# CANADA - Stadium and Arena Development News



## Guest

> what are you on about, north american arenas are big but they look really ugly. west european countries, japan & south korea are all way better than canada or the usa's arenas


I have tried to find pictures on indoor arenas (ie, basketball, hockey, etc) in Europe and Asia before, but have had little luck. There is plenty out there on stadiums from everywhere and arenas in North America, but not arenas eslewhere, at least as far as I can tell.

Are there any good sites to look for pics and info on European/Asian basketball arenas?


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## mlm

UnknownColumn said:


> I have tried to find pictures on indoor arenas (ie, basketball, hockey, etc) in Europe and Asia before, but have had little luck. There is plenty out there on stadiums from everywhere and arenas in North America, but not arenas eslewhere, at least as far as I can tell.
> 
> Are there any good sites to look for pics and info on European/Asian basketball arenas?



To me there is no doubt that US/Canada has the better anenas, but some new, rather large ones, have been built in Europe the last years. I'm sure more is comming.

Hare are a few photos from www.stadionwelt.de (you can find more there) from some of the newer ones, I hope it's okay to use them:

Kölnarena, Cologne, Germany - 18.500:




















ColorLineArena, Hamburg, Germany - 12.759:




















Sazka Arena, Prag, Chech - 17.000:











(from www.sazkaarena.com]










Globe Arena, Stockholm, Sweden - 13.850:

(photo from http://electron.cs.uwindsor.ca/60-270/04S/torranc/location.html)











Hartwell Arena, Helsinki, Finland - 13.665:

(photo from http://electron.cs.uwindsor.ca/60-270/04S/torranc/location.html)











There are other new ones too, but don't have any information on them


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## mlm

Oh, just found another website, with some information about euro arenas - European Areans Association

EDIT: And another, http://www.hockeyarenas.net/


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## 416

I think the Bell Centre (formerly the Molson Centre) in Montreal is the best arena in Canada. It's equally well served by public transit and it's larger than the ACC.





































The Bell Centre is accessible to all. By Metro and by bus Lign 2 (orange) of the metro serves both Lucien-L'Allier and Bonaventure stations. 

Commuter trains Close by is the Windsor Train Station. Also accessible from the Central Train Station. 

By car Highways and bridges will get you there. Autoroutes 10, 20, 40; Champlain, Victoria, Jacques-Cartier and Mercier Bridges; Louis-H.-Lafontaine Tunnel.

Seats: 21,450 hockey fans


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## Guest

Here is the Arena from Bern. The Team with best Attendance in Europe.

http://hockeyarenas.net/index.php3?page=3000&strSearch=bern&arID=1


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## Guest

MEN Arena, Manchester, England:

Capacity 21,000. You can see the light rail lines going into the station underneath the arena.


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## Mo Rush

SKYDOME still impresses me due to it multiple uses
GO TORONTO 2016


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## CF

DanG said:


> Here is the Arena from Bern. The Team with best Attendance in Europe.
> 
> http://hockeyarenas.net/index.php3?page=3000&strSearch=bern&arID=1


That reminds of the Sattledome.


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## fahed

Cool Arenas (No experiance with them)










Huge Bed!!!


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## Smart_j

I know it's all about Canadian Arena's over here but just for the record:

What about the sportpaleis ('the old lady') in Antwerp, built in 1932. Probably one of the oldest and certainly one of the the bigger (appx. 15.000 seats) indoor arena's in Europe:










http://www.sportpaleis.be

Or the Amsterdam ArenA, with 'just' 48.984 seats, lightrail, train, P&R:


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## tayser

In terms of Canadian stadia, I can't go past Montréal's Olympic stadium, way way way ahead of its time, and it's just timeless, completely synonymous with Canada. Leaps and bounds ahead of the rest, by a country mile!


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## habsfan

Tayser,

that last picture of Montreal and the pink sky, i'm using it as my screen saver!


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## TreeBeard

I hate these giant concrete blocks like the SKYDOME and Olympic Stadium. I think Commonwealth stadium is by the far the best stadium in Canada. There is no atmosphere in these giant concrete stadiums.


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## Jaybird

Two more of Ontario's greatest arenas:

The John Labatt Centre, London, Ontario, 10,000+ seating capacity and home to the OHL's London Knights Major Junior Canadian hockey team and hosts major events. Seen MANY Knights games here.


























Copps Coliseum, Hamilton's 17,500 seat arena, supposed to home to a future NHL franchise, but lost out twice. Is home to the Hamilton Bulldogs of the AHL and hosts major events.


















The old Maple Leaf Gardens, officially closed in 1999 as the old home of the NHL's Toronto Maple Leafs. Seated 16,500. On Carlton and Church in downtown Toronto. Only NHL game I saw in Toronto was here in 1996, when I used to be a Leafs fan. 


















Here's the FRONT of Ottawa's 18,000 seat Corel Centre (I know it was shown before, but I wanna contribute). It's on the west end of Highway 417 in Kanata, Ontario.


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## Rapid

It seems that our only aesthetically pleasing arena is the Olympic Stadium in Montreal.


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## DrJoe

except it's not an arena.


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## fgdf

I hate "the best in the world" sentence !! men you do have cool arenas but they aren't best in the world?? in what design? capacity. It's your own private opinion don't force us to think the way you do. d**n it.... wrrr


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## SimpleSimon

MTS Centre in Winnipeg:

























































Canwest Global Park


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## medevil_kenivel

the mts centre in wpg is the shit. i went to see the tragically hip there and it was frickin great.


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## Jaybird

^ I concur about the MTS Centre. It looks sweet enough to have an NHL team back in there! I wish I could even see a Moose game there, but it's sooooo far away from where I live. I love London's downtown JLC, but the MTS in Winnipeg looks awesome!


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## Sikario

Nice stadium. As a Sunderland fan, I'm fully aware of the Vancouver Whitecaps... They beat us in pre-season friendly. But if their current stadium/pitch had a view like that I'm not suprised.


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## beyond 1000

Talisker said:


> The stadium design with the low/absent end stands is popular is france, and rather suits this location with it's excellent views.
> 
> I'm sure Peter Beardsly (one of england's star footballers of the 80's and 90's) played for the whitecaps a couple of times. I didn't realise they were still in existance.


I had seasons tickets to the Whitecaps back when they were part of the now defunct NASL (North American Soccer League). Yes Talisker, Beardsly was there for a few seasons. Many top pros played for the NASL. The NASL got too big too fast and much of the fan base was not there and the tv contract was too small for them. The footballers also has big contracts. That was a fun league. 

The Whitecaps are now part of a second league which is not top class. Still soccer or football is good as I've seen some of their games. When this stadium is built, I will definitely watch games.


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## [email protected]

Like it


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## C|2azyCanuck

rt_0891 said:


> Because of the unusual and challenging nature of such a facility in this location, the City has determined that an initial, high level review of the proposal is needed to determine whether it has a reasonable chance of being successful in meeting City planning objectives for the area; and of having sufficient public support.
> 
> The Review will be undertaken partly by City staff and partly by an outside consultant team.
> 
> After the Initial Review is complete, staff will report to City Council who will decide whether to proceed further with the planning for the project. If so, the proposal would be folded into the anticipated Waterfront Lands/Hub Structure Plan Study, followed by an Official Development Plan process and/or Rezoning process, as normal for such a major project.


Knowing very little about the development and city zoning processes I have to say that christ! That is a lot of red tape.


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## Kuvvaci

*Why doesn't Canada think about hosting a World Cup?*

I wonder why Canada doesn't think about hosting a World Cup (soccer)? It would be nice in Canada...


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## Guest

I wonder about it too. They are a big, rich country with may good stadiums. 

The host cities could be:
1: Toronto
2: Montreal
3: Vancouver
4: Calgary
5: Edmonton
6: Ottawa
7: Quebec
8: Winnipeg
9: Halifax
10: Saskatoon
11: Regina
12: Victoria / Sudbury / Thunder Bay

Toronto & Montreal have stadiums just excellent for WC matches.


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## LEAFS FANATIC

Not enough large-sized "true" football stadiums.

There are currently three (maybe four) that would be large enough to be used:

Skydome - Toronto
Olympic Stadium - Montreal
Commonwealth stadium - Edmonton

and Maybe BC Place - Vancouver (it is indoor though)


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## eomer

Canada 2026: good idea.
Even if only Toronto and Montreal go Stadium now, I hope other cities could build new ones before 2026...
The final should take place in Ottawa to avoid new troubles between Toronto and Montreal or is it possible to play to oppening match in Montreal and the final in Toronto.

So, here is the list of the next WC:
- Germany 2006
- South Africa 2010
- Brazil 2014
- England 2018
- Australia 2022
- Canada 2026
- China 2030
The, go back to Europe (Spain, Russia, Turkey...or European Union with matchs in Paris, London, Berlin, Roma, Madrid, Lisbon, Warsaw, Bern, Amsterdam and the final in Bruxelles)


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## Kuvvaci

I guess 2014 will be in England, coz they are already ready and to take anything it is enough to want for them...

I don't give a chance to Australia & New Zealand, you may think opposite, this is just my thought. 

Canada may do it in 2018. They can build everything from the zero like Korea & Japan (they built everything for WC+ Korea didn't even use Seoul Olympic Stadium but built a new soccer stadium)


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## eomer

Kuvvaci said:


> I guess 2014 will be in England, coz they are already ready and to take anything it is enough to want for them...


Wrong: the confederation is allready chosen and this is COMEBOL.
Brazil is the one only bid.


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## Kuvvaci

ohhh, did FIFA change the statue? 

How is the new statue now?


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## MoreOrLess

Kuvvaci said:


> I guess 2014 will be in England, coz they are already ready and to take anything it is enough to want for them...
> 
> I don't give a chance to Australia & New Zealand, you may think opposite, this is just my thought.
> 
> Canada may do it in 2018. They can build everything from the zero like Korea & Japan (they built everything for WC+ Korea didn't even use Seoul Olympic Stadium but built a new soccer stadium)


The only way I can see England getting 2014 is if Brazil have a problem with the massive redevolpment of stadiums/infrastructure that would be needed to host the WC and even then I'd guess they would probabley just give them 2018 instead.


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## Selcuk

Next WC´s:

2010 South Africa
2014 Brazil
2018 England
2022 China
2026 USA / Canada
2030 Europe (Spain, Italy, Turkey)
2034 Australia
2038 Africa (Egypt)
2042 Europe 
2046 North or South America


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## ssiguy2

Kuvvaci said:


> I wonder why Canada doesn't think about hosting a World Cup (soccer)? It would be nice in Canada...


Because no one in Canada would notice.


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## Nouvellecosse

Yeah, Soccer just isn't a popular sport in Canada. Well, not with adults anyway. Kids play it at school sometimes. I never ever hear anything about it here. Well, except for in the context of foreign countries. Why would Canada be chosen as a host for an event that noone here even cares about? Does Canada even have a team?


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## Martuh

Kuvvaci said:


> I wonder why Canada doesn't think about hosting a World Cup (soccer)? It would be nice in Canada...


For a World Cup, you're ought to have ten 40.000+ stadiums.
















Commonwealth Stadium, Edmonton: 60.217
















Olympic Stadium, Montréal: 65.255
















BC Place Stadium, Vancouver: 59.841
















Rogers Center, Toronto: 55.000

With some expansion:









Taylor Field, Regina: 27.332









Percival Molson Memorial Stadium, Montréal: 20.002









McMahon Stadium, Calgary: 37.317









Ivon Wynne Stadium, Hamilton: 29.183
















Frank Clair Stadium, Ottawa: 28.826









Canad Inns Stadium, Winnipeg: 29.503

Reached ten stadiums.


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## DrJoe

Skydome soccer match


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## LEAFS FANATIC

Nouvellecosse said:


> Kids play it at school sometimes.


Soccer is the number one participation sport in organized leagues in Canada. More children/teenagers are enrolled in soccer leagues than hockey, which is the biggest sport in Canada.




Nouvellecosse said:


> I never ever hear anything about it here.


You obviously are not paying attention then.




Nouvellecosse said:


> Does Canada even have a team?


Yes it has a national team. It competes in the CONCACAF region of FIFA and plays against nations like Mexico, USA, Jamaica, Costa Rica, etc.


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## johnz88

First of all its Canada! I no that there are a lot of immigrants that love soccer but the culture here is hockey. Canadains live to play hockey. Second is that there are no real soccer stadiums right now. I know Canada could afford to build big beatiful stadiums and modernize some the football stadiums they have like in Edmonton but what will happen after the World Cup. Canada wont be able to keep the stadiums going. Maybe a few soccer games a year with less then half cap. or a few concerts still wouldn't pay the bills to upkeep a large stadium. The other thing is the distances the teams would have to travel to play. Traveling from even Toronto to Edmonton is more than travelling across Europe. So maybe not yet, I guess in about 20 years we could try.


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## Kuvvaci

> Does Canada even have a team?


Canada played at World Cup in 1986 Mexico. But later U.S.A took its place... In the past there was Canada more than U.S.A However U.S made big steps...


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## mauritius gunner

It's all about passion and commitment when hosting a tournament of this size. It's also about progressing for the good of the game- an ideal, and it is this that FIFA are looking for. I also don't think the Aussies have got what it takes either. At least not for another fifty years.

Leave FOOTBALL for the traditional continents- europe and latin america, or the emerging/serious countries- South Africa and possibly China.

Stick to Ice Hockey, its what your best at and also what your population only really cares about, apart from maybe NFL or NBA


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## XCRunner

eomer said:


> Canada 2026: good idea.
> Even if only Toronto and Montreal go Stadium now, I hope other cities could build new ones before 2026...
> The final should take place in Ottawa to avoid new troubles between Toronto and Montreal or is it possible to play to oppening match in Montreal and the final in Toronto.
> 
> So, here is the list of the next WC:
> - Germany 2006
> - South Africa 2010
> - Brazil 2014
> - England 2018
> - Australia 2022
> - Canada 2026
> - China 2030
> The, go back to Europe (Spain, Russia, Turkey...or European Union with matchs in Paris, London, Berlin, Roma, Madrid, Lisbon, Warsaw, Bern, Amsterdam and the final in Bruxelles)


They wouldn't let it go to England, Australia, and Canada, all 3 in a row. They wouldn't give it to that many Commonwelath nations in a row. Besides, how did you arrive at this list. Only the first two are for sure. and Brazil is very likely. England is in the lead, but that's not even close to a sure thing. And the rest seem to be just made up.

Going back to the original topic, I don't think Canada will ever host it. They only have 30 million people who aren't very interested in the sport at all. Outside of Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, none of the cities are really big enough to host something like that. There interest is about that of the US's but they have about 1/10 the population.


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## krodiger

eomer said:


> ...or European Union with matchs in Paris, London, Berlin, Roma, Madrid, Lisbon, Warsaw, Bern, Amsterdam and the final in Bruxelles)


That would be nice.


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## CharlieP

No it wouldn't - it would completely dilute the World Cup and the experience would be greatly diminished.


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## eomer

XCRunner said:


> They wouldn't let it go to England, Australia, and Canada, all 3 in a row. They wouldn't give it to that many Commonwelath nations in a row. Besides, how did you arrive at this list.


It's easy to understand: there are 6 confederation and FIFA decided in 2004 to give the host to each one. Europe could get WC every 12 years because it's the confederation with to most countries and other could get it every 24 years.

If you consider the past, the order is:
- 1994: North America
- 1998: Europe
- 2002: Asia
- 2006: Europe
- 2010: Africa
- 2014: South America
- 2018: Europe
- 2022: Oceania
- 2026: North america
- 2030: Europe
- 2034: Asia
- .....

All right, I made a mistake about China 2030 instead of 2034.
But in 2030, Uruguay may get it to celebrate the century.


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## BobDaBuilder

^^^^^^

FIFA is stopping the unofficial rotation system for staging World Cup's after South America in 2014. It was put in just to placate Africa after they got stiched up by New Zealand's Charlie "SOB" Dempsey for the 2006 Cup.

Also Oceania could never host a World Cup. The closest nation to be able to host it would be NZ and they only have a 3.5 million population and pathetic stadia, few hotels as well as poor infrastructure. Think holding the World Cup in Lithuania to get a pretty good idea of how impossible it would be.

As for giving to it Commonwealth countries(British Empire nations) 3 times in a row, unlikely but possible. The old British Empire covers 1.8 billion people worldwide. CHOGM has a fair bit of political clout.

It all boils down to the fact that the FA should never, ever have allowed the French to run off and hijack football with their "FIFA". That was one of histories greatest blunders.

A great World Cup line up:
2010 South Africa 
2014 Brazil/Argentina (British Army had a crack but failed in 1800's(unfortunately for those places as it so turns out))
2018 England 
2022 Australia
2026 Canada

FIFA would be so lucky to have that as a line up for their World Cup.

# As it stands today I would be completely against ever giving it to China or any other totalitarian, despotic state. Football needs to be the light and regimes like China need to be told in no uncertain terms that it needs to mend its ways before ever getting near hosting the World Cup.


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## eomer

BobDaBuilder said:


> # As it stands today I would be completely against ever giving it to China or any other totalitarian, despotic state.


1- China can become a democratic country before 2030.
2- It would not be the first time: Argentina 78 was ruled by a dictator calle Videla. When FIFA decided to attribute WC 1982 to Spain, Franco was still here.


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## Guest

Uruguay 2030 would be great, but i don't think that Uruguay can afford to host WC  Maybe Uruguay-Argentina.


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## Martuh

michal-skoczen said:


> Uruguay 2030 would be great, but i don't think that Uruguay can afford to host WC  Maybe Uruguay-Argentina.


Argentina could host it alone easily.


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## XCRunner

eomer said:


> It's easy to understand: there are 6 confederation and FIFA decided in 2004 to give the host to each one. Europe could get WC every 12 years because it's the confederation with to most countries and other could get it every 24 years.
> 
> If you consider the past, the order is:
> - 1994: North America
> - 1998: Europe
> - 2002: Asia
> - 2006: Europe
> - 2010: Africa
> - 2014: South America
> - 2018: Europe
> - 2022: Oceania
> - 2026: North america
> - 2030: Europe
> - 2034: Asia
> - .....
> 
> All right, I made a mistake about China 2030 instead of 2034.
> But in 2030, Uruguay may get it to celebrate the century.


I'm well aware of this, but I still don't think they'd give it to three mainly anglo-saxon countries in a row.


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## XCRunner

Martuh said:


> Argentina could host it alone easily.


But that defeats the purpose of letting Uruguay celebrate the centennial.


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## hngcm

Canada should try hosting the Gold Cup first....


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## Tuscani01

ssiguy2 said:


> Because no one in Canada would notice.


Thats not true. When a team comes from overseas to play at skydome... errrr rogers centre, the stadium is packed with fans. There would be no problem filling up the stadiums.


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## simadon

> They wouldn't let it go to England, Australia, and Canada, all 3 in a row. They wouldn't give it to that many Commonwelath nations in a row.


Canada will no longer be part of the Commonwealth by then. Queen E II is the end of the line.

Canada can easily host the World Cup. I for one am a big soccer fan. You can see the pubs and cafes filled on the weekends watching league play from accross the pond, in Toronto at leat.

Majority of the tickets will be sold to foreigners anyways.

Canada is hosting the next under21 World Cup in 2008.

There were also rumours that FIFA was in Canada examining the existing facilities.


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## Plumber73

I'd like to see it happen, but Canada doesn't deserve to host the World Cup, yet. I believe it first needs to prove much bigger support for the professional game. There is already tons of participation at the youth level, but after that there is a wasteland. Even the soccer specific stadiums being proposed now are not even close to the capacity required for such an event. It could happen down the road, but we're simply very far from it.


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## BobDaBuilder

^^^^^

Canada's leaving the Empire too are they? Who will be left to turn out the lights, Zimbabwe?

They are sounding more and more similar to Oz. Hopefully they get the World Cup. It would be much better staging it there than South America(or England)!


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## Lostboy

There just isn't any international incentives. Countries which aren't traditional football playing nations like the USA and Japan/South Korea have massive populations/economies and are nations worth investing the World Cup in, as well as the fact that they have many great stadia, which Canada would lack for Football. Canada with a population of 30 million (soon to be without that of Quebec's) just isn't worth it economically.


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## mauritius gunner

Eomer had an interesting world cup rotation system, yet I am somehow not completely in agreement.

I agree Europe will host the tournament the most frequent times (it is afterall, not only the biggest confederation, but also the most powerful and influential) and also believe they will get this in a tri-rotational schedule. What I don't agree is that they will simply give it to the other continents in turn. 

Many of you are convinced Australia will host this in 2022, but there are only 3 or 4 countries in Oceana. One of 18 million people, the rest less than 5 million. I don't think FIFA will let Australia host the world cup so easily, nor USA in the case of CONCACAF, not so soon after 94, unless they co-hosted with either Mexico or Canada to give their candidature extra potency.

FIFA will welcome candidature from at least 3 or 4 credible host nation, for each tournament, for competition and not allowing any complacency. I believe while Europe secures every 3rd host, its possible to see whole continents compete for the other hosting rotations after 2014

i.e. Africa 2010, S America 2014, Europe 2018
then
2022 Asia or Oceana
2026 CONCACAF or S America
2030 Europe 
2034 Africa or Oceana
2038 Asia or CONCACAF
and so on

Sep Blatter may have this dream, but he is disliked in circles at FIFA, if the president changes, maybe the rotational system can change again completely.


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## CF

*Olympics project*

Hey guys, i'm wondering if anyone can help me on a project i'm doing on the up and coming Winter Olympic games in Vancouver. I need to make an argument that the Olympics are good thing for a city(Vancouver in particular, if possible), and how it benifets a city and it's economy. If anyone has any information or websites they can give me to help me in this project, in would be greatly appreciated.


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## interpol

ask here

www.gamesbids.com


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## krazycanuck

here's some more saddledome pics. Love these!


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## Martuh

rantanamo said:


> o really? We are talking about basketball/hockey venues, right? Or should Soldier Field, Lambeau, Paul Brown, Reliant, etc be thrown in the mix. If so, that's another discussion that already has a huge thread. I think the conclusion was, Europe and Asia focus on modern exterior design, with more ordinary bowls for most. North American have much more posh interiors with tons more luxury suites and boxes. NA's also tend to have more traditional exteriors, often using brick and limestone combinations. The bowls reflect the sport more than anything. Hard to say one is better than the other because the needs of the sports are different. Example, the Greek Olympic Stadium, or Allainz in Germany are much more modernly designed on the exterior than most you see in the US, but neither have the interior bowl and amenties that a Reliant or Soldier Field, nor do the have the mix of modern, yet old timey exterior like Miller Park or countless modern baseball parks in the majors. Just two different worlds.
> 
> BUT, we are talking basketball/hockey. If so, the NBA/NHL arena are the best.


First of all, I like Canada and dislike Amurka because of their tourists (get it?) but I don't think Europe beats North America to arenas because we don't live for hockey and basketball, we live for football and stuff. But hey, we can still compare, can't we?

Khimik Stadion - Kemerovo - 33 000 seats (pic)
SCC Petersburgsky - St. Petersburg - 25 000 seats
Sinan Erdem Dome - Istanbul - 22 500 seats
Ethias Arena - Hasselt - 21 600 seats
Sportpaleis - Antwerpen - 21 000 seats
The London Dome - London - 20 000 seats
Beograd Arena - Beograd - 20 000 seats
Bern Arena - Bern - 19.000 seats
Kölnarena - Köln / Cologne - 19 000 seats
Bizkaia Arena - Barakaldo - 19 000 seats
Olympic Sports Hall - Athens - 19 000 seats
Arena am Ostbahnhof - Berlin - 18 000 seats
Palicio de los Deportes - Madrid - 18 000 seats
Sazka Arena - Prague - 17 400 seats
MEN Arena - Manchester - 17 000 seats
Palau Sant Jordi - Barcelona - 17 000 seats
Allmend Stadion - Bern - 16 800 seats
Palalottomatica - Rome - 16 400 seats
Helliniko Indoor Hall - Athens - 15 000 seats
Vikingskipet - Hamar - 15 000 seats
Moscow Arena - Moscow - 15 000 seats
Peace & Friendship Stadium - Pireas - 15 000 seats
H.C. Andersen Arena - Kopenhagen - 15 000 seats
Amsterdam Dome - Amsterdam - 15 000 seats
Palicio de Vistalegre - Madrid - 15 000 seats
T-Mobil Arena - Prague - 15 000 seats
Ahoy - Rotterdam - 15 000 seats
Kisstadion - Budapest - 15 000 seats
SAP Arena - Mannheim - 15 000 seats
Hala Sportowa - Gdansk - 15 000 seats

Just a list of 15 000+ European arena's. Better then I thought actually, seems Europe can kinda keep up with North-America. But again, were not into arena sports. We prefer football.


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## Meister2004

I think the Pepsi Center is the best.
But in the moment I have no pictures.
Maybe some of you have some pictures of Pepsi Center.


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## HoldenV8

Saddledome was built in 1983.


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## samsonyuen

I really like the Saddledome and Olympic Stadium in Montreal. I agree that Canada has some of the more distinctive stadia/arenas around.


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## mauritius gunner

oooooooh caaaa-nada, my home and native laaaaaaaaaand!

Actually I've got a question, I understand North American stadia are among the most luxurious in the world, but where do they get the money?

I know much is levied from the mayors office and therefore the taxpayer (wouldn't you be p*ssed off if you were struggling taxpayer?) and the TV networks- in spite of general interest only being in america, unlike what the rest of the world generally regards as football- such as the world cup and the champions league which has much higher global viewing figures.

Also, how much is an average NFL/NBA/NHL game ticket anyway? Ticket for English premiership games can cost as much as $100, regular seating. 

Apart from Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea, few premiership clubs can only marvel at having a wonderful stadium- even Liverpool FC, perhaps the 2nd or 3rd largest club with a global fanbase is struggling to find finance for their new stadium valued at £120m.


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## rantanamo

Where do they get the money? Its the United States and Canada. I understand that this board often makes the U.S. look like Bush and his declining economy, but let's keep things in perspective. Declining economy in the U.S. means that its economy is only growing in the single digits. I would take the 30,000,000 U.S. viewers that watch each NFL game over those 100,000,000 globally that might watch a EPL match. I would take the 10,000,000 that watch NASCAR each week vs the 70,000,000 that watch Formula 1 every other week. Why? North Americans spend a lot of money, and are very brand loyal. Are we as flag waving and organized in our chants? No. But we have incredible attendance for the majority of our leagues, and people buy, buy buy. TV deals are in the hundreds of billions for the NFL. Advertisers love these fans. If Budweiser is a sponsor for their favorite driver or their favorite player is featured on their ads, people here will buy only those products. I know plenty of Home Depot only Tony Stewart fans, or life long Air Jordan buyers. The sports market here(North America) is simply more lucrative than anywhere else. That's where the money comes from. Do you realize that the current NFL labor dispute is about 4% of revenues. Each % is about $40 billion last I heard. I think I am low on that estimate though. 

You see deals with cities for venues because owners know they can do them. Cities are paying for exposure, improved infrastructure, and newly created tax revenues. Some cities make out like gangbusters because they negotiate and get what they want, that will perform best in their city. Cities that make horrible deals have themselves to blame or are simply trying to gain too much fame without a proper plan(Arlington).


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## nomarandlee

Also in the question of how can North Americans "afford" such stadiums it is not very complicated. MANY of the stadiums serve to both backetball and hockey which means they serve to over 80 home games a year. Then most of the stadiums bring in large concert acts in the winter time (and sometimes spring, fall, and winter). Then they also are the venues that often host things like the circus, small conventions, and other indoor events (especially in the winter months). Some also host college or minor league basketball/hockey tourney's and games as well.

When you consider that the top seats at baskeball and hockey games are 100-200 dollars or more and skyboxes cost tens of thousands for a season there is a lot of revenue to be made. I am guessing the average ticket price is somewhere around 30 dollars at most venues in North American for a pro game. Then you also get insane ticket prices for concerts as well which a portion goes to the house.

So many of these stdiums are used for well over 100 dates a year (Madison Square Garden New York, United Center Chicago, Staples Center in LA even more).

Even though these stadium are enclosed most are much less expensive to build then the top tier American football or even baseball stadiums and get almost if not more use then either. So even if a city does help pitch in for some or even all of the stadium its likely the best investmant in terms of stadiums because they are used by the public so often year round.

What I can't understand is why would they build such big arenas in the UK (I can understand some other parts of Europe where hockey or basketball is at least somewhat popular) when the UK has such minimal intreast in arena sports.


----------



## Lexy

Let me throw this one out there. The Gaylord Entertainment Center. Awesome place if you have ever been. My wife and I are season ticket holders of the Predators, so we are there often. Here is a shot I took of it earlier this year......









Outside...a tribute (the tower) to the music and radio/television industry here in Nashville.


----------



## Taller Better

Ok. I am going to be spat upon, but in my humble opinion the Saddledome is hideous. 
How can a building try to mimick a saddle? Uggggghhhh


----------



## bubomb

"The Gaylord Entertainment Center" :rofl:


----------



## NFLeuropefan

The national gay, lesbian, and bisexual convention is held there........


----------



## Lexy

NFLeuropefan said:


> The national gay, lesbian, and bisexual convention is held there........


Well that was the most mature statement in the thread. Why not educate yourself, BOYS, rather than act like n00b's and three year olds..

Anyways, the name comes from the Gaylord Corporation. They are owner/operators of many large hotels and convention centers in the US and abroad and they also own the Grand 'Ol Opry here in Nashville. The name is going to change as Gaylord has taken its sponsorship off the arena effective at the end of the current hockey season. The Nashville Predators are actively seeking a replacement for it. Nissan is one of the company's being persued due to their corporate HQ being here in Nashville.


----------



## NavyBlue

Christos7 said:


> SEF stadium in Greece


This otherwise nice arena has to be on of the worlds worst thats used for basketball.

The seats are way too far from the action . . . do they hand out binoculars with every ticket? :dunno:


----------



## NFLeuropefan

Lexy said:


> Well that was the most mature statement in the thread. Why not educate yourself, BOYS, rather than act like n00b's and three year olds..
> 
> Anyways, the name comes from the Gaylord Corporation. They are owner/operators of many large hotels and convention centers in the US and abroad and they also own the Grand 'Ol Opry here in Nashville. The name is going to change as Gaylord has taken its sponsorship off the arena effective at the end of the current hockey season. The Nashville Predators are actively seeking a replacement for it. Nissan is one of the company's being persued due to their corporate HQ being here in Nashville.



I KNOW THAT!!!!! What part of kidding around do you not get?????


----------



## Iain1974

rantanamo said:


> TV deals are in the hundreds of billions for the NFL.


Actually it's $18Bn over 8 yrs. A colossal amount and provides approximately 60% of NFL revenues.

The way US sports are organised means that there are only a handful of teams per population. So we see the entire state of Texas, 20M with just 2 NFL teams whereas in comparison, a typical European city of say 1/2M will often have two teams. The huge catchment area is why US teams are pretty much all large and can afford to force the taxpayer to build or at least contribute to their stadiums.

Personally I'm a free-marketeer and prefer the more competitive model where there are no such restrictions on teams.


----------



## Lexy

NFLeuropefan said:


> I KNOW THAT!!!!! What part of kidding around do you not get?????


I have never claimed to be able to read ones mind. If it was a joke, I saw no emoticon or words that denote the fact. Sorry if it ruffled your feathers, but at least put a emphasis on the fact it is a joke. Rather than just lay a statement out and end it at that.


----------



## NFLeuropefan

Sorry, I should have made it more clear that I was kidding..........


----------



## DrJoe

mauritius gunner said:


> Also, how much is an average NFL/NBA/NHL game ticket anyway? Ticket for English premiership games can cost as much as $100, regular seating.



The top NHL seats here in Toronto go for over $400 CDN. However, Toronto has a very wealthy corporate base that snatches up the tickets and gives them out to all the big wigs. The typical attire for the better seats is a suit and tie, so it's a big deal.


----------



## kingdomca

Iain1974 said:


> Actually it's $18Bn over 8 yrs. A colossal amount and provides approximately 60% of NFL revenues.
> 
> The way US sports are organised means that there are only a handful of teams per population. So we see the entire state of Texas, 20M with just 2 NFL teams whereas in comparison, a typical European city of say 1/2M will often have two teams. The huge catchment area is why US teams are pretty much all large and can afford to force the taxpayer to build or at least contribute to their stadiums.
> 
> Personally I'm a free-marketeer and prefer the more competitive model where there are no such restrictions on teams.


Are you sure its only 18 billion over 8 years? It doesnt seem much. Isnt this on par with the english premiership when adjusting for populations.
And that for a game where constant interuptions for commercials are are accepted.

Perhaps these 18 billions are just part of the rights.


----------



## rantanamo

Iain1974 said:


> Actually it's $18Bn over 8 yrs. A colossal amount and provides approximately 60% of NFL revenues.
> 
> The way US sports are organised means that there are only a handful of teams per population. So we see the entire state of Texas, 20M with just 2 NFL teams whereas in comparison, a typical European city of say 1/2M will often have two teams. The huge catchment area is why US teams are pretty much all large and can afford to force the taxpayer to build or at least contribute to their stadiums.
> 
> Personally I'm a free-marketeer and prefer the more competitive model where there are no such restrictions on teams.



I think you're thinking of this in the wrong way. Its very hard to compare European sports to US sports. There is no Texas Longhorns, Texas Tech Red Raiders, SMU Mustangs, TCU Horned Frogs, Houston Cougars, UTEP Miners or Texas A&M Aggies in England. In addition there are the Austin Wranglers and Dallas Desperadoes. All just football. Have to look at the popularity of basketball, D-League basketball(also professional), MLB and minor league baseball.

As far as numbers of total franchises go, it probably isn't that much different. The organization and spread amongst popular sports is totally different.


----------



## steveowevo

Just thought I'd throw in another arena/stadium... Sask Place, Saskatoon (Renamed Credit Union Center :bash: ) 

Rather small, but it's ok. Seats around 11,000




























Could hardly find any pics from the inside. Sorry.


----------



## Doc Halladay

*John Labatt Centre* 
London, Ontario
Capacity: 9,100 for hockey, 12,000 for concerts

*Dundas/Talbot corner. Built to resemble the old Talbot Inn.*









*Exterior, street level* 









*Collage of pics: Concourse, South Side Exterior, Lounge, Concert/Seating Setup* 









*Another concourse pic* 









*Private Suite* 









*Hockey Setup - Memorial Cup Final* 









*Grand Opening - Panorama* 









*Grand Opening - Panorama*


----------



## BaronVonChickenpants

rantanamo said:


> I think you're thinking of this in the wrong way. Its very hard to compare European sports to US sports. There is no Texas Longhorns, Texas Tech Red Raiders, SMU Mustangs, TCU Horned Frogs, Houston Cougars, UTEP Miners or Texas A&M Aggies in England. In addition there are the Austin Wranglers and Dallas Desperadoes. All just football. Have to look at the popularity of basketball, D-League basketball(also professional), MLB and minor league baseball.
> 
> As far as numbers of total franchises go, it probably isn't that much different. The organization and spread amongst popular sports is totally different.




not sure what point you are making.In England,there are 92 pro football clubs,and if u include the semi pro/amateaur,it runs into the hundreds.All this amonst a population of just 50 million.If we throw into the equation all the rubgy league and rubgy union teams,the county cricket sides,plus our own basketball and hockey teams(ok,the last two don't get big crowds)we ain't doing too bad
In London alone there are 13 professional Football teams,plus half a dozen rugby teams,two cricket teams


----------



## kingdomca

BaronVonChickenpants said:


> not sure what point you are making.In England,there are 92 pro football clubs,and if u include the semi pro/amateaur,it runs into the hundreds.All this amonst a population of just 50 million.If we throw into the equation all the rubgy league and rubgy union teams,the county cricket sides,plus our own basketball and hockey teams(ok,the last two don't get big crowds)we ain't doing too bad
> In London alone there are 13 professional Football teams,plus half a dozen rugby teams,two cricket teams


But he is right that lots of europeans think there is no sports in the US beyond the narrow pro set-up.
Its a pointless discussion anyway. I think there is little doubt that the US and the UK are the 2 countries where most money goes into sports per population but its organised so very differently. 

Brits seem to think that unless teams are pro they cant be any good and thats wrong. Its an odd belief as the US actually inherited all this amateur school sports from Britain, but developed it where Britain left it behind in the early days of sport. Go back to say 1850 and british sport was all about schools and universities. Some fixtures remain in big venues as an anachronism such as Eton v Harrow or Oxford v Cambridge, but these ancient fixtures was once the main thing.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

no offence but this thread is sort of disorganized, its hard to keep track of all the arenas and then ppl are mentioning stadiums??


----------



## Canadian Chocho

hehe gaylord!!


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Meh i would love it here, I would go insane!!! I love that pic of the...screw it i'm calling it SkyDome...SkyDome during that soccer match!


----------



## steveowevo

I think we're hosting the jr. world cup next year.


----------



## Zaqattaq

Thank god it will never happen


----------



## Accura4Matalan

It would be crap. The problem is, FIFA are so stupid that they would go for it anyway. They would probably bring in that daft organ thing they have at Baseball matches. The commercialism is bad enough already without it being hosted in North America.


----------



## Avens

BobDaBuilder said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Canada's leaving the Empire too are they? Who will be left to turn out the lights, Zimbabwe?
> 
> They are sounding more and more similar to Oz. Hopefully they get the World Cup. It would be much better staging it there than South America(or England)!


Why would it be better having a World Cup in Canada than England?!

We're a sporting nation and football's our national/most popular by far sport. We're good at it. We have the best league in the world (arguable, i know), with several top stadia which could easily support a World Cup. We created the sport! The World Cup's not been here for far too long.

I love Canada, amazing country. But they don't deserve a World Cup yet.


----------



## MoreOrLess

It would be possible I spose when you look at it....

Toronto - New National stadium and the Rogers Center - 80,000 + 50,000
Montreal - Olympic Stadium and a smaller new football stadium. 65,000 + 40,000
Edmonton - Renovated commonwealth stadium - 60,000
Vancouver - BC place or a replacement of similar size - 60,000
Calgary - New stadium used by the gridiron team afterwards - 40,000
Winnipeg - New stadium used by the gridiron team afterwards - 40,000
Ottawa - New stadium used by the gridiron team afterwards - 40,000
Hamilton - New stadium used by the gridiron team afterwards - 40,000

Thats ten stadiums(all the french used in 98) with enough capacity for the final and the semi's. However given Canada's population and standing in the football world I'd guess a joint bid with the US would be much more likely, I'm sure FIFA would love for the americans to host it again ASAP and a joint hosting with Canada could give them the excuse of doing so.


----------



## Jack Rabbit Slim

I love Canada, my fave country, and I would deffinitely go back there to see a WC, and I could visit some of my relatives while I'm doing it. They have the cities, the stadiums and the resources to pull off a great tournament, if they had the enthusiasm and desire to do so...but I'm not sure they do..... I think maybe if Canada progressed through to the WC finals more and got through to the latter stages, there would be more interest in the sport and the tournament as a whole.

I'd like to see England 2018 and Canada 2022! That would be my ideal choice, but I think China or Australia will get it before Canada


----------



## Canadian Chocho

I think Canada would do a great job!!! :cheer: :righton: :horse:


----------



## kenny_in_blue

eomer said:


> European Union with matchs in Paris, London, Berlin, Roma, Madrid, Lisbon, Warsaw, Bern, Amsterdam and the final in Bruxelles)


  the day EU hosts a world cup leaving the Scandinavian cities behind we definately leave the union. Bern? Brussels? NO! Stockholm and Copenhagen yes :yes:


----------



## Arpels

Canadian Chocho said:


> I think Canada would do a great job!!! :cheer: :righton: :horse:


me too :yes:


----------



## Fear of Heights

You'd have to host it in either the Toronto/Montreal areas or the other end of the country in Vancouver. Toronto/Montreal barely have enough stadiums. 

BTW, has the World Cup been held in the U.S. in the last 30 years? Just curious. I remember the Women's World Cup in L.A. but can't remember the U.S. men hosting. BTW, I remember the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. Many of the soccer matches were held at Legion Field in Birmingham, AL and Athens, GA near Atlanta. Legion Field drew 84,000 for USA vs. Argentina and man what an atmosphere. Athens, GA, home of the American football college team, the Georgia Bulldogs, offered their stadium for use (capacity 86,000). The only problem in the U.S. is that with the World Cup being held from June thru early July is the weather. Much of the Eastern U.S is ridiculously uncomfortable during those times of the year.


----------



## algonquin

mauritius gunner said:


> Don't make me laugh, Canada made a balls-up of the Montreal Olympics in 76.
> 
> It seems to me that much Public investment would be needed to host a tournament of this size. Not dissing the country as I know that it has some of the greatest wealth in the world. However, I believe the government has always been relatively non-compliant on such projects.
> 
> Plus Canada has a very small population (22M or something like that) I don't honestly think it has the manpower or the resources to host the single biggest sports event in the world single-handedly- yes, way bigger than the olympics even. Hordes of european hooligans, media focus, security, accomodation of teams, media and tens of thousands of fans, Police presence, upgrading of public infrastructure in at least 6 to 7 cities, besides building new stadiums and upgrading current ones (your present grounds are not upto FIFA standards or inadequate for FOOTBALL).
> 
> Your government would shirk from taking on the commitment, or fear that project costs would over-run. Though I do believe that Canada could co-host the tournament with the United States, this is a possibility.


You need to update your info from the 70's... Calgary was the last Canadian city to host the Olympics in 88' (which was a success), and our population is 32 million, not 22.

The main logistical problem to hosting the world cup in Canada is it's size. Canada spans 6 different time zones. Venues are thousands of kilometres apart. The World Cup is best left to small countries.

The main reason why Canada won't host it though is a lack of interest.. other than for kids, soccer as a played sport is relatively non-existant here. I'm sure even curling is more popular.


----------



## Toronto06

1) we are the second biggest land mass on earth... it wont be as easy to get people/players from a game in Toronto to a game in Vancouver as it was with players in smaller european countries where most cities are accessable by high speed trains. Vancouver is something like 5000 KM away from here......so theres a huge transportation problem unless there are discounted airline tickets. 

2) soccer isnt really as worshipped in canada as it is in europe/south america...however by 2020 i think soccer will be recgonized and appreciated in canada. immigration is also a factor because we bring in a lot of people from other countries and they too bring their love for soccer to canada and by the 2020's there will definately be a market for soccer in canada. 

.......theres a possibility but maybe later on in the future


----------



## vishalt

Canada.. and infact USA co-hosting it would be really good a really good catalyst for development imo.. but like you guys need to be more interested in Soccer and need better coaches so your fans rally behind you instead of a majority not being interested.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Co-hosting it wouldn't work, cause Canada's already big maybe too big for the job and having one game in Vancouver and another in Houston would be worse, plus I hear FIFA doesn't even like co-hosted tournaments and the USA can already do it by themselves.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

And maybe so could we!!!! :banana2: epper: :carrot: :cucumber:


----------



## Taller Better

I'm wondering if there would be a lot of resentment in countries where football has been established for many generations if it were held either in Canada, or the USA. Next year we are hosting the junior FIFA cup and I think that is a fine way to start.


----------



## MoreOrLess

Toronto06 said:


> 1) we are the second biggest land mass on earth... it wont be as easy to get people/players from a game in Toronto to a game in Vancouver as it was with players in smaller european countries where most cities are accessable by high speed trains. Vancouver is something like 5000 KM away from here......so theres a huge transportation problem unless there are discounted airline tickets.


Another reason why I'd say a joint hosting with the US is much more likely, in Vancouvers case you could have a group based there and in Seattle


----------



## samsonyuen

Not to quibble, but of the above posts:

Australia is no longer in the Oceanian conference, but the Asian conference as of this year.

Canada is not the second-largest landmass, but contains the second-largest area (but not second-largest land area).

FIFA has stated that it may not continue the rota after 2014, and will not allow any more joint-bids.

I think it'd be interesting to see the World Cup in Canada. The last and only time, 1986, Canada bid, it lost out to Mexico. It'd certainly help out the development of the sport in Canada.


----------



## Mo Rush

i dont think theres enough motivation for the world cup to go to canada...that just arb.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ There could be, trust me!


----------



## sharpie20

I thought that Canadians aren't as big of soccer fanatics as the rest of the world. It would be like the US hosting the WC the US definately has the money and the stadiums to host one but that definately woudln't work out because soccer is so far behind the other big three sports (American Football, Basketball and Baseball) in terms of popularity, and americans hold a mostly cynical view of soccer in their country.


----------



## monkeyronin

Popularity of football in Canada really depends on where you go. in the three major urban centres (especially Toronto), its quite popular actually. it just seems to be all the northern and prairie people who have major boners for hockey and American football.

I'd say after 2020 we would probably be capable of hosting it. football interest is constantly growing, both domesticaly and from immigration, and population is increasing pretty rapidly. by 2026 we could easily have 50,000,000 people here, not to mention the over 300,000,000 just a few kilometres south of us. 

the problem however, lies in the size of the nation. and as I mentioned earlier, the whole interior seems to not care at all, and the east and west coasts are thousands of kms apart. it could be feasiblt however to have it in the south east though. in southern Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes, as this also has the largest population and high population concentraion in the US in this area as well. but what I'm curious to know, is how did America host the '94 cup? its nearly as large as Canada, so how spread out was it? (too young then to actually remember the friggin venues)


----------



## algonquin

monkeyronin said:


> Popularity of football in Canada really depends on where you go. in the three major urban centres (especially Toronto), its quite popular actually. it just seems to be all the northern and prairie people who have major boners for hockey and American football.


Northern and Prairie people? 

For every one Torontonian who drives around and honks his/her horn every time Italy or whoever else wins a game, there's at least 5 people who wish they'd shut the hell up. You're seriously exaggerating soccers popularity in Canada's big cities.

Even still, you forgot millions of non-'Prairie' Non-'Northern' Non-3 big city Canadians who have 'boners' for hockey... they're from Ontario. You've got black/white demographic vision.


----------



## monkeyronin

algonquin said:


> For every one Torontonian who drives around and honks his/her horn every time Italy or whoever else wins a game, there's at least 5 people who wish they'd shut the hell up.


one would suspect that people who find loud, obnoxious, sport related behaviour annoying, would think so regardless of the sport in question.



algonquin said:


> Even still, you forgot millions of non-'Prairie' Non-'Northern' Non-3 big city Canadians who have 'boners' for hockey... they're from Ontario. You've got black/white demographic vision.


true, except that people who say that "soccer is not popular in Canada" generally seem to be from those areas, while those that talk about how popular football is, are from the other areas mentioned. 

additionally, Toronto is the only Canadian city with a MLS team, and Montreal and Vancouver both have USL teams. sports teams are only really in cities with markets for that sport, so of they have them, then well, there must be at least somewhat of a market!


----------



## MoreOrLess

monkeyronin said:


> the problem however, lies in the size of the nation. and as I mentioned earlier, the whole interior seems to not care at all, and the east and west coasts are thousands of kms apart. it could be feasiblt however to have it in the south east though. in southern Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes, as this also has the largest population and high population concentraion in the US in this area as well. but what I'm curious to know, is how did America host the '94 cup? its nearly as large as Canada, so how spread out was it? (too young then to actually remember the friggin venues)


Looking back the US didnt actually make as much provision for this as people think they did, some teams fans would have had to fly from the east to west coasts then back again.

As I said one way you could slove this would be to allocate each group two stadiums relatively close to each other which for a 32 team WC would mean a minium of 16 stadiums.


----------



## vishalt

what the hell does Canada's land mass have to do with anything?


----------



## Durbsboi

Why the hell should they have a WC in Canada?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

> Popularity of football in Canada really depends on where you go. in the three major urban centres (especially Toronto), its quite popular actually. it just seems to be all the northern and prairie people who have major boners for hockey and American football.


LOL!! Boners for hockey and American football!! Isn't it Canadian Football though?



> For every one Torontonian who drives around and honks his/her horn every time Italy or whoever else wins a game, there's at least 5 people who wish they'd shut the hell up


Yeah cause they're all portugese fans!!! :lol: ...or brazilian, or french, or south korean, or costa rican <-ew, or ecuadorian, or ARGENTINIAN <- owns!, or german...


----------



## algonquin

monkeyronin said:


> one would suspect that people who find loud, obnoxious, sport related behaviour annoying, would think so regardless of the sport in question.


Thats a good point... but I think alot of Canadians reject soccer because of it's international popularity.


----------



## monkeyronin

Canadian Chocho said:


> LOL!! Boners for hockey and American football!! Isn't it Canadian Football though?


Yeah, its uh, Canadian American football... you know how Americans call real football soccer, and their game football, which is also called American football to everyone, even though in Canada it is Canadian football based on the American version of the game with the same name. I think. (jesus christ this is complicated :sly: )


----------



## Canadian Chocho

But which one came first?? I'm too lazy to read this right now..,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_football


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Holy shitcakes!!!!!! All you English fans are gunna laugh but at least its start, Canada has moved up in the world rankings from 83rd to...54th!!!!!!! :banana:


----------



## Calvin W

Since the options are limited, Saddledome.


----------



## Gjm130

Well, it's an old arena. It was built in the 80s, when the Olympics were around. But it had lots of renovations.


----------



## pauliezaz

There aren't photos and more information! Hmmm I think Air Canada Center


----------



## Gjm130

pauliezaz said:


> There aren't photos and more information! Hmmm I think Air Canada Center


?? What ?? Does the name enlighten you? lol ?


----------



## Taller Better

The link is not working for the picture of Air Canada Centre in Toronto.


----------



## Gjm130

woops, ill fix that....


----------



## Zaqattaq

Air Canada Centre, one of the best in North America


----------



## Gjm130

zaqattaq said:


> Air Canada Centre, one of the best in North America


How come? Give me your arguments?? compared to the other 6? Why is the ACC your National Best?


----------



## panamaboy9016

*Umm..*

Air Canada Center from the outside looks very nice, and when I watch the games sometimes it looks really nice in the inside. It's that arena in my opinion.


----------



## Taller Better

I was dying to see the inside of ACC, and finally got to recently when I was roped into going to a Cirque du Soleil show. The building was the highlight of the concert.The arena was breathtaking and I was much impressed by it! I've not been in any of the others so cannot make an informed choice.


----------



## 40Acres

Maple Leafs Gardens










One of the coolest arenas in the history of EVER.


----------



## BobDaBuilder

Siemans Arena in Vilniaus is still the best.


----------



## DrJoe

40Acres said:


> Maple Leafs Gardens
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the coolest arenas in the history of EVER.


Can you believe they built this place in just 6 months back in 1931?

Anyway here is a couple other pictures of the Air Canada Centre




























If you're wondering, capacity for basketball is 19,800 and 18,800 for hockey.


----------



## DrJoe

double post


----------



## Canadian Chocho

As a Senators fan here is Scotiabank Place.


----------



## mikeeagle

Rexall Place - Edmonton because it hosted the best NHL hockey team ever in the early 80s. There's magic written all over it because of that...


----------



## Gjm130

Here are some pics of the Best historical Arena, the Montreal Forum. Built in 1924, renovated in the early 70's.

Montreal Forum


----------



## nano2192

The Air Canada Center


----------



## Gjm130

I don't really like the inside of the ACC. The seat colours don't match. And the views from the upper deck aren't as good as the ones at the Bell.


----------



## Gjm130

Here are some pics of the Bell Center in Montreal.

Bell Center


----------



## Skybean

Better than I had expected.


----------



## Wezza

Martinsizon said:


> 20, 000, plus an extra 5, 000 temporary during the 2007 U-20 FIFA World Cup


Cool, it seats the same amount of people as well.


----------



## Quintana

Looks very nice indeed.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Close to Downtown too!


----------



## Mo Rush

i love the simplicity of the seating tiers, nothing over the top, good sightlines, an open outdoorsy feel to it, yet functional and practical


----------



## Canadian Chocho

*http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=402240*


----------



## Lostboy

*Could Canada host a Rugby World Cup*

There were some posts talking about the laughable prospect of a Football World Cup for Canada, however most Canadians/iens saw this as the laughable attempt that it was, many unfortunately basically pouring scorn on the great game itself (a strange attitude for a country that promotes itself on globalism to have).

However a far more realistic option would be to have a possible future World Cup Rugby Competition take place in Canada. Whilst there are eleven other nations that have qualified for every world cup thus far, Canada is among the very few outside the first tier ten to have done so (including the one to be held in France 2007). Additionally due to their Anglo-Gallic Heritage they have a heritage from both the most successful of the Northern Hemisphere Teams (as well as the Celts), and Canada has some independent Rugby Heritage of it's own with McGill University arguably the oldest Rugby Club in the World (very arguably) but certainly founding the oldest annual sports competition in North America.

The requirements for a RWC are not nearly as stringent as for a FWC and Canada already has more than enough from it's Canadian Football Stadia and even the two Soccer Stadia being built. The Rugby World Cup is now actively looking to be hosted by non-traditional nations, such as Japan, and almost certainly they will host the competition in 2015, no reason that Canada shouldn't throw it's hat in the ring for subsequent ones though.


----------



## Walbanger

No doubt canada has the infrastructure. Guess the problem is people turning up. The IRB expects solid attendances for what is considered the 3rd biggest sporting series in the world. The 2003 RWC had and average attendance of 38,282 with over 82000 attending the opening game, both semifinals and final.

Obviously we can't expect those figures in canada but the IRB wouldn't allow the tournament to be held only in 20 / 30 000 soccer and CFL stadiums. The knock out rounds would have to be played at edmonton and with full with crowds (note; According to IRB laws, rugby union is only to be played on real grass).

Would love to see it though.
Would a co host format work with Canada and the USA. Say CFL canadian cities with France obviously based in the quebec pool. A New England based pool where college rugby has paticipation and history. A West Coast pool from BC to Cal. If memory serves me correct, the American Eagles play their internationals in San Fancisco and Colorado Springs?

The tournament could be held in 20 / 30 000 stadiums with the knockout matches moved to Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton and maybe a large US stadium that can fit the wider rugby field (20 yrds wider than an American Football field).


----------



## Walbanger

Hartford's Rentschler Field








Pic actually has rugby field marked out. Must have been the US game vs France.

Rutgers Stadium








Rutgers Stadium could easily fit the rugby field though I don't know how strong Rugby is in New Jersey.

Home Depot Center








Probably fit a field and should be ab;e to be filled.

Just some US stadiums that I believe are about the right size for pool game in a RWC.


----------



## pompeyfan

How did they do at the last WC?


----------



## NeilF

I think people here are forgetting some of the grounds that were used during the 1999 RWC included grounds like Thomand Park, Ravenhill, Welford Road, Stradey Park, Ashton Gate, Racecourse Ground and Netherdale - all with attendences between about 10,000 and 20,000 - much lower than the average from bigger games at places like Murrayfield, Hampden Park, Twickenham, Lansdowne Road, Millenium Stadium and so forth. These were used for the games of little interest to most - like Samoa vs. Japan or Italy vs. Tonga.

Big games will always attact big support - England vs. Ireland or New Zealand vs. Australia will get big crowds no matter where it is. I think the more burning question would be if Canada had enough usable and suitable small stadia with capacities of between 10,000 and 20,000 to make a viable bid, so that teams weren't playing in empty stadia.


----------



## CharlieP

Lostboy said:


> Canada is, alongside Eleven Other Rugby Playing Nations one of the few nations outside the First Tier Ten to have qualified for all five World Cups (including this years).


I think there was a loose connection between your brain and fingers when you wrote that! I think you mean - Canada, alongside eleven other rugby-playing nations, has qualified for all six World Cups (including this year's), and is one of the few nations outside the ten comprising the "first tier" to have done so...


----------



## Mo Rush

yes they could host...on a technical basis they could. whether they will in the next century is a different story...

next thread....can canada host the cricket world cup?


----------



## MelboyPete

I didn't realise Canada played international cricket.


----------



## CharlieP

MelboyPete said:


> I didn't realise Canada played international cricket.


Indeed they do.


----------



## BobDaBuilder

Canada used to be a cricket nation as did America before the spectre of rounders reared its head.

Lucky for Oz and England in a way because then they can claim to be the oldest test playing nations, otherwise the US/Canada could.


----------



## Breakwood

Canada even won a World Cup match against Bangladesh last World Cup.


----------



## Neda Say

Technically a rwc is a peace of cake not even a challenge! But in order to get that bid you need support from a lot of groups you have no control on: not only the IRB but mot mostly TV, sponsors and oh yes the top tiers federation who just like to have the rwc for themselves. Getting fans is not really a problem getting stadium filled wouldn't be too hard either.

But which venue would you pick ?


----------



## Neitzsche

I think its a fantastic idea Canada holding either a rugby or cricket world cup. Be a great excuse to head that way.


----------



## Wezza

^^
I couldn't imagine that Canada would be able to come up with the suitable stadia for a cricket world cup.


----------



## Mo Rush

KiwiBrit said:


> Your sources Mo?


major lack of accommodation,


----------



## kinggeorge

i am excited for toronto fc i plan to attend alot of games this year, this is a good start to building our national team hopefully we can get mls teams in montreal and vancouver soon..i do not like how the teachers own the team, i think they have ruined the leafs and our doing the same with the raptors i wish we had a different owner


----------



## KiwiBrit

Mo Rush said:


> major lack of accommodation,


Again your sources Mo.

I live in Christchurch and never saw a problem with a 'major lack of accomodation'. As far as I know, not one Lions fan slept on the streets during that tour (unless it was by choice!)


----------



## Mo Rush

KiwiBrit said:


> Again your sources Mo.
> 
> I live in Christchurch and never saw a problem with a 'major lack of accomodation'. As far as I know, not one Lions fan slept on the streets during that tour (unless it was by choice!)


sorry im confused with something else.


----------



## spotila

NZ struggled a little, but only in smaller cities. Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch had no problem accomodating the fans.


----------



## Neda Say

Really Calvin W 
I don't understand you is Muenster that bad

Kinggeorge. I don't think having MLE as a owner is that bad. At least not for now. When you try to get a proteam up and running you better have somebody connected and reknown. Without MLE no team in the city! Regarding MLS teams in Van and MTL. Well the Saputos are not ready to pay the bill to just get a franchise in a league known to lose money every year and Van is still waiting to get a yes on the waterfront stadium.


----------



## nyrmetros

MLS Toronto will = a better Canada National Team. That simple.
I hope in the next few years there will be a MLS Canadian League/Division....


----------



## Canadian Chocho

And after our own seperate league! Royal Canadian Super League! You heard it hear first!!


----------



## Neda Say

Canadian Chocho said:


> And after our own seperate league! Royal Canadian Super League! You heard it hear first!!


What?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

A soccer league I just made up for Canada. We can talk to the Aussies who I THINK established their league in 2004.


----------



## KGB

> It's a nice stadium in a decent spot I'm just not thrilled that my tax dollars helped to build it.



Who said your 53 cents worth of federal taxes payed for it anyway? We do contribute a few dollars to the feds ourselves Ya know, and we of all people don't need approval from you to receive a few sheckles....OF OUR OWN MONEY!!

In fact, if they spent it where they collected it, we would be getting a hell of a lot more.





> If you folks have a problem with it, so be it.



Well, uh...it really isn't much of a problem, since there isn't much you can do about it but whine.





KGB


----------



## Neda Say

Ok to create a canadian league but why oh why call it the royal canadian soccer/football league!!!???


----------



## Zaki

Canadian Chocho said:


> And after our own seperate league! Royal Canadian Super League! You heard it hear first!!


Don't we already have our own league??

Anyways can't wait for the MLS season to start for Toronto. Hopefully it sees high attendance rates and the field gets an expansion.


----------



## hngcm

Neda Say said:


> Ok to create a canadian league but why oh why call it the royal canadian soccer/football league!!!???


Cuz for some reason Canada still has ties to the Queen of England.hno:


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Zaki said:


> *Don't we already have our own league??*
> 
> Anyways can't wait for the MLS season to start for Toronto. Hopefully it sees high attendance rates and the field gets an expansion.


It's pretty much an embarrassment. And as for the Royal thing, I was trying to at least make it sound important.


----------



## Neda Say

Well we have a canadian soccer league and you can find the website at canadiansoccerleague.ca. And yes it's not pretty! But it's a league with no money and mostly community teams. it's not pro soccer, not even close. 

And even if Canada has strong ties with the Queen, we don't need to call it royal even if it sounds better.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

I guess. I am optimistic about our own professional league in a few years. If Canada goes far in the U20s and does a good job hosting, and if it qualifies for the next World Cup, we could see a league in 10 years or less IMO!


----------



## hngcm

Canadian Chocho said:


> and if it qualifies for the next World Cup, we could see a league in 10 years or less IMO!


That's a big if....

CONCACAF has 3.5 spots, the top three will go to Mexico, USA, and Costa Rica, while the 4th placed team gets to play a playoff with..........South America.


Although they did win a Gold Cup and beat my Mexico along the way.:banana:


----------



## Neda Say

OK why not! 
However a league might get some tough moment at birth. both USL and MLS would not see it with a kind face. Tfc is nothing but a concept in the making however a canadian league without the impact and the whitecaps is highly improbable and the USL might seriously disagree with that these teams are two of the best not to say the best.

The other usual problem would be to get other teams in other cities.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

hngcm said:


> That's a big if....
> 
> CONCACAF has 3.5 spots, the top three will go to Mexico, USA, and Costa Rica, while the 4th placed team gets to play a playoff with..........South America.
> 
> 
> Although they did win a Gold Cup and beat my Mexico along the way.:banana:


Exactly! All we need is those damn Ticos to have a bad year and voila! You'll see Canada drawing World Cup games in no time! LOL, I can see a friendly rivalry Australia.


----------



## Neda Say

Canadian Chocho said:


> Fine, how about 5?


Ok, how about a bit better cause it's extendable. Because it's where we need it and because Canada soccer will take advantage of both this stadium and the toronto fc to showcase their best hopefully.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Doveling said:


> So this stadium costs 70 million CAD ?
> This stadium in Breda , Holland was build for about 15 million USD
> capacity 17.000 people


Well think about the Premium Suites, that's how sports teams are successful here in Toronto. So it went for 15 mill huh, again, thousands of miles away, things cost differently in other places. Buy a cup of coffee in Colombia and then go to Japan and buy a cup of coffee, convert the costs to USD and you'll see the difference. The land is quite valuble too, it's in Downtown; in the middle of the Exibition gounds.


----------



## Llanfairpwllgwy-ngyllgogerychwy-rndrobwllllanty-si

^^ true , but Holland and Canada are both 1st world countries, prices should be simular, taken the big Mac index NL is one of the more expensive countries








Also groundprices are among the highest in Europe(over 400 Euro per square meter),but I guess land in downtown Toronto could be even more.
On such prime location I hoped for something more than this stadium.
And given my examples I guess they didn't make the most out of it.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Neda Say said:


> Yes you do have quite the imagination. that would be quite an impressive league no less than 17 clubs. Toronto and Montreal having two clubs each for good measure.
> 
> The teams are nicely spread across the country save for Yukon as usual.
> 
> I'm a complete go except for one little tiny detail.
> Well, USL tried to get teams in Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton and so far these have been complete fiascos. Toronto lynx are going to be some kind of farm team for the new Toronto FC.
> 
> So please give me your secret recipie to get this league going cause I want in on it.
> 
> One last point you forgot to put a team in Mississauga and one in Niagara Region.


Look, I made the first logo! For Pardale FC!!


----------



## Neda Say

For a reason I ignore one of my post on this thread is not mentioned.
I was just stating 70 M CAD for 20000 seats...that is 3500 CAD a seat which is not cheap, more than 2000 euros a seat. For a very simple looking stadium but you never know, a lot as been put in this stadium which is really purpose built: U21 world cup, Welcome to Canada! 

regarding Parkdale fclogo I have one word LOL


----------



## Taller Better

Doveling said:


> So this stadium costs 70 million CAD ?
> This stadium in Breda , Holland was build for about 15 million USD
> capacity 17.000 people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Really? A stadium? How lovely!  I thought perhaps it was a government institution such as a hospital or sanitorium. Sturdy, utilitarian and a _true bargain_, and what appears to be miles and miles of low maintenance asphalt landscaping (so sensible for parking, especially in a suburb!). True,one might have expected a more _visually appealling_ home for the _premiere_ sport of your country, but you are setting a frugal example for your European neighbours, and I applaud you! Well done, citizens of the charming old town of Breda! :applause:


----------



## Llanfairpwllgwy-ngyllgogerychwy-rndrobwllllanty-si

^^ You can only hope the atmosphere in Toronto will ever be like in Breda







So if this stadium is a hospital what is this ??









A brand new stadium but looks old already, you really don't feel this is a missed opportunity ??

PS : check this site http://www.zwarts.jansma.nl/artefact-640-nl.html
In The Hague they build this 15.000 seater(can be extended to 27K) for 27 mil Euro
That is half price of the BMO !!!!!!!


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^^ In case you didn't understand Taller, I think he was trying to say "good for you, no one cares". Anyways, you obviously want start a pissing compitition. 

BTW, the thing ain't even finished yet.


----------



## Llanfairpwllgwy-ngyllgogerychwy-rndrobwllllanty-si

^^ I think you should care, you've been tricked with this stadium.
But anyway enjoy the matches that will be played there.
We have some good Canadian players here in NL.
Rob Friend and Jonathan DeGuzman. I hope they think this stadium is better than what they are used to in NL.


----------



## nyrmetros

Look. You can't build what is built in Europe for the same price here in North America. The prices of everything are different. It's inflation times 30 here.

Plus, most of the new soccer stadiums here are built with expansion in mind. So if the teams start making some $$, they can upgrade the stadiums and make em either bigger or look nicer.


----------



## Llanfairpwllgwy-ngyllgogerychwy-rndrobwllllanty-si

^^ So , have you ever been to Europe ?
Found it cheap ?


----------



## nyrmetros

Doveling said:


> ^^ So , have you ever been to Europe ?
> Found it cheap ?


I'm not saying Europe is cheap. But you can certainly build a nice stadium for less $$ in parts of Europe. Granted, we Americans have to spend half our stadium budget on suits, sky boxes, lounges, etc..... idiots...


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Doveling said:


> ^^ I think you should care, you've been tricked with this stadium.
> But anyway enjoy the matches that will be played there.
> We have some good Canadian players here in NL.
> Rob Friend and Jonathan DeGuzman. I hope they think this stadium is better than what they are used to in NL.


De Guzman is staying at Feyenoord, he's too good for the MLS. The true test to see if we've been "tricked" with BMO, is attending a match, we I expect on doing so many times!


----------



## Neda Say

We should just get real here. It's not a super expensive stadium it's just a stadium making a statement in temrs of design. 
However sith the room for expansion this stadium could easily be turned into a 35000 seater (adding a deck on the second main stand and closing the stadium by the BMO videoboard) . If you just consider this, this stadium is going to be a very clever investment.

Especially if soccer becomes the number one summer sport in Canada, right behind Football. And Soccer is already really popular in BC and Quebec. I can't wait to see games between Montreal Impact and Toronto FC they are to be annonced soon.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ From Wiki:



> Soccer has been one of the many popular recreational sports in Canada and has overtaken hockey as the sport with the most registered players in Canada, but professional soccer is considerably less popular then contemporary sports, and has had much less success developing than in the rest of the world.


Anyways, I was doing some thinking. Imagine a match in August, when the CNE is going on, the atmosphere, especially with the freaking Snow Birds and F16s flying above us (BMO)!!!


----------



## Canadian Chocho

And I guess we have an OKAY view...lol...


----------



## mr.x

*BC PLACE STADIUM ROOF COLLAPSES (2010 Olympic Stadium)*

*The roof at B.C. Place stadium has collapsed*

Vancouver Sun
Published: Friday, January 05, 2007

The roof at B.C. Place stadium has collapsed.

The fabric roof fell into the empty stadium shortly after noon today.

The cause was not immediately determined, Vancouver has suffered all morning from a combination of bitter cold, strong winds and heavy sleet.

The roof is held up by air pressure, so even a tiny tear in the fabric could cause the roof to collapse. The stadium is home to the B.C. Lions football club, and was built in time to open for Expo 86.

The Vancouver Sun is following this story. If you have any information, please e-mail [email protected]
© Vancouver Sun 2007




i think the stadium roof was weakened by all the snow, wind, and rain we had late last year.....think about it: 30 cm of snow, hundreds and hundreds of mm of rain, and hurricane force winds. the stadium has survived isolated weather events like today before (isolated=no storms before or after), until today.


----------



## spongeg




----------



## pompeyfan

that's not good. But they should be ready for the olympics still


----------



## Taller Better

Doveling said:


> ^^ I think you should care, you've been tricked with this stadium.
> But anyway enjoy the matches that will be played there.
> We have some good Canadian players here in NL.
> Rob Friend and Jonathan DeGuzman. I hope they think this stadium is better than what they are used to in NL.



Perhaps you would be best to leave it at that Doveling. I don't think many of us understand why your are being so rude about this attempt to raise the profile of soccer in our city. I doubt very much if any Canadian would ever react that way about an ice skating arena if it were to be built in The Netherlands....


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Shit!


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Congrats Vancouver!! Your getting a new stadium!!!


----------



## mr.x

UPDATE: Apparently, the stadium concrete walls are on a slight incline and the roof also supports the walls. If the roof is not re-inflated soon, the walls will eventually collapse by themselves.


At least we'll get a much needed stadium renovation for the Olympics.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ LoL, I read on Wiki that some locals wanted an open air stadium badly and even joked that hopefully the torch would burn the roof off!


----------



## nomarandlee

Yikes, might as well just go with an open air stadium anyway. Just glad it wasn't full of people at the time.


----------



## Vilak

It's sad, i love BC place...


----------



## mr.x

nomarandlee said:


> Yikes, might as well just go with an open air stadium anyway. Just glad it wasn't full of people at the time.


The stadium can't be converted into an open air stadium...there's no drainage.


----------



## savas

Just a question.. The BC is the Olympic Stadium right? It will be used for the opening and closing ceremony? Shouldnt it be under rennovation? for the olympics?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ Then it shall go through the ultimate transformation!!


----------



## mr.x

savas said:


> Just a question.. The BC is the Olympic Stadium right? It will be used for the opening and closing ceremony? Shouldnt it be under rennovation? for the olympics?


Unlike what you Greeks did for 2004 [awesome Olympics btw], Vancouver will not be spending much on stadium renovations. I believe they were only planning to spend $5 million in renovations by 2010.

The stadium will host the Olympic Opening/Closing Ceremonies, nightly Olympic Medal Ceremonies, and Paralympic Opening Ceremony.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Can't you just hold conventions at GM?


----------



## Marcanadian

How will it be paid for? They won't spend the $5 million on the new roof I hope.


----------



## mr.x

Canadian Chocho said:


> Can't you just hold conventions at GM?


Way too small, especially for: A monster truck rally? A boatshow???


----------



## mr.x

Marcanadian said:


> How will it be paid for? They won't spend the $5 million on the new roof I hope.


Well, the sound and lighting systems are located on the roof.....meaning those systems have probably been destroyed. The roof is also touching many seats, suggesting that those seats may be destroyed as well. The stadium seats 60,000.

A new roof, which is probably now required, would cost $40 million.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Well at least you know not to go with kevlar.


----------



## savas

Is there any information about what can be done? Can they just repair the roof? Or must they build a new roof?

>>>> A new roof, which is probably now required, would cost $40 million.

OK...


----------



## Canadian Chocho

If they go for a new roof, would a retractable be an option, you might as well get something out of this.


----------



## mr.x

The domed roof of B.C. Place Stadium collapsed with a loud bang in Vancouver on Friday afternoon, leaving the torn fabric hanging over the landmark facility.

Two City of Vancouver workers told CBC News that there appeared to have been a hole in the inflated roof of the building that is to host the opening and closing ceremonies for the 2010 Winter Olympics.

They said they heard some flapping of the Teflon-coated fabric, followed by what sounded like an explosion.

*They said they believe the whole internal roof support structure may be gone.*

A CBC listener who lives in the Citygate condos near the stadium told CBC Radio he could see a 10-metre tear in the roof, which now looks like a "reverse dome."

Trevor, a part-time worker in the stadium, said he was inside the facility when he noticed that the roof was sagging and was warning other workers about the possible danger when "huge gusts of wind caught the slack in the roof, and it was an intense sound."

He described it as the sound of "elephants running through your living room. It was thunderous."

He said there was a seven-metre tear in the roof that "grew across the bottom and travelled up one side, and there was like the whole corner flapping, the sound was insane."

There have been no reports of injuries.

Former CBC journalist Kathryn Gretsinger said the deflated dome was the "strangest sight ever" as she travelled into downtown Vancouver over the Cambie Bridge.

She said there was only a circular rim of concrete visible when looking up from outside.

The stadium, which is home to the B.C. Lions football team, seats 60,000 and was built more than 20 years ago for Expo 86. It has been the largest air-supported stadium in the world.


----------



## savas

a "good" thing about this happening now is that they have enough time to repair... Imagine this happening 1 month before the opening?!!!!!


----------



## mr.x

UPDATE: The teared panel is replaceable - a new roof is not required. A new panel is being flown in as we speak. This was a controlled deflation: workers, upon discovering the rip, decided to shut down the fans and let the roof collapse for the safety of the public.


----------



## Mo Rush

abuja has competition.


----------



## mr.x

All the roof lights exploded; the electricity was cut to the stadium in order to minimize further damage.

The damage seems to have occurred close to Gate G on the south side. Over the preceding several hours, a significant amount of snow settled on the dome. The snow on the peak of the dome shifted and cascaded down all sides. The weight of the snow proved too much and a part of the dome caved in. The caving of the roof caused a rip, which subsequently collapsed the remainder of the roof.


----------



## alta-bc

> UPDATE: Apparently, the stadium concrete walls are on a slight incline and the roof also supports the walls. If the roof is not re-inflated soon, the walls will eventually collapse by themselves.



I have an official souvenir book from 1983 which is all about BC Place Stadium.
According to the book, a deflation is part of it's design, so I would be surprised if it collapsed further. Fully deflated, the roof does not touch any seats or the main floor. Also, the roof has valves in it to prevent it from accumulating rainwater. There shouldn't have been snow accumulation on it because there are actually two layers of fabric and between the two, hot air is pumped it to melt the snow.


----------



## mr.x

Apparently, there's a small drainage system in the stadium floor for these kinds of events and it should take only a few days to repair the roof. The roof panel is being shipped from Buffalo, NY.


----------



## mr.x

UPDATE: Hardly any damage, other than the roof, was done to the stadium. It was a "minor event". The new panel arrive in Vancouver by the beginning of next week.


----------



## mr.x

The Vancouver Organizing Committee for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games (VANOC) issued a news release today, saying: "BC Place has a highly experienced team of professionals and we have every confidence in the ability of their engineers to rectify the situation. It's a terrific facility that has a rich history of hosting some of BC's most memorable moments and we look forward to hosting our Ceremonies in BC Place for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games."


----------



## mr.x

Here's a video of the roof tearing, the link is in the link below:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/index.html


Picture gallery from CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/photogallery/canada/224/


More links to more videos provided by CTV:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070105/roof_collapse_070105/20070105?hub=TopStories



More videos provided by Global National:

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/national/index.html#


----------



## Mo Rush

imagine the roof falls apart during the opening..ouch


----------



## Marcanadian

Thanks for the links Mr. X, you're all over this story!

Good thing the panel can be replaced and not much damage was done.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

toonintoronto's pics from flickr:














































Beleive it or not, these were taken on January 3rd!


----------



## mr.x

^ hopefully, it'll make the government re-evaluate BC Place for a major renovation in time for 2010.


----------



## Overground

^^thanks for the pics. I'm loving the red more and more!



hngcm said:


> Cuz for some reason Canada still has ties to the Queen of England.hno:


First of all we don't have any ties to Britain, as the Queen is the Queen of Canada, a completely different thing then the Queen of Great Britain. Second, there hasn't been a Queen of England for 300 years, which would have been Queen Anne in 1707.

Back on the topic of BMO Field. There is word that English Premier club Aston Villa is considering doing a tour of Canada and the US this year. So far Vancouver has been the only place mentioned but I would hope that Toronto would be in the mix as well, it would have to be. And for god sakes I hope they televise this stuff finally!


----------



## Plumber73

"The stadium can't be converted into an open air stadium...there's no drainage."

<<< Sure it can. You just need to put the drainage in. It's not rocket science. 

My preference, is that the whole floor would be broken up for a true grass field.


----------



## hngcm

Queen of Canada is the same person as the Queen of the UK. 

I don't see how that isn't a tie...


----------



## Overground

hngcm said:


> Queen of Canada is the same person as the Queen of the UK.
> 
> I don't see how that isn't a tie...


Huh? Sorry I don't understand.

The Queen is individually the head of state or monarch of 16 independent countries. They are known as Commonwealth Realms, 16 Crowns if you will that just happen to share the same person. A global family that's pretty special if you ask me. Anyway this is a thread on BMO Field and isn't the place to discuss this. Moving on.........

How much are Toronto FC season tickets guys and any word when the pitch will go down?


----------



## Neda Say

Thanks for the links mr.x 


Just for those who do not know about it: the 2010 Olympics might be the last mega event that BC Place will host. It will be demolished some times after the Games and the land will be sold to real estate businesses. 

Everybody in Van was hoping that this would not happen. Anyway the roof is going to be replaced and everything will be fine.

There's a reason they have a dome instead of a regular stadium. When it rains in Van, it just does for weeks and weeks. This stadium in it's actual configuration is really cheap to run and can welcome a very wide selection of event. from football games to Tradeshows.

BC place was supposed to get minor improvement for 2010 anyway so that will just add up to the bill and yes it's spectacular but not dramatic the best news is that nobody was injured. Forget about a draining system in it. this stadium as something like 5 to 6 years to live according to greedy real estate people.


----------



## Taller Better

hngcm said:


> Queen of Canada is the same person as the Queen of the UK.
> 
> I don't see how that isn't a tie...


Of course she is the same woman. It is like one person being a director on two boards.


----------



## thryve

Could the thing around cost issues at all be related to the fact that in Holland, football/soccer is a bigger part of life, whereas in Canada, we don't build many soccer stadiums?

Just a small idea... I may be wrong though.


----------



## Plumber73

*Just for those who do not know about it: the 2010 Olympics might be the last mega event that BC Place will host. It will be demolished some times after the Games and the land will be sold to real estate businesses.* 
<<< Is this fact - it being demolished? Since it is losing money every year, then my guess is it will end up being demolished. But last I heard was that decision was still up in the air. 

*Everybody in Van was hoping that this would not happen. Anyway the roof is going to be replaced and everything will be fine.*
<<< No, only a small section from what I've heard on the news.

*There's a reason they have a dome instead of a regular stadium. When it rains in Van, it just does for weeks and weeks. This stadium in it's actual configuration is really cheap to run and can welcome a very wide selection of event. from football games to Tradeshows.*
<<< I don't think the people running it think it's cheap, as they lose several million dollars each year.

*BC place was supposed to get minor improvement for 2010 anyway so that will just add up to the bill and yes it's spectacular but not dramatic the best news is that nobody was injured. Forget about a draining system in it. this stadium as something like 5 to 6 years to live according to greedy real estate people.*
<<< Uggghhh. The stadium could continue standing 50-100 years. It's only the roof's life span that is at risk.


----------



## mr.x

The decision on the stadium's future has not been decided. Demolishment are only rumours fanned out by greedy real estate developers.

And yes, only one section of 144 sections of the roof was damaged. A replacement section is being flown in and will arrive on Monday. 

BC Place is still a very functional stadium.....the only problem is the roof, which has a manufacturer's guarantee of 25 years (built in 1982, expires 2008). A new stadium of BC Place Stadium's size would cost $400-600 million today.....we could easily renovate it for much less.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Overground said:


> Huh? Sorry I don't understand.
> 
> The Queen is individually the head of state or monarch of 16 independent countries. They are known as Commonwealth Realms, 16 Crowns if you will that just happen to share the same person. A global family that's pretty special if you ask me. Anyway this is a thread on BMO Field and isn't the place to discuss this. Moving on.........
> 
> *How much are Toronto FC season tickets guys* and any word when the pitch will go down?












As for the pitch, I really don't know.


----------



## Skybean

It looks very cheap. Barebones cement and plastic bucket seats.


----------



## Overground

Well the season tickets look quite reasonable and I'm not surprised the yellow section got sold out. I'd probably get tickets near the supporters end(more fun) in the $500 range.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Skybean said:


> It looks very cheap. Barebones cement and *plastic bucket seats*.


Everyone knows you're not supposed to sit down in a soccer match!!


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Hope fully they build the Whitecaps stadium soon, it would suck if you guys end up with a Lion/Caps Stadium.


----------



## mr.x

BC Place as the world's largest rain bucket.











On better days.


----------



## EarlyHits

It almost looks like a Skytrain rail to me in your first photo. Which means our stadium is in a pretty bad shape aesthetics wise, with or without the roof. Seriously, Turin's stadium was so new and clean. When they come and see our opening ceremony, they'll go "WTF?"


----------



## mr.x

EarlyHits said:


> It almost looks like a Skytrain rail to me in your first photo. Which means our stadium is in a pretty bad shape aesthetics wise, with or without the roof. Seriously, Turin's stadium was so new and clean. When they come and see our opening ceremony, they'll go "WTF?"


i agree, but i'd think they'll banner up the entire exterior of the stadium....similar to the large building banners in Salt Lake '02.


----------



## Neda Say

Plumber73 said:


> *Just for those who do not know about it: the 2010 Olympics might be the last mega event that BC Place will host. It will be demolished some times after the Games and the land will be sold to real estate businesses.*
> <<< Is this fact - it being demolished? Since it is losing money every year, then my guess is it will end up being demolished. But last I heard was that decision was still up in the air. .
> 
> *There's a reason they have a dome instead of a regular stadium. When it rains in Van, it just does for weeks and weeks. This stadium in it's actual configuration is really cheap to run and can welcome a very wide selection of event. from football games to Tradeshows.*
> <<< I don't think the people running it think it's cheap, as they lose several million dollars each year.



The decision lies partly with the development of the zone after the Olympics. most developper want to buy the stadium, tear it down and develop it the "Yaletown" way... Yes, yet no decision has been taken!
But it makes sense to have Yaletown being expended all the way down to Telus World of Science and having the Olympic Village connecting Yaletown to False Creek 

At the same time BC lions have expressed their wishes to play in an open air field stadium with real grass. 

Vancouver is also building at great cost an expansion to the convention center. This convention center is expected to attract most of the trade shows right now staged in BC place. If some think BC place is an expensive place to run as it is now. Think of the price it's going to be once the tradeshows will choose to go to the new waterfront convention centre.


----------



## nyrmetros

Wow, the entire supporters end has sold out??


----------



## mr.x

*New tears found in B.C. Place roof*
Last Updated: Sunday, January 7, 2007 | 3:39 PM ET
CBC News

The accumulation of rainwater and continuing harsh weather have caused further damage to B.C. Place Stadium, says management.

After a large section of the roof was torn during a sleet storm Friday, workers have found other less serious rips.

"We believe they can be fixed right now," general manager Howard Crosley said. "But we need to have another assessment, and if there's another piece needed, we'll get another one in."

A panel of fabric to repair the roof was expected to arrive sometime this week, but there has been no word yet on when the work will be done.

Representatives for the roof's manufacturer were to fly in Sunday, and an overall damage assessment was expected by Monday.

Vancouver firefighters have joined workers on top of the building to help clear water that's been pooling on the deflated roof.

"There are holes in the roof that have plugs in them, and the plugs have to be removed to let the water out," Crosley told CBC News.

Inside the stadium the cleanup has gone well, he said.

"There's no water in the building. There are sandbags all around the critical areas within the building. We've got all of the electrical vaults sandbagged, so there's no risk of danger there."

The inflated white roof ripped during a storm that brought wind and heavy, wet snow to Vancouver on Friday. The roof was deflated to avoid further damage.

*Poor maintenance cited by NDP*

The New Democrat MLA for Delta North says a lack of proper maintenance may be to blame for the roof collapse.

Guy Gentner first raised the issue in the legislature last May, warning the roof was in bad shape.

"B.C. Place Stadium is close to its end. The roof is ready to fall down, according to the service plan. Its anticipated lifespan is coming to an end. Could the minister tell us when the life-cycle replacement is due on the roof at B.C. Place Stadium?"

Olga Ilich, who was then the tourism minister, offered this reassurance.

"Apparently the roof is expected to last another 15 to 20 years if it's maintained properly in its current state," she told the house.

She also confirmed that it costs more than $300,000 a year to maintain the roof.

The stadium, which is home to the B.C. Lions football team, seats 60,000 and was completed in 1983, three years ahead of Expo 86. It has been the largest air-supported stadium in the world.



*VIDEOS OF STADIUM ROOF COLLAPSE*

YouTube Part 1

YouTube Part 2

YouTube Part 3


----------



## mr.x

Interior of the stadium - hanging only 25 feet above the floor









NEW VIDEO - BC PLACE WORKERS being told to evacuate the stadium immediately
http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/media/070105-bcplace.ram



*B.C. Place heating system wasn't set properly*

Updated Sun. Jan. 7 2007 6:36 PM ET

Canadian Press

VANCOUVER -- The heating system at B.C. Place wasn't set to snow-melt mode Friday when the roof collapsed, the Crown-owned building's general manager said Sunday.

Howard Crosley said the stadium's roof was draining normally and there weren't large accumulations of snow that day.

"There was a little bit of snow that was on the roof but it was dealt with and it was no need for us to go into snow melt mode,'' he said.

The air-suspended fabric covering torn Friday during a wild wind and sleet storm following a moderate overnight snowfall.

The entire roof was brought down in a controlled deflation to prevent further damage. No one was injured.

*Engineers discovered three other smaller rips as strong winds and heavy rain continued into the weekend.

"(One tear) may require another replacement of fabric but the other two are smaller tears and we feel are probably reparable just as they are,'' Crosley said.

Representatives from the roof's manufacturer in New York were scheduled to assess the damage on Sunday and advice officials as to what steps should be taken. 

Crosley said replacing a panel instead of the whole roof would save money but no decisions would be made until insurers was consulted.*

B.C. Place operators have less than three weeks to fix the roof.

The B.C. Contractors show and Landscaping Expo were still scheduled for Jan. 23, according to the event calendar on the B.C. Place web site.

Crosley said much of the water that leaked into the stadium had been drained and all events for the stadium would go on as planned.

Members of Vancouver's fire department were called in Saturday to help a rigging company remove plugs on the roof in order to drain pooling water.


----------



## Mo Rush

gives new meaning to bringing the roof down.


----------



## mr.x

The skyline now completely altered (photo credit by David)


----------



## Loranga

How energy efficient is an air supported dome?


----------



## Plumber73

mr.x said:


> BC Place as the world's largest rain bucket.


Toilet.


----------



## Neda Say

Ok! What comes next then ?


----------



## Plumber73

*"The decision lies partly with the development of the zone after the Olympics. most developper want to buy the stadium, tear it down and develop it the "Yaletown" way..." *
<<< I hope that doesn't happen - more of the same condos... 

*At the same time BC lions have expressed their wishes to play in an open air field stadium with real grass. *
<<< I wish the BC lions expressed that wish 25 years ago. I can't see why they couldn't just retrofit BC Place into an outdoor stadium.

*Vancouver is also building at great cost an expansion to the convention center. This convention center is expected to attract most of the trade shows right now staged in BC place. If some think BC place is an expensive place to run as it is now. Think of the price it's going to be once the tradeshows will choose to go to the new waterfront convention centre.*
<<< If that happens, then that will probably be the nail in the coffin.


----------



## Mr. Fusion

mr.x said:


> *VIDEOS OF STADIUM ROOF COLLAPSE*
> YouTube Part 2


From this footage I would describe it as being "popped" instead of "collapsed".

:grouphug:


----------



## Neda Say

There's one last thing going the way of destroying bc some time after the olympics.

Waterfront Stadium, the "future" stadium of the Caps would be less than 1K away from BC place, if built. Having GM place and BC place right next to each over made sense. having two outdoors stadium, a lot less. Besides the rumors of the destruction are also connected to rumors to build the new stadium somewhere east (near Hasting???) to help rejuvenate this area. This totally make sense.

It was reported that BC lions ownership would prefer a slightly smaller outdoor stadium capacity 35 to 45000 seats extendable occasionally to 50000. Small is beautiful and easier to manage. And a lot better when tv is broadcasting the game. However this is really a rumor. See link below.

I personnaly like BC place because it make sense to have a multipurpose facilty able to house mega event. The problem being it doesn't host that many mega events. I really enjoy football games played outdoor.

Does anybody have accurate running cost for BC place. there was an article on the Vancouver sun website indicating 1.4 M cad but I think it was a typo.

here's an article from Mike Beamish, Vancouver Sun (please copy/paste in your browser URL bar) 

B.C. Place too important to scrap, says Braley

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/bc/news/story.html?id=b7b1a143-1422-4cd2-bf2d-74aa8f0444c0&k=95570


----------



## Mo Rush

how to describe this stadium: confused


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Wow!!! I don't even care about the design, I'm just happy you guys got it!!


----------



## Neda Say

I would not say confused I'd say very original roof. looks a lot better than Canada Inns anyway. The Bombers going private. well as long as the new owner doesn't screw everything Winnipeg built. Why not!


----------



## mr.x

This was the original design for the new stadium at a different site, however it was cancelled. I believe it seated 40,000 and was expandable to 50,000.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

What happened to this:


----------



## Plumber73

Why does there seem to be such a huge contrast in interest between the Toronto Lynx and Toronto FC? The crowds showing up at Lynx games were maybe a few thousand? Now you've got possibly 20 thousand for MLS. Sure, the MLS could be considered a higher level, but that's hardly noticeable and even debatable. The new stadium perhaps? I could see the same thing happen in Vancouver and Montreal. I just don't know what people see in MLS that is so much better they finally decide to go to games. They can't be hardcore fans of the game in my opinion, just fans of what they think is big league. 

I am happy that Toronto FC is taking off, don't get me wrong.


----------



## mr.x

Canadian Chocho said:


> What happened to this:


O_O

ok....so, in total, how many stadium designs have the Bombers gone through?


----------



## nomarandlee

That looks very cool. When was the last purpose built football/soccer stadium built in Canada? This would seemingly be the most innovative and bold by far. 

The roof looks very cool. The one thing I would be a little worried about are the shadows. Especially on TV alternating bands of shadow/sunlight can be pretty distracting. All in all very cool stadium.


----------



## mr.x

nomarandlee said:


> That looks very cool. When was the last purpose built football/soccer stadium built in Canada? This would seemingly be the most innovative and bold by far.
> 
> The roof looks very cool. The one thing I would be a little worried about are the shadows. Especially on TV alternating bands of shadow/sunlight can be pretty distracting. All in all very cool stadium.


BMO Field is currently being built in Toronto with 20,000 seats to house soccer (football), Canadian football, and possibly rugby (i think). Before that was the completion of Toronto's SkyDome in 1989 and Vancouver's BC Place Stadium in 1983.


----------



## nomarandlee

mr.x said:


> BMO Field is currently being built in Toronto with 20,000 seats to house soccer (football), Canadian football, and possibly rugby (i think). Before that was the completion of Toronto's SkyDome in 1989 and Vancouver's BC Place Stadium in 1983.



True, I kinda forgot about BMO Field. This looks consideably nicer (and bigger) to me though.

Skydome is still a baseball stadium at heart I would think, definatly not a purpose built football/soccer stadium.


----------



## Mo Rush

Neda Say said:


> I would not say confused I'd say very original roof. looks a lot better than Canada Inns anyway. The Bombers going private. well as long as the new owner doesn't screw everything Winnipeg built. Why not!


its calatrava gone wrong nothing else...glad about the stadium but sheesh


----------



## Jack Rabbit Slim

I personally like the look of the stadium, Winnipeg could do with something like this, because although the old stadium went through many rennovations, it is still a bit of a dump, and they usually have pretty good attendances I think, although I don't follow 'football' at all, so I'm no expert.

They spent over nine million dollars for a renovation in 1999, how can they afford to build this new stadium??


----------



## Jack Rabbit Slim

Btw, those supporting roof cables are gonna create a sh*# load of shaddows on the pitch!


----------



## trebor204

Pics and Videos at

http://www.blueandgold.ca/


Only 40,000?
Not enough for NFL franchise.


----------



## mr.x

trebor204 said:


> Pics and Videos at
> 
> http://www.blueandgold.ca/
> 
> 
> Only 40,000?
> Not enough for NFL franchise.


WOW. That's awesome.





































The NFL would never come to Winnipeg. It would be difficult to get into Canada anyway, maybe Toronto as an exception but if that ever happens it would be the end of the NFL.


----------



## th0m

I think it looks pretty sweet.


----------



## Mo Rush

remove the arches....use that money to complete the roof and provide cover to all spectators..


----------



## Zorba

I don't really like it at all. The arches seem out of place with that stadium, and the seating structure is nothing intriguing.


----------



## NavyBlue

^^ 
USA . . . USA . . . USA

Is it just me or do Canadian sports only prosper when they're associated with their big brother down south?

It's definitely the impression I get looking from afar and IMO it's a shame if it's true. :bash:


----------



## EarlyHits

Downtown Waterfront is the only place discussed right now for a new stadium. Though it's not for the Lions.
I wouldn't mind seeing a stadium or any kind of construction in the large weed field on Westminster Hwy down at Richmond.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Overground said:


> Unfortunately, I agree. Probably one of the factors why *people elsewhere in the world* won't take MLS seriously. That aside, I'm glad we have it anyway.


See, this league is based in the United States, in the USA, you can't name a league the Premiership or A-Series or anything like that. To entertain americans, you have to americanize the game for example the shitty names (only some teams). Thankfully now it is becoming a regular soccer league.


----------



## Riise

simadon said:


> and to the... Calgary guy: Why do we bother funding Olympic venues and teams with our tax money. Stop with the constant hate-ons.


It's not Eastern hate but a valid issue. The Federal Government should fund deserving amateur and national sporting projects and _if_ BMO Field was a wise national sporting project to fund I'd be game. Building a National stadium in Toronto is not the wisest decision because, for starters, there already is a perfectly good national stadium in Edmonton which is, a) already built, and b) the only natural grass stadium in Canada with a large enough capacity to host a World Cup Final. Now, if you say we need a smaller stadium that we can fill more easily and Edmonton is too cold why not build one in Vancouver? It has a warmer winter climate and is one of the only places in Canada where a National Centre for our program could be run outdoors year round. My final reason why a national stadium should not be built in Toronto is a because of a fact that is very impressive; Toronto's foreign born population is 44%. If a Canadian team played a match in Toronto they would pretty much lose their home field advantage and with the reserved nature of Canadian fans it could actually end up being a hostile (not hooligan like but rather intimidating) environment.

Like I said earlier, this project is going ahead so my continued bitching would be pointless. My only main concern now is how the park looks. It's going to suck having visitors to Canada sitting in BMO field during the final of the U-20 World Cup looking up an saying, "What a wonderful skyline, why couldn't this place be as nice?"


----------



## Taller Better

Riise said:


> Like I said earlier, this project is going ahead so my continued bitching would be pointless.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll hold you to that.
Click to expand...


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Riise said:


> It's not Eastern hate but a valid issue. The Federal Government should fund deserving amateur and national sporting projects and _if_ BMO Field was a wise national sporting project to fund I'd be game. Building a National stadium in Toronto is not the wisest decision because, for starters, there already is a perfectly good national stadium in Edmonton which is, a) already built, and b) the only natural grass stadium in Canada with a large enough capacity to host a World Cup Final. Now, if you say we need a smaller stadium that we can fill more easily and Edmonton is too cold why not build one in Vancouver? It has a warmer winter climate and is one of the only places in Canada where a National Centre for our program could be run outdoors year round. My final reason why a national stadium should not be built in Toronto is a because of a fact that is very impressive; Toronto's foreign born population is 44%. If a Canadian team played a match in Toronto they would pretty much lose their home field advantage and with the reserved nature of Canadian fans it could actually end up being a hostile (not hooligan like but rather intimidating) environment.
> 
> Like I said earlier, this project is going ahead so my continued bitching would be pointless. My only main concern now is how the park looks. It's going to suck having visitors to Canada sitting in BMO field during the final of the U-20 World Cup looking up an saying, "What a wonderful skyline, why couldn't this place be as nice?"


I'm tired of arguing so like you said, it's pointless bitching because it is already about 70% done. So what we can do is look for the positive aspects of this project and appreciate them (remember, Toronto is Canada too) and agree that it's not an expensive project worth bitching at If it was 2 billion dollars, then I would understand.


----------



## Wezza

Canadian Chocho said:


> See, this league is based in the United States, in the USA, you can't name a league the Premiership or A-Series or anything like that. *To entertain americans, you have to americanize the game for example the shitty names* (only some teams). Thankfully now it is becoming a regular soccer league.


Unfortunately, this seems to be true.


----------



## mr.x

10-15 cm of snow expected tonight.


----------



## nyrmetros

As a Yank, it is true.


----------



## hngcm

nyrmetros said:


> Right. It's the depth level. The USL D1 teams have pulled upsets, but by and large they can't compete with an MLS squad on a daily basis.
> 
> I love both the USL and MLS, Hopefully 1 day they will merge.


Well not a complete merge, as that would lead to 26 teams, too many. 

Maybe a promotion system that promotes teams from USL to the MLS.


----------



## Llanfairpwllgwy-ngyllgogerychwy-rndrobwllllanty-si

^^ does the MLS not have a relegation system ??
If I am correct the players do not belong to the clubs but to the American FA,right? So how do they devide the players.If one team does bad,will they get players from a better team in the next season??


----------



## Canadian Chocho

I don't think it has.


----------



## Plumber73

The MLS doesn't have a relegation system. Too bad, because I think it would add more meaning to winning/losing games. I don't see it happening any time soon, and I'm not sure MLS fans could ever get used to the idea.


----------



## Neda Say

I think I they could merge . They're not going to do it or at least not right away but if you think of it having 26 teams in the league would not be terrible... First because some teams in the USL will just say know to MLS. Some will not survive it, so the league in the end will probably a 20/22 team league which is okay cause you don't have a cups and don't really play continental events right now. although one way to get exciting games would be to have DC United facing independientes of Boca junior in the Copa Libertadores. No I don't consider the concacaf events to be relevant
international competition

they should just merge concacaf and comebol then we would have fun. then the level of us and canadian teams would improve and so would the national teams Ok I'm just daydreaming here.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ I think that's even more far fetched than my dream.


----------



## ale26

Its pretty ugly but i can learn to like it. I mean Canada isn't really known for soccer as much as something like hockey. But anyways this is a good beginning and hopefully it will be expanded and made to look nicer on the outside. Wtf with the brick ? LMFAO


----------



## Canadian Chocho

If you mean the brick on the stadium than I think it's nice. It is a nice alternative to the cold, imposing concrete of the SkyDome.


----------



## Neda Say

Canadian Chocho said:


> ^^ I think that's even more far fetched than my dream.



I said I was dreaming, dreams by definition don't have to be realistic :nuts:


----------



## jimjones

mr.x said:


> O_O
> 
> ok....so, in total, how many stadium designs have the Bombers gone through?


I think they have gone thru as many designs as montreal and ottawa have gone out of business for franchises combined LOL. 
When I was last in winnipeg in 1990 they had a scheme to have the winnpeg jets and the blue bombers under a dome. It had it so the endzone stands for be moved down the f
ield from one end to make the third side of an nhl ice surface. 

jim jones

PS. what happened to daivd asper committing about 65 million to the project?
Is he getting cold feet or a reality check on prices for a modern stadium ???


----------



## Neda Say

let's get realistic Winnipeg needs a stadium I mean a good one. Do they need that I don't know is it good looking I think it is rather good looking a good compromise. However not being a dome its use will be limitated. Can you sustain this kind of investment with just what ten CFL games. What else could Winnipeg attract probably some music fest and CIS football events.

A MLS franchise in the Peg I don't think so. Build the stadium to NFL specs ok that is easy but then what you have a big stadium what do you do with it? Why would you waist that knid of money never to get a franchise.

I don't really care what design is going through I just Winnipeg to get one 

One last thing will it be grass or astroturf?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

True...

Tupac for president!!


----------



## Canadian Chocho

FieldTurf!!! AstroTurf is ancient!!


----------



## mr.x

Here is the stadium's new temporary roof panel. In a few days, the specially manufactured permanent panel would have arrived and they will put the permanent panel over the temporary.










AND here's a time lapse video of the reinflation of the roof:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=Canada&video_link_high=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/01/19/ctvvideologger2_500kbps_2007_01_19_1169242082.wmv&video_link_low=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/01/19/ctvvideologger2_218kbps_2007_01_19_1169240440.wmv&clip_start=00:00:03.06&clip_end=00:00:52.05&clip_caption=Time-lapse footage of the dome inflating&clip_id=ctvnews.20070119.00179000-00179480-clip1&subhub=video&no_ads=&sortdate=20070119&slug=BC_storm_070119&archive=CTVNews


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Why do they insist in the Whitecaps and Lions merging. If this whole SSS+football thing keeps on going, soccer will keep rising but CFL will just be going backwards.


----------



## EarlyHits

Oh the new panel looks so awkward.


----------



## jimjones

mr.x said:


> Here is the stadium's new roof panel. As you can see, it's quite a contrast between new and old - white and dirty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AND here's a time lapse video of the reinflation of the roof:
> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=Canada&video_link_high=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/01/19/ctvvideologger2_500kbps_2007_01_19_1169242082.wmv&video_link_low=mms://ctvbroadcast.ctv.ca/video/2007/01/19/ctvvideologger2_218kbps_2007_01_19_1169240440.wmv&clip_start=00:00:03.06&clip_end=00:00:52.05&clip_caption=Time-lapse footage of the dome inflating&clip_id=ctvnews.20070119.00179000-00179480-clip1&subhub=video&no_ads=&sortdate=20070119&slug=BC_storm_070119&archive=CTVNews


well that looks temporary and out of place with original design . I would think that is the plan and it looks like they had to improvise perhaps because of damage to other panel??? that is fully inflated ???

I would say they will try to get thru the winter and then see about replacing the roof because the looks of that they could be at the same place this time next year. LOL

jim jones


----------



## mr.x

^ Actually, that's a temporary panel. When the specially manufactured permanent replacement panel arrives, they'll simply put the new panel over the temporary panel.


----------



## jimjones

mr.x said:


> ^ Actually, that's a temporary panel. When the specially manufactured permanent replacement panel arrives, they'll simply put the new panel over the temporary panel.


Yeah Mr. X sorry for the rapid reaction I just know the look of this design very well and it did seem out of place. Waiting to the permanent panel would probably go into a couple of more weeks and have it so trade shows couldnt be held. By the looks of things they would probably have to replace panels beside the main one that tore

jim jones


----------



## Neda Say

Looking good again, "almost".


----------



## skaP187

Canadian Chocho said:


> Hmm...three designs, and only one to choose...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ I like Aspers design. (#3)


I feel a poll coming up...


----------



## Neda Say

All old big names, are they going to do it again, it reminds me of pele playing for NY. I hope they won't just attract these guys and then say hey we 've superstars now. I hope they just keep on investing on local players and infrastructure. Soccer can be big soccer will be big if they don't mess around thinking they can do in one day what took years to be done elsewhere. I know they have money and franchise system is great for businessmen but they could kill the fan base if they get it wrong again.

Long Live The Toronto FC


----------



## skaP187

MidnightHours said:


> All the fans I've talked to and including myself don't want a full cover, we want it to be mostly opened up. It's a game thats meant to be played out in the open. A full cover would just piss fans off and even turn some people away from the game. Only the last two games of the season, along with playoffs, are played later in the year. Besides that it's usually sunny with warm weather. Open stadiums provide a better atmosphere.
> 
> The roof is great how it is. It's something different from what Winnipeg or the CFL has seen before. The only real problem during games with having no roof is that the east side has the sun beating down on them during the summer, but this partial roof should be enough to stop that.



tough guys in Canada, If it was in Spain or SA I could understand, but with Canada I always imagine snow and polarbears and so on , but I guess that's just me


----------



## Plumber73

jimjones said:


> Yeah Mr. X sorry for the rapid reaction I just know the look of this design very well and it did seem out of place. Waiting to the permanent panel would probably go into a couple of more weeks and have it so trade shows couldnt be held. By the looks of things they would probably have to replace panels beside the main one that tore
> 
> jim jones


I only see some grime and dirt. Not sure why they'd need to be replaced. Cleaned perhaps.


----------



## nyrmetros

It's 1 player outside the sal cap. However I think the sal cal should be raised, as some players on the squad are only making 16 k a year and need a second job and thus can not be 100% committed to the game. With that said, it's 1 player outside the cap, not 11.


----------



## mr.x

*Workers raise the roof on a patched-up BC Place*
Stadium will be an 'icon' at the 2010 Olympics, mayor says


Maurice Bridge, Vancouver Sun
Published: Saturday, January 20, 2007

Looking once again like a plump marshmallow in bondage, the inflatable roof of BC Place is back in place.

Inside, rain was still dripping through drainage holes into pools of standing water on the concrete floor late Friday morning, but general manager Howard Crosley said a gardening and landscape show scheduled to start Tuesday would go ahead as planned.

Friday's re-inflation of the largest air-supported dome in the world followed two weeks of frantic work after human error, a weak fabric panel and windy conditions combined to cause a section of the roof to rip open, forcing its immediate deflation.

The 4.15-hectare, Teflon-coated glass-fibre fabric roof suffered significant damage from the rapid deflation and a subsequent windstorm.

Workers began the re-inflation process by pumping off water which had accumulated on the collapsed roof in order to reduce its weight.

Shortly before 9 a.m., building staff started up the first of 11 fans which create the air pressure that holds up the roof. The fans kicked in at 15-second intervals, pumping air into the dome and raising the internal pressure of the building.

As 30 riggers inspected the roof from the inside for tears in the fabric and kinks in the cables, the rectangular side-panels were inflated, followed by the top diamond panels, which had collapsed inwards.

The initial phases of the inflation were nearly indiscernible, but the concave fabric around the cables of the sunken roof gradually began to swell.

At the west end of the building, the new triangular panel -- its new white fabric a contrast to the rest of the dirty grey roof, which has withstood the elements since 1983 -- was clearly visible, edged with a dark seam.

By 9:15, the outer edge of the roof was level with the concrete ring beam at the top of the building, and by 10 a.m., the centre of the roof had reached the height of the rim, rising like a souffle in an oven.

By 10:15, portions of the roof were visibly rising and falling as the fabric began to assume its intended shape. Shortly after 11, the job was done, and riggers began an external inspection of the roof and its cables.

The drain holes will be closed, and engineers will complete their inspection before the building is officially open for business again. A BC Place representative said crews setting up the landscaping show could be in the building as early as Sunday.

Crosley thanked the riggers, engineers and others who worked on the roof, saying they had "literally put their lives on hold for two weeks" to get the job done. He said their quick work helped to minimize damage to the structure.

Eight out of 35 luxury boxes suffered some water damage, but it was reported to be easily repairable.

Vancouver Mayor Sam Sullivan added his thanks, and said the building occupies an important place in Vancouver,

"BC Place is active 220 days a year, and it is important for our sporting sector, our cultural sector and our business sector," he said.

"I am so pleased to have BC Place back functioning now."

The damage to the roof has sparked a debate about the long-term future of BC Place, but Sullivan said during the 2010 Winter Olympics, it will "be the icon, not just for the city or the province, but for the world."

Crosley said he does not yet know the final cost of the repair.

[email protected]
© The Vancouver Sun 2007


----------



## mr.x

Images of the roof inflation:


----------



## Plumber73

I think they can also trade for a player that is outside the salery cap, so they'd end up with two. Not sure though.

You got to wonder what players would be thinking when they have someone earning many many times their salary playing beside them.


----------



## jimjones

skaP187 said:


> tough guys in Canada, If it was in Spain or SA I could understand, but with Canada I always imagine snow and polarbears and so on , but I guess that's just me


Well Winnipeg is full of tough people but the fighting off of polar bears occurs in Churchill Manitoba about 650 miles north. Polar bears habitant is in the Artic ocean areas as that is where their food is LOL. 
http://www.greatcanadiantravel.com/churchill_winnipeg_train_via_rail.htm
The train to get there is about 1700 KM or over a thousand miles and it is the only land route. It looks like a fantastic trip and a good price. I always wanted to go there . I would have then been to 3 of the four oceans of the world and 
going to Perth Australia would be on my list thus seeing the indian ocean. 

Yes and we do have Shopping Malls and IMAX movie Theatres in winnepeg LOL. Before people from winnipeg jump on me I am sure you will get the joke
because winnipeg was where the first IMAX theatre was opened. 

jim jones


----------



## Neda Say

You did it once again Mr. X: amazing pics thanks


----------



## Neda Say

Really one player above the cap or two player above the cap what's the difference! I think the salary cap should be raised a bit. But no player should be paid USD 10M when most are paid less than 20k. I personaly like the CFL cap system although it's not really working. I just want to see competitive teams, if you have a cap linked to earnings you will put a few teams in jeopardy. That's my fear! Especially if you think that MLS is still "loosing" money.


----------



## mr.x




----------



## nyrmetros

11, 000 season tickets sold.


----------



## Gordon Freeman

is it going over the rail yard, or over the water? there are 2 pictures with the stadium over different spots


----------



## mr.x

Gordon Freeman said:


> is it going over the rail yard, or over the water? there are 2 pictures with the stadium over different spots


it's going over water and the existing SeaBus terminal. the railyard plan is cancelled.

i just bolded and resized the picture titles to make things clearer.


----------



## hngcm

BMO Field, eat your heart out.


----------



## nyrmetros

it's not a competition between the two. As long as these stadiums get built, ya'll can worry about beautificiation upgrades later.


----------



## nyrmetros




----------



## Canadian Chocho

I just hope all this CFL nonesense ends.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Wow, only 7 left.


----------



## Overground

MLS Commissioner Don Garber at the BMO Field news conference last year stated that Vancouver and Montreal were on the radar screen for an expansion team in 2010 and beyond.

"...The commissioner of the league has stated that those two markets, combined with the proper ownership, and combined with the proper playing facilities, which is the troika of opportunities that MLS is seeking, that being proper market size, proper ownership, and proper stadium facilities..." 

I also saw on Global News tonight that the Whitecaps are quite possibly hosting a friendly against LA Galaxy in the summertime at BC Place. This will only 'cause much more interest locally for MLS and help showcase Vancouver to the MLS.


----------



## mr.x

Canadian Chocho said:


> I just hope all this CFL nonesense ends.


Well, if BC Place goes it's either they move to the new downtown waterfront stadium or they move out to the middle of nowhere in suburbia Surrey.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

I'm sure you guys are awaiting an MLS team, right? If the Lions and the Whitecaps share a stadium than you'll be screwed. MLS really wants SSS, they have been sharing with football teams since the begining and really don't want to share any more.

And again, 30K is too small for the Lions.


----------



## Neda Say

For one weird reason I kinda prefered the first lay out. Actually it's not a weird reason but I was hoping to see this stadium soon and with this new plan and the gigantic amount of work that will have to be done before getting the stands of the ground well I don't know if I should believe in it. 

I mean, I think the lay out is even nicer than the previous, but there's just so much to be done in order to get it.

Yes the site is unbelievable and we would get one additional stand but when would this thing be up and running?! 2010, really with private funding!!! 

I just can't quite believe it. It's too good to be true!


----------



## Neda Say

I don't really want to have the caps sharing the pitch with the Lions I hate to see football marking on a sss and I hate to see football lines on a football field.


----------



## mr.x

Neda Say said:


> For one weird reason I kinda prefered the first lay out. Actually it's not a weird reason but I was hoping to see this stadium soon and with this new plan and the gigantic amount of work that will have to be done before getting the stands of the ground well I don't know if I should believe in it.
> 
> I mean, I think the lay out is even nicer than the previous, but there's just so much to be done in order to get it.
> 
> Yes the site is unbelievable and we would get one additional stand but when would this thing be up and running?! 2010, really with private funding!!!
> 
> I just can't quite believe it. It's too good to be true!


It's possible...the city seems to really like the proposal now and the NIMBY's have gone away.....and Kerfoot is prepared to finance the stadium at almost any cost.


----------



## nyrmetros

11, 5000 season tickets sold.


----------



## nyrmetros

get it done!


----------



## nyrmetros




----------



## nyrmetros

12, 000 sold.


----------



## Overground

Wow, that's fantastic news. Keep em coming!

ps. does anyone have any news yet on televised matches?


----------



## nyrmetros

Overground said:


> Wow, that's fantastic news. Keep em coming!
> 
> ps. does anyone have any news yet on televised matches?


Look for the CBC and another network to televise games.


----------



## Overground

Speaking of the devil, I just found some great news!

*Beckham debut, every game televised on 2007 MLS slate*
February 6, 2007

NEW YORK (TICKER) -- American soccer fans will have as many opportunities as possible to see David Beckham.

The MLS on Tuesday released its 2007 schedule, in which every match will be available via national or local telecasts for the first time in league history.

The season begins April 7, when D.C. United visits the Colorado Rapids in the first MLS match in Dick's Sporting Goods Park, a new soccer-only facility in Commerce, Colorado. It will be televised by ABC.

That is one of 113 nationally televised matches spread across four network partners - ABC/ESPN, Fox, Univision and HDNet.

ABC also will air MLS Cup 2007 on November 18 in Washington. ESPN2 will broadcast the All-Star Game on July 19 at Dick's Sporting Goods Park featuring the league's top players taking on Celtic FC of Scotland.

Each network will televise matches on a specific day. ESPN2 will televise on Thursday nights. On Saturdays, various Fox networks and HDNet will show games. Univision's networks will televise matches on Sundays.

The remaining matches not slated for national TV will be shown regionally, marking the first time in the 12-year history of MLS that every match on the schedule will be broadcast in some capacity.

In addition to Beckham, the 2007 season features the debut of expansion team Toronto FC, the first MLS team based outside the United States.



What this means for Canada I'm not sure. The ABC games we will obviously get but I'm not sure about those ESPN ones.


----------



## Overground

Ok I have a list of Toronto's matches that will be televised for viewers in the US. 
Also I just read that The Score sports channel will be televising MLS games starting this year but I don't know how many.

Saturday, April 07
Toronto FC at Chivas USA, 10:30 p.m., FSC

Saturday, April 28
Kansas City Wizards at Toronto FC, 3:30 p.m., HDNet

Saturday, May 12
Chicago Fire at Toronto FC, 3:30 p.m., FSC

Sunday, June 17
FC Dallas at Toronto FC, 1:00 p.m., TeleFutura

Saturday, July 07
Toronto FC at Chicago Fire, 8:30 p.m., FSC

Sunday, July 29
Chicago Fire at Toronto FC, 4:00 p.m., TeleFutura 

Saturday, Aug. 25
D.C. United at Toronto FC, 7:30 p.m., FSC

Saturday, Sept. 29
Toronto FC at D.C. United, 7:30 p.m., HDNet

Thursday, Oct. 04
New York Red Bulls at Toronto FC, 7:00 p.m., ESPN2

Saturday, Oct. 13
Toronto FC at Los Angeles Galaxy, 10:30 p.m., FSC

Saturday, Oct. 20
New England Revolution at Toronto FC, 3:30 p.m., HDNet


----------



## Canadian Chocho

What about CBC?


----------



## Overground

I've got some more confirmed information from the Globe and Mail yesterday.

POSTED ON: 12/02/07

WILLIAM HOUSTON
Globe and Mail Update


*....the CBC is expected to pick up a schedule of games involving Toronto FC, the new Major League Soccer franchise. Part of the CBC's World Cup agreement involves a commitment to local soccer coverage. The Score is expected to be Toronto FC's other leading carrier of games.*


This totally makes sense because of the CBC's future WC commitments to FIFA and the Score's recent pinching of EPL matches from Sportsnet. With the CBC possibly losing NHL games in the future, they might want to really cement themselves as Canada's football network.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ Yeah, they lost CFL rights to TSN too!! 

"Soccer night in Canada" here we come.


----------



## Overground

Holy crap I didn't know that! Well they really have no choice then.


----------



## kinggeorge

i think the stadium is too small with so much hype over toronto fc i think the stadium will need expansion within 3 years, season tickets are going like crazzy


----------



## Neda Say

Well I see no reason for this stadium not being upgraded. the groundwork for expansion has been partly done. If TFC is successfull and if money can be found this stadium will be expanded.


----------



## Overground

Is there schematics of what an expansion would look like and how much it would expand by?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

I would say probably about 5K.


----------



## nyrmetros

Ideally, after the first season, the outside visuals of the stadium can be upgraded.


----------



## nyrmetros

only 500 season tickets left......


----------



## nyrmetros




----------



## Zaki

I just passed by it this friday and gotta say, it looks far more decent than i thought it would. Its actually not a bad stadium. And hopefully if it gets upgradedin the future, it can turn out to be a truly great stadium.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ Some one was on the Gardiner.


----------



## nyrmetros

so have the Nimby's finally stopped?


----------



## Overground

There hasn't really been any news the past couple of weeks.


----------



## nyrmetros

it's official, via email from the club itself ---- 13,000 tickets now sold


----------



## GNU

^^ great to see that fotball is getting more popular in north america.


----------



## Zaki

Checker said:


> ^^ great to see that fotball is getting more popular in north america.


Soccers always been popular in Toronto. I remember we had the biggest crowds ut of all the cities when the top european teams toured North America a few years back.


----------



## UD2

what a poor excuse for a soccer stadium. I hope they put real walls up as soccer becomes more popular and important in Toronto.


----------



## 3tmk

The Montreal Impact are building their own Saputo stadium, watch out because they're among the best team in the USL, and after the Canada exclusive deal ends in 2010, it might be a good fit for an expansion team.

Personally I hate the MetroBulls, but I'm stuck with them until they give us a second team in New York.

BTW, great job Toronto, sold out new stadium is pretty rare for us in the MLS.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Now that would be a rivalry!


----------



## Neda Say

the saputo stadium is going to be a 13000 seater during his first phase it should be completed by sept 08. And it could be later expended to 17 or 19000 seats. A bit small for the new mls standard... But the Impact is a usl champ, I'm mre than sure than they can beat any mls powerhouse nights in and nights out. They have tremendous support from the people of Montreal selling out all games last year. For sure that would be great. And they should also get the Whitecaps this way we could have a canadian triple crown tournament in addition to canadian teams dominating the mls. 

GO TO


----------



## Canadian Chocho

And after that!!






A Canadian league!!


----------



## nyrmetros

yes, or at least a MLS Candian division, but preferrably a Canadian league run by SUM with close ties to MLS.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

I think the A-League should be used as a model for a Canadian leage.


----------



## Overground

I think an MLS presence in Canada is all we'll be able to focus on for some time. We need Van and Montreal in for 2010! If we did ever have a Canadian league again then the A-League could be a good idea. 

I like how Australia has rebranded their entire football association to a more international image and distance itself from the dated soccer branding. Their marketing has added a great deal of appeal to their national team and league. They're ranked 40th in the world now and qualified for the last WC. They're doing something right and we should take a look at what they're doing. 

Take a look at the n e w (2005) logo for the rebranded Australian Football Federation formerly Australian Soccer Association.










Canada is ranked 103 now, sandwiched between Uganda and Malawi. An absolute disgrace and there needs to be some serious intervention to remedy this. I'm not saying rebranding is the answer, obviously, but it is eventually a part of the package to creating interest in the team when and if they start winning again. 

Oh dear,


----------



## Neda Say

Give it some time guys. We aren't quite there yet.

Let's first get a merger between the USL and the MLS. Impact will not join willingly unless the MLS supremo sells most of its franchise, lower the admission fee and allow Nike, Puma, Reebok, Puma and Umbro to supply teams with kits. The Whitecaps should enter it first provided their stadium gets off the ground. 

A canadian A-league would be good but calendar and stadia would be an issue in most cities. Unless we were to get a worldcup and were authorized to build a bunch downsizeable 40000 seaters. Who's in for a canadian bid


----------



## Canadian Chocho

They changed the retro font!


----------



## Wezza

I've never really understood why football isn't bigger in Canada, having a large French population and all.


----------



## Breakwood

Wezza said:


> I've never really understood why football isn't bigger in Canada, having a large French population and all.


The French population in Canada aren't like the French from France at all. They very much are their own group who just happen to speak French. French-Canadians live, breathe and sleep hockey, even moreso than the English-Canadians.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

The "French" population you refer to is not French at all. That is to say, you should not mistake them as somehow being akin to the French from France. Although there are francophones outside Quebec, the majority of them are Quebecois, and believe me, the Quebecois culture has very little to do with that of the French. Although soccer has become the most practiced sport in Quebec, it doesn't have some kind of long history and revered tradition. 

There are several factors, but I would say that the biggest one is very simple, for a long time Canada has been a one trick pony... ie. HOCKEY.

Damn, Breakwood, you beat me to it!


----------



## Overground

Canadian Chocho said:


> They changed the retro font!


Thank god they changed the font. I wonder if my persistant emails to them helped in the decision...LOL...probably not. They still have the old one all over their website though.

>just wanted to add. That Aussie logo above is for their football federation but the ones they use on their kits are the coat of arms of Australia which looks really cool.


----------



## The Gazmon

Overground said:


> I think an MLS presence in Canada is all we'll be able to focus on for some time. We need Van and Montreal in for 2010! If we did ever have a Canadian league again then the A-League could be a good idea.
> 
> I like how Australia has rebranded their entire football association to a more international image and distance itself from the dated soccer branding. Their marketing has added a great deal of appeal to their national team and league. They're ranked 40th in the world now and qualified for the last WC. They're doing something right and we should take a look at what they're doing.
> 
> Take a look at the n e w (2005) logo for the rebranded Australian Football Federation formerly Australian Soccer Association.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada is ranked 103 now, sandwiched between Uganda and Malawi. An absolute disgrace and there needs to be some serious intervention to remedy this. I'm not saying rebranding is the answer, obviously, but it is eventually a part of the package to creating interest in the team when and if they start winning again.
> 
> Oh dear,



Just on that point, (as of April 1st 2007) all the state federations are now known as Football Federations. Such as Football NSW, Football Victoria etc etc.

However, the tag "Socceroos" still exists, and most likely never die... 

That said, having the FFA is far better than Sokah Austraya.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Enjoinze!


----------



## EADGBE

Overground said:


> Oh dear,


The font used there is very similar to a Windows font called 'Logo'. I'm always amazed at just how many companies use it in their corporate branding - as if they've seen it on their PC and said:

"right, we'd better use this the next time we change our image."

When I see a logo and a company name in this font beneath it, I always feel it might as well just say:

"We have no imagination and think that people who talk about 'branding' are not to be trusted"

Harsh perhaps, but probably fair...


----------



## Canadian Chocho




----------



## mr.x

looks quite awesome!


----------



## canarywondergod

with the open-ness of this stadium that pitch should stay looking great


----------



## MegasAlexandros

^^ That would be true... if it were natural grass, which it isn't.


----------



## Neda Say

this turf looks great...not natural but great. The stadium looks ok although they should have placed some seat under the BMO board. the pitch is not as close to the behing the goals zones as I thought it was going to be. But it should look pretty good with 20000 fans cheering in for TO.


----------



## Canadian Chocho




----------



## Riise

I have to admit, although I don't support the MLS coming to Toronto nor the belief that professional leagues are crucial to the game's development, after looking at the pics of the stadium and the players running about the pitch I'm a wee bit excited. I guess the football force is strong in me...


----------



## isaidso

Wezza said:


> I've never really understood why football isn't bigger in Canada, having a large French population and all.


Because they aren't French, they're Canadians who speak French. There's a huge cultural difference between someone from France and a francophone Canadian. 

It also explains why, to a huge extent, sports like rugby, cricket, and netball don't even register with Canadians. Sport is totally dominated by the big 3 Canadian sports: basketball, football (or Canadian Football to those outside North America), ice-hockey, and to a lesser extent baseball which has strong origins outside the country.

Canada is a cultural island unto its own when it comes to sport, with the one exception being the USA which shares Canadian tastes in sport.


----------



## Riise

isaidso said:


> It also explains why, to a huge extent, sports like rugby, cricket, and netball don't even register with Canadians. Sport is totally dominated by the big 3 Canadian sports: basketball, football (or Canadian Football to those outside North America), ice-hockey, and to a lesser extent baseball which has strong origins outside the country.


I was talking to my friend about this the other day, we came to the agreement that hockey has an outright domination of the sports landscape and the big three actually looks like this:

1. Hockey
2. Hockey
3. American Football.

Outside of Toronto baseball and basketball aren't that big, the big 2 in Canada are pretty much Hockey and Gridiron. However, I think footy has a definite chance to make Canada a three sport nation. If only it could get its shit together...


----------



## 3tmk

isaidso said:


> Canadian Football to those outside North America


What is Canadian Football :?


----------



## Breakwood

3tmk said:


> What is Canadian Football :?


Basically the same thing as American football, but with minor variations, like a bigger field, less downs, extra player.


----------



## Zaki

Riise said:


> I was talking to my friend about this the other day, we came to the agreement that hockey has an outright domination of the sports landscape and the big three actually looks like this:
> 
> 1. Hockey
> 2. Hockey
> 3. American Football.
> 
> Outside of Toronto baseball and basketball aren't that big, the big 2 in Canada are pretty much Hockey and Gridiron. However, I think footy has a definite chance to make Canada a three sport nation. If only it could get its shit together...


True and its kind of surprising. Basketball is very popular in Toronto yet it completely fails to register in any other city. Hopefully its not the same with soccer as well.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Zaki said:


> Hopefully its not the same with soccer as well.


That's about as "Toronto is the center of the Universe" a comment as you could have made... :nono: 

So are you saying that soccer doesn't register elsewhere but the "hotbed" of soccer that is Toronto??? Ever heard of the Manic? How about the Impact and the Whitecaps?? Soccer has been registering OUTSIDE Toronto for some time now... how are the Lynx doing?

:cheers:


----------



## matherto

well I just hope someone in the UK picks up the rights to MLS (which they should do with Becks being over there).

might not be the best football, but I'd still certainly watch it. The J-League has a highlights show on Sky FFS, so MLS maybe should have as well


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Riise said:


> I was talking to my friend about this the other day, we came to the agreement that hockey has an outright domination of the sports landscape and the big three actually looks like this:
> 
> 1. Hockey
> 2. Hockey
> 3. Canadian Football.
> 
> Outside of Toronto baseball and basketball aren't that big, the big 2 in Canada are pretty much Hockey and Gridiron. However, I think footy has a definite chance to make Canada a three sport nation. If only it could get its shit together...


There we go.


----------



## leaf345

MegasAlexandros said:


> That's about as "Toronto is the center of the Universe" a comment as you could have made... :nono:
> 
> So are you saying that soccer doesn't register elsewhere but the "hotbed" of soccer that is Toronto??? Ever heard of the Manic? How about the Impact and the Whitecaps?? Soccer has been registering OUTSIDE Toronto for some time now... how are the Lynx doing?
> 
> :cheers:


Thats not what he said at all.



Wezza said:


> I've never really understood why football isn't bigger in Canada, having a large French population and all.


He also have a large English population, and they don't like soccer either!


----------



## MegasAlexandros

leaf345 said:


> Thats not what he said at all.


He was talking about basketball not being big other than in Toronto, and then said he hoped soccer didn't turn out to be the same... I think that's pretty self-explanatory.



> He also have a large English population, and they don't like soccer either!


Please tell me you are just being sarcastic??????????:uh:


----------



## leaf345

MegasAlexandros said:


> He was talking about basketball not being big other than in Toronto, and then said he hoped soccer didn't turn out to be the same... I think that's pretty self-explanatory.
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me you are just being sarcastic??????????:uh:



Exactly. Hoping that something is not true does not equate to saying something is true. But I'll let him explain his own comment.

Huh? I was just saying: Thinking that soccer should be popular in Canada because we have French Canadians is as silly as thinking soccer should be popular in Canada because we have English Canadians.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Okay, guys that's enough. Be nice to the Megas, after all, the poor fellow lives in Montreal.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Being a nice guy, I'll pretend you didn't just write that...


----------



## Overground

Toronto is down 1 nil after halftime at Chivas.

Damn I wish this match was on normal cable TV. We really need Sportnet or somebody to get some matches on for us.

Somebody should start, or myself, an Official Toronto FC thread or what might be better, is a Sport thread in Canada Urban Issues. That way we can discuss a whole range of Canadian sport or sport in general. Since we don't have a Skybar it would be great, similar to the UK The Sports Field and Aussie The Sports Club in their respective Skybars.


----------



## You are to blame

^^ Sportsnet Ontario is carying the game as a write

1-0 Chivas 80 min.


----------



## Overground

Damn, I am foolish! I didn't check my local listings. I was on the MLS site the other day and all I saw was that it will be on FSC. It looks like it will be the only one on Sportsnet this month so far. It says on MLS that the next two matches this month will be on the MLSLive pay internet thing.


----------



## 3tmk

you got beaten 2 nil
That's a shame, but at least I hope the team puts on a great show for the home opener


----------



## Riise

A two-nil loss ain't that bad for a first match. Wasn't Chivas the highest scoring team in the league last year? I remember hearing something about them being quite adept at putting the ball in the back of the net on FSR last night.


----------



## Zaki

MegasAlexandros said:


> That's about as "Toronto is the center of the Universe" a comment as you could have made... :nono:
> 
> So are you saying that soccer doesn't register elsewhere but the "hotbed" of soccer that is Toronto??? Ever heard of the Manic? How about the Impact and the Whitecaps?? Soccer has been registering OUTSIDE Toronto for some time now... how are the Lynx doing?
> 
> :cheers:


Thats not what i said at all. There were comments about MLS expanding to other cities such as Vancouver and Montreal. I just said that i hope it doesn't turn out like the NBA in Vancouver. I never said soccer isn't popular elsewhere. I am just saying i hope the MLS is popular elsewhere.


----------



## Neda Say

I think there's no risk of having a soccer franchise going the same way the nba franchise went... Vancouverites just like soccer and a minimum of 6000 people are going to all the games of the whitcaps and these numbers are only low due to the poor capacity of swangard stadium. Really this team is an USL champ I think that shows enough. I don't want to hear anything about the impact taking the same path as the expos !!!


----------



## Riise

Neda Say said:


> I think there's no risk of having a soccer franchise going the same way the nba franchise went... Vancouverites just like soccer and a minimum of 6000 people are going to all the games of the whitcaps and these numbers are only low due to the poor capacity of swangard stadium. Really this team is an USL champ I think that shows enough. *I don't want to hear anything about the impact taking the same path as the expos !!!*


I think the biggest difference between football and baseball (MLB) in this country, is the fact that baseball has already reached its peak popularity while football is no where close to reaching its peak, or stabilized level.


----------



## Neda Say

You're absolutely right. the other great thing about football/soccer... It is Fun lol and not yet only about the money (in America at least)


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Damn!! Oh well; we'll kick the Revs' ass!


----------



## a?b?c?

i think that in the future, they should renovate the stadium, like maybe put a roof on it, maybe and some more seats or somethin', right now i'm workin on my own design of a renovated BMO field...


----------



## a?b?c?

well, i wouldn't really call it "renovating," more like expanding or somethin'...


----------



## Overground

^I like the enthusiasm and definitely show us some designs when you're done. I don't really think though that they will do any sort of extension or roof implementation for a awhile.

In regards to Vancouver supporting a team. I think the one thing that football can bring is much more people from different cultures interested. It's already popular worldwide and only getting more popular. I'm not saying basketball, gridiron, and baseball aren't but perhaps football has a wider appeal. I think Vancouver would definitely not have a problem supporting a Whitecaps FC team in MLS.


----------



## a?b?c?

originally, i was goin for a stade de suisse-like replica, but the eastern stand in BMO field sorta ruined that, so i decided maybe add another tier to the southern stand and a roof like the athens olympic stadium, anyway i'm still tryin 2 design what BMO's gonna look like, maybe somebody else can make some designs of a future renovated BMO field?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Second game tonight!


----------



## Plumber73

A 4-0 hammering by New England. 

First game at BMO is April 28th.


----------



## Neda Say

ouch


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Bollocks! In my mind that was a 3-nil game!


----------



## Zaki

Plumber73 said:


> A 4-0 hammering by New England.
> 
> First game at BMO is April 28th.


Yo don't worry, every new team has a hard time rising, in a few years, Toronto fc will be champions


----------



## Alle

Riise said:


> I was talking to my friend about this the other day, we came to the agreement that hockey has an outright domination of the sports landscape and the big three actually looks like this:
> 
> 1. Hockey
> 2. Hockey
> 3. American Football.
> 
> Outside of Toronto baseball and basketball aren't that big, the big 2 in Canada are pretty much Hockey and Gridiron. However, I think footy has a definite chance to make Canada a three sport nation. If only it could get its shit together...


Is there a playoff in the MLS or qualification to some American equivalence to the european champions league? Wondering becouse a leaguetable can be quite finalised/predictable quite long before the last game. And as there seems there are no relegation in MLS either it would make it quite booring for the rest of the season.


----------



## Plumber73

Zaki said:


> Yo don't worry, every new team has a hard time rising, in a few years, Toronto fc will be champions


I'm actually not a fan of Toronto FC, just interested in the sport and where it's going in this country. 

I saw a few polls out there, maybe they were the same, about where TFC would finish. The majority of people seemed to think they'd make the playoffs. I'm not so sure about that. Even after watching the first game, I thought it'll be a long season for em. Hopefully for them, they should be more comfortable at home with a full house and the special turf...


----------



## Canadian Chocho

They'll get there (the playoffs)!! Just wait 'til Ronnie O'Brien!


----------



## Rizzato

Im glad we were able to welcome your new team to the MLS in such a fashion. :lol: nah, j/k.
I'm a fan of toronto f.c. because it is awesome to see how the league is coming together (hopefully continue expanding), and because TO has a great sporting culture with great teams. so good luck the rest of the season


----------



## a?b?c?

toronto fc is gonna get better, just wait and see, we'll be champions in no time...


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Skyline from westend.


----------



## Coffee Stain

lol i work at BMO Field, its lookin ok for the most part, but there are definitly a few problems with touch ups that need to be fixed.

As for Toronto FC, give them a season or two and they will do fine, Toronto has a large fan base of soccer fans :cheers:


----------



## CrazyCanuck

Remind me to get seats on the west side, that view is a stunner.


----------



## go_leafs_go02

well the opener has the place packed. 

0-0 at the half.


----------



## bizkit

final score ...1-0 kansas city


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Sorry I forgot my camera, I was just too worked up in the moment. I will it for the May 12th game.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/saltzman-3torontofc070428.mov

http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/saltzman-torontofc070428.mov


----------



## Breakwood

Canadian Chocho said:


> Sorry I forgot my camera, I was just too worked up in the moment. I will it for the May 12th game.


Haha, I'm in that picture! Just my head, at the bottom-centre of the picture :nuts:


----------



## eMKay

That's excellent, the stadium looks fantastic full. I'm looking forward to making the short trip up to catch a game.


----------



## nyrmetros

Canadian Chocho said:


> Sorry I forgot my camera, I was just too worked up in the moment. I will it for the May 12th game.


FANtastic.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Million dollar picture!


----------



## eMKay

I want one of those scarves (checks ebay)


----------



## matherto

you can get the highlights on mlsnet.com

sounds like a proper football stadium, great atmosphere


----------



## nyrmetros

matherto said:


> you can get the highlights on mlsnet.com
> 
> sounds like a proper football stadium, great atmosphere



yes!


----------



## Calvin W

Well the love in has begun. But the million dollar question is will the fans support the team in the long run?

I guess we will all have to wait a few years for the answer eh.


----------



## KevD

Look pretty small...


----------



## johnz88

KevD said:


> Look pretty small...


Ya...it is, it only holds 20 500 and no bigger is needed.


----------



## miguelon

thats the closer the MLS has ever seen to a real football stadium and crowd,


----------



## Zaki

Calvin W said:


> Well the love in has begun. But the million dollar question is will the fans support the team in the long run?
> 
> I guess we will all have to wait a few years for the answer eh.


Toronto has enough soccer fans to keep the team running easily. And Toronto teams from other sports enjoyed sufficient even the team was struggling.


----------



## Calvin W

Zaki said:


> Toronto has enough soccer fans to keep the team running easily. And Toronto teams from other sports enjoyed sufficient even the team was struggling.



beg to differ. MLB really struggled post early 90s. You folks went from sellouts nearly every game to an average below 30'000. The CFL well where do I begin? If not for free tickets and corporate give aways I would guess average attendance would be below 20'000 even now.

MLS may have found a niche to survive, and maybe do quite well. But like I said time will tell.


----------



## Zaki

Calvin W said:


> beg to differ. MLB really struggled post early 90s. You folks went from sellouts nearly every game to an average below 30'000. The CFL well where do I begin? If not for free tickets and corporate give aways I would guess average attendance would be below 20'000 even now.
> 
> MLS may have found a niche to survive, and maybe do quite well. But like I said time will tell.


Just cause baseball isn't selling out doesn't mean its struggling. We are right at the middle in terms of attendance in the MLB and considering that fact that we haven't made the playoffs in ages, thats quite incredible. You can expect sellout crowds when the team is struggling, thats completely natural, but no Toronto team is to a point where it cannot support the team anymore.

And as for the CFL, bring the NFL to Toronto and i would gaurantee you it would not be the same issue. The only reason CFL is doing bad (then again much better than some other CFL teams) is because a lot of people in Toronto view the CFL as the minor leagues which the MLS definitely is not.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Zaki said:


> Just cause baseball isn't selling out doesn't mean its struggling. We are right at the middle in terms of attendance in the MLB and considering that fact that we haven't made the playoffs in ages, thats quite incredible. You can expect sellout crowds when the team is struggling, thats completely natural, but no Toronto team is to a point where it cannot support the team anymore.
> 
> *And as for the CFL, bring the NFL to Toronto and i would gaurantee you it would not be the same issue. The only reason CFL is doing bad (then again much better than some other CFL teams) is because a lot of people in Toronto view the CFL as the minor leagues which the MLS definitely is not.*


Ugh! Please, NFL is not wanted here. The only true football fans that live in Toronto are the ones that go to Argo games, the rest who "like" the NFL are just in it for the hell of it! I hate the kind mentality that finds the CFL as a minor league. The CFL is probably the football equivalent (if not better) of MLS.


----------



## Tuscani01

Calvin W said:


> beg to differ. MLB really struggled post early 90s. You folks went from sellouts nearly every game to an average below 30'000. The CFL well where do I begin? If not for free tickets and corporate give aways I would guess average attendance would be below 20'000 even now.
> 
> MLS may have found a niche to survive, and maybe do quite well. But like I said time will tell.


Yes, the Jays attendance record has slumped... but baseball isn't as popular as soccer in this city. Also, the Skydome holds over 50,000 people... its simply harder to fill. BMO field is less than half the size and should have no problem looking full.


----------



## Zaki

Canadian Chocho said:


> Ugh! Please, NFL is not wanted here. The only true football fans that live in Toronto are the ones that go to Argo games, the rest who "like" the NFL are just in it for the hell of it! I hate the kind mentality that finds the CFL as a minor league. The CFL is probably the football equivalent (if not better) of MLS.


Well thats great for you but when the hell did i say i was a true football fan? You may not want the NFL here but you should atleast agree to the fact that a lot of people do want it. Like you said, the mentality of seeing the CFL as a minor league does exist. (whether you hate it or not doesn't really matter) Having so few teams jsut exagerates the problem, a problem the MLS does not have as it has more teams and is growing.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Zaki said:


> *Well thats great for you but when the hell did i say i was a true football fan?* You may not want the NFL here but you should atleast agree to the fact that a lot of people do want it. Like you said, the mentality of seeing the CFL as a minor league does exist. (whether you hate it or not doesn't really matter) Having so few teams jsut exagerates the problem, a problem the MLS does not have as it has more teams and is growing.


When did I say you were a supposed "true" football fan?


----------



## hngcm

The CFL is a de facto minor league of the NFL. 

That's why good CFL players move up to the NFL and NFL players who are going through a bad spell sometimes go to the CFL (or NFL Europe).


----------



## Calvin W

So pro sports in Toronto are doing great if you believe what some people state.

I'm simply wondering how long the honeymoon will last with the MLS before support slips. The ONLY team guaranteed to sell out is the Maple Leafs. All others dispite what people think or say struggle to fill the stands.

Will the MLS do any different? Be it 2 years, 5, 10?

Like I stated TIME WILL TELL.


----------



## middas22

Gotta agree with Zaki on this one. Id never pay to go to CFL game, the only way id go if a freebee was thrown my way. Im sure im in the minority on this board but the NFL would sell in Toronto but would sadly put an end to the Argos and the CFL in this city. Why wouldnt TRUE football fans want to see the best football players in the world? Im all for being Canadian and supporting the CFL but just like the NHL is the best hockey league in the world the NFL is the best for the same reasons.


----------



## Riise

middas22 said:


> Gotta agree with Zaki on this one. Id never pay to go to CFL game, the only way id go if a freebee was thrown my way. Im sure im in the minority on this board but the NFL would sell in Toronto but would sadly put an end to the Argos and the CFL in this city. Why wouldnt TRUE football fans want to see the best football players in the world? Im all for being Canadian and supporting the CFL but just like the NHL is the best hockey league in the world the NFL is the best for the same reasons.


I find that attitude bloody pathetic, and unfortunately too often in North America. They only want to see the best play the sports they like instead of their city or community's team. How sad is it that the love of seeing the best is stronger than the love of the game...

Not to start a Toronto hate-fest but I think the primadonna attitude and desire to only see the best leagues is stronger in Toronto that other Canadian cities. Montreal and Vancouver strongly support USL 1st Division clubs but the former Toronto team had almost zero support. I think it fucking pathetic that Toronto had no love for a Second Division football club but are going ape-shit for a First Division club.

However, this attitude of only supporting professional teams and trying to create professional leagues without consideration of the importance of amateur leagues and player development will be the reason why Canada and America will take ages to become decent footballing nations, or possibly never will...


----------



## Calvin W

middas22 said:


> Gotta agree with Zaki on this one. Id never pay to go to CFL game, the only way id go if a freebee was thrown my way. Im sure im in the minority on this board but the NFL would sell in Toronto but would sadly put an end to the Argos and the CFL in this city. Why wouldnt TRUE football fans want to see the best football players in the world? Im all for being Canadian and supporting the CFL but just like the NHL is the best hockey league in the world the NFL is the best for the same reasons.


Just one question about the NFL. If it is so wonderful, why aren't their more players from around the World? Only the US culture seems to support the sport. Including the wannabes in Canada.


----------



## leaf345

Calvin W said:


> Just one question about the NFL. If it is so wonderful, why aren't their more players from around the World? Only the US culture seems to support the sport. Including the wannabes in Canada.


Who cares what the rest of the world thinks? 



> I find that attitude bloody pathetic, and unfortunately too often in North America.


Nothing wrong with wanting to see the best. People play the sport for the "love of the game". They watch pro sports for top tier competition. Why would anyone not want to watch the best?

As for the Toronto FC. This team is run by Maple Leafs Sports and Entertainment. You know that means they're never going to win anything .


----------



## middas22

Calvin W said:


> Just one question about the NFL. If it is so wonderful, why aren't their more players from around the World? Only the US culture seems to support the sport. Including the wannabes in Canada.


Where exactly do you expect NFL players to come from other than the NCAA or Canada? Do you get the idea of sports?


----------



## middas22

Riise said:


> I find that attitude bloody pathetic, and unfortunately too often in North America. They only want to see the best play the sports they like instead of their city or community's team. How sad is it that the love of seeing the best is stronger than the love of the game...



When i spend my hard earned money on a sporting event i feel i should have the right to enjoy myself. I simply dont find CFL football enjoyable, if that offends you im sorry. So when i drop afew bucks yes i want to see what i feel is the best for my dollar. As for community sports i dont think professional CFL players and thier teams can be called community teams. Id pay $100 to watch an NFL game and id pay just as much to help support my community in any kind of sport game fundraiser but i wouldnt pay $5 to see an CFL game. How many times can you watch the same matchup before even you need to see something different? 

As for love of the game am i to assume you watch OHL and AHL as much as NHL? I dont so i must not love the game as much as you. 

Throw into the mix NFL fantasy football and there really is no argument.


----------



## leaf345

middas22 said:


> As for community sports i dont think professional CFL players and thier teams can be called community teams.


Another good point. The CFL is not a "community team" league, it is just a lower tier professional football league.


----------



## Zaki

Riise said:


> I find that attitude bloody pathetic, and unfortunately too often in North America. They only want to see the best play the sports they like instead of their city or community's team. How sad is it that the love of seeing the best is stronger than the love of the game...
> 
> Not to start a Toronto hate-fest but I think the primadonna attitude and desire to only see the best leagues is stronger in Toronto that other Canadian cities. Montreal and Vancouver strongly support USL 1st Division clubs but the former Toronto team had almost zero support. I think it fucking pathetic that Toronto had no love for a Second Division football club but are going ape-shit for a First Division club.
> 
> However, this attitude of only supporting professional teams and trying to create professional leagues without consideration of the importance of amateur leagues and player development will be the reason why Canada and America will take ages to become decent footballing nations, or possibly never will...


Community team?? This isn't a small town, its a big city and in big cities you have professional teams not community teams. I am not a football fan and couldn't give a shit about its development. Whats wrong with wanting to see the best if I am gonna pay for it. There are amateur leagues in sports like Hockey and Basketball where the amateur or the minor league team plays in small cities and towns where there is a more community atmosphere hence more support for a lower tier team. Why can't football and soccer be the same. Toronto and for the matter Vancouver and Montreal as well do not need minor league teams and you shouldn't expect big cities like these three to support such teams.


----------



## Riise

leaf345 said:


> Nothing wrong with wanting to see the best. People play the sport for the "love of the game". They watch pro sports for top tier competition. Why would anyone not want to watch the best?


People in Paris aren't asking for an EPL team even though the EPL is better than League One, they are supporting teams like PSG. Vancouverites aren't asking for an MLS team, they are content with the Whitecaps.



middas22 said:


> When i spend my hard earned money on a sporting event i feel i should have the right to enjoy myself. I simply dont find CFL football enjoyable, if that offends you im sorry. So when i drop afew bucks yes i want to see what i feel is the best for my dollar...


You don't offend me; I believe it's the culture of sports that you are a part of. I see sporting events as much more than just watching the best strut their stuff. I go to support a team or for the enjoyment of the game and atmosphere. When my favourite teams plays I believe that it's my duty as their supporter to help them. I cheer and sing when they do well or need a lift, and I also boo them when I think they are being unreasonable or are doing absolute foolishness. It's interesting, this past week found a course that I'd like to take during the next winter semester, _The Sociology of Sports_. 



middas22 said:


> As for love of the game am i to assume you watch OHL and AHL as much as NHL? I dont so i must not love the game as much as you.


I don't watch the WHL because my city has an NHL team. If they didn't have one however, being a fan of the game I would cheer for whatever team we had be it WHL, AHL, or even AAA Midget.



leaf345 said:


> Another good point. The CFL is not a "community team" league, it is just a lower tier professional football league.


I said city or community, and I was using the word community in a broad sense. Some cities have multiple teams so they follow the team in their area or the one a community they belong to supports. For example, if Canada started a football league that matured from a bunch of smaller amateur leagues Toronto would probably have multiple teams. If they had teams in Mississauga and Scarborough people in those areas would cheer for them because it’s their area team. In L.A. people of Latin origins might cheer for Chivas instead of the Galaxy because you they belong to the Latin community.



Zaki said:


> Community team?? This isn't a small town, its a big city and in big cities you have professional teams not community teams... Toronto and for the matter Vancouver and Montreal as well do not need minor league teams and you shouldn't expect big cities like these three to support such teams.


I believe I said _city_ or community. Vancouver and Montreal support their USL teams why couldn't Toronto? I expect cities that they say they have throngs of football supporters to cheer for their local football club.


----------



## Zaki

Riise said:


> I don't watch the WHL because my city has an NHL team. If they didn't have one however, being a fan of the game I would cheer for whatever team we had be it WHL, AHL, or even AAA Midget.





Riise said:


> I believe I said _city_ or community. Vancouver and Montreal support their USL teams why couldn't Toronto? I expect cities that they say they have throngs of football supporters to cheer for their local football club.


You answered your own question. If Vancouver or Montreal get a MLS team, I doubt there will be large scale support for the USL teams.


----------



## middas22

Riise said:


> People in Paris aren't asking for an EPL team even though the EPL is better than League One, they are supporting teams like PSG. Vancouverites aren't asking for an MLS team, they are content with the Whitecaps.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't offend me; I believe it's the culture of sports that you are a part of. I see sporting events as much more than just watching the best strut their stuff. I go to support a team or for the enjoyment of the game and atmosphere. When my favourite teams plays I believe that it's my duty as their supporter to help them. I cheer and sing when they do well or need a lift, and I also boo them when I think they are being unreasonable or are doing absolute foolishness. It's interesting, this past week found a course that I'd like to take during the next winter semester, _The Sociology of Sports_.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't watch the WHL because my city has an NHL team. If they didn't have one however, being a fan of the game I would cheer for whatever team we had be it WHL, AHL, or even AAA Midget.



So you are saying if the NFL came to your city and that city was Toronto, you would support it and it should do well. Thats what i said from the start. Toronto is a big town and should be into big time sports. The city and the fans who want the NFL here shouldnt be sacrificed because the few Argo fans fear it will be the end of thier team. As far as im concerened its a no-brainer. If the NFL decides this is a market they want to tap into then i say get out the hammer and start banging. 

As for your example of Paris and VAncouver what does Paris have to do with us and i may be wrong but isnt Vancouver suppose to get an MLS teamin the near future?


----------



## Riise

Zaki said:


> You answered your own question. If Vancouver or Montreal get a MLS team, I doubt there will be large scale support for the USL teams.


Yeah, but they currently support the Whitecaps. My point was that Vancouver and Montreal are showing great support of their USL teams yet Toronto didn't.



middas22 said:


> So you are saying if the NFL came to your city and that city was Toronto, you would support it and it should do well. Thats what i said from the start. Toronto is a big town and should be into big time sports. The city and the fans who want the NFL here shouldnt be sacrificed because the few Argo fans fear it will be the end of thier team...
> 
> As for your example of Paris and VAncouver what does Paris have to do with us and i may be wrong but isnt Vancouver suppose to get an MLS teamin the near future?


In most cases I'm not opposed to fans cheering for the new team in town, as you said it was a no-brainer; it's progression. However, in the case of the NFL it's the introduction of a foreign league and I'm all for the support of the domestic leagues. That's where my example of Paris and their football clubs came in.

Paris is without a doubt a World Class city yet they don't have any football clubs in what is arguably the best football league in the World, and which so happens to be based out of the country across the channel from them. However, they are content with having their teams continue to play in League One. If not having a team in the best league is not a problem for Paris I don't think it should be a problem for Toronto.


----------



## leaf345

Riise said:


> People in Paris aren't asking for an EPL team even though the EPL is better than League One, they are supporting teams like PSG. Vancouverites aren't asking for an MLS team, they are content with the Whitecaps.


Paris has a team in the premiere French league. It's a storied league with some top competition, and more than just 8 teams! Ligue 1 is a top league. Claiming that the relationship between EPL and Ligue 1 is analogous to the relationship between USL and MLS is ridiculous. MLS *is* the premiere league in North America. You might think that EPL has more talent that Ligue 1, but both are premiere leagues. The same can't be said for USL and MLS since the USL-1 is a lower division.

But even still, why should we care if people in other cities are supporting low tier leagues? Why is it "pathetic" that we want top competition? Like I said before, if I wanted to show my love of the game, I would play the game myself. I think the number of people we have actually playing the sport in this city would be a better indicator of our "love of the game". 
Professional sports is all about seeing top-tier competition. That's why we pay these people to play the game. I don't even like basketball, yet I still watch the NBA because its exciting to watch top athletes play the game. If I just wanted to see a couple of kids playing soccer, I would go to a park and watch.


----------



## Zaki

Riise said:


> Yeah, but they currently support the Whitecaps. My point was that Vancouver and Montreal are showing great support of their USL teams yet Toronto didn't.


Did Toronto have a team as good as the whitecaps? no. Was the Toronto team as well marketted as the whitecaps? no. Why would Toronto support a team in a minor league that plays like shit and non soccer fans don't even know exists. The only reason Vancouver supports its team is because the whitecaps are good and well markete just like Toronto FC is.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Alright you "big league" sports fans from Toronto, take a stab at this:

Let's say MLS continues to progress and grow, and eventually a promotion/relegation system is established. Maybe by shear growth of MLS or perhaps by a merger with the USL. Either way, what do you then say if TFC is relegated maybe even two tiers down? Will you stop following and supporting the team because it's no longer a "top tier" team? I mean if you guys are only interested in seeing top level sport, then surely a relegated team will not garner your attention right?

On another note, about those referring to Montreal and Vancouver joining the MLS, there is a BIG difference with Toronto. In both cases, I fully expect the existing teams (Impact & Whitecaps) to be the ones joining MLS and NOT some new franchise being established. Saputo and Kerfoot would not stand for that and eventually it will probably be in their best interest. TFC served to kill off the Lynx who now toil in the PDL.


----------



## Calvin W

Good point MegasAlexandros. I do hope the MLS does grow to a level like this and it would actually be interesting to see teams fighting it out to stay in the top tier.


----------



## leaf345

MegasAlexandros said:


> Alright you "big league" sports fans from Toronto, take a stab at this:
> 
> Let's say MLS continues to progress and grow, and eventually a promotion/relegation system is established. Maybe by shear growth of MLS or perhaps by a merger with the USL. Either way, what do you then say if TFC is relegated maybe even two tiers down? Will you stop following and supporting the team because it's no longer a "top tier" team? I mean if you guys are only interested in seeing top level sport, then surely a relegated team will not garner your attention right?



:lol: We just can't win. If we support a crappy leafs team, we're doing something wrong. If we're not supporting a crappy soccer team, we're doing something wrong. 
To answer your question, probably not. Why would we pay to see a crummy team? Just look at what happened to the Jays or Raptors when they stopped being competitive. Some of you seem to forget that professional sports is a business meant to provide entertainment. Losing teams and low tier leagues don't usually provide much entertainment. It's like saying Toronto is a bad theatre town because some crappy musical failed here. It's entertainment, not a religion. The leafs being the exception of course. That would be religion


----------



## Zaki

leaf345 said:


> :lol: We just can't win. If we support a crappy leafs team, we're doing something wrong. If we're not supporting a crappy soccer team, we're doing something wrong.
> To answer your question, probably not. Why would we pay to see a crummy team? Just look at what happened to the Jays or Raptors when they stopped being competitive. Some of you seem to forget that professional sports is a business meant to provide entertainment. Losing teams and low tier leagues don't usually provide much entertainment. It's like saying Toronto is a bad theatre town because some crappy musical failed here. It's entertainment, not a religion. The leafs being the exception of course. That would be religion


The raptors are doing extremely well currently :bash: and the jays are doing pretty good. And people haven't stopped attending the games either.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Back on the topic of Toronto FC, they released the friendly dates.











> *Toronto FC announces Benfica and Aston Villa to play at BMO Field*
> *Portuguese and English opposition to grace the pitch in Toronto
> Toronto FC Media Relations*
> 
> Toronto FC announced Monday, that two world-renowned football clubs will be making their debut at BMO Field playing in two different International Friendlies against Toronto FC.
> 
> Wednesday May 23, Benfica will kick off against TFC. The Portuguese club based in Lisbon was founded in 1908 and remains one of the big three clubs in Portugal. Benfica has the biggest fan base and the largest number of registered associates among Portuguese clubs, also having the largest number of supporters outside of its own country numbering 12 million worldwide.
> 
> Currently sitting third in the SuperLiga, they are managed by Fernando Santos and boast big name players such as Nuno Gomes, Rui Costa and Simao.
> 
> "We are ecstatic to bring one of the most recognizable clubs in Portugal to Toronto", said Toronto FC Director of Team Operations Paul Beirne. "We are aware of the number of supporters Benfica has outside of Portugal, and we know a lot of them are right here in our city, making this a perfect fit for Toronto FC."
> 
> On Wednesday July 25, Aston Villa will visit BMO Field. Villa is one of the most oldest and storied football clubs in England.
> 
> Founding members of the Football League in 1888 and a member of the Premier League since 1992, Aston Villa will prepare for their 2007-08 Premiership season with a stop in Toronto.
> 
> "Obviously, anytime you can bring a Premiership team to North America, it is a major event. We couldn't be happier to host Aston Villa and we hope our fans will be just as pleased," said Beirne. "Toronto FC is committed to bringing in quality international teams, and we know both Villa, and Benfica fit that bill."
> 
> Lead by Manager Martin O'Neill, Aston Villa currently sits 11th in the Premiership and have numerous honours to their credit. European Cup Winners in 1982, European Super Cup Winners in 1982-83, InterToto Cup Winners in 2001, and they boast seven FA Cup titles. Villa features international talent such as Thomas Sorensen, Gareth Barry, and Olof Mellberg.
> 
> Tickets will go on sale to the general public on Saturday May 12, when the BMO Field Box Office will open at 9 am. Following that, tickets can be purchased on-line at www.ticketmaster.ca beginning at noon.


----------



## leaf345

Zaki said:


> The raptors are doing extremely well currently


Yup. Which is probably why interest in the raptors has increased.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

leaf345 said:


> It's entertainment, not a religion.


Glad you said it... because therein lies the problem.  

Soccer to most people in the world is, well I won't go as far as saying religion, but definitely a question of passion. You don't go to watch just for entertainment value, it's not a movie. You support your local team through thick and thin, that's what makes a true supporter, irrespective of the sport.


----------



## hngcm

trust me, by 2011, both Vancouver and Montreal will ditch their USL teams for MLS teams.


----------



## kinggeorge

may 23 benfica and tfc woow......kats and karagounis, when do tickets go on sale


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Tickets will go on sale to the general public on Saturday May 12, when the BMO Field Box Office will open at 9 am. Following that, tickets can be purchased on-line at www.ticketmaster.ca beginning at noon.

They're really expensive though.


----------



## hngcm

Is it true that Toronto FC hasn't scored a goal in four games?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

hngcm said:


> Is it true that Toronto FC hasn't scored a goal in four games?


I'll answer you after May 12th.


----------



## tissot

Here's some pics of today. Found them on Flickr

More pics could me found here


----------



## eMKay

MegasAlexandros said:


> Alright you "big league" sports fans from Toronto, take a stab at this:
> 
> Let's say MLS continues to progress and grow, and eventually a promotion/relegation system is established. Maybe by shear growth of MLS or perhaps by a merger with the USL. Either way, what do you then say if TFC is relegated maybe even two tiers down? Will you stop following and supporting the team because it's no longer a "top tier" team? I mean if you guys are only interested in seeing top level sport, then surely a relegated team will not garner your attention right?
> 
> On another note, about those referring to Montreal and Vancouver joining the MLS, there is a BIG difference with Toronto. In both cases, I fully expect the existing teams (Impact & Whitecaps) to be the ones joining MLS and NOT some new franchise being established. Saputo and Kerfoot would not stand for that and eventually it will probably be in their best interest. TFC served to kill off the Lynx who now toil in the PDL.


Promotion and relegation in North America? Never gonna happen.


----------



## Zaki

MegasAlexandros said:


> Alright you "big league" sports fans from Toronto, take a stab at this:
> 
> Let's say MLS continues to progress and grow, and eventually a promotion/relegation system is established. Maybe by shear growth of MLS or perhaps by a merger with the USL. Either way, what do you then say if TFC is relegated maybe even two tiers down? Will you stop following and supporting the team because it's no longer a "top tier" team? I mean if you guys are only interested in seeing top level sport, then surely a relegated team will not garner your attention right?
> 
> On another note, about those referring to Montreal and Vancouver joining the MLS, there is a BIG difference with Toronto. In both cases, I fully expect the existing teams (Impact & Whitecaps) to be the ones joining MLS and NOT some new franchise being established. Saputo and Kerfoot would not stand for that and eventually it will probably be in their best interest. TFC served to kill off the Lynx who now toil in the PDL.


To grow to that level, you would need A LOT more teams then it currently has. More teams than the NBA, NFL, NHL, or MLB has which I think is unlikely. And if that does become the case, then i am sure by then Toronto will have more than one team as will all the other major cities since i doubt smaller cities could support it.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Screw all this "sports talk"! It's all about Football now!!


----------



## lpioe

^^ 
finally :banana:


----------



## tissot

More pics taken from U-Sector. I'm sure they won't mind.


----------



## The Gazmon

Frisbee's?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Seat cushions.


----------



## eMKay

Awesome! Congrats Toronto.


----------



## Benn

Even from TV you could tell that they have far and away the best fans and atmosphere in the MLS, know one else is close. Those fans would be okay be European standards (more lively than the Leverkusen game I was at a couple years ago, though not quite Hamburg). Get som more of their games on TV because that was an MLS game that was actually fun to watch.


----------



## lpioe

Was every match sold out so far?


----------



## Plumber73

Yea. I'm pretty sure the first two games at BMO were sold out.

Someone here indicated most of the stadium has been sold out for the season. The few seats left for walk-up should easily be filled. I'd expect sold out games through this season at least. It'd be great if the fans keep up the support for years to come. Should make it a no brainer to expand to Montreal and Vancouver.


----------



## nyrmetros

great stuff TFC


----------



## Neda Say

this looks really great and good job kicking the fire's ass


----------



## Canadian Chocho

The Fire's ass you mean. Although I'm certain we will kick the Crew's ass too!


----------



## Neda Say

I meant the fire but wrote the crew so I changed my post!

I guess I have some precognition powers lol


----------



## nyrmetros

http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slug=ap-stadiumrepairs&prov=ap&type=lgns

" Toronto FC is making emergency repairs to BMO Field because bolts and fasteners have fallen from the new stadium during games.

The stadium operator and team owner, Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, insists the facility is safe and that inspections and repairs will be fully completed before Saturday's MLS game against D.C. United. A fourth consecutive capacity crowd is expected.

"It is a big concern for us," MLSE executive vice president of operations Bob Hunter said Thursday, "and the grandstand builder was very quick to jump on the problems, and we are assuming that the problem has now been rectified and there won't be a reoccurrence.

"In the last two days they have gone through and checked every connection and added additional locking (nuts)."

The team's fans have quickly gained a reputation for their boisterous support for the new team. Fans have been stomping on the all-metal floors of the stadium and some reports say that caused material to fall.

"We have found a total of six objects which fans have turned in to stadium staff," Hunter said."


----------



## nyrmetros

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/...-bmo-update-18/GSStory/GlobeSportsSoccer/home

BMO Field will be safe, city inspector says

JAMES CHRISTIE

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

TORONTO — Toronto FC fans can leave their hard hats at home when they come to BMO Field Saturday to watch the team go for its third consecutive win in a tussle with D.C. United, after safety assurances from an inspector and an official of the Major League Soccer club.

There won't be any more bolts or fasteners falling from the underside of the stands, an inspection manager for Toronto Building said after an army of workers clambered through the stands tightening all the 40,000 problematic 10-centimetre bolts and adding locking nuts to some.

"The entire decking system has been checked and remedial action is expected to be complete before [Saturday's] game," Rick Flood said in an interview Friday. "They'd been aware of the problem [and] have been doing the remedials. It was a very minor problem, with only a handful of bolts coming loose, perhaps a dozen in all. But they've been going through, securing all 40,000."


----------



## ChrisDVD

"Should make it a no brainer to expand to Montreal and Vancouver" 

what do you mean by that???


----------



## Penhorn

Looks great, like a big success!



ChrisDVD said:


> "Should make it a no brainer to expand to Montreal and Vancouver"
> 
> what do you mean by that???


The fact that ticket sales have been well for Toronto should make it a "no-brainer" (that is, even someone without a brain should figure it out) that it would be a good idea to expand to Montreal and Vancouver.


----------



## mr.x

*Montreal Olympic Stadium Disaster Timeline*










Problems plagued the stadium from the time it opened for the Olympic Games, when it was only half built.

Seating 58,500 at the time, the stadium was not fully completed in time for the games due to strikes by construction workers, leaving it without a tower or roof for the opening and several years following. Both the tower and the roof, made of over 60,000 square feet (18,000 square metres) of kevlar, were not completed for over a decade, and it was not until 1988 that it was possible to retract the roof. The 65-ton roof then proved difficult to retract, and was occasionally torn in heavy winds.

Despite initial projections in 1970 that the stadium would cost only C$120 million dollars to construct, strikes and construction delays served to escalate these costs. By the time the stadium opened (in an unfinished form) the total costs had risen to C$250 million.

The Quebec government introduced a special tobacco tax in May 1976 to help recoup its investment. By 2006 the amount contributed to the Olympic Installations Board accounted for 8% of the tax revenue earned from cigarette sales. The 1976 special tobacco tax act stipulated that once the stadium was paid off, ownership of the facility would be returned back to the City of Montreal.

In December 2006 the stadium's costs were finally payed in full. The total expenditure (including repairs, renovations, construction, interest, and inflation) amounted to C$1.47 billion. Despite initial plans to complete payment in October 2006, an indoor smoking ban introduced in May 2006 curtailed the revenue gathered by the tobacco tax.

Perceived by many to be a white elephant, the stadium has also humorously been dubbed The Big Owe, Uh-O or The Big Mistake. In a speech announcing that Montreal would host the Olympic Games, then-mayor of Montreal, Jean Drapeau, is remembered for saying, "The Olympics can no more have a deficit than a man can have a baby." This now-famous quote is often parodied by residents.




*Olympic Stadium Disaster Timeline*

April 15, 1977: The Expos play their first home game at Olympic Stadium, losing 7-2 to the Phillies. A crowd of 57,592 witnesses the event.

1977-1986: The roof is in storage, first in France and then in Montreal, at a total cost of several million dollars.

1986: Engineers determine that the tower, designed to lean at 45 degrees, won't be structurally sound if completed in concrete, as originally designed. Steel is used instead.

1986: *Explosions and fire in the tower* interrupt an Expos game, causing $1 million in damage. Nobody is injured.

1986: *A chunk of steel falls from the tower and lands near the Expos bullpen while a game is in progress.*

1986: As the tower is being welded, *sparks fly from a torch onto the roof* of the swimming pool next door, causing a fire and $100,000 worth of damage.

1987: The tower and roof are completed. The roof is made of 50 tons of Kevlar, a fabric from which bulletproof vests are made. When the roof is raised for the first time, *it tears*. As a result, it stays closed for several years.

April 20, 1987: The Expos play their first game under the roof.

June 8, 1987: *Rain cascades through the roof* during an Expos game, soaking fans.

April 4, 1988: The Mets hit six homers on Opening Day in Montreal and attribute their slugging to a strong wind blowing out. It's the first game in Olympic Stadium since the installation of a new circulation system. *"With that air circulating, it's like a plane taking off to left-center," *Mets first baseman Keith Hernandez said. "it's like a jet stream."


1989: The roof finally becomes retractable. The umbrella-like contraption which hoists the roof up and down to the tower uses 26 cables. It takes 25 minutes to open or close, but it can't be moved when winds exceed 25 mph.

June 26, 1989: The Expos open a series against the Mets as Montreal experiences a beautiful, warm summer weekend. But the roof remains closed. Why? Because all the roof operators were off on a holiday. Temperatures on the field reach 95 degrees.

August, 1989: The roof, which had been retracted the day before so the Expos could play under clear skies, *can't retract in time to keep out a surprise rainstorm*. The field is covered by a tarp for the first time in three years.

1991: A tornado *rips four huge holes in the stadium roof.*

July, 1991: An Expos-Dodgers game is rained out, the first rainout in Montreal in five years. *The roof is unable to keep out a rainstorm*. Said Dodgers pitcher Bob Ojeda, "This roof, even when the thing worked, it didn't work."

1991: *Sixteen support beams snap, sending a 55-ton concrete beam crashing onto a walkway,* forcing the Expos to play their last 13 home games on the road.

1994: *A concrete wall collapses near truck displays at an auto show.*

1986-98: According to one estimate, the roof costs $700,000 to maintain and repair.

1998: *Ice falls through the roof, forcing the cancellation of two Rolling Stones concerts.*

1998: Finally, the City of Montreal gives up on the Kevlar roof and removes it, replacing it with a fixed roof later that year. The Expos play a full season exposed to the elements during the interim. Rumor has it that the old roof was sold for $1 to a company that turned it into curtains.

1999: *One of the 63 fiberglass roof panels collapses during a snowstorm and crashes to the floor where hundreds of people are working* to set up for an auto show. Hundreds of tons of snow and ice tumble down, but, miraculously, only a few people suffered minor injuries. As a result, a Muslim prayer service expected to be attended by 10,000 is cancelled. "Too bad," said one journalist. "This building can use all the prayers it can get."


1999: *After the snow collapse*, the dome is closed during the winter, for safety reasons.


2000: The company that bought the Kevlar roof starts selling it back to the citizens of Montreal in tiny pieces for $4.75 a pop.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2003/0422/1542317.html



The day after the Opening Ceremony of the 1976 Olympic Games:


----------



## hkskyline

So the cost disaster associated with the Montreal Games is mostly due to the stadium, or were the Games themselves unprofitable to start especially being the one right after Munich?


----------



## Jim Jones WINS!!!!!!

The games were actually profitable for an operational budget but excluded from the operations costs was Security and the Host Network Broadcasting costs which the federal government paid for. The quebec government and the city of montreal paid the the costs for the games for infrastructure and genereal operations. 

In absence of federal funding, because of Pierre Trudeau's stance on the games , the organizing committee was allowed to sell stamps, coins and host a national lottery for the first time in Canadain history. The latter efforts resulted in over 400 million in revenues but that was still just a small amount to deal with the orgy of greed surrounding the games. 

The French architect Roger Thiebert's fees amounted to a base of 10 million and then a percent if the cost rose of his creations . With a city manager and thiebert on site conducting operations the cost were to rise and the project was doomed with a three year construction schedule that provided a shortage of materials in the region for the games construction . Thiebert should have never been allowed on site and a project manager should have been appointed. The stadium was too complex to function and absolutely not needed except for a megalomanic's vision of montreal in the person of Jean Drapeau

The worst case for constructing sport festival infrastructure is now known as the montreal model. Constructing within the 4 years of run up to the games is bound for a repeat of montreal. 

This has been repeated a few times since . 
The best plan is the so called Seoul Model which of course belongs to Seoul South Korea for their hosting of the 1988 games . Seoul Learned from the 1976 experience and started construction in 1977 and at their pace to first host the Asian Games followed by the Summer Olympics. The plan worked very well and is the pattern that many smart nations have chosen . 

Kuala Lumpar, Rio de Janeiro, Abuja Nigeria, Doha Qatar and others are on Seoul Plans . Whether they will host is a big question but they at least will not destroy the local economy and drive large businesses out of the region in the process doing it . unlike Montreal in 1976


----------



## Irish Blood English Heart

Jesus I knew it was bad but not that bad, I have a horrible suspicion my country will **** up the 2012 Olympics just as badly.


----------



## Jim Jones WINS!!!!!!

Irish Blood English Heart said:


> Jesus I knew it was bad but not that bad, I have a horrible suspicion my country will **** up the 2012 Olympics just as badly.


The problem for London 2012 is that to host an olympics in most urban centres in Europe you are now looking at huge costs for Brownfield site clean ups. 
London is also down a similiar path with trying to make grand architectural statements that really do nothing for athletes performances . The grand architectural statements are one thing but considering the history of public works like the millenimum dome and the london EYE you are really looking at similiar but actually worse circumstances surrounding London 2012 becasuie of the costing of hosting substainable games in terms of Green. 

Montreal would have been twice as bad if todays standards were applied. London's main stadium is half temporary where are montreals was perminant. 

I predict that the Big Owe will be the first olympic stadium torn down in the history of the games simply because it serves not propose and has no possible tenant to use it in the future.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

The referee's a wanker!


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Penhorn said:


> Looks great, like a big success!
> The fact that ticket sales have been well for Toronto should make it a "no-brainer" (that is, even someone without a brain should figure it out) that it would be a good idea to expand to Montreal and Vancouver.


Especially since Montreal and Vancouver have been drawing great crowds for soccer long before TFC was on the scene. :cheers:


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Go f*ck a goat!


----------



## th0m

Whoa. Nice venue. Atmosphere looks really good as well, as far as you can tell from the images.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Canadian Chocho said:


> Go f*ck a goat!


Wow, great response. Thank you for destroying your own credibility. 

Are there any moderators in here or is it a free for all?


----------



## Mr. Fusion

I clicked on this thread thinking the stadium had collapsed or something but then realized people avoid this facility like the plague. :runaway:

The exterior design is still sleek and modern to me. I have heard of arenas and outdoor stadiums being renovated by gutting and completely rebuilding the interior:

- Key Arena, Seattle
- The Oracle, Oakland
- Soldier Field, Chicago

It would be neat to see the same done with Olympic Stadium. The problem with bland two-deck multipurpose stands is they do not fit any purpose very well. If the city found a tenant who wanted a 50,000 or 60,000 seat facility, they could rebuild the stands to fit that sport.

Unfortunately I think the stadiums reputation as a money pit would bar any such needed renovations.

:hug:


----------



## Canadian Chocho

It was the best possible response.

Oh and your statement is not true, Toronto was there during the NASL days and the USL days. In fact, U-Sector (a TFC supporter group) were formed in 2000, while the Ultras de Montreal (an Impact supporter group) were formed in 2002.

So I stand by my statement...

Go fvck a goat...


----------



## isaidso

40,000 seems the right size. People proposing NFL specifications are misguided. First of all, you're in the wrong country. The NFL is a foreign league with little incentive to expand to a foreign country like Canada.

Secondly, even if the NFL expanded internationally, Winnipeg would not be a consideration. They would also have to compete with the Bombers.

Lastly, Winnipeg would not fill a 60,000 seat stadium. This is the minimum seating requirement in the US league. Winnipeg could attain average attendance of 40,000 or close to it. Full stadiums create great atmosphere. Half full stadiums take away from the experience.


----------



## rantanamo

The NFL is looking to expand into Canada or Mexico and even for the Super Bowl in other countries.


----------



## Calvin W

rantanamo said:


> The NFL is looking to expand into Canada or Mexico and even for the Super Bowl in other countries.


^^ :lol: If you knew anything about Canada you would know that the ONLY interest for nfl is in Toronto, ( or at least enough to support a team wise).


----------



## rantanamo

Is that supposed to be some hate the NFL sentiment?


----------



## leaf345

No, it just means that there is no way in hell Winnipeg will ever get an NFL team.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Canadian Chocho said:


> It was the best possible response.
> 
> Oh and your statement is not true, Toronto was there during the NASL days and the USL days. In fact, U-Sector (a TFC supporter group) were formed in 2000, while the Ultras de Montreal (an Impact supporter group) were formed in 2002.
> 
> So I stand by my statement...
> 
> Go fvck a goat...


First, thanks for the lesson, but I know exactly who U-Sector and the Ultras are.

Second, you mention U-Sector as if they stuck by the Lynx through thick and thin, to the bitter end... cause that's what any self-respecting supporter's group would do. Amazing how quick they switched allegiance when TFC arrived. The Ultras, have been there from the beginning of the franchise (yes they officially formed in 2002 as a group, but most members have been following the team from the start in 1993) and they stuck with the team even through rough patches. 

The motto of the Ultras is "Toujours fideles".... "Always loyal". U-sector still go to the Lynx games? :cheers: 

Your superiority complex is pathetic.


----------



## mr.x

we have our precious CFL up here. we wouldn't want an NFL expansion to kill the league, and especially the CFL Toronto Argonauts as Toronto is really the only city under consideration.


----------



## isaidso

Toronto would be the only city in Canada that might be considered for an NFL franchise, and even Toronto doesn't have a stadium that meets NFL requirements. Winnipeg? No offence, but I'd be surprised if the NFL knew where Winnipeg is. 

We have pro-football in this country already. So many people pander to the NFL in the hopes of the entire nation getting 1 team at the possible cost of our entire pro-football league. I'd rather have 8 Canadian cities with a football team, than 1 in Toronto. The 'grass is always greener' mentality is pointless and not very constructive. 

Better to support what we have and make it better. Besides, do we want pro-football to go the way of the NHL where Canada is an after thought?


----------



## Calvin W

rantanamo said:


> Is that supposed to be some hate the NFL sentiment?


Don't hate what I don't watch.:lol:


----------



## nyrmetros

The Lynx are what, PDL now ?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

MegasAlexandros said:


> Your superiority complex is pathetic.


Is there something stuck up your ass?


----------



## MegasAlexandros

nyrmetros said:


> The Lynx are what, PDL now ?


That's right.



Canadian Chocho said:


> Is there something stuck up your ass?


Is that really the best response you can come up with me?

:applause: 

The defence rests...


----------



## Riise

Oh my, a "club" versus "franchise" debate! I'd love to join in but I promised earlier I wouldn't... What I came here for was to see if there were any pics from the TFC/Benfica match last night, anyone go and snap a few?


----------



## Taller Better

Even the sceptics have to admit that so far this project has been an unqualified success. Kudos to those having the foresight to get off their asses and make this happen. Hopefully there are other Canadian cities that will do the same. In the meantime if you are a soccer fan just be happy for what is happening here with Toronto FC.


----------



## Neda Say

keep NFL out of Canada. Don't even mention anything else than exhibition games in here. We have the CFL and I just want it to get better and bigger.

I like NFL but I just love my CFL even if we only have 8 teams


----------



## Bigmac1212

*Video of Air Canada Centre transforming from hockey to basketball*

Ever wonder how those NHL/NBA arena transform from one sport to another? Here's a video from Toronto on how the Air Canada Centre does it.

Air Canada Centre's NHL to NBA conversion


----------



## ÜberMaromas

Very cool...


----------



## Canadian Chocho

MegasAlexandros said:


> That's right.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that really the best response you can come up with me?
> 
> :applause:
> 
> The defence rests...


No I'm sincerely asking you. Is there something up your ass, because you seem to have a hate on Toronto for no reason.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Riise said:


> Oh my, a "club" versus "franchise" debate! I'd love to join in but I promised earlier I wouldn't... What I came here for was to see if there were any pics from the TFC/Benfica match last night, anyone go and snap a few?


Martin Grrove from flickr:


----------



## Riise

Canadian Chocho said:


> Martin Grrove from flickr:


Cheers mate! In the first photo It looks like the TFC defender got burned pretty bad. These pics really show how the dirt/sand like mixture underneath the fieldturf kicks up. I wonder how soft that stuff is, it looks as though Reda is wearing FG boots rather than 6-studded SG ones. Hopefully my team will qualify for the promotion playoffs this season, which are being played on the new fieldturf pitch at McMahon, and I'll get to find out first hand!


----------



## nyrmetros

was the friendly sold out?


----------



## johnz88

i'm pretty sure that stuff is just rubber pieces in the turf


----------



## [email protected]

Wouldn't a stadium with a closed roof make more sense given Winnipeg's geographical location and the extremely low temperatures 2/3 of the the year?


----------



## eMKay

There is no "hate" from the NFL toward Winnipeg, it's just way too small for an NFL team. It only has 700,000 people in the entire metro area, the smallest metro areas in the NFL are nearly twice the size, with the exception of Green Bay, which really draws fans from the entire state of Wisconsin. Buffalo is the next smallest with nearly 1,200,000 (and a LOT of Canadian fans added to that)


----------



## eMKay

[email protected] said:


> Wouldn't a stadium with a closed roof make more sense given Winnipeg's geographical location and the extremely low temperatures 2/3 of the the year?


I believe this was talked about already, answer was no.


----------



## Calvin W

About as sensible as Buffalo or Green Bay having roofs. Great to have but are they worth the price?


----------



## eMKay

Calvin W said:


> About as sensible as Buffalo or Green Bay having roofs. Great to have but are they worth the price?


Only wussies play football indoors


----------



## Calvin W

eMKay said:


> Only wussies play football indoors


Hence all the domed stadiums in the NFL:lol:


----------



## Canadian Chocho




----------



## nyrmetros

How many TFC fans were in C-bus?


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Don't know, seems like quite a few made the trip.


----------



## gERoNimO88

I like BMO Field, it's so patriotic and proudly Canadian.


----------



## nyrmetros

gERoNimO88 said:


> I like BMO Field, it's so patriotic and proudly Canadian.


It's the 20, 000 Canadian fans each game that makes BMO special.


----------



## kinggeorge

the atmosphere is ridiculous, i was at the game last night, it was sick, ive been working so it has only been my first game but i have tickets to the next few so hopefully the crowd stays, it seems like there is alot of loyal support there


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Yupp!! Too bad we lost though!


----------



## Breakwood

Dr.Mesofius said:


> Canada, being a very rich country, should build at least one great Football stadium.


Why? Soccer is the 4th or 5th sport in Canada, so there is no need for a large stadium. The new stadium in Toronto is a perfect size for the demand.


----------



## Aztec Eagle

*Mexico*

Well Mexico started with the right foot,today winning 3-0 Mexico vs Gambia!!
the fist Gol of the game was made by Giovani Dos Santos (58) with a expectacular gol,the second gol was made by Héctor Alfredo Moreno Herrera wich was and the 3rd gol goes to Javier Hernandez Balcazar wich was almost at the end of the game to close the game with a wonderfull 3-0!

Thank you Canucks for a great wellcome in Toronto!!

We will be waiting for the next game against a Portugal.

This cup will stay in North America!! Resistance is futile!!


----------



## VelesHomais

Breakwood said:


> Why? Soccer is the 4th or 5th sport in Canada, so there is no need for a large stadium. The new stadium in Toronto is a perfect size for the demand.


Then work on it becoming #1 sport. Chop, chop!


----------



## Plumber73

We're fine in the amatuer department, just not the professional...


----------



## Skyman

Gonna be very cute place


----------



## skaP187

Nate said:


> There is a Canadian football league (CFL), and a lot of the stadiums in the league weren't used for it. Calgary has one that seats over 30,000, Regina has one that seats 28,800, Winnipeg has one that seats over 30,000 I think, Hamilton has one as well, and BC Place is also used in the league (all those have artificial turf though). Furthermore, the CFL is in season now, so working around the schedule might have proved to be difficult.
> 
> As for baseball... it's not that big in Canada... only one professional team, in Toronto. Besides, baseball stadiums wouldn't suit Futbol well... the shape of the stadium is completely wrong for it.
> 
> About Edmonton having better, Commonwealth is a good stadium, it's big and it still has Natural grass for the turf. The reason the smaller stadia were used, is probably for the grass playing surface. Also, Quebec City doesn't really have a big stadium. The big one in that province is in Montreal, Olympic Stadium, and that stadium is being used for the tournament (I also think this stadium looks really good).
> 
> BMO Stadium in Toronto was built specifically for FC Toronto, so it's a futbol venue, and really, the only one built in Canada spefically for that purpose. The Whitecaps of Vancouver will probably be getting a stadium in a few years time though.
> 
> The other stadia used are so-so, not that great, but not completely awful. After all, this is just the U20s, you don't need the calibre of stadia that would be needed for the World Cup or the Euro Championships.


And again, thanks for the info!


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Yes!! Aurtia and Congo tied!!! Canada still has a chance!


----------



## Alle

Breakwood said:


> Why? Soccer is the 4th or 5th sport in Canada, so there is no need for a large stadium. The new stadium in Toronto is a perfect size for the demand.


I agree, its not fun to watch football on an almost empty stadium, better with a well-filled 20 000 stadium


----------



## Riise

Plumber73 said:


> We're fine in the amatuer department...


I wouldn't say that...


----------



## masterpaul

Poland disapointed me.... thats all


----------



## Plumber73

Riise said:


> I wouldn't say that...


I would.


----------



## zaDic

Chile 3
Canada 0

Go Go Chile!!

Now for the Congo...


----------



## Rizzato

watch out for these Yanks in the next few years..
Szetela
Adu
Altidore

hopefully they can really add something to our woefully underachieving national team


----------



## Alle

Rizzato said:


> watch out for these Yanks in the next few years..
> Szetela
> Adu
> Altidore
> 
> hopefully they can really add something to our woefully underachieving national team


The US football/soccer team has not been underachieving, at times it has been overachieving. At least relatively to the popularity of the sport in the US. US has qualified and done well in the world cup recently.

How is it going for Freddy Adu? There was some publicity about him here in Europe some years ago, but since then havnt heard much more than that he is playing in the MLS apparently. Is he in the national team?



WOW, i just discovered you got a leaguesystem for soccer in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Soccer_Pyramid

Are there no promotion/degradation there, if so how is it working/whats the point with the system? It looks good. It should give smaller local teams the oppurtunity to grow and advance in the leaguesystem.


----------



## You are to blame

Breakwood said:


> Why? Soccer is the 4th or 5th sport in Canada, so there is no need for a large stadium. The new stadium in Toronto is a perfect size for the demand.


actually BMO is too small. Every soccer event in it are always sold out and TFC has a season ticket waiting list at about 4,000 and growing. For the demand for TFC the stadium should be expanded by 10,000 to 30,000. In a couple of years I am confident that it will be expanded, MLSE have already been discussing it.


----------



## Plumber73

That would be great if BMO was larger and still full each game. I'd love to see that happen, but I wouldn't expand just on the response this first year though. It's a little early in my opinion. I'd probably give it a few years and see if interest is as strong as in the first year. Remember, there is the excitement of a new stadium, new team, all that Beckham coverage when tickets were on sale etc. Having said that, if it doesn't cost too much to put in extra seating, then why not?


----------



## Riise

Plumber73 said:


> I would.


You'd say we're fine with a youth and amateur system that has how more kids in it than hockey yet it's only produced one decent, or at least notable, footballer in the last 20 years?


----------



## Plumber73

Well, what I'm saying is you can't expect to churn out tons of high quality players when you don't have a Professional system, which the youth players can shoot for. At the moment, Europe is the best ticket. The amateur level is in good shape in that we've got the interest and participation. Unfortunately, there's a lot of youngsters who decide to move on to other things. Think of how many less hockey stars we'd have if the NHL didn't exist. 

That "notable" player you are referring to. Is that Owen Hargreaves? You know he plays for England right?  Perfect example. The only reason he got to where he is today is that Bayern brought him over to Europe when he was 15 or 16 and helped with his development. If that didn't happen, who knows where he'd be.


----------



## Kiryl

Rizzato said:


> watch out for these Yanks in the next few years..
> Szetela
> Adu
> Altidore
> 
> hopefully they can really add something to our woefully underachieving national team


Adu will be great star.IMO.

Poland disapointed me alsohno:


----------



## Riise

Plumber73 said:


> Well, what I'm saying is you can't expect to churn out tons of high quality players when you don't have a Professional system, which the youth players can shoot for...


A professional system doesn't develop players, it's a place where players who have developed their skills go to play. Canadian lads don't need something to shoot for, they need a system that can properly develop them into quality players. At the current moment in time we don't even properly teach children the basics but instead try to teach them how to win games, and we can even do that properly, i.e. the long ball/dump & chase game. Owen didn't go to Germany so he could play top flight football, he won't over there to further his game in a way he couldn't here, and still wouldn't be able to today.

Not only is Europe the only place where quality and talented Canadian kids go to polish of their game, due to the clubs top class facilities and coach staff, it's also the only place where they can advance their skills from the basics. This is due to our almost non-existent amateur system. When I talk to people from across the pond it's usually the first thing they mention when we talk about football over here, the lack of amateur leagues. You mentioned hockey, to make it comparable to football in Canada don't take out the NHL, take out the CHL and the structure, organization, and top class coaching at the midget level. Now look at what you have, a shit load of kids that are interested in the game, a professional system for those kids to play in, and a huge gap in between the two. We have to bridge the gap!


----------



## eMKay

Dr.Mesofius said:


> Canada, being a very rich country, should build at least one great Football stadium.


They did, it's called BMO Field.


----------



## johnz88

"Canada, being a very rich country, should build at least one *great* Football stadium."

No offence to BMO field but it is not a great football stadium. Its a poorly designed cheap way out of building a real stadium. But i no it is Canada and soccer isn't big enough here to build something with a capacity of 50000+.


----------



## Rizzato

AKing said:


> How is it going for Freddy Adu? There was some publicity about him here in Europe some years ago, but since then havnt heard much more than that he is playing in the MLS apparently. Is he in the national team?
> 
> Are there no promotion/degradation there, if so how is it working/whats the point with the system? It looks good. It should give smaller local teams the oppurtunity to grow and advance in the leaguesystem.


in my opinion Adu has been here for too long..MLS is a very physical league with less emphasis on skill than in europe and s.america.
He must move to a european champions league team...to see him fully blossom. He needs to be put up against strong teams like ac milan and barcelona, to prove himself (all in good time though..no rush) hopefully he will be at arsenal or chelsea or lyon, maybe my team INTER

for the love of god, what is Freddy Adu doing at real salt lake.?I rly cant understand it.

our league system is not integrated, therefore the MLS teams can consistently suck and not be penalized for it..
and its funny! the san jose earthquakes were a very good team and what happens? their team moves and rebrands itself...way to thank the fans!hno:


----------



## Plumber73

Riise said:


> A professional system doesn't develop players, it's a place where players who have developed their skills go to play. Canadian lads don't need something to shoot for, they need a system that can properly develop them into quality players. At the current moment in time we don't even properly teach children the basics but instead try to teach them how to win games, and we can even do that properly, i.e. the long ball/dump & chase game. Owen didn't go to Germany so he could play top flight football, he won't over there to further his game in a way he couldn't here, and still wouldn't be able to today.
> 
> Not only is Europe the only place where quality and talented Canadian kids go to polish of their game, due to the clubs top class facilities and coach staff, it's also the only place where they can advance their skills from the basics. This is due to our almost non-existent amateur system. When I talk to people from across the pond it's usually the first thing they mention when we talk about football over here, the lack of amateur leagues. You mentioned hockey, to make it comparable to football in Canada don't take out the NHL, take out the CHL and the structure, organization, and top class coaching at the midget level. Now look at what you have, a shit load of kids that are interested in the game, a professional system for those kids to play in, and a huge gap in between the two. We have to bridge the gap!


You're losing me. What do you mean by amateur? Doesn't that encompass everything other than Pro?


----------



## Alle

Riise said:


> A professional system doesn't develop players, it's a place where players who have developed their skills go to play. Canadian lads don't need something to shoot for, they need a system that can properly develop them into quality players. At the current moment in time we don't even properly teach children the basics but instead try to teach them how to win games, and we can even do that properly, i.e. the long ball/dump & chase game. Owen didn't go to Germany so he could play top flight football, he won't over there to further his game in a way he couldn't here, and still wouldn't be able to today.
> 
> Not only is Europe the only place where quality and talented Canadian kids go to polish of their game, due to the clubs top class facilities and coach staff, it's also the only place where they can advance their skills from the basics. This is due to our almost non-existent amateur system. When I talk to people from across the pond it's usually the first thing they mention when we talk about football over here, the lack of amateur leagues. You mentioned hockey, to make it comparable to football in Canada don't take out the NHL, take out the CHL and the structure, organization, and top class coaching at the midget level. Now look at what you have, a shit load of kids that are interested in the game, a professional system for those kids to play in, and a huge gap in between the two. We have to bridge the gap!


I disagree, the best young players (16years+) need a professional league to go to early. Fotballplayers developement is to big part depending on the coaches they have. And the best coaches are most often those with a lot of experience as players, and they are found as managers/coaches in professional leagues. Young players that show good intentions need to be able to take this step as easy as possible and early, so that they dont stop in their developement. If you have good professional clubs and a good leaguesystem thats easier.

When young players choose club they look at what management the club has and how the possibilites for the player to learn and develope further looks.

If you look at succesful players most of them have came early to a bigger, professional club where they have had the chance to play and above all train with the best players and coaches. I dont think comparing Hockey to Football is fair. Im a fan of both sports myself. Look at the NHL, altough the draft is a big part of the clubs squad build up, the drafted players dont get to play in the NHL until they are already developed players, and what do the clubs they come from get for their players being drafted, what reasons do they have to invest long-term in their youths? In football/soccer its different, even the largest clubs want to have young potential stars at an early stage in their team even if it means they dont play regularly in the first team for several seasons. 

Of course you need a good system for the youths not yet ready for the pro level, but the best youthacademys are often those of the professional clubs in football. Youthacademys are an important part of professional football clubs in Europe. Does NHL clubs have youthteams?

Also the Canadian football federation could work intentionally to better teach out the basics of football/soccer in the nation, and raise the quality of coaching. And also have training for coaches around the country. Becouse of course you need to start at the basics.




*Plumber 73:*

Well you can also categorize clubs as semi-pro. In Europe not always is only the top division considered, but also the second, at least some of the clubs, and maybe even further down in the system, and then comes semi-professional teams... then amateurclubs.




*Rizzato:*

About clubs moving i think this commercialism is able to be that strong becouse there is no promotion/degradation system where less emphasis is on the richness and profit of the clubs but the clubs are more focused on winning titles and prestige. Also it seems there is a different club-fan relation in Europe, imagine if Inter moved, there would be riots.
Anyhow nothing for me to say about it thats the way it is and works as others say. Maybe that system can work for football too. We'l see about Freddy, i think the earlier he gets somewhere where he can learn more the better. It would more more than enough to play in a top national league in Europe for him. Champions league is a lot for an 18 years old and to tell the truth his statistics in the MLS arent overly impressive, but then i havnt seen him play myself so i shouldn judge only on the number of goals scored... he is afterall only 18. More important for him than to play against top clubs is to come to a club with good coaches and who are good at developing young players. 18 year old players rarely get to play in the CL anyway . Maybe they get to jump in with 10 minutes left with a 3-0 lead. But otherwise its about as usual as 18 year old players in the NHL i reckon. Maybe not just as unusual after all footballplayers arent as dependant on their physics.

And BTW, my favorite club GAIS played agaisnt Real Salt Lake this year: http://www.gais.se/fotboll/gais.nsf/0/7B15E6BD9D45C21FC12572820023D720?OpenDocument


----------



## Riise

Plumber73 said:


> You're losing me. What do you mean by amateur? Doesn't that encompass everything other than Pro?


I was kind of bundling the youth system and amateur leagues together. I think the CSA needs to focus on the both of them before they focus on developing the professional game.

*This is what I'd like to see Canada work on asap:*

Youth Development System --> Amateur Leagues

*The youth system would provide skilled players to the amateur leagues which would provide a place for the players that can't make it in Europe to stay and play, as well as continue their skill development.


*This is what I'd like to see happen in Canada in 10-15 years:*

Youth Development System --> Amateur Leagues --> Semi-Pro Leagues

*Once again, the youth system would feed the two leagues with players, however, by this time football will be able to capture a fair share of the entertainment market and would be financially sustainable in a professional sense. Some of the amateur teams would become semi-pro and you would see more than one team in a city.


*Finally, Canada in 25-30 years:*

Youth Development System --> Amateur Leagues --> Pro & Semi-Pro Leagues

*Just like before but now Canada would be able to support an outright professional leagues. Due to the maturation of the leagues you'd see teams that were once small amateur clubs now becoming professional clubs; it would be similar to the leagues and clubs in Europe. Also, you'd see more than one club per city as well as the potential for a promotion and relegation system.



AKing said:


> I disagree, the best young players (16years+) need a professional league to go to early...


Without a doubt! However, Canada isn't producing enough "best players" and this is due to the poor youth development system and the lack of an amateur leagues. After the players are poorly developed they have no where to play. If we had a professional league system only the best players would have a place to play, what about the rest of the potential talent? Like you said yourself:



AKing said:


> Also the Canadian football federation could work intentionally to better teach out the basics of football/soccer in the nation, and raise the quality of coaching. And also have training for coaches around the country. *Becouse of course you need to start at the basics.*


There are enough professional leagues out there for our quality players to go and polish off their game; the CSA needs to, and must, focus on developing more quality players. A professional league is useless without any professional quality players.


----------



## Alle

> If we had a professional league system only the best players would have a place to play, what about the rest of the potential talent? Like you said yourself


If you have a leaguesystem most players can find a suitable level to play and develope at, only a few lucky get to start their professional career in a top division, and even amongst them many are loaned out to get playtime in a lower division. Sort of like the farm teams for the NHL clubs, a mayor difference being that football/soccer clubs almost always have a reserveteam playing in a reserveleague as well as a youthteam often called "talent team" playing in a juniorleague. But the reserve and youthteam players have a direct chance to get to play in the first team if they perform good.


----------



## Riise

AKing said:


> If you have a leaguesystem most players can find a suitable level to play and develope at...


For sure, I think Canada needs to build that system from the ground up, not top down. That ensures stability through a solid base as well as focus on the development side of the game, not the business. I know most pro-clubs have youth and reserve teams but I also aware that player development is not the focus of teams in the MLS; they are fighting tooth and nail to simply ensure their survival. I'd really love to see the creation of more amateur clubs and leagues in Canada which in time would mature into semi-pro and professional clubs and leagues. Yes it would take time, but it would be worth it. How much time has North America spent trying to building the game from the top down? Over 40 years with nothing much to show...


----------



## japanese001




----------



## Plumber73

Congrats Japan!


----------



## japanese001

Plumber73 said:


> Congrats Japan!


Thank you


----------



## GNU

Rizzato said:


> in my opinion Adu has been here for too long..MLS is a very physical league with less emphasis on skill than in europe and s.america.
> He must move to a european champions league team...to see him fully blossom.


Adu had offers from europe ( amongst them ManU where he attended a trial at the end of last year/ Ferguson was quite fond of him, he was also linked with Real Madrid) but he decided to stay in the MLS as for now.
Hes still only 17 so thats just fine.
Many players who come to europe are too young and often dont make it.
I dont know whether he will be a great player in the future but hes definitely a very good player no doubt about it.


----------



## Alle

Havnt seen Japan play in the tournament but they won their group, and i believed they had a good team. Will be interesting against the Czech's.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Went to the Chile-Austria game! Man, chile has some talent!


----------



## Bahnsteig4

^^ You realize that the team in red was the Austrian side?
:sly:


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ Yepp, and I was happily cheering against Austria. Why do you ask?


----------



## Bahnsteig4

^^ Cause the only team to score was AUT. They were better, too, so I don't see why you are praising the Chileans.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

^^ It was a 0-0 draw and Austria's "goal" was offside, over the 3 games Chile has been the best in Group A. Oh, and all I've got to say to Erwin Hoffer is, who are ya?


----------



## Bahnsteig4

^^ It was not offside, it was a crappy referee's decision.


----------



## Plumber73

Strange - The CBC is calling BMO Field " The National Soccer Stadium". Anyone know if the name changed recently?


----------



## kinggeorge

^^^^ its national stadium for fifa, because saying bmo field would be a form of advertising and since bmo did not pay any sponsorship fees to fifa, they have taken all bmo stuff away from the field and covered all billboards surrounding the field and any other sponsors, fifa says that it would take away from its paying sponsors, using the bmo name, although there is a bmo sign on the field at national stadium, fifa is all about the money


----------



## cinosanap

Similiar to the World Cup in Germany, I think.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

davidkunz/VIE said:


> ^^ It was not offside, it was a crappy referee's decision.


It was offside. Just by a step but it was still offside.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Even if it was, progressive refs would have allowed the goal.


----------



## Plumber73

kinggeorge said:


> ^^^^ its national stadium for fifa, because saying bmo field would be a form of advertising and since bmo did not pay any sponsorship fees to fifa, they have taken all bmo stuff away from the field and covered all billboards surrounding the field and any other sponsors, fifa says that it would take away from its paying sponsors, using the bmo name, although there is a bmo sign on the field at national stadium, fifa is all about the money


That makes sense. :cheers:


----------



## michał_

Well, we're out now :/
But, pretty unhumbly, I will say that I feel we had the best supporters on site. Haven't watched too many games and the ones I've seen were only on TV. Still- I checked the attendances- highest avarage plus highest attendance of all (Brazil-Poland, 55 800- equal to USA-Korea). Actually I was pretty damn surprised by the interest our minorities of Canada and USA shown to this tournament and their chanting- pretty small choice of chants, but constant even when US was leading by 6:1.
As always I feel Korea and Japan have nice fans- but a bit too little.
And huuuuuge upset for me the attitude of Canadians and Americans, but I guess those aren't football-crazy nations after all


----------



## Plumber73

michał_;14241368 said:


> ...And huuuuuge upset for me the attitude of Canadians and Americans, but I guess those aren't football-crazy nations after all


The attitude??? What do you mean?


----------



## michał_

I mean American fans during Poland-USa game (haven't seen the record Korea-USA, so cannot tell). After all- the only country located closer to this event is Canada and still Americans weren't even "fairly interested".
And as for Canada- none of the game of Canada brought as many fans as any group game of Poland and it's not us who's the host country... I realize that Poland had a lot more interesting group, but Canada playing in Edmonton should have brought a lot more people into the stadium!
So by the attitude I mean that the interest in this tournament from these two nations was far smaller then I hoped for.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

michał_;14248636 said:


> I mean American fans during Poland-USa game (haven't seen the record Korea-USA, so cannot tell). After all- the only country located closer to this event is Canada and still Americans weren't even "fairly interested".
> And as for Canada- none of the game of Canada brought as many fans as any group game of Poland and it's not us who's the host country... I realize that Poland had a lot more interesting group, but Canada playing in Edmonton should have brought a lot more people into the stadium!
> So by the attitude I mean that the interest in this tournament from these two nations was far smaller then I hoped for.


There is a huge interest in the tournament. I do agree Edmonton is a bit crap compared to all the other cities. Look at it this way, Poland = Opening game vs. Brazil and wins it + Poland advances. Canada = Hosting the tournament yet they lose 3 in a row without even scoring a goal. Yes, canada is not a soccer-mad country but it surely is a soccer-loving country.


----------



## Plumber73

michał_;14248636 said:


> I mean American fans during Poland-USa game (haven't seen the record Korea-USA, so cannot tell). After all- the only country located closer to this event is Canada and still Americans weren't even "fairly interested".
> And as for Canada- none of the game of Canada brought as many fans as any group game of Poland and it's not us who's the host country... I realize that Poland had a lot more interesting group, but Canada playing in Edmonton should have brought a lot more people into the stadium!
> So by the attitude I mean that the interest in this tournament from these two nations was far smaller then I hoped for.


I wasn't too impressed with the turnout at Edmonton I must say. I can't figure out why there were so many empty seats. But having said that, all the other cities have been filling their stadiums for each game. The attitude towards the game, and other teams is very positive. Many Canadians are made up of expats. So they're just as thrilled about their former country as they are about Canada when it comes to the game. I was just happy to see any games here, which I did. As for American interest... I haven't really been looking at that. The games they've played were in front of packed stadiums, so what more can you ask for?


----------



## michał_

Plumber73 said:


> As for American interest... I haven't really been looking at that. The games they've played were in front of packed stadiums, so what more can you ask for?


Far from it. I mean the game against Korea- sure. But seeing the game vs Poland was really a shock for me. I know we're not an interesting rival all in all, but still- out of all the 35k at the Olympic Stadium it was difficult to spot Americans and that's also what I've read in American football-devoted websites. And impossible to hear them apart from the moment when one of them started shouting next to our commentators


----------



## Benn

There is a definite disinterest here, most people have no idea there is a U-20 world cup. Its not on TV (unless you have "premium" sports channels), I check the scores online but its not really something that I care much about. There is more interest in the Copa America, there will be more interest in the Euro next year. We as a nation get pumped and have a good showing for the Olympics and alot of us for the World cup, but the U-20 just doesn't register for 99% of us for one reason or another. And as a rule we don't sing at sporting events, noise counts during football and basketball, lots of chants during college basketball, but singing is just not one of our traditions. If you want to see great American fans look at College basketball or football.


----------



## Plumber73

michał_;14259338 said:


> Far from it. I mean the game against Korea- sure. But seeing the game vs Poland was really a shock for me. I know we're not an interesting rival all in all, but still- out of all the 35k at the Olympic Stadium it was difficult to spot Americans and that's also what I've read in American football-devoted websites. And impossible to hear them apart from the moment when one of them started shouting next to our commentators


A lot of those Polish fans could actually be American. Know what I'm saying?


----------



## michał_

Benn said:


> If you want to see great American fans look at College basketball or football.


Actually I've seen quite a lot (only official club websites, youtube or flickr though) and must say the attendances are smashing, yet the idea of "noise only" supporting doesn't convince me 

Plumber- I'm a bit embarassed but sorry- no


----------



## Benn

Sams Army or what ever the national team supporters are calling themselves these days do sing some, but it just has never been part of the sporting culture. None of the big time sports lend themselves to it. Baseball is good for sitting in the sun and drinking a beer, and thats about it. During football games the crowds will be quiet for the hometeam offense, and as loud as possible for the visiting teams offense. Basketball is sort of similar in that respect, especially during freethrow shooting, lots of visual distractions and some chanting, definitely. But I don't think you can say that there has to be singing to be atmosphere, watch a college rivalry game if you can get the chance, have been to a few bundasliga games and they weren't even close to an Ohio State-Michigan Football game, or even Wisconsin or Texas-anybody game.


----------



## dios tanatos

michał_;14264406 said:


> Actually I've seen quite a lot (only official club websites, youtube or flickr though) and must say the attendances are smashing, yet the idea of "noise only" supporting doesn't convince me
> 
> Plumber- I'm a bit embarassed but sorry- no


How can you support a team at the stadium if not by making noise? Players don't have the time to stop play & scan the stands looking for signs & banners in their favor, you know...


----------



## Plumber73

michał_;14264406 said:


> Plumber- I'm a bit embarassed but sorry- no


That's ok.  I'm just saying you can't be so sure where people come from, just from "spotting" people in a crowd.


----------



## michał_

Benn- eee... can you compare anything here? I mean Michigan? Hello? In terms of stadium size and therefore the ability to make atmosphere. But actually I believe there has to be singing/chanting/"organized shouting" (sorry- lacking the English equivalent) to create atmosphere. Booo'ing is no atmosphere at all for me.
I'm not an expert for sure, but when you speak of Ohio-Michigan game in terms of atmosphere, then I hope you've been to equally explosive fixtures in Germany? Borussia-Schalke, Munich or even Berlin derby? (Germany doesn't actually have too many of this kind of "natural rivalries"). And just for the record- could you tell me the games you've been to there? Was any Eintracht-anybody game there for instance?
I'm quite curious what would you say about the atmosphere in Poland compared to USA, cause I see almost nothing in common to compare 

Before posting I tried to find something on youtube... found several movies and I've heard nothing but roar. I've read that scientists spotted seysmic activity when Tigers' Stadium cheers after touchdown. Still roaring doesn't work for me.

Dios Tanatos- I gave "making noise" as simple unorganised and in that matter- primitive form as opposite to organized supporting like in European/Latin American and some Asian stadiums. Flags and banners aren't the case here, although their value seems to be underestimated by you here 

Plumber73- Actually, when you see whole parts of the stadium dominated in your country's colors and you hear no-one from the opposite side- I guess you can 
I'm not saying they all came directly from Poland because I'm sure it's our "diaspora" (Polonia) from Motreal, Toronto and around the big lakes. And that's a massive group, I'd say over a million.
Let's face it- Poland is no Brazil to have supporters of different nationalities "just like that".
Plus- European ways of expressing support to one country still vary from what Americans do. (I mean exposition of flags with regional or social links, devotion to football scarves, etc.)

OK guys, I've made it enough of an off-topic discussion so if you want to continue it's your choice, but I just think we're on different waves


----------



## Benn

That is a good point about the Bundasliga, I have been to games at Leverkusen (medicore atmosphere, love the BayArena though) Stuttgart (good, but nothing too special, on a side note just a wonderful city) and Hamburg. HSV was alot of fun and the supporters got into it, unfortunately I was unable to get to Frankfurt or Munich (spent three days there, no games though) or the like. I flew in through Frankfurt but spent no time there. I'll bet Eintracht is great, maybe if I can get back to Europe in the next year or two I'll have a chance to check it our. But even the HSV game wasn't as crazy as the Wisconsin-Penn State game last year (they are not rivals and the game was a low scoring grind out). The Baylor game at Texas in 2004 Was amazing as well, once again not a rivalry, and it was a total blow out. In both cases the student sections were phenomenal throughout. That having been said there are like 117 D-1 football teams so some of them are going to be a great time, where as I am from Minnesota and the Gophers have pretty mediocre, the last time we one a Rose Bowl was 1961 so there hasn't been much to cheer about.
If you need singing suit your self, then I guess you will never really enjoy US crowds, but when your in the middle of a good college crowd there is no denying the atmosphere and intensity.
FYI Michigan-Ohio State is much better from the Horseshoe (Ohio stadium), which despite a slightly lower capacity holds in the sound much better (steep two teir as opposed to shallow single tier), and buckeyes fans seem to be louder and a little more passionate, nothing against the Wolverines, but they don't make as much noise.
Also I have no idea about the atmosphere at polish stadiums, I think Youtube as a pretty bad way to gauge events, I haven't yet made it that far east and no one broadcasts Polish games here. So the only thing I have to go on is the world cup games, where you guys seemed to make a good show of it despite the results if I remember.


----------



## michał_

Benn said:


> Also I have no idea about the atmosphere at polish stadiums, I think Youtube as a pretty bad way to gauge events, I haven't yet made it that far east and no one broadcasts Polish games here. So the only thing I have to go on is the world cup games, where you guys seemed to make a good show of it despite the results if I remember.


Can't disagree about youtube not really being a good and reliable source, but that's the problem here- no-one broadcasts Ohio-Michigan here as well  . On the other hand if you look at European clubs' video database on youtube you may find it actually very informative...


----------



## mr.x

Updates, credits to *bils*:



the first adjacent site i've noticed go to a development application


















site loading on the west side of the oval lands. part of the aspac development perhaps?









same site loading


----------



## isaidso

I'm very impressed. This is a very exciting technological advancement in the use of wood. Wood is often wrongly ridiculed as an inferior material in building construction, but many of its characteristics are superior than other more traditional materials. 

I remember my father being shocked that Canadian houses were built with wooden frames. He couldn't wrap his head around the benefits of Canadian wood frame construction versus the traditional British house built with bricks. Wood is superior in so many ways, but people can't get past the image of brick being solid.

Good for BC in demonstrating what is possible. Strong, durable, flexible, and beautiful.


----------



## mr.x

posted by officedweller:


Those wooden cross members are written up in a Vancouver Magazine article this month (below). Apparently they are made from small 2x4s of pine beetle lumber all nailed together. 



> *Golden Arches*
> 
> *One of the lasting legacies of the 2010 Games is likely to be the stunning roof that surmounts the Richmond Oval*
> 
> By Trevor Boddy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image credit: Martin Tessler
> 
> Fine engineering—like fine art or fine wine—is about elegance, balance, and efficiency. Consider the roof at the Richmond Oval: the most original, innovative, and pleasing structure designed for the upcoming Winter Games. Deep arches leap over the ice surface where latex-slicked speed-skaters will race round and round. Each arch is something of a V-shaped blade itself, its ice-side terminating in an acute steel angle. It’s as if some behemoth Hans Brinker is about to break through the ribbed ceiling.
> 
> Set into these vaulting blades are four-foot-deep sections of composite wooden panels. These arched panels were the largest that could be shipped on flat-bed trucks from the Deas Island factory of StructureCraft Inc. to the site on River Road. The steel blade arches went up first, beginning this summer; then arched panels were set on either side to complete the roof. Each panel’s V-rib is stuffed with acoustics-improving mineral wool; fire-suppression pipes and nozzles are also threaded through the ribs. Design engineer Paul Fast has struck an artful balance here, mixing the strength (but cost) of steel with the malleability and local sheen (plus bang for buck) of the B.C.-made beams.
> 
> Long before our standard markets for dimension lumber collapsed in the U.S. housing meltdown, Fast’s partner, engineer Gerry Epp, was designing value-added uses for B.C.’s forest harvests (as in the timber columns and plywood peeler core-space frames his firm devised for Bing Thom’s Surrey Central City). As Epp was figuring out the roof, the scale of mountain pine beetle kill was becoming apparent. With blue-stained pine piling up at B.C. sawmills (beetle discolouration doesn’t affect structural properties, but is thought to be a marketing liability, and the size of the dead pines means that only small-dimension lumber can be cut from them), *Fast + Epp found a way to span one of the largest clear-span roofs in the province almost entirely with gang-nailed two-by-fours*. Total cost: about $16 million.
> 
> Most of the world’s finest engineers built their reputations with steel or concrete structures. Fast + Epp may soon join their ranks by showing how a renewable resource can accomplish everything that high-tech structures can, and more.


----------



## bs_lover_boy

There is another Development Application posted on Hollybridge way and River Road(near the ****)!!! I never got a chance to read it carefully... Does anybody know what it says????


----------



## Durbsboi

Damn! Its coming out great! I saw the renders & wasnt so interested but those contruction pictures really have changed my view!


----------



## mr.x

*Venue Update: Nearing Completion*

VANOC NEWS RELEASE
November 22, 2007

Building the track at the Whistler Sliding Centre, SeptemberBy the end of 2007, construction at all outdoor venue sites will be finished – an unprecedented success. “Just pretty fantastic” noted John Furlong, Chief Executive Officer of the Vancouver Organizing Committee for the 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games (VANOC).”We set a target that construction at these venues would be done at the end of this year and they are.” 

The Whistler Sliding Centre, Whistler Nordic Competition Venue, Cypress Mountain venue, the alpine courses at Whistler Creekside and updates to the short track speed skating and figure skating at the Pacific Coliseum venue will all be completed by Christmas 2007. Construction crews have worked tirelessly to bring these sites to operational use and soon, these venues will be open to the public for recreational use. Not long after, the venues will then be put to work hosting international level competitions starting in February 2008 with the Alpine World Cup in Whistler. 











Even with these recent successes, the venue construction team is still not slowing down – there are indoor venues to be completed. “In the coming year, in 2008, you’ll see the completion of the number one hockey arena at the University of British Columbia which will be used for women’s hockey and sledge hockey,” said Furlong. “You’ll see the curling facility at Hillcrest finished in the third quarter. The speed skating facility at the Richmond Oval will also be substantially complete and the two Villages, obviously, are continuing and are exactly where they need to be to deliver on the objective of having them ready in time for the Games.” 

“So we’re very proud and, of course, the icing on the cake is they’ll be done and they’ll be completed on budget,” said Furlong. “We’re very, very proud of it.”












And the luge track at the Base II of Blackcomb at Whistler Village, which will also open in a few weeks.


----------



## Mo Rush

any issues about venues being completed too early? they prob won't stand empty until 2010 but will all venues be in use once they are completed? the IOC was worried venues in Beijing would be complete too early. suppose its different for a winter games.


----------



## mr.x

Mo Rush said:


> any issues about venues being completed too early? they prob won't stand empty until 2010 but will all venues be in use once they are completed? the IOC was worried venues in Beijing would be complete too early. suppose its different for a winter games.


Won't be a problem, they are open to athletes and the general public immediately when they open in a few weeks. A few national teams, including the Norweigians and Americans, have surveyed the venues in the past weeks and they all had extremely positive comments. 

But the main purpose of finishing so early was actually to give the Canadian team a home field advantage by training at the venues before others start to. And there was also the issue of rising costs in labour and materials....if VANOC had waited any longer to build their venue plan, it probably would've cost a lot more.

The Whistler Nordic Centre, Whistler Sliding Centre, and Cypress Mountain in Vancouver will be hosting international and national competitions this winter.



here's a rendering of the Live Site/Celebration Plaza at Georgia and Beatty next to BC Place Stadium. The provincial, federal, and municipal governments are spending $45 million on live sites during 2010.


----------



## mr.x

posted by delirium



























from www.flickr.com


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## isaidso

Thanks for the article on 'Fast + Epp'. Their ingenuity and innovation is going to pay off in spades. It's beautiful.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

*Canadian Arena's*

Canada kinda sucks when it come to stadiums but we are very good when it come to arena's!

Toronto

*Air Canada Centre*-~19,000



















*Ricoh Coliseum*-9,500



















There are more around the GTA but I'll let other forumers post them, or post them later.


----------



## marrio415

Toronto Marlies what leauge are they playing in


----------



## Canadian Chocho

marrio415 said:


> Toronto Marlies what leauge are they playing in


AHL. It's second tier to the NHL, and all AHL teams are affiliated with NHL teams.

Damn I made a mistake in the title.


----------



## nyrmetros

how old is the ricoh ??


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## eMKay

nyrmetros said:


> how old is the ricoh ??


86 years outside, almost 4 years inside.


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## Loranga

But that team that plays in Air Canada Centre seems not to be very good.


----------



## mr.x

General Motors Place, Vancouver
- seats: 18,500 (hockey), 20,000 (tennis/basketball/wrestling)
- built 1995
- home of the NHL Vancouver Canucks
- primary venue for 2010 Olympic Games ice hockey





















































Pacific Coliseum, Vancouver
- seats: 16,000
- home of the WHL Vancouver Giants
- primary venue for 2010 Olympic figure skating and short-track speed skating


----------



## eMKay

Loranga said:


> But that team that plays in Air Canada Centre seems not to be very good.


lol...


----------



## Canadian Chocho

Loranga said:


> But that team that plays in Air Canada Centre seems not to be very good.


No, the Raptors are actually pretty good.


----------



## Loranga

Canadian Chocho said:


> No, the Raptors are actually pretty good.


Hmmm....are the Raptors in the white jerseys in the inside pic of ACC? They must be hockeys' equivalent to Washington Generals.


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## nyrmetros

Anyone remember the 1994 Stanley Cup riot outside of Pacific Colliseum ??


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Well, since nobody else has bothered to post the BIGGEST and most ROCKIN' arena in Canada, I will do the honors...

The Bell Center/Centre Bell, home of the Montreal Canadiens (capacity of 21,273):


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## nyrmetros

can anyone see from upstairs?


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## vancouverite/to'er

Canadian Chocho said:


> No, the Raptors are actually pretty good.


:cheers: They just beat Atlanta 100-88


----------



## Canadian Chocho

GM Centre - Oshawa, Ontario (GTA)-5,500k



















Powerade Centre - Brampton, Ontario (GTA)-5,000k


----------



## go_leafs_go02

John Labatt Centre
London, Ontario.
9,090 for hockey, up to 11,000 for concerts.

Opened in 2002. Home of the 2005 Memorial Cup Champions London Knights.


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## MegasAlexandros

nyrmetros said:


> can anyone see from upstairs?


Yup, that's where I'm usually seated and you see great. The sightlines were well thought out in the design of the place. Not one bad seat in the house!


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## eMKay

*Torontonians, what's the status of Maple Leaf Gardens?*

Here in Buffalo The Aud is in the beginning stages of being torn down, I was just wondering what was happening to our neighbors classic old barn.


----------



## Canadian Chocho

I think it's becoming a supermarket.










A shame really.


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## kinggeorge

i actually walked past there last week because i was wondering myself, its dirty what has happened to it. it just sits there with the windows and everything covered on it, there were once loblaws stickers on the windows of the doors but they have faded, is hould really bring my camera and put some pics up


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## Tuscani01

Plans to turn the building into a supermarket have been put on hold since the company involved (Loblaws) is having financial problems at the moment. The exterior is pretty much being preserved but the inside is being gutted.


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## marrio415

unbelievable this place has made legends and this is how it's repaid what a disgrace.What happened to the lacross team that played there after the maple leafs moved to the air canada centre


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## eMKay

marrio415 said:


> unbelievable this place has made legends and this is how it's repaid what a disgrace.What happened to the lacross team that played there after the maple leafs moved to the air canada centre


The Toronto Rock play at the ACC now.


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## Bobby3

MLSE won't let anyone buy it for use as a sports/entertainment venue, so it's fate is basically sealed. Sad.


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## kinggeorge

i think they should keep the exterior and build a condo tower, because every open piece of land in toronto is turning into a high end condos, so why not build one there and keep the exterior as some kind of memory


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## canadave87

kinggeorge said:


> i think they should keep the exterior and build a condo tower, because every open piece of land in toronto is turning into a high end condos, so why not build one there and keep the exterior as some kind of memory


First of all, you'd lose the roof, which IMO is part of the charm of the building - I love that bright white roof with the blue Maple Leafs logos on it. 

The other issue is the fact that the exterior is currently being held up in part by the stands, which act as buttresses for the exterior walls. So it's very difficult to alter the inside of the arena without risking the exterior structure.


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## Canadian Chocho

What they should do is move renovate it and put the Marlies there. The Ricoh coliseum can be used for an OHL team.


----------



## Wrk_InProgress

Canadian Chocho said:


> What they should do is move renovate it and put the Marlies there. The Ricoh coliseum can be used for an OHL team.


That would require MLSE to buy the Garden back. I don't think they are very interested in the Garden.


----------



## Mr. Fusion

This video was linked from the Wikipedia entry on the Gardens:






Wiki says nothing's been done with it yet with regards to Loblaw's plans so it still sits empty today.


----------



## CrazyCanuck

It's being delayed right now.


----------



## monkeyronin

Canadian Chocho said:


> I think it's becoming a supermarket.


They're not doing _that_ with it. hno:


----------



## isaidso

The Bell Centre is the biggest arena in the NHL. Is this the limit to the size of a hockey arena with good sight lines? They could probably sell many more tickets than they do, but you get to a point where adding more rows of seating would mean fans are simply too far away to see anything.


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## PinballWizard

Calgary, Pengrowth Saddledome (cap. 19,000), home of the Calgary Flames (NHL), Hitmen (WHL), and Roughnecks (NLL):



















Edmonton, Rexall Place (cap. 17,000), home to the Edmonton Oilers (NHL), the Oil Kings (WHL), and the Rush (NLL):


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## Loranga

Can an olympic sized rink be fitted into Saddledome?


----------



## lpioe

I did the guided tour of Centre Bell when I was in Montreal.
The interior of the arena is very nice and it looks really big.
But the exterior view is pretty boring in my opinion.


----------



## Plumber73

nyrmetros said:


> Anyone remember the 1994 Stanley Cup riot outside of Pacific Colliseum ??


That actually happened downtown on Robson street. A bunch of bone heads I say. U-Tube has some footage of it.


----------



## Луиc

I must say: I´m impressed. Great Arenas, yes sir!!


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## Somnifor

I think the Bell Center is the nicest arena in Canada, and the second best in the NHL.


----------



## eMKay

Loranga said:


> Can an olympic sized rink be fitted into Saddledome?


Yes. 

http://www.pengrowthsaddledome.com/tech.html


----------



## Mr.Underground

*Vancouver 2010: Stadium and Olympic venues*

Could anyone show the Olympic Stadiums and the Olympic venues for the winter games 2010 in Vancouver?

I would be curiouse to see couriouse how Vancouver is preparing to this happening.

Thanks.


----------



## Neda Say

why don't you check the thread about it in the canadian section of the forum!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=319019


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## isaidso

Well, there probably should be a separate thread for it here, so I'll post a few. This is BC Place Stadium. It's a Canadian Football stadium and will host the 2010 Olympic opening and closing ceremonies. It is the world's largest air supported stadium and was completed in 1983. Capacity is 60,000 for Canadian Football. People may be more familiar with American football, which is a direct offshoot of this Canadian game.



walli said:


>






mr.x said:


> NEW RENDERINGS OF RICHMOND OLYMPIC OVAL
> 
> 
> Olympic mode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Post-Games mode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exterior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lobby exterior


Update from last year. They made a point of showcasing advancements in Canadian wood construction technology. Also notice the detail in the roof beams. It's one of the best Olympic venues and shows how beautiful and modern wood can be.



mr.x said:


> big thanks to *bils* for taking these updates:


There are many other Olympic sports venues, an entirely new athlete's village directly across from BC Place Stadium, and many Olympic related infrastructure: a spectacular 'Sea to Sky' highway connecting Vancouver to Whistler up the coast and through the mountains, a new subway line, and major expansion of the airport, a new convention centre, hotels, and Olympic 'Live Sites' that will become Olympic meeting places for the public.


----------



## mr.x

Link: *BC Place Stadium* (Olympic Stadium)
- Olympic Opening & Closing Ceremonies
- nightly Olympic Medal Ceremonies
- Paralympic Opening Ceremony
- seats: 60,000
- status: existing
- location: Downtown Vancouver



Link: *Vancouver Convention & Exhibition Centre Expansion Project* (Media Centre)
- International Broadcast Centre
- Main Press Centre
- status: new/renovated
- location: Downtown Vancouver



Link: *Hillcrest Olympic Curling Centre*
- Olympic Curling
- Paralympic Wheelchair Curling
- seats: 6,000
- status: new
- location: Queen Elizabeth Park, Vancouver



Link: *Vancouver Olympic Village*
- 2,500 athletes and officials
- location: False Creek, Downtown Vancouver (across from Olympic Stadium)
- status: new



Link: *Richmond Olympic Oval*
- speed skating
- location: Richmond (south of Vancouver)
- seats: 6,500



Link: *UBC Winter Sports Centre*
- secondary ice hockey facility
- location: University of British Columbia (Vancouver)
- seats: 7,000


----------



## koolio

Aren't some hockey games taking place in GM Place too? That should count as a venue.


----------



## mr.x

koolio said:


> Aren't some hockey games taking place in GM Place too? That should count as a venue.


The mens hockey games and both mens and women's finals will be at GM Place (18,500 seats), but there is no topic for it.




























BC Place (Olympic Stadium) is the big white dome, while GM Place is the smaller one next to it.


----------



## isaidso

So, the rest of hockey is at UBC? Here's some more Olympic venue pics courtesy of who else, mr.x:



mr.x said:


>


----------



## nyrmetros

no IIHF ice rink sucks big time!


----------



## mr.x

isaidso said:


> So, the rest of hockey is at UBC? Here's some more Olympic venue pics courtesy of who else, mr.x:


Those luge track pictures are extremely outdated lol....the track has been finished since December and is being tested by international sporting officials.


Yup...the new 7,000-seat UBC Winter Sports Centre is currently under construction and will host one men's game and will basically host all of the women's games as well as all of the Paralympic hockey events.


Main entrance


















7,000-seat Arena A










Arena A























































































































Arena B










Arena C - figure skaters practising.


----------



## isaidso

Yeah, I assumed that those luge/bobsleigh pics weren't exactly up to date, but it would be of interest to some to see its progression. 

The UBC Thunderbird Arena A has got to be one of the best arenas in college hockey. Will the basketball team be playing out of there too or is is strictly hockey only?


----------



## mr.x

isaidso said:


> The UBC Thunderbird Arena A has got to be one of the best arenas in college hockey. Will the basketball team be playing out of there too or is is strictly hockey only?


It's a multi-purpose facility, but it will be primarily for hockey. The old facility on the same site had 4 ice rinks, and they were booked 14 hours a day everyday. With the new facility, they had to demolish three of the old rinks to make way for one new practice rink and the main stadium....so, the new facility now has 3 rinks - one less than the old one.

After the Games, the 7,000 seat arena will be downsized to 5,500 seats.


----------



## KingmanIII

Alx-D said:


> ^Ottawa will be the Roughriders (or is it Rough Riders?) and there is no way that saskatchewan could support another team. that whole province is rider country.
> 
> You're right about UB stadium though, she'd be perfect for the Canadian game.


Rough Riders? Again? Cue the old running joke about the CFL, I guess. :lol:

And I was definitely up in the air about another team in SSK (which is why I had them in the 14-team plan). Ditto for St.John's/Windsor.

But I'm positive that a team should be in Anchorage, the Maritimes, and probably Quebec City.


----------



## isaidso

KingmanIII said:


> The CFL needs three to five expansion teams (after Ottawa), with each team playing two games against every divisional opponent and one game against every non-divisional opponent.
> 
> _Teams I would include in a three-team expansion_
> Teams I would also include in a five-team expansion
> (pardon the nicknames if they sound corny)
> 
> *West*
> _Anchorage Malamutes_
> British Columbia Lions
> Calgary Stampeders
> Edmonton Eskimos
> Saskatchewan Roughriders
> Saskatoon Miners
> Winnipeg Blue Bombers
> 
> *East*
> _Atlantic Schooners_
> Hamilton Tiger-Cats
> Montreal Alouettes
> Ottawa Monarchs
> _Quebec Royales_
> St.John's Voyagers/Windsor Ambassadors
> Toronto Argonauts
> 
> And although I'm not sure how interested Buffalo would be in landing a CFL franchise after losing the Bills, but you probably know about the University of Buffalo's UB Stadium, and I swear, that place was MADE for Canadian football:


I agree with all of your points, but I'm not sure about St. John's. Geographically, it's more appealing, but it has more chance of success in London, Windsor, or KW. Atlantic Schooners? Well, that's what the original idea was, but I much prefer Halifax Hurricanes. Halifax is at the end of hurricane alley after all. Schooners is a little hokey.

In the west, Saskatchewan will eventually be able to support 2 teams, but not till Saskatoon gets up to about 300,000+. I'd rather an expansion team went to Kelowna or Victoria. Each provides fertile *new* ground for the CFL with a significant and growing population. Kelowna Coyotes! Victoria Whalers!

UB Stadium is awesome, but it's got a US field on there. You'd have to continuously re-paint and they'd have to give up the look of their end zone. I think people in Buffalo would eventually come around to supporting a CFL franchise if they lost the Bills. They love football first, and it's a matter of having a team or watching other people's NFL teams on television. 

Many Torontonians opt for watching other people's NFL teams on television over going to see their own team, but you know what they say about Toronto sports 'fans'! Half of them are attracted to the glitter or because they think it's cool. People in Buffalo are genuine football fans and will go out of love for the game. They want their own team and will support and build it up till it's the type of team they can be proud of.

Torontonians should take notes.

Kelowna only has the Apple Bowl, home of the Okanagan Suns football team. Saskatoon has Griffiths Stadium at the University of Saskatchewan which could one day be expanded to 30,000. I believe this is the University of Saskatchewan going down to Universite de Laval in 2006. Griffiths would be awesome if it were built as a complete bowl, but only if they got rid of that bloody athletics track. Can't they put that in the field outside the stadium?

*Griffiths Stadium* 








http://facilities.usask.ca/images/news/Griffiths Stadium/griffiths.gif

*Apple Bowl*








http://www.jasonpettyjohn.com/images/fire_web/pettyjohn_fire_39.jpg


----------



## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> I agree with all of your points, but I'm not sure about St. John's. Geographically, it's more appealing, but it has more chance of success in London, Windsor, or KW. Atlantic Schooners? Well, that's what the original idea was, but I much prefer Halifax Hurricanes. Halifax is at the end of hurricane alley after all. Schooners is a little hokey.
> 
> In the west, Saskatchewan will eventually be able to support 2 teams, but not till Saskatoon gets up to about 300,000+. I'd rather an expansion team went to Kelowna or Victoria. Each provides fertile *new* ground for the CFL with a significant and growing population. Kelowna Coyotes! Victoria Whalers!
> 
> UB Stadium is awesome, but it's got a US field on there. You'd have to continuously re-paint and they'd have to give up the look of their end zone. I think people in Buffalo would eventually come around to supporting a CFL franchise if they lost the Bills. They love football first, and it's a matter of having a team or watching other people's NFL teams on television.
> 
> Many Torontonians opt for watching other people's NFL teams on television over going to see their own team, but you know what they say about Toronto sports 'fans'! Half of them are attracted to the glitter or because they think it's cool. People in Buffalo are genuine football fans and will go out of love for the game. They want their own team and will support and build it up till it's the type of team they can be proud of.
> 
> Torontonians should take notes.


St. John's (NF) was kinda an afterthought. Outside of the urban core it is a very sparsely populated region.

Even though southern Ontario is kinda saturated with the Argos and Ti-Cats in the area, I think a franchise could be successful in Windsor--from what I've heard they've been lobbying for one there...plus if they're successful they could provide a refreshing alternative to that...*ahem*..."other" Detroit area team...


----------



## isaidso

KingmanIII said:


> St. John's (NF) was kinda an afterthought. Outside of the urban core it is a very sparsely populated region.
> 
> Even though southern Ontario is kinda saturated with the Argos and Ti-Cats in the area, I think a franchise could be successful in Windsor--from what I've heard they've been lobbying for one there...plus if they're successful they could provide a refreshing alternative to that...*ahem*..."other" Detroit area team...


I'd prefer Windsor too. It's smaller than London or KW, but is geographically a more appealing choice. It's far enough from Hamilton to establish its own fan base and it's a genuine sports town. Sports is part of the culture in Windsor, and you've got the added benefit of some extra fan support from that huge population on the American side of the border. 

There are fans of Canadian football throughout the US and die hard football fans are going to be receptive to more football. There's also the value proposition that the CFL provides. I'm not sure what tickets cost to that Detroit team, but I imagine it's just not that affordable to some people in Detroit. The CFL would represent an opportunity to watch pro football at a more reasonable price point.

What's your interest in all this? Are you a fan, work in sports, etc? You seem to have given this a little more thought than the casual observer. I've been obsessed with this for as long as I can remember. It's to the point that I'm contemplating becoming involved in some capacity; perhaps at the college level first, then see where that takes me.


----------



## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> I'd prefer Windsor too. It's smaller than London or KW, but is geographically a more appealing choice. It's far enough from Hamilton to establish its own fan base and it's a genuine sports town. Sports is part of the culture in Windsor, and you've got the added benefit of some extra fan support from that huge population on the American side of the border.
> 
> There are fans of Canadian football throughout the US and die hard football fans are going to be receptive to more football. There's also the value proposition that the CFL provides. I'm not sure what tickets cost to that Detroit team, but I imagine it's just not that affordable to some people in Detroit. The CFL would represent an opportunity to watch pro football at a more reasonable price point.
> 
> What's your interest in all this? Are you a fan, work in sports, etc? You seem to have given this a little more thought than the casual observer. I've been obsessed with this for as long as I can remember. It's to the point that I'm contemplating becoming involved in some capacity; perhaps at the college level first, then see where that takes me.


The Lions have some of the most affordable tickets in the NFL, and the upper deck is the closer to the field than any other stadium in the league. The catch? Well...you get the picture...


----------



## isaidso

I thought the situation in Hamilton was bad, but 0-16 is worse, I suppose. They should do a study to see how many people from Detroit would go to Windsor games. It could be just a trickle of say 1,000 to 2,000, but 5,000 to 10,000 would be a large enough number to make the case for a Windsor team stronger. 

People talk about Windsor being a sports town, so how many people go to Windsor Lancers football games. Are we talking 2,000 or 10,000? Perhaps, the U of W should build a proper football only stadium and then host a CFL game just like Halifax does from time to time.

KC? Are you from Kansas City? Historically in Canada, hockey has been the only sport that has received adequate attention, money, etc. The rest has been left with what ever crumbs fall their way. Football used to be a bigger priority, but the fortunes of most things in Canada rest with whether Toronto deems it important. Toronto has turned its back on practically all Canadian sport other than the Leafs. 

Add the fact that Canadian government has never taken sports seriously in this country up until about 5 years ago, and the dire state of sports infrastructure in Canada is not a surprise. We have abundant hockey arenas, but beyond that, it's shocking how bad the situation is. I don't think there's one arena in the country over 2,000 seats that has been built for basketball. For the most part, basketball is played in hockey rinks which is far from ideal. There's only 2 Olympic sized swimming pools in all of Greater Toronto. Football stadiums? The last significant stadium built for football was BC Place Stadium in 1983. It's been 26 years! The Skydome is a multi-purpose facility where baseball was the priority. You can't even see the corner of the end zones from some seats.

hno:

I'm hoping that the stimulus package will help with stadium construction in Canada, but I'll believe it when I see it. Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, Victoria, Kelowna, Calgary, Windsor, KW, Ottawa, Quebec City, Halifax; they all need help. The track record in this country is dismal.


----------



## Bobby3

Do Yellowknife and Whitehorse have any stadiums to speak of?


----------



## isaidso

Bobby3 said:


> Do Yellowknife and Whitehorse have any stadiums to speak of?


No, they have nothing. They are both very small cities, but have the potential to boom due to the resource wealth of the north. They could become Canadian versions of Anchorage within a generation. Their resources have only recently become economically viable due to the rapid warming of northern Canada.


----------



## Sagaris

isaidso said:


> I don't think there's one arena in the country over 2,000 seats that has been built for basketball.


 Just for note, the investors group centre here at the UofM seats over 3000 and was built for Basketball/Volleyball.


----------



## isaidso

Sagaris said:


> Just for note, the investors group centre here at the UofM seats over 3000 and was built for Basketball/Volleyball.


That's terrific. Any photos?


----------



## isaidso

> *Molson Stadium to begin $29.4M expansion*
> Last Updated: Monday, March 9, 2009 | 10:36 AM ET
> CBC News
> The Montreal Alouettes announced on Sunday that the long-awaited expansion of Percival Molson Stadium will be completed by the 2010 CFL season, but the project's $29.4 million price tag has drawn fire from residents.
> 
> Alouettes president Larry Smith, speaking at a Sunday news conference alongside Mayor Gérald Tremblay and provincial representatives, said team owner Robert Wetenhall will contribute $6 million to the project. The provincial government will provide $19.3 million, and $4 million will come from the city, he said.
> 
> The proposed improvements include 5,000 new seats, increasing the seating capacity to 25,000 from 20,202.
> 
> "This investment demonstrates that our administration and the government of Quebec value and support the development of Montreal's professional teams, as they are the great ambassadors for our city," said Tremblay.
> 
> "I am pleased that the new Percival Molson Stadium will not only be for the benefit of the Alouettes and their fans, but also for McGill students and all Montrealers."
> 
> Some residents who live near the stadium question whether the city should be spending money on the expansion at a time when it is cutting expenses elsewhere.
> 
> Last week, Tremblay announced the city would chop $155 million from its budget for 2009 to cope with the sagging economy. The city said it will save $95 million by leaving vacant jobs unfilled, freezing some salaries and abandoning some as yet unspecified projects. It will also cut $40 million from the transit budget.
> 
> Lucia Kowaluk, president of the Milton Parc citizens committee, told CBC News the added costs are an unwelcome burden to taxpayers.
> 
> She also said she is leery of the prospect of 5,000 more football fans in the neighbourhood.
> 
> "They are a real … irritant in the community," she said. "They don't know how to behave themselves. They drink too much beer in the stadium and they urinate around, and we're not happy."
> 
> Kowaluk said she'd like to see more police presence after games to deter antisocial behaviour.


Molson Stadium is a McGill University football stadium that is used by the Montreal Alouettes of the Canadian Football League. Here's one image of the 2nd deck to be added. They're also expanding the larger grandstand on the other side to wrap around half of the end zone. Montreal really needed a lot more than 5,000 extra seats, but I believer the NIMBY's complained. For more information follow the link. It's in French, but the diagrams adequately depict what is being done. http://en.montrealalouettes.com/uploads/assets/MTL/Documents/expansionproject.pdf


----------



## Alx-D

^So It's finally being built now? It's been on the table for a couple years, it's about time they did something.


----------



## isaidso

Alx-D said:


> ^So It's finally being built now? It's been on the table for a couple years, it's about time they did something.


They had a great deal of opposition from local residents. It's my understanding that the Alouettes wanted more than 5,000 additional seats, but had to settle for just 5,000. Even after the expansion, Molson Stadium will be the smallest stadium in the league. It's arguably one of the best places to watch football in the country though.

I'm curious to find out what the real attendance would be if Molson was big enough. If the Alouettes make Molson Stadium a long term permanent home, and football continues to grow in Quebec, I wonder if a second Montreal area team would work. It's not inconceivable that Montreal could one day support 2 teams, each selling out a 25,000 seater. 

Let's keep in mind that Montreal was drawing crowds of 50,000+ back in the late 70s.


----------



## isaidso

Here's the new western facade of the Air Canada Centre. It's been expanded to make way for a new pedestrian walkway connecting a massive condo tower being built across the street with the arena, and on to Union Station. It's Toronto's largest arena and home to the Toronto Raptors of the NBA and the Toronto Maple Leafs of the NHL. First a shot taken from a distance and then a close up. They are getting close to installation of the new video screen.

March 21st

















Courtesy of Silence&Motion at urbantoronto


----------



## isaidso

*New football stadium officially announced today*

A new home for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers of the CFL on the campus of the University of Manitoba. The stadium will be shared with the university football team, the Bisons.




























www.blueandgold.ca

*STADIUM & MULTI-SPORT COMPLEX ACHIEVES MAJOR MILESTONE*

April 2, 2009 – Construction of world-class athletic and recreation venues at the University of Manitoba (UM), including a new stadium for both the Blue Bombers and the Bisons, took another major step forward today following the signing of key agreements.
The financial core of the deal includes a $100 million plus private sector investment that significantly alleviates the load on taxpayers due to the retail development and economic engine at Polo Park. The project will also provide an important economic stimulus for Manitoba in terms of creating an estimated 1,468 person-years of employment and $26.2 million in new tax revenues. Signed agreements will provide for:

$35 million in joint support from the Government of Canada and Province of Manitoba. 
Federal funding will be strictly limited to the amateur and community sport venues.
Acquisition of Winnipeg Blue Bombers with change in ownership slated for early 2010.
Multi-year land lease by UM, subject to final approval by its Board of Governors. 
Sale of existing stadium site at fair market value, subject to final approval by City Council.

The exhaustive team effort, which follows two years of negotiations, clears the way for final approvals by City Council and the UM Board of Governors. It will also allow Creswin to tackle the final challenge of securing retail tenants for the project’s sister development at Polo Park. “We’re at third and goal thanks to the determination of all our partners,” said David Asper, “plus we have an outstanding short yardage team at Creswin that will push us to victory.” The retail marketing, leasing and financing phase, already underway, will conclude in September and be followed by financing and construction tendering with closing of the deal as early as February 2010. 

*OTHER ANTICIPATED KEY DATES IN THE PROJECT TIMELINE:*

Final stadium architectural and engineering design process – immediate
New stadium site preparation and landscaping work – fall 2009
Shovels in ground on new stadium – spring 2010
Construction of phase 1 retail at existing site – spring 2010
Stadium construction substantially complete – spring 2011
Demolition of existing stadium site and construction of phase 2 retail – spring 2011
Opening of new stadium – football season 2011
Substantial completion of phase 3 retail at existing site – summer 2013

*COMMUNITY INTEREST FULLY PROTECTED:*

The community will be protected by a Community Interest Agreement (CIA) guaranteeing the team’s home in Winnipeg, in perpetuity. To represent the community and ensure all agreements are adhered to, a not-for-profit corporation entitled the Winnipeg Football Club Stakeholders (WFCS) has been established with its Board consisting of two members each from the Province, City, WFC and Creswin.

The WFCS will be the ultimate owner of the new stadium and will have, as its mandate, the authority to provide broad oversight and monitoring of the new facilities and corporate structure to ensure the Bombers stay in Winnipeg and operate as a community-minded organization. 

“We are pleased to support this project,” said Manitoba Premier Gary Doer. “When the overall development is complete, it will be a huge vote of confidence in our economy and will ensure the Bombers stay a strong and active part of our community and national identity.”

Ken Hildahl, Chair of the Board of the Winnipeg Football Club echoed the Premier’s comments. “Once finalized, this opens up a whole new era of stability and prominence for the Blue Bombers in Manitoba and across Canada,” he said. “During these lengthy negotiations, we believe we have served the community well with agreements that ensure the Bombers forever remain a lasting legacy, right here in Winnipeg.”

*BEST IN CLASS ATHLETIC FACILITIES:*

Once complete, the facilities, which include the new stadium, refurbished University Stadium and new fitness centre, will be transformational for the University of Manitoba Fort Garry Campus according to President, Dr. David Barnard.

“In terms of critical mass, this development will allow us to build on the strengths of the Max Bell Centre, Investors Group Athletic Centre and new indoor soccer complex,” he said, 
“and help transform the University into a year-round sport and recreation destination. This will position us as a leader in athletic and community development across Canada and provide many synergistic opportunities for our institution, our students and the community.”

Winnipeg Mayor Sam Katz said a new stadium and additional sports venues are long overdue. “Not only will Winnipeggers benefit tremendously from these new facilities that guarantee a future home for our Winnipeg Blue Bombers,” he said, “but the new retail at the existing site is projected to generate millions annually in new municipal taxes. I’d say that’s a win-win for all.” 

In closing, Asper reflected on the more than two year journey since he initially presented the Board of the WFC with a proposal to construct a new stadium. “While we won’t be able to call the new facility ‘the house that Jack built’, one thing is for sure – when it happens, it’ll have a new name - ‘the house we all built’.” 

The new 30,000 seat, fan-friendly stadium (expandable to 45,000 seats) will be constructed on a 20 acre site within the sports precinct at the intersection of University Crescent and Chancellor Matheson Drive at the University of Manitoba, Fort Garry Campus.


----------



## Alx-D

^ that will be right up with new BC Place for best stadium in Canada. I hope the CMNT plays a few games there, it'd be a great venue.


----------



## isaidso

Alx-D said:


> ^ that will be right up with new BC Place for best stadium in Canada. I hope the CMNT plays a few games there, it'd be a great venue.


2011 is shaping up to be a great year for infrastructure upgrades in pro football. A new stadium for the Bombers, major upgrades and new roof for BC Place, the expansion of Molson Stadium to 25,000, and possibly the realization of the a new stadium and team in Ottawa! Not bad at all.

I agree with you that BC Place and this new one in Winnipeg will be the class of the CFL. Hopefully, the benefits of investment in stadia will encourage the Saskatchewan Roughriders to pursue a new stadium in Regina. They really deserve it. 35,000 expandable to 50,000 in Regina? 5 years ago something that size would have seemed too big. I'm not too sure now.

Would Calgary be next? They're consistently close to sell outs every game in a very old, out of date facility. If the Stamps built a state of the art modern stadium with all the big city amenities, I bet they'd be able to boost attendance at least 25%. 45,000 expandable to 65,000?

Southern Ontario remains football's weak link. What's CMNT?


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> 2011 is shaping up to be a great year for infrastructure upgrades in pro football. A new stadium for the Bombers, major upgrades and new roof for BC Place, the expansion of Molson Stadium to 25,000, and possibly the realization of the a new stadium and team in Ottawa! Not bad at all.
> 
> I agree with you that BC Place and this new one in Winnipeg will be the class of the CFL. Hopefully, the benefits of investment in stadia will encourage the Saskatchewan Roughriders to pursue a new stadium in Regina. They really deserve it. 35,000 expandable to 50,000 in Regina? 5 years ago something that size would have seemed too big. I'm not too sure now.
> 
> Would Calgary be next? They're consistently close to sell outs every game in a very old, out of date facility. If the Stamps built a state of the art modern stadium with all the big city amenities, I bet they'd be able to boost attendance at least 25%. 45,000 expandable to 65,000?
> 
> Southern Ontario remains football's weak link. What's CMNT?


I'm guessing CMNT = Canadian Men's National Team (Soccer)?

As for Regina... there's been a lot of discussion and I think it's much closer than you think 



> Regina Mayor Now Expecting New Stadium
> "New entertainment facility" in the cards
> 
> Reported By Patrick Book
> Posted April 3, 2009 - 2:12pm
> 
> Discussing his Council's 2009 budget with the media, Mayor Pat Fiacco is hinting very strongly that a new stadium will be coming to the city.
> 
> "I'm fairly confident that as we move forwards we'll be hearing some good news about a new entertainment facility for Regina that is going to serve those that are involved in sport, those that are involved in arts, culture, entertainment. It's needed, but that's down the road."
> 
> He stresses that the province is the other major partner in such a project and no forward progress will be made until the province completes its concept review, which he believes will take at least a few months.
> 
> "And that's fine. In the meantime we're investing in our current facility, Mosaic Stadium. We want to make sure the infrastructure there is being taken care of."
> 
> When asked if we could see an allocation of money for such a project in the 2010 budget, Fiacco laughs and insists it will likely occur before then.
> 
> Source


I don't know if it's been mentioned at all before (and I'm too lazy to look), but the most talked about site, is the soon to be abandoned rail yards (they are moving to the West of the city by the airport as part of the huge transportation hub being developed) just north of downtown and just south of the Warehouse district (centre in this photo):










From listening to when the mayor speaks, he's a VERY big proponent for a downtown stadium as a way to keep the downtown vibrant and also to bring traffic to downtown more. I really hope he keeps pushing that point as I think it would be awesome to have a new stadium so close to the downtown core. Would be a great way to link the downtown to the warehouse district. Also, the Casino is right at the northern edge of downtown, so that could also be linked to the stadium in the future.

And as an added bonus, here was a stadium that an architechtural firm drew back in 2000 or so I think. It was a design for a possible future Regina Stadium:










I kind of like it, and I think that the seating layout is pretty great. Endzone seats are the worst seats anyway, so minimizing them like that is a good idea.


----------



## isaidso

I've been hearing subtle gossip about a new Saskatchewan Roughrider stadium, but never thought it was anything more than a wish list. If Regina does go ahead with a downtown stadium, where is there a suitable lot? Do Rider fans want space for tailgating?

That stadium image above looks rather 1980s, but I do like the seating plan. Seats between the posts are best, but end zone seats do have benefits. Nothing screams minor league more than having no end zone seats. Beyond this superior design characteristic, end zone seats also provide cheap tickets to people who don't have a great deal of money to spend on entertainment. In effect, it makes pro football more accessible to a wider segment of the population.

What range of capacity would Regina be looking at? 35,000 expandable to 50,000?


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> I've been hearing subtle gossip about a new Saskatchewan Roughrider stadium, but never thought it was anything more than a wish list. *If Regina does go ahead with a downtown stadium, where is there a suitable lot?* Do Rider fans want space for tailgating?
> 
> That stadium image above looks rather 1980s, but I do like the seating plan. Seats between the posts are best, but end zone seats do have benefits. *Nothing screams minor league more than having no end zone seats.* Beyond this superior design characteristic, end zone seats also provide cheap tickets to people who don't have a great deal of money to spend on entertainment. In effect, it makes pro football more accessible to a wider segment of the population.
> 
> *What range of capacity would Regina be looking at? 35,000 expandable to 50,000?*


I bolded the specific parts I'm replying to:

Question 1: Look at my above post... I put a picture and explained the possible location pretty thoroughly.

Comment: I don't see how a lack of endzone seats makes a venue minor league. Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton almost has no endzone seating, and that is FAR from minor league... In fact, I don't think they even use the endzone seating in regular season play. Sure some endzone seating has its good uses (cheap), but honestly, for Football, it's not very good in terms of sightlines and all that.

Question 2: Yes, I'm thinking those will be the figures shot around.


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## isaidso

Air Canada Centre new atrium and video screen, Toronto









http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2508/3907789087_3fb15f73cc.jpg









http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2451/3907789923_16519452b8.jpg









http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2489/3907789647_a7dce384e3.jpg









http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2423/3907789811_1e4c2514ea.jpg


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## KingmanIII

^^ So was this part of the Maple Leaf Square development or is this a separate project?


----------



## isaidso

KingmanIII said:


> ^^ So was this part of the Maple Leaf Square development or is this a separate project?


It's a separate project, but they're associated. Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment own both the Raptors the Maple Leafs who play at the Air Canada Centre. Maple Leaf Square across the street has ties to Maple Leaf Sports and is billed as Canada's first sports themed condo project. Both projects are meant to work together. There's even a skywalk connecting the two.


----------



## JYDA

I am excited to announce that BMO Field in Toronto, home of my beloved Toronto FC, are giving the artificial surface the red card and moving to grass for next season. The move wasn't as simple as it may seem. The stadium is owned by the city and moving to grass would have eliminated community use for the stadium which was one of the stipulations for getting government funds to construct it in the first place. The club offered to shell out 6 million dollars to provide alternate fields and facilities to the city to get the deal done. City council agreed and voted 29-0 in favour of grass just a few hours ago.


----------



## BoulderGrad

JYDA said:


> I am excited to announce that BMO Field in Toronto, home of my beloved Toronto FC, are giving the artificial surface the red card and moving to grass for next season. The move wasn't as simple as it may seem. The stadium is owned by the city and moving to grass would have eliminated community use for the stadium which was one of the stipulations for getting government funds to construct it in the first place. The club offered to shell out 6 million dollars to provide alternate fields and facilities to the city to get the deal done. City council agreed and voted 29-0 in favour of grass just a few hours ago.


Lovely. Now when are they going to expand the stadium to 30,000 seats ;-)


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## JYDA

BoulderGrad said:


> Lovely. Now when are they going to expand the stadium to 30,000 seats ;-)


Hopefully soon. Waiting list for season tix is over 17,000 now. I estimate there are still 10,000 in front of me in linehno:


----------



## isaidso

JYDA said:


> Hopefully soon. Waiting list for season tix is over 17,000 now. I estimate there are still 10,000 in front of me in linehno:


It may be too small, but at least soccer has a proper facility now. That's more than I can say for our football team. Congratulations on your grass. There are far too few grass surfaces in this country. Hopefully, the Pan American Games bid is successful. Then there will be a grass surface stadium in Hamilton as well.


----------



## lpioe

Any info on how an expansion would look like?
I guess with community use no longer important they could build a proper 4th stand behind one of the goals?


----------



## JYDA

This temporary stand here was erected for the game against Real Madrid. It held about a thousand.










I spoke to club reps who said they're planning on adding a similar permanent stand for next season that would be about 2500 to 3000 seats. This stand can be constructed in a painless manner without having to knock anything else down. There are large party suites in each corner and they don't want to touch those. 

The club have also said there are two options for further expansion. The first is putting a 2nd deck on this stand that would add about 8000 seats.











Then 2nd option is to extend the 2nd deck of the west stand around to the south stand at the top of this picture. I believe that would add another 5 or 6 thousand seats. 











Fully expanded I'd guess it would be about 40,000


----------



## ryebreadraz

JYDA said:


> Fully expanded I'd guess it would be about 40,000


I've heard that it could hold 45,000 fully expanded with a second level wrapping the entire stadium. Of course that's extremely far down the road, but that would be the max out capacity from what I heard.


----------



## koolio

I don't think they'll be looking to expand beyond 25,000 anytime in the near future (for the next decade).


----------



## ryebreadraz

koolio said:


> I don't think they'll be looking to expand beyond 25,000 anytime in the near future (for the next decade).


I think we could see 30,000 within the decade, but no more than that for a while. In the next couple years I think we'll see the beer garden gone and stands built which would put capacity in the 22,000-23,000 area. Five or seven years after that, would could see the second level added on the east end. I'm not saying it will happen, but I think there's a reasonable possibility.


----------



## Chiricano

...


----------



## lpioe

I don't understand why they are not more ambitious if they have a waiting list of 17'000.
The stadiums looks like it has been built with expansion in mind so it should be fairly cheap.
I'm not sure which of the 2 options for the upper tier I prefer. The 2nd deck along the sideline stand would ruin the downtown views from the main stand but the stadium would overall look better and they could sell more expensive seats than behind the south goal stand.


----------



## MS20

lpioe said:


> I don't understand why they are not more ambitious if they have a waiting list of 17'000.
> .


Keep them keen. Having a demand like that is perfect for the club. It allows them to hike prices, and generally it tends to create an air of exclusivity. This stadium is perfect for expansion, and it will be in due time. However, make sure that supply never outstrips demand, and retain a long waiting list if possible.


----------



## lpioe

^^ I see your point. But if the waiting list is nearly as big as the current capacity of the stadiums it's a bit over the top in my opinion. 
If they could expand to 30'000 they'd still have a high demand, but they would get an additional income of 10'000 season tickets.

What are the prices for a game of Toronto FC at the moment like?


----------



## koolio

lpioe said:


> ^^ I see your point. But if the waiting list is nearly as big as the current capacity of the stadiums it's a bit over the top in my opinion.
> If they could expand to 30'000 they'd still have a high demand, but they would get an additional income of 10'000 season tickets.
> 
> What are the prices for a game of Toronto FC at the moment like?


The prices are pretty high by MLS standards.

But they are doing the right thing by not expanding too quickly. There is some rumblings that the waiting list figure is a bit fishy so I don't imagine that it is truly as high as 17,000. Either way, it would be better for everyone to wait it out and see what the demand is like a couple of years more down the road.


----------



## isaidso

*Asper gets stadium-plan extension*
Has 2 major U.S. retailers lined up for new development

Last Updated: Thursday, October 1, 2009 | 6:14 PM 
CBC News

Winnipeg business magnate David Asper has been granted a year-long extension on his plans to build a new stadium for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. CBC News has learned the sports team has agreed to give Asper more time to come up with the $100 million in funding he needs for the project.

Asper announced on Wednesday his intention to reveal plans for a major retail project on the existing site of Canad Inns Stadium, located beside the Polo Park shopping mall. The money from that development, dubbed The Elms, would help finance the new stadium. Asper also would own the team as part of the deal.

Asper said Thursday, however, that the sluggish economy has forced him to delay his plans. Despite the setback, the would-be Blue Bombers owner said he's confident the project will go through. "I guess our stakeholders will be the final determinant of that — our partners, the football club, the province, the city," Asper said. "I'm prepared to pursue this." He said he has two major U.S.-based retail clients interested in setting up shop at the new development, but he would not disclose who they are.

The Blue Bombers said they didn't have to grant him the extension, but said it was necessary. "We'd prefer it be dealt with now as opposed to a year from now," said Blue Bombers chairman Ken Hildahl. "The economy took a severe downturn 12 to 18 months ago when the original deadlines were first being contemplated. So, we didn't see it as an unreasonable request, given what's happening in the economy," he said.

Retail expert doubts extension will be enough. Retail Analyst Robert Warren told CBC News Thursday he feels the still-recovering economy and a play-it-safe attitude among retailers could further delay David Asper's plans. "A year might be a tad optimistic. Everything I see is saying it's more like a year and a half, 20 months [to] 24 months," Warren said.

Warren speculated about which two major U.S. retailers Asper may have landed to anchor his proposed retail development. "I'm thinking it's going to be someone in the fashion area, and I'm thinking … J. Crew or Banana Republic," he said. "We've been looking to bring them to Winnipeg for a while."


*The Winnipeg Bluebombers play Canadian Football in the Canadian Football League:*









http://www.davidlipnowski.com/ftpimages/first09/7.jpg


*A reminder of the proposal for the University of Manitoba campus:*

















http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/3406532719_52d7afa2fc.jpg?v=0
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2008/09/15/wpg-stadium-proposed-584.jpg


----------



## Calvin W

Well things could be looking up in Canada, stadium wise.

Hamilton is all but 100% good to go with Toronto winning the 2015 PanAm Games.

Winnipeg is still working on it's new Stadium.

Regina is starting preliminary studies for a new retractable roofed downtown stadium.

Vancouver is renovating BC Place.

So stay tuned.


----------



## isaidso

^^ There's also the stadium plan for Ottawa and quite a few other plans coming to fruition. Molson Stadium at McGill University is being expanded to 25,000 seats for the start of the 2010 football season, while Moncton is almost finished building a 10,000 seat athletics stadium that will be expanded to 20,000 for football. It's not a big stadium, but great for a city of 125,000!

*Moncton's stadium is almost finished!*









photo: Keith Hawkins on Flickr.


----------



## isaidso

Here's another small stadium that underwent an enlargement. This is the college football stadium for Université Laval. The stadium now seats 12,300 fans, but still too small to accommodate even the smallest college football crowds at this school.


----------



## KingmanIII

Laval? That's Andre Durie's alma mater, isn't it?

Both he and Lumsden (if he didn't always get hurt) belong in the NFL.


----------



## isaidso

I googled it. Wikipedia says Andre Durie was a York Lion. I hope Lumsden and he stay in Canada. I don't want to have to go to a foreign country to watch them play. That would suck, big time.


----------



## krudmonk

Look at this shot of BMO:








Considering how tall the Toronto skyline is and how distant it looks there, how does this qualify as a "downtown stadium?" That's been cited as the key factor in TFC having a more adult fanbase, but I'm not sure that's much different than other locales around the league.


----------



## JYDA

krudmonk said:


> Look at this shot of BMO:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considering how tall the Toronto skyline is and how distant it looks there, how does this qualify as a "downtown stadium?" That's been cited as the key factor in TFC having a more adult fanbase, but I'm not sure that's much different than other locales around the league.


That picture is a tad deceiving. The CN tower is 2 miles away. Folks living in the condo towers around the financial district will walk to games. Here's another picture from the BMO field parking lot.


----------



## Alx-D

krudmonk said:


> Look at this shot of BMO:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considering how tall the Toronto skyline is and how distant it looks there, how does this qualify as a "downtown stadium?" That's been cited as the key factor in TFC having a more adult fanbase, but I'm not sure that's much different than other locales around the league.


It's a "downtown" stadium because the area around the the Exhibition grounds is still a fairly dense commercial/residential area. The Exhibition grounds and the CN tower (the big one in the middle) are also both major transit hubs that are serviced by both the "Go train" and TTC street cars. The distance is walkable too if you have the time, about 30-40 minutes. Try walking to Bridgeview or Commerce City.


----------



## ryebreadraz

Alx-D said:


> It's a "downtown" stadium because the area around the the Exhibition grounds is still a fairly dense commercial/residential area. The Exhibition grounds and the CN tower (the big one in the middle) are also both major transit hubs that are serviced by both the "Go train" and TTC street cars. The distance is walkable too if you have the time, about 30-40 minutes. Try walking to Bridgeview or Commerce City.


Try walking to Frisco. You might be able to make the season opener.


----------



## BoulderGrad

I put this together when people were talking about how close MLS SSS's are to downtown. BMO is for all intents and purposes downtown.



BoulderGrad said:


> Just a breif survey of SSS in MLS:
> 
> -Toyota Park (Chicago Fire): Bridgeview, IL, 12 miles from Downtown Chicago
> -Columbus Crew Stadium: Columbus, OH, 5 miles from Downtown Columbus
> -Red Bull Arena (NY Red Bulls): Harrison, NJ, 10 Miles from Manhattan
> -BMO Field (Toronto FC): Toronto, ON, 2.5 miles from Downtown Toronto
> -Home Depot Center(LA Galaxy, Chivas USA): Carson, CA, 17 Miles from Downtown LA
> -Dick's Sporting Goods Park (Colorado Rapids): Commerce City, CO, 9 miles from Downtown Denver
> -Pizza Hut Park (FC Dallas): Frisco, TX 30 miles from Downtown Dallas
> -Rio Tinto Stadium (Real Salt Lake): Sandy, UT, 14 miles from Downtown SLC
> 
> Future Stadiums:
> -Union Field at Chester (Philadelphia Union): Chester, PA, 20 Miles from Downtown Philadelphia
> -New Dynamo Stadium (Houston Dynamo): Houston TX, in Downtown Houston
> -New Earthquakes Stadium (San Jose Earthquakes): San Jose, Ca, 2 miles from Downtown
> -PGE Park (Portland Timbers): Portland, OR, ~1 mile from Downtown Portland


-New Wizards Stadium (Kansas City Wizards): Kansas City?, KS, 16 miles from downtown


----------



## JYDA

I didn't realize the Philly stadium is that far from downtown.


----------



## isaidso

JYDA said:


> I didn't realize the Philly stadium is that far from downtown.


I just looked at a map. It's half way between downtown Philly and Wilmington, Delaware. It's really not in Philadelphia at all.


----------



## isaidso

*Regina multi-purpose stadium proposal*

Regina, Saskatchewan is proposing to replace it's open air (Canadian) football stadium with a new multi-purpose facility. The primary tenant would be the Saskatchewan Roughriders football team, the only professional sports team in the province. 

Due to the harsh climate on the Canadian prairie, a dome or stadium with a retractable roof is being proposed so that the facility can be used all year round. There are only 200,000 people in the City of Regina, so the $350 million cost of such a proposal represents a massive financial outlay for such a small population base. A stadium in this price range needs to accommodate other functions besides football. 

The Saskatchewan Roughriders currently sell out Mosaic Stadium, capacity 30,945 seats, on a regular basis. The new facility would have from 33,000 to 38,000 permanent seats, but the ability to expand up to 50,000 so that the city can host large events like the Grey Cup (north America's oldest football championship).

*The current home of the Roughriders: Mosaic Stadium*









http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_No9RcUMNZ...NE1dZd_M/s400/MosaicStadiumIMG_0898Regina.jpg

*The new proposal*























































*Go Rider Nation!*


----------



## Alx-D

WOW! 
A Canadian Wolrd Cup bid is starting to not look as insane as it did only a few short years ago. GO CANADA 2026!


----------



## KingmanIII

Wow...that Regina proposal looks wicked.

It's probably too ambitious at $350 mil, though.


----------



## Nate

Regarding the Regina drawings, that was just a part of the feasability report that the government released. The report is still ongoing and the full one will be released early in the new year.

Also something interesting to note, if you look at those drawings, the location is right downtown. Those buildings to the south of the proposed location are buildings that form the northern section of the downtown core.

As for World Cup bid potential, don't all World Cup stadiums need a natural playing surface? If not, then I guess it would work.


----------



## isaidso

^^ Yes, a WC soccer bid would require grass, but that's not insurmountable. The crucial infrastructure is having adequate stadia. Field Turf can always be replaced with grass for a big event. 

Looks like there will be 4 grass surfaces in Canada by 2015: 

1. Commonwealth Stadium, Edmonton 
2. Pan American Stadium, Hamilton
3. BMO Field, Toronto
4. Moncton Stadium, Moncton


----------



## Bobby3

Stade Saputo in Montreal has grass.


----------



## Nate

Bobby3 said:


> Stade Saputo in Montreal has grass.


However, it doesn't have nearly enough capacity nor the amenities required for a World Cup Stadium. I'm not sure there would be enough support nation-wide for a bid that would require so much improvement to the sporting infrastructure across the nation. The Olympics can be a hard enough sell as it is and that's just for one city/region's preparations let alone the preparations for around 10 regions in Canada. Although that could be a benefit I guess since the development overall could be pretty equal and there would be less regional bickering/complaining.


----------



## Calvin W

Nate said:


> However, it doesn't have nearly enough capacity nor the amenities required for a World Cup Stadium. I'm not sure there would be enough support nation-wide for a bid that would require so much improvement to the sporting infrastructure across the nation. The Olympics can be a hard enough sell as it is and that's just for one city/region's preparations let alone the preparations for around 10 regions in Canada. Although that could be a benefit I guess since the development overall could be pretty equal and there would be less regional bickering/complaining.



Well if we include Moncton, then I think we can agree that Saputo Stadium deserves to be on the list.

Honestly though Commonwealth Stadium would be the only one at present large enough for the World Cup.


----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> Well if we include Moncton, then I think we can agree that Saputo Stadium deserves to be on the list.
> 
> Honestly though Commonwealth Stadium would be the only one at present large enough for the World Cup.


Yes, I forgot Stade Saputo. So, that would make 5 grass stadiums over 10,000 seats in Canada. You're correct that Commonwealth is the only one large enough for a WC, but Canada certainly seems to be moving in the right direction. A few years ago, Commonwealth was the only stadium over 10,000 seats with grass.

What is the minimum capacity for a WC host stadium in the preliminary round. Isn't it 25,000? Or is it 40,000? 

I hope the grass remains after the Pan American Games for the Tiger Cats. They're getting a new stadium, but be losing the best sight lines in the league due to the athletics track. Having grass would compensate for that loss somewhat. Ultimately, I'd want the athletics track ripped up after the Games, the field dropped, and the lower tier stands built out and down towards the new playing surface.

Not likely to happen, but maybe the CFL will one day be wealthier enough to be able to afford such things.


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> Yes, I forgot Stade Saputo. So, that would make 5 grass stadiums over 10,000 seats in Canada. You're correct that Commonwealth is the only one large enough for a WC, but Canada certainly seems to be moving in the right direction. A few years ago, Commonwealth was the only stadium over 10,000 seats with grass.
> 
> What is the minimum capacity for a WC host stadium in the preliminary round. Isn't it 25,000? Or is it 40,000?
> 
> I hope the grass remains after the Pan American Games for the Tiger Cats. They're getting a new stadium, but be losing the best sight lines in the league due to the athletics track. Having grass would compensate for that loss somewhat. Ultimately, I'd want the athletics track ripped up after the Games, the field dropped, and the lower tier stands built out and down towards the new playing surface.
> 
> Not likely to happen, but maybe the CFL will one day be wealthier enough to be able to afford such things.


One thing that I heard people from Hamilton talking about is the possibility that the first few rows of the stands could be retractable, that way when the athletic track needs to be used they can be pushed back, but then during events like football, they can be brought out to give the intimate atmosphere. I think that would be a pretty cool solution to the problem. That way you don't lose the money from installing the track, and the field still remains quite usable for other activities if need be.


----------



## isaidso

rmutt said:


> No one in the media is complaining about skiing at Whistler, because Whistler is indeed full of snow.
> 
> But snow _is_ needed in West Vancouver at Cypress Mountain, site of several outdoor sports that do require snow like Snowboarding and Ski Moguls. Looking at the weather forecast, there _is legitimate __concern _about this.
> 
> Here's to hoping things go smoothly. I'm sure Vancouver won't dissapoint.


They're not doing their job properly because they're not making it clear to their viewers that the lack of snow in Vancouver is not affecting the skiing events. The average Joe in Bosnia or China isn't going to know that Whistler and Vancouver have different climates, 2 hours from each other, and at a much higher elevation.

Journalists talking about no snow in Vancouver is fine, but not if they leave their viewers with the assumption that it's jeopardizing the alpine events. Most people just know that the Olympics are in Vancouver and will draw inaccurate conclusions if their media don't clarify things properly. 

Cypress Mountain is a concern, however.


----------



## koolio

isaidso said:


> Sports is sports. People around the world who genuinely love competition and the Olympics will be interested. People from warmer parts of the world with a passing interest in sports will not. It's true that fewer countries compete in the WOG, though. I believe there will only be 80 countries sending teams to Vancouver.
> 
> *How many people do I know that own skates and skis? I live in Canada, and I know only 3 people with skates (myself included), and no one who owns skiis.*


Wow ... really? I don't think that is the norm. I know TONS of people who own skates, skis and snowboards ... too many to count really.


----------



## isaidso

koolio said:


> Wow ... really? I don't think that is the norm. I know TONS of people who own skates, skis and snowboards ... too many to count really.


Really? Depends on your circle of friends, I suppose. I love to skate, as does my sister, so we have skates. The only other person I know with skates is one of my best friends who plays in the gay hockey league.

Skis? 20 years ago, I knew some people who had skis, but not any more. 

A lot of people in Canada are involved in hockey/skating/skiing, but it's also not nearly as universal as many people seem to think it is. Throughout junior high and high school, I never stepped foot in a hockey rink once. I don't think our high school even had a hockey team. Our school and the city I lived in was all about football and basketball.


----------



## rmutt

isaidso said:


> They're not doing their job properly because they're not making it clear to their viewers that the lack of snow in Vancouver is not affecting the skiing events. The average Joe in Bosnia or China isn't going to know that Whistler and Vancouver have different climates, 2 hours from each other, and at a much higher elevation.
> 
> Journalists talking about no snow in Vancouver is fine, but not if they leave their viewers with the assumption that it's jeopardizing the alpine events. Most people just know that the Olympics are in Vancouver and will draw inaccurate conclusions if their media don't clarify things properly.
> 
> Cypress Mountain is a concern, however.


Talk amout splitting hairs... 

The media says dosen't mention Alpine Skiing, but does mention Snowboarding and the other sports hosted at Cypress Mountain. It's people's fault if they add Alpine Skiing to what is being reported and thus bring themselves to false conclusions, not their television's. It's just annoying when the "the media" becomes a scapegoat for something like the _possibility_ of people coming to false conclusion.


----------



## Looking/Up

> *Impressed by rehearsal, not logistics
> *
> 
> They loved the spectacle, if not the logistics of getting in and out of BC Place. People attending the first open dress rehearsal for the Vancouver Olympics opening ceremonies grumbled about the long wait (and walk!) to get into the stadium, and the confusion over how to reach public transit afterward. But as for the show itself, people for the most part had good things to say.
> 
> *"I thought it was visually stunning," said Jordan Grace, 18, of Pitt Meadows, after the 21/2-hour show.
> 
> "It was like Avatar, but it was real," said Robin, 23, an Olympic volunteer. "The effects were amazing."*
> 
> The Globe and Mail has elected not to disclose the contents of the show, but even before the rehearsal was over, details had been revealed on Twitter - including one of the big-name performers, who was at the rehearsal. There were also photos on Flickr.
> 
> The online spilling-of-the-Olympic-beans came despite a plea before the rehearsal from the show's executive producer David Atkins, who implored those attending to keep what they saw confidential.
> 
> While a notice sent to ticket holders warned them to leave cameras at home, cellphones with camera functions were allowed in. Once inside, some people were caught taking photos and warned to stop.
> 
> And there was no truth to warnings from VANOC that people who had bought their tickets through an avenue such as Craigslist would not be allowed in.
> 
> People were told to expect a lengthy wait to get into the stadium, but the long walk around BC Place and beyond was a surprise. A lineup that started at Smithe and Expo (with nary a VANOC volunteer in sight to guide people) moved away from the stadium onto Beatty Street, all the way down to the False Creek seawall, along the seawall to the Plaza of Nations, back up and over to lengthy (but fast-moving) security lines. Ticket holders then faced another 10-minute walk to the stadium. This was a challenge for some people, including those with small children.
> 
> VANOC says the combination of the Games overlay and security overlay make the long walk necessary.
> 
> "With 50,000 more people, they're going to need some better direction," said Jay Bartok of North Vancouver as he left the stadium Monday night. (About 30,000 people were there Monday night; 60,000 are expected for the actual opening ceremony on Friday.)
> 
> Exiting had its own problems. People were upset that VANOC volunteers directed them to the Main Street station, rather than the closer Stadium station. Those who elected to go to Stadium were turned away from the lower entrance next to Costco, told it was "exit only" after events at BC Place and Canada Hockey Place (GM Place), and instructed to go up the hill to the Beatty Street entrance.
> 
> "There was a bit of confusion from the sound of things," said TransLink spokesman Ken Hardie.
> 
> " But it's good that we have this worked out now, so that things can happen as flawlessly as possible when we start to get the really big crowds."
> 
> Mr. Hardie said in future there will be communication between TransLink and VANOC staff so that passengers can be directed to the closest station.
> 
> Still, people were generally good-natured about the logistical challenges, focusing instead on the show.
> 
> *"Fantastic," said Elsie Johnson of Coquitlam. "Beautifully stunning."
> 
> Added granddaughter Trisha Tosh, who will perform in the closing ceremony: "I think it captured Canada's spirit."*


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/impressed-by-rehearsal-not-logistics/article1462382/


----------



## isaidso

rmutt said:


> Talk amout splitting hairs...


It's not splitting hairs when you're being inundated with worried people from all over the world wondering whether major Olympics events might not happen at all. Vancouver hotel staff and Vancouver Olympic PR people certainly aren't finding it a simple 'annoyance' as you put it.


----------



## rmutt

isaidso said:


> It's not splitting hairs when you're being inundated with worried people from all over the world wondering whether major Olympics events might not happen at all. Vancouver hotel staff and Vancouver Olympic PR people certainly aren't finding it a simple 'annoyance' as you put it.


I'm sorry, but I just find it quite a stretch to say that "the media" isn't do its job properly because some people _might _ suddenly start believing that Alpine Skiing at the 2010 Games is in deep trouble because "the media" is reporting Cypress Mountain home of Olympic Snowboarding and other sports has had and may continue to have trouble keeping necessary conditions. Seriously, show me that people are coming to such conclusions. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of that and I'm watching the lead up to these Games very closely.


---edit---

You know what? This is really unnecessary. The Opening Ceremony is tomorrow. Any wide-spread false information, misinterpretation, and ill-achieved conclusions out there, if any, will be put to rest when events go on smoothly this weekend, whether at Whistler or Cypress Mountain. Here's to a great Games ahead.


----------



## isaidso

That's right. Good luck to your nation's athletes over the next 2 weeks.


----------



## koolio

Are there any events tomorrow or is it just the opening ceremony?


----------



## nomarandlee

> *http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/201002...zZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNvbHltcGljdmlsbGE-*
> 
> *Olympic Village: Athletes Impressed, Taxpayers Angry*
> 
> By SEAN GREGORY / VANCOUVER Sean Gregory / Vancouver – Wed Feb 10, 6:10 pm ET
> 
> On the eve of the Winter Olympics' opening ceremonies, the waterfront condo complex in Vancouver that is housing more than 2,700 Olympic athletes and team officials is winning almost universal praise from its guests. The suites are, to borrow a favorite snowboarding phrase, sweet, with marble-top counters in the shiny new kitchens. Each unit has a living-room area - a far cry from the dormlike conditions of Villages past. And the views are nothing short of breathtaking. *Many apartments look out onto an inlet and the silver downtown skyline, with snowcapped mountains as a backdrop. "It's blown us away, to be honest," *says U.S. speedskater Chad Hedrick, who won gold, silver and bronze medals at the 2006 Winter Olympics in Turin, Italy, and is a medal contender this year. "They really went big on this. It's a million-dollar view, for sure." (See 25 Winter Olympic athletes to watch.)
> 
> Paid for, thank you very much, by the taxpayers of Vancouver. More than any other project in recent Olympic history, the $1 billion residential complex represents the risks that urban governments face when trying to host one of the world's biggest parties. The city planned to invest about $47 million in the project back in 2006. However, cost overruns and the recession forced Vancouver to step in and bail out the private developers who were charged with financing the project. The city avoided the humiliation of welcoming the world with a half-built Olympic Village, but at a great price: in early 2009, new Vancouver mayor Gregor Robertson declared that taxpayers were "on the hook" for the $1 billion project. "What ended up happening was that the city became a bank for private-sector development," says Mark Cutler, director of Olympic Village Development for the Vancouver Organizing Committee, the body that is operating the complex during the Games. (See what becomes of Olympic stadiums.)
> 
> The city could recoup its investment if the developer sells enough million-dollar condos to Vancouver residents after the Olympics are over. That may have been a reasonable expectation in the real estate go-go days. *Yes, the digs are nice, and the development has won kudos from environmentalists for the energy-efficient design of the complex, which has green roofs and will reuse rainwater, and for its easy access to public transportation*. Metro Vancouver housing prices have rebounded from the worst recession lulls - year-over-year condo prices were up 15% in January - but it's still not the best time to be betting on real estate. "Things could still be peachy and wonderful," says Chris Shaw, an ophthalmology professor at the University of British Columbia and a vocal Olympic critic. "But they might not be. The whole Village fiasco leaves the city with fairly dangerous exposure."
> 
> So even on the eve of the opening ceremonies, a moment when most host cities are glowing with pride, many residents are rankled. "People are ferociously upset about the Village," says Shaw. The spectacle has created a cruel irony: as the Olympic athletes enjoy the good life - free food, spacious rooms - in a taxpayer-financed housing complex, just a few blocks away sits Vancouver's Downtown Eastside neighborhood, site of some of the most acute poverty in North America. Homeless people and drug addicts hole up in back alleys; one church alone shelters 300 people on any given night. The neighborhood also hosts the first supervised heroin-injection location in North America. "For the city to let that occur while building the Village - that's the height of irresponsibility," says Shaw. Vancouver has set aside 250 of the 1,100 Village units for low-income residents, though some people fear that the city will be forced to put even those on the market to refill its coffers. (Watch a video on how ski jumpers train.)
> 
> Within the Village walls, the athletes remain blissfully unaware of the social cost that is enabling their Olympic experience, and potential success. They gather in a lounge called the Living Room, a roomy, restored-wood building with a warm, ski-resort feel. Three figure skaters from Great Britain are playing video games in the corner, and when they're asked about life in the Village, they sparkle like they've just landed a triple lutz. "It's amazing," says David King, a pairs skater. "We have the best view ever. The big bay windows are massive." Jenna McCorkell, another skater, chimes in, "It's strange, coming into the Olympics, you don't know what to expect. The rooms are everything and better." Rave reviews from the Olympians, for sure. But the taxpayers of Vancouver may sharply disagree.


..


----------



## isaidso

^^ That story could have been written about every Olympic village ever constructed. The argument that the money shouldn't have been spent because there is poverty in Vancouver is a non-starter. It's really the same tired argument that we shouldn't spend anything beyond the basics until all social ills are solved first. The Olympic village needed to be built and it's smart that they built units that will be very marketable after the athletes go home. How would they have recouped their money if they had built dorm rooms? 

People will buy these! If the market isn't right in March, they can wait a year and sell them then. Lots of people want to live in Vancouver, the value of these condos isn't going to evaporate any time soon.

The guy they keep quoting named Shaw isn't even an expert in this field. He's a doctor of ophthalmology, a branch of medicine which deals with the diseases and surgery of the visual pathways. They could have plucked any old person off the street and asked him what they thought. His views hold no more weight than a clerk at a doughnut shop.



koolio said:


> Are there any events tomorrow or is it just the opening ceremony?


There is an event that takes place before the opening ceremony, but I can't remember what it is.


----------



## Oceano

"Russian House" from inside:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=259180&p=1&sort=1&cid=1

(1:20 - 11:47)

And Opening:


----------



## Mo Rush

Don't think the ceremony is being broadcaster in South Africa.

What time does it start GMT?


----------



## Athinaios

^^
12:30 AM GMT I guess, in NBC begins at 7:30PM (Eastern Time)


----------



## isaidso

CTV started broadcasting at 6:00AM EST and has 14 hours + of coverage today leading up to the opening ceremony @ 8:45PM EST. I imagine the time stated by that US broadcaster is when their 'show' starts while the Canadian network is stating when the actual ceremony starts.


----------



## Zao821

*Olympic luger Nodar Kumaritashvili dies after crash* 
*
The death of a luge competitor who left the track at high speed has cast a shadow over the Winter Olympics in Canada ahead of the opening ceremony.*


































That track is really dangerous , and that concrete column :/ who designed it ???


----------



## Oceano

Where are any boards between these columns and track? hno:


----------



## Spoolmak

Yea no shit, someone needs to get on that and build a wall between the track and the columns... it was only a matter of time... truly heart breaking


----------



## Looking/Up

Very tragic!


----------



## Athinaios

poor guy  The one who designed this track should go to jail :/ between track and those columns should have been some kind of protection...


----------



## Leonesmd

Where can i see the openning ceremony on line?.


----------



## nautica17

Tragedy that had been waiting to happen... two people prior to him during training already fell out of the track didn't they?


----------



## Aka

It's a terrible shame that this had to happen. Poor guy.

At least it should make you think twice when you easily bash poorer countries while (or before) they're hosting an international competition. S*** can happen anywhere.


----------



## ryebreadraz

nautica17 said:


> Tragedy that had been waiting to happen... two people prior to him during training already fell out of the track didn't they?


There had been falls, but I think the dangerousness of the track is being overstated because of this death, which is terrible. Yes, the track is extremely fast and difficult, but this man went off the track and hit an unpadded pole. If there had been padding on the pole, the man may still be alive right now. It seems to me that the things like outside track padding is the biggest source of danger here, not the track itself. Luge is a dangerous sport and people will crash and get hurt. That's just a fact and the athletes have accepted this. There's no reason they should be hitting poles though.


----------



## Trelawny

The opening Cermony is amazing!!!


----------



## Athinaios

^^ Indeed ! the floor is a big screen like in Beijing  I'm surprised that parade of nations was on the beginning...and still I can't find any signs on where can be the cauldron...


----------



## city_thing

Much much better than Beijing's opening ceremony. It's been very good so far, especially the references to innuit/eskimo (which one is the pc term??) culture.


----------



## Aka

ryebreadraz said:


> There had been falls, but I think the dangerousness of the track is being overstated because of this death, which is terrible. Yes, the track is extremely fast and difficult, but this man went off the track and hit an unpadded pole. If there had been padding on the pole, the man may still be alive right now. It seems to me that the things like outside track padding is the biggest source of danger here, not the track itself. Luge is a dangerous sport and people will crash and get hurt. That's just a fact and the athletes have accepted this. There's no reason they should be hitting poles though.


You're first saying that the dangeroussness of the track is being overstated but after that you admit that the track design is dangerous? I'm afraid to say that those poles are also part of the track, the same way a stadium is not just made of a field of grass.



> *Whistler luge track must be modified, track designer Udo Gurgel says*
> _From correspondents in Whistler,
> Canada February 13, 2010_
> 
> *The mastermind of the 2010 Olympic Winter Games luge track at Whistler, where Nodar Kumaritashvili crashed and died, says safety modifications must me made following the tragedy.*
> 
> "This is terrible and shocking news," Udo Gurgel was quoted as saying by the online edition of German sports daily Sport Bild.
> 
> "We have developed six Olympic tracks and nobody ever came off the course."
> 
> Gurgel said the horrific death of Kumaritashvili, 21, meant changes had to be contemplated.
> 
> "We now have to consider how we can alter the piste," he said.
> 
> "At the exit area, we could increase the height of the walls by some 40-50cm."
> 
> Some racers - including from host nation Canada - said in recent days that the course at Whistler Sliding Center was too fast.
> 
> And organisers had issued a press release headlined "Fast sport on ice prepares for fastest track in the world".
> 
> source


Is this guy even serious? Imagine if bridges or buildings designers think this way.


----------



## Looking/Up

city_thing said:


> Much much better than Beijing's opening ceremony. It's been very good so far, especially the references to innuit/eskimo (which one is the pc term??) culture.


Inuit 

I'm glad you are enjoying it!


----------



## ryebreadraz

Aka said:


> You're first saying that the dangeroussness of the track is being overstated but after that you admit that the track design is dangerous? I'm afraid to say that those poles are also part of the track, the same way a stadium is not just made of a field of grass.


That's exactly what I'm saying. Every track is dangerous. The sport is dangerous. That's just the nature of the sport. I don't think this track is as dangerous as many have made it out to be. If a player ran into the wall separating the fans from the field, you wouldn't call the stadium dangerous. You'd wonder why a wall so close to the endline wasn't padded. It's too easily fixed to blame the design and I think that is the case here. Every sliding track is dangerous, but the pole could too easily be made safer to blame on the track. This goes on the organizers.


----------



## Athinaios

Wow, the cauldron is really exceptional ! And we are waitin' to another outdoor cauldron to be lighted


----------



## Shezan

really afraid for that guy :no:


----------



## rmutt

Upset about the indoor cauldron malfunction... rest of the ceremony was amazing though!


----------



## Looking/Up

Don't blame us for not getting the torch up on time. Canadians invented insulin, not viagra


----------



## boyerling3

Looking/Up said:


> Don't blame us for not getting the torch up on time. Canadians invented insulin, not viagra


HA! :lol: Still was a fantastic opening. My team will still (hopefully) beat yours though. USA all the way!


----------



## koolio

Really, really sad about the track death. Someone should be seriously reprimanded for failing to take the safety precautions. Those exposed poles, in hindsight, looks like instant death waiting to happen. Don't know how anyone missed it. 

That really soured my mood for the entire Olympics but I did manage to enjoy the opening ceremony. It was really well done in my opinion. My only gripe is that Terry Fox was not mentioned as well. Can't argue about the choice of Wayne Gretzky being the primary torch lighter though. Greatest Canadian athlete ever ... just a natural choice.


----------



## rmutt

Looking/Up said:


> Don't blame us for not getting the torch up on time. Canadians invented insulin, not viagra


Funny thing is that this cauldron lighting was designed by David Atkins... the same Aussie who was in charge of the Sydney 2000 Ceremonies... where there was also a cauldron malfunction. 

...Don't trust Aussies with your cauldrons. :cheers:


----------



## swifty78

Lol with the cauldron, yeh the Sydney one bit jammed up lol


----------



## tibor420

Id just like to say to those that said that if the pole was padded the luger would be alive... that is just not the case.

Going 160 km/h to 0 would shatter the human body no matter the amount of padding...... yes its a tragedy and could have been prevented through the original design... but that solution is ridiculous and would never work.


----------



## aaronaugi1

Fantastic ceremony. It was the best I have ever seen.

Had the technological brilliance of Beijing but the heart of Sydney and Barcelona.

Good luck Vancouver.


----------



## Looking/Up

Matthew Lowry said:


> Apart from the National anthem of Canada and Olympic anthem which was crap becouse is was English and French WHEN YOU SING SONGS YOU NEED TO CHOSE 1 language NOT 2


... That's ridiculous. Canada is a bilingual country and of course it will be sung in both official languages out of respect for our history and people. As well, the languages of the Olympics is English and French.


I'm glad you enjoyed the opening ceremony.


----------



## Lord David

He still ranks Atlanta in the top 10, it was a mess! It was terrible! With only a few highlights that would be considered good, but overall a mess.

The national anthem of Canada was, as I stated before, just sung by the wrong person and in the wrong style.

The Olympic anthem was good, sung in it's Operatic style and the bilingual singing didn't bother me (aside from the fact that it could have been sung in both languages in full).


----------



## parcdesprinces




----------



## -Corey-

Matthew Lowry said:


> Apart from the National anthem of Canada and Olympic anthem which was crap becouse is was English and French WHEN YOU SING SONGS YOU NEED TO CHOSE 1 language NOT 2
> 
> Apart from that it was good
> OPENING CEREMONY RANK 1 TO 17 FROM 1980 TO 2010
> 01 2010 VANCOUVER
> 02 2000 SYDNEY
> 03 2004 ATHENS
> 04 1984 LA
> 05 2002 SALT LAKE CITY
> 06 1992 BARCELONA
> 07 1994 LILLEHAMMER
> 08 1996 ATLANTA
> 09 1992 ALBERTVILLE
> 10 2006 TURINO
> 11 1988 SEOUL
> 12 1980 MOSCOW
> 13 1988 CALGARY
> 14 1984 SARAJEVO
> 15 1998 NAGANO
> 16 1998 LAKE PLACID
> 17 2008 BEIJING


Beijing the worst? Lol you're drunk. 

My rank would be this from 2000 to 2010, because i didn't watched the other openings. 
1. Beijing
2. Vancouver
3. Athens
4. Sydney
5. Turin
6. Salt Lake City


----------



## Mo Rush




----------



## Yrmom247

Lord David said:


> Are you serious? Atlanta has got to be the *WORST* Opening (and Closing Ceremony for that matter) Ceremony ever (well, of recent ceremonies at the least)! It was constraint by the limitations of the "Centennial Olympic Stadium", had segments strung together poorly and had a poor production team.
> Who can ever forget Stevie Wonder's rendition of Imagine, by John Lennon (which was good) only to be followed by Happy Birthday to ya. Augh!
> 
> Where's Barcelona? Wasn't it Barcelona that raised the bar for Ceremonies? And what about Albertville? They produced a unique and spectacular Ceremonies with their acrobatics.
> 
> Vancouver was good, but it couldn't possibly be the best Opening Ceremony ever (well to date, naturally).


Atlanta's opening ceremony was about Atlanta's heritage. If you're not from Atlanta, its difficult to understand. I quite liked Atlanta's. Especially seeing all those trumpeters lining the roof of the stadium. Having said that, the problems that Vancouver is having remind me of Atlanta 1996.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Update (for "posterity" :banana :lol: :


----------



## Yrmom247

Oh and for the record, there are places in FL colder than Vancouver currently.


----------



## $upr£m€

:banana:


----------



## swifty78

I didnt really like Athens opening much, sure the lake in the middle was nice but the timeline segment showing the history of Greece seemed it was just for tv only and not the ppl in the stadium. I loved in Beijing how they had all them dudes moving the blocks in the middle in perfect sync.


----------



## glenntoy15

in what part did athens have a technical malfunction at the cauldron part? i think oc of athens have successfully performed the whole opening and closing ceremonies.


----------



## -Corey-

NBC is again counting the medals by total and not by gold lol.


----------



## Lord David

Yrmom247 said:


> Atlanta's opening ceremony was about Atlanta's heritage. If you're not from Atlanta, its difficult to understand. I quite liked Atlanta's. Especially seeing all those trumpeters lining the roof of the stadium. Having said that, the problems that Vancouver is having remind me of Atlanta 1996.


Yes, we understand that, but it seemed poorly strung together what with the made up call to the nations with the so called "Olympic Spirits", then you got some segments as a homage to Atlanta's history, a few too many marching bands, and a Ancient Olympic segment honoring the Ancient games and so forth. Having a ramp instead of athletes coming from ground level was unique, but poor organization coupled with a slight steepness caused the parade of nations to go out of whack.

The poor design of the Centennial stadium, didn't help.

The closing ceremony was worse.


----------



## rmutt

-Corey- said:


> NBC is again counting the medals by total and not by gold lol.


Well as there is no official way to count the medals nor does any one country "win" the Games, they can do that.


----------



## Looking/Up

Many people/organizations count by medals, not solely how many gold.


----------



## Livno80101

Jakov Fak :banana: bronze medal for Croatia yesterday, in biathlon :banana:

opening ceremony was great, really great, best Winter Games opening, and it's the first time that is held on stadium with no track


----------



## parcdesprinces

Looking/Up said:


> Many people/organizations count by medals, not solely how many gold.



Counting by number of gold medals is traditionally used by the IOC and by most of people/broadcatsers outside US....


----------



## thun

^^
True. But it doesn't make much sense as well (although its better than counting the total). A perfectly fair method would be to give three points for gold, two for silver and one for bronze and finally count the points. This would put a country with 7 silver medals atop of one with one gold.

Switzerland is doing really good atm, 2 more gold (Defago on men's downhill and in cross-country skiing). :applause:


----------



## bigbossman

^^ no gold is worth far more than 50% more than silver. If anything it should be 4-2-1

I must say snowboard cross is my new favourite sport!!


----------



## Its AlL gUUd

^^ Yep, tis a great sport isn't it? just been watching it on BBC 3 :yes:


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ One more medal for France....


----------



## ryebreadraz

I love snowboardcross and I one met Seth Wescott. He was a really cool dude and he spent a ton of time talking to a group of little kid snowboarders. I like seeing good guys like that succeed and the fact that he's American just makes it better!


----------



## Kenni

-Corey- said:


> NBC is again counting the medals by total and not by gold lol.


How convenient! :lol:


----------



## Yrmom247

I am thoroughly dissatisfied with this Olympics so far. I understand there are some issues that are out of our control like problems with the lack of snow, but there are Zambonis here in Tampa can do a better job than those in Vancouver.


----------



## boyerling3

Total medals is definitely more important. Of course the US would have more golds if you French hadn't stolen a couple from under our noses.


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Stolen ? :lol:

A couple ?? :nono: (especially biathlon one, the US biathlon team is sooo strong :lol

anyway, If wishes were horses...............


----------



## isaidso

I'm still giddy over the moguls gold for Canada. The whole damn country has gone ballistic. I've never seen people so deliriously happy in all my life.

I can't count how many times I've gotten teary eyed from what's transpired. I'm only just coming slightly closer back down to earth now and he won it on Sunday! You won't be able to wipe the smiles off people's faces in this country for a very very long time. 

Thank you, Alex Bilodeau, you've brought a huge amount of joy to millions of people in this country. :hug:


----------



## parcdesprinces

France just won its 7th medal (a silver one) :banana: !!!!!!


----------



## Oceano

This is going crazy already :nuts: .
Russia - 4th place, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th,...


----------



## koolio

Don't be disappointed. There is a very good chance that Evgeni grabs the gold tomorrow.


----------



## isaidso

koolio said:


> Don't be disappointed. There is a very good chance that Evgeni grabs the gold tomorrow.



I don't know, Evan Lysacek skated brilliantly and is only 0.55 points back.


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

Nikki Yanofsky singing the National Anthem of Canada gives *ME* the goosebumps. Despite what other people say, I think it's one of the better renditions I've ever heard! (I'm just not much a fan of the French bit)






Amazing.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

That was my first time hearing the notorious rendition, and I think the vocals were cute but the acompanyment seemed a bit off, like it was intended for a more traditional version; a bit flat.


----------



## -Corey-

Kenni said:


> How convenient! :lol:


Haha i know, they were counting the total by gold when the US was ahead but now Germany is winning.


----------



## ASTANA-2020

First Olympic National Russian Federation suffers complete failure in the winter Olympic Games! Very not like this to Northern power...
19 place in race for leadership Nations!!!


----------



## isaidso

Kenni said:


> How convenient! :lol:


Canadian networks historically count by totals as well.


----------



## Oceano

ASTANA-2020 said:


> First Olympic National Russian Federation suffers complete failure in the winter Olympic Games! Very not like this to Northern power...
> 19 place in race for leadership Nations!!!


!!! and? Wait for the end of OG. Austria and Norway also have low results in the beginning. These damn 4th places..

Russia 8-2 Latvia. Good start for Ovechkin&Co :cheers: .


----------



## isaidso

Yeah, I expect Russia to start climbing up the tables over the remainder of the games. I don't think they'll be top 3 though.


----------



## Capital78

*PETRA MAJDIČ SLOVENIA!*

Unbelievable story of Slovene athlete. From Hell to Golden Bronze! Heroic!


----------



## Oceano

Another 4th place.. Just like in the worst nightmare.. What a lack of luck..


----------



## Capital78

TINA MAZE SLOVENIA! SILVER MEDAL!


----------



## Capital78

TINA aMAZEing!

I FEEL sLOVEnia!


----------



## koolio

Oceano said:


> Legkov. 4th.
> Skobrev. 4th.
> 
> Eight 4th places already. Nice hno: ...
> + another "north american" absurd in judging sphere (remember 2002?) - 2nd place of Plushenko, which by many opinions of experts "killing figure skating because now skater can become Olympic Champion without four-houps, just dancing on the ice"..


Drop this "North American" crap please ... not only is it ridiculous sour grapes, it does not even make sense considering the judges are from different countries, with only two being from North America.


----------



## xlchris

Nice  3rd gold medal for NL! We love ice skating. Looking forward to 10km.


----------



## boyerling3

Capital78 said:


> TINA aMAZEing!
> 
> I FEEL sLOVEnia!


Nice job Slovenia! For some reason I cheer for you guys but only to come in after the Americans. Did anybody else watch the USA destroy Canada in hockey tonight?


----------



## isaidso

boyerling3 said:


> Nice job Slovenia! For some reason I cheer for you guys but only to come in after the Americans. Did anybody else watch the USA destroy Canada in hockey tonight?


Yeah, Canada is pretty dejected right now. It seems that the Americans are returning the favour when Canada beat them in Salt Lake City. At least Canada can still win the gold. They've just made the road to gold longer and harder.


----------



## isaidso

Yay, gold for Canada!


----------



## Looking/Up

Tomorrow. Canada vs. Russia. Epic.


----------



## isaidso

Looking/Up said:


> Tomorrow. Canada vs. Russia. Epic.


Oh dear. This is just like last time. :|


----------



## koolio

I have a good feeling with Luongo in the net ... still scared that Crosby hasn't gotten going because we are DEFINITELY going to need him tomorrow. You can bet your ass that Ovechkin is going to show up. Ovie is gonna do everything possible to keep Crosby from one-upping him once more after last year's playoffs series.


----------



## xlchris

The mistake made by coach Kemkers (coach of Dutch ice skater Sven Kramer) is the talk of the day. How could he make such a stupid mistake?? Sven actually set an Olympic Record and won that gold medal... To bad this happenned.


----------



## isaidso

That's horrible for the Dutch.


----------



## boyerling3

I definitely feel a bit sorry for Kramer. Good luck Canadians against the Russians, we hope to see you in the men's final.


----------



## Matthew Lowry

Winter sports is very CRAZY
this is the best OLYMPIC GAMES EVER


----------



## Capital78

TINA MAZE - SILVER MEDAL!


----------



## isaidso

Canada certainly seems to be picking up steam as the Olympics wind down. The goal of most medals won't be met due to so many medal favourites not converting rankings into medals, but Canada has a good shot at grabbing the most golds. Canada is tied with the United States and Germany with 8 golds. 

The Canadian women won the gold medal in hockey. Now it's time for the men to do the same. First up Slovakia. There's possibly a double gold in curling (men's and women's), 3 short track events tomorrow, 4 man bobsled, and some odds and ends.

Canada could easily have been at 9 golds and the lead already. Men's aerials had Kyle Nissen in 1st place by 6 points. He only needed 122 points on his second jump to win gold. He's very capable of scores beyond that, but couldn't do it.


----------



## -Corey-

Wow Canada is doing great this time.


----------



## isaidso

-Corey- said:


> Wow Canada is doing great this time.


We finished 3rd in total medals last time in Turin, just one medal behind the United States. Canada was expected to finish 3rd at the very worst this time around and it looks likely that 3rd is where Canada will finish if one ranks by total medals. 

Regardless, we'll take it and aim for most golds instead. Could Canada get to 11 or 12 golds? We're now tied with Germany with 9 golds. There's still a curling gold medal game, men's hockey, etc. The heavy gold medal favourite women's pursuit team just bowed out in the quarter finals, but it's still very doable.


----------



## eMKay

Oceano said:


> Legkov. 4th.
> Skobrev. 4th.
> 
> Eight 4th places already. Nice hno: ...
> + another "north american" absurd in judging sphere (remember 2002?) - 2nd place of Plushenko, which by many opinions of experts "killing figure skating because now skater can become Olympic Champion without four-houps, just dancing on the ice"..


You're kidding right? The problem in 2002 was Russian bribes! And the problem in 2010 is Plushenko strutting around the ice like he already won the gold in between his jumps. It's figure skating, not a jumping competition. And Lysacek can do quads, but he broke his foot last year and it's not completely healed. So not only did he beat Plushenko without a quad, he did it with a bum foot.


----------



## isaidso

Yay, we're in 1st place by golds. :cheer:








* 10 - 7 - 4*







* 9 - 11 - 7*







* 8 - 13 - 13*







* 8 - 6 - 6*







* 6 - 6 - 2*


----------



## Oceano

eMKay said:


> You're kidding right? The problem in 2002 was Russian bribes!


No, you are kidding. In 2002 our pair won competition. So there was no reason for Russia to change anything. But of course there was created a hysteria around it in media, and under pressure, they gave second gold medal. Why so stupid? The problem is not always in others, sometimes it's in you.


----------



## Capital78

On February 26 it was announced that PETRA MAJDIČ and Joannie Rochette are the two Olympians to receive the prestiougs Terry Fox award, the purpose of which is to honour Olympian, who touched world with courage, humility and extraordinary athletic abilities at 2010 Winter Games.


----------



## Looking/Up

Both very deserving


----------



## dacrio

first gold medal for italy with razzoli.
bad olympic games for us


----------



## DHLawrence

Oceano said:


> No, you are kidding. In 2002 our pair won competition. So there was no reason for Russia to change anything. But of course there was created a hysteria around it in media, and under pressure, they gave second gold medal. Why so stupid? The problem is not always in others, sometimes it's in you.


Then I guess that French judge received a ban from Olympic judging for no reason. To be fair, it was the French Olympic team that suggested the bribe, not the Russian team.

The Russians fell during their routine. The Canadians didn't. We earned our gold in 2002, just like we've earned them this year.


----------



## ryebreadraz

At least one feat of history will be made tomorrow, maybe two. The United States is currently tied with 2002 Germany for the most total medals ever at a Winter Games and they will surpass it with either gold or silver in hockey tomorrow. Canada is tied for the most golds in a single Winter Games and if their hockey team wins tomorrow, they'll have that record all to themselves.


----------



## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> Yeah, Canada is pretty dejected right now. It seems that the Americans are returning the favour when Canada beat them in Salt Lake City. At least Canada can still win the gold. They've just made the road to gold longer and harder.


I have a feeling Canada were keeping their cards close to their chests that game...they probably anticipated both themselves and the USA would meet again in the gold medal game, so they didn't want to show their hand.

I've got a _reaaaaalllllllly_ bad feeling the 'Nucks are gonna come out with a vengeance. What Ryan Miller faced in the group matchup will be junior-level play compared to what they're gonna throw at him tomorrow.

EDIT: Oh, and big ups to Jesse Lumsden for repping you guys on the bobsledding team. Hopefully his Olympic training has built up his durability to where he can go a full 18-game season.


----------



## Livno80101

Capital78 said:


> On February 26 it was announced that PETRA MAJDIČ and Joannie Rochette are the two Olympians to receive the prestiougs Terry Fox award, the purpose of which is to honour Olympian, who touched world with courage, humility and extraordinary athletic abilities at 2010 Winter Games.


Petra made greatest result in Vancouver, really deserving this great award


----------



## boyerling3

Stupid Canadians,
good job.


----------



## Inferious

great job canadians in hockey.


----------



## JYDA

Incredible game! Incredible performance from both teams!!


----------



## Looking/Up

Looking forward to the closing ceremonies in 20 minutes!


----------



## Junkie

Congratulations Canada for such a nice Olympic games!


----------



## KingmanIII

Incredible game between the United States and Canada to close things out. Disappointed that the final result did not favor us but nonetheless proud of our display of resilience and resolve facing one of the more talented squads to have taken the Olympic ice in quite some time. Props to Canada for being gracious hosts and classy in victory. I had my doubts, but I think Vancouver, ultimately, put on a great show.


----------



## Naipesky

Vancouver was a totally canadian party, haha. Every place hosting an event like that dream with it.

Abount the cerimonies, why there is so many asian-descendents? I dont know, but they are Vancouver's people?

I hope that the Russians can do a great party too, the 1st games after the new russia.


----------



## Skybean

Naipesky said:


> Abount the cerimonies, why there is so many asian-descendents? I dont know, but they are Vancouver's people?


----------



## eMKay

Great job Vancouver, great job Canadian olympic team! All time high in gold medals!!! I could not bear to watch the hockey game, just couldn't do it. I went skiing instead, and checked in in the lift rides. Broke my heart when Canada scored, I wanted a US gold medal in hockey more than anything (except a Sabres cup or Bills Superbowl win). I got one wish though, as long as I have been an olympic fan my favorite event has been 4 man bobsled, and WE FINALLY WON!!! And to top it off, one of the team is from Buffalo!

So we have 3 medals from Buffalo athletes

Steve Mesler GOLD! 4 man bobsled
Patrick Kane SILVER! Mens hockey
Brooks Orpik SILVER! Mens hockey

And congrats to team USA! 37 medals, a winter olympics record, for any country.


----------



## Naipesky

^^ 
^^ Thanks, i "wiki" it, interesting know that Canada have millions of asian decents. (Anyway, few people know that american countries like Peru or Brazil have it too)

Hey, more a bit and the great ending cerimony surpasses the opening, haha.


----------



## plph56

Well done Canada, on winning the most gold but more importantly on a great Winter Games.


----------



## JYDA

As proud as I am of the gold medal record, it's important to remember that new sports keep getting added to the Winter Olympics so there's more medals to be won each time.


----------



## Andre_idol

Great work Canadians!

The Olympics were amazing! :cheers:


----------



## JYDA

what did people think of the closing ceremony? A lot of it tonge in cheek in cheek and had me stitches


----------



## thun

JYDA said:


> As proud as I am of the gold medal record, it's important to remember that new sports keep getting added to the Winter Olympics so there's more medals to be won each time.


The only reason you were able to get so many medals is that other traditionally strong nations like Italy, France, Austria and most of all Russia were very weak in Vancouver. Germany (which was the most successful nation in Turin) got more medals than in 2006 but is 4 golds behind Canada on the second place in the nations ranking.

I think that - compared to Turin - there were only 6 medals (in the 2 ski-cross events) more in Vancouver, wasn't it?


----------



## Matthew Lowry

Ive been partying hard in Vancouver Shame im leveing canada at the end of the paralympics after a 1 year working hoilyday
I LOVE CANADA. PEOPLE FROM CANADA YOUR THE BEST. THANK YOU.
I WANT TO MOVE TO CANADA FOR EVER.

2020 TORONTO, CANADA

My top 15 best closing ceremony
01 2010 Vancouver
02 2006 Turino
03 1984 Los Angeles
04 1988 Seoul
05 2004 Athens
06 2000 Sydney
07 2002 Salt Lake City
08 1980 Moscow
09 1992 Barcelona
10 1998 Nanago
11 1994 Lillehammer
12 2008 Beijing
13 1992 Albertville
14 1988 Calgary
15 1996 Atlanta


----------



## isaidso

plph56 said:


> Well done Canada, on winning the most gold but more importantly on a great Winter Games.





Andre_idol said:


> Great work Canadians!
> 
> The Olympics were amazing! :cheers:


Thank you to both of you!!!



thun said:


> The only reason you were able to get so many medals is that other traditionally strong nations like Italy, France, Austria and most of all Russia were very weak in Vancouver. Germany (which was the most successful nation in Turin) got more medals than in 2006 but is 4 golds behind Canada on the second place in the nations ranking.
> 
> I think that - compared to Turin - there were only 6 medals (in the 2 ski-cross events) more in Vancouver, wasn't it?


Canada has been a stronger winter sports nation than either Italy or France for quite some time now. Canada was as strong as Austria and Russia in Turin and continued to get stronger from then up till now. Austria and Russia went the other way. Canada only won 2 more medals this time around, but it was far more weighted towards gold. 

*Italy, France, Austria, Russia, and Canada in Turin with ranking:*

*3. AUSTRIA* 9 7 7 (23 medals)
*4. RUSSIA* 8 6 8 (22 medals)
*5. CANADA* 7 10 7 (24 medals)
*9. ITALY* 5 0 6 (11 medals)
*10. FRANCE* 3 2 4 (9 medals)

*Italy, France, Austria, Russia, and Canada in Vancouver with ranking:*

*1. CANADA* 14 7 5 (26 medals)
*9. AUSTRIA* 4 6 6 (16 medals)
*11. RUSSIA* 3 5 7 (15 medals)
*12. FRANCE* 2 3 6 (11 medals)
*16. ITALY* 1 1 3 (5 medals)


----------



## thun

^^
You didn't get my point. I mean that Canada and the USA were only able to win so many (gold) medals because other nations which are normally strong (but not necessarily stonger ) didn't win as many medals as the last time. In Vancouver the top nations were dominating the medal score way more than in Turin were more nations won more medals. As your list shows, Austria, Italy and Russia together won 20 medals more in Turin than in Vancouver. Canda and especially the USA were able to take quite a share of them. I doubt that it would have been possible for the USA to reach a new record in total medals otherwise.
E. g. the 10 medals Austria has won less than in Turin (14 vs. 4 if I'm correct) have to go to the medal count of other nations (e. g. to Germany, Norway, Slowenia, USA).


----------



## isaidso

Well of course. To win more medals, someone has to win fewer unless the number of medals up for grabs increases significantly.


----------



## xlchris

Dutch Olympic athletes arrived back in NL. They will go to the city Haarlem and will be welcomed by thousands of Dutch people  Watch Live


----------



## isaidso

Thanks for the link. I could only watch a few of those videos, but it was interesting, nonetheless.


----------



## bigbossman

this was the worst olympics this decade... and also the best 

That is until the big dog enters the arena, bring on LONDON!!!!!!!!


----------



## JYDA

thun said:


> ^^
> You didn't get my point. I mean that Canada and the USA were only able to win so many (gold) medals because other nations which are normally strong (but not necessarily stonger ) didn't win as many medals as the last time. In Vancouver the top nations were dominating the medal score way more than in Turin were more nations won more medals. As your list shows, Austria, Italy and Russia together won 20 medals more in Turin than in Vancouver. Canda and especially the USA were able to take quite a share of them. I doubt that it would have been possible for the USA to reach a new record in total medals otherwise.
> E. g. the 10 medals Austria has won less than in Turin (14 vs. 4 if I'm correct) have to go to the medal count of other nations (e. g. to Germany, Norway, Slowenia, USA).


Your logic assumes those countries got worse. Ever consider the idea that maybe Canada and the USA got better??? Canada pumped more money into our athletes than ever before. Massive funds were pumped into the athletes to improve their abilities to a new level. Our athletes improved to a point of surpassing other athletes in certain events. That doesn't mean those other athletes got worse. Their competition was just stronger this time.


----------



## isaidso

bigbossman said:


> this was the worst olympics this decade... and also the best
> 
> That is until the big dog enters the arena, bring on LONDON!!!!!!!!


We shall see. An athlete dying is always horrible, but from day 2 onwards the Games were nothing short of transformational for the Canadian nation. The Hudson's Bay tag line was so appropriate: 'We Were Made For This.' 

Centuries old self doubt and timidity got washed away for good during those 2 weeks and a confident proud nation erupted to the surface. London may not suffer the misfortune of tragedy, but it will never accomplish for its people what these games have done for Canada. 

Good luck with them though. Big dog?


----------



## ale26

I'm a proud Canadian and I thought these olympics were amongst one of the best however one thing absolutely shocked and disgusted me, and that was....The Closing Ceremonies

Those, by far, were THE WORST ceremonies ever performed on earth. Period. 
I dare anyone to challenge me on this because I will bet that the majority of people, especially non-Canadians would have found them embarrassing and childish 

Other than that, good job Canada!


----------



## JYDA

ale26 said:


> I'm a proud Canadian and I thought these olympics were amongst one of the best however one thing absolutely shocked and disgusted me, and that was....The Closing Ceremonies
> 
> Those, by far, were THE WORST ceremonies ever performed on earth. Period.
> I dare anyone to challenge me on this because I will bet that the majority of people, especially non-Canadians would have found them embarrassing and childish
> 
> Other than that, good job Canada!


If you're too thick to realize the whole thing was tonge in cheek self deprecation then you're likely to think that.


----------



## ExSydney

The Closing Ceremonies were great.Obviously some Canadians dont like looking at themselves and are embarrassed about their own stereotypes,but thats their problem.Get over it.If people outside your borders think you live in igloos in the acrtic tundra,then so what...laugh about it.The rest of the world wouldve loved the comedic value of the show...What I and many didnt like was this "own the podium" slogan.Just those words reek of arrogance not normally associated with Canadians.There is no issue with me have a successful Olympics with a stack of Gold,but surely they couldve came up with a better slogan.


----------



## thun

JYDA said:


> Your logic assumes those countries got worse. Ever consider the idea that maybe Canada and the USA got better??? Canada pumped more money into our athletes than ever before. Massive funds were pumped into the athletes to improve their abilities to a new level. Our athletes improved to a point of surpassing other athletes in certain events. That doesn't mean those other athletes got worse. Their competition was just stronger this time.


I never said that others became worse in competition (or about the athletic quality of the games at all) but simply that the larger number of medals won by the USA and Canada have to come from somewhere (especially if we take into consideration that the ski cross competitions (whcih were afaik the only new competitions compared to Turin) weren't exactly dominated by those two countries). If one wins, someone else has too loose. It's not rocket science.

On the level of your argumentation, one might say that it's not only the stronger athletic quality of the Canadian team which helped them to top but a massive home field advance. I wouldn't dare to do so, though.


----------



## thun

How weird is the commentator of the youtube videos of the official Vancouver 2010 Youtube channel? Stange attempt to combine emotional distance, objectiveness and enthusiasm. hno:

Look e. g. here:




By far the worst commentator I've ever came across. :dunno:


----------



## isaidso

I was about to say. The IOC pulls that stuff down as quick as you can get it up.


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

Gold :banana:


----------



## koolio

How come none of the videos work for me?


----------



## htpwn

How much is the seating capacity supposed to be for the new Sask. stadium?


----------



## Walbanger

> That would save on maintenance. The grass would cut itself


:lol:Gold:cheers:


----------



## markstolz

> Some key reasons why the Thomson family would be key to a successful Winnipeg franchise:
> 
> * First one is a no-brainer, very deep pockets.
> * Major influence for corporate support out of Toronto, home to many Winnipeg business headquarters.
> * Endless television and other media support. Afterall, he does own TSN and CTV among many other outlets. Winnipeg would have ample and prime network positioning.
> * Top notch marketing capabilities of the "Jets" brand all over the world.
> * Respect among NHL brass, something Mark Chipman has maintained from day one.
> * *Complete control of MTS Centre and the land it sits on, which generates obscene amounts of money through concerts, other sports and other events.*
> 
> Imagine having the deepest pockets in all of professional sports here in the smallest market of all professional sports. Wow.
> 
> When Don Cherry said a Winnipeg team would be the most successful team and one "everyone could be proud of", he was right. It is ironic to think that a city that nobody thought could be part of the NHL again might just be the Cinderella story of the NHL very soon.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZFF-ZxWOI


Seems like the NHL has "A Deal In Principle" to move the Coyotes back to Winnipeg.

Anyone know how quickly they can upgrade/renovate the MTS Centre up to NHL standards? Before the Sonics moved to Oklahoma City, the Hornets played there for a season but the Ford Center had to upgrade the lighting and sound. Once the move was permanent they spent $120 million to renovate, expand and build a practice facility. Hopefully they can do the same and be able to relocate in the off-season.


----------



## Nate

htpwn said:


> How much is the seating capacity supposed to be for the new Sask. stadium?


The first proposal (which I like more) is 33,000 expandable to 45,000 or so for larger events such as the Grey Cup.

As for the second proposal... it's sort of backed by a rich American Native group (the Seminoles) and also Saskatchewan Native groups (but they want control of the Casino in Regina which generates a profit of about 35 mill a year for the province. 

Someone asked, and the second project also has a large hotel/casino attached.

As for the area, currently there is a CP railyard between downtown and the old warehouse district. This rail yard is in the process of possibly being moved near the new transportation hub outside the city by the airport. This plot of land is the proposed site of the stadium... so given the location I like the first option better as it blends downtown and the warehouse district better and would, in my opinion, provide a better link between the two.

Also, the first one proposed through a study funded by the feds, province, city, and Roughriders, is estimated to cost just above 400 mill for everything (site prep/land, stadium, furniture and other misc stuff inside the stadium, as well as the surrounding grounds).

The second proposal is extimated at 1.2 billion between the hotel/casino complex and stadium.

Both mentioned are retractable domes.


----------



## BoulderGrad

markstolz said:


> Seems like the NHL has "A Deal In Principle" to move the Coyotes back to Winnipeg.


NHL denies that up and down, but I've never really given press releases much credence:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=5039446

But it may be a moot point as Glendale, AZ approved new lease terms:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=5048927


----------



## htpwn

BoulderGrad said:


> NHL denies that up and down, but I've never really given press releases much credence:
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=5039446
> 
> But it may be a moot point as Glendale, AZ approved new lease terms:
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=5048927


Correct, the NHL did deny that release however it is hardly a moot point as of yet. Glendale agreed on the lease concessions but it still needs to be put up to public vote, survive any possible challenge by the Goldwater Institute, and then the NHL needs to do their usual thing with making sure the owners are approved, have the cash, and can complete the transaction. Glendale agreeing to the lease concessions was a huge step forward to keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix but its not over yet for Winnipeg.


----------



## isaidso

htpwn said:


> How much is the seating capacity supposed to be for the new Sask. stadium?


38,000 expandable to 50,000 seats for big games like The Grey Cup.


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> 38,000 expandable to 50,000 seats for big games like The Grey Cup.


The current plans in the study only call for 33,000 expandable to 45k.

I'm hoping they increase it though... 33k really isnt that much more than we have now (including the temp seating theyve been bringing in the last 2 years... and will be again this year)


----------



## isaidso

Nate said:


> The current plans in the study only call for 33,000 expandable to 45k.
> 
> I'm hoping they increase it though... 33k really isnt that much more than we have now (including the temp seating theyve been bringing in the last 2 years... and will be again this year)


Are both of those designs posted above for a 33,000 seater then? I agree that 33,000 seems too low. Mosaic regularly sells out with a capacity of 30,945. Designing the new stadium with 7,000 more seats isn't excessive and would allow for population growth. I bet a 38,000 seater would sell out the whole first season.


----------



## Lord David

Forget 33,000 or 38,000. How would you propose to upgrade to 50,000? Especially with the roof in place? Could the goal ends potentially have 8,500 seater temporary stands (minimum of course)? Is it possible? Or is there insufficient space?


----------



## isaidso

Lord David said:


> Forget 33,000 or 38,000. How would you propose to upgrade to 50,000? Especially with the roof in place? Could the goal ends potentially have 8,500 seater temporary stands (minimum of course)? Is it possible? Or is there insufficient space?


It looks like they'll be end zone seats.


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> Are both of those designs posted above for a 33,000 seater then? I agree that 33,000 seems too low. Mosaic regularly sells out with a capacity of 30,945. Designing the new stadium with 7,000 more seats isn't excessive and would allow for population growth. I bet a 38,000 seater would sell out the whole first season.


It's just the first that is the expandable one... I think the other design (supported by the native groups, which won't go through due to them requiring the government to sell them the casino, which the gov't won't do) calls for around 50k or a little more seats on a permanent basis.

It's possible that a 38k will sellout first season... but the question is, can the population base maintain the demand for a stadium that size. I think if the Riders keep managing themselves well and compete it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

And you are right about the expansion zone. It is the endzones that have the space for the extra seating.


----------



## sbutlik

*more designs*


----------



## JYDA

The new north stand at BMO Field is finished. The team also had its first training session on the new grass


----------



## isaidso

Capacity is now 24,000?


----------



## JYDA

I believe it's just under 22,000. I forget the exact capacity of the new stand but I know it was less than 2,000


----------



## Benn

Looks about right, would have been cool if they had exteded it over the party suites and get to 23,000-24,000, would have no trouble filling them.


----------



## CanadianSkyScraper

Toronto's home opener 2010








http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4527304574_b170a2c378_b.jpg


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Some more pics of the Molson Stadium expansion in Montreal... the 2nd deck on the south stand is almost done and they are now working on the east end-zone stand.


----------



## isaidso

How hard is it to get tickets to an Alouettes game? I've been wanting to come from Toronto for years now, but know if I just show up, I won't get in. I imagine with the expansion that it will still be sell outs every time. Can you put your name on a waiting list for tickets?

This has possibly the best location of any football stadium in America.


----------



## Nate

Calvin W said:


> Guess I'm enough of a worldly person, to understand that football can have more than one meaning, *and yes MOST Canadians equate football with grid iron first and foremost, but not ALL*. :bash:
> 
> When was the last time you went to a football (soccer) game? Yes there are games even in Saskatchewan, the term football and soccer are both used. Whether people like it or not it is happening, football (soccer) is invading Canada.


I'm also enough of a worldly person to know that Football = soccer also; however, I had a problem with your statement "More than not Canadians do think of soccer as football." I have nothing against the game, but this is completely false. And your bolded statement goes against what you originally said anyway.

And whether or not I go and watch soccer/football games has no bearing on my perception of everyday language used in society. I have nothing against soccer/football at all, in fact I used to play it when I was younger, but let's be realistic on the use of the term. The highschools call them soccer teams, the news when it talks about the high schools or university team say soccer, the associations in Regina use soccer in their names, and when I lived in Saskatoon it was soccer as well. Sure people know that Football can also mean soccer (in other places in the world), but doing so here will only cause someone confusion until you tell them soccer or mention certain aspects/terms for the game you are referring to that would make it obvious like goalkeeper.

Soccer definitely has the most child-participation in Canada as far as sports go, and has for a number of years; however, it is still just viewed as a fun/cheap activity for kids. If it were taken more seriously Canada wouldn't be ranked behind so many countries with much smaller populations in FIFA. Maybe it'll slowly change and we'll eventually have parents supporting more intense leagues/schedules like Hockey has... but we definitely aren't there yet.

But anyway, the topic is about development, not the most appropriate language/vocabulary so this discussion as a part of this thread should probably die, and if it is that pressing, continued in a new thread.


----------



## Calvin W

Nate not going to get in a pissing match with you, so be it. Don't lump all Saskatchewanians as being Rider fans and I won't say the majority of Canadians think of Football as soccer. 

If you want to pick at the fine points, well bring it on, otherwise this is the last response from me.

NEW TOPIC

Canada hasn't submitted a bid for the World Cup 2018 or 2022, so how about 2026? Plenty of time to build some new stadiums, or renovate others? Might give a boost to stadiums in the Maritimes?
10 host cities across Canada all with a minmum of 40,000 capacity, the CFL would drool over the thoughts.


----------



## Lord David

^^ I wouldn't be surprised if Canada posts a bid for 2026 should Australia (or unlikely another Asian bid) gets 2022. They won't face the competition from a Chinese bid, but may face competition from their neighbour, the US and possibly Mexico.

Canada can easily provide a bid as follows:

Existing, no upgrades:
- BC Place (Vancouver - British Columbia) - 60,000 
- Skydome (Toronto - Ontario) - 46,374 to 50,000
- New Winnipeg Stadium (Winnipeg - Manitoba) - 45,000

Existing, minor upgrades:
- Stade Olympique (Montreal - Quebec) - 66,308
- New Roughriders Stadium (Regina - Saskatchewan) - 50,000

Existing, major upgrades:
- Commonwealth Stadium (Edmonton - Alberta) - 70,000
- McMahon Stadium (Calgary - Alberta) - 50,000
- Pan American Stadium (Hamilton - Ontario - Athletics Track) - 45,000
- Frank Clair Stadium (Ottawa - Ontario) - 45,000
- Moncton Stadium (Moncton - New Brunswick - Athletics Track) - 40,000
- BMO Field (Toronto - Ontario) - 40,000

New Stadiums:
- Toronto Stadium (Toronto - Ontario, convertible, from Athletics to all kinds of Football, thanks to movable seats on the lower tier) - 80,000
- Halifax Stadium (Halifax - Nova Scotia - Athletics Track, down-sizable) - 45,000
- Quebec City Stadium (Quebec City - Quebec - down-sizable) - 40,000

All upgraded existing stadiums may be downsized with the exception of Edmonton and Toronto's BMO field.

Toronto will host the final, Montreal will host the opener. Toronto may get that post legacy as a potential Olympic Stadium and definite NFL stadium (for a Toronto franchise).

Three stadiums at most will have an athletics track, the rest will be rectangular based. All stadiums will be fitted with natural grass in preparation for the event. The CFL season will be slightly modified to permit the laying of grass prior to the World Cup.

One could expect that the 2 smaller Toronto venues be removed in favor for more regional cities involved in the bid. All other Provincial capitals and Territorial capitals will provide venues for training purposes.

Canada may present a strong bid, the CFL will more than welcome the new stadiums offered so it can expand it's league, lasting legacy is with the odd occasional International Soccer game and MLS game. However, they might just face stiff competition from the US and Mexico and the national side's track record isn't exactly good.


----------



## Alx-D

Lord David said:


> Snip* However, they might just face stiff competition from the US and Mexico and the national side's track record isn't exactly good.


The time between the start of the bid process and the start of the awarded WC is about 10 years normally. This time they are doing a double shot for 2018 and 2022 (so Sepp can get a few more bribes before he retires) so the winner of the 2022 bid would have roughly 14 years from the start of the bid process until the start of the games. That's an entire generation of players. If you put the resources into it you could easily improve your squad's quality to at least World Cup standards in that time frame.


----------



## WpG_GuY

LIVE: Sod turns on new stadium
Today marks 'historic' moment for Bombers, sports community

By: Ed Tait | Winnipeg Free Press

20/05/2010 1:00 AM | Comments: 0



A piece of sod gets turned, a ribbon is cut, politicians and heavy hitters smile for the cameras.

And -- most importantly for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers -- a financial lifeline starts to become reality.

It's ceremonial to be sure, but today's scheduled sod-turning for the new football stadium at the corner of Chancellor Matheson Road and University Crescent is a significant day in the Bombers' 80-year existence and for the local sporting community.

"It's historic for this franchise," said Bomber president Jim Bell. "We have some certainty now. I can remember back to the various studies that were done all in the best interest of doing the due diligence, but after awhile I think some apathy set in as people wondered if it was ever going to happen.

"But now that we have a sod turning we're actually moving toward the new venue and it's tremendous."

There are the obvious benefits a new facility brings to the football club, to the University of Manitoba Bisons football program and amateur sports. But specifically for the Bombers, the building's 2012 scheduled opening -- construction should begin sometime next month -- couldn't come at a more critical time.

Not only is Canad Inns Stadium antiquated and in constant need of repair, the organization is also coming off a 2009 operating loss of $1.2 million while the possible return of the NHL could mean the football club will be battling to squeeze every dime out of the community and the facility it can.

The new stadium will have 33,000 seats and 40 private suites -- the current facility has a capacity of 29,500 and two suites -- as well as a number of loge boxes (rentable rooms on the suite level) and hospitality areas that will generate many more dollars for the club on game day.

There will be video boards, increased signage both inside and outside the building for potential advertisers, vastly improved concessions and an on-site restaurant that will operate year-round. The current stadium naming rights deal with Canad Inns also expires at the end of this season and revenue from any new deal will also be significant.

"With all due respect to this old stadium, the opportunities are limited here," said Bell. "The new venue really opens it up to potential suitors and those are significant dollars.

"To make money here now we have very little wiggle room. But when you've got suites, primary naming rights, secondary naming rights... it just adds so much more. It gives us a real opportunity to sustain and grow the business."

But with today's announcement also come some meaty questions that need to be answered, especially under the terms of the complicated stadium financing agreement with the club, the governments and David Asper's Creswin Properties.

The Bombers have established a stadium committee to work with Creswin and key among the issues that need to be addressed ASAP is how to continue operating the franchise in one facility while preparing to move into another. After all, the team can't just show up in the spring of 2012 and move into the new joint -- it needs to be marketed well in advance of the opening.

What is being discussed now is how to handle that transition -- how many more staff might need to be hired, for example -- and who would pay for it all.

"I call it Project A and Project 1A with what we've got going on at our stadium this year and with the new facility," Bell said. "We have to keep our focus on everything that is involved with the football season, but at the same time we've got to work toward making sure we're meeting deadlines and working with the developer at the new facility."

"This is an immense undertaking," added Asper. "The stadium itself is conceived as a community asset for use by the whole community. The Bombers are large beneficiaries, but so are the Bisons, the University of Manitoba and amateur users... they're all integral to the plan. That's a whole different business.

"(The sod-turning) essentially kicks off what is going to be a very intensive process."

[email protected]


----------



## brewerfan386

^^Neat renderings, good find!:cheers2:



Lord David said:


> New Stadiums:
> - Toronto Stadium (Toronto - Ontario, convertible, from Athletics to all kinds of Football, thanks to movable seats on the lower tier) - 80,000


Do the Blue Jays get a new ballpark then (in this scenario)?epper:


----------



## isaidso

brewerfan386 said:


> Do the Blue Jays get a new ballpark then (in this scenario)?epper:


Toronto will only get a 80,000 seat stadium if they bid for the summer Olympics and win. 

The Blue Jays wouldn't move from Skydome though. They draw only about 25,000/game, so moving to an even more cavernous stadium isn't in the cards. Baseball isn't suited to an athletics stadium anyway due to vastly compromised sight lines. 

What Toronto does need is a proper football stadium because Skydome is really a baseball stadium. Re-configured for football, you can't even see the corner of the end zones from some seats.

The Argonauts, oldest professional football team in America, need a football specific stadium just like the soccer team got a soccer specific facility. BMO is great for soccer in Toronto. Football deserves its own stadium too: 35,000 seats that allows for future expansion later on.


----------



## Lord David

^^ Who says Toronto wouldn't get a new stadium for any prospective World Cup bid? The post legacy would be that of any Olympic Stadium, a new NFL team, most likely.

Such a stadium could be designed as convertible, for greater flexibility and use for an Olympics, which ever comes first.


----------



## isaidso

You are correct. Toronto might get behind an 80,000 seat stadium for a World Cup as well. Soccer is growing like gangbusters in this city. There is a sizable degree of reservation regarding building another large stadium in Toronto though. The Skydome is rarely ever full and it only seats 54,000. It cost half a billion and was sold a few years ago to a local firm for next to nothing. Like it or not, a big new stadium in Toronto would receive significant criticism.

A new 80,000 seat stadium might end up being a white elephant, never to be used again. The NFL arriving here isn't a sure thing, and there are some people who will fight the arrival of a foreign competitor to the domestic football league tooth and nail. I'm one of them. I'll do everything in my power to prevent that league from ever setting up here.

The domestic football league (cultural industry) is open to foreign competition, but Rogers Communications (telecom/cable firm) is protected from foreign competition? I don't think so! How do you spell *L A W S U I T ?* I wonder how fast Rogers will backtrack with their NFL ambitions, if their domestic telecom/cable market is deemed fair game just like Canada's national football league?


----------



## isaidso

What's going on with the $1.2 billion, 55,000 seat retractable roof football stadium/casino/hotel proposal in Regina?

A private group involving 10 Saskatchewan First Nations bands and the very successful Seminoles Tribe from Florida (that own the HardRock Casino brand as well as many other entertainment ventures) want to put together a $1.2 billion dollar football stadium/casino/hotel at the same location as the first proposal (the CNR grounds). The concept was designed by renowned architect, Douglas Cardinal. 

*Saskatchewan* * - Canada's Football Heartland*

http://www.djcarchitect.com/portfolio/currentprojects.html


----------



## WpG_GuY

^pipe dream


----------



## isaidso

WpG_GuY said:


> ^pipe dream


Possibly, but unlike the other proposal, this one would be 100% privately funded. Apparently, they have the financing already. If I were Saskatchewan, I'd take the money. Offers like that don't come along very often.


----------



## crazyalex

WpG_GuY said:


> ^pipe dream


^^
+1


----------



## Dimethyltryptamine

Does Regina really need a 55,000 seat stadium (not the best looking one at that)? That's what, a quarter of the city?


----------



## Lord David

Dimethyltryptamine said:


> Does Regina really need a 55,000 seat stadium (not the best looking one at that)? That's what, a quarter of the city?


Not really, but it would most likely be the original proposed capacity of a new stadium of 30,000 to 38,000. Expandable to 50,000 (or in this case 55,000) for major events (such as a Grey Cup, FIFA World Cup or even say a Rugby World Cup).

Considering the increase in maximum capacity, as well as the fully private funding option, I'd support it, even if doesn't get handed to the city for decades and is adjacent to a hotel and casino complex.


----------



## isaidso

Agree, Saskatchewan is football mad, but 55,000 is really pushing it. They'd probably fill it for playoffs and a Grey Cup though. Honestly, I'd want them to get this just to show the rest of Canada how it's done. A small city of 200,000 getting 55,000 out to football? They're the Green Bay of Canada.

*Long Live Rider Nation!*


----------



## Lord David

Well then the answer is simple. build it as 55,000 with say 15,000 removable upper tier seating. Keep it as 55,000 for a full CFL season, see if it fills, and if it's viable to keep it at that capacity, then keep it as such. No need for the expense of removing and putting back temporary seating when necessary.


----------



## isaidso

Lord David said:


> Well then the answer is simple. build it as 55,000 with say 15,000 removable upper tier seating. Keep it as 55,000 for a full CFL season, see if it fills, and if it's viable to keep it at that capacity, then keep it as such. No need for the expense of removing and putting back temporary seating when necessary.


They're getting 31,000 person sell outs in an utterly decrepit stadium sunshine or blizzard. A gorgeous stadium with a big wow factor like this is going to send these people into a frenzy. Whether Regina builds a stadium that's expandable to 45,000, 50,000, or 55,000, I bet they'd open it at the expanded capacity for the first season. The record crowd for a Riders game was 55,438 back in 1995, so they've done it before. Back then it amounted to 29% of the entire metropolitan population. 

Besides, they could easily gauge demand before the stadium opens by selling seasons tickets. They capped their season tickets at 25,000 for 2010, and they were already at 24,600 a few weeks ago. If they get to the 40,000 range with a new stadium, it's a no brainer. You configure it for the expanded capacity, market it like crazy, and hope to get the extra 5,000-15,000 fans/game.


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> They're getting 31,000 person sell outs in an utterly decrepit stadium sunshine or blizzard. A gorgeous stadium with a big wow factor like this is going to send these people into a frenzy. Whether Regina builds a stadium that's expandable to 45,000, 50,000, or 55,000, I bet they'd open it at the expanded capacity for the first season. The record crowd for a Riders game was 55,438 back in 1995, so they've done it before. Back then it amounted to 29% of the entire metropolitan population.
> 
> Besides, they could easily gauge demand before the stadium opens by selling seasons tickets. They capped their season tickets at 25,000 for 2010, and they were already at 24,600 a few weeks ago. If they get to the 40,000 range with a new stadium, it's a no brainer. You configure it for the expanded capacity, market it like crazy, and hope to get the extra 5,000-15,000 fans/game.


I was at that game in 95 and if you are comparing metro area in relation to crowd size, you would have to use the provincial population. I like many thousands of fans drive a long distance to see a game live. 

So 55,000 seats for 1 million population is comparable to what Edmonton?


----------



## brewerfan386

isaidso said:


> The Blue Jays wouldn't move from Skydome though. They draw only about 25,000/game, so moving to an even more cavernous stadium isn't in the cards. Baseball isn't suited to an athletics stadium anyway due to vastly compromised sight lines.


What I was actually wondering, in any hypothetical plan as stated before, would the Jays receive a true baseball ONLY stadium? Since the SkyDome (I refuse to call it the Rogers Centre) will be quite old by the time any such plan would come to reality.


----------



## eMKay

CanadianSkyScraper said:


> independence park jamaica hold 35,000 and looks like......


lol, what a dump.


----------



## eMKay

carnifex2005 said:


> Empire Field is complete. Here's a vid from an open house...


There isn't another stadium in the area they can use? Seems like a waste to build a temporary stadium.

EDIT: I just realized the Lions are using it too right?


----------



## Lord David

14 odd million for what, a 27,000 stadium isn't too bad. Even if it is a temporary one for a mere 2 or so years.

Given the supposed controversy regarding when the Whitecaps' stadium would be built, one wonders why they don't just propose this as the stadium, or simply rebuild it at a fraction of the cost of building at scratch at the waterfront?


----------



## carnifex2005

eMKay said:


> There isn't another stadium in the area they can use? Seems like a waste to build a temporary stadium.
> 
> EDIT: I just realized the Lions are using it too right?


There are no other stadiums in the Vancouver area that can hold more than 8500 people so a temp stadium was the only solution. The Lions will use it 2010. The Whitecaps and Lions will use it for part of 2011 until BC Place is finished.


----------



## carnifex2005

Lord David said:


> 14 odd million for what, a 27,000 stadium isn't too bad. Even if it is a temporary one for a mere 2 or so years.
> 
> Given the supposed controversy regarding when the Whitecaps' stadium would be built, one wonders why they don't just propose this as the stadium, or simply rebuild it at a fraction of the cost of building at scratch at the waterfront?


The Empire Field location is park land and will not be able to be used on a permanent basis. Besides, the Whitecaps would rather be downtown. I doubt that Waterfront will ever happen, especially since Kerfoot owns an awesome location for building the last bit of waterfront property in the city that doesn't hit the port. I think he could make more money building condos and use the proceeds to fund his soccer team playing at BC Place than it would if he did a mixed stadium, residential plan.


----------



## Lord David

^^ Hence the idea of salvaging much of the stadium, and simply having to transport much of the structure, whilst building permanent concrete foundations in the Whitecaps stadium site. Such a thing could easily cost a couple of million, a far cry from say 30 million+ to build a new 15,000 seater from scratch.


----------



## Trelawny

CanadianSkyScraper said:


> independence park jamaica hold 35,000 and looks like......


That stadium held the commonwealth games.


----------



## carnifex2005

Lord David said:


> ^^ Hence the idea of salvaging much of the stadium, and simply having to transport much of the structure, whilst building permanent concrete foundations in the Whitecaps stadium site. Such a thing could easily cost a couple of million, a far cry from say 30 million+ to build a new 15,000 seater from scratch.


The Whitecaps signed a five year lease with BC Place so even if Waterfront happened, they wouldn't be able to move to it until 2016. As well, that stadium isn't owned by the Whitecaps but by PAVCO. Even if they got the materials for a song, the Whitecaps would have to store it for over 5 years. Might as well just start from scratch if for some reason Kerfoot got approval to create the stadium.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

A pic of Empire Field from the pre-season game played there by the BC Lions yesterday.


----------



## Calvin W

Looks good. To bad this couldn't be built in the Maritimes, as a permanent stadium for a team over there.


----------



## raynsity

MegasAlexandros said:


> A pic of Empire Field from the pre-season game played there by the BC Lions yesterday.


The interior of the stadium is not bad, but where are the soccer field lines?

Just wondering, how would the restrooms and the locker rooms look like in a modular stadium like that, does someone have images of them?


----------



## vhricardoebay

In canada people like soccer? 

What is the ranking of favorite sports? Congratulations country is beautiful.

Hugs


----------



## BoulderGrad

vhricardoebay said:


> In canada people like soccer?
> 
> What is the ranking of favorite sports? Congratulations country is beautiful.
> 
> Hugs


Pro Hockey
Major Junior Hockey
Minor League Hockey
Youth Hockey
Football
Soccer
Lacrosse
Beer League Hockey
Baseball


----------



## eMKay

Looking forward to seeing (on tv  ) the first whitecaps game there, I bet the noise will be amazing if the fans get stomping on those metal risers


----------



## eMKay

BoulderGrad said:


> Pro Hockey
> Major Junior Hockey
> Minor League Hockey
> Youth Hockey
> *Curling*
> Football
> Soccer
> Lacrosse
> Beer League Hockey
> Baseball


^^^^ :lol: 
There I fixed it


----------



## Plumber73

vhricardoebay said:


> In canada people like soccer?
> 
> What is the ranking of favorite sports? Congratulations country is beautiful.
> 
> Hugs


People love soccer here, especially in the three largest and more ethnically diverse cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver). In terms of actually playing/participating in, soccer is huge - probably as many people playing the game as do with hockey. Where we lack, is at the pro and national levels. Hockey will always be our number one sport though.


----------



## Plumber73

raynsity said:


> The interior of the stadium is not bad, but where are the soccer field lines?
> 
> Just wondering, how would the restrooms and the locker rooms look like in a modular stadium like that, does someone have images of them?


Seriously, I'd shoot myself if I saw soccer field lines mixed with CFL lines. I'm sure they'll have completely different fake grass for that. As for locker rooms, I think they're using portables. Restrooms, I have no idea.


----------



## Calvin W

Plumber73 said:


> Seriously, I'd shoot myself if I saw soccer field lines mixed with CFL lines. I'm sure they'll have completely different fake grass for that. As for locker rooms, I think they're using portables. Restrooms, I have no idea.


Don't load your gun then. Seperate turf for soccer? Not a chance, not the easiest and quickest to change fields.


----------



## Plumber73

Calvin W said:


> Don't load your gun then. Seperate turf for soccer? Not a chance, not the easiest and quickest to change fields.


Yea, separate turf. They did it in BC Place... of course they will. They should easily be able to do the switch in a few days. Besides, MLS probably wouldn't allow mixed turf now.


----------



## isaidso

vhricardoebay said:


> In canada people like soccer?
> 
> What is the ranking of favorite sports? Congratulations country is beautiful.
> 
> Hugs


Overall, hockey, football, basketball, and baseball are the big 4 Canadian sports. Soccer would come probably next in 5th spot. Popularity varies quite a bit depending on where in Canada you live. 

Soccer has the most support in cities with large immigrant communities like Montréal, Toronto, and Vancouver. In these places, soccer has probably pulled ahead of one or two of those traditional Canadian sports, but still takes a back seat to hockey.


----------



## isaidso

htpwn said:


> Would I be right in making the presumption that this would be built where the street (Devonshire Pl) currently is?


I was wondering about that too. Some of those renders would suggest that the new structure would be built next to Varsity Stadium across the street.



pawel19-87 said:


> Capacity: 20,500 hno:


This isn't Spain or Mexico! Capacity needs to reflect demand for tickets. Demand exceeded expectations, but this is still the largest soccer specific stadium in the country.



Trelawny said:


> National stadium of Canada there it is! Lmao


You do realize that soccer isn't the massive cultural phenomenon in Canada that it is in most other nations? BMO Field isn't Canada's national stadium; we don't have such a concept. It's merely the country's primary stadium for the sport of soccer.

Canada will probably see much larger soccer stadiums getting built going forward, but throughout our history it's only been football and baseball stadiums that were built with large seating capacities. Soccer is still a growing sport in Canada.


----------



## Walbanger

Plumber73 said:


> Yea, separate turf. They did it in BC Place... of course they will. They should easily be able to do the switch in a few days. Besides, *MLS probably wouldn't allow mixed turf now*.


Curiously, who's more powerful, the CFL or MLS. If there was a problem I'd tell MLS to stop bitching and show some respect to a sport which is actually part of the Canadian social fabic. Both teams have to make the best of it while BC Place is being redeveloped.


----------



## Plumber73

Walbanger said:


> Curiously, who's more powerful, the CFL or MLS. If there was a problem I'd tell MLS to stop bitching and show some respect to a sport which is actually part of the Canadian social fabic. Both teams have to make the best of it while BC Place is being redeveloped.


Power has nothing to do with it. The Lions would gladly have the Whitecaps play on a separate surface. Neither league would choose to have a field cluttered with lines from both sports. And frankly, a mixed use field surface (with both sports markings) is so high schoolish, and from the 80s... it looks terrible. These are two pro leagues, they should be able to play on their own surface. Think the Boston Celtics would play on the Boston Bruins ice???


----------



## T74

Calvin W said:


> Don't load your gun then. Seperate turf for soccer? Not a chance, not the easiest and quickest to change fields.


absolutely.

At Etihad Stadium in Melbourne, they can replace the turf in sections because its basically on plates.

This is easier said than done though, its bloody expensive, so the stadium only do it when they really have to.

The stadium has the seating on one wing designed to move in when rugby or soccer is played. This is rarely done though because of the cost of replacing the turf.

The stadium also plays host to AFL and the odd rugby game in winter. The rugby guys are not happy though because AFL is played on a much shorter grass height than rugby. Again, far too expensive to swap the turf.

Being a roofed stadium, they used to have massive issues of loose and dead turf (because of lack of natural light). These have "mostly" been addressed now by mobile sun lamps, because the cost of this equipment is cheaper than the long term cost of changing turf every few months.


----------



## Walbanger

Plumber73 said:


> Power has nothing to do with it. The Lions would gladly have the Whitecaps play on a separate surface. Neither league would choose to have a field cluttered with lines from both sports. And frankly, a mixed use field surface (with both sports markings) is so high schoolish, and from the 80s... it looks terrible. These are two pro leagues, they should be able to play on their own surface. Think the Boston Celtics would play on the Boston Bruins ice???


Sorry mate, I don't mean having the paint of both codes on the field at the same time. Isn't just a matter of repainting during the week or does field turf have field markings which are literally wedged in pieces of carpet?


----------



## Calvin W

T74 said:


> absolutely.
> 
> At Etihad Stadium in Melbourne, they can replace the turf in sections because its basically on plates.
> 
> This is easier said than done though, its bloody expensive, so the stadium only do it when they really have to.
> 
> The stadium has the seating on one wing designed to move in when rugby or soccer is played. This is rarely done though because of the cost of replacing the turf.
> 
> The stadium also plays host to AFL and the odd rugby game in winter. The rugby guys are not happy though because AFL is played on a much shorter grass height than rugby. Again, far too expensive to swap the turf.
> 
> Being a roofed stadium, they used to have massive issues of loose and dead turf (because of lack of natural light). These have "mostly" been addressed now by mobile sun lamps, because the cost of this equipment is cheaper than the long term cost of changing turf every few months.



Never said impossible, just not something easy to do. How much does the CFL, MLS seasons overlap? Can't imagine both teams playing the same weekend at home. Not a chance to play Saturday/Sunday.


----------



## Plumber73

Walbanger said:


> Sorry mate, I don't mean having the paint of both codes on the field at the same time. Isn't just a matter of repainting during the week or does field turf have field markings which are literally wedged in pieces of carpet?


Ewww... repainting? Never even thought of it. Someone way back wondered why there were no soccer lines on the field, and that is what I was discussing. However they want to do it... and if the turf is the new FIFA approved type... I just don't want to see the two markings on it at the same time.


----------



## carnifex2005

Calvin W said:


> Never said impossible, just not something easy to do. How much does the CFL, MLS seasons overlap? Can't imagine both teams playing the same weekend at home. Not a chance to play Saturday/Sunday.


The seasons over lap pretty much perfectly (CFL is June to November, MLS April to October).

Anyways, the field is one piece of turf, the same as the type in Seattle and that turf is getting moved to BC Place when it is done. BC Place is going to use the paint that can easily wash off like they do in Seattle where you barely see any lines after Seahawks games when the Sounders play.


----------



## isaidso

*First Football Game at Expanded Molson Stadium* 

Montreal 31 Toronto 23 in pre season CFL action June 19th. Molson Stadium added a second deck on the south side, while continuing the bowl a little bit around the east end zone. Capacity has increased from 20,202 to 25,012 and cost $29.4 million. The original proposal would have boosted capacity to around 30,000, but NIMBY'S nixed those plans.

Despite the expansion, Molson is still the smallest football stadium in the CFL.









http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/mtl/images/en/newser/2010/06/2010_NEC0013.jpg









http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/mtl/images/en/newser/2010/06/2010_06_19_01_SouthSide0210.jpg


----------



## Walbanger

Plumber73 said:


> *Ewww... repainting? Never even thought of it*. Someone way back wondered why there were no soccer lines on the field, and that is what I was discussing. However they want to do it... and if the turf is the new FIFA approved type... I just don't want to see the two markings on it at the same time.


So they don't paint the white lines on the grass or artificial turf in Canada?
























:dunno:


----------



## Plumber73

Walbanger said:


> So they don't paint the white lines on the grass or artificial turf in Canada?


I've actually used those to line fields, but only on natural grass. All the fake turf I've played on through my years had permanent lines. This is the first time I've ever heard of washing off lines and replacing them with others. You learn something new every day.


----------



## Walbanger

Plumber73 said:


> I've actually used those to line fields, but only on natural grass. All the fake turf I've played on through my years had *permanent lines*. This is the first time I've ever heard of washing off lines and replacing them with others. You learn something new every day.


Oh, I never even considered permanent lines :doh:I just assumed field markings would need constant touch ups. In this case it's me learning something


----------



## isaidso

I'd prefer temporary lines. Having both visible at the same time isn't that appealing. That would probably mean the end of elaborate end zone designs though.


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> I'd prefer temporary lines. Having both visible at the same time isn't that appealing. That would probably mean the end of elaborate end zone designs though.


I don't see why it would. A soccer field just needs to be between 100 and 130 yards long. The CFL field is 110, so a soccer field can fit comfortably within the normal play area without touching the endzones. The endzones can still be elaborate for the CFL clubs, meanwhile something can be laid over top for soccer. It's usually the zone for sponsorship boards anyway.


----------



## isaidso

Soccer field lengths vary? I suppose I've only seen the ones that jut into the end zones because they're longer than 110 yards.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Well, only until recently has there been a move to one single standard field size. For the longest time, FIFA specified a RANGE of acceptable dimensions.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/bodies/media/newsid=707751.html

_Law 1 - The Field of Play
In order to standardize the size of the football pitch for A international matches, the IFAB has decided to set a fixed size of 105m long and 68m wide (instead of a minimum and maximum length - from 100m to 110m - and a minimum and a maximum width - from 64m to 75m - as mentioned in the present text)._


----------



## Alx-D

delete*


----------



## Sonrise

isaidso said:


> *First Football Game at Expanded Molson Stadium*
> 
> Montreal 31 Toronto 23 in pre season CFL action June 19th. Molson Stadium added a second deck on the south side, while continuing the bowl a little bit around the east end zone. Capacity has increased from 20,202 to 25,012 and cost $29.4 million. The original proposal would have boosted capacity to around 30,000, but NIMBY'S nixed those plans.
> 
> Despite the expansion, Molson is still the smallest football stadium in the CFL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/mtl/images/en/newser/2010/06/2010_NEC0013.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/mtl/images/en/newser/2010/06/2010_06_19_01_SouthSide0210.jpg


Since it appears that the track is no longer in use, why hasn't it been ripped out and proper endzone lines put in place? It looks so bush league when the lines are compromised like that.


----------



## Archbishop

Tracks suck.


----------



## Sonrise

Archbishop said:


> Tracks suck.


Couldn't agree more, no football stadium should have a track around the field. Not to mention due to a larger endzone than the NFL, CFL fields with a track have to make ridiculous shapes outta their end zones. Look at the pictures of the end zones of Molson Field, it's embarrassing, especially for the premier team in the league.


----------



## isaidso

^^ Agree. I hope Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton eventually does away with its track. There's also the looming issue in Hamilton. They currently have the best sight lines in pro football, but the new stadium will have a track since its being built for the Pan American Games athletics events. 

They should dig up the track after the Pan Ams, but it doesn't look likely. hno:



Sonrise said:


> Since it appears that the track is no longer in use, why hasn't it been ripped out and proper endzone lines put in place? It looks so bush league when the lines are compromised like that.


It did surprise me that they didn't address that issue when the stadium capacity was increased. The track is of no use any more, so there's no need to cut the corner's of the end zone off like that. I just hope they rectify that obvious irritant.

It would be nice if they painted the end zones too. As this is a university stadium, perhaps just the use of red for McGill (also an Alouette colour) and '1874' in reference to the origins of modern gridiron?

It would be a nice historical reference.


----------



## isaidso

MegasAlexandros said:


> Well, only until recently has there been a move to one single standard field size. For the longest time, FIFA specified a RANGE of acceptable dimensions.
> 
> http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/bodies/media/newsid=707751.html
> 
> _Law 1 - The Field of Play
> In order to standardize the size of the football pitch for A international matches, the IFAB has decided to set a fixed size of 105m long and 68m wide (instead of a minimum and maximum length - from 100m to 110m - and a minimum and a maximum width - from 64m to 75m - as mentioned in the present text)._


Thanks for the link. At 100 m, a soccer field is just below the length of a football field (110 yards). At 105 m, it becomes problematic as it juts into the end zone.

100 m = 109.361 yards (perfect!)
105 m = 114.829 yards :gaah:


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> Thanks for the link. At 100 m, a soccer field is just below the length of a football field (110 yards). At 105 m, it becomes problematic as it juts into the end zone.
> 
> 100 m = 109.361 yards (perfect!)
> 105 m = 114.829 yards :gaah:


And what is the problem with going in to the endzone? CFL fields are actually 150 yards in total length so more than enough room for a soccer field. In fact it would be nice to have the soccer field LONGER to be near endzone seats.


----------



## htpwn

It appears the Hamilton Tiger Cats may be at the end of the road if the City Of Hamilton doesn't change its mind where the new Pan Am stadium would be built:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/could-tiger-cats-skip-town/article1627358/



> “I got several calls from mayors and leaders of municipalities that wanted an intro to Scott and Bob, which I did,” said Hamilton businessman Ron Foxcroft, a significant player on the city's sports and business scene. “I will not say who they are because I would be betraying confidence. But that's that truth.”





> Pan-Am Games chief executive officer Ian Troop has said having the stadium in Hamilton makes no sense without the Tiger-Cats involved. And yet the Tiger-Cats, who desperately need a new home because of the decay at Ivor Wynne Stadium, insist that the city's preferred location in the West Harbour doesn't make financial sense to them.


Oakville (Pop. 170,000), Mississauga (Pop. 704,000), and Burlington (Pop. 200,000) are the rumored muncipalities that have reportedly contacted the Tiger-Cats and Pan Am Commitee.


----------



## koolio

How about they build a new stadium in York University and give it to the Argonauts. The end result will be the same in that a CFL franchise will benefit from it. The Ti-Cats can stay in Ivor Wynne.


----------



## carnifex2005

koolio said:


> How about they build a new stadium in York University and give it to the Argonauts. The end result will be the same in that a CFL franchise will benefit from it. The Ti-Cats can stay in Ivor Wynne.


They already tried that but the Argos queered the deal with York, Soccer Canada and TFC when the Skydome offered them free rent. That is why BMO is built where it is and why TFC is now making money hand over fist while the Argos are now whining about playing in the Skydome where they now have to pay rent again after the original deal with Ted Rogers expired.


----------



## isaidso

carnifex2005 said:


> They already tried that but the Argos *queered* the deal with York


Queered? As in spoiled/ruined? Queer used in that sense is derogatory and not acceptable language. It also runs contrary to SSC rules/regulations.

hno:


----------



## carnifex2005

isaidso said:


> Queered? As in spoiled/ruined? Queer used in that sense is derogatory and not acceptable language. It also runs contrary to SSC rules/regulations.
> 
> hno:


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/queered

queered, queer·ing, queers Slang
1. To ruin or thwart: "might try to queer the Games with anything from troop movements . . . to a bomb attack" (Newsweek).
2. To put (someone) in a bad position.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/queered

Main Entry: 2queer
Function: transitive verb
Date: circa 1812

1 : to spoil the effect or success of <queer one's plans>
2 : to put or get into an embarrassing or disadvantageous situation


English your second language?


----------



## isaidso

carnifex2005 said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/queered
> 
> queered, queer·ing, queers Slang
> 1. To ruin or thwart: "might try to queer the Games with anything from troop movements . . . to a bomb attack" (Newsweek).
> 2. To put (someone) in a bad position.
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/queered
> 
> Main Entry: 2queer
> Function: transitive verb
> Date: circa 1812
> 
> 1 : to spoil the effect or success of <queer one's plans>
> 2 : to put or get into an embarrassing or disadvantageous situation
> 
> 
> English your second language?



*** is in the dictionary too, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate language. Using the word 'queer' to mean something negative isn't acceptable in this day and age. Use your head. That Newsweek used that language is disgraceful. That's hardly behaviour to be emulated. This is 2010, not 1970.

I won't even dignify that last comment with a reply. 

I would suggest reading SSC guidelines before shooting your mouth off. All I sought was for you to be a little more respectful of others. I asked really nicely, but that doesn't seem to have worked. All I got was a rude reply. 10 posts in and already causing trouble? 

I've been at SSC a long time. Trust me, I doubt they'll tolerate this kind of thing.


----------



## isaidso

*Stade Moncton* * - Canadian Junior Track and Field Championships and World Championships Trials* 

The IAAF World Junior Championships will be held at this newly built stadium in 17 days. It's also the site of the Touchdown Atlantic game, a Toronto Argonauts and Edmonton Eskimos football matchup. The entire 20,200 seats available sold out in just a few hours!









Courtesy of the Moncton Times & Transcript


----------



## isaidso

*BC Place* * - from Southeast False Creek* 









 Taken by SFUVancouver, June 30th, 2010.

* - from Robson Street* 









 Taken by SFUVancouver, June 30th, 2010.

* - from the Vancouver Lookout* 









 Taken by SFUVancouver, June 30th, 2010.

* - half zoom* 









 Taken by SFUVancouver, June 30th, 2010.

* - full zoom* 









 Taken by SFUVancouver, June 30th, 2010.


----------



## Luke80

isaidso said:


> *** is in the dictionary too, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate language. Using the word 'queer' to mean something negative isn't acceptable in this day and age. Use your head. That Newsweek used that language is disgraceful. That's hardly behaviour to be emulated. This is 2010, not 1970.
> 
> I won't even dignify that last comment with a reply.
> 
> I would suggest reading SSC guidelines before shooting your mouth off. All I sought was for you to be a little more respectful of others. I asked really nicely, but that doesn't seem to have worked. All I got was a rude reply. 10 posts in and already causing trouble?
> 
> I've been at SSC a long time. Trust me, *I doubt they'll tolerate this kind of thing*.


Then leave it to 'them' to decide... (And in the mean time, get over it) :lol: :nuts:

Anyway, back on topic, how are the plans for Calgary's new arena going?


----------



## isaidso

Luke80 said:


> Then leave it to 'them' to decide... (And in the mean time, get over it) :lol: :nuts:


Quite right. Makes me cringe, but they can do what they want. If people want to use expressions like 'jew someone down' or 'queered', I'll just ignore them. :runaway:

Calgary arena? That's not even on the radar. Quebec City, Hamilton, and Edmonton will get arenas before Calgary does. Whatever they do, I hope they keep the name Saddledome, and the distinctive roof shape. An arena with capacity around 24,000 would be nice. I think that's about the limit a hockey arena can go before the last rows are too far from the ice.


----------



## Luke80

isaidso said:


> Quite right. Makes me cringe, but they can do what they want. If people want to use expressions like 'jew someone down' or 'queered', I'll just ignore them. :runaway:
> 
> Calgary arena? That's not even on the radar. Quebec City, Hamilton, and Edmonton will get arenas before Calgary does. Whatever they do, I hope they keep the name Saddledome, and the distinctive roof shape. An arena with capacity around 24,000 would be nice. I think that's about the limit a hockey arena can go before the last rows are too far from the ice.


Yeah you should.

I was only enquiring because I'm sure I've read rumblings about it 'needing' to e replaced. My personal opinion is that the Saddledome has a nice appeal to it but if the Flames remain average to successful then they could probably fill 22-24,000.


----------



## htpwn

isaidso said:


> Quite right. Makes me cringe, but they can do what they want. If people want to use expressions like 'jew someone down' or 'queered', I'll just ignore them. :runaway:
> 
> Calgary arena? That's not even on the radar. Quebec City, Hamilton, and Edmonton will get arenas before Calgary does. Whatever they do, I hope they keep the name Saddledome, and *the distinctive roof shape.* An arena with capacity around 24,000 would be nice. I think that's about the limit a hockey arena can go before the last rows are too far from the ice.


Probably won't as it probably makes for very crappy acoustics.


----------



## Alx-D

isaidso said:


> Quite right. Makes me cringe, but they can do what they want. If people want to use expressions like 'jew someone down' or 'queered', I'll just ignore them. :runaway:


You're comparing apples to oranges here. "Queered" is proper english, and it was used in proper context by the poster. It's similar to "Retard", which can be offensive when used in the context of the disabled, or it could simply mean to turn down/delay/hold back, as in "Retard the timing on your engine". Comparing "*****" to "Queered" is grasping at straws. You need to calm down and get over it.


----------



## isaidso

Alx-D said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges here.


Disagree completely. It's a word that had proper context in the past, but like most things, the optics of it has changed over time. 'Jew someone down' and 'queered' both make me cringe. I know what a cringe feels like. And it's not proper English at all. It's considered slang. 

I've already addressed this issue and moved on, so you need to calm down and get over it.


----------



## isaidso

Luke80 said:


> I was only enquiring because I'm sure I've read rumblings about it 'needing' to e replaced. My personal opinion is that the Saddledome has a nice appeal to it but if the Flames remain average to successful then they could probably fill 22-24,000.


I did a search a few days ago on that very subject, but couldn't find any articles, chatter, etc. about a new Calgary arena. 

Regarding capacity, I've wondered why certain Canadian cities don't build larger arenas since they seem to sell out all the time. Distance from the ice is an issue, but there are basketball arenas as big as 24,000 and the court is quite a bit smaller than the NHL ice surface.

Then there are all those big event games played in football stadiums that draw 40,000-60,000 people out to watch hockey/basketball. Surely, hockey arenas in Canada can get a little bigger than the ~21,000 capacity arenas like the Bell Centre? Calgary could surely fill an arena quite a bit larger than 21,000.

I like this Quebec City arena model a lot, but wish new arenas would spend a little more money and build roofs that aren't so claustrophobic. If they arched the roofs up a little more it would create a far airier feel inside these buildings. We're even seeing translucent roof proposal for some football stadiums. It's a design element I'd welcome in Canadians arenas.

*Quebec City arena model*








http://monblogue.branchez-vous.com/images/bloge_a_marcel/9245 MAQUETTE COLISEE.jpg


----------



## isaidso

htpwn said:


> Probably won't as it probably makes for very crappy acoustics.


Never thought about that, but they could easily solve that issue by making it flat on the inside.


----------



## carnifex2005

isaidso said:


> Disagree completely. It's a word that had proper context in the past, but like most things, the optics of it has changed over time. 'Jew someone down' and 'queered' both make me cringe. I know what a cringe feels like. And it's not proper English at all. It's considered slang.
> 
> I've already addressed this issue and moved on, so you need to calm down and get over it.


Sorry, you're a moron. Yeah, I went there. You've obviously been shown to be wrong, no one agrees with you, yet you stubbornly refuse to apologize for slandering me and the words I used. Next time, keep your opinions to yourself.


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> Never thought about that, but they could easily solve that issue by making it flat on the inside.


So all the effort to make a saddle on the outside just for show? HAHAHAHA.

Even a flat roof is not ideal for accoustics. A barrel vault like most arenas makes for the best sounds concert wise.


----------



## Lord David

Concerts are held in stadiums and arenas for sheer capacity. If you want good acoustics, then you go to a concert held at a concert hall.

That being said, having it flat on the inside would look terrible, it doesn't improve acoustics, so you might as well have the internal version of the roof design outside.


----------



## PrevaricationComplex

any news on the pan am stadium in toronto, i hear cfl teams generally are poverty stricken when it comes to stadiums and that one could make good use of one post games. if so heres your template courtesy of the other code and the mickey mouse olympics...





































reds call it alot of things, personally i refer to it as social housing for the mentally ill. but still, decent idea, no? kinda like our version of the atlanta stadium. dunno what the cap requirements are for the pan am games or what the hamilton football team need but id image it would be a little easier for canadian football because end zone seats are less valued?


----------



## Sonrise

isaidso said:


> *Stade Moncton* * - Canadian Junior Track and Field Championships and World Championships Trials*
> 
> The IAAF World Junior Championships will be held at this newly built stadium in 17 days. It's also the site of the Touchdown Atlantic game, a Toronto Argonauts and Edmonton Eskimos football matchup. The entire 20,200 seats available sold out in just a few hours!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of the Moncton Times & Transcript


The commish should insist that they remove the track if the want a CFL expansion team; as I've stated previously it looks so bush league for the 2nd most popular football league in the world to allow tracks around their field. Is this brand new stadium gonna have a ridiculously shaped endzone as well? hno:


----------



## Walbanger

Sonrise said:


> The commish should insist that they remove the track if the want a CFL expansion team; as I've stated previously it looks so bush league for the *2nd most popular football league in the world* to allow tracks around their field. Is this brand new stadium gonna have a ridiculously shaped endzone as well? hno:


Where did you pull that one from? 
Maybe the CFL is the second most attended Football league in North America. There are a couple of Leagues overseas infront of the CFL and generate far more revenue.

As for Bush league, isn't Moncton bush league compared to other CFL cities. Shouldn't Halifax be looked at more favorably is they were to build a suitable stadium?

What about Quebec City, do they like there Canadian Football up there?

When you say "ridiculously shaped enzones" do you mean tapered or angles corners like at Molson Stadium?
Obviously it's tradition but does Canadian Football really need such deed endzones?
Rugby Union has traditional dimensions of 20m deep ingoal areas (endzones) but they are rarely seen and the game is in no way damaged or worse off for having 8m to 10m deep ingoal areas. It would help satify ground sharing with soccer.


----------



## Jim856796

I'm afraid Ottawa needs a brand-new stadium to replace Frank Clair Stadium. Ever since the lower tier of its south stand was demolished in 2008, the stadium looks like it needs replacing with a new facility.


----------



## Bobby3

I'd like to see Canada play a World Cup qualifier in Moncton, that'd be great. Do any of you think the maritimes would bring a good crowd to a national team game?


----------



## Commandant

Much better than this:


----------



## isaidso

Bobby3 said:


> I'd like to see Canada play a World Cup qualifier in Moncton, that'd be great. Do any of you think the maritimes would bring a good crowd to a national team game?


They're starved for sports. Halifax or Moncton would have no problem getting a 20,000+ crowd for a soccer qualifier.


----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> So all the effort to make a saddle on the outside just for show? HAHAHAHA.


It is a symbol of Calgary. What lengths we go to depends on what value we place on design/architecture in our society. It's a mistake that everything must be purely utilitarian.



PrevaricationComplex said:


> any news on the pan am stadium in toronto....
> 
> ....dunno what the cap requirements are for the pan am games or what the hamilton football team need but id image it would be a little easier for canadian football because end zone seats are less valued?


The Pan Am stadium is actually going to Hamiton. The city and Games Committee wants the downtown West Harbour site on the waterfront, while the Tiger-Cats owner wants a stadium out in the middle of nowhere next to a highway. Post #1889 above shows the West Harbour tour video.




Sonrise said:


> The commish should insist that they remove the track if the want a CFL expansion team; as I've stated previously it looks so bush league for the 2nd most popular football league in the world to allow tracks around their field. Is this brand new stadium gonna have a ridiculously shaped endzone as well? hno:


Agree that the track has to go if they get a franchise. We'll have to wait till the Toronto Argonaut - Edmonton Eskimos game next month to see how they've expanded the Moncton stadium to 22,000.


----------



## isaidso

Walbanger said:


> As for Bush league, isn't Moncton bush league compared to other CFL cities. Shouldn't Halifax be looked at more favorably is they were to build a suitable stadium?
> 
> What about Quebec City, do they like there Canadian Football up there?
> 
> When you say "ridiculously shaped enzones" do you mean tapered or angles corners like at Molson Stadium?
> Obviously it's tradition but does Canadian Football really need such deed endzones?
> Rugby Union has traditional dimensions of 20m deep ingoal areas (endzones) but they are rarely seen and the game is in no way damaged or worse off for having 8m to 10m deep ingoal areas. It would help satify ground sharing with soccer.


Moncton (126,000) is a very small city even by Canadian standards. Halifax (400,000) is the more logical place for the league to expand to, but eventually both Nova Scotia (940,000) *and* New Brunswick (760,000) should be able to support a team. Both provinces are geographically small so a team in either city would be easy to travel to by residents throughout their respective provinces.

Canadian end zones used to be 25 yards deep and have already been reduced to 20 yards. Reducing them further just isn't in the cards. This is a sport and league where passing is prevalent. Reducing the depth of the end zone would greatly hamper the touchdown scoring frequency in the league and the offensive nature of Canadian football.

I'm not familiar with rugby, but don't you just have to cross the line to score making the depth of the 'end zone' irrelevant?


----------



## Commandant

Hamilton changes course on Pan Am stadium project
August 31, 2010

Donovan Vincent

Despite voting earlier this month to build a new Pan Am stadium in the West Harbour, Hamilton council reversed course Tuesday and passed a motion calling for the city to look into building at the Longwood and Aberdeen location.

The vote officially clears an impasse between the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the city over the proposed site for the 2015 Pan Am stadium, which would be turned over to the football team after the Games end.

Staff at Hamilton city hall will sit down with the team for an intensive evaluation of the west end site, which is owned by McMaster University, Hamilton councillor Bob Bratina said in a telephone interview.

He said the site was supposed to be used to house firms involved in innovation, but that hasn’t really happened.

“Innovation Park hasn’t been fulfilling its mandate … so they’re probably just as happy to look at alternatives to the (prescribed) land use,” Bratina added.

City staff was told by council to come back with a report on the site, or any other viable properties, by Sept. 15.

Council’s change in direction came after Pan Am representatives met last week with city officials to tell them that without a legacy tenant taking over the city’s West Harbour site, Pan Am organizers would only fund a stadium of about 5,000 seats.

On Monday, Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young released a statement saying the Aberdeen/Longwood site presents “essential sports stadium requirements’’ such as its proximity to Highway 403.


----------



## Lord David

Bobby3 said:


> I'd like to see Canada play a World Cup qualifier in Moncton, that'd be great. Do any of you think the maritimes would bring a good crowd to a national team game?


I'd put Moncton as a potential WC stadium (assuming one is willing to upgrade to 40,000) for a potential Canadian WC bid (assuming the US don't get 2022, which of course Australia will). The track will remain.

Add Quebec City and Halifax as the other 2 stadiums to go with existing venues around the country.

Toronto will host the final and perhaps opening game in a new 80,000 seater stadium.


----------



## Weebie

Canada has stadiums?


----------



## Jackie003

Weebie said:


> Canada has stadiums?


It looks like it's troll season. Please do not feed the troll.


----------



## Calvin W

Weebie said:


> Canada has stadiums?


Yuphno:


----------



## Welkin

Lord David said:


> I'd put Moncton as a potential WC stadium (assuming one is willing to upgrade to 40,000) for a potential Canadian WC bid (assuming the US don't get 2022, which of course Australia will). The track will remain.
> 
> Add Quebec City and Halifax as the other 2 stadiums to go with existing venues around the country.
> 
> Toronto will host the final and perhaps opening game in a new 80,000 seater stadium.


As much as I would love to see the World Cup in Canada, it is never going to happen. There are far to many countries, where soccer is a real passion, that would kill to host the WC to let Canada host the world's biggest sporting stage. You would see Brazil host the IIHF World Championship (ice hockey world cup) before you would see Canada hosting the World Cup.


----------



## JYDA

Welkin said:


> As much as I would love to see the World Cup in Canada, it is never going to happen. There are far to many countries, where soccer is a real passion, that would kill to host the WC to let Canada host the world's biggest sporting stage. You would see Brazil host the IIHF World Championship (ice hockey world cup) before you would see Canada hosting the World Cup.


If soccer being a "real passion" of a country is a prerequisite for getting the tournament then Australia and the United States would not be front runners for 2022.


----------



## Nate

JYDA said:


> If soccer being a "real passion" of a country is a prerequisite for getting the tournament then Australia and the United States would not be front runners for 2022.


It does alright in Australia, and both the national teams are of decent strength... Canada definitely doesn't measure up at all... USA ranking - 14... Aussies - 20... Canada... 101.

And whether or not the states has a true passion, their wealth and size of market alone makes them a contender. Soccer got a huge upswing (although short-lived) after the last time they hosted the world cup, and I'm sure the soccer authorities of the world would love to have the richest country in the world become a bigger supporter of the game. They don't have as much to gain by making inroads in Canada.


----------



## JYDA

Nate said:


> It does alright in Australia, and both the national teams are of decent strength... Canada definitely doesn't measure up at all... USA ranking - 14... Aussies - 20... Canada... 101.
> 
> And whether or not the states has a true passion, their wealth and size of market alone makes them a contender. Soccer got a huge upswing (although short-lived) after the last time they hosted the world cup, and I'm sure the soccer authorities of the world would love to have the richest country in the world become a bigger supporter of the game. They don't have as much to gain by making inroads in Canada.


I wasn't talking about those things. I know we don't measure up there and I wasn't responding to say we deserve to host or anything like that. We don't deserve to host. I was only responding to the guy's point that only countries with a "real passion" for the game deserve to host. It's at best the 4th most popular sport in australia behind aussie rules, rugby, and cricket. it's even further down the pecking order in the States.


----------



## Welkin

carnifex2005 said:


> Olympic Stadium is getting a new $300 million dollar roof, so there's a start.


That seems like a lot of money for a stadium that is not used very often. How are they justifying the expense? Are the people of Montreal behind this idea?


----------



## Benn

Wow didn't realize that the roof was still that problematic, or that a fixed roof could get anywhere near that expensive. In the last round of proposals for a new Vikings stadium a full retractable roof for a 68,000 seat stadium an the $200-250 million range.


----------



## KingmanIII

Welkin said:


> That seems like a lot of money for a stadium that is not used very often. How are they justifying the expense? Are the people of Montreal behind this idea?


That place is a money pit.

I don't know why they keep throwing taxpayer dollars at that lemon.


----------



## Commandant

carnifex2005 said:


> Olympic Stadium is getting a new $300 million dollar roof, so there's a start.


They should just build a new stadium for that amount of money...









LaBatt Park, 200 million...
http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/national/monbpk.htm


----------



## Nate

KingmanIII said:


> That place is a money pit.
> 
> I don't know why they keep throwing taxpayer dollars at that lemon.


Because the cost to dismantle it is actually greater than the cost to upkeep/upgrade it... at least from what I read.


----------



## Lord David

Nate said:


> Because the cost to dismantle it is actually greater than the cost to upkeep/upgrade it... at least from what I read.


Who said you had to dismantle it? Surely you can find a new purpose for the Olympic Stadium like how they converted the Velodrome into what is now the Montreal Biodome.

You could turn it into a shopping mall, or a museum of some kind. Heck why not compliment the Biodome and turn it into an Aquarium.


----------



## JYDA

On another note Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment (owner of Toronto FC) president Richard Peddie mentioned the "need" to expand BMO Field to 30,000 seats. Locations for the new training facility have been narrowed down to Milton, Vaughan, Mississauga, and............ Toronto lol. It will be finished in less than two years.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/861510--text-of-richard-peddie-s-speech

There are a lot of fans claiming they've spoken to some insiders that say it's a done deal. Apparently the expansion will be a 2nd deck on the east stand.


----------



## carnifex2005

Here's a link to a story and bunch of photos on the ongoing construction of the new BC Place roof. News is that the roof is now slated to be completed in September. Originally it was July. That means the Lions and the Whitecaps are going to be playing at Empire Field for most, if not all, of their 2011 season.


----------



## isaidso

carnifex2005 said:


> Here's a link to a story and bunch of photos on the ongoing construction of the new BC Place roof. News is that the roof is now slated to be completed in September. Originally it was July. That means the Lions and the Whitecaps are going to be playing at Empire Field for most, if not all, of their 2011 season.


That's terrible! As nice as it is for the Lions to be playing at Empire Field again, attendance has really suffered this year due to the temporary move while BC Place is being renovated.

in 2008, attendance was 34,083. By 2009, attendance had fallen to 28,610/game. At Empire Field this year it's down all the way to 24,183. Waiting another year for BC Place to be ready will really damage this club.

To make matters even more urgent, Vancouver is hosting the 99th Grey Cup game next year. 2011 should be the year that Vancouver benefits with a surge in attendance due to hosting. It's a huge lost opportunity if they have to wait till mid 2011 season, or possibly 2012 to actually use the facility themselves.

I doubt Vancouver would see attendance jump to capacity like often happens when a new facility opens, but a jump back to historical levels around 35,000 would be a realistic expectation.


----------



## isaidso

*B.C. Place will be ready for 99th Grey Cup*

THE CANADIAN PRESS

VANCOUVER -- The $565 million in renovations to B.C. Place Stadium will be completed next fall, long before November's Grey Cup game is scheduled to take centre stage, David Podmore, head of the Crown corporation that runs the stadium, said Monday.

Exactly when the CFL B.C. Lions and Vancouver Whitecaps, who will be playing their first season of Major League Soccer, can return to the refurbished building remains more of a grey area. “The building will be completed in the fall of 2011,” said Podmore, chairman of the B.C. Pavilion Corp., known locally as PavCo. “There was a possibility, and it remains a possibility, for use before that but the building won't be complete. We will get them (Lions and Whitecaps) in as quickly as we can into the new building. We have made the decision we're not going to bring in any events into the building until it's totally complete.” Podmore became irritated when it was pointed out a fall move-in date could span several possible months. “I've answered your question,” he said. “If we can do it earlier, we will.”

During Monday's news conference it was announced the theme for the 2011 Grey Cup will be Raise the Roof. Ticket prices for the game will range from $125 up to $375. The price for Lions season-ticket holders drops to between $100 and $295.

The centrepiece of the B.C. Place renovation is a $458-million retractable roof. The old, marshmallow dome that was part of Vancouver's skyline for years has been removed. Several towers now rise above the stadium bowl like the skeleton of some prehistoric creature.

Podmore said the project is on time, and on budget, but installing the cables for the roof is “technically a difficult project.” Once that's complete, PavCo will have a better idea of when the Lions and Whitecaps can move in.

Lions owner David Braley said he expects to know by May, when season tickets are printed, how many games his team will play at B.C. Place. “I didn't say all of them,” said Braley, a Hamilton businessman and member of the senate. “There might be an exhibition game someplace else. Those dates are not determined.” The Lions could play their first two or three regular season games on the road, allowing them more home games in the new facility.

The Lions have played this season at Empire Field, a 27,500-seat temporary facility located on the Pacific National Exhibition grounds in East Vancouver. The stadium cost $14.4 million to build and was assembled in 111 days. Braley said the move cost him about 1,600-season tickets holders a game and three major sponsors.

After several years of turning a profit, the Lions will be lucky to break even this year. “We knew that was going to happen and we budgeted for it," Braley said. “I didn't lose a lot of money. We have no idea at this point if we are going to be up $100,000 or down $100,000.”

The Whitecaps, who were part of the USSF Division-2 this season, played at 5,200-seat Swangard Stadium in Burnaby, B.C. They expect to begin their MLS season at Empire Field.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

*Ticats announce details for proposed Pan Am stadium in Hamilton*

John Kernaghan and Wade Hemsworth
Hamilton Spectator

HAMILTON—The Hamilton Tiger-Cats are hoping to build a hotel, conference centre, some townhouses and a sports-entertainment complex to go with the city’s Pan Am stadium, making it a destination that will attract community users year-round.

Team president Scott Mitchell and planning consultant Don May were to update the community Wednesday on their side of plans for the proposed stadium district at Longwood Rd. and Aberdeen Ave.

The funding and specifics for the stadium itself have yet to be finalized, with organizers of the Pan Am Games having set Feb. 1 as the final deadline for a proposal.

The city and the team are working on a co-operative stadium package that has already seen the team commit $8 to $10 million, the city $45 million and the provincial and the federal governments $57 million between them, for a total of $110 to $112 million — as much as $53 million less than some consider the actual cost.

The province has indicated it may increase its commitment, but by how much is not yet clear.

The city councillor for the area is doubtful enough public money will materialize to complete the stadium, while the team is proceeding on the basis that it will.

May, a veteran planner involved with major public and private projects and the past president of Parks and Recreation Ontario, is working with city staff to coordinate the stadium and its surrounding buildings in a village-style arrangement, including connections between existing trails and railway beds now in use at the site, which today is a CP marshalling yard.

May said a partnership between the community and public and private partners can produce a positive outcome for all sides, especially with broad public consultation.

The Tiger-Cats would develop the hotel, conference centre and other structures with private partners. The hotel and conference centre would be targeted to coordinate with McMaster Innovation Park on the other side of Aberdeen Ave.

May said the hotel would feature about 150 rooms in a structure up to eight storeys tall, with the possibility of twinning the tower in the future.

The plan would include sports-themed restaurants and a public square that leads into the stadium itself, which would be situated at the west side of the site, close to Hwy. 403.

May said a possible block of townhouses would be designed to attract young buyers, helping to keep them in the city.

Brian McHattie, the city councillor whose Ward 1 includes the site, remains skeptical enough money to build the anchor for the project — the stadium itself — will be forthcoming.

He said the football club’s announcement would have little significance until the funding gap for the stadium was resolved.

“The key now is if the province will come up with an extraordinary amount of money,” he said. “My intelligence tells me they may cap their additional contribution to around $20 million for the stadium.”

May said the province’s encouragement of the city and the team to complete their proposal indicates there is a good chance sufficient money will be available.

McHattie said national politics was a serious roadblock to coaxing more money out of Ottawa despite Hamilton hiring lobbyists to plead the city’s case.

He pointed out that Quebec City’s bid for federal money for a hockey arena was turned down, meaning politicians there would be watching closely for any extra money flowing to a stadium project here.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/footb...tails-for-proposed-pan-am-stadium-in-hamilton


----------



## carnifex2005

Here's the new virtual viewer for Vancouver Whitecaps season tickets at BC Place. I do like the secondary "roof" for the place. Make it look far more intimate for soccer.


----------



## Cirdan

Is the Waterfront Stadium completely scrapped now?


----------



## koolio

There has been no new development on it from what I know. Although I believe it is as good as death. After spending so much money on the renovated BC Place, the Whitecaps have very little leverage against the Federal government to pry the land off their hands.


----------



## Commandant

Any news about the proposed CFL stadiums in Ottawa, Regina, Winnipeg, and Hamilton? Is Moncton any closer to getting a team after this:










What about the proposed NHL arena in Quebec?









Or the proposed renovations to Copp Coliseum in Hamilton?


----------



## Commandant

Actually, what I really want to know, is this dead?


----------



## koolio

Yeah that is long dead.

As for Copps Collosium reno, that died when the NHL refused to let the Phoenix Coyotes move to Hamilton. The Ottawa stadium is supposedly still on track though construction is still a year away I believe. The Quebec City arena is dependent on federal money and there has been no development on that.


----------



## Commandant

koolio said:


> Yeah that is long dead.


:no: What a shame...

What about Moncton? Are they any closer to getting a team? I know Ottawa will get the first expansion franchise, but did Moncton prove they could support the CFL?


----------



## koolio

There has been no confirmation either way. The league does not have any definite plans for expansion beyond Ottawa at the moment but Moncton certainly did not hurt their chances of earning a franchise (either for itself or anywhere else in the Maritime region). I think we will see a couple of more one-off games before talks of a true expansion franchise begin in the earnest.


----------



## jay stew

The last thing the NHL needs is expansion.


----------



## Calvin W

jay stew said:


> The last thing the NHL needs is expansion.


Who said anything about expansion, plenty of teams could relocate.


----------



## carnifex2005

Commandant said:


> What about the proposed NHL arena in Quebec?


The Quebec provincial and civic governments today have committed $200 million dollars CDN each for a new NHL ready arena to be finished by 2015.


----------



## PepMan

carnifex2005 said:


> The Quebec provincial and civic governments today have committed $200 million dollars CDN each for a new NHL ready arena to be finished by 2015.


Saw this on Calgary Herald. Very unique!


----------



## Husarz

jay stew said:


> The last thing the NHL needs is expansion.


Correction, last thing the NHL needed was expansion into the sun belt. 

What the NHL needs is expansion into logical territories, especially new and old Canadian ones.

Bring back Winnipeg and Quebec teams. + Another team in Toronto, one in Missisagua and Hamilton.


----------



## Welkin

Husarz said:


> Correction, last thing the NHL needed was expansion into the sun belt.
> 
> What the NHL needs is expansion into logical territories, especially new and old Canadian ones.
> 
> Bring back Winnipeg and Quebec teams. + Another team in Toronto, one in Missisagua and Hamilton.


The NHL still does not need expansion, it needs relocation. Phoenix to Winnipeg, Atlanta to Quebec City, Nashville to Hamilton and Tampa Bay to Toronto. That right there would solve a whole lot of NHL problems.


----------



## KingmanIII

Welkin said:


> The NHL still does not need expansion, it needs relocation. Phoenix to Winnipeg, Atlanta to Quebec City, Nashville to Hamilton and Tampa Bay to Toronto. That right there would solve a whole lot of NHL problems.


I would agree on Phoenix, Florida and Tampa if they didn't play in relatively new arenas that would sit unoccupied.

Atlanta already has the resurgent Hawks playing at Phillips. They should definitely move.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Nashville and Milwaukee switch franchises.


----------



## Welkin

KingmanIII said:


> I would agree on Phoenix, Florida and Tampa if they didn't play in relatively new arenas that would sit unoccupied.
> 
> Atlanta already has the resurgent Hawks playing at Phillips. They should definitely move.
> 
> I actually wouldn't mind seeing Nashville and Milwaukee switch franchises.


How hot is Kansas City for hockey? I know they have a new arena there and they need a tenant. Would they rather have NHL hockey or NBA basketball? It looks like the New Orleans Hornets may be on the move.


----------



## KingmanIII

Welkin said:


> How hot is Kansas City for hockey? I know they have a new arena there and they need a tenant. Would they rather have NHL hockey or NBA basketball? It looks like the New Orleans Hornets may be on the move.


It's not even close.

We had to cordon off 3/4 of the upper deck when the Kings and Isles came to town back in '09.

The Heat sold out easily two years in a row.


----------



## GunnerJacket

KingmanIII said:


> I would agree on Phoenix, Florida and Tampa if they didn't play in relatively new arenas that would sit unoccupied.


 Just my opinion, but I feel the politics behind the venues of the first two render the spirit of this notion obsolete. Neither was truly needed and essentially both the developers and the teams created a circular argument to justify their need for taxpayer funding. _"You can't have a team without a new arena." "You can't have a new arena without a team to occupy it." _ Phoenix, especially, should have been moved, IMO. Or better still the Canadian teams should never have been removed, to begin with.


----------



## koolio

Agreed. Two greatest myths in regards to stadium/arena development are that 1) A new stadium has a tangible net economic benefit and 2) A new stadium can increase the attendance and interest level in the long run.


----------



## warpus

Husarz said:


> Correction, last thing the NHL needed was expansion into the sun belt.
> 
> What the NHL needs is expansion into logical territories, especially new and old Canadian ones.
> 
> Bring back Winnipeg and Quebec teams. + Another team in Toronto, one in Missisagua and Hamilton.


Don't Toronto and Buffalo have some sort of a deal with the NHL that no teams are able to relocate in that general area? (golden horseshoe, etc.)

I say move a team to London, Ontario! It's a hockey mad town - as far as I know every single Knights game sells out. Sure, the city probably couldn't support an NHL team and an OHL team.. but we could just get rid of the OHL one


----------



## Welkin

warpus said:


> Don't Toronto and Buffalo have some sort of a deal with the NHL that no teams are able to relocate in that general area? (golden horseshoe, etc.)
> 
> I say move a team to London, Ontario! It's a hockey mad town - as far as I know every single Knights game sells out. Sure, the city probably couldn't support an NHL team and an OHL team.. but we could just get rid of the OHL one


London is a great town for the OHL but is way to small for NHL. The JLC only seats 9,100 for hockey and you really need 15-16,000 minimum for the NHL. Plus keep in mind that NHL team revenue runs around $75 million and gate receipts for many teams are only about $30 million. That means without big corporate sponsorships (something London would lack) the team would never make it financially. Although the Knights often outdraw the Moose (how do the Moose in a hockey crazy town, only draw 8,000 a game in a beautiful 15,000 seat arena? They are outdrawn by a much smaller town better known for selling chocolate (Hershey, PA) by almost 1,500 per game. Explain that one to me.), selling tickets at NHL prices is a whole other ballgame.


----------



## KingmanIII

GunnerJacket said:


> Just my opinion, but I feel the politics behind the venues of the first two render the spirit of this notion obsolete. Neither was truly needed and essentially both the developers and the teams created a circular argument to justify their need for taxpayer funding. _"You can't have a team without a new arena." "You can't have a new arena without a team to occupy it." _ Phoenix, especially, should have been moved, IMO. Or better still the Canadian teams should never have been removed, to begin with.


Oh, I agree 100% that those two venues should not have been built in the first place.

It just sucks that the taxpayers are stuck with them even if the franchises relocate.


----------



## KingmanIII

warpus said:


> Don't Toronto and Buffalo have some sort of a deal with the NHL that no teams are able to relocate in that general area? (golden horseshoe, etc.)


It's quite obvious why: MLSE couldn't continue to take advantage of their fanbase with other options nearby.

The most valuable franchise in the NHL, hasn't won (or even appeared in) a Stanley Cup since what, '66?

Leafs fans deserve better, and should demand better.


----------



## Welkin

KingmanIII said:


> It's quite obvious why: MLSE couldn't continue to take advantage of their fanbase with other options nearby.
> 
> The most valuable franchise in the NHL, hasn't won (or even appeared in) a Stanley Cup since what, '66?
> 
> Leafs fans deserve better, and should demand better.


The Leafs (as well as the Raptors and Toronto FC) are owned by the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan. Their main goal is a good return on investment for their retired teachers, not winning Stanley Cups or even making the playoffs. The Leafs lack an owner that is passionate about winning hockey, and instead have one that is happy with the status quo as long as the seats are filled. 

Toronto should be the New York Yankees of hockey. They should have the highest payroll and more Stanley Cups than anyone. It is a shame and an insult to all Canadian hockey. That is why even though I live in Toronto, I refuse to root for the Leafs or buy their merchandise. If only the Leafs and Raptor (another constantly losing team) fans would rise up against their corporate MLSE overlords and demand change like the Toronto FC fans did at the end of last season. These teams are not just cash cows to be milked. They are part of the city's psyche and MLSE has turned Toronto into a city of losers. The ironic thing is that the team that gets the least support from fans in Toronto (the Argos) have won four Grey Cups since 1990 including one as late as 2004.


----------



## weava

Welkin said:


> How hot is Kansas City for hockey? I know they have a new arena there and they need a tenant. Would they rather have NHL hockey or NBA basketball? It looks like the New Orleans Hornets may be on the move.


I personally would rather have the NHL but overall the city is basketball crazy and would easily support an NBA team. A NHL team would need to be a winner or have a star player to have success here. There is a CHL team in the suburbs that is decently popular.


----------



## JYDA

Welkin said:


> The Leafs (as well as the Raptors and Toronto FC) are owned by the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan. Their main goal is a good return on investment for their retired teachers, not winning Stanley Cups or even making the playoffs. The Leafs lack an owner that is passionate about winning hockey, and instead have one that is happy with the status quo as long as the seats are filled.
> 
> Toronto should be the New York Yankees of hockey. They should have the highest payroll and more Stanley Cups than anyone. It is a shame and an insult to all Canadian hockey. That is why even though I live in Toronto, I refuse to root for the Leafs or buy their merchandise. If only the Leafs and Raptor (another constantly losing team) fans would rise up against their corporate MLSE overlords and demand change like the Toronto FC fans did at the end of last season. These teams are not just cash cows to be milked. They are part of the city's psyche and MLSE has turned Toronto into a city of losers. The ironic thing is that the team that gets the least support from fans in Toronto (the Argos) have won four Grey Cups since 1990 including one as late as 2004.


This irrational misguided viewpoint continually gets trotted out. Do you have any idea how much MORE money they would make if the Leafs were in the playoffs and contending?? Playoffs drive merchandising, ratings, suite demand, and ad rates more than anything else. 

To insinuate they're not trying is such nonsense. It's a HARD CAP LEAGUE. How are you supposed to outspend other teams when you're not allowed to? They don't spend like the Yankees because they CAN'T. MLB only has a luxury tax so they can spend whatever the hell they want. If you want to blame someone then blame the underperforming GM's who both arrived with impressive resumes and hefty price tags that MLSE was willing to pay but have both messed up.


----------



## isaidso

*First concrete poured at new stadium*
Winnipeg Free Press - ONLINE EDITION
By: Staff Writer


The steel piles are in the ground and now the concrete is being poured on the new football stadium for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and University of Manitoba Bisons. The club announced that the first concrete pour took place this morning at 10 a.m. "It's very exciting to reach another crucial construction point on schedule," said Ossama AbouZeid, Project Manager. "Everything is continuing to move as we planned and we're pleased with the progress to date."

*The Bombers and Bisons will open the new stadium in 2012.* Those interested in watching the construction unfold should visit www.bluebombers.com for a live feed from the construction site at the University of Manitoba.


----------



## Welkin

JYDA said:


> This irrational misguided viewpoint continually gets trotted out. Do you have any idea how much MORE money they would make if the Leafs were in the playoffs and contending?? Playoffs drive merchandising, ratings, suite demand, and ad rates more than anything else.
> 
> To insinuate they're not trying is such nonsense. It's a HARD CAP LEAGUE. How are you supposed to outspend other teams when you're not allowed to? They don't spend like the Yankees because they CAN'T. MLB only has a luxury tax so they can spend whatever the hell they want. If you want to blame someone then blame the underperforming GM's who both arrived with impressive resumes and hefty price tags that MLSE was willing to pay but have both messed up.


OK I'll give you the hard cap and state that I misspoke on the spending. Still, they have not won a Stanley Cup since 1967, so I'll just put it down to incompetence. You may disagree, but I still don't feel any passion from the ownership group about winning. The Leafs sell out regardless if they win or not. You cannot argue the fact that MLSE produces nothing but losers in three different leagues. They make a boatload of money, but they produce nothing but losers. You show me where there is any passion for winning from MLSE in any of their three teams. 

Toronto is the number 1 hockey market in the world, and to have no Stanley Cups since 1967 is an embarrassment and to not even be a contender is a travesty. 2009-12th in the East, 2008- 12th in the East, 2007- 9th in the East, 2006-11th in the East, 2004-Made the playoffs thank God. You tell me where the blame lies if it is not with MLSE.


----------



## TheKorean

KingmanIII said:


> I would agree on Phoenix, Florida and Tampa if they didn't play in relatively new arenas that would sit unoccupied.
> 
> Atlanta already has the resurgent Hawks playing at Phillips. They should definitely move.
> 
> I actually wouldn't mind seeing Nashville and Milwaukee switch franchises.


No, Atlanta cant move, theres a reason why NHL gave them another team.

Winnipeg and QC can sustain teams and Hamilton, but not Missagua.

Southern teams can succeed. St. Louis Blues? Washington Capitals? LA Kings? San jose Sharks?


----------



## canadiancreed

weava said:


> cheaper tickets and fewer games makes the attendance number comparasions apples to oranges.


Agreed. You could have the Leafs play in the Skydome and it would be packed every night. Toronto FC will never see that, barring a radical shift in Canadian demographics and three generations or more generations of working on that shift.


----------



## skyridgeline

GunnerJacket said:


> Well that sucks. Sorry the bid committee couldn't work something out, because obviously it would serve the soccer community's interests to match this great event with another proper venue. Will the Pan Am games actually be using BMO field?
> 
> *Surprised to see Edmonton on there* but I guess it would help to balance the distribution a bit. Especially since the tournament will have a larger number of teams. I know some womens match-ups can reach the 60k mark but that's traditionally been in larger cities. Also wonder if they don't need more venues overall.
> 
> Excited for Canada, though, and hope to take my family to some games in Montreal. Nice to see Winnepeg get the nod, too.


----------



## GunnerJacket

Sorry guys, I didn't mean it to sound a knock on the city. I remember attending some NASL games in Atlanta when the Drillers were still operating. I simply thought they'd angle for games all in smaller venues, is all. Either way I wish the event great success and hope to catch some games.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

Renders of the Saputo Stadium expansion in Montreal in preparation for the Montreal Impact's entry into MLS.


----------



## koolio

Looks decent ... although I wish that at least one of the two open corners were filled in. Either way ... can't really complain about a 20,000+ soccer specific stadium in this country. Bodes well for the sport as a whole.


----------



## hngcm

I'm guessing a future (and final?) expansion will include replacing the north stand (up in the picture) to bring capacity around 30k?

Maybe they make the new stand two tiers and it look like St. James Park.


----------



## MegasAlexandros

koolio said:


> Looks decent ... although I wish that at least one of the two open corners were filled in.


Actually, they can't. There is a bylaw which states that views from the Olympic Village (to the right of the last image) looking toward the Olympic Stadium (to the left of the image) cannot be obstructed.


----------



## JYDA

Thankfully they'll be building a tunnel from the benches to the locker rooms. It's been a bit of a gong show with the players having to cross the concession area.


----------



## carnifex2005

I find it amazing that this stadium will cost only $40 million total including the upgrade. ($17 million originally and $23 million for the renovation)


----------



## warpus

MegasAlexandros said:


> Actually, they can't. There is a bylaw which states that views from the Olympic Village (to the right of the last image) looking toward the Olympic Stadium (to the left of the image) cannot be obstructed.


Can you explain what you mean by this? Isn`t the stadium in the way anyway?


----------



## carnifex2005

warpus said:


> Can you explain what you mean by this? Isn`t the stadium in the way anyway?


Sort of. Here's a pic from the Olympic Stadium towards the Olympic Village (the pyramid shaped building).










As a Montrealer on Big Soccer explained the gap between the main stand and the three others is mandated because of the park's architectural integrity: the lane at the bottom of the pic below runs from the tower to the athlete's village (the pyramids in the back).


----------



## ElDudarinodotcom

MegasAlexandros said:


> Renders of the Saputo Stadium expansion in Montreal in preparation for the Montreal Impact's entry into MLS.


I think its great to show that a SSS perfectly suited for the US or Canada can be built on a relatively small budget. You don't need to spend $200 million on a Red Bull Arena to build a nice stadium that will attract fans.


----------



## TheKorean

The land value has got something to do with it.


----------



## Riise

isaidso said:


> Edmonton has a history of large scale support for soccer. It wouldn't surprise me if they landed a MLS team by 2020.


Considering that the large scale support has only been there for the national team rather than club footy, I'd be rather surprised. Nevertheless, I'd still love to see a couple of PDL clubs set up in both Calgary and Edmonton. Under the right conditions, they could build some pretty strong clubs from the ground up.

If I won the 6/49 or LottoMax, I'd get the ball rolling before running back to the UK.


----------



## koolio

Riise said:


> Considering that the large scale support has only been there for the national team rather than club footy, I'd be rather surprised. Nevertheless, I'd still love to see a couple of PDL clubs set up in both Calgary and Edmonton. Under the right conditions, they could build some pretty strong clubs from the ground up.
> 
> If I won the 6/49 or LottoMax, I'd get the ball rolling before running back to the UK.


Well, prior to Toronto FC, there wasn't even large scale support for the national team let alone club football here in Toronto (not since the NASL days at least). I don't think Edmonton will ever get an MLS team considering how small a city it is but yes, a second tier club can be successful ... especially if the Canadian domestic tournament proves to be a success, which would mean that the team would consistently be playing against MLS teams Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal.


----------



## isaidso

Riise said:


> Nevertheless, I'd still love to see a couple of PDL clubs set up in both Calgary and Edmonton.


I had to google PDL. It would be a shame if Canada was limited to just 3 MLS teams. MLS would really need at least 6-7 Canadian teams for it to gain a true national following here. Just Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver MLS teams won't be enough. 

I'm hopeful that Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa will get the nod a few years down the road. They're all wealthy, relatively fast growing metropolitan areas, and roughly the same size as MLS' smallest market: Salt Lake City.

Salt Lake City: 1,130,293 (2009)
Calgary: 1,242,600 (2010)
Ottawa: 1,239,100 (2010)
Edmonton: 1,176,300 (2010) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas


----------



## carnifex2005

Riise said:


> Considering that the large scale support has only been there for the national team rather than club footy, I'd be rather surprised. Nevertheless, I'd still love to see a couple of PDL clubs set up in both Calgary and Edmonton. Under the right conditions, they could build some pretty strong clubs from the ground up.
> 
> If I won the 6/49 or LottoMax, I'd get the ball rolling before running back to the UK.


Edmonton has a NASL (2nd Division) team, FC Edmonton that are having their first full season this year. If fact they play Toronto FC in the first game of the Voyageurs Cup in a few weeks.


----------



## mattec

isaidso said:


> I had to google PDL. It would be a shame if Canada was limited to just 3 MLS teams. MLS would really need at least 6-7 Canadian teams for it to gain a true national following here. Just Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver MLS teams won't be enough.
> 
> I'm hopeful that Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa will get the nod a few years down the road. They're all wealthy, relatively fast growing metropolitan areas, and roughly the same size as MLS' smallest market: Salt Lake City.
> 
> Salt Lake City: 1,130,293 (2009)
> Calgary: 1,242,600 (2010)
> Ottawa: 1,239,100 (2010)
> Edmonton: 1,176,300 (2010)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas


I see 4-5 MAX with the possible addition of Ottawa down the road and the ouside shot of Calgary getting a team. But this will be after a second NY team, SE expansion, and probably a decade of no growth to let the talent pool catch up.

Lets just say future Canadian expansion (outside of Montreal) isn't high on the MLS' list of priorities right now...


----------



## skyridgeline

*More of the 2002 FIFA U-19 Championship Pre-Game Show in Edmonton*



skyridgeline said:


>


----------



## ryebreadraz

isaidso said:


> I had to google PDL. It would be a shame if Canada was limited to just 3 MLS teams. MLS would really need at least 6-7 Canadian teams for it to gain a true national following here. Just Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver MLS teams won't be enough.
> 
> I'm hopeful that Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa will get the nod a few years down the road. They're all wealthy, relatively fast growing metropolitan areas, and roughly the same size as MLS' smallest market: Salt Lake City.
> 
> Salt Lake City: 1,130,293 (2009)
> Calgary: 1,242,600 (2010)
> Ottawa: 1,239,100 (2010)
> Edmonton: 1,176,300 (2010)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas


Salt Lake City isn't a fair comparison for any future MLS teams. They came into the league when stable ownership was paramount and that's why they got into the league. If Salt Lake were trying to get into the league now, they most likely wouldn't. MLS is a completely different animal now.


----------



## isaidso

GunnerJacket said:


> MLS is fortunate enough to have reached a financial state where simply being "big and wealthy enough" justifies inclusion, and will go next where they'll bring in the most attention and money. So while the Canadian teams have indeed been good to MLS, I think furthering the MLS brand in Canada is lower on the priority scale at this point.


I realize that's how US based leagues are going to view it, but it doesn't make the situation any more palpable from a Canadian perspective. 3 teams in all of Canada just isn't good enough. If we were the size of Estonia or Denmark it would be understandable, but we're not. 

I can't think of any western nation our size that has only 3 soccer teams.


----------



## JYDA

isaidso said:


> I realize that's how US based leagues are going to view it, but it doesn't make the situation any more palpable from a Canadian perspective. 3 teams in all of Canada just isn't good enough. If we were the size of Estonia or Denmark it would be understandable, but we're not.
> 
> I can't think of any western nation our size that has only 3 soccer teams.


There's also no nation our size in the world that doesn't have our own league.hno: The big three cities casting their lot with MLS has it upsides and downsides. The downside is the limitations on Canadian expansion. It would be nice to have more teams but the realist in me won't get his hopes up.


----------



## Nate

JYDA said:


> There's also no nation our size in the world that doesn't have our own league.hno: The big three cities casting their lot with MLS has it upsides and downsides. The downside is the limitations on Canadian expansion. It would be nice to have more teams but the realist in me won't get his hopes up.


The problem in comparing to the rest of the world is that soccer is the number one sport in most other countries. In Canada, it might be third behind Hockey and Football (although in terms of regular TV viewership, it is also behind things like Curling).

And if we were to have our own league, you would also run into issues the CFL constantly runs into. Some people will refuse to support it because it won't have the VERY best athletes. The NFL is much richer and can take all of the very top athletes, and the same would happen with soccer. A Canadian league would be so far behind even the average European country in terms of talent it's not even funny.

Until we actually develop some national pride and care less about how things are in other countries (mostly the States), having our own domestic league will be a challenge. The CFL has survived (sometimes by the thinnest of margins), but it has a history that soccer in Canada doesn't.


----------



## GunnerJacket

isaidso said:


> I realize that's how US based leagues are going to view it, but it doesn't make the situation any more palpable from a Canadian perspective. 3 teams in all of Canada just isn't good enough. If we were the size of Estonia or Denmark it would be understandable, but we're not.
> 
> I can't think of any western nation our size that has only 3 soccer teams.


I thought you had more than three teams, you simply don't have more than that at the highest level, right?

Like the States, Canada has lacked the historical epmhasis needed to develop a top flight of its own, with geography and demography combining to urge the nations to work together in pro sports. For our part of the globe the benefits of a joint league outweighs the costs of each nation going solo. You and I can envision a 10+ team Canadian top flight that could very well hold its own (and that might someday come to pass), but we can also look at USL history and easily see such a venture struggling. Especially as others have said in terms of luring solid talent in the shadow of other sports leagues. I'd love to see that former scenario play out, as it would serve US Soccer interests and help the appeal of the CONCACAF CL, as well. Until then the current model is at least lifting the level soccer in both nations, even if not as quickly as we'd like.

Cheers!


----------



## Welkin

JYDA said:


> There's also no nation our size in the world that doesn't have our own league.hno: The big three cities casting their lot with MLS has it upsides and downsides. The downside is the limitations on Canadian expansion. It would be nice to have more teams but the realist in me won't get his hopes up.


Canada has had its own leagues before (1926–1992 – National Soccer League, 1993–1997 – Canadian National Soccer League, 1998–2005 – Canadian Professional Soccer League, 2006–Present – Canadian Soccer League) but they drew poorly and failed to catch on with the public. I don't think that Canada can support a professional soccer league (and history bears this out). Canada could easily support a Canadian only top-tier hockey league (wouldn't that be nice to tell the NHL to take a hike and finally have teams in Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec), but not soccer. We are better off tossing our lot in with MLS if we want to watch any decent soccer.


----------



## warpus

Welkin said:


> We are better off tossing our lot in with MLS if we want to watch any decent soccer.


Not only that, having teams in the MLS is really going to help our national team. Toronto FC already has a very respectable academy that has already produced new talent.

If Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal were playing in a Canadian league as opposed to the MLS, the quality of play would go down and a lot of the better players would leave. We're not there yet.. Give it a couple more decades


----------



## matthemod

Unfortunately that's a very valid point. Cross-boundary sports team exist all over the World and you only have to look at the English league to see that. There are three notable Welsh teams that play in the English system (Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham, the latter more on a historical basis) but there does exist a Welsh Premier League. As you'd expect, it's very low quality when comparing to the English league, with quality equating to that of the English Conference (5th Level). Near enough all of the Welsh national team play in England, with one playing in Scotland and it can only benefit the Welsh team unfortunately.

Infact there's a current debate going on about Rangers and Celtic seeking to enter the English Premier league, for the very reason that they far outrank their main competition in the Scottish Premier League.


----------



## GunnerJacket

matthemod said:


> Infact there's a current debate going on about Rangers and Celtic seeking to enter the English Premier league, for the very reason that they far outrank their main competition in the Scottish Premier League.


Well it's less of a debate and more a matter of the Old Firm eyeing the revenue potential within the Premiership while their English counterparts don't want to share. Clearly it would help Celtic and Rangers, even if they had to spend a few years climbing up the ranks, but in the long run it stands to hurt the likes of Villa, Everton, Spurs and others trying to catch up to the so-called big four. Too many good sized clubs already missing out on European competition. Now it'd be fun if Cardiff and Swansea could be shipped to the SPL. 


Back to Canada - What's the status of lower league sports there? Obviously hockey does well but is there a serious economy for second division soccer? Would the travel costs prove prohbitive for anything below MLS level revenues?


----------



## isaidso

GunnerJacket said:


> I thought you had more than three teams, you simply don't have more than that at the highest level, right?


We actually only have 2; next year we will have 3. MLS does look like it will be the first time a pro soccer league has attained traction in this part of America. I don't have an issue with it being a joint Canada-United States league, but feel it would be sad if this becomes yet another sport that is only enjoyed in a couple of Canadian markets. Soccer is booming in Canada, and would hope that expansion in Canada isn't done after Montreal joins next year. 

Calgary, Edmonton, and Ottawa have all shown that they are capable of supporting pro sports franchises. Edmonton has drawn 50,000 for women's soccer. All I'm saying is that discounting these cities because they're a little on the small size by US standards would be a shame. 6 cities would give MLS a truly national scope in Canada and I doubt either of these additions would end up being a drag on the league.

After all, MLS would be wise to covet markets where there is sufficient support rather than just relying on population statistics.


----------



## isaidso

JYDA said:


> There's also no nation our size in the world that doesn't have our own league.hno: The big three cities casting their lot with MLS has it upsides and downsides. The downside is the limitations on Canadian expansion. It would be nice to have more teams but the realist in me won't get his hopes up.


Yeah, MLB and the NBA have all but permanently eliminated the possibility of Canada ever developing a national league in those sports. It's nice to have those 2 leagues represented here, but it's meant there will never be much development of those sports beyond Toronto since the biggest market is taken.


----------



## JYDA

isaidso said:


> We actually only have 2; next year we will have 3


He asked about total pro teams, of which there are 4. Montreal and Edmonton are in the 2nd tier NASL.


----------



## isaidso

JYDA said:


> He asked about total pro teams, of which there are 4. Montreal and Edmonton are in the 2nd tier NASL.


I see.


----------



## Commandant

Are there any renderings of the new Ivor Wynne Stadium?


----------



## vanbasten88

Commandant said:


> Are there any renderings of the new Ivor Wynne Stadium?


I'd also appreciate some pics of the new Winnipeg Blue Bombers stadium U/C if possible please Any Manitobans out there on SSC?:cheers:


----------



## skyridgeline

^^

There you go .... knock yourself out :lol:

Journal of Commerce ~March 28, 2011









Journal of Commerce ~March 28, 2011









_Construction workers are braving the elements to build a new stadium for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. About half of the underground work has been completed, with -1,300 piles having been driven so far._

- PETER CAULFIELD (correspondent)


----------



## htpwn




----------



## isaidso

vanbasten88 said:


> I'd also appreciate some pics of the new Winnipeg Blue Bombers stadium U/C if possible please Any Manitobans out there on SSC?:cheers:


Here's a link to the live cam: http://www.bluebombers.com/page/construction-webcam


----------



## vanbasten88

isaidso said:


> Here's a link to the live cam: http://www.bluebombers.com/page/construction-webcam


much obliged, thank you, I'd love to see a live CFL game one day, why not in Winterpeg?


----------



## Nate

A bit of further development/news on the Regina Stadium front...



> *City of Regina will soon unveil stadium plans: Mayor Pat Fiacco*
> 
> By JOE COUTURE, Leader-Post
> 
> REGINA — Mayor Pat Fiacco says to expect an announcement "in the next few weeks" about the future plans for a replacement of Regina's Mosaic Stadium.
> 
> And while he says a new entertainment facility is "absolutely" still high on his priority list, the mayor says he has a longer-term vision that includes major inner-city redevelopment driven by the private-sector.
> 
> "I can tell you that there's been a tremendous amount of work done since the federal government decided that Regina should not get any of our hard-earned federal tax dollars back into this community," he said on Monday night. "Within the next little while, you'll hear more news."
> 
> Read more: http://www.leaderpost.com/news/City...Mayor+Fiacco/4602078/story.html#ixzz1JSCQnljz


And for an idea of where they are talking about:










The proposed site is in Red... north of downtown (across some rail lines)... it's also conveniently directly north of Casino Regina. Also right north of the proposed stadium is the main bar/pub strip in Regina. There are about 7 or so bars/pubs on the street right north of the site (Dewdney Avenue). So the impact on those businesses could be quite good around game days (or event nights if the multi-purpose plan is pursued).

Downtown has plenty of available parking for evening/night events as well, so new surface parking isn't something thats really necessary around the project either.

The current stadium site is where they are saying there could be some very good inner-city redevelopment done to help support that neighbourhood... it's more of a low-income/poorer area overall.


----------



## isaidso

^^ I wish Potash or Mosaic would step in to make this happen now that the feds can't be counted on for support.



vanbasten88 said:


> much obliged, thank you, I'd love to see a live CFL game one day, why not in Winterpeg?


It's, by far, my favourite league in the world. Just don't let Toronto be your first introduction to football. I'd rank the game day football experience as follows:

1. Regina (best in the land by a long shot)
2. Montreal (fab venue and location over looking the city)

3-6. Winnipeg, Hamilton, Calgary, Edmonton tied
7. Vancouver (so so)
8. Toronto (abysmal football town: I live here, but drive to Hamilton for games)


----------



## hkskyline

*Stadium report out of bounds
No public value in development option *
Ottawa Citizen
3 April 2011

Let's boil the Ottawa baseball stadium issue down to its essence. What is of more value to the taxpayers who own the Coventry Road site, a soccer dome used by thousands of recreational players or a bunch of condos and office buildings?

If you read city staff's report on the subject, it's a slam dunk for the condo and office development. In their enthusiasm to play the development game, city staff almost entirely disregard the concept of public value on what they themselves call "a unique major urban facility."

If the option that staff clearly favour is adopted by council, this unique major urban facility will be transformed into an outdoor concert bowl with no on-site parking except what the office buildings provide. One need not be a seer to predict that after a couple of years, the city will decide that the concert bowl idea just didn't pan out. Then the stadium itself will be torn down to allow for more condos and office buildings. The only public value will be in the form of a cheque for selling the property.

City staff mount numerous arguments in favour of the development option but they are a series of assertions unsupported by either facts or numbers.

The first thing to question is the viability of this site as a mixed-use project. The plan is based on nothing more than a general observation that developers like uncontaminated sites near major roads and transit links. Is this an attractive place to live?

It's relatively close to transit, but residents will have the Queensway on one side, a hotel on another and a big Canadian Tire on a third.

City staff say it's imperative to get on with an $8.8-million footbridge to link this site to the transit station on the other side of Highway 417. A month ago, staff were talking about allowing existing pedestrians and cyclists to cross, but this report is a little more focused. The footbridge will greatly increase the value of the cityowned stadium land, staff say. They even say the increase in value is "likely" to be greater than the cost of the bridge. Typically, there is nothing solid to support that contention. Nor is there any estimate of what the land is worth today or what it would be worth if sold for development. How can staff seriously suggest that councillors should proceed down the development path without a clue as to how much money the site would generate?

You really have to get scared when city staff say they want to act as the developers and call this site "a showcase of the city's official plan and city strategic plan provisions." All that said, it's difficult to make a good case for baseball in this baseball stadium. Neither fans nor consequential baseball teams seem interested. The city definitely needs a plan, but staff refuse to accept the most obvious one.

Thanks to media coverage, city staff have finally been forced to address the idea of moving the Lansdowne soccer dome to the baseball park, an idea they have never put in front of councillors.

The staff report confirms that the Lansdowne dome could fit on the baseball field without altering the stadium structure and all the necessary work could be done within the budget the city has already established for the move. Taxpayers get that bill because the dome's owners have a contract that guarantees them relocation if they have to leave Lansdowne. Despite those facts, city staff are still against the dome at the baseball park. They don't quite say it, but continued significant public use of the site would kill their plans for redevelopment.

The city certainly isn't showing much respect for the people who own the dome and the thousands of recreational players who use it. After telling the dome owners that they had to move out of Lansdowne, the city is now telling them they can stay for another year due to delays in construction. Unfortunately, the dome owners have already cancelled their season and a good part of the business has gone elsewhere. The city is still determined to move the privately-owned dome to an unattractive site in Ledbury Park. The dome and the city's concert bowl plan would actually fit well together, providing year-round public use of the baseball stadium.

There's even room for a bit of baseball. None of this can happen if the city sells the land for development.


----------



## Commandant

So what's the latest with Lansdowne Park?


----------



## isaidso

It's approved, but a local lobby group is making one last attempt at scuttling the whole thing. They don't want this traditional sports area used for sports any more. You'd think if they hated sports they wouldn't move next to a stadium.


----------



## Alx-D

I can't believe the power NIMBYs have these day to be a political pain in the ass.


----------



## isaidso

I wish someone would file a lawsuit against them. It would make them think twice and drill it into their heads that they're a small minority holding an entire city hostage to selfish demands.


----------



## vanbasten88

Alx-D said:


> I can't believe the power NIMBYs have these day to be a political pain in the ass.


Doesn't matter where in the world, but unfortunately the squeaky wheel gets the grease I fricking hate negative NIMBYs ruining things that only marginally impact upon them or things that were 'in place' first, like the idiots that buy cheaply under the flight path then campaign to get the airport moved Grandfathering clauses and an Official from the Dept of Shut the F**k Up from the government should sort it out IMHO.


----------



## isaidso

I'm confident that the stadium will proceed. It's just a shame that Ottawa will likely have to go without a football team for one more year.

Montreal probably has the largest fan base in Canadian pro football yet NIMBYs successfully reduced the expansion of their stadium to just 5,000 more seats even though the stadium has been there for 92 years. They built the 5,000 seats, but I'm hopeful that down the road they'll get another 10,000 seats in there. If they continued the bowl around the western end zone it's doable.

*Molson Stadium, home of the Montreal Alouettes*








http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2273/2237445996_8c575cd152.jpg


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> I'm confident that the stadium will proceed. It's just a shame that Ottawa will likely have to go without a football team for one more year.
> 
> Montreal probably has the largest fan base in Canadian pro football yet NIMBYs successfully reduced the expansion of their stadium to just 5,000 more seats even though the stadium has been there for 92 years. They built the 5,000 seats, but I'm hopeful that down the road they'll get another 10,000 seats in there. If they continued the bowl around the western end zone it's doable.
> 
> *Molson Stadium, home of the Montreal Alouettes*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2273/2237445996_8c575cd152.jpg



They would be very hard pressed to complete the bowl. Being on a university campus as such. Especially with a hospital building butting right up to the stadium. Probably easier to move the stadium?


----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> They would be very hard pressed to complete the bowl. Being on a university campus as such. Especially with a hospital building butting right up to the stadium. Probably easier to move the stadium?


It's been a long time since I lived there, but if memory serves me correctly those buildings directly abutting the end zone aren't of huge historical or architectural value. I think the one with the green roof is though. 

Taking down the first building to build a bowl would be a tight fit, but Alouettes fans love Molson Stadium for good reason. It's an intimate facility, centrally located, and offers dynamite views of downtown. 

Long term, the Alouettes would be better off lowering the field to allow a bigger tier, taking down Tomlinson Hall/Currie Gym south of the stadium, and building the bowl to form a 'U'. It would be a massive under taking, but the location is important to the franchise. Doing all of these things is the only way the Alouettes could meet demand and stay at this location. They could probably get a 45,000 seater if they used the entire lot right to Avenue des Pins Ouest.

McGill owns the stadium so I doubt they'd complain. The Alouettes basically took a crumbling facility and brought it back from the brink after spending huge sums of money. More investment in their stadium might be welcomed. I bet they make a tidy profit renting to the pro football team.


----------



## vanbasten88

isaidso said:


> I'm confident that the stadium will proceed. It's just a shame that Ottawa will likely have to go without a football team for one more year.
> 
> <snipped>>


Is there anywhere an interested outsider like me can go to get up to date news on the new OttawaCFL team? Will they be the RoughRiders again or have the Watermelon-heads from SK got that sewn up? :nuts:


----------



## isaidso

I find it hard getting information too. There's a Lansdowne Park Revitalization thread here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=181897&page=60 This site is more about the revitalization of the whole site to accommodate the football team, a possible soccer team, and a few other things. I used to check quite often, but there hasn't been any news in ages so I don't bother any more. 

There's also www.cfl.ca but there hasn't been any news here either. I hope that Ottawa keeps the 'R' on their helmet and their old colours, but don't want another team called the Rough Riders. Let the watermelon heads have it.


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## vanbasten88

Thanks for the tips, I guess Riders would just reignite the old ridicule of the CFL which i felt was never warranted, I mean if you're going to ridicule a sports league for it team nicknames, the WNBA is where you need to be IMHO.
Sparks, Starzz, Fever and Mercury WTF, over? If every team in the CFL was called the Rough riders the level of naff-ness would be 5% of the WNBA. I can't remember but I'm petty sure both teams had a valid reason for being called Roughriders.
Does Renegades have any public support? If not Royals could work for an R related logo tying in with Ottawa's role as capitol city.


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## JYDA

Saskatchewan were commonly referred to as the Greenriders back then as a way of differentiating the two. I don't think it was that big a deal for multiple teams to have the same name. It would take you a day to count the number of american college sports teams named the wildcats.


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## vanbasten88

Ned: Who are we?
Kids: The Roughriders!
Ned: Who are we gonna beat?
Kids: The Roughriders!
:cheers:

with apologies to Matt Groening


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## isaidso

In what would be a 9 team circuit, 2 with the same name is a bit much. Technically, Ottawa were the Rough Riders rather than the Roughriders. It's still the same though. How about Rams? That's a good traditional football name and it will allow them to keep that famous 'R' on their helmet.


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## koolio

Why not just go back to Renegades?


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## Welkin

koolio said:


> Why not just go back to Renegades?


Give me the Ottawa Red Riders or the Ottawa Red Raiders.


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## vanbasten88

Welkin said:


> Give me the Ottawa Red Riders or the Ottawa Red Raiders.


what about the Ottawa Redlegs? or just the Reds? 
I don't mind your suggestion of Red Raiders though surely the consortium behind the team will run a "name the team" comp?


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## isaidso

koolio said:


> Why not just go back to Renegades?


I don't think that name would be starting things off on the right footing. The Renegades organization were widely ridiculed.


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## vanbasten88

isaidso said:


> I don't think that name would be starting things off on the right footing. The Renegades organization were widely ridiculed.


Is it true they[the Renegades] drafted a dead guy? that's pretty ridiculous if true:lol::lol:


----------



## Archbishop

Any chance Portlands would be used in a possible 2020/2024 Summer Olympics bid? A stadium that could be used for an NFL team as well?


----------



## JYDA

Archbishop said:


> Any chance Portlands would be used in a possible 2020/2024 Summer Olympics bid? A stadium that could be used for an NFL team as well?


There's been talk of another Olympic bid depending on how the 2015 Pan Am games go. It's seen as a possible launching pad.


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## Welkin

Archbishop said:


> Any chance Portlands would be used in a possible 2020/2024 Summer Olympics bid? A stadium that could be used for an NFL team as well?


Olympic stadiums make lousy NFL stadiums (unless of course you spend hundreds of millions more retrofitting the Olympic stadium to NFL standards).


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## isaidso

Archbishop said:


> Any chance Portlands would be used in a possible 2020/2024 Summer Olympics bid? A stadium that could be used for an NFL team as well?


We already have a pro football team, thanks. The oldest pro sports team on the continent, at that. The NFL can go to Mexico if they want.


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## carnifex2005

3D view of Stade Saputo and their season ticket prices. Warning, there is an crowd chant audio clip that autoplays. You can turn that off in the upper right hand corner.


----------



## kev_427

Toronto needs a new stadium with at least 60,000 seats. There is no city over 2 million people that has a stadium as small as the Rogers Centre. And it's outdated anyway.


----------



## JYDA

kev_427 said:


> Toronto needs a new stadium with at least 60,000 seats. There is no city over 2 million people that has a stadium as small as the Rogers Centre. And it's outdated anyway.


60,000 seats for what??? Rogers Centre is already plenty big enough for the Jays and Argos who never fill it. As for it being "outdated" I disagree. It may be a couple of decades old but it's still got all the bells and whistles new stadiums have so what's the problem?


----------



## KingmanIII

kev_427 said:


> Toronto needs a new stadium with at least 60,000 seats. There is no city over 2 million people that has a stadium as small as the Rogers Centre. And it's outdated anyway.


Rogers Centre seats about 53,000 with about 200 skyboxes and was built just over 20 years ago at a price of $570 million.

You can pretty much forget about a new stadium -- perhaps a renovation and/or seat replacement, but that's it.


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## Lord David

Forget about what new stadium? It was willing and proposed for each of Toronto's two Olympic bids for 1996 and 2008. And surprisingly not proposed (in an initial downsized capacity, upgradable) for their 2015 Pan American Games. Of course this was just an additional venue, dependent if they got the Games.

They will do the same for a 2020 or 2024 bid, just depends if it will be proposed or additional, like the other two bids.


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## KingmanIII

Lord David said:


> Forget about what new stadium? It was willing and proposed for each of Toronto's two Olympic bids for 1996 and 2008. And surprisingly not proposed (in an initial downsized capacity, upgradable) for their 2015 Pan American Games. Of course this was just an additional venue, dependent if they got the Games.
> 
> They will do the same for a 2020 or 2024 bid, just depends if it will be proposed or additional, like the other two bids.


By then the Skydome will be 30+ years old...I don't think it's ready to meet the wrecking ball just yet.


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## Commandant

Has Halifax seen any progress with this project:









http://eventsnovascotia.com/userfiles/file/StadiumConceptWHW_Dec24_2010.pdf


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## ryebreadraz

^ I believe they said it would be built if Canada won the right to host the 2015 Women's World Cup, which they did, so I would guess that it will get the green light.


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## Welkin

After watching many of the matches in Germany for the 2011 Women's World Cup, I can't believe Canada would use something as dinky as this stadium. If Halifax can't build an appropriate stadium for the Women's 2015 World Cup, then Canada should just skip Halifax and move on to better venues in other cities. Let's hope that Halifax takes this opportunity to build something decent and maybe attract a CFL team.


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## Lord David

KingmanIII said:


> By then the Skydome will be 30+ years old...I don't think it's ready to meet the wrecking ball just yet.


I didn't mention anything about the Skydome.


----------



## Lord David

Halifax should use a stadium which has a large enough field to accommodate an athletics track (without physically having one, at least width wise). 2 main stands will go the length of the field at 20,000. 

Then once the city is ready to bid for a Commonwealth Games again, you can build 2 stands on either goal ends, providing that minimum of 40,000.


----------



## JYDA

IMPACT STADIUM EXPANSION DELAYED; SOME MLS GAMES MOVED TO OLYMPIC STADIUM

MONTREAL -- The Montreal Impact won't be starting their inaugural Major League Soccer campaign on home turf.

The Canadian soccer club, set to join Toronto FC and the Vancouver Whitecaps in the MLS next season, announced Sunday that the expansion of Saputo Stadium has been delayed.

The Impact have $23 million in government funding to complete the project, but were unable to find a suitable builder.

Originally scheduled to be completed next spring, the project now won't be finished until the summer of 2012.

That means the Impact will have to play some of their first games in North American's top league, including the team's home opener, at cavernous Olympic Stadium.

"The cost was globally too high," Montreal Impact President Joey Saputo said in a statement. "It is not a question for us to exceed the total public money awarded for the expansion project.

"We have worked hard over the last few weeks with the different people involved to find solutions to expand our stadium to 20,000 seats, under a roof, while respecting the initial budget."

A second bidding process for the stadium's expansion will be undertaken next month. Saputo Stadium's current capacity is 13,000.

"We had the option to start the season on the road or to look for an alternative," Saputo added. "We prefer to play a few matches at Olympic Stadium. We want all games to be an event, especially our first game in MLS in Montreal."

http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=371913




The part the media won't tell you is that the construction industry in Montreal is run by the mob. Contract shake downs and rigged bidding are par for the course so it's hardly surprising to see the cost escalate way over reasonable estimates.


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## isaidso

Lord David said:


> Halifax should use a stadium which has a large enough field to accommodate an athletics track (without physically having one, at least width wise). 2 main stands will go the length of the field at 20,000.
> 
> Then once the city is ready to bid for a Commonwealth Games again, you can build 2 stands on either goal ends, providing that minimum of 40,000.


Why build a stadium for an athletics event that might happen just once in its life span? Lets face it, a Halifax stadium would be used primarily for football (Canadian). It's this sport's needs that need to be satisfied first. No athletics track, it completely ruins the football experience!


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## Lord David

^^ Well then add the provision that the field can be altered for Athletics then.


----------



## mattec

carnifex2005 said:


> 3D view of Stade Saputo and their season ticket prices. Warning, there is an crowd chant audio clip that autoplays. You can turn that off in the upper right hand corner.


seems a bit underwhelming when compared to the newer MLS venues that have been or are being built.


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## Benn

Also much cheaper in terms of construction costs, so it makes sense to me. It will be nice enough, but not like New York, Kansas City or the like.


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## adeaide

*Winnipeg , New Blue Bombers Stadium*


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## koolio

That is not the correct render for the blue bombers stadium.


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## adeaide

*How about these pictures?*


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## blacktrojan3921

isaidso said:


> We already have a pro football team, thanks. The oldest pro sports team on the continent, at that. The NFL can go to Mexico if they want.


Have you seen the attendance record at Argo games? XD 20,000-25,000 does not equally spell success for a city of 4 million people.


----------



## warpus

drowningman666 said:


> how popular are football and soccer in Canada ??


Believe it or not, but soccer is the #1 sport played in Canada, recently edging out hockey.


----------



## Nate

blacktrojan3921 said:


> Have you seen the attendance record at Argo games? XD 20,000-25,000 does not equally spell success for a city of 4 million people.


And their record for the NFL games so far have also been less than stellar. Yes, it's expensive, but if there were that many diehard NFL supporters there, cost wouldn't have kept them away, since this is likely seen as a test of the market by upper NFL brass. I just think Toronto isn't much of a football city.

Also if you compare the Blue Jays' attendance against other teams in the states (some with much smaller population bases), they are doing pretty horribly there too. 

That and the Argos haven't really had great dates for their games, and nor have they had a successful team in a while. But if you look back at Montreal back in the day, or Vancouver a couple years ago, those 2 were doing far worse than the present Argos, and now they are both strong franchises, so who knows what will happen.



warpus said:


> Believe it or not, but soccer is the #1 sport played in Canada, recently edging out hockey.


Yes, it's #1 for participation, but that participation takes a divebomb in the older groups. It's also taken the least seriously. 

People would think it's normal to have 3 practices a week for hockey, but to suggest that many for soccer would have most mothers annoyed. It's #1 because it is by far the cheapest and therefore the most accessable. It's the "fun" participation sport.

At least that's the attitude around here.


----------



## EastVanMark

adeaide said:


>


Wrong again. That rendering has since been changed (that roof is no longer in the plans) :cheers1:
Here is the latest (and current render)
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2010/08/25/bombers-stadium-new.jpg


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## JYDA

*Ford nixes Toronto’s nascent bid for 2020 Summer Olympics *PATRICK WHITE 
From Friday's Globe and Mail 
Published Thursday, Aug. 11, 2011 3:47PM EDT
Last updated Thursday, Aug. 11, 2011 8:26PM EDT
Mayor Rob Ford has vetoed efforts to land the 2020 Olympics in Toronto out of cost concerns, despite assurances the bid would have come at no cost to city taxpayers.

The mayor’s office confirmed Thursday that Mr. Ford nixed a nascent summer Olympic bid that carried the support of Premier Dalton McGuinty and the Canadian Olympic Committee.

“It’d be nice. If it were maybe two, three, four years down the road, it’d be nice,” said the mayor’s brother, Councillor Doug Ford. “But it’s not feasible right now.”

That essentially kills an eight-week, behind-the-scenes effort led by Bob Richardson, head of the Devon Group public relations firm, to assemble broad-based support for an Olympic bid ahead of the International Olympic Committee’s Sept. 1 deadline.

An official bid needs the consent of city government and the domestic Olympic committee.

“The city made it pretty clear that they had tough fiscal challenges right now and were not in a position to support it right now,” said Mr. Richardson, a key part of Toronto’s failed 2008 Olympic bid and winning push for the 2015 Pan-Am Games. 

The city’s strained finances have become a singular preoccupation of city councillors as they grapple with a $774-million deficit. But Mr. Richardson said that the financial onus would have rested largely on the private sector. The proposal submitted to the mayor’s office carried no price tag because the IOC doesn’t require a full financial plan until February.

“We viewed the September to February period as the time you do your financial homework and there were all kinds of off-ramps so that if the numbers were too big governments could pull out,” he said. “The upfront costs for the first two or three years are minimal. There would be support from the private sector with something from the federal and provincial governments. We would not have been looking for dollars from the taxpayers of the City of Toronto in that short period of time.”

Mr. Richardson had quietly assembled support from a wide base of influential Torontonians, including former premiers David Petersen and Mike Harris, businessman Paul Godfrey, Olympian Marnie McBean and conservative radio host John Tory.

“I believe these kinds of bids are well worth exploring,” said Mr. Tory, chair of the Greater Toronto CivicAction Alliance, on his radio show Thursday afternoon. “But the mayor has said no and I kind of understand where he was coming from in terms of his current preoccupation. But he wasn’t being asked to sign a cheque now. If he wanted to say no to a cheque later, fine. Maybe he decided it was better if this thing didn’t get any momentum up.”

The bridesmaid for 1996 and 2008 Olympic bids, Toronto’s chances for 2020 looked promising. Mr. Richardson said the U.S. is not expected to endorse a candidate and that Rio de Janeiro’s winning 2016 submission cancelled out chances for another South American city.

“We’d almost be the candidate of the hemisphere,” he said. “It was a very, very open race and we thought a strong North American candidate could win.”

What’s more, the 2015 Pan-Am Games have long been seen as an Olympic audition for Toronto. That event is expected to cost the city nearly $100-million.

“That’s something in our favour, the Pan-Am facilities might be adaptable to the Olympics in some cases,” said Deputy Mayor Doug Holyday. “But there’s still financial risk and cost involved in getting the bid, preparing the bid, and then running the event. In our situation right now, we’re not able to proceed and I think it’s the wrong time.”

Rome, Madrid and Tokyo have announced submissions. Turkey and Qatar are also expected to join the race, according to reports.

The IOC will make its final decision Sept. 7, 2013.

Crestfallen as he was, Mr. Richardson said he wasn’t laying blame on any level of government.

“We had a very short period to talk to governments, it’s a very difficult fiscal period of time and we just weren’t able to put together the domestic position,” he said. “I’m not condemning anybody. It was a good idea, we just ran out of runway.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-bid-for-2020-summer-olympics/article2126777/


I guess if Qatar bids then there's not much point anyway. Tough to outbribe that lot.


----------



## Lord David

^^ Sucks because this is their best time, what with only 4 bidders so far and the US not bidding.

Rome is compounded by debt of over 1 trillion and couldn't possibly host without spending and adding to their debt.

Madrid is in a similar boat.

Tokyo is cleaning up from the March Earthquake and Tsunami and could get some sympathy votes if they market their bid as such, but Pyenongchang winning the 2018 Winter Olympics makes their chances unlikely.

Istanbul is another new frontier like Rio, unsure if the IOC want to do that risk another time. Has past bids as a good indication of their bid dedication, reasonable chance of getting the games based on that.

And then we have Toronto, if Toronto did bid, we'd be looking at a safe, past nation/region to have the games again, with minimal financial risk and good support from the local and national population.


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## koolio

I'm glad we are not bidding. I don't want canada to be trillions in debt like the rest of those countries. These private parties saying how it wouldn't cost the city anything are a joke. They know that all levels of government will be neck deep in debt when all is said and done.


----------



## Nate

koolio said:


> I'm glad we are not bidding. I don't want canada to be trillions in debt like the rest of those countries. These private parties saying how it wouldn't cost the city anything are a joke. They know that all levels of government will be neck deep in debt when all is said and done.


The Beijing Olympics (the most expensive to date) was around 45 Billion. Trillion would definitely be a far stretch even for a hyperbole...

In any case, I'm sort of on the fence about this... it would be nice to host another one, but Toronto/Ontario isn't exactly in the best place right now economically speaking.


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## Lord David

^^ And is Rome? Madrid? Tokyo?

As far as we know only Istanbul seems to be in reasonable economic straits. So what would prevent Toronto from bidding? Is it because they're already paying for that 2015 Pan American Games? Please...


----------



## Nate

Lord David said:


> ^^ And is Rome? Madrid? Tokyo?
> 
> As far as we know only Istanbul seems to be in reasonable economic straits. So what would prevent Toronto from bidding? Is it because they're already paying for that 2015 Pan American Games? Please...


Yes... but in general Canada has been a bit more fiscally conservative that those other countries. Although it is true, almost everywhere in the world (that normally hosts) is in somewhat of a financial quagmire.


----------



## isaidso

EastVanMark said:


> Wrong again. That rendering has since been changed (that roof is no longer in the plans) :cheers1:
> Here is the latest (and current render)
> http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2010/08/25/bombers-stadium-new.jpg


The rest is staying the same though: sunken bowl, 2 decks, 33,422 seats?


----------



## isaidso

warpus said:


> Believe it or not, but soccer is the #1 sport played in Canada, recently edging out hockey.


That's quite a misleading statement in that it would lead someone to believe that soccer is the #1 sport in Canada. Hockey, football, and baseball still have far more clout in Canada than soccer does. Basketball is the only Canadian sport that soccer might have eclipsed, but even that is a close call.


----------



## isaidso

blacktrojan3921 said:


> XD 20,000-25,000 does not equally spell success for a city of 4 million people.


And someone thinks this lousy football market should get yet another football team. :rofl:


----------



## krnboy1009

isaidso said:


> And someone thinks this lousy football market should get yet another football team. :rofl:


But its NFL, Toronto seems to only care about the top of the cream league teams. hence, Marlies draw awful, but Leafs have undying support.


----------



## carnifex2005

krnboy1009 said:


> But its NFL, Toronto seems to only care about the top of the cream league teams. hence, Marlies draw awful, but Leafs have undying support.


Not really. Toronto don't even sell out the Buffalo games when they come and they play only in a 54,000 stadium. Rogers have had to give out thousands of freebees for those games. It's pretty hilarious in hindsight.


----------



## KingmanIII

carnifex2005 said:


> Not really. Toronto don't even sell out the Buffalo games when they come and they play only in a 54,000 stadium. Rogers have had to give out thousands of freebees for those games. It's pretty hilarious in hindsight.


It's partially due to the fact that Bills fans are largely a blue-collar bunch; you go from paying USD $50-75/ticket to damn-near USD $200 -- Charles Barkley says it best:


----------



## Cjones2451

*OTTAWA New Frank Clair Stadium -(24,000)*

This has been dragging on for years and years it seems, but it looks like they will renovate this Stadium and redevelop the whole Landsdowne Park and have a 24,000 seat stadium for CFL football and a USL Soccer team in 2014 :cheers:











These stands are supposed to be covered in all natural wood, very cool looking


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## isaidso

The new stand looks great, but I hate that the stands don't mirror each other and that the stands don't wrap around the end zones.


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## Cjones2451

Here are some more renderings

































The North side stands also have a 10,000 seat hocley arena in them as well


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## Cjones2451

isaidso - I think b/c they are renovating an existing stadium and the fact that the north side stands have the arena built into them makes that difficult. I think the one end zone was going to be open for a stage or something like that. They are saying it is expandable for big events like Grey Cup or if demand warrants it


----------



## koolio

In some of the renders, it looks like the North Stand roof will also be covered with wood and have a slightly curved look. Is that right or just a rendering illusion?


----------



## elly63

BC Place Roof Closed - September 23/2011


BC Place - September 24/2011


BC Place Last Shot of Indoor Webcam (September 20/2011) Before Grand Opening


----------



## elly63

New Winnipeg Stadium News Release
September 21, 2011
Virtual Venue Demo

The future home of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and the University of Manitoba Bisons football team is scheduled to open the summer of 2012 on the campus of the University of Manitoba. The stadium will be capable of hosting large-scale, sports and entertainment events as well as more intimate gatherings. Seating capacity will be 33,500, with the ability of the stadium to expand to more than 40,000 seats.



Of the many amenities Thompson highlighted, the stadium will feature two 30-feet high by 110-feet wide video boards. All washrooms will be audio-equipped and 250 video monitors throughout the stadium will ensure no plays are missed. There will be twice as many washrooms than the current facility, 28 in all and split evenly between men’s and women’s. All washrooms will be wheelchair accessible. Six elevators, more leg room and a larger, modern design will offer overall a much more pleasant stadium experience.

“We are hitting affordability, comfort and accessibility on all levels, including an expanded family section, a design that provides fans with the convenience of a main-concourse level entry, and price points for every Manitoban,” Thompson said. “Our introductory price point for season tickets is just $17.90 per game. This was the most important decision we made – fair pricing for fans and the community.”

Thompson also provided updates on premium seating sales at the new stadium. “Based on the continued strong backing of our corporate community partners, we are announcing today that the full inventory of 46 luxury suites, the two suite level Blue & Gold Suites and the 100-level loges are sold out. At this time, interested parties can be added to a waiting list at [email protected].”

Ossama AbouZeid, WFC Interim CEO, spoke about the stadium construction site at the University of Manitoba. “I’m very pleased to announce that construction for Stadium 2012 is on target and on budget,” AbouZeid said. “We look forward to opening a first-class facility next summer that will make Manitobans and Winnipeggers proud.”


View without roof

*Stadium Facts*

- Total seating capacity is 33,500 seats, with the ability for the new stadium to expand to 40,000 for major events, including Grey Cup and other major international events and concerts.
- The stadium has a sunken bowl design, where the playing field dips into the ground 25 feet below the main concourse.
- Two 30-feet high by 110-feet wide video boards - one behind each end zone.
- Over 250 video monitors throughout the stadium.
- There will be six elevators.
- There will be 28 washrooms - which is 50% more than in the current stadium. 
- All washrooms will be wheelchair accessible.
- The new stadium will be smoke-free.
- All of our seats will have additional leg room compared to the current stadium - approximately 100% more legroom.
- All seats will be outfitted with cup holders.
- All stairways and aisles will have handrails for safety and ease of use.
- There will be a 4,000-square foot feature retail store that will be open year-round.


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> That's quite a misleading statement in that it would lead someone to believe that soccer is the #1 sport in Canada. Hockey, football, and baseball still have far more clout in Canada than soccer does. Basketball is the only Canadian sport that soccer might have eclipsed, but even that is a close call.


Soccer is the number one participation sport in Canada by a fair margin, that's not to say it is the most popular for viewing or attendance. 

Little known fact, a few years ago the CFL had the sixth highest average game attendance of *any* league in the world. It's still doing well but other leagues have improved as well.


----------



## elly63

Hamilton getting new stadium – north stands being demolished
Joey Coleman August/2011 with files from Nicole MacIntyre thespec.com

Hamilton’s getting an *entirely new* football stadium.


Artist's conception of the redeveloped south stands at Ivor Wynne Stadium. The design is subject to change. 
Shawn Lovegrove/Image courtesy of the City of Hamilton

In a report provided to Council by email late this afternoon, the City Manager’s office informed Council that:

In the Spring of 2011 staff learned that the grade on the upper tier of the North Stands is such that it cannot accommodate seats with backs. To be able to renovate to include seats with backs in the upper tier would require a complete rebuild of this section. Following this information, Infrastructure Ontario undertook an exercise to provide a cost estimate for three North Stand options. These options were: 1) a renovation to meet current Building Code; 2) a renovation to meet current Building Code plus accommodating seats with backs on the upper tier; and 3) a new North Stands.

The three options listed above were discussed at a meeting in June 2011 with senior staff from Infrastructure Ontario, Toronto 2015, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the City, and a decision was made to pursue Opt!on 3 (a new North Stands).

Given the direction to build a new North Stands, Infrastructure Ontario has modified the Request for Proposal (RFP) language to reflect *construction of a brand new 22,500 seat stadium*. The project is still expected to meet its *$155-million budget*.

Here are some very early renders:


----------



## elly63

Toronto 2015 Pan/Parapan American Games Stadia And Velodrome Projects Attract Industry Interest
August 12, 2011

TORONTO – Infrastructure Ontario announced today three teams that have been short-listed to design, build and finance three Toronto 2015 Pan/Parapan American Games venues.

The project is comprised of two stadiums and a velodrome including:
the proposed Ivor Wynne Stadium which will be one of the host venues for soccer;
the proposed velodrome which will host the track cycling competition; and
the proposed York University stadium which will host the athletics competitions.

Based on the request for qualifications process that began in February 2011, the three teams short-listed for the request for proposals stage for the stadia and velodrome projects include:

Bird/Turner Stadium Co.
Developer: Bird/Turner Joint Venture
Design: Populous and Kasian Architecture
Construction: Bird Design-Build Construction / Turner Construction Company
Financial Advisor: Investec / HOCHTIEF PPP Solutions

Ontario Sports Solutions
Developer: Bouygues Building Canada Inc. and kenaidan Contracting Ltd.
Design: Cannon Design / Faulkner Browns Architects / Arup Associates
Construction: Bouygues Building Canada Inc. / Kenaidan Contracting Ltd.
Financial Advisor: National Bank

United Sports
Developer: Laing O’Rourke / Bondfield Construction Company Limited
Design: ZAS Architects / HKS Architects
Construction: Laing O’Rourke / Bondfield Construction Company Limited
Financial Advisor: Rocklynn Capital Inc. / KPMG LLP

Companies were selected based on their development, design, construction and financial capacity to undertake projects of this size and complexity. The three short-listed companies will be invited to respond to a request for proposals, expected to be issued within the next several weeks. The projects will provide a sizable stimulus to Ontario’s economy by directly and indirectly creating and supporting hundreds of jobs.

Infrastructure Ontario and TO2015 are working with municipalities in the Greater Golden Horseshoe, universities and provincial agencies to procure and deliver the Athletes’ Village and Games venues, such as the stadia and velodrome facilities.


----------



## elly63

Molson Stadium toast of the CFL
Taylor Field, Ivor Wynne, Rogers Centre also provide great game-day experiences
Mike Beamish, Vancouver Sun September 14, 2011

VANCOUVER — With the Empire Field, stadium-in-a-can experience behind us, we look forward to the 21st-century creature comforts of refurbished BC Place Stadium in two weeks’ time. And, at a Tiffany’s-style price tag of $585 million, there’d better be lots of them.

Will it become our favourite place to catch a CFL game? Hard to say, until we’ve seen it.

For now, we submit our rankings of the best game-day experiences for fans and media in the CFL, knowing that BC Place/Telus Field could change the dynamic dramatically.

*1. Percival Molson Stadium (Montreal)*

The climb to the stadium on the McGill University campus, along the steep, leafy sidewalks of downtown Montreal, below Mont Royal, is a sybaritic experience. Love the backdrop of the Montreal skyline and the familiar voice of bilingual house announcer Jacques Moreau, whose joie de vivre following an Alouettes’ first down is infectious. It may be the CFL’s smallest cathedral (just over 25,000 seats), but Montreal football fanatics regard Molson Stadium with some of the same endearment Cubs fans hold for Wrigley Field.

*2. Mosaic Stadium at Taylor Field (Regina)*

Does anyone have more fun than Roughrider fans? Hard to find anyone here without a melon for a headpiece, green war paint or a giant foam finger. In fact, I believe you’re barred entry if you’re not wearing a shade of clothing that can’t be traced to a leprechaun. The pre-game gathering spot – featuring beer, barbecue and country music – is one giant tailgate party without the cars. Verbal abuse is heaped on opponents, but many visiting players seem to love it. It’s a reminder of the cacophonous U.S. college football atmosphere they left behind.

*3. Ivor Wynne Stadium (Hamilton)*

Ivor Wynne is a throwback to football’s prehistoric past, when the game was played by working-class heroes in the shadows of steel mills, smokestacks and mine tailings.

The 81-year-old structure is unvarnished, un-chic and gritty, like The Hammer itself. About to face the wrecking ball, its old bones will go the way of leather helmets. Still, the new Ivor Wynne will retain the same footprint and the unabashedly industrial feel, artfully fusing Ticat glories past with the future, as the familiar stacks and fires of Steeltown illuminate the night sky.

*4. Rogers Centre (Toronto)*

The home of the Blue Jays, the Argos and monster-truck pulls gets a bad rap. Architect Rob Robbie’s giant parking garage leaves many sports fans cold, but never when it comes to body temperature.

While the stadium’s footprint makes the place anything but intimate, and far from ideal as a football playground, the Argos go the extra mile to make it a worthwhile fan experience. If only the football team was up to the quality of the game presentation and their kickin’ band, the Argo-Notes. In terms of a working press environment, it’s first-rate, especially with the best press box announcer in the land, Brian Snelgrove, on hand.

*5. Commonwealth Stadium (Edmonton)*

Perhaps no Canadian city has got more bang for its stadium bucks than Edmonton. The ravages of time and weather are lethal to a 60,000-seat amphitheatre in northern Alberta.

Still, Commonwealth has held up surprisingly well, since its opening in 1978. It also scores points for being near light-rail transit. Nonetheless, as much as we admire Albertans for their thrift when it comes to large construction projects, there was no attempt to make any kind of statement with Commonwealth. Charmless, but it does the job.

*6. McMahon Stadium, Calgary*

By the sheer numbers, and the fact they’re usually searing Alberta beef, Stampeder fans provide the best tailgate experience in the CFL.

But the 50-year-old stadium itself, though well-kept and maintained, is being left in the dust by newer structures. The elevator to the press box and suites must be the oldest lift in the West. The hours, totalling weeks over the course of a reporter’s career, riding it to the top represent precious time that can never be recovered.

The saving grace is watching a cowgirl ride a horse after every Stampeder touchdown.
*
7. BC Place, Vancouver (before reconstruction)*

Boiling in summer, freezing in the fall, the dome kept the good weather out and the bad weather in. Hermetically sealed, it was spiritually and esthetically cold, doing its best to disguise the fact it was situated in one of the world’s most beautiful cities.

At least Empire Field reminded us that its setting was the best there ever was for a gladiatorial extravaganza. With a new lightness and airiness, however, BC Place gives promise of improving on what was right about Empire, while eliminating the nagging little details that were wrong.

*8. Canad Inns Stadium (Winnipeg)*

Old can be quaint. But in this case, cuteness borders on desolation. Never warmed to the place after being locked in after a game. Nearly turned into a Popsicle another time, waiting for a cab … But relief is only months away.

A new 33,500-seat stadium, with a corrugated metal roof, restaurant, 52 suites, walk of fame, parking garage and other amenities is in an accelerated construction stage on the University of Manitoba campus. Bombers could go from worst-to-first, not only in the standings, but also in stadium appeal and iconic architecture.


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## elly63

Good general article on the financial side to running a stadium - elly63

Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton Sep 01 2011 theSpec.com

At first blush, it all seems counterintuitive.

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”

The Tiger-Cats need to derive $10 million per year, or roughly $1 million per game, from ticket sales. Mitchell, bound by a confidentiality clause, would not comment on the exact capacity of the new stadium. But assuming the 22,500 figure is accurate, at an average $50 per ticket, the Cats will cover the $10 million as long as they sell out most games.

And a smaller stadium actually helps dramatically with that. Increasing the demand for tickets because there is a limited supply should translate into more season ticket holders than the current number, estimated to be slightly under 15,000. The Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox have always operated that way because of their old, small stadiums, but in 1990 the Baltimore Orioles became the first professional sports team to deliberately build a new stadium smaller than their old one. That forces fans to buy season’s tickets for fear that they won’t be able to get the tickets for games they really want. Then, weather and the competitive state of the team don’t affect sales as profoundly. The Montreal Alouettes had the same situation with the 20,000-seat Molson Stadium, and sold out every game for years.

The Ticats average between 23,000 and 24,000 spectators per game but about 20 per cent of them enjoy complimentary tickets, significantly lower than the figure from three years ago but still nearly double the industry standard. Tightening up on contra (tickets instead of cash, paid for services) and special group sales will allow the Cats to realize full income from a far greater percentage of the seats.

“So the biggest casualty in the capacity reduction will be those contra deals and big corporate buys,” Mitchell said.

The break-even point for most CFL teams is believed to be about $15 million in total annual income. With recent huge increases in TV viewership, broadcast revenues are expected to double or triple in the next couple of years, taking a big bite out of the $5 million income required beyond ticket sales. While the number of high-rent corporate boxes and club seats slated for the new stadium have not been revealed, there are going to be at least twice as many as there are now, adding more income potential to the Cats’ balance sheet.

“And clearly, we’ll have major increased revenue from concessions and merchandising because of an enhanced stadium experience,” Mitchell says. “It will also be a better experience for our corporate partners.”

The Ticats plan to cap individual season ticket sales at between 17,000 and 18,000. Season’s tickets prices for 2011 range from $14 per game in the end zone to $160 for the box seats at midfield. Those prices are expected to rise by two per cent next year.

But the team announced Wednesday that season’s tickets for 2012, the last season at Ivor Wynne, would cost the same as tickets for 2014, the first season in the new stadium.

“We wanted to nip in the bud all the talk that ‘I won’t be able to go to the new stadium because I can’t afford it,’” Mitchell explained.

Mitchell also said that the $1.3 million rent the Cats will pay the city in the new stadium will be the highest in the CFL and that the more income the club makes, the more the city will make on their rake-off of the profit, over and above the rental agreement.

And, he says, the seating capacity on opening day doesn’t have to remain that way. He wouldn’t comment directly, but the configuration of the new stadium has to include room for enough temporary seating to reach the 40,000 minimum required to play host to a Grey Cup Game.

“Infrastructure Ontario will deliver a great stadium, but obviously there’d be nothing stopping us, as far as far as post-Pan Am Games go, from adding more seating ourselves.”


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## sbutlik

*Stade Saputo - large renders*


























































http://www.praa.qc.ca/en/projects/sports-and-recreation/saputo-stadium.html


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## CVTower

I found this article on facebook concerning a possible new stadium in Montreal. I don't speak or read any French, so I don't know what the main idea of the article is

http://tvasports.ca/tvasports/baseball/archives/2011/10/20111005-162842.html


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## trebor204

Using google Translate:

Mario Morissette | Agency QMI




After years of prevarication in choosing a site, the leaders of Baseball Quebec filed last Friday with the Ministry of Education, Recreation and Sport plans for a project to build a stadium baseball combined with a national training center.

The land targeted for the erection of this infrastructure are located on street corners and Mill Bridge, near the Lachine Canal.

The lots are owned by Canada Lands Company and the Port of Montreal, an area covered by extensive renovation work.

The preliminary cost of the project eligible for the Development Fund of sport and physical activity are hovering around $ 50 million.

The deadline to submit a grant application for Phase II of the program was September 30.

About a third of the amount would be spent on infrastructure development, as access roads, sewers and other. The City of Montreal could be called to appear in the rectangle of batting!

"We have been discussing five or six years, but this is the first time a specific request is made to the Quebec government," said Maxime Lamarche, director of marketing and events in Baseball Quebec.

"We do not think just to build a baseball stadium, but a multifunctional use for twelve months a year. In breaking down the cost estimates, only half of the subsidy required would be devoted to the erection of the stadium. "

Lamarche said that the minor baseball is growing in membership in recent years.

"We noted an increase in enrollment by 7% last season, and 20% in four years. Our sports studies programs are cramped! There is a lack of space, whether the Academy of Baseball Canada (active center Claude-Robillard) or all high school programs that include about 500 players in the province. "

Professional Baseball

According to the plans prepared by the architectural firm Smith, Squire and Partners and the engineering group SM, the stadium would have between 5000 and 6000 seats. Sport lived together with the component of outdoor performances and community areas are managed for recreational activities in this sector.

A club professional baseball minor would be the main tenant of the stadium.

Stakeholders and business working for several years to implement a CanAm League club in the metropolis. Sites in Longueuil, in the borough and two on the North Shore had been scrutinized.

"No professional baseball stadium was built in Montreal in 1928 from DeLorimier! Baseball was not the primary purpose of the Jarry Park or the Olympic Stadium. I think the CanAm is a better option than the affiliated minor league baseball. AA level in Montreal, I do not believe it, "slice Lamarche, a former employee and player of the Quebec Capitales.

The cost of acquiring a minor league baseball franchise affiliated is no longer within reach of every budget.

Last week, the farm team of the New York Yankees in the league New York / Penn (League of recruits, short season), stationed at Staten Island (a suburb of New York) was sold for $ 11 million USD .


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## Hieber

Saputo and BMO field really have to do something about the exposed support columns :S 

And BMO field really needs to close up the corners with more seats and slap a roof on the arena. It is actually such a simple and ugly stadium if you think about it.


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## isaidso

Soccer is an emerging sport in Canada. It's unrealistic to expect Canada to be building elaborate expensive stadia for soccer. There's only enough money in Canadian soccer.


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## JYDA

Stade Saputo construction update


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## carnifex2005

Sounds like this is in the very early stages, but it definitely send ripples through the NHL if it goes through.

19,500 SEAT ARENA POSSIBLE FOR MARKHAM, ONTARIO

It needs to be said up front, and quite emphatically, that the NHL has no plans to put a second franchise in southern Ontario.

But if the league's view on that should ever change, there is a potential 19,500-seat arena project in Markham, Ont., that could one day turn out to be a viable option.

Sources tell TSN that Graeme Roustan, the chairman of the hockey equipment company, Bauer, who also moonlights as an arena builder, and Toronto-area land developer Rudy Bratty, ranked in 2010 by Canadian Business Magazine as the 62nd richest man in Canada with a net worth of $940 million, are working together in a massive real estate venture that includes a 19,500-seat facility that they hope will be built regardless of the NHL interest, or lack thereof, in southern Ontario.


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## isaidso

Would this be used for by the OHL then? As big as hockey is in Toronto, the Maple Leafs are the only hockey team that manages good attendance. 19,500 seems a bit big.


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## Lord David

So what, we can see 3 major arenas in a Toronto 2024 Olympics bid?

Toronto - Air Canada Centre
Hamilton - Copps Coliseum
Markham - New Arena


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## repin

*Regina*


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## Neda Say

is this what I think it is!?


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## isaidso

^^ It's likely a re-post of a former render. I think official renders are still quite a long way off. I hope they go for the 55,000 seater though.



Lord David said:


> So what, we can see 3 major arenas in a Toronto 2024 Olympics bid?
> 
> Toronto - Air Canada Centre
> Hamilton - Copps Coliseum
> Markham - New Arena


I'm asking because spending $400 million on an arena with no major tenant isn't going to happen. There are tons of arenas in the Greater Toronto Area already and we don't need 3 NHL sized ones for a 2024 Olympics bid.


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## Lord David

^^ Of course not. But having 3 (for say Basketball, Volleyball and Handball finals) will allow for the smaller arenas to be used for their preliminaries (not involving the group Canada and other major nations are in).


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## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> ^^ Of course not. But having 3 (for say Basketball, Volleyball and Handball finals) will allow for the smaller arenas to be used for their preliminaries (not involving the group Canada and other major nations are in).


So lets build a half billion dollar arena for two weeks of a potential Olympics?

Yah right.....

Might as well build a Domed 50,000 seat stadium for the Riders.....hno:


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## flashman

I've been hearing about an arena project for the Markham-Aurora area for over two years, but much of the speculation involved the Stronach family and land they hold in Aurora. The word was that a junior hockey team(Niagara Ice Dogs? Brampton Battalion? Belleville Bulls? Erie Otters?) would move to Newmarket and stay there while the new junior barn(roughly 5-6,000 cap.) was being built, then shift south.

This certainly trumps all that speculation. While Bauer are big players in the hockey world, Bratty certainly brings all sorts of clout to such a project with his property development track record and links in corporate and media circles. I would assume an arena deal would be at the forefront of a much broader commercial and residential project. It's a prosperous area to draw from and could be an inducement to have the Ontario government broaden commuter rail links to the north-east side of the city to match planned development from North York through Vaughan and into Barrie.

Doubt the smaller barn would get built if this deal goes through.


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## Lord David

Calvin W said:


> So lets build a half billion dollar arena for two weeks of a potential Olympics?
> 
> Yah right.....
> 
> Might as well build a Domed 50,000 seat stadium for the Riders.....hno:


Wrong! It would either be already built, or underconstruction. So therefore it would be a proposed venue for an Olympics bid.


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## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> Wrong! It would either be already built, or underconstruction. So therefore it would be a proposed venue for an Olympics bid.


To be used for two weeks then sit empty or used ny junior or minor league teams?

Let me put it this way, should Melbourne build another 100,000 seat stadium for another potential AFL team and a possible Melbourne Olympic bid?

No sane city or developer would do it...


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## Lord David

^^ Actually, Melbourne WOULD consider building another 100,000 seater stadium, to alleviate congestion of matches between Docklands Stadium (Etihad Stadium) and the MCG.

In fact, the stadium that preceded Docklands, Waverly Park, which was initially designed at 70,000 seats, would have been upgraded to 140,000, given the opportunity (which never eventuated).

Many still consider Docklands to be too small a replacement. 

Another large AFL stadium would be considered to permit more matches to be played on the same day when held in Melbourne, but the size would probably just be around the same size as Docklands.


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## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> Might as well build a Domed 50,000 seat stadium for the Riders.....hno:


That one has a decent chance of happening. I wouldn't be surprised if they go for 55,000.


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## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> That one has a decent chance of happening. I wouldn't be surprised if they go for 55,000.


Enough opposition that it is unlikely to ever happen. The people are for it until it comes down to actually paying for it. The rest of the province don't really want to pay for a stadium for Regina. Hard for Regina to come up with the cash to build it themselves.

So stalemate for now. But you never know. It may happen?


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## isaidso

Saskatchewan's growing wealthy, the population is expanding quickly, and the ever popular Riders are community owned. Stadia renewal is happening nation wide and the Riders can't play at Mosaic indefinitely. We'll just have to wait to see how it unfolds.

Perhaps they'll revisit that proposal from the First Nations group:


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## Neda Say

Wow! I dig it!


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## Cjones2451

*Ottawa Frank Clair Stadium*

Does anyone know what is happening with this? There was supposed to a "last" appeal by the Friends of Landsdowne heard today?
I really wish they could get going on this so we can have Ottawa back in the CFL and work on getting a 10th team. If that gets done look at the new/ refurbished stadia we would have

2010 - Molson Stadium upgraded to 25,012
2011 - BC Place completely renovated
2012 - New Winnipeg Stadium - 33,500 seats
2014 - New Ivor Wynne Stadium done and potentially Ottawa Frank Clair Stadium

I also believe Edmonton is replacing all the seats at Commonwealth too
If Regina can get a replacement for Mosiac by 2016 and Halifax can get their funding for a stadium for the FIFA Womens World Cup/ CFL franchise like they are hoping, that only leaves Calgary and Toronto with "older" stadiums.


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## isaidso

Ottawa? I have no idea other than Mark Cohen said they'd be playing in 2014 so it must be happening.

Talk from the Halifax municipality is that they will build a stadium with or without the FIFA women's world cup. It increasingly looks like Halifax will get that stadium they've been longing for.

Ottawa in 2014 (so says CFL comish)
Halifax in 2015-2016?

At this point, I'd be more surprised if it didn't happen. Maritimers love football. Putting a team out east is a no brainer. Maybe before the decade is out, we'll also see teams in Quebec City and Victoria.


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## Lord David

The CFL should expand.

Bring teams to Moncton, Halifax and Quebec City.

Victoria is possible, if one considers an expanded Centennial Stadium, or a purpose built new stadium.

Modernization of stadiums is a must, 25,000 seats (individual, no more bleachers) minimum, at least 1 video score board, press boxes and skyboxes, night time game lighting etc.


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## isaidso

Unfortunately, I doubt the Maritimes will get 2 teams. It will either go to Halifax or Moncton, not both. Victoria is the biggest population centre in the west without a team, but I'm not sure if they are ready for pro football.

Kelowna in the Okanagan Valley has interesting potential. They're just too small right now, but maybe in 2030.

What channel carried the Grey Cup in Australia?


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## Lord David

^^ None, well none of our free to air channels. We get the Superbowl here and Euro championship matches, but no CFL. I guess it would be on pay TV.

For a national football sport, CFL really does need to expand and become modern, the AFL is slowing expanding into new markets. Perhaps in 10-20 years time we'd be fielding as many teams as the NFL has.


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## Walbanger

^^ the CFL grew very differently to how the AFL did. You won't find a CFL in the future with 9 teams in one metro let alone 3.


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## isaidso

Lord David said:


> None, well none of our free to air channels. We get the Superbowl here and Euro championship matches, but no CFL. I guess it would be on pay TV.
> 
> For a national football sport, CFL really does need to expand and become modern, the AFL is slowing expanding into new markets. Perhaps in 10-20 years time we'd be fielding as many teams as the NFL has.


I believe it's on one of your pay television channels, but I can't remember which one. It's too bad that the Grey Cup isn't televised on free to air in Australia. I doubt you get much content from Canada and it would give Australians a rare glimpse into our culture. As far as expansion goes, the CFL will never develop the same way that sports leagues do in Australia or Europe. 

With the exception of the Saskatchewan Roughriders, teams are located in cities of 750,000 or more. The economic model for franchises makes the possibility of long term viability very difficult in cities significantly smaller than that. Ottawa and Quebec City are the only places without a team that are deemed large enough to support a CFL franchise.

Franchises can work in smaller places like Halifax, but it becomes a much riskier proposition. Does Halifax have a large enough corporate base? Can they average 25,000/game which is considered the break even point? Can they draw 45,000 when hosting a Grey Cup? Could Halifax put on a decent Grey Cup festival and parade? Would a Halifax team increase broadcast revenues enough to make it worthwhile for the CFL? Would the admittance of another small market team make the CFL appear more minor league and thus damage the image of the league in the eyes of fans in the other markets?

There is no way that the league will go to 16-20 teams as it would mean smaller teams bringing in less money than the ones that exist today. Big market teams like Montreal, Vancouver, and Toronto would find it increasingly difficult to market the product in their respective markets. They don't want teams setting up in places like Moncton or Kelowna. They want to keep the CFL a big city league, or as close to that as possible. 

It's a difficult bridge to gap for the CFL. In the eyes of the big market teams, the league is too minor league already because it has teams in places like Winnipeg and Regina. The reality is that it's those small market teams that are carrying the whole league. Much like Melbourne carries the AFL, it's these small cities where devotion to the Canadian Football League is greatest. 

Expansion must happen though. 8 teams is just not going to cut it going forward and the CFL needs to become a truly national league. That means plugging the glaring holes that exist: no team in the capital, no team in the Maritimes, and only 1 team each in two heavily populated provinces: Quebec and BC.

The CFL's smartest course is to limit expansion to a few choice cities: Ottawa, Quebec City, and Halifax. It's then to develop these small market teams to the point where they're major league franchises that just happen to be based in minor league markets. If it fails, people in places like Toronto will stop supporting the league altogether.

Losing the Toronto market is not an option for the CFL. The Toronto Argonauts are the oldest professional sports team in north America and the Toronto area is home to corporate Canada, most of the nation's media, and almost 25% of the national population. If Toronto fails, Hamilton would likely follow. If that happens, the entire Eastern Conference is in peril. The CFL has many strengths, but Toronto is its achilles heel.


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## isaidso

There are some great shots of newly renovated BC Place in here, so I'll make an exception and post this video:

*2011 Grey Cup, BC Place Stadium*





I love love love this league...nice stadium too! kay:


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## Lord David

Walbanger said:


> ^^ the CFL grew very differently to how the AFL did. You won't find a CFL in the future with 9 teams in one metro let alone 3.


No of course not, but by adding more teams in Provincial cities, you could create local derby's and such, as well as rightfully expanding the game.


----------



## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> No of course not, but by adding more teams in Provincial cities, you could create local derby's and such, as well as rightfully expanding the game.



Well true be told, the CFL will never be the Canadian equal to the NFL, and that is the way it should be. The CFL as is with a few more teams, 12 max for the forseeable future will be just about right. Expanding to "provincial cities" is not a viable future for the league.

AFL going to expand to provincial cities? Other tha Tasmania and Canberra, what other cities could successfully run a team? Darwin? Bendigo? Ballarat? Townsville?


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## Walbanger

^^ True. The AFL will have a 3rd team in Perth before one in Newcastle, Darwin, Townsville etc. North Melbourne think they are going to do something in Ballarat but they will pushed to extinction or Tasmania after the next TV rights contract is up.


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## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> Well true be told, the CFL will never be the Canadian equal to the NFL, *and that is the way it should be.*


And why is that? It used to be every bit the equivalent; there's no reason why it couldn't get back there. With the exception of Toronto, the CFL is still hugely popular in this country.


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## Lord David

Calvin W said:


> Well true be told, the CFL will never be the Canadian equal to the NFL, and that is the way it should be. The CFL as is with a few more teams, 12 max for the forseeable future will be just about right. Expanding to "provincial cities" is not a viable future for the league.
> 
> AFL going to expand to _interstate_ cities? Other tha Tasmania and Canberra, what other cities could successfully run a team? Darwin? Bendigo? Ballarat? Townsville?


Darwin _could_ host a team since Aussie Rules is popular there, but the small population couldn't possibly invest in a major stadium or support it.

Bendigo and Ballarat could support teams, but the question of a stadium (proper AFL standard) is always the key. They do have teams in the Victorian Football League though.


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## koolio

Canada has the population to support a 20 team CFL but unfortunately the most populous part of the country (Southern Ontario) has little to no interest in the league anymore. Given that, I think 12 teams is the goal that the league should really aim for if they are even remotely ambitious. Ottawa and an Atlantic Canada team should be a given, taking the league to 10 teams. Apart from that, Quebec City, for all intents and purposes, should have a team. Football has grown a lot in popularity in the province and the city in particular. Unfortunately I think Laval University holds quite a bit of sway within the city and I don't think they want a professional football team to compete with their football program. In addition to QC, I would say that Victoria should be granted a team. It may not be financially viable right away but it can be a solid fixture in the future. It will increase the interest in the sport within the province by providing the Lions with a natural rival. 

Unfortunately apart from those two cities, I really do not see any cities that will be even close to being viable within the next 20 or so years. Until/Unless the league becomes popular in Southern Ontario, 12 teams seems to be the potential maximum.


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## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> Darwin _could_ host a team since Aussie Rules is popular there, but the small population couldn't possibly invest in a major stadium or support it.
> 
> Bendigo and Ballarat could support teams, but the question of a stadium (proper AFL standard) is always the key. They do have teams in the Victorian Football League though.


VFL is great as a junior/minor league....Canada has a couple of junior/college leagues in Football as well. Many popular teams. 

No way Darwin will have a teamin your or my life time. 10,000 people turning up weekly won't cut it. A few Victorian teams struggle at the gate to survive. Luckily the league has good tv revenue which helps support a number of teams.


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## Lord David

^^ But Aussie Rules is HUGELY popular in the Northern Territory.

Assuming someone helps in funding their stadium, the crowds will come, eventually.

Say 10,000 home fans, and a couple of 1,000 away fans.


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## Neda Say

I'd be more than glad to just have Ottawa Back alongside a team in either Halifax or Moncton! Then if Quebec City could join it would be fun for Quebec fans and a rivalry Victoria/Vancouver would be cherry on top!


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## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> ^^ But Aussie Rules is HUGELY popular in the Northern Territory.
> 
> Assuming someone helps in funding their stadium, the crowds will come, eventually.
> 
> Say 10,000 home fans, and a couple of 1,000 away fans.


There is the problem and difference between AFL and CFL. The CFL is still largely a gate driven league. No team could survive on such low numbers. 10-12 thousand at a game? No chance in hell. For a team to survive in the CFL, 25,000 should be the minimum target for game attendance.

Only a handful of cities in Canada can hope to achieve that.

The CFL is hugely popular in many cities and towns in Canada, From PRince Rupert to St John's. But no chance at having their own team.


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## Cjones2451

Does anyone know anything about what is happening with Lansdowne Park and Frank Clair Stadium?? Have all the court challenges been overcome and are they ready to start on this project?
I know that they have started tearing down the old stands so that they can start on the new ones when they are ready
Hopefully it can start this spring and we can have the CFL back in Ottawa in 2014


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## isaidso

Commissioner Mark Cohen stated that Ottawa will be back in the league for 2014 so it looks like it's happening, all be it at a snail's pace. This is Ottawa after all.


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## Neda Say

Better late than never! Now can the CFL deal with the Quebec City, Halifax and Vancouver Island markets!!!


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## Cjones2451

Neda Say said:


> Better late than never! Now can the CFL deal with the Quebec City, Halifax and Vancouver Island markets!!!


I know many people think Victoria is a good market, but I think the demographic of that market is not there.
Maybe if you market to the entire island (Naniamo, Comox, Campbell River etc)


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## mattec

isaidso said:


> And why is that? It used to be every bit the equivalent; there's no reason why it couldn't get back there. With the exception of Toronto, the CFL is still hugely popular in this country.


Take off the maple leaf glasses. The NFL is the richest, most powerful league on the planet with a TV contract worth $20.4 billion for 7 years. The CFL's contract is only worth a paltry $80 million over five years. The NFL can draw from 300+ million Americans and even pull in people from Canada, Mexico, and Europe. The CFL can only draw from 34 million Canadians and has little to no reach beyond its borders. The NFL and CFL's budgets are no where close to being the same the salary cap for a CFL team is $4.25 million, where as the NFL team's is $127 million. 

Its a numbers game and the CFL's numbers just don't match up.


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## isaidso

mattec said:


> Take off the maple leaf glasses.


I'm aware of all that. He said it's *the way it should be,* when he should have said that's *the way things are.* The insinuation is completely different.


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## isaidso

Cjones2451 said:


> I know many people think Victoria is a good market, but I think the demographic of that market is not there.
> Maybe if you market to the entire island (Naniamo, Comox, Campbell River etc)


Do you mean they don't have a large enough population base or that the population is culturally not interested in football? The second part may be true, but there's certainly a large enough population. It's also a population that's growing at a good clip.


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## Cjones2451

isaidso said:


> Do you mean they don't have a large enough population base or that the population is culturally not interested in football? The second part may be true, but there's certainly a large enough population. It's also a population that's growing at a good clip.


Its been 20 years since I lived there, but I always remembered it was "nearly weds and almost deads" that lived there, in other words UVic students and retirees. 

Does anyone know what tyoe of attendance numbers the WHL team is getting since they moved back to Victoria?


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## elly63

Bombers' home finds its Investors
Winnipeg-based financial firm etches its name on new stadium
Adam Wazny Winnipeg Free Press 12/15/2011



It was announced Wednesday Investors Group has acquired the naming rights of the new stadium under construction on the University of Manitoba Fort Garry campus. It will be called Investors Group Field.

The Winnipeg Football Club has extended a long-standing partnership with financial services giant Investors Group to include the naming rights of the new football stadium at the University of Manitoba, it was announced Wednesday. A stadium logo was also revealed, featuring the corporate IG logo, a black serif font with the name Investors Group Field and two white arches -- which will become the signature impression of the facility.

"This is a team that Winnipeggers take pride in... to be able to have some pride in the types of companies that are built, rooted and started here in Winnipeg, we feel that's a good thing," said Murray Taylor, president and CEO of Investors Group.

"We wanted to be a part of that."

Both the Bombers and Investors Group say the move was simply the right fit. Investors is a nationally recognized company based out of Winnipeg and has been a corporate partner with the Bombers for over 35 years -- two major factors in what the football operation was looking for when they put out the call for the naming rights earlier this year.

Jeff Thompson, the chief transition officer in charge is moving the Bombers into the new facility, said the club approached about 100 national and provincial companies during the process -- looking for the right fit both economically and publically -- before drafting a 12-year naming-rights commitment with Investors Group.

"We're very fortunate that we not only met all of our commercial requirements and needs, but we are also so fortunate to have this national company that is 80-plus years old, as we are, and totally aligned with our core values and principles," Thompson said.

The duration of the arrangement between the not-for-profit football club (with its new taxpayer-funded stadium) and the financial group runs until the 2024 season but the monetary details of the deal were not disclosed.

In 2001, the football club sold the naming rights to Winnipeg Stadium to Canad Inns, a Manitoba-based hotel chain, for $1.5 million over 10 years ($150,000 annually).

The deal wasn't great for the Bombers, as they had little leverage with a crumbling stadium and a product that didn't enjoy the rabid fanbase it does today.

Sources in the business community indicate the club was looking for at least $500,000 per year for the rights this time around, but Thompson wouldn't confirm that figure or expand on what Investors Group is on the hook for.

"We're very proud of having a 12-year deal that (meets) all of our financial requirements," he said.

The football stadium is the second sporting venue at the U of M campus that carries the Investors Group brand. The Investors Group Athletic Centre houses both the Bisons men's and women's basketball and volleyball teams, along with the Canadian national women's volleyball program.

*The new 33,500-seat bowl stadium (which can be expanded to seat 40,000 for major events) is under construction. Blue Bombers interim CEO Ossama AbouZeid said the building is on schedule and doesn't anticipate any delays in the immediate future.

The $190-million facility is scheduled to open for the start of the 2012 CFL season.*

Investors Group Field is just one of three CFL stadiums that have corporate names attached to them (Rogers Centre in Toronto and Mosaic Stadium at Taylor Field are the others). Percival Molson Stadium, home of the Montreal Alouettes, is named after the former McGill University athletics star, not the beer company.


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## isaidso

JYDA said:


> I remember a decade ago the CIS final 8 getting huge attendance in Halifax but that went downhill big time.


The Final 8 was awarded to Ottawa for a few years to help develop the market for college basketball in a new part of Canada. It returned to Halifax last March and will be there again this March. I flew east for the tournament and didn't notice a big drop like you suggest. Halifax seems to be the only market in the country that can guarantee crowds regardless of whether a local team makes it to the Final 8.


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## JYDA

isaidso said:


> The Final 8 was awarded to Ottawa for a few years to help develop the market for college basketball in a new part of Canada. It returned to Halifax last March and will be there again this March. I flew east for the tournament and didn't notice a big drop like you suggest. Halifax seems to be the only market in the country that can guarantee crowds regardless of whether a local team makes it to the Final 8.


They used to fill the Metro Centre. I remember St. FX playing to capacity crowds. It's nothing like that anymore.


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## carnifex2005

The Montreal Impact and Olympic Park announce a four year partnership 

_MONTREAL, January 17, 2012 – The Minister of Tourism and minister of the Olympic Park, Ms. Ménard, along with Montreal Impact president Joey Saputo and president of the Olympic Stadium, Mr. David Heurtel, announced on Tuesday a four year partnership between the two organizations, reinforcing the stature of professional sports at the Olympic Stadium.

The deal stipulates that of the 17 regular season home games that the club will play in Major League Soccer (MLS) in 2012, five of those matches will be played at Olympic Stadium, as well as the Canadian Nutrilite Championship game. For the 2013, 2014, and 2015 seasons, the Impact should play two or three games at Olympic Stadium, including the home openers.
_










Good idea. Since the MLS season starts in early March now, it will help with those early games in the season weather wise. Also will help when the Impact try to bring in big name teams in for friendlies.


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## Maza1987

^good for when they play LA and NY


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## elly63

Cjones2451 said:


> but has anyone actually seen any renderings or what it will look like or what the final capacity will be? I have heard as low as 22,500


Stadium debate takes a new turn
Matthew Van Dongen thespec.com Jan 12 2012 

Ivor Wynne stadium appears to be on the move — by about 90 degrees.

Starting in late 2012, the venerable Tiger-Cats stadium will be demolished and *rebuilt as a 22,500-seat venue capable of hosting both CFL football and international soccer* in advance of the 2015 Pan Am Games.

Rumours have swirled for months the east-west oriented stadium would be reconstructed along north-south lines.

It’s definitely an option, said Lloyd Ferguson, who cochairs the city stadium precinct subcommittee.

“It’s my understanding this has been proposed,” said Ferguson, who wouldn’t reveal how he knows about the stadium swivel. “I’d be surprised if all of the bidders didn’t change (the orientation).”

Pan Am head Ian Troop admitted the layout change has been discussed.

“The Ticats raised it with us early on,” Troop said Thursday in Toronto, where he participated in a groundbreaking for the $514-million Pan Am athletes village.

He said the three competing bid teams have looked at the idea, but added a “confirmed solution” won’t be announced until July.

The layout change could make more room for concessions and fan-friendly facilities. It would also help keep direct sun out of the eyes of players and fans — a bonus for football and Pan Am soccer players alike.

Troop said planners took into account the expert advice of global soccer gurus such as those with the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA). He couldn’t say whether stadium orientation factored into that discussion, but the federation’s stadium construction guidelines say a north-south orientation is often preferred.

But the layout switch would mean more to Hamiltonians than snazzier concessions and less squinting, said Councillor Bernie Morelli.

The new stadium will stay within its existing block, bounded by Beechwood Avenue, Melrose Avenue, Cannon Street East and Balsam Avenue.

“But if this happens, you’re talking about new parking, new entrances, new traffic patterns potentially,” said Morelli, who is impatient to begin neighbourhood planning around the revamped stadium.

“Who knows, maybe we’d have to think about temporarily closing part of one of those streets for games, or permanently. It’s a little frustrating, because without confirmation (of the layout), we can’t even begin to look at those issues.”

Infrastructure Ontario, the provincial agency overseeing construction of Pan Am legacy facilities, has so far refused to publicly discuss even the specifications for the new stadium beyond the capacity, 22,500 seats, citing the need to protect the competitive bidding process.

City staff assigned to monitor the stadium design process had to sign confidentiality agreements, and Ferguson, Morelli and other committee members have been asked to follow suit.

Ferguson said he’ll sign if it means having access to design details that will help councillors plan responsibly for the community. *The finalized bids are due in March, but anyone not in the loop will have to wait for details until July*.


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## elly63

Jim856796 said:


> What if any stadium in Canada seating less than 30,000 were ruled inadequate for the CFL's needs? Basically, in the future every CFL stadium (especially any new ones that may be under construction or proposed) will be at, around, or above this capacity, except the Molson Stadium in Montreal, which seats 25,000.


How can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line? - Here's how


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## elly63

Tenders going ahead for Lansdowne redevelopment
David Reevely The Ottawa Citizen January 27, 2012

OTTAWA - While the city waits for a court's ruling on whether its deal to redevelop Lansdowne Park is legal, its private partner is going to tender with plans to renovate Frank Clair Stadium and erect commercial buildings on the site.

The Ontario Sports and Entertainment Group has asked for bids from construction companies wanting to take on the estimated $129.3-million Frank Clair project, which includes a new underground garage and moving many of the pipes and conduits that now serve the Glebe property. *Bids close March 1*, but the bidders already include PCL Constructors, Broccolini Construction, Pomerleau and EllisDon.


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## jay stew

Any updates on Maple Leaf Gardens?


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## JYDA

jay stew said:


> Any updates on Maple Leaf Gardens?


Yes there is.


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## elly63

jay stew said:


> Any updates on Maple Leaf Gardens?


I kept expecting they'd find a singing frog


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## skyridgeline

*Commonwealth Stadium*


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## spongeg




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## elly63

New Lansdowne plan almost ready to be unveiled
David Reevely, The Ottawa Citizen February 3, 2012

OTTAWA — The people working on the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park are *preparing to show off an updated plan for the project within two weeks*, though they’re still struggling with some details.

The list of differences between the city’s design-review panel for the quarter-billion-dollar project and the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group’s planners has been whittled down from “absolutely hundreds” to about a dozen, said Capital Councillor David Chernushenko Friday afternoon, after an all-day meeting on the subject.

Chernushenko sits on the city’s design-review panel, which includes planning committee chair Peter Hume and three renowned outside architects and urban designers — George Dark, David Leinster and James Parakh. The group spent most of Friday closeted in city hall’s Colonel By room, along with the city’s project manager Graham Bird and OSEG representatives, trying to agree.

It’s their job to represent the city and the people of Ottawa as the renovation — which includes rebuilding Frank Clair Stadium for a new football team and upgrading the Civic Centre, constructing new commercial and residential buildings on the northern third of the Glebe site, and turning most of the parking lots on the site into real parkland — is planned together with the developers and sports entrepreneurs in OSEG. They’ve met at least a dozen times, in a process that’s taken much longer than it was ever supposed to.

“That has nothing to do with lawsuits and OMB and all the rest,” Chernushenko said, referring to the legal challenge that still awaits a ruling from the Ontario Court of Appeal and a long hearing before the Ontario Municipal Board, which can overturn land-use decisions. “It’s a beast of a project with so many parts and so many players that in order for the design work, the approvals, and us to properly see things in advance and critique them has taken many months longer.”

So long, in fact, that the reconstruction of Bank Street near Lansdowne, which ideally would have been done in lockstep with a lot of the Lansdowne work, is now finished but for some mopping up in the spring, making for new questions about how to fit the two together.

But perhaps the biggest remaining challenge, Chernushenko said, is trees. “How are we going to plant trees in the new boulevards along Holmwood [Avenue] in a way that’ll make sure they become healthy mature trees instead of spindly ornamental things that, far too often in urban settings, are all you can get because you’ve got so little room to work with?” he asks.

Trees need soil to grow in, plus light and water. Squeezing a sapling up through a little gap in paving stones close to the road won’t produce a big shade tree in 20 years. It can be done on the cheap now, but everyone will pay for it later, Chernushenko said.

Another point of contention is where to put ducts for the underground parking garage so it doesn’t vent into the Lansdowne farmers’ market, or at the houses planned for Holmwood. Fitting all the pipes and ducts and other infrastructure together on the historic property in the Glebe is difficult and every idea seems to have a downside, Chernushenko said.

The project’s design is now “quite different” from the last set of drawings the public saw when city council voted to continue with the redevelopment at the end of last summer, Chernushenko said. Not in the big things: the planned new buildings are still where the city and OSEG said they would be (though “they’re actually not as tall, for the most part”), the Horticulture Building is still being moved (to Chernushenko’s dissatisfaction). But they’re now “down to the actual level of design and materials.”

The trick, he said, is to make the buildings look like they fit together and with the rest of the Glebe, without looking identical. “Among the key that we had was the promise that it’s not going to be big box, it’s not going to look like a shopping mall, but how do we do that, how do we actually put that into concrete design terms? So that it has the look and feel of many small-to-medium-sized shops, restaurants, services.”

Simulating the 100 years of organic development that’s created the Glebe is an inherently difficult, maybe impossible, task, and Chernushenko said he quietly won’t be disappointed if it turns out that in 20 years the place has evolved quite a bit. He opposed the direction the Lansdowne redevelopment has taken, he said, partly because the neighbourhood needs more recreational facilities, and if that’s the direction the market eventually pushes the district, that’ll be fine with him.

Chernushenko remains dissatisfied with some of the big things that were already pretty much decided when he won his council seat in late 2010 — the plans to narrow the views of the Aberdeen Pavilion, for instance. And despite the reports that say traffic won’t be a big problem once the project is finished in 2015, his gut says it will. Huge events, when the police direct traffic and a fleet of shuttles brings people in from far and wide, will probably be OK, but an ordinary busy weekend day might not be, he said. He wishes his arguments that the site should be for pedestrians only, and that that would be good for the neighbourhood and for businesses, were having more impact.

But he is satisfied with how well the design reviewers have worked together, saying he could count on one hand the number of times they’ve disagreed on anything substantial. He credited Hume with being adamant about the notion that the renovated Frank Clair Stadium should be a highly accessible “stadium in the park,” where people can shortcut across the football field if the stadium isn’t in use. And he said *the panel has done a good job protecting big features people like and are expecting, like the wood-ribbed “veil” along the stadium’s south-side stands*.

The next hard part will be enforcing all the agreements in the face of unexpected cost increases and new problems, he said. Chernushenko wants the redevelopment to be as successful as it can be, though he remains a critic.

“We had better make sure that it is special.”


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## elly63

Latest drawings of new Ottawa stadium









Site rendering Lansdowne Park Redevelopment
Photograph by: M. Compeau, City of Ottawa









View of South stands
Photograph by: City of Ottawa









Stadium concourse
Photograph by: M. Compeau, City of Ottawa









Stadium concourse
Photograph by: City of Ottawa


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## Cjones2451

elly63 said:


> Latest drawings of new Ottawa stadium
> 
> 
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> Site rendering Lansdowne Park Redevelopment
> Photograph by: M. Compeau, City of Ottawa
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> 
> View of South stands
> Photograph by: City of Ottawa
> 
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> Stadium concourse
> Photograph by: M. Compeau, City of Ottawa
> 
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> Stadium concourse
> Photograph by: City of Ottawa


I think this is one of the most unique stadium designs and settings. I wish all the BS with the so called "Freinds of Landsdowne" would just go away and they can start building the damn thing. Does anyone know when the ruling on the appeal will be revealed?


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## Cjones2451

*CFL Stadiums*

It will be so cool when this is done for 2014 along with the New Hamilton Stadium, as well as Winnipeg, BC Place and Molson already done, Edmonton getting new seats for Commonwealth and hopefully a new replacement for Taylor Field underway. All they need now is for Halifax/Moncton/Quebec City to figure out how to get a 25K stadium done and the CFL will be a good looking 10 team league with great buildings for deades to come

Calgary and Toronto.....we need something from you too


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## koolio

Nothing's gonna happen in Toronto. For Calgary, I hope they put all that oil money to good use and build a state of the art facility to replace the disgusting looking McMahon Stadium.


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## elly63

More drawings of new Frank Clair Stadium plans
(All photos courtesy http://ottawa.ca)









The stadium will have a strong relationship to the park and to the Aberdeen Pavilion.









End zone seating on grass berms will bring the total seating capacity to 24,000









There will be something to appeal to all ages, tastes and passions.









The new stadium design will provide 22,500 permanent seats for CFL games and professional soccer matches and will be able to host a variety of other entertainment and sporting events.









The upper concourse of the new south stands will have concessions and washrooms for fans, offering spectacular views to the Canal.









The veil delaminates and creates openings for people to walk through.









The stadium will be a showpiece for the park and the city, and a multi-purpose and engaging place when filled with thousands of patrons.









The main field level concourse on the south side will provide open views to the field.









A view of the south stands from inside the stadium









A view of the south stands from the new Bank Street entry plaza offers an overview of the field of play.









A nightime view of a football game









The stadium rises out of the top of the landscaped berm, curving naturally as it rises.


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## elly63

koolio said:


> For Calgary, I hope they put all that oil money to good use and build a state of the art facility to replace the disgusting looking McMahon Stadium.


There's only two ways to get federal money (in the present environment) to build a stadium. One is on a university campus ie Winnipeg and two as a host for a major international games. If Calgary was smart, here is the opportunity for a new stadium for the Stamps and Dinos. When it comes to getting something like this built in Canada, 10 years isn't necessarily a long way away.

Canada making a pitch for 2022 Commonwealth Games
Randy Boswell, Postmedia News February 6, 2012

Five years after Halifax's embarrassing, 11th-hour pullout from the race to host the 2014 Commonwealth Games, the international sporting event's top Canadian official has begun laying the groundwork for a new bid to stage the Games in this country in 2022.

Commonwealth Games Canada chief executive Brian MacPherson told Postmedia News on Monday that he has received expressions of interest already from "more than one" city hoping to welcome the Games to Canada for the fifth time since 1930.

"We're intending to bid," MacPherson said, noting that he has begun taking stock of opinion "internationally and domestically" — including the views of delegates from the world's 54 Commonwealth nations and the heads of international sports federations — on Canada's chances of winning the right to hold the 2022 Games, the host of which will be chosen by November 2015.

MacPherson first disclosed Canada's intentions to host the Games in an interview over the weekend with Inside The Games, the British-based media outlet that monitors developments among international sports organizations.

Seventy-one teams from the 54 Commonwealth nations typically compete in the Commonwealth Games, since Scotland, England and Wales, as well as various British overseas territories and other sub-national jurisdictions, send athletes under their own flags.

"We've had cities come to us and express interest, unsolicited, and it's more than one," said MacPherson, declining to name the potential Canadian hosts that have approached the Ottawa-based sports body.

"It sounds like so far away, but it's not from a process point of view," MacPherson said of the 10-year lead time for planning to host the Games. A key hurdle, he said, is the February 2014 deadline for candidate cities to file a formal notice with the international Commonwealth Games Federation.

And before that deadline arrives, he added, Commonwealth Games Canada would have to choose a single Canadian city from among several potential contenders to carry the Maple Leaf banner into the international selection process.

"It takes a year to stage a domestic bid process to pick that one city you want to move forward with to the international level," said MacPherson. "So hence, we're now doing our due diligence . . . because if we are going to bid, basically by this summer or fall would be the latest" to begin identifying the best Canadian city to nominate.

In March 2007, after Halifax had won the right to be Canada's candidate to host the 2014 Commonwealth Games, the city withdrew late in the international part of the process due to unforeseen budget concerns.

Canada's loss was Scotland's gain, as Glasgow was named the host city for the 2014 event.

The 2018 Commonwealth Games were recently awarded to Gold Coast, Australia.

MacPherson said Commonwealth Games Canada learned from the scuttled Halifax bid that the process of selecting a Canadian candidate must begin a full decade before the winning city actually hosts the competition.

He describes South Africa as "the wild card" when it comes to potential competitors for hosting the 2022 Games.

"From a region point of view, Africa holds the most votes and it's also a region that has never hosted a Commonwealth Games," said MacPherson, noting that South African officials have signalled the country's interest in holding the 2022 event but "they have not definitively said yes or no."

The 2010 Games in Delhi, India, sparked controversy over the initial readiness of the venue, but the staging of the event was, overall, deemed a success.

Canada hosted the inaugural "Empire" Games in 1930 in Hamilton, then held subsequent Commonwealth Games in Vancouver in 1954, in Edmonton in 1978 and Victoria in 1994.

But MacPherson said more than a quarter-century will have passed between the last time Canada hosted the Games in 1994 and the 2022 competition.

"For us in the Americas region, it's been a long time since there's been a Games in this region," he said, adding that the Conservative government also has set a national policy of trying to host two major international sporting events every decade.

With Vancouver having hosted the 2010 Winter Olympics and Toronto poised to stage the 2015 Pan-Am Games, MacPherson said holding the Commonwealth Games in Canada in 2022 would be "a natural fit from a timing and policy point of view."


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## Lord David

koolio said:


> Nothing's gonna happen in Toronto. For Calgary, I hope they put all that oil money to good use and build a state of the art facility to replace the disgusting looking McMahon Stadium.


It's not that disgusting looking. 

The only way I can see major upgrades or even a new stadium is for a major event like another Winter Olympics.

I'd preferably do a major upgrade, rather than a completely new stadium.

Replace all bleacher seating with individual seats. Curve the stands (occupying what is now the video screen) to form a permanent U-shape, with the provision to form a complete bowl for major events like the Grey Cup or Olympics. If the stadium is to be a permanent bowl (ideally symmetrical), then you could propose a 4 screen video setup suspended from the "ceiling" or in this case what is now housing the speaker setup. Perhaps add roofing to the main sides of the stadium (which would probably need a redo of the stadium lighting setup), and do a complete makeover of the outer facade.

It's a nice charming and clearly North American style stadium (something which is slowly becoming less and less) and with upgrades could see a permanent capacity of over 40,000 or even 50,000.


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## isaidso

Lord David said:


> If such a large 80,000 seater had a roof (retractable of course), then it would be a rival for the Skydome in events like concerts.


I suppose so, but does Toronto need another concert venue? I'd say no. It's the Argonauts who are desperately in need. The football team hasn't had a proper stadium since 1959 when they played at Varsity Stadium. Skydome is too big and doesn't work for football; its running them into the ground. An 80,000 seater isn't going to solve the problem. Who wants to go to a stadium with 40,000-50,000 empty seats?

*Toronto Argonauts @ Varsity Stadium, 1938*









53 years waiting for a football stadium? I think they've been more than patient.


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## Welkin

isaidso said:


> 53 years waiting for a football stadium? I think they've been more than patient.


So what do you think is Toronto's problem? Winnipeg and Ottawa are building new stadiums on their own, Hamilton is getting one through the Pan Am games and even Halifax is thinking about a new stadium. Why does there seem to be no interest in a CFL 30-35,000 seat stadium in Toronto? Is it just go big (Rogers Center, potential someday down the road NFL/Olympic Stadium) or go home? I really thought that something would have happened with York University by now.


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## elly63

Welkin said:


> So what do you think is Toronto's problem? Winnipeg and Ottawa are building new stadiums on their own, Hamilton is getting one through the Pan Am games and even Halifax is thinking about a new stadium. Why does there seem to be no interest in a CFL 30-35,000 seat stadium in Toronto? Is it just go big (Rogers Center, potential someday down the road NFL/Olympic Stadium) or go home? I really thought that something would have happened with York University by now.


It's unfortunate, but I think it is too late to get in on the York University PanAm track stadium. I also assume that the York University officials are reluctant to get involved with the Argos again after the last stadium fiasco attempt. The construction of the site is set to commence October 2012 and the area will be turned over to the project lead, Infrastructure Ontario. The stadium will be complete by 2014, well before the start of the Pan Am games.

But the well connected David Braley is on the scene now and if it was possible to get something done he would be the man to do it. Publicly the Argos are not making any pronouncements but it seems they are discussing contingency plans behind the scenes (as well they should)

Personally, I don't think the Argos are as dead as many people seem to believe. The Argos drew an avg of 30,000 only a few years ago. Toronto is a an NHL town and the other sports compete for the table scraps. Montreal (CFL) was resurrected at a time, when the team and league were in far, far worse shape than Toronto is now. If it can be done there it can be done in TO, the key is to limit ticket availability like they did in Mtl.

It's only in Toronto where people think they can get an Olympics and or NFL team without proving themselves first. Can anyone say the Pan Ams will be a rousing success with what we know so far? Has the Buffalo Bills experiment been a success? I would say the answer to either question is likely, no.

Here's my solution. If it's too late to get in on the York stadium which would mean a completely new stadium because the York track stadium will only hold 12,500 people with 5,000 permanent and 7500 temporary seats, then what about Lamport.

I don't know the area so those from T.O can correct me. I understand the location is good and the stadium seats about 9600. If the large funds cannot be generated to build a new stadium, what about combining the European and Winnipeg models where the team gets a loan and instead of rebuilding a new stadium build one new stand (ie Ottawa) and in a few years when funds are available work on the other side. There are many examples of this having being done in England for soccer stadiums.

It's said that Braley is committed to making it work at the RC but the time to act is now. TSN has been commissioned to do several historical CFL docs for the Grey Cup 100th anniversary and there's no doubt that the great history of the Argos is going to get some goodwill. Combine that with a highly regarded new young coach and veteran star quarterback and this is the time to be ready with a plan to move forward.


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## elly63

Lord David said:


> If such a large 80,000 seater had a roof (retractable of course), then it would be a rival for the Skydome in events like concerts.


There just isn't a need for anything that large. Some well heeled investors are looking at building a new arena for just that purpose and although they deny it, a second NHL team for the GTA.

Dreams of the NFL and the Olympics just aren't likely to happen. The NFL has to service American markets first and all the talk about international expansion is about London not Toronto.


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## isaidso

^^ True, there's too much down side and little upside for the NFL moving into Canada. The established pro football league in Canada would suffer and I'd argue that the NFL would rather have a healthy CFL; it compliments the NFL rather than acting as a rival. Putting a team in Toronto would add little to NFL revenues as the NFL already rakes in lots of money from Canada with no team here. The NFL has a television deal and sells lots of merchandise in Canada. The NFL might go to Mexico or the UK, but it's not coming to Canada.



Welkin said:


> So what do you think is Toronto's problem? Winnipeg and Ottawa are building new stadiums on their own, Hamilton is getting one through the Pan Am games and even Halifax is thinking about a new stadium. Why does there seem to be no interest in a CFL 30-35,000 seat stadium in Toronto? Is it just go big (Rogers Center, potential someday down the road NFL/Olympic Stadium) or go home? I really thought that something would have happened with York University by now.


There's been little impetus or political will in Toronto to fund a football stadium with so much spent to build Skydome. The Argonauts have had to suck it up while interest declines year after year. There is hope on the horizon though. The Blue Jays announced last week that they intend to install real grass with a drainage system underneath. If this comes to pass, the Argonauts will need a new home as the lower bowl will be permanently fixed in its baseball configuration.

As much as I want a downtown football stadium, York may be the best option. It's easier to marshall tax payer dollars when the benefits are shared with a public institution. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are building their new stadium at the University of Manitoba for similar reasons. My primary concern is that a move to the outskirts would all but eliminate the teams visibility in the city.

The University of Toronto site has been developed into a 5,000 seat facility with no potential for expansion. Ryerson University and George Brown College don't have football programs and little need for a stadium. GB might be a possibility down the road though as they're expanding their campus on the waterfront east of downtown. That area would be great for a football stadium.


----------



## isaidso

elly63 said:


> It's unfortunate, but I think it is too late to get in on the York University PanAm track stadium. I also assume that the York University officials are reluctant to get involved with the Argos again after the last stadium fiasco attempt. The construction of the site is set to commence October 2012 and the area will be turned over to the project lead, Infrastructure Ontario. The stadium will be complete by 2014, well before the start of the Pan Am games.
> 
> But the well connected David Braley is on the scene now and if it was possible to get something done he would be the man to do it. Publicly the Argos are not making any pronouncements but it seems they are discussing contingency plans behind the scenes (as well they should)
> 
> Personally, I don't think the Argos are as dead as many people seem to believe. The Argos drew an avg of 30,000 only a few years ago. Toronto is a an NHL town and the other sports compete for the table scraps. Montreal (CFL) was resurrected at a time, when the team and league were in far, far worse shape than Toronto is now. If it can be done there it can be done in TO, the key is to limit ticket availability like they did in Mtl.
> 
> It's only in Toronto where people think they can get an Olympics and or NFL team without proving themselves first. Can anyone say the Pan Ams will be a rousing success with what we know so far? Has the Buffalo Bills experiment been a success? I would say the answer to either question is likely, no.
> 
> Here's my solution. If it's too late to get in on the York stadium which would mean a completely new stadium because the York track stadium will only hold 12,500 people with 5,000 permanent and 7500 temporary seats, then what about Lamport.
> 
> I don't know the area so those from T.O can correct me. I understand the location is good and the stadium seats about 9600. If the large funds cannot be generated to build a new stadium, what about combining the European and Winnipeg models where the team gets a loan and instead of rebuilding a new stadium build one new stand (ie Ottawa) and in a few years when funds are available work on the other side. There are many examples of this having being done in England for soccer stadiums.
> 
> It's said that Braley is committed to making it work at the RC but the time to act is now. TSN has been commissioned to do several historical CFL docs for the Grey Cup 100th anniversary and there's no doubt that the great history of the Argos is going to get some goodwill. Combine that with a highly regarded new young coach and veteran star quarterback and this is the time to be ready with a plan to move forward.


Good post. I lived in the west end for a few years, so will comment on the Lamport Stadium idea. Toronto FC, the soccer team, plays just a few blocks south of here so there is precedence for sporting success in this area. Liberty Village is right next door and offers tons of amenities well suited to the sports fan: bars, LCBO, grocery store, fast food, restaurants, etc. The whole area livens up on game day despite BMO Field being on the other side of the train tracks.

The Lamport Stadium site is even better as its literally in Liberty Village with quickly gentrifying Parkdale and hip West Queen West 5 minutes away. There's a King Street West streetcar that runs frequently, but like BMO Field this is an area with no subway service. 

The site allows for significant expansion of the current stadium. You could squeeze quite a large stadium on the site if you wanted. The big downfall is the lack of parking. BMO Field offers lots while this site offers none. The vacant land directly to the north is being developed into condominiums so the only solution is underground parking. The possibility of tailgating isn't good at this location.


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## Sonrise

isaidso said:


> Good post. I lived in the west end for a few years, so will comment on the Lamport Stadium idea. Toronto FC, the soccer team, plays just a few blocks south of here so there is precedence for sporting success in this area. Liberty Village is right next door and offers tons of amenities well suited to the sports fan: bars, LCBO, grocery store, fast food, restaurants, etc. The whole area livens up on game day despite BMO Field being on the other side of the train tracks.
> 
> The Lamport Stadium site is even better as its literally in Liberty Village with quickly gentrifying Parkdale and hip West Queen West 5 minutes away. There's a King Street West streetcar that runs frequently, but like BMO Field this is an area with no subway service.
> 
> The site allows for significant expansion of the current stadium. You could squeeze quite a large stadium on the site if you wanted. The big downfall is the lack of parking. BMO Field offers lots while this site offers none. The vacant land directly to the north is being developed into condominiums so the only solution is underground parking. The possibility of tailgating isn't good at this location.


I read on another forum that the CNE grounds are only a 5 minute walk from Lamport and there is tons of parking there. Is that the case?


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## carnifex2005

isaidso said:


> Good post. I lived in the west end for a few years, so will comment on the Lamport Stadium idea. Toronto FC, the soccer team, plays just a few blocks south of here so there is precedence for sporting success in this area. Liberty Village is right next door and offers tons of amenities well suited to the sports fan: bars, LCBO, grocery store, fast food, restaurants, etc. The whole area livens up on game day despite BMO Field being on the other side of the train tracks.
> 
> The Lamport Stadium site is even better as its literally in Liberty Village with quickly gentrifying Parkdale and hip West Queen West 5 minutes away. There's a King Street West streetcar that runs frequently, but like BMO Field this is an area with no subway service.
> 
> The site allows for significant expansion of the current stadium. You could squeeze quite a large stadium on the site if you wanted. The big downfall is the lack of parking. BMO Field offers lots while this site offers none. The vacant land directly to the north is being developed into condominiums so the only solution is underground parking. The possibility of tailgating isn't good at this location.


I've also heard that Downsview would be a good location for them despite not being downtown (I think that TFC bought a good amount of the land though and are creating their academy out there). Would that work for the Argos?


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## isaidso

^^ Downsview is quite far from downtown, but there's tons of land out there (a decommissioned airport), and great highway access (it sits next to the 401. It would be great for tailgating and suburban fans, but there's nothing in the way of bars, restaurants, or transit. It's a barren, desolate, and bleak part of the city. 

I'd much rather try to emulate the success of the Alouettes and have the Argonauts play in a fan friendly downtown stadium. Tailgating is not a big tradition in Ontario, but I think it's key to the long term success of franchises here. The best option is a football specific downtown stadium, maximum 40,000 seats, in an established area with bars, where the possibility of tailgating exists.



Sonrise said:


> I read on another forum that the CNE grounds are only a 5 minute walk from Lamport and there is tons of parking there. Is that the case?


It's more like a 10 minute trek, but there's a huge amount of parking next to BMO Field. I suppose people could tailgate there, then walk to Lamport.


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## flashman

There is no point in planning or spending any more money for CFL stadium projects in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal. 

The evolving demographics of each city have created fairly diverse communities with changing appetites for sport and they can no longer be thought of as responsive or supportive of the CFL the way they were 30 or more years ago. 

The presence of Major League Soccer will also create a sufficient erosion on sponsorships and suite sales - hence, the financial well-being of local rival CFL clubs - that it will create a perpetual cycle of losing money. Given that the CFL owners are notoriously short pocketed, it won't be long before they see the writing on the wall and close up shop. Ottawa doesn't yet have a MLS franchise, but many feel it will do well once the franchise is granted and MLS has indicated that they'd add Ottawa in once a suitable stadium is available.

Toronto Argonauts are facing eviction from Toronto's domed stadium and have no realistic option to play elsewhere unless they want to spend their own money to build or upgrade an existing facility. The Lamport Stadium option might be their best bet, but what a blow to their ego having to shlep off to some crude, crumbly, concrete playpen. It will need serious upgrading efforts, but given the football sympathetic nature of the local mayor, it may yet happen via the public purse.


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## isaidso

Football may never become central to the culture in Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal like it is elsewhere, but that's no reason to throw in the towel. It's a wonderful sport and will always find an audience. Should we stop investing in hockey arenas if lots of immigrants prefer soccer? 

Ottawa is building a stadium and will be back in the CFL by 2014 while 400,000 people showed up to the Grey Cup victory parade in Montreal 2 years ago. The Toronto Argonauts are the oldest pro football team on the continent and will be hosting the 100th Grey Cup this year. 

It's a bit premature to be writing the obituaries.


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## Lord David

flashman said:


> There is no point in planning or spending any more money for CFL stadium projects in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal.
> 
> The evolving demographics of each city have created fairly diverse communities with changing appetites for sport and they can no longer be thought of as responsive or supportive of the CFL the way they were 30 or more years ago.
> 
> The presence of Major League Soccer will also create a sufficient erosion on sponsorships and suite sales - hence, the financial well-being of local rival CFL clubs - that it will create a perpetual cycle of losing money. Given that the CFL owners are notoriously short pocketed, it won't be long before they see the writing on the wall and close up shop. Ottawa doesn't yet have a MLS franchise, but many feel it will do well once the franchise is granted and MLS has indicated that they'd add Ottawa in once a suitable stadium is available.
> 
> Toronto Argonauts are facing eviction from Toronto's domed stadium and have no realistic option to play elsewhere unless they want to spend their own money to build or upgrade an existing facility. The Lamport Stadium option might be their best bet, but what a blow to their ego having to shlep off to some crude, crumbly, concrete playpen. It will need serious upgrading efforts, but given the football sympathetic nature of the local mayor, it may yet happen via the public purse.


If anything, Canada should be investing heaps more in CFL. You should be proud of your version of football, promote the sport and give your teams and future teams some decent stadiums!


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## Nate

flashman said:


> There is no point in planning or spending any more money for CFL stadium projects in Toronto, Ottawa or Montreal.
> 
> The evolving demographics of each city have created fairly diverse communities with changing appetites for sport and they can no longer be thought of as responsive or supportive of the CFL the way they were 30 or more years ago.
> 
> The presence of Major League Soccer will also create a sufficient erosion on sponsorships and suite sales - hence, the financial well-being of local rival CFL clubs - that it will create a perpetual cycle of losing money. Given that the CFL owners are notoriously short pocketed, it won't be long before they see the writing on the wall and close up shop. Ottawa doesn't yet have a MLS franchise, but many feel it will do well once the franchise is granted and MLS has indicated that they'd add Ottawa in once a suitable stadium is available.
> 
> Toronto Argonauts are facing eviction from Toronto's domed stadium and have no realistic option to play elsewhere unless they want to spend their own money to build or upgrade an existing facility. The Lamport Stadium option might be their best bet, but what a blow to their ego having to shlep off to some crude, crumbly, concrete playpen. It will need serious upgrading efforts, but given the football sympathetic nature of the local mayor, it may yet happen via the public purse.


People have said the writing is on the wall for a good 2 decades, yet it's still around... and actually is at probably the highest point since the "golden age" of the CFL in the 60s and 70s. Furthermore, I would argue that Vancouver is more diverse than either Ottawa and Montreal, Toronto being probably fairly comparable, yet, the BC Lions are supported quite well. It should also be mentioned that the low point of the Lions history (support-wise) is much lower than where the Argos are now, so really, it isn't impossible to come back in a major market (the Alouettes have also shown this). 

And if we are so worried about immigration and diversity pulling Canada away from our sports, why isn't hockey a concern? I'm thinking that it's because it isn't cool to bash the NHL (no matter how poor some teams' records have been over the last 5 decades), while it still seems to be in vogue to put down the CFL in some circles. It's sad really that our only professional sports league we have as a country is so poorly treated.

And in any case there is also speculation as to how long the MLS will continue to last in its current model. Outside of a couple large markets, it's not very well supported and television viewership hasn't exactly been stellar, so the next TV deal could be for quite a bit less than the current, which would be troublesome.


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## Welkin

Nate said:


> And in any case there is also speculation as to how long the MLS will continue to last in its current model. Outside of a couple large markets, it's not very well supported and television viewership hasn't exactly been stellar, so the next TV deal could be for quite a bit less than the current, which would be troublesome.


You have to remember that both the CFL and MLS operate at a different economic structure than the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB. They will continue to survive and thrive as long as they continue to keep their spending under control. Keep in mind that Peyton Manning at $18 million per year makes more money than the entire payroll of almost six CFL teams. Neither league depends upon TV revenue for their bread and butter so television viewership is not that important. Both leagues make the base of their income at the gate and that is improving for both leagues. MLS does not need to draw 30,000 a game in order to be successful. As long as the MLS stops over paying for European washouts, it and the CFL will both do just fine in the upcoming decades.


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## Welkin

flashman said:


> The presence of Major League Soccer will also create a sufficient erosion on sponsorships and suite sales - hence, the financial well-being of local rival CFL clubs - that it will create a perpetual cycle of losing money. Given that the CFL owners are notoriously short pocketed, it won't be long before they see the writing on the wall and close up shop. Ottawa doesn't yet have a MLS franchise, but many feel it will do well once the franchise is granted and MLS has indicated that they'd add Ottawa in once a suitable stadium is available.


I don't see where MLS has had any direct effect on CFL teams in Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal. Outside of Toronto both Montreal and B.C. are doing quite well and Toronto's problems have much more to do with previously under-funded ownership than anything to do with MLS. Had the Argos gone through with their stadium plans with York University in 2004, we would not even be having this conversation. As for Ottawa getting an MLS franchise, that ship has passed. The next franchise for MLS will be New York and they are talking franchise fees around $100 million. Ownership groups in Ottawa could not even come up with the $40 million fee last time, much less pay close to $100 million the next time around. MLS is done expanding in Canada. The CFL will thrive and survive just fine regardless of what MLS does.


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## isaidso

All courtesy of the Winnipeg Blue Bomber football club.


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## sublime1

Cjones2451 said:


> I found this website for the new Hamilton "Ivor Wynne" Stadium (although I am sure it will have some corporate name after it is done), but has anyone actually seen any renderings or what it will look like or what the final capacity will be? I have heard as low as 22,500
> 
> If that was the capacity they built the Ti-Cats wouldn't be able to use it. CFL requires all franchises to play in a stadium of 25,000 minimum capacity. The only exception is the Touchdown Atlantic game in Moncton where the stadium has 20,000. But yeah, the league wouldn't allow them to play in a stadium with only 22,500 seats.


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## sublime1

Welkin said:


> You have to remember that both the CFL and MLS operate at a different economic structure than the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB. They will continue to survive and thrive as long as they continue to keep their spending under control. Keep in mind that Peyton Manning at $18 million per year makes more money than the entire payroll of almost six CFL teams. Neither league depends upon TV revenue for their bread and butter so television viewership is not that important. Both leagues make the base of their income at the gate and that is improving for both leagues. MLS does not need to draw 30,000 a game in order to be successful. As long as the MLS stops over paying for European washouts, it and the CFL will both do just fine in the upcoming decades.


The next TV contract with TSN should be a good chunk of change. Ratings for some CFL games rival NHL games now. Even the nationally broadcast ones on CBC. Of course there are way more NHL games so overall the viewership is higher, but still the CFL undersold themselves. TSN rakes in the profits on CFL games considering they have total broadcast rights and paid almost nothing for it.


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## elly63

Some good responses above to the ridiculously outdated and ill informed flashman post. The CFL is doing just fine thank you very much with resurrecting the Toronto market the only major issue. And aside from the stadium issue, which Jays honcho Paul Beeston is saying won't be happening anytime soon, the Argos are doing all the right things.

The CFL TV contract is expected to double. Must be all those immigrants not watching.

isaidso - I guess those new Winnipeg stadium photos are to show flashman the "face of death" for the CFL. 

To be absolutely current, and to counter flashman's immigrant claims, the latest census has new immigrants trending westward. No longer are new Canadians flocking to their "auld country urban ghettos" (for lack of a better term) in Toronto and Montreal. They are going west, where the opportunity is.

And by the way, football is booming in Quebec where it was once almost dead. There is hope for Toronto.


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## elly63

sublime1 said:


> has anyone actually seen any renderings or what it will look like or what the final capacity will be? I have heard as low as 22,500


It will be 22,500 originally but the TiCats could expand later if they wish. There are several posts on the TiCat stadium in this thread with a very early render (likely no longer accurate). Bids are to be completed by March and no information will be revealed until July.



sublime1 said:


> If that was the capacity they built the Ti-Cats wouldn't be able to use it. CFL requires all franchises to play in a stadium of 25,000 minimum capacity. But yeah, the league wouldn't allow them to play in a stadium with only 22,500 seats.


There is no such rule, merely a guideline. Montreal played several years at 20,000. 

Here, yet again is the TiCat situation and why 22,500 can and will work.


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## isaidso

Might as well post that very early render for the Hamilton stadium:


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## JYDA

sublime1 said:


> The next TV contract with TSN should be a good chunk of change. Ratings for some CFL games rival NHL games now. Even the nationally broadcast ones on CBC. Of course there are way more NHL games so overall the viewership is higher, but still the CFL undersold themselves. TSN rakes in the profits on CFL games considering they have total broadcast rights and paid almost nothing for it.


To be fair, the ratings were weak back when TSN signed the current deal. The ratings boost has had a lot to do with TSN's commitment to heavily promote and cover the league. The benefits to the CFL of the TSN deal were much more than just the rights fee.


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## Sonrise

isaidso said:


> Might as well post that very early render for the Hamilton stadium:


I'm sorry, but that's a joke. That rendering looks worse than most high school football fields in Texas and Florida. I don't understand the small mindedness of the CFL higher ups; perception is everything and if they build this, then the perception will be that the CFL is minor league at best, bush league at worst.


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## koolio

You have the ownership of the Ti-Cats to thank for that. The city of Hamilton was being gifted a brand new stadium for the Pan Am games but their opposition to all the locations being suggested by the government organization killed that plan, so now the plan is basically to renovate the current stadium.


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## carnifex2005

koolio said:


> You have the ownership of the Ti-Cats to thank for that. The city of Hamilton was being gifted a brand new stadium for the Pan Am games but their opposition to all the locations being suggested by the government organization killed that plan, so now the plan is basically to renovate the current stadium.


I would say both are to blame. The city was hell bent on one location that didn't work for the Ti-Cats but the locations put forward by the Ti-Cats were shot down (for no good reason IMHO) because the old council were far too stubborn. Basically, the old Ivor Wynne location was a bad compromise for both sides.


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## elly63

koolio said:


> You have the ownership of the Ti-Cats to thank for that. The city of Hamilton was being gifted a brand new stadium for the Pan Am games but their opposition to all the locations being suggested by the government organization killed that plan, so now the plan is basically to renovate the current stadium.


First, they only have so much money ($150 million), the location wouldn't affect how the stadium proper would look. Second, that render is useless, that was when they still thought they could renovate one of the stands and the project then downsized. 

There are three bidders for the project, we have no idea how it will look. 

And it's not a renovation, it's a completely new stadium. Everything will be torn down (flattened), realigned 90 degrees and rebuilt. 

If you want a bad reference, think of a slightly larger stadium than BMO and with over twice the budget. Another example is Winnipeg which is building a fantastic looking stadium with 10,000 more seats at $190 million ($40 million more). 

I think the new Ivor Wynne will look great, a small jewel. Bob Young would like something with a retro look (a la Camden/Wrigley/Fenway) We'll have to wait to see if the bidders can deliver. 

I wish people would read that article I keep posting about why smaller is better. Bush league is when you have 40,000 seats and 20,000 are empty.

As for the poster who says they have better facilities in Florida and Texas, I don't know about you but I'd rather have my school district putting those millions into education not high school football programs.


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## Welkin

Sonrise said:


> I'm sorry, but that's a joke. That rendering looks worse than most high school football fields in Texas and Florida. I don't understand the small mindedness of the CFL higher ups; perception is everything and if they build this, then the perception will be that the CFL is minor league at best, bush league at worst.


The CFL only looks "bush league" when you compare it to the NFL. But then again, every league in the world looks bush league when compared to the NFL, so that is not a real slap at the CFL. Not every league can have billion dollar stadiums built by local taxpayers for the benefit of billionaire owners and multi-millionaire players. If you ask me, the CFL is a much more reasonable and fan friendly league than the NFL. CFL players make a decent living, but not so much that they can no longer relate to their fans. CFL players don't have personal chefs and entourages, but again neither do their fans. I can afford to take my family to a CFL game without having to get a second mortgage on my house. I can sit in seats that offer good views (not in the nosebleeds of a 80,000 seat stadium) and watch some pretty decent football. After the game I can take my kids down for an autograph and meet the players (try that in the NFL). The NFL has become the corporate football league and has gotten so expensive for fans to go to games that most now stay home and watch it on TV. CFL teams still understand that they are part of a community, not part of a multi-billion dollar entertainment industry. If that makes them bush league then that is just fine. You and your "superior" league can just stay south of the border.


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## elly63

^ Couldn't have said it better.

I think I mentioned in a previous post (maybe it wasn't here) a piece of trivia that surprises people. Two years ago the CFL had the sixth highest average attendance of *any* professional league in the world (it is now seventh at 27,785). 

Compare that to Serie A (24,031), MLS (17,872), and Nippon Professional Baseball (25,626)

Bush league indeed!​


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## GunnerJacket

Sonrise said:


> I don't understand the small mindedness of the CFL higher ups; perception is everything and if they build this, then the perception will be that the CFL is minor league at best, bush league at worst.


Not to pile on but I'll have to add to the responses from welkin and elly here and illustrate that if anything the CFL has proven to be pretty shrewd business managers in light of their circumstances. Much like MLS they're making the most of their limited resources and not trying to grasp beyond their reach. May mean they're not first up the mountain, but they're still on the face and climbing.


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## elly63

GunnerJacket said:


> that if anything the CFL has proven to be pretty shrewd business managers in light of their circumstances. Much like MLS they're making the most of their limited resources and not trying to grasp beyond their reach.


Eskimos budget looking up
TERRY JONES, QMI Agency

EDMONTON - It was almost embarrassing to hear the new Edmonton Eskimos’ president and CEO Len Rhodes make his statements at the annual general meeting of the team Tuesday.

But if you listened hard …

If you pushed for actual content …

Well, in there somewhere was reason to believe maybe the Eskimos might have come to an end of being the cheap, won’t-spend-a-dime-to-make-a-dollar mom-and-pop business they’d become since the Norm Kimball era.

But in his first address to those assembled at he AGM, Rhodes sounded like a fast-talking all-hat, no-cattle flim-flam man.

“Our vision is to deliver an overall sports and entertainment experience worthy of champions. Our mission is to challenge and lead through performance, innovation and creativity. We will create an environment that fosters strong employee engagement through a set of corporate values and include integrity, optimism, accessibility, authenticity, passion and professionalism … yadda, yadda, yadda.”

If you hadn’t dialed out by that point, you would have heard him make the statement.

“We will have the best game-day experience in Canada, North America and the world.”

Say what? This from a guy who has yet to attend an Eskimo game in Commonwealth Stadium in person?

In the entire history of the CFL, I’m not sure if anyone has ever come close to over-promising to that extent.

It wasn’t until cross-examination one was able to discover there was some actual content behind all that bull spit.

When we last left the Eskimos they had one sales employee. Greg Treble, after cross examination, we discover, suddenly has a sales and sponsorship staff with three department heads, three people in group sales, another in season tickets and another in inside sales.

That’s going from one to nine people.

“I believe you have to make an investment to get a return, not just wait for renewals to come in,” he said.

Bingo! Now you’re talkin’.

Rhodes also revealed in a private interview that he’d convinced the board to free up a quarter million dollars to spend on event experience and environment.

“Football isn’t like hockey. You can create 10 events. That’s hard to do with 41. In football you can turn each game into a happening. With $25,000 a game we can provide a lot of extra entertainment,” said Rhodes, who promises half-time shows significantly beyond the sad and sorry productions of the past.

One other thing: he talked about giving the stadium back to the fans. Interview him after the fancy talk and you find out there are actual specifics.

The wire mesh fence between the fans and the field that made Edmonton look like a third world soccer outfit, will be coming down. The Jackie Parker room and Quarterback Club will no longer be exclusive but will be open to all fans, with buffets under $20. The Green & Gold club will return. The ban on peanuts may even be lifted.

Why he didn’t come out and specify all that at the AGM, I don’t know. But now you know.

You should also know the Eskimos have returned to having a Canadian scout like they had when Frank Morris judged talent in the five-in-a-row era and *half the new stadium seats will be installed during the season and the other half before the start of the following season*.

The best news is that Rhodes is looking at 30,000 fans as a stadium being half empty instead of half full.

The problem with the Eskimos as a business is that it has long been successful in terms of the rest of the league, without really trying.

And Tuesday’s AGM was certainly an example of that.

The financial statement of the community-owned club showed revenue of $17,457,433, up about $1.8 million on the previous year. Expenses were $16,929,627 which, after other items, left the team with a net profit of $473,471 for the season.

Board chairman Allan Sawin said the profit basically came from having the first home playoff game since 2004.

Bottom line? The Eskimos have $9,071,679 in their Heritage Trust Fund.

It’s about time they stopped being cheap and returned to Norm Kimball’s idea of leading the league in every single little area.


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## Toronto3

Lol well in Mississauga... If your not one of the 200 people sitting on the stands than your standing while watching that high school football game...


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## isaidso

I thought high school football was only a big deal in the Maritimes? :weird:


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## Toronto3

Lol i've never heard that but really the spirit is born from the rivalry between mine and another close school... So i'm not too sure about other schools in Mississauga


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## Commandant

From BallparkDigest:



> *It's official: Eastern League to Ottawa in 2013*
> 
> The reports were true: Conditional upon various baseball approvals, we should see the move of a Class AA Eastern League team to Ottawa Stadium for the 2013 season.
> 
> Boston-based Beacon Sports has been negotiating a 10-year lease for Ottawa Stadium, the former home of the Ottawa Lynx (Class AAA; International League). The ballpark would be renovated, with capacity going down to $8 million or so; the city will pay $5.7 million for improvements, while Beacon Sports will pay $3 million for a new scoreboard and improvements in player-development facilities (clubhouses, etc.). Including lease payments, Beacon Sports is committing $5.5 million during the 10-year lease.
> 
> Here's the full press release from the city of Ottawa:
> 
> The City of Ottawa has reached an agreement in principle with a private sector proponent for the Ottawa Stadium that will be recommended to the City’s Finance and Economic Development Committee in a report to be issued later today.
> 
> On November 9, 2011, staff presented a report to City Council outlining the process to issue a Request for Offers (RFO) to lease the Ottawa Stadium for long-term baseball use. With Council’s approval, an RFO was issued on November 15, 2011 and closed on December 12, 2011.
> 
> The City’s desired outcome for this “best offers to lease” process was to secure a long-term tenant for the baseball field with a valid business plan involving a professional or semi-professional baseball franchise, subsequently minimizing the City’s financial resources directed to the stadium facility. A Fairness Commissioner was retained to ensure the openness, transparency, impartiality and objectivity of the process.
> 
> Staff today tabled a report with the results of the RFO process, which recommends that the City negotiate a long-term lease for the use of the stadium with Beacon Sports Capital Partners as the authorized representative for a stipulated professional baseball franchise that is a member of the AA Eastern League of Minor League Baseball. This could potentially mean the return of AA baseball to Ottawa as early as the spring of 2013.
> 
> “This is an important milestone towards bringing professional baseball back to the City of Ottawa for the enjoyment of all residents,” said Mayor Jim Watson. “Returning pro ball to Ottawa, will allow the City to preserve this important purpose-built facility, maximize the use of an existing City asset and provide an additional recreation venue for our residents. It also permits us to minimize the City’s financial resources being directed to the facility over the long-term.”
> 
> In the proposed deal, Beacon Sports proposes a 10-year lease term with two five-year extension options for an AA member club of the Eastern League Minor League Baseball to play at the Ottawa Stadium The governance rules of the Eastern League preclude the acknowledgment of a specific franchise and potential Major League affiliation until approvals for the relocation and designation have been sought and secured.
> 
> Beacon Sports is proposing to invest approximately $2,000,000 into the facility for player development improvements and would also lease a new scoreboard that is estimated to cost an additional $1,000,000. In addition, both Beacon and the City would invest equally towards a lifecycle reserve fund.
> 
> Prior to the spring of 2013, the City would need to invest approximately $2,700,000 for various deferred lifecycle improvements to the stadium as well as $3,000,000 for various improvements to meet Minor League Baseball standards.
> 
> The City has secured an increase in base rent from $108,000 to $257,000 per annum for the initial 10-year term and for the first five-year extension option. This level of rent represents a 240-per-cent annual increase and will contribute significantly towards recovering various start-up costs in order to prepare the stadium for the spring of 2013.
> 
> In total, the City will invest $5.7 in capital cost and Beacon Sports will invest $5,500,000 so that baseball can begin at the Stadium in 2013.
> 
> Mayor Watson also wishes to commend Councillors Peter Clark, the ward councillor for the facility, as well as Councillors Rick Chiarelli and Bob Monette, for their hard work over the past six months in helping to move this development forward.
> 
> “This has been a real team effort involving my Council colleagues,” said Mayor Watson. “The City remains cautiously optimistic that we will be able to secure a major league affiliation – the final major hurdle in bringing baseball back to the City.”
> 
> “This is an important facility for the residents of Rideau-Rockcliffe and for residents across the City,” said Councillor Peter Clark.” If there is a cost-effective way to preserve the Ottawa Stadium for its original purpose, then of course I will be supporting the staff report.”
> 
> “I am pleased to see that City staff is recommending that the City move to finalize an agreement for the long-term use of the baseball stadium,” said Orleans Ward Councillor Bob Monette. “I have always argued that this exceptional City asset should not be demolished and that the City should do what it can, within a responsible fiscal framework, to bring pro baseball back to the Nation’s Capital. I will continue to work with the Mayor and my Council colleagues on the important next steps that remain to make this project a reality.”
> 
> College Ward Councillor Rick Chiarelli, a long-time proponent of baseball in Ottawa, is also delighted to hear that staff will be recommending a long-term lease to Council. “I will continue to be involved in these efforts and also will be voting to maintain the stadium’s original purpose,” he said. “This agreement is more desirable than mothballing this valuable public facility. I am convinced that a new team, under solid management, could market pro baseball as an exciting form of family entertainment for the residents of Ottawa. I also support the decision to protect an important asset in which the people of Ottawa have invested $17 million to build and will continue to have to invest in lifecycle to maintain the stadium over the lifetime of the facility.”
> 
> The report will be considered by the Finance and Economic Development Committee on February 16, 2012, and by City Council on February 22, 2012.


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## Commandant

From the NASL website:



> The North American Soccer League (NASL) today announced that Ottawa, Ontario has been awarded an expansion franchise. The new team will be owned by the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group (OSEG) and play home games at Lansdowne Park. The franchise will commence League play upon the completion of a major stadium reconstruction project which is expected to commence later this year. The North American Soccer League is a Division II men’s outdoor professional soccer league with teams based in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.
> 
> “We welcome Ottawa to the NASL,” said League Commissioner David Downs. “As we continue to expand and collectively grow professional soccer in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean, Ottawa is a natural market with a vibrant business community, large soccer fan base and an exceptional ownership group.”
> 
> OSEG partner John Pugh, who is also the CEO and Owner of the Ottawa Fury Soccer Club, has been named President of the new NASL franchise. Pugh says he’s committed to building a successful team on and off the field: "This will be, by far, the highest calibre of soccer we’ll have seen in Ottawa since the 2007 FIFA Men’s U-20 World Cup,” said Pugh. “We are committed to fielding a competitive team from the get-go, providing a lively, entertaining game day experience for families and establishing strong ties with all soccer players and fans across the region. It’s a privilege to have this opportunity.”
> 
> Ottawa’s new 24,000 seat soccer-friendly downtown stadium will be built to exact FIFA specifications. The City of Ottawa and OSEG are partners in the project and Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson says it’s an exciting time for the entire city: “Residents are excited about NASL soccer, our bid for the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup, CFL football and other events that will take place in Ottawa thanks to a newly redeveloped Lansdowne Park," said Mayor Watson. "With 65,000 registered players in our region playing the world's game, it’s high time Ottawa had a professional soccer team and a world-class stadium.”
> 
> OSEG is offering Ottawa soccer fans an opportunity to reserve the right to purchase season tickets for their NASL team before they become available to the public at large. A limited number of priority reservation numbers (PRNs) are now available for a fully-refundable $25 deposit or free for current season ticket holders for the Ottawa Fury and Ottawa 67’s and PRN holders for Ottawa’s new CFL football franchise Details for this program are available at www.ottawafury.com or www.ottawa67s.com.


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## Commandant

No more baseball at TELUS Field this summer... From BallparkDigest:



> Edmonton out of North American League
> 
> The Edmonton Capitals have pulled out of the independent North American League, saying only three other Northern Division teams are committed to the circuit for 2012.
> 
> The team's presence in the league was seen as iffy by insiders after it became apparent travel mate Calgary Vipers were not going to field a team this season.
> 
> From a statement issued by the team:
> 
> "With just four teams registered for the 2012 season in the Northern Division of the NAL, down from ten teams in 2009, it is no longer acceptable for the Capitals to continue operations under such circumstances. In addition to the Capitals, the other four squads are based in Yuma, Arizona, San Rafael (San Francisco), California, and Maui, Hawaii."
> 
> The team drew 125,000 customers last season at Telus Field. The Capitals are owned by Rexall Sports and Entertainment, which also owns the NHL's Edmonton Oilers.
> 
> With only three teams, the future of the NAL's Northern Division is in serious doubt. However, the league's other division -- six Texas teams playing in five venues -- has already released a schedule that calls for no inter-division play.


Some pics of TELUS Field:

















Images courtesy of DGenio









Image courtesy of Edmonton Economic Development Corporation's


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## Welkin

Commandant said:


> No more baseball at TELUS Field this summer... From BallparkDigest:
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics of TELUS Field:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Images courtesy of DGenio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image courtesy of Edmonton Economic Development Corporation's


That's a shame. I have enjoyed many a game in that ballpark. I am glad to see that Ottawa is getting a minor league team. It is getting harder and harder to catch a minor league game here in Canada.


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## carnifex2005

Commandant said:


> No more baseball at TELUS Field this summer... From BallparkDigest:
> 
> 
> 
> Some pics of TELUS Field:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Images courtesy of DGenio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image courtesy of Edmonton Economic Development Corporation's


FC Edmonton of the NASL (Division 2 soccer) are trying to see if they can use that field for this season while they try to get a new soccer specific stadium built for the 2015 Women's World Cup.


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## isaidso

Toronto3 said:


> Lol i've never heard that but really the spirit is born from the rivalry between mine and another close school... So i'm not too sure about other schools in Mississauga


Some Moncton, NB high school games draw 2000-4000 fans. Everyone goes and they make a whole day out of it.


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## isaidso

Welkin said:


> It is getting harder and harder to catch a minor league game here in Canada.


Tell me about it. What's left?


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## Welkin

isaidso said:


> Tell me about it. What's left?


I only know of four teams. Vancouver Canadians-Northwest League, Quebec Capitales-Can-Am League, London Rippers (love the name)- Frontier League and Winnipeg Goldeyes- American Association of Independent Baseball. It is nowhere near what it used to be. I'll be looking forward to games when I am up in Ottawa.


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## isaidso

Welkin said:


> I only know of four teams. Vancouver Canadians-Northwest League, Quebec Capitales-Can-Am League, London Rippers (love the name)- Frontier League and Winnipeg Goldeyes- American Association of Independent Baseball. It is nowhere near what it used to be. I'll be looking forward to games when I am up in Ottawa.


4 (soon to be 5) teams is just awful. We should be at the stage where we're moving into cities like Kelowna and Saint John, but we don't even have the big cities with baseball. Montreal, Halifax, Calgary, Victoria, Hamilton, Kitchener, etc.


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## Commandant

carnifex2005 said:


> FC Edmonton of the NASL (Division 2 soccer) are trying to see if they can use that field for this season while they try to get a new soccer specific stadium built for the 2015 Women's World Cup.


I really hope they get to play at this great park... I'd hate for it to sit dormant like Ottawa Baseball Stadium has for so many years. I am appalled that the Blue Jays Triple-A affiliate is playing in a crappy ballpark (Cashman Field) 2,300 miles from Toronto, in a town that doesn't support it's sports teams (Las Vegas), when a great ballpark like this sits in Pacific Coast League territory and has an ownership group (Rexall Sports and Entertainment) that is willing to put in the effort to make baseball in Edmonton work.


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## JYDA

Commandant said:


> I really hope they get to play at this great park... I'd hate for it to sit dormant like Ottawa Baseball Stadium has for so many years. I am appalled that the Blue Jays Triple-A affiliate is playing in a crappy ballpark (Cashman Field) 2,300 miles from Toronto, in a town that doesn't support it's sports teams (Las Vegas), when a great ballpark like this sits in Pacific Coast League territory and has an ownership group (Rexall Sports and Entertainment) that is willing to put in the effort to make baseball in Edmonton work.


Paul Beeston said on the radio that they want to have their affiliates close by in Canada both for the convenience of proximity and for the branding of the Jays organization to appeal to more of Canada. I believe he said the Vegas deal is up at the end of the season.


----------



## Nate

Some news out of Regina while the new stadium is being planned:



> *$14 Million in upgrades coming to Mosaic Stadium*
> 
> The Saskatchewan Roughriders have unveiled plans today for a $14 million Grey Cup Legacy to enhance game day experience.
> 
> Phase one will add around 7,000 new temporary seats as well as corporate boxes to the north and south endzone.
> 
> The Maxtron will be replaced with a new 60 foot wide digital screen and scoreboard in the northeast endzone.
> 
> “This is a very ambitious and much needed plan for Mosaic stadium over the next few years,” stated Riders chairman of the board Roger Brandvold. “Replacing Mosaic stadium still remains our top priority, but certain upgrades needed to be made to get us through the next few years and especially the 2013 grey cup.”
> 
> Phase two of the project will add another level of bleacher seats, and bring the stadiums capacity to almost 50, 000 in preparation for the Grey Cup game.
> 
> ‘While each phase of this plan is a temporary solution, its legacy will make an impact throughout Saskatchewan for decades to come.” Stated Riders president/CEO Jim Hopson. “When the new stadium is ready and the stands are no longer needed, each section can be dismantled and donated to amateur sports programs across our province.”
> 
> “The government of Saskatchewan is proud to provide a $6.2 million, low interest loan to the Saskatchewan Roughriders for the legacy upgrades,” said Minister of Tourism, Parks, Culture and sport Bill Hutchinson. “We want to make sure every fan, every visitor and every resident has the best experience possible when they visit Regina.”
> 
> Phase one construction will start in 2012.
> 
> http://www.globalregina.com/14+million+in+upgrades+coming+to+mosaic+stadium/6442588075/story.html


There is also a video that explains the project more fully on the Global News page, so click the link if you want to see it.


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## Commandant

JYDA said:


> Paul Beeston said on the radio that they want to have their affiliates close by in Canada both for the convenience of proximity and for the branding of the Jays organization to appeal to more of Canada. I believe he said the Vegas deal is up at the end of the season.


Does this mean the return of Triple-A baseball to Edmonton since Ottawa is off the board?


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## carnifex2005

Commandant said:


> Does this mean the return of Triple-A baseball to Edmonton since Ottawa is off the board?


Last I heard, the Blue Jays are hoping to put a team in Montreal.


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## elly63

Riders plan $14M upgrade to stadium
CBC News Feb 24, 2012










The Saskatchewan Roughriders plan to add seats in several parts of Mosaic Stadium, in several stages leading up to the Grey Cup game of 2013. (Image supplied by the Saskatchewan Roughriders)

While maintaining a new football stadium remains a top priority, the Saskatchewan Roughriders are planning $14 million in fixes and upgrades, including a new seating area, for the existing Mosaic Stadium in Regina.

The new seats, some temporary and some permanent, will be installed in time for the 2013 Grey Cup game, which will be hosted by the club.

About 50,000 seats will be in place for the game. After that, the ongoing capacity of the stadium will be around 33,000, about 3,000 more than it currently holds for a sell-out game.

The club will also upgrade the video scoreboard.

"The $14 million plan will enhance the game-day experience," the club said in a news release issued Friday.

"Replacing Mosaic Stadium still remains our top priority, but certain upgrades needed to be made to get us through the next few years and especially the 2013 Grey Cup," Roger Brandvold, chair of the club, said.

The changes will be done in stages and will begin with the addition of about 7,000 temporary seats -- and some corporate boxes, to the north and south end zone areas. They will include concessions and washroom facilities.

The team said the temporary elements will be donated to amateur sports, if the team moves into a new facility.

"When the new stadium is ready, and the stands are no longer needed, each section can be dismantled and donated to amateur sports programs across our province; allowing friends and family to watch their little, future all-star in comfort," Rider president Jim Hopson promised.

Part of the project is being supported by a low-interest loan from the provincial government.


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## elly63

Riders announce stadium upgrades
Leader-Post February 24, 2012

Here’s the official release:

RIDERS UNVEIL “GREY CUP LEGACY PROJECT”

The Saskatchewan Roughriders unveiled plans today for the Grey Cup Legacy Project. The $14 million plan will enhance the game-day experience, add thousands of temporary seats, create new revenue opportunities, and leave a legacy for amateur sport programs across the province.

“This is a very ambitious and much needed plan for Mosaic Stadium over the next few years,” stated Riders Chairman Roger Brandvold. “Replacing Mosaic Stadium still remains our top priority, but certain upgrades needed to be made to get us through the next few years and especially the 2013 Grey Cup. I’d like to thank our partners at the Government of Saskatchewan and City of Regina for their support in this undertaking.”

Phase one will add approximately 7,000 temporary seats, as well as corporate boxes, to the north and south end zones; complete with their own concessions and washroom facilities – and creating a bowl-like atmosphere for fans.

The SaskTel Maxtron will be replaced by a new, 60-foot wide, fully digital LED screen and scoreboard in the Northeast endzone; accompanied by a vertical, digital billboard for use exclusively by our sponsors.

This state-of-the-art, new SaskTel Maxtron will be visible from most points in the stadium. But for those in the east stands and north endzone a 55 foot wide digital LED display and scoreboard attached to the West grandstand.

Additional LED ribbons will also be placed at field level on the East side and along the grandstand fascia of the west side, adding more areas to display statistics and player profiles.

Phase two of the Grey Cup Legacy Project will add another level of bleacher seats, and bring the stadium’s capacity to almost 50,000 in preparation for the Grey Cup game.

After Grey Cup, only the second tier of temporary seats will be removed, maintaining the bowl-like atmosphere for up to 33,000 Rider fans.

“While each phase of this plan is a temporary solution, its legacy will make an impact throughout Saskatchewan for decades to come,” stated Riders President/CEO Jim Hopson. “When the new stadium is ready, and the stands are no longer needed, each section can be dismantled and donated to amateur sports programs across our province; allowing friends and family to watch their little, future all-star in comfort.”

“The Government of Saskatchewan is proud to provide a $6.2 million, low interest loan to the Saskatchewan Roughriders for the legacy upgrades”, said Minister of Tourism, Parks, Culture and Sport Bill Hutchinson. “We want to make sure that every fan, every resident and every visitor has the best experience possible when they visit Regina. We are also pleased that communities from Saskatchewan will benefit from the program by receiving the seating afterwards to help grow local sport and recreation – this truly is part of the Saskatchewan advantage.”

“The City of Regina’s priority is the Regina Revitalization Initiative, which includes replacing Mosaic Stadium and redeveloping the current stadium site into a new neighbourhood with housing and commercial opportunities,” Regina City Manager Glen Davies said. “The City wholeheartedly supports this innovative project that will improve the fan experience during the final years of Mosaic Stadium, and in the long-term benefit the whole community at limited cost to Regina taxpayers.”

Mosaic stadium is owned and operated by the City of Regina. The Regina Revitalization Initiative includes plans to re-develop large areas of land in the heart of Regina with housing, commercial and retail opportunities and replace Mosaic Stadium with a state of the art facility. Construction of the new stadium is scheduled to begin in 2013, with completion in 2016.


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## elly63

Roughriders, provincial government team up on stadium facelift
REGINA - The Canadian Press Feb. 24, 2012

The Saskatchewan Roughriders and the province are teaming up to give Mosaic Stadium a facelift in time for the 2013 Grey Cup.

The CFL team will spend $14-million to improve the facility as part of a Grey Cup legacy project the Riders unveiled Friday. The provincial government will also provide a $6.2-million loan.

The plan is to turn the stadium into a bowl and boost its seating capacity to 33,000. An 18 metre-high LED screen will be also be added.

Club chairman Roger Brandvold says while the goal remains to build a new stadium, the improvements to Mosaic were needed with Regina hosting the 2013 Grey Cup.

“This is a very ambitious and much needed plan for Mosaic Stadium over the next few years,” Brandvold said Friday in a statement. “Replacing Mosaic Stadium still remains our top priority, but certain upgrades needed to be made to get us through the next few years and especially the 2013 Grey Cup.”

The project's first phase will see the addition of 7,000 temporary seats as well as corporate boxes to the north and south end zones. The first phase will also include new concession and washroom facilities to create a bowl-like atmosphere and boost the seating capacity to 33,000.

The second phase will add another level of bleachers to increase overall capacity to almost 50,000 for the Grey Cup game.

Following the Grey Cup, only the second tier of temporary seats will be removed to maintain the bowl-like configuration for up to 33,000 fans.

“While each phase of this plan is a temporary solution, its legacy will make an impact throughout Saskatchewan for decades to come,” said team president Jim Hopson. “When the new stadium is ready, and the stands are no longer needed, each section can be dismantled and donated to amateur sports programs across our province.”

Construction of a new stadium is scheduled to begin in 2013 with completion expected in 2016.

Mosaic stadium is owned and operated by the city of Regina.


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## elly63

PHOTOS: Sask. Roughriders announce Grey Cup Legacy Project

Will spend $14M on enhancing Mosaic Stadium and province to loan $6.2M.
Samantha Maciag Feb 24, 2012 

The Riders have announced they're spending $14 million to enhance Mosaic Stadium.

It's part of a Grey Cup legacy project and they're not doing it alone. The province has also provided a $6.2 million loan.

The Riders want to turn the stadium into a bowl. They're adding a new 60-foot LED screen and moving the scoreboard to the northeast corner next to Section 23.

They're also adding seats -- capacity will be increased to nearly 50,000 prior to Grey Cup with a second level of bleacher seats. After the big game, the second tier will be removed but the bowl-like atmosphere will stay and capacity will be 33,000.

Chairman Roger Brandvold insists their goal is still to build a new stadium, but says improvements are needed for the 2013 Grey Cup and to keep pace with the league. Construction on the new stadium is to start in 2013 and finish in 2016.

No substitute for new stadium

To many, the Mosaic upgrades would seem to dash dreams of a new stadium.

Mayor Pat Fiacco says it couldn't be further from the truth.

"The City of Regina will not be investing dollars into Mosaic Stadium. That's not what we're doing, our money is going to be invested in a new facility," he said.

"This is a temporary fix for a very important event that's going to happen in Regina, and that is the Grey Cup."


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## elly63

Mosaic Stadium getting $14 million upgrade
Ian Hamilton, Leader-Post February 24, 2012

REGINA — The Saskatchewan Roughriders have decided to dress up their aging home - but they still plan to move.

"Our focus and drive has not changed for a new stadium," Roger Brandvold, the chairman of the Roughriders' board, said Friday during a media conference announcing the Grey Cup Legacy Project — a $14-million plan to upgrade Mosaic Stadium.

"You certainly heard the message from His Worship, Mayor Pat Fiacco, and city council's commitment to the new stadium. Trust me: We will not give up on this goal."

"Overall, we feel very good about this (new) project from a business point of view, what it offers to our fans over the next four years and our partners," added Roughriders president-CEO Jim Hopson. "But we must stress that this is not a permanent solution. It is a temporary solution and our ultimate goal still is to move into a new stadium in 2016."

The "temporary solution" is a two-pronged project to renovate Mosaic Stadium, not only for the CFL seasons before the club moves but also for the 2013 Grey Cup.

That season, Regina is to play host to the CFL's championship game for the third time; the trophy also was presented on Taylor Field in 1995 and 2003.

Having seen recent Grey Cups staged in upgraded facilities in Edmonton and Vancouver, the Roughriders decided to revamp Mosaic Stadium. As Brandvold said Friday: "The Grey Cup will be one of the biggest single events in the history of this province and requires appropriate facilities to provide a quality experience."

As a result, the Roughriders came up with the Legacy Project.

The provincial government has loaned the Roughriders $6.2 million, while the club will cover the remainder of the cost through its capital account. Hopson said the club believes the renovation ultimately will create revenue, so the Roughriders view the project as an investment as opposed to an expenditure.

The first phase involves the construction in the end zones of approximately 7,000 individual seats — 3,000 in the north end zone and 4,000 in the south — along with 27 corporate suites, creating a bowl. The new sections are to feature enclosed concourses as well as their own concession and washroom facilities.

The current Maxtron is to be replaced by a 60-foot-wide digital LED screen and scoreboard in the northeast end of the stadium as well as a 55-foot-wide digital LED scoreboard attached to the west grandstand.

As well, LED "ribbons" are to be mounted at field level on the east stands and along the west grandstand.

Hopson noted construction crews already are on site, as the team hopes to have the new pieces in place for the 2012 season.

The second phase of the project includes the erection of another level of temporary seats that would bring Mosaic Stadium's seating capacity for the Grey Cup to approximately 50,000.

Bill Hutchinson, Saskatchewan's minister of tourism, parks, culture and sport, said the cost to provincial taxpayers will be minimal because the government is making a loan to the Roughriders that will be paid back, with interest.

The province has been involved in the process of looking into a new entertainment facility in Regina — a building in which the Roughriders would play — but Hutchinson said there wasn't any disappointment that the government was helping with the Legacy Project instead of funding a new facility.

"This is a different kind of a project," he said. "We need to get ready for Grey Cup '13. We have a stadium in need of some improvements in order to host that game properly and to give fans the experience that they are looking for and deserve. That's what this project is going to do.

"The other half of the project that's very exciting from our perspective is, it is indeed a legacy project. A significant portion of the seating will be dismantled after Grey Cup and distributed to communities around the province to enable them to attract more fans to their local games."

The second level of seats is to be donated to interested amateur sports programs around Saskatchewan following the Grey Cup — hence the "legacy" aspect.

Fiacco feted the Roughriders for that part of the project, as well as for making Mosaic Stadium more hospitable for Grey Cup patrons.

He noted that while the city will continue to invest in Mosaic Stadium as its owner — in terms of maintenance and operations — it remains committed to a new building.

"Make no mistake: Construction starts in 2013, (there will be) a brand-new facility in 2016 and in the meantime, this is a bit of a teaser what the fans are going to be able to experience with a new facility," Fiacco said. "This is temporary and I don't think anybody wants a permanent temporary facility."


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## elly63

Mosaic Stadium, Regina, Saskatchewan $14 million upgrade


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## Scba

At some point that stadium is going to have a higher capacity than Regina does population.


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## Nate

Woah there elly.. did you post every news article you could find on the project? 

And Scba, I doubt we'll be getting a new 220,000 (and increasing) seat stadium... that would definitely be intense though. Put the May Day Stadium in Pyongyang to shame. :lol:


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## Commandant

carnifex2005 said:


> Last I heard, the Blue Jays are hoping to put a team in Montreal.


Speaking of Montreal, someone posted some interesting architectural renderings for a 6,000-seat ballpark over at Baseball Fever... I love how the facade is to look like Delorimier Downs. If anyone speaks French, I'd like to know what the rest of the captions says:


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## elly63

Nate said:


> Woah there elly.. did you post every news article you could find on the project?


Well, if I thought people would read them instead of asking questions that are already answered in them, I would.


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## Neda Say

Nice Upgrade, I do like this:



elly63 said:


> Mosaic Stadium, Regina, Saskatchewan $14 million upgrade
> 
> But this is not that good:


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## Nate

^^How else would you propose adding the extra 20k seats necessary to host the Grey Cup? I'd say what they've done is the best option available. I like that there is angling in the corners; better than a straight across end zone set of stands that doesn't point the spectators to the field in the corners.


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## elly63

Just noticed this thread on the Stockholmsarenan in Sweden. Despite early allusions to the FargoDome in North Dakota, the Stockholmsarenan was to be the model for the new Regina stadium.

I'm a little fearful that some of the momentum is being lost on the Regina stadium project. The Riders aren't as successful on the field as they were a few years ago and project booster Mayor Pat Fiacco is stepping down.

However, Fiacco's preferred successor Michael Fougere is in favour of the project.


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## isaidso

Welkin said:


> Considering how poorly the money losing "Bills in Toronto" series went, who would spend that kind of cash to bring a team to a city full of apathetic football fans. I don't know of any football crazy billionaires floating around Ontario looking to buy an NFL team. Even the NFL commissioner thinks that all the NFL in Toronto talk is dead.


Agree 100%. Toronto needs to stop eyeing the greener grass on the other side of the fence and refocus on the football team it already has. This city can barely support one football team and it wants another one? What a joke!



carnifex2005 said:


> The problem is that if Toronto got the Olympics the legacy will be an NFL team. A 70,000+ stadium is the only thing holding back NFL from going to Toronto.


Nonsense. The NFL has little interest in the Toronto market. The legacy team has to be Toronto's current football team, the Argonauts. There is no reason why Toronto can't build a 80,000 seat Olympic stadium that is reduced to a 40,000 seat CFL specific facility after the Games. 

Stadium Australia had a capacity of 110,000 for the Sydney Olympics and was reduced by 27,000 seats afterwards. The reconfiguration of Stadium Australia cost $80 million. They removed the 2 wing stands and the athletics track as well as other alterations. Toronto will have to do follow a similar path.


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## carnifex2005

Welkin said:


> It is going to take a lot more than just a 70,000 seat stadium for Toronto to ever get a NFL team. Don't forget that NFL teams can only be owned by individuals and not by corporations (no Rogers or MLSE need apply). So you would need either a team willing to move there (as opposed to moving to Los Angeles, London or San Antonio/Austin) or you would need a very wealthy individual with a spare couple of billion dollars (who would have to outbid all the other billionaires who also want to own a NFL team in their city) to buy a team and move it to Toronto. Considering how poorly the money losing "Bills in Toronto" series went, who would spend that kind of cash to bring a team to a city full of apathetic football fans. I don't know of any football crazy billionaires floating around Ontario looking to buy an NFL team. Even the NFL commissioner thinks that all the NFL in Toronto talk is dead.


True for the most part but Ted Rogers did want to do so and was nosing around the Toronto Olympic bid about their future stadium plans before he died. I have a feeling that if another Olympic bid comes about, some group will be hoping to get that stadium for NFL after the games because frankly, getting a state of the art facility that could house a NFL team for free is most of the battle. Even the NFL have stated they aren't ruling out the possibility of further expansion if the "right situation" comes about. Since Toronto is a huge metro area the NFL wouldn't turn down a bid.
That being said, I highly doubt that Toronto are ever getting the games in my lifetime. Far too expense. Even the Vancouver Olympics were the breaking point on spending and the Winter games cost far, far less than the Summer ones.


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## cormiermax

Toronto seems to have its hands full with the Pan-ams, which seems to be a continuing pattern in Toronto with hosting big events, I don't know why but they cant seem to organize them properly. I'm sure we will see a Toronto bid for the 2024 games though, as the Canadian Olympic Committee seems too be yearning for a summer games and Toronto is currently the only city interested/capable. 

As for the NFL, Toronto has a hard enough time with the Argos.


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## elly63

Impact’s $23M expansion a relative bargain
Don Muret, Staff Writer SportsBusiness Journal Daily February 27, 2012

The Montreal Impact is expanding its four-year-old soccer stadium to meet Major League Soccer standards at a fraction of the cost of the league’s newest venues.

The Impact moves up to MLS this season after playing last year in the North American Soccer League. Before that, the team competed for several seasons in the United Soccer Leagues.

The $23 million expansion, now under construction, will push Saputo Stadium’s seating from 13,034 to 20,341 and boost the number of suites from 16 to 35. The facility is next to Olympic Stadium and opened in 2008 at a cost of $17 million.

The team will play its first five home games at Olympic Stadium before moving back to Saputo Stadium in mid-June after the expansion is completed, said Richard Legendre, executive vice president. The first game back is scheduled for June 16 against Seattle.

At a total cost of $40 million, Saputo Stadium’s price tag is far below what it cost MLS clubs to build new stadiums in other markets. Livestrong Sporting Park and Red Bull Arena, built in 2011 and 2010, respectively, cost $200 million and $150 million.

With the province of Quebec financing the project, the Impact went lean with the expansion and decided against adding a stage, loading docks and other infrastructure upgrades to accommodate concerts and other special events.

Team officials saw those design elements at some of the 10 to 12 MLS stadiums they visited over the past year, but felt those extra features did not make good business sense in a market where Bell Centre is the dominant concert venue, Legendre said.

“To have two to three concerts during the summer doesn’t justify the additional investment, and physically, at Olympic Park, there was not much space to expand,” he said. “This will be soccer only. We made that choice.”

Saputo Stadium sits on the site of the old track and field practice facility for the 1976 Olympics, and the Impact was able to use part of the existing bleacher structure during original construction. As a result, the north-side stands sit lower than the south side, Legendre said.

Of the 7,000 new seats, 3,500 make up the new west grandstand, with an additional 1,250 seats in the southeast and southwest corners. About 1,000 seats were added to the east grandstand.

The existing roof will extend over the upper rows of each grandstand and cover about 7,000 total seats, including the middle sections on the north and south sides, where top-end season-ticket holders pay $70 a game

The team has sold about 70 percent of the suites, Legendre said. They run $22,000 a year for eight seats and $32,000 annually for 12 seats. Terms are three and six years. Game tickets are included, but food and drink is a separate cost.

There is space behind both goals to build a few more suites if needed, Legendre said.

The Impact will continue to use Olympic Stadium for bigger international matches. The club previously drew 55,000 for a CONCACAF Champions League quarterfinal game in 2009 and about 48,000 against AC Milan in 2010.


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## JYDA

It's not really a "bargain". You get what you pay for. Saputo Stadium is similar in quality to Crew Stadium in Columbus.


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## Benn

I would put it a step ahead of crew stadium, but its certainly nowhere near the finish level of KC, New York or the like. But to the average fan is it going to be that much different than the majority of the venues in MLS? I doubt it, good sightlines, looks comfortable enough and appears like it will have the requisite facilities even if it goes look a bit cheap.


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## Cjones2451

Benn said:


> I would put it a step ahead of crew stadium, but its certainly nowhere near the finish level of KC, New York or the like. But to the average fan is it going to be that much different than the majority of the venues in MLS? I doubt it, good sightlines, looks comfortable enough and appears like it will have the requisite facilities even if it goes look a bit cheap.


And all things being equal would you rather watch a game here or at Gillette Stadium, or RFK, or Buck Shaw in San Jose.
Overall I think it is a good (not Great) MLS stadium and they have the flexibility to move to Olympic Stadium for Big Event Games


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## Benn

Cjones2451 said:


> And all things being equal would you rather watch a game here or at Gillette Stadium, or RFK, or Buck Shaw in San Jose.
> Overall I think it is a good (not Great) MLS stadium and they have the flexibility to move to Olympic Stadium for Big Event Games


Exactly, If I had to class it against other MLS venues I would put it in the same general range as Toronto, Colorado, Dallas, Philly, Portland and the New San Jose stadium; definitely better situation than Columbus, DC, New England but not quite up to what LA, Salt Lake or Houston have and definitely not what New York, Seattle or KC in particular have. And this is strictly in terms of stadium quality to the fan, not how has the best support etc.


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## SJAnfield

Benn said:


> Exactly, If I had to class it against other MLS venues I would put it in the same general range as Toronto, Colorado, Dallas, Philly, Portland and the New San Jose stadium; definitely better situation than Columbus, DC, New England but not quite up to what LA, Salt Lake or Houston have and definitely not what New York, Seattle or KC in particular have. And this is strictly in terms of stadium quality to the fan, not how has the best support etc.


I would have to disagree with putting Portland, Colorado and San Jose in the same category. San Jose because we haven't seen it yet. I think it has great potential to be intimate, loud, and has a unique European style design (and yes I'm very biased being a loyal Earthquake supporter). Ive been to both Portland and Colorado and they are amazing facilities. Even before the renovation, Portland's stadium was a great venue for soccer. After the renovation its even better. Great sight lines and the roof makes for an amazing fan experiance. Colorado's stadium is very similar to the HDC. When I went I felt it was almost a replica.


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## Darloeye

The Impact have a great stadium its a simply design that works so well and since it was a remove of a stadium already built its a great job. It could be built in the uk tomorrow and no one would know that its being built in Canada.


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## Benn

SJAnfield said:


> I would have to disagree with putting Portland, Colorado and San Jose in the same category. San Jose because we haven't seen it yet. I think it has great potential to be intimate, loud, and has a unique European style design (and yes I'm very biased being a loyal Earthquake supporter). Ive been to both Portland and Colorado and they are amazing facilities. Even before the renovation, Portland's stadium was a great venue for soccer. After the renovation its even better. Great sight lines and the roof makes for an amazing fan experiance. Colorado's stadium is very similar to the HDC. When I went I felt it was almost a replica.


Portland has quite a few obstructed views and some concourse issues in the original portion, I know that the atmosphere is second to none but I was commenting on the stadium not the fans. And I for one have always found Colorado to be underwhelming. Also I know the new San Jose stadium isn't built yet but seems like a done deal and I for one am pretty impressed with everything but the location (especially given the budget). One would argue that it being a Horseshoe layout and having an open concourse near field level would make it something other than a "European design", which I would encourage, trying to find a more culturally specific mode of design would be ideal.


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## MegasAlexandros




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## JYDA

The Calgary Flames purchased the Calgary Stampeders football team this week and this tidbit about a new joint facility was mentioned:

_"We are smack in the middle of planning for a new building. I think we've been pretty public about that," King continued. "We haven't talked about what that might look like or exactly where it will be . . . Now, only now, we'll look in to determine if it makes any sense at all to try and combine a stadium and arena. We'll look closely at that. But that's not to be confused with a master plan that we're going to pull out tomorrow."_

http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Flames+complete+power+play/6384128/story.html#ixzz1qfaEZ6Ew


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## Lord David

JYDA said:


> It's not really a "bargain". You get what you pay for. Saputo Stadium is similar in quality to Crew Stadium in Columbus.


Particularly so when one considers the temporary Empire Field in Vancouver having had a much larger capacity and cost a mere 15 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Field#cite_note-4

Even if it were temporary, it's design is conventional to the point where anyone could adopt it, build it for the same price and just claim it being permanent. After all, it does have a concrete base and secured stands.


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## elly63

Lord David said:


> Even if it were temporary, it's design is conventional to the point where anyone could adopt it, build it for the same price and just claim it being permanent. After all, it does have a concrete base and secured stands.


And no concessions, toilets, administrative offices, properly equipped locker rooms or training areas.


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## elly63

Hamilton seeks protection for any Pan Am delays
Kevin Werner, News Staff March, 26, 2012

Hamilton politicians and city officials are looking to the provincial government to cover up to $2 million in lost revenue to the city and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats if the new Ivor Wynne Stadium isn’t ready by its July 1, 2014 completion date.

City officials have talked to Tiger-Cat representatives about the possibility that the club may have to miss a home game if the $154-million facility isn’t ready by the July 1 date.

Scott Mitchell, president of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, said the club could lose anywhere between $1.6 million to $2 million in revenue, while the city would forego about $200,000 from one home date.

“It would be a big impact on the city to lose (the money),” said Mitchell. “The city is concerned. But nobody is anything but positive that the stadium will be ready in time. (The request to the province) is a smart thing to do.”

Tony Tollis, Hamilton’s treasurer, asked during a Pan Am Precinct sub-committee meeting March 26, if Infrastructure Ontario could guarantee the city it would be reimbursed in any lost revenue or added expenses if the stadium isn’t ready on time.

But John McKendrick, senior vice president, AFP and Major Projects for Infrastructure Ontario, said he didn’t have the authority to make that guarantee to the municipality.

“It would require the commitment of the minister of Infrastructure Ontario,” said McKendrick.

Ward 3 councillor Bernie Morelli urged the subcommittee to approve a motion to ask the provincial government to indemnify the city for any costs in case the stadium isn’t ready.

“What we are trying to do is save us an expense that could occur if (the stadium) goes south,” he said.

The motion is expected to be debated at the March 28 council meeting.

McKendrick insisted that everything is being done to make sure the stadium and all the other venues for the 2015 Pan Am Games, will be ready by the deadline.

He reiterated the province and Toronto 2015 Pan Am organization committee’s statement that the games are being conducted “on time, and on budget.”

The province has already guaranteed it will cover any cost overruns of the games.

He said for instance, the companies that are awarded contracts for the venues, will need to borrow the money to begin the work. If the company doesn’t meet the deadlines that the province has established, the province won’t them for any work done, he said. And since the companies will still have to pay the interest on the loans they have taken out for the capital projects, the financial penalties could be very steep, he said. McKendrick estimated companies could be facing at least $25,000 per day in interest if they don’t meet the deadline.

“When you get $25,000, $50,000 per day in interest charges, you tend to get focused,” he said.

*The timeline to build the stadium and the other venues remains tight. The provincial government recently extended the request for proposals process on the stadium, velodrome and athletic facility from the end of March to May 24. The province will evaluate the RFPs over the next two months, with a bid being awarded in June. It will be another two months for the winning company to sign the contract with the province, expected sometime in September. The Tiger-Cats will still play out their 2012 season, but they will have to vacate the venue by Dec. 2, 2012. The construction will be monitored by the city, IO and Toronto 2015 to make sure all targets are met.*

“I think we have lined up all the ducks, to make sure (missed deadlines) are highly unlikely,” said McKendrick.

Meanwhile, city officials revealed it will cost less to oversee the Pan Am 2015 activities in Hamilton that was previously proposed. Initially, the city was told it would cost about $2.8 million in operating costs over the next four years for the Pan Am Games. But Coralee Secore, manager of Pan Am Initiatives, said it will not cost about $1.5 million.

For 2012, the cost is estimated to be $340,300, which will include two full-time employees. In 2013, the budget dips to $299,250, but in 2014, the budget jumps to $389,700, and three full-time staff. In 2015, the budget is projected to be $463,500.

The subcommittee approved the 2012 Pan Am budget, which will now go to the next government issues committee meeting.

The money is for administrative expenses, including a new office, and mileage. It does not cover the cost to provide a practice facility or dressing rooms for the Tiger-Cats.


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## Lord David

elly63 said:


> And no concessions, toilets, administrative offices, properly equipped locker rooms or training areas.


you use that as a base design. Add a couple of million for a few skyboxes, making it all individual seats, and adding concourses to the stands as opposed to "temporary" concession and toilet booths outside.

For say 20 - 30 million for a 27,000 seater modern stadium to host Football (Soccer) for example seems like a bargain price.


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## elly63

Update on new stadium finally coming
Mayor: expect full update by the end of the month
Patrick Book Apr 3, 2012

Regina Mayor Pat Fiacco says more information on the status of the new stadium proposal will be coming soon.

Joining John Gormley Live this morning, Fiacco said a complete *update on the progress of the project to build a new stadium* and completely redevelop the downtown area *will come to city council at the end of the month.*

"That will talk about the purchase of the CP land and also talk about the actual *new facility that is going to be built* and what we've heard from the private sectors," he said.

Fiacco decided to hold back on the information to wait for one larger announcement instead of releasing it in bits and pieces. Without the whole picture he says any small updates would only raise more questions.


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## Otto Racecar

Benn said:


> Exactly, If I had to class it against other MLS venues I would put it in the same general range as Toronto, Colorado, Dallas, Philly, Portland and the New San Jose stadium; definitely better situation than Columbus, DC, New England but not quite up to what LA, Salt Lake or Houston have and definitely not what New York, Seattle or KC in particular have. And this is strictly in terms of stadium quality to the fan, not how has the best support etc.


Although columbus is looking at new stadium options and realizes that crew stadium is not on par with red bull arena or livestrong park, I would not put it in the same category with old RFK,empty gillette,or buck shaw. Crew stadium has made numerous improvements in recent years with pitch level LED boards,more food options,improved parking,youth soccer pitches next to the stadium,better pregame festivities,huge banners on the exterior showing the teams history,etc.. It still has private clubs,luxury boxes,and great sightlines. I mean really if you put a partial roof on crew stadium it would be very similar to most of the other stadiums in the league toyota park,fc dallas etc..

I think saputo stadium is perfectly fine for the mls and they have a great option of playing at olympic for their larger crowds.


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## isaidso

Encouraging news regarding the Regina football stadium. I can't see it not going ahead as Mosaic is quickly reaching the end of its shelf life. The question remains what form the new stadium will take.

I'm hoping that they'll just bite the bullet and go all out; the $500 million they've been floating about would suggest so. I just loved that First Nations proposal, but as long as it's 38,000+ the Roughriders should do fine. They really shouldn't go smaller than that.


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## koolio

Calvin W said:


> Ok, honestly I think that Markham has about as much chance of landing an NHL team as Toronto has of winning the Stanley Cup....
> 
> First things first. Toronto needs an NHL team to have a chance at winning the cup.


Why is that even remotely relevant?


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## vitaming

It's gonna happen, let's get to talking names. York is a no go for obvious reasons, Ontario sounds too minor league.

I already put Toronto Rockets out there.

Toronto Tornadoes?

Toronto Titans?

Thunder would've been good, but I think OKC immediately now.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> It's outrageous that a few hundred citizens can jeopardize the plans of a metropolitan area of 1.2 million people. *Can these people be sued?*


City wins Lansdowne appeal; Watson urges Friends of Lansdowne not to appeal
David Reevely, The Ottawa Citizen April 30, 2012

OTTAWA — The Friends of Lansdowne have fought a good fight but should stand down now that the Ontario Court of Appeal has dismissed a legal effort to stop the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park, Mayor Jim Watson said Monday.

*In a unanimous ruling delivered Monday, three judges agreed with an earlier ruling that the city legally entered a partnership with the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group for the project and that the deal doesn’t constitute an illegal subsidy for a private business. They comprehensively rejected the case brought by the Friends of Lansdowne*.

“It is not for the courts to second guess or reweigh policy and financial considerations that informed the city’s decision to advance this development,” the ruling says. Whatever the merits of the Lansdowne plans, it says, there’s no proof the city conceived them improperly or did a dirty deal with OSEG to make them happen.

The unanimity means that the Friends of Lansdowne don’t have an automatic right to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada: a further appeal is still possible, but it would require the Supreme Court’s permission.

Don’t do it, Watson said at a lunch-hour news conference. “Both sides together have spent close to $1.5 million in total and we have two unanimous decisions that allow the work will proceed,” Watson said. “I believe it’s time to accept and respect the court’s validation of city council’s decisions and move forward with this important city-building project.”

The Friends’ opposition is genuine and passionate, Watson said, but enough is enough.

*City lawyer Rick O’Connor said if the case continues and the city wins, he’ll follow a recently revised policy that says the city should seek to have its legal bills paid by the other side. He estimated the city’s costs at $25,000 to deal with an application for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court, and a further $50,000 if such an appeal went ahead*.

Councillor Tim Tierney clapped his hands and pumped a fist when he heard the judges’ decision was unanimous. “Yes!” he said. “Let’s get going!”

The case, a challenge of the city’s plans to work with a group of private developers and sports businessmen to renovate Frank Clair Stadium, add a park to part of the property and commercial and residential buildings to the rest, was heard in November. Residents and politicians alike impatiently awaited the three-judge panel’s decision ever since.

The Friends of Lansdowne argued that the deal with the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group amounts to an illegal subsidy of their business, that the agreement was reached in bad faith, and that it violated the city’s own procurement bylaw. After a trial last summer, Justice Charles Hackland ruled comprehensively in the city’s favour, but the Friends appealed on the grounds that Hackland made numerous legal errors in his decision.

He didn’t, says the ruling from the three judges — written by Justice Susan Lang and agreed with by Justice Robert Blair and Chief Justice Warren Winkler — which supports Hackland’s findings in every respect. On the key question of whether a complex public-private partnership breaks the provincial law against municipalities’ subsidizing businesses, the appeal court said the deal has to be considered in its totality, not piecemeal. So even if parts of the Lansdowne plans do appear to give OSEG an unusual advantage, they’re permissible in the context of a larger deal.

Increasingly anxious city staff have been urging the city to move ahead with parts of the Lansdowne project that can be done independently of the partnership with OSEG. A final vote by city council is due in June; the hired-gun lawyer who handled the case for the city, Peter Doody, said that without a live court case over the plans, there’s no legal barrier holding them back.

The whole thing is to be done by summer 2015, but court delays are squeezing that timeline hard. It’s not clear what would happen to the plans if the Friends do try to take the appeal court’s ruling to the Supreme Court of Canada.

The Friends of Lansdowne and OSEG were still due to make public statements Monday afternoon.


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## Welkin

vitaming said:


> It's gonna happen, let's get to talking names. York is a no go for obvious reasons, *Ontario sounds too minor league.*
> 
> I already put Toronto Rockets out there.
> 
> Toronto Tornadoes?
> 
> Toronto Titans?
> 
> Thunder would've been good, but I think OKC immediately now.


No more minor league than British Columbia Lions, Saskatchewan Roughriders, Texas Rangers, Utah Jazz, New Jersey Devils, Carolina Hurricanes, New England Patriots, Tennessee Titans, Arizona Cardinals, Golden State Warriors, Minnesota Wild, Minnesota Timberwolves, Minnesota Vikings, Minnesota Twins, Florida Panthers, Arizona Diamondbacks, Colorado Rockies, New York Islanders, Colorado Avalanche, Carolina Panthers, Indiana Pacers, New Jersey Nets, ..............


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## vitaming

A few of those are to appeal to multiple large cities (Golden State, Minnesota) some because the town's name is too cumbersome (Salt Lake City) and some 1990s abortions from an era when New York/New Jersey MetroStars seemed like a good idea.

The trend is very much away from that. Look at the Miami Marlins or soon to be Brooklyn Nets.

And the CFL is as minor league as it gets. Where American uni rejects go to earn a cheque.:lol:


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## Nate

vitaming said:


> A few of those are to appeal to multiple large cities (Golden State, Minnesota) some because the town's name is too cumbersome (Salt Lake City) and some 1990s abortions from an era when New York/New Jersey MetroStars seemed like a good idea.
> 
> The trend is very much away from that. Look at the Miami Marlins or soon to be Brooklyn Nets.
> 
> And the CFL is as minor league as it gets. Where American uni rejects go to earn a cheque.:lol:


About 3.4% of American college football players make the NFL, are the other 96.6% complete crap? If so, please go to the states and tell them by and large their college programs suck, preferably someplace like Michigan on game day. Also, please let me know how large your American hospital bill is after they get done with you (or get your family to let me know how much it costs to ship a body back). 

I'm really sick of fellow Canadians ragging on the CFL. It's a good league, entertaining, and the only domestic professional league we have. Time to have some pride in something of our own instead of looking south for approval.. If you don't like it, feel free not to pay attention, but there's no reason to bash it every chance you get.


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## Cjones2451

Nate said:


> About 3.4% of American college football players make the NFL, are the other 96.6% complete crap? If so, please go to the states and tell them by and large their college programs suck, preferably someplace like Michigan on game day. Also, please let me know how large your American hospital bill is after they get done with you (or get your family to let me know how much it costs to ship a body back).
> 
> I'm really sick of fellow Canadians ragging on the CFL. It's a good league, entertaining, and the only domestic professional league we have. Time to have some pride in something of our own instead of looking south for approval.. If you don't like it, feel free not to pay attention, but there's no reason to bash it every chance you get.


Hear, Hear!!!!! I hate posts like that, I don't see those people strapping on the pads......


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## vitaming

Apols fellas, I did over egg things somewhat. Nowt wrong w the CFL, it's hardly an argument for provincial names though.

I played football and rugby in school btw. Strapped on a lid many times.


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## elly63

Your apology came just in time, I was gonna rip you a new one  Oddly enough I was watching a doc on Jeff Garcia today and the guru of the NFL, Bill Walsh, was talking about how the CFL can ramp up a players skills.


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## elly63

Council approves Regina Revitalization status update
Terrence McEachern Leader-Post April 30, 2012

REGINA — Regina City Council approved a much anticipated status update at Monday night's meeting on the estimated $1 billion inner-city revitalization and new stadium project.

But not without a little drama.

Chad Novak, a mayoral candidate in the upcoming municipal election, raised some concerns with the Regina Revitalization Initiative announced by Mayor Pat Fiacco on April 19, 2011.

Fiacco dissected Novak's presentation, in one instance criticizing Novak for using a $400 million estimate for the dome stadium because it wasn't cited in the status update. Novak responded that he based the estimate on the defunct provincial project.

Fiacco also questioned Novak's notion of "major cost overruns" on other projects besides the City Square Plaza. When pressed, Novak was unable to provide examples of other projects.

He was also unable to provide examples of "closed door meetings" when asked to clarify.

According to the status update from city administration, some of the areas that have been approved by council so far are the implementation of a business unit to oversee the project and the establishment of a vision and guiding principles. The city also conducted a P3 market sounding process and issued for request for proposals to hire consultants.

The project's unfinished business includes purchasing the 33-acre CP Rail yard south of Dewdney Avenue ― the proposed site for a new stadium along with commercial and retail development. The city anticipates purchasing the land sometime in May.

On the remaining 20-acre plot of land where the soon-to-be demolished Mosaic Stadium sits, the plan is to build 700 housing units and more commercial and retail development.

Other aspects of the project still unfinished are the cost and design concept for a new stadium, gaining final approval from council on the proposed P3 funding model for the project, hiring a developer to complete the work and determining a plan for operating the new stadium.

However, an outstanding item, described in the report as "the most significant element that could negatively affect the project" is provincial funding. The report indicates that a formal proposal was sent to the province in April, and the city expects a response to clarify the province's level of support in the upcoming weeks.

Construction on the new stadium is expected to begin in 2013 and completed in three years. The overall revitalization project is expected to take 10-15 years to complete.

The report also highlights another concern ― affordability. The city has about $100 million in debt and a debt limit of $200 million. But the debt limit could increase to $350 million if a recommendation to a committee on May 1 is ultimately approved by council.

Earlier on Monday, Saskatchewan Party Cabinet Minister Ken Cheveldayoff wouldn't say how much funding the city was seeking or how much the province was willing to provide, adding the province needs to review the proposal before it can provide a response.

"It's a proposal that outlines some of their vision and some of their wants as far as the proposal and it itemizes some of the details of the revitalization that they're looking at for downtown . . . In due course there will be more information coming forward," he said.

After the meeting, Fiacco said that funding from the private sector is would be 75 per cent of the overall project. However, without provincial funding, "the project is dead, plain and simple." The new plan would be to redevelop the CP land and "leave it at that."

The previous stadium project fell apart in March 2011 when the provincial government withdrew after the federal government declined to offer funding.

Coun. Michael Fougere (Ward 4) was absent from Monday's meeting.

— With files from Angela Hall


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## elly63

Saskatchewan Roughriders in wait-and-see mode regarding stadium plans
IAN HAMILTON Leader-Post April 30, 2012

REGINA — The Saskatchewan Roughriders remain in a holding pattern when it comes to a new stadium.

“We’re like everybody else: We’re waiting to see now,” Roughriders president and CEO Jim Hopson said Monday, when a report on the Regina Revitalization Initiative was presented to city council.

“As the city said, the process is on their timelines and they’re feeling good about it and now they’re waiting for the proposals and the costing. Once they get those, they can make a decision on type and location and all those sorts of things.

“They’ve been good (to deal with) and we’re just optimistic that by sometime this summer, hopefully we’ll have a much better indication of what’s going to happen.”

The report presented to council discussed the progress made on the revitalization plan, which involves changes to Regina’s inner city and the potential replacement of Mosaic Stadium — the current home of the CFL’s Roughriders.

The report said negotiations are continuing for the CP rail yards on Dewdney Avenue between Albert and Broad streets, which has long been predicted as the location of a new entertainment facility. However, the report also raised other potential spots, including the grounds of Evraz Place.

The report also discussed various stadium designs, including an open-air facility and a dome.

“They’re definitely throwing some different options out there than where we were a year ago,” said Hopson, who took a “quick glance” at the report before it was presented to council.

“We were involved up to our neck in the last one with the province and the city and that was clearly about building a domed facility, possibly with a retractable roof (a plan that was scrapped in 2011). The city has been more cautious in saying, ‘We’re going to look at what is doable, what’s affordable and more than one option.’ ’’

The city, the province and, potentially, private investors would likely foot much of the bill for the new facility. Hopson said the Roughriders also would probably contribute in some way, but he noted that wouldn’t give the team any say in the final choice of design or location.

“We’re not going to say we can drive the bus because we’re not the main funder,” he said.

The organization has been patiently waiting as the revitalization plan has been examined by the city, but that wasn’t always the case.

Hopson admitted there was some impatience on the Roughriders’ part as the plans to replace Mosaic Stadium bogged down — until the team looked at the magnitude of the project and what it could do for the city.

“What we’re doing right now has really helped us (with that sentiment),” said Hopson, referring to a $14-million facelift at Mosaic Stadium that the Roughriders have undertaken in preparation for playing host to the 2013 Grey Cup.

“We know that a new stadium is at least four years away and we’ve got a plan to get us through Grey Cup and a plan to get us to 2016 — the temporary seats, the suites, the new video boards.

“All of those things have got that sense of urgency (about a new stadium) ratcheted down a bit because now we know we’re fine for Grey Cup next year.”

Through the Grey Cup Legacy Project, the Roughriders are adding about 7,000 individual seats and 27 corporate suites in the end zones and erecting new digital video boards.

The second phase of the project involves the addition of another level of temporary seats that would bring Mosaic Stadium’s seating capacity for the Grey Cup to approximately 50,000. Those seats subsequently will be donated to interested communities in the province.

Hopson said crews have put up the steel beams for the video board in the northeast corner of the stadium and were working Monday on preparing to install the board on the west-side grandstand.

The installation of seats could begin in mid-May.

“Over the next month, there will be a tremendous amount of activity there and it’ll really take shape,” said Hopson, who has been told the seating and video boards will be ready for the Roughriders’ home pre-season game June 22 against the Calgary Stampeders.


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## isaidso

vitaming said:


> And the CFL is as minor league as it gets. Where American uni rejects go to earn a cheque.


Perhaps you should have a little more respect for this country's culture. The CFL is our national football league and the only league of consequence based in Canada. It might not be as glamourous as your country's league, but so what?

Every league on the planet looks minor league compared to the NFL, but to label the CFL 'as minor league as it gets' is way off the mark. It's many notches above the NCAA and arguably more major league than MLS. This is football's 2nd best league. There are about 5-6 soccer leagues better than MLS.

I just saw your apology, but please be a little more respectful. The Argonauts and Tiger Cats are the 2 oldest professional sports franchises in north America and the CFL is a much loved institution in most places in this country.


----------



## isaidso

Nate said:


> I'm really sick of fellow Canadians ragging on the CFL.


I just assumed he was American.


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## seohlhdde

*Canadian pride in my BLOOD*


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## elly63

delete


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## isaidso

The redevelopment of Lansdowne is hinging on a appeals decision that's coming out soon. Does anyone remember the date? I have to say that I find the park a better design that the stadium, but after so many years of no football in Ottawa I'll take it.


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## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> Every league on the planet looks minor league compared to the NFL, but to label the CFL 'as minor league as it gets' is way off the mark. It's many notches above the NCAA and arguably more major league than MLS. This is football's 2nd best league. There are about 5-6 soccer leagues better than MLS.


Hell, almost half the league are American-born players who beasted in college, many of which at the I-A/FBS level. Canadians like Andre Durie, Jesse Lumsden and Jamall Lee could've been stars in the NFL if given a fair shake (or, in the case of the former two, weren't injured all the time).


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## koolio

I remember a few years ago when the Argos had two Heisman winners as the second and third string QBs. Yes, there is a massive gap between the NFL and CFL but the gap between CFL and NCAA is much larger.... and understandably so. You can't compare a bunch of kids with full grown adults.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> The redevelopment of Lansdowne is hinging on a appeals decision that's coming out soon. Does anyone remember the date?


Look up. Waaaaaaaaay up...and I'll call Rusty.


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## isaidso

You mean to Jesus?



KingmanIII said:


> Hell, almost half the league are American-born players who beasted in college, many of which at the I-A/FBS level. Canadians like Andre Durie, Jesse Lumsden and Jamall Lee could've been stars in the NFL if given a fair shake (or, in the case of the former two, weren't injured all the time).


Quite right. I bet the league is closer to two-thirds US players from the NCAA system. The idea that CFL players aren't very good is crazy. Their rosters are stacked with people who've lead their teams to Bowl wins or Vanier Cups.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> You mean to Jesus?


No, to post #2423


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## elly63

The definitive article on the CFL re: NCAA
All-American CFL QB busts


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## isaidso

Ahhh, post #2423 got lost on the last page. The Lansdowne news is such a relief; it felt like the squabbling would go on for ever. Summer of 2015 may be a tight time line for the whole project, but surely they could start with the stadium and have Ottawa back in the CFL for 2014?

Btw, good article on US quarterbacks coming to the CFL. I've book marked it for future reference. Thanks for the link.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> Btw, good article on US quarterbacks coming to the CFL. I've book marked it for future reference. Thanks for the link.


I got into a flame war with some idiot blogging for the Chicago Bears who persisted in denigrating the CFL because he thought it was funny. That was the time of the Andy Fantuz tryout. The article was the coup de grace to make the guy look like a total idiot.

Also interesting was an interview done with Montreal GM Jim Popp (whom the blogging idiot never heard of and called drunk and stupid) He stated something along the lines of the CFL looking for the NFL player going into third year who likely won't qualify for his pension. The NFL however wants a younger player (from the CFL) they can mould.

It was further humiliating to the blog clown when Jim Popp's name surfaced as a candidate for the Indianapolis GMs position after I had said that he would likely end up in the NFL in a few years.


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## isaidso

NFL'ers (Canadian and American) tend to be the most condescending sports people I've ever come across. There are some in my league and come across others all the time. 90% of the time, they've never actually been to a CFL game or watched one on television, and are stunned when I tell them that the Grey Cup is 5 decades older than the Super Bowl. 

A friend of mine (and sports fanatic) didn't even realize that Canadian football was the standard here nationally. He just assumed it was only the CFL that played 3 down football, and that high schools and universities all played US football. The level of ignorance is astounding. 

I book marked the article because I know it will come in handy.


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## Calvin W

I don't have the link, But the city of Regina today announced they will be chasing a new outdoor stadium to be built at Evarz Place (fairgrounds), instead of a new domed stadium on the edge of the downtown core.


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## isaidso

You're from Saskatchewan, right? Is Evarz Place as close to downtown as Mosaic?


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## Lord David

Calvin W said:


> I don't have the link, But the city of Regina today announced they will be chasing a new outdoor stadium to be built at Evarz Place (fairgrounds), instead of a new domed stadium on the edge of the downtown core.


What they can do is simple. You build an outdoor stadium that has the provisions to expand (obviously for Grey Cup and other major sporting events), whilst designed as such to allow for a retractable roof to be installed in the future (Perhaps something similar to Parken Stadium in Copenhagen, Denmark).


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## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> You're from Saskatchewan, right? Is Evarz Place as close to downtown as Mosaic?


Originally from the province. The new stadium would be a bit further out from the downtown. Right now Taylor Field would be halfway between downtown and the exhibition grounds.


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## Lord David

^^ You build the new stadium on the fairgrounds, perhaps a new arena there too (in the future) and have the old stadium site converted to become an extension of whatever fairgrounds is left.


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## koolio

I always thought that their plans for a retractable roof stadium were a bit too ambitious. They should pursue a project that is on par with the new Winnipeg stadium.


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## Lord David

Who said anything about too ambitious? You follow my idea of a stadium designed to support such a retractable roof in the future (you have either no roof or conventional roofing instead), then when you can afford it, you propose such a roof to be built in place.


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## isaidso

Open air would indicate a scaled down project, but it's a bit too early to be drawing any conclusions. It may end up being on the lines of Investor Field, but likely larger. Investor Field is 33,500 expandable to 40,000. Regina's stadium would likely be 38,000 expandable to 50,000.


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## Lord David

^^ Anyone agree to my 2 phase plan? Opened air then converted to retractable roof when you can afford it?


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## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> ^^ You build the new stadium on the fairgrounds, perhaps a new arena there too (in the future) and have the old stadium site converted to become an extension of whatever fairgrounds is left.


The old stadium site will be turned in to residential. It would be the best fit for the neighbourhood.

As for a new arena, not in the next decade at least. The present arena may be renovated, but as for a new arena, don't hold your breath.

If you have ever been to Regina, you would soon realize expanding the exhibition grounds on to the old site would not be a good move.


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## koolio

I don't see the net benefit in going with a retractable roof at any point in time. Their fans prefer the open air atmosphere. A lot of stadiums talk about the retractable roof giving them the ability to host various big events during the off-season but there has been more and more evidence that those stadiums usually do not host enough events to justify the additional costs. Regina has a fairly big indoor arena as it is that allows them to host most large events ... that should be sufficient. If they have a roof like Winnipeg that provides coverage to most of the seats, that should be fine in my opinion.


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## Calvin W

koolio said:


> I don't see the net benefit in going with a retractable roof at any point in time. Their fans prefer the open air atmosphere. A lot of stadiums talk about the retractable roof giving them the ability to host various big events during the off-season but there has been more and more evidence that those stadiums usually do not host enough events to justify the additional costs. Regina has a fairly big indoor arena as it is that allows them to host most large events ... that should be sufficient. If they have a roof like Winnipeg that provides coverage to most of the seats, that should be fine in my opinion.


Regina's arena currently holds around 7,000 for hockey. Not big by Canadian standards. The city has a large indoor exhibition center attached to the arena for trade shows and such.

As for retractable roof, I would not support my taxes going towards building and maintaining it. I own property in the province and don't want provincial money spent on a roof.


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## elly63

City eyes open-air stadium at Evraz Place
Terrence McEachern, Leader-Post May 4, 2012

REGINA — Mayor Pat Fiacco’s vision of a new Regina stadium and a revitalizalized inner-city has received a facelift.

On Friday, Brent Sjoberg, deputy city manager of corporate services and chief financial officer, unveiled details of the revised $1-billion Regina Revitalization Initiative that includes an open-air stadium, 700 affordable housing units and retail and commercial development.

Under a funding proposal sent to the provincial government on April 24, the city anticipates the total public contribution would be $348.2 million. This would involve $88.3 million from the city, $230 million from the province and $30 million from the federal government.

“We believe we came up with a financially feasible and responsible plan that supports additional density and investment in the core of the city,” said Sjoberg. “We also believe it will deliver public investments that provide a long-term benefit for the community.”

*The 33,000-seat stadium would be built on a city-owned area of land at Evraz Place just west of Elphinstone Street across from the Sportplex. The stadium would be owned by the city and operated by Evraz Place.
*
*The open-air stadium project is expected to cost taxpayers $278.2 million. Construction would cost $250 million with $200 million from the provincial government and $50 million from the city*. For environmental and site-related costs, the city would contribute an additional $10.6 million, the province $8.8 million and the federal government $8.8 million.

Earlier in the week, Sjoberg estimated that an open-air stadium would cost between $200-$250 million whereas a domed or closed-roof stadium would cost $350-$380 million and a retractable roof stadium about $450 million.

Besides the $278.2-million stadium project, an additional $45.7 million will be spent developing the CP rail yard south of Dewdney Avenue and another $24.4 million to tear down Mosaic Stadium and redevelop the site.

At the project’s launch on April 19, 2011, a video showed a closed-roof stadium on 33 acres of CP rail land along with 20 acres of land where Mosaic Stadium now sits. Both areas would have had a mixture of residential units with retail and commercial property on the CP land.

Now the plan has the city purchasing only 17.5 acres of the CP land (with an estimated value of $7.3 million) and the stadium relocated to Evraz Place. The city still needs to finalize the CP land purchase deal, said Sjoberg.

The $45.7 million to develop the CP land would comprise of $18.1 million from the city (including the $7.3 million estimated land value), $13.8 million from the province and $13.8 million from the federal government. In addition to the retail, residential and commercial development, a new pedestrian bridge connecting downtown to the Warehouse District would be constructed.

The city anticipates an investment of $550-$650 million from the private sector for the overall project.

*Construction on the stadium is expected to begin in the fall of 2013 and completed by 2016*. Sjoberg said the private sector would front half the costs under a proposed P3 funding arrangement and be repaid over 30 years. The overall revitalization project is expected to take 10-15 years to complete.

To help with debt repayment, the city suggests that $3.9 million to $6.1 million in annual funding could be raised through an increased amusement tax, facility fee and new hotel tax as well as money saved from maintaining Mosaic Stadium. An annual property tax increase of one per cent for up to four years could be expected.

Sjoberg said the proposal will be sent to the city’s executive committee on Wednesday and then to city council for approval in June. Sjoberg has asked the province to respond to the city’s funding request by May 31.

Glen Davies, city manager, also attended Friday’s unveiling. He told reporters this proposal represents a “generational opportunity to revitalize the heart of Regina” in terms of community benefit, sustainable development and better use of the city’s land and infrastructure.

Gerry Ritz, federal agriculture minister and regional minister for Saskatchewan, reaffirmed the federal government’s position against funding stadiums in a press release on Friday.

“Canadians gave us a mandate to get back to balanced budgets and continue to focus on jobs and the economy. Our most recent election platform stated that we will not fund professional sports facilities. We will continue to apply this policy uniformly across the country.”

Details of the Regina Revitalization Initiative announced May 4, 2012:

* $348.3 million public funding proposal.
* Overall revitalization cost estimate, including private investment: $1 billion.
** $278.2 million, 33,000 seat open-air stadium project at Evraz Place*.
* $45.7 million for site development of 17.5-acre CP rail land.
* $24.4 million Mosaic Stadium demolition plus site redevelopment.
* Includes 700 affordable housing units, commercial and retail development


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## isaidso

Smaller than I expected. I would have thought around 38,000. Mosaic is expanding to 38,000 this year and 50,000 for 2013 in preparation for the Grey Cup. These next 2 seasons will be a good gauge of fan support as Mosaic at 30,000 was always sold out. If they sell out at 38,000 perhaps they'll build more capacity into the new stadium.


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## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> Smaller than I expected. I would have thought around 38,000. Mosaic is expanding to 38,000 this year and 50,000 for 2013 in preparation for the Grey Cup. These next 2 seasons will be a good gauge of fan support as Mosaic at 30,000 was always sold out. If they sell out at 38,000 perhaps they'll build more capacity into the new stadium.


35,000 would be ideal I think. Other than big marquee games, that should be enough. Saying that, certain teams could easily draw 40,000+

I have been to the Labour Game twice and cramming 30,000+ in was always a blast. Maybe some temporary stands nearby could be arranged for games? Time will tell.


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## Calvin W

Hahaha. A dome in Regina is dead.....

Unless some mystery donor hands over $500 million to pay for it.


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## Nate

Calvin W said:


> Hahaha. A dome in Regina is dead.....
> 
> Unless some mystery donor hands over $500 million to pay for it.


I don't think it's going to happen either, but $500 mill is a bit of an exaggeration. If the province and city are in for $278 for the open air as planned, to get a dome, you are left with about another 200-300 mill (keep in mind the retractable option was priced at $430 mill 3 years ago). If you force the Riders to be in for $100 mill (the bombers are in for $80 mill in their new stadium), then you are left with $100-200 mill to either raise through community endeavours/get through private sources. I'm just spitballing with numbers, but $500 mill is a HUGE hyperbole. 

You then have to try to work out the operation costs of course, but that's a whole different story 

In any case, I'm sure things will start to clear in the coming months.


----------



## Calvin W

Nate said:


> I don't think it's going to happen either, but $500 mill is a bit of an exaggeration. If the province and city are in for $278 for the open air as planned, to get a dome, you are left with about another 200-300 mill (keep in mind the retractable option was priced at $430 mill 3 years ago). If you force the Riders to be in for $100 mill (the bombers are in for $80 mill in their new stadium), then you are left with $100-200 mill to either raise through community endeavours/get through private sources. I'm just spitballing with numbers, but $500 mill is a HUGE hyperbole.
> 
> You then have to try to work out the operation costs of course, but that's a whole different story
> 
> In any case, I'm sure things will start to clear in the coming months.


Well you honestly think $500 million in total will get a domed stadium these days? Maybe a bare bones version along the lines of the Fargo Dome....

To be more realistic, a stadium in Regina will not be started for at least another 4 to 5 years from now. That will drive the cost up quite a bit.

If a dome is built, I'm locking my estimate in at $750 million.


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## elly63

Have to agree with Nate, you're blowing this way out of proportion. 

The model for the domed Regina stadium (the Stockholmsarenan) will cost 2.7 billion Swedish krona including land appropriation and a new parking garage under the stadium. That translates to 386.5 billion Canadian dollars. If planning in Regina can be done quickly enough and the will is there it can be done. 

What I'm wondering is what is costing the open air Regina stadium 80-100 million more than the fantastic new semi-covered stadium in Winnipeg.


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## elly63

The funny thing about the Regina situation is that the will seems to be there to get a dome. Most places oppose the stadium but it seems the people opposed to the open air concept in Regina are not against building the stadium, but that it is not covered.

Another strange thing, in the recommendation report from a few years ago they had an interesting statement that a retractable roof would actually be cheaper to build than a dome citing the Cardinal's University of Phoenix Stadium as an example. Why or how, I do not know.

As a comparison, that stadium cost $455 million ($525 million in 2012 dollars) with twice the capacity of Regina's proposed stadium and a rolling turf structure to boot. It was was named by Business Week as one of the 10 “most impressive” sports facilities on the globe. Hardly bare bones.


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## Nate

Construction costs are a bit higher in Regina than Winnipeg, and I think the planned capacity might be a bit larger than Winnipeg's, with them also aimin a little higher on terms of quality. I could be wrong though.


In any case, I highly doubt a retractable stadium would by $750 mill. Of that's the case, the open air is going to be at least $400 mill, and that's definitely not true. Also, the stadium isn't 4-5 years from starting, it will be starting next year. I do actually believe what the city is saying in that regard.


----------



## elly63

Nate said:


> I think the planned capacity might be a bit larger than Winnipeg's
> 
> Also, the stadium isn't 4-5 years from starting, it will be starting next year. I do actually believe what the city is saying in that regard.


Actually the proposed Evraz Place stadium has 500 less seats (33,000/$278.2 million) than Winnipeg (33,500/$190 million).

I also tend to believe the starting date (expected to begin in the fall of 2013 and completed by 2016) but doesn't that also preclude they have a pretty good idea of the design. 

I have no idea how long it takes to design a stadium, especially as complicated as one with a retractable roof.


----------



## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> The funny thing about the Regina situation is that the will seems to be there to get a dome. Most places oppose the stadium but it seems the people opposed to the open air concept in Regina are not against building the stadium, but that it is not covered.
> 
> Another strange thing, in the recommendation report from a few years ago they had an interesting statement that a retractable roof would actually be cheaper to build than a dome citing the Cardinal's University of Phoenix Stadium as an example. Why or how, I do not know.
> 
> As a comparison, that stadium cost $455 million ($525 million in 2012 dollars) with twice the capacity of Regina's proposed stadium and a rolling turf structure to boot. It was was named by Business Week as one of the 10 “most impressive” sports facilities on the globe. Hardly bare bones.


Well one MAJOR difference is Regina is not Phoenix. Ever hear of snow? white fluffy stuff that weighs a ton..... Any dome in Regina would be a heck of a lot stronger than domes in the southern USA.

No stadium will be started for at least 5 years. You can bet on that.

Who's going to pay for it Nate? The city going to write that big fat check now to start design and engineering work? Kind of hard to do that when the city doesn't even have a location yet. 

Won't even have a location by the end of the year let alone a set of working drawings....


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> Ever hear of snow? white fluffy stuff that weighs a ton..... Any dome in Regina would be a heck of a lot stronger than domes in the southern USA.


Ever heard of the Stockholmsarenan? I understand it has snowed in Sweden a few times.



Calvin W said:


> No stadium will be started for at least 5 years. You can bet on that.


Construction on the stadium is expected to begin in the fall of 2013 and completed by 2016.



Calvin W said:


> Who's going to pay for it Nate? The city going to write that big fat check now to start design and engineering work? Kind of hard to do that when the city doesn't even have a location yet.


The open-air stadium project is expected to cost taxpayers $278.2 million. Construction would cost $250 million with $200 million from the provincial government and $50 million from the city. For environmental and site-related costs, the city would contribute an additional $10.6 million, the province $8.8 million and the federal government $8.8 million.



Calvin W said:


> Won't even have a location by the end of the year let alone a set of working drawings....


The 33,000-seat stadium would be built on a city-owned area of land at Evraz Place just west of Elphinstone Street across from the Sportplex. The stadium would be owned by the city and operated by Evraz Place.

Are you just trolling having done no research or reading? Do you have any information to add to this thread at all. Gee whiz!

The information above is of course for the open air stadium, location and timeline would still apply for the covered stadium just the cost would be higher.

You've added nothing to this argument aside from trolling comments. You've been given examples and information and you have added nothing concrete in return. And yes we know they have to come up with more money for the roof. That's the sticking point. But the new stadium is going ahead (roof or not)


----------



## Welkin

elly63 said:


> Are you just* trolling* having done no research or reading? Do you have any information to add to this thread at all. Gee whiz!
> 
> The information above is of course for the open air stadium, location and timeline would still apply for the covered stadium just the cost would be higher.
> 
> You've added nothing to this argument aside from *trolling comments*. You've been given examples and information and you have added nothing concrete in return. And yes we know they have to come up with more money for the roof. That's the sticking point. But the new stadium is going ahead (roof or not)


I do not think that Calvin W is trolling. He is just stating some obvious problems with Regina taking another look at the dome. 1. They have a location for the football only stadium (in a not very nice part of town) but no one would want to put a multipurpose entertainment facility in that location. The previous site on the CP lands now is only half the size they previously expected. 2. Construction of a outdoor stadium on city owned land has a shot at starting by the end 2013 (we haven't even seen renderings yet) but I doubt if all the necessities for a dome stadium could be ready by then. 3. Construction costs in Regina are among the highest in Canada and North America. There are no cheap Mexican laborers to build the dome like they had in Phoenix. I don't know if the new dome will cost $750 million, but considering Vancouver spent over $500 million just renovating their facility, a final cost of $550-$600 million or higher would not be outrageous. 

Regardless I feel this this discussion is a moot point. The city of Regina will be struggling to raise its part of the outdoor stadium and has maxed out its borrowing limit. Unless someone donated the extra $300 million for a dome (which I doubt will happen since no one is making a major donation to the planned outdoor stadium) Regina just cannot raise the additional $300 million on its own. The only reason a dome was considered before was because the city of Regina really felt that the Federal government, private business, and the province would pay for 90% of the facility. That did not happen and is not going to happen. Lets face it, without $200 million from the province for the new stadium, even the outdoor stadium won't happen. On its own, Regina can barely afford even a proper renovation of Taylor/Mosaic.


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## elly63

Well if Calvin had made comments like you did I wouldn't have had a problem.

Do I think the dome is going to happen? No, for some of the same reasons you stated. But why are the PTB making specific comments about costs and time frames if they don't have something concrete (pardon the expression) in mind? Doesn't pass the sniff test if they weren't fairly advanced in planning for the open air stadium with a little more than a year and a half to go.


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## elly63

Might only seat three people but it's pretty cool - elly  

Tks to Stuart at Vs for headsup

 SAIT sports facilities are in great shape
Adam Bowen Score Editor November 24, 2011

Post-secondary athletic facilities are often some of the most in-demand and highly utilized services a school has to offer, and SAIT’s are no different.

How many schools can say they have a FIFA level two certified soccer field? SAIT can.











The Cohos Common field could be considered the jewel of the SAIT athletic facilities crown. The field, which opened in 2010, now provides the Trojans with a FIFA caliber soccer pitch.

“What we have is a FIFA level two playing surface that is state of the art, in terms of the quality of the synthetic turf that it’s on,” said SAIT athletics and recreation manager Budd Brazier.

Not only does the pitch provide less load bearing on the parking garage held underneath, it also allows SAIT to potentially host national level events.

“The playing surface as you see today is just phenomenal,” said Brazier.

...


SAIT makes a pitch for soccer venue notoriety

Friday, September 10, 2010, Calgary, AB – The Honourable Gary Lunn, Canada’s Minister of State for Sport, today helped SAIT Polytechnic unveil a soccer pitch that is being hailed as one of the best in Alberta.

SAIT’s redesigned *Cohos Commons pitch is perched atop the institution’s new and innovative underground parking garage* – and features a breathtaking view of Calgary’s downtown skyline. The playing surface is made of synthetic grass-like fibres with a rubber pellet and sand infill system. With its padded waterproof membrane the surface is virtually unaffected by inclement weather and is believed to minimize player injuries.

Minister Lunn and SAIT President and CEO Irene Lewis officially opened the pitch at a ceremony preceding an Alberta Colleges Athletic Association (ACAC) match between the SAIT Trojans and the Lethbridge College Kodiaks.

“As a SAIT alumnus, I am proud to be here today to celebrate the opening of the Cohos Commons soccer pitch,” said Minister Lunn. “Participating in sport – whether for recreation or for competition – builds strong individuals and strong communities. I applaud the school for creating this beautiful venue, which will benefit athletes for years to come. And, I’d like to wish the Trojans all the very best for the upcoming season.”

Lewis said the redesigned Cohos Commons is a reflection of the institution’s value of sport.

“SAIT believes sport is a powerful contributor to social and personal development. It’s an important contributor to the fabric of society, to culture, education, economic development and prosperity. The value we place on it at SAIT is reflected in this and other investments we have made recently to our sports facilities.”

According to Grant Stevens, head coach of the Trojan men’s and women’s soccer teams, the high-quality field will attract athletes serious about soccer.

“SAIT is the only post-secondary in Alberta that has an artificial turf field specifically for soccer use,” said Stevens. “It’s a fantastic pitch to play on.”

The original Cohos Commons was named after Martin Cohos, renowned architect, current volunteer and long-time friend of SAIT. It opened in 2001.


----------



## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> Well if Calvin had made comments like you did I wouldn't have had a problem.
> 
> Do I think the dome is going to happen? No, for some of the same reasons you stated. But why are the PTB making specific comments about costs and time frames if they don't have something concrete (pardon the expression) in mind? Doesn't pass the sniff test if they weren't fairly advanced in planning for the open air stadium with a little more than a year and a half to go.


Blah, 

Just a few months ago all the eggs were in a domed stadium on CP land near the downtown.

Poof, now magically they will be starting an open air stadium on the exhibition grounds by next year. :cheers:

No SOLID data has been made public, so we can all wish and hope for whatever you want.

Me I'm sticking by my estimates of $750 million if it is a domed multi purpose stadium built on CP lands near the downtown....

If it is an open air stadium on the fair grounds, it will be a whole new ball game.... Still going to say $300 million + for a stadium of 35,000 seats.


elly good on you for believing the political speak you hear in Regina. Been listening to the speak for decades and still no new stadium, domed or open air... 5 years minimum before they start construction. That's my estimate and I'll stick to it until they actually put a shovel in the ground and start...


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> Just a few months ago all the eggs were in a domed stadium on CP land near the downtown. Poof, now magically they will be starting an open air stadium on the exhibition grounds by next year.
> 
> Me I'm sticking by my estimates of $750 million if it is a domed multi purpose stadium built on CP lands near the downtown....
> 
> If it is an open air stadium on the fair grounds, it will be a whole new ball game.... Still going to say $300 million + for a stadium of 35,000 seats.
> 
> elly good on you for believing the political speak you hear in Regina. Been listening to the speak for decades and still no new stadium, domed or open air... 5 years minimum before they start construction. That's my estimate and I'll stick to it until they actually put a shovel in the ground and start...


I try to use common sense when reasoning what people say. In other words, actually committing and saying something (the politicians) is far more dangerous than saying nothing. Soooo why would they say it, if it wasn't their intention.

What poof? They found out the CP Lands weren't viable, the same way Hamilton found out later they couldn't refurbish one stand because they couldn't use seat back chairs, so they decided to start over.

Why are you saying it will cost $750 million to build a domed stadium and will not start for five years. I thought you said it was dead (remember Hahaha. A dome in Regina is dead.....). Which is it?

Wow, that's a big stretch of a guess for the open air stadium, it's practically what they've already said, except you can't even get the number of the seats right. Another thing I'd like to know is why you think the Regina stadium will cost $110 million more than the similar sized Winnipeg stadium that is partially covered. Surely labour costs one province over aren't that much cheaper. Are the Regina seats going to be gold plated?

How about using some real world examples to back your opinion. Also why do you keep ignoring the example of the Stockholmsarenan? 

This thread is starting to look like the useless stadium thread at riderfans.com. Six hundred pages of calvin-like opinion.


----------



## nomarandlee

isaidso said:


> ^^ I don't follow hockey or have an interest in Stanley Cups, but it's undeniable that this part of Canada is shockingly under-served by the NHL. They've had so much US tunnel vision over the last 3 decades that they've allowed other sports to chip away at hockey's dominant position in southern Ontario. Hockey is still #1 by a long shot, but it's about time they started to buttress 'fortress hockey' with a few more teams.
> ........The Golden Horseshoe is rapidly growing through immigration.


Nonsense. Fans from the Toronto metro will not stop appreciating hockey if more NHL teams don't arrive. That is like saying New York City needs another 2 baseball teams to keep baseball alive even when many New Yorkers have no issue rooting for the Yankees. 


> The NHL risks permanently losing these newcomers to other sports because it refuses to properly serve this market. We already have an entire generation who've opted for other sports partially because of NHL neglect.


Blame immigration and a general appreciation for athletic diversity. Baseball was by far the undisputed king in the US fifty years ago. It wasn't baseball that failed the American public since then but a general up tick in the appreciation for other athletic sports which is how it should be. No sport is worthy of being the be all end all of a nations athletic culture.


> If London can have 5 Premier League soccer teams, and Melbourne 11 Aussie Rules football teams, the Golden Horseshoe could surely support 4 NHL teams.


Nonsense. You split the London market 5 different ways and it averages to approximately 2 million per fan base per club. This is a fan pool VERY competitive compared to the rest of the other clubs playing in that league. Splitting up the Toronto market four different ways (especially with newborn teams without a history of support that has previously belong to the Leafs) averages out to about 1.5 million per club if you had four teams around Toronto. In the NHL this would be qualified amongst the very smallest markets. A market size that is arguably to small to compete on a yearly basis with the bigger monopolized markets. 

And all for what? To further dilute the talent pool of the NHL and to make it more improbable for other fans teams to win a Stanley Cup because the cluster of teams in the NHL perpetually grows? If anything the NHL needs LESS teams not more in order to really drive up the probability that a team will mathematical win a championship and also so the rosters will be more deep and quality. In fact ideally I would advise this for all the North American sports leagues other then perhaps the NFL.


----------



## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> I try to use common sense when reasoning what people say. In other words, actually committing and saying something (the politicians) is far more dangerous than saying nothing. Soooo why would they say it, if it wasn't their intention.
> 
> What poof? They found out the CP Lands weren't viable, the same way Hamilton found out later they couldn't refurbish one stand because they couldn't use seat back chairs, so they decided to start over.
> 
> Why are you saying it will cost $750 million to build a domed stadium and will not start for five years. I thought you said it was dead (remember Hahaha. A dome in Regina is dead.....). Which is it?
> 
> Wow, that's a big stretch of a guess for the open air stadium, it's practically what they've already said, except you can't even get the number of the seats right. Another thing I'd like to know is why you think the Regina stadium will cost $110 million more than the similar sized Winnipeg stadium that is partially covered. Surely labour costs one province over aren't that much cheaper. Are the Regina seats going to be gold plated?
> 
> How about using some real world examples to back your opinion. Also why do you keep ignoring the example of the Stockholmsarenan?
> 
> This thread is starting to look like the useless stadium thread at riderfans.com. Six hundred pages of calvin-like opinion.


Good on you mate. you bring no proof whatsoever to the game and shoot down everything I said. End of the day it will hurt you when I'm right.

You honestly think Winnipegs stadium when everything is said and done will be under $250 million? Wow good on you. You must believe in fairies as well mate.

A 30,000+ stadium under $300 million in Regina? I'll bet the farm on that....

If someone is stupid enough to build a dome in Regina, $750 million minimum...

I


----------



## JYDA

nomarandlee said:


> Nonsense. Fans from the Toronto metro will not stop appreciating hockey if more NHL teams don't arrive. That is like saying New York City needs another 2 baseball teams to keep baseball alive even when many New Yorkers have no issue rooting for the Yankees.
> 
> Blame immigration and a general appreciation for athletic diversity. Baseball was by far the undisputed king in the US fifty years ago. It wasn't baseball that failed the American public since then but a general up tick in the appreciation for other athletic sports which is how it should be. No sport is worthy of being the be all end all of a nations athletic culture.
> 
> Nonsense. You split the London market 5 different ways and it averages to approximately 2 million per fan base per club. This is a fan pool VERY competitive compared to the rest of the other clubs playing in that league. Splitting up the Toronto market four different ways (especially with newborn teams without a history of support that has previously belong to the Leafs) averages out to about 1.5 million per club if you had four teams around Toronto. In the NHL this would be qualified amongst the very smallest markets. A market size that is arguably to small to compete on a yearly basis with the bigger monopolized markets.
> 
> And all for what? To further dilute the talent pool of the NHL and to make it more improbable for other fans teams to win a Stanley Cup because the cluster of teams in the NHL perpetually grows? If anything the NHL needs LESS teams not more in order to really drive up the probability that a team will mathematical win a championship and also so the rosters will be more deep and quality. In fact ideally I would advise this for all the North American sports leagues other then perhaps the NFL.



I don't think you realize how far demand outstrips the supply of NHL hockey in Southern Ontario. There's nearly 9 million people within an hours drive with only one team. It is so out of whack that the notion of diminishing returns of a divided fanbase doesnn't hold. If Markham gets a team the season tickets and boxes will be sold out in minutes and the local television deal will be one of the most lucrative in the league. 

We already saw when Balsillie tried to steal the Predators and move them to hamilton he put the boxes and season tickets up for sale and sold out the deposits in a day.


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> Good on you mate. you bring no proof whatsoever to the game and shoot down everything I said. End of the day it will hurt you when I'm right.
> 
> You honestly think Winnipegs stadium when everything is said and done will be under $250 million? Wow good on you. You must believe in fairies as well mate.
> 
> A 30,000+ stadium under $300 million in Regina? I'll bet the farm on that....
> 
> If someone is stupid enough to build a dome in Regina, $750 million minimum...


Do you read any of the posted articles? I suppose it's a media conspiracy and they are reporting incorrect information and that only Calvin is privy to the real accounts. You offer no examples and just whine and moan and say things can't be done. Proof? Here's some.

BMO Field 20,000 seats (bare bones) $63 million
Winnipeg Stadium 33,500 seats (covered seating) - $190 million (still on budget) + 10 million the Bombers now want to pay for additional video signage
Ottawa Stadium 24,000 seats - $129.3 million
Hamilton Stadium 22,500 seats - $152.1 million

Seeing as you believe the new stadium will cost 300 million or 750 million or whatever other number your head makes up, how bout telling us what we get for the money. Same size as Winnipeg yet 100 million more and Winnipeg is covered. Where is your extra 100 million? I'm still trying to figure out where that extra 80+ million the Regina people are stating is going. Ten thousand more seats than Hamilton but twice the cost.

The model for the dome (the Stockholmsarenan) which you conveniently ignore (and has similar construction conditions) cost 386.5 million with a retractable roof and 30+ thousand seats. That's almost half the cost of what you're saying yet you refuse to acknowledge the fact.

You'll bet the farm on a 30,000 seat, 300 million dollar stadium. That's practically what the PTB are saying, why are you pretending it's something different. Do you have the ability to read?

Are you one of them bitter 'ol British dudes, mate? I don't mind being proven wrong just give me some facts not your opinion.


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## Welkin

elly63 said:


> Do you read any of the posted articles? I suppose it's a media conspiracy and they are reporting incorrect information and that only Calvin is privy to the real accounts. You offer no examples and just whine and moan and say things can't be done. Proof? Here's some.
> 
> BMO Field 20,000 seats (bare bones) $63 million
> Winnipeg Stadium 33,500 seats (covered seating) - $190 million (still on budget) + 10 million the Bombers now want to pay for additional video signage
> Ottawa Stadium 24,000 seats - $129.3 million
> Hamilton Stadium 22,500 seats - $152.1 million
> 
> Seeing as you believe the new stadium will cost 300 million or 750 million or whatever other number your head makes up, how bout telling us what we get for the money. Same size as Winnipeg yet 100 million more and Winnipeg is covered. Where is your extra 100 million? I'm still trying to figure out where that extra 80+ million the Regina people are stating is going. Ten thousand more seats than Hamilton but twice the cost.
> 
> The model for the dome (the Stockholmsarenan) which you conveniently ignore (and has similar construction conditions) cost 386.5 million with a retractable roof and 30+ thousand seats. That's almost half the cost of what you're saying yet you refuse to acknowledge the fact.
> 
> You'll bet the farm on a 30,000 seat, 300 million dollar stadium. That's practically what the PTB are saying, why are you pretending it's something different. Do you have the ability to read?
> 
> Are you one of them bitter 'ol British dudes, mate? I don't mind being proven wrong just give me some facts not your opinion.


I am not saying that this will be the exact price of a 35,000 seat domed stadium in Regina, but when you compare stadiums built in North America to other stadiums built in North America, the price comes out different than a North American vs. European ratio. The Minnesota Vikings are building a 65,000 seat stadium for $1.1 billion (throw in another $300-$400 million if you want a retractable roof with all the bells and whistles). On the price ration of $1.1 billion for 65,000 seats, a comparable 35,000 seat stadium in Regina would cost $592 million. Keep in mind, for some reason stadiums built in Canada tend to cost a lot more than stadiums built in the States. Very nice 30,000 seat outdoor stadiums built in the States for $70-$100 million (Univ. Akron, Tulane, North Texas) seem to cost $150-$180 million+ here in Canada. The Houston Dynamo just built a very nice, top of the line, 22,000 seat stadium for $95 million, but Hamilton's new 22,000 seat stadium is expected to cost $150 million. At Hamilton's ratio, Regina's 32,000 seat outdoor stadium should cost $220 million but they are estimating the cost to be $280 million+. Who knows what the final costs will actually be.


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## KingmanIII

Why don't more CFL clubs look into building something like some smaller-time college programs are here in the States?

Most of these stadiums cost no more (often much less) than $100 million. and are built for future expansion. Throw in a simple roof that covers the patrons and maybe make it an all-seater and you're looking at what, $150 mil, tops?

A few examples:

*AKRON, OH -- Infocision Stadium (2009)*
Akron Zips
30000
$62M










*DALLAS, TX -- Gerald J. Ford Stadium (2000)*
SMU Mustangs
32000, expandable to 40000 (south end zone)
$42M ($57M today)










*DENTON, TX -- Apogee Stadium (2011)*
UNT Mean Green
30850
$78M










*EAST HARTFORD, CT -- Rentschler Field (2003)*
UConn Huskies
40000
$91M ($115M today)










*LOUISVILLE, KY -- Papa John's Cardinal Stadium (1998)*
U of L Cardinals
42000 original
$63M ($89M today)










13,000-seat upper deck added in 2010 at a cost of $73M:


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## Lord David

^^ You got a couple of billion? 

But seriously, I'd expect by the time a 2026 bid comes along FIFA would totally be restructured, with Sepp Blatter out as the President. It would be a more robust organization by then, recovering much like the IOC recovering after the 2002 Salt Lake City bribe scandal.

The World Cup in Qatar will go ahead, but future bids will see no bribery at all. Hopefully, of course.


----------



## elly63

Lord David said:


> It might work, after all, Halifax can easily warrant a stadium from a bid.
> 
> Toronto will most likely build an 80,000+ stadium as a legacy, perhaps from having hosted the 2024 Olympics. This stadium should be designed for flexibility, in that they should not host the 2024 games, they could still potentially host in the future, if they choose to bid. They will host the final. Toronto will propose the Skydome as a backup option if the 80,000 seater stadium does not go ahead.
> 
> Montreal will therefore host the opening match at a refurbished Olympic Stadium. It's therefore possible to have both the opening match and final held at a venue known as Olympic Stadium.
> 
> A randomly selected city from the rest will host the FIFA congress, which would of course have the group drawing.
> 
> A good use of existing and new venues (particularly for Quebec City and Halifax). Others will use CFL stadiums in an expanded rate.
> 
> To help promote a nation-wide World Cup, training camps will be held in all host cities, some major cities, other Provincial capitals and the Territories as well (which could see legacy soccer fields there as a World Cup legacy). The idea is that all 32 competing teams have 1 host city each, which would house appropriate accommodation, training soccer fields and a public airport for ease of travel (with the backup option of a bus terminal).
> 
> It won't cost 10's of billions. After all, we attempted to bid for 2022 with far less pleasing stadiums and poorer general transport infrastructure in comparison to you guys. You just need to improve your VIA rail, make your international airports have regular flights to all host cities (which will count as a legacy) and make sure each host city has a convention center to house the media.
> 
> Of course, this bid will be futile if the US decides to bid again.


Lord David, you can't keep comparing Canada to Australia, they are two totally different cultures. You're always proposing these 80,000 seat stadiums, that might work in Australia but not here, there is no need.

Highly unlikely Toronto will be getting the Olympics any time soon and also highly unlikely Toronto would get an 80,000 seat stadium. Why? The present government has set a precedent for not funding facilities specifically for pro sports teams. To build a *permanent* 80,000 seat stadium that's only use post WC would be for an NFL franchise would cost nearer to one billion. Aside from the NFL Buffalo playing in Toronto failure, no federal government is going to want to be seen as a contributor to the downfall of the CFL.

The will to build a stadium in Halifax is not there presently.

As for having 32 teams in 32 different cities, ain't gonna happen, logistical nightmare and which one of those 32 teams do you stick in the 32nd largest city in Canada (Saguenay, Que) ,,,Cameroun?

Don't think you'll be seeing any upgrades to rail service either.

As for the Americans cherry picking the bid, London had everything for 2018...didn't happen.


----------



## elly63

Lord David said:


> But seriously, I'd expect by the time a 2026 bid comes along FIFA would totally be restructured, with Sepp Blatter out as the President. It would be a more robust organization by then, recovering much like the IOC recovering after the 2002 Salt Lake City bribe scandal.
> 
> The World Cup in Qatar will go ahead, but future bids will see no bribery at all. Hopefully, of course.


I doubt it, Platini is the heir apparent and he may be as bad as Septic Bladder. Platini is the guy who was against goal line technology. It's in now but Platini was probably outvoted. Don't think he's too progressive and now that he's learned from the best and been at the buffet with ol Septic, I ain't too confident about any moral improvements at FIFA. 

One of my favourite Septic Bladder quotes was about how women should wear tighter uniforms.


----------



## cormiermax

elly63 said:


> Baloney. It will happen if the political will is there. We are on the short list of countries that have hosted three Olympics.


The Olympics are nothing in terms of costs compared to what it would take for Canada to host the world cup. The nationwide infrastructure upgrades that would need to take place would be massive. I would be highly surprised if this gets approved by the feds, as much as I would liked it to be.


----------



## Lord David

elly63 said:


> Lord David, you can't keep comparing Canada to Australia, they are two totally different cultures. You're always proposing these 80,000 seat stadiums, that might work in Australia but not here, there is no need.
> 
> Highly unlikely Toronto will be getting the Olympics any time soon and also highly unlikely Toronto would get an 80,000 seat stadium. Why? The present government has set a precedent for not funding facilities specifically for pro sports teams. To build a *permanent* 80,000 seat stadium that's only use post WC would be for an NFL franchise would cost nearer to one billion. Aside from the NFL Buffalo playing in Toronto failure, no federal government is going to want to be seen as a contributor to the downfall of the CFL.
> 
> The will to build a stadium in Halifax is not there presently.
> 
> As for having 32 teams in 32 different cities, ain't gonna happen, logistical nightmare and which one of those 32 teams do you stick in the 32nd largest city in Canada (Saguenay, Que) ,,,Cameroun?
> 
> Don't think you'll be seeing any upgrades to rail service either.
> 
> As for the Americans cherry picking the bid, London had everything for 2018...didn't happen.



Always proposing 80,000 seater stadiums? Since when?

We have 2, 80,000 seater + venues in Melbourne and Sydney, yet even those strengths weren't good enough (not to mention that the MCG in Melbourne was less than ideal field wise).

An 80,000 seater venue is a must for the WC, otherwise, why even consider bidding? You will need to propose such a venue, or there's no point of even discussing this further. As for legacies, it might be downsized, but I can easily see it kept in such a state for major events. A future Olympics (if Toronto does not get the 2024 Olympics), perhaps a successful NFL team relocation (which would cement it's legacy) and perhaps a couple of Toronto Argonauts games (yes, I know that the venue is too big for such a team).

Ok, so there's no will to build a venue in Halifax (which is the main reason for it's elimination in Canada's upcoming Women's World Cup), but a greater event such as the World Cup could warrant such a venue.

Having 32 cities in their own city/town would serve as to promote the game throughout Canada (and include all Provinces playing a role in some part as well as the Territories).
They will stay in such cities for the lead up to their group rounds only. If the Territories are too harsh in weather for this time period, then they may be scrapped as host cities.

You can always stick nations in cities based on their population or FIFA ranking. Or just make it a random pull out of a hat. Remember, if 32 individual cities is too much, then cut it to 16 cities hosting 2 teams each, based in the Provinces only and not including the Territories.

Of course there will be upgrades to rail service. Your rail is far superior to ours (which was a main downfall to our bid), I'd expect more regular services, or even the proposed high speed rail (either underway or proposed) that has been around for several years (and ridiculed of course, on the likes of the Rick Mercer Report).

As for London (you mean England 2018), they lost to Russia not because of a technically superior Russian bid, but to the controversy of what people think is the same as how Qatar got the 2022 World Cup, bribery and a corrupt FIFA.


----------



## elly63

Lord David said:


> Of course there will be upgrades to rail service. Your rail is far superior to ours (which was a main downfall to our bid), I'd expect more regular services, or even the proposed high speed rail (either underway or proposed) that has been around for several years (and ridiculed of course, on the likes of the Rick Mercer Report).


You think they are going to prop up a rail service just for the WC and as a legacy. Hell we had a hard enough time with the Sea to Sky Highway for the Vancouver Games. For a country this size, rail travel is not a popular option to move people. Canada is not Europe, or Australia.


----------



## Lord David

cormiermax said:


> The Olympics are nothing in terms of costs compared to what it would take for Canada to host the world cup. The nationwide infrastructure upgrades that would need to take place would be massive. I would be highly surprised if this gets approved by the feds, as much as I would liked it to be.


Hey, Australia got the go ahead for our failed 2022 bid and we have/had far less than what you guys got in terms of everything! 

In the unlikely chance that we DID end up getting the WC, that would have been purely on sporting merit and luck alone. There was never any national rail (like in the US and Canada) or High Speed Rail between cities ever proposed (it was expected that our somewhat robust national flight services would have covered this).

It would have cost 2.3 billion to build and expand our proposed venues. Many of which have already been done so as part of AFL and/or NRL legacies (from our proposed venues, 3 existing, 1 minor upgrade, 5 major upgrade and 2 new stadiums).

Canada is pretty much the same. By the time the 2026 bid comes around you would have already have had many new and renovated venues, as well as venues under construction. 

You'd only really need to build 3 venues from scratch (Toronto, Quebec City and Halifax).

Calgary and Moncton would see major upgrades/expansion. Regina, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa will see temporary expansion to CFL capacities.

Montreal will see minor renovation only, with minimal expansion.

The only venues that I can see needing no renovation at all would be in Vancouver and Edmonton. With the possibility of Regina if their proposed stadium is kept at a 50,000 capacity (which the Roughriders can easily fill for CFL games).

So that's 2/3 existing, 5/4 minor upgrades, 2 major upgrades, 3 new stadiums. Pretty much the same as Australia, not to mention far suitable field dimensions and the ability to host without conflict of the CFL.


----------



## elly63

Lord David said:


> With the possibility of Regina if their proposed stadium is kept at a 50,000 capacity (which the Roughriders can easily fill for CFL games).


Where do you come up with this stuff? There's a big difference between 30 thousand and 50 thousand, especially in a limited population like Saskatchewan. And believe it or not, if you read the local op/eds not everybody loves the Riders. This is a team that not long ago had to have telethons to keep it alive and nearly went under. Has their been a culture shift to make them iconic and thus more popular, yes I think so, but it has it's limitations. Hell, even in Toronto with a 5-6 million population to draw from there are only 20,000 hard core MLS fans. Could they regularly sell out 50,000 at the RC...no.

Canada is not the sporting culture Australia is. Unless a private investor comes forward (read NFL in Toronto) you'll not see another stadium built in Canada with a *permanent* capacity over 35-40,000 seats.


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## Lord David

^^ Only The proposed Toronto stadium would be a permanent 80,000. The rest would be downsized post WC to their original capacities or CFL capacity.

Canada is not the sporting culture Australia is? Yes, in some respects, but you're pretty great in winter sports nowadays and don't forget where the likes of Ice Hockey and Basketball have their origins! If you lacked sporting culture, then why bid and host major sporting events like the Olympics, Pan American Games, Ice Hockey Championships or Women's World Cup?

Remember, this is 2026 we're talking about 14 years away. Such things can easily be justified by then, with a much bigger Canadian population than what you have now.

Oh and it's been stated before that any new Regina stadium would be at an initial 30,000, expandable to 50,000 for a Grey Cup. You just keep such expansions for the next CFL season after having hosted the Grey Cup (or that year's season) to see the attendance numbers.


----------



## elly63

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it and know we can do it if the political will is there. It is just going to be done within realistic reason. 

All the CFL stadiums will be used, they are all able to satisfy a 40,000 seat minimum. The new stadiums (Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa, Saskatchewan and possibly Calgary) have that mandated to suit Grey Cup hosting and have consulted with FIFA during the design process. 

Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton and Toronto will be able to host the higher profile teams. Montreal is a problem because although they could refit to get a near to 70,000 capacity present plans are to totally downsize and remodel to 35,000. The issue in Toronto would be if they had to build a new stadium. it would be a permanent 65000+ seats if the NFL was in the picture or 35000 plus temp seating.


----------



## elly63

Lord David said:


> If you lacked sporting culture, then why bid and host major sporting events like the Olympics, Pan American Games, Ice Hockey Championships or Women's World Cup?


Because big projects are what we do best. One offs. We have to leave a sustainable legacy, meaning no white elephants. We learned our lesson with the Big O and to a lesser extent the SkyDome. New facilities would have to have a need and there is no need for an 80000 seat permanent structure.

To tell the truth, even if, worst case scenario, the NFL came to T.O. I don't think it would be a long term sellout success. I honestly can't see permanent 80000 sellouts after a few years, maybe 60000 at the most. The entertainment market there is so varied and I think that time of *total* fawning over the NFL has passed, along with some of its primary boosters.

I reference the Jays who have had some lean years until recently after doing some phenomenal business in the 80s and 90s. The Raptors have made no imprint at all outside of Toronto and attendance of TFC is slipping as well. Toronto is first, last and always a hockey town. BTW that's hockey not ice hockey, is there any other kind?


----------



## elly63

What does 'roof-ready' mean?
Decoding stadium proposal
Terrence McEachern Leader-Post July 6, 2012

REGINA - The provincial government's funding proposal of up to $80 million for a "roof-ready" stadium does not require the City of Regina to build a roof, nor does it require the city to build the structural components for a roof.

On Thursday, Brent Sjoberg, deputy city manager of corporate services, chief financial officer and project lead for the $1-billion Regina Revitalization Initiative, said the province isn't requiring the city to construct the structural infrastructure.

That is because "that adds a fair bit of costs to the project for something that we would not necessarily know if it was going to happen," Sjoberg remarked.

Under the proposal, the city would only have to show that the stadium's design concept is capable of meeting the structural requirements to support a domed or a retractable roof.

Ken Cheveldayoff, the provincial cabinet minister responsible for the stadium file, explained the technical phrase used to describe a roof-ready stadium is one having "no impediment in the design of the open-air facility towards putting a roof on at some point in the future." He added, "hopefully a retractable roof."

Cheveldayoff also confirmed that the funding offer of 30 per cent of the stadium costs capped at $80 million doesn't mandate the city to build a roof.

"What it asks for is that it be roofready, that there be an opportunity to put a roof on in the future, but that has nothing to do with the costs of the roof and the decision of whether there will be a roof or not," he said.

In terms of additional costs associated with constructing the structural support for a roof, neither Cheveldayoff nor Sjoberg knew how much that would be, although Sjoberg said architects hired to design a roof-ready concept would also calculate those costs in case funding becomes was available for a roof.

In the meantime, Sjoberg said the plan would be to construct a spectator roof with the playing field exposed.

With respect to other roof-ready stadium projects, Sjoberg said the perception is that many of these don't end up with a roof because the preferred option was not to build one in the first place.

"What we had gathered over time is in many cases stadiums that actually put in the extra costs structurally when you build it to add a roof later. I don't believe any of them have actually added a roof later," he said.

On April 24, the city requested $230 million from the province for the inner-city revitalization project, which includes housing, commercial and retail development. Along with an anticipated $550-650 million from the private sector, the city would contribute $88.3 million and possibly $30 million from the federal government. Of this, $200 million from the province along with $50 million from the city would be spent on a 33,000 seat open-air stadium built at Evraz Place. An additional $28 million from the province, city and federal government would be used for site and environmental costs.

On June 28, the province came back with its funding decision, providing up to $80 million for a stadium and nothing for now for the revitalization component of the project.

Despite the financial shortfall, Sjoberg said the offer is "positive progress" because the city has a funding commitment from the province.

The city has responded to the offer with some questions of its own. Sjoberg suggested the final amount could change once negotiations, including the possibility of a loan from the province to help finance the stadium, are finalized.


----------



## Lord David

elly63 said:


> Because big projects are what we do best. One offs. We have to leave a sustainable legacy, meaning no white elephants. We learned our lesson with the Big O and to a lesser extent the SkyDome. New facilities would have to have a need and there is no need for an 80000 seat permanent structure.
> 
> To tell the truth, even if, worst case scenario, the NFL came to T.O. I don't think it would be a long term sellout success. I honestly can't see permanent 80000 sellouts after a few years, maybe 60000 at the most. The entertainment market there is so varied and I think that time of *total* fawning over the NFL has passed, along with some of its primary boosters.
> 
> I reference the Jays who have had some lean years until recently after doing some phenomenal business in the 80s and 90s. The Raptors have made no imprint at all outside of Toronto and attendance of TFC is slipping as well. Toronto is first, last and always a hockey town. BTW that's hockey not ice hockey, is there any other kind?


Field Hockey, without it there wouldn't even be your version of Hockey. Bandy could also be compared to Hockey as well.

At any rate, an 80,000 seater stadium must be built for a WC and it will. It might be designed to allow for a downsize, if it's foreseen as a potential white elephant.


----------



## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> Field Hockey, without it there wouldn't even be your version of Hockey. Bandy could also be compared to Hockey as well.
> 
> At any rate, an 80,000 seater stadium must be built for a WC and it will. It might be designed to allow for a downsize, if it's foreseen as a potential white elephant.


haha. Like he said is there any other kind? 

There is one football, CFL and there is one hockey, NHL:cheers:


----------



## vitaming

Lord David said:


> Field Hockey, without it there wouldn't even be your version of Hockey. Bandy could also be compared to Hockey as well.
> 
> At any rate, an 80,000 seater stadium must be built for a WC and it will. It might be designed to allow for a downsize, if it's foreseen as a potential white elephant.


Having a go at (ice) hockey of all things on a Canadian thread. That's a sure way to be ridiculed and ignored!


----------



## Lord David

^^ Hey, they're the ones being ignorant at the origins of their sport. Mind you, I did point out Ice Hockey as a key factor to the fact that Canada DOES have some sporting culture.


----------



## elly63

Lord David said:


> Hey, they're the ones being ignorant at the origins of their sport. Mind you, I did point out Ice Hockey as a key factor to the fact that Canada DOES have some sporting culture.


Yup, some guy in Australia lecturing on hockey. Da noive of da guy! 

Next you'll be telling us to build an 80000 seat ice (sic) hockey arena


----------



## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> ^^ Hey, they're the ones being ignorant at the origins of their sport. Mind you, I did point out Ice Hockey as a key factor to the fact that Canada DOES have some sporting culture.


Next thing you will tell us is Australia isn't the land of roo's and convicts? lol.

No one here is ignorant as to where hockey was invented mate. Come into a Canadian thread and dish hockey? Wow, you so smart....


----------



## IllumL8ker

cormiermax said:


> We are far too cheap a nation to ever host the world cup, it would be in the tens of billions and we seem to get skiddish at the one billion mark.


You should not be allows to watch sports even soccer for that matter for making comments like this.

CONCACAF is long due for a world cup and USA and Mexico already had one... I don't see them getting another one... I totally see Canada hosting a World Cup especially in 14 years!!! Think how much soccer would of grown in Canada by then with all this MLS action and other teams coming up in lower divisions. And its a long time before they even select it so we have some time to get our "stuff" together. I love soccer and would be fully behind a world cup bid for 2026... I actually see it happening.

And Olympics in 2024 for Toronto I see that as well. North America is due. And I don't see USA getting it as well or Mexico. We CAN do it. We just have to make sure the stupid people don't ruin it.

Remember if you are against this you should not even be allowed to watch sports... any sport for that matter.

As for making a large lasting stadium in Toronto... I see that as well... if you have been reading the buffalo bills boards everyone knows that Toronto is going to be getting the bills. They will change the name as well. They just want to wait until the owner Ralph Wilson dies then they will move. 60 to 65 percent of the fans come from southern ontario as well anyways thats one of the leading reasons behind it. If you are worried about it being used... It WILL be used. As for number of seats I don't think around the area of 75,000+ seats is irrational as well. Remember once Torontos major leagues start WINNING then you see more fans across the board. If NFL is there I see them selling out... and NFL is a league where everyone has their time with winning.

Don't forget we invented Gridiron football, hockey, and basketball... the first ever baseball game was played here. We are a sports nation. Probably the most sporty nation out there and our biggest city hasn't hosted an Olympics and we haven't hosted a world cup of soccer. Although we were a little late on the growth of soccer but it is catching up at a rapid rate. (Montreal Impact just signed Alessandro Nesta!!!) We also have a lot of hippies who might just ruin it for everyone. Actually a few hippies but they can brainwash others. HA!

If you have anything trolling or bad to say about my comments... beat it!!!. Don't watch sports and we will see how long you last.


----------



## IllumL8ker

Maybe that's just what Toronto needs is a boost like that. It worked for the Pro Teams of Montreal Calgary and Vancouver... and I see it happening for Toronto as well.

Imagine the Maple Leafs doing well... = Insanity... that's exactly what Toronto needs a boost like that.

Rant off.


----------



## eMKay

IllumL8ker said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> As for making a large lasting stadium in Toronto... I see that as well... if you have been reading the buffalo bills boards everyone knows that Toronto is going to be getting the bills. They will change the name as well. They just want to wait until the owner Ralph Wilson dies then they will move. 60 to 65 percent of the fans come from southern ontario as well anyways thats one of the leading reasons behind it. If you are worried about it being used... It WILL be used. As for number of seats I don't think around the area of 75,000+ seats is irrational as well. Remember once Torontos major leagues start WINNING then you see more fans across the board. If NFL is there I see them selling out... and NFL is a league where everyone has their time with winning.
> 
> Don't forget we invented Gridiron football, hockey, and basketball... the first ever baseball game was played here. We are a sports nation. Probably the most sporty nation out there and our biggest city hasn't hosted an Olympics and we haven't hosted a world cup of soccer. Although we were a little late on the growth of soccer but it is catching up at a rapid rate. (Montreal Impact just signed Alessandro Nesta!!!) We also have a lot of hippies who might just ruin it for everyone. Actually a few hippies but they can brainwash others. HA!


Basically every single thing in this section of this post is completely false. Except for Toronto not hosting the Olympics, that's obviously true, but the rest is bullshit. 

I don't even know where to start, lets see, first of all on the matter of the Bills moving to Toronto, *FALSE* there are two ownership groups poised to purchase the Bills when Mr. Wilson dies, both groups will be keeping them here (I cannot give details, I'm under a NDA)

60-65% of fans come from Southern Ontario? *FALSE* What bunghole did you pull that stat out of? It varies from 15% to 25%

You didn't invent basketball, pretty sure Springfield Massachusetts was part of the United States of America in 1891

You didn't invent football, as I'm also pretty sure Princeton and Rutgers were also part of the United States in the mid 18th century

The first baseball game was *NOT* played in Canada, only the first to be recorded, it had been played for decades before that in guess where...


----------



## Fozzy33

The deal makes us Winnipeggers look pretty bad. l'm happy for them and all. Plz do not get me wrong. It's just Winnipeg is a bigger city then them and yet we just can not put a first class stadium proposel together like Regina. The differnce as we all know. Regina's stadium will cost $278million compare to ours at say $200 million. 

l say if us Winnipeggers spent another $100 million on it. We would have a covered roof over it and the stadium would hold about 40+ thousand ppl.


----------



## Lord David

eMKay said:


> You didn't invent basketball, pretty sure Springfield Massachusetts was part of the United States of America in 1891



It was a Canadian who invented basketball. Doesn't matter where the first game was played.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith


----------



## elly63

eMKay said:


> You didn't invent football, as I'm also pretty sure Princeton and Rutgers were also part of the United States in the mid 18th century


While I agree that much of the initial post was BS (and I refuted the 65% fan statement) modern football can be partly traced to Canada. I believe the form of football that Princeton and Rutgers played was akin to association football (soccer).

From wikipedia

Modern American football grew out of a match between McGill University of Montreal, and Harvard University in 1874. 

At the time, Harvard students are reported to have played the Boston Game, a running code, rather than the FA-based kicking games favoured by U.S. universities. 

This made it easy for Harvard to adapt to the rugby-based game played by McGill and the two teams alternated between their respective sets of rules. Within a few years, however, *Harvard had both adopted McGill's rugby rules and had persuaded other U.S. university teams to do the same*. 

In 1876, at the Massasoit Convention, it was agreed by these universities to adopt most of the Rugby Football Union rules, with some variations. 

*Princeton, Rutgers and others continued to compete using soccer-based rules for a few years before switching to the rugby-based rules of Harvard and its competitors*. U.S. colleges did not generally return to soccer until the early 20th century.


----------



## elly63

Fozzy33 said:


> The deal makes us Winnipeggers look pretty bad. l'm happy for them and all. Plz do not get me wrong. It's just Winnipeg is a bigger city then them and yet we just can not put a first class stadium proposel together like Regina. The differnce as we all know. Regina's stadium will cost $278million compare to ours at say $200 million.
> 
> l say if us Winnipeggers spent another $100 million on it. We would have a covered roof over it and the stadium would hold about 40+ thousand ppl.


That's crazy talk. Winnipeg is going to get a fantastic stadium and I for one am wondering what Regina can possibly spend that extra 88 million on. I'm thinking it will be a fully enclosed structure with a reinforced "top rim" for lack of a better term that will be able to withstand the forces of a future roof.

Why would you want a dome that wasn't retractable (big money for retractable lid) and more than 40,000 seats. If need be it can be expanded to 40,000 seats. The Bombers won't *regularly* come close to selling out 40,000 plus seats.

It's all about supply and demand. Empty seats don't increase demand and if the powers that be thought they could regularly sell out 40000 seats they would have put them in there, it wasn't money that kept the capacity smaller.

As a reference: the new Olympic Stadium roof was estimated to cost 300 million.


----------



## isaidso

elly63 said:


> Modern ... football ...


Correct. Despite earlier versions existing at central Canadian universities, modern day football is widely viewed as having grown out of the inter varsity play between Harvard University (Boston, USA) and McGill University (Montreal, Canada) in 1874. The Canadian Football League sites the first documented football game as being one played at University College, the University of Toronto November 9, 1861 so there are credible organizations that recognize its Canadian roots.

http://www.cfl.ca/page/his_timeline_1860

Football is *not* a sport Canada imported from anywhere. Neither are baseball, hockey, or lacrosse. Basketball was invented by a Canadian, first played in the US, and the majority of the players in the first game were Canadian.


----------



## isaidso

elly63 said:


> That's crazy talk.


I agree. The new stadium in Winnipeg is perfect for the Blue Bombers. If demand increases over time, they always have the option of configuring the stadia at the larger 40,000 seat capacity on a permanent basis. It's only if demand grows far beyond that 10, 20, 30 years down the road that this facility won't be adequate.


----------



## elly63

The new Regina stadium live announcement. Now that's how you make an announcement!


----------



## Welkin

Interesting, the construction will start in 2013 and wont be finished until 2017. That is four years. Most stadiums are built in 2 years or less. Anybody have any thoughts on why they are stretching it out? Is it a CYA thing so that they don't end up with a Winnipeg type situation? Anyway, I can't wait for the renderings.


----------



## carnifex2005

Welkin said:


> Interesting, the construction will start in 2013 and wont be finished until 2017. That is four years. Most stadiums are built in 2 years or less. Anybody have any thoughts on why they are stretching it out? Is it a CYA thing so that they don't end up with a Winnipeg type situation? Anyway, I can't wait for the renderings.


Weather. Between the bitter cold and harsh winds (which delayed the Winnipeg stadium) it is difficult to build something like a stadium on the Prairies. Good call by the planners of this project.


----------



## elly63

Welkin said:


> Interesting, the construction will start in 2013 and wont be finished until 2017. That is four years. Most stadiums are built in 2 years or less. Anybody have any thoughts on why they are stretching it out? Is it a CYA thing so that they don't end up with a Winnipeg type situation? Anyway, I can't wait for the renderings.


I thought the same thing. It's likely to be ready in three and they won't have to face the problems that Winnipeg did, none the least of which was the timing issue of paying back the loan and the bad PR.


----------



## Nate

Welkin said:


> Interesting, the construction will start in 2013 and wont be finished until 2017. That is four years. Most stadiums are built in 2 years or less. Anybody have any thoughts on why they are stretching it out? Is it a CYA thing so that they don't end up with a Winnipeg type situation? Anyway, I can't wait for the renderings.


If I remember correctly, they plan on the stadium being complete sometime in 2016, with 2017 being the inaugural season. 

They could also be looking at doing improvements to the exhibition grounds and the surrounding infrastructure to help pedestrians and vehicles leave more quickly and with fewer headaches. Some of this would have to be done after the stadium is complete, as you wouldn't want to have 33k people walking through the site when it is still a big construction zone. So 3 years for the stadium + 1 year for a cushion/site improvements sounds about right I think. Although some of this is a bit of guess-work...


----------



## isaidso

Any word yet on what the Saskatchewan stadium's expanded capacity might be. I'm assuming 50,000 to 55,000?


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> Any word yet on what the Saskatchewan stadium's expanded capacity might be. I'm assuming 50,000 to 55,000?


I believe that's the number being thrown around here, but nothing official yet.


----------



## koolio

Does anyone have any idea regarding what it will look like?


----------



## elly63

koolio said:


> Does anyone have any idea regarding what it will look like?


Design still being worked on.


----------



## IllumL8ker

eMKay said:


> Basically every single thing in this section of this post is completely false. Except for Toronto not hosting the Olympics, that's obviously true, but the rest is bullshit.
> 
> I don't even know where to start, lets see, first of all on the matter of the Bills moving to Toronto, *FALSE* there are two ownership groups poised to purchase the Bills when Mr. Wilson dies, both groups will be keeping them here (I cannot give details, I'm under a NDA)
> 
> 60-65% of fans come from Southern Ontario? *FALSE* What bunghole did you pull that stat out of? It varies from 15% to 25%
> 
> You didn't invent basketball, pretty sure Springfield Massachusetts was part of the United States of America in 1891
> 
> You didn't invent football, as I'm also pretty sure Princeton and Rutgers were also part of the United States in the mid 18th century
> 
> The first baseball game was *NOT* played in Canada, only the first to be recorded, it had been played for decades before that in guess where...


wow look at you took all your time on this comment and its not even right

First look at my second statement I said I thought I read somewhere that it was 60 65 years ago but I was almost ready for bed, christ read the rest of the comments hno: u :nuts:.

Next a canadian did invent basketball. Period.

Gridiron football was invented by us:



> The first documented gridiron football match was a game played on November 9, 1861, at University College, University of Toronto (approximately 400 yards west of Queen's Park). One of the participants in the game involving University of Toronto students was (Sir) William Mulock, later Chancellor of the school. A football club was formed at the university soon afterward, although its rules of play at this stage are unclear.[2][_not in citation given_]
> In 1864, at Trinity College, Toronto, F. Barlow Cumberland and Frederick A. Bethune devised rules based on rugby football. However, modern Canadian football is widely regarded as having originated with a game of rugby played in Montreal, in 1865, when British Army officers played local civilians.[2] The game gradually gained a following, and the Montreal Football Club was formed in 1868, the first recorded non-university football club in Canada.
> This rugby-football soon became popular at Montreal's McGill University. McGill challenged Harvard University to a game, in 1874.


We were playing it for 13 years before we introduced it to you aaaahhhheeeemmm guys.

And the first baseball game was played by us... they didn't have their stuff together before that to make it documented and/or they weren't playing the right game or some weird variation of it.

Jesus Christ, Get your facts straight


----------



## isaidso

koolio said:


> Does anyone have any idea regarding what it will look like?


I bet it will look like Winnipeg's new stadium minus the roof. The only way these stadia are expandable for big events like the Grey Cup is to have all the permanent seats along the sidelines. There might be some end zone seats, but they'll need all the end zone space they can get to go from 33,000 to 50,000+. Winnipeg's stadium is only going from 33,000 to 40,000 using so only needs one more tier in the end zones.

Now if only the Argonauts could get a football specific stadium like the Bombers are getting.


----------



## Nate

isaidso said:


> I bet it will look like Winnipeg's new stadium minus the roof. The only way these stadia are expandable for big events like the Grey Cup is to have all the permanent seats along the sidelines. There might be some end zone seats, but they'll need all the end zone space they can get to go from 33,000 to 50,000+. Winnipeg's stadium is only going from 33,000 to 40,000 using so only needs one more tier in the end zones.
> 
> Now if only the Argonauts could get a football specific stadium like the Bombers are getting.


They've already stated that the fans will be covered for the most part, so there will be a roof of sorts. Designs aren't final, but they have already been meeting with architects (and preliminary designs have already been developed), so they aren't exactly at the beginning of a design process. We'll probably get some news in a few weeks; I can see them wanting everything decided and wrapped up before the municipal elections in October.


----------



## koolio

IllumL8ker said:


> wow look at you took all your time on this comment and its not even right
> 
> First look at my second statement I said I thought I read somewhere that it was 60 65 years ago but I was almost ready for bed, christ read the rest of the comments hno: u :nuts:.
> 
> Next a canadian did invent basketball. Period.
> 
> Gridiron football was invented by us:
> 
> We were playing it for 13 years before we introduced it to you aaaahhhheeeemmm guys.
> 
> And the first baseball game was played by us... they didn't have their stuff together before that to make it documented and/or they weren't playing the right game or some weird variation of it.
> 
> Jesus Christ, Get your facts straight


Who cares man? For once I'd like to be in a Canadian sports thread where things like this don't get rehashed every two weeks. I agree with eMkay even if he did get a few small facts wrong or whatever. There are tons of current topics to discuss; like the new Riders stadium.


----------



## IllumL8ker

koolio said:


> Who cares man? For once I'd like to be in a Canadian sports thread where things like this don't get rehashed every two weeks. I agree with eMkay even if he did get a few small facts wrong or whatever. There are tons of current topics to discuss; like the new Riders stadium.


You obviously care if your posting about it...

I did not start this conversation someone else did... I am just laying the facts down... This thread has many conversations going pay attention if you don't like it find a new forum and/or don't post your bs on this one.


----------



## isaidso

Nate said:


> I can see them wanting everything decided and wrapped up before the municipal elections in October.


That's about the time line I was expecting. 

2007 Toronto: new soccer stadium 
2009 Quebec City: expansion of football stadium
2010 Moncton: new athletics stadium 
2010 Montreal: expansion of football stadium 
2011 Vancouver: major renovation of football/soccer stadium
2012 Montreal: expansion of soccer stadium 
2013 Winnipeg: new football stadium
2013 Edmonton: renovations to football stadium
2014 Ottawa: half a football stadium demolished and a new stand built
2015 Hamilton: new football stadium built
2017 Regina: new football stadium built


2007-2017 will be a very good span for stadia development in Canada. All that's missing is a football stadium for Halifax, a new football stadium for the Calgary Stampeders, and a proper football stadium for the Toronto Argonauts. The last one will likely be the hardest one to achieve.


----------



## Lord David

^^ Don't forget a proper stadium for Quebec! I don't expect a new Calgary stadium, but to have McMahon Stadium heavily expanded and renovated.

The last one is achievable if Toronto gets it's Olympics or WC stadium. It could be similar to Vancouver's approach with BC Place for the Whitecaps. Have tarps covering the upper stand for a 60,000ish Argonauts game, and 80,000 for major events.

A Canadian World Cup! 12 host cities in 8 Provinces. 32 team cities. Legacy soccer fields for the 3 Territories, as well as other team cities. Each Province and Territory will host an exhibition/warm-up match prior to the WC.


----------



## isaidso

PEPS in Quebec holds about 18,000 if they cram them in, but I agree that a metro that size should have a proper football stadium. Calgary will likely get a new football stadium with all the bells and whistles before the decade is out. 

Toronto? 80,000 Olympic Stadium reduced to 35,000 after the games, but expandable to 55,000 for Grey Cups. The Argonauts might one day draw more than 35,000/game, but football is not a big sport in Toronto any more. It's all hockey and soccer.


----------



## vitaming

If Toronto builds a modern Olympic stadium, the Bills (or Buffaloes!) will end up there. The NFL is all about facilities and big television markets, Buffalo offers neither.


----------



## koolio

Enough with the Bills moving to Toronto BS people. There is no indication that it will happen. The NFL does not care about individual markets. They don't even have a team in LA.


----------



## vitaming

Because there's no facility in place. If Farmer's Field or whatever broke ground today, the Rams and Jags would have a convoy race there.


----------



## isaidso

^^ If Toronto builds an Olympic stadium there will be strong pressure to have its capacity permanently reduced to the 35,000 range or lower to accommodate the football team Toronto already has..... and rightly so. This is what our football team looks like if you forgot:












koolio said:


> Enough with the Bills moving to Toronto BS people. There is no indication that it will happen. The NFL does not care about individual markets. They don't even have a team in LA.



+1 The incessant talk about the Bills/NFL coming to Toronto is beyond irritating. The Bills are Buffalo's team and the NFL has shown no interest in coming to Canada.


----------



## IllumL8ker

2015 New Quebec City NHL sized arena.
2017 New Markham NHL sized arena. (For concerts)

Showing no interest in coming to Canada?? How about year after year having regular season games here etc etc... I know I know we need to put this to rest but I don't like the note it is ending on... (I still think Toronto has a great chance of getting an NFL team...)


----------



## isaidso

IllumL8ker said:


> Showing no interest in coming to Canada?? How about year after year having regular season games here etc etc...


Rogers Communications paid a ton of money to the revenue poor *Buffalo* Bills to stage games in Toronto, that's why the games are here. The Bills also want to extend their brand/fan base in southern Ontario; they have no intention of moving here. The NFL has shown no interest in locating a franchise here either. That's public knowledge, not just some opinion aired here on SSC.

Now can we get back to stadia, arena, and the teams that use them?


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> Rogers Communications paid a ton of money to the revenue poor *Buffalo* Bills to stage games in Toronto, that's why the games are here. The Bills also want to extend their brand/fan base in southern Ontario; they have no intention of moving here. The NFL has shown no interest in locating a franchise here either. That's public knowledge, not just some opinion aired here on SSC.


One last note, totally agree with above and Rogers' are now paying a helluva lot less (renegotiated) for the "privilege" of hosting these games. The "dream" of NFL in Toronto is dying a slow death.


----------



## isaidso

Good riddance to that 'dream'. The sooner it dies, the sooner we can get on with the job of building the team and league we have. Those that prefer 'US rules' football can get their fix 2 hours down the highway... in western NY.


----------



## isaidso

We can thank hockey for that. Our stadia overall are smaller due to smaller population, but the quality is improving dramatically.









Courtesy of trebor


----------



## carnifex2005

*EDMONTON COUNCILLORS APPROVE DESIGN OF DOWNTOWN ARENA
*

EDMONTON -- Edmonton city council has voted to continue on with the design work on the proposed downtown arena.

It's going to move forward even though right now, the price tag for the project is $35 million higher than the approved budget of $450 million.

The vote was 10-3 with councillors Kerry Diotte, Tony Caterina and Linda Sloan voting against the design proposal.

Council has identified $17 million in items that can be cut from the design and still have a plus or minus variance of 20 per cent.

Councillor Karen Leibovici says she doesn't think there will be any problem in bringing the project in at $450 million.

Mayor Stephen Mandel is urging that the project go ahead without scaling things back too much.

"We've heard time and time from citizens, they don't want us to build anything for crap," Mandel said.

"They want us to build a good building, so I think at some point in time council is going to have to decide if it is going to be over, what is the overage going to look like."

Sloan says she doesn't like where this is going.

"I frankly don't care if (the arena exterior is) zinc or steel and I don't have any questions for the consultants because I think we're not at the stage where we can discuss the next stage."

"If we're going to build the bloody thing we need to get together and find consensus and find differences we have with ourselves and solve them," said Mandel.

"This project is about more than an arena. It is a catalyst for revitalizing downtown, and it is important to realize council's vision for a strong and vibrant core to our city."

The arena would be the new home for the NHL Edmonton Oilers, owned by drugstore magnate Darryl Katz.

The city is to pay $125 million towards the building, with another $125 million coming from a ticket tax and Katz putting up $100 million -- leaving a shortfall of $100 million.

City officials are still trying to secure $100 million in funding from the province -- an amount that was part of 17 conditions discussed when the arena agreement was made.


----------



## Lord David

^^ Will they retain their old arena like many other cities have? So it can serve as a secondary venue?


----------



## isaidso

I doubt it. Northlands is a dump.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Ontario PC Leader Tim Hudak warns of "significant Pan Am cost over-runs"

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...ays-progressive-conservative-leader-tim-hudak



> Progressive Conservative leader Tim Hudak is calling for a change to “outdated” Ontario labour laws, which he claims will lead to significant cost overruns at the TO2015 Pan American Games.
> 
> Hudak, a critic of the games along with MPP Rod Jackson, pointed to Ivor Wynne Stadium in Hamilton, which needs a $155 million renovation before it’s ready to host the soccer event.
> 
> Hudak said the price could increase by as much as 40 per cent because the city was handcuffed by “closed tendering.” Exactly how that figure – which would amount to more than $60 million in cost over runs – was calculated is unclear. Hudak said he got it from the City of Hamilton.
> 
> “At a crucial time to actually reign in overspending, we have great concern that Ontario’s outdated labour laws are going to drive the cost (of the Pan Am Games) up,” said Hudak.
> 
> A spokesperson for the TO2015 Games said the cost to renovate Ivor Wynne is non-negotiable and will not increase.
> 
> In Hamilton, the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America has exclusive rights to all carpentry-related work. This means only contractors that work with the union can bid on city construction projects.
> 
> The PC leader wants to change Ontario’s Labour Relations Act so that public employers are exempt from exclusivity agreements with unions.
> 
> As it stands, unions certified under the Act have exclusive rights to bargain on behalf of their employees — but that is not what limits contracting out. It is the collective agreement that does this, said a Ministry of Labour spokesperson.
> 
> The Pan American Games are still three years away, but critics are already accusing the organizing team of being over budget and behind schedule. Earlier this month, Jackson launched a weekly Pan Am accountability series to draw attention to areas he believes are of concern.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

The lovable rotund mayor of Toronto floats BMO Field as a potential new home for the Argo's

http://blogs.canoe.ca/reds/sports/ford-mentions-bmo-as-potential-cfl-home/



> TORONTO MAYOR ROB FORD TO INSIDE THE CFL RECENTLY:
> 
> “I think we need a stadium, a venue. Rogers Center with 55,000 seats is going to be pretty hard to fill (for the Argos.) The Grey Cup is sold out, but hopefully we can get a stadium.
> 
> “The obvious question became, if the Argos leave Rogers Center, where will they play?
> 
> “There’s a number of questions. We have Downsview, we have Woodbine, so we have locations to build a new stadium, or, we retrofit BMO Field, and make it like McGill Stadium in Montreal, a 25,000-seat stadium. We can do it, obviously the partners have to work together to do it.”


----------



## koolio

That can't happen anymore. They would have to knock down a stand to fit a CFL field within the stadium. Even with that, it would look weird. Their best bet would have been to get in on the stadium being built in York University right now for the Pan-Am games. But the Argos ownership burnt their bridges with the university when they squeezed out of a stadium plan in the past.


----------



## elly63

koolio said:


> That can't happen anymore. They would have to knock down a stand to fit a CFL field within the stadium. Even with that, it would look weird. Their best bet would have been to get in on the stadium being built in York University right now for the Pan-Am games. But the Argos ownership burnt their bridges with the university when they squeezed out of a stadium plan in the past.


All true, but interestingly he does float the idea of a new stadium (Woodbine, Downsview)


----------



## isaidso

Bizarre! They've really only added end zone seats then. I've never been that keen on those seats to begin with. Maybe they can get rid of them, get rid of the track, and lower the field.


----------



## Walbanger

^^ They also added 4 half corners to the second tier, beginning a wrap around of the bowl. The original top teir only covered the straight, note where the flood light supports stop in the 1978 pic to what it looked like in 1982.


----------



## IllumL8ker

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=402561

The Toronto area should be closer to getting a big-league arena this week, as GTA Sports and Entertainment Chairman and CEO Graeme Roustan will submit the GTA Centre Site Plan Application to the City of Markham on Wednesday. 

The application will allow the City of Markham - just northeast of Toronto - to examine the design, the plans' sustainability and the technical aspects of the proposed GTA Centre. Once they get approval of the application, the City of Markham will issue a building permit and construction can begin on the $325 million venue.

Plans for the new arena were unveiled at a council meeting in June. The arena is expected to seat over 20,000 with the city responsible for $162.5 million toward the final tally. 

"I have been on the road, and the buzz about the GTA centre here in Markham is all over North America," Roustan told the Toronto Star in June. "It's a very exciting project and I'm very excited to be a part of it."

Roustan had said he would like to begin construction in 2014 and have the arena completed in time to host the World Junior Hockey Championship in 2015.


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## Walbanger

^^ Sorry but what's the purpose of this arena?
Is there an overflow of events that the Air Canada Centre can't cater for?


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## Calvin W

Walbanger said:


> ^^ Sorry but what's the purpose of this arena?
> Is there an overflow of events that the Air Canada Centre can't cater for?


All about the pipe dream of one day have an NHL team playing there. There is no demand for this arena other than my ***** is bigger than your ***** syndrom.


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## Walbanger

^^ Awfully expensive dick measuring contest hey?
What it have been better (probably cheaper) for Markham to build a 40 000 seat CFL compliant stadium for the Argonauts.


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## JYDA

Calvin W said:


> All about the pipe dream of one day have an NHL team playing there. There is no demand for this arena other than my ***** is bigger than your ***** syndrom.


Pipe dream? Hardly. The league wants a 2nd team in Toronto. During the phoenix court case Bettman described it as a "league initiative". It's MLSE that's the problem. However with MLSE now owned by the content hungry sports networks there is reason to believe they'd be more open to it now than in the past under the teachers pension plan.


----------



## Calvin W

JYDA said:


> Pipe dream? Hardly. The league wants a 2nd team in Toronto. During the phoenix court case Bettman described it as a "league initiative". It's MLSE that's the problem. However with MLSE now owned by the content hungry sports networks there is reason to believe they'd be more open to it now than in the past under the teachers pension plan.


Here we go . Toronto the center of the universe, gets a NHL team finally.....

This will turn into a nice white elephant if it ever gets built. Maybe it can be used for the Summer Olympics in 2068 :cheers:


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## IllumL8ker

Hardly^^ You gotta be intelligence illiterate if you don't think this can be done.


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## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> Here we go . Toronto the center of the universe, gets a NHL team finally.....
> 
> This will turn into a nice white elephant if it ever gets built. Maybe it can be used for the Summer Olympics in 2068 :cheers:


I'm one of the last people who have that 'Toronto is the centre of the universe' attitude, but you're off the mark here. The NHL have largely abandoned their dream of expanding hockey in the US south and recognized that they need to build hockey in markets that care about their sport.

This is an urban swath containing 8.8 million people; that's more than Sydney and Melbourne combined. Melbourne has 9 AFL teams, and the Toronto area can't support 2 NHL teams? Not only is this region monied, growing, and large, but it's also the best hockey market on the planet.

I'm no fan of the NHL, but putting a 2nd team in the Toronto area is a no brainer. It's more a question of when, than if. I just hope they use 'York' (for York Region) in the name rather than 'Toronto'. I wouldn't be shocked to see 3 NHL teams in southern Ontario within the next 25 years.


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## Calvin W

Yep here we go .

I honestly don't care if Toronto builds ten arenas and has ten teams.

Just love hearing the whinging.....


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## ChesterCopperpot

Been posted in the Toronto thread - but the early works for the PanAm Athletics Stadium began last week


current said:


> Site prep at York University for the Pan Am Games Track and Field stadium, photos from Aug 3.
> "The new stadium, which will be built just south of the current Toronto Track and Field Centre, will replace the current East Office Building (EOB). It will cost approximately $40 million to $50 million, with York footing 44 per cent of the cost while the provincial and federal governments will subsidize the rest. The project is not in a core area of campus but rather in the north area where subway constructions are already taking place.
> The new track and field centre will include seating for 12,500 for the duration of the Pan Am games period from July to August 2015, but only 5,000 of those seats will be permanent and will remain after the games have concluded. The construction of the site is set to commence October 2012 and the area will be turned over to the project lead, Infrastructure Ontario. The stadium will be complete by 2014, well before the start of the Pan Am games."
> Read more: http://www.excal.on.ca/news/york-to-pay-up-to-20-million-for-pan-am-games-stadium/


----------



## vitaming

isaidso said:


> I'm one of the last people who have that 'Toronto is the centre of the universe' attitude, but you're off the mark here. The NHL have largely abandoned their dream of expanding hockey in the US south and recognized that they need to build hockey in markets that care about their sport.
> 
> This is an urban swath containing 8.8 million people; that's more than Sydney and Melbourne combined. Melbourne has 9 AFL teams, and the Toronto area can't support 2 NHL teams? Not only is this region monied, growing, and large, but it's also the best hockey market on the planet.
> 
> I'm no fan of the NHL, but putting a 2nd team in the Toronto area is a no brainer. It's more a question of when, than if. I just hope they use 'York' (for York Region) in the name rather than 'Toronto'. I wouldn't be shocked to see 3 NHL teams in southern Ontario within the next 25 years.


The Aussie concentration of clubs is one thing, but when you look at London soccer clubs or even NY area pro sports, it's absurb TO doesn't have at least two NHL teams. Imagine the money the NHL loses every year when the Leafs crash out.


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## Lord David

Calvin W said:


> Here we go . Toronto the center of the universe, gets a NHL team finally.....
> 
> This will turn into a nice white elephant if it ever gets built. Maybe it can be used for the Summer Olympics in 2068 :cheers:


I hope Toronto do bid for 2024. I've seen their 2008 bid book (look at gamesbids.com for the file links) and it was a pretty impressive highly compact bid.


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## elly63

Investors Group Field construction photos from the week of August 6-10, 2012


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> Just love hearing the whinging...


Calvin, good to see you trolling again, you've been quiet since the Regina announcement.


----------



## elly63

And speaking of bad ideas:

Prime Time Sports
August 9, 2012, 6:20 pm

Toronto councillor for Ward 10 James Pasternak joins Bob McCown and John Shannon to discuss a possible joint Canada-United States bid for the 2024 Olympics

Listen now: James Pasternak with Bob McCown and John Shannon

Listen as the PTS boys pose how ridiculous this idea is.


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## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> Calvin, good to see you trolling again, you've been quiet since the Regina announcement.


Regina what's that? 

You all don't agree, so be it. My opinion is as valid as yours mate.


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> You all don't agree, so be it. My opinion is as valid as yours mate.


Not when yours is wrong. Check...mate.

But seriously why the negative trolling attitude? Doesn't add much to this forum.


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## isaidso

Lord David said:


> I hope Toronto do bid for 2024. I've seen their 2008 bid book (look at gamesbids.com for the file links) and it was a pretty impressive highly compact bid.


In hindsight, Toronto wasn't really ready in 2008. The city is changing rapidly, and for the better. If Toronto is to welcome the world, I'd rather it happened when the city starts to come together. There's simply far too much construction and development happening; hosting should wait till the dust settles a little.

2024? The Greater Golden Horseshoe population will likely hit 10 million by then, we'll have new facilities thanks to the 2015 Pan American Games, the waterfront will be majority built out, a rail link to the airport will be done, and hopefully a couple more subway lines to boot. 

Another 100 skyscrapers in the downtown won't hurt either.


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## Lord David

Just look at the bid books, compare it to Beijing (which also had a lot of construction to do) and you can see which bid was far superior. 

I'm sure if Toronto bids for 2024, it would be similar to this, with the exception of having most of the Pan American venues as part of the bid, primarily the Field Hockey Center, the Aquatics Center (as a secondary Aquatics venue), having the temporary venues at the same sites and so forth.

All you really need to build downtown is the Villages, Main Media Center, Olympic Stadium (100,000), Velodrome (doesn't need to be permanent) and Main Aquatics Center.


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## isaidso

I'm not arguing that Toronto wasn't capable of putting on an amazing Olympics in 2008, but that the city itself will be a far more impressive metropolis in 2024 than it was in 2008. 

It's only 4 years past 2008, and Toronto has already changed significantly for the better. Lots of new skyscrapers, AGO addition, Bloor Street Improvement Project, and the waterfront redevelopment are the notable changes. 

By 2024 we'll likely have another 100 skyscrapers in the core, a Nordstrom department store, re-modeled Holt Renfrew, renovated Union Station, new rail shed, an aquarium, a dedicated rail link to Pearson, a finished waterfront, a finished East Bayfront, a finished West Docklands, more streetcar, and possibly more subway lines.

That's just stuff we know about. I'd rather the world came to Toronto when our downtown core comes together more. Yonge Street is fun, but still looks terrible on large stretches of it. Toronto in 2008 would have surprised lots of people; Toronto in 2024 is going to wow them.


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## elly63

Project manager Mike Clynes gives an exclusive update on construction progress at Investors Group Field

Hitler Finds Out That the Investors Group Field Won't be Ready for the Bombers' Home Opener


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## ChesterCopperpot

http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2012/08/16/hamilton-pan-am.html



> Hamilton city council has approved a Pan Am facility agreement without knowing the costs for a soccer stadium to be built for the 2015 games at Ivor Wynne.
> 
> John McKendrick, senior vice-president of project delivery for Infrastructure Ontario, told councillors Thursday he wouldn’t give them the numbers in public because that would make it possible for bidders to figure out what is in the agreement.
> 
> “The concern is that if we publicly say what the soft costs are, bidders will be able to figure out hard costs and then contingencies,” he said.
> The cost for the facility is in three categories, said McKendrick — hard, soft and contingency.
> 
> Hard costs cover construction while soft costs cover things like management, architectural and legal fees.
> 
> Councillor Lloyd Ferguson questioned why council couldn’t be told the cost before passing the facility agreement.
> 
> “It’s just bad business practice to sign a contract without knowing the cost,” Ferguson said.
> 
> Ferguson proposed that council go behind closed doors to learn the exact costs but was told that would contravene the Municipal Act.
> 
> Gerry Davis, general manager of public works, assured council that staff is “comfortable” with facility costs.
> 
> *“We’ve seen the numbers. We’re within budget,” Davis said of the $51 million allocated for the stadium.*
> 
> Councillors Ferguson and Brenda Johnson opposed the vote to approve the agreement.
> 
> Three bidders are in the running for the contract to design, build and construct Hamilton’s soccer stadium, as well as the track cycling velodrome and York University track stadium in Toronto.
> 
> Bird/Turner Stadium Co., Ontario Sports Solutions and United Sports all made the short-list of bidders. Each company has named their developer, architect, contractor and financial advisor.
> 
> McKendrick told reporters after the meeting that Infrastructure Ontario and Hamilton council already have the successful in mind.
> 
> The successful bidder will be announced at the end of September, he said.


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## isaidso

Good grief. What's wrong with Hamilton. Can't they get anything done right? These city 'leaders' are making the city look like a joke.


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## ChesterCopperpot

I believe Councillor Ferguson does have a background in construction.

Personally, I'd have no problems with this type of process - it's the way forward for construction projects if you ask me.


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## isaidso

Hamilton screwed up the Ti-Cats stadium plans and now the football team needs to leave town for 1 year. Hamilton lost the velodrome to another city and now to sign a contract without knowing the cost? It's been 3 years of nonsense.


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## elly63

Latest "rumours" (take with a grain of salt, but you never know) about the new Regina stadium (33,000/$278 million)

Design to be done by European architectural firm and Arena Lviv and Juventus Stadium are being considered models for the design.

*Arena Lviv* (Lviv, Ukraine 34,915/$278 million)




















*Juventus Stadium* (Turin, Italy 41,000/$148 million)


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## Cjones2451

Unless they used slave labour, I don't know how Juve built it for $148M......



elly63 said:


> Latest "rumours" (take with a grain of salt, but you never know) about the new Regina stadium (33,000/$278 million)
> 
> Design to be done by European architectural firm and Arena Lviv and Juventus Stadium are being considered models for the design.
> 
> *Arena Lviv* (Lviv, Ukraine 34,915/$278 million)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Juventus Stadium* (Turin, Italy 41,000/$148 million)


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## elly63

You know, people should really learn how to use the quote function and edit their posts so we don't see the same photos ten times.


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## koolio

Both are nice examples. The fans of Regina deserve a top notch facility.


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## elly63

Yes, they do and hopefully it will be another piece in the World Cup puzzle.


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## Welkin

Why would they use either of these designs? These are soccer stadiums, not football stadiums. Soccer stadiums have way to many seats located in the end zone area (great for soccer, lousy for CFL). Lets hope that the new stadium has less than 5,000 (2,500 per side) end zone seats and keeps that area open for temporary Grey Cup expansions.


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## elly63

It will be adapted towards CFL football in the manner you stated. These are just the rumoured examples of what they are thinking of.


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## Cjones2451

*Interesting Article*

This is an interesting article from the Toronto Star. If even a small % of this would happen it would be a huge amount of change in Arenas and Stadiums in Canada. 2035 is a long way off though......

http://www.thestar.com/business/art...league-sports-expansion-conference-board-says


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## elly63

Every time something new is proposed we hear from Glen Hodgson or Mario Lefebvre and the Conference Board of Canada to backup its validity. 

I've found they are usually extremely bullish on their pronouncements. To me, that is fine (better than useless negativity) but sometimes they are a tad overly optimistic.


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## KingmanIII

I can see an NHL franchise working out in Hamilton and another in Quebec. Where would the third one go? Halifax? Saskatchewan? Markham?


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## Cjones2451

KingmanIII said:


> I can see an NHL franchise working out in Hamilton and another in Quebec. Where would the third one go? Halifax? Saskatchewan? Markham?


I think Markham is the only other one that would be close. I think in that it is possible to have 2 GTA teams and 1 in Hamilton


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## cormiermax

It'll probably be another 20 years or so before an NHL team is viable in Halifax, maybe double that in Sask.


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## IllumL8ker

I see (I aint jinxing but) Markham and Quebec City soon to get nhl franchises way sooner than that and Hamilton well thats like 2028-9ish maybe sooner...

The MLS teams I see 3 new ones by about that time frame 2035. 

NBA and MLB I aint going to even comment on.

And 7 more cfl teams... I never even thought about that but now you say that... I see that too by 2035.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> This is about as good a football stadium as a Canadian city of 750,000 can expect.


Until Monday


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## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> Until Monday


Will see if Regina releases anything. Last I heard no Architectural firm was even signed yet.

Could be wrong on that one?


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## elly63

From what I understand they are looking at a European firm (cheaper) and these will only be preliminary drawings and not the final design. I'm not saying for sure if it will happen Monday just prepping people if it does (from a few things I've read). Just rumour at this point.


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## ChesterCopperpot

and the TiCats plans are released on September 26th


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## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> From what I understand they are looking at a European firm (cheaper) and these will only be preliminary drawings and not the final design. I'm not saying for sure if it will happen Monday just prepping people if it does (from a few things I've read). Just rumour at this point.


I'm not holding my breath yet, lots of rumors around Saskatchewan, but until something is nailed down and released.....

Hopes and dreams.....


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## elly63

Looks like the unveiling of drawings etc will be *postponed Monday until later in the week*. The granola eaters are addressing city council Monday night and it figures (to me) that a later announcement will counter any negativity generated by the anti forces and also give the allusion of allowing them their say before a fait a compli.


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## isaidso

The waiting is excruciating. Football may have its origins in Toronto/Montreal, but as far as I'm concerned Saskatchewan is the football heart land. It won't be the biggest in the land, but I hope the design signifies football's stature in this part of the country.



ChesterCopperpot said:


> and the TiCats plans are released on September 26th


Now that's a stadium design I have huge concerns over. I have a feeling its going to look really minor league compared to the West Harbour design Hamilton contemplated last year.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> I hope the design signifies football's stature in this part of the country.


I don't think we will be disappointed, I'm hoping I can say the same about Hamilton. It'll be interesting to see if the rumour sources can be trusted about what the Hamilton stadium will finally look like. I'll definitely have something to say about that.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> Now that's a stadium design I have huge concerns over. I have a feeling its going to look really minor league compared to the West Harbour design Hamilton contemplated last year.


I don't think that design was ever seriously considered if it's the enclosed one I'm thinking of. That likely would have cost a few sheckels. Yeah it would have been great, but unlikely.

I'd prepare for something along the lines of BMO or as was posted here Apogee stadium. 

It really makes you wonder though about the costs of these things and making generalized comparisons. Winnipeg is certainly a great facility, I think most of us can agree on that, and using it as a benchmark (and known quantity) we can see that:

Regina 33,000/$278 million
*Winnipeg 33,500/$190 million*
Hamilton 22,500/$155 million
BMO 22,000 (approx now)/$67.6 million in 2012 dollars

Hamilton really should be able to come up with something better than the rumour mill is suggesting. I will never be happier to admit that I was wrong if that isn't the case.


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## isaidso

I've been lowering my expectations ever since the WH site in Hamilton got ditched. That proposal was very preliminary and far more expensive due to it being tied to the Pan American Games; you're right there. That opportunity has been squandered so I'm preparing myself for the worst. 

BMO Field? I hope its not as paltry as that. Oh dear! You gotta admit, this would have been great for Hamilton. TiCats owner really made a huge error in judgement in turning it down. 

*I still can't believe he turned this down. It's not modernist, but a hell of a lot better than what we're likely to get now!*


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## elly63

Yup that's the design I was thinking of. The new stadium is still tied to the Pan Ams (hosting soccer). 

I don't think it was the stadium design that was turned down it was the location. I certainly can't see Caretaker Bob turning that stadium and location combo down if he didn't honestly believe it wasn't in the Ti-Cats best interests. It just doesn't pass the common sense test.

Boy would I love to see something like that design unveiled 10 days from now, but with 44,000 seats that design looks like it would have been a lot more expensive.

What I really find strange is how little news there is about this. They could have built a little jewel for that money and size but the rumours are saying the contrary, oh well we'll have the answer soon.

Edit: Holy cow, I just went to see if there was any new news on this topic and Google had this post indexed 5 minutes after I posted it. WOW!


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## isaidso

Correct. It was the location that was turned down, but the design went down with it. Young did believe that it was the wrong location, but that doesn't mean he was right. He's still stuck in a 20th century mentality that is completely auto focused. It's completely beyond him that people might walk or take transit to a football game. There was to be tons of underground parking, but he wanted a stadium next to highways. In his mind navigating city streets is too difficult a challenge for the fan base. 

I was shocked that someone so successful could be so out of step with commuting trends and the desire of people to be downtown. If he really wanted to increase the fan base, WH would have done that. What the hell am I going to do next to some stadium in the sticks? Stare at the highway? At least he didn't get that wish. I would have stopped going altogether.


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## elly63

Latest Regina rumour: Press conference Wednesday to reveal stadium concept drawings. Architect not needed at this point for these preliminary drawings which are to be reviewed at council meeting tonight.

Gonna be somethin' special!

Confirmed: Looks like the concept drawings (new Regina stadium) will be revealed Wednesday afternoon. Sounds like it will have some soccer-like attributes: terraces, wide concourses, large beer area, box seats.


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## elly63

View architect Dipesh Patel's stadiums ahead of Regina unveiling
Karen Brownlee CKOM Sept 19, 2012

The City of Regina is unveiling conceptual drawings of a new stadium for Regina at 1:30 p.m. on Wednesday. The City identifies Dipesh Patel as the architect on the project.

Here are other stadiums for which Patel has been the architect: Kensington Oval in Barbados and *City of Manchester Stadium* (below)


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## elly63

Delete


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## elly63

Concept Designs unveiled for New Stadium September 19, 2012
Regina - Sept. 19, 2012

Citizens now have an opportunity to learn about the Regina Revitalization Project (RRI) and view the first set of concept drawings for the new stadium at a new website: ReginaRevitalization.ca.

The various images, which will be used to guide the RFP process, show the new 33,000-seat stadium building at Evraz Place from a number of angles and highlight the features that will make it a showpiece:

• A modern and innovative design inspired by the prairie sky
• A “spectator roof” that protects fans and maintains the option to fully enclose the stadium at a later date
• A sunken bowl design and expandable seating capacity for major events
• Modern fan amenities including individual seats with better views of the field
• New plaza and outdoor spaces for events
• Multi purpose lounges and spaces that can be used year-round

This is our community stadium – a place to gather and celebrate and a point of pride for generations to come,” said Deputy City Manager and CFO Brent Sjoberg, who is responsible for the project. “This stadium is equipped to serve both the needs of our growing population and the many minor sports groups that use the stadium.”

The Regina Revitalization Project consists of three major components: the redevelopment of a section of CP lands adjacent to the Warehouse District, the decommissioning of the current Mosaic stadium and redevelopment of those lands, and a new stadium at Evraz Place.

A future information session on the new stadium concept designs is also currently being planned. Details around dates and times will be published to ReginaRevitalization.ca as they become available.


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## ChesterCopperpot

better quality here

http://www.reginarevitalization.ca/stadium-project/


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## kev_427

Uh wow, that's in Canada?


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## RMB2007

Kinda reminds me of the Allianz Stadium in Sydney, whilst the various tiers make it look much grander than a 33,000 capacity stadium. Really good start is that.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Well - that's Ivor Wynne 2 blown out of the water


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## elly63

Calvin W said:


> I am willing to put up my money to bet all of you this will look nothing like the proposal when all is said and done.


Really, how much, I'd like to get that in print. Do you understand the ideal at all of a concept drawing, there's an article I posted above that explains it. 

Of course the final product won't be the exact same but then again look at Winnipeg, not too far off either.

You're not a realist, you're just being negative for its own sake and time and again you're being proven wrong. Doesn't do much for your cred. You can't separate what you don't like from what is going to happen. I don't like what I think is going to happen in Hamilton, but it's still going to happen.

Speaking of which...


----------



## elly63

Pan Am stadium plan rollout soon
More comfort, cup holders, shorter lineups and a high tech environment
stadium concept

Expect Hamilton's new Pan Am stadium to provide greatly upgraded seating, vastly improved restrooms and food concessions, as well as some protection for fans from rain and sun and a signature look in design or theme.

But look, too, for advanced technology in terms of the scoreboard, ramped-up Wi-Fi, and perhaps interactive elements for fans. Those elements are all part of the forecast based on recent stadium development in North America.

We'll soon know for sure what the boiling stadium controversy of 2009 to 2011 has produced. Infrastructure Ontario is sticking to a vague “late this month” timing for naming the winning build/design/finance team.

But sources at City Hall and close to the Tiger-Cats say a grand public rollout of the stadium design is in the works for Oct. 12 at Ivor Wynne Stadium during half time of the Ticats game against the B.C. Lions.

Whenever, it's fair to ask if the Great Stadium Debate II will break out. Another riveting public dispute, though short-lived, could erupt if enough people don't like the design, the cost or the functionality of the estimated $150-million Pan Am facility. Remember, all but $9 million are public dollars, meaning just about everyone will pay for it one way or another, through the city's Future Fund and provincial and federal taxes.

And stadiums stand alone among public buildings for their lack of flexibility and limited use. A recent survey of major sports venues in North America found only one made economic sense. Los Angeles' Staples Center, run by entertainment giant AEG, recorded the most use. It was booked 250 days a year.

Ward 3 councillor Bernie Morelli, whose political patch includes the new Ivor Wynne, says the facility must engage the public in one form or another 365 days a year to make sense.

“Otherwise we're missing the boat,” he says. “We blew off two fields (old Ivor Wynne and Brian Timmis due to the new north-south field alignment) to get one (Pan Am). We lost one soccer field because of the stadium development. My cry is this — we need flexibility in this facility.”

Toronto 2015 CEO Ian Troop, who still has a few scars from the debate on stadium location, said the stadium development provides Hamilton with a “cost-effective” opportunity to provide a long legacy to the community.

“This is the new home of the Tiger-Cats, but it's also an opportunity to build a home for soccer in the future. And I know the city is spending a lot of time thinking through how it can serve the community there, to make it a positive departure point in terms of legacy.”

Maximizing use was one of the dilemmas facing the three competing design teams who joined with builders and financial partners to make the short list trying to win the stadium contract.

They competed for it along with Milton's velodrome, and the track and field facility at York University, in a bundled bid process.

That's over $200 million worth of work, which is why it has drawn some of the leading sports-facility designers in the world.

Folks in Minneapolis-St. Paul got to see some of their work recently when the five firms competing to design a $1-billion stadium for the Minnesota Vikings rolled out examples of previous work in a public forum.

Two of them were Populous and HKS Architects, who are part of design teams vying for the new Hamilton stadium.

Populous conceived London's Olympic stadium among its many high-profile facilities, while HKS designed Cowboys Stadium in Dallas.

Populous is paired with Kasian Architecture in one bid group, HKS with ZAS Architects in another. The third design group includes Cannon Design, which also has Olympic experience including the award-winning 2010 Olympics' Richmond Oval. Faulkner Browns Architects of England, a leading velodrome designer, and Arup Associates were the other firms.

Bob Johnston, of Cannon, was an adviser to Hamilton's Commonwealth bids and the Pan Am stadium component in the early bid process; and Cannon advises the Canadian Football League on stadium matters.

The winning concept will be awarded by Infrastructure Ontario, the provincial agency overseeing 2015 Pan Am Games' venue construction.

So, what does $150 million get you these days in a stadium that seats 22,000 people for soccer and football?

Based on recent stadium construction and the needs of tenants like the Tiger-Cats, a pro soccer team and training academy as well as community uses, here's some basics:

• Minimum 19-inch-wide seats and up to 21 inches for regular seating with armrests and cup holders.

Club seating, an upgrade from regular seats, which include access to lounges with catered food and drink, to be 22 to 24 inches wide with padding. Suite seating would be a further upgrade depending on the client.

• Larger and perhaps double the number of restrooms with quick access from seating.
• More efficient concessions with easy access from seating.
• Sightlines and proximity to the field that come close to duplicating Ivor Wynne. With a minimum 70-yard width to accommodate Pan Am soccer versus 65 yards for football, Ticat fans will likely be further from the action at the new stadium, unless the design includes seating sections that can retract.
• Most modern stadiums feature fixed or suspended roof sections that spare many fans rain and protect them from the sun, while still letting light through.
• Large and modern dressing rooms for two pro football and two pro soccer teams, as well as smaller rooms for minor sports.
• Flexibility to add temporary seating for special events like the Grey Cup.
• Wi-Fi capability so 22,000 fans can use wireless devices to search game statistics as well as conduct personal business.
• As many as 32 camera positions for special TV events, as well as an in-house TV studio.
• Prime positions for suites likely means press, radio and TV boxes will be moved to the corners, away from the traditional 55-yard-line positions.
• Reduced greenhouse gas emissions, waste diversion and recycling and efficient use of energy and water.
• A signature flourish in design or theme that says Hamilton, a demanding element in a city that is evolving.
• Community use in the form of space for health and wellness programs and space that complements future recreation development in the area surrounding the stadium.

Recent stadium development to look at when speculating on the new Ivor Wynne (the name will be determined by whoever the Ticats can sell naming rights to) include Winnipeg's new home for the Blue Bombers and two new college facilities in Texas.

The CFL's director of events and promotions, points to the stadium at University of North Texas in Denton, Texas, as a prototype for the league.

Curt Emerson, who has been compiling a blueprint for what the league needs in new stadia, called it “a model stadium, which would work well in our league with the technology they have put into it.”

The 30,000-seat Apogee Stadium, designed by HKS, is broadcast friendly and set up to help the school maximize game-day revenues.

It is also the centrepiece of an athletic campus that was awarded the platinum certification by Leadership in Energy and Design (LEED). It employs small wind turbines to offset its power use. Monitoring of the wind-power piece is part of the academic curriculum.

Infrastructure Ontario set out a LEED silver level of certification as the goal for the Hamilton stadium.

Apogee features 21 luxury suites, 750 club seats, banquet space and a team-spirit apparel store.

Winnipeg's $190-million, 33,000-seat facility on the University of Manitoba campus, meantime, boasts eight acres of roof to protect fans and a full-time restaurant.

Investor's Group Field has 28 restrooms (two 120 feet-by-30 feet), video scoreboards, 250 high definition TV throughout the stadium, and has a sunken bowl design with the field 25-feet below entrances.

The $163-million remake of Texas Christian University's 40,000-seat stadium in Fort Worth was conceived by HKS, and features southwest art deco touches in keeping with the campus, and weaves the history of the university and Fort Worth throughout the facility.

And to add perspective, consider the $60-million, 18,000-seat high school, yes high school, stadium in Allen, Texas, a suburb of Dallas.

It opened last month to serve the Allen Eagles, but it also has a training centre for wrestling and an indoor golf area.


----------



## Welkin

Nate said:


> If all you ever do is be happy to do everything on a small city scale, that is all you will ever be. If you want to break free of that and really try and give yourself the chance to become something more, you have to aim higher, which is what I think this does. And it doesn't overreach; it provides a good balance of building something that can be a showpiece, but at the same time not bankrupt the city. It also maxes the Provincial contribution of 30% up to $80 million.
> 
> Finally the same spirit that infected Saskatoon years and years ago is starting to catch in Regina (and across the whole province really), and this project is an example of it. It's showing people that we can be more and that we aren't just satisfied to be some small Canadian city in the middle of the prairies.
> 
> There's being "practical" and then there's being overly miserly and falling into the trap that plagued Saskatchewan since the Great Depression and made us known as the place to be from, not the place to be. Yes many of those governments were very responsible, but we stagnated.


*The CFL's director of events and promotions, points to the stadium at University of North Texas in Denton, Texas, as a prototype for the league.

Curt Emerson, who has been compiling a blueprint for what the league needs in new stadia, called it “a model stadium, which would work well in our league with the technology they have put into it.”

The 30,000-seat Apogee Stadium, designed by HKS, is broadcast friendly and set up to help the school maximize game-day revenues.

It is also the centrepiece of an athletic campus that was awarded the platinum certification by Leadership in Energy and Design (LEED). It employs small wind turbines to offset its power use. Monitoring of the wind-power piece is part of the academic curriculum.

Infrastructure Ontario set out a LEED silver level of certification as the goal for the Hamilton stadium.

Apogee features 21 luxury suites, 750 club seats, banquet space and a team-spirit apparel store.*

Apogee stadium was built in 2009 for $78 million. A reasonable upgrade to Regina's CFL standards could have been done for another $70 million. Your logic gives Regina a "small ***** complex" and that we need a fancy car to get the girls or to make us "the place to be from". Regina can stand on its own. We don't need an expensive stadium to make the other cool Canadian cities like us.


----------



## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> Really, how much, I'd like to get that in print. Do you understand the ideal at all of a concept drawing, there's an article I posted above that explains it.
> 
> Of course the final product won't be the exact same but then again look at Winnipeg, not too far off either.
> 
> You're not a realist, you're just being negative for its own sake and time and again you're being proven wrong. Doesn't do much for your cred. You can't separate what you don't like from what is going to happen. I don't like what I think is going to happen in Hamilton, but it's still going to happen.
> 
> Speaking of which...


I have yet to be "proven" wrong about the Regina stadium, nothing is set in stone or built, so pretty fucking hard to be wrong mate :lol:.

Come back in 3 or 4 years and see how it looks then. My original estimate was 2017, looks like that may be spot on by the time this thing is finished...


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> No stadium will be started for at least 5 years. You can bet on that.
> 
> Who's going to pay for it Nate? The city going to write that big fat check now to start design and engineering work? Kind of hard to do that when the city doesn't even have a location yet.
> 
> Won't even have a location by the end of the year let alone a set of working drawings....


I think we have the answer to all your posted poop *mate*. What's with this *mate* thing? You some sort of pompous British boor?

You seem to want to bet a lot, gambling problem? Anything else you want to bet on? Let us know and the rest of us can make money doing the opposite.


----------



## Nate

Welkin said:


> *The CFL's director of events and promotions, points to the stadium at University of North Texas in Denton, Texas, as a prototype for the league.
> 
> Curt Emerson, who has been compiling a blueprint for what the league needs in new stadia, called it “a model stadium, which would work well in our league with the technology they have put into it.”
> 
> The 30,000-seat Apogee Stadium, designed by HKS, is broadcast friendly and set up to help the school maximize game-day revenues.
> 
> It is also the centrepiece of an athletic campus that was awarded the platinum certification by Leadership in Energy and Design (LEED). It employs small wind turbines to offset its power use. Monitoring of the wind-power piece is part of the academic curriculum.
> 
> Infrastructure Ontario set out a LEED silver level of certification as the goal for the Hamilton stadium.
> 
> Apogee features 21 luxury suites, 750 club seats, banquet space and a team-spirit apparel store.*
> 
> Apogee stadium was built in 2009 for $78 million. A reasonable upgrade to Regina's CFL standards could have been done for another $70 million. Your logic gives Regina a "small ***** complex" and that we need a fancy car to get the girls or to make us "the place to be from". Regina can stand on its own. We don't need an expensive stadium to make the other cool Canadian cities like us.


A shit-tonne of the seating is endzone at Apogee, something that is not being done in the Regina stadium where the vast majority will be sideline (which can have higher ticket prices set).

Construction costs are also much much higher in Canada than Texas. For example, BMO stadium was built for a fairly similar amount, yet, it is 2/3rds the size, and even less of a real structure than Apogee (in terms of the sideline seating). Furthermore, Apogee's endzone seating is basically iron rebar. They probably also don't have to worry as much about the ground shifting/heaving due to temperature changes from -30 to +30 and their soil probably isn't the gumbo-clay type, both would result in higher construction costs here.

The architect involved in this design proposal stage has done a lot of work in terms of studying Regina's climate, where the wind comes from, how the weather changes, etc, and has designed a structure that will help mitigate some of those factors. 

And no, it's not a small ***** complex, it's an attitude of being sick of just building the bare-minimum to get by instead of actually investing value into something to improve our city/province. It's about doing something more than just holding onto the status quo and about trying to move to the next level.

In the 70s Commonwealth was built for $78 mill. Around the same time, Regina was considering a new stadium, but instead decided to just renovate/add-on to Taylor Field (at a cost of somewhere around $30 mill I believe). That looks like a pretty short-sighted vision considering what Edmonton got for their money.

A "small ***** complex" decision would be to build a Cowboys Stadium in Regina. Our situation is like buying the mid-range sedan instead of repairing the rusted out oldsmobile or buying the Pontiac Sunfire. The "small *****" equivalent would be the Hummer or Lamborghini... which clearly isn't on the table.

I'd rather not go into another 60 years of stagnation. IU plan to stay in Regina\Saskatchewan for the rest of my life and as such, I want to see us excell in a few areas instead of just being content with "decent" or "passable" across the board.

For another comparison of Construction costs in Regina vs the states... This site basically says the average price of a 16 storey office tower in the states (with about 260,000 sq ft of office space) would be in the area of $30-35 mill. Meanwhile, the Hill Tower in Regina will be 220,000 sq ft and is in the area of $100 million. So trying to cheap out won't really get you very much at all. May as well spend a bit more money and get something that will be worth the investment and last.


----------



## elly63

The rumour mill is giving mixed signals about the new Hamilton stadium. Apogee Stadium is often mentioned but other opinions point to a design with two unconnected stands like Winnipeg's Canad Inns.

The Hamilton article I posted above is more of a what they want in the new stadium rather than what is in the design. The article mentions *protection for fans from rain and sun* but a roof may not be part of the stadium. And speaking of which...



elly63 said:


> *Something like the old Cowboys' Texas Stadium?* - Elly
> 
> Stadium design up in air
> Will Chabun, Leader-Post December 15, 2011
> 
> Fiacco said research has shown there are open-air sports-entertainment facilities in North American "winter cities" such as Regina that have concourse areas and fan seating covered, "so that the only part of the facility that's open is the actual field."
> 
> That lets these facilities be used year-round - while costing less than domed stadiums.


The only thing I could think of that I thought Regina had in mind was Texas Stadium. Hard to believe that Regina would actually do something similar.


----------



## Welkin

Nate said:


> *A "small ***** complex" decision would be to build a Cowboys Stadium in Regina. Our situation is like buying the mid-range sedan instead of repairing the rusted out oldsmobile or buying the Pontiac Sunfire. The "small *****" equivalent would be the Hummer or Lamborghini... which clearly isn't on the table.*
> 
> Well not exactly. Consider that the Cowboys spent $1.3 billion dollars on Cowboys Stadium. That sounds like a lot until you consider the fact that the Cowboys had $500 million in revenue and a operating profit of $227 million. The team is also worth $2.1 billion dollars. The Cowboys Stadium cost *2.6 times revenue* or *5.7 times profit*. Considering these numbers, the cost of the Cowboys Stadium is justifiable. The Cowboys play in a big money league.
> 
> On the other hand, the Roughriders Stadium will cost $300 million. The Riders had $32.4 million in revenue and $3.8 million in operating profit. Thus, the Riders Stadium will *cost 9.3 times revenue* or *78.9 times profit*. As much as I love the CFL, it is and always will be a small money league. That is one of the best features of the league.
> 
> You can cut and dice the numbers all you want and complain that "we deserve" this because we have been frugal all our lives, or this will make Regina really a cool place to live, or the Riders are worth it or any other justification you want, but in the end it is a massive waste of taxpayer's dollars to spend $300 million on a CFL stadium. Oh well, end of debate. Its not like we all won't be there cheering on the Riders regardless of what they build or what they spend.


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## Calvin W

Good Post Welkin. Hit the nail on the head.....


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## elly63

Welkin said:


> but in the end it is a massive waste of taxpayer's dollars to spend $300 million on a CFL stadium.


I'd be curious to know how much you think they should have spent and if you think it will only be a CFL stadium.

In the next little while we'll be seeing a new stadium built for $155 million and I don't think it will have the cultural impact that the new Regina stadium will. When passing through Hamilton will people make an effort to see it as they would the new Regina or Winnipeg stadiums, I have my doubts. 

The Olympic stadium in Montreal is still a popular tourist attraction all while a study has been underway to make it relevant again (as a facility) in a city with two other pro stadiums.


----------



## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> I'd be curious to know how much you think they should have spent and if you think it will only be a CFL stadium.
> 
> In the next little while we'll be seeing a new stadium built for $155 million and I don't think it will have the cultural impact that the new Regina stadium will. When passing through Hamilton will people make an effort to see it as they would the new Regina or Winnipeg stadiums, I have my doubts.
> 
> The Olympic stadium in Montreal is still a popular tourist attraction all while a study has been underway to make it relevant again (as a facility) in a city with two other pro stadiums.


No one is going out of there way to "see" the new Regina stadium when it is finished....


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> No one is going out of there way to "see" the new Regina stadium when it is finished....


When it is finished? Make up your mind, are they going to build it or not?

Just like nobody goes to the Olympic stadium even though no team plays there.


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## isaidso

Saskatchewan is becoming a wealthier/more cultivated place, but there is still a solid segment of the population there that are bare bones to the extreme. Anything nice, shiny, or sophisticated is going to get vehemently ridiculed/derided as frivolous, extravagant and seen as an outrage. 

They'd rather keep Saskatchewan down forever than have the province progress beyond their comfort level. It's the same mentality as those people that don't want their kids to go to college because they didn't.

This will get built whether those people like it or not. If people don't like the new shiny stadium, they don't have to go to it. I'm sure they can find some rickety rust bucket stadium they'd feel more comfortable sitting in.


----------



## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> I think we have the answer to all your posted poop *mate*. What's with this *mate* thing? You some sort of pompous British boor?
> 
> You seem to want to bet a lot, gambling problem? Anything else you want to bet on? Let us know and the rest of us can make money doing the opposite.


What's the matter *mate*, your issues surfacing?:lol:

Want to bet on it?hno:

I never ever said I didn't want a new stadium, read carefully *mate*....

I didn't want the government wasting tax payers dollars on this thing. Hell if Regina wants to build this, go for it. They are, and will build it. But the *Provincial* Government is not footing the cost of this stadium *mate*.


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> I never ever said I didn't want a new stadium, read carefully.


Nobody knows what you say, it changes by the day. Apparently now you think the stadium will be built. If you could be clear about *anything* and stop reversing your opinion with every post people wouldn't have to *read carefully*.


----------



## elly63

Calvin W said:


> But the *Provincial* Government is not footing the cost of this stadium *mate*.


Can you read, mate?

Under a memorandum of understanding (MOU) signed Saturday, *the province will put in $80 million over four years*, the city of Regina will ante up $73 million (including about $3-million worth of land) plus *take out a provincial loan of $100 million* to be repaid with interest over 30 years, and the Saskatchewan Roughriders will pony up $25 million,


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## isaidso

Does this mean that the Ottawa stadium at Lansdowne Park is under construction or is this another building on the site:









Courtesy of ThaLoveDocta


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## isaidso

Looks like we'll be about half the way there as far as stadia refurbishment/construction across Canada. With Ottawa (2014), Regina (2016-2017), and Hamilton (2014) set to have their stadia completed within the next few years, there will only be a few holes left to fill.

Quebec City, Halifax, and Calgary will need new stadia and we'll be there. I suppose we can write off Toronto getting a proper football stadium any time soon although it will have to happen for football to gain any traction there.


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## Lord David

Quebec City could use a new stadium. It could be part of their 2026 Olympic bid, rather than proposing that temporary (yet ideally located) venue from 2002.

Even if they don't win the bid, the lasting legacy is that the stadium should be built regardless, or heck, even "half" finished at a 25,000 capacity, only to be expanded for an Olympics.


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## isaidso

They have PEPS at Universite Laval. It's a college football stadium listed at about 12,300 seats, but they routinely cram 18,000 in there. Laval, incidentally, has been the biggest obstacle to getting a CFL sized football stadium built in Quebec City. 

Laval doesn't want the competition. They have the football market largely to themselves. Btw, PEPS built a sports facility abutting this football stadium so they will never be able to expand capacity here all that much. I think it was done on purpose to keep the CFL out. Ironically, all they accomplished was to shoot themselves in the foot. 

The CFL will arrive eventually, and they just hemmed their stadium in despite having huge demand and tons of land.

*PEPS, Quebec City*


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## Double Duty

elly63 said:


>


What an excellent design, reminds me a little of Aviva Stadium...


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## isaidso

It confused me to see US football in an Irish stadium. Aviva looks great, wouldn't be able to fit a Canadian football field in there though.


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## elly63

Investors Group Field Construction Time Lapse
Not sure what the song has to do with it, kind of a poor choice.


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## isaidso

*10 Largest Football Stadia in Canada*

01. Olympic Stadium, Montreal 66,308
02. Commonwealth Stadium, Edmonton 62,531
03. BC Place, Vancouver 54,320
04. Skydome, Toronto 53,506
05. McMahon Stadium, Calgary 35,650

06. Mosaic Stadium, Regina 33,427
07. Ivor Wynne Stadium, Hamilton 30,000
08. Canad Inns Stadium, Winnipeg 29,553
09. Molson Stadium, Montreal 25,012
10. PEPS, Quebec City 12,257


Winnipeg's new stadium will have 33,422 permanent seats while Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton is undergoing a capacity reduction due to the installation of wider seats. It's new capacity will be 56,302; still good for 2nd largest stadium in Canada.


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## elly63

isaidso said:


> Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton is undergoing a capacity reduction due to the installation of wider seats. It's new capacity will be 56,302; still good for 2nd largest stadium in Canada.


Actually 52,000. Haven't we been through this before or is my memory going?

With our new stadiums being built and what we have that can be refurbished, aside from the big showpiece stadium we match up pretty well with Mexico who are bidding for a WC.


----------



## Welkin

elly63 said:


> Actually 52,000. Haven't we been through this before or is my memory going?
> 
> With our new stadiums being built and what we have that can be refurbished, aside from the big showpiece stadium we match up pretty well with Mexico who are bidding for a WC.


I wonder how much Canada would spend or would need to spend in order to host the World Cup. Many host nations spend on a lot more than just a few new stadiums. Japan/South Korea spent $9.4 billion, Germany spent $6.0 billion euros, South Africa spent $3.5 billion, Russia is expected to spend $22 billion, Brazil will spent $13 billion and Qatar is spending $220 billion (they must be re-building the entire country). How many $$$billions do you think Canada would be willing to spend? Would $10 billion be out of reason?


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## elly63

Japorea was known as the poster child for spending excess and Qatar will easily pick up the mantle. I have no idea what costs are reasonable but I can assume that the Germans were satisfied with their ROI on new and refurbished facilities (don't know that for sure, there are always people who will protest anything)

The only marker we have for a Canada bid was the Economic Feasibility Study for Canada Hosting the FIFA 2010 World Cup (done June 27, 2000).

A few notes: this study was done before the current Canadian stadium building boom. It does not take into account the new stadiums in Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa and Hamilton. 

And before anyone bitches, this semi serious bid was on the *EXTREME CHEAP*. Relative to now, the costs are out of date and a complete joke but the document does contain the factors that need to be covered and aside from the inaccurate costs is a good point for discussion.

To reiterate, no need to point it out, the spending numbers in the report are a joke, I get that


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## elly63

Doesn't seem to be much news regarding the Hamilton announcement which was rumoured to be made today. 

_But sources at City Hall and close to the Tiger-Cats say a grand public *rollout of the stadium design is in the works for Oct. 12* at Ivor Wynne Stadium during half time of the Ticats game against the B.C. Lions._


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## IllumL8ker

Here is the timeline of renovation of/new big arenas and stadiums:

2007 Toronto: new soccer stadium
2009 Quebec City: expansion of football stadium
2010 Moncton: new athletics stadium
2010 Montreal: expansion of football stadium
2011 Vancouver: major renovation of football/soccer stadium
2012 Montreal: expansion of soccer stadium
2013 Winnipeg: new football stadium
2013 Edmonton: renovations to football stadium
2014 Ottawa: half a football stadium demolished and a new stand built
2014 Edmonton: New nhl sized arena 
2014 Hamilton: new football stadium built
2015 Quebec City: New nhl sized arena
2015 Markham: New nhl sized arena (Not final yet)
2017 Regina: new football stadium built


This is a beauty time for stadium/arenas in Canada... the question is what more can we fit in there I know isaidso said something about calgary('s) stadium so I guess we will see.


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## isaidso

There are no stadia/arena plans in the works in Calgary, but I'd be surprised if things remain that way for long. In 5 years, the Saddledome and McMahon will both look antiquated compared to most other Canadian cities. Calgary continues to boom and is very wealthy. They'll likely start the conversation if it already hasn't started.



elly63 said:


> Actually 52,000. Haven't we been through this before or is my memory going?
> 
> With our new stadiums being built and what we have that can be refurbished, aside from the big showpiece stadium we match up pretty well with Mexico who are bidding for a WC.


We have gone through this before; I just took the number off the Commonwealth Stadium wikipedia site. I can't comment on your memory although mine is worse than 10 years ago.

Once we get new stadia in Regina, Hamilton, and Ottawa we can justifiably say that this country has an impressive collection of stadia. The only negative is top notch Olympic stadium. Montreal's would need extensive work.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Some news from Ottawa regarding construction costs

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/City+f...ens+slightly/7298613/story.html#ixzz27Znn3E1t

Interesting from that



> One remarkable improvement in the financials is the amount that the city and its private partners in the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group expect to raise from selling the stadium’s naming rights: Last winter, that was supposed to raise $15.7 million but now the estimate is a $50.2 million. The massive increase in the rights’ estimated value isn’t explained in any detail in the report, except that it’s “based on comparable facilities and agreements in Canada, and the guidance provided by OSEG’s consultant.”


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> There are no stadia/arena plans in the works in Calgary, but I'd be surprised if things remain that way for long.


They (Flames/Stamps) are looking at a new arena and stadium, nothing concrete yet but they are studying the issue. Stamps President and COO Lyle Bauer was one of those responsible for getting the ball rolling on Winnipeg's new stadium.



isaidso said:


> We have gone through this before; I just took the number off the Commonwealth Stadium wikipedia site. The only negative is top notch Olympic stadium. Montreal's would need extensive work.


The 52,000 comes from Len Rhodes, the Eskimos club president and CEO. If he doesn't know how many seats they're going to have I don't know who does. 

There is supposed to be a report (Lise Bissonnette chairwoman) out late in the year of what is going to happen in Montreal. They're not going to tear it down so it's likely you will see extensive refurbishing.


----------



## elly63

Pan Am Stadium unveiling comes next month
CHML 9/26/2012

The drawings of Hamilton's Pan Am Stadium will be unveiled on October 12th.

City and government officials, including those from Infrastructure Ontario, will be in town to show residents what the facility will look like.

The groundbreaking is expected to occur once the Hamilton Tiger-Cats season is over in November.

The Pan Am Stadium is expected to be completed by July 1st 2014.


----------



## isaidso

elly63 said:


> They (Flames/Stamps) are looking at a new arena and stadium, nothing concrete yet but they are studying the issue. Stamps President and COO Lyle Bauer was one of those responsible for getting the ball rolling on Winnipeg's new stadium.
> 
> The 52,000 comes from Len Rhodes, the Eskimos club president and CEO. If he doesn't know how many seats they're going to have I don't know who does.
> 
> There is supposed to be a report (Lise Bissonnette chairwoman) out late in the year of what is going to happen in Montreal. They're not going to tear it down so it's likely you will see extensive refurbishing.


Ok, I'll try and remember that 52,000 figure but they should fix that wikipedia figure. I forgot about the Flames and Stampeders being part of the same organization. I didn't give their statement of interest about new facilities much weight. Do you think its at the point where they're seriously looking at it?

I hope any future Saddledome keeps its name and symbolic roof shape. It's really difficult for a city to cultivate an image that gains traction. If you've managed to develop one, as Calgary has, you should milk it rather than ignore it. 

McMahon? Calgary seems destined to be Canada's 4th largest metropolis, but I don't see that translating to a stadium much larger than the current one. Stampeders attendance seems stuck in the 30,000-35,000 range. Do they just build another stadium like Winnipeg did or do they build a large marquee stadium that can compete with BC Place, Skydome, Olympic Stadium, and Commonwealth Stadium for the big events?

There's no way in hell that Calgary will land a WC semi-final (or similar event) unless they build something that rivals those other big stadia in capacity. A lot depends on what role within Canada that Calgary wants to aspire to. I'd argue that ambitious Calgary wants to grow into a rival to Vancouver and Montreal in the not too distant future.


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> Ok, I'll try and remember that 52,000 figure but they should fix that wikipedia figure. I forgot about the Flames and Stampeders being part of the same organization. I didn't give their statement of interest about new facilities much weight. Do you think its at the point where they're seriously looking at it?


I mentioned Lyle Bauer and his involvement but this is getting to the point where this organization with all its resources and the wealth in the Calgary area is going to be situated in the worst stadium in the league regarding money making opportunities and fan experience. I understand the sightlines are good but they're good at Ivor Wynne too and we know what is happening there.



isaidso said:


> McMahon? Calgary seems destined to be Canada's 4th largest metropolis, but I don't see that translating to a stadium much larger than the current one. Stampeders attendance seems stuck in the 30,000-35,000 range.
> 
> There's no way in hell that Calgary will land a WC semi-final (or similar event) unless they build something that rivals those other big stadia in capacity. A lot depends on what role within Canada that Calgary wants to aspire to. I'd argue that ambitious Calgary wants to grow into a rival to Vancouver and Montreal in the not too distant future.


I don't think it would be wise to try and build something to try and rival the big cities but the Saskatchewan stadium would be a good benchmark and maybe finish the retractable dome with under 40000 seats. If Calgary wants to aspire to bigger things this is the kind of stuff you do and for that McMahon just doesn't cut it. Almost every stadium in the CFL will have something special or iconic about it, in my mind McMahon doesn't and that's taking into consideration Olympic opening and closing ceremonies were held there.

I'm a big Canadian soccer fan and I think our team of self overrated prima donnas should lower themselves and get out on the hustings and play a few games outside Toronto to help grow the game. If that means playing on plastic for an occasional friendly so be it. They could play in Vancouver, Edmonton, Regina and Winnipeg's new facilities but does anyone foresee that happening at McMahon in Calgary. I don't.


----------



## Villareal27




----------



## Sonrise

Villareal27 said:


>



I agree


----------



## IllumL8ker

elly63 said:


> I'm a big Canadian soccer fan and I think our team of self overrated prima donnas should lower themselves and get out on the hustings and play a few games outside Toronto to help grow the game. If that means playing on plastic for an occasional friendly so be it. They could play in Vancouver, Edmonton, Regina and Winnipeg's new facilities but does anyone foresee that happening at McMahon in Calgary. I don't.


I'm a big Canadian Soccer fan too. I know why don't they play in Vancouver... it has a *FIFA* _2-star_ certification, the *highest* _rating_ possible and they haven't even played a friendly there yet. I know they have been playing good as late but they might have even better luck outside of Toronto... Toronto doesn't have the best sports luck just look at all their major sports teams... they suck.


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## elly63

IllumL8ker said:


> why don't they play in Vancouver... it has a *FIFA* _2-star_ certification, the *highest* _rating_ possible and they haven't even played a friendly there yet.


All the new Canadian stadiums as far as I know have consulted FIFA during the design process. And I'm pretty sure they will all have FIFA 2 star, Winnipeg and Ottawa for sure, as they will be hosting the WWC in 2015. Hamilton and Ottawa (already awarded?) will be looking for NASL franchises so again the likelihood of FIFA 2 star for Hamilton. Oops, I forgot Hamilton will be hosting PanAm soccer so obviously 2 star for them as well. That just leaves Regina which is the most soccer friendly looking stadium of them all.

Our men's NT only wants to play on turf at BMO in Toronto and to a lesser extent Montreal. This doesn't sell the game in the ROC if the people can't meet and greet the players in person like our popular women's team.

Playing an occasional friendly on AT (artificial turf) isn't going to kill them. People wonder what FIFA certification testing is, it's real simple. It's how close the AT resembles a proper turf pitch. The closer the AT resembles grass the higher the certification.


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## elly63

FIFA Quality Concept for Football Turf

Artificial turf has been around now for several decades. It can be argued that artificial turf was originally developed to address the limitations of natural grass. However, the earliest versions were not designed for football and changed the game dramatically. Therefore, football never thoroughly embraced the idea of high-level competition matches on artificial surfaces. The breakthrough came when manufacturers started to develop surfaces specifically designed for football. Manufacturers have now developed a turf that mirrors real grass. In order to get away from the short, tightly packed matting of the earlier generation, nowadays, the concept is to produce longer and more thinly spaced tufts and most of the systems are infilled with sand for support and rubber granules to give bounce. This newest generation of artificial turf has proven to be the most favourable for football to date.

FIFA realised that, as the game’s global popularity increases, so the climate plays a greater part in limiting its development. Players in countries at the extreme ends of the temperature range will not necessarily benefit from the predominance of natural grass turf. With the deployment of football turf, FIFA has recognised the enormous benefits artificial pitches would bring to the global development of football, not only because artificial turf can be used in more extreme climates, but because where a pitch is used intensively it can be used almost 24 hours a day and seven days a week.

The FIFA RECOMMENDED marks are only awarded to those football turf pitches that have passed a series of stringent laboratory and field tests. *Natural grass in ideal condition is the benchmark for these FIFA test criteria* in order to ensure highest playing comfort and to constantly improve the quality of football turf pitches. 

Therefore, every turf product must first pass laboratory tests to determine its composition and must then be tested for durability, joint strength, climatic resistance, player-to-surface interaction and ball-to-surface interaction. In addition, the *reaction of the turf to the skin of the players, when sliding on the surface, will be measured in form of skin abrasion and friction* for the higher of the two FIFA RECOMMENDED levels. If it passes all these tests, the first stage of the process towards the award of the marks is completed.


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## elly63

The thing about the CFL was that there was never anything wrong with the game or the players for that matter. It was all in the presentation. After the lost generation (sucked in by the hype of the NFL) all it took was for someone to believe. Keith Pelley was a CFL fan and he acquired the TV contract and put on a professional presentation. 

When some here talk about 80,000 seat stadiums, and you put that on TV with two thirds of the seats empty the home viewer thinks if nobody cares to go see this why should I watch it. The new right-sized stadiums will add to the spectacle and add respectability. 

People forget how influential NFL Films was to the growth of the NFL. Their presentations were almost high art. TSN has commissioned film makers to create the Engraved on a Nation series starting on Thanksgiving Monday with a doc about Rider Nation. This is the kind of thing that really sells.


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## isaidso

^^ Agree 100%. The CFL is executing well and finally paying attention to their image, game day experience, etc. They're not there yet though and think they've dropped the ball on promoting the 2012 Grey Cup to southern Ontario. It's not a disaster for the league, just frustrating that they didn't seize the opportunity given them.



Nate said:


> They're partnering with corporate Canada in the festival and major events for the 10 days leading up to the Grey Cup (The budget being apparently $20-30 million according to a news article I read on the Grey Cup website). And I believe the Grey Cup will be featured pretty prominently in the Santa Claus Parade (since you were worried about parade visibility).


My issue is that 10 days at the end of the season doesn't cut it. They needed high visibility from July 1st onwards. Like it or not, the health of the product in Toronto and Hamilton matters to the whole league. Not enough has been done. There's a huge corporate base in Toronto and they didn't do a good enough job tapping that for maximum effect.



Nate said:


> Afterall, it's kind of difficult to pump up an event when the Toronto-centric news/media outlets don't really give the CFL much respect.


But that's precisely why they needed to market the heck out of it. If there's anytime when you have a hope of getting the attention of the Toronto media, the 100th Grey Cup is it. They needed to bite the bullet and spend the money. When's the next opportunity? The 150th anniversary?

Opportunities don't come around very often and they've blown it already. 10 days in late November is nice, but a case of too little, too late.


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## IllumL8ker

Nate said:


> They're partnering with corporate Canada in the festival and major events for the 10 days leading up to the Grey Cup (The budget being apparently $20-30 million according to a news article I read on the Grey Cup website). And I believe the Grey Cup will be featured pretty prominently in the Santa Claus Parade (since you were worried about parade visibility).
> 
> The other teams in the league have propped up the Argos and the Ticats a few times over the last decade or so (other teams who had trouble had to support themselves, e.g. the Riders had to hold telethons back in the 90s to stay afloat). How much do you want other teams to pump in? Their entire profits? How much in profit do you think the other teams make? The Riders are generally at the top of the heap now, and net profits are only $3-5 million a year.
> 
> They have a limited budget they can utilise for both promotion/advertising and for actually putting on the events. They don't really have to advertise to the rest of Canada; and they probably think concentrating their efforts putting on the best party possible in Toronto will be a lot more useful that throwing up banners that people probably won't pay too much attention to anyway. The word of mouth type news that there's an awesome party going on in downtown Toronto, and that said party will be going on for another 10 days will probably turn out to be much better advertising than banners strewn in far-flung areas of the GTA.
> 
> Afterall, it's kind of difficult to pump up an event when the Toronto-centric news/media outlets don't really give the CFL much respect. It'd be different if by advertising and pushing your event you could get the tag on effect of media covering it, but chances are it would be ignored and end up being wasted money. You're better off saving it up and putting on an amazing event. Many people from the rest of the country will be there (including myself), and a gathering like that will be tough to ignore, even for the more pro-American based league media organizations.
> 
> Also, Braley, the current owner of the Argos, took over the Lions when they had average attendances of around 15-20k per game. Now the Lions flirt with the 30k consistantly. The Argos are starting at a similar position at around 22k per game, so I have faith that Braley has a plan and is working hard at gaining ground back.
> 
> I think you just need to relax a little and not be so alarmist about this. As a league we are probably in the strongest position we've been in since the 70s, and with Ottawa coming back on board, and a new media deal being worked on for the 2013/2014 season (there is an option to extend the current deal for a sixth year into 2013), not to mention the recent refurbisments to BC place and Molson Stadium, the current refurbishments to Commonwealth Stadium, the soon to be completed stadium in Winnipeg, and the imminent stadiums in Hamilton and Regina, the next 5 years should be pretty bright.


I love your positivity Nate...

I still think once Toronto's major teams start doing better and this jinx hovering above the city is lifted you will see better Argo attendances, hey the Toronto major sports team jinx might never be broken it might be there forever but one thing is for certain once the cfl grows like 7 more teams by 2035 like that one article said the cfl will be better and as a result argos WILL be better... count on it... just the speed of this happening (argo's being better) is the variable.


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## timo9

elly63 said:


> They’re here … new seats arrive at Commonwealth Stadium Tuesday 17 July 2012
> Esks.com Staff
> 
> The moment the Eskimo Empire has eagerly awaited for is here. New seat installation is underway at Commonwealth Stadium.
> 
> Over the next two seasons, the city-run initiative will see all seats replaced in sections, starting with sections F and G. It’s not possible to know when specific sections will be complete at this this time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The green and gold seats are two inches wider, more comfortable and have CUP HOLDERS. Executive suites will be outfitted with a high-back padded seat, while the current bench seating in the north and south end zones will be replaced with a half-back seat. Samples are on display in the Eskimo Team Store so stop by and take a “test drive.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The current seats date back to the Commonwealth Games in 1978. They have seen their share of Eskimo history, including hosting four Grey Cup championships (1984, 1997, 2002 and 2010). Details on how you can purchase a seat are in development and will be available shortly. Stay tuned to esks.com.


How long will the works take ?


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## Nate

timo9 said:


> How long will the works take ?


In terms of the seats, they've already replaced about 8 of the lower sections (just an estimate for watching games on tv). During the offseason the pace can probably pick up a fair bit.


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## carnifex2005

*CFL FRANCHISE EXPECTED FOR OTTAWA AFTER STADIUM VOTE PASSES*

The CFL says it is on course to add a team in Ottawa after city council approved the redevelopment of Lansdowne Park on Wednesday.

The motion to build a new stadium passed in a 21-3 vote, and construction on the site is expected to start in less than a week.

"Today's positive City of Ottawa council vote means a beautiful new stadium and as early as 2014, a proud new franchise that will make its community proud and our league even stronger," said CFL commissioner Mark Cohon in a statement.

"This is a great day for our league and, for all of us who understand its' important place in the culture of Canada, a great day for our country," Cohon added.

The CFL said following the vote that if stadium construction remains on schedule, Ottawa will be eligible to select four redshirted NCAA players in the 2013 CFL Canadian Draft. The Ottawa franchise will have an full expansion draft in December, 2013.

The franchise is also scheduled to participate in the CFL Canadian Draft in the spring of 2014 and could begin play that same year.


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## BoulderGrad

^^What capacity? Could we see MLS Ottawa on the horizon soon too?


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## Nate

BoulderGrad said:


> ^^What capacity? Could we see MLS Ottawa on the horizon soon too?


CFL stadiums are in general larger than MLS ones, and the larger CFL field can usually accommodate a soccer field quite easily. So if the desire is there, I'm sure an MLS team can be added, although that league still looks like a pyramid scheme to me. $40 mill franchise fee when most teams aren't making money... I think television ratings have been a major disappointment for the networks that bought the rights as well, so I don't really see those being renewed without a decrease, and as we know, media deals are the lifeblood of North American sports. There are a few successful franchises, but overall it looks quite grim from the outside. I don't think it's really cracked the mainstream like they were hoping.


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## Cjones2451

They are launching a NASL team in 2014 as well. I think if that is well received they could look at it in the future, but I think that is a long way off. Capacity is supposed to be about 24,000 seats but the end zones are quite open, which is not as nice for soccer




BoulderGrad said:


> ^^What capacity? Could we see MLS Ottawa on the horizon soon too?


----------



## elly63

Ottawa OKs new football field
QMI Agency

It’s finally a done deal.

Council on Wednesday voted 21-3 in favour of signing the final agreements with the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group to redevelop Lansdowne Park.










After years of debate, legal challenges and votes, the city can begin the task of transforming the historic civic property into a sports and recreation destination.

Return of the Canadian Football League is scheduled for the 2014 season.










The redevelopment includes a renovation of Frank Clair Stadium and the Civic Centre, plus new condos, townhouses, retail stores and an urban park.

Councillors voting against the deal were Diane Deans (Gloucester-Southgate), David Chernushenko (Capital) and Diane Holmes (Somerset).

Here is the schedule ahead:

Lansdowne Park Revitalization Construction Schedule Milestones
October 2012: North Side and South Side Stands Construction Begins
Parking Garage Excavation and Site Servicing Continues
Parking Garage and Foundation for Horticulture Building Complete
July 2013: Parking Garage Substantial Completion
Majority of Site Servicing Complete
March 2014: North Side Stands Substantial Completion
June 2014: South Side Stands Substantial Completion


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## GunnerJacket

Nate said:


> So if the desire is there, I'm sure an MLS team can be added, although that league still looks like a pyramid scheme to me. $40 mill franchise fee when most teams aren't making money... I think television ratings have been a major disappointment for the networks that bought the rights as well, so I don't really see those being renewed without a decrease, and as we know, media deals are the lifeblood of North American sports. There are a few successful franchises, but overall it looks quite grim from the outside. I don't think it's really cracked the mainstream like they were hoping.


I think your comment shows a disconnect between the expectations from MLS and earnest fans versus those from everyone else. This is a marathon, not a sprint, and I've yet to meet a true MLS fan who is anything but realistic about the league's short-term potential. Growth has been incremental, but it has been real and designed around improved sustainability.

According to some press articles, MLS saw about 1/3 of it's clubs pull a profit last season. But that was before the new TV deals and more importantly the margin of deficit spending has gone down at every club except (IIRC) DC. As for TV ratings, while those remain low they have also been improving. Allowing for adjustments to the new location on the dial, as well as giving NBC's production crews some time to adjust and it's safe to say that MLS is at least growing in the positive direction as a media property and I'd be shocked if the rights fees did NOT increase. MLS is a far cry from being even just comparable to the NHL as a TV product, but it's headed that way.

If Montreal, Vancouver, KC and Philly sustain their attendance levels and budget their rosters appropriately they'll be profitable in short order. Other teams like Chicago and Dallas simply need to hone their public relations to raise attendance levels and local partnerships then they could also be profitable. San Jose should turn the corner once their new stadium is built, and if DC and NE ever get new venues...

Bottom line: MLS has an established business model that portends to long-term profitability.

- - - - - 

Glad to see Ottawa resolving their stadium issues. At the least the refurbished venue will be attractive and complete with modern amenities, and with some room to grow I think the design lends itself to exciting potential from any expansions. The more Canada's distinct metro cities all stand peer-to-peer on the sporting scene the better for Canadian sports fans, I believe. Reaffirms the notion that the culture and the economy is about more than Toronto and Montreal.


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## Calvin W

Nate said:


> CFL stadiums are in general larger than MLS ones, and the larger CFL field can usually accommodate a soccer field quite easily. So if the desire is there, I'm sure an MLS team can be added, although that league still looks like a pyramid scheme to me. $40 mill franchise fee when most teams aren't making money... I think television ratings have been a major disappointment for the networks that bought the rights as well, so I don't really see those being renewed without a decrease, and as we know, media deals are the lifeblood of North American sports. There are a few successful franchises, but overall it looks quite grim from the outside. I don't think it's really cracked the mainstream like they were hoping.


In other words the US version of the CFL?:lol:


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## Nate

Calvin W said:


> In other words the US version of the CFL?:lol:


US version of the CFL circa 1998, except the CFL has 100 years of history behind its formation. An the CFL is more realistic in its franchise fees.


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## Calvin W

Nate said:


> US version of the CFL circa 1998, except the CFL has 100 years of history behind its formation. An the CFL is more realistic in its franchise fees.


And is as profitable as a ice business in the antarctic.....:lol:


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## elly63

Calvin W said:


> And is as profitable as a ice business in the antarctic.....


Do you have proof of that? Aside from southern Ontario.

Fan support, solid revenues mean bright future for CFL

A Conference Board of Canada report on the nation’s pro sports market recently estimated the CFL generates annual revenues of between $120 million and $150 million.

To keep things in perspective, it pegged the economic impact of the nation’s six NHL franchises — not including the reborn Winnipeg Jets — with a “revenue footprint’’ in the Canadian economy of about $750 million.”

But the CFL “looks to be pretty healthy,” says Glen Hodgson, the conference board’s chief economist.

“*From the looks of it, almost everybody is making money*.”

_Postscript: I'm the one who says the Conference Board of Canada's prognostications are optimistic, so take the above with a grain of salt as to how profitable the teams are, but as long as they are profitable, that's the point._


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## elly63

Nate said:


> US version of the CFL circa 1998, except the CFL has 100 years of history behind its formation. An the CFL is more realistic in its franchise fees.


And people actually watch it on television. Speaking of which, Engraved on a Nation - The 13th Man


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## Nate

Calvin W said:


> And is as profitable as a ice business in the antarctic.....:lol:


I doubt the Flames ownership group would purchase an ice business in Antarctica. The only teams that would fall under that classification are Hamilton and Toronto, which have been the perennial p*ss poor market of the league. Some other teams have definitely struggled in the past, but the rest are now profitable and have pretty bright outlooks in their markets. 

Your attitude here is kind of reminding me of Canadian media in the 90s (and some still today, namely Rogers and some other Torono centric outfits) that find it funny/cool to put down our only professional sports league even if it is somewhat in jest/self-deprecating fashion although often it is fully genuine am spiteful. Yes, the league isn't the most financially successful around, but it has over 100 years of history in our country, has survived through some pretty major downturns, and is now thriving and growing stronger each year (league sponsorships are way up, Ottawa will be rejoining, and the previously mentioned next television deal).


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## elly63

Nate said:


> Your attitude here is kind of reminding me of Canadian media in the 90s (and some still today, namely Rogers and some other Torono centric outfits) that find it funny/cool to put down our only professional sports league even if it is somewhat in jest/self-deprecating fashion although often it is fully genuine am spiteful.


Totally agree, it was so pathetic (the writing in the 90's) like picking the wings off a butterfly or kicking someone when they're down. Just so easy to do for those who had no talent and had a ready made audience of Toronto American wannabees. 

Hey Calvin, a little tip for ya. If you're gonna troll at least try and get your facts straight at least some of the time.


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## wiedi

*new quebec arena*

new quebec arena, first renderings showed.

link to the movie (in french) http://tvasports.ca/video/1895184818001


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## Neda Say

18500 "NHL" seats for Quebec!


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## carnifex2005

Definitely a huge improvement on what was there before. Too bad the design couldn't include at least one end zone enclosed.


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## elly63

carnifex2005 said:


> Definitely a huge improvement on what was there before. Too bad the design couldn't include at least one end zone enclosed.


Grey Cup configuration in third graphic


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## elly63

New Hamilton Stadium Video


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## Cjones2451

There is also a comprehensive look at it here too

www.newstadiumnewexperience.com

Any guesses on Naming Rights?

Tim Hortons Stadium or Tim Horton Field at Ivor Wynne or something like that


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## Steeltown

Bob Young bought the naming rights for $9 million. So perhaps Red Hat Stadium?


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## Steeltown




----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> And is as profitable as a ice business in the antarctic.....:lol:


Canada and the CFL have changed a lot since you left for Australia. Perhaps you should catch up instead of relying on memories from 10 years ago.



elly63 said:


> Hey Calvin, a little tip for ya. If you're gonna troll at least try and get your facts straight at least some of the time.


He left for Australia a long time ago and his recollection of Canada is frozen to the day he left. There's a reason why many of his posts seem stuck in some weird time warp circa 1998.


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## eMKay

It's kinda boring, was expecting a little more flair. Previous proposals were better


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## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> Canada and the CFL have changed a lot since you left for Australia. Perhaps you should catch up instead of relying on memories from 10 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> He left for Australia a long time ago and his recollection of Canada is frozen to the day he left. There's a reason why many of his posts seem stuck in some weird time warp circa 1998.


Yep mate, you got it. not....hno:

Honestly making a few hundred thousand or a million or two a year is profitable? Regina would take 150 years to pay off their new planned stadium if they used the annual profits from the Riders...

Hamilton even make a profit? Winnipeg? The league as a whole could hardly pay for one new stadium let alone what is happening. Good on the CFL for doing it though.:cheers:


----------



## elly63

Plans for new Hamilton stadium unveiled
RACHEL BRADY HAMILTON Ont The Globe and Mail Oct. 12 2012

It is a facility, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats say, any city would love: A state-of-the-art CFL home field, a community legacy and a flexible venue for hosting major events such as the Grey Cup.

Friday at Ivor Wynne Stadium, during a news conference that featured school children and fireworks, officials from the 2015 Toronto Pan American Games unveiled artist renderings of the new $145.7-million facility, slated to open in the summer of 2014.

The stadium, which will be home to the Pan Am men’s and women’s soccer tournaments, will be built on a 5.45-hectare spot where Ivor Wynne currently stands. It will have a capacity of roughly 24,000 for football, with the ability to expand to 40,000.

Despite the decrease from the current building’s 29,600, “I think the capacity is perfect,” Ticats president Scott Mitchell said. “I think very quickly we would like to engage with the city to talk about putting a bid together to host the Grey Cup.”

CFL commissioner Mark Cohon, on hand for Friday’s announcement, said the size is just fine, comparing it to the reworked Frank Clair Stadium planned for the incoming Ottawa franchise.

He said when Infrastructure Ontario was working on the Hamilton designs, it consulted the CFL about what attributes would be needed for a Grey Cup game. (Hamilton last played host to the CFL title match in 1996.)

“I think an intimate smaller stadium creates a great environment for CFL football,” Cohon said.

Team owner Bob Young said that’s where the flexibility of the design comes in.

“If you can bring more seats for a Grey Cup, then it begs the question: what can you do if you happen to sell more season tickets than seats?” Young said. “As we need extra seats we can get them. Keep in mind, our average crowd is 24,000 now. If our season ticket grows big enough, don’t be surprised to find the stadium growing, too.”

The new stadium, to be renamed Hamilton Pan Am Soccer Stadium at Games time, is jointly funded by the federal government ($69.3-million), the province of Ontario ($22.3-million), and the City of Hamilton ($54.1-million).

Demolition of Ivor Wynne is to begin in December, with the goal of having the Tiger-Cats return to play for the 2014 CFL season.

Its architect called the design, “athlete-focused”. It will be rotated 90 degrees from its current configuration to run north-south and best account for sun and wind comply with FIFA stadium guidelines. It will have a large view of the Niagara Escarpment from inside the stadium and a large plaza on the south side to host events and act as a fan gathering spot. It will have 30 private suites and 700 club seats. The design plans boast superior sightlines throughout, bigger individual seats with more leg room, a world-class high-definition video board, restaurant-quality concessions and a merchandise store.

Cohon and the Ticats both said they hope to have plans concluded by season’s end regarding where the teams will play and practice in 2013 while the construction is ongoing. Cohon said the league is helping to facilitate those plans. Options for game venues reportedly include the University of Western Ontario in London, Moncton and other CFL venues, but all parties are being very tight-lipped.

“I think city council did a great job. They have a responsibility to the tax payers in this city to make sure the money is being spent responsibly,” Mitchell said. “At the end of the day, we had a stadium that was going to be a $90-million renovation or a much smaller investment by the city to get a brand new facility. It has turned out extremely well for everyone – it was a long road to get here, but a great day.”


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## koolio

eMKay said:


> It's kinda boring, was expecting a little more flair. Previous proposals were better


Boring is an understatement. Someone mentioned that it will be similar to Apogee Stadium a few days ago. I think if it were actually like Apogee Stadium, it would have indeed been much better.


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## carnifex2005

Calvin W said:


> Yep mate, you got it. not....hno:
> 
> Honestly making a few hundred thousand or a million or two a year is profitable? Regina would take 150 years to pay off their new planned stadium if they used the annual profits from the Riders...
> 
> Hamilton even make a profit? Winnipeg? The league as a whole could hardly pay for one new stadium let alone what is happening. Good on the CFL for doing it though.:cheers:


If they used the annual profits from the Riders, they'd pay it off in 35 -40 years but thanks for playing.


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## elly63

If ol' Calvin put as much thought into his posts as he does in choosing his childish emoticons (what are you twelve?) he'd be a genius. Calvin you are one lame troll.


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## elly63

Steeltown said:


> Bob Young bought the naming rights for $9 million. So perhaps Red Hat Stadium?


Where is that from? If he did I'd be more inclined to think it would be LULU.com Stadium


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## carnifex2005

elly63 said:


> Where is that from? If he did I'd be more inclined to think it would be LULU.com Stadium


Red Hat Linux. I suspect he bought the rights so he could flip it for more at a later date.


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## elly63

koolio said:


> Boring is an understatement.


I was the one posting that it would be a plain jane stadium but after looking at the actual final design for a while it is starting to grow on me. I think it is going to come together better than we think. JMO


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## elly63

carnifex2005 said:


> Red Hat Linux. I suspect he bought the rights so he could flip it for more at a later date.


LOL, I know what Red Hat is, although I'm an Ubuntu guru. Where did you get the information from, I haven't seen that posted. I could be wrong but I don't think he has had anything to do officially with Red Hat for over a decade.


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## ChesterCopperpot

koolio said:


> Boring is an understatement. Someone mentioned that it will be similar to Apogee Stadium a few days ago. I think if it were actually like Apogee Stadium, it would have indeed been much better.


One of the proposed designs that didn't win was close to the Apogee design


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## Steeltown

elly63 said:


> LOL, I know what Red Hat is, although I'm an Ubuntu guru. Where did you get the information from, I haven't seen that posted. I could be wrong but I don't think he has had anything to do officially with Red Hat for over a decade.


It was mentioned on the radio and on the news. He'll probably flip it for more money. 

If Bob Young had no problem forking over $9 million for naming rights why couldn't he contribute a penny towards the stadium? They aren't paying a single cent yet they've controlled the whole process, hijacking the City's plan for the West Harbour land. 

Would be nice if there was some kind of roof. Now there will be no protection from the sun or rain. At least with IWS you could sit or stand under the upper deck.


----------



## koolio

Steeltown said:


> It was mentioned on the radio and on the news. He'll probably flip it for more money.
> 
> If Bob Young had no problem forking over $9 million for naming rights why couldn't he contribute a penny towards the stadium? They aren't paying a single cent yet they've controlled the whole process, hijacking the City's plan for the West Harbour land.
> 
> Would be nice if there was some kind of roof. Now there will be no protection from the sun or rain. At least with IWS you could sit or stand under the upper deck.


Bob Young has ruined the franchise for decades to come. He isn't going to be the owner of the club forever. The next person who buys the team (not to mention the fans of the Ti-Cats themselves) will be stuck with an outdated stadium right off the bat. You don't get an opportunity to build a new stadium everyday in the CFL. The opportunity cost of Bob Young's selfishness is massive. It might have been better for everyone involved if the Pan Am committee decided to say "**** it" and build the stadium in Toronto instead. The Argos ownership would have known better than to look a gift horse in the mouth and Hamilton wouldn't be burdened by a crappy stadium for years to come.

There are just too many things about this stadium (even ignoring the design) that irk me greatly. The massive reduction in capacity is one of them. There is no way that reducing the capacity this much is good for the long term viability of the club. At best, it is a good decision to maximize short term profits by limiting supply but in the long term, you don't make a successful fan base by choking supply as much as possible. They should have had at least 6,000 seats in the endzones that would sell for really cheap so that more people across all walks of life will get the game day experience and potentially become life long fans of the club as a result. It is extremely sad when the fate of a civic institution like the Ti-Cats is determined so much by a selfish individual. It makes you gain a greater degree of appreciation for the Riders ownership model. Their fanbase is the in control of the destiny of their beloved club. No wonder they will end up with the best stadium in the country while Hamilton will be getting a Texas highschool stadium.


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## IllumL8ker

^^ You pay more for a stadium, you get more.

In this case it's for a cfl team and the pan am games both lower level leagues/events (although I shouldn't say that the cfl is lower level they are really coming together with staidums and growing at a good rate, but for the sake of this comment I will). You get what you pay for... a pan am event stadium and new hamilton ticats stadium. Say that again a pan am event stadium and new hamilton ticats stadium. Nothing screams at me in the sentence to build an amazing super roofed out hillbilly texas stadium.

I think the stadium screams good sports intimate environment stadium for the price what you can build a pan am event stadium and new hamilton ticats stadium IN CANADA. You are going to get what you pay for, considering your in canada and that's again a pan am event stadium and new hamilton ticats stadium. Remind you it's more expensive to build stadiums/arenas in Canada, more expensive to build anything for that matter in Canada.

The stadium reminds me of BMO field in Toronto and I like that stadium, so I like this one. Everyone has a good view in this stadium, I just love the look and feel of it, very sports friendly

In this pic here you can really have the sense of a good sports environment. It's the view you would have if you where on ground walking to the stadium. You people who know nothing about sports save your breath because I am sure you hate it :lol:.









But ya I think they did a good job on putting this design together (considering your building in populous and developed Ontario) it has room to expand in the future no need to tear it down unless like 35 years from now... up to or around that time they could refurbish it and add a roof and enclose the end zones. Was it the best design, I don't know... We might never know. But we do know this is what they are going with and I think it does the trick, for now.


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## isaidso

IllumL8ker said:


> ^^ You pay more for a stadium, you get more.


But this is many notches below what's happening elsewhere in the league and isn't going to help the image of the league one little bit in southern Ontario. This stadium design is a major fail. They could have had this:















*Are You Kidding Me?* hno:


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## IllumL8ker

^^ Where is the room for expanding?? What another 15 years (when the cfl will be really expanding) and you have to start from scratch all over again and go through everything else all over again. Read my post again before posting ignorant statements you only quoted that one little part. 

AND If this design was so good why didn't they pick it mr are you kidding me & head shake? It's because the overall plan was less than spectacular. 

These people make big decisions everyday and they made the right call.


----------



## carnifex2005

Also, Hamilton never would have made anything close to what was in that West Harbour render for the money the stadium cost. It was a huge pipe dream. Basically the new Ivor Wynne looks pretty much like the new Ottawa stadium without the roof. That seems about right for the total cost of the stadium.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

isaidso said:


> But this is many notches below what's happening elsewhere in the league and isn't going to help the image of the league one little bit in southern Ontario. This stadium design is a major fail. They could have had this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Are You Kidding Me?* hno:


Do you know how much that design would have costed? 

I do - over $250 million!!!!

The city of Hamilton had trouble enough stumping up for their share of what they got - and that was 54 million. No way they were stumping up over 100million


----------



## elly63

Steeltown said:


> It was mentioned on the radio and on the news. He'll probably flip it for more money. If Bob Young had no problem forking over $9 million for naming rights


I can't find any reference to this. Can you help me find something in print where it says he bought the naming rights.


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> But this is many notches below what's happening elsewhere in the league and isn't going to help the image of the league one little bit in southern Ontario. This stadium design is a major fail.


You're blowing this way out of proportion. The stadium you posted never came closer to reality than a design on paper. And just looking at it, the design would have cost big bucks. 

As I am learning more about the new stadium, it seems to have kept the fan in mind while also respecting the stadium's construction budget. It should be easily expandable and according to caretaker Bob will grow along with the season ticket base like Montreal. I don't believe this will be as "bare bones" as BMO. There's nothing here that deserves as much criticism as some are leveling.


----------



## elly63

koolio said:


> Bob Young has ruined the franchise for decades to come. He isn't going to be the owner of the club forever. The next person who buys the team (not to mention the fans of the Ti-Cats themselves) will be stuck with an outdated stadium right off the bat. You don't get an opportunity to build a new stadium everyday in the CFL. The opportunity cost of Bob Young's selfishness is massive.


Disagree with almost everything in this post. Have you forgotten who owned the team before Bob Young... the league, and they owned Toronto as well. People aren't exactly lining up to buy the two southern Ontario franchises (the achilles heel of the otherwise doing well league). Outdated stadium? Huh? Why, because you don't like the design and it has a smaller capacity? There are more revenue making opportunities with the new stadium than the dump they're in.



koolio said:


> It might have been better for everyone involved if the Pan Am committee decided to say "**** it" and build the stadium in Toronto instead. The Argos ownership would have known better than to look a gift horse in the mouth and Hamilton wouldn't be burdened by a crappy stadium for years to come.


Apparently, you've also forgotten how former Argos owners Cynamon and Sokolowski screwed up big time and walked out on their stadium deal with York because they were given a sweetheart deal with the RC because they had to fill dates in the now no longer popular venue. They could have had a little pain for long term gain but they chose the easy route and blew the foreseeable future of the Argos.



koolio said:


> There are just too many things about this stadium (even ignoring the design) that irk me greatly. The massive reduction in capacity is one of them. There is no way that reducing the capacity this much is good for the long term viability of the club. At best, it is a good decision to maximize short term profits by limiting supply but in the long term, you don't make a successful fan base by choking supply as much as possible. They should have had at least 6,000 seats in the endzones that would sell for really cheap so that more people across all walks of life will get the game day experience and potentially become life long fans of the club as a result. It is extremely sad when the fate of a civic institution like the Ti-Cats is determined so much by a selfish individual. It makes you gain a greater degree of appreciation for the Riders ownership model. Their fanbase is the in control of the destiny of their beloved club. No wonder they will end up with the best stadium in the country while Hamilton will be getting a Texas highschool stadium.


Gimme a break. What was the average attendance in 2011? *23,676*. And it seems the capacity for the new stadium is around 24,000 (according to Young) the 22,500 seats plus the patio/party areas. Yes, let build a 40,000 seat stadium and have 16,000 empty seats. Yeah Bob Young is selfish all right, he's been making money hand over fist there for the past decade. Watch the video, Young says the stadium will grow along with the fanbase.

The Ottawa fanbase is in control of their destiny? Where did you dig that up? Jeff Hunt has his work cut out for him to get back the longtime loyal 15,000 (his words) fanbase and then grow 10,000 new fans. Best stadium in the country? Good gravy man, Vancouver, Winnipeg and Regina are second best to Ottawa? Architecturally there isn't a whole lot they can do with one stand (new seats and fabric roof) and the only feature that separates the Ottawa stadium from Hamilton is the funky wooden veil and view of the canal.


----------



## elly63

The big reveal
$145.7-million stadium features private boxes, wider seats and community access

*The specs*

• North-south orientation
• Permanent seating for 22,500 people (Ivor Wynne seats 30,000)
• Ability to expand to 40,000 for Grey Cup games
• 700 club seats
• 20 VIP suites
• 5.45-hectare footprint
• 180 parking spots (400 spots available at the current venue)
• Six elevators
• General admission seats are 21 inches wide; club seats are 22 inches and VIP seats are 24 inches wide — wider than industry standard
• Concession stands on all levels of the stadium
• Several hundred LED televisions to be installed in the concourses, washrooms and hospitality areas
• Meets international requirements for FIFA soccer and CFL football

*The Money*

• Overall cost is $145.7 million
• $119.1 to be spent on the stadium construction and design
• $26.6 million to be spent on “soft costs” such as project management, transaction fees and a contingency fund
• City contributing $54.3 million
• Province contributing $22.3 million
• Federal government paying the remaining $69.1 million
• Ticats to pay city $450,000 a year in rental costs

*The Deal*

• Consortium called Ontario Sports Solutions (comprised of Bouygues Building Canada Inc., Kenaidan Contracting Ltd., and several other companies) won bid over two other pre-qualified competitors
• Deal also includes design and build of Town of Milton’s velodrome and York University stadium
• Price and completion dates fixed and written into the contract

*The community*

• Stadium to host about 1,400 hours of community use per year, including soccer, football, concerts and other community events
• Features public fitness and change rooms
• Designed to allow maximum sunlight on now-shadowed neighbouring streets
• Designed to minimize noise levels for neighbours
• Designed to meet barrier-free guidelines

*The next steps*

• A site plan for the new stadium has yet to be filed with the city. That document will outline the exact specifications of the stadium and give the city a chance to review whether it meets its design guidelines.
• Ontario Sports Solutions, the firm in charge of building the new stadium, will take possession of the property on Dec. 1.
• The demolition and construction will begin immediately after the stadium is cleared.
• The estimated completion date is 2014, a year before the Pan Am Games.
• The Ticats have yet to announce where they will play during the stadium construction in 2013.


----------



## Welkin

carnifex2005 said:


> If they used the annual profits from the Riders, they'd pay it off in 35 -40 years but thanks for playing.



Actually the Riders could never pay off the note on their $300,000,000 stadium even if you gave them a thousand years. In 2012 the Riders made a profit of $3.8 million. On a $300,000,000 loan, just the interest on a low 3% loan would be $9 million per year. The Riders could never pay down the interest, much less any part of the principal. In order to pay off their new stadium in 40 years, the Riders would have to make annual payments of $13.3 million. That would mean that they would have to find a whole lot of new revenue someplace.

Let's face it, there is not a CFL team that could afford even the most basic stadium on their own. If the Riders used every last penny of profit, it would be next to impossible for them to pay off even a $70 million stadium in 30 years. No privately owned CFL team can afford to build their own stadium (which explains Toronto's lack of a new facility) and every team is dependent upon what their fans/local government are willing to spend. Hamilton got lucky getting a stadium this nice (thank you PanAm Games) because I don't believe that Ontario and Hamilton would have ever spent enough money to build a decent new stadium.


----------



## koolio

elly63 said:


> Disagree with almost everything in this post. Have you forgotten who owned the team before Bob Young... the league, and they owned Toronto as well. People aren't exactly lining up to buy the two southern Ontario franchises (the achilles heel of the otherwise doing well league). Outdated stadium? Huh? Why, because you don't like the design and it has a smaller capacity? There are more revenue making opportunities with the new stadium than the dump they're in.
> 
> Apparently, you've also forgotten how former Argos owners Cynamon and Sokolowski screwed up big time and walked out on their stadium deal with York because they were given a sweetheart deal with the RC because they had to fill dates in the now no longer popular venue. They could have had a little pain for long term gain but they chose the easy route and blew the foreseeable future of the Argos.
> 
> Gimme a break. What was the average attendance in 2011? *23,676*. And it seems the capacity for the new stadium is around 24,000 (according to Young) the 22,500 seats plus the patio/party areas. Yes, let build a 40,000 seat stadium and have 16,000 empty seats. Yeah Bob Young is selfish all right, he's been making money hand over fist there for the past decade. Watch the video, Young says the stadium will grow along with the fanbase.
> 
> The Ottawa fanbase is in control of their destiny? Where did you dig that up? Jeff Hunt has his work cut out for him to get back the longtime loyal 15,000 (his words) fanbase and then grow 10,000 new fans. Best stadium in the country? Good gravy man, Vancouver, Winnipeg and Regina are second best to Ottawa? Architecturally there isn't a whole lot they can do with one stand (new seats and fabric roof) and the only feature that separates the Ottawa stadium from Hamilton is the funky wooden veil and view of the canal.


I don't care who owned the stadium prior to Bob Young. We are supposed to bow down to him till eternity for his supposed act of generosity of purchasing the team irrespective of what he does afterwards? Fact is that he hijacked a perfectly good proposal put forth by the city and the province and made it so that his voice drowned out everyone else's, despite the fact that he wasn't even pitching in with his own money. He nearly jeopardized the entire Pan Am games setup too. Not to mention that he has also jeopardized one whole season of the Ti-Cats where they won't have any place to play their home games. 

And I'm well aware of what the previous ownership group did with the proposed stadium deal at York University in Toronto. However, at least they bailed out of the deal rather than hijack it to suit their specific needs and the outcome of that was much better for the residents of Toronto as they got a better, soccer specific stadium in a better location. On the other hand, due to Bob Young's selfishness, Hamiltonians were denied a stadium in a much better location that also would have helped kickstart greater civic revival projects around the stadium. 

And I don't know how reducing the capacity by so much while leaving the endzones completely empty can be considered a sensible move. Fact is that getting as many people into the stadium is indeed important in the long term. Probably more important than tightly controlling the number of seats to maximize gameday to gameday revenue. So far in this poor season, Hamilton is averaging more than 25,000, with a high of 31,000 during the Labour Day game. Even if the capacity of the new stadium is 24,000, I've yet to see any team in the world build a new stadium where the maximum capacity of a new facility will be lower than the average attendance the season prior. And I'm sure they'll be looking at expanding the stadium sometime in the future. I'm also sure that they'll be looking to get the city to pay for the costs of that too. So from the standpoint of anyone who is not Bob Young, I don't know why that should be considered good news. In addition, people mentioning as to how anything remotely better than current proposal would have cost taxpayers so much more should realize that due to Bob Young, the organizers were forced to start building a separate athletics facility at York University that they weren't looking to do so to begin with. If the $50 million that is being spent on that project were instead allocated to the Hamilton project, a much better design would have indeed been possible.

And I'm not sure why you thought I was referring to a team that hasn't existed in nearly two decades as opposed to a team that just recently announced their new stadium plans. If you're still wondering, I was referring to the Saskatchewan Roughriders.


----------



## koolio

elly63 said:


> The big reveal
> $145.7-million stadium features private boxes, wider seats and community access


Read the comments of resident Hamiltonians at the bottom of the page that you've linked to. To a man, not a single poster there is excited about this project. As a former resident of the city of Hamilton, I completely agree with their sentiments. It is extremely disheartening to see a project that would have been unambiguously better for a city down on its luck to be derailed by one man's greed.


----------



## Welkin

elly63 said:


> Apparently, you've also forgotten how former Argos owners Cynamon and Sokolowski screwed up big time and walked out on their stadium deal with York because they were given a sweetheart deal with the RC because they had to fill dates in the now no longer popular venue. They could have had a little pain for long term gain but they chose the easy route and blew the foreseeable future of the Argos.


I agree with you that they screwed up with the York Stadium, but in all honesty, Cynamon and Sokolowski were not as wealthy as they pretended (remember that David Braley even had to loan them the money to purchase the Argos) and the Argos portion of the York stadium was $20 million plus any cost overages. They jumped at the RC deal because they simply could not get the $20+ million needed for the York stadium.


----------



## elly63

koolio said:


> And I'm not sure why you thought I was referring to a team that hasn't existed in nearly two decades as opposed to a team that just recently announced their new stadium plans. If you're still wondering, I was referring to the Saskatchewan Roughriders.


My mistake, but I still disagree with the rest of your post especially the Young vendetta. And as you know, the saga about the new Frank Clair stadium is finally over and shovels will be in the ground soon. That's why I had it in mind.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

koolio said:


> Read the comments of resident Hamiltonians at the bottom of the page that you've linked to. To a man, not a single poster there is excited about this project. As a former resident of the city of Hamilton, I completely agree with their sentiments. It is extremely disheartening to see a project that would have been unambiguously better for a city down on its luck to be derailed by one man's greed.


Reading comments on the Hamilton Spec site is worse than reading youtube comments to be fair.

At the end of the day - what could the city afford? 
Is this the best design they could get for what they could afford?


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## elly63

ChesterCopperpot said:


> Is this the best design they could get for what they could afford?


The answer is most likely, yes. Now, it's time to get on with it. There are still people talking about West Harbour etc, let it go, almost getting as bad as the over excessive Ottawa navel gazing.

It's over, that's the winning design and they've chosen the site, case closed.


----------



## elly63

elly63 said:


> New Hamilton Stadium Video


You know I wonder how many of the haterz have actually watched the concept of this stadium as shown in the video. When I "heard" about the proposed drawings for this stadium I am the first to admit I was underwhelmed, even comparing it to CanadInns and Mosaic. The drawings don't do it as much justice as does the video. I'm liking it more and more for what's inside and not just one wide render snapshot everyone seems to have etched in their mind.

And I'm really diggin' the score written for the video, not your usual industrial film fare. Almost Robin Hood like, robbing from the taxpayers to give to the poor "Young". Thought I'd say it before one of the haterz.


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## elly63

Just to start some more conversation the YTD attendance totals for the Argos is 23215 and the TiCats 25224. Now remember what Scott Mitchell said, the 22,500 (24,000) seat stadium is what IO will deliver. There is nothing (aside from money) keeping the city or the Cats from doing something to add to that number down the road.

Actually both attendances would be higher if the preseason games were averaged in (although one Argos pre season crowd was comps for kids)

The Argos last two crowds were over 25,000 so things are getting better. Aside from the comps for kids Braley doesn't paper the crowd. That's not to say previous ownership didn't. Toronto attendance fluctuates wildly. With the new revenue streams and low rent and climbing attendances Braley should be ok this year. From 1990 to 2007 the Argos have had 5 seasons in the 30K range and 8 in the teens. The numbers are all over the place, Toronto loves a winner.


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## isaidso

elly63 said:


> You're blowing this way out of proportion. The stadium you posted never came closer to reality than a design on paper. And just looking at it, the design would have cost big bucks.


It's still a couple notches below what's happening elsewhere in the league. The league has an image problem in southern Ontario. This is a where a major league looking stadium was needed most. If they don't have the money that's fine, but there's also a price to be paid for that long term.

In this context, I don't think people are blowing things out of proportion. People realize how critical it is to get this one right.


----------



## GunnerJacket

elly63 said:


>


It's nice to see that stadium is being upgraded in a cost efficient manner, and hopefully future expansions will help it find more character. My one detraction stems from this image above: Second tiers that don't match the length of the first just look cheap. I'd rather see a much shallower tier that runs the course of the whole side and is conducive to future expansion upward than to see this. It feels like they wanted a legit tier but could only afford 3/4 of it!

I agree with the idea of right-sizing - Better to be 22k sold out than have the larger venue with 5k seats going unsold. Just wish the design of that seating could a little more polished. At least the opposite side has the staircasing to close off the ends and look decidedly intentional.

Other than that I'm thrilled to see Canada fostering more and more updated venues. Good for the CFL!


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## ChesterCopperpot

FWIW - the other proposed Hamilton designs had endzone seating


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## elly63

My fellows, Hamilton is gonna be alright. Caretaker Bob put a fair amount into Ivor Wynne to improve the experience and visual optics, the new stadium will be the same. We honestly don't know what kind of amenities and extras there are going to be judging from a few renders. 

I'm hoping the proposed ideas shown in the video come to fruition. It ain't that bad. 

My last point, why is it now vogue foe everyone to compare facilities (especially Hamilton) with a Texas high school stadium. One is constructed with union labour the other likely with cheap labour from (well... do the geography). One has the widest seats in NA the other has benches. One has several hundred video screens all over the stadium, VIP suites (20:1), concessions etc etc


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## Cjones2451

I looked at the video again and it looks like from my perspective that they could put a roof on the one side with the large columns on the upper decks that say 'TICATS' down them. It seems to me that they could add a roof over that section and have one covered section for not too much more money (they do have a $25-30 contingency fund too). 
Overall, I think it is not a nice as IGF in Winnipeg, but way nicer than BMO and what they currently have and I think it can easily be expanded when demand is for more the 24K every game.



elly63 said:


> My fellows, Hamilton is gonna be alright. Caretaker Bob put a fair amount into Ivor Wynne to improve the experience and visual optics, the new stadium will be the same. We honestly don't know what kind of amenities and extras there are going to be judging from a few renders.
> 
> I'm hoping the proposed ideas shown in the video come to fruition. It ain't that bad.
> 
> My last point, why is it now vogue foe everyone to compare facilities (especially Hamilton) with a Texas high school stadium. One is constructed with union labour the other likely with cheap labour from (well... do the geography). One has the widest seats in NA the other has benches. One has several hundred video screens all over the stadium, VIP suites (20:1), concessions etc etc


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## isaidso

Hamilton stadium: What's the rationale for having 3 tiers of seating on one side and 2 differently sized tiers on the other? If they ever want to loop the tiers around the north end zone to form a horseshoe they're not going to match up. 

I'd much prefer to see the 3 tier design on both sides and the 1st tier below grade and wrapped around both end zones.


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## ChesterCopperpot

I don't think there is the need for another 30 executive suites and club seats on the other side


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## Neda Say

^^Who said there was a need for more of these!? Having a consistant three tier design would make tying things a bit easier when it comes to future development. And if there's no need for more suites which is completely true. I'm sure that panoramic restaurants and bars, meeting points and or a pro shop would be a plus.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Neda Say said:


> ^^Who said there was a need for more of these!? Having a consistant three tier design would make tying things a bit easier when it comes to future development. And if there's no need for more suites which is completely true. I'm sure that panoramic restaurants and bars, meeting points and or a pro shop would be a plus.


Well the middle tier of the three tier side is all club seats and executive suites. There is a TiCats merchandise shop within the new building as well.


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## Marvo

Image from Bluebombers Website

Do you think the white dots are markings for yard lines and endzones? If so this end zone does one of those stupid angles at the end .... come on, build a stadium that at least fits the dimensions of the playing surface.


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## isaidso

^^ I'd be stunned if they actually do something arsine like that. 



ChesterCopperpot said:


> Well the middle tier of the three tier side is all club seats and executive suites. There is a TiCats merchandise shop within the new building as well.


He's saying that the middle tier on the other side doesn't have to be club seats or executive suites.


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## ChesterCopperpot

I'm not sure why it has to be identical on both sides - Soldier Field isn't and it looks fine


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

So - Fort Erie is getting a 65,000 capacity NASCAR track

http://www.thespec.com/news/ontario/article/831245--nascar-coming-to-ontario


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## Bossman1

ChesterCopperpot said:


> So - Fort Erie is getting a 65,000 capacity NASCAR track
> 
> http://www.thespec.com/news/ontario/article/831245--nascar-coming-to-ontario


Another build it on the cheap facility in Ontario.
For all the economic might the province likes to say about itself, when it comes to stadiums lately, they do sure cheap out.
A track plus 65,000 for for $150M - good luck. Another lego BMO or Hamilton type stadium coming to Fort Erie.


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## carnifex2005

Bossman1 said:


> Another build it on the cheap facility in Ontario.
> For all the economic might the province likes to say about itself, when it comes to stadiums lately, they do sure cheap out.
> A track plus 65,000 for for $150M - good luck. Another lego BMO or Hamilton type stadium coming to Fort Erie.


It's being built with all private money. The government of Ontario has nothing to do with this other than providing infrastructure improvements.


----------



## Scba

For non-NASCAR fans out there, I'll translate: this is great. A problem racing has had over the past decade or two is that every track built is basically a clone of each other, a 1.5 mile tri-oval. The exception is one in Iowa, which I believe is 3/4 mile, or a mile, or something like that, and the drivers and fans love it. They continue to add dates to it in various series each year. So building something new that breaks the mold, if only slightly, is good news, and the place shouldn't have a problem finding a few races.


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## isaidso

^^ I'm not familiar with NASCAR, but isn't 65,000 considered small for a circuit? I know Formula 1 and Indy are typically over 100,000. I imagine NASCAR is as well.



ChesterCopperpot said:


> I'm not sure why it has to be identical on both sides - Soldier Field isn't and it looks fine


Soldier Field can get away with it. Stadia usually look better with identical stands.


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## Neda Say

This track is not for NASCAR Sprint Cup but more logically NASCAR Canadian Tire, Nationwide, Trucks or Arca series. 65,000 would be a very small event for a series that does count a few facilities able to host in excess of 200,000 people on race day ( Indy, Daytona, Charlotte...)


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## Scba

Yes, 65,000 is likely too small for a full-fledged Cup race, but not for anything else. Attendance for most tracks in general is down, 100k certainly isn't a requirement, and most average beneath it or have a capacity beneath it. All those other series mentioned above would work, and that's plenty. Plus testing sessions, exhibitions, racing schools, etc


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## isaidso

Do people in southern Ontario follow auto racing that's not Formula 1 or Indy? :dunno:


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## Scba

Hardly anyone anywhere follows Indy any more.


----------



## Nate

The petitioners in Regina fell well short of the needed 20,000 signatures to force a referendum. So it looks like things will be proceeding in Regina. 

I believe the schedule is that the city will send out a RFP before the new year, and site prep/construction will begin next year. Completion by 2017; can't wait.


----------



## isaidso

^^ Good news. The _'I don't want a stadium so you can't have one either'_ crowd. What a selfish bunch of pricks they were. 



Scba said:


> Hardly anyone anywhere follows Indy any more.


Really? I guess I haven't paid attention for a number of years. I guess in Canada, Formula 1 reigns supreme.


----------



## Scba

I didn't even know F1 was all that popular in Canada. Assumed NASCAR/CASCAR/Canadian Tire was largest.


----------



## Nate

Scba said:


> I didn't even know F1 was all that popular in Canada. Assumed NASCAR/CASCAR/Canadian Tire was largest.


To be honest, I don't know anyone that follows any of the racing circuits.


----------



## Neda Say

Scba said:


> I didn't even know F1 was all that popular in Canada. Assumed NASCAR/CASCAR/Canadian Tire was largest.


Uh I just got back into the country but I have to say no to that assumption! In the past I would have said F1 was #1, Indy/Champcar #2, Nascar #3,
Indycar is only a ghost of what it really was. Nascar was fun for a while before getting boring... F1 would probably require another canadian driver in a competitive car to make headlines again. 

Why would any one build an oval able to host 65,000 beats the heck out of me. But I guess they had a solid business plan of holding a few week ends of racing at the track!


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## isaidso

^^ I agree that F1 is yearning for another Canadian contender. It just hasn't been the same without Jacques Villeneuve. He was one of the most recognizable figures in Canadian sport when he was racing F1. 



Scba said:


> I didn't even know F1 was all that popular in Canada. Assumed NASCAR/CASCAR/Canadian Tire was largest.


Amongst auto racing fans, Formula 1 has long dominated Canada and dates back to 1961. Indy started to make inroads about 20 years ago while NASCAR has been largely a foreign curiosity and considered rather low brow. CASCAR/Canadian Tire are specks by comparison.

That said, the big race in Canada is and has always been the Canadian Grand Prix in Montreal. It brings in the biggest television audience, largest crowds, and most national coverage. The 3 day attendance is usually over 300,000 and brings in thousands of fans from across Canada and the United States. Indy seems to be big just in the cities that host Indy races and now fallen off as people have mentioned.

Formula 1, is by far, the dominant auto racing circuit in Canada. Nothing else comes close. Is there even any NASCAR race in Canada? :dunno:


*Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve:*_ Ile Notre Dame, Montreal_









Courtesy of Sutton Images


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## Scba

Yeah, there was an annual Nationwide race at Montreal (above), but starting next year they're going to be at some other road circuit in Quebec, and I think the Truck series is going to race somewhere else in Canada starting next year as well.


----------



## isaidso

I see. I honestly don't know anything about NASCAR other than its very popular in the US south. More options are usually preferable and its certainly a different kind of auto racing than F1.


----------



## cormiermax

I know that F1 beats out NASCAR in the east, NASCAR has a ******* stigma to it here.


----------



## isaidso

I thought NASCAR had a ******* stigma everywhere.


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## Neda Say

isaidso said:


> I thought NASCAR had a ******* stigma everywhere.


^^So did I, actually still do!


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## elly63

Selling naming rights could help fund renovations at McMahon Stadium
Vicki Hall, Calgary Herald November 1, 2012

Faced with what is on the verge of becoming the most antiquated facility in the Canadian Football League, the Calgary Stampeders intend to embark on up to $15 million of renovations to McMahon Stadium.

“It needs the most basic of work,” Ken King, president of the parent Calgary Flames, said Wednesday night. “The stuff we’re talking about would be hard to describe as upgrades. It would be closer to describe it as minimalist needs, and then we go from there.

“It’s for the fans. It’s the kind of stuff that will make the moving around a little easier and that type of thing.”

The renovations could start as early as next year and will focus mainly on the bathrooms and other basic amenities.

Details of the funding still need to be worked out, King said, but one possibility is selling the naming rights to McMahon Stadium.

The University of Calgary controls those rights, and the Stamps plan to have private discussions with the family of the late George and Frank McMahon about exploring this new line of fundraising.

“That could be a potential source of revenue to help facilitate the basic renovations,” said King, president of the Calgary Flames Limited Partnership, which acquired a majority share of the Stampeders in March.

“We’ve been talking to the university about that, but we have not talked to the McMahon family as of yet.”

No matter what, King said, the McMahon name would still be prominent at Calgary’s home for professional football.

Back in 1960, George and Frank McMahon — two of the city’s legendary oilmen — sparked the construction of the new home for the Calgary Stampeders. They put up $300,000 themselves and guaranteed another $750,000 in debentures.

In 1985, the U of C assumed full ownership of the stadium and the land. The facility is also home to the U of C Dinos and the Calgary Colts.

*“Minor renovations is what we’re talking about today, and then major renovations — which are very significant — will hopefully take place in the future,” King said. “A real renovation — a $100 million renovation, that kind of thing — is where you would go at some point. Or you would replace it, and I think replacing it would be a long shot.”*

The CFL is in the midst of an infrastructure boom with Winnipeg set to unveil a new stadium next season, a complete rebuild set to get underway in Hamilton and a new $278-million facility in the works in Regina. BC Place Stadium in Vancouver was completely renovated last year.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

http://www.blogto.com/city/2012/11/that_time_when_toronto_went_stadium_crazy/


----------



## isaidso

I like the shape of the stands at McMahon as well as the sight lines. Perhaps Calgary can achieve what Green Bay and Chicago did with their football stadia. I can't see anything major happening for 3-4 seasons though.


----------



## carnifex2005

TICATS TO PLAY 2013 SEASON AT UNIVERSITY OF GUELPH

It appears the Hamilton Tiger-Cats have found a home for the 2013 season.

According to the Hamilton Spectator, the Tiger-Cats will play most, if not all of their home games at the University of Guelph next season while a new stadium is built on the grounds of Ivor Wynne Stadium. The announcement could be made official as early as Tuesday.

Alumni Stadium in Guelph has recently undergone an $18 million renovation and, with temporary seating, could reach a capacity of 15,000. Guelph is a 40-minute drive from Hamilton.

Ron Joyce Stadium in Hamilton, home of the McMaster Marauders of the CIS and the Tiger-Cats during training camp, was not made available to the team.



















And here's a bit more info why some think this is a good temp move for the Ti-Cats.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

intoronto1125 posted this over at Urban Toronto - the Track and Field facility at York University


----------



## Cjones2451

*Landsdowne Park*

The crane is in place to start building the Southside stands. After all the legal BS, will be great to see the CFL and NASL there in 2014


----------



## isaidso

It's been an excruciatingly tiring process. One more season and we'll be back up to 9 teams in the CFL. :cheers1:


----------



## elly63

Jeff Hunt knows new Ottawa CFL team can't ignore key markets
TIM BAINES, QMI Agency

TORONTO - Parlez-vous football?

Ottawa’s CFL team will get it right this time. They don’t plan on putting on blinders when it comes to the francophone market ... and they’re certainly not stupid enough to ignore football fans in the Valley.

“There are 250,000-300,000 people living in (the Gatineau market) and they’re as close to Lansdowne as people in Kanata are,” said Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group’s Jeff Hunt. “It would be a tremendous mistake not to give that market your full attention and priority. It’s right in our wheelhouse. Hopefully, we’ll win fans over.

“The Valley is an absolute no-brainer, that is part of our marketing with the 67’s. We played an exhibition game in Smiths Falls and we played one in Rockland. If you take the Valley and Gatineau into account, it’s a big market. To not include them in any football marketing would be a big mistake.”

No question, there is plenty of football interest across the pond. But many of the fans are attached to the Montreal Alouettes. Not a problem, says Hunt.

“If they want to come and cheer for the Alouettes, that’s great,” said Hunt. “You get into that situation with the Senators when they face the Leafs or the Canadiens.

“People may wish the whole crowd is cheering for the hometown team, but what people really remember is the building is packed and it’s a great atmosphere.

“If we’re able to convert some of those people cheering for the Alouettes, all the better. The Alouettes only come to town once, we’re in town nine times a year. So certainly it would be in our best interests if the Alouette fans in Gatineau would find a way to adopt Ottawa as their favourite team and come to almost all the games.”


----------



## elly63

Frank Clair Stadium reno work starts Monday
Jon Willing October 26, 2012

Frank Clair Stadium’s makeover will begin next week.

The city says Pomerleau, the construction contractor on the Lansdowne Park redevelopment, will begin demolishing the roof over the north-side stands and removing the seats. Excavation work for the south-side stands will also begin.

To reduce truck traffic to Lansdowne, there will be a temporary concrete “plant” built on site.

The Eddie Friel Building, which is west of the south-side stands and housed a locker room and workout equipment, will also be demolished.

New construction fencing will mean no more access to public parking along Bank St.


----------



## isaidso

elly63 said:


> [
> Ottawa’s CFL team will get it right this time. They don’t plan on putting on blinders when it comes to the francophone market ... and they’re certainly not stupid enough to ignore football fans in the Valley.


Sounds like this management team has their head screwed on straight. Metropolitan Ottawa is the same size as Edmonton and Calgary. There's no reason why this franchise can't one day pull in big crowds like those 2 teams. 

I suppose we can expect a team name that works in both English and French. I came up with 3: the _*Ottawa Gatineau*_, the _*Ottawa Nationals*_, or the _*Ottawa 76*_ as a nod to the Ottawa Rough Riders who were founded in 1876.

Anglophones could call them the 76'ers, but what is the french version of that? What do you guys think?


----------



## Neda Say

Le (ou les) 76 d'Ottawa... ça sonne pas trop mais bon! 
It doesn't sound much but why not!

A graft always takes time to take. 

Now I'd like to look forward to the 10th team as I think this league will only become really viable when we'll reach the "magic" 12 teams. 
Ottawa is a must. Now the real question is what city will become the tenth market of the CFL.


----------



## Calvin W

Ottawa Poutine


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## isaidso

Neda Say said:


> Le (ou les) 76 d'Ottawa... ça sonne pas trop mais bon!
> It doesn't sound much but why not!
> 
> A graft always takes time to take.
> 
> Now I'd like to look forward to the 10th team as I think this league will only become really viable when we'll reach the "magic" 12 teams.
> Ottawa is a must. Now the real question is what city will become the tenth market of the CFL.


Les Soixant-seize d'Ottawa en francais et the Seventy-Sixers in English. I like it! How about something like this:

*Replace 'Union product' with 'Ottawa' and 'Gasoline' with 'Football'*









I agree about the need for more teams, but I'd rather the league wait till other cities are ready to host a CFL team than go down market. The 10th will most certainly be in either Quebec City of Halifax. Both will likely happen before we see a 6th team in the West. Sorry Moncton, but you're just too damn small.


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> Les Soixant-seize d'Ottawa en francais et the Seventy-Sixers in English. I like it! How about something like this:
> 
> I agree about the need for more teams, but I'd rather the league wait till other cities are ready to host a CFL team than go down market. The 10th will most certainly be in either Quebec City of Halifax. Both will likely happen before we see a 6th team in the West. Sorry Moncton, but you're just too damn small.


Doubt you'll see 76ers as a name as it would create brand confusion with the NBA team. Hunt is very aware of such things. There is still a great attachment to the iconic "R". 










Rivermen is being floated as a popular choice.

As for Moncton being too small, it is within a two/two and a half hour drive of SJ, Freddy Beach, PEI, Northern NB and Halifax. That is a lot of people a whole lot closer than they are in Regina. It is a fast growing area. If you would have mentioned Moncton ten years ago, I would say you would have been crazy but I wouldn't say that now. Moncton and Halifax virtually switched identities. Moncton is now the place to go and Halifax has become stagnant, although the new mayor of Halifax may be looking to change that with talk of a new stadium.

The problem with Moncton is lack of history of big time football (no local university program but high school football is popular) and a lack of ownership candidates. If they were able to get one owner what if he wanted to sell?

A tenth team in the CFL is a long, long, long way away and Commish Cohon prudently has never stated otherwise.


----------



## elly63

Investors Group Field construction photos from the week of November 26-30, 2012


----------



## koolio

10th team - Quebec City
11th team - Maritimes
12th team - Victoria

Get this done by 2020 Cohon!


----------



## Neda Say

koolio said:


> 10th team - Quebec City
> 11th team - Maritimes
> 12th team - Victoria
> 
> Get this done by 2020 Cohon!



I agree with the overall idea, I just want to move the deadline forward by at least 2 years. Not really realistic I know but one might ask for the impossible if one want things to be realized.


----------



## elly63

While people here seem to think it is a good idea to pick an area and assign a team to it, the problem with that is there really is no call for a team in that area. 

Quebec is quite happy with their college program at Laval and while the people of Moncton might think it would be great to have a team, there isn't a public groundswell to get one (aside from Mayor LeBlanc schmoozing), nor is there in Halifax where there is hardly enough impetus to build a stadium. I can't speak for Victoria but there doesn't seem to be much news coming out of there.

Look how long it has taken Ottawa to start moving, and that is with very dedicated ownership. There was significant enough negativity and NIMBYism to stall that project for years, the other cities haven't even got to that stage yet.

I wouldn't hold my breath for any new franchises any time soon.


----------



## isaidso

^^ The mayor of Halifax is on record as saying that a stadium is a matter of when not if and that it will get under way during his term. Whether they understand that a Moncton style stadium is not going to cut it is another story. 



elly63 said:


> Doubt you'll see 76ers as a name as it would create brand confusion with the NBA team.


I don't think the use of a name from a foreign league should have any bearing. There is no brand confusion between the BC Lions and Detroit Lions. People know which one is being talked about. I do like the 'R' and old helmet, but not a fan of 'Rivermen' at all.

I've heard the arguments about Moncton. There are about 30 pages of discussion about it on SSP. As a former Maritimer, I'd eventually like to see both a team in Halifax and one in NB. If Manitoba and Saskatchewan can each have a team so can these 2 provinces which are only marginally smaller. Btw, Mt. Allison is the local collegiate team in Moncton. It's technically not in Moncton but only 20 minutes south.


----------



## elly63

The Lions' franchises go back over 60 years. People forget that the NFL was not an important sporting entity in Canada until the 80s when their broadcasts become widely available (aside from near border regions ie Toronto/Buffalo). Globalization wasn't a factor then.

Mount A is not Moncton's team by any stretch of the imagination. Few people go from Moncton to watch Mount A football. I have lived in both Halifax and Moncton for lengthy periods and Halifax is the football town but Moncton officials have the drive to pursue a franchise and the physical location and population base to make it viable. Problem is there are no ownership groups on the horizon something that Commish Cohon knows from his local advisory committee.


----------



## isaidso

Monctonians would support collegiate football at UDM just like Haligonians support the Huskies. The argument that Moncton only supports high school football doesn't accurately summarize things. It's more a case of college football in Canada being for faculty and students while in the US it has spread beyond the collegiate walls. 

At the Touchdown Atlantic event the Mt. Allison team drew from lots of fans from Moncton. 

The Lions being over 60 years old? What's your point? If Ottawa wants to call their team the 76ers I have no objection at all. That some team in another country has done the same is neither here nor there. That Philadelphia team has no territorial claims here.

Moncton certainly has more ambition, but Halifax will win this battle.


----------



## koolio

elly63 said:


> While people here seem to think it is a good idea to pick an area and assign a team to it, the problem with that is there really is no call for a team in that area.
> 
> Quebec is quite happy with their college program at Laval and while the people of Moncton might think it would be great to have a team, there isn't a public groundswell to get one (aside from Mayor LeBlanc schmoozing), nor is there in Halifax where there is hardly enough impetus to build a stadium. I can't speak for Victoria but there doesn't seem to be much news coming out of there.
> 
> Look how long it has taken Ottawa to start moving, and that is with very dedicated ownership. There was significant enough negativity and NIMBYism to stall that project for years, the other cities haven't even got to that stage yet.
> 
> I wouldn't hold my breath for any new franchises any time soon.


Well you have to plan for the future. No one is saying that those markets are bursting at the seams with potential revenue. But those are markets that just by numbers alone will work under the right financial system. It is the job of the league to build interest within the locals once they establish a team there. This is why I don't begrudge the leagues American expansion. It was a gamble worth taking. The fact that it failed is unrelated to the initial logic behind the strategy.


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> Monctonians would support collegiate football at UDM just like Haligonians support the Huskies. The argument that Moncton only supports high school football doesn't accurately summarize things. It's more a case of college football in Canada being for faculty and students while in the US it has spread beyond the collegiate walls.
> 
> At the Touchdown Atlantic event the Mt. Allison team drew from lots of fans from Moncton.
> 
> The Lions being over 60 years old? What's your point? If Ottawa wants to call their team the 76ers I have no objection at all. That some team in another country has done the same is neither here nor there. That Philadelphia team has no territorial claims here.
> 
> Moncton certainly has more ambition, but Halifax will win this battle.


If you haven't lived in Moncton you shouldn't make such claims. Moncton has the two solitudes. English Moncton for the most part does not venture on the UdeM campus for UdeM sports. English Moncton does not back the (on the ice) very successful UdeM hockey program unless they make it to a National final. There would have been a time when this was a political, cultural thing, now it just doesn't happen for no particularly good reason. This would likely extend to football as well, baring in mind that the stadium is on the campus and the two CFL exhibitions were played there successfully.

The fact remains Moncton has no history of college football. I didn't say Moncton only supports high school football, there is no college football there to support, sorry but Mount A isn't Moncton.

When was the last time you lived in the Maritimes? Things have changed, Moncton gets the good large concerts over Halifax. You couldn't have said that two decades ago but now its the truth and people are moving and returning to Moncton in droves.

As for the Ottawa name it's not about Philadelphia rights, it's about brand awareness. When you hear the name Rivermen or Red and Black you will know who they are talking about.

As for Halifax winning the battle, an estimated 1.2m people live within a two-hour drive of Moncton and Moncton officials want it more.


----------



## elly63

koolio said:


> Well you have to plan for the future. No one is saying that those markets are bursting at the seams with potential revenue. But those are markets that just by numbers alone will work under the right financial system. It is the job of the league to build interest within the locals once they establish a team there. This is why I don't begrudge the leagues American expansion. It was a gamble worth taking. The fact that it failed is unrelated to the initial logic behind the strategy.


The American expansion was not a gamble worth taking, it was a quick money grab out of desperation. When the league became unashamedly Canadian again and through some long time missing TLC from TSN it started to grow again.

The American teams had fully American rosters, what Canadian fan cares if a guy came from North Southeastern West State University. When I grew up I wanted to follow Al Charuk, Gene Belliveau, Stu Fraser, and Chris Skinner, these were people we knew personally playing pro sport. We looked for Bomber LB Vernon Pahl because he actually played at UPEI. Who played at UPEI and made the CFL, now that's something! (Jim Foley also, played at UPEI/St Dunstan's) The Americans were interchangeable parts unless they were the stars of the team.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

The gong show in Hamilton keeps on rolling



> After months of frustration and secrecy surrounding the Pan Am stadium, city councillors have been dealt another blow — this time over the design of the new athletics facility.
> 
> In a report going to the planning committee Tuesday, city staff say the stadium does not comply with the city’s design guidelines. Several elements have fallen short, despite the fact that all the stadium bidders were given those guidelines more than a year in advance.
> 
> One major concern is that the rough underbelly of the stands will be exposed to the street, when city’s guidelines require the stands to be enclosed. The public plaza planned for the stadium’s entrance also falls short of the city’s guidelines, which require seating, shade, greenery and visual interest.
> 
> The city outlined its urban design principles to provincial officials in a letter sent Oct. 31, 2011.
> 
> “They were expected to comply with them, and they’re not. Now my question is going to be, how come?” Councillor Lloyd Ferguson said at Monday’s public works committee meeting. “We’ve had zero control of this thing … now we have to do our absolute best to make sure it’s something we’re going to be proud of when it’s done.”
> 
> City staff say the stadium contractors — a consortium called Ontario Sports Solutions — must satisfy all the outstanding design issues before they’ll receive a building permit.
> 
> Officials from Ontario Sports Solutions will attend Tuesday’s planning meeting to answer councillors’ questions about the design.
> 
> The design shortfalls are only the most recent in a long line of stadium-related frustrations. In the months before the design was publicly revealed, Ferguson — and many of his colleagues — consistently raised concerns about the lack of communication from provincial officials in charge of choosing the winning bidder and design.
> 
> Councillors on the city’s Pan Am subcommittee were forced to sign confidentiality agreements, and the rest of council — and the constituents they represent — were left in the dark. That secrecy was upheld despite the fact that the city is paying for 44 per cent of the $119-million stadium.
> 
> Steve Robichaud, the city’s manager of development planning, say staff have had ongoing meetings with the stadium proponents. He says most of the issues with the design were due to the project’s tight timelines.
> 
> “We have a good working relationship with them,” he said Monday.
> Councillors at Monday’s public works committee meeting also approved the removal of all the mature trees on the stadium site. Most of those 38 trees are healthy.
> 
> Although the stadium design plan calls for plantings of 120 young trees, none of the established trees — all of which are 25 to 30 years old — will be maintained. In fact, the plan calls for some young trees to be planted on the exact spot as the mature trees that will be cut down.
> 
> Councillors must approve the removal of any healthy, public tree.


----------



## KingmanIII

^^ they shoulda stuck with the West Harbor plan


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Demolition has started at Ivor Wynne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXYxG4akvSw


----------



## elly63

New roof for Montreal's 'Big O'?
Global News December 13, 2012

MONTREAL - Those involved in the future of Montreal's Olympic Stadium are fighting for its chances for the future.

"The RIO should have more power, should have more say, in its own future," said Lise Bissonnette, President, Advisory Committee on the future of the Olympic Park.

"We are suggesting that the legislation for the RIO be similar for what we are seeing for the Musee de Beaux Arts de Montreal."

Others are just full of plans.

"If we have a new roof, we will have more events at the Olympic Stadium," said l Menard, the mayor of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve.

And it's just this sort of optimism that's been missing since the 'Big O' opened in 1976 with the Olympic Games.

Thirty-seven years and $1.5 billion after it opened, the iconic stadium is crumbling beneath the weight of a heavy question mark: What should be done with it now?

Can it be a viable venture with out a major sports franchise?

Sports economist Andrew Zimbalist thinks this is unlikely.

"The answer's no. Absolutely not. There aren't enough events during the course of the year to generate enough revenue."

Perhaps the most infamous problem with the stadium is its fabric roof.

"Fixing the roof, whether it's $30 million or $80 million, it's not going to solve that problem," said Zimbalist.

"It's never a good idea to say 'build it and they will come' - particularly in this day and age with fiscal stringency."


----------



## elly63

Pull-up retractable roof recommended for Big O
CTV Montreal Dec. 13, 2012

A special committee on the future of Montreal’s Olympic Park has opened the door to the *installation of a retractable roof on the stadium not unlike that originally designed for the facility*.

The suggestion was one of 22 recommendations that resulted from a year-long consultation with 4,000 people.

The roof, as originally designed by French architect Roger Taillebert, was meant to be pulled up and down by metal cables from the angled tower above.

A permanent roof was eventually installed but it collapsed under the weight of snow, leading to the permanent closure of the facility during the winter season due to concerns of another collapse.

Committee Chair Lise Bissonette said that advances in technology might make the original concept more workable.

“We’ve been told by many people that, given the fact that we’re in 2012 and not1976, that maybe we should look again at the original proposal for a retractable roof and see if it’s possible with the progress of science and technology,” said Bissonnette.

The roof would have to be “consistent with the original design of the building,” according to the report.

The other 21 recommendations included one that would make the facility a centre for amateur sport.

The report also recommends more autonomy for the Olympic Installations Board and initiatives to increase tourism to the site.


----------



## Neda Say

^^ While they are at it... Could they rid us of that terrible baseball configuration. I don't know put the old athletic track on... Come up with a new low bowl design bringing football, soccer... hockey (yeah why not) fans much closer to the action


----------



## Scba

delete, durr


----------



## mrakbaseball

*Montreal Baseball Project*


----------



## mrakbaseball

*Montreal Baseball Project (3 min)*


----------



## Steelepunk

Cjones2451 said:


> You are right we should get back on topic
> 
> Is Calgary ever going to do anything with McMahon or should they try to build a new Stadium. I would love to see them do a new Stadium/ Arena for the Stamps and Flames like the VTB Arena being built in Moscow.


I like the idea of a Multiplex. Seeing as though the Flames now own the Stamps (CFL), Roughnecks (NLL) & the Hitmen (WHL) it makes sense to bring all teams together to share training & administration facilities. 

I love sport, travel the world to watch events but haven't been to a CFL game in years. Why? Main reason is McMahon is a dump of a stadium.

There is quiet a lot of land around the Stampede grounds that would be perfect for a brand new 30,000 seat Football stadium with a new indoor arena for the Flames & co adjacent. Add a direct C-Train (Transit) station that is under the stadiums & you have the makings of a world class sport complex fitting a modern, wealthy Canadian city.

In other words copy cities like Seattle & Melbourne and have a true sports district within the inner city.


----------



## Calvin W

Steelepunk said:


> I like the idea of a Multiplex. Seeing as though the Flames now own the Stamps (CFL), Roughnecks (NLL) & the Hitmen (WHL) it makes sense to bring all teams together to share training & administration facilities.
> 
> I love sport, travel the world to watch events but haven't been to a CFL game in years. Why? Main reason is McMahon is a dump of a stadium.
> 
> There is quiet a lot of land around the Stampede grounds that would be perfect for a brand new 30,000 seat Football stadium with a new indoor arena for the Flames & co adjacent. Add a direct C-Train (Transit) station that is under the stadiums & you have the makings of a world class sport complex fitting a modern, wealthy Canadian city.
> 
> In other words copy cities like Seattle & Melbourne and have a true sports district within the inner city.


Agree, multiple facilities sharing as much as possible is a dam good idea, but 30,000 is way to small for Calgary. Try 40,000 to start or even 45,000. That is where a city of 1million+ should be starting at.

An arena shouldn't be less than 18,000 minimum. As for lacross, Hitmen, etc. 18,000 is way to big. 8,000 would probably be a better size.


----------



## fenerty

Calvin W said:


> Agree, multiple facilities sharing as much as possible is a dam good idea, but 30,000 is way to small for Calgary. Try 40,000 to start or even 45,000. That is where a city of 1million+ should be starting at.
> 
> An arena shouldn't be less than 18,000 minimum. As for lacross, Hitmen, etc. 18,000 is way to big. 8,000 would probably be a better size.


If Winnipeg and Regina are building 33,000 seat stadiums then Calgary should be at 40,000, minimum. If not for the Stampeders then certainly for the other various major sports events and concerts that will be held there in the decades to come.

In Canada, football stadium lifespans seem to be much longer than the ones in the US where NFL stadiums are practically disposable and get replaced every 25 years or so now, so it is probably worth it to build a bit bigger in anticipation of future needs.


----------



## Steelepunk

While I agree a city of 1mill+ should have a 40,000+ stadium right now we have a 35,000 seat stadium that is used 10 times a year (don't count UofC games as they don't get any spectators) and last season when they went all the way to the Grey Cup only avg 28,000. 

Saying that though BC Place is 50,000+ and the Lions only avg 30,000 but at least there are other tenants (Whitecaps) & Vancouver attracts more events than Calgary does. Though if Calgary had a similar building, albeit smaller, then maybe Calgary could get some major events too.

Calgary is a hockey town though so a new indoor arena is much more important to the cities economy & culture so I imagine that will get done first but who knows...


----------



## dangleberry

Calgary probably has a better CFL fan base than vancouver. I don't know what the chances of Calgary attracting a MLS franchise are or if Calgary can support it but the Flames organisation (the group who owns the flames, stampeders and almost all other sports teams in calgary) are very rich. I'd be interested if they are going to build a new stadium for the stamps would they consider chasing a MLS franchise with it. IMO though the stamps renovate McMahon, Besides it being a shit-hole it is located in a nice spot.


----------



## elly63

Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group eyes name Red Blacks for new Ottawa CFL team
Don Brennan Ottawa Sun January 13, 2013

Ottawa Red Blacks, anyone?

Word spread quickly over the weekend that Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group was strongly considering the unique, two-colour handle as the name for its CFL team.

Contacted late Sunday night, co-owner Jeff Hunt confirmed the rumours.

“It’s on the short list,” Hunt told the Sun. “We’re going to do some focus groups in a week to test some short listed names.”

Word got out on Twitter that an Ottawa group branded the Ottawa Red Blacks name on Dec. 28.

Moonstar Limited of Kanata filed the trademark Dec. 28 with the Canadian Intellectual Property Office. The trademark was devised for "entertainment and sporting services, namely, the organization, administration and operation of a football team, organization of and sale of memberships in a football team fan club."

Moonstar Limited also registered four other trademarks Dec. 28 - Ottawa Redblacks (one word), Les Rougenoirs D'Ottawa, Les Rouges Noires D'Ottawa and Ottawa Fury FC.

Ottawa Fury is the name of the soccer club already run by OSEG partner John Pugh. He is putting a team in the NASL when the Lansdowne stadium is ready. It is entirely possible he'd keep a similar name for the higher-level soccer club.

All along, meanwhile, Hunt has said the football team’s name would be unique to Ottawa. The Red Blacks is certainly that...and unique to all sports.

Hunt has confirmed that the team colours would be black, white and red, shades also worn by both Rough Riders and Renegades, as well as the NHL Senators.

Ottawa Red Blacks...sit with it, a bit. Kinda has a nice ring to it.

















Funny how the poll stayed consistent. If I believed in conspiracies at all, I'd think that smart guys like Jeff Hunt et al are leaking these less popular names so that there will be more consensus when the real name is announced. The lesser of two evils - elly


----------



## Darloeye

HELL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! hno:

That Name was made up at quarter to 5 on a Friday night. 

:cheers: :cheers::cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:booze: :booze: :cheers2:

_Yeah that'll do _


----------



## carnifex2005

Of course, if they went with Ottawa Rouge et Noir, it would sound far more classy.


----------



## koolio

Terrible name. The name should have at least some semblance of bilingualism. Why not Ottawa Rouge Blacks?


----------



## elly63

Tks to Migs at SkyscraperPage Forum

Everything you wanted to know about the new Regina stadium (350 page report for city council)


----------



## isaidso

mrakbaseball said:


>


Thanks for posting that. Baseball has never seemed right to me since the Expos left. It won't feel right again till Montreal gets its team back.


----------



## elly63

Will Ottawa CFL fans embrace Red Blacks name?
Tim Baines Ottawa Sun January 14, 2013

OTTAWA - It isn't the Roughriders or the Rough Riders, or even the Lions, Stampeders, Blue Bombers, Eskimos, Tiger Cats, Alouettes or Argonauts, so no CFL teams will be able to kick up a beef over the name for Ottawa's CFL team.

But how will fans react when they hear that the likely choice for a CFL team that hits the field in 2014 could be the Red Blacks?

Red Blacks? Yep, that's the name that'll be rolled out in front of a focus group next week. And that could very well be the name that's announced at a podium in Ottawa in the very near future.

Why Red Blacks ... or Les Rouges Noirs ... or whatever variation of that they come up with?

“It speaks to Ottawa sports history, that's probably the logic of it,” said Ottawa Sports and Entertainment group's Jeff Hunt Monday. “When I heard the name, the first thing I thought of was (legendary New Zealand rugby team) All Blacks, with red and black being the connection to Otttawa sports history. It's unique.

“You get a better sense of it once there's a logo created around it. Right now, it's just a name. I don't think a name comes to life until you have full branding attached to it. In black and white, the name Senators doesn't evoke the same feeling as it does when the logo is attached to it. Look at 67's, it's just a number. It was simplistic and nice. And you don't think of it as just a number anymore, it's a brand.”

It's not a lock that the team will be called Red Blacks. But unless there's a huge kerfuffle and outrage from members of the focus group, it seems likely.

“We have to get this figured out soon,” said Hunt. “We have a timeline for jerseys.”

With the name leaking out after it was revealed Red Blacks name was trademarked a couple of weeks ago, there has been mixed reaction.

“It's going to sound foreign and awkward to begin with,” said Hunt. “(In the Name the Team campaign), no one name was mentioned more than 10 times out of thousands of suggestions. So less than 1% will agree with the choice.

“If it's mixed reaction and we have 50% like it already, that's good. Split is the best you can hope for. I don't think it's possible to pick something that will be roundly praised.

“I would say it caught me when I heard the name. There are so many neat things we could do with it.”


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## elly63

Excellent interview/article on the project manager of Investors Group Field. Relevant stadium info is excerpted - elly

Builder happy to finish stadium; excited to call Winnipeg home
Noah Erenberg Community News Commons January 8, 2013 

The man hired to build the new stadium, Mike Clynes, came to Winnipeg two years ago from the United States to take on this project. 

CNC: Obviously you got the job to build Investors Group Field. What did the project look like at the very beginning?

MC: I ended up starting work July 12, 2010. I came up here and started on the stadium project. At that time, there was one hand drawn drawing done, that’s all there was. That drawing was just the foundation plan. I was tasked with assisting design coordination, and tendering it as was required to provide a price – it was tendered in nine weeks. I had never tendered a project so fast and with a partial design; design was completed the last week of the nine-week tender period. It’s as fast track as it gets.

The team decided to go with integrated project delivery team approach, that’s where the architects and engineers as well as myself and my sub-trades come together, and work as a collaborative team for the betterment of the stakeholders, the end users.

*Working as a team now you can fast track the project, you can reduce the cost and enhance the quality* because you’re all on the same team, looking out for the same agenda, the same objectives, and *that’s why we were able to do things in record breaking time, give back a lot of money*, a lot of value engineering ideas. Value engineering just means you come up with strategies to produce something more efficient and less costly, but still with the same overall end result. And by giving back with value engineering, we’re able to produce things that enhance the fan experience which was the direction of the original developer.

CNC: How will the fan experience at the new stadium be enhanced?

MC: We have the two giant video screens, 120 feet by 30 feet, high definition on each end; we have 250 high definition TV’s, two on every column; we have a state of the art audio system with eleven speaker clusters on each side hanging from the roof and then one at every column on every level of the entire facility.

*We went with the largest seats, the best seats, 22 inch seats, Hussey Seating, the best in the industry*. We gave everybody 17 inches of legroom so that they wouldn’t be bothered when someone walked in front of them, they won’t have to stand up when someone walks through.

We over designed the restroom capacity by 50 percent so that your wait in line for the restroom is minimal. We gave it a flow so there’s no traffic; you go in one door, out the other.

The concession capacity was over designed by fifty percent in order to increase the variety of food and drink that you can buy at the concessions. It has a large dining area on the east side.

It’s one of the first stadiums in Canada to have both a university team housed with a professional league team; and complete locker rooms for both away team university and away team professionals as well as locker rooms for stars or performers and their crews. So, it’s well thought out.

The ramp going down into the basement into field level is capable of handling buses or cranes, so that the away teams can pull their buses directly down in the basement, load and unload, from an enclosed area.

The arch trusses, they are the highest and longest spanning in Canada and support five acres of roof. They are 590 metres long and a little over 200 feet high. Building it’s was a monumental feat that I’m proud to say I had a part in it.

CNC: We’ll ask you in a second about your new found admiration for Winnipeg and your desire to make it your new home, but first how about a bit more detail about completing this project. What were some of the records that were broken when it came to the designing and building of this new stadium?

MC: *It’s the least cost on a per seat basis of any stadium that’s ever been built in North America which is really a feather in the cap because we spared nothing when it came to enhancing the fan experience. So, you not only get a world class stadium, you get one at the least cost, and it’s also the fastest a stadium of that size has ever been built*.

And it also won an award. I had this stadium done as a BIM 3-D model, and it won an award for the best looking largest steel structure that had been 3-D modelled that year. You can turn the model upside down, you can look through it, you can do co-ordination, I gave it to my superintendents before we had really started and we found a lot of errors and mistakes. So, instead of fixing them with jackhammers and torches, we fixed them with erasers.

CNC: How about the least enjoyable aspect of the project?

MC: Reading about my project in the press and knowing what’s written about it is not correct.

CNC: Such as …?

MC: There was actually a lot of aspects but some of the delays, some of the delays as a result of weather, I don’t think the proper things were said there, and nobody ever printed or said it’s the fastest stadium of this size that’s ever been built. We were released December 17, 2010 going into the holidays; I ordered the steel for our foundation piles and had it delivered January 5, 2011; we drove our first foundation pile January 6, 2011; and *here we are 24 months later with a world class monument of a stadium that fast. I know that it set records and everybody else just thinks it’s late*.

CNC: Do you think it makes any difference now?

MC: It really makes no difference. I can tell you that when people walk into that stadium for the first time this year, and they see the true jewel they got, they’re not going to remember anything about schedule, timing, any of the details, it’s just all going to go away, *everybody is just going to go, ‘Wow’*.

CNC: So you think we are all going to be duly impressed when we walk in there?

MC: *I’ll tell you what, we’ve had suppliers that have supplied to all the NFL stadiums in the States, and they walked in and said, “Unbelievable.”*

Complete interview


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## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> Thanks for posting that. Baseball has never seemed right to me since the Expos left. It won't feel right again till Montreal gets its team back.


and all they have to do is recycle the Labatt Park plans




























http://www.stadiumpage.com/concepts/Labatt00_R.html


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## Walbanger

elly63 said:


> Will Ottawa CFL fans embrace Red Blacks name?


What about one of these little bastards?


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## isaidso

KingmanIII said:


> and all they have to do is recycle the Labatt Park plans


This site is currently a park?


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## Lord David

KingmanIII said:


> and all they have to do is recycle the Labatt Park plans
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> http://www.stadiumpage.com/concepts/Labatt00_R.html


So they can reconfigure the Olympic Stadium into a proper football stadium?

Perhaps a complete overhaul of the lower bowl, removal of the existing video scoreboard/advertising boards, installation of a proper retractable roof... then installation of a hanging new video scoreboard.


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## isaidso

I don't think anyone wants to watch baseball in Olympic Stadium ever again. If baseball is to return to Montreal, it must be an old school open air stadium downtown like the one depicted.


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## Lord David

Which begs the question of football. Is it worth the cost (given the Olympic Stadium's history) to alter it for the 21st century (which it desperately needs).

A complete re-haul of the lower tier.
New seats.
Overhaul of concessions and toilets.
Possible new roof.
And new suspended video scoreboards as well.


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## elly63

Committee approves new Regina stadium, financing
Emma Graney, Leader-Post January 16, 2013

REGINA — It was a mayor with a huge smile who spoke with reporters following Wednesday’s executive committee meeting, which saw the adoption of all recommendations regarding a new stadium in Regina.

There is now just one more step left before the stadium gets the official go-ahead — council approval.

The stadium’s concept design, financing and purchase of Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) land were all given the thumbs up during the meeting, though not all councillors were happy with the plans.

Shawn Fraser voted against all of the recommendations made by city administration, saying he didn’t think it was the right plan for the Queen City.

Also given the OK by the committee was a request for qualifications evaluation, which will narrow to three the number of companies which will be able to bid on the project.

It took more than three hours of discussion before everything was approved by the committee, though delegations were split between one dissenting voice and one urging the project’s timely go-ahead.

The adopted recommendations will mean a capital commitment of $278 million for stadium design, construction, land servicing, stadium planning, procurement and project management costs.

It also encompasses a 30-year debt up to $200.4 million, which represents a $100 million loan from the province and $100.4 million in city debt for capital and interim cash flow.

As well, Regina residents will see a 0.45 per cent mill rate increase each year for a decade, beginning this year, which will fund a $261.9 million chunk of the project.

Other revenue sources the city named in its recommendations include $100 million through ticket facility fees ($12 for every ticket will go toward the stadium), $75 million from a SaskSport lease agreement, $23.8 million in Mosaic cost avoidance savings, and $15 million in ad and sponsorship revenue.

The major partners are the Roughriders, who will fork out $25 million, the province (a $100 million loan and an $80 million contribution), and the city.

As well as funding the building of the new stadium, the city will also commit up to $188.8 million over 30 years for stadium maintenance.

Much of the discussion by councillors at Wednesday’s meeting revolved around how they believe the stadium will benefit the community in terms of amateur sporting groups using the space, and how it would affect the North Central community.

Although the meeting centred around stadium planning, Mayor Michael Fougere and most councillors said those plans were the first step in the larger Regina Revitalization Initiative (RRI), which they say will benefit the whole community.

Coun. Wade Murray in particular spoke at length about North Central, noting the neighbourhood has gone through an “amazing transformation” over the past seven years.

“(The RRI) presents so many opportunities to create a new, vibrant community,” he said.

Coun. Sharron Bryce agreed, saying the RRI would be a large step in securing more housing in the area, while Coun. Barbara Young said the RRI was “the very best” way to go.

“It’s transformative for the whole city,” Young said.

“This isn’t just about a stadium, this is a long-term plan,” added Coun. Jerry Flegel.

Following the meeting, Fougere said he was “very happy” with the outcome.

“This is a fantastic day for the city,” he said.

“No other city in Canada has this opportunity to build this kind of a development downtown.

“Most centres have been developed downtown, and you have what you have, but now we have a way to rejuvenate our city and move forward.”


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## natsfan2004

Lord David said:


> Which begs the question of football. Is it worth the cost (given the Olympic Stadium's history) to alter it for the 21st century (which it desperately needs).
> 
> A complete re-haul of the lower tier.
> New seats.
> Overhaul of concessions and toilets.
> Possible new roof.
> And new suspended video scoreboards as well.


All those upgrades basically just for the Grey Cup don't make any sense IMO. The Als just signed a 20-year lease with McGill in 2009, so they're not going anywhere for a while.


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## Lord David

But how about major events? And CFL playoffs? 

Montreal needs a major stadium and building a new one is out of the question.


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## Neda Say

Lord David said:


> But how about major events? And CFL playoffs?
> 
> Montreal needs a major stadium and building a new one is out of the question.


The problem being that renovating the Big O will cost pretty the the same price as building a brand new stadium except for the price of land acquisition.


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## Nate

Neda Say said:


> The problem being that renovating the Big O will cost pretty the the same price as building a brand new stadium except for the price of land acquisition.


The other problem is that deconstructing it would cost about the same too no?


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## carnifex2005

Nate said:


> The other problem is that deconstructing it would cost about the same too no?


Pretty much. The government have planned on getting a new roof that would cost $200 million for the stadium but that's about it.


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## elly63

The Olympic Stadium: Fact and Fiction

Demolishing the stadium is not an option: given its unique post-tension, pre-stressed concrete structure and proximity to the Metro and residential areas, the stadium cannot be demolished using dynamite. Like a giant Meccano toy set, the stadium would have to be taken apart piece by piece. This *would take several years, cost some $700 million* and require the disposal of tons of concrete...but most importantly it would deprive us of the largest stadium in the province.


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## Neda Say

^^and the $700M price tag for dismantling was the price given a few years ago! I don't really want to imagine the price today!


The other issue with the O is that it doesn't have a franchise using it! Soccer and Football will only use it on very special occasions. There's no more baseball, god forbid baseball coming back to it! You can bring monster trucks and supercross only so many times. And the acoustic plus closed roof configuration makes the place not so great for mega concert! 


So renovating is the best and only option but... Yeah but!


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## natsfan2004

Neda Say said:


> ^^and the $700M price tag for dismantling was the price given a few years ago! I don't really want to imagine the price today!
> 
> 
> The other issue with the O is that it doesn't have a franchise using it! Soccer and Football will only use it on very special occasions. There's no more baseball, god forbid baseball coming back to it! You can bring monster trucks and supercross only so many times. And the acoustic plus closed roof configuration makes the place not so great for mega concert!
> 
> 
> So renovating is the best and only option but... Yeah but!


Yeah...I admit I did discount the CFL playoffs and events when I was thinking about this earlier in the thread, but does it really make sense to spent the better part of a billion dollars to have those events? 

Honest question: What has changed in Quebec/Montreal politics/finances that would allow the funding of a redevelopment of Stade Olympique when there was little will to build Parc Labatt less than 10 years ago?


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## elly63

natsfan2004 said:


> Honest question: What has changed in Quebec/Montreal politics/finances that would allow the funding of a redevelopment of Stade Olympique


Facing the test of time: Retractable roof could give ‘dreadful’ Olympic Stadium a lively future in Montreal, committee says


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## Neda Say

Well regardless of what the stadium can host? The stadium needs maintenance. At this point in time the maintenance is getting uberpricey. 

If they bring the facilities up to today or better tomorrow' standards then they can look at what the answer of the local teams may be. A better big O may become a better option for the Alouettes and the Impact! 


Right now both teams will play one or two games but in terms of experience I'm sorry I'll take a sunny day at Saputo or Molson stadium any day. If the Big O was able to bring back the light inside it would be a huge plus. If the lower bowl was rebuilt to bring football, soccer fans closer I'd be all about it.


It's not about the stadium capacity cause it could lose about 10,000 seats and still be roomy for a city like Montreal right now.


Besides bringing the stadium to today's standard of engineering may also give a nice side results in making it easier to maintain and less energy hungry! And rejuvenating the O may also give some fresh air to the area in general I'll daresay that it needs it!


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## elly63

Ivor Wynne demolition right on track
Kaleigh Rogers CBC News Jan 24, 2013

Demolition of the Ivor Wynne stadium is progressing on schedule and the public is taking notice, according to Coralee Secore, Hamilton's manager of Pan Am Initiatives.

"Every time I go down there, there are people taking pictures," she said.

"It's such a big site. I'm constantly in shock at how much space there is. It's really exciting."

*Demolition began in December and should be complete by the end of February*, Secore said. At that point, workers will begin excavating the site in preparation to *begin the construction of the new stadium in May*.

Construction is *scheduled to be completed on July 1, 2014*. The Tiger-Cats will move in that summer, then move out from June 8 to Aug. 6, 2015, to accommodate the Pan American Games.

The new stadium will be constructed by Ontario Sports Solutions.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Looks like the Bills will be playing one game a season in Toronto for another 5 years

http://www.thestar.com/sports/footb...ue-playing-one-nfl-game-per-season-in-toronto


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## elly63

Stadium is a go; Regina council finalizes funding and preliminary design
Vanessa Brown, Leader-Post January 29, 2013

REGINA — The offseason keeps getting better for Jim Hopson of the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

As the city continues buzzing over the team’s recent acquisition of Geroy Simon, a new football stadium has now become a reality.

Regina city council on Monday finalized the stadium project’s funding agreements and conceptual design. Similar to previous votes, the motions passed through council 10-1. Coun. Shawn Fraser opposed.

Hopson, the Roughriders chief executive officer, sat in the gallery for more than three hours awaiting the results.

“I get tingles in my spine thinking about all the things going on,” Hopson said minutes after councillors voted in favour of the deal. “There’s just so much positive energy right now … I’m pragmatic, and I know there’s a lot of work to be done on the stadium, but this is a big step.”

*Construction is to begin in earnest in spring 2014, and it is expected the Roughriders will start their 2017 season in the new facility to be built on Evraz Place grounds.*

Monday’s widely anticipated meeting saw about 50 people in attendance, 17 of whom addressed council regarding the $278-million facility. Most voiced their opposition to the project.

Three police officers also stood in council chambers throughout the session. Before it got underway, a small group of about 15 people gathered outside City Hall protesting the plan.

“We’re here to voice concern about the process that was essentially rubber-stamped from the beginning,” said Danny Johnston, who argued council has not been receptive to some of its constituents’ concerns.

“This is an effort to reach out to citizens, and hopefully they’ll wake up and understand the issues that affect them … We have much more pressing needs in this city, and this issue obviously illustrates (council’s) priorities.”

It has been six months since Premier Brad Wall announced plans for a new football stadium. The same period became fraught with debate as more details emerged.

While football fans across the province heralded the decision to replace the 76-year-old stadium, some in Regina began to criticize the deal. Referendum supporters pushed for a public vote, arguing Reginans will be hamstrung by 30-year maintenance and debt repayment costs projected at $261 million.

Marc Spooner, an associate professor at the University of Regina, followed that vein in an address before councillors Monday night.

Spooner questioned why the current council is binding future councillors to the deal, arguing the majority of the stadium will be paid off long after today’s council is gone.

“You are the council who is so proudly pushing this new stadium deal, why not have it be you who proudly stands behind the major tax increases while you are still on council, rather than strapping some future council with the burden of carrying the brunt of your decision — thus tying their hands in the future?” Spooner said.

But the majority of councillors don’t see it that way. Through impassioned speeches made near the end of Monday’s meeting, they believe the endeavour is something future Reginans will be proud of.

“It’s important we leave this place a better place for future generations,” said Coun. Terry Hincks. “And the way we do that is to build things to make it better for our children and grandchildren.”


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## elly63

New soccer stadium decision in Edmonton will wait a year
Angelique Rodrigues Edmonton Sun January 28, 2013

It’ll be at least a year before local soccer fans can expect a decision on a proposed 15,000-seat stadium from city council.

The city’s executive committee pored over a report Monday on the viability of a new stadium, and other soccer options for the city including an indoor training facility.

But council members concluded they did not have enough information and asked administrators to take the next year and determine the demand for a new facility, and whether or not renovating an existing facility could do the trick.

While FC Edmonton has solved its seating issue temporarily by purchasing bleachers that will expand Clarke Stadium’s capacity to 5,000, officials say they still believe a new stadium is the best bet for a sustainable soccer future.

“We need a mid-size stadium for FC Edmonton but the city really needs that kind of stadium for all sorts of events,” said Tom Fath, president of FC Edmonton who was disappointed with the time frame handed down by committee. “I think it could be excited if we could build one before (the 2015 Women’s World Cup), but the stadium is still on the table.”

But Coun. Karen Leibovici says council needs to know if soccer can fill seats in Edmonton, before they consider spending money on an arena.

“What we have to see first is whether the (FC Edmonton) modifications to Clarke Stadium actually attract people,” she said Monday. “We don’t know the need or the cost until the needs assessment is done.”

Officials will look at business models and stadium options for the evolution of soccer and other field sports in Edmonton before returning to committee with their results before the end of 2013.


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## elly63

Argos left in limbo as Blue Jays look to install grass at Rogers Centre
RACHEL BRADY & ROBERT MacLEOD
TORONTO - The Globe and Mail Jan. 27 2013

With Hamilton’s football stadium under construction, this might have been an ideal year for the Toronto Argonauts to finally play host to the annual Labour Day game against the archrival Tiger-Cats at the Rogers Centre.

However, the Blue Jays, who are playing at home that weekend, claim the stadium cannot be converted in a single day for one of the marquee games on the CFL calendar. The dilemma underscores the need for the Argos to come up with a plan for long-term viability in Toronto.

With some 50,000 seats, the Rogers Centre is too big for Argonauts football in this day and age, and it’s a struggle to schedule their games around the Jays’ home schedule. The Blue Jays have stated their desire to install real grass to attract top players, the logistics of which would make it impossible to keep converting between the two sports. The clubs share a good working relationship, and the Jays don’t want to kick the Argos out or damage the CFL in a tricky Southwestern Ontario market. But as one of just two major-league teams not playing on grass, the Jays want – and need – a baseball-only facility with grass if they want to continue attracting top talent.

“It’s tough to co-exist. It’s tough for them, too. They’ve got to get dates in there,” Blue Jays president Paul Beeston said during an interview this week with The Globe and Mail. “The conversion – it isn’t like we play tonight and they can play tomorrow night. We play tonight, they can play two nights from then.”

Beeston added: “We can’t turn it around for football mode quickly enough for them to play on Monday. I feel badly about it. That’s their tradition, but we can’t deliver.”

The Grey Cup-champion Argos are in the middle of re-negotiating a deal to remain at the Rogers Centre, since their contract expired at the end of 2012. Argos president Chris Rudge says the negotiations are going well, and he expects it will be more substantial than simply a year-to-year deal.

Rudge says his club is exploring options for a new home venue, stressing they would be silly not to. But he declines to say what they are right now. He says *he and Beeston often discuss the notion of the Jays wanting to install grass. It’s no secret. But they have never been told it’s imminent or discussed a firm timeline for the Argos to move out*.

“It terms of moving from theory to reality, I’m sure they still have a lot of business analysis to go through,” Rudge said. “Clearly, there would be significant capital costs and logistics challenges, and I assume that as they get closer to making a decision and as we move into our next relationship with them, I have every confidence that they will give us considerable notice if it’s something that’s likely to happen and give us ample time to solidify any plans we may be developing.”

So when are the Argos moving out, and where would their new game venue be? What kind of building would they choose? Most can only speculate right now.

Many say Varsity Stadium at the University of Toronto might have been perfect, moving to a campus like the Montreal Alouettes did at McGill University.

Many lament that BMO Field didn’t work out, when a feasibility study found it unsuitable for CFL football back in 2009.

“Unless they can right-size a stadium downtown, I think they should move to the boroughs, get a significant break on rent and own their own market there,” said Brian Cooper, President and CEO of S&E Sponsorship Group. “Their right-size audience is 22,000-28,000, not 50,000. It’s really about defining their new audience.”

Richard Peddie, former president and CEO of Maple Leaf Sport and Entertainment, said that unless you have a worthwhile event – like the 2015 Pan Am Games opportunity, which allowed the Ticats funding help to get a new stadium – it will be difficult for the Argos to get any government funding toward a new facility.

“You need something to make it make sense because governments are very wary about spending money on new stadiums,” Peddie said. “It was amazing that Hamilton pulled off getting a new stadium on the back of the Pan Am Games, and MLSE got a new stadium [BMO Field] largely because of the world under-20s [soccer tournament].

“What have the Argos got?”

Peddie also mentioned the idea of moving outside the downtown core, but said it has its down side, too.

“The demographics are more 905,” said Peddie, who added that when he was with MLSE, he explored buying the Argos, but couldn’t figure out how to make the club financially viable. “That’s one of the problems with the CFL – it’s got an old demographic _(that would come as a surprise to TSN - elly)_ and that’s not good for sponsors, not food for the future. By putting it outside downtown, you’re pretty much saying you’re giving up on the city with the influx of young people coming in, buying condos and having money to spend. You want to be there.”

At his state-of-the-league address in November, CFL commissioner Mark Cohon said the long-term plan for the Toronto team should probably incorporate a new stadium in the region, one that would hold around 24,000 fans, like the league’s other new and incoming stadiums.

Rudge says the Argos’ higher priority right now is arranging a new practice facility, and he hopes to have news on that in the next month. Their current practice venue at University of Toronto Mississauga was damaged in a fire last off-season, and they hope to move into new practice digs for this coming season.


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## elly63

In terms of cost, the grass is always greener for Blue Jays
ROBERT MacLEOD TORONTO - The Globe and Mail Jan. 27 2013

Since the Toronto Blue Jays landed speedy Jose Reyes in the mega-deal with the Miami Marlins, calls for the club to install real grass at Rogers Centre have intensified.

Team officials say they are sensitive to the pent-up demands of the fans and have every intention of eventually laying down sod. But *the organization is now saying it will likely be at least five years before grass will replace artificial turf*.

There are several hurdles that first have to be cleared, including the relocation of the Toronto Argonauts, who have been tenants in the building since it opened in 1989.

Until the Canadian Football League club, which has yet to sign a new lease at Rogers Centre, decides on a new home, Blue Jays president and chief executive officer Paul Beeston said the baseball team’s plans for a new natural field cannot move forward.

The baseball and football seasons of both teams overlap and in order to sustain a grass field the seats at Rogers Centre could not be reconfigured for football games without destroying a large portion of the surface.

“I guess at some point in time, we’re going to have to work with them, to tell them we’d like a baseball-only stadium,” Beeston told The Globe and Mail earlier this week. “That’s the only way it works for grass, and we clearly want grass.”

The last of the big, multi-purpose sports facilities to be built in North America, Rogers Centre is maligned by many for being an inhospitable baseball venue.

A number of seats have poor sightlines and the atmosphere within the cavernous facility, especially with the retractable roof pulled shut, is hardly what could be described as homey.

But as Beeston points out, 7:07 p.m. games start right at 7:07 p.m., no matter what extreme weather conditions might be raging outside at the downtown Toronto venue.

“It’s taken for granted and it’s maligned too often for me,” Beeston said. “For the amount of use that it gets, whether it’s Bruce Springsteen or the tractor pulls where we’ll get 40,000 people over two days, it gets good use because it’s got that roof.

“And the location is a pretty good location.”

Beeston and the Blue Jays understand that the installation of grass would be a huge aesthetic improvement for the aging facility, not to mention they would be following a trend in major-league baseball away from synthetic surfaces. Rogers Centre and Tropicana Field in Tampa Bay, the home of the Rays, remain the only two facilities that don’t have grass laid down.

Not only does real grass look nicer but players enjoy playing on it better as it is a softer, more forgiving surface, and is easier on the legs and back.

That would be a boon for the likes of Reyes, whose great speed is one of his greatest assets and whose continued good health will be a key to the Blue Jays success in 2013.

But there are other impediments, other than the Argos, to putting in a grass surface.

“Specifically, the building has no drainage,” said Stephen Brooks, the Blue Jays’ senior vice-president of business operations. “It’s an indoor facility that can be opened as opposed to an outdoor facility that can be closed, if you can get the distinction.”

A concrete floor, which lies beneath the synthetic Astroturf carpet that the baseball team currently plays on, would have to be taken out. In its place some sort of a drainage system would have to be installed along with about 12 inches of soil upon which the grass sod would be placed.

Then there is the question of getting enough sunlight onto the grass surface to be able to sustain it.

“It won’t be easy, but it can be done,” Stephen Cockerham, the superintendent of agricultural operations at the University of California, Riverside, said in an interview. Cockerham is one of the leading experts in the development and use of grass at sports facilities. He was the team leader for the development of the playing field at Chase Field in Phoenix, the first retractable roof facility to install a grass surface.

It is one thing to be able to do that in the warm-weather climate of Arizona where the roof can be left open all the time. It’s another thing to pull it off in a seasonally-challenged northern climate.

Cockerham said there are certain strains of grass that are now being grown that do much better in areas where the sunlight is not that strong.

And should the sunlight be insufficient, there are large incandescent lighting systems available to provide a substitute.

“But it’s an expensive process for the lighting and then the associated energy costs,” he said. 

Rogers Centre has been outfitted with grass before.

In July of 2012, a temporary grass surface was laid on the field when Liverpool came over to play Toronto FC in a soccer friendly at a cost to Rogers Centre of over $100,000.

The installation took about three days and was carried out by Compact Sod and Greenhorizons, whose business originated in Cambridge, Ont.

Steve Schiedel, vice-president of the company, getting grass to grow year-round at Rogers Centre would be challenging.

He was asked if he through it was possible.

“I don’t know,” he said. “It needs to be explored.”


----------



## isaidso

The last thing the Argonauts need is less visibility by moving to the suburbs. They need a football specific stadium of 30,000 *downtown.*


----------



## Cjones2451

isaidso said:


> The last thing the Argonauts need is less visibility by moving to the suburbs. They need a football specific stadium of 30,000 *downtown.*


Could something be built up at Lamport Stadium to serve the Argos or could they expand on what is being done at Varsity Stadium for the Pan Am Games and make it more permanent? I do think they need to make is 28 - 30,000, otherwise it would be too small


----------



## elly63

Pelley: Blue Jays planning for grass field
Jeff Simmons January 29, 2013

It’s now a matter of when, not if the Toronto Blue Jays will be playing home games on natural grass.

Keith Pelley, president of Rogers Media, joined Prime Time Sports on Tuesday where he addressed the company’s future plans for the Rogers Centre.

"If we decide to put natural grass in the Rogers Centre, our plan would be to give the (Toronto) Argonauts ample warning and time to find another location," Pelley told PTS. "There is no question you’ve seen the commitment we’ve made to the Toronto Blue Jays and I think every player would want natural grass in the (Rogers Centre). Long term, we’ll have to find a way to put grass in there."

While Pelley says he doesn’t want to leave the Argonauts out to dry, he knows the Blue Jays will be better off down the road if they can get rid of the current AstroTurf playing surface.

"We don’t want to do anything to hurt the Canadian FootbalL League but they know at some point we have to now look at grass," Pelley said. "We’ve invested a tremendous amount in the Jays that will continue for the next five years. We want to be in the playoffs and bringing in grass will be another positive to bring people here."

Blue Jays president Paul Beeston has stated in the past that if the Rogers Centre added grass, it would need to become a baseball-only facility from April through October, meaning the Argonauts would need to find a new place to play their home games.

Pelley understands the value of adding grass but indicated that there is no timetable for the changes.

"Im a fan of the CFL -- we’ve had this conversation and we don’t want to do anything that’s detrimental," he explained. "There are conversations that are ongoing. Nothing is locked into stone but a conversation that’s going on right now…2014 might be a little bit difficult. 2015 depends on what happens with the Pan American Games and what the discussion is with the CFL. That would be a possibility."

If the Blue Jays decided to make changes to the Rogers Centre field, it would not impact the new five-year Rogers’ Bills in Toronto series as those games could be played after the baseball season ends.


----------



## elly63

Cjones2451 said:


> Could something be built up at Lamport Stadium to serve the Argos or could they expand on what is being done at Varsity Stadium for the Pan Am Games and make it more permanent? I do think they need to make is 28 - 30,000, otherwise it would be too small


I don't think the Argos will be going to Varsity (NIMBYISM and from what I understand no room). Varsity is not hosting any PanAm events IIRC, they will host the Parapan Opening and Closing Ceremonies.

A more likely place would be the new York stadium (Pan Am and Parapan Am Athletics Stadium) 

_The stadium is expected to seat approximately 12,500 spectators (3,000 permanent and 2,000 temporary. During the games an additional 7,500 temporary seats will be added). The facility will cost roughly $45.5 million ($34.9 million to design and build it and the rest for running costs): _from Wikipedia.










I think it is too late to adjust the York design as they have already broken ground. The problem with York is that it will have a track and its priority will be as a high performance track centre. That and the Argos, will not jive. I also doubt any Argo facility would have more than 25,000 seats.

If TFC keeps drawing sub 20k crowds as they have recently you might see the end zones blown out and the Argos go there. If TFC attendance doesn't pick up again as it was in the early years there will be a real power struggle. I can't see them going back to AT again nor can I see the pounding the Argos would give the present turf making the soccer people happy.

There really doesn't seem to be any satisfactory solution other than a gradual major Lamport refurbishment or a new stadium. And seeing as there is no other decent reason to build a new stadium aside from the Argos, they'll have to fund it themselves.

I understand Lamport is a good location and if the Argos were able to follow the British model and get a loan and knock down one side and rebuild a new stand will all the necessities and then a few years later do the other side, that might be another solution. 

But as it stands, there is likely to be one long "short term" solution that likely won't be very good.


----------



## Intoronto1125

elly63 said:


> I don't think the Argos will be going to Varsity (NIMBYISM and from what I understand no room). Varsity is not hosting any PanAm events IIRC, they will host the Parapan Opening and Closing Ceremonies.
> 
> A more likely place would be the new York stadium (Pan Am and Parapan Am Athletics Stadium)
> 
> _The stadium is expected to seat approximately 12,500 spectators (3,000 permanent and 2,000 temporary. During the games an additional 7,500 temporary seats will be added). The facility will cost roughly $45.5 million ($34.9 million to design and build it and the rest for running costs): _from Wikipedia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is too late to adjust the York design as they have already broken ground. The problem with York is that it will have a track and its priority will be as a high performance track centre. That and the Argos, will not jive. I also doubt any Argo facility would have more than 25,000 seats.
> 
> If TFC keeps drawing sub 20k crowds as they have recently you might see the end zones blown out and the Argos go there. If TFC attendance doesn't pick up again as it was in the early years there will be a real power struggle. I can't see them going back to AT again nor can I see the pounding the Argos would give the present turf making the soccer people happy.
> 
> There really doesn't seem to be any satisfactory solution other than a gradual major Lamport refurbishment or a new stadium. And seeing as there is no other decent reason to build a new stadium aside from the Argos, they'll have to fund it themselves.
> 
> I understand Lamport is a good location and if the Argos were able to follow the British model and get a loan and knock down one side and rebuild a new stand will all the necessities and then a few years later do the other side, that might be another solution.
> 
> But as it stands, there is likely to be one long "short term" solution that likely won't be very good.



No way BMO Field is made suitable for a second tier league like the CFL which seems to be a dying product in Toronto. 

Varsity is hosting Parapan Archery as well

The York Stadium HAS NOT started construction so a small window of opportunity. However I don't think there is enough space for 30,000 seats.


----------



## carnifex2005

CITY OF MARKHAM UPHOLDS FUNDING MODEL IN NARROW COUNCIL VOTE

Councilors for the city of Markham voted to approve the existing financing model for an NHL-sized arena on Tuesday night.

A motion had been put forward to rescind the approval for the project which was to be funded by a mixture of private and public funds but that motion was struck down by council on Tuesday by a narrow 7-6 margin.

Council originally supported the concept of funding the project by an overwhelming margin last year, but public support had waned with the fear of losses if there is no NHL team is a tenant.

Tuesday's meeting - which extended into the early hours of Wednesday morning - offered both concerned citizens, interested parties and council members themselves an opportunity to express their opinions on the proposed funding model.

The 20,000-seat arena complex is expected to cost $325 million, all of which would be borrowed by the city under the current plan with GTA Sports and Entertainment, the private partners behind the project, paying back half that amount. The city plans to pay back the rest of the loan through levies on developers and surcharges on parking and event tickets, resulting in no increase in taxes on residents.


----------



## elly63

Intoronto1125 said:


> No way BMO Field is made suitable for a second tier league like the CFL which seems to be a dying product in Toronto. The York Stadium HAS NOT started construction so a small window of opportunity. However I don't think there is enough space for 30,000 seats.


Really? Would you care to argue that? Could say the same for MLS.

I said they had broken ground not started construction and 25k seats tops (to limit ticket availability). If you wanted 30k seats it would hardly be dying would it?


----------



## Intoronto1125

elly63 said:


> Really? Would you care to argue that? Could say the same for MLS.
> 
> I said they had broken ground not started construction and 25k seats tops (to limit ticket availability). If you wanted 30k seats it would hardly be dying would it?



Personally I like the CFL. However with dwindling attendance it is not as mainstream as it was before. Maybe the Grey Cup win will help. I said 30k as just a number out of the blue.


----------



## shhyvoodoo

Intoronto1125 said:


> No way BMO Field is made suitable for a second tier league like the CFL which seems to be a dying product in Toronto.
> 
> Varsity is hosting Parapan Archery as well
> 
> The York Stadium HAS NOT started construction so a small window of opportunity. However I don't think there is enough space for 30,000 seats.


Since when did the MLS become a first tier league?!?!?:lol:

the CFL attendance and TV ratings have been going up in the last 5 or so years.. One is certain though, Toronto WILL NOT EVER get a NFL team.. Not before Los Angeles...


----------



## timo9

isaidso said:


> Thanks for posting that. Baseball has never seemed right to me since the Expos left. It won't feel right again till Montreal gets its team back.


+1


----------



## timo9

MegasAlexandros said:


> Well, since nobody else has bothered to post the BIGGEST and most ROCKIN' arena in Canada, I will do the honors...
> 
> The Bell Center/Centre Bell, home of the Montreal Canadiens (capacity of 21,273):


Nice one ^^


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## carnifex2005

And from the "No Shit Sherlock" files...

*Sources: Coyotes' sale in question*

Former San Jose Sharks CEO Greg Jamison, the main suitor for the Phoenix Coyotes for the past year, cannot produce the capital needed to purchase the team from the NHL and as a result a Jan. 31 deadline to maintain a critical lease agreement with the City of Glendale will pass without a deal being completed, multiple sources have told ESPN.com.

A separate group of investors is prepared to step into the void created by Jamison's failure to produce the money he repeatedly insisted he would deliver to complete the deal, but the question is whether Glendale officials will agree to extend the lease agreement to a new group given that it was Jamison who negotiated the terms of the highly contentious lease deal.

It's believed that Mayor Jerry Weiers, who took office after the lease agreement was passed by the previous council, would be agreeable to discussing keeping the team in Glendale with this new group, although it's believed he will want to rework the deal to make it more beneficial for the city.

Under the current lease agreement, the team's owners would receive some $308 million over the life of the 20-year deal to manage the property, an average of slightly more than $15 million annually in management fees.

It is almost certain that when Thursday's deadline passes, Jamison's role in any purchase agreement with the league or lease agreement with the City of Glendale will be at an end.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

The last part of Ivor Wynne goes down - posted by maas_fan over at the Ticats.ca Forums 





 
Pics here

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151726689268298.624972.632938297&type=1


----------



## will101

ChesterCopperpot said:


> The last part of Ivor Wynne goes down - posted by maas_fan over at the Ticats.ca Forums


Wow. That was quick. Never mess with the workers from Hamilton.


----------



## will101

carnifex2005 said:


> ... but the question is whether Glendale officials will agree to extend the lease agreement to a new group given that it was Jamison who negotiated the terms of the highly contentious lease deal.


So what happens if the team loses its lease, but the league does not grant permission to move anywhere?


----------



## carnifex2005

will101 said:


> So what happens if the team loses its lease, but the league does not grant permission to move anywhere?


The Coyotes will still play under the old lease and the NHL will have to absorb the losses under that lease. After four years of looking for an owner the NHL is tired of throwing money down a black hole and probably won't have any problem with someone moving the team.


----------



## eMKay

Intoronto1125 said:


> No way BMO Field is made suitable for a second tier league like the CFL which seems to be a dying product in Toronto.
> 
> Varsity is hosting Parapan Archery as well
> 
> The York Stadium HAS NOT started construction so a small window of opportunity. However I don't think there is enough space for 30,000 seats.


BMO Field sounds perfect to me for the Argos with a bit of expansion, TFC could fill 30,000 for a few times a year, maybe more if the Maple Leaf like ticket prices were lowered (I think I read they just did that somewhere?) CFL isn't dying, seems to be going just fine to me, your opinion obviously is not based on facts.


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## elly63

The whole Argos thing is frustrating because they have good people there: Braley, Rudge. They aren't idiots and have to be planning for down the road but we aren't hearng any speculation at all.

Keith Pelley (Sportsnet) who was on Prime Time Live said there were preliminary talks with Varsity and York but to me he didn't sound very convincing. He was talking about discussion concerning facilities for the PanAms which to my mind is only the York track stadium. 

None of the options I can see are very satisfactory.


----------



## elly63

Speaking of BMO, I can remember before it was built how people derided it as a bare bones facility. Funny how you really don't hear any of that now, that seems to be replaced by criticizing the new Hamilton stadium which is slightly larger (than the original BMO) with over twice the budget.

Hamilton's gonna be alright and with limiting the tickets I would think that would lead to a more loyal, rabid fanbase a la TFC. With new and greater revenue streams the league will become less gate dependant although of course it will always be vital.

CFL Fact from Chuck Finley: *Did you know that no team in CFL history has averaged > 40,000 fans per game, much less 50,000!* (context "With some 50,000 seats, the Rogers Centre is too big for Argonauts football in this day and age")

Check out the reply


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Lansdowne Park - January 26, 2013 from Southfacing on Flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


----------



## carnifex2005

elly63 said:


> Speaking of BMO, I can remember before it was built how people derided it as a bare bones facility. Funny how you really don't hear any of that now, that seems to be replaced by criticizing the new Hamilton stadium which is slightly larger (than the original BMO) with over twice the budget.
> 
> Hamilton's gonna be alright and with limiting the tickets I would think that would lead to a more loyal, rabid fanbase a la TFC. With new and greater revenue streams the league will become less gate dependant although of course it will always be vital.
> 
> CFL Fact from Chuck Finley: *Did you know that no team in CFL history has averaged > 40,000 fans per game, much less 50,000!* (context "With some 50,000 seats, the Rogers Centre is too big for Argonauts football in this day and age")
> 
> Check out the reply


Actually, I hear about the shortcomings of BMO a lot from TFC fans. It really was a bare bones facility and isn't in the class of any of the new CFL stadiums, including the new Ivor Wynne.


----------



## carnifex2005

Winnipeg loses 2014 Grey Cup because of last years construction delays at Investors Group Field. BC Place will host it again (3rd time in 4 years).


----------



## Cjones2451

3rd time for David Braley, 2nd time for the Lions. But if no one else is stepping up to bid for it and with all Braley has done for the league, I don't have a problem with it


----------



## elly63

Cjones2451 said:


> 3rd time for David Braley, 2nd time for the Lions. But if no one else is stepping up to bid for it and with all Braley has done for the league, I don't have a problem with it


Yup, if the profits can be funneled to help subsidize the Argos, Braley does deserve it. Don't know why the media gave him such a hard time for making a big profit off the Toronto Grey Cup for all he's done. Besides, all the new stadiums will get their kick at the cat soon.


----------



## carnifex2005

CFL gains a significant increase in their TV deal. Worth about $40 million per year now. They deserve it. The CFL is a ratings juggernaut.

Vancouver (BC Place) to host 2015 Women's World Cup final. Semis will be in Edmonton (Commonwealth Stadium) and Montreal (Olympic Stadium).


----------



## GunnerJacket

carnifex2005 said:


> CFL gains a significant increase in their TV deal. Worth about $40 million per year now. They deserve it. The CFL is a ratings juggernaut.


Wow. I'm glad for their increase but that also seems astonishingly low. I realize the size of the market but I also knew how popular the league was. Guess I assumed it was already near the $75M+ mark.

So what's the annual budget like for these teams?


----------



## elly63

GunnerJacket said:


> So what's the annual budget like for these teams?


The break-even point for most CFL teams is believed to be about $15 million in total annual income. With recent huge increases in TV viewership, broadcast revenues are expected to double or triple in the next couple of years, taking a big bite out of the $5 million income required beyond ticket sales. While the number of high-rent corporate boxes and club seats slated for the new stadium have not been revealed, there are going to be at least twice as many as there are now, adding more income potential to the Cats’ balance sheet.


----------



## carnifex2005

GunnerJacket said:


> Wow. I'm glad for their increase but that also seems astonishingly low. I realize the size of the market but I also knew how popular the league was. Guess I assumed it was already near the $75M+ mark.
> 
> So what's the annual budget like for these teams?


Anywhere from $10 million to $20 million. The only teams that release results since they are publicly owned (Edmonton and Saskatchewan) had about $25 million and $35 million in revenue a season ago. They are generally considered the two richest teams. This deal will definitely help the smaller eastern teams get into the black.


----------



## isaidso

GunnerJacket said:


> Wow. I'm glad for their increase but that also seems astonishingly low. I realize the size of the market but I also knew how popular the league was. Guess I assumed it was already near the $75M+ mark.


I've always found the dollar amount the CFL receives astonishingly low as well. The NFL gets $3 billion/year in the United States. Considering our market is one-ninth the size, you'd expect $330 million/year in Canada *if the CFL was as well supported.* 

I realize it's not, but how on earth is it 8.25 times more popular per capita? (330/40=8.25) I would have assumed the CFL brought in about $100 million/year at the very worst due to its lower penetration of its domestic market. $40 million? That's seems like peanuts for a league that brings in 1 million viewers for some regular season games.


----------



## elly63

The Pro Sports Market in Canada
Glen Hodgson and Mario Lefebvre February 2011

In short, the available data suggest that, although there are sharp differences among the teams in terms of operating income, *the six Canadian NHL franchises have a revenue footprint within the Canadian economy of about $750 million*. 

The window into the CFL’s finances is also quite transparent. Three CFL teams are “community-owned.” These teams have a very large number of small investors and a business model, balance sheet, and income statement that have been built up step-by-step over a long period of time. And because they are community-owned, the financial reports for these CFL franchises are widely available to the public. 

In 2009, the Saskatchewan Roughriders had a great year financially, reporting a profit of $3.1 million on gross revenues of $30.9 million. The Edmonton Eskimos reported $15.2 million in operating revenue for the 2009 business year, and net operating income of just over $500,000. The Eskimos were just below the league salary cap of $4.2 million, meaning that player salaries were only about 30 per cent of total operating expenses. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers reported operating revenue for the 2009 business year of $14.5 million, but an operating loss of $1.2 million. However, much of the loss was due to severance costs related to the firing of the head coach and most of his assistants. Despite a disappointing 7–11 record that saw them miss the playoffs, the Bombers exceeded the league salary cap. 

This public financial reporting from three long-time and stable CFL franchises suggests that *the CFL generates annual revenues between $120 million and $150 million* (again, with a significant variation in revenues and earnings among the teams).


----------



## elly63

City of Ottawa
*March 22, 2013*










- All of the old roof panels have been removed over the north stands
- The old media boxes are being removed and new ones will be built as part of the renovations of the north stands
- Columns to support the second floor of the south side stands are being poured on top of the first section of the main concourse floor
- The second section of the main concourse floor for the south stands was poured on Thursday
- Backfilling the exterior berm that will lead to the Rideau Canal, the veil will rise from the top of this berm
- Civic Centre renovations continue


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## ChesterCopperpot

The new area in the Rogers Centre outfield


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Found this on my travels today


----------



## elly63

It would help to know where you found this so we could put it into context and maybe do a little detective work. Somebody saved this and posted it to tinypic, where was it originally?


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## ChesterCopperpot

I found it on the IBI Group website - it was part of a PDF of the stadium work they had done

http://www.ibigroup.com/what-we-do/architecture/stadiums-and-special-events/


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## elly63

City of Ottawa
*April 4, 2013* 

- All of the old roof panels and the media boxes have been removed in the north side stands
- Most of the first floor concourse at the south side stands has now been poured
- Columns and walls are going up on the first floor of the south side stands that will soon support the second storey
- A channel for site servicing is being dug on the north side of the stadium field


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## elly63

Photo courtesy Marc Lagace The Manitoban April 8th, 2013

Looks more like a large hockey rink but it's almost completed


----------



## Cjones2451

I found this and thought is was very cool, the Apartment / Condo prjoect next to the New Ottawa Frank Clair Stadium will have a common area that will overlook the end-zones of the new stadium. How cool would it be to have a Grey Cup party there!

http://www.minto.com/buy-a-condo-in-ottawa/Lansdowne/Gallery~777.html

Sorry, can't get any of the flash pics to post here


----------



## will101

Is the CFL ever going to have a 10th franchise? If so, when and where?


----------



## carnifex2005

will101 said:


> Is the CFL ever going to have a 10th franchise? If so, when and where?


It's hard to say. It would more than likely be Quebec City but the CFL has been playing on the east coast enough that I'm sure they'll want a team there first in either Halifax (preferred) or Moncton. I can't see this happening for at least a decade though. Ownership groups are hard to come by in the CFL.


----------



## Cjones2451

I think even if someone did step up in Halifax or Moncton as an owner getting a stadium to CFL standards will require gov't funds and that is going to be a difficult sell. In Quebec City, I think the focus is on getting a NHL team and the new arena, but I agree that is at least 8-10 years away



carnifex2005 said:


> It's hard to say. It would more than likely be Quebec City but the CFL has been playing on the east coast enough that I'm sure they'll want a team there first in either Halifax (preferred) or Moncton. I can't see this happening for at least a decade though. Ownership groups are hard to come by in the CFL.


----------



## elly63

Olympic Stadium's roof ripped 1240 times last year
Mayor Applebaum says new, retractable roof is the only solution
CBC News Apr 12, 2013

The fabric roof on Montreal's Olympic Stadium continues to deteriorate, according to the 2012 annual report of the Olympic Installations Board (RIO.)

An inspection last fall found 826 new defects or tears in the fibreglass material. That's after inspectors counted 414 tears in the spring of 2012 — for a total of 1,240. Repairs to the roof cost the RIO $316,000.

"The degradation of the mechanical properties of the fabric are significant, and aging is more significant than anticipated," the annual report states.

The RIO has been documenting a gradual deterioration of the fabric roof for the past several years. In 2009, the Montreal fire department was worried enough that it insisted on reviewing the security protocols at the stadium to ensure public safety.

Earlier this month, the advisory committee on the future of Montreal's Olympic Park called for the replacement of the roof.

Montreal Mayor Michael Applebaum reiterated that on Friday.

"*We need a replacement roof, and we're talking about a roof that is able to open in the summer time*," Applebaum said.

The RIO has spent $1.4 million over the past two years studying its options for replacing the roof.

The roof is not the only expensive problem the installations board is facing. The parking structure at the Big O will also need major repairs over the next few years.


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## elly63

Plans to replace Big O roof expected by end of 2013
CBC News Apr 13, 2013

As Montreal's Olympic Stadium roof continues to deteriorate, Quebec’s tourism minister says he hopes to present a plan for its replacement in the next few weeks.

According to the Olympic Installations Board's 2012 annual report, the stadium’s roof ripped a total of 1,240 times last year and repairs to the roof cost the board $316,000.

Minister of Tourism, Pascal Bérubé, said he expects the government will *finalize its plans for a new roof by the end of 2013, but it could take several more years for the project to be completed*.

The stadium’s roof has been plagued with problems ever since it was first constructed.

The current membrane roof was installed by Birdair in 1998 at a cost of $37 million, but ongoing problems mean the stadium can’t be used during the winter because of safety concerns.

Montreal Gazette columnist Bill Brownstein said he thinks it’s time to tear down the stadium.

“Enough is enough, I mean blow up the sucker. You can’t even use it in the winter, parking is a problem, inside structurally there are problems galore,” he said.

“The joke is on us after awhile. How long do we have to continue paying for all of this?”

But the minister said maintaining the historic building is important.

“It’s like an icon for Montreal,” Bérubé said.

The Quebec government is currently consulting with stakeholders on a number of factors regarding the new roof, including cost, utility and architecture.

But while the Big O may be a beloved part of Montreal’s skyline, Brownstein said it would be better for the city to cut its losses and move on.

“Sentiment can get in the way of pragmatism and I think at a certain point we just have to say this ain’t working.”

*Olympic Stadium key facts*:
- Opened without a roof in 1976 to host Olympic Games.
- Retractable roof system was added in later years, but its completion was delayed because of design problems.
- In 1987, an orange and silver Kevlar fabric covering held in place by steel cables was added, but it never retracted properly and cost up to $700,000 to maintain.
- A large chunk of the roof fell down in 1991 when support beams gave in. No one was injured.
- The current membrane roof was installed by Birdair in 1998 at a cost of $37 million.
- In 1999, a section of the new roof collapsed as workers were preparing for an auto show at the stadium. No one was hurt.


----------



## elly63

City of Ottawa
*April 26, 2013*









Yellow bars to support the concrete as it curs for the second level are in place for the first concrete pour









The main concourse level of the south stands is complete and vertical supports for the second level are going into place









A view of the stadium from a tower crane in the urban village. The roof has been removed from the north stands and the south is taking shape

- At the east end of the existing stadium, foundations for a new loading dock and access ramp are being installed, and older structures are being removed. Forming and concrete pouring for the new structures will continue next week
- Installation of electrical and mechanical systems inside the north stands continues
- Some remedial work inside the north stands is ongoing for the next couple of weeks
- Backfilling along the eastern end of the new south stands was completed
- Electrical, mechanical and exhaust systems are being installed in the south stands
- The concrete structure for the main concourse at the south stands is now finished
- The contractor poured the first section of the second floor structure
- Next week, supports for the third level of the stands will start to be installed


----------



## Cjones2451

*New Hamilton Stadium*

Here is a great aerial shot of the old Ivor Wynne stadium after demolition and with the foundations being done


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

You can see the headwall and player tunnel pretty clear there


----------



## Lord David

Cjones2451 said:


> I think even if someone did step up in Halifax or Moncton as an owner getting a stadium to CFL standards will require gov't funds and that is going to be a difficult sell. In Quebec City, I think the focus is on getting a NHL team and the new arena, but I agree that is at least 8-10 years away


The only hopes for the likes of Halifax and Quebec City is if a major event like the FIFA World Cup was what Canada was bidding on or hosting.

Which is a shame, because the CFL certainly needs an expansion.


----------



## isaidso

Lord David said:


> The only hopes for the likes of Halifax and Quebec City is if a major event like the FIFA World Cup was what Canada was bidding on or hosting.
> 
> Which is a shame, because the CFL certainly needs an expansion.


Ottawa is rejoining the CFL in 2014. Halifax and Quebec City will happen eventually, but my bet is on Halifax in 2020. They'll have 450,000 people by then which is more than enough to support a franchise. Besides, the Maritimes is football country.


----------



## koolio

I hope we see both Halifax and Quebec City by 2020. After that, I hope we see Victoria and another team in Southern Ontario by 2030. 4 teams in 17 years ... I don't think I am asking for too much


----------



## isaidso

You and millions of other Canadians would like the same thing. What's surprising is that there were far more teams contesting for the Grey Cup 100 years ago. I know you live in Victoria, but do you think that Kelowna might get there first? The Okanagan Valley is less populated, but sporting culture is important. The BC Interior strikes me as more fertile football territory than Vancouver Island.

*CFL 2030*

EAST
Hamilton
Toronto
Montreal
Ottawa (2014)
Halifax (2020)
Quebec City (2020)
London (2030)
KW (2030) 

WEST
Winnipeg
Saskatchewan
Calgary
Edmonton
BC
Saskatoon (2025)
Kelowna (2030)
Victoria (2030)


----------



## Cjones2451

I think there is enough support and love for the CFL, but it would take $100's of millions of dollars in stadium infrastructure to build stadia in these markets. No one more than me would like to see this, but I think it is extremely difficult with all levels of gov't in Canada to get this done. Look how long Halifax has been trying to get one




isaidso said:


> You and millions of other Canadians would like the same thing. What's surprising is that there were far more teams contesting for the Grey Cup 100 years ago. I know you live in Victoria, but do you think that Kelowna might get there first? The Okanagan Valley is less populated, but sporting culture is important. The BC Interior strikes me as more fertile football territory than Vancouver Island.
> 
> *CFL 2030*
> 
> EAST
> Hamilton
> Toronto
> Montreal
> Ottawa (2014)
> Halifax (2020)
> Quebec City (2020)
> London (2030)
> KW (2030)
> 
> WEST
> Winnipeg
> Saskatchewan
> Calgary
> Edmonton
> BC
> Saskatoon (2025)
> Kelowna (2030)
> Victoria (2030)


----------



## isaidso

Cjones2451 said:


> I think there is enough support and love for the CFL, but it would take $100's of millions of dollars in stadium infrastructure to build stadia in these markets. No one more than me would like to see this, but I think it is extremely difficult with all levels of gov't in Canada to get this done. Look how long Halifax has been trying to get one


Agree. We don't have dedicated revenue streams for things like transit and stadia in this country, so it's always very difficult. Hosting an international event is about the only way anything gets built, even in our biggest cities.

That said, I would be very disappointed if we didn't get to 10 teams by 2020. 14 should be seen as the bare minimum for the long term prosperity of the league. The CFL has done extremely well with just 8 teams, but people rightfully criticize having to watch the same match ups 3 times/season.

The Ottawa RedBlacks will add some much needed fresh blood in 2014. I guess Winnipeg will move back to the Western Conference where they belong.


----------



## will101

How much money does each CFL team get from TV each year? I've been trying to understand the economics of a CFL team. I know the salary cap is roughly $4.5 million per team, and I'm assuming that each team takes in about $20 million from ticket sales each year.


----------



## elly63

will101 said:


> How much money does each CFL team get from TV each year? I've been trying to *understand the economics of a CFL team*. I know the salary cap is roughly $4.5 million per team, and I'm assuming that each team takes in about $20 million from ticket sales each year.


Your answers:

TSN and CFL agree on deal worth around $40 million a year, source says
The Canadian Press March 21, 2013

Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton Sep 01 2011 theSpec.com


----------



## Neda Say

I wish we could get Halifax in the league tomorrow!
With ten teams and 1o home game per season with every team playing against every other team at home plus 2 extra match ups decided by lottery , The CFL and TSN would have a very solid spring/summer/fall outdoor product.


----------



## elly63

City of Regina short-lists stadium bids
Patrick Book May 3, 2013

Three groups of internationally-experienced construction and architecture firms are bidding for the chance to build Regina's stadium.

On Friday morning the city revealed that it had chosen a short-list of companies that have been approved to bid on the $278 million public/private partnership project. On the line is a 30-year contract to fund, design, build, and maintain the facility, which is expected to be the city's most expensive capital project of all time.

The first group is headed up by Bouygues Building Canada and Graham Design Builders. Architecture firm Stantec, design firm NBBJ, engineering consultants Buro Happold, and Calgary-based financer Gracorp Capital Advisors are also on board. 

Clark Builders and Turner Constructions lead the second group. Their design team will include 360 Architecture and Arndt Tkalcic Bengert and financing will come from German-based construction financier Hochtief.

PCL Construction is the lead firm on the third bid. HKS brings a background in sports architecture to their design team and B&H Architects are also on board. TD Securities will lead the financing team.

Each team brings plenty of international experience to the project, according to deputy city manager and project head Brent Sjoberg.

"A number of these firms have done projects around the world from a stadium perspective. Some of the projects that come to mind from my perspective were that they've been involved in BC Place, the work there. Some of the firms are involved in the replacement for Ivor Wynne stadium in Hamilton as well as some really high-profile projects in the US like Cowboys Stadium and Lucas Oil Stadium, which are some very large stadiums. There's a number of stadium projects throughout Europe that some of the folks have been involved in, soccer facilities and other things."

Sjoberg said staff are working on the formal Request For Proposals, laying out exactly what will be required of the winner. That will include defining what the winning bidder will be on the hook for when it comes to risks like cost over-runs.

"It takes a bit of work up-front," he conceded. "We've been working on this for months to make sure we try and get it right but the benefit of course is that they know going in so they can accept those risks."

*The winner will create their own design, taking some cues from the concept design that made a splash last fall. Sjoberg says the final design could run the gamut, with the winning firm either choosing to use the concept design as-is, use none of it, or anything in between. He says the city will be able to dictate some elements that will be required.*

City staff should be presenting the final terms of the RFP to City Council in July. *The winning bid will be chosen early in the new year but the city is hoping to do prep work on the site later this summer or fall so that the chosen team can get to work as soon as possible next spring*.


----------



## Cjones2451

Here is an aerial shot of the almost new 24,000 seat Landsdowne Park, can't wait to see the CFL and NASL there in 2014


----------



## elly63

will101 said:


> How much money does each CFL team get from TV each year? I've been *trying to understand the economics of a CFL team*.


Edmonton Eskimos AGM showcases relatively successful rookie season for CEO Len Rhodes
Gerry Moddejonge Edmonton Sun May 07, 2013

EDMONTON - The bottom line at the Edmonton Eskimos annual general meeting on Tuesday: they didn’t lose money.

Which is good news for president and CEO Len Rhodes, who reported a net profit of $207,060 in his first full season with the organization.

“It’s less than last year, but there were some changes in terms of our structure — one-time adjustments,” Rhodes said. “But (I’m) happy, yes, because we are not-for-profit.

“If we can generate more dollars than the bottom line, it’s about reinvesting in football operations and putting it right back in the community, as well.”

*With total operating expenses of $18,833,674 —its highest in the last three years and 11% more than 2011 — the Eskimos managed to stay in the black.

“We had record revenues last year, but our expenses went up,” Rhodes said.

The club announced a net operating income of just $16,196 last year, which was a considerable drop from $637,806 in 2011*.

Then again, that time around, the Eskimos didn’t donate $465,000 in support of amateur football across northern Alberta, like they did in 2012.

“The Huskies, the Wildcats, the U of A Golden Bears,” Rhodes said. “And our own special group of alumni, which helped build some community support.”

As well, 116,000 pounds of food were donated through the Purolator Tackle Hunger program, while the annual Eskimos Women’s Dinner has new brought in a total of a quarter-million dollars to fight ovarian cancer.

Rhodes was also instrumental in donating 509 pairs of shoes to the Edmonton’s women’s shelter.

“Helping every woman and child going through their doors for an entire year,” he said.

But there were plenty of downs to go with the ups.

“It must be stated that our club did experience a record number of injuries in one single season,” Rhodes said, referring to an increase in football-operations expenses of $31,000 due to nine-game injury expenses.

While those don’t count toward the salary cap, paying their healthy players didn’t exceed the $4.35-million cap.

*The seat-replacement project currently underway at Commonwealth Stadium will see the lower bowl completed by the time the regular season kicks off on Canada Day weekend, with a finish date scheduled at the end of September*.

“Originally, the seat installation was to be finished by the end of this calendar year, so we are actually ahead of schedule,” said Rhodes, who announced the Eskimos extended their lease on the stadium with the City of Edmonton through 2021.

For the 11th consecutive season, the Eskimos led the league in attendance, with an average of 33,975 and a season-high of more than 43,000 on Aug. 10 against the ever-popular Saskatchewan Roughriders.

“Putting a competitive club on the field is what’s going to sell tickets, and we recognize that,” said Rhodes. “We are putting the building blocks in place and I think it’s about continuous improvement.

“The financials will always follow when you have a winning record.”

As for the near future, the addition of tailgate parties before each home game and fan-watch parties, where people can gather at Commonwealth Stadium to watch away games, will be introduced this season.

ON BOARD: Three new members were elected to the club’s board of directors to replace the out-going Allan Sawin, Diane Brickner and Harold Roozen.

In their stead, Janice Agrios, Q.C., partner at Kennedy Agrios LLP; Douglas Cox, CEO of Touchstone Holdings Ltd.; and Marshall Sadd, president and CEO of the Lloyd Sadd Group, will serve a three-year term.

Also on Tuesday, the board elected Bruce Bently as chairman, John Moquin as treasurer and Chris Bruce as secretary.


----------



## elly63

City of Ottawa
*May 10, 2013*

- Next week the new north stands roof will start to be assembled and installed.
- The roof will be built in sections on the stadium field and lifted into place by a special crane.
- Work to build a new storage area at the west end of the stands, and a new loading dock at the east end continues.
- Vertical columns to support the third level are going up at the south stands.
- Another section of the second floor at the south stands will be poured next week.
- Support structures for the main seating bowl of the south stands are being installed.









Pouring more concrete to form the next phase of the south stands.









The north stands viewed through rebar that will give strength to a retaining wall at the east end of the south stands.


----------



## will101

This is just me playing with numbers, so if that's not your thing, feel free to ignore this.

OK, Edmonton had expenses of $18,833,674, and reported a net income of 16,196, so normal gross income was 18,849,870. TV share was $1.875 million ($15 million/8), so even assuming concessions and merchandise totaling a million, that means they were close to $16 million in ticket revenue. With a total attendance of almost 3.4 million, that means the average ticket sold cost a bit less than $50.

Assuming that active player spending was right at the $4.35 million cap, adding 31,000 in injury spending and the 465,000 donation to Alberta sports, that leaves other expenses at just about $14 million. Then you have coaching, office and game day wages, travel and accommodations to road games, health costs, rent at the stadium and the power bill. But does that add up to $14 million, or did I miss something? And how do teams that don't draw as many fans survive? How would rumored expansion teams in Quebec City, Halifax/Moncton or London/Kitchener/Windsor fare? This is what I wonder about.


----------



## elly63

will101 said:


> How would rumored expansion teams in Quebec City, Halifax/Moncton or London/Kitchener/Windsor fare? This is what I wonder about.


I think you're forgetting league and local sponsorships which can be very lucrative. It is rumoured that Montreal (who were doing very well with sponsorships despite the league's smallest stadium at the time) lost a large amount of income because of the business practices of a former executive.

Also, take some of the overly ambitious expansion posts from people here with a grain of salt. The likeliest expansion would be to Atlantic Canada and that is no guarantee (and fraught with many issues) and would be a loooooong way away.


----------



## elly63

will101 said:


> Your statement regarding stadiums is valid, but not the other two. Claiming that a latent fan base does not exist simply because it has never an opportunity to form is a false premise. What are the viewership numbers for the CFL in those areas? That should give an idea of the potential fan base right there.
> 
> And how many times have leaders in the metro areas, or members of the CFL, asked if someone in those areas would be interested in owning a team? It sounds like you are basing that conclusion on the number of wealthy people standing at a downtown intersection yelling, "I have lots of money in my pockets!" Canada is a wealthy country. Canada is a thriving country. _Somebody_ has to have the money.


There is a local committee made up of business people in the Atlantic provinces who report to the CFL commissioner. He himself has stated that there is *NO* ownership interest.

I may have used the wrong word "fanbase" but in areas the size of Moncton and Victoria and including the surrounding areas it would be extremely difficult to sustain an average 25k fans for a lengthy period. Places that have been able to do it ie Regina have a long history of professional or even university calibre football. I won't speak for Victoria but Moncton does not (Mount A isn't Moncton).


----------



## elly63

will101 said:


> Canada is a wealthy country. Canada is a thriving country. _Somebody_ has to have the money.


Maybe in Silicon Valley, but I could name on one hand the number of people who could support this kind of venture. The obvious choice would be the Irvings who do have the financial wherewithal and at least have a sports background (Moncton Wildcats). They have never shown any interest.


----------



## Lord David

elly63 said:


> Why do you pick names out of the air and want to put franchises there? Franchises need three things, ownership, stadium and fanbase. Neither Moncton or Victoria has any of the three. Each has a small stadium that would need millions thrown at them to make them suitable for a permanent tenant and the size of an available fanbase is questionable. AFAIK neither has had anyone step forward showing the money.


Actually, Moncton and Victoria do have a potential stadium.

As for Victoria, putting a team there is potential to produce local rivalry or "derby" with the BC Lions.


----------



## elly63

Lord David said:


> As for Victoria, putting a team there is potential to produce local rivalry or "derby" with the BC Lions.


A new franchise for two games a year?


----------



## isaidso

Walbanger said:


> Besides create the AFL, Victoria has maginalized the rich history of the game outside Victoria to the point it seems that some didn't know the game was played west of Horsham and north of the Murray.
> 
> Aussie Rules has been the dominant sport in WA, SA, NT and Tas for well over 130 years.


It's the perception here as well; I was under the impression that it was a Victorian sport. So are NSW and Queensland the only states where it wasn't dominant? That AFL can prosper with or without NSW/Queensland gives me hope that the CFL can do the same with or without Ontario. Of course the hope is that the CFL can claw its way back to prominence in that province. Ontario (and Quebec) is football's ancestral home after all.



Walbanger said:


> 16 teams is a hell of a lot for countries the size of Australia to Canada when you consider the standards we demand. If the AFL started today there wouldn't be a hope in hell of Melbourne having 9 teams who take more than their fair share of players than Victoria produces at the expense of WA and SA.
> 
> As for the CFL, for most of its 100years+ it has been it's traditional layout as a one team town model. You can't shove 3 more teams into Toronto when not enough Torontonians seem to want one. Halifax and Quebec may be able to host a team within 2 decades. Moncton and Victoria are far more iffy.


Agree with all of that. Btw, Toronto had a number of teams over the years. The Argonauts are the only team still in the CFL. Varsity is going strong, 152 years later but plays in the CIS (Canada's version of the NCAA). The first documented football game was one played on its campus in 1861.

Shoving 3 more teams back in Toronto won't happen, but I would like to see the re-establishment of a second team in Toronto in my life time. If football can go into such a drastic free fall in Toronto, it can go the other way too. 

*Present and Former Toronto Football Clubs*

- Toronto Amateur Athletic (aka the Torontos)
- Toronto Victorias
- Toronto Indians
- Toronto Parkdale
- Balmy Beach
- Toronto Rowing and Athletic
- Toronto Hurricanes (air force team)
- University of Toronto Varsity Blues 
- Toronto Argonauts

Btw, I'd argue that Quebec City and Halifax are already at the point that they could support a CFL team. The issue has always been lack of a proper stadium and the right ownership group stepping forward. Quebec City's university team (Laval) draw from 14,000-18,000/game; that's not far off what Montreal and Toronto draw for pro football.


----------



## isaidso

will101 said:


> Your statement regarding stadiums is valid, but not the other two. Claiming that a latent fan base does not exist simply because it has never an opportunity to form is a false premise. What are the viewership numbers for the CFL in those areas? That should give an idea of the potential fan base right there.
> 
> And how many times have leaders in the metro areas, or members of the CFL, asked if someone in those areas would be interested in owning a team? It sounds like you are basing that conclusion on the number of wealthy people standing at a downtown intersection yelling, "I have lots of money in my pockets!" Canada is a wealthy country. Canada is a thriving country. _Somebody_ has to have the money.


Moncton is very small and its corporate base is miniscule. That said, anyone arguing that it doesn't have a fan base hasn't ever been to the Maritimes. This is a part of the country that draws 3000+ fans for *high school* football. There's no place in the whole country that can say that. Whether Moncton could draw 25,000 fans 9 times/year is debatable, but people are far too dismissive of the Maritimes.

The number of super rich in the Maritimes is quite limited, but an ownership group wouldn't necessarily need to be from the Maritimes. Braley owns the Toronto Argonauts and BC Lions: he's a Montrealer that was raised in Hamilton.


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## c-way-dude

elly63 said:


> Who?


CFL Commissioner Mark Cohon was talking enthusiastically about Quebec City at the State of the League Address at last year's Grey Cup.
In an interview (done a few days after signing the new tv deal) with TSN 1050 radio, Cohon said the new television deal was bringing potential owners "out of the woodwork".


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> Moncton is very small and its corporate base is miniscule. That said, anyone arguing that it doesn't have a fan base hasn't ever been to the Maritimes. This is a part of the country that draws 3000+ fans for *high school* football. There's no place in the whole country that can say that. Whether Moncton could draw 25,000 fans 9 times/year is debatable, but people are far too dismissive of the Maritimes.
> 
> The number of super rich in the Maritimes is quite limited, but an ownership group wouldn't necessarily need to be from the Maritimes. Braley owns the Toronto Argonauts and BC Lions: he's a Montrealer that was raised in Hamilton.


I've lived in Moncton on and off for years and you're making the 3000 fans sound like Friday Night Lights. It's happened, but not on a regular basis, usually it's in conjunction with an event like the Touchdown Atlantic promotion.

As for away ownership, that won't fly down here. You might get lucky with a good owner like Bob Wetenhall but the Maritimes is a different market. The Horn Chens, Gliebermans and Feteriks won't work, which is exactly the perception that the new Ottawa owners are fighting. Local ownership and understanding the area is key.


----------



## elly63

New Blue stadium lives up to the hype; now it's up to you
Ed Tait Winnipeg Free Press May 17, 2013










We begin today with a confession: Yours truly is a sucker for gimmicks, easily distracted by shiny objects and often influenced by advertising hype.

An example: Last winter we bought an ergonomic toilet seat which featured "injection moulded polypropylene construction." Sounds amazing, right?

The reality? We spent about $50 on a plastic toilet seat no different than the old one.

And so all this was rolling around in my little brain as I headed over to Investors Group Field Thursday morning for my first tour of the joint by Blue Bombers media relations director Darren Cameron.

My intention was to view the facility with clear and objective eyes.

And my initial take?

The place is a freaking palace. A jewel. And it's going to perfectly complete the sporting facility trifecta in this town that already includes Shaw Park and the MTS Centre.

Granted, this comes from a guy who spent 20-plus years at Canad Inns Stadium daily stepping around pigeon guano, trudging up crumbling stairs and cramming his six-foot frame into a seat to watch practice; a guy who cringed every time he stepped into the dungeon-like visitors' dressing room, gagged at the stench that forever hung in the director's lounge or watched water cascade down through stained ceiling tiles into the office complex whenever there was a downpour.

I've sliced my hand open trying to open the rickety windows in the old press box, needed a front-end realignment on my car trying to navigate the craters in the parking lot and once -- as the last man in the building after deadline -- had to roll under a metal security fence in a giant dip in the concrete just to be able to head home.

So excuse me for not being all that nostalgic about seeing the old place meet the wrecking ball.

But the new facility will have none of that run-down, lipstick-on-a-pig feel to it when it opens next month. Granted, there were construction crews all over the place on Thursday frantically working to put the finishing touches on the place and there are a lot of cosmetic touches still to be completed. Still, it's easy to see the Bombers' new home is modern and state-of-the-art in every facet.

We toured the football-operations department first. Every coach has his own office, there is a coaches' conference boardroom and a theatre large enough to seat 100 players. The locker-room is at least twice as large as their previous digs, the spacious new weight room and training facility makes the old look like something out of The Flintstones and equipment gurus Brad Fotty and Kevin Todd were like kids on Christmas morning while organizing their gear for training camp.

A solid touch was the Bombers finally reaching out and recognizing more of their history in and around the locker-room. There are 10 life-size photos of the Grey Cup along the hallway, including the date and score of the team's championships. Empty spots along the same area are already designated to recognize the franchise's greatest players. Inside the player lounge, legendary defensive-line coach Richard Harris is remembered as his daily message to the troops dominates one wall -- "Morning, Big Blue."

From field level, the facility seems enormous, but still somehow intimate. The two scoreboards weren't lit up on Thursday, but are huge. The seats are wide and feature cupholders, there is lots of leg room and not a bad view in the house. Many, many moons ago, I sat in the last row of Winnipeg Stadium with my late, great dad watching the Bombers disembowel Vince Ferragamo and the Montreal Alouettes. Remembering that, we ambled up to the last row of Investors Group Field and I can tell you the view from there is astonishing.

The private boxes offer outstanding vantage points and the concession area will be part of an open concourse that will allow fans to still watch the game, not disappear for long stretches, as at Canad Inns Stadium.

During the tour I must have used the word "unbelievable" at least 50 times. But "stunning" also fits. And "incredible," too. Most of all, I was left with a surreal feeling, a sense that the Bombers franchise has really gone from the outhouse to the penthouse.

Understandably, there will be grumblings when the stadium opens -- most likely from some of my colleagues in the media as the press box is situated at about the 15-yard line, from those that don't like the parking set-up and from that segment of our population that bitches about sunny days.

But as we exited the playing field near the end of the tour, I turned to Mr. Cameron, my tour guide, and said there was only one thing missing right now: fans. The photos I took of the stands and posted on my Twitter account don't do the stadium justice, frankly, and right now the building lacks the soul it gets from its customers and Bombers faithful.

"Just wait until our home opener," said Cameron with a grin. "We've got some big things planned and this place will be really rocking and really impressive."

We're already sold. And the fun hasn't even started yet.


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## timo9

:duck:


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## Guest

Delightful stadium. The Wrigley of the CFL.


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## koolio

That is now the best football stadium in the country. Should be an amazing atmosphere during those frigid, late-season and post-season games.


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## Calvin W

One thing with Winnipeg's new stadium. It looks like you won't be able to see the corner of the endzone. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but it looks like from the upper deck you will not see all of the endzone....


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## elly63

I don't think that is an issue. Reporters and fans who have toured the building and sat in the last rows to check out the sightlines have not mentioned it.


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## elly63

Investors Group Field Construction Photos 
Photos taken by PrairieView School of Photography


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## Guest

Love that last image. Seating color looks so classy.


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## isaidso

Only 6 more weeks till kickoff!  

The sunken bowl alone would make a good template for stadia construction in other Canadian markets. There are about 18,000-21,000 seats in that tier alone. Since it's sunken, one could easily add a grand stand on one side when demand dictates, then the same on the other side 20-30 years down the road.


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## Neda Say

Somebody will put some blue paint on these concrete walls, right?


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## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> New Blue stadium lives up to the hype; now it's up to you
> Ed Tait Winnipeg Free Press May 17, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok look at the sideline in the endzone. Unless they do the angled endzones, you can't see the corner in the endzone from this position. Endzones are 20 yards deep so some fans will have a partial view of the endzones....


----------



## Welkin

elly63 said:


> I've lived in Moncton on and off for years and you're making the 3000 fans sound like Friday Night Lights. It's happened, but not on a regular basis, usually it's in conjunction with an event like the Touchdown Atlantic promotion.
> 
> *As for away ownership, that won't fly down here*. You might get lucky with a good owner like Bob Wetenhall but the Maritimes is a different market. The Horn Chens, Gliebermans and Feteriks won't work, which is exactly the perception that the new Ottawa owners are fighting. Local ownership and understanding the area is key.


Are you saying that if someone from Toronto or even down in the States was willing to step up and provide the needed funding to get a CFL team going, that the locals and businesses in the Maritimes would not support that team? That it has to be local ownership or nothing? Wow, they are going to be waiting a lot longer for a CFL team if local ownership is part of the criteria.


----------



## elly63

I'm not saying that it wouldn't work (as I gave the example of Wetenhall) but it's less likely to work. Think about what you're saying, would it be a good thing if there was nobody locally that was interested in owning the team. 

The Montreal situation is different in how Wetenhall acquired it and its worth to a potential new local owner now. What about when the away owner gets tired of his toy and wants to sell. There are far more examples in the CFL's past that are not like Wetenhall than are like him.

Also judging by experience, I would expect the CFL does want local ownership (ie Ottawa) and that will be one of the main criteria for a franchise. That's where we agree, it's gonna be a long time.


----------



## carnifex2005

Exactly elly63. The only city that could reasonably get a team would be Quebec City and that would be at least a decade away.


----------



## elly63

carnifex2005 said:


> Exactly elly63. The only city that could reasonably get a team would be Quebec City and that would be at least a decade away.


I think we are at cross purposes here. If the Irvings got behind a team tomorrow, it could work. But they have not shown any interest. Nor have the McCains or the Olands (and they have that little family murder thing going on, so rule them out).

I don't think Quebec has any serious interest at all. They love their Rouge et Or and I haven't heard about any popular groundswell towards the CFL.

The Maritimes on the other hand go back to the unfinished business of the Atlantic Schooners and the various Touchdown Atlantics in Halifax and Moncton. If they can get an owner and a stadium and develop a siege mentality like Sask, it would be close but it could work.


----------



## elly63

will101 said:


> I've been trying to understand the economics of a CFL team.


Highest-paying teams in the world

Check out the bottom of the list. Interesting that CFL teams have a larger payroll than most MLS and some SPL teams


----------



## will101

elly63 said:


> Highest-paying teams in the world
> 
> Check out the bottom of the list. Interesting that CFL teams have a larger payroll than most MLS and some SPL teams


That's quite a list. I'm going to be working on that for a while.

How do you drive a numbers freak crazy? Give him a list like this, and tell him there is a hidden truth in there. Good thing I'm already crazy.


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## elly63

will101 said:


> How do you drive a numbers freak crazy


Now that I think about it, the quarterback makes significantly more than the other players. A good quarterback is making 400k + thus driving down the average salary (on that list) for the rest of the guys.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Update on the 2015 Pan-Am Aquatics Centre


----------



## isaidso

Unfortunately, the eye is drawn to the nasty row of brick boxes across the street. I suppose that area, more than others, needs something attractive. Hopefully, this will help.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Fox Sports writer Jon Paul Morosi floats the idea about MLB returning to Montreal

http://msn.foxsports.com/video/MLB?vid=2f55e51f-c384-4f30-9c7d-e730106b58a8


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## elly63

Cohon challenges Maritimes to support new CFL team
Mark Cohon tells Moncton he wants a Maritime team within his mandate
CBC News May 17, 2013

The Maritimes could support a Canadian Football League team and could see one take the field in the future, according to CFL commissioner Mark Cohon.

Cohon was in Moncton on Thursday to promote Touchdown Atlantic, a regular season game between the Montreal Alouettes and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats on Sept. 21.

Cohon challenged people at a Moncton news conference to help him bring a team to the Maritimes.

"There's always been a dream of people involved in the CFL to think about a 10th team and for that to work I think you need to get the entire community behind it, so that's just a little bit of challenge to get people thinking," he said.

Cohon said he isn't buying the argument the Maritime region does not have a strong enough business base to support a team of its own.

"I think that we could probably get a couple of the national sponsors of the CFL to back this," said Cohon.

"If you could unite the country through the CFL, if you could bring the Maritimes into the rest of Canada through the power of sport, I think it's a powerful tool for this region to create pride."

*Cohon says groundwork needs to be laid*

*Cohon said bringing a CFL team to the Maritime region is still a long way off.
*
Cohon said the costs of bringing a CFL team to the Maritime must still be studied.

He wants leaders to begin looking at options for a stadium, including what it would cost to upgrade the Moncton stadium.

"We'd have to do an analysis of how much that would cost," he said.

"We have to look at is there potential of a stadium being built in Halifax, regardless of what city it's in I think the real question is how do you get people together to say that this is good for the Maritimes."

In the past, Cohon has estimated *the Moncton Stadium would likely need $100 million in upgrades to meet the league’s standards*.

He said on Thursday a team would generate great excitement and momentum for the entire region whether it's in Moncton or Halifax.

"Imagine almost a million people every week watching your team on TV," he said.

*Province to invest $100,000*

Premier David Alward says the provincial investment of $100,000 will pay off for New Brunswick taxpayers.

Premier David Alward said the provincial government will invest $100,000 in the Touchdown Atlantic game for marketing with the City of Moncton.

Alward said it is an investment that makes sense for taxpayers.

"The last time the CFL was in Moncton it generated some $6 million of economic benefits to the southeast part of New Brunswick," he said on Thursday.

"The province of New Brunswick will gain more than the dollars we contribute back just in the taxes from this event so it's a great event, it brings excellence to Atlantic Canada."

Moncton is investing $180,000 in the game.

Jacques Dubé, Moncton's city manager, said $150,000 will cover the costs of bringing the two teams to Moncton, $25,000 for protecting the track at the stadium and $5,000 putting up the extra stands.


----------



## elly63

City of Ottawa
May 24, 2013

- Inside the south stands, the contractor has begun pouring the basement floor
- More columns and walls have been built to support the third floor of the south stands while a large section of second floor has already been poured
- Structural support elements for the seating bowls on the second level in the south stands are being installed
- The new roof for the north stands is being assembled in sections on the stadium field









Building a new pedestrian ramp at the east end of the north stands









The stadium seen from above is undergoing a big transformation as the north stands get a new look and the new south stands continue to take shape









The new roof for the north stands is being assembled on the stadium field and will soon be lifted into place with the help of a special, mobile crane









Supports to form the third floor of the new south stands are going up at the east end of the stands and moving west









The stadium is a busy place as the north stands roof is assembled and work on the third floor for the new south stands continues


----------



## will101

Is this being readied for 2014 or 2015?


----------



## carnifex2005

will101 said:


> Is this being readied for 2014 or 2015?


2014.


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## will101

carnifex2005 said:


> 2014.


Oh.


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## ChesterCopperpot

http://www.toronto2015.org/lang/en/...r-toronto-2015-games-already-10-complete.html



> To celebrate the new stadium, the City of Hamilton is collecting sports memorabilia and other items from residents and local sport heroes for a time capsule, which will be installed in the stadium during construction. The initial item added to the capsule was a medal from the first major international competition ever held in Canada: the 1930 British Empire Games.
> 
> The participant medal was donated to the city by Edna (Teddy) Robinson, a trailblazing educator in Hamilton, shortly before her death in 2005. The medal belonged to her father, M.M. (Bobby) Robinson, one of Hamilton’s great sports editors who founded what later become the Commonwealth Games on the same ground where the new stadium for the Pan Am Games is rising. At the time she donated the medal, she asked city staff to ensure people would always remember her father’s impact on sport in Canada.
> 
> The Hamilton stadium time capsule will contain memorabilia marking milestones of the former Ivor Wynne Stadium and the development of the new stadium and surrounding neighbourhood now and in the future.
> 
> Other time capsule contributions from partners supporting the TORONTO 2015 Games included a newspaper front page celebrating Toronto’s winning bid for the 2015 Pan Am/Parapan Am Games, a Team Ontario soccer kit and a book celebrating the history of Ivor Wynne Stadium.


----------



## elly63

Panned stadium is perfection to Bratina
Mayor says the much-criticized sports facility is "the ideal stadium for Hamilton"
Emma Reilly thespec.com May 24, 2013









This artist's rendering shows a pedestrian area to be located at the southern end of a new proposed stadium for Hamilton.

Mayor Bob Bratina says the widely panned Pan Am stadium is "perfect." "This is one of the most positive things that has ever happened for the City of Hamilton," Bratina said Friday. "This is a great blessing — it's the ideal stadium for Hamilton." 

Bratina said that without the 2015 Pan Am Games, councillors would have been forced to turn to taxpayers for extra cash to rebuild the aging, city-owned Ivor Wynne stadium. "There are some who said it should have arches or something fancy. Sure, we could — Winnipeg has a stadium for $200 million. Ours is $150 million. So, if you want to go ask the taxpayers for another $50 million to put, you know, arches, go ahead," he said. "I'm not going to ask for it, because you know why? This stadium is perfect. I just can't wait for opening day." 

Bratina made the comments Friday afternoon at the official kickoff of the Pan Am stadium construction. The event, attended by Pan Am CEO Ian Troop, Federal Minister of State (Sport) and MP Bal Gosal, and MPP Michael Chan, Ontario Minister Responsible for the Pan Am Games. *The afternoon's festivities included a native smudge ceremony to clear the site of any negative energy*  and a display of sports memorabilia — including a medal from the 1930 British Empire Games — that will be placed in a stadium time capsule. 

Though the event marked the start of construction on the $145.7-million sports facility, *the project is already 10-per-cent complete*. Foundations have been poured and crews are preparing to build the structural steel bones that will support the stadium. 

However, the design — which is on the cusp of gaining council's final approval — has been widely disparaged. Councillors have labelled it bland, nondescript, and disappointing, while the community has criticized its similarity to Ivor Wynne. However, councillors say that due to tight timelines and the multiple parties involved in the planning, including the province, the federal government, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and the city, there's little they can do to influence the design at this point. 

Troop says that despite the criticism, Hamiltonians will ultimately be pleased with the final product. "The seats are wider, they've got great sightlines, it maintains the intimacy of Ivor Wynne, we've pivoted it 90 degrees so it will be more player-friendly — so I think there's lots of very strong elements," he said. "I think it's going to be a great stadium for this community."


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## elly63

Inaugural event at Investor's Group Field Winnipeg one of the venues for the 2015 WWC.









Melissa Tait / Winnipeg Free Press


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## koolio

Wow it looks like a smaller version of Qwest Field from that vantage point. Very nice!


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## GarfieldPark

elly63 said:


> Highest-paying teams in the world
> 
> Check out the bottom of the list. Interesting that CFL teams have a larger payroll than most MLS and some SPL teams


^^ Of course they've got about twice as many players. (At least for MLS teams. I don't even know what SPL is.)


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## elly63

GarfieldPark said:


> Of course they've got about twice as many players. (At least for MLS teams. I don't even know what SPL is.)


No, I think that indicates how much revenue is coming in with the payroll being a percentage. Lesser numbers of players should theoretically make a higher yearly wage with a similar payroll.


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## koolio

The Argos would be stupid to build a stadium in the suburbs. They don't have enough fans in the region as it is. Don't see how making their games less accessible will help the team in any way, shape or form. What happened to the idea of expanding Lamport Stadium?


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## ChesterCopperpot

New Ivor Wynne expected to be unveiled as Tim Hortons Field at an announcement tomorrow. There's due to be and updated design for the stadium unveiled as well.


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## ChesterCopperpot

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/3889891-goodbye-ivor-wynne-hello-tim-hortons-field/



> Among the new features:
> 
> •Four concourses, including two that will allow fans to see the playing field even when not in their seats.
> 
> •Two raised plazas in each end zone with a sports bar theme.
> 
> •Eighty per cent of seats between the goal lines with a minimum seat width of 21 inches, with larger seats in the club and suite sections. (The Rogers Centre seats are 19 inches wide.)
> 
> •A new scoreboard that's almost 25 per cent larger than the one at Ivor Wynne.
> 
> •A total of 1,010 club seats with two themed lounges, including one honouring former Ticat greats. The primary club lounge area will have a 100-yard view of the field.
> 
> •Six elevators and fully accessible seating throughout the stadium at all price points


----------



## canadiancreed

hate the name (but I hate corporate naming period so...) but it looks pretty sharp. Is it being put back in the same spot as Ivor Wynne was?


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## ChesterCopperpot

Yes - it's been rotated 90 degrees though


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## will101

I like it. It's simple, and while not nearly as fancy as Winnipeg, it's designed with all of the spectators in mind. And plenty of room for additional Grey Cup seating or permanent expansion. This will make two new venues that the league can take pride in.

I did have one question: it said the main club lounge would have a '100 yard view of the field'. Aren't Canadian fields 150 yards long? Between the end lines, of course. This actually strikes me as a bit of a design flaw.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Updated video presentation of Tim Hortons Field

http://timhortonsfield.ca/main/

and updated pictures of the interiors - lots of pictures in here

http://timhortonsfield.ca/gallery/

What the Grey Cup would look like


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## elly63

Milton: Tims and Tabbies a perfect pair
Needs to increase game-day income
Steve Milton the spec.com July 12/2013

Start working on those nicknames. 

Maybe it'll be the Doughnut Box. Or the Double-Double. A Dozen To Go? Tim's House? Or, in November, the Ice Capp? And does the coach become Cold Stone Kent Austin?

Whatever sobriquet eventually comes to symbolize the marriage of the CFL's Hamilton Tiger-Cats and Tim Hortons doughnuts through the naming rights of the new Pan Am stadium, the best description will always be this: A Natural Fit.

So natural that the iconic coffee shop chain is not just stepping out of its previous comfort zone, it's leaping. It's not Rogers, or Bell, or any of the other go-to corporate biggies that love to see their company logo plastered all over a sports stadium. Tim Hortons doesn't do that. Or didn't, until now.

Image-wise, it has always sought to be about helping the needs of the greater community and it has returned to its original community to plant its most visible flag.

This is the union of two businesses-turned-institutions that have transcended the places they were born — within walking distance of each other in Hamilton's industrial east end — to become national brands.

There was already a commercial relationship between Tim Hortons and the Ticats through signage, local franchisees and grassroots football programs. But this naming-rights deal — it's still unknown how much the doughnut chain will pay in the 10-year arrangement, but it is certainly a significant amount if the Cats could guarantee the city a $750,000 annual cut — puts it on another plane altogether. It dwarfs, but will also tie together and enhance, several initiatives the two parties already share. They will, at every turn, be marketing each other.

While the company went semi-international years ago, this partnership is a public acknowledgement of where it came from, a symbolic message that it is not a rootless, anonymous, cash inhaler. Hortons, like the Cats, is investing at home. Hortons, like the Cats, sees itself as provider to not just a certain segment of the population but to its entire depth and breadth.

The town team partnering with the corner store should have a positive, if difficult to measure, impact on Hamilton's often scarred image. When the more detailed stadium plans and programming features are introduced by the Cats on Friday afternoon, the city's corporate logo will be highly visible on the new structure, a reminder that Timmy's and Tabbies spring from the same local womb.

It will also be a reminder that the new stadium, despite its fractious beginnings, should be a place of union. This is what we have, this is where it is and this is where it will always be. The Scott Farm, the Fields at Scott Park, Civic Stadium, Ivor Wynne Stadium and now Tim Hortons Field — different names but already a century (minus this one Guelphian year) of sport in the same spot, with decades yet to come.

Same spot does not mean same stadium. You could not possibly recreate the intimate assets of Ivor Wynne, because that stadium evolved in chunks, almost organically. And you would not want to recreate any of its horrors.

Although Tim Hortons Field will have a smaller seating capacity than Ivor Wynne did — there's clearly a limit-the-supply, increase-the-demand concept in play — its footprint is nearly 50 per cent larger. At seven storeys tall, it will be visible from much farther away

The gathering areas beyond the end zones and in the concourses — which provide views of the field, not just wall — are great concepts. They hearken to what Ivor Wynne and Civic Stadium provided for this city: a de facto town square.

*Many longtime CFL fans may still be upset that the stadium will not be a bowl, except for Grey Cup games when extra seating will be constructed beyond each end zone. But bowls are really for American football. The Canadian field occupies better than 3,300 square yards more than an American field, so it's far more important from a sightline perspective to have as many seats as possible on the sidelines, between the end zones. And 80 per cent of the new building's seats are exactly there.*

Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young has lost millions of dollars in the near decade since rescuing the CFL team from its 2003 bankruptcy. And, since stadium talk started, the Tiger-Cats have made it no secret they need to increase their game-day income. Nor have they hidden their attempts to extend their geographic and demographic reach into richer, younger areas.

There is potential for a public rift, real or imagined, in that attempt. But the bitter truth is that, without the chance for that extra income, some of which will have to come from new and perhaps non-traditional fans, the Ticats would no longer be in this town. So, while most of the stadium areas will be accessible to all ticket holders there are a few — lower-patio areas, private boxes and the like — that are exclusive to those sitting in the immediate vicinity. For a price, of course.

In a way, that is another similarity between Tim Hortons and the Tiger-Cats. They both must negotiate an extremely fine and difficult balance between going upscale to answer evolving market conditions and maintaining and respecting their long-term and most loyal customers.

Whatever the name and whatever the configuration, the football stadium has always been Hamilton's common denominator, the Great Leveller in a city where there are disparate lifestyles and income levels.

Just like a cup of coffee and a doughnut.

Tim Hortons Field analysis


----------



## elly63




----------



## elly63

koolio said:


> The Argos would be stupid to build a stadium in the suburbs. They don't have enough fans in the region as it is. Don't see how making their games less accessible will help the team in any way, shape or form. What happened to the idea of expanding Lamport Stadium?


As Braley said, they've done the demographics (and by my implication they're going to go where their fans are) I don't believe there ever was a formal plan to expand Lamport. Sherwood Schwarz looked into it briefly


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## Otto Racecar

Very nice stadium. It looks very similar to the stadium the university of akron built a few years ago.


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## elly63

City of Ottawa
July 16, 2013

- The north stands roof structure is now complete
- Cleaning and repairs to the precast concrete in the stands continues.
- At the south stands, angled supports for the top tiers of seating are being built.
- The structure of the building is nearing completion and the contractor has started to remove some of the yellow posts, used for bracing.









Looking out from under the north stands new roof structure, the shape of the south stands is nearing completion.









The roof structure over the north stands is complete, and helps to give the stands a new look.









With the bracing posts removed from the east end of the south stands, the new structure is becoming visible.









The curving shape and height of the new south stands is now evident.


----------



## elly63

Frank Clair Stadium Renovations In Full Swing At Lansdowne
FrontPage Media Group July 12th 2013









Lansdowne Park renovations are in full swing this summer. Every corner of the 40+ acre park is being utilized, as focus has now turned from The Horticulture Building to the new Frank Clair Stadium design.

CFL is set to return in 2014 and Frank Clair Stadium will be the new home of the Ottawa Red Blacks CFL franchise. Months of work has taken place below ground level for *parking that can pack in 1400 vehicles*. Progress is now going upward and an ever-changing skyline will continue into 2014 and beyond.









Frank Clair Stadium’s North Side stands.









Frank Clair Stadium









Lansdowne Park, in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, bordered by the Rideau Canal.

Lansdowne Park Final large concrete pour starts Tuesday, July 30
Lansdowne Park July 22, 2013

The Lansdowne redevelopment contractor plans to pour a large foundation slab beginning on Tuesday, July 30 in the southwest corner of the site, near the Bank Street Bridge. The pour is planned to start at approximately 3p.m. on Tuesday, and will finish around 7p.m. on Wednesday, July 31.

This is the last continuous concrete pour during the construction at Lansdowne. The concrete for the foundation must be poured all at one time in order to ensure the overall strength and longevity of the slab.


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## elly63

City of Ottawa
July 24, 2013

- Scaffolding and preparation work has started to paint the large metal beams in the north stands.
- At the south stands, bleachers for the top of the stands are being built of concrete.
- The structure of the building is nearing completion and the contractor has started to install waterproofing and rough-ins for mechanical and plumbing systems on the first level.









On the first level of the south stands, formwork has been removed, and electrical and mechanical systems are starting to be installed.









A view of the work on the stadium from above.









Work to clean and repair the concrete in the north stands is underway.









At the east end of the south stands, waterproofing is being installed at the first level.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Steel being erected at *Tim Hortons Field*


----------



## elly63

Where will the Argos play next?
Ryan Wolstat,Toronto Sun July 26, 2013

TORONTO - Earlier this week, Toronto Mayor Rob Ford, recently back from a trip to CFL hotbeds Winnipeg and Regina, mused about Toronto’s need for a new football stadium to house the Argonauts.

“That’s what you call football,” Ford said during a press conference, extolling the virtues of Investors Group Field and Bombers fans in the ‘Peg. “There (are) 35,000 fans dedicated to their team. I’m not saying we’re not. We need a football stadium in the city, bad.”

Ford, a massive football supporter, said he will do “everything possible” to bring a “made-for-football” stadium to Toronto.

While the Argos currently play at the Rogers Centre, the cavernous stadium is oft-knocked for its lack of a football atmosphere (except during the Grey Cup, when it is full) and Argonauts executive chairman and CEO Chris Rudge told the Toronto Sun the team could play elsewhere following the conclusion of its upcoming lease agreement.

“It’s no secret that this will probably be our last lease with the Rogers Centre and so we are in the process of evaluating what our next steps might be,” Rudge said.

Councillor Karen Stintz, who attends many Argonauts games as well as the past two Grey Cups and the upcoming one in Regina, said it would be more economical and her preference to make going to the Rogers Centre a better experience, instead of building something new.

“I would find it interesting to work on how we fill the existing stadium,” Stintz said. “My preference. Would be to get people interested in football again in Toronto (at the current home). The spirit in Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and even B.C. is so amazing, it would be great to get that kind of spirit in Toronto.”

But Rudge says the Argos have tried just about everything and a smaller, more intimate new venue is the likeliest tonic, considering the success other CFL clubs like Montreal have had in going that route.

Rudge said a stadium that seats a minimum of 25,000 people, would require an “approximately $150 million investment.”

Rudge added: “I know the stadium in Winnipeg was over $200 million, but it’s a real jewel, that’s for sure. It’s a spectacular facility.”

While the Argonauts could again resume talks with Mississauga about a new home — as they did back in 2000 before talks fell apart — we take a look at five locations within the Toronto city limits that could work:

*BMO FIELD*

The Argos previously held talks to share BMO Field with Toronto FC, but those broke down.

However, this still is probably the site that makes the most sense. Widening the field for football and finding a way to keep the grass pristine enough for it to be shared both by the Reds and the Argos would be immense challenges. If they could ever be worked out, however ...

According to Rudge, the team knows what it is looking for in a new home:

“Transportation issues, access to the GO train and the subway would certainly be highly advantageous,” Rudge said.

A return to the Exhibition Grounds, where the Argos played from 1959-1988, would satisfy all of those requirements.

Toronto Councillor Mark Grimes, the chairman of Exhibition Place said he has been in talks with Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. for some time and hopes the Argos will be included in MLSE’s stated plan of renovating BMO Field.

“For the Argos that’s the place we’ve got to look,” Grimes said.

“The province and the federal government just put a lot of money into BMO and the Pan Am (Games). To me, the smartest thing to do is BMO Field.”

*ONTARIO PLACE*

While the location isn’t quite as good and would require far more work and money compared to modifying BMO Field, Ontario Place hits most of the checkmarks as well.

The location is nearly as convenient and it is accessible to major traffic routes and close to a lot of parking, things Rudge said will be key to any plan.

The ample parking means lots of room for tailgating at Ontario Place.

Since the theme park was shut down last year, only the Molson Amphitheatre, the Atlantis entertainment venue and the marina remain open. The government currently is redeveloping Ontario Place with a targeted completion date of 2017. A new stadium might slow down those plans but it would seem to be a good fit near the Amphitheatre and would look great right on the water. It would be an easy area to turn going to an Argos game into an event.

While the Argos aren’t ruling out any options, Rudge said that a downtown, or near-downtown site would be the most appealing.

Ontario Place is one of the few viable options.

*VARSITY STADIUM*

The history is rich at Varsity Stadium.

The Argonauts have called it home three times (including from 1925-58) and almost made it four, before a deal with the University of Toronto fell apart.

Can things be revived? There are still good relations on both sides, the Argos played a pre-season game in front of 6,000+ fans at Varsity this year.

Parking would be an issue but access by TTC is easy and convenient and the walk-up crowd number would likely increase considerably.

As the Sun’s Steve Buffery wrote after the pre-season game: “The Argos played at the old Varsity Stadium for (parts of) 50 years, until 1958, when the franchise moved to the old Exhibition Stadium. And all these years later, it still seems like an ideal spot for CFL football.”

Still, the current version, built in 2007, is far smaller than CFL standards for a reason — many local residents opposed the idea of a big stadium in the area and presumably would oppose a revitalization of the project. And since it was only re-done six years ago, it’s also unlikely another remake could happen anytime soon.

The dream of the Argos playing in a stadium at York University also failed to come to fruition, with the current venue being built there for the 2015 Pan American Games deemed too small by the Argos.

*DOWNSVIEW*

Another site that the Argos have been connected to, this time in the northwest part of the city.

Space to build and parking definitely wouldn’t be issues, Toronto FC built a $21 million training facility on 14 acres of land there.

However, getting there could be a problem for many fans of the Double Blue.

While accesible via transit, service changes would be needed to move the thousands of people that would be headed up that way for games. Traffic on game days also would be considerable.

There’s also the issue of getting approval from Canada Lands Co., the Crown property management corporation that is in charge of Downsview Park.

Ford also threw out the idea of Woodbine Racetrack as a potential site, but that seems like an even more unlikely spot than Downsview, considering traffic also would be an issue, and likely a far bigger one, since it doesn’t share the TTC access that Downsview does.

*PORT LANDS*

Like many areas of the city, the Port Lands have been bustling with development recently.

Redevelopment has been ripe in the largely abandoned, former waterfront industrial area and that’s going to continue.

Would a new home for the Argos make sense in the Port Lands? Possibly. Transit to the area is OK and improving, but not as good as to the Exhibition-area locations. It’s simple to get to by car though.

As with Ontario Place and BMO, a stadium near the water could make for a beautiful venue.

But it might take some time to get off of the ground. And the thinking is a project there would be quite expensive, at a time where the city has many other more pressing things to spend its money on.

A potential sports complex featuring four stacked ice rinks has been talked about for years now (complete with $30 million or so in federal funding), along with a casino, but neither have emerged.

*ARGO HOMES*

The Argos have called four venues home:

Rosedale Field (Mt. Pleasant Ave. and MacLennan Ave.)

1874-1897, 1908-1915
Capacity 10,000

Varsity Stadium (Bloor St. and Devonshire Place)

1898–1907, 1916–24, 1925–58
Capacity 16,000

Exhibition Stadium (Princess Blvd. and Ontario Dr.)

1959-1988
Capacity 54,000

SkyDome/Rogers Centre (Front St. and Blue Jays Way)

1989-present
Capacity 52,230


----------



## elly63

Regina’s new stadium could pay tribute to former Grain Show Building
Marco Vigliotti Metro Regina Aug 1/2013

The design of Regina’s new stadium and future home of the Saskatchewan Roughriders might pay homage to a prominent building that formerly occupied its planned site at Evraz Place.

*The city’s proposed stadium development regulations say planners should consider incorporating “historical architectural references” to the old Grain Show Building at the exhibition grounds in the design of the $278-million facility to replace aging Mosaic Stadium*.










“It’s always good to reflect your heritage,” Mayor Michael Fougere said on Thursday of the proposed regulations.

“That’s part of the spirit of the development.”

Constructed for the World’s Grain Exhibition in 1933, the Grain Show Building was destroyed by two fires in 1955 and 2009.

*However, any architectural nod to the former Evraz Place mainstay is not explicitly required. The proposed characteristics are intended as guidelines for planning staff*.

“The guidelines are intended to be flexible and open to interpretation, rather than mandatory and rigid like a development standard,” states a report by city planning director Diana Hawryluk and Jason Carlston, deputy city manager of community planning and development.

“This approach will allow evaluation of how the building performs and interfaces with its surroundings while providing flexibility for individual expression.”

While the 33,500-seat stadium’s design remains far from certain, the city’s planning commission has begun laying the necessary groundwork to bring the facility to Evraz Place.

During its meeting on Wednesday, the commission approved a rezoning of a section of land bordering the Canadian Pacific Railway line to accommodate the future stadium.

The commission also amended the city’s zoning bylaw to allow the facility to be located on a public service property, which is the current designation for Evraz Place.

City council will discuss both moves for possible approval at its Aug. 26 meeting.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Here comes the upper deck in Hamilton


----------



## isaidso

Commonwealth Stadium with its new wider seats and reduced capacity.









(http://photos.edmonton.ca/Buildings...Stadium/i-RxvQfDc/0/XL/Panoramic Seats-XL.jpg)


----------



## koolio

So are they ever going to make the end zone stands a tad bit more elegant? Those tarps on one end the depressing looking patio on the other end are a bit of an eyesore.


----------



## Bobby3

Thanks.

Yeah, it'd be great for FCE if they could build a similar one.


----------



## elly63

City of Ottawa
November 29, 2013

- The new roof on the north stands is almost complete.
- Footings are being dug for a new pedestrian bridge on the east end of the stadium that will span from the main concourse to the berm.
- At the south stands, work is underway to form and build the base for the seating bowl at the front of the stands.
- Work continues to assemble the Veil that wraps around the stands.
- Work continues inside the stands to install all the drywall, electrical and plumbing. At the service level, office spaces have been built and some of the walls have been painted.

A worker is lifted to the top of the Veil behind the South stands to adjust the brackets connecting the wooden structure to the stands









From the west end of the south stands, the new stairs are in place and the shape of the Veil is now apparent









The tower crane at the west end of the field was taken down last week. A new crane for the building construction in this location will replace it









At the front of the south stands, work is underway to build the field level seating bowl


----------



## elly63




----------



## carnifex2005

Typical stellar crowd at the Bills game in Toronto...










Rogers obsession with this is hilarious.


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## Calvin W

20,000 in attendance?


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## carnifex2005

It was reported to be 38,969 but I'm guessing 25,000 k of that were paid. Rogers always has to heavily give freebies to this game.


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## will101

Good gravy! That's embarrassing. Any chance they sold more tickets to the other side of the field, to make it look better on TV?


----------



## George_D

Does anyone know if Argyll Velodrome in Edmonton is going to be covered?


----------



## Calvin W

George_D said:


> Does anyone know if Argyll Velodrome in Edmonton is going to be covered?


30 seconds of googling will give you the answer...


----------



## isaidso

carnifex2005 said:


> Rogers obsession with this is hilarious.


Agree. I wish they'd just give it a rest so Toronto can get on with the football team we already have instead of this continuously disruptive distraction. Perhaps they can do something constructive for a change and build a new stadium for the Argonauts.


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Hamilton December 3/2013


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## elly63

City of Ottawa
December 6, 2013

- At the south stands, work on the interior is advancing. In the service level, final paint and fixtures are being installed.
- At the suite level, stud walls and finishes are being put up.
- Work is proceeding to build the field-level seating bowl at the front of the stands.
- At the north stands, work is beginning to prepare the base for the new field-level seating.
- Work to form and reinforce the structure for the two new staircases into the Civic Centre continues.

Excavation for the base of the new field level seating at the north stands is underway









At the south stands, the seating bowl at the field level is being formed, and the media box has been enclosed









The vertical beams of the Veil are secured by metal posts to the back of the south stands









Inside the south stands at the suite level, drywall studs and interior finishes are being installed


----------



## elly63

Headline doesn't seem to match story - elly

Regina stadium plan weeks away, manager says
3 companies still fine-tuning bids for $278 million stadium at Evraz Place
John Weidlich, CBC News Dec 04, 2013









City Council has approved a design concept. The final look of the stadium will depend on what the builder can deliver for $278 million. (City of Regina)

Brent Sjoberg, the lead official for Regina's new $278-million stadium says the final selection of a design and builder for the project will not happen until some time in the first three months of 2014.

Sjoberg, the deputy city manager for Regina, said that should still allow enough time for construction to begin in the spring of 2014 with an opening date three years later, in early 2017.

"It's a fairly fluid process," Sjoberg told CBC News Tuesday. "Looking at our timeline, our goal was to have that final selection in place to allow for the 2014 construction season."

However, about a year ago — in the fall of 2012 — in a video posted to the city's website promoting the stadium as part of a revitalization initiative, Sjoberg predicted a final design and builder would be in place by now.

"The design might be very similar to what's been put forward in the concept," Sjoberg said in October of 2012. "That should be complete by November of 2013, with a final selection of a bidder and then, from there, we'll move into the construction project."

Sjoberg said the November 2013 date was never a firm objective. He added that the project remains on schedule.

"We'll take just slightly longer but [it] won't really impact the schedule at all," he said, about the additional time to select a winning bid. "Our focus is really to make sure that we go through a really solid process. Each of the teams has to submit a significant amount of information."

There are three finalists working with city officials on a final plan for the stadium. The process, as approved by Regina City Council, has city officials selecting the final design and builder.

"Council's not part of the actual review and final decision-making process," Sjoberg explained. "They basically set out all the criteria, ahead of time, that we need to evaluate."

Sjoberg said the most important deadline is the target for opening the stadium in time for the 2017 football season.

"The key issue for us is meeting the early 2017 time line," he said. "We're still on track to meet that [and] don't anticipate any issues at all. We're still working towards that."

While some site preparation is already underway, formal construction awaits a final decision on the builder, who must line-up sub-contractors and materials.

Sjoberg said the actual start of construction, in 2014, will be influenced by the weather. He noted work is underway at Evraz Place, the location of the new stadium, for the site to be ready for construction crews in the spring.

When pressed for when the announcement on the final design would take place, Sjoberg said that date is not set.

"We don't have a specific day that's set out," he said, but added officials were aiming for an announcement in the first three months of 2014. "We're right on track for that."


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Hamilton December 10/2013


----------



## IllumL8ker

Here is an update on the Markham Arena.

http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/4267305-markham-moves-on-from-nhl-arena-dreams/
http://gtacentre.ca/?p=11700










So, pretty much the Government is giving no money for this project. They have 6 months from the date of the resolution to get the rest of the funding it is just dormant right now. Last week calling for a privately funded arena passed 11-2. It's going to cost them $325 Million.

The NHL would be way stronger if it had another team in Toronto... I am all for it! 

And also... the NHL said it does not have plans to expand in the 2014-15 or the 2015-16 seasons. So they would have to wait.


----------



## IllumL8ker

Here is a pretty good article on NHL expansion talk... which mentions Hamilton as well.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/commish+Gary+Bettman+admits+league+listening+expansion/9278760/story.html


----------



## IllumL8ker

Here is another article this one on Edmonton's new arena... ROGERS Bought the naming rights to another Canadian stadium/arena... hno::nuts::bash:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/12/03/rogers-place-edmonton-arena_n_4379834.html










On construction updates.. well they say they will be done by 2016. Also total cost will be $480 million... Oilers owner Daryl Katz is investing about $240 million.


----------



## IllumL8ker

Here is the last one (cuz we barely talk about arenas on this thread:lol an update on quebec city's new arena that already broke ground in 2012 for the $400-million, 18,000-seat venue. Construction completion will be finished by September 2015.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2013/11/27/quebecs_nhl_dreams_boosted_by_rogers_deal.html


----------



## isaidso

IllumL8ker said:


> So, pretty much the Government is giving no money for this project. They have 6 months from the date of the resolution to get the rest of the funding it is just dormant right now. Last week calling for a privately funded arena passed 11-2. It's going to cost them $325 Million.
> 
> The NHL would be way stronger if it had another team in Toronto... I am all for it!
> 
> And also... the NHL said it does not have plans to expand in the 2014-15 or the 2015-16 seasons. So they would have to wait.


The NHL would be stronger with another team in the GTA, but Quebec City and Hamilton must come first. That said, the municipal government in York Region were correct not to fund the arena. This is quite different than investing for the continued success of a team already in existence or one that's been secured. Markham has no NHL team and none promised.


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Update Video - December 13
Site Supervisor Gareth Barkey provides an update on the construction of Tim Hortons Field, highlighting local structural steel contractor Walters Inc.


----------



## IllumL8ker

Kansas City aint that big too. Again focusing on the northern more passionate markets...


----------



## IllumL8ker

Also I totally forgot Jacksonville doesn't even have a suitable arena (had to check) they do not even to be on that list just like san diego...


----------



## BoulderGrad

IllumL8ker said:


> Also I totally forgot Jacksonville doesn't even have a suitable arena (had to check) they do not even to be on that list just like san diego...


Cities with NHL ready arenas with no team are as follows:

Portland
Houston
KC
Atlanta
Milwaukee
Orlando
Cleveland

Cities that are building NHL ready arenas:
Seattle
Quebec city

Hamilton's arena needs a lot of work to get up to snuff. The second Toronto arena has a snow balls chance in hell at this point, so the likelyhood of a 2nd Toronto franchise is about nil.

Edit:added a few I didn't think of at first

Edit edit: I should also add that there are plenty of other big arenas in big cities that are setup in the basketball first orientation (think Barclay's center with the islanders). I do not consider these NHL ready


----------



## GunnerJacket

IllumL8ker said:


> ... and so is Atlanta because they do not deserve another shot for a bit


I'm all for the NHL going for more true hockey markets and/or Canadian cities, but the league office abused Atlanta in their handling of the Thrashers. Period. Compared to Florida and PHX Atlanta got no help and no leeway toward keeping the team while the 8 owners sued each other and neglected both the Thrashers and the Hawks. No local buyers would touch them until the suit was resolved because the arena rent deal tendered by the owners was bull****. 

I don't expect ATL to get a team soon and am firmly in favor of giving Canadian cities first dibs on future expansion. I simply get rankled at any perception that the move of the Thrashers was due to fan apathy or disinterest.


----------



## IllumL8ker

Thanks BoulderGrad I forgot (Western Conference) Milwaukee - Central Standard Time - Pop.: 1,566,981 and (Eastern Conference) Cleveland - Eastern Time Zone - Pop.: 2,068,283... I just added them... they are both northern cities too


----------



## Bori427

How are other sports in Canada? Why no NFL team, only one MLB and one NBA team?


----------



## shhyvoodoo

The NHL should only be thinking about 2 cities to expand to right now: Quebec City and, if they want one, Seattle.. Everybody else dont matter..

Ben
Voodoo


----------



## isaidso

^^ Hamilton is bigger than Winnipeg and deserves a team, imo. They'd sell out their arena every single game without even trying.



Bori427 said:


> How are other sports in Canada? Why no NFL team, only one MLB and one NBA team?


Canada has a firmly entrenched football league that's over a century old. Toronto could barely muster 40,000 people to the Bills game in December and that was with thousands of Buffalo people traveling to Toronto for the game and thousands of freebies to try to make the stadium look full. Canada does't need an NFL team nor do we play 4 down football in this country. 99.9% of the football played in this country is Canadian football not American football.

I'm still sad that the Expos left Montreal for Washington, but hopeful that both Montreal and Vancouver will get MLB within the next 20 years. Calgary has an outside shot by 2035, but I think any Calgary team would need to enter with Edmonton at the same time. Both cities will likely have around 2 million people by then. Not large, but large enough to support MLB. These are also 2 of the wealthiest cities in the world so there's a ton of money floating around in Calgary and Edmonton.

NBA? Toronto and Halifax are the only markets in Canada where basketball is culturally important. Toronto has the Raptors while Halifax is far too small to support an NBA team. They have their own pro team in the NBL any way. I suppose one could add Vancouver to that list.


----------



## KingmanIII

Bori427 said:


> How are other sports in Canada? Why no NFL team, only one MLB and one NBA team?


----------



## GunnerJacket

shhyvoodoo said:


> The NHL should only be thinking about 2 cities to expand to right now: Quebec City and, if they want one, Seattle.. Everybody else dont matter..


I agree with isaidso in that Hamilton appears ready, willing and able to handle a team, and at this point I think they'd serve as fine new rivals for Toronto, Detroit and Buffalo. More importantly I think they'd draw more monied support vs some teams in smaller cities.



isaidso said:


> I'm still sad that the Expos left Montreal for Washington, but hopeful that both Montreal and Vancouver will get MLB within the next 20 years. Calgary has an outside shot by 2035, but I think any Calgary team would need to enter with Edmonton at the same time.


MLB is facing an interesting future. Unlike the single-division NBA and NFL, the MLB minor league system is an existing model for brooding potential expansion sites and/or satiating the interest in pro baseball. But, the model has its flaws and for many communities having a minor league team is almost more insulting than having no team at all.

Some pundits predict the existing collegiate system in the US will eventually collapse and we'll see other sports foster minor league teams for hoops and football, in which case the whole of pro sports might take on a different feel. Both in terms of the appeal for minor league teams and in how leagues contemplate top tiers with more than 32 teams. 



> NBA? Toronto and Halifax are the only markets in Canada where basketball is culturally important. Toronto has the Raptors while Halifax is far too small to support an NBA team. They have their own pro team in the NBL any way. I suppose one could add Vancouver to that list.


I'm no NBA fan, but part of me wishes the NBA and NHL would avoid more cross-over where possible. I can't explain why, really, just that I view each league through such different lenses and IMO NBA teams have become lifeless status symbols for cities. They're the easiest pro team to host and stage, obviously, but the league is so overly focused on their few celebrities it detracts from the ideal of supporting your team and community identity. 

But that's just me.


----------



## carnifex2005

*Does MLSE want to buy, bring Argos to BMO Field?*

The future home of the Toronto Argonauts may very well be BMO Field after all.

Amidst Tim Leiweke’s revelation to Sportsnet colleague Chris Johnston of a future outdoor hockey game being staged at the stadium, the head of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment (MLSE) also suggested a renovation of the grounds would make a renovated BMO capable of hosting a future CFL championship game.

"The Grey Cup, I think, would be phenomenal in an outdoor setting in Toronto, on the lake," Leiweke told Johnston Tuesday.

David Braley has publicly stated he is looking to sell his full ownership into both the Argonauts and B.C. Lions by 2016.

MLSE has been linked, in recent months, to having interest in buying the Argonauts, but each time the suggestion was brushed aside as being too premature. CFL sources told Sportsnet that privately, Argos executives were hoping a scenario would unfold where MLSE would purchase the franchise.

The Canadian Football League would not address the matter Tuesday evening, other than to say there is no deal done to sell the Argos and that the CFL "will not comment on speculation around ownership."

The league declined to make commissioner Mark Cohon available for an interview.

More info in link.


----------



## isaidso

^^ The Argonauts at BMO Field looks more likely all the time. I just can't see a Grey Cup ever being played there unless it's capacity made it more compelling than Skydome. Skydome may be getting grass and turning into a baseball specific venue, but I bet it will still hold Grey Cups when Toronto hosts. 

If the Double Blue do move to BMO what capacity would it have to be? I bet the MLS team would like to see 28,000 seats or more. That would dove tail well with what the Argos are likely seeking. I'm convinced that the Skydome is killing the Argos and a move to a proper facility will see them get a significant and permanent jump in attendance. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd need 34,000+ at BMO in 2-3 years after a move there.



GunnerJacket said:


> I agree with isaidso in that Hamilton appears ready, willing and able to handle a team, and at this point I think they'd serve as fine new rivals for Toronto, Detroit and Buffalo. More importantly I think they'd draw more monied support vs some teams in smaller cities.


Hamilton draws a blank for most Americans and is looked down upon/unappreciated by Canadians due to its status as our rust belt city. It hasn't recovered from the collapse of steel, but it still has higher median family income than neighbouring Toronto. Most people just don't believe it when you tell them. 

Regardless, Hamilton sits in the most densely populated region in Canada with tons of monied people who'd jump at a chance to attend NHL in Hamilton. The Leafs are largely out of reach for the average NHL fan in southern Ontario. Many go to Buffalo because it's affordable and all that's available to purchase. Nose bleed seats at Leafs games start at $100.



GunnerJacket said:


> ... for many communities having a minor league team is almost more insulting than having no team at all.


That about sums up Montreal and Vancouver in a nut shell. For them it's MLB or nothing. It's doubly hard to swallow for Montreal because they had MLB before Toronto did.



GunnerJacket said:


> I'm no NBA fan, but part of me wishes the NBA and NHL would avoid more cross-over where possible. I can't explain why, really, just that I view each league through such different lenses and IMO NBA teams have become lifeless status symbols for cities. They're the easiest pro team to host and stage, obviously, but the league is so overly focused on their few celebrities it detracts from the ideal of supporting your team and community identity.
> 
> But that's just me.


I'm a huge basketball fan, but can't relate to the NBA either. I've never figured out why it grates on me the way it does, but perhaps it's the celebrity as you say, the hip hop culture attached to it, the plastic atmosphere at games? 

If the NBA and NHL help make each other viable concerns for cities I can't complain, but I'm strictly a college or high school hoops fan. OK, I follow the national team as well.


----------



## GunnerJacket

carnifex2005 said:


> *Does MLSE want to buy, bring Argos to BMO Field?*


Interesting. Thanks for the link.



isaidso said:


> ^^ The Argonauts at BMO Field looks more likely all the time. I just can't see a Grey Cup ever being played there unless it's capacity made it more compelling than Skydome....
> 
> If the Double Blue do move to BMO what capacity would it have to be? I bet the MLS team would like to see 28,000 seats or more. That would dove tail well with what the Argos are likely seeking. I'm convinced that the Skydome is killing the Argos and a move to a proper facility will see them get a significant and permanent jump in attendance. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd need 34,000+ at BMO in 2-3 years after a move there.


I realize this may skirt the boundries of sound fiscal policy, but if this came to fruition I can't help but think how great it would be to have this facility given a truly Class A facelift with a very calssic masonry facade and some iconic ornamentation. They could leave one end relatively shallow but poised for easy temporary expansion for events like you're mentioning, having a base capacity somewhere around 32k but a potential for, say, 40-44k. Do that, then drop the MLS ticket price to ensure more fannies in the seats and you could possibly get those Sounder-like crowds you're mentioning. 

But, yeah, now that we've seen some very nice soccer-specific stadiums in MLS I'd love to see one done to the Nth degree at about 30k capacity. (Red Bull arena is nice but isn't original)



> Hamilton draws a blank for most Americans


Possibly because no one I know can picture a "there" to represent Hamilton! It's a dot on the map and I know all about the lingering search for an identity apart from metro Toronto, but for the life of me I can't picture what the community looks like. Even after reading the stories of that last investor in his quest to bring the Coyotes to the area. 



> I'm a huge basketball fan, but can't relate to the NBA either. I've never figured out why it grates on me the way it does, but perhaps it's the celebrity as you say, the hip hop culture attached to it, the plastic atmosphere at games?


The sad thing is the NBA players themselves are generally much more above board and trouble free compared to their NFL brethren. Stern and company have worked really hard to maintain the broad appeal of their product and I appreciate that. I simply dislike the individualism touted ever since Jordan left and know too many fans who go to watch select players rather than living and dying with one team. I think it's the side effect of the game's nature and exposure - We literally see hoops stars faces more often and easily compared to NFL and NHL players because of their headgear. So while the NBA can readily build on that name recognition the NFL is constantly bombarding us with idealogues about team brands and their majectic histories. The fabled Green Bay Packers! America's Team! Da Bears!

I like the NBA a bit more now that you can do zone defense. The constant barrage of teams running 2-man plays just killed me. I'm also not a fan of high scoring games in the sense that it means each bucket is worth that much less, per se. Give me a gritty 67-65 game in college any day.


----------



## isaidso

GunnerJacket said:


> I realize this may skirt the boundries of sound fiscal policy, but if this came to fruition I can't help but think how great it would be to have this facility given a truly Class A facelift with a very calssic masonry facade and some iconic ornamentation. They could leave one end relatively shallow but poised for easy temporary expansion for events like you're mentioning, having a base capacity somewhere around 32k but a potential for, say, 40-44k. Do that, then drop the MLS ticket price to ensure more fannies in the seats and you could possibly get those Sounder-like crowds you're mentioning.
> 
> But, yeah, now that we've seen some very nice soccer-specific stadiums in MLS I'd love to see one done to the Nth degree at about 30k capacity. (Red Bull arena is nice but isn't original)


Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment are deep pocketed and supremely well connected, but known for being frugal/starving their sports properties. Lately they seem interested in making meaningful investments, but any stadium in Toronto is going to be bare bones functional. Toronto is an excruciatingly pragmatic place that views anything outside of modernism as vulgar or tacky. We'll never get ornamentation, masonry, or anything that hints of heritage/tradition.

At this point I'm just hoping that we can get the MLS and CFL team at BMO and 8000 extra seats. The Argonauts haven't had a proper stadium since 1958 if you can believe it. They've been in awkward baseball stadia from 1959 till present. First Exhibition Stadium, than Skydome (Rogers Centre).



GunnerJacket said:


> Possibly because no one I know can picture a "there" to represent Hamilton! It's a dot on the map and I know all about the lingering search for an identity apart from metro Toronto, but for the life of me I can't picture what the community looks like. Even after reading the stories of that last investor in his quest to bring the Coyotes to the area.


Quite understandable. Hamilton actually has a very strong identity in this country and very few places in Canada immediately evoke such well defined imagery. It's our Pittsburgh. Steel, industry, blue collar, donuts, football. That said, Hamilton is almost completely unknown beyond our borders. Maybe this will help:

*Steel*









*Tim Hortons*









*Hamilton Tiger-Cats: since 1869 (oldest pro football team in north America)*









*Eugene Levy*









*Martin Short*












GunnerJacket said:


> The sad thing is the NBA players themselves are generally much more above board and trouble free compared to their NFL brethren. Stern and company have worked really hard to maintain the broad appeal of their product and I appreciate that. I simply dislike the individualism touted ever since Jordan left and know too many fans who go to watch select players rather than living and dying with one team. I think it's the side effect of the game's nature and exposure - We literally see hoops stars faces more often and easily compared to NFL and NHL players because of their headgear. So while the NBA can readily build on that name recognition the NFL is constantly bombarding us with idealogues about team brands and their majectic histories. The fabled Green Bay Packers! America's Team! Da Bears!
> 
> I like the NBA a bit more now that you can do zone defense. The constant barrage of teams running 2-man plays just killed me. I'm also not a fan of high scoring games in the sense that it means each bucket is worth that much less, per se. Give me a gritty 67-65 game in college any day.


Perhaps I need to give the NBA another shot, but I just found my first NBA experience a big let down. It felt so plastic, boring, and forced. College hoops comes off as so much more genuine, real, and fun. I'm a college hoops fan almost exclusively. You a Georgia Bulldogs fan then?


----------



## GunnerJacket

carnifex2005 said:


> *Does MLSE want to buy, bring Argos to BMO Field?*


So I've done a little more investigation into this. Quite surprised to see so many soccer folks adamantly opposed. Granted, I agree that any ground sharing must be done at top-notch levels which do not sacrifice the integrity of the field, and by all accounts FC gets first pick for scheduling. But that being said I'm confident that if done right both can get their way. So long as they don't play soccer the day after football that's ample time to treat and re-stripe the field to avoid any ugly interactions, so it's all about whether or not MLSE has the cajones to do it right.

As to the supposed expansion, here's a seating chart pulled off nukesoccer.com:










It's a tight fit all around so barring any major land purchases the immediate expansion would be minimal, it appears. The larger single stand to the right, the east stand, appears built to the property line. The second tier was placed on the west to take advantage of the views of downtown, it would seem. Based on pictures from the web I can't blame them and suggest building off this theme.

My first off-the-cuff idea would be to extend this tier at least one more section toward each end, with the design accommodating a future extension completely around the south end. (Probably attached to a parking deck immediately behind.) I'd also seek to improve the suites above this tier, extending those the full length of the stand and possibly sneaking in an additional level.

I'd also seek to complete the lower bowl with a north end matching the south. if the site conditions allow it I'd also add suites above each end. That plus the second tier expansion would probably add about 5-7k seats, bringin capacity to 28-30k but would add the most important feature in premium seating. Done right this could be mighty attractive yet still very intimate. And by all accounts both teams would be thrilled to have regular sell-outs of 28k.

If they're serious about a 40k+ capacity then they'll have to buy land to add a second tier on the eastern side.


----------



## Calvin W

A CFL field is significantly longer than a soccer pitch. You would need to remove one endzone seating completely to fit in a football field.


----------



## carnifex2005

isaidso said:


> ^^ The Argonauts at BMO Field looks more likely all the time. I just can't see a Grey Cup ever being played there unless it's capacity made it more compelling than Skydome. Skydome may be getting grass and turning into a baseball specific venue, but I bet it will still hold Grey Cups when Toronto hosts.
> 
> If the Double Blue do move to BMO what capacity would it have to be? I bet the MLS team would like to see 28,000 seats or more. That would dove tail well with what the Argos are likely seeking. I'm convinced that the Skydome is killing the Argos and a move to a proper facility will see them get a significant and permanent jump in attendance. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd need 34,000+ at BMO in 2-3 years after a move there.


If MLSE buys the Argos and move them to BMO, the CFL would have no choice but to give the Grey Cup to that venue. That being said, MLSE has said several times that TFC is the priority of the stadium. It will be interesting to see what could be done to make that stadium hold 40k (with temp seating) and make it suitable for soccer and football without using field turf. If there is any government money going towards this expansion I'd expect that having a home for the Argos is a condition.


----------



## isaidso

carnifex2005 said:


> If MLSE buys the Argos and move them to BMO, the CFL would have no choice but to give the Grey Cup to that venue.


Why? When Montreal hosts the Grey Cup they don't use Molson Stadium. They use the stadium that best suits their needs: Olympic Stadium. BMO would need a massive expansion and investment to make it a better option than Skydome. I just don't see that happening; not within the next 15 years any way. 40,000 is likely the upper most limit for BMO short term and that's just not going to bring it a Grey Cup when 54,000 seats at Skydome exists.


----------



## Innsertnamehere

all of the land around BMO field is owned by the city, who also owns BMO field. There are no real space limitations for the stadium other than buildings, which are on 2 sides of the field. (one of those sides is the west side and that is the most built up portion of the stadium currently regardless)


If Toronto gets a second NHL Team it will probably be Markham, Its far enough away from Buffalo it doesn't have to pay the market infringement fees for Buffalo (unlike Hamilton) but can still access the same market. It also gets a much newer Arena.


----------



## isaidso

^^ They made some really poor choices when they built BMO Field right up to the lot line on the west side. They had a lot that could one day be expanded to hold a big stadium, but now only stands on the east side are an expansion option unless they demolish BMO and start over. 

I couldn't believe it when I first saw the positioning of BMO in the plans. I was even more flabbergasted when it got approved with no one suggesting that it be centred over the lot. You'd think they'd have at least 2-3 smart people at that organization who would have flagged that glaring mistake immediately. To put it kindly, it was asinine.


----------



## shhyvoodoo

flashman said:


> Considering how well the two-stadium situation works in Montreal, Toronto needs to adopt the same model. And just because the Whitecaps and Lions are sharing the same stadium in Vancouver doesn't mean it's acceptable to both parties. The Whitecaps had plans to build a new ground near Gastown but the city indicated it would make it difficult to obtain necessary approvals unless the Whitecaps played ball over the BC Place reno. So, in the short term, the Whitecaps are in BC Place just to help generate bill-paying revenue and political goodwill. But their ambitions to build their own stadium have not diminished and it will happen. The city of Toronto would do well to invest in Lamport Stadium as a home for the Argos. The CFL has limited, and fading, appeal in a city yearning for a NFL franchise. The best thing they can do to preserve hope for the Argos is to put them in a cozy, noisy bandbox that makes the hip flask fashionable again. MLSE is acutely aware of the backlash they'll suffer by trying to shoehorn the Argos into BMO Field and disrupting a thriving and highly profitable soccer environment. One that has legs for growth, unlike the CFL. They're also aware that soccer participation in Canada is about to top the 1 million mark, double what is was in 1997, the year it matched hockey for participation. Hockey is struggling to top the 600,000 mark and when it does, it will only be by the substantial growth of women's hockey, offsetting serious declines in male participation. MLSE will go with the flow.


Toronto and the NFL knows they will NEVER get a NFL franchise. Bury that horse already. 

Ben
Voodoo


----------



## elly63

Ottawa landmark Lansdowne Park to be renamed
TD Bank set to take over naming rights at facility
Don Campbell, Ottawa Citizen January 6, 2014

Ottawa’s new sports and entertainment complex is about to take on a new name.

Lansdowne Park is expected to be renamed TD Place when it reopens in 2014, the Citizen has learned, after the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group reached an agreement on naming rights for the entire facility with the TD Bank Group.

The agreement will pay OSEG an annual fee — said to be in seven figures — which will also allow for a full service TD banking centre at Lansdowne.

The refurbished stadium/arena combination on the grounds will be home to the Canadian Football League’s Ottawa Redblacks, the Ontario Hockey League’s Ottawa 67’s and the North American Soccer League franchise Ottawa Fury FC.

The Redblacks are set to return Ottawa to the CFL for the 2014 season, with their first home game coming in late July or early August. The Fury will open its 2014 spring schedule at Carleton University while the construction project is completed, then switch over in the summer.

The 67’s, meanwhile, will return to a renovated Civic Centre for the 2014-15 season after two years at the Canadian Tire Centre in Kanata.

The deal re-establishes a major Canadian bank as the marquee sponsor of a sports complex in the capital after a one-year hiatus. Last summer the Ottawa Senators opted out of their contract with Scotiabank, which held the naming rights at CTC prior to this season.

The new Lansdowne agreement also allows the Bank of Montreal to establish a smaller banking centre on the grounds.

The rebuilding of the complex has been in the works since 2008, when former 67’s owner and now president of sports for OSEG Jeff Hunt made public his wish to return pro football to the city. Obtaining a CFL franchise was contingent on the stadium undergoing massive upgrades.

That fall, the OSEG consortium met with the city to hash out a plan to redevelop Lansdowne Park, rebuild the stadium and add commercial, retail and residential space.

City council approved a plan in 2010 and, after a lengthy legal battle with opponents of the redevelopment, the project finally went ahead in 2012.

A formal announcement of the naming rights deal could come as early as this week.

OSEG officials declined to comment.


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## will101

flashman said:


> The CFL has limited, and fading, appeal in a city yearning for a NFL franchise.


Are you kidding? Do you realize that the last Bills game only drew about 30,000? That's not much of a yearning.


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## IllumL8ker

will101 said:


> Are you kidding? Do you realize that the last Bills game only drew about 30,000? That's not much of a yearning.


I have said it before... it's different if your city has a team... And I know it will just have a greasy name... Well there is a very strong rivalry with buffalo in hockey with Toronto as well... So I think the start of if it had a (dare I say) NFL (I know some of you guys just go bonkers when I say this :lol franchise it may need some early success on the field and it might turn into long lasting success...

Why can't the Argo's and Toro's (HA) thrive in a big football specific stadium in Toronto. :cheers:

The money is there... and it might startle another skyscraper boom in Toronto with all this new money.


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## isaidso

will101 said:


> Are you kidding? Do you realize that the last Bills game only drew about 30,000? That's not much of a yearning.


Not to mention that the CFL in Toronto is currently at a historic low. It really has nowhere to go but back up. Lots of Toronto NFL fans like to think that this city is a big football mecca, but the numbers don't back that up. 

What's more accurate is that Torontonians have a severe case of 'the grass is greener on the other side of the fence' when it comes to football. Actually going to football games hasn't been part of the cultural DNA of Torontonians since the 1970s.

There are about 20,000-30,000 who loyally show up to football in Toronto through thick or thin. If they haven't abandoned the Argonauts through all this, they never will. The Argonauts will only gain support and traction with a move to a proper stadium. One thing that struck me was how shocked Torontonians were when they watched that pre-season game at Varsity or went up to Guelph to watch the Ti-Cats. It really put into focus how terrible the football experience at Skydome is. People here have forgotten what it's supposed to be like.

Montrealers went through the same revelation when the Alouettes moved out of Olympic Stadium and into Molson Stadium. Wow, is this what we've been missing all these years? People realized that there was nothing wrong with the CFL, it was the stadium. If that can happen in Montreal, it can happen in Toronto too. If it does, the Argonauts will have no problem selling out a 30,000 seater. They'd likely need something bigger actually.

MLSE has seen the writing on the wall. The NFL isn't coming here, there's little benefit to the NFL financially or strategically in doing so, and the market for it is smaller than people seem to think. They also see the diamond in the rough that the Argonauts represent.


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## GunnerJacket

isaidso said:


> What's more accurate is that Torontonians...


Having never heard either I would've bet money they'd go by Torontoans. Learn something new every day, I guess.

Bottom line for the Argos - As both a business venture and for the fan experience the venue matters, and clearly the Rodgers Skydome isn't working out.


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## Cjones2451

IllumL8ker said:


> I have said it before... it's different if your city has a team... And I know it will just have a greasy name... Well there is a very strong rivalry with buffalo in hockey with Toronto as well... So I think the start of if it had a (dare I say) NFL (I know some of you guys just go bonkers when I say this :lol franchise it may need some early success on the field and it might turn into long lasting success...
> 
> Why can't the Argo's and Toro's (HA) thrive in a big football specific stadium in Toronto. :cheers:
> 
> The money is there... and it might startle another skyscraper boom in Toronto with all this new money.


If you want to "prove to the NFL" that you want a franchise, the NFL fans should be sold out and fans, hanging from the rafters at the Rogers Centre when there is a live NFL game in their back yard, not well.....if you build us a nice $1B stadium, make the team competitve, have a name and jersey I like, and protect me from the cold and rain, I will be there to support the Toronto Whatevers in the NFL.......give me a break, Toronto is a fairweather sports town.


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## flashman

Let's try to remember how well basketball was drawing before the NBA came to Toronto. Well, the numbers were pretty thin for the odd game Buffalo played at Maple Leaf Gardens. 

Let's try to remember how well soccer was drawing before MLS came to Toronto. There were pathetic crowds of 1-2,000 out at west-end Centennial Stadium to watch the Lynx play.

Shock of shocks, both sports have put pro franchises in that have thrived - well, financially. Can't say they play well, but they are well supported.

Same applies to the NFL. The fact they're drawing over 40,000 to watch the unsuccessful and largely un-loved Buffalo Bills in a so-so stadium speaks volumes. Let's be clear here - there are hordes of NFL fans in Toronto but very few that staunchly support the Bills. 

They may well draw over 10,000 fans per game from Canada to games in Buffalo, but in Toronto proper, the Bills are small beer. Most football fans here would prefer to see the Bills stay in Buffalo and fuel a rivalry. It's doubtful whether the Bills will remain in Buffalo and they'll be vulnerable to relocation - LA? London? - when the club is auctioned off after Ralph Wilson dies.

I have high-school age kids here at home and when their buddies come over during football season, it's nothing but NFL. Last night, they were debating whether their favorite teams should tank next year in order to draft FSU's Jameis Winston. They couldn't name five CFL clubs, let alone five players, but they can reel of names of depth players on NFL teams, they can passionately banter about who's in the pipeline in the NCAA. 

It's not like they're unique. This is representative of a big segment of that age group, a highly desirable demographic. Kids in Toronto are not remotely interested in the CFL. And if they're not watching NFL, it's soccer and hockey, with basketball becoming a bit more relevant as the Raptors re-discover respectability.

I spent a weekend last fall socializing with some high-level advertising and PR associates. The consensus was that there would be an insane amount of corporate support for the NFL in Toronto. It would be like a bidding war amongst sponsors to get involved. The city is crammed with investment money these days, more than enough to pay for a franchise and build a new stadium.

The CFL hasn't got a hope of competing anymore. What they need to do to stay viable is be different from the NFL. Rather than try to go big, get the Argos into a re-vamped Lamport Stadium and make it as tight and atmospheric as Ivor Wynne Stadium was in Hamilton. Lamport's in the heart of a trendy district in the west downtown. It would be worth the city's money to give it an upgrade. I can't see the Pan-Am games track and field stadium at York University being a viable home unless it's strictly short term.


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## GunnerJacket

The NFL coming to Toronto is wholly dependent on someone willing to pony up the cash and concoct a new stadium or severely renovated Rodgers Centre, so it's rather moot to offer that as a near-term option. 



flashman said:


> Let's try to remember how well basketball was drawing before the NBA came to Toronto. Well, the numbers were pretty thin for the odd game Buffalo played at Maple Leaf Gardens.
> 
> Let's try to remember how well soccer was drawing before MLS came to Toronto. There were pathetic crowds of 1-2,000 out at west-end Centennial Stadium to watch the Lynx play.


Neither sport had a domestic league comparable to what the CFL offers for football so this isn't a truly similar indicator. There's something also to be said about this being the final straw, as it were, regarding Toronto's ability to be unique among Canadian cities; If Toronto were to punt CFL for NFL (and let's face it, managing both would be very difficult) you're beginning a sporting-cultural division in terms of relations to youth leagues and the overall national sports scene. (Not unlike the oft debated scheme of moving Celtic and Rangers into the English Premiership.) 




> Most football fans here would prefer to see the Bills stay in Buffalo and fuel a rivalry.
> 
> ...
> 
> I spent a weekend last fall socializing with some high-level advertising and PR associates. The consensus was that there would be an insane amount of corporate support for the NFL in Toronto. It would be like a bidding war amongst sponsors to get involved. The city is crammed with investment money these days, more than enough to pay for a franchise and build a new stadium.


I don't doubt something like this scenario could succeed. It could also struggle and prove much more costly than imagined. But if there's already such support for the NFL in Toronto wouldn't that indicate marginal return for the league in entering this territory? Look at how cautious the NFL has become regarding entry back into LA. The league also knows they need to be careful not to water-down the product, as any expansion right now represents some, shall we say, intriguing challenges regarding divisional alignment and scheduling. 




> It's doubtful whether the Bills will remain in Buffalo and they'll be vulnerable to relocation - LA? London? - when the club is auctioned off after Ralph Wilson dies.


The league will be incredibly hard pressed to allow more relocations without heavy consideration, especially one with such deep roots and viable business plans. Count me among those thinking the league won't move the Bills unless absolutely necessary.



> The CFL hasn't got a hope of competing anymore. What they need to do to stay viable is be different from the NFL.


I agree. The NFL has become more and more favorable toward the CFL in (casually) promoting that as a great summer fix for NFL fans rather than as any competition. The different rules add variety and help maintain national identities, so I hope the leagues remain forever apart and that the CFL finds its proper niche.


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## flashman

I won't re-quote you, GJ, but will say that the willingness to spend on a NFL franchise exists with many of Toronto's wealthy people and within many major corporate entities connected to those people.

MLSE minority owner Larry Tanenbaum would be delighted to be involved in the project, especially if his company gets to pour contract for a new stadium. Recent reports had Jon Bon Jovi (2013's top concert revenue earner in N. America) looking to partner up with members of the Rogers family(communications empire, MLB's Blue Jays) to buy a franchise and MLSE eager to join in on the stadium side.

You say neither soccer or basketball had a domestic league like the CFL to compare to. The healthy crowds that turn out for the lackluster NFL games in Toronto are a far better barometer of likely success than the thin support soccer and basketball was getting just prior to the arrival of MLS and NBA. The Bills series is actually losing some gravity as the novelty of the whole scheme has long worn off and now they're just asking people to splash out and support a pretty lousy football team from a city often perceived to be an ardent sporting rival(Sabres-Leafs hockey, Bandits-Rock lacrosse, good-evil), something that might intensify in a good way if Toronto landed it's own NFL franchise.

You suggest Toronto might be an awkward fit for the NFL, yet the city has four other pro sport franchises that all fit quite comfortably into the NBA, MLB, NHL and MLS. The NFL would be a roaring success from Minute 1 of its existence in Toronto.

As for Buffalo's potential relocation, including to Toronto, the league has been consistent in recent years in expressing willingness to grow itself internationally. London, England, will have a franchise within a few years. Toronto would be an easy way to add to it's international initiative. Neither city presents language or cultural difficulties that would dissuade top players from playing there. Both are more viable locations than the once-mooted Mexico City franchise.

The Bills will be sold to whomever bids highest and the league does not have a great track record in stopping re-locations - e.g. St. Louis Cardinals to Phoenix, LA Rams to St. Louis, Oakland to LA and back, Baltimore to Indianapolis, Cleveland to Baltimore. 

And relocation is something the CFL will have to contemplate with the propped-up Argonauts franchise. The club is alive only by the grace of the benevolent David Braley, who is eager to divest himself of them. Despite the near-frantic efforts of TSN to hype the league, interest and attendances continue to dwindle. 

The CFL needs to adopt the same philosophy as the Canadian Hockey League regarding it's appeal in major markets. Both Toronto and Montreal have displayed long-standing indifference toward junior hockey. These cities have pro sports to drain media attention and corporate and fan money away from the lesser league. Outside of these cities, junior hockey thrives and offers great entertainment value in full, atmospheric arenas.

There's a perception that Montreal Alouettes are doing well playing out of the re-furbished Percival Molson Stadium. Not that well. They live on the benevolence and deep pockets of owner Robert Wetenhall. They consistently lose money. 

And so do the Argos. I don't take any joy in that. I once sold hot dogs and drinks in the stands of CNE Stadium at Argos games. I was a huge fan and still enjoy the game at times. True, the NFL doesn't want to be seen as the cause of the Argos demise, because the loss of Toronto to the CFL is perceived as a marketing blow and the NFL is wary of a PR backlash. They needn't be.

The game has struggled for years in Ontario, not just in Toronto. Hamilton has long had trouble drawing adequate crowds and Ottawa has had two franchises close doors. New stadiums in both cities and a committed group of local owners in Ottawa for a third try may well turn it around. A boutique stadium might save the Argos. But no one of the Bon Jovi or Rogers family stature is stepping up enthusiastically and saying 'I'll take on that team'. There's just no prospect of making any kind of decent money long term with the CFL in Toronto.

So the league needs to look beyond Toronto and plan how to succeed in smaller, more-welcoming centres. It looks like the game could work in Quebec City or in a Maritime city like Halifax or Moncton. Possibly London, Ont., too. It would be interesting to see if adding a team in Saskatoon would work, but that might have to wait a decade or so.

It can still have a national footprint and a viable base for success, especially if strong support in smaller cities translates into an entertaining TV product. The NFL would likely find a way to contribute to the CFL if it came into Canada. (Did the CFL give the NFL a handout when it opened franchises in Las Vegas, Baltimore, Shreveport, etc.?)

Finally, if you want to create CFL awareness in Toronto, move the team and sell the name Argonauts to the incoming NFL club. It's a great name that would be immortalized. For a generation, at least, Toronto football fans would see the identity and recall where it came from. The NFL would be smart to insist on it as part of their support for the CFL.


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## Bori427

Why would the Bills franchise relocate to Toronto?


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## elly63

flashman said:


> The club is alive only by the grace of the benevolent David Braley, who is eager to divest himself of them. Despite the near-frantic efforts of TSN to hype the league, *interest and attendances continue to dwindle*.
> 
> There's a perception that Montreal Alouettes are doing well playing out of the re-furbished Percival Molson Stadium. Not that well. They live on the benevolence and deep pockets of owner Robert Wetenhall. They consistently lose money.


Don't know where you're coming up with those opinions. 

Every CFL team (save Toronto and Hamilton) was profitable. The new stadium revenues should put Hamilton over the top.

And also don't know where you're getting your opinion about Montreal consistently losing money. Montreal does very well in corporate sponsorships. There was a rumoured decline when they had a corporate executive who reputedly alienated some of the business community but that person has been let go.

Also before pimping Bon Jovi you might want to do some research on our crew-cutted hick Braley. His net worth makes Bon Jovi look like Skid Row (pardon the expression)


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## will101

flashman said:


> The healthy crowds that turn out for the lackluster NFL games in Toronto ...


No. Wrong. I admit that you are quite the wordsmith, but everything here is based on an almost-fraudulent assumption. The 30,000 that turned out in November was the least-healthy crowd the NFL has had in decades. I guarantee the gnomes at 345 Park Avenue buried the idea of a Toronto franchise that day.


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## Cjones2451

flashman said:


> Despite the near-frantic efforts of TSN to hype the league, interest and attendances continue to dwindle.
> 
> I get your arguement and 100's maybe 1000's share the same opinion, but why does every NFL supporter say this? Attendances do not continue to dwindle (some markets were up and some were down) but it has been very strong in recent years and avg attendances are bigger than alot of the big European Soccer leagues (Serie A, Ligue 1, La Liga) for example and this will only fget stronger with new stadiums in Hamilton, Ottawa, Regina and eventually Toronto. As well TV ratings are HUGE, bigger than the NFL in Canada and 2nd only to the NHL. Why would TSN (and this was done before the Rogers deal with the NHL) pay over 2x what they were paying before this new contract. Sorry, the CFL struggles in Toronto, but so does their AHL team, which to me speaks to Torontonians as sports fans. I think a true sports town supports all levels of sport. Elly,anything to add?


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## elly63

Leiweke soothes TFC fan worries over BMO expansion
John Molinaro January 9, 2014

Like a lot of Toronto FC fans, Phil Tobin feels somewhat out of the loop.

Tobin is president of the Red Patch Boys, one of TFC’s biggest and best-known supporters groups. He’s concerned about the possibility of the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts moving into Toronto FC’s home at BMO Field.

Tobin and other TFC season-ticket holders have been repeatedly and publically assured by Tim Leiweke, president of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, that any potential modifications to BMO Field to accommodate the Argonauts or turn the soccer specific stadium into a multi-purpose facility won’t take place without MLSE first consulting them.

So imagine Tobin’s surprise last week when a Sportsnet report included confirmation from Leiweke that BMO Field, which has been TFC’s home since 2007, might undergo a major renovation and expansion in order to host a future edition of the NHL’s Winter Classic and CFL’s Grey Cup.

Another Sportsnet report cited CFL sources who said Argos executives hoped a scenario would unfold where MLSE would purchase the franchise, a move that could very well lead to the gridiron team moving into BMO Field on a full-time basis.

*SUPPORTERS’ FEARS*

Tobin, a 39-year-old telecom technician who calls Toronto home, has served as Red Patch Boys president since 2010. He’s feels very confident in speaking for the majority of his membership when he says Leiweke and MLSE are sending mixed messages.

“We talk to Tim and MLSE people at town hall meetings and we engage them about these issues, and they’re promising before they do anything that they’re going to talk to us,” Tobin told Sportsnet.

“But it’s frustrating because then you open up the newspaper or see website articles talking about Winter Classics, the Argos moving in, stadium expansion…. It’s every single point contradicting another one they’ve made and it’s frustrating.”

Maintaining the soccer aesthetics of BMO Field, a soccer-specific stadium built for the Reds prior to their first Major League Soccer season in 2007, is a key issue for Tobin and thousands of other loyal TFC supporters.

BMO Field’s present configurations don’t allow for Canadian football because of the dimensions of the field and stadium. If the Argos were to move in, the stands would have to be moved back—unless retractable stands were used—putting TFC fans further away from the action, and resulting in BMO Field losing its sense of being what fans consider a proper soccer stadium.

Then there’s the issue of the football lines on the field, which would visibly detract from the stadium’s “soccer vibe.” Also, BMO Field features natural grass, but supporters fear an artificial surface would likely have to be installed to accommodate the Argos. Again, that’s not ideal for soccer.

Tobin argues that putting in an artificial surface at BMO Field, which featured FieldTurf up until 2010, would make it increasingly more difficult for TFC to sign top players, especially those from overseas who are used to playing on grass.

“You’re not going to get a Jermain Defoe without grass,” Tobin said, referring to the Tottenham and England star that TFC will officially unveil on Monday.

The Argonauts’ present lease with Rogers Centre expires in 2017, although it has an opt-out clause that could theoretically allow them to move into BMO Field. But as far as the Red Patch Boys are concerned, the bottom line is this: BMO Field should not roll out the welcome mat to the Argos.

“The position for most of our group, and personally, is that the Argos should find their own home venue. BMO isn’t a real solution,” Tobin stated. “It’s not spite for the CFL. We’re really happy the CFL exists. … It’s a great tradition and it’s Canadian, and we’re very proud of it. But the Argos should sort out their stadium issues on their own.”

*LEIWEKE RESPONDS*

Leiweke states that if BMO Field is renovated to become a multipurpose facility that can accommodate other events such as the CFL that the soccer experience won’t be affected in any way.

“When we talk about Winter Classics or Grey Cups and a 40,000-capacity BMO, that is with a base of 30,000 seats. *Our expansion plans for BMO are to go from our current capacity of just under 22,000 to 30,000*,” Leiweke told Sportsnet. “We do not think that will ultimately out-paces demand, especially with where we’re trying to go with this team.

“*We want to design it in a way so that we can get 40,000 on a temporary basis for big events. Our goal is still to have a 30,000-seat stadium* that would protect the intimacy and the environment of the game and the experience, while still projecting some growth for the sport going forward.”

The additional seats will come by adding another level to current structure of the stadium, Leiweke explained.

As far as installing artificial turf, Leiweke maintains that is not going to happen.

“I want to be as clear as I can: We are committed to grass. There is no miscommunication on the grass issue,” Leiweke stated.

Leiweke also went to great lengths to explain that any system or technology implemented to physically slide back the end-zone stands in order to accommodate a CFL-size field would have no effect on soccer.

“One of the reasons why the renovation costs are so high—and I’m talking about *a renovation cost that is twice what it cost the build the stadium* in the first place—is to create an engineering system within the building to make sure for soccer the configuration remains as it is today,” Leiweke said.

Leiweke later added: “There will be no obstruction of the sidelines, no distances created between the first row and the pitch that are any different than what you see today.… We will have the same ambience and same experience and same atmosphere that they have today but with additional seats.”

What about Tobin’s fears that CFL football would tear up the pitch? Or the gridiron line marks on the soccer pitch?

“*There is a way to schedule events so that you never have the two teams playing on the same weekend and you always give the pitch a week to recover. [As for the lines], there are now ways to do lines that are a paint-based concept where the paint literally can be taken right off and you’d never know it was there*,” Leiweke assured.

Significantly, Leiweke went to great lengths to say that all of this—the expansion of BMO Field, it becoming a multipurpose facility—is in the exploratory phase. *MLSE will use the next six months to consult with engineers, designers and architects to see if the renovation can be achieved* without disrupting the soccer experience. He also stressed that MLSE will solicit fans’ opinions throughout the six-month period via town hall meetings and focus groups before any decision is made.

“We clearly don’t have some hidden plan, nor do we have a secret agreement done with the CFL,” Leiweke promised. “We’re committed to making the experience better—not worse—for TFC. That’s why we need six months. Not just for the fan feedback, but also from an engineering and design evaluation as to whether or not we can find a way we can have multiple events on a grass pitch that enhances the environment for soccer. That’s the guideline. That’s our commitment.”

While Leiweke understands why fans are concerned about proposed renovations to BMO Field, he’s bothered by the suggestion that making the stadium into a multipurpose facility suggests he and MLSE are not fully supportive of TFC.

“For those who think that we don’t love soccer and those who think we’re not committed to the right environment or the grass pitch, are you serious? Look what we’re in the middle of doing here. I love soccer. So can we just for once all calm everyone down and let everyone understand that they have no one—and I mean no one—that is a greater fan, a more passionate leader or more utterly, emotionally committed to building a great soccer franchise here than me,” Leiweke said.

“I have made a solemn pledge, and I will stick by it, that we’re going to make the experience better.”


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## isaidso

flashman said:


> Let's try to remember how well basketball was drawing before the NBA came to Toronto. Well, the numbers were pretty thin for the odd game Buffalo played at Maple Leaf Gardens.
> 
> Let's try to remember how well soccer was drawing before MLS came to Toronto. There were pathetic crowds of 1-2,000 out at west-end Centennial Stadium to watch the Lynx play.


Except that Toronto has had a 154 year long tradition with football and already has an entrenched team in an entrenched league. Both are the oldest of their kind in north America. Football is as large as its going to get with this generation. NFL won't change that. This is a soccer/basketball generation, not a football/hockey one.



flashman said:


> Kids in Toronto are not remotely interested in the CFL.
> 
> The CFL hasn't got a hope of competing anymore.


You're right that kids in Toronto aren't interested in the CFL, but the CFL has also done a lousy job marketing their product in that market and they're speaking to a generation that's largely ignorant/indifferent to their own heritage. That doesn't mean it can't be turned around, but the league needs to learn how to do something it's always been lousy at: creating spectacle and packaging their product wisely. 

The kids in Toronto can either start paying attention to their own team or go without indefinitely because the NFL is not coming here.


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## elly63

Buffalo Bills, Rogers set to meet in two weeks
Could be discussing the viability of the Bills-in-Toronto series
John Kryk QMI Agency January 03, 2014

Is the Bills-in-Toronto series about to get the boot?

The Buffalo Bills and Rogers Media Inc. are meeting in two weeks, QMI Agency has learned exclusively.

Representatives from the two sides are scheduled to sit down together during the week of Jan. 12, according to a source in the position to know who wished not to be identified.

While the source would not say who called the meeting and why, nor what is on the agenda, it is more than possible -- probably likely -- that the purpose is to discuss the future of the disappointing series, which sees the Bills annually relocate one of their eight regular-season home games to Toronto’s Rogers Centre.

A Bills spokesman on Friday afternoon denied that a meeting has been set, telling QMI Agency, “We have nothing scheduled at this time.”

A Rogers Media Inc. representative could not be immediately reached.

Does Rogers want out? Do the Bills want out? Do both sides want out?

As QMI Agency reported exclusively last month, there is no provision in the current five-year contract for either side to unilaterally opt out; it would have to be a joint decision.

The current deal has five games remaining over the next four years: the annual regular-season games, plus a one-off preseason game, year to be determined.

Given recent statements from Bills president Russ Brandon, which could best be described as non-committal about the future of the Toronto series, it would be no surprise if the NFL team has asked to meet with the Canadian media giant to seek an end to the souring enterprise that has been a PR nightmare for all involved.


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## GunnerJacket

will101 said:


> The 30,000 that turned out in November was the least-healthy crowd the NFL has had in decades. I guarantee the gnomes at 345 Park Avenue buried the idea of a Toronto franchise that day.


I wouldn't say buried because I do believe the NFL still has bizarre international expansion plans and in the right circumstances I can see where a franchise would work. However I rate it right now as but a long-odd chance and one that will not likely happen in the forseeable future.

If I'm the CFL I'd also work with the NFL on a form of no-compete agreement that finds the league's cross-promoting each other and guaranteeing the NFL stay out of their cities for at least 20-30 years. I still contend the NFL would be better served by having a strong CFL as an off season fix for US football fans.



elly63 said:


> Leiweke soothes TFC fan worries over BMO expansion


Sounds like MLSE is basically using the projected costs of the stadium expansion and operations as the determining factor in whether or not to pursue the Argos.

Regardless this should make the TFC fans happy that (in theory) they remain the owners' chief priority.


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## shhyvoodoo

Again, I had wrote this i think in this same thread months ago. The NFL RESPECTS the CFL territorial operation. There is a lot of kids leaving college who played football and they need a place to play. The NFL understands that as they want kids to continue their playing careers in maybe hopes of some of them would eventually play in the NFL. What some of you guys in Canada that wants the NFL there don't understand is If the NFL was gonna expand internationally, the London market is LIGHT YEARS more attractive than Toronto is. 

And all this mess about the CFL dwindling and going down, please. Its in a better position than they were 10 years ago before Cohon became commissioner so don't count them out. Their stadia is improving and so will the attendance. Despite what everyone on here says, the CFL is on the rebound and will continue to improve and be a place for imports to play simple as that. Now that Ottawa is back on board, a 10th team in the maritimes should be priority now.. 

Sorry Toronto, THE NFL IS NOT COMING... Accept it.


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## Cjones2451

shhyvoodoo said:


> Sorry Toronto, THE NFL IS NOT COMING... Accept it.


It always seems to me with NFL supporters in Canada, that they need to put down the CFL to justify their interest in the NFL, why can't you be a football fan and like both, they have different rules, etc. but it is football. Go down and support the Argos on a Friday or Saturday night, and then park your a$$ on the couch all day on Sunday and watch the NFL or go to a game in Buffalo.


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## shhyvoodoo

Cjones2451 said:


> It always seems to me with NFL supporters in Canada, that they need to put down the CFL to justify their interest in the NFL, why can't you be a football fan and like both, they have different rules, etc. but it is football. Go down and support the Argos on a Friday or Saturday night, and then park your a$$ on the couch all day on Sunday and watch the NFL or go to a game in Buffalo.


THANK YOU for this!! Look i have been watching CFL football since the days they were on ESPN in the early 80s. I love the league because it is honestly a good alternative to the NFL. The 3 down rule makes the teams play ALL 60 minutes. In the NFL, if the score is 40-13, the games is all but over. In the CFL, its still game on!! Like I said, the CFL has the fan base to survive. The stadia is improving, the product on the field is pretty damn good and when (yes WHEN) they add a 10th franchise, they can move to another level. Thats what so great about Commisioner Cohon. He wants long term stability for the league and is doing the a good job with that. The CFL is also working with the CIS to promote the game to the youth but talent is not an issue. 

It's like the NFL fans in Canada are praying for the CFLs demise but this league has been around for over 50 years WITH the NFL next door. The league should have folded at least 3 times in the last 20 years but they always come up with a plan to keep the business going. Ottawa WILL WORK this time and if they can get a franchise in Quebec City or in the maritimes, they will be fine.


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## flashman

Never assume that because I post information and opinion on the NFL coming to Toronto that I'm a CFL basher or NFL lover. I have no dog in this fight regarding which code of football is played in Toronto.

I worked at Argos games in my youth, and was a staunch follower. I hated Russ Jackson. No one works up that kind of feeling without caring. 

Quiet, but significant, talk continues to swirl about MLSE's NFL ambitions. In the wake of their very newsworthy day on the soccer front, there's still word that their NFL interest remains very much alive. 

They've agreed a commercial partnership with English Premier League club Tottenham Hotspur. That club was on the verge of building a new 56,000-seat stadium next door to their current ground. Then it halted. They changed architects, bringing in Populus, the world's largest stadium designers. Word leaked out that it is being expanded from it's initially-proposed 56,000 to around 70,000 configured to house both soccer and NFL football. 

Wembley has been used by the NFL since the inception of their neutral site games in London but there's issues regarding using this stadium more than a set number of dates per year. It's core product is soccer, but it also houses a handful of concerts and other events each year. The current 2 or 3 game NFL series provides a nice supplemental income and heightens visibility, but it's not feasible to house a NFL club there for a full season, as many as 10 or 11 games annually. Hard on the grass pitch, which needs to be flawless for England's national team or FA Cup matches.

The NFL needed to find another site to house it's prospective London team. Spurs new stadium is being designed to be tight, atmospheric and with great sightlines and word is it will accomodate both natural grass and artificial playing surfaces. The lower capacity from Wembley means less concerns presenting a sold-out image. 

MLSE are on board to help push this project over the top. So, what's in it for them?

Money? Hey, they already make a fortune every year. While the commission from such a venture could be substantial, it's hardly likely to draw more sponsors to their saturated sponsorship arrangements at the Air Canada Centre. There has to be something bigger in it for players of MLSE's magnitude. 

Could it be partial or total ownership of both Tottenham Hotspur and the NFL club? Maybe. Tim Leiweke is the man to build that bridge, having worked with Spurs before in their bid to take over the Olympic stadium site before joining MLSE.

Or could it be undertaking a nicely profitable endeavour that flexes their corporate muscles, gives them a great window into NFL dealings and helps generate a massive amount of political goodwill within that league's corridors of power?

There is no way on Earth that the CFL could ever hope to match the potential revenue that MLSE would earn from being involved in the two biggest leagues in the world. It's a safe bet that MLSE would prefer to maintain an involvement in one of them within its home base of operations.


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## carnifex2005

MLSE looked at buying an EPL team in the past. I could easily see them wanting to operate a NFL team in London if they are able to come to an agreement with Spurs over a joint use stadium. I'm not sure that MLSE has the money to build a new stadium and buy a team in Toronto themselves but it could work if they have a partner like an EPL team. Hell, Leiweke stated today in a radio interview that MLSE recently talked with Spurs about helping them with their stadium situation in London.


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## GunnerJacket

I cannot see a 70k stadium on the Tottenham site without the club reneging on all the other development promised for the area. And and NFL team would harm Spurs field just as much as Wembley, meaning Spurs would hate it.


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## elly63

Tim Leiweke on BMO (starts at 13:15). He states MLSE will pay most of the tab for new stadium refurb.


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## flashman

carnifex2005 said:


> MLSE looked at buying an EPL team in the past. I could easily see them wanting to operate a NFL team in London if they are able to come to an agreement with Spurs over a joint use stadium. I'm not sure that MLSE has the money to build a new stadium and buy a team in Toronto themselves but it could work if they have a partner like an EPL team. Hell, Leiweke stated today in a radio interview that MLSE recently talked with Spurs about helping them with their stadium situation in London.


Amazing how speculation spins. MLSE pres Richard Peddie was in London for a soccer trade show. He took in a Spurs game. Some say he enjoyed a meal in the Spurs directors lounge. Spurs chairman Daniel Levy might have been there, yet both parties denied any talks took place regarding MLSE buying part or all of Spurs. Peddie came home the next day. Nothing else ever happened in regard to these parties doing business until Tim Leiweke came on board at MLSE a few years later. Great day out for Peddie and excellent PR boost for both clubs.

NFL regs forbid a corporation from owning a franchise. Has to be an individual at the helm. No shortage of suitably deep pockets in Toronto. MLSE certainly have the money, experience and ambition to build an NFL-sized stadium.

If MLSE's involvement with Spurs evolves into a NFL franchise moving into the new stadium in Tottenham, it could well be good news for the CFL at BMO Field. As I'll explain in my next response.


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## flashman

GunnerJacket said:


> I cannot see a 70k stadium on the Tottenham site without the club reneging on all the other development promised for the area. And and NFL team would harm Spurs field just as much as Wembley, meaning Spurs would hate it.


All that development _proposed/I] for the area around Spurs new stadium is still very much in a state of flux. Several options have been offered by local government for local residents to respond to. 

If the NFL moved into Spurs new stadium, the economic impact would more than justify alterations to the related development.

And, nyet, Tovarich, a NFL team would most certainly not harm Spurs field. Leaked details regarding the new stadium concept suggest they're planning to install a removable playing surface. This could involve shifting out the grass pitch that Spurs use to lay a synthetic turf field on the underlying floor, or creating a structure that sits above the natural grass surface in a manner similar to how NBA hardwood floors are installed over NHL ice hockey surfaces in many North American arenas. Either way, Spurs will play on a surface that closely matches their current award-winning pitch.

Where this gets interesting for the CFL, just to swing back on topic, is that whatever field-switching technology Spurs adopt could well be matched by MLSE at BMO Field, if they choose to support the Argos._


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## elly63

flashman said:


> whatever field-switching technology Spurs adopt could well be matched by MLSE at BMO Field, if they choose to support the Argos.


Can't see it for three reasons. One, it is prohibitively expensive either to have turf trays like Reliant Stadium in Houston or a retractable natural grass playing surface like in the University of Phoenix Stadium. 

Two, I'm not sure if there is the actual physical room to have a retractable surface and...

Three, Leiweke has already stated countless times the turf issue could be solved by scheduling, and his example has been BBVA Compass stadium in Houston, home of the MLS Dynamo and Texas Southern University football.


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## elly63

City of Ottawa
January 17, 2013

- At the north stands, the contractor is pouring the concrete foundations for the new field-level seating
- Work continues to install the new roof over the arena
- At the south stands, brackets that will support the horizontal beams of the wooden structure that wraps around the stands, called ‘the Veil’, are now being installed
- Tiling in the washrooms in the future locker rooms in the basement level has started
- Building the suites and finishing concessions on the upper levels continues
- Exterior cladding is being installed on the media box at the top level of the stands

The stadium when viewed from Bank Street and the Rideau Canal continues to take shape









Concrete is poured into forms for the footings of the new field level seating in front of the north stands









In the service level of the south stands, tile is being installed in the team locker rooms and showers









At the back of the south stands, metal brackets to hold the horizontal pieces of the Veil have been installed on the vertical beams









Staging of construction equipment and supplies on the stadium field make it very busy


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## Empici




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## ChesterCopperpot

^^^^^^^^^ ??


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## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Construction Update - January 17
Ticats TV checks in on the construction of Tim Hortons Field


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## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Hamilton January 16/2014
Photos courtesy ticats.ca


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## elly63

Re: Construction Cam at Tim Hortons Field
Post by Site Super ticats.ca Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:26 pm

I can assure you that we are doing everything in our power to ensure that the stadium *opens on time*. We have selected the best trades, the best designers and will do everything we can so Hamilton can see the Ticats kick the crap out of visiting teams this year.

Stay tuned for lots of progress and changes over the next few months.


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## elly63

MLSE's Leiweke: Taxpayers would be paid back for BMO Field expansion
Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment CEO Tim Leiweke says MLSE would pay “almost all” of the cost of expanding the Toronto FC stadium
Daniel Dale City Hall, thestar.com Jan 19 2014









DAVID COOPER / TORONTO STAR
BMO Field, at Exhibition Place, could be expanded from its present 20,000 capacity to 30,000 - and up to 40,000 on a temporary basis, as for the Pan Am Games in 2015.

Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment could expand BMO Field in time for the July 2015 Pan Am Games, its chief executive says — but only if MLSE and the government can come to a financial agreement “very” soon.

BMO Field, owned by the city, is home to Major League Soccer team Toronto FC, owned by MLSE. CEO Tim Leiweke, fresh off a splashy $100 million investment in two players, wants to add a partial roof and more seats to a seven-year-old facility that he says has already “fallen behind the rest of the league.”

The $63-million stadium was built with about $45 million in public funds, including $10 million in cash from the city — plus a city donation of land worth $10 million.

Taxpayer funding of sports facilities is perpetually contentious. Leiweke said he believes the renovation agreement “will be a deal that won’t have a lot of controversy to it”: this time, he said, MLSE expects to pay the majority of the costs.

“What we’re trying to figure out is a way to get the renovation done where the majority of the burden, almost all of the burden, falls upon us, the private sector,” Leiweke said in an interview Thursday.

The total, he said, could amount to “twice” the price tag for the original project. He said Toronto taxpayers would probably make some initial payment. But he said MLSE would later return money to the public purse.

“I think if there is any contribution, it’ll be one where they get paid back over a period of time and get a healthy rate of return. So the significant majority portion of this is going to end up being us, and we get that,” he said.

“One of the things the city’s asked for is that we backstop a minimum revenue stream annually that would get their money back, plus some, over the period of the lease. So the city wants certainty. We’re working through that.”

Councillor Michael Thompson, chair of the economic development committee, said the deal under discussion would not come at any final cost to the city.

“It would net itself out. If you invested $10, at some point you’ll get the $10 back,” plus a return, Thompson said. He argued the investment would be an economic boon to the city, generating hotel stays, retail sales and other activity.

Leiweke said the project could be done in phases. The first phase would improve the concourses and increase the permanent seating capacity from about 22,000 to 30,000. The second phase, which could be completed in 2016, would build a roof over the seating area.

Leiweke said the renovation would allow for a temporary capacity of 40,000 for a major event like the NHL’s Winter Classic. To the chagrin of many TFC supporters, it would also position BMO Field as a potential home for the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts, who are not owned by MLSE.

“We are looking for a new home for our football team, and renovated BMO Field could be a great location for the Argos in the future,” said team spokesman Eric Holmes. “At this point, however, it is premature to say we will be there.”

Leiweke said the renovation is “not about us ultimately owning the Argos and putting them in there.” He then, immediately, made clear that the Argos are part of the equation.

“I think trying to find a solution so that there’s not another need, in another day, for a CFL stadium, is certainly something that has been raised,” he said.

The project may be more imminent than previously understood. Government officials, Leiweke said, have asked if the first phase could be completed in time for the Pan Ams. He said that is possible only if construction begins this summer. City council would have to approve the project within months.

“We understand that part of what they’re asking out of us is if they can have some upside on seating capacity for the Rugby Sevens competition that will take place during the Pan Am Games, and thus an economic benefit to the Pan Am Games, and a stadium that looks great in the eyes of the world,” Leiweke said.

Any BMO deal is likely to involve other levels of government. Jasmine Gill, a spokesman for provincial Tourism, Culture and Sport minister Michael Chan, said the province has not yet received any request for money but is “always open to exploring opportunities that will enhance Ontario’s profile as a premier destination for sporting events.”


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## elly63

Ice storm delays Hamilton Pan Am stadium construction by 2 weeks
Samantha Craggs, CBC News Jan 21, 2014

Crews are working double time on the new Pan Am stadium to make up for a two-week delay caused in part by a recent ice storm.

The late-December ice storm, combined with problems with a masonry company, has slowed construction on the new Tim Horton's Field, said Garreth Barkey, site supervisor with Kenaidan Contracting Ltd.

In early February, crews will start working double shifts, which will continue until the June 30 deadline, Barkey said. So he’s confident the stadium will be ready on time.

“We all want to meet this date so we can deliver for the city of Hamilton and the Ticats as well as ourselves,” Barkey said after a Pan Am subcommittee meeting Tuesday.

The stadium is more than half done, and will be 95 per cent done by the time it hands over the keys to the city in June, he said.

“We’re very confident.”

The ice storm knocked out power for some parts of Hamilton for as long as four days. Other areas, such as Toronto, were out longer.

That impacted suppliers and manufacturers, which made it difficult to get deliveries and run equipment, Barkey said. Some workers couldn’t even get to the site.

“There are a lot of direct and indirect effects when weather events like that happen,” he said.

Also in December, the Kitchener-Waterloo masonry company hired to do the brick work went into receivership, he said. A Toronto company has since replaced it.

Barkey dismissed rumours that soil instability contributed to the delay. He just heard the rumour last week and was “very surprised” by it, he said.

“The ground itself is a native shale,” he said. “The areas that the structures are built on are concrete pad footings. All of the pad footings are founded on sound material. That is, yes, a rumour.”

Coun. Lloyd Ferguson, chair of the Pan Am subcommittee, has a background in construction. When he drove by the site on the weekend, he said, it didn't look as far along as he thought it would.

“I wasn’t comfortable with it,” he said. “I’ve been working with staff on the last few days getting an update.”

But he feels better now that he's heard about the double shifts, he said.

The Pan Am precinct will get a flurry of new development in the next two years. This will include a new high school, a new recreation and seniors centre and a new outdoor sports complex. The city will begin some “shave and pave” road work later this year to spruce of the streets for the development, and for the 2015 Pan Am Games, said Gerry Davis, head of public works.

The new 22,500-seat stadium will host 32 soccer games for the 2015 Pan Am Games. It is also the future home of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.

It costs $147.5 million, with the city contributing $54 million. The delay will not affect the budget, Barkey said.


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## elly63

Pan Am stadium construction falls behind schedule
Builder vows to have it ready for June deadline
Matthew Van Dongen The Hamilton Spectator January 22/2014

The Pan Am stadium's builder is vowing to double-shift crews over six-day weeks to make up a potentially critical delay caused by bad weather and the loss of a major contractor.

Site supervisor Garreth Barkey said Tuesday although the $145-million project is two weeks behind schedule, he is "very confident" the new home of the Hamilton Tiger-Cats will be turned over to the city by a June 30 deadline — just before the usual start of the Canadian Football League season.

In October, the Tiger-Cats said the team was working on a backup plan in case of delays and had asked the league to schedule early-season games on the road — but Ottawa, which also has a stadium under construction, may need similar help.

Typically, teams play one road and one exhibition game before the regular season begins on Canada Day weekend.

At a city Pan Am committee meeting Tuesday, Ticats president Glen Gibson repeatedly asked how quickly the stadium builder could get back on schedule. But by the end of the day, CEO Scott Mitchell said in an interview the team's "level of concern is zero."

"I don't think it's a delay, I think what they said is that they are behind schedule but that their expectation is that it will delivered on time and on budget," he said.

Councillor Lloyd Ferguson, the Pan Am committee co-chair, noted the stadium builder recovered from an earlier delay in the fall during structural steel work. He also applauded the latest plan to have contractors working extended hours into June, if necessary.

"But I don't want to mislead anyone, it's a very aggressive schedule," he said after Tuesday's meeting.

Ferguson said the loss of well-known Waterloo-area contractor Kappeler Masonry, which went into receivership in early December, "came right out of the blue."

That curveball sent the stadium builder, the consortium Ontario Sports Solutions, and Infrastructure Ontario scrambling to find a quick replacement — and spurred a series of liens worth about $200,000 against the stadium property from unpaid subcontractors and bricklayers.

It wasn't immediately clear what the contractor switcheroo will mean to the $145-million project's bottom line. Infrastructure Ontario spokesperson Terence Foran wouldn't say if the original masonry company was required to provide a performance bond because the information is "confidential" for business reasons.

Any legal headaches arising from the lost contractor are the responsibility of Infrastructure Ontario, said Gerry Davis, the city's general manager of public works.

Davis said the city will withhold payment to Infrastructure Ontario in the amount represented by the liens until they're cleared. The city is putting up about $45 million of the total stadium cost.

Overall the stadium is about halfway done, with as many as 130 workers on site each day, often for extended hours. The project has so far survived delayed steel installation, rumours of soil instability and allegations by a local contractor of corner-cutting on electrical installation.

Davis said the delivery of locally manufactured structural steel was delayed in the fall, but there were no issues with quality or meeting design specifications. He also said soil conditions are fine for construction, but added an old, unused pipe was discovered underground and had to be removed.


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## Cjones2451

*2026 World Cup*

Just trying to get some discussion and ideas here...

So the CSA (Candian Soccer Ass'n) in its new plan says it wants to bid for the 2026 World Cup. If Canada hosts the 2026 World Cup, the biggest benefit would be to the CFL and then to Canadian Soccer, maybe a bit to MLS altought I can't see more than 3 teams still. So who are the host stadia? We would need at least 10

Toronto - Needs a brand new 80K seat stadium
Montreal - Complete retrofit of Olympic Stadium includung a functioning 
retractable roof
Vancouver - BC Place -would need grass, but ready to go
Edmonton - would need grass but good to go
Winnipeg - would need grass and seating to get it to 40K
Regina - would need grass and seating to get new stadium to 40K (ETA 2017)
Ottawa - would need grass and seating to get to 40K (quite a bit of endzone 
seating here, maybe permanent seating is taken to the 28-30K range
Calgary - would need a completly new stadium or major retrofit of McMahon
Hamilton - Tim Horton's field with temp seating to 40K, same scenario as 
Ottawa, maybe an opportunity to get permanent seating to 
28-30K range

Halifax? - would finally get a stadium
Quebec City? - new stadium or retrofit PEPS
Toronto - BMO?

Any other thoughts - costs? - $2.5 - $3.0 B??? Toronto and Montreal would be big $$
Does FIFA require a certain % covered seating? If so what does that do to completly open stadiums like Commonwealth and THF, they would need some type of roof structure.


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## Benn

You would be talking about $1.3 billion for Toronto, probably $400-500 million for Montreal, say $250+ million for a new stadium in Calgary, I would think some substantial work in Edmonton (at least $100 million). Then Whatever Regina end up spending on theirs and temprorary seating at the rest. Plus whatever gets spent on the inevitable airport expansions, hotels etc. Total cost would end up being a lot higher than $3 billion for all the requisite infrastructure, but just for stadiums, something like $3-4 billion sounds feasible. 

FIFA requires some covered premium areas and covered press seating, but its not a huge percentage of a given stadium. That having been said the completely open air stadiums in Canada would need to retrofit roofs over one stand to provide requisite covered press seating (its a lot of seats). So that plus big endzone expansions and possibly enlarged VIP areas would certainly add to the cost of Tim Horton's and Commonwealth Stadium etc.


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## Bobby3

Moncton?


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## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> I'm not up to speed on the issue, how would an oval work for soccer? Are people too far from the action? Would that involve moving stands to get people closer? From the above, it said that soccer has been played at the MCG.


Most Australian ovals are no larger than athletics stadiums. In fact the MCG had to remove some seats to fit in a track for the Commonwealth Games a few years back. So yes an OVAL is just as suited as a football stadium....


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## Andrew51

WOw.. There's Stadium is a very huge and beautiful!!


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## carnifex2005

*ARGONAUTS COULD SOON BE SOLD TO MLSE OR TANENBAUM*

The Toronto Argonauts could be sold within a matter of weeks, either to Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment or its chairman, Larry Tanenbaum, according to multiple sources.

Talks between David Braley and MLSE have heated up in recent months to the point that the MLSE board, which includes Tanenbaum as well as representatives from Bell and Rogers, was asked to vote during December on acquiring the CFL team.

While the board could not agree on the matter, there remains the possibility that MLSE could revisit buying the team or that Tanenbaum himself may purchase it.

An Argo purchase by MLSE or Tanenbaum makes potential sense from both ends of the deal.

From the Argos perspective, the team is in desperate need of a new practice facility, having been told by the University of Toronto that its Mississauga campus can no longer house the football team. With three months until the opening of CFL training camps, a sale would presumably open the door to the Argos taking up residence at the KIA Training Ground, the practice home of Toronto FC which includes three full-size grass fields, four artificial fields and a 40,000 square foot field house in Downsview.

Being sold to Tanenbaum or MLSE would make the Argos part of the plan for a redesigned BMO Field, thus solving their need to build a new home from scratch when they vacate Rogers Centre after the 2017 season.
MLSE president and CEO Tim Lieweke has stated several times in recent months that the Argos could factor into future plans at BMO, a position in stark contrast to that of his predecessors, who saw the facility as soccer-only.

From the perspective of Tanenbaum or MLSE, owning the Argos could be a chip towards the goal of securing a National Football League team, based on the NFL wanting assurance that moving a team to Toronto would not kill the Argos or the CFL.

"(Tanenbaum) has always had an affection for them," said former MLSE president and CEO Richard Peddie. "Everything I'm hearing is that that the NFL is telling them that if you want an NFL team, you better make sure the Argos are okay. I don't think it's out of the realm that he may do it."

As well, having the Argos as a second tenant at BMO Field could help MLSE's drive to secure investment from government to redevelop the stadium, which is a publicly-owned facility operated by MLSE exclusively for soccer at this time.

"I've got to believe that they're thinking of the Argos in that facility," said Peddie. "Can you design a stadium with moveable sections and not lose the intimacy? Yes, you probably can."

The Argonauts are currently owned by Hamilton businessman David Braley, who has been exploring options for a new stadium in the Greater Toronto Area in recent months.
Though the Argonauts have consistently lost money at Rogers Centre, it is believed their business model could continue to improve with the right arrangement at BMO, combined with increased revenues from the CFL's new television deal which kicks in this season.

This isn't the first time MLSE has looked at a potential Argo purchase. The Argos had been offered up to MLSE when the team was owned by David Cynamon and Howard Sololowski, who sold to David Braley in February of 2010.

However, the ownership of MLSE and many of the dynamics within the city's professional sports scene have changed since those days, most notably with Lieweke's arrival and the notion of trying to land an NFL team.
In November, reports surfaced of Tanenbaum, Lieweke and rock star Jon Bon Jovi teaming up to pursue a future relocation of the Buffalo Bills to Toronto.


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## elly63

5portsF4n said:


> Ovals have been used for soccer matches pretty much all around the world, particularly as a result of multi-purpose venues that cater to athletics. It's not the most ideal situation, but its far from uncommon. The 2006 World Cup final was played in Berlin's Olympic stadium, which is oval.


Let's distinguish between an athletics stadium (with a track) and an oval (commonly used for cricket). This discussion is about ovals. 

Soccer fans complain about sightlines in athletic stadiums stadiums (because of the track) but it seems a cricket oval is that much worse. That shot of the MCG shows the sideline seats being a long way away from the pitch. That can't be good for the fans but didn't seem to affect the gate in that instance above.

Don't know what FIFA would think of that for a WC venue hosting several games and not a one off.


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## Calvin W

elly63 said:


> Let's distinguish between an athletics stadium (with a track) and an oval (commonly used for cricket). This discussion is about ovals.
> 
> Soccer fans complain about sightlines in athletic stadiums stadiums (because of the track) but it seems a cricket oval is that much worse. That shot of the MCG shows the sideline seats being a long way away from the pitch. That can't be good for the fans but didn't seem to affect the gate in that instance above.
> 
> Don't know what FIFA would think of that for a WC venue hosting several games and not a one off.


Check out the gaps in Brazil this year. They would be similar to Australian stadiums.


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## Guest

Calvin W said:


> Check out the gaps in Brazil this year. They would be similar to Australian stadiums.


Not even close. Which of these stadiums is even remotely similar to MCG? 










The worst one might be the one in Porto Alegre, and it appears to have infinitely better sightlines compared to MCG, Etihad Stadium, Adelaide Oval, or the one in Perth.


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## Walbanger

elly63 said:


> Let's distinguish between an athletics stadium (with a track) and an oval (commonly used for cricket). This discussion is about ovals.
> 
> Soccer fans complain about sightlines in athletic stadiums stadiums (because of the track) but it seems a cricket oval is that much worse. That shot of the MCG shows the sideline seats being a long way away from the pitch. That can't be good for the fans but didn't seem to affect the gate in that instance above.
> 
> Don't know what FIFA would think of that for a WC venue hosting several games and not a one off.


Still, there is great variation in the dimension of Cricket/Aussie Rules Ovals.
Yes Oval's will generally be wider than Athletic Track field but they are also almost always shorter in length. The MCG is the largest field in area and the widest. Etihad has moveable seating like Stade de France. ANZ Stadium is soon to upgrade it's movable ground tier to bring the ends in like the sidelines. Kardinya Park in Geelong and Subiaco Oval in Perth have the long/narrower dimensions of an Athletics field rather than that of a Cricket Oval.


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## Guest

Walbanger said:


> Still, there is great variation in the dimension of Cricket/Aussie Rules Ovals.
> Yes Oval's will generally be wider than Athletic Track field but they are also almost always shorter in length. The MCG is the largest field in area and the widest. Etihad has moveable seating like Stade de France. ANZ Stadium is soon to upgrade it's movable ground tier to bring the ends in like the sidelines. Kardinya Park in Geelong and Subiaco Oval in Perth have the long/narrower dimensions of an Athletics field rather than that of a Cricket Oval.


I've seen Etihad configuration when the seats are moved in, and it's very unflattering. I think its better in its oval configuration. I don't know the exact dimensions, but it seems smaller than the MCG, which would be beneficial in this instance.


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## elly63

Tks to Ramako at skyscraperpage for headsup

Leiweke hints MLSE may buy Argonauts, with NFL also in mind
MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke gave a wide ranging speech Tuesday, touching on Drake, the CFL, Toronto sports culture and the ‘bloody big deal.’
Zoe McKnight Staff Reporter thestar.com Jan 28 2014

At a candid speech Tuesday night, Tim Leiweke — the MLSE CEO known for the kind of off-the-cuff comments that make communications staff nervous — may have hinted at a future deal between the company he directs and the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts.

Leiweke has said MLSE is interested in paying for an expansion of city-owned BMO Field, and soon, to include a partial roof and more seats.

At the TIFF Bell Lightbox on Tuesday — the same day TSN published a report that talks between MLSE and current Argos owner David Braley were “heating up” — Leiweke said he’d be willing to share the refurbished field with a CFL team.

“*We’re going to spend $120 million to build an English Premier (League)-style stadium, with a roof that covers the seats,*” Leiweke said.

“*Yeah, there are rumours there may be a CFL solution, but we’ll do it in a way you’ll never know there’s a CFL team when you’re there for a soccer game, and you’ll never know there’s a soccer team when you’re there for a CFL game. It’s engineering and we can fix that.*”

Later, he said giving football fans a chance to watch games in the new stadium would help not only the CFL, but an eventual push for an NFL team.

“I think giving fans an opportunity to go see an Argos game outdoors in a stadium with a roof that covers the seat, in a 30,000-seat environment, with real grass, is awesome, and it will help turn that franchise around.

“So we’re going to start with that. *There’s no way the NFL comes here without the CFL being unbelievably successful first*.”

MLSE communications staff declined to comment further Tuesday night, as did the CFL.

Toronto Argos chairman and CEO Chris Rudge said while he couldn’t comment on any deal between the team’s owner and MLSE, he’d be happy to play at BMO Field.

After their Rogers Centre lease runs out in 2017, the team will need a new place to play, and Rudge said he’d be happy to return to Exhibition Place, the Argos’ former home, even as a tenant.

“I’d be delighted to hear someone would like to build us a home,” he said.

“If something more were to happen, that will work itself out,” he said, deferring to Braley and MLSE.

Another tidbit Leiweke let slip — throwing in an “am I going to get in trouble for doing this?” directed at his PR team — was a new program starting next NHL season to give away a “couple hundred” Leafs tickets each regular season game.

The tickets will go to the members of Leafs Nation, those who have never been able to afford the high ticket prices, who will attend a game for the first time as a guest of MLSE.

“We’ve got to introduce a new noise level, a new culture and a whole new generation of fans into that building,” he said.

Other future plans include involving Raptors global ambassador and hip hop megastar Drake in more MLSE business. MLSE wants to create a nightclub at the Air Canada Centre and Drake “might be a partner in that,” Leiweke said.

What it adds up to, he hopes, is the creation of a new culture among MLSE’s sports teams, starting with BMO Field.

“The city deserves it, our fans deserve it. And this is the message we’re sending all of our teams from this point on. We mean business. We want to win championships.”

Professional soccer will be as popular as the NHL in just a decade, Leiweke told the crowd of marketing professionals, which is partly why the company decided to shock the soccer world by spending tens of millions of dollars earlier this month to bring Jermain Defoe and Michael Bradley to TFC.

The deal with American midfielder Bradley, the “heart and soul of U.S. national team,” even came as a surprise to U.S. head coach Jurgen Klinsmann, who had told Leiweke the deal would never happen — in the midst of negotiations and just days before the papers were signed.


----------



## The Real Gazmon

5portsF4n said:


> I've seen Etihad configuration when the seats are moved in, and it's very unflattering. I think its better in its oval configuration. I don't know the exact dimensions, but it seems smaller than the MCG, which would be beneficial in this instance.


I've been there with them in and the atmosphere is killed by it, not to mention it looks very tacky.

When down the bottom it feels as if you're at a different game compared to those up the back, it just loses it's intimacy - even though you are closer to the pitch.

Whether it be an athletics track, AFL or cricket oval, having a non-rectangular field does detract from the experience (IMHO). The best venue in Australia I have been too (and I've been to every major test cricket venue, bar Tasmania, and all football/soccer venues, bar the redeveloped nib Stadium) and that's Suncorp... if only they could get the pitch sorted.


----------



## Hieber

If they can keep the sight lines good and keep the field grass, then do whatever you want.


----------



## Guest

elly63 said:


> Tks to Ramako at skyscraperpage for headsup
> 
> Leiweke hints MLSE may buy Argonauts, with NFL also in mind
> MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke gave a wide ranging speech Tuesday, touching on Drake, the CFL, Toronto sports culture and the ‘bloody big deal.’
> Zoe McKnight Staff Reporter thestar.com Jan 28 2014
> 
> At the TIFF Bell Lightbox on Tuesday — the same day TSN published a report that talks between MLSE and current Argos owner David Braley were “heating up” — Leiweke said he’d be willing to share the refurbished field with a CFL team.
> 
> “*We’re going to spend $120 million to build an English Premier (League)-style stadium, with a roof that covers the seats,*” Leiweke said.


Good. 



> “*Yeah, there are rumours there may be a CFL solution, but we’ll do it in a way you’ll never know there’s a CFL team when you’re there for a soccer game, and you’ll never know there’s a soccer team when you’re there for a CFL game. It’s engineering and we can fix that.*”


Good. 



> Later, he said giving football fans a chance to watch games in the new stadium would help not only the CFL, but an eventual push for an NFL team.
> 
> “I think giving fans an opportunity to go see an Argos game outdoors in a stadium with a roof that covers the seat, in a 30,000-seat environment, with real grass, is awesome, and it will help turn that franchise around.
> 
> “So we’re going to start with that. *There’s no way the NFL comes here without the CFL being unbelievably successful first*.”


Umm... okay? 



> Professional soccer will be as popular as the NHL in just a decade, Leiweke told the crowd of marketing professionals, which is partly why the company decided to shock the soccer world by spending tens of millions of dollars earlier this month to bring Jermain Defoe and Michael Bradley to TFC.


----------



## elly63

Rumours fly: Are the Toronto Argonauts being bought by MLSE?
Don Landry ca.sports.yahoo.com 55 Yard Line

The rumours have been floating out there for some time, now.

Would Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment be interested in purchasing the Toronto Argonauts? Would part-owner of MLSE, Larry Tanenbaum be?

While those rumours have been circulated and decried a number of times since last spring, it seems there is plenty of smoke around them now to declare that there is fire evident.

That's what TSN's Dave Naylor - who is exceptionally well plugged in when it comes to matters of the CFL - is reporting in a story on TSN's website.

Naylor writes:

The Toronto Argonauts could be sold within a matter of weeks, either to Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment or its chairman, Larry Tanenbaum, according to multiple sources.

Talks between David Braley and MLSE have heated up in recent months to the point that the MLSE board, which includes Tanenbaum as well as representatives from Bell and Rogers, was asked to vote during December on acquiring the CFL team.

It's been no secret that Argos owner David Braley - who also owns the B.C. Lions - has been searching for someone to purchase the team. The league itself would welcome a new owner, as the optics of one person owning two teams has never been considered positive.

As Naylor reports, the matter of purchasing the Toronto Argonauts has even gone so far as to reach the inner confines of the board rooms of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, although it has been met with some push back.

That's where a pretty good battle might be waged between Bell Media and Rogers, who own equal shares of MLSE. While Rogers has not shown itself to be particularly friendly to the CFL and the Argos, with a distinct lack of coverage of the league and team on its outlets, Bell is a major partner with the CFL, as it owns TSN, the exclusive carrier of the league. While Rogers executives might not have any skin in the game when it comes to the CFL, Bell obviously does. The question is: Can they win the battle to bring the Argos into the fold?

Bell Media would be very interested in securing a more stable road ahead for the Argos, who face an uncertain future right now. The Rogers-owned Toronto Blue Jays have announced that they will be installing real grass in their stadium (also owned by Rogers), in time for the 2018 season. The Argonauts, North America's oldest professional sports franchise, will need a home once they complete the 2017 season.

*For their part, a highly-placed source with MLSE told me last spring that the company had no interest in seeing the Argos orphaned, even as the company continued to lay the groundwork for acquiring an NFL team. MLSE, they said, was not thrilled with the notion that they could be seen as the ones with the black hats, should the Argos be forced to move out of Toronto.

In fact, a new stadium was in the early planning stages for both the Argos and MLSE's soccer team, Toronto FC, I was told. However, it would have been built in conjunction with a multi-billion dollar casino and resort project that was being proposed by MGM for the Exhibition Place grounds and when that died at Toronto city council last May, so did the stadium*.

There seems to be even more urgency at play for the Argos, according to Naylor:

From the Argos perspective, the team is in desperate need of a new practice facility, having been told by the University of Toronto that its Mississauga campus can no longer house the football team. With three months until the opening of CFL training camps, a sale would presumably open the door to the Argos taking up residence at the KIA Training Ground, the practice home of Toronto FC which includes three full-size grass fields, four artificial fields and a 40,000 square foot field house in Downsview.

Argos players and coaches have long complained about the practice field at the U of T and their semi-permanent offices suffered a terrible blow in 2011 when a fire gutted much of it. A move from that location would not break anyone's heart.

Whether MLSE eventually votes to buy the Argos or Tanenbaum goes about it on his own, it seems the President of MLSE, Tim Leiweke, is a proponent of the Argonauts moving to BMO Field, which currently houses Toronto FC.

*Leiweke has said for the record that he believes a soccer team and football team can coexist at a facility - with natural grass - with careful upkeep and intelligent scheduling*. Lately he's been musing about expanding the stadium from it's current capacity of about 21,000, in order to host bigger events like the Grey Cup Game and an outdoor NHL game.

The possibility of MLSE owning the Argonauts will, no doubt, bother some fans of the football team who see the company - and Tanenbaum - as evil forces who care really only about the NFL.

However, the Argos need a home and they need new ownership. Casting in with MLSE and its penchant for glitz and show biz would be a definite boost for the team's cache in the city of Toronto. It would mean stability. If Leiweke treated the Argos the way he has MLSE's other properties, you'd have to consider it a boon for the business of three down football in Toronto.

If this gets done - forgive me for co-opting a recent MLSE soccer tag line - it'd be a bloody big deal for the Argos.


----------



## IllumL8ker

elly63 said:


> Rumours fly: Are the Toronto Argonauts being bought by MLSE?
> Don Landry ca.sports.yahoo.com 55 Yard Line
> 
> The rumours have been floating out there for some time, now.
> 
> Would Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment be interested in purchasing the Toronto Argonauts? Would part-owner of MLSE, Larry Tanenbaum be?
> 
> While those rumours have been circulated and decried a number of times since last spring, it seems there is plenty of smoke around them now to declare that there is fire evident.
> 
> That's what TSN's Dave Naylor - who is exceptionally well plugged in when it comes to matters of the CFL - is reporting in a story on TSN's website.
> 
> Naylor writes:
> 
> The Toronto Argonauts could be sold within a matter of weeks, either to Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment or its chairman, Larry Tanenbaum, according to multiple sources.
> 
> Talks between David Braley and MLSE have heated up in recent months to the point that the MLSE board, which includes Tanenbaum as well as representatives from Bell and Rogers, was asked to vote during December on acquiring the CFL team.
> 
> It's been no secret that Argos owner David Braley - who also owns the B.C. Lions - has been searching for someone to purchase the team. The league itself would welcome a new owner, as the optics of one person owning two teams has never been considered positive.
> 
> As Naylor reports, the matter of purchasing the Toronto Argonauts has even gone so far as to reach the inner confines of the board rooms of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, although it has been met with some push back.
> 
> That's where a pretty good battle might be waged between Bell Media and Rogers, who own equal shares of MLSE. While Rogers has not shown itself to be particularly friendly to the CFL and the Argos, with a distinct lack of coverage of the league and team on its outlets, Bell is a major partner with the CFL, as it owns TSN, the exclusive carrier of the league. While Rogers executives might not have any skin in the game when it comes to the CFL, Bell obviously does. The question is: Can they win the battle to bring the Argos into the fold?
> 
> Bell Media would be very interested in securing a more stable road ahead for the Argos, who face an uncertain future right now. The Rogers-owned Toronto Blue Jays have announced that they will be installing real grass in their stadium (also owned by Rogers), in time for the 2018 season. The Argonauts, North America's oldest professional sports franchise, will need a home once they complete the 2017 season.
> 
> *For their part, a highly-placed source with MLSE told me last spring that the company had no interest in seeing the Argos orphaned, even as the company continued to lay the groundwork for acquiring an NFL team. MLSE, they said, was not thrilled with the notion that they could be seen as the ones with the black hats, should the Argos be forced to move out of Toronto.
> 
> In fact, a new stadium was in the early planning stages for both the Argos and MLSE's soccer team, Toronto FC, I was told. However, it would have been built in conjunction with a multi-billion dollar casino and resort project that was being proposed by MGM for the Exhibition Place grounds and when that died at Toronto city council last May, so did the stadium*.
> 
> There seems to be even more urgency at play for the Argos, according to Naylor:
> 
> From the Argos perspective, the team is in desperate need of a new practice facility, having been told by the University of Toronto that its Mississauga campus can no longer house the football team. With three months until the opening of CFL training camps, a sale would presumably open the door to the Argos taking up residence at the KIA Training Ground, the practice home of Toronto FC which includes three full-size grass fields, four artificial fields and a 40,000 square foot field house in Downsview.
> 
> Argos players and coaches have long complained about the practice field at the U of T and their semi-permanent offices suffered a terrible blow in 2011 when a fire gutted much of it. A move from that location would not break anyone's heart.
> 
> Whether MLSE eventually votes to buy the Argos or Tanenbaum goes about it on his own, it seems the President of MLSE, Tim Leiweke, is a proponent of the Argonauts moving to BMO Field, which currently houses Toronto FC.
> 
> *Leiweke has said for the record that he believes a soccer team and football team can coexist at a facility - with natural grass - with careful upkeep and intelligent scheduling*. Lately he's been musing about expanding the stadium from it's current capacity of about 21,000, in order to host bigger events like the Grey Cup Game and an outdoor NHL game.
> 
> The possibility of MLSE owning the Argonauts will, no doubt, bother some fans of the football team who see the company - and Tanenbaum - as evil forces who care really only about the NFL.
> 
> However, the Argos need a home and they need new ownership. Casting in with MLSE and its penchant for glitz and show biz would be a definite boost for the team's cache in the city of Toronto. It would mean stability. If Leiweke treated the Argos the way he has MLSE's other properties, you'd have to consider it a boon for the business of three down football in Toronto.
> 
> If this gets done - forgive me for co-opting a recent MLSE soccer tag line - it'd be a bloody big deal for the Argos.


iuno don't quote me on this but what have I been saying NFL in toronto... and the CFL still surviving and flourishing... and a construction boom again in Toronto..  Toronto will be the centre of the sports universe... that's good for canadians and I am all for it... and if Toronto gets a NFL franchise... they would definitely build a big stadium that gets used. The blue jays will build a new stadium too by around 2026.. (built in 86 and that means 40 years old, it will be outdated) and I am all for the Argo's and TFC sharing a renovated BMO field too! :cheers:


----------



## IllumL8ker

lets see how many supertalls Toronto can have... we got to keep up with the United States their dollar is already rising quick... let's get some big money in Canada...


----------



## flashman

This was an interesting line a few posts back:

_"Though the Argonauts have consistently lost money at Rogers Centre, it is believed their business model could continue to improve with the right arrangement at BMO,..."_

Pretty hard to improve a business model when they're playing in a stadium rent free. But when all you do is lose money, hey, anywhere's good.

Word from within MLSE is that the Argos will never financially founder again. MLSE will be obligated to see that they are propped up like a banana republic government.

No matter how pale their public perception, how limp their corporate support, how flaccid their media coverage - it already exists and will worsen once the NFL moves in - MLSE will provide financial transfusions to keep them alive.

The Argos are the ugly girl that TFC have to play wing man for in order for MLSE to score with the babe, the NFL.


----------



## Guest

flashman said:


> The Argos are the ugly girl that TFC have to play wing man for in order for MLSE to score with the babe, the NFL.


Can someone explain how MLSE plan to attain an NFL team? Expansion isn't on the cards, so what's the gameplan? Is there any reason to be cynical about MLSE wanting another potentially good addition to the portfolio?


----------



## Calvin W

5portsF4n said:


> Can someone explain how MLSE plan to attain an NFL team? Expansion isn't on the cards, so what's the gameplan? Is there any reason to be cynical about MLSE wanting another potentially good addition to the portfolio?


Their game plan is to talk up Toronto as a big league/world class city then sit back and wait for the NFL to say here, have a team....


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## flashman

Buy one.


----------



## Guest

Calvin W said:


> Their game plan is to talk up Toronto as a big league/world class city then sit back and wait for the NFL to say here, have a team....


Maybe they can get Drake to help them out with that.



> Buy one.


Who's looking to sell?


----------



## shhyvoodoo

flashman said:


> Buy one.


Who?? Do you think Buffalo gonna lose their team?? NO. Oh so it's Jacksonville right?? WRONG. The owner of the Jags also owns the Fulham Football Club, that plays in LONDON. why would he move his team to Canada if the NFL is more interested in putting teams in Los Angeles (No brainer) or London (better than Toronto). And for the last time, the NFL DOES NOT WANT TO INFRINGE ON THE CFLs TERRITORY for the simple fact that they want college players who don't make the NFL to have somewhere to play IN HOPES of making the NFL someday.


----------



## shhyvoodoo

Calvin W said:


> Their game plan is to talk up Toronto as a big league/world class city then sit back and wait for the NFL to say here, have a team....


Yeah good luck with that. First you need a new stadium, which the NFL will REQUIRE a public/private partnership to get it done. Second you are gonna need a WHOOOOOOLE lot of convincing the NFL that Toronto is a better place for a team than Los Angeles...


----------



## shhyvoodoo

5portsF4n said:


> Maybe they can get Drake to help them out with that.


Exactly lolo.. But the problem is Drake don't have the money OR influence that Leiweike has....


----------



## Calvin W

shhyvoodoo said:


> Yeah good luck with that. First you need a new stadium, which the NFL will REQUIRE a public/private partnership to get it done. Second you are gonna need a WHOOOOOOLE lot of convincing the NFL that Toronto is a better place for a team than Los Angeles...


Exactly. Sorry hard to include sarcasm when typing


----------



## shhyvoodoo

Calvin W said:


> Exactly. Sorry hard to include sarcasm when typing


Oh i got you were saying!! It's just funny how some people think it's that easy to get a NFL team.


----------



## isaidso

So back to the real world:

MLSE executive vice-president Bob Hunter, who is in charge of the BMO renovations, said Wednesday it will take about two years to finish, with the *seating expected to be ready for the Pan American Games in the summer of 2015,* and the canopy over the seats to be done by 2016. There is still some paperwork to be completed with the city, but since MLSE is footing the bill, no huge problems are expected.

Looks like the Toronto Argonauts might only have to play one more season at Skydome. If the Double Blue do end up at BMO Field in 2015 it will be a cause for celebration for football folks in this city and important for the sport in general. Many have been waiting for this for decades and this represents the first concrete step in resuscitating the sport in Toronto. Lets not forget that football traces its origins to the colleges of central Canada in Montreal (McGill), Kingston (Queen's), Sherbrooke (Bishop's), Ottawa (U of O), and yes... Toronto (University College).

Football must recover in Toronto. It would be sacrilege if it withered away completely.


----------



## isaidso

Ottawa's new CFL stadium:









Courtesy of the Mayor of Ottawa


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Hamilton February 4/2014





































One of the final east side seating slabs to be put into place


----------



## elly63

Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson confident July CFL kickoff on target
Jon Willing, Ottawa Sun February 04, 2014

With just over five months until kickoff at TD Place, there seems to be plenty of work to do at the stadium before the Ottawa RedBlacks take the field.

A recent tweet by TD Place shows the sports and entertainment facility is still very much under construction. 

But Mayor Jim Watson is satisfied the stadium will be ready on time.

"I get weekly written updates with pictures from the construction site and there's no question the cold weather had an impact on some of the outside work but the great thing is there is a lot of work that can be done inside," Watson said.

Watson was expecting to receive a briefing Tuesday on the progress at Lansdowne Park. He admitted that, because he drives past the worksite often, he had the same questions about the pace of construction.

"I have had every confidence in what I have read and have been told and I expect to hear the same thing later today that the project is on time and we're looking at mid-July for the first football game," the mayor said.

Hundreds of workers are on the job.

The city and the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group continue to discuss an unforeseen $17-million cost to repair a heavily corroded steel in the Civic Centre arena. OSEG is paying the bill but it's investigating if the costs are the company's responsibility or the city's.

The city's position is the extra costs should be borne by OSEG. Watson said it will be up to OSEG whether it wants an arbitrator to rule on the matter.

The full redevelopment, which costs between $400 million and $500 million, involves refurbishing the stadium and building retail, residential and office buildings. A new urban park will include an outdoor refrigerated rink.


----------



## elly63

Seamless steel work at new Hamilton stadium
Ron Stang Correspondent Hamilton Ont January 31, 2014

The steel work on the Pan Am Games soccer stadium in Hamilton, Ont. has been a seamless process, report project stakeholders. Walters Inc. has fabricated and delivered the project’s steel.

Erection of the giant Meccano set otherwise known as the Toronto 2015 Pan Am Games Hamilton Soccer Stadium, aka Tim Hortons Field for football, has moved rather seamlessly since local firm Walters Inc. began fabricating and delivering steel to the site last summer.

Walters is known for some very high profile and dynamic projects including expansion of Toronto Pearson International Airport, New York’s World Financial Center and Calgary’s Bow Centre skyscraper, but this is the largest stadium the firm, with three area plants, has participated in.

The undisclosed steel subcontractor price makes up part of the overall $145.7 million stadium bill, awarded by Infrastructure Ontario to Ontario Sports Solutions.

Ontario Sports Solutions is a consortium made up of Bouygues Building Canada and Kenaidan Construction. The design team was Cannon Design, FaulknerBrowns Architects and Arup Associates.

Walters manufactured all the structural steel including steel stairs for the east and west stands of the 22,500 seat fixed stadium expandable up to 40,000 seats for special events.

The stadium sits on exactly the same site as former and cherished Ivor Wynne Stadium, home of the beloved Ticats, which symbolically also was the home of another international sports event the 1930 British Empire Games.

One difference with this stadium is that the stands have been turned 90 degrees to a north-south axis – to meet international standards (and allow eye-catching views of the Niagara Escarpment) – rather than Ivor Wynne’s east-west configuration.

The foundation was being dug and poured in winter 2013 even as the last debris from Ivor Wynne’s demolition was being trucked way, some of it for fill for this new stadium.

No piling was necessary. Instead a concrete base supported the structural steel which was connected to anchor bolts. The two stands went up at the same time. For work purposes each stand was divided into three zones. There was zone one – or the straight section – as well as the south curved end (zone two) and the north curved end (zone three). These in turn were divided into individual construction blocks.

“So what we did is we started with zone one, block A which was the first four grid lines of columns, and essentially made ourselves a rectangular steel box down the entire length of the building as our base structure to build off of,” Walters’ project manager Aaron Bean said.

The crews then circled back and started on block B or the upper tier. Each side has two tiers or “bowls” for general admissions seats. But the west side is 130 ft. high compared to the east side’s 80 feet. The west side contains amenities like locker rooms, offices, 30 club suites, and the press box.

The west side has 1,800 tonnes of steel made up of 5,700 bolted or welded assembles and the east side 1,100 tonnes made up of 2,900 assemblies.

The heaviest pieces were the rakers, the main angled support beams upon which the precast bleachers sit – 23 metres long and weighing eight and a half tonnes. There are 19 per side. They have L-shaped welded stools upon which the bleachers sit.

By mid-January the precast of both lower bowls had been completed and 75 per cent of the east upper bowl was finished.

The project has to be delivered by June 30 for professional football to be played on the still hallowed grounds of the legendary Grey Cup champs.

Bean said the “biggest challenge” was maneuvering two cranes within a relatively compact area. There was Walters’ crane – for example, a 150-tonne crawler for the west side and an 80-tonne for the east – but the precast supplier, Armtec, had a 275-tonne mobile crane too.

“Whenever you get two cranes with two different trades on the same site there’s always increased safety risks and it just takes some extra coordination to work closely with them to make sure that the booms of our cranes aren’t swinging into each other,” he said.

Walters has as many as 40 staff on the project hired through Ironworkers Local 736 in Ancaster.

Some 65,000 galvanized tension-control bolts were used, these with the nib that breaks off once torqued at tensile capacity.

These bolts have two advantages. It makes inspection quicker because the disengaged nibs are evidence the bolts have been tightened to specs.

And it reduces noise for residents in the city’s densely-packed Stipley neighbourhood surrounding the stadium.

“So when you’re inside a close neighbourhood like this, working, then you’re not making a lot of unnecessary noise torqueing up all the bolts,” Bean said.


----------



## vanbasten88

isaidso said:


> Ottawa's new CFL stadium:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of the Mayor of Ottawa


Can't believe they chose RedBlacks as their name...I'm not a fan of that choice.


----------



## elly63

vanbasten88 said:


> Can't believe they chose RedBlacks as their name...I'm not a fan of that choice.


It's REDBLACKS and you're a little late to the whinefest, that was about a year ago. People seem to be taking to it now, at least you don't hear the bitching anymore, until now.

It's done, they have some players now, two good QBs and people are pretty excited for the stadium to be completed and the season to start. All's well so far, spectrum is green.


----------



## Zack Fair

What's wrong with the name? Red and black are the sport colours in Ottawa, so it's seems appropriated to me.


----------



## SimpleSimon

Zack Fair said:


> What's wrong with the name? Red and black are the sport colours in Ottawa, so it's seems appropriated to me.


I've warmed up to the name Redblacks. I detest the team's insistence that we write their name in all capital letters. That is idiotic. We might as well officially write their name as REDBLACKS*[email protected]&YAH!!!


----------



## elly63

CFL commissioner Mark Cohon thinks new Ottawa and Hamilton stadiums will be ready on time
Kirk Penton Toronto Sun Feb 6 2014

The new stadiums in Ottawa and Hamilton will absolutely, positively … well, most likely … uh, probably be ready for the CFL season.

It might also depend on what your definition of “on time” is.

Commissioner Mark Cohon toured Ottawa’s TD Place on Thursday morning and said he’s been given assurances the stadium will be good to go.

“From what they’re telling me, absolutely,” Cohon said.

Now, that’s how the folks in Winnipeg got in trouble with Investors Group Field. The Bombers kept saying the construction company was telling them the place would be ready, but it ended up opening a year late.

In other words, you never really know.

Cohon added the RedBlacks are going to launch their home schedule “towards the end of July,” which means they’ll likely have to play their first few games on the road.

The commish said Hamilton’s Tim Hortons Field is also on time, but he pointed out they’re doing double shifts in an effort to get it completed.

It’s likely the Tabbies will start the season on the road, too.

Asked if he was nervous about the stadiums being late, Cohon answered the question with a question.

Gulp.

“Am I nervous? No, I’m excited,” he said.

“Like anything, you want your house to be done on time. But I will tell you this, having been through many of these projects before, and even personally been through rebuilding my own house. It looks like a mess until the day you move in, so you can’t judge it by walking around it now.

“You have to trust, and especially in this market here. Three of the partners are major developers. They’ve been through these type of projects before, and I trust in their judgment.”

Cohon didn’t say the CFL is looking at backup plans, but he didn’t deny it, either.

“We always look at backup plans,” he said, “but we want to keep the hammer on the construction guys, so we’re not going to say we have some other plans, because the other plans I don’t like — I definitely don’t like.

“These guys are driving forward. They have commitments to sponsors. They have commitments to thousands and thousands of fans. They have a commitment to their players. We have commitments to our TV partner. We gotta push to get this done, and that’s what they’re doing.”

*THIS AND THAT*

Cohon spoke for nearly 15 minutes on Thursday and covered a variety of topics. Here are the other highlights:

- The commish said he, Argos owner David Braley and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment are having “positive” talks about the future of the Boatmen. Braley is looking to sell the team, and they’ll need a new home when their Rogers Centre lease expires in 2017.

“What we ultimately think is the best solution is a downtown, intimate stadium,” Cohon said.

“So the opportunity with MLSE and the city of Toronto to renovate BMO Field, make it work for both soccer and for football, is the right thing to do.”

- Negotiations on a new collective-bargaining agreement with the CFL Players’ Association will begin in the next month, according to Cohon.

The current deals expires the day before training camps open in early June.

“I’m confident, based upon our relationship, based upon the last negotiation we had, we’ll get a deal done in time for the season,” Cohon said.

- Cohon wouldn’t confirm when Ottawa will get a Grey Cup, but he said they’ll need a few years to get their bearings first.

“You need to plan at least two years out for your Grey Cup,” he said. “These guys have a lot on their plate before they can think about Grey Cup.”

It looks like it will be Winnipeg in 2015 and Ottawa in 2016.

- All signs indicate every team stayed under the salary cap in 2013.

“I’m confident there will be no fines,” Cohon said.


----------



## isaidso

Zack Fair said:


> What's wrong with the name? Red and black are the sport colours in Ottawa, so it's seems appropriated to me.


And in 2-3 years the name will be so entrenched that few will think anything of it. Besides, this name is 10X better than 'Renegades'. That sounded more like some bush league team from Vegas rather than a team in our nation's capital.


----------



## Scba

They gotta drop the whole REDBLACKS thing though, the shouting doesn't make sense.


----------



## isaidso

SimpleSimon said:


> I've warmed up to the name Redblacks. I detest the team's insistence that we write their name in all capital letters. That is idiotic.


Is it really only to be written in capitals? Did they miss that day in Grade 5 English class? It's not an acronym for anything. :nuts:


----------



## elly63

Tks to Waldorfian at ticats.ca









The endzone light standards have been installed. One has been installed at each corner of the endzones at both ends of the stadium.









Above is the Melrose side of the west grandstand. You can see the progress in closing it in. The 2nd floor Ticat offices are all framed up and GlasRoc sheathing installed. I'm assuming those are window openings.

The cams are great for the big picture, but you can't see any details or the endzone work along Beechwood or the work on the Melrose side. When I walk along that side, I'm amazed at the amount of work going on.


----------



## elly63

The new Lansdowne
February 10/2014

Foundations for the new Art Screen in the urban park are underway









Work continues on the stadium field and South Stands









Work continues at the North Stands (lights installed)









Installing horizontal beams on the Veil









Work continues on the Veil









New windows and siding installed on the back of the South Stands


----------



## will101

elly63 said:


> Tim Hortons Field Hamilton March 6/2014


Is this going to be finished in three months?


----------



## elly63

will101 said:


> Is this going to be finished in three months?


That is the question. The last news was a two week delay and that they were adding crews and double shifting to catch up. We have no idea if they have caught up or are further behind.

The deadline for IO to have it completed is June 30 with the first game scheduled for July 26. It's a tight schedule.


----------



## elly63

Tks to Frankie at skyscraperpage for headsup

BMO Field Public Meeting Document March 5, 2014


----------



## elly63

Not much posted on the topic of turf yet, but it's likely the Argos/TFC will play on this

Desso GrassMaster hybrid grass at Wembley Stadium


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

*THF Update* thanks to RawMeat1000 at Ticats.ca forums


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

I was down at *Tim Hortons Field* myself this afternoon - I was driving home from the in-laws in London and decided to pull into Hamilton and see how things were going first hand. 

First impression was this feels a lot bigger than BMO Field

I took one lap of the site - there's about 25 pictures in all.

Started at the southeast corner and walked counter clockwise.

Enjoy


----------



## Jim856796

BMO Field is already being seen as outdated despite only seven years of existence. Because of this, it's going to be transformed into a more "European/International"-style stadium, with a capacity that is probably higher than that of most soccer-specific stadiums in the US and Canada. Seeing as how BMO Field needed the upgrades for it to stay competitive, I was thinking, "Let's grow this beard."


----------



## isaidso

Jim856796 said:


> BMO Field is already being seen as outdated despite only seven years of existence. Because of this, it's going to be *transformed into a more "European/International"-style stadium,* with a capacity that is probably higher than that of most soccer-specific stadiums in the US and Canada.


That sucks. This should be built to reflect our own north American culture not someone else's. This isn't being built for Europeans.


----------



## master_klon

isaidso said:


> That sucks. This should be built to reflect our own north American culture not someone else's. This isn't being built for Europeans.


Four covered stands in a rectangular shape is widely regarded as "the European style". Of course there isn't just the one style in Europe and just because the BMO Field upgrade fits the description it does not mean that it still can't reflect the culture of Canada.

Why are you so sensitive about Europe anyway? What makes a stadium reflect American culture?


----------



## isaidso

master_klon said:


> Four covered stands in a rectangular shape is widely regarded as "the European style". Of course there isn't just the one style in Europe and just because the BMO Field upgrade fits the description it does not mean that it still can't reflect the culture of Canada.
> 
> Why are you so sensitive about Europe anyway? What makes a stadium reflect American culture?


Yes, it's regarded as 'European style' even if that's not accurate. Much like you're assuming the sports on this continent to be American culture... even though that's not accurate either. 

It's important that large symbolic buildings like court houses, government buildings, stadia, etc. reflect the culture. In Canada and the US we developed architecture that not only speaks to our culture, but we expect certain buildings to look a certain way. It's what makes our cities look Canadian or American instead of German or Brazilian. 

Sensitive about Europe? There's been a very irritating trend (especially amongst soccer folks in north America) to label everything that's sophisticated and superior 'European' and they try to emulate Europe at every opportunity. Calling the soccer club 'FC', calling soccer 'football, using the word 'European' as a synonym for 'good/superior', and now trying to make the stadium look like something you'd find in France or England.

It all gets a little much and it's a smack in the face to the domestic culture. I might add that a lot of that crowd has utter disdain for anything north American... which also gets rather irritating after a while.


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> Yes, it's regarded as 'European style' even if that's not accurate. Much like you're assuming the sports on this continent to be American culture... even though that's not accurate either.
> 
> It's important that large symbolic buildings like court houses, government buildings, stadia, etc. reflect the culture. In Canada and the US we developed architecture that not only speaks to our culture, but we expect certain buildings to look a certain way. It's what makes our cities look Canadian or American instead of German or Brazilian.
> 
> Sensitive about Europe? There's been a very irritating trend (especially amongst soccer folks in north America) to label everything that's sophisticated and superior 'European' and they try to emulate Europe at every opportunity. Calling the soccer club 'FC', calling soccer 'football, using the word 'European' as a synonym for 'good/superior', and now trying to make the stadium look like something you'd find in France or England.
> 
> It all gets a little much and it's a smack in the face to the domestic culture. I might add that a lot of that crowd has utter disdain for anything north American... which also gets rather irritating after a while.


Not to get off topic but since when do large symbolic building have to reflect our culture. BS. If anything they should reflect whatever they are.


----------



## elly63

Jim856796 said:


> it's going to be transformed into a more "European/International"-style stadium, with a capacity that is probably higher than that of most soccer-specific stadiums in the US and Canada


----------



## Guest

BMO Field was already kind of English anyway, just minus the roof. So I wouldn't say its being transformed into some more European, since it was piratically four free-standing, basic stands, which is quintessentially English.


----------



## flashman

isaidso said:


> That sucks. This should be built to reflect our own north American culture not someone else's. This isn't being built for Europeans.


It certainly reflects what's wanted by the current patrons of BMO Field. The appetite for soccer in Toronto is not diminishing. 

Perhaps you'd care to expound your societal judgement across the entire spectrum of soccer-specific stadiums that have been, or are being, built in recent years in North America for MLS. There's lots to work with - Dallas, Columbus, LA, Portland, New York( a second coming), Philadelphia, Montreal, Denver, Salt Lake City, San Jose, Orlando and, soon, Miami. There's hard work going on in Minneapolis to create another.

If we drop down a level, to NASL, there's a host of others in many other cities to sneer at - Indianapolis, San Antonio, Charleston, Sacramento and so on. It seems to me that society is receiving what it wants.


----------



## Zack Fair

flashman said:


> It certainly reflects what's wanted by the current patrons of BMO Field. The appetite for soccer in Toronto is not diminishing.


I don't have data for the average TV audience, but if we take a look at the average attendance, seems quite the opposite.




> Year - Reg. Season
> 2007 - 20,134
> 2008 - 20,108
> 2009 - 20,344
> 2010 - 20,453
> 2011 - 20,267
> 2012 - 18,681
> 2013 - 18,131


from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC#Average_attendance


BTW, we can all agree the stadium's design is really bland.


----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> Not to get off topic but since when do large symbolic building have to reflect our culture.


They don't have to, but since the beginning of time significant institutional buildings have always reflected or at least given nods to the greater culture. Societies reflect their culture through their buildings.


----------



## isaidso

flashman said:


> It certainly reflects what's wanted by the current patrons of BMO Field. The appetite for soccer in Toronto is not diminishing.


Agree, but it's now also going to be a football stadium. It won't look like one though.



5portsF4n said:


> BMO Field was already kind of English anyway, just minus the roof. So I wouldn't say its being transformed into some more European, since it was piratically four free-standing, basic stands, which is quintessentially English.


It is keeping with it's original aesthetic, but it's still a little disappointing from a football point of view. On a positive note, the football team will now have a football specific stadium. They haven't had that since the 1960s.


----------



## flashman

Zack Fair said:


> I don't have data for the average TV audience, but if we take a look at the average attendance, seems quite the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_FC#Average_attendance
> 
> 
> BTW, we can all agree the stadium's design is really bland.


It's actually pretty good attendance given the club's overall lack of performance. Never made the playoffs in a league laden with parity and opportunity to improve quickly. 

Not only is the design bland, but these preliminary sketches - and they are not formal plans - show lower-lying roof structures at each end, sitting right over where each CFL end zone would be. Might be a squeeze to get football goal posts under them.

The current west side stands are decent enough structures and it looks like the re-built east side will create a near-mirror set of stands and suites, plus CFL dressing rooms, which is a decent idea. 

But having such open roof structures at the ends allows a lot of wind to move about. And believe me, when the prevailing winds shift from the west and blow upfield from the lake on the south, it's like a wind tunnel in there already. Not a good thing for balls in the air.


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> They don't have to, but since the beginning of time significant institutional buildings have always reflected or at least given nods to the greater culture. Societies reflect their culture through their buildings.


Again not to get off topic but show me one significant institutional building that reflects Canada? Anything you put up can and would work in the USA, Europe or many other countries around the World.


----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> Again not to get off topic but show me one significant institutional building that reflects Canada?


If it's not obvious to you already, posting photos of them all won't change a thing. I don't have the time or inclination to school you either.


----------



## c-way-dude

Zack Fair said:


> If BMO will be the new Argos' home, why not painting their logo? Then, *I don't want to see* a TFC logo as well.


What about the ads painted on the field for CFL games?


----------



## carnifex2005

c-way-dude said:


> What about the ads painted on the field for CFL games?


That won't be happening. The BC Lions also can't put ads or logos on the field because of the Whitecaps.


----------



## elly63

c-way-dude said:


> What about the ads painted on the field for CFL games?


Tim Lieweke announces on TSN Friday (at 7:35) that the Argo endzones at BMO will be artificial turf. They will have their painted logos there as they will be covered by the retractable stands that will have been extended for the soccer crowd. As for ads painted on the field, I for one think they are an eyesore (ie Montreal) and shouldn't be allowed. LED advertising on the sidelines is very suitable for sponsors to get their message out.

Also the removal of the football lines will be a real concern, to the soccer fans, and also the groundkeepers who will have to repair the turf after the removal process. Less paint less problems.


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Hamilton March 23/2014


----------



## flashman

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...nto-chief-know-delivered-Beckham-America.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Defoe-doesnt-matter-football-basketball.html

This is where the Argos lose out massively to soccer when it comes to determining stadium issues. The CFL doesn't remotely have the ability to generate these sort of international headlines. Hell, the Argos struggle to generate them locally outside of media organs with an 'official'(paid for) relationship, i.e., TSN or The Sun.

CFL advocates may not want to read them, but a lot of people who spend money in influential ways, be it public or private sector, already have. The presence of Jermaine Defoe and Michael Bradley is big news. You can't buy this kind of publicity, only earn it. And it's better than commercial advertising. It's an editorially-based endorsement. 

If you're a city councillor and you see this kind of publicity already being generated, you know it's going to be a boon for tourism.


----------



## isaidso

^^ People who love a sport or their team don't care one iota about what the Toronto media think. They care even less what the British media think. The Argonauts are the oldest professional football team in the world and deserve better treatment than secondary status to an upstart team, in an upstart league, in a foreign sport. 

Football is ours. If Toronto and Canada won't stick up for it, no one will. City Councillors should be at the forefront of supporting our culture rather than seeking headlines in/or the approval of a foreign country. Can it get any more lame than that? I don't think it can.



carnifex2005 said:


> That won't be happening. The BC Lions also can't put ads or logos on the field because of the Whitecaps.


I hate those on field corporate logos any way. I'm glad they're gone. I guess the Argonauts won't get their logo and centre field, but as long as the end zones look good I'll be happy.


----------



## flashman

isaidso said:


> ^^ People who love a sport or their team don't care one iota about what the Toronto media think. They care even less what the British media think. The Argonauts are the oldest professional football team in the world and deserve better treatment than secondary status to an upstart team, in an upstart league, in a foreign sport.
> 
> *Football is ours*. If Toronto and Canada won't stick up for it, no one will. City Councillors should be at the forefront of supporting *our culture *rather than seeking headlines in/or the approval of a foreign country. Can it get any more lame than that? I don't think it can.


Thank you, Governor Wallace. Your position is abundantly clear regarding the GOOD people of Toronto.

I know that many councillors are elected because they reflect the culture of the people THEY represent. Mine certainly reflects our community's wishes and attitudes.

As for caring what the Toronto media think. Please. Every media entity in this city has its own agenda, based on what it deems to be best BUSINESS practice. It's not like it's a think tank that produces a consensus. There's a lot of diversity in their various opinions.

What the British media think is of great interest to people who have a role to play in promoting this city, or its tourism infrastructure.


----------



## isaidso

Please conduct yourselves in a civil, respectful manner. Posts that run afoul of SSC rules and regulations will be deleted. Thank you.


----------



## isaidso

flashman said:


> Thank you, Governor Wallace. Your position is abundantly clear regarding the GOOD people of Toronto.
> 
> I know that many councillors are elected because they reflect the culture of the people THEY represent. Mine certainly reflects our community's wishes and attitudes.
> 
> As for caring what the Toronto media think. Please. Every media entity in this city *has its own agenda,* based on what it deems to be best BUSINESS practice. It's not like it's a think tank that produces a consensus. There's a lot of diversity in their various opinions.


Thank you, Uncle Tom. Your position is abundantly clear regarding the TREND SETTING people of Toronto.

Business and government don't operate in a vacuum. Corporate Canada too often ONLY cares about the bottom line and it's a bit naive to believe that city councillors reflect the wishes of the people. City councillors reflect the wishes of SOME of their constituents. The reality is that there's a constant dialogue between the concerns of the people and industry/government. They have no obligation to listen, but it's certainly how it's always worked. 



flashman said:


> What the British media think is of great interest to people who have a role to play in promoting this city, or its tourism infrastructure.


Promoting Toronto around the world is important, but these people shouldn't fool themselves into thinking they're city builders when what they're accomplishing is at the expense of Toronto's home grown culture. Promoting an imported culture like soccer and bringing in one of its stars is a worthwhile pursuit, but you don't do it by knocking down part of the existing culture..... something that took 150 years to build I might add.

Gaining someone's attention only because we're just like them? That says a lot about us if that's the only way it can be accomplished.


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> Please conduct yourselves in a civil, respectful manner. Posts that run afoul of SSC rules and regulations will be deleted. Thank you.


just saying....

Step back and read what is written....


----------



## isaidso

I did... and that goes both ways.


----------



## Guest

Of course my post was deleted. 

To sum up, if anything happens to TFCs pitch, kick the Argos out. One thing to play second fiddle to Seahawks and Pats, but not to a CFL team in a stadium built for soccer in the first place.


----------



## flashman

isaidso said:


> Business and government don't operate in a vacuum. Corporate Canada too often ONLY cares about the bottom line and it's a bit naive to believe that city councillors reflect the wishes of the people. City councillors reflect the wishes of SOME of their constituents. The reality is that there's a constant dialogue between the concerns of the people and industry/government. They have no obligation to listen, but it's certainly how it's always worked.
> 
> 
> 
> Promoting Toronto around the world is important, but these people shouldn't fool themselves into thinking they're city builders when what they're accomplishing is at the expense of Toronto's home grown culture. *Promoting an imported culture like soccer and bringing in one of its stars is a worthwhile pursuit, but you don't do it by knocking down part of the existing culture..... something that took 150 years to build I might add.*
> Gaining someone's attention only because we're just like them? That says a lot about us if that's the only way it can be accomplished.


Organized soccer has been played in Canada since the mid-1800s. It is very much a part of this country's sporting culture, just as its surging popularity is very much a reflection of where this country's future sporting culture is headed and truly the impetus for the expansion of BMO Field. 

The arrival here of current stars like Jermaine Defoe, Michael Bradley or Julio Cesar isn't something new. It's been going on in this city for decades with players the likes of Sir Stanley Matthews, Eusebio, Roberto Bettega and many others. Their playing time in this city didn't set off the sort of alarmist bells you are ringing.

No one in Toronto is actively working to knock down the Argos or the CFL. Most soccer fans would be fine to let the Argos go their merry way if it wasn't an intrusion on their enjoyment of soccer.

The Argos decline in popularity is merely a reflection of overall interest in the CFL in this city. It's not a constitutional requirement to have to follow it. It's a tier-two sport, like the AHL Toronto Marlies are vis-à-vis the Leafs. But football's not about to go away, even if the Argos have to play second fiddle at BMO Field and their fans have to sit in red seats(which they will, btw).

The good news is that MLSE will probably work to keep the Argos financially propped up in order to facilitate the purchase and transfer of a National Football League franchise to Toronto. There'll be two gridiron football teams in Toronto. Cheer yourself hoarse.


----------



## shhyvoodoo

flashman said:


> Organized soccer has been played in Canada since the mid-1800s. It is very much a part of this country's sporting culture, just as its surging popularity is very much a reflection of where this country's future sporting culture is headed and truly the impetus for the expansion of BMO Field. The arrival here of current stars like Jermaine Defoe, Michael Bradley or Julio Cesar isn't something new. It's been going on in this city for decades with players the likes of Sir Stanley Matthews, Eusebio, Roberto Bettega and many others. Their playing time in this city didn't set off the sort of alarmist bells you are ringing. No one in Toronto is actively working to knock down the Argos or the CFL. Most soccer fans would be fine to let the Argos go their merry way if it wasn't an intrusion on their enjoyment of soccer. The Argos decline in popularity is merely a reflection of overall interest in the CFL in this city. It's not a constitutional requirement to have to follow it. It's a tier-two sport, like the AHL Toronto Marlies are vis-à-vis the Leafs. But football's not about to go away, even if the Argos have to play second fiddle at BMO Field and their fans have to sit in red seats(which they will, btw). The good news is that MLSE will probably work to keep the Argos financially propped up in order to facilitate the purchase and transfer of a National Football League franchise to Toronto. There'll be two gridiron football teams in Toronto. Cheer yourself hoarse.


You are a lost cause dude.. Really you are. For the last time, THE NFL IS NOT COMING TO CANADA!!! There is a REASON they are coming to Toronto THIS season... Get it got it GOOD.


----------



## will101

shhyvoodoo said:


> You are a lost cause dude.. Really you are. For the last time, THE NFL IS NOT COMING TO CANADA!!! There is a REASON they are coming to Toronto THIS season... Get it got it GOOD.


Quit arguing with the guy. He doesn't, and won't, get it. Just move on.


----------



## Cjones2451

elly63 said:


> Tim Lieweke announces on TSN Friday (at 7:35) that the Argo endzones at BMO will be artificial turf. They will have their painted logos there as they will be covered by the retractable stands that will have been extended for the soccer crowd. As for ads painted on the field, I for one think they are an eyesore (ie Montreal) and shouldn't be allowed. LED advertising on the sidelines is very suitable for sponsors to get their message out.
> 
> Also the removal of the football lines will be a real concern, to the soccer fans, and also the groundkeepers who will have to repair the turf after the removal process. Less paint less problems.


That's disappointing, I hope it does not look as bad as it Moncton does. I wonder how a CFL player chooses footwear for that?


----------



## elly63

5portsF4n said:


> One thing to play second fiddle to Seahawks and Pats, but not to a CFL team in a stadium built for soccer in the first place.


Sorry pally but not only is that revisionism but also not true. Read your history! And if you care to debate it, be warned that just recently a very big player just made a public pronouncement that renders your comment...moot.


----------



## elly63

Cjones2451 said:


> I wonder how a CFL player chooses footwear for that?


That's a good question, but remember the main field will also have a helluva lot of plastic sticking one inch above the ground.


----------



## Zack Fair

It's seems everybody are paying extra attention toward soccer fans and their needs, and not really much to football fans. It's like the Argos and their fans are going to be tenant here, like at the Skydome. So sad.


----------



## elly63

Well the one positive is, that the situation can't be worse than what they were facing. The worst case scenario is at least it has bought them some time to reverse their fortunes.


----------



## carnifex2005

An alledged leak of Canada's venues for the 2026 World Cup bid...

http://imgur.com/a/5ZfCR


----------



## flashman

Very nice, Carnifex. Is that a product of Carnifex Studios? Best get your visor down. That first stadium listed will bring you dog's abuse. I wonder whether Saputo Field in Montreal would also get a similar upgrade to BMO Field and be a 12th venue. 

Through all the prior debates about this World Cup bid, the one question I never see resolved is: Where does the CFL play in the midst of this World Cup? They have teams in many of these stadiums that play during the normal World Cup period of June-July.

Do they start a bit earlier that year and schedule a break? Might the league agree to play a slightly shorter season in return for financial compensation? 

It's a dilemma because FIFA normally want full control of each WC stadium well in advance of the event.

Although it looks like a lot of government spending, most of these venues are already in place and just needing upgrading. And they'll be well used after the event, making it a worthwhile legacy. It would certainly leave the CFL in great shape facility-wise and create some possibilities for further pro soccer development in Canada.


----------



## carnifex2005

I found it on Reddit and yeah, I know that the first one is simply a render of the proposed Farmer's Field in Los Angeles. That's the biggest reason why I used the word "alleged". I'm guessing that will be a big issue for them but they could start in the spring with not much of a problem for one year (Generally the season starts in mid to late June). It would have to be a two month break at least I'm guessing.


----------



## elly63

It looks more like the "proposal" is a bogus concoction of a fan. 

Yes, that's LA's Farmer's Field for a Toronto stadium, the first Halifax stadium is Moncton, and I've seen the second Calgary stadium before 2011. Found it

Does anybody actually think the CSA would mention a future Toronto NFL stadium in their WC document?

I could be wrong but the second Halifax? stadium looks suspiciously like an earlier render of TEmpire in Vancouver. I realize the two below are not the same.



















Bogus plan, my friends, too early for April Fools and not too well crafted either.


----------



## elly63

flashman said:


> Although it looks like a lot of government spending, most of these venues are already in place and just needing upgrading. And they'll be well used after the event, making it a worthwhile legacy. It would certainly leave the CFL in great shape facility-wise and create some possibilities for further pro soccer development in Canada.


Amen


----------



## elly63

Builder: six-week stadium delay "worst case scenario"
Drew Edwards scratchingpost.thespec.com 03/25/2014

The Spec's Matt Van Dongen is at the Pan Am subcommittee meeting at city hall this morning where representatives from the ONSS (the builders) and Infrastructure Ontario gave an update on the status of the stadium. 

Here are a few of Matt's tweets from @Mattatthespec:

- Stadium builder rep Greg Stack says *six week delay "worst case scenario," still aiming to be done in time for Tiger-Cats first home game*
- Turning stadium over in stages to city, Ticats is one option to speed things up, allow team to prepare
- Technically possible to hold game before stadium is 100% finished, but fire dept, bld dept would have to sign off 
- Not a lot of questions thrown at IO, stadium builders. they say a better completion update will come in mid-late April.

There's also a story in today's Guelph Mercury which says the Ticats haven't contacted the University of Guelph about playing games at Alumni Stadium if Tim Hortons Field isn't completed on time. 

So, as I suggested last week, the six-week delay is a worst case scenario and the builder and the Ticats are still hoping the stadium will be ready for the home opener on July 26. As for the double-secret Plan B, I believe the most likely scenario sees the Cats play a game or two at McMaster if the stadium isn't ready.


----------



## elly63

Ralph Wilson just died, interesting times ahead.


----------



## Zack Fair

I would hate to steal the Bills from Buffalo.


----------



## Guest

Zack Fair said:


> I would hate to steal the Bills from Buffalo.


The idea of relocating a team to London might be overlooked in favor of starting a new team. If that's the case, then Toronto would be a prime candidate in any expansion of the NFL from 2 or 4 teams. The issue of proximity would remain though. Buffalo, while a good NFL market, has got nothing on some of the potential candidates. 

Even then, it would be interesting to see how receptive the city is to building a billion dollar plus stadium, which would need to happen. Perhaps the best case scenario might be to host more games at Rogers C every year.


----------



## elly63

Still hope for a bare-bones stadium opening on time
Matthew Van Dongen thespec.com March 25, 2014

Builders aim to open Hamilton's new stadium in time for the Tiger-Cats' first home game — with or without working beer taps.

Council received a letter last week from Ontario Sports Solutions, the consortium building the stadium, warning of construction delays of up to six weeks due to the December ice storm, ongoing frigid weather and the loss of a major masonry subcontractor to bankruptcy.

Site supervisor Garreth Barkey told a city subcommittee Tuesday the consortium is still aiming to have the $145-million stadium finished before the Ticats' scheduled season opener July 26.

But the construction team is also in talks with the city's fire and building departments about opening the stadium before all construction is finished. This would essentially involve "cordoning off" unfinished areas that aren't needed to play football.

"It's something we're looking at," Barkey said, adding any work affecting public safety would need to be done.

City public works head Gerry Davis said interior office space and even concession stands, for example, wouldn't necessarily need to be done come game day.

"You could bring in temporary food stands for hotdogs, or if the draft (beer) lines were not working, maybe you serve (out of) cans," he said.

Davis emphasized fire and building officials would have to be satisfied the building is safe for public use. "There could be no major deficiencies," he said.

Ticats president Glenn Gibson said though the team has a confidential backup plan in case of a six-week delay, he still expects the stadium will be done before July 26.

Gibson noted the builder is working to give the Ticats early access to allow the team to fix up change rooms and install signs, a scoreboard and furniture before game day.

"We're going to be working very closely with them," he said. "If we can reclaim even two weeks (of the projected delay) we'll be playing there on the 26th."

Three dedicated Cats fans who showed up at the committee meeting Tuesday said they were heartened by the commitment from the builders and team.

"We wanted to hear directly from (the builders) how bad it actually is," said Claudio Raposo, who has been photographing the construction as it progresses. "I'm glad six weeks is a worst-case scenario … It sounds like they can still get it done in time."

More than 280 workers are now routinely on site daily, said Barkey, and double shifts and six-day work weeks are now the norm as the contractor plays catch-up.

The builder refused to guess at a revised completion date Tuesday, but promised a new estimate by mid- to late April.


----------



## isaidso

*The Montreal Baseball Project* 


Site du Stade du Bassin Peel by etiennecoutu, on Flickr


Vue Stade du Bassin Peel by etiennecoutu, on Flickr


Implantation du Stade du Bassin Peel by etiennecoutu, on Flickr


Quartier Bonaventure: faire renaître Goose Village by etiennecoutu, on Flickr


----------



## isaidso

> *WestJet to sponsor Montreal Baseball Project*
> Posted on 3/13/2014 4:54:00 PM by Richard Deschamps
> 
> WestJet is announcing it's reached a one-year deal with the group that's working to bring a major league team back to Montreal.
> 
> The discount airline's public relations department says it will be sponsoring the upcoming two-game pre-season series between the Toronto Blue Jays and the New York Mets at Olympic Stadium on March 28 and 29, and the gala event to mark the 20th anniversary of the 1994 Expos team which had the best record in baseball before a player's strike wiped out the end of the season.
> 
> The Montreal Baseball Project is led by Warren Cromartie, an Expos outfielder during the team's glory years in the late 1970s and early 1980s.


http://www.cjad.com/cjad-news/2014/03/13/westjet-to-sponsor-montreal-baseball-project :dance:


----------



## Sportsfan

carnifex2005 said:


> An alledged leak of Canada's venues for the 2026 World Cup bid...
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/5ZfCR



You refer to this as an "alleged leak" but that proposed venue plan is very predictable. The only thing I would mention is that even though it doesn't have or need a large enough (World Cup minimum-size) rectangular stadium, I'm sure Quebec City would be a little upset at being overlooked in favour of Halifax just for reasons of geographical spread.

Also, for the most part, the whole concept entirely depends on Toronto scoring an NFL Franchise to warrant building a 75-80,000 seat rectangular stadium in a region (Golden Horseshoe) that already has a plethora of sports facilities.

Those leading the bid must ask themselves the following important questions:

1. Is Toronto likely to be awarded an NFL franchise when a market like Los Angeles is crying out for a team and could logistically host two?

2. Could Toronto seriously support both an NFL team as well as the CFL's highly popular Argonauts during a similar time period each year? 

3. If Toronto was to somehow secure a franchise, with only 8-10 NFL home game opportunities per year, wouldn't the venue have to steal away events (Argonauts, Soccer Internationals, concerts, conventions, trade fairs, monster trucks) that usually occur at Rogers Centre and BMO Field to justify a likely $1billion+ price tag for such a venue? 

4. With FIFA wanting a lasting soccer legacy from it's hosts, would they look kindly on a bid that has an NFL legacy instead?

Don't get me wrong, I think a World Cup hosted by Canada would be great. It's just that you need an 80,000+ venue for a World Cup Final and the only option on the table isn't entirely viable.


----------



## isaidso

Sportsfan said:


> The only thing I would mention is that even though it doesn't have or need a large enough (World Cup minimum-size) rectangular stadium, *I'm sure Quebec City would be a little upset at being overlooked in favour of Halifax just for reasons of geographical spread.*


I'm sure it would, but having the WC represented in all of Canada's regions likely trumps that.


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## Sportsfan

isaidso said:


> I'm sure it would, but having the WC represented in all of Canada's regions likely trumps that.


I understand what you're saying, but if we follow that train of thought, why no talk of games being held in Whitehorse or Yellowknife or Iqaluit to represent Northern Canada? I know that's comparing apples with oranges, but from a logistical standpoint (population base, proximity to other venues), Quebec City is the better choice. Or to compromise, use both and drop Hamilton - Does Ontario really need 3 venues?


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## flashman

Sportsfan said:


> You refer to this as an "alleged leak" but that proposed venue plan is very predictable. The only thing I would mention is that even though it doesn't have or need a large enough (World Cup minimum-size) rectangular stadium, I'm sure Quebec City would be a little upset at being overlooked in favour of Halifax just for reasons of geographical spread.
> 
> Also, for the most part, the whole concept entirely depends on Toronto scoring an NFL Franchise to warrant building a 75-80,000 seat rectangular stadium in a region (Golden Horseshoe) that already has a plethora of sports facilities.
> 
> Those leading the bid must ask themselves the following important questions:
> 
> 1. Is Toronto likely to be awarded an NFL franchise when a market like Los Angeles is crying out for a team and could logistically host two?
> 
> 2. Could Toronto seriously support both an NFL team as well as the CFL's highly popular Argonauts during a similar time period each year?
> 
> 3. If Toronto was to somehow secure a franchise, with only 8-10 NFL home game opportunities per year, wouldn't the venue have to steal away events (Argonauts, Soccer Internationals, concerts, conventions, trade fairs, monster trucks) that usually occur at Rogers Centre and BMO Field to justify a likely $1billion+ price tag for such a venue?
> 
> 4. With FIFA wanting a lasting soccer legacy from it's hosts, would they look kindly on a bid that has an NFL legacy instead?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think a World Cup hosted by Canada would be great. It's just that you need an 80,000+ venue for a World Cup Final and the only option on the table isn't entirely viable.


1. Raiders are a candidate to move to LA, as are the Rams. Chargers also a possibility. How Toronto acquires a franchise is still to be determined. If they were to receive an expansion team, it could set up a fierce and quite wonderful rivalry with Buffalo, assuming it didn't seriously impair the Bills health by drawing away the sizable contingent of NFL fans that live in southern Ontario and represent an important percentage of Bills attendance.

Don't overlook the NFL acknowledging MLSE's background role in helping to facilitate the London stadium situation. Tim Leiweke now heads up MLSE, but prior to that was a lead player for AEG in the Tottenham Hotspur bid for the Olympic stadium site. Spurs current stadium project is being re-configured to accommodate a NFL team.

2. The Argos would be financially supported by MLSE as a loss leader, in much the same way they work with their American Hockey League farm team, the Marlies, playing next door to BMO Field in Ricoh Coliseum. They won't make much money, but the profits from a NFL franchise would far outweigh those costs. There may be unforeseen value in operating both in that Argos' coaches and players could enjoy accelerated development training in proximity to NFL counterparts. 

3. BMO Field doesn't host much now other than soccer and the odd rugby match. Other than the CFL games, that wouldn't change. The Rogers Centre is opting to install a grass playing surface by 2017. For more than six months, they'll forego many of the peripheral events now hosted in order to maximize the appeal of their prime tenant, the Blue Jays. They'd still have winter events if they chose to book them. But if a new stadium is built, likely by MLSE, then Rogers will still get their share since they half own MLSE.

Such a facility would create it's own itinerary. It would certainly be a spectacular site for the CFL Grey Cup and the Maple Leafs outdoor hockey games. It's been speculated(CBS sports) that the NFL considers Toronto a potential Super Bowl site with a suitable stadium. It would open up greater possibilities for high-profile soccer friendlies each summer. There's been good support for visits of popular clubs like Real Madrid, Liverpool or Celtic to the dome or BMO Field. 

4. There's a lot of soccer possibilities created by such a stadium. TFC's home openers or playoff games could be shifted there, much like Montreal Impact or Alouettes shift their high-profile soccer and football games to the Olympic stadium. You'd have to assume it will have a convertible roof, so it would certainly be an appealing venue for MLS to stage it's final in from time to time.

It would also give Canada's national soccer teams the financial resource to bring in top-level international opposition for friendlies as well as a great venue for WC qualifiers. With the right pricing for tickets - which BMO's tight capacity inhibits - they'll draw very well.

And if it becomes a prime venue for a World Cup in a hugely appealing and diverse marketplace, how can FIFA do anything but smile on it's development?


----------



## flashman

Sportsfan said:


> I understand what you're saying, but if we follow that train of thought, why no talk of games being held in Whitehorse or Yellowknife or Iqaluit to represent Northern Canada? I know that's comparing apples with oranges, but from a logistical standpoint (population base, proximity to other venues), Quebec City is the better choice. Or to compromise, use both and drop Hamilton - Does Ontario really need 3 venues?


Quebec City is a smooth two-hour drive down AutoRoute Vingt from Montreal. If I'm the Canadian Soccer Association people, I'd rather see any WC spending directed at both the Olympic stadium and Saputo Field in Montreal, which are already involved in the sport. 

Quebec City might be a charming place, but it's economy is largely based on government, education and tourism. It struggled, then failed, to adequately support a National Hockey League team. Now it's optimistically raising a new barn in hopes of re-acquiring a franchise. That won't leave much for any other sport and soccer has hardly been at the forefront there. Football has a better profile but the CFL hasn't gone there.


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## flashman

Buffalo's media are understandably treating Ralph Wilson's passing with the respect it deserves and it's hard not to be moved by the tearful tributes coming from great players like Steve Tasker and Thurman Thomas.

The Toronto Star's sports columnist Cathal Kelly offers up a more bloodless view:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/footb...ver_so_slightly_for_nfl_in_toronto_kelly.html


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## c-way-dude

Could Olympic Stadium be expanded to host the World Cup final? The stadium has had crowds of 68k for Grey Cups with temporary seating installed in the open space behind the one endzone. If the upper and lower decks were extended to encircle the field, and the field was lowered to allow more seats along the sidelines, would it be possible to attain enough capacity to host a World Cup final?
I would imagine that Rogers Centre could also be used to host a few games if necessary.


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## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> *The Montreal Baseball Project*


I'd just recycle the Labatt Park plan:


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## elly63

flashman said:


> I just try to objectively point out, in a balanced manner, what I see, hear and learn from making a livelihood in the sports world. I would love to see the CFL prosper. I enjoyed it immensely as a boy. If there are better ways for the Argos to achieve that, than a dicey stadium share with a successful and growing soccer team, then they need to be addressed.


You think the status quo is better than BMO? And why would Braley (who has the resources) spend one hundred million of his own or investors money in a venture and situation he can't be sure about in an environment that is basically hostile to his organization (aside from this relatively inexpensive BMO venture).


----------



## elly63

flashman said:


> Given the conventional wisdom being utilized against stadium sharing, I think they're on the wrong track.


What wisdom would that be?


----------



## flashman

elly63 said:


> You think the status quo is better than BMO? And why would Braley (who has the resources) spend one hundred million of his own or investors money in a venture and situation he can't be sure about in an environment that is basically hostile to his organization (aside from this relatively inexpensive BMO venture).


I've clearly expressed what I think is best for the Argos so no need to ask me to repeat it. Just read back.

I'm assuming this "basically hostile" environment you're referring to is the Greater Toronto Area? I can go along with that. His business in this environment is the Argonauts and for the past three decades they've lost money almost every single season. I'd consider that as an adequate definition of a hostile environment.

Why Braley would spend even the first nickle of his money on the Argos is something only he can answer. But the man has littered tens of millions of dollars around in supporting various philanthropic causes, including the CFL. In for a penny, in for a pound.

By his own admission, the only franchise in the league he hasn't financially contributed to is Edmonton. He's owned three of them. If that's true, then he might as well go whole hog and fund a proper new stadium for the Argos. Otherwise, he's simply wasted his money, time and energy since, by many CFL apologists standards, the league is doomed to flounder and die without the presence of a healthy Argonauts club.

The poker players at MLSE have no need to lay down big sums of money to buy the Argos from him, something he's said he wants to see happen relatively soon. He's not young, you know. The city, province and federal government will pay for the necessary changes to accommodate the Argos at BMO Field. But MLSE are under no obligation to buy the Argos and can sit back and wait to see if they actually make money once they move in. 

Which means Braley could face a three-, four-, or more year wait before anyone moves to buy the club. It's highly unlikely anyone other than MLSE is in the running to buy the Argos. It's highly likely they're offering to take the club from him for little more than assuming current debts. He'll make no money from their sale.

Or he can put his own ample wealth and influence to work to create a better alternative.


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## flashman

elly63 said:


> What wisdom would that be?


It doesn't work. Eventually, one tenant leaves or forces removal of the other tenant. 

That's what's happening at the Rogers Centre. Someday the Vancouver Whitecaps will leave BC Place for their own stadium.

Look at how well the Alouettes and Impact do playing in their own facilities in Montreal.

This is a widespread trend throughout sports around the world. BMO Field is not going to be an exception.


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## will101

I was browsing through the seats3d site from Ballena Technologies, and I noticed TD Place is now one of the stadiums listed.

http://www.seats3d.com/cfl/ottawa_redblacks/#/level_2/


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## elly63

Stadium loan brings Regina's debt to $316 million
Austin M. Davis, The Starphoenix April 1, 2014

*The updated design for Regina's new football stadium won't be revealed until at least the middle of May*, said Brent Sjoberg, deputy city manager and stadium project lead.

And even after the design for the $278.2-million facility is made public, it won't be finalized until it's built.

"In a traditional procurement, you'd design everything first, then you'd let it out for bids to find a builder and then build it according to the design," Sjoberg said.

"In this case, they do that work concurrently. So, *throughout the course of the construction, they're designing and building at the same time*."

Sjoberg said the major decisions, like whether to primarily use concrete or steel, will be set early in the process.

"As you get further along, it becomes refinements and smaller details," Sjoberg said. "There's some flexibility as you go, which is good for the project."

On March 14, the City of Regina selected PCL Construction to build, design and provide interim financing for the project. Sjoberg said then that the contract between the city and PCL, and contracts between its subcontractors, would take up to eight weeks to finalize. That timeline is still in place, he said Monday.

A stadium project report on delegation of authority, a financial model update and external financing will be brought before the city's executive committee on Wednesday.

According to the report, there are no changes to the overall financial commitment figures relating to the capital costs, total debt, or mill rate increases since the model was approved by council in January 2013.

The financial model was developed to cover a 30-year period. The report recommends the city proceed with up to a $100.4 million debt issuance in 2014, which will provide $67.4 million for capital and $33 million for interim cashflow purposes.

"We basically did our model and looked at each year and want to make sure we're not short cash in any particular year. The overall model balances out but you can have a year where you need additional cash," Sjoberg said.

With the potential financing of up to $100.4 million, the city crosses the halfway mark towards its authorized debt limit of $450 million. If it's approved on Wednesday, the total debt would be $316.6 million.


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## isaidso

flashman said:


> Hostile?


1. Rogers primary football tenant _(and CUSTOMER)_ are the Argonauts yet they spend hundreds of millions to support a competing product? *That's hostile!*

2. Rogers primary football tenant _(and CUSTOMER)_ are the Argonauts yet Rogers schedules another event on Labour Day knowing full well that Ivor Wynne is demolished and Labour Day is the most important date on the schedule. *That's hostile!*

3. Rogers primary football tenant _(and CUSTOMER)_ are the Argonauts yet Rogers bans people from their stadium that show up with 'No Bills in Toronto' clothing. *That's hostile!*

4. Rogers primary football tenant _(and CUSTOMER)_ are the Argonauts yet almost all Argos banners are taken down permanently and replaced with Bills banners/posters. *That's hostile!*

They couldn't be more hostile if they tried and it's certainly not how you treat a customer. Rogers would have to have their head's buried in the sand if they think they haven't pissed off thousands of people in this city. 



elly63 said:


> That's true but neither does the constant barrage of criticism from folks who are attracted by puppies, shiny objects and fitting in at the water cooler.
> 
> I for one am very tired of seeing things such as going to an NFL website to follow a CFL player (ie Henoc Muamba) and reading comments like, he'll never make it, the CFL sucks. And this is coming from so called "Canadians" The Americans post things like "I've seen the film, he could be what we need", "he's good in the community" "could be another Freeman"
> 
> WTF is wrong with these f'n clowns that they have to try and bring down their own? It's the same with the stadium will be late doomsday crowd. Do ya think it makes you look smart? We heard ya the first time, you don't have to keep repeating it. If it's late we'll all call you a flippin genius, in fact we can do it now and save the trouble later.


Agree 100%.

Not only has Rogers tried their best to run the Argos into the ground (because they bet heavily on a competing product at the expense of their current football tenant), but the incessant condescending banter gets a little much even for those with the thickest skin.


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## flashman

We've been led to believe that the Argos play in the dome either rent free or on an artificially low rent. That was the impression created when they bailed out of participation in the joint soccer-football stadium planning process that involved sites on the campuses of U of T and York U. They were the ones who said the dome deal was too good to turn down.

So maybe Rogers has had enough time to realize that this product is a dog that won't hunt and it's time to move it out. I wouldn't call that hostility, more like big hints. This is a very big business and Rogers want the Argos out so that they can tailor the dome to improve the baseball experience, which generates a minimum of 81 home dates.

If you're in a partnership with a league like the NFL - and Rogers clearly are - then why would they allow merchandise to appear that insults that partner? That's not being hostile, that's simply being protective. It shouldn't baffle anyone when you consider that it's CFL fans wearing this garb and Rogers big rival, TSN, is the CFL's broadcast partner. They acted badly in someone else's home and have been asked to leave. At least they weren't kicked to the curb overnight.

You can be sure that the Argos are about to be put under the exact same microscope if they move to BMO Field. They will never constitute the prime product. They will only be able to stage 10 games max in any one season. A good season for soccer - Toronto FC, international friendlies, national teams(men, women) - will easily top 30 games.

If football is making it difficult for the prime product to be delivered at its very best quality, then a similar awkward situation is going to happen. 

Why doesn't Argo owner David Braley spend some of his own wealth to help create a new, proper home for the Argos? He's been sprinkling 10's of millions around benevolent causes for the past decade. Drop some of that on rebuilding Lamport Stadium. 

It sits across the road from the CNE grounds. There's a GO Train station right there plus all the parking lots at the CNE grounds, plus TTC routes to the door. The amount of land around Lamport is bigger than BMO's footprint and the Argos could do like Montreal and take their playoff games into the dome. 

A rebuilt Lamport would be comparable in capacity to BMO Field and a great home for football, where high school and university games could be hosted, as well as giving the sport a place where the history of the game could be displayed.

Why isn't this option being considered?


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## elly63

The Argos only mistake was to drop out of the York deal. They were screwed by U of T and later by Rogers in scheduling as posted by isaidso. When I say hostile, I didn't even consider any of the things isaidso posted, I meant media. 

Unlike today, in my day, we didn't consider not covering something because it wasn't our "property". Rogers does it's best to ignore the CFL not only because they don't have a stake in it but because they would love to see it gone so they could say there isn't a market for it.

And while we're on that subject, the patently ridiculous claims that when the Argos get high ratings that it's only the people in Saskatchewan and Hamilton watching, nobody in the GTA watches the CFL. Ridiculous! 

As for Lamport, if you go back and read this thread, no one seems to know if it would be possible to do or not. It probably would be a good idea and it is city owned like BMO so it would likely be possible but whether it would be physically possible, who knows. 

When Sherwood Schwarz looked at it previously they said it wasn't. Again, who knows? Tight squeeze for expansion to 25k.


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## flashman

All of what you see in that picture, elly, would have to go. It would require a completely new structure to go up. But they could make it a really fabulous place for Canadian football. I wouldn't worry about building something much more than 24,000 capacity, maybe expandable at the south end. Keep it intimate and well appointed. That would drive ticket demand up and fill the place. It would make for great TV.

The room is there. And the neighbourhood is ideal for such a project. There's some housing, but a lot of commercial space and a re-worked Lamport would be a huge boost to businesses in the area.

If I were the city(how presumptuous), I'd expropriate the property to the west of the stadium (right side of picture) and build in a commercial complex with the stadium. 

This place has the former BMO Field inflatable bubble go over it in winter. I'd keep that feature and make it a usable facility for year round use, which would continue to generate rental revenue for the city. 

It would make it easy for both Canadian football and soccer to be successful and not have fans of both sports get cranky at one another. You only have to look to Montreal to see it working well. It will eventually happen in Vancouver once the Whitecaps get tired of playing on plastic in the dome.


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## elly63

I agree with your post re Lamport, (regardless of the guy whose backyard and house are directly behind it and who might not want it to be expropriated). It's an idea that's been discussed in fan forums but for some reason doesn't seem to get discussed much publicly.

The Argos (if it was physically possible in the space) could follow the old English method of building one stand and then the next year or so build the other, if they had to wait for financing. We know Braley made public statements lamenting the lack of development that went with THF. If he is to be part of a new structure for Toronto, the development would have to follow what they've done with Landsdowne (TD Place) in Ottawa.

As for Vancouver, if you recall the Whitecaps' owner Greg Kerfoot had a plan for a waterfront stadium that was derailed. Strangely, I don't recall hearing much opposition to BC Place. "In 2011, Bob Lenarduzzi confirmed that the team is now committed to BC Place, and that plans for the Waterfront Stadium have been put on hold".


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## ChesterCopperpot

I knocked this up a few months ago for a stadium that fits (just about) the dimensions of the land Lamport (and parking lot) stands on.

Capacity - 31,000 - it could be tightened down to 27,000 or so by making a horseshoe design - dropping one of the endzone seating areas

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=206925


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## isaidso

flashman said:


> So maybe Rogers has had enough time to realize that this product is a dog that won't hunt and it's time to move it out.


The Argos and Jays came with the Skydome; it was part of the package. Rogers knew that when they took ownership of the stadium. If one of those franchises isn't working for you, you sell the stadium and move on. You don't try to kill one of them off; especially one you've been entrusted with as custodian. 



flashman said:


> If you're in a partnership with a league like the NFL - and Rogers clearly are - then why would they allow merchandise to appear that insults that partner?


Becoming a partner of the NFL was a clear conflict of interest. Why on earth would you enter into partnership with your customer's chief competitive threat? You just don't do that. That's like being an Air Canada employee and promoting West Jet because you signed a deal with them. And it wasn't merchandise, these were fans of this stadium's chief football tenant showing up wearing clothing they bought elsewhere in support of that team. 

Rogers should have been front and centre supporting their primary football tenant, but became enemy #1. That's just unheard of in the business world. You try to damage your customer/run it into the ground then ban people who attempt to come to its defense? That's just outrageous. You can bet your bottom dollar if the owners of Soldier Field tried to bring in an alternative product to the Bears/hurt the Bears, fans would be incensed. Argo fans are no different and reacted as one might expect.

Tons of people absolutely HATE Rogers and for good reason.


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## isaidso

ChesterCopperpot said:


> I knocked this up a few months ago for a stadium that fits (just about) the dimensions of the land Lamport (and parking lot) stands on.
> 
> Capacity - 31,000 - it could be tightened down to 27,000 or so by making a horseshoe design - dropping one of the endzone seating areas
> 
> http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=206925


Thanks so much. I've long wondered about that site and did rough calculation to see if a 30,000 seater could fit there. It's a tight fit, but there's also the option of getting rid of Jefferson Avenue between King West and Liberty Street. The buildings there are ripe for re-development or having the land its sitting on re-purposed. 

That would extend the site all the way to Atlantic and allow for another large tier of seating on both the east and west sides. You could put quite a large capacity stadium on a lot that wide. 50,000+


----------



## flashman

isaidso said:


> The Argos and Jays came with the Skydome; it was part of the package. Rogers knew that when they took ownership of the stadium. If one of those franchises isn't working for you, you sell the stadium and move on. *You don't try to kill one of them off; especially one you've been entrusted with as custodian. *
> 
> *Becoming a partner of the NFL was a clear conflict of interest. Why on earth would you enter into partnership with your customer's chief competitive threat? *You just don't do that. That's like being an Air Canada employee and promoting West Jet because you signed a deal with them. And it wasn't merchandise, these were fans of this stadium's chief football tenant showing up wearing clothing they bought elsewhere in support of that team.
> 
> Rogers should have been front and centre supporting their primary football tenant, but became enemy #1. That's just unheard of in the business world. You try to damage your customer/run it into the ground then ban people who attempt to come to its defense? That's just outrageous. You can bet your bottom dollar if the owners of Soldier Field tried to bring in an alternative product to the Bears/hurt the Bears, fans would be incensed. Argo fans are no different and reacted as one might expect.
> 
> *Tons of people absolutely HATE Rogers and for good reason*.


That is just hilarious. it would be nice to maintain a respectful tone in replies, but that is just sheer nonsense when it comes to what a company can or cannot do in regards to what is best for itself in business. It doesn't merit a proper response.

I can't imagine how Rogers will cope without you or your kind, but I'm willing to bet they'll muddle through.

It wouldn't be out of line to expect nothing less than a full and frank apology and retraction from you once they become half owners of the Argos. At the very least, the company they are half owners in now, MLSE, will be re-building BMO Field to house the Argos and provide them with sanctuary and financial salvation. That's some gratitude on your part. 

They're gonna want to see big long grovel scrapes on your bellies before they let you in there to watch CFL games. Assuming you actually go to them.


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## elly63

Please Flashman, spare us the Rogers as good corporate citizens routine. They're certainly not expanding BMO (through MLSE) to save the Argos, that just happens to be a nice excuse to help get what they want. If anyone wanted to save the Argos it would be the Bell/TSN arm of MLSE.

I find it ironic that you can support a company that has benefited from Canadian regulated protection in the marketplace from foreign competitors and yet Rogers is trying to bring in a foreign competitor to kill a Canadian institution that's been around a lot longer than Rogers.

As for purchasing the Argos, I wouldn't question whomever is throwing the life preserver to try and buy some more time to find a better solution. I think we all can believe that MLSE won't be a long term owner of the Argos.

The only thing they've done for the Argos so far is to try and slowly choke them out.

Oh yeah, they cap bandwidth on Internet usage, just another example of this greasy corporation.


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## flashman

Love 'em or hate 'em, nothing said in any of the recent posts on this page justifies denying Rogers their legitimate right to conduct their business, on their own property, as they see fit.

That's the one irreducible point that no amount of bashing, gnashing and thrashing can change. 

If the Argos don't like the terms and conditions of their impending move to BMO Field, they have the option of seeking something else. David Braley certainly has the money to get the ball rolling. I find it highly amusing that someone from Hamilton holds the Argos fate in his hands. 

After all, he still hasn't sold the Argos to MLSE.


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## elly63

Interesting to see articles popping up about communities (Markham, Vaughan, Newmarket) interested in being a home to a York University campus. This could be the long term home the Argos are looking for and correct the wrong decision they made with York years ago.

In this case fed dollars would be available (university infrastructure) but I wouldn't know how this would fit in with Braley's vision of retail development as a vital component to a new stadium plan.


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## elly63

flashman said:


> I find it highly amusing that someone from Hamilton holds the Argos fate in his hands.


You could make a good case that the fate of the Argos directly affects the fate of Hamilton. Do I think the league could soldier on without Toronto, yes. Prosper? Not so much.


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## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Hamilton April 8/2014


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## isaidso

That's a big tier. It makes the new ones on the right look puny. 

I hope we get decent end zone lettering. A simple ' O T T A W A' on a red or black background would be perfect. They always seem to screw it up in Canada for some reason. Acadia and UWO are places I've come across that did it right.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Well here we go folks


----------



## will101

That's a pretty good design. Although I bet they find some way to close off that gap after the first season.


----------



## Neda Say

Uh!!! Wow! How big is this thing? 55K? I mean... Wow!


----------



## GunnerJacket

Re: New Roughriders proposal
Very nice. Not really buying into how they're treating the open end, but I do think they did very well with regards to an unbalanced design. Certainly a top notch venue with room for expansion potential (World Cup!) and all the modern amenities. Hope the community is able to see this one through as it would be a real asset to Canada and the CFL.

Edit: Supposedly it's just around 33k.


----------



## elly63




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## elly63




----------



## carnifex2005

Neda Say said:


> Uh!!! Wow! How big is this thing? 55K? I mean... Wow!


I was thinking the same thing. Looks huge for a 33k stadium that is expandable to 40k.


----------



## isaidso

That's got to be one of the best stadia in a metro under 300,000 anywhere.


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## Neda Say

isaidso said:


> That's got to be one of the best stadia in a metro under 300,000 anywhere.


Agreed! It is a stunning design and if Regina builds it, it will become a crown jewel for the city!


----------



## elly63




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## elly63




----------



## elly63

We recently had an opportunity to chat with Mark Williams, Principal at HKS Architects, the designer of the New Mosaic Stadium.

Below are excerpts from our interview with Mark Williams.

*Mark can you tell us what types of sports projects HKS has worked on?*

We have recently worked on the Dallas Cowboys new stadium, the Indianapolis Colts stadium and are currently working on the New Minnesota Vikings new stadium.

*How long have you been working on the new Mosaic Stadium project?*

I first came to Saskatchewan five years ago and attended a Rider game and came away realizing there was something very special here and gained a great appreciation for the fan base, the city and province. We have been working on the design for this project for over a year. We have fully embraced the challenge of bringing the energy and excitement of Rider Nation into a new design that will be the greatest stadium in the Canadian Football League.

*Can you tell us about your relationship with PCL?*

We have had an incredible relationship with PCL. Having a partner with the expertise that PCL has is an incredible benefit. They have built some of the most incredible buildings, all over the world. These are very difficult projects so having a partner like PCL is a terrific advantage.

*This stadium has been referred to as an “iconic stadium”, can you elaborate on that?*

Many stadiums have a similar look and feel but when people see images of this stadium, they will know this is Mosaic Stadium, home of the Roughriders in Regina, Saskatchewan. It is a very unique design. It not only looks iconic but delivers an incredible fan experience.

*Can you tell us more about stadium access and what is unique with the new Mosaic Stadium?*

We have designed the stadium to provide 360 degree access and the entry points are at grade which means we have lowered the majority of the seating area into the ground. The benefit of that is that 68% of fans will be walking into the stadium and then going down to their seats instead of up. This also means that the height of the stadium will be lower.

*How did the climate impact the design?*

The climate was one of the biggest design drivers on this project. We took into account wind, snow and sun. We then sculpted the design to reduce the impact of extreme climate conditions.

*What are some of the differences that fans will notice?*

The first thing they will notice is the added room, additional amenities and ease of access. The seats are individual and wider, there will be more concessions and obviously more modern washrooms and easy access to those concessions and washrooms.

*Mosaic Stadium will include a General Admission Lounge, can you tell us about that?*

You don’t frequently see a lounge like this in stadiums for general admission ticket holders. The Roughriders wanted to ensure that their ticket holders had access to premium areas. This is a comfortable lounge with great food, drink and washroom amenities for everyone. It’s a great space for fans to hang out in prior to or during the game and its located directly behind the general admission seating on the west side with easy access to the park.

*What is the capacity of the New Mosaic Stadium?*

We designed the seating bowl to meet a capacity of 33,000 spectators but design allows for flexibility to increase the seating capacity to over 40,000 for events such as the Grey Cup. The south end zone is specifically designed to provide flexibility to increase capacity as desired. We have also created multiple configurations for smaller events such as concerts that might bring in smaller crowds.

*What types of premium seating areas have you included?*

Mosaic Stadium will include 38 luxury suites for Rider Corporate partners. It will also include an expanded Club Suite area and a premium Club Lounge. We also have a popular new offering that is most often referred to as Loge Seating. Loge seating is exterior seating with a private premium space configuration for parties of 4-8.


----------



## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> That's got to be one of the best stadia in a metro under 300,000 anywhere.


Easily.

Some of the large college stadiums in places such as Tuscaloosa, Athens and Clemson may be more imposing, but none are quite this iconic.

The only ones I can think of that even come close are the Stade Oceane in Le Havre (~295k) and Baylor's McLane Stadium in Waco (~250k).


----------



## elly63

Regina stadium design unveiled
Regina's $278-million stadium to be ready for 2017 football season
CBC News May 22, 2014

After months of anticipation, the design for the new home of the Saskatchewan Roughriders has been unveiled. The stadium does not have a full roof, but the building features sweeping lines and a design that architects say will cut down dramatically on wind.

The new city-owned building will continue to carry the name Mosaic Stadium for the next 20 years. 

Slated to open in 2017, it will be double the size of the old stadium at 48,483 square metres, but will seat slightly fewer people. The features include: 

- A total capacity of 33,000 seats, expandable to 40,000 (the current stadium seats 33,327).
- 50 cm seats in the stands, about 5 cm wider than those in the old stadium.
- Nine elevators.
- Five entry points,
- 200 concessions.
- 38 bathrooms (the current stadium has 22).

Architects say the design, which features a curved roof designed to handle Saskatchewan snowfalls, will also cut down on the effects of prevailing winds.

"We have opened the last three very successful stadiums in the NFL and I will put this design pound for pound with anything that we have done," Mark Williams of HKS Sports and Entertainment, a U.S.-based architectural firm, said Thursday at the unveiling event in Regina.

Officials at the unveiling said they expect positive reactions to the design.

"Once we get into this stadium, people are going to say 'I love it,"' predicted Roughriders president and CEO Jim Hopson. "I love the fact that it is outdoors still, but we're getting some protection from the wind, from the driving rain and so on."

Construction is to begin in June with a completion target of August 2016. Officials said a number of trial events would be held in the building before being put into full operation, at full capacity, in 2017.

*Cost of stadium remains fixed*

The $278-million stadium was announced in July of 2012 and will be built on the city's exhibition grounds, known as Evraz Place.

Money for the 33,000-seat facility will come from:

- $80 million grant from the province of Saskatchewan.
- $73 million from the city of Regina.
- $25 million generated by such things as naming rights, to be coordinated by the Saskatchewan Roughriders Football Club.
- $100 million loan, from the province, to be paid down over 30 years through a $12 per ticket facility fee tacked onto each football game or any other event at the new stadium.

Regina taxpayers will see regular annual increases to their property taxes in order to generate money for the city's contribution to the construction tab.

Officials have repeatedly promised the stadium will be built on time and within the construction budget.

Deputy city manager Brent Sjoberg says if costs rise, some elements of the stadium design will be adjusted to keep within the budget.

Officials have also insisted the facility be roof-ready. They said Thursday that adding a retractable roof, at a later date, would cost $350 million. A fixed roof would cost $200 million.

Marlene Stanicky, a long time Rider fan who checked out the design Thursday morning, liked what she saw and was hopeful a roof would be added.

"I won't have to put up with as much wind and I'll have an individual seat," Stanicky noted. "And hopefully before it's finished being built they'll have a roof on it."

The current facility, Mosaic Stadium, will be demolished once the new facility is open. The city plans to redevelop the land into a mix of residential and other uses.


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## elly63

Regina’s new stadium to put city "on the international stage" (with video)
Natascia Lypny, The Leader-Post May 22, 2014

REGINA - There’s at least one similarity between Regina’s new football stadium and the city’s current facility: the name.

On Thursday, the City of Regina released the first look at the designs for the new $278-million stadium, which will be called Mosaic Stadium after the company that shares its name extended its 20-year naming rights deal.

Outside of that carry-over, the new stadium will be a “completely different experience,” said Mayor Michael Fougere.

The design involves a sunken lower bowl (which will cover 68 per cent of the stadium’s 33,000 seats), a translucent spectator roof, an open south end zone, individual seats (with backs, armrests and cup holders) and a general admission lounge on the west side.

Climatic response is a key component of the design, with the building constructed to cut down on cold northwest winds that can sweep the current stadium with a bitter chill.

Seating will be expandable to 40,000, and lounges and concourses will be available on non-event days. For the first time, people will be able to walk the entire concourse in one loop.

The designer behind the new stadium, *Mark Williams of HKS Architects, said the stadium compares “pound for pound” with the company’s other projects, which include three NFL stadiums: Lucas Oil, AT&T and the under-construction Minnesota Multipurpose*.

Williams said he was introduced to Rider Nation five years ago when he attended a Saskatchewan Roughriders game in Regina. While designing, he kept the interests and passion of the fan base close at heart, hoping to convey the “raw energy” of Rider Nation in the build.

Although the Credit Union EventPlex, where the design announcement was made, was speckled with the green and white garb of eager Rider fans, Fougere was quick to emphasize that the stadium is more than the home of the Riders; it’s the “catalyst” of the Regina Revitalization Initiative, the city’s largest redevelopment project to date.

“This is the first in the larger puzzle of developing all of downtown.”

Kevin Doherty, minister of parks, culture and sport, was singing the same tune. He extolled the stadium’s role as a premier event-hosting location that will hopefully act as a tourism magnet.

“It puts us on the international stage.”

It’s the kind of transformation for Evraz Place CEO Mark Allan never thought he’d see on the grounds.

Allan said the facility is not only aesthetically pleasing but also offers loading docks and space for catering. He is also encouraged by the improvements to the parking lots — including 100 more spaces — and lighting on the property.

The Riders won’t be the only ones featured on the stadium turf. In July, Sask Sport signed a $75-million, 30-year lease agreement with the city for 10,000 square feet of office space and access to the field for 600 hours a year.

“It’s just going to be a real treat to be in a first-class facility like that and give our amateur athletes a real good opportunity to perform their best,” said Paul Barnby, assistant general manager at Sask Sport.

Not everyone was thrilled with the stadium announcement, though. Colin Craig, prairie director for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, denounced the project’s $278-million cost. That’s $80 million from the provincial government; $73 million from the City of Regina; another $100 million covered through a provincial loan to the city; and $25 million from the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

“Governments can always spend taxpayers’ money and come up with wonderful-looking designs for projects,” Craig said. “Our concern is always in terms of the process. And in this case, taxpayers weren’t given the opportunity to, at the very least, vote on the stadium proposal.”

The City of Regina has signed a fixed price contract with PCL Construction, meaning that cost overruns and delays will fall on the company.

Because of this contract and the strict financing and schedule conditions of the project, the detailed plans for the construction will be made concurrently with the build.

Excavation and piling is set to begin in the next two months. The stadium is expected to be mostly completed by August 2016.

By the numbers, and compared to other new Canadian stadiums:

*Mosaic Stadium (Regina)*

Cost: $278.2 million
Seating capacity: 33,000 (expandable to 40,000)
Construction timeline: 2014 to 2017
Restrooms: 38 (861 fixtures)
Elevators: 9
Sunken playing field: 11 metres deep; 300,000 cubic metres of excavated soil (equivalent to 110 olympic sized swimming pools).
Canopy: covers 50 to 60 per cent of seats
Stadium size: 48,483 square metres
Video boards: 2
Longest row of seats: 28
Entrance points: 5
Sets of ramps: 2
Concession points of sale: 200
Seat size: 50 to 60 centimetres wide
Luxury suites: 2 levels (38 suites, 610 seats in total)
Field orientation: North-south

*Investors Group Field (Winnipeg)*

Cost: $205 million (could climb to $208 million)
Seating capacity: 33,500 (expandable to 40,000)
Construction timeline: 2010 to 2013
Restrooms: 28
Elevators: 6
Sunken playing field: 7 metres deep
Canopy: Covers 80 per cent of seats

*Tim Hortons Field (Hamilton)*

Cost: $145.7 million
Seating capacity: 24,000 (expandable to 35,000)
Construction timeline: 2012/2013 to 2014
Restrooms: Number unknown
Elevators: 6
Sunken playing field: No
Canopy: No
Entrance points: 4
Field orientation: North-south


----------



## IllumL8ker

I am absolutely in love with this new Roughriders stadium... floored and excited for Saskatchewan


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## isaidso

They deserve it. It's Canada's best football city by a wide margin.


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## Neda Say

Considering the new "Prairies" stadium: Winnipeg, Regina ; and the new Ontario' stadium: Hamilton, Ottawa... Isn't there a little problem... How come they can get 30k+ other there and barely 25k other here ? Before you mention the lower cost of construction and available space and strong community support... I know all of these factors but there must be something else...

The Prairies are going to rock the CFL for years to come with this stadium advantage.


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## KingmanIII

^^ It's partly because the CFL is a blue-collar league and a lot of city slickers think they're too cool for it

It's not uncommon for as many Torontonians to go to the Bills game on Sunday as to the Argos game the day before.


----------



## Guest

elly63 said:


> And they'll still lose money on the deal


You clearly dont understand my point. Bradley/Defoe will cost TFC $100m when all is said and done. That kind of expenditure, unheard of in CFL, can lead to losses. Yet MLSE still went ahead and did it. 

You're making it out as if TFC are in bad shape, which would be wholly misleading.


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## ChesterCopperpot

From Scott Mitchell's Twitter


----------



## elly63

5portsF4n said:


> Bradley/Defoe will cost TFC $100m when all is said and done. That kind of expenditure, unheard of in CFL, can lead to losses. Yet MLSE still went ahead and did it.
> 
> You're making it out as if TFC are in bad shape, which would be wholly misleading.


Not too much difficult about that to understand. You just said it yourself, it will lead to losses. They're hoping the stadium expansion will lead to greater profit and pay back the investment made into their high profile signings. 

I certainly don't think they are in bad shape but TFC should be counting their blessings they are owned by MLSE


----------



## IllumL8ker

Watch staples building domolishon to make way for the new Arena District in Edmonton:

http://rogersplace.com/watch-staples-building-demolition/


----------



## IllumL8ker

Vancouver Canucks vs Pheonix Coyotes Jan, 26th 2014

Warm Up!










Cheers!


----------



## IllumL8ker

Game Action!











OT Winner BABY!! VICTORY!!!


----------



## isaidso

Stayed focused. This is a development thread. 

*Lansdowne Place, Ottawa*

Football should never have left the nation's capital in the first place, but it's good to have Ottawa back in the fold. Installation of turf can't be that far off.

Front Page Media Group 










TD Place Facebook page (more photos)


----------



## will101

isaidso said:


> Installation of turf can't be that far off.


I would assume that is why they are furiously grading in the pic. If it's artificial turf, they could have it down before the end of the week.


----------



## GunnerJacket

isaidso said:


> Stayed focused. This is a development thread.
> 
> *Lansdowne Place, Ottawa*
> 
> Football should never have left the nation's capital in the first place, but it's good to have Ottawa back in the fold. Installation of turf can't be that far off.


Looking good!

I agree, it's nice to see Ottowa back in the CFL. So who'll be #10 and when might we see real action on that front?


----------



## Cjones2451

GunnerJacket said:


> Looking good!
> 
> I agree, it's nice to see Ottowa back in the CFL. So who'll be #10 and when might we see real action on that front?


I think it will be Halifax, but until there is some commitment from all levels of Government to build a stadium, not sure when that will happen

Quebec City is too focused on NHL and the University of Laval does not want to give up their lock on football

Moncton is just too small overall, and is abig risk but does have the beginings of a stadium


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> Installation of *artificial* turf can't be that far off.


It's already started.

Moving in on the RedBlacks' turf (Video)
Doug Hempstead, Ottawa Sun June 02, 2014

The first row of turf was laid down at TD Place Monday morning.

However rough the football gets which will be played upon it, likely will be no match for the effort required to get it put down.

A crew of about 10 men worked -- on freshly paved black asphalt, under record heat -- pulling the heavy rows of turf together then gluing and sewing them together as other clamped the joins.

All this is steel-toed boots and helmets, no shorts allowed.

Mayor Jim Watson brought the Sun along for his sneak peek at the work being done.

"This is one of the milestones of the project," he said. "Actually putting down the astro turf. It's quite a production as you can see. By the end of this month, this will be a sea of green astro turf and we'll start painting the lines. It's very exciting to see Lansdowne coming back to life."










It wasn't the mayor's only business on the site Monday.

Along with tour guide, project manager Marco Manconi, the mayor embedded a rusty old nail in the foundation of what will become Lansdowne's refrigerated outdoor rink.

The nail was found on site during excavations, believed to be from the wooden cribbing when the Rideau Canal jutted into the property.

"The new rink slab gets poured tomorrow, so what we thought we'd do is place a little bit of old history of old Lansdowne into the new rink," said Manconi.


----------



## elly63

Site Super at ticats.ca says the artificial surface at THF will be FieldTurf Revolution


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field June 7/2014

Things really picking up now


----------



## isaidso

elly63 said:


> It's already started.


That's a beautiful site. Many have waited 8 long years for this.


----------



## isaidso

Cjones2451 said:


> I think it will be Halifax, but until there is some commitment from all levels of Government to build a stadium, not sure when that will happen
> 
> Quebec City is too focused on NHL and the University of Laval does not want to give up their lock on football
> 
> Moncton is just too small overall, and is abig risk but does have the beginings of a stadium


Agree with all of those points. The only thing one could add is that government officials in Halifax have indicated that a stadium is a 'when' rather than an 'if' at this point. Judging by how slow things move out east, we'll likely have to wait till 2019 at the earliest.

Btw, it's Université Laval (or Laval University in English) not University of Laval. It was named after a person, not a place.


----------



## elly63




----------



## will101

I said the turf would be installed by the end of the week, and it turns out I was pessimistic.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

This morning at THF


----------



## elly63

Tks to EvilDoctor at ticats.ca

The other side


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field Hamilton June 11/2014

Holy smokes, they are getting serious about the seat installation, I hope the field installation can keep pace.


----------



## isaidso

They're going to have to if they want to be ready for Hamilton's home opener. Ottawa looks like it will be done on time while this one is still making lots of people nervous. One significant set back and they'll be in trouble. There's little to no margin for error.


----------



## will101

Ottawa's first game in the new stadium is July 18, and Hamilton's is July 26. The amenities might run late, but I think they both can have the basics in place without too much trouble.


----------



## elly63

Caretaker's Update from Tim Hortons Field
The Caretaker, Bob Young, checks in from the site of Tim Hortons Field June 11, 2014


----------



## Neda Say

elly63 said:


>


I know that the turf is not all tucked in yet but they could not get a turf that had a more naturally look and feel. 

I'd also like to know how much support do the turfs provide as they are pretty thin and have a layer of blacktop underneath while regular grass has a layer of softer soil underneath. or is the blacktop at Landsdowne engineered to be softer than regular blacktop?


----------



## will101

Neda Say said:


> I know that the turf is not all tucked in yet but they could not get a turf that had a more naturally look and feel.
> 
> I'd also like to know how much support do the turfs provide as they are pretty thin and have a layer of blacktop underneath while regular grass has a layer of softer soil underneath. or is the blacktop at Landsdowne engineered to be softer than regular blacktop?


All modern artificial turfs have a layer of padding between the turf itself, and whatever the underlying surface is. There is often a layer of porous soil with pipes for drainage, too. The days where players would joke that the turf was "a thin layer of green sandpaper glued to concrete" are long gone.


----------



## isaidso

will101 said:


> Ottawa's first game in the new stadium is July 18, and Hamilton's is July 26. The amenities might run late, but I think they both can have the basics in place without too much trouble.


You're likely right, but they're certainly cutting it close.


----------



## will101

isaidso said:


> You're likely right, but they're certainly cutting it close.


This is true.


----------



## elly63

Tks to Patrick Barry at ticats.ca

Tim Hortons Field June 15/2014


----------



## IllumL8ker

Here is the first of a series I am going to do on a stadium/arena volume on stadiums/arenas completions/renovations since 2007.

1. BMO Field. 2007 - Capacity: 21,566


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## IllumL8ker

2. PEPS Staidum - 2009 (Renovations) Capacity: 12,257 (expandable to 19,500)


----------



## IllumL8ker

3. Moncton Staidum - 2010 - Capacity: 10,000 (expandable to 20,725)


----------



## IllumL8ker

4. Percival Molson Memorial Stadium - 2010 (Renovations) Capacity: 25,012


----------



## IllumL8ker

5. BC Place - 2011 (Renovations) Capacity: 54,320


----------



## IllumL8ker

6. Saputo Stadium - 2012 (Renovations) Capacity: 20,521


----------



## IllumL8ker

7. Investors Group Field - 2013 - Capacity: 33,422 (expandable to 40,000)


----------



## IllumL8ker

8. Commonwealth Staidum - 2013 (Renovations) Capacity: 56,302


----------



## IllumL8ker

9. TD Place Stadium - 2014 - Capacity: 24,000


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## IllumL8ker

10. Tim Hortons Field - 2014 - Capacity: 22,500 + 1,500 standing room/patio (permanent) 40,000 (special events)


----------



## IllumL8ker

11. New Quebec City Amphitheatre - 2015 - Capacity: 20,014 (maximum) 18,482 (hockey)


----------



## IllumL8ker

12. Rogers Place - 2016 - Capacity: Hockey: 18,641 Concert: 20,734


----------



## IllumL8ker

13. New Mosiac Stadium - 2017 - Capacity: 33,000


----------



## elly63

Tim Hortons Field June 16/2014


----------



## elly63

TD Place Ottawa June 16/2014

It's getting close


----------



## GunnerJacket

That's odd. Not sure if I'm just noticing or what, but the pic below suggests the roof is asymmetrical - It doesn't peak at the center of the field. Am I missing something? 



elly63 said:


> TD Place Ottawa June 16/2014
> 
> It's getting close


Otherwise I love the new addition. Seems perfect.


----------



## isaidso

Well done 'IllumL8ker'. Canada is seeing a golden era of stadium/arena investment.


----------



## KingmanIII

Am I the only one disappointed about how small Hamilton and Ottawa's stadiums are gonna be? 25k seems so limiting for future growth, especially when the league is arguably the strongest it's been since the early '80s. I'd've built 30k perm seats, minimum. I think the Als will outgrow Molson down the line, too.


----------



## isaidso

KingmanIII said:


> Am I the only one disappointed about how small Hamilton and Ottawa's stadiums are gonna be? 25k seems so limiting for future growth, especially when the league is arguably the strongest it's been since the early '80s. I'd've built 30k perm seats, minimum. I think the Als will outgrow Molson down the line, too.


No, lots of people feel the same way but are resigned to the fact that this is what we'll get. We all know that they want to limit supply to create scarcity, but they have gone far too far down that road. Neither gives the feeling of 'major league'. Winnipeg's stadium should have been the blueprint for the rest of the CFL. 

I'm disappointed, but it is what it is.


----------



## koolio

Hamilton and Ottawa are not as strong a football market as Winnipeg and Regina. I think it is sensible to have limited the capacity to around 25k. The only thing that disappoints me is how bare bones the new Hamilton stadium is going to look. Ottawa's stadium, despite being small, will look like a proper professional league venue. Tim Hortons Field will look on par with some high school football stadiums in Texas. They really should have built roofs over the stands and/or built a proper facade that the neighbouring homeowners won't cringe after looking at it on a daily basis.


----------



## GunnerJacket

koolio said:


> The only thing that disappoints me is how bare bones the new Hamilton stadium is going to look. ... Tim Hortons Field will look on par with some high school football stadiums in Texas.


Texas is never a good role model for sanity when it comes to sporting sense! I suggest finding another role model there. 



KingmanIII said:


> Am I the only one disappointed about how small Hamilton and Ottawa's stadiums are gonna be? 25k seems so limiting for future growth...


Perhaps but there is room for growth in both and haven't we seen depictions of Horton's with a larger event capacity? That would suggest they've already considered expansion to at least some degree.


----------



## isaidso

Hamilton and Ottawa may not be as strong football markets as Winnipeg and Regina, but they cut capacity far too much. Hamilton's is barely bigger than a hockey arena (with 22,500 permanent seats), while Ottawa is pushing 1.4 million people. If Ottawa can't fill a 30,000 seater that's quite pitiful.


----------



## elly63

isaidso said:


> Hamilton and Ottawa may not be as strong football markets as Winnipeg and Regina, but they cut capacity far too much. Hamilton's is barely bigger than a hockey arena, while Ottawa is pushing 1.4 million people. If Ottawa can't fill a 30,000 seater that's quite pitiful.


Pitiful maybe, but to go bigger in either market would be folly. I know you think that the CFL should draw what it did in the 70s and because it doesn't you deem that as failure. Times and audiences change. Even the NFL (aside from Jerry World) is looking at downsizing. 

Montreal expanded and isn't close to selling out. Empty seats don't make money.


----------



## elly63

koolio said:


> The only thing that disappoints me is how bare bones the new Hamilton stadium is going to look. Ottawa's stadium, despite being small, will look like a proper professional league venue. Tim Hortons Field will look on par with some high school football stadiums in Texas. They really should have built roofs over the stands and/or built a proper facade that the neighbouring homeowners won't cringe after looking at it on a daily basis.


Sorry, but the Texas high school argument is BS. We've already been through it comparing photos and amenities. When it's finished THF will look just fine. We should be thankful that the CFL has some different designs and not cookie cutter ones like MLB in the early 70s.

And part of the design of THF was to not overwhelm the surrounding neighbourhood and have it fit in.


----------



## Scba

Hopefully it turns out better than that Texas stadium, considering it's been condemned.


----------



## elly63

Scba said:


> Hopefully it turns out better than that Texas stadium, considering it's been condemned.


Yes, the one everybody compared THF to, forgot about that. 

That Texas high school stadium argument gets more lame by the minute.


----------



## Neda Say

isaidso said:


> Hamilton and Ottawa may not be as strong football markets as Winnipeg and Regina, but they cut capacity far too much. Hamilton's is barely bigger than a hockey arena (with 22,500 permanent seats), while Ottawa is pushing 1.4 million people. If Ottawa can't fill a 30,000 seater that's quite pitiful.



Ottawa's stadium did plan for expansion with fondations for a stand behind the goal lines. I guess the stadium could grow easily to 30k if and when needed provided the team establishes itself properly and the makes the expansion sustainable. 

As for Hamilton, I totally share most opinions here. But in a way, it is so barebone that I wonder if they did not want it to look that barebone. It should be easy to put up a clad and have it look more "finished" but I think they wanted it to look that way it's capacity puts a toll on casual football goers imo. 


Pro sports these days do want ticket buyers to become cash cows, they want them to get season tickets at a premium so that they can forecast their budget and show good numbers to their owners and other stakeholders... 

I'd like to go to see Alouettes games more often but last time I got to ticket office they told me they were sold out only to find a guy at the street corner willing to sell me as many tickets as I wanted for a 20% premium on the price at the ticket office. Alouettes front office doesn't seem to mind, they sold their tickets and their books are balanced... I think I know the value of a seat and I refuse to pay that much, in the end this kind of practice will drive people away from the sport.


----------



## GunnerJacket

Questions for the knowledgeable Canucks in the audience: (and I realize this is all whimsy at this point)

- If/when Toronto pursues the Olympics once more what would they do for an main stadium? Would there be a variation on London's down-sizable stadium concept? Is there a prime spot still available from their earlier bids?

- If/when Canada chases the World Cup, where would the main venue be located? Toronto? 

I'm actually attempting to inventory potential hosts based on feasibility and I'm curious as to exactly how much construction would be needed to pull off either event.


----------



## elly63

The federal government is not in the business of funding stadiums and they sure as hell won't put any funding towards one that will be flipped to an NFL franchise. That would be political suicide. If there is to be a large new stadium built it will have to be privately funded.

If there was a way for the government to fund a 40k stadium expandable to 80k who would be the remaining tenant at 40K. Argos? TFC?

The problems with BMO now are troubling. Multiply that tenfold.


----------



## elly63

Tks to Migs at skyscraperpage

Mosaic Stadium Regina, Canada
Size - 33,000 permanent seats
Completion - Under construction
Client - HKS Sports & Entertainment Group
Collaboration - B+H is Architect of Record; HKS Sports & Entertainment Group is Lead Design and Sports Architect

B+H is the Architect of Record for the new Mosaic Stadium at Evraz Place, the iconic keystone project of the city’s Regina Revitalization Initiative and new home of the CFL’s Saskatchewan Roughriders. 

With a standard capacity of 33,000 spectators which is expandable to 40,000, the flexible design will allow the stadium to host a variety of events. 

An exceptional user experience will be provided with a translucent spectator roof and open south end zone connecting the stadium to the community and create a feeling of spaciousness, a general admission lounge accessible to all users and 68 per cent of seats located in a sunken lower bowl. 

The Stadium’s base will be clad in native stone to reflect the region’s geology. 

*Substantial completion is expected in August 2016*, with the first game being played in the stadium in June 2017. The project team, led by PCL, also includes HKS Sports & Entertainment Group as Lead Design and Sports Architect.


----------



## isaidso

Gawd that Sask stadium is sweet. I never get tired of looking at it. A+



GunnerJacket said:


> Questions for the knowledgeable Canucks in the audience: (and I realize this is all whimsy at this point)
> 
> - If/when Toronto pursues the Olympics once more what would they do for an main stadium? Would there be a variation on London's down-sizable stadium concept? Is there a prime spot still available from their earlier bids?
> 
> - If/when Canada chases the World Cup, where would the main venue be located? Toronto?
> 
> I'm actually attempting to inventory potential hosts based on feasibility and I'm curious as to exactly how much construction would be needed to pull off either event.


I agree with 'elly63'. The only way Toronto will get a government funded stadium is if it can be immediately shrunk down to 35,000 - 40,000 after the Olympics or World Cup to become a permanent home of the Argonauts. Funding a stadium for a future NFL team would be political suicide and a non-starter.

The most promising site imo is the industrial area south of the East Bayfront off Cherry Street. East Bayfront will have LRT so it's not a stretch to see service extended to a nearby stadium.


----------



## lwa

Anyone know if the pitch at BC Place is to be replaced before next years FIFA Women's World Cup?

Sure I remember reading somewhere it was being considered, with the replacement to be an IRB-compliant pitch. Which is desperately needed from Rugby Canada's PoV, with them having filled the biggest available venue (BMO Field) a few times now..


----------



## will101

IllumL8ker said:


> fLuck ya bud... we need a gold cup here. some int. fiendlies evenly spread out coast to coast would be nice too..


Set up a round-robin, and invite an also-ran from each of the other five continental groups. New Zealand could be an automatic, as the top team in Oceana, and a guaranteed draw in Canada. Add one of the UK teams (maybe Scotland) and the top also-ran in South America. Then all you need is to go poking around for surprising eliminations in Africa and Asia. South Africa and China would have been good teams for 2014. Every team plays five games over three weeks or so. You'd have an event with lots of spectator appeal, and one that will get some international notice.


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## lwa

RUGBY CANADA BIDS TO HOST RUGBY SEVENS WORLD SERIES IN VANCOUVER ANNUALLY

http://www.rugbycanada.ca/leagues/newsletter.cfm?clientID=3817&leagueID=0&page=80651



> VANCOUVER, BC – Rugby Canada and the Canada Sevens Bid Committee announced today a formal bid submission for Vancouver to host the International Rugby Board (IRB) Sevens World Series, starting in 2016. This is the IRB’s premier Sevens event and is part of the build up to the IRB debut at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games for both men’s and women’s Rugby Sevens. The Vancouver-based bid package was unveiled today by Rugby Canada, the Canada Sevens Bid Committee, dignitaries, corporate supporters and top Canadian rugby athletes.
> 
> The Canada Sevens brand positioning, “New Place, New Face, New Force”, reflects Canada’s ranking and growing presence in international Rugby Sevens. The bid package, to be couriered to the IRB Headquarters in Dublin Ireland, includes a detailed bid book, video and a specially hand painted, vintage rugby ball by internationally recognized First Nations and 2010 Olympic Games medals artist Corrine Hunt.
> 
> The proposed Canada Sevens event is a two-day indoor tournament proposed for BC Place stadium (a global first) and will feature 16 of the world’s top Men’s Rugby Sevens teams. The bid lays out a dynamic event platform that promises a celebration of sport, culture and community – reaching rugby loyalists and general sport and event fans alike. Sevens Rugby, a fast-paced, condensed version of traditional rugby with only seven players per side, attracts large audiences in markets as diverse as Hong Kong, Wellington, Dubai and London where the Sevens World Series is a must-attend event. The tour will be expanded through this bid process, from nine stops to ten major cities to be selected by the IRB. Competition is expected to be fierce between bidding countries.



Suppose that goes some way to answering my previous question about the pitch at BC Place then.. Would be delighted to see a 7's event in Canada, especially if they can keep up their recent improvement in the sport. Even if it is slightly unorthodox being an indoor event!


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## carnifex2005

Awesome news. I watched the Canada/Japan rugby match as Swangard a few weeks ago and had a good time. It is such a shame that the Whitecaps waterfront stadium never came about. That would have been a perfect location and size for continual international rugby (as well as the close proximity to the nice bars and restaurants in Gastown).


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## RMB2007

isaidso said:


> Ottawa's new football stadium


Aerial view. From cityofottawa on Flickr:



















https://www.flickr.com/photos/cityofottawa/


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## ChesterCopperpot

Turf starting to go down in Hamilton - first pic from Waldorfian on Ticats.ca forum


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## will101

That bottom pic almost makes it look like it snowed.


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## ChesterCopperpot

And here come the yellow seats on the Upper East stands


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## IllumL8ker

Why does it say Ottawa was home for their preseason game HERE, it was in Saskatchewan???

Their home home opener is July, 18th.

Someones gotta get pics btw.


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## Cjones2451

IllumL8ker said:


> Why does it say Ottawa was home for their preseason game HERE, it was in Saskatchewan???
> 
> Their home home opener is July, 18th.
> 
> Someones gotta get pics btw.


Ottawa was treated as the "Home" team but played it as Mosiac. There are some pics on he RedBlacks web site and twitter page, it was a monsoon there like all 3 games there so far this year


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## elly63

Tim Hortons Field July 4/2014 3:30 pm


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## elly63

Ticat home game still a go - for now
Scott Radley thespec.com July 3/2014

Last week, everyone involved in the stadium project said the plan was to have Tim Hortons Field ready for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats' first Canadian Football League home game July 26.

A week closer to D-Day, that hasn't really changed.

A four-hour Pan Am Games facilities meeting in Toronto on Thursday involving all the principals ended with those involved still saying they're doing everything they can to make that happen.

"We're still in negotiations trying to get the game in," says Gerry Davis, general manager of public works, adding there's another meeting scheduled Monday in Toronto to continue figuring it all out.

Citing the confidentiality of the meeting, he wouldn't offer any details of what exactly was being negotiated. However, he acknowledged there are challenges.

"There are a number of issues that have to be resolved," Davis says.

They revolve around the race to get enough done to be ready for inspection toward an occupancy permit, a process that's scheduled to begin in just 12 days.

The city's building code requirements about what must be done to receive such a permit are clear but a little complicated due to the uniqueness of the project. Distilled to its most-simple form, whatever area is going to be used must be completely finished before the city will sign off on it.

The absolute minimum, therefore, would be the installation of 24,000 seats — the backs are in place but not the actual seat — as well as all hand railings and other safety features in the public area. Entrances and exits must be marked and clear, and all areas not being used must be securely blocked by walls or gates.

It gets more complicated if private boxes, the press box, concourses, washrooms and other enclosed areas are to be occupied.

For those to be OK'd, the rooms must be completed, sprinkler systems must be in working order, plumbing, sewage, lighting and electrical must be operational. This includes all hallways and stairwells.

Essentially, the building department must be satisfied that anyplace someone might be while in the facility is safe. And no, there's no leeway for being nearly ready.

"It's either done or it's not," says Ed VanderWindt, the city's chief building official. "We will sign off when it's complete."

Not on the list of areas needed to be inspected for the permit are the grounds, including the scoreboard, which also still has to be erected. Also not on the list is the field itself.

One of the areas that's been a topic of much discussion is the installation of the turf, with good reason. FieldTurf's website says it takes the company 27 days from the time the turf arrives on site until completion. This sounds like a significant problem since it only arrived Wednesday and the first game is just 24 days later.

But FieldTurf's Darren Gill says the time frame on the website is "a casual estimate" and should be seen as a guide rather than gospel.

"We've installed fields in a very, very short period of time," he says.

Rollout and installation of the turf began Thursday.

But, back to the stadium itself. Last week, at that briefing on the state of the project, it was made clear the request for inspection would be made on July 15 with a goal of having a permit granted by July 21. Any later and the Ticats wouldn't have enough time to move in and get ready for showtime.

That means the builders have 18 days to have all the required work done if there's to be a game.


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## elly63

Tim Hortons Field July 5/2014 12:30 pm


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## will101

I'm glad to see the Ti-Cats' field nearing completion, but that's the least of their worries. Is the "plan B" field another game at Ron Joyce?


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## elly63

Nobody knows. On TSN Dave Naylor reported that it would be Mac. Others cite an open date at the RC and still others proffer a date switch with Ottawa.

Seats and field, I'm comfortable will be ready, the problem will be the entrance/exit, fire and safety issues that we can't see. This is going to be extremely tight, I'm thinking it won't happen but I don't know the extent to which the interior safety issues (as noted above) are near completion.


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## elly63

Tim Hortons Field July 5/2014


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## flashman

Rogers Centre would be a good choice. Would be quite funny if it's biggest CFL crowd of the season was a Tabbies home game.

Argos sure aren't making much use of it and have set the bar quite low. An 'announced' crowd of just over 17,000 for the home opener against the always appealing Saskatchewan Roughriders. If that was an accurate number - and eyewitnesses say it's a stretch - that would mean a walk-up crowd of almost 14,000 joining the 3,500 or so season ticket holders.










Rod Pedersen (Ruffies play-by-play) should have some interesting comments in his blog this week.


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## GunnerJacket

Horton's now coming together. Last pic looks very nice.


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## ChesterCopperpot

https://twitter.com/radleyatthespec 



> Scott Radley @radleyatthespec · 8m
> Tim Hortons Field will not be ready for July 26 or 31 games, city says. #HamOnt
> 
> Scott Radley @radleyatthespec · 7m
> BREAKING: #Ticats will not be playing July 26 or 31 games at Tim Hortons Field because it will not be ready, city says.


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## will101

*CFL: City of Hamilton says Tim Hortons Field not ready for July games*

From the Hamilton Spectator:


> By Steve Milton
> 
> The City of Hamilton has confirmed in a release that Tim Hortons Field will not be ready for the first two scheduled Tiger-Cat home games.
> 
> It is believed that games against the new Ottawa RedBlacks on July 26 and against Winnipeg Blue Bombers July 31 scheduled for the Pan Am stadium will be played at McMaster's Ron Joyce Stadium, although the Tiger-Cats have not confirmed that.
> 
> The announcement that the behind-schedule construction of the new stadium would in fact delay the official opening came after a meeting of all involved parties today in Toronto.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> 905-526-3268 | @miltonatthespec


http://www.thespec.com/sports-story...s-tim-hortons-field-not-ready-for-july-games/


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## carnifex2005

will101 said:


> From the Hamilton Spectator:
> 
> http://www.thespec.com/sports-story...s-tim-hortons-field-not-ready-for-july-games/


The Ti-Cats president just confirmed those two games will be at McMaster on the Bob McCown national radio show. McMaster holds 6,000, so there are 18,000 fans that are out of luck (the new stadium holds 24k). The Ti-Cats president also said they will be suing someone over this clusterfuck.


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## will101

carnifex2005 said:


> The Ti-Cats president just confirmed those two games will be at McMaster on the Bob McCown national radio show. McMaster holds 6,000, so there are 18,000 fans that are out of luck (the new stadium holds 24k). The Ti-Cats president also said they will be suing someone over this clusterfuck.


I assume that when on the air, he phrased the last sentence a bit differently?


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## carnifex2005

will101 said:


> I assume that when on the air, he phrased the last sentence a bit differently?


Heh, yeah he did. He basically said that he doesn't blame the city but they will be going to litigation with them and the construction company since there were contracts that haven't been met as far as completion time. As well, they weren't updated there would be a problem until it was too late. Basically he was biting his tongue the entire time during the interview but he wasn't happy.


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## will101

carnifex2005 said:


> Heh, yeah he did. He basically said that he doesn't blame the city but they will be going to litigation with them and the construction company since there were contracts that haven't been met as far as completion time. As well, they weren't updated there would be a problem until it was too late. Basically he was biting his tongue the entire time during the interview but he wasn't happy.


I'll bet. I've heard interviews on the radio when the person in question is being _very_ careful in what they say, but you can almost feel the steam coming out of his/her ears. In this case I wouldn't blame him if he had said clusterfuck on the air.


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## koolio

will101 said:


> From the Hamilton Spectator:
> 
> http://www.thespec.com/sports-story...s-tim-hortons-field-not-ready-for-july-games/


It was very obvious for a long time. I'm assuming the team had already worked out the backup plans with McMaster quite a while ago. I recall they weren't able to accommodate the Ti-Cats last year.


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## RMB2007

:shocked:












> A 35,000 seat cricket stadium looks to be in the cards for the Greater Toronto Area, as the Canadian Premier League T20 has worked out financing for the project with Avcom Investments Inc. While the location has yet to be decided on, with a funding plan in place, the eventual site is going to be home to one spectacular looking facility, especially compared to current pitches around the city. The cost of the stadium has been pegged at $700 million.
> 
> "With this financing we can now move to the next phase of selecting a site and securing further investors for this ambitious project," said league chairman Roy Singh. The plan is to have the stadium built in "four to five" years, but based on the early rendering, it looks like it'll be worth the wait. The stadium will feature a natural grass field and a fixed roof that allows sunlight to reach the pitch.
> 
> The league is set to launch its inaugural season late next summer in a temporary stadium just outside the city (exact location also TBD). There's still a chance that the league will start in another city should it not secure a temporary location, but a final decision on where it will touchdown should come as soon as this August. That's big news for local cricket fans.


http://www.blogto.com/city/2014/07/massive_cricket_stadium_coming_to_the_gta/


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## carnifex2005

April Fools is late this year. This will never get made.


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## koolio

Lol what a joke. No one is going to spend 700 million dollars on a cricket stadium.


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## weava

yea, they are going to find $700 million for a sport that isn't is essentially unknown in north America for a league that has never even played a game. 

If anything, Toronto should spend that money to build a new MLB and CFL stadiums. Have the jays pitch in $100-200 million and build a $500 million baseball park (and have retractable outfield bleachers to fit in a cricket field. 
And then build a $300 million CFL stadium that is expandable for grey cup/future NFL games, etc, something like the U of Minn football stadium which cost about that much and you end up spending the same amount of money and end up giving everybody a brand new stadium.

I think they could find a way to fit both baseball/cricket into the same stadium with some movable seating. The dimensions aren't horribly different.


----------



## KingmanIII

RMB2007 said:


> :shocked:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.blogto.com/city/2014/07/massive_cricket_stadium_coming_to_the_gta/


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## isaidso

I'm just shocked that someone actually bothered to make a rendering for it. It would end up being the Mirabel of sports stadia.


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## flashman

How very dare those cricketers dream of something special for their game.

Of course, if you happen to live and work in Canada's more cosmopolitan cities and connect with members of the prosperous and rapidly-growing Asian and Caribbean communities, you soon see the love they have for their sport. And if such a project is privately funded, it's beyond anyone's scope to criticize it. It would have the potential to revive events like the exciting Sahara Cup, which was abandoned when India and Pakistan's political relationship got frosty. But there was some serious coin rolled up in that event.

Is there money amongst these communities to build such a project? More than enough. Smart investors look ahead and get in early. Virtually all of Canada's net population growth in 20 years time will come from immigration. Smart companies are already reaching out to connect with them:

http://www.barrettandwelsh.com/work/category/multicultural/


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## isaidso

Except we do live here so realize immediately that there's nowhere near enough cricket supporters to support that proposal and won't be enough for many many decades to come. Dreaming is one thing, lunacy is another.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Well - look what I found - one of the losing designs for Tim Horton's Field/Pan Am Soccer Stadium

http://www.regionalarchitects.com/project/2015-pan-american-games-soccer-stadium



> *rA and pA were selected as part of Bird Construction and Turner Construction’s Design-Build team for the design and delivery of the 2015 Pan American Games Soccer Stadium in Hamilton, Ontario*. The new 22,500-seat stadium will replace the legendary Ivor Wynne Stadium and serve as a soccer venue during the games and as the new home for the Hamilton Tiger Cats football team following the games. The stadium sits within Hamilton’s Stipley neighbourhood, long recognized as a strong working-class neighbourhood with a dense fabric of single-family homes but lacking in parks and services.
> 
> Our team were responsible for planning the approach to site including: stadium orientation, circulation, community integration, landscape architectural design and the design of ancillary structures on the site. Special attention was paid to ensure the site could be used during off-game times for the Hamilton-Wentworth School Board use, and community special events and concerts. We were also responsible for planning the deployment of the Pan Am Games Overlay program, the temporary construction and facilities required for the Games on the site. The submission was completed in joint-venture with Populous and Kasian Architecture.


----------



## flashman

isaidso said:


> Except we do live here so realize immediately that there's nowhere near enough cricket supporters to support that proposal and won't be enough for many many decades to come. Dreaming is one thing, lunacy is another.


"...many many decades to come." 

Two decades ago, some of the world's biggest sports marketing companies thought highly enough of the cricket marketplace in southern Ontario that they were willing to spend many millions of dollars to stage the Sahara Cup in Toronto. A series of one-day internationals featuring the full national teams of India and Pakistan safely engaging one another in a neutral site venue. 

A deterioration in political relations between the two nations brought the series to a halt after three years. But it was a clear indication that people with serious money thought enough of the area's viability to invest heavily in the game here. Interest in the sport hasn't diminished in the least.

My high school in North York once had senior and junior football teams. It has neither today, long disbanded due to lack of interest and participation. They dropped hockey not long ago, too.

But it fields both levels of cricket teams. 

The Toronto Star doesn't normally engage in promoting frivolous sporting ventures. Sure, they cast reasonable concerns, but the subject is worthy of their time and trouble:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/07/11/gta_cricket_fans_closer_to_domed_stadium.html


----------



## will101

flashman said:


> My high school in North York once had senior and junior football teams. It has neither today, long disbanded due to lack of interest and participation. They dropped hockey not long ago, too.
> 
> But it fields both levels of cricket teams.


My bet is those decisions have to do with the cost of insurance for the sports in question. Insurance for collision sports is more than 10 times the cost of non-collision sports.


----------



## GunnerJacket

That and the cost of operating a football team is pricey in terms of equipment, travel, coaching, etc.

Still, here's my $20 (US) that cricket will be but a shadow within the shadow of lacrosse in North America.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Scoreboard structure is up


----------



## flashman

will101 said:


> My bet is those decisions have to do with the cost of insurance for the sports in question. Insurance for collision sports is more than 10 times the cost of non-collision sports.


Bad bet. 

The demographics of the area have changed dramatically from my days when the area was predominantly Anglo Saxon. School is now predominantly populated by the children of immigrants from south Asia (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka), east Africa (Kenya, Ethiopia, Somalia) and the Caribbean.

They play rugby and lacrosse, both impact sports. And when the bowlers start chucking Yorkers or going bodyline, cricket can have some heavy impact as well.


----------



## isaidso

flashman said:


> "...many many decades to come."
> 
> Two decades ago, some of the world's biggest sports marketing companies thought highly enough of the cricket marketplace in southern Ontario that they were willing to spend many millions of dollars to stage the Sahara Cup in Toronto. A series of one-day internationals featuring the full national teams of India and Pakistan safely engaging one another in a neutral site venue.


A one off event is one thing, but spending (what some are now saying $1 billion) on a stadium you need to fill this thing many times each year to make it economically feasible. A successful Sahara Cup isn't nearly enough.

Btw, not everyone views the Star as a reputable rag. Compare it to the NYT and the difference in credibility and quality is considerable.


----------



## flashman

Who needs to fill this thing many times?

If it's a privately funded project, it can be as full or as empty as often or as little as the owners want. They can play dodgeball in there for all it matters.


----------



## will101

isaidso said:


> Hamilton's Tim Hortons Field getting ready for the Labour Day Classic against arch rival Toronto on Monday, September 1st. Lines are being painted. The Hamilton Tiger-Cats will have their practice at Tim Hortons Field tomorrow.
> 
> :banana:


I hope the stadium people and the grass people were on the same page.


----------



## GunnerJacket

Bossman1 said:


> What's going on in Calgary?
> Toronto's situation doesn't mean its going to end favourably. Even if they end up at the Ex, thats a leggo stadium also. It amazes me what the West is able to accomplish with stadiums compared to the east. I mean, look at the reno's at Commonwealth and BC place and the new constructs in Winnipeg and Regina. Then compare that to Leggo BMO and Leggo Tim's and Ottawa's Frank Clair - nuff said.


Are you referring to the toy building block? If you are it's just one "g" - Lego.

Don't want to disrespect the greatest toy of all time here!


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Bossman1 said:


> From the pic it doesn't look like the suites are done.


There are no suites on that side - that's an open concourse


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

From the practice today - elly63 posted this on SSP


----------



## ChesterCopperpot




----------



## Bossman1

isaidso said:


> They're just rumours at this point, but it's unlikely that the status quo in Calgary will be maintained for much longer. Toronto's situation couldn't be worse than the present at Skydome. BMO is 2nd rate, but MLS is a growing league and latching on to that bodes well for the Argonauts future.
> 
> What's up with the east? Simple. The west is the football heartland. The east gave the world football, but today it's a 2nd rate football market. The prairies are to football what the state of Victoria is to Aussie football. Both carry their respective sports. I do like what I see in Ottawa though.
> 
> *THF, Hamilton*


BMO Field is not a CFL stadium, its a soccer stadium, built for that purpose to hold a world tournament and final, along with a club team.
My point is that the west goes all in when investing in sport infrastructure.
In the east, its a half ass job, irrespective of which kind of football.

And to me it pathetic, that a team with 100+ years of tradition has to piggy back on a soccer team. They make demands and wishes, but are not willing to pony up any money - whether its the team or the league.
Personally I am more a world football fan than the pigskin variety. And if the Argos move into hat field I am done with TFC and will never watch another game again. I still think if MLSE is willing to fork over $120M for upgrades, they should find a piece of land and build a new stadium themselves just for soccer and let the city and Argos to themselves and let them run that stadium to the ground.
Toronto deserves better .. look at all these wonderful new MLS stadiums. Even with upgrades the stadium will be far inferior.


----------



## Bossman1

GunnerJacket said:


> Are you referring to the toy building block? If you are it's just one "g" - Lego.
> 
> Don't want to disrespect the greatest toy of all time here!


Noted sir and thanks


----------



## isaidso

Bossman1 said:


> BMO Field is not a CFL stadium, its a soccer stadium, built for that purpose to hold a world tournament and final, along with a club team.
> My point is that the west goes all in when investing in sport infrastructure.
> In the east, its a half ass job, irrespective of which kind of football.


I understand your point, but the discrepancy between east and west stadia is very much a result of football being a far more important sport in western Canada. If football were a big deal in Ontario/Quebec you can bet your bottom dollar that eastern CFL teams would be playing in far grander facilities. 

That BMO Field looks the way it does is a result of poor foresight in Toronto regarding where MLS was heading. It also showed a shocking lack of foresight that they built a stadium that couldn't easily be expanded/upgraded 5-10 years down the road if MLS and the Toronto franchise grew in popularity. People warned them right from the beginning that they were boxing themselves into a corner but they wouldn't listen.



Bossman1 said:


> Personally I am more a world football fan than the pigskin variety. And if the Argos move into hat field I am done with TFC and will never watch another game again. I still think if MLSE is willing to fork over $120M for upgrades, they should find a piece of land and build a new stadium themselves just for soccer and let the city and Argos to themselves and let them run that stadium to the ground.


Skydome was built with tax payers money for *the Jays and the Argonauts.* We wouldn't be in this position if Toronto politicians ensured both of these teams would remain at Skydome as a condition of the stadium's sale to Rogers. If you aren't willing to share BMO with the CFL that's your own prerogative, but speaks to the general animosity amongst Toronto soccer people towards the domestic culture.

The world's first documented football game was one played in Toronto. Even if one prefers soccer, that's something every Canadian should know and something we all should be proud of. That Torontonians have such a cavalier attitude to our own culture is astonishing. Brits might prefer other sports over cricket, but they still see cricket as a source of national pride.

Likewise, I don't care for hockey but still recognize it as one of Canada's great contributions to culture here and elsewhere. Football, baseball, basketball. These sports are no different in that regard. We may not follow them, but they're a part of our culture and should be celebrated not pushed aside.


----------



## isaidso

ChesterCopperpot said:


>


It's nice seeing the lines go in, but they sure have a lot of work to do ovver the next 4 days.


----------



## isaidso

ChesterCopperpot said:


>


It's nice seeing the lines go in, but they sure have a lot of work to do over the next 4 days. I still wish they would have made those stands on the right match the stands on the left. It would have made the whole thing look a whole lot better.


----------



## Calvin W

isaidso said:


> They're just rumours at this point, but it's unlikely that the status quo in Calgary will be maintained for much longer. Toronto's situation couldn't be worse than the present at Skydome. BMO is 2nd rate, but MLS is a growing league and latching on to that bodes well for the Argonauts future.
> 
> What's up with the east? Simple. The west is the football heartland. The east gave the world football, but today it's a 2nd rate football market. The prairies are to football what the state of Victoria is to Aussie football. Both carry their respective sports. I do like what I see in Ottawa though.


Read a bit more on AFL. Victoria is where the VFL was founded which eventually morphed into the AFL. Victoria does not carry the league by any means. 

There are 18 teams in the AFL the last 8 "new" teams have all be located outside the state of Victoria. Any new teams in the future will NOT be started in Victoria.

As for success the non Victorian teams outperform Victorian teams in memberships, revenue etc, in most cases. The league has grown to a national league and hopefully the CFL can do so as well.

Teams in QC, Maritimes, Vancouver Island, etc can only help to strengthen the CFL


----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> Read a bit more on AFL. Victoria is where the VFL was founded which eventually morphed into the AFL. Victoria does not carry the league by any means.
> 
> There are 18 teams in the AFL the last 8 "new" teams have all be located outside the state of Victoria. Any new teams in the future will NOT be started in Victoria.
> 
> As for success the non Victorian teams outperform Victorian teams in memberships, revenue etc, in most cases. The league has grown to a national league and hopefully the CFL can do so as well.
> 
> Teams in QC, Maritimes, Vancouver Island, etc can only help to strengthen the CFL


I'm pretty up on those aspects of the AFL actually, but agree with your sentiments regarding the CFL. The CFL will need to spring board off its strength in AB/SK/MB to those areas you mentioned. 

Ontario is a long term project, but even there some promising signs are emerging. It's very early on, but the Ottawa franchise is doing very well and the league suffers no image problem in that market. The RedBlacks are a big deal in Ottawa and all 4 home dates have sold out. They seem to have done everything right.


----------



## GunnerJacket

THF may be threadbare and small but I can't imagine it's such a disgrace as some are implying. The design is clean and simple and future expansion is easily possible, so while it's not a true peer of the best venues going it should ably do its job. Then if the community rallies around the team and prosperity suggests expansion they can use that as the opportunity to hone the building's character. Still has great potential, I say.


----------



## Cjones2451

New Scoreboard at THF courtesy of @Ticats

3400 Sq. Feet
I think they are also getting ready to mount the "Tim Hortons Field" sign on the top of it today or tomorrow


----------



## flashman

Blaze of Glory?

Good new for TiCats fans. A fire that gutted a mechanical room that controls air conditioning in private suites won't halt the Labor Day classic, says CBC:

_Even if the city grants an occupancy permit, Tim Hortons Field, which will eventually have permanent seating for 24,000 spectators, won’t be running at full capacity. Sections of the stands that will house around 6,000 seats will still be off-limits, the team says, and a number of VIP and entertainment areas won’t be ready either.

Tim Hortons Field was originally slated for a June 30 opening. But the surprisingly cold winter and problems with building subcontractors have resulted in delays._


----------



## Scba

Well, at least they're close


----------



## JYDA

isaidso said:


> The world's first documented football game was one played in Toronto.


This piece of brazen revisionist history just blows my mind no matter how much it's repeated and accepted. Look up the burnside rules change of 1903. Prior to this the game was rugby and was even called rugby played under rugby rules. 1903 was the REAL year that Canadian Football started. Forward pass wasn't even introduced in Canada until 1929 and even then they were STILL calling it rugby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnside_rules


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Tim Hortons Field got it's occupancy permit and is good to go for tomorrow's Labour Day Classic

Looking good the night before


----------



## Bossman1

ChesterCopperpot said:


> Tim Hortons Field got it's occupancy permit and is good to go for tomorrow's Labour Day Classic
> 
> Looking good the night before


So sad. Ahh what could have been.


----------



## Bossman1

isaidso said:


> That BMO Field looks the way it does is a result of poor foresight in Toronto regarding where MLS was heading. It also showed a shocking lack of foresight that they built a stadium that couldn't easily be expanded/upgraded 5-10 years down the road if MLS and the Toronto franchise grew in popularity. People warned them right from the beginning that they were boxing themselves into a corner but they wouldn't listen.


More of MLSE just wanting to line their pockets.
Its not even a question about being able to expand quickly. it more about the quality that was presented. All new MLS stadiums had roofs on them and the design for Red Bull arena and I think Houston and KC. They saw where stadium were headed in this continent, but MLSE didn't give a rats ass but their bank account and banking the revenues.




isaidso said:


> Skydome was built with tax payers money for *the Jays and the Argonauts.* We wouldn't be in this position if Toronto politicians ensured both of these teams would remain at Skydome as a condition of the stadium's sale to Rogers. If you aren't willing to share BMO with the CFL that's your own prerogative, but speaks to the general animosity amongst Toronto soccer people towards the domestic culture.
> 
> The world's first documented football game was one played in Toronto. Even if one prefers soccer, that's something every Canadian should know and something we all should be proud of. That Torontonians have such a cavalier attitude to our own culture is astonishing. Brits might prefer other sports over cricket, but they still see cricket as a source of national pride.
> 
> Likewise, I don't care for hockey but still recognize it as one of Canada's great contributions to culture here and elsewhere. Football, baseball, basketball. These sports are no different in that regard. We may not follow them, but they're a part of our culture and should be celebrated not pushed aside.


You're waay off. I quite actually love the pigskin variety. I go ti an Argo or Ticat game once a year, and I watch regularly over the season the CFL and NFL. I just like soccer more. I like pigskin more than basketball or baseball.
The point is pigskin and world football are incompatible. People think just because the 2 games are played on very similar sized fields, that some how they should play in the same stadium. This is not the case. There are just toooo many lines and numbers on the field for a soccer game to be played on it. And let not go into the destruction 300lb players do in the trenches and how that will just kill the field. The two just should not be in the same facility.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

*From Ticats.ca*


----------



## isaidso

JYDA said:


> This piece of brazen revisionist history just blows my mind no matter how much it's repeated and accepted. Look up the burnside rules change of 1903. Prior to this the game was rugby and was even called rugby played under rugby rules. 1903 was the REAL year that Canadian Football started. Forward pass wasn't even introduced in Canada until 1929 and even then they were STILL calling it rugby.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnside_rules


Football did indeed morph out of rugby, but had moved away from pure rugby long before you're suggesting; regardless of what it was called. The game continued to change (1861 onward) on a continuous basis, but that doesn't mean one needs to continually move the date every time a new development occurs. The game is still changing today.

Football grew out of the colleges of central Canada while some look to the McGill - Harvard series in 1874 as the dawn of modern football. Btw, even in 1874 it was called rugby-football, but it wasn't rugby despite the word rugby being used to describe it.

If you must though, take it up with the CFL not me. There are lots of people that look to that 1861 game besides myself.


----------



## isaidso

GunnerJacket said:


> THF may be threadbare and small but I can't imagine it's such a disgrace as some are implying. The design is clean and simple and future expansion is easily possible, so while it's not a true peer of the best venues going it should ably do its job. Then if the community rallies around the team and prosperity suggests expansion they can use that as the opportunity to hone the building's character. Still has great potential, I say.


A lot of the disappointment lies it heightened expectations after IGF in Winnipeg, the $500 million renovation of BC Place, and plans in Regina and Ottawa. The league is on the upswing and the optics were that this was a step backwards rather than one that matched what was being done elsewhere.

As others have mentioned, the 3 tier stands look much better than the 2 tier stands on the other side. Cost was certainly at the root of their decision not to duplicate the 3 tier on the other side, but it just didn't look all that good on television. What the league looks like on television does matter. 

Of course this is much better than Ivor Wynne, but I don't think that's a good benchmark of success.


----------



## will101

Official attendance at THF yesterday was 18,135. What is the capacity?


----------



## Cjones2451

will101 said:


> Official attendance at THF yesterday was 18,135. What is the capacity?


When it is completed, about 24,000, but it was capped at 18,135 because the upper west stands and suites were not done yet


----------



## RMB2007

105872314


----------



## Zack Fair

^^ Few thoughts:

Those logos on the turf are awful. Take them out of those white boxes. 
Where is the REDBLACKS logo? 
Why the end-zone aren't painted?


----------



## Cjones2451

Zack Fair said:


> ^^ Few thoughts:
> 
> Those logos on the turf are awful. Take them out of those white boxes.
> Where is the REDBLACKS logo?
> Why the end-zone aren't painted?


It is shared with the Ottawa Fury NASL team, so that would be a hell of a lot of work to scrub the paint in the end zones as well as the lines and logos


----------



## Zack Fair

Cjones2451 said:


> It is shared with the Ottawa Fury NASL team, so that would be a hell of a lot of work to scrub the paint in the end zones as well as the lines and logos


Meh. Another reason why I hate multipurpose stadium. Tim Horton Field doesn't have the end zones painted as well. It's so uninspiring and soulsucking.


----------



## isaidso

Edmonton's new NHL arena.











Courtesy of Airboy


----------



## isaidso

Milton, Ontario's new Pan American Games velodrome.


















Source unknown.


----------



## isaidso

Zack Fair said:


> Meh. Another reason why I hate multipurpose stadium. Tim Horton Field doesn't have the end zones painted as well. It's so uninspiring and soulsucking.


Agree. Branding is very important and the lack of logos/banners takes away tremendously from the atmosphere. It makes the event feel like a temporary one that just blew in for the day. Branding has always been the CFL's achilles' heel and continues to be. 

I bet when Mosaic opens, you'll know exactly who plays there even when its empty. Skydome is the absolute worst when it comes to this. In late August there are thousands of tourists outside at the base of the CN Tower and I bet most of them think the Blue Jays and Bills play there. They'd be shocked if you told them that the primary football tenant is the Argonauts. (Rogers took the Argonauts branding down years ago because they don't want to promote that team.)


----------



## Calvin W

Disagree. Keep the field clean and pristine, bugger the logo's and ads plastered all over these days. For the sake of a few corporate dollars in ads keep it clean.


----------



## RMB2007

isaidso said:


> Milton, Ontario's new Pan American Games velodrome.


Some other images of the cake tin velodrome. From @cdncyclist:




























https://twitter.com/cdncyclist


----------



## mvcg66b3r

RMB2007 said:


> Some other images of the cake tin hat box velodrome.


Fixed.


----------



## isaidso

^^ You have to admit they didn't try at all. It's functional, but not much else.



Calvin W said:


> Disagree. Keep the field clean and pristine, bugger the logo's and ads plastered all over these days. For the sake of a few corporate dollars in ads keep it clean.


I'm not talking about corporate logos; I'd rather not have those anywhere. I'm talking about the team logo plastered in the end zone and its banners on the outside of the stadium, the concourses, etc. If you stand outside Skydome there are Jays banners galore and even Bills banners. Argonauts banners? Nope. There's not a clue to be found when standing outside the stadium that the Argonauts play there.


----------



## flashman

Why spend money on banners at a stadium when the Argos don't attract many fans anyway? Those banners aren't going to make a whit of difference. Just like being propped up artificially by TSN and The Sun hasn't moved the needle either.

The CFL needs the corporate logos 'cause they need the money. On the field, on the uniforms. It's like watching hockey in Finland - a busy mess. Same issue would recur if they were to move to BMO Field with it's un-logoable grass playing surface and red, TFC-branded seats.

When you read the interview with David Braley in the Star, it's clear he has more than enough financial resources for the Argos to execute their own sort of banner campaign across the city, the way the Mirvishes do when they are promoting one of their theatre productions, or the Rogers tennis or Honda Indy people do each year. 

It's simply throwing good money after bad. And Braley knows it. The interview concludes with the suggestion that the Boatmen have six months remaining of life support in Toronto.


----------



## DrillingForOil

Some quick questions because I am honestly unsure, but has TFC ever made money? Are they honestly expecting to make money? Has Mccown ever addressed the issue of a TFC tv audience of 14,000?

If a Grey Cup is hosted at BMO, would the money it makes not justify the expansion? To me I think there is huge potential for the Argos, it just needs the right home.


----------



## carnifex2005

DrillingForOil said:


> Some quick questions because I am honestly unsure, but has TFC ever made money? Are they honestly expecting to make money? Has Mccown ever addressed the issue of a TFC tv audience of 14,000?
> 
> If a Grey Cup is hosted at BMO, would the money it makes not justify the expansion? To me I think there is huge potential for the Argos, it just needs the right home.


TFC has probably made money every single year of its existence. MLSE stated they wouldn't sell TFC for $100 million.


----------



## ielag

carnifex2005 said:


> TFC has probably made money every single year of its existence. MLSE stated they wouldn't sell TFC for $100 million.


But if you listen to nearly every sports owner ever, no sports team ever turns a profit :lol:


----------



## flashman

DrillingForOil said:


> Some quick questions because I am honestly unsure, but has TFC ever made money? Are they honestly expecting to make money? Has Mccown ever addressed the issue of a TFC tv audience of 14,000?
> 
> If a Grey Cup is hosted at BMO, would the money it makes not justify the expansion? To me I think there is huge potential for the Argos, it just needs the right home.


Here's the 'huge potential' every pro-Argo advocate points toward - the 'success' of the Montreal Alouettes at historic Percival Molson Stadium, hard by the charming campus of McGill University.

The Als moved there by fluke when the Olympic Stadium wasn't available. To their surprise, there was a positive response to the aesthetics of playing in a smaller venue. Little by little, they've built up Molson Stadium to a current capacity of around 25,000. The common perception is that because it looks good on TV, they're doing great business-wise.

They've never sold the place out. And their owner, Robert Wettenhall, has been consistent in stating over the years that the team has NEVER made a profit.

Now, maybe it behooves Wettenhall to cook the books for tax purposes. Maybe it serves some unstated purpose that he keeps real profit and financial success hidden.

But the Canadian Football League is dying to publish some sort of sustained success story in its eastern conference because it's marketing appeal is withering. It certainly doesn't serve the league's purpose to have the Alouettes understate their success. We have to assume that Wettenhall is telling the truth.

So, maybe if the Argos were to move to BMO Field and pare their annual losses to something on the order of $1-3 million instead of $6-7 million, then they could trumpet that as a 'success'. Only problem is finding a new owner who wants to work with that on the heels of almost 50 years of sustained annual financial losses.

As for a Grey Cup at BMO Field? The last one here in 2012 made money on the back of some hefty government subsidies. The hometown Argos, after a disheartening 9-9 regular season, contrived to win the thing. You'd have thought that would have solidified their place in the Toronto sports market. Hardly. Currently, they can scarcely boast 4,000 season ticket holders. Hardly the circumstances one would proceed to begin an extensive and expensive renovation of a middling soccer stadium.

First you have to get the stadium re-done to accommodate the massive CFL playing surface. They need to add at least 30 yards of length to the playing surface and build in new retractable stands. That's an expense in the tens of millions that many are suggesting - and numbers support them - as simply not justifiable. If you're MLSE, you have to worry just how much longer you can piss off your soccer fans and adding a stadium share with a CFL team that is going to chew up the playing surface is the quickest way to lose fans.

Secondly, why would you put on a football final in the dead of winter in a small outdoor stadium when a larger, indoor, more comfortable and proven venue is already available? The Rogers Centre has comfortably hosted past Grey Cups and is much closer to the downtown hotels, bars and restaurants. It may not be available to host the Argos during regular season CFL play, but you can be sure it would be available for an event like a Grey Cup. It can be accessed easily via subway and streetcar or comfortably walked to it as it sits amidst the downtown core. BMO Field is a ways out on the west side of town, requiring a ride via streetcar or bus, but is not on the subway lines.

As for TFC, they routinely post profits in the low millions. 

This year will be an exception - in the short term - because of the money spent to lure top stars from Europe - Michael Bradley from Roma of Italy, and Jermain Defoe from Tottenham Hotspur of London. Defoe's deal will be cut short because he is receiving lucrative offers to return to England and resume playing in the Premier League. It is like a former NHL hockey pro choosing to play in Switzerland's very nice league, then receiving offers to return to the NHL. Almost impossible to resist. TFC stand to make a profit on Defoe when they sell his contract at the end of this season.


----------



## will101

*Tim Hortons Field delay was because of engineering mistake, union officials say*

From The Globe and Mail:


> David Shoalts
> 
> TORONTO — The Globe and Mail
> 
> The real reason the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ $145.7-million stadium is three months late is because of a major engineering miscalculation, according to two union officials.
> 
> Tim Hortons Field, which replaced aging Ivor Wynne Stadium and will also play host to the soccer competition for the 2015 Pan American Games, was not designed to support a capacity 24,000 crowd, say Tony DiMaria, business manager of the Brick and Allied Craft Union Local 1 in Hamilton and James Hannah, business manager of Ironworkers Hamilton Local 736.
> 
> The resulting work to fix the mistake plus poor construction scheduling by the builder, Ontario Sports Solutions (ONSS), meant increased labour, design and materials costs along with the delay. No one connected to the project would say how much this will cost, but officials with the City of Hamilton and Infrastructure Ontario, which oversees major construction projects for the province, say ONSS, not the taxpayers, must pay for it.
> 
> “All I can say is we’re clean as far as the city is concerned,” Hamilton Mayor Bob Bratina said.
> 
> Officials with ONSS, a consortium led by Bouygues Building Canada, a French company, and Kenaidan Contracting Ltd. of Mississauga, have blamed the delay on a severe winter, a masonry subcontractor going into receivership and, at one point, the length of time it takes to get building permits from the city.
> 
> “Somebody screwed up but are they going to admit it? No,” DiMaria said, referring to the fact deciding the responsibility for any cost overruns will likely end up in court.
> 
> DiMaria and Hannah said the design mistake was discovered shortly after the ironworkers started work on the stadium last October. As a result, the structural steel, which is the framework of the stadium, had to be redesigned. Then new steel had to be fabricated and ordered.
> 
> Angle iron, called clips, had to be welded on the existing steel as reinforcement in many areas, contributing to the delay. Some concrete foundations also had to be torn out and repoured. This had a domino effect in delaying subsequent work such as the masonry, electrical and duct work.
> 
> Only a rush of last-minute work allowed part of the stadium to open Sept. 2 for a Tiger-Cats game against the Toronto Argonauts. It will not be substantially finished until Oct. 2.
> 
> Hannah said in conversations he had with union workers and others on the job site, he was told “they didn’t allow for sway.”
> 
> “Say you get the wave going and people are moving at once – they are going to sway,” Hannah said, adding that under the original design there were concerns this kind of motion under the weight of 24,000 spectators would render the structure unsafe.
> 
> The city of Hamilton contributed $54.3-million to the $145.7-million cost of the stadium. In return it takes over as owner of Tim Hortons Field. The rest of the financing came from the provincial government, which paid $22.3-million, and the federal government ($69.1-million), as the stadium will play host to the 2015 Pan Am Games soccer competition. Infrastructure Ontario is withholding $89-million in payments from ONSS until the stadium is finished.
> 
> However, under its lease with the Ticats, the city is also responsible for paying the team $3-million in compensation for the three missed home games. City officials have indicated they plan to recover that money from ONSS or Infrastructure Ontario and go through the courts if necessary.
> 
> That is probably why ONSS officials were insisting the delays were for reasons beyond their control. Infrastructure Ontario vice-president John McKendrick, who oversees Tim Hortons Field plus two other Pan Am projects built by ONSS, dismissed those claims.
> 
> “Those are all risks Ontario Sports Solutions has to take,” McKendrick said. “The [construction] schedule was always aggressive, but they signed up for it, they agreed to it. It’s their responsibility to manage their subtrades, it’s their responsibility to manage the design-build process, it’s their responsibility to manage the fabrication of their steel. If you miss your dates after that, don’t come to me and complain because it’s not my problem, it’s theirs.”
> 
> All three of ONSS’s Pan Am projects are behind schedule and still not finished. The consortium is also building the $56-million velodrome in Milton, Ont., and a $53-million athletics stadium at York University in Toronto for a total of $254.7-million. The velodrome and the York stadium were both overbudget at a total of $13.5-million so far.
> 
> Bouygues projects director Samuel Gandossi did not respond to requests for comment. Greg Stack, vice-president of business development for Kenaidan and the lead official for ONSS, declined to comment. He referred questions to Infrastructure Ontario.


The entire article is here.


----------



## DrillingForOil

flashman said:


> Here's the 'huge potential' every pro-Argo advocate points toward - the 'success' of the Montreal Alouettes at historic Percival Molson Stadium, hard by the charming campus of McGill University.
> 
> The Als moved there by fluke when the Olympic Stadium wasn't available. To their surprise, there was a positive response to the aesthetics of playing in a smaller venue. Little by little, they've built up Molson Stadium to a current capacity of around 25,000. The common perception is that because it looks good on TV, they're doing great business-wise.
> 
> They've never sold the place out. And their owner, Robert Wettenhall, has been consistent in stating over the years that the team has NEVER made a profit.
> 
> Now, maybe it behooves Wettenhall to cook the books for tax purposes. Maybe it serves some unstated purpose that he keeps real profit and financial success hidden.
> 
> But the Canadian Football League is dying to publish some sort of sustained success story in its eastern conference because it's marketing appeal is withering. It certainly doesn't serve the league's purpose to have the Alouettes understate their success. We have to assume that Wettenhall is telling the truth.
> 
> So, maybe if the Argos were to move to BMO Field and pare their annual losses to something on the order of $1-3 million instead of $6-7 million, then they could trumpet that as a 'success'. Only problem is finding a new owner who wants to work with that on the heels of almost 50 years of sustained annual financial losses.
> 
> As for a Grey Cup at BMO Field? The last one here in 2012 made money on the back of some hefty government subsidies. The hometown Argos, after a disheartening 9-9 regular season, contrived to win the thing. You'd have thought that would have solidified their place in the Toronto sports market. Hardly. Currently, they can scarcely boast 4,000 season ticket holders. Hardly the circumstances one would proceed to begin an extensive and expensive renovation of a middling soccer stadium.
> 
> First you have to get the stadium re-done to accommodate the massive CFL playing surface. They need to add at least 30 yards of length to the playing surface and build in new retractable stands. That's an expense in the tens of millions that many are suggesting - and numbers support them - as simply not justifiable. If you're MLSE, you have to worry just how much longer you can piss off your soccer fans and adding a stadium share with a CFL team that is going to chew up the playing surface is the quickest way to lose fans.
> 
> Secondly, why would you put on a football final in the dead of winter in a small outdoor stadium when a larger, indoor, more comfortable and proven venue is already available? The Rogers Centre has comfortably hosted past Grey Cups and is much closer to the downtown hotels, bars and restaurants. It may not be available to host the Argos during regular season CFL play, but you can be sure it would be available for an event like a Grey Cup. It can be accessed easily via subway and streetcar or comfortably walked to it as it sits amidst the downtown core. BMO Field is a ways out on the west side of town, requiring a ride via streetcar or bus, but is not on the subway lines.
> 
> As for TFC, they routinely post profits in the low millions.
> 
> This year will be an exception - in the short term - because of the money spent to lure top stars from Europe - Michael Bradley from Roma of Italy, and Jermain Defoe from Tottenham Hotspur of London. Defoe's deal will be cut short because he is receiving lucrative offers to return to England and resume playing in the Premier League. It is like a former NHL hockey pro choosing to play in Switzerland's very nice league, then receiving offers to return to the NHL. Almost impossible to resist. TFC stand to make a profit on Defoe when they sell his contract at the end of this season.


Not sure where you get information from of the Alouettes losing money, but from these articles 6 of the teams either broke even or made profit. The exceptions being Hamilton and Toronto. Now that Hamilton has a new stadium I could hope to assume they'll be in the black soon too.

http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/2593539-argos-tiger-cats-only-cfl-teams-losing-money/

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/cfl/cfl-boasts-6-healthy-franchises-says-commissioner-1.1201438

With these articles coming from before the new TV deal, I could also assume the profits will increase, which would now include another franchise as well.

The Alouettes have in fact sold out Molson Stadium. 2010 is when it first opened with expanded capacity, and regularly sold out. Since then however you are correct and hasn't sold out since, but have been 90% sold, with the exception of this year at an average of 80%. This year the Als have been absolutely terrible, which can easily explain the reason for the decrease, but the tv deal I would assume would more than make up the attendance drop.... Correct me if I am wrong.

http://stats.cfldb.ca/team/montreal-alouettes/attendance/2011/

I am trying to find various profits from Grey Cup's past, but will point to last year records profit to the Riders of $10.4 million. Obviously it is the Riders, but with their subpar stadium and small city, I would hope there would be huge potential for bigger cities to cash in on this event. Even if it is half that of 2012.

I think you are right though, when the Grey Cup is to go to T.O. It would make sense to pack 55,000 in to the dome, much like that of Montreal. Though as proven last year (in the dead of winter on the prairies) it can turn into one heck of a party.

I was looking for a source that shows TFC's profits. I did read that this year they are guaranteed to lose, like you said due to the huge contracts. I try to work out the economics of how TFC is worth $100million, simply based off of the mediocre tv audience. Hopefully it can be explained in some detail.


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

Forbes value them at $121million. They are the 5th most valuable team in MLS

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45efhfi/5-toronto-fc/


----------



## Guest

DrillingForOil said:


> I was looking for a source that shows TFC's profits.


A quick Google search would do wonders for you.


----------



## DrillingForOil

5portsF4n said:


> A quick Google search would do wonders for you.


Lol... I did a quick google search but couldn't find a breakdown of their profits...

Something like this of the Eskimos...

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/c...-attendance-operating-revenues-234951398.html

No need to get smart. When I read they are worth $120 million, I wonder what makes them that valuable when tv audiences are 14,000 20,000 80,000 and a season high of 300,000+... Does gate revenue / concessions/ jersey sales bring in that cash? What do sponsors pay? 

Thanks


----------



## ChesterCopperpot

And you wont find a breakdown for them. MLSE is a private corporation and never reveals financial results.


----------



## Guest

For one, their shirt sponsor pays $4m a year. That alone would almost pay the entire salary cap for the Argos.


----------



## DrillingForOil

5portsF4n said:


> For one, their shirt sponsor pays $4m a year. That alone would almost pay the entire salary cap for the Argos.


 It would just about, I suppose that $4 million in jersey sponsor would cover the TFC "cap" as well, not including the designated players.

QUOTE="ChesterCopperpot;117515260"]And you wont find a breakdown for them. MLSE is a private corporation and never reveals financial results.[/QUOTE]

I wonder about that though because Rogers and Bell are publicly traded?

Anyway back to stadium topic, to me it only makes sense to refurbish BMO for the Argos, with over a billion dollars in the past few years spent on new stadiums and upgrades across the league, and still have 3/4 of teams post profits. That is where I see the potential for the Argo's. There are plans in place to mitigate the issue of the large end zone for TFC... The opportunity exists for the Argos to compete within the T.O sports scene with a move to BMO


----------



## isaidso

flashman said:


> Why spend money on banners at a stadium when the Argos don't attract many fans anyway?.....


Someone never went to business school. The banners were *taken down* and someone has to be beyond naive to think it was done to save Rogers money. :nuts:


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## isaidso

Edit.


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## isaidso

DrillingForOil said:


> Anyway back to stadium topic, to me it only makes sense to refurbish BMO for the Argos, with over a billion dollars in the past few years spent on new stadiums and upgrades across the league, and still have 3/4 of teams post profits. That is where I see the potential for the Argo's. There are plans in place to mitigate the issue of the large end zone for TFC... The opportunity exists for the Argos to compete within the T.O sports scene with a move to BMO


The sport of football has fallen about as far as it can go in the Toronto market (Rogers has made sure of that). Toronto's football team really has nowhere to go but up from the 18,000/game it presently gets. Therein lies the value in the team. In the right corporate hands, the franchise has lots of upside and very little downside. In layman's terms, it's a low risk investment. 

The Argos will end up in a new stadium within the next few years. Once that headache is resolved they can finally start building themselves back up free of a hostile landlord. Maybe 10-15 years from now Toronto can build itself into a football market on par with Calgary or Ottawa. Of our 9 pro football markets, Toronto is currently dead last. It speaks volumes that Quebec City gets as many people out for football as Toronto and they don't even have a pro team.


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## isaidso

*Canada's Future Shrine to Football in Regina: Sept 14, 2014*


















Courtesy of Migs


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## flashman

DrillingForOil said:


> It would just about, I suppose that $4 million in jersey sponsor would cover the TFC "cap" as well, not including the designated players.
> 
> QUOTE="ChesterCopperpot;117515260"]And you wont find a breakdown for them. MLSE is a private corporation and never reveals financial results.
> 
> I wonder about that though because Rogers and Bell are publicly traded?
> 
> Anyway back to stadium topic, to me it only makes sense to refurbish BMO for the Argos, with over a billion dollars in the past few years spent on new stadiums and upgrades across the league, and still have 3/4 of teams post profits. That is where I see the potential for the Argo's. There are plans in place to mitigate the issue of the large end zone for TFC... The opportunity exists for the Argos to compete within the T.O sports scene with a move to BMO


Explain to me who exactly is going to pay the many millions of dollars for all this work to yet again subsidize a team that has lost money practically every year over the past half century? 

Argo owner David Braley is a very wealthy man with a long-term commitment to the CFL. He's not spending the money. He wants rid of the Argos and can't even give away the team. 

If you want to understand why TFC are much more valuable and desirable a sports entity than the Argos, take a drive through Toronto - Scarborough, East York, The Beaches, York, North York and Etobicoke and out into the suburbs of Vaughan, Mississauga, Pickering and Ajax - any weeknight after supper and look at what's being played by kids in the overwhelming majority of parks.

It's soccer. 

Go to a TFC game and compare the demographics of those in attendance with the much older, less diverse crowd that attend Argos games.

Anyone with advertising or sponsorship money to spend on sport knows what the smart choice is moving forward.


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## isaidso

flashman said:


> Explain to me who exactly is going to pay the many millions of dollars for all this work to yet again subsidize a team that has lost money practically every year over the past half century?


Honestly, the amount of things you say that have no basis in fact is astounding. As recently as 1976 the Argonauts were pulling in 47,000/game. The wheels didn't start to come off till 1983 and it was a number of years till they fell far enough that they went into the red. Practically every year over the last 50 years? You do the math. 

We know you'd like nothing better than for this franchise to go belly up and you're the last person Toronto can count on to help resuscitate this irreplaceable part of our cultural heritage, but at least get your facts straight.

The only thing in your post that's factual is that Toronto isn't a football town any more. It's hockey, soccer... and increasingly basketball. Getting football to work in Toronto is like trying to get hockey to work in Los Angeles. The sport likely won't climb to centre stage, but the city is big enough that it can sustain a team if things are managed astutely.


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## DrillingForOil

flashman said:


> Explain to me who exactly is going to pay the many millions of dollars for all this work to yet again subsidize a team that has lost money practically every year over the past half century? Argo owner David Braley is a very wealthy man with a long-term commitment to the CFL. He's not spending the money. He wants rid of the Argos and can't even give away the team. If you want to understand why TFC are much more valuable and desirable a sports entity than the Argos, take a drive through Toronto - Scarborough, East York, The Beaches, York, North York and Etobicoke and out into the suburbs of Vaughan, Mississauga, Pickering and Ajax - any weeknight after supper and look at what's being played by kids in the overwhelming majority of parks. It's soccer. Go to a TFC game and compare the demographics of those in attendance with the much older, less diverse crowd that attend Argos games. Anyone with advertising or sponsorship money to spend on sport knows what the smart choice is moving forward.


 The same people that have/are subsidizing tfc will subsidize the cost for the upgrades for the Argos... The government. Don't forget that the city paid for the BMO stadium which TFC occupy. And why shouldn't the government approve the upgrade to include the Argos? They currently take in profit for the amount home games TFC host, they will rake in even more profit when the Argos host 9 more home games plus playoffs... That should be a no brainer.

You're right, Braley is a wealthy man... He didn't get that way by giving away assets... He negotiates the price to what he believes his assets are worth.

How do you quantify what the TFC are worth by observing kids play soccer? If that is in fact a way to measure the teams worth, you should believe that there would be a soccer franchise located in every major city in Canada. Do you suggest more kids/people play soccer than hockey? And if so, by your logic, would TFC not be worth considerably more? Around the value of an NHL. 

I am not necessarily suggesting TFC is not worth $120 million, and I am certainly not saying the Argos are worth more than TFC, I am justtrying to find out how they are worth that when I see tv ratings of 14,000, especially when they are in the middle of a playoff race.

I see demographics of all ages at Argo games, much like TFC.


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## Cjones2451

will101 said:


> ^^ If they really wanted a 'European' feel, they should have all four sides designed by four different groups.


Then they could have made it look like this, sold the naming rights to General Mills and called it "Frankenstadium"


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## will101

Cjones2451 said:


> Then they could have made it look like this, sold the naming rights to General Mills and called it "Frankenstadium"


That's exactly the place I was thinking of. *Maine Road*, I believe?


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## Cjones2451

will101 said:


> That's exactly the place I was thinking of. *Maine Road*, I believe?


Yup, the poster child for European Stadiums that were built years ago and added upon over and over again


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## RMB2007

Please keep all BMO Field, the new stadium in Regina and Edmonton's new arena in their specific threads, with this thread being for stadiums and arenas that don't meet the capacity requirements for their own thread. Thanks.


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## Calvin W

ChesterCopperpot said:


> Only problem there is that York University own the stadium. And there's no room for 20,000 seats there.


Can you post the location? Looks like a bit of space from the photos I've seen.


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## flashman

ChesterCopperpot said:


> Only problem there is that York University own the stadium. And there's no room for 20,000 seats there.


York U was a potential site for the stadium when the Argos were owned by David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski. If it made economic sense it's reasonable to assume the school would be receptive. They make good money hosting and renting out the many ice surfaces at the York Ice Gardens. Put a football-first stadium there and you'd see the facility being booked for showcase high school games from within Toronto and Vaughn region which begins across Steeles Ave., a few hundred yards north of the stadium site. York U's CIS football team could also play there and it could host a number of other university sports events.

They must also receive rent from the people who own/operate the Rexall tennis centre.

The actual footprint of stadium land can be grown if necessary. As it is, they could build over the track with temporary or retractable seating. It's quite possible to get 20,00 or more on that site.


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## flashman

Calvin W said:


> Can you post the location? Looks like a bit of space from the photos I've seen.


https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7732575,-79.5102869,16z?hl=en


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## will101

Calvin W said:


> Can you post the location? Looks like a bit of space from the photos I've seen.


The new track stadium is at N 43 46.54 W 79 30.39. The square building with the "X" in it just to the south is apparently history. The axis of the track runs NNW to SSE, and the site for the venue talks about how the Boyer Woodlot will be just behind the grandstands along the back straight of the track. It also mentions that there is no room for public parking, so everyone attending the Commonwealth Games there has to take mass transit, ride a bike or walk. I would guess that the same restrictions would be in place for Argos games.


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## Calvin W

will101 said:


> The new track stadium is at N 43 46.54 W 79 30.39. The square building with the "X" in it just to the south is apparently history. The axis of the track runs NNW to SSE, and the site for the venue talks about how the Boyer Woodlot will be just behind the grandstands along the back straight of the track. It also mentions that there is no room for public parking, so everyone attending the Commonwealth Games there has to take mass transit, ride a bike or walk. I would guess that the same restrictions would be in place for Argos games.


Still looks like plenty of room for a 20,000 seat stadium or more.

As for parking, it's a university campus, lots of pay parking should be available especially on a weekend.


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## mvcg66b3r

will101 said:


> The new track stadium is at N 43 46.54 W 79 30.39. The square building with the "X" in it just to the south is apparently history. The axis of the track runs NNW to SSE, and the site for the venue talks about how the Boyer Woodlot will be just behind the grandstands along the back straight of the track. It also mentions that there is no room for public parking, so everyone attending the *Pan Am Games* there has to take mass transit, ride a bike or walk. I would guess that the same restrictions would be in place for Argos games.


Fixed.


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## ChesterCopperpot

Calvin W said:


> Still looks like plenty of room for a 20,000 seat stadium or more.


The stadium is being built in this area outlined in red within the existing road structure










I've taken the site footprint of Tim Hortons Field (you'd want to Argos to have at least the same size stadium as that) and laid it over the general area of the track stadium


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## ChesterCopperpot

Now if you want to put it where the current football stadium is - then that's easily done. The parking lot to the east of this picture is where the new Pioneer Village subway station is.


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## GarfieldPark

Toronto doesn't support the Argonauts because Toronto is very much a world class, major league city. If they could get an NFL club to play there, I have no doubt they would support it. They want to play in the league with teams from New York, Boston, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, etc - not small cities / provinces like Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and Hamilton. The people of Toronto want to be in one of the most important, largest, powerful sports leagues in the world (NFL) and don't really care about the CFL which they know, despite its importance in Canada, isn't a real big deal. Its not that difficult to understand.


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## Zack Fair

GarfieldPark said:


> Toronto doesn't support the Argonauts because Toronto is very much a world class, major league city. If they could get an NFL club to play there, I have no doubt they would support it. They want to play in the league with teams from New York, Boston, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, etc - not small cities / provinces like Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and Hamilton. The people of Toronto want to be in one of the most important, largest, powerful sports leagues in the world (NFL) and don't really care about the CFL which they know, despite its importance in Canada, isn't a real big deal. Its not that difficult to understand.


My thoughts exactly. Despite all, we must admit the CFL doesn't have the same international presence as the NFL. Toronto want to play with the bigger names, compete for the biggest trophy.


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## will101

ChesterCopperpot said:


>


But in this image the field is being laid out up-down, not left-right as you have it.


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## will101

Zack Fair said:


> My thoughts exactly. Despite all, we must admit the CFL doesn't have the same international presence as the NFL. Toronto want to play with the bigger names, compete for the biggest trophy.


But it won't happen. The NFL has agreed to never infringe upon the CFL's territory. So the fans in Toronto have the choice of attending Argos games close by, or making the long trek to Buffalo.


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## ChesterCopperpot

will101 said:


> But in this image the field is being laid out up-down, not left-right as you have it.


It doesn't really matter - the footprint (stadium boundaries) of the old Ivor Wynne stadium is the exact same size as the new Tim Hortons Field


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## koolio

ChesterCopperpot said:


> It doesn't really matter - the footprint (stadium boundaries) of the old Ivor Wynne stadium is the exact same size as the new Tim Hortons Field


Ok ... but I thought we were talking about the York University stadium?


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## ChesterCopperpot

I was just illustrating the fact that it's pretty much impossible to put a 20,000 seat CFL stadium in the location where they are building the York track stadium


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## Zack Fair

will101 said:


> But it won't happen. The NFL has agreed to never infringe upon the CFL's territory. So the fans in Toronto have the choice of attending Argos games close by, or making the long trek to Buffalo.


It won't happen in the near future, yes, but I can't predict anything 20 years from now. We'll see. 

My vision for the CFL would be that they could get more money from revenues/TV rights, build better and bigger stadiums, an expansion in new market (a 15 teams league would be awesome, maybe they should try to get some universities involved), better marketing (what the hell is a REDBLACK?), and stop with that "this is OUR league", it's sounds so snob and pretentious.


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## Calvin W

ChesterCopperpot said:


> I was just illustrating the fact that it's pretty much impossible to put a 20,000 seat CFL stadium in the location where they are building the York track stadium


Correction, nothing is impossible if you want it bad enough. Yes the current situation makes it very tight but still doable.


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## Cjones2451

Zack Fair said:


> It won't happen in the near future, yes, but I can't predict anything 20 years from now. We'll see.
> 
> My vision for the CFL would be that they could get more money from revenues/TV rights, build better and bigger stadiums, an expansion in new market (a 15 teams league would be awesome, maybe they should try to get some universities involved), better marketing (what the hell is a REDBLACK?), and stop with that "this is OUR league", it's sounds so snob and pretentious.


this is OUR league sounds pretentious, but saying.....

Toronto doesn't support the Argonauts because Toronto is very much a world class, major league city. If they could get an NFL club to play there, I have no doubt they would support it. They want to play in the league with teams from New York, Boston, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, etc - not small cities / provinces like Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and Hamilton. The people of Toronto want to be in one of the most important, largest, powerful sports leagues in the world (NFL) and don't really care about the CFL which they know, despite its importance in Canada, isn't a real big deal. Its not that difficult to understand.

That is the most pretentious thing I have every heard on ths forum....Last time I checked Toronto is part of Canada, which includes Winnipeg, Saskatchewan and Hamilton. If Toronto has "outgrown" Canada, they should join the US, or better yet form their own country, so they truly can be the center of their own world.


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## DrillingForOil

GarfieldPark said:


> Toronto doesn't support the Argonauts because Toronto is very much a world class, major league city. If they could get an NFL club to play there, I have no doubt they would support it. They want to play in the league with teams from New York, Boston, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, etc - not small cities / provinces like Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and Hamilton. The people of Toronto want to be in one of the most important, largest, powerful sports leagues in the world (NFL) and don't really care about the CFL which they know, despite its importance in Canada, isn't a real big deal. Its not that difficult to understand.


Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary... World class cities I which have hosted Olympic Games. Toronto believes they are above what Canada already has to offer? They got the NFL, but have demonstrated time and time again that they don't want the NFL... The Bills in Toronto series was as bad as it could have been. Truthfully the only thing that T.O has going for them in obtaining an NFL franchise is their metro population. What they don't have is a willing owner who is willing to risk to privately finance an NFL specific stadium, especially after how T.O responded to the Bills series.

The Skydome is more of a Skytomb. It's not a fan friendly stadium to watch football. It's a baseball specific stadium. The TFC would not exist today if they had to play I the Skytomb, imagine that atmosphere.


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## Zack Fair

The series was universally reviled by the Bills fans, the players didn't wanted to play here, the whole atmosphere was just bad and the attendance awful, no one in Toronto really had an interest to pay to watch the Bills loosing every time. 

The Bills series is a joke because nobody want to see the worst football team in the worst football stadium when it's not even YOUR home team. I hope they don't renew it.


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## isaidso

^^ More and more I'm convinced that the real problem is that Toronto is increasingly a soccer and basketball town. Football is in free fall, not just the Canadian variety. You need grass roots support for a sport for it to flourish yet we live in a city where few high schools have football teams and football fields get ripped up and replaced with soccer pitches. You have to look high and low to find Torontonians who've actually played football or been to more than 3-4 games over the last decade.

People cling to the belief that it's solely the image problem of the CFL. True, Toronto cares about cool factor over anything else but there's far more at play than that. When I tell Torontonians I play football they look at me like I've got 3 heads.

Btw, I like the 'This Is Our League' commercial. I don't find it pretentious, but on point. It is our league. 



Cjones2451 said:


> Toronto doesn't support the Argonauts because Toronto is very much a world class, major league city.


LA must be a rather provincial place for supporting the USC Trojans and UCLA Bruins in massive numbers. Or is it because they're culturally confident and don't need baubles to prove that they're world class?


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## isaidso

will101 said:


> But it won't happen. The NFL has agreed to never infringe upon the CFL's territory. So the fans in Toronto have the choice of attending Argos games close by, or making the long trek to Buffalo.


Agree. With the Buffalo question out of the way I hope Torontonians who care about this sport in their city will slowly re-focus their attention on building the football teams we already have. 

How prosperous/big time the Argos/CFL become is directly proportional to the support and devotion of Torontonians/Canadians to the team/league. That people don't see that direct correlation is baffling.


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## Cjones2451

Zack Fair said:


> The series was universally reviled by the Bills fans, the players didn't wanted to play here, the whole atmosphere was just bad and the attendance awful, no one in Toronto really had an interest to pay to watch the Bills loosing every time.
> 
> The Bills series is a joke because nobody want to see the worst football team in the worst football stadium when it's not even YOUR home team. I hope they don't renew it.


Sooooooo, you ae trying to prove to the NFL you are a great city for NFL, but say "We didn't like this, but trust us if we got our own team, we would really support it.......uhm, unless they sucked like the Bills. Oh wait we can't tailgate. Never mind" (note: I think Cdn Liquor Laws are WAY outdated need to be changed)


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## Zack Fair

isaidso said:


> ^^ More and more I'm convinced that the real problem is that Toronto is increasingly a soccer and basketball town. Football is in free fall, not just the Canadian variety. You need grass roots support for a sport for it to flourish yet we live in a city where few high schools have football teams and football fields get ripped up and replaced with soccer pitches. You have to look high and low to find Torontonians who've actually played football or been to more than 3-4 games over the last decade.


Toronto isn't a soccer town just because soccer it's popular among kids. Off course is becoming the primarily choice of high schools, soccer is dirty cheap to play compared to hockey and football, and athletic preparation is far more harder for football player than soccer, where basically everybody can play it. That doesn't mean it will be more popular than hockey, basketball and baseball in the foreseeable future.


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## koolio

Why is there so much talk about the NFL? As the recent Bills sale just proved, Toronto doesn't even have an ownership group that can afford to purchase a team, so all this talk of whether Toronto deserves a team or not is entirely moot. For better or for worse, the Argonauts will be the highest level of football in the city for the foreseeable future.


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## Zack Fair

koolio said:


> Why is there so much talk about the NFL? As the recent Bills sale just proved, Toronto doesn't even have an ownership group that can afford to purchase a team, so all this talk of whether Toronto deserves a team or not is entirely moot. For better or for worse, the Argonauts will be the highest level of football in the city for the foreseeable future.


Talking about why Toronto doesn't support the Argos and talking about buying the Bills are two different things.


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## isaidso

Zack Fair said:


> Toronto isn't a soccer town just because soccer it's popular among kids. Off course is becoming the primarily choice of high schools, soccer is dirty cheap to play compared to hockey and football, and athletic preparation is far more harder for football player than soccer, where basically everybody can play it. That doesn't mean it will be more popular than hockey, basketball and baseball in the foreseeable future.


I'm not basing this on how popular soccer is amongst kids. Cultural relevance is a good gauge of where something is heading. Hockey is flat lining, while soccer and basketball will take their place along side it in the not too distant future. Baseball is in gradual decline while football (all variations) is in 5th and falling lower each passing year. 

I know you and I both follow football, but we get a warped sense of how big this sport is in Toronto because of our social circles. Amongst the general population, football is largely off the radar. I've lived in cities where football matters and they don't feel like Toronto. It survives only due to Toronto's sheer size. Sort of like how hockey limped on in Phoenix.


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## flashman

isaidso said:


> I'm not basing this on how popular soccer is amongst kids. Cultural relevance is a good gauge of where something is heading. Hockey is flat lining, while soccer and basketball will take their place along side it in the not too distant future. Baseball is in gradual decline while football (all variations) is in 5th and falling lower each passing year.
> 
> I know you and I both follow football, but we get a warped sense of how big this sport is in Toronto because of our social circles. Amongst the general population, football is largely off the radar. I've lived in cities where football matters and they don't feel like Toronto. It survives only due to Toronto's sheer size. Sort of like how hockey limped on in Phoenix.


Canada's growth as a nation in the foreseeable future is almost entirely based on immigration. 

Our federal government, regardless of which party or political slant is in power, is in a perpetual process of competing to attract the brightest and best from abroad.

Very few, if any, who arrive on these latitudes to build a new life will have the slightest knowledge or awareness of what the word 'football' means unless it pertains to what English soccer-star-turned-TV-commentator Gary Lineker once cheekily described as "22 men chasing a white ball on a green rectangle and Germany wins 1-0." 

Those who do choose to take an interest in the gridiron version of football will quickly find the NFL as the league to follow. The same way that England's Premier League, Spain's La Liga, Germany's Bundesliga, Italy's Serie A or UEFA's Champions League dominate the interest of so many young people spanning so many varied nations around the globe today. It's quite simply the by-product of the convergence of internet broadcasting, improvements in the delivery of specialized TV, social media, peer pressure and fashion in sportswear. 

The interest in these leagues absolutely dwarfs all other competing interests. The CFL, at least in southern Ontario, is fighting a battle for hearts and minds it can't win. It simply isn't important enough anymore to captivate young minds the way it did half a century ago. In Toronto, it is not talked about casually amongst sports fans the way the Leafs or Raptors or soccer in general is. Baseball is doing quite nicely of late and the Blue Jays were very astute in introducing Mississauga native Dalton Pompey late on in the season and he certainly had tongues wagging locally with his bright play, with both glove and bat, as the season wound down. This is a team that will have no trouble selling hope for next season.

If only the Argos could claim to be so lucky. A team with less than 4,000 total season tickets sold less than two seasons after winning the Grey Cup. 

As sad as the future looks for the Argos, the CFL won't be the only victim of these changing demographics. Hockey, once considered a bulletproof, blue-chip commodity in this area, is definitely in peril. As Isaidso points out, participation in the game across the country is taking some alarming turns. Back around 1996-97, hockey and soccer finally reached equal numbers in terms of registered youth players across the country. About 530,000. 

Since then, hockey has struggled to maintain that number, let alone rise above the 600,000 mark. What's alarming within that number is that male registrations are down close to 50,000. Only a matching rise in female registrations has kept things from turning sour. But the male game is what drives the marketing and commercial aspects of hockey that are so vital to the game. Symptomatic of a decline in hockey interest in the Toronto area is the sparse support given to any hockey entity not wearing a Maple Leafs logo, though even the Marlies, the Leafs AHL farm team, struggle to draw 3,000. The OHL's Brampton Battalion juniors recently moved to North Bay and Mississauga Steelheads are playing in front of little more than family and friends these days in their marvellous 5,100-seat arena. Less than 1,000 were on hand today to watch two future NHL superstars - Sean Day and Jakob Chychrun - go head to head. It was amazing to watch them.

On the other hand, youth registrations in soccer are pushing past the 1 million mark, triple that if you were to count adult beer league players. In ever increasing numbers, generations have grown up playing and understanding soccer first hand. They've married and had kids who are now building on that process in a way that has never happened with football. A tipping point has been reached. Look at how TSN, the home of the CFL, have raced - awkwardly - to expand their soccer coverage, heartily boosting their coverage of both MLS and Premier League games. This, just a few years ago, was a network that scarcely acknowledged soccer existed.

This is illustrative of the challenge that the CFL faces, not just in Toronto, going forward. Profit margins are thin. Even with clubs that make money, like Saskatchewan or Winnipeg or Edmonton, year-in, year-out, the profit margins are not that big, with less than $5 million a year being the norm, break even not uncommon. When you factor in the need to subsidize most of the eastern conference, it leaves little in reserve for a bad run of years. When MLS moved into the three biggest markets in Canada, it not only competed for the discretionary spending of sports fans and corporate sponsors, it began to battle for air time and column space with broadcasters and news publishers. 

When you begin to chip into the already thin profit margins of the CFL, it begins to truly test the league's staying power. It may not be an issue - yet - in western Canada, but don't think for one second that Robert Wettenhall and his Alouette marketing staff were blasé about seeing the Saputo family erect a terrific soccer stadium to house the Impact next to the Big O. And TFC are doing no favours to the Argos. Chip away a little bit of ticket or suite sales, change a sponsor's mind about where to drop ad money for a season or three and erode their media presence and it soon adds up to a huge worry for the CFL in crucial markets.

All of which bears heavily on hearts and minds in local governments about spending on stadium renovations. And in this day and age, there's little room for sentiment or history. People just want to know how you're going to pay for whatever it is you want to do. All the Argos have done for so many years in the past five decades is lose money. They're in tough.


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## Welkin

GarfieldPark said:


> Toronto doesn't support the Argonauts because Toronto is very much a world class, major league city. If they could get an NFL club to play there, I have no doubt they would support it. They want to play in the league with teams from New York, Boston, Dallas, Washington, Seattle, etc - not small cities / provinces like Saskatchewan, Winnipeg and Hamilton. The people of Toronto want to be in one of the most important, largest, powerful sports leagues in the world (NFL) and don't really care about the CFL which they know, despite its importance in Canada, isn't a real big deal. Its not that difficult to understand.


First off, besides the US, Canada and occasionally London, the rest of the world could care less about the NFL. It is not one of the most "important and powerful" sports leagues in the world. The NBA may fit that description, but not the NFL. The world is interested in the EPL, not the NFL. As for the sports fans of Toronto only wanting to play the really cool cities in the US, it must suck having to watch the Leafs play the Jets, the Sens, the Flames and the Oilers. Thank God we do have two semi cool cities in Vancouver and Montreal. It is strange, but Tokyo is a world class, major league city and they don't seem to mind playing teams in cities such as Fukuoka, Sapporo or Nagoya. In fact every major league, world class city (London, Paris, Berlin, Rome, Madrid.....) play teams located in smaller cities in their domestic sports leagues. Do Arsenal fans bitch and moan and not show up to games just because the Gunners are playing teams from Hull City or Swansea? No, Toronto is the only city in the world that thinks it is too big and too cool to play in a domestic league with other cities in its own country. This is very odd and very strange and yes it is very difficult to understand.


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## GarfieldPark

I didn't say anything about people in other parts of the world caring about the nfl. It is one of the most powerful and important leagues in the world though, based on economic value of the teams. The teams in the nfl average #1 or #2 along with the top teams in the european futball league for the value of the franchises. Also, i wasn't talking about "coolness" of cities, just size. I can't say exactly why the fans of Toronto don't support their CFL team very well, but obviously they don't.


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## Welkin

GarfieldPark said:


> I didn't say anything about people in other parts of the world caring about the nfl. It is one of the most powerful and important leagues in the world though, based on economic value of the teams. The teams in the nfl average #1 or #2 along with the top teams in the european futball league for the value of the franchises. Also, i wasn't talking about "coolness" of cities, just size. I can't say exactly why the fans of Toronto don't support their CFL team very well, but obviously they don't.


It may be one of the richest, there is no doubt about that, but outside of North America it is neither important nor powerful. American style football's appeal is almost entirely North American based. The World League of American Football was a complete disaster (except where there were a lot of ex-pats or American servicemen). So if Toronto ever did get an NFL franchise, the rest of the world would hardly notice. Now if Toronto scored an EPL franchise, that would make world news (because of course that can't happen). All around the world, major cities and their powerful teams play matches against little dink teams in their domestic leagues. In the EPL, Man U. draws 75,000 per match and they have to play against teams like Queens Park that only draw 17,000. Fortunately they tend to dominate on the field as well. Maybe Toronto's problem is that they are used to dominating Canada at almost everything, but when it comes to the CFL they don't dominate their smaller competitors either on the field or at the attendance gate. Toronto sucks at not being #1. It is awful being the big fish in the small pond that keeps getting its ass kicked by all the other tiny fish.


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## Zack Fair

flashman said:


> As sad as the future looks for the Argos, the CFL won't be the only victim of these changing demographics. Hockey, once considered a bulletproof, blue-chip commodity in this area, is definitely in peril. As Isaidso points out, participation in the game across the country is taking some alarming turns. Back around 1996-97, hockey and soccer finally reached equal numbers in terms of registered youth players across the country. About 530,000.
> 
> Since then, hockey has struggled to maintain that number, let alone rise above the 600,000 mark. What's alarming within that number is that male registrations are down close to 50,000. Only a matching rise in female registrations has kept things from turning sour. But the male game is what drives the marketing and commercial aspects of hockey that are so vital to the game. Symptomatic of a decline in hockey interest in the Toronto area is the sparse support given to any hockey entity not wearing a Maple Leafs logo, though even the Marlies, the Leafs AHL farm team, struggle to draw 3,000. The OHL's Brampton Battalion juniors recently moved to North Bay and Mississauga Steelheads are playing in front of little more than family and friends these days in their marvellous 5,100-seat arena. Less than 1,000 were on hand today to watch two future NHL superstars - Sean Day and Jakob Chychrun - go head to head. It was amazing to watch them.
> 
> On the other hand, youth registrations in soccer are pushing past the 1 million mark, triple that if you were to count adult beer league players. In ever increasing numbers, generations have grown up playing and understanding soccer first hand. They've married and had kids who are now building on that process in a way that has never happened with football. A tipping point has been reached. Look at how TSN, the home of the CFL, have raced - awkwardly - to expand their soccer coverage, heartily boosting their coverage of both MLS and Premier League games. This, just a few years ago, was a network that scarcely acknowledged soccer existed.


Again, youth participation in soccer doesn't reflect its popularity. According to you, basketball should be the most popular sport in the US, which it is only if we take in account kids participation, but when you compare the popularity of college football + NFL and the popularity of college basketball + NBA, you get a different picture of what's really big there.










I don't know where you got your data, but they aren't accurate at all. Hockey Canada registration increased of 17% from 2001-2002 season to 2012-2013. 624,148 kids under 18 are registered with Hockey Canada. 1,136,000 is the number of Canadian men 15 years and older who play hockey. 1.5% is the annual growth for overall hockey participation. All of this when the approximate total equipment costs for one kid is ~$800. I don't buy your pessimism.


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## isaidso

*Flashman:* I agreed with about 90% of what you wrote in that long post including the prediction that hockey will be the next shoe to drop. Where we disagree is in the extent to which the CFL will fall.

I'm an immigrant from London UK and gravitated to the CFL despite the presence of the NFL. I realize that I'm just one person, but I think people will be attracted to this league for the same reason I was. It's a good product, entertaining, affordable, and it's ours. In a world of myriad sports options it's really our only national sports league at the pro level. When's the last time a Canadian team won the Stanley Cup? 

The CFL is the only league where I can talk to someone from Hamilton or Montreal or Saskatchewan and they're dialed in. The CFL acts as a glue that brings the country together. The Premiership does the same thing for the Brits. That's important in a country as vast and regionalized as Canada. These things don't matter to everyone, but they do matter to some of us. 

Many people feel alienated by leagues like the NHL which caters to corporations and the wealthy. How many families can afford to go to Leafs games? Regular people can relate to leagues like the CFL and it's a refreshing alternative. There will always be people that love football because it's a wonderful sport and there will always be people that prefer our brand of football over 4 down football. And it's not just Canadians that fall into that category.

We still get Baltimore Stallions fans showing up at the Grey Cup.


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## isaidso

*Zach:* Do you have hockey participation numbers for Toronto? My perception is that hockey overall is maintaining its position, but that there are lots of changes below the surface. In some markets its still growing, in some its flat lining, and in others its in decline. I suspect Toronto falls into the last category. Nationally hockey got a bump after the Vancouver 2010 Olympics, but the trend line isn't up.

The idea that hockey could one day not be #1 in Toronto is laughable to some, but things have a way of creeping up on people when we're not paying attention. 30 years ago no one in Canada watched the NFL. It was CFL all the way. And university football was once a big deal in this country. If you can believe it, the University of Toronto Varsity Blues football team used to post average attendance of 25,000+; now look at them.


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## flashman

The following is an excerpted paragraph from a Toronto Star article in January, 2012: 

_Enrolment in Hockey Canada teams is currently 572,000 players, down more than 200,000 from its peak. And the prospects are grim. In the next decade, some say there could be 200,000 fewer kids playing the game. Yet Hockey Canada remains apathetic to the injury problem._

My personal insight into the game of hockey is deep, long-standing and the by-product of many years earning the best part of a very good living by being rinkside and dealing with a variety of media and commercial concerns and first-hand experiences with the game's brightest stars. And their agents.

I wouldn't trust a Hockey Canada-generated statistic as far as I could throw Gump Worsley.


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## isaidso

*Place Bell* , Laval (part of the Montreal Census Metropolitan Area)

































http://lacitedelacultureetdusportlaval.ca/medias.html


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## isaidso

flashman said:


> I wouldn't trust a Hockey Canada-generated statistic as far as I could throw Gump Worsley.


I'm completely outside the hockey world, but that's my perception as well. Being in a position of power and influence for so long often breeds an environment of entitlement, complacency, and arrogance. I doubt an organization like Hockey Canada is willing to concede that 'fortress hockey' has vulnerability. 

Giving the Leafs a monopoly in southern Ontario has been damaging to the development of the sport here. It's not an adequately served market. People will gravitate to other sports when you're ignored or your product is out of reach to so many people.

What will that Laval arena be used for, AHL?


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## GunnerJacket

flashman said:


> I wouldn't trust a Hockey Canada-generated statistic as far as I could throw Gump Worsley.


Before or after he's had a meal? And are we talking shotput style or can you swing him around by one arm and one leg?

Details, man!

...

My family in NJ noted a similar themed article earlier this year regarding youth enrollment in sports, finding that football and hockey were both lagging. Parents were citing costs as a major factor, in that both have limited field/rink space compared to hoops, baseball and soccer. Gymnastics and tennis were also struggling as those feature semi-pro coaches versus the volunteer deals you often get with team sports.


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## flashman

isaidso said:


> *Place Bell* , Laval (part of the Montreal Census Metropolitan Area)
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> http://lacitedelacultureetdusportlaval.ca/medias.html


Montreal Canadiens minority owner Michael Landauer owns the club's AHL farm team, Hamilton Bulldogs. The plan is to move the AHL club to Laval and mimic what NHL teams in Toronto, Philly, Chicago etc. are doing by having their reserve players close by.

It's a lovely looking project. The video is a hoot with elegant, sophisticated and lonely-looking women - nice little black dress on one - roaming the lobbies and bar area. And wine glasses?! 

Laval's a decent enough place but a bit of a hoser heaven. The girls that inhabit the hockey arenas there have bigger hair, higher heels and tighter jeans. The new arena replaces the much-storied Colisee, a crazy old barn that used to house Laval major junior hockey teams. It sits close by the Laval Penitentiary and it was a truly crazy and occasionally scary place to visit. 










Gifted, skillful players like Mario Lemieux, Mike Bossy, Donald Audette, Vince Damphousse and Marty Lapointe played there. 

So did thumpers like Gino Odjick and Sandy McCarthy and that was more to the tastes of the crazy fans who'd stand on the top rail of the boards and scream at players over the low glass or hang around the visitors bench yelling threats. 

The former owner of the Laval Titan juniors, Jean Claude Morrisette, once attacked a referee with a beer bottle as he tried to leave after a game in the 1994 Memorial Cup final, arguably the worst Memorial Cup in modern memory. The ref, a prison guard at the penitentiary, needed hospital treatment for his cuts.

When the Titan were handed a big cheque by the league to prepare for the Memorial Cup, it was like something out of Fast Times at Ridgemont High. They went straight down to the local equivalent of Crazy Bob's and bought a set of whatever passes for Dominator MX10's in Quebec. Big, bitchin', refrigerator-sized speakers that they hung from the rafters to blast fans with(they blew out the woofers within a year).

Just before a Quebec-league playoff game, a group of suits from the Canadian Hockey League's Memorial Cup committee visited the arena to check out preparations. The arena DJ was an eclectic and mischievous fellow. He slipped on a disc of tracks he'd compiled for use at gay bars he worked at. As the group of suits toured the building gazing and nodding, he was blasting out some of the raunchiest tunes about the joys of sex involving, ahem, the tradesman's entrance.

The club created a huge banner reading House Of Pain, with pitchforks and blood drippings around the letters, that used to hang from creaky old catwalks above the visiting team's bench. It would be raised and lowered repeatedly - by hand - after the Titan scored.

After the Titan left, the arena was home to the Laval Chiefs of the North American Hockey League, an operation that basically used the movie Slapshot as it's template and Oogie Oglethorpe as it's icon of worship. The fights on the ice would spread into the beer-soaked stands. You had to see it to believe it.

Ahh, Laval. Stay classy.


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## will101

GunnerJacket said:


> Before or after he's had a meal? And are we talking shotput style or can you swing him around by one arm and one leg?
> 
> Details, man!


:hahaha: :lol: :hilarious


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## weava

flashman said:


> For the most part, the directional orientation of a baseball stadium is designed to protect the most vulnerable players, the batters. They have to be able to see 90+ mph pitches clearly. Failure to see a pitch clearly can have lethal consequences.
> 
> Traditionally, baseball stadiums have been set up to place the mound east and slightly north of the batters box, so batters aren't looking into the sun as afternoon wears on. It puts frontal light on the delivery of the pitch, an aspect that spawned the nickname for left-handed pitchers - 'southpaws'.
> 
> That is not a hard and fast rule and there are modern exceptions to it. Certain architectural features, especially a roof or domes, can minimize sunlight issues. Montreal's proposed stadium somewhat conforms to traditional field orientation. Turning it to face the downtown would put the mound slightly northwest of the plate, not ideal for batters, especially lefthanders, during late afternoons and evenings in the long days of June and July when the sun would set in that direction.
> 
> The proposed set up also looks like the most efficient fit for the available footprint of land. I wouldn't be surprised to see discussion of adding a retractable roof if it looks increasingly likely a team would move.


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## KingmanIII

JYDA said:


> I don't see why you can't just build a stadium that's only 25,000. The way I see it the majority of MLB stadiums are far too big and usually half empty. Half the league averaged between 17k to 29k this year (and that's if you believe official attendance numbers) yet almost all the parks seat over 40k.
> 
> http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance


Artificial scarcity would drive up ticket prices and further drive down attendance, especially in smaller, blue-collar markets like KC and Milwaukee.

Better to have 15-20,000 empty seats on weeknights, than to not have those seats for weekend crowds.


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## will101

KingmanIII said:


> Artificial scarcity would drive up ticket prices and further drive down attendance, especially in smaller, blue-collar markets like KC and Milwaukee.
> 
> Better to have 15-20,000 empty seats on weeknights, than to not have those seats for weekend crowds.


That exact same argument was used when baseball started downsizing from the 55,000 seat cookie-cutter stadiums of the 70s. But since then attendance is up more than 30%.


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## isaidso

What's conventional wisdom today as far as capacity goes? 45,000?


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## KingmanIII

For Montreal? More like 35,000.


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## KingmanIII

will101 said:


> That exact same argument was used when baseball started downsizing from the 55,000 seat cookie-cutter stadiums of the 70s. But since then attendance is up more than 30%.


but the capacities of newer stadiums are still higher than attendance was back then

a capacity of 25k is absurdly low


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## isaidso

KingmanIII said:


> For Montreal? More like 35,000.


I suppose they could always play at Olympic Stadium if they make it into post season or would that be too disruptive? :weird:


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## KingmanIII

isaidso said:


> I suppose they could always play at Olympic Stadium if they make it into post season or would that be too disruptive? :weird:


depends upon how long it would take to convert and prepare it


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## isaidso

The turf might be an issue, but lord knows they need to use that thing for something. It can't remain just something freaky to look at from a distance.... although it does add a certain 'je ne sais quoi' to the city.


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## weava

isaidso said:


> I suppose they could always play at Olympic Stadium if they make it into post season or would that be too disruptive? :weird:


and lose home field advantage, not likely and I don't know of it ever being done before. 
The players know the outfield dimentions, foul ball territory size, how the infield plays, etc. of their home stadium from playing there all year. They wouldn't want to move into an unknown stadium and risk errors that could cost them the series.


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## isaidso

That's what I thought. I guess Olympic Stadium will remain a Grey Cup venue once every 10 years and not much else.


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## will101

isaidso said:


> That's what I thought. I guess Olympic Stadium will remain a Grey Cup venue once every 10 years and not much else.


MLB can, and will, likely order a new Montreal team to always keep Olympic Stadium ready as a backup in case of really ugly weather. They (well, Selig) have made noises about moving postseason games at Minneapolis and Detroit to the domed stadium in Milwaukee before, if a worst-case weather system moves through.


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## isaidso

Spring and late fall weather is the biggest obstacle to Calgary/Edmonton ever getting MLB. They're not big enough today, but will both be interesting markets 30 years from now. They already have economies larger than Milwaukee, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Kansas City despite having a smaller population. 30 years from now they'll likely be ahead of quite a few MLB cities in both population and GDP.


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## isaidso

*Tim Hortons Field, Hamilton*

The 3 tier stands in the 2nd photo are far more impressive than the 2 tier stand in the 1st photo. It's a shame they didn't mirror the 3 tier stand on both sides. Maybe it can be done 10-15 years down the road. 









Source









Source


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## Zack Fair

^ Paint those goddamn end zones! There's no soccer team sharing the field, so I don't get what's the big deal, and a football turf with empty end zones looks like crap. 

Do you want to do something original? There you go:


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## ChesterCopperpot

Except if they copied that idea it wouldn't be original. The blank endzones are perfectly ok


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## isaidso

No I'm squarely with Zach on this one. I hate 95% of Canadian end zones. Most end zones in north America are painted because they look a billion times better like that. You label it 'original' to leave them blank? I call it sloppy laziness and poor attention to detail. This is an area where Canadian stadia usually do a terrible job. 

The only end zones in Canada that look good are in CIS. The University of Western Ontario and Acadia University have the most professional looking end zones. It drops of dramatically from there. Shockingly, things don't get better when one moves to the more monied CFL. 

That said, THF gets a temporary pass because it will be used for soccer during next summers Pan American Games. The true test will come once the Games are over. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they finish the job and paint those end zones. A simple 'H A M I L T O N' works perfectly: black background, gold letters, no distracting extras. Keep it simple. Why can't Canadians get this simple detail right?

I bet even if they did do those things they'd get the scale of the lettering wrong or do something weird like not centre it. :hammer:


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## isaidso

Zack Fair said:


> Do you want to do something original? There you go:


You can tell immediately when you're at a US stadium. It's the details that make anything nice. Notice they even painted the side line where the players congregate in orange. They did the same thing for the co-ed cheerleader squad. And notice they kept it simple. It looks awesome!

The University of Guelph has a similar pattern in their end zones. Now if only they could get rid of the athletics track, have real squared off corners in the end zone, and have the stands built done to a lowered field. :hammer:


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## The Real Gazmon

Odd question, not knowing the intricacies between the NFL and the CFL, but do the goal posts ever come into play much during the game itself?


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## carnifex2005

The Real Gazmon said:


> Odd question, not knowing the intricacies between the NFL and the CFL, but do the goal posts ever come into play much during the game itself?


Very rarely. That being said, defensive backs still have to watch for receivers trying to get free by using the post as a "pick" in the end zone.


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## ChesterCopperpot

I had a friend at the game at THF last Sunday who sat in the just opened Upper West Side seats - and boy is it steep up there


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## eastadl

its probably been asked before, but why don't North American "football" stadiums have any roofs for any stands. Most European soccer stadiums are 80-90% covered seats. In Australia our cricket, AFL stadiums are about 45% covered seating, yet all North American stadiums are all open. Is it because its cheap to build. Winnipeg seems to be the only one with a decent roof structure


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## weava

eastadl said:


> its probably been asked before, but why don't North American "football" stadiums have any roofs for any stands. Most European soccer stadiums are 80-90% covered seats. In Australia our cricket, AFL stadiums are about 45% covered seating, yet all North American stadiums are all open. Is it because its cheap to build. Winnipeg seems to be the only one with a decent roof structure


its been discussed a million times on this forum. It's cultural, we think outdoor sports should be played outdoors. Also, gridiron football is played in the fall and being in the sun on a chilly day is nicer than being cold under a dark roof. I personally hate roofs on stadiums.


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## isaidso

Agree. I might add that the north American desire to play football outdoors does have its limits. Winnipeg's new stadium is testament to that. Even if they had the money to build a dome they wouldn't have, but the roof was specifically designed to shield fans from the brutally cold weather that often occurs in October/November this far north.

The new stadium going up in Regina will do the same. It will be open air, but have a roof designed to shield fans from late season discomfort due to weather.


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## isaidso

ChesterCopperpot said:


> I had a friend at the game at THF last Sunday who sat in the just opened Upper West Side seats - and boy is it steep up there


Almost as steep as the upper bowl at Skydome. Looks like Hamiltonians have similarly great sight lines to the ones they enjoyed at the old Ivor Wynne. Hopefully support for the Tabbies grow to the point that they need to wrap that 3 tier stand all the way around that end zone. Is there room to do so?


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## Zack Fair

I was wondering.. How can the CFL be so blind? Playoffs in freaking mid November, scheduled on Sunday? Sorry CFL, but Sunday is NFL, they can't be so out of touch.. then they wonder why so many empty seats. 15,000 tickets sold for a playoff game in Montreal, for a metro area of 4 millions people, that's embarrassing at least (plus, Canadiens played against the Red Wings that day). You can't keep ignoring the importance NHL and NFL have in these markets.

Keep games on Saturday. Start the season early, keep with 16 weeks instead of 18, and hire a better PR and marketing team, for God sake.


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## isaidso

Sorry, but big CFL games have always been on Sunday. The league caters their product to CFL fans not NFL fans who don't have a game to watch. CFL fans preferences should come first and they do. We want to watch CFL playoffs on Sunday. Saturday is traditionally for CIS football playoffs, and Friday night is high school football. 

If the CFL playoffs were today instead of tomorrow I would have missed both the Montreal - Manitoba game and the McMaster - Mount Allison game. The Montreal game was sold out, the Hamilton game not far off from a sell out. 

You're reaching if you think only 15,000 showed up in Montreal because they were watching NFL and/or it was too cold. Canadians have been playing playoff football in late November for over a century. You're certainly playing into the national perception of this city being a bunch of wimps when it comes to weather. You realize Green Bay, Minnesota, Chicago, Buffalo, and Detroit play in -10C January weather and they still get 70,000+ right?



siamu maharaj said:


> Amen! Real men play like this:


----------



## isaidso

Regina's new football stadium: November 19th, 2014









Courtesy of RRI


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## Zack Fair

isaidso said:


> Sorry, but big CFL games have always been on Sunday. The league caters their product to CFL fans not NFL fans who don't have a game to watch. CFL fans preferences should come first and they do. We want to watch CFL playoffs on Sunday. Saturday is traditionally for CIS football playoffs, and Friday night is high school football.
> 
> If the CFL playoffs were today instead of tomorrow I would have missed both the Montreal - Manitoba game and the McMaster - Mount Allison game. The Montreal game was sold out, the Hamilton game not far off from a sell out.
> 
> You're reaching if you think only 15,000 showed up in Montreal because they were watching NFL and/or it was too cold. Canadians have been playing playoff football in late November for over a century. You're certainly playing into the national perception of this city being a bunch of wimps when it comes to weather. You realize Green Bay, Minnesota, Chicago, Buffalo, and Detroit play in -10C January weather and they still get 70,000+ right?



Yeah? Then why the Eskimos played in a half empty stadium in a PLAYOFFS game?

I'm sorry to tell you this isaidso, but you seem too biased and your hatred toward the NFL and american football in general might not help you to look at the things with a critical and objective way. 

Do you realize that, at Nov. 11, the Grey Cup final still had 6000 seats available, two weeks before the kickoff? If you look now on Ticketmaster, the upper bowl has thousands of seats still available. I don't know if that ever happened in a North American pro sport league ever.

Do you know the West semifinal between Saskatchewan and Edmonton ratings are down 20% from last year semi, and the East semi between Montreal and B.C. are down by 11% from last year(and we're talking about PLAYOFFS games) right? And more important, the league ratings dropped 6% this season. 

These are the tv ratings from last week:

1. NHL, Leafs-Sabres/Flyers-Habs/Jets-Preds/Rangers-Pens, Saturday, CBC/Rogers: 2,200,000
2. CFL, Roughriders at Eskimos, Sunday, TSN: 1,267,000 
3. CFL, Lions at Alouettes, Sunday, TSN: 874,000 
source

and for the sake of comparison, this shows how many Canadians watched the NFL's semifinals between Seahawks and 49ers last NFL playoffs:

1. NFL, 49ers at Seahawks, Sunday, CTV: 2,664,000
source

You might not like this, but the CFL is a product and need to sell. And when you have a bigger products in your own market (NHL and NFL), you can't compete directly against them having games the same day.

Just my 2 cents :2cents:


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## Scba

I don't think there's much to lose by moving it a week or two earlier.


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## ChesterCopperpot

The venue for the badminton, table tennis and water polo for the 2015 Pan-Am Games opened yesterday

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2014/11/atos-markham-pan-am-centre-officially-opens


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## Welkin

Zack Fair said:


> Yeah? Then why the Eskimos played in a half empty stadium in a PLAYOFFS game?
> 
> I'm sorry to tell you this isaidso, but you seem too biased and your hatred toward the NFL and american football in general might not help you to look at the things with a critical and objective way.
> 
> Do you realize that, at Nov. 11, the Grey Cup final still had 6000 seats available, two weeks before the kickoff? If you look now on Ticketmaster, the upper bowl has thousands of seats still available. I don't know if that ever happened in a North American pro sport league ever.
> 
> Do you know the West semifinal between Saskatchewan and Edmonton ratings are down 20% from last year semi, and the East semi between Montreal and B.C. are down by 11% from last year(and we're talking about PLAYOFFS games) right? And more important, the league ratings dropped 6% this season.
> 
> These are the tv ratings from last week:
> 
> 1. NHL, Leafs-Sabres/Flyers-Habs/Jets-Preds/Rangers-Pens, Saturday, CBC/Rogers: 2,200,000
> 2. CFL, Roughriders at Eskimos, Sunday, TSN: 1,267,000
> 3. CFL, Lions at Alouettes, Sunday, TSN: 874,000
> source
> 
> :


If you are going to make comparisons, then do apples to apples on the same day. The CFL kicked the NFL's butt last weekend. The NFL did not even come close. The CFL does not need to worry about airing its playoff games on Sunday just because there is an NFL game on at the same time. Way more Canadian football fans watched the CFL instead of the NFL. NFL numbers go way up after the CFL season is over because there is no more CFL competition to drag down NFL numbers.

*From your own article:* The only good news that came out of the weekend for TSN was the fact that the two CFL games ranked second and third among all sports programming, finishing well ahead of everything but perennial ratings-topper Hockey Night In Canada.

*Nothing the NFL offered up came close, so there's that. Maybe football fans were too busy raking leaves (or shovelling snow) to watch TV that day.*

But considering that the league saw ratings drop 6 per cent this season, this could be part of a disturbing trend. If fewer people watch during the regular season, it's only natural that fewer people will be interested in what follows.

There were a few mitigating factors that might help Cohon and his cohorts sleep a little easier -- or at least not wake up so often -- and still hold out hope that this year's Grey Cup will be a hit.

The West playoff game was a pretty uninspired affair, with both teams fielding shaky backup quarterbacks and little being generated in the way of offence. On the other hand, the game was competitive and the outcome was in doubt right up until the final two minutes. Regardless, any time you can draw more than a million viewers you shouldn't be too concerned.

The East semi suffered from the fact that only one team appeared to be trying to win as the Alouettes basically ran the Lions off the field. The fact that an average of 874,000 viewers watched the game isn't that discouraging -- especially when you consider that RDS' French broadcast averaged 420,000 viewers (slightly more than the 416,000 who watched last year.) After all, there's little doubt that the only viewers hanging in for the fourth quarter were either relatives of the Alouettes or the kind of people who enjoy visiting abbatoirs on their vacations.

But even with all those factors considered, there are disturbing signs. This marks the second straight ratings decrease for the East semifinal and the audience for last year's Grey Cup experienced a 17 per cent drop from the previous year.

This could all be ancient history by Sunday if the two division finals produce great games and great audiences. The potential certainly is there with plenty of bad blood in both games.

But with so few people interested in the semi-finals, those will have to be superb games to reverse that trend.

Here are the most-watched English-language sports events for the past weekend, according to Numeris overnight ratings:

1. NHL, Leafs-Sabres/Flyers-Habs/Jets-Preds/Rangers-Pens, Saturday, CBC/Rogers: 2,200,000

2. CFL, Roughriders at Eskimos, Sunday, TSN: 1,267,000

3. CFL, Lions at Alouettes, Sunday, TSN: 874,000

4. NHL, Senators at Flames, Saturday, CBC: 635,000

5. NHL, Canadiens at Red Wings, Sunday, City: 572,000

6. NHL, Hockey Night In Canada pre-game, Saturday, CBC: 540,000

*7. NFL, 49ers-Giants/Seahawks-Chiefs/Vikes-Bears/Bengals-Saints, Sunday, CTV: 507,000*


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## Zack Fair

Welkin said:


> If you are going to make comparisons, then do apples to apples on the same day. The CFL kicked the NFL's butt last weekend. The NFL did not even come close.


Please re-read my post and the article you just quoted. You're comparing a CFL playoff game with a NFL regular season game. *2.7 million* Canadians watched the NFC final last playoffs, while *2.2 million* watched the Brady-Manning match for the AFC final. Comparing playoffs with playoffs, the CFL did not better last Sunday: Eskimos at the Stampeders = 1,505,000; Alouettes at the Tiger-Cats = 1,234,000. Less of 2.8 million combined for two playoffs games. The NFL had 635,000 views the same day for Lions vs. the Patriots and Packers vs. the Vikings on CTV, not bad for just regular season games.	

And it's not even true that NFL ratings go up until the CFL season is over, these are the ratings from 21 Oct

1. NHL, Leafs-Wings/Avs-Habs/Jackets-Sens/Bruins-Sabres, Saturday, CBC: 2,200,000
*2. NFL, Vikes-Bills/Panthers-Packers/Seahawks-Rams/Bengals-Colts, Sunday, CTV: 893,000*
*3. NFL. Giants-Cowboys/Chiefs-Chargers, Sunday, CTV: 873,000*
4. NHL, Lightning at Canucks, Saturday, CBC: 885,000
5. CFL, Eskimos at Riders, Sunday, TSN: 732,000
6. NHL, Red Wings at Maple Leafs, Friday, Sportsnet Ontario: 723,000
7. CFL, Alouettes at Argos, Saturday, TSN: 591,000
8. CFL, Stamps at Bombers, Saturday, TSN: 565,000
*9. NFL, 49ers at Broncos, Sunday, TSN: 492,000 (NBC viewers not measured)*


----------



## Welkin

Zack Fair said:


> Please re-read my post and the article you just quoted. You're comparing a CFL playoff game with a NFL regular season game. *2.7 million* Canadians watched the NFC final last playoffs, while *2.2 million* watched the Brady-Manning match for the AFC final. Comparing playoffs with playoffs, the CFL did not better last Sunday: Eskimos at the Stampeders = 1,505,000; Alouettes at the Tiger-Cats = 1,234,000. Less of 2.8 million combined for two playoffs games. The NFL had 635,000 views the same day for Lions vs. the Patriots and Packers vs. the Vikings on CTV, not bad for just regular season games.
> 
> And it's not even true that NFL ratings go up until the CFL season is over, these are the ratings from 21 Oct
> 
> 1. NHL, Leafs-Wings/Avs-Habs/Jackets-Sens/Bruins-Sabres, Saturday, CBC: 2,200,000
> *2. NFL, Vikes-Bills/Panthers-Packers/Seahawks-Rams/Bengals-Colts, Sunday, CTV: 893,000*
> *3. NFL. Giants-Cowboys/Chiefs-Chargers, Sunday, CTV: 873,000*
> 4. NHL, Lightning at Canucks, Saturday, CBC: 885,000
> 5. CFL, Eskimos at Riders, Sunday, TSN: 732,000
> 6. NHL, Red Wings at Maple Leafs, Friday, Sportsnet Ontario: 723,000
> 7. CFL, Alouettes at Argos, Saturday, TSN: 591,000
> 8. CFL, Stamps at Bombers, Saturday, TSN: 565,000
> *9. NFL, 49ers at Broncos, Sunday, TSN: 492,000 (NBC viewers not measured)*


I know that you are just an NFL Troll and we really should not feed the trolls, but anyone can cherry pick a week of ratings to support their point of view. For example here is one from September 6-7 where non-playoff CFL games stomped NFL games.
1. CFL, Roughriders at Blue Bombers, Sunday, TSN: 1,107,000

2. MLB, Blue Jays at Red Sox, Friday, Sportsnet: 821,000

3. CFL, Stampeders at Eskimos, Saturday, TSN: 753,000

4. NFL, 49ers at Cowboys, Sunday, CTV: 683,000

5. CFL, Lions at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 668,000

6. NFL, Early games, Sunday, CTV: 601,000

7. NFL, Colts at Broncos, Sunday, CTV: 595,000 (NBC viewers not measured)

8. MLB, Blue Jays at Red Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 528,000

9. NFL, Giants at Lions, Monday, TSN: 495,000

10. NFL, Chargers at Cardinals, Monday, TSN: 430,000


Here is one from October 11-12 where the CFL stomped every NFL game except the Cowboys-Seahawks:
1. NHL, Pens-Leafs/Habs-Flyers/Sens-Lightning/Flames-Blues/Caps-Bruins, Saturday, CBC*: 2,230,000

2. NHL, Oilers-Canucks/Sharks-Jets, Saturday, CBC*: 1,310,000

3. NHL, Leafs at Rangers, Sunday, City: 1,007,000

4. NFL, Cowboys at Seahawks, Sunday, CTV: 921,000

5. CFL, Bombers at Eskimos, Monday, TSN: 843,000

6. CFL, Roughriders at Alouettes, Monday, TSN: 782,000

7. CFL, Ticats at Argonauts, Friday, TSN: 636,000

8. NFL, Pats-Bills/Packers-Dolphins/Lions-Vikes, Sunday, CTV: 606,000

9. NHL, Hockey Night In Canada pre-game, Saturday, CBC: 545,000

10. MLB, Royals at Orioles, Friday, Sportsnet: 503,000


It is nice to know that the NFL is out there so that you trolls who hate your domestic home league can suck on the teat of a massive American Sports marketing machine. The CFL is doing just fine without you. Depending on who is playing, the ratings are up or the ratings are down but regardless, the ratings are always pretty impressive. The CFL can hold its head up and it doesn't ever need to take a back seat to the NFL on Sundays. You want to be a NFL fan, that is your choice. So why don't you spend your time trolling NFL sites and tell them all about how they are kicking our butts up here in the Great White North. I am sure they won't really care. Go Argos.


----------



## Zack Fair

First of all, just because I'm bringing up some facts and I've my personal ideas that doesn't mean I'm a troll, neither you're authorized to make personal attacks on me for lack of a better argument or because you don't share my POV. Second of all, your post just denoted your inferiority complex as a NFL hater. No, I'm not a NFL troll nor I've a personal agenda against the CFL, just the opposite, I hope the CFL and university football in Canada will be even more relevant than now. 

That said, that difference in viewership you evidenced it's hardly a "stomping the NFL", as far I'm concerned. As for the "I hate the CFL" you're way off bud. While I'm not a fan of any particular team, I regularly watch their games, and unlike you I don't despite any league at all because I can say to be a real football fan. I'm not sure if you know what that does mean. Football is football. 

This is a forum, and everybody should be encouraged to share their opinions, unfortunately that's another basic noction you failed to grasp. Instead, you choose to insult like a child with no intention of developing a debate. That's your choice. Keep hating, I'll keep laughing.


----------



## Welkin

Zack Fair said:


> First of all, just because I'm bringing up some facts and I've my personal ideas that doesn't mean I'm a troll, neither you're authorized to make personal attacks on me for lack of a better argument or because you don't share my POV. Second of all, your post just denoted your inferiority complex as a NFL hater. No, I'm not a NFL troll nor I've a personal agenda against the CFL, just the opposite, I hope the CFL and university football in Canada will be even more relevant than now.
> 
> That said, that difference in viewership you evidenced it's hardly a "stomping the NFL", as far I'm concerned. As for the "I hate the CFL" you're way off bud. While I'm not a fan of any particular team, I regularly watch their games, and unlike you I don't despite any league at all because I can say to be a real football fan. I'm not sure if you know what that does mean. Football is football.
> 
> This is a forum, and everybody should be encouraged to share their opinions, unfortunately that's another basic noction you failed to grasp. Instead, you choose to insult like a child with no intention of developing a debate. That's your choice. Keep hating, I'll keep laughing.


Sorry Zack but there was nothing to your post but another round of CFL bashing, which we see a lot on these sites. Again I don't care if you want to hang with the "cool kids" down in the NFL, but what was the point about your post anyway. Oh look, an NFL game got great ratings compared to a CFL Playoff game. Oh look, the NFL (in a city of millions and millions) can sell out a 65,000 seat stadium but poor Edmonton only fills it halfway for a playoff game. Oh look, the corporate monster that is the NFL can sell out the Super Bowl, but the Grey Cup still has tickets for sale. For the record, the Grey Cup normally sells out a lot faster but there is a lot of price gouging for really bad seats this year. You are not sharing your opinions in a positive light and you are not looking for an engaged debate. If you are, then you really need to work on your debating skills. 

Everyone knows that the NFL has billions and billions to promote their league and the CFL does not. Everyone knows that the NFL has unlimited funds to put on the flashiest shows with the latest computer graphics to provide the ultimate in entertainment. The NFL is corporate American excess at its greatest. What the NFL does not have is Canada. Sure they broadcast their games here. Canada is no different than Mexico, Germany, England and a host of other countries, but there is no NFL in Canada and there never will be. The CFL is Canada and is our only major domestic sports league. The CFL is not perfect, it is not wealthy, it is also not overpriced and it is fan friendly. It is a Canadian game played by Canadians (how many Canadians play in the NFL?). I don't care about NFL TV ratings in Canada just as I don't care about EPL TV ratings in Canada. Besides 800,00 TV viewers for a game, what is that, the equivalent of the viewers in Dallas for a Cowboys game. That is why the NFL does not care about Canada. Our whole country does not exceed the Dallas metroplex for viewers. 

Everyone is looking for ways to make OUR game better. If you want to get into a positive debate on how to get that started, fine, go ahead a make some suggestions. Just don't start out by saying we suck.


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## Zack Fair

del


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## Zack Fair

Welkin said:


> Sorry Zack but there was nothing to your post but another round of CFL bashing, which we see a lot on these sites. Again I don't care if you want to hang with the "cool kids" down in the NFL, but what was the point about your post anyway. Oh look, an NFL game got great ratings compared to a CFL Playoff game. Oh look, the NFL (in a city of millions and millions) can sell out a 65,000 seat stadium but poor Edmonton only fills it halfway for a playoff game. Oh look, the corporate monster that is the NFL can sell out the Super Bowl, but the Grey Cup still has tickets for sale. For the record, the Grey Cup normally sells out a lot faster but there is a lot of price gouging for really bad seats this year. You are not sharing your opinions in a positive light and you are not looking for an engaged debate. If you are, then you really need to work on your debating skills.
> 
> Everyone knows that the NFL has billions and billions to promote their league and the CFL does not. Everyone knows that the NFL has unlimited funds to put on the flashiest shows with the latest computer graphics to provide the ultimate in entertainment. The NFL is corporate American excess at its greatest. What the NFL does not have is Canada. Sure they broadcast their games here. Canada is no different than Mexico, Germany, England and a host of other countries, but there is no NFL in Canada and there never will be. The CFL is Canada and is our only major domestic sports league. The CFL is not perfect, it is not wealthy, it is also not overpriced and it is fan friendly. It is a Canadian game played by Canadians (how many Canadians play in the NFL?). I don't care about NFL TV ratings in Canada just as I don't care about EPL TV ratings in Canada. Besides 800,00 TV viewers for a game, what is that, the equivalent of the viewers in Dallas for a Cowboys game. That is why the NFL does not care about Canada. Our whole country does not exceed the Dallas metroplex for viewers.
> 
> Everyone is looking for ways to make OUR game better. If you want to get into a positive debate on how to get that started, fine, go ahead a make some suggestions. Just don't start out by saying we suck.


Sorry but I didn't bashed anything. I don't "hang with the cool kids down in the NFL". Since you seem so sure to know me, let me tell you something: I've start to watch football back in Europe a.k.a. soccerland, and the only thing we got there was only the NFL and only few selected matches, so my passion for football grew up in front of a TV broadcasting Giants games at 2 am. I came to Canada and I started to watch both college and the CFL.

I might have different views that you or other CFL fans here, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize the league just because I'm a NFL fan.

I never say the CFL sucks. Never. You're putting words in my mouth. Feel free to read every comment I've post in this thread and you won't ever find me bashing the CFL. Like I've already said, I'm the first that would love to see our national league finally get over its problems and shine. But until that I'll keep expressing my opinions, and if you can't deal with my criticism then I fear a forum isn't the right place for you.

Peace.


----------



## Welkin

Zack Fair said:


> Sorry but I didn't bashed anything. I don't "hang with the cool kids down in the NFL". Since you seem so sure to know me, let me tell you something: I've start to watch football back in Europe a.k.a. soccerland, and the only thing we got there was only the NFL and only few selected matches, so my passion for football grew up in front of a TV broadcasting Giants games at 2 am. I came to Canada and I started to watch both college and the CFL.
> 
> I might have different views that you or other CFL fans here, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize the league just because I'm a NFL fan.
> 
> I never say the CFL sucks. Never. You're putting words in my mouth. *Feel free to read every comment I've post in this thread and you won't ever find me bashing the CFL.* Like I've already said, I'm the first that would love to see our national league finally get over its problems and shine. But until that I'll keep expressing my opinions, and if you can't deal with my criticism then I fear a forum isn't the right place for you.
> 
> Peace.


I am sorry, you are correct. These are words of encouragement and respect. There is no CFL bashing here.....

_I was wondering.. *How can the CFL be so blind?* Playoffs in freaking mid November, scheduled on Sunday? Sorry CFL, but *Sunday is NFL*, *they can't be so out of touch.. *then they wonder why so many empty seats. 15,000 tickets sold for a playoff game in Montreal, for a metro area of 4 millions people, that's embarrassing at least (plus, Canadiens played against the Red Wings that day). You can't keep ignoring the importance NHL and NFL have in these markets_.

_Keep games on Saturday. Start the season early, keep with 16 weeks instead of 18, and *hire a better PR and marketing team, for God sake*. 

Do you realize that, at Nov. 11, the Grey Cup final still had 6000 seats available, two weeks before the kickoff? If you look now on Ticketmaster, the upper bowl has thousands of seats still available.* I don't know if that ever happened in a North American pro sport league ever*....._By the way, the 2012 Super Bowl in Indianapolis did not sell out. There were over 3,000 tickets that went unsold.

Anyway, last response to this line of discussion. Please debate someone else.


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## Zack Fair

Welkin said:


> I am sorry, you are correct. These are words of encouragement and respect. There is no CFL bashing here.....
> 
> _I was wondering.. *How can the CFL be so blind?* Playoffs in freaking mid November, scheduled on Sunday? Sorry CFL, but *Sunday is NFL*, *they can't be so out of touch.. *then they wonder why so many empty seats. 15,000 tickets sold for a playoff game in Montreal, for a metro area of 4 millions people, that's embarrassing at least (plus, Canadiens played against the Red Wings that day). You can't keep ignoring the importance NHL and NFL have in these markets_.
> 
> _Keep games on Saturday. Start the season early, keep with 16 weeks instead of 18, and *hire a better PR and marketing team, for God sake*.
> 
> Do you realize that, at Nov. 11, the Grey Cup final still had 6000 seats available, two weeks before the kickoff? If you look now on Ticketmaster, the upper bowl has thousands of seats still available.* I don't know if that ever happened in a North American pro sport league ever*....._By the way, the 2012 Super Bowl in Indianapolis did not sell out. There were over 3,000 tickets that went unsold.
> 
> Anyway, last response to this line of discussion. Please debate someone else.


Oh, I must have hurt your feelings with my criticizing... And what "respect" have to do with what we're discussing here? Oh my goodness, someone is challenging the effectiveness of this league, GOD FORBID! Yes, CFL PR and marketing is most of the time mediocre for a +100 years pro sport organization, but I gotta say the recent TV deals have been a great move by the league, plus now the games are hired on ESPN3 in the U.S. so.. I'm happy about that.
I stand by what I've said. If that looks "bashing" to you, then grow a thicker skin. 

p.s. there were less than 1400 tickets unsold for Superbowl 2012 in Indy.. in a 70,000 seats stadium. BC Place is 54,500 and the organization still got 4300 tickets unsold. You can make the math.


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## isaidso

Mark Cohon explained during the Grey Cup pre game show that there was no question the Argos would be in BMO come 2017. He said "by this time next year we wont be having this conversation". Great news! Looks like we can look forward to this:


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## isaidso

Richardson Stadium, home of the Queen's University football team in Kingston, is getting a rebuild. The $20M budget is almost entirely ($17M/$20M) funded by donations from wealthy alumni. Queen's has been fielding football teams since 1882.

http://www.queensu.ca/gazette/storie...revitalization

Here's a rendering from the Queen's Gazette. Apparently the north side will not be built in the first phase, but the plan is to eventually finish a bowl layout.










Source: http://www.queensu.ca/gazette/


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## will101

isaidso said:


> Richardson Stadium, home of the Queen's University football team in Kingston, is getting a rebuild. The $20M budget is almost entirely ($17M/$20M) funded by donations from wealthy alumni. Queen's has been fielding football teams since 1882.
> 
> Here's a rendering from the Queen's Gazette. Apparently the north side will not be built in the first phase, but the plan is to eventually finish a bowl layout.


The article said that the capacity will be around 9,000. Why are they building a bowl when much of the CFL focuses on sideline seating? Is it cost?


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## isaidso

It's true that one wants most of the seats between the sidelines, but there's still an interest in trying to build end zone seats. I imagine its cheaper as well.

The CFL is moving towards having complete bowls to create a more intimate atmosphere even if its just 1 tier. Ottawa is the only new stadia with no end zone seating to speak of. If the sell outs continue, I imagine pressure will build to construct end zone seats there as well. Mosaic will be a bowl but BMO will not due to the need to accommodate soccer.

The Queen's University bowl is a pleasant surprise as one doesn't normally see bowls in football stadia with such a small capacity.


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## Scba

I don't know how much atmosphere you're going to get when the stands are ten rows deep.


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## mamangvilla

So Toronto will have bigger capacity for soccer rather than football. Interesting, never thought that would happen in north america.


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## isaidso

^^ Football has suffered a precipitous fall in Toronto over the last 40 years. It's the most catastrophic collapse witnessed by the domestic culture. There is no parallel in Canada/US.



Scba said:


> I don't know how much atmosphere you're going to get when the stands are ten rows deep.


Few universities here have significantly more rows than that. Even places like McMaster and Western would have less than 20 rows.


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## flashman

Some interesting information from an Ottawa visit over the Christmas holidays. The Senators want to build a new arena close to the city centre at LeBreton Flats, a large, undeveloped tract of greenfield space just west of the city centre, not far from Parliament Hill.

http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/loc...ke-first-step-towards-possible-le-breton-site

http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/12/26/lebreton-decision-will-take-time

It's a great site, close to the Ottawa River, with three bridges nearby to carry traffic over to Gatineau, Quebec. Plus the Riverside Parkway to carry traffic out to the west side of town. It's coveted by a number of developers, so it's hardly a sure thing the Senators will get it. But talk to locals - my relatives - and they all agree it's a no-brainer first choice.

Ottawa is in the early stages of developing a light rail transit system and this would be a natural impetus for further development into the city core.

I'd posted earlier about the disastrous state of the Civic Arena re-development at Lansdowne Park, where a football stadium project was completed earlier this year. Money has run dry and workers have basically put their tools down, leaving the 10,000-seat arena in a state of disrepair, with the upper level suites and press boxes unusable after being condemned.

Can't be a shock if the city doesn't want to spend any further funds on that project when a potential new NHL-calibre facility might get built within the city proper (right now, the Senators play 20km to the west in suburban Kanata). In all likelihood, if the new arena project were to be approved, it would probably be the responsibility of Jeff Hunt, owner of the Ottawa 67s junior hockey team - and member of the Landsdowne Sports and Entertainment Group - to foot the bill for any upgrades to the old barn.

Would he do it? Or would he move his team into the new arena? Would his junior team, currently struggling with dramatically falling attendance figures, even be able to survive with the NHL on their doorstep?


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## mvcg66b3r

flashman said:


> Some interesting information from an Ottawa visit over the Christmas holidays. The Senators want to build a new arena close to the city centre at LeBreton Flats, a large, undeveloped tract of greenfield space just west of the city centre, not far from Parliament Hill.
> 
> http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/loc...ke-first-step-towards-possible-le-breton-site
> 
> http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/12/26/lebreton-decision-will-take-time
> 
> It's a great site, close to the Ottawa River, with three bridges nearby to carry traffic over to Gatineau, Quebec. Plus the Riverside Parkway to carry traffic out to the west side of town.
> 
> Ottawa is in the early stages of developing a light rail transit system and this would be a natural impetus for further development into the city core.


Then what would happen to the Canadian Tire Centre?


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## flashman

isaidso said:


> ^^ Football has suffered a precipitous fall in Toronto over the last 40 years. It's the most *catastrophic* collapse witnessed by the domestic culture. There is no parallel in Canada/US.
> Few universities here have significantly more rows than that. Even places like McMaster and Western would have less than 20 rows.


That's a bit of a dramatic overstatement, don't you think? Interest in the NFL has never been stronger in Toronto. The situation is like a water balloon - when it gets squeezed tight in one area, it pops up bigger in another.


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## flashman

mvcg66b3r said:


> Then what would happen to the Canadian Tire Centre?


Well, as Neil Young might put it, "In the field of opportunity, it's plowing time again."


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## isaidso

flashman said:


> That's a bit of a dramatic overstatement, don't you think?


Not at all. In 1976 the Argonauts posted average attendance of 47,355 in a metro of 2.8 million people. 2 generations later, average attendance has dropped 62% to 17,791 with more than double the population to draw from. That's a catastrophic decline by most people's standards and why we will now see our soccer team play in a larger capacity stadium than our football team. If the Argonauts had maintained the same level of support amongst Torontonians, they'd be drawing ~ 100,000 fans/game today.



flashman said:


> Interest in the NFL has never been stronger in Toronto. The situation is like a water balloon - when it gets squeezed tight in one area, it pops up bigger in another.


I mentioned a catastrophic decline in the domestic culture. The NFL is an imported culture if that really needed to be pointed out. NFL + CFL put together still doesn't come close to the level of support that football had in the 1970s. Football in all its forms has been is steady decline for a very very long time in this part of Canada.


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## Lord David

Expand the league already. Playing 9 odd teams must be boring at times. It's about time there were at least 12.


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## flashman

Oh, do carry on.

Lay it out for us - cities to play in and how the facilities to house those teams will get built.


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## will101

Lord David said:


> Expand the league already. Playing 9 odd teams must be boring at times. It's about time there were at least 12.


They already would have, if they could. But right now there is only so much TV money to go around, and the existing teams need the TV money to survive.

And then you get into the question of where do you put them. If the (lack of) TV money wasn't an issue and I was just sticking pins into the map, then I would add teams to Quebec City, either Moncton or Halifax, and somewhere between London, Kitchener or Windsor. Unfortunately there are not suitable venues in any of those locations, except Moncton (and that is a bit of a stretch).

Then you get into the issue of finding wealthy individuals to buy the expansion franchises. Those people just don't grow on trees.

Once you solve those big problems, there are others, but for now those issues are enough to keep the size of the league at nine.


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## flashman

Zero chance of putting a team in Quebec City in the near future. They just dropped over $400 million to build a state of the art hockey arena which will, eventually, earn them a NHL franchise. That would basically dry up every dollar of corporate support. One would also have to consider whether the successful Remparts junior hockey team would remain in Quebec, operating under the wing of a NHL team the way junior clubs do in Calgary or Edmonton.

That arena will also serve as a cornerstone facility, along with a refurbished Colisee next door, in a bid for a future Winter Olympics. 

Moncton? If one of the Irvings needed a tax write off for their collective wealth, this might be the lost cause to pursue. One of them owns the Wildcats junior hockey team, but it probably makes money. If one wanted to argue that Moncton could serve as a base for a region, Moncton doesn't remotely have the diversity of resources that places like London, Kitchener-Waterloo or even Saskatoon could offer.

Halifax would be a lovely addition to the league. Marketable identity, decent corporate presence, great city. And a big military presence to provide a natural audience for a contact sport.


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## isaidso

Université Laval is the big obstacle to CFL expansion in Quebec City not market size. Laval average close to 16,000 fans/game and want to maintain their football monopoly. Quebec City has a larger corporate base than Hamilton, Regina, Winnipeg, and roughly on par with Edmonton. There are 720,000 in the Capitale-Nationale and another 430,000 people in the adjacent Chaudière-Appalaches region to the south. This is a big market by Canadian standards.

Having lived in Halifax for 20 years, I fully agree that it's a no-brainer. As always, the issue is the stadium but that actually looks like it will get done this time around. A Halifax franchise would instantly become the dominant sports team in the whole region. They'd have to be completely incompetent to make a Halifax franchise fail. 



Lord David said:


> Expand the league already. Playing 9 odd teams must be boring at times. It's about time there were at least 12.


Football people in Canada recognize the need for a domestic league with more than 9 teams, but its not wise to expand for the sake of expansion. It must be done with strong ownership groups in place, appropriate stadia, solid corporate support, and incrementally 1 team at a time. Ottawa is a good example of every thing done right... and it shows. This is a franchise that will continue to see sell outs once the novelty wears off. 

I'm confident we'll be at 10 teams by 2020 and 12 teams by 2030. There are only so many sizable markets in this country. 500,000 is about the minimum size market the national football league should enter. Regina is an outlier. Saskatchewan is, by far, the most football mad province in the nation.


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## Lord David

A Canadian World Cup bid might just be the catalyst for new stadiums in Canadian cities, which would be built for Soccer and Canadian football in mind.


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## will101

isaidso said:


> I'm confident we'll be at 10 teams by 2020 and 12 teams by 2030.


Assuming a roughly five year period to get a new franchise up and running, doesn't that mean the CFL should be discussing the 10th franchise at their next meeting?


----------



## flashman

Financial fiasco revealed in Hamilton's stadium project. Lot of extra costs piled up to keep the TiCats happy.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queensp...pan-am-stadium-say-they-havent-been-paid.html

By: Richard J. Brennan Provincial Politics, Published on Sun Mar 08 2015 

In the rush to get Hamilton’s Pan Am Games stadium completed, subcontractors on the project say they haven’t been paid in full.

The subcontractors say the general contracting consortium Ontario Sports Solutions owes them more than $2 million in unpaid overtime and services rendered. They say they had no choice but to register liens against the property.

A property lien is a legal claim seeking money upon its sale.

It’s just the latest controversy surrounding the stadium, which has been dogged by delays. It was supposed to be completed by the end of June last year, yet the stadium, which will host the 2015 Pan Am Games soccer competition (running July 11-26), is reported to be only about 99 per cent completed now.

At least one subcontractor, Brascon Stainless Steel Fabricators Inc., is blaming senior consortium partner French-owned Bouygues Building Canada Inc. for the financial standoff. 

“A much larger entity is taking advantage of the sub trades, in our opinion,” said Scott MacKenzie of Brascon, which says it is owed $133,000.

Samuel Gandossi, ‎projects director at Bouygues, directed all questions about the dispute to Infrastructure Ontario, the government agency that awarded contracts to Ontario Sports Solutions for building the Hamilton stadium, the $56-million Milton velodrome and the $45.5-million athletics stadium at York University.

“I am not willing to share any of this story,” Gandossi told the Star. “These are issues that deal with the life of a project. That’s what it’s going to be.” 

Under what is known as alternative financing procurement, Ontario Sports Solutions was required to design, finance and build all three projects, including the Hamilton stadium. And only when completed is the consortium paid in full.

While there are four liens against the stadium, Infrastructure Ontario insists taxpayers’ investment is protected because of a lien bond taken out by the general contractor, Ontario Sports Solutions. But that bond does not guarantee money to the sub trades, which face going to court to make their cases.

The $145-million football and soccer stadium is expected to be handed over to the City of Hamilton in April. The city in turn will hand over the keys to Tim Hortons Field to TO2015 for the duration of the summer Pan Am Games, taking place from July 10-26.

Hamilton kicked in $54.3 million toward the cost of the stadium, the province $22.3 million, and Ottawa $69.1 million.

According to the Hamilton Spectator, since late December, land registry documents show construction liens totalling more than $2 million have been filed against the Balsam Ave. N. stadium property by subcontractors Clifford Masonry, Reimar Construction, Brascon Stainless Steel Fabricators, and Lancaster Group. Clifford has the largest claim at more than $1 million. 

Sean Martin, director of operations for Reimar, said the company is owed $160,000 for overtime when the push was on to complete the stadium in time for the Ticats to play their annual Labour Day Classic.

“We got signed commitments (from the general contractor) on a daily basis that the overtime was extra to our contract,” he said, adding the company is disappointed that it put in the extra effort and is not being paid. Reimar was responsible for the concrete foundations and concrete for the stadium steps.

Kenaidan Contracting Ltd. of Mississauga, another Ontario Sports Solutions partner, declined to talk to the Star about the liens and directed questions to Infrastructure Ontario.

A spokesperson for Infrastructure Ontario said protecting the taxpayer is what matters and added it is the general contractor’s responsibility to ensure their subcontractors are paid.

“Our project agreements include a requirement for the contractor to place a bond against any liens — effectively insurance against liens. As a result, liens on projects also don’t impact the building occupancy permitting process or substantial completion. It is each project contractor’s responsibility to ensure their subcontractors are paid,” Alan Findlay told the Star.

NDP Leader Andrea Horwath said the government could bring in prompt payment legislation to cover situations like this.

“Overall — not this specific project — the problem with prompt payment and the release of funds has come up over and over again,” Horwath said.

Brascon’s MacKenzie said the subcontractors got involved in the Hamilton project because of its previous dealing with Kenaidan.

“None of us knew who these other people were ... I had never heard of them before. But it’s because of this relationship with Kenaidan ... that we all got started,” he said.


----------



## isaidso

University of Regina host the University of Saskatchewan at the inaugural game at Regina's new Mosaic Stadium. Attendance was 16,500. I can see this quickly becoming Canada's premier football stadium. Not bad for a tiny metro of 230,000 people. :yes:









Courtesy of ReginaGuy


----------



## Cjones2451

isaidso said:


> University of Regina host the University of Saskatchewan at the inaugural game at Regina's new Mosaic Stadium. Attendance was 16,500. I can see this quickly becoming Canada's premier football stadium. Not bad for a tiny metro of 230,000 people. :yes:
> 
> And this was a test event so it was capped at 16,500. Probably could have been way more


----------



## flashman

It would be good to get an update on this story. The man who designed the wooden veil that fronts TD Place Stadium in Ottawa is bankrupt after he never got paid for it:

http://ottawacitizen.com/business/l...of-cost-overruns-business-failure-and-layoffs

And maybe a summary of progress on all the many lawsuits currently filed by a number of subcontractors on the project.


----------



## isaidso

Cjones2451 said:


> And this was a test event so it was capped at 16,500. Probably could have been way more


That's what I was thinking but I did see a lot of empty seats in the lower bowl end zone.


----------



## flashman

Ahh, here's what I was hoping to find. A useful graphic laying out all the myriad lawsuits for non-payment of contracted fees to build the new half of TD Place stadium in Ottawa.










It would seem the willful non-payment is part and parcel of everyday CFL stadium construction, a standard tactic once work begins and sub-contractors are on the hook.

This article outlines the litany of woe facing those who have built a number of CFL stadiums in recent years:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/c...dium-project-beset-by-lawsuits-222406323.html

It takes the reader through the delays and severe cost overruns plaguing Canadian football stadium construction in Ottawa, Vancouver, Winnipeg and Hamilton.

Two other new stadiums built primarily for Major League Soccer clubs were not mentioned in the article.

Toronto's BMO Field is not on the list. The track record in Toronto for building on time and on budget in recent projects (Air Canada Centre and adjoining Maple Leaf Square condo towers, BMO Field, the BioSteel Centre, the Raptors training facility and club HQ and various Pan Am games residences) is probably due to the presence of concrete king Larry Tanenbaum in the ownership group of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment. The ACC was privately funded as was the vast majority of BMO Field's recent $110 million renovation.

Nor is Stade Saputo in Montreal, also a privately funded project by Montreal Impact owner Joey Saputo.


----------



## carnifex2005

Sounds like a lot of those problems were the direct fault of the contractors not doing a good job. Don't blame the stadium owners for withholding payment.


----------



## flashman

Nation wide epidemic of shoddy sports venue workmanship? Are workers tailgating too hard before the morning shift starts?

Building quality issues don't usually extend across such a broad spectrum of trades or services on multiple projects. There's a trend here and it's not flattering the CFL.

The design and building of the distinctive wooden veil on the south stand in Ottawa earned all sorts of praise. It's creator is bankrupt now, owed millions. 

Do you mean to say the general contractor would have allowed such an important and visible aspect of the stadium to be designed, manufactured and installed if there were such heavy issues with it that it didn't merit being paid for?

It beggars belief that incompetent contractor after incompetent contractor could be brought in to provide such important work at such high profile venues that draw in thousands of people at a time. 

How come we aren't learning about similar problems with the building of pro hockey arenas in Canada? We got new NHL barns in Edmonton, Quebec and, not so long ago, Winnipeg. 

It'll be interesting to see how things go with the new NHL arena project in Ottawa. Or, if the river don't rise, Calgary's.


----------



## will101

This is off topic, but happy Thanksgiving to our friends up north.


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## isaidso

Thank you. I'll eat enough turkey for both of us. :colgate:


----------



## isaidso

A recent aerial photo of the new events centre in Moncton, New Brunswick (taken last week).










They plan to have it enclosed before the winter sets in. City council made the decision to increase seat width to 20', which will decrease seating capacity to 8,500 from 9,000. This is somewhat controversial, as the RFP for this project gave bonus points to proponents for increasing the seating capacity as much as possible (within cost constraints).

The arena will have:
20' seats - general admission
22' seats - club seating

The existing Moncton Coliseum has:
18' seats - upper bowl
19' seats - lower bowl


----------



## KingmanIII

^^ Good move. 8500 is still more than enough for a metro area of under 150k and cutting corners just to cram more seats into the bowl only worsens the experience for everyone, especially for non-sellouts.


----------



## isaidso

KingmanIII said:


> ^^ Good move. 8500 is still more than enough for a metro area of under 150k and cutting corners just to cram more seats into the bowl only worsens the experience for everyone, especially for non-sellouts.


Agree. Moncton is growing quite quickly but I don't see the need for more than 8,500 seats. Both their pro hockey and pro basketball teams draw quite a bit less than that per game.


----------



## Cjones2451

isaidso said:


> A recent aerial photo of the new events centre in Moncton, New Brunswick (taken last week).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it me or does Halifax just talk about stuff and Moncton actually does it
> 
> First they built the Moncton Stadium (not what is needed for a CFL team but a start) and not a new arena. Very impressed
Click to expand...


----------



## isaidso

Cjones2451 said:


> Is it me or does Halifax just talk about stuff and Moncton actually does it
> 
> First they built the Moncton Stadium (not what is needed for a CFL team but a start) and not a new arena. Very impressed


No, that's very much in line with how both cities behave. Halifax is used to being #1 in the Maritimes and takes its position for granted. They're not used to competition so lethargy has become part of the culture. Things move at a glacial pace in Halifax. Moncton is very ambitious, nimble, and just seems to try a lot harder. 

Halifax has been talking about a CFL stadium for almost 40 years. By the time they end up building one, most Nova Scotians who were around when the debate begun will be long dead. It's why a lot of young Haligonians pack up and leave. Life's too short to wait your whole life for something to happen.


----------



## Cjones2451

isaidso said:


> No, that's very much in line with how both cities behave. Halifax is used to being #1 in the Maritimes and takes its position for granted. They're not used to competition so lethargy has become part of the culture. Things move at a glacial pace in Halifax. Moncton is very ambitious, nimble, and just seems to try a lot harder.
> 
> Halifax has been talking about a CFL stadium for almost 40 years. By the time they end up building one, most Nova Scotians who were around when the debate begun will be long dead. It's why a lot of young Haligonians pack up and leave. Life's too short to wait your whole life for something to happen.


Its a shame because I really think a CFL team in Halifax could do well and be strong for the league as far as TV ratings in the Maritimes, as well as that elusive 10th team that would inject some fresh blood. They could also add a CPL (Cdn Soccer League that starts in 2018) team to help with dates at a venue as well.


----------



## will101

Cjones2451 said:


> Its a shame because I really think a CFL team in Halifax could do well and be strong for the league as far as TV ratings in the Maritimes, as well as that elusive 10th team that would inject some fresh blood. They could also add a CPL (Cdn Soccer League that starts in 2018) team to help with dates at a venue as well.


Why don't they add a team that would play half of the schedule at each city? Similar to how the Green Bay Packers played roughly half of their schedule in Milwaukee until about 1996.


----------



## isaidso

^^ They could but right now neither city has a suitable stadium. Moncton's stadium is too small and looks more like a CIS stadium. Halifax has nothing that would even be viewed as sufficient for CIS.



Cjones2451 said:


> Its a shame because I really think a CFL team in Halifax could do well and be strong for the league as far as TV ratings in the Maritimes, as well as that elusive 10th team that would inject some fresh blood. They could also add a CPL (Cdn Soccer League that starts in 2018) team to help with dates at a venue as well.


It would do well. Football is popular and a home team would instantly become a big deal and the #1 sports teams by a long shot.

A better pairing than a CPL team would be to build the stadium half way between Saint Mary's University and Dalhousie University. These schools are literally a 7-8 minute walk from one another. You could hold SMU football, CFL, and Dal football all in the same facility. College football would likely draw much better than pro soccer. Dal currently only has 'club football' but the school could easily move up to CIS.

That blue track is SMU's current football stadium. That park on the left hand side is a perfect site for a new stadium. It's downtown, big enough to hold a stadium with lots of green space left over, and would be equidistant between Dal and SMU. I'd tear down that 5 floor 70s building on the upper left of the park and build it there. Land constricted SMU could re-develop Huskies stadium with faculty buildings. 

*South end Halifax and the SMU campus*








Courtesy of oceancanada


----------



## Calvin W

^^^^ Someone call a troll?

Tell us what you really think.


----------



## isaidso

Calvin W said:


> ^^^^ Someone call a troll?
> 
> Tell us what you really think.


It's being dealt with.


----------



## RMB2007

> Group makes ‘very credible’ pitch for Halifax CFL franchise
> 
> A group of businessmen with ties to Eastern Canada would like to make the Canadian Football League’s dream of a tenth franchise come true in Halifax.
> 
> The group made a presentation to the league’s board of governors several weeks ago in Toronto. Meetings have since taken place with various levels of government in Nova Scotia, including an in-camera session with Halifax city council this week that was attended by CFL commissioner Randy Ambrosie.
> 
> *Central to the idea is the construction of a multi-purpose stadium, at one of several locations currently being explored – one of which is the Shannon Park, located next to the A. Murray MacKay Bridge.*
> 
> Commissioner Ambrosie is expected to update the league’s board of governors on the state of the Halifax proposal when they meet the day before Grey Cup Sunday.


www.tsn.ca/group-makes-very-credible-pitch-for-halifax-cfl-franchise-1.917745


----------



## flashman

Long mooted, barely booted political football.

Here's a slightly stale but very thorough assessment of why the proposed Shannon Park stadium site is a poor choice.

Like all good criticism, this offers an intriguing alternative site.

From the very bright minds at Spacing:

http://spacing.ca/atlantic/2015/11/10/stadium-dreams-shannon-park/


----------



## RMB2007

> If the commissioner of the Canadian Football League has it his way, there will be 10 teams in the league under his watch.
> 
> Less than two weeks ago it was confirmed a business group had made a presentation to Halifax City Council about bringing a football team to the city.
> 
> Both Ambrosie and LeBlanc are cautiously optimistic and quickly point to the key piece of the expansion being building a stadium.
> 
> LeBlanc shared exclusive details about the work the group has been doing behind the scenes for months now, specifically on the stadium issue.
> 
> He said the group has five potential stadium sites in Halifax and they're compiling economic impact studies to determine what the best place would be to build it. LeBlanc said he's hired an architect in Los Angeles to produce a stadium rendering that was presented to Halifax council.
> 
> LeBlanc says if everything goes perfectly, they'll get a conditional expansion from the league within the next few months, then continue the dialogue at the municipal and provincial level.
> 
> Then he hopes to have shovels in the ground for a new stadium in a year with kickoff in Halifax happening in 2020.


www.cbc.ca/sports/football/cfl/cfl-commissioner-expansion-halifax-1.4420090


----------



## shhyvoodoo

WOW thats fast! I hope they can really get this done!


----------



## isaidso

shhyvoodoo said:


> WOW thats fast! I hope they can really get this done!


Me too. I've been waiting 35 years. :lol:


----------



## NorthStyle

Well, I have a feast for most of you. Ottawa [Fury] will be the 8th inaugural team btw. I can't believe none of you are talking about this.

Canadian Premier League (Top Tier)

They are going to take Edmonton and Ottawa [Fury] both from their US leagues and make ours bigger.

Main Wiki

New Canadian Soccer Pyramid

Halifax is confirmed btw with stadium at Wanderers Grounds.


----------



## will101

*CFL expansion to Halifax reaches crucial crossroad*

From the CBC:


> The optimism surrounding yet another attempt at CFL expansion to Atlantic Canada has been extremely cautious. Besides, many have said they've been here before only to have the conversation fall flat.
> 
> But since Anthony Leblanc and his business team, Maritime Football, made serious their intention to bring a team to Nova Scotia during Grey Cup week last November, it's felt different.
> 
> Even CFL commissioner Randy Ambrosie has fanned the football expansion flames, saying "it's the unfulfilled part of our national dream to have the Maritimes have a football team," and that it would be a "defining moment" to have a team in the Maritimes.
> 
> They've all been saying the right things.
> 
> Now though, the dream of having a 10th CFL team has reached a pivotal point in the process, one Leblanc says will determine whether or not this will actually happen.


The rest of the article is here.


----------



## Lord David

Expand the darn league already (and I don't mean the US of A).

Give Halifax their team already, when they build a new stadium. 
Put one in Moncton if Moncton Stadium is expanded.
Put one in Quebec City for Quebec-Montreal rivalry.

That's 3 additional teams right there to bring the league up to 12.


----------



## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> Expand the darn league already (and I don't mean the US of A).
> 
> Give Halifax their team already, when they build a new stadium.
> Put one in Moncton if Moncton Stadium is expanded.
> Put one in Quebec City for Quebec-Montreal rivalry.
> 
> That's 3 additional teams right there to bring the league up to 12.


Rome wasn't built in a day. Give it time. Look at Australia, still struggling to extend their main sports across the country and the leagues have been around forever. AFL still lumped around one city, NRL in 3 states.


----------



## Lord David

Calvin W said:


> Rome wasn't built in a day. Give it time. Look at Australia, still struggling to extend their main sports across the country and the leagues have been around forever. AFL still lumped around one city, NRL in 3 states.


AFL struggling? Having teams in Western Australia, South Australia, New South Wales and Queensland, with of course the Victorian teams?

When the VFL became the AFL, the VFL teams simply went along with it. It wasn't decided that a new national competition would comprise of entirely new teams or a higher level team from a select few VFL teams. Who would you pick? It would have simply caused much argument with the VFL clubs if one was chosen over another, whilst proper national expansion was years away (during the 1990's).

Simply put, the CFL is still too small. Their efforts to expand to the US had failed. Just go ahead and expand elsewhere in Canada already.


----------



## Cjones2451

Lord David said:


> Expand the darn league already (and I don't mean the US of A).
> 
> Give Halifax their team already, when they build a new stadium.
> Put one in Moncton if Moncton Stadium is expanded.
> Put one in Quebec City for Quebec-Montreal rivalry.
> 
> That's 3 additional teams right there to bring the league up to 12.


Easier said than done, most levels of government do not want to contribute and the revenue generated from CFL games is not enough for potential owners to take on all the costs. You could add London and Windsor to the list too, but again same issues. Unlike other leagues (Euro soccer leagues etc.) where you can have some smaller clubs with smaller stadiums because the TV and sponsorship money is enough revenue.


----------



## Calvin W

Lord David said:


> AFL struggling? Having teams in Western Australia, South Australia, New South Wales and Queensland, with of course the Victorian teams?
> 
> When the VFL became the AFL, the VFL teams simply went along with it. It wasn't decided that a new national competition would comprise of entirely new teams or a higher level team from a select few VFL teams. Who would you pick? It would have simply caused much argument with the VFL clubs if one was chosen over another, whilst proper national expansion was years away (during the 1990's).
> 
> Simply put, the CFL is still too small. Their efforts to expand to the US had failed. Just go ahead and expand elsewhere in Canada already.


Not to get off topic but as I follow AFL yeah it's struggling outside of Victoria. Check out attendance for games in NSW, Queensland. Yes WA and SA are going ok, but the league has to break away from a traditional Victoria-centric league. Queensland teams can barely crack 10,000 for attendance, same with a lot of NSW games other than Sydney. Hardly a roaring success. 

Anyways back to the CFL. The league should grow, but at it's own pace. Halifax next, then the next two I would look at another Western Team and Quebec team.


----------



## NorthStyle

They are building a 7000 stadium at the Wanderers Grounds for HFX Wanderers FC of the Canadian Premier League. This could be home to the 10th CFL team. They just got to make the stadium bigger, of course, not hard at all because it will be easier to make one for Atlantic Canada.

Wanderers Grounds

If you guys think this league is low ball, you are wrong. It's medium ball (to start), But look they got Victoria, Halifax with professional teams and building stadiums.

I would like to see Quebec City on board with this too.

Look at all the options for expansion teams; Saskatchewan (Regina, Mosaic field), Kitchener Waterloo, London (Ontario), Surrey, Mississauga, Montreal Metro team (Laval), and other Ontario metro areas.

I could see the canpl have 15 professional teams in the future for Canada's most played sport. 

As you can see Winnipeg has it's capacity listed at 33,234 and Hamilton's team at 14,000.

Sidenote: I also heard they might get an expansion team for Hailfax at Scotiabank Centre for a NLL team too. The NLL is pretty Canadian btw.

Let's wait and see.


----------



## Walbanger

Calvin W said:


> Not to get off topic but as I follow AFL yeah it's struggling outside of Victoria. Check out attendance for games in NSW, Queensland. Yes WA and SA are going ok, but the league has to break away from a traditional Victoria-centric league. Queensland teams can barely crack 10,000 for attendance, same with a lot of NSW games other than Sydney. Hardly a roaring success.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways back to the CFL. The league should grow, but at it's own pace. Halifax next, then the next two I would look at another Western Team and Quebec team.




I think you fundamentally misunderstand the Australian sporting landscape. The AFL is not struggling, WA and SA are as much Aussie Rules heartlands as Victoria, their clubs financials and attendance are very healthy (West Coast is the wealthiest club in the league and arguably the biggest). Qld and NSW will always be subsidised as they are Rugby League states with Aussie rules as a niche sport, 3rd or 4th in line behind mentioned Rugby League, Soccer and in some areas Rugby Union. Yet Sydney's original AFL team "the Swans" averages the largest home attendance out of any Sydney based sporting club of any sport at over 32000. Not bad for a non dominant sport in Australia's most fickle sporting city.

Sorry felt i need to correct that.

Back to the CFL


----------



## isaidso

NorthStyle said:


> They are building a 7000 stadium at the Wanderers Grounds for HFX Wanderers FC of the Canadian Premier League. This could be home to the 10th CFL team. They just got to make the stadium bigger, of course, not hard at all because it will be easier to make one for Atlantic Canada.
> 
> Wanderers Grounds
> 
> If you guys think this league is low ball, you are wrong. It's medium ball (to start), But look they got Victoria, Halifax with professional teams and building stadiums.
> 
> I would like to see Quebec City on board with this too.
> 
> Look at all the options for expansion teams; Saskatchewan (Regina, Mosaic field), Kitchener Waterloo, London (Ontario), Surrey, Mississauga, Montreal Metro team (Laval), and other Ontario metro areas.
> 
> I could see the canpl have 15 professional teams in the future for Canada's most played sport.
> 
> As you can see Winnipeg has it's capacity listed at 33,234 and Hamilton's team at 14,000.
> 
> Sidenote: I also heard they might get an expansion team for Hailfax at Scotiabank Centre for a NLL team too. The NLL is pretty Canadian btw.
> 
> Let's wait and see.


*A few notes:*

The Wanderers Grounds is a great location but the lot is very tight. I'm not sure how many more seats above 7,000 they could cram in there. Regina already has a team and Hamilton's stadium seats 24,000.

Every one agrees that the CFL needs more teams but this is still a weak league. They need to do it right rather than fast. Miraculously, a team for Halifax does look like it will happen. If it does happen, I can't see the CFL expanding again till perhaps 2035. Then maybe Quebec City and Saskatoon/Kelowna for 6 teams in each division.


----------



## NorthStyle

isaidso said:


> *A few notes:*
> 
> The Wanderers Grounds is a great location but the lot is very tight. I'm not sure how many more seats above 7,000 they could cram in there. Regina already has a team and Hamilton's stadium seats 24,000.
> 
> Every one agrees that the CFL needs more teams but this is still a weak league. They need to do it right rather than fast. Miraculously, a team for Halifax does look like it will happen. If it does happen, I can't see the CFL expanding again till perhaps 2035. Then maybe Quebec City and Saskatoon/Kelowna for 6 teams in each division.


As in 15 teams, Regina, Quebec City and Hamilton I was talking about the Canadian Premier League, soccer league, not CFL. I also know Hamilton's capacity is 24,000 not 14,000. I was also hoping you would understand that also Hamilton and Winnipeg (still on canpl, Canadian Premier League) listed high numbers of seats, like what I just said, others didn't, what does this mean? Do they intend to use this amount of seats? They may, that's no low ball.

Also I was hoping you understood that I said soccer is Canada's most played sport, if you didn't know already. Wonder what kind of market out there is for professional soccer in Canada. Well, it is Canada's most played sport, it maybe is a big dark horse. 15 teams would be sick. I also see Edmonton and Calgary move into their CFL stadiums, if the Canadian Premier League catches on. York 9 FC also plans to build and move into a modular 15,000 seat stadium in York Region as well. Maybe they already did some market research.

When I mentioned Victoria and Halifax I was talking about the Canadian Premier League as well.


----------



## isaidso

I hope they do well, but the CPL playing in CFL sized stadia is problematic. Soccer may be the most played by some measures but that historically hasn't translated in people watching/attending professional soccer. MLS has changed the profile of soccer in this country so the question now becomes whether that will translate into support for the CPL. That's not a given.


----------



## Cjones2451

Positive news on the Halifax stadium front....story fro Dave Naylor on tsn.ca

Maritime Football Ltd., the group hoping to establish a Canadian Football League expansion franchise in Halifax, hopes to build a 24,000-seat multi-use stadium at Shannon Park, a site located in the north end area of Dartmouth on the eastern shore of Halifax Harbour. 

The stadium, which would cost $170 million to $190 million and wouldn’t be ready before 2021, would be constructed and maintained with both the provincial and municipal government as funding partners.

That information is contained in a document titled “CFL Stadium Proposal Update and Staff Direction” that was posted on the Halifax Regional Municipality’s website Friday morning in advance of the Oct. 30 regional council meeting where a series of recommendations will be presented to council by staff.

Those recommendations include completing a thorough business case analysis on the proposal for a stadium and stadium district development, engaging with the province for permission to contribute financially to a stadium through tax incremental financing or other means, engaging with the prospective owners and the province on potential sources of revenue to finance the stadium, and asking for a final recommendation to proceed or not proceed as a funding partner in a new stadium. 

If approved by council next Tuesday, it’s expected to take at least three months for a final report and recommendation to be completed. 

Shannon Park, one of six sites that were under consideration, is a 95-acre site that was used by the Department of Defence for housing from the early 1950s until 2003. Eighty-five acres of the site are owned by Canada Lands Company (CLC). The prospective team owners are in negotiations with the CLC to purchase a 20-acre segment that would house the stadium, parking and some commercial development.

Shannon Park was previously considered as a stadium site as part of a bid for the 2014 Commonwealth Games and the 2015 Women’s Soccer World Cup, neither of which came to fruition. 

Maritime Football Ltd., founded by businessmen Anthony LeBlanc, Bruce Bowser and Gary Drummond, presented their vision to the CFL in the fall of 2017 and are in the final stages of negotiating with the league for a conditional expansion franchise.

The more challenging part of the equation has always been construction of a stadium. 

The report states that, “It is expected that the [municipality’s] contribution to a stadium would include being a funding partner on the capital cost to construct the stadium as well as possibly being a contributor to ongoing capital repairs and maintenance.”

Some of that funding could come from tax increment funding, where any incremental tax revenues within the stadium district could be directed for development or capital financing. 

The report says debt financing on the stadium is expected to be $9 million to $10 million annually. 

The report also states stadium financing requires the province to become a funding partner, recognizing that the Nova Scotia Premier Stephen McNeil has stated that this would require new sources of revenue, and can’t be drawn from existing ones. It mentions specifically the possibility of an increase to the hotel marketing levy tax or the development of a car rental


----------



## isaidso

edit


----------



## isaidso

Does anyone have information about this design at York University in Toronto? It has a capacity of 25,000 and I'm assuming would be home to the Lions football team.

















Projects York University Stadium – Toronto, ON​

Regarding university football I thought this photos was worth posting. Football's very first game was played at University College, University of Toronto on November 9, 1861. University College is 2 fields up from the current stadium. From humble beginnings it's now one of the most popular sports across Canada and the United States.


*Birthplace of Football*










https://ontariomasters.ca/competitions/ontario-masters-championships/​


----------



## flashman

That York U stadium sketch has to be at least 15 years old. Was one of a few renderings that popped up when discussions were being held about a new stadium to share soccer and CFL football.

Hardly required for the York U Lions football team. The OUA stats show them as having a largest crowd of just over 3,000 and an average per game attendance of 845. They play at York's Alumni Stadium.

The site of the proposed stadium had the Pan-Am games stadium built on it. A much more humble structure and not really a great place to watch any field sport from:











York 9 FC played their inaugural Canadian Premier League soccer season there and are expected to remain for at least another two seasons before building their own innovative stadium nearby, using wood as a principal component. Here's a rendering from the Bear Stadiums website:










There's some decent footprints of land just northwest of the York U campus - in the emerging Vaughan Metropolitan Centre district with good highway access (Hwys. 401 and 7) and the recently opened northern subway line.


----------



## flashman

I'm remiss in not including a link to further information about the interesting stadium concepts Bear Stadiums is offering.

Glulam wood technology, deliverable in components, which allows clients to build a stadium stage-by-stage as their demands grow. 

https://www.bearstadiums.com/en 

This is something the Canadian Premier League soccer clubs should be taking a close look at. It's affordable and scale-able to their needs. Most importantly, it will allow them to pull away from relying on stadium sharing with other sports entities that use plastic pitches. After a promising first season, it's clear that if they intend to attract the attention of a more cultured soccer audience, they have to migrate onto grass playing surfaces.


----------



## flashman

Within a month, the fate of the proposed Halifax stadium will be known.

A recent motion by a city councillor to remove any further municipal interest or participation in the stadium project was turned down by the skin of its teeth - 9-8 in a council vote.

However the mayor of Halifax is hardly drenching this project in optimism

_HRM spokesperson Brendan Elliott said in an email that some further negotiation is possible in the coming weeks ahead of staff making a recommendation to council. 

"In all situations where there are financial implications to consider, there is always room for some back and forth. However, it's safe to say the overall package as it's being presented is the basis for the review and potential recommendations."

The report from staff is expected to return in December, and if council votes down the proposal, there will not be another submission to the city from SSE.

"This has gone on a long time," said Mayor Savage. "This is what they've come up with, so I don't think it's realistic to say to them give us something else. I don't think they'd be interested, and I don't think there's much appetite on council."

On that point, Savage and Anthony LeBlanc appear to agree. "The decision that is made will be final," said LeBlanc. "If it is rejected, yes, we have made an agreement internally within our partnership that we will not be continuing any further."

Council has two meetings scheduled for December, on the 3rd and 10th of the month. The stadium issue is expected to be on the agenda for one of those two meetings.
_
https://www.halifaxtoday.ca/local-n...ure-of-cfl-stadium-says-halifax-mayor-1768568


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## Cjones2451

Looks like the Stadium in Halifax is 1 step closer. The city approved $20M cash towards the stadium, but only if it is in a different spot that was originally chosen

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/halifax...onstruction-of-stadium-for-cfl-team-1.4723130


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## rebelheartous

This looks like a training ground really. And standing lights are so outdated...


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## GunnerJacket

Given the location cost efficiency is the order of the day. Like many venues for MLS in the early days it's about first creating a venue that allows things to happen and make money. Then they can come back later and improve.


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## Cjones2451

GunnerJacket said:


> Given the location cost efficiency is the order of the day. Like many venues for MLS in the early days it's about first creating a venue that allows things to happen and make money. Then they can come back later and improve.


Agreed, at this point Halifax has been trying to get something (any type of stadium really) like this done for 40 years, anything would be better than what they currently have


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## MAHS1989

personally, i think that cities like moncton, quebec, saskatoon, etc; these cities should have multipurpose stadiums (soccer, rugby and athletics), these cities could take the example of this stage in palmira, colombia, with a capacity of 15-20k, here a link:






besides, cities like halifax, st. john's, etc; these cities could take the example of this stage in quillota, chile, with a capacity of 15-20k, but imagine that the cities could complete it completely, in addition to that these stages can be used for football, rugby, soccer, etc, here a link:






greetings from colombia


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