes equally.


----------



## Rohne

The last days, the widening of another part of A3 near Würzburg (Randersacker - Biebelried) was finished.
And the first section of the "reconstruction" of A4 in Hesse was opened. This reconstruction includes adding of shoulders, realignment of some sections and adding of additional 3rd uphill lanes (more than 60% of each direction will get this 3rd lane, so it's more like a 5-6 lane widening of this Autobahn). In fact, the 'reconstruction' of this new section somehow was a true 6 lane widening  but payed from funds for reconstructions and not for widenings...


----------



## Road_UK

Used the new link A61 with the Dutch A73 for the first time. Nice little note: because the A61 is a little bit longer now before the Dutch border, the distance markers on the side of the road are being recounted in minus: 0.5, 0.0, -0.5, -0.0... Saves replacing all the poles I suppose.

From Austria I used A93, A8, A99 and A3. Only two notable major roads works on that route: A93 between Kufstein and Rosenheim 3 sets of roadworks, from which two are resurfacing works, and the other one they are doing repairs on the bridge that forms the border crossing between Germany and Austria. Judging by the German road signs on both sides of the border, the Germans are in charge of the works being carried out. Other works are the ongoing roadworks on A3 at Aschaffenburg. All works at Würzburg have now been cleared, and with a new stretch of 4 lanes, it looks very impressive indeed. I prefer A3 route over A61 any time.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Actually they just started on a new segment of A3 near Würzburg, but it may take a few weeks before any visible roadworks will be going on there.


----------



## Road_UK

Very early stages then. I haven't noticed anything yet...


----------



## snowdog

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> 
> environmentally valuable area.


hno:
Oh well, could be worse...

I personally think the money saved for NOT building a tunnel would be more valuable, but ah well...



> The delay of this project is due to the fact that the tunnel has to be outfitted with additional safety equipment to be able to be used by hazardous materials transportation (Gefahrguttransporte).
> 
> This wasn´t planned during the concept phase but the authorities changed their minds as they _suddenly_ realized that it would be "not so good" to send these transports through the villages around that tunnel :crazy:


Sounds like Holland :lol:.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The tunnel has more values than ecology alone. It also negates the issues with the steep raise in terrain, there is an escarpment where a plateau raises 200 meters over the valley. The old A4 used a narrow, steep and substandard alignment. The new tunnel reduces the grade, which is better for truck flow. A widening of the existing alignment could not adress these issues.

Current alignment:

img 264 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## keokiracer

Nostalgia 

BAB1 Hamburg - Bremen in 1988


----------



## ptscout

The little upgrade (7 years) Gruibingen - Mühlhausen could be finished the next time


----------



## JB Colbert

Only 7 years for 4 km...
Congratulations!

Which is the causes of this huge delay?


----------



## kato2k8

The delay is only by two years, originally envisioned finishing touches in late 2010.

Iirc it was mostly some problems with the tenders (and resulting judicial proceedings) that complicated it. That, and too much water from the hillsides.


----------



## JB Colbert

Ah, ok!
Five years for 4 km...


----------



## Positronn

ChrisZwolle said:


> The tunnel has more values than ecology alone. It also negates the issues with the steep raise in terrain, there is an escarpment where a plateau raises 200 meters over the valley. The old A4 used a narrow, steep and substandard alignment. The new tunnel reduces the grade, which is better for truck flow. A widening of the existing alignment could not adress these issues.
> ..


Will the speed limit be raised? It seeems like it was 120km/h in the Limitkarte I have.


----------



## flierfy

Positronn said:


> Will the speed limit be raised? It seeems like it was 120km/h in the Limitkarte I have.


Yes and no. The tunnel section and its approaches will certainly be limited to 80 km/h while the rest of this newly built stretch might not have an explicit speed limit at all.


----------



## Wilhem275

I don't understand why many Autobahn tunnels have such a low speed limit. What's the reason?


----------



## Road_UK

Safety and smog perhaps.


----------



## Wilhem275

Real safety or nanny safety?


----------



## Road_UK

Nanny safety of course. We live in a day and age where nobody is allowed to die.


----------



## Wilhem275

I can't imagine the Italian network with such a limit... on some motorways you'd be at a constant 80 :|

And the last thing I'd like, inside a tunnel, would be keeping the same speed as the truck on my side...


----------



## cinxxx

^^most drivers don't really keep those speed limit


----------



## ChrisZwolle

80 km/h in modern tunnels is a total joke. While German Autobahns are known for their high speeds, the tunnel speed limits are among the lowest in Europe.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

*Glorious victory against ecology-minded Autobahn-haters today! *

The Federal Administrative Court of Germany decided that the final A33 stretch near Bielefeld can be built now. This means that this Autobahn gap will be closed after fifty (50) years of planning. :yes:

Construction start is planned for 17.12.2012! :banana:
Length: 12,6 km
Costs: 140 millions €uro
Construction time: 2012 - 2019


SOURCE

*"Abschnitt 7.1"* has now construction approval. 
The other two stretches are already under construction. 
The opening of "Abschnitt 5B" is planned for 05.12.2012. :cheers:


----------



## HAWC1506

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> The Federal Administrative Court of Germany decided that the final A33 stretch near Bielefeld can be built now.


Biele-where? Doesn't exist.


----------



## Attus

^^ What do you mean by that? Bielefeld definitely exist, and the missing part of A33, too, is clearly visible on this map.


----------



## g.spinoza

Attus said:


> ^^ What do you mean by that? Bielefeld definitely exist, and the missing part of A33, too, is clearly visible on this map.


It's an internet meme, pretending that Bielefeld does not exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> It's an internet meme, pretending that Bielefeld does not exist:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy


Oh, never heard about  Thanks


----------



## Wilhem275

I didn't know about the conspiracy, but I'm really happy about this new discovery 

Actually, I don't know anyone who's been in such a place...


----------



## italystf

Wilhem275 said:


> I didn't know about the conspiracy, but I'm really happy about this new discovery
> 
> Actually, I don't know anyone who's been in such a place...


In Italy there is a such joke about Molise region (it's small and lacks of famous landmarks). However I've been there (passed on A14, never stopped though), I know people from there and who have been there.


----------



## g.spinoza

When I was younger I use to do the same joke about the city of Chieti (does it really exist?) until I met my girlfriend... and all her friends... who come from there 

But this is really off topic.


----------



## CNGL

In Spain it is said that Teruel does not exist. But I'm sure it exists, I've been there several times.

Back to topic:



ChrisZwolle said:


> The state of Bayern (Bavaria) released its wishlist for the Federal Road Plan of 2015.
> 
> These Autobahn projects are included:
> 
> * A99: construction Südring München


This is really needed. Any incomplete ring around an inland city hurts to my eyes. Oh, and I would say it's Südwestring according to what I see in Google Maps.


----------



## g.spinoza

CNGL said:


> This is really needed. Any incomplete ring around an inland city hurts to my eyes.


This is not the reason why it's needed.


----------



## cinxxx

^^It is a good reason too, people should not get eye sick :lol:
Just kidding


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Good news:

The modernisation of another stretch of the A13 north of Dresden is completed. 

Short video of the opening ceremony.

Autobahn: A13
Length: 7,2 km
Costs: 39 millions Euro
(Re-)Construction time: 2009 - 2012

This is the A13. This rebuilt stretch is located at the southern end of the A13.


----------



## panda80

Will they move to another section? There are still substandard sections on A13.


----------



## Aphelion

Construction of another part of the A14 will commence next summer. The stretch is from Groß Warnow to AS Karstädt (planned exit numbers 10 and 11, from north to south).

Map:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.19266&lon=11.66911&zoom=13&layers=M

Sources:
http://www.nnn.de/nachrichten/lokal..._ttnewscHash=0d00a5986a2090b696ed37e01c8b6e84
http://www.maerkischeallgemeine.de/...eginn-bei-Karstaedt-fuer-Mitte-naechsten.html
http://www.welt.de/newsticker/dpa_n...uer-A14-durch-Brandenburg-im-Sommer-2013.html


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

panda80 said:


> Will they move to another section? There are still substandard sections on A13.


^^
The modernisation of the last stretch in Sachsen (Radeburg - AD Dresden-Nord) is already approved but nobody knows when the works on this 9 km stretch will start. 

I don´t know what the situation of the A13 in Brandenburg is.


----------



## Zagor666

g.spinoza said:


> It's an internet meme, pretending that Bielefeld does not exist:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy


----------



## Agnette

From ferry in Kiel to motorway [215] towards Hamburg:


----------



## kosimodo

Snowy in Cologne?


----------



## MattiG

kosimodo said:


> Snowy in Cologne?


Impressive. Two centimeters?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Osnabrück - Bremen*

The third lane opened to traffic today on A1 northbound from Vechta to the Ahlhorner Heide interchange with A29. Southbound traffic already had 3 lanes.


----------



## cinxxx

I think there was another opening on the A94, some 4 km I think, I now remembered I heard on the radio this week. It was also said that ecologists oppose to it for many years with all their strength but until now with no success on blocking it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

High on my wishlist for Germany. It would make Zwolle - Bremen possible in just 2 hours. For long-distance traffic however, A30-A1 via Osnabrück is still a fast route. But B213 has one of the highest truck shares in Germany, with as much as 40%. All village thoroughfares have been eliminated though. I only take this route during weekends because then it's free of trucks. Passing is not safely possible on most of the route due to curvature, sightlines and fairly heavy traffic. 

The Hasetalautobahn was planned in the 1970s, but it may still be constructed as an _Autobahnähnliche Straße_ (motorway-like road). Only the section between the border and A31 and around Cloppenburg is currently a 4-lane highway. Some very small parts have 2+1 lanes, but most is a two-lane road with traffic lights.


----------



## MichiH

Agnette said:


> Can anybody show me details of the project of [A30] overpass in Bad Oeynhausen?
> http://binged.it/U5G23e


The first section from AS Bad Oeynhausen-Nord (L772) to AS Bad Dehme (future B61) will be opened end of 2013 (about 1,7km). The other twp sections will be opened in 2016.


----------



## MichiH

Agnette said:


> And what about E233 road (A37)NL/DE(402) border - Meppen - Cloppenburg - Bremen reconsruction situation?
> http://bit.ly/12Ul77f


The last sentence of the article "Etwa im Jahr 2015 könnte mit dem Ausbau der 83 Kilometer langen Strecke begonnen werden." means, that the construction could start perhaps in 2015.

I guess this is not realistic. In best case the construction of the first section will start in 2018.


----------



## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> The first section from AS Bad Oeynhausen-Nord (L772) to AS Bad Dehme (future B61) will be opened end of 2013 (about 1,7km). The other twp sections will be opened in 2016.


Geez, talk of slow-moving works. It is not like they are tunneling under the Harz...


----------



## homeway

hi Folks,

Im planning a route from Wien to Wetzlar in late January.
Im pretty shure You know which Autobahnen are congested and which have less traffic.
Can You plz suggest which Autobahnen should I choose to avoid heavy traffic if possible to do the fly?

Thanx


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ There aren't many alternatives not taking you for a long detour.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The only real alternative is simply to follow A3 all the way to Aschaffenburg and then A45. There is not really that much congestion on regular days on that route, since several roadworks between Würzburg and Aschaffenburg were completed last year. There are not really any alternatives worth considering, even the smallest Autobahn detour via Bamberg - Fulda - Hattenbach already adds 50 kilometers to your trip.


----------



## g.spinoza

Maybe he can avoid Frankfurt by taking A7 in Würzburg and A5 in Bad Hersfeld, adding "only" 40 km. It could be worth depending on traffic in A45.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The southern part of A45 has the lowest traffic volumes of the entire route, mostly 30 000 - 40 000 vehicles per day. It's not really worth avoiding for traffic reasons.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> The only real alternative is simply to follow A3 all the way to Aschaffenburg and then A45. There is not really that much congestion on regular days on that route, since several roadworks between Würzburg and Aschaffenburg were completed last year. There are not really any alternatives worth considering, even the smallest Autobahn detour via Bamberg - Fulda - Hattenbach already adds 50 kilometers to your trip.


Even though A3 is my favorite route through cross country Germany, I'd still avoid it when traveling on Saturdays in wintertime when they have the big change in the Alps, and the entire route between Cologne and Austria is virtually congested both ways. Yesterday they have had mega problems particularly around Nürnberg, Würzburg and Munich. I know, I was in it myself, and traffic information reporters on the radio were reading out novels.


----------



## MichiH

homeway said:


> Im planning a route from Wien to Wetzlar in late January.
> Im pretty shure You know which Autobahnen are congested and which have less traffic.


There is no alternative to the A3/A45 except there is a total closure.

The AADT is only ~60.000 vehicles per day on the four-lane sections, and ~75.000 on the six-lane sections near Nürnberg, Würzburg and Aschaffenburg. The traffic on the A45 is less than on the A3.

There are also no "big" constructions. The next "big" construction (widening to six lanes) will start this spring.


----------



## homeway

Road_UK said:


> Even though A3 is my favorite route through cross country Germany, I'd still avoid it when traveling on Saturdays in wintertime when they have the big change in the Alps, and the entire route between Cologne and Austria is virtually congested both ways. Yesterday they have had mega problems particularly around Nürnberg, Würzburg and Munich. I know, I was in it myself, and traffic information reporters on the radio were reading out novels.


Thank You all for replying

to Road_UK:
You wrote that in Winter on weekends, especially on Saturdays there are congestions on A3.
So You say that it is strongly recommended to travel on weekdays this time of year?

All You say that A3/A45 Autobahnen have average or low traffic and have no major reconstructions. This is very useful information.

I have some other questions:
Does A3 or A45 have any speed limitations?
Plz guys if You can give me info which sections have speed limits.
And ... what do you think about (if on no speed limit sections) that Im planning driving around 150-160 km/h? 
Do you consider this speed reasonable for long hours driving keeping it constantly?
What do you know about passenger cars' average speed on this route?
Are there a lot of drivers speeding around 200 km/h or anything like that?
Will I be able to keep the planned speed or due to A3/A45 are only 2+2 profile I will have to pass trucks almost all the time and because of other sedans with significantly higher speed I will change lanes a lot?

Thank You for helping!


----------



## Road_UK

homeway said:


> Thank You all for replying
> 
> to Road_UK:
> You wrote that in Winter on weekends, especially on Saturdays there are congestions on A3.
> So You say that it is strongly recommended to travel on weekdays this time of year?


That's right. I'd say Sundays is probably the best day to travel when you miss out on freight and most of the tourist traffic. Saturday is when people come and go from and to the ski resorts in the Alps, resulting in extremely heavy traffic on all through routes from and to the north, particularly the A3.


----------



## Patrick

homeway said:


> I have some other questions:
> Does A3 or A45 have any speed limitations?
> Plz guys if You can give me info which sections have speed limits.
> And ... what do you think about (if on no speed limit sections) that Im planning driving around 150-160 km/h?
> Do you consider this speed reasonable for long hours driving keeping it constantly?
> What do you know about passenger cars' average speed on this route?
> Are there a lot of drivers speeding around 200 km/h or anything like that?
> Will I be able to keep the planned speed or due to A3/A45 are only 2+2 profile I will have to pass trucks almost all the time and because of other sedans with significantly higher speed I will change lanes a lot?
> 
> Thank You for helping!


This is a helpful map:
http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Limitkarte.pdf
Legend:
http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/LegendeLimit.pdf
it's from 2009 though, but it won't have changed much since then.

Normally, you should be able to drive comfortable at your wished speed for most parts. Only section to take more care imo is the looong 2x2-stretch between Nürnberg and Würzburg, the left lane can be very packed there.


----------



## ajch

From a holiday trip past end of year to Köln, Bonn, Düsseldorf

photos taken 31th December in the morning, going from Köln to Bonn (A555) and later returning to Düsseldorf (A45)


----------



## homeway

Patrick said:


> This is a helpful map:
> http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Limitkarte.pdf
> Legend:
> http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/LegendeLimit.pdf
> it's from 2009 though, but it won't have changed much since then.
> 
> Normally, you should be able to drive comfortable at your wished speed for most parts. Only section to take more care imo is the looong 2x2-stretch between Nürnberg and Würzburg, the left lane can be very packed there.


thanx

I have checked die Limitkarte.pdf
It really says almost the entire A3/A45 is no speed limit, except some urban sections. 
However there is a weird thing about this map, it has sections with speed limit data not available (colored grey), which I don't understand. How could not a map maker have information covering all sections? Is there any other source for getting info about missing sections? 

When a speed limited section ends what roadsign does tell the driver that "fun is back"? Do they use for this purpose the standard "all limitations end" sign, you know the white circle crossed a black diagonal?


And of course ... when some is speeding "at will" how many Hinweisschilder or forecast signs do they give and at what distances before getting to the "real" beginning of the speed limited section? You know what I'm talking about, is there any forecasting sign system (counting down for example 1000m to ... then 500m to ... then start of the signed section) to tell you in time that you should gently hold your horses back in order to have a civilized braking maneuver?


----------



## muc

> However there is a weird thing about this map, it has sections with speed limit data not available (colored grey), which I don't understand. How could not a map maker have information covering all sections?


It looks to me like this map was not made by a commercial map maker but just by some Autobahn enthusiast as a hobby. He might indeed not have had all information. Also some stretches might have been under construction for repair or upgrade at the time the map was made (e.g. A8 Munich-Augsburg) and it was not clear what the speed limits would be afterwards.



> When a speed limited section ends what roadsign does tell the driver that "fun is back"? Do they use for this purpose the standard "all limitations end" sign, you know the white circle crossed a black diagonal?


Correct. There is also a variation of this sign which also has the speed limit being cancelled written in grey on it.



> And of course ... when some is speeding "at will" how many Hinweisschilder or forecast signs do they give and at what distances before getting to the "real" beginning of the speed limited section? You know what I'm talking about, is there any forecasting sign system (counting down for example 1000m to ... then 500m to ... then start of the signed section) to tell you in time that you should gently hold your horses back in order to have a civilized braking maneuver?


Usually there is no prior warning. Whatever speed you go you are supposed to look ahead far enough to react to speed limit signs in time.
Only for very low speed limits like 80km or 60km (e.g. for road construction) they will usually slow you down gradually.


----------



## Luki_SL

ajch said:


> photos taken 31th December in the morning, going from Köln to Bonn (A555)


It`s the oldest motorway in Germany, which was rebuilt to 2x3?


----------



## Stahlsturm

homeway said:


> Does A3 or A45 have any speed limitations?


Coming from the austrian border there's several stretches of speed limits. One past Passau (120 and 100), one past Regensburg (also 120 and 100) and a rather long one past Nürnberg (120). There used to also be a long construction area past Würzburg but I think they are done by now so I don't know if there's a limit now or not, likely there is. 

However, as long as you stay less than 20 kmh over the speed limit they'll never even bother pulling you over anyways or bother sending you a camera pic. My experience anyways


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Einhausung Köln-Lövenich. They finished this with 2x3 lanes in late December.


----------



## emyrr3096

MichiH said:


> That's not so easy because there are many information .
> I can try to post import news like start and completion of constructions.
> 
> The Autobahn has 1 tunnel, 3 lanes for each direction, route through the city, noise protection,...
> 
> But the most important reason for the long construction time are the costs. There are only 30 million &#128; available in 2013 and 50 million &#128; in 2014. And this money is a very big quotient of the German infrastructure budget.
> 
> A lot of money is need for preservation of the existing roads especially for the old bridges which were built in the 1960th. We do not have enough money for new roads projects. The number of new projects is very low in comparison to the demand.


Ok thanks. But that's so expensive i think. Ok thats the tunnel will build there. 
About how many lanes, noise protection is not really big cost maybe? The production and the construction cost is the big reason for how expensive is it.


----------



## MichiH

emyrr3096 said:


> The production and the construction cost is the big reason for how expensive is it.


The problem is, that the Autobahn is in the middle of the city. See OSM: > click <.


----------



## emyrr3096

MichiH said:


> The problem is, that the Autobahn is in the middle of the city. See OSM: > click <.


Ich vergesse:hahano:
U not said that's autobahn is in the middle of the city beforekay: 
Now, I understand why the autobahn is really really expensive to build :cheers:


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ 30 million euro for all road constructions? In Italy you can build less than 1 km of autostrada with 30M.
> 
> Maybe you meant 30 billion? 3 billion?


Sorry for my late answer, I havn't seen this post before.

The 30 million € are only for this A100 project. 1km of the 16th A100 section costs about 150 million €.


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## wildthing121675

It has long been a dream of mine to cruise on the Autobahn. Ever since I was a kid and first saw pics of them somewhere I have been fascinated with highways around the world and the Autobahns of Germany are my favorite and a dream of mine to cruise on. The Alarm Fur Cobra 11 video game-- or Crash Time here in the States only makes my desire to cruise these beautiful highways stronger. 

wildthing


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## Stahlsturm

wildthing121675 said:


> It has long been a dream of mine to cruise on the Autobahn.


You can't really "cruise" here most of the time. Way too much darn traffic.


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## cinxxx

I just had a share of sporty driving yesterday, Ingolstadt to Regensburg, and we were late to a meeting at Conti. The driver, a project leader at Audi, drove 220-240 with an Audi A1 S Line. 

It was pretty tiring for all of us, even he said it's not that much fun, you have to be very careful. On the A9 it's pretty comfy, but the A93 is pretty curvy.


----------



## Wilhem275

That's an Audi, of course it's not that much fun. Understeer, understeer, understeer! :lol:


More seriously, as a driving enthusiast I don't see any fun in taking up high speed on motorways. At first it can be exciting, but then it's just very tiring because you have to be always incredibly careful, and, in the end, actually pretty boring. The driver is just doing what a brick left on the pedal would do...
Nonetheless I may like trying a quick run on a low traffic Autobahn, once in a while.

But a nice curvy road, in the mountains, with the right car... and definitely not an Audi, believe my direct experience


----------



## cinxxx

Hey, I have an Audi too


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## Wilhem275

I understand your pain :troll:

J/k, they have other good points, but sporty feeling... absolutely not :|


----------



## cinxxx

Well, my 12 year old A4 (B5) is not really sporty, but with 115 hp it's not bad. What do you like/drive?


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## hofburg

hm, since when audi doesn't have a sporty feeling? or it must be a porsche for that purpose?


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## Wilhem275

Actually I think VAG has -today- very good engines, although they are often killed by extra long gears... but that's a common problem today, with all the struggle for low emissions.
Recently I drove a C4 with a 1.6 HDi @92 hp, which would not be a bad engine, but in that specific setup was terrible due to long gears and artificially late engine response.

In 5 years we had an A6 B6 with 3 litres V6 TDI (215 hp but I may be wrong) + tiptronic and an A5 Sportback with the same V6 (@ 233 hp, if I'm not wrong again) + double clutch gearbox. Both AWD.
A6 was pretty comfy, SB was not. Too stiff, they made some mistakes in the setup of that model; A4 B8 is roughly the same car and doesn't have the same problems.

My father liked them, because he doesn't search for driving feeling... I tried many times having fun with them, but with poor results.
Main problems are the overhang engine (911 vs. Boxster, anyone? ) and the general setup of steering and suspensions, which are specifically designed to avoid transmitting anything to the driver.
Feeling is everything in driving fun, you don't need extreme power nor a stiff kart setup... you need to feel what the wheels are doing via your hands and buttocks, not looking at the speedometer 

Audi is specialized in what is called "apparent quality": lots of LEDs, lots of well built soft plastics. Market asks for that, they give that.
The brand is successful, but really not among driving enthusiasts...


If I needed a comfy luxury car, I'd go with Benz: they still do a great research in safety, innovation and ergonomy. Or Volvo, or I'd give a try to the late Lancia Thema/Chrysler 300, which turned out to be a great luxury car.

Now we have a Passat, 2 litres TDI: nice engine, smooth ride, but a very "average car": nothing great, nothing terrible. The perfect VW.
If I had to buy something from VAG, it'd be a Skoda: good quality for an honest price. Today's Skodas are what VW brand is supposed to do, IMO.


The most enjoyable thing I've driven was a Giulietta with only 105 hp (but 320 Nm...). Very responsive and communicative car but soft and well built enough to be used as a quality everyday car, a good C-segment overall. And finally without being the "classic" self-destroying Alfa :lol: 
After an year with the Sportback, that Giulietta was like a blessing from heaven for the petrolhead I am 


Unluckily emissions rules have killed the engine response for every brand; and the market is asking for cars to be as soulless as a fridge, so finding out drivers' cars among standard productions is harder and harder...
We keep as a spare car an old '97 Lancia Y with 60 hp. That was born as a comfortable and quite citycar; but compared to today's cars (even A LOT more powerful) that's a kicking sporty animal.
What's more fun: a 800 kg-60 hp car with immediate gas response and 14" wheels, or a 1,5 ton with 150 hp, /25 tyres, and a five seconds lag?

About nice driving feeling on ordinary modern cars: Alfa, Mazda thanks to the research for lightness and driving pleasure, probably BMWs but I have not enough experience with them; some Nissans, some other Japanese brands but it depends on the model. Sport versions of Renault.
My favourite at all is the MX-5, which I'm willing to buy in a few years. A car designed to give a great driving experience without the need for extra power or complicated technology.


Wow, what a post. Never tickle the petrolhead :lol:
(actually I moderate what's probably the most important Italian forum about cars )


----------



## Pannyers

I got an MX-5 (2011); it's nice driving, also for daily trafic.

But let's go back ontopic.


----------



## Stahlsturm

Wilhem275 said:


> Lancia Thema


My dad used to have one of those. That was one killer car. I still miss it. Today I drive a 2003 Alfa Romeo 156 Gulietta (the 166 HP version) and I can promise you, I'll drive that car until it disintegrates under my arse, hahaha.


----------



## g.spinoza

Stahlsturm said:


> My dad used to have one of those. That was one killer car. I still miss it. Today I drive a 2003 Alfa Romeo 156 Gulietta (the 166 HP version) and I can promise you, I'll drive that car until it disintegrates under my arse, hahaha.


One of the very few Germans with an Italian car. When I lived in München, the only Italian cars with German plates I spotted were owned by Italian immigrants (I remember one with the wonderful plate R OM 753) or ultra-customized Fiat Puntos.


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## cinxxx

I have to say, I see a lot of Fiat 500s. Seems the model caught pretty well here.


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## flierfy

The increase in road fatalities in 2011 turns out to be a one-off as road safety in Germany last year improved again. A record low of 3'606 fatalities is reported for the year 2012. That's 10% less than the year before. These numbers prove that the long term trend of improving road safety in Germany remains intact.


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## homeway

hi Guys!

I did my fly (A3/A45), did it pretty well.
Some of You wrote that six lane widening projects will be launched on A3 around March.
Could You plz tell me and the community on which sections and exactly when will be those megaconstructions launched and how long will they take to be completed.

thx


----------



## MichiH

homeway said:


> Some of You wrote that six lane widening projects will be launched on A3 around March.
> Could You plz tell me and the community on which sections and exactly when will be those megaconstructions launched and how long will they take to be completed.


The next projects are the 8.0km section from _Kauppenbrücke_ to _Rohrbrunn_ (April 2013 to October 2015; about 100 Mio €; 4 lanes for direction Nürnberg; 3 lanes to Frankfurt; see OSM) and the 5.4km section from _Würzburg-Heidingsfeld_ to _Mainbrücke Randersacker_ (October 2013 to end of 2017; 170 Mio €; 3 lanes to Nürnberg; 4 lanes to Frankfurt; see OSM).

You can get more information on the German forum: > click <.

The begin and completion dates are based on the latest information. But in Germany it is normal that this dates are delaying.


----------



## snowdog

Alqaszar said:


> Some Germans also think that they have right-of-way when they use the left lane with high speeds. In a situation where the right lane is densely used by trucks etc. (avg. speed around 90 km/h in reality), it is of course legal to overtake with at least 110 km/h.


Any driver who changes lane has to give right of way to anyone already there, if someone has to slam their brakes because you pull out in front of them you are in the wrong!


> So relatively slow car can use the left lane for many kilometers, given the high density of truck traffic on some stretches of the Autobahn.


Only for an overtake, if you aren't overtaking at that moment you need to bugger off to the right, I wish they doubled the fines for not keeping to the right!


> Some drivers get impatient in such cases, since they think it is their right to drive at high speeds. This lack of intelligence is often very visible to the outside, because it correlates with the brand of the automobile; Audi, BMW, sometimes Mercedes, often enough Volkswagens (company cars!) and of course douchemobiles like Porsche etc.


So people driving luxury cars are less intelligent, way to generalise...

How about I turn it around, the ones who don't respect the right of way or drive extremely slow are always small eco tin cans ( usually the tax free ones) or mini-mpv's.

Anyhow... A lot of people do far higher speeds than 160, if I drive 160 on cruise control when going to Poland, I get people overtaking me at easily 50 km/h faster. And Sometimes you're in a train of nice quick driving cars going 180-220 km/h, ironically, mostly BMW's/Audi's but Saloon/Estate cars in general... I prefer nippy drivers than old granps in his Suzuki Alto or Opel Agila venturing out from his town.


----------



## Nordic20T

Sorry guys that I interrupt your discussion, but I have a question concerning a completely different topic. 

Is it a good idea to try out the following route on next friday? How dangerous is B12 really? Might there be congestions?
A96 - A99 - A94 - B12 - A8 Wels

Alternatively I'd take A92, A3 and A8 as usual. 

Thanks for your advices!


----------



## cinxxx

^^I drove on A94 and B12 until Burghausen. It was ok, there were trucks too, and not many chances of overtaking on B12.
Some pictures here http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157629583382336/with/7135133815/

I also want to drive from Ingolstadt to Venice on Friday, hopefully it won't be very crowded...


----------



## muc

> How dangerous is B12 really? Might there be congestions?


Usually no real congestions but you'll be driving at 80 behind a truck most of the time. This is tempting a lot of car drivers to overtake at places where they shouldn't and possibly get into confict with the equally dense opposing traffic. This made it one of the deadliest roads in Germany (350 casualties in 20 years).
Just relax and stay behind your truck. It doesn't make much sense to overtake anyway as you'll soon be stuck behind the next truck. You won't gain any significant time.


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## Stahlsturm

g.spinoza said:


> Figures are reversed. 70% drive faster than 150 and 30% slower. So what I wrote is true and what you wrote is not.


München - Garmisch is a bit untypical for Germany though. When you look at it on a map you see that it basically ends and so there's no through traffic (which is what most trucks in Germany are) so I believe you straight away that there were hardly any trucks. The only reason for this motorway was to build a nice race track for the rich people living in the southern suburbs of München.


----------



## Suburbanist

Stahlsturm said:


> München - Garmisch is a bit untypical for Germany though. When you look at it on a map you see that it basically ends and so there's no through traffic (which is what most trucks in Germany are) so I believe you straight away that there were hardly any trucks. The only reason for this motorway was to build a nice race track for the rich people living in the southern suburbs of München.


I disagree. They could extend it into Austria.


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## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> I disagree. They could extend it into Austria.


But they're not.


----------



## darko06

And probably they never will.


----------



## mcarling

darko06 said:


> And probably they never will.


The future lasts a long time. I believe that tunnel boring costs will continue to fall and that eventually (perhaps 20-30 years from now), the A95 might be extended to intersect with the Austrian A12. Such a highway might someday extend (mostly underground) all the way to Milan.


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## Road_UK

There is already a link between Munich and Innsbruck. Why upset all the locals and pay a lot of money for another one? Wouldn't it be more interesting to extend the A7 into Austria via Reutte and Fernpass? That way there will be a link straight from Stuttgart and Würzburg, relieving a lot of traffic from the Munich approaches, and the never ending bottleneck and congestions due to blockabfertigung and Fernpass queues will finally be cleared. Also the Arlberg tunnels and the Bregenz situation might change a little.


----------



## mcarling

I don't think a tunnel between Garmisch and Telfs would upset the locals very much. It might make some of them very happy.

Anyway, I was not opining on which possible future north-south tunnel would be best. Rather, I was opining that tunnel boring costs will continue to decline and that, eventually, there will be more north-south tunnels under the Alps. Therefore, I would not be too quick to forever rule out any particular possible route, for example, an extension of the A95.

While it's not something I expect, I even would not rule out the possibility that Germany and Italy might someday decide to pay for a tunnel (perhaps for safety reasons limited to future fully automated self-driving cars) under Austria or Switzerland without any exits in Austria or Switzerland. The future lasts a long time.


----------



## Wilhem275

Building a full alpine bypass, with no service to A or CH, would be a technical hassle with few advantages...

And the Milan to Munich route is already there, pretty straight (and probably straighter than via A95), via Bregenz. You just need to build a damn 3 km link between A14 (A) and A13 (CH)... whose absence is still a mistery to me.



Road_UK said:


> There is already a link between Munich and Innsbruck. Why upset all the locals and pay a lot of money for another one? Wouldn't it be more interesting to extend the A7 into Austria via Reutte and Fernpass? That way there will be a link straight from Stuttgart and Würzburg, relieving a lot of traffic from the Munich approaches, and the never ending bottleneck and congestions due to blockabfertigung and Fernpass queues will finally be cleared. Also the Arlberg tunnels and the Bregenz situation might change a little.


Yep, the A7 link would be way more interesting. Even without a full highway, the new Fernpass road is pretty nice, but the toughest part is still there.



mcarling said:


> to pay for a tunnel (perhaps for safety reasons limited to future fully automated self-driving cars)


We already got them, they're called trains :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Road_UK

A lot of Munich - Milan freight traffic use Brenner to avoid customs clearance in Switzerland. I know, because I'm one of them even in a van. Calais - Italy either via Brenner or Mont Blanc, if I'm empty I'll get back via A2 in Switzerland.


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## Wilhem275

Yep, but you'll agree that to solve this issue a quick war to gain control of Swiss borders is way cheaper than building a new highway tunnel...


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## mcarling

Wilhem275 said:


> Yep, but you'll agree that to solve this issue a quick war to gain control of Swiss borders is way cheaper than building a new highway tunnel...


I would not agree. The war against Iraq cost more than $1,000,000,000,000.


----------



## MichiH

kiat7272 said:


> is there any speed limits in Autobahn?
> because I heard it has no speed limits...


About fifty percent of the German Autobahns are limited. The rest is unlimited ("Richtgeschwindigkeit" or "advised speed limit" 130km/h).


----------



## MichiH

mcarling said:


> Are there long-term plans to further extend the A46? If so, to where? Joining the A44 at Burghasungen seems logical, but it's only a guess. Are there any plans to join the two separate A46 sections?


There were plans in the 1970s to extend the A46 as a motorway. There are still plans, but not as an Autobahn. The section AS Bestwig to AS Nuttlar is the last A46 part.

The next section from the A46 end near Nuttlar to the B480 north of Brilon (see OSM) is planned with urgent demand as B7n with only one carriageway (I guess it will get 3 lanes). The plan-approval procedure ("Planfeststellungsverfahren") has not yet started. So there is no chance to start construction until 2020.

The next 2 sections are from Brilon to Alme (including Alme bypass) and from Alme to Wünnenberg. Both sections are only further demand.

The following step is the Wünnenberg bypass (see OSM). It is planned to start construction in 2013. The bypass will be equipped with 3 lanes. The B480 to the interchange with A33 and A44 is already grade-separated.

The planned B7n and B480 projects are within the old A46 corridor until south of Wünnenberg. The B480 bypasses Wünnenberg in the west. The A46 was planned as an eastern bypass of Wünnenberg, crossing the A44, going ahead to Beverungen and Uslar, crossing the A7 near Nörten-Hardenberg, going to Bad Lauterberg and ending at the A38 west of Nordhausen. The planned B243 construction is within the old A46 corridor from the border between Lower Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt to the A38.

You can see all old and current Autobahn plans within this map: http://autobahnatlas-online.de.

Until 2015 or 2016 our government is disposing a new Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan for the years 2015 to 2030. I suspect, that several projects will be canceled .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Until 2015 or 2016 our government is disposing a new Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan for the years 2015 to 2030. I suspect, that several projects will be canceled .


Is it possible to add new projects to the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015-2030 in a later stage? 

If I understand correctly, the states can submit their wish list until late 2013, however, there are currently several states with a government coalition that is not too fond of new motorways. Which means some of them will not submit major anticipated projects, for example I've read Schleswig-Holstein does not want to extend A20 west of A7. 

Does this mean this project has no chance until after 2030 because the current coalition doesn't support the project?

That said, I'm a bit surprised by the many widening plans submitted by Baden-Württemberg, a state with a red-green government. They basically want to widen nearly all their Autobahnen to at least six lanes except for the southern and northern parts of A81.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is it possible to add new projects to the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015-2030 in a later stage?


The current BVWP 2003 has 3 stages:
- VB (Urgent demand)
- WB* (Further demand with planning privilege)
- WB (Futher demand without planning privilege)

The new BVWP 2015 will have 4 stages:
- VB+ (Urgent demand plus - only for Autobahn bootlenecks with high benefit-cost rate (NKV) and without environment risk)
- VB
- WB* (I guess, that we will have it, but there is no official info about it)
- WB



ChrisZwolle said:


> If I understand correctly, the states can submit their wish list until late 2013, however, there are currently several states with a government coalition that is not too fond of new motorways.


The states must submit their wish list until September 2013.
But there is also a election in September, so there is a possiblity, that the new Federal Government (Bundesregierung) will change all formerly plans...



ChrisZwolle said:


> Which means some of them will not submit major anticipated projects, for example I've read Schleswig-Holstein does not want to extend A20 west of A7.
> Does this mean this project has no chance until after 2030 because the current coalition doesn't support the project?


No. The states make only wish lists. The final decision will be made by the Federal Government about 3 years later (after several analysis and discussions - also a internet discussion is planned ).



ChrisZwolle said:


> That said, I'm a bit surprised by the many widening plans submitted by Baden-Württemberg, a state with a red-green government. They basically want to widen nearly all their Autobahnen to at least six lanes except for the southern and northern parts of A81.


BaWü does not have a red-green, they even have a green-red government ! They are focussing on maintenance projects and on arterial roads - just as the Federal Government plan (70% of the money for Autobahn and Autobahn-like projects; only 30% for bypasses and other projects; The BVWP 2003 had a rate with 50% for both). The BaWü problem is, that the current green-red government has its own definition for arterial roads .


----------



## MichiH

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*

The Federal Administrative Court dismissed an action by BUND (nature conservation organization) against a A44 plan-approval order today, see press release BVerwG .

It concerns the 7.2km long section from AS _Waldkappel_ to _Hoheneiche_ (see OSM). The next 5.4km section from _Hoheneiche_ to AS _Sontra-Nord_ is also challenged by BUND hno:.

About 19km of the A44 _Kassel_ - _Eisenach_ (66km) are currently under construction, 4.3km near _Hessisch Lichtenau_ are in service since 2005.

The plan-approval order for the section from AS _Sontra-Ulfen_ to AD _Wommen_ (A4) was passed in February 2013. The plan-approval procedures for the last two sections (AD _Kassel-Ost_ to AS _Helsa-Ost_ and AS _Sontra-Nord_ to AS _Sontra-Ulfen_) are still in progress.

It is also planned to widen the A7 to 4 lanes in each direction from AD _Kassel-Ost_ to AD _Kassel-Süd_ where the A44 branches to _Dortmund_/_Ruhr_. Preliminary works are in progress.


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*

The 154km long new Autobahn from _Schwerin_ (A24) to _Magdeburg_ (A2) transits the states Mecklenburg-West Pomerania ("McPom"; 25km), Brandenburg (32km) and Saxony-Anhalt (97km). The A14 is partly funded by EU.

The first 16.2km long section from AK _Schwerin_ to AS _Ludwigslust-Süd_ is currently under construction (140 million €). The works have started in November 2012 and are estimated to be completed end of 2015.

The next 9.8km section to AS _Groß Warnow_ has building law. The plan-approval order was passed in November 2012. The construction is expected to start in 2014.

The northern Brandenburg section from AS _Groß Warnow_ to _AS Karstädt_ has a length of 12.6km and is challenged by BUND and the district _Prignitz_. The BVerwG trial is on 23rd April 2013, see BVerwG. The official start of construction will be in summer 2013 - but the works are already in progress (90 million €).

The plan-approval procedures for the next sections are in progress:
- AS _Karstädt_ to AS _Wittenberge_ (17.5km)
- AS _Wittenberge_ to border Brandenburg/Saxony-Anhalt (2.0km)
- Border Brandenburg/Saxony-Anhalt to AS _Vielbaum_ (8.8km; 141 million €)
All orders are announced for 2013.

It is planned to start the plan-approval procedure for the following 16.8km section from AS _Vielbaum_ to AS _Osterburg_ in the first half of 2013 (111 million €).

The next plan-approval procedures are already in progress:
- AS _Osterburg_ to AS _Uenglingen_ (18.2km; 133 million €)
- AS _Uenglingen_ to AS _Lüderitz_ (12.9km; 146 million €)

The next two plan approval orders are challenged (among others by BUND):
- AS _Lüderitz_ to _Dolle_ (12.5km; 72.6 million €)
- _Dolle_ to AS _Colbitz_ (10.8km; 77 million €)
The BVerwG trials will be in 2014. It is planned to build both section in common.

The section from AS _Colbitz_ to AS _Wolmirstedt_ is already under construction since November 2011 (5.7km; 49 million €). The completion will be end of 2014.

The 4-laned and grade-seperated B189 begins near the AS _Wolmirstedt_ and closes the gap to the A2. But there is also a A14 section planned. The plan-approval procedure is in progress. This stretch is going to the current end of the A14 at AS _Dahlenwarsleben_ north of _Magdeburg_.


----------



## 909

I have a question regarding the route between Kassel and Eisenach. Now the A44 between the two cities is under construction and/or planned, what will happen to the nearby A4 which still lacks emergency lanes (e.g. near Bad Hersfeld)?


----------



## MichiH

909 said:


> Iwhat will happen to the nearby A4 which still lacks emergency lanes (e.g. near Bad Hersfeld)?


The A4 widening to 3 lanes in each direction is further demand within the BVWP 2003. But some A4 sections are already planned, u/c or even completed (map) for safety and maintenance reasons. The blue lines mark the 3rd lane which will be added. More information on the project page of _Hessen Mobil_ (German).

Also a good overview provides (like always) autobahnatlas-online.de. The # marked sections will be widened to 3 lanes. The ~ marked sections will not be widened during the next few years. The _Talbrücke Wommen_ is already expanded for 3 lanes in each direction, but will not be used until the A44 is opened.


----------



## 909

Thanks for your answer.


----------



## mpeculea

Speaking of the A4, i wonder what will happen with the missing sector between Siegen and Kirchheim (interchange with A7)?
Are there any plans to build it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That missing link is not included in any road plan. I don't think it'll ever be constructed, though the route via Gießen may be useful to optimize.


----------



## MichiH

mpeculea said:


> Speaking of the A4, i wonder what will happen with the missing sector between Siegen and Kirchheim (interchange with A7)?
> Are there any plans to build it?


No. All plans for a Autobahn are cancelled!


----------



## mpeculea

thank you


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> though the route via Gießen may be useful to optimize.


The A45 will be widened to 3 lanes in each direction in the next years. I am not sure what will happen with the A5. Maybe it will not be necessary to widen it when the A49 will be finished soon (in 2040).


----------



## mcarling

Count me among those who believe that the A4 should eventually be completed -- though not immediately as there are higher priorities.


----------



## MichiH

mcarling said:


> Count me among those who believe that the A4 should eventually be completed -- though not immediately as there are higher priorities.


The A4 is only a dream .

But smaller non-Autobahn projects are planned instead of the A4:
- B508 _Kreuztal_ bypass (~2km; 2+1; OSM; plan-approval procedure in progress since October 2010)
- B508 _Kreuztal_-East to _Lützel_-West B62 (~10km; 2+1; OSM; planned)
- B508 _Lützel_ bypass is cancelled and replaced by B62 widening _Lützel_-East to _Erndtebrück_-West (~4km; 2+1; OSM; planned)
- B62 _Lützel_-East to _Erndtebrück_-East B480 (~7km; 2+1; OSM; planned)

The road authority _Straßen.NRW_ announced to present the new concept in spring 2013.

The A4 was still in the Hesse part of the BVWP 2003. It is submitted to replace the A4 in the new BVWP 2015 through a new Bundesstraße from _Erndtebrück_ to _Frankenberg_:









Source: Waldeckische Landeszeitung - Frankenberger Zeitung

Also some B62 bypasses were contained in the BVWP 2003. But both NRW and Hesse has not yet presented their submit list for the BVWP 2015.


----------



## cinxxx

A3 from Passau to Regensburg, not really the best surface, drove today there, especially the part till after Deggendorf, second Danube bridge. Really bumpy.
In comparison A93 from Regensburg was pretty much good.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Still the concrete piste?

img 199 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

Concrete with many patches and bumps.


----------



## MichiH

*A49 Kassel - Gemünden (A5)*

The A49 connects _Kassel_ and Northern Germany with _Frankfurt_ and the whole south-west Germany. The future A49 route is a little bit shorter and will not be as hilly as the existing A7/A5. That's a big advantance especially for trucks.

There are still 3 sections of the A49 left (see www.autobahnatlas-online.de). The length of the missing link has a length of 42.4km.

The *first section* from the A49-end at AS _Neuental_ to AS _Schwalmstadt_ is under construction since March 2011. The stretch has a length of 11.8km and costs 205 million €. The Federal Government published an answer last week, that they still cannot announce a completion date (see here in German).

So far 9 million € were invested (end of 2010 to 2012). In 2013 the A49 is getting 20.2 million €. This money is used to build the _Frankenhain_ tunnel (899m). Also 4 viaducts are within this stage (170m, 252m, 259m and 285m).

The plan approval order was passed in September 2007. It was challenged. The complaint was withdrawn in May 2009.
Official project page: > click < (German); A further project page: > click < (German, with some pics); OSM.

The *2nd section* from AS _Schwalmstadt_ to AS _Stadtallendorf_ has a length of 13.3km and contains 2 big viaducts (197m and 310m). It costs 130 million €. The plan approval order was passed in January 2012. It is challenged.
Official project page: > click <; OSM.

The *last stretch* from AS _Stadtallendorf_ to AD _Gemünden_ is 17.4km long and costs 235 million €. It contains 4 big viaducts (180m, 235m, 350m, 460m). The plan approval order was passed in May 2012 and - of course - it is challenged .
Official project page: > click <; OSM.

The expected AADT is about 35.000 vehicles per day.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

By "it is defendant" you mean that the project decision (_Planfeststellungsbeschluß_) is appealed to? (_Klage_). For example, BUND appealing against the decision to build a new motorway. 

I've been following German road projects as well and I am always surprised lawmakers are still hoping nobody will appeal against a motorway project. You always have to count on the fact that somebody will appeal against it. You cannot execute a project without affecting someone or someone's interests.

The key is to produce a rock-solid _Planfeststellungsbeschluß_ so that any appeal will fail. They did a good job with this in the Netherlands, all decisions to widen or build a new motorway are appealed to, but every single one of them failed. They are now so confident they even start the works before the judge has issued a verdict on the case.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> By "it is defendant" you mean that the project decision (_Planfeststellungsbeschluß_) is appealed to? (_Klage_). For example, BUND appealing against the decision to build a new motorway.


Yes. I thought that "defendant" is better (beklagt) as "appealed" (in Berufung gehen). Anyway. 



ChrisZwolle said:


> I've been following German road projects as well


Do you follow the German forum or the German press?



ChrisZwolle said:


> I am always surprised lawmakers are still hoping nobody will appeal against a motorway project. You always have to count on the fact that somebody will appeal against it. You cannot execute a project without affecting someone or someone's interests.


The first complaints were successful, so the authority had to learn .
Now every plan-approval procedure takes much longer than before, and the costs are increasing 



ChrisZwolle said:


> The key is to produce a rock-solid _Planfeststellungsbeschluß_ so that any appeal will fail. They did a good job with this in the Netherlands, all decisions to widen or build a new motorway are appealed to, but every single one of them failed. They are now so confident they even start the works before the judge has issued a verdict on the case.


The main problem is the EU law (Habitats Directive). I am not sure if every EU country has the same big problem with that shit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Do you follow the German forum or the German press?


I used to post on the Autobahn-online forum, but I think my last post was at least 7 years ago. My German is okay, but my grammar is not as good. I am currently just reading it from time to time, unfortunately the forum has a bit outdated layout. It's not as busy as you'd expect from a nation of over 80 million people.

Besides that, I also use news.google.de and press releases of BMVBS and several state road authorities (like Strassen.NRW, Autobahndirektion Süd/Nordbayern and Hessen Mobil).


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> unfortunately the forum has a bit outdated layout


But it works fine  - especially compared to SSC (I have permanent malfunctions... ).


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## MichiH

*A33 Osnabrück - Bielefeld*

The A33 connects the A1 (_Bremen_ - _Dortmund_ with the A2 _Dortmund_ - _Hannover_ and the A44 _Dortmund_ - _Kassel_ (see www.autobahnatlas-online.de). There are still 2 gaps near _Osnabrück_ and near _Bielefeld_.

The *first section* from the A1 (AD _Osnabrück_-North) to AS _Belm_ is planned in a early stadium. It has a length of 9.2km (82 million €). There is a big resistance to that link by NIMBYs .
Project page: > click <; OSM.

The *next section* is a part of the _Belm_ bypass. 2.2km will have a motorway standard, 4.5km will get B51. Preliminary works have started in January 2013. The official groundbreaking will probably be in 2013 (costs: 66 million €; money for 2013: 3 million €).
Project page: > click <; OSM.

The section from AS _Osnabrück_-_Schinkel_ to AS _Hardenberg_ was opened in 1983 (7.4km). The 4.3km to AS _Burgloh_/_Kloster Oesede_ in 1986. The next stretch to AS _Hilter_ in 1988 (6.7km), and to AS _Dissen_/_Bad Rothenfelde_ in 1996 (3.3km). The last 7.2km stretch to the current A33-end at AS _Borgholzhausen_ was opened in 2001.

The *3rd section* which is left, begins at AS _Borgholzhausen_ and ends at AS _Halle_-_Künsebeck_. The plan approval order was passed in June 2011 and challenged by BUND. The action was dismissed in November 2012, construction started in December 2012. The completion is estimated for 2019. The stretch is 12.6km long and costs 140 million €. It contains 6 green bridges for wild animals. OSM

The *last section* from AS _Halle_-_Künsebeck_ to AS _Bielefeld_-Center has a length of 7.9km and costs about 90 million €. The plan approval order was passed in June 2006. Construction started in September 2009. OSM. The completion will be in 2016.

The 6.5km stretch from AS _Bielefeld_-Center to AK _Bielefeld_ was opened in December 2012 (OSM). Work has started in June 2007. This construction contained also a 1.5km long B61 stretch and costed 125 million €.
Project page for the 3 NRW sections: > click <.

The A33 from AK _Bielefeld_ to AK _Wünnenberg_-_Haaren_ was opened between 1980 and 1993.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> My German is okay, but my grammar is not as good.


My English is also not good hno:.



ChrisZwolle said:


> It's not as busy as you'd expect from a nation of over 80 million people.


The progress of the projects in Germany is very slow. So the main topic in the last years was not to share pics, but rather complaining about politics, especially Eastern Germany against Baden-Württemberg. We had several never-ending discussions about that. This scared many users away .



ChrisZwolle said:


> Besides that, I also use news.google.de and press releases of BMVBS and several state road authorities (like Strassen.NRW, Autobahndirektion Süd/Nordbayern and Hessen Mobil).


Me too. And plenty of other authority pages . I try to keep SSC up-to-date about the German Autobahns (news, not pics).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Do you have a detailed report on the situation of A71 works between Erfurt and Sangerhausen?

============

Unrelated question on the same region: are there plans to extend/improve B-343 from Berzerg to Nordhausen?

I remember driving through the Harz area and it is still very noticeable how the quality of local roads drops dramatically on former DDR areas even after 20+ years after the commies went down. 

On A4, however, the situation is the opposite. A4 from A7 junction to the Thüringen border is bad, but it improves after Eisenach. 
============

Just a hint: defendant, in English legal vocabulary, is a noun used mostly to refer to a person who is being accused and charged with a criminal offense. I think a better term for what you want to say would be project xyz is being "challenged" [in courted] or "questioned".


----------



## Rohne

MichiH said:


> The A4 widening to 3 lanes in each direction is further demand within the BVWP 2003. But some A4 sections are already planned, u/c or even completed (map) for safety and maintenance reasons. The blue lines mark the 3rd lane which will be added. More information on the project page of _Hessen Mobil_ (German).
> 
> Also a good overview provides (like always) autobahnatlas-online.de. The # marked sections will be widened to 3 lanes. The ~ marked sections will not be widened during the next few years. The _Talbrücke Wommen_ is already expanded for 3 lanes in each direction, but will not be used until the A44 is opened.


The widening of the whole stretch to six lanes is further demand, true. But section between Kirchheimer Dreieck and Wildeck-Obersuhl, which partly still is from before the war and doesn't have any shoulders, is currently upgraded for maintenance reasons. Shoulders are added everywhere, some sections are realigned and some 3rd lanes are added as shown in the map you linked. So in fact the whole section will be widened until ~2020, be it the addition of shoulders only or shoulders and a 3rd lane.


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> Do you have a detailed report on the situation of A71 works between Erfurt and Sangerhausen?


That's very easy. The stretch from the A38 to AS _Heldrungen_ will be probably opened in May 2013 (17.6km). The construction started in 2007. There was also a action by a company which did not get a job in end of 2012. But now everything looks good .

The last gap between _Etzleben_ and AS _Sömmerrda_-East (11.4km) is under construction. Works began in June 2010. The completion is announced for end of 2014. Afterwards the A71 will be complete between A38 and A70 .

There are (again) discussions about extenting the A71 to the A14 near _Plötzkau_, but I think that this will not be implemented before 2030.




Suburbanist said:


> Unrelated question on the same region: are there plans to extend/improve B-343 from Berzerg to Nordhausen?
> I remember driving through the Harz area and it is still very noticeable how the quality of local roads drops dramatically on former DDR areas even after 20+ years after the commies went down.


Do you mean the B243? What does "Berzerg" mean, "Bad Herzberg"?

I can give you a detailed update later on.



Suburbanist said:


> Just a hint: defendant, in English legal vocabulary, is a noun used mostly to refer to a person who is being accused and charged with a criminal offense. I think a better term for what you want to say would be project xyz is being "challenged" [in courted] or "questioned".


Thanks . I have changed it to "challenged".


----------



## Suburbanist

I mean B343 between Herzberg aan Harz to Nordhausen indeed.

IT would create a direct connection between A38 and A7 and provide a (longer) alternate route for people travelling from Hannover to Wuerzburg or Nuernberg when A71 is also completed. I read sometimes traffic on A7 south of Kassel is really bad. 

By the way, there is still a gap near Fulda on A66 ,when will they close it eventually?


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> I mean B*3*43 between Herzberg aan Harz to Nordhausen indeed.


B*2*43 .



Suburbanist said:


> IT would create a direct connection between A38 and A7 and provide a (longer) alternate route for people travelling from Hannover to Wuerzburg or Nuernberg when A71 is also completed.


From Hannover to Nürnberg yes, from Hannover to Würzburg no! It's about 80km longer (440 instead of 360km).



Suburbanist said:


> I read sometimes traffic on A7 south of Kassel is really bad.


No, it isn't! It has 3 lanes in each direction and the AADT is only between 60.000 and 70.000 vehicles per day, so it is very empty! Only the acclivity is heavy for trucks. But the A7 between _Kassel_ and _Kirchheim_ is mostly unlimited. It is great to drive there with a "well motorized car" .



Suburbanist said:


> By the way, there is still a gap near Fulda on A66 ,when will they close it eventually?


Spring 2014.


----------



## Suburbanist

I thought A7 was one of those roads that get very congested on summers, with hours-long delays as ppl from Northern Germany and Scandinavia go on their annual holiday craziness


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> I thought A7 was one of those roads that get very congested on summers, with hours-long delays as ppl from Northern Germany and Scandinavia go on their annual holiday craziness


Holiday craziness only between Denmark and Hannover and between Ulm and the Austrian border, but not south of Kassel . Between Hannover and Kassel it is congested - especially between Salzgitter and Göttingen where the upgrade to 3 lanes in each direction is a burning desire (and parts are still completed or u/c).

The A7 is very empty in the middle of Germany, especially from Würzburg (A3) to Feuchtwangen (A6) where the AADT is only about 25.000.


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## MichiH

*B243 Seesen (A7) - Großwechsungen (A38)*



Suburbanist said:


> Unrelated question on the same region: are there plans to extend/improve B-343 from Berzerg to Nordhausen?
> I remember driving through the Harz area and it is still very noticeable how the quality of local roads drops dramatically on former DDR areas even after 20+ years after the commies went down.


Yes, there are plans to extend/improve the B*2*43.

The B243 connects the A7 (AS _Seesen_) in Lower Saxony with the A38 (AS _Großwechsungen_) near _Nordhausen_ in Thuringia. This route is the direct connection and has a length of about 68km therefore it is much shorter than the route via A7/A38 (126km).

The A7 junction at the beginning of the route (AS _Seesen_) is not grade-separated likewise the both next junctions with B64 and B248 (see Google Maps).
The A7 will be upgraded to 6-lanes (section _Seesen_ is u/c since August 2012 and will be completed in autumn 2015), but the junction will be improved to a grade-separated junction.

The B243 is 4-laned from the A7 as far as _Bad Lauterberg_. The road is grade-separated except of the _Herzberg_ through-road. Only the sections from _Osterode_ to _Herzberg_ and _Herzberg_ to _Scharzfeld_-West has hard shoulders.

The BVWP 2003 contains a *4-laned Herzberg bypass* with shoulders. It has further demand with a high ecological risk.
The priliminary state proposal plan of Lower Saxony for the new BVWP 2015 contains a 4-laned bypass without shoulders. It is supported by the town _Herzberg_ and by the district _Osterode_. Both insists a 4-laned standard. The regional planning procedure ("Raumordnungsverfahren") is still complete. See OSM for the probable route: > click <.
There was a NIMBY resistance against that new road in the past.

There are also plans for a new road from _Bad Lauterberg_ to _Nordhausen_. It has urgent demand within the BVWP 2003.

The *8.6km stretch from Bad Lauterberg to Bad Sachsa* is u/c since August 2008. It gets 4 lanes without shoulders and will be grade-separated. The completion is announced for October 2013.
Official project page: > click <; Fan page: > click < (with pics); OSM: > click<.

The next *3.7km section from AS Bad Sachsa to AS Mackenrode* crosses the border between Lower Saxony and Thuringia so that two plan-approval procedures were necessary. Both orders were passed in 2009. It was challenged but the complaint was withdrawn. The road will only get one carrigeway with 3 lanes. Official project page: > click < (same like above); OSM: > click<.

Afterwards a *10.4km long new road* is planned (I guess it will get 3 lanes). The plan-approval procedure should start soon. This is also the bypass for _Holbach_ and _Günzerode_. OSM: > click <.

The last *3.5km section from AS Großwechsungen (K4) to the A38 junction AS Großwechsungen* is grade-separated and has 4 lanes without shoulders. It was built from August 2009 until December 2012. Official project page: > click<; OSM: > click <.

The route from AS _Bad Sachsa_ to the A38 is equates the former A46 route.

The AADT differed in 2010 along the road: 14.000 vehicles per day from A7 to B64, then about 12.000. From _Windhausen[(/i] to Osterode 14.000 (about 14% trucks), Osterode bypass 18.000, 16.000 vehicles in Herzberg, then 10.000 to Bad Lauterberg, 11.000 in Osterhagen (12% trucks).

The AADT from Bad Sachsa to Nordhausen was between 3.800 and 6.600 vehicles per day. 19-28% trucks._


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## MichiH

*A66 Fulda - Neuhof*



Suburbanist said:


> By the way, there is still a gap near Fulda on A66 ,when will they close it eventually?


The 2.8 long section from *AS Fulda-South to AS Neuhof-North* was opened in 2012 (costs: 36 million €). The first carriageway in direction _Fulda_ was opened on 12th November, the 2nd one on 3rd December. The parallel 2+1 B40 was closed afterwards and will be removed (renaturation). Here same pics, see also OSM.

The last left gap *starts at AS Neuhof-North and ends at AS Neuhof-South* (OSM). The stretch is 4.6km long and contains a 1.6km tunnel. Works began in June 2005, the completion is estimated for Spring 2014.
The construction is a combination of a new motorway tunnel and a new railway tunnel, see also wikipedia.

Official project page: > click < (German).


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## cinxxx

Happy Easter everybody! :cheers2:

One question: until where can you drive with the car towards the tripoint with Austria and Czech Republic?


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## DSzumaher

Capital Beltway D) in 4 parts:
- northern,





- western,





- southern,





- and eastern.






Happy Easter!


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## MichiH

*A10 Berlin beltway*



DSzumaher said:


> Capital Beltway D) in 4 parts


Super . Especially the overlayed map is great.

The A10 _Berlin_ beltway has a length of 195.8km and surrounds the whole city. The A10 is mostly located in Brandenburg state, only 5.4km belong to the capital state.

A short report about the A10 widening plans (same order like the video):

The *AD Schwanebeck section* (future AD _Barnim_) has a length of 4.2km. The junction is completely reorganized. The B2 to _Berlin_ city will be integrated into the junction, the AS _Berlin_-_Weißensee_ will be closed. The through road gets 3 lanes in each direction. The plan approval order was passed in January 2010, preliminary works began immediately. The official completion date is 2014, but I read mid of 2012, that the opening will probably be in October 2013.
Official project page: > click < (webcam); OSM.

The only *Berlin section* of the A10 (between AD _Schwanebeck_ and AD _Pankow_) has a length of 5.4km. Both carriageways will be upgraded to 3 lanes. The plan approval order was passed in May 2010, but the preliminary works already began earlier - mid of 2009. Also some bridges have already been built. Carriageway works began in March 2013 and will be finished end of August 2015.
Official project page: > click <; OSM.

The next upgrade relates the central northern section from *AD Pankow to AS Oberkrämer*. It has a length of about 30km. The plan approval procedure is still in progress. Construction start was announced for at the earliest in 2014.
Official project page: > click <; OSM.

The section from *Klein-Ziethen to AD Havelland* is currently u/c (2.4km). _Klein-Ziethen_ is located about 4km west of the junction AS _Oberkrämer_. The plan approval order was passed in July 2011 and includes also that stretch. In addition the A24 between AD _Havelland_ and AS _Kremmen_ will be upgraded to 3 lanes in each direction (3.0km). The A24 stretch from AS _Neuruppin_ to AS _Kremmen_ (29km) is also part of the plan approval order.
Groundbreaking for the reconstruction of the Havelland junction was in September 2012, completion is announced for 2014.
Official project page: > click <; OSM.

The Western A10 upgrade is also intended. The 40.7km between *AD Havelland and AS Berlin-Groß Kreutz* are only further demand, but it is equipped with a planning right.

The 6.5km stretch from AS *Berlin-Groß Kreutz to AD Werder* has urgent demand, but the plan approval procedure has not yet started. OSM.

The southern and the eastern part of the A10 from A2 (AD _Werder_) to A11 (AD _Schwanebeck_) have already 3 lanes in each direction, but one part has even urgent demand for a upgrade to 4 lanes.

The 9.0km long section from *AD Potsdam to AD Nuthetal* will be upgraded to 4 lanes in each direction. The plan approval order was passed in January 2013. The planned costs amount 123 million €. The construction will probably begin in 2014. The time for completion are 3 years.
Official project page: > click <. OSM.


----------



## Suburbanist

A10 is cool. When was the whole ring completed? Does any part of it run through formerly West Berlin territory?

What is not cool is A100  It would be very nice if the inner ring was also completed.


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> A10 is cool. When was the whole ring completed?


In 1979.

AD Schwanebeck - AS Weißensee was opened in 1936.
AS Weißensee - AD Pankow was opened in 1974.
AD Pankow - AS Birkenwerder was opened in 1973.
AS Birkenwerder - AD Havelland was opened in 1972.
So the northern ring was completed in *1974*.

* AD Havelland - AS Potsdam-North was opened in 1979 (last stretch).*
AS Potsdam-North - AS Groß Kreutz was opened in 1939.
AS Groß Kreutz - AD Werder was opened in 1936.

AD Werder - AS Potsdam-South was opened in 1937.
AS Potsdam-South - AD Spreeau was opened in 1938.
AD Spreeau - AD Schwanebeck was opened in 1937.
So the southern and eastern ring was already completed in *1938*.



Suburbanist said:


> Does any part of it run through formerly West Berlin territory?


No. Today only 2.7 percent are on _Berlin_ territory.



Suburbanist said:


> What is not cool is A100  It would be very nice if the inner ring was also completed.


Never ever - at least not as an Autobahn.


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## cinxxx

How is it that there is Streetview in Germany in some big cities and nothing in the rest?


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## g.spinoza

^^ Privacy laws are rather strict in D. Municipalities can (and do) refuse to get streetviewed.


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## cinxxx

Yes, but you have it in Berlin, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Nurmeberg, Bremen, Munich...


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## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> Yes, but you have it in Berlin, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Nurmeberg, Bremen, Munich...


It only means that those municipalities ruled in favour of being streetviewed.

EDIT: There are also lots of limitations in municipalities that agreed. Look at the house I was living in while in Munich:

https://maps.google.it/?ll=48.17541...ha_2alZIwsO_tfezR5686Q&cbp=12,154.75,,0,-3.68


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## MichiH

*A100 Berlin inner ring road*

The *14th section* from AS _Gradestraße_ to AS _Buschkrugallee_ was completed in 2000.
The *15th section* from AS _Buschkrugallee_ to AS _Grenzallee_ (including AD _Neukölln_) was opened in 2004.

The *16th section* from AS _Grenzallee_ to AS _Am Treptower Park_ has urgent demand. It is 3.2km long and the calculated costs account about 477 million € (federal due). The plan approval procedure started in March 2009, the order was passed in January 2011. It was challenged, but the Federal Administrative Court (BVerwG) dismissed all actions by several private land owners, concerned persons, BUND and the district _Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg_ in September 2012. The construction start was announced for spring 2013, the last information about the completion date said 2022...hno:
Preliminary works has already started. The stretch will be equipped with 3 lanes in each direction plus hard shoulders and will also contain a 385m long tunnel.
Official project page: > click <; OSM.

The 3.1km long *17th section* from AS _Am Treptower Park_ to AS _Frankfurter Allee_ (B1/B5) has further demand with planning rights. Preliminary works are already u/c in context with the construction of railstation _Ostkreuz_ (east junction). OSM.

The inner ring shall end at the _Frankfurter Allee_ and be extented by a normal city street via _Storkower Straße_ to the existing inner city street ring. Here, the 18th section of the A100 was planned within the current BVWP 2003, but it will not be submitted for the new BVWP 2015. See OSM.

Official project page: > click <.


----------



## Shenkey

Wilhem275 said:


> It always surprises me how people can concentrate their energies in completely meaningless issues...


its not meaningless

its simple invasion of privacy, how long we will have to tolerate it for the sake of selling adds.


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## jdb.2

mapman:cz said:


> I think that this is the A3 between Straubing and Bogen near Rastätte Bayerischer Wald Süd. Bridge carries the current route SR4.


Found a picture of it on Panoramio based on your description
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/16148396


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## HAWC1506

Does anyone know where I can find the standard signage used on German electronic gantries?

I'm looking for exact technical specifications of the speed limit signs, all warning signs with the red triangle (including ice, congestion, exclamation mark, etc.), height restrictions and passing restrictions.

Thanks in advance


----------



## MichiH

HAWC1506 said:


> Does anyone know where I can find the standard signage used on German electronic gantries?


Maybe you can find it here: http://www.bast.de/cln_033/nn_virgin/EN/e-Home/e-homepage__node.htm.


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## flierfy

HAWC1506 said:


> I'm looking for exact technical specifications of the speed limit signs, all warning signs with the red triangle (including ice, congestion, exclamation mark, etc.), height restrictions and passing restrictions.


Richtlinien für Wechselverkehrszeichenanlagen an Bundesfernstraßen (RWVZ)


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## cinxxx

What would you recommend me for 1-2 quick stops on the way from Ingolstadt to Breslau/Wroclaw? Görlitz seems a good choice and it's right near the motorway. Dresden could be too, but it's just to great for just a quick stop, only the detour through the city would cost more time. Bamberg I already visited twice.

Maybe a small town that has something special?

Thanks!


----------



## Viriatuus

^^

Freiberg, Meissen, Bautzen...


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## thun

Bayreuth


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## cinxxx

^^Bayreuth also visited twice


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## TommyLopez

^^ Görlitz is a very nice town, ideal for quick-stop  Also Zittau near the Czech border, it's just about 20-30 minutes from A4 :cheers:


----------



## ptscout

g.spinoza said:


> It only means that those municipalities ruled in favour of being streetviewed.
> 
> EDIT: There are also lots of limitations in municipalities that agreed. Look at the house I was living in while in Munich:
> 
> https://maps.google.it/?ll=48.17541...ha_2alZIwsO_tfezR5686Q&cbp=12,154.75,,0,-3.68


The municipalities made no problems. Google had to check each objection from each homeowner and that was too much.


----------



## panda80

cinxxx said:


> What would you recommend me for 1-2 quick stops on the way from Ingolstadt to Breslau/Wroclaw? Görlitz seems a good choice and it's right near the motorway. Dresden could be too, but it's just to great for just a quick stop, only the detour through the city would cost more time. Bamberg I already visited twice.
> 
> Maybe a small town that has something special?
> 
> Thanks!


Gorlitz is very nice, has a beautiful old city. Also Bautzen is a town that deserves a 2 hours visit. And it's right near autobahn A4.


----------



## MichiH

The new *A71* between the A38 and AS _Artern_ (17.6km) will be opened on 29th April 2013.

The plan approval order for the widening (2x3) of the *A6* between AS _Wiesloch_/_Rauenberg_ und AS _Sinsheim_ (10.8km; km 594+711 to km 605+500) was passed today. This was the last left order for the widening of the A6 between AK _Walldorf_ (A5) and AK _Weinsberg_ (A81). The orders for the other two sections were passed in July 2012 (AS _Bad Rappenau_ to AS _Heilbronn_/_Untereisesheim_) and December 1998 (AS _Heilbronn_/_Untereisesheim_ to AK _Weinsberg_). The Federal Audit Office ("Bundesrechnungshof") is currently checking if PPP is appropriate for the construction of the 3 sections. An economic feasibility study is necessary. It was formerly planned to start construction in 2014.


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## g.spinoza

ptscout said:


> The municipalities made no problems. Google had to check each objection from each homeowner and that was too much.


If that was the case, no city in Germany would have been streetviewed.


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## cinxxx

But what about motorways and other roads? Not all pass through towns?


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## kato2k8

g.spinoza said:


> If that was the case, no city in Germany would have been streetviewed.


Google pretty much was strongarmed into allowing every tenant - not just owners - of a residential building to object to their residence being shown in Google Streetview. Google received about 250,000 objections and pixelated all of these houses in the 20 cities for which it has Streetview data in Germany. Google subsequently cancelled all expansion plans for Streetview in Germany, and remains at the 20 cities originally mapped out without any updates since 2010 (unlike other countries).

Microsoft subsequently did a similar round of calling for objections when launching Bing Streetside, and received only about 80,000 objections - mostly because no one in Germany ever uses Bing or knows what it is. Microsoft subsequently permanently cancelled all Bing Streetside services for Germany.

The municipalities had no say in either case. The cities photographed were chosen by the companies. Some might have objected to municipal buildings being shown, dunno. Streets are public property anyway, and there's no legal recourse to have your property pixelated.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Understood, thanks. I didn't think it was _so_ complicated.


----------



## MichiH

*A3 Frankfurt - Nürnberg*



MichiH said:


> The next projects are the 8.0km section from _Kauppenbrücke_ to _Rohrbrunn_ (April 2013 to October 2015; about 100 Mio €; 4 lanes for direction Nürnberg; 3 lanes to Frankfurt; see OSM) and the 5.4km section from _Würzburg-Heidingsfeld_ to _Mainbrücke Randersacker_ (October 2013 to end of 2017; 170 Mio €; 3 lanes to Nürnberg; 4 lanes to Frankfurt; see OSM).


The groundbreaking ceremony for the A3 section between _Kauppenbrücke_ and _Rohrbrunn _was yesterday.


----------



## MichiH

*A71*



MichiH said:


> The stretch from the A38 to AS _Heldrungen_ will be probably opened in May 2013 (17.6km). The construction started in 2007. There was also a action by a company which did not get a job in end of 2012. But now everything looks good .


This A71 stretch will be opened on 29th April 2013.


----------



## MichiH

Some further informations from last week:

- The groundbreaking ceremony for the *B525 Nottuln bypass* was on Friday. The construction will be finished in 2017. The new road has a length of 4.9km and costs 18.5 million €. The plan approval procedure was started in 2004, the order was passed in January 2010. It was challenged, but dismissed in 2011. The B525 is a connection between _Münster_ and the Netherlands, see OSM.

- The groundbreaking ceremony for the last section of *B30 Ravensburg bypass* was announced for 3rd July 2013. The Federal government provided 1 million € for 2013 and 2 million € for 2014 through a quickening programm ("Infrastukturbeschleunigungsprogramm II"). There's no prediction for completion. The new 4-laned B30 section between AS _Ravensburg_-South and AS _Karrer_ will be an "Autobahnähnliche Straße" (yellow Autobahn) and has a length of 3.4km. The 2.2km long 2-laned B467 section between AS _Karrer_ and _Obereschach_ is also part of the project. The total costs are 55 million €. The first plan approval order was passed in 1979. It was challenged and not res judicata. Thus a second procedure started in 2001, and the order was finally passed in December 2005. In the meantime the project was on hold due to missing money. The AADT on the concerned _Ravensburg_ through-road was between 20,000 and 26,000 vehicles per day in 2010. The B30 is an important connection between _Ulm_ and the _Lake Constance_ area, e.g. _Friedrichshafen_, see OSM.


----------



## MichiH

This map shows all "Umweltzonen" in Germany: > click<.


----------



## MichiH

*A3 Frankfurt - Nürnberg*



MichiH said:


> The groundbreaking ceremony for the A3 section between _Kauppenbrücke_ and _Rohrbrunn _was yesterday.


Some pics: 
- groundbreaking ceremony
- Kauppenaufstieg
- Weibersbrunn - Rohrbrunn

Videos October 2012:
- AS Hösbach - AS Weibersbrunn
- AS Weibersbrunn - AS Marktheidenfeld
- Aschaffenburg - Würzburg (time lapse)


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## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> The _Investitionsrahmenplan_ showing the entire federal transport investment budget for 2011-2015 is available for download here (5 MB PDF).


Sorry, but that's totally wrong! The _Investitionsrahmenplan _is no financing plan! There's no budget for all that projects. The planning procedures for many projects will not be finished until 2015. This list is bullshit!

Page 7:
"Der Investitionsrahmenplan 2011 – 2015 ist wie sein Vorgänger kein Finanzierungsplan, sondern steckt den Planungsrahmen für die Investitionen in die Schienenwege des Bundes, in die Bundesfernstraßen und in die Bundeswasserstraßen im Zeitraum 2011 bis 2015 ab. Er enthält den Investitionsbedarf für den Ersatz und für die Erhaltung der Bestandsnetze, für die Fortführung der im Bau befindlichen Maßnahmen und für die Vorhaben mit weit fortgeschrittenem Planungsstand, die bereits Baureife haben oder diese im Zeitraum bis 2015 erreichen können."

Translation:
The IRP 2011-2015 is like its previous version no financing plan! It is a planning scope for Federal investments 2011 to 2015 regarding railways, Federal roads and Federal waterways. It contains the invest demand for maintaining the existing networks, continuing the current construction projects, and projects with advanced planning status which have building law or could reach it until 2015.


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## ChrisZwolle

The A3 Kauppenbrücke - Rohrbrunn widening is quite expensive. I assume we are talking about a complete rebuilding of the Autobahn here.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The A3 Kauppenbrücke - Rohrbrunn widening is quite expensive.


No, it isn't. Only *103 million €* for 8.0km.

AS Aschaffenburg to AS Aschaffenburg-Ost *41 million €* for 4,9km (compleation: 2008).
AS Aschaffenburg-Ost to AS Hösbach *141 million €* for 6.4km (including tunnel "Einhausung Hösbach-West" and "Einhausung Hösbach-Ost": 80 million €; finished in 2004).
AS Hösbach to Kauppenbrücke *138 million €* for 7.8km (completion in late 2011).
Estimated costs for AS Rohrbrunn to Haseltalbrücke: *40 million €* for 4.1km (not yet u/c).
The new Haseltalbrücke including 3km widening had costs of *50 million € *(completion was in 2012).
Costs for Haseltalbrücke to west of AS Marktheidenfeld: *37 million €*; 5.3km (not yet u/c).
AS Marktheidenfeld to border Bavaria / Baden-Württemberg: *61 million €* for 9.7km (the construction for the first bridge over the A3 started this month - preliminary work).
The new Mainbrücke Bettingen: *40 million €* (finished in 2001).
Mainbrücke Bettingen to Holzkirchhausen: *49 million €* for 8.5km (next section to build).
Holzkirchhausen to AD Würzburg-West: *75 million €* for 11.3km (finished in 2011).
AD WÜ-West to AS WÜ-Heidingsfeld: *60 million €* for 8.0km (finished in 2009).
WÜ-Heidingsfeld to Mainbrücke Randersacker: *170 million €* for 5.4km (preliminary works has started; estimated completion: 2018).
Mainbrücke Randersacker: *46 million €* for 2.0km (finished since 2012).
AS WÜ/Randersacker to AK Biebelried: *123 million €* for 9.7km (completion was in 2012).



ChrisZwolle said:


> I assume we are talking about a complete rebuilding of the Autobahn here.


Only some parts will get a new line. Also one new viaduct "Talbrücke Aschaffquelle" will be built (200m). The viaduct "Kauppenbrücke" was already replaced by a new one, which is located a few hundred meters south of the old one.


----------



## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> The _Investitionsrahmenplan _is no financing plan!


So? We all know that with our current CDU/FDP government there will not be significant changes in final financing in comparison to the preplanned allotment. Neither downwards (CDU preventing) nor upwards (FDP preventing).

We'll see whether that changes in September when we'll be back to a Grand Coalition.


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Only *103 million €* for 8.0km.


While not outrageously expensive, € 13 million per kilometer for an Autobahn that runs entirely through a rural (forested) area without large bridges is not cheap either. Therefor I assumed it's more than just a new strip of pavement and some widened bridges.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Therefor I assumed it's more than just a new strip of pavement and some widened bridges.


Nearly all German widening projects contain a complete rebuild of the road including sub-construction. The section _Kauppenbrücke_ - _Rohrbrunn_ will even get a new 200m viaduct (no replacement, but a new one), and a new edoduct (= green bridge, what's the correct English word for it?)


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## Road_UK

Ecoduct.


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## MichiH

*B211 Oldenburg - Brake*

The 1.4km long *Loyerberg bypass* east of _Oldenburg_ is currently u/c. The plan approval procedure began in July 2009, the order was passed in August 2010. Groundbreaking was in November 2012, completion is estimated in late 2014. Costs: 4.5 million €. Project page; OSM.

Not far away a typical German project: The *new B211 from Mittelort to Brake*.
The 7.4km bypass will relieve the current winding road which is limited to 50 respectively 70 km/h. The plan approval procedure started in June 2009, the order was passed in December 2009. It was challenged, but all 4 complaints were canceled in 2010.
The works are tendered and will be contracted in May 2013. Estimated costs between 25 to 30 million € without taxes. Construction will start in September 2013 and are estimated to be finished in September 2018(!). Project page; OSM.

The AADT on the B211 was between 11.100 and 12.500 in 2010.


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## HAWC1506

If anyone's interested, a U.S. highway was transported to Europe for an hour 










More here


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## Pascal20a

Is the A94 from Pastetten to Dorfen already in construction?


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## MichiH

Pascal20a said:


> Is the A94 from Pastetten to Dorfen already in construction?


Yes.


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## cinxxx

^^Will there sometime in the future be a motorway connection on A94 to Passau. I'm only asking because everytime they anounce something in the radio about A94 direction east, they say "Richtung Passau".


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## Pascal20a

Sure


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## mapman:cz

cinxxx said:


> ^^Will there sometime in the future be a motorway connection on A94 to Passau. I'm only asking because everytime they anounce something in the radio about A94 direction east, they say "Richtung Passau".


I'd recommend this site to follow for A94 Neubau info: http://www.abdsb.bayern.de/projekte/


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## g.spinoza

cinxxx said:


> ^^Will there sometime in the future be a motorway connection on A94 to Passau. I'm only asking because everytime they anounce something in the radio about A94 direction east, they say "Richtung Passau".


This means nothing. Whenever there was a queue on A8 south of Munich, radio announced "Stau richtung Gardasee". Not Austria, not Italy. "Gardasee"


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## mcarling

According to this, it has been under construction since April 2012.


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## PascalPascal2010

Pascal20a said:


> Is the A94 from Pastetten to Dorfen already in construction?


It is


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## cinxxx

g.spinoza said:


> This means nothing. Whenever there was a queue on A8 south of Munich, radio announced "Stau richtung Gardasee". Not Austria, not Italy. "Gardasee"


Lol, must have been vacation season :lol:
Antenne Bayern had Stauschrauber with live coverage from Brenner Pass


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## MichiH

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> *Another stretch of the A71 was opened today.* :banana:
> Autobahn: A71
> Section: AS Artern <---> AD Südharz (A38)
> Length: 18 km
> Cost: 191 million €uro


Pics: > click < and > click <.
The new stretch is temporarily limited to 120km/h for the next weeks.


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## MichiH

News:
- *A49:* construction of _Frankenhain_ tunnel has started (first blasting ceremony was on 29th April); article and video; press release (BMVBS); press release (Hesse Mobil).

The tunnel compleation is scheduled for late 2015. Afterwards the technic will be installed. The tunnel has a length of 900m. The current construction job contains a 1600m long part of the road including junction AS _Schwalmstadt_. The currenct job costs 53 million €. The whole A49 section (VKE20; 1st section of 3 missing sections) has a length of 11.8km. Total costs: 205 million €. No further works are in progress, thus it is not possible to predict the opening date.


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## MichiH

More news:
- Our Federal minister of Transport, Building and Urban Development Mr. Peter Ramsauer announced, that the *25km long A1 gap* in the _Eifel_ (between _Cologne_ and _Saarbrücken_, OSM) will maybe be completed in 2023/24 or later. He said, this project is a paradigm for anachronism.

- The government of state _Saarland_ announced, that it is currently expected to start construction of the *2nd A8 carriageway between AS Merzig/Wellingen and AS Merzig/Schwemlingen* (OSM) by the year 2015 (Autobahn from _Luxembourg_ to _Saarbrücken_). Thus there is no need to apply that project for the new BVWP 2015 (but the plan approval order has not yet started ).

- The *A23 gap near Itzehoe* is currently u/c (OSM). There is already one carrigeway in service since many years. The new construction started in 2007. It will be completed in late 2015. Length: 6.2km. Estimated costs: 140 million €. The main challenge is the viaduct over the _Stör_ river. The first 1200m long viaduct is already in service, the old viaduct was demolished, and the 2nd new viaduct is currently u/c. The central 120m long steel part (1200 tonne) will be assembled on 7th May 2013 (see German press release). Page with many pics: > click < (April 2013 pics).


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I filmed the B6 / B75 in Bremen.


Hey, I also drove there yesterday .



ChrisZwolle said:


> It's a mostly four-lane expressway, but has two segments with only one lane each way.


Only the "Hochstraße Findorff" has 1 lane. I had a little jam there thus I used the right lane. This lane goes lower, passes a roundabout and some lights. I've no idea which lane was faster.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently B6 is the busiest Bundesstraße of Germany with 100.000 vehicles per day.


That's not correct! See database of the 2005 and 2010 AADT: > click <. The data is based on the official data from BASt.

The section AS Bremen-Woltmershausen/Hohentorshafen - AS Bremen-Neustadt (B 75) was the busiest B6 section (73.700 vehicles per day) and the 6th busiest Bundesstraßen section in 2010.

List of B6 AADT: > click <. List of B75 AADT: > click <.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder how much traffic that two-lane viaduct carries, perhaps as much as 35.000 - 40.000?


I drove there 8am during rush hour. There was only one jam. No problem.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Nordwestknoten interchange also has only 1 lane for through traffic. 

About the traffic data, it was claimed on Wikipedia  I wondered if it was correct, because I thought B2R in München may be busier.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Nordwestknoten interchange also has only 1 lane for through traffic.


Agree.



ChrisZwolle said:


> About the traffic data, it was claimed on Wikipedia  I wondered if it was correct, because I thought B2R in München may be busier.


The B2R is a inner city road, so it is not counted by BASt.

In 2005 there was a further counter point on the _Stephanibrücke_ over the _Weser_ river. The AADT was at 96.700 vehicles per day - position 1! (Source).

Never trust any statistics that you didn’t forge yourself .


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## MichiH

*A26 Stade - Hamburg*

The future A26 will connect the future A20 with the A7 west of _Hamburg_ and the A1 east of _Hamburg_.
The first of 8 sections is in service since October 2010. The A26 begins at AS _Stade_-South and ends at AS _Horneburg_ (11.2km; 180 million €; OSM) Section 2 is u/c since summer 2006 (9.1km; OSM). Completion maybe in 2018.

Here some pics of the construction (taken by *IOOI* in April 2013):

Rural road overpass:

































Precompression bank:

















Junction AS _Jork_:









































































































One more little bridge:

























More:

















2nd rural road overpass:


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## ChrisZwolle

*A270 Bremen*

The A270 is an east-west "Autobahn" in the city of Bremen. It was created in 2001 by upgrading the B74 to Autobahn status. The road itself was built in the 1960s. It is one of the most substandard Autobahnen in Germany, it lacks shoulders everywhere, the speed limit is no more than 80 km/h (even 60 eastbound) and the geometry is highly substandard. However, it serves its purpose well, as far as I could see only the traffic lights at the A27 interchange may be a congestion spot during rush hour, this is also the busiest segment of A270. There is no through traffic in this area.










1. 

A270 Bremen-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 

A270 Bremen-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. 

A270 Bremen-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. 

A270 Bremen-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

A270 Bremen-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

A270 Bremen-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

A270 Bremen-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

A270 Bremen-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

A270 Bremen-9 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

A270 Bremen-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

A270 Bremen-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

A270 Bremen-12 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

A270 Bremen-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

A270 Bremen-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

A270 Bremen-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

A270 Bremen-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

A270 Bremen-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

A270 Bremen-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

A270 Bremen-19 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

A270 Bremen-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

A270 Bremen-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

22.

A270 Bremen-22 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

23.

A270 Bremen-23 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

24.

A270 Bremen-24 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

25.

A270 Bremen-25 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr[/spoiler]


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## MichiH

Thanks for the great pics .



ChrisZwolle said:


> The A270 is an east-west "Autobahn" in the city of Bremen. It was created in 2001 by upgrading the B74 to Autobahn status. The road itself was built in the 1960s.


The construction of the last section from _Farge_ to AS _Bremen_-_Rönnebeck_ was started in September 2007 and opened on 9th December 2009. This section has only one carriageway and is doveted as B74. It also contains a grade railroad crossing.



ChrisZwolle said:


> It is one of the most substandard Autobahnen in Germany, it lacks shoulders everywhere, the speed limit is no more than 80 km/h (even 60 eastbound) and the geometry is highly substandard.


The 60km/h limit is caused by the bad pavement. It is only a short section near _Vegesack_ and it was not yet limited in September 2012.

It is incredible, that the A270 is devoted as Autobahn, whereas many Bundesstraßen sections (B6n, B9, B10, B15n, B14, B27, B29, B30, B45, B49, B469,...) are only Yellow Autobahns!


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## Suburbanist

I have a question: which Autobahn (sectors) were built by the the former communist regime in East Germany?


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## Road_UK

As far as I know the whole of the current A2 and parts of the A4 and A14.


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## ChrisZwolle

northern and western part of A10, A14 east of Leipzig, A19 and A24.


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## cinxxx

Quick question. Is at the former tripoint DDR/BRD/CSSR some monument or something? I will be in Hof on Sunday, and thought to check it out. Is it accessible by car? Maybe until here? http://goo.gl/maps/DTnED


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## ChrisZwolle

The best way to find stuff like that out is to use Google Earth and activate the panoramio layer. This way you can find out what's on such locations.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/3665289.jpg


----------



## bozenBDJ

^^^^ Thanks Chris!


----------



## cinxxx

ChrisZwolle said:


> The best way to find stuff like that out is to use Google Earth and activate the panoramio layer. This way you can find out what's on such locations.
> 
> http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/3665289.jpg


Thanks.

By Google Earth you mean on the Google Maps page to turn on the "Satellite" view? I did that, and also took a look on the pictures marked from Panoramio there


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## ChrisZwolle

Google Earth is not Google Maps. Google Earth is a separate software program that allows much easier browsing of satellite imagery. You can turn on many more layers than in browser-based Google Maps, and you can also measure straight-line distances or paths. You can also view historical imagery. 

Google Maps allows route planning and viewing static maps, but for all other purposes, Google Earth works much better.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A14*

http://www.mz-web.de/mitteldeutschl...egen-prignitz-autobahn,20641266,22668878.html

http://www.bverwg.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pressemitteilung.php?jahr=2013&nr=25

The high court in Leipzig has dismissed all appeals by BUND against the construction of the A14 in the state of Brandenburg. The court judged that the plans are sufficient to reduce impact on nature and environment. They also dismissed the appeals questioning the necessity of the Autobahn, which gives great precedent for the other segments of A14, which are more or less the same in character.


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> northern and western part of A10, A14 east of Leipzig, A19 and A24.


Plus the A 241 between Schwerin-Süd and Dreieck Schwerin. This section is now part of the A 14 though.

And not to forget the A 113/117 between Dreieck Treptow and Schönefelder Kreuz.


----------



## Pascal20a

Does anybody have photos about the construction of the A94?


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

ChrisZwolle said:


> http://www.mz-web.de/mitteldeutschl...egen-prignitz-autobahn,20641266,22668878.html
> 
> http://www.bverwg.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pressemitteilung.php?jahr=2013&nr=25
> 
> The high court in Leipzig has dismissed all appeals by BUND against the construction of the A14 in the state of Brandenburg. The court judged that the plans are sufficient to reduce impact on nature and environment. They also dismissed the appeals questioning the necessity of the Autobahn, which gives great precedent for the other segments of A14, which are more or less the same in character.


^^
:banana: 

*Map of the planned A14 section* (Source)










*And a map of the already finished sections of the A14* (Source)
(the planned A14 stretch will cut through Germany´s largest Autobahn-free area. )


----------



## Isek

MichiH said:


> The B2R is a inner city road, so it is not counted by BASt.


B2R has a DTV of 140000 in Garmischer Straße. It may have even higher values at Donnersberger Brücke and Landshuter Allee.


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## Luki_SL

There : [OSM] you can see better the A14 planned section


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A27 Walsrode - Cuxhaven*

Some photos of A27, which is a 162 kilometer Autobahn from Walsrode (north of Hannover) via Bremen and Bremerhaven to Cuxhaven. Very few Dutch here for a change, especially north of the Bremer Kreuz.


A27-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-22 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-24 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-26 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-27 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-31 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-33 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-34 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-36 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-38 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-39 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-41 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A27 Bremen*

Bypassing the city of Bremen. This is the oldest part of the Autobahn, it originally opened in 1937, but it doesn't look like your typical _Reichsautobahn_. It was probably rebuilt. A part was widened to 2x3 lanes in 2005.


A27-42 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-44 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-45 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-47 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-52 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-53 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-56 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-58 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

begin 2x3

A27-60 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-62 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-64 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-67 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-68 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

end 2x3

A27-70 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: which Autobahn (sectors) were built by the the former communist regime in East Germany?


Internal list of German Democratic Republic Autobahns: > click <.
Map of planned GDR Autobahn network 1958: > click <.
Opening list of GDR Autobahns: > click <.
Simple Autobahn map 1980 (GDR): > click <.
Autobahn map 1985 (whole Germany): > click <.
Autobahn map 1990 (whole Germany): > click <.
Today's Autobahn map: > click <.
Map of planned Autobahn network 2015 based on BVWP 2003 (urgent demand): > click <.
Map of planned Autobahn network 2030 based on BVWP 2003 (further demand): > click <.

Parts of the today's A4, A12, A14 and A72 were only half-profile at the time.
All maps as of 1990 show the number of lanes (red = 2x2, violet = 2x3, darkviolet = 2x4, see legend).


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Thanks


----------



## MichiH

*B178 Weißenberg - Zittau (- Liberec)*

The future B178 will connect the German A4 _Dresden_ - _Görlitz_ with the Czech R35 (_Liberec_).

The first section begins at the A4 east of the current AS _Weißenberg_. *Section 1.1* has a length of 5.1km and will get 2x2 lanes (OSM). The plan approval procedure has started in 2010. The order is estimated to be passed in 2013, but complaints are most likely. The groundbreaking ceremony could at best be possible in 2015. The section will feature 2x2 lanes without hard shoulders.

The 6.4km long *section 1.2* from road S112 near _Nostitz_ to AS _Löbau_-West (B6) was opened in 2008 (OSM). The 6.4km long *section 2* (_Löbau_ bypass) is in service since 2001 (OSM). Both sections have 2x2 lanes without hard shoulders. The next 5.9km long *section 3.1* from AS _Löbau_-South (S148) to AS _Obercunnersdorf_ (S143) was built from May 2008 to November 2010 (OSM). It features 3 lanes (2+1).

The construction of *section 3.2* started directly subsequent to section 3.1 completion (OSM). It is announced to be finished in late 2013, probably in October 2013. This 3-laned section has a length of 10.2km and ends at AS _Niederoderwitz_ (S128).

The plan approval procedure for *section 3.3* started long ago. There were many objects, and the plans must be modified. There was no chance to get a final and conclusive plan approval order. A new route near the mountain/hill _Pferdeberg_ must be aligned now. The section has a length of about 5.9km and will feature 3 lanes (OSM).

The 3-laned _Zittau_ bypass is *section 4* (OSM). It has a length of 3.6km and was opened in year 2000. *Section 5* is completed and will get in service together with the *Polish section* (OSM). Poland announced to finish the construction of the _Neiße_ viaduct until late May 2013. There will be a festival on 1st of June, and both sections will be opened some weeks later (maybe in July 2013).

The *Czech section* is also u/c, but there is a complaint by a dispossessed ground land owner (she wants a higher compensation). There is still no date announced regarding the hearing at the court. Thus it is unlikely that the road can be opened in 2013 (OSM).

The whole German road will be grade-separated, but there will be some roundabouts on Polish and Czech side - the first one directly after the German/Polish border. I don't know, if the Polish and the Czech sections feature 2 or 3 lanes.

Official project page: > click <. http://www.b178-neu.de/.


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## MichiH

News:

- Hesse Mobil announced, that the 2nd carriageway of the *A661* from AS _Frankfurt_-Friedberger Landstraße to AS _Frankfurt_-East will be opened in 2015 (OSM). Groundbreaking was in November 2011, but there was no progress for many years. The yellow press ("BILD") called it "Germanys slowest construction". The works for the bridges within the future interchange AD _Erlenbruch_ will start in late 2013. The *A66 "Riederwaldtunnel"* is estimated to be opened in 2020 (OSM). The official groundbreaking ceremony was in September 2009, but nothing happened up to now.

- The plans for the future _Süderelbe_ viaduct im _Hamburg_ will be presented on 16th of May (OSM). The viaduct will get a height of 53m! It is part of the *A26 harbor link road* ("Hafenquerspange").


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## 909

MichiH said:


> The yellow press ("BILD") called it "Germanys slowest construction".


I'm always puzzled by the lack of speed with these kind of projects in Germany. Perhaps they should look at the Netherlands where a couple of years ago the so-called Crisis and Recovery Act was introduced. This law was meant to speed up decision-making, allowing important projects to be carried out, without any delay caused by legal procedures in court or elsewhere. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the construction of a new road, or the widening of an existing highway seems to take much more time in Germany than in the Netherlands (e.g. the widening of the Autobahn 5, replacement of the viaduct at the Autobahn 3/2 in Oberhausen etc. compared to the widening of the A12 near Arnhem, widening of the A2 etc.). Are there any plans to speed up this process in Germany as well?


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## MichiH

909 said:


> This law was meant to speed up decision-making, allowing important projects to be carried out, without any delay caused by legal procedures in court or elsewhere.


Normal projects are first handled by the states Higher Administrative Courts ("Oberverwaltungsgericht"), afterwards the Federal Administrative Court ("Bundesverwaltungsgericht") can be used as 2nd instance.
There is a list of projects which contains projects to be challenged only at the highest court, the Federal Administrative Court. Nearly all important Autobahn projects are part of this group. The result is, that the court has a lot to do and the waiting times have increased hno:.



909 said:


> Are there any plans to speed up this process in Germany as well?


There are many plans. But they don't suit the action to the word .

The main problem is, that the (local) politicans want to donate their voters with presents, e.g. a groundbreaking. The result is, that many projects are started, but there is not enough money to fund all currently projects. Sometimes there is only money for preliminary works. A longer construction period does also mean a longer period of jams and accidents. It is always the same shit hno:.

The only working speed up action is PPP. But there are big concerns if PPP is really better. Many people compares only the costs (which can be higher with PPP). They normally forget the macroeconomic benefit.

I think PPP are better than conventional projects because the projects can be finished earlier und the construction periods are shorter, thus the macroeconomic benefit is higher than the additional costs.


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## panda80

Are there any plans to add shoulder on the two A13 sections that have no emergency lanes? I drove yesterday there and these 2 sections are a little bit annoying when there is traffic. Also Dreieck Spreewald needs to be reconfigurated probably, you have to reduce speed to around 50km/h when you go direction Dresden-Berlin. Also there seems to be a need for a 3rd lane between Kreuz Schonefeld and Dreieck Spreewald.


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## Suburbanist

*Saarland and vicinity situation*

The situation around Saarland is quite complicated, in terms of highways connections:


A1 and A623 have no connection with the W-E A620, requiring traffic through complciated city streets of Saarbruecken if one is using either to go to France
connections with France are bad, especially A4 (France) south direction Strasbourg
A8 becomes a B-highway near Pirmasens, but it lacks a good connection with Landau because there is a sector of 18km without expressway-grade facilities right in the mountains
A8 near Luxembourg border is substandard
A1 x A62 interhcange in Norweller has a strange design - why not make A1 south (direcetion Saarbruecken) fully accessible from A62 east?

Is there some scheduled work to take care of this?


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## MichiH

panda80 said:


> Are there any plans to add shoulder on the two A13 sections that have no emergency lanes? I drove yesterday there and these 2 sections are a little bit annoying when there is traffic.


The section from AS _Thiendorf_ to the Saxony/Brandenburg border was recently finished in late 2012.

It was announced (in Febuary 2010!) that the entire renovation (include emergency lane adding) of the 1930th Autobahn in Saxony will be complete until 2013. Anyway, the last left section from AS _Radeburg_ to interchange AD _Dresden_-North is still not u/c.

Which section should be the 2nd one?



panda80 said:


> Also Dreieck Spreewald needs to be reconfigurated probably, you have to reduce speed to around 50km/h when you go direction Dresden-Berlin. Also there seems to be a need for a 3rd lane between Kreuz Schonefeld and Dreieck Spreewald.


It is further demand within the BVWP 2003. This project is also part of the Brandenburgs wishlist for the future BVWP 2015.

But I think, there is no need for widening due to the A13 is not very busy, see AADT (red = trucks):

AK Schönefelder Kreuz (A 10) – AS Ragow (2) *45600* / 6065 (13,3%)
AS Ragow (2) – AS Mittenwalde (3a) *45600* / 6065 (13,3%)
AS Mittenwalde (3a) – AS Groß Köris (4) *46500* / 7254 (15,6%)
AS Groß Köris (4) – AS Teupitz (5a) *48700* / 7110 (14,6%)
AS Teupitz (5a) – AS Baruth/Mark (5b) *45200* / 7729 (17,1%)
AS Baruth/Mark (5b) – AS Staakow (6) *44300* / 6778 (15,3%)
AS Staakow (6) – AS Freiwalde (7) *42700* / 6917 (16,2%)
AS Freiwalde (7) – AS Duben (8) *38200* / 5959 (15,6%)
AS Duben (8) – AS Lübbenau (9) *40000* / 6520 (16,3%)
AS Lübbenau (9) – AD Spreewald (A 15) *38800* / 6402 (16,5%)


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> The situation around Saarland is quite complicated, in terms of highways connections:
> A1 and A623 have no connection with the W-E A620, requiring traffic through complciated city streets of Saarbruecken if one is using either to go to France


It is planned to connect the A1 with the A623 (OSM). There are also plans to extent the A623 up to the A620 (OSM).
There are also plans to widen the A620 or to build a south bypass between A620 and A8 (http://suedumgehung-sb.de/).



Suburbanist said:


> connections with France are bad, especially A4 (France) south direction Strasbourg


I think there is no big need for a better connection.
But the new B269 was already build in the last few years.



Suburbanist said:


> A8 becomes a B-highway near Pirmasens, but it lacks a good connection with Landau because there is a sector of 18km without expressway-grade facilities right in the mountains


Big discussions since many decades. If required I can give you a detailed update.



Suburbanist said:


> A8 near Luxembourg border is substandard


There is one left section with only one carriageway. It is planned to build the 2nd carriageway "soon" (see post from last week). The rest is OK, isn't it?



Suburbanist said:


> A1 x A62 interhcange in Norweller has a strange design - why not make A1 south (direcetion Saarbruecken) fully accessible from A62 east?


I guess there is no demand for a better AD _Nonnweiler_ design.


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## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> Big discussions since many decades. If required I can give you a detailed update.


It is not "needed" but I'm curious about it. I drove there once from Luxembourg to Manheim.


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## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


> It was announced (in Febuary 2010!) that the entire renovation (include emergency lane adding) of the 1930th Autobahn in Saxony will be complete until 2013. Anyway, the last left section from AS _Radeburg_ to interchange AD _Dresden_-North is still not u/c.


I think this bridge (exit Marsdorf) requires immediate reconstruction:


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## panda80

MichiH said:


> Which section should be the 2nd one?


Thank you for your very detailed answer. There is also a section without shoulders in Brandenburg, around Calau.


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## mcarling

pmaciej7 said:


> I think this bridge (exit Marsdorf) requires immediate reconstruction


Why? I'm not aware of anything inherently wrong with steel spans atop stone columns. Does every bridge that was built using methods no longer in use today require immediate reconstruction?


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## mgk920

mcarling said:


> Why? I'm not aware of anything inherently wrong with steel spans atop stone columns. Does every bridge that was built using methods no longer in use today require immediate reconstruction?


As long as it carries its intended traffic load and is otherwise in good condition, why fix it?

It looks to me like a pre-War bridge that was destroyed or wore out and was then rebuilt using surplus military equipment.

Mike


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## darko06

pmaciej7 said:


> I think this bridge (exit Marsdorf) requires immediate reconstruction:
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I would say that this is probably an American WWII military transportable bridge, especially invented for fast replacements of then destroyed German steel overpass bridges on captured Reichsautobahns, to fasten American transport routes at the end of WWII. Because of the fact that Ausfahrt Marsdorf is situated in area first occupied by Soviets, I would say also that this bridge was probably situated in the area which was first occupied by the Americans (all Saxony westwards of Elbe/Torgau, after the Potsdam conference in July/August 1945 was given to the Soviets) and sometime in first decades after WWII relocated on its present place.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A27 Bremen*

Video of A27 through the city of Bremen.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A27 Bremen - Cuxhaven*

Some photos of A27 between Bremen and Cuxhaven. This is a 2x2 Autobahn, both with asphalt and concrete, quality of which varies, the first segment of concrete appears to have been recently reconstructed and has excellent quality, however next is a stretch of new asphalt that is very bumpy and limited at 80 km/h for quite some time. 


A27-72 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-73 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-76 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-80 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-85 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-87 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-89 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-91 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-93 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-95 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-98 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-100 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-103 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-105 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-106 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-109 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-111 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-114 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-116 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-119 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-122 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-124 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-126 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-127 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-129 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-130 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A27-132 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## Deadeye Reloaded

:guns1:*FREEDOM IS UNDER ATTACK (ONCE MORE)!!!:guns1:
*











> *German political party calls for lower autobahn speed limits*
> 
> *Opposing SPD political party pushes for 120km/h limit on all German motorways*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Currently around 40 per cent of German autobahns are limited*
> 
> Derestricted autobahns are emerging as an electoral issue in Germany. Sigmar Gabriel, leader of the opposition SPD party, is in support of introducing *a 120km/h (75mph) limit on all autobahns*.
> 
> Gabriel has cited accident statistics that show a lower amount of deaths and serious injury on restricted motorways as justification for the move. At present, 40 per cent of German autobahns have a 130km/h (81mph) limit imposed temporarily or permanently, and it remains a recommended limit on derestricted roads.
> 
> The SPD has made no formal policy on the idea and aims to consult provincial councils if the plan progresses. The Green Party in Germany has also suggested *an 80km/h (50mph) limit on country roads*, a suggestion on which Sigmar Gabriel refused to comment. However, an SPD-Green coalition has been rumoured if the SPD is elected to office.
> 
> Opposing the SPD and Green argument is Germany's automobile organisation ADAC, which believes Gabriel's argument is 'unsustainable'. ADAC spokesperson Andreas Hölzel told newspaper Bild that the current autobahn infrastructure in Germany makes for very safe roads. Despite being used for a third of German road travel, the autobahns accounted for just 11 per cent of Germany's serious traffic accidents and fatalities in 2012.
> 
> Hölzel was also keen to highlight that no comparison has yet been made between accidents on derestricted autobahns and those with a speed limit in place.
> 
> ADAC is therefore advocating the introduction of roundabouts to replace dangerous junctions and adding passing lanes to blackspot areas on minor roads. Its reasoning stems from the fact that 60 per cent of German road deaths occur on country roads.


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## bozenBDJ

^^^^ :bash::bash: _OMG_!


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## sotonsi

bozenBDJ said:


> ^^^^ :bash::bash: _OMG_!


That's certainly a good sarcastic reaction to either the masses of sirens that preceded the article, or craziness of the Greens.

120km/h is silly - the poor-quality autobahns have been refurbished, and as such there's little reason why 130km/h wouldn't be suitable. The Netherlands recently upped their limit to 130, the UK has toyed with it (though never taken the plunge to go from 114 to 128 - 70mph to 80mph) many times, and 130km/h is the current recommended speed limit. That said, there's little to be gained from mandating what is recommended here.

PS: Nice to see Banja pictures - spent 3 weeks there in 2007. Actually, that's the real reason for this post, mostly just to say 'cool'.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

The drivers on German autobahns must keep their freedom to choose the speed they feel most comfortable with! :yes:

Example: 
Citroen 2CV vs. Porsche 911. Both drivers enjoy their ride. No need to implement speed limits! :applause:


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## 909

It seems like Peer Steinbrück, the SPD candidate for Chancellor of Germany in the upcoming federal election, contradicts Sigmar Gabriel. The current situation is sufficient according to Steinbrück. So it seems Gabriel's proposal could be regarded as part of a campaign to please voters on the left side of the political spectrum. 

This issue is an ongoing public debate, but there isn't a (political) majority who wants to impose a speed limit. Wolfgang Tiefensee (SPD), who was the Federal Minister for Transport in the grand coalition of the CDU with the SPD, suggested a few years ago that it would be good to reduce the carbon dioxide emissions by imposing a speed limit. In May 2008 the large coalition as well as the FDP rejected the introduction of a speed limit of 130 km/h.

Also the coalition of the SPD and Greens failed to impose a speed limit. Gerhard Schröder called Germany an _Autofahrernation_ (a nation of drivers) to point out the fact that a speed limit would not be generally accepted by the public. 

Even in the heartland of the German automotive industry, Baden-Württemberg, which is currently being ruled by a Greens-led alliance with the Social Democrats, were plans to implement a speed cap of 120 km/h on the unrestricted stretches of the Autobahn. But this didn't happen.

In contrast the support of left-wing politicians, there is also the important and powerful lobby of VDA (_Verband der Automobilindustrie_, a German interest group of the German automobile industry), AVD (Germany's oldest automobile club), ADAC (Germany's and Europe's largest automobile club), Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Opel, etc. which oppose a speed limit. They and many Germans even suggest _Freie Fahrt für freie Bürger_, which could be interpreted like 'free speeds for free people'.

An overall speed limit seems not very likely, unless something weirds of remarkable happens the coming months before the elections.


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## verreme

^^ I just hope this is a political stunt like always; driving fast on autobahnen is an issue too small to convince voters and a freedom too big to be suppressed.


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## Road_UK

It's not the first time that a high ranking politician has opted for this idea. What is that name again of that charismatic chain smoking minister in the Kohl administration? I think he even suggested a 100 kph limit...


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## 909

Road_UK said:


> It's not the first time that a high ranking politician has opted for this idea. What is that name again of that charismatic chain smoking minister in the Kohl administration? I think he even suggested a 100 kph limit...


I suppose you mean Helmut Schmidt (SPD), the chain-smoking Chancellor of West Germany from 1974 to 1982. He proposed a speed limit on the Autobahn in 1979 as part of a campaign to reduce fuel consumption. This wasn't even the first time a speed limit became a hot item. In 1973, during the oil crisis, head of Ministry of Transport Lauritz Lauritzen (SPD) took the opportunity to implement a general speed limit of 100 km/h on the Autobahn. Following a campaign by ADAC and magazine Bild, the speed limit was subsequently withdrawn in March 1974 and marked the end of Lauritzen's political career.


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## Road_UK

In the back of my mind I seem to remember the name Fischer in the late 80's or the beginning of the 90's.


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## 909

Road_UK said:


> In the back of my mind I seem to remember the name Fischer in the late 80's or the beginning of the 90's.


Joschka Fischer, leader of the Greens, argued for a speed limit in the '90s. Later he became Foreign Minister and Vice Chancellor of Germany in the cabinet of Gerhard Schröder from 1998 to 2005. As we all know no speed limit was enforced by this coalition, but it seems to me the establishment of the _Umweltzone_ was bargaining chip in order to please the left wing of the SPD and the Greens - _quid pro quo_.


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## Attus

End of this summer there will be parliamentary elections in Germany. The socialdemocrats have quite a little chance to win, and now they try to do something, get some new idea that will get them some voters. However, I think, this one today was not quite a good idea


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## Road_UK

909 said:


> Joschka Fischer, leader of the Greens, argued for a speed limit in the '90s. Later he became Foreign Minister and Vice Chancellor of Germany in the cabinet of Gerhard Schröder from 1998 to 2005. As we all know no speed limit was enforced by this coalition, but it seems to me the establishment of the Umweltzone was bargaining chip in order to please the left wing of the SPD and the Greens - quid pro quo.


Yep, that's our guy...


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## ElviS77

This is just politics. Sure, a 120-130 kph autobahn limit could be imposed, but it wouldn't really change anything, and a lower limit won't ever happen, imo. I do, however, think that reducing the default highway limit from 100 to 80 kph is more sensible, posting a higher limit where the road quality merits such speeds.


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## Road_UK

Hmmm... I think 100 will do the job just fine on these B-roads...


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## ElviS77

On some of them, I agree. But as a generic limit, I think it's too high. I've stated on many occasions that road safety is paramount for me, and when it comes to undivided roads, speed is a real killer.


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## 909

ElviS77 said:


> I've stated on many occasions that road safety is paramount for me, and when it comes to undivided roads, speed is a real killer.


The solution is quite simple: more Autobahns! It's remarkable to notice that those - especially the Greens - who want to impose a speed limit in the name of safety are mostly also the ones who oppose new highways and widening of existing ones. When it comes down to upgrading undivided roads safety is apparently not a major issue anymore.


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## mcarling

Yes, the only way to significantly reduce road fatalities is to build more autobahns. It's much more effective than reducing speed limits.


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## 909

Not necessary, speed is unquestionably a basic risk factor in road safety, but it isn't the only factor. The Autobahn carries about a third of all Germany's traffic, but less than 12% of all fatalities. In fact, the annual fatality rate is consistently lower than that of most other highway systems. But 60% of all German traffic fatalities occur on B-roads. If politicians wants to act in the name of safety, than they shouldn't dogmatic oppose upgrading secondary roads into undivided roads, otherwise their reliability and motives are questionable.


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## Suburbanist

I find many turning lanes on B-roads particularly dangerous. Too short and sometimes with bad views to oncoming traffic.

They should use much more intelligent traffic lights with sensors, like they do here in the Netherlands.


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## Road_UK

Yes, I agree. The Netherlands is well advanced with these traffic lights in comparison to pretty much all other European countries. And I'm very surprised that no other country has used the Netherlands as an example, as they have been using them for decades.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Yesterday in Berlin there was the official ground breaking ceremony for the construction of the newest A100 section! kay: :banana:
This stretch will be 3,2 km long and it will cost 470 million €uro. With a price of 150.000€uro/m it will be the most expensive Autobahn in the histroy of Germany.  

Autobahn: A100
Section: AD Neukölln <---> AS Am Treptower Park
Length: 3,2 km
Cost: 470 million €uro
Construction time: 2013 - 2021

This project faced strong opposition from BANANAs* in the last years but all their protests and lawsuits failed ultimately. :cheers:

**B*uild *A*bsolutely *N*othing *A*nywhere *N*ear *A*nything




> 08.05.13
> Berliner Autobahn
> *Spatenstich für die A100-Verlängerung - fast ungestört*
> 
> *Jahrelang gab es Proteste und Klagen gegen die Verlängerung der A100. Nun sollen die Bauarbeiten für Deutschlands teuersten Autobahnabschnitt starten. Beim ersten Spatenstich war es erstaunlich ruhig.*
> 
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*Section 16 is now under construction. Number 17 will follow sometime in the 2020s.* :yes:


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## mcarling

Will the A100 become a complete circle before the year 2100?


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## Suburbanist

Berlin lost the chance for a quick completion of A100 after the fall of the wall, when they could pass virtually any project they wanted under the guise of re-making the city whole (and a ring highway is a perfect epithet of that)


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## MichiH

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Autobahn: A100
> Section: AD Neukölln <---> AS Am Treptower Park
> Length: 3,2 km
> Cost: 470 million €uro
> Construction time: 2013 - 2021


Well, the estimated costs are about 473 million € now.
Completion is estimated for 2021/22, that means at the earliest 2022 .

See press release.



> Die Fertigstellung und Verkehrsfreigabe der Gesamtbaumaßnahme des 16. BA der A 100 wurde auf Grundlage der detaillierten Rahmenterminplanung auf den Jahreswechsel 2021/2022 terminiert.


The expected AADT is about 105,000 vehicles per day on the short 8-laned stretch between AD _Neukölln_ and half-AS _Grenzallee_ (400m). Up to AS _Sonnenallee_ 99,600 vehicles per day (2x3). The expected AADT on the next 6-laned section is about 60,000.

The speed limit will be 80km/h, 60km/h within the AD _Neukölln_.


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## MichiH

*A3 news*

Two further plan approval orders for widening the A3 between _Würzburg_ and _Nürnberg_ have recently passed. These are the 4.0km long section 5 from AS _Geiselwind_ to the Lower Franconia/Upper Franconia border near _Aschberg_ (OSM) and the 9.4km long section 10 from service area _Aurach_ to interchange AK _Fürth_/_Erlangen_ (OSM).

The section 5 procedure started in February 2011, the procedure for section 10 in February 2010.
The plan approval orders for section 1 (December 2009), 3 (March 2011) and 4 (December 2009) have already passed.

The plan approval procedure for section 2 (12.4km from east of river _Main_ viaduct to AS _Wiesentheid_) was started in August 2011. It was annouced that it will be finished in spring 2013.
The plan approval procedure for section 6 (10.5km from _Aschberg_ to east of AS _Schlüsselfeld_ was started in September 2009.

The plan approval procedures for section 7, 8 and 9 have not yet started. It is planned to reach building laws till 2015. It is also planned to fund the whole widening by PPP (about 80km).


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> It is also planned to fund the whole widening by PPP (about 80km).


Does this also mean that the entire project will be as quick as the A1 Hamburg - Bremen and A5 Baden-Baden - Offenburg widening projects? The A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart widening is a disaster, it takes so long before the entire project is finished.


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## 909

Question: what is PPP?


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does this also mean that the entire project will be as quick as the A1 Hamburg - Bremen and A5 Baden-Baden - Offenburg widening projects?


PPP A1 _Hamburg_ - _Bremen_: started in 2008, completed in October 2012.
PPP A5 _Baden-Baden_ - _Offenburg_: started in February 2010, completation late 2013.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart widening is a disaster, it takes so long before the entire project is finished.


That is not PPP! The construction for the last 9.1km long section from AS _Karlsbad_ to AS _Pforzheim_-West has started in August 2009 and will probably be completed in early 2015. 

Only _Ulm_ - _Augsburg_ (August 2011 to December 2015) and _Augsburg_ - _Munich_ (completed in December 2010) are PPP.


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## MichiH

909 said:


> Question: what is PPP?


Public Private Partnership, see wikipedia.


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## ChrisZwolle

Public Private Partnership. Referred to as "PPS" in Dutch.


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## MichiH

*Latest news*

- The opening ceremony for *A81 widening between AS Böblingen-Hulb and AS Gärtringen* (6.8km) happened on Tuesday (OSM). But all lanes (2x3) have been in service since December 2012. The groundbreaking ceremoy was in July 2009. The works were started in May 2011. The construction has cost about 43.8 million €. AADT is about 80,000 vehicles per day (official counting in 2010, the latest press release refers 100,000).

- Groundbreaking ceremony for *B19 Bad Mergentheim bypass* was on Tuesday (OSM). 12.5 million € for 2.7km road. Completion: late 2014.

- Groundbreaking ceremony for 2nd section of the *B23 Bad Saulgrub bypass* was on Monday (OSM). 23 million € for 2.7km road. Completion: late 2016. The first section was built from February 2009 to late 2011. The plan approval order was passed in November 2000.

- Groundbreaking ceremony for *B25 Wallerstein/Ehringen bypass* will be on 3rd of June 2013 (OSM). A short section of the 3.6km bypass will get 3 lanes. The plan approval order was passed in March 2011.


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## MichiH

*B10 Pirmasens - Landau*



Suburbanist said:


> A8 becomes a B-highway near Pirmasens, but it lacks a good connection with Landau because there is a sector of 18km without expressway-grade facilities right in the mountains
> Is there some scheduled work to take care of this?


It was planned that the A8 shall connect _Saarbrücken_ and _Karlsruhe_, but there was a big opposition to a route through the Palatinate Forest.

The today's A8 between _Karlsruhe_ and _Stuttgart_ was already completed in 1939. The today's A8 east of _Saarbrücken_ was rededicate or opened in the 1970th. The last A8 section from AS _Walshausen_ to AS _Pirmasens_-_Winzeln_ is in service since 1981. Here the A8 changes over to A62. The planned A8 route is equal with the today's L600 southwest of _Pirmasens_. The A8 shall pass _Karlsruhe_ southerly near the tripoint _France_/_Rhineland-Palatinate_/_Baden-Württemberg_.

The best alternative connection on that route is the B10. It starts at the A62-AS _Pirmasens_ and ends at the A65-AS _Landau_-North. The A65 connects _Ludwigshafen_ and _Karlsruhe_ leftwards of the _Rhine_.

A widening to 2x2 lanes of the entire B10 is planned according to the current Federal demand plan (BWVP 2003). The first 15km section from the A62 to _Walmersbach_ (east of _Ruppertsweiler_) has already be widened (OSM). The last 0.7km section (2nd carriageway near _Pirmasens_-_Haseneck_) is in service since 7th November 2012.

The next 3.8km long section from *Walmersbach to Hinterweidenthal* (B327) is u/c (OSM). It is not only a simple addition of a 2nd carriageway but a realignment. The plan approval order was passed in September 2009, works started in June 2010 and completion is estimated for 2016 (34 million €).

The plan approval procedure for a 0.8km long upgrade to 3 lanes *west of Hauenstein* (OSM) has started in July 2012. This includes a new edoduct within the current 3-laned section.

The widening of the B10 from _Hinterweidenthal_ to _Godramstein_ has only further demand in the BVWP 2003. The topography is very ambitious, e.g. there are many tunnels on the current route.

The plan approval order for the 4km long section from *Godramstein to A62-AS Landau-North* (OSM) was passed in September 2010. It is challenged by the BUND (> click <).

The district _Südwestpfalz_ (_Pirmasens_ area) wants an entire widening of the B10. The destrict _Südliche Weinstraße_ (_Landau_ area) wants no widening at all. So the state government started a mediation process. Unfortunately it failed in 2005 (costs: 280,000 €). A 2nd mediation process started in September 2012 and failed in February 2013 (costs: 350,000 €). The state government adopted one week ago, that only the sections *Hinterweidenthal - Hauenstein* (OSM) and the section _Godramstein_ - AS _Landau_-North shall remain in the future BVWP 2015, but the last decision will be made by the Federal Government in 2015 or 2016. According to the latest information a *20km long gap* (OSM) will remain as it is.

Official project page: > click <.

AADT 2010:
A 62 / L 471 – Krfr. Pirmasens (L 474) *21,100* / 2,785 (13,2%)
Krfr. Pirmasens (L 474) – Krfr. Pirmasens *21,700* / 2,691 (12,4%)
Krfr. Pirmasens – Krfr. Pirmasens (B 270) *19,100* / 2,502 (13,1%)
Krfr. Piramsens (B 270) – L 482, Überführung B 10 *16,700* / 2,338 (14%)
L 482, Überführung B 10 – Krfr. Pirmasens *15,500* / 2,387 (15,4%)
Krfr. Pirmasens – Münchweiler an der Rodalb *20000* / 2560 (12,8%)
Münchweiler an der Rodalb – Münchweiler an der Rodalb (L 487) *19,600* / 2,744 (14%)
Münchweiler an der Rodalb (L 487) – Hinterweidenthal (B 427) *18,500* / 2,997 (16,2%)
Hinterweidenthal (B 427) – Wilgartswiesen (L 495) *15,400* / 2,741 (17,8%)
Wilgartswiesen (L 495) – Rinnthal (L 490) *14,800* / 2,664 (18%)
Umgehung Rinnthal Wellb. (B 48) – Annweiler, Abfahrt Schwimmbad (B 48) *17,800* / 3,204 (18%)
Annweiler, Auffahrt Kreisel Schwimmbad (B 48) – Auffahrt Kläranlage Annweiler *18,700* / 3,310 (17,7%)
Auffahrt Kläranlage (B10) – Abfahrt Albersweiler (L505) *22,200* / 3,530 (15,9%)
Auffahrt Albersweiler (L505) – Abfahrt Birkweiler (L 508) *22,700* / 3,155 (13,9%)
Birkweiler (L 508) – Krfr. Landau i. d. Pfalz *26,600* / 3,086 (11,6%)
Krfr. Landau i. d. Pfalz – AS Landau-Nord (A 65) *22,400* / 3,338 (14,9%)


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## Stahlsturm

mcarling said:


> Will the A100 become a complete circle before the year 2100?


No. Not that one ever really knows with German politicians (or politicians in general) but the official plan is to not make a complete circle.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A27 Bremen - Cuxhaven*

A video of the A27 between Bremen and Cuxhaven. This is one of the longest stretches I ever did in one video, it's about 80 kilometers.


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## ElviS77

909 said:


> The solution is quite simple: more Autobahns! It's remarkable to notice that those - especially the Greens - who want to impose a speed limit in the name of safety are mostly also the ones who oppose new highways and widening of existing ones. When it comes down to upgrading undivided roads safety is apparently not a major issue anymore.


I certainly agree that Germany should widen many existing Autobahnen and build a few more (and whether they are completely derestricted or posted 120, 130, 140, 160, isn't that much of an issue). But elsewhere, I'd say that most regular undivided 2-lane roads should have an 80 kph limit. As we all know, it's the Bundesstrassen that are real killers.


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## mcarling

ElviS77 said:


> I certainly agree that Germany should widen many existing Autobahnen and build a few more (and whether they are completely derestricted or posted 120, 130, 140, 160, isn't that much of an issue). But elsewhere, I'd say that most regular undivided 2-lane roads should have an 80 kph limit. As we all know, it's the Bundesstrassen that are real killers.


No, the real killers are cigarettes and coal-burning power stations. The number of people killed on undivided 2-lane roads is just about zero by comparison.


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## ElviS77

^^
Rather off topic, don't you think..? Far more people die on the Bundesstrassen than on Autobahnen, that's the point. And I for one think it makes sense to deal with that in a sensible manner...


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## mcarling

ElviS77 said:


> ^^
> Rather off topic, don't you think..? Far more people die on the Bundesstrassen than on Autobahnen, that's the point. And I for one think it makes sense to deal with that in a sensible manner...


No, it's not off-topic. If the government wants to limit people's freedom to save lives, reducing speed limits is not a sensible way to do it. That's true even before factoring in the incredible amount of time wasted by ridiculously low speed limits. The Bundesstrassen are quite safe at 100 km/h, compared to many other activities.


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## Road_UK

So you believe speedlimits infringes freedom?


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## keokiracer

Is that a rhetorical question?


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## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> So you believe speedlimits infringes freedom?


Axiomatically.


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## Road_UK

keokiracer said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?


No, just a question.


----------



## Wilhem275

mcarling said:


> No, it's not off-topic. If the government wants to limit people's freedom to save lives, reducing speed limits is not a sensible way to do it. That's true even before factoring in the incredible amount of time wasted by ridiculously low speed limits. The Bundesstrassen are quite safe at 100 km/h, compared to many other activities.


You're at risk of falling into the typical trick to avoid an issue: shifting the focus on something else, which may even be a good point but still is a different one.

Let's just stick to the question, with pros and cons.



Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Example:
> Citroen 2CV vs. Porsche 911. Both drivers enjoy their ride. No need to implement speed limits! :applause:


Although I'm not for the mandatory limit, I still ask myself what the hell could the Carrera's driver do if the SUV in front may decide to overtake the next car.
Yes, everyone must check the mirror before shifting lane, but it can be pretty hard to see that coming.

I'm not worried by 911 vs. 2CV, since they're pretty much sticking to different lanes.


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## mcarling

That Porsche was going considerably more than twice the ~80 km/h speed of the 2CV, which has nothing to do with what the speed limit should be on the Bundesstrassen.


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## Road_UK

I say stick with 100. 80 is too much of a drag, and can cause aggressive and dangerous overtaking. Unless you go Dutch, and implement complete overtaking bans...


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## hofburg

I don't know, one has to determine the speed of approaching vehicle in the mirror. maybe some sensor which would detect the speed of the vehicles in the back and display it on the screen inside the mirror would be cool.


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## flierfy

ElviS77 said:


> Rather off topic, don't you think..? Far more people die on the Bundesstrassen than on Autobahnen, that's the point. And I for one think it makes sense to deal with that in a sensible manner...


Why do you complain? Your very own proposal isn't particularly sensible. Applying a one-size-fits-all speed limit on road of various design standards does not improve road safety. Such general limits would just be ignored and would therefore be ineffective.


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## Road_UK

Germans are not generally known for breaking the speedlimit.


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## Luki_SL

^^Because there are very high fines. This is main reason.


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## Road_UK

Fines are generally not that high, compared to the Netherlands.


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## ElviS77

flierfy said:


> Why do you complain? Your very own proposal isn't particularly sensible. Applying a one-size-fits-all speed limit on road of various design standards does not improve road safety. Such general limits would just be ignored and would therefore be ineffective.


Where is my complaint? I think it's fair to to have a discussion about speed limits without dealing with various non-highway-related issues, that's all. Btw, I've never suggested a "one-size-fits-all" speed limit. Quite the opposite, actually, I'm in favour of speed limits that reflect the safety of the road. Thus, I suggest that a general 100 kph limit is too liberal on non-divided German Bundesstrassen. I'm not saying that a 100 kph limit is out of the question everywhere, though.


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## Corvinus

Over quite a few decades, it has been continuously proven in practice that the German speciality of general limit absence is a working system.
Would not work in every country, but it works in Germany. 

A lesser known fact is that the absence of a general speed limit is not only given on Autobahns, but -according to the law- on _any _extraurban road (regardless of status - Autobahn, _Kraftfahrstraße _or simple highway) that
- has at least two _marked _lanes in _each _direction, or 
- has a real median separator (concrete barrier, strip of grass, etc)

Of course roads without posted speed limits that are neither Autobahn nor _Kraftfahrstraße_ will be rare to find. I could not give any example of such a stretch.


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## Suburbanist

I prefer to have a higher blank speed limit so that road authorities can always make studies and put lower limits where applicable than the opposite (lower blank speed limits that need studies to be increased over).

When you have a lower blank speed limit that can be increased, it is easy to politicize these decisions, or to use the "oh, we don't get money to put signaling up" excuse. There is always money for putting signs indicating local lower speed limits if needed, however.


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## verreme

I just published my first German video . It's B10 expressway east of Stuttgart.


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## MichiH

About 40 percent of all German Autobahns are limited.

Hesse cancelled speed limits on 80km in March 2010, e.g. on the winding A7 south of _Kassel_. They also advanced many speed limits on other sections. Here a short recent press release by Hesse traffic ministry: > click <.

Minister Rentsch said: "Wer also einen Zusammenhang zwischen der Aufhebung von Tempolimits auf Autobahnen und der Entwicklung der tödlichen Verkehrsunfälle konstruiert, ist ein intellektueller Geisterfahrer" ("Who constructs a relationship between the abolition of speed limits on Autobahns and the development of fatal traffic accidents, is an intellectual wrong-way driver.")

Speeding is the 4th-most cause for accidents. Speeding means not only, that the driver ignored a speed limit but he was too fast for the current situation.


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## DSzumaher

verreme said:


> I just published my first German video .


Then, I published my 100th and 101st video in this thread. 
Therefore, special episode: Autobahn at the end of the world.* 
* according to a German forum


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## MichiH

Pics of some 2x2 expressways in southern Bavaria:
- B2 _Donauwörth_ - _Augsburg_
- B2 _Augsburg_ - _Donauwörth_ (OSM)
- B17 _Augsburg_ - _Landsberg_
- B17 _Landsberg_ - _Augsburg_ (OSM)
- B19 _Kempten_ - _Oberstdorf_
- B19 _Oberstdorf_ - _Kempten_ (OSM)

Aerial video:
- A10 AD Schwanebeck (OSM; future AK Barnim)


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## ChrisZwolle

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> Which German forum do you mean? :?


Autobahn-online. I used to post there in the mid-2000s.


----------



## Des

Suburbanist said:


> @MichiH: do you have any news on that project to close the gap in München (A-99)?


Last thing I have seen is that a few different alternatives are proposed along four main axis (a,b, c and d), from a tunnel very close to the city to a outer belt far out. 

The decision making will take definately another few years as locals are lobbying for one or the other solution. 










B2 would be my favourite.


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## ChrisZwolle

The A99 missing link is excluded from the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015, so it has virtually no chance to be constructed before 2030.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Is it possible within the structure of the German federal government to build toll Autobahn (using bonds to finance its construction)?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, although there are no general toll Autobahnen yet, there are several LKW-maut (truck toll) financed road widening projects. As stated before, the Wesertunnel (A281) in Bremen will be a toll tunnel. The Elbe Tunnel near Drochtersen (A20) will also be a toll tunnel, but the state of Schleswig-Holstein is not keen on constructing A20 west of A7 with their current government coalition.


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## Aphelion

^^ If I remember correctly, plans for the A8 "Albaufstieg" between Stuttgart and Ulm (map: click here) contained tolls.


----------



## MichiH

OulaL said:


> Are there any Autobahnen in which the environmental sticker is required?


No.



OulaL said:


> Is there any place where detailed maps of all the environmental zones can clearly be found in the same place?


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=102436941&postcount=4761

Select a "Bundesland" (e.g. "Nordrhein-Westfalen") on the left, start search (press "Suche starten").


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Autobahn-online. I used to post there in the mid-2000s.


67 posts between February 2005 and September 2009. Bad rate by contrast with SSC . I joined there in 2008.


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> That is a pity, as it leaves A-95 as lonely disconnected highway in the system (no direct connection to any other Autobahn).


Exactly!



Suburbanist said:


> I keep thinking if people living along this route don't complain about inter-city traffic


Well, there are no relevant complaints. The B2R is upgraded with many tunnels. Currently the construction is between A96 and B11 (southwest). It started in August 2009 and will be completed in November 2015 (2.8km; OSM; project page). The main traffic stream from A8-west to A8-east uses the A99 beltway and not the inner ring ("Mittlerer Ring").



kubam4a1 said:


> Why did they choose not to close the A99 gap? It would dramatically improve the driving conditions around the city, allowing to switch to other part of the ring in case of an accident or works.


There are three reasons: NIMBYs, NIMBYs and NIMBYs!

The upper class lives in the southern part of Munich and its suburbs. Also many politicans.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The A99 missing link is excluded from the Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015, so it has virtually no chance to be constructed before 2030.


It was also not included in the current BVWP 2003.



Des said:


> Last thing I have seen is that a few different alternatives are proposed along four main axis (a,b, c and d), from a tunnel very close to the city to a outer belt far out.
> 
> The decision making will take definately another few years as locals are lobbying for one or the other solution.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B2 would be my favourite.


Yes, there was a big discussion in 2008 and 2009. It was stopped in 2010. See project page (e.g. summary of the feasibility study).

The Ministry of the Interior put the southern A99 ring to the suggestion list for the BVWP 2015. But there was a forceful opposition. Also the Bavarian prime minister was part of it! The suggestion list was discussed by public participation ("Bürgerbeteiligung"/"Öffentlichkeitsbeteiligung").

I quote a press release (November 2012):
"IM Herrmann: 'Der Landtag hat im November 2010 beschlossen, dass die Option für dieses Projekt für die Zukunft bleiben soll. Wenn die kritische Bewertung durch viele Gemeinden und durch die Bevölkerung bestehen bleibt, wird die Staatsregierung den Südring auch nicht für die Fortschreibung des BVWP beim Bund zur Bewertung anmelden."

Translation:
Ministry of the Interior Herrmann: 'The Bavarian Parliament has decided in November 2010 to keep the A99 as a future option. The project will not be applied to the BVWP if the critical assessment by municipalities and the population will remain.'

The decision was already made to stop all further planning activities! The project will not be part of the future BVWP 2015 (> click <).

"Gestrichene Projekte: Aus dem Entwurf der Anmeldeliste wurden nachfolgende Projekte gestrichen: 
 - A 99, Südring München; Das Projekt wird im Ergebnis der Diskussion aus der Anmeldeliste gestrichen."

Translation: The A99 was canceled due to the result of the discussion.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think they can use all funding from the BVWP 2015 to construct projects that haven't been constructed in the BVWP 2003 and there'd still be a shortfall.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think they can use all funding from the BVWP 2015 to construct projects that haven't been constructed in the BVWP 2003 and there'd still be a shortfall.


I don't agree. They need almost all the money for funding all projects of the BVWP 2003 urgent demand. There will be no money to fund all projects of the BVWP 2003 further demand too. And the southern A99 ring was not at all part of the BVWP 2003!


----------



## OulaL

MichiH said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=102436941&postcount=4761
> 
> Select a "Bundesland" (e.g. "Nordrhein-Westfalen") on the left, start search (press "Suche starten").


Thanks, but... The Ruhrgebiet map shows a wide area indeed with lots of motorways going through it.

So even if motorways themselves are free, the gap between A52 and A2 is not? And there's no legal way to exit the A52, and even U-turns aren't allowed in the end as it continues as a dual carriage road?

It's ok with me now that I know, but I still wonder about those who don't...

On the other hand: is it easy to actually get the sticker, when visiting Germany as a tourist?


----------



## MichiH

Aphelion said:


> If I remember correctly, plans for the A8 "Albaufstieg" between Stuttgart and Ulm (map: click here) contained tolls.


The plan approval procedure was started in 2004, and it is still on hold due to missing funding. The Traffic Ministry announced in July 2012 that the expertise for funding (toll) will be finished in the 2nd half of 2012. The construction costs were estimated with 700 million € (source).

The mayor of a municipality near the Albaufstieg said in January: "The expertise regarding PPP was announced to be finished in late 2010... Never heard anything about it... A delegation visited Berlin in summer 2012. The only answer was: 'No new infomation'... (source).

Well, I guess this project will not be built until 2030 :bash:.


----------



## MichiH

OulaL said:


> On the other hand: is it easy to actually get the sticker, when visiting Germany as a tourist?
> It's ok with me now that I know, but I still wonder about those who don't...


Well, I don't care about that shit. I have a green sticker... 

Here you will find informations about the german environment zones in English.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> I don't agree. They need almost all the money for funding all projects of the BVWP 2003 urgent demand. There will be no money to fund all projects of the BVWP 2003 further demand too. And the southern A99 ring was not at all part of the BVWP 2003!


That's not exactly what I meant. I meant to say that the BVWP 2003 had numerous projects that are still not under construction today. (especially the Weiterer Bedarf projects, but also some Vordringlicher Bedarf projects). I think you can fill the entire BVWP 2015 with those 2003 projects and still have a funding shortfall. 

All the wish lists the states applied for the 2015 BVWP are unrealistic, there is funding for maybe a third of those projects.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's not exactly what I meant. I meant to say that the BVWP 2003 had numerous projects that are still not under construction today. (especially the Weiterer Bedarf projects, but also some Vordringlicher Bedarf projects). I think you can fill the entire BVWP 2015 with those 2003 projects and still have a funding shortfall.
> 
> All the wish lists the states applied for the 2015 BVWP are unrealistic, there is funding for maybe a third of those projects.


Well, I guess we meant the same .
But one thing is not "correct": The BVWP 2003 has two priorities: Urgent demand and further demand. Only the projects of the urgent demand were planned to be implemented until 2015. It was never intended to build projects of the further demand until 2015!

In my opinion the new BVWP 2015 urgent demand should approximatly contain the open BVWP 2003 urgent demand projects plus the projects of the BVWP 2003 further demand with planning rights. Most of the BVWP 2003 further demand projects should remain in the BVWP 2015 further demand.
But there's a rub in it: The old BVWP was made under different preconditions. The focus was on projects in the newly formed German states (I call it "Neufünfland"), but the next BVWP will have a different focus. Also a new traffic prediction will be made in 2014, which will affect the benefit-cost-relation which is one of the most important conditions for the prioity decision. This must be considered and will effect adjustments in addition to my "simple" plan above.

The wish lists of some states are really stupid! I hate that kind of politic hno:! It's just trying to fool the people that the projects would be implemented promptly, but you already know with common sense that it will unfortunately never come that!

But not every state drafted a wish list. Only some states did it. On the other hand we are only talking about the lists of the states. Only this projects will be considered for benefit-cost-analysis in 2014. I have no idea what will happen if the Federal Ministry would ascertain that projects which are not suggested by the states would be necessary to eliminate bottlenecks (result of traffic prediction). Will they add these projects to the BVWP although they are not part of the states' suggestion list?


----------



## Corvinus

A861 from the Swiss border at Rheinfelden to its "junction" with A98 (a stretch of some 5 km of length).
May 2013

1. _Right after the border_









2.









3.









4.









5. _The "junction" with A98 - currently the only possible direction, the A98 does not continue in the opposite direction_


----------



## MichiH

Corvinus said:


> 5. _The "junction" with A98 - currently the only possible direction, the A98 does not continue in the opposite direction_


The 2.5km long section from the AD Hochrhein (A98/A861) to AS _Rheinfelden_-_Karsau_ is u/c (OSM). Completion: 2017.


----------



## verreme

My video of B31, from A96 to Friedrichshafen. This road is mostly a grade-separated single carriageway road for motor vehicles.


----------



## MichiH

verreme said:


> My video of B31, from A96 to Friedrichshafen. This road is mostly a grade-separated single carriageway road for motor vehicles.


Thanks .

AADT 2010 (source):
AS Weißensberg (A 96) - AS Lindau (Bodensee) (B 12) *17300* / 2284 (13.2%)
AS Lindau (Bodensee) (B 12) - AS Kressbronn am Bodensee *19200* / 2246 (11.7%)
AS Kressbronn am Bodensee (B 467) - AS Schlatt *21700* / 1888 (8.7%)
AS Schlatt - AS Eriskirch *24500* / 1936 (7.9%)
AS Eriskirch - Friedrichshafen-Ost (L 328A) *27800* / 1974 (7.1%)
Friedrichshafen-Ost (L 328A) - AS Friedrichshafen (B 30) *19800* / 1940 (9.8%)
AS Friedrichshafen (B 30) - Friedrichshafen, Riedleparkstraße/Maybackplatz (K 7739) *16100* / 2077 (12.9%)

The entire section is grade-separated but it has only 2 lanes (24km).

It is planned to upgrade a Bavarian section to 2+1 (2.9km; OSM). The entire Bavarian section is suggested for the BVWP 2015 (7.0km 2x2 widening; OSM).

There are also plans to upgrade the B31 on Baden-Württenberg side:
- 2+1 upgrade between _Gottmannsbühl _and B467-AS _Kressbronn _(1.6km; OSM)
- 2x2 upgrade from AS _Eriskirchen _(K7780) to AS _Friedrichshafen_-East (1.4km; OSM)
- 2x2 upgrade including hard shoulders from _Friedrichshafen_ (K7739) – B30-AS (2.5km; OSM)

Well, no advance since at least 2 years.

The western Friedrichshafen bypass begins at the end of the video and will have 2x2 lanes with hard shoulders. It has a length of 7.1km and costs more than 100 million € (OSM). The plan approval order was passed in June 2008, complaints were rejected in 2010, but now Friedrichshafen wants a longer tunnel thus a additional plan approval procedure is necessary. Nonetheless groundbreaking is announced for mid of 2014 (project page).


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

*ACHTUNG*

There was a serious fire in the southern tube (direction Görlitz) of the Königshainer Berge Tunnel (legth 3300 m) on the A4 near the German-Polish border. A truck burnt down completely 600 m away from the tunnel portal. The fire was so intense that the damaged tube will remain closed for the rest of this year. 




























In the following traffic jam on the A4 before the tunnel there was a tragic accident. A truck hit the end of the traffic jam and pushed a Golf Plus under another truck. The driver was killed. His wife survived badly injured.


----------



## Wilhem275

Damn, poor people... I hate these things.

The tunnel seemed to work fine: lightning is still working, so the vents (I guess), the cable ducts are still in place...


----------



## Pansori

How sad. I drove on that particular road and tunnel just a few days before.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Wilhem275 said:


> Damn, poor people... I hate these things.
> 
> The tunnel seemed to work fine: lightning is still working, so the vents (I guess), the cable ducts are still in place...


^^
Yes, the safety instalations worked quite fine but the tunnel itself is on a length of about 50m very much kaputt. It will take several months to make everything shiny again.


----------



## MichiH

Some news:

- The plan approval procedure for the last section of the new *A14 *from _Schwerin_ to _Magdeburg_ will probably be started in autumn 2013. The section has a length of 16.8km (*from AS Vielbaum to AS Osterburg*; OSM). It was planned in 2009 to fund this section by European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) thus it would have to be completed until 2015 .

- The bidding procedure for the *A20 Elbtunnel* is annouced to be started in 2014 (OSM). It was announced to make an economic feasibility study after the plan approval order will be passed. The latter is announced for autumn 2013. Here an overview of the whole A20 in Schleswig-Holstein: > click <. The plan approval orders were delayed many times thus I don't believe, that all five orders will be passed until late 2014 :lol:.

- The construction of the _*Lappachtalbrücke*_ (OSM) started last week. The viaduct has a length of 287m and costs 14 million €. It is located on the *A94 between AS Lengdorf and AS Dorfen*. The PPP bidding for building the entire A94 from AS _Pastetten_ to AS _Heldenstein_ is announced to be probably started in 2015 :nuts:.

- The *B13 Unterheßbach bypass* will be opened on 3rd of June 2013 (1.9km; OSM). The plan approval procedure was started in October 2009, the order was passed in October 2011. Groundbreaking was celebrated on 5th May 2012. Estimated costs: 3 million €. This project was a real quickie . It is a northward extension of the 3.2km long *Lehrberg bypass* (OSM) which was built from April 2009 till December 2010.

- The *B216 Dahlenburg bypass* was opened in 2003. It is planned to widen the western part up to 3 lanes (OSM). This is the result of an analysis which was arranged in 2007. The plan approval procedure has started recently. The AADT 2010 (source) was only 5.100 vehicles per day, but the heavy traffic ratio was about 17% (> 800 trucks per day) hno:.


----------



## cinxxx

I drove the A94 yestarday. Hope the missing link will be completed soon. Too many hurried drivers on the Bundestrasse, on those bad weather conditions...
I passed through a tunnel that I didn't remember from last year when I was last time on the A94.


----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> I drove the A94 yestarday. Hope the missing link will be completed soon. Too many hurried drivers on the Bundestrasse, on those bad weather conditions...


The completion is estimated for 2018, but this is not more than wishful thinking .



cinxxx said:


> I passed through a tunnel that I didn't remember from last year when I was last time on the A94.


_Einhausung Wimpasing_. The 680m long artificial tunnel is on the _Heldenstein_-_Mühldorf_ section which was completed in December 2012.


----------



## MichiH

More news:

- The *A6 border crossing buildings Goldene Bremm* between France to Germany will be demolished. The works have started last Friday. The deconstruction shall improve traffic flow and road safety. The demolition costs 117.000 €. 160 additional parking positions for truck and 160 additional parking positions for cars will be created (see press release) :cheers:.

- Two complaints against the plan approval order for the *B85 Neubäu bypass* were submitted (4.0km; 16-17 million €; 2+1; OSM; project page) :bash:.

- Bavaria will operate a *speeding camera marathon* next week (4th to 11th June 2013). The locations of the 500 speeding camera points will be published here on 3rd June 2013. North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony will also participate on 3rd and 4th June! See press release :siren:.


----------



## Attus

A speed limit of 10km/h...


----------



## Road_UK

Has the Total services cease to operate on that border?


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> A speed limit of 10km/h...


:?


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> Has the Total services cease to operate on that border?


What do you mean, the Total gas station? Well, the gas station is not located at the former border crossing. It is a couple of hundred meters in front of the border .


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The plan approval order for the *A7 widening between AS Bad Bramstedt und der AS Kaltenkirchen* (2x3 lanes; OSM) was passed on 30th April 2013. The last plan approval procedure between AD _Bordesholm _(A215) and AD _Hamburg_-Northwest (section AS _Quickborn_ to state border _Schleswig-Holstein_/_Hamburg_) will be finished soon (within the next few weeks). The 7 sections (about 64km) will be built as PPP from 2014 to 2018.


The plan approval order for 10.3km long section *AS Quickborn to state border Schleswig-Holstein/Hamburg* was passed on 22th May (OSM). The procedure was started in May 2010.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Are they going for a cheap widening? According to the state, the widening will only cost € 280 million, or circa € 4.9 million per kilometer. I find it hard to believe you can replace all bridges and overpasses for that kind of money. Although the widening is generally not space-constraint, they do need to widen/replace most bridges and viaducts if they want to have continuous shoulders.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't know. But it is flat open country.

The costs are w/o the _Hamburg _section (border to AD _Hamburg_-Northwest), which will be part of the PPP. The total costs are 675 million € (> 60 million €/km) for that section plus the two southern sections (upgrade to 2x4) up to _Elbtunnel_.

See _Hamburg _project pages: > click < and > click <.

Also a 2x4 upgrade from the southern entrance of the Elbtunnel to AS _Hamburg-Heimfeld_ is planned (7.6km; OSM). The section between the future AK _Hamburg-Süderelbe_ and AS _Hamburg-Heimfeld_ is part of the plan approval procedure for the A26 section 4 which was started in September 2012.


----------



## MichiH

The pavement of the *A9 between AK Neufahrn and AK Munich-North* must urgently be renewed (see project page; OSM).

Without a renewal of the road a safe use of the Autobahn would not be sustainable during the next winter. Total costs: 22 million €.

The renovation will be done in 3 phases on weekends.

Phase 1: 8./9. June and 15./16. June; buffer: 22./23. June
Phase 2: 29./30. June and 6./7. July; buffer: 13./14. July
Phase 3: 24./25. August and 31.August/1st September; buffer: 7./8. September
The works will always start on Friday evening at 10:30PM and will be finished until Monday at 5:30AM.
*There will be 3 lanes northwards and only 2 lanes southwards (instead of 2x4).

I guess that will be "funny" for the vacation traffic!*


----------



## Des

I had two interesting experiences on the A5 from Basel to Karlsruhe yesterday. After heavy rain, it was dry at the moment, I drive on the left lane about 140 km/h, next car about 400 meters in front, when suddenly a tree in the median falls over onto the left lane. I can only just avoid it and so does the motorcyclist behind me. 

I guess the huge ammount of rain the last couple of days and moments before this happened flushed the soil away and made the tree so heavy that it fell over. I wanted to call the authorities to report the issue but I didn't know what the right telephone number is?

Not long after that the autobahn was completely closed so I ended up driving via Strassbourg, French A35 and German A65 (nice missing link between the two, time for an ausbau)..


----------



## Des

MichiH said:


> The pavement of the *A9 between AK Neufahrn and AK Munich-North* must urgently be renewed (see project page; OSM).
> 
> Without a renewal of the road a safe use of the Autobahn would not be sustainable during the next winter. Total costs: 22 million €.
> 
> The renovation will be done in 3 phases on weekends.
> 
> Phase 1: 8./9. June and 15./16. June; buffer: 22./23. June
> Phase 2: 29./30. June and 6./7. July; buffer: 13./14. July
> Phase 3: 24./25. August and 31.August/1st September; buffer: 7./8. September
> The works will always start on Friday evening at 10:30PM and will be finished until Monday at 5:30AM.
> *There will be 3 lanes northwards and only 2 lanes southwards (instead of 2x4).
> 
> I guess that will be "funny" for the vacation traffic!*


Oh shit! Maybe a good excuse to stop all the Dutch directly at the German border :lol:


----------



## Wilhem275

Des said:


> After heavy rain, it was dry at the moment, I drive on the left lane about 140 km/h, next car about 400 meters in front, when suddenly a tree in the median falls over onto the left lane.


Happened to me once, too, but I was doing 50 on a rural road so I was able to stop (on fully wet road and with no ABS!). There was strong wind at the moment, so I guess I was paying attention to the shaking trees.

Not a nice experience, anyway.


Trees in the median of highways are pretty rare, though. Can you point the exact spot on the map?


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

I´ve never seen trees in the median on German autobahns. :dunno:


----------



## Road_UK

It's been pissing down with rain out here for days now.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Rainfall totals are extreme, some locales got over 350 mm in just 4 days. There is apparently 465 centimeters of snow on the Zugspitze, which is even a lot if it was in the middle of winter, not to mention June.


----------



## Des

Wilhem275 said:


> Happened to me once, too, but I was doing 50 on a rural road so I was able to stop (on fully wet road and with no ABS!). There was strong wind at the moment, so I guess I was paying attention to the shaking trees.
> 
> Not a nice experience, anyway.
> 
> 
> Trees in the median of highways are pretty rare, though. Can you point the exact spot on the map?


Between exit Freiburg-Süd and Freiburg-Mitte I think it was.

Talking about trees in the Median, I love this old oak in the median of the A58 in The Netherlands:


----------



## Des

ChrisZwolle said:


> Rainfall totals are extreme, some locales got over 350 mm in just 4 days. There is apparently 465 centimeters of snow on the Zugspitze, which is even a lot if it was in the middle of winter, not to mention June.


Insane! I'm driving back from Amsterdam to Munich tomorrow, hope the weather is better and the roads are not to busy. As always not sure whether to drive A3 over Nurnberg or A8 via Stuttgart. Both are equally crap...


----------



## Road_UK

Des said:


> Insane! I'm driving back from Amsterdam to Munich tomorrow, hope the weather is better and the roads are not to busy. As always not sure whether to drive A3 over Nurnberg or A8 via Stuttgart. Both are equally crap...


I always prefer A3 over A8.


----------



## pmaciej7

Dreieck Schwanebeck, 2.06.2013.

^Dresden^









^Hamburg^ Szczecin->.













































^Szczecin^


----------



## Des

MichiH said:


> News:
> 
> - The groundbreaking ceremony for the reconstruction of the *A3 Lahntalbrücke viaduct near Limburg * will be on 8th June 2013. Completion: 2017. Costs: 67 million €. OSM. Project page.


I drove past here yesterday and the baustelle is already in place.. 9km of 80 km/h and narrow 3 lanes.

Its the 4th major baustelle between Köln and Frankfurt at the moment. Sadly the A61 and A45 are not much of an alternative because they are also scattered with road works. Although traffic on the A61 is much lower and even in rush hour you can often drive there without major delays.


----------



## bogdymol

pmaciej7 said:


>


What the hell?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's not as bad as it looks, the delineators are 50 meters apart usually.


----------



## bogdymol

^^ It's still a useless "S".


----------



## mapman:cz

It's not as useless as it might look like at first sight. It's there to ensure safer access and outlet for construction vehicles to the right. And as it can be clearly seen, the signage and traffic measures are not yet completed. However, the "Baustellenausfahrt" sign is already there


----------



## pmaciej7

Chicane seen from the ground:


----------



## Attus

A8 and A3 is partially closed because of flood in Bavaria. Motorways are currently under water.


----------



## Attus

A8, Chiemsee:


----------



## Attus

A3 near to Deggendorf


















(Source: Bayerische Rundfunk)


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Is the road still open?


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Is the road still open?


No. I guess these trucks were there when it was actually being flooded (it came quite quick as a dam was broken). But both A8 and A3 is closed in the sections where the road is under water.


----------



## threo2k

woooow...


----------



## Falusi

My father is coming home today form Germany (Lampertheim), and he usually use the A3, which is now flooded. So what do you think of this detour to avoid the floods?


----------



## cinxxx

Falusi said:


> My father is coming home today form Germany (Lampertheim), and he usually use the A3, which is now flooded. So what do you think of this detour to avoid the floods?


I used the E552 route when I returned from RO 2 weeks ago.
It's not much slower and the road is good. Even the non motorway parts.

From traffic info on Google Maps it seems driveable.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> There are discussions to built a tunnel below the Rhine instead of a new viaduct. There are also discussions regarding alternative viaducts to the south or to the north of the current A1 viaduct. Also a housing tunnel instead of the stilt brigdes in Leverkusen is proposed. What do you think about that situation?


A huge waste of money. Tunnels like that have operational costs of € 30 million per year or more. 



MichiH said:


> News:
> 
> - *A7 widening (2x3) between Salzgitter and Göttingen* (OSM; last 29.2km long gap): The Federal Court of Auditors ("Bundesrechungshof") has asserted that PPP would be more expensive than a conventional construction. The costs would be 12.8 million € higher. The Lower Saxony Ministry of Transport is happy, but the final decision will be made by the Federal Ministry of Transport.


I've read that too. I fail to see how € 12.8 million is significant over a PPP project of maybe 20 - 30 years, especially considering PPP projects are often years faster than government projects, which is also valuable. € 12.8 million really is pocket money on a 30 kilometer widening project, I don't get the fuss about it. 

Although I do see a point in the type of contract, many PPP projects are based on the LKW-maut which goes to the concession holder. This type of PPP projects is generally a gold mine for such concessionairs, but not an advantage to the government. It may be better to do a PPP project based on availability payments. That way you can strictly control how much money it's going to cost. The current discussion in the media puts all PPP projects in a bad light.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A huge waste of money. Tunnels like that have operational costs of € 30 million per year or more.


Well, the Rhine tunnel is only wishful thinking. The _Leverkusen _tunnel is more realistic.

The media has also speculated about demolishing the football stadium (_BayArena_) next to the AK _Leverkusen_ to get more space for the A1.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I've read that too. I fail to see how € 12.8 million is significant over a PPP project of maybe 20 - 30 years, especially considering PPP projects are often years faster than government projects, which is also valuable. € 12.8 million really is pocket money on a 30 kilometer widening project, I don't get the fuss about it.


I guess they omitted the economical disadvantage.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The current discussion in the media puts all PPP projects in a bad light.


What media do you mean - worldwide or German only?


----------



## Suburbanist

Are there any plans for additional Rhein bridges between Mainz and Koblenz? They should build at least one crossing.


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> Are there any plans for additional Rhein bridges between Mainz and Koblenz? They should build at least one crossing.


The Middle Rhine bridge ("Mittelrheinbrücke"; OSM) was in an early planning phase. The groundbreaking was announced for 2016 in 2010, completion 2018. Costs: 40 millio €. There were also problems with the UNESCO until July 2010. The last info is more than two years old, but there was an election in Rhineland-Palatinate one month later (March 2011) and the Green party bargained that the project was stopped.

A map with the estimated AADT decreases ("Abnahme") and increases ("Zunahme") where you can see the planned location.








(Source: Rhein-Zeitung)


----------



## verreme

A video I made of Autobahn A96 between Kreuz Memmingen and the Austrian border:


----------



## Wilhem275

Some vans just want to watch the world burn.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> What media do you mean - worldwide or German only?


It was reported in the German media that PPP was more expensive. Which puts PPP in a bad light, without informing people about the different types of PPP. Right now it looks like PPP projects are more expensive and "unwirtschaftlich", combined from the usual anti-Autobahn quotes from certain parties.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> It was reported in the German media that PPP was more expensive. Which puts PPP in a bad light, without informing people about the different types of PPP.


Ok. The stupid Germans only... 



ChrisZwolle said:


> Right now it looks like PPP projects are more expensive and "unwirtschaftlich", combined from the usual anti-Autobahn quotes from certain parties.


That's Germany and a typical NATO mode example: No Action, Talk Only .


----------



## thun

Wilhem275 said:


> Some vans just want to watch the world burn.


What else to expect on Switzerlands' favourite racing track?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Bremen - Hamburg*

Selected photos from my trip last week. This is the first batch, showing the A1 from Bremen to Hamburg (Dreieck Stuhr - Buchholzer Dreieck). This segment is 94 kilometers long and has 2x3 lanes. The majority (Bremer Kreuz - Buchholzer Dreieck) opened with 2x3 lanes in October 2012.

The entire set can be seen here @ Flickr

1. 

A1-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 

A1-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. 

A1-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4.

A1-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5.

A1-14 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

A1-16 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7.

A1-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

A1-21 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

9.

A1-26 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

10.

A1-29 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

11.

A1-33 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

12.

A1-35 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

13.

A1-37 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

14.

A1-39 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

15.

A1-42 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

16.

A1-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

17.

A1-53 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

18.

A1-55 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

19.

A1-60 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

20.

A1-63 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

21.

A1-66 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## cinxxx

Bavarian Priminister and CSU Party leader wants motorway toll in Germany for passenger cars, but only for foreigners. I only found articles in German:

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...uepft-Regierungs-Beteiligung-an-Pkw-Maut.html
http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/2970250/seehofer-will-pkw-maut-fuer-auslaender.html


----------



## thun

Populistic bullshit. EU law doesn't allow discrimination of Union citizens based on nationality.
A viable alternative (and the far better concept in general) would be the introduction of a toll together with cutting vehicle taxation.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If they want more money to fix roads, they should stop funneling ¾ of road-related taxes to the general budget. The German road budget is very low. 

Unrelated, does anyone know where this is? It's in Bayern, it's the header from the Innenministerium site. I don't recognize it, but I suspect it may be the B19 near Sonthofen.


----------



## mapman:cz

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unrelated, does anyone know where this is? It's in Bayern, it's the header from the Innenministerium site. I don't recognize it, but I suspect it may be the B19 near Sonthofen.


You are right, it's B19, near Waltenhofen, here: http://goo.gl/maps/03yLu


----------



## thun

He's definitely right about that.


----------



## SturmBeobachter

I was driving this Sunday evening on the A14 -> A9 and was being constantly followed by unbeliveable bad weather conditions with huge amounts of rain and lightning, but on A9 between Halle and Dessau entered in never seen before storm with the darkest skies ever seen in my life, has anyone else experienced it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A10 Berlin*

Autobahndreieck Schwanebeck (A10/A11) in 1953:


----------



## muc

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unrelated, does anyone know where this is? It's in Bayern, it's the header from the Innenministerium site. I don't recognize it, but I suspect it may be the B19 near Sonthofen.


Close. Indeed B19, but near Waltenhofen. This is the railway bridge.


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> Bavarian Priminister and CSU Party leader wants motorway toll in Germany for passenger cars, but only for foreigners. I only found articles in German:
> 
> http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...uepft-Regierungs-Beteiligung-an-Pkw-Maut.html
> http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/2970250/seehofer-will-pkw-maut-fuer-auslaender.html


That'll please the Austrian transit traffic between Salzburg and Tirol...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> That'll please the Austrian transit traffic between Salzburg and Tirol...


Austrian just cancelled the Korridorvignette between Switzerland and Germany... kinda ironic.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> You think that the tolls are only for those who cross the border? Tolls start at Innsbruck Süd!


Once again, Innsbruckers and Wipptalers are smart enough to take the B182 to go south, even to go, say, to Steinach or Matrei. The road is good and not so curvy (except the stretch near Europabrücke, but nothing dramatic). 8€ for 30 km is pure theft, and they recognize that too.

Foreigners often don't even know of such road so go straight and get robbed at Mautstelle Europabrücke. This is like those absurd tolls on Arlbergstraße and Karawanken tunnel , aimed at foreigners (or Voralbergers, who are basically foreigners to the rest of Austria).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, the Austrians decided to make the motorway network a directly user paid network instead of an indirect user paid network (taxes). That also results in lower gas prices (lower taxation). 

I understand the German (and Italian) sentiment about the vignette and _Sondermaut_, especially in the light that most Austrians have no _Sondermaut_ between most of their largest cities (Innsbruck - Salzburg - Linz - Wien and Wien - Graz - Klagenfurt - Villach).


----------



## thun

Tomorrow at 8am A3 between Straubing and Vilshofen will eventually been reopen after the floodings.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Once again, Innsbruckers and Wipptalers are smart enough to take the B182 to go south, even to go, say, to Steinach or Matrei. The road is good and not so curvy (except the stretch near Europabrücke, but nothing dramatic). 8 for 30 km is pure theft, and they recognize that too.
> 
> Foreigners often don't even know of such road so go straight and get robbed at Mautstelle Europabrücke. This is like those absurd tolls on Arlbergstraße and Karawanken tunnel , aimed at foreigners (or Voralbergers, who are basically foreigners to the rest of Austria).


They do use those roads. If you go from Innsbruck to the next exit, you only pay 1 odd euro. And for 8 euros you get to go from Arlberg to Hungary or Slovakia and back within 10 days. You pay very little for fuel and Austrians don't pay road tax. I think it's good value for money.

Tyrolians and Vorarlbergers are in the same boat when it comes to the rest of Austria.


----------



## g.spinoza

Whatever.

Back IT:.


----------



## italystf

Europe is plenty of insanely-high tolls on some major routes, some of them are meant on purpouse to tax international traffic. For example the major Alpine tunnels (Frejus, Mont Blanc, St. Bernard, Tauer, Karavanken, Alberg, Munt la Schera), the Oresund Bridge, the 15€ Slovenian vignette for 10km of expressway between Trieste and Pula, etc, the 30€ Swiss vignette even if you drive 15km,... In many cases such tolls are a limit to the freedom of movement or, where there are alternatives, create huge traffic problems on local roads through villages, like it happens in Slovenia and Switzerland.


----------



## darko06

Here can be found post about RAB around Kaliningrad (Koenigsberg):
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=104330419&postcount=1646


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B96 Stralsund*

A video of the B96 expressway from A20 to Rügen Island, across the Rügen Bridge in Stralsund.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of the B96 expressway from A20 to Rügen Island, across the Rügen Bridge in Stralsund.


Thanks . But unfortunaly the video stopped to early. I had already looked forward seeing the following 2.5km long section from AS _Altefähr_ to _Rambin_ which was lately opened in November 2012.

The next 11.5km long section up to _Samtens _will be opened in 2015. The entire B96 up to _Bergen_ (last section has a length of 6.4km) will be grade-separated and will feature 2+1 lanes after completion.


----------



## lambersart2005

double post


----------



## lambersart2005

ChrisZwolle said:


> A video of the B96 expressway from A20 to Rügen Island, across the Rügen Bridge in Stralsund.



the bridge from another angle during the final construction phase


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A7 widening (2x3) between Salzgitter and Göttingen* (OSM; last 29.2km long gap): The Federal Court of Auditors ("Bundesrechungshof") has asserted that PPP would be more expensive than a conventional construction. The costs would be 12.8 million € higher. The Lower Saxony Ministry of Transport is happy, but the final decision will be made by the Federal Ministry of Transport.


The decision of the accounting control board ("Rechnungsprüfungsausschuss") was different! The Lower Saxony Ministry of Transport is really disappointed: > click <.


The Lower Saxony Ministry of Transport has also acknowledged that they are currently pushing plans for 2+1 upgrade of the B4 instead of the new *A39 Lüneburg-Wolfsburg*. It shall be submitted as an alternative variant for the new BVWP 2015.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The A49 connects _Kassel_ and Northern Germany with _Frankfurt_ and the whole south-west Germany.
> [...]
> The *2nd section* from AS _Schwalmstadt_ to AS _Stadtallendorf_ has a length of 13.3km and contains 2 big viaducts (197m and 310m). It costs 130 million €. The plan approval order was passed in January 2012. It is challenged. Official project page: > click <; OSM.
> The *last stretch* from AS _Stadtallendorf_ to AD _Gemünden_ is 17.4km long and costs 235 million €. It contains 4 big viaducts (180m, 235m, 350m, 460m). The plan approval order was passed in May 2012 and - of course - it is challenged . Official project page: > click <; OSM.


The complaint against the plan approval order for the 2nd section was canceled. The Hessian Ministry for Economics, Transport and Regional Development is happy and hopes for getting money from the Federal Government  (> click <). The environmental organizations Nabu and BUND wants to pool their ressources and will concentrate on the 3rd section.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> About 19km of the A44 _Kassel_ - _Eisenach_ (66km) are currently under construction, 4.3km near _Hessisch Lichtenau_ are in service since 2005.


The construction of the 2nd longest German Autobahn tunnel has started. The so-called _Hirschhagen_ tunnel has a length of 4.2km and is part of the 6.1km long *A44 section AS Helsa-East – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West* (OSM). The preliminary works have already started in May 2010.
The section has estimated costs of 326 million € and will be completed in late 2018 (see press release).

The next A44 opening will be the section east of the above mentioned section from *AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West to AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center* (OSM). The construction of the 2.2km section has started in April 2008 and is expected to be completed in autumn 2013. It includes a 700m tunnel and a 100m ecoduct.

btw: The total costs for the A44 _Kassel_ - _Eisenach_ have increased from 1.6 billion € to 1.8 billion € by now.


----------



## MichiH

*A98 Hochrheinautobahn*

The routes for the future *A98 section 6 from Wehr to Murg* are still in discussion (OSM): http://buergerforum-hochrhein.de/.

Simulation pics: > click <.
Simulation video: > click <.


----------



## MichiH

*A33/B51 Belm bypass*



MichiH said:


> Only preliminary works will be done in 2013: a subordinate street will be placed, see press release.


The completion of the bypass is estimated in 2019, see today's groundbreaking press release.


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## MichiH

Groundbreaking for *B183 Bad Liebenwerda bypass* will be on 20th June (OSM; 5.2km; 29 million €; plan approval order: May 2012; completion: late 2017).

Completion of *B20 2+1 upgrade west of Furth im Wald* will be on 19th June (OSM; 3.8km; 7.0 million €; plan approval order: June 2010; groundbreaking: February 2012 // completion of 1st phase: May 2011; 1.5km; 2.7 million €).


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## kato2k8

thun said:


> Tomorrow at 8am A3 between Straubing and Vilshofen will eventually been reopen after the floodings.


Did the A92 to Deggendorf the evening before the A3 reopened (which was a couple hours later than planned, too many reporters crowding it).

Police had roadblocks at every offramp from the A92 between ca Dingolfing and Plattling, dropping the motorway down to single-lane and filtering out trucks (generally not allowed to Deggendorf during the flooding) and tourists who didn't know about the A3 closure. At pedestrian speed. Each roadblock, about every 5-6 km, created about 2-3 km of traffic jam ahead of it, and the A92 wasn't exactly full.

Traffic on the B20 and B8, the declared bypasses for the flooded A3 (and for those who wanted to get to eastern Oberpfalz towns like Cham from Munich via A92) was insane too. Took me nearly an hour from Landau to Straubing to get to the A3 on the way back out from Deggendorf.


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## Isek

Several damages on Autobahns in south east Bavaria because of heat - one dead.

http://m.welt.de/article.do?id=verm...ze-sprengt-deutsche-Autobahnen&cid=Startseite


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## cinxxx

^^heard about this also on the radio


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Controlled demolition of the old Sinntalbrücke on the A7 (near Bad Brückenau / Bavaria). opcorn:
(The impact of the collapsing bridge caused a 3.0 strong "earthquake". )

*Old bridge:*
Completed: 1967
Length: 770 m
Costs: 18 million DM

*New bridge:*
Completed: 2013
Length: 755 m
Costs: 60 million €uro






*Run bunny run!*


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## MichiH

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Controlled demolition of the old Sinntalbrücke on the A7 (near Bad Brückenau / Bavaria). opcorn:


More videos and pics:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyMmO61AGyA
- http://www.mainpost.de/regional/bad...inntalbruecke-der-A7-gesprengt;art764,7535900
- http://www.mainpost.de/regional/fra...arbeit-nach-dem-grossen-Knall;art1727,7539038


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## MichiH

Video from A10 AD Havelland (u/c):
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wDpZiCA9B0 (A10-west to A24-north)


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## Deadeye Reloaded

MichiH said:


> More videos and pics:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]


^^
Nice! Best video so far! :drool:


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## bozenBDJ

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Controlled demolition of the old Sinntalbrücke on the A7 (near Bad Brückenau / Bavaria). opcorn:
> (*The impact of the collapsing bridge caused a 3.0 strong "earthquake". )*
> 
> *Old bridge:*
> Completed: 1967
> Length: 770 m
> Costs: 18 million DM
> 
> *New bridge:*
> Completed: 2013
> Length: 755 m
> Costs: 60 million €uro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Run bunny run!*


Wow that escalated quickly  :jk:


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The 2nd stage of the B3 _Celle_ bypass will be opened on 20th June 2013 (source with pics of the strange oval roundabout).
> The 2nd stage from *AS Westercelle to AS Altencelle* (3.2km; OSM) is u/c since June 2009 (plan approval procedure: May 2005 to March 2007; complaints have been rejected). It is equipped with 3 lanes.


The section was opened on schedule. The costs are 20.4 million €, see press release.



MichiH said:


> Completion of *B20 2+1 upgrade west of Furth im Wald* will be on 19th June (OSM; 3.8km; 7.0 million €; plan approval order: June 2010; groundbreaking: February 2012 // completion of 1st phase: May 2011; 1.5km; 2.7 million €).


It was also opened on schedule. The costs are 6.7 million €, see press release.

I didn't know yet, that also a forth section will be upgraded to 2+1. The planning procedure is still in progress. The section runs from *Kothmaißling to Satzdorf* (OSM). I guess the widening doesn't include the _Regen_ river viaduct. The next section is already 2+1, but it is planned to be upgraded to 2x2 (w/o hard shoulders).



MichiH said:


> Groundbreaking for *B183 Bad Liebenwerda bypass* will be on 20th June (OSM; 5.2km; 29 million €; plan approval order: May 2012; completion: late 2017).


The groundbreaking ceremony took place, see press release. The completion was now announced for 2018.

The groundbreakding ceremony for the *B249 Frieda bypass* will be on 28th June (OSM; 2.2km; 5-6 million €; plan approval order: December 2010; complaints was canceled; project page).


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## MichiH

Isek said:


> Several damages on Autobahns in south east Bavaria because of heat - one dead.


Well, that's common in Germany, e.g. on the A20 (but w/o dead person!).

It is a general problem on concrete roads. A speed limit of 80km/h was arranged precautionary on more than 200km in Bavaria, see press release (A3, A92 and A93, see map on 2nd page).


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## ChrisZwolle

*A11 Kreuz Uckermark - Berlin*

Some photos of Autobahn A11 from Kreuz Uckermark (A20) to Dreieck Schwanebeck (A10). The first part runs through a nature reserve, I think it's rather unlikely that such a route would be chosen today. Additionally, A11 is relatively far from most towns along the route. 


A11-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-10 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-11 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-13 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-15 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-17 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-18 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-19 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-20 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-23 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-24 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-27 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-29 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-31 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-33 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-35 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-36 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-38 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-40 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-42 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-43 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-45 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-47 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A11-52 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plan approval order for the *A7 widening between AS Bad Bramstedt und der AS Kaltenkirchen* (2x3 lanes; OSM) was passed on 30th April 2013. The last plan approval procedure between *AD Bordesholm (A215) and AD Hamburg-Northwest* (section AS _Quickborn_ to state border _Schleswig-Holstein_/_Hamburg_) will be finished soon (within the next few weeks). The 7 sections (about 64km) will be built as PPP from 2014 to 2018.
> 
> 
> 
> The plan approval order for 10.3km long section *AS Quickborn to state border Schleswig-Holstein/Hamburg* was passed on 22th May (OSM). The procedure was started in May 2010.
Click to expand...

All plan approval orders for the PPP project (OSM) are passed now.

 Links:
- _Schleswig-Holstein_ project page
- _Hamburg_ project page
- DEGES project page

Here some info about the further procedure (source with all presentations of the latest informative meeting (17th June 2013)):

Schedule for the PPP project, source (page 20):
- participation competition: December 2011 to July 2012
- 4 biddings: July 2013
- negotiating stage: November 2013 to February 2014
- BAFO (best and final order): spring 2014
- contract awarding: spring 2014
- Financial Close September 2014
- Start of construction: October 2014
- Completion: 2018/19

Schedule for the _Hamburg _sections (only the northern one is part of the PPP), source (page 7):
- _Schnelsen _section (PPP; 2x2 --> 2x3): 2011-13 (PFV); 2012 (PFB); 2014-18 (Bau); OSM
- _Stellingen _section (2x3 --> 2x4): 2010-12 (PFV); 2013 (PFB); 2014/15-19 (Bau); OSM
- _Altona _section (2x3 --> 2x4): 2014-15 (PFV); 2016/17 (PFB); 2019-22 (Bau); OSM

PFV = plan approval procedure
PFB = plan approval order
Bau = construction

Info about the A7 widening from _Elbtunnel _to future A26 on page 8: > click< (OSM; 2x3 --> 2x4).

All in all the entire A7 from AD _Bordesholm _to AS _Hamburg_-_Heimfeld_ (81km) will be widened by 2 further lanes (except of the _Elbtunnel_). The northern 65.1km long section will be implemented as PPP.


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## ChrisZwolle

The widening will create havoc, especially the urban stretch south of AD Hamburg-Nordwest. But the end result is worth it. 

Unfortunately there aren't any good alternate routes in the Hamburg area other than urban streets. The A1-A21 route is only interesting for long distance traffic but A21 is not completed and works are going on around Nettelsee as well (not to mention the very poor pavement condition south of Bad Segeberg).

Next time I'll go up to Denmark I want to try the A23-B77 route via Itzehoe - Rendsburg. So far I've only driven B77 from Rendsburg to Schleswig.

B4 appears like a good alternate route to A7 because it's straight, but it goes through a number of towns and ends rather unfortunate in the middle of Bad Bramsted (B4 goes through the center of town).


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## MichiH

*Ranking of Autobahns with AADT 2010 higher than 100,000 vehicles/day*

Rank; *Road State *Section *AADT 2010* / heavy traffic *number of lanes* (future number of lanes according to BVWP 2003)

1. *A100 BE *AD Funkturm (A115) – AS Kurfürstendamm (12) *186100* / 6886 (3,7%) *3+3*
2. *A100 BE* AS Kurfürstendamm (12) – AS Hohenzollerndamm (13) *171400* / 6685 (3,9%) *3+3*
3. *A3 NW* AK Köln-Ost (A4) – AD Köln-Heumar (A4/A59) *166100* / 17607 (10,6%) *4+4*
4. *A100 BE* AS Innsbrucker Platz (17) – AK Schöneberg (A103) *162900* / 6679 (4,1%) *3+3*
5. *A100 BE* AS Hohenzollerndamm (13) – AS Schmargendorf (14) *159800* / 6392 (4%) *3+3*
6. *A3 NW* AK Leverkusen (A1) – AS Leverkusen-Zentrum (24) *157600* / 16233 (10,3%) *3+3* (4+4 VB)
7. *A3 NW* AS Köln-Dellbrück (26) – AK Köln-Ost (A4) *157100* / 15867 (10,1%) *4+4*
8. *A100 BE* AS Kaiserdamm-Süd (8) – AD Funkturm (A115) *151300* / 6960 (4,6%) *3+3*
9. *A3 HE* AS F-Süd (51) – AK Offenbacher Kreuz (A661) *150700* / *24263* (16,1%) *4+4*
10. *A3 NW* AS Leverkusen-Zentrum (24) – AS Köln-Mülheim (25) *150500* / 15502 (10,3%) *3+3* (4+4 VB)
11. *A100 BE* AS Alboinstraße (19) – AS Tempelhofer Damm (20) *149500* / 6130 (4,1%) *3+3*
12. *A3 NW* AS Köln-Mülheim (25) – AS Köln-Dellbrück (26) *149100* / 15059 (10,1%) *4+4*
13. *A8 BW* AD Leonberg (A81) – AS Leonberg-Ost (50) *147600* / 18598 (12,6%) *2+2+2+2*
14. *A8 BW* AS Leonberg-Ost (50) – AK Stuttgart (A81/A831) *147600* / 18598 (12,6%) *4+3* (4+4 WB)
15. *A100 BE* AS Wexstraße (16) – AS Innsbrucker Platz (17) *147400* / 6486 (4,4%) *3+3*
16. *A9 BY* AS Garching-Süd (71) – AK München-Nord (A99) *146200* / 13158 (9%) *4+4*
17. *A5 HE* AS F-Niederrad (21) – AK Frankfurter Kreuz (A3) *145900* / 13277 (9,1%) *4+4 (TSF)*
18. *A100 BE* AK Schöneberg (A103) – AS Alboinstraße (19) *145000* / 5800 (4%) *3+3*
19. *A100 BE* AS Schmargendorf (14) – AS Detmolder Straße (15) *142700* / 6279 (4,4%) *3+3*
20. *A100 BE* AS Kaiserdamm (7) – AS Kaiserdamm-Süd (8) *141400* / 6787 (4,8%) *3+3*
21. *A5 BW* AS Karlsruhe-Mitte (45) – AD Karlsruhe (A8) *140100* / *20034* (14,3%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
22. *A100 BE* AS Spandauer Damm (6) – AS Kaiserdamm (7) *139600* / 6701 (4,8%) *3+3*
23. *A100 BE* AS Detmolder Straße (15) – AS Wexstraße (16) *138700* / 7629 (5,5%) *3+3*
24. *A5 HE* AK Westkreuz Frankfurt (A648) – AS F-Westhafen (20) *138600* / 13583 (9,8%) *4+4* (2+4+4+2 VB)
25. *A9 BY* AS Garching-Nord (70) – AS Garching-Süd (71) *136800* / 12449 (9,1%) *4+4*
26. *A100 BE* AS Tempelhofer Damm (20) – AS Oberlandstraße (21) *135200* / 5949 (4,4%) *3+3*
27. *A3 HE* AK Frankfurter Kreuz (A5) – AS F-Süd (51) *135000* / 15930 (11,8%) *4+4*
28. *A7 HH* AD Hamburg-Nordwest (A23) – AS Hamburg-Stellingen (26) *134300* / 14236 (10,6%) *3+3* (4+4 VB)
29. *A66 HE* AS F-Höchst (16) – AD Eschborner Dreieck (A648) *133200* / 4928 (3,7%) *4+4*
30. *A5 HE* AK Frankfurter Kreuz (A3) – AS Zeppelinheim (23) *132700* / 13403 (10,1%) *2+3+3+2*
31. *A9 BY* AS Eching (69) – AS Garching-Nord (70) *131800* / 12521 (9,5%) *4+4*
32. *A2 NI* AS Hannover-Herrenhausen (42) – AD Hannover-West (A352) *129800* / *26998* (20,8%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
33. *A81 BW* AS Ludwigsburg-Nord (15) – AS Ludwigsburg-Süd (16) *129300* / 12025 (9,3%) *3+3*
34. *A3 NW* AS Leverkusen-Opladen (22) – AK Leverkusen (A1) *129200* / 13049 (10,1%) *3+3*
35. *A3 NW* AS Mettmann (18) – AK Hilden (A46) *129000* / 13287 (10,3%) *3+3*
36. *A5 HE* AS F-Westhafen (20) – AS F-Niederrad (21) *128400* / 12326 (9,6%) *4+4* (2+4+4+2 VB)
37. *A8 BW* AK Stuttgart (A81/A831) – AS Stuttgart-Möhringen (52a) *127700* / 14813 (11,6%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
38. *A3 NW* AK Oberhausen-West (A42) – AS Oberhausen-Lirich (13) *127600* / 18247 (14,3%) *3+3*
39. *A5 BW* AS Karlsruhe-Durlach (44) – AS Karlsruhe-Mitte (45) *126900* / 16243 (12,8%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
40. *A3 NW* AS Oberhausen-Lirich (13) – AK Kaiserberg (A40) *126800* / 16611 (13,1%) *3+3*
41. *A3 HE* AD Mönchhof-Dreieck (A67) – AS Kelsterbach (49) *126000* / 16380 (13%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
42. *A81 BW* AK Stuttgart (A831) – AS Sindelfingen-Ost (21) *125200* / 9390 (7,5%) *3+2* (3+3 VB)
43. *A5 HE* AS Zeppelinheim (23) – AS Langen/Mörfelden (24) *125100* / 12885 (10,3%) *4+4*
44. *A3 NW* AK Ratingen-Ost (A44) – AS Mettmann (18) *124500* / 12575 (10,1%) *3+3*
45. *A100 BE* AD Charlottenburg (A111) – AS Spandauer Damm (6) *122800* / 5649 (4,6%) *3+3*
46. *A3 NW* AS Oberhausen-Holten (11) – AK Oberhausen-West (A42) *122700* / 19141 (15,6%) *3+3*
47. *A5 HE* AK Bad Homburger Kreuz (A661) – AK Nordwestkreuz Frankfurt (A66) *122100* / 11966 (9,8%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
48. *A99 BY* AS Aschheim/Ismaning (14) – AS Kirchheim b. München (15) *121200* / 17695 (14,6%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
49. *A5 HE* AS Weiterstadt (25) – AD Darmstadt (A672) *120700* / 13036 (10,8%) *4+4*
50. *A4 NW* AK Köln-Süd (A555) – AS Köln-Poll (13) *120500* / 12773 (10,6%) *3+3*
51. *A3 HE* AK Offenbacher Kreuz (A661) – AS Obertshausen (53) *119700* / 13167 (11%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
52. *A1 NW* AK Leverkusen-West (A59) – AS Köln-Niehl (100) *119400* / 14089 (11,8%) *3+3*
53. *A9 BY* AK Neufahrn (A92) – AS Eching (69) *119300* / 11334 (9,5%) *4+4*
54. *A3 NW* AK Hilden (A46) – AS Solingen (20) *119200* / 12278 (10,3%) *3+3*
55. *A3 HE* AS Obertshausen (53) – AS Hanau (54) *119200* / 13112 (11%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
56. *A66 HE* AS Kelkheim (15) – AS F-Höchst (16) *118700* / 5460 (4,6%) *3+3*
57. *A57 NW* AS Köln-Longerich (28) – AS Köln-Bickendorf (29) *118500* / 2844 (2,4%) *2+2 (TSF)*
58. *A3 HE* AS F-Flughafen (50) – AK Frankfurter Kreuz (A5) *118100* / 14881 (12,6%) *3+3* (4+4 VB)
59. *A1 HH* AK Hamburg-Süd (A255) – AS Hamburg-Stillhorn (37) *117500* / 15863 (13,5%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
60. *A3 NW* AS Solingen (20) – AD Langenfeld (A542) *117400* / 11857 (10,1%) *3+3*
61. *A40 NW* AD Essen-Ost (A52) – AS Essen-Frillendorf (26) *117200* / 7735 (6,6%) *3+3*
62. *A99 BY* AK München-Nord (A9) – AS Aschheim/Ismaning (14) *117200* / 17111 (14,6%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
63. *A3 NW* AD Langenfeld (A542) – AS Leverkusen-Opladen (22) *116800* / 13198 (11,3%) *3+3*
64. *A661 HE* AS Frankfurt-Ost (14) – AS Offenbach-Kaiserlei (15) *116800* / 10278 (8,8%) *3+3*
65. *A66 HE* AS Wiesbaden-Erbenheim (6) – AS Wiesbaden-Nordenstadt (7) *116500* / 6757 (5,8%) *3+3*
66. *A59 NW* AD Sankt Augustin-West (A560) – AD Bonn-Nordost (A565) *115900* / 6259 (5,4%) *3+3* (4+4 VB)
67. *A99 BY* AS Kirchheim b. München (15) – AK München-Ost (A94) *115700* / 16777 (14,5%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
68. *A100 BE* AS Oberlandstraße (21) – AS Gradestraße (22) *115600* / 6242 (5,4%) *3+3*
69. *A1 NW* AS Köln-Lövenich (103) – AK Köln-West (A4) *115500* / 13976 (12,1%) *3+3*
70. *A81 BW* AS Ludwigsburg-Süd (16) – AS Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen (17) *115400* / 11655 (10,1%) *3+3*
71. *A3 HE* AS Raunheim (48) – AD Mönchhof-Dreieck (A67) *115000* / 15640 (13,6%) *3+3*
72. *A3 NW* AK Oberhausen (A516) – AS Oberhausen-Holten (11) *114900* / 17924 (15,6%) *3+3*
73. *A111 BE* AS Flughafen Tegel (11) – AS Heckerdamm (12) *114700* / 5506 (4,8%) *3+3*
74. *A5 HE* AS Friedberg (16) – AK Bad Homburger Kreuz (A661) *114600* / 16961 (14,8%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
75. *A2 NW* AK Oberhausen (A3) – AS Oberhausen-Königshardt (2) *113700* / 18419 (16,2%) *3+3*
76. *A2 NI* AS Hannover-Lahe (46) – AK Hannover-Buchholz (A37) *113700* / 17965 (15,8%) *3+3*
77. *A8 BW* AS Stuttgart-Möhringen (52a) – AS Stuttgart-Degerloch (52b) *113700* / 14326 (12,6%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
78. *A8 BY* AK München-Süd (A99) – AS Hofoldinger Forst (96) *113500* / 2724 (2,4%) *4+3 (TSF)* (4+4 WB)
79. *A5 HE* AK Nordwestkreuz Frankfurt (A66) – AK Westkreuz Frankfurt (A648) *113400* / 11113 (9,8%) *3+3* (2+4+4+2 VB)
80. *A7 HH* AS Hamburg-Othmarschen (29) – AS Hamburg-Waltershof (30) *113300* / 13143 (11,6%) *4+4*
81. *A99 BY* AS München-Ludwigsfeld (10) – AD München-Feldmoching (A92) *112400* / 16410 (14,6%) *3+3*
82. *A52 NW* AD Breitscheid (A524) – AK Breitscheid (A3) *111700* / 6479 (5,8%) *2+2+2+2*
83. *A46 NW* AK Hilden (A3) – AS Hilden (28) *111600* / 9263 (8,3%) *3+3*
84. *A66 HE* AS Wallau (8) – AK Wiesbadener Kreuz (A3) *111200* / 6672 (6%) *4+4*
85. *A7 HH* AS Hamburg-Stellingen (26) – AS Hamburg-Volkspark (27) *110600* / 11724 (10,6%) *3+3* (4+4 VB)
86. *A100 BE* AS Gradestraße (22) – AS Britzer Damm (23) *110600* / 4866 (4,4%) *3+3*
87. *A46 NW* AS Düsseldorf-Eller (26) – AK Düsseldorf-Süd (A59) *110500* / 6741 (6,1%) *1+2+2+1* (3+3 VB)
88. *A3 NW* AS Duisburg-Wedau (15) – AK Breitscheid (A52) *109900* / 12199 (11,1%) *3+3*
89. *A57 NW* AS Neuss-Reuschenberg (21) – AS Neuss-Hafen (22) *109900* / 10990 (10%) *3+3*
90. *A46 NW* AS Hilden (28) – AS Haan-West (29) *109600* / 8768 (8%) *3+3*
91. *A5 HE* AD Darmstadt (A672) – AK Darmstädter Kreuz (A67) *109400* / 12909 (11,8%) *4+4*
92. *A5 BW* AK Walldorf (A6) – AS Kronau (41) *109200* / 16380 (15%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
93. *A1 HH* AS Hamburg-Stillhorn (37) – AS Hamburg-Harburg (38) *108900* / 14702 (13,5%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
94. *A1 NW* AS Köln-Bocklemünd (102) – AS Köln-Lövenich (103) *108100* / 16323 (15,1%) *3+3*
95. *A5 BW* TR Bruchsal – AS Bruchsal (42) *107900* / 16293 (15,1%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
96. *A111 BE* AS Am Festplatz (9) – AS Saatwinkler Damm (10) *107200* / 6432 (6%) *3+3*
97. *A4 NW* AS Cbf Köln-Eifeltor (11b) – AK Köln-Süd (A555) *106500* / 11715 (11%) *3+3*
98. *A565 NW* AS Bonn-Beuel (2) – AS Bonn-Auerberg (3) *106500* / 5645 (5,3%) *3+3*
99. *A1 HH* AD Hamburg-Südost (A25) – AK Hamburg-Süd (A255) *106300* / 14351 (13,5%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
100. *A99 BY* AD M-Allach (A99, Spange Eschenried) – AS München-Ludwigsfeld (10) *106300* / 14457 (13,6%) *3+3*
101. *A99 BY* AK München-Ost (A94) – AS Haar (18) *106000* / 12296 (11,6%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 VB)
102. *A5 HE* AS Langen/Mörfelden (24) – AS Weiterstadt (25) *105800* / 10580 (10%) *4+4*
103. *A40 NW* AS Essen-Frillendorf (26) – AS Essen-Kray (27) *105400* / 8748 (8,3%) *3+3*
104. *A57 NW* AS Büttgen (19) – AK Neuss-West (A46) *105300* / 10846 (10,3%) *3+3*
105. *A57 NW* AK Neuss-West (A46) – AS Neuss-Reuschenberg (21) *105100* / 10615 (10,1%) *3+3*
106. *A66 HE* AS F-Zeilsheim (14) – AS Kelkheim (15) *104700* / 4712 (4,5%) *3+3*
107. *A7 HH* AS Hamburg-Waltershof (30) – AS Hamburg-Moorburg (31) *104400* / 19836 (19%) *3+3* (4+4 VB)
108. *A8 BY* AS Hofoldinger Forst (96) – AS Holzkirchen (97) *104400* / 10544 (10,1%) *3+3 (TSF)* (4+4 WB)
109. *A4 NW* AK Köln-West (A1) – AS Köln-Klettenberg (11a) *104300* / 12099 (11,6%) *3+3*
110. *A9 BY* AS Allershausen (67) – AK Neufahrn (A92) *104300* / 11473 (11%) *3+3* (4+4 WB*)
111. *A8 BW* AS Stuttgart-Plieningen (53b) – AS Esslingen (54) *104200* / 12817 (12,3%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
112. *A9 BY* AK Nürnberg (A3) – AS Nürnberg-Fischbach (52) *103600* / 16369 (15,8%) *3+3* (4+4 WB*)
113. *A9 BY* AK München-Nord (A99) – AS München-Fröttmaning-Süd (73) *103500* / 5589 (5,4%) *4+3*
114. *A7 HH* AS Hamburg-Bahrenfeld (28) – AS Hamburg-Othmarschen (29) *103400* / 12305 (11,9%) *4+4*
115. *A3 NW* AK Breitscheid (A52) – AK Ratingen-Ost (A44) *103300* / 12396 (12%) *3+3*
116. *A4 NW* AS Köln-Poll (13) – AK Köln-Gremberg (A559) *103300* / 11673 (11,3%) *3+3*
117. *A9 BY* AS München-Freimann (74) – AS München-Frankfurter Ring (75) *103000* / 4944 (4,8%) *3+3*
118. *A1 NW* AK Dortmund/Unna (A44) – AS Schwerte (85) *102500* / 17630 (17,2%) *3+3*
119. *A7 HH* AS Hamburg-Schnelsen (24) – AD Hamburg-Nordwest (A23) *102500* / 9533 (9,3%) *2+2* (3+3 VB)
120. *A40 NW* AS Bochum-Dückerweg (31) – AS Bochum-Stahlhausen (32) *102300* / 7570 (7,4%) *2+2* (3+3 u/c)
121. *A5 BW* AS Kronau (41) – TR Bruchsal *102100* / 16642 (16,3%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
122. *A9 BY* AS München-Fröttmaning-Süd (73) – AS München-Freimann (74) *102100* / 5513 (5,4%) *4+3*
123. *A57 NW* AS Neuss-Hafen (22) – AS Neuss-Norf (23) *102100* / 10823 (10,6%) *3+3*
124. *A81 BW* AS Sindelfingen-Ost (21) – AS Böblingen-Ost (22) *101900* / 7643 (7,5%) *3+2* (3+3 VB)
125. *A81 BW* AS Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen (17) – AS Stuttgart-Feuerbach (18) *101700* / 12509 (12,3%) *3+3*
126. *A1 NW* AK Leverkusen (A3) – AK Leverkusen-West (A59) *101600* / 13005 (12,8%) *3+3*
127. *A46 NW* AS Erkrath (27) – AK Hilden (A3) *101600* / 8941 (8,8%) *4+4*
128. *A52 NW* AS Tiefenbroich (24) – AD Breitscheid (A524) *101500* / 5075 (5%) *3+3*
129. *A5 BW* AS Bruchsal (42) – AS Karlsruhe-Nord (43) *101300* / 16208 (16%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
130. *A40 NW* AK Duisburg (A59) – AK Kaiserberg (A3) *101300* / 12966 (12,8%) *3+3*
131. *A5 HE* AS Darmstadt-Eberstadt (27) – AS Seeheim-Jugenheim (28) *100900* / 8677 (8,6%) *2+2* (3+3 WB)
132. *A2 NI* AS Garbsen (41) – AS Hannover-Herrenhausen (42) *100600* / 16197 (16,1%) *3+3*
133. *A3 BY* AS Nürnberg/Behringersdorf (86) – AS Nürnberg-Mögeldorf (87) *100600* / 15191 (15,1%) *3+3*
134. *A100 BE* AS Britzer Damm (23) – AS Buschkrugallee (24) *100400* / 4518 (4,5%) *3+3*
135. *A8 BW* AS Esslingen (54) – AS Wendlingen (55) *100200* / 13126 (13,1%) *3+3* (4+4 WB)
136. *A9 BY* AS Nürnberg-Fischbach (52) – AK Nürnberg-Ost (A6) *100100* / 16316 (16,3%) *3+3* (4+4 WB*)
137. *A46 NW* AK Düsseldorf-Süd (A59) – AS Erkrath (27) *100000* / 8600 (8,6%) *3+3*


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unfortunately there aren't any good alternate routes in the Hamburg area other than urban streets.


Well, the two future alternate routes for transit (A20/A26 and A21/A39) have lower priority hno:.


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## verreme

Driving from Ulm to Stuttgart on A8. First video is the older stretch:











And the same route on B10:











The newer stretch of A8 is a bliss to drive, but B10 is quieter and way more picturesque. Eastbound though I'd still choose A8 (no speed limits on the winding part ).


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## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> Rank; *Road State *Section *AADT 2010* / heavy traffic *number of lanes* (future number of lanes according to BVWP 2003)


Very interesting compilation. Thanks for posting.

A100 leads traffic counts, apparenty. It is a real pity they didn't close this ring when the city was reunified


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> A100 leads traffic counts, apparenty.


Yes, followed by A3 AK _Leverkusen _- AD _Köln-Heumar_ (6th, 10th, 12th, 7th and 3rd position), afterwards A8 AD _Leonberg _- AK _Stuttgart_ (13th and 14th position).


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## threo2k

verreme said:


> Driving from Ulm to Stuttgart on A8. First video is the older stretch:
> 
> <videos>
> 
> And the same route on B10:
> 
> <videos>
> 
> The newer stretch of A8 is a bliss to drive, but B10 is quieter and way more picturesque. Eastbound though I'd still choose A8 (no speed limits on the winding part ).


Amazing videoes!  I`ve always wanted to drive through the ulm-stuttgart section so i can experience the mountains  but never got the opportunity..

What are they going to do with that section? are they going to upgrade it or build a new road? somebody knows?


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## thun

There are plans to replace the motorway on that section, the new one would be 2x3 lanes and have 2 viaducts and 2 tunnels: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albaufstieg_(A_8)#Geplanter_Neubau_am_Drackensteiner_Hang

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drackensteiner_Hang

Current situation:








http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Reliefpanorama_Schwaebische_Alb_+_Reichsautobahn.jpg

Planned new motorway:








http://www.albaufstieg-aichelberg.de/drackenstein/html/neu.html


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## MichiH

thun said:


> There are plans to replace the motorway on that section, the new one would be 2x3 lanes and have 2 viaducts and 2 tunnels


The 3.8km long section near Gruibingen was upgraded until December 2012 (groundbreaking 2005). The 2x3 upgrade "on the Alb" (22.9km from AS Mühlhausen to AS _Ulm_-West) was started in May 2012 and will be completed in late 2018 (4 sections; part of the famous rail project "Stuttgart 21").

But the planning of the new "Albaustieg" is in standstill. There are plans to implement the A8 as a PPP project and to toll it afterwards. The plan approval procedure was started in 2004 and is on hold since many years caused by a open economic feasibility. The funding expertise was announced for 2010, than once again for late 2012 in July 2012, but it has not yet published (and I guess not yet finished ). Costs: ~ 770 million €. Length: ~ 8km. Completion: not until 2020. (I guess groundbreaking will not before 2020 ).


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## MichiH

Pascal20a said:


> When will exactly opened the part of the A72 between Rochlitz and Borna - Süd?


I guess until 1st August 2013.

Here some pics from last sunday (posted on autobahn-online.de by _sj1_)


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## MichiH

The last phase of the *B246a Schönebeck bypass* will be opened in August 2013. The new _Elbe_ viaduct (1128.5m long) will be called "Schönebecker Elbauenbrücke", see press release. Viaduct costs: 39 million €. The construction of this 3rd phase was started in March 2010 and has a length of 2.7km (OSM).


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## MichiH

^^ Have you calculated the approximate length?

btw: The speed limit will be 80km/h.


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## MichiH

*B30 Ravensburg bypass*



MichiH said:


> The groundbreaking ceremony for the last section of *B30 Ravensburg bypass* was announced for 3rd July 2013. The Federal government provided 1 million € for 2013 and 2 million € for 2014 through a quickening programm ("Infrastukturbeschleunigungsprogramm II"). There's no prediction for completion. The new 4-laned B30 section between AS _Ravensburg_-South and AS _Karrer_ will be an "Autobahnähnliche Straße" (yellow Autobahn) and has a length of 3.4km. The 2.2km long 2-laned B467 section between AS _Karrer_ and _Obereschach_ is also part of the project. The total costs are 55 million €. The first plan approval order was passed in 1979. It was challenged and not res judicata. Thus a second procedure started in 2001, and the order was finally passed in December 2005. In the meantime the project was on hold due to missing money. The AADT on the concerned _Ravensburg_ through-road was between 20,000 and 26,000 vehicles per day in 2010. The B30 is an important connection between _Ulm_ and the _Lake Constance_ area, e.g. _Friedrichshafen_, see OSM.


It happened. The first 2-laned section b/n the future junction AS _Karrer_ and the old B30 south of _Untereschach_ will be opened in 2016 (OSM). The rest will be opened in 2018, see press releases (1 / 2). Total costs: 63 million €. Only 3 million € are secured.

An anecdote: The Baden-Württemberg minister of transport (green party!) arrived the groundbreaking ceremony with a delay of 25 minutes caused by traffic jams on his way from _Stuttgart_ to _Ravensburg_ .


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## MichiH

More news:

- *B6n Köthen bypass* (OSM): A 600t bridge was moved to its final location over a railway line. Newspaper article with pics and a site with more pics. The 3-laned bypass will be opened in late 2014.

- The plan approval order for the 6.5km long 2-laned *eastern B96 Hoyerswerda bypass* was passed (OSM). Also a northern bypass of _Hoyerswerda_ is intended.

- The ground breaking for the first phase of the *B16/B472 Marktoberdorf bypass* will be on Monday 8th July. This first 3km long section is b/n _Bertholdshofen_ and _Marktoberdorf_-_Schillenberg_ (OSM) and will be completed in late November 2013, see press release. The other phases contain the _Bertholdshofen_ bypass and the connection to the B12/B16 (OSM). Total costs: 28 million €. The plan approval order was passed in March 2011. The _Bertholdshofen_ bypass is challenged by a land owner.








(source)

Last but not least:

- The plan approval order for an *upgrade of the district road N4 in Nuremberg* was passed, see press release. It's only a district road, but in fact it is part of the Autobahn 73 "Frankenschnellweg" ("Franconia fast way"), see OSM! A 1.8km 2-tubed tunnel will be built. A through road will get 2-lanes in each direction, b/n _Fürther Straße_ and _Jansenbrücke_ a 3rd southbound lane will be added. The project will be implemented by the city of _Nuremberg_. Total costs: 450 million € (395 million are fund by Bavarian state). Total length: 4.4km. Construction time: 8 years. Layout: > click <. Project page: > click <.


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## Suburbanist

MichlH reports are the best  Always full of details and with links to maps and documents.

==============

Now a question: how was the road/Autobahn numbering plan of DDR? Did they keep pre-war numbers? Something new?


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> MichelH reports are the best  Always full of details and with links to maps and documents.


Thanks . But please call me MichiH or Michael, not Michel. I also do not call you Maiden .



Suburbanist said:


> Now a question: how was the road/Autobahn numbering plan of DDR? Did they keep pre-war numbers? Something new?


See _ABRob_s list: http://www.autobahnen-europa.eu/ges/ddr.htm (does not work, please click on note 3 on wikipedia).

It was only a internal numbering, see German wikipedia.


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## cinxxx

I drove from Amberg to Ingolstadt today. I didn't use the classic motorway route, but the B299 most of the way. It's a nice road to drive, pretty landscapes, forests. Very interesting the 120kmh limited part, short 2+2 section and 1+2/2+1. Never seen a road limited to higher then 100 with no median between directions.

GF was in no mood for pictures so no available .


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## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> 2+1.


2 sections b/n _Amberg_ and _Neumarkt_ were recently upgraded in 2010 (4.3km) and 2012 (3.7km).



cinxxx said:


> Never seen a road limited to higher then 100 with no median between directions.


The limit on the B286 from _Schweinfurt_ to the A3 is also 120.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> An anecdote: The Baden-Württemberg minister of transport (green party!) arrived the groundbreaking ceremony with a delay of 25 minutes caused by traffic jams on his way from _Stuttgart_ to _Ravensburg_ .


I got that info from a newspaper article. A present person reported an actually delay of 43 minutes .

btw: The politicans didn't talk about the exact completion date, but they said "completion depends on funding" --> typical German problem.
Well, the next election for the Bundestag (Federal Government and Chancellor) will take place in 2 month... :bash:


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## bewu1

Is it true that there is a new 25 bln Euro plan for motorways construction in Germany ? If yes, what are the most possible new motorways to be built.


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## ChrisZwolle

If you accumulate the general road budget over the next couple of years, then it's possible to get € 25 billion.

€ 30 billion was spent in the period from 2001 to 2011 on new or widened Autobahns / Bundesstraße.


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## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> € 30 billion was spent in the period from 2001 to 2011 on new or widened Autobahns / Bundesstraße.


How many kilometers of new and widened Autobahns and Bundesstrasse were built during the 2001 to 2011 period?


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## ChrisZwolle

Der Bedarfsplan beinhaltet folgende Bauziele (Vordringlicher Bedarf, ab 2001):
– Neubau von 1 900 km Autobahnen,
– Erweiterung von 2 200 km Autobahnen auf 6 oder mehr
Fahrstreifen,
– Aus- und Neubau von 5 500 km Bundesstraßen, darin
enthalten rund 850 Ortsumgehungen.

(...)

Aus dem aktuell gültigen Bedarfsplan für die Bundesfernstraßen 2004 wurden bis Ende 2011 nahezu 40 % der Bedarfsplanmaßnahmen des Vordringlichen Bedarfs mit einem Volumen von rund 30 Mrd. Euro realisiert.​
http://www.bmvbs.de/SharedDocs/DE/Artikel/UI/der-verkehrsinvestitionsbericht-2011.html?nn=36114

map: http://www.bmvbs.de/cae/servlet/con...vestitionsbericht-2011-strassenkarten-1-9.pdf

In other words, only 40% of the projects listed as urgent in 2001 were completed by late 2011, at a sum of € 30 billion.


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## MichiH

bewu1 said:


> Is it true that there is a new 25 bln Euro plan for motorways construction in Germany ? If yes, what are the most possible new motorways to be built.


Nope. Only a new BVWP (Bundesverkehrswegeplan) is planned. This is a rough plan with different categories. It will be valid for the period from 2015 to 2030. I guess it will be approved in 2016. If a project will get into the urgent demand category, it allows to push the planning of the project.

*The BVWP is NOT a financing plan!* I've not read about the approximate budget. I only know that the Baden-Württemberg wishlist (proposal list) contains projects with costs of 9,4 bln €. The Rhineland-Palatinate wishlist comprises just under 3 bln €. Both states have a green/red government why the new BVWP wishlist was reduced in comparison with the BVWP 2003. Other states like Bavaria again increased the number of projects!

I guess the BVWP 2015 will not contain new Autobahn projects in addition to projects of the current BVWP 2003. This map shows all Autobahn projects of the BVWP 2003: > click < (urgent and further demand).


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## MichiH

Here a map of the final (but still exaggerated) Bavarian proposal list for the BVWP 2015: > click < (legend: lightpink = new road, project was already part of the BVWP 2003; red = new road newly suggested; lime = upgrade of an existing road, project was already part of the BVWP 2003; green = upgrade of an existing road newly suggested). The list was passed with public participation in March 2013.

The A99 southern _Munich _ring and the B303 b/n A9 and A93 were canceled due to discussion. The upgrade of the B13 b/n _Würzburg _and _Randersacker_ was canceled due to locally massive refusal.

The following projects were added as result of the public participation:
- upgrade of the A7 b/n AS _Illertissen _and AS _Memmingen_-South (congestion, not agreed with Baden-Württemberg),
- B16 upgrade b/n St2043 and A9 (continous 4-laned widening from _Neuburg _to A9),
- B301 _Mainburg _bypass (requested by municipality),
- B304 relief tunnel _Karlsfeld _(requested by municipality),
- B310 relief tunnel _Füssen _(alternative to bypass),
- B388 _Grünbach _bypass (requested by municipality),
- B426 Mömlingen bypass (requested by politic),
- B466 _Oettingen _bypass (wise extenstion),
- B469 6-laned widening b/n A3 (AS _Stockstadt_) and AB16 (AS _Stockstadt_) (due to congestion),
- B470 _Gremsdorf _bypass (instead of B470 _Höchstadt _bypass)

Further 65 projects were requested but not added.

The next step will be done by the Federal Government after the next election. It was planned to continue with benefit-cost analysis.


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## Heico-M

First post ever in this forum ! :cheers:



ChrisZwolle said:


> The widening will create havoc, especially the urban stretch south of AD Hamburg-Nordwest. But the end result is worth it.
> 
> Unfortunately there aren't any good alternate routes in the Hamburg area other than urban streets. The A1-A21 route is only interesting for long distance traffic but A21 is not completed and works are going on around Nettelsee as well (not to mention the very poor pavement condition south of Bad Segeberg).


The A1->A21->Bad-Segeberg->B205->Neumünster-Süd->A7 is a good bypass for most of the construction works. Even in normal times, I use this route when I go to Hamburg-East. Alternatively, you can continue on the A21->B404 through Kiel and go via A210 Rendsburg back to the A7. 



ChrisZwolle said:


> Next time I'll go up to Denmark I want to try the A23-B77 route via Itzehoe - Rendsburg. So far I've only driven B77 from Rendsburg to Schleswig.


It is a good link between Rendsburg and Itzehoe, 2+2 road just south of Rendsburg. But there is no bypass for Itzehoe and driving through this town simply takes AGES!

I hope that the A20 has a chance to be continued all the way down across the Elbe river. 



ChrisZwolle said:


> B4 appears like a good alternate route to A7 because it's straight, but it goes through a number of towns and ends rather unfortunate in the middle of Bad Bramsted (B4 goes through the center of town).


B4 used to be the main link to Denmark before the A7 was built. It used to continue north of Bad Bramstedt via Neumünster to Kiel, but that part was downgraded long ago.


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## Heico-M

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Controlled demolition of the old Sinntalbrücke on the A7 (near Bad Brückenau / Bavaria). opcorn:


Did I look right? Is the new Sinntalbrücke only a 2+2 road?

Are there no plans of widening the A7 to 3+3 ever?


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## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> Did I look right? Is the new Sinntalbrücke only a 2+2 road?
> Are there no plans of widening the A7 to 3+3 ever?


No. The AADT is very low (< 40,000 vehicles/day in 2010).


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The following step is the Wünnenberg bypass (see OSM). It is planned to start construction in 2013. The bypass will be equipped with 3 lanes. The B480 to the interchange with A33 and A44 is already grade-separated.


Groundbreaking cerenony will be on 11th September 2013.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Bad Wünnenberg bypass will also feature a nice viaduct across the valley.


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## Attus

MichiH said:


> The following projects were added as result of the public participation


A majority of them is not for car traffic but for inhabitants having rest. A very usual situation, nonetheless.


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## verreme

^^ Is the 2+1 section also numbered A60?


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## Des

MichiH said:


> The A45 was one of the greatest Autobahns I've ever driven! Only the current constructions and its speed limits are annoying! The A7 near Kassel is also amazing. I am looking forward driving there tomorrow , but I am in two minds: shall I drive on the A45 or on the A7? The A45 route is a little bit longer but the lot of constructions on the A7 are annoying...


For a second I thought you were talking about the Audi A7 and the Mercedes A45 AMG :lol:


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## Suburbanist

Is there a rule to specify whether those military traffic signs are, or are not, placed on German highways, and where?


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## cougar1989

I will show you some pictures from my Roadtrip trough the EU+EFTA from 15/07/13 until 19/07/13. The pictures from abroad you see it in the different threads.
A30 from near Bad Oeynhausen until the Border to NL.


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## cougar1989

Way back from Austria to Home A3 - A93 - A72 and B94


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## Balth

Hope you don't mind me asking here, but seeing as you're the experts I thought I'd try...

Anyway, I'm going to drive from London to Stockholm, probably on leaving on Monday night. The ferry arrives in Calais at 03.20 on Tuesday morning, and the ferry from Rostock to Trelleborg departs at 15.00 in the afternoon. That probably gives me about 10 hours to cover the best part of 900km, accounting for getting on and off the ferries. I'm sort of in two minds as to whether it's a feasible timetable. What do you say? I'm not shy of pressing the loud pedal, but I'm also quite conscious of the fact that I'd be hitting the rush hour pretty badly. In my mind I should be able to clear France, Belgium and the Netherlands before hitting the A1 and any subsequent traffic jams.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Netherlands and Northern Germany already have summer vacation, so there isn't much of a rush hour. Tuesday is not a busy holiday traffic day. This trip is doable if no incidents occur, but I wouldn't waste time at service areas taking a long break. 

Your biggest concern is Hamburg. There are roadworks going on at A1 where the motorway is narrowed from 3 to 2 very narrow lanes. Make sure to stay in the left lane there, because there is a frequent "LKW stau" or truck traffic jam which is stationary while the left lane remains free-flow.


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## Heico-M

Google Maps says 929km and 8h15 which makes an average of 112 km/h. I would say that this is pretty ambitious.

Unfortunately there is no reasonable way to avoid Hamburg.


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## javimix19

Hi, I have a question. I read that motorways of East Germany were in very bad situation in 1990.

- Since the unification how much time it costed to repair all these motorways? (I speak only about existing motorways, not of the new built since 1990)

- Are any data of how much money has invested in the repair of these roads of East Germany?


----------



## Heico-M

Drove on various motorways in these first vacation weeks and I think that all those caravans and mo-bile homes and once-in-a-year motorway-drivers slow down traffic considerably, also on weekdays. On the A7 today between Flensburg and Rendsburg, my average speed was 90.

So I think Balth's plan may be somewhat too ambitious.

BTW, I found the forbidden word: it's "m o b i l e"


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## Road_UK

Mobile. 

If it's not caravans, it'll be lorries instead. Doesn't make much difference, and less traffic at peak times gives you extra time.


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## Heico-M

Road_UK said:


> Mobile.


Only forbidden to newbies then.



Road_UK said:


> If it's not caravans, it'll be lorries instead. Doesn't make much difference, and less traffic at peak times gives you extra time.


True. But outside the tourist season, my average speed is much higher. Then I can reach the required 112 kph.

The worst thing is caravan setups at 70 kph being overtaken by a lorry at 85 kph on a two-lane carriageway.


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## MichiH

verreme said:


> ^^ Is the 2+1 section also numbered A60?


Yes, it is officially called A60 but it is not an Autobahn but a "Kraftfahrstraße" as you can see in the video at 2:35 and 2:39. Whereas the B28 south of _Neu-Ulm_ is signed as an Autobahn.


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## MichiH

javimix19 said:


> - Since the unification how much time it costed to repair all these motorways? (I speak only about existing motorways, not of the new built since 1990)


It is not yet finished!



javimix19 said:


> - Are any data of how much money has invested in the repair of these roads of East Germany?


Many sections were renewed and widened to 2x3 lanes all at once.

Some examples:
The A2 costed 1.3 billion €: > click <.
The A4 costed more than 2 billion €: > click < (not yet finished, the section near _Jena_ will be completed in 2014).
The A9 costed more than 800 million €: > click < (the section from _Triptis_ to _Schleiz_ is currently u/c).

I am not sure whether the costs are correct. I guess the costs are much higher!


----------



## thun

Suburbanist said:


> Is there a rule to specify whether those military traffic signs are, or are not, placed on German highways, and where?


You're talking about MLC signs? You'll find them at (nearly) all bridges in West Germany (the 2+4 treaty did forbid installing them in East Germany untill 1995 and they weren't installed ever since). They are slowly being removed though.


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## flierfy

MichiH said:


> The A2 costed 1.3 billion €: > click <.


That includes the widening in Niedersachsen as well though.


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## Heico-M

A7: Flensburg - Hamburg

The Rader Hochbrücke which crosses the Kiel canal has been closed for all truck traffic as of today. The bridge needs to be repaired which will take four months. 

The most important bypass - through the Rendsburg canal tunnel on the B77 - has been under renovation for years and will be so for several more years. Currently there is only one lane for each direction. Thousands of trucks will have to pass this bottleneck. This will create chaos.

http://www.shz.de/nachrichten/top-thema/artikel/ganz-schleswig-holstein-hat-jetzt-ein-problem.html

Political parties are contemplating the lack of renovation over the past years. The Green party in Schleswig-Holstein (part of the state government) claims that renovation should be priorotized over new construction - and is demanding to stop the widening of the A7 between Bordesholm and Hamburg! :bash:


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## ChrisZwolle

Another viaduct that is crumbling is the A1 Schwelmtalbrücke near Wuppertal. It is closed to oversized trucks and the lanes are reduced from 6 to 4 to reduce stress on the bridge structure. It was built in 1960 and widened from 4 to 6 lanes by taking the shoulder away.


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## MichiH

+1

http://www.nrw.de/landesregierung/w...elmetalbruecke-ueber-db-strecke-und-b7-14746/ (OSM)

Another bridge on the A1 may only be used to a limited extent because of serious damage. The _Schwelmetalbrücke_ south of the exit _Wuppertal-Langerfeld_, which crosses the railway and the B 7, is still partially closed. The _Schwelmetalbrücke _is a prestressed concrete bridge with a length of 209m.

The viaduct was renewed in 2005/06 in the context of the widening to 2x3. A recalculation of the bridge statics has revealed that the deficits are significant in two of the four sub-structures of the bridge. These deficits also correspond to visible damage. The viaduct requires immediate action. The viaduct must be replaced.

Instant actions:
• Blocking of requiring approval heavy traffic > 44t.
• Limitation from six to four lanes with diviation into more favorable position
• Ban on truck overtaking
• Speed ​​limit on 60km/h
• Minimum truck distance of 50m
• Daily fracture monitoring


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## ChrisZwolle

Report by NDR of the bridge troubles near Rendsburg.

http://www.ndr.de/regional/schleswig-holstein/raderhochbruecke107.html

They not only closed the bridge to trucks, they also closed lanes, there is now only 1 lane each way, resulting in massive traffic congestion, there is a delay of 2 hours northbound and 1 hour soutbound at this time.


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## tool2106




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## tool2106

Passing by Hamburg Haven:



















Entering the Hamburg Port Tunnel:


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## tool2106

After Hamburg, approaching almost the Danish border:


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## geogregor

Jeroen669 said:


> If this would represent how the average american experiences driving in Germany, I'd say: god bless the germans. hno:
> 
> Are americans even allowed to drive here in europe with only an american driving license?





keokiracer said:


> No surprise, he's from the States. he's used to crappy highways...





Deadeye Reloaded said:


> The German Autobahn isn´t a myth - it´s a worldwide known LEGEND! :master:
> 
> Tom Hanks fascinated by ze Autobahn! (0:40 - 6:00) opcorn:


I hope you guys realize that it is a comedy show and he is an actor.

I'm pointing it it just to make sure. At the end of day sense of humor is not the strongest point of Germany.


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## earthJoker

geogregor said:


> I hope you guys realize that it is a comedy show and he is an actor.


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## Alqaszar

I don't know, but a "hard" speed limit of 130 km/h would be best also for German autobahns.

Yesterday, this happened on A 95 / A 952 at Starnberg near Munich:

http://www.merkur-online.de/lokales...rrt-schwerer-unfall-starnberg-mm-3040140.html

The driver of a Porsche drove about 280 km/h at the junction at Starnberg, lost control in a curve and pushed a Toyota off the lane. The woman in the Toyota has dies in hospital, the 51 yeer old driver and another person in the Porsche have been seriosly injured.

On Thursday, I was driving on A 46 from Mönchengladbach to Heinsberg, when I wanted to overtake some trucks. I was doing a good 130, checked the mirror twice, also put a look over the shoulder (after a dead-angle-near-crash when I was a beginner 20 years ago I always do that). Traffic was not dense at all, the line was free as far as I could see, so I pulled over to the left. Seconds later I saw the headlights of a Volvo in the mirror, closing in fast. He obviously thought that I didn't belong on the left lane, doing only 130. He blinked and swiveled very nervously behind me, until I was able to use the right lane again -- after unbelievable 30 seconds or so, the time it takes to overkake two trucks with 40 to 50 km/h speed difference.

Maybe such a**holes wouldn't be stopped by a speed limit, but I still would feel safer.


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## mcarling

Alqaszar said:


> I don't know, but a "hard" speed limit of 130 km/h would be best also for German autobahns.
> 
> Yesterday, this happened on A 95 / A 952 at Starnberg near Munich:
> 
> http://www.merkur-online.de/lokales...rrt-schwerer-unfall-starnberg-mm-3040140.html
> 
> The driver of a Porsche drove about 280 km/h at the junction at Starnberg, lost control in a curve and pushed a Toyota off the lane. The woman in the Toyota has dies in hospital, the 51 yeer old driver and another person in the Porsche have been seriosly injured.


An accident at 280 km/h does not justify a speed limit of 130 km/h. It's completely out of proportion. Second, the Porsche driver should spend some time in prison for manslaughter and never, ever be allowed to drive again.



Alqaszar said:


> On Thursday, I was driving on A 46 from Mönchengladbach to Heinsberg, when I wanted to overtake some trucks. I was doing a good 130, checked the mirror twice, also put a look over the shoulder (after a dead-angle-near-crash when I was a beginner 20 years ago I always do that). Traffic was not dense at all, the line was free as far as I could see, so I pulled over to the left. Seconds later I saw the headlights of a Volvo in the mirror, closing in fast. He obviously thought that I didn't belong on the left lane, doing only 130. He blinked and swiveled very nervously behind me, until I was able to use the right lane again -- after unbelievable 30 seconds or so, the time it takes to overkake two trucks with 40 to 50 km/h speed difference.
> 
> Maybe such a**holes wouldn't be stopped by a speed limit, but I still would feel safer.


Either 1) you should have overtaken at a more reasonable overtaking speed of 150 or 160 km/h or 2) you should have moved in between the two trucks after you saw that you were obstructing traffic or 3) waited until you could see a greater distance behind you. 30 seconds is way too long to be obstructing the overtaking lane. When I'm overtaking, my own rule is to never obstruct a faster vehicle for more than 3-5 seconds.


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## Road_UK

30 seconds is never to long to obstruct an overtaking lane if you're genuinely overtaking. I don't agree with any of your points. When the overtaking lane is clear, you have the right to overtake at any speed for as long as it takes. After overtaking you move back to the inside. That's how it works. Don't let any impatient **** force you to manoeuvre in between lorries when you're genuinely overtaking...

It's not a crime to be overtaking at 130 kph.


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## ChrisZwolle

If someone chooses to drive substantially faster than the crowd, then it's his problem dealing with cars driving a normal speed, not yours. As long as you don't go to the left lane at the very last moment, you are free to pass any truck.


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## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> It's not a crime to be overtaking at 130 kph.


Nor is anything the Volvo driver did a crime. There is a big difference between inconsiderate and criminal. On the other hand, the Porsche driver did commit a crime -- with the laws as they are today.


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## Road_UK

... or any other vehicle for that matter...


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## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> Nor is anything the Volvo driver did a crime. There is a big difference between inconsiderate and criminal. On the other hand, the Porsche driver did commit a crime -- with the laws as they are today.


The Volvo driver has committed an offence. It's aggressive behaviour. He should have kept his distance and let the author of the post in question do his overtaking until there's nothing left to overtake.


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## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> The Volvo driver has committed an offence. It's aggressive behaviour. He should have kept his distance and let the author of the post in question do his overtaking until there's nothing left to overtake.


... IF (a very big IF) the Volvo driver was _in law_ following too closely, which I don't believe has been established.


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## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> ... IF (a very big IF) the Volvo driver was in law following too closely, which I don't believe has been established.





Alqaszar said:


> Seconds later I saw the headlights of a Volvo in the mirror, closing in fast. He obviously thought that I didn't belong on the left lane, doing only 130. He blinked and swiveled very nervously behind me,


Now that is aggressive behaviour.


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## mcarling

Road_UK said:


> Now that is aggressive behaviour.


What constitutes aggressive behavior _in your opinion_ (or mine) is not necessarily the same as what constitutes aggressive behavior in criminal law. You are very quick to accuse others of crime, when no court has made that determination.


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## Road_UK

In Germany it's a punishable offence to stick your middle finger up to someone in traffic. Swerving aggressively behind someone, continuously flashing your lights can cause a panic reaction, which is a recipe for a potential accident. It's not my own interpretation, it is in fact the law.


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## Kampflamm

mcarling said:


> Nor is anything the Volvo driver did a crime.


Tailgating definitely is an offense in Germany. And judging by Alqaszar's comments, he was definitely far too close for comfort.


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## mcarling

Whether someone is tailgating or not is not defined in law by the comfort level of other drivers. Making other drivers uncomfortable is inconsiderate, but may or may not be legal depending on factors which are not in evidence here.


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## Kampflamm

The point is that if the Volvo is right behind you (which was the case if Alqaszar's account is anything to go by...and I'm sure most other drivers have been in a similar situation on the Autobahn since those nuts don't really keep a safe distance) then he is definitely tailgating, it's as simple as that.


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## Road_UK

Exactly.


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## mcarling

Kampflamm said:


> The point is that if the Volvo is right behind you (which was the case if Alqaszar's account is anything to go by...and I'm sure most other drivers have been in a similar situation on the Autobahn since those nuts don't really keep a safe distance) then he is definitely tailgating, it's as simple as that.


No judge will convict anyone of a crime based on "he was right behind me" which, depending on the interpretation of the panicked driver, could have been 1 meter, 10 meters, 100 meters, or just about any other distance within sight range. A judge would want to know the specific distance and would probably want some evidence such as a photo, or video, or the testimony of a police officer in order to convict the Volvo driver of a crime. In the case of the Porsche driver, we have a specific verifiable consequence (death, not just an allegedly panicked driver), a specific cause (the accident), and a specific basis of fault (280 km/h, not something vague like "very very fast" or "right behind me"). In the Porsche case, those are all verifiable facts and form a basis for stating that a crime has been committed. All of that is absent in the Volvo case and there is no basis here on which to prosecute the Volvo driver, let alone convict of a crime. If you have evidence of a specific following distance, then you may have a case.


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## Road_UK

Nervously swerving, flashing his headlights... You can bet a pair of monkeys bullocks that he was right up his arse. Either way, the author of the story was clearly intimidated, otherwise he wouldn't have posted his story on here. And intimidating, threatening behaviour on the roads is illegal.


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## Heico-M

Guys, this discussion does not lead anywhere.

The user Mcarling is obvioulsly defending the Volvo driver all the time, which makes it obvious that he drives just the same.

Apparently he is not aware of the fact (or denies to accept) that this behaviour is outright crime (Nötigung) and can lead to prison. 

A general speed limit would solve many of the problems we have on German motorways. The named Porsche accident would not have happened (assumed the Porsche driver sticks to speed limits at all), and even many traffic jams could be reduced. There has been done enough research to prove that. Still, I am myself not in favour of a general speed limit. Why not, if the advantages are so obvious? Well it is maybe just the fact, that I want to be allowed to go 150 or 180 if I think it is required (if I want to come home after a long drive, e.g.) So it is mainly pure egoism.


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## keokiracer

The only thing I'd like to contribute:


Alqaszar said:


> I don't know, but a "hard" speed limit of 130 km/h would be best also for German autobahns.
> (...)
> Maybe such a**holes wouldn't be stopped by a speed limit, but I still would feel safer.


Then what's the point of the speed limit if it doesn't stop the lunatics? Most people know how they should drive on the German Autobahn, why spoil that because of a couple of retards that wont be stopped by the new speed limit anyway?


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## Wilhem275

It helps isolating them.

I too am not in favour of introducing limits, but it usually happens when people abuse their rights. First rule about safe speeding is to understand others may drive slower than me and it's their right to do so, it's not my right to fly over their heads.

Another option could be to introduce a high general limit, let's say 160 or 180. It's still very fast, but not a lot faster than the rest of traffic. You may still overtake a car doing 130 with the same speed difference between 130 and a truck.

And I'd seriously consider a special license for going over 130. Modern cars have no problem in doing that, but the system cannot rely just on the hope that drivers collected enough experience before going fast.


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## Alqaszar

The "Richtgeschwindigkeit" 130 km/h does actually mean a thing, especially if an accident occurs (the Porsche driver will have to deal with that): Driving more than 130, there will always be created a "Mitschuld" (joint responsibilty), even if the fast driver didn't do anything wrong and the other guy actually did. The insurance won't cover the full expenses of the own damage, and there can be legal consequences up to manslaughter -- just because you were doing more than 130 and the other guy pulled in front of you without checking the mirrors.

So, doing more than 130 always happens at own risk. The road code states that overtaking is ok if the speed difference is 20 km/h or more. The right line clogged with trucks (as always), traffic running with around 90 km/h, 110 km/h is legally sufficient (although creating unecessary queues especially in dense traffic -- grandma was tired being caught between the trucks).

Basically, there is no general speed limit in Germany. But doing more than 130, you are at your own risk.


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## cinxxx

I had an encounter today with a BMW driver with M plates. I was doing around 150 km/h on the A95, and was overtaking 2 cars, doing somewhere around 130 I guess. The asshole stuck to my rear and gave light flashes waving his hands. I didn't budge, continued my overtaking without accelerating more, and then moved right.


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## OulaL

mcarling said:


> Either 1) you should have overtaken at a more reasonable overtaking speed of 150 or 160 km/h or 2) you should have moved in between the two trucks after you saw that you were obstructing traffic or 3) waited until you could see a greater distance behind you. 30 seconds is way too long to be obstructing the overtaking lane. When I'm overtaking, my own rule is to never obstruct a faster vehicle for more than 3-5 seconds.


Traffic is not obstructed, when it is allowed to flow at 130 km/h.


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## verreme

German drivers are usually polite and used to drive at high speeds and live with high-speed traffic if they don't. I wouldn't find it fair to implement a speed limit just because you may encounter one lunatic a year on Autobahnen. Speed limits do not make bad drivers disappear. Driving in other countries you may also occasionally find someone driving too fast, tailgating and/or weaving.


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## Stahlsturm

Road_UK said:


> In Germany it's a punishable offence to stick your middle finger up to someone in traffic. Swerving aggressively behind someone, continuously flashing your lights can cause a panic reaction, which is a recipe for a potential accident. It's not my own interpretation, it is in fact the law.


Actually, using your "blinkers" is legal in Germany to indicate that you intend to pass at high speed, using your high beams isn't. But it's a very minor offense that basically is never prosecuted.

From the original description I'd say the Volvo driver was just an idiot. What's the point of blinking and flashing at someone who's passing? Of course, there are those people who stay on the passing lane even though the next truck is like a kilometer ahead thinking they are in the right. Those I usually just pass on the right lane because that has FAR less severe consequences than tailgating.


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## Stahlsturm

OulaL said:


> Traffic is not obstructed, when it is allowed to flow at 130 km/h.


That would depend on the situation. If the fast car comes from behind and you pull right in front of it then you are an obstruction because the one changing a lane (the slow driver in my example) has to give the right of way to the driver who already is on a lane.


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## Heico-M

Stahlsturm said:


> From the original description I'd say the Volvo driver was just an idiot. What's the point of blinking and flashing at someone who's passing? Of course, there are those people who stay on the passing lane even though the next truck is like a kilometer ahead thinking they are in the right. Those I usually just pass on the right lane because that has FAR less severe consequences than tailgating.


Most of the time, I found it was enough just to close a little up, no blinking, no high beams, not coming too close. That's like making my point clear the polite way.


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## Stahlsturm

Wilhem275 said:


> And I'd seriously consider a special license for going over 130. Modern cars have no problem in doing that, but the system cannot rely just on the hope that drivers collected enough experience before going fast.


You actually have to pass a special driver training to legally drive a car (or have your car "opened up") that can do faster than 250 kmh in Germany. 

Maybe they should instead do the same thing they do with motorcycles, you have a restriction in motor size for a few years after you make your license to gain "driving experience".


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## Stahlsturm

Heico-M said:


> Most of the time, I found it was enough just to close a little up, no blinking, no high beams, not coming too close. That's like making my point clear the polite way.


Yeah, in Germany blinking usually has the exact opposit effect because people then get stubborn and want to show you. I personally often drive 200 kmh and faster when the situation allows and when someone pulls out in front of me, well, unless I have to brake like a maniac to avoid an accident I just shrug. I've had much less highly powered vihicles in my life so I know slower people want to pass too. The best solution is usually to just take the foot off the gas and roll and that slows you down just enough for the slow guy to safely pass and get back on the right lane without freaking out. And seriously, why anyone would want to guy in front of you be scared is beyond me. he'll likely just slow down and make things even longer or (worst case) cause an accident in which you will be involved with near absolute certainty. And boy, THAT'LL slow you down real bad.


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## cinxxx

Oh, lane hogging is another topic, it was terrible yesterday, on the A9, with 3 lanes, lane 2 and 3 were full, while the first was many times almost empty. I passed many cars from the 1st lane, they didn't budge, stayed on the 2nd or 3rd after that.

About letting fast cars pass you even though you are on the left lane, I always do that if I can safely go right and then resume my overtaking, but not if I have to brake hard after moving right, I did that a few times and it sucks, you can also get passed by cars you passed seconds ago and get stuck with slow cars. I also refuse to move between trucks, I won't get out of there easily after that. Only if there is enough distance between them that I don't have to slow to much.


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## g.spinoza

Stahlsturm said:


> And seriously, why anyone would want to guy in front of you be scared is beyond me. he'll likely just slow down and make things even longer


In my opinion most of the times fast drivers don't actually care about arriving early at destination - unless their dad is in hospital or they have to catch a plane and gf wasted time packing and doing her make up. They do that for the thrill, the adrenaline, feeling superior to the poor city-car guys who are limited to an unimpressive 140 km/h. And scaring the bejisus out of them is part of this - sick - game.


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## Stahlsturm

cinxxx said:


> Oh, lane hogging is another topic, it was terrible yesterday, on the A9, with 3 lanes, lane 2 and 3 were full, while the first was many times almost empty. I passed many cars from the 1st lane, they didn't budge, stayed on the 2nd or 3rd after that.
> 
> About letting fast cars pass you even though you are on the left lane, I always do that if I can safely go right and then resume my overtaking, but not if I have to brake hard after moving right, I did that a few times and it sucks, you can also get passed by cars you passed seconds ago and get stuck with slow cars. I also refuse to move between trucks, I won't get out of there easily after that. Only if there is enough distance between them that I don't have to slow to much.


Since I have first hand experience with 45 PS and with 200 PS I always ask myself "What would you do if you were in the other car" and when the guy does exactly what I would do too, were I in his car, how can I possibly be pissed off about him ? I have a strong "live and let live" philosophy.

And, I understand why someone would not go on the right lane for a short moment to let a fast car pass, it happens plenty of times that you are trying to be nice and then the ass you just let by drives next to you and you have to brake like a maniac to avoid the next truck. In my opinion it is the responsibility of the passing car to watch out for the other guy so he does NOT get stuck himself. Fairness is the key word I guess.


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## Stahlsturm

g.spinoza said:


> In my opinion most of the times fast drivers don't actually care about arriving early at destination - unless their dad is in hospital or they have to catch a plane and gf wasted time packing and doing her make up. They do that for the thrill, the adrenaline, feeling superior to the poor city-car guys who are limited to an unimpressive 140 km/h. And scaring the bejisus out of them is part of this - sick - game.


Yeah those are the ones who are 90 centimeters behind you flashing and blinking even though you pass a line of trucks and couldn't make way unless by going UNDER a truck bed. Behaving like that is just plain retarded. Those people have a small ***** and that's their compensation.


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## keber

As I plan to drive through whole Germany on Wednesday ...
How serious is the problem of heat related damages on Autobahns? I was looking at the ADAC map and there are quite some remarks of reduced speed limits because of the heat.


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## cinxxx

^^
This is a map in Bavaria.
The stretches with red are limited to 80 km/h. You can drive there without problems, only the limitation is irritating.
So, depending from where you are coming and where you are going, you could eventually plan an alternative more fun route 









source: http://www.bayerninfo.de/


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## Heico-M

Penn's Woods said:


> I've been seeing headlines about the EU doing something about roaming charges for years. Saw one this week about roaming charges within the Benelux only. (And even that seemed to be a "are they about to end?" than a "they're about to end!")


Intra-EU roaming charges have been widely regulated to the consumers' benefit. Mobile data is still a problem, but cell phone calls and SMS have become quite acceptable. No flat-rates as yet, though. But we are off topic.


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## mcarling

Heico-M said:


> The user Mcarling is obvioulsly defending the Volvo driver all the time, ....


I would like to believe I would defend anyone being lynched on thin evidence, especially without an opportunity to defend himself.



Heico-M said:


> which makes it obvious that he drives just the same.


The standards of evidence here seem to be getting thinner and thinner. The fact is my car is electronically limited to 250 km/h but I've never driven it over 200 km/h. 

I've driven over 2000 km in the last week, during which time I was overtaken by a double-articulated lorry/truck on a 1x2 road (DK61 in Poland). That lorry/truck literally ran the Alfa-Romeo in front of me off the road pulling back in to avoid another lorry/truck coming the other way. I had considered that it would have been unsafe for me to attempt to overtake the Alfa-Romeo.


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## KingNick

Road_UK said:


> Not really. It more depends if a specific country has a treaty to exchange registration details with another country. France for example doesn't rat on its citizens, which is upsetting the Austrians who are desperately trying to pursue their monies owed by foreign traffic offenders.


We (Vienna) retaliate by putting wheel clamps on foreigners though. You get your car back once all your fines are paid. 

Council Framework Decision 2009/299/JHA applies on France as well. Hell, they initiated this piece of legislation.


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## Corvinus

The French themselves like to complain about the "millions of foreigners" driving through/in their country and evading paying traffic fines. They sometimes forget that the profit of being the no. 1 country for the number of tourists received is far higher than the "collateral damage" of their unpaid fines.


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## KingNick

Corvinus said:


> Unfortunately, Switzerland is very co-operative with both Austria and Germany when it comes to handing out vehicle registrants' data (mutual agreements and Swiss attitude of not tolerating any traffic offense, even abroad). And there isn't even a language barrier.
> 
> Nevertheless, not all fines from Germany are sent over, since having the data does not mean they can force Swiss residents to pay (in fact they can't, there is no mutual agreement on that), so many authorities don't bother when it's a minor infraction only.


Why unfortunately? It should be the most normal thing on earth to pay ones fines for law violations abroad.


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## mcarling

KingNick said:


> It should be the most normal thing on earth to pay ones fines for law violations abroad.


When the person fined believes that she really did something wrong and believes that the amount of the fine is appropriate, then compliance is relatively high. When the person fined believes that she didn't really do anything wrong or that the fine is unduly high, then compliance is relatively low. Obviously, those perceptions vary across cultures and among individuals.


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## Corvinus

Before it comes to paying one's fines, it should be the most normal thing
1) to set speed limits and other rules in a reasonable way,
2) to perform enforcement reasonably, i.e. motivated by augmentation of traffic safety and not just colletion of money (eg locations of speed traps - do we see them next to schools, hospitals,... , or at the least dangerous spot around?) "justified" by robot-like "law is law, limit applies also at 03.00 am if you are the only motorist around" slogans. 

Germany is already doing better than the majority of European countries int this regard ... but there's room to improve!


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## Penn's Woods

In the U.S. (at least certain states), there *is* such a thing as an illegal speed limit. I once came across legislation in California (at least I think it was California) saying that local governments (cities, towns, whatever) can set speed limits BUT they'll only be valid if certain criteria are met. (Someone - someone who'd been ticketed probably - would have to go to court and convince the judge that those criteria weren't met.) Criteria like they can't be using it mostly to raise revenue....

I think Maryland, one of the few states that permits local governments to use speed cameras, sets similar limits on how they're used.


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## mcarling

Penn's Woods said:


> In the U.S. (at least certain states), there *is* such a thing as an illegal speed limit.


In the EU, Article 22 of European Regulation 562 of 2006 prohibits reduced speed limits at internal Schengen Area border crossings. However, the member states widely flaunt this law. Today, I crossed an internal Schengen Area border with speed limits on both sides of the border at 130 km/h and a brief illegal speed limit of 30 km/h at the border.


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## Road_UK

KingNick said:


> Why unfortunately? It should be the most normal thing on earth to pay ones fines for law violations abroad.


Of course it's normal. But deep in our hearts we all like to escape the grilling if we can...


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## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> I would like to believe I would defend anyone being lynched on thin evidence, especially without an opportunity to defend himself.
> 
> The standards of evidence here seem to be getting thinner and thinner.


The driver in question felt threatened and intimated. Otherwise he wouldn't have said so. Geez...


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## KingNick

- deleted


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## Autostädter

^ Tolls for everyone, if you read closely. I support this because the many transit motorists should contribute to the financing of the infrastructure they benefit from.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ That is a myth made popular by politicians.

http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/MautIrrtum.aspx

_*Wir zahlen im Ausland, aber die Ausländer lassen kein Geld bei uns. *
Auch wenn es speziell in den Ferien anders wirkt: Tatsächlich stellen Ausländer übers Jahr nur 5,2 Prozent des Pkw-Verkehrs auf Autobahnen. Und da sie meist bei uns tanken, erbringen sie über die Mineralölsteuer bereits jetzt 195 Prozent der auf sie entfallenden Infrastrukturkosten._

Tolls are absolute nonsense if you consider German and foreign motorists pay € 53 billion in motoring-relatex taxes yet only 10 - 15% of that is reinvested in the road network. (The non-LKW maut road funding for Bundesfernstraßen is a despicable € 2.4 billion) The problem is not that motorists do not pay enough to build, expand and maintain the road network, the problem is politicians funneling all that funding away to non-road destinations. You need to start there.


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## KingNick

Autostädter said:


> ^ Tolls for everyone, if you read closely. I support this because the many transit motorists should contribute to the financing of the infrastructure they benefit from.


Bollocks, his idea would include a refund for Germans on the motor vehicle tax, therefore an indirect discrimination for other EU citizens. I can already tell you how the ECJ would rule on that.

Also love the myth of Germany being a transit country. Guess what; you are not. Only 5 % of Autobahn car traffic is being account on foreign cars.


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## KingNick

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ That is a myth made popular by politicians.
> 
> http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/MautIrrtum.aspx
> 
> _*Wir zahlen im Ausland, aber die Ausländer lassen kein Geld bei uns. *
> Auch wenn es speziell in den Ferien anders wirkt: Tatsächlich stellen Ausländer übers Jahr nur 5,2 Prozent des Pkw-Verkehrs auf Autobahnen. Und da sie meist bei uns tanken, erbringen sie über die Mineralölsteuer bereits jetzt 195 Prozent der auf sie entfallenden Infrastrukturkosten._
> 
> Tolls are absolute nonsense if you consider German and foreign motorists pay € 53 billion in motoring-relatex taxes yet only 10 - 15% of that is reinvested in the road network. (The non-LKW maut road funding for Bundesfernstraßen is a despicable € 2.4 billion) The problem is not that motorists do not pay enough to build, expand and maintain the road network, the problem is politicians funneling all that funding away to non-road destinations. You need to start there.


Also ever since the introduction of the LKW-Maut, the budget for the Infrastructure Ministry has not been increased at all. So this money is going directly into other stuff as well. Gotta love that hypocrisies.


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## Autostädter

@ChrisZwolle: Thanks for the info. That changes the picture.


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## ChrisZwolle

KingNick said:


> Also ever since the introduction of the LKW-Maut, the budget for the Infrastructure Ministry has not been increased at all. So this money is going directly into other stuff as well. Gotta love that hypocrisies.


Yes indeed.

In fact, the budget has _declined_. When all of the LKW-maut revenue went into roads in 2011, the regular road budget has declined by the same amount, the end result is no additional money for roads, even though it was suggested that way.

In 2005, the regular road budget was € 4.4 billion, plus € 1.75 billion from LKW maut for a total of € 6.15 billion. In 2012, the regular road budget was € 2.44 billion, plus € 3.33 billion from LKW maut, for a total of € 5.78 billion.

Generally speaking, the road budget fluctuates every year, but there has been a downward trend in the past 8 years, while at the same time the need for large scale renovation and expansion has grown substantially. 

All I hear are politicians saying "there will be 80% more trucks by 2025" but they do not provide any more money for the Bundesfernstraßen (that is the Bundesautobahn and Bundesstraße).

When comparing with the Netherlands (I can't tell for other countries), you see the road budget per 1 kilometer of road is € 112 000 in Germany and € 533 000 in the Netherlands. That is a huge difference and Germany has a much larger need for renovation of bridges and pavement than the Netherlands.


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## mcarling

KingNick said:


> Bollocks, his idea would include a refund for Germans on the motor vehicle tax, therefore an indirect discrimination for other EU citizens. I can already tell you how the ECJ would rule on that.


You're right, the ECJ would not allow refunds only to German citizens. However, the ECJ would allow refunds only to German residents or only for vehicles registered in Germany.

Anyway, the proposal is stupid and just populist politics.


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## KingNick

mcarling said:


> You're right, the ECJ would not allow refunds only to German citizens. However, the ECJ would allow refunds only to German residents or only for vehicles registered in Germany.
> 
> Anyway, the proposal is stupid and just populist politics.


No, he would not. That's a measure of equivalent effect since almost exclusively only foreigners would be affected by such toll.


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## mcarling

KingNick said:


> No, he would not. That's a measure of equivalent effect since almost exclusively only foreigners would be affected by such toll.


Nice try, but that would require showing an equivalent effect. In this case, it would require showing that the set of German citizens is the same as the set of German residents. Obviously, it's not. A similar effect is not good enough. The ECJ has never struck down a case of discrimination based on residency. The nearest you might get is last year's decision about reduced transport costs for students in Austria, which was not based on residency of the students, but on where the parents paid taxes.


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## Attus

KingNick said:


> No, he would not. That's a measure of equivalent effect since almost exclusively only foreigners would be affected by such toll.


You have absolutely wrong ideas about EU-right.


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## mcarling

Attus said:


> You have absolutely wrong ideas about EU-right.


Indeed. The least capable of my students make similar mis-pronouncements about EU law. The students who will someday go on to argue real cases before the ECJ make mistakes on a higher level.


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## KingNick

mcarling said:


> Nice try, but that would require showing an equivalent effect. In this case, it would require showing that the set of German citizens is the same as the set of German residents. Obviously, it's not. A similar effect is not good enough. The ECJ has never struck down a case of discrimination based on residency. The nearest you might get is last year's decision about reduced transport costs for students in Austria, which was not based on residency of the students, but on where the parents paid taxes.


Please, tell me where you're teaching EU-law. I'd love to know. It already struck me when you claimed that Art 22 Schengen Borders Code prohibits any sort of speed limit, which is just utter bullshit.

The ECJ never confirmed a discrimination based on residency? Dafuq? What about this one: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/showPd...EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=6229656

Labour and employment law 101.

This is basically a very similar case to the student tickets in Vienna. Reductions (namely those on the motor vehicle tax) are only granted to those who pay their taxes in Germany, others, who are in a similar situation (both paid the price for the Vignette), don't get to cash in those reductions. Who are those, who don't get to cash in the reduction? Almost exclusively foreigners. It doesn't matter where the German residents are from, but where the indirectly discriminated test sample is from.


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## KingNick

Attus said:


> You have absolutely wrong ideas about EU-right.


EU right :lol:


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## Heico-M

Come on, guys, no-one is going to be so stupid to try and introduce a road toll charge only for foreigners. That would be clearly against EU law, that's for sure.

My guess is that they want to introduce road toll _for everyone_. Then they reduce the German motor vehicle tax _for everyone. _Those who buy a vignette will end at the same charge as before. Foreigners pay road tolls like everyone does in France, in Italy, in Austria, to name but a few.

The positive thing is that the road toll revenue have to be used for the road network. The vehicle tax just flows into the general budget, in other words, it disappears, just like the fuel tax. 

On the other hand, German people will try to be smart and save the money for the motorway vignette and will use country roads. Traffic may increase horribly, people will be stuck in traffic jams, and on top of that in the cities, because country roads often go through the cities.Even worse, traffic accident numbers will increase, as it is widely known that most accidents occur on these country roads.


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## KingNick

Heico-M said:


> Come on, guys, no-one is going to be so stupid to try and introduce a road toll charge only for foreigners. That would be clearly against EU law, that's for sure.
> 
> My guess is that they want to introduce road toll _for everyone_. Then they reduce the German motor vehicle tax _for everyone. _Those who buy a vignette will end at the same charge as before. Foreigners pay road tolls like everyone does in France, in Italy, in Austria, to name but a few.
> 
> The positive thing is that the road toll revenue have to be used for the road network. The vehicle tax just flows into the general budget, in other words, it disappears, just like the fuel tax.
> 
> On the other hand, German people will try to be smart and save the money for the motorway vignette and will use country roads. Traffic may increase horribly, people will be stuck in traffic jams, and on top of that in the cities, because country roads often go through the cities.Even worse, traffic accident numbers will increase, as it is widely known that most accidents occur on these country roads.


This way it might actually work, if you lower motor vehicle tax for everyone and not just for those, who bought the vignette.

However, I am positive the overall budget for roadworks won't be any higher. There's simply no political will to invest into infrastructure. Right now this is just a typical right wing stunt. Search a foreign boogie man and slap the shit out of him. Foreign cars are definitely not the reason why the Autobahn is getting worse and worse.


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## Wilhem275

Heico-M said:


> The positive thing is that the road toll revenue have to be used for the road network.


Mmmh... with this naive hope you activated my Italian-borne sixth sense, which is asking me to warn you: "Rule #1 of democracy: anything which flows through a system managed by politicians, must be considered lost."


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## Heico-M

Wilhem275 said:


> Mmmh... with this naive hope you activated my Italian-borne sixth sense, which is asking me to warn you: "Rule #1 of democracy: anything which flows through a system managed by politicians, must be considered lost."


I should have said: the road toll revenue MUST be used for the road network by law.
Truck toll revenues are being used for the road network, alas, most of it will be used for PPPs.
But hey: the A1 from Bremen to Hamburg is great now, isn't it?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ that is an empty one-liner for politicians. They said the same about the transfer of all LKW maut revenue to road construction. What they didn't say is that the regular road budget was lowered by the same amount, resulting in no real increase of road funding.


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## Surel

mcarling said:


> You're right, the ECJ would not allow refunds only to German citizens. However, the ECJ would allow refunds only to German residents or only for vehicles registered in Germany.
> 
> Anyway, the proposal is stupid and just populist politics.


Indeed. The same way that the free market principle is ignored in the case of limiting selling marihuana in The Netherlands to local residents.

Even more, we may be sure, that when it goes about Germany, the ECJ will bend over as if in prison showers.


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## Surel

KingNick said:


> Please, tell me where you're teaching EU-law. I'd love to know. It already struck me when you claimed that Art 22 Schengen Borders Code prohibits any sort of speed limit, which is just utter bullshit.
> 
> The ECJ never confirmed a discrimination based on residency? Dafuq? What about this one: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/showPd...EN&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=6229656
> 
> Labour and employment law 101.
> 
> This is basically a very similar case to the student tickets in Vienna. Reductions (namely those on the motor vehicle tax) are only granted to those who pay their taxes in Germany, others, who are in a similar situation (both paid the price for the Vignette), don't get to cash in those reductions. Who are those, who don't get to cash in the reduction? Almost exclusively foreigners. It doesn't matter where the German residents are from, but where the indirectly discriminated test sample is from.


You are mixing apples and oranges. The status of migrant worker grants the social rights, not the residentship. The migrant worker status (workers status) rights are quite clearly enumarated. Those rights clearly can't be further conditioned by residentship. It is not possible to condition those rights by both residenthship and worker status. 

The status of a student is a similar and there is taxative enumeration of exemptions.

Still, all those issues are still conditioned either by, residenthisp, worker status, student status. It would be no problem to restrict the possible tax refund in the same way with the same restrictions. This would still hugely affect majority of foreign users of the German roads.

You are however forgetting that there are rights or responsibilities that can be conditioned by residenthship and residenthsip only. The right for use of motorway free of charge is in no way connected to the workers right, its nowehere even slightly defined as a social right. 

A possible tax compensation is discutable as whether it would get this status, indeed. I am quite certain that there exists a legal way how to arrange it without fringing the social rigts. Germans are very flexible when it comes to EU law.


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## thun

*New road design revealed*

Four new designs were revealed that are now compulsory for new and renewed (non-dual carriageway) federal roads in Germany. The Federal Road Research Institute (BASt) wants to make roads saver and reduce the risk of accident as 60% of all casualties in road traffic occur on country roads.



> Das sind die neuen Landstraßentypen
> 
> Mit vier neuen Landstraßentypen will das Bundesverkehrsministerium die Unfallzahlen auf senken und neue Landstraßen standardisieren.
> Sie gelten nach Angaben der Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen (BASt) vom 30.7.2013 künftig für den Neubau aber auch den Um- und Ausbau von Landstraßen des Bundes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> *Fernstraßen* (hohes Verkehrsaufkommen):
> 
> 
> Künftig dreispurig, mit einem mittleren Fahrstreifen, der abwechselnd als Überholstreifen freigegeben ist.
> Verknüpfungen mit dem nachgeordneten Straßennetz sollen kreuzungsfrei mit Einfädelungs- und Ausfädelungsstreifen ausgebildet werden.
> Ein breiter Mittelstreifen mit grüner Einfärbung trennt beide Fahrtrichtungen räumlich voneinander.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Überregionalstraßen* (oft hohes Verkehrsaufkommen):
> 
> 
> In regelmäßigen Abständen dreistreifige Abschnitte mit Überholspur für eine Fahrtrichtung. Kreuzungen und Einmündungen sollen in der Regel signalisiert werden.
> Die Mittelmarkierung zur Trennung der Fahrtrichtungen wird mit doppelten Linien ausgeführt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Regionalstraßen* (mittleres Verkehrsaufkommen):
> 
> 
> Es bleibt beim Überholen auf dem Gegenverkehrsfahrstreifen
> Kreuzungen und Einmündungen werden nur bei hoher Verkehrsbelastung signalisiert
> alternativ sind auch sichere Kreisverkehre möglich.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Nahbereichsstraßen* (geringes Verkehrsaufkommen)
> 
> 
> Nur ein breiter Fahrstreifen ohne Mittelmarkierung, der von den Verkehrsteilnehmern in beiden Fahrtrichtungen benutzt werden kann
> Begrenzung nur durch zwei seitlich vom Fahrbahnrand abgesetzte Leitlinien.
> Diese können bei der Begegnung von zwei Fahrzeugen mit reduzierter Geschwindigkeit überfahren werden.
> Die breiten abgerückten Randmarkierungen sollen dazu beitragen, das Abkommen von der Fahrbahn im Begegnungsfall zu vermeiden.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nach Mitteilung der BASt ereignen sich rund 60 Prozent aller tödlichen Unfälle auf Landstraßen. Mit der neuen "Richtlinien für die Anlage von Landstraßen (RAL)" soll gezielt durch die neuen Überholstreifen und die Gestaltung von Kreuzungen und Knotenpunkten die Verkehrssicherheit deutlich erhöht werden. Die "RAL" wurde von der Forschungsgesellschaft für Straßen- und Verkehrswesen (FGSV) vorgestellt. Diese basieren unter anderem auf Erkenntnissen mehrerer Projekte aus dem Forschungsprogramm des Bundesministeriums für Verkehr und der Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen.


http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...sind-die-neuen-landstrassentypen-7519685.html


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## g.spinoza

^^ I like the double non-continue middle line. Sometimes it's difficult to tell which line is the marker for different directions, and that one makes that easier.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Which is why some countries use yellow in the middle. :troll:


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## verreme

My latest video from Germany. Driving Bundesstraße 10 through Stuttgart:


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## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Which is why some countries use yellow in the middle. :troll:


Then you can get confused with construction site temporary lines... unless you use another colour.


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## Wilhem275

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Which is why some countries use yellow in the middle. :troll:


When I was born we used yellow on sides and white in the middle.

Getting out of 90s nostalgia (by which I'm affected today), now I'm realizing the US design has its advantages.



g.spinoza said:


> Then you can get confused with construction site temporary lines... unless you use another colour.


I'm still not convinced by using yellow for roadworks. Too much German, while many other countries use yellow for different reasons: Italy for bus and bike lanes, Switzerland too...
In Germany it works fine because everything else is white, and I don't like it.

Years ago I saw bright red stripes used for roadworks on an Austrian highway, it seemed fine to me.


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## yabbes

The new "Nahbereichsstraßen" concept, is very French-like :]


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## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> Then you can get confused with construction site temporary lines... unless you use another colour.


Hmmm. Can't say I've noticed that closely. I think they just black out the "permanent" lines and repaint them to reflect the temporary traffic pattern. It's always clear what you're supposed to do....


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## Wilhem275

Surel said:


> Not with a diesel car.


Depends on speed. Let's say one will fill up in Germany if he keeps high speeds. That's a good tax: you must pay it if you want to go fast :lol:

In fact my concept of "through trip" is Austria - Rostock... I understand a Benelux - Poland travel is a bit different.


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## thun

I could even do Strasbourg - Czech Republic with my 14 year old petrol car (which does have a rather average range) without the need to stop in Germany. Others would be Denmark - Benelux, Denmark - Poland or CZ, CZ - Switzerland, France - Austria, etc.
There are plenty of routes where transit traffic doesn't necessarily have to stop at a German petrol station. The most important one probably being the "großes deutsches Eck" (A93/A8) between Tyrol and Austria with thousands of Austrian vehicles on it every day.


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## Road_UK

In my French registered Renault Master I've done Mayrhofen (via Kufstein)- Aachen border Belgian side without having to fill up, as well as Heerlen - Mayrhofen without wasting my money on German diesel...


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## Wilhem275

Shhhh! Shut up! Or they'll make us pay their motorways :troll:


Seriously: this should be an issue only if the amount of foreigners on the Autobahn network is significant; otherwise, any solution would probably cost more money and time than what it may grant.


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## MichiH

I don't like that silly season discussion about that stupid CSU toll plans. But I think it is positive to have discussion about the lack of funding for the road infrastructure.

The Federal budget proposal for 2014 was published in the meantime: > click <.

The budget will be reduced to 295.4 billion € (2013: 310 billion €). The net borrowings will be decreased to 6.2 billion € (2013: 25.1 billion €). The Federal Ministry of Transport will get 25.4 billion € in 2014 - about 1 billion € less(!) than in 2013.


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## MichiH

*A72 Chemnitz - Leipzig*



MichiH said:


> On 9th August.
> There was a open day festival on the two new A72 in June. Some pics:
> - https://picasaweb.google.com/tilokat/20130615AutobahnlaufA72?authuser=0&feat=directlink
> - https://picasaweb.google.com/107263249221521178170/AutobahnlaufStreckeHalbmarathon
> - https://picasaweb.google.com/107263249221521178170/AutobahnlaufHalbmarathonAsphalt
> - https://picasaweb.google.com/107263...fAufbauStartZielStreckenbilder_9kmFestgelande
> 
> The northern section - Borna bypass (OSM) - was already opened in 2006. Its yellow signs were now replaced by blue signs.


It happened. Chris has already posted it: > click <.

Pics towards Chemnitz: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a72.htm.
A72 Pics towards Leipzig: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a72.htm#abnieder.
B95 Pics towards Leipzig: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/B95.htm (the B95 is to be replaced by the future A72).


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> - The plan approval order for an *upgrade of the district road N4 in Nuremberg* was passed, see press release. It's only a district road, but in fact it is part of the Autobahn 73 "Frankenschnellweg" ("Franconia fast way"), see OSM! A 1.8km 2-tubed tunnel will be built. A through road will get 2-lanes in each direction, b/n _Fürther Straße_ and _Jansenbrücke_ a 3rd southbound lane will be added. The project will be implemented by the city of _Nuremberg_. Total costs: 450 million € (395 million are fund by Bavarian state). Total length: 4.4km. Construction time: 8 years. Layout: > click <. Project page: > click <.


The plan approval order is challenged by a company, the ecology ground BUND and an individual.
The city of Nuremberg wants to start the construction in 2015. Completion 2023.


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## MichiH

verreme said:


> My latest video from Germany. Driving Bundesstraße 10 through Stuttgart:


As mendioned in the video a new B10 tunnel is planned.

The future 2-tube _Rosensteintunnel_ has a length of about 1km. The existing _Leuzetunnel_ will be rebuilt and will get a 3rd tube. The new road has a length of 1.6km and will be 4-laned. See OSM and project page. Total costs: 205 million €.

The construction will start by dispclacing the city railway. It will start on 19th August 2013. The construction of the _Leuzetunnel_ (58 million €) will start in November 2013, the works for the _Rosensteintunnel_ (127.5 million €) will start in spring 2014. Completion 2019. The Leuze junction is used by 170,000 vehicles per day.


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## Attus

MichiH said:


> The Federal Ministry of Transport will get 25.4 billion € in 2014 - about 1 billion € less(!) than in 2013.


Note that railways, too, have big problems (if you read news about Mainz Hbf., you'll understand it), just like roads, so decreasing transport budget is a very bad decision.


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## MichiH

Groundbreaking ceremonies of the last few weeks:

- 2nd August: 4-laned expressway *B15n from AS Ergoldsbach to Essenbach (A92)*. It is the last missing section b/n Regensburg and Landshut, see OSM. Length: 9.0km. Costs: 120 million €. The funding for preliminary works (including some small bridges) is assured (5 million €). The further progress depends on funding, but the section shall be completed until 2018. The plan approval procedure was started in September 2005, the order was passed in December 2011. An agreement with the complainers were made in spring 2013.
The B15n was formerly planned as A93. The first B15n section was opened in July 2011 (11km; OSM), the 2nd section was opened in December 2011 (11km; OSM) and the 3rd section from *AS Neufahrn to AS Ergoldsbach* is currently u/c (7.2km; August 2009 to late 2013; OSM).

- 8th August: 2-laned road *B90n from Stadtilm (B87) to Nahwinden* (OSM). Length: 9.3km. Costs: 20 million €. The road will partially get a 3rd lane. There is no current info about the completion, but 2016 was contemplated before. The L1048 from Nahwinden to Rudolstadt is currently u/c (funded by Thuringia state) and will be renamed to B90 after completion. The last section will be the *closure to the A71* (4.5km; OSM).

- 8th August: *4-laned B75 from AS Hamburg-Georgswerder to AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-South*.


MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plan approval order for the new *4-laned B75 from AS Hamburg-Georgswerder to AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-South* (OSM) was passed this week, see press release. It has a length of 4.8km. Costs: 136.6 million €. Time for completion: 4 years. The plan approval procedure was started in early 2011. Complaints by NIMBYs are most likely.
> 
> 
> 
> The plan approval order for the new Wilhelmsburger Reichsstraße is challenged by a complainer alliance of 200 members.
Click to expand...

Nevertheless complaints... The official motive is "start of works for noise protection". Completion: 2018/19 (I've read 2016 only 3 month ago).


A lot of groundbreaking ceremonies. You'd think there could be an election soon...


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> There is no current info about the completion


I noticed that with a lot of projects recently. They start building, but apparently there is not enough funding available to finish the project immediately. If there was enough funding, they'd likely know a rather precise completion date (or at least a year).



> A lot of groundbreaking ceremonies. You'd think there could be an election soon...


Yep, even in Western Europe it works that way. I noticed a lot of recent BMVBS press releases for really minor projects such as an intersection reconstruction or just a "baustellenbesichtigung".


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, even in Western Europe it works that way. I noticed a lot of recent BMVBS press releases for really minor projects such as an intersection reconstruction or just a "baustellenbesichtigung".


Exactly. There will be a political "baustellenbesichtigung" (construction inspection) at A44 (Kassel-Eisenach) and at B109 (Kuhbier bypass - very small project) next week. I hate this kind of stupid hustings .


----------



## MichiH

*A26 Drochtersen - Stade - Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> - The town _Buxtehude_ withdraw their complaint against A26 section 3


The ground breaking ceremony for the 3rd section will be on 5th September 2013. 4.1km. About 100 million €. Completion 2020. The preliminary works ("Vorschüttungen") are funded by Infrastrukturbeschleunigungsprogramm II (infrastructure speed-up program II).

The 11.2km long section 1 from *AS Stade-South to AS Horneburg* is in service since October 2008 (OSM).
The 4.6km long section 2.1 from *AS Horneburg to AS Jork* is u/c since summer 2006. Completion late 2014 (OSM).
The 4.5km long section 2.2 from *AS Jork to AS Buxtehude* is partly u/c and is announced to be opened together with section 3 (OSM).
Section 3, see above (OSM).
The plan approval procedure for the 8.7km long section 4 from *AS Neu Wulmstorf to AK Hamburg-Süderelbe* (A7) was started in September 2012 (OSM).
The plan approval procedure for the 15.6 long section 5 (western extension!) from future *AD Drochtersen (A20) to Stade* was started in September 2010. The order was announced for late 2013 (OSM).
The eastern A26 extension is the *Hafenquerspange Hamburg*.

See A26 overview list of the German forum for more details: > click <.


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## ChrisZwolle

8.5 years to construct 4.6 kilometers of motorway? I know it isn't the most favorable soil, but dang...


----------



## MichiH

Damn! It was planned to post the A26 in a different message, but I forgot the B10 groundbreaking ceremony yesterday .



MichiH said:


> The next 3.8km long section from *Walmersbach to Hinterweidenthal* (B327) is u/c (OSM). It is not only a simple addition of a 2nd carriageway but a realignment. The plan approval order was passed in September 2009, works started in June 2010 and completion is estimated for 2016 (34 million €).


They splitted the 3.8km long section into 2 phases. The groundbreaking ceremony for the 2nd phase will be on 23th August 2013. A state secretary of the Federal Ministry of Transport will participate.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> - The construction of the _*Lappachtalbrücke*_ (OSM) started last week. The viaduct has a length of 287m and costs 14 million €. It is located on the *A94 between AS Lengdorf and AS Dorfen*. The PPP bidding for building the entire A94 from AS _Pastetten_ to AS _Heldenstein_ is announced to be probably started in 2015 :nuts:.


The PPP was tendered, see press release. Contract time: 30 years. Construction time: 2016-2019. Length of road to be built: 33km. Length of road to be operated: 77km. See also tender.

PS: Sorry, no pics of the A94 .


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The following *8.9 long Heiligenhaus gap* is u/c. The plan approval order was passed in February 2007. As usual - it was challenged. In this case the order was also not res judicata, thus a addendum procedure was necessary. Due to the fact that only the compensating areas were criticized, the construction already began in April 2010. In the meantime same further complaints were submitted. In December 2011 the Higher Administrative Court (OVG) _Münster_ stopped the construction works. Then the plan approval addendum order was finally passed in February 2012, and the works restarted (but very slowly). The project manager announced in March 2013, that the regular works are starting now. The completion of the first 4.9km long section from AS _Heiligenhaus_ to the current A44 end at AS _Heiligenhaus_-_Hetterscheid_ (OSM) is estimated for late 2016. The works on the last 4.0km phase between AK _Ratingen_-East and AS _Heiligenhaus_ (OSM) will implemented between 2014 and late 2018. The both stretches contain 5 viaducts with a length between 129m and 384m. The estimated overall costs are now 222 million €. See official project page.


The construction is in progress, but the BUND has taken the responsible authority Straßen.NRW to the court because they suppose that the rain detention basins will endanger the groundwater (> click <).


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## Suburbanist

^^ Geez. If they don't build retention ponds, someone will complain about run-off and erosion. If they do, they argue about groundwater.

=======================

I wave a question: did they consider in the past to use more sectors of the former Berlin Wall to build highways over? 

A113 is just perfect


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## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
I especially love this yellow brick design on the side walls! :drool: 
It´s everytime a pleasure to cruise with 80 km/h into Berlin on that autobahn and enjoy the view of this urban highway. kay:
The speed limit makes sense in that case although there are six lanes.


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## Suburbanist

When and to where will they exactly extend A100 to Treptow and the other side of the river?


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> When and to where will they exactly extend A100 to Treptow and the other side of the river?


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=101828725&postcount=4700

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=103085037&postcount=4867

Construction time: May 2013 - 2022.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> It is also planned to widen the A7 to 4 lanes in each direction from AD _Kassel-Ost_ to AD _Kassel-Süd_ where the A44 branches to _Dortmund_/_Ruhr_. Preliminary works are in progress.


The preliminary works are noise protection walls for 40 million €. The section has a length of 6.2km (OSM). The total costs are 92 million €. Further preliminary works for a bridge within the AK _Kassel_-Mitte have started on 31th July 2013 (2.5 million €). The bridge will be completed until late 2014.


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## MichiH

*A98 Hochrheinautobahn*



MichiH said:


> The routes for the future *A98 section 6 from Wehr to Murg* are still in discussion (OSM): http://buergerforum-hochrhein.de/.
> 
> Simulation pics: > click <.
> Simulation video: > click <.


New simulation: > click <.

Citizens' groups and politicians are currently discussing about tunnels near _Karsau_ and _Minseln_ within section 5 (OSM). Long tunnel, short tunnel, gallery,... see newspaper article.

The Baden-Württemberg Transport Minister (green party) has lately suggested to plan a B road with one carrigeway instead of an Autobahn. He argues that a B road is cheaper and can be built earlier.
According to the BVWP 2003 a Autobahn is planned, but only one carrigeway will be built with advance ("Vorleistung", I don't know the EN word) for a 2nd carrigeway.

I think the head of the _Waldshut_ district ("Landrat") has the right feeling. A new planning for a B road will start at zero. The new BVWP 2015 shall prefer Autobahns (70% of budget) compared to B roads (30%). There will be a better chance to get funding for an Autobahn instead of a B road. See newspaper article.

AADT 2010 on current roads:
B316 OD Degerfelden, Eichseler Straße (L 139) – OD Rheinfelden (Baden), Basler Straße (B 34) *19000* / 1349 (7,1%)
B34 AS Rheinfelden-Süd (A 861) – Beuggen (L 143) *7200* / 274 (3,8%)
B34 Rheinfelden (B 316) – Wehr (B 518) *12300* / 1193 (9,7%)
B34 Wehr (B 518) – Bad Säckingen (B 518) (Rich. Zoll) *18800* / 1448 (7,7%)
B34 Brennet (B 518) – Murg, Harpolingen (K 6541) *22700* / 1884 (8,3%)
B34 Bad Säckingen, Konz (L 152) – Albert (K 6542) *14500* / 1262 (8,7%)
B34 Bad Säckingen, Konz (L 152) – Murg, Harpolingen (K 6541) *16500* / 1370 (8,3%)
A98 AS Laufenburg (L 151a) – AS Luttingen (K 6542) *10500* / 956 (9,1%)
B34 Laufenburg (Baden) (K 6542) – Waldshut-Tiengen (B 500) *12400* / 1277 (10,3%)
B34 Waldshut-Tiengen (B 500) – Waldshut-Tiengen (L 161) *21800* / 1504 (6,9%)
B34 Waldshut-Tiengen (L 161) – AS Tiengen-West (A 98) *24800* / 1860 (7,5%)
A98 AS Tiengen-West – AS Lauchringen *9500* / 1169 (12,3%)
B34 Lauchringen (L 160) – Lauchringen (B 314) *13900* / 514 (3,7%)


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## MichiH

*B49 Limburg - Wetzlar*

The B49 is an important west-east connection in Hesse. It connects the A3 with the A45/A5 near _Gießen_ (OSM).

The B49 b/n _Limburg_ and _Wetzlar_ has only one carrigeway with 2 lanes. It is upgraded now to 4 lanes (and mostly hard shoulders). That means that a 2nd carriageway is built next to the current one, and the latter will be renewed. See project page.

- *Section 1.1 from AS Ahlbach (B54) to AS Obertiefenbach* was opened in 2007 (OSM; ~2km).
- *Section 1.2 (Obertiefenbach bypass)* is upgraded since September 2008 (OSM; ~2km).
- *Section 2 from Obertiefenbach to Deponie Beselich* was opened on 15th August 2013 (see press release). This "big" section has a length of 900m! The works have started in May 2011 (OSM).
- *Section 3 from Deponie Beselich to Beselich/Merenberg* is u/c. The B49 is getting a new route thus 2 carriageways are built. Construction time: May 2011 to late 2016 (OSM; 3.4km). The groundbreaking ceremony for section 2 and 3 has happened in October 2009, but the complains were rejected not till February 2011.
- The works for *section 4 and 5 from Beselich/Merenberg to Merenberg/Allendorf-East* had started in 2008 and were completed in December 2012 (OSM; 3.1km). The common plan approval order was passed in May 2007.
- *Section 6* was already opened in December 2006 (OSM; ~4.5km).
- The plan approval procedure for *section 7 from Löhnberg to Biskirchen* is announced to be started in 2013 (OSM; 3.2km).
- The plan approval order for *section 8 from Biskirchen to Braunfeld/Tiefenbach* is announced to be passed in 2013 (OSM; 3.2km).
- The plan approval order for *section 9 from Braunfels/Tiefenbach to Leun* is announced be passed in 2013 (OSM; 2.1km).
- The plan approval order for *section 10 from Leun to Solms* is announced to be passed at earliest in 2014 (OSM; 4.5km).
- The plan approval order for *section 11 from Solms – AS Oberbiel-East* was passed in September 2008. The construction has officially started in May 2010, but w/o real advance. The section is announced to be completed in spring 2015 (OSM; 3.2km).
- The construction of *section 12 from AS Oberbiel-East to Wetzlar-Dalheim* was started in 2006 and completed in February 2010 (OSM; 2.1km).
- *Section 13 (Einhausung Wetzlar)* is in service since 2003 (OSM).


AADT 2010 _Limburg_ - _Wetzlar_ - _Gießen_ (source; magenta = 2-laned): 

AS Limburg-Nord (A 3) – AS Limburg-Offheim (K 473) *30100* / 3191 (10,6%)
AS Limburg-Offheim (K 473) – AS Limburg-Ahlbach/Runkel-Dehrn (L 3063) *29200* / 2716 (9,3%)
AS Limburg-Ahlbach/Runkel-Dehrn (L 3063) – AS Hadamar (B 54) *31200* / 3494 (11,2%)
AS Hadamar (B 54) – AS Beselich-Obertiefenbach-Süd (K 459) *18400* / 2006 (10,9%)
AS Beselich-Obertiefenbach-Süd (K 459) – AS Beselich-Obertiefenbach-West (L 3022) *21300* / 2577 (12,1%)
AS Beselich-Obertiefenbach-West (L 3022) – AS Beselich-Obertiefenbach-Ost (L 3322) *20800* / 2787 (13,4%)
AS Beselich-Obertiefenbach-Ost (L 3322) – Beselich-Heckholzhausen-Limburger Straße (K 449) *20000* / 2540 (12,7%)
Beselich-Heckholzhausen-Limburger Straße (K 449) – Beselich-Heckholzhausen-Weilburger Straße (K 449) *19500* / 2594 (13,3%)
Beselich-Heckholzhausen-Weilburger Straße (K 449) – AS Merenberg-West (K 446) *19300* / 2297 (11,9%)
AS Merenberg-West (K 446) – AS Merenberg-Ost (L 3109 / K 441) *19000* / 2622 (13,8%)
AS Merenberg-Ost (L 3109 / K 441) – AS Weilburg (B 456) *24300* / 2673 (11%)
AS Weilburg (B 456) – AS Löhnberg (L 3020 / L 3044) *14900* / 2310 (15,5%)
AS Löhnberg (L 3020 / L 3044) – Leun-Biskirchen (L 3020) *19000* / 2223 (11,7%)
Leun-Biskirchen (L 3020) – Braunfels-Tiefenbach (K 380) *18500* / 2220 (12%)
Braunfels-Tiefenbach (K 380) – Leun (L 3052) *18900* / 2363 (12,5%)
Leun (L 3052) – AS Solms-Niederbiel (L 3283) *18300* / 2397 (13,1%)
AS Solms-Niederbiel (L 3283) – Solms-Oberbiel (L 3020) *26700* / 2563 (9,6%)
Solms-Oberbiel (L 3020) – AS Wetzlar-Dalheim (B 277 / L 3020) *27600* / 2677 (9,7%)
AS Wetzlar-Dalheim (B 277 / L 3020) – AS Wetzlar-Garbenheim (L 3020) *19700* / 2403 (12,2%)
AS Wetzlar-Garbenheim (L 3020) – AS Lahnau (L 3285) *30400* / 3010 (9,9%)
AS Lahnau (L 3285) – AS Lahnfelddreieck (B 429) *34100* / 4604 (13,5%)
AS Lahnfelddreieck (B 429) – AS Gießen-Kleinlinden (L 3475) *19100* / 1471 (7,7%)
AS Gießen-Kleinlinden (L 3475) – AS Bergwerkswald (A 485) *49800* / 3685 (7,4%)


----------



## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> According to the BVWP 2003 a Autobahn is planned, but only one carrigeway will be built with advance ("Vorleistung", I don't know the EN word) for a 2nd carrigeway.


space reservation (the act of leaving a right-of-way cleared and in place, overpasses long enough, drainage structures ready etc. for a 2nd carriageway to be built in the future).


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Exactly. There will be a political "baustellenbesichtigung" (construction inspection) at A44 (Kassel-Eisenach) and at B109 (Kuhbier bypass - very small project) next week. I hate this kind of stupid hustings .


The A44 happening was for announcing that the interchange Waldkappel will be part of the u/c section Hasselbach-Waldkappel. The i/c costs 13 million €. A temporary connector was designed because the i/c is officially part of the plan approval order for the next section. The savings w/o that temporary connector are 1.2 million €.

There was also a groundbreaking ceremony for the *3-laned widening of the B85 b/n March and Metten* (OSM; 1.7km; 3.5 million €; completion: autumn 2014; plan approval order was passed in July 2012). That acclivity is an accident black spot.



MichiH said:


> The plan approval procedure for the 8.7km long section 4 from *AS Neu Wulmstorf to AK Hamburg-Süderelbe* (A7) was started in September 2012 (OSM).


The plan approval order for the 4th A26 section is announced for 2014/15. Completion 2020+. Costs 220 million €.


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## Stavros86

Hello. I hope I’m not that far off topic.
I would like to ask if is there anyone who knows where I can find and download the official German road diagrams in vector form.
After searching the web, I found (with a lot of help from google translate) the German Federal Highway Research Institute’s website that it provides all the diagrams and symbols (VzKat '92, RWB(A)). Although anyone can download a few of the symbols and diagrams, in order for someone to obtain all the diagrams, they have to order a CD (costs €220) that provides all the diagrams of the signs in DVKAZ format along with a conversion programme to convert them into vector EPS format.
The website provides an order form which mentions something about an appointment and a company stamp. Of course, I have not got a company, I currently reside in the US and I do not speak German.

PS: I know that Wikipedia has got them, but most of them are personal work of contributors and not the official ones.


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## Stahlsturm

Stavros86 said:


> Of course, I have not got a company, I currently reside in the US and I do not speak German.


Post a link to the order form and I'll take a look for you


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## Stavros86

http://www.bast.de/cln_031//DE/Aufgaben/abteilung-v/referat-v1/v1-verkehrszeichen/vz-start-2013.html

This is the web page. You can find the order form in the "Bestellung" link.
Thank you for your concern.


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## Stahlsturm

Stavros86 said:


> http://www.bast.de/cln_031//DE/Aufgaben/abteilung-v/referat-v1/v1-verkehrszeichen/vz-start-2013.html
> 
> This is the web page. You can find the order form in the "Bestellung" link.
> Thank you for your concern.


Alrighty, I took a peek and from what I understand without actually calling them up they don't even consider the possibility that someone private would be interested in purchasing their disc which comes to 222 EUR plus 19 % tax which would be a total of 264.18 EUR.
If you are willing to pay that I can call them and find out if there's a possibility for a regular person to purchase this thing.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The groundbreaking ceremony for the A3 section between _Kauppenbrücke_ and _Rohrbrunn _was yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics:
> - groundbreaking ceremony
> - Kauppenaufstieg
> - Weibersbrunn - Rohrbrunn
> 
> Videos October 2012:
> - AS Hösbach - AS Weibersbrunn
> - AS Weibersbrunn - AS Marktheidenfeld
> - Aschaffenburg - Würzburg (time lapse)
Click to expand...

More pics from the A3 widening near _Weibersbrunn_ from April 2013 (taken by ABDNB; OSM):

http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...te/bildergalerien/a3_weibersbrunn_miller.html (click on pic to enlarge)

http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...kte/bildergalerien/a3_weibersbrunn_dietz.html 

Cannot be enlarged by clicking, but I have embedded them directly: 

Between _Kauppenbrücke _and _Weibersbrunn_:




























Near _Weibersbrunn_:



















The new _Kauppenbrücke _in the background:

_







_

http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...ldergalerien/a3_aschaffenburg_biebelried.html (general pics b/n _Frankfurt_ and _Nuremberg_)


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## g.spinoza

^^ Were those curves in the last pic really necessary?


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## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Were those curves in the last pic really necessary?


Yes. The A3 was built in the 1960th and it was not allowed to built Autobahns with an acclivity of more than 4%. The _Kauppenbrücke_ is on 300m and _Weibersbrunn_ on 400m. The carriageway towards Weibersbrunn already features a 3rd lane. The new _Aschaffquell_ viaduct will replace the first curve to the right after the i/c (towards _Kauppenbrücke_).


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## g.spinoza

Thanks. The picture doesn't show the slope well.


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## Heico-M

Looks more like the motorway is built along the flank of the hill to the right. The zoom may the curves look worse than they really are.


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## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> Looks more like the motorway is built along the flank of the hill to the right. The zoom may the curves look worse than they really are.


Yes and no. The speed is limited to 120km/h in both directions. The curves are not worse but you can "feel" them. The limit is maybe too low but on the other hand it is not possible to drive there safely with 180km/h.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The estimated costs of the *A20 Elbtunnel* are 940 million €. The costs for the whole 12.3km long section from _Glücksstadt_ to _Drochtersen_ - including the tunnel - are 1,102 million € (OSM). The next steps are to achieve building law and to finish the cost-effectiveness analysis. The Federal Transport Ministry wants to start bidding in 2014. (Taken from a publication of the German Bundestag: > click <. There is also a great sentence: "ÖPP ist keine Finanzierungs-, sondern eine wertneutrale Beschaffungsvariante gegenüber der sogenannten konventionellen Realisierung von Bundesfernstraßen" --> "PPP is not a funding option, but a value-neutral aquisition model compared to so-called conventional implementation of federal roads" :nuts


The French company Vinci is interested to build the entire A20/A26 complex b/n _Bremerhaven_, _Bad Segeberg_ and _Hamburg_ (see newspaper article). A PPP project with a concession period of 50 years. The total concession length is about 150km. The toll for the Elbtunnel shall cost 2 €/car and 12 €/truck.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think this is the only chance of getting A20 built within a reasonable timespan. General tolls at the Elbtunnel are acceptable in my opinion. 

The idea is a PPP project where the concessionair gets part or all of the truck toll revenue for a period of 50 years. Generally speaking, these contracts are less advantageous to the government because the company receives more money than construction and operations would have cost if the government constructs the road. On the other side, this means the A20 could be completed as much as 15 years sooner, and you also have to put a value to that factor.


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## Wilhem275

Which is the main reason to choose a PPP.

Problem is, in my region PPP is being used to justify idiotic road projects (B-roads converted to highways without need) just because "someone else will put the money", while the contract is actually overprotective towards the contractor... so that, may it not get revenues, the Region will have to repay it anyway.

But it's a problem of bad administration, not of the PPP itself.


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## ChrisZwolle

Many governments view PPP as "free money".


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## Heico-M

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think this is the only chance of getting A20 built within a reasonable timespan. General tolls at the Elbtunnel are acceptable in my opinion.
> 
> The idea is a PPP project where the concessionair gets part or all of the truck toll revenue for a period of 50 years. Generally speaking, these contracts are less advantageous to the government because the company receives more money than construction and operations would have cost if the government constructs the road. On the other side, this means the A20 could be completed as much as 15 years sooner, and you also have to put a value to that factor.


The French company apparently wants to make some profit. That is what companies do. 

The offer is seductive. The construction time is breathtakingly short. 
What do you guys reckon the state government of Schleswig-Holstein will say to this. 

The current status is that the red-green-Danish coalition in Kiel only want to let the A20 end at the A7 interchange near Bad Bramstedt.


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## MichiH

I think it could be possible to complete the A20/A26 until 2026. But the article refers a construction time from 2015 to 2020. The last A20 part b/n A28 and A27 could be built conventionally.


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## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> Many governments view PPP as "free money".


And with a good reason: they can kick-start many projects, and generate consensus, while the effects of a bad PPP will show way after the time a politician might get bad publicity from them.


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## Heico-M

Wilhem275 said:


> And with a good reason: they can kick-start many projects, and generate consensus, while the effects of a bad PPP will show way after the time a politician might get bad publicity from them.


Politicians only think until the next election. Most of them will be gone when bad effects get obvious.


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## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> Politicians only think until the next election.


Right.



Heico-M said:


> Most of them will be gone when bad effects get obvious.


Most of them? At maximum some of them... (also in Germany)


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## MichiH

Well, let's go on with hustings aka groundbreaking ceremonies:

- *B169 Göltzschtal bypass*: construction start for the next phase (OSM), see press release. The groundbreaking for the first phase was in September 2012. Completion of the two phases is estimated in 2015.

- *B311 Unlingen bypass*: the groundbreaking ceremony will be on 5th September (3-laned; 4.4km; ~14 million €; OSM). The Baden-Württemberg Minster of Transport Hermann (Green party) reproaches the Federal Minster of Transport Ramsauer groundbreaking policy.

The symbolic opening ceremony for the *B260 Dausenau bypass* also happened today (7.8 million €; 1.1km; OSM), see press release. Groundbreaking was in summer 2009. The road was already opened some weeks ago.


----------



## ElCascadeur

Verso said:


> What I don't understand, is why you should (as signs suggest) use the A94 (what's of it!) to get from Munich (München) to Passau. Wouldn't using the A92 and A3 be much faster? And I don't know why they are planning the A94 anyway. Connecting Munich with Linz (Vienna) other than by the A8 isn't forseeable (especially not in Austria), and connecting Munich to those small towns there just sounds senseless to me (Marktl am Inn being the pope's birth-place isn't enough, let alone Hitler and Braunau ), and connection with Passau is already good enough. :dunno:


I think one reason for A94 is simply to replace the current B12 which has a reputation as lots of accidents happened in the past 10 years. Not sure though if that is still the case.


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## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


> I think it could be possible to complete the A*20*/A*26* until *2026*.


Self-fulfilling prophecy


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Heico-M said:


> The offer is seductive. The construction time is breathtakingly short.
> What do you guys reckon the state government of Schleswig-Holstein will say to this.


Governments always talk about the "user pays principle" (making the ridiculous suggestion motorists don't pay enough taxes to support the infrastructure without tolls). But when there is a great opportunity to put that user pays principle to work (quickly building a new Autobahn or widen an existing one) with truck tolls, they're suddenly against it.


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## Suburbanist

They should use a PPP to build a Freiburg-A81 link :cheers: I'd not mind paying some tolls there.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> They should use a PPP to build a Freiburg-A81 link :cheers: I'd not mind paying some tolls there.


Why stop at A81? Why not carry on to Lindau and Bregenz, so that there will be a new route to France available avoiding Switzerland... 

But you know it won't happen. They're not going to build a motorway through the Black Forest like that...


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> Why stop at A81? Why not carry on to Lindau and Bregenz, so that there will be a new route to France available avoiding Switzerland...


Combining with the former A98 plan to get an Autobahn from _Freiburg_ to _Holzkirchen_ (at the A8 south of _Munich_) .


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## KingNick

ElCascadeur said:


> I think one reason for A94 is simply to replace the current B12 which has a reputation as lots of accidents happened in the past 10 years. Not sure though if that is still the case.


I am sure past-Verso is going to appreciate this answer. :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

MichiH said:


> Combining with the former A98 plan to get an Autobahn from Freiburg to Holzkirchen (at the A8 south of Munich) .


That'd be good. Holzkirchen is not far from me. I'll probably be able to get to France faster that way than via either Bregenz or Switzerland. Basel border is approximately 4 hours from me via Arlberg and St Gallen.


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## g.spinoza

But A98 completion is canceled, right?


----------



## Road_UK

Apparently. But never say never....


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## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> But A98 completion is canceled, right?


All projects in that region were canceled long ago: A98, A91, A88, A86, A85, A84, A83... See map with all current and former (1970ths) projects: > click < (grey = canceled).
The A98 is only planned b/n _Lörrach_ and _Waldshut_ and will end in the middle of nowhere because there is no agreement with the Switzerland regarding a route to the A81 end near _Gottmadingen_.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The construction of the 2nd longest German Autobahn tunnel has started. The so-called _Hirschhagen_ tunnel has a length of 4.2km and is part of the 6.1km long *A44 section AS Helsa-East – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West* (OSM). The preliminary works have already started in May 2010.
> The section has estimated costs of 326 million € and will be completed in late 2018 (see press release).


Vid of the construction: > click <.



MichiH said:


> The next A44 opening will be the section east of the above mentioned section from *AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West to AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center* (OSM). The construction of the 2.2km section has started in April 2008 and is expected to be completed in autumn 2013. It includes a 700m tunnel and a 100m ecoduct.


There are no delays according to the A44 project page. But they have changed the completion date for the section *AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West to AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center *from fall 2013 to spring 2014 within the last few days.
According to a newspaper article the delay is caused by problems with the technical equipment of the tunnel.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming Autobahn openings 2013*

A 1.6km part of the *A30* Bad Oeynhausen bypass is announced to be opened in late 2013. It is the section from *AS Bad Oeynhausen-North to AS Dehme* (OSM).

The 2nd carriageway of the *A94 Malching bypass* is also announced to be opened in late 2013 (OSM; 5.8km).

I have no up-to-date info, but it was announced that the *A23 b/n AS Itzehoe-North – AS Itzehoe-Center* (OSM; 1.7km).

The German Autobahn network would be extended by *42.4km* if the A23 and A30 sections would be completed on time (A94 does not count because it is only the 2nd carriageway). An incertitude (no official info) is the A72 Borna bypass. It was signed as B road in the last years, but it was signed as A72 after the recently completion of the section _Borna_-South to _Rochlitz_.

The 2012 extension was 30.8km. The foresight 2014 shows an extension by *33.3km*.

Total list since 2001:
2001: 72.0km
2002: 199.1km
2003: 107.5km
2004: 120.9km
2005: 191.0km
2006: 176.1km
2007: 36.9km
2008: 143.7km
2009: 81.0km
2010: 11.9km
2011: 20.1km
2012: 30.8km
2013: 42.4km
2014: 33.3km
2015: 22.1km
2016: 46.4km
2017: 33.5km
2018: 6.1km
2019: 30.0km
2020: 4.5km
2021: 0.0km
2022: 3.2km


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## Zagor666

Gießener Ring Direction East :cheers:


----------



## cinxxx

Some pictures from my recent roadtrip, from the B20 near Cham, Furth im Wald bypass and border with CZ


----------



## cinxxx




----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> Some pictures from my recent roadtrip, from the B20 near Cham, Furth im Wald bypass and border with CZ


The 2nd stage of the *B20 Furth bypass* (b/n tunnel and CZ border; OSM; 1.8km; 30 million €) was opened on 5th September. The 1st stage (including tunnel) is in service since March 2012 (OSM; 2.5km; 45 million €). The plan approval order was passed in September 2006 and the construction was started in 2007.


----------



## MichiH

thun said:


> Attus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something new, Chancellor Merkel: "We don't want to put more weight on German car owners but we need more money for road infrastructure. We will find a solution to introduce tolls for foreign cars"
> 
> 
> 
> Source?
Click to expand...

 "Vertrauen Sie mir – wir werden eine Lösung finden!" - "Erstens, wir wollen die deutschen Autofahrer nicht stärker belasten, und zweitens, wir brauchen mehr Geld für die Verkehrsinfrastruktur."

I marked red what I could not prove. She said Seehofers proposal of an toll for foreign cars is "rechtlich schwierig" (legally difficult?): > click <.


----------



## Attus

^^
Seehofer's proposal was to introduce toll for foreign cars. And Merkel said about that: 'We'll find a solution'. I think it's clear that she's not talking about finding a solution for increasing prices of electricity


----------



## MichiH

New pics taken by *Stephan*!

New pics of the A33 towards _Paderborn_








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a33.htm#A33

New pics of the A33 b/n AK _Bielefeld_ to AS _Bielefeld_-Zentrum








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a33.htm#Autobahnkreuz_Bielefeld

New pics of the A63 towards _Kaiserslautern_








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a63.htm

New pics of the A63 towards _Mainz_








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a63.htm#A63

New pics of the A659 towards _Weinheim_








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a659.htm

New pics of the A659 towards _Mannheim_








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a659.htm#A659

New pics of the A672 towards _Darmstadt_








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a672.htm

New pics of the A672 towards _Wiesbaden_








More: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/inlines/a672.htm#A672

There is now at least one pic of every German Autobahn - except of A26 and A29 - available on http://www.autobahn-bilder.de.


----------



## MichiH

*A8 Stuttgart - Ulm*



MichiH said:


> The 2x3 upgrade "on the Alb" (22.9km from AS Mühlhausen to AS _Ulm_-West) was started in May 2012 and will be completed in late 2018 (4 sections; part of the famous rail project "Stuttgart 21").


Pics of the A8 widening b/n _Hohenstadt_ and _Ulm_-West (taken on 31st August 2013): > click <.

The A8 has still 2x2 lanes w/o hard shoulders and is now getting 2x3 lanes with hard shoulders. The first 7.8km section is u/c since May 2012 and will be completed in 2014. The next 6.8km section will be started in January 2014 and be completed until late 2016. The western 6.4km and the eastern 1.9km sections will be built until 2018. OSM.


----------



## MichiH

*A94 Lappachtal viaduct*



Pascal20a said:


> Does anybody have pics of the A94 in construction?


4 pics of the A94 Lappachtal viaduct construction: > click <.

The newspaper article is about the wired hustings: The costs for the Pastetten-Heldstein section are about 350 million €. The 2014 federal budget draft contains an item for the PPP project. The designated costs are 900 million €. The Green party is supposing an affair... Well, the 900 million € also comprise the operation and maintenance costs for 30 years... :bash:


----------



## MichiH

*A26 Drochtersen - Stade - Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> The ground breaking ceremony for the 3rd section will be on 5th September 2013. 4.1km. About 100 million €. Completion 2020. The preliminary works ("Vorschüttungen") are funded by Infrastrukturbeschleunigungsprogramm II (infrastructure speed-up program II).


Happened, see press release. Costs: 105.3 million €. The A26 shall effect to reduce the traffic volume on the B73 by 43%. The current B73 AADT on the through-road in Buxtehude is about 25,000 vehicles per day.

It was not allowed to drive with an own car to the groundbreaking ceremony because the ceremony location is in the middle of a nature protection area. Thus a shuttle service was introduced. Here a short vid (in German) to clarify this weird thing: > click <.



MichiH said:


> The 4.6km long section 2.1 from *AS Horneburg to AS Jork* is u/c since summer 2006. Completion late 2014 (OSM).


It is planned to opened this section only for cars but not for trucks until section 2.2 and 3 will be opened (at least 6 years later). 



MichiH said:


> The plan approval procedure for the 8.7km long section 4 from *AS Neu Wulmstorf to AK Hamburg-Süderelbe* (A7) was started in September 2012 (OSM).


The plan approval order is announced to be finished in 2014/15. Costs: 220 million €.


----------



## MichiH

*E233 Meppen - Cloppenburg*



Agnette said:


> And what about E233 road (A37)NL/DE(402) border - Meppen - Cloppenburg - Bremen reconsruction situation?
> http://bit.ly/12Ul77f


The plan for the western section b/n A31 and B70 (OSM) has been approved by the Federal Ministry of Transport. The plan approval procedure for the 2x2 widening can now be done, see press release. This is the first section which reached this planning status. It has a length of 11.0km. Costs: 123 million €. The total length of the E233 b/n A31 and A1 is 84km. There are two project pages with further information: > click <, > click <.


----------



## MichiH

*B49 Limburg - Wetzlar*



MichiH said:


> The B49 is an important west-east connection in Hesse. It connects the A3 with the A45/A5 near _Gießen_ (OSM).
> - The plan approval order for *section 8 from Biskirchen to Braunfeld/Tiefenbach* is announced to be passed in 2013 (OSM; 3.2km).
> - The plan approval order for *section 9 from Braunfels/Tiefenbach to Leun* is announced be passed in 2013 (OSM; 2.1km).


The plan approval order for B49 section 8 was passed. The upgrade to 2x2 lanes costs 38.4 million €. The plan approval order for section 9 will be passed "shortly", see press release.


----------



## MichiH

*A7 Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> - _Stellingen _section (2x3 --> 2x4): 2010-12 (PFV); 2013 (PFB); 2014/15-19 (Bau); OSM


The plan approval order was passed in late August 2013. The construction of the _Stellingen_ section is announced to be started in March 2014 (> click <).

http://www.hamburg.de/np-a7-stellingen/ (many documents)


----------



## MichiH

*More groundbreakings*



Deadeye Reloaded said:


> -* Lennetalbrücke* (city of Hagen): Replacement by new bridge (2013 ~ 2017)


The *A45 Lennetalbrücke* groundbreaking ceremony was on 11th September 2013 (105 million €; OSM; completion 2017/18), see press release. AADT 80,000 vehicles per day. The new viaduct will be able to serve 2x3 lanes.


The *A62* has only one carriageway b/n AS _Bann_ and AS _Pirmasens_ (~20km). A 3.6km long part is now been upgraded to 2x2 (4.7 million €; OSM). The works for the 2nd carriageway began on 12th September 2013. There was *NO* groundbreaking ceremony, only a simple press release. The construction time is one year. The section begins south of *AS Weselberg* and ends north of the *Schwarzbachtalbrücke* viaduct. The plan approval order (July 1983) is still legal.


The groundbreaking ceremony for the replacement and widening of the *A643 "Schiersteiner Brücke"* was on 11th September 2013 (2,5km; 206 million €; OSM). See press release. The viaduct has a length of 1,280m. The A643 is upgraded from 2x2 to 2x3. The viaduct connects _Wiesbaden_ (Hesse) and _Mainz_ (Rhineland-Palatinate). The Hesse plan approval order was passed in January 2012, the Rhineland-Palatinate plan approval order was passed in February 2012. The new viaduct will be built until 2015/16. In 2016 the old viaduct will be demolished and the 2nd new viaduct will be built until late 2019. The current viaduct is in need of rehabilitation, the speed limit for trucks is reduced to 60kph. A modification of the interchange "_Schiersteiner_ Kreuz" is also included in the project. AADT 90,000 vehicles per day. Project page: > click <.




MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The next 3.8km long section from *Walmersbach to Hinterweidenthal* (B327) is u/c (OSM). It is not only a simple addition of a 2nd carriageway but a realignment. The plan approval order was passed in September 2009, works started in June 2010 and completion is estimated for 2016 (34 million €).
> 
> 
> 
> They splitted the 3.8km long section into 2 phases. The groundbreaking ceremony for the 2nd phase will be on 23th August 2013. A state secretary of the Federal Ministry of Transport will participate.
Click to expand...

The estimated completion date of the 2nd phase is now 2018.


The groundbreaking ceremony for the first section of the *B96 Neubrandenburg bypass* was on 29th August 2013 (3.6km; 52.8 million €; OSM; b/n B104 and B96). The entire 10.3km bypass costs 115 million €, see press release. The plan approval procedure for the first (of three) section was started in 2011. I have no information when the plan approval order for section 1 was passed (was announced for May 2013). There is also no information about completion.


The groundbreaking ceremony for the *B245 Bebertal bypass* was on 4th September 2013 (4.8km; 10 million €; OSM; completion 2016), see press release. Preliminary works were already done in the last months. There was no need for a plan approval procedure.




MichiH said:


> - *B311 Unlingen bypass*: the groundbreaking ceremony will be on 5th September (3-laned; 4.4km; ~14 million €; OSM). The Baden-Württemberg Minster of Transport Hermann (Green party) reproaches the Federal Minster of Transport Ramsauer groundbreaking policy.


Happened, see press release. Completion: 2017. The B311 _Unlingen_ bypass construction will start in spring 2014 according to a further press release. The plan approval order was passed in September 2009.




MichiH said:


> The following step is the *B480 Wünnenberg bypass* (see OSM). It is planned to start construction in 2013. The bypass will be equipped with 3 lanes.


The B480 _Wünnenberg_ bypass groundbreaking ceremony was on 11th September 2013 (6.8km; 41 million €; OSM; completion 2019/20). The project includes a 785m viaduct. The plan approval order was passed in December 2011. Press release.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Lots of groundbreaking ceremonies. Are there upcoming elections? 

I wonder why the construction of the B480 around Bad Wünnenberg needs 6 or 7 years of construction. It's possible to do this in 3-4 years, maybe even less.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Lots of groundbreaking ceremonies. Are there upcoming elections?


Yeah, I am back from Bavarian regional elections polling station. The Bundestags election and the Hesse regional elections are next Sunday.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder why the construction of the B480 around Bad Wünnenberg needs 6 or 7 years of construction. It's possible to do this in 3-4 years, maybe even less.


I wonder why generally all German projects need so long. The reason is lack of money in relation to the number of groundbreakings. The slow progress also results in higher total costs. That's Germany... hno:


----------



## MichiH

Some aerial pics of several projects in Saxony-Anhalt from June 2013: http://www.vip-md.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=5&idart=72.

- A14 _Colbitz_ bypass (Nov 11 to Oct 14)
- B245 _Bebertal_ bypass (Sep 13 to 2016)
- B246a _Schönebeck_ bypass (Mar 10 to Aug 13)
- B6n _Bernburg_ bypass (2010 to Sep 14)
- B6n widening b/n _Bernburg_ and _Kleinpaschleben_ (Jul 10 to Nov 11)
- B6n _Köthen_ bypass (Mar 11 to 2015)


----------



## MichiH

*Openings*

Well, there are not only groundbreaking ceremonies but also opening ceremonies.

Chris has already posted one:



ChrisZwolle said:


> A new cable-stayed bridge opened to traffic in Schönebeck, in the state of Sachsen-Anhalt. It spans the Elbe River and is part of the final link of the Schönebeck Bypass (B246a).


The 2nd opening within the last weeks was the completion of *B47 Rhine viaduct near Worms* (OSM). It is the only Rhine viaduct b/n _Mainz_ and _Mannheim_ (about 50km). The old 745m long viaduct was opened in 1953 (the forehore brigdes were built in 1900). The AADT is over 23,000 vehicles per day thus a 2nd viaduct were built until 2008. Afterwards the old viaduct was renovated and now opened for traffic. 4 lanes are in service since 12th September 2013. The renovation costed 13.6 million €. See press release.

Further improvements of the B47 b/n A61 and A67 are also planned (since decades).


----------



## MichiH

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*

The potential for future groundbreaking ceremonies has also grown:



MichiH said:


> The plan-approval order for the section from AS _Sontra-Ulfen_ to AD _Wommen_ (A4) was passed in February 2013. The plan-approval procedures for the last two sections (AD _Kassel-Ost_ to AS _Helsa-Ost_ and AS _Sontra-Nord_ to AS _Sontra-Ulfen_) are still in progress.


The plan approval order for the section *A44 AS Sontra-Nord to AS Sontra-Ulfen* (OSM) was passed one week ago, see press release. The 10.8km section contains 3 tunnels (1647m, 686m and 300m) and 5 viaducts (550m, 300m, 200m and 2x 100m). Total costs: 275 million €. Up to now all A44 plan approval orders were challenged...

The last section w/o building permit is the section b/n A7 and Helsa (OSM). There are still discussions about the route.


----------



## MichiH

*B27 Donaueschingen - Hüfingen*

More potential:

The plan approval order for the *B27 b/n AS Donaueschingen (L180) and AS Hüfingen (B31)* was passed, see press release. It is planned to built a 2nd carriageway (2x2 with hard shoulders) and grade-separated intersections. The section has a length of 4.1km. Costs: 22.9 million € (OSM). The B27 already has 2x2 lanes (plus hard shoulders) b/n _Donaueschingen_ and _Bad Dürrheim_. The B27 is on the formerly planned A83 route. There is also an intersection with the A864 (Ex-A86). The AADT is about 20,000 vehicles per day on the approved section and b/n 26,000 and 33,000 vehicles on the 2x2 sections (> click <).


----------



## MichiH

*A33 Osnabrück - Bielefeld*



MichiH said:


> New project page: http://www.buergerdialog-a33nord.de/. The plan approval procedure is assessed for 2016 to 2018, see time bar.
> There is a flypast animation video which also shows the currently started section (_Belm_ bypass). It contains 4(!) ecoducts on the last few meters in front of the A1.


Animation of the _Belm_ bypass (u/c):


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ They didn't tell this before the elections?


No. I've updated a project list on the German forum today and decided to share that delay summary on SSC.

Date of newspaper articles:
B62: 30th August 2013
B243: 15th August 2013
B464: 24th August 2013


----------



## MichiH

*A98 Hochrheinautobahn*



MichiH said:


> The routes for the future *A98 section 6 from Wehr to Murg* are still in discussion (OSM): http://buergerforum-hochrhein.de/.


Info about the five variants of A98 section 6 and their costs (4-laned road):

*1:* mountain route/"Röthekopf" route; Total costs: 305 Mio €
Total tunnel length: 2,7km; Total tunnel costs: 196.3 Mio €

*2:* mountain route/southern mountain lake route; Total costs: 305 million €
Total tunnel length: 2.6km; Total tunnel costs: 190.1million €

*3:* Optimized combination route (prior to that consensus route); Total costs: 340 million € (not updated)
Total tunnel length: 3.5km (therein Röthekopf tunnel with 3.1km); Total tunnel costs: 226 million €

*4:* Modified combination route south of the mountain lake; Total costs: 300 million €
Total tunnel length: 2.4km; Total tunnel costs: 176.1 million €

*5:* Optimized variant *3*; Total costs: 430 million €
Total tunnel length: 5.4km (therein Röthekopf tunnel with 3.1km plus 4 tunnels b/n 300m and 1100m); Total tunnel costs: 337.2 million €

More info: http://buergerforum-hochrhein.de/ne...sorgt-für-mehr-klarheit-im-variantenvergleich.

Estimated completion: 2029 (or later).


----------



## MichiH

Video of the A10/A24 _Havelland_ interchange (under reconstruction; OSM):





Video of the A24/A14 _Schwerin_ interchange (under reconstruction; OSM):


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A little guess the Autobahn. This photo was taken in Germany in 1977, but the location is unknown.

All I know is the caption;
"_noise barriers in the Netherlands and Germany, set of 37 photos_". 
It was taken 11-11-1977.









full size original


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A little guess the Autobahn. This photo was taken in Germany in 1977, but the location is unknown.


A3 in front of interchange Opladen, viewing direction north.

http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?10,168633

Do you agree?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, that must be it  Taken from the B8 overpass.


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## MichiH

*B317 "Zollfreistraße"*

The so-called *"Zollfreistraße"* (costums-free road) was opened for traffic today. The route is on Swiss territory and connects the German towns of _Weil am Rhein_ and _Lörrach_ (OSM). The road has a length of 735m and contains a 570m tunnel. The first contract b/n Germany and Switzerland was signed 155 years ago. The final treaty was signed in 1977 and the German plan approval order was passed in 1981. The construction was started in 2006 - after years of protest. Total costs: 59 million €.


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## ChrisZwolle

7,5 years of construction for 735 meters of road? My god that is ridiculous.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> 7,5 years of construction for 735 meters of road? My god that is ridiculous Germany.


hno:


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## Alqaszar

The planning lastetd 155 years, so I think the 7.5 years construction period are quite ok compared to that.


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## lambersart2005

a long weekend... and the result ;-))



while the rest of the continental network is sleeping


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## kato2k8

The green near Frankfurt on the A5 shouldn't be there. The A5 between Frankfurt and Darmstadt was completely blocked between friday evening and ca 2 pm today due to two bridges being disassembled near Darmstadt and roadworks near Frankfurt. Traffic was rerouted via A3 / A67 with a 25 km detour.


----------



## lambersart2005

kato2k8 said:


> The A5 between Frankfurt and Darmstadt was completely blocked between friday evening and ca 2 pm today due to two bridges being disassembled near Darmstadt and roadworks near Frankfurt. Traffic was rerouted via A3 / A67 with a 25 km detour.


yes, traffic was a mess on friday and saturday, especially around frankfurter kreuz. Probably more people on the road than predicted after the holiday! But today, everything was fine again.


----------



## thun

Well, those maps are a bit misleading. Would be like complaining about gridlocked French roads and posting a map dated july 14th.


----------



## Heico-M

thun said:


> Well, those maps are a bit misleading. Would be like complaining about gridlocked French roads and posting a map dated july 14th.


Uhm, I think this was just the point.


----------



## Suburbanist

What is the busiest international Autobahn crossing in Germany? Basel B., Brengez, Rosenheim, Emmerich, Frankfurt-Oder?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Autobahn border crossing traffic volumes*

2010 data

* A8 Bad Reichenhall (A): 45 500
* A93 Kiefersfelden (A): 44 000
* A4 Vetschau (NL): 33 400
* A40 Straelen (NL): 31 000
* A3 Elten (NL): 30 900 
* A5 Kleinhüningen (CH): 29 800
* A64 Sauertalbrücke (L): 29 200
* A44 Lichtenbusch (B): 26 200
* A96 Lindau (A): 25 900
* A3 Suben (A): 23 900
* A61 Schwanenhaus (NL): 21 900
* A12 Frankfurt an der Oder (PL): 19 300
* A30 Bad Bentheim (NL): 19 200
* A8 Perl (L): 18 700
* A6 Goldene Bremm (F): 16 400
* A7 Ellund (DK): 16 300
* A7 Füssen (A): 13 800
* A57 Goch (NL): 13 200
* A4 Görlitz (PL): 12 500
* A52 Elmpt (NL): 12 500
* A6 Waidhaus (CZ): 11 600
* A280 Bunde (NL): 10 400
* A17 Bad Gottleuba (CZ): 10 000
* A11 Pomellen (PL): 8 600
* A15 Forst (PL): 7 100
* A60 Winterspelt (D): 6 700


----------



## Attus

A7, bridge over the Nord-Ostsee-Kanal (Kiel Canal), near Rendsburg. 
I knew this bridge was closed for trucks but I was in Denmark this Sunday so I have personal experiences now. 
The bridge is in a very bad state so the authorities made three restrictions:
- Vehicles over 7.5t are not allowed to use the bridge
- Max. speed is 60 km/h, constant speed checks are installed
- Only one lane per direction may be used, the outside lane of the bridge is closed in both sides. 

At the last exit before the bridge (in both directions) there's only one lane free directed to the bridge, with a speed limit of 40 km/h. The police check the vehicles contstantly so that not any heavy truck can go to the bridge. Traffic is very congested, especially before those checkpoints. In rush hours a delay of one hour is pretty expectable. 

Additionally the Rendsburg tunnel under the canal is under reconstruction so that only one tube can be used right now (2×1 lanes), having now an AADT of 60.000. I have no experiences about the situation there, but in the newspaper I read that in rush hours trucks may expect a delay of two hours.


----------



## Des

Drove the A61 again today and what a nightmare. Baustelle every 20 kilometers, average speed compared to the last time I drove there dropped by at least 30-40 km/h over 200 km length and that without any major delays or jams. Will drive back via A3 for sure.

Another update: On the A5 between Basel and Karlsruhe the last 50 km before Karlsruhe are nearly finished as 2x3 (was 2x2). Hopefully the extra lanes open to traffic soon!


----------



## Des

MichiH said:


> The so-called *"Zollfreistraße"* (costums-free road) was opened for traffic today. The route is on Swiss territory and connects the German towns of _Weil am Rhein_ and _Lörrach_ (OSM). The road has a length of 735m and contains a 570m tunnel. The first contract b/n Germany and Switzerland was signed 155 years ago. The final treaty was signed in 1977 and the German plan approval order was passed in 1981. The construction was started in 2006 - after years of protest. Total costs: 59 million €.


Wouldn't it have been easier to just claim that Herrenwald back from Switzerland, who cares about that piece of land with some trees anyway.


----------



## MichiH

Des said:


> Another update: On the A5 between Basel and Karlsruhe the last 50 km before Karlsruhe are nearly finished as 2x3 (was 2x2). Hopefully the extra lanes open to traffic soon!


The traffic is already running in 7 of 9 sections on its own carriageways, but there are only 2 lanes available. The traffic in the last two A5 sections (no. 4 and no. 8) is still running on one carriageway ("4+0"). I guess the section will be opened 2x3 all at once in January or February 2014.


----------



## MichiH

*News*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *WÜ-Heidingsfeld to Mainbrücke Randersacker*: *170 million €* for 5.4km (preliminary works has started; estimated completion: 2018; OSM).
> 
> 
> 
> The addition plan approval order was challenged. The Federal Administrative Court rejected it, but attached a condition to an approval for temporary construction objects. An plan addition procedure started in April 2012, the order was passed last week (see press release).
Click to expand...

The plan addition procedure was also challenged, but the Federal Administrative Court has recently rejected it :cheers:. The subject was a bridge over the B19 south of the AS _Würzburg-Heidingsfeld_ which was enlarged by 16m (28m --> 44m) w/o an additional environmental review. The bridge was already completed in the meantime :lol:.

The project page contains a time schedule:
September 2012: start of preliminary construction
Mid 2014: start of Talbrücke Heidingsfeld construction
Early 2015: start of Katzenberg tunnel construction and begin of all works on the entire section
Late 2018: Completion



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two further plan approval orders for widening the A3 between _Würzburg_ and _Nürnberg_ have recently passed. These are the 4.0km long section 5 from AS _Geiselwind_ to the Lower Franconia/Upper Franconia border near _Aschberg_ (OSM) and the 9.4km long section 10 from *service area Aurach to interchange AK Fürth/Erlangen* (OSM).
> 
> 
> 
> Estimated costs for section 10: 219 million € (see press release). Note: there are 5 viaducts with a length between 50m and 280m. The 94m _Regnitzbrücke_ was already replaced and widened some years ago.
Click to expand...

Preliminary works for the *replacement of the A3 bridge over the Rhine-Main-Danube Canel* has now started, see project info . The bridge is located on section 10, has a width of 94m and will be upgraded to 2x3 lanes. The total construction length is 1.3km and costs 25 million €. The section will temporary feature 4 lanes after completion in late 2015 until the entire 9.4km section 10 will be widened.



MichiH said:


> The plan approval procedure of the next section b/n *AK Herne and AS Bochum-Riemke* (OSM) will be started "shortly" . The predicted AADT 2025 is over 100,000 vehicles/day.


The plan approval procedure for the A43 section b/n AK _Herne _and AS _Bochum-Riemke_ was now started, see press release .



MichiH said:


> The Federal Administrative Court dismissed an action by BUND (nature conservation organization) against a A44 plan-approval order today, see press release BVerwG .
> It concerns the 7.2km long section from AS _Waldkappel_ to _Hoheneiche_ (see OSM). The next 5.4km section from _Hoheneiche_ to AS _Sontra-Nord_ is also challenged by BUND hno:.


The BUND has withdrawn the complain against *A44 Hoheneiche-Sontra* plan approval order :cheers:.

Clearance works for the *A46 widening b/n AK Möchengladbach-Wanlo (A61) and AK Holz (A44)* will be started next week, see press release. The 2.3km long section will be widened to 2x3 lanes until 2017 (OSM). The project is funded by RWE.


----------



## [atomic]

pmaciej7 said:


> I think this bridge (exit Marsdorf) requires immediate reconstruction:


sorry for the necro-post but this is a temporary structure. It replaces the original pre-war(?) bridge which was hit by a Truck in fall 2010. hno:
The current Bridge was put there in April 2011 and will stay until this stretch of the A13 is widened to six lanes (2015 according to the plan).


----------



## MichiH

[atomic] said:


> The current Bridge was put there in April 2011 and will stay until this stretch of the A13 is widened to six lanes (2015 according to the plan).


There is no plan to widen the Saxon A13 to 2x3!


----------



## [atomic]

I guess you are right, seems like they just want to add shoulders and redo a few curves for better visibility.


----------



## MichiH

*Length of Autobahn network*

I've counted the length of the German Autobahn network. According to *my* counting the current total length is *12940.8km*.

Length (sorted by numbering):
1. *A7 *961.6km
2. *A3 *769.1km
3. *A1 *747.8km
4. *A4 *581.6km
5. *A9 *527.6km
6. *A8 *505.3km
7. *A6 *474.0km
8. *A2 *473.1km
9. *A5 *440.0km
10. *A20 *344.6km
11. *A61 *319.7km
12. *A81 *276.2km
13. *A93 *268.3km
14. *A14 *267.5km
15. *A44 *258.1km
16. *A45 *256.6km
17. *A31 *240.4km
18. *A24 *236.9km
19. *A38 *219.3km
20. *A71 *210.2km
21. *A10 *195.8km
22. *A96 *179.3km
23. *A73 *167.2km
24. *A27 *162.0km
25. *A72 *153.1km
26. *A13 *151.1km
27. *A46 *146.9km
28. *A92 *134.3km
29. *A30 *127.5km
30. *A19 *122.8km
31. *A70 *120.0km
32. *A66 *121.4km
33. *A57 *116.0km
34. *A60 *113.3km
35. *A28 *96.5km
36. *A52 *96.3km
37. *A29 *94.5km
38. *A40 *92.4km
39. *A43 *91.5km
40. *A11 *90.7km
41. *A23 *89.3km
42. *A94 *87.4km
43. *A33 *80.6km
44. *A62 *79.0km
45. *A48 *77.6km
46. *A63 *70.0km
47. *A59 *69.3km
48. *A95 *68.8km
49. *A39 *67.8km
50. *A15 *64.1km
51. *A65 *58.7km
52. *A67 *58.4km
53. *A42 *58.3km
54. *A12 *58.0km
55. *A99 *57.7km
56. *A21 *51.6km
57. *A49 *45.1km
58. *A17 *44.7km
59. *A98 *44.2km
60. *A661 *36.9km
61. *A395 *35.5km
62. *A620 *32.1km
63. *A250 *31.3km
64. *A115 *28.1km
65. *A565 *27.2km
66. *A210 *25.3km
67. *A111 *24.0km
68. *A100 *23.6km
69. *A215 *20.5km
70. *A555 *20.0km
71. *A480 *19.4km
72. *A485 *19.4km
73. *A113 *19.1km
74. *A352 *17.3km
75. *A25 *16.4km
76. *A535 *15.8km
77. *A37 *14.2km
78. *A650 *14.0km
79. *A64 *13.7km
80. *A560 *13.2km
81. *A553 *13.2km
82. *A659 *12.0km
83. *A391 *12.0km
84. *A671 *11.6km
85. *A656 *11.5km
86. *A26 *10.9km
87. *A270 *10.5km
88. *A995 *10.5km
89. *A445 *10.4km
90. *A602 *10.2km
91. *A623 *9.8km
92. *A261 *9.0km
93. *A143 *9.0km
94. *A293 *8.6km
95. *A114 *8.5km
96. *A643 *8.1km
97. *A540 *6.9km
98. *A281 *6.2km
99. *A864 *6.0km
100. *A542 *5.6km
101. *A544 *5.4km
102. *A524 *5.4km
103. *A648 *5.3km
104. *A516 *5.1km
105. *A980 *5.1km
106. *A117 *4.8km
107. *A280 *4.6km
108. *A952 *4.5km
109. *A253 *4.4km
110. *A861 *4.3km
111. *A226 *4.2km
112. *A562 *4.1km
113. *A392 *3.9km
114. *A103 *3.7km
115. *A559 *3.4km
116. *A573 *3.4km
117. *A672 *2.6km
118. *A571 *2.6km
119. *A255 *2.4km
120. *A831 *2.3km
121. *A252 *1.5km


Length (sorted by states):
1. Bavaria *2,533.2km*
2. North Rhine-Westphalia *2,218.3km*
3. Lower Saxony *1,433.3km*
4. Baden-Württemberg *1,067.2km*
5. Hesse *977.4km*
6. Rhineland-Palatinate *874.6km*
7. Brandenburg *795.9km*
8. Saxony *566.9km*
9. Mecklenburg-West Pomerania *552.9km*
10. Schleswig-Holstein *538.5km*
11. Thuringia *511.7km*
12. Saxony-Anhalt *409.8km*
13. Saarland *241.3km*
14. Hamburg *80.2km*
15. Berlin *78.2km*
16. Bremen *61.4km*

In addition Germany has also several expressways - so-called "Gelbe Autobahnen" ("Yellow Autobahns").


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> In addition Germany has also several expressways - so-called "Gelbe Autobahnen" ("Yellow Autobahns").


I did a count on 1/1/13 and came to 2365 km of Autobahnähnliche Straße. However, the design standards of such roads vary a lot. I counted stretches with at least 2 grade-separated interchanges and a divided roadway with at least 2 lanes per direction.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I did a count on 1/1/13 and came to 2365 km of Autobahnähnliche Straße. However, the design standards of such roads vary a lot. I counted stretches with at least 2 grade-separated interchanges and a divided roadway with at least 2 lanes per direction.


The verying standard makes counting difficult. Well, 12,940km + 2,365km + 9km (opened in 2013) means we have *15,324km of motorway-like roads* in Germany.


----------



## MichiH

^^ About 62km of the Autobahn network have only one carriageway though they are dedicated as Autobahns. Most of these sections (38km in total) are located in Rhineland-Palatinate.

Considering that we have *15,262km of motorway-like roads* in Germany.


----------



## DSzumaher

MichiH said:


> About 62km of the Autobahn network have only one carriageway though they are dedicated as Autobahns.


I guess that they are parts of the A8, A60, A62, A64, A94*(?), A98 and A281.

* AFAIK It's the B12 now.

*My* corrections:


> 1. *A7 *961.6km


1. A7 971.0 km



> 4. *A4 *581.6km


4. A4 606.0 km



> 7. *A6 *474.0km


7. A6 484.0 km



> 22. *A96 *179.3km


22. A96 172.2 km



> 40. *A11 *90.7km


35. A11 109.9 km



> 42. *A94 *87.4km


50. A94 64.1 km



> 63. *A250 *31.3km


Why not added to the A39?

..., so according to *my* calculations, the current total length is *12968.2 km* of which *ca. 70.7%* is *4-lane* and *~25.2%* is *6-lane*.


----------



## MichiH

DSzumaher said:


> I guess that they are parts of the A8, A60, A62, A64, A94*(?), A98 and A281.


Exactly!



> *My* corrections:


Thanks . I have to check...



> Why not added to the A39?


Well, I calculated it in June 2010 when the A250 was still the A250 . I've only updated the old calculation yesterday.



> *my* calculations


How have you calculated it?


----------



## Heico-M

^^ Nit-Picking (Erbsen zählen).


----------



## DSzumaher

MichiH said:


> How have you calculated it?


The total length like you, but more perceptively. 
Lanes percentage just as total length, but with color recognition. 
At the end, lanes length/total length.


----------



## MichiH

Source: FAZ

The left column "Straßennetz" shows the motorway length per square kilometer.
The 2nd column "Eisenbahnnetz" shows the railwey network length per square kilometer.
The right column "Investitionen in Straßenbau" shows the road infrastructure investment per inhabitant.

I am very surprised that the Netherlands investment per inhabitant is lower than the Germany's!? :?

The FAZ Europe comprises only Western Europe hno:.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> I am very surprised that the Netherlands investment per inhabitant is lower than the Germany's!? :?


When I compared the two countries a little while ago, I came at € 72 per inhabitant in Germany and € 163 per inhabitant in the Netherlands. 

This comparison was made by comparing the 2013 budget of the _Bundesfernstraßen_ and _Rijkswegen_ to population. 

When comparing road length, the difference is bigger, € 111,500 per kilometer Bundesfernstraße in Germany and € 533,000 per kilometer rijksweg in the Netherlands. But the German _Bundesfernstraßennetz_ is relatively large compared to the _rijkswegennet_ in the Netherlands.

German road projects are generally cheaper than the Netherlands, expressed as a "per kilometer" price in construction cost (including acquiring land). The Netherlands has a number of outrageously expensive projects (similar to A100 in Berlin). Also, Dutch road works are much faster than in Germany, which leads to a higher construction cost. But then again, traffic congestion due to road works is very minimal (6% of all congestion on average).


----------



## MichiH

*News*

The plan approval procedure for the German part of the *Fehmarnbelt tunnel *was started, see press release. The ministry estimates a duration b/n 18 and 24 month.


The plan approval procedure for the *B8 Bad Camberg bypass* (6.7km; 36 million €; OSM; layout plan) was started in 2005. The documents were modified in 2007/08 thus the plan approval procedure was practically restarted. Now the documents have been modified and outlayed again, see press release.

I don't know why I have add the B8 info directly after... 




Attus said:


> A7, bridge over the Nord-Ostsee-Kanal (Kiel Canal), near Rendsburg.
> I knew this bridge was closed for trucks but I was in Denmark this Sunday so I have personal experiences now.
> The bridge is in a very bad state so the authorities made three restrictions:
> - Vehicles over 7.5t are not allowed to use the bridge
> - Max. speed is 60 km/h, constant speed checks are installed
> - Only one lane per direction may be used, the outside lane of the bridge is closed in both sides.


The maintenance works at the *A7 bridge over the Kiel Canal* (German name "Nord-Ostsee-Kanal") will be completed in late November 2013, see press release. Costs: 2.7 million €. An expertise is planned to get the life expectancy of the bridge.



MichiH said:


> I have no up-to-date info, but it was announced that the *A23 b/n AS Itzehoe-North – AS Itzehoe-Center* (OSM; 1.7km).


The traffic is now using both A23 carriageways b/n AS Itzehoe-North – AS Itzehoe-Center, see press release. There is currently only one lane per direction in service.



MichiH said:


> The groundbreaking ceremony for the 3rd section will be on 5th September 2013. 4.1km. About 100 million €. Completion 2020. The preliminary works ("Vorschüttungen") are funded by Infrastrukturbeschleunigungsprogramm II (infrastructure speed-up program II).


The works should been started about one month after the groundbreaking ceremony - on 7th October. But the contract was not signed before groundbreaking. The authority decided not to accept the cheapest offer but the best offer. Thus the bidder of the cheapest offer took action. The court decision is estimated within the next four weeks therefore the works should probably been started in November 2013.


Last but not least a completion: The *B404 b/n Trittau-North and Trittau/Grande* (3.5km; 8 million €; OSM) was reopened for traffic on Friday after the section was upgraded to 3 lanes, see press release. The traffic was using the through-road of _Trittau_ within the last 3.5 month. The first B404 section b/n A1 and A24 was already upgraded in 2009. The missing two section upgrades will be started in 2015 and 2017. Thus 15 of 19km will feature 3 lanes. Predicted AADT 2025: 20,000 vehicles/day, thereof 12% heavy traffic. The current B404 is planned to be the first carriageway of the future A21.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> The plan approval procedure for the German part of the *Fehmarnbelt tunnel *was started, see press release. The ministry estimates a duration b/n 18 and 24 month.


Do you think this is realistic? If you read the German media, you read about delays with procedures and _klage_ all the time. Hopefully Femern presented a solid EIA that will stand up in court. On the other hand, the German side will impact close to nobody, there are no buildings in the way (per 2010 Google Earth imagery). But I can see BUND making appeals against the dredging of the seabed.


----------



## Aphelion

^^ Despite there being no direct impact, environmental arguments and fears of Fehmarn becoming a transit island (= less tourism and work opportunities) will probably be expressed.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Do you think this is realistic?


No! It is common that the authority announces a duration of 1-2 years for the procedure. I can only remember a few road upgrades w/o a delay of the plan approval procedure.



ChrisZwolle said:


> If you read the German media, you read about delays with procedures and _klage_ all the time. Hopefully Femern presented a solid EIA that will stand up in court. On the other hand, the German side will impact close to nobody, there are no buildings in the way (per 2010 Google Earth imagery). But I can see BUND making appeals against the dredging of the seabed.


Actions ("Klagen") are most likely! There were already a lot of discussions within the last couple of years.


----------



## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> Last but not least a completion: The *B404 b/n Trittau-North and Trittau/Grande* (3.5km; 8 million €; OSM) was reopened for traffic on Friday after the section was upgraded to 3 lanes, see press release. The traffic was using the through-road of _Trittau_ within the last 3.5 month. The first B404 section b/n A1 and A24 was already upgraded in 2009. The missing two section upgrades will be started in 2015 and 2017. Thus 15 of 19km will feature 3 lanes. Predicted AADT 2025: 20,000 vehicles/day, thereof 12% heavy traffic. The current B404 is planned to be the first carriageway of the future A21.


Is it true? Are there realistic plannings to upgrade this sections to a motorway (which would only be realistic) or is it just on the wish list?


----------



## Road_UK

Wolfgang16 said:


> I am aware of that and theoretically you are right, but user profiles for foreigners and locals are different. A foreigner often uses the motorway network for one day only, but in none of the vignette systems you can buy a day vignette for 365th of the price of a year vignette.
> 
> BTW: at Iranian toll stations I came through for free whenever I said that I am German. :nuts:


Yeah right.


----------



## Stahlsturm

SturmBeobachter said:


> I'm sorry but what you did say is a lie.


Und wo habe ich gesagt, daß das meine persönliche Meinung wäre ?
And where did I say that that's my personal opinion ?


----------



## Stahlsturm

ChrisZwolle said:


> Tolls are not necessary from an economic point of view. Fuel taxes raise more than enough money to maintain and expand the road network.


There's plenty of money raised from motorists already, correct. But all levies raised as taxes go to the general pool and then are distributed by the government at will.



ChrisZwolle said:


> However, politicians continue to divert taxes on motoring to other destinations than roads. This will happen with the tolls as well.


Tolls are earmarked and do not go in the general pool, they will be used exclusively for roads. Of course, what will happen is that the amount of funds from the general pool will shrink to compensate for the earmarked toll money and in the end nothing will be done. 

It's all a big smokescreen and people are dumb enough to fall for it.



ChrisZwolle said:


> There is no easier cash cow than motorists.


Amen.


----------



## MichiH

Wilhem275 said:


> given the low number of cars from abroad, the whole thing may also backfire, with higher overall costs for the German taxpayer :|


Exactly! A car toll w/o increasing dues for locals is total bullshit. The costs for the foreign cars are too high. That's kindergarten! In addition a lot of locals will avoid Autobahns and rather clogging through-roads.

Oh Herr, schmeiß Hirn ra! (Lord let them brains rain from above!)


----------



## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> Exactly! A car toll w/o increasing dues for locals is total bullshit. The costs for the foreign cars are too high. That's kindergarten! In addition a lot of locals will avoid Autobahns and rather clogging through-roads.
> 
> Oh Herr, schmeiß Hirn ra! (Lord let them brains rain from above!)


Seehofer will drop the road toll when the others drop something else. It's politics. hno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Foreigners buy vignettes for only a return trip or a few incidental trips in Germany, while the average German driver will use the system throughout the year. It's very likely that foreigners will pay a much larger share of toll revenue than the 5% of the vehicle kilometers they are responsible for. For example, short-term vignettes in Slovakia are good for 35% of vignette revenue while drivers who use them are likely responsible for far less than 35% of passenger car traffic mileage in Slovakia.


----------



## MichiH

^^ The coalition negotiation is only a cockfight. The car toll project was already a part of the last coalition contract .


----------



## Attus

Heico-M said:


> Seehofer will drop the road toll when the others drop something else. It's politics. hno:


The agreement has been done. However, toll was the most imoortant thig for CSU.


----------



## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> It's very likely that foreigners will pay a much larger share of toll revenue than the 5% of the vehicle kilometers they are responsible for.


Yep, but will this compensate for the general costs of implementing a vignette system on the whole German territory?
Countries using vignettes are rather small, compared to Germany.
The annoyance of having to buy a vignette every year * all the German users should generate enough general discontent to let the people move against this decision...

It would be interesting if they'd apply a pay-per-use control based on the system already implemented for truck traffic; the infrastructure is already there.



Wolfgang16 said:


> I am aware of that and theoretically you are right, but user profiles for foreigners and locals are different. A foreigner often uses the motorway network for one day only, but in none of the vignette systems you can buy a day vignette for 365th of the price of a year vignette.


This may be true for countries using a vignette system. In those which are based on toll gates, every user pays the same and per-use, no matter what.

Where I live, a German citizen will not pay more than what I pay; actually, I pay a bit more, to use the Telepass service (but that's optional).
That's why I feel discriminated and I think this whole crap is just an act of bullying. Dedicing that foreigners should pay more for something, and pretending to get away with it, is a disturbing expression of self-righteousness, and that's dangerous in foreign politics.


----------



## Stahlsturm

ChrisZwolle said:


> Foreigners buy vignettes for only a return trip or a few incidental trips in Germany, while the average German driver will use the system throughout the year. It's very likely that foreigners will pay a much larger share of toll revenue than the 5% of the vehicle kilometers they are responsible for. For example, short-term vignettes in Slovakia are good for 35% of vignette revenue while drivers who use them are likely responsible for far less than 35% of passenger car traffic mileage in Slovakia.


And Germans, who face just that pretty much wherever they go are sick of being milked and want to join the club. As I said before, this has nothing to do with reason or finances, it's simple lust for revenge.


----------



## Stahlsturm

Heico-M said:


> Seehofer will drop the road toll when the others drop something else. It's politics. hno:


That is quite possible. And then he'll turn to his constituents claiming "I fought hard for you but the Berlin Mafia was stronger" and all will be forgiven. *sighs*


----------



## Stahlsturm

Wilhem275 said:


> Yep, but will this compensate for the general costs of implementing a vignette system on the whole German territory?
> Countries using vignettes are rather small, compared to Germany.
> The annoyance of having to buy a vignette every year * all the German users should generate enough general discontent to let the people move against this decision...
> 
> It would be interesting if they'd apply a pay-per-use control based on the system already implemented for truck traffic; the infrastructure is already there.


I think the federal printers are up to the task. The system they are discussing now is that every car registered in Germany (that German vehicle tax is being paid for) get's a yearly vignette issued automatically every year. So the only issue Germans would have is to put the thing in their wind shield.

The very idea of a pay-per-use system is political suicide in Germany. Germans are extremely sensitive to governmental spying on them which would be possible through this system. Which, of course is illogical since we all have social media profiles and cellphones and use bank and credit cards. Like the government would need another tool...


----------



## cinxxx

^^I have a colleague at work that doesn't pay with credit card at all. He is obsessed with being spied, has no Facebook, no smartphone, not even a cellphone.


----------



## Wilhem275

Probably we should discuss this in an OT section, but gosh, the privacy hysteria really got out of control. In my recent trips I was really concerned, just carrying my reflex with me made people crazy, I was asked to erase images that didn't even include people :nuts:

"Bitte abbrechen, bitte abbrechen!" What? Man, I'm filming the trains, why the hell should someone care about you! :lol:


I might understand bad memories of StaSi in former DDR, but I really can't explain the origins of this collective hallucination through the nation...

May God have mercy on Obama now :storm: :lol:


----------



## cinxxx

^^I repost it here again 



cinxxx said:


> Took a picture upon returning home


----------



## Stahlsturm

Wilhem275 said:


> I might understand bad memories of StaSi in former DDR, but I really can't explain the origins of this collective hallucination through the nation...


I think the reason for this is a completely different one. It's the fear of loss of control. Germans as a people (and I am one so I can speak on the subject...  ) are a nation of obsessive compulsive control freaks. As long as they have at least the illusion of being in control they are fine. That is why they all post on Facebook with their smartphones and don't worry about anything. They have the illusion of being in control because of their individual account settings. The second someone else takes a pic or a piece of info Germans get very nervous because they cannot control what that someone might do with it. That's when they start remembering Stasi and Gestapo times all of a sudden. Obviously nothing of this is rational.


----------



## Stahlsturm

cinxxx said:


> ^^I have a colleague at work that doesn't pay with credit card at all. He is obsessed with being spied, has no Facebook, no smartphone, not even a cellphone.


Well, at least he's consequent  He should probably up his dose of Haloperidol.


----------



## SturmBeobachter

Stahlsturm said:


> Und wo habe ich gesagt, daß das meine persönliche Meinung wäre ?
> And where did I say that that's my personal opinion ?


You did not make any quotes, so it means that it is Your opinion. Sorry, but introducing tolls is not a good idea.


----------



## Road_UK

Ah huh. There are no speedlimits on a lot of stretches of motorways in Germany. I'm not going to quote it, so it's my opinion.


----------



## Stahlsturm

SturmBeobachter said:


> You did not make any quotes, so it means that it is Your opinion. Sorry, but introducing tolls is not a good idea.


You do realize that I completely agree that tolls are unnecessary and will lead nowhere, right ? And you should also realize that your argument about quotes is completely absurd as Road_UK so fittingly pointed out.


----------



## Road_UK

Perhaps they're pissed off because of that Großes Deutsche Eck corridor between Tirol and Salzburg.


----------



## Wolfgang16

No, pissed off because toll around Kufstein and Pfändertunnel (Bregenz).


----------



## Road_UK

So? Tolls in France are dearer.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I guess more Germans are using Austrian Autobahns than French or Swiss motorways - especially Bavarians .


----------



## Road_UK

I think they use Swiss motorways just as much but I don't know.


----------



## Wilhem275

I guess that too, because this whole toll thing seems suited to "fight" vignette systems, not tolls in general.


----------



## Wolfgang16

If you go south from Bavaria you must go through Austria, but usually its only about 10km on their motorway network. For this you have buy an 8.50€ vignette. Other countries are more generous, you can drive to the second exit after the border or around cities for free.


----------



## flierfy

Wolfgang16 said:


> If you go south from Bavaria you must go through Austria, but usually its only about 10km on their motorway network. For this you have buy an 8.50€ vignette.


You don't necessarily have to use their motorway though.


----------



## Road_UK

Why do they want to use 10 km of their motorway network?


----------



## Wolfgang16

The alternative is a passage through cities: Kufstein, Innsbruck or Bregenz. The road in Bregenz is often clogged. Of course you can do that for free, but its annoying, even more if you have an accident there.


----------



## MichiH

Wolfgang16 said:


> *usually* its only about 10km on their motorway network.


I don't think so!


----------



## Wolfgang16

Main route is Brenner. That means Munich - Garmisch - Zirl - Innsbruck - Brenner. From Zirl to Brenner Motorway its 11km on the A12. Brenner Motorway is not included in the vignette system and costs extra toll.

Another North-South transit route is Kufstein - Felbertauern. From border to Kufstein-Süd its 6km. Again Felbertauern costs extra toll.

Pfändertunnel is about 10km, after the tunnel you can switch to the Swiss motorway, which you need anyway if you are going South to Italy.

A fourth route would be Garmisch - Fernpass - Landeck - Reschen, which is not so popular. Here its 12km motorway and the tunnel around Landeck which is not a motorway, but is included in the vignette system.


----------



## MichiH

Wolfgang16 said:


> Main route is Brenner.


Yes, you are right!



Wolfgang16 said:


> That means Munich - Garmisch - Zirl - Innsbruck - Brenner.


No. Munich - Kufstein - Innsbruck - Brenner!


----------



## Road_UK

Main route through Swiss is St Gotthard. It's (still) vignette free travel between border and Kufstein Süd.


----------



## Heico-M

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> There are Germans who own a car and who don´t use our mighty autobahns?! :crazy: :uh:


Yes, Germans can take lots of pain if they can save money.


----------



## snowdog

Stahlsturm said:


> A lot of Germans are pissed off that they have to pay almost everywhere and when they go to work the Autobahn is clogged up with foreign cars. Politicians listen to such things and CSU man Horst Seehofer most of all.
> 
> I doubt many Germans think past a simple wish for revenge in this matter.


Might as well toll the roads to the Dutch coast then, a significant part of traffic in Zeeland in the summer months are Germans.
/idiot mode: they are in my way, they should pay for using the road like I pay road tax

Tolls are stupid imo, any person should oppose tolls unless the money goes directly to the road budget. Everyone already pays more than enough in fuel duty and VAT...


In general, European motorists bend over way too easily, they are milked to the brim compared to people who don't drive, way in excess of actual costs to build and maintain the infrastructure.


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> No. Munich - Kufstein - Innsbruck - Brenner!


Thats a detour and not faster.


----------



## MichiH

Wolfgang16 said:


> Thats a detour and not faster.


According to Google Maps:
Ingolstadt - Munich - Kufstein - Innsbruck - Bolzano: 362km, 3:30h
Ingolstadt - Munich - Garmisch - Innsbruck - Bolzano: 343km, 3:52h

It is faster!


----------



## Wilhem275

EDIT: I misread and misanswered.

Yes, of course via Kufstein is the faster and usual way for the Brenner route.


----------



## Road_UK

If you're coming from the Stuttgart side, then Ulm - Reutte - Innsbruck might be a bit faster. Depends a bit on the volume of traffic crossing the Fernpass, but A8 Stuttgart - Munich is a pig of a road...


----------



## earthJoker

Road_UK said:


> Main route through Swiss is St Gotthard.


Not if you travel from Bavaria, then it's the A13 for sure.


----------



## Road_UK

Yes but Europe is a little bit bigger than just Bavaria.


----------



## thun

Attus said:


> Actually I pay less than 120 euro as road tax so my costs would increase with such a system although I am a German tax payer.


Simple solution: Adopt the Austrian pricing model, where a sticker for one year is a lot cheaper compared to one for a few days or a month.
Yet it's very probably impossible to find a system that would indeed be cost neutral to all German car drivers and does yield enough additional revenues to finance the enforcement of the toll, not to mention the claimed objective to rise additional income for road maintenance.



MichiH said:


> That is only the opinion of the European Commissioner for Transport Mr. Kallas. A press officer contradicted today there is no agreement for the German toll plan.


The Commission didn't give a green light. However, the proposed model would obviously comply with European Law as no foreigner gets discriminated.
German media did make a mountain out of a molehill there as this isn't sensational news to anyone who has a little understanding of European Law.




Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> I have a solution for this, too! The German state would pay people like you the difference back. :yes:


And this very probably would be a discrimination of EU foreigners as the state would pay hidden subsidies to its citizens.


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> According to Google Maps:
> Ingolstadt - Munich - Kufstein - Innsbruck - Bolzano: 362km, 3:30h
> Ingolstadt - Munich - Garmisch - Innsbruck - Bolzano: 343km, 3:52h
> 
> It is faster!


I doubt that Google knows the real situation on both routes and the Garmisch option will even improve in future when the tunnels are built. But I don't want to convince you. This discussion is now far away from the starting point.


----------



## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


> - The official opening ceremony of the *AD Barnim* reconstruction (A10/A11, including 4.2km A10 2x3 widening) will be happen on 11th November 2013.


Where and what time?


----------



## MichiH

pmaciej7 said:


> Where and what time?


I've no information yet. I guess a press release will be published here on Thursday or Friday. In additon all public events of the state secretaries from the Federal Ministry of Transportation are published here (I guess the announcement for the AD Barnim opening will be available on Friday or Saturday).


----------



## MichiH

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> In my opinion our European friends should have two options:
> 
> A vignette paid for one year: 120,00 €uro
> A vignette paid for one month: 10,00 €uro


The Federal Ministry of Transport is talking about 100 € per year. The system shall be similar to the Austrian vignette system. If the current tax on car is lower than 100 € the vignette costs could be lowered by a ecological allowance ("Öko-Rabatt"). There should also be a cheaper vignette with a validation for a couple of days.

But the SPD is still against a car toll at all!


----------



## Road_UK

Question... 

I need to get some Umwelt discs at the TÜV in Munich this week for our vehicles. If I just show them the vehicle papers, will that be enough, and how much will it cost? I think we fall into he green category.


----------



## Wolfgang16

That should be enough. Costs 5€ for the Umweltplakette. 

In the papers its important whats written under V.9 14 or 14.1


----------



## Road_UK

I have no idea. They're all Austrian registrations... But thanks!


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> I have no idea. They're all Austrian registrations... But thanks!


All EU registration papers have those fields.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Bad Segeberg*

The _Bundesverwaltungsgericht_ in Leipzig has annulled the plan approval of the A20 around Bad Segeberg. The current plan cannot proceed.

Mitigation of impact of the Autobahn on a bat populace is not sufficient and they failed to examine possible alternatives further south.


----------



## MichiH

*A10 AD Barnim*



MichiH said:


> I've no information yet. I guess a press release will be published here on Thursday or Friday.


The opening ceremony will be on 11th November at 2PM.
Location: use the B2 bridge over A10 towards A11 Prenzlau; it is only possible to reach the location via B2 from Berlin; signposted towards A11 Prenzlau

http://www.mil.brandenburg.de/cms/detail.php/bb1.c.346257.de


----------



## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> The opening ceremony will be on 11th November at 2PM.
> Location: use the B2 bridge over A10 towards A11 Prenzlau; it is only possible to reach the location via B2 from Berlin; signposted towards A11 Prenzlau
> 
> http://www.mil.brandenburg.de/cms/detail.php/bb1.c.346257.de


Will you attend to take some pics ?


----------



## Road_UK

Pics of some ceremony? I'm sure they've got some media crews to do that...


----------



## Pepov

I have a question about B297. Are there any plans to bulid a bypass of Goppingen?


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> Will you attend to take some pics ?


Maybe *pmaciej7*? http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=108503937&postcount=5725


----------



## MichiH

Pepov said:


> I have a question about B297. Are there any plans to bulid a bypass of Goppingen?


No. A 18km new B465 b/n Schordorf and Göppingen was further demand within the BVWP 2003 (46 million €) but the project is not included in the state's proposal list for the new BVWP 2015.


----------



## MichiH

*A5 Baden-Baden - Offenburg*



MichiH said:


> Des said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another update: On the A5 between Basel and Karlsruhe the last 50 km before Karlsruhe are nearly finished as 2x3 (was 2x2). Hopefully the extra lanes open to traffic soon!
> 
> 
> 
> The traffic is already running in 7 of 9 sections on its own carriageways, but there are only 2 lanes available. The traffic in the last two A5 sections (no. 4 and no. 8) is still running on one carriageway ("4+0"). I guess the section will be opened 2x3 all at once in January or February 2014.
Click to expand...

The sections 5, 6 and 7 will be opened 2x3 next week. Section 1-4 will be opened 2x3 until early 2014. A short part of section 8 will be relocated on both carriagesway (2x2) in mid November 2013.

The PPP contract deadline for completion is December 2014. The construction costs are about 350 million €. The truck toll revenues are loan to the company "Via Solutions Südwest". But the toll revenues are lower than calculated in 2008 due to the parallel toll free French A35 (that's not my opinion but the official statement of the company) and the financial crisis.

The missing money will be saved by postponing the completion of section 8. There are some expensive works open like pavement, noise protection, safety fences and signposting. The completion will be in September 2014 and section 8 and 9 will be opened 2x3 (both sections are 5.5km long i.e. 11.0km in total). This will be still 3 month prior deadline. The company is emphasizing that they don't have financial problems. They are not illiquidity.

Sources: 1, 2 and 3.


----------



## MichiH

*A7 Rader Hochbrücke*



Heico-M said:


> A7: Flensburg - Hamburg
> 
> The Rader Hochbrücke which crosses the Kiel canal has been closed for all truck traffic as of today. The bridge needs to be repaired which will take four months.
> 
> The most important bypass - through the Rendsburg canal tunnel on the B77 - has been under renovation for years and will be so for several more years. Currently there is only one lane for each direction. Thousands of trucks will have to pass this bottleneck. This will create chaos.
> 
> http://www.shz.de/nachrichten/top-thema/artikel/ganz-schleswig-holstein-hat-jetzt-ein-problem.html
> 
> Political parties are contemplating the lack of renovation over the past years. The Green party in Schleswig-Holstein (part of the state government) claims that renovation should be priorotized over new construction - and is demanding to stop the widening of the A7 between Bordesholm and Hamburg! :bash:


The Rader Hochbrücke was reopened 2x2 on Friday after completion of reconstruction, see press release. Trucks are allowed to use the bridge again. The hard shoulders are still closed for static reasons. The construction costs are 2.7 million €. The contracts were assigned w/o bidding procedure. An expertise about the remaining useful life of the bridge will be available in mid 2014.


----------



## MichiH

*A20 north of Hamburg*



ChrisZwolle said:


> The _Bundesverwaltungsgericht_ in Leipzig has annulled the plan approval of the A20 around Bad Segeberg. The current plan cannot proceed.
> 
> Mitigation of impact of the Autobahn on a bat populace is not sufficient and they failed to examine possible alternatives further south.


Correct. See BVerwG press release. Two complaints were allowed, five complaints were rejected, one complaint was already cancelled by the complainer.

The Schleswig-Holstein Ministry of Transport also published a press release. The additional plan approval procedure will take at least 2 years.

The states coalition contract planned to build A20 section 3 (near _Bad Segeberg_, which was mentioned above) and section 4 (plan approval order is announced to be passed in late 2013) until 2017. Section 4 ends at the A7 nearby _Bad Bramstedt_. The funding for section 3 (150 million €) is still available and could be relocated.

More information: A20 overview in German forum, A20 project page Schleswig-Holstein, A20 project page Lower Saxony.


----------



## MichiH

*A20 north of Hamburg*

The six missing A20 sections in Schleswig-Holstein have still no valid plan approval orders.

I want to show you a little overview of the announcements of the last 1 1/2 years:

Minister Jost de Jager (CDU) announced by an official press release on 30th April 2012 that *all plan approval orders will be passed until end of 2012*. The motive was that the order for section 3 was passed.

The election for the new Landtag was on 6th May 2012. SPD, Greens and SSW won and constituted the new government.

The press officer of the new Minster Meyer (SPD) said on 20th June 2012: The plan approval order for section 7 will be passed until end of 2012 in best case. The orders for section 4, 5 and 6 will probably be passed *until* *early 2013 or mid of 2013*.

I checked the official A20 Schleswig-Holstein project page (October 2012 version / October 2013 version):

Section 4 (procedure beginning: July 2009): 3rd quarter 2013 / end of 2013
Section 5 (procedure beginning: October 2010): 3rd quarter 2014 / end of 2014
Section 6 (procedure beginning: May 2008): 3rd quarter 2014 / end of 2014
Section 7 (procedure beginning: December 2007): 3rd quarter 2014 / end of 2014
Section 8 (procedure beginning: May 2009): 3rd quarter 2013 / 1st quarter 2014 (Elbtunnel section)


----------



## MichiH

*A20 north of Hamburg*

Section 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 have a total length of 69.3km. The total costs are 663 million €. 9.6 million € per kilometer. Schleswig-Holstein is plain land.

Section 8 which contains a 5,671m tunnel under the river Elbe has a length of 12.3km and costs about 1.1 billion €. About 90 million € per kilometer.

The plan approval orders are still not passed (modifications still possible e.g. caused by complaints) and costs are usually increasing - especially due to postponing construction start (inflation). I think the final costs of sections 3 to 7 will be at least 20% higher than announced.


----------



## Aphelion

^^ Could section 4 be affected by the cancelled plan approval of section 3 in regards to alignment etc?


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't think so.

btw: Here the map showing the announcements for the plan approval orders (October 2013 version):

 (click to enlarge the map)


----------



## MichiH

*Lately openings*



MichiH said:


> - The *B27 Hofgeismar bypass* (OSM; 3.2km; u/c since September 2009) will be opened on 8th November 2013.


The B27 _Hofgeismar_ bypass was opened, see press release (2). Total costs: 19.6 million € (1 million € less(!!) than calculated). AADT on through road: 15,600 vehicles/day. The bypass should reduce it by 60%. 



MichiH said:


> - The *B189 Kuhbier bypass* (OSM; 3.6km; u/c since January 2013; 15.3 million €) will be opened on 4th November 2013.


The B189 _Kuhbier_ bypass was opened, see press release. It could be opened 6 weeks earlier than planned.



MichiH said:


> The 1.4km long *Loyerberg bypass* east of _Oldenburg_ is currently u/c. The plan approval procedure began in July 2009, the order was passed in August 2010. Groundbreaking was in November 2012, completion is estimated in late 2014. Costs: 4.5 million €. Project page; OSM.


The B211 _Loyerberg_ bypass was officially opened on 8th November, see press release. AADT on through road: 13,000 vehicles per day. The bypass was already in service since 5th October 2013.

The *B38 Reinheim bypass* was opened on 5th November, see press release (2). The 2-laned road has a length of 4.7km (OSM). The plan approval order was passed in December 2007. The construction was started in May 2009. Total costs: 19.5 million €. AADT on through road b/n 19,000 and 21,000 vehicles per day. The bypass of _Spachbrücken_ (a district of _Reinheim_) was already in service since 2nd August 2013.

A B38 bypass of the southern village _Groß-Bieberau_ is contained in the BVWP 2003 (further demand) and in the Hesse proposal list for the BVWP 2015. A B426 (southern?) bypass of _Reinheim_ is also in the Hesse proposal list for the BVWP 2015.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*

- 11th November: *A10 AD Barnim* (see above)

- 21th November: *B1 Aerzen bypass* (4.3km; partial 2+1; 14.8 million €; plan approval procedure: August 2006 to December 2007; u/c since May 2009; OSM)

- 25th November: *B29 Schwäbisch Gmünd bypass*



MichiH said:


> The B29 _Schwäbisch Gmünd_ bypass (OSM) will be opened in late November 2013. This last 2.6km long section was started in August 2006 (plan approval order was passed in March 1997) and contains a 2.230km long tunnel.


- End of November: *A94 Malching bypass*



MichiH said:


> The 2nd carriageway of the A94 _Malching_ bypass is also announced to be opened in late 2013 (OSM; 5.8km).


- 2nd December: *B15n AS Neufahrn to AS Ergoldsbach* (4-laned)



MichiH said:


> the 3rd section from AS _Neufahrn_ to AS _Ergoldsbach_ is currently u/c (7.2km; August 2009 to late 2013; OSM).


----------



## MichiH

*B47 Worms / Bürstadt*



MichiH said:


> The 2nd opening within the last weeks was the completion of *B47 Rhine viaduct near Worms* (OSM). It is the only Rhine viaduct b/n _Mainz_ and _Mannheim_ (about 50km). The old 745m long viaduct was opened in 1953 (the forehore brigdes were built in 1900). The AADT is over 23,000 vehicles per day thus a 2nd viaduct were built until 2008. Afterwards the old viaduct was renovated and now opened for traffic. 4 lanes are in service since 12th September 2013. The renovation costed 13.6 million €. See press release.
> 
> Further improvements of the B47 b/n A61 and A67 are also planned (since decades).


The *B47n southern Worms bypass* (2.3km; 2x2; 22 million €; construction time: 3 years; OSM; project page) has a valid plan approval order!The first plan approval procedure was started in 1977. The current procedure was started in late 2007 and the order was passed in January 2011. It was challenged but the complaint was lately dismissed. The construction cannot be started b/c funding is not yet available.

It is also planned to upgrade the existing *western B47n extension to the A61 interchange AS Worms* (1.0km; 2x2; plan approval order: July 1973; OSM).

There are also 3 planned projects on Hesse side (project page). After completion the B47 would be a 2x2 grade-separated connection b/n A61 and A67/A5.

The *B47 Rosengarten bypass* has a length of 3.6km (OSM). The plan approval procedure was started in December 2009.
The upgrade of the *B47 Bürstadt bypass* has a length of 4.6km (OSM). The plan approval order was passed in December 1971 (but only the first carriageway was built).
The upgrade *b/n Bürstadt and Lorsch* has a length of 3.0km (OSM). The plan approval procedure was started in December 2010.

AADT 2010 (source):
B47n AS Worms (A 61) – AS Worms-Horchheim (K 17) *11600* / 673 (5.8%)
_Connection b/n B47n and B47 is K 17/K 18_ (no AADT 2010 data available)
B47 Worms-Hochheimer Straße (K 18) – Worms-Neusatz (K 17) *11600* / 220 (1.9%)
B47 Worms-Neusatz (K 17) – Worms-Klosterstraße (L 395) *6800* / 82 (1.2%)
B47 Worms-Klosterstraße (L 395) – Worms-Ludwigstraße (L 523) *7400* / 185 (2.5%)
B47 Worms-Ludwigstraße (L 523) – Worms-Torturmplatz *10800* / 205 (1.9%)
B47 Worms-Torturmplatz – AS Worms-Rheinbrücke (B 9) *13700* / 425 (3.1%)
B47 AS Worms-Rheinbrücke (B 9) – LG (RP/HE) *21800* / 2180 (10%)
B47 LG (RP/HE) – Lampertheim-Rosengarten (L 3261) *22700* / 2088 (9.2%)
B47 Lampertheim-Rosengarten (L 3261) – Lampertheim-Rosengarten (L 3110) *17400* / 2384 (13.7%)
B47 Lampertheim-Rosengarten (L 3110) – AS Bürstadt-West (B 44) *13200* / 1676 (12.7%)
B47 AS Bürstadt-West (B 44) – AS Bürstadt-Riedrode (K 62) *16900* / 1707 (10.1%)
B47 AS Bürstadt-Riedrode (K 62) – AS Lorsch-West (K 31) *21800* / 2006 (9.2%)
B47 AS Lorsch-West (K 31) – AS Lorsch (A 67) *21300* / 2258 (10.6%)
B47 AS Lorsch (A 67) – AS Lorsch/Einhausen (B 460 / L 3111) *18800* / 1786 (9.5%)
B47 AS Lorsch/Einhausen (B 460 / L 3111) – AS Lorsch/Bensheim (K 31) *21200* / 1124 (5.3%)
B47 AS Lorsch/Bensheim (K 31) – AS Bensheim (A 5) *20200* / 1172 (5.8%)


----------



## pmaciej7

*Dreieck Barnim (A10/A11/B2) opening ceremony*









source: http://www.pankower-allgemeine-zeitung.de/2013/11/11/autobahndreieck-barnim/


----------



## Blackraven

Oooh, are all these drivers queuing and lining up while waiting to try the new road?


----------



## Suburbanist

Did Germans changed the way they signal foreign cities?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nordrhein-Westfalen is phasing out exonyms. Arnheim is being replaced by Arnhem and Nimwegen is replaced by Nijmegen. Likewise, the Netherlands uses Köln on the signs, not Keulen (and Aachen instead of Aken).


----------



## pmaciej7

Blackraven said:


> Oooh, are all these drivers queuing and lining up while waiting to try the new road?


I don't think drivers had that much patience:


----------



## Groningen NL

Typical Audi driver


----------



## richard fischer

Groningen NL said:


> Typical Audi driver


*Typical German driver.*


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Grabow*



MichiH said:


> Some new pics. They are linked on a map. You can select the location and view to get the pics. There are also older pics for comparing the progress of the ongoing works.
> 
> - A14 b/n AK _Schwerin _and AS _Grabow _(OSM): http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Bildergalerie/A14NeubauLudwigslust/A14LudwigslustNeubau.htm.


^^ New pics taken last summer are red marked on the map.







 © Patrick Scholl







 © Patrick Scholl

Aerial pics: > click <.







 © Bruno Becker



> More pics: http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Bildergalerie.htm.


----------



## MichiH

Aphelion said:


> ^^ Could section 4 be affected by the cancelled plan approval of section 3 in regards to alignment etc?


Yes, see map:

 source: shz.de

Red: current route.

The Federal Administrative Court has instructed to examine the southern variants. Both would affect section 4 which begins at the B206 west of _Wittenborn_. Both are worse for the main relation _Kiel_-_Lübeck _(north to east) and are less effective to traffic.

The Schleswig-Holstein Prime Minister Albig said that the northern variant will also be examined. This route would cost at minimum 32 million € more than the current route (150 million €) also if the _Bad Segeberg_ tunnel would have a length of only 200 meter.


----------



## MichiH

*A94 Munich - Passau*



Pascal20a said:


> Does anybody have pics of the A94 in construction?


- Einhausung Wimpasing (in service since December 2012)
- Malching (2nd carriageway to be opened in two weeks)


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

pmaciej7 said:


> source: http://www.pankower-allgemeine-zeitung.de/2013/11/11/autobahndreieck-barnim/
> 
> [...]


^^
Shouldn´t the new Autobahndreieck Barnim be called Autobahnkreuz because it connects now roads from all four sides?

Or is it required that all roads of an Autobahnkreuz must be Autobahns? :?


----------



## DSzumaher

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Or is it required that all roads of an Autobahnkreuz must be Autobahns? :?


On the _Frankfurter Kreuz_ not all roads are A, but it's _Autobahnkreuz_.
Autobahns should be 4-way. 3-way is "*Autobahn*dreieck"

That's why there are such interchanges as _Autobahndreieck Kreuz Oranienburg_ or _Autobahndreieck Kreuz Uckermark_. On the other hand, is _Autobahnkreuz Bad Oeynhausen_, and according to the rule should be _Autobahndreieck_.


----------



## pmaciej7

DSzumaher said:


> Autobahns have to 4-way. 3-way is "Autobahndreieck".
> 
> That's why there are such interchanges as _Autobahndreieck Kreuz Oranienburg_ or _Autobahndreieck Kreuz Uckermark_.


But why some names are shortened to "Kreuz Xxxx", and others to "Dreieck Yyyy"? I understand "Kreuz Oranienburg is justified by expressway on 4-th way.


----------



## MichiH

pmaciej7 said:


> But why some names are shortened to "Kreuz Xxxx", and others to "Dreieck Yyyy"? I understand "Kreuz Oranienburg is justified by expressway on 4-th way.


There is no general rule in Germany and there is also no general rule in Brandenburg (Kreuz Oranienburg / Dreieck Barnim). I guess it is arbitrariness or simply Germany .


----------



## DSzumaher

pmaciej7 said:


> But why some names are shortened to "Kreuz Xxxx", and others to "Dreieck Yyyy"?


Therefore, it so called. A10/A111/B96 is an _Autobahndreieck_ named "Kreuz Oranienburg" and A11/A20/B166 is an _AD_ named "Kreuz Uckermark".
Only I have no idea why A7/A70/B26a, A2/A30/B514, etc. are _Autobahnkreuzen_.
I see that MichiH also doesn't know why.



MichiH said:


> There is no general rule in Germany and there is also no general rule in Brandenburg (Kreuz Oranienburg / *Dreieck Barnim*)


It was to be _Autobahndreieck_ named "Kreuz Barnim", but I see that it has changed.


----------



## MichiH

DSzumaher said:


> I see that MichiH also doesn't know why.


German forum "experts" like _SennaHB_ (http://www.autobahnkreuze-online.de/) and _OJ_ are also suprised about the signposting


----------



## MichiH

*A3 Würzburg*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *WÜ-Heidingsfeld to Mainbrücke Randersacker*: *170 million €* for 5.4km (preliminary works has started; estimated completion: 2018; OSM).
> 
> 
> 
> The addition plan approval order was challenged. The Federal Administrative Court rejected it, but attached a condition to an approval for temporary construction objects. An plan addition procedure started in April 2012, the order was passed last week (see press release).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The plan addition procedure was also challenged, but the Federal Administrative Court has recently rejected it :cheers:. The subject was a bridge over the B19 south of the AS _Würzburg-Heidingsfeld_ which was enlarged by 16m (28m --> 44m) w/o an additional environmental review. The bridge was already completed in the meantime :lol:.
> 
> The project page contains a time schedule:
> September 2012: start of preliminary construction
> Mid 2014: start of Talbrücke Heidingsfeld construction
> Early 2015: start of Katzenberg tunnel construction and begin of all works on the entire section
> Late 2018: Completion
Click to expand...

The calculation of costs (170 million €) was done in 2008. A new calculation made 221 million € now. 21 million are caused by general increase. The further extra costs are caused by higher technical and creative requirements for the Talbrücke Heidingsfeld and the Katzenbergtunnel.

Additionally the completion has moved to late 2019. The March 2013 announcement was late 2018. The September 2012 announcement was late 2017.


----------



## MichiH

*B174 Chemnitz*

The new *B174 b/n Chemnitz city limit and Gornau* (4.7km; 2x2 with hard shoulders; plan approval order: January 2009; ground breaking: December 2010; 30 million €; OSM) will be opened on 19th November 2013.

The next section *b/n Chemnitz city limit and Südring* (1.3km 2x2 with hard shoulders; ground breaking: September 2012; estimated completion: November 2014; 20 million €, paid by city of _Chemnitz_ and Saxony state; OSM) is currently u/c.

AADT 2010 (source):
BG Tschechien, Marienberg/Chomutov (silnice 7) – OD Reitzenhain, Ernst-Thälmann-Straße (S 218) *4700* / 733 (15.6%)
OD Reitzenhain, Ernst-Thälmann-Straße (S 218) – südl. Marienberg, Ri. Großrückerswalde (S 219) *5600* / 762 (13.6%)
südl. Marienberg, Ri. Großrückerswalde (S 219) – nördl. Marienberg, Lauterbacher Straße (B 171 / S 225) *-* / - (-%)
nördl. Marienberg, Lauterbacher Straße (B 171 / S 225) – nördl. Hilmersdorf (B 101) *6800* / 1068 (15.7%)
nördl. Hilmersdorf (B 101) – südl. Hohndorf, Ri. Börnichen/Erzgebirge (S 227) *14300* / 1401 (9.8%)
südl. Hohndorf, Ri. Börnichen/Erzgebirge (S 227) – AS Zschopau, Scharfensteiner Straße (S 228) *11200* / 1187 (10.6%)
AS Zschopau, Scharfensteiner Straße (S 228) – AS nord-westl. Zschopau, Ri. Gornau/Erzgebirge (S 235) *13600* / 1278 (9.4%)
AS nord-westl. Zschopau, Ri. Gornau/Erzgebirge (S 235) – AS Gornau/Erzgebirge-West/Dittersdorf, Ri. Amtsberg (B 180) *16800* / 1445 (8.6%)
AS Gornau/Erzgebirge-West/Dittersdorf, Ri. Amtsberg (B 180) – Altenhain, Ri. Einsiedel (K 6110) *16800* / 1562 (9.3%)
Altenhain, Ri. Einsiedel (K 6110) – Chemnitz, Bahnhofstraße (B 169 / B 173) *18400* / 1601 (8.7%)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove there a couple of years ago. I believe the Zschopau bypass has a speed limit of 130 km/h.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It's possible b/c it is a Yellow Autobahn.


----------



## Suburbanist

Does Germany have plans to increase use of E-fuels (E10, E25 etc)?

Are there any national website that shows prices of fuels on fuel stations along highways?


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> Does Germany have plans to increase use of E-fuels (E10, E25 etc)?


Not anymore.



Suburbanist said:


> Are there any national website that shows prices of fuels on fuel stations along highways?


Yes. Every gas station MUST report its prices since last summer.

http://www.spritpreismonitor.de/
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tanken-kraftstoffe-und-antrieb/kraftstoffpreise/
http://www.clever-tanken.de/
http://www.mehr-tanken.de/
http://benzinpreis.de/
http://www.benzinpreise.net/
http://www.benzinpreis-aktuell.de/


----------



## MichiH

*B56/B399 Düren*

The groundbreaking ceremony for the *B56 eastern Düren bypass* will be on 10th December 2013. The part north of the B264 features 2x2 lanes (OSM), the southern part features 1x2 lanes (OSM). The total length is 6.6km.
The plan approval order was passed in September 2010 but challenged. The complaint was withdrawn on 6th November 2013. Predicted 2020 AADT: 25,000 vehicles per day. Construction costs: 23 million € (2009); 30 million € (2012). 3 million € are funded through the infrastructure speedup program II of the Federal Government.

The plan approval procedure for the *B399 northern Düren bypass* (OSM) is in progress since July 2010. Predicted 2020 AADT: 30,000 vehicles per day. Construction costs: 25 million € (2009).


----------



## MichiH

*B101 Luckenwalde*

The last section of the *B101 Luckenwalde bypass* will be opened on 13th December 2013 (circa 5.5km; OSM). Another part of the southern bypass was already opened in August 2012 (3.3km; OSM). The total costs for both southern sections are 20 million €. The plan approval order was passed in July 2009. The construction was started in September 2010. The B101 features 1x2 lanes with a partial third lane.


----------



## Suburbanist

There are a lot of German mid and small size cities building bypasses. I wish Italy and France were following suit. These bypasses are helpful to everyone: faster through taffic, city streets become less busy especially with trucks...


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> There are a lot of German mid and small size cities building bypasses.


Yes. I've reported about some bypasses in November. Here a list showing their number of inhabitants:

Düren 89,000 inhabitants (B56/B399)
Worms 80,000 inhabitants (B47)
Schwäbisch Gmünd 58,000 inhabitants (B29)
Bad Oeynhausen 48,000 inhabitants (A30)
Luckenwalde 20,000 inhabitants (B101)
Reinheim 16,000 inhabitants (B38)
Hofgeismar 15,000 inhabitants (B27)
Aerzen 10,000 inhabitants (B1)

But Loy (B211), Rosengarten (B47) and Kuhbier (B189) are much smaller .


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> A 1.6km part of the *A30* Bad Oeynhausen bypass is announced to be opened in late 2013. It is the section from *AS Bad Oeynhausen-North to AS Dehme* (OSM).


The completion is postponed b/c a steel company is insolvent. It is planned to open the A30 section in the first half-year 2014.

The city of _Bad Oeynhausen_ has 48,000 inhabitants.

The German Autobahn network extension 2013 is 40.8km.


----------



## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> The completion is postponed b/c a steel company is insolvent. It is planned to open the A30 section in the first half-year 2014.


Oh

That will make traffic to/from Netherlands to A2 still bad. Sometimes there are long traffic jams in BAd Oyfehousen.


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> That will make traffic to/from Netherlands to A2 still bad.


No. The first section b/n _Bad Oeynhausen_-North and _Dehme_ will have no effect to the Netherlands traffic. Look at the map .

The entire bypass will be opened in 2016 (or later).


----------



## MichiH

pmaciej7 said:


> But why some names are shortened to "Kreuz Xxxx", and others to "Dreieck Yyyy"?


More examples (source/source):
- Kreuz Düsseldorf-Süd
- Kreuz Dortmund-Nordwest
- Kreuz Dortmund/Witten
- Kreuz Neuss-Süd
- Kreuz Ratingen-Ost
- Kreuz Wittlich
- Rheingönheimer Kreuz
- Dreieck Darmstadt
- Dreieck Köln-Heumar
- Dreieck Langenfeld
- Dreieck Nahetal
- Langenselbolder Dreieck


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*

More bad A14 news...



MichiH said:


> The 154km long new Autobahn from _Schwerin_ (A24) to _Magdeburg_ (A2) transits the states Mecklenburg-West Pomerania ("McPom"; 25km), Brandenburg (32km) and Saxony-Anhalt (97km). The A14 is partly funded by EU.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The plan-approval procedures for the next sections are in progress:
> - AS _Karstädt_ to AS _Wittenberge_ (17.5km)
> - AS _Wittenberge_ to border Brandenburg/Saxony-Anhalt (2.0km)
> - Border Brandenburg/Saxony-Anhalt to AS _Vielbaum_ (8.8km; 141 million €)
> All orders are announced for 2013.


The plan approval order for the latter section is postponed to 2014. It is announced to be passed maybe in first half-year 2014. It could also have effect to the 2km long Elbe crossing section.



MichiH said:


> It is planned to start the plan-approval procedure for the following 16.8km section from AS _Vielbaum_ to AS _Osterburg_ in the first half of 2013 (111 million €).
> 
> The next plan-approval procedures are already in progress:
> - AS _Osterburg_ to AS _Uenglingen_ (18.2km; 133 million €)
> - AS _Uenglingen_ to AS _Lüderitz_ (12.9km; 146 million €)
> 
> [...]


The plan approval documents for the section _Osterburg_-_Uenglingen _have been modified and are laying out again.


----------



## MichiH

*B174 Chemnitz*



MichiH said:


> The new *B174 b/n Chemnitz city limit and Gornau* (4.7km; 2x2 with hard shoulders; plan approval order: January 2009; ground breaking: December 2010; 30 million €; OSM) will be opened on 19th November 2013.


The B174 section _Chemnitz_-_Gronau_ was opened today. The costs are 35 million € according to the today's press release (2). Thereof 17 million € are subsidized by the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF).


----------



## Stahlsturm

The second stage of the B 15n between Neufarn and Ergoldsbach will apparently open on December 2nd. After that only 9 km remain and there will be a complete Autobahn (-like) connection between Regensburg and Landshut. YAY !!!

I read it today in the print issue of the "Mittelbayrische Zeitung" but can't find any online source.


----------



## MichiH

Stahlsturm said:


> I read it today in the print issue of the "Mittelbayrische Zeitung" but can't find any online source.


http://www.br.de/nachrichten/oberpfalz/b15-neu-eroeffnung-zweiter-dezember-100.html (9th November 2013)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=108709900&postcount=5747 (10th November 2013) 

You should read the SSC thread about German Autobahns .


----------



## Attus

Ushtari said:


> First of all, Germany is the father of Autobahns


And actually the first road being called as "Autobahn" was the current A555 between Cologne/Köln and Bonn. 
Which is strange beacause those days (1932) that road loked like that:








It doesn't like like something we call an Autobahn nowadays. 
NB: The current A115 is older but it was not called as Autobahn but as _Automobil-Verkehrs- und Übungs-Straße _(AVUS). 

Nowadays it is clear: an Autobahn/motorway is a road which is signed by this way:








Perhaps our North American friends can't find the proper word just because their controlled access highways are not si strictly (and simply) separated from other roads? I don't know. I've never been to the Americas.


----------



## Slagathor

*Germany, Austerity’s Champion, Faces Some Big Repair Bills*

(...)

Germany was once known for its superfast autobahns, efficient industry and ability to rally public resources for big projects, like integration with the former East Germany. But more recently, it has been forced to confront a somewhat uncharacteristic problem: Its infrastructure — roads, bridges, train tracks, waterways and the like — is aging in a way that experts say could undermine its economic growth for years to come. 

(...)

A government-appointed commission recently concluded that it needed to spend 7.2 billion euros a year, or $9.7 billion, for the next 15 years — roughly 70 percent more than it spends now — just to get existing infrastructure back into shape.

(...)

From 1991 to 2012, Germany reduced its budget for maintenance by 20 percent, according to Gernot Sieg, a transportation expert and professor at the University of Muenster. It now spends 1.5 percent of its gross domestic product on maintenance, compared with a European average of 2.5 percent. About 46 percent of Germany’s bridges, 41 percent of its streets and 20 percent of its highways need repair, Dr. Sieg said. 

(...)

Read the entire article on nytimes.com​


----------



## italystf

Attus said:


> And actually the first road being called as "Autobahn" was the current A555 between Cologne/Köln and Bonn.
> Which is strange beacause those days (1932) that road loked like that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't like like something we call an Autobahn nowadays.
> NB: The current A115 is older but it was not called as Autobahn but as _Automobil-Verkehrs- und Übungs-Straße _(AVUS).


Such kind of roads (undivided, for motorized traffic only) were built in Italy before 1932 (the first was the Autostrada dei Laghi in 1924) and also in the USA (New York?) there was something similar. So it has no sense saying that Germany built its firts motorway in 1932, as there were already similar roads in other countries (and Autobahn, autoroute, motorway, autocesta, avtocesta, autopista, autosnelweg, auto-estrada, autoput,... are all calques of autostrada).

We need to know what was the first road in the world with the following features:
- divided
- at least 2x2
- grade-separated
- motorized traffic only
This one would be the first motorway in the world. I think it's either in Germany or in the States.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> 21th November: *B1 Aerzen bypass* (4.3km; partial 2+1; 14.8 million €; plan approval procedure: August 2006 to December 2007; u/c since May 2009; OSM)


Things are seriously wrong in Germany, it takes 1 year longer to build a 4 km two-lane bypass of Aerzen than it took to construct the Millau Viaduct in France.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Attus said:


> Perhaps our North American friends can't find the proper word just because their controlled access highways are not si strictly (and simply) separated from other roads? I don't know. I've never been to the Americas.


One of your North American friends answered this question, but said answer has been erased.

Don't know why I bothered.


----------



## definitivo

A 94, when it will be completed ?


----------



## MichiH

^^ 2030+x


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> - 21th November: *B1 Aerzen bypass* (4.3km; partial 2+1; 14.8 million €; plan approval procedure: August 2006 to December 2007; u/c since May 2009; OSM)





ChrisZwolle said:


> Things are seriously wrong in Germany, it takes 1 year longer to build a 4 km two-lane bypass of Aerzen than it took to construct the Millau Viaduct in France.


But the _Aerzen_ bypass was finally opened today, see press release. About 13,500 used the B1 through road until now.

I think the construction progress is not so bad in Germany in comparison with the planning progress. Two examples I read today(!):
- The beginning of the plan approval procedure for the *B474 Waltrop bypass* (2x2; 8.0km; northern A45 extension; OSM) is postponed by one year. Groundbreaking 2019+x. The planning has already started in the 1970th. The first plan approval order was passed in 1991 but challenged and canceled. 80% of the Waltrop citizens voted for the bypass in 2008. But there is also advance: The costs have increased from 64 to 75 million € within the last 10 month (source).
- The beginning of the plan approval procedure for the *B107 eastern Chemnitz bypass* (2x2; ~10km; A4-S236; 100 million €; OSM) is postponed by some years. The documents are out-dated (source).

I am reading things like that in German media almost every day .


----------



## Corvinus

Attus said:


> It doesn't like like something we call an Autobahn nowadays.


Of course not - but back in the day, it was still sort of a technological miracle. Which was also admired by Soviet soldiers arriving in Germany during WW2, some of whom then being sent to labour camps for the crime of "praising life abroad". :bash:

It is also said Germany, in 1945, had a higher-standard infrastructure than most Eastern Bloc countries in 1989 ...


----------



## Stahlsturm

MichiH said:


> ^^ 2030+x


You are being rather optimistic I'm afraid. I fear the proper answer would be "not in our lifetime"


----------



## Stahlsturm

Corvinus said:


> It is also said Germany, in 1945, had a higher-standard infrastructure than most Eastern Bloc countries in 1989 ...


In 1939, probably. In 1945 there wasn't much left thanks to the combined efforts of RAF and USAF.


----------



## 909

ChrisZwolle said:


> Things are seriously wrong in Germany, it takes 1 year longer to build a 4 km two-lane bypass of Aerzen than it took to construct the Millau Viaduct in France.


Regarding infrastructure, Germany is becoming more and more the sick man of Europe, which is quite ironic considering the country's automotive heritage and culture. Let's hope politicians acknowledge change is needed.


----------



## Road_UK

Stahlsturm said:


> In 1939, probably. In 1945 there wasn't much left thanks to the combined efforts of RAF and USAF.


Oh sorry, was that wrong?


----------



## Stahlsturm

Road_UK said:


> Oh sorry, was that wrong?


Well, it was war and terrible things happen in war. To me (born 67) all this is history to learn from and not to repeat it but other than that, just history.
Now, to keep this Autobahn related, if you keep this strictly technical and don't consider the deaths involved, I'm pretty sure the forced removal of large parts of infrastructure enabled post 1949 Germany to build things better and more streamlined instead of being stuck with old infrastructure and having to work with what has grown over the years. Wiping the slate clean must be a planner's dream (and a commoner's nightmare).


----------



## sotonsi

Don't forget that the Germany army retreating trashed the Autobahn, etc to slow down the Soviets and Allies.

I'd go with 1943, rather than '45 or '39.

Also, I'm not sure that Moldova or Ukraine are even on the '43 level now.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Oh sorry, was that wrong?


I too thought that 1945 was the wrong year to choose for Germany's peak infrastructure, simply because so much of it had been destroyed by then. No one said anything about wrongness. Would have said '39 but I didn't think of early-wartime construction.

Have a Schnapps; you'll feel better. :cheers:


----------



## tunnel owl

sotonsi said:


> Don't forget that the Germany army retreating trashed the Autobahn, etc to slow down the Soviets and Allies.


Yes, and historically there are two strange facts about this. German army mostly trashed bridges to slow down allied forces but is is common sense nowadays, that german military logistic went for nearly all transport via railway. Autobahn could not be used by tanks, (ok, say used one time only). So strategically viewed the Autobahn was an error.

Another interesting fact about that Autobahn created much jobs is, that they found no one working there. Many people were killed and even if they could have used machines they considered hand-work in order to decrease the unemploymenrt-rate. Later political prisoners died for the Autobahn. But it has never been a job-machine as it was told in the propaganda.

Kind regards


----------



## MichiH

^^ Exactly


----------



## flierfy

909 said:


> Regarding infrastructure, Germany is becoming more and more the sick man of Europe...


Can you actually prove this bold claim? Because it doesn't match my experience. The Germany I know is still well ahead infrastructure-wise bar a few countries maybe. And then you come along and talk it down. I'm curious to read your explanation.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Germany is not becoming the sick man of Europe but Germany is getting more and more problems to maintain the existing and the future infrastructure network. I am complaining about the way Germany is handling it: Delays in planning and construction, rising costs, stupid political announcements, still big plans (BVWP 2015) but no money, bullshit discussion regarding car toll, no good financing concept, exaggerated ecological actions (bats are more important than humans),... It's imbecile!


----------



## Road_UK

Other than that, obviously, the infrastructure is falling apart. Some roads are in extremely bad condition almost going au pair with Belgium. Traffic congestion is getting out of control in places and traffic discipline is a lot to be desired for.


----------



## Slagathor

MichiH said:


> ^^ Germany is not becoming the sick man of Europe but Germany is getting more and more problems to maintain the existing and the future infrastructure network. I am complaining about the way Germany is handling it: Delays in planning and construction, rising costs, stupid political announcements, still big plans (BVWP 2015) but no money, bullshit discussion regarding car toll, no good financing concept, exaggerated ecological actions (bats are more important than humans),... It's imbecile!


Sounds like Holland in the 1990s.


----------



## 909

flierfy said:


> Can you actually prove this bold claim? Because it doesn't match my experience. The Germany I know is still well ahead infrastructure-wise bar a few countries maybe. And then you come along and talk it down. I'm curious to read your explanation.


Some examples were given recently in this thread, but these are arguably the most illustrative:
_From 1991 to 2012, Germany reduced its budget for maintenance by 20 percent, according to Gernot Sieg, a transportation expert and professor at the University of Muenster. It now spends 1.5 percent of its gross domestic product on maintenance, compared with a European average of 2.5 percent. About 46 percent of Germany’s bridges, 41 percent of its streets and 20 percent of its highways need repair, Dr. Sieg said. (NY Times)_​_Over the past two decades, money spent by the government on roads, bridges, railways and public transport infrastructure has fallen in real terms or stagnated, while in the period 1991 to 2010, the usage of the roads for passenger journeys increased by about 27 percent and freight by 75 percent, statistics published by the Environment Ministry and DIW show. As a result, the spending shortfall on upkeep of the transport network is running at about 4 billion euros as year, the DIW says. That’s causing fraying throughout. According to a report prepared for the German parliament in January, 14 percent of the country’s 39,000 highway bridges are in a condition that could compromise traffic safety. (Bloomberg)_​This Summer a few concrete Autobahnen in southern Germany were damaged due to the heat. This could have been an incident, but recently more and more examples emerged showing the decline of Germany's roads. The Rader Hochbrücke (A7) was recently closed for all trucks due to emergency repairs, which caused massive traffic jams. The Rheinbrücke (A1) in Leverkusen is crumbling as we speak, idem for the Schwelmtalbrücke (A1) near Wuppertal, and more bridges are in desperate need of repair or replacement. The same applies to all bridges on the A45. It's estimated by the Deutsches Institut für Urbanistik that before 2030 a total 67,000 bridges need to be repaired or replaced. A growing number of Autobahnen is facing gridlock, but the length of time it takes to get planning permission and eventually a new road built is quite long. 

From my experience, many roads in North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony are in bad or sometimes terrible shape. It's good to see that some are currently being fixed, but many others aren't. And in my opinion, projects like the Lövenich tunnel (A1) in Cologne; the new viaduct at Kreuz Oberhausen (A3); the northern bypass of Bad Oeynhausen (A30); widening of the A5 near Karlsruhe; widening of the A57 near Neuss; or the A33 between Osnabrück and Bielefeld, could and should (have) be(en) finished much earlier. Especially compared to new projects nowadays in the Netherlands (where planning of some projects took decades not that long ago).

The truth is that Germany has neglected its infrastructure. It looks like there is something fundamentally wrong with the attitude towards its roads, not only considering the closed crumbling bridges, but also because of the terrible slow construction of most projects, funding issues and ghostly unused construction sites.


----------



## XxlalixX

But germany is working on it...the elections this year might have changed the way they handle it...


----------



## 909

I hope so.


----------



## MichiH

XxlalixX said:


> But germany is working on it...the elections this year might have changed the way they handle it...


The new strategie (Bodewig committee) was already started in 2012 and decided at the Minister of Transport meeting in early October 2013 (> click <).

I think it is still only blabla or "stupid political announcements".

Funding is one important point but planning progress is another one. I've not yet read about plans (or even good ideas) to improve these procedures.


----------



## Attus

Infrastructure networks in Germany (both train and road) are in very bad state. I think RoadUK wrote it right: it's falling apart. According to official(!) statistics, some 40% (I can't remember the precise value) of motorway bridges need to be refurbished immediately. I think the reality is even worse than that. In quite a large part of bridges is traffic somehow restricted (speed limit and/or weight limit and/or bridge is partially closed, A7 bridge over the Kiel Canal has all of them). 
A1 bridge in Leverkusen is nowadays a very deep issue of road traffic, in rush hours, every day there's at least 8 km congestion from all directions towards that bridge. 

Additionally the network, especially in densely inhabitated regions, is very poor. I mean, if you look at the map, the motorway network of Western Germany looks good, but is not able to manage the traffic. Every afternoon if you listen to radio, the women says: "Dear audience, I'll report about congestions but only about the ones which are longer than 5 km because we have no time to talk about everything." And then she lists ten, maybe twelve congested motorways. 18km, 12km, 8 km. 

Lots of speed restrictions because of bad surface quality. 

And the situation is similar in railways, too, but it is off topic here, so I only say, that is not better. The outrageous situation of Mainz Hbf. this summer was only the peak of iceberg.


----------



## MichiH

909 said:


> The truth is that Germany has neglected its infrastructure. It looks like there is something fundamentally wrong with the attitude towards its roads, not only considering the closed crumbling bridges, but also because of the terrible slow construction of most projects, funding issues and ghostly unused construction sites.





Attus said:


> Additionally the network, especially in densely inhabitated regions, is very poor.


Exactly. The traffic volume has especially rised in southern Germany.

Hesse has started a good congestion prevention system (e.g. reduction of congestion times by 80% from 2003 to 2011, source - but also effected by the economy crisis).

Bavaria has build a lot of Autobahns in the last decades and has a good network now. Well, A94 and B15n (former A93) are still fare away from completion and some Autobahns are very congested, but there is a network.

But Baden-Württemberg... No adequate Autobahn network, 2-laned roads with AADT >> 20,000 vehicles/day (also through roads), daily congestions, very slow planning progress, changing priorities, creating many expertises, reducing road standard, increasing ecological standards, very long construction times, NIMBYs, lead by green party since 2011,...

See press release "The future of road construction in Baden-Württemberg" (20th November 2013). The proposal list for the BVWP 2015 contains projects for 11.2 billion €. Baden-Württemberg gets 120 million € per year. That means it needs 93 years to build this projects! See briefing presentation.

What a mess!


----------



## 909

MichiH said:


> Funding is one important point but planning progress is another one. I've not yet read about plans (or even good ideas) to improve these procedures.


First of all, politicians should use taxes, tolls, and other fees levied on drivers also for infrastructure — not for other stuff. Decision makers in Berlin could also take some cues from the _Verkehrsprojekte Deutsche Einheit_, which helped building new infrastructure with relative ease between the eastern en western part of Germany. Furthermore they could take a look at their neighbors in the Netherlands, where the so-called Crisis and Recovery Act was adopted a couple of years ago. This law was meant to speed up decision-making, allowing important projects to be carried out, without any delay caused by legal procedures in court or elsewhere.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I know. Good examples (ideas) but nothing happens!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What is quite notable is the large proportion of bridges that need immediate replacement, even to the point they face emergency closures for trucks. A45 in Hessen needs to replace 22 viaducts (Talbrücken) and several more in NRW needs replacement as well. 

Besides the obvious replacement projects, there are also a large number of bridges with weight limitations. These may not seem so obvious for the average motorist, but these are a nightmare for truckers who face exceedingly long detours. 

Overall Autobahn pavement quality is acceptable. There are frequently segments that would qualify as "mediocre" and some as "in need of replacement" (for example A7 north of Hannover, A61 north of Ludwigshafen or A1 north of Trier). They are actually working a lot on replacing worn-out pavement and modernizing road equipment (especially barriers in the median). Although works are slow, they are doing it on a large scale. The problem is, repaving does not cost that much, maybe 2 - 3 million per kilometer for a complete resurfacing project. 

However, replacing bridges is much more costly, especially in the scale of river bridges and valley viaducts. These projects run in the billions combined, and postponing it will create more problems than postponing repavement work. Many bridges are now considered "beyond repair" and can only be replaced, some being less than 35 years old. This may have not been necessary if they adequately maintained it.

In terms of surface quality, local roads are much more problematic. Some state and district roads are in absolute disrepair, something we used to see in Romania or Ukraine. I've recently driven some local roads off A61 that were entirely destroyed. Some towns are surrounded by "Strassenschäden" signs.


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is quite notable is the large proportion of bridges that need immediate replacement, even to the point they face emergency closures for trucks.


Exactly.



> Overall Autobahn pavement quality is acceptable.


You know, I've come here from Hungary, and motorway pavement quality is much worse in Western Germany than in Hungary (secondary roads, however, are in very bad state in Hungary as well).



> They are actually working a lot on replacing worn-out pavement and modernizing road equipment (especially barriers in the median).


Last time I drove to Frankfurt I counted 11 Baustelle in this 170 km.


----------



## Isek

According to the size of the country population and economical wise German infrastructure lacks far behind the Spanish, Italian, French or Dutch.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> In terms of surface quality, local roads are much more problematic. Some state and district roads are in absolute disrepair, something we used to see in Romania or Ukraine. I've recently driven some local roads off A61 that were entirely destroyed. Some towns are surrounded by "Strassenschäden" signs.


Well, the comparision with local roads in Romania or Ukraine is a little bit exaggerated but you are right. I think the number of big potholes is less in Germany.
I also know a lot of roads with very bad surface quality in southern and central Germany e.g. the B276 east of _Gelnhausen_ (Hesse) with a reduction to 30kph. In addition there are a lot of bad roads in former GDR states. Improvements are in progress but slowly.


----------



## MichiH

*A20 in Lower Saxony*

The plans for the future *A20 section b/n Westerstede (A28) and Jaderberg (A29)* have been approved by the Federal Ministry of Transport (12.9km; 161 million €; OSM; project page). The documents for the plan approval procedure can be prepared now.

Source

About 12.5 million € per kilometer for a new Autobahn in plain country (but with 3 interchanges). I am pretty sure that the costs will even more increase massive.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Well, the comparision with local roads in Romania or Ukraine is a little bit exaggerated but you are right. I think the number of big potholes is less in Germany.


Yep, from what I've seen the worst potholes are temporarily repaired with asphalt. (probably to avoid legal claims) But it results in roads like this:









L114 Wehr, RLP










L306, Bendorf, RLP


----------



## MichiH

^^ Exactly. That's what I meant!


----------



## XxlalixX

MichiH said:


> Exactly. The traffic volume has especially rised in southern Germany.
> 
> Hesse has started a good congestion prevention system (e.g. reduction of congestion times by 80% from 2003 to 2011, source - but also effected by the economy crisis).
> 
> Bavaria has build a lot of Autobahns in the last decades and has a good network now. Well, A94 and B15n (former A93) are still fare away from completion and some Autobahns are very congested, but there is a network.
> 
> But Baden-Württemberg... No adequate Autobahn network, 2-laned roads with AADT >> 20,000 vehicles/day (also through roads), daily congestions, very slow planning progress, changing priorities, creating many expertises, reducing road standard, increasing ecological standards, very long construction times, NIMBYs, lead by green party since 2011,...
> 
> See press release "The future of road construction in Baden-Württemberg" (20th November 2013). The proposal list for the BVWP 2015 contains projects for 11.2 billion . Baden-Württemberg gets 120 million  per year. That means it needs 93 years to build this projects! See briefing presentation.
> 
> What a mess!


In badenwürttemberg, its not so bad there, there are lots days were there is no traffic on most of the autobahns, my father works at stuttgart airport, he said that it is bad to drive at rusch hour, but thats only the one big city in badenwürtemberg...
From freiburg to frankfurt...thas autobahn is not bad at all...i have never seen much traffic there...
And the ones in eastern germany...those are bad, mainly becaus of the ddr...


----------



## MichiH

XxlalixX said:


> In badenwürttemberg, its not so bad there, there are lots days were there is no traffic on most of the autobahns,


Yes, the Autobahns around Stuttgart are only heavy congested during rush hours. But there are not so many Autobahns . The main problem is on B and L roads.

Nevertheless, according to http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/ Stuttgart is the most congested German city/region (2013):

1. Moscow
2. Istanbul
3. Warsaw
4. Palermo
5. Marseille
6. Rome
7. Paris
8. Stockholm
9. Brussels
10. Lyon
11. Nice
*12. Stuttgart*
13. Hamburg
14. London
15. Berlin



> my father works at stuttgart airport, he said that it is bad to drive at rusch hour, but thats only the one big city in badenwürtemberg...


There are daily congestions on A81 and A8 in the rush hours.

AADT 2010 on A8 b/n Leonberg and Wendlingen (2x3): 98,600 to 147,600.
AADT 2010 on A81 b/n Heilbronn and Leonberg (2x3): 91,100 to 129,300.
AADT 2010 on A81 b/n AK Stuttgart and Böblingen (2x2): 79,100 to 125,200.

The truck portion is also very high on the west-east Autobahns A6 and A8. The A6 has only some 2x3 sections, the vast bulk is still 2x2.



> From freiburg to frankfurt...thas autobahn is not bad at all...i have never seen much traffic there...


The congestions b/n Offenburg and Rastatt should be over b/c the A5 widening is almost completed. The A5 b/n Karlsruhe and Mannheim/Heidelberg is very congested and the upgrade priority is very high (I wish the A8/A81 would have a higher priority).

AADT 2010 on A5 b/n Hemsbach and Walldorf (2x2): 63,800 to 84,300.
AADT 2010 on A5 b/n Walldorf and AD Karlsruhe (2x3): 99,700 to 140,100.
AADT 2010 on A5 b/n Karlsruhe and Baden-Baden (2x3): 62,800 to 84,800.
AADT 2010 on A5 b/n Baden-Baden and Freiburg (2x2): 52,300 to 69,200.

The A7 b/n Würzburg and Ulm and the A81 b/n Würzburg and Heilbronn are very vacant. But all other Autobahns in Baden-Württemberg are very busy.



> And the ones in eastern germany...those are bad, mainly becaus of the ddr...


Almost all former DDR Autobahns have been renewed. The problems with bad road surfaces are on B and L roads.


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## Autobahnftw

Hi, im interested in old autobahn plans and i have found this map with shows autobahn network. 

http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/PlanungBauKarteOhneAS.pdf 

what i wonder is, what is the grey road at bottom right which only have a question mark?


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## Christophorus

@Autobahnftw

you found this also?

http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Streckenlegende_e.pdf


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## thun

Grey are all dismissed plans.
The one at the bottom would be A98, of which parts were buildt: A98 at Hochrhein valley and around Singen/Hohentwiel, B31n as a stripped down bypass for Überlingen and the Friedrichshafen-Lindau shore, B12n/A980 between Weitnau and Kempten/Dreieck Allgäu, the junction with A95. East of Marktoberdorf, B472 did get/gets an upgrate good enough for the traffic (bypasses of Marktoberdorf (approved) an Schongau/Peiting (buildt), the road between both towns is mostly 2+1).


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## ChrisZwolle

I think he meant the planned motorway through the Berchtesgaden area, that would connect Salzburg with Innsbruck (and not via Rosenheim).


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## snowdog

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, from what I've seen the worst potholes are temporarily repaired with asphalt. (probably to avoid legal claims) But it results in roads like this:
> 
> http://cdu-rlp.de/infrastruktur/images/L114.jpg[img]
> L114 Wehr, RLP
> 
> 
> [img]http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/cms_media/module_img/156/78379_1_popup_78379_1_org_stromberg_4.jpg[img]
> L306, Bendorf, RLP[/QUOTE]
> 
> This is better than nothing, rather have this ''messy'' road than deep potholes or rut... This mess doesn't damage your car as much.


----------



## Road_UK

It's not very comfortable driving though, and on roads like these, in Germany, they usually slap very slow speed limits on them. Of course you never noticed that, seeing that you are 1: a self-imposed Germany expert and 2: you ignore all speed limits anyway.


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## cinxxx

^^Still better then these though


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## MichiH

*B29 Schwäbisch Gmünd*



MichiH said:


> The B29 _Schwäbisch Gmünd_ bypass (OSM) will be opened in late November 2013. This last 2.6km long section was started in August 2006 (plan approval order was passed in March 1997) and contains a 2.230km long tunnel.


The B29 bypass was opened today. The road has a length of 4.1km (my former information was wrong) and has costs of 280 million €. The tunnel is 2-laned but the feeders are 4-laned. The AADT on the B29 through road is 35,000 vehicles per day, the future AADT in the tunnel is predicted with 19,800 vehicles per day (to avoid the need of a 2nd tube which is required if the predicted AADT is 20,000 or higher). The construction time was 87 month (groundbreaking August 2006).

Mr. Hermann, Baden-Württemberg Minister of Transport (Green Party), said that the tunnel will become a bootleneck if the mobility behavior will not change. People have to use trains and busses or should make car-pools.
An anecdote: Mr. Hermann was sticking in a congestion about three weeks ago. The police let him pass the tunnel. The citizens were not amused.

Sources: 1, 2 and 3.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Mr. Hermann, Baden-Württemberg Minister of Transport (Green Party), said that the tunnel will become a bottleneck if the mobility behavior will not change.


He apparently forgot that politicians are there to serve the people, not vice versa.


----------



## ChrisZwolle




----------



## Stahlsturm

ChrisZwolle said:


> He apparently forgot that politicians are there to serve the people, not vice versa.


He's Green Party. They think that they have a mandate to force people towards what the party thinks is better behaviour for the people. Given the history of German parties who knew best it never ceases to amaze me how they keep getting elected.


----------



## MichiH

Stahlsturm said:


> He's Green Party. They think that they have a mandate to force people towards what the party thinks is better behaviour for the people. Given the history of German parties who knew best it never ceases to amaze me how they keep getting elected.


But the substandard planning was caused by the conservative CDU Party which led Baden-Württemberg for about 60 years. Due to there is also an emergency tunnel the costs for a 2nd tube would not be much higher than 280 million €. Building a 2nd tube in a couple of years will cost a lot of extra money!

I've no idea about the follow-up of the EU rule that all tunnels with an AADT > 20,000 vehicles per day must have 2 tubes. What will happen if the AADT in the Gmünder Einhorntunnel will be higher than 20,000, is there an obligation to build a 2nd tube within x years or is it not mandatory to upgrade the tunnel with a 2nd tube (is the rule only a recommendation for existing tunnels)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The EU directive says that tunnels must have two tubes if the AADT exceeds 20,000 vehicles per day. However, it does not mandate 4 lanes, it could be one lane per tube as well.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Stahlsturm said:


> He's Green Party. They think that they have a mandate to force people towards what the party thinks is better behaviour for the people. Given the history of German parties who knew best it never ceases to amaze me how they keep getting elected.


German politics is, obviously, none of my business, but does anyone see the irony in a Green Party leader being stuck in traffic? (I'm not saying that's why he should have been let out of it, more "why was he on the road at all?")


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The EU directive says that tunnels must have two tubes if the AADT exceeds 20,000 vehicles per day. However, it does not mandate 4 lanes, it could be one lane per tube as well.


Thanks . I know that 2 tubes does not mean 4 lanes. But does the directive mandate to build a 2nd tubes within x years?


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> German politics is, obviously, none of my business, but does anyone see the irony in a Green Party leader being stuck in traffic? (I'm not saying that's why he should have been let out of it, more "why was he on the road at all?")


I've also seen that irony. That's why I posted it (in addition b/c someone - the district president from FDP Party - helped him to find a way out) .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Thanks . I know that 2 tubes does not mean 4 lanes. But does the directive mandate to build a 2nd tubes within x years?


The exact text is here (in German if you wish):
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32004L0054:de:NOT

Technically it only applies to tunnels part of the Trans-European Network (the Netherlands decided to let it apply to every tunnel).

2.1.2:

Wenn bei Tunneln, die sich in der Planungsphase befinden, eine 15-Jahres-Prognose des Verkehrsaufkommens zeigt, dass das Verkehrsaufkommen 10 000 Fahrzeuge je Tag und Fahrstreifen übersteigen wird, muss auf jeden Fall zu dem Zeitpunkt, an dem dieser Wert überschritten wird, ein Doppelröhrentunnel mit Richtungsverkehr vorhanden sein.

In any case, where, for tunnels at the design stage, a 15-year forecast shows that the traffic volume will exceed 10 000 vehicles per day per lane, a twin-tube tunnel with
unidirectional traffic shall be in place at the time when this value will be exceeded.​
The 19800 vpd value seems like a manipulated traffic model to not having to comply with these standards. Otherwise it would be a huge coincidence, and I don't believe in that.


----------



## Autobahnftw

Christophorus said:


> @Autobahnftw
> 
> you found this also?
> 
> http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Streckenlegende_e.pdf





thun said:


> Grey are all dismissed plans.
> The one at the bottom would be A98, of which parts were buildt: A98 at Hochrhein valley and around Singen/Hohentwiel, B31n as a stripped down bypass for Überlingen and the Friedrichshafen-Lindau shore, B12n/A980 between Weitnau and Kempten/Dreieck Allgäu, the junction with A95. East of Marktoberdorf, B472 did get/gets an upgrate good enough for the traffic (bypasses of Marktoberdorf (approved) an Schongau/Peiting (buildt), the road between both towns is mostly 2+1).


Hey, sorry for confusing, i know what that grey means dismissed, and the thing i am talking about the is the road in the bottom right corner that doesnt have number like A98, it have only a question mark



ChrisZwolle said:


> I think he meant the planned motorway through the Berchtesgaden area, that would connect Salzburg with Innsbruck (and not via Rosenheim).


That makes sense, do you have more information about it?


----------



## MichiH

Autobahnftw said:


> Hey, sorry for confusing, i know what that grey means dismissed, and the thing i am talking about the is the road in the bottom right corner that doesnt have number like A98, it have only a question mark
> That makes sense, do you have more information about it?


I've never seen that former planned Autobahn on that map. I've already contacted the owner of autobahnatlas-online.de and I am still waiting for response.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Technically it only applies to tunnels part of the Trans-European Network (the Netherlands decided to let it apply to every tunnel).


Ok. So no problem if the AADT will actually exceed the prediction.
I think Germany has also decided to apply it to every tunnel. 



ChrisZwolle said:


> The 19800 vpd value seems like a manipulated traffic model to not having to comply with these standards. Otherwise it would be a huge coincidence, and I don't believe in that.


Yes, it must be manipulated.


----------



## flierfy

909 said:


> Some examples were given recently in this thread, but these are arguably the most illustrative:
> _From 1991 to 2012, Germany reduced its budget for maintenance by 20 percent, according to Gernot Sieg, a transportation expert and professor at the University of Muenster. It now spends 1.5 percent of its gross domestic product on maintenance, compared with a European average of 2.5 percent. About 46 percent of Germany’s bridges, 41 percent of its streets and 20 percent of its highways need repair, Dr. Sieg said. (NY Times)_​_Over the past two decades, money spent by the government on roads, bridges, railways and public transport infrastructure has fallen in real terms or stagnated, while in the period 1991 to 2010, the usage of the roads for passenger journeys increased by about 27 percent and freight by 75 percent, statistics published by the Environment Ministry and DIW show. As a result, the spending shortfall on upkeep of the transport network is running at about 4 billion euros as year, the DIW says. That’s causing fraying throughout. According to a report prepared for the German parliament in January, 14 percent of the country’s 39,000 highway bridges are in a condition that could compromise traffic safety. (Bloomberg)_​This Summer a few concrete Autobahnen in southern Germany were damaged due to the heat. This could have been an incident, but recently more and more examples emerged showing the decline of Germany's roads. The Rader Hochbrücke (A7) was recently closed for all trucks due to emergency repairs, which caused massive traffic jams. The Rheinbrücke (A1) in Leverkusen is crumbling as we speak, idem for the Schwelmtalbrücke (A1) near Wuppertal, and more bridges are in desperate need of repair or replacement. The same applies to all bridges on the A45. It's estimated by the Deutsches Institut für Urbanistik that before 2030 a total 67,000 bridges need to be repaired or replaced. A growing number of Autobahnen is facing gridlock, but the length of time it takes to get planning permission and eventually a new road built is quite long.
> 
> From my experience, many roads in North Rhine-Westphalia and Lower Saxony are in bad or sometimes terrible shape. It's good to see that some are currently being fixed, but many others aren't. And in my opinion, projects like the Lövenich tunnel (A1) in Cologne; the new viaduct at Kreuz Oberhausen (A3); the northern bypass of Bad Oeynhausen (A30); widening of the A5 near Karlsruhe; widening of the A57 near Neuss; or the A33 between Osnabrück and Bielefeld, could and should (have) be(en) finished much earlier. Especially compared to new projects nowadays in the Netherlands (where planning of some projects took decades not that long ago).
> 
> The truth is that Germany has neglected its infrastructure. It looks like there is something fundamentally wrong with the attitude towards its roads, not only considering the closed crumbling bridges, but also because of the terrible slow construction of most projects, funding issues and ghostly unused construction sites.


You do realise that you just cited the scaremongering numbers of certain lobby groups, don't you. What you fail to deliver though, and that is what was actually needed to prove your point, is an objective assessments of the state of German roads in comparison to other European countries.

I can assure you that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the German attitude towards its roads. It seems to me, however, that your attitude towards Germany and German roads in particular is fundamentally flawed.


----------



## 909

flierfy said:


> You do realise that you just cited the scaremongering numbers of certain lobby groups, don't you. What you fail to deliver though, and that is what was actually needed to prove your point, is an objective assessments of the state of German roads in comparison to other European countries.
> 
> I can assure you that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the German attitude towards its roads. It seems to me, however, that your attitude towards Germany and German roads in particular is fundamentally flawed.


Well, it seems like I've touched a raw nerve. First of all, my attitude towards Germany and German roads in particular is not fundamentally flawed. I visit Germany quite often and love being there, and have driven a large part of the Autobahn network, so I'm quite familiar with it. That does not necessarily imply my impressions are representative for the current state of Germany's infrastructure, but it does provide some insights.

Second, the facts are out there, the examples were given, and many forum members (and even politicians) seem to disagree with you. The truth is that investment in the maintenance and quality assurance of the transport infrastructure has been largely neglected, which became especially clear when many bridges were investigated or even closed (for trucks). Arguably worst is the Rheinbrücke (A1) in Leverkussen, from which not even could be guarenteed it will be there in 2020. This is not "scaremongering of certain lobby groups", this is the truth which painfully exposes the negligence of essential parts of the infrastructure. This is perhaps the worst example, but not an exception as earlier mentioned in this thread.

Claiming that I "fail to deliver (...) an objective assessments of the state of German roads in comparison to other European countries" is ironic, considering you haven't come with any evidence, source or figures which prove otherwise and could back up your claim. Instead you only suggest the presented evidence were cooked up by "certain lobby groups". 

One of these "lobby groups" is the German Institute of Economic Research (DIW), which presented this Summer a publication about the current situation regarding Germany's infrastructure (complete report here). They conclude that Germany is living off its reserves. Both the state and the private sector spend too little money on infrastructure. According to OECD statistics, Germany only spends 1.6 percent of its GDP on infrastructure (2006-2011), which is considerably less than the US and most other European nations. As written here: "to put this spending into context depreciation of public infrastructure in Germany has been outstripping investment for over a decade. (...) In 2012, German public infrastructure investment of €39.5bn was down 9.5 percent from 2011 in inflation adjusted terms." In this article, a spokesman for the German Ministry of Transport told Reuters the situation was one of "structural under-investment."

So, to quote a certain forum member: "It seems to me, however, that your attitude towards Germany and German roads in particular is fundamentally flawed."


----------



## Brussels1

There is no doubt that the German network of motorways in general is impressive. However, what is completely impossible for me to understand is the special role the german system gives to environment organisations like BUND and NABU that have a right to come up with objections to motorway projects even if not directly concerned (defenders of a general interest to protect the environment). Although the idea might have been good in the beginning, these organisations (close to the green party) now use this tool to 1) systematically delay and render much more expensive all motorway projects (in that way it is a victory for them since Germany gets much less motorway kms for its money), 2) pose objections rather based on general political standpoints than the stretch of motorway in question, or 3) manages to find a beetle, bat or frog in the vicinity of the projected road. In doing so, they are allowed to completetly short-circuit democracy. Politicians on both natiaonal and Bundes Land-level that have put their support to road infrastructure upgrade to the electoral test (often seeeral times) are incapable of implementing such a programme since the environmental organisations, often representing a small minority are able to block (or render so expensive that progress is seriously delayed. This is at the heart of many of the delays in new motorway construction and upgrades, so desparately needed in some parts of Germany.


----------



## flierfy

909 said:


> Claiming that I "fail to deliver (...) an objective assessments of the state of German roads in comparison to other European countries" is ironic, considering you haven't come with any evidence, source or figures which prove otherwise and could back up your claim. Instead you only suggest the presented evidence were cooked up by "certain lobby groups".


You aren't quite fit and well, are you. You spit vile on a country which you don't really know. You make claims which you have yet to prove. And now you want me to show evidence? You may twist the burden of prove with someone else but certainly not with me.

You said Germany's infrastructure was the sick man of Europe. I give you the hint that the only way to prove that is an objective assessment of the current state of all parts of infrastructure, not just roads, in Germany and in every other country. And don't repeat the same number over and over again. We already know that this country spends too little currently. But what you seem to forget is that this Germany has built up a lot of substance in the past which it can live off for a long time.

But when you think that there is no substance in German infrastructure, that it is better everywhere else, that water pipes in Britain are less leaky, that motorway tunnels in Switzerland are safer, that waste disposal works better in Italy, that retaining walls in Austria collapse less often, that sewage in France is more intensively treated and that cycle paths in Poland are more sophisticated than all their counterparts in Germany then go on and prove it.


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## 909

flierfy said:


> You aren't quite fit and well, are you. You spit vile on a country which you don't really know.


No, I don't spit vile on a country _I'm quite familiar with_ and which I appreciate, but I'm very critical about Germany's negligence and lack of investments. Although the upcoming coalition has vowed to boost investments in infrastructure, it has to be seen if they can and will turn the tide. 



flierfy said:


> You make claims which you have yet to prove. And now you want me to show evidence?


Yes, contrary to you I have given facts and figures backed by different sources, including the German Institute of Economic Research (DIW). If you think my views are wrong, then go ahead and prove otherwise. Or stop whining. 

It might be of interest for your that _Die Welt_ has a special section dedicated to _Infrastruktur - Wie Deutschland verfällt_. Are you planning to write angry letters to them as well?



flierfy said:


> You may twist the burden of prove with someone else but certainly not with me.


Not sure if this is a threat, but your statement is surely ironic, since I'm not the one without any prove or whatsoever. 



flierfy said:


> You said Germany's infrastructure was the sick man of Europe. I give you the hint that the only way to prove that is an objective assessment of the current state of all parts of infrastructure, not just roads, in Germany and in every other country. And don't repeat the same number over and over again. We already know that this country spends too little currently.


To be blunt, Germany is currently the infrastructural sick man of Europe. This decline is not limited to roads and rail- and waterways. But roads are the most visible parts of infrastructure and most relevant since this is a thread dedicated to it. Now you've seen the numbers yourself and acknowledged Germany spends too little, there is no need to complain about any lack of proof from my side. From this perspective I would recommend to read your replies once again. 



flierfy said:


> But what you seem to forget is that this Germany has built up a lot of substance in the past which it can live off for a long time.


The same applies to many other countries, from which some are economically and financially (and arguably political) performing less than Germany. The fact that most of the infrastructure isn't new anymore shouldn't be an excuse for the structural lack of investments and maintenance. 



flierfy said:


> But when you think that there is no substance in German infrastructure, that it is better everywhere else, that water pipes in Britain are less leaky, that motorway tunnels in Switzerland are safer, that waste disposal works better in Italy, that retaining walls in Austria collapse less often, that sewage in France is more intensively treated and that cycle paths in Poland are more sophisticated than all their counterparts in Germany then go on and prove it.


Other countries have their issues as well, but almost none are spending as little as Germany on infrastructure. The country's track record isn't good at all considering the wealth, economic power and performance, taxes, low level of corruption, industrial heritage and history, plus the fact the country is an important transport hub for the whole of Europe, and known for its _Gründlichkeit_. For me it's even more remarkable since Germany is in the words of Gerhard Schröder an _Autofahrernation_.


----------



## Heico-M

Okay, but this is nothing new.
What do you suggest should be done?


----------



## 909

Heico-M said:


> Okay, but this is nothing new.
> What do you suggest should be done?


Some points were mentioned in this thread some pages ago, and most (if not all) were undoubtedly suggested by other forum members earlier:

Politicians should use taxes, tolls, and other fees levied on drivers also for infrastructure — not for other political projects. It's doubtful if this is realistic, but luckily an increase in government spending on infrastructure is already on the table (assuming the CDU/CSU and the SPD could form a coalition).
PPP (Public Private Partnership), a partnership between the government and one or more private sector companies. This could boost investments and speed of construction. Besides construction, also operation and maintenance would be done by a private company (or companies), which also collects the tolls. PPP has already been applied on some projects, for example the widening of the A1 between Bremen and Hamburg.
A legal framework must be implemented in order to accelerate the realization of infrastructure projects. These measures would allow important projects to be carried out, without any delay caused by legal procedures in court or elsewhere. It would also tackle the administrative obstacles and objections raised by environmentalists and nimbys (as pointed out by forum member Brussels1 a couple of posts earlier). Furthermore it would also accelerate the appeal procedures. The regulatory framework should also simplify the procedures. This has been successfully applied in the Netherlands.
Many new projects could and must be build much faster. Compared to most projects in the Netherlands nowadays, the speed of construction of new roads or the widening of existing ones is way too slow. PPP-projects will boost the speed of construction as well as it is in the interest of the participating companies.
Don't vote for the Greens. 
All in all, it seems like this isn't insurmountable. It's not even a matter of money, which is there only being diverted to other political purposes, but a matter of vision, determination and decisiveness (the armchair expert has spoken).


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## thun

We know from experience that PPP on road infrastructure isn't a good deal for Germany - tax payers pay more in the long run (typically because the state has to give toll revenues to private investors). The only real advantage would be that you might be able to raise necessary funds faster, but given the very, very low cost of credit for the German Federation at the moment and that planning and permission typically takes years that's (theoretically) not really that much of an issue.

The main step forward would be a drastic reform of the permission process, but that's quite unlikely, I think.


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## ChrisZwolle

The case of a PPP project in Niedersachsen was only a few millions more expensive in the long run, while achieving much faster road works (saving years of construction time), making the improved infrastructure available sooner. While you can't put a price on that, a couple of lousy millions on a multi-hundred million contract is not that notable.


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## MattiG

thun said:


> We know from experience that PPP on road infrastructure isn't a good deal for Germany - tax payers pay more in the long run (typically because the state has to give toll revenues to private investors). The only real advantage would be that you might be able to raise necessary funds faster, but given the very, very low cost of credit for the German Federation at the moment and that planning and permission typically takes years that's (theoretically) not really that much of an issue.


From the financing perspective, that might be true. However, the calculations tend to ignore the embedded quality impact: In the PPP mode, the company to build the road is usually also responsible for the maintenance of the road for several years from their own pocket. That makes the companies unwilling to deliver substandard quality.

Another aspect in the PPP mode typically is the independence on the politicians. After a multi-year project has begun, it seldom will be canceled or postponed at the annual budgeting round. This, of course, is subject to the PPP agreement.

The first big PPP agreement in Finland was in place from 1997 to 2012. It was about upgrading a 80 section of the road 4/E75 to a motorway, and about its maintenance. Because the company had an incentive to get the road opened as quickly as possible, the road was complete about 12 months ahead the schedule. The road was in a good condition when it was returned to the ownership of goverment, and everyone seems to be happy.

Since that, three big projects have been agreed to be done in the PPP mode: 51 km of 1/E18 Lohja-Muurla (opened 2009, agreement period 24 years 2005-2029), 53 km of 7/E18 Koskenkylä-Kotka (under constructrion, open 2014, 15 years 2011-2026), and 32 km of 7/18 Hamina-Russian border (agreed, under planning, estimated construction 2016-2018).


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## agathodaimon

*craters*



cinxxx said:


> ^^Still better then these though



Unfortunately, these craters are typical for the czech´s roads in the winter time:nuts:


----------



## thun

MattiG said:


> In the PPP mode, the company to build the road is usually also responsible for the maintenance of the road for several years from their own pocket. That makes the companies unwilling to deliver substandard quality.


Theoretically, the state doesn't have an interest in substandard quality either as it has to pay maintenance of its infrastructure, so there's no difference there. However, in PPP mode, a private company indeed might have an interest in cutting maintenance cost as much as possible as this will directly increase its profit. As PPP contracts run for a predefined time, it would indeed be best of to keep to the contract and hand the road over to the government in the poorest condition possible when the contract ends. So the government has to invest more resources to control its contract partner as much as possible - which is not necessary if it owns the infrastructure itself.



> Another aspect in the PPP mode typically is the independence on the politicians. (...)


True. But as basically planning and clearance procedures in Germany take for ages, politicians can cancel a PPP project during that period any time as well. Hence that advantage really only comes in handy during the very last phase of preparation when it can't anymore be stopped by courts.



> Because the company had an incentive to get the road opened as quickly as possible, the road was complete about 12 months ahead the schedule.


True, but as the typical reason for delays in Germany are lawsuits in environmental issues (and those easily can take more than a few months), PPP doesn't bring any advantage here as clearance procedures are the same. Saving a few months during construction hence don't bring that much advantage at all.


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## Suburbanist

These crates on roads are the result of poor drainage and uneven subbase compacting.


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## ChrisZwolle

thun said:


> Saving a few months during construction hence don't bring that much advantage at all.


PPP projects can save as much as 10 years of construction work. A PPP project is typically long in distance, for example A1 Hamburg - Bremen (70 km), A5 south of Karlsruhe (35 km), A8 Augsburg - München (35 km) all of which were completed in 4 years. To compare, non PPP-projects like A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart or A3 Frankfurt - Würzburg are taking more than a decade of construction, every time a stretch of a 4 - 7 km, and then the next one. A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart has been under near-constant construction for about 15 years now and is still years away from completion.


----------



## thun

Well, you're comparing basically a widening of 2+2 lanes to 3+3 lanes (A8 Munich-Augsburg) with a almost complete reconstruction of the motorway on a new corridor (new bridges, cutting bends, etc.) in a much more demanding terrain (A8 Karlsruhe-Pforzheim). It's a bit apple and oranges there.


----------



## Road_UK

So.... 

Austria is now sulking and moaning because Germany is about to introduce a vignette for motorway use. Can you believe the balls of this country??? :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Both were difficult, because A8 Augsburg - München also was an old Reichsautobahn with no shoulders, thereby requiring an assymetrical widening (with most or all bridges and overpasses replaced). Granted, the A8 between Karlsruhe and Stuttgart requires more larger bridges, but it's the whole approach that is different, instead of employing mass men and materiel to complete the project as fast as possible, non PPP projects are mostly on a section-by-section basis, requiring much longer overall construction time, regardless of terrain.

It's a matter of money being available or not. PPP projects have all the necessary funding to complete the project as soon as realistically possible, while government-funded projects are dragged out over long periods, for example replacing the Stör Bridge near Itzehoe in northern Germany. The bridge has two spans, the first one was constructed in 3 years time, the second span in 6 years, while being identical. 

Another example is the Talbrücke Nuttlar (A46) west of Brilon. Construction time is estimated at 7 - 8 years, approximately 5 years longer than it took to build similar briges in the 1970s. The 1.6 km Tunnel Neuhof (A66) near Fulda requires 9 years of construction. To compare, the construction of the PPP Fehmarn Belt Tunnel (18.5 km) takes just 6 years. Then the government-funded conversion of B404 to A23 south of Kiel (6 kilometers) requires 5.5 years of construction time, much more than a similar project in other countries would require. There are numerous examples of construction works being at a very slow pace when compared internationally.


----------



## verreme

^^ We also have plenty of examples of PPP projects getting built way faster in Spain. Building a second carriageway of the entire 150 kilometers of C-25, including several large viaducts and long tunnels in a very complicate terrain, took just 2 years. Such large government-funded projects take way longer to see completion.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Then the government-funded conversion of B404 to A23 south of Kiel (6 kilometers)


A21 .

The key benefit of PPP is a shorter construction time and consequential lower economic damage.


----------



## Festin

Wouldn't it just be easier to put some extra tax on the fuel? This way roads that are being used most will also get payed most.

Getting 10-days vignette is just stupid, for people just driving through it would be better to have 1 day vignette.

But by all countries in EU I think germany is the best on. They dont have tolls like the scandinavians, you dont need to buy vignette and you dont "putarinas", road tolls where you need to wait in line to pay for the autobahn. 
Worst thing ever created...
Neither do they have ridicules speed limits..

And if any country have the right to charge you for driving on the autobahn, it is germany.


----------



## KingNick

Kampflamm said:


> Austria overcharges foreigners with their short term toll stickers (yes, everybody pays and if an Austrian wants to but a 10 day sticker he'll pay the same price as anyone else but we all know the idea behind it). I can understand some people getting pissed off but hearing complaints from countries that have been using similar schemes for years is just heartwarming.


Of course we overcharge with the € 8,30 for a 10 day vignette. What an outrage!

To put it into perspective:

Brenner - Trento (138 km) € 10.


----------



## KingNick

thun said:


> Well, it's the ADAC. The bullshit can't be ridiculous enough for them not to claim it if they could use it to argue against rising costs for motorists.


Which just highlights the apparent lie that such a toll would not be an extra financial burden for German motorists. Of course it would since you can't lower the road tax by the toll amount. If you do this, you'll end up generating less revenues as a state, since not everybody is going to buy the stickers (Just think about families with two or more cars. They all pay road tax, but most definitely not all cars will be equipped with a vignette.). And as I understand it, under German law, it is not allowed to grant a tax credit only for those buying the vignette.

So in order to not come up short in revenues, the toll amount would have to be higher than the tax break on the road tax.


----------



## Kampflamm

KingNick said:


> Of course we overcharge with the € 8,30 for a 10 day vignette. What an outrage!


Most foreigners who cross the country once a year have to fork over an annualized price of €310 while 1 year users (i.e. most likely Austrians) only have to pay €82.50. Hardly fair. hno:


----------



## volodaaaa

Penn's Woods said:


> None of my business (and veering off-topic), but surely it's possible to have peace without the EU....


I agree, but not on the way towards nationalism, protectionism and discrimination. It would lead only to more and more conflicts. As I've told before. Germany has the *right* to charge their motorways, no doubt about it - they have perhaps the great motorway network in the world, either in terms of condition or accessibility. But you just can't charge any service according to the residence of customer. 

I still hope, this decision is based only on populism of some stupid politicians. 

Btw. in many countries, foreigners' (and eventually occasional) trips are charged by disadvantageous price in short period. (e.g. weekly sticker is far expensive than annual if we re-calculate it to price per day). E.g. in 

Austria: 
10-day sticker = 8,30 € (0,83 €/day) 
annual sticker = 80,60 € (0,22 €/day).

Hungary
weekly payment = 10,61 € (1,51 €/day)
annual payment = 153,23 € (0,41 €/day)

Slovenia
weekly sticker = 15 € (2,14 € /day)
annual sticker = 95 € (0,26 € /day)

Slovakia
10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
annual sticker = 50 € (0,13 € / day)

Czech republic 
10-day sticker = 11,9 € (1,19 € /day)
annual sticker = 57,7 € (0,15 € / day)

Germany (proposed)
10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
annual sticker = 100 € (0,27 € /day)

According to my experiences (due to commuting, regular business trips, etc.) domestic drivers always purchase the annual stickers (which are several times cheaper per day) whereas foreign drivers (mostly transit) choose the short-period stickers, which are expensive per day. 
Germany has really quality motorway network, the 10-day sticker could undoubtedly costs at least 25 € (2,5 € a day). The effect would be the same, it would not be discriminative at all and the whole implementation would be cheaper because of simplicity. IMHO much better solution.


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: what is the current status of B-50 and Höschemoselbrück projects? It's been several months since I last read something about it.,


Hochmoselbrücke . No news b/c it is a common German construction. The viaduct will be u/c until 2016 (or even later).


----------



## Festin

volodaaaa said:


> I agree, but not on the way towards nationalism, protectionism and discrimination. It would lead only to more and more conflicts. As I've told before. Germany has the *right* to charge their motorways, no doubt about it - they have perhaps the great motorway network in the world, either in terms of condition or accessibility. But you just can't charge any service according to the residence of customer.
> 
> I still hope, this decision is based only on populism of some stupid politicians.
> 
> Btw. in many countries, foreigners' (and eventually occasional) trips are charged by disadvantageous price in short period. (e.g. weekly sticker is far expensive than annual if we re-calculate it to price per day). E.g. in
> 
> Austria:
> 10-day sticker = 8,30 € (0,83 €/day)
> annual sticker = 80,60 € (0,22 €/day).
> 
> Hungary
> weekly payment = 10,61 € (1,51 €/day)
> annual payment = 153,23 € (0,41 €/day)
> 
> Slovenia
> weekly sticker = 15 € (2,14 € /day)
> annual sticker = 95 € (0,26 € /day)
> 
> Slovakia
> 10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
> annual sticker = 50 € (0,13 € / day)
> 
> Czech republic
> 10-day sticker = 11,9 € (1,19 € /day)
> annual sticker = 57,7 € (0,15 € / day)
> 
> Germany (proposed)
> 10-day sticker = 10 € (1 € / day)
> annual sticker = 100 € (0,27 € /day)
> 
> According to my experiences (due to commuting, regular business trips, etc.) domestic drivers always purchase the annual stickers (which are several times cheaper per day) whereas foreign drivers (mostly transit) choose the short-period stickers, which are expensive per day.
> Germany has really quality motorway network, the 10-day sticker could undoubtedly costs at least 25 € (2,5 € a day). The effect would be the same, it would not be discriminative at all and the whole implementation would be cheaper because of simplicity. IMHO much better solution.


It is a joke all of it. You will end up putting vignettes on the windows that you cant see the road...


Is not the most simple thing to do, like Hungary? Register on their server and you do not need any vignette. I think you also can do it from home.


If germany decides for the vignette system, they must make a special transit one.


----------



## volodaaaa

Festin said:


> It is a joke all of it. You will end up putting vignettes on the windows that you cant see the road...
> 
> 
> Is not the most simple thing to do, like Hungary? Register on their server and you do not need any vignette. I think you also can do it from home.
> 
> 
> If germany decides for the vignette system, they must make a special transit one.


Okay, I am sorry for writing sticker in my post, but let's talk about e-vignette or whatever electronic system.


----------



## 909

For those interested, a special newspaper has been released regarding the 2x2 widening of the E233 between Meppen (A31) and Cloppenburg (A1) in Lower Saxony, close to the Dutch border. The paper is written in both German and Dutch and is available in PDF format. In addition to it, there is also a flyer available in both German and Dutch.


----------



## KingNick

Kampflamm said:


> Most foreigners who cross the country once a year have to fork over an annualized price of €310 while 1 year users (i.e. most likely Austrians) only have to pay €82.50. Hardly fair. hno:


That is hardly an argument, because if that would be discrimination (we already learned in this thread that Austria is among the cheapest in all of Europe) any form of price reduction for long term tickets would be discrimination. How come, I as an Austrian can't get the weekly pass - for let's say MVG - on the same daily rate as the annual pass? Tourists are more likely to be affected by that. It would never occur to me that I am somewhat treated in a bad way because of that.

Probably you need to face the fact that the popular German myth of evil Austrians ripping off poor German tourists is simply not true.


----------



## Road_UK

There are a lot of complaints of people having to pay extra tolls at for example Brenner, Arlberg and Tauern not only by Germans but also Italians. Right, G. ?


----------



## Wilhem275

Well, yes, but there is a general reason: people love to complain


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> There are a lot of complaints of people having to pay extra tolls at for example Brenner, Arlberg and Tauern not only by Germans but also Italians. Right, G. ?


Am I G.? 
Last time I drove the Arlbergtunnel I had to pay twice - there was so much wind a 5 euro bill just got stripped from my hand and flew over the motorway. Had it been a 10, I would have set off in pursuit.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



MichiH said:


> - 2nd December: *B15n AS Neufahrn to AS Ergoldsbach* (4-laned)


- 4th December: *B179 Königs Wusterhausen bypass* (2nd stage; 3.8km; plan approval order: September 2009; groundbreaking: April 2010; 10 million €; project page; OSM)

- 13th December: *B101 Luckenwalde bypass*



MichiH said:


> The last section of the *B101 Luckenwalde bypass* will be opened on 13th December 2013 (circa 5.5km; OSM). Another part of the southern bypass was already opened in August 2012 (3.3km; OSM). The total costs for both southern sections are 20 million €. The plan approval order was passed in July 2009. The construction was started in September 2010. The B101 features 1x2 lanes with a partial third lane.


- 16th December: *B96 Bautzen bypass* (2nd stage; 4.4km; groundbreaking: May 2010; 32 million € (stage 1+2); project page; OSM)

- 20th December: *B178 AS Obercunnersdorf to AS Niederoderwitz*



MichiH said:


> The construction of *section 3.2* started directly subsequent to section 3.1 completion (OSM). It is announced to be finished in late 2013, probably in October 2013. This 3-laned section has a length of 10.2km and ends at AS _Niederoderwitz_ (S128).


The B486 _Offenthal_ bypass (OSM), B58 _Büderich_ bypass (OSM), B32 _Bad Saulgau_ bypass (3rd stage; OSM) and the B57 _Baesweiler_ bypass (2nd stage; OSM) are also announced to be opened in December 2013. In addition some projects were announced to be completed in late 2013 but they are probably postponed.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

With motorway vingettes won't lots of people simply shunpike and use normal roads or would all cars have to have one?


----------



## Suburbanist

DanielFigFoz said:


> With motorway vingettes won't lots of people simply shunpike and use normal roads or would all cars have to have one?


For residents, it would make no sense to forego a vignette and then use only local roads.

For visitors, maybe those driving short sectors near borders might use local roads, for anyone driving cross-country the € 10 is worth more than time that would be lost on local roads, like crossing the Rhürghbeit on city streets :dunno:


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> For residents, it would make no sense to forego a vignette and then use only local roads.


I don't agree. There are a lot of regions in Germany far away from Autobahns. I know some people (especially women) who don't drive on Autobahns at all. Many people use their car only for short distances (<=30km). Especially families with more than one car would use a vignette only for one car (but not for the wife's shopping car). That means the toll revenue would be less than expected and if these people once anyhow have to drive a longer distance they would avoid the Autobahn because they have no vignette.

I think Germany will not launch a car toll within the next 4 years but the truck toll for B roads which is also part of the preliminary coalition agreement will be a much better way to increase the toll revenue (~2.3 billion €/year). I hope it will be directly used for road infrastructure.


----------



## Suburbanist

I read somewhere that (then) West Germany had a plan to put every village or town within maximum 40km distance of the nearest Autobahn in the 1980s, but after reunification money had to be used to bring Eastern German roads up to par.


----------



## JackFrost

^^i think germany is close to that goal already, since the farthermost town nowadays from an autoban exit is salzwedel (in sachsen-anhalt) with "only" 60 kilometers.


----------



## MichiH

Preliminary coalition agreement: http://www.spd.de/linkableblob/112790/data/20131127_koalitionsvertrag.pdf. The SPD members have to agree. They can vote until 12th December.



> Page 9: Diesem Ziel dient auch eine Ausweitung der LKW-Maut sowie eine europarechtskonforme PKW-Maut, mit der wir Halter von nicht in Deutschland zugelassenen PKW an der Finanzierung zusätzlicher Ausgaben für das Autobahnnetz beteiligen wollen, ohne im Inland zugelassene Fahrzeuge höher als heute zu belasten... Page 40/41: Die bestehende LKW-Maut wird auf alle Bundesstraßen ausgeweitet. Die LKW-Maut wird – unter Berücksichtigung der Ergebnisse des neuen Wegekostengutachtens – weiter entwickelt. Orientierungspunkte hierbei können sein: die Tonnage, das Netz, externe Kosten. Wir stellen sicher, dass die Netto-Einnahmen aus der Nutzerfinanzierung ohne Abstriche in die Verkehrsinfrastruktur investiert werden. Zur zusätzlichen Finanzierung des Erhalts und des Ausbaus unseres Autobahnnetzes werden wir einen angemessenen Beitrag der Halter von nicht in Deutschland zugelassenen PKW erheben (Vignette) mit der Maßgabe, dass kein Fahrzeughalter in Deutschland stärker belastet wird als heute. Die Ausgestaltung wird EU-rechtskonform erfolgen. Ein entsprechendes Gesetz soll im Verlauf des Jahres 2014 verabschiedet werden...





> Page 9: This goal is also an extension of the truck toll and a car toll which is compliant with European law. We want to participate vehicle owners of not registered in Germany car to the financing of the additional investments on the autobahn network, without burdening domestically registered vehicles higher than today... Page 40/41: The existing truck toll will be extended to all federal roads (B roads). The truck toll will be further developed in consideration of the results of the new infrastructure costs expertise. Points of reference in this case may be: the tonnage, the network, external costs. We make sure that the user financed net revenue will be invested without compromising in transport infrastructure. For additional funding for the preservation and expansion of our Autobahn network the vehicle owners of not registered in Germany cars will be adequate contributed (vignette) with the proviso that no vehicle owner in Germany is more charged than today. The definition will be carried out compliant to EU law. A corresponding law shall be adopted during the year 2014 ...


----------



## Road_UK

Well, at least you live along among one of the finest motorways in Germany. Now that they've nearly completed all the roadworks, the A3 is the best route to travel between Austria and NRW. A lot better than that pig bastard swine of a A8...


----------



## Stahlsturm

Road_UK said:


> Now that they've nearly completed all the roadworks, the A3 is the best route to travel between Austria and NRW. A lot better than that pig bastard swine of a A8...


Yeah, about that... They are planning to start widening the A 3 to 3 lanes in each direction between Kreuz Regensburg and Neutraubling so expect further delays around here for another decade. Traffic around Regensburg (both on the A 3 and especially the A 93) is a complete, unregulated mess.

Now they've built an Eastern detour and instead of making it 2x2 and with interchanges it's a regular country road that can't handle the existing traffic. The planners around here deserve being beaten to death with a wet towel... *grrrrrr*


----------



## Road_UK

Well, A3 for me starts at Nürnberg. I'm only in the Regensburg area when travelling from Calais to mainland Austria, so no problems there


----------



## cinxxx

Stahlsturm said:


> Yeah, about that... They are planning to start widening the A 3 to 3 lanes in each direction between Kreuz Regensburg and Neutraubling so expect further delays around here for another decade. Traffic around Regensburg (both on the A 3 and especially the A 93) is a complete, unregulated mess.
> 
> Now they've built an Eastern detour and instead of making it 2x2 and with interchanges it's a regular country road that can't handle the existing traffic. The planners around here deserve being beaten to death with a wet towel... *grrrrrr*


What Eastern detour? Do you mean the Osttangente?

I know every time I drove Regensburg-Ingolstadt, the traffic was slow unitl A93. The other way around it was better. I also went on some local roads, only to avoid stop and go, wasn't really quicker though, because of jams in Regensburg and area.
http://goo.gl/maps/jnIHw or http://goo.gl/maps/mmgpC


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> Well, at least you live along among one of the finest motorways in Germany. Now that they've nearly completed all the roadworks, the A3 is the best route to travel between Austria and NRW. A lot better than that pig bastard swine of a A8...





Road_UK said:


> Well, A3 for me starts at Nürnberg.


:? So you are talking about "my A3" _Aschaffenburg_-_Würzburg_(-_Fürth_/_Erlangen_). Only 53km feature 2x3. About 120km are still 2x2. That's far away from completion! Even the missing 41km b/n AB and WÜ will not be completed until 2020 (or 2025).

Edit: Sorry, you are usually driving at night, aren't you? Driving on the A3 is absolutely great at night (200+) .


----------



## MichiH

*A94 München - Passau*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> - The construction of the _*Lappachtalbrücke*_ (OSM) started last week. The viaduct has a length of 287m and costs 14 million €. It is located on the *A94 between AS Lengdorf and AS Dorfen*. The PPP bidding for building the entire A94 from AS _Pastetten_ to AS _Heldenstein_ is announced to be probably started in 2015 :nuts:.
> 
> 
> 
> The PPP was tendered, see press release. Contract time: 30 years. Construction time: 2016-2019. Length of road to be built: 33km. Length of road to be operated: 77km. See also tender.
Click to expand...

There are four candidates. They will probably be asked in May 2014 to deliver a practical bid until late 2014. The PPP contract shall be placed in late 2015.


----------



## Road_UK

I travel both day and night, and I actually quite like the 2x2 bit with overtaking lorries. To me it's a nice change of pace before blasting after the Aschaffenburg tunnel again. 

The Stuttgart route is way too much of a drain to me, with roadworks, congestion, slow speeds etc etc.


----------



## MichiH

*B179 Königs Wusterhausen bypass*



MichiH said:


> - 4th December: *B179 Königs Wusterhausen bypass* (2nd stage; 3.8km; plan approval order: September 2009; groundbreaking: April 2010; 10 million €; project page; OSM)


The bypass was opened according to plan. The costs have rised from 10 (2010) to 13 (2013) million €, see press release.


----------



## MichiH

*http://www.bmvbs.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pressemitteilungen/2013/249-muecke-b179-koenigswusterhausen.html*



MichiH said:


> The A72 from Chemnitz to Leipzig is a new Autobahn in Saxony. The future road will be equipped with 2 lanes in each direction plus hard shoulders and will have a length of about 62km.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The 8th section (5.2) from *AS Rötha to AK Leipzig (A38)* has a length of 7.2km (OSM). The plan approval procedure was started in 2011, its end is estimated for 2013. Here does already exist a 4-laned road.


The plan approval order for the last A72 section was recently passed. The Saxony Minster of Transport hopes for funding in 2014 by the Federal Government, see press release.


----------



## MichiH

*A94 Lappachbrücke*



Pascal20a said:


> Does anybody have pics of the A94 in construction?






Source: PNP.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*

- 13th December: *B51 Besseringen bypass* (3.6km; plan approval order: August 2009; groundbreaking June 2011; 27 million €; OSM)

- 13th December: *B486 Offenthal bypass* (3.4km; plan approval order: May 2009; groundbreaking December 2009; 12 million €; OSM). The predicted AADT on the through road is under 10,000 vehicles per day (more than 20,000 less than today).



MichiH said:


> - 13th December: *B101 Luckenwalde bypass*
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The last section of the *B101 Luckenwalde bypass* will be opened on 13th December 2013 (circa 5.5km; OSM). Another part of the southern bypass was already opened in August 2012 (3.3km; OSM). The total costs for both southern sections are 20 million €. The plan approval order was passed in July 2009. The construction was started in September 2010. The B101 features 1x2 lanes with a partial third lane.
> 
> 
> 
> - 16th December: *B96 Bautzen bypass* (2nd stage; 4.4km; groundbreaking: May 2010; 32 million € (stage 1+2); project page; OSM)
> 
> - 20th December: *B178 AS Obercunnersdorf to AS Niederoderwitz*
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The construction of *section 3.2* started directly subsequent to section 3.1 completion (OSM). It is announced to be finished in late 2013, probably in October 2013. This 3-laned section has a length of 10.2km and ends at AS _Niederoderwitz_ (S128).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The B486 _Offenthal_ bypass (OSM), B58 _Büderich_ bypass (OSM), B32 _Bad Saulgau_ bypass (3rd stage; OSM) and the B57 _Baesweiler_ bypass (2nd stage; OSM) are also announced to be opened in December 2013. In addition some projects were announced to be completed in late 2013 but they are probably postponed.
Click to expand...

- 20th December: *B70 Wettringen bypass* (6.8km; plan approval order: February 2010; groundbreaking: September 2010; 20 million €; OSM). Predicted AADT on bypass: 10,000 vehicles/day.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A31 Emstunnel*

Workers accidentally bored through the floor of the Ems Tunnel (near Leer) during renovations, causing the tunnel to leak 500 liters of water per minute. They are now figuring out how to stop the water from pouring into the tunnel.

The Ems Tunnel is a twin-tube immersed tube tunnel under the Ems River. It opened to traffic in 1989. There is no additional impact on traffic due to this leak, because the tube was already closed for renovations.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Workers accidentally bored through the floor of the Ems Tunnel (near Leer) during renovations, causing the tunnel to leak 500 liters of water per minute. They are now figuring out how to stop the water from pouring into the tunnel.


I'm glad I'm not the supervisor there... :cripes: icard:


----------



## Stahlsturm

Fargo Wolf said:


> I'm glad I'm not the supervisor there... :cripes: icard:


Would you beat them to death with a wet towel ?


----------



## Stahlsturm

cinxxx said:


> What Eastern detour? Do you mean the Osttangente?


No, I mean the newly built "Pilsen Allee" which connects the "Osttangente" on the northern bank of the Donau with the B 16 near Wenzenbach. It creates a new eastern bypass for Regensburg.


----------



## Agnette

Emstunnel in my carvideo (@2:35)


----------



## tunnel owl

Stahlsturm said:


> Would you beat them to death with a wet towel ?


Obviously the best and easiest thing to do as the tunnel is already wet:lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

How is the status of the final short gap on A66 near Neuhöf (south of Fulda)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It is delayed to September 2014.

I remember the first trip I took with my current car in August 2008, I drove all of A45 & A66. It was already under construction then (evidently it's been under construction since October 2005).


----------



## Fargo Wolf

Stahlsturm said:


> Would you beat them to death with a wet towel ?





tunnel owl said:


> Obviously the best and easiest thing to do as the tunnel is already wet:lol:


But we don't have any beach towels to use...hno: Nor do we have any cute girls for a wet T-shirt contest either...icard:

Come to think of it, we didn't even get a funny reply from Chris, either.


----------



## MichiH

*A5 Baden-Baden - Offenburg*



MichiH said:


> The sections 5, 6 and 7 will be opened 2x3 next week. Section 1-4 will be opened 2x3 until early 2014. A short part of section 8 will be relocated on both carriagesway (2x2) in mid November 2013.


Section 5-7 are in service since 27th November 2013. Section 1-4 are 2x3 since 10th December 2013. Section 9 is already 3-laned towards _Freiburg_ (but not towards _Baden-Baden_).


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Grabow*



MichiH said:


> ^^ New pics taken last summer are red marked on the map.


New pics (taken b/n 16th and 23rd November 2013) are red marked: http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/Bildergalerie/A14NeubauLudwigslust/A14LudwigslustNeubau.htm.

AK Schwerin:







© Patrick Scholl

Bridge K 38 Weselsdorf - Groß Laasch:







© Patrick Scholl

Bridge for railway crossing:








© Patrick Scholl


----------



## pmaciej7

New viaducts on A13.














































Ecoduct on A11:


----------



## Road_UK

German A8 before the Inntal Dreieck, warning drivers that vignette is now obligatory on the Austrian A12 immediately after Kiefersfelden border. I took this photo yesterday.


----------



## Stahlsturm

Road_UK said:


> German A8 before the Inntal Dreieck, warning drivers that vignette is now obligatory on the Austrian A12 immediately after Kiefersfelden border. I took this photo yesterday.


I'm still amused about the fact that the very same skiing tourists who pay 6 - 8 EUR for a small glass of Jagertee without blinking whine so much about the vignette...


----------



## Heico-M

Stahlsturm said:


> I'm still amused about the fact that the very same skiing tourists who pay 6 - 8 EUR for a small glass of Jagertee without blinking whine so much about the vignette...


Touché! :cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ What bothers me most about all these vignettes and electronic tolls (like Portugal) is not much paying for them, but having to lose time to procure these items, and them have the vignettes stuck on you windshield and having to take them down later.

I'd like EU to have a common electronic toll protocol that allowed one single device to communciate with all sorts of systems (from Area C in Milano to Portuguese and Norwegian tolls to vignettes in Austria and Switzerland to Unmwelt zones in Germany). A small chip/device that has all information on the car (registration, Euro-classification, pollution etc) and that can be read without slowing down so that it just deals with all sorts of payment.

The Unmweltplakket is quite a hassle for non-German speaking drivers, if it is your first time: not many fuel stations have them, and locations that do have them are often located on car shops where people have a hard time reading foreign registration documents to give you the proper green sticker. Once it took me more than one hour to sort it out on the periphery of Berlin. I didn't mind the € 7 they charged me as much as finding the place, communicating with great difficult while they were trying to understand Dutch registration plates etc.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I had no problem with my Italian car at TÜV in Munich. The lady didn't speak english but in 5 minutes all was done.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I guess you are speaking German


----------



## Heico-M

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What bothers me most about all these vignettes and electronic tolls (like Portugal) is not much paying for them, but having to lose time to procure these items, and them have the vignettes stuck on you windshield and having to take them down later.
> 
> I'd like EU to have a common electronic toll protocol that allowed one single device to communciate with all sorts of systems (from Area C in Milano to Portuguese and Norwegian tolls to vignettes in Austria and Switzerland to Unmwelt zones in Germany). A small chip/device that has all information on the car (registration, Euro-classification, pollution etc) and that can be read without slowing down so that it just deals with all sorts of payment.
> 
> The Unmweltplakket is quite a hassle for non-German speaking drivers, if it is your first time: not many fuel stations have them, and locations that do have them are often located on car shops where people have a hard time reading foreign registration documents to give you the proper green sticker. Once it took me more than one hour to sort it out on the periphery of Berlin. I didn't mind the € 7 they charged me as much as finding the place, communicating with great difficult while they were trying to understand Dutch registration plates etc.


Germans would fear surveillance by authorities. The on-board-unit would register each and every movement of your vehicle and transmit it to a central office. The state would have access to your movement profile and that is conradictive to the German citizens' view of living in a free country.


----------



## Suburbanist

Heico-M said:


> Germans would fear surveillance by authorities. The on-board-unit would register each and every movement of your vehicle and transmit it to a central office. The state would have access to your movement profile and that is conradictive to the German citizens' view of living in a free country.


Bogus concerns. You could have fixed reading points. You could have an open-source standard that many vendors can develop infochips from. 

Finally, and most importantly, virtually every new car post-2005 likely already has that information stored on a much more insecure form, especially if your car has some embedded navigational system. If you have a cell phone turned on while driving (even not using it at all), you can be tracked much easier than some infochip system could. There are also cameras everywhere, and OCR capabilities are large these days.

I'm not dismissing privacy concerns, just staying paranoia about infochips on cars is a misguided reaction because there are much more ample data-collection channels already in place.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It looks like Germany can form a stable coalition of CDU + SPD. I hope we'll see some more funding towards roads, the _Koalitionsvertrag_ was not very specific about that, apart from expanding the truck tolls and channeling all funding towards "traffic" (which likely also includes rail and water projects).


----------



## MichiH

*A100 Berlin inner ring road*



MichiH said:


> The *16th section* from AS _Grenzallee_ to AS _Am Treptower Park_ has urgent demand. It is 3.2km long and the calculated costs account about 477 million € (federal due).
> The 3.1km long *17th section* from AS _Am Treptower Park_ to AS _Frankfurter Allee_ (B1/B5) has further demand with planning rights. Preliminary works are already u/c in context with the construction of railstation _Ostkreuz_ (east junction). OSM.


The costs for the 17th section were estimated with 286.3 million € in 1999. The calculation was recently updated. The estimated costs are 531.2 million €.


----------



## MichiH

*Happened openings*



MichiH said:


> - 13th December: *B51 Besseringen bypass* (3.6km; plan approval order: August 2009; groundbreaking June 2011; 27 million €; OSM)


The B51 _Besseringen_ bypass was opened. The costs are 27.2 million €, see press release. The road contains a 200m and a 300m long viaduct.



MichiH said:


> - 13th December: *B486 Offenthal bypass* (3.4km; plan approval order: May 2009; groundbreaking December 2009; 12 million €; OSM). The predicted AADT on the through road is under 10,000 vehicles per day (more than 20,000 less than today).


The B486 _Offenthal_ bypass was opened, see press release (2).



MichiH said:


> - 13th December: *B101 Luckenwalde bypass*
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The last section of the *B101 Luckenwalde bypass* will be opened on 13th December 2013 (circa 5.5km; OSM). Another part of the southern bypass was already opened in August 2012 (3.3km; OSM). The total costs for both southern sections are 20 million €. The plan approval order was passed in July 2009. The construction was started in September 2010. The B101 features 1x2 lanes with a partial third lane.
Click to expand...

The southern section of the B101 _Luckenwalde_ bypass is also in service now. The costs are 22 million €, see press release. The entire 17km long bypass costed 53 million €, see another press release. The additionalplan approval order for the last missing B101 section (*Thyrow bypass*; 5km; 2+2 with hard shoulders; first plan approval order was passed in June 2011 and is currently be updated due to a compromise with a complainer; OSM) is announced for 2014.



MichiH said:


> The B32 _Bad Saulgau_ bypass (3rd stage; OSM) is also announced to be opened in December 2013.


The B32 _Bad Saulgau_ bypass was opened on 13th December 2013, see press release.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



MichiH said:


> - 16th December: *B96 Bautzen bypass* (2nd stage; 4.4km; groundbreaking: May 2010; 32 million € (stage 1+2); project page; OSM)
> 
> - 20th December: *B178 AS Obercunnersdorf to AS Niederoderwitz*
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The construction of *section 3.2* started directly subsequent to section 3.1 completion (OSM). It is announced to be finished in late 2013, probably in October 2013. This 3-laned section has a length of 10.2km and ends at AS _Niederoderwitz_ (S128).
> 
> 
> 
> - 20th December: *B70 Wettringen bypass* (6.8km; plan approval order: February 2010; groundbreaking: September 2010; 20 million €; OSM). Predicted AADT on bypass: 10,000 vehicles/day.
Click to expand...

- 20th December: *B68 Badbergen bypass* (3.2km; plan approval order: September 2009; complain was rejected; groundbreaking: August 2012; OSM; project page)



MichiH said:


> The B58 _Büderich_ bypass (OSM) and the B57 _Baesweiler_ bypass (2nd stage; OSM) are also announced to be opened in December 2013. In addition some projects were announced to be completed in late 2013 but they are probably postponed.


The B58 _Büderich_ bypass was announced to be opened on 15th December but it is postponed due to guardrails and signposts are not available at present. The bypass will be opened in early 2014.

The B57 _Baesweiler_ bypass should be opened until late January 2014 (according to the contract).


----------



## MichiH

*B56 Düren bypass*



MichiH said:


> The groundbreaking ceremony for the *B56 eastern Düren bypass* will be on 10th December 2013. The part north of the B264 features 2x2 lanes (OSM), the southern part features 1x2 lanes (OSM). The total length is 6.6km.
> The plan approval order was passed in September 2010 but challenged. The complaint was withdrawn on 6th November 2013. Predicted 2020 AADT: 25,000 vehicles per day. Construction costs: 23 million € (2009); 30 million € (2012). 3 million € are funded through the infrastructure speedup program II of the Federal Government.


The B56 _Düren_ bypass is u/c now, see press release. It will be completed in 2017. Cost calculation 2013: 33.4 million €.


----------



## MichiH

The *A45 Lützelbach viaduct* (opened in 1967; OSM; length: 270m; height: 48m) will be replaced until early 2017. The groundbreaking ceremony happened on 13th December 2013. Costs: 39.5 million €. AADT: 50,000 vehicles per day (22% trucks). Predicted AADT 2025: 70,000. The new viaduct will feature 2x3 lanes plus hard shoulders. See press release (2).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They are quite busy with bypasses 

Is the Büderich bypass a 4-lane bypass? Google Earth shows some bridges that appear to be over 20 meters wide.

Let's hope they build the Wesel bypass as well, they've built a nice new cable-stayed bridge across the river, but all traffic still has to go through the city.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is the Büderich bypass a 4-lane bypass? Google Earth shows some bridges that appear to be over 20 meters wide.


I am not sure but I think at least the eastern part up to the L460 is 4-laned (I've unfortunately not found any information since 2009).



ChrisZwolle said:


> Let's hope they build the Wesel bypass as well, they've built a nice new cable-stayed bridge across the river, but all traffic still has to go through the city.


The plan approval procedure for the section b/n Rhine bridge and B70 (3.7km; 2x2; OSM) was started in fall 2011. The order was announced for 2013 but the hearing was as recently as in October 2013.

The existing B58 is planned to be upgraded b/n B70 and A3 (5.4km; 2x2; OSM) but it has only further demand within the BVWP 2003.


----------



## Suburbanist

Any recent updates on the final A71 gap between ERfurt and Sangerhausen?


----------



## MichiH

^^ No. The missing 11.4km section b/n _Etzleben_ and _Sömmerda_ will be completed until late 2014 (OSM).


----------



## agathodaimon

*english*



g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I had no problem with my Italian car at TÜV in Munich. The lady didn't speak english but in 5 minutes all was done.


It´s suprise for me, because according me experince a lot of people in germany speak english well.


----------



## Road_UK

agathodaimon said:


> It´s suprise for me, because according me experince a lot of people in germany speak english well.


Better than you? 

Anyway, most educated Germans do speak English, but not the lower class ones.


----------



## Suburbanist

Many Germans speak English. Problem is that the vocabulary around details of a registration document is not that common, and also people working on car shops are not usually the ones with university degrees etc.


----------



## Road_UK

Not only people with university degrees speak English, Suburby...


----------



## MichiH

^^ Germans have to learn English at school but there are a lot Germans who don't use their English. Thus many Germans understand English but cannot converse - especially about specific stuff (I've not used English at all for more than 10 years after school... In addition I am not talented and I was very lazy at school).


----------



## Road_UK

I find Italians the worst English - speakers in the whole of Europe.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Well, I will be in Italy next week. I will travel with a guy from US. He was complaning about the English of one of our Italian colleagues a couple of days ago. I answered that I think his English is good - much better than mine. But my US co-worker disagreed that my English is much better than the English of our Italian friend...


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ MichiH, your written English is very good! You write correctly save for a very occasional vocabulary issue.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ MichiH, your written English is very good! You write correctly save for a very occasional vocabulary issue.


Yes, he writes very correctly safe for a very occasional vocabulary issue, whatever the **** that means :lol:


----------



## MichiH

^^ Thanks, but writing is not speaking - I can look up missing vocabulary . But it is getting better by using .


----------



## cinxxx

I think English spoken by Spanish is worse 
Italian speak very melodic and almost every word ends in a vowel.

With Germans I have mixed feelings, some speak very good, including accent and pronunciation, some speak with awful accent and pronunciation, especially "th", "v", "w", and have problems understanding English not spoken like them


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Everyone who travels *often* to or through Germany should know at least some basics of the German language. The problem is not the English skills of Germans but the unwillingness of foreigners to learn German. hno:

The laziest language learner in Europe are definitely the Brits. They expect that everyone abroad is fluent in English but they themselves don´t speak any foreign language. hno:





:applause:


----------



## Road_UK

You obviously haven't met the Russians on holiday yet...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Lovely generalization-fest you're all having....


----------



## Wilhem275

And all so strictly related to German roads :lol:


----------



## MattiG

Road_UK said:


> I find Italians the worst English - speakers in the whole of Europe.


 A bus stops and two obviously Italian men get on. They seat themselves, and engage in animated conversation. The lady sitting behind them ignores their conversation at first, but her attention is galvanized when she hears one of the men say the following: 

"Emma come first. Den I come. Two asses, they come together. I come again. Two asses, they come together again. I pee twice. Then I come once more." 

"You foul-mouthed *** swine," retorted the lady indignantly. "In this country we don't talk about our sex lives in public!" 

"Hey, cool down lady," said the man. "I was only tellin' my friend here how to spell Mississippi."


----------



## Stahlsturm

Road_UK said:


> I find Italians the worst English - speakers in the whole of Europe.


Maybe but most Italians will try to converse with you even in their limited English. Frenchmen won't even if they have a degree in English Literature.


----------



## g.spinoza

In my experience, Italians speak bad English but Germans are not good either. In a different way: when Germans speak English, they are good, pronounciation and all. But there are more Italians speaking English than Germans. A former coworker of mine, German physicist in Italy for 6 months, got by without learning a word in Italian. In Munich I had to at least learn very basic German, English wasn't sufficient.


----------



## Road_UK

Stahlsturm said:


> Maybe but most Italians will try to converse with you even in their limited English. Frenchmen won't even if they have a degree in English Literature.


No. Wrong again. Most French people are tolerant enough to assist you in English, if you at least make an effort to say something French. Even if it's just bonjour. I know, I'm nearly there every day.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Lovely generalization-fest you're all having....


Welcome to Europe.


----------



## g.spinoza

Suburbanist said:


> Many Germans speak English. Problem is that the vocabulary around details of a registration document is not that common, and also people working on car shops are not usually the ones with university degrees etc.


If I go to an office where they issue Umweltplakettes, with car registration documents in one hand and 5 euro in the other, there's not much more to say...


----------



## Stahlsturm

Road_UK said:


> No. Wrong again. Most French people are tolerant enough to assist you in English, if you at least make an effort to say something French. Even if it's just bonjour. I know, I'm nearly there every day.


My (albeit limited experience) is different. The fact that you are English and I'm German may play into this as well. Thank goodness I'm not deterred by this and do travel to France without fear whenever I please, unlike many of my countrymen.  And my French is limited to very basic vocabulary and no grammar whatsoever


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Welcome to Europe.


Yes, but do you speak Frisian? (I realize that doesn't follow....)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

back to German roads please :cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

Are there plans to extend A49 to Marburg?


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> Yes, but do you speak Frisian? (I realize that doesn't follow....)


Answer in the Roadside Rest Area. Deutschland (strassen) über alles in this thread


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not to Marburg, but to A5 near Alsfeld. The new stretch is divided in 3 stretches (VKEs or Verkehrskosteneinheiten / traffic cost units).

* VKE20 Neuental - Schwalmstadt: 11.8 km, U/C since 15/03/2011
* VKE30 Schwalmstadt - Stadtallendorf: 13.3 km
* VKE40 Stadtallendorf - Dreieck Gemünden (A5): 17.5 km

VKE30 and 40 are in planning. The plan approval order of VKE30 was signed in 2012. Signing the p.a.o. of VKE40 was planned for 2012 as well, but I'm not sure whether this actually happened.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The new minister of transport and urban development is Alexander Dobrindt (left). He is the successor of Peter Ramsauer (right). Both are from the Bavarian CSU party.

edit: photo was changed, it now only shows Dobrindt.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A281 Bremen*

MichiH, do you have any idea when the red segment of A281 on this map will open? I believe it was originally planned for December 2013.


----------



## Des

Drove via Ulm to Stuttgart yesterday over the A8, the ausbau between Ulm and Gruibingen is under way on most parts. Especially the first part from exit 62 to exit 61 looks on track to open next year as 2x3.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> MichiH, do you have any idea when the red segment of A281 on this map will open? I believe it was originally planned for December 2013.


The project page has announced 2014 since at least February 2012. It was modified to September 2014 in the meantime (click on "Ausblick").


----------



## MichiH

Des said:


> Drove via Ulm to Stuttgart yesterday over the A8, the ausbau between Ulm and Gruibingen is under way on most parts. Especially the first part from exit 62 to exit 61 looks on track to open next year as 2x3.


The section b/n Temmenhausen and AS Ulm-West will be opened in late 2014 (7.8km; OSM). The section b/n Nellingen and Temmenhausen (6.8km; OSM) will be started in January 2014 and completed until late 2016. See press release (published on 13th December). The westernmost (6.4km; OSM) and the easternmost (1.9km; OSM) sections will probably be completed until late 2018. Project page: > click <.


----------



## MichiH

*A49*



ChrisZwolle said:


> * VKE20 Neuental - Schwalmstadt: 11.8 km, U/C since 15/03/2011
> * VKE30 Schwalmstadt - Stadtallendorf: 13.3 km
> * VKE40 Stadtallendorf - Dreieck Gemünden (A5): 17.5 km
> 
> VKE30 and 40 are in planning. The plan approval order of VKE30 was signed in 2012. Signing the p.a.o. of VKE40 was planned for 2012 as well, but I'm not sure whether this actually happened.


VKE20 will be completed until 2016 or later. The VKE30 plan approval order was passed in January 2012. The complaint was withdrawn in June 2013. The works will begin after completion of VKE20. The plan approval order for VKE40 was passed in May 2012. It is challenged.

Total costs for the three sections (42km): 569 million €, see press release (published on 30th July 2013).


----------



## MichiH

*Happened openings*



MichiH said:


> - 16th December: *B96 Bautzen bypass* (2nd stage; 4.4km; groundbreaking: May 2010; 32 million € (stage 1+2); project page; OSM)


The B96 _Bautzen_ bypass was opened on schedule. The costs are 36 million €. See press release (2). The length of the 2nd section is 2.9km. It contains a 125m long viaduct and a 200m tunnel. The noise barriers have a length of 1km and a height of 4m. The future AADT is 17,600 vehicles/day.



MichiH said:


> - 20th December: *B178 AS Obercunnersdorf to AS Niederoderwitz*
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The construction of *section 3.2* started directly subsequent to section 3.1 completion (OSM). It is announced to be finished in late 2013, probably in October 2013. This 3-laned section has a length of 10.2km and ends at AS _Niederoderwitz_ (S128).
Click to expand...

The B178 _Herrnhut_ bypass was opened last Friday. Costs: 55 million € (funded by ERDF). 31.5km B178 are in service now, see press release. The plan approval procedures for the last two sections are still in progress (5.1km and 5.9km).



MichiH said:


> - 20th December: *B70 Wettringen bypass* (6.8km; plan approval order: February 2010; groundbreaking: September 2010; 20 million €; OSM). Predicted AADT on bypass: 10,000 vehicles/day.


The B70 _Wettringen_ bypass was inaugurated. Costs: 22 million €. AADT on through road: 12,000 vehicles/day. See press release (2).



MichiH said:


> - 20th December: *B68 Badbergen bypass* (3.2km; plan approval order: September 2009; complain was rejected; groundbreaking: August 2012; OSM; project page)


The B68 _Badbergen_ bypass was also opened. Costs: 8.8 million €, see press release (2).


----------



## MichiH

*A3 Würzburg-Nürnberg*



MichiH said:


> The plan approval procedure for section 6 (10.5km from _Aschberg_ to east of AS _Schlüsselfeld_ was started in September 2009.


The plan approval order was recently passed. Estimated costs: 83 million €. Predicted AADT 2025: 72,800 vehicles/day, see press release.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

B88: The new Hochkreisel (english word?) in Jena was opened on 17.12.2013. 

Source

The Autobahn in the background is the A4.


----------



## Alqaszar

Hochkreisel - elevated roundabaout


----------



## MichiH

*Happened openings in 2013*

Time to look back at what has been achieved in Germany this year with motorways and B roads:

New motorways:
*A23* AS Itzehoe-Nord – AS Itzehoe-Mitte (2x2) 1,7km (September 09 to 17.10.2013) - project page – map
*A71* AD Südharz (A38) – AS Artern (2x2) 8,5km (April 07 to 29.04.2013) - project page – map
*A71* AS Artern – AS Heldrungen (2x2) 9,1km (November 08 to 29.04.2013) - project page – map
*A72* AS Rochlitz – AS Frohburg (2x2) 14,5km (June 09 to 09.08.2013) - project page – map
*A72* AS Frohburg – AS Borna-Süd (2x2) 6km (March 10 to 09.08.2013) - project page – map
*A94* Malching (2x2) 5,8km (October 12 to 28.11.2013) - project page – map

Motorway widening:
*A5* südl. AS Baden-Baden – nördl AS Bühl (2x3) 3,6km (March 12 to October 2013) - project page – map
*A5* südl. AS Bühl – nördl. AS Achern (2x3) 5,2km (February 12 to October 2013) - project page – map
*A5* südl. AS Achern – nördl. T+R Renchtal (2x3) 5,5km (December 11 to September 2013) - project page – map
*A10* westl. AS Berlin-Weißensee – östl. AD Schwanebeck (2x3) 4,2km (2010 to November 2013) - project page – map

New expressways:
*B15n* AS Neufahrn – AS Ergoldsbach (2x2) 7,2km (August 09 to 02.12.2013) - project page – map
*B174* Ortsausgang Chemnitz (Gornauer Straße) – Gornau (2x2) 4,7km (December 10 to 19.11.2013) - map

Expressway upgrade (adding 2nd carriageway):
*B27* AS Dußlingen – AS Nehren (2x2) 3,3km (March 12 to 11.09.2013) - project page – map
*B49* Obertiefenbach-Ost – Deponie Beselich (2x2) 0,9km (May 11 to 15.08.2013) - project page – map
*B101* Wiesenhagen – AS Luckenwalde-Nord (2x2) 4,8km (October 10 to 18.03.2013) - project page – map

New B road bypasses:
*B1* Aerzen (2+1) 4,3km (May 09 to 21.11.2013) - project page – map
*B3* AS Altencelle (B214) – AS Westercelle (2+1) 3,2km (June 09 to 20.06.2013) - project page – map
*B13* Lehrberg-Unterheßbach 1,9km (May 12 to 03.06.2013) - map
*B20* AS Furth im Wald-Nord – AS Furth im Wald-Mitte 1,8km (2007 to 05.09.2013) - project page – map
*B29* Schwäbisch Gmünd (Tunnel) 4,1km (August 06 to 25.11.2013) - project page – map
*B32* Bad Saulgau ?km (2009 to 13.12.2013) - map
*B38* Reinheim 4,7km (May 09 to 05.11.2013) - project page – map
*B51* Besseringen (2+1) 3,6km (June 11 to 13.12.2013) - project page – map
*B68* Badbergen 3,2km (August 12 to 20.12.2013) - project page – map
*B83* Hofgeismar 3,2km (September 09 to 08.11.2013) - project page – map
*B70* Wettringen 6,8km (September 10 to 20.12.2013) - map
*B96* Westtangente Bautzen 2,9km (May 10 to 16.12.2013) - project page – map
*B101* AS Luckenwalde-An den Ziegeleien – Kloster Zinna (2+1) ca. 5,5km (September 10 to 13.12.2013) - map
*B176* Pödelwitz – Neukieritzsch 6,8km (May 12 to 18.10.2013) - map
*B178* Obercunnersdorf (S143) – Niederoderwitz (S128) (2+1) 10,2km (November 10 to 20.12.2013) - project page – map
*B179* Königs-Wusterhausen 3,8km (April 10 to 04.12.2013) - project page – map
*B189* Kuhbier 3,6km (January 2013 to 04.11.2013) - map
*B211* Loyerberg 1,4km (November 12 to November 2013) - project page – map
*B246a* Schönebeck 2,7km (March 10 to 27.08.2013) - project page – map
*B260* Dausenau 1,1km (Summer 09 to May 2013) - map
*B301* Hallbergmoos – Ismaning (B388) 7,2km (September 09 to 30.07.2013) - project page – map
*B317* Zollfreistraße (Weil am Rhein – Lörrach) 0,7km (2006 to 04.10.2013) - map
*B486* Offenthal 3,4km (December 09 to 13.12.2013) - project page – map

B road widening:
*B20* AS Arnschwang – AS Weiding (2+1) 3,8km (February 12 to June 2013) - project page – map
*B20* Kienberg – Wolferszell (2+1) 3,3km (April 2013 to 01.10.2013) - project page – map
*B30* AS Biberach-Süd – Appendorf (2+1) 1,2km (October 10 to May 2013) - project page – map
*B31* Löffingen-Mitte (2+1) 2,4km (April 10 to 27.06.2013) - project page – map
*B85* Karmensölden – Schäflohe (2+1) 1,9km (July 12 to 19.09.2013) - project page – map
*B292* Helmstadt-Mitte (L530) – Helmstadt-Nord (2+1) 0,8km (June 12 to August 2013) - map
*B404* Trittau-Nord – Trittau/Grande (2+1) 3,4km (July 2013 to 18.10.2013) - project page – map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If I calculated it correctly, there are 12890 km of Autobahn and 2380 km of Autobahnähnliche Straße by 1/1/14 (combined 15270 km).


----------



## Nexis




----------



## MichiH

Traffic and Accident Data Summary Statistics – Germany (September 2013)

More international stats: > click <.


----------



## MichiH

*AADT*

- Automatic count locations (2000-2012)

- Manual count locations (2010/2005; map 2010)

- Foreigner counting (map 2008)

Private database of AADT 2005/2010 with comparison feature: > click <.
Private map AADT 2010: > click < (more).


----------



## Nexis




----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A44*

https://wirtschaft.hessen.de/presse...gesichertes-baurecht-im-kompletten-oestlichen

The construction of 17 kilometers of A44 is now legally secured, now that complaints against the plan-approval order are withdrawn. It's the segment from Sontra-Nord to Wommen (A4).

Segment VKE50 (Sontra-Nord - Sontra/Ulfen) was not appealed to
Segment VKE60 (Sontra/Ulfen - Wommen) was appealed to, but is now withdrawn.

This means the entire eastern part of A44 is now legally secured and construction could begin if funding comes available.


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*



MichiH said:


> The Federal Administrative Court (BVerwG) has instructed on 30th September that the documents for *A14 section Dolle-Colbitz* must be updated. The effect of a nearby military training ground must be considered. The trial will be on 11th December 2013. The Saxony-Anhalt Minister of Transport noted additional planning efforts b/c new aspects of the current law or regulations, have to be considered in the ongoing procedure again and again, see press release.


The court decision was published on 8th January. The plan approval order (signed in December 2012) is illegal and not executable, see press release.

Explanation: The plan approval order for section Colbitz-Wolmirstedt was also challenged. The section ended 1.5km north of the interchange Colbitz. Thus there were environmental problems with that part ("Stummel") it was excluded from that section in 2011 and moved to the Dolle-Colbitz section. But the environmental problems have not been fixed (completely) thus the Dolle-Colbitz plan approval order is illegal now. The problems can be fixed with an additional plan approval procedure.



> Um die insoweit fehlerhafte Abschnittsbildung zu heilen, hatte das beklagte Landesverwaltungsamt im Jahr 2011 gegenüber dem auch damals klagenden BUND durch Prozessvergleich die Verpflichtung übernommen, die „Stummelstrecke“ aus der Planfeststellung des vorherigen Abschnitts herauszunehmen. Der daraus folgenden Obliegenheit, den betreffenden Teilabschnitt insgesamt in die Planung des Folgeabschnitts zu integrieren, ist das Landesverwaltungsamt aber nicht in vollem Umfang nachgekommen. Vielmehr sind dabei Defizite aufgetreten, die sich vor allem auf die Durchführung der Umweltverträglichkeitsprüfung beziehen. Auch wurde versäumt, Kompensationsmaßnahmen für die mit der „Stummelstrecke“ verbundenen Eingriffe in Natur und Landschaft neu festzusetzen.


The Saxony-Anhalt Ministry of Transport is grateful that the judge have given helpful notes, see press release.



> Andererseits sei er dem Gericht für die intensive Befassung mit den Planungsunterlagen und seine klaren Aussagen dankbar. 'Mit Blick auf die weiteren Autobahnabschnitte haben uns die Richter wichtige Hinweise gegeben und Festlegungen getroffen, die uns dabei helfen werden, die weiteren Planungen zügig voranzubringen', erklärte Webel.


hno: hno: hno: hno:


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## MichiH

The plan approval order for the *B474 Datteln bypass* (4.1km; 17 million €; OSM) is illegal and not executable, see newspaper article. The plan approval procedure was started in August 2005. The order was passed in March 2009. The additional plan approval order was passed in May 2011. It was challenged and the complaints were rejected in January 2013. But the higher court has stopped it now.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So, 9 years of planning flushed down the toilet?


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> So, 9 years of planning flushed down the toilet?


The planning was not started in 2005. It is a long way until a plan approval procedure can be started. An environmental impact study "Umweltverträglichkeitsstudie" and a preliminary design "Vorentwurf" must be done and an approval by the state's and the federal Transport Ministry "Erteilung Gesehen-Vermerk" must be issued prior. The approval by the Federal Transport Ministry takes at minimum about 1 or 2 years.

The B474 plan approval documents can be modified by another additional plan approval procedure (1-2 years).


----------



## cinxxx

Dunno if this was posted here before


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The ministry of transport and urban planning (Bundesministerium für Verkehr, Bau und Stadtentwicklung - BMVBS) has been renamed to Bundesministerium für Verkehr und digitale Infrastruktur (BMVI). 

New homepage: http://www.bmvi.de/

The old www.bmvbs.de also still works.


----------



## MichiH

*A66 Fulda-Frankfurt*

35 pics and 1 video of the new A66 tunnel near Neuhof (to be opened in September 2014).


----------



## Zagor666

Aus der letzten Ausgabe der Motorrad News, ein Urteil des Oberlandesgerichts Koblenz.
"Wer bei 200km/h auf einer tempounbegrenzten Autobahn unschuldig in einen Unfall verwickelt wird trägt 40% Mitschuld"

It means if you are,completely innocent,involved in a accident on a german motorway without a speed llimit with a speed of 200km/h you are 40% guilty :hammer::hammer::hammer:


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## Dantiscum

And that's totally ok. Autobahn is no rally track. Noone is 100% safe with this speed.


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## Heico-M

German motorways have no speed limit, that is true.
But there is a recommended max speed of 130km/h.

Traffic laws state that you always are responsible to adapt your speed to the situation. 

Why do people always think that everything is allowed as long it is not forbidden? Why do people not understand that freedom demands responsibility? :weird:


----------



## Kanadzie

I am not so pessimistic, people driving on Autobahn seem responsible, safety record of the network is excellent compared to similar roads elsewhere in world, who have fixed limits.

Recommended speed as on Autobahn is used frequently in US and Canada on sharp curve warnings and similar, usually will suggest speed of 45 km/h and people go around at 80 or 90 km/h, so 200 in recommended 130 seems fine, and as we see by visiting the nice BRD, it is perfectly fine most of time:cheers:


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## thun

--


----------



## Corvinus

This regulation is, in effect, very simple (and I like it). 
You have the recommended limit of 130km/h, up to which you are "safe" (in terms of "automatic" partial liability in an accident). Then, you are allowed to drive as fast as you judge it reasonable, however, the legal perspective of a partial liability in case of an accident (you are otherwise not responsible for) requires an extra share of cautiousness from those doing significantly more than the 130km/h. 
I say it's sort of a "gentlemen's agreement" regulation. The lawmaker explicitly allows you to exploit your vehicle on the unlimited stretches, but requires a higher share of responsibility from the "stronger" traffic participants, due to the simple fact that high speeds always imply a higher accident risk.

Plus, if you prove that the accident (you are otherwise not responsible for) would also have occurred if you had been driving at 130km/h or less, you can avoid this partial liability due to high speed. But the burden of proof would be on you (which, depending on the case, might be everything from easy to impossible).

I wish more countries adopted the German autobahn speed regulations.


----------



## Kanadzie

I guess German style law is easier to interpret legally, but I am not sure.

For example, what happened in Montana. A man was driving a new Camaro Z28 (Vmax = 265 km/h) at 140 km/h on a freeway with speed limit "reasonable and prudent", and got ticket. Court found that it was vague to ask people to be "reasonable and prudent", as Camaro driver felt his speed was prudent, and police did not, so that the law could not be enforced. Eventually they switched to a fixed limit of 120 km/h, but people frequently drive 200 km/h or more (it is a really wide open place, and ticket is not expensive.)

But German style sounds even more complicated and vague, especially in regards to partial liability. For example, if a car changes lanes and hits you on the side, and you are driving 200 km/h, but the road is straight and long, and, let's say other guy is driving 190, what is going on?

But surely, Germany is a wonderful place to drive on the freeway without the stress of speed checks and highway robbers waiting to steal from you, as is common in the US, Canada or even worse a place like France...


----------



## MichiH

Kanadzie said:


> But surely, Germany is a wonderful place to drive on the freeway without the stress of speed checks and highway robbers waiting to steal from you, as is common in the US, Canada or even worse a place like France...


There are a lot of speed checks on German roads and Autobahns! About 50 percent of the German Autobahn network is limited.


----------



## Heico-M

bewu1 said:


> The new German government is already in place. Are they already known new plans for infrastructure spending, if any ?


Reports say that the new government were going to increase the infrastructure budget by 5 billion euros. I don't know any details as to whether that would be per year or over the 4 years legislation period, neither to what extend the budget will be spent on roads, rail, waterways ...


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think that € 5 billion is per year, the annual Fernstraßen budget is only € 5.8 billion. Even if it is over a governmental period, it would still be a substantial increase.


----------



## Mackem

Is there any progress on the A100 BA16 in Berlin? Have they actually broken ground yet ?


----------



## Pepov

A7 Kassel -> A38 - Very dangerous _strecke_, mainly due to high slopes. One day i spend there 5 hours in traffic jam due to accident.

A3 mentioned above should be upgraded immediately... I often make a shortcut via 505 (which is also pain in the a** - when u get stuck behind a 60 kph truck), and there is always big traffic, even in the night.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Mackem said:


> Is there any progress on the A100 BA16 in Berlin? Have they actually broken ground yet ?


^^
Here are some related news: 

Some BANANAs don´t want to leave their tree house which they constructed over a year ago to "save" the trees in that area of Berlin-Neukölln. They call their tree "Protest-Pappel" (Protest-Poplar) and they plan to block the works on that section as long as possible. :crazy:

Source


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## pmaciej7

Mackem said:


> Is there any progress on the A100 BA16 in Berlin? Have they actually broken ground yet ?


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=110447594&postcount=3588
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=110453648&postcount=3590


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## Mackem

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> Here are some related news:
> 
> Some BANANAs don´t want to leave their tree house which they constructed over a year ago to "save" the trees in that area of Berlin-Neukölln. They call their tree "Protest-Pappel (Protest-Poplar) and they plan to block the works on that section as long as possible. :crazy:
> 
> Source


Another fine British export. In the UK if we ever get round to building a new road we have protesters in trees and in tunnels waiting to be "rescued".


----------



## volodaaaa

Mackem said:


> Another fine British export. In the UK if we ever get round to building a new road we have protesters in trees and in tunnels waiting to be "rescued".


Why have not they tried at least to find a girlfriend?


----------



## Wilhem275

Why should that poor tree suffer so much in its last days on this Earth? :lol:


----------



## Bender

Does anyone know what they are doing at the intersection between A59 and A46 (Düsseldorf South). They have been doing **things** for months but whatever they are doing it's so slow (as always) that I can't figure out what it is.


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## MichiH

^^ The A46 is widened to 2x3 lanes (April 2013 to 2015), see press release.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

volodaaaa said:


> Why have not they tried at least to find a girlfriend?


Maybe they are in the same boat as me. All the girls are taken, not looking, not interested, or lesbian. Just sayin...


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## Kanadzie

Fargo Wolf said:


> Maybe they are in the same boat as me. All the girls are taken, not looking, not interested, or lesbian. Just sayin...


There aren't so many lesbians out there, if you find too many, you are looking in the most wrong of places :lol:


----------



## volodaaaa

Fargo Wolf said:


> Maybe they are in the same boat as me. All the girls are taken, not looking, not interested, or lesbian. Just sayin...


Sorry, I was just kidding...  Perhaps, you have not found the right one yet. 

Btw. sorry for bringing the OT up.


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## Bender

MichiH said:


> ^^ The A46 is widened to 2x3 lanes (April 2013 to 2015), see press release.


Thanks! I don't drive often East towards the A3 so I did not realize they were working on the A46. I thought it was just a change in the intersection itself with the A59.


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## piotr71

*A38, Göttingen - Leipzig*






A38 quiet as usual. I've never experienced larger amount of vehicles on this motorway since they completed last stretch in December 2009.


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## Pepov

I don't understand why many people still choose A2 on their way from Ruhr area to southern Poland instead of this wonderful motorway...


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## ChrisZwolle

*A565 Bonn*

One can better stay away from A565 in Bonn during the summer. There will be only one lane in each direction to replace the dilatation joints on the Rhine River Bridge, between early July and mid-August. The bridge carries 93,000 vehicles per day (a little less during the summer), so it will cause extreme congestion.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> One can better stay away from A565 in Bonn during the summer. There will be only one lane in each direction to replace the dilatation joints on the Rhine River Bridge, between early July and mid-August. The bridge carries 93,000 vehicles per day (a little less during the summer), so it will cause extreme congestion.


A565 is heavily congested even without road works...


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## ChrisZwolle

I've driven A565 just once, this past August, and got stuck in a traffic jam on two locations...


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## no-thing

Pepov said:


> I don't understand why many people still choose A2 on their way from Ruhr area to southern Poland instead of this wonderful motorway...


The A38 mostly winds through hilly landscape. The A2 in contrast is mostly flat and straight like an airport runway.

Additionally you had to take the A44 to the A7, then pass Kassel and go through parts of the Kasseler Berge (Kassel Mountains) including the infamous Werra valley speed traps.


I can very well understand, nobody drives that way


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## MichiH

piotr71 said:


> A38 quiet as usual. I've never experienced larger amount of vehicles on this motorway since they completed last stretch in December 2009.


Right, the A38 has one of the lowest AADT on German Autobahns.

AADT 2010 (source):

AD Drammetal (A7) – AS Friedland (3) *24900* / 4258 (17,1%)
AS Friedland (3) – AS Arenshausen (4) *19300* / 3976 (20,6%)
AS Arenshausen (4) – AS Heilbad Heiligenstadt (5) *19300* / 3976 (20,6%)
AS Heilbad Heiligenstadt (5) – AS Leinefelde-Worbis (6) *15600* / 3385 (21,7%)
AS Leinefelde-Worbis (6) – AS Breitenworbis (7) *21300* / 4580 (21,5%)
AS Breitenworbis (7) – AS Bleicherode (8) *17200* / 3732 (21,7%)
AS Bleicherode (8) – AS Großwechsungen (9) *23600* / 4673 (19,8%)
AS Großwechsungen (9) – AS Werther (10) *24200* / 4985 (20,6%)
AS Werther (10) – AS Nordhausen (11) *20900* / 4305 (20,6%)
AS Nordhausen (11) – AS Heringen (12) *20200* / 4202 (20,8%)
AS Heringen (12) – AS Berga (13) *18000* / 3816 (21,2%)
AS Berga (13) – AS Sangerhausen-Süd (16) *20000* / 4040 (20,2%)
AS Sangerhausen-Süd (16) – AS Eisleben (19) *19700* / 4176 (21,2%)
AS Eisleben (19) – AD Halle-Süd (A143) *21500* / 3935 (18,3%)
AD Halle-Süd (A143) – AS Bad Lauchstädt (23) *20000* / 3560 (17,8%)
AS Bad Lauchstädt (23) – AS Merseburg-Nord (24) *23000* / 3933 (17,1%)
AS Merseburg-Nord (24) – AS Merseburg-Süd (25) *23000* / 4071 (17,7%)
AS Merseburg-Süd (25) – AS Leuna (26) *22300* / 4036 (18,1%)
AS Leuna (26) – AK Rippachtal (A9) *23600* / 4649 (19,7%)
AK Rippachtal (A 9) – AS Lützen (28) *23800* / 3975 (16,7%)
AS Lützen (28) – AS Leipzig-Südwest (29) *23400* / 3931 (16,8%)
AS Leipzig-Südwest (29) – AS Leipzig-Neue Harth (30) *26600* / 4336 (16,3%)
AS Leipzig-Neue Harth (30) – AS Leipzig-Süd (31) *27500* / 4345 (15,8%)
AS Leipzig-Süd (31) – AS Leipzig-Südost (32) *28400* / 4487 (15,8%)
AS Leipzig-Südost (32) – AD Parthenaue (A14) *24800* / 4142 (16,7%)


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## ChrisZwolle

It's not a lot, but not deserted either. 20k on a two-lane road would make in overloaded.


----------



## Des

Small update regarding the tunnel currently being build at the South-West corner of the Munich Mittlerer Ring:



















The actual tunnel looks be build completely but the next year or so will still be necessary to finish the interior of the tunnel, install systems, test and build the on- and off-ramps. 

Once completed it should be a significant improvement for the traffic on the Mittlerer Ring between the A95 and A96.


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## Shenkey

is there any new news on Chiemgaustrasse and Englischer Garten tunnels?


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## Attus

The German government talked today about infrastructure. 
- 5 bn euro additional money will be spent to urgent infrastructural works (i.e. reconstruction of roads and railways that have a very bad state of repair). 
- In the following years the infrastructural budget will be increased but not from general tax incomes but from incomes from users, i.e. road tolls and increasing fuel tax.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Attus said:


> - In the following years the infrastructural budget will be increased but not from general tax incomes but from incomes from users, i.e. road tolls and increasing fuel tax.


Does that mean increasing the fuel tax and truck tolls, or redirecting a larger portion of those existing taxes to infrastructure? German motorists pay about € 50 billion in taxes per year, so that € 5 billion (in how many years?) is not all that impressive compared to the tax revenue.


----------



## CSSR

Any news on the bypass of bad oeynhausen?


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Does that mean increasing the fuel tax and truck tolls, or redirecting a larger portion of those existing taxes to infrastructure? German motorists pay about € 50 billion in taxes per year, so that € 5 billion (in how many years?) is not all that impressive compared to the tax revenue.


- Increasing fuel tax (7 ct/l)
- Expanding truck tolls to Landstrassen (non-motorway roads outside towns)
- Expanding truck tolls to trucks over 7.5t (currently it's 12t) and to buses (excluding public transport)
- PKW-Maut, i.e. road toll for cars. Road tax will be decreased so that a surplus will come from foreigners only. 

However, you mix two separate things. One is 5 bn immediately for urgent infrastructural works (both road and rail). Another thing is to increase the yearly infrastructural budget, using incomes from the sources listed above.


----------



## Suburbanist

CSSR said:


> Any news on the bypass of bad oeynhausen?


I think they opened half of the bypass in November, IIRC. 

Let's wait for MichiH, he knows everything about these projects


----------



## Nexis




----------



## MichiH

CSSR said:


> Any news on the bypass of bad oeynhausen?


No. The first 1.6km section b/n i/c Bad Oeynhausen-North and i/c Dehme should be opened 2x1 in spring 2014. The other 5.3km and 1.9km sections both will probably be opened in 2016.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is it still planned to open the first segment of B50n near Wittlich this year?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, but the latest news was published one year ago (March 2013: estimated opening in summer 2014).


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## MichiH

Attus said:


> The German government talked today about infrastructure.


Yes, they've talked about it. It was a discussion, not a resolution, see press information.



Attus said:


> - 5 bn euro additional money will be spent to urgent infrastructural works (i.e. reconstruction of roads and railways that have a very bad state of repair).


That's only the intention of the coalitions agreement. 5 billion € within the current election period (4 years).



Attus said:


> - In the following years the infrastructural budget *will be increased* but not from general tax incomes but from incomes from users, i.e. road tolls and increasing fuel tax.


Could be increased.... An annual car toll for 50 million € would also generate an income of 2 billion €..... Blablablablablablabla......

The best sentense (joke) of the press information is the last one:



> Für die Fraktion Bündnis 90/Die Grünen brennt das Thema „lichterloh“. Lösungen müssten so schnell wie möglich gefunden werden.
> The Greens said that the problem is very urgent. Solutions must be found as soon as possible.


----------



## thun

There are quite a few. "Clever Tanken" is one afaik


----------



## Des

Shenkey said:


> is there any new news on Chiemgaustrasse and Englischer Garten tunnels?


Yes:



> Erste Abstimmung in Richtung Tunnel
> 
> Vorentscheidung im Stadtrat: Im Planungsausschuss zeichnet sich eine Mehrheit für die Sparvariante am Stau-Knoten Isarring/Ifflandstraße ab - die Variante, die als Übergangslösung bis zum Bau des Tunnels unter dem Ring gedacht ist.
> 
> Geht es nach den Befürwortern eines Autotunnels im Englischen Garten, steht an diesem Mittwoch eine Vorentscheidung an: Dann diskutiert der Planungsausschuss über den Ausbau des Stau-Knotens Isarring/Ifflandstraße - und es zeichnet sich eine klare Mehrheit für die Sparvariante ab, die als Übergangslösung bis zum Bau des Tunnels gedacht ist.
> 
> Verlierer der Debatte wäre dann die SPD, die sich großzügigere Fahrspuren wünscht, damit auf dem Mittleren Ring kein Tempolimit eingerichtet werden muss. Zudem missfällt den Sozialdemokraten die Vorstellung, absichtlich zu Lasten der Autofahrer ein Nadelöhr zu schaffen, nur um den nötigen Druck zum Bau eines Tunnels aufrechtzuerhalten. Setzen sich CSU, Grüne und FDP durch, besteht der Isarring an dieser Stelle künftig nur noch aus Drei-Meter-Spuren.
> 
> Keine Fördergelder, wenn der Verkehr fließt
> "Wird der Isarring komplett ausgebaut, ist der Tunnel mausetot" - dieser Satz des Tunnel-Aktivisten Hermann Grub gilt nach Einschätzung vieler Stadträte weiterhin. Einfach, weil der Freistaat angeblich kein Fördergeld mehr herausrücken würde, wenn der Verkehr erst einmal ordentlich fließt. Dass die Verwaltung beteuert, es sei ohnehin nur eine vergleichsweise geringe Summe für die neue Einfädelspur zu erwarten und keineswegs eine komplette Tunnel-Förderung, wird von Teilen des Stadtrats schlicht nicht geglaubt.
> 
> Die Verwaltung steht bei den Tunnel-Befürwortern inzwischen in dem Ruf, das Projekt ganz bewusst zu boykottieren. Viele Politiker verwenden daher bewusst die Argumentation der Tunnel-Initiative, die mit Unterstützung eines renommierten Planungsbüros auf deutlich niedrigere Baukosten und geringere Auswirkungen auf die Bäume des Englischen Gartens kommt als die Experten der Stadtverwaltung.
> 
> Der Stadtrat stimmt an diesem Mittwoch zunächst nur über eine neue Einfädelspur ab. Befürworter der Drei-Meter-Lösung sehen dies aber als ersten Schritt zum Bau des Garten-Tunnels - schon weil die Sparvariante bewusst als Provisorium gedacht ist. Die SPD ist hingegen überzeugt, dass auch nach dem Bau einer Vollspur die Tunneloption erhalten bleibt. OB-Kandidat Dieter Reiter hat bereits ein klares Bekenntnis zu dem Projekt abgegeben.
> 
> Dagegen ist niemand
> Explizit gegen den Bau der Röhre ist keine einzige Stadtratsfraktion. CSU-OB-Kandidat Josef Schmid würde sogar am liebsten sofort mit den Planungen beginnen. Eine Entscheidung soll aber erst im Lauf des Jahres fallen, wenn das Planungsreferat eine detaillierte Beurteilung aller drei Tunnelprojekte abgibt - neben dem Isarring sind Röhren an der Landshuter Allee und an der Tegernseer Landstraße im Gespräch.
> 
> Allerdings gibt es bei aller Tunneleuphorie bei Politikern von SPD und Grünen Zweifel, ob die kostspieligen Projekte bezahlbar sind. Zumal sie erhebliche Betriebskosten zur Folge haben. Die grüne OB-Kandidatin Sabine Nallinger hat ausgerechnet, dass ein Tunnel an der Landshuter Allee pro Tag 72 000 Euro Unterhalt kostet. Mit diesem Geld lasse sich im Sozialbereich sehr viel Gutes bewirken. Die Grünen wollen nach Auskunft von Stadtrat Paul Bickelbacher am Mittwoch eine weitere Variante in die Diskussion werfen: den Bau einer Landschaftsbrücke über dem Isarring, die aller Voraussicht nach billiger wäre als ein Tunnel. Zudem will die Fraktion einen neuen Finanzier mit ins Boot holen: den Freistaat, der schließlich für die Verwaltung des Englischen Gartens zuständig sei.
> 
> Nachtrag vom 29.01.2014
> 
> Bei der oben erwähnten Abstimmung kam es am Mittwoch zu einem Patt: Der Stadtrat konnte sich nicht entscheiden, ob der Isarring drei breite oder drei schmale Fahrspuren bekommen soll. Das wäre womöglich auch eine Vorentscheidung in Sachen Englischer-Garten-Tunnel gewesen. Doch die ist nun erneut vertagt.


^^ http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/englischer-garten-erste-abstimmung-in-richtung-tunnel-1.1874507

To summarize until there is a final decision regarding the tunnel there are two options to solve the problem of the connection between the ring and the Ifflandstrasse. Option 1 is change of the north bound ring from 2x 3,50m width to 3x 3m width, that way only a small part of the Englishen Garten needs to be used for the third lane that should remove the traffic light and daily traffic jam at the ring. Option 2 is a more permanent widening from 2x 3,50m to 3x 3,50m but many people fear that would mean the tunnel will never be build and the Englischen Garten stays seperated.


----------



## snowdog

Been te Berlin this weekend and I have a question :
On Autobahn2 between Hannover and Braunschweig, what are the reasons for the varying speed limits, it's silly, one portal shows 130, next one is 100, next is 130 again, next is 100 again, repeat, with no apparent reason.

Everywhere else I could see reasons why, eg. Kreuz or city nearby or there were undersigns explaining the limits. But on that particular section, it looks like some monkey is playing with buttons to set the limit at 100 or 130 at random.


And meh, loads of Poles breaking the rules with their LKW's on a sunday, lovely driving overall though without trucks (bar a few Polish trucks) on sunday.
Berlin is a bit of a mess road wise, it feels like half the city center is being rebuilt, but at least you can park everywhere and quite cheaply, and I've had no traffic problems.


----------



## Attus

snowdog said:


> Been te Berlin this weekend and I have a question :
> On Autobahn2 between Hannover and Braunschweig, what are the reasons for the varying speed limits, it's silly, one portal shows 130, next one is 100, next is 130 again, next is 100 again, repeat, with no apparent reason.
> 
> Everywhere else I could see reasons why, eg. Kreuz or city nearby or there were undersigns explaining the limits. But on that particular section, it looks like some monkey is playing with buttons to set the limit at 100 or 130 at random.


Have you seen it in dynamic, electronic signs?


----------



## snowdog

Attus said:


> Have you seen it in dynamic, electronic signs?


Yes.


----------



## italystf

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Can somebody tell me what sections of a motorways in Germany are building right know ?


Here it is:


MichiH said:


> *Germany* (map)
> 
> *A524:* AS Duisburg-Huckingen – west of AK Duisburg-South 21 1,5km (February 2010 to Early 2014) – ? – map
> *A524:* west of AK Duisburg-South – west of AS Duisburg-Rahm 21 1km (February 2010 to Early 2014) – ? – map
> *A30:* AS Bad Oeynhausen-North – AS Dehme 12 1,6km (September 2008 to March 2014) - project – map
> *A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center 12 2,2km (April 2008 to Mid 2014) - project – map
> *B50:* AK Wittlich – AS Platten 12 5,4km (May 2003 to Summer 2014) - project – map
> *B243:* AS Bad Lauterberg – AS Bad Sachsa 12 8,6km (October 2008 to August 2014) - project – map
> *A4:* AS Düren – AS Kerpen 12 11,6km (September 2008 to September 2014) [discontinuation: 12,6km] - project – map
> *A281:* AS HB-Strom – AS HB-Neustädter Hafen 12 4,1km (April 2009 to September 2014) - project – map
> *A66:* AS Neuhof-South – AS Neuhof-North 12 4,6km (October 2005 to September 2014) - project – map
> *A4:* AS Magdala – AS Jena-Göschwitz 12 11,8km (May 2007 to September 2014) [discontinuation: 12,6km] - project – map
> *A62:* south of AS Weselberg – Schwarzbachtalbrücke 2 3,6km (September 2013 to September 2014) – ? – map
> *A14:* AS Colbitz – AS Wolmirstedt 12 5,7km (November 2011 to October 2014) - project – map
> *B174:* Chemnitz-Südring – Chemnitz outskirt 2 1,3km (September 2012 to November 2014) – ? – map
> *A71:* temp. AS B85 near Etzleben – AS Sömmerda-East 12 11,4km (June 2010 to December 2014) - project – map
> *A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork 1 4,6km (Summer 2006 to December 2014) [direction Stade]- project – map
> *B2:* AS Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – south of Untersteinbach 12 3,3km (October 2012 to December 2014) - project – map
> *B49:* Solms – AS Oberbiel-East 2 3,2km (May 2010 to Early 2015) - project – map
> *B535:* OU Schwetzingen (2nd carriageway L597 to L543) 2 1,9km (December 2010 to 2015) - project – map
> *A661:* AS Frankfurt-Friedberger Landstraße – AS Frankfurt-East 2 2,2km (November 2007 to 2015) - project – map
> *A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – AS Itzehoe-South 12 4,5km (January 2007 to Late 2015) - project – map
> *A14:* AK Schwerin – AS Grabow 12 16,2km (November 2012 to Late 2015) – ? – map
> *A14:* AS Groß Warnow – AS Karstädt 12 11,5km (October 2013 to Late 2015) - project – map
> *B266:* AS Bad Neuenahr (A573) – AS Bad Neuenahr-East 12 1,8km (February 2009 to December 2015) - project – map
> *B50:* AS Platten – Longkamp 12 19,9km (July 2009 to Mid 2016) - project – map
> *B33:* AS Offenburg-Elgersweier (B3) – AS Gengenbach-North 2 5,2km (2012 to 2016) – ? – map
> *A448:* AS Altenbochum (East) – AK Bochum/Witten 12 1,4km (October 2012 to 2016) - project – map
> *A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-East – Hasselbach 12 4,3km (September 2010 to 2016) - project – map
> *A44:* Hasselbach – AS Waldkappel 12 6,1km (March 2011 to 2016) - project – map
> *A33:* AS Halle-Künsebeck – AS Bielefeld-Center 12 7,9km (September 2009 to 2016) - project – map
> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 12 5,3km (September 2008 to 2016) [discontinuation: 1,4km] - project – map
> *A30:* AS Dehme – AS Bad Oeynhausen-East 12 1,9km (September 2008 to 2016) - project – map
> *A46:* AS Bestwig – AS Nuttlar 12 5,6km (September 2009 to 2nd half-year 2016) – ? – map
> *A44:* AS Heiligenhaus – AS Heiligenhaus-Hetterscheidt 12 4,9km (April 2010 to December 2016) - project – map
> *B49:* Deponie Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 12 3,4km (May 2011 to December 2016) - project – map
> *A49:* AS Neuental – AS Schwalmstadt 12 11,8km (March 2011 to >= 2016) - project – map
> *A21:* Nettelsee – Stolpe 21 6km (February 2012 to Spring 2017) - project – map
> *A448:* AS Altenbochum (West) – AS Altenbochum (East) 12 1,9km (October 2012 to 2017) - project – map
> *A448:* rededication AD Bochum-West – AS Altenbochum (West) 12 7,8km (2017) - project – map
> *A44:* west of AK Jackerath – AK Holz 12 10,2km (May 2012 to 2017) [discontinuation: 2,2km] - project – map
> *A72:* AS Borna-North – AS Rötha 12 9,5km (July 2013 to 2017) - project – map
> *B85:* Piendling – Untertraubenbach 2 3,2km (March 2014 to October 2017) - project – map
> *B10:* Wallmersbach – west of Hinterweidenthal 2 2,1km (June 2010 to 2018) - project – map
> *B10:* west of Hinterweidenthal – Hinterweidenthal 2 1,7km (September 2013 to 2018) - project – map
> *B15n:* AS Ergoldsbach – AS Essenbach (A92) 12 9,0km (August 2013 to 2018) - project – map
> *B30:* AS Ravensburg-Süd – AS Karrer 12 3,4km (July 2013 to 2018) - project – map
> *A44:* AS Helsa-East – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West 12 6,1km (May 2010 to Late 2018) - project – map
> *A94:* AS Pastetten – AS Dorfen 12 17,4km (April 2012 to 2019) - project – map
> *A33:* AS Borgholzhausen – AS Halle-Künsebeck 12 12,6km (December 2012 to 2019) - project – map
> *A98:* AD Hochrhein – AS Rheinfelden-Karsau 12 2,5km (March 2009 to 2020) - project – map
> *A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork 2 4,6km (Summer 2006 to Late 2020) [direction Hamburg]- project – map
> *A26:* AS Jork – AS Buxtehude 12 4,5km (Summer 2006 to Late 2020) - project – map
> *A26:* AS Buxtehude – AS Neu Wulmstorf 12 4,1km (September 2013 to Late 2020) - project – map
> *A100:* AD Neukölln – AS Am Treptower Park 12 3,2km (May 2013 to 2022) - project – map


----------



## italystf

I think that Bad Oeynhausen is one of the worst motorway gap in Europe. It's amazing how it survived till now.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Can you post a video or something else ,so that others could see.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen*

Some photos of the new A30 taken from a bike bridge.


A30 Bad Oeynhausen 2014-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A30 Bad Oeynhausen 2014-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A30 Bad Oeynhausen 2014-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


A30 Bad Oeynhausen 2014-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen, Werre Bridge*

I took some photos from the Werre River Bridge on the west side of Bad Oeynhausen. If I remember correctly, there is an identical bridge on the east side of Bad Oeynhausen, also across the Werre. I haven't been there.

1. You can easily walk to the bridge from a little parking lot at the Gohfeld Exit.

A30 Bad Oeynhausen Werrabrücke 2014-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. Pano

A30 Bad Oeynhausen Werrabrücke 2014-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. Under the Bridge

A30 Bad Oeynhausen Werrabrücke 2014-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. Looking east with the sun from behind.

A30 Bad Oeynhausen Werrabrücke 2014-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. The bridge is finished, but there is virtually nothing done on the route elsewhere.

A30 Bad Oeynhausen Werrabrücke 2014-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6. Graffiti everywhere already

A30 Bad Oeynhausen Werrabrücke 2014-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## flierfy

^^ This project is so pathetic. It would have been better if you hadn't shown these pictures.


----------



## Suburbanist

flierfy said:


> ^^ This project is so pathetic. .


why?


----------



## keokiracer

Probably because it's taking way too frikken long to build a highway.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar*

The pièce de résistance of my trip yesterday, the Valley Viaduct Nuttlar (A46). It's part of a short extension of A46 that will bypass Bestwig. With a height 115 meters, it is the tallest viaduct in North Rhine Westphalia. It is suppose to open in 2016.

1.

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-1 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

2. 

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-2 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

3. 

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-3 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

4. 

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-4 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

5. 

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-5 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

6.

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-6 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

7. 

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

8.

A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 2014-8 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


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## thun

Is it indeed S-shaped as your second to last photo suggests?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not an S-curve, but is curved a bit. The S-curve appears so due to the proximity of the left (western) part of the viaduct from where I took the photo.


----------



## pmaciej7

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some photos of the new A30 taken from a bike bridge.


This is what we in Poland call "przejezdność".


----------



## MichiH

*A7 Salzgitter - Göttingen*



MichiH said:


> The Federal Ministry of Transport instructed them to advance the PPP project (press release; 13th August). The Lower Sayony Ministry of Transport commisioned an external expert to make a legal opinion (press release; 16th August). The result is that the instruction is legal (press release; 17th September). Minister Lies' (SPD) last hope is that a new Federal Government will make a political assessment instead of wasting money just for ideological reason.
> 
> The plan approval order for the *A7 section 4 from south of AS Echte and south of AS Northeim-North* (OSM) was passed on 30th August. Documents: > click <. The procedure was started in May 2011
> 
> The plan approval orders for section 3 (started in August 2012; OSM) and section 5 (March 2012; OSM) are still in progress, see project page.


The Lower Saxony Ministry of Transport must tender the PPP, see press release. It is planned to start the construction in 2016. The plan approval procedures are still in progress.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B239, Herford*

A little video of B239 around Herford. It is a motorway-like road. I like these little bypasses, though the traffic jam at the end may indicate an extension is needed. It's my first time driving there, so I can't really comment on whether this happens on a daily basis.


----------



## MichiH

*Herford bypass*



ChrisZwolle said:


> the traffic jam at the end may indicate an extension is needed.


Indeed, a 2x2 widening is planned b/n Herford-Füllenbruchstraße and Herford-Goebenstraße (B239) (1.5km; 9.5 million €; DTV: ~ 26,000 vehicles/day; predicted AADT: 30,000; OSM). The road under the railway bridge will feature 3 lanes only and the three intersections will remain at-grade. It was annouced in January 2013 to start the plan approval order in best case 2013. Construction start: >= 2015.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The area is quite densely populated. Herford itself has 65,000 inhabitants but the area is town after town after town. For example the Kreis Minden-Lübbecke has a population of 310,000 and Kreis Herford has another 250,000 people. Nearby Kreis Lippe has another 346,000 people. There may be over 1.5 million people within a 50 km radius of Herford.

A30 has numerous exits, on average one exit every 3.6 km and that is not counting rest areas. It makes you wonder if it hadn't been a good idea to build the A30 around Bad Oeynhausen with space for six lanes.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A30 has numerous exits, on average one exit every 3.6 km and that is not counting rest areas. It makes you wonder if it hadn't been a good idea to build the A30 around Bad Oeynhausen with space for six lanes.


The AADT is just about 40,000 vehicles per day.... (source)

You can be happy that the NIMBYs couldn't prevented the bypass.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yep, we should definitely count our blessings that the bypass is now finally constructed after decades of standstill. 

Apparently there is no truck passing ban west of Osnabrück. It was hopping from elephant race to elephant race. Not congested, but annoying. The newly renovated sections of A30 between Osnabrück and Bad Oeynhausen look good. They renovated it thoroughly and also installed new concrete barriers with sand in between, so there won't be any trucks going through anymore. They also expanded / built new rest areas with lots of truck parking.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> installed new concrete barriers with sand in between, so there won't be any trucks going through anymore. They also expanded / built new rest areas with lots of truck parking.


Both is very common in Germany.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's right.

This is the Grönegau rest area on A30 east of Osnabrück. It was expanded around 2010:









A whole new rest area has been built near Bissendorf, also east of Osnabrück.









Also, 2 new rest areas have been constructed along A2 between Herford and Bielefeld.


----------



## Suburbanist

What is the largest German city not served by a motorway (not necessarily withing Stadt limits but close enough on the same mini-metro/metro area?)


----------



## g.spinoza

Stralsund? Or maybe Konstanz, although there's a motorway getting to it on the Swiss side.


----------



## flierfy

Stendal with a population of 40'000 is probably the largest town more than 30 minutes away from a motorway.
Halberstadt is of the same size and not particular close to a motorway either.


----------



## verreme

^^ Friedrichshafen is bigger (almost 60.000) and not very close to a motorway either.

Ravensburg (pop. 50.000) has a motorway bypass, but it's not connected to any other expressway of the German network.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Regierungsbezirk Tübingen in general is a large area with few high standard roads (motorways & motorway-like roads). It has a dispersed population of 1.8 million but only a few Autobahnen around the edges.


----------



## cinxxx

^^that reminds me, I drove on Sunday to Tübingen, what's up with those ridiculous speed limits in Baden-Württemberg? 30 limit on regular streets, no schools, no nothing, then 50-60 outside cities. It was very frustrating...


----------



## RTE

No speedlimit in Germany.

Drivers are crazy on left lane.


----------



## verreme

cinxxx said:


> ^^that reminds me, I drove on Sunday to Tübingen, what's up with those ridiculous speed limits in Baden-Württemberg? 30 limit on regular streets, no schools, no nothing, then 50-60 outside cities. It was very frustrating...


Baden-Württenberg is big, and _all_ of it is not certanly like that...


----------



## flierfy

verreme said:


> ^^ Friedrichshafen is bigger (almost 60.000) and not very close to a motorway either.
> 
> Ravensburg (pop. 50.000) has a motorway bypass, but it's not connected to any other expressway of the German network.


Friedrichshafen and Ravensburg are both just 25 min away from a junction of the A 96. That is nowhere near the 45 min which Stendal is away from the A 2.


----------



## Kanadzie

RTE said:


> No speedlimit in Germany.
> 
> Drivers are crazy on left lane.


Never saw any crazy driving in Germany. The crazy drivers in left lane is in every other country :lol: (110 km/h? WTF!)


----------



## pmaciej7

Dreieck Barnim (A10/A11)

^Hamburg^









<- Szczecin ^Dresden^


----------



## DSzumaher

pmaciej7 said:


> Dreieck Barnim (A10/A11)


Well, even the whole Berliner Ring from start to end by carview. 
East





South





West





North (changes searchers will find their morsels including Dreieck Barnim )


----------



## CNGL

ChrisZwolle said:


> Also, 2 new rest areas have been constructed along A2 between Herford and Bielefeld.


Between Herford and where??? This must be a complex motorway, since it links a real place with an imaginary one :troll:.


----------



## thun

flierfy said:


> Friedrichshafen and Ravensburg are both just 25 min away from a junction of the A 96. That is nowhere near the 45 min which Stendal is away from the A 2.


The question was which cities aren't directly served by a motorway.


----------



## Suburbanist

DSzumaher said:


> Well, even the whole Berliner Ring from start to end by carview.
> East


I like these videos with a snippet map on the top-left


----------



## MichiH

^^^^ The biggest w/o. It should be _Reutlingen_ with its 110,000 inhabitants.


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> I like these videos with a snippet map on the top-left


Me too .


----------



## Suburbanist

CNGL said:


> Between Herford and where??? This must be a complex motorway, since it links a real place with an imaginary one :troll:.


What do you mean?


----------



## keokiracer

Suburbanist said:


> What do you mean?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy


----------



## cinxxx

^^
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy


----------



## keokiracer

Beat you to it


----------



## CNGL

And I first knew about the conspiracy in this very same thread :colgate:.


----------



## MichiH

*A20 north of Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> Correct. See BVerwG press release. Two complaints were allowed, five complaints were rejected, one complaint was already cancelled by the complainer.


The execution of the court was recently published: > click <.

According to a press release of the planning authority the criticisms of the BVerwG relate particularly to
- the method of the inventory of bats,
- the rejection of a more southern bypass of Bad Segeberg based on a rough analysis and
- the further consideration of dormice and amphibians.
The authority hopes to get a valid plan approval order within 2 years. The 5 ongoing plan approval procedures in Schleswig-Holstein are also effected and postponed by at minimum one year.

The regional press announces a construction beginning between "at latest 2016", "in 2016" and "at earliest 2016" . My guess is 2018.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If they manage to get another Planfeststellungsbeschluss by 2016, they will still have to go through likely appeals at the Bundesverwaltungsgericht (and Landesgericht?), so even if they do have the order by 2016, it will likely not commence until 2017 or 2018, provided there is funding by that time. 

Given the slow speed of construction at most projects, a completion before 2020 seems unlikely. For example, look at A33 Borgholzhausen - Bielefeld. It's been under construction for more than a year now and completion is not anticipated until 2019. And more often than not projects get delayed during construction.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> they will still have to go through likely appeals at the Bundesverwaltungsgericht (and Landesgericht?)


BVerwG only.



ChrisZwolle said:


> provided there is funding by that time.


The Federal Ministry of Transport said that the funding is definitely (money available as soon as the PFB is valid).



ChrisZwolle said:


> Given the slow speed of construction at most projects, a completion before 2020 seems unlikely


The construction time for that section was announced at 5 years, e.g. 2018-2022 (my guess - w/o appeals - is 2018 to 2023/24).


----------



## flierfy

thun said:


> The question was which cities aren't directly served by a motorway.


And I answered you that question.


----------



## MichiH

^^


Suburbanist said:


> What is the *largest* German city not served by a motorway (not necessarily withing Stadt limits but close enough on the same mini-metro/metro area?)


----------



## flierfy

MichiH said:


> ^^


You don't have to re-cite the original question. I know perfectly well what I answered. And largest of all places is Stendal as I explained.


----------



## MichiH

Sorry, you are right. Stendal covers an area of 268km². Reutlingen covers 87km² only.


----------



## MichiH

To be honest, it is Gardelegen west of Stendal (634km²; 23,000 inhabitants). The future A14 will cross both.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A10/24 Dreieck Havelland*

An aerial tour of the Havelland motorway interchange under construction, just outside Berlin.


----------



## Rohne

MichiH said:


> ^^ 36 lanes are quite a lot . But there are also no plans for 2x6 lanes.
> The A5 west of Frankfurt is planned to be upgraded to 2x5 but on 4 carriageways (2+3+3+2 lanes) to split long-distance and local traffic (~10km b/n A66 and A3).


That's not written in stone. Hesse announced this section as "810BB" for the BVWP, but it's still not decided yet whether it will be 5+5 (least likely as a new AS Europaviertel is definitely planned, but this requires separation of long distance and local traffic), 3+3+3+3 with some short 2+3+3+2 parts, 3+3+3+3 all the way (some parts even having 4 lanes) or 2+4+4+2. Or maybe even something different. So we might very well see this part of A5 having 6 lanes per direction in the future - at least partly, but presumably all the way.


----------



## MichiH

Rohne said:


> (some parts even having 4 lanes)


Plus temporary shoulder running b/n Airport-North and Niederrad northwards.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Preliminary coalition agreement: http://www.spd.de/linkableblob/112790/data/20131127_koalitionsvertrag.pdf. The SPD members have to agree. They can vote until 12th December.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Page 9: Diesem Ziel dient auch eine Ausweitung der LKW-Maut sowie eine europarechtskonforme PKW-Maut, mit der wir Halter von nicht in Deutschland zugelassenen PKW an der Finanzierung zusätzlicher Ausgaben für das Autobahnnetz beteiligen wollen, ohne im Inland zugelassene Fahrzeuge höher als heute zu belasten... Page 40/41: Die bestehende LKW-Maut wird auf alle Bundesstraßen ausgeweitet. Die LKW-Maut wird – unter Berücksichtigung der Ergebnisse des neuen Wegekostengutachtens – weiter entwickelt. Orientierungspunkte hierbei können sein: die Tonnage, das Netz, externe Kosten. Wir stellen sicher, dass die Netto-Einnahmen aus der Nutzerfinanzierung ohne Abstriche in die Verkehrsinfrastruktur investiert werden. Zur zusätzlichen Finanzierung des Erhalts und des Ausbaus unseres Autobahnnetzes werden wir einen angemessenen Beitrag der Halter von nicht in Deutschland zugelassenen PKW erheben (Vignette) mit der Maßgabe, dass kein Fahrzeughalter in Deutschland stärker belastet wird als heute. Die Ausgestaltung wird EU-rechtskonform erfolgen. Ein entsprechendes Gesetz soll im Verlauf des Jahres 2014 verabschiedet werden...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Page 9: This goal is also an extension of the truck toll and a car toll which is compliant with European law. We want to participate vehicle owners of not registered in Germany car to the financing of the additional investments on the autobahn network, without burdening domestically registered vehicles higher than today... Page 40/41: The existing truck toll will be extended to all federal roads (B roads). The truck toll will be further developed in consideration of the results of the new infrastructure costs expertise. Points of reference in this case may be: the tonnage, the network, external costs. We make sure that the user financed net revenue will be invested without compromising in transport infrastructure. For additional funding for the preservation and expansion of our Autobahn network the vehicle owners of not registered in Germany cars will be adequate contributed (vignette) with the proviso that no vehicle owner in Germany is more charged than today. The definition will be carried out compliant to EU law. A corresponding law shall be adopted during the year 2014 ...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Truck toll is planned to be extended



> The existing truck toll will be extended to all federal roads (B roads).


It is planned to launch the toll for all 4-laned B road in 2015. It will comprise about 2,100km instead of about 1,100km. This will not (yet) fulfill the coalition agreement that the entire about 40,000km B road network shall be tolled.

The former CDU/CSU/FDP coalition had reduced the affected 4-laned road network in April 2011 by that 1,000km of roads w/o direct connection to the Autobahn network which are added now.



> The truck toll will be further developed in consideration of the results of the new infrastructure costs expertise


The result is that the interests are very low thus the state saves money for renovation works. Conclusion: The toll rate must be lowered! It is planned to introduce the toll for all trucks with a weight of 7.5 tons (instead of 12 tons) to compensate the lower incomes (80,000 trucks are concerned).

It is planned to launch the car toll in 2016.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently they are rolling out new location markers.

http://www.bild.de/newsticker-meldungen/auto/autobahn-schild-hamburg-35213622.bild.html


----------



## MichiH

^^ In Hamburg only, see press release.

It is a pilot project to improve accident rescue.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> The Büderich bypass was opened. The 4.3km bypass costed 22 million €, see press release (2). Preworks were started in 2009, the construction of the first bridge began in September 2010.


I drove across this segment this morning. I took some photos.

1. Entering the new alignment west of Büderich.


2. The new alignment around Büderich has two lanes.


3. bridge across B58.


4. Entering the four-lane towards the bridge.


5. The speed limit is 100 km/h.


6. Last traffic signals before the bridge.


7. Bridge across the Rhine. This bridge opened in 2009.


8. End of the four-lane and bypass alignment. All traffic has to go through Wesel.


----------



## MichiH

*A7 Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Schedule for the _Hamburg _sections (only the northern one is part of the PPP), source (page 7):
> - _Schnelsen _section (PPP; 2x2 --> 2x3): 2011-13 (PFV); 2012 (PFB); 2014-18 (Bau); OSM
> - _Stellingen _section (2x3 --> 2x4): 2010-12 (PFV); 2013 (PFB); 2014/15-19 (Bau); OSM
> - _Altona _section (2x3 --> 2x4): 2014-15 (PFV); 2016/17 (PFB); 2019-22 (Bau); OSM
> 
> 
> 
> The plan approval order was passed in late August 2013. The construction of the _Stellingen_ section is announced to be started in March 2014 (> click <).
> 
> http://www.hamburg.de/np-a7-stellingen/ (many documents)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 27 residents have taken an action against the plan approval order for _Schnelsen_ section. It has no suspensive effect thus works can start in spring 2014.
> 
> The contract for rebuilding the "Langenfelder Brücke" (about 400m; _Stellingen_ section) was signed today (see press release). Costs: 80 million €. Construction time: Spring 2014 to 2018.
Click to expand...

The construction of the _Stellingen_ section will start in May 2014.
The construction of the _Schnelsen_ section will start in September 2014.
The construction of the _Altona_ section will start in 2019. Source.


----------



## MichiH

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*

The last section of the future A44 b/n _Kassel_ and _Eisenach_ w/o a plan approval order is *A44 VKE 11 b/n the i/c Kassel-East (A7) and i/c Helsa-East* (~11.3km; map; project page). The plan approval procedure was started in 2006 but aborted. The planning documents were modified and sent to the Federal Ministry of Transport in January 2012. The Ministry has to approve the plans. The Federal Court of Auditors ("Bundesrechnungshof") also has to check it. They've some concerns but they want to finish the check until spring 2014. Then the Federal Ministry of Transport has to authorize the plans. Afterwards the plan approval procedure can be started again (source).

Here a map of the current planning state:







(Source: Hessische/Niedersächsische Allgemeine)

The i/c _Kassel_-East shall become a three-leg-interchange by what there would be no connection from the A44 to the B7 towards _Kassel_ downtown. The final decision (with or w/o B7 connection) will be done during the plan approval procedure. The _Losse_ river and the railway will be crossed by two bridges (87 meter and 88 meter) instead of an underpass tunnel (which was part of the 2006 plan) b/c the bridge construction costs are only about 51 million €. There will be no additional lanes at the inclinations. The B7 near _Oberkaufungen_ will be removed and the A44 will use the current B7 route b/n _Oberkaufungen_ and i/c _Helsa_-West. The planning authority Hesse.Mobil does not agree the Federal Court of Auditors' request to use the B7 route near Niederkaufungen too, b/c this would require additional noise abatement measures. The A44 will also feature a 50m ecoduct and a 1.4km tunnel near _Helsa_. The total costs were specified by 223.8 million € in 2012.


----------



## MichiH

*A524 Duisburg*



MichiH said:


> That's my "favorite" project at all....... I have no frigging idea.
> 
> The latest info (4th December 2013) was that the entire interchange Duisburg-South should be completed until May 2014. But I have no info about the status of the 2nd carriageway.


I passed there last week. The 2nd A524 carriageway is still not existing (but some works are ongoing) west of the i/c Duisburg-Rahm. The traffic is using the southern carriageway 2x1. I've found a source which refers a completion in fall 2014.


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH, do you know if there are real plans to extend B67 from Appeldorn to A57? The "ausbaustrecke" ends abruptly.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> MichiH, do you know if there are real plans to extend B67 from Appeldorn to A57? The "ausbaustrecke" ends abruptly.


Yes, I have, of course !

A 3-laned extension (2+1) is planned. The plan approval procedure was started in late 2010 for the last 15.5km B67 section b/n Reken and A43 i/c Dülmen-North (OSM). The part b/n the current B474 and A43 will be dedicated as B474. The construction takes 3 years. Latest info: > click < (January 2013).



> Auch auf wiederholte Nachfrage ließ er (NRW-VM Groschek) sich nicht auf einen Baubeginn in 2014 ein: „Das ist nicht sicher“, sagt er mit Nachdruck, er wolle nur versprechen, was er auch halten könne.





> The NRW Minister of Transport Groschek has not confirmed a construction begin for 2014.




Edit: Ahh, you have asked about the western part.....


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> MichiH, do you know if there are real plans to extend B67 from Appeldorn to A57? The "ausbaustrecke" ends abruptly.


A western extension of the B67 b/n the A57 i/c Uedem and the B57/L174 near Appeldorn is also planned (9.0km; OSM). The preliminary design phase should have been finished in 2013. It was announced to start the plan approval procedure in 2014. The construction will start at earliest in 2016.


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## Kanadzie

I am amused that there is a Appeldorn only 1 hour away from Apeldoorn with appropriate spelling for each country


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## ChrisZwolle

There's also Meppel and Emmen in the Netherlands. Just across the border are Meppen and Emmeln


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## panda80

Works have started to add shoulders on a section of A13, between Dreieck Dresden-West and Radeburg. This is the 2nd longest section still without shoulder on A13, after section Bronkow-Calau. The construction site is 7,6 km long and the speed limit is 60km/h. Now just the direction Dresden-Berlin is affected. The traffic is quite high on this suburban section, probably 3+3 would have been wise to build. The construction will last until december 2016.


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## MichiH

*A3 Würzburg*



MichiH said:


> *WÜ-Heidingsfeld to Mainbrücke Randersacker*: 170 million € for 5.4km (preliminary works have been started).


Some pics taken by _=michael=_.

Temporary B19 overpass at i/c Würzburg-Heidingsfeld

































Viaduct "Talbrücke Heidingsfeld":


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## ChrisZwolle

*B58 Büderich*



MichiH said:


> The Büderich bypass was opened. The 4.3km bypass costed 22 million €, see press release (2). Preworks were started in 2009, the construction of the first bridge began in September 2010.


And a video of B58 around Büderich + the Rhine River Bridge.


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## tfd543

Hello

Going from Dresden to Rostock, which part of the Berliner ring (A10) has lowest traffic volume and less road work ongoing. Western, eastern or taking the urban highway across the center of Berlin ??


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## MichiH

^^ Take the western one because there are works on the northern part of the ring.


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## tfd543

MichiH said:


> ^^ Take the western one because there are works on the northern part of the ring.


As far as I am concerned, half of the eastern is 3x3 right and the whole western is 2x2 ?


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## MichiH

^^ Correct. But the AADT on the eastern ring is b/n 40,000 and 50,000 vehicles/day. The AADT on the western ring is b/n 27,000 and 35,000 vehicles/day (source). The widening of the ring is u/c on the northern part. More information about construction: > click < (I've no idea why the construction b/n Pankow and Weißensee is not shown there). The western route is 7km shorter than the eastern route but about 22km (about 20%) longer than the route through the city (with speed limit and more traffic).

I've just tried to answer your question "lowest traffic volume and less road work" .


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## tfd543

MichiH said:


> ^^ Correct. But the AADT on the eastern ring is b/n 40,000 and 50,000 vehicles/day. The AADT on the western ring is b/n 27,000 and 35,000 vehicles/day (source). The widening of the ring is u/c on the northern part. More information about construction: > click < (I've no idea why the construction b/n Pankow and Weißensee is not shown there). The western route is 7km shorter than the eastern route but about 22km (about 20%) longer than the route through the city (with speed limit and more traffic).I've just tried to answer your question "lowest traffic volume and less road work" .


very detailed. thnx a lot..


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## flierfy

MichiH said:


> ^^ Take the western one because there are works on the northern part of the ring.


Havelland junction is under construction. The relation Dresden-Rostock there is guided through an awfully tight loop right now. Because of that I'd take the eastern route.


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## tfd543

flierfy said:


> Havelland junction is under construction. The relation Dresden-Rostock there is guided through an awfully tight loop right now. Because of that I'd take the eastern route.


Is it only at havelland junction that is u/c right now ? Ad Barnim is finished right? 
Wikipedia says something that the Road work continues to neuruppin at A24. If that is correct it makes no difference to take west/east part


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## MichiH

^^ Exactly. The A10 east of AD Havelland is also u/c (northern ring).


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## tfd543

MichiH said:


> ^^ Exactly. The A10 east of AD Havelland is also u/c (northern ring).


And any ideas when its finished?


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## MichiH

^^ Probably in late 2014 (source). The widening b/n Pankow and Weißensee is estimated for 3rd quarter 2015 (source).


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## MichiH

*A3 Würzburg*



MichiH said:


> Temporary B19 overpass at i/c Würzburg-Heidingsfeld
> Viaduct "Talbrücke Heidingsfeld"


The old overpass will be demolished this weekend (source). The new overpass costs 3.9 million €. The contract for the new viaduct "Talbrücke Heidingsfeld" was signed (costs: 71 million €; construction begin: Early July 2014).


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## MichiH

*Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015*

The revised concept for the BVWP 2015 was published today, see press release.

The BVWP will be valid until 2030. The public will be participated in the process. The main feature is a nationwide priority concept to ensure that the funding will be used efficient and according to the demand. This means:
- Maintenance before upgrade and new buildings (Vorrang von Erhaltungsinvestitionen vor Aus- und Neubauvorhaben)
- Upgrades and new buildings on important transit projects first (Fokussierung des Aus- und Neubaus auf überregional bedeutsame Projekte)
- Bottle necks on main routes will be prioritized (Priorisierung von Aus- und Neubauprojekten zur Engpassbeseitigung auf Hauptachsen)

Next steps:
- Make a list of all submitted projects: Spring 2014
- Evaluation of all submitted projects (by experts): 2014/2015
- Presentation of the preliminary BVWP 2015 and cabinet decision: 2. half-year 2015


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Note how the BVWPs become increasingly long term. The BVWP was renewed every 5-7 years between the 1970s and 1990s and increased to 11 years from 1992-2014 and now another 15 years. 

The basic problem is the lack of funding. Back in 2011 only 40% of the "urgent need" projects of 2001 were completed or under construction.


----------



## MichiH

^^ An official stats from March 2014: > click <.

33% of all urgent projects were completed until 2013. 70% of all urgent Autobahn projects were completed. (I don't believe that stats b/c there are not yet 100% of all Autobahn projects completed in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, see page 4).


----------



## bavarian urbanist

Germany won't need any new Autobahns once the ones that are in planning and under construction now are built. Now, we have to invest in maintainance and some upgrading here and there.


----------



## Heico-M

bavarian urbanist said:


> Germany won't need any new Autobahns once the ones that are in planning and under construction now are built. Now, we have to invest in maintainance and some upgrading here and there.


Well said. But I don't see that many ofthe motorways that are in plaaning today will ever be built. 
On the other hand side, let us hope they'll get along with the maintenance before we see any bridges tumble.


----------



## MichiH

^^^^ The BVWP 2015 proposal contains new Autobahns but I guess there are no new projects since BVWP 2003. Do you think Germany don't needs the 2nd A94 carriageway near Burghausen? This project is a BVWP 2003 project which is "not yet planned" (only proposed and classified as "further demand").

In addition the BVWP contains many Autobahn widening projects. I think there are new submitted projects like the A81 widening (2x3 --> 2x4) b/n Heilbronn and Stuttgart which are needed (AADT 2010 b/n 90,000 and 130,000 vehicles/day)!

The BVWP also contains B road projects...........


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## MichiH

I've checked the published proposal lists of the states.

The northern A71 extension in Saxony-Anhalt b/n A14 and A38 is the only new submitted Autobahn project.
The A21 b/n A7 and A39 in Lower Saxony, the eastern A27 extension in Lower Saxony, the western A39 extension b/n A33 and A7 (proposed by NRW and Lower Saxony) and the A99 southern ring of Munich were already withdrawn.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think the states are seriously calling for a whole new era of new motorway construction. They just need to mop up the remaining missing links and focus on widening projects. 

For example, I don't see why A39 would be necessary in addition to A14. Just widen A7 to six lanes and maybe eight lanes on the busiest stretches. 

I think the extended A39 southwest of Salzgitter was just to make a point that eight-laning A2 makes more sense than a whole new reliever route.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think the extended A39 southwest of Salzgitter was just to make a point that eight-laning A2 makes more sense than a whole new reliever route.


I also think that the western A39 extension was just used by the state's government to get acceptance for an A2 widening but I usually prefer having two 2x2 or 2x3 roads instead of one 2x4 road b/c a 2nd road means an alternative route in case of an accident and it develops new terrain and it relieves rural roads there.


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## Suburbanist

A most-needed Autobahn is a Freiburg-Memmingën

A Fernham-Cuxhaven Autobhan is also needed, to provide cross-links to the highways converging on HAmburg.


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> A most-needed Autobahn is a Freiburg-Memmingën


The plans were canceled about 30 years ago. It is only planned to build an A860 city tunnel Freiburg and to form a 4-laned B31 up to Hinterzarten. Estimated costs: 295.9 million € (city tunnel Freiburg) + 12.9 million € (2nd carriageway b/n Kirchzarten and Buchenbach) + 125.8 million € (Falkensteigtunnel) + 171.8 million € (Hirschsprungtunnel) + 224.1 million € (Hinterzarten bypass) = *830 million €. Total length: ~20km.*

It is planned (since many years and with a very slow advance) to upgrade the B31 to 2+1 b/n Hinterzarten and Hüfingen (B27 west of A81). It was planned to use it as a 1st carriageway and building a 2nd carriageway was in the BVWP 2003 as further demand. This project was not submitted for the BVWP 2015 by the state again. 

East of the A81 there are no plans for a direct connection but a 4-laned upgrade of the B31 b/n Überlingen and Friedrichshafen is still planned (the construction of the first section could be started in 2015). The 4-laned southern B30 was also submitted for the BVWP 2015. One 3.4km section is already u/c (July 2013 to 2018; plus a 2km 2-laned B467; total costs: 63 million €).

See state's presentation from November 2013: > click < (including some maps and lists with state's priorities).



Suburbanist said:


> A Fernham-Cuxhaven Autobhan is also needed, to provide cross-links to the highways converging on HAmburg.


I guess you mean Fehmarn-Cuxhaven? There are no plans for a direct connection. The A20 b/n Westerstede (A28) and Bad Segeberg (A21) is planned. In addition the A26 b/n Stade (future A20) and Hamburg (A7/A1) is planned or already in construction. But w/o connection Stade-Cuxhaven. There is also a detour near Lübeck for the Fehmarn-Netherlands connection.


----------



## MichiH

*A3 Würzburg*



MichiH said:


> The old overpass will be demolished this weekend (source). The new overpass costs 3.9 million €. The contract for the new viaduct "Talbrücke Heidingsfeld" was signed (costs: 71 million €; construction begin: Early July 2014).


The works were delayed by about 5 hours (some pics).

Before / after

  Source: Main-Post


----------



## thun

Suburbanist said:


> A most-needed Autobahn is a Freiburg-Memmingën


Noone needs that monster. Upgrating the A98 corridor (Singen - Lindau) makes a lot more sense, but even there a autobahn would be bonkers.

A94 in the current planning is flawed and unneccessary as well. It would make sense if there would be a direct connection to the Austrian Innkreisautobahn (a Braunau - Ried bypass) because then it could segregate traffic to the Tauern from that to Linz and beyond and would relieve A8 from some traffic.


----------



## MichiH

^^ The western part of the A94 is absolutely necessary. Austria refused an Autobahn on their territory thus Germany had to find a compromise.


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*



MichiH said:


> New pics (taken b/n 16th and 23rd November 2013) are red marked: Schwerin - Grabow.


New pics (taken on 15th March 2014) are red marked: Groß Warnow - Karstädt.

Aerial pics (taken by _*© Bruno Becker*_ on 4th September 2013) of AK Schwerin - AS Grabow section:


































































Aerial pics (taken by _*© Bruno Becker*_ on 27th March 2014) of AS Colbitz - AS Wolmirstedt section:


































Aerial pics (taken by _*© Bruno Becker*_ on 27th March 2014) of AS Grabow:


----------



## Wilhem275

What is that giant pile of dirt in the middle of nothing? :?


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## ChrisZwolle

That's a salt or potas mine. 

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K+S


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## MichiH

*A14/A24 AK Schwerin*

I forgot the latest pics of u/c AK Schwerin .

Taken by *© Bruno Becker* on 12th March 2014:









Taken by *© Bruno Becker* in late March 2014:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting, they took the old A241 towards Schwerin out of traffic completely.

How do they detour traffic from Schwerin to Berlin? The nearest exit on A14 north of AK Schwerin is at Schwerin itself, 20 km to the north.


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## MichiH

^^ Via a temporary exit at L92 and A24 i/c Wöbbelin (OSM), see press release (current traffic routing from 19th August 2013 to December 2014).


----------



## ChasingCars

*Road tolls on German Autobahns from 2016*

According to Dutch news site NOS, Germany will introduce Autobahn tolls for cars by 2016. German road traffic minister Dobrindt has said this in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeize Zeitung newspaper. Here's a link to the news article (only in Dutch): http://nos.nl/artikel/634202-tolvignet-voor-autobahn-vanaf-2016.html


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## ChrisZwolle

There is no need for new taxes. German motorist already pay the grand prix in taxes, and very little of that flows back into roads. The problem is not German or foreign motorists not paying enough taxes to fund road projects and maintenance, but the problem is politicians hijacking all motoring taxes into other purposes. The real solution would be a tax on politicians


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## Wilhem275

MichiH said:


> IZ-AN is also forbidden. You have to read it from the right to the left...


I once believed this obsession with nazi-prohibition was paranoia.

But in recent years European politics have showed how fast those kind of rats come out (populist movements, in general) if only the political system is a bit weak, so it's probably better not to forget.
The important point is to prosecute the ideas, and not only a bunch of letters and numbers.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> the problem is politicians hijacking all motoring taxes into other purposes.


Exactly!


----------



## volodaaaa

Wilhem275 said:


> I once believed this obsession with nazi-prohibition was paranoia.
> 
> But in recent years European politics have showed how fast those kind of rats come out (populist movements, in general) if only the political system is a bit weak, so it's probably better not to forget.
> The important point is to prosecute the ideas, and not only a bunch of letters and numbers.


When someone's first though after seeing the aforementioned combination of letters and digits is Adolf Hitler, then I think (s)he must be surely Nazi inwardly.

The same goes for people who consider red colour communist or who consider jokes about blondes, policemen, homosexuals, gypsies, nationalities, etc. offensive.


----------



## volodaaaa

MichiH said:


> A company from Wolfratshausen in Bavaria requested a combination like TÖL-*HH* 123 or WOR-*HH* 123. That's not allowed in the district of Bad Tölz-Wolfratshausen. The state of Bavaria has a recommendation that HH should not be used and the district interprets it as a prohibition.
> 
> It is also possible that a licensing office forbids HH-HH 88 because it is a shortcut for "*H*eil *H*itler(even 3 times in that case b/c the 8th character of the alphabet is *H* ).
> 
> I know that SS is generally not allowed, e.g. M-*SS* 123 (SS = *S*chutz*s*taffel) or M-AB 18 (18 = 1st and 8th character of the alphabet = AH = *A*dolf *H*itler).
> 
> IZ-AN is also forbidden. You have to read it from the right to the left...


Hardcore state of paranoia... indeed. Would not be easier to do a list of *allowed *combination of letters and digits? I think it might be shorter :lol:
Furthermore, if we try hard enough, we can find a secret message in every combination :lol:


----------



## Heico-M

volodaaaa said:


> Hardcore state of paranoia... indeed.


Yeah, Germany is very paranoid about Nazi symbolism, for a good reason.
America is paranoid about planes crashing into skyscrapers, for a good reason.
Some people are afraid of dogs, and most of them have a good reason.

Once bitten, twice shy (or paranoid, basically)


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## MichiH

volodaaaa said:


> Hardcore state of paranoia... indeed.


Once a German guy asked if 444 is also forbidden (*D*ie *D*oofen *D*eutschen = the stupid Germans) :lol:.



volodaaaa said:


> When someone's first though after seeing the aforementioned combination of letters and digits is Adolf Hitler, then I think (s)he must be surely Nazi inwardly.


Well, I also think this is bullshit but the problem is that there are some guys who are proud of things like that. They are using these "forbidden" signs in public. They are membership signs of their groups. There were some guys in my neighborhood many years ago who called themselves "Kameradschaft 818" ("camaraderie 818"). So I know that things like this really exists!


----------



## volodaaaa

MichiH said:


> There were some guys in my neighborhood many years ago who called themselves "Kameradschaft 818" ("camaraderie 818"). So I know that things like this really exists!


Yeah, but they can calmly rename themselves to "Kameradschaft 717" and remain Nazis continuously.


----------



## MichiH

volodaaaa said:


> Yeah, but they can calmly rename themselves to "Kameradschaft 717" and remain Nazis continuously.


But they wouldn't be proud of that name because it is not a symbol. It's like you would have a jersey from CR7 with number 8 .


----------



## Natomasken

MichiH said:


> A company from Wolfratshausen in Bavaria requested a combination like TÖL-*HH* 123 or WOR-*HH* 123. That's not allowed in the district of Bad Tölz-Wolfratshausen. The state of Bavaria has a recommendation that HH should not be used and the district interprets it as a prohibition.
> 
> It is also possible that a licensing office forbids HH-HH 88 because it is a shortcut for "*H*eil *H*itler(even 3 times in that case b/c the 8th character of the alphabet is *H* ).
> 
> I know that SS is generally not allowed, e.g. M-*SS* 123 (SS = *S*chutz*s*taffel) or M-AB 18 (18 = 1st and 8th character of the alphabet = AH = *A*dolf *H*itler).
> 
> IZ-AN is also forbidden. You have to read it from the right to the left...


I was about to ask why these combinations were verboten. I figured it was probably something related to sexual innuendo! That's usually the case here when states reject custom license plate requests. It never occurred to me it was Nazi-related.

I didn't realize Germany allowed custom number plates.


----------



## MichiH

Natomasken said:


> I figured it was probably something related to sexual innuendo!


No, we are not Americans. SE-XY, GE-IL (horny) and HU-RE (*****) is allowed in Germany.


----------



## darko06

Interesting.


----------



## spy_flo

I have a question. The combination of 3 letters and another 2,like ABC DE 00 is allowed in Germany?


----------



## volodaaaa

spy_flo said:


> I have a question. The combination of 3 letters and another 2,like ABC DE 00 is allowed in Germany?


AFAIK, the first set of letters is a defined area code. Especially in Germany I have noticed, the less important town, the more letters in area code it has. Perhaps any German could confirm it


----------



## Road_UK

volodaaaa said:


> AFAIK, the first set of letters is a defined area code. Especially in Germany I have noticed, the less important town, the more letters in area code it has. Perhaps any German could confirm it


Not as much the importance of a town, but more the size of it, and the availability of letters. You can't for example let Koblenz start with a K only, because it has been allocated to Köln.


----------



## spy_flo

So,în Mannheim we have MA.for example the next 3 letters FIA is allowed?


----------



## Attus

volodaaaa said:


> AFAIK, the first set of letters is a defined area code. Especially in Germany I have noticed, the less important town, the more letters in area code it has. Perhaps any German could confirm it


Basically you're right. Additionally, as far as I know, there is no 00 plate, only 01 or 10. 
There is no area with ABC, so ABC DE 01 is not possibly, but e.g. ABG DE 01 is possible. However having only 2 digits is pretty unusual (but not impossible). 
Here is the list of area codes.


----------



## Attus

spy_flo said:


> So,în Mannheim we have MA.for example the next 3 letters FIA is allowed?


No, after the region code there can be 1 or 2 letters and 2-4 digits. Unlike in e.g. Austria, this rule is valid for personalized license plates, too.


----------



## Attus

Road_UK said:


> Not as much the importance of a town, but more the size of it, and the availability of letters. You can't for example let Koblenz start with a K only, because it has been allocated to Köln.


Yes. But there are only two regions having a Q code: QFT for Querfurt and QLB for Quedlinburg. There was nothing against Q for Quedlinburg and QU for Querburg, for example. Leverkusen (160,000 inhabitants!) is LEV, although LE is free. There is AIB and AIC (Bad Aibling and Aichach, repsectively), although AI is free (AA, AC and AH, however, are in use, Aalen, Aachen and Ahaus, respectively).

EDIT: I've found that LE used to be Lemgo, that's why Leverkusen is LEV, however Q, QF and AI was never in use.


----------



## Suburbanist

this seems too much obsession with "verbotten" letters and numbers.

The fact there are so many prohibited combinations only make them more 'appealing' for people who like them just because they are forbidden to begin with. Like those people who put stickers reading "Need for Speed" or something like that.


----------



## panda80

21.


22.


23.


24.


25.


26. 


28.


29.


30. At Kreuz Uckermark we take A20:


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## panda80

And now some pics from A20, one of the motorways with almost no traffic in Germany. There are not many like this in this country. A20 is relatively new, being constructed as part of the infrastructure program to connect east and west part of the country.

1. 


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9.


10.


----------



## Kampflamm

You can only dream of seeing empty roads like these on the _Kölner Ring_.


----------



## MichiH

panda80 said:


> And now some pics from A20, one of the motorways with almost no traffic in Germany. There are not many like this in this country. A20 is relatively new, being constructed as part of the infrastructure program to connect east and west part of the country.


Yes, your pics are showing the eastern part where the AADT 2010 was b/n 9,000 and 13,000 vehicles/day (source).

AN Weede (B 206) – AS Geschendorf *16900* / 1791 (10,6%)
AS Geschendorf – AS Mönkhagen *15700* / 1727 (11%)
AS Mönkhagen – AK Lübeck (A 1) *13100* / 1520 (11,6%)
AK Lübeck (A 1) – AS Lübeck-Genin (2a) *41000* / 3813 (9,3%)
AS Lübeck-Genin (2a) – AS Lübeck-Süd (2b) *32100* / 3403 (10,6%)
AS Lübeck-Süd (2b) – AS Groß Sarau (3) *34200* / 3796 (11,1%)
AS Groß Sarau (3) – AS Lüdersdorf (4) *31000* / 3348 (10,8%)
AS Lüdersdorf (4) – AS Schönberg (5) *30400* / 3192 (10,5%)
AS Schönberg (5) – AS Grevesmühlen (6) *28300* / 2915 (10,3%)
AS Grevesmühlen (6) – AS Bobitz (7) *25300* / 2910 (11,5%)
AS Bobitz (7) – AS Wismar-Mitte (8) *23300* / 2913 (12,5%)
AS Wismar-Mitte (8) – AK Wismar (A 14) *28200* / 2905 (10,3%)
AK Wismar (A 14) – AS Zurow (10) *26700* / 2483 (9,3%)
AS Zurow (10) – AS Neukloster (11) *25400* / 2413 (9,5%)
AS Neukloster (11) – AS Kröpelin (12) *25900* / 2279 (8,8%)
AS Kröpelin (12) – AS Bad Doberan (13) *30100* / 2890 (9,6%)
AS Bad Doberan (13) – AS Rostock-West (14) *31000* / 2635 (8,5%)
AS Rostock-West (14) – AS Rostock-Südstadt (15) *30800* / 2864 (9,3%)
AS Rostock-Südstadt (15) – AK Rostock (A 19) *28500* / 2651 (9,3%)
AK Rostock (A 19) – AS Dummerstorf (17) *23700* / 1967 (8,3%)
AS Dummerstorf (17) – AS Sanitz (18) *18600* / 1488 (8%)
AS Sanitz (18) – AS Tessin (19) *17900* / 1343 (7,5%)
AS Tessin (19) – AS Bad Sülze (20) *17100* / 1351 (7,9%)
AS Bad Sülze (20) – AS Tribsees (21) *17000* / 1275 (7,5%)
AS Tribsees (21) – AS Grimmen-West (22) *15100* / 1148 (7,6%)
AS Grimmen-West (22) – AS Grimmen-Ost (23) *16400* / 1230 (7,5%)
AS Grimmen-Ost (23) – AS Stralsund (24) *19200* / 1267 (6,6%)
AS Stralsund (24) – AS Greifswald (25) *17200* / 1170 (6,8%)
AS Greifswald (25) – AS Gützkow (27) *11500* / 1012 (8,8%)
AS Gützkow (27) – AS Jarmen (28) *14500* / 1378 (9,5%)
AS Jarmen (28) – AS Anklam (29) *13000* / 1248 (9,6%)
AS Anklam (29) – AS Altentreptow (L 273) *12900* / 1071 (8,3%)
AS Altentreptow (L 273) – AS Neubrandenburg-Nord (31) *10800* / 810 (7,5%)
AS Neubrandenburg-Nord (31) – AS Neubrandenburg-Ost (32) *10000* / 810 (8,1%)
AS Neubrandenburg-Ost (32) – AS Friedland i. M. (33) *11600* / 1218 (10,5%)
AS Friedland i. M. (33) – AS Strasburg (Uckermark) (34) *11600* / 928 (8%)
AS Strasburg (Uckermark) (34) – AS Pasewalk-Nord (35) *11900* / 1047 (8,8%)
AS Pasewalk-Nord (35) – AS Pasewalk-Süd (36) *9400* / 808 (8,6%)
AS Pasewalk-Süd (36) – AS Prenzlau-Ost (37) *12200* / 1037 (8,5%)
AS Prenzlau-Ost (37) – AS Prenzlau-Süd (38) *12500* / 1000 (8%)
AS Prenzlau-Süd (38) – AK Uckermark (A 11) *12400* / 905 (7,3%)


----------



## MichiH

Kampflamm said:


> You can only dream of seeing empty roads like these on the _Kölner Ring_.


The AADT 2010 was slighty higher there: Between 90,000 and 166,000 vehicles/day (source):

A1 AK Leverkusen (A3) – AK Leverkusen-West (A 59) *101600* / 13005 (12,8%)
A1 AK Leverkusen-West (A 59) – AS Köln-Niehl (100) *119400* / 14089 (11,8%)
A1 AS Köln-Niehl (100) – AK Köln-Nord (A57) *98100* / 13832 (14,1%)
A1 AK Köln-Nord (A57) – AS Köln-Bocklemünd (102) *90300* / 13635 (15,1%)
A1 AS Köln-Bocklemünd (102) – AS Köln-Lövenich (103) *108100* / 16323 (15,1%)
A1 AS Köln-Lövenich (103) – AK Köln-West (A4) *115500* / 13976 (12,1%)
A4 AK Köln-West (A1) – AS Köln-Klettenberg (11a) *104300* / 12099 (11,6%)
A4 AS Köln-Klettenberg (11a) – AS Cbf Köln-Eifeltor (11b) *97900* / 11356 (11,6%)
A4 AS Cbf Köln-Eifeltor (11b) – AK Köln-Süd (A555) *106500* / 11715 (11%)
A4 AK Köln-Süd (A555) – AS Köln-Poll (13) *120500* / 12773 (10,6%)
A4 AS Köln-Poll (13) – AK Köln-Gremberg (A559) *103300* / 11673 (11,3%)
A4 AK Köln-Gremberg (A559) – AD Köln-Heumar (A3/A59) *80700* / 9523 (11,8%)
A3 AD Köln-Heumar (A4/A59) – AK Köln-Ost (A4) *166100* / 17607 (10,6%)
A3 AK Köln-Ost (A4) – AS Köln-Dellbrück (26) *157100* / 15867 (10,1%)
A3 AS Köln-Dellbrück (26) – AS Köln-Mülheim (25) *149100* / 15059 (10,1%)
A3 AS Köln-Mülheim (25) – AS Leverkusen-Zentrum (24) *150500* / 15502 (10,3%)
A3 AS Leverkusen-Zentrum (24) – AK Leverkusen (A1) *157600* / 16233 (10,3%)

Most parts feature 2x3 lanes.


----------



## panda80

I was also driving on a Saturday morning, so there were no trucks.

11.


12.


13.


14.


15.


16.


17.


18.


19.


20.


----------



## panda80

21.


22.


23.


24.


25.


26.


27. From exit Stralsund we took B96 towards Rugen. Until Stralsund B96 is a 2+2 expressway.


----------



## panda80

And the last set of photos is from B96, towards Sassnitz:

1.


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9. And the bridge between the island and the mainland:



10.


----------



## cinxxx

I don't want to bring back the discussion about HH and 88, but I have only today seen more then one car either EI or IN, with HH or 88 or 8888 after it.


----------



## Road_UK

Probably rental cars? All over Germany there are rental cars on the road - the bigger ones like Europcar, Buchbinder or Herz usually start with M, DU, HH, WI and have similar registrations after the area code.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I guess he meant IN-HH *** or EI-** 88. The districts of Bad Tölz-Wolfratshausen, Ingolstadt and Eichstätt are in Bayaria. The recommendation are made by the state but every district can handle it their way. So the district of Bad Tölz does not allow TÖL-HH but Ingolstadt and Eichstätt do.



MichiH said:


> A company from Wolfratshausen in Bavaria requested a combination like TÖL-HH 123 or WOR-HH 123. That's not allowed in the district of Bad Tölz-Wolfratshausen. The state of Bavaria has a recommendations that HH should not be used and the district interprets it as a prohibition.


----------



## cinxxx

^^That was what I meant.
I know IN SS *** is not allowed, the gf of a colleague from work has the name Steffi S(something), and she wanted to register her car with her initials, but was turned down.


----------



## MichiH

*A66 Fulda-Frankfurt*



MichiH said:


> 35 pics and 1 video of the new A66 tunnel near Neuhof (to be opened in September 2014).


It is planned to open the A66 section in Neuhof on 13th September 2014 but it is not yet confirmed because they want to invite the Federal Minister of Transport (source).


----------



## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> The recommendation are made by the state but every district can handle it their way.


I remember seeing a car with the license plate "FÜ-HR 188" in Bavaria last year, so it's not exactly like banning certain particular combinations stops their ilk...


----------



## bavarian urbanist

kato2k8 said:


> I remember seeing a car with the license plate "FÜ-HR 188" in Bavaria last year, so it's not exactly like banning certain particular combinations stops their ilk...


Of course not. 
Anyway, I heard that the Netherlands don't allow GVD. Is this true?


----------



## MichiH

*A7 Salzgitter - Göttingen*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Federal Ministry of Transport instructed them to advance the PPP project (press release; 13th August). The Lower Sayony Ministry of Transport commisioned an external expert to make a legal opinion (press release; 16th August). The result is that the instruction is legal (press release; 17th September). Minister Lies' (SPD) last hope is that a new Federal Government will make a political assessment instead of wasting money just for ideological reason.
> 
> The plan approval order for the *A7 section 4 from south of AS Echte and south of AS Northeim-North* (OSM) was passed on 30th August. Documents: > click <. The procedure was started in May 2011
> 
> The plan approval orders for section 3 (started in August 2012; OSM) and section 5 (March 2012; OSM) are still in progress, see project page.
> 
> 
> 
> The Lower Saxony Ministry of Transport must tender the PPP, see press release. It is planned to start the construction in 2016. The plan approval procedures are still in progress.
Click to expand...

The plan approval order for section 5 (A7 b/n i/c Northeim-North and i/c Nörten-Hardenberg) was passed on 17th April 2014, see project page.


----------



## da_scotty

The state of the german motorways hit the dutch news today, featuring a item about the poor state of the motorways and it's slow and widely spread roadworks. Is anything changing on the political side?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Autobahns are actually in the best condition (pavement-wise). Local and state roads tend to vary a lot more (for the worse). But for the Dutch media, German roads means the Autobahn and nothing else.

There are lots of media outlets, but most appear to just echo each other like parrots. This becomes clear after you browse through Google News search, most of the news is just the same information. I think the recent burst of news about German roads in the Netherlands came after this article: So schlecht ist der Zustand der deutschen Straßen


----------



## MichiH

^^ The central issues are the bridges. Many bridges were built about 50 years ago and were not designed for the today's load, especially caused by the trucks. The Autobahn bridges and viaducts are in focus but there are also a lot of municipal bridges....

The pavement is not in a good condition. There are also many bad sections on Autobahns. There are problems with concrete mixture, problems with heat in summer... These problems are sometimes on old sections but also on new stretches which are bumpy! It's a shame!


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Autobahns are actually in the best condition (pavement-wise). Local and state roads tend to vary a lot more (for the worse).


Funny, my experience with German roads are quite the opposite: spotless Bundesstrassen, not so immaculate Autobahnen.


----------



## Road_UK

You have lived in Munich. You never bothered to go for a drive in the countryside? Around Ebersberg or Bad Ailbing for example? I never know whether to drive on these roads or have sex with them with all these holes in the surface...


----------



## Heico-M

Many smaller roads in the countryside (mainly K and L roads) are so bumpy that you had better drive an SUV, hno:


----------



## 909

MichiH said:


> The pavement is not in a good condition. There are also many bad sections on Autobahns. There are problems with concrete mixture, problems with heat in summer... These problems are sometimes on old sections but also on new stretches which are bumpy! It's a shame!


Scientists have now developed a concrete mix that could last more than 100 years without maintenance. Undoubtedly this concrete mix will find its way to roads and bridges around the world as it promises to leave these structures free of major cracks for more than a century and therefore saves money.


----------



## Road_UK

Heico-M said:


> Many smaller roads in the countryside (mainly K and L roads) are so bumpy that you had better drive an SUV, hno:



Yes, but even some major B-roads. Although they have built some splendid new ones in Bavaria recently, especially east of Munich and around the airport area.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> You have lived in Munich. You never bothered to go for a drive in the countryside? Around Ebersberg or Bad Ailbing for example? I never know whether to drive on these roads or have sex with them with all these holes in the surface...


I was on the countryside all the time. Local roads in southern Bavaria were the best I've seen in my life.


----------



## Road_UK

909 said:


> Scientists have now developed a concrete mix that could last more than 100 years without maintenance. Undoubtedly this concrete mix will find its way to roads and bridges around the world as it promises to leave these structures free of major cracks for more than a century and therefore saves money.


It'll never get sold to Belgium. They build a road in a way that the surface is worn out after 6 months already. It's a tradition, like chocolate, beer and Manneke Pis Statue.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> I was on the countryside all the time. Local roads in southern Bavaria were the best I've seen in my life.


I can clearly see that you have set your standards at a very low level. :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> I can clearly see that you have set your standards at a very low level. :lol:


I am Italian.


----------



## Road_UK

I know. You have some of the best roads in Italy.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> I know. You have some of the best roads in Italy.


I feel like you and I are living in parallel universes.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> I feel like you and I are living in parallel universes.


:lol:

No seriously. Your motorways are immaculate. A lot of your SS roads are good (some of them are crap) but overall Italy is not doing that badly at all.


----------



## Mackem

The German press has got pretty excited about the infrastructure issue, however this is really a problem for most western countries post war infrastructure. The UK press will eventually cotton onto this story, but we and other countries have similar problems. The collapse of bridges in the USA is well televised, however other places tend to give their failures less publicity. In the UK bridges on the M1,5 & 6 have all been closed due to risk of collapse. There are plenty others that are just closed because they're beyond use. 

As far as my admittedly limited experience of German roads goes, yes they can be busy , but the system is a lot more comprehensive and maintenance standards are ok. As for roadworks, if you want improvements you get cones, but as it's just taken 2 years to build 1km of dual carriageway where I live, it's not just the Germans who can drag it out......


----------



## Kanadzie

Road_UK said:


> You have lived in Munich. You never bothered to go for a drive in the countryside? Around Ebersberg or Bad Ailbing for example? I never know whether to drive on these roads or have sex with them with all these holes in the surface...





Austrian Travel Agent said:


> The Germans all want to see Mozart's house in Salzburg; the Americans want to see where _The Sound of Music_ was filmed; the Japanese want Hitler's birthplace in Braunau; but for the British, it's all about Fucking.


 :lol:


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Autobahns are actually in the best condition (pavement-wise). Local and state roads tend to vary a lot more (for the worse).http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...t-ist-der-Zustand-der-deutschen-Strassen.html


I don't think so. Here where I live local roads (Bundesstrasse, Landstrasse) have better state than the motorways (Autobahn).


----------



## MichiH

Kanadzie said:


> Originally Posted by *Austrian Travel Agent*
> _The Germans all want to see Mozart's house in Salzburg; the Americans want to see where The Sound of Music was filmed; the Japanese want Hitler's birthplace in Braunau; but for the British, it's all about Fucking._
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucking,_Austria


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> I don't think so. Here where I live local roads (Bundesstrasse, Landstrasse) have better state than the motorways (Autobahn).


The A7 south of Salzgitter was limited to 60kph in 2011/12, many motorway bridges (e.g. A45, A81,...) are limited to 80 or 60kph for cars and 60 or 40kph for trucks. There are also many very bad B roads, e.g. the B276 south of Wächterbach (Hesse) was limited to 30kph out of town (renovation in progress now). I also know many very bad L and K roads (since decades).

As mentioned before, the municipal bridges and bridges are also a big problem. The streets in my hometown are run-down. Our main road was renewed in 1979, it is planned to renew it this year again. The parallel street was built in the 1950th. The potholes are filled up provisional every few years. My street was built in 1939, renovation promised since 20 years, but the broken concrete sheets are still there. The potholes are also filled up provisional.

Well, maybe this is complaining on a very high level, but....

There is one K road near my hometown which was renewed about 3 years ago. It was not in such a bad conditon but it was renewed. The road was opened for traffic prior the final works were done. The first time I drove there (the speed was limited to 70 but I already drove 100+), I felt a slight bump. Meanwhile you feel a huge flap when you pass that location with 70..80kph. The new pavement is worse than the old one. That's a shame, and nothing happened! There are many new pavements in a very bad state...


----------



## MichiH

*Truck toll*

Publication of a report regarding the truck toll on B roads which was launched on 1st August 2012: > click <. The truck toll was discussed in the transport commission of the Bundestag today, see summary: > click <.

There are no significant shiftings to subsequent roads, there are only some exceptions. Most of the shiftings are back to Autobahns. The incomes are reduced due to a new "Wegekostengutachten". This is planned to be compensated by introducing the truck toll on additional 1,000km B roads (1st July 2015) and a truck toll for 7.5 t vehicles (1st October 2015). The rest will be compensated by money of the federal budget. The truck toll on all B roads could be launched in mid of 2018 (agreed by the coalition agreement). The "Linke" party criticized that the operating costs are 25% of the incomes.


----------



## Suburbanist

When will they extend B-15a from its current terminus north of Essenbach all the way to A-92?


----------



## MichiH

^^ B15n, not B15a. The total costs are 118.6 million €, 13 million €/km. The construction time is still ok in comparision to other German projects.



MichiH said:


> *B15n:* AS Ergoldsbach – AS Essenbach (A92) 12 9,0km (August 2013 to 2018) - project – map


Have you ever seen that thread?


----------



## CNGL

I believe it's planned all the way to near the AD Inntal (A8/A93). Not only it fills the A93 gap, but I've seen somewhere it was planned at one point to be part of A93, with the section Southwest of Regensburg becoming A90 and extending past A9 to Augsburg.


----------



## MichiH

CNGL said:


> I believe it's planned all the way to near the AD Inntal (A8/A93).


Yes and no. The entire B15n b/n _Regensburg_ and _Rosenheim_ is part of the current masterplan from 2004 (BVWP 2003, 2x2 with hard shoulders). Only the northern part b/n _Regensburg_ and _Landshut_ (A93) has urgent demand. Three of four sections are already completed. The next 15.5km section has further demand with planning right (the pre-planning is finished and approved, the next step would be the plan approval procedure). The next 9.8km section has urgent demand, the plan approval order was passed in December 1991, challenged and finally canceled by court.

The last four sections have further demand w/o planning right. There are currently discussions about the next masterplan (BVWP 2015). The Bavarian state has submitted the entire B15n but there are a lot of discussions. Greens, NIMBYs,... The authority wants to move the B15n eastwards (A94 i/c near Heldenstein instead of Schwindegg) and they want to choose a route next to the B12 b/n Heldenstein and Ramsau. That means, where the Isen valley opponents wanted to have the A94 some years ago .



CNGL said:


> Not only it fills the A93 gap, but I've seen somewhere it was planned at one point to be part of A93, with the section Southwest of Regensburg becoming A90 and extending past A9 to Augsburg.


Yes, about fourty years ago....


----------



## MichiH

volodaaaa said:


> Hardcore state of paranoia... indeed.


http://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/...iel-wirbt-mit-hitler-gruss-35896208.bild.html

Sorry for off topic


----------



## piotr71

*A44, Kassel-Dortmund*






In 6:20 you may see the most interesting part of the A44 "autobahn", the section Geseke-Büren, which was constructed as an Auxiliary runway for military aircrafts.
This section is even and straight, without any constructions like bridges and the crash-barriers can be taken out. It was constructed to be a runway for US-military aircraft in a war with NATO's opponent, the Warsaw Pact. At both ends of the section there are parking lots for parking and maintenance of the aircraft.


----------



## DelightfulDelight

german autobahns are full of traffic and dense.


----------



## MichiH

*A71 Sangerhausen - Erfurt*



MichiH said:


> ^^ No. The missing 11.4km section b/n _Etzleben_ and _Sömmerda_ will be completed until late 2014 (OSM).


It was planned to open the last u/c A71 section near _Sömmerda_ in December 2014. There were no problems last winter season, thus no delays. But they've found some disruptions in late March 2014. Works have been suspended at that location. The disruptions are probably caused by chemical processes and the completion will probably be delayed until 2015.

 source: MDR


----------



## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


> - 4th December: *B179 Königs Wusterhausen bypass* (2nd stage; 3.8km; plan approval order: September 2009; groundbreaking: April 2010; 10 million €; project page; OSM)


Pictures: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=114012253&postcount=3742


----------



## MichiH

The *B4 Kirchweyhe bypass* (part of _Uelzen_) was opened today (source; OSM; project page). It has a length of 2.1km, features 3 lanes and costs 11.2 million € (9.8 million € were officially announced two years ago). The predicted AADT is 12,750 vehicles/day with a truck share of 17.5% in 2020.
The plan approval procedure was started on 11th January 2008, the order was passed on 23rd September 2009. The groundbreaking ceremony took place on 14th May 2012, the opening ceremony took place on 13th May 2014.


----------



## MichiH

*A71 Sangerhausen - Erfurt*



MichiH said:


> It was planned to open the last u/c A71 section near _Sömmerda_ in December 2014. There were no problems last winter season, thus no delays. But they've found some disruptions in late March 2014. Works have been suspended at that location. The disruptions are probably caused by chemical processes and the completion will probably be delayed until 2015.


There is no building freeze, the works are only suspended in the affected section. An element of risk remains and cannot be eliminated. The disruptions are on 1.7km, the entire section has a length of 11.4km. The ground will be changed there. The construction time will last about 6 month longer whereby the section will probably be completed in summer 2015, see press release of the state's Transport Ministry.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They better do it right now, than having to close the motorway for long-term road works afterwards. Although another delay is a bit embarrassing for politicians, A71 is not that urgent that it can't wait another year.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Not urgent? Hell, that section is in the electoral district of the Thuringian Minister of Transport. So it is very urgent!


----------



## MichiH

*B19 Wernshausen - Niederschmalkalden bypass*

The *B19 Wernshausen – Niederschmalkalden bypass* was opened for traffic on 15th May 2014 (OSM; project page). The 2-laned bypass has a length of 3.9km and costs of 22 million €. The official opening ceremony will be in June 2014. The plan approval order was passed in March 2009, the works have been started (resumed) in June 2010. The new road includes a 630m long viaduct (13 million €; details). The works were suspended for about 69 years b/c the construction had been started for the "Strecke 85" at that time.

 Source: MDR


----------



## MichiH

*A661 Frankfurt*



MichiH said:


> The project includes the construction of the *2nd A661 carriageway* (OSM; 2.2km). The works started in November 2007 and are announced to be finished in 2015.


The A661 project is delayed. The works will be finished until early 2016 but the new carriageway is needed for the works at the A66 interchange. Hence the 2nd carriageway will be opened in late 2016.


----------



## MichiH

*A33 Osnabrück - Bielefeld*



MichiH said:


> The A33 connects the A1 (_Bremen_ - _Dortmund_ with the A2 _Dortmund_ - _Hannover_ and the A44 _Dortmund_ - _Kassel_ (see www.autobahnatlas-online.de). There are still 2 gaps near _Osnabrück_ and near _Bielefeld_.
> [...]
> The *last section* from AS _Halle_-_Künsebeck_ to AS _Bielefeld_-Center has a length of 7.9km and costs about 90 million €. The plan approval order was passed in June 2006. Construction started in September 2009. OSM. The completion will be in 2016.
> [...]


The A33 project is delayed. The works will be finished until summer 2017. The 65m Jückemühlenbachbrücke is postponed by 2 month (completed in October 2014). The road building works have been tendered but the works will not start until the funding is confered right to use by the Transport Ministry. They will probably begin in August 2014, not in spring 2014 as intented (source).

The 2014 federal budget will be passed in July 2014...


----------



## flierfy

These projects aren't postponed but delayed.


----------



## MichiH

Yeah, you are right.


----------



## mcarling

^^ The completion is delayed, not postponed.


----------



## kmieciu

*[B1][B112] Kostrzyn nad Odrą - Lebus *




map 
3:50 - 5:50 B112 Brieskow- Finkenheerd bypass, construction starts 22 June 2012, the works will be finished until end 2015. Lenght 10km, cost 35 milion euro.

Aerials 1 2 3 map project page


*[B112] - [A15] Neuzelle - Olszyna *




map


----------



## MichiH

*B91 Theißen bypass*

The plan approval order for the *B91 Theißen bypass* in Saxony-Anhalt was passed today (3.9km; 25.5 million €; 2-laned; AADT 2010: 10,000 to 13,500 vehicles/day, 11% truck share; predicted AADT reduction: ~66%; OSM), see press release. It will bypass east of the village and end at the existing B2 _Zeitz_ bypass.


----------



## MichiH

There are again problems with heat on the A3 b/n _Metten_ and _Schwarzach_ in Bavaria. The first damages have recently been eliminated. The authority has already put 80kph signs there which can easily be activated if the temperature will exceed 28°C.


----------



## Attus

Infrastructure minister Alexander Dobrindt presented calculations about road tolls. Expected net income (= income minus costs) is approx. 0.5 bn euro per year.


----------



## MichiH

*A3 widening b/n Aschaffenburg and Würzburg*



MichiH said:


> The ABDNB (Autobahndirektion Nordbayern) plans to upgrade the u/c section b/n Kauppenbrücke and Rohrbrunn until fall 2015 (8km). The 20km 2x2 gap b/n Rohrbrunn and Mainbrücke Bettingen shall be upgraded from 2015 to 2018. The next 8.5km section (mostly in Baden-Württemberg) will probably be upgraded in 2018/19. The u/c section near Würzburg will be completed until 2019. So the 1.1 billion € A3 widening b/n Aschaffenburg and Würzburg will be completed until 2019.


The 2014 federal budget is planned to be passed in July 2014. But a parliamentary state secretary of the Federal Ministry of Transport has already *confirmed that the 2x3 widening of the 8.5km section b/n the river Main viaduct near Bettingen and the current ending of the widening near Holzkirchhausen (OSM) will be funded!* Before, there was an endless discussion...

The A3 is in Bavaria, but 6.5km are in Baden-Württemberg. The river Main viaduct was already reconstructed b/n 1997 and 2001. It could feature 2x3 lanes but it has only a length of 400m thus it temporary carries 2x2 lanes only. The 11.3km section b/n Holzkirchhausen and the A81 i/c Würzburg-West was also widened b/n summer 2009 and December 2011.

The carriageway towards Würzburg contains a long inclination where congestions occur frequently. The 2005 AADT was about 60,000 vehicles/day, 57,000 in 2010. The 2020 prediction was 73,000 vehicles/day. It is planned to build an additional fourth lane on the eastern part of that section which continuous on the completed section until the rest area _Fronberg_. The fourth lane - on the left side - is currently closed there.

The A3 is maintained by Bavaria and the upgrade is planned and executed by Bavaria. The plan approval orders were passed in 2007. The Bavarian authority (ABDNB) has advanced planning, the bidding could be started in short time if the money would be available.

The construction is funded by the federation and it will be allocated to the states. The green/red Baden-Württemberg government has decided in 2011 that the A3 widening has a low priority. The upgrade should not begin till 2017. The region, especially the town of _Wertheim_, has protested. Also some regional members of the Bundestag were involved, plus the Bavarian prime minister.

The main point of critism is, that Baden-Württemberg returned 26 million € of their budget in 2013 because they were not able to spend this money! In addition, also other states returned money which were reallocated to other states - like Bavaria. Finally the Bavarian (Mr. Seehofer, CSU party) and the Baden-Württemberg (Mr. Kretschmann, Green party) prime ministers wrote a letter to the Federal Minister of Transport (Mr. Dobrindt, CSU party) to ask for funding.


Here a press release from the town of _Wertheim_: > click <.

It says that the funding should be available after the Bundestag decision in July. Preliminary works (5-6 million €) could start in late September 2014. The first step is to replace an overpass (OSM) to the "Wertheim Village" (outlet center). In addition, two little ditch bridges will be replaced in 2014, the hard shoulders on the carriageways will be temporary upgraded and services pipes will be installed. The clearance will took place in winter.

The real construction will begin in *March 2015*. The carriageway towards _Würzburg_ will be widened east of the i/c _Wertheim_/_Lengfurt_ and the carriageway towards _Frankfurt_ will be widened west of the i/c in 2015. The opposite carriageways will be widened in 2016. It is possible, that some final works will be done in 2017.



MichiH said:


> Mainbrücke Bettingen to Holzkirchhausen: *49 million €* for 8.5km (next section to build).


The total costs are 77 million € now. The 6.5km Baden-Württemberg section costs 55 million € (2012: 50 million €; 2007: 37 million €) and the 2.0km Bavarian section costs 22 million € (December 2011: ~12 million €).


----------



## tfd543

Hello. Which route do you prefer going from Lübeck to (Karlovac)Croatia ? Google maps gives me 2 routes, one is across Berlin-Leipzig-Regensburg-Austria, 
the other through Hamburg-Wurtzburg-Regensburg-Austria. The former is 30 min quicker on the map but is it a true estimation ?


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## MichiH

^^ There are a lot of construction works on the A7 b/n Hannover and Göttingen. The A3 b/n Würzburg and Nuremberg is very congested. I would take the Berlin-Leipzig route. This would also avoid driving through Hamburg.


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## ChrisZwolle

If you drive from A7 north of Würzburg to Nürnberg, taking A70-A73 is also an option. It's only a few kilometers longer, but it has much less traffic, and also fewer trucks. It's a more relaxing drive although you can't drive very fast, it goes through Erlangen.


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## MichiH

^^ Driving southwards the A70/A73 is an option. But the bridge west of the A3/A73 i/c is currently replaced. The A3 east of the i/c is often congested.

The (empty) 6-laned A9 is a better option than the A7 which is full of construction. The western Berlin beltway is also much better than passing Hamburg on the A1.


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## MichiH

*A20 north of Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> The authority hopes to get a valid plan approval order within 2 years. The 5 ongoing plan approval procedures in Schleswig-Holstein are also effected and delayed by at minimum one year.
> The regional press announces a construction beginning between "at latest 2016", "in 2016" and "at earliest 2016" . My guess is 2018.


The estimated completion of the procedures have been published.
 (click to enlarge the map)

The additional procedure for section 3 is planned to be completed in 2016.

The plan approval order for section 8 (Elbtunnel) should be completed in 2014 (October 2014 announcement: 1st quarter of 2014). The plan approval procedure began in May 2009.

Section 7: 2015 (instead of late 2014; since December 2007)
Section 6: 2016 (instead of late 2014; since May 2008)
Section 5: 2016 (instead of late 2014; since October 2010)
Section 4: 2016 (instead of late 2014; since July 2009)

According to a press relase of the Schleswig-Holstein Ministry of Transport from 30th April 2012 it was planned to pass all plan approval orders until late 2012.


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## Heico-M

I wonder when will A20 actually be BUILT???


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## panda80

Now some pics from Berlin to Kreuz Schwerin (A24xA14). Route.

1. Going out from Berlin on A111:



2. 


3.


4. On A10 northern Berliner Ring, between Kreuz Oranienburg and Dreieck Havelland:



5. The big construction site at Dreieck Havelland:



6. The construction site continues also on A24:



7. There was also a Stau, we needed 15 minutes more:



8. After the construction site:



9.


10.


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## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> I wonder when will A20 actually be BUILT???


It is planned to start the construction of section 8 (Elbtunnel; > 1 billion €) at earliest 2017. But first they have to find a solution how to fund it. I guess section 7 (b/n tunnel and A23; 15km; ~ 200 million €) should be opened together with the tunnel plus A26 section 5 in Lower Saxony. In total 43km. Operating the tunnel without having connection to the Autobahn network is useless and too expensive.

I guess section 3 and 4 (b/n A21 and A7) could be built b/n 2020 and 2028/30. If all would be completed until 2030, I think the 25km gap (section 5/6 b/n A23 and A7) in Schlewsig-Holstein could be completed until 2035. But it is gazing in a crystal ball. Not to mention the A20 in Lower Saxony........


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## ChrisZwolle

They should rearrange funding priorities in Germany. Instead of widening or building a few kilometers at a time, there should be funding for the entire project at once, and postpone other less important projects. That way you can use the expanded / new infrastructure quickly, instead of ending up with fragments for years or even decades. PPP projects are good example of how it could be done. A1 Hamburg - Bremen was widened in 4 years (75 km), compare that to to A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart where widening works are underway since the late 1980s and it seems unlikely to be completed before 2020. The corridor approach works better than fragmented funding.


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## MichiH

^^ Yep, but PPP is "bad". See discussion about A7 PPP in Lower Saxony. Germany love to complain about stucking in congestions but there is no adequate advance. The funding discussion of the past years is lapsed because of the "unexpected" disrepaired viaducts and bridges..........

PS: I agree. I'd like to focus on very important transit projects, it is planned to create a "very urgent transit demand" category with the new BVWP but lack of money is lack of money....


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## Heico-M

Germans do always complain ...
That is why they never reach the first place in the Worlds Happiest Nations ranking.:|


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## panda80

Heico-M said:


> Germans do always complain ...
> That is why they never reach the first place in the Worlds Happiest Nations ranking.:|


You are totally right...As I went to buy a Doner Kebap in Berlin the Turk said the main characteristic of the germans is : "Die Deutschen immer meckern"  The Germans always complain...


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## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> The works were *suspended for about 69 years *b/c the construction had been started for the "Strecke 85" at that time.



This must be a typo, right?


----------



## Mackem

MichiH said:


> ^^ Yep, but PPP is "bad". See discussion about A7 PPP in Lower Saxony. Germany love to complain about stucking in congestions but there is no adequate advance. The funding discussion of the past years is lapsed because of the "unexpected" disrepaired viaducts and bridges..........
> 
> PS: I agree. I'd like to focus on very important transit projects, it is planned to create a "very urgent transit demand" category with the new BVWP but lack of money is lack of money....


But they did find 9-11 billion euro p.a. for the early retirement package


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## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> They should rearrange funding priorities in Germany. Instead of widening or building a few kilometers at a time, there should be funding for the entire project at once, and postpone other less important projects.


Do I have to remind you that the A 20 itself is one of the rather less important projects? Widening schemes of vital trunk routes and life-supporting maintenance of the most crucial pieces of the existing road infrastructure is vastly more important than a motorway through the rural areas around Hamburg.


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## panda80

11.


12.


13.


14. Another construction site:


15. Continuing on A24:


16.


17.


18.


19.


20.


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## panda80

21. 


22.


23.


24.


25. Dreieck Wittstock:



26. After Dreieck Wittstock there is no more the 130 speed limit, and traffic is lighter:



27.


28.


29.


30.


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## panda80

31.


32.


33.


34.


35.


36.


37.


38.


39.


40.


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## Kanadzie

Heico-M said:


> Germans do always complain ...
> That is why they never reach the first place in the Worlds Happiest Nations ranking.:|


Which is why I dunno why they are complaining about the Klimawandel, Germany will get warmer and then everything would be way better, sandy beaches, lots of sun, like vacation all year :lol:


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## panda80

41. 


42.


43.


44.


45.


46. At Kreuz Schwerin there is a big construction site, they are building A14 further south:


47.


48.


That's all from A24.


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## Suburbanist

I have a question: they are building tunnels in SW München. When all is completed, will it be possible to drive between A96 and A995 without going through any traffic light?

When will this project be completed?


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> This must be a typo, right?


No . The RAB works have been stopped in 1941.


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: they are building tunnels in SW München. When all is completed, will it be possible to drive between A96 and A995 without going through any traffic light?
> 
> When will this project be completed?


Ground breaking: August 2009. 2.8km, 2x3 lanes. Estimated opening for traffic: Late 2015. Estimated completion: Late 2017. Estimated costs: 400 million €.

See project page.

Traffic lights: Dunno but I think it should be grade-separated.


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## Des

MichiH said:


> Ground breaking: August 2009. 2.8km, 2x3 lanes. Estimated opening for traffic: Late 2015. Estimated completion: Late 2017. Estimated costs: 400 million €.
> 
> See project page.
> 
> Traffic lights: Dunno but I think it should be grade-separated.


Yes once this is finished the entire Mittler Ring apart from the part between Berg Am Laim and St Quirin Platz is grade seperated and free from traffic lights. 

You will be able to connect between A95, A96 and A995 without any lights. Only the South Eastern corridor is still covered with lights so connecting from South West to East is still prone to severe delays. That said even the rest of the ring is often congested due to accidents or capacity problems.


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## ChrisZwolle

There is new imagery on Google Earth in the Würzburg area. Basically a strip of 29 March 2014 imagery from Schweinfurt down to Kreuz Feuchtwangen/Crailsheim. 

You can see the new Kreuz Biebelried, with six through lanes. That's something done right in Germany, they often have three lanes also through interchanges. The Netherlands is lacking in that aspect, with A12 being the worst, it drops down to four through lanes at six motorway-to-motorway interchanges.

A3 has four eastbound lanes from Randersacker to near Theilheim. You can also view the construction of the bridge at Marktbreit. It shows construction at Würzburg-Heidingsfeld (A3/B19).

There's also a new arch bridge across the Main at Volkach.


----------



## mcarling

Des said:


> Yes once this is finished the entire Mittler Ring apart from the part between Berg Am Laim and St Quirin Platz is grade seperated and free from traffic lights.
> 
> You will be able to connect between A95, A96 and A995 without any lights. Only the South Eastern corridor is still covered with lights so connecting from South West to East is still prone to severe delays. That said even the rest of the ring is often congested due to accidents or capacity problems.


In my opinion, they need to complete the A99.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It is not part of the current BVWP (2003-15) and it will not be part of the future BVWP (2015-30). But almost the entire existing A99 western, northern and eastern beltway is planned to be upgraded.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A3 has four eastbound lanes from Randersacker to near Theilheim.


The A3 will also feature *four** eastbound lanes b/n Kauppenbrücke and *_*Weibersbrunn* _(u/c until late 2015; section was already 3-laned before widening; westbound carriageway to be upgraded from 2 to 3 lanes) and *b/n east of Wertheim and west of *_*Helmstadt* _(eastern part completed but the 4th lane is closed; western part should be widened in 2015/16).
The A3 features *four westbound lanes west of the Würzburg-Heidingsfeld i/c* and will feature *4 westbound lanes b/n Würzburg/Randersacker i/c and east of the Würzburg-Heidingsfeld i/c* (to be completed until 2019; already 3-laned; eastbound carriageway to be upgraded from 2 to 3 lanes).

The future 6-laned A3 b/n _Würzburg_ and _Nuremberg_ will not feature any additional lane at inclinations.


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## Pascal20a

What they make on the A3 at the junction Aicha vorm Wald?


----------



## Road_UK

^^ A statue dedicated to people asking stupid pointless questions.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> ^^ A statue dedicated to people asking stupid pointless questions.


Why have you been so acrimonious across SSC? Geez...


----------



## Road_UK

acri what?


----------



## pmaciej7

Suburbanist said:


> When all is completed, will it be possible to drive between A96 and A995 without going through any traffic light?


Yep, in both directions.

http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/dms/.../mittlerer-ring-suedwest/pdf/mrsw_planung.pdf


----------



## Road_UK

Picture I took a while ago on the A8 just before Inntal Dreieck, warning people that toll vignettes now applies right from the border on the Austrian A12.


----------



## Suburbanist

pmaciej7 said:


> Yep, in both directions.
> 
> http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/dms/.../mittlerer-ring-suedwest/pdf/mrsw_planung.pdf


Good. It helps mitigate the lack of a SW sector of A99 for the time being. It can also provide an alternate route for drivers coming from Augsburg and going to Rosenheim (and vice-versa). 

Is there a particular story for building A995? Was it supposed to extend further north within München-Stadt?


----------



## MichiH

*Former Munich Autobahn plans*



Suburbanist said:


> Is there a particular story for building A995? Was it supposed to extend further north within München-Stadt?


It was just to connect the A99 (outer beltway) with the A999 (today's B2R = "Mittlerer Ring"). It was planned to have 11 connections b/n A99 and A999 - but not all at the same time: A990 (today's A9), A991 (A92 extension; still discussed a couple of years ago), A921 (airport Autobahn east from Ismaning; today's St2088/M3), A992 (today's A94), A993 (St 2078), A994 (today's southern A8), A995, A996 (today's A95), A997 (today's A96), A998 (today's western A8).

It was also planned to build the A8 through the city. This route had took the today's A995 route. See map. This would be your A995 extension but towards north-west, not to the north.

There is also a book about the Munich Autobahn plans: > click <.

Maps of the land development plans (Flächennutzungspläne):
- 1938: > click <.
- 1958: > click <.
- 1967: > click < (with the A8 through the city).

A map showing the different beltway route plans:


----------



## MichiH

Pascal20a said:


> What they make on the A3 at the junction Aicha vorm Wald?


Pascal, are you talking about the current closure of the interchange? It is due to renovation works, see press release (I am not sure if you can read and understand it). The i/c is closed from 28th April to 6th June. The map shows the u/c section in red, the detour route in green and the A3 in orange.


----------



## Pascal20a

Yes about that


----------



## Shenkey

are there any plans to make full ring around Munich?


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> How necessary is this link? They are already constructing the A14 from Magdeburg to Schwerin, so I think adding some passing lanes and a bypass for the last few villages on B4 would suffice...


I think the A21 Eastern Hamburg bypass would be pointless w/o its southern extension, the A39. The A21 has high priority to relieve Hamburg (A1 east of Hamburg and A7 south of Hamburg). I'd prefer having two Autobahns instead of one 2x4 or 2x5 Autobahn, e.g. it is planned to widen 25km of the A1 to 2x4 b/n HH-East (A24) and Horst (A7) and 30km of the A7 b/n Walsrode (A27) to Hannover (A352). The AADT 2010 was b/n 81,000 and 118,000 vehicles / day on the A1 section and b/n 87,000 and 90,000 on the A7. The A21/A39 would also be the best route from the Fehmarnbelt crossing to southern Germany.

I think the A39 is more important than the A14. Many people had preferred having a X solution (Hamburg - Magdeburg and Wolfsburg - Schwerin) like the A61/A63 in Rhineland-Palatinate instead of the H solution (the "-" would be the new B190n).



ChrisZwolle said:


> Especially with the funding gaps in Germany, this money could be put to better use.


There is no lack of money, the money is just used in the wrong way. I don't want to discuss this stuff b/c I am not an expert and I cannot come to a decision. I prefer to report about planning and building progress w/o thinking about the bullshit our politicians screw up .


----------



## Des

Alqaszar said:


> The problem is traffic between Rosenheim and St. Johann / Kitzbühel / Felbertauernstraße, wich would leave the A 12 as soon as Wörgl or even Kufstein-Süd. For this short distance, a vignette would be waste, so people will instead leave the A 83 on the German side at Kiefersfelden and then riding right through Kufstein on the L 171 to reach L 173. A "Korridorlösung" like at Bregenz seems not to be a solution, since the distance to the Kufstein-Süd exist from the border is just a few hundred meters. Who would buy a vignette for that? So the old solution, "no controls between the bordfer and Kufstein-Süd" was more or less the best one. I wonder why they changed it.


Bregenz Korridorvignet also doesnt exist anymore. In both cases local cities suffer from huge increase in traffic, polution and accidents. 

I drive both stretches regularly and really dont understand why they did this, its bad for all involved and from Kitzbuhel there is nobody except Austrians and some tourists who already have a vignet who take the autobahn, all Germans drive through the villages and towns to cross the border and enter the motor way.


----------



## MichiH

*A72 Chemnitz - Leipzig*



MichiH said:


> The A72 from Chemnitz to Leipzig is a new Autobahn in Saxony.
> The 7th section (5.1) from *AS Borna-North to AS Rötha* is 9.5km long (OSM). The plan approval procedure was started in December 2009, and the order was passed in June 2012. Two private persons submitted complaints, the hearing at the Federal Administrative Court (BVerwG) will be in autumn 2013. This complaints do not affect the begin of construction, which was announced for spring 2013.


The construction began in July 2013. The section is announced to be completed until 2017. Total costs: 89 million €.
Meanwhile, two additional plan approval procedures have been started in February and May 2014. Both affect the Espenhain i/c, pipe laying / cable routing and bicycle path.

Some recently taken pics by _sj1_ (posted on autobahn-online.de):

Near _Eula_ (_Borna_-North i/c):









Viewing dirction _Leipzig_:

















Viewing direction _Borna_:

















B95 towards _Leipzig_:









Near _Kitzscher_:









Viewing direction _Espenhain_:









Near _Espenhain_ - viewing direction _Kitzscher_/_Borna_:

































_Espenhain_ - viewing direction _Rötha_:









B95 towards Leipzig, future Espenhain i/c. The A72 will cross the B95 here.

















More pics from _sj1_: http://www.autobahn-bilder.de/.


----------



## Pascal20a

I drove there before one month


----------



## MichiH

*B50 Hochmoselbrücke*



MichiH said:


> Suburbanist said:
> 
> 
> 
> How are works progressing on the Hochmoselbrücke project?
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics of the u/c Hochmoselbrücke from September 2013 (> click <) and March 2014 (> click <). The latter shows two pics of the B50 near _Altrich_, which is east of the AK _Wittlich_ (A60/A1). This section (west of the Hochmoselbrücke viaduct) is announced to be opened in summer 2014.
Click to expand...

The LBM RP (road authority) said on request that the B50 section b/n A1/A60 and Platten (OSM; west of the Hochmosel viaduct) will be opened in fall 2014 (source).

History:
May 2004: Groundbreaking for the 5.3km section.
August 2010 announcement: Opening in 2013.
March 2012 announcement: Opening in Late 2013.
October 2012 announcement: Opening in Spring 2014.
March 2013 announcement: Opening in Summer 2014.
May 2014 announcement: Opening in Fall 2014.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So, 10.5 years for 5 km of expressway? :wtf:


----------



## Road_UK

I have to say that Germans really do take their time building new motorways or even resurfacing. The French have their roads back in perfect condition by an eye blink, presumably for a lot less money as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is there an opening date for the new Jagdbergtunnel in A4 west of Jena? The project website says "Mitte 2014", which would be around now.

http://www.jagdberg-tunnel.de/


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is there an opening date for the new Jagdbergtunnel in A4 west of Jena? The project website says "Mitte 2014", which would be around now.
> 
> http://www.jagdberg-tunnel.de/


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=110041814&postcount=1

*A4:* AS Magdala – AS Jena-Göschwitz 12 11,8km (May 2007 to September 2014) [discontinuation: 12,6km] - project – map


----------



## Bender

Road_UK said:


> I have to say that Germans really do take their time building new motorways or even resurfacing. The French have their roads back in perfect condition by an eye blink, presumably for a lot less money as well.


Since German Autobahns are free for cars and French autoroutes are normally VERY expensive, that's the minimum you could expect.
That said, I agree they are generally slow. It takes ages to do anything and I often see road work being done on roads that looked perfectly fine. I feel they have a contingent of people to employ and money to spend to matter what.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B62 Siegen*

Wikipedia, 2010:









Yesterday:

B62 Huttentalstrasse Siegertalbrucke by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## burt1991

what about A8 Pirmasens-Karlsruhe? Some parts of the german network are really out of logic... for example, no autobahn crossing to Strasbourg, and through Karlsruhe, and Landau in der Pfalz-Pirmasens? why is that not completed?


----------



## Suburbanist

I think that Germany should double its capital budget for road transportation investment. 

But even if it doesn't, they could concentrate on less projects at a time, completing them faster, thereby saving money and, over the course of _x_ years, actually building more kms/lanes than they do know with snail-pace projects that advance couple hundred meters to a few km per year.


----------



## MichiH

burt1991 said:


> what about A8 Pirmasens-Karlsruhe?


The project was canceled long ago. Nature conservation. It is planned to uprade the *B10 Pirmasens-Landau* to 2x2 (w/o hard shoulders; OSM; ~50km; project page). The Pirmasens region is pro, the _Landau_ region contra the project. The upgrade near _Pirmasens_ is completed (~10km), the next section up to _Hinterweidenthal _(B427) is u/c (~4km). The next sections are controversial. The plan approval order for the last section b/n _Godramstein _and A65 was passed in 2010 but it is still challenged (~4km). Endless discussion.... AADT 2010: 14,800-26,600 vehicles/day (source).



burt1991 said:


> Some parts of the german network are really out of logic... for example, no autobahn crossing to Strasbourg, and through Karlsruhe, and Landau in der Pfalz-Pirmasens? why is that not completed?


The *B28 b/n A5 and *_*Strasbourg* _is motorway-like 2x2 (OSM; AADT 2010: 29,900 vehicles/day).

It was planned to *upgrade the B500 north of Strasbourg (Baden-Baden)* to 2x2 (with hard shoulders; OSM; 5.8km). The new proposal does only contain a widening b/n A5 and B36 (~3km; AADT 2010: 22,500 - west of B36 11,500).

The *gap b/n A35.fr and A65.de/B9.de, the so-called "Bienwaldautobahn" *(OSM; project page), was planned to be closed. The 11.5km A65 (2x2 with hard shoulders) was part of the BVWP 2003 (further demand but with planning law). It was also controversial due to nature conservation reasons. AADT 2010 on existing 2-laned B9: 9,300 to 14,100 vehicles/day (source).

There is already a *motorway-like connection through Karlsruhe, the B10* (OSM). It is planned to build a *second Rhine bridge* b/n Rhineland-Palatinate (project page) and Baden-Württemberg (project page), the two B293 plan approval procedures have been started in early 2011 (OSM). Endless discussion.... Natural conservation... Opposition expects more congestion due to the construction "Mehr Stau durch Brückenbau"... The problem is, that the existing bridge must be renovated. Rhineland-Palatinate wants the 2nd bridge, the city of _Karlsruhe_ and the state of Baden-Württemberg want to renew the existing bridge. B293 costs: > 100 million €. The 2010 AADT was about 67,700 vehicles/day (source). I've read a AADT 2025 prediction in 2012, B10 (2x2) would be used by 74,600 vehicles/day and the B293 bridge (2x2) would be used by 26,500 vehicles/day. Latest info from February 2014: The federal government refuses a replacement of the existing bridge. It is / was also planned to build a northern bypass of Karlsruhe.....


----------



## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> they could concentrate on less projects at a time, completing them faster, thereby saving money and, over the course of _x_ years, actually building more kms/lanes than they do know with snail-pace projects that advance couple hundred meters to a few km per year.


Yes, that would be a good advise for our politicians, but...

The former CDU/FDP governments of Baden-Württemberg began a lot of projects in the past decades. The new Greens/SPD government has stopped the "Spatenstichpolitik" (groundbreaking policy) in 2011. They focus on completing the ongoing projects and they made a list with priorities of the 20 approved projects. The public was not amused to get info that their project is postponed - compared to the former bullshit announcements of the "Spatenstichpolitik".

I always agreed with this new strategy. It is the best way to relieve motorists b/c the number of congestions caused by endless works would be less. In addition the construction costs are less if there is a real progress - e.g. less winter breaks etcetera.

But the result of the new strategy was, that the planning procedures (tender etc.) were stopped too. Baden-Württenberg could not access all funds in 2013, and they refused b/n 6 and 15 million € of their budget in 2013.

The real problem is that the traffic incomings are not used for traffic infrastructure and that the fund allocation is part of the federal budget, which is e.g. not yet passed for 2014. It is not possible to spend the 2014 money in 2014 if the tender process cannot be started until fall 2014. The Greens/SPD government of BaWü is criticizing that too, but I don't agree with their general policy - not at all .

Conclusion: For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, clear and wrong.


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## Heico-M

It has to be added that the Green party in Germany has always conducted a road construction avoidance policy.

They prefer to go by bycicle.


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## Road_UK

MichiH said:


> The project was canceled long ago. Nature conservation. It is planned to uprade the *B10 Pirmasens-Landau* to 2x2 (w/o hard shoulders; OSM; ~50km; project page). The Pirmasens region is pro, the _Landau_ region contra the project. The upgrade near _Pirmasens_ is completed (~10km), the next section up to _Hinterweidenthal _(B427) is u/c (~4km). The next sections are controversial. The plan approval order for the last section b/n _Godramstein _and A65 was passed in 2010 but it is still challenged (~4km). Endless discussion.... AADT 2010: 14,800-26,600 vehicles/day (source).
> 
> 
> 
> The *B28 b/n A5 and *_*Strasbourg* _is motorway-like 2x2 (OSM; AADT 2010: 29,900 vehicles/day).
> 
> It was planned to *upgrade the B500 north of Strasbourg (Baden-Baden)* to 2x2 (with hard shoulders; OSM; 5.8km). The new proposal does only contain a widening b/n A5 and B36 (~3km; AADT 2010: 22,500 - west of B36 11,500).
> 
> The *gap b/n A35.fr and A65.de/B9.de, the so-called "Bienwaldautobahn" *(OSM; project page), was planned to be closed. The 11.5km A65 (2x2 with hard shoulders) was part of the BVWP 2003 (further demand but with planning law). It was also controversial due to nature conservation reasons. AADT 2010 on existing 2-laned B9: 9,300 to 14,100 vehicles/day (source).
> 
> There is already a *motorway-like connection through Karlsruhe, the B10* (OSM). It is planned to build a *second Rhine bridge* b/n Rhineland-Palatinate (project page) and Baden-Württemberg (project page), the two B293 plan approval procedures have been started in early 2011 (OSM). Endless discussion.... Natural conservation... Opposition expects more congestion due to the construction "Mehr Stau durch Brückenbau"... The problem is, that the existing bridge must be renovated. Rhineland-Palatinate wants the 2nd bridge, the city of _Karlsruhe_ and the state of Baden-Württemberg want to renew the existing bridge. B293 costs: > 100 million €. The 2010 AADT was about 67,700 vehicles/day (source). I've read a AADT 2025 prediction in 2012, B10 (2x2) would be used by 74,600 vehicles/day and the B293 bridge (2x2) would be used by 26,500 vehicles/day. Latest info from February 2014: The federal government refuses a replacement of the existing bridge. It is / was also planned to build a northern bypass of Karlsruhe.....


There are more projects going across the Rhine river between Germany and France. CTS (Strasbourg public transport company) are currently in progress of extending its tramline D to the German town of Kehl. It should be finished within two years.


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## Des

I drove Munich-Cologne-Munich last week and have a few tips for holiday traffic from NRW/Netherlands to Munich / Austria. 

The A3/A9 are full of construction work and I recommend avoiding the stretches between Frankfurt - Nurnberg and Nurnberg - Munich whenever possible. Between Frankfurt and Nurnberg the road works start close to Wurzburg and continue to Nurnberg with regular traffic jam and high risk of accidents. On the A9 the road works concentrate around Greding and between the A93 and A92 on both directions. 

As alternative I took the A61, A6 (Heilbronn), A81 (Stuttgart) and A8 (Munich) - the A61 had some areas of road works but generally less traffic than the A3 and the A8 between Muhlingen and Kreuz Ulm and Limbach to Augsburg is also being widened from 2 to 3 lanes per direction but certainly has less risk of major delays than A3/A9.


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## Road_UK

I was going to use that route tomorrow. I always use A3/A9, because until apparently recently there were only some minor works going on at Würzburg and some between Frankfurt-Cologne. For me it it was the best route ever compared to that stinking Stuttgart-Heilbronn-Koblenz route....

For what did they dig the A9/A3 route up again for? They only just finished it...


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## UK86

UK also has too much money to spend on roads that don't need fixing either.


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## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> For what did they dig the A9/A3 route up again for? They only just finished it...


A9 b/n Munich and Ingolstadt: works for future shoulder running.
A3 west of AK Fürth/Erlangen: Replacing the Rhine-Main-Danube-Canal-Bridge. That's the first step for 2x3 widening b/n A7 and A73. I drove there once in the past weeks and it was very congested in the afternoon (2PM - on a Thursday IIRC).
The A3 works near Würzburg are no problem, but the viaduct replacement should begin this summer which will affect to traffic.
A3 east of Aschaffenburg: 2x3 widening ongoing.
A3 near Limburg: Renovation of 9 bridges and replacement of the viaduct near Limburg.


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## Road_UK

Leaving tomorrow 9am Mayrhofen to Haarlem. I always preferred A9/A3. I don't like the Stuttgart option. What is your suggestion, Michi?


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## Road_UK

Reutte-Ulm-Stuttgart crossed my mind. I just don't like sitting in dickhead traffic all day. That's why I always prefer A3. Stuttgart is always congested.


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## MichiH

^^ I would take A9/A3 anyway .


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## Road_UK

You're a star! And that's what I'm doing!


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## MichiH

I've just answered what they are doing there .

I will also drive on the A3 tomorrow but I will start at 6AM so I will be off when you will arrive there .


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## Road_UK

From where to where? Have a safe one!


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## MichiH

On A3 from west of Würzburg to Koblenz.


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## MichiH

You should avoid this Autobahns next weekend :
 source: welt.de

I like the A6 west of Frankfurt .


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## Attus

Beautiful. Just like if A1 and A3 (from all directions towards Leverkusen) weren't congested every day


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## Road_UK

Yeah. I've got some business to attend to here, so I'm leaving at 9am, just in time to join the Cologne rush hour.


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## mcarling

MichiH said:


> I think the A39 is more important than the A14. Many people had preferred having a X solution (Hamburg - Magdeburg and Wolfsburg - Schwerin) like the A61/A63 in Rhineland-Palatinate instead of the H solution (the "-" would be the new B190n).


I agree with the X solution. I think Hamburg - Magdeburg is the more important one, followed by Wolfsburg - Schwerin.


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## Rohne

Neither X nor H is that urgently needed. Better spent the money for upgrading existing lines, especially around Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Rhein/Ruhr.


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## ChrisZwolle

*TomTom Congestion Index*

http://www.tomtom.com/news/category.php?ID=4&NID=1539&Year=2014&Language=3

1. Stuttgart 29% (-4% zum Vorjahr)
2. Hamburg 28% (-3%)
3. Berlin 27% (-2%)
4. München 26% (+2%)
5. Köln 25% (-3%)
6. Frankfurt am Main 24% (+2%)
7. Düsseldorf 19% (+1%)
8. Westl. Ruhrgebiet 19% (+1%)
9. Bremen 17% (+2%)
10. Östl. Ruhrgebiet 17% (+1%)


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## MichiH

mcarling said:


> I agree with the X solution. I think Hamburg - Magdeburg is the more important one, followed by Wolfsburg - Schwerin.


I think Hamburg - Wolfsburg is more important than Wolfsburg - Schwerin.
1. Hamburg - Magedeburg
2. Hamburg - Wolfsburg
3. Schwerin - Magdeburg
4. Schwerin - Wolfsburg



Rohne said:


> Neither X nor H is that urgently needed. Better spent the money for upgrading existing lines, especially around Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Rhein/Ruhr.


I agree regarding Frankfurt: A66/A661 completion, A3 2x4 from the NRW border to the Bavarian border and A5 2x5 from Gambach to Darmstadt etcetera would be sufficient (and more urgent than A39 etcetera) b/c there are also alternatives routes (A66, A67, A45, A60, A61,...).

But even 2x4 A81 b/n Heilbronn and Böblingen, 2x5 A8 Leonberg - AK Stuttgart, 2x4 AK Stuttgart - Wendlingen would not solve the Stuttgart congestion problem. Stuttgart needs alternative routes, not simple upgrades.

Rhein/Ruhr.... I don't think that the problem can be reduced significantly by simple upgrades of existing Autobahns.

I think it is necessary to create a good Autobahn network in the north too (e.g. to relieve Hamburg). The priority is a different story. The German budget plan is state dependent, not arranged to the demand. I think there is a chance to build A14 (mostly EU funded), A20, A21, A25, A26 and A39 within the next 20..30 years. I prefer alternative routes instead of widen existing routes to 2x4 or 2x5 (A1, A7).


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## Rohne

Well, if more than 400km (of overall hardly more than 1000km) of completeley new stretches are "needed" to relieve a rather small urban area of 2,5 million inhabitants (with a metro area of less then 4 million), than there's something wrong. I am ok with completion of A23, A26 and the stretches of A20 between A1 and A7 as well as A21 between A1 and A25. But everything else is a bit over the top.
I agree that Stuttgart would need the formerly planned southern part of the A45 Mundelsheim - Plochingen, but this one is quite unrealistic. And even if it is built, I doubt that at least A8 Leonberg - Degerloch would not need 2x4 lanes.


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## MichiH

Rohne said:


> Well, if more than 400km (of overall hardly more than 1000km) of completeley new stretches are "needed" to relieve a rather small urban area of 2,5 million inhabitants (with a metro area of less then 4 million), than there's something wrong. I am ok with completion of A23, A26 and the stretches of A20 between A1 and A7 as well as A21 between A1 and A25. But everything else is a bit over the top.


It's not only to relieve Hamburg. The traffic will also increase through the new Fehmarnbelt crossing. Northern Germany is less developed than the south. There is no network yet.

But I agree, that the priorities should be different. As mentioned before, I think that the northern network will not be completed till 2040.



Rohne said:


> I agree that Stuttgart would need the formerly planned southern part of the A45 Mundelsheim - Plochingen, but this one is quite unrealistic. And even if it is built, I doubt that at least A8 Leonberg - Degerloch would not need 2x4 lanes.


Agree. Both is needed. And more!


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## MichiH

*A9 widening in Thuringia*



ChrisZwolle said:


> *Reichsautobahn A9 Triptis - Schleiz*
> 
> This video follows the A9 south, which still resembles the 1930's Reichsautobahn, with bad concrete, no shoulders and a narrow alignment. This is the last section to be widened to 2x3 lanes.


The northernmost 3km part is 2x3 in service now (OSM; source). The remaining 16km b/n Triptis and Schleiz will be completed until late 2014. It is a PPP project. The works began in October 2011. Project page.


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## MichiH

*A94 Munich - Passau*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> - The construction of the _*Lappachtalbrücke*_ (OSM) started last week. The viaduct has a length of 287m and costs 14 million €. It is located on the *A94 between AS Lengdorf and AS Dorfen*. The PPP bidding for building the entire A94 from AS _Pastetten_ to AS _Heldenstein_ is announced to be probably started in 2015 :nuts:.
> 
> 
> 
> The PPP was tendered, see press release. Contract time: 30 years. Construction time: 2016-2019. Length of road to be built: 33km. Length of road to be operated: 77km. See also tender.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are four candidates. They will probably be asked in May 2014 to deliver a practical bid until late 2014. The PPP contract shall be placed in late 2015.
Click to expand...

The A94 PPP contract shall be placed in fall 2015, the main works shall begin in early 2016 and the completion shall be at the latest in late September 2016 according to an announcement of the ABDSB (road authority of southern Bavaria). Still 4 cancidates. They got the detailed documents now. The concession section is b/n Pastetten and Marktl (77km; 30 years). The company will not get the truck toll incomes b/c it is too difficult for the company to calculate the incomes. They will get money from the German state. Source.


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## Road_UK

MichiH said:


> ^^ I would take A9/A3 anyway .


So I've been a stubborn dickhead, and went via Reutte-Ulm-Stuttgart-Koblenz and Venlo. Spent a lot of hours stuck in traffic in roadworks. But keeping up to date on traffic with Bayern3, SWF3 and WDR2 the A9/A3 route would have been just as bad.


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## ChrisZwolle

I'll be driving through Northern Germany on Sunday. I expect no major traffic problems then, everybody who wants to get away for the long weekend is already on their destination. The route is Meppen - Hamburg - Flensburg. But I will monitor traffic information to see if there are any problems at Hamburg. I can also take A1-A21-B205 to Neumünster. Maybe I'll do that anyway, I haven't driven B205 yet, but I can also drive that on the way back, as I have a solid 1,000 km to drive on Sunday.


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## MichiH

^^ The early bird catches the worm


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## Heico-M

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'll be driving through Northern Germany on Sunday. I expect no major traffic problems then, everybody who wants to get away for the long weekend is already on their destination. The route is Meppen - Hamburg - Flensburg. But I will monitor traffic information to see if there are any problems at Hamburg. I can also take A1-A21-B205 to Neumünster. Maybe I'll do that anyway, I haven't driven B205 yet, but I can also drive that on the way back, as I have a solid 1,000 km to drive on Sunday.


B205 is okay, it has a 10km stretch where overtaking is forbidden, which usually means, that on a weekday, you'll be sure to stick behind a truck doing 60 km/h (which is the speed limit for trucks on B roads). But you are driving Sunday, so no trucks (well, almost). But the A 1 around Hamburg is always difficult, too.


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## hseugut

Did AAchen Hamburg for the fourth time in 5 years, and again for the fourth time I remained stuck because of roadworks and traffic jams .... Germany has a lot to do to improve its autobahnen


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## Autobahnftw

Hi!

What road works can i expect on A1 puttgarden-hamburg, A7 hamburg-wurzburg and A3 wurzburg-passau? i will travel june-july.


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## MichiH

^^ http://www.bast.de/DE/FB-F/Baustelleninformation/baustelleninformation_hidden_node.html


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## MichiH

*A6 Mannheim - Heilbronn - Nuremberg*

The *A6 b/n AK Walldorf* (A5; near _Mannheim_/_Heidelberg_) *and AK Weinsberg* (A81; near _Heilbronn_) already features 3 lanes eastwards, partial w/o hard shoulders. Westwards, there are still two gaps with 2 lanes only. The section has a length of 54km (OSM) and is the main connection b/n France and Czech Republic. The AADT was b/n 64,000 and 89,000 vehicles/day in 2010, the truck share was about 20% (source).

The 1348 meter long Neckarbrücke viaduct near Heilbronn must be renewed (OSM; age of 57 years). The number of lanes was reduced from 3 to 2 lanes last October to avoid more damage (fatigue crack in the welding seams) which causes daily congestion (this section has the maximum AADT of 89,000). The plan approval order was passed in 1998 but the plans have been modified and a new plan approval procedure was started in April 2014.

The plan approval orders for the two other sections were passed in July 2012 (7.6km section) or April 2013 (10.8km section). It is upgrade the A6 as a PPP project. The press officer of the Federal Minstry of Transport has recently announced that the award procedure will take two years, the works could been started in 2016/17. A 8.7km section near _Sinsheim_ was built in 2010/11.

It is also planned to widen the remaining 2x2 sections of the *A6 b/n Heilbronn and Schwabach* (west of Nuremberg) to 2x3 lanes where the AADT was b/n 48,000 and 60,000 vehicles/day in 2010. The truck share is b/n 23 and 28%. It is also planned to be realized as PPP until 2025 (OSM; 135km).

A 6.2km section b/n *Roth (B2 i/c) and Nuremberg-South (A73 i/c)* was widened to 2x3 in 2009/10. The plan approval order for the 6.2km section b/n *Schwabach-West and Roth* was passed in December 2011, the plan approval order for the 3.7km section from *east of the A73 i/c Nuremberg-South and west of the A3 i/c Nuremberg-East* was passed in November 2009. The last section, the 1.0km upgrade and reconstruction of the *Nuremberg-East i/c* is still in planning stage. OSM. AADT 2010: 66,000 to 76,000, truck share 22%. The number of lanes is described on autobahnatlas-online.de.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

MichiH said:


> The northernmost 3km part is 2x3 in service now (OSM; source). The remaining 16km b/n Triptis and Schleiz will be completed until late 2014. It is a PPP project. The works began in October 2011. Project page.


^^
If I remember correctly the A2 is currently the longest 2x3 Autobahn in Germany (and maybe in Europe).
Will the A9 break this record after this last stretch between Triptis and Schleiz is completed? :hmm:


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## ChrisZwolle

I believe there are no 2x3 through lanes at Kreuz Hermsdorf. But if you ignore that, it will be the longest 2x3 in Germany. It is very likely the longest 2x3 in Europe.


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## MichiH

^^ Correct, there are only 2 lanes near the AK Hermsdorf (A4). In addition, there are only 2 southbound lanes within the AD Bayerisches Vogtland (A72).

The A9 widening within the AK Hermsdorf is the last remaining Thuringian Autobahn project in the BVWP. It was planned to start works in fall 2008, meanwhile it is unlikely that works will begin this decade.


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## flierfy

MichiH said:


> ^^ Correct, there are only 2 lanes near the AK Hermsdorf (A4). In addition, there are only 2 southbound lanes within the AD Bayerisches Vogtland (A72).


... as well as through Nürnberg junction. Not to mention the final few kilometres in München where the motorway slims down gradually towards its southern terminus.
Unlike the A 2, the A 9 will never be entirely 6 lanes wide. A more likely candidate to rival the A 2 in this regard is the A 5 though. We might be still two or three decades away from a completely 6 lanes wide A 5. It is, however, thinkable that this motorway achieves this status one day.


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## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


> ^^ Correct, there are only 2 lanes near the AK Hermsdorf (A4).


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## 3locations

Strecke zwischen Appenweier und Offenburg (Ortenau) soll im Juli fertig werden. Sechsspurige A5-Freigabe vor den Sommerferien => http://www.bo.de/lokales/ortenau/sechsspurige-5-freigabe-noch-vor-den-sommerferien


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## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


> In addition, there are only 2 southbound lanes within the AD Bayerisches Vogtland (A72).


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## pmaciej7

flierfy said:


> ... as well as through Nürnberg junction.


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## MichiH

3locations said:


> Strecke zwischen Appenweier und Offenburg (Ortenau) soll im Juli fertig werden. Sechsspurige A5-Freigabe vor den Sommerferien => http://www.bo.de/lokales/ortenau/sechsspurige-5-freigabe-noch-vor-den-sommerferien


I was too lazy to post it b/c I couldn't find a former post about it..... We are in the English forum, so in English, please:

The works on the last 2.8km section of the A5 PPP project b/n Appenweier and Offenburg will resume in two weeks and will be completed in July. The works were almost completed last fall, but the contractor said, they have to save money b/c the truck incomes are lower than expected. According to the contract the widening must be completed until 30th September 2014.
After the completion of the resumed works, the entire 2x3 widening b/n Baden-Baden and Offburg will be completed (>40km). The works began in 2010.


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## MichiH

flierfy said:


> Not to mention the final few kilometres in München


@pmaciej7: No pics from Munich?

Some pics from autobahn-bilder.de, taken by sj1.

Southwards:

































Northwards:


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## Autoputevi kao hobi

What is the longest tunnel in Germany ?


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## flierfy

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> What is the longest tunnel in Germany ?


The longest tunnel is probably the U7 in Berlin. This is a metro line, however. And I presume you are looking for road tunnels rather. The longest road tunnel in Germany is currently the Rennsteigtunnel (A 71). And with no tunnel project in sight that is longer than the 7'900 m of the Rennsteigtunnel, it could stay the longest road tunnel for decades to come.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> What is the longest tunnel in Germany ?





flierfy said:


> The longest tunnel is probably the U7 in Berlin. This is a metro line, however. And I presume you are looking for road tunnels rather. The longest road tunnel in Germany is currently the Rennsteigtunnel (A 71). And with no tunnel project in sight that is longer than the 7'900 m of the Rennsteigtunnel, it could stay the longest road tunnel for decades to come.



^^
Well that´s true but there is still the planned Fehmarnbelt Tunnel between Germany and Denmark whose construction should start next year. :yes:
This tunnel will be *18 km* long but I don´t know how much of it will be on the German side. :dunno:


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## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


> @pmaciej7: No pics from Munich?
> 
> Southwards:
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> Last time i drove there in pre-digital-camera (also pre-SSC) era :)
> 
> -----------
> 
> Rennsteigtunnel
> 
> -> Schweinfurt
> [IMG]http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8489/jjid.jpg
> 
> -> Erfurt


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## MichiH

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> What is the longest tunnel *in* Germany ?





Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> Well that´s true but there is still the planned Fehmarnbelt Tunnel between Germany and Denmark whose construction should start next year. :yes:
> This tunnel will be *18 km* long but I don´t know how much of it will be on the German side. :dunno:


The Fehmarnbelt tunnel is not *in *Germany, it's *between *Germany and Denmark . The planned A20 Elbtunnel will be 6.5km long - shorter than the A71 Rennsteigtunnel.


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## cinxxx

Bavarian concrete motorways are limited to 80 km/h because of (imaginary) damages :gaah:
Most of the people drive over 110 though...


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## Fargo Wolf

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> Well that´s true but there is still the planned Fehmarnbelt Tunnel between Germany and Denmark whose construction should start next year.


Neat!!!!


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The future A26 will connect the future A20 with the A7 west of _Hamburg_ and the A1 east of _Hamburg_.
> The first of 8 sections is in service since October 2010. The A26 begins at AS _Stade_-South and ends at AS _Horneburg_ (11.2km; 180 million €; OSM) Section 2 is u/c since summer 2006 (9.1km; OSM). Completion maybe in 2018.
> Here some pics of the construction (taken by *IOOI* in April 2013):


The carriageway towards _Stade_ on Section 2.1 (4.6km) will be opened for cars in December 2014. It will only be possible to drive by car etcetera (but not by truck) b/n i/c _Jork_ and i/c _Horneburg_. After completion of section 2.2 from i/c _Jork_ to i/c _Buxtehude_ (4.5km) and section 3 b/n i/c _Buxtehude_ and i/c _Neu Wulmstorf_ (4.1km) in December 2020, section 2.1 will be entirely opened for traffic too. The works on section 2.1 and 2.2 have been started in summer 2006. The works on section 3 have been started in September 2013.

Some pics taken by _*IOOI*_ on Saturday:



> Ich habe das schöne Wetter gestern genutzt und mal wieder die Baustelle der A26 befahren — mit dem Fahrrad. Dabei war ein deutlicher Fortschritt seit meinem letzten Besuch zu erkennen: Zwischen der AS Horneburg und der künftigen AS Jork liegt nun Asphalt, Richtung Stade meine ich sogar schon die Deckschicht. Dann ist aber erst einmal Schluss mit dem Ausbau, zwischen Jork und Buxtehude befindet sich nach wie vor in alter Schönheit der Vorbelastungsdamm. An dessen Ende kann man über die Este blicken — die geplante Brücke darüber hatte ja zu einigen Diskussionen geführt. Auf der anderen Seite der Este war erst einmal nicht viel zu erkennen, erst als ich näher rangefahren bin sah ich ein paar eigenartige Abzäunungen auf der Wiese stehen und in weiterer Ferne Baufahrzeuge. Nach einigem Hin und Her hab ich dann auch die Baustraße gefunden, welche seit Ende letzen Jahres in Bau sein soll. Diese bin ich dann abgefahren und werde sie anhand meines GPS Tracks dann auch gleich noch in OSM eintragen. Aber seht selbst. Die Bilder sind ebenfalls mit GPS-Daten versehen so dass Ihr sie auf einer Karte einordnen könnt.
> 
> 
> 
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> AS Horneburg, Abfahrt aus Richtung Hamburg
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> AS Horneburg, Blick Richtung Horneburg/Stade
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> Blick Richtung Hamburg
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> Eine Brücke über einen der vielen Kanäle
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> Beide Fahrspuren, Blick Rictung Horneburg/Stade
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> Ein Wirtschaftsweg kreuzt. Diese Brücke ist mittlerweile auch fertig und unter Verkehr
> 
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> 
> Noch einmal aus der Nähe …
> 
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> Brückenauffahrt
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> fast auf der Brücke
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> Blick von der Brücke Richtung Horneburg/Stade …
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> … und Richtung Hamburg
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> Die nördliche Brückenauffahrt
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> noch eine Kanalbrücke
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> AS Jork
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> AS Jork, Abfahrt Richtung Süden
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> hier wird ein weiterer Wirtschaftsweg kreuzen.
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> Das Ende des Vorbelastungsdammes
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> aber kurz vor dem Ende des Dammes kommt noch ein Tunnel für einen Wirtschaftsweg.
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> Das Ende des Dammes von seinem Fuße aus gesehen.
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> später (in wieviel Jahren?) wird die Autobahn durch dieses Naturschutzgebiet führen. Noch haben die Wachtelkönige ihre Ruhe …


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## Deadeye Reloaded

*Construction update of the Jagdberg Tunnel on the A4 near Jena.*

*The pictures were taken on 27.05.2014.* 

Just for comparison: Here are the pictures from the last construction update (17.04.2014).


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## OulaL

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> Well that´s true but there is still the planned Fehmarnbelt Tunnel between Germany and Denmark whose construction should start next year. :yes:
> This tunnel will be *18 km* long but I don´t know how much of it will be on the German side. :dunno:


According to http://www.openstreetmap.org/ roughly a 1/3 of the length of the tunnel will be located within the German area, international area and Danish area each.

It's an interesting question which law is to be enforced within the international area. I'd guess it will be Danish, since the company in charge is 100 % owned by the Kingdom of Denmark anyway.


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is very likely the longest 2x3 in Europe.


Other than at M6 J32 (where it goes down to two lanes northbound), it's 510km from Catthorpe to central Glasgow on the M6-M74 route - nearly 100km more than the A2 is long (A5 and A9 would beat it if they get finished). However parts are 2x4, which might rule it out, as might the silly numbering 

You could, for a short while, drive from the M8/M77 junction in Glasgow south to Staples Corner in London with a lane either side of you all the way (of course, such middle lane hogging would earn you a lot of wrath from people). I believe, however, that the new bridge at Catthorpe is only 2 lanes, and northbound through the M55 junction hasn't been widened to 3 lanes.


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## MichiH

sotonsi said:


> it's 510km from Catthorpe to central Glasgow on the M6-M74 route - nearly 100km more than the A2 is long


The A2 has a length of 473km.


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## mcarling

OulaL said:


> According to http://www.openstreetmap.org/ roughly a 1/3 of the length of the tunnel will be located within the German area, international area and Danish area each.
> 
> It's an interesting question which law is to be enforced within the international area. I'd guess it will be Danish, since the company in charge is 100 % owned by the Kingdom of Denmark anyway.


What you call the "international area" is entirely within the contiguous zones of Denmark and Germany (not shown by openstreetmap). Countries have limited rights to enforce their laws within their contiguous zones (less than in their own territory, but more than in their exclusive economic zones). I don't believe there has been any test case concerning whether or not a country may enforce traffic laws in its contiguous zone.


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## kato2k8

Only in pursuit.


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## MichiH

*Official proposal list BVWP 2015*



MichiH said:


> The next step is to complete the data, remove duplicated and to merge projects. The evaluation (e.g. cost-benefit analysis) will start in the 2nd half-year 2014 and will last far into 2015. Afterwards, the projects will be categorized (priorities).


The traffic forecasting 2030 was published today. The forecast is the base for the BVWP cost-benefit analysis, see press release.

The forecast compares the traffic increase 2010 with 2030. The freight transportation will increase by 38% (ton-km), the passenger transportation will increase by 13% (passenger-km):
- Freight transport: Border-crossing traffic will increase by 42%, transit traffic by 52% and inland traffic by 31%. Railway + 43%, truck + 39%, inland waterway craft + 23%.
- The motorized passenger transportation will increase by 10% in spite of population decrease.


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## MichiH

*B535 Schwetzingen*



MichiH said:


> The construction of the *B535 Schwetzingen and Plankstadt bypass* was started in February 2002. The first and the second stage were already opened in 2006, the third stage in December 2010. The second stage has only one carriageway, also all overpasses were built for one carriageway. All other stages have two carriageways, but the construction of the *2nd carriageway* for the 2nd stage have also started in the meantime. The overpasses must be replaced (OSM). It will be completed in 2015 (see press release; official project page). The B535 bypass is similar with the route of the formerly planned A655.


The Regional Administrative Authority Karlsruhe and the Deutsche Bahn finally agreed after years that the new overpass can be replaced. The bidding shall begin as soon as possible. The completion of the B535 Schwetzingen bypass is delayed until mid 2016. Source.


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## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*



MichiH said:


> The next two plan approval orders are challenged (among others by BUND):
> - AS _Lüderitz_ to _Dolle_ (12.5km; 72.6 million €)
> - _Dolle_ to AS _Colbitz_ (10.8km; 77 million €)
> The BVerwG trials will be in 2014. It is planned to build both section in common.





MichiH said:


> The court decision (for Dolle-Colbitz) was published on 8th January. The plan approval order (signed in December 2012) is illegal and not executable, see press release.
> The problems can be fixed with an additional plan approval procedure.


The trial for the A14 _Lüderitz_-_Dolle_ section will not took place soon. The Federal Administrative Court wants to wait until the _Dolle_-_Colbitz_ plan approval order is legal. A groundbreaking before 2017 is unlikely. Source.



MichiH said:


> The first 16.2km long section from AK _Schwerin_ to AS _Ludwigslust-Süd_ is currently under construction (140 million €). The works have started in November 2012 and are estimated to be completed end of 2015.
> The next 9.8km section to AS _Groß Warnow_ has building law. The plan-approval order was passed in November 2012. The construction is expected to start in 2014.


The planned groundbreaking in 2015 is timing at risk. The Bund gave an agreement to provide funds but it has not yet provided the construction sum of 88 million €. Speaker of Federal Ministry of Transort: not yet decided. The negotiations will start after the Federal budget 2014 is passed. If the funds will not be available in 2014, the preliminary works of the _Ludwigslust_-_Groß Warnow_ section cannot be started till 2016.

In general, only 25% of the A14 funds are available. 3 of 16 sections are u/c. The A14 alignment at the river Elbe crossing is not yet found. The government still want to complete the A14 until 2020. EU funding is also scheduled. Source.


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## piotr71

*B 9, Bonn - Koblenz*

Here is a pretty interesting stretch of B 9 national road located alongside Rhein river. It consists of some urban and extra urban bits including motor vehicles only sections.


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## MichiH

*Cologne beltway (A1/A3/A4)*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The *A1 from Leverkusen to Köln* (OSM) was closed for trucks some weeks ago. The Rhine viaduct is decrepit and must be renewed. The new viaduct shall be widened to 2x4 lanes. There are discussions to built a tunnel below the Rhine instead of a new viaduct. There are also discussions regarding alternative viaducts to the south or to the north of the current A1 viaduct. Also a housing tunnel instead of the stilt brigdes in Leverkusen is proposed.
> 
> 
> 
> Some info about the A1 Rhine crossing b/n _Leverkusen_ and _Cologne_.
> 
> The Federal Minister of Transport Peter Ramsauer visited the bridge last week: > click < (with pics).
> 
> Estimated time schedule:
> - 2016 plan approval order
> - 2020 completion of the northern bridge
> - 2023 completion of the southern bridge (after demolition of the old one)
> 
> Costs: 220 million €.
> 
> The bridge was closed for vehicles > 3,5t for 92 days (December 2012 to March 2013). The economic harm was 80 million €.
Click to expand...

There is a presentation about the upgrade plans of the Cologne beltway: http://www.ihk-koeln.de/upload/Vortrag_Jansen_gekuerzt_33391.pdf.

The focus is on the replacement of the A1 Rhine bridge, which includes an upgrade to 2x4 lanes b/n i/c Cologne-Niehl and i/c AK Leverkusen (A3).

Facts:
Page 2: The AADT is about 120,000 vehicles/day on the northern (13% truck share), western (16% truck share) and southern beltway (10% truck share). The AADT on the eastern beltway is about 170,000 vehicles/day (10% truck share).
Page 5&6: Reconstruction of the i/c AK Cologne-West (A1/A4). completion: 2016.
Page 7: The A1 b/n i/c Bocklemünd and i/c AK Cologne-North (A1/A57) is currently u/c. The section gets hard shoulders until spring 2015.
Page 8: The works for the A3 upgrade b/n i/c Leverkusen and i/c Cologne-Mühlheim will start in late 2014. The Autobahn will be widened to 2x4 lanes until early 2017.
Page 9: Some minor works at the i/c AK Leverkusen (A1/A3) will be done in summer and fall 2014 (bracing? of the bridge).

Page 10 to 26: Replacement of the A1 Rhine bridge and 2x4 upgrade of the A1 b/n Cologne-Niehl and i/c AK Leverkusen including the replacement of i/c AK Leverkusen-West (A59) and i/c AK Leverkusen (A3) plus the 2x4 widening b/n i/c AK Leverkusen and i/c Leverkusen.
Page 20: The A1 is planned to feature 2x4 lanes continuously. There will be 5 lanes for each direction on the Rhine bridge.
Page 25: The replacement of the bridge shall start in 2017. The first bridge shall be completed until 2020.

The BVWP 2015 proposal list contains a lot of projcts around Cologne. It is planned to upgrade the entire beltway (total length: ~52km) to 2x4 lanes, except the recently upgraded section b/n AK Cologne-West (A4) and AK Cologne-North (A57); ~9km.


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## piotr71

*B1, Unna - Dortmund*


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## piotr71

*A48, Koblenz Nord - Dernbach*


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## MichiH

*A1 Rhine bridge b/n Cologne and Leverkusen*



MichiH said:


> The bridge was closed for vehicles > 3.5t for 92 days (December 2012 to March 2013). The economic harm was 80 million €.


The A1 Rhine bridge will be closed for vehicles > 3.5t again. The closure begins at midnight. There are too much vibrations. The speed limit was already reduced to 60km/h (including speed control). Source.

I guess the existing damages have been checked today at which they've found aggravation.


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## MichiH

*A1 Rhine bridge b/n Cologne and Leverkusen*

^^ http://www.strassen.nrw.de/service/presse/meldungen/2014/140616-02.html

The maintenance works will last at minimum three month. The new damages are cracks in the cables ("Risse in den Seilkammern"). There are currently four speed control stations to monitor the abidance of 60km/h. It is also planned to install stations to control the weight. A breach costs 75 €. One truck stresses the brigde as much as 60,000 cars.


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## Heico-M

Eulanthe said:


> As I understand it, lowering the tax and introducing the vignette is the only legal route, unless Germany required all vehicles on German roads to pay the road tax.
> 
> But I don't think it will happen. Merkel was against the vignette in the 2013 election campaign, and the SPD won't cry if the CSU don't get their pet policy into law. The experts are coming out against it, and they might lose significant income from the car tax if they have to reduce the cost by 100 Euro/year.
> 
> Including it in the car tax won't happen, as it would discriminate against EU citizens if the cost of the tax is lower than the cost of the vignette.


One should not forget that the CSU will lose a significant number of votes at the next election(s). 

One scenario: The vignette will come, for everyone, of course. The car tax will remain as it is. If anyone complains, they'll shrug their shoulders and say "it is the EU's fault" (very popular at the moment).
Merkels promise will be broken, CDU and CSU voted down at the federal election 2017 and we'll get a socialist chancellor in a coalition with the Greens and the neo-communists. 

I just hope that Merkel is man enough to stop this before it is too late.


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## ChrisZwolle

As I understand, some cars have an annual road tax of less than € 100 per year. So by compensating them for the vignette, it would actually cost money.


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## MichiH

^^ Especially eco-friendly cars have taxes < 100 €. The politicians want to grant a sales discount on eco-friendly cars...........


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## cinxxx

^^I pay 58 euros per year for example for my Seat Leon 5F


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## ChrisZwolle

I paid more than that for my last car _every month_.


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## MichiH

My car has a 2.0 liter Diesel engine. I have to pay about 300 €. In addition, I have to pay mineral oil taxes. It's 0.4704 € per liter Diesel, containing 0.154 € per liter eco-tax. Of course, the VAT is on the price including these taxes. If you buy about 100 liter Diesel, you have to pay about 58 € for taxes.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzinpreis#Steuern_und_Abgaben_in_Deutschland


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## ChrisZwolle

Diesel cars have outrageous road taxes in the Netherlands, most people pay over € 1,200 per year, unless the car is very light (but diesel cars are often heavier).


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## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
That´s insane! :crazy:

I pay for my Audi A3 1.9 diesel 293€uro a year. My parents have two heavy SUVs diesel and with high taxes like in Holland they would have to drive VW Polos or Smarts instead. hno:


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## Ni3lS

It is insane. My parents just got a new C-max 2.0 diesel and pay up to 1200 per year. Still very cheap compared to the S-max 2.2 diesel they had before this one, I think it almost reached 1500 in yearly taxes.


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## Shenkey

Heico-M said:


> One should not forget that the CSU will lose a significant number of votes at the next election(s).


CSU already lost votes at euro elections


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## MichiH

*A8 Albaufstieg*



MichiH said:


> AS _Mühlhausen_ – west of AS _Merklingen _("Albaufstieg"; OSM; ~8km; realignment; plan approval procedure stopped due to open funding concept)


The plan approval procedure began in 2004. It was stopped by the Federal Ministry of Transport due to a open funding concept. They tried to find an interested party who wants to operate the 7.5km long toll section (with a toll station). It was unsuccessful.

It is a very important request of the Green (!) Minister of Transport from Baden-Württemberg, Mr. Hermann, to get a 2x3 Autobahn b/n Karlsruhe and Munich. He asked multiple times to restart the plan approval procedure. Finally, the Federal Ministry of Transport agreed. They instructed the state's ministry to restart the planning procedure. Mr. Hermann is very happy now. The traffic analysis and the eco-studies were completed in 2004 but they are out-dated now and must be renewed. This will last at minimum one year. The Minister also wants to take the chance to involve the citizens. He is going to push on the project to start the project as one of the first new BVWP 2015 projects. See press release. It also provides a map of the new route.

A today's news article quotes Mr. Hermann, that the construction should begin in 2018. The entire A8 b/n Karlsruhe and Munich (that means also the Pforzheim section which is also in Baden-Württemberg) will be completed in 2025. Costs: 500 million € plus X. The 80 year old bridges have reached the end of their useful life.

:weird:


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## ChrisZwolle

That makes you wonder if it's better to go ahead with 2x4 lanes for the Albaufstieg itself.


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## MichiH

^^ The AADT was only 65,000 vehicles per day in 2010 (15.8% truck share). But I am sure, that Bavaria would built a 4th lane on the climbing carriageway.


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## Road_UK

If it was going to be 2x3 all the way from Karlsruhe to Munich, there'd be some hefty engineering going on at the Swabische Alb...


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## Eulanthe

Ni3lS said:


> It is insane. My parents just got a new C-max 2.0 diesel and pay up to 1200 per year. Still very cheap compared to the S-max 2.2 diesel they had before this one, I think it almost reached 1500 in yearly taxes.


I paid... nothing. :lol:



Heico-m said:


> I just hope that Merkel is man enough to stop this before it is too late.


The lack of any real political will suggests that it won't happen.


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## Heico-M

Well, at least until she states Mr Dobrindt her "fullest trust" (vollstes Vertrauen), that would be the ultimate alarm sign.

Previous receivers of Merkel's trust were Karl Theodor zu Guttenberg, Norbert Röttgen and not least President Wulff. :cheers:

But seriously: The car toll has many legal obstacles to face, I don't believe it will come short term.

And of course, the vignette is way too simple and expresses a lack of justice.
Those who drive less will pay more per km. So we need a km-based payment, satellite based, with an obligatory, built-in on-board-unit. 
We are Germans, after all, we do things thoroughly and exact.

Oh, and wait: we need more social justice. The toll must be depending on the driver's income. 

:lol:


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## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
That´s the German way! :cheers:


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## Kanadzie

^^ But then, NSA will hack positions of all the Mantafahrer in real-time and post them to Google :lol:


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## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> If it was going to be 2x3 all the way from Karlsruhe to Munich, there'd be some hefty engineering going on at the Swabische Alb...


The press release is about the Schwäbische Alb . Look at the map, it contains two tunnel and two viaducts. The plans are out-dated, I guess the 7.5km section will cost more than 1 billion € (Minster Hermann said 500 million € plus X).


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## ChrisZwolle

Abrupt altitude differences are best dealt with through tunnels. That way you can avoid steep stretches with snaking roadways, much like the Jagdbergtunnel near Jena, or Tunnel Götschka in Austrian S10 north of Linz.


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## Eulanthe

Attus said:


> Actually the toll was the idea of CSU, and this party exits only in Bavaria. So people that don't live in bavaria (approx. 85% of German population) did not vote in favor of any toll. Additionally, CSU had approx. 50% in Bavaria, which is quite impressive but in this case it means that only 8% of the German population voted for CSU (more precisely it was 8.1% of the votes in all-German level).


Which is why I think we'll see some compromise that might allow Bavaria to go ahead with some local tolling agreements. 

For what it's worth, if I knew a friendly professor of law, I'd love to challenge the way that short term visitors are penalised when buying vignettes in Europe.


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## MichiH

Eulanthe said:


> Which is why I think we'll see some compromise that might allow Bavaria to go ahead with some *local tolling agreements*.


Nope!


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## mcarling

Eulanthe said:


> For what it's worth, if I knew a friendly professor of law, I'd love to challenge the way that short term visitors are penalised when buying vignettes in Europe.


I think that would be an uphill case. There is lower hanging fruit. However, if you want to proceed, write to the EU ombudsman and complain. If they get enough complaints and if they think they have a strong enough case, the Commission may take up the idea.


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## mcarling

MichiH said:


> Wahl des geringeren Übels (voting the lower evil).


Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.


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## MichiH

mcarling said:


> Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.


What's the solution, don't vote? Vote a protest party like the anti EU party AfD? Found an own party?

What would you vote if you would like the CDU politics but you live in Bavaria?


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## flierfy

Attus said:


> Actually the toll was the idea of CSU, and this party exits only in Bavaria. So people that don't live in bavaria (approx. 85% of German population) did not vote in favor of any toll. Additionally, CSU had approx. 50% in Bavaria, which is quite impressive but in this case it means that only 8% of the German population voted for CSU (more precisely it was 8.1% of the votes in all-German level).


58% voted for the CSU in Berchtesgadener Land. That's a majority for this party and indirectly for road tolls as well.


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## mcarling

MichiH said:


> What's the solution, don't vote? Vote a protest party like the anti EU party AfD? Found an own party?
> 
> What would you vote if you would like the CDU politics but you live in Bavaria?


Every party and every candidate I have ever voted for (in more than 30 years of elections) was not expected to win and none did win. I have no regrets. Elections do more than just determine winners. They are the most serious of opinion polls, because other opinion polls are merely stated preferences while elections are revealed preferences. The vote results of small parties often have a profound effect on future policies, as larger parties move in the political direction of smaller parties with rising support in an attempt to co-opt their voters.


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## Suburbanist

I think Germany builds and replaces infrastructure at a slightly low overall rate of completion. The problem is not the total amount of road building, but the fact it is spread too thin among many projects simultaneously. 

This means you have a high number of small projects being active at any given time. 

While this might seem "fair", the end result is that more money is spent, because there are some fixed costs associated with each project/site regardless of level of activity, hence the faster you complete them, the lower these costs/km built will be.

Some countries like Netherlands adopt a different approach: not many simultaneous projects, and some with start dates placed in the future, several years from now. However, once projects are started, construction progress fast, and all the hassles and costs of an active building site are more limited (congestion, overhead, detour routes and its traffic impact, supervision, security, outreach). 

Still, Germany is on a better position than UK, where there is even less construction activity.


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## MichiH

^^ True.


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## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> I think Germany builds and replaces infrastructure at a slightly low overall rate of completion. The problem is not the total amount of road building, but the fact it is spread too thin among many projects simultaneously.
> 
> This means you have a high number of small projects being active at any given time.
> 
> While this might seem "fair", the end result is that more money is spent, because there are some fixed costs associated with each project/site regardless of level of activity, hence the faster you complete them, the lower these costs/km built will be.
> 
> Some countries like Netherlands adopt a different approach: not many simultaneous projects, and some with start dates placed in the future, several years from now. However, once projects are started, construction progress fast, and all the hassles and costs of an active building site are more limited (congestion, overhead, detour routes and its traffic impact, supervision, security, outreach).
> 
> Still, Germany is on a better position than UK, where there is even less construction activity.


Reason is that even though the UK are not building new motorways anymore, the quality of what is there is fine, and high scale maintenance is being carried out at night, whereas in Germany a large part of the autobahn network is in shambles, and they need to get everything in gear to make the network acceptable again.


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## bavarian urbanist

MichiH said:


> Voting the CSU does not mean to favor a car toll!
> 
> Wahl des geringeren Übels (voting the lower evil).


Not voting for CSU doesn't mean being against a road toll 
I mean, honestly, I'm all for a toll system, but if we get one, it should only apply to Autobahns and be license-plate based(ie: your plate is scanned and a bill is sent to the owner of the car), just like the norwegians do. That stuff that Dobrindt proposes is pure manure though.


----------



## MichiH

bavarian urbanist said:


> Not voting for CSU doesn't mean being against a road toll


No, not at all! Politics is not only road toll, there are many other matters. The toll bullshit is just populism. IIRC the car toll was already defined in the 2009 coalition agreement (not as detailed is in 2013).



bavarian urbanist said:


> I mean, honestly, I'm all for a toll system, but if we get one, it should only apply to Autobahns


I don't agree. Commuter would avoid Autobahns and would drive through the villages. That's crap! I dislike any kind of toll but if there is a toll, it should be on all.



bavarian urbanist said:


> and be license-plate based(ie: your plate is scanned and a bill is sent to the owner of the car), just like the norwegians do. That stuff that Dobrindt proposes is pure manure though.


Agree!


----------



## Heico-M

[sarcasm]
Licence plate based? Waah! The state will be able to create a movement profile!!
[/sarcasm]

Soon the Germans will not tell anyone their name any more, for the sake of data protection.
:cheers:


----------



## Kanadzie

MichiH said:


> What's the solution, don't vote? Vote a protest party like the anti EU party AfD? Found an own party?
> 
> What would you vote if you would like the CDU politics but you live in Bavaria?


FDP?:guns1:


----------



## Wilhem275

In fact I don't get why FDP is disappearing from the German political scene. The only explanation I have is that we're going through some very irrational times and FDP proposes politics which require a bit more thinking than the other parties. But I probably miss some important elements in the story. 

Anyway, I always badly missed a lib-dem party in my country, since it may have a more pragmatic approach to these issues of public facilities management (less likely to sacrifice them to the commie vs. lobbying match).


----------



## MichiH

^^ Meanwhile, the FDP got to be a "fun party".


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> I don't agree. Commuter would avoid Autobahns and would drive through the villages. That's crap! I dislike any kind of toll but if there is a toll, it should be on all.


German cars will pay the toll for sure so German car owners will not be able to avoid paying the toll. I have no information about cross country commuters but I suppose there are not so many of them.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It's a toll for all, not for foreigners. It would not be fair if all Germans "have to pay toll" also if they never use an Autobahn.


----------



## bavarian urbanist

MichiH said:


> I don't agree. Commuter would avoid Autobahns and would drive through the villages. That's crap! I dislike any kind of toll but if there is a toll, it should be on all.


No, a toll should only be on the autobahns. Commuters could easily do the math and chose to take the train instead.(on most stretches, the train is already just as fast as the car, keeping in mind that a daily commuter won't be able to drive faster than 140km/h after a long day in the office)


----------



## Road_UK

People WILL avoid autobahns if there's a toll to pay and opt to use B-roads instead, like they do in France. In France it's not so bad, as France is not such a densely populated country as Germany to begin with, and secondly - there are no toll roads in densely populated areas. Put a toll on all autobahns in Germany - and autobahns only - could create mayhem on all other roads.


----------



## Surel

Kanadzie said:


> Is there really a cost to German taxpayers though? Surely the massive fuel taxes more than offset that considering wear on a road surface of a PKW is essentially zero. Moreover the presence of foreigners in the country brings economic benefits (including VAT), if you send them away you lose these... furthermore there can't be any talk of "equity" when you end up having a vignette system costing 100 EUR for 1 year and 10 EUR for 1 day (or however it will be)


Yes, there is a cost - the additional tax costs that he has to pay which the foreigner doesn't.

Imagine that 10 people pay each € 10 tax - you got € 100. If you let 11 people pay € 9.09 you got the same € 100, but everyone had to pay 91 cents less...


----------



## Attus

^^
Correct. And it is absolutely true for the Netherlands and Denmark as well. Additionally, fuel is significantly cheaper in Germany than in those countries so nowadays many people from there come to Germany in order to fill up the tank, they pay fuel tax in Germany and use the roads at home. But German cars do not buy gas in NL/DK, but use the roads there. So it would be quite logical to introduce a new toll for German cars in those countries because we use their roads and pay nothing for it. 

It is pretty logical why this idea comes from Bavaria: all, and really all of their neighbors (CZ, AT, CH), and all the countries which are not direct neighbors but they visit them oft (I, SK, H) have a toll. In Western and Northern Germany where we have toll free neighbors (B, L, NL, DK) this German toll will have painful consequences: all those countries may introduce a toll for German cars, following the same logic which you explained. 

Financing roads from fuel tax and road tax was a good idea in an age when you saw foreign cars perhaps in holiday seasons but usually 99% of cars in a motorway was registered in the country where that road was, but in the current EU, where borders are almost invisible, a road toll is much better and much even-handed idea. 

However, the word that every German tax payers will pay exactly so much as currently, and the very complicated (and pretty unjust) toll system which is a simple copy of the current road tax system, makes this German toll quite crazy.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Attus said:


> Financing roads from fuel tax and road tax was a good idea in an age when you saw foreign cars perhaps in holiday seasons but usually 99% of cars in a motorway was registered in the country where that road was, but in the current EU, where borders are almost invisible, a road toll is much better and much even-handed idea.


I don't get why they want to go through the lenghts to make foreigners pay their "equal" share. The net benefits of the vignette are only about 1.2% of all road-related taxation in Germany. And vignettes are not a fair way to tax foreigners, since vignette system are a disadvantage to foreigners. If you converse the amount of foreign car kilometers to the share of vignette toll, you will see foreigners pay a disproportional high share. 

For example, *5%* of all passenger vehicle kilometers in Germany are done by foreign vehicles. Yet the proposed vignette will create a gross revenue of € 4.7 billion, of which foreigners pay € 860 million. That is *18%*. So foreigners will pay 3.5 times more taxes relative to German drivers.

This is not very different from other vignette countries though. A Slovenian could drive thousands of kilometers on the € 110 annual vignette, while a passing-through tourist may drive 100 km on a € 15 week vignette.

However, in the end, vignettes are *much* cheaper than distance-based tolling. The 2-month vignette will cost you the same as driving 2 hours on a French toll road.


----------



## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> For example, *5%* of all passenger vehicle kilometers in Germany are done by foreign vehicles. Yet the proposed vignette will create a gross revenue of € 4.7 billion, of which foreigners pay € 860 million. That is *18%*. So foreigners will pay 3.5 times more taxes relative to German drivers.


Where you get the gross total revenue from? Yet the road tax revenue will still be another € 4 BLN then... The residents will still be paying the left over road tax which the foreigners won't be paying. It would thus be close to *10 %*.

As I said in the beginning the road tax is there to finance the roads partly as a public good and partly to make the financing proportional to income. Lately, it became also environmental issue.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The € 4.7 billion figure is the total vignette revenue, before road tax compensation for German cars.


----------



## Suburbanist

Does A24 still have a 100km/h speed limit between A19 and A100 interchanges?

What about A1 between Bremen and Hamburg, does it still carry a "temporary" speed limit of 120km/h as well?


----------



## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> The € 4.7 billion figure is the total vignette revenue, before road tax compensation for German cars.


Yes and I am curious where does this figure come from as well as those € 860 MLN.

I did not have the actual numbers when I looked at it so I am curious where do those forecasts come from. I just had the total revenue from the tax as it is now. That is € 8.5 BLN yearly. Then I assumed that if there are 10 % foreign cars in the carpool on the German roads, we could expect some € 850 MLN vignette revenue from those foreigners if the road tax was fully replaced with e-vignette.


You say that vignette will bring € 4.7 BLN (I guess this comes from the current introduced plan). So there still have to be paid some € 4 BLN by the German tax payers in left over taxes to make up for the total currently paid € 8.5 BLN. You see that if the income from foreign cars is estimated at € 860 MLN and the total income (vignette + tax) will stay at € 8.5 BLN, the foreign share is 10 % and not more, which would correspond to their share on the road.


----------



## John Maynard

Attus said:


> Financing roads from fuel tax and road tax was a good idea in an age when you saw foreign cars perhaps in holiday seasons but usually 99% of cars in a motorway was registered in the country where that road was, but in the current EU, where borders are almost invisible, *a road toll is much better and much even-handed idea*.


It's depend, as an electronic road toll may be even more confusing than a nationwide vignette. We in Europe are mostly not used to this system, and I don't think that Germany will build traditional toll booths on every entry/exit, or on sections.



Attus said:


> However, the word that every German tax payers will pay exactly so much as currently, and the very complicated (and pretty unjust) toll system which is a simple copy of the current road tax system, makes this German toll quite crazy.


It's pity that we never wanted to take some elements from the American road-user friendly system, with reasonable fuel prices and taxes, low tolls on some sections, also their system of "priority lane" for HOV. 
IMHO, we are too ideologist here in Europe, making unnecessarily life harder for everyone.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Surel said:


> Yes and I am curious where does this figure come from as well as those € 860 MLN.


These are projections by the German government, as stated in the press release: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/An...rabgabe-infopapier.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Revenue: € 4.7 billion
German cars: € 3.8 billion (compensated through lower road tax)
foreign cars: € 860 million
system cost: € 260 million
net revenue: € 600 million


----------



## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> These are projections by the German government, as stated in the press release: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/An...rabgabe-infopapier.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
> 
> Revenue: € 4.7 billion
> German cars: € 3.8 billion (compensated through lower road tax)
> foreign cars: € 860 million
> system cost: € 260 million
> net revenue: € 600 million


TY.

So we can see that the projected total foreign share is at 10 % of the current total tax burden to the German residents which corresponds to the foreign share on the road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The foreign share in passenger car kilometers in Germany is 5%, not 10% or 18%.

I'm not sure if your figure of € 8.5 billion for the total road tax also includes taxes on trucks. Because trucks also pay separately through the LKW-Maut.


----------



## Attus

Surel said:


> TY.
> 
> So we can see that the projected total foreign share is at 10 % of the current total tax burden to the German residents which corresponds to the foreign share on the road.


Sorry?
If total income is 4.7bn, foreign cars pay 860mn, it is not 10% but 18%.


----------



## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> The foreign share in passenger car kilometers in Germany is 5%, not 10% or 18%.
> 
> I'm not sure if your figure of € 8.5 billion for the total road tax also includes taxes on trucks. Because trucks also pay separately through the LKW-Maut.


The vignette is paid from a car not from kms...

It would take me too long with my German to search the really detailed numbers. But the PKW paid at least € 7 BLN in 2012. The rest of € 1.5 BLN might come from other non LKW vehicles I guess. Not LKW maut. LKW maut is some € 4.5 BLN yearly.

http://www.bundesfinanzministerium....-geschaeftsstatistik-kraftfahrzeugsteuer.html


> Das Kraftfahrzeugsteueraufkommen der Personenkraftwagen (Pkw) veränderte sich gegenüber 2011 kaum und stieg nur geringfügig um rund 0,6 Mio. € auf 7,05 Mrd. €. Das Aufkommen aus den Pkw mit Dieselmotor ist dabei um rund 125,3 Mio. € angestiegen und das der mit Ottomotoren ausgerüsteten Pkw um rund 124,7 Mio. € gesunken.
> 
> ...
> 
> Tabelle1: Anteil der Kraftfahrzeugsteuer Pkw am Gesamtaufkommen
> ...
> Insgesamt lt. Kassenjahr
> 8 897,6


The total KFZ over the years were like this:
http://de.statista.com/statistik/da.../einnahmen-aus-der-kfz-steuer-in-deutschland/


----------



## Surel

Attus said:


> Sorry?
> If total income is 4.7bn, foreign cars pay 860mn, it is not 10% but 18%.


The German residents would still have to pay the left over road tax worth some € 4 BLN and buy the vignette at the same time.


----------



## MichiH

Kanadzie said:


> PL/NL makes sense but the dramatic drop for France seems strange, though perhaps geographically more logical


There is almost no relation b/n Germany and France.

I usually don't see any France car on German roads. Only near the border (Karlsruhe/Freiburg). I even see more cars from Luxembourg on German roads.....


----------



## MichiH

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no delays according to the A44 project page. But they have changed the completion date for the section *AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West to AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center *from fall 2013 to spring 2014 within the last few days.
> According to a newspaper article the delay is caused by problems with the technical equipment of the tunnel.
> 
> 
> 
> The project page says that the opening of the 2.2km long A44 section near _Hessich Lichtenau_ is planned to be in mid 2014.
Click to expand...

The A44 section b/n i/c _Hessisch Lichtenau_-West and i/c _Hessisch Lichtenau_-Center will finally be opened on 24th July 2014. Source.


----------



## MichiH

*A5 Karlsruhe - Freiburg*



MichiH said:


> The works on the last 2.8km section of the A5 PPP project b/n Appenweier and Offenburg will resume in two weeks and will be completed in July. The works were almost completed last fall, but the contractor said, they have to save money b/c the truck incomes are lower than expected. According to the contract the widening must be completed until 30th September 2014.
> After the completion of the resumed works, the entire 2x3 widening b/n Baden-Baden and Offburg will be completed (>40km). The works began in 2010.


All A5 widening sections are 2x3 in service since today.


----------



## MichiH

*A8 Albaufstieg*



Bembelkönig said:


> How it could look like...


The state's Minster of Transport, Mr. Hermann (Green Party), visited the region, see press release. He wants to expedite the project. A presentation of the project was published too: > click <. The 8.3km section contains the 800m Filstalbrücke viaduct, the 1,200m Himmelsschleife tunnel, the 460m Gosbachtalbrücke viaduct and the 1,700m Drackenstein tunnel.


----------



## MichiH

*B327 Kastellaun bypass*

The *B327 Kastellaun bypass* will be opened on 29th July 2014 (OSM). The plan approval procedure began in August 1983 and the plan approval order was finally passed in April 2005. The groundbreaking took place in August 2011. The bypass has a length of 4.7km and contains a 200m viaduct. The estimated costs are 29 million € (August 2011 press release) or 21 million € (today's press release).


----------



## ajch

In the summer of 2012 i drove A8 between Saarbrucken and Luxembourg border and found that there was a little stretch of around 4Km that was 2+1 road instead of autobahn. I have checked Michelin maps, Google maps and other maps and all give that stretch as a motorway.

the stretch is here
start http://goo.gl/maps/UdhM9
end http://goo.gl/maps/Vo4fT

i wonder if:

are there more stretch like this in german network?
is this stretch an autobahn or not in the total mileage count?
why of this anomaly in the network?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, it is an Autobahn and there are and were more like that, e.g. A60 and A62. Why? I don't know. I've also checked the German forum, no info. Probably lack of money (two viaducts) and a low predicted AADT! The AADT was only about 22,000 vehicles/day in 2010 (~10,000 in 2000) but the section is an accident hot spot. That's why it is planned to build the 2nd carriageway, construction could maybe begin in 2015 or 2016... The upgrade will cost at minimum 40 million €.


----------



## Alqaszar

Yes, look for A 60 and A 62.

A 60 is substandard between Winterspelt and Prüm, as is the A 62 between Bann and Pirmasens.

Welcome to Germany, the Fatherland of the one-laned Autobahn.

Not to mention the facts that the same number can refer to different autobahns: A 8 can be Luxembourg - Primasens, or Karlsruhe - Munich, or Munich - Salzburg. The A 4 runs from Aachen to Olpe, but also from Bad Hersfeld to Görlitz. The above mentioned A 60 also got its twin, running from Bingen to Rüsselsheim. Historical reasons, unbuilt stretches, of course, but one still wonders.

On the other hand, the stretch of the A 48 between Luxembourg and Trier has been renamed as A 64. Not that it got a decent connection to the rest of the network, though. And I won't start about the lack of a sufficient autobahn network in the state of Baden-Württemberg...

Edit: MichiH was the the faster one.


----------



## Suburbanist

A6 had bad pavement (old noisy concrete) near Manheim. Have they fixed that?


----------



## MichiH

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen*



MichiH said:


> ChrisZwolle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 12 March 2014
> 
> A 1.6 km stretch of A30 opened to provisional traffic today. It's a short stretch north of Bad Oeynhausen that runs from L772 to K29 (new B61?) There's one lane each way for the time being. It doesn't connect to other parts of A30 yet, so through traffic still has to go through the city of Bad Oeynhausen for the time being.
> 
> And I drove it today!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, opened this morning. Some pics: > click <.
> Bad news: The completion of the A30 bypass is postponed. Straßen.NRW hopes to open it in early 2017.
Click to expand...

The official aim is to get the entire A30 _Bad Oeynhausen_ bypass into service in 2016 (I guess late 2016): source.


----------



## MichiH

http://www.welt.de/regionales/muenc...dert-bei-Maut-Ausnahmen-fuer-Grenzkreise.html

The Bavarian Minister of the Interior, Mr. Herrmann (CSU party) claims to exclude the districts from the car toll, which are close to the borders to Czech Republic, Austria and Switzerland.

That means, the A8/A93 b/n Salzburg and Kufstein would not be tolled .


----------



## thun

Nutheads. Their main argument for years was that it would be especially fair to toll the millions of Austrians using that motorway. And now he's chickening out. hno:


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> http://www.welt.de/regionales/muenc...dert-bei-Maut-Ausnahmen-fuer-Grenzkreise.html
> 
> The Bavarian Minister of the Interior, Mr. Herrmann (CSU party) claims to exclude the districts from the car toll, which are close to the borders to Czech Republic, Austria and Switzerland.
> 
> That means, the A8/A93 b/n Salzburg and Kufstein would not be tolled .


So. The "Maut für Ausländer" does not have any sense in this case.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> The A44 section b/n i/c _Hessisch Lichtenau_-West and i/c _Hessisch Lichtenau_-Center will finally be opened on 24th July 2014. Source.


Google Earth imagery shows they already started working on Hessisch Lichtenau-West interchange in or before 2001, but it was left untouched until at least 2008 (next available imagery).


----------



## Alqaszar

The A 57 between the Dutch border at Goch (A 77) and Kleve (B 9) had to be closed on Saturday due to damage to the road surface because of the heat. Temperatures went up to 35C/95F in the region yesterday. The road has been opened again after midnight.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Rheinische Post has some photos of the repair of A57 near Goch:

http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/a57-bei-goch-platzt-durch-die-hitze-auf-bid-1.4398743

Dutch media are so ignorant, they all translated "damage due to heat", into "melted asphalt" without further fact-checking. German media correctly reported that it was actually buckled concrete.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are a record 366 road work zones on German Autobahns this summer, according to the Bild am Sonntag. Most of them are in NRW (115) and Bavaria (88).

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/w...-an-baustellen-zur-ferienzeit_id_4004039.html


----------



## MichiH

*A20 Elbtunnel*

Media says that the Federal Court of Auditors ("Bundesrechnungshof") expects that the costs for for building the *A20 Elbtunnel* west of Hamburg have raised from 1.3 to 1.5 billion €. The Schlewsig-Holstein Minster of Transport says that the appropriate road authority will make the first authoritative calculation until end of 2014. The 2008 calculation estimated 813 million €.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Experts discovered that another large bridge on the A45 is so much kaputt that a simple strengtening isn´t enough and a total replacement is necessary. :siren:

It´s the Rahmedetalbrücke near Meinerzhagen. The construction of the new bridge should begin in 2018.

*Source* (in German)


----------



## Suburbanist

Why are so many A45 bridges in need of replacement?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A45 became a heavy truck corridor from the Ruhr to southeastern Europe. Most of A45's bridges were built between 1966 and 1971. At some locations, shoulders were converted to driving lanes, increasing traffic load. The bridges cannot take this amount of trucks. Note that a single truck damages a bridge the same as 60,000-something cars. 

Quite a number of A45 bridges have weight and speed restrictions, and in some cases, also requiring 50 meters of distance between trucks in case of a traffic jam. 

On the Hessen side of A45 alone, 22 bridges need to be replaced, and many are large bridges that span valleys. This costs billions of euros.


----------



## MichiH

*A524 Duisburg*



MichiH said:


> I passed there last week. The 2nd A524 carriageway is still not existing (but some works are ongoing) west of the i/c Duisburg-Rahm. The traffic is using the southern carriageway 2x1. I've found a source which refers a completion in fall 2014.


Both A524 carriageways within the i/c Duisburg-South are in service now. It's 1+1 now, I guess since early July (the northern carriageway was not yet in service on 2nd July but on 8th July). The left lanes are still blocked b/c the fundament for the signage must be done. It is planned to open it 2x2 in about one month. The remaining u/c ramps of the i/c will be opened in late September 2014. News article (8th July).


----------



## hjf

ChrisZwolle said:


> A45 became a heavy truck corridor from the Ruhr to southeastern Europe. Most of A45's bridges were built between 1966 and 1971. [....]
> 
> On the Hessen side of A45 alone, 22 bridges need to be replaced, and many are large bridges that span valleys. This costs billions of euros.


Plus, of course, the salt. A45 runs through the Sauerland. A region with a lot of snow and long winters (at least as compared to the neighbouring parts of Germany). Some bridges even have automatic salt spraying systems.

I do not think that withstanding today´s heavy use of salt on motorways was a design criteria for bridges constructed in the 60s.

Best

hjf


----------



## MichiH

The A2 b/n Hannover and Berlin has also damage due to the heat. The 3 lanes are closed between Wollin and Ziesar, only the hard shoulder is used (source).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A9 and A14 as well according to MDR.

http://www.mdr.de/sachsen-anhalt/hitze-fahrbahn-autobahn100_zc-a2551f81_zs-ae30b3e4.html


----------



## panda80

Some photos from North of Germany, between Wismar and Lubeck. I drove like this.

1. On A20, after Wismar:



2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9. We leave A20 to drive on some local roads (B104 and B75) until Lubeck:



10.


----------



## cinxxx

Road_UK said:


> What I'd be interested in is a good reliable link from Saarbrücken to Munich avoiding Stuttgart. It would save me a lot of hours and stress.


http://goo.gl/maps/eVB6f
:dunno:


----------



## Road_UK

That route is approx 60 km longer then via Stuttgart. They signpost that route for a reason I don't quite understand.


----------



## Isek

ChrisZwolle said:


> You can find a lot of background information here: http://www.autobahn-online.de/ehem/a45.html
> 
> It was planned to extend all the way to A8 at Kirchheim unter Teck, east of Stuttgart.


Actually it would be so far good enough to built this A45 from Kirchheim A8 to the A6 and widen the nasty A61 to 3 lanes up to Cologne.


----------



## MichiH

^^ No. It is not planned to build any new road there (since more than 30 years)!


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*

29th July 2014: *B327 Kastellaun bypass* (4.7km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
29th July 2014: *B256 Kruft bypass* (3.5km; OSM; u/c since December 2009)

2nd August 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n Adelsried and Neusäß* (8.2km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
August 2014: *B243 Bad Lauterberg - Bad Sachsa* (8.6km; OSM; u/c since October 2008; 2x2)
26th August 2014: *B28 Oberkirch and Lautenbach bypass* (4.5km; OSM; u/c since May 2007)
28th August 2014: *A1 2x3 widening b/n AK Münster-South (A43) and Dortmund-Ems-Canal bridge* (3.2km; OSM; u/c since October 2012)

13th September 2014: *A66 Neuhof-South - Neuhof-North* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since October 2005; 2x2)
13th September 2014: *B25 Wallerstein and Ehringen bypass* (3.6 km; OSM; u/c since June 2013; partial 2+1)
17th September 2014: *A4 Düren - Kerpen* [direction _Cologne_] (11.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2008; 1x3)
20th September 2014: *A4 Düren - Kerpen* [direction _Aachen_] (11.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2008; 2x3)
Until Mid September 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n Günzburg and west of Burgau* (7.3km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
Until Mid September 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n east of Burgau and Zusmarshausen* (5.7km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
Mid September 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
September 2014: *A4 Magdala - Jena-Göschwitz* (11.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2007; 2x3)
September 2014: *B85 2+1 widening b/n March and Metten* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since August 2013)
September 2014: *B521 Nidderau bypass*, 1st section (1.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
September 2014: *A62 2nd carriageway b/n south of Weselberg to Schwarzbach viaduct* (3.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
September 2014: *B41 2x2 widening Ingelheim-West (A60) - Ingelheim* (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
Late September 2014: *A281 Bremen-Seehausen - Bremen-Strom* (4.1km; OSM; u/c since April 2009; 2x2)


----------



## Isek

MichiH said:


> ^^ No. It is not planned to build any new road there (since more than 30 years)!


I know. I just wanted to express some of my dreams. 

Anyway i would be also somehow satisfied with an A9 5+5 from Munich to Pfaffenhofen, 4+4 to Hallertau and 4+4 from Nurnberg to Erlangen and of course 3+3 to Wurzburg.


----------



## MichiH

Isek said:


> I know. I just wanted to express some of my dreams.






Isek said:


> Anyway i would be also somehow satisfied with an A9 5+5 from Munich to Pfaffenhofen,


Not planned.



Isek said:


> 4+4 to Hallertau


Planned (temporary shoulder running in service / u/c)



Isek said:


> and 4+4 from Nurnberg to Erlangen


Only planned on A9 b/n A6 and A3.



Isek said:


> and of course 3+3 to Wurzburg.


The entire A3 b/n Nuremberg and Aschaffenburg will be upgraded (partial 4+3). Aschaffenburg - Würzbug should be completed until 202x (officially until fall 2019), Würzburg - Nuremberg will be upgraded afterwards (I guess until 203x).


----------



## Isek

^^

This 203x schedule for the A3 between Würzburg and Erlangen is pure madness. At that time the complete A3 down to Passau should be 3+3. Heavy truck traffic is just insane on the entire A3.


And i doubt if the 4+4 A9 to Pfaffenhofen is enough for the year 2025 or even now.

Have you updated info about A92 3+3 between Feldmoching and Neufarn?


----------



## MichiH

Isek said:


> This 203x schedule for the A3 between Würzburg and Erlangen is pure madness.


Well, that's not the official info, it's just what I suppose. PPP was proposed too.

Here's a news article (7th June). The vice president of the road authority (ABDNB), Mr. Arndt, said that AB-WÜ should be completed until 2018, but this article (8th July) quotes the construction supervisor, Mr. Ehmke, that the _Heidingsfeld_ section should be "completed until fall 2019". Well, the first article also quotes Mr. Arndt "no improvement on the Würzburg - Fürth/Erlangen section this decade".



Isek said:


> At that time the complete A3 down to Passau should be 3+3. Heavy truck traffic is just insane on the entire A3.


The new BVWP 2015 (valid for 2015 to 2030) will not contain that project. The preliminary proposal list does only contain a 2x3 widening b/n Nittendorf and Rosenhof (24km around Regensburg) and AK Deggendorf - Hengersberg (9km) of the entire 225km section b/n Nuremberg and the Austrian border. The plan approval procedure of the 14km section b/n AK Regensburg and Rosenhof was announced to be started in 2014. I guess the two additional sections will get further demand (2030-2045).



Isek said:


> And i doubt if the 4+4 A9 to Pfaffenhofen is enough for the year 2025 or even now.


Yep, but there are many "urgent" projects. It is not proposed for the BVWP 2015, so the planning process will not be started until 2045 (but there's a paragraph called "unpredictable demand" which could allow an earlier planning start). The Federal Ministry of Transport has recently assured that the proposal list contain are relevant projects to eliminate all known bottlenecks:



> Nach gegenwärtigem Erkenntnisstand würden für alle drei Verkehrsträger (Straße, Schiene, Wasserstraße) *für die im Bundeswegenetz bekannten verkehrlichen Probleme bereits entsprechende Projektanmeldungen vorliegen*. Eine Nachmeldefrist sei daher nicht vorgesehen.





Isek said:


> Have you updated info about A92 3+3 between Feldmoching and Neufarn?


The "unpredictable demand" was approved in December 2005. The preliminary design (Vorentwurf) was announced to be corrected until spring 2011. The latest info on the page of the road authority (ABDSB) is from January 2010: > click<.

I've googled now and found a presentation of the ABDSB from November 2013 which says that the preliminary design was approved by the Federal Ministry of Transport in July 2013, the documents for the plan approval procedure are prepared now.

My supposed schedule (best case scenario): plan approval procedure will begin in (late 2014/)2015, the order will be passed in 2018, groundbreaking 202x.


----------



## Isek

MichiH said:


> The new BVWP 2015 (valid for 2015 to 2030) will not contain that project. The preliminary proposal list does only contain a 2x3 widening b/n Nittendorf and Rosenhof (24km around Regensburg) and AK Deggendorf - Hengersberg (9km) of the entire *2*25km section b/n Nuremberg and the Austrian border. The plan approval procedure of the 14km section b/n AK Regensburg and Rosenhof was announced to be started in 2014. I guess the two additional sections will get further demand (2030-2045).






I would still love to see this for the north of Munich.


----------



## Suburbanist

Isek said:


> I would still love to see this for the north of Munich.


Isn't completion of A99 more important?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New cable-stayed bridge across a railroad in Raunheim (just west of Frankfurt). It will open in early 2015.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> 29th July 2014: *B327 Kastellaun bypass* (4.7km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
> 29th July 2014: *B256 Kruft bypass* (3.5km; OSM; u/c since December 2009)


Happened, see press release.

The costs of the _Kastellaun_ bypass are 23 million € instead of 29 million €. The costs of the _Kruft_ bypass are 18 million €.



MichiH said:


> Late September 2014: *A281 Bremen-Seehausen - Bremen-Strom* (4.1km; OSM; u/c since April 2009; 2x2)


Seems to be opened on 29th September 2014.


----------



## MichiH

*Approved funding / upcoming groundbreaking*

Media announced that the funding of some projects is backed:

- *A3 2x3 (4+3) widening near Wertheim* (8.5km; OSM; 77 million €; plan approval order: February 2007; groundbreaking: March 2015; source)
- *A14 2x2 Grabow - Groß Warnow* (9.8km; OSM; 88 million €; plan approval order: December 2012; groundbreaking: 2015; source)
- *B2 2x2 Oberau bypass* (4.2km; OSM; 165 million €; plan approval order: February 2010; groundbreaking: Spring 2015; source)
- *B3 2x2/2+1 Hemmingen bypass* (7.5km; OSM; 50 million €; plan approval order: September 2004; groundbreaking: 2015?; source)
- *B29 2x2 Mögglingen bypass* (6.9km; OSM; 67 million €; plan approval order: September 1999; groundbreaking: Late 2014; source)
- *B31 2x2 Immenstaad – Friedrichshafen* (7.1km; OSM; 97 million €; plan approval order: June 2008; groundbreaking: Early 2015; source)
- *B300 2x2 widening Dasing - Aichach* (4-5km; OSM; 22 million €; plan approval order: April 2009; groundbreaking: Fall 2014; source)

All announced projects are motorway, motorway-like or partial motorway-like (B3 only).

2 projects are in Bavaria
2 projects are in Baden-Württemberg
1 project is in Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg
1 project is in Lower Saxony
1 project is in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

Edit: one non-motorway project (Lower Saxony; 60km away from Zwolle ):
- *B213/B403 Nordhorn bypass* (8.5km; OSM; 32 million €; plan approval order: May 2011; groundbreaking: "soon"; source)


----------



## MichiH

*Approved funding / upcoming groundbreaking*

^^ More projects seem to be backed:

- *A3 2x4 widening AS Leverkusen - AS Köln-Mülheim* (~4.5km; OSM; ? million €; plan approval order: January 2012; groundbreaking: Early 2015; source)
- *A43 2x3 widening AS Recklinghausen/Herten – AK Herne* (~7km; OSM; 166 million €; plan approval order: April 2013; groundbreaking: Late 2014; source; expected court hearing: 2015)
- *A72 2x2 AS Rötha – AK Leipzig* (7.2km; OSM; 100 million €; plan approval order: December 2013; groundbreaking: 2016(preliminary works will begin earlier); source)
- *B51/B481 2x2/2+1 Münster bypass [L587/K7 - L793]* (6.3km; OSM; 42 million €; plan approval order: September 2011; groundbreaking: 2015; source; expected court hearing: Late 2014)
- *B271 Kirchheim bypass* (3.4km; OSM; 20 million €; plan approval order: February 2009; groundbreaking: 2015; source)

In addition, the final funding of two already u/c projects seems be backed now:

- *A26 2x2 Buxtehude - Neu Wulmstorf* (4.1km; OSM; 99 million €; plan approval order: June 2012; groundbreaking: September 2013; source)
- *B15n 2x2 Ergoldsbach - Essenbach* (9.0km; OSM; 115 million €; plan approval order: December 2011; groundbreaking: August 2013; source)

The funding is provided by the federal 2014 budget (passed on 18th July). In addition, the funding is backed by a general funding plan 2014-2018 (passed on 2nd July).

3 projects are in NRW
1 project is in Saxony
1 project is in Rhinland-Palatinate
1 project is in Lower Saxony
1 project is in Bavaria


----------



## flierfy

MichiH said:


> - *A72 2x2 AS Rötha – AK Leipzig AK Leipzig-Süd* (7.2km; OSM; 100 million €; plan approval order: December 2013; groundbreaking: 2016(preliminary works will begin earlier); source)


The correct name of the junction is Kreuz Leipzig-Süd.


----------



## thun

Good that the Oberau tunnels will come. It's indeed a bottleneck every Saturday.


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## g.spinoza

thun said:


> Good that the Oberau tunnels will come. It's indeed a bottleneck every Saturday.


I agree. I remember the town full of signs "Oberau tunnel now, without 'ifs' and 'buts'".

Isn't it going to be part of A95?


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Isn't it going to be part of A95?


No, B2. It will be a "yellow Autobahn" . It's w/o hard shoulders. The 3.8km section between the current A95 end and the _Oberau_ bypass should also been upgraded (2x2 with hard shoulders). It will also be signed B2. The plan approval procedure began years ago. The order was announced (in April 2011) to be passed in spring 2012, groundbreaking spring 2013. The info on the project page of both projects is from October 2011: > click <. The AADT is > 20,000 vehicles/day. The 2025 prediction w/o upgrade is 30,000 vehicles/day in _Oberau_.


----------



## MichiH

^^  source: Süddeutsche Zeitung

3 tunnels are planned. The _Oberau_ tunnel (groundbreaking fall 2015, completion >= 2021), the Auberg tunnel (north of _Oberau_) and the B23 Kramer tunnel (2-laned _Garmisch_ bypass; preliminary works have begun in July 2010 but there's a problem with the rocks which requests modifications of the planning). Total costs: ~ 500 million €. They've forgot the B2 Wank tunnel (2-laned _Partenkirchen_ bypass) which is in an earlier planning stage.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A44 at Velbert:


----------



## MichiH

*Approved funding / upcoming groundbreaking*

There's a list of all Bavarian projects (source). Additional projects:

- *A3 2x3 widening Marktheidenfeld - Wertheim* (~8km [16km in total]; OSM; ~60 million €; plan approval order: October 2008; groundbreaking: 2015?)
- *A6 2x3 widening AK Nuremberg-South - AK Nuremberg-East* (3.7km; OSM; ~35 million €; plan approval order: September 2009; groundbreaking: 2015?; completion: Late 2016)
- *B2 Dettenheim bypass plus 2+1 widening* (4.7km; OSM; 12 million €; plan approval order: May 2012; groundbreaking: Fall 2014)
- *B85 Neubäu bypass* (preliminary works only; OSM)


----------



## MichiH

*Approved funding / upcoming groundbreaking*

- *A8 2x2 widening Merzig-Wellingen - Merzig-Schwellingen* (3.5km; OSM; 38 million €; plan approval order: Early 2014?; groundbreaking: Fall 2014; source)
- *A44 2x2 Waldkappel - Hoheneiche* (7.2km; OSM; 224 million €; plan approval order: October 2011; groundbreaking: Spring 2015; source)
- *B62 Leimbach bypass* (4.5km; OSM; 16 million €; plan approval order: December 2011; groundbreaking: Frühjahr 2015; source)
- B90 *Traßdorf - Nahwinden* (13.8km; OSM; 46 million €; plan approval order: February 2010; groundbreaking: August 2013; source)

I hate this damn "groundbreaking policy". I hate that the Federal Government does not provide a list with all projects. The news are published by members of the Bundestag or by state's Ministry of Transport. I guess I have to add the remaining 90-100 approved projects (building law) within the next days........


----------



## ChrisZwolle

At least there's some movement in road construction. I remember a lot of 'first sods' or 'green lights' just before the 2013 elections, and not much progress since. Now it's time to cash in those political promises.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, but it is stupid to begin dozens of projects at once. I'd prefer to begin a project, push it and complete it as soon as possible. Especially widening projects which cause congestion during construction.


----------



## Heico-M

I drove through the whole country from north to south a fortnight ago and back last Wednesday. I saw lots and lots of roadworks on the way, more than I ever witnessed on my many drives on German motorways. 

Things may be moving slowly, but they are moving, there is no doubt.


----------



## Road_UK

Heico-M said:


> I drove through the whole country from north to south a fortnight ago and back last Wednesday. I saw lots and lots of roadworks on the way, more than I ever witnessed on my many drives on German motorways.
> 
> Things may be moving slowly, but they are moving, there is no doubt.


Ongoing roadworks in Germany have been nonstop for decades now. They always seem to find something to. Also with the state some of the roads are in it is also necessary. Just as you were able to drive from Munich to Frankfurt absolutely roadwork-free they started again....


----------



## MichiH

^^ Well, I've no idea about all works but the last time no 2x3 widening works were ongoing on the A3 b/n _Aschaffenburg_ and _Würzburg_ was b/n the completion of the section AS _Aschaffenburg_-East - AS _Hösbach_ in December 2004 (groundbreaking spring 2001) and the groundbreaking of the section AS _Aschaffenburg_(-West) - AS _Aschaffenburg_-East in October 2005. Since October 2005 always at least one section has been u/c. The announced completion of all sections is fall 2019 but the A3 b/n _Würzburg_ and _Nuremberg_ will also be upgraded "soon".


----------



## cinxxx

^^Yeah, it's horrible, sometimes a nightmare to drive here. And taking the train is also not better. My gf had to drive to Munich and back last weekend on Saturday and Sunday. Every time coming back it was over 1 hour late...


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## Road_UK

A while ago I have been warned not to use my favourite A3 route and go via Stuttgart instead...


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## ChrisZwolle

It appears that road works also have more traffic impact in Germany than elsewhere. The lanes through the work zone are often extremely narrow with a 60 kph speed limit. I've read that in Germany about 35% of traffic congestion is due to road works, to compare, this was only 5% in the Netherlands over the past few years despite a large number of road widening projects.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've read that in Germany about 35% of traffic congestion is due to road works


I also thought that about 1/3 are caused by road works.

Here a stats from 2005 (German Autobahns):







(wikipedia)

And a stats from 2008 (German arterial roads - "Fernstraßen"): > click <.
66% dense traffic volume (hohes Verkehrsaufkommen)
16% accidents (Unfälle)
15% road works (Baustellen)
3% demaged vehicles

Don't ever trust statistics that you haven't falsified yourself...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The worst is a combination of high traffic and an accident in a work zone :nuts:


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The worst is a combination of high traffic and a rear-end collision accident caused by a demaged vehicle stranded in a work zone :nuts:


In this case, you have 100% bad luck


----------



## spy_flo

And a detour is imperative in that case. You may lose even several hours,combine the extreme heat and the hell is unleashed.


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## Isek

All this facts described above have a quite simple answer: Compared to other countries especially west and south Germany has meanwhile a tiny and low capacity motorway network taking into account
1) The population density of Germany
2) The fact beeing right in the heart of Europe
3) The recent economic success of Germany

All major motorways should have been 3+3 with 4+4 or 5+5 within the urban areas 15 years ago! And the situation for the railway is even worse. But since abou 2/3 of tge budget goes into social welfare......:nuts:


----------



## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> The worst is a combination of high traffic and an accident in a work zone :nuts:


The worst is a combination of dense traffic and multiple accidents in a construction zone during a summertime ice storm, with a landslide (like the CZ D8) plus a meteor strike and the outbreak of war. :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Isek said:


> And the situation for the railway is even worse.


Despite the poor conditions of many railway bridges, the rate of spending on railways is actually much higher than on the federal road network.

Federal spending;

* Eisenbahnen des Bundes: € 10.1 billion
* Bundesfernstraßen: € 7.1 billion

www.bundeshaushalt-info.de

The passenger kilometers by mode:
* Autobahn: 222 billion km
* Bundesstraße: 108.4 billion km
* DB Eisenbahnen: 88.7 billion km

http://de.statista.com/statistik/da...e/fahrleistung-auf-autobahnen-in-deutschland/
http://www.bast.de/DE/Presse/Downlo...g-pressemitteilung.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
http://de.statista.com/statistik/da...eistung-der-db-ag-im-schienenpersonenverkehr/

Federal spending per 1 billion passenger km:
* Federal roads: € 21 million
* Federal railways: € 114 million


----------



## Coccodrillo

MichiH said:


> http://polpix.sueddeutsche.com/bild/1.2070729.1406734315/860x860/oberaugarmischpartenkirchen.jpg


I noticed that in German sometimes tunnels are named as "Tunnel NAME", sometimes "NAMEer Tunnel" (Name's tunnel). In this example, there are Tunnel Oberau and Kramertunnel. Why is that, rather than Oberauer Tunnel and Tunnel Kramen, for instance?

Another example, this rail tunnel can also be called Rastatter Tunnel (Rastatt's tunnel), but is more often called Tunnel Rastatt. What is the rule?


----------



## MichiH

^^ No idea........ The naming of interchanges (AD and AK) is state's dependent. Some call the interchange like a town or village, some like the countryside....


----------



## MichiH

*A14/A24 AK Schwerin*

Taken by © *Bruno Becker* on 31th July 2014:

























"Dreenkrögener Damm":


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> It appears that road works also have more traffic impact in Germany than elsewhere. The lanes through the work zone are often extremely narrow with a 60 kph speed limit.


I have quite a small car, an Opel Corsa. But usually at road works I can't overtake a truck which is driving significantly slower than that crazy speed limit, because the lanes are so narrow. 
And then the whole motorway drives 40 km/h, several kilometers long. 
Once on A61 I've almost caused an accident. Limit was 60 km/h, I was driving in the left lane, a truck in the right lane beside me. Both of us drove approx. 60 km/h. And then suddenly the left lane was so narrow that I didn't feel safe to drive on side by side so I had to brake.


----------



## Wilhem275

Once I was with my RV in the right lane, and passed by a bump in the temporary barriers on the right... the truck in front of me rubbed its wheels against it, I sweeped a bit to the left and avoided it by inches... I believed those barriers were supposed to be fixed to the ground!


----------



## mcarling

Attus said:


> I have quite a small car, an Opel Corsa. But usually at road works I can't overtake a truck which is driving significantly slower than that crazy speed limit, because the lanes are so narrow.
> And then the whole motorway drives 40 km/h, several kilometers long.
> Once on A61 I've almost caused an accident. Limit was 60 km/h, I was driving in the left lane, a truck in the right lane beside me. Both of us drove approx. 60 km/h. And then suddenly the left lane was so narrow that I didn't feel safe to drive on side by side so I had to brake.


As far as I know, the minimum width for a temporary motorway lane during construction is 2.0 meters. The width of an Opel Corsa, depending on year, ranges from 1.532 to 1.737 meters.


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## ChrisZwolle

That width doesn't include mirrors. The margin of error is really low. 

The motorway work zone speed limit in the Netherlands is usually 90 km/h, sometimes 70 km/h. They recently widened the A10 around Amsterdam, but the road works had as good as no impact on traffic congestion.


----------



## MichiH

There are usually signs that it is not allowed to use the left lane if your car has a width of more than 2.0m. It's with mirrors but in your documents the width is always w/o mirrors! As far as I know most of all cars which are registered in Germany have more than 2.0m (I guess including my car ). That means, the left lane should always be very empty, but it isn't! I still feel very safe using the left lane but I try to pass trucks as fast as possible to avoid to drive side by side. The standard speed limit is 80km/h.

There are four attempts to improve the situation:
1. Reduce the speed limit to 60 km/h
2. Forbid overtaking, cars should drive staggered
3. Allow car width of 2.1m on the left lane
4. Reduce the number of lanes (2+1 instead of 2x2)

3. is often only possible in combination with 4.


----------



## MichiH

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*

Some aerials of the A44 (unfortunately w/o comments of the definite location but I guess it is west to east from _Helsa_ to _Waldkappel_; source: HNA online, Hessisch Niedersächsische Allgemeine):

All 30 pics: > click <.

























































A44 summary:
- 2 sections are in service (6.5km, since 2005 or last week)
- 3 sections are u/c (16.5km; estimated opening in 2016/18)
- 1 section is funded, groundbreaking spring 2015 (7.2km)
- 3 sections have building law, not yet funded (21.6km)
- 1 section is still in planning stage, plan approval procedure should been restarted 'soon' (11.3km; it's the most important, the western-most section)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

HNA called it the 'most expensive motorway in the world'. 

One has to be very careful with claims like that


----------



## MichiH

^^ They are not right, the A100 in Berlin is usually called the 'most expensive motorway in the world' .


----------



## cinxxx

MichiH said:


> There are four attempts to improve the situation:
> 1. Reduce the speed limit to 60 km/h
> 2. Forbid overtaking, cars should drive staggered
> 3. Allow car width of 2.1m on the left lane
> 4. Reduce the number of lanes (2+1 instead of 2x2)
> 
> 3. is often only possible in combination with 4.


2. I drove through some Baustellen where overtaking is forbidden, still many drivers overtake. I have to say I don't feel very comfortable on that left lane, especially if besides a truck and in curves.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> ^^ They are not right, the A100 in Berlin is usually called the 'most expensive motorway in the world' .


I-80 in San Francisco has cost over € 1.5 billion per kilometer hno:
(the eastern span of the San Francisco Bay Bridge replacement cost $ 6.5 billion for 3.1 km)


----------



## MichiH

^^ Germans are world champion, also in building Autobahns. Please let them believe that .

PS: Wasn't the Boston project the most expensive one?


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



MichiH said:


> 29th July 2014: *B327 Kastellaun bypass* (4.7km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
> 29th July 2014: *B256 Kruft bypass* (3.5km; OSM; u/c since December 2009)
> 
> 2nd < 11th August 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n Adelsried and Neusäß* (8.2km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
> 26th August 2014: *B28 Oberkirch and Lautenbach bypass* (4.5km; OSM; u/c since May 2007)
> 28th August 2014: *A1 2x3 widening b/n AK Münster-South (A43) and Dortmund-Ems-Canal bridge* (3.2km; OSM; u/c since October 2012)
> Late August 2014: *B256** Rengsdorf bypass* (4.2km; OSM; u/c since July 2006)
> Late August 2014: *B462** Dunningen bypass* (6.4km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> September August 2014: *A62 2nd carriageway b/n south of Weselberg to Schwarzbach viaduct* (3.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
> 
> August 5th September 2014: *B243 Bad Lauterberg - Bad Sachsa* (8.6km; OSM; u/c since October 2008; 2x2)
> 13th September 2014: *A66 Neuhof-South - Neuhof-North* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since October 2005; 2x2)
> 13th September 2014: *B25 Wallerstein and Ehringen bypass* (3.6 km; OSM; u/c since June 2013; partial 2+1)
> 17th September 2014: *A4 Düren - Kerpen* [direction _Cologne_] (11.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2008; 1x3)
> 20th September 2014: *A4 Düren - Kerpen* [direction _Aachen_] (11.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2008; 2x3)
> Until Mid September 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n Günzburg and west of Burgau* (7.3km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)
> Mid September 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> September 2014: *A4 Magdala - Jena-Göschwitz* (11.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2007; 2x3)
> September 2014: *B85 2+1 widening b/n March and Metten* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since August 2013)
> September 2014: *B521 Nidderau bypass*, 1st section (1.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> September 2014: *B41 2x2 widening Ingelheim-West (A60) - Ingelheim* (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
> Late 29th September 2014: *A281 Bremen-Seehausen - Bremen-Strom* (4.1km; OSM; u/c since April 2009; 2x2)
> Until Mid Late September 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n east of Burgau and Zusmarshausen* (5.7km; OSM; u/c since August 2011)


Sources: > click < (A8), > click < (A62), > click < (A281), > click < (B243). I've no idea why I've forgot the B256 and B462 hno:.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A8 widening is coming along quite nicely.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, between Ulm and Augsburg. 50% will be 2x3 by late September 2014, the rest by September 2015. It's a PPP project.


----------



## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> There are usually signs that it is not allowed to use the left lane if your car has a width of more than 2.0m. It's with mirrors but in your documents the width is always w/o mirrors! As far as I know most of all cars which are registered in Germany have more than 2.0m (I guess including my car ). That means, the left lane should always be very empty, but it isn't! I still feel very safe using the left lane but I try to pass trucks as fast as possible to avoid to drive side by side. The standard speed limit is 80km/h.
> 
> There are four attempts to improve the situation:
> 1. Reduce the speed limit to 60 km/h
> 2. Forbid overtaking, cars should drive staggered
> 3. Allow car width of 2.1m on the left lane
> 4. Reduce the number of lanes (2+1 instead of 2x2)
> 
> 3. is often only possible in combination with 4.


Come on now, the width which is in the papers must be incl. mirrors (Width over all - Breite über alles). And truly, many cars are over 2,0m. 
But I have seen the tendency to allow 2,10-2,15 sometimes even 2,20 on motorway roadworks.

What I found dangerous is to go at (the signed) 60 kph in the right lane when the truck behind me didn't agree with that. Resulting in extremely aggressive tailgating, honking and headlight flashing. On the other hand side, speed controls have increased considerably, especially in roadwork areas.


----------



## mcarling

MichiH said:


> 50% will be 2x3 until late September 2014, the rest until September 2015.


Huh??? It will be 2x3 until (means all the time between now and) late September ... and then what will it be after September?

I thought it will be 2x2 until late September and then 2x3 after September. I'm confused. Did you mean that it will be 2x3 by late September? Or is it being widened from 2x3 to 2x4?


----------



## MichiH

^^ It's a PPP project. It comprises 6 sections. 3 sections will be 2x3 in service until late September 2014, the remaining 3 sections will be completed until September 2015 .


----------



## Suburbanist

What is the current interest on PPP projects in Germany? Are there many of them? Do they usually get completed faster and cheaper than regular projects taken directly by states?


----------



## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> Come on now, the width which is in the papers must be incl. mirrors (Width over all - Breite über alles). And truly, many cars are over 2,0m.


It isn't. German media reported it 3 years ago.

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/uebergrosse-autos-viel-zu-breit-a-795662.html
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/verengte-spur-fahrzeugbreite-1806710.html


----------



## hjf

Kanadzie said:


> I'm curious, they built that orange-red structure to narrow the pillars for 6 lanes ? How did they _build _that? (without whole thing falling down)


Albeit in German. But I am sure babelfish will help:
http://www.baumaschine.de/fachzeitschriften/baumaschinen/bauportal_dateien/2002/heft4/a184_188.pdf/at_download/file

Best 
sigma


----------



## keber

John Maynard said:


> Note how the vegetation has became denser, so did the traffic :lol:.


And overtaking is now allowed


----------



## Suburbanist

Kanadzie said:


> I'm curious, they built that orange-red structure to narrow the pillars for 6 lanes ? How did they _build _that? (without whole thing falling down)


It is just a variation of the technique of anchoring-and-digging, where you build an anchor (like pillars and an injected slab under a roadway, for instance, or a base under existing houses/buildings for a subway tunnel) and then remove rocks/earth/whatever after the load is already bearing the new structure.


----------



## MichiH

Dash cam = bad
Body cam = good

http://www.hamburg.de/pressearchiv-fhh/4366188/2014-09-02-bis-pm-bodycam/


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ That's ridiculous.


----------



## Heico-M

They will find loads of occasions where the material must not be used.
That is the most ridiculous thing: Imagine you catch crime on cam, everyone can see it, but it cannot be used, because the criminal did not agree to get filmed.
Data protection :bash:


----------



## Heico-M

A new bridge over the Fehmarn sound will be built.

http://www.shz.de/schleswig-holstei...bruecken-ueber-den-fehmarnsund-id7581686.html


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## cinxxx

Around 10% more dead and wounded this year compared to first half of 2013.

1576 people died in the first six months of 2014 because of accidents (137 persons more or 9.5%). 
The number of injured grew by 10.6%, at around 185600.
The number of accidents was lower though, from 1,15 mil to 1.2% lower.

For more info see the articles below. I'm to lazy to translate 










https://www.destatis.de/DE/ZahlenFa...ssionid=40366817228D3B389F16E5547453B253.cae3

https://www.destatis.de/DE/PresseService/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2014/08/PD14_297_46241.html


----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> 1576 people died in the first six months of 2014 because of accidents (137 persons more or 9.5%).


2013 was the best year ever.
3339 people died in 2013.
3600 people died in 2012.
10631 people died in 1992.

http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/18/024/1802420.pdf


----------



## Road_UK

Excuse me? 10631? Germans are wild cowboys....


----------



## MichiH

^^ More than 20 years ago, in 1992. Even 11,300 in 1991.
The number of killed people per million inhabitants decreased from 14.2 (1991) to 4.1 (2013) and the number of killed people per billion kilometers decreased from 19.8 (1991) to 4.6 (2013).
The number of killed people per million inhabitants in Sweden was 2.8 in 2013. NL, UK: 2.9; Spain 3.7; Austria 5.3; Luxembourg and Poland: 8.7; Romania: 9.2 (see page 20 of above linked document).


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



MichiH said:


> 5th September 2014: *B243 Bad Lauterberg - Bad Sachsa* (8.6km; OSM; u/c since October 2008; 2x2)
> 5th September 2014: *A9 2x3 widening b/n Triptis and Schleiz* (16.0km; OSM; u/c since October 2011; PPP)
> 13th September 2014: *A66 Neuhof-South - Neuhof-North* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since October 2005; 2x2)
> 13th September 2014: *B25 Wallerstein and Ehringen bypass* (3.6 km; OSM; u/c since June 2013; partial 2+1)
> 17th September 2014: *A4 Düren - Kerpen* [direction _Cologne_] (11.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2008; 1x3)
> 20th September 2014: *A4 Düren - Kerpen* [direction _Aachen_] (11.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2008; 2x3)
> AugustMid September 2014: *A62 2nd carriageway b/n south of Weselberg to Schwarzbach viaduct* (3.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
> Mid September 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n Günzburg and west of Burgau* (7.3km; OSM; u/c since August 2011; PPP)
> Mid September 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> Mid September 2014: *B85 2+1 widening b/n March and Metten* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since August 2013)
> September 2014: *B41 2x2 widening Ingelheim-West (A60) - Ingelheim* (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
> 29th September 2014: *A281 Bremen-Seehausen - Bremen-Strom* (4.1km; OSM; u/c since April 2009; 2x2)
> Late September 2014: *A8 2x3 widening b/n east of Burgau and Zusmarshausen* (5.7km; OSM; u/c since August 2011; PPP)
> Late September2014:*B256 Rengsdorf bypass* (4.2km; OSM; u/c since July 2006)
> Late September 2014: *B521 Nidderau bypass*, 1st section (1.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late September 2014: *A1 2x3 widening b/n AK Münster-South (A43) and Dortmund-Ems-Canal bridge* (3.2km; OSM; u/c since October 2012)


B243 source (2; opened; 98 million €), A62 source (the 2nd carriageway will be completed within the next two weeks; northbound carriageway will remain 1-laned until late October 2014) and A9 source (only the official opening ceremony took place; both carriageways are in service but most of it only 2-laned; the 3rd lane will be opened until Late November 2014; press release; 2).


----------



## verreme

Road_UK said:


> Excuse me? 10631? Germans are wild cowboys....


That was a pretty good figure in 1992. Spain had record-highs of around 10,000 deaths in the first years of that decade, yet we were a lot less (and had a lot less cars) than in Germany.


----------



## MichiH

*A6 Mannheim - Heilbronn - Nuremberg*



MichiH said:


> The *A6 b/n AK Walldorf* (A5; near _Mannheim_/_Heidelberg_) *and AK Weinsberg* (A81; near _Heilbronn_) already features 3 lanes eastwards, partial w/o hard shoulders. Westwards, there are still two gaps with 2 lanes only. The section has a length of 54km (OSM) and is the main connection b/n France and Czech Republic. The AADT was b/n 64,000 and 89,000 vehicles/day in 2010, the truck share was about 20% (source).
> 
> The 1348 meter long Neckarbrücke viaduct near Heilbronn must be renewed (OSM; age of 57 years). The number of lanes was reduced from 3 to 2 lanes last October to avoid more damage (fatigue crack in the welding seams) which causes daily congestion (this section has the maximum AADT of 89,000). The plan approval order was passed in 1998 but the plans have been modified and a new plan approval procedure was started in April 2014.
> 
> The plan approval orders for the two other sections were passed in July 2012 (7.6km section) or April 2013 (10.8km section). It is upgrade the A6 as a PPP project. The press officer of the Federal Minstry of Transport has recently announced that the award procedure will take two years, the works could been started in 2016/17. A 8.7km section near _Sinsheim_ was built in 2010/11.


The A6 tender procedure has been started, see press release. The PPP section begins at i/c Wiesloch/Rauenberg and ends at the i/c Weinsberg. The contract contains 25km to be upgraded and 22km which are already 2x3. It includes the new Neckar viaduct. The contract period will be 30 years for maintenance. The awarding of the contract will begin in the 2nd quarter of 2015. It's planned to sign the contract in late 2016. The inception of treaty (and construction begin) should be in early 2017.

PS: Baden-Württemberg has entered into the DEGES company (federal infrastructure planning company), see press release.


----------



## MichiH

*B266:* AS Bad Neuenahr (A573) – AS Bad Neuenahr-East 12 1.8km (February 2009 to December 2015) - project – map

The project is 'on schedule'. The road will get into service in mid of 2016. Total costs: 47.5 million €. See news article.


----------



## Road_UK

MichiH said:


> ^^ More than 20 years ago, in 1992. Even 11,300 in 1991.
> The number of killed people per million inhabitants decreased from 14.2 (1991) to 4.1 (2013) and the number of killed people per billion kilometers decreased from 19.8 (1991) to 4.6 (2013).
> The number of killed people per million inhabitants in Sweden was 2.8 in 2013. NL, UK: 2.9; Spain 3.7; Austria 5.3; Luxembourg and Poland: 8.7; Romania: 9.2 (see page 20 of above linked document).





verreme said:


> That was a pretty good figure in 1992. Spain had record-highs of around 10,000 deaths in the first years of that decade, yet we were a lot less (and had a lot less cars) than in Germany.


I am a bit shocked actually. In the 80's and early 90's the Germans were among the best drivers in Europe. They were fast but disciplined. The discipline has gone right down the drain, but apparently it saves lives...


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ don't forget major improvements in emergency services, vehicle design / crash safety and road design!


----------



## Heico-M

Around the year 1970 we counted like 20,000 road deaths only in West Germany. 
If you see the relation of traffic density then and now, with the number of road deaths then and now, 
all I can say that road safety in Middle Europe is quite a success story.

Of course, it is not because drivers are so much better today. Sure enough it is the technical improvement of cars themselves alongside with improved road safety.


----------



## Road_UK

I'm enjoying those Russian driver videos with spectacular crashes on YouTube. I bet they pretty much go through our 70s right now, because you hardly see any European or American ones on YouTube...


----------



## keokiracer

Road_UK said:


> I'm enjoying those Russian driver videos with spectacular crashes on YouTube.


In that case, I've got a rather brutal one on my Youtube channel if you're interested  (click on your own risk)



Road_UK said:


> because you hardly see any European or American ones on YouTube...


Which also has to do with the fact that outside of Russia dashcams aren't nearly as popular so therefor the chance of getting a crash caught on tape is a lot lower.
btw: there used to be a lot of American clips, but that channel got repeatedly harrassed with copyright claims so he eventually just gave up on the channel.

Some European compilations:
My own Best of Dutch Dashcam series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMfd63UrKLqRm0fQPEY9sLDHoDTyv0Xy6
Best of European Driving Captures series by a friend of mine: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZtrzbMK0ObehTIGQA3HX9n7NJ86wMYdJ

Nortern America:
Greater Vancouver Area crash compilations: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2CRUkTt2I9Q0QuQuvlMJiQKZyJ5F0gHF
Greater Toronte Area Crash compilation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0TMO9y7HQ


edit: I thought this was the roadside rest area, not the German highway thread. Oops, sorry for the off-topic


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The A6 tender procedure has been started, see press release. The PPP section begins at i/c Wiesloch/Rauenberg and ends at the i/c Weinsberg.


The tender procedure was stopped by the Federal Minstry of Transport a few hours after publishing (source; reason unknown).


----------



## Bender

I am getting really mad at the lack of progress in the tunnel construction (South-North) in downtown Düsseldorf. It took years to build and it's been 99.99% completed for months. As a result, only 1 lane is opened when you need minimum 2 to keep a reasonable flow of cars.
They have not done ANYTHING is months in that tunnel. Fuc*** open the additional lanes already :bleep:

The whole project looks like a nice waste of taxpayers money for now. Might be better once completed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The installation and testing of technical tunnel installations take considerable time. While a tunnel may appear finished on the outside, it can easily take six months to over a year to implement all tunneling systems. The amount of systems runs in the hundreds.


----------



## Bender

The tunnel in question is a few hundreds meters long only. It is open already but for some reason they have blocked everything but one lane.

There has been scaffolding on a wall close to the exit for months. Work seems complete but nothing has moved in 2 months. I don't spend my days in the tunnel but as far as I can tell, nothing has been done in weeks. It's very frustrating to sit in traffic and see the complete lack of progress, or even worse what appears to be a completely finished road that you can't use.

We are talking Düsseldorf downtown - so that concerns quite many people. You'd think they would come up with a quick solution whatever the problem might be.


----------



## Morsue

keokiracer said:


> In that case, I've got a rather brutal one on my Youtube channel if you're interested  (click on your own risk)


Wow, that really was sick. I stopped watching after a person got hit by a sliding truck. It looks like people die in these accidents. How can this be allowed on Youtube?


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## keokiracer

Morsue said:


> Wow, that really was sick. I stopped watching after a person got hit by a sliding truck. It looks like people die in these accidents. How can this be allowed on Youtube?


It's marked as 18+ and that's enough according to Youtube. 
btw: I've seen liquidations on youtube (well, almost, I managed to click away on time) so this is nothing compared to that.
I 'like' how you only clicked away after the Chinese guys got hit by the truck (in which nobody died) but managed to watch the clip that had a person katapulted 20 meters up into the sky...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> The tender procedure was stopped by the Federal Minstry of Transport a few hours after publishing (source; reason unknown).


There was something incomplete in the tender documents. They expect to relaunch the tender late this week.

http://www.swr.de/landesschau-aktue...endig/-/id=1562/nid=1562/did=14140108/92pzbh/


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## Road_UK

keokiracer said:


> In that case, I've got a rather brutal one on my Youtube channel if you're interested  (click on your own risk)


Fucking hell!


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> There was something incomplete in the tender documents. They expect to relaunch the tender late this week.
> 
> http://www.swr.de/landesschau-aktue...endig/-/id=1562/nid=1562/did=14140108/92pzbh/


Wrong. The Federal Ministry of Transport has not given any reason within the deadline the tender procedure could be canceled. The Baden-Württemberg Ministry of Transport has not stopped the tender procedure, see press release.


----------



## MichiH

*A3 Aschaffenburg - Würzburg (2x3 widening)*

Some documents:
- Overview _Aschaffenburg_ - _Würzburg_ (94km; 1.3 billion €; completion: late 2019)
- Detailed overview Aschaffenburg - Würzburg (pics and info of all sections)
- Details of the _Kauppenbrücke_-_Rohrbrunn_ section (u/c 2013-2015; 5km additional eastbound lane)
- Details of the _Wertheim_ section (u/c 2014/15-2017; 7km additional eastbound lane)
- Details of the _Würzburg_ section (u/c 2012/14-2019; additional westbound lane; very detailed with many pics and info about complaints, variants,...)


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## MichiH

*A66 Neuhof*

*A66 Neuhof-South - Neuhof-North* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since October 2005; 2x2)

The opening ceremony took place today, see press release. People are still on the road, see pics in a news article. The article also says that the road should be opened for traffic around 4PM. Another news article from yesterday contains 38 pics. The section has a length of about 3.7km (the press release and the news article say 3.5km; I always thought - according to info I found years ago - it has a length of 4.6km), the section contains a 1.6km artificial tunnel. The total costs are 117.6 million €. The A66 is completed between _Hanau_ (A45) and _Fulda_ (A7) now. There is still an A66 gap left in the city of _Frankfurt_.


----------



## Suburbanist

> The opening ceremony took place today, see press release. People are still on the road, see pics in a news article. The article also says that the road should be opened for traffic around 4PM. Another news article from yesterday contains 38 pics. The section has a length of about 3.7km (the press release and the news article say 3.5km; I always thought - according to info I found years ago - it has a length of 4.6km), the section contains a 1.6km artificial tunnel. The total costs are 117.6 million €. The A66 is completed between _Hanau_ (A45) and _Fulda_ (A7) now. There is still an A66 gap left in the city of _Frankfurt_.


9 years of construction hno:

In any case, when should we expect to see A66 linked with A661 in Frankfurt?


----------



## MichiH

^^ The project also contained a new railroad station.

Anyway, the groundbreaking ceremony of the last 2.6km A66 section east of the A661 took place on 23rd September 2009 (OSM). Only some analysis works have been done meanwhile and the construction of the AD with the A661 has been started (adding the 2nd A661 carriageway). The tunnel works should begin in 2016. Completion: 2022+.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Will B40 be removed? They built a tunnel for A66, but it appears that both the railroad and B40 are still above ground right next to it.


----------



## MichiH

^^ The B40 will not be closed but the B40 b/n Neuhof-North and Fulda has been removed.


----------



## Suburbanist

MichiH said:


> ^^ The B40 will not be closed but the B40 b/n Neuhof-North and Fulda has been removed.


What do you mean by removed? Demolished and cleared up, or transferred to local authorities jurisdiction as city streets?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Demolished. The road does not exist anymore.


----------



## MichiH

*A66 Neuhof*

More details about the costs: > click <.

Tunnel: 118 Mio €
Motorway: 36 Mio €
Railway: 60 Mio €

The costs are high and the construction time was long because a little river had to be displaced, the B40 had to be displaced, the ground was very tricky etcetera. The 2nd link on the project page opens a presentation with many (old) pics of the construction [I cannot link it; SSC problem].

The westbound carriageway is in service since 15:37PM, the eastbound carriageway since 21:54PM.


----------



## HAWC1506

So last year, I put up some German signs on an American highway for fun...Next week, I'm moving to Munich to pursue my master's in transportation engineering at Technische Universität München. 

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you on this thread for keeping me very well informed about German Autobahns and answering my questions. It definitely helped with both my previous internship and also my application to TUM. I've been following this thread since 2007, back when Radi was obsessing over shiny crash barriers :nuts:

I'll be in Germany for at least the next two years, so now maybe I can make my own contributions to this thread  Couldn't have done this without your help!

And to Chriszwolle: :cheers:



HAWC1506 said:


> If anyone's interested, a U.S. highway was transported to Europe for an hour
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More here


----------



## MichiH

Bender said:


> The tunnel in question is a few hundreds meters long only. It is open already but for some reason they have blocked everything but one lane.


http://www.derwesten.de/staedte/duesseldorf/koe-bogen-tunnel-bald-fertig-id9820234.html

The "Nord-Süd-Tunnel" (North-South-Tunnel) in Düsseldorf was opened on 14th May. The remaining lanes will probably be opened on 6th October 6AM. Meanwhile the test of the ventilating system is done.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH, do you know when B19 around Bad Mergentheim will open? 

A news article said 'October'. 

http://www.fnweb.de/region/main-tauber/bad-mergentheim/sudumgehung-im-oktober-fertig-1.1767603


----------



## MichiH

^^ 27th October 2014 (source). I will update the upcoming-openings-list "soon".


----------



## MichiH

*A4 Jagdbergtunnel*



Deadeye Reloaded said:


> A nice picture from the new Jagdberg tunnel on the A4 near Jena. :uh:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^
> The opening is planned for the end of October or early November. They have to do some additional safety checks.
> 
> Source


Eastern tunnel access two weeks ago:


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> September Late July 2014: *B41 2x2 widening Ingelheim-West (A60) - Ingelheim* (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
> September 2014: *B17 2+1 widening Hohenwart – Denklingen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since March 2014)
> Late 23rd September 2014: *B256 Rengsdorf bypass* (4.2km; OSM; u/c since July 2006)
> 29th September 2014: *A281 Bremen-Seehausen - Bremen-Strom* (4.1km; OSM; u/c since April 2009; 2x2)
> Late 30th September 2014: *B521 Nidderau bypass*, 1st section (1.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Mid Late September 2014: *A62 2nd carriageway South of Weselberg - Schwarzbach viaduct* (3.6km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
> 
> 8th October 2014: *A1 2x3 widening AK Münster-South (A43) - Dortmund-Ems-Canal bridge* (3.2km; OSM; u/c since October 2012)
> Early 20th October 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Burgau - Zusmarshausen* (5.7km; OSM; u/c since August 2011; PPP)
> 
> 27th October 2014: *B19 Bad Mergentheim bypass* (2.7km; OSM; u/c since May 2013)
> 29th October 2014: *A14 Colbitz - Wolmirstedt* (5.7km; OSM; 2x2)
> October 2014: *B12 2+1 widening Kraftisried – Unterthingau* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since Early 2014)
> October 2014: *B104 Schlutup bypass* (2.0km; OSM; u/c since November 2006; was suspended meanwhile)
> Late October 2014: *B45 Nidderau bypass*, 2nd section (0.8km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> 
> Late October Early November 2014: *A4 Magdala - Jena-Göschwitz* (11.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2007; 2x3)
> November 2014: *A8 Bergen viaduct* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since May 2010; 2x3 but remains 2x2 until the next section will be widened)
> November 2014: *B14 2x2 widening Danube bridge Tuttlingen* (0.6km; OSM; u/c since August 2013)
> November 2014: *B101 Krögis bypass* (1.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2013)
> November 2014: *B174 2x2 widening Chemnitz-Südring – Chemnitz outskirt* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> Mid September November 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> November 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> Late November 2014: *A9 2x3 widening Triptis - Schleiz* (16.0km; OSM; u/c since October 2011; PPP)
> Late November 2014: *A26 Horneburg - Jork* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since Summer 2006; 1x2 direction _Stade_ only)
> Late November 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> 
> December 2014: *B2 Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – South of Untersteinbach* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since October 2012; 2x2)
> December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen (B183)* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> Fall December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> 
> Fall 2014: *A524 Duisburg-Huckingen – West of AK Duisburg-South (A59)* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since February 2010)
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)
> Late 2014: *A10 2x3 widening AD Havelland - Klein-Ziethen* (2.4km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> Late 2014: *A24 West of Kremmen - AD Havelland* (3.0km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> 
> December 2014 2015: *A40 2x3 widening AD Bochum-Stahlhausen* (?km; OSM; u/c since Late 2009)
> 2014 2015: *B304 relocation near Mühlreit* (2.0km; OSM; u/c since September 2011; suspended in 2014)


A1 source, A4 source, A8 source, A40 source, A281 source, B17 source, B19 source, B41 source, B207 source, B255 source, B256 source, B304 source and B521 source.


----------



## Attus

Moseltalbrücke (Mosel Vally Bridge) of motorway A61:
A61 Moseltalbrücke by Attus74, on Flickr

More images HERE.


----------



## SRC_100

Anybody knows when this (below on picture) part of A8 between AS Wellingen - AS Schwellingen is going to be upgraded to full pofile? On polish forum I`ve read that tender had been announced some time ago and completion is scheduled for 2017 year, is it true?



PrzemoBTC said:


>


----------



## MichiH

*A8 Wellingen*



SRC_100 said:


> Anybody knows when this (below on picture) part of A8 between AS Wellingen - AS Schwellingen is going to be upgraded to full pofile? On polish forum I`ve read that tender had been announced some time ago and completion is scheduled for 2017 year, is it true?


I've posted an info on 1st August:



MichiH said:


> - *A8 2x2 widening Merzig-Wellingen - Merzig-Schwellingen* (3.5km; OSM; 38 million €; plan approval order: Early 2014?; groundbreaking: Fall 2014; source)


The Federal Minster of Transport, Mr. Dobrindt (CSU party) - who wants to indrotuce the car toll for foreigners -, made a list in July and said that the projects are funded. In total 27 projects were recently discussed in the budget committee of the Bundestag. Only 6 projects have been officially added to the construction plan ("Straßenbauplan"). 5 projects are currently checked by the Federal Ministry of Finance, 16 projects are just 'in the pool'.

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...trassenbau-Projekte-von-Dobrindt-wackeln.html

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nac...senbauprojekte-bislang-nicht-umsetzen-003.htm

The A3 widening sectiion near Wertheim is u/c now. The groundbreaking ceremony of the B300 was today. The info about the schedule of the A43 project is very detailed, the clearance works began one week ago. I've no idea if the A8 project is one of the remain three projects (6 minus 3).

The construction time of the A8 should be 3 years.


----------



## Blackraven

Wow so well-lighted.










The future of German road tunnel technology =)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

80 km/h speed limit?


----------



## Pepov

I am pretty sure in other country it would be 100 km/h


----------



## Wilhem275

Or 130


----------



## x-type

Pepov said:


> I am pretty sure in other country it would be 100 km/h


not necessarily. Retards have lowered vmax in most of the tunnels here in HR from 100 to 80 km/h this summer


----------



## Road_UK

In the Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Spain, Austria and Belgium general speed limits through tunnels are 100 km/h. In Italy 130 through some tunnels.


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> In the Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Spain, Austria and Belgium general speed limits through tunnels are 100 km/h.* In Italy 130 through some tunnels.*


Most of them, actually.


----------



## Wilhem275

I would even say all of them, except on motorways which have a general lower limit.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I'm getting the impression driving in Italy can be, um, stimulating. No disrespect intended. :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm getting the impression driving in Italy can be, um, stimulating. No disrespect intended. :cheers:


Driving in Italy is a test for nerves. 
Problem is that you have a very high chance of getting away with everything (speeding, overtaking recklessly, talking at the phone, etc) because the police doesn't do anything.


----------



## Road_UK

g.spinoza said:


> Most of them, actually.


On the Mont Blanc approach some of them is limited. Same on the Brenner road...


----------



## g.spinoza

Road_UK said:


> On the Mont Blanc approach some of them is limited. Same on the Brenner road...


Not sure about mont blanc, but if I remember correctly Brenner tunnels after Bolzano are limited to 110 because the whole motorway is limited to 110, not just the tunnels.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Tell me guys where the pavement of a motorways is better, in Germany or in Austria?


----------



## DanielFigFoz

The cars in Germany on average (at least in that video) look a fair bit younger than here.


----------



## SRC_100

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Tell me guys where the pavement of a motorways is better, in Germany or in Austria?


I would say that motorways are little bit better in Austria, but there are not big differences between them.


----------



## flierfy

MichiH said:


> The westbound tube was opened one day earlier: http://www.thueringen.de/th9/tmblv/presse/pm/81992/index.aspx.


When exactly did they do that? I drove there at 16:45 this very afternoon and was guided through the Leutra Valley as usual.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
I couldn´t find any source which says that they already opened the first tube. On the other hand MichiH posted the official press release of the state of Thuringia that claims otherwise. :dunno:

*Here is a very interesting video about safety tests conducted some days ago in the tunnel. :yes:
It´s in German but you can see the extreme expensive high-tech fire suppression system in action. opcorn: *

*Some numbers:*

-The Jagdbergtunnel is Germany´s 4th longest Autobahntunnel

-There is a 147 m high shaft in the middle of the tunnel connecting it with a ventilator building on top of the mountain (you can see it in the video above)

-129 cameras are installed in both tubes

-they used 480 t of explosives during the construction time

Source


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It could be a press release that was released too early.

The BMVI also speaks of 'heute' (published 30.10.2014)

http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pressemitteilungen/2014/113-reiche-a4-thueringen.html


----------



## MichiH

*A4 Jagdbergtunnel*



flierfy said:


> When exactly did they do that? I drove there at 16:45 this very afternoon and was guided through the Leutra Valley as usual.


The westbound tube was not opened yesterday. It was only inaugurated and the press release is inaccurate hno:.
It was announced to be opened for traffic today 9:30 AM (source) and it was really opened this morning (source).


----------



## MichiH

*A14*

2014 aerial videos of the u/c A14 sections in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (Mecklenburg-West Pomerania) and Brandenburg:





 Karstädt-Groß Warnow, July 2014





 Groß Warnow, September 2014





 AD Schwerin, September 2014


----------



## flierfy

It looks quite strange to see tractors deployed for doing the earthworks. But then again it's rather sand than earth they are moving there.


----------



## MichiH




----------



## Road_UK

*Is this the longest motorway in Germany?*

Last night I travelled from the Netherlands back to Austria. From the Dutch border I take the A3 to Oberhausen, and I exit there to stay on the A3 towards Cologne. From there it's a straight run without using exits all the way to Munich, as the A3 changes into A9 at Nürnberg. To stay on the A3 towards Regensburg you have to take an exit again.

I had this thought last night. If you get on the A2 at Berlin, and keep on sitting on it without taking exits, you'll wind up in Munich via Hanover, Oberhausen and Frankfurt. It keeps on changing numbers (A2, A3, A9) but it's still a straight run without exits.... So not looking at the numbers, it must be the longest straight motorway in Germany.


----------



## flierfy

It actually starts at Potsdam Junction and goes all the way to München-Schwabing. It's not exactly straight either but it certainly is the longest central reservation in Germany and maybe even in Europe. One the lanes on this route may also be the longest one at least in Germany.


----------



## Wilhem275

1278 km: we win! 

https://maps.google.nl/maps?saddr=A...A;FdSQRAIdIuPuAA&t=m&mra=dme&mrsp=2&sz=17&z=6

(interesting experiment, indeed)

Maybe some cross-border route running through Germany is even longer.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Who's "we"? Aren't you Dutch now? :jk:


----------



## Wilhem275

Following the best European tradition, I quickly shift to the most convenient "we", depending on who's winning :lol:


----------



## flierfy

Wilhem275 said:


> Following the best European tradition, I quickly shift to the most convenient "we", depending on who's winning


That's not a European tradition but an Italian one.


----------



## g.spinoza

It's called survival instinct. Others (the French) surrender on day 1. Everyone's got his own ways.


----------



## CNGL

:troll:
https://www.google.es/maps/dir/38.3337317,114.7204718/22.9207089,113.3938918/@30.6243665,114.8268254,5z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d113.3798898!2d29.3249073!3s0x34262d340eb20cdf:0xae45d7a5348e45c!1m0!3e0

Too bad the G4 North of there is under reconstruction/widening .


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Yes, but they were talking about Europe.
What's the longest straight motorway in the world? I-90?


----------



## Road_UK

Is I-90 continious without having to take exits?


----------



## Penn's Woods

I think it should work from Chicago to Seattle.


----------



## Road_UK

Allright, well, I'll bring my van over to New York and I'll start driving. Will let you know the outcome....


----------



## Penn's Woods

Penn's Woods said:


> I think it should work from Chicago to Seattle.


Or from here https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.986145,-90.44632&spn=0.146238,0.338173&t=h&z=12 to Seattle.


----------



## MichiH

^^^^ Be careful east of Tomah, you could end up on the I-94...


----------



## keokiracer

Penn's Woods said:


> I think it should work from Chicago to Seattle.





Penn's Woods said:


> Or from here https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.986145,-90.44632&spn=0.146238,0.338173&t=h&z=12 to Seattle.



Nope, 
I-90xI-94 at Billings screws that up.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Allright, well, I'll bring my van over to New York and I'll start driving. Will let you know the outcome....


Boston, not New York, if you want to get the entirety of I-90. Starts right at Logan Airport, conveniently.

We need Chris for an authoritative answer. I-80 may work from about Portage, Indiana, to San Francisco, which would be longer....


----------



## keokiracer

Penn's Woods said:


> We need Chris for an authoritative answer. I-80 may work from about Portage, Indiana, to San Francisco, which would be longer....


No, you need to start at the I-295 in Chicago (where you exit onto I-80), then need to follow I-280 (not I-80) around Davenport but you 'get stuck' following I-80 at Des Moines, where on the westside of the city you need to exit to follow I-80
From Chicago to there is 300-350 miles.
Then you have 474 miles ontil you need to exit near the Nebraska-Colorado border. You get 1161 miles if you follow I-76 (and I-70), you end up 'stranded' at I-15 where you have to exit northbound or southbound.
Back to I-80. After that split it's 578 miles to Salt Lake City, where you have to merge onto I-15.


A good one which was prettysurprising, was Salt Lake City to San Diego (I-5 Mexican border) via Sacramento with 1165 miles


----------



## keokiracer

Penn's Woods said:


> Or from here https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.986145,-90.44632&spn=0.146238,0.338173&t=h&z=12 to Seattle.


If you take I-94 there you can get 1578 miles with this unexpected route


----------



## Penn's Woods

keokiracer said:


> No, you need to start at the I-295 in Chicago (where you exit onto I-80), then need to follow I-280 (not I-80) around Davenport but you 'get stuck' following I-80 at Des Moines, where on the westside of the city you need to exit to follow I-80
> From Chicago to there is 300-350 miles.
> Then you have 474 miles ontil you need to exit near the Nebraska-Colorado border. You get 1161 miles if you follow I-76 (and I-70), you end up 'stranded' at I-15 where you have to exit northbound or southbound.
> Back to I-80. After that split it's 578 miles to Salt Lake City, where you have to merge onto I-15.
> 
> 
> A good one which was prettysurprising, was Salt Lake City to San Diego (I-5 Mexican border) via Sacramento with 1165 miles


I thought of I-15 at Salt Lake as soon as I'd hit send on my I-80 post. Obviously, I'm not thinking these things through.

And Verso's going to yell at us any minute now for being off-topic, anyway.


----------



## CNGL

I yell for him: WE ARE OFF-TOPIC. This is for the no-speed-limited German motorways (Autobahnen).

I'm going to open a new thread for this, in order to keep this one confined to West Germany.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Road_UK started it.


----------



## Wilhem275

Where's the new thread? 

I got a Genova - Paris of 1172 km...


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1770897


----------



## Max BGF

MichiH said:


>


The radius seems quite narrow for high speed or is this due to perspective?



MichiH said:


> One intersection with traffic lights will remain south of the Leuzetunnel after completion (Uferstraße/Poststraße: OSM).


Another intersection will remain northward the Leuzetunnel (Esslingen -> City x Wilhelma -> Esslingen), just better positioned than the existing U-Turn.

All in all still a major improvement.


----------



## MichiH

Max BGF said:


> The radius seems quite narrow for high speed or is this due to perspective?


I think so. The entire 9.1km section will be completed in late 2015. The first 2x3 easternmost subsection will get in service in late November 2014, the westermost in December. The A8 section with the Pfinztal viaduct and the Klosterweg viaduct will remain 2x2 for now.



Max BGF said:


> Another intersection will remain northward the Leuzetunnel (Esslingen -> City x Wilhelma -> Esslingen), just better positioned than the existing U-Turn.
> All in all still a major improvement.


Yes, it is.


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a question: when Germany was reunified in 1990, were all former DDR fleet given permanent exemption for the more advanced safety and pollution regulations that applied to West Germany fleet? Did the government put up some scheme to help East German businesses and government entities replace very unsafe/polluting trucks and vans with more modern ones?


----------



## MichiH




----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: when Germany was reunified in 1990, were all former DDR fleet given permanent exemption for the more advanced safety and pollution regulations that applied to West Germany fleet? Did the government put up some scheme to help East German businesses and government entities replace very unsafe/polluting trucks and vans with more modern ones?


Probably. Not really the right thread to discuss this though...


----------



## SRC_100

Max BGF said:


> The radius seems quite narrow for high speed or is this due to perspective?


Due to perspective for sure.


----------



## Max BGF

MichiH said:


> I think so. The entire 9.1km section will be completed in late 2015. The first 2x3 easternmost subsection will get in service in late November 2014, the westermost in December. The A8 section with the Pfinztal viaduct and the Klosterweg viaduct will remain 2x2 for now.


Sorry for inquiring. I meant - as answered by @SRC_100 - if this section will be speed limited, since the curve radius seems to be quite narrow.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I've no idea but I don't think there will be a speed limit because of the curve radius (they are not critical). Maybe because of noise protection.


----------



## MichiH

*A4 near Jena (Jagdbergtunnel)*

Pics of the new A4: http://www.eautobahn.de/html/freigabe_rifa_aachen.html.



g.spinoza said:


> What happens to the old A4 alignment?
> EDIT: I read the document. If I understand correctly it will be dismantled?


Pics of the old A4 (dismanteling has already begun): http://www.eautobahn.de/html/ruckbau_leutrataltrasse.html.


----------



## MichiH

*A26 Stade - Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> The A26 section b/n _Horneburg_ and _Jork_ will be opened in late November 2014 (direction _Stade_ only; trucks are not allowed). The road is almost completed, only some guard rail and signposting is missing.
> 
> btw: It's defined by the plan apporval order of section 2 (_Horneburg_-_Jork_-_Buxtehude_) that an Autobahn end at _Jork_ is not allowed to avoid stressing the residents. The _Jork_ bypass will be opened in May 2015. *The authority will monitor the traffic changes. Maybe the Hamburg direction b/n Jork and Horneburg will be opened in 2015.*


The Lower Saxonian Minister of Transport has the aim to open the 2nd carriageway in Summer 2015. Section 4 (up to the A7 in _Hamburg_) is announced to be opened in 2024 (or 2025?). Source (please ignore the damn incorrect diagram).

btw: The Schleswig-Holstein Minister of Transport announced that the plan approval procedure of the A20 Elbe tunnel will still be passed in 2014. Source. The procedure of the next section b/n tunnel and A23 should be passed in 2015, the remaining four plan approval procedures should be passed in 2016.


----------



## MichiH

*A43 widening*



MichiH said:


> - *A43 2x3 widening AS Recklinghausen/Herten – AK Herne* (~7km; OSM; 166 million €; plan approval order: April 2013; groundbreaking: Late 2014; source; expected court hearing: 2015)


The groundbreaking ceremony of th A43 widening took place on 28th October 2014, see press release (2). The AADT is about 80,000 vehicles/day. The 2025 prediction is 95,000. Costs: 202 million €.

Estimated completion: Late 2019 (source).

btw.: The appeals are still pending with a court but the works can begin anyway, see press release.


----------



## MichiH

> 30th October 2014: *B45 Nidderau bypass*, 2nd section (0.8km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> October 2014: *B104 Schlutup bypass* (2.0km; OSM; u/c since November 2006; was suspended meanwhile)


The _Nidderau_ bypass was opened on 30th October 2014 (source).
The _Schlutup_ bypass was opened on 31th October 2014 (source; 2; 10.3 million €; 1.96km; expected AADT: 16,000 vehicles/day).


----------



## MichiH




----------



## MichiH

*A7 (north of) Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> The official groundbreaking ceremony took place on 29th September 2014. You can see the sections and its construction dates here: > click <.
> 
> The works on section 1 (10.6km) and 3 (9.9km) will be started in November 2014 and will be completed in October 2016.


The works will begin on Tuesday. The northbound carriageway will temporarily be widened, see press release.










*Grey: Original carriageway
Yellow: Detraction
Red: Building site
Green: Completed carriageway*


----------



## Wilhem275

MichiH said:


>


80s West Germany is a fascinating mix of grey and modernity... maybe it's because I was a child in those years (born in 1986), but documents from that age always get me.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Everything looks the same as today .The only difference is that the cars are different then in those times.


----------



## Wilhem275

Today you don't have Kraftwerk and the earl possibility of filming a trip using an avantgarde camera


----------



## MichiH

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Everything looks the same as today


A1 _Bremen_ - _Hamburg_ is 2x3 with hard shoulders now


----------



## MichiH

*A6 Mannheim - Heilbronn - Nuremberg*



MichiH said:


> A 6.2km section b/n *Roth (B2 i/c) and Nuremberg-South (A73 i/c)* was widened to 2x3 in 2009/10. The plan approval order for the 6.2km section b/n *Schwabach-West and Roth* was passed in December 2011, the plan approval order for the 3.7km** section from *east of the A73 i/c Nuremberg-South and west of the A3 i/c Nuremberg-East* was passed in November 2009. The last section, the 1.0km upgrade and reconstruction of the *Nuremberg-East i/c* is still in planning stage. OSM. AADT 2010: 66,000 to 76,000, truck share 22%. The number of lanes is described on autobahnatlas-online.de.


The *A6 b/n AK Nuremberg-South (A73) and AK Nuremberg-East (A9)* will be widened to 2x3 lanes. The preliminary works began in spring 2014. The widening of the westbound carriageway will begin in March 2015. The widening of the eastbound carriageway will be done in 2016. Completion: Late 2016. Costs: 62.9 million €. Length: 5.7km**. AADT: 71,000 vehicles/day (16,200 trucks). Predicted AADT 2025: 87,600 vehicles / 17,800 trucks. The 1.63km long noise barrier has a height up to 10m.

http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...tion/projekte/in_bau/a6_ak_nost_ak_nsued.html

http://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernberg/ausbau-der-a6-wird-die-larmbelastung-halbiert-1.3995151

** The length of the plan approval section is 3.7km but the widening section has a lenght of 5.7km including the AK Nuremberg-South.


----------



## MichiH

*A71 Sangerhausen - Erfurt*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no building freeze, the works are only suspended in the affected section. An element of risk remains and cannot be eliminated. The disruptions are on 1.7km, the entire section has a length of 11.4km. The ground will be changed there. The construction time will last about 6 month longer whereby the section will probably be completed in summer 2015, see press release of the state's Transport Ministry.
> 
> 
> 
> The last A71 section b/n _Etzleben_ and _Sömmerda_ is announced to be completed until August 2015 (source; Landtag of Thuringia).
Click to expand...

The additional costs are about 60..70 million € (source). The last info about the costs were announced in a press release of the Thuringian Ministry of Transport from January 2014: 72.6 million € --> ~ 140 million €.


----------



## MichiH

*A4 old alignment near Jena (Jagdberg tunnel)*



g.spinoza said:


> What happens to the old A4 alignment?
> 
> EDIT: I read the document. If I understand correctly it will be dismantled?


Some pics of the old alignment taken by *=michael=*:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^


A4 bei AS Magdala November 2014_008 by marlon_75, on Flickr


A4 bei AS Magdala November 2014_004 by marlon_75, on Flickr


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ marlon_75


He's a friend of =michael=. RAB purists. They usually go on tour together .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I must admit it's much nicer to visit a construction site with another enthusiast, or sometimes a group. You can discuss the things you see and learn a thing or two


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> October September 2014: *B12 2+1 widening Kraftisried – Unterthingau* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since Early 2014)
> 27th October 2014: *B19 Bad Mergentheim bypass* (2.7km; OSM; u/c since May 2013)
> 29th October 2014: *A14 Colbitz - Wolmirstedt* (5.7km; OSM; 2x2)
> 30th October 2014: *A4 Magdala - Jena-Göschwitz* (11.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2007; 2x3; direction Erfurt)
> 30th October 2014: *B45 Nidderau bypass*, 2nd section (0.8km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> 31th October 2014: *B104 Schlutup bypass* (2.0km; OSM; u/c since November 2006; was suspended meanwhile)
> Late <= 7th November 2014: *A9 2x3 widening Triptis - Schleiz* (16.0km; OSM; u/c since October 2011; PPP)
> 
> 18th November 2014: *A4 Magdala - Jena-Göschwitz* (11.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2007; 2x3; direction Dresden)
> Late 18th November 2014: *A24 2x3 widening West of Kremmen - AD Havelland* (3.0km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> Late 18th November 2014: *A10 2x3 widening AD Havelland - Klein-Ziethen* (2.4km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> November 2014: *A8 Bergen viaduct* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since May 2010; 2x3 but remains 2x2 until the next section will be widened)
> November 2014: *B14 2x2 widening Danube bridge Tuttlingen* (0.6km; OSM; u/c since August 2013)
> November 2014: *B174 2x2 widening Chemnitz-Südring – Chemnitz outskirt* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> November 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> November 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> Late November 2014: *A26 Horneburg - Jork* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since Summer 2006; 1x2 direction _Stade_ only)
> Late November 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> Late November 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Klosterweg viaduct – West of Pforzheim-West* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> 
> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> December 2014: *B2 Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – South of Untersteinbach* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since October 2012; 2x2)
> December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen (B183)* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> 
> Fall 2014: *A524 Duisburg-Huckingen – West of AK Duisburg-South (A59)* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since February 2010)
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)


A4 source, A8 source, A9 source, A14 source, B104 source, A10/A24 source, B12 source (I was not sure but it seems, it's already 2+1 since September), B19 source, B45 source.


----------



## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> I must admit it's much nicer to visit a construction site with another enthusiast, or sometimes a group. You can discuss the things you see and learn a thing or two


That's why train nerds often move in herds


----------



## MichiH

*A9 upgrade north of Munich*

An A9 widening from 2x3 to 2x4 lanes b/n AD _Holledau_ and AK _Neufahrn_ (33km; OSM) north of _Munich_ is planned. It's only further demand with planning legislation.

The workaround is to implement temporary shoulder runnings. The first section b/n _Allershausen_ and _Neufahrn_ was completed in 2012. The northbound carriageway b/n _Holledau_ and _Allershausen_ was built in 2014. The construction site was cleared on 12th October. Shoulder running is planned to get in operation in May 2015.

http://www.abdsb.bayern.de/projekte/planung/A9_Seitenstreifenfreigabe.php










It was planned to upgrade the southbound carriageway b/n _Holledau_ and _Allershause_ in 2015 but.... Dem Bund ist das Geld ausgegangen (money run out = no money available). Works will start in 2016 at earliest.

According to the project page (see above) the total costs for the renovation and upgrade b/n _Holledau_ and _Allershausen_ (17km) are (were) 95 million €. The northbound carriageway costed 44 million €. 95 - 44 = 51 million €. According to the news article, the remaining costs for the southbound carriageway are 55 million €.


AADT 2010 (source) - 2013 permanent counting source (Dauerzählstelle):
AS Lenting (60) – AS Ingolstadt-North (61) *78700* / 10467 (13,3%) (2x3) - 2013: *82411* (max: Friday 26th July, 112914)
AS Ingolstadt-North (61) – AS Ingolstadt-South (62) *92400* / 11180 (12,1%) (2x3) - 2013: *99360* (max: Wednesday 2nd October*, 140048)
AS Ingolstadt-South (62) – AS Manching (63) *88000* / 11088 (12,6%) (2x3) - 2013: *92358* (max: Friday 12th July, 124442)
AS Manching (63) – AS Langenbruck (64) *85500* / 10346 (12,1%) (2x3)
AS Langenbruck (64) – AD Holledau (A 93) *75300* / 10241 (13,6%) (2x3) - 2013: *79838* (max. Friday 26th July, 109453)
AD Holledau (A 93) – TR In der Holledau *94100* / 10445 (11,1%) (2x3, shoulder running planned) - 2013: *97738* (max: Friday 19th July, 130853)
TR In der Holledau – AS Pfaffenhofen (66) *97400* / 10032 (10,3%) (2x3, shoulder running planned)
AS Pfaffenhofen (66) – AS Allershausen (67) *99500* / 11045 (11,1%) (2x3, shoulder running planned) - 2013: *103249* (max: Friday 19th July, 135318)
AS Allershausen (67) – AK Neufahrn (A 92) *104300* / 11473 (11%) (2x3, shoulder running) - 2013: *108087* (max: Wednesday 2nd October*, 141104)
AK Neufahrn (A 92) – AS Eching (69) *119300* / 11334 (9,5%) (2x4) - 2013: *121634* (max: Wednesday 2nd October*, 154148)
AS Eching (69) – AS Garching-North (70) *131800* / 12521 (9,5%) (2x4) - 2013: *135242* (max: Wednesday 2nd October*, 174386)
AS Garching-North (70) – AS Garching-South (71) *136800* / 12449 (9,1%) (2x4) - 2013: *140961* (max: Friday 12th July, 181508)
AS Garching-South (71) – AK München-North (A 99) *146200* / 13158 (9%) (2x4) - 2013: *152619* (max: Friday 12th July, 193887)
AK München-North (A 99) – AS München-Fröttmaning-South (73) *103500* / 5589 (5,4%) (2x3) - 2013: *110735* (max: Wednesday 25th September**, 141924)
AS München-Fröttmaning-South (73) – AS München-Freimann (74) *102100* / 5513 (5,4%) (2x3) - 2013: *105819* (max: Friday 27th September, 136219)
AS München-Freimann (74) – AS München-Frankfurter Ring (75) *103000* / 4944 (4,8%) (2x3)
AS München-Frankfurter Ring (75) – AS München-Schwabing (76) *77300* / 5025 (6,5%) (2x2) - 2013: *84779* (max: Friday 27th September, 108221)

*3rd October = German Unity Day = holiday
**25th Septeber 2013 = day of football match Bayern Munich - Hannover 96 (source)!? 4:1


----------



## Road_UK

Don't you have to have a registered company in your name in order to claim vat rebates on fuel?


----------



## MichiH

*AD Havelland (A10/A24)*



MichiH said:


> 18th November 2014: *A24 2x3 widening West of Kremmen - AD Havelland* (3.0km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> 18th November 2014: *A10 2x3 widening AD Havelland - Klein-Ziethen* (2.4km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)


The reconstruction of the AD Havalland (A10/A24) including about 5.4km 2x3 widening of A24/A10 b/n AS _Kremmen_ and east of the AD was officially inaugurated. Construction time: 2 years. Total costs: 60 million € (18 million € are funded by the EU (ERDF)). See press release.


----------



## MichiH

*AK Schwerin (A14/A24)*





 (Berlin --> Hamburg)




 (Hamburg --> Berlin)


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> 18th November 2014: *A4 Magdala - Jena-Göschwitz* (11.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2007; 2x3; direction Dresden)
> 18th November 2014: *A24 2x3 widening West of Kremmen - AD Havelland* (3.0km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> 18th November 2014: *A10 2x3 widening AD Havelland - Klein-Ziethen* (2.4km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> 
> November 2014: *A8 Bergen viaduct* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since May 2010; 2x3 but remains 2x2 until the next section will be widened)
> November 2014: *B14 2x2 widening Danube bridge Tuttlingen* (0.6km; OSM; u/c since August 2013)
> November 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> Late November 2014: *A26 Horneburg - Jork* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since Summer 2006; 1x2 direction _Stade_ only)
> Late November 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Klosterweg viaduct – West of Pforzheim-West* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> 
> Early 5th December 2014: *B2 Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – South of Untersteinbach* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since October 2012; 2x2)
> Early December 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen (B183)* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> 
> Fall 2014: *A524 Duisburg-Huckingen – West of AK Duisburg-South (A59)* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since February 2010)
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)


A4 source (opened on Tuesday, 9:30 AM), A10/A24 source, B2 source (e-mail from StBaN).


----------



## MichiH

*Truck toll*

The contract with Toll Collect was extended by 3 years until 31th August 2018. Additional 1,100km B roads will be tolled from 1st July 2015. Vehicles with a weight b/n 7.5 and 12.0 tons will be tolled from 1st October 2015. See press release.


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*



MichiH said:


> - *A14 2x2 Grabow - Groß Warnow* (9.8km; OSM; 88 million €; plan approval order: December 2012; groundbreaking: 2015; source)


Preliminary works are already ongoing (clearing). Tendering will be done in spring 2015. Earthworks will start in June 2015. Estimated completion: Late 2017. Source.

It's the 2nd and final A14 section in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (Mecklenburg-West Pomerania). The next section to the north and the next section to the south (in Brandenburg) will be completed in late 2015. Total length of the three sections: 37,5km.


----------



## MichiH

*Section control*

The first German section control will be installed on the 4-laned B6 south of _Hannover_ between _Laatzen_ and _Gleidingen_ (OSM; 3km) in 2015. There's an accident black spot. The project period is 18 months.

Source


----------



## MichiH

*A26 Stade - Hamburg*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The A26 section b/n _Horneburg_ and _Jork_ will be opened in late November 2014 (direction _Stade_ only; trucks are not allowed). The road is almost completed, only some guard rail and signposting is missing.
> 
> btw: It's defined by the plan apporval order of section 2 (_Horneburg_-_Jork_-_Buxtehude_) that an Autobahn end at _Jork_ is not allowed to avoid stressing the residents. The _Jork_ bypass will be opened in May 2015. *The authority will monitor the traffic changes. Maybe the Hamburg direction b/n Jork and Horneburg will be opened in 2015.*
> 
> 
> 
> The Lower Saxonian Minister of Transport has the aim to open the 2nd carriageway in Summer 2015. Section 4 (up to the A7 in _Hamburg_) is announced to be opened in 2024 (or 2025?). Source (please ignore the damn incorrect diagram).
Click to expand...

The new 4.6km A26 section will be opened on Thursday, Friday or Saturday. The opening will be done without any ceremony because it is too mortifying for the officials. It will only be opened for cars driving towards _Stade_. Source.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> November 2014: *B14 2x2 widening Danube bridge Tuttlingen* (0.6km; OSM; u/c since August 2013)
> 
> 26th November 2014: *A8 Bergen viaduct* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since May 2010; 2x3 but remains 2x2 until the next section will be widened)
> Late 27th - 29th November 2014: *A26 Horneburg - Jork* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since Summer 2006; 1x2 direction _Stade_ only)
> Late November 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Klosterweg viaduct – West of Pforzheim-West* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> November 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> 
> 5th December 2014: *B2 Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – South of Untersteinbach* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since October 2012; 2x2)
> Early December 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> >= 15th December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen (B183)* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> 
> Fall 2014: *A524 Duisburg-Huckingen – West of AK Duisburg-South (A59)* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since February 2010)
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)


A8 source, A26 source, B6n source (Completed by 15th December but there is not yet an official opening date) and B14 source (18th November: Opened a few days ago).


----------



## MichiH

*B31 Friedrichshafen bypass*



MichiH said:


> The 4th project is the B31 _Friedrichshafen_ bypass (groundbreaking ceremony on 24th November 2014; 7.1km; 4-laned; 119.5 million €; completion: 2020; source)


The groundbreaking ceremony of the *4-laned B31 between Immenstaad and Friedrichshafen/Waggershausen* happened today (OSM). Total costs: about 110 million €. Estimated completion: Late 2020. A 700m noise protection tunnel, a bat flyover and 12 bridges are built. See press release (2). The road will feature 2x2 lanes with hard shoulders. The route was finally chosen in 1982, the plan approval order was passed in 1987. It was challenged and repealed in 1990. The first section (northern _Friedrichshafen_ bypass) was built from 1994 to 2001. The new plan approval order was passed in June 2008. The appeals were rejected in 2009 and 2010. Project page.










btw: I've edited the yesterdays post (A8 _Bergen_ viaduct)


----------



## Patrick

MichiH said:


> November 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)


I don't think they will finish it next week from what I saw today  But I have no idea what their actual schedule says.

Here are some low quality cheap smartphone photos.
This is the construction site of the Boden/Niederahr exit and the current end of the new B255 bypassing Boden (driving towards Niederahr).




























EDIT: or maybe I am just plain dumb and they will or already have opened a section between Oberahr and Niederahr, which I have not checked...


----------



## MichiH

Patrick said:


> I don't think they will finish it next week from what I saw today  But I have no idea what their actual schedule says.
> Here are some low quality cheap smartphone photos.
> This is the construction site of the Boden/Niederahr exit and the current end of the new B255 bypassing Boden (driving towards Niederahr).


This section is announced to be opened Mid 2016, see latest news article (10th October).



Patrick said:


> EDIT: or maybe I am just plain dumb and they will or already have opened a section between Oberahr and Niederahr, which I have not checked...


I don't think it's already opened. I've checked the local media yesterday.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> 26th November 2014: *A8 Bergen viaduct* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since May 2010; 2x3 but remains 2x2 until the next section will be widened)
> 27th - 29th 28th November 2014: *A26 Horneburg - Jork* (4.6km; OSM; u/c since Summer 2006; 1x2 direction _Stade_ only; cars only)
> 
> Late November 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Klosterweg viaduct – West of Pforzheim-West* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> November 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> 
> 5th December 2014: *B2 Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – South of Untersteinbach* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since October 2012; 2x2)
> Early December 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> >= 15th December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen (B183)* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> 15th December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> 
> Fall 2014: *A524 Duisburg-Huckingen – West of AK Duisburg-South (A59)* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since February 2010)
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)


A8 source, A26 source, B50 source.


----------



## MichiH

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*






A great aerial video of the u/c A44 (70km) with comments (I think it's understandable for Non-German speakers too. The most used word is 'tunnel' ).


----------



## Pepov

MichiH said:


> A great aerial video of the u/c A44 (70km) with comments (I think it's understandable for Non-German speakers too. The most used word is 'tunnel' ).


When a 44 Kassel - Eisenach will be finished, which route will be better (short/fast)? Dresden - Kassel via 14/38 or Dresden Kassel via 4/44?


----------



## MichiH

Pepov said:


> When a 44 Kassel - Eisenach will be finished, which route will be better (short/fast)? Dresden - Kassel via 14/38 or Dresden Kassel via 4/44?


According to Google Maps, the A14/A38/A7 route has a length of 353km. The current A4/B400/B27/B7 route has a length of 355km. The future A4/A44 route should have almost the same length but the entire A4 has 2x3 lanes.

I think the transit traffic will get the chance to choose the route according to the traffic conditions.


----------



## Pepov

MichiH said:


> According to Google Maps, the A14/A38/A7 route has a length of 353km. The current A4/B400/B27/B7 route has a length of 355km. The future A4/A44 route should have almost the same length but the entire A4 has 2x3 lanes.
> 
> I think the transit traffic will get the chance to choose the route according to the traffic conditions.


Thank you for professional answer (as always) . IMHO the problem is that if you are near Dresden you have no chance to hear _verkehrsservice_ from Hessen. And a7 Dr. Drammetal - Kassel is really... i hate to drive there, always problems. I hope that new a44 will be better, as it will be new.
New a44 will be 2x2 all the way?


----------



## MichiH

Pepov said:


> Thank you for professional answer (as always) . IMHO the problem is that if you are near Dresden you have no chance to hear _verkehrsservice_ from Hessen. And a7 Dr. Drammetal - Kassel is really... i hate to drive there, always problems.


 I don't drive east-west there but driving the A7 I usually listen to MDR jump radio. There is only one problem: No radio traffic service about A7. I think, congestion on A7 is currently problematic north of A38 only (2x3 widening ongoing). I can't remember bad experience south of A38. But I don't drive there often. I don't drive there Monday morning or Friday afternoon.



Pepov said:


> I hope that new a44 will be better, as it will be new. New a44 will be 2x2 all the way?


A44 will feature 2x2 lanes all the way. There will be many tunnels with 80km/h speed limit. There is also a very sharp curve. The A44 will relieve A7/A4 south of _Kassel_. But the 2x3 A4 should allow fast driving with low congestion risk.

The A44 progress is not like in Poland. It's damn slow. Works on the next 7.2km section will probably begin in 2015. Two sections will be completed in 2016 (10.4km), I hope this will set free money for the last three eastern sections (21.6km). I hope works begin in 2018 but there is another competing Autobahn project in northern Hesse, A49 south of _Kassel_. Funding is still done state specific, not demand specific (Hesse is in the middle of Germany and should get more money for its infrastructure projects).

I made a prediction on the German forum 6 weeks ago: The A44 should be completed by 2022-25 except the western-most section _Kassel_-_Helsa_ but I guess the planning procedure (including court decisions) of this section should be completed by 2022-25 too. There are a lot of discussions, the plan approval procedure - started in 2006 - should be restarted "soon". The A7 is planned to be widened to 2x4 lanes b/n _Kassel_-East and _Kassel_-South (6.2km, approved since March 2010). Noise barriers are currently built there. I think, the completion of the A44 is more important than this A7 upgrade.

btw: Hesse has proposed a 2x4 upgrade of the entire A7 b/n the Lower Saxony/Hesse border south of the A38 and Kassel-East for the BVWP 2015 (masterplan 2015). In addition a 2x5 upgrade b/n _Kassel_-East and _Kassel_-South (where a 2x4 upgrade is approved, see above ). It's currently checked by the Federal Ministry of Transport.


----------



## Pepov

MichiH said:


> The A44 progress is not like in Poland.





MichiH said:


> btw: Hesse has proposed a 2x4 upgrade of the entire A7 b/n the Lower Saxony/Hesse border south of the A38 and Kassel-East for the BVWP 2015 (masterplan 2015). In addition a 2x5 upgrade b/n _Kassel_-East and _Kassel_-South (where a 2x4 upgrade is approved, see above ). It's currently checked by the Federal Ministry of Transport.


2x5 sounds impressive, but i guess it might be around 2030? 40?

I promise this is is my last question for today :nuts: -
I found this map:
http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/AutobahnkarteWeitererBedarf.pdf
And i spotted 3 very interesting places:
1. A 4 to Frankenberg (Eder)
2. A 480 North of Giessen
3. A 143 east of Halle
Are these three possible at all? For me it looks like science - fiction, but very useful (at least for me nr 1 and 2)


----------



## MichiH

Pepov said:


> 2x5 sounds impressive, but i guess it might be around 2030? 40?


Never... Hesse has proposed an upgrade of almost all major routes (A3, A5, A7, A45)....



Pepov said:


> I found this map:
> http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/AutobahnkarteWeitererBedarf.pdf


It shows the possible Autobahn network after completion of the entire BVWP 2003 (masterplan 2003). Red = 2x2, violet = 2x3, purple = 2x4. Yellow Autobahns are not shown.



Pepov said:


> And i spotted 3 very interesting places:
> 1. A 4 to Frankenberg (Eder)
> 2. A 480 North of Giessen


Both projects are further demand of the current masterplan but Hesse has not proposed them for the BVWP 2015. It's most likely that they will not be part of the future BVWP 2015. The western part of the A4 was already removed from the last masterplan.



Pepov said:


> 3. A 143 east of Halle
> Are these three possible at all? For me it looks like science - fiction, but very useful (at least for me nr 1 and 2)


A143 is west of Halle . The western _Halle_ bypass should be built "soon". It's urgent demand of the BVWP 2003. The plan approval order was passed in May 2005 but it was challenged and it's without legal capacity (court has repealed it). A new plan approval procedure began in September 2009, the order was announced to be passed in 2014 but.... Almost all predictions like this are delayed... I guess groundbreaking could happen this decade - best case.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming updates*



> Late November 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Klosterweg viaduct – West of Pforzheim-West* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> 
> 5th December 2014: *B2 Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – South of Untersteinbach* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since October 2012; 2x2)
> Early December 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> 15th December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> >= 15th December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen (B183)* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> November December 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> 
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)
> 
> Fall 2014: *A524 Duisburg-Huckingen – West of AK Duisburg-South (A59)* (1.5km; OSM; u/c since February 2010)


A8 source (The 2nd pic shows the completed sub-section), A524 source (2) (I read many news article in the past years, I hate this projects... The A524 is completed from east of the Anger brook bridge to the previous A524 end at the "Zur Kaffeehött" bridge since early July 2014; 1.9km; the Anger brook bridge, the city railway bridge and the bridge at the Huckingen interchange will be built in 2015, the A524 extension length is 800m), B255 source (The road is completed since spring 2014 but a hunter intervened that a wild game fence is needed; the fence is completed now but there is a little gap in the fence... The authority wants to open the section within the next weeks and will discuss the issue with the hunter soon... I love this project...)

btw: The A44 AS Heiligenhaus – AS Heiligenhaus-Hetterscheidt is delayed and will be opened in 2017 (source).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Are they planning a western bypass of Pforzheim? This interchange with B10 (just slightly south of A8) was constructed recently and hints at an extension further south.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Chris,did you noticed the shape of intersection ?


----------



## MichiH

*B463 western Pforzheim bypass*



ChrisZwolle said:


> Are they planning a western bypass of Pforzheim? This interchange with B10 (just slightly south of A8) was constructed recently and hints at an extension further south.


Yes. The project is called "*B463 Westtangente Pforzheim*". The plan approval order of the first 2.6km section (OSM; 71 million €) was passed in February 1999. It was modified in May 2003 and the final approval was passed in 2nd quarter of 2013. The B10/B463 intersection was built from November 2009 to spring 2012. The bypass project got a very high priority by the Baden-Württemberg government in 2012 (no. 2 after _Friedrichshafen_ bypass) but the Federal Ministry ignores the list and funds the projects in a different order.

The 2nd 2.5km section has further demand only (OSM). Each section contains a tunnel.


----------



## Kanadzie

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Chris,did you noticed the shape of intersection ?


LOL now we know you are 16 :lol:


----------



## Attus

Kanadzie said:


> LOL now we know you are 16 :lol:


And actually seems to be 13...


----------



## mcarling

Kanadzie said:


> LOL now we know you are 16 :lol:


12 seems more likely. By about 14, I no longer would have been amused.


----------



## Wilhem275

ROTFL


----------



## Road_UK

mcarling said:


> 12 seems more likely. By about 14, I no longer would have been amused.


I am. But then again people tell me all the time that I need to grow up. Others (girls) ask me never ever to grow up.


----------



## Pansori

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Chris,did you noticed the shape of intersection ?


Nail scissors?


----------



## devo

Autoputevi kao hobi said:


> Chris,did you noticed the shape of intersection ?


Supergeil, vielleicht? 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxVcgDMBU94


----------



## MichiH

https://plus.google.com/+GoogleDeutschland/posts/3q4SJdgo2Wk

Google started recording street view pics today. They will be used for internal application only.


----------



## andy5

MichiH said:


> https://plus.google.com/+GoogleDeutschland/posts/3q4SJdgo2Wk
> 
> Google started recording street view pics today. They will be used for internal application only.


But surely they have been doing this in the past?

Street View used to cover plenty of areas and then the service was removed.


----------



## Wilhem275

I was missing a good old flame war about "the Germans and their collective allucination about privacy" 

:troll:


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Hello guys, let me post this pic, credits to Hotu Matua:*


Autopista alemana hermosa by Hotu Matua, on Flickr


----------



## Nikkodemo

*Another pic of Hotu Matua*


Intersección alemana by Hotu Matua, on Flickr


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

Wilhem275 said:


> I was missing a good old flame war about "the Germans and their collective allucination about privacy"
> 
> :troll:


I really don't understand their concerns.


----------



## cinxxx

^^You can't, they're Germans.
They are still traumatized from the Nazi times when a totalitarian regime could access private data of every German citizen and use them for oppression.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't think so. Maybe Stasi.


----------



## cinxxx

^^Stasi was in the East.
The people most paranoid, I talked to, are all from the West, they told me what I wrote above...


----------



## MichiH

^^ Ok. I've never heard but Upper Bavaria is very special...


----------



## Road_UK

cinxxx said:


> ^^Stasi was in the East.
> The people most paranoid, I talked to, are all from the West, they told me what I wrote above...


So you talk to a lot of people who are over 80 years old and they are the ones who protest in masses against Streetview?


----------



## Heico-M

Germans can be ridiculous.

The German government forced Google to agree that citizens can have their houses blurred out. Hundreds of thousands of people used that option. 

The main concern was that burglars may use streetview to spy out the house and the surroundings. 

Others complained that they could no longer lay in the garden unwatched - they seemed to believe that Google are transmitting live pictures :lol:

But then newspaper articles appeared of people who had their houses blurred out. These articles were also published online - with the respective house in the background and the full names of the owners :banana:

My last information was that Google had stopped to extend the existing service because it was too much hassle. 

But honestly - Germans and their data protection hysteria. There are plans to take photos of number plates to control the road toll - what a shitstorm. 

Some day, it will be forbidden to look at number plates - if you see the same plate twice, you have created a movement profile.

Some other day, they'll advise you not to leave your house any more - your neighbour might see you!

Honestly hno:


----------



## keokiracer

Heico-M said:


> Some day, it will be forbidden to look at number plates - if you see the same plate twice, you have created a movement profile.


Using a dashcam can now cost you up to 300.000 euros (!) if you hand over footage to your insurance company or police in case on an incident/accident. Also posting your footage online is illegal as long as number plates are visible.

It's ridiculous hno:hno:


----------



## cinxxx

Road_UK said:


> So you talk to a lot of people who are over 80 years old and they are the ones who protest in masses against Streetview?


I talk to work colleagues, which are around my age, so around 30, the most paranoid ones, are from the former West Germany, and the burglar fear, Heico mentioned, is widely spread. The other concern, regarding former Nazi regime is also very true in Germany, from old to young people.

I don't understand why Google hasn't covered extra-urban roads at least...


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

keokiracer said:


> Using a dashcam can now cost you up to 300.000 euros (!) if you hand over footage to your insurance company or police in case on an incident/accident. Also posting your footage online is illegal as long as number plates are visible.
> 
> It's ridiculous hno:hno:


Does Austria has the same regulations?


----------



## Road_UK

I think so.


----------



## Kanadzie

Heico-M said:


> Germans can be ridiculous.
> Honestly hno:


It is ridiculous but at least they are paying attention to it. I don't mind Streetview but road tolls with number plate scanning, yikes hno: (or indeed, speed cameras...)


----------



## g.spinoza

Does anybody know anything about the Kiesselbachtunnel-Heckenstallertunnel complex on Munich ring (at the end of A 95)? A friend of mine lives nearby and told me it seems to be completed for a while now but it's still closed...


----------



## TrojaA

A segment of the A21 was opened 2 days ago. The section was build over 3 years with costs of 20 million euro and has a length of only 2.5km.
The ground was more or less too swampy to build a motorway on it, so they had to replace 150,000m³. This took time and cost a lot of money. A wildlife crossing took another 3.7 million Euro. In 2017 the second part of this section should be done.

(German newspaper article: http://www.kn-online.de/Schleswig-Holstein/Aus-dem-Land/Stolpe-Weiterer-Abschnitt-auf-der-A21-fertig)

I assume it's one of the lowest Autobahn projects in Germany.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Welcome!
What do you mean by "lowest Autobahn projects"?


----------



## TrojaA

Thank you. Oh lowest.. I meant slowest, but I didn't press the key strong enough. My fault.


----------



## Road_UK

Welcome, TrojA. I am Road_UK


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Does anybody know anything about the Kiesselbachtunnel-Heckenstallertunnel complex on Munich ring (at the end of A 95)? A friend of mine lives nearby and told me it seems to be completed for a while now but it's still closed...


http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/baureferat/projekte/mittlerer-ring-suedwest.html



> Die Verkehrsfreigabe ist in der zweiten Jahreshälfte 2015 geplant. Im Anschluss erfolgt bis Ende 2017 die Wiederherstellung der Oberfläche und die Anlage des Heckenstallerparks. Dies soll bis Ende 2017 abgeschlossen werden.


The tunnels will be opened for traffic in the 2nd half-year 2015 (I think deadline was November 2015). Final works will be completed by late 2017.

Activities summer 2014 to fall 2015: > click <.

Pics taken by Rent-a-Drone, Peitingin August 2014 (published on muenchen.de):


----------



## MichiH

TrojaA said:


> I assume it's one of the slowest Autobahn projects in Germany.


No, it isn't. It's quite quick. The first 2.5km were built in just 30 month. 23km are still missing up to Kiel. 23 / 2.5 * 30 = 276 months = 23 years .

The works on the recently opened 4.1km A26 section began in summer 2006. In addition, only the first carriageway has been opened for cars. Trucks are not allowed to drive there.


----------



## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> Pics taken by Rent-a-Drone, Peiting...ell they want is a [B]really[/B] bad idea....


----------



## MichiH

^^ http://www.rent-a-drone.de/


----------



## TrojaA

MichiH said:


> The works on the recently opened 4.1km A26 section began in summer 2006. In addition, only the first carriageway has been opened for cars. Trucks are not allowed to drive there.


Ye that's even worse, but in general the building of new Autobahns and building/extending Bundesstraßen as dual carriageways is very slow in recent years. (Apart from some more or less quick exceptions like the widing of the A1 between Lübeck and Hamburg)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TrojaA said:


> (...) in recent years. (Apart from some more or less quick exceptions like the widening of the A1 between Lübeck and Hamburg)


That was 45 years ago...


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> http://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/baureferat/projekte/mittlerer-ring-suedwest.html
> 
> The tunnels will be opened for traffic in the 2nd half-year 2015 (I think deadline was November 2015). Final works will be completed by late 2017.


Thanks!
In the meanwhile I found the same website and, with my rusty German, translated that. I know I could go with google translate, but I want to keep at least a basic understanding of the language 

I hadn't found the pictures, though, they are very interesting... I remember the mess when I lived there three years ago...


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> That was 45 years ago...


I guess TrojaA has mistaken Hamburg-Lübeck and Hamburg-Bremen . The latter was upgraded 2008-2012 (~70km).


----------



## TrojaA

MichiH said:


> I guess TrojaA has mistaken Hamburg-Lübeck and Hamburg-Bremen . The latter was upgraded 2008-2012 (~70km).


Yep I meant Bremen, dunno why I wrote Lübeck. Sometimes my brain and hands don't work together very well


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

*Autobahn A45: AK Gambacher Kreuz - AS Herborn-Süd*


----------



## [atomic]

ChrisZwolle said:


> *5 December 2014*
> 
> A 3.6 kilometer stretch of four-lane motorway-like road opened to traffic in Bavaria, just south of Roth. It bypasses the village of Untersteinbach an der Haide. Construction cost was € 18 million.
> 
> http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pressemitteilungen/2014/137-baer-b2-untersteinbach-dettenheim.html


are there any more Plans to upgrade the B2 between Roth and Donauwörth? 2x2, Bypasses grade seperated or whatever


----------



## MichiH

*B2 Roth-Donauwörth*



[atomic] said:


> are there any more Plans to upgrade the B2 between Roth and Donauwörth? 2x2, Bypasses grade seperated or whatever


Yes. The plan approval procudure of the next 4.1km section around _Wernsbach_ began in 2010 (OSM; south of _Untersteinbach_). The section will also feature 2x2 lanes. There are already 3 lanes up to _Ellingen_ where a short 2x2 section follows up to _Weißenburg_ (OSM). The Weißenburg bypass is planned to be widened to 2+1 too. The groundbreaking ceremony of the _Dettenheim_ bypass was yesterday.The 3.4km bypass and a 1.3km 2+1-section south of _Dettenheim_ will be completed in July 2017 (OSM). A _Dietfurt_ bypass is also planned (OSM; early planning stage). It's the last remaining cross-town link between _Nuremberg_ and _Augsburg_ (strictly speaking b/n A6 south of _Nuremberg_ and _Hohenfurch_ north of _Schongau_, ~180km). I read in April that the building authority also wants to upgrade the reamining route up to_ Donauwörth_ which is only partial 2+1 yet. Afterwards, the entire 180km would feature minimum 3 lanes. It's the route of the formerly planned A77 _Nuremberg_-_Donauwörth _and A91 (_Feuchtwangen_-)_Donauwörth_-_Augsburg_-_Schongau_(-_Füssen_).

AADT 2010 b/n _Roth _and _Donauwörth_:

AS Roth (A6) – Penzendorf (L2239) *20300* / 2964 (14,6%) - 2x2
Penzendorf (L2239) – Rednitzhembach (RH1) *26100* / 2741 (10,5%) - 2x2
Rednitzhembach (RH1) – Roth (L2237) *25500* / 2933 (11,5%) - 2x2 
Roth (L2237) – Roth (L2220) *24400* / 2562 (10,5%)- 2x2 
Roth (L2220) – Belmbrach (GVS) *19800* / 2455 (12,4%)- 2x2 
Belmbrach (GVS) – Roth-Kiliansdorf (L2409) *17400* / 2245 (12,9%) - 2x2
Roth-Kiliansdorf (L2409) – Georgensgmünd (L2223) *14900* / 2161 (14,5%) - 2x2 _Untersteinbach_ bypass completed; 2x2 _Wernsbach_ bypass planned
Georgensgmünd (L2223) – Röttenbach (GVS) *14300* / 2031 (14,2%) - 2+1
Röttenbach (GVS) – Röttenbach (L2923) *12200* / 1976 (16,2%) - 2+1 
Röttenbach (L2923) – Pleinfeld *14000* / 2198 (15,7%) - 2+1 
Pleinfeld – Ellingen-Nord *16400* / 2230 (13,6%) - 2+1 
Ellingen-Nord – Ellingen/Weißenburg-Nord *18200* / 2603 (14,3%) - 2x2 w/o median
Ellingen/Weißenburg-Nord – Weißenburg (B13) *14400* / 2434 (16,9%) - 2+1 planned
Weißenburg (B13) – Weißenburg *14700* / 2132 (14,5%) - 2+1 planned
Weißenburg – Treuchtlingen (L2216) *15400* / 2064 (13,4%) - 2+1 u/c
Treuchtlingen (L2216) – Treuchtlingen (L2230) *11400* / 2086 (18,3%) - _Dietfurt_ bypass planned
Treuchtlingen (L2230) – Monheim (L2214) *8300* / 1693 (20,4%) - partial 2+1; additional 2+1 sections proposed
Monheim (L2214) – S Kaisheim (DON27) *10500* / 1890 (18%) - partial 2+1; additional 2+1 sections proposed
S Kaisheim (DON27) – Donauwörth Ende B2 *17100* / 2052 (12%) - 2+1 upgrade proposed


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> 5th December 2014: *B2 Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – South of Untersteinbach* (3.3km; OSM; u/c since October 2012; 2x2)
> 
> Early December 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> 15th December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> >= 15th 16th December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen-East* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> 23rd December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> Late Mid December 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> Mid December 2014: *B174 2x2 widening Chemnitz-Südring – Chemnitz outskirt* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> December 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> 
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)


A4 source (reported by a guy who's involved in works, B2 source, B6n source, B174 source, B207 source


----------



## MichiH

*A4 widening b/n Aachen and Cologne*

^^ Pics of the A4 widening near _Düren_, taken by _*Raffael*_ (posted on http://autobahn-online.de/phorum). A4 was relocated b/n _Düren_ and _Kerpen_. The new route features 2x3 lanes. Two sections (each 2.2km) at the crossovers at the beginning and at the end of the relocation are still u/c. The section near _Düren_ will be completed in Mid December 2014, the section near _Kerpen _will be completed by late 2015.

Mid October 2014, near _Düren_ (OSM), view towards _Cologne_:

















Mid October 2014, view towards _Aachen_:

















Late October 2014, view towards _Aachen_:

























Late October 2014, east K2 bridge, view towards _Aachen_:


































Reason of the relocation:









Mid November 2014, near _Düren_, view from rural road bridge east of railroad bridge:









Late November 2014, near _Kerpen_ (OSM), east of i/c _Elsdorf_:


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> Early 8th December 2014: *B286 2+1 widening Alitzheim - Gerolzhofen-North* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2013)
> Mid 12th December 2014: *B174 2x2 widening Chemnitz-Südring – Chemnitz outskirt* (1.3km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> 15th December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> 16th December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen-East* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> 23rd December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> Mid December 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> December 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> 
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)


A8 source (traffic will use 2x2 lanes from tomorrow but 3rd lanes will be opened with final subsection in late 2015), B174 source, B286 source


----------



## MichiH

*B286 Schweinfurt-Wiesentheid*

^^ Video of new 2+1 section b/n _Alitzheim _and _Gerolzhofen _(B286). Speed limit is reduced to 100km/h now (from 120km/h):


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> 12th December 2014: *B174 2x2 widening Chemnitz-Südring – Chemnitz outskirt* (1.3 0.9km; OSM; u/c since September 2012)
> 
> 15th December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> 16th December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen-East* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> 19th December 2014: *B75 Dibbersen bypass* (2.7km; OSM; u/c since July 2012; parial 2x2)
> 23rd December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> Mid December 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> December 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> 
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)
> Late 2014: *A8 2x3 widening Temmenhausen - west of Ulm-West* (7.8km; OSM; u/c since May 2012)


A8 (Couldn't find an accurate link but it will not be opened 2x3 in 2014), B75 source (2) (Announced to be completed by May 2015, lately January 2015, now December 2014) B174 source (2) (It's only 0.9km and it's not grade-separated!)


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming openings*



> 15th December 2014: *B50 AK Wittlich – Platten* (5.4km; OSM; u/c since May 2003; 2x2)
> 16th December 2014: *B6n West of Kleinpaschleben - Köthen-East* (13.5km; OSM; u/c since March 2011; 2+1)
> 19th December 2014: *B75 Dibbersen bypass* (2.7km; OSM; u/c since July 2012; parial 2x2)
> 
> 23rd December 2014: *B207 Lübeck-South (A20) - South of Pogeez* (5.3km; OSM; u/c since 2011)
> Mid December 2014: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; OSM; u/c since ?)
> December 2014: *B255 Niederahr - Oberahr* (2.3km; OSM; u/c since July 2007)
> 
> 2014: *B48 Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass*, 2nd section (0.7km; OSM; u/c since September 2009)


B6n source (2) (costs: 60 million €; entire B6n length: 125km, 105km completed, total costs: 710 million €), B50 source (2; pics) (92 million €) and B75 source (costs: 17 million €)


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Media announced that the funding of some projects is backed:
> 
> - *A3 2x3 (4+3) widening near Wertheim* (8.5km; OSM; 77 million €; plan approval order: February 2007; groundbreaking: March 2015; source)
> - *A14 2x2 Grabow - Groß Warnow* (9.8km; OSM; 88 million €; plan approval order: December 2012; groundbreaking: 2015; source)
> - *B2 2x2 Oberau bypass* (4.2km; OSM; 165 million €; plan approval order: February 2010; groundbreaking: Spring 2015; source)
> - *B3 2x2/2+1 Hemmingen bypass* (7.5km; OSM; 50 million €; plan approval order: September 2004; groundbreaking: 2015?; source)
> - *B29 2x2 Mögglingen bypass* (6.9km; OSM; 67 million €; plan approval order: September 1999; groundbreaking: Late 2014; source)
> - *B31 2x2 Immenstaad – Friedrichshafen* (7.1km; OSM; 97 million €; plan approval order: June 2008; groundbreaking: Early 2015; source)
> - *B300 2x2 widening Dasing - Aichach* (4-5km; OSM; 22 million €; plan approval order: April 2009; groundbreaking: Fall 2014; source)
> 
> All announced projects are motorway, motorway-like or partial motorway-like (B3 only).
> 
> - *B213/B403 Nordhorn bypass* (8.5km; OSM; 32 million €; plan approval order: May 2011; groundbreaking: "soon"; source)





MichiH said:


> ^^ More projects seem to be backed:
> 
> - *A3 2x4 widening AS Leverkusen - AS Köln-Mülheim* (~4.5km; OSM; ? million €; plan approval order: January 2012; groundbreaking: Early 2015; source)
> - *A43 2x3 widening AS Recklinghausen/Herten – AK Herne* (~7km; OSM; 166 million €; plan approval order: April 2013; groundbreaking: Late 2014; source; expected court hearing: 2015)
> - *A72 2x2 AS Rötha – AK Leipzig* (7.2km; OSM; 100 million €; plan approval order: December 2013; groundbreaking: 2016(preliminary works will begin earlier); source)
> - *B51/B481 2x2/2+1 Münster bypass [L587/K7 - L793]* (6.3km; OSM; 42 million €; plan approval order: September 2011; groundbreaking: 2015; source; expected court hearing: Late 2014)
> - *B271 Kirchheim bypass* (3.4km; OSM; 20 million €; plan approval order: February 2009; groundbreaking: 2015; source)
> 
> In addition, the final funding of two already u/c projects seems be backed now:
> 
> - *A26 2x2 Buxtehude - Neu Wulmstorf* (4.1km; OSM; 99 million €; plan approval order: June 2012; groundbreaking: September 2013; source)
> - *B15n 2x2 Ergoldsbach - Essenbach* (9.0km; OSM; 115 million €; plan approval order: December 2011; groundbreaking: August 2013; source)





MichiH said:


> There's a list of all Bavarian projects (source). Additional projects:
> 
> - *A3 2x3 widening Marktheidenfeld - Wertheim* (~8km [16km in total]; OSM; ~60 million €; plan approval order: October 2008; groundbreaking: 2015?)
> - *A6 2x3 widening AK Nuremberg-South - AK Nuremberg-East* (3.7km; OSM; ~35 million €; plan approval order: September 2009; groundbreaking: 2015?; completion: Late 2016)
> - *B2 Dettenheim bypass plus 2+1 widening* (4.7km; OSM; 12 million €; plan approval order: May 2012; groundbreaking: Fall 2014)
> - *B85 Neubäu bypass* (preliminary works only; OSM)





MichiH said:


> - *A8 2x2 widening Merzig-Wellingen - Merzig-Schwellingen* (3.5km; OSM; 38 million €; plan approval order: Early 2014?; groundbreaking: Fall 2014; source)
> - *A44 2x2 Waldkappel - Hoheneiche* (7.2km; OSM; 224 million €; plan approval order: October 2011; groundbreaking: Spring 2015; source)
> - *B62 Leimbach bypass* (4.5km; OSM; 16 million €; plan approval order: December 2011; groundbreaking: Frühjahr 2015; source)
> - B90 *Traßdorf - Nahwinden* (13.8km; OSM; 46 million €; plan approval order: February 2010; groundbreaking: August 2013; source)
> 
> I hate this damn "groundbreaking policy". I hate that the Federal Government does not provide a list with all projects. The news are published by members of the Bundestag or by state's Ministry of Transport. I guess I have to add the remaining 90-100 approved projects (building law) within the next days........


Finally, there's a list: http://dip.bundestag.de/btd/18/035/1803528.pdf (page 8)

red = already u/c

BW B29 Mögglingen bypass (2x2); 67 million € are funded
BW B31 Immenstaad - Friedrichshafen/Waggershausen (2x2); 101 million € are funded
BW B464 Holzgerlingen bypass (2x2 widening); 10 million € are funded
BW A3 LGr BY/BW - LGr BW/BY (2x3 widening); 54 million € are funded
BY A3 AS Wertheim - AS Marktheidenfeld (2x3 widening); 62 million € are funded
BY A6 AK Nürnberg-Süd - AK Nürnberg-Ost (2x3 widening); 62 million € are funded
BY B2n Oberau bypass (2x2); 165 million € are funded
BY B2 Dettenheim bypass (2+1); 10 million € are funded
BY B15n Essenbach - Ergoldsbach (2x2; final funding); 115 million € are funded
BY B85 OU Neubäu, preliminary works only (2+1); 1 million € are funded
BY B300 AS Dasing (A8) - Aichach (2x2 widening); 18 million € are funded
BB B101 Thyrow bypass (2x2); 33 million € are funded
HE A44 AS Waldkappel - AS Ringgau (2x2); 260 million € are funded
MV A14 LGr BB/MV - AS Ludwigslust-Süd (2x2); 97 million € are funded
NI A26 AS Buxtehude – B3n (2x2; final funding); 105 million € are funded
NI B3 Hemmingen bypass (parital 2x2); 50 million € are funded
NI B213/B403 Nordhorn bypass; 30 million € are funded
NW A3 AS Köln-Mühlheim - AS Leverkusen (2x4 widening); 33 million € are funded
NW A43 AK Herne - AS Recklinghausen/Herten (2x3 widening); 201 million € are funded
NW B51 Münster bypass; 42 million € are funded
RP B271 Kirchheim bypass; 22 million € are funded
SL A8 AS Wellingen - AS Schwemlingen (2x2 widening); 44 million € are funded
SN A72 Rötha - Leipzig (A38) (2x2); 112 million € are funded
SN B169 Göltzschtal bypass (final funding); 29 million € are funded
ST B6n Köthen - A9, preliminary works only (2+1); 6 million € are funded
TH B62 Leimbach bypass; 16 million € are funded
TH B90n A71 – B87; 27 million € are funded


----------



## MichiH

*A52 Gladbeck - Essen*



MichiH said:


> Well, only the facts (w/o any NIMBY shit). The A52 project has four sections. It is planned to build a new 2x3 North-South-Autobahn in the middle of the Ruhr area.
> 
> 7.1km between *AK Essen-East (A40) and AK Essen-North (A42)* (OSM; 736.3 million €): Preliminary design phase was abrupt
> 3.6km between *AK Essen-North (A42) and Bottrop/Gladbeck city boundary* (OSM; 65.5 million €): plan approval procedure on-going (since < 2011)
> 1.9km between *Bottrop/Gladbeck city boundary and AK Essen/Gladbeck (A2)* (OSM; 72.3 million €): plan approval procedure will probably be launched soon (see today's press release)
> 2.8km between *AK Essen/Gladbeck (A2) and AS Gelsenkirchen/Buer-West *(OSM; 67.3 million €): Preliminary design phase was abrupt (citizens' decision against the projects, discussion, discussion,....)
> Please refer to the general information on Straßen.NRW


The plan approval procedure of the 3rd section (1.9km) will be launched in January 2015. The documents are already published: > click <.

An animation of the future A2/A52 interchange:
 source: Stadt Gladbeck


----------



## MichiH

*A49 Kassel - Gießen*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> VKE20 will be completed until 2016 or later. The VKE30 plan approval order was passed in January 2012. The complaint was withdrawn in June 2013. The works will begin after completion of VKE20. The plan approval order for VKE40 was passed in May 2012. It is challenged.
> 
> Total costs for the three sections (42km): 569 million €, see press release (published on 30th July 2013).
> 
> 
> 
> The last A49 plan approval order is also legal now (VKE40). The complaint was rejected by the Federal Administrative Court today, see press release.
Click to expand...




Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Two maps of the A49. :cheers:


I said VKE20 will be completed *until 2016 or later* because there is no final funding. The project page still announces that there is no final funding thus there is no opening date of the first section. There is only one tunnel u/c (and one or two bridges are u/c or completed). The tunnel has a length of 900m and costs 60 million €. The tunnel will be completed in 2015 (source). This articles quotes the road authority (Hessen Mobil) that the section is planned to be opened "at the latest in six years" (up to Schwalmstadt i/c south of the tunnel). My conclusion: *estimated opening in 2020*.


----------



## MichiH

*Car toll*

The car toll bill was passed by the Federal Government last week, see press release "It's fair, wise and right". All Autobahns and B roads will be tolled for German vehicle owners but only Autobahns will be tolled for foreign cars. It will be an electronical vignette. The earnings will be 3 billion € from Germans and 700 million € from foreigners per annum. The additional net earnings will be 500 million € per annum. It's planned to commence in 2016.


----------



## thun

Unless this madness will be stopped by the ECJ beforehand...


----------



## andy5

MichiH said:


> The car toll bill was passed by the Federal Government last week, see press release "It's fair, wise and right". All Autobahns and B roads will be tolled for German vehicle owners but only Autobahns will be tolled for foreign cars. It will be an electronical vignette. The earnings will be 3 billion € from Germans and 700 million € from foreigners per annum. The additional net earnings will be 500 million € per annum. It's planned to commence in 2016.


That suggests that 19% of car use on German roads must be foreign.

I've never noticed that.

Or it suggests they want visitors to pay more than a fair share.


----------



## mcarling

MichiH said:


> The earnings will be 3 billion € from Germans and 700 million € from foreigners per annum. The additional net earnings will be 500 million € per annum.


How can 3 billion plus 700 million sum to 500 million???


----------



## MichiH

First, I've just summarized the press release .



andy5 said:


> That suggests that 19% of car use on German roads must be foreign.
> I've never noticed that.
> Or it suggests they want visitors to pay more than a fair share.


Correct. Germans have to "pay" the annual vignette only. It's not a mileage based toll. 



mcarling said:


> How can 3 billion plus 700 million sum to 500 million???


The earnings of German vehicle owners is compensated by a lower tax on cars (KFZ-Steuer). The additional earnings are 700 million € (by foreign vehicle owners). The administration costs are 200 million €. 700 - 200 = 500 million € .

-----------------------------

"It's fair, wise and right"


----------



## MichiH

thun said:


> Unless this madness will be stopped by the ECJ beforehand...


Mr. Dobrindt claims it is EU conform.

Expertise (University Bonn): http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/An...urabgabe-gutachten.pdf?__blob=publicationFile.
Expert's opinion about Mrs. Bulc's objection: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/An...ommissionarin-bulc.pdf?__blob=publicationFile.


----------



## Road_UK

German police love pulling foreign vehicles over for no reason. Especially in Bavaria, so it'd just give them another excuse.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pulling people over to check them increases the enforcement cost considerably. It takes much more time than just check a license plate in a database while driving. The enforcement and system cost is already projected at some 25-30% of revenue.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

andy5 said:


> That suggests that 19% of car use on German roads must be foreign.
> 
> I've never noticed that.
> 
> Or it suggests they want visitors to pay more than a fair share.


That is a good observation. It is usually quoted that approximately 5% of all PKW-kilometers are from foreign cars, but they expect them to pay 19% of the gross revenue. That means foreigners pay 4 times their fair share compared to Germans.


----------



## cinxxx

A Moroccan/French colleague from work has a word describing everything in Germany:
Abzocke


----------



## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> That is a good observation. It is usually quoted that approximately 5% of all PKW-kilometers are from foreign cars, but they expect them to pay 19% of the gross revenue. That means foreigners pay 4 times their fair share compared to Germans.


it is always the same, somebody who will introduce a new system tells perfekt about benefits, in this case:
-> high income, from non germans counts with this plan
-> low operating costs
the reality will be other values, lower income, higher operating costs

principal non germans pay more, because not everybody pays a year toll, shorter ones are effective expensiver

but what is to say, some car types have a very low toll, everybody will be crazy not to buy for a full year automatically

a further point will be, i live near this border, at the moment i use sometimes the german motorway, the way is longer but easy to drive, if i have to pay then i dont use and i take the shorter distance trough small villages

and at last, they will need a lot of signs, on every exit they have to install a toll sign, somebody calculated this costs ?


----------



## Penn's Woods

cinxxx said:


> A Moroccan/French colleague from work has a word describing everything in Germany:
> Abzocke


Which means....?


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> German police love pulling foreign vehicles over for no reason. Especially in Bavaria, so it'd just give them another excuse.


It's not controlled by police, it's controlled by BAG (Federal Office for Goods Transport).



ChrisZwolle said:


> That is a good observation. It is usually quoted that approximately 5% of all PKW-kilometers are from foreign cars, but they expect them to pay 19% of the gross revenue. That means foreigners pay 4 times their fair share compared to Germans.


So what, it's the same in all countries with vignette system.


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> Which means....?


rip-off


----------



## MichiH

@Christian_AT: your totally wrong with all. You should read up on the topic.....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> So what, it's the same in all countries with vignette system.


That doesn't mean it should be considered decent practice. Especially if your minister tries to convince you how 'fair' this system would be. It's not fair at all. hno:


----------



## MichiH

^^ Agree. It's unfair like all others.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The problem is that a fair share payment of foreigners will mean the enforcement and system cost are higher than the net income. A fair share would lower the toll revenue by 75% to some € 175 million, while operating costs are in the range of € 200 million.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Vignette is never fair.


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> That doesn't mean it should be considered decent practice. Especially if your minister tries to convince you how 'fair' this system would be. It's not fair at all. hno:


Of course it is not fair. A "toll for foreigners" may in no circumstances be fair.


----------



## thun

The very idea of the suggestion was to rip-off foreigners (well, rather "take their fair share in infrastructure costs").


----------



## Road_UK

MichiH said:


> It's not controlled by police, it's controlled by BAG (Federal Office for Goods Transport).
> 
> 
> 
> .


I am talking about the police doing identity checks and vehicle searches. The BAG are interested in goods vehicles only.


----------



## Rohne

Be it toll, be it vignette, every system of of trying to get extra money from car drivers is stupid and complete bullshit. States (especially Germany) are already milking everybody for everything with unnecessary taxes - yet they are not willing to reserve at least a decent share of this robbed money for those purposes (especially defense, education & infrastructure) that legitimate raising taxes at all.


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> I am talking about the police doing identity checks and vehicle searches. The BAG are interested in goods vehicles only.


Of course, but police will not control vignette. BAG will control vignette!


----------



## Road_UK

I assume the police will do vignette checks and pass the information on to the BAG who will then fine you if needed? That's what the police do when you are doing too many hours in a goods vehicle anyway. But why would the BAG do vignette checks anyway? It has nothing to do with goods transportation...


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> But why would the BAG do vignette checks anyway? It has nothing to do with goods transportation...


See draft legislation: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/An...rabgabengesetz-neu.pdf?__blob=publicationFile.



> Page 58: Absatz 1 Satz 1 bestimmt das Bundesamt für Güterverkehr *(BAG) als für die Überwachung zuständige Behörde*. Der Kernbereich hoheitlicher Kontrollaufgaben muss aus verfassungsrechtlichen Gründen vom Staat durchgeführt werden und kann nicht auf einen privaten Betreiber übertragen werden. Das BAG bietet sich als Kontrollbehörde an, da es sich um eine flächendeckend präsente Bundesbehörde im Geschäftsbereich des Bundesverkehrsministerium handelt, die bereits langjährige Erfahrungen mit der Straßenkontrolle und der Kontrolle nach dem Bundesfernstraßenmautgesetz aufweist und über die entsprechende Grundinfrastruktur verfügt.
> Es erfolgt keine Vollkontrolle des abgabepflichtigen Verkehrs, sondern es wird nur stichprobenartig kontrolliert. Kontrolliert wird unter Berücksichtigung des Grundsatzes der Verhältnismäßigkeit entweder über den Eingang der Zahlung der Infrastrukturabgabe oder über stichprobenartige Kontrollen auf den Bundesautobahnen mit Hilfe von Kontrollbrücken, portablen Kontrollen und Kontrollfahrzeugen. Die *Kontrolle über den Eingang der Zahlung der Infrastrukturabgabe erfolgt durch das Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt* (KBA). Das BAG führt die stichprobenartigen Kontrollen auf den Bundesautobahnen durch. Da bei einer E-Vignette die Fahrtberechtigung mit dem amtlichen Kfz-Kennzeichen verknüpft ist, *kann die Kontrolle durch eine Abfrage des Kennzeichens im Zentralsystem erfolgen*. Die Kontrolldaten zu Fahrzeugen, für die die Abgabe ordnungsgemäß entrichtet wurde, werden unverzüglich gelöscht.


It's controlled by the BAG.



> Page 33f: Die beim BAG anfallenden Kosten für die Implementierung der erforderlichen Kontrolleinrichtungen belaufen sich auf insgesamt rund 34 Mio. Euro in den Jahren 2015 und 2016. Die laufenden jährlichen Kosten für den Betrieb des Kontrollsystems sowie für die in diesem Zusammenhang erforderlichen 287 Personalstellen belaufen sich insgesamt auf
> rund 32 Mio. Euro.


The control units cost 34 million €. The annual costs are 32 million € (287 new employees, salary classes "Besoldungsgruppen" are shown on page 34).

The KBA needs 84 additional employees.


----------



## andy5

MichiH said:


> andy5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But it means that if foreigners buy fuel when they visit, they are already paying a share, and roughly pro rata to their amount of road use. If I filled the car up with fuel one time in 400 or 600 km of motorway in Germany that would collect more money in duty and tax than a €10 short stay vignette.
> 
> 
> 
> I can drive more than 600km without refueling.
> 
> 
> 
> andy5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If this new scheme proposal is only intended to collect more from foreigners, and if they don't consider collection via fuel taxes to be already an adequate method to do so, why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The route through Germany is less than 100km . There's no need for foreigners to refuel in Germany.
Click to expand...

I can also do that, 800 to 1000 km even while towing, or over 1200 km without, 1500 on the longest tankful.

So I can fill up at Turnhout and reach Poland, or in Luxembourg and reach Austria or even Slovakia or Hungary.

And that's my point. I agree with you.

If someone goes on a family visit for 2 or 3 weeks, they are bound to fill up in Germany if they do a series of small day trips around the area they are staying, so they will have made a contribution in fuel taxes, but someone on just a day visit or crossing can avoid paying the higher fuel price in Germany.

So if the Germans want to collect more from visitors, and some already are paying through fuel taxes, then effectively the main new target is the shortest stay visit. And the only reason some of those aren't making a contribution is because they are careful about the price of fuel and happened to know in advance which countries are cheaper. Not everyone does this.

So there's a potential line of reasoning that the whole scheme can be philosophically reduced to solving a problem that is smaller than they think it is, and originally arises from a tariff difference.

Free use for German residents, while charging a visitor €10 for 100 or 200 km, has to be seen as unfair.


----------



## Attus

andy5 said:


> But it means that if foreigners buy fuel when they visit


IF they buy fuel. But usually they don't.


----------



## Attus

Road_UK said:


> Not to the UK they won't unless the driver of the offending vehicle has been stopped by the police. The UK doesn't share it's car registration index with other European countries.


Actually no one is interested in British cars. The primary goal is to let Austrian cars pay, secondary is Switzerland and the Czech Republic.


----------



## Road_UK

That'll please the Dutch, they're being let off with their bloody caravans :lol:


----------



## MichiH

^^^^ Exactly. And Dutchman...


----------



## Attus

andy5 said:


> Free use for German residents, while charging a visitor €10 for 100 or 200 km, has to be seen as unfair.


Yes, it IS unfair. There is hardly any one who doesn't think so. The main goal of the toll is not collecting money but to be unfair towards Austrian, Swiss and Czech drivers.


----------



## Road_UK

No, not the Dutch. You're too late my friend MichiH. I'm going over to the Dutch section now and tell them the good news...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Attus said:


> IF they buy fuel. But usually they don't.


A popular myth. Yes, in theory you can fill up in Poland and drive to the Netherlands without refueling (thus paying fuel taxes) in Germany.

However, according to ADAC, foreign cars pay 195% of their cost to infrastructure through fuel taxes in Germany.

_Tatsächlich stellen Ausländer übers Jahr nur 5,2 Prozent des Pkw-Verkehrs auf Autobahnen. Und da sie meist bei uns tanken, erbringen sie über die Mineralölsteuer bereits jetzt 195 Prozent der auf sie entfallenden Infrastrukturkosten._

A typical € 60 refuel brings more taxes in than an annual vignette for many cars...


----------



## Road_UK

I've managed Holland-Austria without refuelling in Germany ONCE using a exceptionally economical French registered Renault Trafic van.


----------



## MichiH

Road_UK said:


> bloody caravans


It was snowing yesterday afternoon (>10cm). A lot of cars with summer tires etcetera... Chaos... Congestion...

45km congestion b/n Aschaffenburg and Marktheidenfeld towards Würzburg. Traffic info said driver loose about 2 hours. In additional, a 6km congestion near Würzburg (30km on A6 west of Nuremberg, A8, A96,...). All congestions towards south/east - towards Alps...

But there was one exception, A3 Wertheim-Rohrbrunn, the eastern Spessart ascending slope, towards Frankfurt. A caravan driver got stopped on the emergency lane east of Rohrbrunn. He couldn't driveaway. He uncoupled his caravan which trundled on a snow heap. He drove his car to the rest area Rohrbrunn (T+R Spessart) and... Waited. He called police after two hours and asked "where the hell is my caravan, I'm at the rest area and still waiting. Please bring my caravan now!"

The rescue vassels have no tow-bar for caravans. The congestion took about 2 1/2 hours.....


----------



## Road_UK

Yesterday has been horrible in Germany and Austria. It was snowing all over mid-Germany and all the roads were clogged as it was the first Ab- und Anreise Tag to the ski resorts. Something we can look forward to every Saturday now until spring. Took me 4 hours to get from Munich to my house even using B-roads. Normally it takes me 2 hours using Autobahn.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A popular myth. Yes, in theory you can fill up in Poland and drive to the Netherlands without refueling (thus paying fuel taxes) in Germany.


The toll is because of the Austrians. It's an election pledge by CSU party which only exists in Bavaria. Bavarians have to pay toll in Austria but Austrians do not have to pay toll in Bavaria. Austrians just drive 100km on Bavarian Autobahns on their way from Salzburg (Austria) to Kufstein (Austria).


----------



## Road_UK

Is that Austria also getting their own back charging Germans travelling from Lindau to Kiefersfelden vignette AND Arlberg tolls? :lol:


----------



## Wilhem275

^^ What I can't get is how a very local and marginal problem, as the use of the Deutsches Eck, became such an important issue for the whole Bayern.

Is people in Franconia really so bothered by the Austrians using the A93?


----------



## MichiH

Wilhem275 said:


> Is people in Franconia really so bothered by the Austrians using the A93?


Not at all. But CSU party is mainstream in Franconia too (> 50%)... Most of CSU politicians are from upper Bavaria (Oberbayern, around Munich) and toll was their (main? - I don't remember but it was the only CSU topic in media) election pledge. CSU/CDU is also called "Union" - which means that they are always in coalition - and of course, CSU got their pledge into the coaltion agreement. But it's common to complain about toll in Austria, Switzerland,... Germans love to complain... Are Franconians really bothered... I don't think so. People around me love to complain about Dutch caravans... 

In general, media and folk like to follow these kind of political gags / nonsense .


----------



## andy5

Why do they complain about caravans?

Germany has 80 or 100 kph limits for trailers and caravans. The 100 seems to be only available after a TUeV test of vehicle and trailer, then apply to the local registration office for a sticker. This might be too tricky for visitors to bother.

Belgium 120, France 130

If caravans are causing hold-ups by being too slow, maybe it's due to the speed limit being unnecessarily low.


----------



## Road_UK

They're not complaining as much about caravans but the number plate behind them which are usually yellow :lol:


----------



## MichiH

andy5 said:


> Why do they complain about caravans?


Because they are Dutch .

Edit: Road_UK was faster and is absolutely right .


----------



## Road_UK

Of course in reality the Dutch and Germans are the best and strongest of friends


----------



## MichiH

Yep, except on roads, football,...


----------



## Rohne

ChrisZwolle said:


> A45 has quite a high share of trucks, that makes the Autobahn busy even with somewhat lower than 'overloading' traffic volumes. There are calls to widen A45 to six lanes from Dortmund to Gießen. I believe most or all bridges will be replaced by new bridges with space for six lanes and shoulders.
> 
> A fairly large number of bridges already features 3 lanes in at least one direction, though some have been narrowed again due to the poor condition.


It's definitely an 'all'. All planning for A45 is done in anticipation of a widening to six lanes of complete route between Dortmund and Gambacher Kreuz (where it intersects with A5 Kassel - Frankfurt), which was agreed some years ago by Hesse, NRW and the federal government. 2 sections in Hesse are already in planning for 6lane widening.
Virtually A45 already has 5 lanes on most of it's length, a few kms already are at 6 lanes but congestion (not only trucks, most traffic jams I experienced there were not caused by truck traffic) is just too high for the sections where at least one direction only features 2 lanes.


----------



## MichiH

Rohne said:


> It's definitely an 'all'. All planning for A45 is done in anticipation of a widening to six lanes of complete route between Dortmund and Gambacher Kreuz


Yes and no. Some bridges will just be renovated first (Sanierung). All bridges which will be rebuilt (Neubau) are planned to feature 2x3 lanes plus hard shoulders (3rd lane could remain closed until neighboring section features 2x3 lanes too).


----------



## Rohne

But the few renovations are just temporary. In the end all bridges will have been rebuilt, featuring six lanes plus hard shoulder. There's not the slightest doubt that the whole A45 Dortmund - Gambach will be widened to six lanes in the mid term. Only a question of when (regarding funds), not if.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Correct. I wrote "first" . I guess the entire 2x3 widening will take very long (2030+).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On the other hand, there are often only a few kilometers between to-be-replaced-bridges. They might as well widen those stretches to six lanes while they're working on the new bridge. The major cost will be at the bridges anyway.


----------



## MichiH

^^ In Hesse, 2x3 upgrades w/o bridges are only planned b/n Marbachtal and Lützelbach viaduct and b/n AK Gießen-Süd and AK Gambach. See project page. Marbachtal and Lützbach viaduct are already u/c (to be completed by Late 2018 or Early 2017), the 2x3 widening is in early design phase.


----------



## italystf

flierfy said:


> No, you shouldn't. This thread is dedicated to roads in Germany. It certainly doesn't need yet another off-topic post.


I didn't mean I will post in this thread, there's also the RRA.


----------



## italystf

Mackem said:


> Back to roads.... there are several reasons here really, reconstruction of the East which cost hundreds of billions has taken funds from western states, Germans have an aversion to debt so don't want to run up vast deficits to solve the problem. They have however got a new and costly policy regards lowering the retirement age, this has been criticised by some economists, but is part of the coalition agreement with the SPD.


Before the reunification, West Germany financed the construction of _Transitautobahnnen_ between West Germany and West Berlin, across the DDR. This, together with the existence of some pre-WWII motorways, made the DDR having a better highway network than other commie countries (including the non-alligned Yugoslavia).


----------



## MichiH

*B33 widening in the Kinzig valley*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *B33:* AS Offenburg-Elgersweier (B3) – AS Gengenbach-North 2 5.2km (2012 to 2016) – ? – map
> 
> 
> 
> Some bridges are completed but there are no ongoing works because the Federal Ministry must approve the rised costs. The last calculation expected 9.6 million € in 2005. The new calculation expects more than 20 million € because of generally rised construction costs. The works are announced to be completed in late 2016. Source.
Click to expand...

There's a little delay of one or two years (source). The B33 widening is announced to be completed by (2017 or) 2018. Preliminary works began in 2010 but the negotiations with the owners of the land are not yet finished. There are hundreds of very little parcels of land. The total construction costs are minimum 21.9 million €. The higher costs are caused by:
- Higher general building costs (+33% since 2005)
- Modified EU regulations for bridges and
- it was not planned that the construction is done while traffic is driving on the existing B33 ("Damals nicht einkalkuliert worden sei, dass die Bauarbeiten bei laufendem Verkehr stattfinden, was die Bauzeit erheblich verlängert und damit verteuert.")

There's no realignment. It's an upgrade of the existing road. I don't get why the hell they could forget that about 18,000 vehicles/day drive on the existing road.......

2+1 widening of Gengenbach-North - Gengenbach-South section will begin in 2017 at the earliest. 2+1 widening of Steinach - Haslach secion will begin in 2018 at the earliest. There's no prediction about Haslach bypass. The 2+1 tunnel variant would cost 140 million €.


----------



## MichiH

*A26 Stade - Hamburg*

*A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork 4.6km (Summer 2006 to 28th November 2014) [direction Stade] – project – map
*A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork 4.6km (Summer 2006 to Summer 2015) [direction Hamburg] – project – map

The Jork bypass is delayed (completion November 2015 instead of July 2015) and the 3rd traffic counting is done afterwards. Thus A26 towards Hamburg could be opened in spring or summer 2016 at the earliest. Source.


----------



## ChasingCars

*Route to Austria*

Good morning,

I am looking for an advice regarding the route to Austria. I will be leaving for Königsleiten in Austria next sunday and I have been looking for the best direction. 
Originating in Utrecht, the standard route is to take A3 and A9. But I saw there are a number of Baustellen on this route. 

The logical alternative would be A61-A5-A8 but on this route there are numerous Baustellen as well.

What would you guys advice?
Thanks in advance!


----------



## Road_UK

Use A3/A9 anyway. A61 route is a death trap especially around Stuttgart., and the A3 route has been done up nicely over the last few years. These few road works are not worth mentioning. Sunday is a good day to travel, but travel as much in the night as you can as it can still get busy. Saturday is a no-go area on all motorways heading in this direction or direction Holland. Hope you have a great week in our little beautiful part of the world...

Route to take:

A12 (NL), A3 (Oberhausen, Köln, Frankfurt, Würzburg, Nürnberg), A9 (München), A8, A99 towards Salzburg, Innsbruck, A93 towards Innsbruck, A12 (AT) exit Zillertal. At Zell am Ziller turn off towards Gerlospass and follow the road past Gerlos and you are there.

If you find yourself stuck in traffic after Munich you can come off at Holzkirchen and follow the road towards Tegernsee/Achensee. Keep going in a straight line after Tegernsee and you'll end up in the Zillertal - usually no congestion on that route.


----------



## Fane40

Road_UK said:


> Use A3/A9 anyway. A61 route is a death trap especially around Stuttgart.
> 
> Why A61 is a death trap?


----------



## Road_UK

Not the A61 itself, that's fine. But the route from Holland to Austria via Stuttgart is sketchy at best with all the roadworks and congestion along the way.


----------



## tunnel owl

MichiH said:


> ^^ Correct. I wrote "first" . I guess the entire 2x3 widening will take very long (2030+).


Well, this A45 widening up to 2x3 lanes seems to be one of the most underrated projects. It´s not mainly due to reunification costs, why it takes time. It was on hold because people believed that the A4-gap will be closed. Now we have to assume that closing this gap is not foreseeable anymore. Therefore A45 carries a lot of north-south and east-west through-traffic. It really has to be widened as fast as possible.

Kind regards


----------



## Suburbanist

Are there any plans to modernize L98 near Offenburg between A5 and the French border?


----------



## MichiH

*Parking*

An elder woman tried to park in Bad Säckingen (19th February):
 source: Südkurier (Just little demage at the underbody b/c she could stop the car in front of the wall)












An elder man tried to park in Bad Säckingen (4th February):
 source: Südkurier


----------



## Road_UK

1st picture looks like good parking. Nice and secure. Nobody's going to steal that there...


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi




----------



## MichiH

*B49 Limburg - Wetzlar*

*B49:* Deponie Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to Late 2017) – project – map
*B49:* Solms – AS Oberbiel-East 3.2km (May 2010 to Early 2015) – project – map

The existing 2x2 B49 near Oberbiel was extended by about 300m since December 2014. The rest of the 3.2km section no. 11 is mostly in u/c but there's a 1200m stretch in the middle where no works are in progress. Well, the project page announces a completion delay to 2016. The updated completion date of section no. 3 is 2018.


----------



## MichiH

*Main bridge Stockstadt collapse on 30th August 1988*

The A3 east of Frankfurt was widened to 2x3 lanes. The bridge over the river Main at Stockstadt near Aschaffenburg was built in 1958. The reconstruction began in 1987. Due to a design error, the bridge collapsed during the construction on 30th August 1988. Shipping on river Main was blocked for a longer time (it happened prior to the completion of the Rhine–Main–Danube Canal Rotterdam (NL) - Constanta (RO)).

 source: brueckenweb.de (more pics and info)

The bridge features four carriageways with 10 lanes (plus 2 hard shoulders) since its completion in 1991, see OSM.


----------



## MichiH

*A40 Rhine bridge near Duisburg is damaged too*

The next Rhine bridge has a problem. The 777m A40 Rhine bridge near Duisburg has a similar problem like the A1 Rhine bridge near Leverkusen (welding lines must be reinforced). The number of lanes is reduced from 6 to 4 lanes since October 2014. It will be reduced to 1 lane towards Essen. Maybe the opposite direction must be reduced to 1 lane too. In addition, the bridge will be temporarily closed for trucks > 3.5t (for 5 weeks). The AADT is about 100,000 vehicles/day, thereof 11,000 trucks. It's planned to rebuilt the entire bridge. See press release.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

_Bei elf Trägern sind aktuell starke Risse festgestellt worden._

That sounds pretty serious. Cracks have been found in 11 beams. 

This bridge hasn't been in the news as much as the Leverkusen Rhine Bridge, I wonder how fast they can replace this bridge.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> _Bei elf Trägern sind aktuell starke Risse festgestellt worden._
> 
> That sounds pretty serious. Cracks have been found in 11 beams.
> 
> This bridge hasn't been in the news as much as the Leverkusen Rhine Bridge, I wonder how fast they can replace this bridge.


The basic rule of thumb is: small bridge 1 year, big bridge 2 years and a very big bridge 3 years. 

This matches with the plans related to the A1 bridge at Leverkusen: construction start 2017 and complete 2020.


----------



## Road_UK

So the Bavarians got their way and tolls applies from next year onwards. Ah well, a maximum of 130 euros per year is not the end of the world....


----------



## Kampflamm

Der Spiegel reports that the European Commission has concluded that the toll breaks EU law (in German): http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...-laut-gutachten-gegen-eu-recht-a-1020850.html


----------



## Road_UK

Is that likely to stop them?


----------



## MichiH

I've seen a caricature today. It shows the Bundestag. A politician (I guess from CSU party) preaches 'Greek must stop their nonsensical election pledge'. A guy in the audience is amazed: 'Ahh, haven't known Dobrindt and Seehofer are Greek'.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> This bridge hasn't been in the news as much as the Leverkusen Rhine Bridge, I wonder how fast they can replace this bridge.


It's in a very early planning stage. Maybe by 2025 or later (source). It's in service since 1970 - 5 years later than A1 Leverkusen Rhine bridge.



> Nach dem Jahr 2025 könne die neue A40-Rheinquerung bereitstehen, hieß es zuletzt vage. Bis dahin muss das alte 777m lange Bauwerk halten, irgendwie.





MattiG said:


> This matches with the plans related to the A1 bridge at Leverkusen: construction start 2017 and complete 2020.


Just the bridge of the 1st carriageway. The 2nd bridge is announced to be built 2021 to 2023.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Road_UK said:


> Is that likely to stop them?


^^
Now only the Royal Air Force can stop the Germans.




MichiH said:


> Nach dem Jahr 2025 könne die neue A40-Rheinquerung bereitstehen, hieß es zuletzt vage. Bis dahin muss das alte 777 Meter lange Bauwerk halten, irgendwie.
> 
> 
> 
> Nach dem Jahr 2025 könne die neue A40-Rheinquerung bereitstehen, hieß es zuletzt vage. Bis dahin muss das alte 777 Meter lange Bauwerk halten, irgendwie.
Click to expand...

^^
Thanks. And now in English please.


----------



## Road_UK

:lol:


----------



## MichiH

*List of German Rhine Autobahn bridges*

A42 Duisburg-North (1986-90) Info & Pics AADT2010: *62.500* (6.625 trucks); 2x3
A40 Duisburg-Center (1966-71) Info & Pics AADT2010: *91.500* (11.712 trucks); 2x3, temporarily 2x2, 2x4 widening planned
A44 Düsseldorf-North (1998-02) Info & Pics AADT2010: *57.400* (3.387 trucks); 2x3
A46 Düsseldorf-South (1976-79) Info & Pics AADT2010: *75.700* (7.267 trucks); 2x3
A1 Leverkusen/Cologne-North (1962-65) Info & Pics AADT2010: *119.400* (14.089 trucks); 2x3, 2x4 widening planned
A4 Colgne-South (1938-41) Info & Pics AADT2010: *120.500* (12.773 trucks); 2x3, 2x4 widening proposed
A565 Bonn-North (1964-67) Info & Pics AADT2010: *106.500* (5.645 trucks); 2x3
A562 Bonn-South (1967-72) Info & Pics AADT2010: *58.400* (1.402 trucks); 2x3
A48 Koblenz (1960-65) Info & Pics AADT2010: *60.400* (6.402 trucks); 2x2
A643 Mainz-West/Wiesbaden (1959-62) Info & Pics AADT2010: *77.300* (5.875 trucks); 2x2, 2x3 widening u/c
A60 Mainz-East (1960-62) Info & Pics AADT2010: *87.300* (7.421 trucks); 2x3
A6 Mannheim-North/Ludwigshafen-North (1938-64?) Info & Pics AADT2010: *56.900* (6.714 trucks); 2x2, 2x3 widening planned
A61 Speyer (1971-75) Info & Pics AADT2010: *50.300* (10.211 trucks); 2x2, 2x3 widening planned
A5 Mulhouse (1977-79) Info & Pics AADT2010: *13.300* (3.551 trucks); 2x2
A861 Rheinfelden (2003-06) Info & Pics AADT2010: *?*; 2x2

magenta = "current problem bridge"


----------



## MichiH

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Thanks. And now in English please.


It could maybe be completed after 2025. The existing bridge must be used until then.


----------



## piotr71

*A4, Aachen-Cologne*

New tarmac and interesting signs on A4.


----------



## MichiH

piotr71 said:


> New tarmac and interesting signs on A4.


Showing the German version of the so-called "Tree of the years" vote ("Baum des Jahres").


----------



## piotr71

*A4, Jena*

Old A4 after opening Jena tunnel.


----------



## piotr71

Das Auto un die autobahn


----------



## mappero

piotr71 said:


> Old A4 after opening Jena tunnel.


No more overtaking almost everyone on cruise control up the hill  
Hilly motorways are always more fun to drive than flat, wide and new one


----------



## John Maynard

Kampflamm said:


> Der Spiegel reports that the European Commission has concluded that the toll breaks EU law (in German): http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...-laut-gutachten-gegen-eu-recht-a-1020850.html


^^ Prove that Germans act and are supported in a very "nationalistic" way despite of being a major EU "integration" country.
I would be very curious to see, how would Germans react if, per example, Poles would make them pay a "special foreigners taxes" - as they are doing themselves right now.


Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> Now only the Royal Air Force can stop the Germans.


Don't forget Russians, and "comrade" Putin in force :lol:.


mappero said:


> No more overtaking almost everyone on cruise control up the hill
> Hilly motorways are always more fun to drive than flat, wide and new one


^^ Yeah, I used to love driving in old hilly and curvy RAB - before they "corrected" them to new wide, no more hilly and straight portions :bash: - especially A4 near Eisenach and (still) A8. Even when riding "only" 120 km/h you feel like a race driver :lol:. There is also these stretches by Kassel and by Hof that are nice .


----------



## Corvinus

Road_UK said:


> Ah well, a maximum of 130 euros per year is not the end of the world....


While being against all and any new road tolls, I also see these 130€/yr are about the price of the Hungarian yearly vignette - for a network about 10 times smaller. So indeed it is not an exaggerated amount, and being a maximum, many (newer) cars will get away with less.

Motorcycles, electric cars, vehicles of disabled persons and ambulances would be exempt from the new toll.

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article135491632/Was-Autofahrer-jetzt-ueber-die-Maut-wissen-muessen.html

Toll controls shall be carried out by automated electronic random controls of license plates; no physical toll sticker would be delivered. 

The article also mentions sanctions in case of non-payment. The first-offense fine would be in a range of up to 150€, thereafter the fine would amount to 260€ (max.) and a yearly toll. The fine shall also be collected from foreign-registered vehicle owners (which I wonder how they plan to realize if the vehicle was not stopped on German territory).


----------



## Isek

[atomic] said:


> I wonder if rebuilding the A44 is necessary at all, it would only connect to the short stubble north of A46 which will never be connected to the A44 stretch ~10km to the north.hno:
> It would also be just a few km shorter (A44/61 to A44/52 via A61 and 52: 34 km via A44: 27 Km ->~7km less)
> A61 and A46-A57 already provide a better north-south connection today:bash:


As already explained. A61 will be demolished in the year 2017/18. Garzweiler will move at least for another 5 km westwards. If they do not cut the mine earlier than planned and stick to the old plans (building the Bandsammelpunkt Holzweiler) the extension to the west will be even more:












[atomic] said:


> We should just give the area back to nature and make the hole on the left a lake.


This area east of the proposed A44 will be filled up. The lake will be west of the new A61. But it will take about 100 years until it will be filled and ready to be used.


----------



## [atomic]

^^ thanks guys, good to know
absolutely crazy how much land they are using for the mine :nuts:


----------



## MichiH

^^ At least, the new (widened) Autobahns are paid by RWE 

A46 2x3 widening is u/c, new A44 2x3 is u/c, A61 was widened to 2x3 lanes and will be rebuilt by 2035.


----------



## detreinbek

only with this "birds view" I can realize the extent
Thank you for this photo


----------



## Kanadzie

[atomic] said:


> ^^ thanks guys, good to know
> absolutely crazy how much land they are using for the mine :nuts:


I'm amused that the braunkohle is actually worth enough to eat motorway, smalltowns, etc and build it back instead of just digging on the sides :lol: I guess it is consequence of the environment politics / energiewende :lol:


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yep, Germany will shutdown the nuclear power plants. New coal-fired power plants have to be and are built to compensate it. That's what we call eco-friendly


----------



## Attus

Kanadzie said:


> I guess it is consequence of the environment politics / energiewende :lol:


Exactly. Although it sounds crazy.


----------



## Isek

Kanadzie said:


> I'm amused that the braunkohle is actually worth enough to eat motorway, smalltowns, etc and build it back instead of just digging on the sides :lol: I guess it is consequence of the environment politics / energiewende :lol:


The 3 lignite mines in the Rhenish lowlands produce about 100 million tons of lignite every year. At this scale lignite is a reasonable cheep source of energy. In Hambach for example once the 200 m to 350 m overburden is removed you find a 40 to 50 m thick coal layer! That is rather super extreme. Nevertheless today's massive subsidies for wind and solar energy made electricity extremely cheap. So actually it is all about a huge flow of tax money to the renewable energies.


----------



## MattiG

Isek said:


> The 3 lignite mines in the Rhenish lowlands produce about 100 million tons of lignite every year. At this scale lignite is a reasonable cheep source of energy.


Cheap perhaps but not very efficient. In the Garzweiler area, for each 1 tons of lignite separated, there are 4,7 tons of other materials to store somewhere. The lignite is of low quality: it contains about 25% coal only. Therefore, burning it is like burning wet wood.

Burning lignite is not very environment-friendly. In addition, because of the open mine pits, the social consequences are not negligible: Since the WWII, 50+ villages have been demolished and 35000+ people have been moved from their homes to elsewhere.


----------



## Wilhem275

MattiG said:


> Since the WWII, 50+ villages have been demolished and 35000+ people have been moved from their homes to elsewhere.


I guess a part of that people would have moved anyway, we're still talking about rural areas with a large industrial attractor very close.


----------



## MattiG

Wilhem275 said:


> I guess a part of that people would have moved anyway, we're still talking about rural areas with a large industrial attractor very close.


I would call them suburban rather than rural. For example, the demolished Garzweiler were in a commuting distance from several cities: Düsseldorf 35 km, Mönchengladbach 20 km, Köln 50 km, Aachen 45 km. The villages demolished earlier were even closer to the cities: The Frechen area is only 15+ km from the center of Köln. Thus no need to move in order to pursue new challenges.

Quite big fraction of the inhabitants of the demolished villages have moved the new villages built as replacements.


----------



## EPA001

MichiH said:


> ^^ At least, the new (widened) Autobahns are paid by RWE  A46 2x3 widening is u/c, new A44 2x3 is u/c, A61 was widened to 2x3 lanes and will be rebuilt by 2035.


I will miss the A61 once it is time for her to give way. The new route will force the drivers to take turns at three junctions which is more inconvenience. But after 2035 the A61 will be back again as a newly built Autobahn. So after about 18 years she can be used again.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Leverkusen Rhine Bridge*

I found these renders of the Leverkusen Rhine Bridge replacement project.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I found these renders of the Leverkusen Rhine Bridge replacement project.


This version has been chosen. Source with more pics:


----------



## pmaciej7

MichiH said:


>


Just to compare:




















MichiH said:


>


----------



## Wilhem275

Well, looks much better...


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Looks much better and it`s wider - 5+5 lanes


----------



## tfd543

What is the status of ring Road A10 around Berlin. Is it finished/widened?


----------



## [atomic]

^^ 
The Highway around Berlin was finished in 1979.:lol:
But there are ongoing widening projects, The A10/A11/B2 interchange has been rebuilt recently and there are plans to widen the A10 in the north (from A24 to Kreuz Barnim) and in the south west (around Potsdam).


----------



## MattiG

tfd543 said:


> What is the status of ring Road A10 around Berlin. Is it finished/widened?


 It is like a cathedral. It will never get finished.


----------



## miumiuwonwon

*Road trip part three*



*24 + 25* A3 near Würzburg.




*26* Must be a Bundesstraße (German for "federal highway") over A3.


*27* The section of A3 between Würzburg and Nuremberg is also constructed as a dual three-lane autobahn. 


*28* A7 after Würzburg.


*29* Now heading for Schwenfurt via A70.


*30* Shortly after for Erfurt via A71.


*31 + 32* Breathtaking sunsets over A71.




*33* The newly built ICE high-speed line between Leipzig/Halle and Nuremberg will be in full operation in 2017.


By me.


----------



## miumiuwonwon

A 2+2 Bundesstraße (B9) with speed limit of 120km/h near Ludwigshafen.


By me.


----------



## detreinbek

"Think big" ... this message in Germany today only a few people understand. Projects that bring our country forward are no more to realize or if yes than with a delay from many years. The A 20 is one of the best example for it. If we continue like this we will become a developement country one day, comparing to some european neighbours and my Second Home Malaysia.


----------



## MichiH

Thanks for the pics 



miumiuwonwon said:


> *19 + 20* On the third day, driving on A81 west of Stuttgart.


The pic is strange. I think I've never seen that left lane empty there, while the other lanes are like on the pic. A81 b/n Stuttgart and Heilbronn usually looks like on the opposite carriageway where the left lane is the most busiest one.



miumiuwonwon said:


>


The pic shows a typical congestion but I guess the speed is still "high" (> 60km/h).



miumiuwonwon said:


> *21* A long straight section of A81, where jet fighters could land and take off.


Yes, the 2.5km straight (map) was designed to be an emergency runway for planes (also commercial planes).
Looks like one could drive fast there but I think I've never driven faster than 200 b/c people always overtake slower vehicles there hno:.



miumiuwonwon said:


> *22 +23* Congestion in the opposite direction. We had good luck :cheers:


You cannot see it on the pic but that's also a "straight" of almost 2km (map). You can use the slope to drive quite fast . I'm not used to drive slower than 200 there.



miumiuwonwon said:


> *26* Must be a Bundesstraße (German for "federal highway") over A3.


Nope. It's just an ecoduct. Wildlife crossing (map).


----------



## Eulanthe

In regards to the PKW-Maut - does anyone actually know what the new categories will be? All I've found is that the price ranges from 5 to 15 Euro - but without any definitions.


----------



## MichiH

^^
http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Artikel/IR/prognose-infrastrukturabgabe.html (German)
http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Artikel/LA/infrastructure-charging-bill.html (English; less info)


----------



## Eulanthe

So my (as a foreigner) vignette depends on the Euro classification of my engine?

I don't even know what my engine is, it's not written anywhere and I don't have any documents talking about it. I have the green umwelt sticker, but isn't that given to any petrol car?

Maybe I'm stupid, but it's just not something that I've ever had to consider. I've got two cars, but the one I use to drive to Germany is my 2003 Astra with an obscure 1.2 8V engine that even most Opel dealers aren't aware of. It's a great car for runs to Berlin, as the engine only uses around 25 litres for the return trip. 

So yes, any ideas? I can't even find anything online that references the Euro class...


----------



## Kanadzie

wow, I drove to Germany with a 1.6 16v Astra and I felt it so slooow
1.2 8 valve oh boy, it is almost a waste to go to Germany with less than V8 engine


----------



## Attus

Eulanthe said:


> So my (as a foreigner) vignette depends on the Euro classification of my engine?


Basically yes. 
I have no idea how on earth will a car that was never sold in Germany classified. I read many articles about toll, but it was nowhere explained. But I'm sure there will be a clear process for that.


----------



## SRC_100

Kanadzie said:


> it is almost a waste to go to Germany with less than V8 engine


Since we have engine downsizing in Europe, just little car left on market with V8 or bigger engine as a brand new... unfortunately...
The most radicules is Ford Mondeo (medium class car) - in US and Canada known as Fusion - with 1.0 litre 3 cilinder engine :nuts:


----------



## Suburbanist

I never drove faster than 175 in Germany (south of Kassel). I try to stick to speeds within 150-160, above that fuel consumption is just too high and lanes just too narrow for my comfort.


----------



## MichiH

Eulanthe said:


> So my (as a foreigner) vignette depends on the Euro classification of my engine?


Yes.



Eulanthe said:


> So yes, any ideas? I can't even find anything online that references the Euro class...





Attus said:


> Basically yes.
> I have no idea how on earth will a car that was never sold in Germany classified. I read many articles about toll, but it was nowhere explained. But I'm sure there will be a clear process for that.


It's not German but EU classification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Toxic_emission:_stages_and_legal_framework

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/air/transport/road.htm


----------



## MichiH

*A643*



MichiH said:


> The demaged "Vorlandbrücke" will probably be jacked next week (source; until "Good Friday"). Afterwards, the temporary traffic routing must be undone. The Rhine bridge should be opened (for cars) around Easter.


The Schiersteiner Brücke will probably be opened for vehicles < 3.5t next Monday if a static load test will be done on Friday. There will be each a scales for vehicles. If its weight is >= 3.5t, the bridge will immediately be closed by a gate. Police have to open the gate to remove the truck. Fine: 75 € or 150 € in case of premeditation. Two lanes will direct to the bridge from Wiesbaden but only one lane will direct to the bridge from Mainz: press release, project page, news article.

Pics from SWR (click for more layouts):















The demaged bridge is in the middle of the pic (b/n acceleration and deceleration lanes). Construction of the new Rhine bridge on the left.


















More info and pics: http://www.eautobahn.de/html/bruckenhebung_mainz-mombach.html.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That seems to be a different system than they employed in Ludwigshafen:


B44-7 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Eulanthe

Attus said:


> Basically yes.
> I have no idea how on earth will a car that was never sold in Germany classified. I read many articles about toll, but it was nowhere explained. But I'm sure there will be a clear process for that.


I just cannot figure it out at all. I've looked at both car registration documents and there's no mention whatsoever of anything that can be used to determine the Euro class of the engine. It just has the power output, nothing more. 

More to the point, what on earth will stop the average Pole from buying a 5 Euro vignette? The cameras will show that the car has a valid vignette, and how on earth would someone working in a petrol station be expected to be able to read Polish registration documents for instance?

As for going to Germany with a 1.2 8V engine - honestly, it's not a big deal on runs to Berlin. Tje limit is 120km/h on the A12 anyway, and the car is ridiculously economical when running around big cities anyway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

My car registration card (we don't have papers anymore) includes the EU environmental class (noted under V.9): 715/2007*692/2008F. According to a Google query that is a Euro 5 engine.


----------



## Unit8200

i´ve heard german autobahns will be in future with toll ?


----------



## SRC_100

^^
You don`t say? 
That`s really breaking news!


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> My car registration card (we don't have papers anymore) includes the EU environmental class (noted under V.9): 715/2007*692/2008F. According to a Google query that is a Euro 5 engine.


I don't have anything of the sort, I've looked at both documents closely and there's no mention of EU environmental classes. 

My registration documents are new, so - isn't this a huge loophole in the system?

(on further checking, it seems that Germany uses a date system where the Euro engine class can't be determined for the umweltzone - I assume the same will apply here. I'm still convinced that if the vignette can be bought abroad, then we'll see a glut of foreigners with valid vignettes paying the lowest possible price, especially Czechs and Poles)


----------



## MichiH

I think the German toll system with EU environmental classes is copied from Poland: http://www.gddkia.gov.pl/en/1126/motorway-tolls. Poland is also using EURO categories for vehicles > 3.5t. However, Germany will use it for vehicles for vehicles < 3.5t too.


----------



## MichiH

*B10 Rosensteintunnel Stuttgart*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The B10 Rosensteintunnel project in _Stuttgart_ is u/c now (OSM). The B10 is a main road through Stuttgart. The project will be completed until late 2019. Costs: 231 million €.
> The Rosensteintunnel has a length of 1300 m. It will feature 2x2 lanes. The project also contains a new 3-tubed Leuze tunnel at the B10/B14 intersection in the south. Its longest tube has a length of 300m.
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics of the B10 Rosensteintunnel construction in _Stuttgart_.
> 
> Neckartalstraße, southern tunnel opening (January/February 2015; map):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> Pragstraße, northern tunnel opening (January 2015; map):
> Source: project page.
Click to expand...

The mining of the tubes officially started on Saturday. See press release.


----------



## MichiH

*A643*

The A643 'Vorland' bridge of the Schiersteiner bridge b/n _Wiesbaden_ and _Mainz_ will be strengthened by 80 additional steel pillars. The bridge will be reopened for vehicles > 3.5t in late 2015. 1 lane per direction will be in service until Mid 2016 when the first new Rhine bridge will be completed. See press release.


----------



## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> The mining of the tubes officially started on Saturday. See press release.


Good Heavens, the Stuttgart people like big things, don't they :cheers:


----------



## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> Good Heavens, the Stuttgart people like big things, don't they :cheers:


Yeah, it's build by the municipality of Stuttgart. The Mayor of Stuttgart, Mr. Fritz Kuhn, is a former co-chairman of the Green party! I seems, Greens like to build great road infrastructure .

btw: Stuttgart is German no. 1 in tomtom stats about road congestion...


----------



## Suburbanist

IS there any plan to ultimately link B10 with B29 in Stuttgart?


----------



## MichiH

^^ It was in the BVWP 2015 but it's canceled now. Thanks to the Greens!


----------



## verreme

^^ How can these people get such a huge share of votes in a state where car industry is so important? For God's sake, there's _Porsche _in Stuttgart! I just don't picture the average Porsche buyer (or worker) voting the greens and allowing them to systematically block all road infrastructure projects and threatening to impose a general speed limit, especially with road-loving Bayern so close.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There are also the headquarters and major plants of Daimler (Mercedes, Smart,...), Bosch (no.1 automotive supplier) and ZF (big automotive supplier) in Baden-Württemberg. In addition, there are many machine builders which are focused on automotive industry.

The first regional association of the Green party (Landesverband) was founded 1979 in Sindelfingen. There's also the largest Mercedes plant in Sindelfingen. The Federal association of the Green party (Bundespartei) was founded 1980 in Karlsruhe.

Baden-Württemberg got the first German green Minister-President in *2011*. CDU got 39% (conservative party of Merkel), *Green 24%*, SPD 23% (social-democratic party), FDP 5% (liberal party). Opposites thought it's caused by "Stuttgart 21" conflict (big railway project) and Fukushima but opinion poll still says (26th March *2015*): CDU 38%, *Green 25%*, SPD 18%, FDP 5%, The Left 5% (socialistic-democratic party), AfD 4% (Eurosceptic conservative party). It's higher than in 2011. The voters seem to be happy with their government .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I gotta say the wishlist for the _Bundesverkehrswegeplan_ from Baden-Württemberg was not a big disappointment as one may have expected with the greens in the government. Although new alignment construction isn't ambitious, they wanted to widen nearly every Autobahn in the state.


----------



## LM69

MichiH said:


> A8 near _Merzig_ is currently closed eastbound for construction site installation (crash barriers). It will be closed westbound next week. Construction of _Kohlenbruch_ viaduct will begin on 27th April 2015. See press release.
> 
> An additional press release reports that planning costs were 1.1 million €, construction costs are 44.1 million €. It also contains a detailed project info.
> 
> The 2nd carriageway will be completed in November 2017.


Yeah! I live in the near of the area... I'm very glad it had been afforded to built the 2nd carriageway (after about 30 years!). Man these maximum speed of 80km/h used to be so annoying but it'll take a while til it's finished


----------



## Isek

MichiH said:


> btw: Stuttgart is German no. 1 in tomtom stats about road congestion...


No wonder since the Autobahn network is very weak for the urban area of about 3 million situated in rather dense populated region.


----------



## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> Yeah, it's build by the municipality of Stuttgart. The Mayor of Stuttgart, Mr. Fritz Kuhn, is a former co-chairman of the Green party! I seems, Greens like to build great road infrastructure .
> 
> btw: Stuttgart is German no. 1 in tomtom stats about road congestion...


I assume that it was not in Mr. Kuhn mayorship that this project was started?


----------



## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> I assume that it was not in Mr. Kuhn mayorship that this project was started?


Planning started thousand years ago but construction work began in late 2014. Mr. Kuhn is in office since January 2013 .

The old council passed the beginning of the tender procedure just after election but prior the new mayor was in office - in late October 2012. See news article from 25th October 2012 (2). Mr. Kuhn had no chance to stop the project although he and his parry are against it .


----------



## Heico-M

At least, he might have added a bicycle lane :lol:


----------



## MichiH

*2nd gen of PPP projects*

The following projects are to be checked whether than can be implemented as PPP projects (sorted north to south, west to east):

A20, 2x2 construction of Elbe tunnel (map)
A26, 2x2 construction including Hafenquerspange; Hamburg (A1) - Rübke (map)
E233, 2x2 widening AS Meppen (A31) - AS Cloppenburg (A1) (map)
A10/A24, 2x3 widening (A10) und renovation (A24) AS Neuruppin - AD Pankow (map)
A4, maintenance AS Gotha - border TH/SN (map)
A3, 2x3 widening AK Biebelried - AK Fürth/Erlangen (map)
A6, 2x3 widening AK Weinsberg - AK Feuchtwangen/Crailsheim (map)
A8, 2x3 widening Rosenheim - border D/A (map)

A57, 2x3 widening Moers - Cologne (map)
B247, 2x2/2x4 construction of A38 - Bad Langensalza (map)

600km, 7 billion € constuction costs, 7 billion € maintenance costs. See press release.

1x Brandenburg
1x Baden-Württemberg (partial in Bavaria)
1x North Rhine-Westphalia
2x Thuringia
2x (3x) Bavaria
3x Lower Saxony (2x partial)
- 1x Hamburg (partial)
- 1x Schleswig-Holstein (partial)


----------



## Isek

Especially for the A3 and A8: When dreams come true!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That is really good news, I hope they can make it happen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E233*



MichiH said:


> E233, 2x2 widening AS Meppen (A31) - AS Cloppenburg (A1) (map)


I know it's not considered a very high priority in Germany, but I'm so happy this project is included. There was little chance for a completion before 2030 or even 2035 given the reports of exceedingly slow planning and construction pace of other conventional projects in this thread. 

This road is only a two-lane highway. Although it bypasses all towns, there are a number of traffic lights and the endless convoys of trucks doing 65 - 70 km/h on this road makes it a total drag. 

With 100 km/h you can drive from A31 to A1 in 50 minutes, but in reality it's closer to 75 minutes with all those trucks. At 120 km/h it could be done in nearly 40 minutes.

This route is in fact the shortest from Rotterdam to Hamburg and trucks use it to avoid the LKW-Maut (it's nearly the same travel time for them). The Netherlands upgraded the route to motorway in 2007, together with a small portion of B402 in Germany to the A31 interchange west of Meppen.


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## Suburbanist

I have a question, since I'm not following in details all updates on bridge closures and else. I'm going from Netherlands to Würzburg next week. There are numerous route combinations between A40 and A3 (A61, A3, A45 or even A7 (via Kassel) are viable routes) within 1 hour of "travel time without traffic"

Which of these routes have bridge closures or severe bottlenecks?


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## Isek

I drove the A3 between Frankfurt and Dusseldorf last week. There are numerous small construction sites. But there were always 3 lanes open so it was ok. 

Wouldn't the A61 until Dreieck Nahetal an alternative route if you go through Frankfurt urban area at a time in between the rush hours.


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## MichiH

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question, since I'm not following in details all updates on bridge closures and else. I'm going from Netherlands to Würzburg next week.


I'll drive the same route next week but WÜ --> NL --> WÜ .



Suburbanist said:


> There are numerous route combinations between A40 and A3 (A61, A3, A45 or even A7 (via Kassel) are viable routes) within 1 hour of "travel time without traffic"
> Which of these routes have bridge closures or severe bottlenecks?


A40, A1 and A643 Rhine brigdes are partially closed. There are some construction sites on A3 b/n Frankfurt and Würzburg. If there's an accident you can easily get stuck in a 10-15km congestion. It usually happens in late afternoon (about every other day). A3 Cologne - Frankfurt is often in traffic reports.

I guess you'll start near Eindhoven, so I'd recommend A61. At Koblenz you can decide whether you'd like to take A48/A3 (some construction sites) or A61 (longer distance; ~15km).

A4/A45 is not an option because of the closed A1 Leverkusen Rhine bridge and general congestion risk around Cologne.
A40/A44/A7 is longer. A40 through Ruhr area is usually congested but it depends on the time of day. A44 is 2x2 and often congested. There are some construction sites on A7.

The latter could be an option because A7 is less congested and you could drive on high speed there.
What's your destination, WÜ downtown? If your destination is east of WÜ (e.g. Schweinfurt etc.), A7 could really be an option.


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## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*

Some news about A14 b/n A24 (Schwerin) and A2 (Magdeburg). Let's start with a short overview:
26km are in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (Mecklenburg-West Pomerania; section 6 + 7).
32km are in Brandenburg, up to the Elbe river (section 3.2 + 4 + 5).
97km are in Sachsen-Anhalt (Saxony-Anhalt). The Saxony-Anhalt story is a mess. A 5.7km section is in service, all other sections are in planning stage (appeals etc.).

Let's focus on the northern sections:

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, *section 7* is u/c (148 million €): *A14:* AK Schwerin – AS Grabow 16.2km (November 2012 to Late 2015) – ? – map
(plan approval procedure: February 2011 to April 2012; co-funded by EU)

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, *section 6* is announced to begin soon (100 million €): *A14:* AS Grabow – AS Groß Warnow 9.8km (June 2015 to Late 2017) – ? – map
(plan approval procedure: 2011/12 to November 2012)

Brandenburg, *section 5* is u/c (118 million €): *A14:* AS Groß Warnow – AS Karstädt 11.5km (October 2013 to Late 2015) – project – map
(plan approval procedure: Early 2009 to March 2013; co-funded by EU)

Brandenburg, *section 4* is still in planning stage. It has a length of about 17.5km, begins at Karstädt i/c and ends at Wittenberge i/c (map). The plan approval procedure began in April 2009 but a nature protection area is affected (birds; FFH). The DEGES is currently planning new routes but these affect some villages. Their inhabitants are not amused. There are 4 routes (2 north of Bentwisch village, 2 b/n Bentwisch and Lindenberg village), DEGES wants to find its favorite (Vorzugsvariante) by late 2016. See press release, news article, homepage of a citizens' group (there's a map showing old (purple) and a new (red) route). I think, a new plan approval procedure could begin 2018 at earliest.

It's announced that the plan approval order of Brandenburg/Sachsen-Anhalt *section 3* (>10km; map; plan approval procedure began in January 2010, modification procedure (Tektur) began in October 2014) will be passed in late 2015. It includes the Elbe viaduct.

There are section 2.2, 2.1, 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1.2 (in service) and 1.1 in Sachsen-Anhalt.


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## MichiH

*A21 Kiel - Hamburg*

*A21:* north of AS Nettelsee – south of Nettelsee 2km (February 2012 to Late 2017) – project – map

 source: KN-online.

The pic shows a temporary bat protection fence. The fence has a length of 1330m and costs 700,000 €. The fence will be removed in about 10 years when new bushes will be high enough.


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## detreinbek

The bats !!! A never ending story in Schleswig-Holstein. Same with the A 20 construction south from Bad Segeberg. We started with bridges for the forest animals, tunnels for the frogs and now fences for the bats. What will come next ??


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## MichiH

^^ It's not only Schleswig-Holstein. It's whole Germany. And they refer to EU law........

Don't forget birds and bugs. All these creature are much more important than the damn useless human beings........


----------



## TrojaA

Yep, but often many environmentalists are just people who use environment protection as a mechanism for their NIMBYism. (Which annoys me much more than "real" environmentalists)

Hopefully Hamburg will be chosen for the Olympic Games in 2024, because I hope that they will then invest in some road and railway infrastructure together with the fact that NIMBYism will be fought much faster. (E.g. the upgrading of the B404 to A21 and hopefully it pushes the western bypass of Hamburg a little bit. The A7+A1 around Hamburg are horrible on weekends)


----------



## MichiH

TrojaA said:


> Yep, but often many environmentalists are just people who use environment protection as a mechanism for their NIMBYism. (Which annoys me much more than "real" environmentalists)


NIMBYs are only successful if there are environmental faults in the planning documents. The environmental issues are the instrument to delay the projects and make them more expensive.

A current example from Bavaria: B300 connects _Regensburg_/_Ingolstadt _to _Augsburg_. A90 was planned there in the 1970th. There is just one very short bypass missing, the bypass of _Weichenried_. It was planned to build a northern bypass and widen the neighboring sections to 2+1 (map). The plan approval procedure began in fall 2005 but it had to be cancel two years later because the A143 court decision showed that environmental issues must be considered more accurate, see press release. The planning documents have been completely revised, a new route is found, a new plan approval procedure could finally begin "soon", see news article.




TrojaA said:


> Hopefully Hamburg will be chosen for the Olympic Games in 2024, because I hope that they will then invest in some road and railway infrastructure together with the fact that NIMBYism will be fought much faster. (E.g. the upgrading of the B404 to A21 and hopefully it pushes the western bypass of Hamburg a little bit. The A7+A1 around Hamburg are horrible on weekends)


I think the projects could be speed up but Olympic Games would also cost a lot. But I agree because I think Hamburg region really lacks of proper road infrastructure and there are adequate projects to solve the problem (compared to Ruhr area, Frankfurt, Stuttgart or Munich region which have no sufficient concepts).


----------



## Rohne

MichiH said:


> (compared to Ruhr area, Frankfurt, Stuttgart or Munich region which have no sufficient concepts).


How do come to that conclusion? Stuttgart, partly d'accord. Nordostring or better A45 would really help there, and Munich should at least build A95-A96 section of A99. But apart from that, I don't see the demand and usefulness of new motorways. All four regions have dozens of very needed widening projects in the pipe or at least in planning stage, they just lack federal funding.


----------



## snowdog

What is happening on the Baustelle on BAB2 Near Kolenfeld ( nearby Hannover) ?

There is a bloody 45 minute traffic jam in both directions, but there wasn't a single soul working on the road yesterday, are those idiots doing anything to keep downtime to a minimum over there, or do they just enjoy screwing motorists over ? Took over an hour to get from Rehren to Hannover :bash:.

Looking on livetraffic now and there is major congestion there again hno:.
When do they actually work on the road ?

Took 13 bloody hours to get from Rotterdam to Poznan yesterday because of the Baustelle rubbish in Germany and an accident later on.

EDIT:

Renovation works on a small 14km stretch, why on earth can't they do it at night or in the weekend ? Instead of losing down half the motorway for three bloody weeks.

//rant, perhaps I'm spoilt being used to roadworks being done in weekends or nights over here...


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## keokiracer

Wait, I'm pretty sure yesterday that stretch of road was closed pretty much the entire day due to a deadly accident (truck ploughed into the back of the traffic jam caused by the Baustelle). Or am I mixing things up and was that 2 days ago?


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## snowdog

My father asked me yesterday what was going on in that stretch when he was stuck there ( he left R'dam at 13.00, arrived in Warsaw at 4am :/ ), he didn't mention an accident on that stretch, just about ''them idiots who closed half the road and nobody working on it caused me to lose more than an hour there'' alongside some accident further on that cost him hours.

Accidents can happen, but I also remember recently when I went to Berlin, how rubbish they do the road works over there compared to over here. No intention whatsoever of avoiding closing down major roads in busy hours/days. 45 minute delay in both directions for a 14km stretch of works outside of rush hour is completely unacceptable.


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## keokiracer

A2 was closed at around 4 AM and only reopened somewhere during/after evening rush-hour. A2 was closed from Ausfahrt Lauenau to whatever the next exit is called.

By any chance, does your father own an Audi? 
https://instagram.com/p/2Yi4iHx17h/


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## MichiH

Rohne said:


> How do come to that conclusion? Stuttgart, partly d'accord. Nordostring or better A45 would really help there, and Munich should at least build A95-A96 section of A99. But apart from that, I don't see the demand and usefulness of new motorways. All four regions have dozens of very needed widening projects in the pipe or at least in planning stage, they just lack federal funding.


I wrote "lacks of proper road infrastructure" and "projects to solve the problem". Autobahn widenings are also projects to get better road infrastructure... 

There was Stop&Go on A3 b/n AK Frankfurt and AS Hanau today (~ 4-6PM). I lost a lot of time. A3 was almost "empty" before and after, really wired :nuts:.
Is there any adequate concept to fix the damn bottleneck? The current (and probably the future) demand plan (BVWP) contain 2x4 widening but the interchanges are the bottlenecks. The planning procedure is on snail's pace..... No advance at all in the past > 5 years. It's not just lack of money... Hesse authority is the best one in traffic management but not in planning.

In general, I prefer parallel 2x2 roads instead of 2x4 or even 2x5 roads.


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## MichiH

There was a conference about Rhine bridges in North Rhine-Westphalia. 11 bridges are maintained by municipalities, 12 are Federal roads. See press release. It was just a talk about supporting municipalities blah blah....

But there's a link to a document showing all 23 NRW Rhine bridges with road number, name/location, year of construction, responsible (Baulastträger), Rhine-km, length of Rhine bridge, length including "Vorlandbrücken", bridge draft)


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## MichiH

*Toll*

The new toll law passed the Bundesrat, see press release.

The Federal President, Mr. Gauck, must sign it next. Afterwards, tendering for operator can begin. The operator must establish and operate an E vignette system. The KBA (Federal Motor Transport Authority) must establish and operate a database ("Infrastrukturabgaberegister").


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## MichiH

*A8 near Pforzheim*

Visualization of future A8 Enztal crossing near Pforzheim (OSM, remaining 4.8km section b/n Karlsruhe and Stuttgart which is not yet widened to 2x3).


























































The Baden-Württemberg Minister of Transport, Mr. Hermann (Green party), requested the Federal Minister of Transport, Mr. Dobrindt (CSU party) to provide funding for ensuring that works could begin as soon as possible. Preliminary works will start immediately though. Major projects like this need about 1-2 years for preparation. The construction period will be about 5 years. Costs: 147.3 million €. See press release.


----------



## MichiH

*B109 Anklam bypass*

The last section of B109 _Anklam_ bypass was opened on Friday 8th May (map). The final section (section no. 1) has a length of 1.8km. The plan approval order was passed in April 2010, construction works began in July 2011. Costs: > 15 million €.

Section no. 2 (2.5km; map) and section no. 3 (2.8km; map) were opened in 1999 / 2002. Total bypass length: 7.1km. Total costs: 25.6 million € (13.85 million € Federal budget, 11 million € ERDF budget (EU), 0.5 million € agriculture and environment office, 0.1 million € MV state, 0.1 million € Anklam municipality). See press release and news article.


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## Isek

MichiH said:


> Visualization of future A8 Enztal crossing near Pforzheim.


That's a very special part of the A8. I always thought that widening will solved by building a big bridge.

So wich section will be the last that is 2x3 b/w Munich and Karlsruhe? I guess Albaufstieg.

They sould also think about a 2x4 or 2x5 b/w Rutesheim and Kirchheim. Maybe also separating the long distance traffig from the regional traffic would be an option: 2x2 regional and 2x3 long distance.


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## MichiH

Isek said:


> That's a very special part of the A8. I always thought that widening will solved by building a big bridge.


IIRC it was an option long ago.



Isek said:


> So wich section will be the last that is 2x3 b/w Munich and Karlsruhe? I guess Albaufstieg.


Yep, I reported about it a couple of weeks ago.



Isek said:


> They sould also think about a 2x4 or 2x5 b/w Rutesheim and Kirchheim. Maybe also separating the long distance traffig from the regional traffic would be an option: 2x2 regional and 2x3 long distance.


Yes and no. Widenings are planned but there won't be a separation b/n local/regional and transit traffic. I think 80% is local/regional traffic near Stuttgart.


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## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> The new toll law passed the Bundesrat, see press release.
> 
> The Federal President, Mr. Gauck, must sign it next. Afterwards, tendering for operator can begin. The operator must establish and operate an E vignette system. The KBA (Federal Motor Transport Authority) must establish and operate a database ("Infrastrukturabgaberegister").


Meanwhile, Austria has addressed the EU-commission to investigate whether the German toll law is in line with EU regulations. 

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/so...-gegen-deutsche-pkw-maut-mobil-a-1033379.html

Violetta Bulc, the EU Commissioner of Transport has earlier expressed her scepticism towards the toll law. 

Remember: Angela Merkel has promised before the Federal Elections in September 2013, that there would be no car toll. But the car toll made it into the coalition agreement, passed the Bundesrat and the Bundestag. The EU may stop it now. 

If Merkel really has counted on the EU to stop the toll law, then she has both kept the coalition contract and her promise to the people. That would be a masterpiece of diplomacy!!!

Horst Seehofer's behaviour indicates that this may be the case. He has announced to retire in 2017.


----------



## MichiH

*B6n Bernburg bypass*



MichiH said:


> Summer 2015: *B6n AS Bernburg/Nienburg (L65) – AS Bernburg-East* (4.6km; map; u/c since 2010; 2+1)
> 
> 
> 
> The final segment of the B6n _Bernburg_ bypass will be opened on 29th May 2015. Source.
> 
> The B6n construction b/n A395, A14 and A9 (~130km; map) began in October 1997. It's a parallel west-east connection south of A2 and north of A38. The first section is in service since 2000. It's motorway-like b/n A395 and A14 but only 2+1 and partial with at-grade intersections b/n A14 and A9. The final 15km section b/n _Köthen_ and A9 is announced to be completed by 2018 or 2019 (map). Funding for preliminary works is approved for 2015. It's planned to extend B6n to Torgau (~50km; map; 2+1; early planning stage).
> 
> It's discussed whether B6n could/should be rededicated to A36 b/n A395 and A14 but it's only RQ26 (cross section) instead of RQ28. IIRC, the space reservation next to the road does not fulfill the official motorway standard.
Click to expand...

The final section was opened today. The first 2.7km section of the _Bernburg_ bypass was already opened in December 2011. The entire bypass (7.3km) costs 92 million €. About 50% are funded by EU ERDF. The rest is funded by the federal "Infrastrukturbeschleunigungsprogramm I" and "Konjunkturprogramm II" (infrastructure speed-up program I or stimulus package II).


----------



## MichiH

*2nd gen of PPP projects*



MichiH said:


> The following projects are to be checked whether they could be implemented as PPP projects (sorted north to south, west to east):
> 
> A20, 2x2 construction of Elbe tunnel (map)
> A26, 2x2 construction including Hafenquerspange; Hamburg (A1) - Rübke (map)
> E233, 2x2 widening AS Meppen (A31) - AS Cloppenburg (A1) (map)
> A10/A24, 2x3 widening (A10) und renovation (A24) AS Neuruppin - AD Pankow (map)
> A4, maintenance AS Gotha - border TH/SN (map)
> A3, 2x3 widening AK Biebelried - AK Fürth/Erlangen (map)
> A6, 2x3 widening AK Weinsberg - AK Feuchtwangen/Crailsheim (map)
> A8, 2x3 widening Rosenheim - border D/A (map)
> 
> A57, 2x3 widening Moers - Cologne (map)
> B247, 1x2/2x2 construction of A38 - Bad Langensalza (map)
> 
> 600km, 7 billion € constuction costs, 7 billion € maintenance costs. See press release.
> 
> 1x Brandenburg
> 1x Baden-Württemberg (partial in Bavaria)
> 1x North Rhine-Westphalia
> 2x Thuringia
> 2x (3x) Bavaria
> 3x Lower Saxony (2x partial)
> - 1x Hamburg (partial)
> - 1x Schleswig-Holstein (partial)


There was a forum about "Infrastructure future" last week. More info: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Artikel/LA/zukunftsforum-infrastruktur.html (German only)

There are two interesting documents (but they are incosistent; my comments in brown; my status notification: ** = completed; * = u/c; * = tender procedure; * = tender procedure should be possible "soon"; * = early planning stage*):

*PPP experience and outlook*

1. step 2005-2009 (230km concession length containing 175km to be widened, construction costs: 1.1 billion €): 
*** A8 (BY) München-Augsburg 37km: in service since December 2010; 2x3 widening
*** A4 (TH) HE/TH border-Gotha 25km: in service since September 2010; 2x3 widening with realignment
*** A1 (NI) Hamburg-Bremen 72km: in service since October 2012; 2x3 widening
*** A5 (BW) Malsch-Offenburg 41km: in service since July 2014; 2x3 widening

2. step (concession length: 540km, construction costs: 3 billion €): 
*** A8 (BY) Ulm-Augsburg (awarded); 2x3 widening to be completed by late September 2015
*** A9 (TH) Lederhose-TH/BY border (awarded); 2x3 widening in service since November 2014
*** A7 (SH/HH) Bordesholm-Hamburg (awarded); 2x3/2x4 widening u/c November 2014 - December 2018
*** A94 (BY) Forstinning-Marktl; tender procedure start: August 2013; new 32km 2x2 road
*** A7 (NI) Salzgitter-Göttingen; tender procedure start: April 2014; 2x3 widening, partially already u/c or completed
*** A6 (BW) Wiesloch-Weinsberg; tender procedure start: September 2014; 2x3 widening, partially already completed; one plan approval procedure ongoing
*** A61 (RP) Worms-RP/BW border; tender procedure start: aspired to be 2015/16; 2x3 widening, 1st plan approval order passed in December 2014; 2nd plan approval procedure begin in 2007; no planning north of A6
**(?)* A44 (HE) Kassel-Diemelstadt; tender procedure start: aspired to be 2015/16; 2x3 widening (5.5km) planned but plan approval procedure has not yet began, I guess it's a maintenance contract
*** A1/A30 (NW) Osnabrück-Münster; tender procedure start: aspired to be 2015/16; 2x3 widening, 1st plan approval order was passed in April 2015 (began September 2010), 3 plan approval orders still ongoing (since September 2012, October 2014 and September 2013), no info about any planning activity for A30 widening

- Additonal PPP projekts could be e.g. Elbe crossing (A20) Albaufstieg (A8), Weser crossing (A281); only A20 is in 2nd gen list! A8 plan approval procedure is announced to be restarted in late 2017; A281 plan approval order was passed in June 2010 but still challenged


*Presentation of 2nd gen PPP projects*

** *1st project: (BB) A10/A24 Neuruppin-Pankow, 74km; tender procedure start 29th May 2015; 2x3 widening of A10; A24 will only be renewed but with temporary 3rd lane option; plan approval orders complete; construction period: 2017-2020
*** 2nd project: (BY) A3 Biebelried - Fürth, 79km; tender procedure start: 1st half of 2016; 2x3 widening; 6 of 10 plan approval orders are completed; remaining plan approval procedures are announced to be completed by end of 2015
** *3rd project: (TH) A4 Gotha - border TH/ST, 122km; tender procedure start: Mid 2016; already 2x3, maintenance contract only

Medium-/long-term projects:
*** A26 (HH) Rübke-A1, 25km, "F-Modell" = extra toll; new 2x2 road; 1 plan approval procedure ongoing; 3 sections in early planning stage
*** A20 (NI/SH) Elbquerung, 8km, "F-Modell" = extra toll; new 2x2 road; plan approval orders are challenged
*** E233 (NI) Meppen-Cloppenburg, 84km; 8 sections, no plan approval procedure has been started yet; planning procedure is funded by the local districts
*** B247 (TH) Bad Langensalza-A38, 32km; 1x2/2x2; plan approval orders passed in December 2009, November 2011 and February 2012
*** A6 (BW/BY) Weinsberg-Feuchtwangen, 69km; 2x3 widening; early planning stage
*** A8 (BY) Rosenheim-BG D/A, 70km; 2x3 widening; 2 plan approval procedures ongoing (since July/August 2014), remaining sections in early planning stage
*** A57 (NW) Köln-Moers, 31km; 2x3 widening; partially u/c or completed, 2 plan approval procedures ongoing (since 200x / May 2014), 3 sections in early planning stage


I've no idea why the 1st project of the 2nd generation is already in tender procedure while most of the 2nd step projects are not yet ready to be tendered hno:.


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming groundbreaking ceremonies*



MichiH said:


> Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, *section 6* is announced to begin soon (100 million €): *A14:* AS Grabow – AS Groß Warnow 9.8km (June 2015 to Late 2017) – ? – map
> (plan approval procedure: 2011/12 to November 2012)


The A14 groundbreaking ceremony will be on 23rd June 2015 (source).



*B51:* AS Münster-Warendorfer Straße (B481) – AS Münster-Wolbecker Straße 2.7km (Mid 2015 to 2020?) – ? – map

B51 is the extension of A43 and an eastern bypass of Münster (300,000 inhabitants). The 2x2 widening is split into 3 sections. The construction of the first section began in 1989, the 1st and the 2nd section are in service.

The plan approval procedure of the 3rd widening section - which also includes a northern extension, B481 (3.6km; 2+1/1x2; map; L587 will be rededicated) - began in December 2005. The plan approval order was passed in September 2011, appeals were rejected in Mid May 2015. B51 AADT 2010 was 20,600 vehicles/day with a truck share of 8.3% there, 55,800 east of A1/A43 interchange Münster-South.

The B51 widening is funded (48 million €) and the groundbreaking ceremony will be between 22nd June and 3rd July 2015. The total costs - including B481 - are 98 million €. There is no info about an estimated completion date but it was announced that the construction period should be 4 or 5 years. It's said that the B51 and B481 construction will not be completed before 2020 - because B481 is not yet funded. Source.


----------



## TrojaA

MichiH said:


> *** A26 (HH) Rübke-A1, 25km, "F-Modell" = extra toll; new 2x2 road; 1 plan approval procedure ongoing; 3 sections in early planning stage


Are they serious? I think there will be not much toll revenue, if they just charge for the Rübke - A1 part. There're the L141 and B3 as alternatives and using the A7 arm is an alternative if you don't come from southwest/A1 but instead from southeast (A7).
So it can't be a expensive toll imho, else the alternatives are attractive enough to use them.


----------



## MichiH

TrojaA said:


> Are they serious?


I'm not sure at all..... I read so much bullshit..... It could also be a copy-paste error....

I thought it could be possible to create a "large" toll zone - A20 Elbe tunnel including A26 (A20 tunnel - A1) -, to lead trucks to use A20 and avoid Hamburg. But that's bullshit too.... :dunno:


----------



## MichiH

*B2R Munich*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The B2R section in Munich will be opened on a Saturday in late July 2015 (source). I guess it's 25th July 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> The opening ceremony will be celebrated from 23rd to 25th July (including a Friday night concert), the estimated opening for traffic is announced for 27th July 2015 (source).
Click to expand...

The Luise-Kiesselbach tunnel will already be used by G7 presidents on their way from Munich to Elmau because it's not possible to travel by helicopter. It's not officially confirmed by police though (source).


----------



## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> Meanwhile, Austria has addressed the EU-commission to investigate whether the German toll law is in line with EU regulations.
> http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/so...-gegen-deutsche-pkw-maut-mobil-a-1033379.html


EU commission suggests that the car toll should be introduced by steps. First *for transit routes only*. This way, the compensation by lowering the car taxes for Germans is *not discrimination of foreigners!* Source and original source (German only).



> Angeregt etwa wurde, die Maut zunächst auf Transitstraßen zu erheben, nicht aber in Ballungsräumen mit hohem Pendleraufkommen. Der Vorteil dieser Lösung wäre, dass damit auch die von der Bundesregierung geplante Entlastung der deutschen Autofahrer durch Nachlässe bei der Kfz-Steuer von der Einführung der Maut entkoppelt würde.
> 
> They suggested to introduce the toll on transit roads in first step. Not in agglomerations with high commuting traffic. This way, the reduction of the car tax is separated of the toll introduction.


:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:


----------



## Heico-M

Now I know the solution. The toll will only be charged on the A8 between Munich and Salzburg :banana:

Wasn't that the original purpose anyways?


----------



## MichiH

It's up to 35°C today. First concrete sections of A3, A92 and A93 in Bavaria are limited to 80km/h due to "Blow up" risk. Source (2; video shows old pics).


----------



## flierfy

Heico-M said:


> Now I know the solution. The toll will only be charged on the A8 between Munich and Salzburg :banana:


Sondermautstrecke Saalachbrücke would do its purpose. €2 per passage for vehicle narrower than 2 metres and €5 for any other.


----------



## Eulanthe

To be honest, I can't help but think that the most logical solution is simply to allow the Lander to decide whether they want a toll or not on the motorways. 

This madness of a "phased introduction" is just...madness.


----------



## pin24h

Isn't there a website where you can download official images of German autobahn signage, along with a windows viewer?


----------



## Attus

Eulanthe said:


> To be honest, I can't help but think that the most logical solution is simply to allow the Lander to decide whether they want a toll or not on the motorways.
> 
> This madness of a "phased introduction" is just...madness.


True.
But in Germany tha main issue is not the toll itself. If Germany want to introduce a toll, paid by everyone, the EU would not say a single word against it.


----------



## flierfy

Eulanthe said:


> To be honest, I can't help but think that the most logical solution is simply to allow the Lander to decide whether they want a toll or not on the motorways.


Motorways are federal roads in Germany. It's the federal government who is in charge of them. Hence a general toll on German motorways requires a federal law which then applies to the entire network.


----------



## Autoputevi kao hobi

*Fahrt auf der A2 A1 A45 (Bielefeld - Hagen)*


----------



## MichiH

*A98 Hochrheinautobahn*



MichiH said:


> Well, the completion of this A98 section (including the 486m long Herrschaftstunnel) is a little bit postponed. New completion date: *2020* (source). The groundbreaking ceremony was in March 2009.
> 
> The planning authority (Regierungspräsidium / regional board) has too less manpower for the detailed design planning. The 2014 budget is 7 million €. The annual budget for 2015 to 2020 should be 15..20 million €. The tendering for the main parts should be started in late 2015.
> 
> Lack of employees is a general problem of the planning authorities especially in Baden-Württemberg, see here. Baden-Württemberg declined about 100 million € in 2013 b/c tenders could not been started due to incomplete documents.


*A98:* AD Hochrhein – AS Rheinfelden-Karsau 2.5km (March 2009 to 2020) – project – map

There were no construction works in progess since the first earth works lot was finished in May 2013. The construction of two 100m "Kaltluftdurchlass" bridges (one for each c/w) began today. They cost 4.5 million € and should be completed by late 2016. The detailed engineering of the 2nd earth works lot was completed and tendered too. Bids are on hand now. 1.2 million cubic meter have to be moved from fall 2015 to summer 2018.

The construction of the 2nd tunnel tube (Herrschaftstunnel, 485m) is approved by the Federal Ministry of Transport now (only the 1st c/w is "urgent demand" (vordringlicher Bedarf) in the Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan 2003 (BVWP), 2nd c/w is "extended/additional demand" (Weiterer Bedarf)). Tender documents are prepared till late 2015. Tender procedure will begin in early 2016. Construcal work (Rohbau) period: Fall 2016 to December 2019. Costs: 60 million €. Source: press release.

btw: the project page link has changed: https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rpf/Abt4/Ref44/Seiten/A98.aspx.


----------



## Attus

Is there any public database where I can check the AADT of motorways and other roads? (I speak good German, so no problem if it's in German, I simply have no idea about the proper German translation of AADT, so I don't know what to search for )


----------



## TrojaA

A proper translation would be: durchschnittliche tägliche Verkehrsstärke (DTV) which is one kind of "Verkehrsstärke"-data.
For automatically counted data check out http://www.bast.de/DE/FB-V/Fachthemen/v2-verkehrszaehlung/zaehl_node.html
For other road types you have to check out the local authorities (e.g. Statistisches Landesamt Baden-Württemberg etc.)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> "Kaltluftdurchlass" bridges


What is that? I understand what it means literally, but is this the name of a bridge or some kind of technical feature?


----------



## Attus

TrojaA said:


> A proper translation would be: durchschnittliche tägliche Verkehrsstärke (DTV) which is one kind of "Verkehrsstärke"-data.
> For automatically counted data check out http://www.bast.de/DE/FB-V/Fachthemen/v2-verkehrszaehlung/zaehl_node.html
> For other road types you have to check out the local authorities (e.g. Statistisches Landesamt Baden-Württemberg etc.)


Wonderful, thank you!


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> Is there any public database where I can check the AADT of motorways and other roads? (I speak good German, so no problem if it's in German, I simply have no idea about the proper German translation of AADT, so I don't know what to search for )





TrojaA said:


> A proper translation would be: durchschnittliche tägliche Verkehrsstärke (DTV) which is one kind of "Verkehrsstärke"-data.


Correct. But there are many special kind of DTV: > click <, e.g. DTV_Kfz_Mo‐So_Q or DTV_SV_W_Q .



TrojaA said:


> For automatically counted data check out http://www.bast.de/DE/FB-V/Fachthemen/v2-verkehrszaehlung/zaehl_node.html
> For other road types you have to check out the local authorities (e.g. Statistisches Landesamt Baden-Württemberg etc.)


There are many data bases, different systems.
Let's begin with DTV 2005/2010 data of manual counting: http://www.bast.de/DE/Statistik/Verkehrsdaten-Downloads/2010/Manuelle-Zaehlung-2010.html?nn=625790. We entered them into a data base (2005/10 including comparsion option). If required, I could also send you the excel sheets.

Some states provide the data on maps where you can see the (exact) position:
- Bavarian data is on BAYSIS: data, map.
- NRW data is available on NWSIB: http://services.gis-consult.de/NWSIB-online/ (map --> "Sichtbarkeiten/Verkehrsdaten").
- ... 

AVZ 1998/2003/2008 (foreign traffic counting): http://www.bast.de/DE/Statistik/Verkehrsdaten-Downloads/AVZ/auslaenderverkehrzaehlung.html?nn=625790.


The *2015 manual counting* is in progess (April-October 2015): http://www.bast.de/DE/Statistik/Ver...inien-svz-2015.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2.



> Richtlinienentwurf *Aug 2014*
> Bund-Länder-Gespräch 09./10. September 2014 in Berlin *Sept 2014*
> Einführung der Richtlinien durch das BMVI (Erlass) *Sep 2014*
> Übergabe SIB-Daten zum Zählstellenverzeichnis (ZV) an die BASt *Okt/Nov 2014*
> ZV-Aktualisierung mit Programm SVZ-Online durch die Länder *Dez 2014/Jan 2015*
> Versand der Zählanweisung an die Länder *Jan 2015*
> Eingang der Zählstellenkarten im Auswertebüro *Jan 2015*
> Endgültiges ZV mit Angaben zum Zählumfang je Zählstelle *Feb 2015*
> Eingabe der Zähldaten des 1. Halbjahres *Juli 2015*
> Eingabe der Zähldaten der Ferienzählungen *Sept 2015*
> Eingabe der Zähldaten des 2. Halbjahres *Okt 2015*
> Übermittlung von Hilfsgrößen an die Länder *Juni 2016*
> Datenprüfung durch die Länder *Juli 2016*
> Hochrechnungsergebnisse *Aug 2016*


NRW press release (> 8,000 locations)
Hesse press release (~ 3,500 locations)


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> What is that? I understand what it means literally, but is this the name of a bridge or some kind of technical feature?


Yep, I couldn't find much data but at least a short description:



> Ein Kaltluftdurchlass, der für das Mikroklima in dem Bereich als notwendig angesehen wird
> 
> A cold/fresh air passage which is required for the microclimate there


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Germany under construction.


----------



## MichiH

*A4*



> Spring 2015: *A4 2x3 widening Düren - East of Düren* (2.2km; map; u/c since ?; 2x3)


The section should be opened 2x3 last night, see press release. The last 2x2 A4 section (2.2km near _Kerpen_) b/n _Aachen_ and _Cologne_ is announced to be completed by late 2015.


----------



## MichiH

*A33 Osnabrück - Bielefeld*



MichiH said:


> Another news article: > click <.
> 
> This article quotes the road authority. *The Bielefeld-Center to Halle-Künsebeck section (7.9km) should be opened in late 2017 (DE: "könnte")*. The last section will be partial opened in 2018 (_Halle_-_Künsebeck_ to _Halle_; 4.0km) and the final section (_Halle_ - _Borgholzhausen_; 8.6km) will be opened in 2019.


The section is split into two lots. The construction of the pavement ("Streckenbau") on the northern lot began 9 month ago. The construction of the pavement onthe southern lot began last week. Both are announced to be completed by late 2016, see press release and news article.
The groundbreaking ceremony was in September 2009. A short part north of Bielefeld-Center i/c is already completed but will be put into service next year (~9.0km in total).


----------



## MichiH

*A40 Rhine bridge near Duisburg is damaged too*



MichiH said:


> A40 Rhine bridge 'Neuenkamp' (map) is closed eastbound for vehicles >= 3.5t since 10th March 2015. Additional damages were found. The closure will be extended to early May. Afterwards, the opposite direction will be closed for vehicles >= 3.5t for 5 weeks. The bridge will be opened for trucks again but only 2 lanes per direction will be in service. The u/c carriageway is currently one laned only, the other one is 2-laned. See press release.


The closure for trucks is finished. The bridge features 2x2 lanes for trucks and cars now. Each 3rd lane will remain closed until the new bridge will be opened. A feasibility study of the new bridge was recently presented. It should have a width of 65m instead of 36.8m and will feature 2x4 lanes plus hard shoulders plus bike/footway. Construction period: 2019-2024 or later. The bridge was designed for an AADT of 30,000 vehicles/day but the current AADT is almost four times. Nevertheless, there has not yet been any big chaos during the lane closures. See press release, news article no. 1, news article no. 2 or project page.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> It's up to 35°C today. First concrete sections of A3, A92 and A93 in Bavaria are limited to 80km/h due to "Blow up" risk. Source (2; video shows old pics).


Relief cuts on A3 cambered and must be milled off within the next weeks. Each one lane will be closed meanwhile. It's planned to renovate A3 b/n Straubing and the Austrian border by 2018. Source.



> ABDSB: Die A3 ist am Ende. Sie hat ihre Lebensdauer schon lange überschritten
> Road authority: A3 is on the ropes. It has exceeded its lifespan long ago.


----------



## MichiH

*Future motorway/expressway projects with approval*

I created a list of future motorway and expressway projects with approval (however, some are still challenged, some are only on the list to complete the entire project). That means, these projects are funded or could(!) be the candidates to be funded "soon" (please refer to the link in my signature to get a list of all u/c projects and legend):


*A14:* AS Grabow – AS Groß Warnow 9.8km (June 2015 to Late 2017) – ? – map (MV; plan approval: 2011 – November 12; funded)

*A21:* north of Nettelsee – north of AS Nettelsee ~ 2km (? to ?) – project – map (SH; plan approval: April 2008 – February 2011; funded)

*A44:* AK Ratingen-East (A3) – AS Heiligenhaus 4.0km (Summer 2015 to 2020) – project – map (NW; plan approval: 1991 – February 2007; additional approval: ? – February 2012; ? – 2016 (drainage); complaints rejected; funded)

*A44:* AD Kassel-East (A7) – AS Helsa-East 11.3km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: Mid 2006 – still in progress; completion of entire project)
*A44:* AS Waldkappel – Hoheneiche 7.2km (Spring 2015 to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: September 2002 – October 2011; complaints rejected; funded)
*A44:* Hocheneiche – AS Sontra-West 5.4km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: April 2006 – January 2012; complaints withdrawn)
*A44:* AS Sontra-West – AS Sontra-Ost 10.8km (2017 to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: July 2012 – September 2013)
*A44:* AS Sontra-Ost – AD Wommen (A4) 6.0km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2011 – February 2013; complaints withdrawn)

*A49:* AS Schwalmstadt – AS Stadtallendorf-North 13.3km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – January 2012; complaints withdrawn)
*A49:* AS Stadtallendorf-North – AD Ohmtal (A5) 17.4km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – May 2012; complaints pending)

*A60:* east of AS Winterspelt – north of AS Prüm 18.2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – March 1979; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)

*A62:* south of AS Bann – south of AS Weselberg 9.3km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – July 1983; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
*A62:* Schwarzbach viaduct – AS Pirmasens 6.0km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – July 1983; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)

*A64:* east of AS Trier – north of Biewertal viaduct 0.9km (? to ?) – project – map (RP; plan approval: ? – 1977; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)

*A66:* AD Erlenbruch (A661) – AS Frankfurt-Bergen-Enkheim 2.6km (2016 to 2022) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – February 2007; additional approval: ? – September 2009; official groundbreaking ceremony took place on 23rd September 2009; neighboring A661 u/c)

*A72:* AS Rötha – AK Leipzig (A38) 7.2km (2015/16 to 2020) – project – map (SN; plan approval: Early 2011 – December 2013; funded)

*A94:* AS Dorfen – AS Heldenstein 14.9km (2016 to 2019) – project – map (BY; plan approval: September 1998 – November 2011; complaints withdrawn; PPP tender procedure in progress)

*A281:* AS Bremen-Gröpelingen – AS Bremen-Seehausen 4.9km (? to ?) – project – map (HB; plan approval: ? – June 2010; compensation money negotiation in progress; PPP?)
*A281:* south of AS Bremen-Airportstadt – AS Bremen-Kattenturm 2.2km (2018 to 2021) – project – map (HB; plan approval: ? – April 2009; additional approval: May 2015 – still in progress (Late 2016); completion of entire project)

*A524:* west of AS Duisburg-Huckingen – west of AK Duisburg-South (A59) 0.8km (Fall 2015 to 2018) – ? – map (NW; plan approval: ? – December 2008; funded)


*B2:* south of AS Eschenlohe – AS Oberau-North 3.8km (? to ?) – project – map (BY; plan approval: ? – still in progress; completion of entire project)
*B2:* AS Oberau-North – AS Oberau-South 4.2km (September 2015 to 2021) – project – map (BY; plan approval: ? – February 2010; funded)

*B10:* AS Godramstein – AS Landau-North (A65) 4.1km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (RP; plan approval: ? – September 2010; complaints pending; rendition of judgment on 1st July 2015)

*B14:* AS Backnang-West – AS Waldrems 5.7km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – November 2005; new Backnang-Center i/c already u/c)
*B14:* AS Waldrems – AS Nellmersbach 1.9km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – November 2005)

*B27:* AS Donaueschingen – AS Hüfingen 4.1km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – September 2013)

*B29:* east of Böbingen – west of Essingen 6.9km (July 2015 to 2018) – project – map (BW; plan approval: October 1998 – September 1999; funded)
*B29:* west of Essingen – west of Aalen 3.5km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – December 2002; approval didn't expire b/c a bridge is u/c)

*B31:* Gauchachtal viaduct Döggingen 1.7km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 1991; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)

*B33:* AS Allensbach-West – Waldsiedlung 9.0km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 2007; additional approval: October 2014 – still in progress (safety reasons); entire project split into 6 sections (1 u/c, 1 completed))

*B47:* AS Worms (A61) – AS Worms-West 2.0km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – July 1973; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
*B47:* AS Worms-West – AS Worms-South 2.3km (? to ?) – project – map (RP; plan approval: 1977 – canceled; Late 2007 – January 2011; complaints rejected)
*B47:* AS Rosengarten-West – east of Rosengarten 3.6km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2009 – Mid 2015 (soon!))
*B47:* east of Rosengarten – AS Bürstadt-East 5.2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – December 1971; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
*B47:* AS Bürstadt-East – west of AS Lorch-West 3.0km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2010 – still in progress; completion of entire project)

*B49:* Löhnberg – Biskirchen 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: procedure should begin "soon"; completion of entire project)
*B49:* Biskirchen – Tiefenbach 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – September 2013)
*B49:* Tiefenbach – Leun 2.1km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – Late 2013)
*B49:* Leun – Solms 4.5km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – still in progress (2015); completion of entire project)

*B51:* AS Münster-Warendorfer Straße (B481) – AS Münster-Wolbecker Straße 2.7km (Mid 2015 to 2020?) – ? – map (NW; plan approval: December 2005 – September 2011; funded)

*B75:* AS Hamburg-Georgswerder – AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-Süd (A26) 4.8km (? to ?) [rededication A252/A253: 6.0km] – project – map (HH; plan approval: Early 2011 – June 2013; complaints pending)

*B247:* AS Mühlhausen/Weinbergen (B249) – AS Großengottern-West ~ 4km (? to ?) – ? – map (TH; plan approval: ? – November 2011)
*B247:* AS Großengottern-West – AS Schönstedt-East ~ 7km (? to ?) – ? – map (TH; plan approval: ? – February 2012; complaints rejected)

*B303:* AS Schirnding-West – DE/CZ border 4.3km (? to ?) – project – map (BY; plan approval: ? – September 2008)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A40/A448 Dreieck Bochum-West*

A nice aerial photo of the new Bochum-West motorway interchange. This is where A40 and new A448 connect. A448 is an upgrade of the existing southern ring road of Bochum. The project will be officially inaugurated on 22 June.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

> *Looming EU probe delays German road toll scheme*
> 
> *Germany is set to delay the launch of its controversial car toll scheme, according to the transport ministry. The EU is expected to announce a legal challenge against it as early as Thursday. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt, who is from Germany's conservative Christian Social Union (CSU) party, has announced he is to delay the introduction of a road toll scheme that would only charge foreigners and motorists whose vehicles are not registered in Germany.
> 
> Dobrindt told German daily "Bild" that Germany would "adhere to the rule of law and await a court decision." He was referring to the European Commission's plans to launch legal proceedings against Germany. An announcement to that effect is expected as early as Thursday.
> 
> Last month, EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said there were "serious doubts" that the car toll scheme was in line with the bloc's objective not to discriminate against foreign nationals.
> 
> But Dobrindt says he is prepared for a "tough fight" with the Commission and that he would not "deviate from our course to bring more justice to our roads," he told "Bild."
> 
> *On Twitter, the CSU insisted that it's "up to Germany and Germany alone to decide how to collect car taxes."*


^^
The CSU is boiling with rage! 

_"Juuuncker!!!"_


----------



## Heico-M

The road toll is dead. Says this commentary.
"Delayed" until infinity. 
http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommenta...as-ist-die-groesste-Peinlichkeit-der-CSU.html

Merkel keeps her promise. 

Angela, the poker queen. :cheers:


----------



## MichiH

*News*



MichiH said:


> *A14:* AS Grabow – AS Groß Warnow 9.8km (June 2015 to Late 2017) – ? – map (MV; plan approval: 2011 – November 12; funded)


The A14 groundbreaking ceremony will be on 23rd June 2015 (101 million €), see press release.



MichiH said:


> *B49:* Löhnberg – Biskirchen 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: procedure should begin "soon"; completion of entire project)


The B49 plan approval procedure is announced to begin in first half of 2016, construction will begin in 2019 at the earliest (source).



MichiH said:


> *A3 2x4 widening AS Leverkusen - AS Köln-Mülheim* (~4.5km; OSM; ? million €; plan approval order: January 2012; groundbreaking: Early 2015; source)





MichiH said:


> NW A3 AS Köln-Mühlheim - AS Leverkusen (2x4 widening); 33 million € are funded


The A3 construction works just began. The 3km section will be completed by early 2017. AADT ~155,000 vehicles/day. It will be widened asymmetrical to the west, see press release.


In addition, *3 viaducts* (250m, 100m and 430m; map) of *A1 b/n AK Osnabrück/Lotte (A30) and AS Lengerich* will be reconstructed. Construction works will begin on 22nd June and will last 3 years (source). It's not part of the 2x3 widening but the future viaducts could feature 2x3 lanes plus hard shoulders (source). Nevertheless, the plan approval order for 2x3 widening was passed on 30th April 2015 but can still be challenged (source).



MichiH said:


> *A98:* AD Hochrhein – AS Rheinfelden-Karsau 2.5km (March 2009 to 2020) – project – map
> 
> There were no construction works in progess since the first earth works lot was finished in May 2013. The construction of two 100m "Kaltluftdurchlass" bridges (one for each c/w) began today. They cost 4.5 million € and should be completed by late 2016. The detailed engineering of the 2nd earth works lot was completed and tendered too. Bids are on hand now. 1.2 million cubic meter have to be moved from fall 2015 to summer 2018.


A98 is to be completed by late 2020 (source).



MichiH said:


> December 2014: *A8 2x3 widening East of Karlsbad - West of Pfinztal viaduct* (?km; OSM; u/c since August 2009)
> 
> 
> 
> A8 source (traffic will use 2x2 lanes from tomorrow but 3rd lanes will be opened with final subsection in late 2015)
Click to expand...

The official A8 opening ceremony will be tomorrow (19th June). It's currently still 2x2.



ChrisZwolle said:


> A nice aerial photo of the new Bochum-West motorway interchange. This is where A40 and new A448 connect. A448 is an upgrade of the existing southern ring road of Bochum. The project will be officially inaugurated on 22 June.


Correct but is A40 already 2x3 in service since today . I've no idea when the Bochum ring road will be officially rededicated to A448 (it was announced to happen in 2017) but it's already signposted.


----------



## Heico-M

The A7 is closed between Hamburg-Schnelsen and interchange Hamburg-Nordwest from today, Friday, 10 PM until Monday morning, 5AM, i.e. for 55 hours. 

A bridge is going to be demolished in the course of the widening to 2x3 lanes.

AADT is like 112.000 on weekdays and 85.000 on weekends.

Huge delays and detours are expected. 

http://www.shz.de/hamburg/55-stunde...rrung-und-umleitung-in-hamburg-id9994006.html


----------



## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> A bridge is going to be demolished in the course of the widening to 2x3 lanes.


2x4 lanes .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Heico-M said:


> Huge delays and detours are expected.


It wouldn't be the first time that those 'huge delays' turn out to be much less than anticipated. Weekend traffic consists of much more discretionary trips which are less essential and can be rescheduled, postponed or simply canceled. 

TomTom currently shows a half hour delay in both direction, but not a city-wide gridlock.


----------



## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> 2x4 lanes .


Not between Schnelsen and Hamburg-Nordwest, afaik, this section is being widened from 2x2 to 2x3 lanes. 

The 2x4 lanes section starts south of Hamburg-Nordwest.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Sorry, you're right. I often mistake Schnelsen and Stellingen.


----------



## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> *B47:* AS Worms (A61) – AS Worms-West 2.0km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – July 1973; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> *B47:* AS Worms-West – AS Worms-South 2.3km (? to ?) – project – map (RP; plan approval: 1977 – canceled; Late 2007 – January 2011; complaints rejected)
> *B47:* AS Rosengarten-West – east of Rosengarten 3.6km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2009 – Mid 2015 (soon!))
> *B47:* east of Rosengarten – AS Bürstadt-East 5.2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – December 1971; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> *B47:* AS Bürstadt-East – west of AS Lorch-West 3.0km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2010 – still in progress; completion of entire project)


It will be interesting whether - once all that is complete - the 2+2 sections of the B47 will be unlimited speed like they are today (between AS Lorsch and AS Bensheim). And whether that will at some point in the distant future be all properly hooked up to the B9 in Worms - while the B9/B47 interconnection looks like it's really shaping up now, the _Südumgehung_ - second project above - doesn't solve the B9 southern Worms node that in my opinion needs to be reworked (it currently dumps most traffic into the city instead of to the ring.


----------



## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> It will be interesting whether - once all that is complete - the 2+2 sections of the B47 will be unlimited speed like they are today (between AS Lorsch and AS Bensheim).


I don't think so. It will feature hard shoulders in Hesse but not in Rhineland-Palatinate. Minimum the latter should be limited to 120kph. Hesse is open to unlimited sections so I guess the eastern part should be unlimited.


----------



## kato2k8

RLP has the B9 still unlimited in large sections... near that Worms interchange with B47 it's 120 km/h though.
A61 near the B47 interchange is also 130 km/h limited, wouldn't make much sense to have an unlimited speed connection between the two at those points.

Was mostly thinking of the section east of Worms though. The bridge and that interconnection mess on the eastern entrance of Worms will bring it down to 50-70 km/h as a stopover anyway.


----------



## Bender

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Nordrhein-Westfalen and Rheinland-Pfalz also get a small share (NRW only € 128 million!)
> 
> But the problem is on their side, they do not have many 'shovel ready' projects due to lack of planning capacity.


Now I wonder what would be the priorities in NRW. My daily commute is fairly OK, only real traffic I see under normal circumstances is in the city itself.

Of course A3 should be 2x5 lanes around Cologne and there are tons of really really bad interchanges.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The lack of high capacity & high speed interchanges in Germany is indeed notable. There are many Autobahn to Autobahn interchanges where you can drive only 40 km/h. They did construct a few flyovers or direct connectors here and there but they are still relatively rare. 

Major interchanges like the Frankfurter Kreuz, Kreuz Leverkusen, Kreuz Oberhausen, Bremer Kreuz, Hermsdorfer Kreuz, Kreuz Walldorf, Wiesbadener Kreuz or Kreuz Köln-West are still cloverleafs.

At least nearly all Autobahn-to-Autobahn cloverleafs have collector lanes, there aren't too many locations where traffic merges directly on the Autobahn from a cloverleaf loop.


----------



## MichiH

Bender said:


> Now I wonder what would be the priorities in NRW.


There are a lot of projects (Autobahn only):

A1 widening b/n Osnabrück (A30) and Kamen (A2)
A1 Rhine bridge Leverkusen (new bridge is quite urgent + widening)
A1 completion in Eifel
A3 2x4 widening
A40 Rhine bridge Duisburg (new bridge is quite urgent + widening)
A40 2x3 widening through Dortmund
A43 2x3 widening b/n A42 and A44/A448
A44 2x3 widening Dortmund - Kassel
A45 2x3 widening Dortmund - Gießen (including new bridges which is quite urgent)
A46 completion of 2x3 widening west of Sonnborn
A46 Hemer-Arnsberg
A52 2x3 widening Mönchengladbach - Neersen
A52 Gladback - Essen
A57 2x3 widening Moers - Cologne
A59 2x3/2x4 widening Cologne - Bonn
A445 completion
...

But here's the official priority list of the NRW Ministry of Transport which was updated last week: http://www.mbwsv.nrw.de/verkehr/strasse/Strassenplanung/index.php (press release).

The "new" NRW government decided in 2011 which projects should be planned "prior" (green) or should be stopped for the time being (red). Some projects were not assigned in 2011 but they did it now.

The stopped Autobahn projects are: new A44 Ruhralleetunnel Essen, new A46 Hemer-Arnsberg, new A52 b/n A42 and A40 Essen, A57 widening Cologne-Dormagen, A61 widening Wanlo-MG. I think A46 is not completely stopped.


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## kato2k8

ChrisZwolle said:


> Major interchanges like the Frankfurter Kreuz, Kreuz Leverkusen, Kreuz Oberhausen, Bremer Kreuz, Hermsdorfer Kreuz, Kreuz Walldorf, Wiesbadener Kreuz or Kreuz Köln-West are still cloverleafs.


Kreuz Walldorf is currently planned to be rebuilt, mostly because the A5 bridge over the A6 has to be replaced due to age. Peak load on the interchange is supposedly somewhere around 400,000 vehicles per day passing the interchange in total today (longtime average 350-370,000/day).

Rebuilt version, full options taken as currently planned (reoriented so North is up):









(far more detailed PDF here)

The flyovers are mostly planned to minimize the new A5 bridge. Even with that it's still an almost 40-meter wide bridge with 4+4 lanes with a 4m-wide central divider bridging over almost 90 meters with 12 parallel lanes of the A6 and the interchange...

Planned investment is around 140 million just for the interchange, construction likely around 2019. Additionally AS Walldorf about one km north will be expanded with a second eastern offramp and temporary widening to up to 4+5 lanes; the connection between AK Walldorf and AS Walldorf will be widened to 3+3 lanes.


----------



## MichiH

If memory serves.... green = reconstruction planned



ChrisZwolle said:


> Major interchanges like the Frankfurter Kreuz, Kreuz Leverkusen, Kreuz Oberhausen, Bremer Kreuz, Hermsdorfer Kreuz, Kreuz Walldorf, Wiesbadener Kreuz or Kreuz Köln-West are still cloverleafs.


----------



## Wolfgang16

*Luise-Kiesselbach-Tunnel*

Today opening party at Luise-Kiesselbach-Tunnel in Munich including Tunnel-Biergarten.






Open for traffic northbound on monday, southbound a few days later.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Kreuz Leverkusen


Leverkusen has now a major issue. The Rhine bridge of A1 is closed for vehicles over 3.5t (and it will remain so for some years). So all heavy trucks, coming on A1 westwards must change to A3 at Kreuz Leverkusen. That intersection was obviously not designed to carry a lot of trucks changing from A1 westwards to A3 southwards. 
And actually there are some constructing/maintenance works at Kreuz Leverkusen, so that this intersection is nowadays one of the most critical points of NRW motorway network.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> A59 2x3/2x4 widening Cologne - Bonn


2×4 between the intersections Bonn-Nordost (A59×A565) and St. Augustin West (A59×A560) would be quite crucial. It's only 3km.

A565, too, is always heavily congested. It has the highest AADT of all the 2×2 motorways of Germany, in the city center over 100,000. But it can not be widened there because the area is densely built. Possibly the intersection Bonn Nord (A565×A555) could be developed (it is usually congested), but it, too, is not easy.


----------



## Rohne

ChrisZwolle said:


> Major interchanges like the Frankfurter Kreuz,


at least it's a modified cloverleaf without the need to cross lanes anymore when changing directions. The problem they had when rebuilding the interchange during late 90s, was that they could not dig (high speed rail tunnels for ICE trains directly beneath) nor build much higher structures than before (approaching path of nearby Airport). But I still hope they will find a better solution anytime at least for the heavily used 2laned Kassel-Würzburg ramp where traffic has to break down to only 40km/h now. For a start I would be happy if they widened the areas of A3 and A5 directly adjacent to the interchange which are mostly lacking shoulders and could need at least one additional lane per direction to ease sorting.


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## kato2k8

Another one?

Personally I perceive Frankfurter Kreuz as rather oversized, although that may be because I have a 90k+ AADT highway in 2+2 and gridlock on commuter hours next door...


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## Kanadzie

Rohne said:


> at least it's a modified cloverleaf without the need to cross lanes anymore when changing directions. The problem they had when rebuilding the interchange during late 90s, was that they could not dig (high speed rail tunnels for ICE trains directly beneath) nor build much higher structures than before (approaching path of nearby Airport).


Ah, I always wondered why they made this design with the loops "unwound" with many small grade seperations instead of a more common directional ramp


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## Max BGF

Don´t like 4-lane-Autobahn. Kills Highspeed. Or are there any 4-lane sections without speed limit?


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## ChrisZwolle

Although the Frankfurter Kreuz is reportedly the busiest motorway interchange in Germany, I suppose the regional network of motorways and expressways helps reducing the amount of traffic that needs to turn off and use one of the loop ramps.


----------



## kato2k8

Max BGF said:


> Don´t like 4-lane-Autobahn. Kills Highspeed. Or are there any 4-lane sections without speed limit?


4+4 with no speed limit ? The entire A5 from Frankfurt to Darmstadt and the A3 from Frankfurt to Offenbach.

2+2 with no speed limit ? More the norm than the exception for BABs really, at least in the South, with a couple unlimited B roads on top...


----------



## 909

Max BGF said:


> Don´t like 4-lane-Autobahn. Kills Highspeed. Or are there any 4-lane sections without speed limit?


The A5 from Darmstadt to Frankfurt.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> 2×4 between the intersections Bonn-Nordost (A59×A565) and St. Augustin West (A59×A560) would be quite crucial. It's only 3km.


Correct. I read about the project two years ago. Six houses must be demolished. The plan approval procedure could begin but it was delayed due to the shortage of manpower. Costs: 35 million €, completion: >= 2019. Map (just that everyone knows where it is located).



Attus said:


> A565, too, is always heavily congested. It has the highest AADT of all the 2×2 motorways of Germany, in the city center over 100,000. But it can not be widened there because the area is densely built. Possibly the intersection Bonn Nord (A565×A555) could be developed (it is usually congested), but it, too, is not easy.


A565 is only planned to be widened to 2x3 b/n AD Bonn-Nordost (A59) and AS Bonn-Beuel. Westbound carriageway already features 3 lanes since November 2005. Map.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

909 said:


> The A5 from Darmstadt to Frankfurt.


^^
322 km/h on a public road. Legally only possible in Deutschland! :yes: 

May God bless the German Autobahns! :master:


----------



## Wolfgang16

*Opening of Luise-Kiesselbach-Tunnel*

The party yesterday was disappointing. At half time there was no food to get. I went home hungry hno:
It was very crowded, police controlled traffic:


01traffic by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

Waiting at the entrance:


02waiting by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

Entering tunnel:


03entrance by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


04sos by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


06sos by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

Light show:


05leucht by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


07radar by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


08schild by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


09waldfr by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


10garmisch by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

Tunnel-Biergarten:


11biergarten by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


12biergarten by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


13durchlass by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
Thank you for the pictures! kay:
It´s a really beautiful tunnel!

Are there any other large road construction projects going on in Munich right now?


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## ChrisZwolle

60 km/h is a permanent speed limit? I always find speed limits in German tunnels too low. Way too many Autobahn tunnels are limited at 80 km/h. It clogs traffic around trucks.


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## MichiH

^^ http://www.strassen.nrw.de/projekte/a-bei-lev/faq.html#abschnitt3

"Windmill or Maltese variant... No favorite variant at the moment because feasibility study is not yet completed... Preliminary results should be available in 1st half of 2015..."


----------



## Des

I took a closer look at the new Luise Kiesselbach tunnel in Munich today. Part of the Mittelerring and a building site for 6 years. It should bring relief to the South-West side of Munich. 

I drove this stretch regularly during the building period and it was always jammed except in the late evening and night. 

1. My journey starts on the Eastern side of the Isar. Passing the Brudermuhltunnel first.










2. Crossing the Isar










3. Brudermuhltunnel (60 km/h)










4. B11 Intersection just before the tunnel. This jam was also very common during construction time.










5. Until Monday morning all traffic had to go right here.










6. Now the tunnel is open! 50 km/h










7. Heckenstallertunnel










8. Right lane is traffic coming from the Passauerstrasse










9. First set of speed cameras










10. To go to A95 keep right










11. Pedestrian bridge near the Sappelstrasse










12. Exit for A95 - MR West is not connected to A95 by tunnel - this means all traffic has to go above ground to the Luise Kiesselbach platz and turn left to the A95. This will remain a bottleneck. It does taper into 2 lanes going up but the traffic lights can't handle the traffic at the moment hopefully it will get better with the final ground level setup. 










13. Traffic cues a few hundred meters back into the tunnel










14. Coming up to Luise Kiesselbach platz










15. Left for A95, Straight for MR tunnel Northbound










16. I went left to A95 and this is on the way back at the end of A95 coming from Starnberg










17. End of A95










18. Exit right for local traffic and center via Albert-Rosshaupterstrasse. Straight for MR-Sud and MR-Nord.










19. 8%! 30 km/h - which I hope is temporary, from unlimited autobahn to 30 km/h in a few kilometers...










20. Left for MR-Nord and right for MR-Sud










21. 










22. Another set of speed cameras in the 30 km/h corner coming from A95 going to MR-Sud - they will make a lot of money here.










23. Merging onto MR-Sud










24. In the future the right lane will continue to the next exit giving merging traffic a bit more time to merge. Not sure when it will open though.










25. Exit Passauerstrasse is still closed.










26. Tunnel eastbound 40km/h. Not sure why its only 40 here while its 50 on the other side. And another set of speed cameras.










Overall traffic westbound on MR-Sud is still very bad. The tunnel didn't really raise capacity but merely moved the problem from above ground to below ground. 

The MR-Sud to A95 connection is rubbish, would have been nice to have a free-flow tunnel as well but I assume it was too expensive as they had to make another tube and dig even deeper. 

Now its two more years until everything on street level is hopefully finished too. Traffic wise there is not that much hope on a major improvement but for the people that live in the area its a big improvement.


----------



## Koesj

MichiH said:


> ^^ http://www.strassen.nrw.de/projekte/a-bei-lev/faq.html#abschnitt3
> 
> "Windmill or Maltese variant... No favorite variant at the moment because feasibility study is not yet completed... Preliminary results should be available in 1st half of 2015..."


Yeah I saw the Strassen.NRW thingy as well but IIRC an RP or KSTA article had something about the 'windmill' (turbine, rather) variant being bevorzugt.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice report on the tunnels in München. 

It gives the feeling that this huge project was underdesigned from the start though. I hope these speed limits are dynamic (based on traffic conditions) instead of fixed.


----------



## Des

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice report on the tunnels in München.
> 
> It gives the feeling that this huge project was underdesigned from the start though. I hope these speed limits are dynamic (based on traffic conditions) instead of fixed.


Thanks! It seems the only way the politicians can find enough support for these tunnel projects is if they keep the setup as much as possible as it is. Adding additional lanes are a no-go so apart from getting rid the delays from traffic lights the risk of congestion is still the same as before. 

Re speed limits; I think they just set them to what they are now for the time being until they fix some issues and open the exit at Passauerstrasse. I hope after that they are raised. Especially the 30 km/h bit is very very slow and there were no other cars going there besides me so I doubt its dynamic.


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## MichiH

^^ I think the only real traffic flow improvement would be A99 southern ring between A96 and A8 (or minimum A96-A95).


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## Des

MichiH said:


> ^^ I think the only real traffic flow improvement would be A99 southern ring between A96 and A8 (or minimum A96-A95).


Yes but that will probably not be ready before 2030.


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## MichiH

^^ It's not planned at all. It's not contained in any demand plan. It won't be built for the time being. Almost the entire existing A99 (west, north, east) is planned to get 2 additional lanes (2x4 or 2x3 lanes).


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## Des

MichiH said:


> ^^ It's not planned at all. It's not contained in any demand plan. It won't be built for the time being. Almost the entire existing A99 (west, north, east) is planned to get 2 additional lanes (2x4 or 2x3 lanes).


They need to fix the A8/A99 intersection South of Munich too. Ideally changing the A99-East from exit on the right to three lanes main connection on the left and the other directions; A8 and A99-West as new exit that should get rid of a lot of the jams there.


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## MichiH

^^ I think there's no plan to change it. But it's planned to widen A8 and A99 to 2x4 lanes. That would be an opportunity to reconstruct the interchange too.... I guess 2030+ though....


----------



## Isek

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice report on the tunnels in München.
> 
> It gives the feeling that this huge project was underdesigned from the start though. I hope these speed limits are dynamic (based on traffic conditions) instead of fixed.


Well. I think Munich stands for a good example how to renew infrastrcture but not to increase capacity significantly. A real German desease!! Just to pick out some more massive planning mistakes in and around Munich:

1) Allacher Tunnel 
2) Aubinger Tunnel
3) Petuel Tunnel
4) Richard Strauss Tunnel
5) A 99 as a whole
6) 2R as a whole
....


The new 2R Tunnels do have the same capacity as the tunnels finished for the olympic games 1972!!! 

A 2x2 beltway motorway (A99 west) for an urban area of 3 million stressed heavily by long distance traffic is more or less unique in the world!

All projects are planned at a very very small capacity considering Munich as the fastest growing major German city situated at a bottle neck for long distance routes in central Europe.


----------



## Des

Isek said:


> Well. I think Munich stands for a good example how to renew infrastrcture but not to increase capacity significantly. A real German desease!! Just to pick out some more massive planning mistakes in and around Munich:
> 
> 1) Allacher Tunnel
> 2) Aubinger Tunnel
> 3) Petuel Tunnel
> 4) Richard Strauss Tunnel
> 5) A 99 as a whole
> 6) 2R as a whole
> ....
> 
> 
> The new 2R Tunnels do have the same capacity as the tunnels finished for the olympic games 1972!!!
> 
> A 2x2 beltway motorway (A99 west) for an urban area of 3 million stressed heavily by long distance traffic is more or less unique in the world!
> 
> All projects are planned at a very very small capacity considering Munich as the fastest growing major German city situated at a bottle neck for long distance routes in central Europe.


No ambition politicians meets NIMBY meets environmental activist = expensive compromise.

In The Netherlands some ambitious politicians found a way to shut the NIMBYs and activists up for the greater economic good and got things done quickly and well. Half the countries highways were widened or reconstructed in the last decade. If only Germany could do the same...


----------



## Isek

I guess if Munich would be a Dutch city the A99 would be from 2×4 to 2x5, the A9 2x6 and the B2R 2×3 to 2x4! 

Just to go back to reality: Just give me two projects and would be happy: The A99 closing and the connection between the A92 and B2R!


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I still don't like E233. It is usually better on Sundays as there are fewer trucks, but there were still enough trucks to make it an annoying drive, with traffic going from 60 to 100 to 60 all the time. But it is significantly shorter than the Autobahn route via Leer & Oldenburg.


I drove E233 from A1 to A31 last Sunday evening. Less trucks but a long queue of cars. I stopped about in the middle b/n A1 and A31. Afterwards, there was no queue but just some cars driving ~90km/h.

There's an official statement of the Federal Government (Bundesregierung) about E233 planning progress: > click <. The first (out of 7) plan approval procecures should begin in early 2016. The plan approval order could be passed in late 2017. Costs: 123.3 million €. Total costs of the entire project: 719.1 million € for 76.7km, 9.4 million €/km. The benefit-cost ratio is 4.6. Maximum AADT truck share is 34%.


----------



## MichiH

*A94 Munich - Passau*



MichiH said:


> The plan approval procedure for the *Malching - Kirchham* section (6.0km) started in 2006 (OSM). It was officically canceled in March 2013, and a new procedure was started. A construction period of 5 years was announced (about 60 million €).
> The plan approval procedure for the last section from *Kirchham to AD Pocking* was started in June 2012 (OSM). The construction period was declared to 3 years (12.5km; about 160 million €).


The Federal Minister of Transport, Mr. Dobrindt, announced that the Malching-Kirchham plan approval order should be passed in August 2015. If it won't be challenged the planning should be legal by the end of 2015 and he will immediately release the 104 million € because they are available by the 2016 budget (Bundeshaushalt). Source.

btw: The estimated costs were 81 million € in March 2015, the announced construction begin was 2016. Kirchham-Pocking costs were 155 million € and the announced construction begin late 2016. Source.


Note: Pastetten - Heldenstein is another section:

*A94:* AS Dorfen – AS Heldenstein 14.9km (2016 to 2019) – project – map (BY; plan approval: September 1998 – November 2011; complaints withdrawn; PPP tender procedure in progress)


PS: I'll post more info about German road projects tomorrow (about construction delays, estimated openings and groundbreakings)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> If it won't be challenged the planning should be legal by the end of 2015 and he will immediately release the 104 million € because they are available by the 2016 budget (Bundeshaushalt).


What happens if it is delayed to 2017? Will it lose the funding planned for 2016?

In the Netherlands we have an infrastructure fund. This means that once a project has cleared all legal hurdles, the entire funding becomes available, regardless of when or how fast it is spent. So it is not dependent on the fluctuations of the annual budget cycle.

I think this is somewhat comparable to how PPP projects are funded. You'll notice that large (longer distance) PPP projects are completed much faster than conventionally funded projects which are often partitioned in a lot of small segments, each with their own schedule.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> What happens if it is delayed to 2017? Will it lose the funding planned for 2016?


The article just says "Bundeshaushalt". I added 2016 (--> 2016 budget) because the 2016 Bundeshaushalt is the only valid Bundeshaushalt.......



ChrisZwolle said:


> In the Netherlands we have an infrastructure fund. This means that once a project has cleared all legal hurdles, the entire funding becomes available, regardless of when or how fast it is spent. So it is not dependent on the fluctuations of the annual budget cycle.


I've absolute no idea how it works in Germany. It's an intransparent procedure. Schleswig-Holstein complaint (source) that they got no money by the recent funding announcement but Mr. Dobrindt said, they need building permit first. Nevertheless, the project, e.g. A21, B202, B207, would be funded anyway (source). Schleswig-Holstein complaint and asked for compensation of the initial funding for A7 PPP project (they said it's a "hoher zweistelliger Millionenbetrag" = "high double digit millions") and got 144 million € now :nuts:.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I think this is somewhat comparable to how PPP projects are funded. You'll notice that large (longer distance) PPP projects are completed much faster than conventionally funded projects which are often partitioned in a lot of small segments, each with their own schedule.


Dunno. I know that VDE projects (Verkehrsprojekte Deutsche Einheit = Transportation projects German Unity) have a special status, that means projects like A143 and A44 are already listed in the budget for years while they had/have no building permit.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There is also the so-called "Investitionsrahmenplan" (the current one is the IRP 2011-2015). Let's translate it "Investment master plan". It's a list of transportation projects (road, railway and waterway) containing a lot of projects which should be funded next if they have or will get building permit. Let's call it a pool of candidates to be funded next (by the annual budget). I read in an official document that the IRP is definitely NOT a funding plan though!

It's just intransparent...............


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There was an IRP 2011-2015. I wonder how many projects in that list are actually completed or in very advanced construction stage now. The typical complaint about the Bundesverkehrswegeplan is that about half of all urgent projects listed in 2003 are still not under construction today.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> There was an IRP 2011-2015. I wonder how many projects in that list are actually completed or in very advanced construction stage now.


The *IRP 2011-15* was relased in March 2012. I checked my list for the actual status.

Note: I split my list into sections, that's why the total number of projects is higher than in the official list.

*Category B* (ongoing projects / Laufende Vorhaben):
200 sections completed
53 sections u/c
8 sections not u/c (B97 Cottbus bypass (2 sections), A6 Neckarbrücke Heilbronn, A94 Malching-Kirchham, A66 Riederwaldtunnel, A44 Ratingen-Heiligenhaus, B7 Altenburg-Frohburg and B173 Flöha bypass 2nd section)

*Category C* (urgent projects for IRP period / Prioritäre Vorhaben im IRP-Zeitraum):
21 sections completed
70 sections u/c
70 sections funded
32 sections: plan approval order but not funded
16 sections: plan approval order but challenged
54 sections: plan approval procedure
11 sections < plan approval procedure

There's also category D, additional projects.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The typical complaint about the Bundesverkehrswegeplan is that about half of all urgent projects listed in 2003 are still not under construction today.


It's less than 50%.


----------



## Shenkey

Munich has to finish it's ring road, it would seriously decrease amount of cars on western part of Mittelerring.


----------



## bavarian urbanist

Shenkey said:


> Munich has to finish it's ring road, it would seriously decrease amount of cars on western part of Mittelerring.


I disagree. If you build it, they'll come, or as we say in Germany: "Who sows roads will harvest traffic"(Wer Straßen sät wird Verkehr ernten) 
2 lanes per direction is usually just enough.


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## Des

bavarian urbanist said:


> I disagree. If you build it, they'll come, or as we say in Germany: "Who sows roads will harvest traffic"(Wer Straßen sät wird Verkehr ernten) 2 lanes per direction is usually just enough.


The cars are there anyway - they are just driving on alternative routes or stuck in traffic. 

Roads do not create traffic, people do. And with increasing number of citizens in and around Munich plus growing transit traffic on the ring the infrastructure should be expanded.


----------



## Attus

Des said:


> Roads do not create traffic, people do.


It is literally true, but actually roads may create traffic in an indirect way, and in a city like Munich they surely do.



> The cars are there anyway


No, not necesserily.
People may decide:
- look for a job nearby which is accessible by bike or on foot
- look for a job which is best accessible by car 
- take the public transport.
In and around Munich a vast majority of adult people has a car (it is one of the wealthiest regions of Europe) but many people don't use it for daily commuting but use the public transport or a bicyle instead, or go on foot. 
The quality of infrastructure may influence people's decisions about transport mode primarily (shall I go this morning by train or by car?) and secondarily (shall I take a job in a certain area in or near to the city?)

Modal share in Munich (only inside the city itself):
On foot: 27%
Bike: 17%
Public transport: 23%
Car (driver or passanger): 33%
Minor changes, 1-2% up or down, happen every year, the basic proportions have not changed in the recent ten years.


----------



## hammersklavier

bavarian urbanist said:


> I disagree. If you build it, they'll come, or as we say in Germany: "Who sows roads will harvest traffic"(Wer Straßen sät wird Verkehr ernten)
> 2 lanes per direction is usually just enough.


I think I need to start a list: German Infrastructure Proverbs. :lol:


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## MichiH

Des said:


> Roads do not create traffic, people do.


Induced traffic


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 'induced demand' theory is typically exaggerated and is a not an argument not to expand or build new motorways.

By far the largest increase of traffic is due to population / economic growth and changes in routing. For instance, nearly all traffic on a southwestern leg of A99 would come from existing roads and thus would relieve those roads. As A99 is not a route into the city center, a modal shift from public transport is negligible, because the modal share of public transport on circumferential or bypass trips like A99 is marginal.

A 2014 study (English) by the Institute of Mobility in the Netherlands found that only 1/8th of the traffic growth after a motorway expansion project was due to 'induced demand', i.e. new trips that would have otherwise not been made. Approximately 0% of those new trips came from public transport.


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## Kanadzie

^^ is induced demand even a problem ? Surely if the road is improved and people drive, that situation is better than the situation that existed before (people _wanted _to drive, but didn't because the roads were bad)


----------



## verreme

bavarian urbanist said:


> I disagree. If you build it, they'll come, or as we say in Germany: "Who sows roads will harvest traffic"(Wer Straßen sät wird Verkehr ernten)
> 2 lanes per direction is usually just enough.


That may be a valid point when discussing some road projects. But come on, a city the size of Munich not having a full ringroad is just unacceptable in such a developed country. There may be congestion in peak hours, but just think about how many non-peak hour trips could benefit from that.


----------



## Turf

The induced demand theory has long been popular in The Netherlands. Still some people that believe in them. Though the numbers prove them wrong. I rarely hear it anymore.
I travel a lot in Germany and hope they start massive projects soon (and finish them much faster also). 
What I am wondering, what changed the situation in the Netherlands?
What should it take for such a policy change to be made with our neighbouring friends?
There should be plenty of money in DE and these kinds of investment increases economic growth I would suppose. So in the long run it might even pay back.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 'induced demand' theory is typically exaggerated and is a not an argument not to expand or build new motorways.
> A 2014 study (English) by the Institute of Mobility in the Netherlands found that only 1/8th of the traffic growth


I think 1/8 is a lot! I didn't expect such a hugh increase due to 'induced traffic'. Thus I cannot agree that the argument is exaggerated because I rarly read about this argument.



Kanadzie said:


> ^^ is induced demand even a problem ? Surely if the road is improved and people drive, that situation is better than the situation that existed before (people _wanted _to drive, but didn't because the roads were bad)


Yes, more traffic = more air pollution etc. It's bad for the nature. Well, that's what conservationists say. I think it's not bad because a new road typically reduces air pollution if congestions are dissolved.

I think new roads connect people. It's easier to visit different towns, different regions or different countries. That's positive especially considering that European countries were used to wage a war with each other.

On the other hand, induced traffic also means: You look for a new job. You have to decide what are your limits, e.g. if driving 30 minutes (one way) from home to the plant/office is ok, or 60 minutes or even 90 minutes etcetera.
For instance, if one lives 100km out of town and driving to a company/office in the city takes 2 hours one way due to daily congestion, one would not apply for a job there without considering to move closer to the city. If a perfect motorway would be build and the daily travel time would just be 1 hour.... The company location could be within the personal limit and one could decide to apply for a job without moving there. That would result in induced traffic.

It's the same for shopping, sightseeing etc. Everyone has limits what's ok for a trip / commuting etcetera. New roads provide opportunities. I see the positive things (connecting people etcetera), others see the negative things ("Who sows roads will harvest traffic").


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> I think 1/8 is a lot! I didn't expect such a hugh increase due to 'induced traffic'. Thus I cannot agree that the argument is exaggerated and I rarly read about this argument.


1/8th of _traffic growth_. That's pretty small, for example in a not-so-unlikely scenario of 80,000 vehicles per day on 2x2 lanes with a growth of 20% after widening to 2x3 lanes over 10 years, this means the traffic growth due to 'induced demand' is 1/8th of 20% of 80,000 = 1,280 vehicles per day. 

So that means out of 96,000 vehicles per day, only 1,280 is due to 'induced demand'. Whether a motorway carries 96,000 or 94,720 vehicles per day after widening to 2x3 lanes is pretty irrelevant and is more or less within the margin of error.


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## MichiH

^^ Of course, but it's more than I expected and I really read about it rare.


----------



## MichiH

*News*

*A44:* AK Ratingen-East (A3) – AS Heiligenhaus 4.0km (Summer 2015 to 2020) – project – map (NW; plan approval: 1991 – February 2007; additional approval: ? – February 2012; ? – 2016 (drainage); complaints rejected; funded)
*A44:* AS Heiligenhaus – AS Heiligenhaus-Hetterscheidt 4.9km (April 2010 to 2017) – project – map

The eastern section is announced to be completed by Mid 2017, the western section is announced to be completed by 2018 now. Source.


*B15n:* AS Ergoldsbach – AS Essenbach (A92) 9.0km (August 2013 to 2018) – project – map

Delayed to 2019 (it was already announced in March 2014 that it's planned to be completed by 2018/19). Source.


*B29:* east of Böbingen – west of Essingen 6.9km (July 2015 to 2018) – project – map (BW; plan approval: October 1998 – September 1999; funded)

The groundbreaking ceremony took place on Monday, see press release, press release no.2 or news article. Only the news article reports about the estimated construction time of 3 years. The total cost of the 2x2 expressway is 67 million €. Thus plan approval orders are only valid for 10 years (but could be extended by 5 years), a bridge for a rural road was already build 5 years ago.

The neighboring section is funded meanwhile:

*B29:* west of Essingen – west of Aalen 3.5km (2016? to ?) – ? – map


*B266:* AS Bad Neuenahr (A573) – AS Bad Neuenahr-East 1.8km (February 2009 to Fall 2016) – project – map

Delayed to Mid 2017 (it was originally planned to be opened by late 2014). Source (I'm not authorized to read the article, so I don't know the delay reason).


More news tomorrow.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *2016 invest*
> 
> *project list* (groundbreaking 2016)
> 
> It contains almost all projects with building permit!


I'd like to update my list:



MichiH said:


> I created a list of future motorway and expressway projects with approval (however, some are still challenged, some are only on the list to complete the entire project). That means, these projects are funded or could(!) be the candidates to be funded "soon" (please refer to the link in my signature to get a list of all u/c projects and legend):
> 
> *A14:*_ AS Grabow – AS Groß Warnow 9.8km (June 2015 to Late 2017) – ? – map (MV; plan approval: 2011 – November 12; funded)_


u/c



MichiH said:


> *A21:* north of Nettelsee – north of AS Nettelsee ~ 2km (? to ?) – project – map (SH; plan approval: April 2008 – February 2011; funded)
> 
> *A44:* AK Ratingen-East (A3) – AS Heiligenhaus 4.0km (Summer 2015 to 2018) – project – map (NW; plan approval: 1991 – February 2007; additional approval: ? – February 2012; ? – 2016 (drainage); complaints rejected; funded)


To be completed by 2018 instead of 2020



MichiH said:


> *A44:* AD Kassel-East (A7) – AS Helsa-East 11.3km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: Mid 2006 – still in progress; completion of entire project)
> *A44:* AS Waldkappel – Hoheneiche 7.2km (Fall 2015 to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: September 2002 – October 2011; complaints rejected; funded)
> *A44:* Hocheneiche – AS Sontra-West 5.4km (2016? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: April 2006 – January 2012; complaints withdrawn; funded)




The latter is funded now!




MichiH said:


> *A44:* AS Sontra-West – AS Sontra-Ost 10.8km (2017 to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: July 2012 – September 2013)
> *A44:* AS Sontra-Ost – AD Wommen (A4) 6.0km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2011 – February 2013; complaints withdrawn)
> 
> *A49:* AS Schwalmstadt – AS Stadtallendorf-North 13.3km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – January 2012; complaints withdrawn; PPP planned)
> *A49:* AS Stadtallendorf-North – AD Ohmtal (A5) 17.4km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – May 2012; complaints pending; PPP planned)


Both A49 sections are planned to be built as PPP project.



MichiH said:


> *A60:* east of AS Winterspelt – north of AS Prüm 18.2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – March 1979; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> 
> *A62:* south of AS Bann – south of AS Weselberg 9.3km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – July 1983; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> *A62:* Schwarzbach viaduct – AS Pirmasens 6.0km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – July 1983; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> 
> *A64:* east of AS Trier – north of Biewertal viaduct 0.9km (? to ?) – project – map (RP; plan approval: ? – 1977; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> 
> *A66:* AD Erlenbruch (A661) – AS Frankfurt-Bergen-Enkheim 2.6km (2016 to 2022) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – February 2007; additional approval: ? – September 2009; official groundbreaking ceremony took place on 23rd September 2009; neighboring A661 u/c)
> 
> *A72:* AS Rötha – AK Leipzig (A38) 7.2km (2015/16 to 2020) – project – map (SN; plan approval: Early 2011 – December 2013; funded)


No update!



MichiH said:


> *A94:* AS Dorfen – AS Heldenstein 14.9km (2016 to 2019) – project – map (BY; plan approval: September 1998 – November 2011; complaints withdrawn; PPP tender procedure in progress)


The latter is already u/c.



MichiH said:


> *A281:* AS Bremen-Gröpelingen – AS Bremen-Seehausen 4.9km (? to ?) – project – map (HB; plan approval: ? – June 2010; compensation money negotiation in progress; PPP?)
> *A281:* south of AS Bremen-Airportstadt – AS Bremen-Kattenturm 2.2km (2018 to 2021) – project – map (HB; plan approval: ? – April 2009; additional approval: May 2015 – still in progress (Late 2016); completion of entire project)
> 
> *A524:* west of AS Duisburg-Huckingen – west of AK Duisburg-South (A59) 0.8km (Fall 2015 to 2018) – ? – map (NW; plan approval: ? – December 2008; funded)
> 
> 
> *B2:* south of AS Eschenlohe – AS Oberau-North 3.8km (? to ?) – project – map (BY; plan approval: ? – still in progress; completion of entire project)
> *B2:* AS Oberau-North – AS Oberau-South 4.2km (September 2015 to 2021) – project – map (BY; plan approval: ? – February 2010; funded)


No update!



MichiH said:


> *B10:* AS Godramstein – AS Landau-North (A65) 4.1km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (RP; plan approval: ? – September 2010; complaints rejected)


Complaints rejected.



MichiH said:


> *B14:* AS Backnang-West – AS Waldrems 5.7km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – November 2005; new Backnang-Center i/c already u/c)
> *B14:* AS Waldrems – AS Nellmersbach 1.9km (2016? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – November 2005; funded)


The latter is funded now!



MichiH said:


> *B27:* AS Donaueschingen – AS Hüfingen 4.1km (Spring 2016 to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – September 2013; funded)


Funded! Construction will begin spring 2016.



MichiH said:


> _*B29:* east of Böbingen – west of Essingen 6.9km (July 2015 to 2018) – project – map (BW; plan approval: October 1998 – September 1999; funded)_
> *B29:* west of Essingen – west of Aalen 3.5km (2016? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – December 2002; approval didn't expire b/c a bridge is u/c; funded)


First one u/c, 2nd one funded!



MichiH said:


> *B31:* Gauchachtal viaduct Döggingen 1.7km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 1991; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> 
> *B33:* AS Allensbach-West – Waldsiedlung 9.0km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 2007; additional approval: October 2014 – still in progress (safety reasons); entire project split into 6 sections (1 u/c, 1 completed))


2 additional sections are funded now!

*B33:* AS Allensbach-West – AS Allensbach-Center 3.6km (2015? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 2007; additional approval: October 2014 – still in progress (safety reasons); entire project split into 6 sections (1 u/c, 1 completed); funded)
*B33:* AS Allensbach-Center – AS Allensbach-East 2.0km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 2007; additional approval: October 2014 – still in progress (safety reasons); entire project split into 6 sections (1 u/c, 1 completed))
*B33:* AS Allensbach-East – Hegne 2.0km (? to ?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 2007;; entire project split into 6 sections (1 u/c, 1 completed))
*B33:* Hegne – Waldsiedlung 1.4km (>= 2017 to 2020?) – ? – map (BW; plan approval: ? – July 2007;; entire project split into 6 sections (1 u/c, 1 completed); funded)




MichiH said:


> *B47:* AS Worms (A61) – AS Worms-West 2.0km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (RP; plan approval: ? – July 1973; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> *B47:* AS Worms-West – AS Worms-South 2.3km (? to ?) – project – map (RP; plan approval: 1977 – canceled; Late 2007 – January 2011; complaints rejected; funded)




The latter is funded now!




MichiH said:


> *B47:* AS Rosengarten-West – east of Rosengarten 3.6km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2009 – Mid 2015 (soon!))
> *B47:* east of Rosengarten – AS Bürstadt-East 5.2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – December 1971; approval didn't expire b/c 1st c/w is build)
> *B47:* AS Bürstadt-East – west of AS Lorch-West 3.0km (2016? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: December 2010 – still in progress; completion of entire project)
> 
> *B49:* Löhnberg – Biskirchen 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: procedure should begin "soon"; completion of entire project)
> *B49:* Biskirchen – Tiefenbach 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – September 2013)
> *B49:* Tiefenbach – Leun 2.1km (2016? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – Late 2013; funded)




The latter is funded now!




MichiH said:


> *B49:* Leun – Solms 4.5km (? to ?) – project – map (HE; plan approval: ? – still in progress (2015); completion of entire project)
> 
> *B51:*_ AS Münster-Warendorfer Straße (B481) – AS Münster-Wolbecker Straße 2.7km (June 2015 to 2018) – ? – map (NW; plan approval: December 2005 – September 2011; funded)_


The latter is u/c now!



MichiH said:


> *B75:* AS Hamburg-Georgswerder – AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-Süd (A26) 4.8km (? to ?) [rededication A252/A253: 6.0km] – project – map (HH; plan approval: Early 2011 – June 2013; complaints pending)
> 
> *B247:* AS Mühlhausen/Weinbergen (B249) – AS Großengottern-West ~ 4km (? to ?) – ? – map (TH; plan approval: ? – November 2011; PPP planned)
> *B247:* AS Großengottern-West – AS Schönstedt-East ~ 7km (? to ?) – ? – map (TH; plan approval: ? – February 2012; complaints rejected; PPP planned)


B247 is planned to be built as PPP project.



MichiH said:


> *B303:* AS Schirnding-West – DE/CZ border 4.3km (? to ?) – project – map (BY; plan approval: ? – September 2008)


----------



## Attus

Induced traffic exists and every one that denies it is a fool. 
However, how big it is, may differ from place to place. In densely built urban areas it may have more importance.
Especially in secondary effects. What I mean: now in most German cities the majority of offices are in the city centers. City centers are densely built, no free place for wide roads, the modal share of public transport and bicycle are rather high, that of car is pretty low. 
If new roads will be built or existing roads will be upgraded so that they are no more congested on a daily basis, even areas where public transport can not have importance and distances are too long for biking can be attractive for building offices and create jobs, or move jobs from the crowded city centers. As an effect of that many people will drive a car every day instead of public transport or bicycle. Not because they think roads are now better then trains/bike but because their new job is located in a place where car is definitely the best option. 
That's what happened in several Dutch cities decades ago, happens nowadays for example in and around Budapest.
I'm 100% sure if the now missing southwestern section of A99 were built, a lot of new car traffic would come to that road. No people who now use the train between Taufkirchen and Pasing (although it's a very attractive train connection) but people that commute now from Taufkirchen to the center because they don't want to commute to Pasing because of the long travelling time, but could take a job in Pasing and commute by car on the new A99 if it existed. 

BUT I do NOT mean any way that A99 should not be built, or any existing road in and around Munich should not be upgraded because of induced traffic!!


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## MichiH

Attus said:


> BUT I do NOT mean any way that A99 should not be built, or any existing road in and around Munich should not be upgraded because of induced traffic!!


A map of Bavaria (March 2013 version) shows the state's proposal for the new federal demand plan (BVWP 2015).

Legend:
*new road (project is in current demand plan BVWP 2003)
new road (new for BVWP 2015)
widening (project is in current demand plan BVWP 2003)
widening (new for BVWP 2015)

*Munich area is quite green (but almost no new roads are planned there!).*
*

btw: Bavarian project list (March 2013 version) and current Federal project list (September 2014 version); 2+1 widening projects are not contained in the BVWP!


----------



## MichiH

*News*

*A21:* north of AS Nettelsee – south of Nettelsee 2km (February 2012 to Late 2017) – project – map

The section has a length of 2.1km and it's delayed because of the required posts. The estimated completion is 1st half of 2018, that means Mid 2018. Please refer to a previous post and to a recent press release.


*A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – AS Itzehoe-South 4.5km (January 2007 to Late 2015) – project – map

The Stör bridge will be opened in October 2015 (~2.5km) and the remaining section will be opened in June 2016 (~2.0km). The opening ceremony of the Stör bridge will be on 24th October 2015. Please refer to a news article or to the project page.

==>

*A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – south of Stör bridge 2.5km (January 2007 to 24th October 2015) – project – map
*A23:* south of Stör bridge – AS Itzehoe-South 2.0km (2010 to June 2016) – project – map




MichiH said:


> *A71:* Etzleben – AS Sömmerda-East 11.4km (June 2010 to Late August 2015) – project – map
> 
> The opening will be in late August (or maybe early September). Source.


It is reported to be opened in September now........ Please refer to a news article.


*A94:* AS Pastetten – AS Dorfen 17.4km (April 2012 to 2019) – project – map
*A94:* AS Dorfen – AS Heldenstein 14.9km (2016 to 2019) – project – map

The construction of both sections is planned as PPP project. The Lappachtalbrücke (Lappach viaduct) is already u/c. It's in the western section and it's a "big" building. That's why I declared the section u/c. According to a press release from July 2013, two bridges in the eastern section were also built as "preliminary works". Due to the clear declaration as "preliminary works" and due to the fact that they are just two little bridges (rural roads which cross the future A94), I didn't declare the section u/c.

According to a recent news article and satellite images, more works have been done there. Clearance works and 9 bridges in total are u/c (minimum 3 in the eastern section). These works are funded by the federal budget. The PPP contract should be signed in fall 2015 and works should begin in early 2016 (at the latest in March 2016) so that the new Autobahn could be opened in late 2019.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – AS Itzehoe-South 4.5km (January 2007 to Late 2015) – project – map
> 
> The Stör bridge will be opened in October 2015 (~2.5km) and the remaining section will be opened in June 2016 (~2.0km). The opening ceremony of the Stör bridge will be on 24th October 2015. Please refer to a news article or to the project page.
> 
> ==>
> 
> *A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – south of Stör bridge 2.5km (January 2007 to 24th October 2015) – project – map
> *A23:* south of Stör bridge – AS Itzehoe-South 2.0km (2010 to June 2016) – project – map


It was planned to open the entire section by late 2015 but the construction south of the Stör bridge is a separate tender procedure. A candidate challenged the award of the contract to another company. The complaint procedure took about 6 month. That's the reason of the delay hno:.


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## ChrisZwolle

Geez, 9.5 years for a bridge replacement hno:


----------



## Heico-M

cinxxx said:


> My parents came from Romania to visit. They also drove to Saarland.
> They were shocked by the number of Baustellen, Staus and everything. Nothing like that in Hungary or Austria...


And then people say the German streets were left to decay. hno:
As for motorways, that is not true (while for some local roads , you'd need a Jeep)



cinxxx said:


> ... and yes, when they finish the whole stretch the first part they made will be old and will need renovation


Absolutely, but this is simply due to the length of the network. Germany is a big country, after all. There will always be roadworks.


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## cinxxx

I agree, but so is France, Italy, Spain ☺


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## Heico-M

cinxxx said:


> I agree, but so is France, Italy, Spain ☺


True. And I hope they have roadworks, too. Otherwise they won't have any motorways any more at some point.


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## Attus

cinxxx said:


> I agree, but so is France, Italy, Spain ☺


No.
France has an area almost twice as large as Germany (640 / 357 thousand sq. km) but slightliy less population (66 / 81 M). Population density is twice as large in Germany than in France (226 / 116 ppl/sq.km). The more dense the people live, the more motorway is needed, and the busier those motoways will be. It's quite an important factor.


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## cinxxx

^^I was referring to the fact that France is also a big country, you can't contradict that.
And it also has many km of roads. I was comparing the number of Baustellen/km.

But if you bring up density, than NL is big, and clearly doesn't have this much Baustellen/km


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove 6,600 kilometers through France and Spain in June. I passed through 4 roadworks. If you would drive such a distance through Germany, you would pass through 150 roadworks (this summer there were 300+ road works on 12500 km of Autobahn).

If you look at the sheer amount of road works compared to other countries it appears as if Germany has an incredible maintenance backlog they cannot solve. Germany has had a huge amount of road works for years. And it will continue for years to come considering the amount of bridges that need to be demolished and reconstructed.

If you compare the duration of road works, you will notice they take significantly longer in Germany than in the Netherlands, France or Poland. For instance, in Nordrhein-Westfalen, there are 32 - 35 long-term Baustellen throughout this year's construction season. In similarly sized Netherlands (area, population and motorway length) there are only 5 or 6 long-term road works. Most maintenance and renovation is done with night work and weekend closures.


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## Autostädter

Could it have to do with the speed limits? Maybe in other countries the tarmac lasts longer due to speed limits and in Germany it has to be renewed more often to be fit for higher speeds? At higher speeds the tarmac would also have to be thicker.


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## Innsertnamehere

age of motorways, and the fact that a lot of ex East Germany has old, soviet infrastructure that hasn't been replaced probably plays a factor. A good chunk of Germany was very poor until recently, it takes a long time to eliminate the maintenance backlog that the communists left.


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## Kanadzie

^^ They've been working hard though. The road from say, Prague-Dresden-Berlin is good on the German side, especially around Berlin, the Berliner Ring is good (but some major investments going on / been going on)... A11 Berlin - Szczecin OK this one is generally garbage but AADT is low. A12 Berlin-Poznan road is excellent.

But maybe all that "unity investment" is distracting from the core and most important roads in the Ruhr area which were already made in older times, but have massive traffic counts (well not by GTA standards, but that is only because of the many different, complimentary routes)


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## Autostädter

Innsertnamehere said:


> age of motorways, and the fact that a lot of ex East Germany has old, soviet infrastructure that hasn't been replaced probably plays a factor. A good chunk of Germany was very poor until recently, it takes a long time to eliminate the maintenance backlog that the communists left.


No. Motorways in the East are excellent throughout. Better than in the West, I'd say. The bad roads have disappeared long ago.


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## keokiracer

It might even be a cause of the current troubles. From what I've read significant investment went to Eastern Germany after the unification, which may have caused a maintenace backlog in the rest of Germany.


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## ChrisZwolle

Quite a large proportion of Autobahns in the east have 'concrete cancer' (Betonkrebs) and need to be replaced far earlier than anticipated. In Sachsen-Anhalt alone 220 out of 956 km of carriageway need to be renovated for this reason.

http://www.mz-web.de/mitteldeutschl...rden-zu-grossbaustelle,20641266,26656808.html


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## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> My parents came from Romania to visit. They also drove to Saarland.
> They were shocked by the number of Baustellen, Staus and everything. Nothing like that in Hungary or Austria...


Your parents should drive on the Romanian A1 b/n Cunta and Saliste (opened 1 year ago). The entire 20km section is just one large Baustelle.

Most speed limits are useless because there're no roadworks. If there are roadworks, even with workers walking on the carriageway, there is no speed limit.

There's a construction side at Cunta i/c. Speed limit 60, lane reduction announced. After more than 1km there are just some red/yellow poles but no roadworks and no lane reduction. I drove there faster each day. I totally ignored the signs in the end. The situation has changed yesterday, there was really a lane reduction, speed limit 30(!!) and works at the guard railing ongoing.

I monitored a similar situation in early July. There was really a huge damage, lane reduction, but no roadworks. I don't know when the lane was closed but I saw a big meeting (> 20 persons, not workers) there after about 3-4 days. I was there for 10 days. The next to last day, works began.



ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove 6,600 kilometers through France and Spain in June. I passed through 4 roadworks. If you would drive such a distance through Germany, you would pass through 150 roadworks (this summer there were 300+ road works on 12500 km of Autobahn).


I drove less km in France this year but I saw much more roadworks. I would say about 30..40 construction sites (short-term or long-term) on 2,000km motorway.



Autostädter said:


> No. Motorways in the East are excellent throughout. Better than in the West, I'd say. The bad roads have disappeared long ago.


I drove almost all eastern Autobahns this summer. There are many (new) Autobahns in bad condition and should be renovated (e.g. sections on A4, A10, A11, A17,...) or are already u/c (e.g. sections on A12, A13, A15, A38,...). If they would not be renovated now they will have to be entirely renewed in 10..20 years. In addition(!), there are sections with 'concrete cancer' (Betonkrebs).

The desaster in western and southern Germany was caused by the German reunification. Required road works were skipped to have money for renovating and building roads in eastern Germany and the untended sections have to be totally renewed now because the damages cannot be repaired anymore. In addition, traffic volumes are much higher than expected - due to the German reunification and due to the change in central/eastern Europe.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A23 Stör Bridge, Itzehoe*

A recent (May) aerial photo of the new Stör Bridge near Itzehoe (northwest of Hamburg). The new bridge is part of a 7 kilometer project to construct the B5 into A23. The project duration is 9.5 years (January 2007 - June 2016).


Störbrücke Itzehoe by Jan Czonstke, on Flickr


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## detreinbek

*Tolles Foto*



ChrisZwolle said:


> A recent (May) aerial photo of the new Stör Bridge near Itzehoe (northwest of Hamburg). The new bridge is part of a 7 kilometer project to construct the B5 into A23. The project duration is 9.5 years (January 2007 - June 2016).
> 
> 
> Störbrücke Itzehoe by Jan Czonstke, on Flickr


Thank you for this amazing photo


----------



## SRC_100

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new bridge is part of a *7 kilometer project* to construct the B5 into A23. The *project duration is 9.5 years* (January 2007 - June 2016).


mg:

***I know that the construction time does not depend on its length, but here is really something wrong...


----------



## MichiH

*Truck toll*

The total income of the truck toll was *4.46 billion € in 2014* (+ 53 million € compared to 2013; source). The system costs were 1.03 billion €, 3.431 billion € have been used for investment in:

*- BVWP projects: 815 million €*
* Autobahn: 639 million €
* B roads: 177 million €
*- Preservation: 1.959 million €*
* Autobahn: 1.721 million €
* B roads: 238 million €
*- PPP: 163 million €*
* Autobahn: 163 million €
* B roads: -
*- Rest areas/noise prevention: 301 million €*
* Autobahn: 103 million €
* B roads: -
*- Traffic devices/facilities: 103 million €*
* Autobahn: 103 million €
* B roads: -
*- "Zweckausgabenpauschale"(I think it's planning costs): 90 million €*
* Autobahn: 79 million €
* B roads: 12 million €

In total: 3.005 billion € for Autobahns and 426 million € for B roads.


----------



## MichiH

*Car toll*

Info about the costs of the future expenses incurred (source):

The BAG has already ordered a specification about monitoring and penalization software (110,000 €).
The BAG has bought three cars to test the monitoring system (71,000 €).
The BAG personnel costs are 346,000 € up to now.
The BAG material costs are 17,000 € up to now (IT infrastructure).
Expertise about EU law: 26,300 €.
Estimation about share of cars which do not use federal roads: 14,280 €.
Check of car toll income prediction: 23,800 €.
Expertise about 'Die Infrastrukturabgabe und die Debatte über Ausländerdiskriminierung' (Infrastrucute toll and the dispute about discrimination of foreigners): 30,000 €.

EU commission was consulted when the car toll law was prepared.
It is currently not planned to have any negotiations/talks with the EU commission.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Liquid aluminium was spilled on A1 near Schwerte.


----------



## Wilhem275

And then there's people not believing the Germans have the best highways in the world... they're even silver plated


----------



## MichiH

*A71*



MichiH said:


> It is reported to be opened in September now........ Please refer to a news article.


The final section of A71 will be opened on 3rd September 2015 (source)!

*A71:* Etzleben – AS Sömmerda-East 11.4km (June 2010 to 3rd September 2015) – project – map


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> Liquid aluminium was spilled on A1 near Schwerte.


I didn't even know that they transport liquid aluminium by road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Apparently it's pretty rare. I've never seen such a truck. I've read they are used to transport 660 °C molten aluminium to car plants. Smelting aluminium requires huge electricity consumption, plants need a direct connection to high voltage transmission lines.


----------



## MichiH

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisZwolle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 12 March 2014
> 
> A 1.6 km stretch of A30 opened to provisional traffic today. It's a short stretch north of Bad Oeynhausen that runs from L772 to K29 (new B61?) There's one lane each way for the time being. It doesn't connect to other parts of A30 yet, so through traffic still has to go through the city of Bad Oeynhausen for the time being.
> 
> And I drove it today!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, opened this morning. Some pics: > click <.
> Bad news: The completion of the A30 bypass is delayed. Straßen.NRW hopes to open it in early 2017.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The official aim is to get the entire A30 _Bad Oeynhausen_ bypass into service in 2016 (I guess late 2016): source.
Click to expand...

There's some trouble about the construction contract of the Löhne i/c "Kreuz Löhne" (15 million €). A bidder was excluded of the tender procedure because the bidder made a formal error. A complaint of the company was rejected by the procurement chamber ("Vergabekammer") in June. Now, the company went to court. The hearing will be in October 2015. Afterwards, the contract should be awarded short-term. Thus, the planned completion (Late 2016, which is a confirmation to my previous assumption) is delayed. It's not possible to term a completion date. See press release.

I guess, it will be delayed by (minimum) 6 months. That means 2017. In addition, I don't think that the eastern section will be opened in late 2016 but together with the western section to avoid getting traffic on the new road by mistake which would lead them on streets through residential areas (L772).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It was originally planned to open in late 2016, i.e. before the winter. I'm not sure how much the works are impacted by the winter, but it could mean an additional 3 months delay, maybe opening in Q3 2017. 

Works started in September 2008...


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Works started in September 2008...


The announced construction time was 5 1/2 years at that time .
The first section was announced to be opened in early 2011 but it was opened on 12th March 2014.

Germany :banana:


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *project list* (groundbreaking 2016)
> 
> It contains almost all projects with building permit!
> 
> ...
> B14 Nellmersbach - Backnang (BA 1.1) 10 Mio €
> ...


The B14 project b/n Backnang-West and Nellmersbach in Baden-Württemberg has a length of 7.6km. AADT was about 22,000 vehicles/day in 2010 and it's planned to built a 4-laned road with hard shoulders. It also contains the 2nd Murr viaduct (2nd c/w, the old one was recently reconstructed) and a 135m tunnel in Waldrems.

The plan approval order was passed in November 2005 and building permit (Baurecht) is available since October 2007. Total costs: about 144 million €.

The project was split by the state's ministry of transport in 2011. It was planned to built section 1 first. It has a length of 1.9km and includes the Waldrems tunnel. The estimated costs were 38.93 million in 2012. This section was split by the Federal ministry of Transport now. Just 10 million € are funded! That's about 25% of BA1 costs (inflation is about 2-3%/year) and less than 7% of the total 7.6km section costs!

Good news: construction works of section 1.1 should begin in April 2016 (source) and should be completed by 2017 (source).

The new Parliamentary State Secretary of the Federal Ministry of Transport, Mr. Barthle, CDU party, is from the electoral district Rems-Murr but he is used to care just about B29 which is in the same electoral district. Mögglingen bypass was funded in 2014 (68 million €; construction began in July 2015), Essingen was funded in July (35 million €; construction is announced to begin in summer 2016).
Mr. Barthle don't likes the green/red Baden-Württemberg government and published a press release and an interview.

Some quotes:
- All Germans are happy about the invest! Whole Germany? No! One green Minister resists verbal like Asterix.
- We funded 100% of the Baden-Württemberg projects with building permit!
- Baden-Württemberg ordered their projects with building permit (prioritization). That's why they don't have more projects with building permit and that's why they didn't get more money!
- The prioritization was useless "Hat uns im Bund nämlich überhaupt nicht interessiert. Hat für uns keinerlei Bedeutung" --> "we didn't care about it. Has no importance at all".
- We only fund projects which are ready for building ("Baureife") that means land must be aquired (note: not true, I read about many funded projects that they have to aquire land now; it's quite common in Germany to wait with land acquisition till the construction is funded)
- B14 project was delayed because it was challenged (note: rejected or withdrawn in October 2007)


----------



## TrojaA

There are no more complaints against the A7 cover. The last case was settled out of court by the residents of the Imbekstieg and the City of Hamburg. So construction works can begin End of 2015 as once planned.

Source: http://www.shz.de/schleswig-holstei...r-den-a7-deckel-in-stellingen-id10540641.html


----------



## Heico-M

TrojaA said:


> There are no more complaints against the A7 cover. The last case was settled out of court by the residents of the Imbekstieg and the City of Hamburg. So construction works can begin End of 2015 as once planned.
> 
> Source: http://www.shz.de/schleswig-holstei...r-den-a7-deckel-in-stellingen-id10540641.html


Really? No bats? No rare birds? Nothing? 

:banana:


----------



## SRC_100

^^
I heard about dragons... :troll:


----------



## pmaciej7

Little ooops on Berliner Ring.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ 40 Km/h on a Bundes- Autobahn? :O


----------



## miumiuwonwon

Yup. I've even seen a 30km/h sign!


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ I've seen also a 20 km/h on italian A13 near Bologna years ago, but was a sign put alone to cover a damaged guard-rail, I don't think a real limit sign...


----------



## Luki_SL

^^The 40km/h speed limit (and lower limits) is temporary sign, until the motorway repairs will begin.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

^^ that's ok for that reason, but isn't a bit dangerous a so low limit on an Autobahn, without a physical obstacle? A so low limit can cause an accident


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder what's more dangerous, the bump or people driving 40 km/h on the Autobahn in free-flow conditions? 

Very bumpy A11 near the Polish border had a 100 km/h speed limit when I drove there in 2013. I wonder if this is much worse?


----------



## Surel

Given it is a bridge there might be also other reasons for the low speed limit.


----------



## Nils de Gothia

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder what's more dangerous, the bump or people driving 40 km/h on the Autobahn in free-flow conditions?
> 
> Very bumpy A11 near the Polish border had a 100 km/h speed limit when I drove there in 2013. I wonder if this is much worse?


I don´t think the speed limit in the picture has anything to do with driving safety or comfort, i´d rather assume it´s a temporary measure to save the defect expasion joint from further damage.


----------



## g.spinoza

Is it respected? In Italy that sign would be largely ignored.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't think that it's respected.


----------



## SRC_100

^^
Probably in Poland would be installed speed camera :lol:


----------



## MichiH

^^ That usually happens on the famous damaged German Autobahn bridges but many drivers are still caught


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A case in point: https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schl...-Blitzer-fuer-laengeres-Leben,blitzer540.html


----------



## MichiH

^^ Well, it's an English forum, so you should summarize the article (published on 28th August 2015).

The A7 bridge over the Kiel Canal between North Sea and Baltic Sea (Rader Brücke) is damaged. The maximum speed is limited for cars to 80km/h and for trucks to 60km/h but most of the drivers exceed the limit. For this reason, two speed cameras are installed per direction now. Only trucks are checked and fined for the time being though.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> The A7 bridge over the Kiel Canal between North Sea and Baltic Sea (Rader Brücke) is damaged. The maximum speed is limited for cars to 80km/h and for trucks to 60km/h but most of the drivers exceed the limit.


Since when is that bridge open for trucks? 

Several months ago I drove on the A1 Rhine bridge at Leverkusen. This bridge had been closed for all vehicles over 3.5t for several months (it is closed now, too, and will presumably never be opened until a new bridge will be built) and the speed limit is 60 km/h. There are several cameras on the bridge so usually everyone drives between 60-65 km/h. In this case, it was 4AM, the motorway was almost empty. I drove there, strictly 60 km/h. A heavy truck drove behind me, its weight ten times over the limit, and honked, that I should have driven faster.


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> Is it respected? In Italy that sign would be largely ignored.


In Germany usually the drivers brake and drive slower than usual but faster than the limit. So at a 40 km/h limit sign a majority if cars drive 60-90 km/h.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> Since when is that bridge open for trucks?


Wie bitte, häh? Sorry, I don't get it. It's opened for trucks since the bridge was opened in 1972.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> Wie bitte, häh? Sorry, I don't get it. It's opened for trucks since the bridge was opened in 1972.


Correct, but it was closed for heavy trucks in 2013, I'm 100% sure about it.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Ok. It was closed from 26th June 2013 to 8th November 2013 for vehicles > 7.5t. From 9th November to 16th January 2014 it was closed for trucks > 44t.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> ^^ Ok. It was closed from 26th June 2013 to 8th November 2013 for vehicles > 7.5t. From 9th November to 16th January 2014 it was closed for trucks > 44t.


Thanks.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A 7.5 ton limit is quite restrictive. It bans nearly all types of medium to large-sized trucks. 

The standard EU weight limit is 40 tons, but countries may allow higher limits (such as 44 tons in Germany and Belgium, 50 tons in NL and even higher limits for longer combination vehicles in several countries).


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> The A7 bridge over the Kiel Canal between North Sea and Baltic Sea (Rader Brücke) is damaged. The maximum speed is limited for cars to 80km/h and for trucks to 60km/h but most of the drivers exceed the limit. For this reason, two speed cameras are installed per direction now. Only trucks are checked and fined for the time being though.


Wow, it looks like a quite problematic situation. It's the main road between Central Europe and Denmark/Scandinavia.
I would imagine very serious traffic problems if that bridge will need to be closed for some time.


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Nordrhein-Westfalen (Germany) from Emmerich to Düsseldorf 21.08.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

italystf said:


> Wow, it looks like a quite problematic situation. It's the main road between Central Europe and Denmark/Scandinavia.
> I would imagine very serious traffic problems if that bridge will need to be closed for some time.


The other vital link from Germany to Scandinavia, the only road to the Puttgarden ferry terminal, has a 50 km/h speed limit for trucks on the Fehmarnsund Bridge due to the poor condition of the bridge. I suspect it may have been closed to trucks of 7.5+ tons if it was on a less vital location. But that would mean the Puttgarden ferry cannot be reached by trucks any more.


----------



## italystf

Are they planning to build a second Fehmarnsund bridge (possible with Autobahn standards) to serve the future Puttgarden-Roedby undersea tunnel?


----------



## MichiH

^^ It was not planned at all. IIRC, (official) discussion began about two years ago. Bridge(s) or tunnel(s) for railway and/or road.... It's in a very early planning stage though.


----------



## Des

Construction started on the Oberau bypass between the A95 end and Garmisch. Includes a 3km long 2x2 tunnel and should be reasy in 2021. 

Total length of the bypass: 4.2 km / 200 million Euro

I'm not quite sure if this means they will actually extend the A95 or just move the current B road to a new alignment but it is good news anyway


----------



## Isek

There will be no extension of the A95. The design of the Oberau as well as Farchant bypass does not follow autobahn standards.


----------



## g.spinoza

Des said:


> Construction started on the Oberau bypass between the A95 end and Garmisch. Includes a 3km long 2x2 tunnel and should be reasy in 2021.


I guess you mean re-started. It already started when I was living there but it was blocked when Munich lost the 2018 Winter Olympics bid in mid-2011.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aren't people in Germany fed up with that? The media writes about 'marode infrastruktur' almost daily, but I rarely see them touch upon the extremely slow progress of roadworks. Germany is really an exception in Europe with the slow progress of road works, rivaled perhaps only by Switzerland. 

In southern countries where workers are supposedly 'lazy' (or similar stereotypes, defended by unions) like France or Spain things are done much quicker. 

For example, Sweden built 17 kilometers of motorway around Ulricehamn in *2.5 years*. It included several bridges (longest: 320 m) and a twin-tube tunnel (400 m). To compare, the construction of A33 from Borgholzhausen to Bielefeld (20 km) started in 2009 and may be completed partially in 2016 (*7 years*), or A49 from Neuental to Schwalmstadt: *7 years* for 12 km or A30 around Bad Oeynhausen *9 years* for 10 km, assuming no further delays.

And then there are even more extreme projects, such as the A66 in near Fulda, *9 years* for 3.5 km of motorway, or the replacement of the Stör Bridge and upgrade of B5 to A23 near Itzehoe: *9 years* for 8 km, or A46 near Bestwig: *9 years* for a 6 km extension. Not to mention the upgrade of A661 to full profile or A100 in Berlin.


----------



## kato2k8

Only if they're standing in traffic jams generated by construction sites. Otherwise people are first and foremost NIMBYs with regard to construction.

There's also of course other examples in Germany, such as the A8 widening with 41 km length built, 76 bridges torn down and newly built and 18 km of noise barriers constructed - in only 4 years (and it ended on time in September!).


----------



## patakcze

What's the width of one carriageway on the reconstructed section of A6 near Nürnberg? It seemed narrower than for example the modernised D1 in Czech Republic and just about the same width as D1 between Brno and Vyškov which is only 2+1.


----------



## DSzumaher

patakcze said:


> What's the width of one carriageway on the reconstructed section of A6 near Nürnberg?


11.5 m

----------------------------

Next videos from me.

Flatter rollercoaster than on the A7.





Part of the abandoned longer version of A48.


----------



## belerophon

kato2k8 said:


> There's also of course other examples in Germany, such as the A8 widening with 41 km length built, 76 bridges torn down and newly built and 18 km of noise barriers constructed - in only 4 years (and it ended on time in September!).


Thats a road built on private risk of time and money. This fits the behaviour in some other countries. And, a miracle, if the companys cannot spend public money without responsibility, they finish in time and within budget.

There are other examples like this which were in the media, but until now there were no big changes in road building policy.


----------



## Kanadzie

ChrisZwolle said:


> Aren't people in Germany fed up with that? The media writes about 'marode infrastruktur' almost daily, but I rarely see them touch upon the extremely slow progress of roadworks. Germany is really an exception in Europe with the slow progress of road works, rivaled perhaps only by Switzerland.


I guess the surprisingly polite "Wir Bauen fuer Sie" signs calm people down
They certainly have lots of text you can observe while driving so slow :lol:

I'm already annoyed by an overpass reconstruction project near my office... the sign says... December 2016. WTF they are not even reconstructing the overpass, just rehabilitating... the traffic jam caused by the lane reduction from 6 to four makes it take forever to get on the highway...


----------



## patakcze

DSzumaher said:


> 11.5m


Interesting. Modernised D1 is only 0,25m wider, but driving on it feels much more comfortable.


----------



## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> There's also of course other examples in Germany, such as the A8 widening with 41 km length built, 76 bridges torn down and newly built and 18 km of noise barriers constructed - in only 4 years (and it ended on time in September!).


Call me a nitpicker but... The contract deadline was late September 2015 and it was officially inaugurated on time but it's not yet 2x3 lanes on the entire section. A 7.4km section near Zusmarshausen is delayed. The 3rd lane of the westbound carriageway was announced to be opened yesterday, the 3rd lane of the eastbound carriageway is announced to be opened on 2nd November 2015. Source (Die A8 ist eröffnet – und doch nicht fertig; A8 is opened - but not yet completed).


----------



## MichiH

*A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar*



ChrisZwolle said:


> I also drove by the Talbrücke Nuttlar, this is part of the Autobahn A46 extension from Bestwig to Olsberg. This is the highest bridge in North Rhine-Westphalia, the bridge deck is 115 meters above the valley.
> 
> Some photos:


Some (great) aerial pics: http://www.derwesten.de/region/rhei...echste-bruecke-nrws-img1-zoom-id11195766.html.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those are great photos! You can see why engineers sometimes call bridges a work of art(ificial) structure. 

Apparently the A46 won't open in 2016, BMVI talks about 2018 and I've read somewhere that a Strassen.NRW guy said it might not open until 2019.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ in Italian, French, Portuguese and even in Dutch tunnels, bridges, underpasses and so on are collectively called "work of art". This term is used (translated in these languages) especially in transport infrastructure to define everything that is not a simple rail/road/pipeline/other transport infrastructure on a flat land or on an embarkment. But I have never seen it used in English or German, with this meaning.


----------



## Christian_AT

In Germany there are basicly 2 problems:

-> too less money for infrastructure

-> split up the money for example for 2 projects and start 8 and all waiting for money and you see this "fast" construction, 
other countries:
start 2 projects in year 1, finish it end of year 2
start 2 projects in year 3, finish it end of year 4
start 2 projects in year 5, finish it end of year 6
start 2 projects in year 7, finish it end of year 8
germany:
start 8 projects in year 1, finish ALL end of year 8
:bash:


----------



## kato2k8

Coccodrillo said:


> But I have never seen it used in English or German, with this meaning.


The German term is _Kunstbauwerk_ / _Kunstbau_ - which can also be translated to _building of art_, but is actually a shortening of _artificial building_.


----------



## DSzumaher

Expressway along Lahn river with variable arrangement of a road. It aspires into 4 lanes for its entire recorded length.


----------



## MichiH

*B10 Pirmasens - Landau*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The next 3.8km long section from *Walmersbach to Hinterweidenthal* (B327) is u/c (OSM). It is not only a simple addition of a 2nd carriageway but a realignment. The plan approval order was passed in September 2009, works started in June 2010 and completion is estimated for 2016 (34 million €).
> 
> 
> 
> They splitted the 3.8km long section into 2 phases. The groundbreaking ceremony for the 2nd phase will be on 23th August 2013. A state secretary of the Federal Ministry of Transport will participate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The estimated completion date of the 2nd phase is now 2018.
Click to expand...

*B10:* Wallmersbach – west of Hinterweidenthal 2.1km (June 2010 to 2018) – project – map
*B10:* west of Hinterweidenthal – Hinterweidenthal 1.7km (September 2013 to 2018) – project – map

The 1.8km** 4-laned section b/n Walmersbach and west of the L487 will be opened on 30th October 2015. Source (2).

** That means only a part of the first section will be opened. I'd like to say it's the major part but the section is very short in spite of everything.


----------



## MichiH

*Happened openings in 2014*

New motorways:
*A4:* AS Düren – AS Kerpen (1x3) 12.9km (September 2008 to 17th September 2014) [direction Cologne] – project – map
*A4:* AS Düren – AS Kerpen (2x3) 12.9km (September 2008 to 20th September 2014) [direction Aachen; discontinuation: 12.8km] – project – map
*A4:* AS Magdala – AS Jena-Göschwitz (1x3) 11.8km (May 2007 to 30th October 2014) [direction Erfurt] – project – map
*A4:* AS Magdala – AS Jena-Göschwitz (2x3) 11.8km (May 2007 to 18th November 2014) [direction Dresden; discontinuation: 12.6km] – project – map
*A14:* AS Colbitz – AS Wolmirstedt (2x2) 5.7km (November 2011 to 29th October 2014) – ? – map
*A21:* south of Nettelsee – Stolpe (2x2) 2km (February 2012 to 2nd December 2014) – project – map
*A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork (1x2) 4.6km (Summer 2006 to 28th November 2014) [direction Stade] – project – map
*A30:* AS Bad Oeynhausen-North – AS Dehme (2x2) 1.6km (September 2008 to 12th March 2014) – project – map
*A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center (2x2) 2.2km (April 2008 to 24th July 2014) – project – map
*A66:* AS Neuhof-South – AS Neuhof-North (2x2) 3.7km (October 2005 to 13th September 2014) – project – map
*A281:* AS Bremen-Seehausen – AS Bremen-Strom (2x2) 4.1km (April 2009 to 29th September 2014) – project – map
*A524:* west of AK Duisburg-South – west of AS Duisburg-Rahm (2x2) 1.9km (February 2010 to Early July 2014) – ? – map

Motorway upgrade (adding 2nd carriageway):
*A62:* south of AS Weselberg – Schwarzbach viaduct (2x2) 3.6km (September 2013 to Late September 2014) [2nd c/w] – ? – map

Motorway widenings:
*A1:* AK Münster-Süd (A43) – Dortmund Ems canal (2x3) 3.2km (October 2012 to 8th October 2014) – project – map
*A5:* north of AS Appenweier – north of AS Offenburg (2x3) 5.5km (October 2011 to 16th July 2014) – project – map
*A8:* east of Klosterwegbrücke – east of AS Pforzheim-West (2x3) ~3km (August 2009 to 27th November 2014) – project – map
*A8:* east of AS Günzburg – west of AS Burgau (2x3) 7.3km (August 2011 to 18th September 2014) – project – map
*A8:* east of AS Burgau – west of AS Zusmarshausen (2x3) 5.7km (August 2011 to 20th October 2014) – project – map
*A8:* west of AS Adelsried – west of AS Neusäß (2x3) 8.2km (August 2011 to 11th August 2014) – project – map
*A8:* Bergen viaduct (2x3) 1.3km (May 2010 to 26th November 2014) [2x2 for the time being] – project – map
*A9:* AS Triptis – south of AS Triptis (2x3) 3.0km (October 2011 to 4th June 2014) – project – map
*A9:* south of AS Triptis – AS Ditterdorf (2x3) 7.0km (October 2011 to <= 7th November 2014) – project – map
*A9:* AS Dittersdorf – north of AS Schleiz (2x3) 9.0km (October 2011 to <= 7th November 2014) – project – map
*A10:* AD Havelland (A24) – Klein-Ziethen (2x3) 2.4km (Sepember 2012 to 18th November 2014) – project – map
*A24:* AS Kremmen – AD Havelland (2x3) 3.0km (Sepember 2012 to 18th November 2014) – project – map
*A57:* AS Holzbüttgen – AK Neuss-West (A46) (2x3) ?km (2009 to June 2014) – project – map
*A59:* AS Duisburg-Center – Grunewald bridge (2x3) ?km (2008 to April 2014) – project – map

New expressways:
*B2:* AS Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – south of Untersteinbach (2x2) 3.3km (October 2012 to 5th December 2014) – project – map
*B50:* AK Wittlich – AS Platten (2x2) 5.4km (May 2003 to 15th December 2014) – project – map
*B243:* AS Bad Lauterberg – AS Bad Sachsa (2x2) 8.6km (October 2008 to 5th September 2014) – project – map

New B roads and B road bypasses:
*B4:* Kirchweyhe bypass (2+1) 2.1km (May 2012 to 13th May 2014) – project – map
*B16:* Marktoberdorf bypass  1.9km (July 2013 to 16th April 2014) [1st section] – project – map
*B19:* Wernshausen – Niederschmalkalden  3.9km (June 2010 to 15th May 2014) – project – map
*B19:* Bad Mergentheim bypass  2.7km (May 2013 to 27th October 2014) – ? – map
*B25:* Wallerstein/Ehringen bypass (2+1) 3.6km (June 2013 to 13th September 2014) – project – map
*B28:* Oberkirch/Lautenbach bypass  ~6km (May 2007 to 26th August 2014) – ? – map
*B45:* Nidderau bypass (B45/B521-North – K246)  0.8km (September 2009 to 30th October 2014) – project – map
*B57:* Baesweiler bypass (L255 – L240)  3.0km (October 2011 to 25th February 2014) – ? – map
*B58:* Büderich bypass  4.3km (September 2010 to 6th March 2014) – project – map
*B75:* Dibbersen bypass (partial 2+2) 2.7km (July 2012 to 19th December 2014) – project – map
*B101:* Krögis bypass  1.7km (September 2013 to Late August 2014) – ? – map
*B104:* Schlutup bypass  2.0km (November 2006 to 31st October 2014) – ? – map
*B169:* Göltzschtal bypass (S278 – B94)  0.8km (September 2012 to 2014) – project – map
*B185:* AS Bernburg/Nienburg (L65) – AS Bernburg-East (2+1) 4.6km (2010 to 29th May 2014) – ? – map
*B185:* west of Kleinpaschleben – Köthen-East (2+1) 13.5km (March 2011 to 16th December 2014) – ? – map
*B207:* AS Lübeck-South (A20) – south of Pogeez  5.3km (2011 to 23rd December 2014) – project – map
*B256:* Rengsdorf bypass (partial 2+1) 4.2km (July 2006 to 23rd September 2014) – project – map
*B256:* Kruft bypass  3.5km (December 2009 to 29th July 2014) – ? – map
*B458:* Dipperz bypass  3.9km (June 2010 to 20th August 2014) – project – map
*B462:* Dunningen bypass  6.4km (September 2009 to 29th August 2014) – ? – map
*B464:* south of Renningen (L1185) – Magstadt (K1006)  1.2km (July 2012 to 10th April 2014) – ? – map
*B521:* Nidderau bypass (B521-North – B45/B521-North)  2.6km (September 2009 to 30th September 2014) – project – map

B road widenings:
*B12:* AS Kraftisried – Unterthingau (2+1) 3.3km (Early 2014 to September 2014) – project – map
*B14:* Danube bridge Tuttlingen (2x2) 0.6km (August 2013 to November 2014) – project – map
*B17:* Hohenwart (LL16) – Denklingen-North (LL17) (2+1) 1.3km (March 2014 to September 2014) – project – map
*B41:* AS Ingelheim-West – Ingelheim (L419) (2x2) 0.7km (September 2013 to Summer 2014) – ? – map
*B85:* Steinbach am Wald – Hirschfeld (2+1) 1.4km (March 2013 to May 2014) – project – map
*B85:* March (REG5) – west of Metten (2+1) 1.5km (August 2013 to 12th September 2014) – project – map
*B174:* Chemnitz-Südring – Ortsausgang Chemnitz (Gornauer Straße) (2x2) 1.3km (September 2012 to 12th December 2014) – ? – map
*B286:* south of AS Alitzheim – north of AS Gerolzhofen-North (2+1) ~1.3km (July 2013 to 8th December 2014) – project – map
*B463:* AS Weilstetten – Lochenbach viaduct (2+1) ~1km (2012 to 21st November 2014) – ? – map


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## MichiH

*Happened and expected openings in 2015*

2013 summary: > click <.

2014 summary: > click <.


2015 summary _including expected openings_:


New motorways:
_*A14:* AK Schwerin – AS Grabow (2x2) 14.4km (November 2012 to Mid December 2015) – ? – map_
_*A14:* AS Groß Warnow – AS Karstädt (2x2) 10.8km (October 2013 to Late 2015) – project – map_
_*A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – south of Stör bridge (2x2) 2.5km (January 2007 to 26th October 2015) – project – map_
*A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork (2x2) 4.6km (Summer 2006 to 17th July 2015) [direction Hamburg] – project – map
*A71:* Etzleben – AS Sömmerda-East (2x2) 11.4km (June 2010 to 3rd September 2015) – project – map
*A448:* rededication AD Bochum-West – AS Bochum-South (2x2) 5.0km (Mid 2015) – project – map

Motorway widenings:
_*A3:* Kauppenbrücke – AS Rohrbrunn (2x3) 8km (April 2013 to Mid November 2015) [partial 4 eastbound lanes] – project – map_
_*A3:* Main-Donube-Canal bridge (2x3) 1,3km (April 2014 to Late 2015) – project – map_
*A4:* AS Düren – east of AS Düren (2x3) 2.2km (? to 12th June 2015) – project – map
_*A4:* west of AS Kerpen – AS Kerpen (2x3) 2,2km (March 2015 to Late 2015) – project – map_
*A8:* east of AS Karlsbad – east of Klosterwegbrücke (2x3) ~6km (August 2009 to 26th 06 2015) – project – map
*A8:* Temmenhausen – west of AS Ulm-West (2x3) 7.8km (May 2012 to 24th 09 2015) – project – map
*A8:* west of AS Burgau – east of AS Burgau (2x3) 5.7km (August 2011 to Late July/Early August 2015) – project – map
_*A8:* west of AS Zusmarshausen – west of AS Adelsried (2x3) 7,4km (August 2011 to 2nd November 2015) – project – map_
*A8:* west of AS Neusäß – AS Neusäß (2x3) ~5.0km (August 2011 to September 2015) – project – map
*A8:* AS Neusäß – AS Augsburg-West (2x3) ~2.7km (August 2011 to June 2015) – project – map
_*A10:* east of AD Pankow (A114) – Berlin/Brandenburg border (2x3) 5,4km (2009 to Early November 2015) – project – map_
*A40:* Walzwerkstraße – AD Bochum-West (A448) (2x3) ~2km (Late 2009 to 18th June 2015) – project – map
_*A57:* AK Kaarst (A52) – AS Holzbüttgen (2x3) ?km (November 2013 to December 2015) – project – map_

New expressways:
_*B10:* Walmersbach – west of Hinterweidenthal (2x2) 1.8km (June 2010 to 30th October 2015) – project – map_
_*B535:* AS Mannheim-Friedrichsfeld – AS Schwetzingen-Center (2x2) 1.9km (December 2010 to Mid December 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map_

New B roads and B road bypasses:
*B2R:* AS München-Sendling-Plinganserstraße (B11) – AS München-Sendling (A96) (2x3) 2.8km (August 2009 to 27th July 2015) – project – map
*B15:* AS Rosenheim-West (A8) – AS Kolbermoor (St2078)  3.5km (August 2012 to 12th October 2015) – project – map
*B16:* Dillingen bypass (2+1) 9.4km (June 2012 to 15th September 2015) – project – map
*B27:* Waake bypass (2+1) 2.5km (March 2010 to 18th August 2015) – project – map
*B45:* Nidderau bypass (K246 – B45-South)  3.9km (September 2009 to 22nd June 2015) – project – map
*B48:* Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass  0.7km (September 2009 to 09th October 2015) – ? – map
*B68:* Essen bypass  4.1km (August 2012 to 12th October 2015) – project – map
_*B96n:* AS Samtens-Ost – Scharpitz (2+1) 11.5km (June 2011 to November 2015) – project – map_
*B109:* Anklam bypass  1.7km (July 2011 to 08th May 2015) – ? – map
_*B112:* Brieskow-Finkenheerd/Wiesenau bypass (2+1) 10.0km (April 2012 to Late 2015) – project – map_
_*B212:* Huntebrück-North – Huntebrück-South  1.5km (July 2009 to October 2015) – project – map_
*B237:* Wipperfürth bypass  0.5km (January 2013 to Spring 2015) – ? – map
*B245:* Bebertal bypass  4.8km (September 2013 to 14th September 2015) – ? – map
*B247:* Duderstadt bypass (west of Westerode (B446) – north of Tiftlingerorde)  3.3km (July 2012 to 16th October 2015) – project – map
*B249:* Frieda bypass  2.2km (July 2013 to 12th September 2015) – project – map
*B255:* AS Oberahr – north of Ettinghausen  ?km (July 2007 to 25th March 2015) – ? – map
*B304:* Realignment near Mühlreit  2.0km (September 2011 to 23rd October 2015) – project – map

B road widenings:
*B12:* Unterthingau – AS Geisenried (2+1) 3.3km (2nd quarter 2015 to August 2015) – project – map
_*B16:* Ernsgaden-West – AS Ernsgaden-East (2+1) 3km (September 2014 to 4th December 2015) – ? – map_
*B16:* AS Bernhardswald – Wenzenbach (2+1) 2.6km (November 2014 to 11th September 2015) – project – map
_*B28:* K1029 – Herrenberg (2+1) 0,9km (July 2015 to Late 2015) – project – map_
*B41:* east of Waldböckelheim – Waldböckelheim-Reitweg (2x2) 1.1km (September 2012 to 10th September 2015) – project – map


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## MichiH

*A23 Stör bridge Itzehoe*



MichiH said:


> The opening ceremony (with live music etcetera) of the Stör bridge will be on 24th October 2015 and both carriageways will probable get into service on 26th October 2015 but one lane per direction only. Each 2nd lane should be in service till 10th November 2015. See press release.


The opening ceremony was yesterday. The new bridge (2nd carriageway) will be opened 1-laned tomorrow. It's reported that the other carriageway will be opened 2-laned. 2 lanes per carriageway will be opened on 10th November 2015. Here's a nice video with aerial view and a little historicial view: > click <. The entire project has a lengths of 7.5km and costs 159 million €, see press release. The final section will be opened in June 2016.


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## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*



MichiH said:


> It's reported that the section in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania will be in service from Mid of December 2015. The Brandenburg section is still announced "to be opened in late 2015" (source).
> 
> *A14:* AK Schwerin – AS Grabow 14.4km (November 2012 to Mid December 2015) – ? – map
> *A14:* AS Groß Warnow – AS Karstädt 10.8km (October 2013 to Late 2015) – project – map


The Mecklenburg-West Pomerania Ministry of Transport said that their section will be opened in December 2015. The Brandenburg Mistry of Transport said that their section will be opened in Mid or Late December 2015. The Saxony-Anhalt Ministry of Transport assumes that the entire A14 will be completed by 2020. Source.


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> The final section will be opened in June 2016.


9.5 years after construction began in early 2007...

The Stör Bridge has had a strange progress. The first arch bridge was built quickly, they shipped the main span into position 1 year after construction began. Usually that means the bridge can open quickly. However, it took another 2.5 years before it actually opened, bringing the construction time of the first span to 3.5 years. It then took another 4.5 years to complete the second span. 



MichiH said:


> The Saxony-Anhalt Ministry of Transport assumes that the entire A14 will be completed by 2020. Source.


Hmm, the segment of A14 near Ludwigslust was constructed at a fairly fast pace, but I doubt if they can complete another 100 kilometers of new Autobahn over the next 5 years, given the slow progress on other projects like A30, A33, A44 and A49 to name a few. It all depends on available funding I suppose.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Rhine River Bridge*

The design of the Rheinbrücke Leverkusen (Rhine River Bridge at Leverkusen). The plans were published today.


Entwurf Rheinbrücke Leverkusen by European Roads, on Flickr


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## MichiH

^^ Yep, the plan approval order was started.


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## TM_Germany

nice! It looks like they even reserved space for another lane in the future. I never thought I'd see something this (relatively) intelligent in any bigger project in germany. Normally they just add a lane (if at all) and then get confused how it could possibly be congested again.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A94 München - Passau*

The concession of the construction of the missing link and maintenance of A94 east of München was awarded to Isentalautobahn GmbH yesterday.

The concession runs from Forstinning to Marklt (77 km) and includes the construction of the 33 km missing link from Pastetten to Heldenstein. The concession will start on 1 February 2016 and runs for a period of 30 years. The deadline for the construction of the Pastetten - Heldenstein missing link is late October 2019. The concession value over the 30-year period is € 1.1 billion. The PPP model is based on availability payments (no tolls).

http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pressemitteilungen/2015/135-dobrindt-a94-zuschlagserteilung.html


Maybe someone can clarify how this works with the Pastetten - Heldenstein segment. The concession doesn't start until next year, but a groundbreaking was held in 2012 and 2013 for these two segments. Which means the construction of these segments were awarded before this concession agreement. Does Isentalautobahn GmbH takes over the ongoing construction site from other contractors? 

Normally, a concession agreement would be signed before construction begins. In this case it starts 3-4 years after construction began, which seems unusual.


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## kato2k8

The 2012 groundbreaking ceremony was for various "preparation works". These included:

- building earthworks at the heads of four future bridges
- moving those streets that were passed over for the duration of future construction
- building a flood control basin
- zoning the future construction areas incl. building accessways
- constructing some smaller, preplanned pits and embankments
- searching the construction area for bombs
- searching for possible archeological finds in the area
- reconstructing 13 hectares nature compensation zones

The construction awarded now basically takes the fully prepared construction zone and only builds the autobahn on it.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Satellite imagery shows they are constructing the 275 m long Lappachtalbrücke and two underpasses at St2086 near Dorfen. That's a bit more than 'preparation works'.

But maybe that contract was only to construct them, and then let Isentalautobahn construct the rest of the route. It's fairly common in Germany to award numerous individual contracts for earthworks, bridges, paving, etc. In most other countries this is all included in a single contract.


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## Des

Good news about what about the last part from Marktl to the A3? It would probably make more sense to Austrian A8 but I understood are against it and prefer to just use German highways to go from one part of Austria to the other...


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently they are actively planning the A94 extension to Passau. 

I don't get why some states oppose PPP projects. They are a resounding success elsewhere in Germany, long stretches of Autobahn have been widened to six lanes in 3-4 years under a PPP scheme, while traditionally funded projects of such lengths drag on for decades.


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## cinxxx

^^One colleague from work told me the PPP projects are the biggest problem of Germany, this is why roads are so bad and there is no money for projects...


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## MichiH

^^ The Bundesrechungshof (German Federal Court of Auditors) said that PPP constracts are more expensive than traditional contracts. SPD and Green party do often not like PPP, e.g. the Minsters of Transport from NRW and Lower Saxony.


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## Heico-M

cinxxx said:


> ^^One colleague from work told me the PPP projects are the biggest problem of Germany, this is why roads are so bad and there is no money for projects...


Other way round. It is for the PPP that bad motorways could be renewed and widened. Without the PPP, the A1 between Hamburg and Bremen would either still be 2+2 or be under construction for 20+ years.


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## cinxxx

^^I tried to reason with him, but had no chance...


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## belerophon

cinxxx said:


> ^^I tried to reason with him, but had no chance...


I guess you can do everything in a good or in a bad way. 

I agree that the Widening you spoke of was in time and money. And i did not hear that this amount of money was very high in the first place. But it depends what you compare it too. The Bundesrechnungshof states that in most cases the building by the state would have been cheaper.

If it works or not depends on the treaty, the choosing of the partner etc. There are much things which can go wrong, like in the conventional scheme also. 

The Idea that conventional building is always bad, and PPP is always good (or the other way around) is a simple explanation for simple minds. But thats human in a way.

What one should do is to dig in the information basis (which is sometimes not given in PPP projects) and argue thereafter. What people do is, to see the problems of building in germany and argue that PPP is the solution. 

But there are a lot of questions:

1. There are also other factors. In several places here was discussion about law pushing fast building (Poland...) or hindering it (CZ, Germany...). 

2. The risk is still on side of state. If the comany goes bankrupt, the state pays. If the money was not enough, the state does not cancel the treaty (nobody wants to start again and loose more time and money) but pays more.

3. There is not more money, but the state makes treaties to pay later (time period of say 30 years) So you see the nice motorway and cheer. But for the society its just a new load of debt. Spend now pay later.

4. You can trick the official numbers of states debt this way. Its something not counted, that you agreed to pay next xx years, its handled like a maintenance treaty.

All in all i tend to oppose PPP. There are several good examples, where things happened faster, and you may save money also by building not in such small pieces like usual here. But even in this case its not clear that the payment was not to high. It undermines democratic control, because the public is given less information (Geschäftsgeheimnis). And finally it brings not more money to infrastructure but spends money we don't have.

Some saying i like:

First you have a problem. Second you have a solution. Third you have much more problems, caused by the solution. Its wiser to stay with the initial problem and learn to accept it.


For me its a fail of politics. How much money we spend (or dont) is a political question. It must be a decision to give more money, or it must be told clearly, that we need it for other things (education is also an infrastructure). Same thing about the laws. Politics must make clear that something is necessary or also take back an idea. But in fact in both cases politician decide to lie, because that seems to be easier. To argue that something must be built, prognosis about future traffic is systematically overestimated in Eastern germany. This shrinks trust in the planning procedure altogether, and in politics altogehter. We had the discussion about missuse of public money in this federal system already. Everyone want to have a share, its not about necessity. On the other side german law wants to deal with all interests, which makes the planning very slow. The truth is, that you can't be fair to everyone. But thats the shadow side of individualist society. NIMBY-ism etc. Everyones own needs seem the highest to him. Country of lawyers...

I like you people. But reality is often much more complex like you are saying...


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## Heico-M

I'm not into that politicians-always-lie thing. 
Maybe traffic prognoses have been overestimated in Eastern Germany.
Those estimations are made by humans and humans can go wrong, even politicians are humans, believe or not, and if they want a sexy A 13 from Berlin to Dresden, they decide to build it, period. 

My boss drove through Eastern Germany yesterday and was happy that there was not that much traffic, so he could come through faster. 

Regarding PPP, of course it is a matter of how contracts are being made. 
At the end of the day, it is quite probable that the costs will be higher than the conventional way funding. But remember that you get something for the price, and that it is maybe worth it.


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## MattiG

MichiH said:


> ^^ The Bundesrechungshof (German Federal Court of Auditors) said that PPP constracts are more expensive than traditional contracts. SPD and Green party do often not like PPP, e.g. the Minsters of Transport from NRW and Lower Saxony.


It is about what cost elements you include, and what you include as benefits.

If the labor cost of public officers is counted as zero and the value of quick construction is counted as zero, then the PPP model most probably is more expensive: Governments typically can buy cheaper loans than public companies. In addition, the PPP reveals the project management cost which can easily be hidden in the government-driven projects.

Often, it still is question of power. Here in where polar bears run on streets, everyone else is satisfied with the PPP model except the Ministry of Finance. The officers at that ministry have more power than the parliament and the cabinet together. Every long-term agreement like PPP reduces their power during the annual budget negotiations.


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## ChrisZwolle

Under a PPP scheme, the full funding to finish a project as soon as possible becomes available from the beginning. With government-funded projects, funding is often allocated in small blocks with little contracts for every segment and construction phases. This is what generally drags German construction projects on for decades. While under a PPP scheme a 50 km stretch can be widened in 4 years, traditionally funded projects require 4 years for each 5-10 km segment. The amount of time between groundbreaking and completion of small or uncomplicated projects in Germany is nothing but absurd. 

One key problem in Germany remains, even with PPP projects; procedures. They are much more complex and longer than in some other countries. An example is the Femahrnbelt Tunnel. The amount of pages for the German plan approval order was nearly 10 times as many than for the Danish side, despite the project being more or less 50/50 divided between the countries. In addition, the number of appeals was 100 times (!!) higher in Germany than in Denmark (30 vs 3100). That's insane given the small spatial impact of the tunnel on the island of Fehmarn.

You'll typically see that the procedures for longer stretches are also divided in smaller segments. For example the planned PPP widening of A3 between Würzburg and Nürnberg is divided in 10 segments, each with a separate procedure.


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## rudiwien

Interesting discussion! But difficult to argue pro/contra PPP globally, as it is very different for each country. And there are many different aspects to it, and many different PPP models.

As usual, if a private, profit-oriented company takes over infrastructure projects, you can expect a more efficient management - as inefficiency means a directly visible loss of money. However, whether that is an important aspect that justifies PPP, really depends on the country.
I'd guess in Romania, where the highway authority seems to be mostly incompetent, but still employs *many* people, PPP might be a good option, not only for efficiency, but to actually "get things done". In contrast in Austria, where you generally have a good management of important road projects by the authority, it might not be such a gain.

 One other aspect is the quality of work - a PPP is oriented towards profit, so you could expect them to cut costs where possible, which might lead to lower standards in construction and/or maintenance, and important re-construction tasks might get deferred to after the end of the PPP concession. For that I guess you need really good contracts to ensure good maintenance.

 Finally, financing and risks are the biggest issue. What strikes me the most is that in many PPPs, there is actually little to no risk for the companies, as they get often compensated for too low traffic (and thus toll) volumes!
Such settings kind of reduce PPPs to what was mentioned earlier - an easy way to draw on funds that do not stress your countries balance sheets. And it becomes an easy way to bring forward investments, by limiting options in the future, when you have your annual rates to be paid for all these projects.
But then, this is not an issue of the guys who decided to do so, because they got their fame now, and are no longer in power in the future when it may become an issue.. 
But you can not do this forever, to draw on funds that would be available in an ever distant future...


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## ChrisZwolle

rudiwien said:


> One other aspect is the quality of work - a PPP is oriented towards profit, so you could expect them to cut costs where possible, which might lead to lower standards in construction and/or maintenance, and important re-construction tasks might get deferred to after the end of the PPP concession. For that I guess you need really good contracts to ensure good maintenance.


That's why concession periods are usually around 20-30 years. That way there is no incentive to cut corners on quality, because they would have to pay for the deficiencies themselves. Usually the infrastructure has to be handed over in good quality at the end of the concession period. So they can't get away with handing over the motorway full of potholes after 30 years.



> Finally, financing and risks are the biggest issue. What strikes me the most is that in many PPPs, there is actually little to no risk for the companies, as they get often compensated for too low traffic (and thus toll) volumes!


Today's PPPs often utilize the 'availability payments' or 'Verfügbarkeitsmodell' method. This means there is a fixed payment over the entire concession period, with deductions if the infrastructure isn't available (for instance lane closures). That way there are no financial surprises for both the concession company and the tax payers. 

Previous PPP projects employed payments in the form of shadow tolls or truck toll revenue. That turned out to be a gold mine for the concession companies and negative for tax payers. The Netherlands also used this model in the early 1990s and they decided to stop with this PPP model alltogether due to the much higher than anticipated cost, because traffic grew more than they expected (wanted).

Of course, there could be situations where the contract value may be renegotiated, due to unforeseen problems during or after construction. This is not really different from government projects, which frequently have significant cost escalation as well.


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## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> Today's PPPs often utilize the 'availability payments' or 'Verfügbarkeitsmodell' method. This means there is a fixed payment over the entire concession period, with deductions if the infrastructure isn't available (for instance lane closures). That way there are no financial surprises for both the concession company and the tax payers.


But this leaves the door open to overvalued concessions, based on excessive growth expectations. You know how much you'll have to pay, but as a taxpayer you're not really sure the value was calculated properly.
And this takes us back to the issue of lack of trust in politics...

I have a very negative bias on PPP, due to what I saw here in Veneto region: politicians saw them as a great way to launch projects in a short time span (immediate political return) and shift the economical downsides to a time when their career won't be influenced anymore. Thanks to this godsend, the dumbest projects were launched (or were about to be launched, just before the promoters were all arrested for massive corruption icard: icard: icard: )
Also, there was little or no control over the contract, because who cares? In ten years I'm outta here.

Now, if you have a moronic electorate there's not much you can do and you'll end up with dumb projects anyway, but the PPP acted as a powerful incentive in removing all the obstacles that were represented by financial limits.

In the end you're right, PPP gives a way to kickstart important projects much sooner, but if a region has poor control over its policies this ends up being a knife held from the wrong side...


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## ChrisZwolle

Wilhem275 said:


> But this leaves the door open to overvalued concessions, based on excessive growth expectations. You know how much you'll have to pay, but as a taxpayer you're not really sure the value was calculated properly.
> And this takes us back to the issue of lack of trust in politics....


The model using availability payments is independent of actual traffic usage on the motorway. With low or high traffic volumes, the payments to the concession holder remains the same. The only factor in the long term may be that truck traffic could be higher than expected, increasing the wear and tear and maintenance cost. 

The contract value is mainly dependent on construction cost, maintenance cost over the concession period and financing cost (interest). Usually the concession also includes winter services.

In the end it's just a government-financed project, but the major upside is that it can be constructed much faster because all funding is available immediately. That's why PPP projects are in particular interesting for large projects, which would otherwise suffer from fragmented funding availability. 

The decision what to construct remains with the government. The concession company doesn't get to decide whether they construct four or six or even eight lanes. In addition, ownership of the motorway remains with the government as well.


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## belerophon

Well, i am surprised in a positive way. A nice discussion bringing up several things i did not think of before. And without name calling etc.

I don't think we ever get to a point where we have the same view of things. But still we profit from sharing our thoughts. Thats what i like in discussions. 

TY.

Most important for me was the fact about the cost for planning etc, whihc the government does an is hidden in a way. 

In germany municipalities needed to change their finance management from cameralistics to double-entry bookkeeping some years ago. This highlights the problems about infrastructure. This general change means, that before you just had a look what money came in, balances your spending. But you did not count, if the buildings roads etc. you had kept their value. This led to the trend to build something without having the money to keep it afterwards. Most States of germany introduced this system for the municipalities. But most states themselve and the Federal government made only small changes right now. 

http://www.doppik-studie.de/begriff-doppik.html

This highlightens the fact that its always about what costs you take in account. The fun is, that this higher effort makes more sense with bigger projects. But in fact the municipalities do it, the higher levels of state don't.
You always need to think about that this efforts are also costly. So how much you juggle the numbers depends on the comparison to the amount of money in a project. For the municipalities it was expensive, that it changes anything to the better is not yet prooved.

And i like to had that it might improve my english, but its really hard to discuss such a topic in this language... Sry if something sounds very funny.


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## MattiG

Wilhem275 said:


> I have a very negative bias on PPP, due to what I saw here in Veneto region: politicians saw them as a great way to launch projects in a short time span (immediate political return) and shift the economical downsides to a time when their career won't be influenced anymore. Thanks to this godsend, the dumbest projects were launched (or were about to be launched, just before the promoters were all arrested for massive corruption


The bad implementation, however, does not make the model itself bad.

Of course, any PPP project must be under a strict contract and control, as well as backed up financially. 

The interpretation of the word "contract" seems to vary a lot across Europe. In the North, the contracts are to be followed literally, and the client expect the contractor to fulfill all the articles contained. (That was a big surprise to the French state owner company Areva which is building the nuclear power plant in Finland. The plant is delayed for years, and the financial losses are several billions of euros.) That is why most of the PPP projects have been successful in Finland.


----------



## MattiG

belerophon said:


> 2. The risk is still on side of state. If the comany goes bankrupt, the state pays. If the money was not enough, the state does not cancel the treaty (nobody wants to start again and loose more time and money) but pays more.


That sort of risks are results of miserably failed negotiations. Proper PPP agreements are always backed up by financial institutions. If the contractor goes bankrupt then the bank sends money to the state, finds another contractor, or takes some other action.


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## Suburbanist

If poltiical governance is weak, it will affect both PPP and govenrment-led projects. Italy is a good example: PPPs sometimes get away with (financial) murder, but it is not like ANAS-led projects are free of problems either. And then you have really atrocious cases of "semi-independent publicly-backed" agencies (CAS).

My point is that in a country with better political governance, both models can work. But neither is a panacea for bad political governance.


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## MichiH

*A3 @Marktheidenfeld*



MichiH said:


> The neighboring section b/n Marktheidenfeld and the bridge over river Main will be widened in 2016/17 (map). Two bridges over A3 were already reconstructed in 2013 / 2015. Additional preliminary works are ongoing. The Main bridge was reconstructed from 1997-2001.


Preliminary works like building of new overpasses and rainwater retention basins are ongoing. Some pics published by the road authority ABDNB taken in October 2015:














































This pic shows the whole section. It begins about at the "b" of "Nürnberg" and ends in front of the Main bridge:









Traffic on the bridge is on the southern carriageway because of the ongoing widening works south of the bridge.

More pics: > click <.


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## MichiH

*B207 widening / Fehmarnsund crossing / Fehmarnbelt crossing*



MichiH said:


> The B207 b/n the end of A1 at Heiligenhafen-East interchange end and the beginning of the future Fehmarnbelt tunnel near Puttgarden is planned to be widened to 2x2 lanes. B207 will get a motorway-like standard. The plan approval procedure began in October 2011, the plan approval order was passed on 31st August 2015. It was delayed because of the A20 court decision. Many documents had to be revised, there were two revisions (Planänderungsverfahren).
> 
> Schleswig-Hostein Minister of Transport, Mr. Meyer, announced that the Federal government (in German we just say "der Bund") has promised funding, that means, construction works can begin if there are no appeals against the plan approval order. See press release.
> 
> I read earlier that the construction period is about 3 or 3,5 years. The project is split into two sections with a 2.7km gap in between:
> 
> *B207:* AS Puttgarden – north of Fehmarnsund bridge 10.0km (2016? to 2020?) – ? – map (SH; plan approval: October 2011 – August 2015)
> *B207:* Fehmarnsund crossing 2.7km (? to ?) – ? – map (SH; early planning stage)
> *B207:* south of Fehmarnsund bridge – AS Heiligenhafen-East 6.3km (2016? to 2020?) – ? – map (SH; plan approval: October 2011 – August 2015)


The approval order for the *B207 widening* is challenged. There are ten complaints (source; more (prior) details: > click < and > click <).

The efficiency analysis for the *Fehmarnsund crossing* is done. It's planned to build a four-laned road plus two rail tracks. The most efficient variant is a combined bridge for road and rail (100%). Followed by two separate bridges for road and railway (91%), an immersed tunnel for road and railway (74%) and a bored tunnel (73%). The preliminary planning should be completed by late 2017. It's still possible that Fehmarnsund crossing will be built from 2022 to 2028. The existing bridge will not be used for main traffic afterwards. See press release and news article.

The hearing within the plan approval procedure for the *Fehmarnbelt tunnel* has recently taken place (it lasted 8 days). The documents must be improved. It's announced that they will be completed in spring 2016. Afterwards, the plan approval authority will check the documents and start a plan supplemention procedure (Planergänzungsverfahren). Plans will be outlayed again. Please refer to press releases (1 + 2). The Danish Minister of Transport expects that construction works will begin in 2019 at the earliest and will be completed in 2027 at earliest because it's most likely that the plan approval order will be challenged. Source.


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## DSzumaher

The northern half of the A61.

The wooded area near Mönchengladbach.





6 lanes and all-around along ca. 8 km, is to be demolished.





The E31 route moves from one motorway to the other on their concurrency.





The A7 Kassel - Bad Hersfeld, if it would have constructed 30 years later (without considering 5 lanes).


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## DSzumaher

Recently resurfaced section _Kreuz Koblenz_ - Ochtendung. Fortunately, I caught up after.





Do any of you remind almost empty A1? Please look to the southern part. 





Poor quality, but I haven't found this stretch on YT.


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## verreme

^^ You do some amazing signwork


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## TM_Germany

yeah, the amount of information (and the amount of work you apparently put into it) is pretty amazing!


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## MichiH

*Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015*

It was originally planned to publish the draft of the new "Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015" (Federal road demand plan) in early 2015 (2012 version). This was delayed to Mid of 2015, fall 2015, October, November, December 2015 and it's know annouced that it is delayed by some weeks because it should be published together with the "Strategische Umweltprüfung" (strategical environmental audit). See news article and a press release of the Green Baden-Württemberg Minister of Transport commenting the delay.

The next farce of Mr. Dobrindt..... After the infamous car toll debate.......

It was announced that all data of the projects will be published via internet and citizens can comment the general plan. I expect to get a priorization of the projects which have been suggested by the states in 2013. It should be VB+ (urgent demand plus; especially for Autobahn bottlenecks), VB (urgent demand), WB* (further demand with planning permission) and WB (further demand without planning permission). In addition, I expect that some suggested projects will not be put on the list at all.


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## belerophon

MichiH said:


> It was originally planned to publish the draft of the new "Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015" (Federal road demand plan) in early 2015 (2012 version). This was delayed to Mid of 2015, fall 2015, October, November, December 2015 and it's know annouced that it is delayed by some weeks because it should be published together with the "Strategische Umweltprüfung" (strategical environmental audit).


Isn't it fun, that a green minister complains about the fact that the environmental audit takes so long? As far as i understand its not to discuss environmental aspects of one project, but of the networkplanning at all. Thats not such stupid. 

If you discuss what is most necessary to remove bottlenecks in the network, and think of environmental aspects also, this could make planning process of single projects even faster, because you don't need to discuss if, but only how it is built. The improvement of the general plan would fight NiMByism also if it is done in a good way. 

But in reality, it would lead to jsut longer planning times, more paperwork etc. i guess. Bureaucracy could even make a curtail out of a good idea. 

So in a way its funny (like a green minister beeing respronsible for law enforcement of Nuclear energy once), but mostly its sad.


----------



## Turf

Do the long building times also apply to rail infrastructure?
To be more precise, how long will it take to rebuild this bridge?
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/nied.../Frachter-rammt-Friesenbruecke,weener164.html


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## MichiH

belerophon said:


> Isn't it fun, that a green minister complains about the fact that the environmental audit takes so long?


He just complains that it's delayed again and again.



> Es wird langsam peinlich, immer neue Termine bekannt geben zu müssen, die nie eingehalten werden


Generally, Mr. Hermann often publishs press releases or gives interviews to blame the Federal Ministry of Transport.

The latest fight is about a pilot project for introducing a general speed limit of 120km/h on two long Autobahn sections in Baden-Württemberg (A81 and A96). It's a 4-years study which should begin in May 2016. It'is (officially) motivated by the "Vision Zero" which is also part of the coalition contract of the Federal Government (source).
Mr. Dobrindt asked Mr. Hermann to stop the study because it's not legal to introduce a speed limit without any reason but Mr. Hermann wants to do it anyway (source; there's a pic showing Mr. Hermann, the man with bald head, and Mr. Dobrindt; Green party vs. CSU party).


----------



## MichiH

*B6n*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The final segment of the B6n _Bernburg_ bypass will be opened on 29th May 2015. Source.
> 
> The B6n construction b/n A395, A14 and A9 (~130km; map) began in October 1997. It's a parallel west-east connection south of A2 and north of A38. The first section is in service since 2000. It's motorway-like b/n A395 and A14 but only 2+1 and partial with at-grade intersections b/n A14 and A9. The final 15km section b/n _Köthen_ and A9 is announced to be completed by 2018 or 2019 (map). Funding for preliminary works is approved for 2015. It's planned to extend B6n to Torgau (~50km; map; 2+1; early planning stage).
> 
> It's discussed whether B6n could/should be rededicated to A36 b/n A395 and A14 but it's only RQ26 (cross section) instead of RQ28. IIRC, the space reservation next to the road does not fulfill the official motorway standard.
> 
> 
> 
> The final section was opened today. The first 2.7km section of the _Bernburg_ bypass was already opened in December 2011. The entire bypass (7.3km) costs 92 million €. About 50% are funded by EU ERDF. The rest is funded by the federal "Infrastrukturbeschleunigungsprogramm I" and "Konjunkturprogramm II" (infrastructure speed-up program I or stimulus package II).
Click to expand...

The official groundbreaking ceremony for the last B6n section b/n Köthen and the future A9 interchange Thurland in Saxony-Anhalt took place last week. The 15km section costs 51 million €. See press release. It will feature 3 lanes but it's only partial grade-separated.It's announced to be completed by December 2019, see news article. General project info: > click <.

The project name is B6n (n = new) but it will be dedicated B185.

*B185* AS Köthen-East – AS Thurland (A9) 15.2km (November 2015 to December 2018) - ? - map


----------



## belerophon

MichiH said:


> *B185* AS Köthen-East – AS Thurland (A9) 15.2km (November 2015 to December 2018) - ? - map


Originally it was planned to built it eastwards to B184. This would be a better endpoint. It would connect the easter side to the motorway also. I don't understand why they removed this small part (1,5km). It does not save much money, because no bridge etc. is saved...


Concerning the struggels between Federal and State of BW minister of infrastructure: I would prefer a general speed limit on german motorways. You could discuss how high it should be, must not be 120, could also be 140, as the trend is to lift it up someplace. But even at 200 it will brake down some people, that is indeed a safety issue. 

If there should be any scientific digging in the facts any short test is useless. But i think germany will stay without general speed limit for long time. "it does not matter to the car industry, who is government below it."


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## MichiH

belerophon said:


> Originally it was planned to built it eastwards to B184. This would be a better endpoint. It would connect the easter side to the motorway also. I don't understand why they removed this small part (1,5km). It does not save much money, because no bridge etc. is saved...


I don't know details about the end of this section but it's still planned to extend the road to the east. That means "B6n" is planned to be extended to the Saxony border near Schemsal/Bad Düben** or Wittenberg. Please refer to a map published by the MZ in July 2015:










** According to the BVWP 2003 it was planned to extend the B6n to Torgau but Saxony has not submitted this project to be checked for the BVWP 2015.

I don't know any detail about variant 2 to Wittenberg but the demand plan proposal from September 2014 only contains variant 1. The short section b/n A9 and B184 should be 4-laned, the remaining section to the Saxony border should be 3-laned.


----------



## MichiH

*Happened and expected openings in 2015*

I'd like to update the list because there should be some openings next week .

The biggest opening ceremony will be the B96 opening on Rügen island. Chancellor Mrs. Merkel, Federal Minister of Transport Mr. Dobrindt, Minister President of Mecklenburg-West Pomerania Mr. Sellering and Minister of Transport Mr. Pegel will join the party.



MichiH said:


> Motorway widenings:
> _*A3:* Kauppenbrücke – AS Rohrbrunn (2x3) 8.0km (April 2013 to Mid November 2015 / December 2015 ?) [partial 4 eastbound lanes] – project – map_


It was officially opened on 17th November 2015, see press release, but it's still 2x2 because of ongoing works at the median. It should be opened 2x3 on Tuesday.



MichiH said:


> _*A10:* east of AD Pankow (A114) – Berlin/Brandenburg border (2x3) 5.4km (2009 to Early November 2015) – project – map_


Opened since about 11th November 2015.



MichiH said:


> B road widenings:
> _*B16:* Ernsgaden-West – AS Ernsgaden-East (2+1) 3km (September 2014 to 4th December 2015) – ? – map_


Delayed to tomorrow (source).

Full list:

New motorways:
_*A14:* AK Schwerin – AS Grabow (2x2) 14.4km (November 2012 to 21st December 2015) – ? – map_
_*A14:* AS Groß Warnow – AS Karstädt (2x2) 10.8km (October 2013 to 21st December 2015) – project – map_
*A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – south of Stör bridge (2x2) 2.5km (January 2007 to 26th October 2015) – project – map
*A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork (2x2) 4.6km (Summer 2006 to 17th July 2015) [direction Hamburg] – project – map
*A71:* Etzleben – AS Sömmerda-East (2x2) 11.4km (June 2010 to 3rd September 2015) – project – map
*A448:* rededication AD Bochum-West – AS Bochum-South (2x2) 5.0km (Mid 2015) – project – map

Motorway widenings:
_*A3:* Kauppenbrücke – AS Rohrbrunn (2x3) 8.0km (April 2013 to 8th December 2015) [partial 4 eastbound lanes] – project – map_
_*A3:* Main-Donube-Canal bridge (2x3) 1.3km (April 2014 to 18th December 2015) – project – map_
*A4:* AS Düren – east of AS Düren (2x3) 2.2km (? to 12th June 2015) – project – map
*A7:* T+R Harz – AS Seesen (2x3) ~5km (August 2012 to Summer 2015) – project – map
*A8:* east of AS Karlsbad – east of Klosterwegbrücke (2x3) ~6km (August 2009 to 26th 06 2015) – project – map
*A8:* Temmenhausen – west of AS Ulm-West (2x3) 7.8km (May 2012 to 24th 09 2015) – project – map
*A8:* west of AS Burgau – east of AS Burgau (2x3) 5.7km (August 2011 to Late July/Early August 2015) – project – map
*A8:* west of AS Zusmarshausen – west of AS Adelsried (2x3) 7.4km (August 2011 to ~ 2nd November 2015) – project – map
*A8:* west of AS Neusäß – AS Neusäß (2x3) ~5.0km (August 2011 to September 2015) – project – map
*A8:* AS Neusäß – AS Augsburg-West (2x3) ~2.7km (August 2011 to June 2015) – project – map
*A10:* east of AD Pankow (A114) – Berlin/Brandenburg border (2x3) 5.4km (2009 to ~ 11th November 2015) – project – map
*A40:* Walzwerkstraße – AD Bochum-West (A448) (2x3) ~2km (Late 2009 to 18th June 2015) – project – map
_*A57:* AK Kaarst (A52) – AS Holzbüttgen (2x3) ?km (November 2013 to December 2015) – project – map_

New expressways:
*B10:* Walmersbach – west of Hinterweidenthal (2x2) 1.8km (June 2010 to 30th October 2015) – project – map

New B roads and B road bypasses:
*B2R:* AS München-Sendling-Plinganserstraße (B11) – AS München-Sendling (A96) (2x3) 2.8km (August 2009 to 27th July 2015) – project – map
*B15:* AS Rosenheim-West (A8) – AS Kolbermoor (St2078)  3.5km (August 2012 to 12th October 2015) – project – map
*B16:* Dillingen bypass (2+1) 9.4km (June 2012 to 15th September 2015) – project – map
*B27:* Waake bypass (2+1) 2.5km (March 2010 to 18th August 2015) – project – map
*B45:* Nidderau bypass (K246 – B45-South)  3.9km (September 2009 to 22nd June 2015) – project – map
*B48:* Enkenbach-Alsenborn bypass  0.7km (September 2009 to 09th October 2015) – ? – map
*B68:* Essen bypass  4.1km (August 2012 to 12th October 2015) – project – map
_*B96n:* AS Samtens-Ost – Scharpitz (2+1) 11.5km (June 2011 to 8th December 2015) – project – map_
*B109:* Anklam bypass  1.7km (July 2011 to 08th May 2015) – ? – map
_*B112:* Brieskow-Finkenheerd/Wiesenau bypass (2+1) 10.0km (April 2012 to Late 2015 / 2016 ?) – project – map_
_*B212:* Huntebrück-North – Huntebrück-South  1.5km (July 2009 to 10th December 2015) – project – map_
*B237:* Wipperfürth bypass  0.5km (January 2013 to Spring 2015) – ? – map
*B245:* Bebertal bypass  4.8km (September 2013 to 14th September 2015) – ? – map
*B247:* Duderstadt bypass (west of Westerode (B446) – north of Tiftlingerode)  3.3km (July 2012 to 16th October 2015) – project – map
*B249:* Frieda bypass  2.2km (July 2013 to 12th September 2015) – project – map
*B255:* AS Oberahr – north of Ettinghausen  ?km (July 2007 to 25th March 2015) – ? – map
*B304:* Realignment near Mühlreit  2.0km (September 2011 to 23rd October 2015) – project – map

B road widenings:
*B12:* Unterthingau – AS Geisenried (2+1) 3.3km (2nd quarter 2015 to August 2015) – project – map
_*B16:* Ernsgaden-West – AS Ernsgaden-East (2+1) 3km (September 2014 to 7th December 2015) – ? – map_
*B16:* AS Bernhardswald – Wenzenbach (2+1) 2.6km (November 2014 to 11th September 2015) – project – map
_*B28:* K1029 – Herrenberg (2+1) 0.9km (July 2015 to Early December 2015) – project – map_
*B41:* east of Waldböckelheim – Waldböckelheim-Reitweg (2x2) 1.1km (September 2012 to 10th September 2015) – project – map


----------



## verreme

MichiH said:


> The latest fight is about a pilot project for introducing a general speed limit of 120km/h on two long Autobahn sections in Baden-Württemberg (A81 and A96). It's a 4-years study which should begin in May 2016. It'is (officially) motivated by the "Vision Zero" which is also part of the coalition contract of the Federal Government (source).
> Mr. Dobrindt asked Mr. Hermann to stop the study because it's not legal to introduce a speed limit without any reason but Mr. Hermann wants to do it anyway (source; there's a pic showing Mr. Hermann, the man with bald head, and Mr. Dobrindt; Green party vs. CSU party).


C'mon hno:. I would expect a huge public outcry against that. A 120 km/h general speed limit? In _Germany_? Don't they have enough (in BW) with long stretches of A5, A8 and A81 restricted to 120?


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I just imagine Herr Dobrint going off on a huge rant like the scene in _Downfall (der Untergang)_ :lol:


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wow, only 2 km of expressway opened to traffic. I thought there would've been more, but I suppose they opened most of them in December 2014.


Only 11km opened in December 2014.

Most projects have been opened 2011 in recent years:

HE *B49* östl. AS Oberbiel-Ost – westl. Einhausung Wetzlar-Dalheim (2+2) 2,1km (2006 to 8. Februar 2010) [widening] - project – map
ST *B6* AS Güsten – AS Ilberstedt (2+2) 5,7km (09-08 to 28. September 2010) - map
BY *B173* AS Neuses – Kronach (2+2) 1,8km (05-09 to 6. Dezember 2010) [widening] - project – map
BW *B535* AS MA-Friedrichsfeld – AS Schwetzingen-Zent. 1,9km (02-02 to 22. Dezember 2010) [1.RFB] - project – map
BW *B535* AS Schwetzingen-Zent. – westl. AS Kurpfalzhof (2+2) ~3,0km (02-02 to 22. Dezember 2010) - project – map

SH *B404* AS Kiel-Neumeimersdorf – AS Kiel-Wellseedamm (2+2) 2,3km (2004 to Anfang 2011) [widening] - project – map
HE *B3* Wolfshausen – Niederweimar (2+2) 4,6km (08-07 to 11. Mai 2011) - map
BY *B15n* AD Saalhaupt (A93) – AS Schierling-Süd (2+2) 9,4km (07-06 to 26. Juli 2011) - project – map
BW *B10* AS Süßen-Süd – AS Süßen-Ost (2+2) 2,1km (2008 to 19. September 2011) - project – map
BY *B15n* AS Schierling-Süd – AS Neufahrn (2+2) 11,4km (07-06 to 18. November 2011) - project – map
RP *B50* AS Niederkonstenz – AS Kauerhof (2+2) 7,5km (06-09 to 18. November 2011) [widening] - map
ST *B81* AS Altenweddingen – Egeln-Nord (2+2) 5,4km (2010 to 28. November 2011) [widening] - map
BY *B300* südl. AS Aichach-West – östl. AS Aichach-West (2+2) 0,8km (10-10 to 8. Dezember 2011) [widening] - project – map
ST *B6* AS Ilberstedt – AS Bernburg (A14) (2+2) 2,5km (04-10 to 19. Dezember 2011) - map
ST *B185* AS Bernburg (A14) – Bernburg-West (2+2) 1,0km (04-10 to 19. Dezember 2011) - map
ST *B185* Bernburg-West – Bernburg/Nienburg (L65) (2+2) 2,7km (2010 to 19. Dezember 2011) - map

BW *B27* AS Dußlingen – AS Nehren 3,3km (02-10 to 15. März 2012) [1.RFB; Tunnel] - project – map
NW *B8n* südl. AK Duisburg-Süd – AS Düsseldorf-Froschenteich (2+2) 1,4km (02-10 to 1. Juni 2012) - map
SN *B169* AS Seerhausen – AS Riesa-Pausitz (2+2) ~5km (08-09 to 24. September 2012) - map
RP *B10* Wasserturm – AS Pirmasens-Haseneck (2+2) 0,7km (06-07 to 7. November 2012) [widening] - project – map
BW *B33* AS Reichenau – Landeplatz (2+2) 0,9km (09-09 to 19. November 2012) [widening] - map
NW *B61* AS Bielefeld-Brackwede – AS BI-Brackwede (A33) (2+2) 1,4km (06-07 to 5. Dezember 2012) - project – map
TH *B243* AS Großwech. (K4) – AS Großwechsungen (A38) (2+2) 3,5km (08-09 to 5. Dezember 2012) - map
BW *B27* AS Dußlingen – AS Nehren (2+2) 3,3km (03-12 to 11. September 2013) [2.RFB; Tunnel] - project – map
HE *B49* Beselich/Merenberg – AS Merenberg/Allendorf-Ost (2+2) 3,1km (2008 to 7. Dezember 2012) [widening] - project – map

BB *B101* Wiesenhagen – AS Luckenwalde-Nord (2+2) 4,8km (10-10 to 18. März 2013) [widening] - project – map
HE *B49* AS Obertiefenbach-Ost – Deponie Beselich (2+2) 0,9km (09-12 to 15. August 2013) [widening] - project – map
SN *B174* Ortsausgang Chemnitz (Gornauer Straße) – Gornau (2+2) 4,7km (12-10 to 19. November 2013) - map
BY *B15n* AS Neufahrn – AS Ergoldsbach (2+2) 7,2km (08-09 to 2. Dezember 2013) - project – map

BY *B2* AS RH-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – südl. Untersteinbach (2+2) 3,3km (10-12 to 5. Dezember 2014) - project – map
SN *B174* C-Südring – Ortsausgang Chemnitz (Gornauer Str.) (2+2) 1,3km (09-12 to 12. Dezember 2014) [widening] - map
RP *B50* AK Wittlich – AS Platten (2+2) 5,4km (05-03 to 15. Dezember 2014) - project – map

RP *B41* östl. Waldböckelheim – Waldböckelheim-Reitweg (2+2) 1,1km (09-12 to 10. September 2015) [widening] - project – map
RP *B10* Walmersbach – westl. Hinterweidenthal (2+2) 1,8km (06-10 to 30. Oktober 2015) - project – map

BW *B535* AS MA-Friedrichsfeld – AS Schwetzingen-Zent. (2+2) 1,9km (12-10 to Mitte 2016) [2.RFB] - project – map
BW *B33* AS Offenburg-Zunsweier – AS Gengenbach-Nord (2+2) 2,8km (10-10 to September 2016) [widening] - map

RP *B266* AS Bad Neuenahr (A573) – AS Bad Neuenahr-Ost (2+2) 1,8km (02-09 to Mitte 2017) - project – map
BY *B85* Piendling – Untertraubenbach (2+2) 3,2km (03-14 to Oktober 2017) [widening] - project – map
BW *B33* Waldsiedlung – AS Reichenau (2+2) 0,9km (06-14 to Ende 2017) [widening] - map
HE *B49* AS Solms – östl. AS Oberbiel-Ost (2+2) 3,2km (05-10 to Ende 2017) [widening] - project – map

BW *B33* AS Offenburg-Elgersweier (B3) – AS Offenburg-Zunsweier (2+2) 2,4km (10-10 to Anfang 2018) [widening] - map
RP *B10* AS Hinterweidenthal – östl. Hinterweidenthal (2+2) 1,3km (09-13 to 2018) - project – map
BW *B29* östl. Böbingen – westl. Essingen (2+2) 6,9km (07-15 to 2018) - project – map
BW *B30* AS Ravensburg-Süd – AS Karrer (2+2) 3,4km (07-13 to 2018) - project – map
RP *B49* Deponie Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg (2+2) 3,4km (05-11 to 2018) - project – map
RP *B50* AS Platten – östl. AS Lösnich (2+2) 19,9km (07-09 to 2018) - project – map
BY *B300* nördl. AS Dasing (A8) – südl. AS Aichach-West (2+2) 4,2km (10-14 to 2018) [widening] - project – map
NW *B51* AS Münster-Warendorfer Str. (B481) – AS Münster-Wolbecker Str. (2+2) 2,7km (06-15 to Ende 2018) [widening] - project – map
BB *B101* AS Thyrow – AS Trebbin-Nord (2+2) 5km (05-15 to Ende 2018) - project – map

NW *B265* Hürth-Efferen (L92) – Hürth-Hermülheim-Süd (2+2) 3,8km (11-15 to Mai 2019) - map
BY *B15n* AS Ergoldsbach – AS Essenbach (A92) (2+2) 9km (08-13 to 2019) - project – map
BW *B33* AS Allensbach-West – AS Allensbach-Mitte (2+2) 3,6km (11-15 to 2019) - map

BW *B31* Immenstaad – AS Friedrichshafen/Waggershausen (2+2) 7,1km (11-14 to Ende 2020) - project – map

BY *B2* AS Oberau-Nord – AS Oberau-Süd (2+2) 4,2km (09-15 to Ende 2021) [Tunnel] - project – map

2010: 14.5km
2011: 49.7km
2012: 22.6km
2013: 19.6km
2014: 10.0km
2015: 2.9km
_2016: 4.7km
2017: 3.2km
2018: 49.2km
...
_


----------



## MichiH

Wedge said:


> I have been in Germany some months ago and I saw a lot of works of improvements of the highways on going, I asked to my fellow germans guys from my company and they told me that there was a big plan for modernization of the autobahns that consists to prepare them for the next 20 years, according to them the works were related to construct one more lane in some sections, improvement of the surface of the highway, etc.
> 
> MichiH, do you have more information about this plan?


There is no "big plan for modernization of the autobahns" but politicians often announce populist things. Joe Doe's (ordinary citizens) usually don't know the details and are happy about these announcements but also disappointed if they realize one day that it was nothing but hot air.

The budget for transport infrastructure projects has been raised. This achievement was repeated again and again last year.

And there's currently a "big demand plan" in preparation. The *Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2015* (Federal traffic road plan 2015) is a law which should be passed by the Bundestag this year. It's a 10-20 year demand plan for construction of new federal roads (Autobahn and Bundesstraße) and widening of existing federal roads (except 2+1 widening) but it's not a financing plan and it does not contain renovation projects (without adding new lanes).

The current demand plan (BVWP 2003, passed in 2004) sorts projects by two categories: Urgent demand (~ 2003-15) and further demand. Urgent demand means that the Federal Government allows the road authorities (which are organized by the 16 states/"Bundesländer") to start the planning procedures. Once a project has building permits (which can take decades but usually minimum 5 years), the projects could be funded by the Federal Government via the annual Federal budget (which is quite stupid but politicians love it because they can show off... It's usually announced by the counties' politicians, that projects are finally funded and a complete project list is usually not published).

Anyway, there's a preliminary draft for the new BVWP 2015 from September 2014, the final draft was announced to be published in first quarter 2015, delayed to Mid 2015, delayed to Fall 2015, delayed to first quarter 2016 and it's announced to be published in Mid March 2016 now (it's to be discussed in a Bundestag conference from 14th to 18th March). Some state's Ministers of Transport have recently complained that the demand plan is published after their state's election in early March 2016........



Wedge said:


> I was near Dusseldorf and I saw lot of work there, and then I was north to Hamburg and the same picture there, lot of work on going.


There's an overview of the projects from the Düsseldorf area (2015-17): http://www.strassen.nrw.de/projekte/baustellenplanung/bstpl-ddf.html (map). Most of the list are just renovation works like new road surface or bridge renovation. Only 4 projects are part of the BVWP 2003 (demand plan which has been passed in 2004). Again, renovation works are not part of any "big plan" and are only organzied by the state's road authorities. It's funded by a general amount via the annual Federal budget. The road authorities can assign these funding "as desired". They can request more money before the budget law is fixed though. And if state's could not invest their budget, other state's can get the money. This movement is usually done too late (in fall) because the money must usually be invested till the end of the year.


The A7 b/n Hamburg and Bordesholm - west of Kiel - is currently widened as a PPP project. 64km are widened from 2x2 to 2x3 lanes from late 2014 to early 2018. 4 sections are currently u/c, 4 section will be widened 2017/18. That means, the construction period for each section is usually 2-3 years.

In addition, an A7 section in Hamburg is currenty widened from 2x3 to 2x4 lanes. It a 4.2km section south of A23 and it's funded conventionally and it's a more complex because it's an urban area and a housing is built. For that reason, the construction time is June 2014 to 2020.

Both A7 projects are contained in the BVWP 2003.

I've recently posted a list of u/c Autobahn widening projects since 2010: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=129509499&postcount=8385.


----------



## Koesj

Michi, and Chris, and lots of others following German policy decisions know this, but to everyone else: 

Do note that there's loads of stuff from the so-called 'urgent demand' list in the *2003* BVWP where _to this date almost has been done_! Maybe some planning, maybe some surveying, maybe some hopeful boasts during political campaigns or in the local media, but no concrete (or asphalt, haha) results. 

IMO the bottleneck is that the German state apparatus seems paranoid about long-term allocation of funds to _properly_ fix their infrastructure. Whether because of cultural factors, paranoia, neoliberal influences, whatever.


----------



## MichiH

^^ In addition to the funding problem (lack of money for transportation but also lack of proper assignment of the money, e.g. medium-term planning), there's a general German problem with major projects: BER (Berlin Airport), S21 (Stuttgart rainload station), Elb Philharmonic Hall Hamburg,...

But our beloved politicians had a great idea: Construction of Major Projects Reform Commission. Mr. Dobrindt has recently published a press release: > click < (German). The Federal Government has passed an action plan for the introduction of BIM (Building Information Modeling) by 2020. Digitization of planning and building...........


----------



## kato2k8

Some stuff in the 2015 BVWP is still rather ridiculous.

Example:


32 BW 32 A 6 AK Mannheim AS Schwetzingen/Hockenheim - Erweiterung auf 6 Fahrstreifen
33 BW 33 A 6 AD Hockenheim AK Walldorf - Erweiterung auf 8 Fahrstreifen
That leaves a hole between AS Schwetzingen/Hockenheim and AD Hockenheim. Reason is of course that at AD Hockenheim A61 branches off from the A6, and at AS Schwetzingen/Hockenheim the Yellow Autobahn B36 branches off. About 2 km where the A6 coming from North will drop from 3+3 to 2+2 and then suddenly becomes 4+4.

That A61 branch-off? Will be 2+2 for the next 5 km to the border, then planned to be expanded to 3+3 on the RLP side for the next 40 km. That B36 branch-off? Will stay like today, 2+2 for the next 5 km along Hockenheim and then immediately down to 1+1 so suddenly the 50 limit warning signs can't really become any bigger than they already are.


----------



## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> Some stuff in the 2015 BVWP is still rather ridiculous.


The draft must be taken with a grain of salt. There's a note on page 1: ""Bei Gesamtprojekten mit Teilprojekten werden nur die Teilprojekte dargestellt, da sich im Zug der Projektbewertungen Änderungen der Gesamtprojektzuschnitte ergeben können" --> "Overall projects with sub projects are represented as sub projects only because it's possible that the overall project layout could be modified during the project evaluation" :nuts:.


----------



## MichiH

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen / B49 Limburg - Wetzlar*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's some trouble about the construction contract of the Löhne i/c "Kreuz Löhne" (15 million €). *A bidder was excluded of the tender procedure because the bidder made a formal error.* A complaint of the company was rejected by the procurement chamber ("Vergabekammer") in June. Now, the company* went to court*. The hearing will be in October 2015. Afterwards, the contract should be awarded short-term. Thus, the planned completion (Late 2016, which is a confirmation to my previous assumption) is delayed. It's not possible to term a completion date. See press release.
> 
> I guess, it will be delayed by (minimum) 6 months. That means 2017. In addition, I don't think that the eastern section will be opened in late 2016 but together with the western section to avoid getting traffic on the new road by mistake which would lead them on streets through residential areas (L772).
> 
> 
> 
> The court decided that it was not correct to exclude the company from the tender procedure. The crux is the planning of a falsework (Planung eines Traggerüsts) which costs about 1,500 €. The order size is 15,000,000 €. Construction works were planned to begin in May 2015 but will begin in spring 2016 at the earliest. Source.
Click to expand...

The contract should be awarded in February 2016. Construction works should begin in spring 2016 and the bypass should be opened for traffic in *2018* (source). (works last 3 years including "Beböschung" - I've never heard this word, I guess it's "Bepflanzung der Böschung" = planting of the batter).



MichiH said:


> *B49:* Deponie Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to Late 2017) – project – map
> 
> The updated completion date of section no. 3 is 2018.


The construction of a 275m viaduct began. The estimated opening date is spring 2018 (source).









Source: Nassauische Neue Presse


----------



## ChrisZwolle

So that makes 10 years of construction time for a 10 kilometer motorway link. That's freaking unbelievable.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B221n*

The Dutch province of Limburg is very happy with the fact that the L42n upgrade in Nordrhein-Westfalen has now been given the status of B221n and could be adopted in the next _Bundesverkehrswegeplan_. 

B221n would link Geilenkirchen with Landgraaf, connecting two high-standard roads, the B56 around Geilenkirchen and the currently under construction expressways around Landgraaf and other cities that form a conurbation.

Some history:

The upgrade was originally planned as a state road (L42n), an environmental impact assessment (Umweltverträglichkeitsstudie) was positively concluded in 2010. However, it only had 2nd priority in the state road plan of Nordrhein-Westfalen. There was no funding to upgrade it to 1st priority. The state decided to submit the upgrade as a federal road B221n to the federal highway plan (Bundesverkehrswegeplan). 

Limburg seems to think it is now set in stone that the project will advance quickly, but this remains to be seen, given the large volume of projects submitted by the states and the lack of funding to fulfill all those wishes. Especially because this route isn't exactly a major issue for domestic traffic in Germany. And if it advances into construction, it may take a long time to get it completed, similar to the slow progress on the B56n from the Dutch border to A46 (six years of construction for a three-lane road through undeveloped terrain).


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> B221n would link Geilenkirchen with Landgraaf, connecting two high-standard roads, the B56 around Geilenkirchen


A B221 upgrade to 4 lanes from Geilenkrichen to A46 is also submitted for the new BVWP.

It was planned to build a new B road (B258) south of Kerkrade (info with map). It has urgent demand in the current BVWP 2003 but it's not submitted for the new BVWP 2015.



ChrisZwolle said:


> And if it advances into construction, it may take a long time to get it completed, similar to the slow progress on the B56n from the Dutch border to A46 (six years of construction for a three-lane road through undeveloped terrain).


6 years? That applies for the last section only. The groundbreaking ceremony for the first section (5.8km) was on 4th May 2007 (source). The section was opened on 3rd November 2008 (source). The construction of the 2nd section (4.4km) began in October 2008 (or March 2009?) and was completed on 22nd July 2011 (source). The construction of the 3rd section (7.9km) began in December 2011 (source) and is announced to be opened in 1st half-year 2017 (source). The latter should be completed soon (early 2016) but there's an issues about the last 200m (A46 interchange) because a bidder has complaint (source / source).

The construction period of the 18km long B56n is about 10 years: May 2007 - 1st half-year 2017.

1st section: 1.5 years
2nd section: 2.5-3 years
3rd section: 5.5 years


----------



## MichiH

News about two Autobahn tunnel projects in northern Germany:

Elbe tunnel, *A20:* AD Drochtersen (A26) – Glücksstadt 10.8km (2020? to 2025?) – project – map (tunnel length: 5671m; plan approval order: December 2014/March 2015)

The hearing at the Bundesverwaltungsgericht (Federal Administrative Court) about the appeals against the Schlewsig-Holstein plan approval order will be on 11th/12th April 2016. The hearing about the Lower Saxony plan approval order will be on 25th/26th October 2016. The final decision is expected to be announced in November 2016. Nevertheless, the tender procedure will begin in late 2017 at the earliest. Source.


Weser tunnel, *A281:* AS Bremen-Gröpelingen – AS Bremen-Seehausen 4.9km (Late 2017? to 2021?) – project – map (tunnel length: 1095m; plan approval order: June 2010)

The Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitutional Court) has rejected the appeals, see press release. Two house owner had complaint because their houses are planned to be demolished.
The transportation senator of Bremen is glad about the decision and will immediately start with the next steps. The Federal Ministry of Transport has already provided the funding for land acquisition, see press release. The citizens' initiative wants to accept the court decision, see news article.


----------



## MichiH

"Feinstaub-Alarm" (particulate matter alarm) was annouced in Stuttgart today, see press release.

*Citizens of Stuttgart should not drive cars with combustion engines* from midnight on Sunday night and they should not operate stoves which are only used for convenience reason from Sunday 6PM. The alarm will last minimum 2 days. They should use public transportation, go by bicycle or foot or should work at home.

If the voluntary way does not work, prohibitions could be introduced in 2017/18.

The new alarm system was introduced last Monday, see press release. The limit for particulate matter was exceeded 70 times in 2015 but it's only allowed to be exceeded on 35 days/year according to EU law.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

These measures don't help much. The main cause for temporarily higher pollution levels are meteorological (inversion), especially a city like Stuttgart, located in a densely populated valley. 

A lot of large cities are working with banning traffic (based on license plates) but the overall effect is pretty small. The car is an easy target, but industrial sources and the widespread usage of 'Kamine' also have a major share of pollution.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> These measures don't help much. The main cause for temporarily higher pollution levels are meteorological (inversion), especially a city like Stuttgart, located in a densely populated valley.


I disagree. Main cause for pollution is pollution. You can have all the thermal inversion you want, but if you don't pollute, nothing happens.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The point is that reducing car traffic on a few days with spikes of pollution due to inversion doesn't have much effect.


----------



## Kanadzie

g.spinoza said:


> I disagree. Main cause for pollution is pollution. You can have all the thermal inversion you want, but if you don't pollute, nothing happens.


Unless you get cloud from Beijing that then waits and stops on top of you :lol:

I've actually experienced similar "extreme air pollution" in Canada, from forest fires coupled with unfortunate weather pattern holding the smoke on top of the city...

e.g. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/forest-fire-smoke-blankets-montreal-ottawa-1.884173
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2010_Quebec_wildfires
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/07/07/smoke-from-western-canada-wildfires-reaches-toronto.html


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The point is that reducing car traffic on a few days with spikes of pollution due to inversion doesn't have much effect.


On this, I absolutely agree.


----------



## MichiH

^^ The alarm system is introduced by the city of Stuttgart and the Baden-Württemberg state. Please keep in mind that the current mayor of Stuttgart, Fritz Kuhn, is the first Green mayor of a German major city and that the current prime minister of Baden-Württemberg, Winfried Kretschmann, is the first Green prime minister of a German state. It seems that the Greens want to (re)educate people.....


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> BY *B2* AS Oberau-Nord – AS Oberau-Süd (2+2) 4,2km (09-15 to Ende 2021) [Tunnel] - project – map


14.01.2016: Construction of the tunnel has started

http://www.merkur.de/lokales/garmis...el-oberau-patin-magdalena-neuner-6033902.html


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> BW *B31* Immenstaad – AS Friedrichshafen/Waggershausen (2+2) 7,1km (11-14 to Ende 2020) - project – map


Will it really be 2+2 ? The other sections of B31 are 1+1.


----------



## Blackraven

kato2k8 said:


> The KBA has pretty detailed statistics on that.
> 
> Relevant from KBA statistics file FZ13, registered as of January 1st 2015 in Germany:
> 
> 48,548,416 individual passenger-travel vehicles*:
> 44,011,121 cars
> 4,116,441 two-wheeled vehicles
> 28,951 three-wheeled vehicles
> 392,003 caravans
> 
> 5,167,125 commercial vehicles:
> 2,176,613 light trucks of up to 3.5 tons GVW
> 249,381 trucks of 3.5 to 7.5 tons GVW
> 275,349 trucks of over 7.5 tons GVW
> 188,481 semi-trailer truck tractors
> 77,501 busses
> 1,368,938 farm tractors
> 553,730 other tractor units (not in above classes)
> 277,132 other vehicles (not in above classes)
> 
> 
> * may of course include vehicles commercially used for transport purposes.


So it's kinda like 1 car for every 2 persons in Germany

It's amazing that with these many number of cars, you rarely hear reports of massive traffic congestion and build-up.

The quality of road infrastructure and capacity is really that good


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Umm, there's *a lot* of congestion in Germany.


----------



## MichiH

The *ADAC Staubilanz 2015* was published last week: https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/staubilanz_2015.aspx.

It's reported that the total length of all traffic congestions in 2015 was 1.1 million km. It was only 960,000 km in 2014. The Traffic congestion duration increased from 285,000 hours in 2014 to 341,000 hours in 2015. According to the report, the most congested Autobahns are A3, A8 and A5. The ADAC (it's an automobile club) conclusion is that the Autobahn network reaches its capacity limit more often. The congestions are often caused by construction sites (Baustellen).

I don't like the ADAC stats though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Most of my drives in Germany are during the weekend, but I'm always amazed by the huge amount of traffic jams on Saturdays and Sundays. The Netherlands has very little congestion during the weekend, unless there's some major incident or road closure.


----------



## MichiH

^^ ADAC reports that the most congested weekday was Friday with about 4,000km on average. The less congested weekdays were Saturday and Sunday with each 1,430km per day.

The most congested day in 2015 was Thursday before Easter (2nd April) with 8000km.


----------



## kato2k8

With the above numbers the one i'm most surprised with is the 1.4 million farm tractors* - that's an average of 4.8 tractors per agricultural enterprise in Germany (or one per 10 hectares), and a rather obvious sign of industrialization in that field. Studies from the 80s assumed only half less than half that number would be needed for the same commercial structure.

* many of the "other vehicles" will also be farm-related, e.g. self-contained harvesters.


----------



## Attus

The most congestions are caused by construction sites (Baustelle) and accidents. In North-Rhine-Westphalia if you hear traffic reports in the radio the first mention is always A1 Burscheid -> Cologne, I think it is even congested in the middle of the night. There is a huge construction site at the ontersection Leverkusen (A1×A3) and additionally all trucks must leave A1 there because the bridge over Rhine is limited to 3.5t. Of course the intersection was not designed to cover such an amount of heavy traffic diverting from A1 (westbound) to A3. And there is a large construction site on A3 between Cologne Mülheim and Leverkusen (widening works) which is in rush hours so congested that the end of the queue reaches A1.


----------



## DSzumaher

Besides the first 11 km, the A 64 is one of those motorways, which is an expressway.
Meanwhile on the B 52, a _temporariness_ is 4.5 years long. 





Concrete as a trendy pavement in the 20th century, and asphalt in the 21st.


----------



## DSzumaher

The Eifel says goodbye. 





The Rhineland of the 1960s. In these days - substandard, but picturesque.





Unfortunately - an incomplete video. 
Fortunately - the infamous Elzer Berg downhill captured.


----------



## panda80

Some photos between Travemünde and Hamburg, on B75, A226, A1, from may 2014.

Starting from Travemünde on B75:



B75 continues with A226, you have to turn right to remain on B75:



Already on A1:


----------



## panda80

Works on the motorway:


----------



## panda80

End of works:


----------



## panda80

Another area of works, near Hamburg:







End of works:


----------



## panda80

We exit the motorway here:



In Hamburg, on A255:



Veddeler bridge:





Kohlbrand bridge:


----------



## DSzumaher

One of very few rings, whose name appears on signposts.





Feels greater gaps between juctions. Hessian hills as well.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Umm, there's *a lot* of congestion in Germany.


Not only that, but the infrastructure is also severely lacking in some places.

I took my wife and mother-in-law shopping to Berlin last summer, and we went to some outlet place on the west side of the Berliner Ring, next to the junction of the A10/B5. Got on the Berliner Ring to return to Wrocław, and... what the hell is this? No hard shoulder? Only two lanes? A lot of traffic? Err...

Likewise, the A100 in Berlin. They really should get the A100 built ASAP to Frankfurter Allee, but I don't expect to see it before 2030 at the very earliest. I doubt I'll ever see it, but the most sensible thing would be to get the A100 built to Michelangelostrasse. That would complete the ring and do a lot to relieve Berlin. Even with a bit of forward thinking, the A100 could extend to the B2 at least - building it onwards would be problematic, but it would at least provide a decent alternative for those in Prenzlauer Berg to get out.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I really wonder why they didn't take advantage of the Wall removal to build a highway... they could have made a huge Hwy-401 style route through central Berlin no problem. Of course probably a more well-integrated road (typical urban motorway) would be better to stop blocking the city apart, but still, all the land was there...


----------



## Innsertnamehere

the last thing they wanted to do when ripping down a wall that seperated a city for 30 years was to put up a new barrier.


----------



## Attus

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ I really wonder why they didn't take advantage of the Wall removal to build a highway... they could have made a huge Hwy-401 style route through central Berlin no problem. Of course probably a more well-integrated road (typical urban motorway) would be better to stop blocking the city apart, but still, all the land was there...


Apart from all the politial, etc. arguments, the reunification of Berlin had astronomical costs even without constructing a brand new highway in the middle of the city. Berlin has debts of approx. 60 bn €.


----------



## Eulanthe

Attus said:


> Apart from all the politial, etc. arguments, the reunification of Berlin had astronomical costs even without constructing a brand new highway in the middle of the city. Berlin has debts of approx. 60 bn €.


The Federal government is paying for the A100 extension to Treptower Park, aren't they? In this case, they would surely pay up for the further extension.

Edit : just checked, and yes, they've funded it 100%. The cost is around 480 million Euro for 3.2km - so it's not that much. The 2015 Federal Infrastructure Plan suggests that the extension to Storkower Strasse will cost around 550 million, so it's possible financially. Really - 2 billion Euro would cover the entire section to Michelangelostrasse - which would complete the ring. Come on Germany, get on with it!


----------



## Bender

I cannot imagine what'd happen if they had to close it. That's the only bridge between Cologne and Düsseldorf. It's absolutely vital.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it's even the busiest stretch of the entire A1 from Heiligenhafen to Saarbrücken.


----------



## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think it's even the busiest stretch of the entire A1 from Heiligenhafen to Saarbrücken.


no, it is one of 3 hotspots of the A1

- Köln (this one)
- Dortmund (overlay eastwest -northsouth)
- Hamburg (city crossing)

http://autobahnatlas-online.de/Verkehrsmengenkarte2010.pdf


----------



## keokiracer

It is actually the busiest stretch though with 119.400 vehicles/day (Dortmund tops at 102.500, Hamburg gets closer with 117.500).
http://www.wegenwiki.nl/A1_(Duitsland)#Verkeersintensiteiten


----------



## Heico-M

Bender said:


> I cannot imagine what'd happen if they had to close it. That's the only bridge between Cologne and Düsseldorf. It's absolutely vital.


It's not like there weren't any alternative routes, like A3/A4 Kölner Ring or even A46 / A57 via Wuppertal and Düsseldorf. 
Of course, these routes will be even more busy than they already are resulting in extreme congestion.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That's the problem indeed, most of these routes are already operating near capacity. 

I wonder if this has any impact on the other nearby bridges, which are now used by a higher volume of trucks, perhaps shortening their service life? Especially the Mülheimer Brücke is already in a deteriorated condition (it was built in 1951).


----------



## Bender

Heico-M said:


> It's not like there weren't any alternative routes, like A3/A4 Kölner Ring or even A46 / A57 via Wuppertal and Düsseldorf.
> Of course, these routes will be even more busy than they already are resulting in extreme congestion.


That's what, a 50km detour?
Maybe not a big deal for a 1,000km truck ride. More of an issue for your daily commute.


----------



## DSzumaher

There has been no border crossing for over 26 years, but the border still exists: _Baustellen_ / No _Baustellen_. 





A pass through the Leutra Valley has gone.


----------



## g.spinoza

Are these your videos? You deactivated embbeding and then you embed videos?


----------



## DSzumaher

No, not mine. Avatars are an odd coincidence. 
Something had to be bungled.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A99 München*

Merkur reports that all bridges and underpasses along the planned A99 widening will have to be demolished and rebuild, because they do not conform to modern load capacity standards, despite the fact that this segment of A99 is only 41-43 years old.

http://www.merkur.de/lokales/muench...uecken-muessen-abgerissen-werden-6160468.html

This seems like a huge disappointment, as A99 was one of the very few Autobahnen in Germany with a wide median and bridges already wide enough to support an additional lane. This would result in a much longer construction time than under a no-replacement scenario.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ while that's bad news, the immediate adjacent artikel on Merkur is perhaps more concerning 



> Tod beim Liebesspiel: Frau stirbt an Salatgurke
> Mannheim - Um eine zweckentfremdete Salatgurke dreht sich ein kurioser Prozess in Mannheim. Ein Paar hatte das Gemüse beim Liebesspiel eingesetzt - mit tödlichen Folgen.


----------



## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> all bridges and underpasses along the planned A99 widening will have to be demolished and rebuild, because they do not conform to modern load capacity standards


This is the perfect paradox of the legal fraimework of modern infrastructures. A structure is considered perfectly safe to stay open for traffic, basically because someone assessed it 40 years earlier (and the structure is not failing meanwhile). The very same structure is then considered unsafe only because the legal process was updated, while the structure itself is still in perfect order.

I understand that sooner or later technical standards must be upgraded, but with stuff already in place there should be some flexibility, as long as we are within some safe limits... and if we're not, then it should mean the whole structure is _already_ unsafe.

[I assume that the issue here is the amount of load per lane]


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Merkur reports that all bridges and underpasses along the planned A99 widening will have to be demolished and rebuild, because they do not conform to modern load capacity standards, despite the fact that this segment of A99 is only 41-43 years old.


"Fast alle Brücken müssen abgerissen werden" --> Not all bridges but almost all bridges. It's planned to upgrade 18.6km A99 Munich ring from 2x3 to 2x4 lanes b/n AK Munich-North and AS Haar (south of A94).

The construction of the northernmost section from AK Munich-North to AS Ismaning/Aschheim is announced to be started in August 2016 (7.3km; map; preliminary works are already ongoing). The announced completion date is 2019. The estimated costs were 60 million € but the renewing of the bridges will cost additional 80 million €. The current AADTw is about 140,000 vehicles/day, up to 150,000 vehicles/day during holiday traffic. The predicted 2030 AADT is 170,000 vehicles/day, thereof 30,000 heavy traffic. The section already has temporary shoulder running. I read years ago that it should be active after the upgrade again.
Press release from 26th January 2016, news article from 8th February 2016 and news article which has previously been posted by ChrisZwolle.

A demage of the Isar bridge was detected last Tuesday. The mostern-right lane and shoulder lane were closed till the repair was completed on Friday afternoon. Press release from 23rd February and from 26th February 2016.

The plan approval procedure for the upgrade of the next section (I'm not sure I think it's from AS Ismaning/Aschheim till north of the A94 interchange) is announced to begin in 2017. The last section with "advanced planning activity" is from this section boundary to AS Haar. Map.

In addition, it was recently reported that the A99 Allach tunnel (map) should get a 3rd tube just south of the existing tubes. But it will take minimum 10 to 15 years. AADT is about 118,000 vehicles/day on 2x3 lanes. The first step to relieve the section could be a temporary shoulder running. Planning activity has not yet started but it could be activated within 2, 3 or 4 years. Souce from 19th February 2016.

As mentioned earlier on this thread, the widening of almost all A99 sections was submitted for the new federal demand plan (BVWP 2015). The gap south of Munich will remain.


----------



## MichiH

It's announced that the draft of the new BVWP 2015 will be presented on 16th March 2016 (source from 24th February and from 27th February 2016).

It will be presented to the Traffic Commission of the Bundestag on 16th March. I hope it will also be published for public / on internet that day.......


----------



## MichiH

*A448 Bochum*

*A448:* rededication AD Bochum-West – AS Bochum-South 5.0km (Mid 2015) – project – map
*A448:* rededication AS Bochum-South – AS Altenbochum (West) 1.8km (Mid 2018) – project – map
*A448:* AS Altenbochum (West) – AS Altenbochum (East) 1.9km (October 2012 to Mid 2018) – project – map
*A448:* AS Altenbochum (East) – AK Bochum/Witten 1.4km (October 2012 to Late 2016) – project – map

The completion of the latter is delayed by Summer 2017. See news article from 21st February 2016.


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## MichiH

*A661:* AS Frankfurt-Friedberger Landstraße – AS Frankfurt-East 2.2km (November 2007 to Late 2016) [2nd c/w] – project – map



MichiH said:


> The project includes the construction of the 2nd A661 carriageway which began in November 2007. The construction of the A66/A661 interchange also began later on which is required for the tunnel construction.


I forgot that the A661 completion date is late 2017 according to the project page (it was already delayed to late 2017 in June 2015 but I couldn't find any reason for the delay. I thought that the opening could be on time but remaining works after the opening could last till the end of 2017. But the 2nd carriageway is required for a tunnel construction phase ("Baustraße") which means, the opening of the 2nd A661 carriageway must also be delayed due to the A66 tunnel construction delay - maybe it's even delayed to 2018 or 2019 or...).


That means, the following Autobahn or Autobahn-like projects are expected to be completed in 2016:

*A23:* south of Stör bridge – AS Itzehoe-South 2.0km (2010 to 30th June 2016) – project – map
*B535:* AS Mannheim-Friedrichsfeld – AS Schwetzingen-Center 1.9km (December 2010 to Mid 2016) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B33:* AS Offenburg-Zunsweier – AS Gengenbach-North 2.8km (October 2010 to September 2016) – ? – map

The three projects are not new road projects but upgrades of existing roads only.


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## Heico-M

Bender said:


> That's what, a 50km detour?
> Maybe not a big deal for a 1,000km truck ride. More of an issue for your daily commute.


In that case I suggest taking the zoo bridge with a lot of patience. 

:lol:


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## g.spinoza

Italian media are giving news about Baden-Württemberg experimenting with 120 km/h limits on previously limit-free stretches of Autobahn (A96 and A81). They're also reporting Berlin's dissatisfaction, given the fact that Länder should have no saying in this matter, since Autobahnen belong to the State, not the Land.


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## oliver999

very very nice express ways and greenery.


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## MichiH

^^ From the press release:

Recommended truck detour towards France:








There's currently no recommendation for trucks coming from France.

Recommended car detour:








There's a temporary construction site with traffic lights on the old B40 route which is annouced to be removed as soon as possible to get another detour route.


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## sponge_bob

Wilhem275 said:


> LOL, so it is a listed monument because of its incredibly thin architecture... and now it turns out it was actually not credible as a bridge :lol:


Hiw long will it take to de-list this 50+ year old worn out and substandard example of German engineering in preparation for full demolition and replacement.? 3 years ? 4 years, ?............


More.


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## ChrisZwolle

An SR news report stated that replacement is the only viable option, but will take years to plan and complete. They are now focusing on getting the bridge back online by temporary improvements. It was already listed for replacement during an assessment in 2013. 

The problem is that even when a bridge doesn't show any visible damage during an inspection, it could still have inferior strenght which can only be calculated. This happened with the Fechingen Bridge. The state of Saarland has now assembled a task force to check if other bridges also have this problem. Luckily this bridge type with extremely thin supports is rather uncommon. However there are 20 Autobahn bridges in Saarland that need replacement within the next 10 years.


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## Suburbanist

Why does Germany have so many bridges needing closure/replacement? Italy build lots of highways at the same time (West) Germany was building their network, yet there are few cases of such failures or emergence repairs that require lengthy year-long closures!


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## Wilhem275

I wonder the same. I don't understand if we did more maintenance over time, if we used more lasting designs, or if we're simply ignoring the danger :lol: "If I don't see it, it doesn't exist" :lol:

In the last 10-15 years I saw a much better maintenance of Italian motorways, including some major works on pillars of large concrete bridges. But there are also many many examples of bridges with exposed bars (more common on ordinary roads) .


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## sponge_bob

Traffic much higher than designed for which was most often in the 1950s or 1960s on Autobahns. MUCH higher. 

More trucks transiting since EU expansion east and more of the modern heavy artics with multiple axles as a % of trucks.

Now both the A1 and A6 links to Benelux/France are out of service the maintenance backlog is starting to threaten EU transport cohesion it is so bad. I'd say some bridge on the Munich - Salzberg route could be condemned soon. Many are truly truly ancient. 

Germany can repair or strengthen the A6 bridge but that will only serve light trucks and cars...at best..and for a period. Not forever.

I think I know where EU road building funds are headed from 2020 onwards at it ain't gonna be east any longer I'm afraid.


----------



## MichiH

sponge_bob said:


> Traffic much higher than designed for which was most often in the 1950s or 1960s on Autobahns. MUCH higher.
> 
> More trucks transiting since EU expansion east


Exactly! While this happened in the 1990s, most of the funding went to Eastern Germany while the infrastructure of Western Germany did not get the originally assigned money. Renovation or widening+renovation projects were delayed. Meanwhile, the traffic volumes increased more and more - especially trucks.


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## kato2k8

Suburbanist said:


> Why does Germany have so many bridges needing closure/replacement?


Because those bridges are overwhelmingly in excess of 50 years old, and that's about as far as reinforced concrete under variable pressure will last?

Saarland is the early 60s version of the GDR btw, as far as post-unification infrastructure buildup goes.



sponge_bob said:


> Traffic much higher than designed for which was most often in the 1950s or 1960s on Autobahns. MUCH higher.


The late 60s estimates (laid down in GVPs etc) along routes actually quite often match current demand quite well - mostly because the estimates were actually a lot higher between destinations, and quite a number of routes were only partially completed, intended for later expansion or never built.


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## ChrisZwolle

Increased traffic is only a part of the reason why bridges in Germany are in such poor condition. It does not only affect heavily trafficked Autobahn bridges, but also bridges with much lighter traffic.

The weight limit for trucks was increased in 1965. This means bridges designed up until then are often affected by substandard design. However, bridges up until the first half of the 1980s not not have much reserves. They have already replaced some bridges that were less than 40 years old. The problem is the most acute with bridges built before the mid-to-late 1960s, but extends to younger bridges as well.

The problem in Germany is much bigger than anywhere else. It also appears that a renovation is only a short-time measure, most bridges need complete replacement to be a long-term, cost-effective solution. 

To compare, the Netherlands which has a motorway network with similar age as Germany, did not have to replace any bridge due to fatigue so far. It also doesn't seem to be a structural problem in most other countries. Of course, any country needs to renovate bridges at some point, but complete replacement for reasons other than expansion is rare.


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> The problem in Germany is much bigger than anywhere else. It also appears that a renovation is only a short-time measure, most bridges need complete replacement to be a long-term, cost-effective solution.
> 
> To compare, the Netherlands which has a motorway network with similar age as Germany, did not have to replace any bridge due to fatigue so far.


Germany has a higher % of total Autobahn network over 50 years old ....compared to most anywhere else in Europe. Germany also uses a lot more salt in winter than EG Italy or France would.


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## ChrisZwolle

One point of criticism I've read is that bridges were built with an insufficient amount of concrete and a lack of static reserve. It was already known by the early 1980s than many 1960s bridges were deteriorating much faster than anticipated, this was before the east-west unification and opening of the former Eastern Block.


----------



## g.spinoza

sponge_bob said:


> Germany has a higher % of total Autobahn network over 50 years old ....compared to most anywhere else in Europe. Germany also uses a lot more salt in winter than EG Italy or France would.


What has salt to do with bridge static structure? I reckon salt can damage asphalt, but I can't see how in can damage pillars...


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## sponge_bob

Salt damages rebar.


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## kato2k8

ChrisZwolle said:


> However, bridges up until the first half of the 1980s not not have much reserves.


And in 1986 the weight limit was raised again...

(to be fair though - the axle load of about 8 tons has been the same since 1949)


----------



## piotr71

New and old (not in use any more) A4 near Erfurt.





The old one given back to nature, of course. Formerly, used to climb up to the hill.


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## kato2k8

In case anyone wonders why there are six lanes but only a dozen cars per picture and zero trucks: The A4 expansion is part of old plans drawn up after reunification, meaning demand or a cost-benefit-analysis did not really play much of a role in it being built.

AADT is 58,000 near Jena about 10-15 km downroute (where it's somewhat fuller than the place in the pictures) - usually 60,000 is seen as absolute minimum for 2x3 (and 90,000 is seen as "good capacity usage"), 120,000 is absolute minimum for 2x4. The A4 expansion above has since been reasoned for as "well, we will have 60,000 there - in ten years or so".

Project demands _not_ taken up in the new BVWP btw that might give one an idea of what "used-to-reunification-benefits" state ministries "expect" include such interesting ones as e.g. a 2x3 widening for the 37,000 (!) AADT A12 in Brandenburg or a 2x4 widening for the 95,000 AADT A4 in Saxony.


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## Wilhem275

kato2k8 said:


> In case anyone wonders why there are six lanes but only a dozen cars per picture and zero trucks: The A4 expansion is part of old plans drawn up after reunification, meaning demand or a cost-benefit-analysis did not really play much of a role in it being built.


Same criticisms I heard for the Ebensfeld - Erfurt - Lepizig NBS, not following an optimal path and being designed with a failed operational model in mind.

The political climate in Germany now is clearly changed, I wonder why these projects are not getting stopped or downsized where possible.


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## Attus

It was an important factor, too, that the old alignment was a scary Reichsautobahn, up- and downhill, narrow, without hard shoulder., exit and entry lanes. Many heavy trucks drove 40-60 km/h uphill.
It should have been reconstructed any way, such roads may be OK for 15-20,000 AADT but not 40-50,000.


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## MichiH

^^ I think that rebuilding* the A4 2x3 was the right decision even if the AADT is mostly less than 60,000 vehicles/day because the cost difference is not huge and AADT is not far from the recommended 2x3 minimum limit.

*It was not just a simple widening but often a realignment.


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## Attus

MichiH said:


> ^^ I think that rebuilding* the A4 2x3 was the right decision


I absolutely agree.


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## ChrisZwolle

geez, that's terrible. According to BR another fatal accident occurred on the same stretch a few hours after it was cleared, a truck driver fell asleep and drove into a truck that was standing on the shoulder.


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## AvB

I drove there 2 weeks ago, that's terrible


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## miumiuwonwon

*Road trip A4 from Bad Hersfeld to Chemnitz (Part One)*

The A4 is an Autobahn spanning Germany in an east-to-west direction. It is actually in two halves with a huge gap in the middle. The western half is 156 km (97 mi) long and the eastern half is 429 km (267 mi). Currently there are no plans to fill the gap completely.


*1* We're now driving through Bad Hersfeld - a small town which is closed to the Kirchheim intersection (with the A7).


*2-4* The A4 has part of its origins as a military highway constructed between 1934 and 1937. Some stretches don't even have any hard shoulder, which is extremely unsafe for drivers who broke down. Lukily road widening works are in progress. 






*5* Construction workers have started cutting down trees for the next phase of the expansion. 


*6* New and old (red arrow) west of the inner German border.


*7* East of the inner German border howerver, the A4 is mostly 6-lane, winding all the way to Dresden.


*8,9* *The Wartburg*, a castle originally built in the Middle Ages, overlooks the town of Eisenach, in the state of Thuringia. It was the place where Martin Luther translated the New Testament of the Bible into German. In 1999, UNESCO added it to the World Heritage List. 



© fotos-aus-der-luft.de 

*10* 


*11* *Die drei *[three] *Gleichen* is a group of three castles in Thuringia between Gotha and Erfurt. Gleichen is the name of two groups of castles in Germany (The other group consists of two castles near Göttingen in Lower Saxony.), thus named from their resemblance to each other (German: gleich = like, or resembling).


*12* The Nuremberg-Erfurt high-speed railway line, which is scheduled to be opened in December 2017, crosses the Erfurt intersection with the A71. As you can see, Germany has a huge issue with graffiti, particularly on public property and infrastructure.


By me.


----------



## miumiuwonwon

*Road trip A4 from Bad Hersfeld to Chemnitz (Part Two)*

*13* 


*14* New and old (red arrow) between Weimar and Jena, Thuringia.


*15-18* We're entering the *Jagdbergtunnel* which was built from 2008 until 2014.








*19,20* Every day there're about 85.000 vehicles descending into the 600-meter long *Lobdeburg-Tunnel* near Jena, a university town and the second largest city in Thuringia. Noise pollution in this area will be dramatically reduced. Additionally a large green area has been built on the "roof" of the tunnel using the excavated and transported soil. All of this makes living in Jena considerably better. 




By me.


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## miumiuwonwon

*Road trip A4 from Bad Hersfeld to Chemnitz (Part Three)*

*21,22* The Hermsdorfer intersection with the A9 will be rebuilt during the next few years.


Current layout in gray, future layout in red.

© www.hermsdorf-regional.de

*23* We're approaching Gera, the third-largest city in Thuringia.


*24-28* From here on the landscape is a bit hilly. 










*29* The Chemnitz intersection with the A72. The colorful chimney ahead is a local landmark.


By me.


----------



## clickgr

cinxxx said:


> I just read about a terrible accident on the A6 near Nuremberg. Truck drove into car waiting behind another truck during congestion in a construction zone. It made the car an accordion bellow the truck in front. Family of 5 inside, husband badly injured, but mother and 3 small children all died. Also both truck drivers with medium injures.
> 
> http://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/...rg-fuenf-tote-bei-schweren-lkw-unfaellen.html


They must do something with all these trucks on the German roads! They are too many not only in the Autobahns but everywhere. They increase traffic and some times can be very dangerous for the cars. Perhaps should be a limit in the number of tracks acceding the roads and try to transfer more cargo services inside the country to the railways.


----------



## TrojaA

The transport minister of Baden-Württemberg Winfried Hermann (The Greens) doesn't cease from the idea of implementing speed limits on stretches of the A81 (Kreuz Hegau and Dreieck Bad Dürrheim) and the A96 (between Achberg and Aitrach).
He blaims drivers from Switzerland for speeding and so a speed limit is necessary to reduce their speed. It's going to be a model experiment for evaluating the impact of a speed limit on road behaviour and safety.

He brakes out again with this topic, although he stopped during the coalition negotiations with the CDU since he knew they didn't like the topic. When the CDU was an oppositional party they accused Mr. Hermann of willing to implementing a general speed limit by the back door.

Source: http://www.heise.de/autos/artikel/Baden-Wuerttemberg-Tempolimits-geplant-3210739.html (German)


----------



## Wilhem275

I wonder if any company or government is exploring the idea of retrofitting the new auto-brake systems (now they're quite reliable) to old trucks. At a modest price, it would make those "Stauende" accidents almost impossible.


----------



## g.spinoza

TrojaA said:


> He blaims drivers from Switzerland for speeding and so a speed limit is necessary to reduce their speed. It's going to be a model experiment for evaluating the impact of a speed limit on road behaviour and safety.


In Italy we have speed limits but that doesn't prevent Swiss drivers from speeding. It's amazing the share of Switzerland-plated cars going superfast on Italian motorways.


----------



## clickgr

g.spinoza said:


> In Italy we have speed limits but that doesn't prevent Swiss drivers from speeding. It's amazing the share of Switzerland-plated cars going superfast on Italian motorways.



The problem with the Swiss drivers is not the speed but the aggressive way of driving. German drivers drive fast too but only on good highways when there is no traffic. Swiss drivers are speeding in traffic, brake like racing and stuck behind slower cars impatiently to overtake.


----------



## cinxxx

^^I somehow have a feeling they are not doing the same in Switzerland...
When I drove there I got very frustrated by their slowish driving style and hogging the left lane.


----------



## clickgr

^^ Everybody knows how easy is to get ticket for speeding is Switzerland. When they are abroad they are trying to do what they can't do in their country.


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## ChrisZwolle

Wilhem275 said:


> I wonder if any company or government is exploring the idea of retrofitting the new auto-brake systems (now they're quite reliable) to old trucks. At a modest price, it would make those "Stauende" accidents almost impossible.


Yes, these truck accidents are almost always severe and often fatal. They cause huge traffic jams and can block motorways for hours or even a whole day. 

It's becoming increasingly common, and politicians only like to blame trucking companies for letting their drivers drive too long and under pressure. While possibly correct, the blame game isn't going to help anything. 

Truck driving in Europe doesn't seem so appealing to me. The speed limits are low, volumes are high so you spend 9 hours per day looking at another truck's rear at 80 km/h, parking is often overcrowded and roadside restaurants offer menus that will reduce your life expectancy.


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## ChrisZwolle

140 work zones are planned on the Autobahn in Nordrhein-Westfalen over the next two years. 

http://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/noch-mehr-staus-in-nrw-100.html

There are a lot of bridge replacement projects, particularly on A45 from Dortmund to Siegen, but also between Osnabrück and Münster.


----------



## kato2k8

Right now the A5 between Heidelberg and Walldorf in southbound direction is closed completely. They're resurfacing the right lane over a distance of 10 km, with a total of 50,000 m² being replaced.

This is how long it takes (bottom one):









Yes, a grand total of _106 hours_.

The shoulder in that area is currently being rebuilt so it can be used as an optional third lane in the future (above top item, taking 144 days for the same 10 km stretch while traffic can pass at 80 km/h).

The A5 in that section has around 90,000 vehicles AADT with about 13% trucks. Traffic is being moved to the A6 during the construction, which has a slightly lower AADT. The resurfacing is required due to the heat cracking that occurs occasionally here, affected the A5 in this section last summer in particular and is gauged to occur again this summer. The left lane will be resurfaced in a similar shut-down-and-work operation next year before summer.


----------



## Bender

ChrisZwolle said:


> 140 work zones are planned on the Autobahn in Nordrhein-Westfalen over the next two years.
> 
> http://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/noch-mehr-staus-in-nrw-100.html
> 
> There are a lot of bridge replacement projects, particularly on A45 from Dortmund to Siegen, but also between Osnabrück and Münster.


Nothing on the A1 bridge in Leverkusen? :bash:


----------



## MichiH

miumiuwonwon said:


> *21,22* The Hermsdorfer intersection with the A9 will be rebuilt during the next few years.


A complaint is still pending. Construction works will begin in 2026 at the earliest, renovation works for safety reasons will begin in June 2016 and cost 2.5 million € (news article from 14th April 2016). The state's Ministry of Transport wants to change the priority of BVWP 2030 projects, for instance, the priority of AK Hermsdorf reconstruction should be lowered compared to village bypasses (press release from 20th May 2016).



Bender said:


> Nothing on the A1 bridge in Leverkusen? :bash:


Construction works are announced to begin in 2017 (I still don't believe it).

Talking about bridges in Leverkusen...

The A1 elevated bridge b/n the Rhine bridge and the A3 interchange is seriously demaged. The section is not able to carry today's traffic (press release from 30th Novembe 2015). It is planend to be replaced by a tunnel or a new elevated bridge. Construction works will last 4-5 years (bridge variant) or 8 years (tunnel variant). Construction works will begin in 2027 at the earliest (news article from 20th May 2016).


----------



## MichiH

TrojaA said:


> The transport minister of Baden-Württemberg Winfried Hermann (The Greens) doesn't cease from the idea of implementing speed limits on stretches of the A81 (Kreuz Hegau and Dreieck Bad Dürrheim) and the A96 (between Achberg and Aitrach).
> He blaims drivers from Switzerland for speeding and so a speed limit is necessary to reduce their speed. It's going to be a model experiment for evaluating the impact of a speed limit on road behaviour and safety.
> 
> He brakes out again with this topic, although he stopped during the coalition negotiations with the CDU since he knew they didn't like the topic. When the CDU was an oppositional party they accused Mr. Hermann of willing to implementing a general speed limit by the back door.
> 
> Source: http://www.heise.de/autos/artikel/Baden-Wuerttemberg-Tempolimits-geplant-3210739.html (German)


Official press release from Mr. Hermann: > click <. He claims that the sections (near the Swiss border) have been chosen because they are north-south routes with low truck share.


----------



## Bender

MichiH said:


> Construction works are announced to begin in 2017 (I still don't believe it).


Yes but why is not listed then? Not that I look forward to the mess the construction will create... :lol:



> Talking about bridges in Leverkusen...
> 
> The A1 elevated bridge b/n the Rhine bridge and the A3 interchange is seriously demaged. The section is not able to carry today's traffic (press release from 30th Novembe 2015). It is planend to be replaced by a tunnel or a new elevated bridge. Construction works will last 4-5 years (bridge variant) or 8 years (tunnel variant). Construction works will begin in 2027 at the earliest (news article from 20th May 2016).


Germans should really take a break and think seriously about what's wrong with them. Seriously all the construction works I see take forever, not just road, everything. This is insanely inefficient.
Oh something's seriously damaged? Let's start in 10 years, no problem.
I am convinced 80% of the problem is purely administrative. 15 different administrations need to do their review work (slowly). If a signature is missing on page 129 of some secondary report, then you should start the whole thing again. And don't rush me! I am a Beamter!!

Inefficiency and red tape drive me nuts :bash:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

From a Dutch perspective the exceedingly slow progress of construction and the way things are done in Germany is astounding. Especially those Baustellen with only a few pieces of machinery and 3 people on them. I mean, isn't that driving Germans nuts? 

For example, the construction time of A46 near Bestwig is now estimated at 9 years. Of course, it has a tall bridge. But the bridge is already completed and yet they take another 2-3 years to complete the actual Autobahn. Why not do that simultaneously? The Millau Viaduct was built in 3 years.


----------



## detreinbek

I agree !! When I compare with other countries.... also with my second home Malaysia... Highwy construction in Germany need double to triple time. And.... other countries have also mountains and swamp in the ground.


----------



## TM_Germany

yeah, the inability to build anything at all is really astounding. It's not like projects are either slow OR expensive, they are alway both. And then they still are always behind schedule and over budget. Germany has come a long way in the last 30 years. It used to be the clean, efficient and always on-time country. Now it's just utter incompetence.


----------



## Wilhem275

And with an awful lot of political populism, if I may add.

(in good company with the rest of Europe, actually)


----------



## MichiH

Bender said:


> Yes but why is not listed then?


It is:



> http://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/noch-mehr-staus-in-nrw-100.html
> Auch die Staus vor der Leverkusener Rheinbrücke werden noch lange nicht aufgelöst sein: Ab 2017 wird hier auf der A1 das Großprojekt Brückenneubau beginnen.





TM_Germany said:


> yeah, the inability to build anything at all is really astounding. It's not like projects are either slow OR expensive, they are alway both. And then they still are always behind schedule and over budget.


I don't agree. I remember reading about some roads project which were on schedule and without additional costs .



TM_Germany said:


> Germany has come a long way in the last 30 years. It used to be the clean, efficient and always on-time country. Now it's just utter incompetence.


I think Germans are used to it and have accepted it. Germans love to complain but don't change anything. The think the correct term is "saturation", see German wikipedia article (individual saturation of the affluent society which is satisfied with status quo).


----------



## verreme

MichiH said:


> He claims that the sections (near the Swiss border) have been chosen because they are north-south routes with low truck share.


In other words, roads where speeding is safe.

The obsession of Greens with speed just because speed is something I just won't understand icard:


----------



## TM_Germany

Yeah, of course there are some projects that actually go as planned but it always _feels_ like there aren't any. And the German attitude of complaining and not doing anything is probably the biggest reason why it is as it is right now. Notice how few German members SSC actually has.

From what I get in conversations, infrastructure is taken for granted. That's actually rather German. Everything is expected to work perfectly. What I also notice is that people think that projects _have_ to be that slow. General feeling is that it's either done like in Germany, slow and expensive, or like in China, cheap and falling apart quickly. People aren't informed at how well-managed and quick projects get done in other countries - e.g. NL

I guess that, like you said, Germans are content with statues quo and don't really feel like acting to make it better. Maybe that's just another indication of how aged the German population is.


----------



## Turf

Really? I think it is just a matter of time before Germany must kick off a ridiculously big infrastructure scheme. Just makes sense. They have the money they just really need to want it. 
And about NL: 20 years ago nothing got build there also. So yes things can change. Actually German companies are building in NL.
I just hope for the big investments like the A20 will finally happen.


----------



## TM_Germany

well, one can hope but my hunch is that it won't matter anymore in 20 years or so, seeing how the demographics are currently. Whenever I see some project in eastern Germany proposed with a contruction start at 2025+ I always think: "What's the point? By the time that's finished, nobody lives there anymore." Also, one could argue that the only reason Germany has money is that nothing gets spent on infrastructure.


----------



## LtBk

It's not like demographics in Netherlands is any better. Anyways slow progress of major projects is rather a global problem.


----------



## TM_Germany

currently the NL has much better demographics than GER. It will continue to grow (slowly) in the next decades as the population is still young and thus more fertile. Germany will lose ~20 Mio people in the next decades (25% of the population) 

As for project speed: Sure there are projects that are dragging their feet everywhere (the big dig comes to mind) however these tend to be more exception than the norm. If you look at MichiH's lists, you can see how bad it is. on some particulary bad cases it takes nearly 10 years to build 10 km of Autobahn. I don't think it's that bad anywhere else.


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## LtBk

I won't call Netherlands a "young" country. The average age of Netherlands is 42-43, just a 3-4 years behind Germany. The fertility rate of NL has been below replacements for decades now. Besides births in DE are going up IIRC.


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## TM_Germany

You're right, however the NL will still keep growing for a while, while Germany already had it's population peak. Anyway, this is pretty OT, I suggest getting back on topic.


----------



## kato2k8

TM_Germany said:


> Germany will lose ~20 Mio people in the next decades (25% of the population)


Current projection is that Germany will keep its population up till the mit 2030s, although not in the same distribution. The last long-term projection for 2060 is minus 10-17%, although by now it's clear it'll be more likely less than 10% losses. This is relevant for the thread insofar as more recent projections show a significantly increasing re-urbanization in the next 20 years which leads to significantly less cross-country individual transport usage. The 2060 projection also shows a significant drop of the working-age population (by 23-30%) which negatively affects commuter mobility and positively affects industrial road transport.

The "By the time that's finished, nobody lives there anymore." line is rather apt. However, by that time we may need that road to import goods from due east.


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## TM_Germany

you're right, the projection got recently revised. One could argue about the intelligence of building Autobahnen solely for goods-transport, instead of working on intigrating the european rail systems but that's not really the point. Anyway, thanks for your more accurate numbers.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TM_Germany said:


> If you look at MichiH's lists, you can see how bad it is. on some particulary bad cases it takes nearly 10 years to build 10 km of Autobahn. I don't think it's that bad anywhere else.


Only Switzerland comes to mind. They have only a few projects and they are going at a very slow pace. 

The '10 years to construct one segment of Autobahn' issue is becoming increasingly more frequent, until 5 years ago there were maybe one or two projects at a time that took that long, but they are increasingly common. 

The situation is particularly problematic on A7 through Hamburg. Ever since they started the expansion of the Elbtunnel there has been more or less non-stop construction on the corridor over the past 20 years. 

Major construction on A7 through Hamburg:









The Elbtunnel in particular required a very long time. They started construction on the 4th tube in 1995 and it was completed in 2002. They then renovated the three other tubes, which took until 2013. 

Then they started the expansion of A7 north of the tunnel, which is a long-term project in several phases. They are going to build several 'lids' on top of the motoway (_Hamburger Deckel_). They're also planning to extensively renovate or replace the Hochstraße Elbmarsch south of the tunnel.


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Only Switzerland comes to mind. They have only a few projects and they are going at a very slow pace.


The UK?


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## ChrisZwolle

Some Swiss projects;

* A5 Biel/Bienne (east branch: 2007-2017)
* A5 Biel/Bienne (west branch: planned 2019-2030)
* A9 near Gampel (2004-2019)


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## Koesj

Are we looking at construction times only? The planning process takes loads of time in all kinds of places, but Baustellen along the same corridor for 28 years straight is a bit too much yeah.

I remember driving East with my family every summer and wondering how long it'd take to pass all the working zones on BAB2, but that didn't take nearly as long as the A7 through Hamburg methinks.


----------



## TM_Germany

Koesj said:


> Are we looking at construction times only? The planning process takes loads of time in all kinds of places, but Baustellen along the same corridor for 28 years straight is a bit too much yeah.
> 
> I remember driving East with my family every summer and wondering how long it'd take to pass all the working zones on BAB2, but that didn't take nearly as long as the A7 through Hamburg methinks.


The recontruction of BAB2 was part of the VDE-projects which handled planning, funding and construction somewhat better than usual, I think. Doesn't mean it was good by any means, though. Some projects aren't nearly finished 25 years after reunification.


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## ChrisZwolle

Another bridge problem. The Brudertal Bridge on A81 near Engen has been closed to all northbound traffic after the bearings were found to be in bad condition. It's unclear when the bridge will reopen.

http://www.suedkurier.de/region/kre...gen-kaputter-Lager-gesperrt;art372458,8725066


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## ChrisZwolle

TM_Germany said:


> The recontruction of BAB2 was part of the VDE-projects which handled planning, funding and construction somewhat better than usual, I think. Doesn't mean it was good by any means, though. Some projects aren't nearly finished 25 years after reunification.


It seems that the first 80% of such VDE projects are completed in relatively short time, but the last 20% takes just as much or even more time.

For example, 85% of A71 was completed over a period of 8 years. However, the final 15% took another 9 years. (184 km opened 1998-2006, 35 km opened 2008-2015).

It feels the same for those long-distance widening projects, such as A2, A4 and A9. The majority was delivered fairly quickly, but the remaining stretches required a much longer time to be completed.


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## Koesj

I guess some Landschaften are just Blühender than others.


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## detreinbek

Koesj said:


> I guess some Landschaften are just Blühender than others.


This make me smile


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another bridge problem. The Brudertal Bridge on A81 near Engen has been closed to all northbound traffic after the bearings were found to be in bad condition. It's unclear when the bridge will reopen.
> 
> http://www.suedkurier.de/region/kre...gen-kaputter-Lager-gesperrt;art372458,8725066


It was reopened yesterday after a "more than 24 hours closure".

http://www.suedkurier.de/region/kre...obahn-bei-Engen-wieder-frei;art372458,8727165


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## MichiH

A minor problem with construction of A7 widening north of Hamburg (PPP project). The construction planning (Bauausführungsplanung) of bridges and underpasses took much longer than expected. There's a delay for 13 buildings between 2 and 7 months. Two sections are delayed (to be completed in 1st quarter of 2017 instead of October 2016). The Hamburg section is also delayed, to be completed by 2nd quarter 2018 instead of 1st quarter 2018. However, the completion of the entire project is on schedule (to be completed by December 2018).








Source: Abendblatt (25th May 2016)

The graphic is wrong. Section 5a and 5b were already announced to be completed by March 2017 when construction works began.


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## MichiH

The construction of the next A26 section west of A7 is not on schedule. The plan approval order should be passed in early 2017 (instead of 2nd half-year 2016). Construction works could begin in 2018 at the earliest (previous announcement was 2017), the completion will be in 8 years at the earliest (2024, previous announcement was 2022). The project comprises 8.7km of new 2x2 A26 and 3.7km A7 widening. Complaints are likely. Source from 19th May 2016. However, the plan approval procedure of the next A26 section just east of A7 (1.9km) is still announced be begin in 2016. Source from 20th May 2016.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A46:* AS Bestwig – AS Nuttlar 5.6km (September 2009 to 2nd half-year 2016) – ? – map
> 
> It was announced that the expected construction period is seven years. There was no announcement about serious delays up to now. In April 2013 it was confirmed that the road should be opened "between Mid and End of 2016".
> 
> The 2.8km new distributor road (B480) will connect the A46 to the existing road network. There's an info about the 624m viaduct "Talbrücke Bermecke" (map) that its construction period is 3 years (source). The construction of the viaduct began earlier this year. That means, the A46/B480 opening should be 2018.
> 
> It's also planned to extend the A46 up to Brilon (B480; map) but the planning progess is damn slow (preliminary design phase is not yet completed). It should be B7 with 2+1 lanes.


A news article from December 2015 indicated a construction time of 3.5 years for Bermecke viaduct. Construction works began in Mid 2015. I thought that the section might be opened in late 2018 but I've suspected that it might be delayed to 2019.

The mayor of Bestwig reported in an interview, published on 24th May 2016, about a meeting with the project manager. The manger didn't announced any completion date but it sounded like the section would be opened in 2019.

A46 is planned to be extended by a realigned 2+1 B7n. It was announced in July 2013 that the preliminary design phase (Vorentwurfsphase) should be completed by 2014. However, it's still in progress and there's another problem with wildcats. The route must be changed (source from 16th April 2016). A new study is required (13th May 2016).


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## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> The "By the time that's finished, nobody lives there anymore." line is rather apt. However, by that time we may need that road to import goods from due east.


The population is decreasing but the mileage per person is still increasing. It's not a homogeneous development but for Germany in total. That means, traffic volumes around cities and transit routes might still increase while less vehicles will drive in remote regions.


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## ChrisZwolle

For a minute I thought I was in Poland, but it was in Magdeburg (B189).


B189 Magdeburg by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

*A14*

Some photos of A14 near Ludwigslust and Grabow / Karstädt, that opened on 21 December 2015.



A14-24 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-25 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-28 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-32 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-33 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-35 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-36 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-37 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-38 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-39 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-40 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-41 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-43 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-44 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-45 by European Roads, on Flickr


A14-47 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## detreinbek

my humble Wish..let all highways be so empty


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove B189 / B5 from Magdeburg to Schwerin (and partially back from Schwerin to Perleberg), and I noticed almost no traffic took the new segments of A14. At each interchange, nearly all traffic - including trucks - stayed on the old route. You can see that in particular between Groß Warnow and Karstädt, where the new A14 runs parallel to B5. A14 was empty while B5 had its share of trucks and cars. Perhaps people don't update their GPS.


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## SRC_100

ChrisZwolle said:


> *For a minute I thought I was in Poland*, but it was in Magdeburg (B189).
> 
> 
> B189 Magdeburg by European Roads, on Flickr


and next you reminded yourself that _*Aral *tankstelle _doesn`t exist in PL so you must be in DE.


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## Suburbanist

Why not use at least those semi-transparent noise barriers?


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## SRC_100

^^
Yeah, that would be much nicer


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## Christian_AT

detreinbek said:


> my humble Wish..let all highways be so empty


nice wish, but this is caused with different reasons:

- the opened segments are so short and the germans are unable to build temporary ends that it is a time loss to use the motorway, example is "Karstätt", 200m more motorway, 100m temporary link, close the normal B5 in this area that traffic automatically goes to the new A14 and have to exit:
https://www.google.at/maps/dir/53.1...05,11.7299905,1795m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

- for long tavel the important parts are missing, at the moment the route is shorter but a lot of not motorway, it is the decision go via the Berlin - ring
A) Karstätt - Wittenberge
B) Stendal west bypass
C) Magdeburg bypass
these 3 sections are the key, if they are built it is an option to choose the not finished A14 because more motorway and addiontally shorter route than now using this general route and not go via Berlin


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## ChrisZwolle

They are a good opportunity for motorists to pass a couple of trucks though. Trucks are limited to 60 km/h on German non-motorways. 

I was driving on B189 from Magdeburg to Stendal, not far from Colbitz there were three trucks driving 60/70 fairly close to each other, making it almost impossible to pass them unless you got a long straight stretch with no oncoming traffic, which almost never happens on busier routes. I didn't lose those trucks until past Stendal, which is an annoying 40 kilometer stretch of driving 60-70 km/h instead of 100.


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## ChrisZwolle

The alignment of the missing section of A143 at Halle has been chosen.

You can view a detailed PDF here: http://www.lvwa.sachsen-anhalt.de/f...er/Autobahn/02_uebersichtskarte_blatt01-D.pdf

News report: http://www.radiosaw.de/143-westumfahrung-halle-0


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Bayern (Germany) from Aschaffenburg to Kitzingen 22.03.2016 Timelapse x4 






Driving through Bayern (Germany) from Kitzingen to Nürnberg 22.03.2016 Timelapse x4





Driving through Baden-Wurtemberg (Germany) from Stuttgart to Mannheim 19.03.2016 Timelapse x4 





Driving from Mannheim to Limburg an der Lahn (Germany) 19.03.2016 Timelapse x4 






Driving through Nordrhein-Westfalen (Germany) from Mönchengladbach to Aachen 20.03.2016 Timelapse x4


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## ChrisZwolle

*Kanaltunnel Rendsburg*

There are a lot of problems with the renovation of the Kanaltunnel Rendsburg (1961), a 640 meter long immersed tunnel under the North Sea - Baltic Sea Canal in northern Germany. 

It now turns out that the renovation works take 8 years (!), which is longer than anticipated. The works started in 2011 and will likely not be completed before 2019. They will finish the east tube in June, and then start on the west tube. 

NDR reports: http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schle...ird-und-wird-nicht-fertig,kanaltunnel168.html

This is mind-boggling to me, in the Netherlands, the Velsen Tunnel (1957) is a few years older and slightly longer. The renovation of this tunnel requires only a 9 month closure, and the works also include an improved clearance for trucks, the tunnel is completely stripped. 

I drove through the Rendsburg tunnel in April 2011, just before they started the renovation works.

B77 Rendsburg tunnel Nord-Ostseekanal by European Roads, on Flickr


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## detreinbek

As already said here ... in Germany everything takes longer


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## Johnpet

The German Autobahn has taken on an almost legendary mystique. The reality is a little different than the legend. The myth of no speed limits is countered by the fact that Tempolimits are a fact of life on most of Germany’s highways, and traffic jams are common.


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## ChrisZwolle

I drove 2000 kilometers through Germany last week. There isn't that much high-speed driving anymore. The amount of motorists driving over 160 km/h is limited. Many Autobahns are also overloaded wit truck traffic making very high speeds impractical during the day.

A real obstacle in Germany is the large amount of _Baustellen_ or workzones. It varies by route but they are numerous and often cause traffic congestion when lanes are closed. I drove on A39 and there is a 12 kilometer Baustelle from Lüneburg to Hamburg with a 3-0 system. The carriageway towards Hamburg was completely stripped of pavement, but the Baustelle was entirely vacant, with no workers or machinery present, just a strip of sand where the pavement used to be.


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## LtBk

Is the road construction workforce lazy or corrupt?


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## TM_Germany

how has this got anything to to with the workers? They just do what they're paid to do, it's the management/policy/planing and funding that are to blame.


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## LtBk

Sorry, I was meant management and planning. Was it always this way?


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## TM_Germany

I think other people on this forum are more qualified to answer this question but generally, no. Germany has about ~19,000km of autobahn, so at current construction speeds it would have probably taken longer to build all of them than modern civilization has existed. :nuts: I think this is very much a problem of the last ~10-20 years


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## LtBk

From what I gathered it seems to be lack of money from the central government.


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## ChrisZwolle

TM_Germany said:


> how has this got anything to to with the workers? They just do what they're paid to do, it's the management/policy/planing and funding that are to blame.


I think we can assume the workers are professionals who know what they're doing. 

A large number of roadworks appear to be in operation only during office hours, and with a small contingent of workers. If you look at a widening project in the Netherlands or Denmark, there are a huge number of workers and machinery present all along the corridor, while in Germany you often see like 2 machines and 3 workers on a major _Talbrücke_ or widening project. That way it takes much longer to be completed.

For example, during a major weekend closure in the Netherlands there may be hundreds of workers present, sometimes even over a thousand, with 3 shifts per day. They often combine works that would require lane closures into a single night or weekend. So you can have one crew doing paving, another doing bridge joints, another demolition, another placing bridge beams, spread out along the corridor.



TM_Germany said:


> I think other people on this forum are more qualified to answer this question but generally, no. Germany has about ~19,000km of autobahn, so at current construction speeds it would have probably taken longer to build all of them than modern civilization has existed. :nuts: I think this is very much a problem of the last ~10-20 years


The German Autobahn system is approximately 13,000 kilometers long. The slow progress is not always the case, many DEGES projects are fairly quick (2-4 years of construction instead of 7-10). 

You indeed see projects today requiring twice or even three times the amount of time that was needed in the 1960s. I think this is also due to the tendering process. You can award the entire project to a consortium, or tender each item separately. Last year the A30 completion at Bad Oeynhausen got delayed by a year due to a € 1500 tender for scaffolding. The A71 opening north of Sömmerda was delayed by 5 months due to a tender for crash barriers. In both cases the tender was contested by a competitor.


----------



## Autostädter

In this context, these news could be interesting (dunno, has it been mentioned here?): 

The minister for infrastructure wants to create a federal agency responsible for planning and constructing Autobahns (Bundesautobahngesellschaft). This is now the responsibility of the Länder, while the financing comes from the federal budget. He hopes to speed up planning and construction processes. The road network is about to be overhauled on a large scale, which could be a problem as the transition to the new practice would take some years. The Länder are against the plan, but could agree in return for more money. http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/wirtschaftspolitik/kommentar-zur-bundesautobahngesellschaft-wer-zahlt-sollte-bestimmen-14142426.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Presently the _Länder_ (states) are responsible for planning and procedures. They also have to pay for that themselves, which could be in the range of 20% of the entire project cost. The _Bund_ (federal government) only pays for actual construction works. 

A criticism I frequently read is the lack of capacity among state road authorities to plan these projects. Sometimes there's funding allocated to a project without _Baurecht_ (not shovel-ready) while in other cases there are shovel-ready projects, but no funding. 

They hope to address these problems with the new _Bundesverkehrswegeplan_ (federal transportation plan) and a federal planning agency. 

Another problem in Germany appears to be the bureaucratic procedures and very expansive environmental assessment. For instance, at the Fehmarnbelt Tunnel which is 50/50 Danish and German, the Danish plan approval procedure had 1655 pages worth of documentation while the German side had over 11,000 pages. Something's off there.


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## Mathias Olsen

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another problem in Germany appears to be the bureaucratic procedures and very expansive environmental assessment.


My experience is that Northern Germany is faster than the South. The A1 Bremen-Hamburg went quick from 2x2 to 2x3, while we are still waiting for a 2x3 motorway between the East and the West in Southern Germany (A3/A6/A8)...


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## detreinbek

A1 HH-HB was given to a private company... read here
http://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article109419122/Autobahn-A1-wird-drei-Monate-frueher-fertig.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, this has to do with the funding structure (a PPP) as opposed to conventional funding. PPP projects are usually fast, requiring 4 years of construction, regardless of the project length. 

A PPP means all funding to complete the project is available from the beginning, which means they can build it as fast as they want. PPPs are increasingly operated as availability payments instead of shadow tolls, which reduces the risk for the taxpayer, but it also gives an incentive to the contractor to finish the works as fast as possible. Meanwhile, the 30 year concession to operate and maintain the Autobahn significantly reduces the incentive to cut corners on quality, because they have to pay for that themselves. In addition, most concession contracts include a handover in good condition, so they can't get away with not maintaining it the last 15 years.


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## Mathias Olsen

detreinbek said:


> A1 HH-HB was given to a private company...


In Southern Germany they also used PPP. On May 2007 the first Private Motorway project in Germany was on A8 München-Augsburg. It is the Road Transport Governance that counts, they are more in a hurry in the North than in the South.


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## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, this has to do with the funding structure (a PPP) as opposed to conventional funding. PPP projects are usually fast, requiring 4 years of construction, regardless of the project length.
> 
> A PPP means all funding to complete the project is available from the beginning, which means they can build it as fast as they want. PPPs are increasingly operated as availability payments instead of shadow tolls, which reduces the risk for the taxpayer, but it also gives an incentive to the contractor to finish the works as fast as possible. Meanwhile, the 30 year concession to operate and maintain the Autobahn significantly reduces the incentive to cut corners on quality, because they have to pay for that themselves. In addition, most concession contracts include a handover in good condition, so they can't get away with not maintaining it the last 15 years.


PPP means that private built, they get money fixed every month or parts of the truck tolls IF the upgrade ist finished, for the privates is important to build fast, take a credit and build to get money from the gouvernment

the funny situation in germany are 2 things:

1. the local areas are responsible for what is planed and they get their part of the piece of money if they have a project finished with ability to build, funny is a example, the new plan is that one region say a upgrade from 2+2 to 3+3 is urgently needed for a length of 31km at the end is the Rhine river and on the other side are 6km in another district, this one say no expansion is needed, funny because are the cars of the third needed lane are jumping in the river ?
https://www.google.de/maps/dir/49.5...563266,8.2842756,10.5z/am=t/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0
all projects ranked new (blue is very important, red important, orange not so)
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/autobahnen-hier-werden-strecken-ausgebaut-a-1089721.html

2. project management is very poor, they get money and build things with not make sence, for example at the moment perfect to see at google maps satelite image, as story told, motorway expansion from 2+2 to 3+3 a section as gap closing, connecting sections finished, in the middle of the last section a new big bridge, with track change and height level change it was difficult to connect the new bridge to the expanded motorway, but they built the new big expensive bridge first and after finishing it cant be used for 2 years befor the rest was finished
https://www.google.de/maps/@48.9338914,8.571817,1710m/data=!3m1!1e3
-> in this project use the money first for the other parts which can be used if they are finished and build this bridge as last piece of the whole project
-> use the money for finishing another project and use the money from the other project from later to build this bridge just in time

for me a complete logic project planing is missing, i have to calculate a possible open date and then i get automatically the answer in which month i need how much money, this is the best case for using available money, building things that cant be used for years is quite funny

next one, new motorway with big expensive bridge:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talbrücke_Nuttlar
https://www.google.de/maps/@51.3775468,8.4286036,1717m/data=!3m1!1e3
bridge main deck finished September 2013, yes than you need connection to the normal road, you need some toppings like pavement, but opening date of the new motorway 4 years after finishing the expensive bridge


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## kato2k8

Christian_AT said:


> funny because are the cars of the third needed lane are jumping in the river ?


A61 AADT, southeast to northwest for that section:
- AD Hockenheim (A6) to AS Hockenheim : 54906/day
- AS Hockenheim to AS Speyer (B9) : 51354/day
- AS Speyer to AS Schifferstadt : 41725/day
- AS Schifferstadt to AK Mutterstadt (A65) : 45033/day
- AK Mutterstadt (A65 to AK Ludwigshafen (A650) : 60964/day
- AK Ludwigshafen (A650) to AK Frankenthal (A6) : 68363/day

Realistically - from those numbers - what should be widened is the section between AK Frankenthal and AK Mutterstadt. In fact, that's the part that already has _Baurecht_ since last year. Cost for widening to 3+3 in that 13.5 km section is 91 million Euro.

Widening the 17 km section from Mutterstadt to Speyer is part of a larger project of Rhineland-Palatinate state in which they want the entire A61 on their state territory widened to 3+3, but which has been on the backburner for the past decade for lack of money (and which for partial projects like Mutterstadt-Speyer was cancelled for that reason too occasionally). In my opinion the project as a whole, aside from "we have to spend money on an Autobahn for our voters now!", is caused by fears that planned expansions in NRW will make the A61 even more attractive as a North-South route for people from the Netherlands.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> New expressways:
> _*B535:* AS Mannheim-Friedrichsfeld – AS Schwetzingen-Center (2x2) 1.9km (December 2010 to Mid December 2015) [2nd c/w] – project – map_
> 
> 
> 
> It's reported that it will be completed in Mid 2016, see news article. The railroad bridge was demolished last week, see pics.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's announced that it's planned to have 4 lanes in service from late June 2016, see press release.
Click to expand...

It's announced that it's planned to have 4 lanes in service from August 2016, see news article from 4th June 2016.




ChrisZwolle said:


> I found some more dates regarding the A23 upgrade near Itzehoe;
> 
> * 2 March 2006: first sod of the B5 to A23 upgrade
> * 10 January 2007: start construction new Stör Bridge
> * 25 February 2008: first new span installed
> * 19 June 2010: opening of the first new span
> * 26 October 2015: opening of the second span
> * June 2016: completion of the B5 to A23 upgrade
> 
> Total construction time from first sod to completion: 10 years and 3 months.


The official opening ceremony was yesterday. It's announced that it's planned to have 4 lanes in service from 8th July, see news article.


----------



## MichiH

*B27 Donaueschingen - Hüfingen / Behla*



MichiH said:


> The plan approval order for the *B27 b/n AS Donaueschingen (L180) and AS Hüfingen (B31)* was passed, see press release. It is planned to built a 2nd carriageway (2x2 with hard shoulders) and grade-separated intersections. The section has a length of 4.1km. Costs: 22.9 million € (OSM). The B27 already has 2x2 lanes (plus hard shoulders) b/n _Donaueschingen_ and _Bad Dürrheim_. The B27 is on the formerly planned A83 route. There is also an intersection with the A864 (Ex-A86). The AADT is about 20,000 vehicles per day on the approved section and b/n 26,000 and 33,000 vehicles on the 2x2 sections (> click <).





MichiH said:


> *project list* (groundbreaking 2016)
> 
> Baden-Württemberg (537 Mio €, thereof 37 Mio € preservation):
> 
> [...]
> 
> B27 Donaueschingen - Hüfingen 25 Mio €
> B27 Behla bypass 7 Mio €
> 
> [...]


The groundbreaking ceremonies of both projects took place today, see press release (2). The 2x2 widening is announced to be completed by late 2021 (25 million €; 4.1km). An interchange will replace the last at-grade intersection. The Behla bypass begins just 2km south of the widening section. It's a simple 2-laned bypass (8.1 million €; 1.9km) to be completed by late 2018 at the earliest.


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## ChrisZwolle

5,5 years for 4 km of second carriageway? Do they build them by hand like in the 19th century?


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> It's announced or expected that the construction of the following new motorway sections will begin in 2016:
> *A94:* north of AS Malching – north of AS Kirchham 6.0km (August 2016 to 2021/22) – project – map (BY; plan approval: 2006 – March 2013 (stopped); March 2013 – August 2015; immediate enforcement ordered; funded)
> 
> [...]
> 
> The A94 construction start was scheduled today, see press release. The 6km section costs 81 million € and includes a 450m artificial tunnel. The construction of the first bridge will begin in August 2016. The clearance works for the bridge are already completed. It's planned to open the section together with the 12.5km section b/n Kirchham and Pocking (A3) which does not yet have building permit.


Construction works of the first bridge already began. The official groundbreaking ceremony wil be on 26th July 2016. Source. It's planned to open both sections (see above) in 2022.


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## NordikNerd

I recently drove on road 191 from Celle to Uelzen and Luneburg and I saw a sign on a house about the locals wanting a motorway to be built.

Is there a plan to extend the A39 from Luneburg to Uelzen and connect it at Wolfsburg?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes it is in planning phase. 

If you can read German: http://www.strassenbau.niedersachse...igation_id=21141&article_id=78285&_psmand=135


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Of course! That's what German authorities do - including the Federal Ministry of Transport. It's perfect to get nice news article (thanks to Minister... thanks to member of parliament...) when construction works are funded, when preliminary construction works begin, when constructions works begin, when the groundbreaking ceremony takes place, when construction site is visited when the new road is opened for traffic, when the new road is offiicially opened,...


The Federal Minister of Transport, Mr. Dobrindt, has recently (today?) visited the western tube of the Oberau bypass tunnel. Source.
Mr. Dobrindt was already at the groundbreaking ceremony last September. Source.

I think the eastern tube should be visited too....


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## ChrisZwolle

An urban bridge across the Wertach River in Augsburg collapsed today during construction works.


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## bewu1

It is too often. These bridge collapses in DE.


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## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> An urban bridge across the Wertach River in Augsburg collapsed today during construction works.


An artictle about the accident : http://www.br.de/nachrichten/schwaben/inhalt/augsburg-ackermannbruecke-einsturz-100.html


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## ChrisZwolle

I think this will have some repercussions in the German construction sector. The bridge was deemed beyond repair in 2010, and the strength of the beams was specifically named as a problem. They built temporary supports to keep it in service until replacement started this year. They actually did static calculations for this work with the crane before construction started. The bridge weight was already reduced because the deck was partially removed. But it could have jeopardized the bridge's structural integrity.

And despite those earlier strengthening measures and calculations - it collapsed. And there are thousands - often municipal - bridges in Germany in a similar condition. It's your typical post-war urban bridge, they exist everywhere.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Everything is ok. No need to panic. This bridge collapsed during demolition works. 

It was just a bad idea by the two workers to drive a 30 t machine on an old and not stable bridge. :crazy:


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## ChrisZwolle

It looks like the A1 Rhine Bridge at Leverkusen won't reopen for light trucks up to 7.5 tons by the end of the year as was hoped. A 400 mm new crack has been discovered at the cable anchoring point. 

The bridge has been closed to all traffic over 3.5 tons since June 2014 due to the extremely poor condition. They are rapidly planning a new bridge across the Rhine. 

The crack will be repaired in August, which requires a full closure of the bridge to prevent it from swinging and interfering with the repairs.

The Rhine Bridge at Leverkusen is a cable-stayed bridge and opened in 1965. It was the final segment of the Autobahn Ring Road around Köln (Cologne) to open, making the city one of the first in Europe with a motorway ring.

Leverkusener Rheinbrücke Panorama by diezin, on Flickr


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## Bender

Great, I use this bridge every day.



> They are rapidly planning a new bridge across the Rhine.


you forgot the /s


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## ChrisZwolle

There is a frequent occurance of severe truck crashes in Germany. Many of these crashes involve one or more trucks driving into traffic jams, often at roadworks, with full speed, resulting in fatalities, damage and long delays.

12 July: family of 3 killed when a truck crushes a car + caravan on A7 near Kassel.
8 July: Truck crashes into traffic jam on A60 near Mainz, catches fire. Truck cabin decimated, driver killed
7 July: Three trucks crash into traffic jam on A14 near Halle.
7 July: 77-year old trucker crashes into stauende on A61 near Mörstadt
7 July: concrete mixer drives into traffic jam on A73.
7 July: the number of truck crashes rises 'dramatically' in the state of Sachsen-Anhalt 'häufig am stauende'.
6 July: Fatal truck accident on A2 near Irxleben, truck cabin completely detached from truck, drove into traffic jam.
5 July: Truck crashes into traffic jam on A6 near Mannheim, truck driver killed
4 July: 11 vehicles crash into traffic jam on A6 near Mannheim, 2 fatalities, 14 injured (exact same location as 5 July accident)
4 July: truck crashes into traffic jam on A57 near Neuss.

Now, Germany is a large country with a high volume of trucks, but this an important issue. The impact of trucks driving into traffic jams is almost always severe, often with fatalities or injuries and lot of damage and delays. Nearly all of these fatal truck crashes are associated with traffic jams at workzones. 

Perhaps they should secure traffic flow leading into workzones better. They sometimes utilize mobile traffic management gantries on locations without permanent active traffic management in the Netherlands. Perhaps this is something for Germany to consider.


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## detreinbek

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a frequent occurance of severe truck crashes in Germany...


A very good idea


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## bewu1

Perhaps 77 years old man should not be a truck driver.


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## Blackraven

bewu1 said:


> Perhaps 77 years old man should not be a truck driver.


I agree.

I don't want to be discriminating against old people and senior citizens.....but let's face it, it's better for 70+ year old person to just stay at home and enjoy retirement rather than doing driving for many hours each day.

The human body ages through time and the physicality of such a task would be too much for anyone in that age....


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## ChrisZwolle

Truck drivers over the retirement age appears to be relatively common. There was another crash on A1 near Hollenstedt yesterday where a 73-year old trucker crashed into a traffic jam.

_Ein laut ersten Polizeiangaben 73-Jähriger übersah gegen 16.15 Uhr offenbar das Stauende und landete mit seinem Brummi im Heck eines vor ihm fahrenden Lasters. Die Wucht des Aufpralls, war so groß, dass der Trucker in seinem Führerhaus eingeklemmt wurde._


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## kato2k8

Blackraven said:


> The human body ages through time and the physicality of such a task would be too much for anyone in that age....


Under European-wide rules, above age 50 (unless you got it after you turned 45, then from that date) all driver licenses for truck drivers have to be extended with a medical check up at least every 5 years.

Some countries - not Germany, of course - have tighter rules on top of that, e.g. in Austria from age 60 a checkup is required every 2 years.


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## kato2k8

ChrisZwolle said:


> Perhaps they should secure traffic flow leading into workzones better.


Such accidents with trucks plowing in the back end of a traffic jam rarely happen at construction sites, or rather near where traffic jams at construction sites* are predicted and can be managed; in fact you'll usually see trucks starting to actively "corral" traffic into construction sites themselves as soon as you see the first warning signs a couple km ahead.

* of course such jams will often get much longer during rush hour.


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## italystf

kato2k8 said:


> Under European-wide rules, above age 50 (unless you got it after you turned 45, then from that date) all driver licenses for truck drivers have to be extended with a medical check up at least every 5 years.
> 
> Some countries - not Germany, of course - have tighter rules on top of that, e.g. in Austria from age 60 a checkup is required every 2 years.


In Italy also licenses for car drivers (B category) need to be renewed every 5 years after the age of 50 (it's every 10 years before), and every year after the age of 80.
However medical tests aren't that serious (except of elderly people), unless one has some health issues, they only check wether you need glasses or not.
Some time ago a 93 years old Austrian guy was caught driving his car wrong way on A23 in Italy. His license was valid until 2023. :lol:


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## keokiracer

kato2k8 said:


> Such accidents with trucks plowing in the back end of a traffic jam rarely happen at construction sites, or rather near where traffic jams at construction sites* are predicted and can be managed;


Well, from Chris' list:



ChrisZwolle said:


> 12 July: family of 3 killed when a truck crushes a car + caravan on A7 near Kassel.
> 8 July: Truck crashes into traffic jam on A60 near Mainz, catches fire. Truck cabin decimated, driver killed
> 7 July: Three trucks crash into traffic jam on A14 near Halle.
> 7 July: 77-year old trucker crashes into stauende on A61 near Mörstadt
> 7 July: concrete mixer drives into traffic jam on A73.
> 7 July: the number of truck crashes rises 'dramatically' in the state of Sachsen-Anhalt 'häufig am stauende'.
> 6 July: Fatal truck accident on A2 near Irxleben, truck cabin completely detached from truck, drove into traffic jam.
> 5 July: Truck crashes into traffic jam on A6 near Mannheim, truck driver killed
> 4 July: 11 vehicles crash into traffic jam on A6 near Mannheim, 2 fatalities, 14 injured (exact same location as 5 July accident)
> 4 July: truck crashes into traffic jam on A57 near Neuss.


From top to bottom with Baustelle meaning a construction site within 3 kms of the location of the accident:
Baustelle
Baustelle
Baustelle
Baustelle
Baustelle
No Baustelle, because no specific accident but a general message
Baustelle
Baustelle
Baustelle
No Baustelle

But no, they don't occur near Baustellen hno: :|


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## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> Such accidents with *trucks plowing in the back end of a traffic jam* rarely happen at construction sites, or rather near where traffic jams at construction sites* are predicted and can be managed


No, they almost always happen exactly there!


----------



## kato2k8

keokiracer said:


> From top to bottom with Baustelle meaning a construction site within 3 kms of the location of the accident:


3 km is not near a construction site, that's at best the halfway point between two construction sites.

There is a managed zone ahead of a Baustelle. Unless it's a really, really major thing with rerouting this managed zone starts at around 800m to 1 km usually (with a first warning sign at 2 km), and drops speed to 80 km/h either there or within the next 300-500m.
Most accidents happen at the end of traffic jams if these start extending _beyond_ the managed zone.

Let's take the one where trucks crashed on successive days on the A6. Both labeled as "at construction site". Those accidents didn't happen at the nearby construction site. They actually both happened at AS MA-Sandhofen, two km ahead of it, where in the evenings a ton of rushhour traffic merges onto the Autobahn.
The construction site contributes to a traffic jam forming (not really; it's usually only a 30 km/h slow column) that can back up to AS Sandhofen and during rush hour sometimes well beyond that (friday evenings: up to 10 km) but isn't solely responsible either, the merging pattern at the AS in my opinion is highly crash-prone anyway: traffic coming from Mannheim onto the A6 westwards is forced onto the right lane with a concrete barrier with no way to move otherwise and no shoulder available (it's just as bad on the left lane since you'll have people moving at 70 km/h merging onto the right lane at this point then immediately swerve onto the left regardless of traffic coming from behind because they just have to overtake that truck ahead of them before the construction site). As a result traffic jams either form directly at this chokepoint, or due to oncoming braking traffic a few hundred meters before it on the A6. And that's where the accidents both occured.


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## keokiracer

kato2k8 said:


> 3 km is not near a construction site, that's at best the halfway point between two construction sites.


Yes, they happen in the traffic jams caused by the Baustellen, that's what I said and what you said wasn't true.

Also, 3 km is not at best halfway between Baustellen, that's 10km-ish (nationwide average)


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## kato2k8

Nationwide average yes, within the areas affected not.


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## ChrisZwolle

Today's Friday traffic was horrendous in Germany, nearly all Autobahn stretches between cities had one or more traffic jams, in many cases in both directions. Over 2 hours delay was reported on A7 near Hamburg and A9 between Ingolstadt and München. And many, many, many traffic jams formed near workzones. 

I'm thinking that Germany could have much less congestion if they had roadworks like in the Netherlands. Basically the Autobahn capacity is not that problematic, it's the extreme amount of workzones that affect traffic flow - even if the number of lanes is not reduced.


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## TM_Germany

now that we inreasingly integrating our militarys I advocate for our respective infrastructure authorities to intigrate next :yes: I know you dutch won't have much use for our traffic engineers but nobody will mind if you just lock them in the basement whenever they get annoying :lol: But who knows, I guess many of the construction fails are due to the as-cheap-as-possible policies so they might not be as useless as you might expect from the condition of Germany's Autobahnen. 

No but seriously, can't you invite Mr. Dobrindt and his buddies the next time you build something major and show them how it's done?


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## ChrisZwolle

The minister of _Bauen, Wohnen, Stadtentwicklung und Verkehr_ in Northrhine-Westphalia Michael Groschek visted the Netherlands and was impressed;

_In drei Monaten haben die Niederländer die neue Querung über die Hafenautobahn A 15 fertiggestellt. Inklusive Abbruch der alten Brücke – die nicht mehr lang genug war, als die Autobahn verbreitert wurde – wie ein niederländischer Bauexperte dem Gast aus Deutschland erzählt. „Drei Monate“, wiederholt Groschek – und formt dabei eine extra lange „dreeeiiiiii“.

„Bei uns“, sagt schließlich Nicole de Witt, Groscheks Brückenspezialistin vom Landesbetrieb Straßen-NRW, „hätte der Bau zwischen einem und anderthalb Jahren gedauert“. _

Groschek was surprised by the Dutch bridge construction process, where it takes 3 months to replace a bridge. In Germany it would have taken between 12 and 18 months.


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## ChrisZwolle

Holiday traffic has been terrible all night long in Bavaria.

I checked just before midnight and there were multiple stretches of Autobahn with more than 1 hour delay, especially A3 traffic is extremely congested, at that time there was a combined delay of 3 hours between Frankfurt and Regensburg. There were also long delays on A9 from Nürnberg to München.

Someone else checked around 3:30 a.m. several long traffic jams on A3 and A9, with delays over 1.5 hours.

TomTom reports a 28 kilometer traffic jam on A3 from Nürnberg to Regensburg, with a delay of over 90 minutes due to roadworks near Neumarkt i.d. Oberfpalz.

Many people travel during the night to 'avoid traffic' which is obviously not working.


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## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> Groschek was surprised by the Dutch bridge construction process, where it takes 3 months to replace a bridge. In Germany it would have taken between 12 and 18 months.


A case in point, the small bridge (40 meters) of A3 over State Road 2240 near Neumarkt in der Oberpfalz is being replaced. There is a 3-0 workzone, meaning only 1 lane for traffic in the direction of Regensburg.

This causes incredible traffic congestion, with 1 hour+ delays all day long. Even at 3:30 a.m. last night there was a 16 kilometer traffic jam with 1.5 hours delay. :nuts: Currently (almost 8 p.m.) nearly all traffic jams in southern Germany have disappeared, except this one, 14 kilometer _Stau_ with 1 hour delay...

It turns out the bridge replacement is a long-term project, it takes almost a year to replace one half of the bridge, so nearly 2 years of construction (and severe traffic impact) except during the winter pause. In the Netherlands a similar project requires only 12 weeks.


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## Jozef77

ChrisZwolle said:


> A case in point, the small bridge (40 meters) of A3 over State Road 2240 near Neumarkt in der Oberpfalz is being replaced. There is a 3-0 workzone, meaning only 1 lane for traffic in the direction of Regensburg.
> 
> This causes incredible traffic congestion, with 1 hour+ delays all day long. Even at 3:30 a.m. last night there was a 16 kilometer traffic jam with 1.5 hours delay. :nuts: Currently (almost 8 p.m.) nearly all traffic jams in southern Germany have disappeared, except this one, 14 kilometer _Stau_ with 1 hour delay...
> 
> It turns out the bridge replacement is a long-term project, it takes almost a year to replace one half of the bridge, so nearly 2 years of construction (and severe traffic impact) except during the winter pause. In the Netherlands a similar project requires only 12 weeks.


thats Germany for you. everything takes ages nowadays. too many rules.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Holiday traffic has been terrible all night long in Bavaria.


A long traffic jam (2h delay) on A3 b/n Regensburg and Passau was already reported on Saturday 6AM because of a construction site. In addition, a 2h delay on A9 Nuremberg - Munich.

I drove in Bavaria this morning. There was no traffic jam reported on the radio at 6AM! First reports began at 7:30 AM. A3 Frankfurt - Würzburg, A9 Nuremberg - Munich and A8 Munich - Salzburg had problems all the day...

A3 Regensburg-Passau was not reported today though.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Magdeburg*

I filmed the 'Stadtautobahn' (urban expressway) through Magdeburg last month. It's a four-lane expressway right through the city. As explained in the video, it carries three road numbers (B81, B71 & B189). It also includes a tunnel under the Mittelland Canal north of Magdeburg.


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## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> A case in point, the small bridge (40 meters) of A3 over State Road 2240 near Neumarkt in der Oberpfalz is being replaced. There is a 3-0 workzone, meaning only 1 lane for traffic in the direction of Regensburg.
> 
> This causes incredible traffic congestion, with 1 hour+ delays all day long. Even at 3:30 a.m. last night there was a 16 kilometer traffic jam with 1.5 hours delay. :nuts: Currently (almost 8 p.m.) nearly all traffic jams in southern Germany have disappeared, except this one, 14 kilometer _Stau_ with 1 hour delay...
> 
> It turns out the bridge replacement is a long-term project, it takes almost a year to replace one half of the bridge, so nearly 2 years of construction (and severe traffic impact) except during the winter pause. In the Netherlands a similar project requires only 12 weeks.


for me is this funny, if we drive longer distances we always make short brakes/ driver changes and then take a look for example at google maps and additional listen to the radio

traffic jam the whole day, took a look at the map, reaction:
1.direct link nürnberg -> regensburg +60min or more

2.alternative, map oh direct route is direction south-east, other option
2a. nürnberg go east A6 to Amberg
2b. then B85 to Schwandorf
2c. A93 south and reach Regensburg
-> only about 30km more, google maps no traffic disruption +17mins quite better than 60-120 min

stupid drivers get stupid waiting time in their holiday, not use modern technologies is your own fault and funny to watch


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Once again a whole family was killed on the Autobahn when a truck crashed into a traffic jam at full speed. It happened last night on A1 near Hamburg-Billstedt, where a traffic jam formed at roadworks. The truck likely plowed into the car at highway speed, crushing the car into another truck, killing the family of 4. hno:


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## Pepov

I am not surprised by this, considering that truck drivers are watching tv (with subtitles!), reading books, making meals - all these during driving. Horrible. I hope automatic braking systems will be widely introduced within next few years.
Funny thing about traffic jams is that people dont avoid them by small detours. There are traffic infos in radio, TMC etc. and people still sits in traffic jams. Cars < 3,5 t can go almost all roads so its easy. Bad thing in navi era is that people dont take paper maps with them anymore... Maybe its the reason too.


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## g.spinoza

Pepov said:


> Bad thing in navi era is that people dont take paper maps with them anymore... Maybe its the reason too.


But modern gps navigators can detect traffic jams and calculate detours...


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## MichiH

Pepov said:


> Funny thing about traffic jams is that people dont avoid them by small detours. There are traffic infos in radio, TMC etc. and people still sits in traffic jams.


It depends on the kind of traffic jam. Most jams are just stop&go without losing much time. Using detours makes only sense if there is a 'parallel' road which really saves time. I'm used to stay on Autobahn and I've never lost too much time. Detours are often jammed too and don't save time except if there's a total closure (which I've never had).

Nevertheless, I lost more than 1 hour just 2 weeks ago because my GPS was fooling me. A delay of more than 1 hour was reported and a convenient detour was offered. I listened to the radio and they confirmed a 10km+ traffic jam due to a truck accident on A1 east of AK Bremen. It was more than 1 hour ahead and I stopped for a rest just in front of Bremen. Afterwards, my GPS only showed a 2 minutes delay and no detour suggestion. I've triggered a TMC update but no noticable delay anymore. I took A1 instead of driving through Bremen and lost about 1 hour 20 minutes because of stop & go for more than 10km. I thought about leaving Autobahn but couldn't find any reasonable detour manually.


Generally, accidents at the end of traffic jams can always happen anywhere. It's not possible to avoid any situation except of not driving anymore.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A14*

The plan approval process has been completed for a segment of A14 from Colbitz to Tangerhütte (8 km), which is north of Magdeburg. There were no objections against a supplemental plan approval order.

The next step would be to obtain the € 65 million in funding needed to construct this segment. According to the state, this shouldn't be a problem as Sachsen-Anhalt has always quickly obtained federal funding for shovel-ready projects. They expect preliminary work to start later this year. 

http://www.presse.sachsen-anhalt.de...2&identifier=1dc02379580dd7164468036894f01bfd


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## Pepov

MichiH said:


> Detours are often jammed too and don't save time except if there's a total closure (which I've never had).


You don't drive a lot, or you are just lucky man  It happens quite often, and the bad thing is a delay in radio traffic info or false info. Once i was standing 5 hours on A7 near Hann. Munden (very dangerous point, something happens there almost every day :nuts: ) The radio told just "ungesichert unfallstelle", but there was total disaster with 2 trucks, lots of oil on the surface at 2 km...

Why they dont put warning signs + speed limit AFTER roadworks on autobahn? Lately i got hit by the rock on the autobahn which was previously renovated (and got to change the windscreen hno: )


----------



## MichiH

Pepov said:


> You don't drive a lot, or you are just lucky man


Or just clever . I usually don't drive Friday afternoon, try to avoid rush hour* or summer holiday weekends.

I often drive from west of Würzburg to Stuttgart for business.
- There are many construction sites on A3 (2x3 widening). I usually drive there early in the morning (<6AM) or take a detour via Landstraßen.
- A81 b/n Heilbronn and Stuttgart is usually very busy during rush hour. For that reason, I try to drive there < 7AM or > 9AM. Nevertheless, I never had a major accident with closure there. I've never stopped longer than 5 minutes there, it's always stop & go. It does only happen very rare that there's no stop & go period or minimum a short period with reduced speed on 2x3 A81 (~50km/h).



Pepov said:


> It happens quite often, and the bad thing is a delay in radio traffic info or false info.


I often see long jams on the opposite carriageway. Maybe I'm really a lucky man . I already drove more than 20,000km in 2016...



Pepov said:


> Why they dont put warning signs + speed limit AFTER roadworks on autobahn? Lately i got hit by the rock on the autobahn which was previously renovated (and got to change the windscreen hno: )


I think that's just bad luck. I even think that the warnings + speed limit remains too long on sections renovated and new sections. It's annoying and most people ignore it and drive faster! I think if you drive slow a stone can hit you anyway if other cars drive faster. You cannot avoid it by driving slow.

I had some cracks in windshields but it never happened near construction sites...


----------



## Autostädter

This article about surging truck accidents at traffic jams blames the use of smartphones and laptops while driving. It says that 60 km/h speed limits and driving assisting systems make driving more monotonous. Emergency braking systems are seen as a solution.

http://www.eurotransport.de/news/lkw-unfaelle-am-stauende-haeufen-sich-nicht-mehr-normal-8288480.html


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## MichiH

geogregor said:


> Why is that? Do media report them more often in Germany or something else is going on?


It's happening for years... I remember 2x3 widening of A1 b/n Bremen and Hamburg (2008-2012; 16 fatalities) when accidents like this happened quite often.



Autostädter said:


> This article about surging truck accidents at traffic jams blames the use of smartphones and laptops while driving. It says that 60 km/h speed limits and driving assisting systems make driving more monotonous. Emergency braking systems are seen as a solution.
> 
> http://www.eurotransport.de/news/lk...e-haeufen-sich-nicht-mehr-normal-8288480.html


hno: Bullshit. The only solution is staying at home... The question is, why does it happen more frequently in Germany compared to neighboring countries?


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## Autostädter

MichiH said:


> hno: Bullshit. The only solution is staying at home... The question is, why does it happen more frequently in Germany compared to neighboring countries?


I would say that we probably have more long-term road works than other countries, therefore more traffic jams. Basically, we are also a very large country and an important transit country for trucks and other traffic. So there's a lot of traffic here in general.


----------



## MichiH

Autostädter said:


> I would say that we probably have more long-term road works than other countries, therefore more traffic jams. Basically, we are also a very large country and an important transit country for trucks and other traffic. So there's a lot of traffic here in general.


Agree. But your news article is reporting about other stuff. I don't think that truck driver drive careless in Germany than in other countries.

I think the article is just an excuse of stupid Germans...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, the extreme amount of construction zones significantly increases the chances for congestion on the Autobahn. During this summer it seems as if almost all congestion is due to construction. 

Common causes mentioned in the media include truckers who are distracted by a phone or tablet, a while ago a trucker plowed into another truck on A4 near Aachen. He was recovered dead, but had a laptop in his lap...

Some of these severe crashes occur at night, when traffic congestion is less predictable due to the low traffic volumes. However, for a truck to plow full speed into stationary traffic at night, that means the driver must've had his eyes off the road for a very long period of time. That's not a 3-second distraction.


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## Autostädter

MichiH said:


> Agree. But your news article is reporting about other stuff. I don't think that truck driver drive careless in Germany than in other countries.


The constant large number of road works comes up in the media from time to time, however the question, whether this is down to bad planning and could be avoided, is hardly ever asked. That's my impression, but I have only really been paying attention to this topic since it came up on this thread recently.


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## Attus

Motorway A1 will be closed from this night up to Monday morning between Leverkusen and Köln-Niehl, i.e. the Rhine bridge, in both directions. As already reported several times in this forum, this bridge has a very bad state of repair, now some tears have to be repaired urgently.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Rheinbrücke Leverkusen*

The Rhine River Bridge at Leverkusen (Rheinbrücke Leverkusen) was closed over the weekend (see Attus' post). The traffic impact was not extreme, though Friday afternoon logged a northbound delay of 1.5 hours via A4 and A3. But otherwise it wasn't too bad. 

They are going to build a physical width restriction near the bridge to prevent the last 150 trucks per day from driving over the bridge. It will be similar to those used on A6 near Saarbrücken, A643 near Mainz and B44 in Ludwigshafen. 

There will be 200 meter long concrete barriers with a width of 2.2 m on the two left lanes, and a 3.75 m wide lane on the right with a measuring device, traffic lights and a gate that will close if a truck attempts to drive through it. The speed limit will be reduced to 40 km/h. It will be operational late September or early October.

It is expected that this configuration will cause additional congestion, as all traffic has to slow down to 40 km/h and drive through narrow lanes. It will be a permanent fixture until the first new half of the bridge is completed, which is planned for 2020. 

The width restriction on the Fechinger Talbrücke of A6 near Saarbrücken:


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## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> They are going to build a physical width restriction near the bridge to prevent the last 150 trucks per day from driving over the bridge. It will be similar to those used on A6 near Saarbrücken, A643 near Mainz and B44 in Ludwigshafen.


Is there any plan to repair or to build new bridge on A6 near Saarbrücken ?


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## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> and a 3.75 m wide lane on the right with a measuring device, traffic lights and a gate that will close if a truck attempts to drive through it.


So a vehicle over 2.2 m but under the limited weight (typically vans and RVs) will be allowed on the bridge?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It looks like it, yes. The weight limit is 3.5 tons.


----------



## celevac

Without following this thread too closely - I was on a business trip in Denmark last week and drove German A3+A7 from Pocking border all the way to Flensburg. I can't believe how many road works there were. Never seen so many on one motorway in my whole life. Especially A7 was a nightmare with most bridges at a 80km/h limit and the section from Hamburg towards the Danish border where there are endless road works. Once you get out of the construction site, you can't get ahead because of trucks on both lanes driving 90 km/h. :wallbash:

Now my question is - do they actually work on those bridges and widening projects? Because I haven't really seen any activity on site. Seems like they just reduced the speed limit on the damaged bridges and wait what happens!?


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## ChrisZwolle

You mean stuff like this? Many bridges of A7 are in poor condition. I took this photo in June on a bridge in the vincity of Fulda. They split the lanes to reduce the load and stress on the bridge. 


A7 talbrücke by European Roads, on Flickr

Another situation on A1 near Dortmund. They moved the lanes outward on a newer part of the bridge to reduce the load on the older (inner) part of the bridge.

It has been reported that basically all bridges on A1 near Dortmund, including small underpasses, need to be demolished.


A1 Kamen by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

A very large truck parking area has been built at Raststätte Kraichgau-Süd along A6 from Heidelberg to Heilbronn. According to a media report, it has 288 parking spots for trucks, which may be the largest online parking area in Germany.

The parking on the lower right belongs to a stadium.


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## A448

It's so bad to see that the progress on building new truck stops is so slow. There should be enough open space next to the Autobahnen that pass through rural and flat areas like e.g. Niedersachsen. In general, Germany needs to spend waaay more money on infrastructure IMO...


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## ChrisZwolle

_Arbeiten an der A 8 zwischen Schwemlingen und Wellingen sind dem Zeitplan voraus_

A8: AS Merzig-Wellingen – AS Merzig-Schwemlingen 3.5km (April 2015 to November 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map

_Bis Ende 2018 soll der Verkehr über die vierspurig ausgebaute Autobahn laufen. _

http://www.saarbruecker-zeitung.de/...schaft-Projektleiter-Merzig;art446556,6225166

So the project is 'ahead of schedule', but it will open a year later than on MichiH's list. :lol:


----------



## Bender

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is expected that this configuration will cause additional congestion, as all traffic has to slow down to 40 km/h and drive through narrow lanes. It will be a permanent fixture until the first new half of the bridge is completed, which is planned for 2020.


******* Hell hno:

4 years is what they need to build a roundabout in Germany. I doubt we will see any half bridge completed in 2020.
But I am being negative. Surely a legion of hard-working planners, politics, engineers and technicians are finalizing the latest details of the construction plan as I am writing this email :lol:


----------



## Heico-M

ChrisZwolle said:


> _Arbeiten an der A 8 zwischen Schwemlingen und Wellingen sind dem Zeitplan voraus_


I actually had to read that one twice :lol:


----------



## MichiH

Luki_SL said:


> Is there any plan to repair or to build new bridge on A6 near Saarbrücken ?


Yes, planning procedure and construction will last minimum 8 years though. The Saarland Ministry of Transport has announced to hire additional employees. Estimated construction costs: 60 million €. The viaduct is announced to be opened for trucks by the end of 2016.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A31 Meppen*

A31 near Meppen is being renovated until 2018. They are widening the carriageway by 0.5 m and are installing new crash barriers. In addition, they will replace the pavement and repair bridges. This stretch of Autobahn opened to traffic in 1994.

I was bored today, so I decided to take a test drive with my other dashcam in my new car, so I drove to Meppen and back (200 kilometers).

I took a few photos from an overpass north of the Meppen cloverleaf.

1. There is a 2-0 construction zone, all lanes run on the northbound carriageway. There is a shoulder in the direction of Oberhausen.

Baustelle A31 Meppen-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. The end of the construction zone near the B402 cloverleaf.

Baustelle A31 Meppen-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. 

Baustelle A31 Meppen-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. They were stripping the pavement. It's a continuous process with trucks driving on and off all the time.

Baustelle A31 Meppen-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. 

Baustelle A31 Meppen-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. 

Baustelle A31 Meppen-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

7. 

Baustelle A31 Meppen-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## MichiH

celevac said:


> Without following this thread too closely - I was on a business trip in Denmark last week and drove German A3+A7 from Pocking border all the way to Flensburg. I can't believe how many road works there were. Never seen so many on one motorway in my whole life. Especially A7 was a nightmare with most bridges at a 80km/h limit and the section from Hamburg towards the Danish border where there are endless road works. Once you get out of the construction site, you can't get ahead because of trucks on both lanes driving 90 km/h. :wallbash:
> 
> Now my question is - do they actually work on those bridges and widening projects? Because I haven't really seen any activity on site. Seems like they just reduced the speed limit on the damaged bridges and wait what happens!?


I absolutely agree!

I guess you left A3 at AK Biebelried (east of Würzburg). That means, you missed the A3 Aschaffenburg - Würzburg which is the most congested "Baustellen" Autobahn in southern Germany. It's everyday on the traffic news. 10km+ jams likely.

A7 widening north of Hamburg is a PPP project and construction is to be completed within 5 years which is quite good. Conventional widening projects typically last about 3-5 years per section.......


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> A very large truck parking area has been built at Raststätte Kraichgau-Süd along A6 from Heidelberg to Heilbronn. According to a media report, it has 288 parking spots for trucks, which may be the largest online parking area in Germany.


It was enlarged and opened in December 2015. Raststätte Kraichgau-Nord - just at the westbound carriageway - is also planned to be enlarged. It was announced that construction works should begin in Mid 2016. Estimated construction period: 1 1/2 years.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The parking on the lower right belongs to a stadium.


Football stadium Sinsheim. It's the home of TSG 1899 Hoffenheim.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> _Arbeiten an der A 8 zwischen Schwemlingen und Wellingen sind dem Zeitplan voraus_
> 
> A8: AS Merzig-Wellingen – AS Merzig-Schwemlingen 3.5km (April 2015 to November 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map
> 
> _Bis Ende 2018 soll der Verkehr über die vierspurig ausgebaute Autobahn laufen. _
> 
> http://www.saarbruecker-zeitung.de/...schaft-Projektleiter-Merzig;art446556,6225166
> 
> So the project is 'ahead of schedule', but it will open a year later than on MichiH's list. :lol:


I read news articles like that quite often...

It was annouced that 4 lanes will be available in "winter 2017", source (I guess it means winter 2017/18). A press release for the groundbreaking ceremony (it's no longer online but that's why I always copy the text, it's the 2nd press release: http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?6,1868,176556#msg-176556) reported that the 3rd construction phase is to be completed by November 2017. That's why I thought 4 lanes should be available in November 2017. It's planned to renovate the existing carriageway in 2018 though. I think that's why the news article ends with the suboptimal sentense that 4 lanes should be available in late 2018... Journalists...


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## Christian_AT

celevac said:


> Without following this thread too closely - I was on a business trip in Denmark last week and drove German A3+A7 from Pocking border all the way to Flensburg. I can't believe how many road works there were. Never seen so many on one motorway in my whole life. Especially A7 was a nightmare with most bridges at a 80km/h limit and the section from Hamburg towards the Danish border where there are endless road works. Once you get out of the construction site, you can't get ahead because of trucks on both lanes driving 90 km/h. :wallbash:
> 
> Now my question is - do they actually work on those bridges and widening projects? Because I haven't really seen any activity on site. Seems like they just reduced the speed limit on the damaged bridges and wait what happens!?


your route was a bad choice

Regensburg - A3 - A7 - Hannover

or the same distance with better motorways:

Regensburg - A93 - A72 - A9 - A14 - A2 - Hannover

i had to go often to Hannover and only one time we use A3-A7, the way back the other option and then always over Magdeburg/Halle, in east germany the motorways are in better condition


----------



## Attus

^^ I drove several times from Hungary to Denmark and I always (except for the very first time) choose that route via Hof - Magdeburg - Braunschweig. A little bit more complicated on the map but better to drive.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Christian_AT's route is much better but A2 might be a problem and you still have the A7 Hannover - Hamburg - Bordesholm.

The partially u/c A14 could solve the problem on the way to Hamburg/Denmark but the still announced completion date (2020) is impossible and I have no hope that it'll be completed "soon". Minimum the Elbe crossing section may take much longer but a short gap should be a minor problem.

btw: A7 2x3 widening (8km) b/n AD Walsrode (A27) and Bad Fallingbostel has recently been started. To be completed by fall 2019, estimated construction costs: 58.3 million €, see press release (2).

8km 2x3 widening takes 3 years but 2 additional sections are still to be widened somewhere down the road.
65km 2x3 widening north of Hamburg takes only about 4 years (8 sections)...


----------



## celevac

MichiH said:


> ^^ Christian_AT's route is much better but A2 might be a problem and you still have the A7 Hannover - Hamburg - Bordesholm.
> 
> The partially u/c A14 could solve the problem on the way to Hamburg/Denmark but the still announced completion date (2020) is impossible and I have no hope that it'll be completed "soon". Minimum the Elbe crossing section may take much longer but a short gap should be a minor problem.
> 
> btw: A7 2x3 widening (8km) b/n AD Walsrode (A27) and Bad Fallingbostel has recently been started. To be completed by fall 2019, estimated construction costs: 58.3 million €, see press release (2).
> 
> 8km 2x3 widening takes 3 years but 2 additional sections are still to be widened somewhere down the road.
> 65km 2x3 widening north of Hamburg takes only about 4 years (8 sections)...


Thanks for the feedback and suggestions - I will keep that in mind for next time. :cheers1:
Can't wait to find out if they manage to finish that long widening section on A7 within the 5-year-period :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A14 is being renovated, they are replacing the concrete that is affected by 'concrete cancer'. There are frequently traffic jams in the northbound direction past Halle.


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## ChrisZwolle

Another case of a truck plowing into a traffic jam, this time on A61 near Koblenz. A Dutch trucker plowed into a car + travel trailer (caravan) and destroyed the trailer and came to a stop on top of the car. The car occupants were also Dutch, the driver was killed and his wife was taken to the hospital. hno:


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## miumiuwonwon

Speaking of road construction work, I drove twice along the Autobahn 9 between Saxony and Nuremberg during the past two weeks and took some pictures of the recent road construction work there. Can you count how many road construction sites appear in my pictures below, alone on the stretch between TROCKAU(322,7 km) and KREUZ NÜRNBERG(372,8 km)? :nuts:


*Southbound*. Typical traffic of a weekday on the A9.


Sometimes a small accident can cause huge tailbacks. And most of the time it's too late for police to handle them.


The winding road is quite eye catching when you are driving it down. 


Half of road being repaved at the Raststätte "Fränkische Schweiz/Pegnitz".




Look who's woking there! :lol:






Where there is a Baustelle there's Stau.


Well, sometimes you may see an exception... Sometimes...


Baustelle again after a few kilometers' "free ride".










Once you see those railroad bridges, you know you're approaching Nuremberg.


It always a nightmare driving around Nuremberg.


By me.


----------



## miumiuwonwon

*Northbound*. Starting from Nuremberg.






Two weeks earlier on the same place. Who says the Germans are not efficient?! :lol:










It's around 9pm in Sunday evening. So enjoy the ride!


By me.


----------



## Blackraven

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another case of a truck plowing into a traffic jam, this time on A61 near Koblenz. A Dutch trucker plowed into a car + travel trailer (caravan) and destroyed the trailer and came to a stop on top of the car. The car occupants were also Dutch, the driver was killed and his wife was taken to the hospital. hno:


Tsk tsk 

How many more innocent people have to perish due to such incidents? hno:


----------



## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> Raststätte Kraichgau-Nord - just at the westbound carriageway - is also planned to be enlarged. It was announced that construction works should begin in Mid 2016. Estimated construction period: 1 1/2 years.


It's actually more of a reconfiguration - there's no space for any real enlargement on the north side of the A6. In fact, taken by itself it will be downsized in this reconfiguration. On the northern side, virtually all truck parking will be removed and trucks will instead be redirected to the southern side - that's what the second bridge in the northwest corner of the aerial picture is being built for since last year, and also the reason why the truck parking zone on the south side is that large. The current 18 official parking spots for trucks on the northern side will be built over with the ramp and roundabout connecting the bridge - see southern side for how much space that needs.

The six-year-old _Planfeststellungsbeschluss_ for both _Raststätten_ can be found here.



ChrisZwolle said:


> According to a media report, it has 288 parking spots for trucks, which may be the largest online parking area in Germany.


It's still far too little for demand btw, at least on weekday nights. Trucks fill up the entire caravan/"car+trailer" parking zone and squeeze into the car-only parking areas. There have been measures taken against that too by now, with parking zones for cars only six cars wide so you can't fit in trucks length-wise.

Planned full parking outfit (in parentheses compared to before):


Kraichgau Nord
147 car parking spots (+36)
7 bus parking spots (+1)
7 caravan/car+trailer spots (+7)
2 time-limited truck parking spots
4 heavy-/outsized-cargo parking spots on 100m parking lane

Kraichgau Süd
174 car parking spots (+106)
10 bus parking spots (+4)
10 caravan/car+trailer spots (+10)
3 heavy-/outsized-cargo parking spots on 65m parking lane

separate Truck Parking Zone (on former Kraichgau Süd site)
152 truck parking spots for south side (+134)
136 truck parking spots for north side (+118)

Total 288 trucks plus 321 cars plus a couple dozen others.

About 15 km east of Kraichgau on the A6 is the Bad Rappenau Nord/Süd Autohof with a combined 130 truck and 140 car parking spots; about 30 km further east is the Hohenlohe Nord/Süd Raststätte which just a few months ago finished expansion to a combined 200 truck and 300 car parking spots. Plus of course the smaller rest stops inbetween that offer about another 100 truck parking spots combined.



A448 said:


> There should be enough open space next to the Autobahnen that pass through rural and flat areas like e.g. Niedersachsen.


The main transit routes ain't up north with the flatlanders.

The problem with the A6 and parking is mostly that you can't expand the smaller rest stops until the 3+3 throughout widening of the A6 at least gets past the planning and funding and into the construction phase. There's plans in the drawers to provide somewhere around 1,000 additional parking spots along the 120 km of the A6 in Baden-Württemberg once that widening gets underway.


----------



## Kanadzie

Blackraven said:


> Tsk tsk
> 
> How many more innocent people have to perish due to such incidents? hno:


would it be cheap / effective to put some kind of flashing "STAU" sign (or the three cars) maybe 5 - 10 km ahead of the actual works, and if a small radar sees traffic flow in front of the works is say, < 50 km/h, it starts to flash aggressively?


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## keokiracer

The danger in that is that if it's too far away from the actual traffic jam drivers will think it's a malfunction and then it has no effect at all.


----------



## Autostädter

How about a siren? If you're not paying attention to the road you will still hear it. It could get quite annoying though if you're stuck next to it. Or maybe they could implement some warning system through the on-board toll system.


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## ChrisZwolle

They operate a device at some construction zones that gives a warning in several languages to CB radio. It turns off when traffic is stopped near the transmitter, so truckers standing in a traffic jam aren't annoyed by it. However, it depends on truckers having their CB turned on.


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## Autostädter

^ That sounds like a good way to go. Truckers should be required to always have their beepers turned on. An emitter would have to be placed along the highway every few miles. It could work a bit like a balise


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## miumiuwonwon

*Road trip A2 from Kamener Kreuz to Magdeburg (1)*

Bundesautobahn 2 is one of the most important autobahns in Germany, connecting the Ruhr area in the west to Berlin in the east. The A2 starts at the junction with the A3 near Oberhausen, passes through the Ruhr area, then the Münsterland and the metropolitan area "Hannover-Braunschweig-Göttingen-Wolfsburg". After crossing the former inner German border it continues through the Magdeburger Börde and finally merges into the Berliner Ring shortly before reaching Berlin. Major cities such as Dortmund, Hannover, Braunschweig and Magdeburg are situated very close to the A2.


*Eastbound*. 
1, We're leaving now the Kamener Kreuz. It was opened in 1937 and was the second interchange between two Reichsautobahns at that time just after the Schkeuditzer Kreuz near Leipzig. It is used by 160,000 vehicles per day.


2, Two identical rest area buildings on the both sides.


3, A short 4km stretch is equipped with the fixed automated anti-icing spray system. This system continuously monitors conditions of the pavement of roads and automatically sprays chemical liquid just in advance of icing conditions.


4, We're reaching Bielefeld, a city that is famous for the *Bielefeld Conspiracy*. The Bielefeld Conspiracy is a satire of conspiracy theories which claims that the city of Bielefeld does not actually exist, based on the three questions below:

Do you know anybody from Bielefeld?
Have you ever been to Bielefeld?
Do you know anybody who has ever been to Bielefeld?

A majority are expected to answer "no" to all of above. :cheers:


5


6


7-10, After the lunch break we're driving back to the autobahn, to which the bridge belongs.








11-15, The Münsterland in the eastern part of North Rhine-Westphalia is predominantly agricultural, and, with the exception of the city of Münster in the center, there are no large cities. The next large city is Hannover.










By me, in May 2016.


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## ChrisZwolle

Some truckers find CB radio annoying. There's a lot of chatter in languagues they don't understand, not to mention the profanity. I'm also not sure if it is still a fixture in every truck nowadays.


----------



## verreme

I took a small roadtrip through Baden-Württemberg back in June. Here are some videos


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## ChrisZwolle

Stuttgart has some interesting infrastructure. There is a large number of expressways, but their problem is the lack of interconnection between them. Basically A8 between AD Leonberg and AK Stuttgart is the only motorway to connect everything around Stuttgart (a region of 5.3 million people). It's a weak link. I think a northeastern ring road would be very beneficial, from A6 west of Heilbronn to A8 east of Stuttgart. Stuttgart is the most congested metropolitan area in Germany, according to the TomTom Traffic Index.


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## 909

^^ It's a bit ironic that the cradle of the automobile and home of Mercedes-Benz and Porsche lacks a proper road network, is there any particular reason why? And could it be that Reutlingen is the largest city without direct access to the Autobahn?


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## verreme

909 said:


> is there any particular reason why?


The Greens being in charge of road-related decisions in the State? I can't think of a more obvious reason.


----------



## 909

verreme said:


> The Greens being in charge of road-related decisions in the State? I can't think of a more obvious reason.


Baden-Württemberg was traditionally a stronghold of the CDU, which has been in power from 1953 until 2011, when a green–red coalition government was established. So this doesn't explain the whole story of Stuttgart's road network, especially since most was built during the reign of the conservatives.


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## kato2k8

The reason why there is no Autobahn ring planned for Stuttgart currently is because the state Greens have a wishlist for highways that's 11 billion Euro worth - and the state is only getting 300 million per year.

Originally, the Stuttgart was supposed to get a closed through building the A45 along the eastern side. That connection would basically have run from just east of where the A81 crosses the Neckar to the B14 near Backnang (planned as A85) to the B29 near Remshalden (planned as A87) to the B10 at Ebersbach (planned as A80) to the A8 at Kirchheim/Teck. Those plans were cancelled in the mid-70s, the spoke Autobahns were mostly cancelled around 1980 and were typically built as yellow Autobahns by then up to the point where the A45 would have connected them all.

There have since been occasional plans for the "Nordostring", mostly for upgrading and connecting B roads in that area, slightly closer to Stuttgart than the planned Autobahn, and basically also connecting the surrounding large suburbs. The only serious attempt started in 1996 and was cancelled in 2004 for environmental concerns (and threats of legal action from in particular Fellbach) by the federal Red-Green coalition.

The problem is mostly of a geographic nature. The A45 in the above 57 km section would have needed at least two new valley bridges and a tunnel, and the section between B29 and B10 (where those would have been built) is a nature protection zone or something like that.

P.S.: The A45 was planned to continue from Kirchheim/Teck as A84 to Reutlingen (and from there westwards across the Blackforest to France).


----------



## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> The reason why there is no Autobahn ring planned for Stuttgart currently is because the state Greens have a wishlist for highways that's 11 billion Euro worth - and the state is only getting 300 million per year.


???

Strange figure but today's funding is definitely not the reason why there is no Autobahn ring.......



kato2k8 said:


> Originally, the Stuttgart was supposed to get a closed through building the A45 along the eastern side.
> 
> [...]
> 
> cancelled in the mid-70s
> 
> [...]


Exactly! That's the reason why there's no Autobahn ring! It was canceled because of environmental issues and residents protest.



kato2k8 said:


> There have since been occasional plans for the "Nordostring", mostly for upgrading and connecting B roads in that area, slightly closer to Stuttgart than the planned Autobahn, and basically also connecting the surrounding large suburbs. The only serious attempt started in 1996 and was cancelled in 2004 for environmental concerns (and threats of legal action from in particular Fellbach) by the federal Red-Green coalition.


Green-Red were not in charge in 2004. It was still CDU.
The federal Red-Green coalition approved the BVWP including a 2+2 expressway b/n B27 south of Ludwigsburg and B29 Waiblingen with further demand only (WB), that means BaWü state was not allowed to proceed planning. The project is called "Nordostring Stuttgart" (north east ring Stuttgart) although it's not a ring but a tangent only.

Nevertheless, a state-owned Neckar bridge (Landesstraße) was planned near Aldingen which should be part of the future B29 expressway. The plan approval procedure began in 2006 but was on hold since Green-Red was in charge in 2011. The plan approval procedure was officially stopped in 2014.

BaWü Green-Red coalition has not submitted the Nordostring for the new BVWP but the federal Ministry of Transport put it on the list. It has a higher priority now (WB*), that means still further demand but BaWü is allowed to design the project (but that's what they don't wanna do...).


----------



## threo2k

verreme said:


> I took a small roadtrip through Baden-Württemberg back in June. Here are some videos


Nice videos! I also like the descriptions u make during the movie, it looks interesting


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## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> It was canceled because of environmental issues and residents protest.


It was cancelled by the (CDU) government itself, not by any court like more recent plannings. That's the difference.

It's not exactly like the northeast needs a ring either nowadays.

A ring would only be highly beneficial for long-distance traffic coming from the north on the A81 and going to the southeast on the A8 (or vice versa). Anyone sane who wants to go southeast of Stuttgart will come in via the A8 from Karlsruhe though - and that includes truck traffic despite the steep gradients, mostly because the A6 is far too full already.
Anyone _living_ in the northeast of Stuttgart and working on the other side of it should consider moving. It's not like Böblingen is any pricier than Waiblingen.

And that's aside from the fact that the Stuttgart region itself is way too suburban. It's about as bad as Berlin in that regard.


----------



## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> It was cancelled by the (CDU) government itself, not by any court like more recent plannings. That's the difference.


Yes, because they recognized that there's a huge opposite (by their own voters) and it's hard (and expensive) to fulfill the environmental terms.



kato2k8 said:


> A ring would only be highly beneficial for long-distance traffic coming from the north on the A81 and going to the southeast on the A8 (or vice versa).


Yes but this would relieve A8/A81 and B10 too.

B29 Nordostring Stuttgart is the only route which is still "planned" (it's a long story though).

B27 Ludwigsburg/Kornwestheim - B14/B29 Waiblingen/Fellbach; 2x2; 11.5km; > 200 million €; benefit-cost-relation > 10; map

It would improve traffic flow from Remstal to Ludwigsburg. Ludwigsburg has 90,000 inhabitants, Kornwestheim 30,000, Fellbach 45,000 and Waiblingen 50,000. In addition, there are many smaller towns and villages and towns behind. It would bypass Stuttgart in the north and relieve B14/B10 Kappelbergtunnel, that means the only "real" connection from northeast to the center of Stuttgart and all destinations south of Stuttgart including an improvement for the 15km route between the neighboring towns of Waiblingen (50,000 inhabitants) and Esslingen (90,000 inhabitants).



kato2k8 said:


> Anyone _living_ in the northeast of Stuttgart and working on the other side of it should consider moving. It's not like Böblingen is any pricier than Waiblingen.


You can recommend it but I think almost no one would do it, e.g. if the husband has a new job at a different location but the wife still works where they live or the children are integrated in school et cetera.

I know a guy living south of Esslingen (Southeast of Stuttgart) who worked in Waiblingen (northeast). 20km. He moved to a different department for a project with a period of 2 years. The office was in Feuerbach (northwest). 20km but via the most congested roads). After 1 year, the project team suddenly moved to Waiblingen. There are some bigger companies in Stuttgart region and (temporarily) moving to a different department is quite common. I don't think that many people move with each new job.



kato2k8 said:


> And that's aside from the fact that the Stuttgart region itself is way too suburban. It's about as bad as Berlin in that regard.


But it is a top economical region. Public transport is not bad but has the same problem with the suburban structure that most busses or trains must cross the center of Stuttgart for all connections (the infamous Stuttgart 21 project is a different story though).

I'm just in Stuttgart for business trips. I come from the north and my destination is usually in the southeast, sometimes northeast, occasionally northwest. Colleagues who's destination is south of Stuttgart (south of Böblingen who have to drive A81-A8-A81) always laugh when I complain about traffic b/n Heilbronn and Zuffenhausen (B10, western access to the center of Stuttgart) because they say that A8 and southern A81 are much more congested.

I think that the central issue is that local and transit traffic have no alternative routes for each connection. I sometimes exit A81 at Mundelsheim or Pleidelsheim (just south of Heilbronn), take L1100 or L1115/B14 to Fellbach/Waiblingen. 2-laned roads with an AADT > 15,000 vehicles/day and a high truck share are not funny though... There's a lot of industry, that means truck traffic is usually local traffic.


----------



## gaz2424

How long is Autobahn going to be free of charge? I've heard that German government wants to introduce pay toll on German roads.


----------



## Christian_AT

gaz2424 said:


> How long is Autobahn going to be free of charge? I've heard that German government wants to introduce pay toll on German roads.


there is no realistic szenario for a toll at the moment, means will be free in future

the EU stopped the national topics that only non germans have to pay, if there should be a toll everybody has to pay


----------



## Attus

^^ EU actually did not stop Ausländer-Maut (i.e. toll for foreigners only) but saying that they start to check it was enough for CSU party (initiaior of that toll) to surrender.


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## MichiH

gaz2424 said:


> How long is Autobahn going to be free of charge? I've heard that German government wants to introduce pay toll on German roads.


The law ("Infrastrukturabgabegesetz") came into force on 12th June 2015. The begin of charging has not yet published but it is/was planned for 2017.
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maut#PKW-Maut.

EU commission criticized the law last April and expected an answer within 2 months. Bundesregierung answered in late June that they think the law is legal.
Next step: EU commission stops their procedure or a ECJ hearing.

Latest news article from Mid July 2016: http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nac...minister-kaempft-weiter-fuer-pkw-maut-003.htm.


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## gaz2424

> the law is legal.


The law should be legal. If Germans pay the tax and gas fees they should be liberated from paying the toll because they are maintaining the roads from their own funds.


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## g.spinoza

gaz2424 said:


> The law should be legal. If Germans pay the tax and gas fees they should be liberated from paying the toll because they are maintaining the roads from their own funds.


Go Germexit and do that.


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## Heico-M

As far as I remember, the car toll has been "postponed" or "suspended", because the European Commission challenged it. They see a violation of EU treaties. The procedure is still-ongoing and awaiting the commencement of a suit before the European Court of Justice (see Wikipedia-link by Michi). 
The point is not the introduction of a car toll, nor the reduction of the car tax. But the similarity results in a discrimination of EU-citizens, that is why the European Commission sees a violation of the EU contracts. 

In my opinion the car toll is dead. 

Angela Merkel had promised the voters that there will be no car toll. 
The car toll made into the coaltion contract, a law was made, challenged by the EU, law suspended and left to be forgotten. Seehofer announced to retire in 2017 (before he'll be held responsible), Merkel keeps her promise (a diplomacy masterpiece).

Okay, in the meantime, Seehofer has decided to stay, but does anyone believe that any politician who is right in the head will push this topic just before the Federal elections? I don't even think that the ECJ suit will be finished before the elections, and afterwards, there will be a new coalition contract.


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## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> does anyone believe that any politician who is right in the head


Talking about CSU party...



Heico-M said:


> will push this topic just before the Federal elections?


I think CSU will do. They've promised Bavarian voters to introduce a car toll for foreigners but without higher costs for Bavarians Germans.



Heico-M said:


> I don't even think that the ECJ suit will be finished before the elections, and afterwards, there will be a new coalition contract.


Yep, courts are damn slow... Merkel has postponed her decision again whether she will run for office again because of CSU party... CDU needs CSU and most of the Bavarian CSU voters would not elect any other party just because of this stupid toll because there would be no disadvantage for them.

Btw, next federal election is in fall 2017.


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## Heico-M

MichiH said:


> Talking about CSU party...


They call him "Crazy Horst" and I think he likes it :cheers:


> I think CSU will do. They've promised Bavarian voters to introduce a car toll for foreigners but without higher costs for Bavarians Germans.


Yeah, but at what price? Going to opposition next legislation period?


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## MichiH

Heico-M said:


> They call him "Crazy Horst" and I think he likes it :cheers:
> 
> Yeah, but at what price? Going to opposition next legislation period?


Why the hell should it happen?

Not many Germans really care about foreigner tolls because they have no disadvantage for themselves. If I had to decide, voting for a party doing many good things but one bad which doesn't affect me at all or voting for a party which announces a lot ot bullshit which will never be implemented because they need a coalition partner and no other party would ever fully agree? Why the hell should I protest vote? To risk an instable political situation? For sure, it would be worse for Germany, Europe and the world compared to some foreigners complaining for being disadvantaged? If the law is not according to EU rules, ECJ will reject the law. Why should I not trust in ECJ?

For sure, CSU party will get > 50% in Bavaria and why should any Non-Bavarian-German not vote for CDU party just because of this detail except Horst or any other CSU politician will be the front-runner and his major topic is the "foreigner toll"? I even think, there are more people who would vote for CDU/CSU because of foreigner toll...


I've listened to a comedy gag on the radio today. Angela, Horst and Sigi (Merkel, Seehofer and Gabriel) are talking about the future CDU/CSU front-runner / Chancellor candidate. Sigi asked Horst if he would immediately forbid wearing burqinis when being in force. Horst answered: "Nein, bei uns wird alles verschleiert" (No, we will mask/fake everything). Horst and Sigi argued till Angela said: "Nein, Horst, wir *l*assen das!" ("no, we'll reject it"), which is a wordplay to the famous Merkel-Pro-Immigrants saying "wir *sch*affen das!" ("we'll manage it"). Of course, Horst was happy and said "Finally"!


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## Heico-M

I understand your point, but your assumption is still, that a car toll only for foreigners is in line with the EU legislation. In my point of view, it is not. Otherwise the EU commission had not taken action. 

The EU commission is not a European Government, it is "only" the keeper of the EU contracts. And it sees a contract violation because foreigners are being discriminated. 

(Guess this has been discussed before, hasn't it?)


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## MichiH

I think you don't get me. EU commission claimed that it's not legal. Bundesregierung had to give their opinion. They did and wait for EU commission now. If EU commission still thinks that it's not legal they'll meet at ECJ...


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## Wilhem275

MichiH said:


> Why the hell should I protest vote? To risk an instable political situation? For sure, it would be worse for Germany, Europe and the world compared to some foreigners complaining for being disadvantaged? If the law is not according to EU rules, ECJ will reject the law. Why should I not trust in ECJ?


I'm probably an idealist, but a good answer would be "To help improving the horrible image that the German voter is getting".

I believe the whole continent is living a time of extra-populistic politics, so I'm not blaming the Germans for being worse than the rest.
But, if it was me, I'd try to do my part to correct these distortions.

It's not just the foreigners toll, it's also using the KBA as a propaganda instrument to attack VW's competitors instead of applying justice for the Dieselgate scandal.
The political line seems to be "Hey, we're above than the rest, we can do what we want".

It's a politician's job to propose bullshit like that.
It should be his voters' job to send him home with a kick in his butt.

If this doesn't happen, and instead that politician is getting more support, it's just natural that the general opinion shifts from "Dobrindt is an arsehole" to "All the Germans are arseholes, they like him".
I use to be the one that opposes the anti-German sentiments, but lately I'm having a hard time in justifying certain choices.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Fechingen Bridge reopened to traffic this morning after a nearly 2 month closure due to poor bridge rating. They scrapped 2000 tons of pavement from the bridge to make it lighter so it can support car traffic. Truck traffic is still banned, they built a narrow entrance gate so trucks can't physically enter the bridge.


It was planned to open the A6 bridge near Fechingen for trucks by the end of 2016 but it's announced now that it will be opened on 31st October 2016. See press release.


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## MichiH

*A44 Kassel - Eisenach*

A news article reports about the current progress: > click <.



MichiH said:


> *A44:* AS Helsa-East – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West 6.1km (May 2010 to Late 2019) – project – map


Probably to be opened in 2020.



> *A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-East – Hasselbach 4.3km (September 2010 to 2017) – project – map


A company complaint about a contract award which caused a delay of 1 year. Approximately to be opened in spring 2018.



> *A44:* Hasselbach – AS Waldkappel 6.9km (March 2011 to 2017) – project – map


Almost completed, just signage and marking missing but the section cannot be opened without the neighboring section. Approximately to be opened in spring 2018.



> *A44:* AS Waldkappel – AS Ringgau 7.9km (July 2016 to Mid 2020) – project – map


Estimated opening date: 2020.


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## HarryMiller

Little OT:
Has anyone projects from WW2 (after 1941) on the occupied areas, i.e. General Gouvernement and Reichskommissariat Ostland and Ukraine?
I've found a project from 1941, which didn't included theses areas.










Scheme from a Finnish site (includes GG, but i don't know a source where it was taken from, and some roads exclude with a previous project).










Who has more?


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## MichiH

HarryMiller said:


> Little OT:


Why?



HarryMiller said:


> Has anyone projects from WW2 (after 1941) on the occupied areas, i.e. General Gouvernement and Reichskommissariat Ostland and Ukraine?
> I've found a project from 1941, which didn't included theses areas.


I only know about Strecke 88 in Czech Republic and Strecke 90(?) in Denmark. Maybe some routes in "occupied" Poland?

There's a lot of stuff about Reichsautobahnen, e.g.:
http://www.autobahngeschichte.de/
http://www.berlinka.pcp.pl/
http://www.webreichsautobahn.de/
http://www.reichsautobahn.de
...


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## TM_Germany

A3 Lahn valley bridge update (Lahntalbrücke)

Demolition of an overpass of the approach to the old bridge. I'm a bit sad to see it go as the stone part of it probably is from the original 30s Reichsautobahn, AFAIK.



The second new bridge is now almost complete. It doesn't carry any traffic yet, though.



This is the progress of the demolition process of the old Lahntalbrücke.






Apart from that, the previously faulty pavement of the first new bridge was changed and is now quite smooth.


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## ГАЗ-2434

> Little OT:
> Has anyone projects from WW2 (after 1941) on the occupied areas, i.e. General Gouvernement and Reichskommissariat Ostland and Ukraine?
> I've found a project from 1941, which didn't included theses areas.


I have never heard about this but it can be possible that the Reich leadership wanted to build road infrastructure all the way to the eastern borders of the Reich. It is logical because they've wanted to make their journey far more easier and quicker. I think that they would not have in mind to construct a network dense as it was in areas in the western part of the Reich but some sort of a plan had to exist.


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## MichiH

^^ It was discussed to build an extraterritorial Autobahn through Poland to have a continuous Autobahn to East Prussia but Pols didn't agree. It was prior to occupation though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlinka (there are some maps linked at the end of the article)


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## Des

Just read in the paper that A99 between Munich-Nord and exit Ismaning will be widened to 2x4 over 6km. Should be finished in 2019.


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, there was a huge setback with this project. A99 is one of the few Autobahns in Germany with space for eight lanes, they would not have to replace bridges to widen it. However, earlier this year they found out that nearly all bridges need to be replaced anyway due to the poor condition.

http://www.merkur.de/lokales/muench...uecken-muessen-abgerissen-werden-6160468.html


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## MichiH

^^ Groundbreaking ceremony is scheduled for Monday.


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## Des

Not really a highway update but on the 'Middle Ring' in Munich there are some changes:

- Middle ring east bound through the English Garden will get an extra lane between Tücherpark and Osterwaldstrasse. Work is already under way and should be finished end of October. After this extension the traffic light will disappear but lane width will be reduced to 3 meters. 
- Middle ring Landshuter Allee will be moved into a tunnel between the existing tunnel and the Dachauer Strasse. This is one of the busiest sections of the Mitteler Ring with over 100,000 cars a day. Sadly it will be a 2x2 tunnel and the intersection with the Georg Brauchl ring is not affected. 

Somehow Munich seems to love spending billions on car tunnels that do not bring any capacity upgrade. The only difference is that the traffic jams go underground.


----------



## Ryme Intrinseca

Following on from my EU interchanges thread, here's my breakdown of four-way full access freeflow interchanges in Germany:


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B33:* AS Offenburg-Zunsweier – AS Gengenbach-North 2.8km (October 2010 to September 2016) – ? – map
> *B33:* AS Offenburg-Elgersweier (B3) – AS Offenburg-Zunsweier 2.4km (October 2010 to Early 2018) – ? – map


The first section is announced to be opened in Mid October 2016. The second section is announced to be opened in spring 2018. See press release.


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## Flor!an

A 39: Teilabschnitt in Lüneburg erhält zusätzlichen Fahrstreifen
http://www.mw.niedersachsen.de/aktu...rhaelt-zusaetzlichen-fahrstreifen-147048.html


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## ChrisZwolle

Those are auxiliary lanes between exits, to eliminate unnecessary weaving for traffic that uses the road only between two exits. 

It's no cheap fix though, this section does currently not have shoulders and several bridges would need to be replaced / widened, especially if they want it to upgrade to A39, which would generally require a shoulder in addition to the auxiliary lane, making the carriageway almost twice as wide.


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## Attus

Hochmoselbrücke - Sep 2016 / 7 by Attila Németh, on Flickr
Hochmoselbrücke - Sep 2016 / 5 by Attila Németh, on Flickr

Some more new pictures of Hochmoselbrücke, bridge of expressway B50 over Mosel river (in construction). The new ones are on the top.


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## MichiH

*2017 invest*



MichiH said:


> *project list* (groundbreaking 2016)
> 
> It contains almost all projects with building permit!
> 
> [...]
> 
> Some projects are not completely funded (e.g. B463, B33, B34 and B14 in Baden-Württemberg). Mr. Dobrindt says the invest budget will rise from 10.5 billion € to *14 billion € in 2018*, see press release. Experts demanded that (only) 7 billion € are required annually.





MichiH said:


> The Federal Ministry of Transport gave some Christmas presents. They funded some projects. There's no official press release or any document containing all projects but it's announced by the regional members of the Bundestag:


The projects of the Federal 2017 budget (groundbreaking 2017) were published yesterday, see press release or project list. Mr. Dobrindt states that the bottleneck is planning (by states), not financing now.

It contains 24 projects with an amount of 2.1 billion € (it was 2.7 billion € last July, in addition, there's a little December list).

4 projects in Baden-Württemberg, total costs: 282 Mio €
B14 Backnang, 2nd section, 105 million €, 2x2
B33 Konstanz-Allensbach, section C+D, 105 million €, 2x2
B34 Oberlauchringen bypass, 15 million €, 2+1
B463 Pforzheim bypass, section 1.03, 56 million €

*7 projects* in Bayern, total costs: 314 Mio €
A3 2x3 widening AK Fürth/Erlangen, 195 million €
B2 Wernsbach bypass, 31 million €, 2x2
B16 Marktoberdorf - Bertoldshofen, 32 million €
B85 widening Amberg-Ost - Pittersberg, 9 million €
B299 Mühlhausen bypass, 24 million €
B303 Schirnding bypass, section 1, 11 million €, 2x2 widening (expected AADT 2030: 6,000 vehicles/day; a gap to the Czech border will remain though)

2 projects in Hessen, total costs: 256 Mio €
*A44 Sontra-West - Sonstra-East, 229 million €, 2x2* (2nd to last section to be funded b/n Kassel and Eisenach, last section still in early planning stage)
A643 widening AK Wiesbaden/Schierstein - AS Wiesbaden-Äppelallee, 27 million €

1 project in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, total costs: 11 Mio €
B191 Plau northern bypass, 11 million €

1 project in Niedersachsen, total cots: 143 Mio €
A1 Neuenkirchen/Vörden - Lohne/Dinklage, 143 million € (2nd to last section (20km) b/n A29 and A30; 10km gap left, still in plan approval procedure)

1 project in Nordrhein-Westfalen, total costs: *740 Mio €*
A1 2x4 widening Köln-Niehl - AK Leverkusen-West (Rheinbrücke), 740 million € (not yet approved)

3 projects in Rheinland-Pfalz, total costs: 84 Mio €
B10 2x2 widening Godramstein - Landau, 39 million €
B48 Imsweiler bypass, 28 million €
B417 Realignment in Diez, 17 million €

1 project in Sachsen, total costs: 97 Mio €
B172 Pirna bypass, section 3, 97 million €

3 projects in Sachsen-Anhalt, total costs: 129 Mio €
*A14 Colbitz - Tangerhütte (VKE 1.3), 65 million €, 2x2
*B71 Wedringen bypass, 38 million €, partially 2x2
B188 Oedisfelde bypass, section 2, 26 million €

1 project in Thüringen, total costs: 5 Mio €
B19 Witzelroda bypass, 5 million €


----------



## MichiH

^^ I've tried to make a list of demand plan (Bedarfsplan) projects with *building permit but without funding*.

There are some plan approval orders which has been passed but there's still some trouble with the projects because there are complaints, discussions about modifications, opposition by residents and local councils et cetera (A281 Wesertunnel, B2 Tunnel Starnberg, B289 Kauerndorf,...).

There are many sections (especially Autobahn widening) which are planned to be built by PPP contracts (A3, A6, A7, A49, B247,...).

In addition, there are some projects with very old (but still valid) plan approval orders (A60, A62, B31 Döggingen,...).

Not yet funded are:

No projects left!


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## MichiH

The 2014 report of transport infrastructure investment has been released by the Federal Ministry of Transport: http://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/201609/-/440268.

There's an overview about *2001 to 2014* investment
- 1,258km new Autobahns (14.6 billion €)
- 1,103km Autobahn widening (9.3 billion €)
- 1,966km new Bundesstraßen or widening (12.4 billion €) including 317 bypasses


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## MichiH

There's a report by the Federal Ministry of Transport about "Sommerbaustellen" (construction sites during summer): http://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/201609/-/440180.

There were 715 constructions sites with a duration of 4 or more days on Autobahns this summer (1st June to 30th September). Construction works during the night happened at 63 construction sites.

The attachment contains a list of all construction sites from summer 2016.

2013: 515 construction sites
2014: 625 construction sites
2015: 625 construction sites
2016: 715 construction sites


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## MichiH

*B14 Backnang*

Litte update about the B14 (former A85) upgrade to expressway standard north of Stuttgart:

The plan approval order was passed in November 2005 and it's legal since 2007. Section 1.1 is funded since July 2015 (11 million €), section 1.2 is funded since December 2015 (31 million €) and section 2+3 are funded since last week (105 million €).

It's reported that the first section is delayed because the contract for the main construction works is still not yet awarded. Only a temporary road is built but nothing happened in the past weeks (I can confirm because I drove there last week). They hope to award the contract till the end of 2016 and works should begin in spring 2017. Completion date is delayed to spring 2018. The construction of the next section should directly follow up. Source (It's reported that the remaining sections are not yet funded but it was assigned the next day). It's announced that the construction of the 2nd Murrtal viaduct could be started in summer 2018. Source.

*B14:* north of AS Backnang-West – AS Backnang-South ~4km (Summer 2018 to ?) – ? – map
*B14:* AS Backnang-South – north of AS Waldrems ~2km (? to ?) – ? – map
*B14:* north of AS Waldrems – south of AS Waldrems 0.9km (Spring 2018 to 2020) – ? – map
*B14:* south of AS Waldrems – north of AS Nellmersbach 1.0km (June 2016 to Spring 2018) – ? – map


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## MattiG

MichiH said:


> Litte update about the B14 (former A85) upgrade to expressway standard north of Stuttgart:
> 
> The plan approval order was passed in November 2005 and it's legal since 2007. Section 1.1 is funded since July 2015 (11 million €), section 1.2 is funded since December 2015 (31 million €) and section 2+3 are funded since last week (105 million €).
> 
> It's reported that the first section is delayed because the contract for the main construction works is still not yet awarded. Only a temporary road is built but nothing happened in the past weeks (I can confirm because I drove there last week). They hope to award the contract till the end of 2016 and works should begin in spring 2017. Completion date is delayed to spring 2018. The construction of the next section should directly follow up. Source (It's reported that the remaining sections are not yet funded but it was assigned the next day). It's announced that the construction of the 2nd Murrtal viaduct could be started in summer 2018. Source.
> 
> *B14:* north of AS Backnang-West – AS Backnang-South ~4km (Summer 2018 to ?) – ? – map
> *B14:* AS Backnang-South – north of AS Waldrems ~2km (? to ?) – ? – map
> *B14:* north of AS Waldrems – south of AS Waldrems 0.9km (Spring 2018 to 2020) – ? – map
> *B14:* south of AS Waldrems – north of AS Nellmersbach 1.0km (June 2016 to Spring 2018) – ? – map


Do I understand correctly: 8 kilometers, 147 millions euro, divided in 4 projects?


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## ChrisZwolle

That's how Germany works. Resurfacing projects are also often cut up in small segments. Many Baustellen are only 3-6 km long, situations as the 60 km Baustelle on A7 north of Hamburg are usually PPP projects which manage to get long stretches completed in a relatively short timespan. 

I drove through Germany today, from Basel to Venlo (A5+A65+A61). A5 Basel - Karlsruhe is entirely free of construction zones, which is an exception in the Baustelle-ridden Autobahn system of Germany. A61 had numerous construction zones, none of which were a real slowdown today.


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## Wilhem275

Last weekend I drove on the Autobahn with a vehicle capable of exceeding 100 km/h :lol: , mostly between the Austrian border and Göppingen via A99 and Augsburg (and back).

I finally tried the fabled high speed driving and I much appreciated the general lane discipline that allows to keep a very fast pace without hassle.
Also it's immediately clear how the whole infrastructure appears a lot wider than an average European motorway, mostly thanks to the left "half reservation".

There are some other remarks I'd like to make:

1) draining tarmac should be used much more, there were some stretches of A99 and A8 with so much mist it almost looked like fog

2) when a speed limit begins, I think there should be a previous warning (like: 120 km/h in 500 m) so that the new speed could be reached just by engine break; otherwise it's too sudden. This is particularly true around workzones... I wouldn't even try to pass someone at 160 km/h if I know that after 1 km the speed will drop.

3) I tried to stick to limits assuming cameras could be anywhere and are not signalled. This turned out to be very stressful because in some spots the average driver did the same (ok) while in others nobody cared and I was suddenly the slow jerk in the middle of fast traffic. Couldn't get the reason.

4) Baustellen everywhere, but I didn't see ONE worker on the spot, apart from the works for the new Ulm - Stuttgart railway line.

5) I assume the speed limit signalling is automatic and based on the density of traffic. While it overall worked well, in some spots I had the impression the drop in capacity was caused _by _the signalling itself, set too low in the middle of a fast stretch :crazy: 


Outside the Autobahn I had a bad encounter with a speed cam here, at the end of a steep slope in the middle of nothing... I completely missed the 50 km/h and I still don't know how, since I'm usually paying a lot of attention. There were a couple of warning flashing signs just before the cam itself, probably I was not the first missing the sign...

And, in general, let the damn Street View work! It's 2016, and that's a unique instrument for programming routes...


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> A61 had numerous construction zones, none of which were a real slowdown today.


Yesterday there was a long queue before intersection Erfttal, caused a delay of 30 minutes, northbound, and one at intersection Bliesheim, a delay of 20 minutes, southbound. 

I drive oft (i.e. approx. 12-14 times a year) Rheinbach - Leverkusen and back. Funny, my destination is 100 meters apart from both A1 and A3 but since there is not exit at Kreuz Leverkusen I must take a serious detour. I can drive via A565 - A59 - A3 or via A61 - A1. Since there is the large construction site on A3, causing huge congestions, I usually take A61 - A1. But yesterday the weight control was installed on the ramps of Rhine bridge of A1 and there was a congestion of more than 10 km eastbound (a delay of more than 45 minutes according to traffic report) so I changed my mind and took A535 - L150 (it's a 2×2 expressway between Brühl and Wesseling) - A555 - A4 - A3. 
On the way back there was a long queue on A3 so I took the Leverkusen bridge and A1 up to Bliesheim and then some regional roads because A61 was congested there. 
Because of the lots of construction sites it is quite bad to drive in this region even Sunday afternoon.


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## Kanadzie

Wilhem275 said:


> 3) I tried to stick to limits assuming cameras could be anywhere and are not signalled. This turned out to be very stressful because in some spots the average driver did the same (ok) while in others nobody cared and I was suddenly the slow jerk in the middle of fast traffic. Couldn't get the reason.


The Germans know where the cameras are hiding
and also where they are not hiding :lol:


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## Wilhem275

Kanadzie said:


> The Germans know where the cameras are hiding
> and also where they are not hiding :lol:


Yeah but, ALL Germans? :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ Yup
the cameras are just the Auslaender-maut


----------



## NordikNerd

*The A1-expansion in Niedersachsen & NRW*



MichiH said:


> 1 project in Niedersachsen, total cots: 143 Mio €
> A1 Neuenkirchen/Vörden - Lohne/Dinklage, 143 million € (2nd to last section (20km) b/n A29 and A30; 10km gap left, still in plan approval procedure)












The goverment in Berlin is distributing 143 million euros for the planned six-lane widening of the A1 motorway. The funds were released by the Federal Ministry of Transport in Berlin on Wednesday Sept 21th.

It is about the 19-km section between the junctions Lohne / Dinklage and Neuenkirchen-Vörden. Around 45 million euros is provided for the actual construction, the remaining 98 million will be used for the maintennance.

As an important trade route between the north and south of Europe the A1 is of special importance. As the A1 is 750 km long it is one of the longest cross-country north-south highways in Germany. 

The motorway is used by many trucks and it's also important to tourism along the North and Baltic Seas. It begins in Puttgarden on the island of Fehmarn and ends in the Saarland.










The expansion also continues in the neighbouring Nordrhein-Westphalia
The A1 between Osnabrück and Münster should as soon as possible get an additional lane in each direction. 

A social democrat of the government recently said: "The A1 fulfills a very important transport function in globalized Europe," "We believe that the expansion is urgently needed."

In 3 of 4 phases, the plan approval procedures have already been introduced. In the remaining approvals the procedures are waiting to be immediately initiated regardless of the skeptical attitude of the Green Party, which is in coalition with the government in this part of Germany.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
After this expansion I presume that the entire A1 between Lubeck and
Cologne will be a 3+3 motorway ??


----------



## ChrisZwolle

NordikNerd said:


> It is about the 19-km section between the junctions Lohne / Dinklage and Neuenkirchen-Vörden. Around 45 million euros is provided for the actual construction, the remaining 98 million will be used for the maintennance.


I presume this is a PPP project then, they typically have a 30 year concession for maintenance. Usually a PPP contract also stipulates that the infrastructure must be in good condition when it is handed over to the government (so they can't get away with not maintaining it the last 10 years of the concession).



> After this expansion I presume that the entire A1 between Lubeck and
> Cologne will be a 3+3 motorway ??


Münster - Dortmund also needs to be upgraded to six lanes. I'm not sure if all sections of A1 through the interchanges at Hamburg have three lanes each way. There's also a short 2x2 segment between the Horster Dreieck (A7) and Dreieck Buchholz (A261).

Trucking on A1 is huge, it connects the large cities in Northern Germany with the Rhein-Ruhr area. The entire right lane is often occupied by trucks.


----------



## flusispieler

They are currently repaving the whole section between Lohne/Dinklage and Bramsche. The section between Lohne/Dinklage and Holdorf is already finished.

Apparently the repaving is necessary, so that the pavement can carry the traffic of both directions on one carriageway once widening starts (I heard/read about a start in November somewhere at some point).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yes, that's not uncommon, especially if they want the shoulder to carry traffic through the construction zone. 

Another example is A57 north of Kamp-Lintfort. It will be renovated, but they need to strengthen the shoulder before they can operate a construction zone with traffic on the shoulder.

In many cases the shoulder has a thinner foundation. It can handle the job of occasional breakdown use, but it would be teared apart by trucks after a few days / weeks if it's in continuous use.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Last week I was driving to Saarbrücken. There is a very long stretch with no motorway services in Belgium-Germany via E40-E42-A60-A1. There is a fuel station and services at Aachen-Lichtenbusch (border crossing) but then the next fuel station is not for another 190 kilometers until Reinsfeld, south of Trier. And there are no 'Autohof' facilities either. The only fuel station close to the motorway is in Belgium along E42 near St. Vith, where there is a very small Shell station on an industrial area.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Leverkusen Rhine Bridge*

The first gates to stop trucks from entering the Rhine River Bridge at Leverkusen has gone active today. It's located at the Leverkusen-West interchange, coming from A59. All traffic has to go through the gates, and trucks will be directed to a detour route. 

Similar gates will also be activated soon on A1 in both directions. This is the last desperate attempt to keep the bridge open until a replacement is completed in 2020.

They caught 3 trucks within several minutes of activation:


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> Last week I was driving to Saarbrücken. There is a very long stretch with no motorway services in Belgium-Germany via E40-E42-A60-A1. There is a fuel station and services at Aachen-Lichtenbusch (border crossing) but then the next fuel station is not for another 190 kilometers until Reinsfeld, south of Trier. And there are no 'Autohof' facilities either. The only fuel station close to the motorway is in Belgium along E42 near St. Vith, where there is a very small Shell station on an industrial area.


How about heisdorf or Schleid (Niemstal-West)? Maybe one of the two can use an upgrade and have a service station...


----------



## MichiH

NordikNerd said:


> Around 45 million euros is provided for the actual construction, the remaining 98 million will be used for the maintennance.


Source?



ChrisZwolle said:


> I presume this is a PPP project then, they typically have a 30 year concession for maintenance. Usually a PPP contract also stipulates that the infrastructure must be in good condition when it is handed over to the government (so they can't get away with not maintaining it the last 10 years of the concession).


No!



ChrisZwolle said:


> Münster - Dortmund also needs to be upgraded to six lanes.


The plan approval procedure for AS Neuenkirchen/Vörden - north of AS Bramsche (9.9km) in Lower Saxony (next to the recently funded section) began in April 2013.

There are still 2x2 lanes b/n A29 and A28 only. No planning activities but in demand plan (BVWP).

There are 4 plan approval procedures for 2x3 widening b/n Osnabrück (A30) and Münster-North (B54). The first plan approval order was passed in April 2015 (the procedure took 4 1/2 years). The construction of 3 viaducts started immediately (June 2015). To be completed by summer 2018.

The plan approval procedures for the remaining 3 sections began in 2012, 2013 or 2014. It's planned to implement the widening b/n A30 and B54 by PPP (40km). NRW doesn't like PPP and was always complaining. Nevertheless, their plan approval procedures take ages...

Widening of section no. 5 b/n Münster-North (B54) and Münster-South (A43) was completed some years ago. 2008-10???

It's also planned to widen A1 b/n A43 and A2 to 2x3. Section no. 6 was widening b/n October 2012 and October 2014. Section no. 8 plan approval procedure began in April 2016 and section no. 7 and no. 9 procedures are always announced to be started "soon" / "next year" / "one year ahead"... I think PPP is not planned here but I'm too lazy to look it up...



ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm not sure if all sections of A1 through the interchanges at Hamburg have three lanes each way.


http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/A1.htm

btw: A1 just north of A30 was widened about 10 years ago but they didn't replaced a bridge which is damaged now and must be replaced. The 3rd lane is closed again...


----------



## Bender

ChrisZwolle said:


> The first gates to stop trucks from entering the Rhine River Bridge at Leverkusen has gone active today. It's located at the Leverkusen-West interchange, coming from A59. All traffic has to go through the gates, and trucks will be directed to a detour route.
> 
> Similar gates will also be activated soon on A1 in both directions. This is the last desperate attempt to keep the bridge open until a replacement is completed in 2020.
> 
> They caught 3 trucks within several minutes of activation:


I am not sure about the barrier itself but the gates have been in place for several days. That exact spot has become a permanent traffic jam. For some reason, a genius has decided that the two lanes coming from the A59 had to merge a few meters before this, creating chaos and "Rückstau" for no obvious reasons :bash:

And a completion of the bridge in 4 years from now? I want to see that happen :lol:


----------



## xrtn2

italystf said:


> Are there some countries in the world that impose tolls differently between locals and foreigners? I can't think of any.


In some cities in Brazil, people living near a toll plaza dont pay it.


----------



## Ryme Intrinseca

xrtn2 said:


> In some cities in Brazil, people living near a toll plaza dont pay it.


Same with the new bridge being built in Runcorn, UK.

EDIT - by which I mean they get a free e-tag (don't think there's a toll plaza)


----------



## Turf

If this happens Netherlands should get its money back from co financing the A31 just over the border in Germany. I will travel the A31 tomorrow to get from Groningen to Venlo.


----------



## Shenkey

goschio said:


> Nah, foreigners should pay. Unless of course they wish to pay taxes in Germany to maintain the road network.


You make no sense. You pay for network at registration of a car, part of fuel tax goes there and on tolls.

So yes, foreigners already pay for them with fuel.


For small CE countries vignette makes a lot of sense, since most are so small, people don't even need to stop there for a coffee and pay value added tax on that when they drive through it with location is in the hearth of Europe they get loads of transit traffic from which the country gets nothing while it is a huge strain on infrastructure of smaller nations.

While for Germany almost nobody drives through it, but it is at least a stop or an end destination to do business, which is the real money anyway.


----------



## Ni3lS

http://www.der-postillon.com/2016/11/maut-premium.html


----------



## Heico-M

Ni3lS said:


> http://www.der-postillon.com/2016/11/maut-premium.html


He he, nice one! :lol:


----------



## flierfy

italystf said:


> Are there some countries in the world that impose tolls differently between locals and foreigners? I can't think of any.


Austria has established a tolling system that fleeces the foreigners but remains extremely cheap for the locals.


----------



## Christian_AT

flierfy said:


> Austria has established a tolling system that fleeces the foreigners but remains extremely cheap for the locals.


you are wrong


standard that a short time usage is expensiver than a long therm, go to a fitness club or to the supermarket (singlesize-family pack)


in Austria and other EU-countries have a Vignette system it is the same


Austria is fair, Slovenia for example you can classify as "fleecing" system, why:

1.Slovenia offers the short therm option only 7 days, austria 10 days means for weekend-weekend trips you have to buy in 
austria 1 vignette
slovenia 2 vignettes

2.Price per day of the short compared to full year one: 
Austria 370% 
Slovenia 709%


----------



## Kanadzie

Christian_AT said:


> you are wrong
> 
> 
> standard that a short time usage is expensiver than a long therm, go to a fitness club or to the supermarket (singlesize-family pack)


But standard for a road is free!

A and SK are both jerk countries that are not interested in having visitors enrich them.


----------



## flierfy

Christian_AT said:


> Austria is fair


The town of Bregenz and its people testify it each and every day how fair the Austrian system really is. You can twist it as much as you want but the Austrian tolling system is one that aims at maximum revenues from foreign drivers even if that means that some Austrian towns drown in traffic.


----------



## belerophon

flierfy said:


> The town of Bregenz and its people testify it each and every day how fair the Austrian system really is. You can twist it as much as you want but the Austrian tolling system is one that aims at maximum revenues from foreign drivers even if that means that some Austrian towns drown in traffic.


When i came from Switzerland i did not use the austrain motorway, but went through Bregenz. Thats something you should not do at several hours a day, but sometimes it is possible. Why should one pay a austrian sticker for a one direction trip and just 4 exits?


----------



## AvB

What are the biggest schemes in Germany at the moment?


----------



## Exethalion

AvB said:


> What are the biggest schemes in Germany at the moment?


The A1 Rheinbrücke Leverkusen expansion was recently approved. I suppose in terms of both importance and cost, that would be one of them.


----------



## čarli1

Christian_AT said:


> Austria is fair, Slovenia for example you can classify as "fleecing" system, why:
> 
> 1.Slovenia offers the short therm option only 7 days, austria 10 days means for weekend-weekend trips you have to buy in
> austria 1 vignette
> slovenia 2 vignettes
> 
> 2.Price per day of the short compared to full year one:
> Austria 370%
> Slovenia 709%


Yeah, the easiest way is to point finger on others how unfair system they have. What about tunnels in Austria? Are they for free? In Slovenia are all for free, except for one tunnel which is (what a suprise) at border with Austria. When you will have tunnels without extra payment then you can make such comparison. I'm sure that your vignette would be then much more expensive as it is now


----------



## Heico-M

Kanadzie said:


> But standard for a road is free!


Let me challenge that. This article
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maut#Mautsysteme_in_Europa

lists 23 countries in Europe where you have to pay road tolls for cars, in some countries for the whole network, some countries for parts of the network and some countries for single stretches or bridges/tunnels etc. 

Many non-European countries have a road toll, too. 

In Germany, standard for a road is still free and IMHO I would like to leave it at that. One alternative though would be a EU solution with let's say a European vignette at a low price. 

The Dobrindt initiative is rubbish. It doesn't generate any income. That little money that the 5% foreign drivers would pay, would be lost in administration costs.


----------



## chuckw2010

ChrisZwolle said:


> With last week, I have now driven 63,37% of the German Autobahnnetz. +4,35% since last week.


What does that work out to in Km's?


----------



## Shenkey

čarli;136649840 said:


> Yeah, the easiest way is to point finger on others how unfair system they have. What about tunnels in Austria? Are they for free? In Slovenia are all for free, except for one tunnel which is (what a suprise) at border with Austria. When you will have tunnels without extra payment then you can make such comparison. I'm sure that your vignette would be then much more expensive as it is now


I don't know the other part of the country, but Slovenia longest bar Karawankentunnel is around 3km for Trojane

Austrian 10 day is also cheaper, though I would agree it is a bit much to pay 1€/kilometer of tunnel for places like Katschberg.


----------



## belerophon

Heico-M said:


> The Dobrindt initiative is rubbish. It doesn't generate any income. That little money that the 5% foreign drivers would pay, would be lost in administration costs.


Thats it. I pay wherever i travel. So why shouldn't others do in germany? 
But if the Vignette creates no income for maintaining the system it should be forgotten about. Life is unfair very often. Sometimes you jsut should accept it, if its not to heal easily. 

I think Dobrindt just blames drivers from other countries, because they are not voters. Thats easy but shows a dirty character. Thats why i hate him and his companions.


----------



## MichiH

belerophon said:


> But if the Vignette creates no income for maintaining the system it should be forgotten about.


The Ministry of Transport has recently reported (answer to question no. 8) that the estimated income might be about 3.9 billion €/year. 3.2 billion € from German citizens, 700 million € from foreigners. The system cost calculation is 200 million € per year.


----------



## rheintram

flierfy said:


> The town of Bregenz and its people testify it each and every day how fair the Austrian system really is. You can twist it as much as you want but the Austrian tolling system is one that aims at maximum revenues from foreign drivers even if that means that some Austrian towns drown in traffic.


you are crazy. I grew up near Bregenz and worked there later. The town drowns in traffic because many people (Germans) are too cheap to pay the toll stickers, which cost the same for everyone. There are no taxbreaks for residents of Austria, such as the extremely unfair system that is planned in Germany.


----------



## MichiH

*A14 Schwerin - Magdeburg*



MichiH said:


> There's no prediction about the plan approval order of the next section Karstädt – Wittenberge (17.5km).


Still no prediction.



MichiH said:


> The plan approval order for the Elbe crossing section (10.8km) was announced to be passed in late 2015.


Announced to be passed 2017/18.



MichiH said:


> The plan approval orders b/n Elbe and Lüderitz (48km) are announced to be passed in 2016.


No update.



MichiH said:


> The additional plan approval order for Dolle-Colbitz (10.8km) is announced to be passed in early 2016. Complaints are most likely again. There's not yet a court decision about Lüderitz-Dolle (13.2km). Both sections should be built together.


The additional plan approval order for Dolle-Colbitz was issued in May 2016 and it was not challenged.

The additioanl plan approval order for Lüderitz-Dolle was issued in February 2016 but challenged. The court hearing was scheduled for today but the nature protection organization BUND and the planner reached an agreement yesterday. Additional noise barriers and nature protection will be done (additional costs of 3.5 million €, total costs 71 million €) and they wanna talk about the remaining planning sections to reach an agreement during the planning procedure instead of going to court.

http://www.bverwg.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pressemitteilung.php?jahr=2016&nr=101

http://www.presse.sachsen-anhalt.de...7&identifier=093d766838bc55a1f012d0137d113e83

Dolle-Colbitz funding is available since September 2016 (65 million €), I think Lüderitz-Dolle funding will be assigned soon. Construction works are expected to begin in fall 2017. It was announced that the section might be opened in 2019.



MichiH said:


> There's no prediction about the plan approval order of the last section Wolmirstedt - Dahlenwarsleben (11.4km) but there's already the 4-laned B189 expressway - just a 2.5km 2-laned gap.


No update.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How realistic is a completion of the entire A14 from Magdeburg to Schwerin by 2020, as German media points out? I know recent A14 segments were built faster than many Autobahn projects elsewhere, but they really need to start construction on all remaining segments by 2018 at the latest - assuming an optimistic construction schedule - to get it all done by 2020. 

Meanwhile A72 is delayed again... It was originally planned to be completed before the World Cup of 2006, but now a post-2020 scenario becomes more likely.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> How realistic is a completion of the entire A14 from Magdeburg to Schwerin by 2020, as German media points out? I know recent A14 segments were built faster than many Autobahn projects elsewhere, but they really need to start construction on all remaining segments by 2018 at the latest - assuming an optimistic construction schedule - to get it all done by 2020.


I was about to add the 2020 announcement 

I don't think that the last section will have building permits in 2020...



ChrisZwolle said:


> Meanwhile A72 is delayed again... It was originally planned to be completed before the World Cup of 2006, but now a post-2020 scenario becomes more likely.


Wrong 

The section u/c (Rötha-Borna) was announced to be completed by 2020 but today's news article reports that it should be opened in summer 2019!

http://www.lvz.de/Region/Borna/Vorletzter-Abschnitt-der-A72-fuehrt-in-grossem-Bogen-um-Espenhain

There's already a 4-laned road up to A38 (expressway standard) but it's planned to be upgraded to motorway standard. It was reported yesterday that there's still no schedule because they don't know how stable the ground is....

http://www.mdr.de/sachsen/leipzig/bauarbeiten-verzoegerungen-100.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> The section u/c (Rötha-Borna) was announced to be completed by 2020 but today's news article reports that it should be opened in summer 2019!


While that sounds like a nice 'ahead of schedule' announcement, in 2013 - after construction started - it was said it could be completed by 2017.

http://www.freiepresse.de/NACHRICHTEN/SACHSEN/Autobahn-72-Freie-Fahrt-bis-Borna-artikel8487868.php


----------



## MichiH

*B2:* south of Untersteinach – AS Mauk 4.1km (December 2016 to Late 2019) – project – map

The groundbreaking ceremony for the 2x2 Wernsbach bypass (31.3 million €) took place last Friday. Source.



*B10:* AS Hinterweidenthal – east of Hinterweidenthal 1.3km (September 2013 to 2018) – project – map

The new 2x2 section is announced to be completed by 2019. Source. It's also reported that the construciton works for the 2x2 widening near Landau (funded since September 2016) will begin in 2018.

*B10:* AS Godramstein – AS Landau-North (A65) 4.1km (2018 to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> While that sounds like a nice 'ahead of schedule' announcement


Of course 

The news article quotes the head of the road authority:



> Kraftfahrer brauchen also voraussichtlich ein Jahr früher als geplant zwischen Chemnitz und der A 38 keine Orte mehr durchqueren
> 
> Driver can bypass all villages b/n Chamnitz and A38 estimately one year earlier than planned


http://www.lvz.de/Region/Borna/Vorletzter-Abschnitt-der-A72-fuehrt-in-grossem-Bogen-um-Espenhain


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The additional plan approval order for Dolle-Colbitz was issued in May 2016 and it was not challenged.
> 
> The additioanl plan approval order for Lüderitz-Dolle was issued in February 2016 but challenged. The court hearing was scheduled for today but the nature protection organization BUND and the planner reached an agreement yesterday. Additional noise barriers and nature protection will be done (additional costs of 3.5 million €, total costs 71 million €) and they wanna talk about the remaining planning sections to reach an agreement during the planning procedure instead of going to court.
> 
> Dolle-Colbitz funding is available since September 2016 (65 million €), I think Lüderitz-Dolle funding will be assigned soon. Construction works are expected to begin in fall 2017. It was announced that the section might be opened in 2019.


2019 was an old annoucement from spring(?) 2016. However, another news article was published last night:

http://www.volksstimme.de/sachsen-anhalt/20161214/verkehr-im-sommer-2017-wird-a-14-weitergebaut

Construction works b/n Lüderitz and Dolle (23km) will begin in summer 2017. Construction period is 3 years (completion summer 2020). In addition, it's announced that the entire A14 (additional 69km in Saxony-Anhalt*) should be completed "in the early 2020s".

*The most delayed 20km section is in Brandenburg though.


----------



## MichiH

*Autobahngesellschaft*

The federal cabinet has passed an agreement today that the Grundgesetz (constitution) should be changed (GG Art. 90, 91c, 104b, 104c, 107, 108, 109a, 114, 125c, 143d, 143e, 143f and 143g) to reform the financial organization between Bund and Länder, see press release from Mr. Schäuble and comment from Mr. Dobrindt.

*An important change is that the federal authority will be fully responsible for planning, construction, operation, maintenance, funding and utilization administration of Autobahnen.*

It's planned to pass the law till summer 2017 (next Bundestag election is in fall 2017).

It was reported that the new Autobahngesellschaft should start on 1st January 2021. They should be responsible for 13,000km Autobahn and(!) 1,300km expressways (2x2 Bundesstraßen) with direct connection to an Autobahn.

DEGES, VIFG and Toll Collect should be integrated into the Autobahngesellschaft (source).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It sounds similar to Asfinag in Austria.


----------



## 37nguyenson

The Autobahn system is about as close to perfect as it gets.


----------



## Wilhem275

Indeed.


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> The federal cabinet has passed an agreement today that the Grundgesetz (constitution) should be changed (GG Art. 90, 91c, 104b, 104c, 107, 108, 109a, 114, 125c, 143d, 143e, 143f and 143g) to reform the financial organization between Bund and Länder, see press release from Mr. Schäuble and comment from Mr. Dobrindt.
> 
> *An important change is that the federal authority will be fully responsible for planning, construction, operation, maintenance, funding and utilization administration of Autobahnen.*
> 
> It's planned to pass the law till summer 2017 (next Bundestag election is in fall 2017).
> 
> It was reported that the new Autobahngesellschaft should start on 1st January 2021. They should be responsible for 13,000km Autobahn and(!) 1,300km expressways (2x2 Bundesstraßen) with direct connection to an Autobahn.
> 
> DEGES, VIFG and Toll Collect should be integrated into the Autobahngesellschaft (source).


Can the Grundgesetz be changed that easily? Has the population any voice?


----------



## TrojaA

^^
It's quiet "easy". You need a absolute two-thirds majority of the Bundestag and additionally a simple two-thirds majority of the Bundesrat.
However the amendment may not violate any of the principals written down in the first and the 20th article (the most fundamentel rights).


----------



## kato2k8

TrojaA said:


> You need a absolute two-thirds majority of the Bundestag


Which is the easy part since the current Grand Coalition government holds 503 out of 630 seats, a whopping 80% majority.



TrojaA said:


> additionally a simple two-thirds majority of the Bundesrat.


Which is the hard part because the government without other coalition partners only holds 16 out of 69 votes in the Bundesrat, while the Greens have a say on 49 votes (!). In other words, the coalition can't pass anything at all in the Bundesrat without Green support - not even simple laws.

The proposed required constitutional change was originally deeply opposed by the federal government, in particular Schäuble, and stems from an initiative of the states instead. The Greens support this initiative per se.

The formation of a _Verkehrsinfrastrukturgesellschaft_ to manage Autobahnen however is only a side project of this, and one that Schäuble is trying to push onto the states as part of re-regulating financial affairs between Fed and states. The Greens deeply oppose this, at least in the fashion that Schäuble wants. Elements of the SPD also have their doubts about it.

It's in my opinion therefore highly unlikely that the Autobahngesellschaft will come in the way that Schäuble and Dobrindt want, unless considerably modified and as part of a wider financial deal package that will accomodate Green political aims.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I always wonder why they oppose the old man in the wheelchair, he's the only one who knows what needs to be done :lol:


----------



## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> Which is the hard part because the government without other coalition partners only holds 16 out of 69 votes in the Bundesrat, while the Greens have a say on 49 votes (!). In other words, the coalition can't pass anything at all in the Bundesrat without Green support - not even simple laws.


I think the Bundesrat will pass the change because the Bundesrat represents the Bundesländer which want the agreement and benefit most from the agreement. More than the federal government. The "Autobahn" deal is just one part of the whole package...

So far, details about the "Autobahn" deal are not yet agreed. If they'll get a solution on that and all other changes, the Grundgesetz modification could be done quickly.


----------



## Heico-M

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ I always wonder why they oppose the old man in the wheelchair, he's the only one who knows what needs to be done :lol:


The day may come when we all are going to miss an old man in a wheelchair. 
Seriously.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

2 people were killed in a crash on A31 between Leer and Emden. A traffic jam formed due to roadworks and a truck driver plowed full speed into traffic, crashing into 1 truck, one trailer vehicle and three other cars. A woman was killed on impact on Thursday, an older man also died of his injuries today.


----------



## MichiH

*2016 autobahn directory*



> Up-to-date information on motorways has been maintained and regularly published at the Federal Highway Research Institute since 1969 in collaboration with the Federal Ministry of Transport, Building and Urban Affairs and the state road construction authorities. Traditionally all intersections, secondary units and operations are represented with reference to their direction in the course of routes on motorways for this purpose.
> 
> BASt has been storing this information for the BMVBS in a continuously updated database since 1980. The key date for the present report is September 1, 2016.
> 
> The report first provides an overview over the existing information given in the motorway directory. It then presents statistical evaluations on the current status of the motorway network. Before publishing the actual motorway directory the block directory and the directory of motorway service centres will also be included in the report.
> 
> The present report is being made available as a pdf file both on CD as well as on the Internet. Specific evaluations of the database on the motorway directory are only possible based on a paid application with a representation of the area of use and within the scope of the existing personnel capacity.


Press release: > click <.
Download info: > click <.
pdf document: > click <


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B266:* AS Bad Neuenahr (A573) – AS Bad Neuenahr-East 1.8km (February 2009 to Fall 2016) – project – map
> 
> Delayed to Mid 2017 (it was originally planned to be opened by late 2014). Source (I'm not authorized to read the article, so I don't know the delay reason).


Works proceed well but there's a delay of some weeks. However, they suddently ("aus heiterem Himmel") realized that an overpass - which was built 30 years ago but no yet used - must be renovated because the noise barriers are too heavy. The opening of the bypass is delayed to the beginning of 2018 (1. Halbjahr) now. Source.


----------



## brick84




----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ It's nice, huh 

Did Germany really open just one stretch of Autobahn in 2016? (A23 at Itzehoe).


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, but 2nd carriageway only.

I plan posting a 2016 summary about completed Autobahn and Bundesstraßen widening projects and new Bundesstraßen next weekend. On demand, I could also post a 2017 outlook.


----------



## TrojaA

^^ Yes so I wouldn't count that, too. Although it appears in your list? Is it due to the renaming of the B5 to A23?

However this year (2017) will bring us some more new Autobahn and motorway-like sections. 6 new Autobahn sections (A8, A14, A33, A44, A448, A661) and 3 motorway-like Bundesstraßen (B33, B47, B49) are listed by MichiH. There are also a lot of widening projects that should be finished. (Large portion of the A7 widing between Hamburg and AD Bordesholm and on various A3 sections in North Rhine-Westphalia and Bavaria )


----------



## MichiH

TrojaA said:


> ^^ Yes so I wouldn't count that, too. Although it appears in your list? Is it due to the renaming of the B5 to A23?


It's in my list because of the new 2nd carriageway.



TrojaA said:


> However this year (2017) will bring us some more new Autobahn and motorway-like sections. 6 new Autobahn sections (A8, A14, A33, A44, A448, A661)


A8 and A661 also get the 2nd c/w only.

btw: A plan approval order for the next A21 section was recently passed (6.2km Klein Barkau - Nettelsee), see press release. The approval procedure took 5 years only... :lol:


----------



## MichiH

*Actual 2016 openings*

New motorways (total: 2.0km; 2015: 48.8km):
*
A23:* south of Stör bridge – AS Itzehoe-South 2.0km (2010 to 14th June 2016) – project – map

Motorway widenings (total: ~22km; 2015: ~62km):
*
A4:* west of AS Kerpen – AS Kerpen (2x3) 2.2km (March 2015 to 29th June 2016) – project – map
*A7:* south of AS Bockenem – T+R Harz (2x3) ~8km (August 2012 to Late October 2016) – project – map
*A6:* west of AK Nürnberg-South (A73) – west of AK Nürnberg-East (A9) (2x3) 5.7km (March 2015 to 6th December 2016) – project – map
*A7:* south of AD Bordesholm – AS Neumünster-North (2x3) 6.5km (November 2014 to 16th December 2016) [PPP] – project – map

New expressways (total: 6.0km; 2015: 1.8km):
*
B33:* AS Offenburg-Zunsweier – AS Gengenbach-North (2x2) 2.8km (October 2010 to 25th October 2016) – ? – map
*B85:* Piendling – Untertraubenbach (2x2) 3.2km (March 2014 to 28th October 2016) – project – map

New B roads and B road bypasses (total: ~24km; 2015: ~67km):
*
B1* Herzfelde bypass 4.5km (September 2009 to 30th June 2016) – ? – map
*B611* nördl. AS Vlotho-West (A2) – AS Vlotho-West (A2) 0.7km (February 2016 to Late August 2016) – ? – map
*B62* KVP Niederschelderhütte – AS Niederschelden 0.7km (April 2010 to 8th September 2016) – project – map
*B27* Oberhaun – Sieglos ~1.9km (September 2009 to 15th September 2016) – project – map
*B466* Süßen-East – west of Donzdorf 2.1km (July 2013 to 26th September 2016) – ? – map
*B255* südl. Niederahr – AS Oberahr (partially 2x2) ~2km (July 2007 to 28th November 2016) – ? – map
*B62* AS Niederschelden – AS Siegen-Dreisbach (partially 2x2) 1,9km (April 2010 to 2nd December 2016) – project – map
*B212* Huntebrück-Süd – Ranzenbüttel (B74) 3km (>= July 2009 to 8th December 2016) – project – map
*B169* Auerbach-North (S299) – Rodewisch (B94) (2+1) 1.4km (August 2013 to 14th December 2016) – project – map
*B23* AS Kohlgrub – south of Saulgrub 1.8km (May 2013 to 19th December 2016) – project – map
*B169* Auerbach-Richardshöhe (K7827) – Auerbach-Rebesgrün (S278) 2.7km (August 2015 to 20th December 2016) – project – map
*B88* south of AS Schöps – south of Rothenstein (2+1) 1.5km (January 2015 to Late 2016?) – project – map

B road widenings (total: 12.2km; 2015: 10km):
*
B169* Arnsdorf – Greifendorf (2+1) 1.1km (March 2016 to 24th June 2016) - ? – map
*B535:* AS Mannheim-Friedrichsfeld – AS Schwetzingen-Center (2x2) 1.9km (December 2010 to 4th August 2016) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B65* Vornhagen – Kobbensen (2+1) 2.9km (November 2014 to 7th October 2016) - Projekt – map
*B253* Sackpfeife – Eifa (2+1) 1.5km (October 2012 to 11th November 2016) - ? – map
*B41* Waldböckelheim-Reitweg – west of Waldböckelheim (2+1) 0.7km (? to 24th November 2016) - ? – map
*B464* south of Holzgerlingen-Hülben – Holzgerlingen-Erlachstraße (2x2) 1.6km (November 2014 to 7th December 2016) - ? – map
*B286* south of Gerolzhofen – Schallfeld (2+1) 1.3km (July 2016 to 16th December 2016) - Projekt – map
*B34* Rheinbrücke Waldshut – KVP Lonza (2+1) 1.2km (July 2015 to December 2016) - ? – map


2015 list: > click <.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^2015 or 2016 ?


----------



## MichiH

^^ 2016. I cannot see anything wrong. 2015 is only indicated at the totals in brackets for comparison and at the link at the end to the list posted last year.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> ^^ 2016. I cannot see anything wrong. 2015 is only indicated at the totals in brackets for comparison and at the link at the end to the list posted last year.


One error here:


> Motorway widenings (total: ~22km; 2016: ~62km):


Additionally: I "liked" your efforts, not them of the government.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> One error here:


Thanks, fixed.



Attus said:


> Additionally: I "liked" your efforts, not them of the government.


Dunno if it's better or worse for governments' reputation but more openings are expected for 2017. Still less than 2015 or similar to 2015:

New motorways:
2015: 48.8km
2016: 2.0km
2017: ~27km

Motorway widenings:
2015: ~62km
2016: ~22km; 
2017: ~60km

New expressways:
2015: 1.8km):
2016: 6.0km; 
2017: ~4km

New B roads and B road bypasses
2015: ~67km
2016: ~24km
2017: ~55km

B road widenings:
2015: 10km
2016: 12.2km
2017: ~30km

However, a lot of construction works began in 2016 or are announced for 2017/18.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

From Autobahn-online (also MichiH  )

Autobahn opening mileage by year:
2001: 76,6km
2002: 199,1km
2003: 121,2km
2004: 132,5km
2005: 194,7km
2006: 187,3km
2007: 23,7km
2008: 118,4km
2009: 81,0km
2010: 31,6km
2011: 24,1km
2012: 31,1km
2013: 45,6km
2014: 54,1km
2015: 43,7km
2016: 2,0km
2017: 32,5km
2018: 36,6km
2019: 58,2km
2020: 16,5km
2021: 27,6km
2022: 6,0km 

So 2016 was the worst year for new Autobahn openings since at least 2001, and perhaps even since the 1950s?


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> From Autobahn-online (also MichiH  )
> So 2016 was the worst year for new Autobahn openings since at least 2001, and perhaps even since the 1950s?


 yes, I think so:

...
1957: 35km + 4.3km 1st c/w
1956: 67km + 4.8km 2nd c/w
1955: 1.1km + 14.7km 2nd c/w
1954: 0km + 23km 1st c/w
1953: 14.4km + 17.0km 1st c/w
1952: 0km
1951: 3.5km
1950: 2.8km + 7.0km 1st c/w
1949: 0km
1948: 0km
1947: 0km
1946: 0km
1945: 0km
...


----------



## Bender

Can't wait for 2022 !


----------



## MichiH

Bender said:


> Can't wait for 2022 !


Why? 2022 is not the end of motorway construction...


----------



## Bender

MichiH said:


> Why? 2022 is not the end of motorway construction...


No but I am so excited by these 6km additional Autobahn! :banana:


----------



## MichiH

Bender said:


> No but I am so excited by these 6km additional Autobahn! :banana:


There won't be a 6km section opening but a 18.5km opening though. Malching-Kirchham will (must) be opened together with the neighboring section. That means, 18.5km between Malching and Pocking (A3) will be opened at once 

The 2nd A94 section does not yet have building permits but it's expected to be issued soon. The 1st section contains an artificial tunnel, that's why the construction takes longer than for the 2nd one.


----------



## MichiH

*A448 Bochum*



MichiH said:


> *A448:* rededication AD Bochum-West – AS Bochum-South 5.0km (Mid 2015) – project – map
> *A448:* AS Altenbochum (East) – AK Bochum/Witten 1.4km (October 2012 to Summer 2017) – project – map
> *A448:* rededication AS Bochum-South – AS Altenbochum (West) 1.8km (Mid 2018) – project – map
> *A448:* AS Altenbochum (West) – AS Altenbochum (East) 1.9km (October 2012 to Mid 2018) – project – map


There's a problem with an adit (underground mine). It's much more complex to make it safe. For that reason, Altenbochum - AK Bochum/Witten section is delayed and will be opened in spring 2018 at the earliest. Source.

The section was planned to be opened by late 2016 (June 2015 version). The other section u/c is not mentioned now and the 'Mid 2018' announcement is still from June 2015. I think everyone know what we can expect... hno:


----------



## MichiH

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen*



MichiH said:


> *A30:* AS Bad Oeynhausen-North – AS Dehme 1.6km (September 2008 to 12th March 2014) – project – map
> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to 2018) [discontinuation: 1.4km] – project – map
> *A30:* AS Dehme – AS Bad Oeynhausen-East 1.9km (September 2008 to 2018) – project – map


It was reported in August that the A30 bypass might be opened earlier - in late 2017. Source. It was reported in October, that the completion might be delayed. Source. The project manager of Straßen.NRW road authority said in December, that *"there's no completion date"*. It's possible that the bypass will be opened in 2019 if the construction company wants. Source.



> "Wir haben keinerlei juristische Druckmittel. Wenn es der Firma gefällt, könnte es auch 2019 werden, bis die Nordumgehung freigegeben wird".


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Why on earth did they break this mini project up in two parts? It is barely 2.5 kilometers of new Autobahn...

We have been discussing this project on the Dutch _Wegenforum_ since 2010. At that time, it was posted that the right-of-way acquirement would start in late 2010, and real construction would start in late 2011, with a completion in late 2013. Now we're talking about a completion in 2018.

According to a post from me in 2011, the start of construction (earthworks) would've occurred in October 2011, but the source is now a 404 page. Official start was 30 October 2012.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> According to a post from me in 2011, the start of construction (earthworks) would've occurred in October 2011, but the source is now a 404 page. Official start was 30 October 2012.


A448  Preliminary works (retention basin) began in September 2010. Preliminary works for the first bridge began in September 2012. The official groundbreaking ceremony took place on 30th October 2012, the construction of the first bridge began in November 2012.


----------



## TM_Germany

Patrick said:


> oh, is the new A3 section in Limburg, Hesse, already finished? No Baustellen-sign there on the map.


The resurfacing of the Elzer Berg section was completed some time ago (though they did a shoddy job on the center and left lanes). The new bridge and its approaches are finished as well but there are still some minor works going on. I'm pretty sure that those works aren't on the main carriageways but on the AS Limburg-Nord, though. I haven't been there for a couple of weeks now but most of the stuff is definitely done.


----------



## Patrick

then I'll check for myself on my day off tomorrow 

damn, it's been quite a while I made photos from the Autobahn but somehow I just got new motivation


----------



## Patrick

ok, let's start with our little A3-Trip through the Westerwald region. Unfortunately it was cloudy and constantly raining, so it was quite hard making photos with my old camera having to pay attention to the windshield wipers and looking through the viewfinder of the camera as the LCD-Screen is broken...

here is a small map of where I have been:









I started and finished at exit 37 - Dierdorf, first headed to the south, got off at Montabaur to see the new B255 bypassing some villages north of Montabaur, got back to the A3 to Limburg to see how far construction is at the new river Lahn bridge, I turned in Bad Camberg to drive through the whole geographical Westerwald region northbound, turning in Lohmar northeast of Bonn to get back to Dierdorf.

Although the area this Autobahn runs through is rather rural, the Autobahn is rather crowded as it is one of the major connections between the most populous german urban areas: Rhein-Ruhr and Rhein-Main. Therefore there are also many parking and rest areas along the route.

Due to the weather and as I was driving by myself there were not many opportunities to catch the landscape and things around the Autobahn, so I mostly photographed the signs and road...

Getting onto the A3 in Dierdorf (this Dernbach to the right is the place where the Ludolf family used to have its junkyard (which was a famous tv-show in Germany 10 years ago)):









After ca. 5 km, we get to the Sessenhausen rest area. These small extra signs that show which restaurants/shops/gast stations can be found there are rather new and have been introduced to our signage system I think about ten years ago (?).









The region got some smooth hills and is a typical mid-german hilly region, so we are always riding up and down, no flatland, no straight road, always curves. To the right, you can see the high-speed-railtrack between Köln and Frankfurt. While the old Autobahn moves left-right-left around the hill, the new railroad just tunnels the hill.









Annoucement of a small parking area









Annoucement of an Autohof. An Autohof is a rest/service area directly near the Autobahn, but you must leave the Autobahn at the next exit to get there.









And this is the next exit: 38 - Ransbach-Baumbach. We have now been on the Autobahn for about 12 km since Dierdorf.









Just 1 km after the exit, Dernbach (not the same Dernbach as near Dierdorf) interchange is announced. The A48 coming from the Eifel region between Koblenz and Trier ends here. Especially in the morning there's alwys lots of traffic on this small stretch between Ransbach-Baumbach and Dernbach as lots of people commute to Koblenz for work and get on the Autobahn in Ransbach.









Distances after Dreieck Dernbach:









Rest areas are usually firstly announed 5 km before. The next one is coming:









Next exit is coming: 40 - Montabaur. 









Two years ago, a Factory Outlet Center opened just across the ICE-railroad station in Montabaur, but to my impression, it has not (yet) the reputation and drawing power as Wertheim Village or Designer Outlet Roermond for example:









We're about to leave the Autobahn here:









this was btw my weekly way to school for the last 2,5 years.

more to come


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A3 between Köln and Frankfurt is one of the busiest intercity routes in Germany, entirely six lanes (since the 1970s if I'm not mistaken) and carries quite a bit of traffic, though congestion is usually the result of roadworks or accidents, because six lanes can carry 75,000 - 90,000 vehicles per day without much trouble, though the steep inclines may reduce capacity somewhat due to slow trucks.


----------



## TM_Germany

^^ as well as the generally large share of trucks.


----------



## Patrick

the B255 is part of the connection between the cities of Koblenz and Siegen, two cities bigger than 100,000 inh. about 100 km away from each other and not directly connected via the Autobahn, so traffic between these two cities has to move through lots of villages, so the road gets partly expanded and re-aligned to bypass some of the villages

this traffic-light from A3 southbound exit to B255 causes long queues during the daily rush hours









this old bridge of the A3 surpassing the B255 is, I guess, the main reason why this small stretch between the southbound and the northbound exit of the A3 is still only 1+1. During rush hours, that's a real bottleneck in both directions.









northbound A3 exit









exit to Heiligenroth Business area









exit to Staudt. We're now having a small stretch of 2+2 road for about 2 km. This whole new stretch of the B255 is constantly changing betewen 1+1, 2+1 and 2+2.









exit to Boden (south)









exit to Moschheim









exit to Niederahr









this railroad bridge made this new stretch famous in a negative way. originally planned as 2+1, they just realized after the bridge was finished that they can't make 2+1 as it's to narrow...
http://www.swr.de/swraktuell/rp/sch...rden/-/id=1682/did=18429742/nid=1682/1j9gsy5/
https://www.zdf.de/politik/laenderspiegel/videos/12112016-hammer-100.html
https://www.facebook.com/ZDF/videos/1168569506552010/
(articles + videos in German)









exit to Oberahr









shiny barriers in struma-quality (just imagine how they'd shine if the sun was shining)









exit to Ettinghausen









the B255 shares this small stretch with B8









exit to Arnshöfen









end of the renovated road. this is now the old 1+1 running through villages. I turned in the next village to get back to the A3. We have now driven 11 km since we left the A3 to this point.









more to come


----------



## Patrick

and now the same again in opposite direction, so I'll spare any comments in this part...:


























































































































































more to come


----------



## Patrick

back on the autobahn, the next rest area is already waiting for us









41 - Diez: Last exit in Rhineland-Palatinate









Last small uphill section before rolling down the famous Elzer Berg


















Several changes have been made during the last years. The speed limit for the right lane was 40 km/h not that long ago, had been increased to 60 or 80 in the meantime, and is now at 100 as the other lanes.









The two overhead-radars are still there doing their work.


















In the past, there was a fourth permanent overhead sign with 100 + 100 + 40/80 speed limit there. Now it has been upgraded to a dynamical electronic sign









This one is completely new as far as i know. If I remember correctly, the old permament limits ended here.









Small construction site while approaching Limburg-Nord. We're in Hessen now, the signs look different. There used to be also a rest area integrated in this exit, I don't know if it will be rebuilt.









Although the B49 shares it's road with the B54 here, the B54 is not signed (anymore).


















But it used to be as you can see on this older sign which still remains.









Roadworks ahead









We're now approaching the new bridge over the Lahn river. It was built to widen the road to 4+4 here, because the old bridge was only 3+3. This stretch between Limburg-Nord and Limburg-Süd carries lots of regional traffic as the inner city of Limburg is bypassed here. Main goal of course is to reduce congestion at rush hour here.


















We're now on the other side of the Lahn river and have geographically quit the Westerwald region. Selters and Königstein are new and had not been signed here in the past.


















distanes after exit Limburg-Süd









the next exit, Bad Camberg (with integrated rest area), I turned and drove all the way back to Dierdorf and further to the northern border of the Westerwald region, pictures to follow...


----------



## Ni3lS

Patrick said:


> ok, let's start with our little A3-Trip through the Westerwald region. Unfortunately it was cloudy and constantly raining, so it was quite hard making photos with my old camera having to pay attention to the windshield wipers and looking through the viewfinder of the camera as the LCD-Screen is broken...
> 
> here is a small map of where I have been:


I've driven the A3 many times now but particularly remember the stretch of your first few photos. It's that part where you go downhill with the railroad on the right where 6 years ago I noticed my dials stopped working and there was something wrong with the battery. The small parking lot is where I went to park and called ADAC, the car wouldn't start anymore. The dynamo appeared to be broken and I had to stay the night in Ransbach Baumbach, one of the weirdest towns ever :lol:


----------



## Patrick

how far is Ransbach-Baumbach one of the weirdest towns ever?  (I've just been there yesterday for dinner)


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Patrick said:


> the B255 is part of the connection between the cities of Koblenz and Siegen, two cities bigger than 100,000 inh. about 100 km away from each other and not directly connected via the Autobahn, so traffic between these two cities has to move through lots of villages, so the road gets partly expanded and re-aligned to bypass some of the villages
> 
> [...]
> 
> shiny barriers in struma-quality (just imagine how they'd shine if the sun was shining)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]


^^
The famous shiny crash barriers on the struma highway!
:rofl:
I think not many users remember this old SSC legend.


----------



## Pansori

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> I think not many users remember this old SSC legend.


Wrong. I was driving a couple of days ago in Vilnius with another fellow forumer and we observed some shiny crash barriers on the newly built Vilnius Western bypass road. We concluded that they passed the requirements of shininess. Although admittedly it's relatively difficult to find such barriers over here in Lithuania.


----------



## geogregor

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> ^^
> The famous shiny crash barriers on the struma highway!
> :rofl:
> I think not many users remember this old SSC legend.


Some of us do remember


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

Demolition of the old Lennetalbrucke on the A45 in Hagen (NRW). opcorn:
The bridge is almost 1000 m long and was built in 1967.





The A45 has the most large bridges in Germany and almost all will be replaced by new ones during the next years and the A45 will be enlarged to 2x3.

I used that bridge for over 25 years.  My home city is Ludenscheid not far away from it (around 20 km further south on the A45). 

So I will have one of Germany's largest road construction sites near my home during the next 10-15 years. :apple:











Here you can see very good the old bridge and one of the new bridges next to it. The second new bridge will be build when the old one is gone.


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

And one really cool idea: All new bridges, sound barriers and other objects which will be build on the modernised A45 will have a special colour code.

This means for example that all the bridges around Hagen will be blue and further south yellow and red. You can see it good in the last video I posted above. The new bridge is blue. :yes:

The plan is to keep the drivers "entertained" on long distances. They should be more concentrated when they will notice the change in colours as they drive on the A45.

Example of a new bridge from the "blue sector". 








^^
As you can see there will be more than just the three blue, yellow and red sectors. Each stretch will have different colour shades as well. 

Here you can see the three colour stretches.


----------



## g.spinoza

Baustellen in Germany should address other issues than colours.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What about 'Fake Baustellen'? 

http://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/u...e-baustellen-auf-der-autobahn_id_7083804.html

_Sogenannte künstliche Baustellen sollen auf der Autobahn A1 vor dem Kreuz Leverkusen dauerhaft die Unfallzahlen reduzieren. Das berichtet der WDR. Die "Fake"-Baustelle sieht aus wie eine echte - inklusive Spurbegrenzung, gelben Linien und einem Tempolimit von 80 km/h. Nur gebaut wird dort nichts. Hintergrund dieser ungewöhnlichen Aktion: Die Bezirksregierung Köln stellte fest, dass eine echte Baustelle die Unfallzahlen vor dem Leverkusener Kreuz reduzierte._

They are going to implement fake construction zones in Northrhine-Westphalia. They will paint yellow lines, reduce the speed limit to 80 km/h. Evidently this reduces crashes at the end of the traffic jam that forms due to the real bottleneck.

Kreuz Leverkusen is where A1 and A3 meet. There is massive congestion here due to expansion and renovation works on A3 (both north and south of the interchange) and the truck ban on the A1 Rhine River Bridge. Last year there were over 300 crashes in the traffic jam for this bottleneck. They hope to reduce those by installing a fake construction zone.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A46 Bestwig - Olsberg*

Straßen NRW speaks of 'end of 2019' for the completion of A46 near Olsberg now. They started construction in september 2009.

https://www.strassen.nrw.de/presse/meldungen/2017/pi2017-2-1675.html

The project contains the highest bridge in Nordrhein-Westfalen, the _Talbrücke Nuttlar_. But this bridge is not the reason for the slow progress, the bridge was more or less completed in late 2015.

I took this photo in October 2015:


A46 Talbrucke Nuttlar-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

As I wrote before, Germany has a problem with what should be basic multi-site project management.

Suppose that, over the long-term horizon (say, 25 years), there is money to complete a list 'T' of 30 simultaneous projects in a region/state, and that each project is only useful in a binary manner (no intermediate benefit until project is completed).

At extremes, ignoring fixed costs for now, there are two options:
(1) move all projects at turtle speed, so that they are more or less completed simultaneously a quarter of century from now
(2) start one project and finish it quickly, then move to the next, until the 30th project is started/finished on 25th year.

Of course things are not that simple, but basically what German states and the federal government do is to spread the wealth, so to speak, to many projects simultaneously, each moving at glacial pace, hence hundreds of "baustellen" all over the country.

Instead, they should have a much lower number of simultaneous projects under construction at any given time, but move on each of them more quickly. Actually, now factoring in fixed costs, this would reduce the overall worksite, supervision, safety bill and dramatically reduce the losses due to extra congestion brought by the absurd number of road projects in-situ. 

I understand there might be some political factors, especially the threat that projects without construction started getting targeted for more last-minute lawsuits, but still Switzerland and Netherlands show how it is possible to have a much better approach to road construction when you have a lot (NL) or not so much (CH) money allocated to road network expansion.


----------



## Wolfgang16

At the moment there seems to be plenty of money, so that projects which are really ready for building have a good chance for soon realization although they are not in high priority. One example is the Auerberg Tunnel on B2 (A95) between Eschenlohe and Oberau. Plannings have been completed long time ago for the Winter Olympics 2018. After cancelling the Olympics in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, the tunnel has been cancelled, too. Now the chances are good that the Auerberg Tunnel will be build right after the completion of the Oberau Tunnel (B2) in 2021. Preworks will probably start in 2019.

Source


----------



## threo2k

Wolfgang16 said:


> Good news this that the Kramer Tunnel will be build now
> 
> Source in German
> 
> So we improve road connections in this region while Austria does nothing.


Where exactly is this located?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Garmisch-Partenkirchen: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/47.4951/11.0783


----------



## Heico-M

That is definitely needed. Traffic in Garmisch is horrible!


----------



## rudiwien

Wolfgang16 said:


> Why should we pay twice? When the Austrian "Pickerl" started it was said that at least the Tschirgant Tunnel would be paid from that, but nothing happened.



I don't know who said that about the tunnel, but I don't think there was any official statement like that 

In any case, I don't say you need to "pay twice". Just that I don't see improvements happening there in the scale that would bring the capacity increases you wish for, and no political will, unless you bring in a grand solution, which however Austria is very likely not going to pay for...



Wolfgang16 said:


> Austria (Tirol to be precise) doesn't want this road. My bet is that the Fernpass Tunnel will never be build. That the people in Ausserfern (Reutte and surroundings) have a bad road connection to their capital doesn't play a role. I only regret that building the A7 up to the border was a complete waste of money. A normal road would have been enough.



The situation is not as simple as you make it sound.

What most people in Tirol do *not* want is to have is yet another transit corridor opened that would attract even more traffic through the alps there. But if you build the tunnels, you will effectively get that, because a more attractive road will attract also more transit traffic.
Further there is the fear that if you eliminate all mountain passes (by tunnels), you cannot easily keep the ban on trucks > 7.5 tons, which they currently can have in place due to the road geometry. And to have the really heavy long haul trucks passing through, is surely the last thing required there..


Yes, likely building A7 to the border was not required, especially when long before the motorway was extended to there, the treaty about the border-crossing tunnel only provisioned for one tube and 2 lanes. So building the part from Dreieck Allgäu to Füssen with two lanes would likely have been sufficient for the local traffic.




Wolfgang16 said:


> Good news this that the Kramer Tunnel will be build now
> 
> Source in German
> 
> So we improve road connections in this region while Austria does nothing.



I think that statement is not particularly fair. If there was a huge demand for inner-Austrian traffic from Innsbruck to Reutte, and if it would be doable to provide a better road connection for them without making that connection a transit route, I think they would do it.
In the current circumstances, there seems to be no real advantage for Austria to do that.

You may compare the road situation with the situation of the train connection between Salzburg and Kufstein via Chiemsee. Nothing really happening there for a likely long time to see, and quite understandably from Deutsche Bahn, as for them, that track is not that important, and they further have identified a different route via Mühldorf to connect Munich to Salzburg, while for Austria, it is the fastest east-west connection...

The improvements done around Garmisch likewise are mostly profiting the easy access to the winter resorts there for the visitors coming from the north. A real improvement for the transit routes would also be in building a long tunnel from south of Garmisch to Telfs at the Austrian A12. I don't think that this would be very popular with people around Garmisch either...


----------



## Christian_AT

Wolfgang16 said:


> Why should we pay twice? When the Austrian "Pickerl" started it was said that at least the Tschirgant Tunnel would be paid from that, but nothing happened. Austria (Tirol to be precise) doesn't want this road. My bet is that the Fernpass Tunnel will never be build. That the people in Ausserfern (Reutte and surroundings) have a bad road connection to their capital doesn't play a role. I only regret that building the A7 up to the border was a complete waste of money. A normal road would have been enough.
> 
> Wolfgang


short:
austria said for decades NO motorway, building a motorway to the border with this knowledge is only stupid waste of money




Wolfgang16 said:


> Good news this that the Kramer Tunnel will be build now
> 
> Source in German
> 
> So we improve road connections in this region while Austria does nothing.


kramer tunnel is only a local improvement, no international benefits

#######

then go to the international story what you mention in your posts:


motorway danube-phyrn route = austria decades ago was late, now germany is starting refurbishment, austria is already finished
1:0
motorway tauern = austria twined alp tunnels, germany has done nothing on rosenheim-salzburg very bad condition no sholders
2:0
railway brenner = inn valley build a long distance 2 new tracks, last section in approval process, brenner base tunnel in construction, german side NOTHING
3:0

a clear story about international traffic connections, a clear loosing germany and this are the 3 international important tracks


----------



## Wolfgang16

rudiwien said:


> What most people in Tirol do not want is to have is yet another transit corridor opened that would attract even more traffic through the alps there. But if you build the tunnels, you will effectively get that, because a more attractive road will attract also more transit traffic.
> Further there is the fear that if you eliminate all mountain passes (by tunnels), you cannot easily keep the ban on trucks > 7.5 tons, which they currently can have in place due to the road geometry. And to have the really heavy long haul trucks passing through, is surely the last thing required there..


Yes exactly this is the problem, I was only too lazy to write it down. But the consequence is what I said: the Fernpass tunnel will never be built. There is no village at that stretch, no bypass is needed, so nothing is to be done. I know the situation at the A12 transit corridor in the Inn valley and I can understand people there. The A12 is not only present down in the valley. If you go up on the slopes on both sides of the valley you can here the traffic wide up to the peaks of the mountains. May be the Brenner base tunnel can improve that in the far future, but I doubt that the will raise the acceptance of a second transit corridor.



rudiwien said:


> I don't know who said that about the tunnel, but I don't think there was any official statement like that


As far as I remember there was some sort of plan which projects will be financed from the vignette, in order to show people where the money will go to and raise the acceptance of the vignette. Of course most projects were in East Austria, but there was also the Tschirgant tunnel (which is located between Nasserreith and Haiming) in that (not the Fernpass tunnel) and it should have been finished in 2011. But in contrast to the Fernpass tunnel I can imagine the Tschirgant tunnel will be built one day in the far future, because there are small villages at the existing roads which suffer from the traffic. Of course thats all a 2 lane road and no motorway. 

Regarding the A7 its of course the fault of our government. The situation in Tirol must have been known. But they built it after they finally won the 30 years long court proceedings regardless whether it was needed or not. I think that nobody wanted to admit that all the money for the court was wasted. 

I am talking here about the situation in West Austria (especially Tirol) because that bothers us Munich citizens when travelling to Italy or Switzerland (there is another gimmick since Austria and Switzerland seem to be the only main developed countries in the European Union which don't have a motorway connection, but thats another topic). For us Kramer tunnel is a big improvement. Munich - Garmisch - Landeck is an important route for us. The extension to St. Moritz and Italy is also great, Switzerland is continuously improving it.

The situation in East Austria seems to be different and I am not so familiar with that.




Christian_AT said:


> motorway danube-phyrn route = austria decades ago was late, now germany is starting refurbishment, austria is already finished
> 1:0
> motorway tauern = austria twined alp tunnels, germany has done nothing on rosenheim-salzburg very bad condition no sholders
> 2:0


Phyrn route in Austria took a long time to be finished. The much older German part needs refurbishment. I don't understand where is the 1:0 for Austria. Austria twinned the tunnels on the Tauern motorway, but this was mainly done to avoid terrible accidents in the 2-lane tunnel. Traffic jams happened only at a few holiday weekends due to the infamous "Blockabfertigung". I don't think that this has a big effect on the general traffic amount. Also take into account that Tauern and Phyrn were "Sondermaut" stretches right from the beginning i.e. long before the vignette. I doubt that all the toll has been spent only for the tunnels and the nearby motorway, so the money for the second tunnel tubes has been collected long before the tubes were built.

Ok, A8 Rosenheim - Salzburg is narrow but that could be enough feeding the Tauern motorway. I am not an expert, but instead of widening an existing road it is often more efficient to build a second road parallel in some distance. If you need an decent motorway from Bregenz to Vienna you can use A94 Munich - Braunau which should be finally completed soon. You only need to build a short connection to A8. As far as I know this was planned in the beginning, but was skipped by Austria. I don't know why. (We must extend A94 now to Pocking in order to avoid that it ends in the middle of nowhere. This makes no sense.) The resulting connection would even be 30km shorter than via Rosenheim and Salzburg.

Regarding the railway connections you are right. The Deutsche Bahn focussed to much on main connections in Germany. The railway connection from Munich to Switzerland is also terrible despite the new Gotthard base tunnel. But thats again another topic.


----------



## Wilhem275

I'm guilty of having this OT started  I'll just add that I can understand the Austrian and Swiss refusal for more corridors, but maybe they would show a less strict attitude if there could be an effective ban on heavy trucks.
But Italy and Germany are too dependent on the trucking industry, they'll always lobby for more truck corridors despite the heavy investments in the Alpine railway network.

Today opening a new road means creating new traffic, the last thing we need. Since there's no practical way to put a cap on the amount of vehicles... I can't really blame the Austrians.


----------



## rudiwien

Yes, a bit offtopic, but well 

- I think that counting "score" is anyhow not fit here. But besides this, if one did it, the 1:0 for Austria for the Phyrn corridor is indeed a bit weird, because we are not even yet finished with twinning it, though it is almost there now (1 year for the tunnels in Oberösterreich, 2 years for the Gleinalmtunnel, though for that one, there was already since some time the twinned alternative via Bruck/Mur on S35/S36).


- Indeed, two tunnels on this connection always had Sondermaut. And true, the major impetus for actually twinning is safety concerns, and new regulations that mandate at least an emergency tunnel built in parallel for longer tunnels. For example for the Perjentunnel on the S16 (Tirol <=> Vorarlberg) they initially planned to have an emergency tunnel and still use contraflow in the new tube, but they then decided to fully twin it (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjentunnel)


- There used to be a practical way to cap the amount of heavy vehicles, Austria negotiated that when joining the EU in 1995. Unfortunately, they were a bit naive, and the agreement was limited in time, without having provisioned for a good leverage to extend it. So since the early 2000s, there is no more cap. And the problem with the Brenner crossing (and the Fernpass, because there is no toll on it...) is that it is much cheaper than crossings in Switzerland, but there is also a limit on how high the price tag can be, which is mostly determined by the cost of the infrastructure, and that is relatively little for Brenner with no tunnel etc.. (see directive 1999/62/EC). Countries like Austria try to have also external costs included in this formula..


- I agree that the A94 will be the much more logical connection Vienna-Munich, skipping Salzburg, and leaving the A8 mainly for the Munich-Salzburg-Villach-beach route. Indeed initially, this was planned, and in Ried im Innkreis, there was already an interchange prepared, see https://www.google.at/maps/@48.2435178,13.5121057,2186m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=de
However, it was later decided by Austria to not have a corridor crossing the Inn at Braunau. I still think that it would be useful to connect the Austrian A8 better with the German A94, maybe around Bad Füssing. But I don't see that very realistic in the near future.

- Even more off-topic, Austria <-> Switzerland connections - while we have parallel motorways on each side of the Rhine for quite some distance, there is indeed no motorway connection as of yet. However, it is planned to have one in approx. 10 years, the Bodenseeschnellstrasse (in Austria, a Schnellstrasse nowadays is exactly built the same way as a motorway, only older Schnellstrassen have potentially different standards):
http://www.asfinag.at/verkehrssiche...knoten-dornbirn-bis-staatsgrenze-bei-hoechst/


----------



## bogdymol

Wolfgang16 said:


> If you need an decent motorway from Bregenz to Vienna you can use A94 Munich - Braunau which should be finally completed soon. You only need to build a short connection to A8. As far as I know this was planned in the beginning, but was skipped by Austria. I don't know why. (We must extend A94 now to Pocking in order to avoid that it ends in the middle of nowhere. This makes no sense.) The resulting connection would even be 30km shorter than via Rosenheim and Salzburg.


Are there any serious plans for completing A94 anytime soon?


----------



## Christian_AT

bogdymol said:


> Are there any serious plans for completing A94 anytime soon?



not really, the biggest Problem is solved in about 26 months, 


but built as PPP, a Modell that you can describe like a "motorway lease", contractor build the missing part in between the existing ones (Pastetten-Heldenstein) and operates it for 30 years and get fixed Money every year


the missing Piece to the border is not the biggest Problem, local roads are actual enough, i now always use this route, shorter and the non-motorway sections you have to accept drive 70-80 kmh but motorway sections less traffic and you can go always fast


----------



## Christian_AT

Wolfgang16 said:


> Phyrn route in Austria took a long time to be finished. The much older German part needs refurbishment. I don't understand where is the 1:0 for Austria. Austria twinned the tunnels on the Tauern motorway, but this was mainly done to avoid terrible accidents in the 2-lane tunnel. Traffic jams happened only at a few holiday weekends due to the infamous "Blockabfertigung". I don't think that this has a big effect on the general traffic amount. Also take into account that Tauern and Phyrn were "Sondermaut" stretches right from the beginning i.e. long before the vignette. I doubt that all the toll has been spent only for the tunnels and the nearby motorway, so the money for the second tunnel tubes has been collected long before the tubes were built.
> 
> Ok, A8 Rosenheim - Salzburg is narrow but that could be enough feeding the Tauern motorway. I am not an expert, but instead of widening an existing road it is often more efficient to build a second road parallel in some distance. If you need an decent motorway from Bregenz to Vienna you can use A94 Munich - Braunau which should be finally completed soon. You only need to build a short connection to A8. As far as I know this was planned in the beginning, but was skipped by Austria. I don't know why. (We must extend A94 now to Pocking in order to avoid that it ends in the middle of nowhere. This makes no sense.) The resulting connection would even be 30km shorter than via Rosenheim and Salzburg.
> 
> Regarding the railway connections you are right. The Deutsche Bahn focussed to much on main connections in Germany. The railway connection from Munich to Switzerland is also terrible despite the new Gotthard base tunnel. But thats again another topic.



1. phyrn is in Austria YOUNGER (yes we was late), but we had already refurbished it complete, Germany is in the first stages of this process with the older motorway


2. A8 Germany is in very BAD condition and Need a sholder and extra lane, no discussion about that, on Austria side the last 10 years a lot of Money is put into refurbishment and twining


3. the toll "sondermaut" was always the finance of the first tubes, asfinag was created 1997 and took the debts of different single companies built Initial this sections, uniting These companies asfinag took about 6550 Million euro debts, yearly Revenue from the "sondermaut" is about 150-200 Million, with finance costs the "sondermaut" should have repaid the FIRST tubes in about year 2030, not even talk about the second tube and refurbish costs


the reality is clear, in Austria has EVERYBODY pay for the motorways, but yes it is a Price worth to pay, if you drive over the border bad condition and too less lanes / tracks on really important international routes (A7 or kramer tunnel are per Definition only local stories)


----------



## rudiwien

bogdymol said:


> Are there any serious plans for completing A94 anytime soon?



The german Wikipedia page is quite updated I think:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesautobahn_94#Baufortschritt_im_weiteren_Verlauf

In addition, you can check the website of the "Autobahndirektion Südbayern", at http://www.abdsb.bayern.de/projekte/

They have an overview map what is currently under construction (yellow):


- For the longest section under construction between Pastetten and Heldenstein, mentioned by cristian, which is done as PPP, you can find a website at http://www.isentalautobahn.de/bau/bauphasen
Work started early 2016, and the contract foresees opening in October 2019

- The other section currently under construction is Malching to Kirchham. They also started 2016, but some sections are built in a noise-protecting tunnel, and they thus expect 5-6 years of construction time. But this section is rather short, and not that critical

You can see also on OSM the sections under construction:
Pastetten to Heldenstein: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.2345/12.0929

And the section close to Kircham:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/48.3511/13.2682


----------



## MattiG

rudiwien said:


> - For the longest section under construction between Pastetten and Heldenstein, mentioned by cristian, which is done as PPP, you can find a website at http://www.isentalautobahn.de/bau/bauphasen
> Work started early 2016, and the contract foresees opening in October 2019


So, in the PPP mode, it takes a few years to complete tens of kilometers of road, while normally it takes tens of years to complete a few kilometers?


----------



## flierfy

Wolfgang16 said:


> I only regret that building the A7 up to the border was a complete waste of money. A normal road would have been enough.


There is nothing to be regretted. The A 7 links Füssen to the rest of the country after all. And that alone is worth completing this motorway. We aim to stretch our motorway network to all corners of the country after all. This improves connectivity even to the remotest part.
It is an Austrian problem and not ours, when their mountain valleys remain isolated due to inappropriate transport links. I wouldn't want to swap with them by no means.


----------



## Christian_AT

MattiG said:


> So, in the PPP mode, it takes a few years to complete tens of kilometers of road, while normally it takes tens of years to complete a few kilometers?


only because of stupid bad management in normal projects, the A94 for example the section Malching - Kirchham which has offical a construction time of 6 years,

this section has a complex building, the construction of this section started offical ONE year ago, what they have done, the build a small minor bridge, start with the complex building with a long time to finish, no thanks, only make a party for starting, use some money to build something minor which stands years not used in the landscape

PPP or other countries think in projects, at which day i have to start which point to finish the project in short time, it does not help to throw money out of the window for parts which i cant use,
but germany is stupid, important is only to start, finish is not important, spread the money on a lot of projects and have nothing finished

a nice example is this:
https://www.google.de/maps/@48.9252662,8.5723744,1141a,35y,39.1t/data=!3m1!1e3
it was a close the gap project, connection sections are already widendend from 2+2 to s3+3s, they build this new big bridge early, it was finished for 2 complete years and wasn't / can't be used because of the height changes and alignment changes in total, 
other countries would have invested the money in the other parts of the project and build this bridge as last step, with a handling like this you can shrink the 2+2 section to a very short piece early and as last step build the bridge, there would be only winners, not in germany :bash:


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## ChrisZwolle

It seems that in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and private concession projects, all the money to complete the project is available from the start, so they can complete the project without phasing or having to wait for the next allocation of money. 

I think only Switzerland uses this phased construction like Germany sometimes. A9 in Wallis/Valais being the worst example perhaps. It's one thing to cut up large projects in more manageable sub projects of 7 - 10 kilometers, but in Germany you'll often see bridges built in the fields that then stand unused for years because the earthworks and actual road construction are tendered much later. There is an increasing number of examples of straightforward Autobahn projects that require up to 10 years of work, while other countries complete it in three years or less. 

For example A30 at Bad Oeynhausen is now under construction for 9 years. They built two larger bridges across the Werra River that were completed around 2012 and will not be used until 2019 or so.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems that in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and private concession projects, all the money to complete the project is available from the start, so they can complete the project without phasing or having to wait for the next allocation of money.


At least in the Finnish PPP projects, the operator is responsible for financing the project. Therefore, a typical consortium consists of one or two construction companies and an investment bank. Therefore, the money is available when needed. Most projects have completed well ahead the planned schedule.

A few municipalities have entered the PPP mode in new areas: Some schools are operated in a PPP mode.


----------



## Christian_AT

ChrisZwolle said:


> It seems that in the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland and private concession projects, all the money to complete the project is available from the start, so they can complete the project without phasing or having to wait for the next allocation of money.
> 
> I think only Switzerland uses this phased construction like Germany sometimes. A9 in Wallis/Valais being the worst example perhaps. It's one thing to cut up large projects in more manageable sub projects of 7 - 10 kilometers, but in Germany you'll often see bridges built in the fields that then stand unused for years because the earthworks and actual road construction are tendered much later. There is an increasing number of examples of straightforward Autobahn projects that require up to 10 years of work, while other countries complete it in three years or less.
> 
> For example A30 at Bad Oeynhausen is now under construction for 9 years. They built two larger bridges across the Werra River that were completed around 2012 and will not be used until 2019 or so.


exactly, in germany is money spread to start a lot of projects, nothing is finished because the money is used on too much projects

in austria and your mentioned countries there is only a start if the funding is secured for the complete section to have no stops, start building and build and finish in a fast time without delays, if there is not enough money this project is not startet and this money from the actual year is used for other projects to improve the network

it is sad to watch, always i pass such sections the question why, only for a party to offical start and then years nothing, dead money to watch hno:


----------



## Wilhem275

flierfy said:


> There is nothing to be regretted. The A 7 links Füssen to the rest of the country after all. *And that alone is worth completing this motorway*. We aim to stretch our motorway network to all corners of the country after all. This improves connectivity even to the remotest part.


Well, with this logic any possible connection is worth building a full motorway... there should be something relevant in that corner to connet it.

Also there are respectable solutions even without going full-Autobahn.
Since the tunnel and the whole road on the Austrian side have two lanes, following a similar design would have sufficed easily, let's say south of Allgäu Dreieck.

It seems there are way more important priorities. Just to give an example, I find it strange that A7 is at top design standard all the way into nothing, and B10 between Göppingen and Ulm still passes through villages.

When I travel on that A7 part I get the impression it was built to try forcing the Austrians to do the same.


----------



## Heico-M

Wilhem275 said:


> When I travel on that A7 part I get the impression it was built to try forcing the Austrians to do the same.


Quite an interesting argument. 


And not to forget, to get all those tourists transported to Neuschwanstein.


----------



## roaddor

Mistakes happen everywhere. The Germans know what they are doing and the road problems will be fixed. More important, however, is to get rid of die Oma.


----------



## MichiH

roaddor said:


> Mistakes happen everywhere.


Yes.



> The Germans know what they are doing


No, definitely no!



> and the road problems will be fixed.


Yes but it's a painful and long way...



> More important, however, is to get rid of die Oma.


No.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> A section of A20 west of the Tribsees interchange was built over a bog. It opened to traffic in 2005. However, the Autobahn started to subside, the subsidence is now so bad that they closed the westbound carriageway.
> 
> They are now conducting a review on the subsidence but the thought is that piles on which the motorway was built have broken off. The repair can take up to two years.
> 
> Motorways are frequently built on piles when they run through bogs. This should prevent excess settlement and subsidence. Several Autobahns in Northern Germany are built this way, most recently A21 near Nettelsee. It's not an uncommon method abroad either (the Netherlands also has some).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.regierung-mv.de/Aktuell/?id=131768&processor=processor.sa.pressemitteilung


The Autobahn is now destroyed:


----------



## cinxxx

^^another great German achievement!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A20 collapse*

Based on this video report: https://www.svz.de/regionales/meckl...es-vollends-zusammengebrochen-id18034816.html

The collapse has occurred here:









media report that this section is 14 years old, however it is 12 years old. A20 opened to traffic in 2003 west of Tribsees, but there was a temporary endpoint (which you can see on the left side of the satellite imagery) because the section across the bog wasn't completed at that time.

This portion of A20 opened to traffic on 7 December 2005, it was the final section of the original A20 (Lübeck - Uckermark) to be completed.


----------



## flierfy

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Autobahn is now destroyed


No, it isn't. Only a short section is. A section which is one of the least trafficked ones of the entire network.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B3/B6 Südschnellweg, Hannover*

The Südschnellweg in Hannover is in poor condition. It appears that the viaduct in the Döhren neighborhood will be replaced by a circa 1 kilometer long tunnel. A 4 kilometer section of B3/B6 will be reconstructed the cost is estimated at € 300 million.

They will proceed the planning of a tunnel, however the current viaduct will first be replaced by a temporary viaduct in 2022-2023. The current viaduct is in such a poor condition that it had to be narrowed to one lane in each direction circa 2012-2013.


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## cinxxx

^^When was that road built?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Probably in the 1960s. This section of B3/B6 is not a true Gelbe Autobahn, it lacks shoulders and is built on a very narrow profile.

Here you can see the narrowed viaduct to one lane in each direction. According to historical imagery, this was narrowed sometime 2012 or 2013.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Rheinbrücke Leverkusen*

The federal court in Leipzig has dismissed appeals against the replacement of the A1 Rhine Bridge at Leverkusen.

The bridge is in extremely poor condition and has been closed to all truck traffic since 2014. It urgently needs replacement.

There were appeals by an environmental organization and a land owner. 

http://www.bverwg.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pressemitteilung.php?jahr=2017&nr=68


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## A448

These ,,environmental protectors" are starting to get on my nerves. I'm all for taking care of our lovely planet but all that traffic having to find new routes and do giant detours isn't exactly beneficial. The Cologne- Leverkusen area in general needs more capacity, same with the Ruhrgebiet. The Cologne Ring updates, new Leverkusen A1 Bridge, Extension of A44 across the southern Ruhr Area, covering of the A40 aswell as the A52 connection 
in Essen Strassen.NRW got some serious work to do. Lets hope that with the new Land- and Bundestag things will pick up some speed again, infrastructure wise. Because else NRW will keep falling behind.


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## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> ^^When was that road built?


Construction works began in 1954. Source.


----------



## Bender

ChrisZwolle said:


> The federal court in Leipzig has dismissed appeals against the replacement of the A1 Rhine Bridge at Leverkusen.
> 
> The bridge is in extremely poor condition and has been closed to all truck traffic since 2014. It urgently needs replacement.
> 
> There were appeals by an environmental organization and a land owner.
> 
> http://www.bverwg.de/presse/pressemitteilungen/pressemitteilung.php?jahr=2017&nr=68


Can they now appeal the appeal? Go to some super higher court? Find an endangered specie of bettle? Or a typo in page 754 of a 1247-page long technical document that would nullify the whole thing?
Or are we finally good to go?


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## ChrisZwolle

The _Bundesverwaltungsgericht_ is what they call a 'court of last resort'. Further appeal is not possible.


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## MichiH

^^ Bundesverfassungsgericht is the highest German court though... If they think that EU law might be affected, they could call the European Court of Justice...


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ There are several supreme courts, it depends on the type of case which one is relevant. The Bundesverwaltungsgericht is for most administrative disputes between government and citizens.

It is unlikely that there would be something unconstitutional in a planning procedure that would require to take it up to the _Bundesverfassungsgericht_ (Federal Constitutional Court).


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## Bender

OK thanks, sounds like that's it, unless they wanna burn more money for the sake of obstruction.

The bridge was closed Monday Tuesday in one direction. Wasn't complete mayhem but a nice reminder of the obvious lack of alternatives to this bridge.


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## Kpc21

MichiH said:


> ^^ Bundesverfassungsgericht is the highest German court though... If they think that EU law might be affected, they could call the European Court of Justice...


Verfassung is constitution in German. The Bundesverfassungsgericht in Karlsruhe is not the supreme court but the constitutional court. It is responsible for checking if the law introduced by the parliament is compliant with the constitution and it can cancel such a law if it isn't. Normal people or companies have nothing to do with the constitutional court.

Verwaltung means management, or administration. So the Verwaltungsgericht would be, I believe, the administrative court, so the one to which you can go if you don't agree with an administrative decision.


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## miumiuwonwon

Bundesgerichtshof - the Federal Court of Justice - is Germany’s highest court of civil and criminal jurisdiction and has its seat in Karlsruhe.


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## rudiwien

Bundesverwaltungsgericht (specifically this unit https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/9._Revisionssenat_des_Bundesverwaltungsgerichts) is the one deciding matters related to road construction, e.g. appeals against a "Planfeststellungsbeschluss" (see in German: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planf...fahren_gegen_einen_Planfeststellungsbeschluss)


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently the Dutch built this part of A3


A3 close to my hometown in Bavaria was also built by Dutch in 1960s...


----------



## MichiH

*A44/A46 AK Holz*



MichiH said:


> *A44:* west of AK Jackerath – AK Holz 10.2km (May 2012 to Summer 2018) [discontinuation: 2.2km] – project – map


AK Holz (October 2017):





The ramps of the AK were announced to be opened in fall 2018.


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## ChrisZwolle

I've noticed the geometric design of the ramps is not quite favorable at both Kreuz Holz and Kreuz Wanlo. At both interchanges, all A61 traffic will have to turn off. At AK Wanlo they built a 2-lane ramp with a radius of only 140 meters. 

In the Netherland we usually build them with a 220 - 250 meter radius to allow higher speed, better traffic flow and improved safety and sight lines. This is especially important with the high volume of traffic that is going to use it once A61 is demolished for the mining operations.


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## MichiH

*A94 Munich - Passau*



MichiH said:


> *A94:* AS Pastetten – AS Dorfen 17.4km (April 2012 to October 2019) – project – map
> *A94:* AS Dorfen – AS Heldenstein 14.9km (July 2013 to October 2019) – project – map


Aerial videos from October 2017 (west to east):


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## Wilhem275

Went to Zeppelin Museum in Friedrichshafen today (enjoyed it a lot), and there were some images of mid-30's Autobahn projects in Frankfurt airport area:


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## kato2k8

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are two elevated highways through the city of Ludwigshafen, Hochstraße Nord and Hochstraße Süd.
> 
> Both elevated highways are in very poor condition, like most bridges from the 1960s/1970s in Germany.
> 
> In 2010, gates were installed on the Hochstraße Nord to block trucks from entering the elevated highway. Next week, truck blocks will also be installed on the Hochstraße Süd.


Hochstraße Nord is slated to be demolished in 2019, being replaced with a 6- to 8-lane road at surface level.

The barrier on Hochstraße Süd is installed while the highway is being renovated. This is necessary so that it can afterwards (beginning 2018) take the full load of Hochstraße Nord while it's being demolished. In total three barriers like the one in the picture will be installed.

The city decided to place the barriers since signage to the same effect installed two weeks ago was completely ignored. Two on-ramps - at Heinigstraße and Lorientallee - will be completely closed instead of receiving barriers since the ramps do not support a similar installation either due to their incline or for static reasons. Like on Hochstraße Nord for the first two weeks or so there will be trucks that will try to ignore the barriers too. The barriers as designed are pretty effective though, as in stopping even 40-ton trucks in place.

The barriers affect about 2,800 trucks (and busses) per day - out of 59,000 vehicles using Hochstraße Süd in total; the closure of that 470m section on Hochstraße Nord previously rerouted about 500 trucks from Hochstraße Nord to Hochstraße Süd. West-to-East truck traffic will now be completely rerouted via Hochstraße Nord, East-to-West truck traffic is routed onto Hochstraße Nord west of the section that's closed to trucks. Basically a "it's gonna fall in two years anyway, let's ride it into the ground" thing.

Aside from the renovation of Hochstraße Süd they'll also replace the nets under Hochstraße Nord - installed to catch falling concrete in 2010 - in early 2018. The new nets are supposed to last until the last parts of Hochstraße Nord are demolished in 2027 (the new road is built parallel to it, not in its place).


----------



## MichiH

*B247/B176 Leinefelde - Erfurt*

There's an interesting road project in Thuringia. B176/B247 from Erfurt to Leinefelde (81km) are planned to be upgraded in 12 sections to a fast connection between A71 and A38 in the center of Germany (OSM). The upgrade is planned to be funded by several PPP projects. The first two tender will be started in early 2018.









blue = in service (21km = 26%)
red = u/c (0km)
grey/red = preliminary works (7km = 9%)
grey with black = planning completed / building permit / plan approval order legal (22km = 27%)
grey = plan approval procedure (0km)
yellow = planning stage (0km)
white = early planning stage (31km = 38%)

The first PPP contract will be the northern-most section near Leinefelde (grey+ 2x blue on the map). The main construction is the Kallmerode bypass (2+1, plan approval order December 2009). Estimated construction period: 2019 to 2021.

The second PPP contract will be the grey + grey/red and blue section in the middle. B247 north of B249 (Höngda) will feature 2 lanes, B247 south of B249 will feature 4 lanes. Plan approval orders have been passed in 2011/12. Estimated construction period: 2020 to 2023.

See project page and this news article for more info.

The news article is about an info event happened in early September. A state secretary has presented the time schedule. The audience was skeptical because the event happened just prior to the Bundestag election and they doubted that they can trust what they are promised.

The State Secretary, Mr. Bomba answered:



> Sie haben hier einen Staatssekretär vor sich sitzen. Ich bin der Vertreter des Bundesverkehrsministers, *ich habe Geld, Personal und Macht. Alles, was ich Ihnen sage, wird umgesetzt*. Die Bundesregierung steht dahinter, der Bundesverkehrswegeplan und die Finanzierung sind Gesetz.
> 
> A State Secretary is sitting in front of you. I'm the representative of the Federal Minister of Transport, *I have money, employees and power. All I tell you will be done*. The Federal Government is behind it, the Bundesverkehrswegeplan (demand plan) and the funding are law.


----------



## MichiH

Some updates to new motorway/expressway sections u/c:



MichiH said:


> *B49:* Landfill site Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to Spring 2018) – project – map
> *B49:* AS Tiefenbach – AS Leun 2.1km (August 2016 to Late 2018) – project – map
> *B49:* AS Solms – AS Oberbiel-East 3.2km (May 2010 to Late 2017) [~300m/~1000m in service since 2014/15] – project – map


The westernmost section is still expected to be opened next spring. The next section is announced to be opened by late 2020 now (no info why) and the easternmost section is still missing a partial building permit. The plan approval order is challenged since 2008... That means, the completion date is unknown.



MichiH said:


> *B50:* AS Platten – Longkamp 19.9km (July 2009 to 2018) – project – map


Announced to be opened by the end of 2018. Source.



MichiH said:


> *B300:* AS Dasing (A8) – AS Aichach-West ~4km (October 2014 to Fall 2018) – project – map


It was partially opened on 11th October 2017 (Gallenbach - Aichach-West). Source.


There are also some additional expressways u/c which are not yet in my overview:

*B75:* AS Hamburg-Georgswerder – AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-South (A26) 4.8km (October 2016 to 2019) [rededication of A252/A253: 6.0km] – project – map

*B85:* AS Schafhof – AS Freihölz 2.5km (June 2017 to Late 2018) – ? – map

*B286:* AS Schweinfurt-Zentrum (A70) – AS Schwebheim 3.1km (July 2017 to 2020) [2nd c/w] – project – map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B50 Hochmoselbrücke*



MichiH said:


> Announced to be opened by the end of 2018. Source.


The 11th jacking phase was completed this week. It is the last extension of 2017, the next two phases (12 and 13) will be done in 2018, with the 13th phase completed in June 2018.

Webcam shots:


----------



## MichiH

*Funded new motorways/expressways*

List of new motorway/expressway sections which have building permit and are funded:

*A21:* Klein Barkau – north of Nettelsee 6.2km (Mid 2018 to ?) – project – map
*A21:* north of Nettelsee – north of AS Nettelsee ~2km (Mid 2018 to ?) – project – map

*A44:* AS Sontra-West – AS Sontra-East ~9km (2017 to <= 2022/23) – project – map

*A72:* AS Rötha – AK Leipzig (A38) 7.2km (2018 to ?) – project – map

*B10:* AS Godramstein – AS Landau-North (A65) 4.1km (Spring 2018 to 2023) [2nd c/w] – project – map

*B10:* west of AS Neu-Ulm-Finningen – east of AS Nersingen (A7) 5.5km (Spring 2018 to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map

*B14:* north of AS Backnang-West – AS Backnang-South ~4km (Summer 2018 to 2026) – ? – map
*B14:* AS Backnang-South – north of AS Waldrems ~2km (2021 to 2024) – ? – map
*B14:* north of AS Waldrems – south of AS Waldrems 0.9km (Spring 2018 to Early 2020) – ? – map

*B29:* west of Essingen – AS Essingen-Forst 1.5km (Fall 2018 to Late 2019) – ? – map
*B29:* AS Essingen-Forst – west of Aalen 2.0km (Mid 2019 to Late 2022) – ? – map

*B33:* AS Allensbach-Center – AS Allensbach-East 2.0km (2019 to 2027) – ? – map
*B33:* AS Allensbach-East – Hegne 2.0km (2020? to 2027) – ? – map
*B33:* Hegne – Waldsiedlung 1.4km (Spring 2018 to Late 2022) – ? – map

*B47:* AS Worms-Horchheimer Straße – AS Worms-South 1.2km (2018 to 2022) – project – map

*B58:* east of Rhine bridge – Wesel-Schepersfeld (B70) 3.7km (2018 to 2022) – ? – map

*B236:* Dortmund-Aplerbecker Mark – AS Dortmund/Schwerte (A1) 1.7km (Spring 2018 to Fall 2020) – project – map


Most of the projects have an estimated groundbreaking date in 2018. I have no updated info about the A44 section but 2017 seems to be outdated.

There are more projects which should get funding as soon as the building permits are legal, for instance, A281 Weser tunnel Bremen, A281 Airportstadt-Kattenturm or A94 Kirchham-Pocking are expected to be started in 2018 too.


----------



## Isek

MichiH said:


> AK Holz (October 2017):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ramps of the AK were announced to be opened in fall 2018.


A44 and AK Holz are very ambitious projects since they are built on a quite newly spreaded dump. The dump consists of mainly sand soil with hights up to 185 meters. Density of the soil is rather low due to the meathod of dumping by large spreaders hence there are settlemets expected in a scale of several decimeters. This is unique in the world and a lot of measurements were done and will be conducted in the future to monitor soil behavior and settlements.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B480 Bad Wünnenberg*

A webcam shot of the Aftetalbrücke construction of B480 at Bad Wünnenberg (Nordrhein-Westfalen).

* length: 785 m
* height: 72 m
* lanes: 2
* opening: 2020
* cost: € 41.1 million


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

ChrisZwolle said:


> Something that could be put to use in Germany. A bridge replacement in 2 days!


^^
Nice little baby bridge. 

In Germany such bridge replacements are several times more impressive. :master:

A10 (5 months ago)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A643 Schiersteiner Brücke*

Traffic will be switched over to the new span of the Schierstein Bridge across the Rhine this weekend. The bridge replacement is part of a partial widening of A643 (Hessen side only). 

The project is considerably behind schedule, it was originally planned to switch traffic over to the new bridge in mid-2016. Construction began in September 2013. A completion was originally planned for 2019, but is now pushed into 2020 or 2021. 



















Traffic will continue to be bottlenecked on the Rheinland-Pfalz side, because the 950 meter long approach bridge on the side of Mainz will not be replaced during this project. There used to be plans for shoulder lanes on the RLP side (the Greens didn't want an expansion to six lanes), but the approach bridge has no shoulders.


----------



## Rohne

Fortunately the federal government has forced Rheinland-Pfalz to start planning a full six-lane widening from Rhine bridge to Dreieck Mainz (A60). There are still some years to come, but this Autobahn will be widened and the respective plan approval process is currently being prepared (or already started?).


----------



## MichiH

Rohne said:


> plan approval process is currently being prepared (or already started?).


The plan approval procedure has not yet been started. The estimated construction period is 5 to 6 years and the costs are about 160 million €. Section length is 4.1km.

http://mainzerring.de/de/die-streck...ersteiner-bruecke/der-bedarfsgerechte-ausbau/


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A6 Fechingen Bridge*

The replacement of the Fechingen Bridge of A6 near Saarbrücken is going to cost significantly more money than has been anticipated.

The bridge had to be closed to all traffic in 2016 after static problems were reported. They milled the asphalt off the bridge deck to reduce the load. 

Last year, a replacement cost of € 60 - 80 million was anticipated. This has now doubled, it stands at € 126 million and a construction time of '10 years plus'.

http://www.sr.de/sr/home/nachrichte...en_fechinger_talbruecke_126_millionen100.html

https://www.welt.de/regionales/rhei...lbruecke-kostet-ueber-120-Millionen-Euro.html


----------



## Gedeon

126 million euros? What will it be made of, titanium?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A33 Halle - Bielefeld*



MichiH said:


> *A33:* AS Halle-Künsebeck – AS Bielefeld-Center 7.9km (September 2009 to Late 2017) – project – map


Delayed to Spring 2018: A33: Freigabe in 2017 nicht mehr möglich

7.5 years of construction through flat terrain with no tunnels or sizable bridges. :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A45 bridge replacement*

The Talbrücke Rälsbach of A45 south of Siegen is being replaced. They demolished the northern half with explosives today.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A10/A24 Neuruppin - Berlin*

*BAM wins PPP road project (Availability Model A10 / A24 Neuruppin to Pankow) in Germany*

The consortium consisting of BAM-PGGM and HABAU, has been appointed preferred bidder for the project Availability Model A10 / A24 AS Neuruppin to AD Pankow in Germany by DEGES GmbH. The project is located near the German capital Berlin. Financial close is expected to be reached in February 2018.

The design, build, finance, maintain and operate contract comprises the widening of the A10 to six lanes for a length of 29.6 km of motorway and the complete reconstruction of the A24 with four lanes plus an extended hard shoulder for a length of 29.2 km. In addition to the motorway the construction scope of works also includes several bridges (27 replacement constructions, 10 new constructions, 2 demolitions), noise protection walls, traffic sign bridges, traffic management installation, interchanges, rest areas and secondary/agricultural roads.

The construction activities will be carried out by BAM’s German civil engineering company Wayss & Freytag Ingenieurbau in cooperation with HABAU.

The O&M services scope (including winter maintenance) covers the entire contract section with a total length of approximately 64.2 km of motorway, including 51 bridges (37 new constructions and 14 existing). The O&M works will be carried out by BAM PPP and HABAU.

The construction period is approximately five years, the overall project period is 30 years.​
Full press release: https://www.bam.com/en/press/press-...oject-availability-model-a10-a24-neuruppin-to

It is planned that the project is completed by late 2022. The concession could start on 1 March 2018. The value is 'over € 1 billion'.

As mentioned, it is an availability payment PPP model, which is different from many other PPPs in Germany, which are revenue/risk PPP models.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B472 Hohenpeißenberg*

A 5.2 kilometer bypass of B472 around Hohenpeißenberg in foothills of the Alps opened to traffic today. It connects to the bypass of Schongau / Peiting (1997) and the bypass of Peißenberg (2008). Traffic can now bypass all 4 of these towns.


----------



## Wolfgang16

*B2 Oberau Bypass*

The breakthrough in the second tunnel bore was successful. The workers will get an extra bonus because it has been done before Christmas. The bypass will be finished in 2021 and will cost 228 million Euro.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ I had the impression that the Oberau bypass would have been a single carriageway road...


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## Wolfgang16

I think they try to avoid that after the fatal accidents in single bore tunnels. The Farchant tunnel is 2+2 too and the traffic count is 26000 vehicles per day with peak at 45000.

I wonder however why they didn't split the tunnel in the middle since there is a deep valley.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Oberau bypass will feature 2x2 lanes. A plan approval supplement procedure for the section in-between from Oberau to Farchant including Auberg tunnel was started last September. It will also feature 2x2 lanes. The actual AADT on B2 was 19,800 vehicles/day in 2015. A95 AADT at Farchant tunnel was 14,000 vehicles/day.

https://www.baysis.bayern.de/web/co...95&buchstabe=&bauamt=000&regbez=000&jahr=2015


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## g.spinoza

I will never get this idea nowadays that a motorway is seen as the devil by the people, but the exact same road named "expressway" is ok.
It is not a German-only thing.


----------



## Wolfgang16

MichiH said:


> The actual AADT on B2 was 19,800 vehicles/day in 2015


26000 is from this info sheet, south of Oberau, may be its B2 and B23 combined. They don't tell the year however.


----------



## MichiH

Wolfgang16 said:


> 26000 is from this info sheet, south of Oberau, may be its B2 and B23 combined. They don't tell the year however.


It's indicated that it's AADT 2005. And it's right. It was north of Oberau and B2 only.

https://www.baysis.bayern.de/web/co...2&buchstabe=&bauamt=0917&regbez=000&jahr=2005


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## Wolfgang16

probably its this one:
84329351	2005 B2	OE Farchant N	Einmdg B23 Oberau S 25865


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## MichiH

Wolfgang16 said:


> probably its this one:
> 84329351 2005 B2 OE Farchant N Einmdg B23 Oberau S 25865


Yep! Decreased to 19735 vehicles/day in 2015.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A14:* AS Grabow – AS Groß Warnow 11.5km (June 2015 to 20th December 2017) – ? – map


The section was opened today, see press release. Total costs are 114 million €. It's the last new Autobahn section in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania (home of Mrs. Merkel).

The northern A14 has a length of 93km. The southern A14 is 208km long. The gap in-between has a length of 112km, 6km are in service (Colbitz bypass), 8.5km are under construction, another 15km section should be started anytime "soon" (2018?).

The offical completion date of A14 is still 2022 (but very, very unlikely). The 155km segment between A24 and A2 (where are the new section and all remaining sections to be built) has total costs of 1.4 billion €, thereof 200 million € for EU ERDF.


----------



## Wolfgang16

*Tunnels around Garmisch*

According to a new article in Süddeutsche Zeitung about the tunnels it looks good:
Garmisch's tunnel dreams will be realized
- building permit for the Auerberg tunnel can come soon
- money for the Kramertunnel has been committed
- trees have been cut in November and next year works at the bridges over the Loisach will start
- works in the Kramertunnel will be resumed in 2019 and everything finished in 2024 at best case
- only the Wanktunnel is still delayed

All this is a merit of former Minister Alexander Dobrindt, which looks remarkable since the Süddeutsche Zeitung is not known to report in favour of CSU Ministers. :lol:

Btw: there even further projects on B2 south of Munich, most advanced is the tunnel in Starnberg


----------



## MichiH

^^









source: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/verkehrspolitik-garmischs-tunneltraeume-werden-wahr-1.3797970


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## g.spinoza

Auerbergtunnel seems a bit unnecessary... if I remember correctely there is plenty of space on the other side of the Loisach to build a new carriageway...


----------



## Wolfgang16

^^ yes, there is plenty of space at the other side, but there is the river, the railway line and probably an additional local road, since its the only road in the valley. So you would probably need 2 big bridges and have to deal with the risk of floodings. This is an ecological sensitive area. The mighty Bund Naturschutz in Bayern (BN) however did not oppose to the Auerberg tunnel only the ÖDP did. So probably this is the faster and easier way. Money is not so much an issue since there is plenty at the moment...


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-East – Hasselbach 4.3km (September 2010 to Spring 2018) – project – map
> *A44:* Hasselbach – AS Waldkappel 6.9km (March 2011 to Spring 2018) – project – map
> 
> 
> 
> Confirmed to be opened any time next spring. The 3-months tunnel equipment check will be started soon. source.
Click to expand...

28th February 2018. source.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B90n*

An almost 14 kilometer new section of B90 opened to traffic today in Thüringen, from the new Stadtilm interchange of A71 to Nahwinden. It is part of the B90n upgrade between A71 and Rudolstadt. 

The Landkreis Saalfeld-Rudolstadt has a population of 109,000 but had no high-standard connection to the west until now. B90n is a single carriageway road with passing lanes on grades.

Press release: https://www.thueringen.de/th9/tmil/presse/pm/102371/index.aspx

MDR report: http://www.mdr.de/thueringen/ost-th...e-bundesstrasse-nahwinden-in-betrieb-100.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A14*

The completion of A14 from Magdeburg to Schwerin has been pushed back considerably:

2016:
_Die A14-Nordverlängerung von Magdeburg nach Schwerin soll trotz des Streits im Jahr 2020 komplett fertig sein_

http://www.radiosaw.de/a14-nordverlaengerung-wird-weitergebaut


2017:
Die Fertigstellung der Autobahn 14 bis nach Magdeburg verzögert sich voraussichtlich um mehrere Jahre. Bislang hieß es, die Autos sollen bereits 2022 zwischen Wismar und Magdeburg durchgängig rollen. Der Termin sei nicht zu halten und verschiebe sich auf 2030, sagte der Staatssekretär im Bundesverkehrsministerium, Enak Ferlemann (CDU), dem NDR Nordmagazin.

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/meck...agdeburg-erst-2030-komplett,autobahn2128.html

So in one year the project was delayed by 10 years. :lol:


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> So in one year the project was delayed by 10 years. :lol:


German politicians often announce unrealistic timelines for road construction projects but A14 is a very bad case. Especially politicians from Saxony-Anhalt repeatingly announced impossible schedules. For instance, the entire A14 was announced to be completed by 2015 in 2007. Estimated costs were 770 million € *. The estimate was moved to 2020, later to 2022. Now, Mr. Ferlemann from the Federal Ministry of Transport is the first who announced a more realistic estimate: 2030.

It's the first time I read an estimated completion date for A14 which could be more than just wishful thinking! I closly follow German Autobahn projects since early 2008 - almost 10 years now...

*The current announcements report 1.4 billion € and 2030...


----------



## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think these are mainly Swiss drivers who want to 'break free' of the speed limits. This section is close to Switzerland and has a relatively low volume of traffic.


Let's rather say "Swiss resident" drivers. Quite a number of "hot-tempered" foreigners/secondos among the racers, and let's not forget German gastarbeiters either, even if a "lead foot" doesn't imply participating in races. 

Very regrettable development, although the stretch concerned is not long, about 15 km. Once again an example of sanctioning the general public for the misbehaviour of a selected few.


----------



## Wilhem275

Would the German law allow for a legal limit higher than the "suggested speed"? Or it clashes with the concept itself?

I think a 150-160 limit would kill off the racing habit but still affect very few people.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> A section of A81 in Southern Germany will get a 130 km/h speed limit due to illegal racing.


What??? They aim to stop something _illegal _by setting up some traffic signs?


----------



## rudiwien

MattiG said:


> What??? They aim to stop something _illegal _by setting up some traffic signs?



Well, I think the strategy is quite clear - if they do a race, you need to prove that they did something not according to the rules, i.e. endangering or obstructing other drivers, etc. For this to happen, you need likely a rather extensive video surveillance, or witnesses in other vehicles, etc..
This is obviously more difficult to prove than setting up radar boxes or checks with radar guns, where it is enough to find them violating the speed limit at a certain point.

Also, I guess consequences are much more clear - if you are racing at 200km/h in a 130 zone, you'll lose your license for a specific time.
If you go 200 km/h in a race on an otherwise unrestricted road, you might not even get a fine for the speed itself (if the road conditions justify that speed).


But yes, it is a change affecting everyone, because of a few stupid road users..


----------



## kato2k8

Wilhem275 said:


> Would the German law allow for a legal limit higher than the "suggested speed"? Or it clashes with the concept itself?


Legally the "suggested speed" makes the driver partially liable in cases of accidents where he exceeded it. Typically courts set this at 20-30% of damages if other than speed not at fault for the accident. Setting the legal speed limit to a higher value would also mean that this coliability would no longer be valid in these zones up to the speed limit.



Wilhem275 said:


> I think a 150-160 limit would kill off the racing habit but still affect very few people.


Statistically supposedly 30% of all vehicles exceed 150 km/h in unlimited zones.


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## MichiH

The (official) motivation for the speed limit is exactly what rudiwien wrote. It's just simpler to evidence and fine one.



> Mit dem angeordneten Tempolimit können Verkehrsverstöße jetzt im Rahmen der polizeilichen Geschwindigkeitsüberwachung beweissicher festgestellt, in der Folge sanktioniert und damit die Verkehrsgefährdungen durch nicht genehmigte Kraftfahrzeugrennen wirksam unterbunden werden.


I agree with kato2k8 about the legal issue with speed limits higher than 130km/h but on A2 near Hannover the dynamic speed limit is sometimes 140.


----------



## gigilamoroso

MichiH said:


> ^^ I found an article from December 2017. It contains a graphic showing number of fatalities per 1,000km Autobahn with and without speed limit:
> 
> year / with / without
> 2011 14.3 19.8 +38%
> 2012 12.4 16.9 +36%
> 2013 13.2 18.9 +43%
> 2014 13.3 15.7 +18%
> 2015 14.9 17.2 +15%
> 2016 12.6 17.1 +36%
> 
> Another graphics compares the number of fatalities per 1 billion kilometers traveled on Autobahns in different European countries:
> 
> DK: 0.8
> UK: 1.0
> S: 1.2
> ...
> N: 1.9
> *D: 1.9*
> E: 2.6
> ...
> H: 4.4
> PL: 4.8
> LT: 5.3
> 
> ------------------
> 
> http://www.bast.de/DE/Presse/2017/presse-17-2017.html
> 
> Fatalities on German roads 1992-2017 (blue=kilometers traveled; orange=accidents with persons injured; red=fatalities):


thanks, much apreciated!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Tribsees*

NDR reports that an 800 meter long section of A20 will have to be demolished and replaced by a bridge structure. Construction will last for approximately 4 years. They're now calling for a 2021 opening of A20.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Stau*

The ADAC published its annual 'Staubilanz' for 2017. It showed an annual traffic jam length growth of 4%. The duration of congestion grew by 9%. This is a considerable slowdown from the earlier dramatic growth of traffic congestion in Germany.

The annual traffic jam length grew by 75% from 2013 to 2017, from 830,000 kilometers of traffic jam to 1,448,000 kilometers of traffic jam. 

Growth by year;

* 2017 +4%
* 2016 +20%
* 2015 +20%
* 2014 +16%

In 2013 congestion grew by 40% but that was partially attributed to new measuring methods, so data from 2012 and before are not comparable.

https://www.adac.de/der-adac/verein/aktuelles/staubilanz-2017/


----------



## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> NDR reports that an 800 meter long section of A20 will have to be demolished and replaced by a bridge structure. Construction will last for approximately 4 years. They're now calling for a 2021 opening of A20.


4 years? That must be a hell of a bridge...

When bridge carrying I-35 in Minneapolis collapsed in August 2007 they managed to open new bridge in September 2008, just over a year later! And they had to build substantial structure on steep banks in the middle of the city. 

It seems that there is zero urgency to fix this stretch of the autobahn.


----------



## MattiG

geogregor said:


> It seems that there is zero urgency to fix this stretch of the autobahn.


Of course, there is. By following the German standard procedures, it would take 8 years.


----------



## kato2k8

The eastern section of the A20 is the Autobahn with the lowest AADT in Germany. We're talking about 12,000 vehicles per day, and east of the affected section that drops even further down. In other places in Germany that'd be well-served with a single-lane rural street.

For comparison, the I-35 between Minneapolis and St.Paul has about ... 9 times that traffic volume.


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## MichiH

^^ It will take 2-3 year to get a stable ground. Building the bridge will "only" take about 1 year.


----------



## da_scotty

> For comparison, the I-35 between Minneapolis and St.Paul has about ... 9 times that traffic volume.


Yeah let's compare a inner city motorway in a 750.000 twin city with a motorway in the countryside. Great comparrison and totally relevant.

Also, 100.000 AADT on a motorway is not that much.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I don't think traffic volumes are really relevant here (which are around 18,000 vehicles per day). There is an Autobahn connection that has been severed. I think it should be restored as soon as possible.

First they have to demolish the embankment. Then they have to build two parallel spans. Which can be done simultaneously as there is no traffic on it. The soil conditions are less of a problem because it is a bridge structure instead of an embankment that needs to settle. It shouldn't take 4 years of construction, but it may take more time if they have to go through formal construction procedures. 

A bridge this size can be constructed in less than one year if prefabricated beams are used.


----------



## MichiH

^^ https://www.regierung-mv.de/Aktuell/?id=133500&processor=processor.sa.pressemitteilung



> Bereits vor Fertigstellung des Baugrundgutachtens gehen Straßenbauverwaltung und Energieministerium aufgrund der bereits gewonnenen Voraberkenntnisse nicht mehr davon aus, dass der ebenfalls auf der Moorlinse liegende Teil der A 20 hinter der abgesackten Unglücksstelle noch ausreichend tragfähig ist, um während der mehrjährigen Bauzeit den mit einer Behelfsbrücke verbundenen Verkehr tragen zu können.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Infolge der Ergebnisse der statischen Berechnungen im Rahmen der aktuellen Baugrunduntersuchungen ist auch klar, dass neben dem aktuell sichtbaren Schadensbereich auch der Damm, der sich westlich daran anschließt, instand zu setzen ist.


Soil condition is also not stable next to the bridge where A20 is on an embankment.


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> ^^ It will take 2-3 year to get a stable ground. Building the bridge will "only" take about 1 year.


Perhaps it is time to take steps to enter the 20th century in Germany. 

The ground stabilization using modern technologies should not take more than a few months. 

The motorway section of the road 51 in Finland got extended by 10 kilometers a few years ago. The project included crossing an area similar to the problem spot at the A20. The stabilization was done with drive piles. A concrete deck was built of top of the piles. The works begun in March 2010, and the road was opened to the traffic after about 2.5 years, in October 2012.




























Using drive piles, the stabilization is complete as soon as the last pile has been driven into the ground. Another technique is the pillar stabilization, where cement or other material is mixed with the soil. Making the pillars is quite fast. The strenghtening lasts 2-3 months.


----------



## AnelZ

da_scotty said:


> Also, 100.000 AADT on a motorway is not that much.


But it is a lot again, saying it is "not that much" sounds like half of all motorways have above 100k AADT:

http://www.bast.de/DE/Statistik/Verkehrsdaten/2015/verkehrsmengenkarte.jpg?__blob=poster&v=1


----------



## rudiwien

ChrisZwolle said:


> I don't think traffic volumes are really relevant here (which are around 18,000 vehicles per day). There is an Autobahn connection that has been severed. I think it should be restored as soon as possible.
> ....



I do think it does matter - if traffic volume is low, there is obviously less economic and other interest and pressure to immediately restore the motorway.
18k vehicles isn't that much, that can be diverted to a 1+1 road for some time - with 100k, that is simply impossible. So if they manage to indeed restore the former diversion road, I don't see that much of an issue. That is especially true in the countryside, where the diverted traffic won't disturb that many residents as it would with a disrupted inner city connection.


Rather annoying are delays in upgrades where the traffic volumes really demand it, and I guess here we all agree that Germany has fallen really behind.
But taking a bit longer here is especially justified if they can also investigate the issues and test a good solution.
Comparing this time span with the pure construction time of another motorway where the technical solution has been clarified in detail before is imho also not appropriate.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Traffic volumes on A20 are also quite seasonal. You can see this on A19 as well, most of the time there is no major problem at the 1 lane construction zone at the Petersdorfer Brücke, but during summer weekends it can easily result in delays of over 1 hour. 

If you look at the more detailed traffic volume data from BAST, you can see daily volumes in excess of 30,000 during the summer and hourly volumes of up to 1,500 vehicles per direction.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ it's kind of cool
you basically get a dragstrip for free


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Meet the new federal minister of transportation, Andreas Scheuer (1974). Like his recent predecessors, he is also from CSU.


Vereidigung BM Scheuer by BM für Verkehr und digitale Infrastruktur, on Flickr


----------



## MichiH

^^ Bavaria first


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *A44:* AS Heiligenhaus – AS Heiligenhaus-Hetterscheidt 4.9km (April 2010 to March 2018) – project – map
> 
> 
> 
> Estimated opening date: Late March 2018. However, some road markings are still missing and it can only be done when temperature is higher than 10°C. Source.
Click to expand...

Announced to be opened in April now. There's a kind of 'open day' next Sunday. You can ride a bike on the new section.


----------



## TM_Germany

Here ges my hope for an actually qualified, competent person to become Verkehrsminister and fix the joke that we call German infrastructure...


----------



## MichiH

^^ http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pressemitteilungen/2018/016-scheuer-bmvi.html



> Moderne, saubere, barrierefreie und bezahlbare Mobilität und eine flächendeckende digitale Infrastruktur von Weltklasse


He wants a world-class digital infrastructure. I think that our road infrastructure is even closer to world-class right now...


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> He wants a world-class digital infrastructure. I think that our road infrastructure is even closer to world-class right now...


A politician. Lips moving. You know what it means.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A31 opened to traffic mostly during the 1980s and 1990s, though the final link wasn't completed until 2004. The Netherlands actually paid a part of the cost for this missing link as it would improve access to the eastern part of the country. 










With most of A31 now being 20-30 years old, it is currently being overhauled. Most sections in North-Rhine Westphalia have been completed, though there is still work ongoing. The Lower Saxony part is more troublesome, as they narrow A31 to one lane in each direction for much of the year. The average traffic volume allows that, but A31 sees a significantly increased traffic volume around holidays and vacations, when people from the Ruhr area drive up to the coast. The last few years showed that at 2+0 construction zones, delays can be over 1.5 hours. 

And there is lots of construction this season, so far I found current and announced construction zones: 7 in total, covering 51 kilometers of A31 (more than a fifth of the entire length). And those in Lower Saxony are mostly 2+0 zones, which will cause significant delays during peak traffic days. 

In addition, they will replace the signage on a 50+ kilometer stretch between Papenburg and Twist, each project requires a short-term single lane traffic configuration. So A31 won't be a nice drive this year.


----------



## chuckw2010

*German speed limits...*

When did Germany remove speed limits from their autobahns? Why did they do this?


----------



## Attus

chuckw2010 said:


> When did Germany remove speed limits from their autobahns?


Never.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^ Never...


----------



## chuckw2010

Attus said:


> Never.


Sorry I meant to say from some stretches of the road..


----------



## MichiH

^^ There has never been any general speed limit on German Autobahns.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not even during the oil crisis?


----------



## MichiH

^^ True, there was a temporary speed limit in 1970s.



> However, after the crisis eased in 1974, the upper house of the German parliament, which was controlled by conservative parties, successfully resisted the imposition of a permanent mandatory limit supported by Chancellor Brandt.


I like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#After_the_World_Wars



> In December 1952 the West German legislature voted to abolish all national speed limits, seeing them as Nazi relics, reverting to State-level decisions.


----------



## atpanos

MichiH said:


> ^^ There has never been any general speed limit on German Autobahns.


Not 100% true.
According to https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulässige_Höchstgeschwindigkeit_im_Straßenverkehr_(Deutschland)
in 1939 there was a speed limit of 100 km/h on all 'Reichsautobahn'.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't count Nazi shit!


----------



## cinxxx

Not counting it doesn't mean it didn't happen


----------



## italystf

Why having speed limit should be considered Nazi-related? Also the USA had them in 1930s and 1940s.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Because it was introduced that time.

It's not my opinion but wikipedia claims that it was dropped in the 1950s for that reason.


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> ^^ Because it was introduced that time.
> 
> It's not my opinion but wikipedia claims that it was dropped in the 1950s for that reason.


It's not a rational reason. If something happened during Germany's darkest era, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was bad. Also first autobahns (OK, you could argue about AVUS and A555, opened in pre-nazi era and that can or can't be considered autobahn depending on the definition adopted) were opened in this period. Would it make autobahns a bad thing?
If they had chosen to remove speed limit because they found that they were useless, that would be a rational (not political) reason.


----------



## MichiH

italystf said:


> It's not a rational reason.


I absolutely agree but people sometimes tend being emotional...



italystf said:


> If they had chosen to remove speed limit because they found that they were useless, that would be a rational (not political) reason.


I found a German article from 1956 when the law was changed again (speed limit in urban areas was introduced again). The reason for the 1953 change is quoted as follows:


> Eine Festsetzung zahlenmäßiger Höchstgeschwindigkeitsgrenzen ist nur dann sinnvoll, wenn hierdurch Unfälle vermieden werden können. Die Fahrgeschwindigkeit allein ist für die Vermeidung von Unfällen nicht ausschlaggebend. Unter Umständen kann durch ein schnelleres Fahren auch ein Unfall vermieden werden ... Die Erhaltung eines flüssigen Verkehrs ist für die Sicherheit genauso ausschlaggebend wie die Geschwindigkeit als solche ... Der Führer eines Kraftfahrzeuges muß seine Geschwindigkeit immer den jeweiligen Verkehrsverhältnissen anpassen. Das ergibt sich aus den Grundregeln der Paragraphen 1 und 9* der Straßenverkehrsordnung.


Translation:
It only makes sense to have a numerical speed limit if accidents can be avoided. The driving speed alone is not decisive to avoid accidents. At any rate, driving faster can avoid accidents... Having a good traffic flow is as important as the speed... The drives of a vehicle always must adapt his speed to the traffic condition. That's based on paragraph 1 and 9 of the traffic regulation.

The article also reports that the speed limit was canceled in 1934 but reintroduced in 1939 for wartime economical reasons. American occupiers only changed the speed limit in after WWII but French occupiers canceled it. British and Russian occupiers keep the old law (each for their Bundesländer/states occupied). The German Bundestag introduced a general law for (Western) Germany in 1952/53.


----------



## MichiH

chuckw2010 said:


> When did Germany remove speed limits from their autobahns? Why did they do this?


In 1934 and again in 1953. The "advisory speed limit" was introduced in 1974.


----------



## Kpc21

Were general speed limits introduced in East Germany, at least in some periods?

Because it could make sense e.g. in the fuel crisis times.

In Poland we had such fuel crises that the sales of fuel to individuals had to be vastly limited and also care had to taken about that freight cars are used as economically as possible.


----------



## Koesj

Kpc21 said:


> Were general speed limits introduced in East Germany, at least in some periods?


100 km/h.


----------



## darko06

MichiH said:


> ...
> 
> I found a German article from 1956 when the law was changed again (speed limit in urban areas was introduced again). The reason for the 1953 change is quoted as follows:
> 
> "Eine Festsetzung zahlenmäßiger Höchstgeschwindigkeitsgrenzen ist nur dann sinnvoll, wenn hierdurch Unfälle vermieden werden können. *Die Fahrgeschwindigkeit allein ist für die Vermeidung von Unfällen nicht ausschlaggebend. Unter Umständen kann durch ein schnelleres Fahren auch ein Unfall vermieden werden* ... Die Erhaltung eines flüssigen Verkehrs ist für die Sicherheit genauso ausschlaggebend wie die Geschwindigkeit als solche ... Der Führer eines Kraftfahrzeuges muß seine Geschwindigkeit immer den jeweiligen Verkehrsverhältnissen anpassen. Das ergibt sich aus den Grundregeln der Paragraphen 1 und 9* der Straßenverkehrsordnung."
> 
> (Highlighted by darko06)
> 
> Translation:
> It only makes sense to have a numerical speed limit if accidents can be avoided. The driving speed alone is not decisive to avoid accidents. At any rate, driving faster can avoid accidents... Having a good traffic flow is as important as the speed... The drives of a vehicle always must adapt his speed to the traffic condition. That's based on paragraph 1 and 9 of the traffic regulation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting this article.


----------



## Autobahn-mann

Sorry! obsolete comment

"I think that they argue that a speed limit imposed by national central government was a "Nazi"-way... Instead of speed limits decided by *federal *governments"


----------



## Kanadzie

Kpc21 said:


> Were general speed limits introduced in East Germany, at least in some periods?
> 
> Because it could make sense e.g. in the fuel crisis times.
> 
> In Poland we had such fuel crises that the sales of fuel to individuals had to be vastly limited and also care had to taken about that freight cars are used as economically as possible.


I'm curious about this, since PRL was in COMECON and has pipelines to USSR, so why was there a fuel crisis issue?

In West-countries there was a huge problem, OPEC cut all supply to countries that had supported Israel in the Yom Kippur War, and so, large percentage of available fuel was gone. But PRL certainly didn't support Israel at this time (and frankly was shamefully antisemitic at the time) and SU was very aggressively friendly to the OPEC countries while at the same time being an exporter of oil... so why was the "shock" felt? I know there were other issues with, _everything else_ in the economy but wodka but one would think oil was OK 

Or is it more in the 1980's with hard currency crisis and SU stopped with "brotherly" fuel prices?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A3 Würzburg*

Hmmm, seeing A3 at Würzburg from this perspective makes you wonder why they needed a tunnel there... It's fairly far from the houses down the slope. And it's not that densely built.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hmmm, seeing A3 at Würzburg from this perspective makes you wonder why they needed a tunnel there... It's fairly far from the houses down the slope. And it's not that densely built.


There will be a recreational area on top of the tunnel tubes, and putting the road in a tunnel closes a gap between areas quite close to the city center, as well as reduces the noise.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A3 is some 4 kilometers from the city center of Würzburg. The nearest houses are 160 - 220 meters from the Autobahn, which is really not exceptional. I mean, you can see why they did that, but is the cost of a tunnel proportional for what it achieves? It's not like a section of Autobahn through a densely developed urban area, like A1 in Köln or A3 at Goldbach / Hösbach.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> A3 is some 4 kilometers from the city center of Würzburg. The nearest houses are 160 - 220 meters from the Autobahn, which is really not exceptional. I mean, you can see why they did that, but is the cost of a tunnel proportional for what it achieves? It's not like a section of Autobahn through a densely developed urban area, like A1 in Köln or A3 at Goldbach / Hösbach.


Perhaps the plans are based on future visions, not on the status quo?


----------



## flusispieler

On the project's info site it says that it's indeed supposed to "close the gap" between the two city quarters. The second carriageway will also be put underground.

http://www.a3-wuerzburg.de/index.php?id=53#sechs


----------



## Kpc21

Kanadzie said:


> I'm curious about this, since PRL was in COMECON and has pipelines to USSR, so why was there a fuel crisis issue?
> 
> In West-countries there was a huge problem, OPEC cut all supply to countries that had supported Israel in the Yom Kippur War, and so, large percentage of available fuel was gone. But PRL certainly didn't support Israel at this time (and frankly was shamefully antisemitic at the time) and SU was very aggressively friendly to the OPEC countries while at the same time being an exporter of oil... so why was the "shock" felt? I know there were other issues with, _everything else_ in the economy but wodka but one would think oil was OK
> 
> Or is it more in the 1980's with hard currency crisis and SU stopped with "brotherly" fuel prices?


From what I read, it was related to the Western fuel crisis. In what way exactly (as we were not covered by the embargo) - I don't know. 

I have found an interesting article on the availability of fuel in the PRL (being a part of a series of 4 articles about cars in the PRL in general), on a Polish website about the history, and I think I may translate it for you, but I won't be making an OT in the thread about Germany. I will probably post it in the roadside rest area thread.


----------



## MichiH

flusispieler said:


> On the project's info site it says that it's indeed supposed to "close the gap" between the two city quarters. The second carriageway will also be put underground.
> 
> http://www.a3-wuerzburg.de/index.php?id=53#sechs


Yep, and residents fighted to get a "real" tunnel through the hill but lost. I don't remember how many complaints were submitted. Federal Administrative Court minimum twice, Federal Constitutional Court, European Court of Justice,....


----------



## italystf

Kpc21 said:


> Were general speed limits introduced in East Germany, at least in some periods?
> 
> Because it could make sense e.g. in the fuel crisis times.
> 
> In Poland we had such fuel crises that the sales of fuel to individuals had to be vastly limited and also care had to taken about that freight cars are used as economically as possible.


In DDR max speed limit was 100. East German cars (Trabant and Wartburg) were limited to that speed. The Volkpolizei made a lot o money by fining foreign drivers for speeding, especially on Transitautobahn between BRD and West Germany.
Most East Germans motorway were built by the 3rd Reich in the 1930s and they haven't received any maintenance till the reunification, so they looked very dilapidated by the early 1990s.
After the Ostpolitik BRD agreed to fund the renovation of Transitautobahn across DDR, but most money were aparently used by DDR for different purposes.
A11 from Berlin to the Polish border was not upgraded soon, and remained in the original 1930s layout well into the 2000s.


----------



## MattiG

italystf said:


> In DDR max speed limit was 100. East German cars (Trabant and Wartburg) were limited to that speed.


The rumors tell that the max speed of Trabants was increased to 100 because woodpeckers fly 95.

The roads in the ex-DDR were in such a condition that only the most reckless drivers were brave enough to exceed 100. It was the summer 1991, and I was driving on A4 towards Jena and Eisenach. I had to leave the Autobahn, because it was so shaky that my pregnant wife got afraid of a miscarriage.


----------



## belerophon

Well, going 100 by Trabant increased use of fuel a lot. My dad went to a christian conference in netherlands in 1990, after the fall of the wall, but before the invention of western D-Mark. It was a long travel, going not faster than 90, because Ostmark was worth nothing^^


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Rhine Bridge Blues*

The bridge saga continues... Starting next week, the A46 Flehe Bridge across the Rhine at Düsseldorf will be narrowed from 6 to 4 lanes due to damage to the beams under the far side of the bridge deck. It sounds like similar damage as the A40 bridge has (cracks in beams that support to outer section of the bridge deck). 

This means that out of 6 motorway bridges across the Rhine between Duisburg and Köln, only 2 are available without restrictions;

* A42 Beeckerwerth Bridge: construction zone (2 lanes closed)
* A40 Neuenkamp Bridge: poor condition, 2 lanes closed indefinitely 
* A44 Airport Bridge: no restrictions
* A46 Flehe Bridge: 2 lanes closed until further notice
* A1 Leverkusen Bridge: closed to all truck traffic
* A4 Rodenkirchen Bridge: no restrictions

In addition, three more bridges in Köln have restrictions;

* B51 Mülheim Bridge: trucks over 30 tons banned, speed reduced to 30 km/h
* B55 Zoo Bridge: trucks over 30 tons banned, speed reduced to 30 km/h
* Deutz Bridge: closed to all trucks.

So out of 6 bridges in Köln, 4 are not available to everyday trucks up to 40-44 tons. 

This means that truck traffic is taking alternate routes, which in turn increases the load on the remaining bridges. The A46 Flehe Bridge has fallen victim to this.


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> * A42 Beeckerwerth Bridge: construction zone (2 lanes closed)
> * A40 Neuenkamp Bridge: poor condition, 2 lanes closed indefinitely
> * A44 Airport Bridge: no restrictions
> * A46 Flehe Bridge: 2 lanes closed until further notice
> * A1 Leverkusen Bridge: closed to all truck traffic
> * A4 Rodenkirchen Bridge: no restrictions


Are there any bridge built after 1990 ?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yes, the A42 Beeckerwerth Bridge was built in 1990 and the A44 Airport Bridge in 2002.


----------



## Wilhem275

ChrisZwolle said:


> This means that truck traffic is taking alternate routes, which in turn increases the load on the remaining bridges. The A46 Flehe Bridge has fallen victim to this.


A perfect domino effect.
...I strongly suggest Rijkswaterstaat to immediately launch a reinforcement plan for the A50 bridge at Nijmegen


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A44:* AS Heiligenhaus – AS Heiligenhaus-Hetterscheidt 4.9km (April 2010 to April 2018) – project – map


The opening ceremony will be on 13th April 2018. Source.


----------



## Ale92MilanoSpA_

Driving from Bonn to Koblenz (Germany) 24.12.2017 Timelapse x4


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A57 Dormagen*

The second half of the fire-damaged bridge of A57 near Dormagen was put into service this morning. All restrictions will be gone by April 9, after which the A57 will be available without restrictions for the first time in six years.

On 14 February 2012, a fire broke out under the bridge. It damaged the bridge beyond repair and caused a severe crash. A57 was closed for two months between Neuss and Köln, until they installed a temporary bridge. Because this section is planned to be expanded to six lanes, they had to go through the formal procedures. Replacement works did not start until 2015 and are now completed.

Bridge demolition in February 2012:

DSC_0023 by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A33 Bielefeld - Künsebeck*

The new A33 from Bielefeld to Künsebeck will open to traffic on 4 April. The new federal minister of transportation Andreas Scheuer will attend the opening ceremony.


A video of the new A33 with interesting factoids:


----------



## MichiH

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen*



MichiH said:


> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to Late 2018) [discontinuation: 1.4km] – project – map
> *A30:* AS Dehme – AS Bad Oeynhausen-East 1.9km (September 2008 to Late 2018) – project – map


To be opened anytime in 2019 _(at the earliest)_. Source.



MichiH said:


> *A72:* AS Borna-North – AS Rötha 9.5km (July 2013 to Summer 2019) – project – map


Late 2019. Source.


----------



## keokiracer

MichiH said:


> To be opened anytime in 2019 _(at the earliest)_. Source.


 Imagine my shock :|


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder what is going on on A12. The whole day has seen almost the entire A12 backed up with traffic going to Poland. These are obviously Poles returning to Poland for the Eastern holidays, but why is it so intensely congested? The entire afternoon and evening has seen very significant delays. Even now at 10 p.m. there is still a 1.5 hour delay on A12. Are there border checks? Single lane road works?


----------



## MichiH

^^ https://www.bast.de/BASt_2017/DE/Fa...mation/baustelleninformation_hidden_node.html









*Berliner Ring - Frankfurt(Oder)*







AS Friedersdorf (2) - AS Fürstenwalde-West (4) 6,9km  Im Bau bis 29.09.2018 Erneuerung der Fahrbahn mehr 







AS Frankfurt(Oder)-West (8) -AS Frankfurt(Oder)-Süd (9) 0,5km Im Bau bis 08.12.2018 Brückeninstandsetzung mehr 







AS Frankfurt(Oder)-Süd (9) - GÜ Frankfurt(Oder) 1,9km 03.04.2018 - 13.04.2018 Brückeninstandsetzung mehr 







AS Frankfurt(Oder)-Süd (9) - GÜ Frankfurt(Oder) 1,9km 13.04.2018 - 30.06.2018 Brückeninstandsetzung mehr


----------



## MichiH

*Upcoming Autobahn openings*



MichiH said:


> *A33:* AS Halle-Künsebeck – AS Bielefeld-Center 7.9km (September 2009 to 4th April 2018) – project – map


The opening ceremony will begin at 1:00PM.



MichiH said:


> *A44:* AS Heiligenhaus – AS Heiligenhaus-Hetterscheidt 4.9km (April 2010 to 13th April 2018) – project – map


The opening ceremony will begin at 11:30AM.



MichiH said:


> *A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-East – Hasselbach 4.3km (September 2010 to Late April 2018) – project – map
> *A44:* Hasselbach – AS Waldkappel 6.9km (March 2011 to Late April 2018) – project – map


To be opened on 13th April 2018. Source.
The opening ceremony will begin at 10:00AM.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B14:* south of AS Waldrems – north of AS Nellmersbach 1.0km (June 2016 to Spring 2018) – ? – map


The first B14 carriageway (on the same alignment as the previous road) will be opened on 9th April 2018. The construction of the northbound carriageway has not yet began but will be completed by July 2018 at the earliest (signs on-site still indicate May 2018). The delay is caused by extreme frost in late February and a lot of rain/snow last winter ("außergewöhnlichen Frostperiode Ende Februar und lang anhaltenden Niederschlägen in den Wintermonaten."). Source.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B49:* Landfill site Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to Spring 2018) – project – map


The last announcement was from January 2016. They started to build a bridge that time. The bridge is planned to be completed by late summer 2018 now and the new alignment is planned to be opened in late 2018.


----------



## NordikNerd

*Overtakning ban for trucks in Saxony*

A truck overtakes another truck driving at 99km/h on the highway at 100 km/h. It takes a while! For miles you see the "elephant race" and the "avalanche" of cars behind. Saxony now pushes for another rule!

Due to increasing problems in heavy goods traffic, the german state of Saxony is expanding its ban of overtaking for trucks on highways. Until the end of May, the ban concerns the A4, A14 and A72 motorways.











The Ministry justified the measures with an increased accident risk in the critical sections. "In order to increase road safety and efficiency, we will therefore set up more distance-related overtaking bans on trucks," said Minister Martin Dulig (SPD).


----------



## MichiH

*B33 Allensbach - Konstanz*



MichiH said:


> I thought that segment A+B will be opened together (the 3.6km section u/c) but it seems that segment A will be completed by early 2019 and segment B by late 2020.


I was not sure wheater segment A will really be opened after completion but the new project site indicates that it will be opened in early 2019.
The construction of the Waldsiedlung tunnel is still announced to be started in spring 2018 but I think it might be delayed...

*B33:* AS Allensbach-West – east of AS Allensbach-West 1.2km (November 2015 to Early 2019) – project – map
*B33:* east of AS Allensbach-West – AS Allensbach-Center 2.4km (November 2015 to Late 2020) – project – map
*B33:* AS Allensbach-Center – AS Allensbach-East 2.0km (2019 to 2027) – project – map
*B33:* AS Allensbach-East – Hegne 2.0km (2020? to 2027) – project – map
*B33:* Hegne – Waldsiedlung 1.4km (Spring 2018 to Late 2022) – project – map
*B33:* Waldsiedlung – AS Reichenau 0.9km (June 2014 to Mid 2019) – project – map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

NordikNerd said:


> A truck overtakes another truck driving at 99km/h on the highway at 100 km/h.


They would both be in violation since the speed limit for trucks is 80 km/h 

But yes, these elephant races are highly annoying. The travel time gain is pretty much zero, 3 km/h difference means that on a 3 hour trip, they've gained 9 kilometers, which they'll lose at the next rest stop, fuel stop, traffic jam, or traffic lights. 

Some countries have blanket truck passing bans on the entire motorway network.


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some countries have blanket truck passing bans on the entire motorway network.


Which is crazy. You can see it in Hungary. Some truck drives 60 km/h all the way, and twenty, thirty trucks in a row follow it, hoping, that he will leave the motorway soon. 
Overtaking which takes more than 45 seconds is forbidden in Germany. However, it's quite difficult to check and actually punish it.


----------



## Kanadzie

Isn't EU standard to have speed limiter at 90 km/h?

I think this is the whole problem. If driver could pass with 110 km/h issue would not exist...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've seen Canadian truckers complain about the 105 km/h speed limiters that are required in Ontario and Québec. Such a speed would be mind-boggling for European truck drivers, where 80 or 90 km/h is the norm. In some parts of the U.S. trucks are allowed to go 120 km/h and I believe you are even allowed to drive 130 km/h in Utah or some sorts.

Seeing a truck going 120 km/h on some empty Interstate Highway in North Dakota makes it understandable, but it's a different game in Europe with high traffic and truck volumes. There are too many truck crashes already.


----------



## Kpc21

ChrisZwolle said:


> But yes, these elephant races are highly annoying. The travel time gain is pretty much zero, 3 km/h difference means that on a 3 hour trip, they've gained 9 kilometers, which they'll lose at the next rest stop, fuel stop, traffic jam, or traffic lights.


The truck driver will tell you that those 9 kilometers may decide about that they will have to spend many hours at a rest stop 9 kilometers before the final destination, after which they could return home, because they won't manage to get there before the allowed driving time finishes.

And the fines for exceeding the allowed driving time are very high, especially compared with e.g. those for exceeding the speed limit by 10 or 20 km/h.


----------



## Suburbanist

Fines for exceeding driving times should be high to discourage drivers and fleet companies from scheduling trips that have little to no buffer. I Read about these complaints on truckers not being able to reach their destinations while they are just some 10km away, but that is poor planning.


----------



## Kpc21

But this means extra costs for the company and this way it becomes less competitive. This is how free market economy works. You must minimize the costs to win.


----------



## Wilhem275

But not at the expense of the rest of the world.

If this increases the production costs, then it's up to the customer to decide whether it's convenient or not.

Talking about free market, I can't stand how the competition between rail and road freight transport is completely distorted by the fact that one must obey to strict safety regulations and the other has always an excuse to override rules.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

On the other hand you can argue that there is also a market distortion the other way (especially in the Alps): high tolls for trucks and very large government funding for rail tunnels. 

Austria wants to create a "Dauerstau" on A93 by restricting the number of trucks entering Austria at Kiefersfelden at 250 per hour. There are 10,000 trucks per day (5,000 per direction), so that is a problem and creates a continuous traffic jam on the German side.


----------



## Wilhem275

True, but I see that as a political decision, mostly answering to people's wish for comfort/environmental issues. Probably non completely rational, but I see their point.

My main worry is about safety regulations. If the trucking industry had to obey to the same level of restrictions they have in railways, we'd see 90% less trucks on the roads...

And still they complain.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There is already a lack of locomotive driver in Germany. Part of the so-called skills shortage ("Fachkräftemangel") due to the economical boom. Locomotive driver is not an attractive job - also due to restrictions - and it's simple to find a better job. For that reason, I think it's much easier to hire East European truck driver....

btw: It's even hard to find a charwoman in Germany today...


----------



## Suburbanist

My point is this: whatever the hour driving limit is, independent drivers and fleet managers often push to the limit. And if maximum daily driving time were increased by 60min, I'd get they would not use it as a buffer for unexpected congestion but just to increase maximum distance scheduled for the driver. And the complaints about being 10km from the delivery point and having to ask a relief driver to come finish the trip, or stay parked due to stupid regulations, would be the same as they are today.

It is like people who always complain why couldn't they use their expiring drivers licenses a couple weeks until the new one is ready. No matter if they expired after 5, 7 or 25 years...


----------



## Kpc21

MichiH said:


> ^^ There is already a lack of locomotive driver in Germany. Part of the so-called skills shortage ("Fachkräftemangel") due to the economical boom. Locomotive driver is not an attractive job - also due to restrictions - and it's simple to find a better job. For that reason, I think it's much easier to hire East European truck driver....


In Poland we also have a shortage of bus drivers. The restrictions are similar, but for some reasons it seems that it's better to drive a truck rather than a bus. Maybe because you are not responsible for the life of quite a big number of people (I mean the passengers, there is still a risk of killing someone on the road). But again, it's yet different in case of the train drivers - who often cannot avoid killing e.g. someone who decided to commit a suicide; most of the experienced train drivers had at least one such case in their live. This is an inherent part of this job.



Suburbanist said:


> My point is this: whatever the hour driving limit is, independent drivers and fleet managers often push to the limit. And if maximum daily driving time were increased by 60min, I'd get they would not use it as a buffer for unexpected congestion but just to increase maximum distance scheduled for the driver. And the complaints about being 10km from the delivery point and having to ask a relief driver to come finish the trip, or stay parked due to stupid regulations, would be the same as they are today.


Yes, there doesn't seem to be a way to change that.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is a truck driver shortage in the Netherlands as well. Transportation companies will pay for your CE driver's license if you work for them for at least 1-2 years.


----------



## bartek76

Kpc21 said:


> Yes, there doesn't seem to be a way to change that.


There is, if the driver has to park lorry 10 km from destination then his employer should be legally obliged to transport him home or pay him triple, quadruple whatever, pay for sitting pointlessly in the middle of nowhere.
That enforced properly would 'cure' fleet managers from unrealistic planning.


----------



## Kpc21

Then they will force them to park it 11 km from the destination


----------



## MattiG

Kpc21 said:


> But this means extra costs for the company and this way it becomes less competitive. This is how free market economy works. You must minimize the costs to win.


Still, a healthy business is not based on crime.


----------



## MattiG

Kpc21 said:


> The truck driver will tell you that those 9 kilometers may decide about that they will have to spend many hours at a rest stop 9 kilometers before the final destination, after which they could return home, because they won't manage to get there before the allowed driving time finishes.
> 
> And the fines for exceeding the allowed driving time are very high, especially compared with e.g. those for exceeding the speed limit by 10 or 20 km/h.


For some unknown reason, that logic seems apply mainly to the Polish drivers. About 80% of those elephant morons carry Polish license plates.

The speed difference is not usually 3 km/h but 1 km/h and the win is worth nothing.

My suggestion is simple: The police should stop of those those elephant riders and ask why they are behaving like that. The interview and the procedure could take say two hours to delay the driver as much as possible. Loss of time is often a more severe penalty than loss of some money. I believe that even the dumbest driver could learn something.


----------



## Heico-M

^^ You mean a penalty loop like in biathlon? :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

ChrisZwolle said:


> I've seen Canadian truckers complain about the 105 km/h speed limiters that are required in Ontario and Québec. Such a speed would be mind-boggling for European truck drivers, where 80 or 90 km/h is the norm. In some parts of the U.S. trucks are allowed to go 120 km/h and I believe you are even allowed to drive 130 km/h in Utah or some sorts.
> 
> Seeing a truck going 120 km/h on some empty Interstate Highway in North Dakota makes it understandable, but it's a different game in Europe with high traffic and truck volumes. There are too many truck crashes already.


It's really bad to get stuck behind these... they do the same as Europe, 105.1 km/h passing 104.9 km/h, horrible. Yes, legal speed limit in Ontario and Quebec is 100 for everyone but nobody does or wants (rather, 120-130...)

Surely this isn't helping safety to create these unsafe blockages, especially in a European road with trucks at 90 and cars running 190 and having to brake :nuts:
The bad crashes always seem to be distracted drivers running into the stau. I am not sure the limiter helps, I suspect the mindlessness of setting the tempomat to MAX and taking a nap is worse than having no limiter at all...


----------



## geogregor

Kanadzie said:


> It's really bad to get stuck behind these... they do the same as Europe, 105.1 km/h passing 104.9 km/h, horrible. Yes, legal speed limit in Ontario and Quebec is 100 for everyone but nobody does or wants (rather, 120-130...)


I don't know, I see a lot of quicker overtaking trucks in North America. It seems that when the drivers put the foot down the trucks there are capable of brisker overtaking than in Europe.


----------



## Wilhem275

The problem is... being in the car in front of the quick truck.

As Chris said, no big deal in an open space where there's almost no traffic, plenty of space to stop.
But in Europe this is rarely true, trucks going faster would be an even bigger danger.


----------



## Kpc21

Kanadzie said:


> Surely this isn't helping safety to create these unsafe blockages, especially in a European road with trucks at 90 and cars running 190 and having to brake :nuts:


But except for Germany, it's illegal to drive so fast.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A33 Künsebeck - Bielefeld (9 km) opened to traffic today.

Look at the ministers of transportation. Bundesminister Scheuer looks very similar to minister Wüst from Nordrhein-Westfalen. :nuts: :lol:


Verkehrsfreigabe A33 mit BM Scheuer by BM für Verkehr und digitale Infrastruktur, on Flickr


Verkehrsfreigabe A33 mit BM Scheuer by BM für Verkehr und digitale Infrastruktur, on Flickr


----------



## Kanadzie

Kpc21 said:


> But except for Germany, it's illegal to drive so fast.


Germany is big part of Europe and... in Poland they drive just the same :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Netherlands uses "preventive maintenance". This means they don't wait until the potholes and big cracks appear, but resurface the motorway by overlaying the asphalt. In Germany you will often see they will rip out all the pavement down to the sand / foundation. This is a sign of deferred maintenance, where the sublayers of the pavement have collapsed. Complete reconstruction is the only solution then. 

Many motorways in the Netherlands still have the original 1960s-1970s asphalt underneat the top layers. Between 2010 and 2020, only 2 or 3 "German style Baustelle" are planned in the Dutch maintenance programme, with sections of A27 and A32 having issues with the foundation that was used in the 1990s (recycled furnace slag).

A big upside of only reconstructing the top layers is that this can be done with overnight works or a weekend closure at worst, which means daytime traffic is not impacted by maintenance works anywhere. 

Some German politicians, especially FDP, think 24/7 construction zones (3 shifts) are needed to achieve that. But in the Netherlands 24/7 work zones are uncommon for maintenance, most of it is night work (9/10 pm - 5/6 am), except for weekend closures.

Last year they resurfaced A28 through my city (Zwolle). It is a very busy motorway so any construction with lane closures or lane shifts would severely impact traffic. With a German -style "Baustelle", this may have required 2 or 3 years of severe traffic disruption. But because they used preventive maintenance with overnight works, the entire motorway was resurfaced without any notable impact on traffic. Full capacity was availalbe without restrictions during the day.


----------



## lumix153

ChrisZwolle said:


> The German Autobahn is really not better designed than average in Europe, I'd say there are other countries with better designed motorways than Germany. German motorways have some design features that were scrapped in the Netherlands during the 1960s, such as tight curves on ramps, lack of shoulders on ramps, short merging lanes, narrow shoulders, etc.


Exactly! And moreover, the total absence of any lightning on ramps and big junctions is also an extreme problem of German road infrastructure, while driving trought Belgium for example, where even main local roads are completely lit by night is a true pleasure, on the other side the Netherlands has the most logical and best road signage, and the very good motorway network as well.


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## Kpc21

Lighting  This is a lightning:


----------



## lumix153

Kpc21 said:


> Lighting  This is a lightning:


:lol::lol::lol: Sorry, it was a typo. I was thinking of High-mast Lighting on the motorways of course. :lol:


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Netherlands uses "preventive maintenance". This means they don't wait until the potholes and big cracks appear, but resurface the motorway by overlaying the asphalt. In Germany you will often see they will rip out all the pavement down to the sand / foundation. This is a sign of deferred maintenance, where the sublayers of the pavement have collapsed. Complete reconstruction is the only solution then.
> 
> Many motorways in the Netherlands still have the original 1960s-1970s asphalt underneat the top layers. Between 2010 and 2020, only 2 or 3 "German style Baustelle" are planned in the Dutch maintenance programme, with sections of A27 and A32 having issues with the foundation that was used in the 1990s (recycled furnace slag).
> 
> A big upside of only reconstructing the top layers is that this can be done with overnight works or a weekend closure at worst, which means daytime traffic is not impacted by maintenance works anywhere.
> 
> Some German politicians, especially FDP, think 24/7 construction zones (3 shifts) are needed to achieve that. But in the Netherlands 24/7 work zones are uncommon for maintenance, most of it is night work (9/10 pm - 5/6 am), except for weekend closures.
> 
> Last year they resurfaced A28 through my city (Zwolle). It is a very busy motorway so any construction with lane closures or lane shifts would severely impact traffic. With a German -style "Baustelle", this may have required 2 or 3 years of severe traffic disruption. But because they used preventive maintenance with overnight works, the entire motorway was resurfaced without any notable impact on traffic. Full capacity was availalbe without restrictions during the day.


Finland takes a similar approach. Resurfacing takes place often, because the winter-time studded tires cause grooving, every 2-3 years on the busiest roads. A "German Style Baustelle" is virtually a non-existent way of working for surface maintenance.

The procedure is quite fast: Usually there is a "remix train" working: First, there are burning units to raise the asphalt temperature to about 200°C. Then comes the Big Mouth to eat the worn-out layer to be mixed with 20% of new asphalt. Next one is the device the lay the new layer, and the road roller do the finalization. The road marking car might come next day. Such a setup can make several kilometers of new surface during one shift.

On rural motorways, one lane is usually closed for a kilometer or two during the works. No works for Friday and Sunday afternoons. In the busy urban areas, most of such works is done in the night between 2200 and 0600. Junctions may be closed ramp by ramp. The most congested road at the Helsinki region are usually paved in July, when everybody has their holidays.


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## ChrisZwolle

The NDR reports about the huge number of crashes at a construction site on A7 near Schwarmstedt (north of Hannover): https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/nied...nkte-Plan-verabschiedet,fallingbostel316.html

This construction zone was set up in early March. In less than 2 months there were 200 crashes, 3 fatalities, 2 critically injured and 26 light injuries. 

They are contemplating changing the work zone from 5+0 to 4+0 lanes. That means that northbound traffic will be reduced to 2 lanes (like the southbound traffic already is). 

This construction zone replaces concrete from the late 1980s.


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## ChrisZwolle

*B83*

A major road in the _Weserbergland_ will be closed for 7 years (!) to secure a rockwall along the road. B83 is a major road between Holzminden and Hameln, there is no Autobahn in this region. 

Ein weiterer Grund ist nach Angaben der Landesbehörde der »Spanische Flagge«-Schmetterling. Stahlnetze, Schutzzäune oder Felsanker, die für die Sicherheit der Felsen zwischen Polle und Bodenwerder sorgen würden, könnten das Gebiet beeinträchtigen. Behoben werden könne dieses Problem nur mit einer Verlegung der B 83, möglicherweise mit zwei Brücken über die Weser, oder mit einer Sondergenehmigung der EU-Kommission aus Brüssel – die mindestens sieben Jahre auf sich warten lassen könnte. Das Gesamtprojekt werde auf bis zu 35 Millionen Euro geschätzt.​
http://www.westfalen-blatt.de/OWL/K...Weserbruecken-B-83-fuer-sieben-Jahre-gesperrt

They need EU approval for a road project? I wonder what this means. 

It appears to be this section of B83: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9305579,9.4650637,1345m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## ChrisZwolle

*A44n*



Alqaszar said:


> The detour created by the planned open-pit coal mines [Yes, Germany is still digging coal!] south of Mönchengladbach via A 46 and A 44n won't help the situation.


Through traffic on A61 (some 64,000 vehicles per day in 2015) will have to turn off 3 times on that stretch south of Mönchengladbach.

They widened A46 and A44 for that purpose, but I think the interchanges are not well-designed to handle that much turning traffic. The radius of ramps is not really that great and especially the Jackerath interchange has a very long curve for through traffic. In a regular situation, this may not be as much of a problem, but in this case the traffic volume will be significantly higher than normal.

They should've made a more streamlined design. The new Holz interchange (A44/A46) is better designed than Jackerath and Wanlo.

This is the new Jackerath interchange with the arrows showing the Mönchengladbach to Koblenz traffic flow:


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## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> They should've made a more streamlined design. The new Holz interchange (A44/A46) is better designed than Jackerath and Wanlo.


Anyway, the NE to SE ramp is semi-directional one, not a loop. It does not matter much whether the total turn is 135 or 180 degrees.

I believe there is a trade-off between maximizing the traffic flow and public irritation. The Garzweiler open pit eating homes and centuries old villages has created quite a wide-spread irritation in the area, especially because the brown coal collected is low-quality and dirty. Perhaps the designers have drawn the new junction to be as compact as possible to avoid more irritation raising from losing excessive amounts of land to a more or less temporary structure.


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## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> They need EU approval for a road project? I wonder what this means.


NDR has more information: https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/nied...s-laedt-zu-Rundem-Tisch,bundesstrasse268.html

It turns out there is a protected butterfly at these rocks and installing fences and nets across the rocks would disrupt that. They have to two options; rebuild B83 on a new alignment with two bridges across the Weser, or get a permit from the EU to build those fences and nets to secure the rockwalls.


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## MichiH

Some recent news from NRW:

*B51 Meschenich bypass south of Cologne* (3.1km; 2+1; 22 Mio €; map): Plan approval order is legal now. No complaints. It was passed in February 2018. Funding is expected to be assigned Mid 2018. Construction works might begin in late 2018. Source. The plan approval procedure was started in April 2010. A plan supplement procedure was started in May 2016.

*B61 Ummeln bypass west of Bielefeld* (3.7km; 2+1; map): Federal Administrative Court cannot decided whether the plan approval order is legal. 14 complaints pending. The European Court of Justice must decide how to handle the Water Framwork Directive. Source. The plan approval procedure was started in August 2010. A plan supplement procedure was started in May 2014. The plan approval order was passed in September 2016.

*B474 Datteln bypass north of Dortmund* (4.1km; 2-laned; 24 Mio €; map): Plan approval order is legal now. All complaints finished. It was passed in March 2009. Plan supplement order was passed in May 2011. Funding is expected to be assigned Mid 2018. Construction works might begin in late 2018. Source. The plan approval procedure was started in August 2005. The plan approval order for the southern section up to A2/A45 interchange (3.3km; 2x2) was passed in May 1991. It was canceled in 1994. The new plan approval procedure was started in November 2016.


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## ChrisZwolle

The B61 issue may delay the project significantly. The ECJ verdicts always take ages to be issued, even a "fast" route may take 1.5 - 2 years. In the Netherlands we're also waiting for an ECJ verdict on nitrogen deposition for several important road projects.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A8 Pforzheim*

There is a closure on A8 at Pforzheim to demolish a bridge this weekend.

It causes tremendous traffic congestion, with 1.5 - 2 hour delays in both directions. 

The official detour is A6/A81 via Heilbronn. Around noon there was a 2+ hour delay on that route as well, though things have improved since.










There are also serious problems to get through Hamburg, especially northbound. Yesterday recorded 1 - 1.5 hour delays on both A1 and A7, from early morning to late evening. Today is slightly less intense, but still congested. Hamburg is very vulnerable as there are no good detours around the city other than A1 and A7. And there is construction on both motorways. And you can't avoid it by driving during off-peak hours. 

Bremen is also intensely congested due to roadworks on A1. There are long delays every single day on A1, and it doesn't matter if it's rush hour or not. A7 is also congested north of Hannover due to roadworks.

Northern Germany lacks good alternative routes for A1 and A7, eventually you have to cross the Weser at Bremen and the Elbe at Hamburg, and this is precisely where roadworks mess up traffic flow.


----------



## Ni3lS

MichiH said:


> I've only answered to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Free speech and right to demonstrate. I was not talking about complaints.


You made a fair point, I don't know to what extent people have the liberty in Germany to appeal such a project just because it's funded by tax money. 



Wilhem275 said:


> Come on people... Like if the delays of German infrastructures are now due to an excess of democracy :|
> 
> Appeals are possible in fast-building countries too, so _maybe_ the problem is elsewhere...


Bureaucracy.. I sure think that plays a big role here in Germany. So do labor laws.. Definitely not the only problems though, but the difference in efficiency regarding infrastructure projects in my home country and Germany is shocking.


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## MichiH

A14, A20, A21, A26, A39 and A281 are in planning or construction phase. They might solve some problems in Northern Germany. Pace is damn slow though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those new motorways will help with providing alternative routes, but the real problem is the large number of roadworks with lane reductions which cause extensive congestion and accidents. 

Germany would have had significantly less congestion if there weren't so many long-term construction zones. Just look at France, they too had a long weekend but virtually no congestion on intercity routes. The map stayed almost entirely green outside of Paris.

German congestion can be reduced with a different approach to maintenance and workzone configuration. I don't understand why German roadworks needs to rip out the pavement down to the foundation so often. Other countries don't do this nearly as much, except for concrete. This type of roadworks is difficult to do without causing traffic congestion. It can't be done overnight or in a weekend and they need the space so a "Dauerbaustelle" is the only solution.

Countries like France, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark or Italy manage to do most of their motorway maintenance in a way that doesn't cause so much congestion. You'd think Germany would be able to do the same?

In the Netherlands a 25 kilometer section of A1/A27 is being expanded to six/eight lanes. It takes only 1.5 years and traffic impact is pretty minimal. Why can't Germany do that?


----------



## Bender

Call me a conspiracist but I can't help thinking that some people are quite keen to see loooong road work, lots of paperwork, red tape, reports etc. 

All in the name of security and "gründliche Arbeit", of course.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> You'd think Germany would be able to do the same?


No!


----------



## Ryme Intrinseca

MattiG said:


> Anyway, the NE to SE ramp is semi-directional one, not a loop. It does not matter much whether the total turn is 135 or 180 degrees.


The new ramp also looks like it has more lanes (two rather than one) and a much larger radius and higher design speed than the corresponding movement in the old interchange: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.0347278,6.4663913,1207m/data=!3m1!1e3

My query with the new junction would rather be that it has weaving between the loops, which the old one didn't. Of course, weaving between loops is not an unusual thing in Germany, but it seems regressive for a replacement interchange to add weaving. They will have unusually good data for likely volumes on these movements, so I suppose they feel confident that there is no need for anything better than a three loop design.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Baustellen 2018*

ADAC reports there are currently 430 construction zones on the Autobahn system. That is one construction zone every 30 kilometers.

Most construction zones are in Nordrhein-Westfalen (28%). There are 35 construction zones on A1 alone.

https://www.adac.de/der-adac/verein/aktuelles/autobahn-baustellen/


----------



## [atomic]

MichiH said:


> *B49:* AS Solms – AS Oberbiel-East 3.2km (May 2010 to ?) [~300m/~1000m in service since 2014/15] – project – map
> 
> They have finally fixed the issue with a neighboring company about vibrations due to construction works (1, 2). Construction works will be continued from 2019. The estimated completion date is late 2021 "at the earliest".


I knew I've heard of Oberbiel before :lol: this has been going on since 08..


----------



## Luki_SL

Is there any plans to built the remaining park of A480 in near future ( Gießen bypass) ?


----------



## JB Colbert

Hi everyone.
Sorry for the question, maybe was already answered in the past.

Which plans, if any, are foreseen for Stuttgart area?
Which is the biggest german highway Blackhole...

It would be worth to have a bypass/connection between Wendlingen and Ludwigsburg, to unload the section upto the A81 interchange, for whom are interested to proceed toward North.

Furthermore, it would be even worth to have a south bypass between Eltingen and Wendlingen, through Sindelfingen and Filderstadt, to unload the urban area and separate the West-East passing-through traffic from the Stuttgart specific one.

Any plan for Stuttgart?


----------



## MichiH

Luki_SL said:


> Is there any plans to built the remaining park of A480 in near future ( Gießen bypass) ?


No! It was canceled by the current demand plan (BVWP 2030) which was issued in 2016. It was only further demand in the previous one issued in 2004.



JB Colbert said:


> Which plans, if any, are foreseen for Stuttgart area?


Baden-Württemberg road authorities are damn slow.



JB Colbert said:


> Which is the biggest german highway Blackhole...


Agreed!



JB Colbert said:


> It would be worth to have a bypass/connection between Wendlingen and Ludwigsburg, to unload the section upto the A81 interchange, for whom are interested to proceed toward North.


Only 2x2 B29 expressway from Ludwigsburg to Waiblingen. It would be very profitable but there's a huge opposition and it's only further demand. Planning will be started after 2030 if at all.



JB Colbert said:


> Furthermore, it would be even worth to have a south bypass between Eltingen and Wendlingen, through Sindelfingen and Filderstadt, to unload the urban area and separate the West-East passing-through traffic from the Stuttgart specific one.


Nothing.



JB Colbert said:


> Any plan for Stuttgart?


Greens prefer widening of existing Autobahns. They wanna spend billions of €.

See map: http://bvwp-projekte.de/map_street.html (don't expect anything happening in BaWü by 2030)


----------



## JB Colbert

Vielen Dank MichiH!

I really don't understand why Germany became so damn slow when a new Project is needed and/or while executing road works; is very pity...


----------



## MichiH

^^ I think "New project" means "new road"?

New Autobahns A45 and A84 were planned to bypass Stuttgart and there were many other planned Autobahns, see 1974 demand plan, but there was a huge opposition in the 1970s and 1980s. That's why the new Autobahn projects were STOPPED. It's not just slow planning progress but STOPPED planning!

Nowadays, the road authorities in BaWü do just have too less employees for planning of bypasses or widening projects. For instance, the 60km A6 widening east of A81 was done by just one engineer some years ago! More people work on it now. New Autobahns are currently not planned at all in BaWü.










Map of northern Germany: http://www.autobahn-online.de/gesamtnetz74n.gif


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## ChrisZwolle

A45 around Stuttgart would be a huge improvement to regional connectivity, especially the A6 to A8 route from west of Heilbronn to east of Stuttgart. That area around Stuttgart is densely populated. There is only one motorway section where the entire region depends on; A8 between AD Leonberg and AK Stuttgart.


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## MichiH

I drive to Stuttgart region minimum twice per month. I come from A81 north and my desination is usually east or south-east of Stuttgart. That means, I would always drive the damn missing A45... There are not many alternative routes and all are more or less congested during rush hours. If anything happens, a little accident or a site, you lose additional time. It's hard to plan arriving on time. I usually make my appointments early in the morning (7AM) or try to start after rush hour (10AM) and plan with 30 minutes buffer (for a 170..180km trip). Starting at 10AM means, I usually get stuck in traffic in the evening... 7AM is not possible anymore because I have different tasks now and meet different persons now.

However, I have luck because I don't need to use A8 nor A81 south of Stuttgart which are even more unpredictable. Again, the problem is, that there are no alternative routes! 2x4 or 2x5 widening is no solution IMHO.


----------



## kato2k8

ChrisZwolle said:


> A45 around Stuttgart would be a huge improvement to regional connectivity, especially the A6 to A8 route from west of Heilbronn to east of Stuttgart. That area around Stuttgart is densely populated.


Actually that would only lead to trucks overwhelmingly taking the A6 -> (A45) -> (A80) -> A8 route from Mannheim to Munich to cut inbetween both the longer route (A6->A9) and the slow hilly route (A8).

Traffic jams on the A roads around Stuttgart in my opinion are pretty predictable - the B roads far less so.

There always tends to be one southwards on the A81 up to about Sindelfingen, starting at the A8/A81/A831 Kreuz, and one eastwards on the A8 starting from the A8/B9 Kreuz at the airport that runs up to slightly behind Kirchheim unter Teck (during vacation time to Geislinger Steige). The combination of both in extreme cases backlogs the A8 up to Leonberger Kreuz. I've never sat in any _noteworthy_ traffic jams out west on the A8 or north on the A81.


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## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> I've never sat in any _noteworthy_ traffic jams out west on the A8 or north on the A81.


Me too, but it didn't happen to me anywhere in the world! I never lost more than 60 minutes in any traffic jam. I think this usually happens when there is an accident with lanes closure.

In Stuttgart region it's usually stop and go just everywhere. For instance, A81 southbound from Heilbronn, stop+go usually starts anywhere between Mundelsheim and Ludwigsburg-South. Mostly at Ludwigsburg-North. And it lasts till AD Leonberg through Engelberg tunnel. Then you are on A8 with even bigger problems. Nevertheless, you can lose just a few minutes compared to "empty" road on northern A81 or even more than 30 minutes without any "big" incident. One days it's fine, the next day it's bad. Or one Tuesday it's fine, next Tuesday same time it's bad. Unpredictable.

I usually use B10 from Zuffenhausen. There's always some congestion till the first exit and then free flow for 3km (limited to 80/60/50 km/h) till B10 merges with B27. There's always more stop than go because of Friedrichswahl ramp with traffic lights (map).








Source: Stuttgarter Nachrichten (pic is old when a building was just removed ~2010/11. There are a gas station and a big car dealerhip on the "empty" place in the middle now)

The ramp is discussed to be removed.... Long story...

The 2x3 Heilbronner Straße is fine since it was upgraded from 2x2 (completed in August 2012). The Pragsattel tunnel was opened in 2006 which fixed the biggest problem. But you get stuck on B27 from Pragsattel to downtown or on B10 from Pragsattel to Neckar river. Rosenstein tunnel is u/c (2014 to late 2020 at the earliest) and will hopefully fix the next two bottlenecks at Rosenstein bridge and Leuze tunnel. You can have luck or lose 15..20 minutes in both directions here (mostly going northwards). I usually drive in the opposite direction than commuter traffic from Leuze but see the queues on B10 Esslingen - Neckarpark or B14 Kappelberg tunnel.

The problem is that all routes go through Stuttgart meeting at Neckarpark (B14 from north-east, B29 from east and B10 from south-east) or Leuze/Pragsattel (B14/B27 from south, B295 from west, B10 from north-west). Only A8/A81 tangents bypass Stuttgart....

Old B14 through Bad Cannstadt and Fellbach is an alternative to B14 Kappelberg tunnel. A colleage told me that it's usually predictable (2 minutes more) but only if Kappelberg tunnel does not have a bigger problem so that it must temporarily being closed.

The next alternative Neckar crossing to the north is Remseck (Ludwigsburg-Fellbach) where you always get stuck. It's only a question of how much time you lose.

The best route from Heilbronn to Waiblingen (or east of Waiblingen) is leaving A81 at Pleidelsheim. Not going along Neckar because you'll end up in Remseck but driving to the east via Affalterbach and arriving B14 at Winnenden from the west.

I often leave A81 at Mundelsheim and drive via Backnang and arrive Winnenden from the north. However, it's just because I wanna see (damn slow) B14 widening progress. B14 is much better than it was before Winnenden bypass was opened but it's not an alternative if your destination is eastern Stuttgart / Esslingen.


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## JB Colbert

@MichiH
Yes, new Project meant as new Road.


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## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> Me too, but it didn't happen to me anywhere in the world! I never lost more than 60 minutes in any traffic jam. I think this usually happens when there is an accident with lanes closure.


I've had them in that area without any accidents e.g. on A7 southbound near Ulm during vacation time - i have no idea why though, it just cleared up after some tunnel - or on A8 ahead of Geislinger Steige (going west towards Stuttgart) due to trucks being extra careful in driving down it at <20 km/h in rain, interleaved on both lanes.

If you want a real traffic jam - not stop-and-go - really only caused by traffic try rushhour on the N3 south out of Luxembourg towards France.

Friday evenings on A6 southeast of Mannheim are also fun. These days it's probably 40 km stop-and-go from Mannheim to Sinsheim. If there are no accidents.


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## MichiH

^^ I'm not looking for traffic jams but for free flow. I love flying 250km/h on Autobahns


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## ChrisZwolle

An oversize load burned in a construction zone on A5 near Lahr in Southern Germany last night. It happened around 3 a.m. They had to call a big crane to move the 73 ton piece of machinery to another lowbed truck. A5 is currently still closed in both directions. There could be pavement damage.










Photo by SWR.


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## Ni3lS

JB Colbert said:


> Which plans, if any, are foreseen for Stuttgart area?
> Which is the biggest german highway Blackhole...


Further demotivating car use and impeding traffic flow through pointless construction zones where nothing is happening. 









kato2k8 said:


> i have no idea why though, it just cleared up after some tunnel -


THIS! I have a B14 / B10 commute every single day and there are fixed areas where there is traffic, always. One of them is the Kappelberg Tunnel at Fellbach (B14). Traffic would flow fine until the tunnel entrance in the Northern direction and then all of a sudden it sometimes comes to a complete standstill. About 3/4 through the tunnel traffic starts clearing up and you can drive the 100 km/h speed limit. It's fairly dangerous and until today I still haven't figured out what's going on. The exit after the tunnel is never congested. The only thing I can think of is that it goes uphill and that trucks go really slow, leading to cars switching to the left lane quite suddenly at low speeds. 

All-in-all Stuttgart is really ridiculous in terms of traffic. I wish the point made above about construction zones was a joke but it isn't. What irritates me more are traffic lights that are not aligned and still work on 1970 timers. There are hundreds of them that are not aligned causing traffic to block junctions and making everything worse. The A-hole of traffic lights to me is one on the B10 right around the corner of the Wilhelma. Coming from the East (direction Esslingen) 90% of the traffic (mostly through traffic) needs to turn left and go North. That junction at the Wilhelma gets blocked all the time because a light at the U-bahn station (for pedestrians only) goes on green usually 5-10 seconds after, impeding traffic flow. Indirectly this (on bad days) causes traffic all the way back to the B10-B14 at Untertürkheim or even further back. My 10 km commute varies in time from 15 minutes to 1:05 (worst so far).


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B49:* Landfill site Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to Late 2018) – project – map


 The eastbound carriageway will be opened over night from August 20 to August 21. The westbound carriageway will be opened in late August or early September. The transitions to both neighboring setions will remain one-laned only till fall. See press release. Then, there will be a continuous expressway of about 25km from A3 at Limburg.


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## Kanadzie

It's kind of strange to have such bad congestion and inadequate road network in Stuttgart, considering it is such a globally important centre for automotive industry (e.g. Mercedes, Porsche...). 

maybe BMW has better reputation for "handling" because Muenchen is easier to drive in :lol:


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## sponge_bob

Kanadzie said:


> I Muenchen is easier to drive in :lol:


Múnchen is flat, Stuttgart is down in a hole with a steep climb east towards the Múnchens and on an old Reichsautobahn with no drainage system.


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## MichiH

sponge_bob said:


> Múnchen is flat, Stuttgart is down in a hole


True. But only Daimler headquarter and the powertrain plants are down in the hole along Neckar river (my former destination for business trips). The E class final assembly plant is at Sindelfingen just down the congested A81 (120,000 vehicles/day on 2x2, announced 2x3 widening period is 2020 to 2026). Porsche plant is in Zuffenhausen close to "the" bottleneck of the northwest, B10/A81 interchange. A minor improvement is currently u/c.



sponge_bob said:


> with a steep climb east towards the Múnchens and on an old Reichsautobahn with no drainage system.


Well, the Reichsautobahn section starts 50km from city center. btw: The plan approval supplement procedure for the 2x3 realignment was started in June. Construction period should be 2021 to 2027.

Comparing München and Stuttgart is difficult. München is also quite congested and is growing faster. There is also a huge opposition to road infrastructure projects, e.g. the southern beltway will likely never ever being built. However, most Bavarian politicians support road infrastructure and a lot of projects were submitted for the demand plan (BVWP 2030). Virtually all Autobahns around München are planned to be widened and most of them even got a high (VB) or even the highest priority (VB-E = urgent demand - bottleneck elimination), see map: http://bvwp-projekte.de/map_street.html. And Bavarian road authorities are the "best" all over Germany (well, best of the worst is still bad ) "Best" in planning and implementing BVWP projects, Hesse is better in site management.


----------



## MichiH

Mr. Scheuer, Federal Minister of Transport, said: "Regardless of the events in Genoa, we will be presenting a new advanced bridge test index by the end of 2018"; Up to now, a bridge is already in poor condition, "if there are small potholes or missing sprouts on the bridge railings, without this being a hazard" said Scheuer. In the future, "load capacity or structure will prevail"


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## MichiH

rudiwien said:


> Love it that they "know" that the end will be at precisely at 8 pm in the evening, *17 years* from now on.


A typical software issue


----------



## Kanadzie

rudiwien said:


> Love it that they "know" that the end will be at precisely at 8 pm in the evening, *17 years* from now on.





> A citizen orders a Trabant car. The salesman tells him to come back to pick it up in nine years. The customer asks: "Shall I come back in the morning or in the evening then?" — "You're joking, aren't you?" — "No, not at all. It's just that I need to know whether the plumber can come at 3pm or not."


 :lol:


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## Bender

Not many news were posted lately on the Leverkusen bridge. From what I can see when driving there, some piling is being done close to river on the Cologne side. On the other side, lots of lanes closed, an important ramp has been taken down (A1 to A59 direction Leverkusen) with the traffic being rerouted... all that congestion might give us a chance to admire the progress on the new bridge while standing still in the traffic jam.


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## HarlingenHardest

^^ I made some drive-by pics on 15.8.2018. 



















Do you know what was going on this weekend between Kreuz Köln-Nord and Köln-Niehl?


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## Attus

^^
New bridge elements were installed at Köln-Nord.


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## MichiH

*A21:* Klein Barkau – north of Nettelsee 6.2km (September 2018 to 2022) – project – map

The groundbreaking ceremony took place today, see press release. Total costs are 65.5 million €. The plan approval procedure was started in Januar 2012, the order was passed in December 2016. Funding was assigned in June 2017.


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## Bender

Attus said:


> ^^
> New bridge elements were installed at Köln-Nord.


They also installed a few large beams on another bridge (Industriestrasse) closer to the bridge.


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## HarlingenHardest

MichiH said:


> ^^ Yep, I drove the same direction 2 weeks ago
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> Another delay, October 2018 now. Source.


Save the date. 13-10-2018. 

http://www.general-anzeiger-bonn.de/region/ahr-und-rhein/bad-neuenahr-ahrweiler/Umgehung-Bad-Neuenahr-wird-im-Oktober-er%C3%B6ffnet-article3936375.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Hamburg - Bremen*

The state court in Hannover has denied a request by A1 Mobil for a € 780 million compensation package due to lower than anticipated truck volumes on A1 between Hamburg and Bremen.

The consortium A1 Mobil expanded some 70 kilometers of A1 between Hamburg and Bremen from four to six lanes between 2008 and 2012. This was a PPP project with a traffic revenue risk, they were getting money based on the truck volume. The truck volumes were 20% lower than anticipated, resulting in lower payouts, so they demanded a € 780 million compensation, which has now been denied.

This PPP structure is relatively uncommon (perhaps a Germany-only model) and is currently not being pursued anymore. Present-day PPPs are based on availability payments, with the main incentive being the availability of the infrastructure (early completion means more money, fewer lane closures means more money) while also incentivizing quality work (early repairs result in lower payouts).

The court argued that the lower than anticipated truck volume is a business risk they knew could happen. They can't expect to make a profit but turn any losses onto society.


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## geogregor

ChrisZwolle said:


> This PPP structure is relatively uncommon (perhaps a Germany-only model) and is currently not being pursued anymore.


It wasn't only German. They had similar contracts in Ireland. But as you say they don't pursue them anymore, any new contract (like N25 New Ross bypass or M11 Enniscorthy bypass) are based on availability payments.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ They had this specific PPP model in Ireland? Usage payments based on truck volumes specifically?

Shadow tolls are more common, but I thought truck volumes only are a specific thing in Germany.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B49:* Landfill site Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to 20th August 2018) [direction Wetzlar] – project – map
> *B49:* Landfill site Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to Early September 2018) [direction Limburg] – project – map


The 2nd c/w was opened on 5th September.


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## MichiH

HarlingenHardest said:


> Save the date. 13-10-2018.
> 
> http://www.general-anzeiger-bonn.de...-wird-im-Oktober-eröffnet-article3936375.html


1*2*-10-2018


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## ChrisZwolle

*Liège*

Straßen.NRW is in the process of phasing out exonyms on their signs, so Arnheim becomes Arnhem, Nimwegen becomes Nijmegen. And now new signage at Kreuz Aachen shows Liège instead of Lüttich.


A44 Kreuz Aachen - Liège by European Roads, on Flickr


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## General Maximus

^^ Most, if not all signs have been changed over now anyway. This has been a process which lasted years in NRW, but Nijmegen and Arnhem has been fully adapted. Only the local signs seem to be staying the old way. In other states they still appear to prefer the old way on motorways, and use both spellings.


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## General Maximus

Pictures I took last year when they were rearranging the interchange at Aachen


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## Spookvlieger

Just passed through that interchange earlier this evening. It's a very nice interchange right now. One of the best.


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## da_scotty

ChrisZwolle said:


> Straßen.NRW is in the process of phasing out exonyms on their signs, so Arnheim becomes Arnhem, Nimwegen becomes Nijmegen. And now new signage at Kreuz Aachen shows Liège instead of Lüttich.
> 
> 
> A44 Kreuz Aachen - Liège by European Roads, on Flickr


Is Brüssel correct as that would be the name of Brussel/Brussels/Bruxelles in the german part of Belgium?


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## flierfy

da_scotty said:


> Is Brüssel correct as that would be the name of Brussel/Brussels/Bruxelles in the german part of Belgium?


One has to make an exception of the rule for Brussel as their no broadly agreed endonym for the town. Retaining the exonym in this case is therefore a fairly sensible solution.


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## ChrisZwolle

Interestingly, Brussels is not signed on E40 in Eastern Belgium. It doesn't show up on the signs until Battice (E42), so there is a discontinuity there. I wonder if Brüssel is signed anywhere in the German-speaking part of Belgium. 

From Kreuz Aachen there are two routes that take you to Brussels: E314 through the Netherlands and E40 via Liège. According to Google Maps E314 is 3 kilometers shorter, but the travel time is pretty much the same.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B300:* AS Dasing (A8) – AS Gallenbach 1.5km (October 2014 to October 2018) – project – map


 The opening ceremony will be on 21st September 2018 at 3PM. The Federal Minister of Transport, Mr. Scheuer, CSU party, and the State Minister of Construction and Transport, Ms. Aigner, CSU party, will be there. Source (pic is about 3 weeks old).

The 2018 Bavarian state election will be held on 14 October 2018 to elect the 180 members of the 18th Landtag of Bavaria. CSU party will lose the absolute majority according to the latest opinion pollings.


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## piotr71

Bilingual road sign in Łužica/Lausitz.


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## Rohne

These can be seen everywhere around Bautzen because of the Sorbian minority.


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## detreinbek

Rohne said:


> These can be seen everywhere around Bautzen because of the Sorbian minority.


https://www.google.de/url?sa=i&rct=...aw02WjI8M6Yx__TRI_3X24kZ&ust=1536918626344026

Bilingual also in North Germany, here near to Hamburg. Its the north german dialect Plattdeutsch


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## ChrisZwolle

*A81 Sindelfingen - Böblingen*

A plan approval order has been issued for the A81 expansion south of Stuttgart. It concerns a 7 kilometer section between Sindelfingen-Ost and Böblingen-Hulb. This portion will be expanded from four to six lanes. It includes an 850 meter long tunnel and several high noise barriers. 

They expect to start construction in 2020, with 4.5 - 5 years of construction planned. The projected cost is € 226 million.

It took 22 years to complete the procedures, which started way back in 1996.

https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rps/Seiten/pressemitteilung.aspx?rid=2025


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## MichiH

^^ 95,000 to 116,000 vehicles/weekday


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Which means six lanes may be underdesigned...


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## MichiH

^^ Yep! That's why they plan shoulder running there.


> Die jetzt genehmigte Planung beinhaltet den sechsstreifigen Ausbau der A 81 im rund 7 km langen Streckenabschnitt zwischen den Anschlussstellen Sindelfingen-Ost und Böblingen-Hulb. Daneben sollen in Teilabschnitten während der Spitzenstunden auch die Seitenstreifen als zusätzliche Fahrstreifen frei gegeben werden.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A40 Wachtendonk*

Split lanes on A40 at the Wachtendonk interchange. They probably did this to spread the load on the bridge, as it is evidently in very poor condition.


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## Patrick

Patrick said:


> We're now approaching the new bridge over the Lahn river. It was built to widen the road to 4+4 here, because the old bridge was only 3+3. This stretch between Limburg-Nord and Limburg-Süd carries lots of regional traffic as the inner city of Limburg is bypassed here. Main goal of course is to reduce congestion at rush hour here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're now on the other side of the Lahn river and have geographically quit the Westerwald region. Selters and Königstein are new and had not been signed here in the past.


just noticed today that those new signs for the right lane have already been changed or modified (line spacing between Selters and Brechen is too small though...)...




























no more Königstein here










but no Brechen here


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## Patrick

at exit Montabaur of A3, 2nd exit in Rhineland-Palatinate behind Hessian border, they adopted a single feature from the hessian signage system:

The "throw-out-arrow" disappeared, instead there is an extra sign with no arrow at all.

compare 2007 to 2017 (all pics by me)

southbound

















northbound


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B300:* AS Dasing (A8) – AS Gallenbach 1.5km (21st September 2014 to 21st September 2018) – project – map


It was opened on schedule, see press release.




MichiH said:


> *B14:* south of AS Waldrems – north of AS Nellmersbach 1.0km (June 2016 to October 2018) – ? – map


Both carriageways will be put into service on 26th September but 1 lane per direction only to enable remaining works on the median. See press release.




MichiH said:


> *B29:* east of Böbingen – west of Essingen 6.9km (July 2015 to April 2019) – project – map


A bridge which was concreted in August must be renewed because there was a power outage. There is no delay to the completion though, the completion date is 26th April 2019. See press release.




MichiH said:


> *A36:* rededication AD Vienenburg (A369) – AK Bernburg (A14) 84.5km (2019) – ? – map
> *A369:* rededication AD Vienenburg (A36) – Bad Harzburger Dreieck (B6) 4.3km (2019) – ? – map


The Saxony-Anhalt segment (more than 80km) will officially be dedicated as Autobahn on 1st January 2019. See news article.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B101:* AS Thyrow – AS Trebbin-North 5.0km (May 2015 to Late 2018) – project – map


To be opened in December 2018, remaining works till summer 2019. Source.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B85:* AS Neubäu-West – AS Neubäu-East 4.0km (November 2015 to Late October 2018) [1st c/w] – project – map


November 2018 now. Source.


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## Ni3lS

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Which means six lanes may be underdesigned...


No doubt.. Stood 30 minutes in traffic there last night at 19:30.. :nuts:


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## General Maximus

Which was unthinkable a little while ago, has now become reality. Coming from Austria or Munich, the Stuttgart, Karlsruhe, Koblenz route is now preferred over Nürnberg, Frankfurt and Cologne (Köln). They swapped roadworks. I've just driven the A8, A61 and with a few minor works compared to the A3 Baustelle disaster, I'll defenitly keep on using this route for now.


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## MichiH

^^ A5/A8 will see more construction sites soon, e.g. 2x3 widening near Pforzheim by 2024 and the last 11km 2x3 widening north of Ulm (to be started anytime >= 2020) and 2x3 realignment Albaufstieg (2021 to 2027?).
And A3 will also get more construction sites - entire route b/n A7 and A73 will be widened to 2x3 from 2020 to 2024 (~70km).

Parallel A6 in-between is to be widened to 2x3 in the same period


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## Malazana

That's cool. What about the joke of a highway between Salzburg and Rosenheim? Will it be widened because it surely needs it!


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## stickedy

Malazana said:


> That's cool. What about the joke of a highway between Salzburg and Rosenheim? Will it be widened because it surely needs it!


This joke needs a complete reconstruction also with new alignment - since 50 years at least. This "motorway" is like it was after WW2 (beside of some repavements and new signs).

But we were wasting our money for unimportant motorways like A73 from Lichtenfels to Suhl instead.

They just reconstructed the motorway A70 from interchange A9 (Dreieck Bayreuth/Kulmbach) to exit 24 (Kulmbach/Neudrossenfeld). This was the same mess than A8 Rosenheim-Salzburg, just much shorter.

The reconstruction of A8 is planned, but the are no concrete plans made yet. Siegsdorf - border is also just "weiterer Bedarf". Expect works to start in 15 years then to start, 25 years to be finished...

http://bvwp-projekte.de/strasse/A008-G010-BY-T3-BY/A008-G010-BY-T3-BY.html
http://bvwp-projekte.de/strasse/A008-G010-BY-T4-BY/A008-G010-BY-T4-BY.html


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## MichiH

^^ A8 from Rosenheim to Salzburg is planned to be widened to 2x3 according to the federal demand plan 2030 issued by the Bundestag in late 2016*. But the Bundesrechnungshof (Federal Court of Auditors) criticizes that the costs are too high and the benefit-cost relation is less than 1 which means the project is noneconomical. Costs should be reduced, e.g. not widening to 2x3 lanes but to 2x2 lanes plus hard shoulders only or removing noise protection tunnels.

*The benefit-cost relation is officially 1.2 but it also includes 2x4 widening from Munich to Rosenheim (total costs: 1.85 billion € for 116km, thereof 2x3 widening Rosenheim-Salzburg: 1.25 billion € for 70km and 2x4 widening Munich-Rosenheim: 0.6 billion € for 46km). 770 million € out of the 1.8 billion € are renovation costs which are not considered for the benefit-cost calculation because a "simple" renovation would definitely be necessary also without widening the Autobahn.

http://bvwp-projekte.de/strasse/A008-G010-BY/A008-G010-BY.html

https://www.rosenheim24.de/rosenhei...rneuerung-dringend-erforderlich-10043065.html
https://www.rosenheim24.de/rosenhei...sse-darf-nicht-ausgebaut-werden-10043265.html
https://www.rosenheim24.de/rosenhei...ro-tunnelbau-frasdorf-einsparen-10046334.html


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## MichiH

kato2k8 said:


> Short news: Construction site for a new valley bridge in Schraudenbach collapsed (40 meters of bridge went down), heavy casualties among the 20 construction workers. A7 between Würzburg and Schweinfurt.


The investigation of the incident is done and three engineers are indicted for manslaughter and bodily injury caused by negligence now. 13 workers fall down with the bridge in June 2016. 1 died, 14 were badly injured. The bridge collapsed because of an underdimensioned connecting component which was miscalculated by the engineers. See press release.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to 2019) [discontinuation: 1.4km] – project – map
> *A30:* AS Dehme – AS Bad Oeynhausen-East 1.9km (September 2008 to 2019) – project – map


Maybe the bypass can be opened by the end of the year. There's a chance that it could open westbound in week 47 and eastbound in week 49. It seems that a successful fire drill is the last issue. However, only the first (northern) carriageway would be opened on the western section. Construction works on the second carriageway will take till "far into 2019" ("tief ins Jahr 2019") but not till the end of year. I guess it means something like "Summer 2019".

https://www.mt.de/lokales/regionales/22264318_Bald-rollt-der-Verkehr-ueber-die-Nordumgehung.html
http://www.autobahn-online.de/phorum/read.php?2,109667,189928#msg-189928

btw: The eastern section is already "opened" on Google Maps


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## ChrisZwolle

*B266 Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler*

The 1.8 kilometer long section of B266 around Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler opened to traffic today. Construction took 9.5 years. :nuts:










>> http://www.general-anzeiger-bonn.de...ad-Neuenahr-wird-eröffnet-article3958950.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Tribsees*

An update of the A20 collapse near Tribsees by NDR. They are constructing a new temporary bridge of definitive foundations.


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## ChrisZwolle

*truck crashes*

BMVI released some statistics about traffic safety in 2017. There was a slight (0.8%) decrease in fatalities, with one exception: truck drivers. The number of fatalities among truck drivers went up by 25%, a significant break in the trend. However it fits in the narrative that the number of severe truck crashes appears to be increasing.


----------



## TM_Germany

More like vehicles have gotten safer. German roads have done nothing but worsened in the last 18 years. Some expansion and realignment projects might have made some stretches of road safer but that is certainly offset by the *huge* number of high-risk construction sites.


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## ChrisZwolle

The average age of a car is around 10 years. Which means that in 2000, the average car on the road was built in 1990, most of which lacked decent passive safety accessories. There are many countries in Europe where the number of fatalities have dropped significantly between 2000 and 2010, but then began to level off. It's as they say: achieving the last 10/30% of a goal is much harder than achieving the first 70/90%. 

I also believe that the safer cars played the most significant role in traffic fatality rates, because accident and injury rates have not decreased by that much. You can now survive huge crashes that meant almost certain death in the 1980s or 1990s. Most crashes are due to human error, so improving infrastructure will help to reduce fatalities, but won't eliminate it entirely.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The average age of a car is around 10 years. Which means that in 2000, the average car on the road was built in 1990


[SCIENCE GEEK MODE] assuming the average age of a car doesn't change with time.[/SCIENCE GEEK MODE] :nuts:


----------



## Des

I drove nearly the full length of the A7 twice this week and I can't believe how many building sites there are. 
Nearly every bridge is under renovation / construction. On some bridges they painted some extra lines and 
reduced the speed to 80. I think the lines are only there to reduce the width of the road so people stick to the 
80 km/h speed limit but maybe someone knows more?

https://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/911244-1539943727.jpeg


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Whoa. Can you the reduce the picture size please?


----------



## MattiG

g.spinoza said:


> [SCIENCE GEEK MODE] assuming the average age of a car doesn't change with time.[/SCIENCE GEEK MODE] :nuts:


Another scientific (?) comment: The mileage of a passenger car typically is not distributed evenly over the lifetime. If the lifetime is 20 years, the median of the mileage may be 6..8 years. Thus, the early years are more significant than the last ones.


----------



## da_scotty

I believe the splitting of the lanes is also there to spread the stress/load of traffic over the bridge area.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Only 2x3 lanes are in service on the bridge because the neighboring sections are also not yet 2x4. It might be opened in 2020.


----------



## HarlingenHardest

*Nordumgehung Nordhorn*

A part of the northern bypass of Nordhorn (near the Dutch border) opened this afternoon: 

https://www.gn-online.de/nordhorn/verkehr-rollt-ueber-die-nordumgehung-262088.html


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A524:* west of AS Duisburg-Huckingen – west of AK Duisburg-South (A59) 1.2km (June 2017 to Early 2020) – ? – map


Delayed due to problems getting convinient filling material. Estimate opening date late 2020, remaining works to be done by summer 2021. Source.








Christoph Reichwein (crei) - RP online




MichiH said:


> *A100:* AD Neukölln – AS Am Treptower Park 3.2km (May 2013 to 2022) – project – map


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A30 Bad Oeynhausen*

Mark your calendars, after more than 10 years of construction and delays, A30 around Bad Oeynhausen will finally open to traffic on 6 December 2018! :banana:

This completes one of the most important missing links in the European motorway system: E30 from Amsterdam to Berlin and Poland.

>> https://www.strassen.nrw.de/de/pres...ung-wird-am-nikolaustag-freigegeben-5154.html


----------



## Grzegorz.Janoszka

ChrisZwolle said:


> Mark your calendars, after more than 10 years of construction and delays, A30 around Bad Oeynhausen will finally open to traffic on 6 December 2018! :banana:
> 
> This completes one of the most important missing links in the European motorway system: E30 from Amsterdam to Berlin and Poland.



That's something to celebrate! I will have my glass of wine because of that 


Because of A30 quality and huge traffic on A2/A10, I most often choose A3, A44 and A38 - slightly longer, but way less cars. A38 is often empty on weekends. Driving on empty highway is a pure pleasure, I get quickly tired having to drive in heavy traffic.

Of course you can only do that when you go to central/south Germany or south Poland, otherwise A30/A2 still makes sense.


----------



## MichiH

^^^^ Not true! The opening ceremony will be on 6 December 2018 but it will most likely be opened westbound on weekend 8/9 and eastbound one week later.

https://www.radioherford.de/nc/nach...freigabe-der-nordumgehung-am-nikolaustag.html


----------



## General Maximus

Grzegorz.Janoszka said:


> That's something to celebrate! I will have my glass of wine because of that
> 
> 
> Because of A30 quality and huge traffic on A2/A10, I most often choose A3, A44 and A38 - slightly longer, but way less cars. A38 is often empty on weekends. Driving on empty highway is a pure pleasure, I get quickly tired having to drive in heavy traffic.
> 
> Of course you can only do that when you go to central/south Germany or south Poland, otherwise A30/A2 still makes sense.


The A38 is great! I use it a lot when heading towards Dresden or Poland.


----------



## Kanadzie

It's amusing to think of A38 as a fast pleasant road when you're used to the English one :lol:


----------



## General Maximus

The English A38 is a nightmare.


----------



## HarlingenHardest

MichiH said:


> November 2018 now. Source.


16-11 to be precise.

https://www.mittelbayerische.de/region/cham-nachrichten/verkehrsfreigabe-am-16-november-20909-art1712316.html


----------



## snowdog

Finally, Bad Oeynhausen has always been a pain, unnecessary slowdown.


----------



## HarlingenHardest

And it has always been a very healthy spa town.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A281 Bremen*

The newspaper Weser Kurier reports that the federal government has funded the Weser Tunnel project of A281 in Bremen. The cost has also escalated by a third from € 260 to € 345 million. Some works may start this year, with full-scale construction in 2019 and a completion in 2024. Will it finally happen? 

>> https://www.weser-kurier.de/bremen/...s-wesertunnels-wird-teurer-_arid,1779095.html


----------



## MichiH

^^ I think that the news article is mismatching some facts. It claims that enforceable building permit (vollziehbares Baurecht) will be reached in early 2019 but it is already available since August 2018. Another A281 section will reach it in early 2019 according to a press release from September: https://www.senatspressestelle.brem...d=bremen146.c.306015.de&asl=bremen02.c.732.de.

Both sections should be opened in (late) 2024. 4.9km + 2.2km 2x2 (mostly) w/o hard shoulders and Vmax 80km/h.


----------



## HarlingenHardest

A piece of B299 opened yesterday: https://www.donaukurier.de/lokales/riedenburg/Verkehr-Riedenburg-Verkehr-Teil-der-Ortsumfahrung-der-B299-fuer-den-Verkehr-freigegeben;art602,3962284


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A33:* AS Halle – Halle-Künsebeck 4.0km (December 2012 to Late 2018) – project – map


Construction works are on schedule. It is planned to open the section by the end of the year. There will be an open day, likely on 9th December. 

https://www.westfalen-blatt.de/OWL/...ngeln-sich-Endspurt-an-den-Laermschutzwaenden
https://www.westfalen-blatt.de/OWL/...lle-einen-Lauf-geben-A-33-Lauf-am-9.-Dezember
https://www.radioguetersloh.de/nachrichten/kreis-guetersloh/detailansicht/a-33-volkslauf.html


----------



## snowdog

Postdam to Osnabrück A2 A30 [Timelapse 8x] 
Arpil 2018

Also shows the Bad Oeynhausen old situation from 17:15


----------



## HarlingenHardest

^^ Slow version:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B32 Horb am Neckar*

Construction is set to begin on the eastern bypass of Horb am Neckar (Baden-Württemberg) this Friday. The project includes a 2 kilometer section of B32 that crosses the Neckar River Valley. It will be constructed in 2+1 layout. It will be a pretty large bridge: 670 meters long and 70 meters high. The construction cost is estimated at € 56.7 million.

>> https://www.horb.de/Neckartalbruecke

>> https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rpk/Abt4/Ref473/Seiten/B-32-Ortsumfahrung-Horb.aspx










I once spent a night on a campsite in Horb, on my way to Switzerland. It's near A81. You have to go down into the valley and then through the center of town and then climb up on the other side. The new bypass will save quite some time.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Construction is set to begin on the eastern bypass of Horb am Neckar (Baden-Württemberg) this Friday. The project includes a 2 kilometer section of B32 that crosses the Neckar River Valley.


Only the construction of this 2km section begins (eastern bypass). The next section (northern bypass) is very early planning stage. It will be built anytime after 2030 or later.


----------



## TM_Germany

which is not so bad, considering they already have a northern bypass:

source: Google Maps
red is the approximate location of the new viaduct.


----------



## t.wojtek

snowdog said:


> Postdam to Osnabrück A2 A30 [Timelapse 8x]
> Arpil 2018
> 
> Also shows the Bad Oeynhausen old situation from 17:15


This movie shows why I like driving on German highways and why it's easier than in other countries


----------



## General Maximus

Why easier? Congestion, road rage and lots of _Baustellen_ does not come under the definition of easier on my books...


----------



## snowdog

No speed limits in many places, in places where speed limits are, +20 km/h is no problem as the fines cost bugger all (hell, the French tolls are more expensive!), less police on the roads, people move to the right: mostly, surface more suitable than in NL for fast driving (a lot of Dutch have huge ''waves'' in the road because of the bog they're built on, and you're sent flying/airborne over 200 km/h), drivers respect faster drivers (most annoying drivers have NL or PL plates on the A2), wider lanes. Baustellen I agree but the A2+A30 are not that bad. No annoying slow (or almost none) LKW's on Sundays.

This trip was slowish, but in 2017 I could manage 147km/h on AVERAGE between the PL and NL border. There was one bit where for 20 minutes long, 187km/h on average was possible. I like fast progress, I think that around 180-220 km/h is a nice ruising speed.

In Holland I overtake 10's to hundreds of cars on the right per hour because they are blocking the overtaking lanes. In Germany, in a few hours, perhaps 10-20 cars...

Road rage? Most people in DE respect faster drivers, in NL you get road rage, brake checks, flashing main beams, etc... People have this idiotic idea that faster drivers are antisocial in NL. 
It's a much more relaxing drive, only watch the roads and your mirrors, mostly ignore the speedometer. Less impairment by slow people. Finally, it's much less boring. Driving in most EU countries, especially NL, is so sleep-inducing boring. It is no surprise a lot of drivers are constantly on their phone or doing something else.


----------



## panda80

General Maximus said:


> Why easier? Congestion, road rage and lots of _Baustellen_ does not come under the definition of easier on my books...


I drove in almost every country in Europe and I also think it's much better and nicer to drive on german motorways than in other countries. For example, compared to France or Italy, you have larger lanes (3.75m compared to 3.50m), you have long stretches without speed limit, lane discipline is generally better, you don't have to stop at toll stations, exits are much simpler and logical, because in France or Italy you have to also accomodate toll booths. Usually, despite many constructions zones, I manage to obtain a better average speed on long drives in Germany compared to other countries.


----------



## General Maximus

Alright, for the occasional driver in Germany it might be quite something. I get sick to the teeth about it for reasons as mentioned above. Day in and day out. And lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past as well. Germans have become very "schlampig" on their roads... Austria to Holland are regular runs, and in the daytime I'm not getting anywhere.

The advantage of living in France on the border with Switzerland and Germany is that I can use the A35 in France to head north towards Karlsruhe, rather than that nightmare A5 which now holds a dauerstau between Freiburg and Karlsruhe.


----------



## MichiH

General Maximus said:


> Alright, for the occasional driver in Germany it might be quite something. I get sick to the teeth about it for reasons as mentioned above. Day in and day out. And lane discipline in Germany is a thing of the past as well. Germans have become very "schlampig" on their roads...



I fully agree! Only "schlampig" is bad, I would call it "schläfrig" (not sloppy but slumbery/sleeping).


----------



## TM_Germany

I actually think lane discipline is fairly alright here on the center and left lanes but very poor in regards to the right lane. Often, the right lane is very underutilized because people think they'll be stuck behind trucks or grandmas and will have trouble moving back to the center lane because it is so full. That of course is really bad especially when the Autobahn only has 2 lanes.


----------



## TM_Germany

Construction of A100 in Berlin at the "Sonnenallee" exit:



















source

©RawData

I believe Michi posted an aerial video a couple pages back of this site.


----------



## verreme

snowdog said:


> Postdam to Osnabrück A2 A30 [Timelapse 8x]
> Arpil 2018
> 
> Also shows the Bad Oeynhausen old situation from 17:15


I have nothing against driving fast on Autobahnen (or any motorway whatsoever) but passing on the right and weaving between lanes at 180+ km/h as shown around the 5:00 minute mark is unnecessarily dangerous. Just watch any dashcam car crash compilation -many accidents start like that.

In fact one of the things I like most about German Autobahnen is that this kind of behaviour is almost non-existent, as well as tailgating. Middle-lane hogging is something you must take for granted in every European country and trying to get past dumb drivers in the middle lane by zig-zagging around them is too dangerous and saves almost no time.


----------



## stickedy

verreme said:


> In fact one of the things I like most about German Autobahnen is that this kind of behaviour is almost non-existent, as well as tailgating.


Then you are driving not too often on German motorways... That is one of the things which sucks most.

I really appreciate driving outside of Germany on motorways, it's so relaxed! In fact, I avoid German motorways as best as possible, but sadly there are destinations where you simply can't avoid them


----------



## snowdog

verreme said:


> In fact one of the things I like most about German Autobahnen is that this kind of behaviour is almost non-existent, as well as tailgating. Middle-lane hogging is something you must take for granted in every European country and trying to get past dumb drivers in the middle lane by zig-zagging around them is too dangerous and saves almost no time.


EDIT: I typed a whole wall with other thoughts on this, but not worth discussing in this topic, let's just agree to disagree.


----------



## jdb.2

Question to the German members:
I'm planning a trip from Belgium to Germany, but I need an umweltplakette.
Can you buy it on the go in Germany, or do need to order it before hand?
I could order it from Belgium but it would take 2 - 3 weeks for delivery, that's too long.

I found this Dekra office next to the A4, it would be convenient if you could just by it on the road.
https://goo.gl/maps/Q3wm55M9nr12


----------



## cinxxx

jdb.2 said:


> Question to the German members:
> I'm planning a trip from Belgium to Germany, but I need an umweltplakette.
> Can you buy it on the go in Germany, or do need to order it before hand?
> I could order it from Belgium but it would take 2 - 3 weeks for delivery, that's too long.
> 
> I found this Dekra office next to the A4, it would be convenient if you could just by it on the road.
> https://goo.gl/maps/Q3wm55M9nr12


I think you can buy it from any ADAC shop or most car service shops. You could try calling such shop close to the border in Germany and ask. There should also be some possibility to buy it from Belgium.
I only know that in Austria you can get it from the automobile club shops ÖAMTC.


----------



## g.spinoza

jdb.2 said:


> Question to the German members:
> I'm planning a trip from Belgium to Germany, but I need an umweltplakette.
> Can you buy it on the go in Germany, or do need to order it before hand?
> I could order it from Belgium but it would take 2 - 3 weeks for delivery, that's too long.
> 
> I found this Dekra office next to the A4, it would be convenient if you could just by it on the road.
> https://goo.gl/maps/Q3wm55M9nr12


Online you can find many sites selling Plaketten and shipping them abroad, some with outrageous prices, up to 30 €.
I bought mine online here:

www.feinstaubplakette.shop

for 7 € including shipping. And delivery is very fast too (mine took 3 days).


----------



## TM_Germany

What's the point of those Plaketten when you can just order them like a toll vignette? I always thought someone actually had to check if your car is actually eligible for one :lol:


----------



## MattiG

TM_Germany said:


> What's the point of those Plaketten when you can just order them like a toll vignette? I always thought someone actually had to check if your car is actually eligible for one :lol:


A copy of the registration document has to be submitted with the order. It contains the relevant information.


----------



## MichiH

^^ The same for French "Certificats Qualité de l'Air". However, costs are much lower than for the German Umweltplakette.

2.59 € Certificats Qualité de l'Air
0.52 € Taxes
1.10 € Postage
-------
*4.21 €*


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ The same for French "Certificats Qualité de l'Air". However, costs are much lower than for the German Umweltplakette.
> 
> 2.59 € Certificats Qualité de l'Air
> 0.52 € Taxes
> 1.10 € Postage
> -------
> *4.21 €*


Yes, mine just came with the mail. Pretty fast delivery, too.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Mine took more than 1 week (2 weeks ago).


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> ^^ Mine took more than 1 week (2 weeks ago).


I am Italian. 1 week qualifies as fast, here.


----------



## Wilhem275

Yet I don't understand the point, since all the info is already available in each vehicle's documents. And widely accessible online from the registration number.


----------



## stickedy

Wilhem275 said:


> Yet I don't understand the point, since all the info is already available in each vehicle's documents. And widely accessible online from the registration number.


What point you mean? Buying these at all?


----------



## Wilhem275

Adding a level of bureaucracy, time and money lost to provide an info that is already available.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There is no (European) platform providing these data online.


----------



## HarlingenHardest

*B6n Köthen - A9*

The missing link between Köthen and A9 (Tornau/Thurland) is now scheduled for the end of 2020 or 2021. 

https://www.mz-web.de/koethen/2021-waere--sehr-sportlich--verkehrsminister-gibt-vorsichtige-prognose-zur-b6n-31413854


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> ^^ There is no (European) platform providing these data online.


Every car built since 2005 qualifies for the German green sticker. I believe than 90+ per cent of the cars in German cities are younger than 13 years. Thus, the green zones have almost no benefit and the funny sticker game is pure bureaucracy.


----------



## Bender

MattiG said:


> Every car built since 2005 qualifies for the German green sticker. I believe than 90+ per cent of the cars in German cities are younger than 13 years. Thus, the green zones have almost no benefit and the funny sticker game is pure bureaucracy.


Indeed, I often see old rotten cars that display their green sticker.
It's definitely pointless.


----------



## snowdog

viptom said:


> In Poland you can lose your driving licence only for exceeding +50 km/h in urban area. Police can't take your driving licence for exceeding speed outside urban area.
> 
> What is comfort in your engine ( 1.0 TSI ). Is it comfortable on motorway at 160 km/h?? or is it too loud ?


I didn't know that, in that case, driving in Poland is probably nicer, I was afraid to go over 190 .

Barely audible, isolation is good in my car (and is probably also good in the others in the same segment (Octy/Leon/Golf/A3)), I'm not sure about the smaller platforms like the compact version of the MQB platform used in the new Ibiza, Fabia, Polo and A1).

Actually one of my complaints is I can barely hear the engine, even near the rev limiter. Also at 160 you are still low in the RPM range, in the C segment all VAG cars with this engine come with at least 6 gears manuals or 7 gear DSG. Gear ratio's are long, you can do 50km/h in 1, 100km/h in 2. You have full torque at 2000 RPM (220Nm in my case) and the turbo kicks in around 1500-1600 rpm...

I was pleasantly surprised when I got this car, before this I had a Megane 3 1.5 DCI Eco 2, that was utterly utterly terrible. Gear ratio's, engine noise, ugh, terrible (the car itself was not bad, tbh I prefer the undercarriage, comfort and steering of the Renault over the VAG MQB cars).



> Some people prefer to save fuel.


The same energy is used to accelerate fast as it is when accelerating slow and engines these days are not significantly less efficient at high rpm, mostly since EFI systems and indirect (electronic) throttle. You have a point speed wise, like if you reach your cruising speed a few seconds sooner, then you have a bit of extra wind resistance and friction from rolling. But ignoring wind resistance due to speed, the fuel use for accelerating is pretty much the same if you take 15 seconds to 130km/h compared to driving like a slowpoke and taking 60 seconds.



> about speed is a bit uncalled for.


Disagree, it's what makes driving tolerable. Driving with speed limits on motorways is the biggest annoyance on motorways.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

snowdog said:


> Driving with speed limits on motorways is the biggest annoyance on motorways.


It's worse than _Stau, Stockender Verkehr, Baustelle, Blitzer, LKW-unfall, Brückenschäden, Tankstellenkaffeepreise_, etc?


----------



## MichiH

flapane said:


> As a matter of fact, is there a "minimum" speed on those stretches?





General Maximus said:


> 70 I think...
> 
> Trucks are not supposed to go faster than 80. Although, in practice, 90 is tolerated.


There is NO minimum speed. Only vehicles with a top speed less than 60 km/h are not allowed to use any Autobahn at all.


----------



## Stuu

snowdog said:


> The same energy is used to accelerate fast as it is when accelerating slow.


No. That's not true. Just try watching the fuel consumption on your trip computer and you'll see the difference. I had a Golf GTI which would go to low single figures (mpg) if accelerated hard, it never went anything below 20 accelerating normally


----------



## snowdog

Yes, you can see you use (for example) 15l/100km for 30 seconds, instead of 30l/100km for 15 seconds...

Engines run most efficiently close to their peak torque at wide open throttle and at the lowest RPM possible. 
The best way to accelerate is to accelerate as fast as possible in the lowest RPM. But these days in modern cars ( Like I said, since EFI and since your pedal is not directly connected to the throttle house by cable but rather has a computer in between that calculates the best way to accelerate fuel/air mixture wise and responds faster than classic fuel computers) the difference between high and low RPM fuel consumption wise is not that big.

The energy required for the acceleration in total, does not change at all...


----------



## g.spinoza

_Lärmschutz.
bei Nässe.
beim Verlassen.
Mindestens halber Tacho._


----------



## General Maximus

Not to mention the impossible quest to find the city of Ausfahrt...


----------



## Spookvlieger

g.spinoza said:


> _Lärmschutz.
> bei Nässe.
> beim Verlassen.
> Mindestens halber Tacho._


Geschwindigkeitsüberwachung - RADAR KONTROLLE - on a 5 km stretch with a max speed of 60 on a stretch where you don't even know what the heck they are actually doing there besides some yellow paint on the road surface. That said I have no reason to complain since I'm from Belgium.


----------



## MichiH

So many guys using German words here...

DEGES has published a video today explaining why planning procedures for Autobahns and Bundesstraßen take so long (in German):


----------



## Kanadzie

snowdog said:


> Yes, you can see you use (for example) 15l/100km for 30 seconds, instead of 30l/100km for 15 seconds...
> 
> Engines run most efficiently close to their peak torque at wide open throttle and at the lowest RPM possible.
> The best way to accelerate is to accelerate as fast as possible in the lowest RPM. But these days in modern cars ( Like I said, since EFI and since your pedal is not directly connected to the throttle house by cable but rather has a computer in between that calculates the best way to accelerate fuel/air mixture wise and responds faster than classic fuel computers) the difference between high and low RPM fuel consumption wise is not that big.
> 
> The energy required for the acceleration in total, does not change at all...


But the car energy consumption (aerodynamic drag) is much higher, and you get that extra 15 seconds at higher speed 

But yeah, like you say, lowest BSFC at maximum load at point of peak volumetric efficiency (=torque peak)

I don't think much difference because of computer... unless you also have an automatic...


----------



## Wilhem275

In general I find that strong accelerations followed by constant speed (better with cruise control) give a slightly better efficiency than weak accelerations which go on and on for hundreds of meters.
With most cars I use 1st-2nd-3rd gears to reach 50 and then skip straight to 5th to keep the pace.

And this doesn't take traffic efficiency into account.
Fast accelerations plus slow and long decelerations are the best compromise between fuel consumption, average performance AND road capacity (grandma-style accelerations generate a lot of micro delays in the flow).

To keep a high average speed it's better to raise it fast than reaching high top speeds, and there's also safety to factor in.

Enzo Ferrari used to say "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"


----------



## Kanadzie

it always seems cruise control wastes gas trying to keep speed uphill and then loses it by slowing down on the downhill though...


----------



## Wilhem275

Well, that's its job  it's meant to keep constant speed, not power output/fuel consumption. 

Traffic-wise it's the right thing to do, the flow should not slow down for hills.

To me the problem is that many CC show sloppy reactions to gradient changes, so they first lose too much speed and then try to overcompensate, and then descent begins with the engine still at full steam... :nuts:

Where I live I have some speed cameras just after short bridges, and CC always gets me there at 5 km/h over the set speed... icard:


----------



## MichiH

The Lower Saxony Ministry of Transport and the Federal Ministry of Transport have agreed to promote Autobahn construction in Lower Saxony. They mention two projects in a press release.

The groundbreaking ceremony for the southernmost *A39 section just north of Wolfsburg* (14km) will be next spring. I don't know details but the plan approval order was passed in April 2018 and the project is challenged, see press release of BUND Niedersachsen from July. The plan approval order is still not yet enforceable according to the project page. Only preliminary works, continuous ecological functionality-measures, have already been started. :nuts:










The other project is the *A20 river Elbe tunnel *west of Hamburg. They agreed that the tender procedure should be started immediately ("umgehend"). It will be done by DEGES (remember yesterday's video). However, some plan approval supplemental procedures have been started this year and the Schleswig-Holstein state chancellery has just announced two weeks ago that the order will be passed in 2021 at the earliest. :nuts:


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> The other project is the *A20 river Elbe tunnel *west of Hamburg. They agreed that the tender procedure should be started immediately ("umgehend"). It will be done by DEGES (remember yesterday's video). However, some plan approval supplemental procedures have been started this year and the Schleswig-Holstein state chancellery has just announced two weeks ago that the order will be passed in 2021 at the earliest. :nuts:


This is a very good news. Bypassing the Hamburg area when traveling to or from Scandinavia is often a nightmare. 

I shall, however, miss the Glückstadt ferry. They even have a separate cabin for the kids:


----------



## TM_Germany

People always complain about the bad shape of the German motorway network (including me). But I just discovered a new angle to it: It's an unbelievable miracle that it's still even usable today :lol: 

Here is a graph that shows infrastructure spending (for federal roads and Autobahnen from 2016, so it might be slightly different today but still). 
As you can see, roughly 7bn€ were spent this year and are planned to be spend the next years each. Compare that to the Netherlands, which only has a fraction of the total length of motorways (~2300 km vs 13000km) with a road budget of 3.1bn€ planned for next year. Only a little more than twice the budget for more than 5 and a half times as many kilometers! And the difference grows even larger if you include how many more federal roads there are in Germany compared to national roads in NL :nuts: 
Yet the media only keeps reporting how there are "record sums" of money being invested in infrastructure. An even more direct comparison is NL to NRW (similar size, population, network length and age of motorways). NRW only got around 1.2bn€ in funding for federal roads and Autobahnen this year compared to the before mentioned 3bn in NL.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yep, that's the point! Politicians don't lie when they talk about records. But Media is just repeating what politicians say. They don't deep dive into the facts and compare it to other countries. But when a bridge collapses in Italy, they compare it to German bridges. Of course, authorities tell them why German bridges are "safer". So sad... hno:

btw: It's not fake news but just lack of investigation. And populism. They only analyse things which are populare. Like football leaks or Trump spectacle, doping, refugees/immigrants...


----------



## g.spinoza

I found a - rather illegible - document about Italy's ANAS financial report for 2015. Its budget for building, maintenance and projects is 1.5 billion euro - for three times as much motorways as the Netherlands and 20,000 km of other roads.

Enough said.


----------



## MichiH

@ChrisZwolle: Do you have any (reliable) data about how much money is spent by each (European) country for road infrastructure maintenance?


----------



## flapane

Well, this explains why from time to time there are rumors on tolls. The A network is extensive, but on the other hand... it would definitely need more care.


----------



## TM_Germany

MichiH said:


> PPP is less popular because only one company (or usually consortium) gets the contract. The Mittelstand thing....


In the post before you said that the dutch company Chris and I were referring to, who got the PPP contract for A10/A24, were slowed down because of the "Mittelstand thing". You are confusing me because it directly contradicts what you write next:




MichiH said:


> It's quicker because it's managed by one company itself. PPP contractors are usually paid depending on the availabilty of the road. Tender procedures for every single job is time-consuming and just stupid.


I certainly agree. Doesn't anybody have connections to the people responsible? :bash: I heard the dutch minister for infrastructure was term limited some time ago. Can we have her? :lol:



MichiH said:


> Yes, Germans love to claim that PPP is more expensive. See below....


I could easily imagine PPPs were more expensive under normal circumstances, the companies' profits have to come from somewhere after all. It's just that it's utterly worth it to pay a surcharge to a private consortium instead of having to sit in a traffic jam for decades because state authorities can't/won't/are too incompetent to build just as quickly and efficiently as them. Given the economic demage traffic jams cause, it's certainly also the economically better option.



MichiH said:


> State authorities and politicians FIGHT against PPP. Especially Lower Saxony and NRW. They obstructed the Federal Ministry of Transport plan for PPP in the last years. They wanna employ their own guys with all the work because they think that only they can do it well. They claim that PPP is more expensive for tax payers but they need to consider the economic damage correctly ("volkswirtschaftlicher Schaden"). I read years ago that companies in Cologne region lose 1 billion € / year because their trucks and salesmen spend so much time in congestions ("Stau"). It's insane that Germans think that it's normal to spend so much time in Stau and they don't wanna improve the situation. Too many NIMBYs and too many Green voters meanwhile.


Completely agree. It completely baffles me how so many Germans just accept the status quo as normal and don't ask why it is like that "Das ist halt so". Furthermore, it seems like none of the media or experts ever try to change that. Whenever I go around telling people how stupid German road construction is, they usually reply with something like "Well, we can't be as quick as China!" They are suprised when I say that just doing it like the Netherlands would be more than enough.



MichiH said:


> Just imagine that big companies could pay the road infrastructure improvement and their truck driver would lose less time in congestions. Just imagine. This cannot be Germany...
> 
> The PPP projects in NRW and Lower saxony I was talking about are 2x3 widening of A1 Osnabrück-Münster and A7 Salzgitter-Göttingen (widening of last "3 sections" only). The latter is finally u/c. I don't know why but the pace is so damn slow for PPP..... I don't really know why....
> 
> 
> I think PPP is not as bad as politicians claim and media is repeating.


 :dunno:



MichiH said:


> Yep, the contract period will most likely begin on 1st May 2019 and the 2x3 widening - w/o any large bridge because they have been built in advance - should be done by the end of 2024 (5.5 years, not 4 years!). Preliminary works (clearance) was already done last winter and will be done this winter.


I think 2024 is the contractual maximum, right? I certainly hope they get it done earlier and cash in on some sweet early availability payments :lol:

By the way, it seems like it _is_ in some cases possible to do maintenace Netherland style in Germany as well (work 24 hours on the weekend only, the upper two layers of asphalt, not everything down to the sand and porous asphalt as a bonus). In this case the A9 just north of Munich a few years back: At 12:54 it becomes extremely satisfying :cheers:





They mention that that kind of maintenance costs 20% more than normal (which is completely worth it imo, especially in heavy traffic areas)


----------



## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> In the post before you said that the dutch company Chris and I were referring to, who got the PPP contract for A10/A24, were slowed down because of the "Mittelstand thing". You are confusing me because it directly contradicts what you write next:


I think you got me wrong. I never wrote anything directly refering to A10/A24 PPP.



TM_Germany said:


> Completely agree. It completely baffles me how so many Germans just accept the status quo as normal and don't ask why it is like that "Das ist halt so". Furthermore, it seems like none of the media or experts ever try to change that. Whenever I go around telling people how stupid German road construction is, they usually reply with something like "Well, we can't be as quick as China!" They are suprised when I say that just doing it like the Netherlands would be more than enough.


I fully agree! It's the same on the German Autobahn forum. Almost no one agrees to that fact. No discussion about it. Only general complaints about stupid authorities / Greens / nature conservation organizations / politicians / law (Verbandsklagerecht) et cetera.

NRW authorities talk about NL and compare their own pace to NL pace. I think it takes time till we might see any improvement. However, I really don't know what will happen once IGA will be repsonsible for all Autobahns from 2021. Will IGA have enough or even any employees? There is a lack of engineers and the German railroad authority pays higher salararies.

I thought that DEGES will be integrated into IGA but I according to this news article, almost all DEGES proprietor (Gesellschafter), especially NRW, Hesse, MV, SN, ST, TH, BB, don't wanna agree. Bavaria (non-DEGES proprietor) offers their employees to stay in state's authorities instead of changing to the federal authority. In general, almost all states fighted against IGA foundation. All states stay responsible for B roads (they could also give it to IGA, only Autobahns must go to IGA). I doubt that IGA will be successful.



TM_Germany said:


> I think 2024 is the contractual maximum, right?


The contract is still in negotiation. It should be awarded and signed in early 2019. We will see.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What are they doing on A24 as part of the A10/A24 PPP contract? They will widen A10, but evidently they are not going to widen A24, what else are they going to do there that requires years of construction? I drove on A24 a few years ago, it did not look so bad to me. On the other hand A24 closer to Hamburg has seen some bridge replacements (built in the 1980s, demolished in the 2010s).


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> What are they doing on A24 as part of the A10/A24 PPP contract? They will widen A10, but evidently they are not going to widen A24, what else are they going to do there that requires years of construction? I drove on A24 a few years ago, it did not look so bad to me. On the other hand A24 closer to Hamburg has seen some bridge replacements (built in the 1980s, demolished in the 2010s).


They will renew the entire carriageways from scratch and will enable shoulder running. The plan approval order was for a full 2x3 widening but afterwards(!) they (I don't know who, Federal Ministry of Transport or Bundesrechnungshof = Federal Court of Auditors?) recognized that the expected AADT is not high enough.

Frankly speaking: They spend almost the same money for pure bullshit! Maintaining the required shoulder running technic is more expensive than just having one lane more and if the carriageway must be renovated in the future, it's too narrow for six (or even four) lanes on a single carriageway.

The only advantage is that land usage is smaller. "Flächenverbrauch" is a big thing in Germany - not only by Green party!


----------



## TM_Germany

MichiH said:


> I think you got me wrong. I never wrote anything directly refering to A10/A24 PPP.
> 
> 
> 
> I fully agree! It's the same on the German Autobahn forum. Almost no one agrees to that fact. No discussion about it. Only general complaints about stupid authorities / Greens / nature conservation organizations / politicians / law (Verbandsklagerecht) et cetera.
> 
> NRW authorities talk about NL and compare their own pace to NL pace. I think it takes time till we might see any improvement. However, I really don't know what will happen once IGA will be repsonsible for all Autobahns from 2021. Will IGA have enough or even any employees? There is a lack of engineers and the German railroad authority pays higher salararies.
> 
> I thought that DEGES will be integrated into IGA but I according to this news article, almost all DEGES proprietor (Gesellschafter), especially NRW, Hesse, MV, SN, ST, TH, BB, don't wanna agree. Bavaria (non-DEGES proprietor) offers their employees to stay in state's authorities instead of changing to the federal authority. In general, almost all states fighted against IGA foundation. All states stay responsible for B roads (they could also give it to IGA, only Autobahns must go to IGA). I doubt that IGA will be successful.
> 
> 
> 
> The contract is still in negotiation. It should be awarded and signed in early 2019. We will see.


It is also worth mentioning that DEGES only has some 300 employees...
I really want to be hopeful. But it seems like we really need to have a couple of serious bridge collapses with multiple deaths for anything to change for the better... hno:



MichiH said:


> They will renew the entire carriageways from scratch and will enable shoulder running. The plan approval order was for a full 2x3 widening but afterwards(!) they (I don't know who, Federal Ministry of Transport or Bundesrechnungshof = Federal Court of Auditors?) recognized that the expected AADT is not high enough.
> 
> Frankly speaking: They spend almost the same money for pure bullshit! Maintaining the required shoulder running technic is more expensive than just having one lane more and if the carriageway must be renovated in the future, it's too narrow for six (or even four) lanes on a single carriageway.
> 
> The only advantage is that land usage is smaller. "Flächenverbrauch" is a big thing in Germany - not only by Green party!


What they did with A24 seriously makes me angry. They could have left it either as it was (the surface was quite good, as far as I know) or at least use the full planned potential. Now, they just build bullsh*t as you said.


----------



## MattiG

TM_Germany said:


> I could easily imagine PPPs were more expensive under normal circumstances, the companies' profits have to come from somewhere after all.


In the non-PPP model, there are no companies' profits? 

The cost structure is different, but in the longer run, the bottom-line benefits of the PPP model may exceed the drawbacks. It depens, of course, on how the contract is written. 

The PPP model has two main cristal clear benefits:

1) The quality incentive: Because the constructor company is responsible for maintenance, too, it is not beneficial to deliver bad quality. 

2) The works are not subject to the annual budgeting game of the politicians after the contract is signed. (This is the reason why politicians are reluctant to enter the PPP model.)

The PPP model saves a lot of public money for financing, project management and subcontracting. If these savings are counted as zero, then the model looks expensive. 

Most of the major road and rail investments have been run in the PPP mode in Finland during the last 20 years. Initially, the mode faced a lot of criticism, but nowadays it seems to be the default mode of operation.


----------



## cinxxx

If you ask me, someone who moved to Germany 7 years ago from a so called poor country, I see most Germans as very arrogant, believing to be the best in every field, thinking only their way is the best and making fun of everybody else. While most people are hard working (not necessarily the most productive), they live in their bubble where the state has to manage almost everything and to provide for them (which to some extend is good), but can't think outside all these regulations, that make everything so damn slow, but also perfect (in theory). But from my observation, it seems they like this slow pace, since everybody has work to do, some companies have contracts for the next 20 years, moving at their snail pace. It seems hurrying it up will not only disturb work/life balance (which is also very weird here), but also put a lot of pressure on finding new assignments. But imho, if they don't change this mindset it might catch up to them...


----------



## HarlingenHardest

*A94 Heldenstein*

Current situation of the A94 under construction near Heldenstein/Bavaria. 






Flying from the interchange Heldenstein in direction west.


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## MichiH

@cinxxx: I fully agree. That's exactly what I think about my company (more than 100,000 employees just in Germany). I guess you work in a big company too?
I think it's not a German problem but a general problem of big companies - all around the world. The bubble will explode one day...


----------



## cinxxx

MichiH said:


> @cinxxx: I fully agree. That's exactly what I think about my company (more than 100,000 employees just in Germany). I guess you work in a big company too?
> I think it's not a German problem but a general problem of big companies - all around the world. The bubble will explode one day...


I don't want to get too much into it since it's off-topic.

The company I work for is not so big and we also have many foreigner engineers, yet still. My stories are also based on what I hear from other friends and what my wife tells me after seeing many patients she being a medic.

Too often it's all about appearances...


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't agree that it's just a German thing. But yes, it's getting off-topic.


----------



## TM_Germany

next page...


----------



## TM_Germany

I don't believe we've had this map yet. It shows and lists all current and planned PPPs (Public Private Partnerships) in Germany:



Pink: "Pilot Projects", 1st generation of PPPs in Germany.
Black: 2nd generation, either u/c or completed
dashed: "New generation", the first project is u/c, the next ones will follow in the next years.
Green dots are other projects, usually tunnels. The green dot in south-western Germany (Albaufstieg) isn't persued as a PPP anymore.
Here is the file also as PDF

You can also see on the map, how many lanes a road has. Thin means 4, thick means 6 or more (much better visibly in the PDF in the link).
While the Autobahnen might be in a sorry state right now, Germany did manage to acquire a very sizable 2x3 network since the 90s, with continuous stretches of hundreds of kilometres. The above PPPs will greatly help in extending it further and closing holes in the network. I know Britain used to have the largest 2x3 network in Europe but I wouldn't be surprised if Germany overtook them by now.


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## ChrisZwolle

There are various forms of a PPP;

* availability payments: this is becoming the preferred method in much of Europe
* shadow toll payments: was used a lot during the 1990s and early 2000s. It is considered too risky for both the investor and government (lower/higher volumes than forecasted)
* truck toll payments: I think this model is only used in Germany

Then you have the more classic PPPs with regular tolls for every user, a system used across Europe as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

TM_Germany said:


> 1.5bn sounds really low. Are you sure those aren't just the tax contributions while most of the money comes from tolls? Italian roads always left me with a well maintained impression, at least surface wise (and except for the for some reason rusty crash barriers)


ANAS figures do not include money spent within concessions (i.e. most of the _autostrada _network, or 'megaprojects' like A2 (formerly A3) rehabilitation)


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## Suburbanist

What they need to do when tendering projects in Germany is to include fees for "renting out" closed highway capacity. This strongly discourages everlasting worksites, even more than add-on payments for advanced completion.


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## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> *Black*: 2nd generation, either u/c or completed


No.

A7 north of Hamburg: u/c, almost completed.
A1/A30 Osnabrück/Münster: Tender procedure was announced to be started in 2015/16 when the document was issued in early 2015. Last plan approval order (passed in June 2018) will be outlayed from tomorrow (what the hell have they done in the last months), tender procedure might be started anytime "soon" (or not)
A7 Salzgitter-Göttingen: u/c
A44 Kassel: nothing!
A9 Thuringia: completed
A61 Ludwigshafen: Building permit since spring 2018, economics calculation in progress
A6 Mannheim - Heilbronn: u/c, 2x3 from Spring 2019
A8 Ulm - Augsbrug: completed
A94 Pastetten - Heldenstein: u/c, to be completed in 2019


----------



## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> Yet the media only keeps reporting how there are "record sums" of money being invested in infrastructure. An even more direct comparison is NL to NRW (similar size, population, network length and age of motorways). NRW only got around 1.2bn€ in funding for federal roads and Autobahnen this year compared to the before mentioned 3bn in NL.


Another 43 million € for NRW federal road infrastructure budget! They already got additional 53 mllion € in September. That's 96 million € more than originally planned! It's much more than 1.3 billion € now! Only 1,251.6 million € were assigned to NRW for 2018 but it's 1,355.6 million € now! That's a record! It shows that the run-up works! NRW gets more money from federal budget because they are building faster!

The total budget of the NRW ministry of Transport will be 2,863 million € in 2019. It's about twice than the previous NRW government has spend on transportation infrastructure! A record of 98 million € will be spent for external planning ressources! The state's road authority will employ another 52 employees!

Source: Press release of NRW Ministry of Transport


Note: The additional budget comes from other state which cannot spend all the money they got from federal budget. NRW was a state which could not spend all the money in the past. It has obviously changed now.


----------



## TM_Germany

MichiH said:


> No.
> 
> A7 north of Hamburg: u/c, almost completed.
> A1/A30 Osnabrück/Münster: Tender procedure was announced to be started in 2015/16 when the document was issued in early 2015. Last plan approval order (passed in June 2018) will be outlayed from tomorrow (what the hell have they done in the last months), tender procedure might be started anytime "soon" (or not)
> A7 Salzgitter-Göttingen: u/c
> A44 Kassel: nothing!
> A9 Thuringia: completed
> A61 Ludwigshafen: Building permit since spring 2018, economics calculation in progress
> A6 Mannheim - Heilbronn: u/c, 2x3 from Spring 2019
> A8 Ulm - Augsbrug: completed
> A94 Pastetten - Heldenstein: u/c, to be completed in 2019


oops, sorry. I thought A1/A30 was already u/c. I thought A44 was just a "Betrieb" PPP (are they gonna widen that?) and then I didn't bother to check for A61 because it fit for the other ones. Thanks for correcting me.




MichiH said:


> Another 43 million € for NRW federal road infrastructure budget! They already got additional 53 mllion € in September. That's 96 million € more than originally planned! It's much more than 1.3 billion € now! Only 1,251.6 million € were assigned to NRW for 2018 but it's 1,355.6 million € now! That's a record! It shows that the run-up works! NRW gets more money from federal budget because they are building faster!
> 
> The total budget of the NRW ministry of Transport will be 2,863 million € in 2019. It's about twice than the previous NRW government has spend on transportation infrastructure! A record of 98 million € will be spent for external planning ressources! The state's road authority will employ another 52 employees!
> 
> Source: Press release of NRW Ministry of Transport


Exactly what I was talking about. I mean in this case it's a press release, not an article in the press, so it makes sense that they try to make it look as good as possible. But I'm sure none of the media will report on this and add for infortmations' sake, that those extra €€ is some nice sugar but it won't be enough to make a noticeable difference to the (sour) cake.




MichiH said:


> Note: The additional budget comes from other state which cannot spend all the money they got from federal budget. NRW was a state which could not spend all the money in the past. It has obviously changed now.


I think there was only one year where NRW couldn't spend everything. I have the feeling that of all the states, NRW is the one that's trying to improve the most. I remember that they send a delegation to NL some time back and tried to implement a couple pages of their playbook as well. Too little, too late probably but I don't think any other state is working as hard to improve their planning capacity and construction efforts more than NRW. Maybe I have a too incomplete picture of it but could it be that NRW also has the best pavement conditions in Germany? I at least remember that it is much better on the A3 than in Hessen and RP, same goes for A61. Much less patchwork in my experience. All the other Autobahnen I've driven in NRW (A4 south and west of Cologne, A44 near Düsseldorf) had good surfaces as well.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TM_Germany said:


> Exactly what I was talking about. I mean in this case it's a press release, not an article in the press, so it makes sense that they try to make it look as good as possible. But I'm sure none of the media will report on this and add for infortmations' sake, that those extra €€ is some nice sugar but it won't be enough to make a noticeable difference to the (sour) cake.


In my experience in the Netherlands, journalists basically copy everything from a press release and just rewrite it slightly so it isn't a carbon copy. It's basically the kind of work an unpaid intern can do. 

And if they want another opinion, they call up their token commentator or party member for some comments. In the Netherlands it's very clear that most of the commentary by "experts" is just from the same one guy. It's just lazy-ass reporting, you always get the same stories and opinions. No wonder trust in the media is at an all time low. hno:


----------



## MichiH

Koesj said:


> @MichiH or some other knowledgeable poster: what's the deal with this news on the 'Planning Acceleration Act'? Lots of people are unhappy with it if you follow the hashtag from that tweet..


Only little tweaks and not much different to the past. For instance, there were a lot of projects which can only be challenged at the highest court. They only updated the list with new projects after ages.... Don't expect seeing any major improvemnent  It's just politics...


----------



## Surel

Bad Oeynhausen (A30) is going to get opened on Thursday!!!! Even the Dutch media have a story on this.










https://nos.nl/artikel/2262077-laatste-zeven-stoplichten-tussen-amsterdam-en-berlijn-verdwijnen.html

The last missing piece of Motorway between NL and Prague :cheers::cheers:


----------



## Don Alessandro

^^ Unbelievable.

How many years of construction?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

22 October 2008 - 6 December 2018.

Almost 5 years behind schedule. During the starting ceremony, they said it would be completed in 5.5 years (which means April 2014).


----------



## MattiG

Surel said:


> Bad Oeynhausen (A30) is going to get opened on Thursday!!!! Even the Dutch media have a story on this.
> 
> The last missing piece of Motorway between NL and Prague :cheers::cheers:


Oh, what happened? The Germans speculated last year that the road most probably will not be opened by the end of 2018, and perhaps not in 2019 either.


----------



## henmar

The local newspaper published a list of everything that went wrong during construction -
https://www.nw.de/lokal/kreis_herfo...ten-Pech-und-Pannen-bei-der-Nordumgehung.html

It's a very long list... - try Google translate.


----------



## Wilhem275

I remember this was one of the first projects I read about when I joined SSC... some 12 years ago :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I wonder what led to all these construction and planning errors. Lack of oversight / management? Too many construction companies so no-one feels responsible for the end product? Of course this type of contracts doesn't have real incentives for quality and fast construction. 

The planned 5.5 years for construction could be considered generous. Elsewhere such a project may be completed in 3 years. In fact most of the large civil engineering objects (tunnel & bridges) were completed in a reasonably short time. The Werre bridges were completed years ago. 

I visited the construction site in March 2014 - almost 5 years ago.

A30 Bad Oeynhausen Werrebrücke 2014-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

I also went there in 2009:


A30 Bad Oeynhausen-8 by European Roads, on Flickr


A30 Bad Oeynhausen-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Kreuz Aachen*

The reconstruction of Kreuz Aachen (A4, A44, A544) is another example of an extremely delayed project.

Construction began in June 2009, at that time it was reported to be completed by 2014.

_Erst im Jahr 2014 soll soll das Aachener Kreuz komplett fertig sein._

>> https://www.aachener-nachrichten.de/nrw-region/aachener-kreuz-umbau-geht-los_aid-27374865

However, 4 years later it is still not completed, and while Straßen NRW reports that the reconstruction is "on schedule", it is now planned to be completed in the spring of 2021. That is almost 7 years behind schedule, and a total construction time of 11.5 years! :nuts:

_Die Arbeiten am gesamten Autobahnkreuz liegen im Zeitplan und werden voraussichtlich im Frühjahr 2021 abgeschlossen._

>> https://www.strassen.nrw.de/de/pres...-bruecke-im-autobahnkreuz-aachen-beginnt.html


----------



## Surel

ChrisZwolle said:


> ...
> I visited the construction site in March 2014 - almost 5 years ago.


I will miss this gas station in Bad Oeynhausen, a regular stop en route through Germany.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> The reconstruction of Kreuz Aachen (A4, A44, A544) is another example of an extremely delayed project.
> 
> Construction began in June 2009, at that time it was reported to be completed by 2014.
> 
> _Erst im Jahr 2014 soll soll das Aachener Kreuz komplett fertig sein._
> 
> >> https://www.aachener-nachrichten.de/nrw-region/aachener-kreuz-umbau-geht-los_aid-27374865
> 
> However, 4 years later it is still not completed, and while Straßen NRW reports that the reconstruction is "on schedule", it is now planned to be completed in the spring of 2021. That is almost 7 years behind schedule, and a total construction time of 11.5 years! :nuts:


Quite hard to understand. Even if most of the junction will be rebuilt, most of the site lies in the middle of an open field. A lot of space there to make temporary arrangements.

It is hard to not compare to what happens on my daily commuting route: There is an ongoing site to rebuild the first 2 km of the west end of the Ring 1 of Helsinki. The road will be sunk into a tunnel, two new junctions to be built, one existing junction to be expanded, everything happens on a very narrow land stripe between homes and the most exclusive office area in the region, an underground lines is being built in the same place in the same time, and the traffic on one of the busiest road in Finland must go on.

There has been about half a dozen temporary routes of the main roads during the construction, and more will come. The traffic has flown amazingly well without major delays and accidents.

The construction begun in March 2016, and all the new routes are expected to be open to public in late 2019, after about *three and half years*. The project is on schedule.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The opening ceremony of A30 at Bad Oeynhausen today:


----------



## Luki_SL

^^ It looks like all residents of the city have come on the opening


----------



## RipleyLV

^^ 10 years worth the wait. :lol:


----------



## g.spinoza

I guess the people who put up those banners Chris showed were not present


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> However, 4 years later it is still not completed, and while Straßen NRW reports that the reconstruction is "on schedule", it is now planned to be completed in the spring of 2021. That is almost 7 years behind schedule, and a total construction time of 11.5 years! :nuts:
> 
> _Die Arbeiten am gesamten Autobahnkreuz liegen im Zeitplan und werden voraussichtlich im Frühjahr 2021 abgeschlossen._


I thought about that in the past weeks. Why the hell do German authorities always claim that the projects are "on schedule". I think it might be very simple. Germans do usually not contract one company or consortium with the whole execution of a project but make many tenders. The groundbreaking ceremonies when "estimated completion dates" are published, are usually before the contracts are signed or even before most tenders are started. The "on schedule" announcements are usually according to contract deadlines and these are mostly fulfilled. And if there's some unexpected trouble, new deadlines are agreed which are also usually fulfilled again.

It's not a fault of the companies nor the road authority but of the system itself is just wrong! And media doesn't really care.... Sometimes local media is reporting, see A30 news article posted by henmar, but it's not a general outcry by nationwide media nor people. I'd love to see something like the yellow vests movement in France (except of the vandalism). I've been to France in the past weeks (traveling a lot on (blocked) motorways in the south) and I've only seen kind and friendly people everywhere.


----------



## flapane

I don't see a link between being friendly, respecting the deadlines, and the yellow jackets, but I guess it's just me. 
At least the petrol prices dropped, in the last couple of weeks, so the chances are lower.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A98 Dreieck Hochrhein*

Talking about a slow project... The first stage of A98 east of the Hochrhein interchange near Rheinfelden.

Construction began in March 2009 but there were frequent breaks in construction. The bridge of the interchange was built in 2009-2010 and may be unused for 10 years. That's a substantial portion of its lifespan lost without providing any economic value. 

The last I've read was an opening in late 2020, perhaps that's outdated by now...


----------



## Suburbanist

Unused road bridges suffer very little wear and tear.


----------



## MattiG

Suburbanist said:


> Unused road bridges suffer very little wear and tear.


The impact of weather is there, regardless if the bridge is in use or not. And that impact is not minimal.

It is not wise to invest into nothing either.


----------



## MichiH

*A24 non-widening*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisZwolle said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are they doing on A24 as part of the A10/A24 PPP contract? They will widen A10, but evidently they are not going to widen A24, what else are they going to do there that requires years of construction? I drove on A24 a few years ago, it did not look so bad to me. On the other hand A24 closer to Hamburg has seen some bridge replacements (built in the 1980s, demolished in the 2010s).
> 
> 
> 
> They will renew the entire carriageways from scratch and will enable shoulder running. The plan approval order was for a full 2x3 widening but afterwards(!) they (I don't know who, Federal Ministry of Transport or Bundesrechnungshof = Federal Court of Auditors?) recognized that the expected AADT is not high enough.
> Frankly speaking: They spend almost the same money for pure bullshit! Maintaining the required shoulder running technic is more expensive than just having one lane more and if the carriageway must be renovated in the future, it's too narrow for six (or even four) lanes on a single carriageway.
> 
> The only advantage is that land usage is smaller. "Flächenverbrauch" is a big thing in Germany - not only by Green party!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And exactly the Green party is now officially asking the Federal Ministry of Transport why they don't widen A24... https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/-/580030 The Ministry must answer by law within 2 weeks but it usually takes one or two month till a preliminary answer is published...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Auf welcher rechtlichen Grundlage erfolgt der vom Planfeststellungsbeschluss von 2011 abweichende Ausbau der A 24 und was sind die Gründe dafür?
> 6. Auf welchen Untersuchungen, Gutachten und/oder Studien zum Verkehrsaufkommen, zur Leistungsfähigkeit der Straßenabschnitte, zum Verkehrsfluss, zur Verkehrssteuerung, zum Stauaufkommen und zum Unfallgeschehen beruht die Entscheidung, die A 24 im Bereich Kremmen und Fehrbellin/dem Dreieck Wittstock – entgegen dem gültigen Planfeststellungsbeschluss aus dem Jahre 2011 – lediglich mit einem breiteren, befahrbaren Standstreifen und Wechselsignalbrücken auszubauen (Bitte alle Untersuchungen, Gutachten und Studien tabellarisch mit Beauftragungsdatum, Projektabschluss, Projektvolumen und durchführender Institution auflisten)?
> 7. Durch wen wurde wann entschieden, entgegen dem Planfeststellungsbeschluss eine abweichende Baumaßnahme beim Projekt A24 umzusetzen, welche lokalen Akteure (Bürgermeister, Gemeinderäte, Landrat, Landkreis, Kreistage) und welche Betroffenen wurden in welche Form in diese Entscheidung einbezogen?
> 8. Bei welchen Ausbauvorhaben im Bundesautobahnnetz ist eine ähnliche abweichende Realisierung vorgesehen, das heißt statt einem sechsspurigen Ausbau eine Ausbau des Seitenstreifens?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Based on which law? Why? Based on which studies? Who has decided? Have there been any similar decisions for other projects before?
Click to expand...

The answer of the Federal Ministry of Transport: https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/-/583000



> Wieso der als ÖPP-Projekt (Öffentlich-Private Partnerschaft) durchgeführte Ausbau der Bundesautobahn A24 statt mit dem im Planfeststellungsbeschluss von 2011 geplanten sechsstreifigen Vollausbau im Teilabschnitt zwischen Fehrbellin und Kremmen lediglich mit einem verbreiterten befahrbaren Standstreifen erfolgt, erläutert die Bundesregierung in ihrer Antwort (19/6012) auf eine Kleine Anfrage der Fraktion Bündnis 90/Die Grünen (19/5690). In der Antwort heißt es, die für die A24 prognostizierte Verkehrsbelastung erfordere keinen sechsstreifigen Vollausbau.
> 
> Das dem Stand der Technik entsprechende und somit den Ausbauplanungen zugrunde zu legende Regelwerk (Richtlinien für die Anlage von Autobahnen - RAA) gebe als Einsatzbereich für vierstreifige Autobahnquerschnitte Verkehrsstärken von bis zu rund 70.000 Kfz/24 h an. Die vergangenen Prognosen hätten diesen Wert nie erreicht, weder die von 2006 für 2015 (rund 60.000 Kfz/24 h) noch die Projektprognose aus 2009 für 2020 (rund 50.000 Kfz/24 h). Die Prognose für 2025 (42.000 - 45.000 Kfz/24 h) und die aktuelle Zielnetzprognose des Bundes aus 2018 für 2030 (40.000 - 45.000 Kfz/24 h) bestätigten die Richtigkeit der Entscheidung für den gewählten Ausbaustandard, schreibt die Regierung.
> 
> Auf die Frage, durch wen und wann entschieden wurde, "entgegen dem Planfeststellungsbeschluss, eine abweichende Baumaßnahme beim Projekt A 24 umzusetzen", antwortet die Regierung: "Im Ergebnis der Untersuchung mehrerer Varianten bei der Projektentwicklung haben Bund und Land im Sommer 2014 den Projektzuschnitt abschließend vereinbart." Die Grunderneuerung mit anschließender Ausstattung mit temporärer Seitenstreifenfreigabe werde als Einzelfalllösung mit Blick auf die spezifische örtliche und verkehrliche Situation des Teilabschnitts zwischen Fehrbellin und Kremmen verfolgt, heißt es in der Antwort.


2x2 is adequate for AADT up to 70,000 vehicles/day (state of the art) and A24 AADT prediction is just 40,000-45,000 vehicles/day in 2030. The Federal Ministry of Transport and the state of Brandenburg (or its Ministry of Transport) have agreed in summer 2014 to change the project layout ("Projektzuschnitt") - they don't say according to which law, just that it's "state of the art". There will be shoulder running only.


----------



## TM_Germany

Then they shouldn't have done anything at all. A24 was fine as it was, including its condition. Reconstructing it and adding shoulder-running only costs money for nothing. 

Here is a video of that particular stretch. Can anybody spot a need for reconstruction there? Looks very fine to me. 






Also, since when is 70,000 considered the limit for 4 lanes? I only ever heard of 60,000.


----------



## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> Also, since when is 70,000 considered the limit for 4 lanes? I only ever heard of 60,000.


For 2x3 construction, 60,000 vehicles/day is the minimum predicted AADT. I guess 70,000 could be the maximum predicted AADT which still allows 2x2 according to the state of the art :dunno:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

With 60,000 being the threshold for 2x3 in Germany, you could widen almost the entire Dutch motorway network 

The highest count I've seen for 2x2 in the Netherlands is in the 110,000 range. Needless to say, it was severely congested. It depends on the hourly volumes, but those figures aren't as widely available as daily traffic volumes. In my experience, motorways over 70,000 vehicles per day on 2x2 lanes start to clog up, but it depends on truck volumes how bad it is. 

If you want to preserve a level of service A/B on intercity corridor (free-flow all the time) you need 2x3 from 60,000 vehicles per day. Though if the cost is exorbitant, it could be stretched to 80,000 or even more, especially in urban areas or on short stretches.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The highest count I've seen for 2x2 in the Netherlands is in the 110,000 range.


I think the German maximum is about 100,000.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The opening ceremony of A30 at Bad Oeynhausen today:


The opening ceremony took place but the opening itself should be as follows:



MichiH said:


> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to 9th December 2018) [1st c/w; direction Osnabrück] – project – map
> *A30:* AS Dehme – AS Bad Oeynhausen-East 1.9km (September 2008 to 9th December 2018) [1st c/w; direction Osnabrück] – project – map


To be opened today. Sunday was chosen because there's no truck traffic.



MichiH said:


> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to 15th/16th December 2018) [1st c/w; direction Hannover] – project – map
> *A30:* AS Dehme – AS Bad Oeynhausen-East 1.9km (September 2008 to 15th/16th December 2018) [2nd c/w; direction Hannover] – project – map


It's reported to be opened 2 weeks later. I guess it means that it will also be opened on Sunday. 23rd December now.



MichiH said:


> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to Summer 2019) [2nd c/w] [discontinuation: 1.4km] – project – map


Traffic is lead 2x2 on the 1st carriageway with narrow lanes on this stretch now.

Total construction costs are 231 million €.

Sources: Straßen.NRW press release and NDR TV.







MichiH said:


> *B33:* AS Allensbach-West – east of AS Allensbach-West 1.2km (November 2015 to Late November 2018) [2nd c/w] – project – map


To be opened 4-laned on 11th December 2018. Source.







MichiH said:


> *B101:* AS Thyrow – AS Trebbin-North 5.0km (May 2015 to December 2018) – project – map


To be opened on 14th December 2018. Source.







MichiH said:


> *A33:* AS Halle – Halle-Künsebeck 4.0km (December 2012 to December 2018) – project – map


Construction works will be done by 22nd December 2018 but the section will be opened in Mid January 2019 for administrative reasons (Christmas period is holiday time). Source.

The last A33 section b/n Osnabrück and Bielefeld and the second to last section of Osnabrück bypass (including of a short B51 section) are planned to be opened by the end of 2019:



MichiH said:


> *B51:* north of Belm – AS Belm (A33) 4.5km (February 2015 to Late 2019) – project – map
> *A33:* AS Belm (B51) – south of AS Osnabrück-Schinkel 2.2km (February 2015 to Late 2019) – project – map
> *A33:* AS Borgholzhausen – AS Halle 8.6km (December 2012 to Late 2019) – project – map


The last A33 section from A1 to Belm is still far away from being constructed.







MichiH said:


> *B10:* west of AS Neu-Ulm-Finningen – east of AS Nersingen (A7) 5.5km (May 2018 to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map


To be completed by late 2022 or early 2023. Bridge construction is in progress, construction of the carriageway will be started in late 2019. Source.





First construction works (not just clearance) is executed on the last A72 section 5.2. You can see pics from November here: http://www.verkehr.sachsen.de/14290.html

















We can call it "under construction":

*A72:* AS Rötha – AK Leipzig (A38) 7.2km (Fall 2018 to Late 2026) – project – map

It replaces the 2x2 motorway-like Bundesstraße.

Reminder: A72 was planned to be completed before the 2006 FIFA World Cup in Germany. It won't be in service for the UEFA Euro 2024.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B51 Belm*

Google Earth has new satellite imagery of B51 at Belm (near Osnabrück) from July 2018.










1. The entire project









2. There is no clear preparation for the A33 extension to A1, but the viaduct is extra wide, perhaps it will be a split interchange?









3. 









4. Connection to B51 north of Belm.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Google Earth has new satellite imagery of B51 at Belm (near Osnabrück) from July 2018.
> 2. There is no clear preparation for the A33 extension to A1, but the viaduct is extra wide, perhaps it will be a split interchange?


No, full interchange:




 




The videos are from 2017, the preliminary planning was approved by the Federal Ministry of Transport in March 2018 (Gesehenvermerk). Next step is preparation of plan approval procedure documents and the procedure itself.


The project page is frequently updated (last update 29th November 2018) and describes the alignment as follows:



> *Beschreibung der Neubautrasse*
> Die Neubautrasse der A 33 schließt im Süden an die geplante neue Ortsumgehung Belm im Zuge der A 33/ B 51n an. Die Ortsumgehung wird am derzeitigen nördlichen Ende der A 33 an der Unterführung Gretescher Weg beginnen und unterquert die B 51alt. Anschließend überquert die Ortsumgehung Belm die Bahnlinie Wanne-Eickel – Bremen, um dann nahezu parallel zur Bahn in östlicher Richtung zu verlaufen. Nach nochmaliger Querung der Bahnlinie wird sie dann im Osten der Gemeinde Belm in den alten Verlauf der B 51 Richtung Bohmte wieder einschwenken.
> *Der Neubau der A 33 zur A 1 beginnt unmittelbar nördlich der vorgenannten ersten Kreuzung mit der Bahnlinie und ist bei den Planungen für die Ortsumgehung Belm bereits entsprechend berücksichtigt worden. * Die Trasse verläuft rund 9 km in nördlicher und nordwestlicher Richtung und schließt nördlich von Wallenhorst an die A 1 an. Die Zweckmäßigkeit einer Anschlussstelle an der kreuzenden Landesstraße 109 (Wallenhorst – Vehrte) wird geprüft.
> Die A 33 ist in diesem Abschnitt als zweibahniger Neubau mit zwei Richtungsfahrstreifen und je einem Seitenstreifen vorgesehen.


A33 connects to the planned* Belm bypass A33/B51n. The bypass begins at the current end of A33. It crosses the railway and follows parallel to the east. After crossing the railway again it meets the old B51 east of Belm.
*The new A33 connection to A1 begins directly after the before-mentioned first crossing of the railway and is already considered in the planning of the Belm bypass.* The route leads 9km to the north / northwest and connects to A1 north of Wallenhorst. It must be checked whether an interchange at L109 is necessary.
A33 will have two carriageways with 2 lanes plus emergency lane per direction.

*u/c 2015-2019

I cannot see how the future interchange was considered in the planning of the u/c Belm bypass hno:


----------



## Luki_SL

A few days since the opening has passed and there is no Bad Oeynhausen bypass on  Google Maps.


----------



## henmar

Luki_SL said:


> A few days since the opening has passed and there is no Bad Oeynhausen bypass on  Google Maps.




On Thursday was only the official ceremony. The road itself was opened today at around 11 a.m. (direction Amsterdam only). But yeah, Google always takes a few days to update its maps.


----------



## MichiH

^^ A news article and a video (in German) describe and show what happened today: https://www.westfalen-blatt.de/OWL/...t-Videos-Der-Verkehr-rollt-auf-der-neuen-A-30


----------



## tunnel owl

TM_Germany said:


> Here is a video of that particular stretch. Can anybody spot a need for reconstruction there? Looks very fine to me.



To my knowledge it was a kind of compromise because Brandenburg-county wanted the 2x3 extension between Dreieck Havelland and Neuruppin-Süd on A24, together with the widening of northern A10 up to 2x3 lanes. It turned out that the average daily traffic is around 45.000 on A24 even in future and 2x3 for this wasn´t on the list of federal BVWP-projects. But during rush-hours commuters clog this stretch and they decided to expand the hard-shoulder in order to be a time-limited third lane. And yes, the overall condition is ok.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Tribsees*

The new bridge on A20 rocks hard. They tuned "We Will Rock You" to it. :lol:


__
http://instagr.am/p/p%2FBqzgMtZnE4h/


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The opening ceremony of A30 at Bad Oeynhausen today:


Will the short stretch that goes into the town be renumbered?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I assume it will become B61. They plan to narrow the 4 lane road through Bad Oeynhausen to 2 lanes. I wonder if that's a good idea given that it will remain the main collector road for traffic in Bad Oeynhausen and the amount of retail along it.


----------



## snowdog

ChrisZwolle said:


> I assume it will become B61. They plan to narrow the 4 lane road through Bad Oeynhausen to 2 lanes. I wonder if that's a good idea given that it will remain the main collector road for traffic in Bad Oeynhausen and the amount of retail along it.


Pfft, morons hno:.

New infrastructure should never mean to destroy/downgrade existing infrastructure, it should complement it.

Oh well, at least finally though!


----------



## g.spinoza

Maybe they fear people will continue to use the old road instead of the longer detour of the new motorway.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ seems kind of a waste to build a motorway if it isn't better enough to use than the old road...


----------



## MattiG

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ seems kind of a waste to build a motorway if it isn't better enough to use than the old road...


It would be not the first time in the (old) world to downgrade such roads in order to calm down the traffic flow. Having as many lanes as possible is not a value as such.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Tribsees*

A20 has reopened!










>> https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/meck...uecke-wird-heute-freigegeben,tribsees188.html


----------



## TM_Germany

If I understood correctly, that's just a temporary bridge and they will completely rebuild that section with two permanent bridges and 4 lanes, right?


----------



## HarlingenHardest

*A30 Nordumgehung Bad Oeynhausen bypass*

Last week on Thursday (06/12 or 12/06) I went to Bad Oeynhausen to experience the official opening. I made 120 pics that day, unfortunately some are not sharp/out of focus/foggy probably due to various reasons, but I did my best to make an impression of this happening.

You can find my photos here: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/krusefahrer/albums/72157704561050925


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The opening of A30 in the direction of Hannover has been expedited, it will open to traffic tomorrow instead of in 2 weeks, according to Straßen.NRW. They say it will open late afternoon.

>> https://www.strassen.nrw.de/de/pres...-zwischen-loehne-und-bad-oeynhausen-nord.html

They say "Bad Oeynhausen-Nord", but I assume they mean Bad Oeynhausen-Ost? Or maybe they already opened the Bad Oeynhausen-Nord to Bad Oeynhausen-Ost section?


----------



## henmar

ChrisZwolle said:


> They say "Bad Oeynhausen-Nord", but I assume they mean Bad Oeynhausen-Ost? Or maybe they already opened the Bad Oeynhausen-Nord to Bad Oeynhausen-Ost section?


Correct, Nord to Ost in direction Hannover was already opened on Sunday.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Nordrhein-Westfalen*

The bridge saga continues:

Zwei Drittel der 1119 Autobahnbrücken in NRW müssen ersetzt werden.​
Two-thirds of the 1119 motorway bridges in North Rhine Westphalia must be replaced.

According to this paywalled article: https://www.ksta.de/region/marode-b...schaden-richtet-ein-einzelner-lkw-an-31729070

That means that some 750 motorway bridges need to be torn down. :nuts:

I think that means that basically anything from before 1975/1980 will be demolished. Why did they built these bridges with such an inferior design? I mean, bridge replacements are common in almost every country, but the scale on which this happens in Germany is just astounding. No other country comes close to the amount of bridge replacements as they have in Germany.


----------



## hjf

ChrisZwolle said:


> The bridge saga continues:
> 
> Zwei Drittel der 1119 Autobahnbrücken in NRW müssen ersetzt werden.​
> [...] Why did they built these bridges with such an inferior design? I mean, bridge replacements are common in almost every country, but the scale on which this happens in Germany is just astounding. No other country comes close to the amount of bridge replacements as they have in Germany.


Amateur opinion only:
One reason to contribute to the large amount of bridges to be replaced is the use of salt in winter. It was only after the snowstorm in 1978/79 that preventive salting became the norm. As the design of the bridges at that time mostly used pre-stressed concrete (hence the need for steel reinforcement in the bridge structure) and the effect of corrosion on these reinforcing structures was yet largely unknown, these bridges are prone to early fatigue. This being said I think (my memory or my impression) that salt had been used in very large quantities in the 80s because dry salt was used mostly which was quickly removed by tires from the surface which in turn required quick turnaround times for the road to be salted again. This is much better these days with salted solutions being applied.

My daughter is studying civil engineering and it is only now that corrosion effects on reinforcement structures and investigations into possible alternatives are being studied in depth. The group at the University she is with, is about to start a project to use shape memory alloys as reinforcement fibres in concrete and thus eliminating the issue of corrosion of iron based steel reinforcements. But this seems a long way to go yet. 

So I guess, the level of knowledge back in the 60s was just not adequate to assess the future impact of salt combined with increasing traffic volumes. This is likely to be one reason why those bridges better be replaced in the near future. Same story for A7 Kassel-Würzburg and A45 (numbers are possibly included in the NRW figures).

Amateur opinion only.

Best
hjf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Interesting. I wonder why it doesn't affect bridges to such an extent elsewhere in Europe though.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Interesting. I wonder why it doesn't affect bridges to such an extent elsewhere in Europe though.


In Italy preventive salting is used only if snow alert is issued, so not that often. Bridges over here come down for other reasons.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The bridge saga continues:
> Zwei Drittel der 1119 Autobahnbrücken in NRW müssen ersetzt werden.​Two-thirds of the 1119 motorway bridges in North Rhine Westphalia must be replaced.



I think 100% of all motorway bridges must be replaced (one day). The news article is limited and I cannot read it. Must 2/3 of the bridges be replaced in 2019 or 2019-2049 or whatever? This kind of news must always be read with a grain of salt.


----------



## MattiG

hjf said:


> Amateur opinion only:
> One reason to contribute to the large amount of bridges to be replaced is the use of salt in winter.


Sounds a little bit straightforward analysis.

Salt, of course, is a significant factor. But if the condition of a bridge at the age of 35-50 years is so bad that the demolition is the only option, something has gone severely wrong.

Finland uses much more salt for de-icing per kilometer than Germany. Still, the typical lifecycle of bridges is much more than 35-50 years. The target is 100 years for concrete and steel bridges, and 50 years for wooden ones and steel underground tunnels.

The superstructure of the bridge should be safe from salt if the water insulation and drainage has been done correctly. The exception is the side beam, which is subject to regular reparations.

There are the Finnish targets for the repair cycle of certain components, delivered as a planning guideline (crossposting part of a earlier post in the Dutch thread):


25 years for edge beams on salted roads
40 years for edge beams on non-salted roads
35 years for water insulation
25 years for movement joints
25 years for non-paved wooden coating of the deck
25 years for painting of steel structures
15 years for painting or other coating of concrete structures

As the table shows, the bridges need regular maintenance. The most massive structures are like cathedrals: There is always some maintenance ongoing.

Not all bridges have met the 100-year target. The two notable cases are two of those six big suspension bridges built in 1960's. The traffic volumes are several times higher than it was projected at the date of planning. The maximum weight of trucks have tripled since the early 1960's. A suspension bridge as a flexible structure is subject to steel fatigue because of vibration. I believe that such an increase on traffic volumes is one of the root causes in Germany, too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MattiG said:


> I believe that such an increase on traffic volumes is one of the root causes in Germany, too.


It is almost always cited by German engineers in the media. Though other countries have seen a similar development in the weight and volume of trucks.

Switzerland was one of the last countries in Europe to significantly increase the gross weight limit for trucks, it was 28 tons until 2001 and 40 tons since 2005. They also cited a possible reduction of the lifespan of bridges built before 1970.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> It is almost always cited by German engineers in the media. Though other countries have seen a similar development in the weight and volume of trucks.
> 
> Switzerland was one of the last countries in Europe to significantly increase the gross weight limit for trucks, it was 28 tons until 2001 and 40 tons since 2005. They also cited a possible reduction of the lifespan of bridges built before 1970.


Such a development seldom is a result from one single root cause. Other way round, equal root causes usually make different development, dependent on other root causes.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Switzerland was one of the last countries in Europe to significantly increase the gross weight limit for trucks, it was 28 tons until 2001 and 40 tons since 2005.


The total weight is not important but the weight per axle.


----------



## MichiH

MattiG said:


> bridges need regular maintenance.


Germany didn't make a good job here in the past decades. Germany was focused on renewing former GDR road infrastructure in 1990s and was focused on saving money in 2000s (reducing number of employees in road authorities et cetera).


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> The total weight is not important but the weight per axle.



Total weight definitely is important when discussing bridges. Most of fatigue comes from vibration and most of vibration comes from a heavy vehicle entering and driving on bridge. The span of the bridge carries the entire mass of the vehicle. 

For the road structure your statement is correct. In addition, overloads are fatal, because the impact is proportional to the fourth power of the axle load. 44 tons on four axles make about the same impact as 60 tons on six axles.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B33:* AS Allensbach-West – east of AS Allensbach-West 1.2km (November 2015 to 11th December 2018) [2nd c/w] – project – map





MichiH said:


> To be opened 4-laned on 11th December 2018. Source.


It was opened Tuesday morning. Source




MichiH said:


> *B101:* AS Thyrow – AS Trebbin-North 5.0km (May 2015 to 14th December 2018) – project – map





MichiH said:


> To be opened on 14th December 2018. Source.


The opening ceremony took place on Friday (Source) but I'm not 100% sure that the road is really in service. According to the mayor (Video) remaining works will take some weeks or even months according to construction companies. However, Local news show pics with captions "open for traffic" and "remaining works till Christmas". The pics also show cars driving on the bypass.




MichiH said:


> *A33:* AS Halle – Halle-Künsebeck 4.0km (December 2012 to Mid January 2019) – project – map





MichiH said:


> Construction works will be done by 22nd December 2018 but the section will be opened in Mid January 2019 for administrative reasons (Christmas period is holiday time). Source.


To be opened on 11th January 2019. Source.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Trouble on A5 last night. A drunk truck driver from Ukraine drove across the motorway for a long time, driving police cars off the road and driving full speed across a rest area.

Fearing the trucker would crash into a traffic jam farther down the road, they decided to put up a road block with trucks from the nearby road maintenance center. The trucker drove full speed into it. He was taken to hospital, had 2.3 promille of alcohol. Several empty vodka bottles were found in the truck. They found IDs from a different person in the truck. 










>> https://www.hessenschau.de/panorama...krachen,unfall-lkw-seeheim-jugenheim-100.html


----------



## Luki_SL

ChrisZwolle said:


> They found IDs from a different person in the truck.
> 
> 
> 
> >> https://www.hessenschau.de/panorama...krachen,unfall-lkw-seeheim-jugenheim-100.html


They found IDs from a different person, but no one else in the truck ? :nuts:


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## MichiH

Luki_SL said:


> They found IDs from a different person, but no one else in the truck ? :nuts:





> Erste Angaben, wonach der Mann 37 Jahre alt sei, revidierte die Polizei später. Persönliche Dokumente, die im Führerhaus gefunden wurden, gehörten nicht dem Fahrer. Die Polizei vermutet, dass er aus der Ukraine stammt und deutlich über 40 Jahre alt ist. Es gebe aber derzeit keine Hinweise, dass der Lkw gestohlen sei, so die Polizei.


They found an ID of a 37yrs. old man but the driver is a different person much older than 40 and likely Ukrainian. There's no indicator that the truck was stolen.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Projects appear and disappear from the PPP list without any reason. Here you can find the May 2017 and the April 2018 lists. A44 has disappeared.


It seems that A44 west of Kassel is still planned to get a PPP concessor and that the map is right:



TM_Germany said:


> I don't believe we've had this map yet. It shows and lists all current and planned PPPs (Public Private Partnerships) in Germany:


Answer of Federal Ministry of Transport from December 2018 to an inquiry: http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/063/1906307.pdf

PPP in force (A mode):

A1 AK Bremen – AD Buchholz
A4 Herleshausen (LGr. TH/HE) – Gotha 
A5 AS Offenburg – Malsch
A8 Augsburg/West – München/Allach
A8 Ulm/Elchingen – Augsburg/West


PPP in force (V mode):

A6 AS Wiesloch/Rauenberg – AK Weinsberg
A7 AD Hamburg-NW – AD Bordesholm
A7 AS Göttingen – AS Bockenem
A9 LGr. TH/BY – AS Lederhose
A10/A24 AS Neuruppin – AD Pankow (Ministry is wrong, contract was signed in early 2018)
A94 Forstinning – Marktl

There's a table on page 3. If I get it right, 4.9% of the Autobahn network do have PPP concession.


Projects in preparation (V mode):

A1/A30 Münster – AK Lotte/Osnabrück – Rheine-Nord
A3 AK Fürth/Erlangen – AK Biebelried (in tender procedure)
A49 AD Ohmtal (A5) – AS Fritzlar
A61 LGr. RP/BW – Worms


Projects in preparation (E mode):

A4 AS Bucha – AS Gotha


Further projects in early stage:

A6 AK Weinsberg – AK Feuchtwangen/Crailsheim
A8 Rosenheim – border to Austria
A20 River Elbe tunnel
A26 Hamburg (A1) – Rübke
A44 Diemelstadt – AD Kassel-Süd
A57 AK Köln/Nord – AK Moers


For any reason, B247 and B402/B213/B72 are not listed. The document is about "Bundesfernstraßen" (Federal roads) which comprise Autobahns and Bundesstraßen. The map indicates these projects.


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## MichiH

^^ Yes, the article is a comment and represents the opinion of the author. But it's not satire at all. The author repeats his state at the end:



> Eine rote Linie bei 200 km/h ist besser als gar keine.


A limit at 200km/h is better than none.

btw: I don't think that I'm lunatic.


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## MichiH

*Car toll*

Andi Scheuer, Federal Minister of Transport has tweeted today, that the *car toll will be introduced in October 2020*. The contract was signed on 30th December 2018.

https://twitter.com/AndiScheuer/status/1080066545114669056

The contract was signed with "CTS Eventim" from Germany and "Kapsch TrafficCom" from Austria.

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/scheuer-pkw-maut-soll-im-oktober-2020-starten,RDuxwYO

All Autobahns and Bundesstraßen will be tolled. These roads are already tolled for trucks with a weight of 7.5 tons and more.


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## MichiH

*Diesel ban in Stuttgart*



MichiH said:


> Diesel ban is for all cars which do not have Euro 6 standard. Two sections in Hamburg are restricted since April 2018. The whole Stuttgart Umweltzone (almost whole city) will be restricted from January 2019 and Frankfurt from February. Minimum 8 sections in Berlin must be restricted from late March 2019. Munich, Düsseldorf, Aachen,... do not have a definitive date.
> 
> _"All the trouble just because of EU regulations"_





Attus said:


> However this restrictions are unable to be checked. All cars should be stopped and registration documents checked, which is only theoretically possible.





MichiH said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There have been such checks in Hamburg.


The Diesel ban in Stuttgart is in force since yesterday. It's currently just for Euro 4 and less. There will be no special checks just for that issue but police will check the engine type in your vehicle documents if you get into a general traffic check. Guys paid by the city who check that you don't park illegally will also check registration data (don't know if that's possible with foreign cars). You will only be admonished in January but you will be fined from February.

There was such a general traffic check today, see news article. They report about a guy from Lyon who was catched.

I've heard an report on radio too. They said that only a two tourists from France and Italy were caught. Both promised that they will leave the city immediately :lol:


https://www.stuttgart.de/en/diesel-ban



> *Information on the traffic ban for diesel vehicles*
> 
> From 1 January 2019 the Land Baden-Wuerttemberg will initiate in the environmental zone Stuttgart a year-round traffic prohibition for all vehicles with diesel motors with the emission standard 4 / IV and lower. This is one of the sanctions from the third update of the Clean Air Programme. For the residents of the city of Stuttgart a transitional period shall apply until 31 March 2019. Following the decisions of the Higher Administrative Court (November 2018) a traffic ban from 1 January 2020 for diesel vehicles with Euro 5 /V is under preparation as a supplement to the present plan update. Whether such a traffic ban is actually necessary will be revealed by the analysis of pollution levels which will take place mid-2019.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]


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## MichiH

There are two more expressway projects I do not yet have in my "motorway and expressway u/c list". I've omitted them because I thought they are too short and unimportant. However, both do fulfill all requirements, have grade-separated access to the "Autobahn network" and both are planned to be extended expressway-like.

_*B175:* AS Mosel-VW – Glauchau-Waldenburger Straße 4.5km (2019 to ?) – project – map_
*B175:* north of AS Mosel (B93) – AS Mosel-VW 1km (May 2016 to 9th November 2018) – ? – map

*B318:* AS Holzkirchen (A8) – AS Holzkirchen 1.5km (June 2017 to Mid 2019) – project – map
_*B318:* AS Holzkirchen – AS Sufferloh 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map_


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## ajch

From my last trip to Germany past 29th Dec. A8 in Pforzheim.

Could somebody explain why there is this bottleneck? from 3 lanes to 2 lanes going to Stuttgart and also going to Karlsruhe. No more than 2 kms (one down the valley and one up the valley).


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## ChrisZwolle

For a long time there was a lot more of four lane A8 between Karlsruhe and Stuttgart. It was upgraded to six lanes with many fragmented expansion projects, the first bridge with 3 lanes opened in the late 1980s and small sections were widened every few years, until what you see now was completed in 2015.

There are plans to expand the remaining section of A8 at Pforzheim in the near future, in fact they have already started on the railroad crossing and I think you see some construction for the future tunnel in your photo.


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## MichiH

^^ The bottleneck will be eliminated "soon". The 4.8km long section (it's partially 3-laned but w/o hard shoulders) should be completed by 2024. Works began in April 2018. The previous section (9km) was widened from August 2009 to June 2015.


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## Ni3lS

Last time I drove past there in October they were working on the bridge which currently seems to be in the way of lane expansion. Dumbest bottleneck I know and one of the only ones I know in the traditional sense of the word. Traffic is already bad on the 3-lane sections of the A8, there is a traffic jam at the 2-lane section Pforzheim all-day everyday.


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## Exethalion

At the bottom of the valley you can see the old railway bridge that restricts the section to two lanes. As you can see land has been cleared for the widening, but the slopes are still incredibly steep and I think even after it becomes three lanes it will remain a bottleneck in the already heavily congested A8. I once read a report that placed it as the 2nd worst traffic hotspot in Europe in terms of cost to local economy. Ongoing works and disruption for S21 will only exacerbate this.


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## ChrisZwolle

Traffic volumes are already high enough to make eight lanes viable. 

This six lane expansion was already planned in the 1970s, but it was postponed after A82 was planned to be a parallel motorway. However A82 was never built. 

If the widening will be completed in 2024 or 2025, it is a solution for a problem that already existed 50 years prior, making the solution outdated as soon as it is completed. 

The traffic volumes on A8 Karlsruhe - Stuttgart fluctuated between 86,000 and 118,000 vehicles per day in 2015. If you consider the truck share and steep hills, then 2x4 lanes is not a far-fetched idea...


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## MichiH

*Future motorway or expressway projects*



MichiH said:


> ChrisZwolle said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, this still gives Spain the #1 position in Europe, slightly ahead of France and Germany if you include their expressways. Spain currently has 15,578 kilometers of motorway.
> 
> #1 Spain: 15578 km
> #2 France: 15557 km
> #3 Germany: 15461 km
> 
> [...]
> 
> Germany could also overtake France if they get their planning together, since they too have plans for quite a bit of mileage (perhaps someone (MichiH?) has traffic plan (BVWP) figures available).
> 
> 
> 
> The German demand plan (BVWP 2030) contains new motorways with a length of about 1,000km. I think more than 900km are urgent demand which is meant to be built by 2030 (funding available so that it might be built but it's definitely not likely that everything will be built by 2030). "Yellow Autobahns" (motorway-like B roads) are not that many. Haven't count it.
> 
> I guess (but don't really know) that France plans less and think that Spain might built more.
Click to expand...

You can find all road projects of the BVWP 2030 (which was passed in Late 2016) here: http://bvwp-projekte.de/map_street.html

I've looked into it and made a list of all *new motorway and expressway projects*.

~300km are currently under construction
~68km have building permit and are funded
~19km have building permit but are not yet funded
~160km have plan approval order but it's not yet final or challenged
~310km with plan approval procedure in progress
~560km are urgent demand with chance to be u/c before 2030 but plan approval procedure not yet started
~120km are urgent demand with very low chance for construction start before 2030
~300km are further demand with planning right, construction start after 2030
~45km are further demand, no planning before 2030

I think that about *850 km* could be opened by 2030.
In total, we have about *1,500km* in urgent demand (funding available by 2030).
All projects including further demand have a length of about *1,900km*.

List of projects (w/o projects u/c which can be found here):

 Building permit and funded (~68km)

*A49:* AS Schwalmstadt – AS Stadtallendorf-North 13.3km (2020 to 2024?) – project – map
*A49:* AS Stadtallendorf-North – AD Ohmtal (A5) 17.4km (2020 to 2024?) – project – map
*A61:* AS Mönchengladbach-Wanlo – AS Jackerath 7km (? to 2035) [section was closed in 2018] – project – map
*A281:* AS Bremen-Gröpelingen – AS Bremen-Seehausen 4.9km (January 2019 to Late 2024) – project – map
*B14:* north of AS Backnang-West – AS Backnang-South ~4km (2020 to 2026) – ? – map
*B14:* AS Backnang-South – north of AS Waldrems ~2km (2021 to 2024) – ? – map
*B14:* north of AS Waldrems – south of AS Waldrems 0.9km (2020 to 2023) – ? – map
*B29:* west of Essingen – AS Essingen-Forst 1.5km (Spring 2019 to ?) – ? – map
*B29:* AS Essingen-Forst – west of Aalen 2.0km (Mid 2019 to Late 2022) – ? – map
*B31:* AS Unadingen – east of Gauchachtalbrücke Döggingen 2.5km (2020/21 to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
*B33:* AS Allensbach-Center – AS Allensbach-East 2.0km (2019 to 2027) – project – map
*B33:* AS Allensbach-East – Hegne 2.0km (2020? to 2027) – project – map
*B58:* east of Rhine bridge – Wesel-Schepersfeld (B70) 3.7km (Spring 2019 to 2024) – ? – map
*B175:* AS Mosel-VW – Glauchau-Waldenburger Straße 4.5km (2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map

 Building permit, not yet funded (~19km)

*B173:* AS Michelau – east of AS Zettlitz 8.0km (2019? to <= 2030?) – project – map (appeals were rejected in December 2018)
*B247:* AS Mühlhausen/Weinbergen (B249) – AS Großengottern-West ~4km (2020 to Early 2023) – ? – map (PPP profitability check ongoing)
*B247:* AS Großengottern-West – AS Schönstedt-East ~7km (2020 to Early 2023) – ? – map (PPP profitability check ongoing)

 Plan approval order not yet final or challenged (~160km)

*A14:* AS Osterburg – AS Uenglingen 18.2km (Fall 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map (waiting for building permit of neighboring section – order was passed in 2018)
*A20:* AD Westerstede (A28) – AK Jaderberg (A29) 12.9km (>= 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map (court hearing not yet scheduled – order was passed in April 2018)
*A20:* AK Kehdingen (A26) – AS Glücksstadt 10.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedures ongoing, plan approval procedure for AK ongoing)
*A20:* AK Bad Bramstedt (A7) – AS Wittenborn 19.7km (>= Late 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary)
*A20:* AS Wittenborn – Weede 10.0km (> 2022 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary)
*A26:* AS Neu Wulmstorf – AK Hamburg-Süderelbe (A7) 8.7km (>= 2019 to Early 2024) – project – map (plan approval order was passed in December 2018)
*A39:* AS Ehra – AS Weyhausen 13.8km (>= 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map (court hearing June 2019 – order was passed in 2018)
*A64:* east of AS Trier – north of Biewertal viaduct 0.9km (>= Mid 2019 to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary – order was passed in 1977)
*A66:* AD Erlenbruch (A661) – AS Frankfurt-Bergen-Enkheim 2.6km (2020 to 2027/28) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedures ongoing – order was passed in 2007)
*A94:* north of AS Kirchham – AD Pocking (A3) 12.5km (2019/20 to ?) – project – map (court hearing 2019 – order was passed in July 2018)
*A143:* AD Halle-North (A14) – AS Halle-Neustadt 12.4km (2020 to 2025) – project – map (court hearing May 2019 – final order was passed in April 2018)
*A281:* south of AS Bremen-Airportstadt – AS Bremen-Kattenturm 2.2km (2019 to 2024) – project – map (plan approval supplement order in early 2019)
*B47:* AS Rosengarten-West – east of Rosengarten 3.6km (? to ?) – project – map (court hearing not yet scheduled – order was passed in 2015)
*B47:* east of AS Bürstadt (B44) – AS Bürstadt-East 2.6km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary – order was passed in 1971)
*B49:* AS Biskirchen – AS Tiefenbach 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary – order was passed in 2013)
*B173:* AS Küps-Nord (B303) – AS Neuses 2.9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (court hearing not yet scheduled – order was passed in 2016)
*B207:* AS Puttgarden – north of Fehmarnsund bridge 10.0km (? to ?) – ? – map (court hearing >= Late 2019 – final order was passed May 2018)
*B207:* south of Fehmarnsund bridge – AS Heiligenhafen-East 6.3km (? to ?) – ? – map (court hearing >= Late 2019 – final order was passed May 2018)
*B293:* AS Jockgrim (B9) – AS Karlsruhe-Raffineriestraße (B10) 5.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (court hearing not yet scheduled – order was passed in 2017)

 Plan approval procedure in progress (~310km)

*A1:* AS Blankenheim – AS Lommersdorf 6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A1:* AS Adenau – AS Kelberg 10.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A14:* AS Karstädt – AS Wittenberge 17.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A14:* AS Wittenberge – AS Vielbaum 8.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A14:* AS Vielbaum – AS Osterburg 16.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A14:* AS Uenglingen – AS Lüderitz 12.9km (Fall 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A14:* AS Wolmirstedt – AS Dahlenwarsleben 11.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AK Jaderberg (A29) – AS Schwei 22.4km (>= 2021 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AS Bremervörde-West – AS Bremervörde-East 12.4km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AS Glücksstadt – AK Hohenfelde (A23) 15.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AK Hohenfelde (A23) – AS Bokel 9.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AS Bokel – AK Bad Bramstedt (A7) 15.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A25:* west of AD Geesthacht-West (A21) – east of AD Geesthacht-North (A21) 3.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A26:* AK Kehdingen (A20) – AS Stade-North 10.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A26:* AS Stade-North – AS Stade-East 5.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A26:* AK Hamburg-Süderelbe (A7) – AS Hamburg-Hafen-South 2.0km (Late 2020 to Mid 2024) – project – map
*A39:* AS Lüneburg-North – AS Lüneburg-East 7.7km (>= Late 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A39:* AS Lüneburg-East – AS Bad Bevensen 20km (>= 2021 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A39:* AS Wittingen – AS Ehra 18.1km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A44:* AD Kassel-East (A7) – AS Helsa-East 11.3km (? to ?) – project – map
*A52:* AK Essen-North (A42) – city limit Bottrop/Gladbeck 3.6km (2021 to Late 2023) [upgrade of B224] – project – map
*A52:* city limit Bottrop/Gladbeck – AK Essen/Gladbeck (A2) 1.6km (2021 to Late 2024) [upgrade of B224] – project – map
*A98:* AS Rheinfelden-Karsau – AS Wehr 6.5km (? to <= 2030?) [1st c/w] – project – map
*A445:* AD Hamm (A2) – AS Werl-North 7.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B2:* south of AS Eschenlohe – AS Oberau-North 3.8km (2021? to ?) – project – map
*B4:* AS Gifhorn-South – Vordorf 10.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B27:* AS Reichensachsen (B452) – AS Eschwege (A44) 1.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B47:* AS Bürstadt-East – west of AS Lorch-West 3.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B49:* AS Leun – AS Solms 4.5km (? to ?) – project – map
*B73:* west of AS Drochtersen – AK Kehdingen (A20/A26) 3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B96:* Löwenberg-West (B167) – AS Oranienburg-North 13.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B402:* AS Meppen (A31) – AS Meppen (B70) 11.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B474:* AS Waltrop-West (L511) – AK Dortmund-Northwest (A2/A45) 3.3km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B486:* AS Langen/Mörfelden (A5) – AS Langen-West 2.1km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map

 With chance to be u/c before 2030 but plan approval procedure not yet started (~560km)

*A1:* AS Lommersdorf – AS Adenau 8.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AS Schwei – east of Weser tunnel 10.4km (>= 2024 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* east of Weser tunnel – AD Stotel (A27) 6.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AD Loxstedt (A27) – AS Heerstedt 16.1km (>= 2026 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AS Heerstedt – AS Bremervörde-West 19.2km (>= 2025 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A20:* AS Bremervörde-East – AK Kehdingen (A26) 20km (>= 2022 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A21:* AS Kiel-Wellseedamm – Klein Barkau 6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A26:* AS Hamburg-Hafen-South – AS Hamburg-Hohe Schaar 3.9km (Early 2022 to Late 2025) – project – map
*A26:* AS Hamburg-Hohe Schaar – AD Hamburg-Stillhorn (A1) 3.9km (Early 2023 to Late 2026) – project – map
*A33:* AD Osnabrück-North (A1) – AS Belm (B51) 9.2km (2021 to ) – project – map
*A39:* AS Bad Bevensen – AS Uelzen 16.4km (>= 2024 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A39:* AS Uelzen – AS Bad Bodenteich 12.6km (>= 2023 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A39:* AS Bad Bodenteich – AS Wittingen 16.1km (>= 2023 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A46:* AS Hemer – Menden (B515) 7.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A52:* AK Essen/Gladbeck (A2) – AS Gelsenkirchen/Buer-West 2.6km (Late 2024 to 2030) [upgrade of B224] – project – map
*A94:* AS Burghausen – AS Simbach-West 14.3km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A94:* AS Simbach-West – west of Malching 15.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A98:* AS Wehr – AS Murg 7km (? to <= 2030?) [1st c/w] – project – map
*A100:* AS Am Treptower Park – AS Frankfurter Allee (B1/B5) 3.1km (? to <= 2030?) [2x3]– ? – map
*A100:* AS Frankfurter Allee (B1/B5) – Storkower Straße 1.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2x2]– ? – map
*A553:* AK Köln-Godorf (A555) – AD Köln-Lind (A59) 10km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*A860:* rededication AS Freiburg.Mitte (A5) – AS Freiburg-Mitte (B3) 5.5km (> 2032) – ? – map
*A860:* AS Freiburg-Mitte (B3) – AS Freiburg-Ganterknoten 1.7km (> 2025 to > 2032) – project – map
*B2:* AS Friedberg (A8) – AS Friedberg (B300) 5.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B2:* AS Friedberg (B300) – north of Kissing 4.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B2:* north of Kissing – west of Mering 7.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B3:* AS Rohrbach (B535) – AS Nußloch-South 5.7km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B4:* Vordorf – AS Braunschweig-Thune 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B4:* AS Braunschweig-Thune – AS Braunschweig-Wenden 1.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B7:* AS Nohra – AS Weimar-West 4.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B10:* AS Hinterweidenthal – AS Hauenstein 6.9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B10:* Enzweihingen – AS Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen (A81) 12.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B12:* AS Kempten (A7) – AS Jengen/Kaufbeuren (A96) 51.4km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] [split into 6 sections] – project – map
*B15:* AS Landshut/Essenbach (A92) – AS Altheim 1.3km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B15n:* AS Essenbach (A92) – AS Landshut-Auloh 2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B15n:* AS Landshut-Auloh – AS Landshut-East (B299) 9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B16:* AS Manching (A9) – AS Manching-West (B13) 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B16:* AS Manching-West (B13) – AS Zell 16.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B16:* AS Zell – AS Neuburg-South 4.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B20:* AS Chameregg (B85) – AS Cham-Mitte (B22) 2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B20:* AS Cham-Mitte (B22) – AS Cham-Süd (B85) 2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B20:* AS Straubing (A3) – AS Landau (A92) 29.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B27:* AS Bad Friedrichshall-Süd – AS Neckarsulm-Nord 1.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B27:* AS Tübinger Kreuz – AS Tübingen-Bläsibad 3.6km (? to >= 2030) – project – map
*B27:* AS Nehren – AS Bodelshausen 6.9km (>= 2022 to >= 2028) – project – map
*B29:* AS Kornwestheim (B27) – AS Waiblingen-Süd (B14) 11.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B29:* AS Schwäbisch Gmünd-Herlikofen – AS Schwäbisch Gmünd-East 2.4km (>= 2023 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B29:* AS Schwäbisch Gmünd-East – west of Böbingen 3.5km (>= 2023 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B29:* west of Böbingen – east of Böbingen 3.7km (>= 2023 to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B30:* AS Karrer – AS Friedrichshafen-Neue Messe 12.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* Meersburg-West – Immenstaad 10.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* AS Friedrichshafen/Waggershausen – AS Friedrichshafen-Mitte 2.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B36:* AS Karlsruhe-Dea-Scholven-Straße (B293) – AS Karlsruhe-Neureut 3.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B49:* AS Löhnberg – AS Biskirchen 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map
*B50:* east of AS Lösnich – Wederath 3km (? to <= 2030?) – ? – map
*B50:* Wederath – Hirschfeld 7km (? to <= 2030?) – ? – map
*B50:* Hirschfeld – AS Lautzenhausen 4km (? to <= 2030?) – ? – map
*B51:* Telgte (K17) – Handorf 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B51:* Handorf – AS Münster-Warendorfer Straße (B481) 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B51:* AS Igel (A64) – AS Igel (B49) 4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B72:* AS Cloppenburg-Bethen (B213) – AS Cloppenburg (A1) 11.9km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B173:* east of AS Lichtenfels-East – AS Michelau 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B207:* Fehmarnsund crossing 2.7km (>= 2022? to >= 2028?) – ? – map
*B213:* AS Haselünne – District border EL/CLP 14.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B213:* District border EL/CLP – east of Löningen 10.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B213:* east of Löningen – east of Lastrup 10.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B213:* east of Lastrup – AS Cloppenburg-West (B68) 8.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B247:* AS Gotha (A4) – south of Schwabhausen 4.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B266:* north of AS Ehlingen (A571) – west of Bad Bodendorf 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B301:* AS Freising-Mitte (A92) – AS Airport Munich 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B402:* AS Meppen (B70) – AS Haselünne 11.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B469:* AS Mainhausen (A45) – AS Stockstadt-Landfill site 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map

 Very low chance for construction start before 2030 (~120km)

*A21:* AS Kiel-Barkauer Kreuz (B76) – AS Kiel-Neueimersdorf 2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A21:* AK Bargteheide (A1) – AK Schwarzenbek/Grande (A24) 20km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A98:* AS Hauenstein – AS Tiengen-West 9km (? to <= 2030?) [1st c/w] – project – map
*B7:* AS Mönchholzhausen – AS Nohra 6.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B8:* AS Wesel-South (B58) – Friedrichsfeld 1.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B10:* AS Hauenstein – AS Rinnthal 6.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B30:* AS Biberach-South – Hochdorf 5.2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B30:* east of AS Bad Waldsee-South – south of Enzisreute 9.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* AS Kirchzarten – AS Buchenbach 3.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B31:* AS Überlingen-East – Oberuhldingen 4.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* Oberuhldingen – Meersburg-West 6.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B45:* AS Dieburg (B26) – Groß-Umstadt 5.9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B54:* AS Nordwalde – AS Altenberge-West 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B54:* AS Altenberge-West – AS Altenberge-East 2.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B54:* south of AS Altenberge-East – Hohenhorst 1.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B54:* Waltrup – west of AS Nienberge 1.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B62:* Lahntal-Göttingen – AS Cölbe (B3) 1.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B173:* east of AS Zettlitz – Oberlangenstadt 3.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B202:* AS Kiel-Molfsee (A21) – AS Kiel-Wellsee (B76) 2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B214:* Braunschweig-Veltenhof – AS Braunschweig-Watenbüttel-East (A392) 1.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B318:* AS Holzkirchen – AS Sufferloh 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B388:* AS Ismaning (B471) – AS Fischerhäuser (B301) 3.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B471:* AS Fürstenfeldbruck-East – AS Esting 3.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B471:* AS Esting – AS Geiselbullach 3.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B471:* AS Dachau-East – AS Oberschleißheim (A92) 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B471:* Hochbrück-West (B13) – Hochbrück-East 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) [grade-separted?] – project – map
*B471:* Garching – AS Ismaning (B388) 3.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map
*B471:* AS Ismaning (B388) – south of AS Ismaning-East 4.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map

Construction start after 2030 (~300km)

*A1:* Saarbrücken-North – Saarbrücken-Ludwigsberg (A623) 3.2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*A21:* AK Schwarzenbek/Grande (A24) – AD Geesthacht-North (A25) 15km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*A21:* AD Geesthacht-West (A25) – AD Handorf (A39) 17km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A40:* AS Dortmund-Hombruch – AS Dortmund-Mitte 2.5km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B1] – project – map
*A40:* AS Dortmund-Mitte – AS Dortmund-East 3.6km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B1] – project – map
*A44:* AS Essen-Heisingen – AS Essen-Bergerhausen (A52) 3.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*A52:* AK Essen-East (A40) – AK Essen-North (A42) 7.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*A98:* AS Rheinfelden-Karsau – AS Wehr 6.5km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A98:* AS Wehr – AS Murg 7km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A98:* AS Murg – AS Hauenstein 9km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A98:* AS Hauenstein – AS Tiengen-West 16km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A524:* Rhine crossing Krefeld/Duisburg 3.9km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B288] – project – map
*A524:* east of Rhine crossing – west of AS Duisburg-Huckingen 3.0km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B288] – project – map
*B2:* west of Mering – AS Oberrottmarshausen (B17) 8.0km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B3:* Kloppenheim – AS Massenheim-North 4.0km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B6n:* AS Bremen-Kattenturm – south of AS Bremen/Brinkum (A1) 4.7km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B10:* AS Rinnthal – AS Annweiler-East 5.2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B10:* AS Annweiler-East – AS Godramstein 7.3km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B20:* AS Cham-Süd (B85) – AS Straubing (A3) 29.9km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* AS Buchenbach – east of Falkensteig 2.5km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* east of Falkensteig – east of Hirschsprung tunnel 3.3km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* BW/BY border – AS Sigmarszell (A96) 7.6km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B51:* AS Ostercappeln-West – north of Belm 3.8km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B54:* AS Gronau-East – AS Gronau/Ochtrup 4.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B54:* AS Borghorst – AS Nordwalde 6.3km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B56:* AS Bonn-Hardtsberg (A565) – Bonn-Bad Godesberg (A562) 5.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B56:* AK Bonn-East (A59/A562) – AD Birlinghoven (A3) 6.4km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B65:* west of Nordgoltern – east of Everlöh 10.8km (? to >= 2030?) [1st c/w] – project – map
*B85:* AS Pittersburg – AS Schwandorf-West 2.6km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B85:* AS Schwandorf-West – AS Schwandorf-North (A93) 5.2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B85:* Wackersdorf – west of Neubäu 20km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B85:* AS Neubäu-West – AS Neubäu-East 4.0km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B85:* AS Neubäu-East – AS Altenkreith (B16) 7km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B85:* AS Altenkreith (B16) – east of Altenkreith 5.5km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B87:* AS Leipzig-Mitte (A14) – AS Eilenburg (B107) 18.7km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B299:* AS Landshut-Nord (A92) – Landshut-Schönbrunn 4.6km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B300:* AS Aichach-West – AS Kühbach-East 12.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B301:* AS Airport Munich – north of Hallbergmoos 2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B303:* west of AS Schirnding-East – D/CZ Border (Schirnding) 1.6km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B317:* AS Lörrach-Mitte (A98) – AS Schopfheim-West 8.8km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map
*B500:* AS Iffezheim – AS Baden-Baden (A5) 2.5km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map

 No planning before 2030 (~45km)

*B10:* AD Neu-Ulm (B28/B30) – west of AS Neu-Ulm-Finningen 4.4km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B31:* Hinterzarten bypass 3.8km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B65:* AS Bad Nenndorf (A2) – west of Nordgoltern 4.2km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B65:* west of Nordgoltern – east of Everlöh 10.8km (? to > 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B65:* east of Everlöh – west of Empelde 2.9km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B66:* Bielefeld-Eckerndorfer Straße (B61) – west of AS Bielefeld-East (A2) 6.2km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B247:* south of Gotha – AS Gotha (A4) 2.1km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B247:* south of Schwabhausen – Ohrdruf-North 3.4km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B471:* AS Buchenau-South – AS Fürstenfeldbruck-East 6.2km (? to > 2030?) – project – map
*B502:* AS Kiel-Wellsee (B76) – AS Ellerbek 2.6km (? to > 2030?) – project – map

 No demand anymore

*A60:* east of AS Winterspelt – north of AS Prüm 18.2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
*A62:* south of AS Bann – south of AS Weselberg 9.3km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
*A62:* Schwarzbach viaduct – AS Pirmasens 6.0km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map

Note: I've omitted small projects, especially those which are not continuously grade-separated (connected to other Autobahns or expressways)


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## ChrisZwolle

Interesting. 850 km means they should open 77 km on average every year until 2030. Is that realistic?

I looked at Autobahn openings in the past 10 years:

2009	81
2010	12
2011	20
2012	31
2013	41
2014	25
2015	40
2016	7
2017	12
2018	45

That's an average of 31 km per year.


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## MichiH

^^ Funding was a big issue about 10 years ago. It has changed from ~ 2012. And many Autobahn projects still stick in plan approval procedure but should finally be done "soon". Especially A14, A20 and A39. In addition, I think that you didn't count expressways but I did. Your 2016 figures is odd though...

Here my list of Autobahn network lengths extension (w/o expressways but with decommissioning and rededication):

2001: 72.0km
2002: 199.1km
2003: 107.5km
2004: 120.9km
2005: 191.0km
2006: 176.1km
2007: 36.9km
2008: 143.7km
2009: 81.0km
2010: 11.9km
2011: 20.1km
2012: 30.8km
2013: 40.8km
2014: 25,1km
2015: 39.1km
2016: 2.0km
2017: 19.5km
2018: 37.4km


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## ChrisZwolle

The 2016 figure is based entirely on a 7 km section of upgrade from B5 to A23 at Itzehoe which was completed in that year (but partially in service earlier).


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## MichiH

I've clustered the single project in overall projects, sorted by regions and commented them a little bit:

- Important bigger projects
- Regional or smaller projects (north)
- Regional or smaller projects (NRW)
- Regional or smaller projects (central Germany)
- Regional or smaller projects (southwest)
- Regional or smaller projects (Baden-Württemberg)
- Regional or smaller projects (Bavaria)
- Regional or smaller projects (east)


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## MichiH

*Important bigger projects*

The last gap of A1 in western Germany. It's the route from Cologne to Ssarbrücken through Eifel mountains. It's planned for a long time but a lot of protest against the route. You need to drive A61 and A48 today. Neighboring sections were opened from 1970s to 2012.

_*A1:* AS Blankenheim – AS Lommersdorf 6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A1:* AS Lommersdorf – AS Adenau 8.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A1:* AS Adenau – AS Kelberg 10.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


An important route from the Baltic Sea to the south. It should also develop the rural area in Saxony-Anhalt. Opponents wanna save the nature and still just wanna upgrade the existing routes. Especially the River Elbe crossing at Wittenberge is a big issue.

*A14:* AK Schwerin – AS Grabow 14.4km (November 2012 to 21st December 2015) – ? – map
*A14:* AS Grabow – AS Groß Warnow 11.5km (June 2015 to 20th December 2017) – ? – map
*A14:* AS Groß Warnow – AS Karstädt 10.8km (October 2013 to 21st December 2015) – project – map
_*A14:* AS Osterburg – AS Uenglingen 18.2km (Fall 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map (waiting for building permit of neighboring section – order was passed in 2018)_
_*A14:* AS Karstädt – AS Wittenberge 17.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A14:* AS Wittenberge – AS Vielbaum 8.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A14:* AS Vielbaum – AS Osterburg 16.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A14:* AS Uenglingen – AS Lüderitz 12.9km (Fall 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
*A14:* AS Lüderitz – AS Tangerhütte 14.8km (August 2018 to 2021) – project – map
*A14:* AS Tangerhütte – AS Colbitz 8.5km (August 2017 to 2020) – project – map
*A14:* AS Colbitz – AS Wolmirstedt 5.7km (November 2011 to 29th October 2014) – project – map
_*A14:* AS Wolmirstedt – AS Dahlenwarsleben 11.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


The biggest project, the so-called "Baltic Sea Autobahn" but also "Northwestern Hamburg Bypass". About 200km to be built including two tunnels (River Weser tunnel is already in service (B437) and only planned to be upgraded/redicated), Opponents wanna save the nature, big problems with getting building permits in Schleswig-Holstein.

_*A20:* AD Westerstede (A28) – AK Jaderberg (A29) 12.9km (>= 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map (court hearing not yet scheduled – order was passed in April 2018)_
_*A20:* AK Jaderberg (A29) – AS Schwei 22.4km (>= 2021 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A20:* AS Schwei – east of Weser tunnel 10.4km (>= 2024 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A20:* east of Weser tunnel – AD Stotel (A27) 6.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A20:* AD Loxstedt (A27) – AS Heerstedt 16.1km (>= 2026 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A20:* AS Heerstedt – AS Bremervörde-West 19.2km (>= 2025 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A20:* AS Bremervörde-West – AS Bremervörde-East 12.4km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A20:* AS Bremervörde-East – AK Kehdingen (A26) 20km (>= 2022 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A20:* AK Kehdingen (A26) – AS Glücksstadt 10.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedures ongoing, plan approval procedure for AK ongoing)_
_*A20:* AS Glücksstadt – AK Hohenfelde (A23) 15.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A20:* AK Hohenfelde (A23) – AS Bokel 9.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A20:* AS Bokel – AK Bad Bramstedt (A7) 15.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A20:* AK Bad Bramstedt (A7) – AS Wittenborn 19.7km (>= Late 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary)_
_*A20:* AS Wittenborn – Weede 10.0km (> 2022 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary)_

I consider A26 as a branch of A20. It contains the southern bypass of Hamburg to connect the Harbor and it also develops the region west of Hamburg.

_*B73:* west of AS Drochtersen – AK Kehdingen (A20/A26) 3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A26:* AK Kehdingen (A20) – AS Stade-North 10.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A26:* AS Stade-North – AS Stade-East 5.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
*A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork 4.6km (Summer 2006 to 28th November 2014) [direction Stade] – project – map
*A26:* AS Horneburg – AS Jork 4.6km (Summer 2006 to 17th July 2015) [direction Hamburg] – project – map
*A26:* AS Jork – AS Buxtehude 4.5km (Summer 2006 to Early 2022) – project – map
*A26:* AS Buxtehude – AS Neu Wulmstorf 4.1km (September 2013 to Early 2022) – project – map
_*A26:* AS Neu Wulmstorf – AK Hamburg-Süderelbe (A7) 8.7km (>= 2019 to Early 2024) – project – map (plan approval order was passed in December 2018)_
_*A26:* AK Hamburg-Süderelbe (A7) – AS Hamburg-Hafen-South 2.0km (Late 2020 to Mid 2024) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A26:* AS Hamburg-Hafen-South – AS Hamburg-Hohe Schaar 3.9km (Early 2022 to Late 2025) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A26:* AS Hamburg-Hohe Schaar – AD Hamburg-Stillhorn (A1) 3.9km (Early 2023 to Late 2026) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_

And A26 has it's own branch in Hamburg, the Wilhelmsburg bypass. Once this section will be opened, A252 and A253 will be rededicated to B75.

*B75:* AS Hamburg-Georgswerder – AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-South (A26) 4.8km (October 2016 to November 2019) [rededication of A252/A253: 6.0km] – project – map


In addition to the northwestern bypass of Hamburg (A20), it's also planned to have an eastern bypass. It also develops the regions and will be a second north-south route from Denmark to central Germany (Hannover), especially in combination with the future Fehman belt tunnel. The problem is, that only the northern segment from Kiel to A1 is in "advanced" stage but the priority is lower than for A20. The segment from A1 to A39 is partially 2+1 or planned to be upgraded but again, low priority. The southern segement in Lower Saxony (A39) is more advanced and has the same priority as A20 but the situation is similar to the "parallel" A14. Opponents wanna upgrade existing routes only and preserve nature.

_*A21:* AS Kiel-Barkauer Kreuz (B76) – AS Kiel-Neueimersdorf 2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*A21:* AS Kiel-Wellseedamm – Klein Barkau 6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
*A21:* Klein Barkau – north of Nettelsee 6.2km (September 2018 to 2022) – project – map
*A21:* north of Nettelsee – north of AS Nettelsee ~2km (Early 2018 to 2022) – project – map
*A21:* north of AS Nettelsee – south of Nettelsee 2.1km (February 2012 to 9th December 2017) – project – map
*A21:* south of Nettelsee – Stolpe 2km (February 2012 to 2nd December 2014) – project – map
_*A21:* AK Bargteheide (A1) – AK Schwarzenbek/Grande (A24) 20km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*A21:* AK Schwarzenbek/Grande (A24) – AD Geesthacht-North (A25) 15km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*A25:* west of AD Geesthacht-West (A21) – east of AD Geesthacht-North (A21) 3.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A21:* AD Geesthacht-West (A25) – AD Handorf (A39) 17km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*A39:* AS Lüneburg-North – AS Lüneburg-East 7.7km (>= Late 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A39:* AS Lüneburg-East – AS Bad Bevensen 20km (>= 2021 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A39:* AS Bad Bevensen – AS Uelzen 16.4km (>= 2024 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A39:* AS Uelzen – AS Bad Bodenteich 12.6km (>= 2023 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A39:* AS Bad Bodenteich – AS Wittingen 16.1km (>= 2023 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A39:* AS Wittingen – AS Ehra 18.1km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A39:* AS Ehra – AS Weyhausen 13.8km (>= 2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map (court hearing June 2019 – order was passed in 2018)_

A branch is the southern bypass of Kiel.

_*B202:* AS Kiel-Molfsee (A21) – AS Kiel-Wellsee (B76) 2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B502:* AS Kiel-Wellsee (B76) – AS Ellerbek 2.6km (? to > 2030?) – project – map (no planning before 2030)_


The Ruhr area is the largest urban area in Germany, and third-largest in the European Union. All existing Autobahns are frequently overloaded. It was planned to built A44 from Düsseldorf to Dortmund especially to relieve THE Ruhrschnellweg (Ruhr fast road), A40, but opponents don't wanna have it through the "open land" south of Essen/Bochum and they don't wanna have a southern bypass of Dortmund. Instead, the "DüBoDo" project was introduced. A44 is only built from Düsseldorf to Essen, Bochum is bypassed by the inner-city Autobahn A448 and Dortmund will also get an inner-city 2x3 Autobahn. A40 was only widened to 2x3 but AADT is already betwen 73,000 and 115,000 vehicles/day between Essen and Dortmund where A40 and A44 would virtually be parallel. The completion of the DüBoDo project will surely not lead to less traffic here.

*A44:* AK Ratingen-East (A3) – AS Heiligenhaus 4.0km (September 2016 to 2021) – project – map
*A44:* AS Heiligenhaus – AS Heiligenhaus-Hetterscheidt 4.9km (April 2010 to 14th April 2018) – project – map
_*A44:* AS Essen-Heisingen – AS Essen-Bergerhausen (A52) 3.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_

*A448:* rededication AD Bochum-West – AS Bochum-Wiemelhausen 5.9km (1st January 2017) – project – map
*A448:* rededication AS Bochum-Wiemelhausen – AS Altenbochum (West) 0.9km (Late 2020) – project – map
*A448:* AS Altenbochum (West) – AS Altenbochum (East) 1.9km (October 2012 to Late 2020) – project – map
*A448:* AS Altenbochum (East) – AK Bochum/Witten 1.4km (October 2012 to 24th August 2018) – project – map

_*A40:* AS Dortmund-Hombruch – AS Dortmund-Mitte 2.5km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B1] – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*A40:* AS Dortmund-Mitte – AS Dortmund-East 3.6km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B1] – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
*A40:* rededication AS Dortmund-East (B236) – AK Dortmund/Unna (A1/A44) 9.5km (Spring 2023) – project – map

A branch of it is the completion of A52 through Essen. It's planned to be 2x3 from A40 to A2. There's a big opposition especially for the last section in Gladbeck.

_*A52:* AK Essen-East (A40) – AK Essen-North (A42) 7.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*A52:* AK Essen-North (A42) – city limit Bottrop/Gladbeck 3.6km (2021 to Late 2023) [upgrade of B224] – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A52:* city limit Bottrop/Gladbeck – AK Essen/Gladbeck (A2) 1.6km (2021 to Late 2024) [upgrade of B224] – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*A52:* AK Essen/Gladbeck (A2) – AS Gelsenkirchen/Buer-West 2.6km (Late 2024 to 2030) [upgrade of B224] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Since the A4 gap between A45 and A7 is not planned to be closed anymore, A44 is getting more and more important as an west-east route. A4 leads towards the southwest from Eisenach and A44 continues to the west (Ruhr area, Netherlands, Belgium). It will be a real alternative fro trucks once A44 from Kassel to Eisenach is completed but not earlier because trucks are not allowed on B7.

_*A44:* AD Kassel-East (A7) – AS Helsa-East 11.3km (? to ?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
*A44:* AS Helsa-East – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West 6.1km (May 2010 to Late 2020) – project – map
*A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center 2.2km (April 2008 to 24th July 2014) – project – map
*A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-East – Hasselbach 4.3km (September 2010 to 13th April 2018) – project – map
*A44:* Hasselbach – AS Waldkappel 6.9km (March 2011 to 13th April 2018) – project – map
*A44:* AS Waldkappel – AS Ringgau 7.9km (July 2016 to Mid 2020) – project – map
*A44:* AS Ringgau – AS Sontra-West ~4km (Early 2017 to 2023) – project – map
*A44:* AS Sontra-West – AS Sontra-East ~9km (June 2018 to 2023) – project – map
*A44:* AS Sontra-East – AD Wommen (A4) ~7.5km (August 2017 to 2022) – project – map

There will be a short branch to Eschwege:

_*B27:* AS Reichensachsen (B452) – AS Eschwege (A44) 1.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


A7 is quite hilly south of Kassel. A49 is flat and way shorter than A7/A5. It's an important link.

*A49:* AS Neuental – AS Schwalmstadt 11.8km (March 2011 to Late 2021) – project – map
_*A49:* AS Schwalmstadt – AS Stadtallendorf-North 13.3km (2020 to 2024?) – project – map_
_*A49:* AS Stadtallendorf-North – AD Ohmtal (A5) 17.4km (2020 to 2024?) – project – map_


The Autobahn from Munich to Passau / Austria is finally growing.

*A94:* AS Pastetten – AS Dorfen 17.4km (April 2012 to October 2019) – project – map
*A94:* AS Dorfen – AS Heldenstein 14.9km (July 2013 to October 2019) – project – map
_*A94:* AS Burghausen – AS Simbach-West 14.3km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A94:* AS Simbach-West – west of Malching 15.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
*A94:* north of AS Malching – north of AS Kirchham 6.0km (June 2016 to 2022) – project – map
_*A94:* north of AS Kirchham – AD Pocking (A3) 12.5km (2019/20 to ?) – project – map (court hearing 2019 – order was passed in July 2018)_


The important E57 transit route from Denmark to Germany is planned to be upgraded by the Fehmarnbelt tunnel. The road on Fehmarn is planned to be upgraded to expressway standard:

_*B207:* AS Puttgarden – north of Fehmarnsund bridge 10.0km (? to ?) – ? – map (court hearing >= Late 2019 – final order was passed May 2018)_
_*B207:* Fehmarnsund crossing 2.7km (>= 2022? to >= 2028?) – ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B207:* south of Fehmarnsund bridge – AS Heiligenhafen-East 6.3km (? to ?) – ? – map (court hearing >= Late 2019 – final order was passed May 2018)_


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## MichiH

*Regional or smaller projects (north)*

Completion of the Autobahn from Hamburg to the North Sea. The neighboring sections to the north were opened in 1989/90, the 22km section towards Hamburg in 1981, further sections mostly in 1970s.

*A23:* AS Itzehoe-Center – south of Stör bridge 2.5km (January 2007 to 26th October 2015) – project – map
*A23:* south of Stör bridge – AS Itzehoe-South 2.0km (2010 to 14th June 2016) – project – map


Western bypass of Bremen, connecting A27 and A1. The first sections were opened in 1994 (2km) and 2008 (6km).

_*A281:* AS Bremen-Gröpelingen – AS Bremen-Seehausen 4.9km (January 2019 to Late 2024) – project – map_
*A281:* AS Bremen-Seehausen – AS Bremen-Strom 4.1km (April 2009 to 29th September 2014) – project – map
_*A281:* south of AS Bremen-Airportstadt – AS Bremen-Kattenturm 2.2km (2019 to 2024) – project – map (plan approval supplement order in early 2019)_
_*B6n:* AS Bremen-Kattenturm – south of AS Bremen/Brinkum (A1) 4.7km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


E233 has an AADT from 8,000 vehicles/day with truck share of about 40% to 20,000 vehicles/day.

_*B402:* AS Meppen (A31) – AS Meppen (B70) 11.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*B402:* AS Meppen (B70) – AS Haselünne 11.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B213:* AS Haselünne – District border EL/CLP 14.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B213:* District border EL/CLP – east of Löningen 10.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B213:* east of Löningen – east of Lastrup 10.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B213:* east of Lastrup – AS Cloppenburg-West (B68) 8.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B72:* AS Cloppenburg-Bethen (B213) – AS Cloppenburg (A1) 11.9km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Northern extension of A391 (AADT 17,000 to 19,000 vehicles/day)

_*B4:* AS Gifhorn-South – Vordorf 10.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
_*B4:* Vordorf – AS Braunschweig-Thune 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B4:* AS Braunschweig-Thune – AS Braunschweig-Wenden 1.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Western extension of A392:

_*B214:* Braunschweig-Veltenhof – AS Braunschweig-Watenbüttel-East (A392) 1.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_


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## MichiH

*Regional or smaller projects (NRW)*

Some realignments due to mining in NRW (paid by RWE company).

*A4:* AS Düren – AS Kerpen 12.9km (September 2008 to 17th September 2014) [direction Cologne] – project – map
*A4:* AS Düren – AS Kerpen 12.9km (September 2008 to 20th September 2014) [direction Aachen; discontinuation: 12.8km] – project – map

*A44:* west of AK Jackerath – AK Holz 10.2km (May 2012 to 1st July 2018) [direction Mönchengladbach] – project – map
*A44:* west of AK Jackerath – AK Holz 10.2km (May 2012 to 2nd September 2018) [direction Aachen; discontinuation: 7.5km] – project – map

_*A61:* AS Mönchengladbach-Wanlo – AS Jackerath 7km (? to 2035) [section was closed in 2018] – project – map_


Completion of the direct Autobahn connection from the Netherlands to Poland (Amsterdam – Warsaw). A30 was opened in 1970s and 1980s, the second to last section was opened in 1991.

*A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to 9th December 2018) [1st c/w; direction Osnabrück] – project – map
*A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to 13th December 2018) [1st c/w; direction Hannover] – project – map
*A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to Summer 2019) [2nd c/w] [discontinuation: 1.4km] – project – map
*A30:* AS Bad Oeynhausen-North – AS Dehme 1.6km (September 2008 to 12th March 2014) – project – map
*A30:* AS Dehme – AS Bad Oeynhausen-East 1.9km (September 2008 to 9th December 2018) – project – map


Completion of a regional Autobahn mostly built in 1980s and 1990s. The previous section was opened in 2001. It's 2x2 although expected AADT at Bielefeld is 60,000 vehicles/day. The northern-most section is disputed, I don't expect it being completed soon.

_*A33:* AD Osnabrück-North (A1) – AS Belm (B51) 9.2km (2021 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
*A33:* AS Belm (B51) – south of AS Osnabrück-Schinkel 2.2km (February 2015 to Late 2019) – project – map
*A33:* AS Borgholzhausen – AS Halle 8.6km (December 2012 to Late 2019) – project – map
*A33:* AS Halle – Halle-Künsebeck 4.0km (December 2012 to 11th January 2019) – project – map
*A33:* AS Halle-Künsebeck – AS Bielefeld-Center 7.9km (September 2009 to 4th April 2018) – project – map

The A33 forms a northeastern bypass of Osnabrück but there's also a branch from Osnabrück to the northeast:

_*B51:* AS Ostercappeln-West – north of Belm 3.8km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
*B51:* north of Belm – AS Belm (A33) 4.5km (February 2015 to Late 2019) – project – map


AADT on the 2-laned B288 is about 25,000 vehicles/day. Note that it's currently not planned anymore to upgrade the last segment with traffic lights up to A57.

_*A524:* Rhine crossing Krefeld/Duisburg 3.9km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B288] – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*A524:* east of Rhine crossing – west of AS Duisburg-Huckingen 3.0km (? to >= 2030?) [upgrade of B288] – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
*A524:* west of AS Duisburg-Huckingen – west of AK Duisburg-South (A59) 1.2km (June 2017 to Late 2020) – ? – map
*A524:* west of AK Duisburg-South – west of AS Duisburg-Rahm 1.9km (February 2010 to Early July 2014) – ? – map


A new Rhine crossing between Cologne and Bonn to relieve the neighboring Autobahns A4 and A565. The expected AADT is 63,000 vehicles/day but it's only planned for 2x2 lanes. The project was not in the previous demand plan (BVWP 2003) but the progress it has a high priority now. I guess that the (almost) 4-laned expressway "L150" from the existing A553 to A555 will be rededicated to A553.

_*A553:* AK Cologne-Godorf (A555) – AD Cologne-Lind (A59) 10km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


A new Rhine crossing south of Bonn to relieve the city. The route is in the corridor of formerly planned A56 and A562. The expected AADT is 39,000 vehicles/day.

_*B56:* AS Bonn-Hardtsberg (A565) – Bonn-Bad Godesberg (A562) 5.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B56:* AK Bonn-East (A59/A562) – AD Birlinghoven (A3) 6.4km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


The southern Wesel bypass is part of a west-east connection from A57 to A3/A31 with Rhine crossing north of the Ruhr area towards the Netherlands.

_*B58:* east of Rhine bridge – Wesel-Schepersfeld (B70) 3.7km (Spring 2019 to 2024) – ? – map_

It was planned to extend A59 from Dinslaken to Wesel as an expressway but NIMBY's don't want it. It's planned as a 2-laned bypass now and only the northern-most section connecting to the southern Wesel bypass will be 4-laned. Expected AADT is 16,000 vehicles/day.

_*B8:* AS Wesel-South (B58) – Friedrichsfeld 1.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_


The 20km A46 gap between Hagen and Arnsberg will not be closed as Autobahn but only the western section will be 4-laned, the eastern section will be 3-laned B7.

_*A46:* AS Hemer – Menden (B515) 7.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_

The eastern A46 was opened from 1985 to 2003, an extension is u/c. The next section up to Brilon is also planned as 3-laned B7 only.

*A46:* AS Bestwig – AS Nuttlar 5.6km (September 2009 to Late 2019) – ? – map

But back to the 20km gap between Hagen and Arnsberg. A46 doesn't end here but is continued to the north as A445 to A44. It's planned to extend it to A2.

_*A445:* AD Hamm (A2) – AS Werl-North 7.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


Northern extension of A43 near Münster

_*B51:* Telgte (K17) – Handorf 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B51:* Handorf – AS Münster-Warendorfer Straße (B481) 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
*B51:* AS Münster-Warendorfer Straße (B481) – AS Münster-Wolbecker Straße 2.7km (June 2015 to >= 2020?) – project – map


Partial upgrade to expressway standard (formerly planned as A314):

_*B54:* AS Gronau-East – AS Gronau/Ochtrup 4.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B54:* AS Borghorst – AS Nordwalde 6.3km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B54:* AS Nordwalde – AS Altenberge-West 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B54:* AS Altenberge-West – AS Altenberge-East 2.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B54:* south of AS Altenberge-East – Hohenhorst 1.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B54:* Waltrup – west of AS Nienberge 1.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_


Bielefeld does not exist!

_*B66:* Bielefeld-Eckerndorfer Straße (B61) – west of AS Bielefeld-East (A2) 6.2km (? to > 2030?) – project – map (no planning before 2030)_
*B66:* AS Leopoldshöhe-Rollkrug – AS Leopoldshöhe-Asemissen 2.1km (August 2017 to 2021) – ? – map


Last section of the north-south expressway through Dortmund:

*B236:* Dortmund-Aplerbecker Mark – AS Dortmund/Schwerte (A1) 1.7km (August 2018 to Fall 2020) – project – map


Northern extension of A45 western bypass of Dortmund:

_*B474:* AS Waltrop-West (L511) – AK Dortmund-Northwest (A2/A45) 3.3km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


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## MichiH

*Regional or smaller projects (central Germany)*

Not a new road but the former B6 was rededicated because regional politicians think that a "real" Autobahn can develop the region better. A369 was B4 and already Autobahn A395 by 2001.

*A36:* rededication AD Vienenburg (A369) – AK Bernburg (A14) 84.5km (1st January 2019) – ? – map
*A369:* rededication AD Vienenburg (A36) – Bad Harzburger Dreieck (B6) 4.3km (1st January 2019) – ? – map


It was planned that A30 extends to Hannover. The western connection to Hannover is still planned to be upgraded to expressway standard (AADT 12,000 to 18,000 vehicles/day):

_*B65:* AS Bad Nenndorf (A2) – west of Nordgoltern 4.2km (? to > 2030?) – project – map (no planning before 2030)_
_*B65:* west of Nordgoltern – east of Everlöh 10.8km (? to >= 2030?) [1st c/w] – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B65:* west of Nordgoltern – east of Everlöh 10.8km (? to > 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (no planning before 2030)_
_*B65:* east of Everlöh – west of Empelde 2.9km (? to > 2030?) – project – map (no planning before 2030)_


Shortcut between A7 and A38 – the remaining sections are planned 3-laned only:

*B243:* AS Bad Lauterberg – AS Bad Sachsa 8.6km (October 2008 to 5th September 2014) – project – map


E44 is planned to be upgraded to 2x2 between A3 and A45. The lowest AADT is 17,000 vehicles/day.

*B49:* Landfill site Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to 20th August 2018) [direction Wetzlar] – project – map
*B49:* Landfill site Beselich – Beselich/Merenberg 3.4km (May 2011 to 5th September 2018) [direction Limburg] – project – map
_*B49:* AS Löhnberg – AS Biskirchen 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B49:* AS Biskirchen – AS Tiefenbach 3.2km (? to ?) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary – order was passed in 2013)_
*B49:* AS Tiefenbach – AS Leun 2.1km (August 2016 to 2021) – project – map
_*B49:* AS Leun – AS Solms 4.5km (? to ?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
*B49:* AS Solms – AS Oberbiel-East 3.2km (May 2010 to >= Late 2021) [~300m/~1000m in service since 2014/15] – project – map


Just a short extension of the existing B3 expressway north of Gießen / Marburg (corridor of former northern A5 extension):

_*B62:* Lahntal-Göttingen – AS Cölbe (B3) 1.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_


The eastern tangent of Frankfurt:

_*B3:* Kloppenheim – AS Massenheim-North 4.0km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
*A661:* AS Frankfurt-Friedberger Landstraße – AS Frankfurt-East 2.2km (November 2007 to 2023) [2nd c/w] – project – map


The last section (2x3) of A66 in Frankfurt. The official groundbreaking ceremony took place in 2009 but building permits are still not yet legal. Btw: The last A66 gap west of it is no longer planned.

_*A66:* AD Erlenbruch (A661) – AS Frankfurt-Bergen-Enkheim 2.6km (2020 to 2027/28) – project – map (plan approval supplement procedures ongoing – order was passed in 2007)_


Just the last A66 section south of Fulda:

*A66:* AS Neuhof-South – AS Neuhof-North 3.7km (October 2005 to 13th September 2014) – project – map


Some sections south of Frankfurt (B45 AADT is 24,000 vehicles/day, B469 18,000, B486 30,000):

_*B45:* AS Dieburg (B26) – Groß-Umstadt 5.9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_

_*B469:* AS Mainhausen (A45) – AS Stockstadt-Landfill site 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_

_*B486:* AS Langen/Mörfelden (A5) – AS Langen-West 2.1km (>= 2020 to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


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## MichiH

*Regional or smaller projects (southwest)*

A small tangent north of Saarbrücken. Planned for a long time but not likely to be built anytime soon.

_*A1:* Saarbrücken-North – Saarbrücken-Ludwigsberg (A623) 3.2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


Route from Saarbrücken and Luxembourg. The first carriageway was opened in 1984. AADT is about 22,000 vehicles/day now.

*A8:* east of AS Merzig-Wellingen – east of Walbrücke 1.5km (April 2015 to August 2018) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*A8:* east of Walbrücke – AS Merzig-Schwemlingen 2.0km (April 2015 to October 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map


Instead of completing A8 from Saarbrücken to Karlsruhe, it's planned to upgrade existing B10 to expressway standard.

*B10:* Walmersbach – AS Hinterweidenthal 2.5km (June 2010 to 30th October 2015) – project – map
*B10:* AS Hinterweidenthal – east of Hinterweidenthal 1.3km (September 2013 to Late 2019) – project – map
_*B10:* AS Hinterweidenthal – AS Hauenstein 6.9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B10:* AS Hauenstein – AS Rinnthal 6.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B10:* AS Rinnthal – AS Annweiler-East 5.2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B10:* AS Annweiler-East – AS Godramstein 7.3km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
*B10:* AS Godramstein – AS Landau-North (A65) 4.1km (November 2018 to 2025) [2nd c/w] – project – map


West-east connection from A61 to A67 and A5 which contains the only Rhine bridge between Mainz and Mannheim.

*B47:* AS Worms (A61) – AS Worms-West 2.1km (May 2016 to Mid 2017) [2nd c/w] – project – map
*B47:* AS Worms-West – AS Worms-Horchheimer Straße 1.1km (August 2016 to Late 2019) – project – map
*B47:* AS Worms-Horchheimer Straße – AS Worms-South 1.2km (February 2018 to 2022) – project – map
_*B47:* AS Rosengarten-West – east of Rosengarten 3.6km (? to ?) – project – map (court hearing not yet scheduled – order was passed in 2015)_
*B47:* east of Rosengarten – east of AS Bürstadt (B44) 2.6km (December 2018 to August 2020) [2nd c/w] – project – map
_*B47:* east of AS Bürstadt (B44) – AS Bürstadt-East 2.6km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary – order was passed in 1971)_
_*B47:* AS Bürstadt-East – west of AS Lorch-West 3.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


A full 4-laned expressway is planned in the former A60 corridor from Beligum to Rhine-Main area (E42). The famous Hochmosel viaduct should be completed this year. The last sections are:

*B50:* AK Wittlich – AS Platten 5.4km (May 2003 to 15th December 2014) – project – map
*B50:* AS Platten – east of AS Lösnich 19.9km (July 2009 to Mid 2019) – project – map
_*B50:* east of AS Lösnich – Wederath 3km (? to <= 2030?) – ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B50:* Wederath – Hirschfeld 7km (? to <= 2030?) – ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B50:* Hirschfeld – AS Lautzenhausen 4km (? to <= 2030?) – ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Just a short bypass in the corridor of the formerly planned A31

*B266:* AS Bad Neuenahr (A573) – AS Bad Neuenahr-East 1.8km (February 2009 to 12th October 2018) – project – map
_*B266:* north of AS Ehlingen (A571) – west of Bad Bodendorf 2.4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


More projects in the southwest:

_*A60:* east of AS Winterspelt – north of AS Prüm 18.2km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (no demand anymore)_

_*A62:* south of AS Bann – south of AS Weselberg 9.3km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (no demand anymore)_
*A62:* south of AS Weselberg – Schwarzbach viaduct 3.6km (September 2013 to Late September 2014) [2nd c/w] – ? – map
_*A62:* Schwarzbach viaduct – AS Pirmasens 6.0km (? to ?) [2nd c/w] – ? – map (no demand anymore)_

_*A64:* east of AS Trier – north of Biewertal viaduct 0.9km (>= Mid 2019 to ?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval supplement procedure necessary – order was passed in 1977)_
_*B51:* AS Igel (A64) – AS Igel (B49) 4km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


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## MichiH

*Regional or smaller projects (Bavaria)*

Bavaria is the state with the highest increase in population. It has the "fastest" road authority and the current and two previous Federal Minster of Transport are from Bavaria. I consider A94 as an important bigger project, see above, all other new roads are just called "Bundesstraßen", not Autobahns:

B2 connects Nuremberg to Augsburg. It was planned to be A77 but the existing B2 is only upgraded by bypasses and 2x2 sections just south of Nuremberg. The rest is 2+1 or is mostly planned to be upgraded to 2+1:

*B2:* AS Roth-Otto-Lilienthal-Kaserne – south of Untersteinbach 3.3km (October 2012 to 5th December 2014) – project – map
*B2:* south of Untersteinach – AS Mauk 4.1km (December 2016 to Late 2019) – project – map


Eastern Augsburg bypass:

_*B2:* AS Friedberg (A8) – AS Friedberg (B300) 5.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B2:* AS Friedberg (B300) – north of Kissing 4.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B2:* north of Kissing – west of Mering 7.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B2:* west of Mering – AS Oberrottmarshausen (B17) 8.0km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


Southern extension of A95 Munich – Garmisch-Partenkirchen:

_*B2:* south of AS Eschenlohe – AS Oberau-North 3.8km (2021? to ?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_
*B2:* AS Oberau-North – AS Oberau-South 4.2km (September 2015 to Late 2021) – project – map


Shortcut between A7 and A96:

_*B12:* AS Kempten (A7) – AS Jengen/Kaufbeuren (A96) 51.4km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] [split into 6 sections] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Landshut will be a 4-laned eastern bypass (southern bypass 3-laned only). In addition, the north-south route through the town will be upgraded (BMW plant) and a short section in the east is planned to be upgraded:

_*B299:* AS Landshut-North (A92) – Landshut-Schönbrunn 4.6km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B15:* AS Landshut/Essenbach (A92) – AS Altheim 1.3km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
*B15n:* AS Ergoldsbach – AS Essenbach (A92) 9.0km (August 2013 to Late 2019) – project – map
_*B15n:* AS Essenbach (A92) – AS Landshut-Auloh 2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B15n:* AS Landshut-Auloh – AS Landshut-East (B299) 9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


B16 south of Ingolstadt is planned to be upgraded to expressway standard. In addition, almost the entire B16 from Günzburg (A8) to Ingolstadt should be upgraded to minimum 2+1. Some sections east of Ingolstadt too (total length about 150km):

_*B16:* AS Manching (A9) – AS Manching-West (B13) 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B16:* AS Manching-West (B13) – AS Zell 16.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B16:* AS Zell – AS Neuburg-South 4.7km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Route from Furth im Wald at the border to Czechia to the south (northern sections up to the border are 2+1):

_*B20:* AS Chameregg (B85) – AS Cham-Mitte (B22) 2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B20:* AS Cham-Mitte (B22) – AS Cham-South (B85) 2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B20:* AS Cham-South (B85) – AS Straubing (A3) 29.9km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B20:* AS Straubing (A3) – AS Landau (A92) 29.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Route from Amberg (A6) to Furth im Wald at the border to Czechia:

*B85:* AS Schafhof – AS Freihölz 2.5km (June 2017 to Mid July 2018) – project – map
_*B85:* AS Pittersburg – AS Schwandorf-West 2.6km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B85:* AS Schwandorf-West – AS Schwandorf-North (A93) 5.2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B85:* Wackersdorf – west of Neubäu 20km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
*B85:* AS Neubäu-West – AS Neubäu-East 4.0km (November 2015 to 16th November 2018) [1st c/w] – project – map
_*B85:* AS Neubäu-West – AS Neubäu-East 4.0km (? to >= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B85:* AS Neubäu-East – AS Altenkreith (B16) 7km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B85:* AS Altenkreith (B16) – east of Altenkreith 5.5km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
*B85:* east of Altenkreith – east of Regen bridge 1.7km (July 2017 to 2019) – project – map
*B85:* east of Regen bridge – Pliendling 1.7km (July 2017 to 2021) – project – map
*B85:* Piendling – Untertraubenbach 3.2km (March 2014 to 28th October 2016) – project – map


Road to Kronach (AADT 10,000 to 21,000 vehicles/day):

_*B173:* east of AS Lichtenfels-East – AS Michelau 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) [2nd c/w] – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B173:* AS Michelau – east of AS Zettlitz 8.0km (2019? to <= 2030?) – project – map (appeals were rejected in December 2018)_
_*B173:* east of AS Zettlitz – Oberlangenstadt 3.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B173:* AS Küps-North (B303) – AS Neuses 2.9km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (court hearing not yet scheduled – order was passed in 2016)_


Just a short upgrade south of Schweinfurt, the sections up to A3 are planned to be upgraded to 2+1:

*B286:* AS Schweinfurt-Center (A70) – AS Schwebheim 3.1km (July 2017 to 2020) [2nd c/w] – project – map


The future expressway from Augsburg to Ingolstadt is in the corridor of formerly planned A90. Other sections should be upgraded to 2+1:

*B300:* AS Dasing (A8) – AS Gallenbach 1.5km (October 2014 to 21st September 2018) – project – map
*B300:* AS Gallenbach – AS Aichach-West 2.7km (October 2014 to 11th October 2017) – project – map
_*B300:* AS Aichach-West – AS Kühbach-East 12.1km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


Western extension of the Czech D6 (E48). It was planned to upgrade B303 from A9 to A93 and further to the Czech border but traffic did decrease since A6 was opened. Only the Schirnding bypass is left in the demand plan but only because building permits were already available.

*B303:* east of AS Schirnding-West – west of AS Schirnding-East 2.5km (July 2017 to Late 2020) [2nd c/w] – project – map
_*B303:* west of AS Schirnding-East – D/CZ Border (Schirnding) 1.6km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


Eastern bypass of Holzkirchen south of Munich:

*B318:* AS Holzkirchen (A8) – AS Holzkirchen 1.5km (June 2017 to Mid 2019) – project – map
_*B318:* AS Holzkirchen – AS Sufferloh 3.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_


More projects north of Munich. I think the region is the most growing region in Germany. B471 runs parallel to A99. B301/B388 are the direct connection to the Airport:

_*B301:* AS Freising-Mitte (A92) – AS Airport Munich 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B301:* AS Airport Munich – north of Hallbergmoos 2km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_
_*B388:* AS Ismaning (B471) – AS Fischerhäuser (B301) 3.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B471:* AS Buchenau-South – AS Fürstenfeldbruck-East 6.2km (? to > 2030?) – project – map (no planning before 2030)_
_*B471:* AS Fürstenfeldbruck-East – AS Esting 3.5km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B471:* AS Esting – AS Geiselbullach 3.8km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B471:* AS Dachau-East – AS Oberschleißheim (A92) 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B471:* Hochbrück-West (B13) – Hochbrück-East 2.2km (? to <= 2030?) [grade-separted?] – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B471:* Garching – AS Ismaning (B388) 3.0km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B471:* AS Ismaning (B388) – south of AS Ismaning-East 4.2km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_


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## MichiH

*Regional or smaller projects (east)*

The realignment near Jena was the final section of A4 in eastern Germany leading to southern Poland

*A4:* AS Magdala – AS Jena-Göschwitz 11.8km (May 2007 to 30th October 2014) [direction Erfurt] – project – map
*A4:* AS Magdala – AS Jena-Göschwitz 11.8km (May 2007 to 18th November 2014) [direction Dresden; discontinuation: 12.6km] – project – map


This was the final section of A71:

*A71:* Etzleben – AS Sömmerda-East 11.4km (June 2010 to 3rd September 2015) – project – map


Last sections of A72 from Chemnitz to Leipzig:

*A72:* south of AS Borna-North – AS Borna-North 1.0km (July 2013 to 30th June 2018) – project – map
*A72:* AS Borna-North – AS Rötha 8.5km (July 2013 to Late 2019) – project – map
*A72:* AS Rötha – AK Leipzig (A38) 7.2km (November 2018 to Late 2026) – project – map


The city Autobahn of Berlin. It's not intended to close the ring. The last planned sections are:

*A100:* AD Neukölln – AS Am Treptower Park 3.2km (May 2013 to 2022) – project – map
_*A100:* AS Am Treptower Park – AS Frankfurter Allee (B1/B5) 3.1km (? to <= 2030?) [2x3]– ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*A100:* AS Frankfurter Allee (B1/B5) – Storkower Straße 1.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2x2]– ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


Extension of an expressway north of Berlin (E251, AADT 18,000 vehicles/day).

_*B96:* Löwenberg-West (B167) – AS Oranienburg-North 13.6km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure in progress)_


Extension of an expressway south of Berlin (last gap closed, AADT 14,000 vehicles/day):

*B101:* AS Thyrow – AS Trebbin-North 5.0km (May 2015 to 14th December 2018) – project – map


Western bypass of Halle in Saxony-Anhalt. The first sections were opened in 2003/04. It completes the ring around Leipzig and Halle.

_*A143:* AD Halle-North (A14) – AS Halle-Neustadt 12.4km (2020 to 2025) – project – map (court hearing May 2019 – final order was passed in April 2018)_


Expressway east of Leipzig which was planned to be A16 (AADT 8,000 vehicles/day).

_*B87:* AS Leipzig-Mitte (A14) – AS Eilenburg (B107) 18.7km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


Extension of an expressway north of Zwickau (VW plant):

*B175:* north of AS Mosel (B93) – AS Mosel-VW 1km (May 2016 to 9th November 2018) – ? – map
_*B175:* AS Mosel-VW – Glauchau-Waldenburger Straße 4.5km (2019 to <= 2030?) – project – map_


Planned expressway upgrade between Erfurt and Weimar parallel to 2x3 A4, AADT 10,000 vehicles/day (western section) and 16,000 (eastern section)

_*B7:* AS Mönchholzhausen – AS Nohra 6.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (very low chance for construction start before 2030)_
_*B7:* AS Nohra – AS Weimar-West 4.3km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


B247 connects A38 to A4 in western Thuringia:

_*B247:* AS Mühlhausen/Weinbergen (B249) – AS Großengottern-West ~4km (2020 to Early 2023) – ? – map (PPP profitability check ongoing)_
_*B247:* AS Großengottern-West – AS Schönstedt-East ~7km (2020 to Early 2023) – ? – map (PPP profitability check ongoing)_

_*B247:* south of Gotha – AS Gotha (A4) 2.1km (? to > 2030?) – project – map (no planning before 2030)_
_*B247:* AS Gotha (A4) – south of Schwabhausen 4.1km (? to <= 2030?) – project – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_
_*B247:* south of Schwabhausen – Ohrdruf-North 3.4km (? to > 2030?) – project – map (no planning before 2030)_


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## belerophon

MichiH it might start an unwanted discussion maybe, but i want you to issue a kind of opinion about the projects you covered. For single ones, there might be others with better experience, but for this broad range nobody has i guess. So for me it seems logical, that someone who dealt whith the "facts" so deeply might have his own thoughts. I don't want you to systematically talk about the different topics possible (there are many). But if i read your statements, what hinders construction, you might have an opinion if those arguments are more or less valued. And those of us, who live next to a motorway in construction etc. just have their local view. I for example try to be up to date for bigger saxonian projects. But the comparison, that there is much more need for construction in the western states came to me here. I did travel to many locations, but not on a daily basis. So i found thar A4 got worse as soon as to enter Hessen, but i had no big picture.

So i ask you just to tell what came in your mind. My feelings are that the Ostseeautobahn (baltic sea motorway) might be most useful as Hamburg ringroad, more than elsewhere (trivial thought). Also A14 would be useful in 2+1 i think, western connection of Hamburg and Wolfsburg is economically more important as to come afterwards... but this is also trivial... 

I have a minor illness now and read all your coverage which pleases me very much at itself. TY.


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## HarlingenHardest

*B29 OU Mögglingen*

A little impression of Mögglingen bypass (eastside), part of B29 between Stuttgart & Aalen (Baden-Württemberg). Video was taken in december. Correct me if i'm wrong, opening is scheduled for April this year.


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## MichiH

belerophon said:


> MichiH it might start an unwanted discussion maybe,


No. I think discussion is always welcome except if it's getting too political...



belerophon said:


> but i want you to issue a kind of opinion about the projects you covered.


sure.



belerophon said:


> For single ones, there might be others with better experience, but for this broad range nobody has i guess.


yep, I intensely follow German Autobahn projects for more than 10 years now.



belerophon said:


> So for me it seems logical, that someone who dealt whith the "facts" so deeply might have his own thoughts.


Well, it started because I wanted to know why the hell my local A3 was not yet widened to 2x3 about 20 years after I read about it for the first time as a pupil. Is my Autobahn the worst? Most congested? Lowest road standard? Only project with that slow progress?



belerophon said:


> I don't want you to systematically talk about the different topics possible (there are many).


Well, I have an opinion about many projects - minimum all new Autobahn projects - but I'm not always familar with all details.



belerophon said:


> But if i read your statements, what hinders construction,


The questions are: What has lead to the current situation? What has been done to improve it? Why is it catching up so slowly?



belerophon said:


> you might have an opinion if those arguments are more or less valued.


More or less valued? Do you mean "important" or "appreciated"?



belerophon said:


> And those of us, who live next to a motorway in construction etc. just have their local view.


MY A3 is also u/c for 2x3 widening since 1980s :lol: But the end is near... To be followed by 2x4 widening near Frankfurt/Offenbach.... :lol:



belerophon said:


> I for example try to be up to date for bigger saxonian projects. But the comparison, that there is much more need for construction in the western states came to me here.


You don't think that A4 at Dresden should be widened to 2x4?



belerophon said:


> I did travel to many locations, but not on a daily basis. So i found thar A4 got worse as soon as to enter Hessen, but i had no big picture.


Sure, because the focus was on new five land from 1990. I think it was right to widen A4 to 2x3 instead of just renovate it and realign A4 where it was appropriate (Eisenach, Jena). The same happens to A4 in Hesse now. Just much later...



belerophon said:


> So i ask you just to tell what came in your mind.


About what?



belerophon said:


> My feelings are that the Ostseeautobahn (baltic sea motorway) might be most useful as Hamburg ringroad, more than elsewhere (trivial thought).


A ringroad? You suggest a ring road close to the city of Hamburg instead of a remote northern bypass? Not sure...



belerophon said:


> Also A14 would be useful in 2+1 i think, western connection of Hamburg and Wolfsburg is economically more important as to come afterwards... but this is also trivial...


Not sure that I got you right: You would build A39 with motorway standard and A14 2+1 only? I agree that A39 is more important and could relieve the congested parallel A7 (which is planned to be widened to 2x3 north of A27 and 2x4 south of A27). I also prefer two alternative routes instead of just widen one route. Even 2x5 for A7 is stupid in my opinion because if there's an accident or a construction site, you always need to drive this route. With A39 you will have an alternative for long-distance traffic.

A14 is supposed to develop the region too. And I think if you build a new road for minimum 15,000 vehicles, you should directly build it 2x2. A39+A14+B190 are called "H" variant (two parallel Autobahns with a "-" connection). The "X" variant like A61/A63 in RP was the favorit on the German forum back then before the first section was build...

But I'm not sure if you want me to go into details with these projects?



belerophon said:


> I have a minor illness now and read all your coverage which pleases me very much at itself. TY.


What? I don't get want you mean...


Back to my questions "what hinders construction" without evaluating it / rate it:

What has lead to the current situation?

The so-called Fall of the Berlin Wall! The reunification of Germany. Money was sent "to the east". Western Germany got less budget than needed. Constructions were postponed - like widening of my A3. VDE - Transportation Projects German Unification - was the thing.

State authorities itself had to save money in 1990s and 2000s. Only Bavaria didn't reduce their staff. Of course, it led to longer planning procedures and construction sites. It wasn't a big issue till late 2000s because budget was also low. We feared that the plan approval orders will get invalid because no construction works could be started within 10 years after dismissing last complaints. It was only possible to extend the validity by another 5 years. We asked whether it might be possible to extend it again. Especially in Baden-Württemberg. They built "Soda" bridges* that the plan approval order remained valid because it cannot expire if "construction works have been started". And building a small bridge was a start...

*A bridge which is build without function.

What has been done to improve it?

Truck toll was introduced and income is allowed to be used for road infrastructure only.

Do you remember the "Konjunkturpaket" from 2008/09? We were so happy that road infrastructure got more money in the recession period. Finally more money! And road infrastructure got finally more and more money with every annual federal budget in 2010. Big increase in %.
And state's do finally advertise new jobs (they want more employees).

Why is it catching up so slowly?

When the truck toll was introduced, the federal road infrastructure budget remained the same. The income was compensated by less money from taxes.
The additional money in 2010s cannot be spend because there are still too less employees in road authorities. The market is empty. Private companies pay more. In addition "EU laws" are updated and long-term planning procedures end up in revising documents again and again. I think other EU countries might have the same problem but it's simpler to challenge German plan approval orders. Verbandsklagerecht (right for organizations to challenge). German nature conservation organizations love it...
Road authorities wanna observe construction sites in detail. Sure, it's their job. They make the final execution planning themelves and do usually tender small lots (so that small local companies can compete). If there's just one complaint against awarding a small contract at the end of the project, the whole project is delayed....

I could write much more but I'm not sure what you wanna know. Maybe I got you wrong........


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## ChrisZwolle

*A281 Bremen*

An official 'first sod' ceremony has been held today in Bremen for the construction of a 5 kilometer segment of A281, which includes the tunnel under the Weser River. 

>> https://www.butenunbinnen.de/nachri...baubeginn-stadtautobahn-autobahnring-100.html

It is the northern section on this map:


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## Ni3lS

MichiH said:


> Let's have a look at Baden-Württemberg.


Many thanks for the detailed overview! To BW I can only say.. oh what could have been  The sad part is that public transport in BW doesn't even come close to compensating for the congested road network. A lot of NIMBY and 0 solution.


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## Ni3lS

By the way did anyone read about this? https://www.augsburger-allgemeine.d...A8-waehrend-sie-im-Stau-steht-id53132626.html 

Traffic was so bad on A8 near Ulm last night that people had to stay in their car overnight and were given blankets. When picking up the blankets again in the morning they found a woman that passed away in her car.


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## HarlingenHardest

*A33 Halle (Westfalen)*

This afternoon +/- 5 kilometer of A33 opened near Halle (Westfalen):

https://www.westfalen-blatt.de/OWL/Kreis-Guetersloh/Halle/3611638-Das-vorletzte-Teilstueck-suedlich-von-Halle-ist-von-Freitag-an-befahrbar-mit-Video-5-4-Kilometer-naeher-am-Lueckenschluss-der-A33

^Video in link included.

Approximately 10 km. left when it comes to the final piece Osnabrück (A30) <-> Wünnenberg Haaren interchange (A44) (Halle (Westf.)-Borgholzhausen). Scheduled to open end of 2019. From that moment on there will be a Autobahn link in South Lower Saxony/Ostwestfalen (Nord Rhine Westphalia East) between the 'big' cities (Osnabrück - Bielefeld - Paderborn).


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## ChrisZwolle

*A44 Kassel*

A44 in Kassel is closed to trucks over 3.5 tons due to repairs at the Berghäuser Brücke over the Fulda River Valley. A weigh station is being installed there. 

Trucks have crashed here:

Monday evening:









Saturday evening:


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## ChrisZwolle

*A70 Thurnau - Neudrossenfeld*

A section of A70 between Thurnau and Neudrossenfeld is in serious problems, it was originally built as two-lane B505 in the 1950s and expanded to four lanes in the early 1990s to become A70. 

However this portion was built on an unstable slope, movement occurred directly after opening the motorway, with significant mitigation between 1991 and 1994. It began to slide again in the early 2000s. It is in serious risk of sliding down the slope entirely, so they are now planning to move the entire motorway 120 meters to the north, on a more uphill location. 

A draft approval was released in November 2018. They hope to start construction in 2020. It concerns a 4 km section of A70 immediately east of the (unrelated) Friesentalbrücke replacement in Thurnau.

They do have some kind of contingent plan in case the slope slides so much that the motorway becomes impassable.

>> News report: https://www.infranken.de/regional/k...nau-und-neudrossenfeld-verlegt;art312,3982248

>> draft plan: http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...schiebung_thurnau/u1_erlaeuterungsbericht.pdf


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## ChrisZwolle

*A94 München - Passau*

Remember the 350 meter long Ornautalbrücke of A94 that had to be demolished due to a construction error? They have already rebuilt it in six months! See, Germans are capable of building bridges quickly, you just need the private sector in and throw the government out of it... :cheers:

>> https://www.pnp.de/lokales/landkrei...94-Bruecke-in-Oberbayern-wird-abgerissen.html

>> https://www.ovb-online.de/muehldorf/a94-kaputte-bruecke-fast-fertig-11294781.html


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## g.spinoza

> *Church advocates speed limit on highways.*
> 
> _The Evangelical Church in Central Germany (EKM) wants to enforce a speed limit of 130 kilometers per hour on motorways with a petition._


https://www.evangelisch.de/inhalte/154641/15-01-2019/kirche-plaediert-fuer-tempolimit-auf-autobahnen

:shocked:


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## General Maximus

^^ I know Christians as being very frightened drivers on the road. Any speeds above 80, and they can't get through to Jesus...


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## ChrisZwolle

People with the ichthys symbol on their car are often slow drivers... 










Cars with this symbol seem to be much less common than 10 years ago though.


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## MichiH

^^ From today: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutsch...limit-und-hoehere-Dieselsteuer-strikt-ab.html

Federal Ministry of Transport, Mr. Scheuer: "Gegen jeden Menschenverstand" - "preposterous to common sense"

The speed limit was recently suggested by a commission of the Federal government.


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## belerophon

Well no one could better say what is beyond common sense than him. He knows very well.


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## M-NL

ChrisZwolle said:


> People with the ichthys symbol on their car are often slow drivers...


In my experience people with an ichthys symbol on their car more often behave very unpredictable in traffic at any speed in any situation.

As for a general speed limit in Germany: It's not speed itself that is dangerous, it is speed difference. When you are driving at 120 km/h an upcoming vehicle at 200+ km/h will go from dot in your mirror to your rear bumper in seconds.
A fixed speed limit that is set to low, will only cause more accidents, because of bored and distracted drivers.
Introducing a maximum overtaking speed difference limit of say 80 km/h instead, would in effect create a speed limit of 160 km/h on 2 lane per direction autobahns and 200 km/h on 3 lane autobahns, but still allow for unlimited speed as long as you are not overtaking.


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## Attus

^^ You're arguing so as of having a general speed limit would be something beyond every imagination with not any experience of it anywhere in the world


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## g.spinoza

M-NL said:


> In my experience people with an ichthys symbol on their car more often behave very unpredictable in traffic at any speed in any situation.
> 
> As for a general speed limit in Germany: It's not speed itself that is dangerous, it is speed difference. When you are driving at 120 km/h an upcoming vehicle at 200+ km/h will go from dot in your mirror to your rear bumper in seconds.
> A fixed speed limit that is set to low, will only cause more accidents, because of bored and distracted drivers.


It may be somewhat true, but not in all situations. Imagine a car going 130 overtaking another going 120, but for some reasons they crash: the same situation but with cars going 210 and 200, I bet it would be different.


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## rudiwien

M-NL said:


> Introducing a maximum overtaking speed difference limit of say 80 km/h instead, would in effect create a speed limit of 160 km/h on 2 lane per direction autobahns and 200 km/h on 3 lane autobahns, but still allow for unlimited speed as long as you are not overtaking.


Unless cars will be equipped with sensors to measure other vehicle's speed, this will be not practical.. And also not easily enforceable, so likely not attractive to anyone..


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## belerophon

MichiH said:


> The realignment near Jena was the final section of A4 in eastern Germany leading to southern Poland
> 
> 
> 
> Last sections of A72 from Chemnitz to Leipzig:
> 
> *A72:* south of AS Borna-North – AS Borna-North 1.0km (July 2013 to 30th June 2018) – project – map
> *A72:* AS Borna-North – AS Rötha 8.5km (July 2013 to Late 2019) –
> 
> *A100:* AD Neukölln – AS Am Treptower Park 3.2km (May 2013 to 2022) – project – map
> _*A100:* AS Frankfurter Allee (B1/B5) – Storkower Straße 1.0km (? to <= 2030?) [2x2]– ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_


I know that the resistance is to high to close the ring. But what is about the section in between of Treptower Park and Frankfurter Allee? The Markgrafendamm/Gürtelstraße is not capable of the traffic if it is once found in between of two pieces of motorway, but most important, the crossing of Ostbahn (railway) is missing.




> Expressway east of Leipzig which was planned to be A16 (AADT 8,000 vehicles/day).
> 
> _*B87:* AS Leipzig-Mitte (A14) – AS Eilenburg (B107) 18.7km (? to >= 2030?) – project – map (construction start after 2030)_


Were there plans to built this expressway to Leipzig-East before? There are more villages so the northern variant might be less fought...


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## [atomic]

belerophon said:


> I know that the resistance is to high to close the ring. But what is about the section in between of Treptower Park and Frankfurter Allee? The Markgrafendamm/Gürtelstraße is not capable of the traffic if it is once found in between of two pieces of motorway, but most important, the crossing of Ostbahn (railway) is missing.


Part of Section 17 is the Spree crossing and a double Deck Tunnel under Ostkreuz station. Wiki map
There won't be a random 1km piece of motorway, when this will all be finished who knows.. 



> Were there plans to built this expressway to Leipzig-East before? There are more villages so the northern variant might be less fought...


Since it is part of the upgrade of B87 between Luckau/A13 and A14/A9 and other infrastructure near Leipzig like the Airport it only makes sense to connect it farther West than at east Leipzig you can see the alignment on this Map quite well (in orange).


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## MichiH

belerophon said:


> I know that the resistance is to high to close the ring. But what is about the section in between of Treptower Park and Frankfurter Allee? The Markgrafendamm/Gürtelstraße is not capable of the traffic if it is once found in between of two pieces of motorway, but most important, the crossing of Ostbahn (railway) is missing.


Sorry, I think I've removed the line by accident:

_*A100:* AS Am Treptower Park – AS Frankfurter Allee (B1/B5) 3.1km (? to <= 2030?) [2x3]– ? – map (plan approval procedure not yet started)_

Added now.




belerophon said:


> Were there plans to built this expressway to Leipzig-East before? There are more villages so the northern variant might be less fought...


A16 was planned to start at AD Parthenaue by 2003. It was changed to B87 from Leipzig-Mitte in 2004. The BVWP 2003 had A16, the Bedarfsplan 2004 had B87n.

BVWP = statutory rule of the Federal Government
Bedarfsplan = law


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## belerophon

MichiH said:


> More or less valued? Do you mean "important" or "appreciated"?


Well yes. Better would have been: Arguments SHOULD be more ore less valued. Do they have value? There are always a lot of arguments. No one with any opinion about an upcoming project is without arguments. I recently heard the saying: "All have a lot of answers, no one has any questions...." So it depends whom you listen to, you might find both sides plausible... Thats why it is useful not only to say: I want this bridge etc. being built (thats easy) but to do do some weighting of the lot of better and worse arguments used...



MichiH said:


> You don't think that A4 at Dresden should be widened to 2x4?


Well there is a difference aqbout what i like to see happen, and what is useful. This is a place where we discuss construction. We like to see something going on. But in the real world funds are always scarce. So i get a red face when it is told that there is no need to improve A4. But if i think about where the need is bigger i would start in the west i think. There is a lot more to do. Also i would tend to smaller projects. Every politician want to open a motorway. That does not make it more useful. If i compare how much you could improve smaller roads for the same money it hits me. That does not mean that i don't get shining eyes whenever a big project is done. But it should not be about feelings... My brother, my aunt and several other relatives live in Dresden. They or me/us use this very stretch very often, and it is no fun. It is correct afaic that the AADT is not such high, because it is only crowded on friday afternoon (mostly) in comparison to other stretches, who "suffer" round the week. But no matter if its empty in later evening and most days is comfortable driving, that won't help you if you are stuck on friday...




MichiH said:


> Sure, because the focus was on new five land from 1990. I think it was right to widen A4 to 2x3 instead of just renovate it and realign A4 where it was appropriate (Eisenach, Jena). The same happens to A4 in Hesse now. Just much later...


Yes that was a good idea. I just wanted to highlight, that i did not know that there is such a difference to the west, and such a urgent need there.


----------



## belerophon

M-NL said:


> In my experience people with an ichthys symbol on their car more often behave very unpredictable in traffic at any speed in any situation.
> 
> As for a general speed limit in Germany: It's not speed itself that is dangerous, it is speed difference. When you are driving at 120 km/h an upcoming vehicle at 200+ km/h will go from dot in your mirror to your rear bumper in seconds.
> A fixed speed limit that is set to low, will only cause more accidents, because of bored and distracted drivers.
> Introducing a maximum overtaking speed difference limit of say 80 km/h instead, would in effect create a speed limit of 160 km/h on 2 lane per direction autobahns and 200 km/h on 3 lane autobahns, but still allow for unlimited speed as long as you are not overtaking.


I felt much safer in other western countries, with limit, no matter if the roads were as smooth. Switzerland for example. The fees are high so eceryone drives nice. I really liked that. You are not as fast, but you reach your destination with less stress.

I don't care if the limit would be 160. But to have none at all is as stupid as our beloved minister. I don't think it is possible to control a speed limit for overtaking. But it could be lower at day and higher at night for example. And it must be enforced. 

There is a trend to higher limits (140 in Poland and Bulgaria). So i think 120 or 130 everywhere everytime will just cause bitterness. I dont want that. But something like 160 is a good basis for me.


----------



## belerophon

[atomic] said:


> Since it is part of the upgrade of B87 between Luckau/A13 and A14/A9 and other infrastructure near Leipzig like the Airport it only makes sense to connect it farther West than at east Leipzig you can see the alignment on this Map quite well (in orange).


Yes, i looked up those maps coming with Bundesverkehrswegeplan for all of Saxony and beyond. My question was, if there were other plans before, but i might be mistaken. I save what i can get, but it's only a thought i can't prove 

Ah well MichiH gave the answer already. TY, Sometimes i doubt my own memory


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The lack of a speed limit results in some behavior you don't see as much in other countries: for example people storming down onto other cars with 180 km/h and brake hard at the very last moment to almost drive them off the left lane. Or in busy traffic, people flooring it from 120 > 160 in every 300 meter gap of traffic. 

You really notice this difference when you enter Denmark from Germany. Traffic behavior changes quite significantly after entering Denmark, suddenly all those drivers are capable of just setting the cruise control to 130 km/h.


----------



## snowdog

Its what makes driving in Germany interesting.
Danish are arguably the most annoying drivers in Europe, worse than Dutch... Every time I see a Danish plated car around here they drive around like they have the time in the world, so annoying!


Sleep inducing driving vs active driving where things actually happen that require your attention. It's what (imho) also made driving in Greece much more interesting. I absolutely loathe the Western EU (mainly NL, UK, and Scandinavian) driving culture. Germany luckily doesn't fall in that group, though the ''middle lane hogging'' there is getting worse. There are no *******s luckily that react aggressively if you flash that you want to overtake, even outside of the autobahn, people move over for you to make overtaking more easy/pleasant. Something that doesn't exist in NL for example, people will rather flash you for ''why are you overtaking'' or actually try to annoy/frustrate faster drivers.

Also the difference between rush hour drivers and other drivers is smaller in DE imho, in NL, people who drive around 7-9.30 am and 16-19.00 are a different breed (they usually drive along nicely) than those outside of those hours or weekends (which are more likely inconsiderate slowpokes ).


----------



## Wilhem275

M-NL said:


> Introducing a maximum overtaking speed difference limit of say 80 km/h instead, would in effect create a speed limit of 160 km/h on 2 lane per direction autobahns and 200 km/h on 3 lane autobahns, but still allow for unlimited speed as long as you are not overtaking.



This is basically how I drive. 170-180 with no traffic around or at least one free lane in between, but slowing down if there's slow traffic to pass close by.
Of course this implies it's impossible to keep that pace if traffic becomes more dense, as it would require a continuous 180-120-180-120... no sense at all.


I understand that in Germany that's a common behaviour instead, supported by the "I can so I must" culture surrounding the Autobahn myth.




I support the idea of a maximum speed differential also because I find more stressful to drive in a traffic moving at an homogeneous speed. There's a constant need to adapt to minor changes around, and it gives less perception that the absolute speed is still high.


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## M-NL

rudiwien said:


> Unless cars will be equipped with sensors to measure other vehicle's speed, this will be not practical.. And also not easily enforceable, so likely not attractive to anyone..


Any car with autopilot function can already do that. For enforcement you just need to be able to calibrate those systems, so that the measurements are admissible for legal purposes.


----------



## geogregor

snowdog said:


> Its what makes driving in Germany interesting.
> Danish are arguably the most annoying drivers in Europe, worse than Dutch... Every time I see a Danish plated car around here they drive around like they have the time in the world, so annoying!
> 
> 
> Sleep inducing driving vs active driving where things actually happen that require your attention. It's what (imho) also made driving in Greece much more interesting. I absolutely loathe the Western EU (mainly NL, UK, and Scandinavian) driving culture. Germany luckily doesn't fall in that group, though the ''middle lane hogging'' there is getting worse. There are no *******s luckily that react aggressively if you flash that you want to overtake, even outside of the autobahn, people move over for you to make overtaking more easy/pleasant. Something that doesn't exist in NL for example, people will rather flash you for ''why are you overtaking'' or actually try to annoy/frustrate faster drivers.
> 
> Also the difference between rush hour drivers and other drivers is smaller in DE imho, in NL, people who drive around 7-9.30 am and 16-19.00 are a different breed (they usually drive along nicely) than those outside of those hours or weekends (which are more likely inconsiderate slowpokes ).


With all the respect but you sound like one of those annoying drivers I would gladly eliminate off the roads.

Full of himself "master of the road", anyone slower than our racing king is a "slowpoke". hno:

I could use stronger language but I resist.


----------



## MattiG

M-NL said:


> Any car with autopilot function can already do that. For enforcement you just need to be able to calibrate those systems, so that the measurements are admissible for legal purposes.


Yes, but... They are quite sensitive to rain, fog and snow. There is lot of work ahead to make them reliable to the level an autopilot requires. They are nice gadgets as driver's assistants, but far from devices taking the control.

As the beam of a radar is a straight line, the problems easily arise on windy roads and narrow lanes. Therefore, I do not believe the existing gadgets will be the long-term solutions. Instead, I believe in transponders used in the air and marine traffic. Such an active beacon can deliver more granular information about the car, like its position, speed, heading, etc to be received by the other cars.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A66 Wiesbaden*

Another day, another bridge problem..

The _Salzbachtalbrücke_ of A66 at Wiesbaden is being replaced. To carry traffic through construction, the northern bridge half has been converted to a three-lane setup, with one reversible lane. This is absolutely necessary to carry the 80,000 vehicles per day across the bridge.

Now the contractor has damaged the rebar of the bridge by drilling too deep into the concrete, compromising the bridge capacity. There is no risk for collapse, but they have reduced traffic to a single lane in each direction and are going to ban trucks from A66 for a long time.

Hessen Mobil press release: https://mobil.hessen.de/pressemitte...eute-nacht-mit-nur-noch-einem-fahrstreifen-je


----------



## cinxxx

^^I googled that bridge to see where it is and it even has reviews on Google Maps, bad ones. Last one, 10 minutes ago: "Jetzt haben sie schon wieder eine Brücke kaputt repariert. tErst die Schiersteiner Brücke dann die bei Hochheim und jetzt die Salzbachtalbrücke.
Man könnte meinen das wird mit Absicht so gemacht."

--> "Now they have repaired a bridge again. First the Schiersteiner bridge then the Hochheim and now the Salzbachtal bridge. One might think that is done on purpose."


----------



## rudiwien

cinxxx said:


> ^^I googled that bridge to see where it is and it even has reviews on Google Maps, bad ones. Last one, 10 minutes ago: "Jetzt haben sie schon wieder eine Brücke kaputt repariert. tErst die Schiersteiner Brücke dann die bei Hochheim und jetzt die Salzbachtalbrücke.
> Man könnte meinen das wird mit Absicht so gemacht."
> 
> --> "Now they have repaired a bridge again. First the Schiersteiner bridge then the Hochheim and now the Salzbachtal bridge. One might think that is done on purpose."


*kaputt* repariert, i.e. they "broke-repaired" it (see also https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kaputtreparieren)


----------



## cinxxx

Ah sorry, I was lazy and did google translate and forgot to correct


----------



## M-NL

MattiG said:


> Yes, but... They are quite sensitive to rain, fog and snow.


True, but can we agree that drivers that push the limits during heavy rain, fog and snow, or any extreme weather for that matter, are complete idiots and need to have their license revoked for dangerous driving?


----------



## belerophon

MichiH said:


> About what?


You know, sometimes you stumble about some claimed facts and take some time to dig. Sometimes you read different arguments and are able to compare to other places. I know, that it is impossible to write down all, about all section you covered. But it is also true, that i look up the map, read the project website and questions arise, of whom i think you had them before possibly. Often if you comment about a single project, you write a line like: they did same at "this place", or: remember they discuss it since 20 years. With a broader view, it is easier for you than for most others to have give hints like that. You offer a coverage of sections, lenght, project page, map, possible construction time, but there could also be a comment which won't fullfil any criteria. No formal thing, but thoughts, hints, ideas, questions...


----------



## belerophon

MichiH said:


> A ringroad? You suggest a ring road close to the city of Hamburg instead of a remote northern bypass? Not sure...


No, you got me wrong, but maybe i just write such a shitty english still. What i meant to say was, that i would prefer to start with those sections of western A20, which serve Hamburg, because this is most important. I.e. building westward from the End at Bad Segeberg. For me a closer ring would be more useful maybe. But i would not start stat discussion all over again or nothing would be ever built. The settlements are close to each other from Hamburg up to Kaltenkirchen, so i think, the planned route is cheaper and means less NIMYs, but a connection between Bargteheide, Quickborn and Rinneberg and so on, would serve Hamburg better.


----------



## belerophon

MichiH said:


> Not sure that I got you right: You would build A39 with motorway standard and A14 2+1 only? I agree that A39 is more important and could relieve the congested parallel A7 (which is planned to be widened to 2x3 north of A27 and 2x4 south of A27). I also prefer two alternative routes instead of just widen one route. Even 2x5 for A7 is stupid in my opinion because if there's an accident or a construction site, you always need to drive this route. With A39 you will have an alternative for long-distance traffic.
> 
> A14 is supposed to develop the region too. And I think if you build a new road for minimum 15,000 vehicles, you should directly build it 2x2. A39+A14+B190 are called "H" variant (two parallel Autobahns with a "-" connection). The "X" variant like A61/A63 in RP was the favorit on the German forum back then before the first section was build...
> 
> But I'm not sure if you want me to go into details with these projects?


Well i heard that fundamentalism means to have a little bit of knowledge, and to think thats all what is to know. To have only answers, no questions anymore. But i am full of doubts. Life is complex. There are a lot of things who influence each other... So saying: i think more good should be carried by railway (which i do), does not mean that hindering building motorways. If the capacity of railway is not there (because the Bahn invested too less for decades), this is just a good wish. So if we just discuss the border crossing transport to poland and czechia from good ol saxony, i know that the Elbe valley is already overcrowded, and there ar traffic jams of freight trains between Dresden and Decin. If you have a look of how less (if anything) happens in building railway, electrifying it etc. it is hard to keep hope. But you can't argue about better alternatives, if they are not there. 

For me a huge amount of things are connected. But this makes it more complicated to answer. Donald Trump likes Twitter, because his thoughts are simple enough, that he needs only half of 140 characters... A bit, this is also true for posts. 

I know the discussion about two variants H wie Hosenträger (front side of braces), so a parallel A14 and A39 or the X variant, a connection of both amewhere around Salzwedel. Fair to say, that H-variant is shorter, but the connecting B190 might be improved with additional cost, and enlengthened to east and west, lowering that difference in price also. The X-variant makes the network more robust, because you have the alternative to change the motorway, if blocked, which is not possible in H-variant. The decision for H-variant is a political one in my view. 

It might be justified to build A14 2+2, but in compromise with the different "green" initiatives, 2+1 would have been maybe accepted and built faster. 2+2 could also come later... I agree that building it in a way it does not need to be upgraded soon is a good thought, but if that means waiting some more years there is a break-even point, this becomes stupid. Where it is, i won't decide.

Do motorways improve economy? At least there is no linear connection. If you have roads, this is not enough. The roads around Munich are overcrowded, but the city and its economy grow, even that it is well known (your list shows it) that infrastructure won't keep up with that, if all such projects would be built in time...

There is more than roads. The saxonian region around Chemnitz-Zwickau is closer settled and denser populated, still a lot of people have no fast if any internet connection. That is even worse in big parts of Neufünfland (eastern germany). 

The population is not growing (we need to have a migration like in 2015/16 at least every decade to keep it only stable, which is an unwanted solution for a broad majority i guess  ). If so, travel won't rise forever, because the car ownership per person is also not growing anymore. Pötzsch from Volkswagen was last week cited, that electric cars would not be affordable for some people anymore. He implicates the rate of car ownership would shrink. Energy gets scarcer and more expensive. I like that. I like to travel, i like to use energy. But it is still just ridiculously cheap in comparison to human labor. The comparison is, that all of us have 140 slaves who work for us. This won't go on forever. So the best politically idea is to rise the price slow enough to get people to use it better, at which pace is up to discussion. Nobody likes high prices for gasoline. But the difference between high oil prices and low ones is a doubling/splitting in half at the maximum for germans in the last decade, while americans faced higher spikes in shorter time, ruining families because they were used to gasoline prices not worth mentioning. If you also concern the cost of a military robbing the neede oil by force, the implications to a society by thousands of handycapped ex-soldiers, whith weapons in their hands, well that is the land of the free.

I prefer an adaption of scarce and costly energy by a slow pace instead of such shocks. 

So traffic could only grow, if people need to go to work farther. Nobody likes that. Nobody likes to move away either. For me, motorways in the east mean a waqy to go away easier. A lot of people want to come back to the east, because they are not valued in the west. The can labor, but are not liked and don't feel good. So for me the stat should help companies to build in the east, produce close to those who consume goods. Close to where the workforce lives. It is idiotic to help people drive far for work. People need to, they don't do it out of joy. Enomomy needs to serve the people, not the other way around. Why is it a social democratic policy, to give more woman the possibility to work and send their children to a kindergarden? Why is that a benefit of a serving state? Any scientific research shows, that the woman like that, but what they really want is to STAY with their cildren in younger age, but they need to work to keep up with bills. So in fact the state helps making this woman prey of economy. 

One way out for me is the scarcity of workforce today. I like that. I hope it will be dealt with to distribute the workforce better to all places needed, but i hope it will stay scarce forever. I don't want migration to change that. Since workforce is hard to find, the power of the wroking will rise, thats more than any trade union ever could do. And it leads to something, which shows, that nobody likes to commute far. People come back to saxony. It is not much right now, but thats a good thing for society. The east is politically instable, because those good educated go away. More woman go away than men (which science also found to be a reason for social strife). Cities and villages devastate and are struggling to keep up with their tasks, the east grows old. All this could get better with the scarcity of workforce, which leads to higher wages and people coming back. The state should accept the wishes of the people, to stay here and have more than roads to go away instead of robbing the workforce of eastern countries. We stuff our holes with workforce from eastern countries leading directly to social disruption there, but thats another topic. It does not make any sense to built new houses in the west, while those already there in the east decay. Thats bad for nature, thats bad for the social network. Any good policy should not follow this trend helplessly but trying to slow it down. Still inside of saxony there is a fight to get companies into industrial estates close to the motorway. But they dont get more. Its jsut a politicial supported process in which companies leave the ore mountains and go closer to the motorway. Now we have rotten industrial ruines and decaying villages and on the other hand, a use of money for new industrial estates. This is stupid, nothing more. Thats not politics, its submission under economical thinking. Afterwards the state of saxony takes the money of the richer places close to the motorway and gives it to those which are now left of industry, whilst people still commute more and more or leave for higher priced flats in Leipzig and Dresden, whilst they lived on own property before, far from their parents growing old. Thats just evil. Politicians are just cowards for me. They are not worth their money. They dont adress this complex, they just accompany it.

So there is more than motorway construction to do. The best would be to eliminate the need for any single kilometer of new motorway. Nevertheless i am engineer. If anything is built i go there and look every now and then, i read, i infrom myself. And of course i am proud, my heart burns


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## ChrisZwolle

*A40 Duisburg*

The plans for the replacement of the Neuenkamp Rhine Bridge of A40 at Duisburg have been released: http://www.brd.nrw.de/Aktuelle-Offenlagen/A40-Neuenkamp/01_Uebersicht.html


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## belerophon

MichiH said:


> What? I don't get want you mean...


I was laying in bed for a while with a cold and was happy to study your lists. 



> Back to my questions "what hinders construction" without evaluating it / rate it:
> 
> What has lead to the current situation?
> 
> The so-called Fall of the Berlin Wall! The reunification of Germany. Money was sent "to the east". Western Germany got less budget than needed. Constructions were postponed - like widening of my A3. VDE - Transportation Projects German Unification - was the thing.
> 
> State authorities itself had to save money in 1990s and 2000s. Only Bavaria didn't reduce their staff. Of course, it led to longer planning procedures and construction sites. It wasn't a big issue till late 2000s because budget was also low. We feared that the plan approval orders will get invalid because no construction works could be started within 10 years after dismissing last complaints. It was only possible to extend the validity by another 5 years. We asked whether it might be possible to extend it again. Especially in Baden-Württemberg. They built "Soda" bridges* that the plan approval order remained valid because it cannot expire if "construction works have been started". And building a small bridge was a start...
> 
> *A bridge which is build without function.
> 
> What has been done to improve it?
> 
> Truck toll was introduced and income is allowed to be used for road infrastructure only.
> 
> Do you remember the "Konjunkturpaket" from 2008/09? We were so happy that road infrastructure got more money in the recession period. Finally more money! And road infrastructure got finally more and more money with every annual federal budget in 2010. Big increase in %.
> And state's do finally advertise new jobs (they want more employees).
> 
> Why is it catching up so slowly?
> 
> When the truck toll was introduced, the federal road infrastructure budget remained the same. The income was compensated by less money from taxes.
> The additional money in 2010s cannot be spend because there are still too less employees in road authorities. The market is empty. Private companies pay more. In addition "EU laws" are updated and long-term planning procedures end up in revising documents again and again. I think other EU countries might have the same problem but it's simpler to challenge German plan approval orders. Verbandsklagerecht (right for organizations to challenge). German nature conservation organizations love it...
> Road authorities wanna observe construction sites in detail. Sure, it's their job. They make the final execution planning themelves and do usually tender small lots (so that small local companies can compete). If there's just one complaint against awarding a small contract at the end of the project, the whole project is delayed....
> 
> I could write much more but I'm not sure what you wanna know. Maybe I got you wrong........


The toll for trucks is a good thing for me. That polish drivers do not need to get the german minimum wage is not. People won't like it, but if all our goods are carried far that could only change with higher cost. Good for nature, good for congestions (i.e. less congestions). 

Small projects for ocal companies are also good. But possibly the contract could also go to a bigger one, with the need to give a share to smaller and local ones, but by dealing just with one. The so called Arbeitsgemeinschaft (society of companies to bid for bigger projects) could be a good idea.

I got a "you are blocked" infopage, because my post was to long, so i split it in several. This shows very good what i used as comparison to Donald I., god emperor of American empire and his simple ideas for twitters 140 characters. Funny.


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## MattiG

M-NL said:


> True, but can we agree that drivers that push the limits during heavy rain, fog and snow, or any extreme weather for that matter, are complete idiots and need to have their license revoked for dangerous driving?


Please do not mix different things. An autopilot is a device to work in all normal conditions, including rain, fog and snow. Therefore, the question is much more than "calibrating" the existing devices.


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## Suburbanist

With modern technology, it would be fairly easy to set up varying speed limits in Germany.

When driving in Germany at daytime on free-flowing highways, I tend to keep around 130 (busier) - 150 (emptier). I don't like the aerodynamic impact of approaching trucks from the side at higher speeds. What bothers me is when someone driving much faster than that slows down only when close even if I'm overtaking someone else. Of course, cars can quickly slow down from 180 to 140 due to aerodynamics, no braking actually needed, so the maneuver is less dangerous than it appears. Yet, it makes for uncomfortable encounters.

At night I'd rather keep 130 max. Maybe 140 on empty highways like A2 Magdeburg - Berlin ring, but many have temporary 120 or even 100 speed limits at night near towns and villages.


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## MichiH

belerophon said:


> Also i would tend to smaller projects. Every politician want to open a motorway. That does not make it more useful. If i compare how much you could improve smaller roads for the same money it hits me.


Sorry, but I think the other way round. I tend to bigger projects. A3 2x3 widening Aschaffenburg - Würzburg (~90km) was started in 1980s and it's not yet completed. If we omit the River Main bridge at Aschaffenburg, it's still 1997-2021. I don't remember the early years but there are almost daily traffic jams since minimum 2001.

A3 2x3 widening Würzburg - Fürth (Nuremberg) was started in 2014 (first bridge reconstruction) and should be completed by 2024 (~80km). Better but not good enough.


Building a bypass for every village is also not the best way IMO because there's always a bootleneck in-between with ecological issues which remains forever. And the better the road is the more traffic uses it and gets stuck at the bottleneck. I prefer thinking big and building alternative "corridor routes" (Bündelungstrassen) with a bigger distance to villages.

And "every politician want to open a motorway" is not true anymore. It was mostly true in 1960s/70s in Western Germany and 1990s/2000s in Eastern Germany but surely not today!

Many politicians want bypasses for every little village in their electoral district though. Voter live at the through road and in neighboring villages frequently passing through the villages to be bypassed. Voter, especially NIMBYs, care about regional issues only but usually not about long-distance traffic and not also rarly about local issues concerning them. That means, if they don't live at the through road, they don't want a bypass of the own village but for neighboring villages only.


About your other posts: I appreciate that you think so much about all these things but it's really hard to understand what you mean. I read your posts twice but still don't know what's your message. It looks like a chain of thoughts but not a clear statement.


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> And "every politician want to open a motorway" is not true anymore. It was mostly true in 1960s/70s in Western Germany and 1990s/2000s in Eastern Germany but surely not today!


I'm wondering if Mr. Scheuer has even attended a road opening outside of Bavaria in his position as minister of BMVI. Usually it's some kind of secretary or state minister.


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## MichiH

^^ A8 doubling Merzig: https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pressemitteilungen/2018/068-scheuer-a8-ou-saarlouis-roden.html

And I'm currently not sure about A7 Hamburg Langenfelder Brücke

Groundbreaking:
A14 Tangerhütte - Lüderitz: https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pressemitteilungen/2018/064-scheuer-weiterbau-a14.html
A10 widening north of Berlin: http://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/Pr...cheuer-startschuss-fuer-oepp-brandenburg.html


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B50:* AS Platten – east of AS Lösnich 19.9km (July 2009 to Mid 2019) – project – map


Likely Fall 2019 now. Source.


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## ChrisZwolle

'Decades' of construction on A99 ahead: https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenc...usbau-fuer-jahrzehnte-baustelle-11626529.html

The eight lane expansion of the eastern ring road alone will result in 20 years of traffic misery. They should've done this as a PPP and have it completed in 4 years.


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## Shenkey

Should make a whole ring before, so traffic can divert.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A66 Frankfurt*

The cost estimate for the Riederwald Tunnel of A66 in eastern Frankfurt has been raised from € 320 million to € 477 million.

>> https://www.hessenschau.de/wirtscha...-explodieren,riederwaldtunnel-kosten-100.html

The Riederwald Tunnel is a 1.1 km tunnel that will fix the missing link from A66 to A661 on the east side of Frankfurt. 

The missing link of A661 was completed in 1995, but only built with one carriageway, with a semi-permanent 4+0 system on one half of the future motorway. This is where the A66-A661 interchange is planned.

Construction began on the interchange in 2009, with a planned completion in 2017. 10 years later, only a part of the below-grade interchange has been built. No construction has yet started on the actual Riederwald Tunnel, which is planned for 2020-2028.


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## bogdymol

ChrisZwolle said:


> 'Decades' of construction on A99 ahead: https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenc...usbau-fuer-jahrzehnte-baustelle-11626529.html
> 
> The eight lane expansion of the eastern ring road alone will result in 20 years of traffic misery. They should've done this as a PPP and have it completed in 4 years.
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/tEU6ux3.jpg


I drive about once every month from Austria (Wels area) to München Airport. One of the reason why I always drive through Passau, and not through Salzburg, even though it is almost 30 km longer, are the never-ending construction areas on A99 (München ring road) and A8 München - Salzburg.

If Germany is bad at something, that's the speed of rebuilding their road infrastructure. And building new airports.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A66 Riederwaldtunnel*

To add to the Riederwald Tunnel report, it has also been reported that the tunnel will be completed in 2030, which is another 2 years later than last reported.

Check out this report from the 'spatenstich' in 2009: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-m...ich-riederwaldtunnel-wird-gebaut-1858224.html

Eines der am längsten geplanten Verkehrsprojekte im Rhein-Main-Gebiet ist in Angriff genommen worden: der Riederwaldtunnel im Osten von Frankfurt. Für den symbolischen Spatenstich kamen Bundesverkehrsminister Wolfgang Tiefensee (SPD) und Hessens Verkehrsminister Dieter Posch (FDP) an die Baustelle. Das 1100 Meter lange Bauwerk soll die Lücke zwischen der Autobahn 66 aus Osthessen und der Frankfurter Ostumgehung (A 661) schließen. Der Bau soll 2017/18 fertig sein​
So that is a 12-13 year delay... :nuts: And a total construction time of 21 years.


----------



## da_scotty

Question!

At the end of march I will be driving from the Nijmegen area to Innsbruck/Fulpmes. 
With the amount of long and slow roadworks, we will travel very early morning on a friday, so rush hour has to be taken into account.

Which route would you advise?

Linksrheinsich route of A61/A5/A8/A7 (Nijmegen -> Venlo -> M'gladbach -> Koblenz -> Manheim -> Kalsruhe -> Stuttgart -> Ulm -> Fernpass -> Innsbruck
852km

Rechtsrheinisch route of A57/A40/A3/A5/A8/A7
Nijmegen -> Duisburg -> Frankfurt -> Kalsruhe -> Stuttgart -> Ulm -> Fernpass -> Innsbruck
870km

Rechtsrheinisch route of A57/A40/A3/A7
Nijmegen -> Duisburg -> Frankfurt -> Wurzburg -> Ulm -> Fernpass -> Innsbruck
900km

or another route?

Thanks in Advance!


----------



## General Maximus

I mostly use A61. Although A3 has improved again with lesser roadworks. Just let Google Maps decide before you take off, it'll give you a pretty good idea which route to take.

Don't be one of those tourists who feel it's necessary to travel on a Saturday in the daytime though. You're not getting anywhere, no matter which route you take.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Late March has no school vacation, so that should reduce some of the busy traffic to the Alps. Also, most seasonal construction doesn't start until April, so it shouldn't be too bad with construction. For example Bregenz - Aachen was reported to have around 12 construction zones now. I would try to leave as early as possible since the Friday afternoon rush in Germany tends to start even earlier than in the Netherlands.


----------



## General Maximus

In the winter it's jammed every Saturday from either Munich or Fernpass into the Inntal and back. Achensee provides a good alternative.


----------



## da_scotty

To clarify: we travel friday morning (22nd March) , leaving at 5am/5.30am probably, so we would cross the Fernpass at around 12am'ish. So the afternoon rush hour isn't a problem, it's the morning rush.

My major concern is the A8, last time it was construction works for miles and miles on end.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Map of construction sites: https://www.bast.de/BASt_2017/DE/Fa...mation/baustelleninformation_hidden_node.html

I think the situation is similar for A3/A7 and A5/A8 from Frankfurt/Mainz to Ulm. Both routes have too many construction sites. Starting @5AM you should reach Frankfurt during rush hour. You would reach Stuttgart after rush hour though.

I recommend this:



da_scotty said:


> Linksrheinsich route of A61/A5/A8/A7 (Nijmegen -> Venlo -> M'gladbach -> Koblenz -> Manheim -> Kalsruhe -> Stuttgart -> Ulm -> Fernpass -> Innsbruck
> 852km


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Overhead lines are being installed along A1 between Lübeck and Hamburg. It is a trial for electric trucks. A5 has overhead lines south of Frankfurt as well. 










>> https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schl...er-E-Highway-an-A1-errichtet,ehighway108.html


----------



## Luki_SL

^^It looks very strange on the motorways


----------



## Wilhem275

Now they just need a couple of rails and it's done


----------



## MattiG

Wilhem275 said:


> What's wrong with the existing connector? Doesn't seem to meet conflicts with other movements.


The current loop has one lane only, and the acceleration lane is extremely short. There is no space to extend the lane.


----------



## RipleyLV

ChrisZwolle said:


> Overhead lines are being installed along A1 between Lübeck and Hamburg. It is a trial for electric trucks. A5 has overhead lines south of Frankfurt as well.


They are seriously going for this?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yep, it's the 2nd out of 3 short test charging lines.


----------



## RipleyLV

They were testing the same thing in Sweden, 2016. But I haven't heard any results, if it's worth building elsewhere..


----------



## MichiH

^^ https://sandvikenpurepower.se/in-english/electric-highway.html



> It has proven to work fine, and the electrical highway will now become a bit longer: 44 kilometres from the Port of Gävle to Storvik, north of Sandviken.
> The project started in June 2016 and has exceeded all expectations. Now, the project is extended to March 2021 under the project name “Reality lab, sustainable transport systems”.



The same is planned for Italian A35: https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/09/20180920-italy.html



> ultimate goal is to create the first ‘zero impact’ eHighway in Europe, with solar panels along the 62.1km route generating the required electrical power.


----------



## RipleyLV

^^ Thanks! 

I'll just leave it there. Too many questions regarding this solution and OT anyway.


----------



## MichiH

^^ You could start a new eHighway thread.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Tribsees*

The repairs of the collapsed A20 at Tribsees will last substantially longer than was reported until now. It won't be completed in 2021, but in late 2023.

>> https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/bund...e-2023-fertig.1939.de.html?drn:news_id=976485


----------



## Don Alessandro

^^ What a surprise. Five years for an emergency repair.

How old is that Highway? Ten years? 

On GM you can see the emergency solution and the construction works on that stretch.


----------



## MichiH

^^ It was opened in 2005.


----------



## MattiG

Don Alessandro said:


> ^^ What a surprise. Five years for an emergency repair.
> 
> How old is that Highway? Ten years?
> 
> On GM you can see the emergency solution and the construction works on that stretch.


I do not believe this is an emergency repair but a permanent one. The emergency solution was deployed pretty quickly.

If I recall, the road section will be replaced by a bridge?


----------



## MichiH

^^ correct


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A44 Garzweiler*

The great Autobahn disappearing act.










Garzweiler mine south of Mönchengladbach.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Screw the Autobahn... the town!!!!


----------



## mgk920

The mining company is required to restore the autobahn when their work there is complete, correct? Also, IIRC, a couple of other autobahns in the vicinity are involved.

Mike


----------



## MattiG

mgk920 said:


> The mining company is required to restore the autobahn when their work there is complete, correct? Also, IIRC, a couple of other autobahns in the vicinity are involved.
> 
> Mike


Yes. Yes. 

The A61 between Wanlo and Jackerath was closed to be torn down soon after the A44n was opened. The new 18 km stretch of the A4 south of Hambach open pit was opened in 2016, after 18 years of construction. 

I believe the fight in the Hambach Forest still goes on. Everybody does not see the dirty brown coal as a decent source of energy, and the expanding open pits improving the standard of living nearby.


----------



## Wilhem275

How will they fill those giant pits?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A20 Elbe Tunnel*

The Elbe crossing of A20 is delayed again, according to NDR it is now planned to be open by 2030.

I was looking into it, it appears the problems are on the Schleswig-Holstein side now. Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) published a plan approval on 30 March 2015, which was ruled valid by the court on 10 November 2016.

Schleswig-Holstein published a plan approval in 2014, but it was ruled invalid by court in 2016, because they forgot to publish documentation for the Water Framework Directive (_Wasserrahmenrichtlinie_). They published this in 2017 but found shortcomings so they had to significantly redo that, which has delayed the procedures by at least 3 years, as they now don't expect a plan approval extension until the second half of 2020.

The project:


----------



## detreinbek

The whole A 20 project in Schleswig-Holstein is under delay


----------



## Madrawski97

*A10 Raststätte Michendorf - Dreieck Potsdam*

Some pictures from my trip back to the Netherlands yesterday. My apologies for the quality


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A49*

The construction of A49 between Neuental and Schwalmstadt has been delayed again according to a Hessen Mobil press release.

Construction began in October 2010, with an official 'first sod' ceremony in March 2011. They have now stated a completion in mid-2022, almost 12 years to construct a 12 km segment of Autobahn.

>> https://mobil.hessen.de/pressemitte...ntal-bis-schwalmstadt-streckenbau-im-nord-und


----------



## MichiH

^^ Reason:


> Maßgebend dafür ist die Rüge eines Bieters im Zuge der EU-weiten Ausschreibung des Streckenbaus. Hessen Mobil hat deshalb die Ausschreibungsunterlagen anpasst, um ein unter Umständen sehr langwieriges Rechtsschutzverfahren und in der Folge eine erhebliche Verzögerung des gesamten Streckenbaus in den beiden Abschnitten auszuschließen. Aufgrund dieser Anpassung ergeben sich nun Änderungen im Bauablauf und eine Verschiebung des Endtermins um ca. ein halbes Jahr.


An objection of a bidder for the track layout construction. Hessen Mobil has modified the tender documents to avoid a long legal procedure with a long delay. They have changed the construction sequence(?) ending up in a delay of half an year.

Note: A delay of "just" half an year is a minor delay here


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B463 Pforzheim*

A 1.1 km section of the new western bypass of Pforzheim will open to traffic on 12 April, between B10 and L562.

Press release: https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rpk/Seiten/pressemitteilung.aspx?rid=1467

The 3 kilometer bypass of Pforzheim is being built in 3 sections over a period of nearly 15 years. 

* 2009-2012: the bridge of B463 over B10
* 2015-2019: the 1.1 km section opening this week
* 2019-late 2023: the next stage to B294, including a tunnel.

Project website: https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rpk/Abt4/Ref473/Seiten/B-463-Westtangente-Pforzheim.aspx


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The 3 kilometer bypass of Pforzheim is being built in 3 sections over a period of nearly 15 years.


The "3 sections" are section 1. Or "section 1.01", "section 1.02" (violet) and "section 1.03" (red). "section 2" (yellow) is a further 3km extension to the south with another tunnel. Total costs for "both" sections are 214 million € (2014 calculation) and the expected AADT is 16,000 vehicles/day.









http://bvwp-projekte.de/strasse/B463-G10-BW/B463-G10-BW.html


----------



## MichiH

Some stats from the Federal Ministry of Transport about construction sites on Autobahns: http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/087/1908789.pdf

There were 866 construction sites with a duration of minimum 4 days on German Autobahn in 2018. The average length was 3.18km and the average duration was 253 days. 337 construction sites were in NRW, 100 in Bavaria, 79 in Lower Saxony, 76 in Brandenburg, 64 in Hesse, 46 in Baden-Württemberg,...

42 out of 866 construction sites were day-long (24h). 19 in Bavaria, 10 in Lower Saxony, 8 in NRW, 3 in Baden-Württemberg and 2 in Hesse.

About 1/3 of all congestions (STAU) are caused by construction sites, about 1/3 by lack of capacity and 1/3 by accidents.

The Autobahn network length was 13.009km as of 1st January 2018. 30% of all Autobahn km are permanently or temporarily speed limited. In addition, Autobahn construction sites do have a speed limit too.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think the actual congestion caused by construction may be higher: many accidents are in or just before construction zones. For example on the notorious A2 in Lower Saxony the accident rate goes up as soon as construction is underway each season.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I think it depends on the definition of "congestion" (by number, by lengths, by duration, by time loss,...?) and definition of "construction site" (only 4-days+ sites or also shorter ones? in or in front of the site? Is in front of the construction site counted as "caused by accident"?) etc.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The 'Tagesbaustelle' may also cause some substantial congestion. NRW alone reported 22,000 short-term construction in 2018 (emergency repairs after crashes, painting, filling potholes, mowing, tree-cutting, etc). These often require a lane closure and frequently cause significant delays.


----------



## Don Alessandro

The project manager of the construction site at the A94 is optimistic about the opening date in october, he says it' s possible that'll be opened sooner.










From the 56 bridges on the 33 kilometer stretch almost all of them are finished, even the Ornautalbrucke where a part of it had to be torn down and rebuild.

There are still some remaining works with the pavement and plants.

Source: https://www.rosenheim24.de/bayern/schwindegg-dorfen-aktueller-stand-beim-a94-ausbau-april-halbes-jahr-geplanter-eroeffnung-12182451.html



















There are more pictures on rosenheim24.de


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Is this the whole Pastetten-Heldenstein stretch?


----------



## MichiH

^^ I don't know about the pics but the whole 33km long Autobahn from Pastetten to Heldenstein should be opened by October at the latest.


----------



## Don Alessandro

^^ If you compare the distance on GM it looks like it's the whole stretch, so I think yeah.


----------



## threo2k

Where is this located on map?


----------



## Don Alessandro

^^

https://goo.gl/maps/H3VdmN6hUbn

I'm really curious if this will be a good alternative route for Munich - Linz once this stretch is finished, distance is almost the same. And you don't have go via crowded A8.


----------



## MichiH

Don Alessandro said:


> ^^ If you compare the distance on GM it looks like it's the whole stretch, so I think yeah.


Not just about the distance, IT IS!


----------



## MichiH

Don Alessandro said:


> I'm really curious if this will be a good alternative route for Munich - Linz once this stretch is finished, distance is almost the same. And you don't have go via crowded A8.


It will! From Munich downtown, Bavarian A8 and Austria A1 is the fastest route. From Munich North (e.g. heading to Munich by A8 from Augsburg), it's already better to use Bavarian A92, A3 and Austrian A8. A94 will likely be the best route from November 2019 but will definitely be the best route from ~2023 when the next 2 sections will be opened.

The remaining gap near Simbach will be closed later.


----------



## Wilhem275

How will A94 connect to the Austrian network?

Right now I'd expect most drivers to use the Braunau - Altheim - Ried i.I. itinerary


----------



## threo2k

Hi! Just a small question, what will happen to the old A4 around Eisenach not that the new strech is finished?


----------



## MichiH

The western segment is still in service as B19 expressway. The eastern segment was demolished.


----------



## Isek

MichiH said:


> ^^ AADT is about 27,000 vehicles/day near Plattling (lowest figures) and about 100,000 vehicles/day b/n A9 and Munich Airport (about half of traffic leaves A92 at the Airport exit). The section b/n A99 and A9 is planned to be upgraded to 2x3 and b/n A9 and Airport from 2x3 to 2x4.


Still, during weekdays it seems to be quite full at least until Landshut or sometimes even Dingolfing. It is a typical route where travel speed is strongly limited because of truchs overtaking each other resulting in several minutes each where a queue of cars is forced to drive at 90 km/h. 




MichiH said:


> B20 is also planned to be upgraded to 2x2 expressway from A92 to B85 towards Czechia. AADT is from 9,000 (23% truck share) to 25,000 vehicles/day (11% truck share).


That's an interesting project. It should give a lot of new great options between Czech Republic, Bavaria and Austria! Maybe some traffic will be rerouted from A93 Regensburg. Or even A9 if destination is Salzburg / Tauern Autobahn.


----------



## General Maximus

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove to Bad Oeynhausen yesterday to record the new bypass. Unfortunately almost half of it is still limited to 60 or 80 km/h due to construction & tunnel. I also think the loop ramp at Kreuz Bad Oeynhausen is substandard for the amount of truck traffic it will handle. There was almost no truck traffic in the video due to the Easter holidays. The amount of graffiti is ridiculous by the way.


I'd like to have a dashcam fitted in my van. That way, being on the road all over Europe all the time, I can contribute a lot more to this section of SSC. However, I've been told they are deemed illegal in Austria and Germany due to privacy laws?


----------



## MichiH

^^ https://www.adac.de/der-adac/rechtsberatung/verkehrsvorschriften/inland/dashcam/ (in German)



> Aber auch bei der privaten Aufzeichnung ist eine umfassende Interessenabwägung vorzunehmen. Wer ausschließlich für private Zwecke eine Fahrt in landschaftlich schöner Umgebung filmt, verstößt auch dann nicht gegen den Datenschutz, wenn dabei andere Personen oder Kennzeichen abgelichtet werden. Hierbei sollte jedoch stets beachtet werden, dass im Rahmen einer Kontrolle oftmals nicht feststeht, welchen Zwecken die Aufnahmen im Einzelfall dienen bzw. zu dienen bestimmt sind.


There's no clear statement whether it's legal or not.


----------



## General Maximus

So, it's basically a grey area without clear legislation.


----------



## Attus

Isek said:


> It makes sense if you look at A92 traffic load during weekdays. A94 is reducing this load. Today it is heavily used by e.g. Hungarians driving from Munich north or Augsburg - Stuttgart area to Hungary.


How many of them do it daily? Several hundreds? Or possibly even a 4 digit number?


----------



## Attus

General Maximus said:


> So, it's basically a grey area without clear legislation.


Recording is a grey area. Publishing is fobbidden no doubt.


----------



## TM_Germany

^^ pretty sure publishing is alright as long as number plates and faces can't be recognized.


----------



## Isek

Attus said:


> Isek said:
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense if you look at A92 traffic load during weekdays. A94 is reducing this load. Today it is heavily used by e.g. Hungarians driving from Munich north or Augsburg - Stuttgart area to Hungary.
> 
> 
> 
> How many of them do it daily? Several hundreds? Or possibly even a 4 digit number?
Click to expand...


This road i use quite regularly. Hungarians are together with Czech and Austrians very often seen. Then comes Polish and Romanian


----------



## MichiH

^^ It's possible that they don't drive to Hungary though. It's possible that car drivers (temporarily) live in Bavaria and might be on their way from or to work. And trucks with "foreign" number plates are often just on inner German or inner "western Europe" tours.

A94 will be a great alternative route for long-distance traffic though


----------



## Rohne

*A5 and A7 in eastern Hesse*



MichiH said:


> Upgrade of A7 b/n A4 and A5 is only further demand in the BVWP 2030 (planning might start in 2030 at the earliest).
> 
> I've never stuck in a jam on A7. The big problem is A5 and that will be relieved by A49 (shorter and flat compared to A5/A7).


Then you are lucky. That short section between A4 and A5 is highly congested with regular traffic jams, especially on typical commuting days (thursdays, fridays, sundays and holidays). These traffic jams of course also continue for several kms of A5 and A4. In fact nearly the whole A5/A7 between Frankfurt and Kirchheimer Dreieck turns into one long parking space quite regularly.
Currently A7 has 4 lanes uphill (direction Frankfurt) and 3 lanes for direction Kassel. An additional lane for both directions, but especially northbound would really help. But currently it's just further demand, as you already mentioned. At least redesign of Kirchheimer Dreieck (currently u/c) will relieve that situation a bit.

A49 will improve the situation east of the interchange A5/A49 but worsen it west of the interchange, as it will bring more traffic from the areas around Fritzlar, Marburg and Stadtallendorf (currently using especially B3) to A5 which is a major bottleneck already today. Extension to six lanes between A49 and Reiskirchener Dreieck (A480) is urgent demand, but still far from even being planned.
And even east of the interchange with A49 AADT on A5 is expected to remain at around 50k, so not much less than today. Hesse also applied for this section to be extended to six lanes for current BVWP, but calculated benefit cost ratio was slightly less than 1, so it didn't make it into any demand. It was one of the highest ratios of all projects that didn't make it, so in my eyes that would have been a natural candidate for being reviewed (so called "Kein Bedarf mit Prüfauftrag"), especially when A49 is finished and the real effect can be evaluated, but even that is not intended atm.

For A7 near Kassel it remains to be seen how traffic numbers develop once A44 is finished. Currently AADT is at 80-90k, predictions (even including a completed A44) don't see it climb to above 100k, so 4+4 should be sufficient for quite a while.


----------



## Wilhem275

Attus said:


> Recording is a grey area. Publishing is fobbidden no doubt.


What if you record in Germany and then publish from a country not requiring to hide plates? :cheers:


----------



## mgk920

I just went over a bunch of 'driver eye' video clips of German trams (fascinating, BTW  ) and I just can't help but think that eventually, any such 'privacy' laws will simply be rendered unenforceable and moot due to the sheer volume of material that is available from multitudes of sources on line.

Maybe we'll even see Google Streetview being allowed back into Germany.

(Yea, I know.... hno: )

Mike


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove to Bad Oeynhausen yesterday to record the new bypass. Unfortunately almost half of it is still limited to 60 or 80 km/h due to construction & tunnel. I also think the loop ramp at Kreuz Bad Oeynhausen is substandard for the amount of truck traffic it will handle. There was almost no truck traffic in the video due to the Easter holidays. The amount of graffiti is ridiculous by the way.


Are there any plans to make the A2/A30 interchange full speed/free-flowing for traffic between A2 to the east and A30 to the west?

Mike


----------



## TM_Germany

^^ unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be planned.


----------



## MichiH

*Risk of dust storms*

Mecklenburg-West Pomerania in the northeast of Germany has reduced the speed on some Autobahn sections (A19, A20, A24) due to risk of dust storms. The risk is high because of the dry and windy conditions. For instance, A20 between Straßburg and Pasewalk was affected from 11:30 AM today. The speed limit was 80km/h but the warning could be withdraw this afternoon. Speed limit signs remain there though. The German Meteorological Office (Deutscher Wetterdienst) issues warnings and the traffic management authority informs the road maintenance depots. Their worker go out and check the situation on-site. If they recognize a dangerous situation, they warn drivers by signs, inform police and traffic reporting. See press release of the Ministry of Transport Mecklenburg-West Pomerania.

There was a multiple-vehicle collision (_Massenkarambolage_) in Mecklenburg-West Pomerania with 80 vehicles and 8 fatalities 8 years ago caused by a heavy dust storm.


----------



## Ingenioren

I saw these Staub signs all over Germany last week, first i thought they misspelled Stau :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This is a problem across the region these days, I've also seen reports of dust storms in Poland, Denmark, Netherlands and Sweden. 

It coincides with a significant Saharan dust event, but I don't think it's related, this is just a combination of bare fields and strong winds. It is a recurring event of varying severity each spring.


----------



## bogdymol

On Monday I have seen a very small tornado lifting a lot of dust from a field nearby M1 motorway at Gyor in Hungary. It was small and not dangerous, but you never know what can happen if it grows quickly.

Regarding the Sahara dust, there are numerous reports in Romania that the cars got a lot of dust on them while they were parked.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> @henmar: and, not or!


Are you sure? I'm not a native German speaker but §3 (3) 2 c means for me that even 1+1 roads have no speed limit if the carriageways are separated. And exactly that's why 100 km/h is signposted in B262 near Mayen (separated 1+1 road), without speed limit signs there wouldn't be any limit which would be crazy. 

@Bogdy: After all, either Michi has right or Henmar and me ;-), 2+2 Bundesstraßen with separated carriageways have no speed limit for sure, unless it is signposted. However, in most cases 100 or 120 is signposted.


----------



## Suburbanist

Police seize 120 sports cars during Eurorally 'race' through Germany
Source 



> German police have seized 120 sports cars that were taking part in a suspected road race across Europe.
> 
> Cars including Porsches, Lamborghinis and Audis were stopped on Thursday on the A20 east of Wismar, in north-east Germany, on a stretch of the autobahn without speed restrictions.
> 
> Concerned drivers had notified authorities after some of the cars were witnessed travelling at estimated speeds of up to 155mph.
> 
> Most of the cars carried Norwegian licence plates and bore windshield stickers with the name of the event, Eurorally.


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> I think that there is also no 1-laned carriageway w/o speed limit by signs though.


I, too, think so. But there are signs exactly because without signs the road would not have speed limit so signs are needed in order to have a limit.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> However, in most cases 100 or 120 is signposted.


I have no figures but I think that maybe 30% are unlimited but not more than 50%. All B29 sections are limited, that's why henmar is surprised by the fact that the new section is not limited.


----------



## bogdymol

Thank you all for your clarifications. I was not aware about that, as I have not studied in such detail the German traffic regulations.










I was aware of this sign, which I read it as: the recommended speed limit applies only for motorways, so all other roads fall into 100 km/h category. I was wrong it seems...


----------



## Corvinus

bogdymol said:


> I was aware of this sign, which I read it as: the recommended speed limit applies only for motorways, so all other roads fall into 100 km/h category. I was wrong it seems...


It's simply impossible to compress all the regulation details on the border sign. But no worries, many Germans themselves are also unaware of this fine print (namely, the absence of a general speed limit not only for Autobahns, but for all extraurban roads with a physical carriageway separator *or* at least two marked lanes per direction).
I've come across numerous times the belief that non-Autobahn dual carriageway roads are limited to 130 km/h. This is as wrong as a supposed 100 km/h limit.

@Attus:
An 1x1 road with a physical median does indeed have no general speed limit. I am not aware of any such road. Also, I have no knowledge of any 2x2 road without physical median *and* without signposted speed limits.

Whatever the type of road, an absence of speed limit is not "crazy" per se. The law clearly requires all drivers to adapt speed to the given conditions. For that B29 above, if a curve is not designed for 160km/h, the driver is responsible to reduce speed accordingly. 
I like this system of individual responsibility resulting from the absence of a general speed limit on fast roads, but agree that a sudden introduction in other countries would be overly risky. I wish lawmakers outside Germany at least worked on a step-by-step process to increase legal speed on expressways.

And now a question to the public: The general limit for extraurban roads not meeting above criteria is 100km/h. Do any sections of such roads exist with a signposted limit *higher* than the general one?


----------



## MichiH

Corvinus said:


> An 1x1 road with a physical median does indeed have no general speed limit. I am not aware of any such road. Also, I have no knowledge of any 2x2 road without physical median *and* without signposted speed limits.


yep, I already wrote the same 




Corvinus said:


> And now a question to the public: The general limit for extraurban roads not meeting above criteria is 100km/h. Do any sections of such roads exist with a signposted limit *higher* than the general one?


I'm not much interested in this kind of facts - if memory serves, there is none - but B286 b/n A3 and A70 in Lower Franconia was limited to 120km/h. It was lowered to 100km/h (and partially upgraded to 2+1) about 5..10 years ago.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Two other sections of A20 in Northern Germany have subsided (settled may be a better word), near Sanitz and Neubrandenburg. 

It doesn't sound very serious yet, settling of the embankment is not uncommon, especially on soft soils. According to the road authority expert there is no danger for a collapse as happened near Tribsees. But there will be a speed limit on those sections (130 is shown in the video).

NDR reports: https://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendun...n-auf-der-A20-abgesackt,nordmagazin62344.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A9 Nürnberg*

The Autobahndirektion Nordbayern reports that preliminary works for the reconstruction of the 'Kreuz Nürnberg-Ost' (A6/A9) have started. 

The interchange will be reconstructed with additional lanes from north to west and vice versa, catering to this heavy traffic flow. The current interchange is a standard cloverleaf. The cost is € 118 million.

The completion date has been moved back from 2023 to 'late 2024'.


----------



## 1080

Corvinus said:


> And now a question to the public: The general limit for extraurban roads not meeting above criteria is 100km/h. Do any sections of such roads exist with a signposted limit *higher* than the general one?


There is B31n between Stockach and Überlingen, which has an 2+1 setup without median.


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## Corvinus

^^ Exactly what I was looking for. That road would be 100 km/h without a signposted different limit. A higher-than-general signposted limit is uncommon for sure.


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## Luki_SL

^^120km/h Speed limit on this road od little bit dangerous I think.


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## verreme

henmar said:


> No, this was filmed from east to west, so the chicane should be gone by 2023.
> 
> Surprisingly this section is without a speed limit, although the rest of the four-lane B29 is limited to 120 and some of the curves on the new section are definitely not suitable for 160 km/h.


AFAIK B29 used to have no speed limit until a few years ago (2016?). Same for other expressways in Baden-Württemberg that were originally planned as Autobahnen, such as B30 or B27.


----------



## MichiH

verreme said:


> AFAIK B29 used to have no speed limit until a few years ago (2016?).


B29 was unlimited from Schorndorf to Schwäbisch Gmünd. 120 was introduced in November 2011.


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## Matz32Z

I think it's 120 km / h there is a B20 (2+1 standard) in the Straubing area but i am not sure.









Luki_SL said:


> 120km/h Speed limit on this road od little bit dangerous I think.



No rly,the design speed for this type of road in Germany is 110km/h .I read the report that regardless of whether there is a limit of 100 or 120 on such a path, the velocity v85 is just slightly above 120km/h. I think is no dangerus by expressway stadard road.


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## Surel

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-tests-first-ehighway-autobahn/a-48632817



> Germany tests first eHighway autobahn
> Germany's first real-time test of electrified trucks fed via overhead cables amid heavy motorway traffic has begun near Frankfurt. The Environment Ministry hopes the project could contribute to climate-neutral haulage.
> 
> A project to electrify peak-use stretches of Germany's motorway network took its next step Tuesday, with a first hybrid electric-diesel truck merging into regular four-lane traffic flows on the Autobahn (motorway) 5 between Darmstadt and Frankfurt.
> 
> The five-kilometer (3-mile) eHighway stretch will be tested in both directions until 2022 using electricity from renewable sources, according to Hesse state's transport department, Hessen Mobil, after years of off-highway trials involving the engineering giant Siemens.








IMHO the only realistic approach towards using electric energy in freight transportation on the roads. It's fugly, but it works. And the technology exists for more than a century.

Apply this to the motorway or main backbone highway network and you have solved many problems with one shot.

- battery capacity is solved, because you can get almost anywhere within 50 kms radius from the nearest motorway or highway. You need just batteries to make those 100 kms or so.

- you solve the change of modality problem which you have if you use railway.

- you solve problems with delivering high peak power to the charging stations, instead you just manage a vast network of catenaries, similar to what we already know from managing railways. It's much easier to manage the grid in this way, you get averaged constant drain, managed peak currents etc.

- easy adaptation to already existing truck technology. Just make hybrids of those trucks.

- easy to use, no time waste while recharging, combine this with car to car direct communication and possibility for virtual truck trains etc...

- did I forget anything?


----------



## mgk920

- Regenerative braking. Instead of being wasted as heat through the radiator with compression braking, the energy that is released in maintaining speed control on long downgrades is either used to charge the on-board batteries or can be fed back into the 'wires' to be used by other trucks/lorries to help get up the hill.

This is an advantage of straight electric power that has been well known among railroaders since the late 19th century.

- I would also expect vehicles with this system to have *excellent* hill-climbing ability.

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A while ago an expert from the fire department near A1 north of Hamburg, where a similar overhead wiring is being installed, tore the concept apart.

>> https://www.ln-online.de/Lokales/Stormarn/A1-Ist-der-E-Highway-eine-verkehrstechnische-Katastrophe

His arguments:

* helicopters can't land on the highway anymore
* high tension, how fast is it shut down in case of incidents?
* it acts like a tunnel, but without safety equipment usually associated with them
* extinguishing electric vehicles is problematic, especially under live wires
* heavy recovery becomes problematic as they can't use cranes under the wires
* light towers can't be installed under the wires at night during accident recovery
* non-stop guardrails to protect the poles will act like a 'ping pong' where crashes are ricocheted back into traffic 

I suppose that last one is an issue with any motorway surrounded by crash barriers. It does seem though that this increases accident recovery times: less space to work and crashes always end up blocking the roadway instead of ending in the grass or ditch. You frequently read about 6-10 hour closures on the Autobahn, which is very uncommon in the Netherlands (where there aren't as many continuous crash barriers). On the other hand most Dutch motorways aren't built on narrow steep embankments that would require the use of crash barriers all the time. And most German motorways are lined with trees close to the roadway, requiring crash barriers.


----------



## Surel

^^
I don't know, many cities with trolleybuses and tramway lines combined in roads are facing these problems and its no disaster.

Shutting down the circuit should not be such a big problem. Just like safety case at your home.

I don't understand the tunnel argument. This is nothing like a tunnel. I do see the problems it would pose for using helicopters. That's the only drawback in the list that doesn't seem to have an easy solution, but it would not make me discard this technology. Seems a small price to pay.


----------



## Surel

mgk920 said:


> - Regenerative braking. Instead of being wasted as heat through the radiator with compression braking, the energy that is released in maintaining speed control on long downgrades is either used to charge the on-board batteries or can be fed back into the 'wires' to be used by other trucks/lorries to help get up the hill.
> 
> This is an advantage of straight electric power that has been well known among railroaders since the late 19th century.
> 
> - I would also expect vehicles with this system to have *excellent* hill-climbing ability.
> 
> Mike


Yes. Also the fact that the battery capacity doesn't need to be that high, you don't need to carry that weight adding more utility to the concept. Although you need to add weight for the current collectors.

What I like the most is that this technology allows for very fluent transition from fossil fuel based freight transportation to fully electric and it is very friendly to the power grid and power sources. The hybrid trucks can still operate on diesel in those parts of the network that doesn't have the grid. However, if you need to install big batteries, you can't keep the engines and thus you commit fully to the new technology. No transition period.


----------



## MattiG

Surel said:


> What I like the most is that this technology allows for very fluent transition from fossil fuel based freight transportation to fully electric and it is very friendly to the power grid and power sources.


That might be true if the electricity production created no emissions. This, however, if far from being true. The CO2 emissions do not disappear by moving the power production from the car to the power plant, if the power plant uses fossil fuels.

The power production characteristics in the EU varies a lot by country:









(Source: European Environment Agency)

Let us take a compact-size car as case example: CO2 emissions 120 g/km on gas or diesel version, and 20 kWh/100 km on an electricity version.

Such a vehicle makes 12.0 kg/100 km with fossils. Now let us calculate the electricity version in Germany, and assume 85% efficiency of battery charging. Every kWh in produced in Germany makes 440 grams of CO2 in average. The CO2 emissions are 440*20/0.85 = 10.4 kg/100 km. *Not a big saving*. It is quite understandable why the market share of electric vehicles is low in the countries of dirty power. (The calculation omits the transmission losses which vary from 2% in Finland to 10% in Greece and Romania.) In the countries where the nuclear and hydroelectric power sources are the dominant ones, the business case is very different.

I believe the same logic scales to be valid for trucks.

Changing the battery to a smaller one saves perhaps 10% of the weight of the vehicle. A total removal is not possible, because the wires never will have a 100% coverage. In addition, the overhead of charging mostly disappear. These, however, are not that big savings that the calculation above would turn completely invalid.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An argument made in the Netherlands against EV subsidies is that the subsidies per saved tonne of CO2 is a magnitude of order greater than the 'market price' of CO2 under the emissions trading scheme. 

The Dutch government stated that the market price of CO2 is € 23 per tonne of CO2, but EV subsidies amount to € 1700 per tonne of avoided CO2 emission (74 times more expensive), making it a very inefficient way to reduce CO2 emissions.


----------



## Surel

MattiG said:


> That might be true if the electricity production created no emissions. This, however, if far from being true. The CO2 emissions do not disappear by moving the power production from the car to the power plant, if the power plant uses fossil fuels.


Well of course. That's why we need to build many nuclear power plants. The alternative is going back to middle ages or ignoring environmental alarms.

I am not making a case for going electric. I am simply making a case for if you want to go electric, this is sensible to do.

There are really not many options if we want to keep our livings standards, the energy has to come from somewhere in any way.


----------



## Heico-M

Surel said:


> Well of course. That's why we need to build many nuclear power plants. The alternative is going back to middle ages or ignoring environmental alarms.
> 
> I am not making a case for going electric. I am simply making a case for if you want to go electric, this is sensible to do.
> 
> There are really not many options if we want to keep our livings standards, the energy has to come from somewhere in any way.


Objection: 
We do not need to build nuclear plants. The sun provides enough energy for the whole world's demand. We just have to collect it.


----------



## MattiG

Heico-M said:


> Objection:
> We do not need to build nuclear plants. The sun provides enough energy for the whole world's demand. We just have to collect it.


Just shoot a rope and a hook to the Sun and pull it closer.


----------



## Heico-M

MattiG said:


> Just shoot a rope and a hook to the Sun and pull it closer.


No, actually the distance is not the problem. If you look at the attached picture, the biggest red square is the space you would need to cover with solar panels to cover the energy demand of the entire world. 


Of course, the picture is from the year 2005, so the square today might be a little bigger - but on the other hand, the technical development has not stood still since then. 


If you now take this area and spread it across the world - this is actually feasible! It takes a whole lot of investment, that's for sure, but nuclear plants are not for free either - and they are dangerous, as we all know.


----------



## MattiG

Heico-M said:


> No, actually the distance is not the problem. If you look at the attached picture, the biggest red square is the space you would need to cover with solar panels to cover the energy demand of the entire world.


If it were closer, the gain per area would be higher and there would be not need to build a transmission system from Sahara to were people live.  The transmission is the issue, not capturing the energy.


----------



## Surel

Heico-M said:


> Objection:
> We do not need to build nuclear plants. The sun provides enough energy for the whole world's demand. We just have to collect it.


Sure 24/7. Orbital solar power plants could become a reality 100 years from now.



MattiG said:


> If it were closer, the gain per area would be higher and there would be not need to build a transmission system from Sahara to were people live.  The transmission is the issue, not capturing the energy.


Indeed. Transition, storage, grid management. All quite troublesome. There's simply no technology available aside from fossil, hydro or nuclear power plants that would be able to provide the base current to the grid.


----------



## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Heico-M said:


> Objection:
> We do not need to build nuclear plants. The sun provides enough energy for the whole world's demand. We just have to collect it.



The problem is that we do not have enough energy and rare metals to create so many solar panels. They would have such a big carbon debt from the beginning, that they wouldn't pay it at all.
The other thing is that solar panels are dangerous trash. There is currently no know technology how to recycle or decommission them. We can just store them and they leak heavy metals.


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## TM_Germany

^^Everything you just said is false but I agree with Michi that this OT.


----------



## rudiwien

ChrisZwolle said:


> An argument made in the Netherlands against EV subsidies is that the subsidies per saved tonne of CO2 is a magnitude of order greater than the 'market price' of CO2 under the emissions trading scheme.
> 
> The Dutch government stated that the market price of CO2 is € 23 per tonne of CO2, but EV subsidies amount to € 1700 per tonne of avoided CO2 emission (74 times more expensive), making it a very inefficient way to reduce CO2 emissions.



Just that buying emission certificates doesn't really reduce your CO2 emissions in the Netherlands, which should really be the goal, right?


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## Wilhem275

If the system is designed in a balanced way, the Dutch government reasoning is not wrong.

Economical resources are not infinite and one has to choose the best way to reach the goal. If they find a cheaper way to reduce emissions than subsidizing EV, then they can reduce more tons for the same amount of money and do better for the environment.

I always like to point out that the best way to have a non-polluting car is... not having the car in the first place. Money invested in helping people reducing their need for private mobility helps with CO2 AND al lot of other good things. Switching to EV solves just two problems but leaves plenty of others.

Which is my main economical doubt about these e-motorway projects. The goal shouldn't be having an electric driven truck instead of a diesel one: it should be to not have that truck at all on the road, with a lot of advantages for everyone.
Did they do a comparison with the effects of spending that money in projects to push for modal change?

These problems can't be evaluated one variable at a time, the bigger picture must be considered.


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## General Maximus

*A2 slaughterhouse for trucks*

Perhaps it's time to focus back on roads. Greetings from the A2 near Dortmund...


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## flapane

Ah! The exact one caught my attention a few days ago on the A1 around Wuppertal, if I'm not wrong.


----------



## MichiH

bogdymol said:


> Major upgrading works on A3 in Würzburg:


Old A3 bridge is gone:




Last piles have been blown up today (at 1:00 in the video). It's the segment where you see the crane on bogdymols pic.


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## MattiG

*A4 Thüringer Zipfel*

I have done some history research on the A4 at the border region of BRD and DDR. The facts are quite well know: The war canceled the works, and the road got complete no earlier than in 1994. The DDR built the road up to the border station of Herleshausen. The traffic between AS Wommen and AS Wildeck-Obersulh was diverted onto lower grade roads because the planned motorway passed through the area of the DDR.

The response to the "why" questions are not so easy to find:

- The transit routes from Berlin to Hamburg, Hannover, and München got ready quite early (financed by the BRD). Why did not DDR allow that pretty short leg to be completed?

- Why did the BRD not build a new road on their side of the border instead? That would have added the length of the road by a few kilometers only.

Please advise.


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## henmar

East Germany did not allow the missing link to be opened for traffic because it crossed the border several times and it was way too expensive for them to secure the road in order to not let anyone flee the country. From the 60s until the end of the 80s there were negotiations between West and East Germany ongoing regarding this, but without success.

Why did Germany not built a new motorway? First of all, traffic was so low on this section (I think max. 2000 cars/day) it did not really justify a new motorway. Most People from Frankfurt travelling to Berlin would take the A2 border point at Helmstedt in order to drive as few kms as possible on the poorly maintained and slow east german motorways. Second, as I wrote above, there were negotiations for 25 years to open the missing link, so there was always a possibility it will still open. Third, it was always west german policy to deem the inner german border as „temporary“. Building a new road would more or less accept the status of an independent and separate East Germany.


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## MichiH

^^ However, a section was opened in 1978 (1st c/w, 2nd c/w in 1980) and another one in early 1980s: http://www.autobahn-online.de/images/a4extra.html


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## MattiG

MichiH said:


> ^^ However, a section was opened in 1978 (1st c/w, 2nd c/w in 1980) and another one in early 1980s: http://www.autobahn-online.de/images/a4extra.html


This is how the Der Große ADAC Generalatlas @1985 presented the area:










The A4 had been recently extended from Eisenach-West to the new border station in Herleshausen.

This is how the area looked five years earlier, in the @1980 edition:


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## Wilhem275

I've been looking up for abandoned railways in the same area (roughly between Kassel and Erfurt). There's a long list of links killed by the border.


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## mgk920

Wilhem275 said:


> I've been looking up for abandoned railways in the same area (roughly between Kassel and Erfurt). There's a long list of links killed by the border.


How many of them were rebuilt and reopened when The Wall fell?

Mike


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## Wilhem275

Not many, just main corridors. Germany has an extensive network of "very local" rail lines, and the ex-border area still shows a lower density.

You can see the situation on this site: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/index.php


We can continue the discussion in this topic: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=309498&page=177


A part of the Kassel - Waldkappel RoW was used to build A44, east of Hessisch Lichtenau Ost.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A448 Bochum*

The 'Opel Querspange' project of A448 in Bochum is delayed again. It is now scheduled to be completed in late 2021. 

It is a 3 kilometer Autobahn project around the former Opel factory. Preliminary works began in September 2010 to acquire land, and in October 2011, clearing began. The official construction start was on 30 October 2012. 

When land acquistion began in 2010, they said the motorway would open in late 2013. That's now 8 years behind schedule. A year delay was reported every year. They also mentioned a € 30 million cost escalation.

>> https://www.waz.de/staedte/bochum/b...-um-30-millionen-euro-teurer-id219301187.html


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## Kanadzie

^^ the best is that the Opel factory, like you say, closed 2014 and was demolished in 2015 :lol:

I am not even sure if the idea for the project makes any sense at this point... maybe a 50 year delay would be okay.


----------



## MichiH

^^ The motorway is not being built for Opel plant (only). It‘s part of DüBoDo Project to improve traffic situation beween Düsseldorf, Bochum and Dortmund. It replaces the Former A44 project.

And no, Any delay is Bad per se because authority staffs are Blocked and cannot work on other Projects. And it costs a lot of money.


----------



## TM_Germany

So what has turned a 3-year project into a (for now) 11 year project? It's only a couple kilometers long.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I think it's your typical German approach of building everything sequential instead of simultaneously. And even this tiny segment has also been divided into two separate segments, the eastern 1.5 km or so opened last year. 

This way the annual expenses are very low. You only have to allocate a few millions worth of work each year, instead of condensing it into 3 years. 

It appears that this method is not preferred or planned in advance, otherwise they wouldn't rack up so many years delays each time. There is no point in proclaiming it will open in 3 years while you plan to complete in 11 years. 

This approach is common in many parts of Germany, though seems to be the worst in Western Germany. Perhaps they lack capacity to award all these tiny tenders in a short amount of time.


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think it's your typical German approach of building everything sequential instead of simultaneously. And even this tiny segment has also been divided into two separate segments, the eastern 1.5 km or so opened last year.
> 
> This way the annual expenses are very low. You only have to allocate a few millions worth of work each year, instead of condensing it into 3 years.
> 
> It appears that this method is not preferred or planned in advance, otherwise they wouldn't rack up so many years delays each time. There is no point in proclaiming it will open in 3 years while you plan to complete in 11 years.
> 
> This approach is common in many parts of Germany, though seems to be the worst in Western Germany. Perhaps they lack capacity to award all these tiny tenders in a short amount of time.


It's also fraught with the danger of having a later critical part of its routing cancelled by aggressive NIMBYs and/or environmental do-gooders, while had it been built it all at once, perhaps all of the planned A44 would now be complete and open.

Mike


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Perhaps they lack capacity to award all these tiny tenders in a short amount of time.


No, they need to do it subsequently because they indicate time periods. And they always blame EU for bad laws and bad tender terms - but it's their own stupid German bullshit way!


----------



## Patrick

Was in frankfurt today. I guess, these signs at A66 exit frankfurt-miquelallee are the very last remaining ones of their kind in all of germany: overhead wirh downpointed arrows.


----------



## Corvinus

A couple of my recent photos of A864, a very short (about 6km) connector motorway between B27 (at Donaueschingen) and A81 "Schwaben-Highway". 


1. B27 is a dual carriageway road where A864 is branching off











2. The exit from B27. The Ausfahrt sign should be yellow, B27 being a Bundesstrasse ("yellow Autobahn").











3. A864 starts











4. 











5. Dreieck Bad Dürrheim is the end of A864 ahead, where it merges into A81.











6. Choose your direction, north (Stuttgart) or south (Singen)











7. 











8. 











9. This is the arch to then merge into A81 direction of Stuttgart 











10. Lane ends just right before the merge











11. A81 ahead


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## verreme

^^ This was supposed to become A98, right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A98 was planned (and partially built) farther south. This was supposed to become A86, which was planned across the route Breisach - Freiburg im Breisgau - Donaueschingen - Tuttlingen - Herbertingen - Ulm - Langenau.









Source: http://autobahnatlas-online.de/Karte.htm


----------



## MichiH

A3 Würzburg is an accident blackspot for many years now. Maybe you remember pics of the long-term widening project u/c. On Tuesday, a truck crashed into a caravan. Vehicles didn't create a _Rettungsgasse_ and rescue crews had to walk to the accident scene. Then, finally a _Rettungsgasse_ was created but a truck driver took the chance to drive to the rest area because he had to pee. He failed and blocked the _Rettungsgasse_. Autobahn was closed for many hours ("noon to evening"). Partial source.

Today, a truck crashed into two other trucks, all burned out. It happened at 2:40PM. The westbound carriageway is opened again, eastbound carriageway will be opened tomorrow morning when the road surface is renewed. Source. Source.


----------



## cinxxx

^^I noticed everytime that when a Stau happens nobody bothers creating Rettungsgasse. 
In Austria for example they do it right away,


----------



## TM_Germany

Recently I got into a jam after an accident and a Rettungsgasse was formed even before coming to a stop, I was surprised. I think it takes just a few cars at the beginning of a jam to do it for everyone else to follow.


----------



## Don Alessandro

The german Public Accounts Commitee gave an positive opinion on widening A8 from Chiemsee the the border at Bad Reichenhall. 

I hope this will push some things forward.

Here is the article (german):

https://www.rosenheim24.de/bayern/a8-ausbau-ausschuss-beschliesst-sechsspurige-a8-zwischen-chiemsee-landesgrenze-12359354.html


----------



## rudiwien

cinxxx said:


> ^^I noticed everytime that when a Stau happens nobody bothers creating Rettungsgasse.
> In Austria for example they do it right away,



Which is kind-of ironic, because when it was introduced in Austria, it was cited that it would work great in Germany.
There have been two studies that tried to prove that the Rettungsgasse has brought an improvement to the situation before (which was to use the emergency strip), but both failed. It has been shown that in 58% of the cases emergency vehicles actually came to a stop in the Rettungsgasse. So I wouldn't conclude that it is done "right away" in Austria...
We have less Autobahns, maybe less traffic and less crashes, so maybe it isn't so often in the news.. But I doubt that it works good here..


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ it is an unusual solution... why is it a problem for emergency vehicles to reach the danger spot... it is basically unknown phenomenon in, e.g., USA and they have many many autobahns and many crashes too. If they just made emergency strip 50 cm wider (or whatever small detail) maybe never there would be a problem?


----------



## TM_Germany

Yeah the problem seems to stem from the fact that Germany has very narrow shoulders (usually 2.5m) which is not enough for many emergency vehicles. Also there are mostly no shoulders on exits and it isn't uncommon that older bridges have no shoulders as well. 

It does make me wonder though because the U.S. also has some expressways without shoulders and other countries like Italy should have the same problem as well.


----------



## MichiH

^^ I agree 100% with your answers and I'm wondering the same about other countries.


----------



## MichiH

The plan approval order for the eastern-most A94 section from Kirchham to Pocking (A3) was passed in July 2018 but it was challenged. 4 out of 6 complaints have already been solved without court. 2 complaints are still in negotiation. It was reported that the complaints are from land owners who want more compensating land (or money). Nevertheless, the Federal Ministry of Transport has approved funding now. 231.4 million € for 12.5km. Construction works should start in 2021.

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayer...er-fertig-das-spart-niederbayern-zeit,RE5hjqV
https://plus.pnp.de/lokales/pocking/3342641_Minister-informiert-CSU-Parteikollegen.html
https://www.pnp.de/lokales/stadt_un...ister-Scheuer-sagt-230-Millionen-Euro-zu.html


----------



## MichiH

The Federal Administrative court
- will publish their decision about complaints against the plan approval order for A143 Halle on 12th June 10AM (12km)
- will held the hearing about complaints against the plan approval order for the southern-most A39 section north of Wolfsburg on 25/26th June (14km)


----------



## Ni3lS

Corvinus said:


> A couple of my recent photos of A864, a very short (about 6km) connector motorway between B27 (at Donaueschingen) and A81 "Schwaben-Highway".


Nice! I just drove that today. The navi wanted me to go via Karlsruhe > A8 back home (from Basel area) but I decided to take this route instead and then the A81 up. I just hate that A8 stretch near Pforzheim, I just get angry once I see the traffic pile up ahead of me. Dumbest bottleneck ever.

The A81 would have been faster.. Instead there was a crash so we stood in traffic for an hour or so.



cinxxx said:


> ^^I noticed everytime that when a Stau happens nobody bothers creating Rettungsgasse.
> In Austria for example they do it right away,


I can't do a longer stretch in Germany without hitting some kind of traffic following an accident. I have to say, in all the recent jams that I was in there was always a rettungsgasse and it was functional too. Today it all worked pretty much okay until some assjockeys started to use highway parking lots to skip traffic or use the emergency lane. People blocking them resulted in some kind of road rage and blocking the rettungsgasse. hno: 

I have been driving longer distances lately on the bank holiday weekends and I have to say, it's been pretty awful. Last week sunday it took me 5 hours from Koblenz to Stuttgart, including a scenic 1.5 hour drive through Pforzheim :sarcasm:


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> ^^ I agree 100% with your answers and I'm wondering the same about other countries.


It seems to me that there is a common trend to build narrower roads for cost reasons. The Finnish standard for a "narrow motorway" (max speed 100 km/h) declares a carriageway of two lanes of 3.50 meters wide plus the hard shoulder of 1.50 meters. The total width of 8.50 meters (plus the 0.50+ meters between the left lane and the middle divider) is well enough for two stationary vehicle queues and the space for emergency vehicles, if people behave well enough.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ni3lS said:


> I have been driving longer distances lately on the bank holiday weekends and I have to say, it's been pretty awful. Last week sunday it took me 5 hours from Koblenz to Stuttgart, including a scenic 1.5 hour drive through Pforzheim :sarcasm:


I drove from the Netherlands to Italy on Sunday (A3-A67-A6-A81-A8-A7). While I did not encounter traffic jams, it was quite busy, even on the mostly six lane stretches there weren't many people going over 150, there was no point, even without trucks. 

I suppose there aren't many light traffic days anymore, at least not on the main corridors.

Also there is a huge amount of speed limits of 100 or below, often briefly for brückenschäden or some construction. I couldn't use cruise control for long stretches like in France or Spain.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I suppose there aren't many light traffic days anymore, at least not on the main corridors.
> I couldn't use cruise control for long stretches like in France or Spain.


There is no reason to avoid driving on German Autobahns. It's different in France, Spain or Italy where you have to pay tolls per use.

btw: I came back from Italy on Sunday but I only drove A81 b/n Stuttgart and Heilbronn too


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## Kanadzie

MattiG said:


> It seems to me that there is a common trend to build narrower roads for cost reasons. The Finnish standard for a "narrow motorway" (max speed 100 km/h) declares a carriageway of two lanes of 3.50 meters wide plus the hard shoulder of 1.50 meters. The total width of 8.50 meters (plus the 0.50+ meters between the left lane and the middle divider) is well enough for two stationary vehicle queues and the space for emergency vehicles, if people behave well enough.


It is curious - in US / Canada it is surely the opposite. It was common before especially in urban areas to make lanes and shoulders very narrow, but now always (in Canada particularly) lanes 3,75 m and shoulder 3,00 m paved minimum...


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## mgk920

Kanadzie said:


> It is curious - in US / Canada it is surely the opposite. It was common before especially in urban areas to make lanes and shoulders very narrow, but now always (in Canada particularly) lanes 3,75 m and shoulder 3,00 m paved minimum...


Required minimum lane and shoulder widths for 'interstate' design standards in the USA were tightened, I want to say during the late 1960s or early 1970s. With special efforts, an exception due to local conditions can be made.

Mike


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The Federal Administrative court
> - will publish their decision about complaints against the plan approval order for A143 Halle on 12th June 10AM (12km)


Appeals were dismissed!


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## MichiH

Ni3lS said:


> Nice! I just drove that today. The navi wanted me to go via Karlsruhe > A8 back home (from Basel area) but I decided to take this route instead and then the A81 up. *I just hate that A8 stretch near Pforzheim, I just get angry once I see the traffic pile up ahead of me. Dumbest bottleneck ever.*


Good news! You can enjoy A81 longer since there is another delay for A8 widening. The _Bauausführungsplanung_ (the final design planning, preparation for tendering) for the widening of the carriageways done by an external planning agency was already delayed last year and is delayed again. The planning was started in Mid 2017 and it should be done by early 2020 now so that the tender procedure can be started. Construction works should be started in 2nd half of 2020 now. The total delay is 1 1/2 years now. Preliminary works and bridge construction is already u/c or planning is completed.

Reason:


> Die Gemeinschaft begründet die weitere Terminverschiebung mit unvorhersehbaren, betriebsinternen Ereignissen sowie mit im Rahmen des internen Controllings festgestellten Planungsdefiziten, die zunächst behoben werden müssten.


-->


> The planning group justifies the delay with unpredictable internal events and planning deficits which have been determined by internal controllings and had been fixed


https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rpk/Seiten/pressemitteilung.aspx?rid=1535


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## TM_Germany

great... and a construction time of 6 years iirc for those few km? Well we can reasonably expect delays there too hno:


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## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> great... and a construction time of 6 years iirc for those few km? Well we can reasonably expect delays there too hno:


The Saxony-Anhalt Minister of Transport said that construction works might begin at Salzmünde interchange this fall. The first bigger bridge construction should be started in Summer 2020 (250m viaduct just south of the i/c). The construction of the River Saale crossing (958m viaduct) should begin 2nd half of 2020. The motorway should be opened in late 2025.

http://www.presse.sachsen-anhalt.de...5&identifier=d9b22e305380541991aa00b082bab202

Press release of court: https://www.bverwg.de/de/pm/2019/46 A property owner has complained against the plan approval order in 2005 but since the order was invalid, the court procedure was on hold by March 2018... Dismissed now but more than one year lost again.


btw: The last plan approval order for A281 Bremen ring road was passed in late May (I think it was not yet reported here, was it?). It should be completed by 2024 when the other section (Weser crossing) will be opened too.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Good news! You can enjoy A81 longer since there is another delay for A8 widening.


@*Ni3lS*, you can soon decide now which lovely construction site you wanna enjoy.

A81 widening from 2x2 to 2x3 (7.1km) just south of Stuttgart b/n Sindelfingen-Ost and Böblingen-Hulb is finally funded now, see press release. Construction works are expected to be started in late 2020 and to be completed by 2026 at the latest. Total invest: 226 million €. The predicted AADT is 97,600 vehicles/day on the southern and 137,000 vehicles/day on the northern segment. The plan approval order is definitive since February 2019.

https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rps/Abt4/Ref44/Seiten/A81_Sifi_BB.aspx


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## ChrisZwolle

6 lanes for 137,000 vehicles per day is underdesigned from the beginning...


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## MichiH

^^ yep, and it was already 131,754 vehicles/day in 2018 - there is an automated counter. It grew by 5,7% since 2008. The predicted grow is just another 4%.
https://www.svz-bw.de/fileadmin/verkehrszaehlung/dz/ganglinien_bab/A81_Boeblingen.pdf

Edit: And Monday-Friday stats are 141,851 - with 2x2 lanes, source.


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## TM_Germany

This kind of incompetent planning is absolutely unbelievable hno:


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## MichiH

^^ I've only taken the figures from the project site but have not checked the documents - and planning procedure took too long to remember all details. Now I've checked the documents:

Predicted AADT (I think for 2025):
AK Stuttgart – AS Sindelfingen-Ost: 137,600 Kfz/24h
AS Sindelfingen Ost – AS Böblingen-Ost: 119,200 Kfz/24h
AS Böblingen-Ost – AS Böblingen/Sindelfingen: 107,100 Kfz/24h
AS Böblingen/Sindelfingen – AS Böblingen-Hulb: 97,300 Kfz/24h

The 137,600-segment is NOT part of the approved and funded widening. It belongs to the reconstruction of AK Stuttgart project which includes 2x3 widening of this A81 segment plus temporary shoulder running (2.1km) and 2x4 widening of A8 (4.1km). The FS was completed in November 2017 and the construction _should be_ completed by 2026 together with the approved and funded A81 widening.

The approved and funded segments will also get 2x3 lanes plus temporary shoulder running.

btw: The project site really indicates 137,000 but the documents 137,600....


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## MattiG

TM_Germany said:


> This kind of incompetent planning is absolutely unbelievable hno:


But is it about bad planning or is it about politics?

(I know a sparsely populated country in the Northern Europe, where politicians tend to ignore every fact. I believe it is not very different in most other countries.)


----------



## MichiH

MattiG said:


> But is it about bad planning or is it about politics?



Politics. The Bundesverkehrswegeplan (federal demand plan) is a _law_. And planning authorities get their mandate by the Federal Ministry of Transport.


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## TM_Germany

Aren't the projects in the BVWP submitted by the states though? In 2015 it should have been plenty clear enough that the threshhold of 100,000 was reached. Why did nobody notice/care? 

To be honest, I'm not sure if there ever was a widening in Germany where they added more than one lane in one go.


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## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> Aren't the projects in the BVWP submitted by the states though? In 2015 it should have been plenty clear enough that the threshhold of 100,000 was reached. Why did nobody notice/care?


AADT was already 122,182 in 2002 when the BVWP 2003 was arranged (I don't have older figures). The widening project is in the demand plan (BVWP) since 1985 when it was decided not to build the new A81 alignment from Leonberg to Gärtringen. Widening is urgent demand since 1993 and planning was started in 1996(!). Source. The planning procedure took so long because residents wanted better kind of noise protection. They'll get an artificial tunnel now. 

http://www.leisea81.de/Pages/Mittendrin.html

The residential areas were build in 1950s on green field. In 1969 the construction of 2x2 B14 was started through the residential areas. In 1972 it was dedicated being A831 as a temporary solution to have a continuous motorway connection. Temporarily, because the A81 west of Böblingen was planned to be completed by 1984/85.



TM_Germany said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure if there ever was a widening in Germany where they added more than one lane in one go.


A5 Frankfurt - Darmstadt in 1970s.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> 6 lanes for 137,000 vehicles per day is underdesigned from the beginning...


Yes. Ant that section runs through a forest so that it would be not so difficult to widen to 2×4. A little bit further southbound, between Sindelfingen and Böblingen, there is a lot of buildings only a few meters apart from the motorway, that section is not so easy.


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## MattiG

MichiH said:


> Politics. The Bundesverkehrswegeplan (federal demand plan) is a _law_. And planning authorities get their mandate by the Federal Ministry of Transport.


I tend to believe.

The highway capacity forecasting models have in place for decades. I am 100% sure that they are know in Germany, too.

But if the planner tells that 5+5 will be enough and the politicians respond that 3+3 is the maximum, then the road will be planned 3+3. C'est la vie, but it is not bad planning but bad decision making.


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## Ni3lS

MichiH said:


> @*Ni3lS*, you can soon decide now which lovely construction site you wanna enjoy.
> 
> A81 widening from 2x2 to 2x3 (7.1km) just south of Stuttgart b/n Sindelfingen-Ost and Böblingen-Hulb is finally funded now, see press release. Construction works are expected to be started in late 2020 and to be completed by 2026 at the latest. Total invest: 226 million €. The predicted AADT is 97,600 vehicles/day on the southern and 137,000 vehicles/day on the northern segment. The plan approval order is definitive since February 2019.
> 
> https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rps/Abt4/Ref44/Seiten/A81_Sifi_BB.aspx


icard:

I am being boxed in!


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## Rohne

Kanadzie said:


> It is curious - in US / Canada it is surely the opposite. It was common before especially in urban areas to make lanes and shoulders very narrow, but now always (in Canada particularly) lanes 3,75 m and shoulder 3,00 m paved minimum...


shoulders of only 2.5m are very uncommon, can be found only on some urban motorways or where the now abolished RQ 26 (4 lanes) or RQ 33 (6 lanes) had been used - both only existed from the 90s to 2008. All other sections have shoulders of 3m to even 3.75m.


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## Rohne

MichiH said:


> ^^ I've only taken the figures from the project site but have not checked the documents - and planning procedure took too long to remember all details. Now I've checked the documents:
> 
> Predicted AADT (I think for 2025):
> AK Stuttgart – AS Sindelfingen-Ost: 137,600 Kfz/24h
> AS Sindelfingen Ost – AS Böblingen-Ost: 119,200 Kfz/24h
> AS Böblingen-Ost – AS Böblingen/Sindelfingen: 107,100 Kfz/24h
> AS Böblingen/Sindelfingen – AS Böblingen-Hulb: 97,300 Kfz/24h
> 
> The 137,600-segment is NOT part of the approved and funded widening. It belongs to the reconstruction of AK Stuttgart project which includes 2x3 widening of this A81 segment plus temporary shoulder running (2.1km) and 2x4 widening of A8 (4.1km). The FS was completed in November 2017 and the construction _should be_ completed by 2026 together with the approved and funded A81 widening.
> 
> The approved and funded segments will also get 2x3 lanes plus temporary shoulder running.
> 
> btw: The project site really indicates 137,000 but the documents 137,600....



According to the plan approval documents (pdf, 6MB, see the very last page), the most congested section AK Stuttgart - Sindelfingen-Ost will have 4 regular lanes + shoulders per direction. This section is 3+3 already today (without hard shoulders which are currently used as a permanent third lane). Also project page in the link you added yesterday evening is clearly saying it will be s4+4s ("adding a lane and a shoulder per direction"), with temporary shoulder running they refer to the neighboring sections to the south. 
Sindelfingen-Ost - Böblingen-Ost will have 4 regular lanes + hard shoulder in direction Stuttgart, and in direction Singen it will have 3 regular lanes + temporary shoulder running.
Böblingen-Ost - Böblingen-Sindelfingen will have 3 regular lanes + temporary shoulder running in both directions.
They said it was simulated, that 3 lanes + temporary shoulder running could cope with the congestion. Morning traffic peaks (to be observed in direction Stuttgart where the section with 4 regular lanes is longer) are normally higher than the evening peaks.
So it is not as bad as it seems. At least for the first few years after road works end. Problem is, there's not too much reserve for future growth.


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## MichiH

*A6 Mannheim - Heilbronn*



ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove from the Netherlands to Italy on Sunday (A3-A67-A6-A81-A8-A7). While I did not encounter traffic jams, it was quite busy, even on the mostly six lane stretches there weren't many people going over 150, there was no point, even without trucks.


You obviously drove A6 from AK Walldorf (A5) to AK Weinsberg (A81). It was partially 3-laned since shoulders have been turned into normal lanes long ago. Some stretches were reconstructed to 2x3 with hard shoulders over the years, e.g. Steinsfurt-Bad Rappenau in 2010/11. The remaining 2x3 upgrade is realized as PPP now. Tender procedure was started in September 2014 and construction works began in spring 2017. The PPP section has a length of 47km and the contract with ViA6West runs for 30 years (from 1st May 2017) and includes maintenance.

Due to the Bundesgartenschau 2019 in Heilbronn - "a biennial federal horticulture show" - the concessionaire was forced to open the Neckar viaduct at Heilbronn 2x3 before the show began in April. However, they have managed to open ALL sections 2x3 now. 6km were opened in December 2018 and 5km in March 2019 west of Sindheim. The Neckar bridge is 2x3 in service since early April and the section west of it was mostly 2x3 in late April but the last short 2-laned segment Bad Rappenau i/c still existed in Mid May. It's also 3-laned now according to the webcam. Widening works - renovation of carriageways and adding hard shoulders et cetera - will continue in 2020.


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## ChrisZwolle

I did drove that section indeed. It was three lanes eastbound all the way from Walldorf (A5) to Weinsberg (A81). 

Traffic flow is much better now than last year, though the Neckar Bridge is still a bit of a bottleneck as it is still in workzone configuration, but at least with six lanes. The new bridge looks interesting. 

I also drove the Albaufstieg of A8, it was actually my first time driving there myself, I only crossed it as a passenger in the late 1990s. Boy that situation is substandard! I don't understand why it's taking so long to fix that bottleneck, they are constructing a huge railway bridge across the valley near Mühlhausen. If that is possible, why not the motorway?


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I also drove the Albaufstieg of A8, it was actually my first time driving there myself, I only crossed it as a passenger in the late 1990s. Boy that situation is substandard! I don't understand why it's taking so long to fix that bottleneck, they are constructing a huge railway bridge across the valley near Mühlhausen. If that is possible, why not the motorway?


It was planned to finance the new Albaufstieg with tolls. It was planned to build toll booth east of the new stretch. There was opposition to tolls but "normal" funding was not available in 2000s. The plan approval procedure was stopped in 2005. It was finally resumed in June 2018 and it's announced that the plan approval order should be issued in fall 2019. Construction works might take place from 2021 to 2027.

AADT 2015 was 68,000 vehicles/day, truck share 16%. The first carriageway is from 1937, the 2nd one from 1957. There is no hard shoulder and the slope is 5-6%. Planning for the new Albaufstieg was started in 1970s. The decision for the new alignment was approved in 1993. Planning documents were approved by the Federal Ministry of Transport in 2001. The plan approval procedure began in 2004 and was stopped in 2005, see above.

violet = existing carriageways
red = new alignment
brown = railway track u/c









The new stretch has a length of 7.6km and will feature 2x3 lanes plus hard shoulders. It includes two tunnels (1.2km and 1.7km) and two viaducts (810m long and 52m high, 470m long and 71m high). The predicted AADT is 86,000 vehicles/day with 18% truck share. Total costs: more than 600 million €.

https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rps/Abt4/Ref44/Seiten/A8_S-Ulm.aspx


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A30:* AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North 5.3km (September 2008 to Summer 2019) [2nd c/w] [discontinuation: 1.4km] – project – map


Both carriageways are in service now but still with reduced lane width on the first westbound carriageway. Remaining works should be completed this summer.

https://www.westfalen-blatt.de/OWL/...plant-Nordumgehung-Verkehrsfuehrung-geaendert


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## MattiG

Helsingin Sanomat, the #1 daily newspaper in Finland, published today a four-page article about the town of Görlitz. The article is a part of a series of analysis about what has happened in the eastern European countries since the big changes of 1989.

Today's article focuses on the campaign to attract people to move to Görlitz, and on the political party AfD gaining more footprint the east parts of Germany. What is interesting there, is the info graphics map to show the forecasted change in the population between the years 2012 and 2030. The dark red color equals to a decrease of more than 10 per cent, and the blue one to an increase of more than four per cent.










For an outsider, it is quite easy to draw a conclusion that the integration of the ex-DDR has not been extremely successful, despite of the massive amounts of money invested.

What comes to investments into roads and other infrastructure, the map raises (at least) two big questions:

1) Is it better to invest less because people are moving away?

2) It is better to invest more to stop the trend of moving away?


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## MichiH

MattiG said:


> For an outsider, it is quite easy to draw a conclusion that the integration of the ex-DDR has not been extremely successful, despite of the massive amounts of money invested.


The problem was that the infrastructure was in a very bad state. I think that the money was mostly used to catch up the deficit. However, the decision to widen A2, A4 and A9 to 2x3 lanes was wise - although AADT is often less than on non-DDR 2x2 Autobahns.

Note: The blue regions, where a population increase of more than 5% is predicted, do also show more or less the regions where we already have most bottlenecks today: Hamburg, Berlin, Cologne, Rhein-Main (Frankfurt), Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria.



MattiG said:


> What comes to investments into roads and other infrastructure, the map raises (at least) two big questions:
> 1) Is it better to invest less because people are moving away?
> 2) It is better to invest more to stop the trend of moving away?


I don't think that the trend can be stopped. However, not investing means giving up. There is only one big road infrastructure project underway, A14 from Schwerin to Magdeburg (and completion of A72 and A143 near Leipzig which does also have a predicted increase of more than 5%). That means, the investment has already been reduced. To be honest, there is no demand for any new motorway in the east.

It's important to consider improving the infrastructure connecting the "blue" regions too. And the existing bootlenecks in western and southern Germany must be fixed, of course.


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## MichiH

*A33 - good and bad news!*



MichiH said:


> *A33:* AS Halle-Künsebeck – AS Bielefeld-Center 7.9km (September 2009 to 4th April 2018) – project – map
> *A33:* north of AS Halle – Halle-Künsebeck 4.9km (December 2012 to 11th January 2019) – project – map
> *A33:* AS Borgholzhausen – north of AS Halle 7.9km (December 2012 to Late 2019) – project – map
> *B51:* north of Belm – AS Belm (A33) 4.5km (February 2015 to Late 2019) – project – map
> *A33:* AS Belm (B51) – south of AS Osnabrück-Schinkel 2.2km (February 2015 to Late 2019) – project – map


Borgholzhausen - Halle is _on schedule_ but it won't be opened this fall. The opening will be in *winter*. I'm not sure whether it will be opened the day before Christmas but since we had a similar issue on the neighboring section last year - everything was done by Christmas but the section could not be opened because maintenance guys were not available due to Christmas - I think that it will be opened in January at the earliest (I'll indicate it '>= Late December 2019'). Source (last paragraph only, rest is about a damage on section in service)


The western A33 and B51 sections of Belm bypass were *opened* on 12th June. It's still a construction site with reduced speed limit though. Only the sections from Osnabrück-Schinkel to AS Icker Landstraße (L87) were opened. The remaining section of the bypass is 2x2 up to AS Vehrte (2.0km) but only 2+1 for the last 1km. Source.

And another good news: The plan approval procedure for the very last A33 section will be started soon. There is an info day next Friday: www.buergerdialog-a33nord.de/
*A33:* AD Osnabrück-North (A1) – AS Belm (B51) 9.2km (2021 to <= 2030?) – project – map


btw: And the new A46 section Bestwig-Nuttlar is still on schedule - to be opened in 4th quarter 2019. Source.


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## stickedy

MichiH said:


> The problem was that the infrastructure was in a very bad state. I think that the money was mostly used to catch up the deficit.


There is no catch up yet. The motorway network is now basically on par, but the main road system, especially in mountainous areas, is still inferior to West Germany.

For example, a lot of village and city bypasses are still missing. It's a nightmare to drive on normal roads. Of course, there are exceptions, but the vast majority of road connections is far away from West German standards. And compare driving for example in Bayerischer Wald with Erzgebirge or Frankenwald with Thüringer Wald... Still a long way to go


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## MichiH

stickedy said:


> And compare driving for example in Bayerischer Wald with Erzgebirge or Frankenwald with Thüringer Wald... Still a long way to go


Frankenwald and Bayerischer Wald were "Zonenrandgebiet" with special threatment even before 1990. Compare it to Steigerwald or Schwäbische Alb.


On the other hand, it's odd but one of the worst regions about road infrastructure - Stuttgart - has a very good economy.


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## Attus

According to European Court of Justice German toll is against EU rules.


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## henmar

MichiH said:


> Both carriageways are in service now but still with reduced lane width on the first westbound carriageway. Remaining works should be completed this summer.
> 
> https://www.westfalen-blatt.de/OWL/...plant-Nordumgehung-Verkehrsfuehrung-geaendert


But only on 1.5 km around AS Gohfeld. The other 3.8 km towards Bad Oeynhausen-Nord are still 4+0.


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## cinxxx

Attus said:


> According to European Court of Justice German toll is against EU rules.


Very good.
Also I read that implementing the system they wanted would have resulted into more spending than receiving, which would just be ridiculous.


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## MichiH

henmar said:


> But only on 1.5 km around AS Gohfeld. The other 3.8 km towards Bad Oeynhausen-Nord are still 4+0.


Thanks, the report wasn't clear to me.


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## IOOI

Attus said:


> This photo was shot between 1965-68 (in Fortepan database it's dated to 1962, but it's wrong and shall be corrected). I'm 99% sure it's Leipzig, Roßplatz (northbound).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.fortepan.hu/?language=en-US&image_id=176095
> It's weird that Hermsdorfer kreuz is signalized, which is approx. 80 kms apart, but Schkeuditzer Kreuz, near to Leipzig, is not.


The reason might be that the Hermsdorfer Kreuz was of much higher importance right then. The BAB 14 was only a stub in the sixties: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesautobahn_14#Geschichte says that between 1936 and 1970 the BAB 14 was done only from Halle/Peißen (nowadays Nº 17) to Leipzig (Ost) (nowadays Nº 26). Whereas the BAB 4 (which crosses at Hermdorfer Kreuz) already reached from Weimar till Bautzen and as such was of much more important.

That's at least what I think of it.

regards,

IOOI


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## ChrisZwolle

From a DDR point of view the A9 also did not serve any major destinations south of Leipzig, just regional towns and villages, especially beyond the Hermsdorfer Kreuz. It is also one of the oldest interchanges in Germany, built in 1937.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Hermsdorfer Kreuz. It is also one of the oldest interchanges in Germany, built in 1937.


When it was opened in December 1936, it was the 2nd one after Schkeuditzer Kreuz at Leipzig - also mentioned by Attus - which was opened in November 1936, but fully completed in November 1938.


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## Attus

Bender said:


> 5 years complete closure of a major road. Yep, that's Germany.


No. That ramp has not been opened this morning. THIS is Germany


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## ChrisZwolle

*A643 Mainz*

The plans for the A643 widening at Mainz are published: https://pfv.lbm-rlp.org/de/planfeststellungsverfahren/bab/a643-as-mz-gonsenheim-as-mz-mombach/

Unfortunately it's only a very short 2 km section between the Mainz-Mombach and Mainz-Gonsenheim interchanges. But one that runs across a nature reserve and requires a bit of bridgework across it.










The Mainz-Mombach interchange. The bridge to the north (right) is currently under construction and half completed.









Near the Mainz-Gonsenheim interchange. This looks like a wildlife crossing, the six lane segment will end here (temporarily), but it looks like it is designed to carry six through lanes and a/deceleration lanes.


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## ChrisZwolle

*bridge blues*

A report by NDR about a bridge that is at danger of collapsing of A29 at the Zetel interchange (north of Oldenburg). It will be reduced to single lane traffic this week. 

However, it's interesting that the guy mentions this bridge is 45 years old (thus 1974) but has been designed according to a static model from 1953!

Germany raised the maximum weight from 32 to 38 tons in 1965, if bridges built after that were designed according to a 1953 model, it may explain why so many late 1960s and early 1970s bridges in Germany are beyond repair compared to other countries. 45 years is not an old bridge. But if it was designed with lower standards, it may have been over capacity throughout its life. 

>> https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/nied...A-29-Bruecke-gesperrt,autobahnbruecke122.html

>> https://www.strassenbau.niedersachs...neue-verkehrsfuhrung-eingerichtet-179754.html


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## MichiH

Maybe you remember that Germany had planned to introduce a car toll. It was not allowed by EU court and German authorities dismissed contracts with the contractors. Media has reported that the contractors might charge compensation. The German Minister of Transport didn't expect that they want compensation and I have now found an interesting official statement by the ministry: https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/654726-654726

There were two reasons for canceling the contracts:

The contractors didn't met several deadlines for submitting of planning documents
regulative reasons (the court decision)

The Federal Ministry of Transport is now checking whether they can get compensation for the bad job of the comtractors.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## MattiG

MichiH said:


> Maybe you remember that Germany had planned to introduce a car toll. It was not allowed by EU court and German authorities dismissed contracts with the contractors. Media has reported that the contractors might charge compensation.


It is quite amateurish to make such an agreement without proper exit statements at changes of legislation or the prerequisites. The exit statement, of course, can grant a compensation if the contractor has already made investments, which cannot be re-used.


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## MichiH

A car from UK was burning on A3 west of Nuremberg today. The driver stopped under a bridge which must be investigated now. The Autobahn is open again, the bridge is closed.

News article with a video: https://www.infranken.de/regional/b...bis-zum-abend-voll-gesperrt;art170740,4395946
Press release about closure: http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...ahndirektion/aktuelles/2019_08_22_w_54_19.pdf
I think it should be here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/49.73272/10.66707


----------



## MichiH

The so-called Hochstraße Süd in Ludwigshafen was closed today. It's an elevated 4-laned expressway through the city. It's closed from the interchange to Hochstraße Nord to the River Rhine bridge (the latter is opened though) due to cracks in the construction. AADT is about 59,000 vehicles/day. The elevated road was built in 1959 and renovated from 1985 to 1988. It was reported long ago that it must be renovated again. Vehicles wider than 2m are not allowed on the road since 2010. The northern elevated expressway was built from 1970 to 1981 and must be reconstructed. AADT is just 45,000 vehicles/day. These are the only road crossings over River Rhine between Ludwigshafen (171,000 inhabitants) and Mannheim (309,000 inhabitants). It was planned to renovate the southern expressway before the northern expressway will be torn down.

https://www.rnz.de/nachrichten/metr...sgruenden-komplett-gesperrt-_arid,461646.html
https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/rhein...dwigshafen,hochstrasse-sued-gesperrt-100.html

People should bypass the cities. The next bridge to the north (10km) is A6 but there's a construction site. The next bridge to the south is A61 (20km).


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Are both bridges closed at the same time?


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Are both bridges closed at the same time?


:dunno:

It was planned to renovate the southern one first. It must be investigated now, whether it can be opened again. The northern one is still open because its demolition was postponed again last January. It was then planned that preliminary works for the demolition should start in Mid 2020. Completion of the new northern expressway: 2029. Afterwards, the southern expressway should be reconstructed too.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Are both bridges closed at the same time?


Just to make sure that you got it right: The Rhine bridges are not effected, just both elevated bridges heading to the Rhine bridges.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

According to the article, the rehabilitation of the southern viaduct has been planned since 1993. So after 26 years of planning and doing nothing, a closure has become unavoidable?


----------



## MichiH

^^ Correct.

The northern expressway costs more than 300 million €, the southern expressway costs more than 500 million €. Both belong to the city of Ludwigshafen.


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> Just to make sure that you got it right: The Rhine bridges are not effected, just both elevated bridges heading to the Rhine bridges.


Ok. I guess the final effect is the same, though.


----------



## MichiH

^^ not exactly, you can still leave at the first exit but you'll get stuck in city streets there.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.4802616,8.4543388,19z/data=!5m1!1e1


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ADAC figures reveal that 2019 was a disastrous summer on the motorway system of Northern Germany, the amount of traffic congestion was 19,000 kilometers on summer weekends from 28 June to 11 August, which is +52% compared to 2018.

>> https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/ADAC-Bilanz-Laengere-Staus-in-diesem-Sommer,staubilanz114.html

The problem with Northern Germany, in particular Northwestern Germany, is that these bottlenecks are almost impossible to avoid. A lot of traffic congestion occurs on A1 and A7, which intersect at Hamburg. Oftentimes both A1 and A7 have huge delays at Hamburg. The Hamburg - Hannover segment and the Bremen - Osnabrück segments are also terribly congested.

Sunday 18 August around 1:30 p.m., typical traffic:


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a new opening date for the 33 kilometer section of A94 in southeastern Germany between Pastetten and Heldenstein: 30 September 2019, which is a month before schedule.


There is a new opening date for the 33 kilometer section of A94 in southeastern Germany between Pastetten and Heldenstein: between 1 and 5 October 2019, which is on schedule.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/erding/a94-isental-anspannung-polizei-feuerwehr-1.4571402


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is a new opening date for the 33 kilometer section of A94 in southeastern Germany between Pastetten and Heldenstein: 30 September 2019, which is a month before schedule.


There is a new opening date for the 33 kilometer section of A94 in southeastern Germany between Pastetten and Heldenstein: between 1st and 5th October 2019, which is just on schedule.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/erding/a94-isental-anspannung-polizei-feuerwehr-1.4571402


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The worst seemed to be Northern Germany this year. Earlier, NDR reported that the summer traffic congestion increased by 52% compared to 2018. Most of that congestion occurs on just two Autobahnen: A1 and A7. 

Southern Germany appeared to have less extreme congestion in comparison to previous years. In particular on A3 and A5.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I found this 1970 article from a Dutch newspaper about a traffic sign in Germany. According to the article, this sign can be found on the Autobahn between Cologne and Düsseldorf.


80 mit spikes by European Roads, on Flickr

Interesting usage of exonym 'Dusseldorp'. It's a literal translation from dorf > dorp. Nobody uses this today. Keulen (Köln/Cologne) is still in use.


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## mgk920

80 km/h speed limit if your car has studded tires?

Mike


----------



## MichiH

^^ yep! Spikes were allowed in Germany back then but are forbidden to be used since 1975. There are a few exceptions, for instance, close to the Austrian border.


----------



## Wolfgang16

*B 23 Kramertunnel*

Works on the B23 bypass of Garmisch-Partenkirchen have been resumed after it had been stopped in 2013 due to water problems. You can see the full project here

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/47.4954/11.0710

At the northern entrance of the Kramertunnel the Austrian company Habau builds a second bridge parallel to the existing bridge. It will be finished end 2020.
https://www.stbawm.bayern.de/service/medien/pressemitteilungen/2019/76/index.html

DSCF5490c by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

BeMo Tunneling (also Austrian) will construct the main tunnel. It will be finished end 2024 and cost € 264m.
https://www.stbawm.bayern.de/service/medien/pressemitteilungen/2019/69/index.html

The view from the southern tunnel exit (here slightly above) is quite spectacular

IMG_20190920_170956hc by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

This is what you will see from the road after the tunnel

IMG_20190920_165645hc by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

and a bit later

IMG_20190920_164829hc by Wolfgang, auf Flickr

At the end of the bypass there will be a roundabout and 2 bridges over the river Loisach built by Porr (also Austrian). Works here have been started end of last year. The right (western) bridge is almost ready. Both will be finished end 2020
https://www.stbawm.bayern.de/service/medien/pressemitteilungen/2019/63/index.html
(edit: following this link go to the bottom and click on "Weitere Informationen". There are more pictures)

DSCF5498c by Wolfgang, auf Flickr


----------



## Rohne

MichiH said:


> ^^ However, the German state does currently not lend money. It's called "schwarze Null" ("black zero") and means that the federal budget is set up to not spending more money than the predicted income is. That's usually good but some people say that it's stupid under the negative interest rate circumstances.


does not lend 'additional' money. But it's still lending money by selling new bonds to replace older bonds which have reached their due date.
In fact, those people who say it was stupid not to lend additional money, don't have any idea about economics. Even Keynes (whom they most oftenly borrow their theories from) knew and said, that in good times (which we currently have) the state should reduce it's debts. And the German state still has very high debts, so it's advisable to reduce debts by an even higher grade.
Only problem is, this behaviour might be useless in the long term, as EU more and more tends to socialize the debts of its member states.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B50 Hochmoselbrücke*

21 November 2019 will be the date for the official inauguration of the Hochmoselbrücke (High Mosel Bridge) of B50 east of Wittlich. 

>> https://lbm.rlp.de/de/aktuelles/det...ropas-groesste-brueckenbaustelle-bald-fertig/

Webcam shot:


----------



## mgk920

That bridge soooo reminds me of the US 19 New River Gorge bridge in West Virginia, USA.

kay:

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The only thing those have in common is that they both span a valley :hm:


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> 21 November 2019 will be the date for the official inauguration of the Hochmoselbrücke (High Mosel Bridge) of B50 east of Wittlich.
> 
> >> https://lbm.rlp.de/de/aktuelles/det...ropas-groesste-brueckenbaustelle-bald-fertig/
> 
> Webcam shot:


That deserves an A number...


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> The only thing those have in common is that they both span a valley :hm:


True, they are very different designs, but yes, they span significant deep valleys at their topmost levels.

Mike


----------



## rudiwien

^^

To me, they look like nothing in common at all.. Totally different design, also very different valley - the US one seems way steeper, and at all to talk about the vegetation.. 

The US one looks also way more like a classical railway bridge (and is IMHO prettier  )


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The southbound carriageway should be opened in August and the northbound carriageway in late September. Source.


The A72 section is now announced to be opened northbound on 15 October. Source. There is no info why it is delayed (German transparency!) but media is reporting that there is a delay of two weeks - they don't write that it's "on schedule" :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

It is hard to remember what bridge looks like from underneath, when you are driving on the top


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A7*

An 8 kilometer six lane widening of A7 between Hamburg and Hannover was officially inaugurated today.

Location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.8228&mlon=9.6839#map=13/52.8228/9.6839

The new six lane segment is located between Bad Fallingbostel and Dreieck Walsrode (A27). It is part of a 32 kilometer widening of A7 from Soltau to Walsrode, this was the first of three segments to be completed.

Procedures are starting for the remainder of A7:
* Soltau-Ost - Soltau-Süd (14.7 km), plan approval starts in 2021
* Soltau-Süd - Bad Fallingbostel (9.5 km), plan approval starts in 2020


----------



## MichiH

Niemiec w Polsce said:


> 33km of the A94 between Pastetten and Heldenstein were yesterday inaugerated and were opened to public traffic this morning. It was opened one month ahead of schedule which does not compensate the decades of planning and fights between opponents which would have preferred to upgrade the existing B12 and the government which wanted keep the new routing based on plannings from the 70s’. This episode goes back till 1989.
> 
> https://www.google.de/maps/place/A9...2!3m1!1s0x4775fa17d90320cf:0x3eb103b2a12b0dbd


The new A94 in 1:46


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A540 Grevenbroich*

A540 is a 7 kilometer Autobahn around Grevenbroich in Northrhine-Westphalia. It links A46 to B59. 

The Autobahn opened to traffic in 1978. It was partially demolished between 1991 and 1998 for surface mining operations (similar to what happens to A61 today). 

A540 has been rehabilitated between 2017 and 2019 at a cost of € 16 million. They have renovated the carriageways down to the sand. This project is officially completed today.

However it turns out that A540 won't exist for much longer, they plan to downgrade it to B59 in January 2020.

Article: https://rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/gr...iten-endlich-wieder-frei-gegeben_aid-46490239


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> However it turns out that A540 won't exist for much longer, they plan to downgrade it to B59 in January 2020.


But I guess nothing will change in practice, right?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The article speaks of a new commercial area that will connect to A540, for which the Autobahn status would need to be removed. 

Another fun fact: A540 had no reported congestion between 2012 and 2017, the only Autobahn in NRW to do so.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The A72 section is now announced to be opened northbound on 15 October. Source. There is no info why it is delayed (German transparency!) but media is reporting that there is a delay of two weeks - they don't write that it's "on schedule" :lol:


October 16 now.




MichiH said:


> *B75:* AS Hamburg-Georgswerder – AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-South (A26) 4.8km (October 2016 to 7th October 2019) [rededication of A252/A253: 6.0km] – project – map


It was inaugurated on October 6 and it was planned to be opened for traffic on October 7 at 5 AM. However, it was already opened on October 6 at 3:30PM.




MichiH said:


> *B10:* west of AS Neu-Ulm-Finningen – east of AS Nersingen (A7) 5.5km (May 2018 to Early 2023) [2nd c/w] – project – map


It should be opened in late 2022. Source.


----------



## Rohne

MichiH said:


> You really believe that there is one wording standard for Germany? :lol:
> 
> I thought the same but following all the statements over more than one decade now...
> 
> Some states explain their steps for road construction:
> 
> NRW has 5 steps:
> 1. Bedarfspläne (demand plan)
> 2. Linienfindung (including "Vorplanung", it's variant study, EIA etc.)
> 3. Entwurfsplanung (it's the detailed planning)
> 4. Planfeststellungsverfahren (plan approval procedure)
> 5. Ausführungsplanung / Bau (design planning and construction)
> 
> Lower Saxony calls it:
> 1. Bedarfsplanung
> 2. Vorplanung
> 3. Entwurfsplanung
> 4. Genehmigungsplanung (Planfeststellungsverfahren)
> 5. Ausführungsplanung, Vergabe und Bau (design planning, tender and construction)
> 
> Hesse calls the steps:
> 2. Voruntersuchung (preliminary investigation)
> 3. Vorentwurf
> 4. Baurechtsverfahren
> 5. Ausführungsplanung und Straßenbau



Different names for basically the same procedures. But you're wrong with Hesse or misunderstood what they wrote in their document. Also there everything starts with demand plans. What you called step 2, is a longer process which contains three of your lists' terms as substeps, in this order: 1. _Voruntersuchung_ (aka _Grundlagenermittlung_), 2. _Vorplanung_ (aka _Linienfindung, Linienbestimmung_), and 3. _Vorentwurfsplanung_ to create the so-called _Vorentwurf_ which itself has to be approved by state's or federal traffic department (so-called _Sichtvermerk_).
On the other hand _Baurechtsverfahren_ is just a generic term which includes both steps 3 (_Entwurfsplanung_) and 4 (_Planfeststellungsverfahren_). During Entwurfsplanung, the documents for the Planfeststellungsverfahren are created, this is basically the Vorentwurf with some more details and additional documents like "landschaftspflegerischer Begleitplan" added. Planfeststellungsverfahren (plan approval procedure) itself basically is less planning but rather waiting, because this is when the documents from step 3 are presented to the public and objections are negotiated. So basically this step is not containing any planning activity, except if some objections have been seen so valid that the plans are edited due to these objections. Quite often (at least in Bavaria) authorities already start with step 5 planning while still in step 4.
And the names for these steps are the same in Hesse as everywhere else. The documents you used are just trying to give the public a better impression what work needs to be done when, but not caring too much about the official names.


----------



## MichiH

There will be a open day for the B50 Hochmoselbrücke on November 16 from 10AM to 4PM

http://hochmoseluebergang.rlp.de/index.php?id=253

The 20km long expressway will be opened on November 21 1PM.


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## snowdog

Timelapse I made from my drive over the A3 in Jul 2019:














Much more relaxed experience without those idiotic low speed limits that most of the world is plagued with.

A3 Rastanlage Medenbach Ost to A3 Autobahnparkplatz Königsforst Ri. Königsforst

D 141 km
T 54 min
V avg= 156,7kmh


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## ChrisZwolle

Your thumbnail shows 128 km/h GPS at a 100 km/h speed limit 

I drove A3 in June from the Netherlands to Frankfurt, I found it annoying how often the speed limit is reduced to 100 km/h or less for construction, _Brückenschäden_ or other reasons. The speed limit changes every couple of minutes.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B15n:* AS Ergoldsbach – AS Essenbach (A92) 9.0km (August 2013 to Late 2019) – project – map


Reported to be opened on November 19. Source.

It's just a side note. The article itself is about trespassing of the new road.


----------



## da_scotty

snowdog said:


> Timelapse I made from my drive over the A3 in Jul 2019:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Much more relaxed experience without those idiotic low speed limits that most of the world is plagued with.
> 
> A3 Rastanlage Medenbach Ost to A3 Autobahnparkplatz Königsforst Ri. Königsforst
> 
> D 141 km
> T 54 min
> V avg= 156,7kmh


You can clearly see that you are Dutch. Nür Links (NL) - fahren. 
Very agressive driving style, will catch up with you one day.


----------



## kato2k8

ChrisZwolle said:


> Your thumbnail shows 128 km/h GPS at a 100 km/h speed limit


That's harmless and he stays at 25-30 km/h above the limit for most of speed limited sections shown, there's only three or four instances where he's not doing that (one of them because he spots a car parked to the right that might have been a speed trap, one time due to traffic).

At one point he's overtaking people in a 80 km/h limited construction site on the 2m-wide left lane at 121 km/h.

At 9:00 he's passing a 130 km/h speed limit sign at 191 km/h, at 12:11 he's passing a 100 km/h sign at 162 km/h.


----------



## geogregor

kato2k8 said:


> At one point he's overtaking people in a 80 km/h limited construction site on the 2m-wide left lane at 121 km/h.
> 
> At 9:00 he's passing a 130 km/h speed limit sign at 191 km/h, at 12:11 he's passing a 100 km/h sign at 162 km/h.


In other words yet another cowboy who thinks Germany is perfect place to show off...hno:


----------



## snowdog

No, what nonsense, just showing speed limits are idiotic on motorways. I've been driving like this for over 10 years now. This is actually driving relaxed, in my first 2 years around 2009 I drove much differently, as in much more excessively (as in 230+km/h in NL was weekly business, luckily never got caught).

Fines for up to 30 km/h to fast in Germany are very affordable, I drive the same in NL though, always just under WAHV/Mulder (Vmax + 40 on motorway) or Vmax + 50 if in hurry. Obviously Tomtom, Waze and Flitsmeister are always running to warn against thieves by the road with radar/lasers.

And yeah I don't brake for speed limits unless a speed trap is present, otherwise release throttle: waste of fuel, brakes and tyres to brake unnecessarily. The best drive is a drive where you barely ever touch your brake .

This way you can get from a to B much faster and much more relaxed, this was a stretch that allowed for nice travel, little people that blocked progress, overall I drove from Split Croatia to NL that day and the day before...


----------



## da_scotty

So because fines are OK. 
You think speed limits are stupid
You have been doing this for ten years.
----------------------------------------
This is proper driving?

Your logic is ****** up.

I wonder if you had a EMG in NL.
I bet that one day you will have a bad accident or lose your license, rightly so.


----------



## snowdog

Keep thinking that, I've done 60k km/yr on average and in a lot of countries (mainly NL, DE and PL though) and the only ''close calls'' were back when I was 18-21. People have been saying nonsense like that for over a decade and nothing ever happened.

And yes, speed limits are idiotic imho on motorways, how dare people limit people's freedom of movement/mobility. Stop imposing your own fears or limitations on others. It's all a matter of looking forward further and planning your drive as much as possible.
This was done with a slow car (1.0 3 cilinder)... With a faster car it's much easier to keep higher averages (Used to have a 2.5l v6, but these days meh, this does ok ish).


The EMG is a farce, luckily I never got caught but I've known people who have (I fight peoples fines/tickets as a hobby for friends relatives etc...), all they do is 3 days of rubbish ''speed is bad mkay''. Basically play along and forget the propaganda asap. Absolute trash that in practice a report from a copper is enough to charge you half a month salary without the conviction via a judge...



> That's harmless and he stays at 25-30 km/h above the limit for most of speed limited sections shown,


Exactly .


> At 9:00 he's passing a 130 km/h speed limit sign at 191 km/h, at 12:11 he's passing a 100 km/h sign at 162 km/h.


If I notice a speed limit I will usually release throttle to that + 30 or 40 indeed.

In Poland I used to drive over much crappier roads at higher speeds, which is why 80 km/h or 100 or whatever limit on a nice autobahn with no slow traffic, no crosswalks, no junctions, etc is absolutely fine.


----------



## MacOlej

I know a few people who drive similarly to you.
However, none of them is so proud of it (or even foolish I'd say) to post evidence of their violations on YT and then defend it when confronted on a forum.
I just hope you will never cause an accident.

To others non-Poles reading this (from what snowdog wrote I assume he comes from Poland):
There is a big group of Polish drivers who say they drive "fast but safely". Generally Polish drivers assess their skills much higher then they really are.
Now mix it with a centuries-long history of questioning authorities and law and you end up with accidents just like two weeks ago in Warsaw where a guy in a tuned BMW killed a pedestrian on a zebra crossing. He was doing 130 km/h on a 2+2 city street with a posted limit of 50 km/h.


----------



## da_scotty

Oh but that's only because there was a stupid speed limit. 2+2 should always be 100 at least.. sigh.

He is Dutch btw, not proud of my fellow dutchie.


----------



## MacOlej

"In Poland I used to drive over much crappier roads at higher speeds".
Sounds like a Pole living currently in the Netherlands.


----------



## MichiH

hno: hno: hno:

I can't believe that I really watched that video.... It's just a boring normal drive like there are thousands every day on German Autobahns.
There is nothing which must be commented. Sure, it can be expensive to exceed the speed limit, but that's only his problem. I have not seen any safety issue on the video.

OTOH, virtually everything starting from "showing speed limits are idiotic on motorways" is pure nonsense...


----------



## Wilhem275

In general, overconfidence is a big safety issue, probably more than speed itself.
I'm not much concerned about what is seen in the video, but this constant boasting about speeding and against rules is a strong hint of overconfidence (and overcompensation...).

I'm not exactly a slow driver, but I never get why some people need a public validation for their speeding. What kind of ability is that? A brick on the pedal can do the same job.

My grandpa, who was a petrolhead before me, taught me to never fully trust the car. Always keep some margin. I add to that: never exploit your personal issues through driving...


----------



## kato2k8

snowdog said:


> Obviously Tomtom, Waze and Flitsmeister are always running to warn against thieves by the road with radar/lasers.


Just as a warning, courts in Germany have ruled such services illegal, and TomTom itself warns about this fact. §23 StVO. Most people are not aware of this.

The same goes for both the Netherlands and Poland as well as most other EU countries btw. In Luxembourg and Belgium in particular it is punishable with up to 6 months jail to use a device warning about non-stationary speed controls, in the Czech Republic fines for it run up to €7,000.


----------



## Penn's Woods

*[D] Germany | road infrastructure • Deutsche Autobahnen*



kato2k8 said:


> Just as a warning, courts in Germany have ruled such services illegal, and TomTom itself warns about this fact. §23 StVO. Most people are not aware of this.
> 
> 
> 
> The same goes for both the Netherlands and Poland as well as most other EU countries btw. In Luxembourg and Belgium in particular it is punishable with up to 6 months jail to use a device warning about non-stationary speed controls, in the Czech Republic fines for it run up to €7,000.




Ooh! So maybe we can get this idiot behind bars and off the roads for a few months? Can we arrange for that to happen just before my next trip to Europe?


----------



## flapane

snowdog said:


> Keep thinking that, I've done 60k km/yr on average and in a lot of countries (mainly NL, DE and PL though) and the only ''close calls'' were back when I was 18-21. People have been saying nonsense like that for over a decade and nothing ever happened.
> 
> And yes, speed limits are idiotic imho on motorways, how dare people limit people's freedom of movement/mobility. Stop imposing your own fears or limitations on others. It's all a matter of looking forward further and planning your drive as much as possible.
> This was done with a slow car (1.0 3 cilinder)... With a faster car it's much easier to keep higher averages (Used to have a 2.5l v6, but these days meh, this does ok ish)..


Oh, my hero, you're so brave and confident, when I'll be an adult I wanna be like you, especially the 2.5l thing...
Jeez


----------



## verreme

snowdog said:


> Timelapse I made from my drive over the A3 in Jul 2019:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Much more relaxed experience without those idiotic low speed limits that most of the world is plagued with.
> 
> A3 Rastanlage Medenbach Ost to A3 Autobahnparkplatz Königsforst Ri. Königsforst
> 
> D 141 km
> T 54 min
> V avg= 156,7kmh


I think there are too many speed limits on that Autobahn stretch but your driving is just a pointless demonstration of tiny ***** size. How much time does driving 120 km/h on a 2-meter wide lane saves you? On the road you can never rely on other drivers. If you're passing a car with such a big speed differential on such a narrow lane, if the other driver makes a small mistake you're dead.


----------



## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> More streets under the elevated road have been closed today.


The two mentioned are the streets closed on friday, the article is a bit confusing on that.



MichiH said:


> Public transport can pass the road at a location because "the bridge is permanently under observation by engineers there"


This exemption only lasts until wednesday according to the press conference on friday. Until then trams are allowed to individually pass through after a quick visual inspection by an engineer onsite has confirmed that the bridge won't collapse in the next 60 seconds.



MichiH said:


> It was reported that it might take *15 years* till the road might be reopened if a normal plan approval procedure is required.


The question vurrently isn't really how long it takes to rebuilt and reopen it, the question is how long it takes to tear it down.


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is it really necessary for a complete plan approval procedure to rebuild something that is already existing? There should be some kind of emergency law to expedite reconstruction of failed infrastructure.


It's a bit more complex. At first the bridges have to be torn down completely. Even the planning procedure for tearing down can take several years. 
And, eve more important: if the existing bridge will be torn down, it is not obvious at all, that it shall be rebuilt at the very same form. We're not in the 1950's any more.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> it is not obvious at all, that it shall be rebuilt at the very same form. We're not in the 1950's any more.


Exactly. They don't wanna just rebuild it as-iswas and still don't know how they wanna rebuilt it.

Project site: https://www.ludwigshafen-diskutiert.de/dialoge/hochstrasse-sued-0

Presentation from April 2019 (Hochbrücke Süd starts at page 18)

page 25:


> Wie geht es nun weiter?
> - Abriss der Hochstraße Nord und Bau der Stadtstraße vor der Sanierung der Hochstraße Süd
> - Für die Hochstraße Süd werden neue Lösungsvarianten erarbeitet
> - Weiterhin häufige und intensive Brückenkontrollen
> - Sobald neue Varianten vorliegen werden diese vorgestellt und eine Bürgerbeteiligung dazu angeboten
> 
> What happens now?
> - Demolition of the northern elevated bridge and reconstruction as a city street prior to the renovation of the elevated bridge south
> - New solutions are being developed for the South
> - Continue frequent and intensive bridge checks
> - As soon as new variants are present these are presented and there will be public hearings


I think they should tear the Süd down and don't rebuild it. Through traffic doesn't belong to inner cities anymore. They should finally build the southern bypass at Altrip: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/49.4378/8.4692
It was planned to continue B38 from Rheingönnheimer Kreuz (B9/B44) to B36 in Mannheim to form a southern bypass of Ludwigshafen and Mannheim. The plan approval order was passed in 1965 but.... see German wikipedia


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## ChrisZwolle

Well, they wanted to keep the Hochstraße Süd as the main artery through the city with the planned demolition of the Hochstraße Nord. There are only two bridges across the Rhine between Ludwigshafen and Mannheim, so at least one of them would carry commuter traffic to and from Mannheim from the western suburbs. The A6 and A61 bridges are too far out.

The elevated highways were a reason why Ludwigshafen/Mannheim are among the least congested cities in Germany: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/ranking/?country=DE


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## kato2k8

MichiH said:


> Through traffic doesn't belong to inner cities anymore.


Most of that traffic is people who pass through Ludwigshafen to get to inner Mannheim - just commuters already cause about 73,000 movements per day including public transport between Mannheim and districts west of the Rhine.

Yes, it would make sense to have these use a bypass/ring to get around the inner city and approach it from the shortest way in, but the traffic jams from the eastern approaches into Mannheim are even worse than that bit of daily jam on Hochstraße Süd.


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## miumiuwonwon

Update of the widening and reconstruction of BAB 10 south of Berlin. Last update here.

Coming from BAB 15, in direction to BAB 9.


























































































By me.


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A100:* AD Neukölln – AS Am Treptower Park 3.2km (May 2013 to 2022) – project – map


After a few months of construction, it was reported that the A100 section might be opened in 2021. There was no more update on the estimated opening date but we have the first one now: 2023. Mostly due to more polluted ground (costs for removal: 25 million €) and a re-tender procedure for a bridge construction contract. Every meter(!) of the Autobahn costs 187.500 € on average. Source.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A143 Halle an der Saale*

An official groundbreaking ceremony for the A143 extension near Halle is scheduled for next Tuesday, December 3.

Mitteldeutsche Zeitung: Spatenstich für A143


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## Falusi

Can somebody update what is the status of A94 east of Burghausen IC?

- There is a section of half profile to the border, is it planned to be upgraded?
- What's the plan for the next lot?
- There is a section at Malching which doedn't seems to be too old.
- At Schambach / Tutting they are building the motorway at the moment, to be ready in 2022?
- What is the plan for Tuttin - A3 section?

Thanks!


----------



## MichiH

Falusi said:


> Can somebody update what is the status of A94 east of Burghausen IC?


Sure!



Falusi said:


> - There is a section of half profile to the border, is it planned to be upgraded?


Yes, it is planned to build the 2nd carriageway on the 14km section from Burghausen to Simbach. The section has the lowest priority out of all A94 sections.



Falusi said:


> - What's the plan for the next lot?


The 15km gap is split into 2 lots. It's planned to build it "through" the town. With a tunnel but residents wants a longer tunnel. I bet it will take ages to build it...



Falusi said:


> - There is a section at Malching which doedn't seems to be too old.


The first carriageway was opened on 23rd October 2009. The second carriageway on 28th November 2013.



Falusi said:


> - At Schambach / Tutting they are building the motorway at the moment, to be ready in 2022?


To be opened in 2022.



Falusi said:


> - What is the plan for Tuttin - A3 section?


The plan approval order from July 2018 is challenged. 4 out of 6 actions have been solved out of court by last June. It is planned to start construction works in 2021.



Falusi said:


> Thanks!


You're welcome!

https://www.abdsb.bayern.de/imperia...b/projekte/planung/a94_marktl_pocking_uek.pdf


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## ChrisZwolle

*A143 Halle an der Saale*

The groundbreaking ceremony for the completion of A143 at Halle an der Saale was held today. According to the sign in the background, it will be completed in late 2025 (6 years).










MDR reports: https://www.mdr.de/sachsen-anhalt/h...vierzig-baustart-westumfahrung-halle-100.html


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## MichiH

*Hochmoselbrücke*



ChrisZwolle said:


> The _Hochmoselbrücke_ (High Mosel Bridge) of B50 east of Wittlich has been inaugurated today, it should've opened to traffic around 6 p.m. according to earlier reports.


Short (low quality) video from opening day:





Long video report from the new road and around:





From the open day (aerial):





More pics:
http://www.eautobahn.de/html/b50n_feierliche_verkehrsfreiga.html
http://www.eautobahn.de/html/b50n_vor_der_freigabe.html


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B33:* Waldsiedlung – AS Reichenau 0.9km (June 2014 to 2019?) – project – map


No info. The project site still indicates fully 2x2 by late 2019. It seems that a micro segment of the tiny section is in service but the remaining part.... I guess it will be opened with the neighboring section to the west in late 2022.



MichiH said:


> *B47:* AS Worms-West – AS Worms-Horchheimer Straße 1.1km (August 2016 to Late 2019) – project – map


Early 2020. Source.



MichiH said:


> *B318:* AS Holzkirchen (A8) – AS Holzkirchen 1.5km (June 2017 to Late 2019) – project – map


The official opening ceremony took place on December 9 (Source) but both carriageways were already opened in early November and it's 2x2 from Mid November according to a forumer.



MichiH said:


> *B30:* AS Ravensburg-South – AS Karrer 3.4km (July 2013 to 2nd December 2019) – project – map


Opened as scheduled. Source.



MichiH said:


> *B33:* east of AS Allensbach-West – AS Allensbach-Center 2.4km (November 2015 to 6th December 2019) – project – map


I guess it was opened as scheduled. Minimum the opening ceremony took place as announced. Source.

That's all for new motorways and expressways in 2019!


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## HarlingenHardest

MichiH said:


> No info. The project site still indicates fully 2x2 by late 2019. It seems that a micro segment of the tiny section is in service but the remaining part.... I guess it will be opened with the neighboring section to the west in late 2022.


That's right. You can see it drive-by in this video from 08:01 on. 






Starting in Allensbach-West heading east until AS Reichenau.


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## da_scotty

On wednesday I will drive from Rotterdam to Darmstadt (10am departure), google maps suggest two routes.

Rechtsrheinisch via the Arnhem/Ruhr/A3 or Linksrheinisch via Venlo/A61/Mainz. 

What do you lot suggest with traffic/roadworks and driving pleasure.

We are both not very fast drivers, mostly around 130 and will split the journey in two to have a driver switch/coffee halfway.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp*

The replacement of the Neuenkamp Rhine River Bridge of A40 at Duisburg has officially commenced today.


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## MichiH

da_scotty said:


> On wednesday I will drive from Rotterdam to Darmstadt (10am departure), google maps suggest two routes.
> 
> Rechtsrheinisch via the Arnhem/Ruhr/A3 or Linksrheinisch via Venlo/A61/Mainz.
> 
> What do you lot suggest with traffic/roadworks and driving pleasure.
> 
> We are both not very fast drivers, mostly around 130 and will split the journey in two to have a driver switch/coffee halfway.


:dunno:

Google suggests right now:
- Arnhem - A3: 4:37h
- Eindhoven - A61/A48/A3: 4:50h
- Eindhoven - A61/A60: 4:53h

A61 is limited to 130 on long distances, I guess you'd feel better using A61. Congestions with remarkable delays are more frequently on A3. But since you'll not drive during rush hours...


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The replacement of the Neuenkamp Rhine River Bridge of A40 at Duisburg has officially commenced today.


The bridge from 1970 features 2x3 lanes and was designed for 30,000 vehicles/day. It's used by more than 100,000 vehicles now, thereof more than 10,000 trucks. It's currently limited to 2x2 lanes because of the demages. Trucks are automatically weight in front of the bridge. If the axle load is higher than 11.5 tons or the total vehicle load is higher than 40 tons, the trucks are stopped and not allowed to cross the bridge. When the weighing machines were introduce, between 60 and 80 trucks per day were stopped. It's only between 25 and 30 now.

The new bridge will be 802m long and 71m high, and will feature 2x4 lanes. A40 is widened to 2x4 lanes on 4.4km from the exit west of the bridge to the exit east of the bridge. The new bridge costs 250 million €. The total project (construction) costs are 365.5 million €.

The bridge for the first carriageway should be opened in 2023. Then, 2x3 lanes will be opened again. The second bridge should be completed by 2026.


Press releases:
https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/DE/P...9/098-scheuer-a40-rheinbruecke-neuenkamp.html
https://www.strassen.nrw.de/de/pres...er-rheinbruecke-neuenkamp-steht-im-fokus.html
https://www.land.nrw/de/pressemitte...ahr-nach-baurecht-startet-der-ausbau-fuer-den
https://www.deges.de/aktuelles/neuigkeit/a-40-duisburg-feierlicher-spatenstich/

http://www.eautobahn.de/html/spatenstich_neuenkamp_.html more stupid pics showing politicians)


Pics from Straßen.NRW of cracks which have been fixed earlier this year (before / after):


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## MichiH

*B33 Allensbach - Konstanz*



MichiH said:


> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *B33:* Waldsiedlung – AS Reichenau 0.9km (June 2014 to 2019?) – project – map
> 
> 
> 
> No info. The project site still indicates fully 2x2 by late 2019. It seems that a micro segment of the tiny section is in service but the remaining part.... I guess it will be opened with the neighboring section to the west in late 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> MichiH said:
> 
> 
> 
> *B33:* east of AS Allensbach-West – AS Allensbach-Center 2.4km (November 2015 to 6th December 2019) – project – map
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess it was opened as scheduled. Minimum the opening ceremony took place as announced. Source.
Click to expand...

I forgot a little detail. Construction works for section C1 should have been started too. I've put C1+C2 together to one section:

*B33:* AS Allensbach-Center – AS Allensbach-East 2.0km (December 2019 to 2027) – project – map

Section D is not yet u/c:

_*B33:* AS Allensbach-East – Hegne 2.0km (2022 to 2027) – project – map_

Total lengths from section A to section F2: 10.8km. Construction period: September 2009 to 2027 (at the earliest). Sections A+B+F1 are in service, C1+E+F2 u/c, C2+D not yet u/c.


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## da_scotty

MichiH said:


> :dunno:
> 
> Google suggests right now:
> - Arnhem - A3: 4:37h
> - Eindhoven - A61/A48/A3: 4:50h
> - Eindhoven - A61/A60: 4:53h
> 
> A61 is limited to 130 on long distances, I guess you'd feel better using A61. Congestions with remarkable delays are more frequently on A3. But since you'll not drive during rush hours...


I know the A61 well, my girlfriend doesn't . How are the roads comparing with roadworks? As that would be the main cause for a "stau" during daytime driving. Driving in busy traffic (Ruhr or A3/Frankfurt) isn't a problem as we are used to the Dutch A13/A4/A20 which are way busier.


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## MichiH

^^ Check this out:

https://www.verkehr.nrw/
http://verkehr.rlp.de/?lang=10&menu1=20&menu2=&menu3=
https://mobil.hessen.de/baustelleninfo (hessen.de is currently down)

https://bast-bis.almoconsult.de/data/false/null/null/kartenansicht.html
https://www.baustellen-check.de/


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## ChrisZwolle

*A66 Riederwald Tunnel, Frankfurt*

Construction on the A66 missing link east of Frankfurt started in September 2009.

At that time, they said: _Das 1100 Meter lange Bauwerk soll die Lücke zwischen der Autobahn 66 aus Osthessen und der Frankfurter Ostumgehung (A 661) schließen. Der Bau soll 2017/18 fertig sein._

The tunnel was planned to be completed in 2017 or 2018 at that time. 

But things are running slightly behind schedule. The tunnel construction has again been pushed back, now to 'late 2021' and 'in case there are no further appeals and the tender procedure runs according to plan'. That is the construction start, not completion :nuts:

>> https://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-m...iten-fuer-riederwaldtunnel-2021-16541801.html

It was reported earlier that the project may not be completed until 2030, which is 13 years behind schedule. Since construction started in 2009, they built the A66/A661 interchange (Dreieck Erlenbruch), which was completed after 10 (!) years of construction in 2019, but won't enter service until the Riederwald Tunnel actually opens to traffic, perhaps in 2030, which means a construction duration of 21 years for this less than 2 kilometer long link. 

I believe this is the slowest project in Germany (from actual groundbreaking to completion).


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## MichiH

^^ The tunnel has a length of 1.1km but the section has a length of 2.2km. The estimated completion date is *2029* according to today's press release.

Predicated AADT: 110,000 vehicles/day on A66, 124,000-137,000 vehicles/day on A661. Both will feature 2x3 lanes - after completion. Total costs: 477 million €.

The plan approval supplement order which was passed today will be layed out next February. Afterwards, appeals can be submitted for 4 weeks. Another plan approval supplement procedure for the reconstruction of the Bergen-Enkheim interchange is not yet completed but I think that the tunnel construction can be started even when this is not yet finished.


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## mgk920

And perhaps by then, the missing part of A66 west of A661 will have been resurrected and programed for construction....

:nuts:

Mike


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## MichiH

^^ Nope!

--------------------------------

We've reported about the closed _Hochbrücke Süd_ in Ludwigshafen earlier this year. It might collapse, underpassing of the elevated bridge is forbidden.

The elevated bridge should be demolished now. Experts want to cut down 14 trees (20-25 years old) so that the demolishion can be done. However, the Green party fraction of the town councilor (Stadtratsfraktion) has protested. The court has decided today, that the complaint is not legal due to formal issues.

https://www.morgenweb.de/mannheimer...baumfaellungen-unzulaessig-_arid,1574385.html


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## ChrisZwolle

*A1 Leverkusen Rhine Bridge*

Straßen NRW has provided an overview of the construction progress on the replacement of the Leverkusen Rhine Bridge, after the first two years of construction: https://www.strassen.nrw.de/de/pres...-baufortschritt-nach-zwei-jahren-bauzeit.html

What they didn't tell, however, is that the project has already racked up a 2 year delay.

Construction began on 14 December 2017. Around that time, the timeline was a completion of the first bridge in late 2020 and the second bridge in late 2023. That is now late 2021 and late 2025 respectively.


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## Bender

I drive there very often. It's difficult to see the progress while driving but there are definitely piles for the future bridge on the river bank.
The ramp for the A1 to the A59 was torn down and has been rebuilt. It looks almost complete now (which means it'll open in 2023 probably). I wondered how they built in because I could see quick progress from one day to the next... maybe they "pushed" the whole structure.

Anyway can't wait to see that 2x6 lanes bridge. Hopefully before I die.


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## MichiH

*Fehmarnbelt crossing*



MichiH said:


> As promised, the "alliance against fixed belt crossing" has filed an action against the tunnel plan approval order.
> In addition, there are complaints by:
> - the municipality of Bad Schwartau which demand noise protection for the railway
> - the municipality of Fehmarn which demand noise protection for the railway and fear negative impact for residents, tourists and nature during construction works.
> - Nabu who claims that the relation of nature destruction is out of all proportion to almost nonexistend demand for the railway or road crossing. A boring tunnel would be better.
> 
> http://www.ln-online.de/Lokales/Ostholstein/Feste-Fehmarnbeltquerung-Nabu-klagt-gegen-den-Tunnel


Court hearing will be on September 23 and September 24: https://www.bverwg.de/suche?q=Fehmarnbeltquerung&db=t&dt=&lim=10&start=1#


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## Festin

MichiH said:


> Court hearing will be on September 23 and September 24: https://www.bverwg.de/suche?q=Fehmarnbeltquerung&db=t&dt=&lim=10&start=1#


Does this block the danish from starting on the project, or do they need to wait for this aswell?


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## MichiH

^^ They have (or want) to wait for "real" tunnel construction works. If memory serves, they've already started some preliminary works on Danish mainland but not on sea.


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## Corvinus

Example of a "yellow Autobahn": B469 as seen from a bridge in Obernburg am Main. At this stretch, there is a signposted 120 km/h limit, other parts further north are without a speed limit. 

In Germany, there is *no* separate road category for "yellow Autobahns". They are _Bundesstraße_ roads with yellow signage and "B"-prefixed numbers. 
Any extra-urban road that has a physical median separator, or more than one marked lane in each direction, does not have a general speed limit (apart from the recommended 130 km/h). As such, non-motorway roads with these features are typically (if not always) signposted as expressways (_Kraftfahrstraßen_) to prevent use by vehicles not capable of a speed of at least 60 km/h.

Yellow autobahns otherwise often have speed-limited sections which in dense areas can be as low as 70 km/h.


Looking north:











Looking south:


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## MichiH

*Actual 2019 openings*

New motorways (total: 66.7km, 155.5km including rededications; 2018: 45.3km; 2017: 21.5km; 2016: 2.0km; 2015: 48.8km):

_*A36:* rededication AD Vienenburg (A369) – AK Bernburg (A14) (2+2) 84.5km (1st January 2019) - / OSM / prop / GM
*A369:* rededication AD Vienenburg (A36) – Bad Harzburger Dreieck (B6) (2+2) 4.3km (1st January 2019) - / OSM / prop / GM_
*A33:* north of AS Halle – Halle-Künsebeck (2+2) 4.9km (December 2012 to 11th January 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A30:* AS Gohfeld – east of AS Gohfeld (2+2) 1.5km (September 2008 to Early June 2019) [2nd c/w] [discontinuation: 1.4km] project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A33:* AS Belm (B51) – south of AS Osnabrück-Schinkel (2+2) 2.2km (February 2015 to 12th June 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A30:* east of AS Gohfeld – AS Bad Oeynhausen-North (2+2) 3.8km (September 2008 to 2nd August 2019) [2nd c/w] project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A72:* AS Borna-North – AS Rötha (2+2) 8.5km (July 2013 to 2nd August 2019) [direction Chemnitz] project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A94:* AS Pastetten – AS Dorfen (2+2) 17.4km (April 2012 to 1st October 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A94:* AS Dorfen – AS Heldenstein (2+2) 14.9km (July 2013 to 1st October 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A72:* AS Borna-North – AS Rötha (2+2) 8.5km (July 2013 to 16th October 2019) [direction Leipzig] project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A33:* AS Borgholzhausen – north of AS Halle (2+2) 7.9km (December 2012 to 18th November 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*A46:* AS Bestwig – AS Olsberg (2+2) 5.6km (September 2009 to 18th November 2019) - / OSM / _prop_ / GM

Motorway widenings (total: ~62km; 2018: ~46km; 2017: ~48km; 2016: ~22km; 2015: ~62km):

*A6:* Tairnbach – west of AS Sinsheim-West (3+3) 4,9km (Spring 2017 to Mid March 2019) [PPP, 3+3 was available only temporarily] project/OSM/GM
*A6:* west of AS Heilbronn/Untereisesheim – AK Weinsberg (A81) (3+3) ~4km (Spring 2017 to Early April 2019) [PPP, 3+3 was available only temporarily] project/OSM/GM
*A7:* AS Neumünster-Nord – north of AS Neumünster-Mitte (3+3) 4,1km (November 2014 to 17th April 2019) [PPP] project/OSM/GM
*A45:* Münchholzhausen viaduct (3+3) 0.5km (October 2014 to 8th May 2019) [2+2 for the time being] project/OSM/GM
*A6:* east of AS Bad Rappenau – west of AS Heilbronn/Untereisesheim (3+3) 7.6km (Spring 2017 to May 2019) [PPP, 3+3 was available only temporarily] project/OSM/GM
*A8:* Nellingen – T+R Aichen (3+3) ~2km (March 2014 to Early August 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A8:* Widderstall – Nellingen (3+3) 6.4km (September 2015 to Mid August 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A6:* AS Schwabach-South – AS Roth (3+3) 1.9km (April 2016 to Mid August 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A45:* Dorlar viaduct (3+3) 0.5km (November 2013 bis September 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A7:* AS Bad Fallingbostel – AD Walsrode (A27) (3+3) 8.0km (August 2016 to Late September 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A3:* west of Rohrbuchbrücke – west of Haseltalbrücke (3+3) 1.0km (July 2015 to ~9th November 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A3:* east of Haseltalbrücke – west of AS Marktheidenfeld (3+3) 7.7km (August 2017 to Mid November 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A99:* AK München-North (A9) – AS Aschheim/Ismaning (4+4) 7.3km (September 2016 to 22. November 2019) project/OSM/GM
*A7:* Schraudenbach viaduct (3+3) 1.4km (July 2015 to 6th December 2019) [2+2 for the time being] project/OSM/GM
*A6:* AS Schwabach-West – AS Schwabach-South (3+3) 4.3km (April 2016 to Mid December 2019) project/OSM/GM

New expressways (total: 49.6km; 2018: 20.4km; 2017: 7.2km; 2016: 6.0km; 2015: 1.8km):

*B29:* east of Böbingen – west of Essingen (2+2) 6.9km (July 2015 to 28th April 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B51:* AS Belm-Icker – AS Belm (A33) (2+2) 1.5km (February 2015 to 12th June 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B51:* AS Belm-Vehrte – AS Belm-Icker (2+2) 2.0km (February 2015 to 7th August 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B75:* AS Hamburg-Georgswerder – AS Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg-South (A26) (2+2) 4.8km (October 2016 to 6th October 2019) [rededication of A252/A253: 6.0km] project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B318:* AS Holzkirchen (A8) – AS Holzkirchen (2+2) 1.5km (June 2017 to November 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B15n:* AS Ergoldsbach – AS Essenbach (2+2) 7.2km (August 2013 to 20th November 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B50:* AS Platten – east of AS Kommen (2+2) 19.9km (July 2009 to 21st November 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B30:* AS Ravensburg-South – AS Karrer (2+2) 3.4km (July 2013 to 2nd December 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM
*B33:* east of AS Allensbach-West – AS Allensbach-Center (2+2) 2.4km (November 2015 to 6th December 2019) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM

New B roads and B road bypasses (total: ~75km; 2018: ~63km; 2017: ~62km; 2016: ~24km; 2015: ~67km):

*B96* AS Bergen (B196) – AS Samtens-East (2+1) 7.1km (July 2016 to 18th February 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B463* AS Pforzheim-West (B10) – Pforzheim-Dietlinger Straße (L562) 0.9km (November 2015 to 12th April 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B313* Grafenberg bypass 1.7km (July 2016 to 27th April 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B19* Witzelroda bypass 2.3km (April 2018 to 8th July 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B403* Nordhorn-Klosterstraße – Nordhorn-Osttangente 6.7km (December 2014 to 10th July 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B327* AS Gödenroth-Ost – west of Gödenroth 1.5km (March 2016 to 12th July 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B611* Wittel – north of AS Vlotho-West (A2) 4.5km (July 2007 to 15th July 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B31* AS Überlingen-Abigknoten – east of AS Überlingen-East (2+1) 1.1km (Spring 2015 to 26th July 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B102* Schmerzke – AS Brandenburg (A2) (2+1) ~4km (January 2018 to Late July 2019?) -/OSM/GM
*B243* AS Bad Sachsa – south of Nüxei (2+1) 0.5km (July 2016 to Mid 2019?) project/OSM/GM
*B2* Eutzsch bypass 2.2km (March 2016 to 21st August 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B100* Eutzsch bypass 1.2km (March 2016 to 21st August 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B56* east of Soller – Froitzheim 2.7km (November 2015 to 30th August 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B279* Wegfurt bypass 1.5km (July 2017 to 20th September 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B59* Sinsteden bypass (2+1) 2.0km (May 2017 to 1st October 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B327* Braunshorn/Gödenroth – AS Gödenroth-East 1.5km (March 2016 to 18th October 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B96* Neubrandenburg bypass (B104-East – B96-South) 3.6km (July 2016 to 21st October 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B480* AS Nuttlar (A46) – Olsberg 2.8km (September 2009 to 18th November 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B269* AS Zeltingen-Rachtig – Lösnich  3km (July 2009 to 21st November 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B467* Untereschach – Obereschach ~0.7km (October 2016 to 2nd December 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B221* Wassenberg/Wildenrath – Wassenberg/Gerderath (L19) 2.7km (December 2015 to 9th December 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B221* Wassenberg/Gerderath (L19) – Wassenberg-Orsbeck (L117) 3.0km (Early 2017? to 9th December 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B79* Halberstadt bypass 5km (July 2017 to 13th December 2019) -/OSM/GM
*B243* south of Nüxei – AS Mackenrode (2+1) 4.1km (July 2016 to 19th December 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B252* AS Wetter-West (L3091) – AS Lahntal-Goßfelden (B62) 5km (July 2013 to 21st December 2019) project/OSM/GM
*B91* Theißen bypass 3.9km (February 2016 to 23rd December 2019) -/OSM/GM


2018 list: > click <.
2017 list: > click <.
2016 list: > click <.
2015 list: > click <.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

2019 was a pretty good year for Germany in terms of Autobahn openings, even without counting the rededication of A36/A369 it had the most new Autobahn mileage in the 2010s decade. 

The widening progress is still somewhat limited though, 62 kilometers on a 12,400 kilometer network means that only 0.5% of the network has been widened (1/200th), which is not a lot considering how much is still planned in the _Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2030_.


----------



## MichiH

Forcast of Autobahn network extension per year (only sections which are already u/c):

2020: 12.2km
2021: 25.5km
2022: 52.2km
2023: 3.2km
2024: 17.9km
2025: 12.4km
2026: 7.2km

The 2020 openings are at the end of the year (A14, A98 and A524) and I won't be surprised if there will be no Autobahn opening in 2020. 2022 might be better but since it's still 3 years to go.... :lol:

Construction of a A26 section should start in 2020 (to be completed by 2024+), maybe A14. I don't know about A49 (PPP).


----------



## Grotlaufen

MichiH said:


> ^^ They have (or want) to wait for "real" tunnel construction works. If memory serves, they've already started some preliminary works on Danish mainland but not on sea.



On the Danish side, the tunnel element factory and the toll/customs gate (plus doubel-tracked electrified railway from Copenhagen/Ringsted to Nykobing/F with the new Storstromsbridge) is under construction. What remains until the project gets off for real on both sides are the last 35 kms of electrification and double tracked railway plus reconstructing the motorway section between Rodbyhavn - Sakskobing with hard shoulders and new bridges (it is one of the oldest sections of motorway in Denmark which opened in 1963, some of the bridges were built during the German occupation in WW2).


----------



## HarlingenHardest

*A33 Osnabrück - B51/B65 Belm bypass*

On Saturday the 21st of december I made trip to Osnabrück and surroundings. I drove the A33 from interchange Osnabrück-Süd direction Diepholz (B51) and took some photo's of the short north extension (OS-Widukindland) & the bypass of Belm, constructed between 2013 and summer 2019, inaugurated December 2. 

You can find all pics here: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/krusefahrer/albums/72157712358538308 (A33)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/krusefahrer/albums/72157712412785852 (B51/B65)

Summary:

1.Directional signage Interchange Osnabrück-Süd 









2.Fork sign Osnabrück-Fledder (8). Next exit OS-Lüstringen (7)









3.Crossing Hase river near exit OS-Lüstringen









4.Old distance sign and new pavement 









5.Speed limit 80 km/h because lack of grip. North extension of A33 starts here









6.Announcing exit OS-Widukindland (6). On the left the Schinkelturm (television tower )









7.









8.After OS-Widukindland A33 ends, turns into B51/B65 









9.Near Osnabrück-Nord/Belm-Mitte









10.Speed limit 100 km/h









11.Near Belm-Ost. Crossing the Wanne Eickel - Hamburg railway 









12.End of the _Kraftfahrstraße_, going back from 2x2 to 1x2 until Ostercappeln


----------



## andy5

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new B50 across the Mosel Valley is already mappable in Google Maps.
> 
> It is the fastest and shortest route from Brussels and Liège to the Rhein-Neckar area, and competitive but not the fastest towards the Rhein-Main area.


(Sorry to go back a bit)

Interesting to see this has opened, and at certain times of day it will be preferable than past Bonn and Köln to or from Frankfurt, but for Heidelberg from Brussels itself, or from Calais, I'd still be going via the cheaper fuel in Luxembourg, and only 3 or 5 minutes longer.


----------



## @[email protected]

A43 is missing in the category motorway widenings


----------



## MichiH

@[email protected] said:


> A43 is missing in the category motorway widenings


Construction works on that sub-section were completed in November but remain 2x2 by summer 2020. It counts for my stats when the new standard, here 2x3 lanes, is in service. Likely summer 2020.

https://www.strassen.nrw.de/de/pres...reuz-recklinghausen-a2-wieder-dreispurig.html



> Die Fahrbahn der A43 bleibt nämlich bis Sommer 2020 erst einmal zweispurig.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A59 Duisburg*

The expansion and bridge replacement project of A59 in Duisburg has seen a dramatic cost escalation.

A new estimate puts the 6.2 kilometer widening project at € 1.1 billion, up from € 333 million in the previous estimate. 

This project is located mostly on bridges that have reached the end of their life, in particular the 1.8 kilometer long 'Berliner Brücke' across the Ruhr and Port of Duisburg. 

Still, a near four-fold increase in cost even before construction actually started is almost unprecedented. Until a few years ago, they thought it could be done for € 333 million, but they had to add almost € 800 million to that estimate, it's hard to believe that was just an oversight, it's also far beyond any reasonable cost bandwidth for construction estimates.

WAZ reports: https://www.waz.de/staedte/duisburg...spuren-ausgebaut-ohne-tunnel-id228085441.html


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## MichiH

^^ They've compared different variants and the 1.1 billion € variant - replacing the existing elevated Autobahn by a new elevated Autobahn - is the CHEAPEST variant. There were also two tunnel variants which were at 1.6 billion € and with a construction time of 12 (including major closures) instead of "just" 6.5 years.

http://www.strassen.nrw.de/de/press...hlussstelle-duisburg-marxloh-in-hochlage.html


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> up from € 333 million in the previous estimate.


I don't know what the news article reports about the date of the 333 million € estimation because the news article is behind a paywall.

The entire 8km widening from AK Duisburg (A40) to AS Duisburg-Fahrn was at 419 million € in 2012. That was the base for the BVWP 2016 and priorization.

The segment north of AS Marxloh is excluded from the current project and it was at 86 million €.

The difference is 333 million €. A calculation from 2012 - 8 years old and prior to start of planning procedures!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here's an article from 2016: https://www.waz.de/staedte/duisburg...puren-fuer-333-millionen-euro-id11775093.html

_Im Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2030 ist von Gesamtprojektkosten in Höhe von 333 Millionen Euro für gerade 6,3 Autobahnkilometer die Rede._

€ 1.1 billion must be one of the most expensive projects in Germany on a 'per kilometer' basis.


----------



## MichiH

175 million € / km

The new A100 in Berlin is just about 100 million € / km (German media called it "most expensive motorway in the world" which is BS).


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B303:* east of AS Schirnding-West – west of AS Schirnding-East 2.5km (July 2017 to Late 2020) [2nd c/w] project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


Bridges are (mostly?) done but tendering for the next sub contracts have been on hold due to debates with the auditing of accounts commitee about future awarding. There is a delay of one year. Planning for the 2nd section "is not continued". https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/676256-676256

The 2nd section is the 1.6km gap from "west of Schirnding-East" to the Czech border. I'm not aware that planning works have ever been started. It's further demand with planning rights in the federal demand plan (BVWP 2030).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The A7 widening between Nörten-Hardenberg and Seesen is delayed, not by 1 year as the media report, but by 2 years. It is now scheduled to be completed in late 2022. The original completion date was late 2020.

_Wie er sagte, soll die Fertigstellung des 29 Kilometer langen Abschnitts nun bis Ende 2022 erreicht sein. Geplant war ursprünglich, dass der Ausbau ein Jahr früher beendet sein soll._

https://www.hna.de/lokales/northeim...fledermaus-verzoegert-ausbau-a7-13439735.html

_Ende 2020 werden dann - rund 20 Jahre später als ursprünglich geplant - auf der A 7 zwischen Göttingen und Hannover durchgängig sechs Fahrstreifen zur Verfügung stehen._

https://www.haz.de/Nachrichten/Der-Norden/Uebersicht/Startschuss-fuer-weiteren-A-7-Ausbau

But I suppose another 2 years delay is not much on the original schedule that was already 20 years later than planned. 

This is a PPP by the way. It's a 29 kilometer widening project, I suppose 5 years of construction is still quicker than if they would've done it in 4 separate stages of 4-5 years each.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Hamburg*

NDR reports that the A7 widening in Hamburg has reached a next stage, there are now three lanes each way through the Schnelsen Tunnel. I assume this means that the widening of A7 north of A23 is now really completed. This was a PPP project, under construction since September 2014.

>> https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/Schnelsen-Tunnel-Letzte-Vollsperrung-beendet,asieben380.html

There is another tunnel under construction, the Stellingen Tunnel. And a third tunnel, the Altona Tunnel, is scheduled to start construction later this year, but it was recently reported that construction would require much more time than originally anticipated and may not be completed until 2028.


----------



## Wolfgang16

*B2/A95 Auerbergtunnel will be built*

The Ministery of Transport (Andreas Scheuer) has granted 108,2 million Euro for the Auerbergtunnel at the end of A95 between Eschenlohe and Oberau and some roads around. The total stretch is 3.8km long and has 4 lanes. It will probably be opened in 5 to 6 years and will close the gap between A95 and the other new tunnels.

Overview map:

https://www.regierung.oberbayern.bayern.de/mam/dokumente/bereich3/pfb/2019/u02-1-spt-104300-plf-uek_m100000.pdf

Next steps will be the aquisition of land and the tender process.

Source: https://www.merkur.de/lokales/garmisch-partenkirchen/eschenlohe-ort114531/eschenlohe-bayern-andreas-scheuer-dobrindt-auerbergtunnel-13448928.html


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Good.
But I think the single most important project in that area would be the Wanktunnel around Partenkirchen. I guess that stretch of B2 is much more trafficked than the correspondent B23 in Garmisch?


----------



## Penn's Woods

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Good.
> But I think the single most important project in that area would be the Wanktunnel around Partenkirchen. I guess that stretch of B2 is much more trafficked than the correspondent B23 in Garmisch?




Wanktunnel?



Ahem. Sorry.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Good.
> But I think the single most important project in that area would be the Wanktunnel around Partenkirchen. I guess that stretch of B2 is much more trafficked than the correspondent B23 in Garmisch?


AADT 2015:
B2 at future Auerberg tunnel b/n Eschenlohe and Oberau: 19,735 vehicles/day
B2 at future Wank tunnel Partenkirchen: 18,890 vehicles/day
B23 at future Kramer tunnel Garmisch: 16,306 vehicles/day


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> AADT 2015:
> B2 at future Auerberg tunnel b/n Eschenlohe and Oberau: 19,735 vehicles/day
> B2 at future Wank tunnel Partenkirchen: 18,890 vehicles/day
> B23 at future Kramer tunnel Garmisch: 16,306 vehicles/day


Yes, of course, because by Oberau the road from Garmisch and the one from Partenkirchen have already met, so the AADT is higher than each.
I meant between Kramer- and Wanktunnel, the latter is the most important.

Yes, Penn's. Wanktunnel. Those Germans :lol:


----------



## MichiH

^^ I just provided data for all tunnels but didn't valuate anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wank_(mountain)



> The Wank is a destination for hikers, day-trippers from Garmisch-Partenkirchen and paragliders.


 Hikers like Spinoza?


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ Never did anything there... the closest I got by hiking was in Austrian Rißtal, I guess.


----------



## panda80

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ Never did anything there... the closest I got by hiking was in Austrian Rißtal, I guess.


For hiking, Kramer is more interesting  Not so much people there, more technical, and higher. Views over Zugspitze are very nice from both of them, however.

Regarding tunnels, I think Kramer should be of higher priority (as it is also), because the section inside the town is longer, and there are more intersections which cause agglomeration. From my experience, B2 was always easier to drive , and you can avoid it by driving over Walchensee, if coming from A95. B23 has no real alternative for regional traffic.


----------



## Wolfgang16

g.spinoza said:


> I meant between Kramer- and Wanktunnel, the latter is the most important.


Kramertunnel was built first because there was hope to open it for the World Ski Championships 2011, but this was nonsense as we know now. The B23 in Garmisch goes right through the center of the village, while the actual B2 was already sort of a bypass of Partenkirchen when it was built around 1950, but people put their houses near it and now its in the town. I am not sure whether this plays a role. Of course the locals are very angry about the actual situation. They fear that the congestion will shift to Partenkirchen. In discussion is a nightly speed limit of 30km/h. Recently the surface and the traffic light system on B2 were renewed.

https://www.merkur.de/lokales/garmi...-partenkirchen-schnaubt-wuetend-13454309.html

The Wanktunnel was planned for the Olympic Games, but this has been stopped after Garmisch-Partenkirchen decided not to apply for the games. Now these plans are not complete and have to be reviewed. Due to the lack of engineers the authority has no capacity to do this. They say they do it, but there is doubt. They have to manage the Auerbergtunnel, the Kramertunnel, the tunnel in Starnberg, the bypass of Weilheim, the B23 bypass in Oberau and of course many smaller projects. Other villages see the tunnels and demand same.

Eschenlohe has got its bypass for the Olympic Games in 1936 and recently it was discovered that the 2 old tunnels there are in very bad shape and may have to be closed. So there was an urgent need to clarify how the connection between Eschenlohe and Oberau will look like in future. Therefore the planning of the Auerbergtunnel was started and finally led to an end. Now we have the situation that there is plenty of money but not enough resources to plan and finally spend the money. Therefore the Auerbergtunnel will be built now and not the Wanktunnel. Wanktunnel will take at least 10 years.

Btw: Groundbreaking ceremony for the Kramertunnel will take place at 6.Feb.2020 There is a detailed info sheet about the Kramertunnel in German but with many pictures at
https://www.stbawm.bayern.de/mam/st...n_buergerinformationsveranstaltung_10_jan.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Hamburg*

It turns out that the opening of the realigned _Wilhelmsburger Reichsstraße_ in Hamburg had significant consequences for the naming of motorways and interchanges in the area.

Kreuz Hamburg-Süd has been renamed: the southern part (A1/A255) is now Dreieck Norderelbe, while the northern part (A1/A252) is now the Hamburg-Elbinsel exit.

A252 and A253 have ceased to exist and became part of B75. A252 was a short spur between A255 and B75. A253 was a short Autobahn in the Harburg district in southern Hamburg. It did not connect to any other Autobahn. 

These changes took effect with the opening of the Wilhelmsburger Reichsstraße on 6 October 2019. 

Press release from 18 September 2019: https://www.hamburg.de/pressearchiv-fhh/12961012/2019-09-18-bwvi-wbr/


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Kreuz Hamburg-Süd has been renamed: the southern part (A1/A255) is now Dreieck Norderelbe, while the northern part (A1/A252) is now the Hamburg-Elbinsel exit.


The announced interchange names and the new(!) signs do not match though. It's a mess....


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *A98:* AD Hochrhein – AS Rheinfelden-Karsau 2.5km (March 2009 to Late 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


The section is to be opened in Mid 2021 now. The shell construction will be completed by February 2020 but while planning the details for the technical tunnel equipment, they realized that it's more difficult and more time-consuming to connect it to the existing technics of the neighboring section. Tunnel equipment installation won't start in February but in 2nd half of 2020 now. Road construction works should be continued in summer 2020.

https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/rpf/Seiten/pressemitteilung.aspx?rid=2194


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B50 Hochmoselbrücke*

'kay...


----------



## Daniel749

^^ Border checks have been reduced to zero for trucks (!) since 21:00. No more controls at border crossings for trucks:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240744633631682576


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## MichiH

The easternmost A94 section south of Passau can be built now! The court action was withdrawn because they found an agreement without any court hearing (which was scheduled to be today but was canceled last week due to corona). Construction works should begin in early 2021 and the section should be opened in 2025. Source

*A94:* north of AS Kirchham – AD Pocking (A3) 12.5km (Early 2021 to 2025) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP

The formatting is so terrible...... 🤮 I don't wanna change it again.... 😢


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A new bridge span for the Gevelsberg interchange of A1 is being installed today.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A bridge under replacement partially collapsed yesterday evening onto the Rheintalbahn near Auggen (between Freiburg and Basel), where a train crashed into it.


----------



## MichiH

^^ The bridge was planned to be removed tomorrow. When it fell down, the driver of the train was killed.


----------



## mgk920

One question that was brought up as I was checking into a discussion in another thread, what is the story on the B178, a gelb Autobahn by the Polish border in the Gorlitz-Zittau area in far eastern Germany, including its potential future?

Mike


----------



## rheintram

> Zum ersten Mal seit vielen Jahren hat der ADAC für das Oster-Wochenende keine Warnung vor langen Staus ausgegeben. "Freie Autobahnen an Ostern" überschrieb der Automobilklub seine Einschätzung zur Verkehrslage am kommenden langen Wochenende. Gleichzeitig verband ADAC-Präsident August Markl dies mit der dringenden Bitte, wegen der Corona-Krise auch wirklich zu Hause zu bleiben.


 Liveblog: Zusätzliche Hilfen für den Mittelstand?

The comedians of the German touring club don't expect traffic jams on German autobahns around the Easter holidays... who could have guessed?


----------



## TM_Germany

mgk920 said:


> One question that was brought up as I was checking into a discussion in another thread, what is the story on the B178, a gelb Autobahn by the Polish border in the Gorlitz-Zittau area in far eastern Germany, including its potential future?
> 
> Mike


B178 looks like a very typical "Ortsumgehung" (bypass) to relieve towns and villages from through traffic. It's not a Gelbe Autobahn btw, just a grade seperated expressway with a 2+1 configuration. There is a new section near Zittau and a longer one farther nort until past Löbau. Right now there is a middle bit still along the old alignment and not grade seperated but connecting the two segments is in the works. Tbh I'm quite confused as to why you are interested in this fairly typical road, though.


----------



## flierfy

TM_Germany said:


> B178 looks like a very typical "Ortsumgehung" (bypass) to relieve towns and villages from through traffic. It's not a Gelbe Autobahn btw, just a grade seperated expressway with a 2+1 configuration. There is a new section near *Zwickau* and a longer one farther nort until past Löbau. Right now there is a middle bit still along the old alignment and not grade seperated but connecting the two segments is in the works. Tbh I'm quite confused as to why you are interested in this fairly typical road, though.


Zittau rather than Zwickau


----------



## mgk920

TM_Germany said:


> B178 looks like a very typical "Ortsumgehung" (bypass) to relieve towns and villages from through traffic. It's not a Gelbe Autobahn btw, just a grade seperated expressway with a 2+1 configuration. There is a new section near Zittau and a longer one farther nort until past Löbau. Right now there is a middle bit still along the old alignment and not grade seperated but connecting the two segments is in the works. Tbh I'm quite confused as to why you are interested in this fairly typical road, though.


I have always been interested in such things like incomplete corridors, 'old' road histories and the like. 

Going over the aerial images of that area, it struck me as being a corridor that has aspirations of being much more than it is now, with that aspiration continuing into neighboring Poland.

Mike


----------



## TM_Germany

Well it does connect through that small slice of Poland into the Czech republic to the city of Liberec, so its peobably used quite a bit international traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The plan approval process to widen a segment of A44 east of Dortmund was started in 2015.






A44: Sechsstreifiger Ausbau vom Kreuz Dortmund-Unna bis Unna-Ost | Straßen.NRW


Zusätzlich soll das Autobahnkreuz Dortmund-Unna (A44 / A1) umgestaltet und dadurch leistungsfähiger gemacht werden.



www.strassen.nrw.de





The pavement of A44 in this area is in very poor condition. It would've been efficient if they could've combined the widening with a complete overhaul of the concrete pavement. However, the widening procedures apparently hasn't seen much development over the past few years and now they have started doing the A44 overhaul separately this year. So that means that there will be construction throughout 2020 and again in the near future when the widening actually starts.






A44: Anschlussstelle Unna-Ost ab 14. April gesperrt | Straßen.NRW


Am Montag (6.4.) beginnt mit vorbereitenden Arbeiten die umfangreiche A44-Fahrbahnsanierung zwischen der A44-Talbrücke Lüner Bach in Unna und dem Autobahnkreuz Dortmund/Unna. Dafür wird ab dem 14. April die A44-Anschlussstelle Unna-Ost komplett gesperrt.



www.strassen.nrw.de


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> and again in the *near future* when the widening actually starts.


Are you sure?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

One can hope!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A70 Thurnau - Neudrossenfeld*
> 
> A section of A70 between Thurnau and Neudrossenfeld is in serious problems, it was originally built as two-lane B505 in the 1950s and expanded to four lanes in the early 1990s to become A70.
> 
> However this portion was built on an unstable slope, movement occurred directly after opening the motorway, with significant mitigation between 1991 and 1994. It began to slide again in the early 2000s. It is in serious risk of sliding down the slope entirely, so they are now planning to move the entire motorway 120 meters to the north, on a more uphill location.
> 
> A draft approval was released in November 2018. They hope to start construction in 2020. It concerns a 4 km section of A70 immediately east of the (unrelated) Friesentalbrücke replacement in Thurnau.
> 
> They do have some kind of contingent plan in case the slope slides so much that the motorway becomes impassable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > News report: https://www.infranken.de/regional/k...nau-und-neudrossenfeld-verlegt;art312,3982248
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > draft plan: http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...schiebung_thurnau/u1_erlaeuterungsbericht.pdf
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The _Autobahndirektion Nordbayern_ reports that the construction of the A70 rerouting near Thurnau will commence this week. As reported earlier, they will move the entire motorway about 200 meters to the north, over a distance of 3 kilometers (these figures are slightly different from those reported in January 2019). 

There will be no major impact on traffic this year. They will move about 250,000 m³ of earth. The project is scheduled to be completed by late 2023 with a cost of € 50 million.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A render of the future Fehmarnsund Tunnel. This will link the island of Fehmarn with the German mainland. They hope to complete the tunnel in 2028.


----------



## mgk920

^^

What is the purpose of the bridge in the distance?

Mike


----------



## MichiH

mgk920 said:


> What is the purpose of the bridge in the distance?


It's the existing bridge. It will remain open for slow traffic and pedestrians. It's landmarked.









Fehmarn Sound Bridge - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## g.spinoza

Isn't that the current mixed train-road bridge?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes, it is. 700 million euro is a lot for a less than 2 km long rail-road tunnel. Will they be able to use the dry docks for the Fehmarnbelt tunnel, if they chose an immersed tunnel also for the Fehmarnsund?

The existing bridge will be reserved to pedestrians, bycicles but also agricultural vehicles (and those who cannot use a motorway in general, I suppose).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Construction has officially started on a 8.7 kilometer segment of A26 near Hamburg today. Called 'A26 west', it runs from Neu-Wulmstorf to the new A7 interchange. 

It is scheduled for completion in 2025. Which would be a considerably faster construction pace than the other segments of A26 built so far, the soil conditions in that area are difficult.






Nachrichten aus Hamburg


Aktuelle Informationen und regionale Nachrichten aus Hamburg von NDR 90,3, Hamburg Journal und weiteren NDR Programmen.




www.ndr.de


----------



## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> ....Germans think that we are the best. Maybe not in the world but minimum in Europe. It is difficult to accept better procedures from abroad....


Sounds like another country I know and love.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An appeal against the widening of A1 between Greven and Münster has been dismissed by the court. They say this was the final plan approval for the widening of A1 between Osnabrück and Münster to have gone through the appealing process. 









Grünes Licht zwischen Greven und Münster


Sechs Streifen Autobahn – das kann jetzt kommen. Das Bundesverwaltungsgericht in Leipzig hat eine Klage aus Nienberge abgewiesen.




www.muensterschezeitung.de





Hopefully they can quickly start on the A1 widening in this corridor. There are / were plans to widen this segment of A1 under a PPP concession. 

Three bridges are under the process of being replaced near Tecklenburg. They were designed to carry six lanes. The bridge across the Dortmund-Ems Canal was replaced earlier and prepared for six lanes. Another bridge near Greven across an Ems River floodplain has also recently been replaced. So that means that most larger bridges have already been replaced on this corridor.


----------



## MichiH

^^ There are still two ongoing plan approval procedures. The last one has been started last summer - the one just north of A2. I think that the whole A1 between Osnabrück (A30) and Dortmund (A2) could be finished by Mid 2030s if it will be constructed under PPP.

btw: The complaint against the plan approval order for 2x4 widening of A7 just north of River Elbe tunnel in Hamburg (Altona section) was withdrawn last week.






Nachrichten aus Hamburg


Aktuelle Informationen und regionale Nachrichten aus Hamburg von NDR 90,3, Hamburg Journal und weiteren NDR Programmen.




www.ndr.de


----------



## ChrisZwolle

BMVI - Bundesminister Andreas Scheuer zur StVO-Novelle (Stand: 15.05.2020)


Bundesminister Andreas Scheuer zur StVO-Novelle




www.bmvi.de





Apparently they realized that losing your license for a month for going 21/26 km/h over the speed limit is a bit too extreme, and they want to change that. 

Losing your license is a measure similar to an € 80 speeding fine, that's disproportional.


----------



## [atomic]

^^ they should couple fines to income, that would make it fair and equally painful to everyone. Sometimes it feels like politicians just roll the dice when it comes to some laws.


----------



## Eulanthe

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently they realized that losing your license for a month for going 21/26 km/h over the speed limit is a bit too extreme, and they want to change that.
> 
> Losing your license is a measure similar to an € 80 speeding fine, that's disproportional.


It really doesn't make any sense unless it's for doing 56km/h in a 30 zone. Losing your licence for doing 86km/h in a 60km/h limit on the motorway is totally disproportionate, especially if it's one of those typical situations where the signs are showing 60km/h for no real reason.

For the lower offences (up to 10km/h over), they really should introduce a more effective punishment, such as requiring the car to stand in place for an hour. I'm really not a fan of punishing drivers for such a small amount of speeding, especially as it can be done quite accidentally.


----------



## Corvinus

Eulanthe said:


> It really doesn't make any sense unless it's for doing 56km/h in a 30 zone. Losing your licence for doing 86km/h in a 60km/h limit on the motorway is totally disproportionate, especially if it's one of those typical situations where the signs are showing 60km/h for no real reason.


Exactly. It's even more disproportionate for the same excess on a 120 or 130 km/h motorway stretch. At these limits, no roadworks and workers are present. The reasons here are typically "Lärmschutz", facilitate weaving/merging or attempt a more even flow in dense areas. However, these limits may already be posted for reasons as simple as preventing Swiss-registered vehicles from street racing - as a stretch of southern A81 recently limited to 130 km/h demonstrates. 

At the very minimum, they could have differentiated between motorways and simple roads regarding the excess threshold for license suspension. Now it looks the minister is asking the Bundesländer to revert the new reduced thresholds. The old regulation lead to a suspension for first-time offenders above an excess of 30 km/h within town limits, and 40 km/h outside. 
The minister stated that his wish is only concerning this one aspect. All other new regulations would be left in place.


----------



## mgk920

[atomic] said:


> ^^ they should couple fines to income, that would make it fair and equally painful to everyone. Sometimes it feels like politicians just roll the dice when it comes to some laws.


That wouldn't work so well in many parts of the USA - corrupt local police agencies in small 'tollgate' speed trap towns would give complete passes to poorer people, especially locals, driving beat up old cars and pickup trucks and go after the far more profitable out of towners who might be driving much more expensive cars and RVs.

Mike


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## Corvinus

It sort of "worked" on the former GDR's transit motorways. Not only were fines for West Berliners and West Germans cashed in Westmarks (a welcome source of scarce hard currency), the traffic cops also had a certain range within which to assess the fine amount "depending on the offender's individual situation". 
Since a common GDR officer had no insight into a Westerner's income or assets, they typically judged by the vehicle driven. For the same offense, a Citroën 2CV driver could have gotten away at 30 marks while a Mercedes Benz driver would have been charged 100.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Mülheim Bridge across the Rhine in Cologne has been under renovation since last year. However they now found out that the condition is worse than expected and more work is needed, so it has already incurred a 2 year delay, with completion in 2025. The bridge operates only one lane per direction for six years. The renovation was originally budgeted at € 188 million, but will now be 'substantially higher'. It makes you wonder if it wasn't better to just replace the whole structure. Similar bridges can be constructed for around € 200 million in 2-3 years. The lack of detour possibilities for the Stadtbahn probably prevented that scenario, in addition with the already dire situation of other bridges in the city.









Köln: Sanierung der Mülheimer Brücke verzögert sich um zwei Jahre


Köln – Am Ende war die Mängelliste zu lang, die Zeit zu knapp, die frühen Planungen zu optimistisch, das Resultat nicht mehr überraschend: Das nächste städtebauliche Großprojekt verzögert sich um zwei weitere Jahre und wird erheblich teurer. Die ma...




www.ksta.de





The bridge is a steel suspension bridge, originally constructed in 1949-1951.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B47:* AS Worms-West – AS Worms-Horchheimer Straße 1.1km (August 2016 to April 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


It was opened last Saturday, May 23rd.



MichiH said:


> *B47:* AS Worms-Horchheimer Straße – AS Worms-South 1.2km (February 2018 to 2022) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


2024 now.

Source: B 47neu Südumgehung Worms – Teilabschnitt geöffnet, Vorbereitungen für 3. Bauabschnitt laufen

The press release says that construction of the last section will start this year but since the construction of a bridge was started two years ago, the actual construction start of the section was two years ago. That means, construction period of six or seven years. The delay of two years is justified by the complex design. That's why execution planning and tender took so long.

---------------------------

Always the same excuse. Do German authorities not know what they do? Every road project is _ambitious_ here...


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## ChrisZwolle

This one's puzzling. Most bridges were completed on this June 2019 satellite image, what would require another 5 years (!) of construction?


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## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> This one's puzzling. Most bridges were completed on this June 2019 satellite image, what would require another 5 years (!) of construction?


That looks like something that from there to 'complete and open' would be two seasons max here (Wisconsin, USA).

😮

Mike


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## MichiH

quite long for just 1200m....


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## Attus

A4 between AK Köln-Süd (A4×A555) and AK Köln-Gremberg (A4×A559) shall be widened fro 6 to 8 lanes. It's basically the Rhine bridge at Rodenkirchen, bwtween these two motorway-motorway intersections there is only one intersection (Köln-Poll) ant the bridge (MAP). Authority Straßen.NRW expects the works can begin in 2026. 
Engineers say, the bridge may not carry an 8 lane motorway so it must either be widened or a new bridge must be built, a new tunnel, too, is possible. A widening would be funny because the bridge has already been doubled in the early 90's, when the motorway was widened from 4 to 6 lanes. It's listed as a protected monument and some local groups, too, want to preserve it. 
The other Rhine bridge of the Cologne motorway ring, at Leverkusen, is currently being replaced, it's unclear at the moment, what will happen at Rodenkirchen.








Genaue Kosten noch unklar: Die Autobahn 4 in Köln wird achtspurig


Köln – Die Haushalte im Kölner Süden – links- wie rechtsrheinisch – werden in den kommenden Wochen Post vom Landesbetrieb Straßen NRW bekommen. In dem Infobrief werden die Bürger über den geplanten Ausbau der Autobahn A 4 zwischen den Kreuzen Süd u...




www.ksta.de


----------



## MichiH

^^ Well, planning procedures have just been started. The project site indicates that the construction might happen at the end of the decade ("Mit der Umsetzung des Projekts ist Ende dieses Jahrzehnts zu rechnen.")






A4plus - Ausbau im Kölner Süden | Straßen.NRW


Das Projekt ist Bestandteil des Bundesverkehrswegeplans 2030. Für den achtstreifigen Ausbau der A4 ist ein Vollausbau zwischen dem Autobahnkreuz Köln-Süd und dem Autobahnkreuz Köln-Gremberg vorgesehen.



www.strassen.nrw.de






An additional Rhine crossing is planned about 7km south of A4. The expected AADT for the new A553 is 63.700 vehicles/24h. It will feature 2x2 lanes.









Startseite - Rheinspange


Das Projekt Rheinspange bezeichnet eine neue Autobahnverbindung zwischen der rechtsrheinischen A59 und der linksrheinischen A555.




rheinspange.nrw.de


----------



## MichiH

btw: I've just realized that the ksta article summary (displayed in the preview on SSC) indicates a completion(!) of the widening by 2026 😂 The article reports that construction works could begin in 2026 - and as written before, the project site says "construction at the end of the decade".


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## ChrisZwolle

I was thinking about the Rodenkirchen Bridge. Is it the only suspension bridge on the entire Autobahn system?


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## MichiH

A3 Würzburg - Aschaffenburg (from east of A7 interchange Biebelried to B8 Aschaffenburg-West)






It was widened from 2x2 to 2x3 lanes over the last decades. The time-lapse video is commented in English. The "tunnel" section u/c starts at 1:50.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> But motorways like this aren’t really the perfect image of the German Autobahn for efficient high-speed traffic.


But that's the reality!


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> I drove A45 last Sunday from Dortmund to Giessen. The motorway has an extremely large amount of road construction, sometimes the next Baustelle is announced right when you leave one. The speed limit also changes constantly, there is hardly more than 2 or 3 minutes without a speed limit reduction to 100, 80 or 60 km/h. There used to be something like a 35 or 40 kilometer section from Dortmund to the south with 3 lanes, but most of the third lane is unavailable due to construction or damaged bridges.
> 
> The motorway hardly functions as intended, it’s already an annoying ride on Sunday, not to mention other days when there are a lot of trucks. The speed limit changes so often that ‘end restrictions’ becomes unclear whether that means you can drive 120, 130 or unlimited speed.
> 
> Last year I also drove A3 to Frankfurt, that motorway also has speed limit reductions every few minutes, but it’s a continuous six lanes so it functions a little better than A45.
> 
> But motorways like this aren’t really the perfect image of the German Autobahn for efficient high-speed traffic.


That can easily be solved: Stop making improvements.


----------



## steve5

A6 Schwabach-West - Roth, widening 6 km, U/C 2016-2020, new images April 2020:
Bildergalerie | Infoblatt A6 sechsstreifiger Ausbau zwischen Schwabach und Roth

Nürnberg Ost A6/A9 interchange, extension + flyover construction, U/C 2019-2024, new images May + June 2020:
Bildergalerie | Infoblatt A6 Umbau des Autobahnkreuzes Nürnberg-Ost


----------



## Ni3lS

Holy cow, 140 million


----------



## ChrisZwolle

42 binders worth of documentation for the B238 bypass of Lemgo.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> 42 binders worth of documentation for the B238 bypass of Lemgo.


Yep, the plan approval procedure finally begins. The bypass has a length of 3.1km! B238n: 42 Mappen mit Unterlagen zum Planfeststellungsverfahren zur Ortsumgehung Lemgo gehen auf die Reise nach Detmold | Straßen.NRW

My documentation says:

Preliminary planning completed by state road authorites in Mid 2011 (Vorentwurf)
Preliminary planning approved by Federal Ministry of Transport in January 2013 (Gesehen Vermerk)
Preliminary planning documents just needs to be formatted so that the plan approval procedure can begin. However, the (back then) new state government decided in September 2011 that the project will be on hold due to the huge amount of planning projects in progress and too less manpower (staff was earlier reduced to save money).
It was announced in 2018 that the plan approval procedure should begin 2019.





__





https://openstreetmap.de/karte/






www.openstreetmap.de









__





Dossier






bvwp-projekte.de





Project costs (2014): 12 million €


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> Project costs (2014): 12 million €


It makes you wonder if the planning cost for this type of small road projects isn't higher than the actual construction cost? There must be tens of thousands of hours of work from environmental experts, construction experts, design experts, legal experts, all types of 'managers' and field studies, that kind of work usually costs over € 100/hour. Even small projects like this can have a 10 year development. All that work that nobody will ever read entirely...


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## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> It makes you wonder if the planning cost for this type of small road projects isn't higher than the actual construction cost? There must be tens of thousands of hours of work from environmental experts, construction experts, design experts, legal experts, all types of 'managers' and field studies, that kind of work usually costs over € 100/hour. Even small projects like this can have a 10 year development. All that work that nobody will ever read entirely...


That could well be true. The planning costs seem to be going completely insane, here in the UK things are just as bad. A project local to me (A303 Sparkford to Ilchester) will have cost ~€40m for _planning and design_ for about 6km of new dual carriageway. 

The environmental statement includes the 'Water vole and otter summary', which is 47 pages long. The conclusion is "Although both otters and water voles were confirmed as being present within the survey area, *the scheme is not anticipated to directly affect any water course or drainage feature used by either species*." So 47 pages, and who knows how many hours and amounts of money, to conclude there are no likely impacts. A 30 second glance at a map would have given the same answer, as it is almost entirely over relatively high ground with no permanent streams.

I'm not suggesting we should ignore environmental factors, but it seems that common sense has gone completely out of the window


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Stuu said:


> I'm not suggesting we should ignore environmental factors, but it seems that common sense has gone completely out of the window


Agreed, I think the regulatory system has spiraled out of control if you need this much documentation for just a 3 kilometer two-lane road. 

In the Netherlands it is the same, the original plan approval (called a 'tracébesluit' or alignment decision) was meant for major new greenfield roads like motorways. But it has since expanded to encompass every small improvement to a motorway system. For example, a widening from four to six lanes within the existing footprint / right of way is in essence just a 3.5 meter strip of asphalt. It's debatable to what extent you would need thousands of pages of documentation to approve such a minor change. 

Another problem with plan approval is the consideration, public consultation and fairly detailed design of pointless alternatives. In many cases there are just one or two serious alternatives, there is no need to waste years of planning for alternatives that won't be used anyway. Of course, this varies if there is a greenfield alignment or an adaption of the existing road. I think this is an example of decision-making spiraling out of control.

Residents on/near a road improvement scheme actually complain about the uncertainty during the planning process, because it takes years of planning to come to a final design, during that time residents don't know what the impact will be on them. Just this last week I've stayed on a campsite in Switzerland that may or may not be impacted by the construction of A9 through the Pfynwald. This uncertainty has persisted for 20 years now, all that time the owners couldn't justify investing in their business because it may be wasted money if they have to close down within a few years.

In the United States they have something called a 'FONSI' or 'Finding of No Significant Impact'. I'm not sure how that works exactly, but I believe they can proceed with a project without detailed studies if there is no significant impact likely.


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> Another problem with plan approval is the consideration, public consultation and fairly detailed design of pointless alternatives. In many cases there are just one or two serious alternatives, there is no need to waste years of planning for alternatives that won't be used anyway. Of course, this varies if there is a greenfield alignment or an adaption of the existing road. I think this is an example of decision-making spiraling out of control.


I totally agree... Another effect of all this, which has happened here, is that by the time all the consultation and route selection is done, the cost has increased so the chosen route is no longer affordable within the budget, so the whole process has to start again


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## hungrykitten

It's a major problem in developed Western countries. In the UK, the requirements of the Planning Act 2008 are incredibly onerous, and contribute to the incredibly high cost of projects relative to what is delivered. If we want to be reducing the cost of projects, this urgently needs to be looked at, both in the UK and countries in a similar situation, like Germany.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Kreuz Oberhausen*

The plans for the reconstruction of the _Kreuz Oberhausen_ (A2/A3/A516) have been published on 15 June. They will construct a direct two lane connector road for traffic from Cologne to Arnhem, while the other direction will also be expanded to two lanes. This means that the 'TOTSO' situation at Kreuz Oberhausen will be improved significantly. A3 traffic currently has to use a single lane loop and a single lane ramp to follow the route.





__





Planfeststellungsverfahren für den Um- und Ausbau des Autobahnkreuzes Oberhausen (A2/ A3/ A516)


Planfeststellungsverfahren für den Um- und Ausbau des Autobahnkreuzes Oberhausen (A2/ A3/ A516)




www.bezreg-koeln.nrw.de


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## ChrisZwolle

*A281, Bremen*

The federal court has dismissed the appeals against the construction of a missing segment of A281 in Bremen. This is a very tiny segment, under 2 kilometers long, near the airport. It has a long planning history, the first plan approval was already passed in 2009 but struck down by court in 2010. It has taken another 10 years of planning to get this segment approved.





__





Pressemitteilung Nr. 41/2020 | Bundesverwaltungsgericht







www.bverwg.de


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## MichiH

MichiH said:


> Complaints against the plan approval order for a *A49* section have been rejected today. The plan approval order was issued in 2012. It was challenged but complaints have been rejected in 2014. There was a plan approval supplement procedure and the order was issued in January 2019. A water protection EU directive was changed meanwhile and that was the reason for the new complaint. The court has suggested a compromise settlement this afternoon but road authorities (state of Hesse) didn't agree. The final decision whether the plan approval order is legal was passed this evening. And it is legal  Complainer were a nature conservation organisation and a private land owner.
> 
> It is planned to start construction for the last 30km later this year. Preliminary works are already in progress. It's a PPP project and the section should be completed in 2024. Construction works for the neighboring section (11km) have been started in 2011 and were announced to be completed by Mid 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bau der A49: Bundesverwaltungsgericht Leipzig weist Klage ab
> 
> 
> Der Bau der A49 im Vogelsbergkreis ist derzeit in aller Munde - dabei ist die Meinung der Bürger gespalten. Am Dienstag verhandelte das Bundesverwaltungsgericht in Leipzig darüber. Denn der Bund für Umwelt und Naturschutz Deutsch...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> osthessen-news.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openstreetmap.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lückenschluss der A 49: DEGES beantwortete Bürgerfragen in erster Sprechstunde
> 
> 
> Regelmäßige Termine für interessierte Bürgerinnen und Bürger ergänzen Informationsausstellung in Stadtallendorf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.deges.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Press release of the court: Pressemitteilung Nr. 37/2020 | Bundesverwaltungsgericht


There was another complaint. It was dismissed today  Pressemitteilung Nr. 40/2020 | Bundesverwaltungsgericht
AND: Strabag was awarded for the PPP project today (construction + maintenance) A49: Ministerium vergibt Bauauftrag


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## ChrisZwolle

It's good to see that the A49 extension will finally become reality after decades of planning. It's now all set in stone: there is a contractor, the complaints are dismissed and this is a PPP so we'll likely see a construction time of 4-5 years instead of 12 years (like the Neuental - Schwalmstadt segment).


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## ChrisZwolle

Almost (?) all states have decided not to implement the new traffic code / fines due to some kind of irregularity.









Bußgeldkatalog: Warum die alten Strafen wieder gelten sollen


Der neue Bußgeldkatalog soll vorerst nicht angewendet werden. Dazu fordert der Bund die Länder auf. Der Grund: Formfehler im Gesetz.




www.zdf.de





The new fines also meant that a suspension of the drivers license was possible from 21 km/h over the speed limit in urban areas and 26 km/h over elsewhere, quite a tightening from 31 and 41 km/h previously. The federal minister also considered this disproportional. 









Formfehler im Gesetz: Auch NRW wendet umstrittenen neuen Bußgeldkatalog nicht mehr an


Neue und laufende Bußgeldverfahren sollen nach der Rechtslage vor dem 28. April 2020 – also der alten Straßenverkehrsordnung – behandelt werden. Einen entsprechenden Erlass gibt es nun vom Düsseldorfer Innenministerium.




rp-online.de


----------



## G0KU

How is the progress with a44 kassel eisenach?


----------



## MichiH

G0KU said:


> How is the progress with a44 kassel eisenach?


No opening in 2020 and no opening in 2021. Hesse road authorities stopped publishing estimated opening dates on their project site years ago. I guess because they never(!) met the deadlines.

Sections by opening date starting in 2014:



MichiH said:


> *A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-Center 2.2km (April 2008 to 24th July 2014) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* AS Hessisch Lichtenau-East – Hasselbach 4.3km (September 2010 to 13th April 2018) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* Hasselbach – AS Waldkappel 6.9km (March 2011 to 13th April 2018) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* AS Helsa-East – AS Hessisch Lichtenau-West 6.1km (May 2010 to Early 2022) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* AS Waldkappel – AS Ringgau 7.9km (July 2016 to 2022) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* AS Sontra-East – AD Wommen (A4) ~7.5km (August 2017 to 2023) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* AS Ringgau – AS Sontra-West ~4km (Early 2017 to 2025) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP
> *A44:* AS Sontra-West – AS Sontra-East ~9km (June 2018 to 2025) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


Good news: All sections but one - the most important one in the west - are u/c now.


----------



## G0KU

Thanks.
Opening dates are sad. I hoped for a faster opening.
I think that this new A44 section would make route from western Europe to Poland easier than current route through Leipzig.



MichiH said:


> Good news: All sections but one - the most important one in the west - are u/c now.


The one with A7 junction? I don't think it's the most important, B7 road looks acceptable here and it's "only" 10 km.


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## MichiH

G0KU said:


> The one with A7 junction? I don't think it's the most important, B7 road looks acceptable here and it's "only" 10 km.


yep. Trucks are banned from existing B7 (and therefore from A44 for transit) till the last segment will be open.


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## pascalwithvespa95

ChrisZwolle said:


> Almost (?) all states have decided not to implement the new traffic code / fines due to some kind of irregularity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bußgeldkatalog: Warum die alten Strafen wieder gelten sollen
> 
> 
> Der neue Bußgeldkatalog soll vorerst nicht angewendet werden. Dazu fordert der Bund die Länder auf. Der Grund: Formfehler im Gesetz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zdf.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new fines also meant that a suspension of the drivers license was possible from 21 km/h over the speed limit in urban areas and 26 km/h over elsewhere, quite a tightening from 31 and 41 km/h previously. The federal minister also considered this disproportional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Formfehler im Gesetz: Auch NRW wendet umstrittenen neuen Bußgeldkatalog nicht mehr an
> 
> 
> Neue und laufende Bußgeldverfahren sollen nach der Rechtslage vor dem 28. April 2020 – also der alten Straßenverkehrsordnung – behandelt werden. Einen entsprechenden Erlass gibt es nun vom Düsseldorfer Innenministerium.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rp-online.de


Stick to the speed limit, then you have nothing to worry about.


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## ChrisZwolle

The point is that losing your license is disproportional for an offence that would otherwise be handled by a fine of € 80.


----------



## ppplus

What is the price of the license in Germany?


----------



## TM_Germany

Around two - to three thousand Euro nowadays including the lessons.


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## Corvinus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Almost (?) all states have decided not to implement the new traffic code / fines due to some kind of irregularity.


Good hint! Indeed, ADAC states:


> Wegen eines Formfehlers im Gesetzestext der Straßenverkehrsordnung (StVO) sind wahrscheinlich nicht nur die neuen Fahrverbotsregeln unwirksam, sondern alle Änderungen des Bußgeldkatalogs vom April 2020. Nicht betroffen sind die Verhaltensregeln der StVO etwa in Bezug auf den Schutz von Radfahrern.


"Because of a formal defect in the text of the law of the road traffic code (StVO), probably not only the new license suspension rules, but all changes of the fine catalogue of April 2020 are void. Not affected are the StVO's [new] rules regarding protection of bicyclists, for example."

According to the info further beneath, the formal defect referred to consists of "incomplete quotation of the basis of authorization" (whatever that exactly means ....)









StVO-Novelle: Das sind die Regeln


Die neue Straßenverkehrsordnung gilt seit dem 28. April 2020. Ziel der Novelle: Mehr Sicherheit für alle Verkehrsteilnehmer, vor allem für Radfahrer.




www.adac.de


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## MichiH

Corvinus said:


> According to the info further beneath, the formal defect referred to consists of "incomplete quotation of the basis of authorization" (whatever that exactly means ....)


They didn't quote the law it is based on.


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## tfd543

Idk if it was mentioned before but there is a rather new website showing all the current roadworks in D. Have fun.





__





BaustellenCheck







www.baustellen-check.de


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## mapman:cz

tfd543 said:


> Idk if it was mentioned before but there is a rather new website showing all the current roadworks in D. Have fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BaustellenCheck
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.baustellen-check.de


Interestingly, it does not show all "Baustellen". Yesterday I've been driving on the A9 near Bayreuth and there is a large scale Baustelle at exit 39 Bad Berneck, that is not shown on that website.


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## tfd543

mapman:cz said:


> Interestingly, it does not show all "Baustellen". Yesterday I've been driving on the A9 near Bayreuth and there is a large scale Baustelle at exit 39 Bad Berneck, that is not shown on that website.


Thats a pity. I Think its based on people’s reports and not an official page. The layout is nice though and tells you even When the work is expected to be finished.

Im gonna take A9 in 2 weeks nurnberg-munich.. was that the only roadwork you Saw? 

I simply love that its gonna be 2x3 all the way. Yaay.


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## MichiH

tfd543 said:


> I Think its based on people’s reports and not an official page. The layout is nice though and tells you even When the work is expected to be finished.


No, it is an official site! People can give feedback though.



tfd543 said:


> Im gonna take A9 in 2 weeks nurnberg-munich.. was that the only roadwork you Saw?


Bad Berneck is north of Nuremberg but you'll head southwards.


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## tfd543

MichiH said:


> No, it is an official site! People can give feedback though.
> 
> 
> 
> Bad Berneck is north of Nuremberg but you'll head southwards.


Ah ok. Good to know.

My bad, Its Leipzig-Munich that im gonna do.


----------



## mapman:cz

tfd543 said:


> Im gonna take A9 in 2 weeks nurnberg-munich.. was that the only roadwork you Saw?


Yes, it was the only one. I drove only few kms between B303 and B22 and then to Weiden...
Thanks for replies.


----------



## flierfy

Just a short interruption of the permanent gloom and doom in this thread: the A 10 widening between Potsdam and Nuthetal junction is finished.


----------



## Grzegorz.Janoszka

I am going to drive via Germany soon. Do I need those face masks even on the gas station on the highway? Any help appreciated.


----------



## pascalwithvespa95

Grzegorz.Janoszka said:


> I am going to drive via Germany soon. Do I need those face masks even on the gas station on the highway? Any help appreciated.


Yep, you do. You always have to wear them in stores (such as gas stations).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You do need one in the shop or toilets. But from what I've seen nobody wears one while pumping fuel. Only to pay inside.


----------



## tfd543

flierfy said:


> Just a short interruption of the permanent gloom and doom in this thread: the A 10 widening between Potsdam and Nuthetal junction is finished.


Have the source?


----------



## tfd543

ChrisZwolle said:


> You do need one in the shop or toilets. But from what I've seen nobody wears one while pumping fuel. Only to pay inside.


What about if you eat in the restaurant in the gas station ? What do you do then.


----------



## TM_Germany

You wear the mask until you get to the table and then you can take it off. If they have an actual restaurant, they might ask you to give them your contact details so they can track you down in case there happens to be a case associated with the place.


----------



## tfd543

TM_Germany said:


> You wear the mask until you get to the table and then you can take it off. If they have an actual restaurant, they might ask you to give them your contact details so they can track you down in case there happens to be a case associated with the place.


Thnx. Good to know. Im gonna travel from nothern D to southern.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There has been sabotage on the A49 construction site. It has been attempted to set 5 excavators on fire.









Anschlag auf A49-Baustelle - Versuchter Mord?


Auf der A49 haben Unbekannte mehrere Brandsätze auf einer Baustelle platziert. Die Staatsanwaltschaft ermittelt wegen versuchen Mordes. Die Polizei bittet die Bevölkerung bei der Suche nach den Tätern um mithilfe.




www.hna.de





There are no claims or suspects, but the report does note that anti-motorway radicals have set up a tree house camp nearby since last fall.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A3 Würzburg - Nürnberg*

The massive, 76 kilometer long A3 widening between Würzburg and Nürnberg will officially commence tomorrow:









A3-Ausbau auf 76 Kilometern: Am Freitag geht's los


NÜRNBERG - Es ist ein beispielloses Autobahn-Ausbauprojekt in der Region: Auf 76 Kilometern wird die A3 zwischen den Kreuzen Fürth/Erlangen und Biebelried bei Würzburg sechsstreifig ausgebaut. Ende 2025 soll alles fertig sein. Am Freitagvormittag setzt hohe Politikprominenz den ersten Spatenstich.




www.nordbayern.de





This is a large PPP contract that will widen A3 to six lanes over a period of 5 years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A8 at Pforzheim was closed this Sunday to install new bridge beams:










Report & photos: Liveticker zum Nachlesen: A8 bei Pforzheim nach eintägiger Sperrung wieder freigegeben - Region - Pforzheimer-Zeitung


----------



## Corvinus

pascalwithvespa95 said:


> Stick to the speed limit, then you have nothing to worry about.


Unfortunately not always true:









Lenkerin in Italien mit 703 km/h geblitzt


Eine Italienerin ist in Ancona mit mehr als 700 km/h statt der erlaubten 70 km/h unterwegs gewesen - zumindest wurde sie mit diesem Wert geblitzt, ...




www.krone.at





While that example is from Italy (Ford Focus owner receiving fine for alleged speed of 703 km/h), there have also been examples of automatic speed camera malfunctions in Germany, as well as incorrectly operated hand-held or semi-automatic ones. In those cases, it matters very well if you have the license suspended beginning at an excess of 26 or 41 km/h. For some, the economic impact of suspension is drastic, and it is little helpful when the authority becomes cognizant of the malfunction weeks or months afterward. 

The malfunction need not be as obvious as in the linked article (speed of a passenger jet), it suffices to program a wrong speed limit into the device (e.g. 60 km/h instead of 80) - happened more than once ...

That said, the original purpose of license suspension (reducing publicly dangerous behaviour on the roads) shall not be disputed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The first widened segment of the large A10/A24 PPP project has been completed: a 3.2 km segment between Dreieck Havelland and Oberkrämer is flowing on six lanes from tomorrow on. This is northwest of Berlin. More completions are expected over the next year or so.









Infrastruktur: Erster Bauabschnitt auf der nördlichen A 10 ist fertig


Die letzten Arbeiten auf dem Teilstück zwischen Dreieck Havelland und Oberkrämer werden Mitte August abgeschlossen. Weitere Freigaben erfolgen noch in diesem Jahr.




www.moz.de





_Von Donnerstag an soll zwischen dem Dreieck Havelland und Oberkrämer der Verkehr auf drei Fahrspuren je Richtung fließen. _


----------



## MichiH

However, the article states that it was planned to shift the traffic onto the right carriageway today (delayed to tomorrow) and that the last pole will be removed in Mid August. That means, today it'S 4+0 and from tomorrow 2+3. From Mid August 3+3 lanes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A43, Recklinghausen*

The first widening project of A43 in the Ruhr Area will be completed soon. They will implement two weekend closures to apply the final asphalt layer on a 4 kilometer section of A43 through Recklinghausen, between the Recklinghausen/Herten exit and Kreuz Recklinghausen (A2). 

A43 will be closed southbound from 30.7 - 3.8 and northbound from 6.8 - 10.8. After 10 August, this section will have six lanes, the first six lane segment of A43.






A43: Fahrbahnsperrung an zwei verlängerten Wochenenden zum Abschluss der Arbeiten im nördlichen Recklinghausen | Straßen.NRW


Die erste Vollsperrung erfolgt von Donnerstag (30.7.) um 20 Uhr bis Montag (3.8.) um 5 Uhr in Fahrtrichtung Wuppertal. In der Woche darauf wird von Donnerstag (6.8.) um 20 Uhr bis Montag (10.8.) um 5 Uhr die Fahrtrichtung Münster gesperrt und fertiggestellt



www.strassen.nrw.de


----------



## Attus

This week I drove to Hungary and back to Western Germany. I haven't been between Frankfurt and Passau for two years. 
The section between Aschaffenburg and Würzburg is great, a climbing lane at Spessart towards Frankfurt would be nice, everything else is OK. It's a pity that twenty years of construction was the price for that. The short section at Würzburg has not been finished yet (I suppose Michi knows it very well ), yesterday I saw a long queue towards Nuremberg, radio reported a delay of thirty minutes.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> The section between Aschaffenburg and Würzburg is great,


Yep, "my" Autobahn is finally 2x3 



Attus said:


> a climbing lane at Spessart towards Frankfurt would be nice, everything else is OK.


There are three similar situations (similar AADT). Additional climbing lanes (4th lane in addition to the 3 driving lanes plus emergency lane) have been implemented west of Spessart mountains (b/n Bessenbach/Waldaschaff and Rohrbrunn eastbound) and uphill to the Franconian plateau (b/n Wertheim and Helmstadt eastbound) but not east of Spessart mountains (b/n Wertheim and Rohrbrunn westbound) because the longer slope is ends up in a lower grade. It's usually not an issue under normal conditions but trucks tend to stuck here in icy conditions. Since there are only 3 instead of 4 lanes as at the other locations, cars cannot pass as easily here and long traffic jams are more common. Of course, it's the same in case of any kind of traffic disruption like smaller accidents all year round.



Attus said:


> It's a pity that twenty years of construction was the price for that.


Yep. Since the River Main bridge replacement at Aschaffenburg (~1987) was the first section of the widening, it started even more than 30 years ago. The River Main bridge at Wertheim (September 1997 - March 2001) was the second construction site for widening (0.7km only and 2x2 by Novemer 2017) followed by 2x3 widening east of Aschaffenburg (from spring 2001).



Attus said:


> The short section at Würzburg has not been finished yet (I suppose Michi knows it very well ), yesterday I saw a long queue towards Nuremberg, radio reported a delay of thirty minutes.


Drove there yesterday morning. Traffic has recently been shifted onto the right carriageway east of the "tunnel". It should be completed by fall 2021. Preliminary works began in late 2012. There will be a 4th climbing lane westbound, and there is already another one east of the current construction site eastbound.

_Summary: continuous disruptions due to construction sites from late 1997 to late 2021 = 24 years._


----------



## tfd543

Somebody that Can tell me where A7 is 2x2 and stretches where Its more? Im going from Hamburg to Munich and considering A7 or A9. I know already that A9 is 2x3 pretty much all the way.


----------



## MichiH

tfd543 said:


> Somebody that Can tell me where A7 is 2x2 and stretches where Its more? Im going from Hamburg to Munich and considering A7 or A9. I know already that A9 is 2x3 pretty much all the way.





A7 - Autobahnatlas


red = 2 lanes per direction, violet = 3 lanes per direction, darkviolet = 4 lanes per direction (full legend)

A7 has more 2x2 sections and does currently have more construction sites. Use A9!

I'll travel almost the whole (painful) A7 next week when I go on vacation to your home region


----------



## tfd543

MichiH said:


> A7 - Autobahnatlas
> 
> 
> red = 2 lanes per direction, violet = 3 lanes per direction, darkviolet = 4 lanes per direction (full legend)
> 
> A7 has more 2x2 sections and does currently have more construction sites. Use A9!
> 
> I'll travel almost the whole (painful) A7 next week when I go on vacation to your home region


@MichiH thnx pal. Will do. Gonna take the rodby-Puttgarten now and continue further. About to board now.


----------



## MichiH

tfd543 said:


> @MichiH thnx pal. Will do. Gonna take the rodby-Puttgarten now and continue further. About to board now.


Have a safe trip! I'd go Gedser - Rostock though. A19 - A24 - A10 - A9.


----------



## tfd543

Yea i know. The ferry was too expensive for me that way so im gonna do hamburg-leipzig-munich.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An opening date has been announced for the A14 extension between Colbitz and Tangerhütte: 14 September 2020.









A14-Teilstück im September frei: Autobahn GmbH übernimmt


<p>Dolle (dpa/sa) - Die A14-Nordverlängerung in Sachsen-Anhalt wächst. Am 14. September wird der Abschnitt zwischen Colbitz und der Anschlussstelle Tangerhütte durch Bundesverkehrsminister Andreas Scheuer (CSU) für den Verkehr freigegeben. Das tei...




www.volksstimme.de





Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently the loop ramp of A7/A39 at Dreieck Salzgitter has or had a 20 km/h speed limit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A missspelling on a sign on A45: Schwerte-Engste instead of Schwerte-Ergste. They addressed the error, but not the jungle in front of it...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Overhead wires for electric trucks are being installed on B462 near Gaggenau in Baden-Württemberg:









Projekt ewayBW – B462 unter Strom: Vorbereitungen für Oberleitungs-Lkw laufen


Der Aufbau der Oberleitungs-Infrastruktur an der B462 im Murgtal hat begonnen. Im Frühjahr 2021 soll der Feldversuch mit Oberleitungs-Lkw starten.




www.eurotransport.de





Project website: Was ist eWayBW?


----------



## Coccodrillo

These prototypes usually use low voltage DC (~700 V), which means a lot of substations (every few km) and not a high capacity, as the power transmissible to trucks would be low. Trucks would have to be around half km distant from each other. Then there is the problem that many trucks (and thus pantographs) under the same wire would make the overhead wires unstable (that's why trains with more than one locomotive use, if possible, the most distant pantographs they have).

Using high voltage AC would partly solve these problems but introduce others (more complicated and expensive vehicles, more distance needed between the wires and between a wire and high veicles like double deck buses).

Basically doing an experiment is quite easy, using this system on a larger scale would be difficult (I can't say impossible, but I would be surprised to see this system on a large scale).

For short distances trucks with batteries (maybe with more frequent quick charges using automated systems like this one, rather than high capacity and heavy batteries charged only during long pauses) seems more feasible to me, while for long distances it would be better to ship semitrailers or swap bodies alone by train (without tractors and drivers).


----------



## panda80

Drove and filmed on last Thursday the whole B2R (Mittlere Ring) in München. The traffic is very high, there were 2 accidents, one of them on the south part caused a 4-5 km long jam where I lost about 45 minutes. 

Do you know if there are any plans to upgrade also the last sections, from A995 to 2-3 km north of A8 to a city expressway-like road? It is the only section with traffic lights. 

I found the southern part of the ring more problematic in terms of traffic, maybe they should rethink and bring back the plans of finishing the A99 in the south. It will surely relieve the south of München from some transit traffic, as the connection A96-A8 (direction Salzburg) is made on B2R now.

The whole video with my commentary:


----------



## cinxxx

^^But afaik freight traffic is not allowed to use the B2R to go from A8 to A96, they have to take to A99 north, I'm sure I've seen signs for this before entering Munich on A8...
Still, full A99 ring motorway would be great, unfortunately there are too many rich people lining in the south who don't a motorway in their back yard


----------



## Coccodrillo

An addition about electric heavy vehicles: for urban buses it is different. At the moment, for them it is still better to use conventional trolleybuses rather than battery buses (whether with short loadings at many stops, or only overnight laoding), especially if these trolleybuses do not have large batteries or ICEs.

Urban trolleybuses are lighter and slower than long distance trucks, so, although they also run on ~700 V DC, it is possible to have quite frequent trolleybuses on a line, more than it is possible to have electric trucks on a motorway.

The only "problem" with trolleybuses is that overhead wires are "ugly", but I don't think they are the main "source of uglyness" in most situations. And it is still possible to run sections of bus lines with hybrid trolley/battery buses, without building wires near monuments. Quite many cities in Switzerland are actually planning to expand their networks with these hybrid buses, using batteries on new sections and overhead wires on existing and some new sections. These hybrid buses need smaller and thus lighter batteries than full battery buses, which is cheaper and increases the number of passengers.

Finally, a special case of trolleytrucks: The Case for Trolley Assist


----------



## panda80

cinxxx said:


> ^^But afaik freight traffic is not allowed to use the B2R to go from A8 to A96, they have to take to A99 north, I'm sure I've seen signs for this before entering Munich on A8...
> Still, full A99 ring motorway would be great, unfortunately there are too many rich people lining in the south who don't a motorway in their back yard


 Yes, freight traffic has to take A96, they can drive just between A96 and A95. But most passenger cars take B2R to go from A96 to A8.


----------



## MichiH

panda80 said:


> Do you know if there are any plans to upgrade also the last sections, from A995 to 2-3 km north of A8 to a city expressway-like road? It is the only section with traffic lights.


Not planned. In total, only three upgrades (tunnels) are (or were?) planned for the Ring (green):


















Handlungsprogramm Mittlerer Ring


muenchen.de – Das offizielle Stadtportal für München – Willkommen im Rathaus




www.muenchen.de







panda80 said:


> I found the southern part of the ring more problematic in terms of traffic, maybe they should rethink and bring back the plans of finishing the A99 in the south. It will surely relieve the south of München from some transit traffic, as the connection A96-A8 (direction Salzburg) is made on B2R now.


As cinxxx wrote, the rich NiMBYs are the problem..... The chance to complete the ring is zero - even if it would be 100% underground for xx billion €. The feasibility study is from 2010.


----------



## Rohne

I'd be very happy already if someday they closed the gap between A95 and A96 and thus at least connected A95 to the rest of the german network. But even that is quite unrealistic at the moment.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A98 Rheinfelden*

The 2.5 kilometer extension of A98 near Rheinfelden is now scheduled to be completed in September 2021. Construction began in March 2009, which means a total construction time of 12.5 years.









Neuigkeiten aus dem Regierungspräsidium - Regierungspräsidium Freiburg


Regierungspräsidien Baden-Württemberg




rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> A missspelling on a sign on A45: Schwerte-Engste instead of Schwerte-Ergste. They addressed the error, but not the jungle in front of it...


I suppose trimming the branches would be un-green. Or require a ten-year planning-approval process.


----------



## panda80

Drove and filmed last week the A95, the only motorway in Germany not connected to another motorway, from B2R in München to Sindelsdorf (intersection with B472). There are 2 construction zones, one near the intersection with the spur to Stranberg (A952) and one close to Sindelsdorf. Both are 80km/h, 2x2, there was no congestion there.

As the motorway goes towards the mountains, there are nice views in front, while travelling southbound from München. One can see the heighest mountain from Germany, Zugspitze, on good weather days. The road itself goes over some nice hills, at altitudes of about 550-750m asl.


----------



## lampsakos21

Latest updates on Fehmarnbelt project. Estimated completion of the project would be around mid of 2029


----------



## MichiH

lampsakos21 said:


> Latest updates on Fehmarnbelt project. Estimated completion of the project would be around mid of 2029


Nice but very optimistic. Building permits are not yet final. Court hearings will be in late September / early October. I doubt that all complaints will be rejected.


----------



## lampsakos21

it will be done at the end . But as always we have to go through all this drama of appeals and objections


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> Nice but very optimistic. Building permits are not yet final. Court hearings will be in late September / early October. I doubt that all complaints will be rejected.


I do not think the German court handling is on the critical path yet. The construction begins with building the tunnel element factory on the Danish side, and there will be no digging on the German soil in years. The Fehmarnsund tunnel project in Germany may be delayed, but it is not a show stopper.

If the court says no to the project, the elements already produced might be used for the tunnel between Sweden and Poland.


----------



## Penn's Woods

MattiG said:


> I do not think the German court handling is on the critical path yet. The construction begins with building the tunnel element factory on the Danish side, and there will be no digging on the German soil in years. The Fehmarnsund tunnel project in Germany may be delayed, but it is not a show stopper.
> 
> If the court says no to the project, the elements already produced might be used for the tunnel between Sweden and Poland.


Tunnel between Sweden and Poland?!


----------



## JMBasquiat

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A98 Rheinfelden*
> 
> The 2.5 kilometer extension of A98 near Rheinfelden is now scheduled to be completed in September 2021. Construction began in March 2009, which means a total construction time of 12.5 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neuigkeiten aus dem Regierungspräsidium - Regierungspräsidium Freiburg
> 
> 
> Regierungspräsidien Baden-Württemberg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de


12.5 years for 2.5 kilometers?


----------



## henmar

JMBasquiat said:


> 12.5 years for 2.5 kilometers?


They built a bridge for the A98/A861 junction first and then did a 6 year break before continuing with the rest of the section.


----------



## MattiG

Penn's Woods said:


> Tunnel between Sweden and Poland?!


Wouldn't it be a nice choice if Germany says no?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They did some earthworks during that time too, east of the Herrschaftsbuck Tunnel in 2012-2013.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> *B31:* Immenstaad – Friedrichshafen/Waggershausen 7.1km (November 2014 to Late 2020) project / OSM / _prop_ / GM / SP


The western 5.8km segment was opened for vehicles < 3.5tons today (blue on map). The 1.3km gap to the existing bypass section will be opened in spring 2021.


















Teilstück der B31neu bei Friedrichshafen geöffnet


Ein Teilstück der Umfahrung von Friedrichshafen auf der B31neu ist freigegeben worden und ist ab sofort befahrbar. Im Frühjahr soll auch der restliche Teil der Strecke fertig sein.




www.swr.de









Stadt Friedrichshafen: Wissenswertes







www.friedrichshafen.de


----------



## Ingenioren

MattiG said:


> tunnel between Sweden and Poland.


What would be the distance of such a tunnel, i guess it would go via Bornholm (DK)


----------



## MattiG

Ingenioren said:


> What would be the distance of such a tunnel, i guess it would go via Bornholm (DK)


The shore-to-shore distance Sweden-Bornholm is about 38 kilometers and Bornholm-Poland about 96 km.


----------



## MichiH

Rusonaldo said:


> @flierfy
> Thank you.
> Are there approximately 13,000 km of motorways in Germany in 2020?


A little bit more.

Last time I counted was in 2013 when it was 12,930.1km. About 260km have been opened meanwhile (88km due to rededication of B road).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A45 Siegtalbrücke*

Various media report that the federal ministry has approved the cable-stayed variant for the replacement of the Siegtalbrücke (Sieg Valley Bridge) on A45 near Siegen. Construction won't begin before 2027. Back in 2016 construction was planned between 2023 and 2026.









Neue Siegtalbrücke Siegen „Krone für Königin der Autobahnen“


Straßen NRW: Schrägseilkonstruktion für die Siegener Siegtalbrücke bietet Vorteile in Sachen Bauzeit, Betroffenheit der Bevölkerung und Kosten.




www.wr.de





This is in fact an 'extradosed bridge', because the cables don't support the entire span. This is a box girder bridge with a cable-stayed configuration to increase the length of the span. Extradosed bridges allow longer girder spans than usual, but with smaller towers than typical cable-stayed bridges.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A7 Talbrücke Thulba*

Construction will commence this month to replace the Thulba Bridge of A7 near Bad Kissingen. The 460 meter long bridge will be replaced until late 2026. 

At first they will construct a new span east of the existing bridge. This will be completed by late 2022. They will then switch all traffic to the new span and tear down the existing 1968 bridge. A new southbound span will be constructed in its place and finally the northbound span will be moved sideways to its final position.

This sideways process (_querverschub_) has become more popular in recent years. A major advantage is that they don't need to realign the motorway. Many older bridges consist of a single structure so it cannot be replaced in one half. 

The replacement cost is rather high: € 102 million, which is more expensive than most bridge replacements of this caliber (which are usually in the € 35 - 70 million range).

Source PDF: http://www.abdnb.bayern.de/imperia/...ahndirektion/aktuelles/2020_10_13_w_47_20.pdf

A photo of the existing bridge:


----------



## MichiH

The conservationists who protest against the A49 construction ("Save 160 trees") made a _cool_ action today. They rappeled from a bridge over A3 near Wiesbaden.




Result:

















Sieben Umweltschützer nach A3-Blockade festgenommen


Neuer Tag, neue Proteste: An der umstrittenen A49-Baustelle hat die Polizei ein Aktivistencamp geräumt. Bei Idstein führte eine Blockade der A3 zur Vollsperrung, einem schweren Unfall und Festnahmen.




www.hessenschau.de


----------



## Bender

If they get away with a slap on the wrist like they usually do, this will happen again. Acceptable collateral damage for the greater good, I guess.


----------



## Shenkey

Shouldn't there be a block on the bottom of the trailer for that to not happen?


----------



## Corvinus

With up to 20% of Germans voting for the green party nowadays, a lot of pseudo-ecological nonsense going on is sad, but not surprising anymore ...

At least, according to the article, the crash resulting in critical injuries of the 29 year old car driver, is not _directly_ caused by the dimwit eco-fundamentalists rappelling from the bridge. There was already a longer backup after police closing down the motorway, and the car rear-ended the truck already stuck in it. Would also have happened, had the backup been caused by anything else. Of course the self-proclaimed eco-warriors still bear a guilt since in this case, the motorway closedown would not have occurred without their retarded action.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A14 Dahlenwarsleben - Wolmirstedt*

The plan approval has been issued for another A14 segment, the 11.5 kilometer segment between Dahlenwarsleben and Wolmirstedt, which is the southernmost segment of the A14 project. The project cost is estimated at € 92.5 million. They will construct a bridge over the Mittelland Canal and not another tunnel like the nearby B189 expressway. 

Press release:








Pressemitteilungen


Aktuelle Pressemitteilungen des Ministeriums für Infrastruktur und Digitales




mlv.sachsen-anhalt.de


----------



## MichiH

The groundbreaking ceremony for the A14 section near Wittenberge (with river Elbe bridge) was announced for today but seems to be moved to Friday now.


----------



## Bender

keokiracer said:


> 13.199 km Autobahn and 2.351 km Autobahnähnlich (Jan 1st 2020)
> Sauce (basically @ChrisZwolle )


13199km and the Rhein-Ruhr region is still not even properly connected to Luxembourg and beyond, to France 🤪


----------



## bogdymol

Truth being said, the motorway connections between France and Germany are not very good. There are only 2 of them, one near Saarbrucken and a second one near Mulhouse. For the 2 largest EU countries sharing a long border with major populations centers along it this is sub-standard.


----------



## tunnel owl

bogdymol said:


> Truth being said, the motorway connections between France and Germany are not very good. There are only 2 of them, one near Saarbrucken and a second one near Mulhouse. For the 2 largest EU countries sharing a long border with major populations centers along it this is sub-standard.


Well said, but which motorways between France and Germany are missing?
- Upgrade of B9 to link A35(F) to A65(D). It seems not to have much priority and it would not be a game-changer, linking two moreover local motorways.

- Another connection around Straßburg. This would be nice, because there are connections to the french Hinterland but not to the german...

I think it depends on geography in case of France/Germany border crossings. On both sides of the Rhine there are just a few adjacent motorways as possible links to other major cities in France/Germany.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another missing link is from German A1 to French A4. The current motorway system in that area is geared towards east-west movements, north-south is lacking. Another missing motorway link is Metz to Stuttgart, which requires a two-lane road at some point. 

B28 in Germany is a high-standard road from A5 to Kehl, but becomes a city street in Strasbourg. French N353 is an expressway but becomes a two-lane road in Germany. There is a mismatch of roads there. 

However traffic volumes are typically low on international borders, even more when there is a language barrier. So these missing links don't pop up as urgent problems.


----------



## MichiH

tunnel owl said:


> - Upgrade of B9 to link A35(F) to A65(D). It seems not to have much priority and it would not be a game-changer, linking two moreover local motorways.


The only discussed project I remember..... A65 (click for OSM) was in the demand plan from 2003 but is canceled now. The western A98 (click for OSM) extension (northern Basel bypass) and B500 (click for OSM) upgrade to 2x2 with hard shoulders were also in that plan. Only 2.5km of B500 upgrade are left in the new demand plan from 2016 ("valid" by 2030) but the estimated AADT is just 30,000 vehicles/day, benefit cost relation only 7.7 and therefore just further demand (lowest category). The last section of the 2-laned B31 (click for OSM) west of Freiburg is still in the demand plan (estimated AADT 16,000 vehicles/day, benefit cost relation 3.6, urgent demand).

Map of BVWP 2030 from 2016:




__





Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2030


Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2030




bvwp-projekte.de


----------



## Ingenioren

Are there no plans to fill in the gap in the A1?


----------



## MichiH

Ingenioren said:


> Are there no plans to fill in the gap in the A1?


Sure there are! Quite advance but veeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slow progress - no announcement is met.

Chris was talking about a "gap" to French A4 I don't see.
Well, a 2x2 connection from A1 to A623 (OSM) and further to A620 through Saarbrücken (OSM) is planned - for ages and I think it will remain on paper only....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Saarbrücken lacks a north-south motorway which connects A1 to French A4 towards Strasbourg. The motorway route is 50 kilometers longer than a straight line (35 vs 85 km, so in practice you'd take secondary roads).


----------



## MichiH

^^ There is just no demand for it....


----------



## MichiH

The groundbreaking ceremony for the next *A14* section took place today. It's in the corridor of the existing B189 from west of *Wittenberge to Seehausen* (OSM). It includes the river Elbe bridge. The construction period should be 5 years. The section has a length of 11km and costs 300 million €.








source: DEGES





__





BMDV - Scheuer: Neue Elbbrücke wird Herzstück der A 14







www.bmvi.de












A14-Nordverlängerung von Sachsen-Anhalt nach Wittenberge | MDR.DE


2025 sollen hier die ersten Autos lang fahren können.




www.mdr.de


----------



## MichiH

The groundbreaking ceremony for the 3.9km long *B38 Mörlenbach bypass* took place today (OSM). The new 2-laned road bypasses the village on the east, about half of the road is on bridges or in tunnels - two bridges and two tunnels. It costs 95 million € and it should be opened in 2027.







__





BMDV - Baubeginn für Ortsumgehung Mörlenbach im Zuge der B 38







www.bmvi.de









Neue Ortsumgehung entlastet Mörlenbach | Hessisches Ministerium für Wirtschaft, Energie, Verkehr und Wohnen







wirtschaft.hessen.de


----------



## MichiH

Nope. btw: Tunnel Allach on A99 NW of Munich will be renovated. From 2021 to 2026............


----------



## Ingenioren

Atleast there is no benefit for the Scandlines mafia in delaying the Fehmarnsund tunnel.


----------



## MichiH

Another "_Planbeschleunigungsgesetz_" (planning procedure acceleration law) passed the Bundestag this week. The previous changes on this approach were focused on railways and waterways but not on roads. But the latest one is!





__





BMDV - Schneller bauen - für eine starke Wirtschaft und klimafreundliche Mobilität







www.bmvi.de





There are two important changes for road projects:


A court instance is skipped for challenged infrastructure plan approval orders "upper administrative court" instead of "administrative court". Note that some Autobahn projects were already declared as "very important" in the past (first time by SPD/Greens government in early 2000s) so that the next instance, the "federal administrative court" was the first instance. But now, all those orders skip one instance, also for wind mills etc.
*All important infrastructure projects, including all projects of the federal demand plan (BVWP), cannot be delayed by court challenges anymore. Construction works can start once the order is passed.*



> Für überregional wichtige Infrastrukturprojekte - wie Projekte aus dem Bundesverkehrswegeplan oder dem Mobilfunkausbau - wird gesetzlich ein Sofortvollzug angeordnet.
> Das heißt: *Nach Genehmigung durch die zuständige Behörde kann sofort gebaut werden. Die aufschiebende Wirkung von Widersprüchen oder Anfechtungsklagen entfällt in diesen Fällen.* Der Weg des einstweiligen Rechtsschutzes im Eilverfahren bleibt erhalten.


If I got it right, works on disputed things must be undone if the court decided that it's illegal.



https://www.bundestag.de/presse/hib/803732-803732



Note that it was already possible to order "Sofortvollzug" which is now just given by default - by law. It was usually not done in the past...... because they feared losing voters....


----------



## TM_Germany

Well, that looks like a tiny step in the right direction. But unless there is someserious reform of planning law, very little will change.


----------



## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> very little will change.


The new "Autobahn GmbH" will be responsible for all Autobahn projects from January 1. A new federal authorities instead of a state authority. That means, the political decision to order "Sofortvollzug" would not a state but a federal decision now and I think since the "Sofortvollzug" is given by law now, only a decision against the "Sofortvollzug" would be needed, and why on earth should a federal authority do that? That also means that road authorities can directly start the tender procedures etc.

edit: Another advantage of the new federal authority is, that the "Baufreigabe" (funding) is an "internal" process now. The state had to ask the federal ministry for money and they had to approve it which was often just done once per year - in July (with new Bundeshaushalt / annual federal budget planning)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Under Dutch law construction could also begin immediately after a plan approval order had passed, but in practice they wait until the court has decided on any appeals. In the Netherlands the court must issue a verdict within 6 months for certain categories, including motorway projects. They don't always meet this deadline but it usually doesn't run into multiple years.


----------



## cinxxx

MichiH said:


> Nope. btw: Tunnel Allach on A99 NW of Munich will be renovated. From 2021 to 2026............


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Still _rumble in the jungle _at the A49 construction site:










A lot of police presence is required to cut the trees for the construction of A49.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

More A49... They are constructing a fortification for the construction crew and police at the Dannenröder Forest. 

For those who can read German:


----------



## MichiH

A concrete noise barrier fell down on the A3 near Cologne and killed a woman. The barrier weighs 5 tons. The reason for the incident is unknown.


















Tragischer Unfall bei Köln: Fahrerin auf A3 von Betonplatte erschlagen


Auf der A3 bei Köln löste sich am Freitagmorgen eine fünf Tonnen schwere Platte aus einer Lärmschutzwand. Ein Auto wird darunter begraben und völlig zerstört, die Fahrerin überlebt das Unglück nicht.




rp-online.de


----------



## HarlingenHardest

125 photo's of bypass Hochstetten-Dhaun (Rhineland-Palatinate, part of the B41) under construction:

B41 Hochstetten-Dhaun

Pictures were made mid August, 3 months ago. According to the info sign it should be ready early 2021...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A19 Petersdorfer Brücke*

The replacement of the Petersdorf Bridge of A19 is almost completed now, with full completion by late December 2020. It has taken 5 years to replace this bridge.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327532875705671680
Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## cinxxx

10,000 kilometres of refurbishment jam
Germany's motorways are in poor condition, thousands of bridges need to be renewed. From next year, the federal government will be responsible for this. Will he solve the problem?









(S+) Deutsche Autobahnen noch maroder als befürchtet: 10.000 Kilometer Sanierungsstau


Deutschlands Autobahnen sind in schlechtem Zustand, Tausende Brücken müssen erneuert werden. Ab nächstem Jahr ist dafür der Bund zuständig. Wird er das Problem lösen?




www.spiegel.de


----------



## MichiH

cinxxx said:


> 10,000 kilometres of refurbishment jam


The Autobahn network has a length of 13,000 kilometer. That 75% are in "bad" or "very bad" condition... well... maybe they count single carriageways and it's 37% but still...


----------



## cinxxx

MichiH said:


> The Autobahn network has a length of 13,000 kilometer. That 75% are in "bad" or "very bad" condition... well... maybe they count single carriageways and it's 37% but still...


I was also a little intrigued by that statement. But these are press articles nowadays


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Maybe it's 10,000 kilometers of the _Bundesfernstraßen_? We know the bridges are bad but they don't account for that much length.

It's kind of baffling that so much mileage is still supposedly in poor condition, with so many construction sites each season. Sometimes they top 500 simultaneous construction sites on the Autobahn system (every 25 km on average).


----------



## MichiH

The article clearly names "Autobahn" and that the federal government will be responsible from 2021 - "Die Autobahn GmbH des Bundes". And _Die Autobahn_ is only responsible for Autobahns - and a few Bundesstraßen, e.g. B404 in SH which should be upgraded to A21. The other Bundesstraßen will remain being maintained by the states - with federal budget though.

There was some Fake News about _Die Autobahn _in the last weeks...


----------



## Bender

MichiH said:


> The Autobahn network has a length of 13,000 kilometer. That 75% are in "bad" or "very bad" condition... well... maybe they count single carriageways and it's 37% but still...


I have very little trust in these numbers. I suspect this is driven by self-serving "industry experts" looking to secure their jobs for the next 25 years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B480 Bad Wünnenberg, NRW*

The construction of the B480 bypass at Bad Wünnenberg has been delayed once again. They will open a brief segment tomorrow, but the bypass itself is delayed to spring 2022. Construction began in September 2013...

Location: OpenStreetMap






B480: Weiterer Teilabschnitt der Ortsumgehung von Bad Wünnenberg ist fertig | Straßen.NRW


Der Neubau der B480-Ortsumgehung von Bad Wünnenberg schreitet weiter voran. Am Dienstag (17.11.) wird im Laufe des Nachmittags ein weiteres Teilstück in Betrieb genommen.



www.strassen.nrw.de


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*B77 Kanaltunnel Rendsburg, SH*

The rehabilitation of the tunnel under the North Sea - Baltic Sea Canal of B77 in Rendsburg has spun dramatically out of control. It is delayed once again, pushing completion into 2021.





__





Es gibt noch viel zu tun


Die bauliche Grundinstandsetzung des Rendsburger Straßentunnels ist fertig. An der Erneuerung der kompletten Betriebs- und Verkehrstechnik einschließlich der dazugehörigen zentralen Steuerung wird kontinuierlich gearbeitet, jedoch wird sie nicht wie geplant Ende 2020 vollständig und vor allem...




www.kanaltunnel-rd.de





The construction originally started in August 2011 and was estimated to be completed by late 2013 at that time. They found out that the tunnel was in much worse condition than anticipated and much more work was required. We're now in 2020, 7 years after the original deadline, and the project is delayed once again due to complexities with the tunnel installations. 

Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## MichiH

tunnel owl said:


> Very complex text… Some main parts of A10-widening might be open soon but IIRC on other parts work didn´t started yet or is in an very early phase


It was announced that two sections should open now (11km + 5km), 3km by end of 2022 and another 11km long section should be widened from now to end of 2022. I didn't check whether the dates are still up-to-date.


----------



## tfd543

MichiH said:


> It was announced that two sections should open now (11km + 5km), 3km by end of 2022 and another 11km long section should be widened from now to end of 2022. I didn't check whether the dates are still up-to-date.


What about a24? They should be finished with the resurfacing. Some months ago one of carriageways was released while they began to asphalt the other.


----------



## MichiH

tfd543 said:


> What about a24? They should be finished with the resurfacing. Some months ago one of carriageways was released while they began to asphalt the other.


The project info says that construction works for section 2,4,7 and 9 should start now (late 2020 / early 2021). Section 1 and 3 should be completed by January 2021, Section 5 by October 2020

It seems that the info was not updated for a while. The site looks _modern and cool_ but the content is total crap 









HAVELLANDAUTOBAHN | SCHNELLER ANS ZIEL


SCHNELLER ANS ZIEL...




havellandautobahn.de


----------



## tfd543

MichiH said:


> The project info says that construction works for section 2,4,7 and 9 should start now (late 2020 / early 2021). Section 1 and 3 should be completed by January 2021, Section 5 by October 2020
> 
> It seems that the info was not updated for a while. The site looks _modern and cool_ but the content is total crap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAVELLANDAUTOBAHN | SCHNELLER ANS ZIEL
> 
> 
> SCHNELLER ANS ZIEL...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> havellandautobahn.de


Thnx


----------



## bogdymol

The Autobahn posted this nice picture today:


----------



## Ryme Intrinseca

ChrisZwolle said:


> Local governments are often under the illusion that their 5 times more expensive tunnel plan is a viable alternative.
> 
> The cheapest variant was € 150 million and the tunnel variants up to € 2.6 billion.


There was a similar situation in the UK where Sefton Council sought judicial review of the proposed A5036 Port of Liverpool access road on the basis that Highways England did not consult on a tunnelled option. A tunnel would have raised scheme costs from £250m to £1.5bn. The application for review was dismissed.

Scheme: A5036 Port of Liverpool access - Highways England
Judgment: https://cornerstonebarristers.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/ukt_2018_11_45994139.pdf


----------



## Eulanthe

Looking at Berlin now, I wonder: what was the original plan for the A100 in West Berlin? Was it always intended to stop at Gradestraße, or did they have plans to go further?


----------



## henmar

Eulanthe said:


> Looking at Berlin now, I wonder: what was the original plan for the A100 in West Berlin? Was it always intended to stop at Gradestraße, or did they have plans to go further?


The original plan from the mid-60s was conceived under the assumption the east/west seperation was just a short and temporary 'annoyance' that would be solved soon, so the plans just ignored the wall and iron curtain. It was always planned to continue to what is now "Dreieck Neukölln". You can see the old plans in old city maps from the 70s, for example at FALK Stadtplan Berlin 1:25.000 - 1:33.000 (Juni 1976 - Ausgabe 1977) - Landkartenarchiv.de


----------



## TM_Germany

Damn. They planned some crazy highways through Neukölln. Glad we were spared those.


----------



## MichiH

People have protested against the construction of A49. In front of the German embasyy in Vienna, Austria. Naked. "Forest instead of asphalt"

https://www.österreich.at/wien/wien-chronik/irrer-nackt-protest-vor-deutscher-botschaft-in-wien/456364355


----------



## MichiH

Some news from last week in short:

*9km A96 2x3 widening Oberpfaffenhausen - Germering* completed (west of Munich)








Freie Fahrt auf der A 96: Ausbau ist fast beendet - Verkehrsminister Scheuer zu Besuch


Flüsterasphalt, Lärmschutz und zwei Galerien: Das ist das Ergebnis des jahrelangen Ausbaus auf der A 96 zwischen Germering und Oberpfaffenhofen. Dieser ist nun so gut wie fertig.




www.merkur.de












OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





*4km B286 2x2 widening south of Schweinfur*t completed; costs of 35 million € only instead of estimated 45 million €




__





Fertigstellung nach nur zweieinhalb Jahren Bauzeit - Bayerisches Staatsministerium für Wohnen, Bau und Verkehr







www.stmb.bayern.de












OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





*2km A281 Bremen *(section 2/2) u/c now (202 million €); estimated completion: 2026




__





BMDV - Baubeginn für letzten Abschnitt der A 281







www.bmvi.de








__





A 281: Baubeginn für Abschnitt 2/2 zwischen Neuenlander Ring und Bremen-Kattenturm - Pressestelle des Senats







www.senatspressestelle.bremen.de












A 281: Baubeginn für Abschnitt 2/2 zwischen Neuenlander Ring und Bremen-Kattenturm


Nach dem symbolischen Spatenstich ist nun der letzte Abschnitt der A 281 in Bremen im Bau.




www.deges.de




























OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





*6.6km B8 Bad Camberg bypass* contracted; preliminary works start now, construction start in early 2021 as soon as weather allows, estimated costs raised from 41 million € (early 2017) to 90 million € now. Construction period of 7 years planned. Currently up to 12,500 vehicles/day on existing route through Bad Camberg.





B 8: Ortsumgehung Bad Camberg


Ausführungsplanung läuft an – Baubeginn Anfang 2021




mobil.hessen.de












OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## TM_Germany

It feels really unfamiliar to get so many good news in this thread 😅


----------



## SRC_100

I would like to present my feelings on german motorways network: no doubts that is something that Germans shoudl be proud, but what I would have beed suggested is make a decision to shortern of a much the deadline regarding costruction and reconstruction motorway`s sections. This can not last 6-10 years for one section!
Ok, one can say that Germany it`s no new EU (CE) country, where everything is easier (what is no true at all), but take a look on e.g. Austria or Netherlands, that`s the fucking answer... everythig is possible!


----------



## Des

MichiH said:


> Some news from last week in short:
> 
> *9km A96 2x3 widening Oberpfaffenhausen - Germering* completed (west of Munich)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Freie Fahrt auf der A 96: Ausbau ist fast beendet - Verkehrsminister Scheuer zu Besuch
> 
> 
> Flüsterasphalt, Lärmschutz und zwei Galerien: Das ist das Ergebnis des jahrelangen Ausbaus auf der A 96 zwischen Germering und Oberpfaffenhofen. Dieser ist nun so gut wie fertig.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.merkur.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openstreetmap.org


About time but sadly too late for my 10+ trips across this section this year. 

I really hope they do something about A8 Rosenheim-Salzburg soon, it still has many 2x2 sections without emergency lanes. Really hard to understand how one of the richest parts of Europe still has highway infrastructure from the 1930s.


----------



## MichiH

Des said:


> I really hope they do something about A8 Rosenheim-Salzburg soon, it still has many 2x2 sections without emergency lanes. Really hard to understand how one of the richest parts of Europe still has highway infrastructure from the 1930s.


The latest news is two weeks old. A petition against - "Stop the A8 monster - No destruction of Chiemgau"









Naturschützer reichen Petition gegen Ausbau der A8 ein


Bleiben Sie immer auf dem Laufenden. Mit den aktuellen Kurz-Meldungen von BR24. Alle Nachrichten im Überblick.




www.br.de





In general, there are a lot media articles against(!) the project.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> In general, there are a lot media articles against(!) the project.


That's because journalism and activism have often morphed into one thing. It gives a huge undue weight to activists, giving them a platform full of unfounded claims.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Exactly! A8 runs parallel to A94 and there was (or still is even it is already in service, see noise / speed limit discussion) a huge opposition *against *that Autobahn - and *against *A93 / B15n connecting both - for decades. Media is used to report about those Autobahn opponents.... there are rarely neutral reports or reports about the advantages of the projects by local / regional media.


----------



## bogdymol

MichiH said:


> The latest news is two weeks old. A petition against - "Stop the A8 monster - No destruction of Chiemgau"


I would close A8 between Rossenheim and Salzburg completely. Really. At least for a month.

And then ask the locals: if you want, we can get rid of A8 all entirely, and make it a green area/forest. If they really like nature that much, they would agree, wouldn't they?


----------



## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> People have protested against the construction of A49. In front of the German embasyy in Vienna, Austria. Naked. "Forest instead of asphalt"
> 
> https://www.österreich.at/wien/wien-chronik/irrer-nackt-protest-vor-deutscher-botschaft-in-wien/456364355


Why do Austrians think they get an opinion on roads in Germany?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's because journalism and activism have often morphed into one thing. It gives a huge undue weight to activists, giving them a platform full of unfounded claims.


What’s to stop people in favor of the project from playing the same game?


----------



## flapane

Few acquaintances in Sauerland will be happy of the news. I wonder if the widening of the carriage on the A44/445 crossing will see the light earlier than this extension. Hopefully yes.


----------



## mgk920

What is the prognosis on completing the A46 in that area?

Mike


----------



## MichiH

mgk920 said:


> What is the prognosis on completing the A46 in that area?


The completion for an extension* of A46 from Iserlohn to A445?

Best case: Anywhere down the road
Worst case: Never

*The western 7.6km are planned as 2x2 A46. The eastern 12.2km are planned as 2+1 B7. Estimated costs were 510 million € in 2014. The benefit-cost-relation was 3.1 back then. The whole project is still in an early planning phase. There is currently a "Bürgerdialog" process which means that private people are involved in the planning procedure and public is informed frequently. They hope that it is easier to get building permits this way after decades of standstill.





__





46sieben - Straßen.NRW


Das Gesamtprojekt von 19,8 Kilometern ist im Bundesverkehrswegeplan 2030 im vordringlichen Bedarf eingestuft, weil es unter anderem Engpässe beseitigt.



www.strassen.nrw.de








__





Dossier






bvwp-projekte.de













OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## MichiH

There is some trouble with expropriation for the Fehmarnbelt crossing. Two owners of properties in Fehmarn had challenged the expropriation but the court dismissed their complaints. Construction works can start (land survey and clearance). The property owners are _Scandlines Deutschland GmbH_ and _Scandlines Bordershop Puttgarden GmbH_.









Vorerst kein Baustopp im Fährhafen Puttgarden


Das Verwaltungsgericht Schleswig hat es heute abgelehnt, im Rahmen eines Eilverfahrens eine sogenannte Zwischenentscheidung zu erlassen, mit der erste Baumaßnahmen für die Feste Fehmarnbeltquerung im Bereich des Fährhafens Puttgarden verhindert werden sollten (Az. 12 B 10/21). Das hatten zwei...




www.schleswig-holstein.de


----------



## bogdymol

The current operators of the ferry line D-DK and the border shop. I guess they are not particularly happy with the project, as their business will be over once the tunnel opens.


----------



## MichiH

flapane said:


> I wonder if the widening of the carriage on the A44/445 crossing will see the light earlier than this extension. Hopefully yes.


What do you mean?
2x3 widening A44 AK Dortmund/Unna (A1) - Unna-East? --> best case: construction works start in 2021 (plan approval order was passed in September 2020)
2x3 widening A44 AK Unna-East - AK Werl (A445)? --> best case: construction works start in 2030 (because it is further demand with planning rights)

A445 construction works might also start in 2021 - best case - I hope they won't wait for 2030


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

@Scandlines:

Well, bad luck for them. Until now they had a monopoly on the D-DK crossing business with practically guaranteed profits.

Life goes on. They will have to find another crossing in European waters where a bridge or a tunnel isnt possible.


----------



## Grotlaufen

bogdymol said:


> The current operators of the ferry line D-DK and the border shop. I guess they are not particularly happy with the project, as their business will be over once the tunnel opens.


As Scandlines itself is owned by a British hedge fund (3i) I guess they are happy to not take German-Scandinavian traffic into consideration. 
They still operate the Gedser-Rostock route though.



Deadeye Reloaded said:


> @Scandlines:
> 
> Well, bad luck for them. Until now they had a monopoly on the D-DK crossing business with practically guaranteed profits.
> 
> Life goes on. They will have to find another crossing in European waters where a bridge or a tunnel isnt possible.


Originally both the Danish and the German states (actually their national railway companies DSB and DB) each owned half of what later became Scandlines when Lolland-Fehmarn opened in 1963. The Germans sold their share in the 1990's, the Danes sold their part in 2007 just a year before signing the treaty to build the route in 2008. Had the Danish state been a tad more foresighted they could have avoided some years of legal challenges IMO and kept their ownership as Scandlines is the only vested interest in the region with enough resources to challenge the project the way they did (not to denigrate German NABU, but with their ownership Scandlines has a more considerable backing). With a Danish state ownership intact they could have blocked all legal challenges of their part.


I really hope we won't see a repeat of what happened to Malmo - Copenhagen prior to the opening of the Öresund bridge in 2000: In November 1999 the ferry route Limhamn - Dragor closed, citing the coming low season in the Winter , which for travellers with any motorised vehicle for some seven months meant a detour of 100-150km as the only route left to cross Öresund was Elsinore - Helsingborg, with the exception of a much smaller pedestrian ferry service (_Flyvebådene_). If you close Fehmarn-Lolland, then the option left to reach eastern Denmark from German mainland will be through Gedser-Rostock which is a ferry route Scandlines also operate and have invested in new ships in the last years...


----------



## Ingenioren

Scandlines taking 100(!) euro for a crossing of 45minutes, ridiculous. They will not be missed.


----------



## mgk920

MichiH said:


> The completion for an extension* of A46 from Iserlohn to A445?
> 
> Best case: Anywhere down the road
> Worst case: Never
> 
> *The western 7.6km are planned as 2x2 A46. The eastern 12.2km are planned as 2+1 B7. Estimated costs were 510 million € in 2014. The benefit-cost-relation was 3.1 back then. The whole project is still in an early planning phase. There is currently a "Bürgerdialog" process which means that private people are involved in the planning procedure and public is informed frequently. They hope that it is easier to get building permits this way after decades of standstill.


Thanks.

Also, can I safely assume that any farther extension from the east end of the A46 at the B480 near Olsberg is on 'indefinite hold'?

Mike


----------



## flapane

MichiH said:


> 2x3 widening A44 AK Unna-East - AK Werl (A445)? --> best case: construction works start in 2030 (because it is further demand with planning rights)


^^
Oh well...
I guess there will be queues still for a while then


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A36 / A39 Kreuz Braunschweig-Süd*

Temporary bridges have been installed this weekend at the Braunschweig-Süd Interchange (A36/A39). The current bridges are in poor condition and need to be demolished. 

Location: OpenStreetMap




























Photos: _Die Autobahn_


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## MichiH

mgk920 said:


> Also, can I safely assume that any farther extension from the east end of the A46 at the B480 near Olsberg is on 'indefinite hold'?


A 2+1 bypass of Bad Wünnenberg is u/c and more or less the rest from Olsberg to Bad Wünneberg is planned to get a new 2+1 realignment. Very slow planning progress though - as usual. The next section is 11km long from the end of A46 to Brilon. The estimated AADT is only 10,000 vehicles/day. Too less for a motorway.





__





Dossier






bvwp-projekte.de












OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





The next section north of Brilon (Alme bypass) has an estimated AADT of 5,000 vehicles/day only.





__





Dossier






bvwp-projekte.de












OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


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## Eulanthe

Ingenioren said:


> Scandlines taking 100(!) euro for a crossing of 45minutes, ridiculous. They will not be missed.


They were and are a dreadful monopoly on those crossings. But I wouldn't expect the toll for the new Fehmarnbelt crossing to be less than 70-80 Euro/one way, based on the current 54 Euro price for the Oserundbron.


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## ChrisZwolle

The 2014 financial assessment assumed a toll of € 65 one way. So € 70 - 80 may be a right guess by the time the tunnel opens.

However the Øresund Bridge has much lower tolls for commuters and other frequent users, a scheme that won't work at the Fehmarnbelt Tunnel due to the absence of commuters and nearby cities. It's geared to long-distance traffic.


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## flapane

MichiH said:


> The next section is 11km long from the end of A46 to Brilon. The estimated AADT is only 10,000 vehicles/day. Too less for a motorway.
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> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
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> www.openstreetmap.org


From my experience there's scarcely any traffic after Meschede even during rush hour, hence the average speed is also quite high.


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## mgk920

MichiH said:


> A 2+1 bypass of Bad Wünnenberg is u/c and more or less the rest from Olsberg to Bad Wünneberg is planned to get a new 2+1 realignment. Very slow planning progress though - as usual. The next section is 11km long from the end of A46 to Brilon. The estimated AADT is only 10,000 vehicles/day. Too less for a motorway.
> 
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> www.openstreetmap.org


That's fascinating. I was under the impression that the (A46) was to roughly follow the B7 towards Warburg instead of the B480 to feed into the A33.

Thanx!

Mike


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## ChrisZwolle

A ferry connection was reinstated today between Cuxhaven and Brunsbüttel in Northern Germany. It crosses the Elbe. This ferry connection went bankrupt numerous times, but they are trying it again:






Nachrichten aus Schleswig-Holstein







www.ndr.de





The ferry route crosses 25 kilometers across the mouth of the Elbe. The ferry takes 1 hour and sails every 3 hours on workdays. 






elbferry | Ahoi | elbferry







elbferry.com





Prices seem to start at € 25 for a car + 1 person, one-way.


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## MichiH

mgk920 said:


> That's fascinating. I was under the impression that the (A46) was to roughly follow the B7 towards Warburg instead of the B480 to feed into the A33.


It was planned to cross the A44 east of Wünnenberg and bypass Kassel to the north.








http://autobahnatlas-online.de/PlanungBauKarteMitAS.pdf

The yellow segment south of Hamm is the new A445 section with building permits. The yellow segment south of Menden is the planned A46 extension followed by the 2+1 B7 (on former A46 alignment which you can see on the map)


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## Ingenioren

Does anyone know the status of the Rendsburg railway bridge/ferry thing? Is it back or not?


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## Attus

Schule04 said:


> small section of A4 at the border to the Netherlands (not sure where this is supposed to be)


The text writes about a section of "several hundred meters" at the border crossing, which is part of A4 (D) and A76 (NL). I suppose it should be the border crossing itself, and perhaps the last 1-200 meters in the German side. Irrelevant, in my opinion.


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## ChrisZwolle

*A43 Emschertalbrücke, Herne*

A static test has been performed today on the A43 bridge across the Emscher River in Herne (Ruhr Area). The results will be known in late June.


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## Bender

6 weeks for that?


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## ChrisZwolle

They would need to model all that information. That could take some time.

We had a similar incident in 2016 in the Netherlands, a poor connection was found during an inspection of the Merwede Bridge of A27 near Gorinchem.

In this case, the timeline from data retrieval and completion of the computer modeling was 5 hours. The constructor recieved the data at 19:00 hours and called the asset manager at 23:55 hours to shut the bridge down to trucks immediately. Apparently being a computer model bridge engineer is not a 9-5 job.


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## MichiH

A carriageway of the *A81 Hegau rest area* will get a solar panel (10x17m, 5.5m above the road). The pilot project will start this fall and last one year. Goal: Demonstrate that it can be operated economically.

Demonstration only:









Exact location:













__





BMDV - Ortstermin an der A 81: "Solardach über der Autobahn"







www.bmvi.de












OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


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## MichiH

6km of B52 north of Trier b/n rest area "Dicke Buche" and A602 Trier-Ehrang i/c will be (or have been?) *rededicated to A64(a)*. The state of Rhineland-Palatinate has requested the change in 2020 because the new federal _Die Autobahn_ road authority is responsible for Autobahn since 2021-01-01. The federal ministry has recently approved the change. OSM has already applied the change.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org













Aktuell: B 52 zwischen Trier-Ehrang und Dicke Buche wird zur A 64a


Das Autobahnbestandsnetz der Niederlassung West der Autobahn GmbH wächst um weitere sechs Kilometer.




www.autobahn.de


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## Attus

MichiH said:


> 6km of B52 north of Trier b/n rest area "Dicke Buche" and A602 Trier-Ehrang i/c will be (or have been?) *rededicated to A64(a)*. The state of Rhineland-Palatinate has requested the change in 2020 because the new federal _Die Autobahn_ road authority is responsible for Autobahn since 2021-01-01. The federal ministry has recently approved the change. OSM has already applied the change.


So, one new section that is offcially a motorway, but is not motorway-like. I drove there several times and the only reason I din't it recently is Covid. I know that section very well (I'm not 100% sure but I suppose it looks the very same like two years ago). That section has no shoulder at all, onle 2+2 quite narrow lanes, and the first part has only a sinlge carriegeway, i.e., the directions are not physically separated. 
B52 connected A602 to A64, so that A64 had no connection to any other motorway in Germany, driving from German motorway network through A64 to Luxembourg was only possible through that section of B52 (or through secondary roads, of course).


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## ChrisZwolle

That solar roof: a 'nothingburger'. Render shows a small structure over one carriageway of the motorway, but the real project is an even smaller roof over just a small connector road on a rest area. This is hardly newsworthy, but I've seen BMVI & minister Scheuer going full eco-mode to fend off the Green Party. If you follow BMVI or Scheuer on Twitter it's all about trains, bicycles, electric vehicles and other eco things. The road network is hardly mentioned despite carrying the vast majority of travel.


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## MichiH

Attus said:


> So, one new section that is offcially a motorway, but is not motorway-like. I drove there several times and the only reason I din't it recently is Covid. I know that section very well (I'm not 100% sure but I suppose it looks the very same like two years ago). That section has no shoulder at all, onle 2+2 quite narrow lanes, and the first part has only a sinlge carriegeway, i.e., the directions are not physically separated.


I also think that it is still narrow 2x2 without median. August 2019 mapillary shows yellow markings. Not sure whether anything changed in the last two years.

I think that it will be dedicated with A but not signed as motorway. Just like the 2-laned A60 and A62 sections discussed a few weeks ago.


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## verreme

ChrisZwolle said:


> That solar roof: a 'nothingburger'. Render shows a small structure over one carriageway of the motorway, but the real project is an even smaller roof over just a small connector road on a rest area. This is hardly newsworthy, but I've seen BMVI & minister Scheuer going full eco-mode to fend off the Green Party. If you follow BMVI or Scheuer on Twitter it's all about trains, bicycles, electric vehicles and other eco things. The road network is hardly mentioned despite carrying the vast majority of travel.


I was thinking the same. Plus, the roof is very small. You need a much larger surface to generate a sizable amount of electricity, i.e., to charge several electric cars at the same time.


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## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos of the Talbrücke Nuttlar yesterday. It is part of A46, near the terminus at Olsberg. The bridge spans a whole valley. It is 115 meters high, making it the highest bridge in North-Rhine-Westphalia. It is 660 meters long and opened on 18 November 2019.


A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


A46 Talbrücke Nuttlar 08 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

A 7 kilometer realignment of B211 was inaugurated today near Brake in Northwest Germany. It replaces the old B211 between Mittelort and Brake. B211 is the primary route between Oldenburg and Bremerhaven and carries a substantial amount of trucks.

Location: OpenStreetMap










Part of the road already opened in December 2020:


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## ChrisZwolle

The regional newspaper SHZ reports that the legal battle for the B207 four lane expansion in Northern Germany is almost done. This project entails the widening of B207 to a four lane highway from Heiligenhafen to Puttgarden, where it will feed into the under construction Fehmarn Belt Tunnel to Denmark. However the project does not include the future bridge or tunnel at the Fehmarnsund (the strait between Fehmarn and the German mainland).

A few complaints remain outstanding: an action group fears problems during construction and Scandlines has appealed because it doesn't like the way the B207 will feed into the tunnel, as they fear it would lead people to bypass their ferry service in favor of the tunnel.









Autobahnbau auf Fehmarn rückt näher | SHZ


Autobahnbau auf Fehmarn rückt näher: Naturschutzbund Nabu zieht Klage zurück – dennoch wird nun vor dem Oberverwaltungsgericht Schleswig verhandelt.




www.shz.de


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## ChrisZwolle

The draft plan approval has been published for the widening of A45 between Dortmund and Hagen (Westhofener Kreuz to Kreuz Hagen). This is a 9.3 kilometer segment. The largest bridge is the Lennetal Bridge, which is currently being replaced (nearly finished) and already built for six lanes.

The most significant change is a 2-lane flyover for Bremen to Frankfurt traffic at the Westhofener Kreuz (A1/A45)









Einleitung des Planfeststellungsverfahrens zum 6-streifigen Ausbau der A45 Hagen/Westhofen


Straßen- und Wegeangelegenheiten gem. § 17 FStrG i.V.m den §§ 72 ff. VwVfG NRW




www.bra.nrw.de


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## ChrisZwolle

Some more Bundesstraße news from Northern Germany. The three lane expansion of B5 has started between Tönning and Husum. The first stage is a 5.7 kilometer segment between Tönning and Rothenspieker. This section will be built as a completely new road over the old road. There will be one new interchange. Construction will be completed in 2025, a relatively long project due to the soft soils in this area. The current B5 is a lower standard two-lane road with at-grade access. The new B5 will be grade-separated.

B5 is the extension of A23, it connects the west coast of Schleswig-Holstein to Hamburg. It is the most important north-south road in the far north of Germany after A7.









Bund und Land setzen Spatenstich für weiteren B 5-Ausbau bei Tönning


Buchholz: „Schub für besseren und sicheren Verkehr an der Westküste“




www.schleswig-holstein.de


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The regional newspaper SHZ reports that the legal battle for the B207 four lane expansion in Northern Germany is almost done. This project entails the widening of B207 to a four lane highway from Heiligenhafen to Puttgarden, where it will feed into the under construction Fehmarn Belt Tunnel to Denmark. However the project does not include the future bridge or tunnel at the Fehmarnsund (the strait between Fehmarn and the German mainland).
> 
> A few complaints remain outstanding: an action group fears problems during construction and Scandlines has appealed because it doesn't like the way the B207 will feed into the tunnel, as they fear it would lead people to bypass their ferry service in favor of the tunnel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autobahnbau auf Fehmarn rückt näher | SHZ
> 
> 
> Autobahnbau auf Fehmarn rückt näher: Naturschutzbund Nabu zieht Klage zurück – dennoch wird nun vor dem Oberverwaltungsgericht Schleswig verhandelt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.shz.de


There were eleven complainants. Eight complaints have already been withdrawn or dismissed at the beginning of 2020. The court hearings for two complaints took place this Monday but both parties - NABU (Nature and Biodiversity Conservation Union) and an action group "against a fixed Fehmarnbelt crossing" - withdrew their complaints because they reached a settlement out of court with the state of Schleswig-Holstein. There will be more nature conservation measures and there will be an improved drainage system during the construction phase.

The last unsolved complaint is from Scandlines. There is no court hearing scheduled yet.









Klageverzicht beim B207-Ausbau


Das Land hat sich mit dem NABU und dem Aktionsbündnis zum Ausbau der Fehmarbelt-Hinterlandanbindung geeinigt.




www.schleswig-holstein.de


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Scandlines has appealed because it doesn't like the way the B207 will feed into the tunnel, as they fear it would lead people to bypass their ferry service in favor of the tunnel.


There was another court hearing on Thursday June 3rd about a complaint from Scandlines against land expropriation at the tunnel entrance. The complaints have been *granted*!  The state of Schleswig-Holstein can enter an objection within two weeks at a higher court.









Teilerfolg bei Rechtsstreit um Fährhafen Puttgarden







www.schleswig-holstein.de





This administration act is *not* in combination to the court hearing about the complaints against the 2x2 B207 plan approval order but about the tunnel project itself. That means, there is still another unsolved complaint from Scandlines against B207....


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## Coccodrillo

ChrisZwolle said:


> A few complaints remain outstanding: an action group fears problems during construction and Scandlines has appealed because it doesn't like the way the B207 will feed into the tunnel, as they fear it would lead people to bypass their ferry service in favor of the tunnel.


Do they really think that their ferry service will survive? That's just a way to delay the demise of the ferries a little more. The only case I know where the fixed link didn't eliminate the ferries is the Dover-Calais route, likely because the Eurotunnel is a sort of a ferry itself from a road point of view (it is faster than ferries but not as much as the Fehmarnbeld tunnel is faster comapred to the ferries).

Yes, I see there is a small ferry near the Coen tunnel in Amsterdam, and certainly there are more similar cases, but these small ferries are for local traffic, not in direct competition with the fixed link.


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## MichiH

Coccodrillo said:


> Do they really think that their ferry service will survive? That's just a way to delay the demise of the ferries a little more.


That's the maximum they can reach and I understand that they try it because they might earn money with their business for another one or two years.

The other complainants can also reach something - like more nature conservation measures etc., see above - but they do very often only reach that the project is delayed which results in higher construction costs. However, if a change of government happens meanwhile, there might be a chance that the project will be canceled. A change of federal government could happen in Germany this fall... Greens were number one in the polls in early May (26% vs. 23% for CDU party) but lost a lot of supporters meanwhile.

Last poll published on Saturday: CDU/CSU (27%), Greens (20%), SPD (16%), FDP (13%), AFD (11%), Lefts (6%) Wahlumfragen zur Bundestagswahl 2021


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## ChrisZwolle

I think that Puttgarden - Rødbyhavn is the most profitable route for Scandlines. It has a decent amount of year-round traffic, no significant competition from alternate routes and the prices are pretty high. 

The high prices for the ferry are a reason I think why the proposed tolls for the Fehmarnbelt Tunnel have not caused much of a stir. The business case had a proposed toll of € 65, it might be over € 70 by the time the tunnels opens. Which would be by far the most expensive toll road in Europe (and probably the world). But the ferry is usually more expensive (and obviously takes more time to cross).


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## ChrisZwolle

A little late, but the renovation of the tunnel of B77 in Rendsburg was completed on 1 May. This tunnel goes under the North Sea - Baltic Sea Canal that cuts through the state of Schleswig-Holstein. It is a 640 meter long twin-tube, four lane immersed tunnel.





__





Im Straßentunnel Rendsburg heißt es: Freie Fahrt!
 






www.kanaltunnel-rd.de





This project has spun fully out of control and took 10 years, more than 7 years longer than originally planned. The renovation began in August 2011 with the anticipation that it would be completed in 2.5 years. It eventually took 10 years and a huge budget overrun of 3.6 times the original estimate. They found ever more problems with the tunnel during construction. 

There was only one tube in service during construction. This led to massive traffic problems in 2013 when the nearby A7 bridge had an emergency closure due to static defects. B77 and A7 are the only canal crossings in the region.

Location of the tunnel: OpenStreetMap

I took a photo of the tunnel in April 2011:

B77 Rendsburg tunnel Nord-Ostseekanal by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

Some more news from Northern Germany, the B212 bypass of Berne will be completely open to traffic tomorrow. Berne is a town located west of Bremen and the Weser River.

The new road bypasses the ribbon development along the original dike. The bypass is 9.9 kilometers long and was constructed over a period of 12 years. Construction began in July 2009. It opened in three stages between 2015 and 2021. This area has notoriously difficult soil, most projects (including nearby A281) took much longer than expected.

B212 serves regional traffic in the rural areas between Bremen and Oldenburg. There are no Weser River crossings in this area. B212 meets up with the newly built B211 near Brake which opened earlier this month.


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## ChrisZwolle

The widening of a 30 kilometer stretch of A1 in Niedersachsen / Lower Saxony has kicked into high gear, a 4+0 system has been introduced and construction is in full swing.

This is a 30 kilometer six lane widening between Lohne/Dinklage and Bramsche. It will expand the motorway in 4 years, with a scheduled completion in Q1 2025, which is considerably more mileage in 4 years than most expansion projects. That's because this is almost a PPP project but not quite. 

Construction will be done in four phases and five segments. Construction has now started on segment 1, 3 & 5 in the direction of Osnabrück. In early 2022 construction will also start on segments 2 and 4 in the same direction. This will then be switched to segments 1, 2, 4 and 5 in the direction of Bremen, to be completed by mid-2024. Segment 3 in the direction of Bremen will be completed at the end of the first quarter of 2025, completing the project.









Aktuell: A1: Ausbau nimmt Fahrt auf


Der Ausbau der A1 nimmt damit Fahrt auf. Die Autobahn Westfalen investiert rund 600 Millionen Euro, um 30 Kilometer Autobahn zwischen Lohne/Dinklage und Bramsche bis zum Frühjahr 2025 von vier auf sechs Fahrspuren auszubauen.




www.autobahn.de


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## ChrisZwolle

There is an interactive website where you can view the design of the A52 gap between Essen and Gladbeck: Project Atlas... loading

Kreuz Essen/Gladbeck (A2)









A 1.5 kilometer long tunnel is planned in Gladbeck


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## MichiH

The groundbreaking ceremony for the easternmost A94 section took place this week. The 13km section between Kirchham and Pocking (A3) should be completed by 2026 and the estimated costs are about 250 million €.





__





BMDV - Spatenstich für A-94-Bauabschnitt zwischen Kirchham und Pocking







www.bmvi.de













Spatenstich an der A94 für den Abschnitt Kirchham-Pocking


Sie soll einmal München und Passau verbinden – die Autobahn A94. Heute hat der Ausbau eines weiteren Teilstücks begonnen. Zwischen Pocking und Kirchham sind die Bagger angerollt.




www.br.de













OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


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## rugbyskier

MichiH said:


> The groundbreaking ceremony for the easternmost A94 section took place this week. The 13km section between Kirchham and Pocking (A3) should be completed by 2026 and the estimated costs are about 250 million €.


Looking at the map it looks like the only work that will need to be done for the A94 following this project is duplicating the B12 on its existing alignment from the Burghausen exit to Simbach am Inn and then a new autobahn alignment from Simbach to Malching.


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## stickedy

That "only work" will take another 10 to 15 years till it's finished  Look at this project now: Around 16 km of motorway on plain ground. No major earthwork, bridges or even tunnels necessary. 5 years for construction. It's a shame


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## MichiH

stickedy said:


> That "only work" will take another 10 to 15 years till it's finished


I don't think so. There is a huge opposition in Simbach. 15 years are too optimistic!



https://www.autobahn.de/fileadmin/Autobahn_GmbH/Suedbayern/Projekte/A_94/A94_UEbersichtskarte-Gesamtprojekt.pdf



The planning for the section where "only" the 2nd carriageway must be added is most advanced (OSM). They "already" work on the preliminary design planning (Vorentwurf). Once this will be done, we will wait about 1-2 years till it will be approved by different ministries. Then, the plan approval procedure can be done. I think it will minimum last for 3 years. Tender, construction, another 4-5 years because of the "complex" River Inn bridge? I think that the completion of this section might be possible by 2030 - but not likely.

The other two sections (15km, OSM) are in earlier planning stages and much more difficult due to residents etc.


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## ChrisZwolle

There appears to be a major problem at the Salzbach Bridge of A66 in Wiesbaden. This bridge has been closed to all traffic this afternoon after some kind of defect, possibly a sag or settlement, has been detected. 

This bridge is already a problem, it's in the process of being replaced, which started in February 2017. However in January 2019 a contractor drilled too deep into the rebar, which compromised the stability of the bridge. This span was then put out of service. There has been only one lane in each direction, with a temporary reversible lane. The bridge has been a significant bottleneck since, it normally carries 80,000 vehicles per day.









Salzbachtalbrücke bei Wiesbaden wegen Schäden gesperrt - A66 und Züge betroffen


Rund um die Salzbachtalbrücke bei Wiesbaden geht derzeit nichts mehr: Aus Sicherheitsgründen wurde die Brücke am Freitag gesperrt. Das betrifft sowohl den Verkehr auf der A66 als auch die Züge zwischen Mainz und Wiesbaden. Schnelle Besserung ist nicht in Sicht.




www.hessenschau.de


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## ChrisZwolle

The damage to the Salzbach Bridge in Wiesbaden looks serious. I believe this is the south side of the bridge, the same one that the contractor accidentally drilled into and was then taken out of service permanently.


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## MichiH

So what, the bridge is almost 60 years old and was not designed for that kind of traffic (volume + weight),









Salzbachtalbrücke – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org


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## ChrisZwolle

Here's another photo, it appears that the bridge deck was shifted off the bearings? And look at the big cracks in the beams.


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## MichiH

It is reported that a person saw concrete ("Betonteile") falling town the bridge yesterday. That's why the bridge and the railway track under it were closed. Trains stop at Mainz main station instead of Wiesbaden main station now. The reconstruction of the 1963 bridge began in 2017 and the completion was already delayed by four years. The estimated completion date was 2026 (till yesterday). The bridge might be closed for weeks or months. No one knows so far.


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## Turf

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some more news from Northern Germany, the B212 bypass of Berne will be completely open to traffic tomorrow. Berne is a town located west of Bremen and the Weser River.
> 
> The new road bypasses the ribbon development along the original dike. The bypass is 9.9 kilometers long and was constructed over a period of 12 years. Construction began in July 2009. It opened in three stages between 2015 and 2021. This area has notoriously difficult soil, most projects (including nearby A281) took much longer than expected.
> 
> B212 serves regional traffic in the rural areas between Bremen and Oldenburg. There are no Weser River crossings in this area. B212 meets up with the newly built B211 near Brake which opened earlier this month.


No bridge connection indeed but there are a couple of ferries. I used to commute a day a week between Groningen and the shipbuilding activities around Blumenthal/Vegesack. From Oldenburg on we took the B roads and use the ferry to get a cross. Good this road is finally built to relieve traffic in the villages.


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## ChrisZwolle

The A66 Salzbach Bridge in Wiesbaden. I grabbed some footage from SWR.

You can see the left circle has a bearing between the pier and the deck. It is missing in the right circle.









A massive crack near the eastern abutment.









The bridge pier seems to be on an angle compared to the bridge pier behind it.









Big cracks throughout the concrete structure. The bridge pier looks like it has shifted substantially. Notice that the other pier behind it still has its bearings.









So far it is unclear what the damage is to the north side of the bridge, this was the part that still carried traffic of A66.

I wonder if they can reopen the railway underneath the bridge. This looks like it is still in danger of collapsing. It would be a big problem to have to wait until the bridge is demolished. The Wiesbaden Hauptbahnhof is a terminal station and almost all directions travel underneath this bridge, with the exception of the connection to the high-speed rail to the north and a regional railroad.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wiesbaden Hauptbahnhof is a terminal station and almost all directions travel underneath this bridge, with the exception of the connection to the high-speed rail to the north and a regional railroad.


Yes, at the moment there is no railway connection between Frankfurt and Wiesbaden Hbf, which is an important issue. Sunday morning it is not critical, but may cause heavy problems tomorrow.


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## geogregor

It looks like almighty mess. How could that happen? Surely someone has to plan and supervise those works.

All those emergency bridge closures is such a "German thing". I don't hear much about something similar happening regularly in France or the UK.


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## MattiG

geogregor said:


> It looks like almighty mess. How could that happen? Surely someone has to plan and supervise those works.
> 
> All those emergency bridge closures is such a "German thing". I don't hear much about something similar happening regularly in France or the UK.


The bridge was built in 1963, and it was planned based on AADT of 20,000. The current AADT is 80,000+.

What is quite unbelievable, is cutting the rebar by drilling while making additional structures to support the bridge.

The question of a "German thing" is valid. After the unification 30 years ago, people were smiling on the infrastructure of the ex-DDR. Now, the western part of the country seems to try to reach the same level. One reason for the mess is the strong position of the Länder in the federal state. Several problematic bridges cross an internal border, and the states at the ends do not always agree on the priorities and details. For example, the reconstruction of the Schiersteiner bridge between Wiesbaden and Mainz was delayed because the states of Rheinland-Pfalz and Hessen could not agree on the number of lanes. That was one of reason why the ownership of the motorways was moved in 2021 from the states to the new federal-level organization Autobahn GmbH.


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## geogregor

MattiG said:


> That was one of reason why the ownership of the motorways was moved in 2021 from the states to the new federal-level organization Autobahn GmbH.


That is interesting, I wasn't aware of that. I have seen term "Autobahn GmbH" used in some text recently but I thought it was much older and established organization.

So Autobahn GmbH is now something like Highways Agency in the UK?


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## flierfy

MattiG said:


> That was one of reason why the ownership of the motorways was moved in 2021 from the states to the new federal-level organization Autobahn GmbH.


Motorways have always been owned by the federal state. They were just administered by agencies controlled by each respective Land.


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## sven_engelen

*A40 Venlo - Duisburg - Essen - Dortmund*
The A40 runs straight through Duisburg, Essen and Bochum and if it's not the, it is one of the most important highways in the Rhein Ruhr metropole area. I recorded it from start to end from Venlo all the way to Dortmund.


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## Ni3lS

Ni3lS said:


> I was driving home yesterday and was surprised that the navigation didn't direct me via the usual route A3 Oberhausen > Cologne > Frankfurt but instead the A61 route crossing the border at Venlo. Via A44 and A4 it indeed directed me via the A555 and A565 and it was already congested (on a Sunday).


I filmed this detour:






The exit from A555 to A565 direction Koblenz was congested. I messed up and drove in the direction of Bonn instead. It was a whole thing and I should definitely just have queued up 😅


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## Attus

Since A61 is closed traffic flow on B266 around Rheinbach is significantly slower, in rush hour it's congested, but even outside rush hour slower than before. Obviously some cars take this route instead of the motorway. The route A555-A565 is heavily congested, especially the intersection AK Bonn Nord in both directions, and Ni3IS is not the only one looking for detours which are longer but significantly faster, through Bonn or Bornheim.


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## Attus

Reconstructing A61 around Swisttal:








Nach Flutkatastrophe: Rohre werden unter zerstörter A61 bei Swisttal verlegt


Teile der Autobahn 61 waren während der Flutkatastrophe im Juli komplett weggerissen worden. An einem betroffenen Abschnitt bei Swisttal wurden nun vier Kanalrohre unter der zukünftigen Fahrbahn verlegt.




rp-online.de


----------



## Cookiefabric

Has any "Zeitplan" been announced for the repair works of the BAB61?


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## ChrisZwolle

The second new span of the Lennetal Bridge of A45 near the city of Hagen was put into service today. This means that the bridge replacement is now mostly completed. They have to remove the construction zone configuration and mop up the finishing works, but the large-scale construction is now completed after 8 years of construction.









A 45: Lennetalbrücke bei Hagen ist fast fertig


Die neue Lennetalbrücke der A45 in Hagen kann seit der Nacht auf Freitag erstmals komplett befahren werden.




www1.wdr.de














Construction began in September 2013, with a scheduled completion in the first half of 2018. It is a 980 meter long bridge across the valley of the Lenne River. The project ran 3.5 years behind schedule. Most other bridge replacements on A45 are also behind schedule. 

Soon, construction will commence on the replacement of the Landeskroner Weiher Bridge, which is a 380 meter long span near the border of Hessen. The announced construction time is 5.5 years, which is longer but likely more realistic than the other bridge replacement projects which were often estimated at 2 years per bridge span, but almost always ran 1-2 years behind schedule.


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## Attus

Cookiefabric said:


> Has any "Zeitplan" been announced for the repair works of the BAB61?


No. They try to reconstruct it as fast as possible. It's expected to be ready to be opened late September, but it's only an expectation, and, actually, hope.


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## Attus

Directions are very poorly signposted on A61 northbound at AK Meckenheim. Many drivers think it's only the right lane that leads to Bonn/Cologne, and use that one, but actually two lanes run towards A565, direction Bonn. So the right lane is heavily congested, in the left one traffic is fowing slow but without stopping. 
Especially those driving to Rheinbach, Euskirchen, up to Erftstadt, them would be A565 a huge detour so they (we) drive to Meckenheim, Rheinbach, and so on. The road Meckenheim - Rheinbach and Rheinbach bypass are congested even outside rush hour.


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## MichiH

Attus said:


> Directions are very poorly signposted on A61 northbound at AK Meckenheim. Many drivers think it's only the right lane that leads to Bonn/Cologne, and use that one, but actually two lanes run towards A565, direction Bonn. So the right lane is heavily congested, in the left one traffic is fowing slow but without stopping.


It is a general problem all over Germany.... A dangerous situation on the right lane with stop and go only, and virtually free flow to the second turning lane


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## Ady

MichiH said:


> It is a general problem all over Germany.... A dangerous situation on the right lane with stop and go only, and virtually free flow to the second turning lane


Yes, the solution is to physically separate directions much earlier. In the Netherlands they started doing this on new/reconstructed highways long ago.


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## ChrisZwolle

The construction of the Auerberg Tunnel of B2 in the Bavarian Alps has officially commenced today. The completion year is 2028.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428353596798636049
It is one of several tunnels completed, under construction or planned in the Garmisch-Partenkirchen area.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The construction of the Auerberg Tunnel of B2 in the Bavarian Alps has officially commenced today. The completion year is 2028.


It was only the "symbolic groundbreaking ceremony". There are federal elections in four weeks....
Tunnel construction works will start in about 2.5 years.

Time schedule:








Projekt: B2neu: Eschenlohe - Oberau-Nord mit Auerbergtunnel


Der 4-streifige Neubau der B2 zwischen dem Autobahnende bei Eschenlohe und Oberau ist ein wichtiger Baustein in den Plänen, eine leistungsfähige Straßenverbindung vom Autobahnende der A95 nach Garmisch-Partenkirchen zu schaffen. Das Kernstück des 3,8 km langen Neubauabschnitts ist der neu zu...




www.autobahn.de


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> There are federal elections in four weeks....


If 2017 were any indication, you can count on a lot of road news over the next few weeks. Maybe even more 'fake groundbreakings'.

Is this a project by 'Die Autobahn'? Because this is a Bundesstraße.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Is this a project by 'Die Autobahn'? Because this is a Bundesstraße.


yep, because it was a project of the former ABDSB - one of the two Bavarian Autobahn autorities, now one out of ten federal Autobahn authorities - because there were so many (complexe tunnel) projects down there - too much for the local road authority 'Staatliches Bauamt Weilheim'. The Oberau bypass was also supervised by the ABDNB and is now supervised by the successor 'Die Autobahn'.

The situation is kinda weird having the "A64a" re-dedication near Trier in mind which happened earlier this year - see upthread. They changed the status of a B54 B52 section with non-motorway road standard to Autobahn status so that 'Die Autobahn' can maintain it. OTOH, the future B2 sections (Oberau and Auerberg) have more or less motorway standard, are the continuation of A95, the construction sites are supervised by 'Die Autobahn' but they still have B numbering


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## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> They changed the status of a B54 section with non-motorway road standard to Autobahn status so that 'Die Autobahn' can maintain it.


Where is that, near Münster or Siegen? Or maybe in Dortmund?


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Where is that, near Münster or Siegen? Or maybe in Dortmund?


No, typo. I meant B52:



MichiH said:


> 6km of B52 north of Trier b/n rest area "Dicke Buche" and A602 Trier-Ehrang i/c will be (or have been?) *rededicated to A64(a)*. The state of Rhineland-Palatinate has requested the change in 2020 because the new federal _Die Autobahn_ road authority is responsible for Autobahn since 2021-01-01. The federal ministry has recently approved the change. OSM has already applied the change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openstreetmap.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aktuell: B 52 zwischen Trier-Ehrang und Dicke Buche wird zur A 64a
> 
> 
> Das Autobahnbestandsnetz der Niederlassung West der Autobahn GmbH wächst um weitere sechs Kilometer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.autobahn.de


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## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> If 2017 were any indication, you can count on a lot of road news over the next few weeks. Maybe even more 'fake groundbreakings'.


A99 near München:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429689440180523015
Construction already began on 5 May: Aktuell: A99: Achtstreifiger Ausbau Aschheim/Ismaning – Kirchheim bei München

Now an official groundbreaking conveniently before the elections.


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## Corvinus

Any roadworks and related ceremonies most welcome in the loom of the green hype that will also show in the election results


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Now an official groundbreaking conveniently before the elections.


B304 Altenmarkt bypass opening ceremony took place last week. The road is in service since Nov 2020.
B180 Aschersleben bypass groundbreaking ceremony took place in early August. Construction works already began in August 2020.
B111 Wolgast bypass groundbreaking starting shot* ceremony took recently place. 133 m € for 6.8km including a spectacular bridge.
B472 Bad Tölz northern bypass groundbreaking starting shot* ceremony took place last week.

*Press releases replaced the word "Spatenstich" (groundbreaking) by "Startschuss" (starting shot)


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## ChrisZwolle

The remaining 2 kilometers of the four lane bypass of Friedrichshafen opens to traffic today. B31 is the major east-west route along the north shore of the Bodensee (Lake Constance). Friedrichshafen is one of the major towns along it. This new part of the Friedrichshafen bypass has a higher standard than the older eastern half. The western half is built as a four lane expressway while the eastern half is a controlled-access two-lane road.









Verkehr rollt auf letztem Teilstück B31-Ortsumfahrung Friedrichshafen


Nach siebenjähriger Bauzeit ist der Waggershauser Tunnel bei Friedrichshafen (Bodenseekreis) am Dienstag für den Verkehr freigegeben worden. Damit ist die B31neu-Ortsumfahrung der Stadt fertig.




www.swr.de


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## ChrisZwolle

The newspaper_ Lübecker Nachrichten_ reports that the Scandlines appeal against the four lane expansion of B207 on the island of Fehmarn has been settled out of court. Scandlines has withdrawn its appeal, which means that nothing can stop the B207 expansion to the Fehmarnbelt Tunnel now.









Einigung mit Scandlines: Land kann neue B 207 auf Fehmarn bauen


Dem Bau der neuen B 207 zum geplanten Fehmarnbelttunnel steht nichts mehr im Wege. Nach einem langen juristischen Streit haben sich das Land Schleswig-Holstein und Scandlines jetzt auf einen Vergleich verständigt. Die Reederei zieht ihre Klage zurück. Noch nicht bekannt ist, wie der Fährbahnhof...




 www.ln-online.de








ChrisZwolle said:


> The regional newspaper SHZ reports that the legal battle for the B207 four lane expansion in Northern Germany is almost done. This project entails the widening of B207 to a four lane highway from Heiligenhafen to Puttgarden, where it will feed into the under construction Fehmarn Belt Tunnel to Denmark. However the project does not include the future bridge or tunnel at the Fehmarnsund (the strait between Fehmarn and the German mainland).
> 
> A few complaints remain outstanding: an action group fears problems during construction and Scandlines has appealed because it doesn't like the way the B207 will feed into the tunnel, as they fear it would lead people to bypass their ferry service in favor of the tunnel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Autobahnbau auf Fehmarn rückt näher | SHZ
> 
> 
> Autobahnbau auf Fehmarn rückt näher: Naturschutzbund Nabu zieht Klage zurück – dennoch wird nun vor dem Oberverwaltungsgericht Schleswig verhandelt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.shz.de


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## ChrisZwolle

Bochum, we have a problem.

A fire in a tire yard along A40 caused major damage to a retaining wall. The motorway will remain closed to eastbound traffic until at least late November 2021.

This section of A40 normally carries some 90,000 vehicles per day, half of which now has to be detoured. However A448 has recently opened to traffic so it can carry most of the traffic to Dortmund along the south side of Bochum. However there is still a big traffic jam at the Bochum-West interchange where traffic is detoured.


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## Ni3lS

Here is a video of the A45 I made a month ago. Count the _Baustellen_


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## CNGL

MichiH said:


> B180 Aschersleben bypass groundbreaking ceremony took place in early August. Construction works already began in August 2020.


Aschersleben. How a random German town somehow became sort of an obsession for me, it is explained by the fact a trucker who streams his travels on YouTube drives every so often near it (and sometimes through it). Thanks to him I know the local road between Welbsleben and Quenstedt is (or at least was earlier this month) closed due to works on the bypass, forcing him to drive through Aschersleben.

As a side note, just South of where the bypass is being built there is a food bus (yes, a food bus, not truck) that has become a landmark in that YT channel. It is known as the "Goulash Bus" since it sells that, one viewer even went there to try that.


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## panda80

The national route B4, through North Germany, from Braunschweig to Lüneburg, is an important connection between Braunschweig-Wolfsburg area and Hamburg. The motorway A39 is planned between Wolfsburg and Lüneburg on this corridor, but until then the B4 has to face a significant amount of traffic, with a relatively high truck share. Fortunately the road goes through just a few villages, the towns on the way, like Gifhorn or Uelzen, been bypassed. Drove the route mid-June, here is the full video:


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## MichiH

There was a groundbreaking ceremony for the construction of 31km A14 between Schwerin and Magdeburg.
It is the section from Lüderitz to Osterburg. 6km from Lüderitz to Stendal (B188) are announced to be opened in 2025. 25km from B188 to Osterburg in 2027. Estimated costs: 330 million €.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





The plan approval order for Wolmirstedt - Dahlenwarsleben in the very south is still challenged. Court decision by the end of the year.
The plan approval order for Osterburg - Seehausen is still challenged. No time schedule.

Pics and videos in the article below:








A14-Nordverlängerung: Proteste bei Startschuss für Autobahnumfahrung Stendal | MDR.DE


Begleitet von Protesten ist der Bau der A14-Nordverlängerung in die nächste Phase gegangen. Bundesverkehrsminister Scheuer hat am Morgen bei Rochau den Startschuss für die Autobahnumfahrung Stendal gegeben.




www.mdr.de


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## sven_engelen

The A445/A46 through the Sauerland mountain region is probably one of the most beautiful autobahns. A video of that autobahn right here:


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## ChrisZwolle

An upgrade of A8 at Ulm has been completed this weekend. They have built a new interchange Ulm-Nord and a brief collector system with the existing interchange Ulm-West (Exits 62a and 62b). A8 has also been expanded to six lanes through this set of interchanges, a distance of approximately 2 kilometers.









Baustelle auf A8: Abschnitt bei Ulm-West freigegeben


Aufatmen auf der A8: Die neue Doppel-Anschlussstelle Ulm-West/Ulm-Nord ist an diesem Wochenende für den Verkehr freigegeben worden - sechs Wochen früher, als geplant. Restarbeiten gibt es aber noch.




www.swr.de





@sven_engelen took these screenshots recently:


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## flapane

sven_engelen said:


> The A445/A46 through the Sauerland mountain region is probably one of the most beautiful autobahns. A video of that autobahn right here:


5:25, a known place where people usually brakes at full scale, which always wondered me as mostly they are locals and know the street and know that a tunnel is coming.


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## Attus

In the Cologne region many on ramps have had a ramp meter (an example in Google Maps). Actually the devices are still there but I haven't seen them working for years. Perhaps Michi has some information about it, I only have my experiences. I think they were useful, and they'd be very useful exactly these weeks. 
Since A1 and A61 in the region are closed, some routes are much more crowded than usually. A565 through Bonn is a lost case, no chance to do anything (congested Sunday noon, stop and go in rush hour). Intersection AD Köln Heumar is a critical point, I can't see many possibilities to make it better. 
However, there are two ciritcal points which shouldn't be hopeless. AS Köln-Rodenkirchen (A555, MAP) and AS Leverkusen-Zentrum (A3, MAP), both northbound. The situation is very similar: the right lane of the motorway is crowded, because many vehicles want to turn right at the next junction (AK Köln Süd and AK Leverkusen, respectively). Especially at Leverkusen the traffic turning right is much heavier than before, because of the closure of A1. And a heavy traffic flow tries weaving in. There is a heavy conflict that can't be solved, traffic comes to stop, the motorway is heavily congested. A delay of 15 minutes Sunday noon, without any accident or local traffic restriction! OK, the problem can not really be solved, restoring the original situation (only 3 lanes running through the intersection, and the ramp from Leverkusen gets a new lane) may have been useful, but simply let the ramp meter working, too, coul dbe useful. At Rodenkirchen (A555) I think, there isn't any, so it is not an easy solution there. However, there has existed the problem very long, not only since the July flood.


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## MichiH

Attus said:


> In the Cologne region many on ramps have had a ramp meter (an example in Google Maps). Actually the devices are still there but I haven't seen them working for years. Perhaps Michi has some information about it, I only have my experiences.


I don't know if nor why ramp meters are off on the Autobahns around Cologne. The German term is "Zuflussregelungsanlage" or "Pförtnerampel". You could google for specific info.


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## Vignole

Google Street View is uploading imagery outside major cities. Images were taken in 2008 though. So, do you think Germany will be fully covered?

A4: Google Maps


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## Attus

Vignole said:


> Google Street View is uploading imagery outside major cities. Images were taken in 2008 though. So, do you think Germany will be fully covered?


No. 
Never say never, but I don't expect Streetview being updated in Germany in the following years.


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## MichiH

July 2021:








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


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## ChrisZwolle

That's not official Street View, but a local guide. Sometimes they use that instead of regular Google Street View, I'm not sure why this is.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's not official Street View, but a local guide. Sometimes they use that instead of regular Google Street View, I'm not sure why this is.


Everyone can post such 360-degrees-images, here is one from me: 








Google Maps


Mit Google Maps lokale Anbieter suchen, Karten anzeigen und Routenpläne abrufen.




goo.gl




Google made some mistakes by rendering :-D


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## Vignole

Here they talk about it:

A new Google Street View update happened! – VirtualStreets.org 

Concerning Germany, they say:



> Germany also has new covered roads, surprisingly. It is mostly on autobahns with footage from 2008-2010 (like in the covered cities). Some regular roads and a few towns can also be viewed, without any blurred buildings. It is unknown if this is intended or a mistake from Google but it is possible that this is a test to gauge the reactions from Germans as Google does want to publish Street View there.


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## CNGL

Yes, I was surprised to see some new imagery on Autobahnen. I take that as a sign of things to come. I still haven't taken a virtual trip through Europe like I've done in the USA exactly because of the large gap that is Germany.


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## ChrisZwolle

NDR reports that the first new bridge of A20 across the collapsed section near Tribsees will open to traffic next week, on 22 September. 

A20 collapsed into a bog in October 2017 and was closed to traffic for a while. They built a temporary bridge which is now being replaced by a permanent bridge. The first of two spans is now completed. The entire project may be completed by late 2023. The estimated cost of the restoration ranges from € 180 million to € 200 million, which may be ten times the original construction cost in 2005.


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## TM_Germany

Wait, that was almost 4 years ago?! I still had it in my mind as "recently" 😯


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## ChrisZwolle

The truck at the Salzbach Bridge of A66 in Wiesbaden has been rescued:


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## M-NL

Talking about speed limits on the unlimited sections of the Autobahn remains a sensitive issue. German car magazine Auto, Motor und Sport has now published this article: NEUE IW-STUDIE ZU TEMPOLIMIT AUF AUTOBAHNEN Offenbar nur 2 Prozent mit über 160 km/h unterwegs
This study confirms my personal experiences on the Autobahn, that when you drive at about 160 km/h hardly anyone overtakes you anymore. The study claims that 77 percent of drivers drive at or below 130 km/h and just 2 percent drive at over 160 km/h.


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## ChrisZwolle

An Autobahn speed limit is more symbolic than an actual measure to reduce CO2 emissions.

If you look at CO2 emissions from traffic sources, a large proportion of traffic mileage is not on the Autobahn. I'm not sure about Germany, but vehicle kilometers traveled on the motorway system is typically under 50% and may even be under 35% of all vehicle kilometers traveled. In the Netherlands it is about 50%, I presume it is lower in nearly all other countries.

Then, a substantial portion of CO2 emissions on the Autobahn system is from truck traffic, which won't be affected by a 130 km/h speed limit. Then, as the article states, most traffic actually doesn't drive over 130 km/h, leaving only a very small portion of all vehicle kilometers at speeds well over 130 km/h, thus the effect a speed limit has on reducing CO2 emissions is negligible.


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## M-NL

I think safety should be the main reason for a limit. The main issue is not the speed itself, but speed differences. I don't know how to exactly enforce it, but a maximum speed difference of let's say 50 km/h between overtaking vehicles, would improve safety. That could reduce accidents like when a car at about 130 km/h tries to overtake an 85 km/h truck and gets hit by a car at 200+ km/h from behind. Many people also forget that on unlimited stretches of Autobahn there is another law in effect: When you are involved in an accident while driving at over 130 km/h you are always at least partially liable for the damage, regardless if it was your fault or not.


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## MichiH

Autobahns are still safer than rural roads. Lowering the speed limit for rural roads would be a bigger contribution to road safety. Or improving roads at black spots. Improving the traffic flow in towns would improve reduce the air pollution (including CO2 emissions) much more. However, politicians are favoring to lower the speed, e.g. general 30km/h urban speed limit.

It's more symbolic than any relevant improvement.


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## g.spinoza

M-NL said:


> Talking about speed limits on the unlimited sections of the Autobahn remains a sensitive issue. German car magazine Auto, Motor und Sport has now published this article: NEUE IW-STUDIE ZU TEMPOLIMIT AUF AUTOBAHNEN Offenbar nur 2 Prozent mit über 160 km/h unterwegs
> This study confirms my personal experiences on the Autobahn, that when you drive at about 160 km/h hardly anyone overtakes you anymore. The study claims that 77 percent of drivers drive at or below 130 km/h and just 2 percent drive at over 160 km/h.


My experience in one year of living in Germany (so rather limited) was different. When I lived there I was driving a 1.4 l diesel Peugeot 207, whose maximum speed was ~ 165. Overtaking at that speed, I constantly formed a queue of BMWs and Mercedes behind me, wanting to go faster...


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## Attus

It depends on where you live and drive. Here in Western Germany you have no chance to drive 160+, the motorways are congested, in rush hour 40 is rather typical than 140.


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## flapane

A46 in Sauerland, A44, parts of A1 and A2 the first that come to my mind, sometimes even despite plates indicating 120kph... you don't have to necessarily drive only around Köln.
The speed is on average higher than in other countries and you really have to pay attention while overtaking, because you never know who can suddenly come behind you.


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## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> My experience in one year of living in Germany (so rather limited) was different. When I lived there I was driving a 1.4 l diesel Peugeot 207, whose maximum speed was ~ 165. Overtaking at that speed, I constantly formed a queue of BMWs and Mercedes behind me, wanting to go faster...


I think that it has really changed in the last five years.....


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## Attus

flapane said:


> A46 in Sauerland, A44, parts of A1 and A2 the first that come to my mind, sometimes even despite plates indicating 120kph... you don't have to necessarily drive only around Köln.
> The speed is on average higher than in other countries and you really have to pay attention while overtaking, because you never know who can suddenly come behind you.


Yes, A46 in Sauerland, A1 south of Euskirchen, are almost empty. But it also means that only a small minority of car drivers drive there. Even if all of them drve 300, it's less than 2% of motorway traffic in NRW ;-)


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## ChrisZwolle

Southbound A61 has reopened this evening after the flooding of 14 July. The entire route opened to traffic from Kreuz Kerpen (A4) to Kreuz Meckenheim (A565). A61 northbound is not yet open.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440020700962689035


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## ChrisZwolle

I got to say that it has remained relatively quiet on the 'road openings before elections' front. There weren't that many, especially over the past two weeks.


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## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> I got to say that it has remained relatively quiet on the 'road openings before elections' front. There weren't that many, especially over the past two weeks.


If one of the most important parties says, no new roads may be built, then it may actually be contraproductive to open a new road before the elections. And the Green Party (Die Grünen) actually want to forbid to build any new roads, apart from some local ones.


----------



## MichiH

Germany has no tradition with opening roads before elections. It's more about (symbolic) groundbreaking ceremonies.

Opening a road "at the right time" would mean delaying an opening or open anything which is not yet complete. Both is _un-German_.


----------



## goschio

M-NL said:


> Talking about speed limits on the unlimited sections of the Autobahn remains a sensitive issue. German car magazine Auto, Motor und Sport has now published this article: NEUE IW-STUDIE ZU TEMPOLIMIT AUF AUTOBAHNEN Offenbar nur 2 Prozent mit über 160 km/h unterwegs
> This study confirms my personal experiences on the Autobahn, that when you drive at about 160 km/h hardly anyone overtakes you anymore. The study claims that 77 percent of drivers drive at or below 130 km/h and just 2 percent drive at over 160 km/h.


Electric cars would also benefit from a speed limit. Their batteries rapidly drain at higher speeds and Tesla drivers may feel less bad driving around with 120 or 130km/h. 

In the future, autonomous cars will probably also do better at a slower and more continuous traffic flow rather than in traffic with rapid accelerations and braking episodes.


----------



## Attus

A3 towards Cologne is closed again between intersection AK Bonn-Siegburg and Lohmar, traffic was diverted to the anyway overloaded A59 (A61 towards Cologne is closed, traffic is deiverted to A555 and A59). The intersection AD St. Augustin West was heavily congested even today (Sunday!) noon, stop and go for several kilomters from both directions, and A3 itself, too, was congested. Later today, at the weekend return rush hour, A59 was congested in whole length between Bonn and Cologne, the route A3 - A560 - A59 had a delay of over one hour.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The plan approval order for Wolmirstedt - Dahlenwarsleben in the very south is still challenged. Court decision by the end of the year.
> The plan approval order for Osterburg - Seehausen is still challenged. No time schedule.


The court hearing for A14 section Wolmirstedt - Dahlenwarsleben was scheduled for 2021-12-07. However, they found an agreement and the complaint was withdrawn. That means, we have the final building permit for the 11km long section just north of Magdeburg 


https://lvwa.sachsen-anhalt.de/fileadmin/Bibliothek/Politik_und_Verwaltung/LVWA/LVwA/Dokumente/startseite/48_A14_1.1._Baurecht.pdf











OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## SeñorGol

Hi! I'm looking for a specific stretch of Autobahn.

In 2008 we visited some cities in Germany. The main goal was Darmstadt because it's twinned with my hometown (Logroño), but I remember we also stayed in Düsseldorf because an uncle of mine used to live there. I'm trying to figure out the exact route so that I can do it again next year.

This particular stretch was a bridge over a river, followed by a steep uphill through a wooded area which many lorries struggled to climb and used the rightmost lane as a crawler lane. There was a lot of truck traffic, I remember even a roadside truck stop shortly after, so I'd say it was an international route, most probably an "A" autobahn (maybe an "E" route?), not a "gelbe" one. I remember this was kind of "old fashioned" for modern Autobahn standards, so it has probably been refurbished. I don't remember the bridge having any special design feature (such as cable-stayed or suspension bridges). As far as I remember, it wasn't a rural area, but an urban one.

I've been looking for brdges crossing the Rhine on Google Maps, though I'm not even sure it was the Rhine. Many bridges seem to have been / be under reconstruction. Unfortunately Street view isn't available, so I can't really tell whether or not they're the one I'm looking for.

I know this is a weird question but I hope you can help 🙃 Many thanks in advance!


----------



## M-NL

goschio said:


> Electric cars would also benefit from a speed limit. Their batteries rapidly drain at higher speeds and


The energy consumption of any road vehicle goes up with speed. That's basic physics. But because this effect is masked by engine rpm, engine load, engine characteristic and gearing this rise is less pronounced for combustion engines. The difference in drive efficiency over the rpm and load range can vary as much as 80 to 90 percent. Driving faster sometimes does not make fuel consumption go up, because the engine can run in a more efficient rpm range. For an electric motor it is simpler, the more torque it needs to produce, the more energy it needs to do that. Efficiency over the rpm and load range only varies by a few percent.


----------



## MattiG

M-NL said:


> The energy consumption of any road vehicle goes up with speed. That's basic physics. But because this effect is masked by engine rpm, engine load, engine characteristic and gearing this rise is less pronounced for combustion engines. The difference in drive efficiency over the rpm and load range can vary as much as 80 to 90 percent. Driving faster sometimes does not make fuel consumption go up, because the engine can run in a more efficient rpm range. For an electric motor it is simpler, the more torque it needs to produce, the more energy it needs to do that. Efficiency over the rpm and load range only varies by a few percent.


The main impact from the increased speed is the increased atmospheric drag. If we lived in a frictionless world, the same power (zero) would be needed to move an object at a constant speed regardless of the speed.

For cars running at high speeds, the dominating factor is the atmospheric drag. The power needed to compensate that force is directly proportional to the third power of the velocity. Thus, the power needed to overcome the atmospheric drag @120 kilometers per hour is 73 per cent more than @100 km/h. As the friction in a combustion engine and the gearbox is higher than in an electric motor, the atmospheric drag becomes a significant factor at lower speeds for EVs.


----------



## MichiH

SeñorGol said:


> Hi! I'm looking for a specific stretch of Autobahn.


A48 Koblenz



https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/50.4224/7.6261





SeñorGol said:


> Unfortunately Street view isn't available


You can use mapillary instead (press "play" to run the video):





__





Mapillary


Mapillary is the street-level imagery platform that scales and automates mapping using collaboration, cameras, and computer vision.




www.mapillary.com





Or this:


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> A48 Koblenz


Ahh, I drive there several times a year, the last time I was there was last Saturday, I know this place very well, but it did not get to this idea. Congratulations.


----------



## SeñorGol

MichiH said:


> A48 Koblenz
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/50.4224/7.6261
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can use mapillary instead (press "play" to run the video):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mapillary
> 
> 
> Mapillary is the street-level imagery platform that scales and automates mapping using collaboration, cameras, and computer vision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mapillary.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this:


Thanks a lot! That was it, exactly


----------



## MichiH

It was a no-brainer. The description was very good! "Darmstadt", "Düsseldorf" and "bridge over a river, followed by a steep uphill" --> A48 near Koblenz. The rest was just more details confirming the very fist thought.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Schierstein Bridge across the Rhine River between Mainz and Wiesbaden is being replaced. This project began in 2013, at that time it was scheduled for completion in 2019. The first new bridge span was completed in 2017, with a construction time of 4 years. According to that construction pace, the second span would've been completed in 2021, and 'late 2021' was the new deadline.

However they have now reported another delay, to early 2023, leading to a total construction time of nearly 10 years to replace this bridge.









Schiersteiner Brücke wird erst Anfang 2023 komplett fertig


Ende dieses Jahre sollte die neue Schiersteiner Brücke eigentlich wieder ganz für den Verkehr freigeben werden. Daraus wird nichts. Schuld ist laut Autobahn GmbH vor allem das Wetter.




www.hessenschau.de


----------



## sbondorf

MattiG said:


> The main impact from the increased speed is the increased atmospheric drag. If we lived in a frictionless world, the same power (zero) would be needed to move an object at a constant speed regardless of the speed.
> 
> For cars running at high speeds, the dominating factor is the atmospheric drag. The power needed to compensate that force is directly proportional to the third power of the velocity. Thus, the power needed to overcome the atmospheric drag @120 kilometers per hour is 73 per cent more than @100 km/h. As the friction in a combustion engine and the gearbox is higher than in an electric motor, the atmospheric drag becomes a significant factor at lower speeds for EVs.


Drag is generally proportional to the second power of the velocity, not the third. Your points are still valid, of course, yet a bit less drastic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The rest area Leubinger Fürstenhügel along A71 near Sömmerda has been officially inaugurated yesterday. It was already partially put into service on 30 March 2021.

It is one of the (very?) few T+R areas in Germany where both directions use the same facility.









A 71: Feierliche Gesamtinbetriebnahme der Tank- und Rastanlage Leubinger Fürstenhügel


Nach ihrer Gesamtfertigstellung kann die Anlage an der A 71 bei Sömmerda jetzt vollumfänglich genutzt werden.




www.deges.de














satellite image from April 2021


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An Elbe River Tunnel in Hamburg without traffic. It's closed this night to update the software of the tunnel systems.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

sbondorf said:


> Drag is generally proportional to the second power of the velocity, not the third. Your points are still valid, of course, yet a bit less drastic.


Drag force (and hence energy spent per lenght to counter it) is proportional to velocity squared if the flow is fully turbulent, and proportional to velocity for laminar flow. For a car at high speed the flow is normally turbulent. However, Matti specifically wrote drag power, not drag force or energy, which gives you that extra velocity factor. Hence, he was strictly speaking correct, although energy, not power, is normally the limiting factor for electric cars.

In non-technical Norwegian, the word for force is often used when we mean power or energy, e. g. we talk about horse "force" or exporting electrical "force". I think the terminology was established way back during the very long period when German was dominating in technical literature, if not before.


----------



## MattiG

sbondorf said:


> Drag is generally proportional to the second power of the velocity, not the third. Your points are still valid, of course, yet a bit less drastic.


The third power comes from P=Fv where F represents the drag.


----------



## Attus

Big accident on A1 near Cologne in Lövenich tunnel.








Köln: Unfall auf der A1 – Mehrere Verletzte


Köln – Bei einem Verkehrsunfall auf der Autobahn 1 sind am Dienstagmorgen drei Autofahrer verletzt worden. Wie ein Sprecher der Kölner Polizei bestätigte, kollidierten insgesamt sechs Fahrzeuge gegen 9.50 Uhr bei Lövenich. Am späten Nachmittag wurd...




mobil.ksta.de


----------



## Attus

Several bombs from WW2 are found in the Rhine-Ruhr area yearly. Because of one found today at Cologne, A4 had to be closed.








Köln-Rondorf: Fünf Bomben erfolgreich entschärft – Sperrung der A4 aufgehoben


Köln-Rondorf – In Köln-Rondorf sind am Dienstagvormittag fünf Bombenblindgänger aus dem Zweiten Weltkrieg gefunden worden. Wie die Stadt Köln mitteilt, wurden die Fliegerbomben bei Sondierungsarbeiten im Erschließungsgebiet entdeckt. Alle fünf Bomb...




www.ksta.de




Quite a chaotic day...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some local road news, a bridge on L119 near Rheinbach has been restored after it partially collapsed during the July 14 floods.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447892649130840069


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some local road news, a bridge on L119 near Rheinbach has been restored after it partially collapsed during the July 14 floods.


It's a secondary road that basically serves the traffic of the nearby villages (MAP). Orbach is a small creek you can usually jump over it without being wet. That night it destroyed dozens of houses and that bridge as well.


----------



## CNGL

I've noticed B6 now has a gap from Bad Harzburg to Halle (Saale), some resulting from the upgrade of a _Gelbe Autobahn _that was actually one in everything but name and signage (A36, which follows the B6 route to Aschersleben). However, there's a section of (new) B6 East of AK Bernburg that doesn't align with the historical routing at the East end. I've read there are plans to extend from A9 to Bad Düben, and I wonder what they would do should that section get built (in the 22nd Century at the best ). I see they could overlap B6 on B107 back to its original route, but in that case the section between Halle and Altenbach would need to be renumbered (likely downgraded).


----------



## henmar

The parties currently in negotiations about the next government (SPD, FDP, Greens) just announced there will be no general speed limit on Autobahnen in the next 4 years.


----------



## Ni3lS

Thank goodness.


----------



## Corvinus

henmar said:


> The parties currently in negotiations about the next government (SPD, FDP, Greens) just announced there will be no general speed limit on Autobahnen in the next 4 years.


Yes, I've read the _Sondierungspapier_ issued by these parties regarding their coalition programme. Apparently, FDP thank God succeeded in preventing the blanket speed limit, as well as a number of other red/green nonsense that was in the pipeline.
Given how furiously the green party bigwigs were pushing for the general speed limit (raising the question if this party doesn't see more important issues to care about?), it is funny the _Sondierungspapier_ only casually mentions "Ein generelles Tempolimit wird es nicht geben", in the form of a short incidental sentence, embedded in the middle of a flowing text, without any further explanation. Well, the explanation can only be it being blocked by FDP, but why would the greens embarrass themselves by explicitly stating it? 

It's far less funny though to reflect about the programme which would stand it red-green were enough to form a government without a third (non-leftist, non-green) party 🤢


----------



## Eulanthe

henmar said:


> The parties currently in negotiations about the next government (SPD, FDP, Greens) just announced there will be no general speed limit on Autobahnen in the next 4 years.


An easy concession for the SPD/Greens to make, really. The FDP will use it as an example of how they protected one of Germany's dearly held liberal principles, and the Greens will point at the move to electric cars to show why there's no need for a general speed limit.


----------



## g.spinoza

henmar said:


> The parties currently in negotiations about the next government (SPD, FDP, Greens) just announced there will be no general speed limit on Autobahnen in the next 4 years.





Ni3lS said:


> Thank goodness.


Is it really that important? Something over which elections are won or lost?


----------



## Ni3lS

g.spinoza said:


> Is it really that important? Something over which elections are won or lost?


Yes.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> Is it really that important? Something over which elections are won or lost?


NOPE!

btw, there are rumors ("secret list") that the next federal minister of transport could be a Green one. An infamous one about road construction....









Geheime Ministerliste: Bastelt Olaf Scholz an der Ampel-Koalition?


Die CDU warnt vor Rot-Rot-Grün, doch Olaf Scholz baut womöglich schon an der Ampelkoalition: In Berlin kursiert eine Liste mit Namen möglicher Minister. Ist sie echt?




www.kreiszeitung.de












Anton Hofreiter - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## g.spinoza

Ni3lS said:


> Yes.


Care to elaborate?


----------



## Attus

g.spinoza said:


> Is it really that important? Something over which elections are won or lost?


There is not any _single_ topic, that can decide if elections are win or lost. However, I think the general speed limit is one of them that influenced the elections heavily.


----------



## Ni3lS

g.spinoza said:


> Care to elaborate?


Yes to the 'is it really that important' part. Whether it played a huge role in the elections I don't know. I know it was always a topic on the surveys if you didn't know who to vote for. For me personally, if a speed limit were to be imposed on the Autobahn, it would have quite some consequences for my traveling time. 'Fun' is of secondary importance if you drive a capable car. The Autobahn network is already in a dire state as it is, to take away the 'golden edge' of it all would be a mistake in my opinion. I would have let my vote completely depend on this topic, if I hadn't been out of the country around election times. I could care less about all the other political bullshit that could affect me personally in a less prominent way. Everyone has their own priorities.


----------



## otternase

g.spinoza said:


> Is it really that important? Something over which elections are won or lost?


oddly enough yes.

Ever since the 1970s, when a general speed limit on Autobahn was first discussed and even shortly implemented, this has been a "hot" topic for the German motoring public and thus for elections. Between Nov 1973 and March 1974 there was a speed limit of 100km/h on German motorways because of the oil crises. But while the public accepted much more drastic measures during the oil crises such as "Sonntagsfahrverbot" (driving ban on Sundays), the speed limitation became a political issue right away.

I consider this to be odd because there have been a number of changes and new legislations effecting car owner and driver much more than a speed limit ever could, but which have met only very little opposition or protests.
For example fuel-tax roughly tripled in the last 30 years and the party favouring even higher taxes on fuel was quite successful in the last elections!
For example the implementation of "Umweltzonen" (low-emission-zones, where older cars were banned) rendered from one day to the next milions of perfectly fine cars worthless and many families were suddenly no longer allowed to take their own car to their own home, as these zones do not only cover the core city center but often even far outside suburbs!

Given how little protest driving bans and high taxes caused, I consider it to be very odd how important many voters consider the topic of speed limit on Autobahn. It almost seems like many people rather don't want to drive at all than drive a little bit slower...

Personally I would be fine with a speed limit, as long as fuel-tax is not raised and no new taxes are introduced and as long as it is guaranteed, that combustion engine cars are not restricted.


----------



## Attus

I personally would even support the idea of a general speed limit of 120 or 130. 
But for quite many people the lack of speed limit is feeled as part of their freedom, and a speed limit is or would be considered as a step towards dictatorship.


----------



## Ni3lS

Attus said:


> I personally would even support the idea of a general speed limit of 120 or 130.
> But for quite many people the lack of speed limit is feeled as part of their freedom, and a speed limit is or would be considered as a step towards dictatorship.


That would be too far for me, if a law can be justified and makes sense then there is no problem. I don't consider a speed limit to impede my freedom. There just isn't really much that speaks for it - both potential environmental and safety impacts have been debunked on numerous occasions. Look at the Netherlands for somewhat of a comparison. A speed limit is not going to fix stupid driving behavior. Safety problem number one on the Autobahn isn't speed, it's _Mittelspurschleicher. _And the fact that in the theory book for driving education in Germany this is condoned, is where it already goes wrong. Start at the source, left lane trains and insufficient distance are some of the main causes for accidents on the Autobahn.


----------



## Corvinus

Attus said:


> But for quite many people the lack of speed limit is feeled as part of their freedom, and a speed limit is or would be considered as a step towards dictatorship.


... or more likely, simply as an unnecessary restriction (as if there weren't enough in place already) in a motorway system that has been working fine for almost a century without a blanket speed limit (apart from the exceptions under Hitler, following the 1973 petroleum crisis, and in the former GDR).



Ni3lS said:


> Look at the Netherlands for somewhat of a comparison. A speed limit is not going to fix stupid driving behavior. Safety problem number one on the Autobahn isn't speed, it's _Mittelspurschleicher. _And the fact that in the theory book for driving education in Germany this is condoned, is where it already goes wrong.


This. And instead of NL, I could cite any former Eastern Bloc country as an example. _Mittelspurschleicher _are endemic on the three-lane section of Hungarian M7 for example. That said, this problem is notorious in Germany too. The stupid law explicitly allows continuous drive in the center lane if as much as "occasionally" there is a vehicle on the right one. This is then transmitted in driver's ed.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> There is not any _single_ topic, that can decide if elections are win or lost. However, I think the general speed limit is one of them that influenced the elections heavily.


I think that a single topic can decide elections in Germany, e.g. like Fukushima did. The speed limit was not a hot topic during the election campaign. It was clear which parties were in favor of a speed limit (SPD, Greens, Lefts) and which parties not.

The exploratory discussions ("Sondierungsgespräche") between SPD, Greens and FDP (Liberal party) are over and the parties agreed to start coalition negotiations ("Koalitionsverhandlungen") now. Virtually every news about the explorartory discussion result mentions the speed limit now, because it was one of the few "wins" for the FDP party.


----------



## Ni3lS

Video from a recent 'commute' coming back from the home country. I don't particularly enjoy driving on the Autobahn on Sundays in these weather conditions. Endless left lane trains and sudden braking, especially when it's pouring. One driver lost total control getting onto the Autobahn, crashing into the wall right next to us. Thankfully he/she didn't slide straight across the Autobahn and came to a stop in the emergency lane. Action around minute 12:00.


----------



## Cookiefabric

Rear wheel driving cars are in this kind of conditions not in favour. (bit wet surface and too much power to the real wheel = start of drift/donut)
Glad to see that the "impact" was small (Also due to fact that the car was on much lower speed)


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> Some local road news, a bridge on L119 near Rheinbach has been restored after it partially collapsed during the July 14 floods.


Pictures of today. Hard to believe, this bridge was destroyed in flood.
PXL_20211024_092246340 by Attila Németh, on Flickr
PXL_20211024_092354562 by Attila Németh, on Flickr
PXL_20211024_092602745 by Attila Németh, on Flickr
PXL_20211024_092421694 by Attila Németh, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ADAC reports that there are a staggering 900 construction zones simultaneously on the Autobahn system. That's one every 15 km on average.









ADAC meldet Autobahnbaustellen-Rekord in Deutschland: Aber wo sind die Arbeiter?


900 Autobahnbaustellen gibt es derzeit, auf einigen scheint ewig gewerkelt zu werden. Fragt sich nur: Wo bleiben die ganzen Arbeiter?




www.rtl.de


----------



## Ni3lS

Love how the bs statements come out to counter the facts. 'They must have been working under the bridge' or 'the asphalt is drying'. Maybe in 20% of the cases where you don't see any workers, in the remaining 80% there is simply nobody there. It's frustrating if this affects your daily commute. They just opened a new Baustelle on the A81 from Stuttgart to Heilbronn a month or 2 ago. My first question would be why since the asphalt is relatively new? I can't find any information about it. Of the 5 times I have driven past it since, I haven't seen any workers. Both during the week and on the weekend.


----------



## MichiH

Ni3lS said:


> They just opened a new Baustelle on the A81 from Stuttgart to Heilbronn a month or 2 ago. My first question would be why since the asphalt is relatively new? I can't find any information about it. Of the 5 times I have driven past it since, I haven't seen any workers. Both during the week and on the weekend.











130 Maßnahmen für den ÖPNV der Zukunft


Baden-Württemberg soll bis 2040 klimaneutral werden. Um dieses Ziel zu erreichen, sollen die Fahrgastzahlen im öffentlichen Verkehr bis 2030 verdoppelt werden. Dafür muss der ÖPNV massiven ausgebaut werden. Das Kabinett hat jetzt einen Strategieentwurf mit verschiedenen Maßnahmen beschlossen.




vm.baden-wuerttemberg.de





Is it one out of the 130 measures for _getting Baden-Württemberg climate-neutral_ by 2040? Doubling public transport usage is a goal by 2030. I think that it could either be reached by improving public transport or by (just wild guess) impeding individual transport


----------



## geogregor

Tests in Germany:


----------



## henmar

ChrisZwolle said:


> ADAC reports that there are a staggering 900 construction zones simultaneously on the Autobahn system. That's one every 15 km on average.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ADAC meldet Autobahnbaustellen-Rekord in Deutschland: Aber wo sind die Arbeiter?
> 
> 
> 900 Autobahnbaustellen gibt es derzeit, auf einigen scheint ewig gewerkelt zu werden. Fragt sich nur: Wo bleiben die ganzen Arbeiter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rtl.de


I think they counted each direction seperately, so the number is doubled and there are „only“ 450 of it.


----------



## CNGL

I have to check again, but I swear there are no _baustellen_ on A4 between Hönebach (the exit for Heringen (Werra)) and AK Erfurt, nor on A71 North of said _Kreuz_, nor on most of A36, nor on A14 between Plötzkau and AK Magdeburg. But there is one on the A2 Elbe bridge.

I was surprised a closed section on B180 between Mansfeld and Hettstedt reopened exactly as scheduled. I thought that was impossible in Germany.


----------



## M-NL

Ni3lS said:


> One driver lost total control getting onto the Autobahn, crashing into the wall right next to us. Thankfully he/she didn't slide straight across the Autobahn and came to a stop in the emergency lane. Action around minute 12:00.


I can't judge this specific entry ramp, but what surprises me in general is that a lot of Autobahns have pretty short entry and exit ramps and that there are often sharp 90 degree turns just before the entry ramp and directly after the exit ramp. If you leave the Autobahn you need to brake pretty brisk to make that turn and you have little distance on the entry ramp to match your speed with the main traffic. Probably a remnant of the past when there was less and slower traffic, but potentially dangerous nowadays, especially under slippery conditions. This also causes situations like heavy trucks entering the Autobahn at just 50 km/h to 60 km/h, just because of the short length of the entry ramp.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

M-NL said:


> Probably a remnant of the past when there was less and slower traffic


I suppose so, but this standard has unfortunately not been updated, maybe not since the 1950s or 1960s. For example getting up to highway speed on French ramps is almost never a problem. German motorways often have a combination of tight curves before merging, with a short acceleration lane as well. Not a problem for 200 HP cars but problematic for trucks.

I often see German cars going very slow on Dutch cloverleafs. They seem to expect a 40 km/h design speed while many can be driven at 60-70 km/h, which makes quite a difference in traffic fluidity.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A shuffle in North Rhine-Westphalia. Former prime minister Laschet has moved to the Bundestag, so the position of PM was open. Former transportation minister Hendrik Wüst took up the job. His successor is Ina Brandes, who is now the new transportation minister in NRW.

She actually has relevant experience, she worked for and later headed the engineering firm Sweco for a long time and has also spent time in a Dutch engineering firm (Grontmij).

Left: Ina Brandes, right: Hendrik Wüst









NRW has seen a relevant change in infrastructure management over the last few years. When the current cabinet took office in 2017, they wanted to adopt Dutch practices in road construction. They have increasingly implemented weekend closures instead of months long construction zones.


----------



## TM_Germany

I wonder how much that will matter now, since the Autobahn got federalized, though.


----------



## Attus

TM_Germany said:


> I wonder how much that will matter now, since the Autobahn got federalized, though.


I don't know the details of other regions (Bundesländer), but NRW has nowadays quite many weekend closures. Yes, large projects like widening of A1 north of Cologne (replacing the Rhine bridge included) may not be made in a weekend, not even in three consecutive ones, that projekt will take more than a decade. But they are actually many weekend closures. 
NRW has a very dense motorway network, especially in the Rhine-Ruhr area, which has a very high population density, so it's almost always possible to make detours in motorways, and in the weekends the motorways can carry "own" traffic AND diverted traffic. An Exception was A59 between Cologne and Bonn recently, which carried diverted traffic from A61 (closed after flood damages) and A3 (closed in weekends) and was heavily congested even Sunday afternoon.


----------



## MichiH

The *B427 Bad Bergzabern bypass* is currently "under construction". The new road will bypass the town in the south-west: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/49.0961/7.9755
The bypass has a length of 2.6km, thereof a 1.5km long tunnel.

The plan approval order was passed in February 2008. It was challenged but the appeals were rejected in February 2009.

Funding (62 million €) was assigned in July 2015.

The groundbreaking ceremony took place in March 2017. 13,500 vehicles/day were expected on the through road in 2020. The bypass should reduce the traffic volumes by 70%. The works for the tunnel were scheduled to begin in late 2019 / early 2020 back then. The completion of the complex project was scheduled for 2026.

The works for the tunnel officially started in September 2021 now. The estimated construction costs are 99 million € (+60% to 2015/17) now according to the latest press release.

Minimum, our trusty satellite view shows earthworks at both ends.


----------



## TM_Germany

Since the Autobahn got federalized, they have significantly upped their social media presence, Nowadays they often release very "artsy" looking videos like this one showing works on A100:


----------



## Corvinus

^^ Couldn't they clean up the ugly graffiti on the bridge's sides? Those sort of spoil it all (and the more if they were included on purpose).


----------



## TM_Germany

Graffiti is a huge problem in Germany generally and in Berlin in particular. Seems like the authorities have pretty much given up on removing it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

TM_Germany said:


> Since the Autobahn got federalized, they have significantly upped their social media presence, Nowadays they often release very "artsy" looking videos like this one showing works on A100:


I must say that this is a major improvement. Showing the public what they do with tax money, how it will improve your life and the economy, instead of seeing only negative publicity about delays, accidents and traffic jams. 

Press coverage about road infrastructure is often negative: it's about traffic congestion, accidents, noise, environmental problems, ideology, etc. Yet our whole economy cannot function without a good road network. Even the staunchest anti-road activist cannot live their life without road infrastructure and trucks delivering literally _everything. _The direct and indirect benefits of a good functioning road network are immeasurable. It's good that they show what they do and how they do it. 

Just today, _Die Autobahn Rheinland_ tweeted about a long weekend closure (one of two) that will resurface 7 kilometers of A61 in both directions. It is completed 5 hours ahead of schedule. This type of work used to take months of construction zones and traffic congestion. Kudos to them.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455171919565688834


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

A8 upgraded into 3 x 3 lanes between Hohenstatt and Ulm-West
23 km
280 Million euro




























*A8 bei Ulm: Festakt zur Verkehrsfreigabe nach sechsspurigem Ausbau*

A8 bei Ulm: Festakt zur Verkehrsfreigabe nach sechsspurigem Ausbau


----------



## sven_engelen

The A8 runs from Luxembourg to Austria. In this section I am showing the A8 between Karlsruhe, Stuttgart and the Albaufstieg.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The plans for Dreieck Funkturm in Berlin:


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

sven_engelen said:


> The A8 runs from Luxembourg to Austria. In this section I am showing the A8 between Karlsruhe, Stuttgart and the Albaufstieg.


They started with the upgrade of the Pforzheim section Enztalquerung from 2x2 to 2x3
lot of traffic jams expected there

05:05-06:01 from your video


----------



## sven_engelen

Looks like I was in time with filming the old situation then!


----------



## MichiH

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> *A8 bei Ulm: Festakt zur Verkehrsfreigabe nach sechsspurigem Ausbau*
> 
> A8 bei Ulm: Festakt zur Verkehrsfreigabe nach sechsspurigem Ausbau


Yep, the official inauguration ceremony was today. The last out of four sections is already 2x3 in service since 2nd weekend of September. I think it was reported here.
The works for the last 2.3km section (including a new exit) began in April 2017. The construction for the whole 23km widening project began in May 2012. Very impressive....

I think it was also reported that the next 2 sections just east of it (11.3km) will begin "soon" and take forever.... j/k.... Works for the 3km just west of AK Ulm/Elchingen should already been started with clearance but real works should begin in fall 2022 and be completed by 2025. Note: it is already 3-laned westbound... The remaining 8km should be widened afterwards. To be completed by the end of the decade (at best). Building permits are already available!

The section just west of the 23km which were inaugurated today is the realignment of the "Albaufstieg" with tunnels and viaducts (~7km). The plan approval order should be passed in 2022 and the section might be opened anytime in the future. They say 2032 at the earliest. We are kidding whether the section will have it's 100th anniversary in service in 2037....

Germany..... 🤮🤧🤮🤧🤮


----------



## Adrian.02

Are there any plans to finish the current gap in the A8 between B-W and Rheinland-Pfalz?

And another curiosity of mine:
Does Germany plan to build new motorway links with its neighbouring countries?(A new link to France would be quite useful, for example)


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

Adrian.02 said:


> Are there any plans to finish the current gap in the A8 between B-W and Rheinland-Pfalz?
> 
> And another curiosity of mine:
> Does Germany plan to build new motorways linking it to its neighbouring countries?(A new link with France would be quite useful, for example)


They have a protected area between Karlsruhe and Pirmasens and they will build no motorway there.
Instead they are upgrading the *Bundesstraße 10* between Pirmasens and Landau into a 2x2 expressway
Landau has a motorway connection with Karlsruhe via *A65*


----------



## verreme

I get it: building a 2x2 motorway is too harmful for the environment, so they will build a 2x2 motorway which is much less harmful because it has yellow signs.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

verreme said:


> I get it: building a 2x2 motorway is too harmful for the environment, so they will build a 2x2 motorway which is much less harmful because it has yellow signs.


B10 is an existing road with 2 and at some sections 3 lanes.
They will upgrade an existing road instead of bulldozing entire landscapes.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

btw...










*Trifels Castle* is also famous as the site where *Richard the Lionheart*, King of England was imprisoned after he was captured by Duke Leopold V of Austria near Vienna in December 1192 on his return from the Third Crusade. Handed over to Emperor Henry VI of Hohenstaufen, a period of three weeks of captivity at Trifels* from 31 March to 19 April 1193* is well documented. According to one legend, Richard was found by the trobador Blondel de Nesle, who reported the king's location to his friends; in fact, Richard's location was not a secret.


----------



## MichiH

verreme said:


> I get it: building a 2x2 motorway is too harmful for the environment, so they will build a 2x2 motorway which is much less harmful because it has yellow signs.


Exactly! Welcome to Germany!  There are many projects like this, especially in the south of Germany (B2, B9, B10, B12, B14, B15n, B16, B17, B20, B26n, B27, B28, B29, B30, B31, B33, B41, B45, B49, B50,....)


----------



## geogregor

MichiH said:


> Exactly! Welcome to Germany!  There are many projects like this, especially in the south of Germany (B2, B9, B10, B12, B14, B15n, B16, B17, B20, B26n, B27, B28, B29, B30, B31, B33, B41, B45, B49, B50,....)


It is standard practice in the UK too. People react allergically to anything with blue signs and word motorway attached to it. So they build something like A14 around Cambridge which is a motorway in anything but name


----------



## ChrisZwolle

geogregor said:


> which is a motorway in anything but name


I always wonder who gets fooled by this. Maybe only the politicians themselves?


----------



## verreme

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> B10 is an existing road with 2 and at some sections 3 lanes.
> They will upgrade an existing road instead of bulldozing entire landscapes.


Well, many Autobahnen (with blue signs!) were also built that way.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> I always wonder who gets fooled by this. Maybe only the politicians themselves?


The same tactics in Finland. It is easier to decide on an upgrage than on a motorway, even if the result is the same. The newest one is the stretch Mikkeli-Juva on the route 5. It looks like a motorway, but it is a grade separated 2+2 road without an access to the slow traffic. Some of those roads have been upgraded to a motorway later, in a silence.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

The Western section of *A8* ends at Pirmasens and becomes B10 ...
this is the B10 at Pirmasens.


----------



## Attus

Austrian motorways having an S-number is more or less the same trick.
Hungary is completely different, everyone there expects and demands very new full profile motorways, so you see exactly the contrary: expressways or even 2+2 roads with at grade intersections are called "rapid roads" in order to hide the differences between motorways and them, and they get a motorway-like road number.


----------



## stickedy

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> B10 is an existing road with 2 and at some sections 3 lanes.
> They will upgrade an existing road instead of bulldozing entire landscapes.


But this is just half of the truth!

Since "Kraftfahrstraße" (expressway) is banning slower vehicles and access is restricted also, they have to build a lot of new local roads around and parallel to the upgraded old road to serve the local and slow traffic. So basically it's really the same about the "bulldozing entire landscapes".


----------



## Ni3lS

MichiH said:


> Exactly! Welcome to Germany!  There are many projects like this, especially in the south of Germany (B2, B9, B10, B12, B14, B15n, B16, B17, B20, B26n, B27, B28, B29, B30, B31, B33, B41, B45, B49, B50,....)


Greenwashing strategy by the greens 🤡


----------



## MichiH

Ni3lS said:


> Greenwashing strategy by the greens 🤡


Nope. It started decades ago when Greens were not yet running any state. It was implemented by the "traditional parties" back then. Even existing(!) Autobahns were renamed from Axx to Bxx in 1980s, signs changed etc., not just projected Autobahns.


----------



## TM_Germany

There is a livestream of the demolition of the Salzbachtalbrücke in Wiesbaden:


----------



## ChrisZwolle




----------



## TM_Germany

^^
Here in a video:


----------



## chopint

^^^^^^^^^
i really don't get it - only two lanes per direction of travel. They now have a great chance to expand this section to three lanes and make a bridge with only two lanes - really pathetic. 
In particular that a section with three lanes begins two or three kilometers after the now damaged bridge and, with one small exception at Wiesbadener Kreuz, leads to Frankfurt on three lanes.


----------



## TM_Germany

You misunderstand. They will build one bridge first, which will carry both directions with four lanes in trafic total temporarily. Then they will build another bridge next to it and it will be 2x3 im total.


----------



## MichiH

TM_Germany said:


> You misunderstand. They will build one bridge first, which will carry both directions with four lanes in trafic total temporarily. Then they will build another bridge next to it and it will be 2x3 im total.


The bridge will have a width of 36m but it will be 2x2 for the time being till the neighboring road will have been widened to 2x3. This will not happen any time soon.

Sources:








Projekt: Projekt: A66 - Abriss und Neubau Salzbachtalbrücke


A66: Abriss und Neubau der Salzbachtalbrücke aufgrund von Schäden und Verkehrsbelastung. Berücksichtigung des sechsstreifigen Ausbaus. » Jetzt lesen




www.autobahn.de












Salzbachtalbrücke – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org





Edit: AADT 90,000 vehicles/day. Expected AADT 2030: 106,000 vehicles/day. The 2x3 widening has the highest priority in the demand plan (BVWP 2030) but planning procedures are quite slow - as usual, especially in Hesse.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The _Aachener Zeitung_ reports that the 12 year reconstruction of _Kreuz Aachen_ (A4/A44/A544) has been finished today. 

This complex interchange with 5 branches was rebuilt from 2009 to 2021, with a separate stage (A44 widening to Broichweiden) ongoing until late 2023. The weaving problems were addressed by grade-separation and pretty much every bridge was replaced (including unforeseen ones).

The original 2005 cost estimate of € 40 million rose to € 75 million early into construction and eventually came out to € 152 million.


















Autobahnkreuz Aachen: Wie aus 40 Millionen Euro Kosten am Kreuz 152 Millionen wurden


40 Millionen Euro Kosten, drei Jahre Bauzeit. Das sollte der Rahmen beim Umbau des Aachener Autobahnkreuzes sein. Zumindest meinte man das im Jahr 2005. 152 Millionen Euro und zwölf Jahre sind es geworden. Wie konnte es dazu kommen?




www.aachener-zeitung.de













Wie viel war’s?: Das Quiz zur Materialschlacht am Autobahnkreuz


Der Umbau eines Autobahnkreuzes ist eine Materialschlacht. Wie viele Kilometer Leitplanken sind am Ende eigentlich gebaut worden, wie viele Schilderbrücken und wie viele Ersatzbrücken? Rätseln Sie mit.




www.aachener-zeitung.de


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Who likes a Kreuz Aachen pie? 🍰


----------



## lampsakos21

About the B10 , they are are some chances that B10 will have a new route around Geislingen . The proposed design proposes also one tunnel . Unfortunately they will not expand the rest of B10 till Ulm , at least for the next decade (2030 )
Sources : B10-Streckenplan – B 10-NEU


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> The _Aachener Zeitung_ reports that the 12 year reconstruction of _Kreuz Aachen_ (A4/A44/A544) has been finished today.


How in the world can such a construction take 12 years? Rerouting a few ramps and building a few bridges.


----------



## Attus

MattiG said:


> How in the world can such a construction take 12 years? Rerouting a few ramps and building a few bridges.


I, too, find it weird. It's Germany, I had expected 20 years.


----------



## MichiH

lampsakos21 said:


> About the B10 , they are are some chances that B10 will have a new route around Geislingen . The proposed design proposes also one tunnel . Unfortunately they will not expand the rest of B10 till Ulm , at least for the next decade (2030 )
> Sources : B10-Streckenplan – B 10-NEU


Damn.... Why the hell are you talking about the project? Are you calling for another weird story? So, here it is (short version):

The B10 is 2x2 (motorway standard including hard shoulders) from Stuttgart to north of Giengen. It's reduced to one carriagway with 2+1 lanes on the last section around Giengen. B10 is planned to be realigned to bypass Kuchen and Geislingen. Planning procedures began in 2008. The estimated AADT for 2030 is 24,000 vehicles/day on the bypass of Kuchen. The state's road authority of Baden-Württemberg (led by the Green Minister of Transport and Green Prime Minister) planned a grade-separted junction "Geislingen-West" and sent the plans for approval to the Federal Government in 2018. The Federal Ministry of Transport (led by CSU party) dismissed the plan and demaned an at-grade junction back! The road authority changed the plans, see attached. They wanna complete the documents by 2022 and sent it to the Federal Government for approval. Once approved, they can start the plan approval procedure.

2018 version on page 9, 2021 version on page 10:


https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/fileadmin/RP-Internet/Stuttgart/Abteilung_4/Referat_44/_DocumentLibraries/Documents/44_B10_Geis_Buergerinfo_2021-06-14.pdf











Artikel - Regierungspräsidium Stuttgart


Regierungspräsidien Baden-Württemberg




rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de





New design of future junction "Geislingen-West" for AADT of 24,000 vehicles/day "on the main line from/to the right":











https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=14&lat=48.62567&lon=9.81514&layers=B000TF


(showing incorrect junction design but the route looks correct)


----------



## lampsakos21

MichiH said:


> Damn.... Why the hell are you talking about the project? Are you calling for another weird story? So, here it is (short version):
> 
> The B10 is 2x2 (motorway standard including hard shoulders) from Stuttgart to north of Giengen. It's reduced to one carriagway with 2+1 lanes on the last section around Giengen. B10 is planned to be realigned to bypass Kuchen and Geislingen. Planning procedures began in 2008. The estimated AADT for 2030 is 24,000 vehicles/day on the bypass of Kuchen. The state's road authority of Baden-Württemberg (led by the Green Minister of Transport and Green Prime Minister) planned a grade-separted junction "Geislingen-West" and sent the plans for approval to the Federal Government in 2018. The Federal Ministry of Transport (led by CSU party) dismissed the plan and demaned an at-grade junction back! The road authority changed the plans, see attached. They wanna complete the documents by 2022 and sent it to the Federal Government for approval. Once approved, they can start the plan approval procedure.
> 
> 2018 version on page 9, 2021 version on page 10:
> 
> 
> https://rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de/fileadmin/RP-Internet/Stuttgart/Abteilung_4/Referat_44/_DocumentLibraries/Documents/44_B10_Geis_Buergerinfo_2021-06-14.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Artikel - Regierungspräsidium Stuttgart
> 
> 
> Regierungspräsidien Baden-Württemberg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rp.baden-wuerttemberg.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New design of future junction "Geislingen-West" for AADT of 24,000 vehicles/day "on the main line from/to the right":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=14&lat=48.62567&lon=9.81514&layers=B000TF
> 
> 
> (showing incorrect junction design but the route looks correct)


yep . is a weird story but we will see how it will evolve  when i have passed from there few times , there was a lot of traffic. Some valleys around Stutgartt are being developed , urbanistically speaking more and more. Actually many nearby cities around Stuttgart has created some short or long urban tentacles . They are for many kms present clusters of cities that they have been fused . Those 2x2 roads around Stutgartt have helped a lot the trips of daily commuters and workers ( there also present many factories in the area ) so in the near future i wouldnt be surprised if there would be more 2x2 Bundestrasse in that area. I have a question though. Since the traffic is huge in that area and they have a "greenier" approach , why there is not an eastern ring road around Stutgartt?


----------



## MichiH

lampsakos21 said:


> Those 2x2 roads around Stutgartt have helped a lot the trips of daily commuters and workers ( there also present many factories in the area )


yep. I travel / "commute" for business to the greater Stuttgart area for 20 years now. It's all but fun.



lampsakos21 said:


> so in the near future i wouldnt be surprised if there would be more 2x2 Bundestrasse in that area.


Nope. It was the very same 20 years ago and only very little improvements. Virtually nothing "big" changed and nothing "big" will change. Small and very expensive projects are ongoing. Mostly slow. B14 to Backnang is a never ending story. B29 to Aalen is.... yeah, little progress but the 2x2 expressway will never reach the Autobahn A7. B10 eastbound to Ulm we discussed, has the best progress - but damn slow and underdesigned, B10 widening westbound to Vaihingen is planned for ages.....



lampsakos21 said:


> I have a question though. Since the traffic is huge in that area and they have a "greenier" approach ,


Green approach = Avoid traffic (= stay home)



lampsakos21 said:


> why there is not an eastern ring road around Stutgartt?


Residents and Greens are oppose it. There are two project for a Northeast bypass but no plans for a southeast bypass (like originally planned in1970s).

The "Großer Nord-Ost-Ring" (outer north-east beltway) is B14 to Backnang and L1115 (= future B328). B14 widening to 2x2 around Backnang has building permits since November 2005 - 16 years now. The first km was built from 2016 to 2018. 7km are left. It should be built in three steps. Funding was assigned in December 2015 but construction works have not yet been started.... The official announcement is still that it should be completed by 2026. We will see....









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





L1115 should be upgraded to 2+1 grade-separated. AADT is around 30,000 vehicles/day if I'm not mistaken. It was originally planned to be upgraded by the state of Baden-Württemberg but they agreed with the federal goverment that the road will be transferred to the federal government. This was finally agreed this summer. That means, the project will be funded by the federal budget. However, the Baden-Württemberg's state road authority is still responsible for the planning procedures and nothing happened in the last decades. Just talks and promises.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org






The "Kleiner Nord-Ost-Ring" (inner north-east beltway") is the B29 project. It was planned as 2x2 expressway but the state road authorty only started with the planning works for a 2-laned Neckar bridge ("Andriof-Brücke") as state road. The project was stopped in 2014 because residents and greens didn't want any bridge. The B29 project is still confirmed as full 2x2 expressway between B14/B29 and B10. I remember that the expected AADT is > 60,000 vehicles/Day but I just checked the 2014 documents and they only indicate 48,000. I don't remember but think that there was another study ~2016/17 resulting witht the new (higher) figures.... dunno.... Everything is more or less on hold. And I'm sick off it all.....



https://openstreetmap.de/karte/



You can check this map (federal demand plan) and zoom in to get 2014 AADT estimations / cost estimations etc: https://bvwp-projekte.de/map_street.html






Nordostring Stuttgart – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org





etc


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

lampsakos21 said:


> About the B10 , they are are some chances that B10 will have a new route around Geislingen . The proposed design proposes also one tunnel . Unfortunately they will not expand the rest of B10 till Ulm , at least for the next decade (2030 )
> Sources : B10-Streckenplan – B 10-NEU


The B10 is a very good alternative for driving from Stuttgart to Ulm (and Munich) when the A8 is crowded with holiday traffic and Geislingen is the only weak point there with transit traffic crossing the town.


----------



## MichiH

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> The B10 is a very good alternative for driving from Stuttgart to Ulm (and Munich) when the A8 is crowded with holiday traffic and Geislingen is the only weak point there with transit traffic crossing the town.


Not sure... I drove it several times this summer during the evening rush hour. It was not faster than the Autobahn. I also drove it eastbound on a weekend with holiday traffic westbound. It was quite a long queue westbound, not worth driving B10* if the traffic reports about A8 were right. The A8 widening at Ulm-West interchange is completed now (since September, official opening ceremony two weeks ago, see upthread). which caused daily (and often very long, 10km+) traffic jams in the last years. The A8 _Albaufstieg_ is still a bottle neck (by >= 203x).

*Highly depending on your destination. If you live in the Stuttgart area, it might make sense, but it is not a good alternative if you travel Karlsruhe - Ulm (and further to the Alps) or Heilbronn - Ulm.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

MichiH said:


> Not sure... I drove it several times this summer during the evening rush hour. It was not faster than the Autobahn. I also drove it eastbound on a weekend with holiday traffic westbound. It was quite a long queue westbound, not worth driving B10* if the traffic reports about A8 were right. The A8 widening at Ulm-West interchange is completed now (since September, official opening ceremony two weeks ago, see upthread). which caused daily (and often very long, 10km+) traffic jams in the last years. The A8 _Albaufstieg_ is still a bottle neck (by >= 203x).
> 
> *Highly depending on your destination. If you live in the Stuttgart area, it might make sense, but it is not a good alternative if you travel Karlsruhe - Ulm (and further to the Alps) or Heilbronn - Ulm.


Yes, I was speaking about the traffic from the Stuttgart urban area (Stuttgart, Esslingen, Ludwigsburg),


----------



## Bender

MattiG said:


> How in the world can such a construction take 12 years? Rerouting a few ramps and building a few bridges.


And the result is very, very unimpressive. After 12 years, I would have liked a nice stack.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The media report that the 2.5 kilometer segment of A98 at Rheinfelden will be opened to traffic on 15 December 2021.



https://www.suedkurier.de/region/hochrhein/rheinfelden/warten-hat-bald-ein-ende-der-vierte-abschnitt-der-a-98-steht-endlich-vor-der-eroeffnung;art372615,10969758



This segment has been under construction for 12.5 years. It is one of the slowest motorway projects in Germany. Construction began in March 2009. The A98 overpasses at the Hochrhein interchange were unused for 11 years after being completed in 2010.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Also in the news is A73 in Nürnberg, where the six lane widening between Nürnberg-Hafen-Ost and Kreuz Nürnberg-Süd (A6) has been completed.

Apparently this project took 15 years to be completed, though the main construction phase was 2018-2021.









Ausbau nach 15 Jahren abgeschlossen: Auf der A73 in Nürnberg heißt es nun umdenken


NÜRNBERG - Die Autofahrer wird's freuen: Endlich ist die A73 südlich von Nürnberg keine Stau-Falle mehr. Weil die Autobahn hier nun sechsstreifig ausgebaut ist, gibt's hier selbst im Berufsverkehr nur noch selten größere Behinderungen. An einigen Stellen müssen sich die Verkehrsteilnehmer seit...




www.nordbayern.de


----------



## ChrisZwolle

_Die Autobahn_ reports on Facebook that the Helsa-Ost to Hessisch Lichtenau-West segment of A44 east of Kassel will be put into service in fall 2022.

Construction on this segment began in September 2010, making it a 12-year construction period for 6 kilometers of Autobahn. Most of it is in the 4,200 meter Hirschhagen Tunnel, which will be one of the longer Autobahn tunnels.




__ https://www.facebook.com/DieAutobahnGmbH/posts/895183734502294


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some more quasi-A98 news from the High Rhine area in Southern Germany. The second stage of the Lauchringen bypass will be inaugurated tomorrow, almost exactly 30 years after the first stage opened to traffic in October 1991.

There was a temporary endpoint at B314, but traffic to Schaffhausen still had to go through Lauchringen until this 2 kilometer extension to B34 is completed.

I wonder if it will be signed as A98. It doesn't sound like it, but it's an extension of the single carriageway A98 around Lauchringen.

Location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=47.6246&mlon=8.3383#map=14/47.6246/8.3383




https://www.suedkurier.de/region/hochrhein/waldshut-tiengen/im-bogen-um-oberlauchringen-herum-so-faehrt-es-sich-auf-der-neuen-ortsumfahrung;art372623,10972610


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A groundbreaking ceremony was held for the replacement of four bridges (Talbrücken) on A45 between Herborn and Wetzlar.

Locations:

Talbrücke Heubach: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6540&mlon=8.3205#map=16/50.6540/8.3205
Talbrücke Völkersbach: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6242&mlon=8.3538#map=15/50.6242/8.3538
Talbrücke Bechlingen: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6054&mlon=8.4527#map=15/50.6054/8.4527
Talbrücke Bornbach: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6029&mlon=8.4723#map=15/50.6029/8.4723

These bridge are located within 20 kilometers of each other. They are built to fit a six lane A45.

Talbrücke Heubach: € 30 million, April 2026 
Talbrücke Völkersbach: € 77 million, October 2027
Talbrücke Bechlingen/Bornbach: € 107 million, October 2027 

Total cost: € 214 miljoen.


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

ChrisZwolle said:


>


Lauchringen = onion rings? It would be interesting to learn how that name came about


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I wonder if it will be signed as A98. It doesn't sound like it, but it's an extension of the single carriageway A98 around Lauchringen.


No, it's B34.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A new government has been formed in Germany. The three parties (SPD, Grüne & FDP) will form a coalition.

It is reported by the media that the transport ministry will be headed by FDP, likely by Volker Wissing (1970).

Wissing is the leader of FDP in the state of Rheinland-Pfalz (Rhineland-Palatinate) and was minister for economy, transport and agriculture in that state from 2016 to 2021. In that capacity, he governed with the same parties as they will now do federally. 

It is the first time that the federal transport ministry will be headed by FDP. The ministry has always had CDU/CSU or SPD ministers since 1949.


----------



## Braillard

So, good or bad ? The FDP is supposed to be rather stingy ..


----------



## MichiH

Braillard said:


> So, good or bad ? The FDP is supposed to be rather stingy ..


Greens wanted the position. Is a Liberal Federal Minister of Transport "better" than a Green Federal Minister of Transport?


----------



## Corvinus

Definitely yes, though it is evident he won't accomplish miracles within the corset of a red-green majority government. Already his party (according to the _Sondierungspapier_) successfully rejected the blanket speed limit for the coming period, and stinginess wasn't an issue there ...


----------



## Attus

In my opinion:

After Alexander Dobrindt und Andreas Scheuer Mr. Wissing could be the best minister for transport by simply sitting home and diong nothing.
It was expected that Anton Hofreiter from the Green Party can be minister, Wissing is a significantly better candidate for this position.
In the German political structures ministers and ministries are much more independent than, for example, in Hungary, so it's really important, who is minister and which party he's coming from. Ha can't make miracles, yes, but has more freedom than you think.
The new minister for finances, Mr. Christian Lindner, is from the same party, FDP. He's interested to make the ministry of transport successful. With a minister of another party, especially from the Greens, it would work the opposite way. So it is expected that Lindner will support investments in the traffic sector.


----------



## sven_engelen

The A99 forms the ring road of the 3rd biggest city in Germany: München


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The damage to the Rahmede Bridge of A45 at Lüdenscheid sounds severe. A deformation has been found in one of the steel beams supporting the bridge deck. They suspect cracks too. A thorough bridge inspection is now being performed, with a conclusion by mid next week. However they have already indicated that the bridge might not reopen until a major structural repair is done, which could take long (potentially over a year).
> 
> This bridge has been on the list of planned bridge replacements since 2014, however a 2017 inspection found the bridge to be in acceptable condition so other bridges got priority over this one. They said that a bridge replacement would normally take 8 to 10 years. Obviously, this would be disastrous for the region. There are no decent alternate routes for regional traffic. Long-distance traffic could be detoured via Cologne or Kassel. But the Lüdenscheid area is now in terrible gridlock, as traffic finds its way through the city center. Other routes in the region are jammed as well.


A45 at Lüdenscheid will remain closed for the next 3-4 months. It should be opened for cars but remain permanently closed for trucks. Planning and construction of the new bridge takes 8-10 years but they try to do it quicker.









Sauerlandlinie A45: Talbrücke bei Lüdenscheid bleibt drei Monate gesperrt


Die Vollsperrung der A45 bei Lüdenscheid wegen Brückenschäden bleibt vorerst bestehen. Lkw werden wohl nie wieder drüber fahren, für den Pkw-Verkehr wird eine Notverstärkung angebracht - doch das dauert.




www1.wdr.de


----------



## Attus

If heavy traffic diverts to Cologne (A3/A4 - A1), motorways around Cologne will be congested even 2PM.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In particular the Leverkusen interchange, where all truck traffic already has to turn off because the A1 bridge across the Rhine is closed to all trucks. With this closure on A45, even more trucks will be using that route. Though I think most long-distance truck traffic from Bavaria to the eastern Ruhr will likely shift to A7-A44. 

This bridge normally carries 13,000 trucks per day. The impact to the regional industry will be significant as well, as they face the longest detours and delays.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Though I think most long-distance truck traffic from Bavaria to the eastern Ruhr will likely shift to A7-A44.


A7-A49-A44? Isn't the Fuldabrücke Bergshausen south of Kassel also permanently closed for trucks?

btw: The Lüdenscheid bridge is not the worst case scenario. Just image what would happen if a A45 bridge south of Siegen would fail where also west-east traffic (NL/B - PL) runs concurrent on A45 because of the A4 gap....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A1 + A61 are still closed after the floods from 14-15 July 2021. However A61 will finally reopen next week for northbound traffic.

It will open in stages;


12 December: A1 from Weilerswist-West to Kreuz Bliesheim
13 December: A61 from Rheinbach to Kreuz Kerpen
14 December: A61 through Kreuz Meckenheim (meaning that through traffic is possible again)
16 December: the direct ramp from A1 to A61 at Kreuz Bliesheim will open

A1 will still be closed between Dreieck Erfttal and Hürth. This is expected to open southbound in mid-January 2022, weather permitting. And by spring 2022 in northbound direction.






A61: Wiederfreigabe der A61 zwischen den Kreuzen Meckenheim und Kerpen - EMZ Eifel-Mosel-Zeitung


Meckenheim/Erftstadt/Kerpen (Autobahn GmbH). Fünf Monate nach den verheerenden Unwettern im südlichen Rheinland und nördlichen Rheinland-Pfalz erreichen




www.eifelzeitung.de


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> A1 will still be closed between Dreieck Erfttal and Hürth. This is expected to open southbound in mid-January 2022, weather permitting. And by spring 2022 in northbound direction.


I wonder whether traffic on L495 will be restricted. It connects AS Hürth (A1) and AS Gymnich (A61). It runs between two villages, so traffic does not run through any inhabited area. It's a two lane road having roundabouts, obviously not desinged for carry the traffic of a motorway, although having a pretty high standard. (MAP).


----------



## TM_Germany

It seems like the rebuilt Eschelsbacher Brücke opened for traffic recently. It was a large concrete arch bridge from 1929. Most of the bridge got demolished, however tne original arch was kept, although I don't think it has a static function anymore. The reconstruction process started in 2017, traffic was diverted via a temporary bridge. Chris made posts about it here and here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Dreieck Erfttal (A1/A61). The river had eroded and undermined the northbound carriageway. A noise barrier collapsed into the river. They have now restored it and it will open to traffic tomorrow.


----------



## geogregor

TM_Germany said:


> It seems like the rebuukt Eschelsbacher Brücke opened for traffic recently. It was a large concrete arch bridge from 1929. Most of the bridge got demolished, however the original arch was kept, although I don't think it has a static function anymore. The reconstruction process started in 2017, traffic was diverted via a temporary bridge. Chris made posts about it here and here.


Yes, the original arch is not carrying the loads nowadays. But it was used as a scaffolding for construction of the new arch on top of it. Brilliant engineering if you ask me.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

ChrisZwolle said:


> The media report that the 2.5 kilometer segment of A98 at Rheinfelden will be opened to traffic on 15 December 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.suedkurier.de/region/hochrhein/rheinfelden/warten-hat-bald-ein-ende-der-vierte-abschnitt-der-a-98-steht-endlich-vor-der-eroeffnung;art372615,10969758
> 
> 
> 
> This segment has been under construction for 12.5 years. It is one of the slowest motorway projects in Germany. Construction began in March 2009. The A98 overpasses at the Hochrhein interchange were unused for 11 years after being completed in 2010.


The opening date is now 20 December:



https://www.suedkurier.de/region/hochrhein/kreis-waldshut/ein-weihnachtsmann-eroeffnet-den-neuen-a98-abschnitt-bei-rheinfelden-in-wenigen-tagen;art372586,10991438


----------



## chopint

ChrisZwolle said:


> The opening date is now 20 December:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.suedkurier.de/region/hochrhein/kreis-waldshut/ein-weihnachtsmann-eroeffnet-den-neuen-a98-abschnitt-bei-rheinfelden-in-wenigen-tagen;art372586,10991438


Woowww, 12 years for 2 Kilometers Highway. Just a typical German construction period.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> The opening date is now 20 December:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.suedkurier.de/region/hochrhein/kreis-waldshut/ein-weihnachtsmann-eroeffnet-den-neuen-a98-abschnitt-bei-rheinfelden-in-wenigen-tagen;art372586,10991438


The very same source announced Dec 15 just 4 weeks ago


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An important bridge in Berlin has been closed after the span sagged. It's the Elsen Bridge of B96a in the southeast of the city. The bridge was already in poor condition and capacity was halved in 2018, with sensors installed to monitor the bridge. They indicated that the span had sagged 8.2 mm. They suspect that rebar has snapped. 

Half the bridge was already demolished, as they were preparing for a temporary bridge to be constructed there. The bridge has a full replacement scheduled by 2028.

The bridge is part of an important artery in the southeast of Berlin. The under construction A100 will feed into it. The bridge was completed in 1968.









Für Passanten, Radfahrer und Schiffe: Berliner Elsenbrücke nach Vollsperrung teilweise wieder freigegeben


Tragfähigkeitssensoren schlugen Alarm: Die Brücke wurde am Montag gesperrt. Mutmaßlich waren Temperaturschwankungen verantwortlich.




www.tagesspiegel.de





Location: Google Maps

A 2010 photo of the bridge (half the bridge has been demolished since):


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A61 has just reopened at Kreuz Meckenheim, meaning that through traffic now is possible again for northbound traffic after a 5-month closure. This will significantly relieve Bonn from through traffic.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470756586654216193


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The B480 bypass of Bad Wünnenberg in North-Rhine-Westphalia has opened to traffic today. It is a 6 kilometer bypass of this town. Bad Wünnenberg is located in the valley of the Afte River, with steep grades on either side, especially for trucks. 

The new bypass includes the 785 meter long and 72 meter high Aftetal Bridge. It is one of the larger bridges in Western Germany. B480 is an extension of A33 into the Sauerland region. It improves access, travel time and convenience to Brilon and winter sports locations like Willingen. 

The construction of the project took over 8 years.






Verkehr kann bald rollen


Christiane Knippschild vom Landesbetrieb Straßen NRW muss in diesen Tagen immer wieder ungeduldige Anrufer vertrösten. Denn eigentlich sieht an der neuen B 480 und der riesigen Brücke über das Aftetal alles fix und fertig aus. Doch noch stehen die Straßensperren und der kurze Sprung fast bis...




www.westfalen-blatt.de










B480: Vorzeitiges Weihnachtspräsent! Freie Fahrt an der Ortsumgehung Bad Wünnenberg | Straßen.NRW


Künftig geht es auf dem Weg von Brilon nach Paderborn bedeutend schneller zu.



www.strassen.nrw.de





Location: OpenStreetMap


----------



## sven_engelen

The A8 between Salzburg and Bernau. One of Hitler's remaining Reichsautobahnen left in Germany. 2x2 lanes without a shoulder and still no speed limit including the scenic Alps


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> nope!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe. The elevated road through Wetzlar must be replaced one day (It was reported that it must be done by 2027). It seems that a 2x2 bypass heading to A480 might be an option.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That means, many years before B49 will finally be 2x2 from Limburg to Wetzlar, B49 through Wetzlar will be gone. It might be fixed again many, many years later.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. It was further demand in the 2003 federal demand plan but it's not included anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> There is A5 which might be widened to 2x3.


The (now former) Federal Ministry of Transport *approved the 2x2 B49 expressway alignment with a tunnel at Dalheim (Var 5.4* on the left of the subsequent map) in late November. It will directly connect the (currently u/c - _with slowest pace_) B49 Limburg - Wetzlar expressway to A480 and A45. The old elevated B49 route through Wetzlar will be demolished. *The old bridge from 1963 can maximum be used by the end of 2027. *However, some serious cracks have been found in Mid November, and the bridge has been *closed for trucks > 3.5 tons*. A temporary stabilization of the bridge is underway by spring 2022 and the bridge might be opened for trucks again. The bridge is inspected daily. Trucks are currently rerouted via B277/A480/A45. Since the ministry has approved the route, the Hesse road authority (the slowest German road authority regarding planning and construction of new roads) *can start the preliminary design planning now*. Then, the Federal Ministry of Transport must approve the overall project. Afterwards, the plan approval procedure can be started. If it is not challenged, construction works might begin. I'm optimistic that construction works might be started in the 2030s. The *estimated construction time is announced with 7 years*. That means, even if building permits had already been issued and construction works had been awareded, the new road had been opened by end of 2028 at the earliest. One year after the estimated lifespan of the old bridge will be over. The AADT on the old 2x2 route through Wetzlar was 46,000 vehicles/day back in 2017, thereof 3,900 trucks > 7.5 tons. The estimated 2030 AADT is *53,000 vehicles/day, thereof 5,100 trucks > 7.5 tons*. Travel times of the new route will be 2 minutes longer than on the old route but I think that the chosen route is the best route they could have been chosen! Farmers fear that A480 might be completed one day since the west-east traffic will already be directed to the A480 gap between A45 and A485.


















OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org





Some links:
Project site
Data sheet of chosen route
Video of bridge stress test
FAQs

Press releases November 2021:





B 49: Sperrung für Lkw im Bereich der Taubensteinbrücke bei Wetzlar


Umleitungen werden kurzfristig ab heute Abend eingerichtet und ausgeschildert




mobil.hessen.de









B 49: Sperrung für Lkw im Bereich der Taubensteinbrücke bei Wetzlar


Hessen Mobil arbeitet mit Hochdruck daran, die Befahrbarkeit für den gesamten Verkehr baldmöglichst wiederherzustellen




mobil.hessen.de









B 49: Sperrung für Lkw im Bereich der Taubensteinbrücke bei Wetzlar


Aufbau einer Lkw-Separierung unter Vollsperrung – Einsatz von mobilen Messanhängern




mobil.hessen.de












B 49: Bund stimmt Tunnellösung zu


Der hessische Vorschlag schützt die Bevölkerung in Wetzlar und reduziert Eingriffe in die Natur.




wirtschaft.hessen.de


----------



## Attus

So, if I understand it correctly, B49 will have a gap between AS Aßlar (current A480×B277) - AS Wetzlar-Ost (A45×B49) and through traffic should take this detour through A480 - A45? But in this case A45 bteween Wetzlarer Kreuz and Wetzlar-Ost would have its own traffic AND that of B49, an AADT of more than 100,000, i.e. pretty much.
Wetzlare Kreutz is btw. heavily overdesigned and is able to have much heavier traffic it actually has. As far as I know the only motorway interhcange in Germany having a direct ramp for each left turning directions.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> So, if I understand it correctly, B49 will have a gap between AS Aßlar (current A480×B277) - AS Wetzlar-Ost (A45×B49) and through traffic should take this detour through A480 - A45? But in this case A45 bteween Wetzlarer Kreuz and Wetzlar-Ost would have its own traffic AND that of B49, an AADT of more than 100,000, i.e. pretty much.


The plan approval procedure for 2x3 widening of A45 between Wetzlarer Kreuz (A480) and Wetzlar-East (B49) starts next week. The doucments are published from Dec 28. The current AADT is 61,000 vehicles / day and they already considered the permanent B49 detour. The project is managed by the federal Autobahn autority. Maybe this makes the procedures quicker? Nevertheless, they announced the beginning of construction work for spring 2025. It also contains a 400m viaduct. In best case, the 2x3 widening might be done by the end of 2027. We will see.









Aktuell: Talbrücke Blasbach: Planungsunterlagen liegen aus


Die Autobahn Westfalen plant den Neubau der A45-Talbrücke Blasbach zwischen dem Wetzlarer Kreuz und der Anschlussstelle Wetzlar-Ost. Dazu ist im Oktober 2021 das Planfeststellungsverfahren beim Regierungspräsidium (RP) Gießen beantragt worden.




www.autobahn.de


----------



## MichiH

An interview (in German) about the closed A45 Rahmede viaduct with the head of the regional Die Autobahn GmbH office: Sauerwein-Braksiek zur A45-Talbrücke: Zwei Jahre für Neubau möglich - ab Baustart

She reports about the causes, actual activities and future plans. They wanna get an indication by end of January if the viaduct can be blown up (which might happen in 2022) or must be demolished piece by piece (which requires a lot of preperation and might start in 2023). Construction companies think that the construction of the new bridge will take 1.5 to 2 years. She thinks that it will take 2 to 2.5 years if they work 24/7. Getting the building permits is still challenging. They found bats in a pile of the existing bridge and a nature preserving agency is on the verge of filing an action if the EIA will be skipped because it will include the widening from 4 to 6 lanes which is not a simple replacement. The head of the regional office says that the older A45 bridges will be relieved from heavy traffic due to the closure and might last longer. Small bridges could be replaced within 80 days if issues arise but the most critical viadcut is the 940m long Sechshelden viaduct near Haiger in Hesse (OSM). This A45 section also deals with west-east traffic (B-PL) due to the A4 gap in addition to the north-south traffic.

The plan approval order for the Sechshelden viaduct replacement (including widening) started in August 2018 and plans have been revised in 2021. Residents call for a tunnel solution....

Edit, typo fixed: might start in 2022 -> might start in 2023


----------



## Bender

oh yeah the good old catch-all "but there is a very crucial very important very unique specie of [include obscure insect or worm specie] that happens to live just right there and nowhere else, we can't possibly build anything anywhere close to these marvels"


----------



## geogregor

MichiH said:


> The plan approval order for the Sechshelden viaduct replacement (including widening) started in August 2018 and plans have been revised in 2021. Residents call for a tunnel solution....


Tunnel as a replacement of a viaduct? Some sort of floating tunnel?


----------



## devo

Regarding the comment about endangered species it is widely understood to be one of the biggest challenges we're going to face on this planet. 
But I suspect I'm not preaching to the choir with a message like that on this subforum.

That being said, there was a report somewhere that all the discussions about _if_ an assessment would be necessary, legal, etc., etc., well it turned out that just doing the assessment and moving the bats (in this case) was much quicker and more cost effective than years of back and forth about whether it should be done.

So either you could do as across the pond, try to remove all environmental protections and be done with it. Or just let the assessment take place, because it could turn out to be cheaper in the long run, at least if it wouldn't impact the reconstruction progress.

My opinion is that they figure out how to move these bats, rebuild the bridge within 2.5 years with capacity to six lanes as a replacement, as ChrisZwolle mentioned is possible in the Netherlands, if understood correctly.
Then they could do the entire widening assessment later.


----------



## MichiH

geogregor said:


> Tunnel as a replacement of a viaduct? Some sort of floating tunnel?


The viaduct (German: Talbrücke) has a maximum height of 25m. Residents suggest a slightly different alignment including a 400m tunnel at Dillenburg interchange. The Federal Ministry of Transport has alreadyd rejected the idea back in 2015 because it would cost 50 million € more than the new viaduct.









Talbrücke Sechshelden – Wikipedia







de.wikipedia.org





Houses are also very close to the existing viaduct:









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.de


----------



## stickedy

I can't find any old air photos and the photos of the buildings are limited available, but from the style it seems that most if not all of the houses there were built after the bridge.

If the houses were there already, then it would have been a better idea to take a different route. But in the 60ies nobody really cares about that especially since the truck traffic was a lot lighter and the cars in general not so fast. So the noise was considerable less than today.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Elevated structures actually result in a lot less noise than if you are at ground level. The biggest problem is often a poor quality bridge joint which generates a 'thumb-thumb' noise.


----------



## stickedy

Yes, but there are or better were obviously alignments possible without getting so close to settled areas regardless of bridges or on ground.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The half-year progress on the new A40 Rhine River Bridge at Duisburg (Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp). They have already built the foundations and jacked a part of the new span out. The bridge deck seems to be very close to a house.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> The Federal Administrative Court has directed that *works on the Fehmarnbelt tunnel must be stopped* because of an injunction (Eilantrag). The court has dismissed all appeals last year but some reefs have been found when the planning procedures were already finished, and the German state of Schleswig Holstein must revise the planning documents for how to deal with the reefs. The injunction seems to be in combination with the reefs.
> 
> There are many news articles, e.g.:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fehmarnbelttunnel: Gericht bittet um Stopp von Riff-Arbeiten
> 
> 
> Das Bundesverwaltungsgericht hat das Land Schleswig-Holstein zu einem vorläufigen Stopp von Baggerarbeiten im Bereich g…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.t-online.de


The injunction of the nature protection guys was rejected yesterday: Pressemitteilung Nr. 11/2022 | Bundesverwaltungsgericht
An action from the municipality of Fehmarn regarding the fire protection concept of the tunnel was also rejected by another court the other day: Stadt Fehmarn: Eilantrag gegen den Beginn der Bauarbeiten am Fehmarnbelttunnel bleibt erfolglos


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Rinsdorf Bridge of A45 near Siegen has been imploded today. The bridge was 486 meters long and 70 meters tall. It was originally built in 1967.


----------



## threo2k

Why did they do this?


----------



## Luki_SL

^^This bridge was in poor condition. It`ll be built the new one.


----------



## MichiH

threo2k said:


> Why did they do this?


The bridge was shabby and had to be replaced. A new one is already in place next to it and another one will be built in the next years for the 2nd carriageway where the old bridge was. It is in combination with 2x3 widening. They start with the replacements of the (most shabby) viaducts. Maybe you remember that another A45 bridge was just closed to all traffic for good just a few weeks ago?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Maybe not everyone is familiar with the problematic situation with German bridges. 

This is A45, a motorway through hilly terrain. It was opened in stages between 1967 and 1971 (Westhofen to Gießen). All bridges of A45 are in poor condition, in addition there is a need to six-lane the entire motorway between Dortmund and Gießen. So every single bridge will be replaced: there are 52 (!!) bridges just like this, almost all of them are scheduled for demolition and replacement this decade. It's a huge project, likely the largest single bridge replacement programme in Europe.


----------



## MichiH

MichiH said:


> An interview (in German) about the closed A45 Rahmede viaduct with the head of the regional Die Autobahn GmbH office: Sauerwein-Braksiek zur A45-Talbrücke: Zwei Jahre für Neubau möglich - ab Baustart
> 
> She reports about the causes, actual activities and future plans. They wanna get an indication by end of January if the* viaduct can be blown up (which might happen in 2022) or must be demolished piece by piece (which requires a lot of preperation and might start in 2023).* Construction companies think that the construction of the new bridge will take 1.5 to 2 years. She thinks that it will take 2 to 2.5 years if they work 24/7. Getting the building permits is still challenging. They found bats in a pile of the existing bridge and a nature preserving agency is on the verge of filing an action if the EIA will be skipped because it will include the widening from 4 to 6 lanes which is not a simple replacement. The head of the regional office says that the older A45 bridges will be relieved from heavy traffic due to the closure and might last longer. Small bridges could be replaced within 80 days if issues arise but the most critical viadcut is the 940m long Sechshelden viaduct near Haiger in Hesse (OSM). This A45 section also deals with west-east traffic (B-PL) due to the A4 gap in addition to the north-south traffic.
> 
> The plan approval order for the Sechshelden viaduct replacement (including widening) started in August 2018 and plans have been revised in 2021. Residents call for a tunnel solution....
> 
> Edit, typo fixed: might start in 2022 -> might start in 2023


They announced today - not by end of January, but hey..... - that the A45 Rahmede viaduct at Lüdenscheid will be blown up. It might take another 6 months till it will happen. More details will be announced on Thursday.









NRW: Autobahnbrücke Rahmede wird gesprengt


Die marode Autobahnbrücke Rahmede bei Lüdenscheid auf der wichtigen Nord-Süd-Achse A45 soll gesprengt werden. Das gab Bundesverkehrsminister Wissing bekannt. Die Talbrücke ist seit Anfang Dezember gesperrt.




www.tagesschau.de


----------



## sponge_bob

MichiH said:


> They announced today - not by end of January, but hey..... - that the A45 Rahmede viaduct at Lüdenscheid will be blown up.


Aren't the greens howling about 'rare' bats who have mysteriously started to live under these very A45 bridges???


----------



## geogregor

sponge_bob said:


> Aren't the greens howling about 'rare' bats who have mysteriously started to live under these very A45 bridges???


Why mysteriously? Bats often nest under bridges. There is nothing mysterious about it.

But... The claim could be wrong factually, or they could find ways of relocating bats, or they could assess that numbers are not significant for the specific bat population.

I know you love sniping at the greens but there are processes allowing for thing to be resolved.


----------



## sponge_bob

The mystery is that ordinary decent batty bats don't nest under bridges...only 'rare' ones.


----------



## Tronni

I don't get what's so mysterious about it. Sometimes it just happens to be a sligtly rarer type of bat. And if that rarer type of bat is protected, you need to be more careful about stuff like this.


----------



## geogregor

sponge_bob said:


> The mystery is that ordinary decent batty bats don't nest under bridges...only 'rare' ones.


I don't know, I'm not a bat specialist. Are you? 

The fact is that biodiversity is declining everywhere, many species are becoming increasingly rare. 

What I know for sure is that there are websites designated to the subject of bats somewhere out there. If you really want to know


----------



## 54°26′S 3°24′E

I do not know about Germany, but in Norway all bats are protected.


----------



## g.spinoza

54°26′S 3°24′E said:


> I do not know about Germany, but in Norway all bats are protected.


In Italy too.


----------



## Stuu

sponge_bob said:


> The mystery is that ordinary decent batty bats don't nest under bridges...only 'rare' ones.


All bats are protected everywhere in the EU (and ex-EU). 6 months in prison for doing anything to disturb them without permission in the UK


----------



## MichiH

Yep, all bats are protected in EU but parti-coloured bats are specially protected. Authorities must be more careful when moving them.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some photos of the Leverkusen Rhine River Bridge replacement project of A1, images by _Die Autobahn_.

1. The bridge works in November 2021









2. Between the bridge and Kreuz Leverkusen-West.









3. Kreuz Leverkusen-West, which links to A59.









4. A1 west of the bridge, towards Kreuz Köln-Nord.


----------



## @[email protected]

Why are noise barriers in the middle?


----------



## sponge_bob

In Hamburg there is a plan to replace the 1970s Köhlbrandbrücke because it is life expiring fast and because it stops the massive new container ships from navigating the Elbe. The long term plan is to spend €3bn on a 3km tunnel.  or some crazy amount like that. The tunnel will not be ready until at least the mid 2030s, long after the bridge is closed.

Something 'must be done' in the interim between the tunnel opening and the bridge closing and seemingly *this is the something*.


----------



## MichiH

sponge_bob said:


> Something 'must be done' in the interim between the tunnel opening and the bridge closing


What about a 2x2 motorway 3km to the south? The last A26 section should be opened by 2031 but the western section parallel to the Kohlbrandbrücke should be in service by 2028. However, it is still a very long way to go and planning procedure delays are normal in Germany....

























A 26: Neubau Ost (Hafenpassage)


Die Verlängerung der A 26 von Stade in Richtung Osten dient dem Netzlückenschluss zwischen der A 7 im Westen und der A 1 im Osten.




www.deges.de





It's funny that they use different interchange names on the very same page.... 


Kohlbrandbrücke: OpenStreetMap
Future A26 section to the south: OpenStreetMap


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An update of the bridge replacement at the Darmstädter Kreuz (A5/A67). The overpasses were in very poor condition and needed to be demolished. They built a new steel bridge and jacked it over the A5/A67 (Frankfurt - Mannheim). The bridges will carry A5-A67 traffic (Heidelberg - Mainz). A5 and A67 change over at this location, so the through route is actually two different route numbers.





































Photos by _Die Autobahn_


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A44 is closed south of Mönchengladbach again.

It turns out that the location of A44 is very prone to high winds from the west. There is a massive open mine to the west of it, so all wind funnels over the edge, where A44 is located.


----------



## Des

ChrisZwolle said:


> A44 is closed south of Mönchengladbach again.
> 
> It turns out that the location of A44 is very prone to high winds from the west. There is a massive open mine to the west of it, so all wind funnels over the edge, where A44 is located.


Yes on this bit of road you already need both hands on the wheel on days there is less than 1 bft, let alone when it storms. They should put some wind deflectors up to make the road safer and better to drive imo.


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> A44 is closed south of Mönchengladbach again.
> 
> It turns out that the location of A44 is very prone to high winds from the west. There is a massive open mine to the west of it, so all wind funnels over the edge, where A44 is located.


It's impossible they didn't know that in advance,


----------



## Turf

g.spinoza said:


> It's impossible they didn't know that in advance,


Can they borrow some sound barriers from poland to block the wind?


----------



## Attus

B9 is a national road along the Rhine. It used to be an imperial road Basel - Nimwegen (Nijmegen), but the southern section is now in France (Alsace, i.e. Grand Est), currently B9 starts at the Dutch border near to Nijmegen, and ends at the French border as a direct continuation of the French A35. 
Some sections of B9 look similar like in the late 19th century, some were developed to 4 lane, motorway like expressway. Through Koblenz and Mühlheim-Kärlich it's a urban expressway. I drove today between Bonn and Koblenz. The Ahr bridge (MAP) was damaged heavily in the flood in July 2021. The western (southbound) part of the bridge had to be removed. Currently only the eastern (originally northbound) part may be used, one lane in each directions. There is a very strict speed limit installed: 30 km/h. 
Building a new Ahr bridge may not be finished on several months, and, actually, dozens of Ahr bridges have to be rebuilt, so the one, which has another one only a couple of meters apart, is not necesserily the most important one.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some images of that situation:


----------



## mariusvonbucovina

^^
I remember that bridge was under reconstruction or similar even before the flooding.
Living till relatively recently in Bonn, I drove on it beginning of 2021 and I remember the construction site and 30km/h limit.

I also used to bike underneath the bridge, along the Ahr route, the bridge looked quite outdated 4-6 years ago.
I was surprised to see the bridge resisted and didn't totally collapse last July.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Rälsbach Bridge of A45 near Siegen has been imploded just now.

It's part of two bridge replacements (the other is the nearby Rinsdorf Bridge). The first span of the Rälsbach Bridge was imploded on 26 November 2017, the second today. I'm not sure why it took so long, because this bridge is not particularly large. It was initially reported that the entire replacement would take 3 years but by now it appears that it may take twice as long as planned. All bridge replacements on A45 are taking considerably more time than originally planned.



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497888686649876481


----------



## sponge_bob

ChrisZwolle said:


> All bridge replacements on A45 are taking considerably more time than originally planned.


German bat whisperers are clearly not up to it.


----------



## MichiH

Street art on the closed A45 Rahmede viaduct "let us build bridges" *#bridgeplease*


----------



## Wilhem275

4 m on an highway is seriously substandard though, a normal double decker bus would be involved (of course there's a margin, but a conscious driver would be righteously doubtful).


----------



## MichiH

PovilD said:


> Usually when 4 m, actual bridge height is slightly higher. This seem to be the opposite?


Source? I don't think so!

The A1/A61 carriageway was reduced to one lane but is two lanes now. The overpass is closed and will be demolished next weekend.









Aktuell: A1/A61: Beschädigte Brücke bei Erftstadt-Bliesheim muss abgerissen werden


Nun steht es fest: Die bei einem Lkw-Unfall vor einer Woche beschädigte Brücke über die A1/A61 bei Erftstadt-Bliesheim muss abgerissen werden.




www.autobahn.de


----------



## Attus

MichiH said:


> The A1/*A62* carriageway


For sure a typo, but don't let people to be confused: it's A61.


----------



## panda80

The A9 north of Nuremberg is a nice hilly drive. The most interesting feature is the direction separation north of Schnaitach, where the 2 carriageways are even 500m apart. Drove and filmed 3 weeks ago the route from Nuremberg to Bayreuth:


----------



## MichiH

Earthworks for the demolition of the closed A45 Rahmede viaduct began this morning. However, hazel dormouses are still in hibernation and the company likely began working without the permission of the nature conservation authority. Works had been stopped at noon.


















Talbrücke: Baustopp wegen Haselmaus-Schlaf - Geschädigte der A45-Sperrung sauer


Die Vorbereitungen für die Sprengung der maroden A45-Talbrücke Rahmede in Lüdenscheid laufen. Jetzt geht es um die Tiere. In der Nähe werden zwei Fledermaus-Türme errichtet - als Pfeiler-Ersatz.




www.come-on.de


----------



## Attus

There was a tricky question in German "Who wants to be a millionaire" ("Wer wird Millionär?") last monday. 
Geman license plates begin with a regional code, that can be 1, 2 or 3 letters. Examples: W - Wuppertal, BO - Bochum, LEV - Leverkusen. 
The question was: which of the following 4 examples is correct (the other 3 are wrong): 
A: FF - Frankfurt
B: DD - Düsseldorf
C: BB - Baden-Baden
D: HH - Hildesheim
I knew the correct answer, but needed a minute to realize it.


----------



## g.spinoza

An der Oder?


----------



## MichiH

yep!


----------



## g.spinoza

MichiH said:


> yep!


I want my million now.


----------



## MichiH

g.spinoza said:


> I want my million now.


I googled... It was "only" worth 16,000 €


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Rosenstein Tunnel of B10 in Stuttgart has opened to traffic today. It is a 1.3 km, 2x2 lane tunnel. Construction took 8 years. It is a shortcut and allows traffic to bypass a number of traffic lights.

Location: OpenStreetMap









Rosensteintunnel eröffnet


OB Dr. Frank Nopper hat zusammen mit dem Minister für Verkehr des Landes Baden-Württemberg, Winfried Hermann, den Tunnel am Samstag freigegeben.




www.stuttgart.de













Trotz Eröffnung des Stuttgarter Rosensteintunnels: Weiter Ärger und Frust wegen Stau


Seit vergangenem Samstag ist der Rosensteintunnel für den Verkehr freigegeben. Doch Autos und Lkw stehen am Leuze-Knoten trotzdem weiterhin im Stau.




www.swr.de


----------



## Ni3lS

No way, finally. Was driving by it last week and saw that they were still doing some testing.


----------



## CNGL

Now I see that _Who wants to be Millionaire?_ question, it was a nice one. On that line, there are the similarly named Aschersleben and Oschersleben, each which its own code (and for more fun they are close to each other in Saxony Anhalt). However they aren't consistent: ASL is Aschersleben (alternate for SLK), but OSL is not Oschersleben but Oberspreewald Lausitz. Likewise, OC is Oschersleben (alternate for BK), but AC is not Aschersleben but Aachen.

And the best thing I like to do with codes: I use "Braunschweig" as a minced oath for "bullsh*t", as both abbreviate to BS.


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Rosenstein Tunnel of B10 in Stuttgart has opened to traffic today. It is a 1.3 km, 2x2 lane tunnel. Construction took 8 years. It is a shortcut and allows traffic to bypass a number of traffic lights.
> 
> Location: OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rosensteintunnel eröffnet
> 
> 
> OB Dr. Frank Nopper hat zusammen mit dem Minister für Verkehr des Landes Baden-Württemberg, Winfried Hermann, den Tunnel am Samstag freigegeben.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stuttgart.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trotz Eröffnung des Stuttgarter Rosensteintunnels: Weiter Ärger und Frust wegen Stau
> 
> 
> Seit vergangenem Samstag ist der Rosensteintunnel für den Verkehr freigegeben. Doch Autos und Lkw stehen am Leuze-Knoten trotzdem weiterhin im Stau.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.swr.de


They use the B10 and B27 as an alternative Northern bypass waiting for the real Northern bypass ...


----------



## Ni3lS

That will be an eternal wait unfortunately..


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

They needed *8 years* for the construction of the 1,3 km *Rosensteintunnel* ...


----------



## MichiH

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> They needed *8 years* for the construction of the 1,3 km *Rosensteintunnel* ...


The Rosensteintunnel was being built (and funded) by the city of Stuttgart. The B29 "north-east beltway" from Ludwigsburg to Waiblingen is a federal project - and will never be built


----------



## SevenSlavicTribes

MichiH said:


> The Rosensteintunnel was being built (and funded) by the city of Stuttgart. The B29 "north-east beltway" from Ludwigsburg to Waiblingen is a federal project - *and will never be built*


The Nordostring is part of the federal planning.
They need to connect the B14 and B29 with the B10 and B27 outside of the Stuttgart city area
Otherwise they'll have permanent traffic jams around Pragsattel and Bad Cannstatt


----------



## MichiH

SevenSlavicTribes said:


> The Nordostring is part of the federal planning.
> They need to connect the B14 and B29 with the B10 and B27 outside of the Stuttgart city area
> Otherwise they'll have permanent traffic jams around Pragsattel and Bad Cannstatt


yep. but so what? Stuttgart is a permanent traffic jam. People are used to it. They don't care.... Nothing will happen in the forseeable future.... Sad. Very sad.


----------



## Ni3lS

Me needing 50 minutes to drive 10 kilometers on any average morning in the Stuttgart area 🤡


----------



## Stratocaster

Ni3lS said:


> Me needing 50 minutes to drive 10 kilometers on any average morning in the Stuttgart area 🤡


Didn't You consider biking or e-biking? It's a nice distance. Save time, gain health.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A 1.9 km tunnel is under construction in Bremerhaven. It will connect the port to A27, so trucks don't have to drive on surface streets. 

However the project is far behind schedule. Construction began in November 2013, at that time it was scheduled to be completed in late 2018 and a traffic opening in early 2019. However they have moved the opening date up several times, now again to the second quarter of 2023, which means it's more than 4 years behind schedule and € 140 million over budget.









Eröffnung des Bremerhavener Hafentunnels verzögert sich erneut


Die Arbeiten dauern länger als geplant. Außerdem sind die Baukosten auf mehr als das doppelte gestiegen. Ursprünglich waren 118 Millionen Euro veranschlagt.




www.butenunbinnen.de


----------



## Ni3lS

Stratocaster said:


> Didn't You consider biking or e-biking? It's a nice distance. Save time, gain health.


Maybe when we return to the office full-time (or majority time) again. As a kid I used to bike 180 kilometers a week just to get to school, I never really enjoyed it. You always arrive sweaty. I also have space issues here, the hurdle to store my bike and get it out of storage is far greater than getting the car out of the garage. Just all things to consider. But for the right person it's definitely a viable alternative here in the area. The cycling route along the river is nice and well-used, infrastructure get's crappy once you get to Stuttgart. Would definitely go with an e-bike, as the final uphill part in the city to my office would be a struggle


----------



## Ni3lS

For those who are interested on what effectively changed with the opening of the Rosensteintunnel in Stuttgart, here is my attempt at an explanation (don't mind my non-existent drawing skills). 

Last week I drove through it for the first time and on the way back out of the city, so from the North (B10) towards the Leuze junction I hit about 10-15 minutes of traffic and was stuck in the tunnel for a while. On the way North towards Feuerbach I hit no traffic in the morning. The way back was around noon, so I would assume it gets even worse around rush hour. 

*First the nice part,* which benefits through traffic and traffic going to the North of the city. You actually don't hit any traffic lights anymore coming from the B10/B14 until after the second tunnel in Feuerbach (see upper arrow). The original route before opening of the Rosensteintunnel directed traffic via the junction just North of Bad Cannstatt (See red dot with original bottleneck), which included a busy U-bahn (tram) crossing and pedestrian lights. This part from Leuze to that junction caused an easy 20-30 minutes waiting time during rush hour if unlucky. 

_Not so nice:_ until construction work is finalized on the Leuze junction, many problems will continue to exist. It's a part tunnel-junction and involves the main route (B14) into the city. However, when coming from the direction South (B10/B14), the alignment actually goes from 3 lanes to 2, a traditional bottleneck. Now the single lane for the B10 through is now less of an issue since traffic can continue without problems into the tunnel but the B14 traffic into the city basically needs to make a U-turn right before the tunnel entrance (see the tiny green line from Leuze). Therefore there are traffic lights there and this is what essentially causes traffic in the tunnel to back-up. So traffic that was at the original bottleneck in the Southern direction has merely shifted to the tunnel (for now). 

For context: Both B10 and B14 South/East of Stuttgart serve a large part of the metropolitan area and carry a lot of commuters. Additionally the B10 (+B313) from Plochingen carries a ton (literally, because trucks) of through traffic, being often a quicker route from Munich (via A8) to the (North)West of Germany (via A81). If you zoom out on the map around Stuttgart you see why, because the 'beltway' (it's not really a belt because not full circle) goes quite a ways around the city and is often also jammed up because of the Sindelfingen/Böblingen and Pforzheim bottlenecks. Also a lot of industry (Mercedes-Benz HQ, see benzviertel on the map) and the neckar river port are situated around Untertürkheim, also on the B10.


----------



## Tophe in Germany

ChrisZwolle said:


> A 1.9 km tunnel is under construction in Bremerhaven. It will connect the port to A27, so trucks don't have to drive on surface streets.
> 
> However the project is far behind schedule. Construction began in November 2013, at that time it was scheduled to be completed in late 2018 and a traffic opening in early 2019. However they have moved the opening date up several times, now again to the second quarter of 2023, which means it's more than 4 years behind schedule and € 140 million over budget.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eröffnung des Bremerhavener Hafentunnels verzögert sich erneut
> 
> 
> Die Arbeiten dauern länger als geplant. Außerdem sind die Baukosten auf mehr als das doppelte gestiegen. Ursprünglich waren 118 Millionen Euro veranschlagt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.butenunbinnen.de


It is getting so usual....see schedule for the junction A 66 / A 661 in Frankfurt. Even an easy work like bringing the lines at the correct place to enable the traffic to run on the new road ( in fact the old one ) has been scheduled to last 6 months ( only marking and rebuilding separation walls ), and ist still not finished. Even the shields announcing end of this action by end Nov. 2021 are still there. And of course the new path is still not in use, causing again strong traffic jams...maybe because of the blitzer standing there.....


----------



## Attus

A1 northbound at intersection AD Erfttal (MAP) is open again. It was the last motorway section in the region that was closed after the flood last July. 
There are not any motorways fully closed any more, but there are several restrictions. For example in B9 Ahr bridge at Sinzig or B266 at Bad Neuenahr only one carriegeway is open, with one lane per direction.


----------



## Attus

When directions signs talk about history. 















Full Size photos:








Photos


Fortepan is a copyright-free and community-based photo archive with over 100,000 photographs available for anyone to browse and download in high-resolution, free of charge.




fortepan.hu












Photos


Fortepan is a copyright-free and community-based photo archive with over 100,000 photographs available for anyone to browse and download in high-resolution, free of charge.




fortepan.hu





And history behind them. We're in Berlin, the early 60's. Coming from Dresden or Cottbus (the current A13) the motorway ends in a T-intersection to A10, at what is called Schönefelder Kreuz today. From here, towards central Berlin, the logical route led through Neukölln. Additionally, from Southeastern GDR (Leipzig - A9, Magdeburg - A2) to central Berlin normally traffic used the current A115. 
But on August the 13th, 1961,a wall was built through the city, the route through Neukölln was closed, A115 as well. Roads in Treptow district, that were insignificant last night, became the main route to Berlin in the morning.
East German authorities reacted, and, a first measure, they placed new directions signs. These pictures were shot at the front of the railway station Grünau (MAP). This crossing became suddenly a main junction point. Later on, East Germany built a motorway from Schönefelder Kruz to Treptow, currently A113 (Schönefelder Kreuz - Waltersdorfer Dreieck) - A117 (full length). If you see A117 today, you may think, that road does not make any sense, but back then it bypassed West Berlin, led traffic to East Berlin, relieving those minor roads, and the crossing in Grünau, from traffic flow. 

Additionally, since both major airports were behind the wall, East Berlin needed a new international airport. They decided to develop Schönefeld. The airport, too, was available through Treptow and through this crossing. "Flughafen" means "Airport" in German. 

Remark: What is A113 today, north of Waltersdorfer Dreieck, has only been built in the 90's, after the wall had been fallen.


----------



## MichiH

Attus said:


> Later on, East Germany built a motorway from Schönefelder Kruz to Treptow, currently A113 (Schönefelder Kreuz - Waltersdorfer Dreieck) - A117 (full length).


About 10km were opened in 1963









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org







Attus said:


> Remark: What is A113 today, north of Waltersdorfer Dreieck, has only been built in the 90's, after the wall had been fallen.


In 2000s. About 14km were opened in 2004 (1km) / 2005 (5km) or 2008 (9km)









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## Pitchoune

Sorry if this has already been discussed multiple times and worse if recently.
They recently completed the impressive Hochmoselbrücke on the Bundestrasse 50/E42 highway.
This highway provides an interesting alternative between Belgium, Luxembourg and Hauts de France, and Francfort. That must also be why they built that expensive bridge. But there is still a dozen kilometers of the road that is not a highway (there is one roundabout and a few crossroads) just before the Francfort Hahn airport. Why ? When will they convert that part into a highway as well ? That does not look like a big job, certainly much easier and less expensive than the nearby brige.


----------



## stickedy

Afaik they are still working on the plan. Don't expect it to be finished before 2030 (or even getting started before 2030).


----------



## MichiH

A8 Ulm - Stuttgart *westbound(!)* is closed for the time being since 2 PM. It is a safety closure due to an impending rock fall on the 1930s "Drackensteiner Hang". They currently look for experts to deal with the rock. The closure will minimum last "a few days". All detours are already congested (1.5h after closure), 11km traffic jam on A8 east of "Ulm-West" interchange where traffic is led on B10. B10 through Geislingen has major construction which is already a mess without the closure. Drivers should travel A7/A6 from Ulm to Heilbronn. A8 eastbound is still in service because the carriageways are divided.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org













Aktuell: A 8: Kurzfristige Sperrung der A 8 aufgrund Felssturzgefahr


Die Autobahn 8 muss aufgrund eines drohenden Felssturzes kurzfristig ab Dienstag, 19. April 2022, ca. 14 Uhr für mehrere Tage zwischen den Anschlussstellen Merklingen und Mühlhausen in Fahrtrichtung Stuttgart vollgesperrt werden. Eine weiträumige Umfahrung dieses Bereiches wird empfohlen.




www.autobahn.de


----------



## MichiH

It is now reported that A8 should stay closed till Friday. 15km traffic jam right now. Delay of more than 2 hours.


----------



## Ni3lS

I drove past there westbound on Monday 22:00, very happy to have avoided this


----------



## MichiH

I'll only travel A8 eastbound tomorrow


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It turns out that the final segment of B10 at Hinterweidenthal has been upgraded to a four lane expressway, it opened in the week of 8 April. Construction of this brief segment has dragged on for years, this 4 kilometer segment was built in several phases over a period of 12 years.

It's part of the B10 Pirmasens - Landau corridor, a major route that was once planned to be served by A8. 

The location: OpenStreetMap


















Dauerbaustelle auf B10 ist Geschichte: Freie Fahrt bei Hinterweidenthal


Seit 2019 hatten die Brückenarbeiten bei Hinterweidenthal Autofahrer auf eine Geduldsprobe gestellt. Jetzt gibt der Landesbetrieb Mobilität noch vor Ostern Entwarnung.




www.swr.de


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The breakthrough of the Kohlberg Tunnel of B172a at Pirna in Eastern Germany has been achieved today. This 300 meter tunnel is part of the new southern bypass of Pirna, which also includes a large bridge.









B 172, Ortsumgehung Pirna: Durchschlag am Kohlbergtunnel


Mit dem Meilenstein ist eine weitere wichtige Etappe des Projekts geschafft.




www.deges.de


----------



## MichiH

A8 Ulm - Stuttgart westbound should be re-opened on Friday evening. The westbound traffic jam at the last exit Merklingen had a length of 8km when I drove eastbound this evening at 6PM. The carriageway is 3-laned and two lanes were clogged with trucks only. The left lane was used by cars only where the queue was much shorter. I guess that many cars already left A8 at Ulm-West exist heading onto B10.









Aktuell: A 8: Aufhebung der Sperrung der A 8 am Freitagabend voraussichtlich möglich


Ein Ende der Staus rund um den Albabstieg ist in Sicht. Die seit Dienstagnachmittag aufgrund eines drohenden Felssturzes zwischen den Anschlussstellen Merklingen und Mühlhausen in Fahrtrichtung Stuttgart vollgesperrte A 8 kann bei planmäßigem Verlauf der Arbeiten voraussichtlich ab Freitagabend...




www.autobahn.de





















Nach Felssturz am Drackensteiner Hang: A8 nahe Merklingen wieder freigegeben


Freie Fahrt am Drackensteiner Hang der A8: Die Sperrung der A8 bei Merklingen ist am Freitagnachmittag aufgehoben worden. Die Strecke war wegen eines Felssturzes tagelang gesperrt.




www.swr.de




The SWR news article provides more pics and a video.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tirol is limiting the number of trucks that can enter at Kiefersfelden / Kufstein.

This causes a 50 kilometer traffic jam on A93 and A8 in Germany.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The federal court in Leipzig has rejected the appeals against the plan approval for the 17 kilometer Osterburg - Seehausen segment of A14 in Saxony-Anhalt. This means that all of A14 in this state is now approved. It is located between segments that are already under construction.





__





Pressemitteilung Nr. 29/2022 | Bundesverwaltungsgericht







www.bverwg.de


----------



## Ni3lS

Here is a video that goes with the map I posted earlier: the new Rosensteintunnel. Big difference whether you drive in the northern direction or southern direction.


----------



## TM_Germany

It's a shockingly bad piece of journalism, considering the usual quality of DW. Nearly all key points are just plain false. Apart from roads not receiving more funding than rails, which considering that the former transports about 80% of goods and people, is a pretty strong commitment to rails, there are also not "850 km of new Autobahn" planned. In general the network is pretty complete and the few remaining major projects are all going very slowly. Maybe about ~250km of new Autobahn are still planned, everything else are expansion projects of existing roads.


----------



## Attus

Cookiefabric said:


> What's new about it?


News? I think, if I wrote an article about the road network of a random Asian country I have no idea about, that article would have less bullshit, than this one...


----------



## JaSamKralj

What route should I take if I need to go from Rostock to Graz (Austria)? Via Czechia and Vienna or Berlin->Leipzig->Regensburg?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Those are very similar in distance and both have their pros and cons. You could take one route to Graz and another one back to Rostock. 

Going through Regensburg: more construction zones, possible border checks at Suben (someone recently told me their checks are pretty much permanent there, going into Germany). 

Going via Prague - Vienna: not entirely a motorway, Prague is a possible congestion spot. Requires an additional vignette for Czechia. However D1 Prague - Brno is now entirely free of construction.


----------



## JaSamKralj

Thanks Chris! I'm looking at the traffic situation on Google Maps and it seems quite okay. Not so many construction sites on the route that I have planned to take.

Btw, is it true that trucks are not allowed to drive on the Autobahn on Sundays?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

JaSamKralj said:


> Btw, is it true that trucks are not allowed to drive on the Autobahn on Sundays?


Yes, every Sunday, in fact quite a number of countries have such a Sunday / holiday truck driving ban.

I made this map of Sunday truck driving bans, but I made it over 10 years ago, not sure if it's still accurate.


----------



## Attus

I would avoid Czechia simply in order not not buy the Czech vignette.


----------



## JaSamKralj

Attus said:


> I would avoid Czechia simply in order not not buy the Czech vignette.


The Czech vignette is around 13 EUR, while the toll for the Austrian Gleinalm and Bosruck tunnels are 16 EUR, so it evens it out.

I think I will go Germany only, just because I don't want to lose time in Prague traffic and have to drive that non-motorway section between Brno and the Austrian border.


----------



## cinxxx

I drove from Munich to Belfort 2 weeks ago (for the long weekend). I chose to drive via Lindau and Switzerland, than via Germany.
While there were some busy stretches and construction zones, it was a lot better than the mess in Germany on busy days.

Already had the Swiss toll sticker after another trip earlier, so no additional cost there.


----------



## JaSamKralj

I have decided to go with the Rostock->Berlin->Leipzig->Regensburg->Passau->Graz route.

@ChrisZwolle I saw you wrote in the petrol price thread that it's cheaper to exit autobahn and find a petrol station, than to fill up on a rest area? Also, are there any price differences on 95 between north and south on the route I have chosen, or is the difference negligible?


----------



## stickedy

Always leave the motorway for refilling!! You can easily save 15-20 Cent per liter.

We have price differences across different regions in Germany, but it's hard to pin down. We also have big price differences during the day, normally it's cheaper between around 18:00 and 22:00. It's very expensive through the night and the prices during rush hours in the morning and afternoon are also higher than rest of the day.

There is a good app for it: mehr-tanken


----------



## JaSamKralj

Thank you @stickedy!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Refueling off the motorway requires some advance planning though. I often found the fuel prices at the Autohof disappointing, most of the time they were hardly lower than directly on a motorway service area. These Autohof truck stops are signed so you wouldn't need to plan ahead. Going to a regular fuel station near an exit requires some planning about prices (is it worthwhile) and location (you don't want to waste half an hour).


----------



## Cookiefabric

@JaSamKralj I would recommand using this website (Deutsch/German): Aktuelle Diesel, Sprit, Benzinpreise - günstiger mit clever-tanken.de
Since German fuelprices changes by the hour, it also shows when the last update was received. More then 2h ago means no changes OR no data


----------



## stickedy

Normally there are gas stations nearby an exit at least when it's close to a city or a "big" exit with some industrial/commercial there. You normally see this when approaching the exit. Autohof of course is also to be avoided.

Edit: When you can see an McDonalds or BurgerKing sign close to the exit I did not experience one time that there is no gas station there also.


----------



## chopint

JaSamKralj said:


> Thank you @stickedy!


You can even save up to 40 Cents - yes, you are reading right, fourty Cents - when you exit the motorway and find the petrol station in the next near village/town


----------



## SRC_100

Ni3lS said:


> I didn't take many photos last sunday, just made some videos here and there of which I didn't have the chance to look at just yet. But this is a picture that goes with my story before, taken right after our arrival home. 12:21h of pure driving time, not counting the ferry from Rødby to Puttgarden.
> 
> View attachment 3414675


Stelvio or Giulia?


----------



## Ni3lS

SRC_100 said:


> Stelvio or Giulia?


It's a benz ;-)


----------



## MichiH

The plan approval order for the first new A20 section Westerstede (A28) to Jaderberg (A29) west of River Elbe was challenged, and the order was declared being invalid now: Pressemitteilung Nr. 45/2022 | Bundesverwaltungsgericht Most concerns were rejected (e.g. that there is no demand for the Autobahn) but the increasing load of nitrogen deposition will exceed the 0.3kg/hectare/year threshold impacting a nature protection area.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## Ni3lS

MichiH said:


> The plan approval order for the first new A20 section Westerstede (A28) to Jaderberg (A29) west of River Elbe was challenged, and the order was declared being invalid now: Pressemitteilung Nr. 45/2022 | Bundesverwaltungsgericht Most concerns were rejected (e.g. that there is no demand for the Autobahn) but the increasing load of nitrogen deposition will exceed the 0.3kg/hectare/year threshold impacting a nature protection area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap
> 
> 
> OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.openstreetmap.org


I heard somewhere that you can solve that problem by closing a farm or two 🙃


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> *B23 Kramertunnel*
> 
> Construction began on the Kramer Tunnel of B23 on the west side of Garmisch-Partenkirchen yesterday. It is a 3.4 kilometer long tunnel and scheduled for completion in 2024. The cost estimate is € 264 million.
> 
> BR reports that the planning and preparation has long been underway, a pilot tube was started around 10 years ago but found difficult conditions.
> 
> https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayer...misch-bau-des-kramertunnels-gestartet,RppQVGv


The federal authorities approved additional costs of 101 mililion €. The total costs raised from 264 to 365 million €. In addition, the end of 2024 deadline will not be met because of material shortage. They don't dare to update the opening date estimation.









Kramertunnel in Garmisch-Partenkirchen wird um 100 Millionen Euro teurer


Kosten liegen mittlerweile bei 365 Millionen Euro – Materialknappheit sorgt für Verzögerung




www.merkur.de





I had a look into old documents (Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan = _Bundesverkehrswegeplan_) about the costs:
68.2 million € were estimated in 2003.
190 million € were estimated in 2016.


----------



## henmar

Material shortage is also the reason why the A44 opening between Waldkappel and Ringgau has been postponed to 2023. Transformers for the tunnel electrical equipment will only be available in November instead of May, and a certain type of bitumen used for the road surface is not available before October - too late for finishing the surface before the winter break (it's not possible to apply it when it's too cold).









A 44-Freigabe jetzt erst im Jahr 2023


Die Eröffnung des Teilstücks zwischen Waldkappel und dem Ringgau verzögert sich. Grund dafür sind laut Deges Lieferengpässe.




www.hna.de


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Vor-Ort-Besuch: So kommt der Bau der A72 südlich von Leipzig voran
> 
> 
> Acht Kilometer lang, zehn Brückenbauwerke: Das sind die Eckdaten für den letzten Abschnitt der Autobahn 72, der derzeit zwischen Espenhain und Anschlussstelle A 38 entsteht. Und was diesen „Lückenschluss“ betrifft, gibt es gute Nachrichten.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lvz.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Leipziger Volkszeitung reports that the missing A72 segment from Rötha to A38 at Leipzig will open in July 2023. This is ahead of the 2026 reported earlier, though it will open with only one carriageway, with works ongoing for the *full four lane service in 2026.*
> 
> This part of A72 is delayed significantly due to the difficult soil conditions. Construction began in March 2015, so it would take 11 years to fully complete this 7 kilometer segment of Autobahn.


The tender documents for road marking are out (German). The construction sequence on page 22-24 indicates that asphalting is scheduled for 2027 and final layer + road markings for first half of 2028.


----------



## Cookiefabric

MichiH said:


> The tender documents for road marking are out (German). The construction sequence on page 22-24 indicates that asphalting is scheduled for 2027 and final layer + road markings for first half of 2028.


Another project that is selected to last AGAIN +/- 12 years (Delays will happen, the only question is: how much?). I thought that the Autobahn Betrieb was ment to prevent this ?


----------



## Stuu

MichiH said:


> The tender documents for road marking are out (German). The construction sequence on page 22-24 indicates that asphalting is scheduled for 2027 and final layer + road markings for first half of 2028.


The road markings are tendered separately?


----------



## devo

Ordnung muss sein. Every line is a separate tender?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The B9 bridge across the Ahr River at Sinzig has been replaced.

The original bridge collapsed during the catastrophic flood in the Ahr Valley in July 2021. The new bridge was built in less than 14 months (less than 12 months in fact, it was demolished in September 2021).









14 Monate nach Flut: B9-Brücke in Sinzig komplett fertig


Die Bauarbeiten an der Brücke der B9 in Sinzig sind beendet. Einer der Brückenpfeiler war durch das Hochwasser der Ahr im Sommer 2021 abgesackt.




www.swr.de


----------



## mariusvonbucovina

^^
Indeed, I drove on it southbound as you were posting the news. It is finally a normal, smooth drive that section (before it was a 30km/h limitation while reconstructing).


----------



## keber

Stuu said:


> The road markings are tendered separately?


Not only that - there is a mandatory winter pause between 1.12. and 31.03. (probably every year). I would find that appropriate on some high mountain roads with possible large amounts of snow or persistent cold, but Leipzig? Of course you can't do all things in the process of construction, but general earthworks, foundations and also most concrete works on objects can be done even in winter.


----------



## devo

keber said:


> Not only that - there is a mandatory winter pause between 1.12. and 31.03. (probably every year). I would find that appropriate on some high mountain roads with possible large amounts of snow or persistent cold, but Leipzig? Of course you can't do all things in the process of construction, but general earthworks, foundations and also most concrete works on objects can be done even in winter.


This is just an assumption but I think this makes sense if you consider the whole logistics chain involved. Many products used might need to be stored in a certain way and if it gets too cold (frost at night) and so on it might render certain products out of spec. Products might be prepared and temporarily stored in a very different part of the country.
Large scale projects are all about large scale planning and although we sometimes chuckle at German construction timescales – is this four months stoppage really the reason?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An official groundbreaking ceremony was held today for the six lane expansion project of A1 south of Münster. The € 93 million project will expand 9.5 kilometers of A1 from four to six lanes between the Münster-Hiltrup and Ascheberg interchanges. It is scheduled for completion in 2027.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An official groundbreaking ceremony was also held for another project on A1 in the same region: the reconstruction of Kreuz Dortmund/Unna, which is the A1/A40/A44 interchange on the east side of Dortmund. 

The project includes the adaption or new construction of 23 bridges, 9 kilometers of noise wall/barrier and the expansion of 5.5 kilometers of A44 to six lanes. 

The estimated project cost is € 268 million. The whole project is scheduled to take at least 10 years. It partially coincides with the already ongoing project to expand B1 to six lane A40 west of the interchange.


----------



## flapane

^^
Finally!!!!
One of the most required projects in the area.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A temporary bridge has been assembled across A1 at Neuenkirchen-Vörden, where the Autobahn is being widened to six lanes.

This job has a Dutch presence, Janson Bridging specializes in modular temporary bridges. They are headquartered in Hank, Netherlands and are the European market leader in temporary bridges.

Wagenborg is a maritime conglomerate with worldwide presence. Among their expertise is heavy lift. The cranes have Dutch license plates.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> _Die Autobahn_ reports on Facebook that the Helsa-Ost to Hessisch Lichtenau-West segment of A44 east of Kassel will be put into service in fall 2022.
> 
> Construction on this segment began in September 2010, making it a 12-year construction period for 6 kilometers of Autobahn. Most of it is in the 4,200 meter Hirschhagen Tunnel, which will be one of the longer Autobahn tunnels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/DieAutobahnGmbH/posts/895183734502294


The 6km long A44 section b/n Helsa and Hessisch Lichtenau will be opened on October 7th (source)









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## Luki_SL

^^Where is A44 planned to be connented with A4? Somewhere near Eisenach?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The project on Open Street Map:


----------



## MichiH

All A44 sections b/n Hessisch Lichtenau and A4 are u/c. To be opened later this decade - I don't believe the estimations (2025?) - but the next section just east of Waldkappel should be opened in spring 2023. The westernmost section just east of A7 is in (early) planning stage though and highly controversial (by NIMBYs).



henmar said:


> Material shortage is also the reason why the A44 opening between Waldkappel and Ringgau has been postponed to 2023. Transformers for the tunnel electrical equipment will only be available in November instead of May, and a certain type of bitumen used for the road surface is not available before October - too late for finishing the surface before the winter break (it's not possible to apply it when it's too cold). I don't expect works to begin earlier than 2030. Since there is a truck ban on B7 and the local roads, the Autobahn may only be used by cars for quite some time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 44-Freigabe jetzt erst im Jahr 2023
> 
> 
> Die Eröffnung des Teilstücks zwischen Waldkappel und dem Ringgau verzögert sich. Grund dafür sind laut Deges Lieferengpässe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hna.de


Meanwhile, the last 30km long A49 section from Kassel towards Gießen/Frankfurt (A5) - to the left on Chris' map - is on track to be opened by 2024, Nov 1. Why? It's a PPP project. There are reportingly 500 workers on-site every day (I guess Monday-Friday only). No material shortage expected due to long-term contracts. Last sabotage actions by opponents took place last March. (source)


----------



## CNGL

One of the truckers I follow in YouTube has delivered to several sites along A44. He is already done with Krauthausen and Sontra, and still sometimes delivers to Unhausen.


----------



## Luki_SL

MichiH said:


> All A44 sections b/n Hessisch Lichtenau and A4 are u/c. To be opened later this decade - I don't believe the estimations (2025?) - but the next section just east of Waldkappel should be opened in spring 2023. The westernmost section just east of A7 is in (early) planning stage though and highly controversial (by NIMBYs).


I guess, There is future A4/ A44 interchange ? 









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.pl


----------



## MichiH

Luki_SL said:


> I guess, There is future A4/ A44 interchange ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.pl


correct! The existing A4 Wommen exit to the east will be closed.









OpenStreetMap


OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.




www.openstreetmap.org


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove much of A45 today. The number of construction zones is astounding, I think there are 20 or more between Dortmund and Gießen. There are several locations where there is only 2 kilometers between construction zones. If you re-enter A45 from the Lüdenscheid gap, there are three construction zones within 10 kilometers. 

Almost all bridges are currently under construction, or at least have reduced / moved lanes to reduce the load. 

I've not seen anything like this in Germany. There is hardly any open road for more than 5 minutes between construction zones.


----------



## MichiH

Talking about A45.... The Autobahn and the Federal Minister of Transport announced in a press release: The contract for blasting of the Rahmede viaduct is awarded now. Detailled planning of the blasting can start now. Blasting should happen "soon" ("_Ziel ist, die Brücke so schnell wie möglich zu Boden zu bringen_" -> "_Goal is, to tear down the bridge as soon as possible_"). Clearance works under the viaduct began yesterday (Oct 4). Planning of the new viaduct continues.

btw: the sub headline is:
*Arbeiten schreiten mit Hochdruck voran - Work is progressing at full speed*


----------



## MattiG

MichiH said:


> *Arbeiten schreiten mit Hochdruck voran - Work is progressing at full speed*


Up to 20 km/h?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I dropped by the Rahmede Bridge on Monday, taking some photos before it is demolished. 

So this bridge has been closed for almost a year now, since December 2021. Traffic has to detour A1-A3 or through Lüdenscheid. They optimized traffic signals with extra long green phases for the detour route, and the traffic lights appear to be timed so a chunk of A45 traffic can proceed through multiple lights at once.


A45 Talbrücke Rahmede by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Talbrücke Rahmede by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Talbrücke Rahmede by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Talbrücke Rahmede by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Talbrücke Rahmede by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## CNGL

I've noticed B180 between Mansfeld and the Ernst Thälmann spoil tip (where B180 rejoins its old alignment) has been closed for two months now. I wonder what is going on along that section.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove across A4 between Görlitz and Bautzen today. A large-scale rehabilitation of the Tunnel Königshainer Berge has commenced in August.

There is a 1+1 configuration (one lane per tube), which caused a massive traffic jam going eastbound (many Polish migrants and truckers heading home for the weekend). There was approximately 10 kilometers of stopped trucks in that direction. I drove the other direction, which had very light traffic at that time. 

As this rehabilitation will last until 2025, this will cause a headache for Poles traveling back and forth around the weekend.


----------



## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> *A44, Germany
> 
> 7 October 2022*
> 
> The 5.9 kilometer segment of Autobahn A44 has opened to traffic this afternoon between the Helsa-Ost and Hessisch Lichtenau-West interchanges. This is on the Kassel - Eisenach project which aims to extend A44 to A4.
> 
> The project consists mostly of the 4.2 km Tunnel Hirschhagen, which is now the third-longest Autobahn tunnel in Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tunnel Hirschhagen auf der A44 in Nordhessen für Verkehr freigegeben
> 
> 
> Startschuss für den längsten Autobahntunnel in Hessen: Am späten Nachmittag ist der Hirschhagen-Tunnel auf der A44 bei Helsa für den Verkehr freigegeben worden. Ein jahrelanges Bauprojekt, das nicht unumstritten war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hessenschau.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Location: OpenStreetMap







Including protests against the Autobahn  The report calls A44 (again) "most expensive Autobahn of the world"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've traveled on the newly opened A44 today, on my trip home from Bautzen.

I took a couple of photos:


A44 Waldkappel - Helsa 21 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Waldkappel - Helsa 23 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Waldkappel - Helsa 25 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Waldkappel - Helsa 27 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Waldkappel - Helsa 28 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Waldkappel - Helsa 31 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Waldkappel - Helsa 33 by European Roads, on Flickr


My general impression of A44: this is not a typical high-speed Autobahn. It is curvy, tightly designed, and has lots of tunnels. The speed limit is reduced to 100 km/h on most of the currently open route, with 80 km/h in some tunnels.

It's quite a different experience from A44 to Dortmund or A4 to Dresden, traffic flow on those routes is generally high speed, while I think A44 will likely experience reduced traffic flow once this becomes a transit route for truck traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos of the under construction Neuenkamp Rhine River Bridge at Duisburg. This bridge is part of A40 and will replace the existing cable-stayed bridge which is in very poor condition. There are weigh stations and gates to regulate truck traffic on either side of the bridge, this is a rather incredible sight I've seen nowhere else in Europe except in Germany. 

The new bridge specs:


Two cable-stayed bridges (one in each direction). The first one is being constructed right now
Total length: 777 m
main span: 380 m (largest cable-stayed bridge in Germany)
pylon height: 70 m above the deck
deck width: 2 x 30.6 m (4 lanes plus shoulder)


A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp Duisburg 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp Duisburg 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp Duisburg 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp Duisburg 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp Duisburg 13 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp Duisburg 14 by European Roads, on Flickr


A40 Rheinbrücke Neuenkamp Duisburg 15 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The Wehretalbrücke Reichensachsen is an under construction bridge of A44 south of Eschwege, part of the Kassel - Eisenach project. It's a 669 meter long bridge. It is situated in a tight curve, maybe one of the most curved Autobahn bridges in Germany. It's almost completed, but opening depends on the completion of the rest of the route, but was planned for 2022, now probably 2023.

Location: OpenStreetMap


A44 Wehretalbrücke Reichensachsen 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Wehretalbrücke Reichensachsen 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


A44 Wehretalbrücke Reichensachsen 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## ChrisZwolle

More bridges, I've visited a lot!

This is the Lennetal Bridge, which was replaced between 2013 and 2021. It is one of the largest bridges of A45, with a length of 980 meters. It's impressive despite not being very high. It spans the valley of the Lenne River near the city of Hagen. The Lenne is only a small river at this point.


A45 Lennetalbrücke 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Lennetalbrücke 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Lennetalbrücke 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Lennetalbrücke 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


A45 Lennetalbrücke 13 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## Ni3lS

Sunset on the A99 around Munich this past weekend:


----------



## cinxxx

Was this on Friday?
I drove West on Friday and remember seeing something similar


----------



## Ni3lS

cinxxx said:


> Was this on Friday?
> I drove West on Friday and remember seeing something similar


Sunday


----------



## ChrisZwolle

BAST has recently published the new traffic volume data for the Autobahn and Bundesstrasse network. 

The traffic volume data is normally compiled nationwide every 5 years: 2010, 2015, etc. However the 2020 census was moved to 2021 due to the pandemic.

The 2021 census is still influenced by the pandemic, so traffic volumes are on average 8% lower than 2015.

The highest traffic volume is on A3 at Cologne, between Kreuz Köln-Ost and Dreieck Köln-Heumar: 166,300 vehicles per day.






Presse - Manuelle/Temporäre Straßenverkehrszählung (SVZ)







www.bast.de





(see 2021 excel files).

Press release: Presse - Straßenverkehrszählung 2021: Weniger Verkehr auf Bundesfernstraßen


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A44 Helsa - Hessisch Lichtenau has closed again after only 5 days of being open to traffic. The reason is that the fire alarms in the Tunnel Hirschhagen (4.2 km) malfunction. The tunnel and Autobahn segment remain closed until at least Monday.









 Hirschhagen-Tunnel auf A44 nach Sperrung wieder frei


Gleich nach der Eröffnung musste der Hirschhagen-Tunnel auf der A44 bei Helsa gesperrt werden. Es gab Probleme mit der Brandmeldeanlage. Die sind nun offenbar behoben. Deutschlands zweitlängster Tunnel ist für den Verkehr wieder freigegeben.




www.hessenschau.de





I've recorded my trip across A44 and through that tunnel:


----------



## Cookiefabric

About 15 km of Autobahn and almost every KM has a different speedlimit -- not very relaxing


----------



## flapane

And I thought the A44 would end in Kassel...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some news regarding the missing link of A1 in the Eifel region: Schmitt: Überprüfung der Entwässerungsplanung für A1-Lückenschluss abgeschlossen

The planning for the missing link between Blankenheim and Kelberg was nearly completed, when the region was struck by flooding in July 2021. They decided to overhaul the plans for the drainage of the motorway to ensure it is flood-proof. This is now complete, the plans are published.

It's unclear when construction could start, but it sounds like A1 is moving in to final stages of the planning phase.


----------



## MichiH

Preliminary works for the future Puttgarden interchange on B207 (OSM) as part of the hinderland connection of the Fehmarnbelt tunnel have been done in 2022. First construction of the 2x2 upgrade works (interchange overpass) are announced to be started in spring 2023. Preliminary works near Avendorf will start in 2023 too. Works on the section in-between near Burg will not started in 2025 at the earliest. Same for section near Großenbrode on mainland. There was an info session earlier this month: press release and presentation. Works should be completed by 2027/28 (source).
There was also a first non-public hearing for the Fehmarnsund tunnel in-between last week, see news article with less (relevant) info though.
Meanwhile, a court hearing about the Fehmarnbelt tunnel construction is scheduled for Dec 7th at the highest German administraion court.


----------



## geogregor

MichiH said:


> Meanwhile, a court hearing about the Fehmarnbelt tunnel construction is scheduled for Dec 7th at the highest German administraion court.


They don't have final approval yet? But construction is ongoing...


----------



## MichiH

geogregor said:


> They don't have final approval yet? But construction is ongoing...


They have. Three parties complaining think that the reef compensation areas are too small.









Fehmarnbelttunnel: Umweltschützer klagen erneut


Das Bundesverwaltungsgericht soll wieder über den Fehmarnbelttunnel verhandeln. Der Naturschutzbund NABU und das "Aktionsbündnis gegen eine feste Fehmarnbeltquerung" haben erneut geklagt.




www.ndr.de


----------



## random_user_name

MichiH said:


> Preliminary works for the future Puttgarden interchange on B207 (OSM) as part of the hinderland connection of the Fehmarnbelt tunnel have been done in 2022. First construction of the 2x2 upgrade works (interchange overpass) are announced to be started in spring 2023. Preliminary works near Avendorf will start in 2023 too. Works on the section in-between near Burg will not started in 2025 at the earliest. Same for section near Großenbrode on mainland. There was an info session earlier this month: press release and presentation. Works should be completed by 2027/28 (source).
> There was also a first non-public hearing for the Fehmarnsund tunnel in-between last week, see news article with less (relevant) info though.
> Meanwhile, a court hearing about the Fehmarnbelt tunnel construction is scheduled for Dec 7th at the highest German administraion court.


Why are they doing 2x2 upgrade of B207, instead of construction of A1? Even if the standard would be the same, I can't imagine this road not being signposted as A1 after the tunnel is opened. It would mean downgrading the road from motorway standard just for a few kilometers, on the most important link from mainland Europe to Denmark and Scandinavia.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The B207 upgrade is planned to be a full motorway standard:


----------



## MichiH

random_user_name said:


> Why are they doing 2x2 upgrade of B207, instead of construction of A1? Even if the standard would be the same, I can't imagine this road not being signposted as A1 after the tunnel is opened. It would mean downgrading the road from motorway standard just for a few kilometers, on the most important link from mainland Europe to Denmark and Scandinavia.


There will be a 7km non-motorway gap for the Fehmarnsund crossing for the time being. The planning procedure is in early stage - for road and rail. No one knows the political situation in 2035+, maybe it will be rededication - like B6n -> A36 - or not. We will see. Nonetheless, the driving experience will be the very same. Just yellow instead of blue signs at the end of the day. Maintenence for B roads is managed by the state though. Motorways by a federal authority. This could be the key - see B52 to A64a upgrade last year.


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## TrojaA

It is only a guideline and not a law, but as you can see from ChrisZwolle's screenshot, the narrower standard cross-section (RQ 28) is used. In addition, the density of junctions is quite high, which is why it is probably easier to plan this section as a federal road (Bundesstraße) with 2+2 traffic routing.
The same was true for the B6n, which has since been redesignated.


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## MichiH

TrojaA said:


> the narrower standard cross-section (RQ 28) is used


which is still a motorway cross-section if wikipedia is right: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richtlinien_für_die_Anlage_von_Straßen_–_Querschnitt#Regelquerschnitte



> RQ 26 (Breite der befestigten Fläche beträgt 2 × 10 Meter)
> Querschnitt für gering belastete Autobahnen und Stadtautobahnen bei beengten Platzverhältnissen. Leistungsfähigkeit liegt zwischen 20.000 und 60.000 Fahrzeuge pro Tag.
> _In den RAA durch den RQ 28 ersetzt. Unterschied zum RQ 26: jeweils 0,5 m breitere Seitenstreifen und 1 m breiterer Mittelstreifen._


Former RQ26 is RQ28 now which is used for lower loaded motorways for 20,000 to 60,000 vehicles/day.


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## threo2k

This is a german autobahn from year 1930, someone knows exactly where this place is located? :


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## henmar

threo2k said:


> This is a german autobahn from year 1930, someone knows exactly where this place is located? :
> 
> View attachment 4220166


I'm quite sure it's a photo of the A4 east of Nossen (Tannenberger Loch), where the motorway has been moved to a new alignment in 1999. The lanes are staggered (one lane is lower than the other direction), and the road is inside a sort of valley, I can't think of any other location.


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## otternase

threo2k said:


> This is a german autobahn from year 1930, someone knows exactly where this place is located? :
> 
> View attachment 4220166


if the photo is really from 1930, it could only be between Koeln and Bonn, as no other motorways existed at the time (except Avus). But even Koeln-Bonn was still under construction at the time and I wouldn't know of any place there which remotely looks like this. 



henmar said:


> I'm quite sure it's a photo of the A4 east of Nossen (Tannenberger Loch), where the motorway has been moved to a new alignment in 1999. The lanes are staggered (one lane is lower than the other direction), and the road is inside a sort of valley, I can't think of any other location.


possible, but then the picture must have been taken after June 1937


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## Attus

otternase said:


> if the photo is really from 1930, it could only be between Koeln and Bonn, as no other motorways existed at the time (except Avus). But even Koeln-Bonn was still under construction at the time and I wouldn't know of any place there which remotely looks like this.


You're right, but the photo is for sure not from 1930. 

Btw., the Cologne - Bonn motorway, the current A555 was opened in 1932, and not only the landscape looks very different, but the road, too. That road looked like this:


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## mapman:cz

threo2k said:


> This is a german autobahn from year 1930, someone knows exactly where this place is located? :
> 
> View attachment 4220166


What about A4 at Hörselberg? Weren't there two-level carriageways as well?


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## g.spinoza

otternase said:


> if the photo is really from 1930, it could only be between Koeln and Bonn, as no other motorways existed at the time (except Avus). But even Koeln-Bonn was still under construction at the time and I wouldn't know of any place there which remotely looks like this.
> 
> 
> 
> possible, but then the picture must have been taken after June 1937


There are other instances of this picture on the internet: they don't say where it was taken, but some say it was taken between 1936 and 1939.


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## random_user_name

TrojaA said:


> It is only a guideline and not a law, but as you can see from ChrisZwolle's screenshot, the narrower standard cross-section (RQ 28) is used. In addition, the density of junctions is quite high, which is why it is probably easier to plan this section as a federal road (Bundesstraße) with 2+2 traffic routing.
> The same was true for the B6n, which has since been redesignated.


Does the cross-section choice also determine other technical parameters, like curve radii or distance between interchanges? Also, how does designation (A/B) and cross-section affect possible speed limits?


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## henmar

random_user_name said:


> Does the cross-section choice also determine other technical parameters, like curve radii or distance between interchanges? Also, how does designation (A/B) and cross-section affect possible speed limits?


Speed limit, Cross-section and technical parameters are decided by the planning category "Entwurfsklasse" (EKA - design class).
EKA 1A is for long distance motorways, 1B for inter-regional motorways, 2 for "autobahnähnliche Straße" (regional motorways/yellow-signed autobahns), 3 for city motorways. Of course exceptions are always possible...

For the curve radius, EKA 1A has a minimum of R>900, 1B has R>720, 2 has R>470, 3 has R>280. 
The recommended minimum interchange distance is 8 km for EKA 1A, 5 km for EKA 1B and 2, and no recommendation for EKA 3.
Only RKA 3 has a maximum speed limit (100 km/h). But of course the regional authority can always set additional speed limits, it's only a design parameter.

There's a overview at Autobahnen | Bauformeln: Formeln online rechnen


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## henmar

mapman:cz said:


> What about A4 at Hörselberg? Weren't there two-level carriageways as well?


Ah yes, good call, didn't think of that - but that section was opened in 1940, and after 1939 those kind of photos were not really allowed anymore, and more important, that section was built on the hillside where on one side the terrain is much lower than on the other side, and on the photo it looks like there is ascending terrain on both sides.

The photo looks a bit like this one: http://www.strassengeschichte.de/Datum/1937/Strasse-1938-5-S130.jpg which was also taken on the A4 east of Nossen (but probably from the other direction).


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## ChrisZwolle

A ship with a large crane has rammed the Holtenau Bridge of B503 near Kiel this morning. The Holtenau Bridge is a set of large steel box girder bridges with a 186 meter span. The clearance is 42 meters. The bridge spans the North Sea - Baltic Sea Canal (NOK).

During the ramming of the bridge, the counterweights of the crane fell into the canal, and apparently the crane collapsed. 

Bridge damage has been observed and the bridge is closed to traffic. A first inspection revealed deformation of the girders and cracks in welds. A static team will make a thorough calculation if the bridge can reopen to traffic. It is likely closed for at least a few days, maybe longer if damage is serious.


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## TM_Germany

Bridges just keep getting L's in Germany


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## threo2k

henmar said:


> I'm quite sure it's a photo of the A4 east of Nossen (Tannenberger Loch), where the motorway has been moved to a new alignment in 1999. The lanes are staggered (one lane is lower than the other direction), and the road is inside a sort of valley, I can't think of any other location.


so what you are saying is that this stretch does not exist today? I could imagine myself driving on this road one day


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