# !!!!!!My trip to Haiti, May 2007 (WARNING: this is not a pleasant thread)!!!!!!



## autumnriver (Dec 20, 2004)

In May 2007, I had a short stay in Port of Prince, capital city of Haiti, and took these pics. Most of them were taken from a moving vehicle, so pardon me for their bad quality.
Coups, clashes, armed robberies, kidnappings, and poverty.
Besides sending peace-keeping troops, what can the world do to help this unfortunate country?

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30. Anti-robbery iron fences can be found everywhere in the city. Inside these stores, cashier's counters are also equipped with these things. 








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33. The President's office. Also called the Little White House.








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The second day I was in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, a place not too far from Haiti. A totally different world.
What can we say?
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## zergcerebrates (Jan 23, 2004)

Why are all Black dominated societies so unfortunate? I find it quite strange whether its from the Carribeans or Africa.


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## hornnieguy (Jan 5, 2007)

The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.

Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

> Why are all Black dominated societies so unfortunate? I find it quite strange whether its from the Carribeans or Africa.


What an ignorant statement. Maybe you should learn a little history before commenting. Taken from the 'Travel Haiti' website:

"By the mid-eighteenth century, a territory largely neglected under Spanish rule had become the richest and most coveted colony in the Western Hemisphere. By the eve of the French Revolution, Saint-Domingue produced about 60 percent of the world's coffee and about 40 percent of the sugar imported by France and Britain. Saint-Domingue played a pivotal role in the French economy, accounting for almost two-thirds of French commercial interests abroad and about 40 percent of foreign trade. The system that provided such largess to the mother country, such luxury to planters, and so many jobs in France had a fatal flaw, however. That flaw was slavery. "

" For over 100 years the colony of St. Domingue (known as the Pearl of the Antilles) was France's most important overseas territory, which supplied it with sugar, rum, coffee and cotton. At the height of slavery, near the end of the 18th century, some 500,000 people mainly of western African origin, were enslaved by the French."

Basically France got rich off of Haitian slaves. When finally the slaves formed a successful rebellion, Haiti became the first free Black Republic in the world.
The rest of the world, however viewed the nation as a threat and refused to recognise it as a Republic, therefore refusing it trade.

In short Haiti has been raped over and over again starting with the native slaves, and continuing with the African slaves. The seeds of those days are still being sown today.

Read more for yourself:http://http://www.discoverhaiti.com/history_summary.htm


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## alex3000 (Oct 20, 2002)

I can't believe that's here in the Western Hemishere... Looks like something you'd see in Africa.


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

hornnieguy said:


> The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.
> 
> Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.


I think it's more France's problem than anything else. Haiti's then president Aristide " launched a vigorous campaign last year(2004) for Haiti to be given back $20 billion, the equivalent of 90 million gold francs they paid to France in reparations in 1825, more than 200 years after the country gained independence. "

Needless to say Aristide failed,Some people believe that is why that President was forced into exile.


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

BTW thanks Autumn river for those eye opening pics. I myself am half Hatian and have never been there. If you have any more photos please post them.


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## autumnriver (Dec 20, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *Vanman*
> _BTW thanks Autumn river for those eye opening pics. I myself am half Hatian and have never been there. If you have any more photos please post them._


Nice to meet you on the forum.
We really wish Haitians a better life.
Of course I will post more pics. Give me some time.


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

Thanks for the pics. I'm Haitian and have been there a few times, but I never spend too much time in Port-au-Prince (but I do remember it wasn't all abysmally poor like most of the pics). 

Next time go to Jacmel on the southern coast. It's beautiful there.

why were you down there?


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## krull (Oct 8, 2005)

So sad how alot of Haitians have to live. It the country had is act toguether, Haiti could be a tourist paradise. Bringing alot of jobs to the locals. It is in a great location in the Caribean with a nice landscape and is very close to the USA.


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## edubejar (Mar 16, 2003)

I don't know what to say. Like most people that have seen this thread, I have mixed feelings.


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

I would just like to illustrate that, although Haiti is a very poor nation that needs a major overhaul, not everywhere looks like this.

Although the pics above are a reality, it is undoubtedly a misrepresentation of the _whole country_

There are many non-dirty/grimey areas of Haiti (especially outside of the capital):


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

And of course Haiti is full of beautiful countryside an beaches


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## Xpressway (Dec 2, 2006)

hornnieguy said:


> The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.
> 
> Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.


FRANCE should!

Too bad Haiti's situation, having such an amazing landscape and proximity to the U.S, i hope things get better for them.


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## Urbandeco (Jan 18, 2005)

Amazing pictures. It is a shame that the problems still exist. However, I would not point fingers at the USA helping. All countries should be helping.


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## Bori427 (Jan 6, 2007)

Vanman said:


> What an ignorant statement. Maybe you should learn a little history before commenting.


Why if it's true?

Plus the Prime Minister has to be black-thats what their constitution says


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## cheesy bob (Jan 14, 2007)

Wow,what an eyesore, hopefully a massive hurricane will cleanse that land this season.


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## Aztec Eagle (Sep 11, 2006)

*Beauty*



cheesy bob said:


> Wow,what an eyesore, hopefully a massive hurricane will cleanse that land this season.


An English writer by the name of John Milton once said...“The mind can make a heaven out of hell or a hell out of heaven”

I see beauty in SOME of those pictures i found the full of life and hope, it matters NOT where a person is born,but who they chose to be.

The best things in life ARE truly free.,i still see children playing in the streets in those pictures and a beautiful sky and a green lush island and that gives me hope.

We are all human regardless of color or wealth.

I would prefer to stand in the eye of the hurricane with this people,then to be in the company of a narrow minded hypocrite that places value of a nation on its economic wealth.

Some of those pictures even reminds me of poor ¨colonias¨in my city wich i love is like been in love with a ugly woman.

Poor COLONIAS in my City of Tijuana Mexico.


Shot at 2007-07-05


Shot with FinePix S3000 at 2007-07-05


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

The biggest peoblem in Haiti is probably the crime. Instead of working together for a better future, people just steal from their brothers. This is a place were a strong islam or christian regime would be usefull.


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## DarkLite (Dec 31, 2004)

*hey those colonias arent THAT UGLY AT ALL!!! reminds me of where i used to live in el salvador and i thought it wasnt ugly...as long as the streets arent full of garbage!*


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## Ohno (Jul 1, 2006)

^^
Just feel free to post them. Pictures are the most persuasive fact about a country. It would be better if you give a brief description.


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## autumnriver (Dec 20, 2004)

Thanks for all your replies.
Sorry, I’ve been busy these days, and had no time to view new posts in this thread. Now I have some time.
Now, to tell you the truth:
I was on a business trip to the city, to answer one of your questions.
Pics 1 to 21 were taken in a huge slum in Port of Prince, and represent the BAD side of the city. Actually I saw scenes even worse than these: tall, long-ranging garbage hills; but it was inconvenient for me to take a pic of them, because they were on the other side of the vehicle.
Pics 22 to 32 were taken in common streets, and reflect AVERAGE livelihood in the city.
Pics 34 and 35 were taken in the BEST hotel of the city.
Pics 36 and 37 show the skyline of the city, if there is a skyline.
Up hills I found some NICE houses, but failed to take a shot, because they were all hidden behind tall walls and barbed wires. As I learned, many rich people have fled the country due to instability.

Now, more pics, which were taken in common streets, and reflect AVERAGE or average-up livelihood in the city.
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50. This is of course a nice house.








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59. City centre








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## Rizzato (Dec 13, 2006)

hornnieguy said:


> The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.
> 
> Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.


in this situation I would say this would be the right thing to do..
these people need proper shelter and water-immediately.
our national debt situation is just ABSURD.
(and going up by the minute, helping Iraq to become a strong ALLY of the u.s....bordering Iran)

on the other hand, the u.s. administration could not give 2 shits what we think. we voted them in...that should be a lesson learned.

Obama, theres a guy you could actually approach about Haiti and he would be genuine in his feelings.


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## Rizzato (Dec 13, 2006)

btw..I have a lot of haitian friends and it really disturbs me to see their country like this. I can only imagine how the people feel...where do they even begin to start government and law enforcement, when people are too impoverished to contribute????


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## Brisbaner21 (Jul 17, 2007)

Its hard to believe a country like this is found in the Western Hemisphere.


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

Thank you autumnriver for showing the more _average_ and more livable sides of port-au-prince (It's even better in cities outside the capital).


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## zergcerebrates (Jan 23, 2004)

Vanman said:


> What an ignorant statement. Maybe you should learn a little history before commenting.


Don't blame me for being ignorant not everyone has to know the history of EVERY single country in the world especially small ones.

What I said is true. Most Black dominated societies ARE unfortunate, and don't blame it on slavery as it ended long time ago. Most countries or societies managed to pull themselves out of misery in 30-50 year time frame.


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## twingo1 (Jul 2, 2007)

*I agree with zergcerebrates*

One may call me whatever they want. The fact is, I was born in South Africa and since moved to Australia because the country has gone to hell.

Every black society around the world is an absolute failure. Call me what you may but the simple truth is. Blacks, blame everyone else, over slavery, racism, colonialism etc etc when they should say "that is the past it is time to move on." It is not the US or Japan or Australia’s role to bail out these waste cases and the problems in Sudan or Rwanda testify to this. 

Look at Asia e.g. Singapore, the Asian mentality is, "Right, let's get educated, and let's stop blaming others for our woes and start blaming ourselves. Once this is fixed we can get on with moving forward." 

Black societies, even in America are poorer and worse off, yet have all the opportunities in the world. A recent trip to the States was appalling in the hundreds of homeless blacks with an empty cup begging for money. Pathetic!, I didn’t see one Indian or Asian the were too busy working their ass off.

A tribal or gangland nature where an individual would rather look good and lose than look bad and win, how many blacks are more interested in music and sports compared to maths or a university education not based on sport scholarships? America is littered with people having nothing more than hunger for a better life coming from nothing and making a huge success. Just look at the Italians, Irish, Jews, Indians, Persians the list goes on and on. Blacks barely even make the billionaire list despite being almost 30% of the population. Those that do almost always come from sports or entertainment not sheer hard work of starting a business and contributing to society through employment and skill.

Blacks also have little disregard for human life, look at the crime in black societies, where life is worth nothing. Even in Australia the aboriginals commit far more crime and violent crime than the general per capita population.

Unfortunately in Western societies today you are worse being called a racist than if you are called a paedophile. In South Africa there are jobs advertised as black only or affirmative action whereby no whites will get the job. Already they are passing students in schools and university who don’t make the grade which will only lead to that country becoming a future “African Basket case”

Look at Zimbabwe and how a prosperous country was taken over by a gang leader, a thug and a classic example of what black societies are, around the world.

So go ahead write your socks off about how racist I am, go and ban me! Yet what I write is true one only need to look at ANY black society around the world so all you bleeding heart libertarians and lefties keep ignoring the problem and it wil remain. Until blacks can get their own lives together, the longer their cities, health and civilisation will remain in the dark ages like the above photos show. Man may have evolved _from_ Africa but he certainly never evolved _in_ Africa!


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## PresidentBjork (Apr 29, 2007)

Haiti has a proud history, the first slave colony to throw of the shackles of colonialism. Inspired by the same promises of egalitarianism and freedom that rung in the ears of their French contemporaries across the Atlantic, they gained liberation. It is a shame that the same bigotry and racism, that had lead to enslavement, had to reappear so quickly, to turn Haiti into a pariah nation for so long.

What to do? - well it was seem obvious that cancellation of the country's debt would be a first step. Nearly half of the country's $1.3 billion dollar debt was accrued by the former president Duvalier over 29 years to finance his lavish lifestyle. A debt relief program from the IMF will go ahead, but not until 2009, during which time another $138 million dollars will have to paid by Haiti, money that should be going to social and infrastructure projects.

Secondly, Haiti's economy is 70% agriculture. Unfortunately, poor farming techniques in this tropical region and overpopulation has lead to vast deforestation resulting in severe desertification. The remaining soil has been washed of nutrients, and the water table has lowered as natural water traps have been destroyed. Unemployment has now reached 50% and naturally the young unemployed men have moved to the city. Show me any place in the world, which can have 50% unemployment and not have crime, - and I'll show you a unicorn. Money should be invested in education programs, equipment and new farming techniques to restore the land's fecundity.
Such projects have proved successful in Costa Rica, where supervised land management and protection of remaining forest has increased farming yields significantly, whilst still being sustainable. .

Thanks for these photos, everyone - of course every country has more than one side to it. I'm glad to have seen a little bit of Haiti here.
However, to dismiss these problems, with the same specious arguments, and endless platitudes about race and personal responsibility, means that they are just going to keep happening over and over and over again. 

BTW, most of Zimbabwe's economic growth took place during the 80's, after the fall of the White dominated government of Ian Smith. It is lamentable to see the country fall under totalitarianism and hardship again, but surely, it is not only African nations that have suffered from such problems?
Did it not take Europe 500 years to leave the backwardness and warfare of the Middle Ages?


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## MuddyZehbra32 (Jan 23, 2005)

wow; pictures like those are probably my favorite....the condition of that area in the first few picture are absolutl unbearable and inhumane. i=ashfoafoihflksdlkfsldfsdifosdf. : (


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## Universal Soulja (Mar 16, 2007)

Rizzato said:


> in this situation I would say this would be the right thing to do..
> these people need proper shelter and water-immediately.
> our national debt situation is just ABSURD.
> (and going up by the minute, helping Iraq to become a strong ALLY of the u.s....bordering Iran)
> ...


I agree with this statement %100


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## Aztec Eagle (Sep 11, 2006)

*Race*



twingo1 said:


> One may call me whatever they want. The fact is, I was born in South Africa and since moved to Australia because the country has gone to hell.
> 
> Every black society around the world is an absolute failure. Call me what you may but the simple truth is. Blacks, blame everyone else, over slavery, racism, colonialism etc etc when they should say "that is the past it is time to move on." It is not the US or Japan or Australia’s role to bail out these waste cases and the problems in Sudan or Rwanda testify to this.
> 
> ...


I understand both of you that in the big picture Black ruled societys have NOT been succesfull, and im will not judge you or brand you as a racist,they are valid questions and you have valid points.

But the question still remains WHY? are they not succesfull or even moving foward? 

I truly do not belive its because they are inferior or less inteligent or that race accounts for that, wen i lived in Beverly Hills CA, i knew some fine,very inteligent Black individuals that really set them self appart from other black people from other parts of Los Angeles,and from my own experiance i came to belive that it was just they way they were brought up.
There parents,education and sorroundings really play a decisive role in the end result of each individual and there impact on society.

A person either Black,White,Brown or Yellow that lives in a Ghetto or poor war stricken society will mostly turn out to be a poorly educated person that with little or no way of making a decent living will turn in to mostly criminal or negative activities for him available in those same places to achive hes goal of a supposed succesfull life.

The only reall way out for any country or individual to prosper and have a succesfull society is education.

Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi


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## twingo1 (Jul 2, 2007)

Marco,

Yes I think you have a valid point. Growing up in South Africa there were blacks, just like today who rise above. I don't for one second think it is that they are an inferior race.

What I do think is that their culture prevents a society. It lacks harmony, and while they still blame others for their ills. well they will not move forward. 

We have to be idiots to cancel their debt!

In Australia our prime minister, flew in a very old 707 for years, while driving a run of the mill car. Australia is one of he richest countries on earth. In Africa we will cancel the debt and as you may have seen, these rulers will go out and buy fleets of Mercedes and Lear jets! This is just like the music videos that idolise black culture of one individual with gold and cars and woman at the expense of any of their society/community. How many rappers with lots of money today will be begging in 25 years?

No way would we cancel debt, western countries aren't that stupid.

BTW in response to Zimbabwe, the wealth came from the white farmers not the government's steps in the 80's it was the government's steps in the 2000's (by taking away the white farms) that has killed the country.

Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration). With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.

Ask yourself these 2 simple questions:

Why even in western countries are black areas dirtier, decaying and rundown when similar poor white areas are cleaner with people who can have pride and hope in their lives?

Why can a black person or woman walk down almost any neighbourhood without feeling threatened, while a white person walking through even a moderately safe black neighbourhood has to be fearful?


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## Saigoneseguy (Mar 6, 2005)

Haiti doesn't look very bad, no?


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

^ Wow Twingo, I'm really trying to hold back my anger right now. You clearly know how to speak fluently out of your ass. 

First of all you are buying way too much into the media. Just because you see black people and gangsters with gold chains and gats in music videos or movies doesn't mean that the majority of people actually live like that. If that is your perception of reality wake up, cause you are a retard! Should I assume that all white people only live for sex drugs and rock and roll cause that's what MTV tells me? Or how bout all the violent classic mobster movies? What about all the corporate corruption(think white CEOs) that has taken place in recent years. Gee, I guess all white people are violent corrupt drug addicted mobsters. I guess the major difference between me and you is that I'm not an idiot, or a racist for that matter.



> Why even in western countries are black areas dirtier, decaying and rundown when similar poor white areas are cleaner with people who can have pride and hope in their lives?


If you are referring to Amercica have you ever heard of a term called racial SEGREGATION? Enlighten yourself:


> The FHA was operated in a racially discriminatory manner since its inception in 1937 and set itself up as the "protector of all white neighborhoods," using its field agents to "keep Negroes and other minorities from buying houses in white neighborhoods."[21] Evidence also indicates that the federal government used interstate highway and urban renewal programs to segregate those blacks that had previously lived in more racially diverse communities.[22] Conse quently, these schemes increased the concentration of poverty where it has festered ever since and has caused the federal government to be labeled as "most influential in creating and maintaining residential segregation."[23]





> What I do think is that their culture prevents a society. It lacks harmony, and while they still blame others for their ills. well they will not move forward.


If this statement is not racist I don't know what is.



> We have to be idiots to cancel their debt!


Guess what? You are an idiot! You've already proven that.

Ask yourself this question: Is it ethically and morally correct for wealthy countries, who's empires were built on the backs of slavery to deny financial aid and debt relief to the very nations in which they enslaved or helped impoverish?


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

twingo1 said:


> One may call me whatever they want. The fact is, I was born in South Africa and since moved to Australia because the country has gone to hell.


You're a saffie?

That explains it at least partially.



> Every black society around the world is an absolute failure. Call me what you may but the simple truth is. Blacks, blame everyone else, over slavery, racism, colonialism etc etc when they should say "that is the past it is time to move on." It is not the US or Japan or Australia’s role to bail out these waste cases and the problems in Sudan or Rwanda testify to this.


You're sure about that?

I tend to measure major improvements based on the Human development index, the most reliable standard of any nations standard of living available.

Looking at that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

In the "high" category I find Barbados, The Seychelles, St. Kitts and Nevis, The bahamas, trinidad and Tobago, and antigua and barbuda.

In terms of their living standards, they finish ahead of nations like Russia. Barbaods is only slightly behind portugal.

Do you *really* think that classifies a failure?

Going even further down the list-Dominica, St. Lucia, St. Vincent on the Grenadines, Jamaica, grenada...all are in the medium category, right alongside nations like Turkey(considered by some to be a future economic powerhouse). They aren't failures by any standard.

Haiti is really the only nation in the caribbean that could actually be classified as "a failure".

Before you go and classify Jamaica and all those other natins as failures, let me bring you back to prior HDI statistics. I've obtained the measurements for South Africa PRIOR to 1994-during apartheid. guess what I found?

SA's levels of human development have always been directly on par(not even surpassing) the levels realized by black nations like Jamaica.

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statisti...ty_ds_JAM.html

HDI by year

Jamaica:

Human development index, 1975 0.687 
Human development index, 1980 0.695 
Human development index, 1985 0.699 
Human development index, 1990 0.719 
Human development index, 1995 0.725 
Human development index, 2000 0.737 
Human development index, 2004 0.724 

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/countries/data_sheets/cty_ds_ZAF.html

South Africa:

Human development index, 1975 0.653 
Human development index, 1980 0.673 
Human development index, 1985 0.703 
Human development index, 1990 0.735 
Human development index, 1995 0.741 
Human development index, 2000 0.691 
Human development index, 2004 0.653 

South Africa, even prior to 1994, has never actually been much more developed than Jamaica. For a time, in fact, Jamaica was *ahead* of it. This is suprising, considering the fact that people like you consider apartheid SA to have been a more developed country, a point that you use to back up your statements "modern day black ruled sa is worse because blacks are in control".

And yet, there are black nations worldwide which have matched it. Go figure.



> Look at Asia e.g. Singapore, the Asian mentality is, "Right, let's get educated, and let's stop blaming others for our woes and start blaming ourselves. Once this is fixed we can get on with moving forward."


You really don't think there are blacks on this planet who think similarly, do you? 



> Black societies, even in America are poorer and worse off,


Not totally true, as I just showed.



> A tribal or gangland nature where an individual would rather look good and lose than look bad and win, how many blacks are more interested in music and sports compared to maths or a university education not based on sport scholarships?


I agree, that culture isn't any good...but you are wrong in saying thatthere are no black societies that have transcended it.



> America is littered with people having nothing more than hunger for a better life coming from nothing and making a huge success. Just look at the Italians, Irish, Jews, Indians, Persians the list goes on and on.


What about the black immigrants? Did you bother to research them? Or do you just hate black people so much that you'll paint them negatively even if you don't have all the facts?

Read this article.

http://www.africaresource.com/content/view/235/68/



> _Do African immigrants make the smartest Americans? The question may sound outlandish, but if you were judging by statistics alone, you could find plenty of evidence to back it up.
> 
> In a side-by-side comparison of 2000 census data by sociologists including John R. Logan at the Mumford Center, State University of New York at Albany, black immigrants from Africa averaged the highest educational attainment of any population group in the country, including whites and Asians.
> 
> ...


Want to revise your statement?

And do you also really think that, not even counting black immigrants, that there are not any black americans who have a positive attitude?



> Blacks barely even make the billionaire list despite being almost 30% of the population.


You're off yet again. Blacks are only about 13-14% of the US population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American#Demographics

Try again.



> Those that do almost always come from sports or entertainment not sheer hard work of starting a business and contributing to society through employment and skill.


Oporah, Robert Johnson, Tokyo Sexwale...

I think you're a bit off here to. 



> Blacks also have little disregard for human life, look at the crime in black societies, where life is worth nothing. Even in Australia the aboriginals commit far more crime and violent crime than the general per capita population.


LOL

Comparative criminology-learn about it.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/france.html

France's Crime rate: The rate for all index offenses combined was 4434.51 for France, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA. 

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/africa/botswana.html

Botswana's Crime Rate: The rate for all index offenses combined was 1,338.54 for Botswana, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4160.51 for USA

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/namerica/barbados.html

Barbados' Crime Rate: The rate for all index offenses combined was 2364.94 for Barbados, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA. 

Look at that-in just a couple minutes, i was able to show that not all black nations are, in fact, lawless.

At least, not unless you consider France to be lawless.



> In South Africa there are jobs advertised as black only or affirmative action whereby no whites will get the job. Already they are passing students in schools and university who don’t make the grade which will only lead to that country becoming a future “African Basket case”


Well, apartheid didn't help the situation, did it?



> Look at Zimbabwe and how a prosperous country was taken over by a gang leader, a thug and a classic example of what black societies are, around the world.


Zimababwe? prosperous?

Oh, you mean under white rule back in 1975 when it was called "Rhodesia".

Lets look at how "prosperous" Rhodesia was.

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/countries/data_sheets/cty_ds_ZWE.html

Human development index, 1975 0.548 

That measurement was taken 5 years before blacks ever came to power there.

Lets see how that compares to black nations today:

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/indicators/16.html

Bahamas: .825
Barbados: .879
Seychelles: .842
St. Kitts and nevis: .825
Trinidad and Tobago: .809
Antigua and barbuda: .808
Dominica: .793
St. Lucia: .790
Grenada: .762
St. Vincent: .759
Dominican Republic: .751
Guyana: .725
Jamaica: .724
Cape verde: .722
Equatorial Guinea: .653
Modern Day South Africa: .653
Gabon: .633
Namibia: .626
Botswana: .570
Comoros: .556
Ghana: .532

Look at that! Your "prosperous" Rhodesia barely outdoes modern day Ghana.

That leads me to believe that these "horrid" African nations you're talking about really aren't as bad as you say.



> So go ahead write your socks off about how racist I am, go and ban me!


No, I don't want them to ban you.

In fact, I'll ask them now:

*Moderators, please don't ban this user...yet.*

I want you to respond to what I've written here. Let's see if your little racialist "theories" stand up to the real facts.



> Yet what I write is true one only need to look at ANY black society around the world


Like Barbados?hno: 



> so all you bleeding heart libertarians and lefties keep ignoring the problem and it wil remain. Until blacks can get their own lives together, the longer their cities, health and civilisation will remain in the dark ages like the above photos show. Man may have evolved _from_ Africa but he certainly never evolved _in_ Africa!


LOL...right. You white nationalist/racialist types all sound the same.


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

twingo1 said:


> Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration).


No inspiration?

half of the technology they used to get across the sea came from the Middle East. The Astrolabe, the new sails, shipbuilding techniques...the compass!

Without technology from the middle east and china, the age of exploration never would have taken place.



> With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.


There are a few countries making progress.

Uganda is one. Look at the HDI:

Human development index, 1985 0.414 
Human development index, 1990 0.411 
Human development index, 1995 0.413 
Human development index, 2000 0.474 
Human development index, 2004 0.502 

Those are some of the largest single increases you'll see in the HDI. In 10 years, Uganada has went from one of the least developed nations on the planet, to entering the "medium development"(.500 or above) category.

Progress.

Here is yet another one, Ghana:http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/countries/data_sheets/cty_ds_GHA.html

Human development index, 1975 0.438 
Human development index, 1980 0.467 
Human development index, 1985 0.482 
Human development index, 1990 0.511 
Human development index, 1995 0.531 
Human development index, 2000 0.555 
Human development index, 2004 0.532 

1980: Lowly developed nation.

2004: Ghana is in the medium category, and is poised to become a middle income nation in just 15 years.

Improvement exists in Africa, you just like to ignore it.

That, or you don't really know what you're talking about to begin with.



> Ask yourself these 2 simple questions:
> 
> Why even in western countries are black areas dirtier, decaying and rundown when similar poor white areas are cleaner with people who can have pride and hope in their lives? Why can a black person or woman walk down almost any neighbourhood without feeling threatened, while a white person walking through even a moderately safe black neighbourhood has to be fearful?


Yet more misconceptions.

White people have no problems walking through entire countries like Barbados or the Bahamas, much less smaller neighborhoods. You're less likely to be murdered in Barbados than you are in France.

The same applies to neighborhoods. Not all black neighborhoods are impassable.


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## Aztec Eagle (Sep 11, 2006)

*Haiti*



twingo1 said:


> Marco,
> 
> Yes I think you have a valid point. Growing up in South Africa there were blacks, just like today who rise above. I don't for one second think it is that they are an inferior race.
> 
> ...


Twingo:

I will respectfully disagree with your statement that Blacks or Africans can not govern themselfs ,you said ´THERE CULTURE PREVENTS A SOCIETY.¨

From the ancient history of Africa's great empires, it can be clearly seen that Africa and Africans have contributed to what we now consider Western Civilization and society. All along the West African coast, Africans had developed various systems of government, from the extended family to regional empires and the Village State. Many of them consisting of those attributes of a modern state (armies, courts, etc.). According to Melville J. Herskovits, a known anthropologist, "of the areas inhabited by non-literate people, Africa exhibits the great incidence of complex governmental structures. could mobilize resources and concentrate power very effective, these African monarchies, which are more to be compared with Europe of the middle ages then referred to the common conception of the 'primitive' state."

Ghana was one of the great African Empires, various countries in Europe were dependent on imports of gold before the discovery of America. The "civilization" of Ghana was advanced to such a level that a system of taxation was imposed on every load of goods entering or leaving the empire. Trading, therefore, was a highly organized system which the wealth and importance of Ghana was based.
According to El-farzari, an Arab writer of that period, the people of Ghana were also successful in overpowering their advanced methods of warfare and their weapons, which were swords and lances.

Other example is during the decline of Mali, the Songhai Empire emerged. In about 1464.

The Soghai Empire was very organized and instituted a system of discipline government. created a number of central offices, similar to our contemporary government departments to oversee justice, finance, agriculture and other matters of importance in the affairs of the state. trade in gold from Sudan region continued to flow northward into Europe.
It imported manufactured goods, clothes, and salt from Spain and Germany. It conquer Timbuktu and it prosper,Timbuktu became a greater center of learning. Its university, the first in Africa , was so famous that scholars came to it from all over the Muslim world, Europe and Asia. 

In Timbuktu you could find numerous judges, doctors, clerics, all receiving good salaries from the king. The learning centers in Timbuktu had large and valuable collections of manuscripts in several languages, including Greek and Latin.

I do NOT belive Blacks lack the skill to became self governed and create a succesfull society,i also belive that YES! we need to help them create a succesfull state.,if others prosper with out help(Europe¨inspiration¨ from Greeks,Midle East etc) ,well...so be it! But this people need any help they can get.

I do agree with you,in that we do not have to give them money,since is just not only a money problem.
And your right to say that western countrys will not forgive debt,but is not a question of how stupid they are,is how greety western countrys are.

Mexico has send to Haiti hundreds of tons of Corn,sugar,Beans, Medicines and Doctor, engineers and water purification plants a Mexican Hospital Navy ship was also send out to help out the civilian population.

My country,Mexico is always tried to help Haiti but sometimes is hard after sending hundreds of tons of food they were badly destribuated or they never made it to the hands of people who need it the most,thanks to some locals.

I belive the rather giving them money or food we need to help them establish a good stable democracy and help them built up the education level,erradicate extreme military factions,to bring peace and harmony to this nations.

I really belive in a old prover that says “Give me a fish and I eat for a day. Teach me to fish and I eat for a lifetime.”

Thank you.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi


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## Barnardgirl (Dec 21, 2006)

It is the job of France and the US to help build Haiti, esp. France who robbed most of its natural resources and made them paid their for their independence at such a high cost. However, since those countries don't really care about Haiti's progress, I think perhaps the UN should step in and train Haitians how to govern themselves, because giving aid every year is not really helping them. Perhaps the UN can take care of Haiti as it has been doing w/ Kosovo.


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

i have to admit i know little about africa except griaff. still very poor there, i wanna a reason. china is the same poor 20 years ago, but not looks that mess and dirty.


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## Bulevardi (Jul 19, 2007)

:applause:


hornnieguy said:


> The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.
> 
> Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.


A-men to that ! :applause:


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## twingo1 (Jul 2, 2007)

This will be my last post, as I can see that the despite everything I have mentioned there are still some that can't see the pictures in this forum that speak for themselves. 

First, Vanman I don't see the link of MTV. The point I was trying to make was one of, a leader inevitably better off than his contemporaries. Whether this is politicians or rap stars. (Just look at the photos in this image) The rap point only seeks to glorify this and encourage future generational despair.

Vanman, I agree with you in regards to not all races are perfect. Whites have more serial killers and there are different types of crime depending on one's situation. My point was that while it may be one mobster or one serial killer the numbers per capita of population among that single race is different.

As for you quote



> Ask yourself this question: Is it ethically and morally correct for wealthy countries, who's empires were built on the backs of slavery to deny financial aid and debt relief to the very nations in which they enslaved or helped impoverish?


This has got to be the biggest garbage I have ever read! The amount of money wealthy countries have and continue to spend easily exceeds any amount benefited. The resulting problems from slavery are a testament to this.

To answer DanteXavier, I am familiar with these stats. I am very familiar with the Caribbean countries. These are wikipedia figures and while they are based on a tourism and service industry economy none have managed to make the leap from 1975 like countries in Asia! 
The stats for South Africa include the majority black population so of course it would be at similar levels to Jamaica. 

Last but not least I am extremely familiar with Logan's study. And while I take his research seriously, the link still baffles me as to how come they can not influence their own societies to be a better one? 

I was mistaken about the US African population, do me a favour compare the 13-14% with the black prison population won't you. I'll even give you a non wikipedia link
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

The facts are black prison populations are many many times higher than their representation to population. Again we blame wealthy nations, foreign debt, war in Iraq etc etc for my ills. What I have constantly said is "it is time to take responsibility for one's own actions. Haiti and others must start looking inward rather than blaming everyone. 

I am aware of the HDI figures I have seen them many times before. These horrid nations who you don't think are so bad are reviewed over and over in the photos in this forum.

I am not


> LOL...right. You white nationalist/racialist types all sound the same.


I am merely tired of the poor me syndrome synonymous with black societies.
I am tired of the belief that the only reason the west is successful is because it was built on the backs of poor souls and the west would be nowhere with out slavery or pillage! Timbuktu, Mali and Ghana kingdoms SOLD their OWN people to the Europeans. Just like many are sold out today.
I am tired of people who have all the opportunity in countries like the US or Australia or France not bothering to get their hands dirty and work. Like the Italians, Jews, Indians and Asians who have all had very tough histories but risen to the top. Where are the black Jerry Yang's or Sergey Brin's? These guys have barely been in the US yet look at the IT contribution. Where are the blacks in nobel prizes (excluding peace), finance, economics, medicine, entrepreneurship, and dozens of other fields. Yes there may be an individual here or there but the % compared to their population is small. 

As mentioned I don't want to upset people, so this will be my last post on this topic. I just want to bring people's attention that it is YOUR, not anyone else not any nation to solve your problems! The US can't solve New Orleans mess, Haiti and the rest of the black world has little hope if it wants a bail out! The easiest way to fix your problems is to fix them yourselves!


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## twingo1 (Jul 2, 2007)

*LINK*

A government link about prison populations

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm


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## Spaulding97 (Dec 7, 2005)

Why should America do anything about it? That's how we got into this mess in Iraq. Plus, I thought every country hated America for meddling in other countries business? Don't get me wrong, it looks bad over there and I feel bad, but France should do it. We have enough problems over here as it is.


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## PresidentBjork (Apr 29, 2007)

twingo1 said:


> BTW in response to Zimbabwe, the wealth came from the white farmers not the government's steps in the 80's it was the government's steps in the 2000's (by taking away the white farms) that has killed the country.
> 
> Comparing black societies now to the middle ages shows you are not well read or lack any knowledge of history. While there were many small city states the ability to trade and grow for a common good eventually led to the age of exploration and renaissance (remember Europe had no inspiration). With all the communication and ability to see the results of places like Thailand, China and Indonesia, Africa should have a few countries making progress and apart from Botswana the African representatives still can't get their act together.


In response to your first point, this is not necessarily so, most investment during that time went into infrastructure and natural resource mining. It is obvious the decision to expel white farmers was a populist move upon Mugabe's part to cement his position.

Secondly, please read more carefully, I did not compare contemporary African societies with medieval Europe. It was a merely a response to someones vague statement about development takings 30-50 years. Anyway, the influence of an already idustrialised powers does not necessarily help a developing country. When an advanced civilization has met one less advanced, history demonstrates how it is almost inevitable that the former will exploit and damage the latter. Rome in relation to Celtic Europe, European settlers in North America.

It is understandable that constantly blaming past evils of slavery may be seen as an excuse. To be honest, it can annoy me sometimes too if someone denies a proper talk over current African affairs, if I do not grovel to the full extent 'white guilt' should allow me to, but try to be empathetic. Imagine if your people had a history of racial slavery, and continuing exploitation, it is an incredible bane to carry.
In addition, in places like South America, crime is the white man's fear, ironic since it was the policies of the white government that created a generation lost young blacks that had no where to go. Try to imagine yourself absolutely barred from all chances of real success, and how frustrating that would be. 
Yes, apartheid ended 13 years ago, but its effects will last for decades if not more.

Equally, economic prejudice, such as in America can effect minorities' chances. 
When eventually, laws were passed to end injustice and institutionalized racism, African Americans, living in cities that they had migrated to in search of jobs, get hit with the full policies of neo-liberalism in which all of those that may be more vulnerable in society suffer. With years of deliberate prejudice, disadvantaged minorities were expected to reach a the same level of success, with most the routes that would enable them to, shut off. Anyway, there a numerous examples of who people have done well for themselves.

All this talk of increased crime amongst minorities is just due to economic disadvantages. But also remember, that it is obvious that blacks get accused more readily,tend to get a stiffer sentence and may be more likely to face prison In America, the majority of people of men on death row convicted of murder are black, event though they are not in the majority of convicted murderers.


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

twingo1 said:


> This will be my last post,


To tired to stay and defend yourself?

How dishonorable.



> To answer DanteXavier, I am familiar with these stats. I am very familiar with the Caribbean countries.


No, you aren't.

You see, if you werer, you probably wouldn't have made such a stupid generalization like this: "Look at any black run country and you'll see-none of them are successful!"

The entire caribbean is doing well save for haiti. And all of those nations are run by blacks(except maybe Cuba). This, combined with your statements, leads me to believe that you actually aren't familiar at all.



> These are wikipedia figures


You really don't know anything, do you?

http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/

They come from the UN, wikipedia just listed them. 

How ignorant can you be? Here you are, yacking on about this, and yet you don't even actually know what you're talking about.hno: 



> and while they are based on a tourism and service industry economy none have managed to make the leap from 1975 like countries in Asia!


WTF are you talking about? They're all developed nations, on par with asia in terms of living standards. I proved that already with the HDI. 

You don't have an argument.



> The stats for South Africa include the majority black population so of course it would be at similar levels to Jamaica.


yeah, because if we only included white Saffies, SA would be a first world nation. The only problem is that they accomplished that by making sure that black saffies stayed in the dumps.



> Last but not least I am extremely familiar with Logan's study. And while I take his research seriously, the link still baffles me as to how come they can not influence their own societies to be a better one?


Most of the caribbean nations are first world(in the "high" category on the HDI). Even a couple of those that aren't(like St. Lucia and Dominica) manage to rank very close to it.

That isn't enough for you, though, is it?



> I was mistaken about the US African population, do me a favour compare the 13-14% with the black prison population won't you. I'll even give you a non wikipedia link
> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm


That link mentions the black incarceration rate.

It doesn't give us the black prison population. 



> The facts are black prison populations are many many times higher than their representation to population.
> 
> Again we blame wealthy nations, foreign debt, war in Iraq etc etc for my ills. What I have constantly said is "it is time to take responsibility for one's own actions. Haiti and others must start looking inward rather than blaming everyone.


Sure they must. i never contended otherwise.

What I am contending are your daft generalizations of blacks and of black societies in general. Haiti has its problems, but you go as far as to say "look at any black society, anywhere and you'll see-every black society is bad!".

As a Jamaican, I find that personally insulting. 



> I am aware of the HDI figures I have seen them many times before.


No, you haven't. 

If you had, and if you'd paid attention, you wouldn't have made so many stupid remarks.



> These horrid nations who you don't think are so bad are reviewed over and over in the photos in this forum.


....WTF? 

Have you seen the photos of the nations I'm talking about?

Why don't you just head over to SSC Africa, view the namibia, botswana, etc, etc photo threads, and then get back to me when you learn something.



> I am merely tired of the poor me syndrome synonymous with black societies.


Yeah, sure.



> I am tired of the belief that the only reason the west is successful is because it was built on the backs of poor souls and the west would be nowhere with out slavery or pillage!


Not all successful western nations were even built on slavery(look at Norway and Sweden), so such a statement couldn't be completely true anyhow.



> Timbuktu, Mali and Ghana kingdoms SOLD their OWN people to the Europeans. Just like many are sold out today.


Timbuktu wasn't a kingdom-it was a city within the Kingdom of Ghana, and later the Kingdom of Mali.
And yes they traded slaves, but not primarily to the Europeans. The slaves went mostly to the arabs in a form of indentured servitude.

The ignorance of history you show is mind boggling.



> I am tired of people who have all the opportunity in countries like the US or Australia or France not bothering to get their hands dirty and work. Like the Italians, Jews, Indians and Asians who have all had very tough histories but risen to the top.


Yeah...again ignoring the black immigrants.

I don't think you care about them. You just don't like blacks all that much.



> Where are the black Jerry Yang's or Sergey Brin's?


Oprah? Robert Johnson? Richard Parsons? Kenneth Chennault? E. Stanley O'Neal? Tokyo Sexwale?

Do you study before you speak?



> These guys have barely been in the US yet look at the IT contribution. Where are the blacks in nobel prizes (excluding peace),


Wole Soyinka, 1986 Literature Prize 
Derek Walcott, 1992 Literature Prize
Toni Morrison, 1993 Literature Prize
Sir William Arthur Lewis, 1979 Economics Prize



> finance,


The CEO of one of the world's largest financial service companies is black.

http://www.ml.com/index.asp?id=7695_8134_8302_13747



> economics,


Sir William Lewis won a nobel prize for it back in 1979.



> medicine,


Charles E. Drew developed improved methods for blood storage during World War 2(1942). His work was critical to the war effort. 

http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-r-drew



> The science and practice of blood transfusion had developed from early work including preserving whole blood in refrigerated storage in World War I (see Oswald Hope Robertson) and the practice of having hospital “blood banks” (see Bernard Fantus) in the mid-1930s. Drew focused his own work[1] on the challenge of separating and storing blood components, particularly blood plasma, as this might extend storage periods. Dr. Drew earned his Doctor of Medical Science degree from Columbia University in 1940, with a doctoral thesis under the title Banked Blood: A Study in Blood Preservation.


And read this to: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n9_v50/ai_17128540




> entrepreneurship,


Described above-there are a number of black CEOs. 



> Yes there may be an individual here or there but the % compared to their population is small.


Prove it.



> As mentioned I don't want to upset people, so this will be my last post on this topic.


Coward.



> I just want to bring people's attention that it is YOUR, not anyone else not any nation to solve your problems! The US can't solve New Orleans mess, Haiti and the rest of the black world has little hope if it wants a bail out! The easiest way to fix your problems is to fix them yourselves!


isn't New orleans kind of part of the US? How is the US not responsible for fixing the hurricane damge, then?:bash:


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## hornnieguy (Jan 5, 2007)

I lived in an upper middle class neighborhood in Los Angles where about 35% were African American (mostly doctors, judges and business people). I was so impressed at the quality of their families, their sense of style, and how well they kept their homes. 

It was their education and values that made this people not their skin color.


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## kenyan24 (Mar 22, 2007)

Thanx dantexavier, im sure youve shut him up. Its sad that at this time and age people still have that kind of mentality.


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## PresidentBjork (Apr 29, 2007)

Good job getting all the facts Dantexavier to negate all that drivel.


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

I would also like to thank you as well Dantexavier. You are very artculate and know your facts. Being half Hatian I was greatly offended by some of the comments made on this thread. I think Twingo needs to travel the world before he makes such gross generalisations about any race. Canada for one is a very integrated, multicultural nation that for the most part respects all cultures equally.(Our Governor General (representative to the queen) is Hatian.) I can't speak for Montreal or Toronto but if you visited Vancouver you would see very few to no black homeless people, despite the fact that there has been wave after wave of African refugees and immigrants (mainly from Sudan)in recent years. It may take a few years to get used to a new society but if it is open and welcoming enough Africans as well as any other race will and do succeed.


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

I must also commend Dante. As a Haitian-American, I too was offended by his ultra-polarized generalizations. 




PresidentBjork said:


> All this talk of increased crime amongst minorities is just due to economic disadvantages. But also remember, that it is obvious that blacks get accused more readily,tend to get a stiffer sentence and may be more likely to face prison


Exactly! And not only that:

http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publ...3/pagerajs.pdf

In 2001, Devah Pager carried out a compelling study of employers responding to an applicant pool if 350 white and black young men, some with and without prison records. He reported that white men *with identical work experience and education*, but had been convicted of a crime were half as likely (17 percent) to receive a call back as those without a criminal record (34 percent). Among, black men the figures were 5 percent and 14 percent respectively.


So, with education and work experience being equal, a black man WITHOUT a criminal record is still LESS LIKELY to get a call back than a white man WITH a record...in THIS century.

Many sociology studies have confirmed that simply "looking inward" is not enough.


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## prolixity (Jun 13, 2007)

hornnieguy said:


> The USA should do something about this poor unfortunate land...instead of spending trillions on wars and inciting terrorists.
> 
> Basic water treatment plants , re-forestation, urban infrastructure , schools , hospitals. A mere 50 billion will do fine.....that's one month's worth of war mongering.


Are you kidding? The USA did do something to Haiti. The pictures you see are the result.


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## twingo1 (Jul 2, 2007)

*world travels*

Vanman,



> I think Twingo needs to travel the world before he makes such gross generalisations about any race


I am only in my early 20's yet I was born in South Africa I have been to:

South Africa
Zimbabwe
Angola
Namibia
Kenya
Egypt

England
Germany
France
Italy
Israel
Jordan
Turkey

Most of the states is the US including the south! and Hawaii
Jamaica
Bahamas
Bermuda
Costa Rica
Virgin Islands
Trinidad & Tobago

Most of Asia
Thailand
Vietnam
Indonesia
Singapore
HK
Malaysia
Most of the Pacific e.g New Caledonia and Vanuata and Fiji

Majority of Australia

The world doesn't lie, experiencing it 1st hand has given me a fair idea.


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## Aztec Eagle (Sep 11, 2006)

hornnieguy said:


> I lived in an upper middle class neighborhood in Los Angles where about 35% were African American (mostly doctors, judges and business people). I was so impressed at the quality of their families, their sense of style, and how well they kept their homes.
> 
> It was their education and values that made this people not their skin color.


Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.

I also belive is the way your raised and educated is what really make a difrence in the life of an individual and there impact on society and NOT race.

In Twingo´s defense he is just out speaking hes point of view and he remained respectfull thru all hes comments with all of us.

Im not saying that you should like what hes point of view is or agree with him.

Remember that Twingo is also a result of hes education and the way he was raised, in a hostil eviroment partly attributed to the legacy of the apartheid and racist separatist state that was South Africa,and that esence of racist belives is still carried there.

Hes also a victim,just like Blacks are of there poor eviroments.

The same happend to young Germans part of the Hitler youth wich some of them were raised to belive in certain racist ideas and propaganda that were so impregnated in there brain that they could never shake it off.

Another recent example of this took place in the United States of America, most Americans that there parents or them lived in a society before the Civil Right Movement wich excluded blacks,Asians and Mexicans most of them have that negative feeling or distrust of these races,and this just took place a few decades ago in the case of Germany it was in the 1940´s and in the U.S. late 1960´s and South Africa the most recent case in 1994.

Lets talk about this issue with a opend mind,is healthy to discuss it in a respectfull and constructive manner.

Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi.



Shot at 2007-07-19
"Petty apartheid": sign on Durban beach in English, Afrikaans and Zulu (1989)

Segregation, United States.

Shot at 2007-07-20


Shot at 2007-07-19


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks for all the commendations, guys, your kind words are appreciated. 



twingo1 said:


> The world doesn't lie, experiencing it 1st hand has given me a fair idea.


You went to a place like Vietnam, and then went to a place like the Bahamas and bermuda and concluded that somehow Vietnam was no problem but those two were?

That statement leads me to doubt your claim...that, or you did go and you just didn't pay a lot of attention.

Not to insult the vietnamese, i respect them...but their country is not lightyears ahead of most of the caribbean like you would foolishly have us believe. According to the HDI, Jamaica has a higher standard of living, much less the Bahamas or Bermuda.

Oh yeah, and since you've decided to show up, respond to my post I addressed to you earlier. You could at least attempt to defend yourself.


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## Occit (Jul 24, 2005)

Aztec Eagle said:


> Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.
> Segregation, United States.
> 
> Shot at 2007-07-20


^^ 

*...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand* :dunno:


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

Occit said:


> ^^
> 
> *...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand* :dunno:


The fools who made up that legislation didn't take those facts into account. :bash:


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## twingo1 (Jul 2, 2007)

*My Defence*

DanteXavier again I am making a generalisation. Which I have been trying to make since my first post!

So instead of swearing (in regards to multiple uses of WTF), calling me names and insulting my intelligence. Let me once again say!

AS A GENERAL STATEMENT!

There are high achievers in every society yet inevitably I don't see the numbers in black societies as a % of population. Ask yourself how many people can name black achievements in sports/entertainment as opposed to the topics I listed before?

If I asked for a sports list you would give me much more names, why can't you give me dozens of names in industry? A few names here or there I won't debate it is the society as a whole.

You ask me to prove it.
do basic searches and you will see that with millions upon millions of black societies the numbers of pathetically small for overall achievement in our modern society. Why is that?

But even if you want to counter this by blaming the salve trade. Ask yourself this:

Name ancient inventions by China?
rudder, compass, gunpowder etc etc
Name ancient inventions by any African country?
?



> Timbuktu wasn't a kingdom-it was a city within the Kingdom of Ghana, and later the Kingdom of Mali.
> And yes they traded slaves, but not primarily to the Europeans. The slaves went mostly to the arabs in a form of indentured servitude.
> 
> The ignorance of history you show is mind boggling.


hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_Trade



> You went to a place like Vietnam, and then went to a place like the Bahamas and bermuda and concluded that somehow Vietnam was no problem but those two were?
> 
> That statement leads me to doubt your claim...that, or you did go and you just didn't pay a lot of attention.
> 
> Not to insult the vietnamese, i respect them...but their country is not lightyears ahead of most of the caribbean like you would foolishly have us believe. According to the HDI, Jamaica has a higher standard of living, much less the Bahamas or Bermuda.


I did not for one second hear any Vietnamese cry POOR ME about a war that was only a few years ago. Even prolixity feel the US owes Haiti something. 

Black societies are still playing the blame game over slavery and what the west has done to them hundreds of years later. YOU (society) weep and cry poor me, look what other's have done. Well our younger generation have had it in chunks! I feel that rather than moving on our kids will be having the same argument. The only thing is in 20 yrs vietnam will have gotten on with business and the HDI will leave comparitive societies in the dust, while haiti and the like will still be blaming others!

a final point to ponder, if these societies are doing so well and thriving so nicely, WHY do we need to cancel debt? Why is bono carrying on and on? Why did we not need to bail out the philipines or thailand? yet will have to bail out others?

That's it I am done!


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## twingo1 (Jul 2, 2007)

*My own backyard!*

www.smh.com.au/.../2007/06/21/1182019286794.html

Read this from only a couple of weeks ago!

I am just about to finish a Masters Degree. Our government has thrown tonnes of money to help. Black societies have almost all services free. They can do medicine on much much lower marks than my contemporaries yet as a society they fall further and further behind. People are tired of societies not progressing when given all the opportunity to go forward. My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

^ You are entitled to your own opinion but basically what you are saying over and over again in different words is that Africans and blacks are inferior. Like I said before if that does not constitute racism I don't know what does. You are in denial.


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

twingo1 said:


> My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.


You only see what you allow yourself to see!


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## Barnardgirl (Dec 21, 2006)

twingo1 said:


> www.smh.com.au/.../2007/06/21/1182019286794.html
> 
> Read this from only a couple of weeks ago!
> 
> I am just about to finish a Masters Degree. Our government has thrown tonnes of money to help. Black societies have almost all services free. They can do medicine on much much lower marks than my contemporaries yet as a society they fall further and further behind. People are tired of societies not progressing when given all the opportunity to go forward. My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.



Are you white? Because I have heard most of the people in South Africa are black, so it would really surprise me if a black person would talk like that about their own race.


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

twingo1 said:


> DanteXavier again I am making a generalisation. Which I have been trying to make since my first post!


And that is *exactly* why people get pissed at you.



> There are high achievers in every society yet inevitably I don't see the numbers in black societies as a % of population. Ask yourself how many people can name black achievements in sports/entertainment as opposed to the topics I listed before?


I think most people are aware of the achievements by the black CEOs I mentioned(Oprah, Tokyo Sexwale, etc, etc).



> If I asked for a sports list you would give me much more names, why can't you give me dozens of names in industry? A few names here or there I won't debate it is the society as a whole.


I did it.



> You ask me to prove it.
> do basic searches and you will see that with millions upon millions of black societies the numbers of pathetically small for overall achievement in our modern society. Why is that?


Alright, here goes then. It's a good thing I compiled this list a lot earlier on.



> _Christopher Chetsanga
> 
> Discovered two enzymes involved in the repair of damaged DNA:
> Formamido-pyrimidine DNA glycosylase that removes damaged 7-methylguanine from DNA (1979).
> ...


Those aren't all of the achievements-there are many more than that. That is simply all that I was able to scrape together a while ago in like 25 minutes. I'll look for more later.



> Name ancient inventions by China?
> rudder, compass, gunpowder etc etc
> Name ancient inventions by any African country?


Africans were the first to mine on a large scale(90,000 years ago, in Swaziland), they were the first to fish, and they invented the baby sling. While I'm at it, I should probably note that metallurgy in Africa arrived there prior to it's eventual arrival in northern Europe(in other words, Africans in places like Sudan were working metal before such practices ever arrived in britain, Scandinavia, etc, etc).

http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/badarians.html



> hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_Trade


Way to go! You just cited a link that does *absolutely nothing* to disprove my statement!

In case you forgot, my statement was that the Sahelian Kingdoms(Mali, Songhai, Ghana) did not trade a large amount of their slaves to the Europeans. Those were different folks-the Beni, the Yoruba, and numerous Asante states closer to the coast, as well as the Kongo(in Angola).



> I did not for one second hear any Vietnamese cry POOR ME about a war that was only a few years ago.


You mean 35 years ago?



> Black societies are still playing the blame game over slavery and what the west has done to them hundreds of years later. YOU (society) weep and cry poor me, look what other's have done. Well our younger generation have had it in chunks! I feel that rather than moving on our kids will be having the same argument.


I told you already, I don't disagree with the fact that the blame game is no good.

I simply disagree with your characterizations and generalizations about blacks as a whole, and I will continue to as long as you foolishly continue to directly insult us without knowing what you're even actually talking about.



> The only thing is in 20 yrs vietnam will have gotten on with business and the HDI will leave comparitive societies in the dust, while haiti and the like will still be blaming others!


And this is what I'm talking about. The automatic, and completely un-factually based assumption that Vietnam is going to improve, and not a single black society will do the same.



> a final point to ponder, if these societies are doing so well and thriving so nicely, WHY do we need to cancel debt? Why is bono carrying on and on? Why did we not need to bail out the philipines or thailand? yet will have to bail out others?


Because they had to borrow heavily in the past. Just to show how foolish you are for not even bothering to research this subject fully:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

Places like croatia have more debt than Angola. Argentina owes more than Sudan. 
African countries are constantly paying off their debt-it's part of why they're in the situations they are in, this debt does not often get cancelled. Same story in jamaica-the government there spend a disproportionate amount of the budget paying off all of these debts.
The reason the EU is angry at China right now is because they are coming in and helping African nations cancel these debts, plus they are offering loans for free. The EU doesn't cancel debts that often-that's why they aren't happy about China doing it.

And, btw, Nigeria already paid off its debt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4926966.stm

Note, I said *paid*. Not cancelled.



> That's it I am done!


LOL, for your sake I hope not. That was a poor show.


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

Barnardgirl said:


> Are you white? Because I have heard most of the people in South Africa are black, so it would really surprise me if a black person would talk like that about their own race.


Yes, he's a white south african, or "saffie" as some like to call them. He admitted it a little earlier in the thread.


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

twingo1 said:


> www.smh.com.au/.../2007/06/21/1182019286794.html
> 
> Read this from only a couple of weeks ago!
> 
> I am just about to finish a Masters Degree. Our government has thrown tonnes of money to help. Black societies have almost all services free. They can do medicine on much much lower marks than my contemporaries yet as a society they fall further and further behind. People are tired of societies not progressing when given all the opportunity to go forward. My comments don't come from hate they come from observation.


Your link doesn't even work.:bash:


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## Barnardgirl (Dec 21, 2006)

Good job DanteXavier, I am not surprised about Twingo's perception of blacks...I have heard that many white South Africans think the same...one would think that after all the crimes and abuses that blacks have been subjected to, there would be at least some recognition of their achievements...


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## Aztec Eagle (Sep 11, 2006)

*Hate*



Occit said:


> ^^
> 
> *...There are whites Spanish and whites Mexicans so...i really don't understand* :dunno:



Yes theres White Mexicans and Mestizo like me half European(Italian-Spanish) and Native Americans and we are still victms of racism,just like many others(Irish,Italians,Asians,Blacks etc.) .

Your trying to look at the problem in the basis that it has to do with skin color,yes skin color is part of it but hate and racism manifest itself in many forms,is caotic and makes no sense but the end result is the same...hate.

Just look at the Jews they look white and very organized and civilazed,yet they were also victims of racism.
Racism dosent have a face or color is a sentiment and its FEAR and fear leads to anger,hate and death.

I had a aquaintance that he was a white South African and he also would speak out in the same manner as twingo does about Blacks in hes country and how the country was now worst then wen the white minority ruled,i hope that NOT all white S.A. thing this way.


Thank You.

Marco A. Camacho Presichi


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## WolfHound (Jun 28, 2006)

Wow, this thread is very racist. Haiti is under devloped however countries need to figure out to fix their own problems rather than rely on other countries. I think developed countries helping poorer countries only dampen the poorer countries ability to be self reliable. But cool pics.


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## Occit (Jul 24, 2005)

Aztec Eagle said:


> Yes theres White Mexicans and Mestizo like me half European(Italian-Spanish) and Native Americans and we are still victms of racism,just like many others(Irish,Italians,Asians,Blacks etc.) .
> 
> Your trying to look at the problem in the basis that it has to do with skin color,yes skin color is part of it but hate and racism manifest itself in many forms,is caotic and makes no sense but the end result is the same...hate.
> 
> ...


*Good analysis thanks! *


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## skyscraper_1 (May 30, 2004)

WolfHound said:


> Wow, this thread is very racist. Haiti is under devloped however countries need to figure out to fix their own problems rather than rely on other countries. I think developed countries helping poorer countries only dampen the poorer countries ability to be self reliable. But cool pics.


 That is not true, poor countries do need helpto start developing in a sustainable way. The amount of help the rich countries is really tiny.


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

WolfHound said:


> Wow, this thread is very racist. Haiti is under devloped however countries need to figure out to fix their own problems rather than rely on other countries. I think developed countries helping poorer countries only dampen the poorer countries ability to be self reliable. But cool pics.


I'm not going to get into it again but if a developed country has had a role in the impoverishment of a developing country in the past then that developed country should have to pay it's 'debt' to the developing one.


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## DanteXavier (Jan 6, 2007)

Aztec Eagle said:


> ,i hope that NOT all white S.A. thing this way.


Don't worry, they don't all act like twingo.


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## xDieselJockx (Jul 5, 2005)

Aztec Eagle said:


> Hornieguy,i truly understand what your talking about.
> 
> I also belive is the way your raised and educated is what really make a difrence in the life of an individual and there impact on society and NOT race.
> 
> ...



How can we be so sure that these pictures whre really shot 2007-07-19/20? you just typed it. And yeah? What about the white mexicans, white Spanish and white south africans??? Caucasian looking asians????


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## xDieselJockx (Jul 5, 2005)

HirakataShi said:


> Back to the topic of Haiti: it is terribly unfortunate that these pictures represent the reality of life for the average Haitian.
> 
> 
> 
> Haiti is poorer than many African countries. I wonder what would have happened if the US, UK, Australia, Japan and others had spent USD$300 billion + on reconstructing the poorer countries in their backyards rather than waging warfare in Iraq? Or if France, Germany, Russia, China, Canada, New Zealand and other persistent critics of the US, UK, Australia and Japan stepped up to the plate and truly helped advance democracy and development in a Least Developed Country rather than criticise from the sidelines? Of course I do not expect any country to do these things, because humanity is not as noble as we like to think of ourselves.



It would be nice if most developed countries would assist this foresaken land. Unlike some members where who commented about the US solely needs to help Haiti with its poverty, it should not be all the rich countries of the world who needs to pitch in.

First of the poverty here in this country was brought about by a widespread corruptions with in their systems,political instability, power struggle, civil war and many other factors. The people of Haiti needs to be educated so they can succeed and be selfsufficient.


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## khalek (Feb 10, 2007)

man i know this country is beautiful... i would like it more if u didnt post the poor pics and ugly pics..... thank you


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## Matthias Offodile (Apr 16, 2005)

Haiti was the first country that gained independance in South America! It is independent for more than 200 years now, I wonder what went wrong there??? Why hasn´t the country managed to get on its feet during all those centuries??? Maybe something in the moral fabric of society is wrong! It is such a shame to look at the pics and compare it to other Island nations in that region. Numerous countries in Africa that gained independence more than 150 years later than Haiti look much better and organized than Haiti. 

Although I am against any sort of foreign occupation but maybe the best is that Haiti becomes a UN protectorat for a while! The country is too poor to help itself and institutions doen´t seem to work at all!

Really I am restless after skimming through those pics, I wouldn´t have expected Haiti in such a bad condition!


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## Matthias Offodile (Apr 16, 2005)

Twingo1, are you South African?

Dantexavier, I read some of your replies, very good and balanced!


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

Matthias Offodile said:


> Haiti was the first country that gained independance in South America! It is independent for more than 200 years now, I wonder what went wrong there??? Why hasn´t the country managed to get on its feet during all those centuries???



Haiti was the first and only successful slave revolt. The first free black nation. In other former colonies, the colonial powers had generally built a lot of infrastructure (political, economical, physical, etc) by the time the countries gained independence many, many years after Haiti gained its.

In 1825, France, with warships at the ready, demanded Haiti “compensate” France for its loss of a slave colony. In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs (modern equivalent of $21.7 billion). To put this ungodly amount into perspective: In 1823 Haitian exports to France totaled 8.5 million francs, exports to England totaled 8.4 million francs, and exports to the United States totaled 13.1 million francs, for a total of 30 million francs. Although there was much corruption and political instability (due to the lack of political infrastructure) during Haiti's history, the massive dept set the tone. Haiti did not finish paying her indemnity until 1947! The US also meddled the **** out of this country throughout the 20th century into the 21st.


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## Matthias Offodile (Apr 16, 2005)

streetscapers, this was ages ago, we are talking here of more than 200 years (!!!), man! There is no excuse, how can a country remain stagnant for more than 200 years! This is impossible! Moreover, External powers can´t be blamed for Haiti´s misery eternally! Have a lokk at other nation states in the region! All have developped!


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## streetscapeer (Apr 30, 2004)

Matthias Offodile said:


> streetscapers, this was ages ago, we are talking here of more than 200 years (!!!), man! There is no excuse, how can a country remain stagnant for more than 200 years!





> Haiti did not finish paying her indemnity until *1947*









Matthias Offodile said:


> This is impossible! Moreover, External powers can´t be blamed for Haiti´s misery eternally!





> The US also meddled the **** out of this country throughout the *20th century into the 21st*



Are you saying the alternative? That external powers had *nothing* to do with the state of the country? :lol: 









Matthias offodile said:


> Have a lokk at other nation states in the region! All have developped!





> In other former colonies, the colonial powers had generally built a lot of infrastructure (political, economical, physical, etc) by the time the countries gained independence many, many years after Haiti gained its.


Reading Comprehension > you!

It may seem intuitive to think that the earlier a country has gained its independence the more developed it should be, but that's not certainly the case. There are many other factors. Some poor countries were never colonies.


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