# HONG KONG / CHINA | High Speed Rail



## hkskyline

*High-speed rail link will slash travel times to Beijing, Shanghai *
Hong Kong Standard
Wednesday, April 23, 2008










Hong Kong will become the staging point for fast-track trips to a host of mainland cities after the green light was given for a HK$39.5 billion rail link connecting the city to Guangzhou and Shenzhen.

Due for completion in 2014/2015, when it will be fully integrated with the mainlands rail network, the link starting in West Kowloon will cut travel times between Hong Kong and Beijing and Shanghai from the current 24 and 20 hours to 10 and eight, respectively.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Eva Cheng Yu-wah said: The integration into West Kowloon will greatly enhance the prominence of the rail link as the gateway to mainland China.

Travel times between Hong Kong and Guangzhou will be cut in half to 48 minutes, officials said, and the link will dovetail into other networks all over the mainland from the Guangzhou hub.

The Hong Kong section a 26-kilometer underground track on which trains will run at speeds of up to 200 kilometers per hour was endorsed by the Executive Council yesterday.

Cheng said the initial construction cost will be paid by the government while the MTR Corporation (0066) will be given the right to operate the line for 50 years through the payment of annual concession fees under a build-operate- transfer arrangement that is similar to one reached for the Sha Tin-to-Central link.

Profits will be shared on a ratio of nine to one between the government and the MTRC.

The Express Rail Link will run from a terminus in West Kowloon the only stop
in Hong Kong through stops in Futian and Longhua in Shenzhen, and Humen in Dongguan before the journey ends at Shibi in Guangzhou.

Cheng said the government believes the area around the terminus, which will extend into the West Kowloon cultural district, will become a new commercial center as well as a transport hub.

The integration into West Kowloon will greatly enhance the district as a regional cultural hub, she said.

Fares for the journey have yet to be determined as they will be subject to talks the government will hold with mainland authorities.

Fares of the existing through-train service will be the starting point of reference.

Cheng said 37 percent of travelers on the new express link are expected to be new passengers, meaning the rest would be people currently using other means of transport like the through train or the cross-boundary coaches.

She expects the terminus to accommodate 10 trains, both ways, an hour, though the number of trains will be Leg 1based on market forces. Cheng also pointed out the development rights for the site above the West Kowloon terminus - at 5.8 hectares - will not be granted to the MTR. Instead it will be given to the Development Bureau for normal land auction procedures.

There will be pedestrian crossings linking the three stations in the area - the West Kowloon terminus which will Leg 2have 14 terminals, the West Kowloon Station on the Kowloon Southern Link, as well as the existing Kowloon station.

Work is expected to commence next year after gaining funding approval from the Legislative Council.

Cheng said the project will create 5,000 jobs during construction and another 10,000 afterwards.

MTRC chief executive Chow Leg 3Chung-kong welcomed the endorsement, saying fares will be competitive.

Legco transport panel chairman, Democrat Andrew Cheng Kar-foo, said he was opposed to the government's granting operating rights to the MTR.

He said public bidding would have allowed for the possibility of cheaper fares.


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## honwai1983

From MTRC Webpage (http://www.mtr.com.hk)










Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link











Proposed Express Rail Link (Hong Kong Section)


Estimated Journey Time

Futian, Shenzhen 14 min
Longhua, Shenzhen 23 min
Shibi, Guangzhou 48 min
Changsha, Hunan 4 hours
Nanning, Guangxi 5 hours
Fuzhou, Fujian 5 hours
Wuhan, Hubei 5 hours
Shanghai 8 hours
Beijing 10 hours
Chengdu, Sichuan 12 hours


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## Aboveday

Source: Environmental Protection Department


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## Songoten2554

so it will be mostly underground or thats only with the hong kong section?

but is this will be classified as HSR?


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## hkskyline

This will be HSR and most of the Hong Kong portion will be underground due to the terrain.


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## hkskyline

*Underground station construction begins *
21 August 2008
South China Morning Post

Work started in Shenzhen yesterday on the mainland's first main-line underground railway station.

The project will form part of the planned Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail link, connecting Hong Kong to the nation's high-speed rail network, mainland media reported.

The Shenzhen Municipal Urban Planning Bureau said the new three-storey station in Futian district, the city's booming commercial area, would be a passenger transfer hub for the Pearl River Delta's intercity rail network, Xinhua reported.

One floor of the underground project will be occupied by the express rail station, another will be used to connect to Shenzhen's metro system, and the third will house a ticketing hall.

Passengers will have to take the subway to reach the express rail line because the underground station will not have car parking.

Xinhua said the expected travelling time between Guangzhou and Shenzhen would be 33 minutes, and 27 minutes between Shenzhen and Hong Kong.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link is a proposed 142km express line to connect the major Guangdong centres of Guangzhou, Dongguan and Shenzhen with Hong Kong, and is to be completed by 2014.

All of the infrastructure for the project, including tracks and stations, will be built from scratch.

The express line is expected to boost the inflow of people and goods to Hong Kong and the most developed areas of Guangdong. The Hong Kong government expects the line to carry 100,000 passengers a day by 2020 and 120,000 by 2030.

Later, commuters will be able to switch to such express long-haul services as the proposed Beijing-Guangzhou and Hangzhou -Fuzhou -Shenzhen passenger lines. Those two lines are expected to be completed around 2015.

Hong Kong rail travellers will be able to reach Beijing in 10 hours, compared with 20-plus hours now.


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## hkskyline

*Route of express rail link shifted to avoid older districts *
1 October 2008
South China Morning Post

The MTR Corporation has amended its plans for the multibillion-dollar cross-border express rail link between Guangzhou and Hong Kong by shifting its route westwards to avoid densely built-up older districts in its southern Hong Kong section.

The new alignment of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link was published yesterday in a submission by the rail operator to the Environmental Protection Department.

The corporation described the new alignment as "optimised" after studying proposals to "enhance the overall rail network for the benefits of the local community and by taking account of all interfacing projects and constraints".

The rail link will enhance Hong Kong's transport links with the mainland. Estimated to cost HK$39.5 billion, it is expected to shorten the rail journey to Guangzhou from nearly two hours to 48 minutes.

The line, construction of which is expected to begin next year for operation by 2015, will run underground and there will be no station between its terminus in West Kowloon and Futian station in Shenzhen.

The corporation said the length of the Hong Kong section of the line remained at 26km under the revised plan, but its southern section had been shifted westwards to avoid going underneath Sham Shui Po and Shek Kip Mei and their clusters of old buildings. Instead, the line would run under Nam Cheong, Lai Chi Kok and Kwai Chung.

A graded historical building would now not face any effects from the project, but the old Lai Chi Kok Hospital was added to buildings that might be affected. Ventilation buildings for the line were also repositioned under the new plan.

Affected areas might be exposed to noise during construction, which the MTR has pledged to mitigate. It said that in soft ground, the tunnel would be constructed mainly by a tunnel-boring machine, and drill and blast techniques in rock strata.

"The changes are made to avoid the areas with many buildings to minimise impacts on residents and the traffic," said a spokeswoman, who could not say at this stage whether the change would lower or raise costs.

She rejected suggestions that the move was to reduce potential effects of tunnelling on old and poorly maintained buildings in Sham Shui Po, saying the tunnel - at a depth of 30 metres - would have minimal effect on the land surface.

Yau Tsim Mong district council member Chan Man-yau said the council had not been informed about the alignment changes, though the MTR Corp had agreed to report on progress next week.

He said that while the council would need further details about the project to gauge the effects of construction on the district, he believed the new alignment might attract more complaints than the old one.

"The previous alignment would have gone beneath the old district. Now it will go through newly developed zones, and residents there will certainly make more noise about the project," he said.


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## Kuvvaci

nice project


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## Sen

how did they get 10hr travel time between HK and Beijing? currently it takes 10hr for the CRH train to run from Shanghai to Beijing, which is less than half of the distance between HK and Beijing.
They need 350km/h trains at least if they are going to achieve this.


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## hkskyline

Sen said:


> how did they get 10hr travel time between HK and Beijing? currently it takes 10hr for the CRH train to run from Shanghai to Beijing, which is less than half of the distance between HK and Beijing.
> They need 350km/h trains at least if they are going to achieve this.


Aren't they talking about the future HSR?

Currently, it takes approximately 24 hours to reach Beijing by train.


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## hkth

HK Gov't Press Release:

Gazettal of Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link

HK Gov't Gazette:
Railways Ordinance (Chapter 519) (Notice under section 6(4))--Hong Kong Section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link

Layout Plans from the Highways Dep't


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## hkskyline

*Direct trains to Guangzhou put cross-border links back on track *
28 November 2008
South China Morning Post

Choi Wai-hang was one of the frequent travellers on the Guangzhou-Kowloon through trains in the early days of its resumption of service in 1979.

He knows well how the service made the cross-border journey less tiresome. After the through service between Guangzhou and Kowloon was suspended in 1949, travellers from Hong Kong had to cross the border on foot to Shenzhen to catch another train to Guangzhou after the Kowloon-Canton train from Hung Hom reached Lo Wu.

"We used to catch a train from Hung Hom at 7am and would not arrive in Guangzhou until 3pm or 4pm that day.

"It's hard for the younger generation to imagine that a trip between Hong Kong and Guangzhou would take up to nine hours," said Mr Choi, director of Reiss, Bradley and Company, a British trading firm in Hong Kong in the late 1970s.

The direct service between the two cities opened in 1911 but was suspended in 1949 after the founding of the People's Republic of China. Starting from the late 1950s, Mr Choi used to travel to Guangzhou to attend the China Import and Export Fair, popularly known as the Canton Fair, held twice a year in the spring and autumn. The Canton Fair, which was inaugurated in 1957, is the mainland's largest trade fair.

"Until the late 1970s, you could not return to the mainland unless you held a permit applied for by your relatives on the mainland or an invitation issued by Canton Fair organisers," Mr Choi explains.

Cross-border journeys became easier following the re-introduction of direct trains to Guangzhou on April 4, 1979, a few months after the mainland embarked on the path of opening up and reform.

Hong Kong 1980, the colonial government's annual report, described the resumption after a 30-year suspension as "the most momentous event" of 1979 for the Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation.

The trains were air conditioned with 640 reclining seats.

"There was only a pair of trains operating daily between Hong Kong and Guangzhou in 1979 and the fare for a single trip was about HK$20," Mr Choi said. "Most passengers were Hong Kong businessmen and people visiting their relatives on the mainland."

Mr Choi, who is a veteran specialist in China's trade and a former Hong Kong deputy to the National People's Congress, said a journey between Kowloon and Guangzhou on a through train took nearly four hours in the late 1970s.

"It was just half the time spent before the resumption of the through train service and we no longer had to get off the train in Lo Wu and walk across the border to catch another train," he said. "From then on, it became more convenient for us to travel to the mainland."

There are now 12 pairs of trains operating daily between Hong Kong and Guangzhou and the journey time is 100 minutes. The fare for a single journey is HK$190. However, the travel time to the provincial capital is set to be cut by at least half, thanks to a rail link set to be completed in 2014-2015, under a HK$39.5 billion cross-border project approved early this year.

Under the project, Hong Kong will be integrated with the mainland's rail network. Starting in West Kowloon, the link will cut travel time between Hong Kong and Guangzhou by 48 minutes, from the 100 minutes of the Kowloon-Guangzhou link, and will dovetail with all mainland networks from the Guangzhou hub.

KCRC operations were merged with those of the MTR Corporation in December last year.


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## hkskyline

*高鐵港段料創逾萬職*
29/11/2008









【本報訊】港府昨日在憲報刊登廣深港高速鐵路香港段（高鐵）鐵路方案，預計建造工程可於明年年底展開，於二○一四或一五年完成。該項目在施工期及營運期可分別創造約五千五百及一萬個職位。

港府發言人表示，高鐵項目包括一個設在西九龍的總站，一條由西九龍延伸至皇崗邊界的專用隧道，藉以連接鐵路的內地段。透過接駁毗鄰的機鐵線九龍站，以及未來九龍南線柯士甸站，高鐵乘客可方便前往本港不同地方。

發言人謂，高鐵乘客將來前往深圳和廣州，分別只需約十五分鐘及五十分鐘，即比現時來往粵港的城際鐵路快一倍。


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## hkskyline

An alternate route in addition to the West Kowloon HSR : 

*Airport rail link may connect to local network *
8 December 2008
South China Morning Post

The planned high-speed rail link between Hong Kong and Shenzhen airports may hook up with Hong Kong's local railway network in a bid to create a larger pool of passengers and boost development in the northwestern New Territories, sources said.

That means the express rail link, originally planned as a direct link taking just 17 minutes to travel between the two airports, would have a stop connecting it to West Rail.

The stop would be in Yuen Long or Tuen Mun, and the government is looking at which option would offer the best opportunities. Tuen Mun councillors have been mobilising the community to fight for the station to be built there, but a source said the government was leaning towards Yuen Long.

"New developments are planned in Yuen Long and it is close to the [Lok Ma Chau] checkpoint, so it may allow more people to use the rail," a government source said.

A feasibility study on the rail link, which will include information on its route and estimated cost, will be released by the end of this month.

Having a stop in Yuen Long would not only provide people in Futian with a fast track to Chek Lap Kok airport, but it would also allow mainland passengers a shorter trip to centres such as Tsim Sha Tsui.

However, the government is still debating if the station should be built at the same time as the rail link.

"Construction of a rail line takes at least eight to 10 years after it is proposed, so even if early passenger forecasts do not support the construction of a stop, by the time the rail line is finished the situation could be quite different," a government source said.

The idea of a high-speed rail link that will shorten journeys between Chek Lap Kok and Shenzhen Baoan International airport from an hour to about 20 minutes was first proposed by the Bauhinia Foundation, a think-tank close to the government, in August last year.

*The express link would not open before 2016 - several years behind an intercity rail link between Shenzhen airport and Guangzhou, expected to begin running in 2011.

The 12.5 billion yuan (HK$14 billion) Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen rail link will connect to the Hong Kong-Shenzhen airport route.*

Bauhinia Foundation researcher Zhu Wenhui said the connection would give the airport railway nearly 30 million potential passengers.

"With or without Hong Kong, the railway loop that links up the entire Pearl River Delta will be completed in a few years, so we can hook up or we can be left out," Dr Zhu said.

Law Cheung-kwok, associate director of the Aviation Policy and Research Centre at Chinese University, has warned that the cost of the railway would not be sustainable as there are already many cross-border transport choices offered at Hong Kong airport.


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## urbanfan89

^^ Would this entail direct express trains between the HK airport and Shenzhen? If that happens then the Lantau Island railway line will have to be regauged by 3 mm.


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## hkskyline

I'm not sure whether this is going to be a new railway or an extension of the Airport Express line. But it will be a new line to be built, and may not need regauging the existing lines if it is completely new infrastructure and not an extension.


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## hkskyline

*廣深港鐵路毀滅家園 *
11 December 2008
太陽報

【太陽報專訊】耗資四百億元的廣深港高速鐵路香港段近日終於刊憲，徵詢市民意見。廣深港高速鐵路不但耗資大量公帑，更對不少市民的生活環境構成嚴重影響，但關注該等工程的社會人士卻寥寥可數，此現象令筆者極為憂慮。事實上，廣深港高速鐵路自劃定路線開始，已經犯下極大錯誤。

多年前，政府向立法會提交文件，就廣深港高速鐵路香港段的路線提出兩個方案，其中一個方案是連接現時的西鐵網絡，以錦上路為香港段的終點站；另一個方案是獨立選線，由深圳邊境直達西九龍文化藝術區。當時筆者強烈反對獨立選線方案，認為此方案會令新界東以及新界西數以百萬計市民，必須花費大量時間，才可前往西九使用高速鐵路服務。

反之，若以錦上路為終點站，新界東及新界西的市民便可透過西鐵網絡，快捷地前往廣深港高速鐵路香港段的終點站。此外，以西九為終點站，意味?廣深港高速鐵路香港段的長度必會大增，更多市民必會被鐵路工程影響，而收回土地所須作出的賠償金額亦會大增。可惜的是，當時大部分議員並沒有意識到問題的嚴重性，貿然支持獨立選線的方案，當時政府對公眾作出的諮詢工作更是十分馬虎，絕大多數市民無從得知廣深港高速鐵路的具體內容。

結果，此等對社會影響極大的方案，最終在沒有爭議的情況下獲得通過。最近當局將廣深港高速鐵路香港段刊憲，並設有網頁，上載了大量與鐵路規劃及收地有關的圖則，不少市民才得知自己的土地被收回，或驚覺廣深港高速鐵路將會在門前經過。所謂亡羊補牢，未為晚也，現在距離諮詢期截止日期尚有兩個月，希望市民可以關注鐵路對自己權益構成的影響。如市民漠視此寶貴機會，政府一錘定音，落實工程，屆時才感到後悔便會為時已晚。


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## hkskyline

*Villagers take protest over rail link to the roads *
22 December 2008
South China Morning Post

New Territories villagers who fear their homes will be destroyed to make way for a section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong rail link staged a slow-drive protest yesterday.

Thirteen cars and 250 villagers from Tsoi Yuen Tsuen, a farming community of 500 in Shek Kong, made their way slowly from the village, along Kam Tin Road to Kam Sheung Road MTR station.

Albert Chan Wai-yip and Wong Sing-chi, lawmakers for the New Territories West and East constituencies, respectively, and three district council members joined the rally.

They were protesting that the Lands Department had not given them a chance to voice their concerns about the proposed rail link.

Up to October, information on the link indicated it would run through eight villages, which did not include Tsoi Yuen Tsuen, said Ko Chun-heung, chairwoman of a concern group on the rail link's construction impact on the village.

"But suddenly, in November, the Lands Department put up notices saying they would take the land and that villagers would have to leave, and they sent people to take measurements," she said.

The Government Gazette of November 28 said a 16km underground section of the rail link would connect a terminus in West Kowloon to a proposed rescue station at Shek Kong.

Ms Ko said the Lands Department had not given them a chance to comment after the government gazetted the plan and before the Lands Department took measurements.

Shek Kong village head Raymond Tang Wai-man, who did not take part yesterday but who says he supports the protesters, said he did not know about the plan until it appeared in the Gazette.

Ms Ko, 48, whose family have lived in Shek Kong for three generations, said two-thirds of the villagers had lived on the land for three or four generations, and 10 per cent were over 60.

The Development Bureau, which oversees the Lands Department, said it could not comment on the protest.


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## EricIsHim

hkskyline said:


> I'm not sure whether this is going to be a new railway or an extension of the Airport Express line. But it will be a new line to be built, and may not need regauging the existing lines if it is completely new infrastructure and not an extension.


I would imagine that will be a new line separating from the existing Airport Express.


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## EricIsHim

hkskyline said:


> *Villagers take protest over rail link to the roads *
> 22 December 2008
> South China Morning Post


Isn't the purpose of the Gazette to obtain public opinion and concern regarding on the project? And thereafter revise the design accordingly. The currently alignment isn't final and still subjects to change. People seem to be misled the design is done and their is gone for sure. It is the time to raise your voice now if you are concerned.


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## hkskyline

First posted : http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=506183&page=5

*港跨境基建融入內地 *










【明報專訊】擬於2014至15年建成通車的廣深港高速鐵路，將會全面接駁內地3層鐵路網，包括全國高速鐵路網、區域城際鐵路網，以及深圳市和廣州市的城市地鐵網。鑑於通往北京的高鐵可能較廣深港高鐵更早落成，港府準備利用9個地底隧道鑽挖機同時間開工，希望提早一年在2014年通車。

9部隧道鑽掘機擬齊開工

全國的高鐵網會分段落成，至2020年全面開通，而來往北京至武漢的京武段，以及廣深港高鐵的內地段將於2012至13年開通，武漢至廣州則稍遲，但在國家4萬億人民幣刺激經濟方案下，落成日期可能提早；但高鐵香港段要待2015年才可啟用。消息人士解釋，香港早年用了很長時間討論高鐵用現西鐵線還是用專線的問題，這些時間已不能追回。

但他指出，香港段主要於地面下，為加快工程速度，政府計劃使用9個，幾乎是全球所有隧道鑽挖機同步開工。

廣深港高鐵駁通3層鐵路網

政府消息指出，當廣深港高鐵建成後，將可接駁內地3層鐵路網，第一層是全國的高鐵網，屆時香港往北京只需10小時(現25小時)，往上海只需8小時(現20小時)。高鐵速度有如日本的新幹線、法國的TGV。

至於第二層，鐵路可轉至其他區域城際鐵路，廣深港高鐵終站為石壁，將是全國最大鐵路樞紐，列車可通往全國各地；亦可經深圳龍華站或福田站，轉至通往杭州、福建的杭福深專線或至廣東全省的穗莞深城際鐵路。另外，廣州石壁、深圳龍華和福田，均接駁廣州和深圳的地鐵網，這屬第三層接駁。

消息表示，高鐵的終站將設在新建的西九龍站，發展成熟後，可每5分鐘開出一班城際鐵路，每日可開出20班長途直通的高速列車。


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## hkskyline

*Explanation sought over plan to sacrifice seafront to terminus *
19 March 2009
South China Morning Post

A watchdog has challenged the MTR Corporation's plan to take up a large portion of seafront within the West Kowloon Cultural District to build a cross-border railway terminus, fearing it will sacrifice opportunities to open up the harbourfront for public enjoyment.

The Harbourfront Enhancement Committee yesterday refused to support the plan until the Home Affairs Bureau, the co-ordinator of the arts-hub project, offered an explanation.

The terminus for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail link will take up 8 hectares, or one-fifth of land within the cultural district, including one site previously used as a drive-in cinema and exhibition area, as a temporary works area.

Building work will occupy the sites until between 2013 and 2015, when the first phase of the arts hub is expected to start operating.

"We cannot give our blessing to your plan and pre-empt the West Kowloon Cultural District without knowing what the arts hub is doing," said Vincent Ng Wing-shun, chairman of the Harbourfront Enhancement Committee's subcommittee on harbour plan review. "You are taking away the opportunity to beautify the harbourfront."

Mr Ng also wondered whether the MTR Corp would compensate by beautifying other waterfront sites.

Another committee member, Paul Zimmerman, said he was amazed the MTR Corp had taken up a lot of land in Kennedy Town and Wan Chai and wondered whether it had minimised the space required.

Tang Pak-hung, the MTR Corp's project liaison manager, said the "gigantic" terminus would need the seafront sites so five berths could be built for vessels to remove 4.83 million cubic metres of excavated materials for disposal, and for building two 25-metre-high plants to make concrete for the terminus.


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## hkskyline

*專家倡高鐵提速 穗港半小時可達 *
28 February 2009
文匯報

【本報珠三角新聞中心記者唐苗苗廣州27日電】《珠三角改革發展規劃綱要》提出，要將粵港澳建成具全球競爭力的大都市圈。有專家認為，三地要融合，跨境交通設施的建設尤為重要，因此建議正籌劃興建的廣深港高鐵香港段的時速，提高至350公里，屆時穗港之間半小時即可到達，真正實現「高速」。據悉，香港工聯會將於下周一向特區政府提交這項建議。

工聯會物流交通委員會顧問、廣東研究珠三角港澳區域交通的專家鄭天祥透露，工聯會將於下周一攜粵港兩地專家向特區政府提交關於香港物流交通發展的建議，包括建議將廣深港高鐵香港段的設計時速，由現時的200公里提高至350公里，及修建屯門至珠海的輕軌，作為港珠澳大橋的補充，來應對兩地迅猛增加的跨境客流。

鄭天祥說，目前廣深港高鐵香港段的設計時速是200公里，建好後從廣州到香港需時48分鐘，雖然已是香港最高速的鐵路，但已遠遠落後於內地某些地區的高鐵，如奧運前開通運營的京津城際鐵路，以及日前開工的滬杭高鐵，設計時速都已達到350公里，更無法與世界發達地區的基建相比。

港段時速改350公里

鄭天祥說，高鐵如果繼續按200公里的時速進行建設，與現時廣深鐵路的速度一樣，「高速」名不符實。他建議，趁現時高鐵廣深段還未鋪地軌，香港段還未開工建設，兩地應盡快研究修改方案，將高鐵時速提至350公里，這樣穗港之間半小時即可到達，真正實現「高速」。

修建屯門至珠海輕軌

此外，鄭天祥還建議，香港應在屯門修建輕軌，經內伶仃島、淇澳島連接珠海，形成「A」字形框架連接珠三角西岸。鄭天祥說，香港回歸以來，粵港兩地跨境客流迅猛增長，從1997年的1億人次增長到2007年的2億人次，翻了一番。再加上現時《綱要》鼓勵兩地融合，人員往來粵港的限制正逐步放寬，以後將實現非粵籍居民亦可經廣東往香港，料2020年粵港跨境客流將達到4億人次。如果修建連接屯門與珠海的輕軌，屯門段與西鐵相接，香港有了過境鐵路，可提前為客流猛增做好準備。


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## hkskyline

*城市群帶動一體化*
4月1日 星期三 05:10

【明報專訊】香港回歸12 年，與中國大陸的地區聯繫愈趨頻繁，加上大型基建如港珠澳大橋 、廣深港高鐵進一步落實興建，泛珠三角 地區更趨向一體化。最近國務院更原則上通過了把長三角城市群的中心城市-上海 -發展成另一個金融中心，與香港並駕齊驅，這都反映了香港已納入中國城市群發展的藍圖中，勢將和其他城市配合發展。

珠江三角洲

人口﹕

據深圳 市政府網站資料顯示，目前深圳總人口超過1200萬，其中深圳戶籍人口210多萬，常住人口800多萬，而整個珠三角則接近5000萬。香港政府統計處 2008年資料顯示，約21萬於內地工作的港人中，42.3%為專業及輔助專業人員

經濟概况﹕

2008年珠三角人均GDP達62,644元（人民幣，下同）。07年珠三角地區生產總值2.5萬億元，佔全國比重為10.2%

發展背景﹕

•中國改革開放以前，珠三角一帶主要是農地和小村落。1985年以後，經濟改革，大量資金湧入。工資低廉，政策配合，珠三角吸納了來自香港的商人設廠，使該地成為製造業的基地

•03 年「9+2 泛珠三角區域合作」展開，把珠江三角洲進一步擴大至泛珠三角，抱括香港和澳門 

•03年中國政府及香港政府簽訂《內地與香港建立關於更緊密經貿關係的安排》（CEPA ），合資格的港資或外資企業及個體戶，可獲優先進入內地市場，甚至獲得寬減關稅的優惠待遇。03年「9+2泛珠三角區域合作」展開，加強了珠三角地區的合作

近年基建﹕

•港珠澳大橋﹕主體部分總長36公里，連接香港、廣東省珠海市和澳門，由香港開車至珠海及澳門，將從4至5小時縮短到約30分鐘，預計09年動工

•港深機鐵﹕乃連接香港和深圳機場的高速鐵路，直接貫通廣州新火車站，由前海的候機樓前往兩地機場，分別只需10分鐘，來往兩地機場，亦只需17 分鐘。工程可望於09年拍板

•廣深港高鐵﹕連接香港西九龍總站、深圳福田、龍華和東莞虎門，直達新廣州站，全程只需48分鐘，較現時的行車時間縮短一半，希望在2014 年通車

經濟模式﹕

珠三角由一個農業為主的地區轉變為一個重要的國際製造業平台。珠三角是電子製品、電器產品、電子零件、鐘表、玩具、衣服、紡織、塑膠製品及其他產品的國際領導重鎮

旅遊熱點﹕

中山石岐、廣州市番禺區長隆水上樂園、珠海御溫泉、海南西樵山等

未來發展方向﹕

•《珠江三角洲地區改革發展規劃綱要》（2008-2020）﹕政務司 長唐英年 指出，綱要中經常出現的關鍵詞是﹕分工合作、共同發展、優勢互補、錯位發展，並指應從有利於全局、配合國家發展戰略的角度去看

•廣佛同城﹕廣州、佛山於09年3月簽署《廣佛同城化建設合作框架協議》，兩地將設立聯席會議、專責小組等合作機制，就環保、產業、規劃、交通基建4個領域簽署具體合作方案

長江三角洲

人口﹕

據國家統計局資料顯示，07年上海市人口達1858萬。長江三角洲覆蓋人口佔全國的11％，約1.3億人

經濟概况﹕

長三角人均GDP由1978年的797元提高到2007年的55,930元。08年16個城市中，居民人均可支配收入有12個城市超過20,000元，平均收入達到22,110元。長三角16城市實現地區生產總值達到4.7萬億元，佔全國比重為18.8%

發展背景﹕

1997年長江三角洲城市經濟協調會正式成立，每兩年舉行一次正式會議。08年，國務院頒發《國務院關於進一步推進長江三角洲地區改革開放和經濟社會發展的指導意見》，正式確立長三角為江蘇省、浙江省和上海市兩省一市全境，蘇北和浙西南被納入長三角

經濟模式﹕

長三角集中了近半數的全國經濟百強縣，聚集着近100個年工業產值超過100億元的產業園區。上海更是國際經濟、金融、貿易和航運中心之一。長三角目前擁有多家金融類上市公司，涵蓋銀行、證券、信託、保險等領域

近年基建﹕

•合寧鐵路08年4月18日正式開通，合肥至南京間運行時間最短59分鐘，合肥至上海最快約3小時

•滬寧城際鐵路起自上海，經崑山、蘇州、無錫、常州、丹陽、鎮江至南京，正線全長300公里，於08年7月1日開工建設

•寧安城際鐵路起自江蘇南京，經安徽省馬鞍山、蕪湖、銅陵、池州，跨長江後進入安慶，全長達258公里

•崇啟大橋連接上海崇明與江蘇啟東，位於長江入海口，2012年全線通車後，啟東到上海只需一個多小時

旅遊熱點﹕

無錫太湖 、上海黃浦江、蘇州園林、杭州西湖、南京中山陵等

未來發展方向﹕

•《長江三角洲地區道路運輸一體化規劃綱要》﹕為道路旅客運輸、道路貨物運輸、汽車維修保障3個方面；到2020年建立起工業園區、貨物集散中心、物流基地（中心）、保稅區（中心）、貨運市場與內河港、鐵路集裝箱（貨櫃箱）中心站、海港互動的集裝箱運輸體系

•「工業轉型升級321」﹕長三角工業朝「321」方向發展。「3」就是「促新、提優、汰劣」；「2」是突出兩大重點，即發展生產性服務業、積極推進企業整合重組；「1」則指構建一個佈局科學、結構優化、特色鮮明的現代工業產業體系

京津冀

人口﹕

據國家統計局資料顯示，07年北京 市、天津 市及河北省（冀）人口超過9500萬

經濟概况﹕

截至2007年底，京津冀地區的經濟總量達到2.5萬億元，佔全國經濟總量的10.2%，而環渤海地區生產總值3.2萬億元，佔全國比重為13%

發展背景﹕

北京是中國的政治文化中心 ，北京和天津擁有全國數一數二的經濟技術開發區，河北則是著名旅遊區。加上經濟網絡進一步發展至山東半島城市群，成為環渤海經濟圈。根據《環渤海區域經濟發展報告（2008）》，藍皮書指出，繼20世紀80年代的珠三角、90年代的長三角之後，環渤海地區正在成為中國經濟的第三個崛起的經濟圈

經濟模式﹕

京津冀城市群是中國重化工業、裝備製造業和高新技術產業基地

近年基建﹕

•高速公路﹕京包高速（六環—德勝口）、西六環（良鄉—寨口）、機場南線、京津第二通道、京承三期和京平高速6條高速公路

•城際客運鐵路﹕京津、京石、京秦、津唐和津保城際鐵路，比駕車走高速公路要省一半時間

旅遊熱點﹕

北京故宮、長城、頤和園 ；河北承德避暑山莊

未來發展方向﹕

根據《北京市「十一五 」時期基礎設施發展規劃》，基本形成以北京、天津為核心，方圓500公里區域內重要城市間的陸路「3小時交通圈」，朝向「立足天津」、「依託北京」、「服務環渤海」、「輻射 『三北』」，面向東北亞發展

文﹕羅樂敏


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## hoosier

Is there anyway you could translate that into English?


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## hkskyline

You can try various translation engines, such as Altavista Babelfish, to get a rough idea of the contents :
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt


*高鐵建車廠 村民拒拆遷 *
4月12日 星期日 06:30

(星島日報報道)十大基建之一、耗資約四百五十億元的廣深港高速鐵路香港段，早前選定於石崗菜園村附近興建鐵路車廠及緊急救援站。政府要求該村居民在明年十一月前遷出，受影響約有五十戶共五百多人。村民批評政府事前沒有諮詢，且在刊憲後馬上派人在村內張貼清拆令，沒有給予他們選擇的餘地。他們稱由於自己不是原居民，因此遭到「欺負」，堅持「不遷、不拆」，要求政府重新選址及重新諮詢。

昨日路政署官員聯同港鐵職員，出席在石崗菜站舉行的答問大會，與菜園村居民交流，立法會 議員李卓人 及何秀蘭 亦有出席。與會村民表示，菜園村是他們落地生根的地方，不少更是紮根逾半世紀的老人家，若遷往公屋或其他地方生活，恐怕未能適應。李卓人指政府沒有提出過一個令村民相信可以在遷址後，維持原有生活方式的方案，他會要求立法會盡快召開公聽會討論事件。

有關注團體代表質疑，菜園村附近有多個已空置多時的廠房及空地，為何政府偏選在該村建車廠。他們早前曾提出三個替代方案，但均被政府否決。何秀蘭則表示，政府有必要交代選址的詳細原因，並應公開所有相關資料。

港鐵高級統籌工程師李永孝表示，選址主要考慮幾個因素，包括馬路接駁、地理環境及方便救援部隊進入隧道等，並以對社區影響最少為原則，最後得出結論為目前的方案最可行。他原先準備解釋由關注團體提出的三個替代方案為何行不通，但因被指在地圖上劃錯替代方案的地點，引起村民起哄而被逼中斷發言。

路政署副署長何偉富表示，高鐵走綫限制很大，但路政署會繼續諮詢，聆聽及考慮各方面的建議，作出更專業的評估，務求達到雙贏的方案。他指出政府已與數戶住在菜園村邊緣地區的居民達成協議，故會改動圖則繞過他們的住處，又強調在清拆方案中，沒有考慮當中對象是否原居民。


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## taikoo.city

hkskyline said:


> You can try various translation engines, such as Altavista Babelfish, to get a rough idea of the contents :
> http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_txt


Or you can quote articles from South China Morning Post instead~


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## hkskyline

*Airport rail link to cost 52 billion yuan *
7 May 2009
South China Morning Post

An intercity rail link connecting Hong Kong and Shenzhen airports is expected to cost nearly 52 billion yuan (HK$59 billion) to shorten the travelling time from an hour to 24 minutes, Shenzhen authorities said yesterday.

Shenzhen officials said in a study expected to be given to Hong Kong next month that the rail link was "feasible and would benefit the two neighbouring cities as part of efforts to cement the integration of them".

The proposed 41km line would have four stops - both airports, Hung Shui Kiu in Yuen Long and Qianhai in Shekou, Shenzhen - the feasibility study said.

It said checkpoints would be provided for cross-border travellers, and passengers could check in their luggage before boarding the train.

Hong Kong is expected to pay 41 billion yuan, 80 per cent of the total construction fees, for the 16km line in its jurisdiction, while Shenzhen will pay about 10 billion yuan for about 25km. Trains would run every three minutes, carrying 35,000 passengers an hour, said Li Xiaoyi , vice-director of the Shenzhen Rail Transit Construction Headquarters Office.

Shenzhen authorities said the planned intercity railway could provide a link between Hong Kong airport's frequent international flights and Shenzhen airport's domestic flights.

Shenzhen launched a feasibility study on airport rail links at the end of 2007, and its planning bureau earlier proposed that the railway should be 30km long and cut travelling time between the two cities to 17 minutes.

Shenzhen Mayor Xu Zongheng said earlier that construction of the line would not start until 2011.


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## honwai1983

I think that Airport link across Mainland China and Hong Kong, It will be have boarding-crossing facilities in each station.

I would like to know the rounting of the Airport link,(Across sea?) 
Maximum design speed (200Km/h?) and
it will share the line with west rail or not.

Thanks.


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## taikoo.city

honwai1983 said:


> I think that Airport link across Mainland China and Hong Kong, It will be have boarding-crossing facilities in each station.
> 
> I would like to know the rounting of the Airport link,(Across sea?)
> Maximum design speed (200Km/h?) and
> it will share the line with west rail or not.
> 
> Thanks.


It goes nonstop between the two airports, or from Deep Bay to Hung Shui Kiu. Design speed will be 140km/h and the trains will have similar dimensions to an MTR train, however, it will not share tracks with West Rail though and the line will be entirely underground, costing some $40bn HKD.


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## YannSZ

*Pictures of construction site advertisement*

It's been a while I meant to post those pictures!


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## taikoo.city

YannSZ said:


> It's been a while I meant to post those pictures!


Platform screen doors on HSR!? Are they really serious about that??hno:


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## gakei

taikoo.city said:


> Or you can quote articles from South China Morning Post instead~


Agree. It is not justifiable to post Chinese articles in an international forum where most members are non-Chinese.


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## YannSZ

gakei said:


> Agree. It is not justifiable to post Chinese articles in an international forum where most members are non-Chinese.


It is justifiable for 2 reasons:
- There is logically lot more material and data in chinese language on Chinese projects. I don't see why we should skip them just because they are in chinese language
- Google translate allows you in 10sc to get a global meaning of the chinese text with a next to accurate translation.
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en#zh-CN|en|

So guys keep on posting in Chinese we'll find ways to translate.
Cheers,

Yann


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## gakei

YannSZ said:


> It is justifiable for 2 reasons:
> - There is logically lot more material and data in chinese language on Chinese projects. I don't see why we should skip them just because they are in chinese language
> - Google translate allows you in 10sc to get a global meaning of the chinese text with a next to accurate translation.
> http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en#zh-CN|en|
> 
> So guys keep on posting in Chinese we'll find ways to translate.
> Cheers,
> 
> Yann


I suggest that it is the responsibility of the member who posts a Chinese article to translate the article himself/herself using Google or otherwise, reads through the translated version to see if it is accurately translated, and posts the fine-tuned (if applicable) translated version here.

Certainly a hyper link to the original Chinese article should also be provided, or simply posting both the Chinese and the fine-tuned (if applicable) translated version here.

It is also a sense of respect, we say "入鄉隨俗" (visiting a village should follow the custom of that village). Here is an International forum, but not a Chinese one.

PS: The Google translator you provided just translates "干炒牛河" to "Dry cow River". Therefore it is not a good way to suggest someone who doesn't know Chinese to translate a Chinese article himself/herself.

Cheers.


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## hkskyline

taikoo.city said:


> Or you can quote articles from South China Morning Post instead~


Not every single article in the Chinese press has an English counterpart in SCMP / The Standard, etc. Hence, it is impossible to do a one-to-one match. I am not comfortable with letting information slip about this project just because it does not have an English article. While we live in an international forum, we also need to realize this is not an English-only forum. As a result, if information is *relevant*, it should be posted. We should not choose to disclose only selective information, but *all* information on a best efforts basis.

For those who may not understand what the article says, whether it is in Chinese, French, or any other language (this includes non-English speakers who venture in SSC, and I'm sure there are such people in existence), they may kindly request a high-level translation, but I do not believe it is the responsibility of the poster to provide an all-inclusive translation into any other language in existence. It is up to the *reader* to ask questions and discuss.

We live in a global world. English is not the sole language of use anymore. I do hope people learn several languages, but if they don't, is it the poster's problem or the reader's?


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## enkay

I agree to an extent, but the overwhelming majority of visitors to this thread can probably read English and not Simplified, let alone Traditional, Chinese, since it's in the world forums and not in the China/HK section. For all practical purposes, English is the world's most prevalent lingua franca. Is this the way it should be? Probably not, but I'm making an observation and not a judgement as to which language is 'better'. Although you shouldn't be expected to translate the entire article, one or two sentences regarding the gist of the content would be nice, just to know what's going on.

Regarding babelfish/google translate: They do a pretty horrible job with translating Chinese to English sometimes; we've all had experiences with their literal translations.


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## taikoo.city

hkskyline said:


> Not every single article in the Chinese press has an English counterpart in SCMP / The Standard, etc. Hence, it is impossible to do a one-to-one match. I am not comfortable with letting information slip about this project just because it does not have an English article. While we live in an international forum, we also need to realize this is not an English-only forum. As a result, if information is *relevant*, it should be posted. We should not choose to disclose only selective information, but *all* information on a best efforts basis.
> 
> For those who may not understand what the article says, whether it is in Chinese, French, or any other language (this includes non-English speakers who venture in SSC, and I'm sure there are such people in existence), they may kindly request a high-level translation, but I do not believe it is the responsibility of the poster to provide an all-inclusive translation into any other language in existence. It is up to the *reader* to ask questions and discuss.
> 
> We live in a global world. English is not the sole language of use anymore. I do hope people learn several languages, but if they don't, is it the poster's problem or the reader's?


The best way to do this is putting English articles as priority: Post articles from SCMP or other English press when possible, and ONLY post Chinese articles when there are no English alternatives.


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## hkskyline

taikoo.city said:


> The best way to do this is putting English articles as priority: Post articles from SCMP or other English press when possible, and ONLY post Chinese articles when there are no English alternatives.


That is what has been happening all throughout this thread. I actually do post both English and Chinese when available.


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## gakei

hkskyline said:


> For those who may not understand what the article says, whether it is in Chinese, French, or any other language (this includes non-English speakers who venture in SSC, and I'm sure there are such people in existence), they may kindly request a high-level translation, but I do not believe it is the responsibility of the poster to provide an all-inclusive translation into any other language in existence. It is up to the reader to ask questions and discuss.


For those majority who knows nothing about Chinese in this forum, when facing a Chinese-only article in front of him/her, what do you expect him/her to ask? He/She cannot read a single word about the article and knows nothing about it.

I suppose you post an article about Hong Kong matters in an International forum is to introduce such Hong Kong matters to people around the World right? If you are not writing something that they understand, what is the point to post articles here? Why don't you post them on Hong Kong forums to let Hong Kong people know only?


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## hkskyline

*MTR's border train fares seen by many as unreasonably high *
27 May 2009
South China Morning Post

Most residents find the fares for MTR train services to the border unreasonable, a survey has found.

The train was the most popular mode of transport for Hongkongers crossing the border, the Chinese University survey showed. Some 51.4 per cent of respondents said the fares were "unreasonable" and 8.8 per cent said they were "very unreasonable". Thirty-three per cent found the fares "reasonable".

Chinese University surveyed 507 residents, aged 18 or above, on cross-border infrastructure between Hong Kong and Shenzhen in February.

The poll found more than 90 per cent visited Shenzhen at least once a year, while 20.4 per cent visited at least once a month. About 2.6 per cent went to the city almost daily.

Most of the travellers - 77.1 per cent - rode the train.

The cross-border coach was the second-most popular, with 22.2 per cent using it.

Asked to choose their preferred measures for improving cross-border infrastructure, 43.8 per cent of respondents wanted more 24-hour crossings, while 33.1 per cent preferred to have the checkpoints either moved closer together or merged.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed railway, which is due to come into service in 2015, was the top cross-border infrastructure project for 44.8 per cent of respondents. That was followed by a rail link between the MTR West Rail and Lok Ma Chau Spur Line - the choice of 39.4 per cent.

Some 19 per cent selected the railway line linking the Hong Kong and Shenzhen airports. Shenzhen Mayor Xu Zongheng said earlier that construction of the line would not start until 2011.

More than 53 per cent believed that the development of cross-border infrastructure would affect Hong Kong positively, but 18.3 per cent felt it would have a negative impact. Another 18.1 per cent said it would have no impact.


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## hkskyline

*Fares announced for MTR's Southern Link*
11 July 2009
China Daily - Hong Kong Edition

HONG KONG: The MTR Corporation's new Southern Link is scheduled to open at a still to be named date during the third quarter. The MTR said on Friday the fare from Tuen Mun to Austin Road in Kowloon's Jordan will be HK$15.8.

"The final tests on operation are now afoot. Once they are completed we will apply to the related government authorities for the official license to open Southern Link, around the third quarter of this year," said Choi Tak-tsun, head of operating of MTR Corporation.

*The newly built Austin station is at the junction of Canton Road and Jordan Road, adjacent to the Canton Road Government Offices. The location is the future terminus for the Hong Kong leg of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link.*

The trip from Tuen Mun to Hung Hom will take about half an hour. Traveling time from Yuen Long to Hung Hom will be about 27 minutes. The terminus for East Rail will move forward from Tsim Sha Tsui East to Hung Hom. That will mean East Rail passengers heading for Tsim Sha Tsui East must change at Hung hom.

"The price from Tuen Mun, Yuen Long or Tin Shui Wai to Austin station will be HK$15.8 by octopus, HK$5 from Hung Hom to Austin station, and HK$10.9 from Sheung Shui to Austin.

"In a bid to promote use of the new rail extension, MTR Corporation will introduce a new 'Tuen Mun - Hung Hom Monthly Pass', at the price of HK$470, allowing holders unlimited rides on the line for a month," said Jeny Yeung, general manager of marketing and station commercial of the MTR Corporation.

The existing K16 feeder bus linking East Rail Line and West Rail Line will be phased out of operation within a month after the Southern Link commences operations.


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## YannSZ

*Pictures - Sunday 19th of July*

Here are some pictures taken today.
Those are the constructions going on between YiTian Road and ShenNan Road.
This is for the futur FuTian underground railway station for the HK-GZ Express Railway.


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## hkskyline

*Jacobs Receives Contract to Support Hong Kong-China Express Rail Project *

PASADENA, Calif., July 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Jacobs Engineering Group Inc. (NYSE: JEC) announced today that a subsidiary company received a contract from the Highways Department of the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to provide engineering services for the design and site investigation phase of the US$5 billion Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL).

Jacobs will perform monitoring and verification of work that is executed by MTR Corporation Limited and its associated consultants/agents. Jacobs' Hong Kong office will work directly with the Railway Development Office of the Highways Department, which plans and coordinates the implementation of new rail projects in Hong Kong.

Officials noted that the contract value is US$3 million.

In making the announcement, Jacobs Group Vice President Chris Nagel said, "We greatly appreciate the opportunity to build on our existing relationship with the Highways Department. We are eager to support the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region in its efforts to meet Hong Kong's increasing transportation needs and maintain Hong Kong's position as the southern gateway to China."

The Hong Kong section of the XRL will run in the form of an underground tunnel from a new terminus at West Kowloon to the boundary at Huanggang for connection with China's Mainland section. Construction is anticipated to start by end of 2009 and expected to finish in 2012.

Jacobs, with annual revenues exceeding $12 billion, is one of the world's largest and most diverse providers of technical, professional, and construction services.

Any statements made in this release that are not based on historical fact are forward-looking statements. Although such statements are based on management's current estimates and expectations, and currently available competitive, financial, and economic data, forward-looking statements are inherently uncertain. We, therefore, caution the reader that there are a variety of factors that could cause business conditions and results to differ materially from what is contained in our forward-looking statements. For a description of some of the factors which may occur that could cause actual results to differ from our forward-looking statements please refer to our 2008 Form 10-K, and in particular the discussions contained under Items 1 - Business, 1A - Risk Factors, 3 - Legal Proceedings, and 7 - Management's Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations. We also caution the readers of this release that we do not undertake to update any forward-looking statements made herein.


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## UD2

^^^

that black and white picture was great.


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## hkskyline

*New rail link cuts no time off trip *
25 July 2009
SCMP

A trip on the 50 billion yuan (HK$56.8 billion) high-speed rail link between Hong Kong and Guangzhou will take as long or longer than the existing through train because the new service will terminate 23 kilometres from the provincial capital's centre.

Unlike the present line, which stops in the heart of Guangzhou's business district at Tianhe , the much touted Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong railway due to open in 2015 will terminate southeast of the city centre at Shibi, Panyu .

Travellers arriving there after a 48-minute ride from Hong Kong will find convenient links to the mainland rail network, including a much faster ride to the central city of Wuhan , Beijing or other points north.

But to get to Guangzhou's city centre, passengers will have to transfer to Guangzhou Metro and ride it for 18 stops - a journey of about 45 minutes, the

A Guangzhou Metro spokesman said: "It is a normal metro train. We haven't decided the speed and the frequency of the trains. It will probably be slower than the normal speed in the beginning."

The through train to Guangzhou East station takes an hour and 40 minutes, meaning it will actually take just as long to reach the city centre using the new express, and then the Guangzhou Metro.

One infrastructure expert had doubts about the express link's effectiveness for Hong Kong people.

"[They] will have to transit by travelling at least 45 minutes on the Metro to reach the city centre," said Zheng Tianxiang, a Pearl River Delta transport expert and an adviser to the Guangzhou city government. "The arrangement will be rather troublesome for them."

Hong Kong's section of the new rail line will cost 39 billion yuan and the Shenzhen-to-Guangzhou link 11 billion yuan, the Ministry of Railways said on Friday.

Work on the Shenzhen-to-Guangzhou section has already begun and is expected to be completed before November next year. The Hong Kong government hopes to start building its part of the project by the end of this year.

Announcing the Executive Council's approval of the plan in April last year, the government said the new line "will cut the Hong Kong-Guangzhou travelling time to just under 50 minutes - twice as fast as the Guangzhou-Hong Kong through trains on the East Rail alignment".

The Transport and Housing Bureau has heavily promoted the 48-minute ride to Guangzhou as a time-saving service between the two cities.

"The proposed rail line will provide fast, convenient and reliable services to and from Hong Kong and Guangzhou via Shenzhen," a government spokesman said late last year.

The bureau estimates that in 2016, 88,000 passengers will use the new link to get to Shenzhen and Guangzhou daily, while 11,000 passengers will transit to other Chinese cities through Guangzhou's new station.

Du Wen, head of the team that selected the site for the new station said Shibi was chosen because of its abundant land. Compensation for affected villagers also would be cheaper there than in other places.

Hong Kong Polytechnic University transport specialist Hung Wing-tat said: "Quite a number of Chinese cities are building their new railway stations outside the city centre and this is also an international trend. In many foreign countries, new railway stations are no longer in the city centre because of a shortage of land."

But he said the government should make it clear that the Guangzhou it referred to when promoting the link was not Guangzhou central. "Panyu is part of Guangzhou but it is pretty far away from heart of the city. It is wrong to assume that the express link will take the passengers straight to Guangzhou's business district, like the existing rail line is doing," he said.


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## gramercy

in europe this would be a problem,
but guangzhou will eat that neighbourhood like an amoeba in about 5 years..


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## hkskyline

Even Tianhe isn't really Guangzhou's core. It's a new CBD east of the old city.


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## hkskyline

*Business travellers to stick to old rail line *
25 July 2009
SCMP

Travellers with interests in the business heart of Guangzhou are unlikely to switch to the new express line, rail passengers and transport pundits say, but those going to Panyu and nearby Foshan and Nansha will benefit.

Building the terminus in Panyu - 23 kilometres southeast of the business district - would also attract investment there, enabling the satellite district to develop into a new sub-centre of Guangzhou, they say.

"I won't use the new express link for sure," said David So, who travels between his home in West Kowloon and his office in Tianhe every weekend.

It will take 48 minutes to reach Panyu. But travellers then face an 18-stop metro ride into the city centre, which will take about 45 minutes.

"I may be able to save time on the first half of the trip but I will lose time on the second half," Mr Ho said. "Now I only have to travel one stop on the metro to reach my office. In the future, I will have to take 17 stops. And I bet the train ticket will be more expensive than what I'm paying now."

Yusuki Lam, an arts teacher who works in Guangzhou, agreed with him. "I probably will not take the new train. I doubt I can save much time. If it can save time, it will also need to be cheap. I don't want to pay more than what I'm paying now, which is less than HK$190 per journey," she said.

But Michael Ng, a businessman with a company in Guangzhou, said the new link would be good for him.

"Many of the factories where I need to visit before making orders are in Panyu and Nansha," he said. "It will be easier to visit them."

Business specialists on the Pearl River Delta said they expected those who worked and did business in central Guangzhou to keep using the high-speed Guangzhou-Shenzhen train.

"There is a division of labour between different rail lines," said Hung Wing-tat, an associate professor at Hong Kong Polytechnic University, said. "The new one is not for people who want to go to Guangzhou's business district. For those who want to go to the city centre, they can continue to rely on the existing rail lines."

But he said Hongkongers wanting to take advantage of the new line and move to Guangzhou could save a lot by living in Panyu, where property prices were only a fraction of those in central Guangzhou.

Zheng Tianxiang, a professor at Sun Yat-sen University's Centre for Studies of Hong Kong, Macau and the Pearl River Delta in Guangzhou, said the absence of vacant land in central Guangzhou had forced the city government to build the station at Panyu.

But Lin Jiang, director of the university's Hong Kong and Macau research centre, said that if the terminus had been put in the city centre or nearby it would have killed the existing Guangzhou-Shenzhen railway.

"Many parties' interests would have been seriously affected, such as the railway company town that the railway passes through, developers and property owners," he said.


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## hkskyline

*Growing, growing, gone 
A village of market gardeners might lose their homes, but not the memories *
29 July 2009
South China Morning Post

It has been 16 years since Fung Yu-chuk moved out of Choi Yuen Tsuen, the farming village in Shek Kong where she grew up. Even so, she has never lost touch with the land. Admiring beds of crisp water spinach in a former neighbour's yard, Fung doesn't hesitate to wade into the mud, harvesting the best-looking leaves with deft hands.

The 48-year-old returns regularly to Choi Yuen Tsuen (literally Vegetable Garden Village), where she grows a variety of crops such as chilli and peas in her sister's market garden.

"I come back whenever I have time. I have to work in the field," says Fung, a cleaner at a TuenMun school. "It's something I can't live without."

Fung's efforts to retain her farming roots form part of an oral history project launched by heritage activist Chu Hoi-dick to better understand neglected villages and their contribution to agriculture in Hong Kong.

Under government proposals for a controversial HK$39.5 billion express rail link to Guangzhou, Choi Yuen Tsuen and the surrounding market gardens will be razed to make way for a shunting station. Compiled from interviews with 10 villagers aged from 40 to 80 about their struggle as market gardeners, the oral history project features detailed articles as well as videos, some of which can be viewed online (expressrailtruth.com).

Many regard the project as a bid to document a vanishing culture, but Chu, who has formed a Choi Yuen Tsuen support group, says he's not so pessimistic.

"While most people think nothing should get in the way of urban development, we're trying to show through this project that something precious is at stake here."

Choi Yuen Tsuen was largely wilderness when Fung's parents settled there in 1950s. They fled Guangdong after the communist takeover, but found themselves rejected as outsiders in clan-dominated villages in the New Territories. Instead, they made a new life for themselves with other migrants as market gardeners on the land around Choi Yuen Tsuen.

"We built our lives from scratch here," says Ko Chun-heung, who convened the Choi Yuen Tsuen Concern Group to co-ordinate the villagers' campaign.

Like Fung, she was born and raised in the village. "We belong here," she says. "We like the way we live and we're very proud of it. Others might think we have old-fashioned values, but they can't just dismiss it and take it away."

Villagers say they knew nothing about the plan until it was gazetted last November and officials began marking property with paint, but they are fighting to keep their homes. The proposal will require the 500 residents to vacate Choi Yuen Tsuen by next year.

Unlike clan villages, where most residents share the same surname, Choi Yuen Tsuen is made up of disparate families, many of whom were refugees from the civil war on the mainland. However, Ko says the community has long been neglected by the government. Choi Yuen Tsuen doesn't enjoy much of the infrastructure that indigenous villages take for granted, such as a village office and public toilets, and residents have had to maintain facilities themselves. The village only acquired its name and mailbox about 10 years ago through the help of a legislator.

Their proposed eviction further adds to the sense of injustice, Ko says. "We've been here for three generations and we deserve to be valued as a thriving community, just like any indigenous village."

Although Fung moved out of the village after she wed, her jobs in town made her appreciate the country life even more.

"I realised how free it is to be a farmer. I have more control of things and it makes me feel wonderful. When you work for others, it's very stressful and emasculating because no matter how hard you work at your job, praise is rare and you are seldom recognised for your contribution.

"I find it much more rewarding to farm because hard work often pays off, and its value is not measured only with money."

Weekends spent on a vegetable patch may not be enough to sustain Fung's family, but they feed her soul.

"It stimulates my creativity. A lot of thought goes into deciding what to grow and what to cook. I am sure I'd be more dim-witted without my farm," she says with a laugh.

Younger residents such as Lam Ho-cheong, 26, also prefer the simple pleasures of village life to the bustle of the city. "I feel free and happy here. You don't need so much money to get by. I won't starve as long as I have land to grow vegetables," says Lam, a construction worker. "I like the peace and quiet here."

His mother, Lai Kam-lan, 51, has raised Lam and his four siblings by growing vegetables for nearly four decades. "It not only feeds my family, but also gives me freedom because I can be self-sufficient," she says.

But with competition from cheap mainland suppliers and surrounding streams polluted by construction projects, vegetable cultivation is becoming problematic, Lai says.

Yet many in Choi Yuen Tsuen still prefer that to a new life in the urban jungle.

"I'd feel trapped and very sad," says Law Wai-lin, 52. "I love how free and easy it is. I can do a bit of weeding here and there or make dishes with the plants I grow."

The variety of vegetables cultivated in Choi Yuen Tsuen has often surprised volunteers interviewing them for the project.

University student Chan Ping-fung, 21, says: "They can pick up a vegetable somewhere that I haven't seen before and know what to do with it. They do it all the time."

She learned, for instance, about the versatile phoenix eye fruit, which can be used in a soup, to marinate meat or put in rice as a flavour-enhancer.

Chan joined the support group because she felt villagers weren't fairly treated and found herself moved by their determination to keep farming despite the modest returns, and she was charmed by their rustic lifestyle.

Chu hopes scattered rural settlements such as Choi Yuen Tsuen will receive the same treatment as indigenous villages.

"They may not have been around for 100 years, but theirs is a vibrant community compared to many areas in the New Territories where land has been turned into container storage sites and parking lots."

Beside documenting residents' lives, Chu's oral history project provides background information for the guided tours that he has been running every Sunday for the past three months. (The three-hour tour costs HK$40 and details can also be found at expressrailtruth.com.)

Fung often serves as a guide.

"It's great that more people now know we exist," she says. "It's important to get the facts right, so I did a lot of research about our history. I have to be well prepared as you never know what visitors will ask," she says. "I also discovered my talent for public speaking."

Choi Yuen Tsuen was already closely knit, but the project has made residents appreciate each other even more.

"It's been a great experience to get to know our people better," Ko says. "These stories are the best way to show others why this village should not be destroyed."


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## mjx729

that's good news


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## hkskyline

*Rail delay urged over 'ridiculous' green report *
3 August 2009
South China Morning Post

The multibillion-dollar railway project that will link Hong Kong to the mainland's high-speed rail network may face delay as the government's environmental advisers will today demand that the MTR Corporation rewrites the route's environmental-impact assessment report.

At least two members of the Advisory Council on the Environment said they would lobby their colleagues at a subcommittee meeting to recommend that the environmental chief not issue a work permit for the project unless the corporation redoes a report on the project's impact on ecology and hydrogeology.

Work on the project is due to start before the end of the year.

Their decision followed the release of a report by Man Si-wai, an environmental academic who formerly taught at Chinese University, who said the report compiled by the corporation was not only biased and inaccurate but did not comply with the requirement of the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance.

"The report admitted the tunnelling work may cause underground water losses and subsidence of the ground above, but they only studied such impact on the project, and not the ecology and farmland around. This is ridiculous," Dr Man said.

She said it was both inaccurate and against the law that the report had not studied the ecological impact along the rail line but only on structures protruding above the surface, as underground water losses would certainly affect life on the ground.

She had contacted some green groups and activists who would be eager to stop the work through a judicial review if the director of environmental protection endorsed the report without conditions.

But a spokeswoman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said the report already covered the hydrogeology and ecological aspect. She said the risk of subsidence was near Tsoi Yuen village, and proposed mitigation measures were in place, but the government would accept any suggestions made by the Advisory Council.

Man Chi-sum, a council member and chief executive of Green Power, said he would not seek to reject the report, but it was only reasonable that the MTR Corp redo the part that it had not finished.

Edwin Lau Che-fung, another council member from Friends of the Earth, added: "They left many blanks in the report, which they should fill in with answers."

The report said most animals and plants identified along the work areas were common species of low ecological value, but Dr Man said in her report that there could still be consequences, as common species could live in a highly concentrated area.

She also challenged the ways the MTR Corp collected the samples.

The government has been criticised by green groups for pushing ahead with the project so quickly that it jump-started the legal process before obtaining a work permit from the Environmental Protection Department.

The local section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, expected to be completed by 2015, would be ready more than four years after the mainland's high-speed rail network, due to be completed by next year. Four green organisations are backing a group of villagers fighting to avoid losing their homes to make way for the link.


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## gogo11

hkskyline said:


> *Rail delay urged over 'ridiculous' green report *
> 3 August 2009
> South China Morning Post
> 
> The multibillion-dollar railway project that will link Hong Kong to the mainland's high-speed rail network may face delay as the government's environmental advisers will today demand that the MTR Corporation rewrites the route's environmental-impact assessment report.
> 
> At least two members of the Advisory Council on the Environment said they would lobby their colleagues at a subcommittee meeting to recommend that the environmental chief not issue a work permit for the project unless the corporation redoes a report on the project's impact on ecology and hydrogeology.
> 
> Work on the project is due to start before the end of the year.
> 
> Their decision followed the release of a report by Man Si-wai, an environmental academic who formerly taught at Chinese University, who said the report compiled by the corporation was not only biased and inaccurate but did not comply with the requirement of the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance.
> 
> "The report admitted the tunnelling work may cause underground water losses and subsidence of the ground above, but they only studied such impact on the project, and not the ecology and farmland around. This is ridiculous," Dr Man said.
> 
> She said it was both inaccurate and against the law that the report had not studied the ecological impact along the rail line but only on structures protruding above the surface, as underground water losses would certainly affect life on the ground.
> 
> She had contacted some green groups and activists who would be eager to stop the work through a judicial review if the director of environmental protection endorsed the report without conditions.
> 
> But a spokeswoman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said the report already covered the hydrogeology and ecological aspect. She said the risk of subsidence was near Tsoi Yuen village, and proposed mitigation measures were in place, but the government would accept any suggestions made by the Advisory Council.
> 
> Man Chi-sum, a council member and chief executive of Green Power, said he would not seek to reject the report, but it was only reasonable that the MTR Corp redo the part that it had not finished.
> 
> Edwin Lau Che-fung, another council member from Friends of the Earth, added: "They left many blanks in the report, which they should fill in with answers."
> 
> The report said most animals and plants identified along the work areas were common species of low ecological value, but Dr Man said in her report that there could still be consequences, as common species could live in a highly concentrated area.
> 
> She also challenged the ways the MTR Corp collected the samples.
> 
> The government has been criticised by green groups for pushing ahead with the project so quickly that it jump-started the legal process before obtaining a work permit from the Environmental Protection Department.
> 
> The local section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, expected to be completed by 2015, would be ready more than four years after the mainland's high-speed rail network, due to be completed by next year. Four green organisations are backing a group of villagers fighting to avoid losing their homes to make way for the link.


"The report admitted the tunnelling work may cause underground water losses and subsidence of the ground above, but they only studied such impact on the project, and not the ecology and farmland around. This is ridiculous," Dr Man said.

Re. subsidence of the ground above
It is a serious risks for all buildings near the tunnel.
For 60-80 floor tall buildings with subsidence of ground, it make tall buildings fall. It may cause thousand people die.
Month ago, it happaned in Shanghai. There is in TV: Whole building fell.
There is hundred tall buildings near the tunnel in kowloon.
Over 100000 people is at risk of dead with the tunnel.
How come the govet do that ?


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## hkskyline

An environmental impact assessment is not supposed to be interpreted as a structural integrity assessment for all buildings along the route.


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## gogo11

Re. subsidence of the ground above

Fall of shaghai building month ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pktM__i-8IQ&feature=related


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## gogo11

gogo11 said:


> Re. subsidence of the ground above
> 
> Fall of shaghai building month ago:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pktM__i-8IQ&feature=related


Sorry. should be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pktM__i-8IQ


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## hkskyline

*Exco poised to discuss Guangzhou rail route *
13 July 2009
SCMP

The Executive Council is expected to discuss plans for an express rail line to Guangzhou in late September after an environmental impact assessment backed the plans.

Government sources said the report - to be released next week for public scrutiny - had found that the rail line would have little impact on conservation land and underground water resources along the route.

The sources said officials hoped to seek funding from the Legislative Council around November if Exco gave its approval.

But green groups have criticised the government for jumping the gun before it has an environmental permit, which will not be issued until the assessment has been scrutinised by the public and the Advisory Council on the Environment.

In addition, about 90 New Territories villagers who must move to make way for a railway depot are still not co-operating.

Under the plans, up to 20 million tonnes of construction waste generated by construction of the line's 26 kilometre tunnel will be recycled.

Twenty per cent of it will be used along the line, 30 per cent will be used on the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau bridge project, and the rest will be shipped to the mainland.

The line, which will allow a rail journey from West Kowloon to Guangzhou via Shenzhen in just 48 minutes, will have soundproofed tracks to ensure the high-speed trains do not disturb activities at the future West Kowloon arts hub.

The government is facing obstacles in calculating compensation for villagers who have to move from Tsoi Yuen Tsuen. Some residents say they will try to block demolition of their homes.

Property ownership in Tsoi Yuen Tsuen is highly complicated, with about a quarter of the villagers living on government land and some suspected of occupying dwellings built illegally.

"The government needs to calculate the amount of compensation for each of the 150 households. It would be very helpful if the villagers can volunteer information," the source said.

Only 60 of the households have so far provided information.

Villagers and activists have proposed other sites for the Tsoi Yuen Tsuen depot, but the sources said they were not feasible since all would require the construction of a long spur line and that would affect more households and conservation land.

The sources said the village must be vacated by November next year.


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## hkskyline

*The HK$39b question nobody asked 
Cross-border station site never challenged*
18 August 2009
South China Morning Post

Legislators considering the new cross-border express rail project spent a lot of time over the past nine years poring over funding figures and pondering matters of design, routing and environmental impact.

But not one member asked the crucial question: where would the Guangzhou terminus for the HK$39.5 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong line be?

As deliberations rolled on - and as the government began touting the speedy 48-minute trip the new line would offer its passengers - lawmakers remained ignorant, as some still are, of the fact that a trip of similar length on a commuter line would be needed to reach central Guangzhou.

The question needed to be asked because, as a search of documents and minutes of the Legislative Council's railways subcommittee shows, the government was not telling them clearly either. While the Guangdong authorities decided in 2004 that the line would end at Shibi in Panyu , 23 kilometres and an estimated 45-minute metro ride from northern Tianhe in the central business district, where the present through train terminates, this information did not appear in a Legco paper until 2005.

Even then the Hong Kong government did not say - and no one asked - how the passengers, having made the much-vaunted 48-minute ride from West Kowloon, would get to the city centre or how long it would take.

The word Shibi was simply stated in Legco documents and the terminus shown on a map with no information about connections to the city centre. In fact, taking into account transfer time and the 18-stop metro ride, the journey will take at least as long as the present 100 minutes.

No legislator even asked where Shibi was. One, Albert Chan Wai-yip, spotted its location on a map in 2006, but he did not question it. Meanwhile, it has emerged that, even before the site was officially chosen, the Guangdong government was weighing up the merits of four alternatives - three of them in Panyu and one in Haizhu district - giving a clear signal to anyone alert enough to spot it that the station was going to be a long way from the city centre.

Some of the lawmakers sitting on the Legco subcommittee still do not know where the Guangzhou terminus is. "No, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail link does not head to Panyu. It goes to Guangzhou," unionist lawmaker Li Fung-ying said. When it was pointed out to her that Shibi is in Panyu, she said: "Then I need to follow this up in the next meeting."

Democratic Party transport spokesman Andrew Cheng Kar-foo, a member of the subcommittee since 2000, said he did not know it would take about the same time to travel to Guangzhou city centre with the new link as on the existing railway.

"I just heard this from you for the first time. We have not studied it in detail in the past," he told a South China Morning Post reporter.

Engineering sector legislator Raymond Ho Chung-tai said it was not important where the Guangzhou terminus was located since the link would be part of the national express-rail system. "We should not just narrowly look at how long it takes to travel to Guangzhou," he said.

Subcommittee chairwoman Miriam Lau Kin-yee, the transport sector legislator, said lawmakers had not questioned the location of the Guangzhou terminus because it was outside the legislature's scope.

As it turns out, the convenience of Hong Kong passengers was far from the minds of Guangdong officials planning the new line. "The four [alternative sites] were chosen because the new station is not solely for Guangzhou. It is also built to serve Foshan ," a mainland engineer involved in the project since the early 2000s said.

The terminus was shown on maps attached to some documents shown to legislators, but no mention was made of its distance from the city centre, although there were references to its being "at the heart of the Guangzhou and Foshan metropolitan zone". In fact, when the Hong Kong line was first mentioned in a government railway development strategy report in 2000, it was conceived as an express route to the border - an alternative to the then Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation's multi-stop commuter line.

A government spokesman said Hong Kong had agreed on the location in March 2005.

But legislators were briefed on the route only in December 2005, when they were provided with a map showing Shibi's location. The map showed the terminus would be some distance from Guangzhou's centre, but not exactly how far away nor what the transit arrangements would be. And no one asked.

An international tender to design and build the station was issued by mainland authorities in May 2004. It stated clearly that it would be in Shibi, Panyu, and would serve the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express link. This was almost a year before Legco was informed of the terminus' location.


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## YannSZ

^^
I am very curious to know the real reasons behind the choice of this location for the Guangzhou train station. That seems ridiculous.
This might be the decision of greedy officials who, prior to chose the location, had carefully bought some land in Panyu...
You cannot decide the location of a xxx billion $ project without a huge study justifying the choice.


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## urbanfan89

Perhaps in the far future a tunnel could be built connecting the existing KCR line at Buji District (which is upgraded to 250 km/h) with the high speed rail tunnel at Huanggang, so that trains from West Kowloon can run on the existing line to Guangzhou East Station.

But it's another multi-billion dollar (or Yuan) mistake.


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## hkskyline

gramercy said:


> perhaps, but think about the long distance services that will continue from there all the way to (and back from) Guiyang (Chengdu-, Kunming-, Lanzhou-, Xi'An-Hong Kong) and Changsha (Wuhan-, Beijing-, Shanghai-Hong Kong)
> 
> in the future there will be plenty of very long distance services coming and going


I can probably train to Changsha, Wuhan (5 hours), and Nanning (4 hours), but the big cities such as Shanghai (8 hours) and Beijing (10 hours) are simply too far for HSR to be effective.

This means the catchment area for an expensive HSR link is actually limited. So I really wonder if they will recover the cost unless they really push the short journeys to Guangzhou.


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## gramercy

hkskyline said:


> I can probably train to Changsha, Wuhan (5 hours), and Nanning (4 hours), but the big cities such as Shanghai (8 hours) and Beijing (10 hours) are simply too far for HSR to be effective.
> 
> This means the catchment area for an expensive HSR link is actually limited. So I really wonder if they will recover the cost unless they really push the short journeys to Guangzhou.


I disagree because of a couple of things:

- we should not just take todays HS network into account, think about when the above posted map is completed 
- think about the above posted map at 350-360 maybe even 380 kph (the latter will probably not come for another decade but then neither is the entire network)
- yes it takes longer on HSR than on a plane, but it would also be (presumably) cheaper, and there are _plenty_ of people in china who would spend 2-3x more time on a train for half / third, especially compared to todays trains (which are already quite fast)
- there will also be night/sleeper trains accumulating on this line coming-and going from all directions and then the final leg is this new Foshan/Kanton-Hong Kong line


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## YannSZ

hkskyline said:


> I can probably train to Changsha, Wuhan (5 hours), and Nanning (4 hours), but the big cities such as Shanghai (8 hours) and Beijing (10 hours) are simply too far for HSR to be effective.


I would not mind at all taking the train at 23:00 sleeping in the train and waking up in Shanghai at 7:00!


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## hkskyline

gramercy said:


> I disagree because of a couple of things:
> 
> - we should not just take todays HS network into account, think about when the above posted map is completed
> - think about the above posted map at 350-360 maybe even 380 kph (the latter will probably not come for another decade but then neither is the entire network)
> - yes it takes longer on HSR than on a plane, but it would also be (presumably) cheaper, and there are _plenty_ of people in china who would spend 2-3x more time on a train for half / third, especially compared to todays trains (which are already quite fast)
> - there will also be night/sleeper trains accumulating on this line coming-and going from all directions and then the final leg is this new Foshan/Kanton-Hong Kong line


Can the infrastructure handle even higher speeds? I recall conventional rail cannot handle today's high speeds, and new tracks need to be laid. Can we make this assumption so readily that today's rails can handle tomorrow's speeds?

I also think the government should not make these hypothetical assumptions when they calculate the cost-benefit. Who knows how far off their estimates will be? But then, today's politicians will be long gone when their hypothesis turns back on them years down the road.

Contrary to popular belief, long-distance trains are not cheap. The existing service to Beijing costs $574 one-way for the cheapest hard sleeper (not factoring in seasonal discounts). You can get a fare on a discount carrier for that price and save the time as well. I doubt with HSR the fares will come down much. The technology costs a lot of money to develop and to operate. If Guangzhou fares can only go down slightly, I doubt we will see much move for even longer-distance trains. There are a lot of poor people, such as migrant workers, that need to travel, but I don't see them using CRH at all. They would be taking the far cheaper local trains that get them to the small towns in the countryside.

If we look at Western Europe as a model, trains actually cost more than flying a discount carrier, even after factoring in transport costs to distant airports. Trains are more comfortable with better seats and city centre to city centre connections though. I envision what will emerge from China to be something similar.


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## aab7772003

In western Europe...

-There are practically no high speed train services between 2300 and 0500. You need downtime to perform track maintenance. 
-VERY FEW passengers will take the train if the train ride lasts more than THREE hours. The longest high-density, high-speed shuttle train service in Europe is the Paris - Marseilles service.
-The very cheap high speed train fares are available until as late as a week before the actual departure dates. You almost always can travel on the days you want for very little money if you do the advance purchase and do not plan to travel on popular and peak-hours departures.
-Business travelers on business day trips are prime target customers of the high speed train services. 

There is NO high-speed sleeper train services anywhere in this world.
The distance between Hong Kong and Beijing is about 2000 km. The trip will take at least FIVE hours with the current technological limitations. It will be very difficult to build such long distance lines that enable 400 km/hour travel. There is no time zone difference between Hong Kong and Beijing at all, which means that business day trips between Hong Kong and Beijing that involve AT LEAST 10 hours of commute will not be practical at all.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Contrary to popular belief, long-distance trains are not cheap. The existing service to Beijing costs $574 one-way for the cheapest hard sleeper (not factoring in seasonal discounts). You can get a fare on a discount carrier for that price and save the time as well. I doubt with HSR the fares will come down much. The technology costs a lot of money to develop and to operate. If Guangzhou fares can only go down slightly, I doubt we will see much move for even longer-distance trains. There are a lot of poor people, such as migrant workers, that need to travel, but I don't see them using CRH at all. They would be taking the far cheaper local trains that get them to the small towns in the countryside.
> 
> If we look at Western Europe as a model, trains actually cost more than flying a discount carrier, even after factoring in transport costs to distant airports. Trains are more comfortable with better seats and city centre to city centre connections though. I envision what will emerge from China to be something similar.



Look at the route Beijing-Shanghai.

I can find 38 daily flights Beijing-Shanghai. The scheduled times are between 1:45 and 2:10. Airport to airport.

Prices are US$ 194 for economy. Discounted coach is slightly less, at US$ 180.

I can also find 10 daily trains on that route. Including 1 daytime express, 5 overnight expresses and 4 slower trains.

The overnight expresses take from 10:07 to 10:12. And the most expensive tickets, soft sleeper lower berths, are RMB 730, or about US$ 107. Half the price of a coach flight.

There are cheaper high-speed tickets, too. Second class seats are offered on the same trains for RMB 327, i. e. about US$ 47.

When high-speed overnight trains start sevice between Hong Kong and Shanghai or Beijing, how shall the prices compare against flying?


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Look at the route Beijing-Shanghai.
> 
> I can find 38 daily flights Beijing-Shanghai. The scheduled times are between 1:45 and 2:10. Airport to airport.
> 
> Prices are US$ 194 for economy. Discounted coach is slightly less, at US$ 180.
> 
> I can also find 10 daily trains on that route. Including 1 daytime express, 5 overnight expresses and 4 slower trains.
> 
> The overnight expresses take from 10:07 to 10:12. And the most expensive tickets, soft sleeper lower berths, are RMB 730, or about US$ 107. Half the price of a coach flight.
> 
> There are cheaper high-speed tickets, too. Second class seats are offered on the same trains for RMB 327, i. e. about US$ 47.
> 
> When high-speed overnight trains start sevice between Hong Kong and Shanghai or Beijing, how shall the prices compare against flying?


I don't see much room for tickets to fall. In fact, given the time savings, I expect prices to go up even.

Current fares for Beijing and Shanghai service :
http://www.it3.mtr.com.hk/B2C/UserPage/sysFareTable_Eng.asp


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## EricIsHim

HK$180 one-way does sound low to me, too. It is not just because the current system is more expensive, but the new system will be faster, more comfortable, and significantly higher construction cost. Logically, I would think it will cost more for better service.

Plus, there is also inflation in the next five to six year should be accounted for.
I just don't get how the HSR can be cheaper than the current system, unless it's political.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> I don't see much room for tickets to fall. In fact, given the time savings, I expect prices to go up even.
> 
> Current fares for Beijing and Shanghai service :
> http://www.it3.mtr.com.hk/B2C/UserPage/sysFareTable_Eng.asp


Compare with the current prices Guangzhou to Beijing.

Train T16 now takes 22:06. Not an overnight train - it wastes the morning, arriving 14:56.

The best, lower soft sleeper is RMB 705 - said to be about US$ 87.

On that same route, flights take about 2:50 to 3:00 - and a coach ticket costs US$ 267.

When in December, Guangzhou-Wuhan HSL opens, it should be realistic to cut the trip time from 22 to 16 or 14 hours while still travelling on slow rails between Beijing and Wuhan. 

And an 16 hour train would be more comfortable to plane. With the current prices, US$ 87 or US$ 267, there is a plenty of space for the high-speed train tickets to be more expensive than the slow trains, yet much much cheaper than airplanes.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> When in December, Guangzhou-Wuhan HSL opens, it should be realistic to cut the trip time from 22 to 16 or 14 hours while still travelling on slow rails between Beijing and Wuhan.
> 
> And an 16 hour train would be more comfortable to plane. With the current prices, US$ 87 or US$ 267, there is a plenty of space for the high-speed train tickets to be more expensive than the slow trains, yet much much cheaper than airplanes.


While I need more comfort for 16 hours on a train, the same trip by plane will take only 2-3. It's a huge difference.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> While I need more comfort for 16 hours on a train, the same trip by plane will take only 2-3. It's a huge difference.


Yes - by day.

The first plane in the morning departs Guangzhou at 8:00, reaching Beijing at 10:50. And the last plane in the evening departs Guangzhou at 20:00 and arrives at 22:55.

Which means that a train could take 14:50 to travel Guangzhou-Beijing, and still leave after last plane in the evening and arrive before the first plane in the morning.

Is it feasible?

On the existing, slow rails between Wuchang and Beijing, trains Z12 and Z38 cover the 1231 km distance in 9:56.

Which means that to beat the 14:50 time between evening and morning flight, a train must cover the 968 km HSR Guangzhou-Wuchang in 4:54.

And a test train did it in 3:05. 4:54 is eminently feasible in service.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes - by day.
> 
> The first plane in the morning departs Guangzhou at 8:00, reaching Beijing at 10:50. And the last plane in the evening departs Guangzhou at 20:00 and arrives at 22:55.
> 
> Which means that a train could take 14:50 to travel Guangzhou-Beijing, and still leave after last plane in the evening and arrive before the first plane in the morning.
> 
> Is it feasible?
> 
> On the existing, slow rails between Wuchang and Beijing, trains Z12 and Z38 cover the 1231 km distance in 9:56.
> 
> Which means that to beat the 14:50 time between evening and morning flight, a train must cover the 968 km HSR Guangzhou-Wuchang in 4:54.
> 
> And a test train did it in 3:05. 4:54 is eminently feasible in service.


But the point is you are on the plane for less than 3 hours vs. almost 15 by train. You still lose 12 hours that do not necessarily be entirely occupied by sleep.


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## aab7772003

People in Hong Kong are simply too overwhelmed by the excitement surrounding the local high speed rail project at the moment. When they finally understand the actual high speed rail travel pattern and usage, they will stop daydreaming about taking highspeed trains to Manchuria.


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## hkskyline

*Express rail link on - track to make a profit, says Cheng *
23 October 2009
The Standard

Transport and Housing chief Eva Cheng Yu-wah has denied the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will be a loss maker.

Cheng told a railways subcommittee in the Legislative Council that returns from the railway would be ``observable.''

``The railway is expected to generate benefits of HK$28.1 billion during the first 50 years of operation, with an annual return rate of 6 percent. But it will generate much higher returns if the extended benefits are included,'' the secretary for transport and housing said yesterday.

Cheng said passenger traffic is expected to reach about 99,000 in 2016 and up to 160,000 in 2031. Eighty percent of the passengers will be taking short- haul trips.

The cost of building the railway is HK$53.7 billion, with an additional HK$11.5 billion for non- rail works such as access roads and landscaping. That compares with HK$35.4 billion estimated last year.

The compensation package for about 160 villagers and landowners affected by the project is HK$2 billion.

Civic Party lawmaker Ronny Tong Ka-wah cited a study which suggested the annual return rate to be only 1 percent.

``Considering the low ticket price and the mentioned return rate, does this mean Hong Kongers will have to finance the difference?'' Tong asked.

Cheng stood her ground saying the ``observable return'' suggested there would be no difference to finance.

Others expressing doubts on profitability were Jeffery Lam Kin-fung, League of Social Democrats' Albert Chan Wai-yip and DAB lawmaker Lau Kong-wah.

Lawmakers also expressed concern at the compensation package, which some said was extremely high.

Democratic Party's Lee Wing-tat urged the government to clearly explain the payouts.

``I hope the government will give a clear explanation so that it will not give the public the wrong impression that it was aimed at gaining political support,'' he said.

Cheng explained that raising the compensation for landowners from HK$219 to HK$526 per square foot was due to the project's importance and urgency, stressing there were no political concerns.

``It is a territory-wide and tactical development project which connects Hong Kong to the mainland. Up to now, there have only been two projects at such a level,'' Cheng said.

She added two hectares of farmland will be generated from the development and the government will build a community farm.


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## yaohua2000

chornedsnorkack said:


> On the existing, slow rails between Wuchang and Beijing, trains Z12 and Z38 cover the 1231 km distance in 9:56.
> 
> Which means that to beat the 14:50 time between evening and morning flight, a train must cover the 968 km HSR Guangzhou-Wuchang in 4:54.


It takes only 08h43m for train D123 from Beijing West to Hankou with 6 intermediate station. And a D-train takes about 15 minutes to travel from Hankou to Wuchang. Also consider the D-train here can only run up to 250 km/h. So the travel time of a non-stop 250 km/h D-train from Beijing West to Guangzhou South should be around 13 hours at an average speed of ~170 km/h.


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## bluemeansgo

Fuel prices will go up. China has more options with electricity generation.

And remember, the ticket doesn't have to pay back the capital cost, it just has to pay for maintenance and running the system.

Infrastructure is a sunk cost... especially in China. This is similar to airports, really.

How is China able to run overnight sleeper trains? Are they four-tracking the system?


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## hkskyline

*Is express link on the wrong track? 
Debate rages over the cost of connecting Hong Kong to the mainland's high-speed rail network. *
1 November 2009
South China Morning Post

For a person who travels frequently between Guangzhou and Hong Kong, the news that a ride on the new HK$65.2 billion cross-border express will cost just HK$180 may sound exciting.

At HK$10 less than the present through train from Hung Hom to Guangzhou - condemned by some passengers as smelly and dirty - the link is an appealing prospect even if it does terminate 45 minutes from the centre of the provincial capital of Guangdong.

But despite government trumpeting of the benefits from links to the mainland's high-speed network - the value of which, it says, transcends mere money - a hard look at the proposals raises questions about just how good a deal it is for the community that will pay for it and how many people will actually benefit from it.

To put it in perspective, with the help of Lingnan University economics professor Ho Lok-sang, the price for the most expensive high-speed railway, per kilometre, ever built anywhere in the world:

Is equivalent to more than a quarter of the government's HK$244 billion expenditure for 2009-10;

Would pay for almost six of the HK$11 billion relief packages announced by Chief Executive Donald Tsang Yam-kuen in last year's policy address;

Would pay for the estimated HK$20 billion construction and operating costs of more than three West Kowloon Cultural Districts;

Is HK$15.2 billion more than the HK$50 billion committed to medical financing;

Would eat up two years of the estimated HK$30 billion revenue from a 5 per cent goods and services tax - proposed in July 2006 but dropped in the face of public opposition; and

Is equivalent to almost 15 per cent of the city's fiscal reserves of HK$459 billion.

"No one opposes closer co-operation with the mainland. But the government must lower the cost," Ho says. "Nothing can justify doing it at all costs, except the survival of the human race."

The government estimates that, over 50 years of operation, the economic benefits of the railway - mainly attributed to time savings by travellers - will amount to HK$87 billion, with 11,000 jobs at the height of construction and 10,000 longer term.

Announcing Executive Council approval for the massive undertaking, it said the link would "help reinforce Hong Kong's status as a transport, financial and commercial hub" of China by providing a high-speed shuttle service between neighbouring cities and allowing Hong Kong to "tap into the 16,000-kilometre national high-speed railway network". The government also said it was keeping the fares low to enhance benefits to the community while not worrying too much about making a profit or getting its money back - which would take about 100 years on present estimates.

And indeed, the benefits of the line, officially the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Link, look attractive.

Apart from the HK$180 Guangzhou ride - less than a tenth of the amount some economists say would be needed to recoup the cost - it will cost HK$45 to get to Shenzhen's central business district of Futian and HK$49 to the industrial district of Longhua. Given the much higher speed and lack of commuter stops, this compares favourably with the HK$33 trip from Hung Hom to the Lo Wu border control point.

Hong Kong travellers will also be able to reach Shantou in two hours, Xiamen in four hours, Wuhan in five hours, Shanghai in eight hours and Beijing in 10.

But do all these justify a cost of almost HK$10,000 for every man, woman and child in Hong Kong?

And if they do, who will actually benefit most?

Not the two million-odd Hongkongers - 28 per cent of the population - who did not travel to the mainland once in the past five years, nor to any great extent the 4.6 million who did so occasionally.

On present travel patterns the biggest benefit will be to just 540,000 people who, according to the Planning Department's northbound-southbound 2007 study, are frequent cross-border travellers.

Of these, 18,100 travel at least once a week for work, 183,600 on business and 29,800 to visit family. The rest travel to Pearl River Delta towns for recreation.

To be fair, the government has said it expects cross-border travel to expand greatly in the coming years, with better transport and further integration between Hong Kong and Guangdong.

All things considered, Raymond So Wai-man, associate professor in Chinese University's finance department, thinks Hong Kong should build the line for one crucial reason - a lifeline to maintain its position in the mainland economy and achieve integration with Guangdong.

"If we don't build it, we will be marginalised," he says. "There is only one reason to build the railway - it is to buy a hope, a chance that we will not be marginalised."

But critics, even if they agree the line should be built, say it is too expensive and question why so much needs to be spent on the vast and expensive underground terminus in West Kowloon - almost half the total cost by some estimates.

"The government is withholding a lot of useful data from the public," said Ho of Lingnan University.

"Two sets of basic information have not been released. How many people will save journey time by making West Kowloon the terminus? How many people will have to take more time by making West Kowloon the terminus?"

West Kowloon was convenient for some people, not for everyone, he said, adding that the inconvenience of the Hung Hom terminus was one reason the present service was not more popular.

"The government has to justify why it is spending so much money while refusing to look into other options. We are not talking about the choice between high speed rail and no high speed rail. We are talking about whether we can do it more cheaply. The money we save could solve a lot of social problems."

Engineers say the main reason for the high cost is that most of the link, including the 140,000 square metre terminus, is being built underground.

One possible alternative has already been flatly rejected by the government, which says it is impracticable and its pricing unrealistic.

An engineers' organisation, Professional Commons, proposed moving the Hong Kong terminus to Kam Sheung Road in the New Territories, from where passengers could travel to the city by West Rail, cutting the overall cost of the scheme to HK$25 billion. Included in the price - proposed at a time when the government's estimate for its plan was just HK$39.5 billion - would be a line to connect Kam Sheung Road station with the Airport Express at Tsing Yi.

Group chairman Albert Lai said a Kam Sheung Road terminus would be in easy reach of 3.5 million people, including New Territories residents.

"The beauty of a city-centre terminus in West Kowloon is only a mirage. The planning constraints we have created in the past will make the terminus costly to build and inconvenient to use. Worse still, the over-congestion it generates will be many times worse than what Times Square has done to Causeway Bay. Planning disasters like these are simply irreversible once built," Lai said.

The terminus will be a state-of-the-art structure, with three levels all below ground. The 26 kilometre link that runs from it will pass through twin tunnels and under Golden Hill, Tai Mo Shan and Kai Kung Leng hills.

Even though he thinks the line should be built, So distrusts the government's projected employment benefits and economic returns, which also include an economic rate of return - calculated by putting a dollar value on time savings - of 6 per cent and annual operating profit of about HK$600 million.

"It is reasonable to discount what the government proclaims. The economic returns you can discount by half. And the employment, 10,000 jobs, is, I think, including the employment created by the West Kowloon Cultural District. If it doesn't paint a rosy picture, how can [the government] convince people to support it?" To recoup the cost, he says, the fare would have to be HK$2,000 per journey.

Those who mistrust government projections can point to Disneyland where the figures have, to put it unkindly, proved to be Mickey Mouse.

The HK$21 billion deal between the government and the Walt Disney Company was predicted to boost the economy by HK$148 billion over 40 years, eight times the total cost. The then chief executive Tung Chee-hwa called it a vote of confidence in the city and its future.

The reality is very different. Only about five million people visited the park in 2005, its first year of operation, short of the 5.6 million target. Ten years after the deal was signed, the government now says Disneyland will bring HK$64.7 billion in net economic benefits over 40 years.

The 140 kilometre link from West Kowloon to Shibi in the satellite city of Panyu includes intermediate stations at Futian and Longhua in Shenzhen, and Humen in Dongguan . Two stations - Gongming in Dongguan and Dongcong in Panyu - will be added later.

It will take just 48 minutes to reach Shibi from West Kowloon, but passengers whose destination is Guangzhou's business district of Tianhe will have to transit to the metro and ride another 18 stops.

Construction is due to start by the end of this year and be completed in 2015.

One reason for the government's desire to get started is that it is lagging behind the mainland side, with the Panyu terminus expected to be completed early next year. Hong Kong's late start has prompted taunts from across the border about the city being half-hearted towards the link.

Professor Zheng Tianxiang , a transport specialist at Guangzhou's Sun Yat-sen University and a strong advocate of closer cross-border co-operation, was thrilled by the news that the project had been approved.

"It will be very convenient in the future," he said after watching the news on television. He said Hongkongers would be able to go to Zhuhai and Nansha by rail. "Railway transport is more reliable [than ferries or coaches]. It will be not affected by bad weather, such as typhoons."

But Zheng thinks the express will eventually sound the death knell for the through train.

"The through train looks ridiculously expensive now. Unless it cuts prices, it is not going to survive. But it is not going to cut prices because otherwise, the passengers will not go to the high speed rail. The move is so obvious - the Hong Kong government wants to boost the high speed rail's popularity." he said.


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## hkskyline

*Engineers to be consulted over HK$65b rail link *
22 October 2009
SCMP

Lawmakers will consider the views of an engineers' group that has called for cost-slashing changes to the planned cross-border express rail link before deciding whether to approve funding for the HK$65.2 billion project

The Legislative Council's railway subcommittee will meet today to discuss the final design for the project and the latest estimate - a 65 per cent blowout from the original HK$39.5 billion - which is set to provide an annual financial return of just one per cent.

Professional Commons, the engineers' group which says billions of dollars could be saved if the terminus was moved from West Kowloon to Kam Sheung Road in the New Territories, has asked to be heard before lawmakers vote on the project.

Civic Party legislator Ronny Tong Ka-wah said he would raise the request at today's meeting, adding that lawmakers should not give approval easily before considering the group's proposal.

"We should find out why the terminus and alignment cannot be changed," Tong said. He said moving the terminus would halve the cost and the village of Tsoi Yuen Chuen, where residents are opposing plans to remove them to make way for a depot, would be saved.

The Transport and Housing Bureau has said the group's proposal would involve even more land clearance than the present plan and the cost was likely to be much higher than the HK$25 billion the engineers estimated.

The rise in the link's cost has not only pushed down the economic rate of return - calculated by putting a dollar value on time savings - from nine per cent to six per cent, but it will take the government 100 years to recover the cost, given an expected annual profit of about HK$600 million a year.

The MTR usually requires a financial rate of return on its new railway projects of between 1 to 3 per cent after deducting investment and operational costs.

The administration has never calculated this figure but the expected annual profit against the total capital cost of HK$65.2 billion works out to less than 1 per cent.

A government official said the project was obviously not commercially viable, which was why a service-concession approach was adopted, with the government paying for and owning the line while the MTR Corporation operated it.

The compensation package for villagers affected by the project has also turned out to be much higher than expected.

The government said on Tuesday that spending on compensation cost HK$86 million but it was disclosed yesterday that this did not include a special HK$2 billion compensation package for land owners.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Eva Cheng said the unusually generous compensation offer was justified because of the link's importance. "It is a multi-functional railway," she said. "It takes you quickly and conveniently to 16 major cities on the mainland. It will reshape travel patterns, with choosing the environmentally-friendly link over short-haul flights."

Cheng reiterated that the link was intended to be profitable and that the economic benefits it would bring to the community in areas such as tourism were incalculable.

When the link starts service in 2016, it will take 14 minutes and cost HK$45 and HK$49 to Futian and Longhua in Shenzhen, while a trip to Shibi in Guangzhou will take 42 minutes and cost HK$180.

With these fares, the link is expected to hit hard the existing MTR through train to Guangzhou, which costs HK$190 for an almost two-hour journey, and also cross-border buses, which have similar fares but are much slower.

Sammy Chow Hing-wong, chairman of the Hong Kong Guangdong Boundary Crossing Bus Association, said up to 70 per cent of the companies now operating bus trips to Guangzhou may be wiped out.

"Competition is out of the question - a bus trip from Jordan to Guangzhou takes three and a half hours, so businessmen will surely switch to rail."

Government figures project that most cross-border transport services will still enjoy growth by 2016 - especially cross-border buses, for which officials expect patronage to rise by 6.6 per cent, with more people crossing the border.

But Chow doubted this.

"First, I don't believe the number of people going across the border will bounce so much in eight years. Second, if there is an increase in commuters, the growth will go mostly to the rail link," he said.


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## urbanfan89

The issue of immigration is still the biggest stumbling block to this line: if we have Chinese customs pre-clearance in the Hong Kong terminal, would mainland law apply in the terminal?

If so, it will be a PR disaster for Hong Kong if, say, a North Korean defector arrives in West Kowloon and is immediately deported to China and North Korea where he is sent to a gulag. If not, the terminal will become a magnet for all sorts of people who can travel to West Kowloon without restrictions and then claim asylum, which would be another PR disaster.

On the other hand, not having China immigration at the terminal will limit the variety of destinations served from WKT, which will reduce the effetiveness of the line.


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## hkskyline

urbanfan89 said:


> The issue of immigration is still the biggest stumbling block to this line: if we have Chinese customs pre-clearance in the Hong Kong terminal, would mainland law apply in the terminal?
> 
> If so, it will be a PR disaster for Hong Kong if, say, a North Korean defector arrives in West Kowloon and is immediately deported to China and North Korea where he is sent to a gulag. If not, the terminal will become a magnet for all sorts of people who can travel to West Kowloon without restrictions and then claim asylum, which would be another PR disaster.
> 
> On the other hand, not having China immigration at the terminal will limit the variety of destinations served from WKT, which will reduce the effetiveness of the line.


Good points.

I'm thinking whether passengers leaving the mainland will need to clear immigration in China first instead?

Illegal immigration from China isn't so much of a problem these days. On the other hand, we are seeing an increased number of South Asian illegals coming in, many by boat. I believe Hong Kong law allows them to work while they make an asylum claim.


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## hkskyline

*Critics steamed up on `isolated' terminal plan *
The Standard
Thursday, November 05, 2009

Academics have called on the government to explore other options for the Express Rail Link terminal other than West Kowloon.

City University public and social administration professor Joseph Cheng Yu-shek said the link would cost each taxpayer about HK$10,000.

He said West Kowloon is not the most convenient location for most Hongkongers, especially those who live in the New Territories.

"They will have to spend extra time and transport fares to travel to West Kowloon before they can ride on the express link," Cheng said.

His view was echoed by University of Science and Technology social scientist Chen Yun-Chung who said the choice of West Kowloon was more intended to facilitate the area's development rather than benefiting the community.

"West Kowloon is like an isolated zone, so is the location of the upcoming terminal," Chen said.

"The government would need to spend a lot to build new infrastructure to bring the traffic to the terminal if it is built in West Kowloon. We wonder whether it is worth doing this."

Last month, the Executive Council gave the green light to the controversial Express Rail Link between Hong Kong and Shenzhen.

But the project faces more problems than its cost - HK$54 billion - exceeding its original estimate by HK$14.5 billion.

The government hopes to start building the 26-kilometer Hong Kong section of the 140 km link to Guangzhou by the end of the year.

If it does not keep to that schedule, an insider warned the cost could balloon further.

Under the government plan, the line will pass Choi Yuen Tsuen, which will become an emergency station. That would mean the clearance of 150 households, or about 500 villagers.


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## solowoo

I'm surprised to see West Kowloon being described as an isolated zone. It's within walking distance from Jordan and western Tsim Sha Tsui. With one transit, passengers can reach places from Tuen Mun to Wu Kai Sha (by the time it's built), and from Tung Chung / Airport to Central, even Chai Wan eventually.

For anybody interested:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=22.30...22.3042,114.166312&spn=0.084809,0.146599&z=13


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## foxmulder

isolated means too much in the center. like pen station in New York. it creates unnecessary traffic jams. they claim if they build it outside the city center accessing to station will be easier.


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## urbanfan89

hkskyline said:


> I'm thinking whether passengers leaving the mainland will need to clear immigration in China first instead?


Doing so would vastly limit the number of destinations that could be served from WKT. Many stations would need immigration facilities for two trains a week, which sounds dubious.



> Illegal immigration from China isn't so much of a problem these days. On the other hand, we are seeing an increased number of South Asian illegals coming in, many by boat. I believe Hong Kong law allows them to work while they make an asylum claim.


Perhaps not from China, but this rail link would be an easy way out for anyone fleeing China, whether for a good reason (North Korean defectors) or bad (a fugitive murderer). Whether to allow PRC law to apply in the terminal becomes a "heads you lose, tails I win" situation.


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## hkskyline

*Panyu rail hub set to shift focal point of Guangzhou by 2020, academic says *
6 November 2009
SCMP

When the first train from Hong Kong on the controversial express line to Guangzhou stops at the terminus in Shibi, Panyu, it will have arrived at the nucleus of a burgeoning new city, part of the provincial capital's southward expansion.

In 2015, when the Hong Kong section of the line is due for completion, a 350km/h line to Wuhan will have been operating for three years and by 2020 the station - one of Asia's biggest with a footprint of 150,000 square metres - will encompass three such high-speed lines to key cities, a light-rail system and three metro lines.

And this, according to Professor Zheng Tianxiang, is why Hongkongers should be pleased - not unhappy - that their HK$65 billion line will terminate at Shibi rather than the present city centre at Tianhe, which he says will eventually be eclipsed by new developments.

Zheng, of the Pearl River Delta research centre at Zhongshan University, and MTR Corporation officials sang the praises of Shibi during a media tour to the site organised by the MTR this week.

"Some Hong Kong intellectuals ask why the high-speed train station was not located in downtown Guangzhou," Zheng said. "But the area around the existing Guangzhou East Station has little land for further development, and if you acquire lots of land to build a train station in downtown Guangzhou, it wouldn't be very economical or efficient."

He said central government studies predicted that the population of the Tianhe district would grow from one million in 2005 to 1.39 million in 2020, while the population of Panyu district around Shibi would grow from 1.25 million in 2005 to 2.03 million in 2020.

As Guangzhou developed, the centre of the city would shift south towards Shibi and the district around Guangzhou East Station would no longer be a growth area, Zheng said.

He also echoed the Hong Kong government's line that the links to the national rail network were more important than direct access to the present city centre - 45 minutes by metro from the new terminus.

"Hong Kong wants to be an international city and China's hub. If Hong Kong doesn't link to China's high-speed rail, it will be hard to achieve this," said Zheng, a consultant for various infrastructure projects in Hong Kong and the Pearl River Delta including the Hong Kong-Macau-Zhuhai Bridge.

By 2012, that link will be right on the border - waiting for Hong Kong trains to roll through three years later - as high-speed trains from Beijing through Wuhan and Shibi reach Futian in Shenzhen.

By 2020, as well as the Hong Kong-Guangzhou express line and the Wuhan-Guangzhou line, Shibi will include a westward railway that will branch into two lines, one to Guizhou and one to Nanning .

The 200 billion yuan (HK$227.33 billion), 2,000-kilometre light railway will serve nine cities in the Pearl River Delta, including Guangzhou, Dongguan , Shenzhen, Zhongshan , Zhuhai and Foshan . By 2020, Guangdong would have 2,800 kilometres of high-speed rail line at a cost of 150 million yuan per kilometre, or a total of 420 billion yuan, Zheng said.

MTR Pearl River Delta planning manager Albert Yuen acknowledged that progress on the Hong Kong section - still bedevilled by compensation wrangles - seemed slow.

"It would be much faster in China. In China you can work 24 hours per day, while Hong Kong has restrictions on work due to noise and environment," Yuen said.

MTR Express Rail Link general manager Paul Lo Po-hing said that initially the MTR would acquire nine high-speed trains of eight cars each for a total cost of between HK$1 billion and HK$2 billion. Eventually this would increase to more than 20 trains. High-speed trains would depart from Hong Kong every 15 minutes during peak times and every 30 minutes off-peak, Lo said.

Meanwhile, a survey by the Civic Party has indicated that 41 per cent of Hong Kong residents think there has been inadequate public consultation about the rail plan.

In a poll of 650 residents, only 20 per cent of respondents thought there had been enough consultation. Another 38 per cent had no opinion.

The survey also found that 18 per cent of respondents were in favour of building the terminus in West Kowloon, while 55 per cent believed it could be built elsewhere.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Panyu rail hub set to shift focal point of Guangzhou by 2020, academic says *
> 6 November 2009
> SCMP
> 
> When the first train from Hong Kong on the controversial express line to Guangzhou stops at the terminus in Shibi, Panyu, it will have arrived at the nucleus of a burgeoning new city, part of the provincial capital's southward expansion.
> 
> In 2015, when the Hong Kong section of the line is due for completion, a 350km/h line to Wuhan will have been operating for three years


Wrong. A minimum of 5 years, since it shall open next month:
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2009-10-09/040618791776.shtml


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## EricIsHim

hkskyline said:


> Good points.
> 
> I'm thinking whether passengers leaving the mainland will need to clear immigration in China first instead?


Yes. 

All other terminals in the mainland China that run trains to HK have to make room for immigration and custom counters. Just because we are under "One Country, Two Systems," we are making many stations in the Mainland and the whole country to fit what we need. We are getting spoiled in some sense. :lol:

But I believe that's the same today.




hkskyline said:


> Illegal immigration from China isn't so much of a problem these days. On the other hand, we are seeing an increased number of South Asian illegals coming in, many by boat. I believe Hong Kong law allows them to work while they make an asylum claim.


And yes, if the II is on asylum status, s/he can work in HK legally under the UN statue or something. That's why we a the hot spot for SE Asian and African.


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## EricIsHim

The whole terminal location should be in Kam Sheung Road and be more convenient for the NT residents is just BS.

I live in Southern District, and I can throw out the same argument Kam Sheung Road is too far away from me and not convenient. West Kowloon is much better, why don't you extend it across the harbour as well.

This HSR service should just run right into the heart of the city, not to the outskirt. It isn't an airport.

I agree there could be a station in the NT, may run part-time service, but I don't think it should be the terminal.


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## hkskyline

With that logic the line should end at Shenzhen Luohu / Lok Ma Chau and we MTR the rest of the way.


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## aab7772003

Exactly; the critics should have stopped at the cost argument. 

WK is a new district; it will take time to mature. I still remember all the Chek Lap Kok critics making claims that Chek Lap Kok would be too far from everywhere, Kai Tak could cope by having another runway, the new airport should be built between Kennedy Town and Green Island through reclamination, etc. The CLK location makes the Zuhai Bridge much more strategic sense and provides room for a possible third runway. 

Besides, the future terminus is well connected to Central through Airport Express. MTR needs to be creative with its future ticket pricing, such as including airport express ride between Hong Kong and Kowloon stations as part of the HSR fare to Guangzhou and Shenzhen.

You cannot always get space and convenience at the same time; this is especially true in Hong Kong.


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## EricIsHim

People that raise their voice are mostly the short sighted politicians versus planners who see the future.


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## gakei

Please see Pages 22, 23 and 24 of the following Legco document. The design of West Kowloon Terminus appears to have minor changes.

http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr09-10/chinese/panels/tp/tp_rdp/papers/tp_rdp1022cb1-166-1-ec.pdf


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## aab7772003

As much as I believe in the strategic value of the high speed railway line, I think that the original through train services should be maintained. Guangzhou and Shenzhen are spreading out fast; not all passengers want to go to the same places.


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## hkskyline

A HSR is needed, but that doesn't mean it comes at any price. The current price tag is too big, considering other major projects such as the cultural district have not had that kind of budget luxury.


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## hkskyline

*Thousands to feel the noise from rail link construction 
Many pupils, elderly residents have not been told of project*
9 November 2009
South China Morning Post

Tens of thousands of people living and working along the controversial new cross-border high-speed railway - including many living in multimillion-dollar luxury apartments - face years of noise pollution.

An MTR Corporation environmental impact assessment report produced this year says that at least 65 commercial and residential buildings will be hit by noise during the construction of the line, which will last until 2015.

Most of the affected buildings are in West Kowloon, Nam Cheong and Shek Kong, with noise coming from the massive drilling and blasting works required to complete the line's underground stations and tunnel.

Developments worth more than HK$10,000 per square foot in The Arch, another in The Waterfront and one block in the Sorrento above Kowloon Station will all face noise levels above the acceptable 75 decibels during construction, despite sound-proofing measures.

Engineers say 70 to 75dB of noise is equivalent to having a busy road directly outside an apartment.

The 26-kilometre Hong Kong section will be built entirely underground and run from the West Kowloon terminus to the mainland via Mong Kok, Kwai Tsing District, Tsuen Wan and Mai Po.

Despite construction getting under way by the end of the year, residents in the areas to be affected have not received information about the potential noise impact.

The Executive Council has given approval to the cross-border express railway with a price tag of HK$65.2 billion. Land owners from Tsoi Yuen Tsuen first drew the public's attention to the railway when they began protesting about the demolition of their homes to make way for a depot.

The MTR Corp's environmental impact assessment report named several areas - described as noise-sensitive zones - that would most likely be affected by noise. The report shows public housing estates, homes for the elderly, village houses, schools and luxury flats within the zones.

It recommends that for homes for the elderly, construction noise, after mitigation measures, should not exceed 70dB, the equivalent of the noise generated by a vacuum cleaner. It also sets the daytime construction-noise maximum for schools at 65dB during examinations and 70dB during normal school hours.

However, the report predicts that Ying Wa College, Sham Shui Po, will suffer noise of up to 70dB; Yaumati Catholic Primary School up to 74dB; and that noise pollution at HKIVE Haking Wong Waterfront Annex on Lai Chi Kok Road may exceed the recommended maximum by 3dB to 7dB for about 34 months.

Luxury developments in West Kowloon are not to be spared. Sky Tower at The Arch will have noise levels of up to 70dB, while its neighbouring Moon Tower will suffer up to 76dB. Tower 3 of The Waterfront on top of Kowloon Station will hear levels of up to 78dB.

The report also points out that after the line opens the residents of Shui Hong Nursing Home at Cheung Shan Estate, Kwai Chung, will face continuing noise from a ventilation shaft about 75 metres away. Chan Wing-hung, a social worker at the home, expressed concern for the health of the 100 residents aged 60 to 96. "I have not yet received any notice about the rail. We will study the impact if we are informed and, if problems affect us, we will speak out."

Ying Wa College has 1,200 pupils and its primary section, Ying Wa Primary School, has 1,000. But principal Roger Lee Chee-wah said he had little information on how the project would affect the school.

"Our school has not yet received any consultation on the railway. I have not yet received phone calls or letters," he said. "The predicted noise of 70 decibels falls within the criteria. But {hellip} the standard should be stricter for schools. Students need a quiet environment for learning."

The situation was somewhat different at HKIVE Haking Wong, a vocational training school. Principal Winnie Ngan Shuk-yin said the annex on Lai Chi Kok Road was used as an electrical workshop. "Representatives of related parties had meetings with us. We also agreed that the construction works would be temporarily suspended if needed. Actually, students do drilling at the workshop, which also creates noise. So the rail works would not affect us much."

Fu Cheong Estate, across the road from Ying Wa College, has two blocks expected to be affected by construction noise. But nine of 10 residents interviewed said they had no idea on how construction work would affect their lives.

Leung Kin-hoi, 25, who lives with her husband and child at the estate, said she was worried about the impact on health. "I have not heard of construction works near my estate. I worry that it might affect my child's studies and health. Noise would disturb my child's sleep," she said.

Kenny Wong Kai-ming, 22, who lives in Tower 1 of The Waterfront, said he did not know the location of the railway but was concerned that the noise might disturb his studies.

The report said the contractor should liaise with schools and avoid noisy construction work during examinations. It also recommended that mitigation measures such as silencers and mufflers be used on construction equipment.

Peter Wong Yiu-sun, a former president of the Institute of Engineers, said that the heavy machinery used in the early stages of construction would be quite noisy.

"Preparation of the construction site, especially moving heavy machines or drilling the first hole in the ground, will cause noise," he said.

"But the impact also depends on ambient noise and the distance of affected parties from the source of the noise."

Maggie So Man-kit, senior manager of projects and property communications at the MTR Corp, said equipment and site practices would aim to keep noise to a minimum. However, there would be times when noise would be unavoidable.

She said the contractors would be instructed to work with schools and community facilities such as nursing homes, and that public forums and meetings with owners committees had been organised. The committees of the properties on top of Kowloon Station had been informed via their management offices.

MTR Corp general manager of the express rail link, Paul Lo Po-hing, pledged the company would take all measures possible to reduce environmental noise and vibration from the project.

"We have to submit the environmental assessment report before the construction. We have to get the permit before starting construction. In the permit, we would outline the measures to be taken," he said.

Meanwhile, the Transport and Housing Bureau said it would ensure the project complied with the conditions on the environmental permits.


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## foxmulder

oh god...! This is starting to be funny.


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## EricIsHim

gakei said:


> Please see Pages 22, 23 and 24 of the following Legco document. The design of West Kowloon Terminus appears to have minor changes.
> 
> http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr09-10/chinese/panels/tp/tp_rdp/papers/tp_rdp1022cb1-166-1-ec.pdf


If the station has one entry on each eastern and western end directly connecting to Kowloon Station and Austion Station, does that argument on 12 minutes walk from the station to the other MTR stations go away?


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## EricIsHim

hkskyline said:


> *Thousands to feel the noise from rail link construction
> Many pupils, elderly residents have not been told of project*
> 9 November 2009
> South China Morning Post
> 
> Developments worth more than HK$10,000 per square foot in The Arch, another in The Waterfront and one block in the Sorrento above Kowloon Station will all face noise levels above the acceptable 75 decibels during construction, despite sound-proofing measures.


Take that 5-year, and the 10k/sf property will become 15k/sf at no cost to the owners.
If people look at it that way, I think most of them would be more than happy to deal with the day time noise when they are out at works anyways.


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## superchan7

The PDF has an interesting design for the WKD terminus.


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## hkskyline

EricIsHim said:


> Take that 5-year, and the 10k/sf property will become 15k/sf at no cost to the owners.
> If people look at it that way, I think most of them would be more than happy to deal with the day time noise when they are out at works anyways.


People want risk-less return, and those living in high class areas don't want their peace disturbed and still enjoy a 50% capital gain!


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## hkskyline

foxmulder said:


> In 40 years, they will be one country anyway


Well, at this point all the key cross-border projects require individual environmental assessments, alignment consideration, and funding on both sides of the border.

However, that doesn't stop mainland banks from participating in the funding, although they won't likely do it at a below market rate.


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## hkskyline

*New front opens in fight against hi-speed rail link *
The Standard
Monday, January 04, 2010

Dozens of protesters marched from Tai Kok Tsui to Mong Kok yesterday to call on functional constituency legislators to derail the HK$67 billion high speed railway connecting Hong Kong to Guangzhou.

The demonstrators said lawmakers should put peoples' interests ahead of their narrow electoral base, saying the railway would cause unbearable noise pollution to residents in some districts and could cause a number of old buildings with poor foundations to collapse.

The Legislative Council's finance committee is due to vote on funding for the link on Friday, the pan-democrats having frustrated a previous attempt on December 18 with delay tactics. 

Yesterday, Tai Kok Tsui and Choi Yuen Chuen residents marched from a park in Tai Kok Tsui to Mong Kok through Fuk Tsun Street and Mong Kok Road, areas they say will be affected by the Hong Kong section of the link.

Their opposition comes on the back of angry protests from New Territories villagers who claim the link will destroy their way of life. Spokeswoman for the protesters, Kwong Wei-fong, said some of the roads in Tai Kok Tsui would sink and at least 14 buildings along Fuk Tsun Street could collapse once the railway starts operating.

"The 14 buildings have no foundation as they are very old. When a fast train passes, the buildings might not be able to stand the vibrations," she said.

The Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will connect West Kowloon to the Shibi Station at Guangzhou, passing through Futian and Longhua in Shenzhen.

It will slash travel time from 100 to 50 minutes, according to the Highways Department.

The rail will also pass through Lok Ma Chau and Choi Yuen Chuen in Yuen Long.

A Kwai Chung resident, surnamed Lau, said he joined the protest as he feared the noise during the railway's construction might affect him.

"The noise is expected to last three to fours years. It will be unbearable," he said.


----------



## foxmulder

All the listed excuses are so lame. During every construction, if someone is against it for any reason they say "they are buildings that may collapse and the noise will be too much bla bla blaaaaaaaaaa...."


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## Angsa

If the HSR is soooo important, then why doesn't it link to Macau?

Why not include high speed rail with the Macau Zhuhai - Hong Kong bridge?

The rail is being built because the banks, construction companies and land owners want to make money out of govt projects. The banks are salivating at the interests that they are going to get from the $66.9 billion construction cost, which will give them more than $2.4 billion in interest alone per year, 100% guaranteed with 0% risk.


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## hkskyline

*Tug-of-war over express rail link gathers steam*
The Standard
Thursday, January 07, 2010 

Pan-democrats and pro-establishment lawmakers are engaged in a heated tug-of-war over the funding of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, due for voting at tomorrow's finance committee meeting.

The pan-democrats said yesterday the local expert group, Professional Commons, should be given a chance to explain their proposal tomorrow. 

The finance committee will hold a special meeting today to decide whether Professional Commons can be given that opportunity. 

The committee had failed to vote on the HK$66.8 billion project last month when the Civic Party and the League of Social Democrats lawmakers asked other legislators to declare interest in the project. 

But the Liberal Party's Miriam Lau Kin-yee said the group turned down their invitation to appear at the subcommittee and instead would attend the full session.

Lawmaker Jeffrey Lam Kin-fung of Economic Synergy said he will not accept delay tactics anymore and that their survey showed 63 percent of people supported Legco funding the project.

"If the pan-democrats ask the same questions again, I will ask the [finance committee] chairwoman [Emily Lau Wai-hing] to stop them and request an immediate vote," he said.

The group polled 317 people at the Hung Hom MTR station early this month and found 65 percent supported the Hong Kong section of the fast rail and another 63 percent supported the funding.

But lawmaker Albert Chan Wai-yip of the League of Social Democrats said he will use every means to stop the vote, with league members tabling motions until the meeting ended. 

In other incidents yesterday related to the rail project:

Several groups ran newspaper advertisements, some backing and others opposing the funding proposal; 

Dozens of protesters marched from Admiralty to the Legislative Council and vowed to organize 10,000 people to surround the building tomorrow in a peaceful protest; 

Six young people went on the second day of their four-day kowtow-every-26-step trek from Sheung Shui to Central to urge lawmakers to veto the funding; 

Lau Wong-fat, the Heung Yee Kuk chairman, said he has been helping Choi Yuen Tsuen villagers, who will be displaced by the railway construction, find farmland sites. The villagers also held a press conference denouncing the plan.


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## hkskyline

*Hundreds protest costly railway project in Hong Kong*
8 January 2010




























HONG KONG, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Hundreds in Hong Kong ringed the city's legislature on Friday as public frustration mounted over government attempts to bulldoze through a high speed railway, an issue that has also catalysed a fresh push for full democracy.

The HK$66.9 billion ($8.6 billion) high speed railway linking Hong Kong to the southern Chinese city of Guangzhou has been championed by officials as a vital infrastructure project that could bring upwards of HK$87 billion in economic benefits over 50 years by vastly cutting travel times to Chinese cities.

Public bitterness has grown, however, over the planned razing of a village and rural swathes to make way for the project, along with growing cost estimates that now make the rail link one of the most expensive in the world on a per kilometer basis.

Outside the city's legislature, Hong Kongers ranging from grizzled activists and villagers facing eviction, to young protesters feverishly posting updates on Twitter and Facebook, appealed to lawmakers inside not to approve funding for the rail-link that will augment a slower existing one to Guangzhou.

"The government has never asked us what we want," said Chu Hoi-dick, a young activist who opposed the demolition of Hong Kong's historic Star Ferry clock tower several years ago.

The rail link has also become a lightning rod for the venting of broader discontent at Hong Kong's lack of democracy and government accountability for major policies.

Pro-democracy politicians are poised to resign en-masse from the city's legislature this month in frustration at what they say is too slow a pace in political reforms.

"Hong Kong's role is changing in that no longer are we a so-called economic city. Hong Kong is fully aware that to stand up for our rights is the only way to safeguard our future," said Albert Lai, chairman of the Professional Commons.

The Commons is an influential coalition of working professionals, whose detailed proposal for a cheaper alternative rail link with fewer disruptions has so far fallen on deaf government ears.

A vote on the rail link wasn't expected until late evening.

Earlier this week, Leung Chun-ying, a senior member of Hong Kong's cabinet, warned of growing public discontent, fuelled in part from a yawning income gap and high property prices.

"Such a politically-alienated majority may perhaps at present have little capacity to disrupt economic life or political decision-making but within 10 years ... this will no longer be so," he wrote in an article in the Hong Kong Journal this week.

An average of 99,000 passengers are expected by 2016 to travel daily on the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong link, which will join Hong Kong to China's high-speed rail network.

Officials have warned of great costs of further delays, while a fresh wave of Chinese visitors are expected to bring tourism, retail, logistics and other economic benefits.

Construction worker unions have also marched in support of the rail-link, saying it will bring thousands of new jobs.


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## NCT

Oh NIMBYs ...


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## foxmulder

Lady with the yellow shirt is enjoying the fight


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## hkskyline

*Greens seek student power for Legco express rail protest *
The Standard
Monday, January 11, 2010

A green group has called for students to join its protest outside the Legislative Council on Friday against the building of the Guangzhou- Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link terminal in West Kowloon.

Green Sense is sending invitations to 400 secondary schools and hoping that 50 to 100 schools will respond.

Funding approval was stalled last Friday after the Legco Finance Committee debated the issue for six hours without the issue coming to a vote. The meeting will continue on Friday.

"People born in the post-1990s are experiencing an over-developed Hong Kong. For their future and fortune, I hope they will voice their concern," Green Sense president Tam Hoi-pong said. "Age is not an issue when one wishes to express one's views, as long as it is done in a peaceful way. I believe the young are mature enough to differentiate right from wrong." 

Tam will liaise with the Post-80s Anti- Express Rail Group through Facebook to encourage more of them to join in the protests.

Green Sense said setting up the rail terminus in Kam Sheung Road would result in the government's HK$66.9 billion proposal dropping dramatically by HK$50 billion.

Liberal Studies teacher Cheung Yui-fai, from PLK Lee Shing Pik College, said he will bring his students to the assembly.

Leung Yu-fung, 12, and fellow Choi Yuen Tsuen resident Tse Man-kit, 18, said they will join the action.

"Violent action will not win support from the majority of the people," Leung said.

Hong Kong Federation of Education Workers president Yeung Yiu-chung said most people support the construction of the railway.

Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Union chairman Cheung Man-kwong said it is up to students and teachers to attend the assembly.

"Students and teachers are free to voice their concern, as long as they do so voluntarily," Cheung said.

Meanwhile, Hong Thai Travel predicts a 15 percent growth in tourist arrivals for the Lunar New Year thanks to the economic recovery and the shortening of travel time through the Wuhan- Guangzhou High-Speed Rail.

Senior operations manager Sunny Yuen Chi- sun also said: "The opening of the line on October 26 "has largely shortened the travelling time by half from six hours between Hong Kong and Xiaoguan. Tours for Changsha and Shaoguan could be threefold more this year."


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## YannSZ

Party poopers!


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## leo_sh

Dump HK. It's now an out city.


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## solowoo

The funding was approved in the Legislative Council yesterday. A protest-turned-miniriot ensued.


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## foxmulder

So it is certain now?


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## sasalove

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy89EYKLzP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hnne7brqHo


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## solowoo

foxmulder said:


> So it is certain now?


Well, yes, unless it becomes another Narita Airport.


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## Skybean




----------



## Gaeus

JANUARY 17, 2010, 5:14 P.M. ET 
*Hong Kong Approves China Rail Link *

*Clashes between riot police and protesters outside legislature could signal more conflict over political reforms*

_*By JONATHAN CHENG *_​ 
*HONG KONG*--The government here won a tough battle to fund a controversial railway project, but an ugly showdown Saturday between protesters and riot police wielding pepper spray could signal more conflict to come over highly contested political reforms.










European Pressphoto Agency An activist calls on authorities to use 66.9 billion Hong Kong dollars to end poverty rather than on the high-speed rail link.​ 

Opposition to those reforms from prodemocracy lawmakers who say they fall short of Hong Kong's democratic aspirations provoked a rare statement of "serious concern" Friday from Beijing's State Council, or cabinet. Some of these lawmakers plan to resign en masse, forcing by-elections they say amount to a referendum on Hong Kong's constitutional future.

Saturday night's vote clears the way for an $8.6 billion high-speed railway that will link Hong Kong to the southern Chinese cities of Shenzhen and Guangzhou by 2015, integrating Hong Kong more closely with the mainland economy.

Protesters here said the railway benefited private interests at the expense of local residents, and was pushed on the public without proper consultation or consideration for cheaper alternatives.

On Saturday, hundreds of angry protesters surrounded the legislature. As scores of riot police wielding plastic shields and pepper spray were dispatched to block their way, traffic in much of the city's main downtown district shut down for several hours.

Inside the legislative chamber, opposition lawmakers used filibuster-style tactics to turn what was to have been a procedural vote into a two-day marathon session. The railway vote was eventually approved by a 31-21 vote along largely partisan lines, with the opposition minority losing out to the pro-establishment lawmakers that dominate the legislature.

After the vote, protesters beat drums, cried "Long Live People Power" and lay down in mass groups on major streets to block government officials from leaving the legislature.

Eva Cheng, Hong Kong's secretary for transport and housing, was trapped in her car for six hours in the legislature's parking lot, and was only able to leave after sneaking into a nearby subway station after midnight under heavy protection from police officers.

In coming months, lawmakers will vote again on whether to approve a package of constitutional reforms that the government says will move Hong Kong towards eventual direct elections. Prodemocracy opposition legislators who believe the reforms are insufficient came up with their "referendum" idea as a way to demonstrate public opposition.

The State Council said any attempt to resign en masse would be a challenge to Beijing's leadership and stir up further conflict.

"Hong Kong Special Administrative Region is a regional administrative unit of the People's Republic of China, and has no powers to invent a 'referendum' system," the State Council statement read, referring to Hong Kong by its full legal name. "There is no constitutional basis for any so-called 'referendum,' nor would it have any legal effect."

Hong Kong, a former British colony that is governed by separate laws than mainland China, was promised eventual direct elections by Beijing, but without a timetable. That's made the question of how and when to introduce direct elections a divisive one since Hong Kong's return to Chinese sovereignty in 1997, occasionally flaring up into mass demonstrations--most notably in 2003, when the issue helped bring an estimated 500,000 protesters into the streets. 

*Write to *_ Jonathan Cheng at [email protected]

_*Source*_
_​


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## hkskyline

*Post 80s rebels with a cause *
The Standard
Friday, January 15, 2010



















By the standards of many a Hong Kong demo, the six young protesters were model activists. They didn't chant or yell during four days and three nights of moving slowly but surely along rural roads and city streets to the beat of a single drum. Their only action was to prostrate themselves every 26 steps.

Their message, however, came over loud and clear: shelve existing plans for the SAR's 26-kilometer section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link and start the consultation process all over again.

"We have already presented our rationale in detail," says Wong Hin-yan, 24, who was at the head of the solemn line of six - all in their twenties - as they progressed from Sheung Shui to the Legislative Council in Central last week. "But the government has no intention of listening. It has deaf ears."

The young man in a white cotton shirt topped with a blue vest that had characters reading "Anti-Express Railway" on the front and "Suspend the Funding" on the back also said the march was "to express our views in a sentimental and spiritual way" and to make people "stop and think."

The marchers succeeded, though some of those who stopped did not think much of the action by the Post-80s Anti- Express Railway Group, set up in October after the Executive Council approved government plans for the HK$67 billion railway.

For, along with camera clicks, came insults and curses.

"They hardly use their brains," grumbled passer-by Patti Fung. "What they do is meaningl
ess. Have they nothing else to do? Our society needs compromises. We can talk some more about the construction cost if they find it too high. But the rail link must be built or Hong Kong will lag far behind."

Wong takes such criticism in his stride. "Perhaps they don't fully understand what we are trying to say," he says, claiming his group is not against progress. "We just want to raise awareness."

Caught in the rumpus over the actions of a new wave of activists - "Post-80s" is the handy tag for label- loving media - Wong wears a brave face.

"The media and the government are just trying to overgeneralize our images in various ways so that we appear not to have unique characters," he says. "I just do the things that I feel are right.

"I'm deeply dissatisfied with our society, particularly undemocratic urban planning and the legislature, as well as limited freedom of expression."

Indeed, Chan Kin-man, an associate professor of sociology at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, worries about generalizing a generation.

Most young people he knows on campus are more concerned about their personal lives, says Chan, and he doubts whether student movements today can mobilize people like they once did.

Social trends have changed markedly, he adds, with young

people taking advantage of the internet to get together with like-minded people.

"In the past, we had to join a non- governmental organization in order to participate in social movements," he remembers. "We also had to be careful about tactics and so were more rational and calculating to gain public support."

If "post-80s" includes being internet-savvy, then Wong is surely an activist product of the age. A music director-cum-graphic designer for theater productions, he connected with other activists largely via the internet.

The group he belongs to has 40 to 50 core members. About half were born in the 1980s and the rest in the late 1970s and early 1990s.

Most became friends when taking to the streets in campaigns like attempting to save Central's Star Ferry pier and Queen's Pier in 2007 - doing their bit to try to right wrongs, Wong says.

Stigmatizing her generation

In the struggle for attention on the shape of the rail project, the group has sought alternative forms of protest.

"We were all deeply moved by the peaceful tactics used by South Koreans in their World Trade Organization protests," Wong recalls.

That was in December 2005, when anti-free trade protesters gave local activists a new insight on rallying, including a three-step, one-kowtow march as trade ministers met in Wan Chai.

Also high on the new wave of youth- led social movements is Christina Chan Hau-man, 22, who made her mark with a Tibet flag during the runup to the Beijing Olympics.

The University of Hong Kong philosophy student was arrested on Saturday for allegedly assaulting a policewoman during scuffles outside the Central Government Liaison Office after a democracy march.

Chan, now on bail, dislikes people stigmatizing her generation. "We don't tend to use violence," she says. "We just fight back when the police try to suppress our freedom to demonstrate."

On the administration and its plans to study the post-80s generation, Chan says: "It's on the wrong track. It's not just the post-80s that are hitting the streets. It would be more practical for authorities to tackle political and social problems directly."

At 27, Ronald Chan Ngok-pang is of the same generation, but this Southern District councillor is also part of the system that protesters are fighting. Yet Chan says he too is much concerned about social issues, and he offers an alternative to recent protest action with a "been there, done that" flourish.

He went to the United States with the idea of becoming a doctor but switched to social science. He returned after seven years as a graduate of Stanford University's Public Policy Program.

Along the way, Chan says, he was really aggressive in his pursuit of political ideals, taking part in protests on a regular basis.

"I fought with the police and slept on the streets," he says with a chuckle about protests against the Iraq war. (It's not known whether brawling was on Chan's CV when he landed a job as director of policy development at the Savantas Policy Institute. The think- tank is bossed by legislator Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee, once the iron lady of the SAR's law-and-order apparatus.)

Such acts notwithstanding, Chan says he has always been inclined towards being measured and rational, and "running for elections is in my personality and aligned with my beliefs."

Hearts and minds

All in all, then, Chan reckons he has the experience to understand perfectly the reasoning of young people protesting now - and to say they are misguided in the way they are going about things.

Confrontations to undermine the government will not help to win people's hearts and minds, Chan argues, and he perceives a preference among the population at large for ideas to be advanced in a peaceful and rational manner.

But he covers his bases by urging the government to "listen to dissidents and make sure there are sufficient avenues for young people to make their voices heard so they do not resort to hitting the streets."

As for the express railway row, he encourages young protesters - "a small pocket of the population" - to try to understand the government's decision and the people's desire to see it built.

But Chinese University's Chan Kin- man thinks the government must take a longer-term view of life instead of single-mindedly chasing development if it is to earn the trust of young people.

"Take the express rail protests," he says. "Basically, the young do not trust what the government is saying about the economic gains because they know they will not be the ones enjoying the fruits of the labor."

The last word on the idea there is something new and perhaps alarming in social action by the young of today goes to "Long Hair" Leung Kwok- hung, who joins more demos in a month than most activists do in a lifetime.

"There's is no such thing as the post- 80s. People in other age groups have also joined in recent protests. No matter the era there is injustice in society. So it's normal to see people, including youngsters, taking to the streets to fight for their causes."


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## hkskyline

*HK Lawmakers Approve Funding For HK$66.9 Bln Rail Line*
16 January 2010

_Protesters force government officials to leave the Legislative Council with police escort._
































































HONG KONG (Dow Jones)--Hong Kong lawmakers on Saturday approved funding of a controversial HK$66.9 billion (US$8.62 billion) rail link that will connect Hong Kong to mainland cities of Guangzhou and Shenzhen.

The 26-kilometer Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link railway will help reinforce Hong Kong's status as a transport, financial and commercial hub of China, the government said earlier.

The government has faced heavy opposition for the project from the public and some lawmakers, who criticized the rail link as being too expensive to build. They said the government haven't adequately consulted the public before going forward with the multi-billion dollar plan.

The railway will connect downtown Hong Kong with China's national high-speed rail network. When the rail link is completed, travel time between Hong Kong and Beijing by rail will be reduced to 10 hours from over 30 hours at present, according to the Hong Kong government.


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## peacedot

foxmulder said:


> In 40 years, they will be one country anyway


It doesn't matter 40 years or not, Hong Kong was, is and will always be a part of China!


----------



## gakei

Scion said:


> Nice interiors, looks even better than the airport. Just don't like those irregular shaped buildings on top.


Looks like salmon sashimi if painted orange.

Anyway the buildings are not part of the XRL project. Those shown should only be for illustration only.


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## aab7772003

hkskyline said:


> It's true Hong Kong's relatively 'small' investment will reap great benefits as the CRH network will be quite big in China itself, and we will be a part of it, but given the technical limitations, it's not really going to give that much time benefit when trains can only run at 200km/h during the HK stretch.
> 
> I'm looking at this project with great jealousy while the cultural district next door is still sitting empty, with the great Foster canopy axed because of 'budget' limitations. Really shows how the government takes the importance of our arts scene.


I am pretty sure that the supposedly low-density development above the terminus will not end up so low-density (may be still low-density for Hong Kong) at the end. To put it in perspective, the building over the Frankfurt Airport high speed railway station (Airrail Center) is huge; it floats over a relatively small and certainly narrow strip of land. 

Pedestrian access to the termnius/area will probably be not an issue as eventually a spider web of foot-bridges and tunnels (subways) will be built. 

The current "indecision" over the WKD is probably a blessinig in disguise for the moment anyway as whatever is going on at the WKD will interfere with the construction of the terminus. On the other hand, the priorities of the Hong Kong government simply reflect the mentality of the local population. The majority of the local population still very much prefers economic development through infrastucture projects to the kind of culture the WKD is going to showcase. 11% of the Frankfurt city government´s annual budget is used to promote and nuture culture. 

Hopefully, the government will eventually build truly world-class facilities for the WKD when constructions at the WK terminus settle down. Union Square, Kowloon Park, the WKD, the WK highspeed rail terminus, Ocean Terminal and the Star Ferry Plaza can form a new dynamic and cosmopolitan district of Hong Kong. 

Again, what kind of buildings/complexes will be built on the large half-circle plot of land directly north of Union Square?


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## hkskyline

*Democrats find rail room to maneuver *
14 January 2010
The Standard

Pan-democrat lawmakers have secured a room inside the Legislative Council for an expert team to be at hand during the politically-charged debate on funding for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link.

Legco's Finance Committee has set tomorrow and Saturday for the debate to discuss the HK$67 billion project, after the vote has been delayed twice.

Civic Party vice-chairman Albert Lai Kwong- tak said he and six other railway experts will take turns at Legco advising lawmakers _ including those supporting the government's current proposal _ on technical issues.

``It is not a filibuster tactic. We have the duty to provide information. Any lawmaker can come forward to seek advice,'' Lai said, adding his group will keep in touch with legislators inside the chamber via e-mail and text messages.

The experts include railway development expert Ronald Taylor and urban geography academic Leung Kai-chi.

``Two to three of us may be in the room at any one time, and we can suggest follow-up questions on the railway project to lawmakers,'' Lai said.

The news came as more than 30 pro-government legislators signed a letter urging committee chairwoman Emily Lau Wai-hing to set aside 20 more hours for the debate. Lau had earlier set 10 hours _ six tomorrow and four on Saturday. The 33 signatories fear the pan-democrats may use filibuster tactics to delay a vote for a third time.

``We strongly urge you [Lau] to prevent any abuse of the procedures to prolong the meeting so the Finance Committee can vote on the issue and make a final decision,'' the legislators said.

Liberal Party chairwoman Miriam Lau Kin-yee said: ``We decided to take this step because we fear that a decision cannot be made within 10 hours. We are afraid that some lawmakers will keep throwing out questions ... Many Hongkongers are getting impatient.''


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## hkskyline

*It's not over, rail-link protesters say*
25 January 2010
South China Morning Post

The war between the government and opponents of the HK$66.9 billion high-speed railway to Guangzhou was not yet over, activists vowed yesterday.

It could be litigation, or scandals uncovered about the project or officials involved, but Chu Hoi-dick of the alliance - comprising Hong Kong Catholic Diocese members and people from the Post-80s anti-express railway group - promised it would be something new and eye-catching.

"[Halting the project] would be extremely difficult, but we don't want to give up just yet," he said. "We believe we have not yet exhausted all our means." League of Social Democrats lawmaker Albert Chan Wai-yip has threatened to file for a judicial review against the Legislative Council's decision to grant funding to the project.

The alliance plans to stage another protest on February 7.

Meanwhile, participants in the Legco protest last Saturday, which ended up trapping transport minister Eva Cheng inside the building for six hours, plan to complain about police use of violence against the protesters.

Student activist Christina Chan Hau-man said police held her by the throat and pushed her backwards that day.

Chief Executive Donald Tsang Yam-kuen condemned the protesters as irresponsible disrupters of social order two days after the clash.

But protesters said yesterday it was the police who triggered the clash. "They fired pepper spray at us without warning while we were peacefully chanting slogans," actor Banky Yeung Ping-kei said.


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## hkskyline

*Young voices unheard on most advisory bodies *
28 January 2010
South China Morning Post

Activists who besieged the Legislative Council in protest against construction of the Hong Kong-Guangzhou high-speed rail link may have had a point when they said the government did not listen to young people.

In a written reply to the legislature yesterday, Secretary for Home Affairs Tsang Tak-sing said only 25, or 6.4 per cent, of all advisory and statutory bodies had non-official members aged 30 or below.

South China Morning Post research revealed that the average age of non-official board members of six influential statutory bodies approaches 60 - retirement age.

Appointing older people created a risk that the government was not hearing younger citizens and decreased the breadth of discussion on key issues before they became the subject of legislation, officials say.

As of September 30, only 10 of 356 non-official board members of 24 major statutory bodies, or 2.8 per cent, were aged below 40.

Non-official board members are not public servants and are recruited from the public.

Only 25 advisory and statutory bodies have appointed non-official members aged 30 or below, with those such as the Dogs and Cats Classification Board, the Appeal Board Panel under the Rabies Ordinance and the Commission on Youth having the highest percentage of members from the "post-80s generation".

No chairman of an advisory or statutory body is aged below 30.

The average age of non-official Airport Authority and Public Service Commission board members when they were appointed in 2008 - 58.3 years - tops the list among 24 major statutory bodies, according to Home Affairs Bureau statistics.

Five of the nine Airport Authority board non-official members are over 60.

The Mandatory Provident Fund Schemes Authority comes second with an average age of 58.2, followed by the Securities and Futures Commission's 58.

The average age of Commission on Youth members when they were appointed was 46.

In a July 2004 report, the Home Affairs Bureau said young people, who could provide a useful balance to the interests and views of older decision-makers, were under-represented on statutory and advisory bodies. The bureau proposed that more under-40s should be appointed to provide alternative views. But no target was set.

An official who preferred to remain anonymous said an increasing number of older people were serving on major statutory bodies because senior officials were inclined to recommend people with whom they were familiar, who enjoyed a good reputation in their own professions and who had already been appointed to major statutory bodies.

"As members of major advisory and statutory bodies are ageing, the government is running the risk of being out of touch with the pulse of the general public," the official said.

Dr Ray Yep Kin-man, associate professor with City University's department of public and social administration, said the membership of most advisory bodies was heavily tilted towards entrepreneurs and senior executives.

He said senior officials preferred to build a "comfort zone" on advisory and statutory bodies by appointing like-minded individuals.

But that practice undermined the quality of discussion on potential legislative issues during the pre-legislation period.


----------



## hkskyline

*Survey to map state of buildings before work begins on tunnel *
30 January 2010
South China Morning Post

A survey to record the condition of old buildings in Tai Kok Tsui that might be affected by construction of a tunnel for the high-speed railway is to be carried out next month. A report will be made available to residents and if their flats are damaged during construction, repairs will be begun within seven days.

Yau Tsim Mong district councillors were briefed on the measures yesterday, with officials keen to calm fears of residents on the tunnel route. Residents have led strong opposition to the railway project, fearing their blocks could be damaged because the railway runs under their homes - many of them more than 40 years old.

Undersecretary for Transport and Housing Yau Shing-mu said after yesterday's meeting that the MTR Corporation was experienced in building railway tunnels and the authorities were satisfied there should be no building safety issue.

To address residents' concerns, Yau said a survey to determine the conditions of the buildings that might be affected by the rail project would be conducted after the Lunar New Year holidays. "A report will be made available to residents so there will be proof of the building conditions in case there are claims of damage in the future," Yau said.

Reports of damage during construction would be responded to within a day and repair work would start within a week, Yau said.

But some councillors remained unconvinced. Henry Chan Man-yu said: "Residents are still very scared. Mr Yau boasted that the Buildings Department had checked the buildings and found that they were safe. But minutes after we were told of this, the news of the building collapse in Hung Hom broke. And when we told Mr Yau of the news, he just did not know what to say."

Yau declined to comment on the Hung Hom case.

"In the Tai Kok Tsui case, a structural survey has been done and it has been satisfied that building a tunnel under the buildings should be safe and should not cause problems to the structure of the buildings," he said.

The legislature this month approved HK$66.9 billion in funding for the controversial high-speed rail project, which is to link the city to the national express rail network.

Opponents said the authorities were forcing through the project without enough public scrutiny.


----------



## hkskyline

*Cops grilled over rail siege rumpus *
3 February 2010
The Standard

Security chiefs stood their ground in the face of intense questioning from lawmakers over their use of force during an anti-Express Rail Link protest outside the Legislative Council last month.

At a meeting of the Legislative Council security panel yesterday, the Security Bureau and police defended law enforcers' actions on the night of January 16, when the Finance Committee passed the almost HK$67 billion funding for the controversial rail project.

Lawmaker Cyd Ho Sau-lan raised concern over the use of pepper spray, questioning why some officers still sprayed demonstrators when they had already dispersed.

Assistant Commissioner of Police Austin Kerrigan admitted 13 officers had used pepper spray on three different occasions during the scuffles but did not answer directly when asked whether police had given ample warning.

``Warnings are required to be given where practicable. Obviously, if someone is jumping on you and assaulting you, there is no time to give a warning. You just have to react,'' he said.

Kerrigan said seven police officers had sustained injuries. One suffered a fractured finger. He was taken to hospital and given 10 days' sick leave.

Another officer was hit in the eye by a bottle and required hospital care, he added.

``Freedom of assembly, association is not a license to assault police. That's where we draw the line. We will not tolerate that,'' he said.

Legislator Cheung Man-kwong blamed the police for instigating chaos by putting up barricades near the Bank of China headquarters, which blocked the way of the protesters as they marched around Legco.

He said the move angered the demonstrators, leading to the scuffles.

But Undersecretary for Security Lai Tung-kwok said police superintendents decided the tactics and deployment depending on the situations.

Lawmaker Emily Lau Wai-hing asked if the police were capable of protecting legislators' right to get in and out of the Legco building in the case of similar protests in future.

Lai said police had advised lawmakers not to leave when protesters besieged the premises as it was very chaotic outside.

Lai also expressed doubts on the claim of a netizen that the plastic bottle that hit legislator Philip Wong Yu-hong in the head was hurled by a plain-clothes police officer.


----------



## snapdragon

50,000 posts OMG
THAT IS CRAZYDUDE

anyway on a lighter note . I guess if you are reporting each move on the HK political opera . I guess you will end up having lot of posts. :banana:


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## hkskyline

snapdragon said:


> 50,000 posts OMG
> THAT IS CRAZYDUDE
> 
> anyway on a lighter note . I guess if you are reporting each move on the HK political opera . I guess you will end up having lot of posts. :banana:


Well .. I've been around for many years.  

There's actually a lot more in the Chinese press which I'm not posting, and that includes analyses and editorials. I mainly bring the key highlights in the English press.


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## gakei

Planning Application of the Site of the Guangzhou - Shenzhen - Hong Kong Expess Rail Link West Kowloon Terminus Bounded by Lin Cheung Road, Jordan Road, Road D1 and Austin Road West

http://www.info.gov.hk/tpb/tc/plan_application/Attachment/20100209/s16_A_K20_113_0_gist.pdf


----------



## hkskyline

*MTR urged to ease residents' fears over impact of rail link *
9 February 2010
South China Morning Post

The MTR Corporation has been urged to adopt a risk strategy normally used only for high-risk infrastructure such as chemical plants and oil refineries to evaluate the impact on old residential blocks of construction of the express rail link to Guangzhou.

The HK$66.9 billion rail project, which will pass under 19 buildings in Tai Kok Tsui, has worried residents. They fear the blocks, built 40 years ago, may not withstand the construction work.

Professional Commons, a lobby group opposed to the link's alignment, said the MTR should do a qualitative risk assessment to predict the likelihood of work on the link causing a disaster and assess the likely number of deaths resulting from such an accident.

"There are many unforeseeable risks in a works project despite all the surveying work," the group's chairman, Albert Lai Kwong-tak, said. Carrying out such an assessment could ease residents' fears.

Qualitative risk assessments are usually conducted on projects near infrastructure that may pose a safety hazard to a neighbourhood, such as a chemical plant.

Some old buildings in Tai Kok Tsui are built on soil and have short concrete footings rather than pilings anchored in rock. However, the MTR said that, based on data that it collected from a comprehensive investigation, the railway tunnel would not affect the structural safety of the buildings' foundations.

"A typhoon actually has a greater loading on buildings than our tunnel boring machine, which works 20 metres below ground," an MTR officer in charge of the project said.

Land outside the Cultural Centre in Tsim Sha Tsui subsided by about a metre when the MTR's Kowloon Southern Link was being built two years ago.

Dr Greg Wong Chak-yan, a veteran civil engineer who has worked for the MTR, said ground settlement could cause buildings to subside. However, the impact of the railway work should not be that great. "The tunnel boring machines are so sophisticated these days it is impossible to induce large-scale ground settlement, and it takes a fairly big hole to cause even a little subsidence to a building," he said.

The MTR is assessing how the work will affect 3,500 flats in the area and will provide each household with a copy of the survey results.


----------



## hkskyline

*Railway face-off turns into numbers game *
1 February 2010
The Standard

When it comes to figures, opponents of the express rail link to Guangzhou claim the transport chief simply can't add up.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Eva Cheng Yu-wah said yesterday 140 of the up to 160 households in Choi Yuen Tsuen have agreed to make way for the line.

However, a member of the concern group opposing the railway said at least 70 families are refusing to move and will announce an escalation of their campaign later this week.

About 120 households signed up for compensation before the link's HK$67 billion funding was approved by the Legislative Council's Finance Committee in January.

The project entails the construction of sidings and an emergency rescue station in Shek Kong, which will require the removal of about 150 households in Choi Yuen Tsuen and 10 other families nearby.

Cheng said some residents who signed up earlier have already received replies from the government. Some households will receive up to HK$600,000 in compensation.

She also urged those who have not signed up to act soon with applications for compensation having been extended for one month to the end of February.

However, Choi Yuen Tsuen Concern Group chairwoman Ko Chun-heung questioned the official figure, saying about 70 families have refused to budge.

``We were born and grew up here. We saved every penny to build our homes. We will not leave,'' Ko said.

Under the government's HK$86 million compensation package, qualified households who have been resident in the areas designated for demolition since the 1980s will be given a cash allowance of HK$600,000 each or HK$500,000 plus the right to buy Home Ownership Scheme flats in the New Territories. Those who want to buy HOS flats will be exempted from a means test.

All of the affected households will also get a one-off allowance of between HK$3,000 and HK$10,000 each for relocation, the government said.


----------



## hkskyline

*Express rail link activists branch out to make their own luck *
16 February 2010
South China Morning Post

Activists from a group opposed to the HK$66.9 billion Hong Kong-Guangzhou express rail link drew three fortune sticks on behalf of the city to urge people to fight for their own destiny.

Lee Yu-mung drew a stick numbered 74, classified as "unlucky", for families such as those in Tsoi Yuen Tsuen, where homes will be pulled down to make way for the link.

Rather than relying on fortune tellers at the Che Kung Temple in Sha Tin, the twenty-something activists from the XRL Alliance used the internet and came up with their own interpretations, as an analogy for not relying on the government to make decisions for them.

Lee said the number 74 meant luck had yet to reach the city.

Fung shui consultant Li Yuen-chin said the unlucky stick was merely a warning. She said grass-roots families needed to abandon some dreams - because they were unattainable - and focus on other goals.

When interpreted specifically for Tsoi Yuen Tsuen, Li said the drawing of the stick meant the villagers had different worries but hoped that they could negotiate a way out.

A spokesman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said two households affected by the rail project had collected an ex-gratia cash allowance last week.

Of the 140 households registered for rehousing packages, the government has approved nearly 30 applications. The registration deadline has been extended to February 28.

Au Wah-yan drew a stick numbered 89 classified as "average" and covering the finances of grass-roots workers. "If the government can be conscientious and do things fairly, it can redistribute wealth," she said.

Cheng Ka-kui drew the third fortune stick for lost property - referring to Hong Kong's lost ideals. The number 24 stick is classified as "average", and the group said it pointed to greed as the cause of many problems.


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## hkskyline

*THB approves rehousing assistance applications from XRL affected villagers *
Monday, February 15, 2010
Government Press Release

Two households affected by land resumption and clearance under the project of the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) collected an ex-gratia cash allowance last week, a spokesman for the Transport and Housing Bureau (THB) said today (February 15).

The rehousing packages exclusively applicable to villagers affected by land resumption and clearance under the XRL project was approved by the Executive Council in October last year. Funding approval was endorsed by the Legislative Council in January. Among the 140 registered households, the government has approved nearly 30 applications and has informed the villagers of the results progressively.

"Villagers, who have been offered the ex-gratia cash allowances, can contact the Rail Development Section of the Lands Department for collection of the allowance," the THB spokesman said.

"The remaining cases will be handled soonest possible. The relevant government departments will continue to take initiatives in visiting the villagers to understand their needs and render assistance to them where appropriate. We also explained the details of the rehousing packages through distribution of the newsletters (see Annex) to the Choi Yuen Tsuen villagers last week."

The package proposed for the Choi Yuen Tsuen villagers affected by the XRL project goes beyond the present compensation and rehousing arrangements under the existing policy and offers various options to meet their different needs.

According to the rehousing package, subject to meeting prescribed eligibility criteria, households with special rehousing needs will be offered an ex-gratia cash allowance of $600,000, or an allowance of $500,000 and an opportunity to purchase a flat in the New Territories under the Home Ownership Scheme without being subject to the Comprehensive Means Test.

For farmers who want to continue the agricultural activities, they can buy or rent land to continue with farming activities and apply to the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conversation Department and the Lands Department for short-term waiver on such land to build a temporary structure for residential purpose.

All affected households will be eligible for a domestic removal allowance, ranging from $3,000 to $10,000.

The registration deadline has been extended to February 28 to facilitate villagers. The spokesman urged the affected villagers to register with the government as earliest as possible so that relevant departments can proceed with the vetting procedures as soon as possible.

http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201002/15/P201002120263.htm


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## kelly

foxmulder said:


> In 40 years, they will be one country anyway


But why our tax should go to HK, you now HK doesn't pay tax to the central government. it make no sense to let poor part of country to support the rich party financially.


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## GreenPeas

^ I like that thinking


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## snapdragon

kelly said:


> But why our tax should go to HK, you now HK doesn't pay tax to the central government. it make no sense to let poor part of country to support the rich party financially.


Also the whole attitude of Hkers as if they are carrying this backward nation forward .When you talk to them is just disgusting . 

The other day on facebook . I came across one HKer on facebook abusing china everywhere calling for democracy and wishing HK would turn into pre 1997 era . Which made no sense as in reality pre 1997 HK had no form of democracy whatsoever. So it was a higly self contradictory message she was spewing all over the place . Then finally she said . Well i dont like to be called a communist so that is why i am against China . I am like wow firstly communism is an European invention . created developed propounded propagated from Europe. It has nothing to do with the Chinese philosophical association with any form of communism . Then she again went silent and she repeated the whole thing over and over . Basically in days prior to 1997 . The honk kongers were daily fed with god save the queen between every news program . Imagine that being played in todays hong kong with chinese national anthem . 


I hate it when others think i am communist. I was really off my chair laughing.Luckily for hong kong the businesss class and the educated class (not the left leaning professors do realize that growth in china is far from being a zero sum game .


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## EricIsHim

snapdragon said:


> Basically in days prior to 1997 . The honk kongers were daily fed with god save the queen between every news program . Imagine that being played in todays hong kong with chinese national anthem .


No comments on what you have said, but just to correct the two things you talked above (quoted) actually is happening the other around. The British didn't play the national anthem at prime time betweens news, but the Chinese is doing that everyday now.


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## UD2

sometimes I think that the people in HongKong are simply a bunch of whiners who doesn't know how good they're having it.

Us here in Toronto we'd be dancing in the streets if somebody offered us a high speed railway to our downtown.


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## superchan7

When a society matures, dissent and other interest parties become more powerful. How the govt. handles dissent is a different story.

Wishing HK would return to colonial rule is naive at best. As a SAR, it now has the opportunity (and responsibility) to grow up and set a good example for the rest of China and many other countries. As HKers we ought to be proud of our past and present, and hardworking for our future.


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## hkskyline

*Villagers can't delay move any longer, official says*
25 November 2010
South China Morning Post

Eviction of villagers blocking a work site for the new cross-border express rail line had been done in a humane, effective and transparent way, the secretary for transport and housing said yesterday - sparking a sceptical response from a legislator who questioned her on the removals.

Eva Cheng said the clearance of Choi Yuen Tsuen was being done in phases to accommodate the needs of the villagers, some of whom are vowing to fight for their homes with their lives.

Answering a question from lawmaker Leung Kwok-hung, Cheng said the resumption of the village land could not be delayed any longer.

"The construction involves changing the river channel, and hence has to begin during the dry season," she told lawmakers. "We have been flexible in evacuating the houses - claiming the land of the settled houses first to allow more time for the reluctant homeowners to consider the compensation package offered by the government."

Leung was given approval under a section of the Legco rules of procedure, which allows lawmakers to ask a question without prior notice if it is considered to have urgency and is of public importance. Given the government's pledge to conduct the eviction humanely, Leung asked how this would be done in the face of villagers' pledge to fight to the end.

He also wanted to know what plans the government had to meet the hold-outs and whether the deadline for clearance could be extended for six months. Having heard Cheng's response, he asked: "Will you have face-to-face confrontations with the villagers? Is that what you call humane treatment?"

Cheng did not make any promise to meet the villagers.

About 50 households who want to transfer their farms to a site at Pat Heung have been urging a delay of at least six months while they settle land-purchase issues. Another 30 families are staying because they are not satisfied with the compensation offered for their crops.

Cheng added: "They can appeal for more compensation after leaving the village."


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## hkskyline

*Land resumption at Choi Yuen Tsuen*
24 November 2010
Government Press Release

Following is a question by the Hon Leung Kwok-hung and a reply by the Secretary for Transport and Housing, Ms Eva Cheng, in the Legislative Council today (November 24):

Question:

On November 19 this year, the Government once again sent officials to carry out land resumption at Choi Yuen Tsuen, causing a certain degree of nuisance; the operation was also obstructed by petitioners and could not be carried out. On the same day, the Government immediately issued a press release saying that it had decided to suspend that day's operation so as to prevent accidents which might cause injuries to the protesters and site workers, and it would extend the grace period to the end of November. The villagers have indicated that if the Government carries out land resumption by force, they will "defend their village with their lives" and fight till the end. The Government has also stated repeatedly that the clearance of Choi Yuen Tsuen would be "handled in a humane manner". In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) given that the residents of Choi Yuen Tsuen have vowed to "defend their village with their lives" and fight against land resumption by the Government till the end, what measures the Government will put in place to avoid confrontation with the residents so as to prevent accidents and avoid people from being injured when it resumes land resumption after the expiry of the grace period; of the specific meaning of "handled in a humane manner", given that the Government has undertaken that the clearance of Choi Yuen Tsuen would be "handled in a humane manner";

(b) given that the Government has stated that land resumption and clearance operation at the village will be carried out in phases, and such work is expected to continue over a period of time, how the Government will meet with the residents as soon as possible to discuss the timetable of the clearance operation, so as to alleviate their concerns and worries, and of the timetable for the Government's meeting with the residents as well as details of the clearance operation; and

(c) given that at present, the Government has not finished calculating the amount of crop ex-gratia allowances for the residents of the village and the specific arrangements for relocation, whether it can postpone land resumption by six months to give the residents sufficient time for preparation; if not, of the reasons for that?

Reply:

President,

Throughout the land resumption exercise at Choi Yuen Tsuen (CYT) from the formulation of the special ex-gratia rehousing package, vetting of applications for various allowances and agricultural resite to the current site clearance and land resumption, we have been handling the issue in a humane manner. We have done our best in helping the villagers and catering for their needs, so that the construction of the Hong Kong Section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) will proceed and the CYT villagers will have resources and opportunities to choose rehousing options that meet their individual needs and wishes. 

My reply to the three parts of the question is as follows:

(a) The Government has stated repeatedly that it will handle the clearance of CYT in a humane manner, that is, phased land resumption. The Administration will firstly take over structures and land for various purposes vacated or handed over voluntarily by the villagers, and commence site formation and preparation for other works. This is a win-win solution as we can buy time to reduce the impact on the progress of the works of the XRL project, while villagers who are not yet prepared may have more time to carry out their moving plans.

The villagers have started to move out and hand over their land and structures voluntarily since mid-October when land resumption commenced. On November 4, our colleagues visited all households, to find out the progress of their moving plans. For villagers who had moved out, we would take over the structures immediately. If the villagers indicated at that time that they needed more time for preparation, we offered a grace period and assistance, taking into account their situation and needs. This experience has demonstrated that such a pragmatic and humane approach can cater for the moving plans of individual villagers as far as possible and avoid unnecessary conflicts.

We have kept in view the moving plans and progress of different villagers since November 4. For example, for villagers who opt for the collective agricultural resite plan, we learnt that the negotiation over the land transaction had reached its final stage. Many villagers have carried out their moving plans and were ready to hand over their land and structures. However, when our colleagues were about to take possession of such land and structures and to understand the progress of the moving plans of other villagers on November 19, they met resistance from protesters. 

In fact, among the 230 odd registered households with a total population of over 400, only some 50 households opt for the collective agricultural resite plan, while the remaining 100 or so households have other plans. Handling the land resumption in a humane manner means allowing as far as possible the villagers to move out from CYT in batches and phases according to their needs without affecting the progress of the works of the XRL project. It does not involve any acts of "intimidating and forcing the villagers to leave".

Actually, apart from the current land resumption exercise, we have adopted a humane approach in processing compensation and rehousing cases. Where discretion was permitted under the law and policies, we appropriately exercised such discretion in a humane and sympathetic manner to cater for the needs and circumstances of the villagers as far as possible. Of course, where discretion was not so permitted, the Government has to, naturally, abide by the regulations.

For example, we approved more than 140 applications for special ex-gratia rehousing allowances, of which about 60 were from fully eligible villagers. In addition, I exercised my discretion in approving over 80 applications from villagers who were not fully eligible. As a result, many villagers who lived in converted pigsties or chicken sheds also benefitted. Likewise, we were sympathetic to the needs of the affected villagers and handled these applications in a humane manner as far as possible, such as taking a compassionate approach in handling cases involving the elderly, singleton elders, the chronic illness, single-parent families and those suffering from domestic calamity.

We have adopted the same compassionate approach in processing applications for public rental housing (PRH) from families with special needs. For example, they have been allocated with PRH flats in urban areas to facilitate mutual care with their relatives.

In dealing with applications for agricultural resite, we have tried to help villagers recover evidence through various channels to prove their eligibility. Some villagers stated that they had lost their farming records due to flooding and other reasons. The Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department (AFCD) and the Environmental Protection Department rendered assistance by checking files of the past decade or so and visiting vegetable stations and the Kadoorie Farm in search of relevant records. Some villages stated that they did not keep any record of crop sale. The AFCD inspected the sale outlets with them to collect relevant evidence. 

Therefore, it can be seen that every aspect of the entire land resumption exercise at CYT reflects our humane way of handling the clearance exercise. This owes much to the concerted and dedicated efforts of the frontline staff of the relevant departments and organisations including the Lands Department, the AFCD, the Housing Department and the Mass Transit Railway Corporation Limited. They processed applications for compensation and rehousing in a fair, square and patient manner, taking into account the needs of villagers.

(b) We have communicated and liaised with every household to better understand their specific needs and the progress of their moving plans, and to provide assistance as far as possible. Since more than a hundred households in CYT do not opt for the collective agricultural resite plan, we consider that this is the best way to understand and meet the needs of individual households, and to protect the privacy of individual villagers.

As for the 50 odd households who opt for the collective agricultural resite plan, we have met with them on many occasions and provided technical support. We, together with Heung Yee Kuk, discussed and co-ordinated with other villagers on issues related to land and access road rights. We have repeatedly indicated to their representatives that if they complete the land transaction shortly, we will explore feasible arrangements that will facilitate their house building plans in the coming months as far as possible while at the same time will not affect the progress of the XRL project.

(c) A total of $250 million including land compensation ($160 million) and various types of ex-gratia cash allowances ($72 million) has been offered to the CYT villagers. Most villagers have collected the payments.

The above compensation was granted to the villagers and farmers of CYT while excluding landowners who did not live in CYT. With a registered population of some 400 villagers, on average over $500,000 has been granted to each CYT villager. Some larger families even received total compensation more than ten million dollars. In addition, more than 30 households have purchased Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats with the comprehensive means test waived.

There are still some villagers who are dissatisfied with the amount of crop ex-gratia allowances. In fact, about $13 million of crop ex-gratia allowances have been approved, involving some 160 applicants with more than $80,000 granted for each case on average. Most cases involved small-scale planting in front of the villagers' structures for self-use. The crops grown were mainly for private consumption. More than 30 farmers, who were still actively engaged in agricultural activities, were offered hundreds of thousand dollars of crops allowances each, with the highest offer amounting to over $1 million. 
Apart from the allowances, the farmers may sell their harvested crops before land resumption so as to earn additional income.

The crop allowance rates are applicable to all land resumption exercises in the territory. At the request of the villagers, the AFCD has reviewed all the crop allowance rates and applications of all the farmers. The AFCD is of the view that apart from edible aloe vera and organic crops, the allowance rates for all the crops have already reflected the market values and hence no adjustments will be made. The allowance rates for edible aloe vera and organic crops have been adjusted. The new rates will be applicable to all farmers growing these two types of crops. 

As such, the mechanism of crop ex-gratia allowance as a whole has provided the farmers with reasonable compensation. We believe that the AFCD has handled the crop allowances in a fair and reasonable manner. They reviewed the crop allowances and adjusted the allowance rates for certain crops, taking into consideration the villagers' views. If individual farmers can prove that the losses they suffer exceed the crop ex-gratia allowances, they may claim further compensation in accordance with the law.

Even if a farmer intends to claim further compensation, it is not necessary to retain the crops on the land. It is because the crop ex-gratia allowance is calculated on the basis of the species, quantity and quality of the crops on the date of assessment, not land resumption or clearance. The AFCD have kept a complete record of the crops on the date of assessment for all the applications. It can serve as the basis of claims for further compensation in future. Therefore, farmers who are dissatisfied with the amount of ex-gratia compensation may move out before claiming further compensation. They should not use this as an excuse to defer moving out.

The construction works at CYT is a key part of the XRL project and involves the diversion of the rivercourse. The schedule is very tight as some of the works has to be completed in the dry season. Therefore, we have to carry out the clearance operation and land resumption on time. The land resumption cannot be delayed.

To conclude, we have devoted much effort to the land resumption exercise at CYT. We hope to achieve a win-win situation for the XRL project and the rehousing arrangements for the affected villagers. On land compensation, we have upgraded the compensation rate from zone C to zone A so as to provide villagers with additional resources to find new homes. We have developed the special ex-gratia rehousing package which provides cash allowance to villagers who have lived in temporary structures on government or agricultural land for a long time. Eligible villagers are allowed to purchase an HOS flat without being subject to the comprehensive means test. This provides them with more rehousing options. We considered agricultural resite applications on the basis of family farms. This allows more members of a farming household to live together and share the farming work. We hope that the public and villagers will appreciate our good will and efforts. That said, as a responsible government, we must ensure that the XRL project will be completed on time and within budget, so that it will fulfill its strategic role.


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## hkskyline

*Villagers angry work on railway has started *
29 December 2010
SCMP

Work on the high-speed railway has already begun at Tsoi Yuen Tsuen but about 70 families remain in their homes - and are complaining about the noise.

MTR Corp contractors and lands and highways officials yesterday visited the Yuen Long village, where 20 to 30 empty houses have been fenced off and are to be demolished first.

An activist helping residents with relocation from the doomed village, Yip Bo-lam, said officials were being inconsiderate.

"There are still 70 families living here," she said. "Some have decided to move to another village to continue farming but are stuck in negotiation with landlords, and others are still finalising compensation deals with the government. Demolition work will surely generate dust, rubble and noise. This is like another way of kicking villagers out."

Villager Ko Chun-heung said one house was knocked down two days ago and neighbours feared that asbestos in it could harm their health.

The law requires demolition of asbestos buildings to be conducted by qualified contractors and to follow standard protection measures.

The villagers are being moved to make way for the HK$66.9 billion high-speed railway to Guangzhou.

Forty-seven of the remaining families have chosen to continue their way of life under a farming reinstatement plan on another site in Pat Heung. They blame the government for not helping them in negotiations with landlords in Pat Heung. Another 30 families who have chosen to stop farming are still negotiating compensation for giving up their crops.

A Transport and Housing Bureau spokeswoman said the MTR Corp had commissioned qualified contractors for the demolition of structures with asbestos. The relevant permits had been granted by the Environmental Protection Department and the demolition would be conducted in accordance with stringent safety standards, she said.

The government started land resumption at the village in October and was now beginning preparatory work, she said. It would keep in contact with villagers and follow up the relocation progress.

The railway work at Tsoi Yuen Tsuen, which involved complex alteration of a river channel, had to be completed during the dry season, she said.


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## hkskyline

*Guangzhou-Shenzhen Express Rail Section to Start Operation*

BEIJING, January 5, SinoCast -- China is set to complete construction of the Shenzhen-Guangzhou section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link at the end of this year at the latest, said government officials yesterday.

The rail link project will not support a non-stop access to Hong Kong until four years later because of a later construction of the Hong Kong section, said Liu Zhijun, director for the Ministry of Railways (MOR).

The country is stepping up its efforts to make the Guangzhou-Shenzhen section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link come into operation, according to Mr. Liu, adding that the high-speed railway projects from Beijing to Shijiazhuang and that from Shijiazhuang to Wuhan will come into service within this year.

Notably, China plans to invest as much as CNY 700 billion in railway infrastructure construction projects in the entire 2011, said Mr. Liu.


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## hkskyline

*Over 80% of land in Choi Yuen Tsuen recovered*
Tuesday, January 11, 2011
Government Press Release

A spokesman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said the Government had taken over more than 80% of land in Choi Yuen Tsuen since its land resumption work started in mid-October last year and had begun preparatory works for the Hong Kong Section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) on the resumed land.

At present, most of the villagers and business undertakings have moved out from Choi Yuen Tsuen and continued their living in the new homes. Among the remaining some 70 households, most of them opt for the collective agricultural resite plan.

"Recently, some villagers, who plan to take part in the collective agricultural resite, are worried that while the road access issue relating to their newly-bought farmland has yet to be resolved, the due date of clearance is approaching. We appreciate their worries," the spokesman said.

"The Government has stated repeatedly that it will implement land resumption in phases by firstly taking over vacated land, agricultural sites, and structures and sites from villagers and business undertakings who have moved out. At this stage, provided that the construction progress of XRL would not be adversely affected, we shall continue the current work procedures and continue carrying out the preparatory works, such as land formation, demolishing resumed structures, erecting hoarding, on the resumed land. Through this, we aim to extending the due date of clearance for these villagers participating in collective agricultural resite as far as possible to enable them to have more time to handle the road access as well as other issues."

The spokesman understood that villagers who opted for collective agricultural resite had purchased a farmland without a vehicular access at a relatively low price and had to negotiate with the landowners of adjacent lands over the road access issue. It was understood that both parties had yet to reach an agreement and Heung Yee Kuk would continue to coordinate. As the negotiation involved their respective financial interests, the Government could not force any party to accept the terms imposed by the other one.

On rumours that some villagers refused to hand over their farmlands to the Administration on the ground that the compensation issue had yet to be settled, the spokesman stressed that the land compensation issue had been resolved earlier. A total of $160 million of land compensation was granted to the Choi Yuen Tsuen villagers who owned land. The ownership right of all land in Choi Yuen Tsuen now rested with the Government in accordance with the law. The crop ex-gratia allowances were extra sum of money which were unrelated to land right. The Agricultural and Fisheries Conservation Department (AFCD) had already assessed all applications of crop ex-gratia allowances and kept a complete record of the crops on the date of assessment for all the cases. It could serve as the basis of claims for further compensation in future, if necessary. In fact, all farmers (including those who had been engaging in agricultural activities on the Government land), apart from being able to collect crop ex-gratia allowances, were also given sufficient time in last year to harvest their crops for sale before handing over their farmlands. About $13 million of crops ex-gratia allowances had been approved to Choi Yuen Tsuen villagers. Therefore, even if farmers were dissatisfied with the amount of crop ex-gratia compensation, they should hand over their land to the Administration before making further appeals based on the record of crops on the date of assessment taken by AFCD last year.

"The construction works at Choi Yuen Tsuen is a key part of the XRL project and involves the diversion of the rivercourse. The schedule is very tight as some of the works has to be completed in the dry season. Therefore, we have to carry out the clearance operation and land resumption on time. The land resumption cannot be delayed," the spokesman said.


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## hkskyline

*Activists pushed out in village rail-link scuffle*
19 January 2011
The Standard

About a dozen villagers and activists were carried away by police from Choi Yuen Tsuen yesterday as government workers took over land for the construction of a new railway line.

A concern group mobilized around 20 activists who have been fighting for the preservation of the village.

However, New Territories Heung Yee Kuk chairman Lau Wong-fat, who has been coordinating their resettlement, said the villagers have been spoiled by too much public sympathy.

Lau also accused them of telling lies about the amount they were asked to pay for an access road to a village they have bought.

Protesters condemned the action by the Lands Department to clear and resume the site without prior notice.

They waved banners at the farms of the villagers and an activist climbed atop a bulldozer used by the government to demolish crops.

About 30 police officers were sent in to carry out about a dozen villagers and activists before officials entered the village to continue the land resumption.

``What we are asking for is resettlement after compensation issues have been resolved. It's not a harsh request,'' Choi Yuen Tsuen Concern Group chairwoman Ko Chun-heung said.

A spokesman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said the agricultural land taken yesterday is crucial for preparatory works for the Guangzhou- Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link.

He stressed the land compensation issue had been resolved earlier.

``A total of HK$160 million in compensation was paid to those villagers who owned the land.

``They have also been granted about HK$13 million of crops ex-gratia allowances by the Agricultural and Fisheries Conservation Department.''

Most of the villagers and business undertakings have moved out of the village as more than 80 percent of the land has been taken over by the government since mid-October last year.

But villagers said many of the remaining 70 households, who opted for the collective agricultural resite plan, have not yet received their crops ex-gratia allowances.

Ko said they refused to resettle on nearby farmland because owners of adjacent land required them to pay HK$5 million for vehicular access on a private road.

However, Lau said the amount was exaggerated by the villagers.


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## Luli Pop

those villagers are rich now, what else do they want now?


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## EricIsHim

Luli Pop said:


> those villagers are rich now, what else do they want now?


they claim they want their home and farm, not money.


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## Luli Pop

whatever!

20 people can't be an impediment for conecting Hong Kong with 1.300.000.000 persons in continental China, it's egoism and antipatriotism even in the most developed democracy.

it's ridiculous.


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## dumbfword

Yeah. Let's ignore people's land rights for rail development and call them unpatriotic for not wanting to lose land they have been working longer then you have been alive.


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## hkskyline

Don't think there is much room for compromise as the villagers don't want money - they want their village and possibly rebuilding it somewhere else. Unless the government can commit to a rebuild, I doubt the stalemate can be resolved.


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## UD2

hkskyline said:


> Don't think there is much room for compromise as the villagers don't want money - they want their village and possibly rebuilding it somewhere else. Unless the government can commit to a rebuild, I doubt the stalemate can be resolved.


not that they don't want money. they just think they can get more money. 

it's what i think anyways.


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## EricIsHim

hkskyline said:


> Don't think there is much room for compromise as the villagers don't want money - they want their village and possibly rebuilding it somewhere else. Unless the government can commit to a rebuild, I doubt the stalemate can be resolved.


the government has agreed to rebuild their village somewhere else so the villagers can continue their village way of life.
but the protesters are arguing the government hasn't built the new village for them to relocate, and therefore the government can't take over their home.


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## cbz

dumbfword said:


> Yeah. Let's ignore people's land rights for rail development and call them unpatriotic for not wanting to lose land they have been working longer then you have been alive.


You need to know the fact that it is not those people's land, it is government's land. More precisely, it's central government's land, not even local government's land



> 中华人民共和国香港特别行政区基本法
> THE BASIC LAW OF THE HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA
> 
> ...................................
> 
> 第七条 香港特别行政区境内的土地和自然资源属于国家所有，由香港特别行政区政府负责管理、使用、开发、出租或批给个人、法人或团体使用或开发，其收入全归香港特别行政区政府支配。
> Article 7* The land and natural resources within the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be State property*. The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be responsible for their management, use and development and for their lease or grant to individuals, legal persons or organizations for use or development. The revenues derived therefrom shall be exclusively at the disposal of the government of the Region.


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## Silly_Walks

cbz said:


> You need to know the fact that it is not those people's land, it is government's land. More precisely, it's central government's land, not even local government's land


Well, maybe those villagers have been farming there much longer than the central government has existed. It's like your kid telling you to piss off out of your own house :nuts:


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## Luli Pop

UD2 said:


> not that they don't want money. they just think they can get more money.
> 
> it's what i think anyways.


exactly!

it's the same worldwide everytime there's an expropiation

pure oportunism

the difference in this case is antiChina media overrated villagers position and there's an Avatar overdose in people. I don't see western media supporting this kind of people in our own countries.


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## cbz

Luli Pop said:


> exactly!
> 
> it's the same worldwide everytime there's an expropiation
> 
> pure oportunism
> 
> the difference in this case is antiChina media overrated villagers position and there's an Avatar overdose in people. I don't see western media supporting this kind of people in our own countries.


Sounds more ridiculous, it is not expropriation or eminent domain or compulsory purchase.

It is more like a house owner wants to terminate the lease for reconstruction and tenant doesn't want to move out even with another house plus compensation.


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## Silly_Walks

Luli Pop said:


> exactly!
> I don't see western media supporting this kind of people in our own countries.


Obviously you have no idea what would happen if they tried to move a whole village in Holland just for a rail line :lol:


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## foxmulder

Well, I dont know the details but as long as a reasonable compensation is given I dont see any problem. A reasonable compensation will smt like 20% more than the market value for me  I dont know how many people are involved but in any case couple of people should not able to stop smt like this big as long as they are compensated.


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## dumbfword

Silly_Walks said:


> Obviously you have no idea what would happen if they tried to move a whole village in Holland just for a rail line :lol:


or any Western country for that matter.


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## hkskyline

_I'd imagine the residents are more concerned that their homes are being razed than the construction workers not being able to work. _

*Show respect, rail line protesters urged *
24 January 2011
The Standard




























A union has urged protesters to show respect for construction workers just trying to do their jobs in the controversial takeover of village land for Hong Kong's express rail link to the mainland.

The call came after 11 workers and security guards were said to have been hurt in a confrontation with protesters at Choi Yuen Tsuen on Thursday.

The village has to make way for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link.

Activist Chu Hoi-dick, 33, of the Choi Yuen Tsuen Concern Group complained to police about an alleged attack by an MTR Corp security guard during the protest at Choi Yuen Tsuen.

But the Hong Kong Construction Industry Employees General Union said workers are complaining about trouble slowing progress _ and affecting their earnings _ as protesters show up repeatedly at the site.

Workers and guards who sustain minor injuries need up to four days of sick leave, union chairman Chow Luen- kiu said.

Protesters tried to climb on a bulldozer to prevent it from demolishing huts and clambered over hoardings at village sites. ``The hoardings are temporary and not secured yet,'' structural engineer Dennis Lee Tsan-kui said. ``Pushing them could result in collapse and be dangerous to workers and protesters.''

Union member Yim Kong-shing _ a registered site safety officer _ demanded intervention by police and Labour Department officials as trespassing on construction sites without safety gear breaches regulations.

Casual construction worker Li Wing, 63, spoke of being told last week there would be no more work at the site after he had been there for about 10 days.

``We were told to avoid conflict with protesters,'' Li said. ``So we stopped when they rushed toward us, but the boss was unhappy we did not manage to demolish a house.''

The union, affiliated to the pro- Beijing Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions, appealed to the contractor and police to protect workers.

But concern group spokeswoman Ko Chun-heung said protesters did not violate any construction rules as they were in a public place.

``Every day we speak to the villagers, to the security guards and the workers that we are in the same boat,'' she said.

``We are from the grassroots too. It's regrettable the injuries happened.''

Police have recorded a complaint of assault lodged by the protesters but no arrests have been made.


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## hkskyline

*Mindless Choi Yuen clash*
The Standard
Monday, January 24, 2011

What happened last week at the Express Rail Link work site - where protesters clashed with workers - was absurd and unnecessary.

First, there was the incident of conservation activist Chu Hoi-dick falling to the ground in Sheung Shui's Choi Yuen Tsuen village. He ended up with stitches for injuries to his neck and waist.

The concern group released an edited video clip to back its claim that Chu was hurt after a worker pushed him down. But a full length of the clip made available later showed the fall was preceded by a struggle between the two.

Both filed police reports claiming they were attacked in the incident.

Then, a construction workers' general union revealed 11 workers were injured in the Thursday confrontation. Yesterday, the union released another video clip showing how the protesters attempted dangerously to stop a bulldozer by surrounding and climbing onto it, although the equipment was moving.

I'm sure the protesters had no intention of committing suicide, but I'm less certain whether they realized the danger of encroaching on a bulldozer that was using its long metal arm to put down a cottage house. Whatever their causes, protesters should avoid doing anything to place themselves in harm's way.

I wonder whose responsibility it would be in the event the protesters were injured by the machine.

The protesters included villagers and outside activists. Some may find it baffling because what villagers received in compensation was the most generous in recent memory - simply dwarfing similar payouts for other projects.

A woman protester admitted she got HK$10 million, but participated to support others who did not. That sounds weird since, in compensation, there are bound to be a basis for calculating the sum - no matter how generous a package is designed to be.

However, there was a greater concern in the incident. To enable work to progress smoothly, the government deployed police to maintain law and order. But we heard Chu is accusing the police of not intervening to save him from injury. Then we heard the union is complaining the police failed to step in to prevent protesters from confronting workers.

Had the police separated the two parties, injuries may have been avoided. Why didn't police act? Perhaps they didn't want to anger rights groups and be accused of cracking down on protests. Therefore, the officers exercised the maximum degree of restraint and allowed the protesters and workers to scuffle with each other.

It should never be like that in the first place. Clearly, there is a strong case for Police Commissioner Andy Tsang Wai- hung to review the non-intervention tactics, and tell his officers to put up a wall to separate the protesters and workers, so that demonstrators can continue to protest peacefully, and workers can carry on with their duty in a safe environment.

High-speed trains have been in service for some time in the mainland.

It's important for Hong Kong to catch up by ensuring the construction of the Express Rail Link gets on track without delay.


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## hkskyline

*Government had not recovered Choi Yuen Tsuen's structures by force up to now*
Monday, January 24, 2011
Government Press Release

In response to media enquiries on the construction progress of the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL), a spokesman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said today (January 24) that since mid-October 2010, the Government had launched phased land resumption in Choi Yuen Tsuen (CYT) by firstly taking possession of structures from villagers who had moved out as well as agricultural sites and vacated lands, with a view to implementing the construction works for the XRL project.

“Up till now, all recovered structures were vacated ones which were handed over voluntarily by villagers who had moved out; and all recovered land were either those which had always been Government Land or were granted compensation,” the spokesman said.

On the allegation that the Government had forced villagers to move out CYT, the spokesman stressed that the Government had not forcefully taken possession of any structure which was still being resided by the villagers over the past three months. The MTR Corporation and its contractor have been carrying out preparatory works for the rail project on the recovered land, such as building hoarding and temporary site office and other related facilities. So far, the contractor has only commenced works on the recovered land, and not on any structure which is still being occupied by the villagers. Same with today's works at CYT, the contractor was only building hoarding to protect its site office, without affecting any villagers.

The objective of phased land resumption is to minimise the impact on the construction progress of the XRL project while allowing the villagers with more time to complete their moving plans. “We are regretted that the villagers have not cooperated with us. Some villagers who are still residing in CYT, together with other parties, have repeatedly trespassed into the construction sites, posing risks to their own and other people's safety, and obstructed the contractor's works, such as hoarding erection. The construction of the rail project was obstructed,” he said.

“In the face of such irresponsible behaviour and interferences, the contractor has but to step up security to protect the workers and facilities at the work site so as to enable the workers to continue their work. These have been widely covered by the media over the past few months.”

“We call on all relevant parties to observe the law. Unauthorised people are not allowed to enter the construction site of rail projects and should not damage the facilities of the work site. Otherwise, they will not only risk their own safety, but also will be legally liable.” 

Up to now, the Government has already taken possession of about 85% of land in CYT. Among the remaining non-recovered parts, most are occupied by the structures of villagers who have opted for the collective agricultural resite plan. The Government understood that although they have purchased a piece of farmland, negotiation over the road access issue is not concluded as both parties have yet to reach an agreement on the specific terms. As the negotiation involved their respective financial interests, the Government could not intervene and could only allow as much time as possible for the villagers to continue the negotiation, provided that the construction works of the XRL will not be adversely affected. 

“We have to make it clear that the grace period cannot be extended indefinitely. We call on the villagers to grasp time to focus on their road access right and home construction issues and do not waste their energy in obstructing the rail construction works anymore,” the spokesman said.

The construction work of the XRL project was authorised by the Executive Council and its funding application was approved by the Legislative Council in early 2010. The Government had to resume 27 hectares of land lots near CYT for construction of emergency rescue station and stabling siding. To compensate some 400 CYT villagers affected by the land resumption, the Government had in total approved $250 million, including around $160 million of land compensation, $70 million of ex-gratia rehousing allowances, and $13 million of ex-gratia crops allowances, for the villagers to arrange for their new lives. The ownership right of all the land in CYT now returned to the Government in accordance with law.


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## hmmwv

Actually those villagers are being civilized, in mainland cities those land seizure battles can be as intense as a night time raid in Kabul.


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## hkskyline

*Police chief regrets handling of protest *
27 January 2011
SCMP

The police chief yesterday was regretful that officers at Tsoi Yuen Tsuen were unable to respond to a scuffle in time on Thursday.

Commissioner for Police Andy Tsang Wai-hung made the comments after police completed a review of the incident.

Activists accused officers of doing nothing when protestors scuffled with contractors who moved in to resume land in the village, which is being razed to make way for the high-speed railway to Guangzhou.

At yesterday's security panel meeting, Lawmaker Margaret Ng Ngoi-yee criticised police for their handling of the incident in which activist Chu Hoi-dick scuffled with a worker at a barrier.

Tsang admitted that the actions of police were not perfect on the day. The police review showed that no demonstration area was set up and that protestors were allowed to move freely over a large area.

"Officers were not able to see what happened, therefore they were unable to respond in time," he said.

"Police are fully aware of their responsibility to intervene whenever a crime occurs."

He said officers were under orders to maintain public order and safety.


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## Scion




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## hkskyline

*Legal team to assist villagers in road row 
Lawmaker comes to aid of Tsoi Yuen families*
27 January 2011
South China Morning Post

Barrister and lawmaker Margaret Ng Ngoi-yee has thrown her support behind the villagers of Tsoi Yuen and is putting together a team of legal experts to explore what road access rights they are entitled to at their new village site.

The 47 Tsoi Yuen families are locked in a desperate struggle between MTR bulldozers at their old village and hostile indigenous villagers banning them from using an existing road to the site of their new village.

The families cannot start building their new homes unless they pay the other villagers an "access fee" of HK$5 million.

This, the Tsoi Yuen villagers said, was the reason for their recent clash with MTR workers and police, as they fear their old homes will be demolished before the new village is built.

"We are exploring all possibilities that will give the villagers road access," said Mirana May Szeto, a supporter of the Tsoi Yuen villagers and an assistant professor of literature at the University of Hong Kong.

Szeto wouldn't say if those options included legal action. The academic also called on executive councillor and Heung Yee Kuk chairman Lau Wong-fat and his son Kenneth Lau Ip-keung to let the villagers meet the person in charge of the road.

"While there are a number of people who claim they are ultimately in charge of the road, they only speak through Lau and his son, Kenneth," Szeto said. "The demands [for fees] keep changing and the new villagers don't know which one is the final demand. We want to meet whoever is responsible face to face."

Ng said the group would explore all solutions. "The villagers are very keen to move to the new village," she said. "But they are being manoeuvred into buying a piece of land with no vehicular access. We are studying the case to see how we can help."

The villagers' current home, Tsoi Yuen village in Pat Heung, is to be demolished to make way for the HK$66.9 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link.

The 47 families signed a deal in early December to buy a 188,000sq ft site in Yuen Kong village in Shek Kong for more than HK$18 million.

So far, villagers and their supporters have only been able to clear weeds and put up fences at the site. No construction work can start the road access issue is resolved.

The access fee demanded by the villagers blocking the road jumped from HK$200,000 last year to HK$5 million, or 12,000sq ft of land plus HK$500,000, now.

Lau Wong-fat initially offered to negotiate the road fee for the villagers because the landlord, Leung Kam-ting, is a relative. But recently, Kenneth told villagers Leung was not the ultimate person in charge.

"The person in charge doesn't have his name on the Land Registry record," said Chu Hoi-dick, a supporter.

The senior Lau declined to comment on his role in brokering the deal. A person working for Lau said Kenneth also could not be reached for comment.

The kuk chairman was embroiled in a scandal last September over reports that he failed to declare a series of property transactions. It was later revealed that a company controlled by Kenneth bought eight flats in Yoho Midtown in Yuen Long with Lau's company on the day the government announced measures to cool property prices. His son sold three of the properties before the transactions were completed, making a profit of HK$800,000.

Clashes between Tsoi Yuen villagers, their supporters and security guards have become a constant scene since early this month as demolition work continues. About 50 villagers and supporters were taken away by police and security guards on Monday.

The Hong Kong Construction Industry Employees General Union also complained that more than 10 workers were injured in the clashes.


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## hkskyline

*Phase I works of Express Rail Link at Choi Yuen Tsuen to commence soon*
Tuesday, January 18, 2011
Government Press Release

A spokesman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said today (January 18) that together with the agricultural sites resumed today, the Government has already taken possession of 85% of land in Choi Yuen Tsuen (CYT). The contractor will commence the first phase of construction works of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) at CYT very shortly.

Today's exercise involved only the resumption of land and not structures. Of the land taken over today, two pieces are farmland which are situated at locations crucial to the first phase of the construction works. The larger piece of farmland has always been Government Land. The villagers, who have been engaging in agricultural activities on this piece of Government Land for years, have collected the ex-gratia rehousing allowance; purchased Home Ownership Scheme flat with the comprehensive means test waived; and are granted over $1 million crop ex-gratia allowances. As for the other smaller one, its ownership right has returned to the Government in accordance with the law since last year. The original landowner of this small private farmland has also collected land compensation and ex-gratia rehousing allowances, amounting over $10 millions,” the spokesman said.

The spokesman added that all the CYT villagers affected by the XRL project were granted reasonable compensations.

"Apart from granting land compensation and ex-gratia rehousing allowances to villagers, the Government has also approved all crop ex-gratia allowances and given the villagers sufficient time last year to harvest their crops for sale before handing over their farmland to the Administration."

If farmers were dissatisfied with the amount of the ex-gratia compensation, they could make further claims based on the record of crops taken by Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department (AFCD) last year. It was not necessary to retain the crops on the land. The AFCD had kept a complete record of the crops on the date of assessment of all the cases.

We have carried out phased land resumption in CYT since mid-October in 2010 and have so far recovered vacated land and agricultural sites and structures vacated by villagers who have moved out. The objective of phased land resumption is to take into account the needs of both the XRL project and the villagers. Provided that the construction progress of the rail project will not be adversely affected, the Government has offered the villagers with the greatest flexibility and more time to arrange for their moving plans. So far, the villagers have been given more than three-month grace period,” he stressed.

"At present, most of the villagers and business undertakings have already moved out from CYT and continued their living in the new homes. Among the remaining some 70 households, most of them opt for the collective agricultural resite plan. We will continue to implement land resumption in phases at this stage. We hope that the remaining villagers and their supporters will understand the Government's good will and complete their moving plans as soon as possible with full cooperation."

"We should understand that the construction works of XRL must be carried on and the grace period for villagers cannot be extended indefinitely. Due to the requirements of the construction works, we will erect extra hoarding on the resumed land in order to effectively protect the safety of villagers who have not yet moved out, and to minimise the impacts of the works on the environment."

The ownership right of all of the land in CYT now rested with the Government. A total of $160 million of land compensation was granted to the CYT villagers who owned land (excluding land owners who were not residing in CYT). Most of the villagers had collected their land compensations. The crop ex-gratia allowances were extra sum of money which was unrelated to land right. The government had approved over $13 million of crop ex-gratia allowances to CYT villagers. Most of the farmers had already collected their allowances.

The construction works at CYT is a key part of the XRL project and involves the diversion of the rivercourse, and hence the works has to be completed in the dry season. The schedule is very tight, therefore the government has to carry out the remaining land resumption as soon as possible, to ensure the construction progress of the XRL project will not be affected.


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## hkskyline

*Mystery donor paves way for end to rail row *
10 February 2011
The Standard

The eviction and resettlement stalemate in Choi Yuen Tsuen to make way for a high-speed railway appears to have been resolved following news that a philanthropist has bought a road access that was preventing residents from moving to their new village.

The unnamed philanthropist paid an undisclosed amount for the road in Yuen Kong San Tsuen and donated it to the Heung Yee Kuk to be used by the public.

``I especially thank the philanthropist, who was very concerned about progress on constructing the rail link, mainland-Hong Kong economic integration as well as social harmony,'' kuk chairman Lau Wong-fat said at a spring reception yesterday.

``He generously bought the road access rights and donated them to the Heung Yee Kuk.''

Some villagers and their supporters had been in constant confrontation with MTR construction workers, fearing their old homes would be razed before the new village is built.

Choi Yuen Tsuen Concern Group chairwoman Ko Chun-heung said the 47 families holding out in the village had been asked to pay an access fee of up to HK$5 million for use of a 150-meter section of the road but were only willing to pay HK$500,000.

Lau declined to name the donor or the amount paid to the four road owners. A source said the donor had been keeping tabs on what was happening and agreed to buy the rights when Lau made the proposal.

Lau said the government may consider meeting maintenance costs out of the Home Affairs Department's rural public works program.

Lau and his deputy, Cheung Hok-ming, yesterday signed a letter formalizing the arrangement, which was handed to villager Yip Shui- lai, 72, who in turn passed it to Ko.

Ko said villagers are pleased with the breakthrough. However, the deal covers only a section of the 500-meter road.

She said although Lau has assured villagers there is no need to deal with the rights of the remaining 350-meter section, she wants the kuk, or the government, to state clearly that villagers have free access.

Ko also said villagers will discuss with the government whether their relocation can be completed by November, when construction of their new homes will be completed.

A bureau spokesman pointed out that the government has given villagers a four-month grace period effective since October. He called on villagers to move out as soon as possible.


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## Diego San

^^

good news!!!


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## hkskyline

2/6


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## hkskyline

*Villagers get full access rights to private road *
11 February 2011
SCMP

Displaced Tsoi Yuen villagers will get permanent access to their new homes at Yuen Kong Tsuen, Pat Heung, via a private road to the main road, Heung Yee Kuk chairman Lau Wong-fat said yesterday.

Lau also promised that villagers would not have to pay to maintain the private road because that was the district council's job.

Speaking on RTHK, Lau, nicknamed the King of the New Territories, said all 18 landowners who owned parts of the private road had agreed to keep it permanently open after a mystery benefactor bought the access rights for the new villagers. But Lau remained silent on the identity of the benefactor.

Forty-seven Tsoi Yuen families, displaced by the HK$66.9 billion high-speed railway project connecting Hong Kong to Guangzhou, bought land near Yuen Kong village and were preparing to build new homes.

But construction could not begin because the villagers were told they could not use a private road to their sites until they paid an access fee.

That fee, which was HK$200,000 in August, jumped to HK$500,000 in November and then to HK$5 million in December.

Lau said on Wednesday that the mystery benefactor who had paid for the access rights had also donated them to the Kuk, the body that represents the interests of all indigenous people in the New Territories.

"It is a rare opportunity. We know each other but [the deal] is coincidental," Lau said.

"The owners all agree to the Kuk's solution. Everyone can use the road. The access right will last for thousands of years and tens of thousands of generations," he said.

"The district council will be responsible for the maintenance. All the private roads in the New Territories are maintained by applying for the council's small project funds."

Ko Chun-heung, the head of the Tsoi Yuen villagers' concern group, said they would contribute to the building of community facilities in the new neighbourhood.

The goodwill gesture, aimed at improving the frosty relationship between Yuen Kong villagers and their new neighbours, will see HK$500,000, an amount the Tsoi Yuen villagers had earmarked for buying the access rights, spent on community facilities.

"The neighbourhood is always threatened by flooding," Ko said. "We are prepared to contribute to this or other community facilities. We will talk to our neighbours, we respect their needs."

The Tsoi Yuen villagers also gave up their right to vote in elections at Yuen Kong after villagers expressed hostility over their moving in.


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## hkskyline

*100 police, 300 workers descend to wrest land back for railway *
23 February 2011
South China Morning Post

Hundreds of police, security guards and workers were used to resume two plots of farmland and a recycling plant at Tsoi Yuen Tsuen yesterday, a number police said was appropriate.

Resumptions in the village, being razed to make way for the HK$66.9 billion high-speed railway to Guangzhou, began in October, but some 60 families have refused to leave.

Families on the farmland and the owner of the recycling plant woke yesterday to find their land being resumed. Another resident, who drove out of the village in the morning, was unable to return to his house by car in the evening because the road was blocked.

The owner of the plant, Cheung Sun-yau, said about 100 police and 300 security guards and workers were used in the operation.

Police refused to say how many officers were used but said the manpower was appropriate to maintain public order.

The gate was then cut open and hundreds of people stormed into the plant, he said. "More than 10 policemen pushed me into my house and searched me. The others were outside erecting barbed wire."

Cheung's truck was driven out of the plant by workers after he was told to give them the key. "I don't understand why they need hundreds of people to deal with me - a single person," he said.

Cheung's house was not resumed, but nearly all the land around it was.

He said he felt despair, anger and helplessness. "I was negotiating with the government peacefully only a few days ago. Why would they now resume the land so suddenly?"

The South China Morning Post reported on Saturday that Cheung was offered HK$220,000 from the government for the trees, seedlings, pond, abandoned house and chicken shed on the 40,000 square feet of farmland, which he has turned into an illegal metal recycling plant.

The MTR Corporation also offered HK$150,000 for materials including hoardings at the site. But Cheung refused the offers, saying they were insufficient to recover his investment in the plant.

Another villager, Lo Li-yin, 46, said a narrow path was built for the villagers a week ago, but yesterday the main road in the village was blocked and cars could not enter.

A spokeswoman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said the villagers and business operators had already had a four-month period of grace. The bureau had discussed the relocation schedules with Cheung for months without success, she said.


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## hkskyline

*Activists expect showdown with MTR Corp over access to village *
3 March 2011
South China Morning Post

Activists expect a showdown with the MTR Corporation as access is restricted to a Yuen Long village being razed for the express rail link to Guangzhou.

Chu Hoi-dick, a member of the Tsoi Yuen Tsuen Concern Group, said the volunteers helping the remaining 47 families in Tsoi Yuen Tsuen would no longer be able to freely walk through the area because a gate would soon be installed to block the entrance to the village.

"The village used to be a large piece of land where everyone could move freely. The MTR Corp has turned the village into dozens of zones by erecting hoardings and barricades. It has also built gates between these zones, so there is no way we can walk from one end of the village to another without being stopped by security guards," he said. "Now everything is in place. They can build the last gate very quickly."

However, the MTR Corp said the hoardings and barricades were needed for the safety of workers, villagers and visitors. It promised an access road would be built for villagers who had not yet moved out.

Chu believed the gates were to stop the group's patrol teams entering the village to help the villagers. The group recruited nearly 500 city dwellers, most of them university students, to form patrol teams to provide instant help to villagers. Patrol team members frequently argue with MTR Corp workers, sometimes resulting in clashes. Police arrested two team members for criminal damage on Tuesday after a dozen tried to stop a piling machine digging a trench near the home of an elderly couple.

"The arrest is a warning signal," Chu said. "It is aimed at intimidating the patrol teams."

Tsoi Yuen village has to be bulldozed so a depot can be built for the HK$66.9 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Link. The 47 families plan to rebuild their homes together on land they bought at Yuen Kong Tsuen, and are negotiating with the government on a timetable for leaving Tsoi Yuen Tsuen.


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## EricIsHim

*China completes construction of world's fastest underwater railway tunnel*

English.news.cn 2011-03-12 14:04:30

GUANGZHOU, March 12 (Xinhua) -- Construction of China's first underwater railway tunnel was completed Saturday in south China, which allows trains to operate at the world's top speed under the water.

The project, or the Shiziyang Tunnel, crossed the Pearl River estuary in south China's Guangdong Province with a length of 10.8 kilometers. It is designed for trains travelling at 350 kilometers per hour, the highest of all underwater tunnels worldwide.

The 10.8-kilometer tunnel, which is also the country's longest, is a key part of a 140-kilometer high-speed rail link that connects Guangzhou, the capital of China's southern economic powerhouse Guangdong, with the city of Shenzhen, also in Guangdong, and Hong Kong.

Liu Guangjun, project manager with the Shiziyang Tunnel, said large shielding machines had been used in digging of the tunnel at 60 meters underwater.

Construction of the tunnel started in November 2007, and the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail link is scheduled to put into operation in 2012, which would slash travel time between Guangzhou and Hong Kong to 40 minutes from the current two hours.

The express is also expected to join with the country's express railway network and take passengers only eight hours from Hong Kong to Beijing.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-03/12/c_13774762.htm


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## YannSZ

Pictures taken yesterday on the construction site of the FuTian Station.


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## EricIsHim

*Bill Nye Should Check Out China; Another “World’s Fastest” Train Near *

Mar. 12 2011 - 11:42 pm 

China completes underground tunnel Saturday for its latest high speed line. MTR Corporation's bullet train will average 217 mph and be operational between 2012-15.
This weekend, America’s favorite science teacher Bill Nye the Science Guy, blasted the US for not having a high speed rail system. Meanwhile, on the other side of the planet, China completed its first underwater railway tunnel on Saturday. The government there likes to call it the “world’s fastest” underwater railroad. It will be.

Nye was lambasting our lack of high speed trains during a National Engineers Week event at Walt Disney World’s Epcot Center.

China’s Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong bullet train is run by Hong Kong based MTR Corporation, (MTRJY). These are the guys who run the Hong Kong metro. MTR’s GSHK express train will be able travel 217 miles per hour, the company says. By comparison, our Acela Express, which has daily runs from Boston to Washington, DC, can only go up to 150 miles per hour.

MTRs super train is not ready to glide at top speeds under ground just yet. What was completed this weekend was just the Shiziyang Tunnel under the Pearl River estuary in south China’s Guangdong Province. The tunnel is around 7 miles long and designed especially for high speed, underground transit. China’s underground will be the world’s fastest when the express train is operational by as early as 2012, according to MTR.

The tunnel is a key part of a 140-kilometer high-speed rail link that connects Guangzhou, the capital of China’s southern economic powerhouse Guangdong, with the city of Shenzhen, also in Guangdong, and Hong Kong. Liu Guangjun, project manager with the Shiziyang Tunnel, told Xinhua that large shielding machines had been used in digging the tunnel at 196 feet underwater.

Construction of the tunnel started in November 2007. The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail would slash travel time between Guangzhou and Hong Kong to 40 minutes from the current two hours and will ultimately be part of an 88 mile stretch of high speed railroad connecting Hong Kong with mainland China. According to the environmental impact study on the project back in 2009, the train “will significantly increase integration of cities, and promote business and tourism towards a greener economy.”

The tunnel is just the beginning. The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong rail is part of China’s “Medium to Long Term Rail Network Plan”, established in 2004. The plan seeks to create a 9,941 mile rail line to integrate most of China’s major cities. So, yes, the infrastructure and growth narrative is very much in place in China. But let’s not forget the technological know-how to build this thing.

At 217 miles per hour, the new train will be China’s fastest below ground, but not China’s fastest overall. The Siemens AG (SI) built Shanghai magnetic levitation train can reach top speeds of 267 miles per hour, according to passengers who have traveled on the Shanghai Maglev.

(Can Bill please explain to me why we can’t do this in the US? I mean, I’ve been on the Acela train. I love it. But I don’t think it’s ever gone over 100 mph on my Bos-Nyc trips.)

http://blogs.forbes.com/kenrapoza/2...out-china-worlds-fastest-train-near-complete/


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## Traceparts

EricIsHim said:


> *Bill Nye Should Check Out China; Another “World’s Fastest” Train Near *
> 
> 
> China’s Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong bullet train is run by Hong Kong based MTR Corporation, (MTRJY). These are the guys who run the Hong Kong metro. MTR’s GSHK express train will be able travel 217 miles per hour, the company says. By comparison, our Acela Express, which has daily runs from Boston to Washington, DC, can only go up to 150 miles per hour.
> http://blogs.forbes.com/kenrapoza/2...out-china-worlds-fastest-train-near-complete/


No way!!


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## Silly_Walks

Traceparts said:


> No way!!


I too have never read that anywhere else before.


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## hkskyline

YannSZ said:


> Pictures taken yesterday on the construction site of the FuTian Station.


Please credit these photos properly. The author is : http://www.flickr.com/photos/yleberre/with/5522003048/


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## YannSZ

hkskyline said:


> Please credit these photos properly. The author is : http://www.flickr.com/photos/yleberre/with/5522003048/


Sorry :S This is me...


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## hkskyline

^ Ah OK, sorry. We're quite sensitive to attributing authors properly especially for Flickr these days.


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## hkskyline

*First arrests in Tsoi Yuen Tsuen*
2 March 2011
South China Morning Post

Two protesters were arrested for causing criminal damage after clashing with MTR Corporation employees at Tsoi Yuen Tsuen yesterday. They were the first arrests since the lands officials and MTR Corp moved into the village in Shek Kong, Yuen Long, in November to start building a depot for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Link. Police said they arrested the two after receiving complaints that metal fences were being damaged.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

EricIsHim said:


> *Bill Nye Should Check Out China; Another “World’s Fastest” Train Near *
> 
> Mar. 12 2011 - 11:42 pm
> 
> China completes underground tunnel Saturday for its latest high speed line. MTR Corporation's bullet train will average 217 mph and be operational between 2012-15.
> MTRs super train is not ready to glide at top speeds under ground just yet. What was completed this weekend was just the Shiziyang Tunnel under the Pearl River estuary in south China’s Guangdong Province. The tunnel is around 7 miles long and designed especially for high speed, underground transit. China’s underground will be the world’s fastest when the express train is operational by as early as 2012, according to MTR.
> 
> The tunnel is a key part of a 140-kilometer high-speed rail link that connects Guangzhou, the capital of China’s southern economic powerhouse Guangdong, with the city of Shenzhen, also in Guangdong, and Hong Kong. Liu Guangjun, project manager with the Shiziyang Tunnel, told Xinhua that large shielding machines had been used in digging the tunnel at 196 feet underwater.
> 
> Construction of the tunnel started in November 2007. The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail would slash travel time between Guangzhou and Hong Kong to 40 minutes from the current two hours and will ultimately be part of an 88 mile stretch of high speed railroad connecting Hong Kong with mainland China. According to the environmental impact study on the project back in 2009, the train “will significantly increase integration of cities, and promote business and tourism towards a greener economy.”


In which year exactly shall the rail link open between Futian and West Kowloon stations?


----------



## stingstingsting

^^

Hi chornedsnorkack. I respectfully request that you phrase your questions forthwith along the lines of "when will the rail link between Futian and West Kowloon stations be opened", instead of "in which year exactly shall the rail link open between Futian and West Kowloon stations". I understand that this constitutes pedantry on my part. However, you have posted numerous short one-question posts and they have mostly been structured in that way.

This is my two cents worth and I would appreciate if you could take my suggestion on. Thank you in advance.


----------



## EricIsHim

chornedsnorkack said:


> In which year exactly shall the rail link open between Futian and West Kowloon stations?


Right now, scheduled 2015/2016.


----------



## Silly_Walks

stingstingsting said:


> ^^
> 
> Hi chornedsnorkack. I respectfully request that you phrase your questions forthwith along the lines of "when will the rail link between Futian and West Kowloon stations be opened", instead of "in which year exactly shall the rail link open between Futian and West Kowloon stations". I understand that this constitutes pedantry on my part. However, you have posted numerous short one-question posts and they have mostly been structured in that way.
> 
> This is my two cents worth and I would appreciate if you could take my suggestion on. Thank you in advance.


I at least understood what chornedsnorkack was asking; I don't know what you are on about.


----------



## Galactic

I'm not sure what the information on the opening of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen section previously was, but I think it has been delayed:
http://english.sz.gov.cn/ln/201103/t20110328_1646783.htm
The opening of the Universiade is on August 12, so apparently the line will be open on August 11.


----------



## YannSZ

Galactic said:


> I'm not sure what the information on the opening of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen section previously was, but I think it has been delayed:
> http://english.sz.gov.cn/ln/201103/t20110328_1646783.htm
> The opening of the Universiade is on August 12, so apparently the line will be open on August 11.


Yes but I don't think they are talking about the Futian - Guangzhou section. I think they are talking about the section between Shenzhen North Train Station to Guangzhou. I really don't see FuTian underground train station opening in August, there's just too much work to do.


----------



## Svartmetall

stingstingsting said:


> ^^
> 
> Hi chornedsnorkack. I respectfully request that you phrase your questions forthwith along the lines of "when will the rail link between Futian and West Kowloon stations be opened", instead of "in which year exactly shall the rail link open between Futian and West Kowloon stations". I understand that this constitutes pedantry on my part. However, you have posted numerous short one-question posts and they have mostly been structured in that way.
> 
> This is my two cents worth and I would appreciate if you could take my suggestion on. Thank you in advance.


Not everyone speaks English as their first language. Please don't be so disrespectful on an international forum.


----------



## YannSZ

Svartmetall said:


> Not everyone speaks English as their first language. Please don't be so disrespectful on an international forum.


Totally agree.


----------



## stingstingsting

Svartmetall said:


> Not everyone speaks English as their first language. Please don't be so disrespectful on an international forum.


I apologise. It is not in my place to criticise anyone's level of English nor was it ever my intention to do so. I was annoyed that he repeatedly posted similar one-liner questions across this forum. I understand that he has every right to but I thought I was being as respectful as I could be in stating that it would help if he could restructure future posts, but clearly that was not the case.

I sincerely did not wish to cause any anger and I again apologise to anyone who feels that I was putting anyone down simply because of English.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Look at the article I quoted.

It is quite loosely worded - are they talking about Guangzhou-Longhua, Guangzhou-Futian or Guangzhou-Hong Kong? Precisely which year? Yes, I say "which year", not "when". It is quite understandable that in 2011, it is not known "exactly which day" something it gets completed 4...5 years into future, so if it turns out that it is not yet known whether West Kowloon station shall open in 2015 or 2016, it is quite normal that it may be the answer that it opens 2015 or 2016. But since rail construction does take a few years even in China, "as early as 2012" or "2012-2015" are confusing as for uncertainty of future plans. 

When a long news item contains a few points which are ambiguously worded, or contradict previous news (thus representing either change of plans or error) or are conspicuously missing from the picture, I feel it quite appropriate to ask a short clarifying question about some unclear point. If you feel annoyed, explain more about what is a better way to seek such clarification?

Now back on topic.

If Futian station is not ready to be opened before 12th of August, 2011, then in which year shall Futian station and Longhua-Futian high speed railway be opened?


----------



## YannSZ

SZdaily - April 7th:

http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2011-04/06/content_1511778.htm



> GZ-SZ express rail to open in Aug.
> * THE Guangzhou-Shenzhen section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link would open Aug. 8*, the contractor said over the weekend.
> 
> The 116-km Guangzhou-Shenzhen section connects Guangzhou, Dongguan and Shenzhen in Guangdong. *The expected travel time between Guangzhou South Railway Station and Shenzhen’s Futian Station is 36 minutes. *Trains on this line will run at a maximum speed of 350 km/h.
> 
> Apart from Guangzhou South and Futian, the section will have another four stations from north to south, Dongchong, Humen, Guangming and Longhua.
> 
> The 142-km cross-border express railway will open in phases between 2011 and 2016. It will connect Kowloon in Hong Kong in the south and Panyu in Guangzhou in the north. The whole trip is expected to take 48 minutes.
> 
> The 26-km Hong Kong section, most of which is underground, is scheduled to open in 2016. It will have a maximum speed of 200 km/h.
> 
> The expected travel time from the West Kowloon Terminal to Guangzhou South Railway Station in Shibi, Guangzhou, will be 48 minutes. The railway will connect with the Wuhan-Guangzhou High-Speed Railway at Guangzhou South Station and the Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway at Shenzhen North Railway Station.
> 
> With the growing demand for cross border transport to and from the mainland, the Hong Kong government proposed to build the express railway in 2000.
> 
> (Li Jing)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

YannSZ said:


> SZdaily - April 7th:
> 
> http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2011-04/06/content_1511778.htm





Li Jing said:


> THE Guangzhou-Shenzhen section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link would open Aug. 8, the contractor said over the weekend.
> 
> The 116-km Guangzhou-Shenzhen section connects Guangzhou, Dongguan and Shenzhen in Guangdong. The expected travel time between Guangzhou South Railway Station and Shenzhen’s Futian Station is 36 minutes. Trains on this line will run at a maximum speed of 350 km/h.
> 
> Apart from Guangzhou South and Futian, the section will have another four stations from north to south, Dongchong, Humen, Guangming and Longhua.


Does it mean that Futian Station is, after all, on schedule for opening on 8th of August?



> The railway will connect with the Wuhan-Guangzhou High-Speed Railway at Guangzhou South Station and the Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway at Shenzhen North Railway Station.


And Guangzhou-Wuhan takes something like 3:16 with one stop at Changsha. Add 36 minutes and we are at 3:52. A few minutes at Shibi Station... and Futian-Wuhan should be under 4 hours.

How frequent shall through trains Futian-Wuhan be this August?


----------



## raymond_tung88

Does anyone know what type(s) of trainsets will be operating the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed railway?

Will it be a current CRH trainset that is already in operation elsewhere?


----------



## hkskyline

*Final bitter-sweet days for railway refugees*
11 April 2011
South China Morning Post

Few traces remain of the two-year battle waged between villagers, activists, the government and the MTR Corp over the future of a community forced to move out of the way of the new high-speed border railway.

The self-styled patrol unit of students and other volunteers who vowed to protect the Tsoi Yuen villagers has gone. So have the security guards hired by the MTR Corp with whom the protesters often clashed. And by the end of the month, the remaining villagers will also be gone.

All that is left to show of the intense political struggle between a new breed of activists, who believe the city should not sacrifice the well-being of any individual in its pursuit of economic growth, and the pro-growth government are the paintings and photographs around the village that document a two-year campaign.

Things have gone quiet since a deal was finalised for the residents to move to temporary homes built by the MTR Corp on land they have bought to build a new village.

"I have been packing for several days," 72-year-old Ip Shui-lai said. "It will take some soul-searching to figure out what to take and what to leave. Moving from a big home to a smaller one means plenty of the things have to be thrown away."

Ip and his father pooled their savings of HK$30,000 to buy 7,800 sq ft of land in the once little-known village near the People's Liberation Army camp at Shek Kong in 1963. His father, a teacher, named it Ip Garden and built a 700 sq ft house where they planted fruit trees, grew vegetables and raised chickens and pigeons, selling what they did not need.

"But it is a relief that we are having a new village eventually after so much hardship and frustration," Ip said as he took a break from packing in his house, which will be demolished to make way for a depot for the HK$66.9 billion railway connecting Hong Kong with Guangzhou. "I look forward to living in the new village where I believe I can enjoy retirement," he said.

But for neighbour Shung Tai, it is a sad moment. "The past two years have been a bad time," she said. "This house I am living in was built by my parents. I have lived here since I was born and those neighbours have been my neighbours for the past half a century. I don't want to move but I have no choice." Weeping, she said she had not started packing because "I don't know how to pack".

The villagers will move into 35 temporary flats of 400 sq ft each on a 188,000 sq ft site in nearby Yuen Kong village, which they bought for more than HK$18 million and where they plan to build an eco-friendly village with an organic farm and orchard.

Chen Yun-chung, an assistant professor of social science at the University of Science and Technology, who is helping plan the new village, said it should be completed by the end of the year.

Chen said villagers approached the government in mid-February with a proposal for moving to temporary housing. "They were exhausted by the clashes with the MTRC security guards, and the environment of the village was deteriorating rapidly as demolition had begun, so they made the concession of living in temporary housing," he said.

But first they had to overcome the objections of their new neighbours. After agreeing to forgo their rights in the village elections, they were faced with mounting financial demands for the right to use the only access road, which rose from an initial HK$200 to HK$5 million, or 12,000 sq ft of land plus HK$500,000.

The deadlock was resolved shortly after the Lunar New Year when a mystery benefactor paid the access fee and donated the rights to the Heung Yee Kuk.

The villagers began protesting in 2008 when they were first told they had to move, but no one took much notice until January last year when thousands of people in their twenties responded to activists' calls to surround the Legislative Council when a vote on funding for the railway was to be taken.

The action developed into a serious challenge for the government and marked the emergence of the so-called post-80s generation as a political force.

Originally 86 families joined the plan to buy land for a new village, but that number had dwindled to 47 by the time the deal was signed in December last year.

Clashes between Tsoi Yuen villagers, their patrol unit and MTR Corp security guards became a common sight after early January as demolition work intensified. One of the clashes led to about 50 villagers and supporters being taken away by police and security guards.

Ip hopes the villagers' campaign will change the government's way of handling demolitions prompted by development projects.

"I hope we will set a precedent that those who move out are not consumed by anger," he said.

"I hope the government will treat and talk to those affected by resettlement with respect and care.

"If they can change their attitude, I'm sure they can avoid a lot of confrontation with the public. Who wants confrontation?"


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## hkskyline

West Kowloon - 4/9


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## Scion

05013979 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05013ADE by ANR2008, on Flickr


05013C65 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05014021 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05014316 by ANR2008, on Flickr


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## Scion

050144C9 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05014512 by ANR2008, on Flickr


0501472A by ANR2008, on Flickr


0501487E by ANR2008, on Flickr


050148F1 by ANR2008, on Flickr


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## Scion

0501674A by ANR2008, on Flickr


050167E3 by ANR2008, on Flickr


050167F9 by ANR2008, on Flickr


050168B7 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05016915 by ANR2008, on Flickr


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## Scion

05016A68 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05016999 by ANR2008, on Flickr


050169B8 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05016A08 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05016A46 by ANR2008, on Flickr


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## Scion

05018C4C by ANR2008, on Flickr


05018E0E by ANR2008, on Flickr


05018E28 by ANR2008, on Flickr


05018E91 by ANR2008, on Flickr


----------



## mylifesucks

Just asking.

Will there be trains that will depart from Hong Kong and arrive at Guangzhou/Wuhan/(and Beijing in the future) directly NON-STOP? Or will the train stop at every station? 



> The railway will connect with the Wuhan-Guangzhou High-Speed Railway at Guangzhou South Station and the Xiamen-Shenzhen Railway at Shenzhen North Railway Station.


And do the passengers need to get off the train in Shenzhen north station and transit to another train to Xiamen or Shanghai? Or will the train go directly to xiamen DIRECTLY NONSTOP from HK?

If they stop at every station (more than 1) I will say that this "high speed rail" is completely useless.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

mylifesucks said:


> Just asking.
> 
> Will there be trains that will depart from Hong Kong and arrive at Guangzhou/Wuhan/(and Beijing in the future)


What is due to open first: Wuhan-Zhengzhou-Shijiazhuang-Beijing high speed railway, or Shenzhen-Hong Kong high speed railway?


mylifesucks said:


> directly NON-STOP? Or will the train stop at every station?


There are no longer any non-stop trains between Guangzhou South and Wuhan, they have been abolished. All trains stop at Changsha.

Nonstop trains used to take 3:08. One stop trains take 3:16.

There do not seem to be any trains stopping at every station. There are about 20 stations between Guangzhou South and Wuhan, but most trains only make 7...8 stops. All stop at Changsha, but each train seems to make and skip different stops in between. Total trip time around 3:50.


mylifesucks said:


> And do the passengers need to get off the train in Shenzhen north station and transit to another train to Xiamen or Shanghai? Or will the train go directly to xiamen DIRECTLY NONSTOP from HK?


The junction at Longhua Station seems to mean that Hong Kong-Xiamen trains have to come to stop there just to reverse direction. And if they do, why not pick up passengers as well, and continue as a direct but stopping trains?


mylifesucks said:


> If they stop at every station (more than 1) I will say that this "high speed rail" is completely useless.


The multistop trains Guangzhou South - Wuhan still get through in 3:50. Still more useful than 10 hour low speed trains.


----------



## mylifesucks

Haha thanks

I am quite disappointed according to your information that there will be no non-stop trains. I hope there is direct trains from shanghai to hong kong . This is one of the most crowded air route in the world.



> The multistop trains Guangzhou South - Wuhan still get through in 3:50. Still more useful than 10 hour low speed trains.


Haha agree. But do you know if there is any "express" trains from hong kong that will skip every stop in shenzhen? Shenzhen has 3 stations. It is unfair and will be annoying for people going to cities further away.


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## EricIsHim

^^ To my understanding, one of the criteria for mainland stations to have service to Hong Kong, rather it's the terminus or not, is the stations must have custom and immigration facility inside the building. So the numbers of stations with train service directly to Hong Kong will be quite limited, and probably only limited to the 1st tier big cities in short term.


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## chornedsnorkack

EricIsHim said:


> ^^ To my understanding, one of the criteria for mainland stations to have service to Hong Kong, rather it's the terminus or not, is the stations must have custom and immigration facility inside the building. So the numbers of stations with train service directly to Hong Kong will be quite limited, and probably only limited to the 1st tier big cities in short term.


MTR Guangdong through trains now travel to Foshan once daily and Zhaoqing once daily. Do Foshan and Zhaoqing stations now have immigration facilities?


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## honwai1983

To my understanding, through train services to Foshan and Zhaoqing have no immigration facilities. They have to get off and do immigration at Shang Ping.


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## hkskyline

*Railway protester in court for tearing off police officer's epaulette*
6 May 2011
South China Morning Post

An activist accused of tearing off a police officer's epaulette in a protest last year appeared in court yesterday accused of criminal damage.

Yang Kuang, 43, a programme host on Green Radio, an internet radio station, pleaded not guilty at Eastern Court.

The incident took place on January 15 during a demonstration outside the Legislative Council building against construction of the high-speed rail line to Guangzhou.

Judge Gary Lam Kar-yan ruled that Yang had a case to answer. The court heard Yang clashed with policeman Sze Yu-leong at the junction of Jackson Road and Chater Road when Legco discussed funding for the high-speed rail line. Sze said he formed a human chain with 40 officers by holding hands to prevent the protesters from lunging towards Legco.

"I warned him not to lunge forward, but he ignored the warning and continue lunging towards the human blockade," he told the court. "I took several small steps backwards because of the force. He used his left hand to clutch at my left epaulette. He kept pulling it until I swayed a bit.

"I warned him to withdraw his hand and back off, but he ignored the warning and the badge was torn off." A 17-minute video was played in court showing Yang's clash with police.

Sze said the badge was damaged and added that he and his colleagues used slight force to prise the badge from Yang's grasp.

Defence counsel Randy Shek said Sze pushed Yang's chest with both hands to stop him from proceeding.

Shek said the badge was damaged by the police when they tried to get it back. Sze said he did not rule out such a possibility.


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## hkskyline

*NGO warns of asbestos in sites of demolition*
29 March 2011
China Daily - Hong Kong Edition

An NGO warned on Monday that workers' health is being placed at risk of asbestos, a banned cancer-causing building material at demolition sites.

Trevor Sun, project manager of the Hong Kong Workers' Health Centre, told at a news conference that the health of workers and residents in Choi Yuen Village and Lower Ngau Tau Kok (II) Estate was being endangered by asbestos residues found in randomly piled rubble around demolition sites.

Sun showed results of a laboratory test on rubble samples from the sites, showing the presence of asbestos.

He suggested that workers and citizens' health may have been undermined by the asbestos tossed in rubble heaps in Choi Yuen Village by the Mass Transit Railway Corporation (MTRC).

He said that the contractor had been working against the provisions of the Air Pollution Control Ordinance while demolishing buildings.

He also pointed out that 1,100 of 1,400 buildings given preliminary evaluation under the Hong Kong Housing Society and Urban Renewal Authority's "Operation Building Bright" program contained asbestos.

Asbestos was widely used in construction before the 1980s.

Tse Lap Ah, assistant professor at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, said asbestos may lead to serious illness like pleural endotheliomas and asbetosis, and even lung cancer.

The malignant pleural endotheliomas and lung cancer still lack effective methods of treatment.

Most of the sufferers are shipyard and construction workers, he said.

The government has banned the import and sale of substances containing two kinds of asbestos since 1996.

However, other types of asbestos are still being imported to Hong Kong .

Sun said he hoped the Environmental Protection Department will help to augment building supervision and insist upon proper handing of asbestos rubble in Choi Yuen Village.

He also called on the Labour Department to make more careful examinations of demolishing workers to ensure they are properly equipped.

He also appealed for a physical check for the involved workers and citizens.

The MTRC said it was acting within the law on all phases of its work.

The environment and labor departments concurred that "no unlawful practices" had taken place during the demolition of Choi Yuen Village.

Housing Department replied that the area affected by the reconstruction of Lower Ngau Tau Kok (II) Estate is "quite limited".


----------



## hkskyline

Source : http://www.fotop.net/dreamer/


----------



## hkskyline

*Villagers raise stink over 'ridiculous' sewage fees*
The Standard
Monday, July 04, 2011

MTR Corp has been accused of providing Choi Yuen Tsuen villagers with a defective sewage treatment system, resulting in them having to pay "unreasonably high" fees.

Thirty-five households from the village were relocated to temporary prefabricated housing in Yuen Long to make way for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail link, before the construction of Choi Yuen New Village is completed by the end of the year.

But residents say each household has to pay more than HK$1,000 a month to hire sewage-sucking trucks to treat the waste water under the current treatment system designed and constructed by the MTRC.

Village concern group chairwoman Ko Chun-heung said the volume of sewage is high, as the runoff from sinks and showers, the so-called "gray water," is discharged to the centralized septic tanks, designed to only treat discharges from toilets - so-called "black water."

In addition, she said, ground water leaks into the septic tanks. Trucks need to be called at least three times a week, with villagers charged HK$1,500 per vehicle, invoices showed.

Longtime resident Yip Shui-lai said it is ridiculous for temporary villagers to be charged differently from others.

"No one in the New Territories has to bear such expensive sewer treatment fees like we do. But we have no choice but to pay," the 73-year-old farmer said.

"We are not running factories that generate a huge volume of sewage. Most of us live a simple farming life."

Concern group member and conservation activist Chu Hoi-dick said the system was sloppily and hastily designed by the railway operator last year, as it wanted residents to move out as soon as possible to make way for the high-speed railway.

"Villagers feel cheated by the MTRC, as they were not told about the high cost they would have to bear for sewage services," he said.

The estimated HK$100,000 bill has not yet been settled, and residents will meet Transport and Housing Bureau officials this morning.

An MTRC spokeswoman denied fees are as high as the villagers claim, saying the cost is between HK$10,000 and HK$20,000 a month.


----------



## khoojyh

Traceparts said:


> No way!!


why?


----------



## hkskyline

*Trials for GZ-SZ high-speed rail*
2011-July-27 08:53 
Shenzhen Daily

THE Guangzhou-Shenzhen section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed rail opened for trial operations yesterday, one month after a test.

The section, part of the Beijing-Hong Kong rail, will officially open between Aug. 10 and 12 although a date has not yet been set.

The section starts at Guangzhou South Railway Station and ends at Futian Station in Shenzhen. The 104.5-kilometer rail was designed for speeds of up to 350 kilometers an hour.

The travel time from Shenzhen to Guangzhou will be cut to 25 minutes and it would take only four hours to Wuhan and eight hours to Beijing after the Beijing-Wuhan section is completed at the end of this year, Guangzhou Railway Group sources said yesterday.

In the initial stages, Shenzhen will run 50 trains to Guangzhou, Changsha and Wuhan a day. The opening of the section will help Shenzhen integrate with the nation’s high-speed rail network.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong section has three stations in Shenzhen, including Guangming, Shenzhen North and Futian. Work on the 26-kilometer Hong Kong section started in 2010 and will be completed in 2015.

Futian Station in the Futian CBD will be China’s largest underground railway station when it opens in June next year.

Guangming Station is on Guanguang Road in Guangming New Zone, 30 kilometers from downtown Shenzhen.

The 3.95-billion-yuan (US$617 million) project will operate trains between Shenzhen, Guangzhou and Hong Kong.

Shenzhen transport commission has planned seven bus routes to connect the station. They will include three new routes connecting the Shiyan Bus Terminal, Qinghu Metro Station on Longhua Line and the Guangming grass ski slope.

Another four routes to be adjusted include Airport Route 5, 787 to Meilin Checkpoint, 788 to Shawan Bus Terminal and M218, a circular route in Guangming New Zone.

Shenzhen North Railway Station, which is 9.3 kilometers from the downtown area, is the largest transport hub in South China. It is also the transport hub for Shenzhen-Xiamen high-speed rail.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Trials for GZ-SZ high-speed rail*
> 2011-July-27 08:53
> Shenzhen Daily
> 
> The travel time from Shenzhen to Guangzhou will be cut to 25 minutes and it would take only four hours to Wuhan and eight hours to Beijing after the Beijing-Wuhan section is completed at the end of this year, Guangzhou Railway Group sources said yesterday.





hkskyline said:


> Work on the 26-kilometer Hong Kong section started in 2010 and will be completed in 2015.





hkskyline said:


> Futian Station in the Futian CBD will be China’s largest underground railway station when it opens in June next year.





hkskyline said:


> Shenzhen North Railway Station, which is 9.3 kilometers from the downtown area, is the largest transport hub in South China. It is also the transport hub for Shenzhen-Xiamen high-speed rail.


In which year shall Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed rail open?


----------



## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> In which year shall Shenzhen-Xiamen high speed rail open?


Source : http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2011-03/31/content_12252567.htm



> A high-speed railway reaching Guangzhou and Shenzhen of Guangdong province is scheduled to be completed at the end of 2012, which is expected to shorten the traveling time to three hours. Highways are being built to connect itself with Shanghai as well as Hangzhou of Zhejiang province.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Trials for GZ-SZ high-speed rail*
> 2011-July-27 08:53
> Shenzhen Daily
> 
> The section, part of the Beijing-Hong Kong rail, will officially open between Aug. 10 and 12 although a date has not yet been set.
> 
> The section starts at Guangzhou South Railway Station and ends at Futian Station in Shenzhen. The 104.5-kilometer rail was designed for speeds of up to 350 kilometers an hour.
> 
> The travel time from Shenzhen to Guangzhou will be cut to 25 minutes





hkskyline said:


> The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong section has three stations in Shenzhen, including Guangming, Shenzhen North and Futian. Work on the 26-kilometer Hong Kong section started in 2010 and will be completed in 2015.
> 
> Futian Station in the Futian CBD will be China’s largest underground railway station when it opens in June next year.
> 
> Guangming Station is on Guanguang Road in Guangming New Zone, 30 kilometers from downtown Shenzhen.


Shall 25 minutes be the trip time from Guangzhou South to the nearest station in Shenzhen (Guangming), Longhua or Futian?


----------



## hkskyline

*Inspector calls amid fears of express rail link safety*
The Standard
Thursday, August 04, 2011

A local think-tank has urged mainland authorities to set up an independent inspectorate to help ensure safety of the Hong Kong- Guangzhou Express Rail Link, amid public concerns after the fatal train crash near Wenzhou.

Professional Commons, led by Civic Party vice chairman Albert Lai Kwong-tak, said while the SAR has a regulatory body to oversee local railway safety, the lack of a corresponding mainland body would make it very difficult for the territory's government to ensure its section of the express rail link is safe.

Safety should be ensured along the entire rail link, not only the Hong Kong section, he stressed.

"There should be independent bodies on both sides [of the border] to exchange rail safety information and techniques," Lai said, calling for the mainland inspection body to be independent of the Ministry of Railways.

Commons member Paul Zimmerman said direct communication between the two bodies would be equally important.

The think-tank also called for a review of the terms of reference of the independent Hong Kong Railway Inspectorate - the railways branch of the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department - and its ability to ensure the safety of passengers and the system, including all cross- boundary services.

It also stressed the importance of a cooperation protocol between local and mainland inspectors.

Building of the express rail link began in January last year, with completion targeted for 2015.


----------



## hmmwv

I think the central government should extend the Hong Kong based inspector's authority to the entire line, I hate to say this but it's almost impossible to set up anything that's "independent" in the mainland side.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *Trials for GZ-SZ high-speed rail*
> 2011-July-27 08:53
> Shenzhen Daily
> 
> THE Guangzhou-Shenzhen section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed rail opened for trial operations yesterday, one month after a test.
> 
> The section, part of the Beijing-Hong Kong rail, will officially open between Aug. 10 and 12 although a date has not yet been set.


Shall it open tomorrow or some other day this week?


----------



## sasalove

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shall it open tomorrow or some other day this week?


The latest news is end of this month after the universide


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed rail opening undecided*
2011-August-11 08:53 
Shenzhen Daily

THE opening date of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed rail was yet to be decided, a senior official with Shenzhen’s rail traffic office told a news conference Tuesday.

The office announced last month that the line would open yesterday or no later than tomorrow before the Universiade, connecting Shenzhen’s high-speed railway with Guangzhou, Wuhan, Changsha and other large cities. When the line opens, it will take only 25 minutes to reach Guangzhou and four hours to Wuhan. It will take eight hours to reach Beijing next year when the 2,200-kilometer Beijing-Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed railway opens.

“We are waiting for a notice from higher authorities,” office spokesman Hu Chunlei said.

A Guangshen Railway Group source told the Guangzhou Daily on Tuesday that the rail would definitely open before the Universiade closes.

“The group has promised to open the line for the Games,” the source was quoted as saying.

The Guangshen Railway Group announced March 26 the Guangzhou-Shenzhen high-speed rail would open by the end of August.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong line had a test run July 26.

The section starts at Guangzhou South Railway Station and ends at Futian Station in Shenzhen. The 104.5-kilometer line was designed for speeds of up to 350 kilometers an hour, but it is not known whether the train will run at the design speed following the recent rail crash in Wenzhou, Zhejiang Province, on July 23.

In the initial stages, Shenzhen will run 50 trains to Guangzhou, Changsha and Wuhan each day. The opening of the section will help Shenzhen integrate with the nation’s high-speed rail network.

The 3.95-billion-yuan (US$617 million) section has three stations in Shenzhen, including Guangming, Shenzhen North and Futian. Work on the 26-kilometer Hong Kong section started in 2010 and will be completed in 2015.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *High-speed rail opening undecided*
> 2011-August-11 08:53
> Shenzhen Daily
> 
> When the line opens, it will take only 25 minutes to reach Guangzhou and four hours to Wuhan.
> The section starts at Guangzhou South Railway Station and ends at Futian Station in Shenzhen. The 104.5-kilometer line was designed for speeds of up to 350 kilometers an hour, but it is not known whether the train will run at the design speed following the recent rail crash in Wenzhou, Zhejiang Province, on July 23.
> 
> The 3.95-billion-yuan (US$617 million) section has three stations in Shenzhen, including Guangming, Shenzhen North and Futian. Work on the 26-kilometer Hong Kong section started in 2010 and will be completed in 2015.


Is the railway opening to Futian this month, or to Longhua?

Is the quoted 104,5 km the distance from Guangzhou South to Gutian, or to Longhua?


----------



## hkskyline

8/14


----------



## hkskyline

_Approach and station site along the bottom._










Source : http://www.fotop.net/cchan/


----------



## YannSZ

Shenzhen - Daily / October 20th: 
Lack of cash forces nationwide rail projects to a halt

http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2011-10/20/content_1788903.htm

Could this affect the construction of this section?


----------



## hmmwv

I think all the major lines already had funding allocated to them so I don't think the Shenzhen-HongKong line will get affected. What's in trouble are local segments of HSR that are majority funded by regional governments. These governments have to seek funding through state owned banks and sometimes from private sources.


----------



## hkskyline

hmmwv said:


> I think all the major lines already had funding allocated to them so I don't think the Shenzhen-HongKong line will get affected. What's in trouble are local segments of HSR that are majority funded by regional governments. These governments have to seek funding through state owned banks and sometimes from private sources.


There's a huge political push to send the HSR to Hong Kong. Think the Guangzhou - Shenzhen portion is almost done and soon will open (if it haven't already for the Universidade) while the Hong Kong section is funded locally.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> There's a huge political push to send the HSR to Hong Kong. Think the Guangzhou - Shenzhen portion is almost done and soon will open (if it haven't already for the Universidade) .


It certainly hasn´t.

Have there been any recent mentions of plan to open?


----------



## hkskyline

DSC_0687_RAW by Milano1899, on Flickr


----------



## mopc

hkskyline said:


> There's a huge political push to send the HSR to Hong Kong. Think the Guangzhou - Shenzhen portion is almost done and soon will open (if it haven't already for the Universidade) while the Hong Kong section is funded locally.


What's "Universidade"?


----------



## TWK90

^^

I think he meant "Universiade", not "Universidade"


----------



## hmmwv

hkskyline said:


> , on Flickr


I can see the hotel I stayed when I visited HK. That location is great because it's so close to Harbor City, we will see tons of mainlanders ride the train there shopping.


----------



## hkskyline

hmmwv said:


> I can see the hotel I stayed when I visited HK. That location is great because it's so close to Harbor City, we will see tons of mainlanders ride the train there shopping.


Yes - they can shop along Canton Road or head to Elements as well. Seems Elements is not that crowded although it has a similar selection high-end brands.


----------



## Blackraven

hkskyline said:


> Yes - they can shop along Canton Road or head to Elements as well. Seems Elements is not that crowded although it has a similar selection high-end brands.


Hehe it isn't supposed to have any crowds at all given that majority of the clients and people who hang out at Elements mall and even the IFC complex are the type of people who drive Benz's, buys *original* Louis Vuitton handbags for their wives/girlfriends (who are most likely 'gold-diggers' themselves) and considers HK$90 per hour parking as lunch money. :nuts::lol:


----------



## hkskyline

By *Zzlaz* from a Hong Kong discussion forum :


----------



## hkskyline

*LCQ12: Construction works of the Hong Kong section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link*
Wednesday, November 30, 2011
Government Press Release

Following is a question by the Hon Cheung Hok-ming and a written reply by the Secretary for Transport and Housing, Ms Eva Cheng, in the Legislative Council today (November 30):

Question:

Since the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) commenced the tunnelling works for the Hong Kong section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) last year, quite a number of residents in the villages have relayed to me that MTRCL conducts tunnel blasts regardless of night or day in order to meet deadlines, and the villagers are disturbed by the noise nuisance and are unable to sleep at night. Such villagers have also pointed out that because of the vigorous blasting works, vertical cracks appear on the walls of the village houses in the vicinity of the construction sites, gaps are found between the external walls of the houses and the ground, settlement in buildings and falling groundwater tables are detected, and other serious problems also prevail. Regarding the progress and safety issues of the XRL project, will the Government inform this Council:

(a) of the latest progress of the XRL project;

(b) whether it has assessed and measured the intensity of shock generated by the tunnel blasting works concerned in respect of three aspects, namely the extent of damages made to the affected buildings on the ground, changes in topography and people's feelings; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and whether it will make public the findings as soon as possible after making the assessment and measurements; and

(c) whether it knows the total number of complaints received since the commencement of the works by the authorities and MTRCL about the problems caused to the buildings and the topography in the vicinity of the construction sites as a result of the impact of the XRL project, the problems concerned and the measures taken to deal with them?

Reply:

President,

My reply to the three parts of the question is as follows:

(a) Construction works for the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) commenced in January 2010 and are progressing smoothly. Foundation works for the West Kowloon Terminus are substantially completed, while various related construction works in Yau Tsim Mong, Sham Shui Po, Kwai Tsing, Tsuen Wan and Yuen Long, en-route areas of the railway alignment, have started successively. As the Hong Kong section of the XRL runs in a dedicated tunnel throughout, the tunnels are built mainly by using tunnel boring machines (TBMs) and the drill and blast method. We have briefed the relevant district councils on the construction methods of the tunnels. We also keep liaising with the relevant communities on the works arrangement in the light of progress of the drilling and blasting works.

On tunnel boring, the first TBM was activated in September 2011 and has bored through 80 metres so far. Separately, tunnel drilling and blasting works in Tsuen Wan commenced in November 2010, while those in Kwai Tsing and Yuen Long began in 2011 gradually.

It is expected that civil works (including tunnel drilling and blasting) for the main tunnel will be completed in 2013 and the Hong Kong section of the XRL will be completed in 2015 as scheduled.

(b) We will do our best to minimise the impact of the works on the public during the construction of the XRL project.

As early as the project design stage, we carried out careful and comprehensive assessments on the geological conditions and structures in the vicinity of the works areas to ensure that the construction works and the methods employed would not affect the structural safety of nearby structures. In addition, we conducted an environmental impact assessment as required under the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance on the Hong Kong section of the XRL, in which the environmental impact during the construction and operation of the railway was carefully evaluated and corresponding mitigation measures were proposed.

In the course of the drilling and blasting works, the MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL) and their contractor will stringently implement various safety measures and codes of practice concerned, and will strictly observe all relevant legislation and requirements, including the mitigation measures specified in the Environmental Permit for alleviating environmental impact. Also, the MTRCL and their contractor have installed monitoring points to oversee the works by checking such relevant data as measurements on noise and vibration, with a view to monitoring the impact of the works on the adjacent environment and structures for enhancing public safety and minimising environmental impact. 

Every time when blasting works are carried out, the airflow and vibration caused will be measured at both ends of the tunnel and nearby monitoring points. Up to now, the data recorded, including those on airflow and vibration, have not exceeded the corresponding statutory ceilings or jeopardised the structural safety of adjacent buildings. The noise generated during the works has not gone beyond the relevant statutory limit either.

During construction, the MTRCL and their contractor will try to minimise the impact of works on the neighbourhood, and maintain close contact and communication throughout with residents concerned by such measures as giving explanation to relevant dwellers, owners' committees / corporations, village representatives, district councillors and local communities and addressing their concerns; organising community liaison group meetings; distributing XRL Newsletters and pamphlets on tunnel drilling and blasting works; and arranging site inspections for district councillors and local personalities to inspect the works and be briefed by engineers on the works procedures and safety measures taken.

(c) We have so far received 80 reports on damage to relevant land lots and buildings suspected to have been caused by the works. Upon receipt of such reports, the MTRCL and their contractor will visit the damaged lots or buildings within one working day to conduct investigation. If the damage is proved to have been caused by the works, repairs will be carried out as soon as possible; if proved otherwise, the MTRCL will also inform the clients of the investigation results. On some occasions, the MTRCL will, at the request of the clients, refer the cases to notaries public for objective and fair arbitration to safeguard the interests of local residents.


----------



## YannSZ

SZ Daily - Dec. 5th:

SZ-HK rail steel bars collapse, 2 killed

TWO workers were killed and three others were in a critical condition as a reinforcing steel bar collapsed in the tunnel of the Shenzhen-Hong Kong section of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed rail which is under construction below Huanggang Park.

A total of 16 workers were buried in the tunnel when the accident happened at 9:30 a.m. Thursday. The other 11 workers were in hospital with minor injuries.

According to an injured worker Gong, 37, a native of Zigong City, Sichuan Province, the workers were connecting a reinforcing steel bar structure before concreting the wall of the tunnel, but the steel bar suddenly collapsed.

The city’s rail project construction office and safety production office had started investigating the cause.

The Shenzhen-Hong Kong section of the rail will be built underground with an investment of HK$1.7 billion (US$216 million). *It is China’s first cross-border tunnel and will open in 2014.*

Accidents on the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong rail project have been frequent.

Five cave-ins have taken place in the area near Zhongkang housing estate in Futian District since March this year. In February last year, two were killed and seven others injured when a truck fell from the elevated bridge of the special line which was being constructed in Guangming.(Han Ximin)


----------



## cnzhongke

china zhongke maquinas mineria trituradora de mandibula jae crusher 
http://www.chinazhongke.net/esp


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Silly_Walks said:


> lol, 2412 km to get from Guangzhou tot Hong Kong... I wonder what route they take... through vietnam?


LOL!
There is a better alternative:
from Guangzhou to Wuhan
then Wuhan through Hefei to Nanjing
then Nanjing-Hangzhou
then Hangzhou-Ningbo
then Ningbo-Wenzhou-Fuzhou-Xiamen
then Xiamen-Longhua
reversing at Longhua, to Futian-Kowloon West.

In which year is Xiamen-Longhua high speed railway due to open?


----------



## DoubleU

Taken by me today.











They started two, three weeks ago to fill up sand on one part of the concrete slab and pour a layer of concrete on it to place some new worker barracks there. 
My guess is that they soon will get rid of the other barracks which are located on the west side of the park, north of Central Walk Mall, to start the road work there.
Other activities on site are that they are constantly loading steel parts which they obviously don't need anymore on trucks and drive them away.


----------



## DoubleU

I also found interesting photos from the most south part of the Futian Train Station. You can clearly see that they still have an opening there and a crane on top. Might be for heavy machines, e.g. for MEP use.
On the second photo you can see in the far back, if you follow the main road (YiTian Lu) to the green hill within the residential blocks, a orange crane as well. This is another construction site of the BeiJing - Hong Kong High Speed Rail where they doing the tunnel boring.

Pictures BY 1788111, posted on June 5th, 2012.


----------



## DoubleU

Taken by me today


----------



## hmmwv

No visible above ground progress compare to a month ago, maybe they are only working underground.


----------



## China Hand

The area was just a huge hole in the ground site in February, with many loaders coming and going, traffic was a mess. Maybe they have started to bore the tunnel.


----------



## DoubleU

*High-speed train to offer eight-hour Beijing trip *

IT will take about eight hours to travel from Shenzhen to Beijing when the entire length of a multi-section high-speed train line opens at the end of the year.
High-speed train service from Shenzhen to Wuhan will be extended north to Zhengzhou Station when the Wuhan-Zhengzhou section opens, which is planned for September, the Ministry of Railways said.
A rail section between Zhengzhou and Anyang in Henan Province has passed tests using speeds up to 350 kilometers per hour.
Ministry officials said tests along 1,000 kilometers of the northern section of the Beijing-Shenzhen rail, between Beijing and Wuhan, will be completed at the end of the year. The 2,372 kilometers between Beijing and Shenzhen could be traveled in as few as eight hours if trains run at 300 kilometers per hour.
The opening of the entire Beijing-Shenzhen line is expected to pose a threat to airlines, as many residents are hoping fares for high-speed trains will be less expensive than airfares.
It currently takes 24 to 29 hours to travel from Shenzhen to Beijing on regular trains T108 and K106, which charge 200 yuan (US$32) for a seat and 400 yuan for a hard sleeper.
The trip takes about three hours by air, but can cost 1,750 yuan for an economy seat. Many airlines offer discounts for one-way flights between the two cities.


Source: http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2012-08/07/content_2152842.htm


----------



## foxmulder

^^ That's really cool. 2400km in 8 hrs is simply amazing. I hope they operate non-stop trains. Once Harbin - Beijing line finishes, you can go from Harbin to Honk Kong with high speed train.  That will be fun.


----------



## China Hand

foxmulder said:


> ^^ That's really cool. 2400km in 8 hrs is simply amazing. I hope they operate non-stop trains. Once Harbin - Beijing line finishes, you can go from Harbin to Honk Kong with high speed train.  That will be fun.


I don't think it will be 8 hours, more like 9.

In my trips, the top speed of the line x .85 is your average speed.

So if the line is running at 347, you travel at 296, 308 top speed, you travel at 262 kph avg, including stops, etc.

If the BEJ-SZX line is running at 308, the trip will probably take 2372 / 262 = 9.05 hours. That can be done easily in one day with no sleeper.

I have read that if a trip is longer than 1,000 km it's better to fly, but flying in China still has many developing nation problems. A flight of 2.5 hours can have 5 or 6 hours added:

1 to airport
1 to checkin
1 to wait and board
1 to sit on runway waiting for clearance
1 to get luggage and arrive
1 to get from airport to destination

Making the trip one of 7.5 or 8.5 hours and an average travel time of only 270 or 333 kph for a 2300 to 2500 km flight. If you live close to a CRH line, or can take the subway directly to a terminus as in Zhengzhou or Xi'an, it's better to CRH than fly for trips of even 1200 or 1300 km.

But once you get to 1500, it's better to fly. Certainly heading out to Urumqi or Haerbin from the coast would be faster flying.

Unless you love train travel as I do!

CRH has many benefits right now. The trains all have large pitch and wide seats, something a 2m traveler appreciates. They are new, clean, and well maintained. They do not stop for people at overpasses, or crawl out of the station hoping to pick up people on the street. They rarely have delays, they leave on time (usually to the minute), they allow one to see the countryside and they cost -54% or less of airfares.

With the standard delays and hassles of domestic air travel, CRH is a very attractive alternative at the current price per passenger km.


----------



## hkskyline

Indeed, China's largest cities are very prone to major flight delays and there are all sorts of excuses given for it. But Beijing - Shenzhen is a very long journey so I probably would put up with the risk of a few hours delay. The flight is 3.5 hours only.


----------



## FM 2258

China Hand said:


> I don't think it will be 8 hours, more like 9.
> 
> In my trips, the top speed of the line x .85 is your average speed.
> 
> So if the line is running at 347, you travel at 296, 308 top speed, you travel at 262 kph avg, including stops, etc.
> 
> If the BEJ-SZX line is running at 308, the trip will probably take 2372 / 262 = 9.05 hours. That can be done easily in one day with no sleeper.
> 
> I have read that if a trip is longer than 1,000 km it's better to fly, but flying in China still has many developing nation problems. A flight of 2.5 hours can have 5 or 6 hours added:
> 
> 1 to airport
> 1 to checkin
> 1 to wait and board
> 1 to sit on runway waiting for clearance
> 1 to get luggage and arrive
> 1 to get from airport to destination
> 
> Making the trip one of 7.5 or 8.5 hours and an average travel time of only 270 or 333 kph for a 2300 to 2500 km flight. If you live close to a CRH line, or can take the subway directly to a terminus as in Zhengzhou or Xi'an, it's better to CRH than fly for trips of even 1200 or 1300 km.
> 
> But once you get to 1500, it's better to fly. Certainly heading out to Urumqi or Haerbin from the coast would be faster flying.
> 
> Unless you love train travel as I do!
> 
> CRH has many benefits right now. The trains all have large pitch and wide seats, something a 2m traveler appreciates. They are new, clean, and well maintained. They do not stop for people at overpasses, or crawl out of the station hoping to pick up people on the street. They rarely have delays, they leave on time (usually to the minute), they allow one to see the countryside and they cost -54% or less of airfares.
> 
> With the standard delays and hassles of domestic air travel, CRH is a very attractive alternative at the current price per passenger km.


This is probably the same for the U.S. .... I bet any other country as well. A 1 hour flight could really mean a 3 hour trip from doorstep to doorstep. I love planes a little more than trains but to try out the CRH would be awesome. I've only been on the CRH1 from Guangzhou East to Shenzhen(Luohu) and the Shanghai maglev(only ran at 186mph vs. 268mph since it was evening). Maybe by the time I visit China again the *CRH500*'s will be cruising the main high speed lines regularly with no speed reductions. 

Interestingly enough during my trip to China in 2010 I had 6 domestic flight segments but only one was delayed(SHA-PEK). I'm glad it an hour late because I probably would have missed it if the flight was on time.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

DoubleU said:


> *High-speed train to offer eight-hour Beijing trip *
> 
> IT will take about eight hours to travel from Shenzhen to Beijing when the entire length of a multi-section high-speed train line opens at the end of the year.
> High-speed train service from Shenzhen to Wuhan will be extended north to Zhengzhou Station when the Wuhan-Zhengzhou section opens, which is planned for September, the Ministry of Railways said.
> A rail section between Zhengzhou and Anyang in Henan Province has passed tests using speeds up to 350 kilometers per hour.
> Ministry officials said tests along 1,000 kilometers of the northern section of the Beijing-Shenzhen rail, between Beijing and Wuhan, will be completed at the end of the year. The 2,372 kilometers between Beijing and Shenzhen could be traveled in as few as eight hours if trains run at 300 kilometers per hour.
> 
> Source: http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2012-08/07/content_2152842.htm


Which rails are 2372 km?

Several stretches of high speed railway are shorter than the parallel low speed railways. Guangzhou-Wuhan is 1069 km - but high speed railway is 968 km. High speed line is 102 km Guangzhou-Longhua, and would be 116 km Guangzhou-Futian. I have seen the high speed line Wuhan-Beijing quoted at 1121 km - and then Longhua-Beijing would be 2191 km, not 2372.

In which year is Futian Station due to open?


----------



## DoubleU

Taken this morning by me


----------



## foxmulder

^^ Nice pictures :cheers:


----------



## hmmwv

Very nice! Thanks for sharing. Now that's some nice progress, it's interesting that such two high profile projects (Ping'an and this underground station) are right next to each other.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

I think this is amazing because this High Speed Rail station is in the center of town rather than on the outskirts like other Chinese cities, extremely convenient. Even Shenzhen Railway Station(Luohu) is another conveniently located HSR station. It seems that most other Chinese cities have their high speed rail stations on the outskirts(Guangzhou South comes to mind). 

It would be nice if planners could build a high speed branch from Guangzhou South to Zhujiang New Town(Guangzhou) to truly have city center to city center high speed rail connections on the Guangshen'gang railway. It might all have to be an underground line but I think the concept would be perfect for Guangzhou. 

Also thanks for the updates *DoubleU
* :cheers:


----------



## DoubleU

Another batch of photos. This time of the part along Shennan Dadao which I took after lunch while going back to the office.
It seems to me like a pick-up/drop-off area for taxis after the station will be open directly connected underground with all the metro and HSR facilities.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thanks for the updates. It's hard to see the full progress for this station because it's underground.

What is the area supposed to look like when it's all completed, any renders for this station?


----------



## hkskyline

I suspect the area above the station cannot hold a supertall.


----------



## hmmwv

^^ The construction site used to be a large road anyway, and it will be restored once construction is done IIRC.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

Thanks for the latest updates *DoubleU* & *hkskyline*. There won't be much to see out the window but I can't wait to take the line from Hong Kong to Shenzhen(Futian). This small part of the line will open up so many opportunities due to the speed. I mentioned before that going from Kowloon to Shenzhen border felt like it took 40 minutes when I took it. Not really sure but it seemed like a long trip.


----------



## hmmwv

This station is going to be crowded with mainland shoppers considering its proximity with Harbour City. I wonder if the customs will be inside the station, or do passengers clear immigration at the boarder? If the former I wonder if they can setup duty free shops inside the station much like in an airport.


----------



## hkskyline

I recall the plan is to have a unified immigration checkpoint on the Hong Kong side. The concept of duty-free is non-existent in Hong Kong since there is no sales tax to begin with. Everything in the city is technically duty-free.


----------



## hkskyline

3/24


ICC SKY100 by tomosang R32m, on Flickr


----------



## Geography

Why do mainland Chinese come to Hong Kong to shop? Don't all the big Chinese cities have every kind of luxury good for sale already?


----------



## urbanfan89

Geography said:


> Why do mainland Chinese come to Hong Kong to shop? Don't all the big Chinese cities have every kind of luxury good for sale already?


Zero taxes, better quality control, more variety of goods.


----------



## Silly_Walks

urbanfan89 said:


> Zero taxes, better quality control, more variety of goods.


They also buy a LOT at Amsterdem Schiphol Airport, but I very much doubt prices there are lower than in China or Hong Kong. They don't seem to care about the price at all.


I'm also guessing it has to do with variety and a lot smaller chance that you accidently buy a fake. Perhaps it also has to do with status? Buying and bringing it home from abroad you can say "Look, I bought this Hermes bag all the way in *insert far away place*".



I also know for a fact that some people buy expensive watches and bags to bring in/out more money than is legally allowed, but I doubt that's the reason for most people.


----------



## hkskyline

Silly_Walks said:


> They also buy a LOT at Amsterdem Schiphol Airport, but I very much doubt prices there are lower than in China or Hong Kong. They don't seem to care about the price at all.
> 
> 
> I'm also guessing it has to do with variety and a lot smaller chance that you accidently buy a fake. Perhaps it also has to do with status? Buying and bringing it home from abroad you can say "Look, I bought this Hermes bag all the way in *insert far away place*".
> 
> 
> 
> I also know for a fact that some people buy expensive watches and bags to bring in/out more money than is legally allowed, but I doubt that's the reason for most people.


China has a very high luxury goods tax so it is oftentimes cheaper to buy abroad, such as in Hong Kong or in Europe.

I personally had found a Prada wallet I liked to be 20% cheaper in Milan than in Hong Kong.


----------



## hkskyline

5/30


IMG_5198 by Ivan Lau, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

6/22


2013.6.22 時光可變 世界可變... by bbda♥, on Flickr


----------



## Blackraven

hkskyline said:


> I personally had found a Prada wallet I liked to be 20% cheaper in Milan than in Hong Kong.


The most probable reason for that is that Prada is an Italian brand. I reckon it's cheaper to buy that brand in Italy compared to Hong Kong (i.e. no shipping fees for Italy->HK)


----------



## DoubleU

*Futian high-speed rail hub to open in 2014*

Wang Yuanyuan
[email protected] 
HIGH-SPEED trains at Shenzhen North Station are expected to extend to Futian Station by the end of next year.
Construction of the station’s infrastructure is completed and interior projects are going smoothly, said Li Xiaoyi, vice director of the city’s rail office. 
Covering nearly 150,000 square meters, the three-story underground station is one of five stations on the high-speed railway between Guangzhou and West Kowloon in Hong Kong. When the Shenzhen- Hong Kong section opens in 2015, passengers will be able to take high-speed rail directly from the city’s central business district in Futian and get to West Kowloon Station in only 15 minutes, Li said. 
It also will be the only underground train station in a central business district on the mainland. 
The first floor, closest to the surface, will provide transfers to Metro trains and buses while the second and third floors will be train waiting areas and platforms, respectively. 
“This will be the largest underground high-speed rail station in Asia, with four platforms and eight tracks,” Li said. 
The station will intersect with Metro’s Shekou Line, Longgang Line and future Line 11. There will also be an underground passage so passengers can walk to Shopping Park Station and Convention and Exhibition Center Station to change to the Luobao and Longgang lines. 
A 20,000-square-meter station will be built on Yitian Road for bus and taxi services. 
“This will be very convenient for people traveling between Shenzhen and Hong Kong. I often go to Hong Kong on business, but the long journey takes me hours. I think many people, particularly businesspeople, will benefit from the station,” Shenzhen businesswoman Zhao Xinyu told Shenzhen Daily yesterday. 
Many Hong Kong residents said the station would make their trips to Shenzhen much more convenient, as well. 
“Every year when I go to my hometown in Zhaoqing during holidays, there are crowds at the checkpoint. It often takes me a whole day to travel. However, I can now get to Futian in only 15 minutes and transfer to a Metro train to Futian’s bus station. I think more Hong Kong people like me will choose this way to go back to their hometown,” said Hong Kong man Chris Lam.
Many people expect more Hong Kong residents to move to Shenzhen after the rail opens, because of lower home prices, but Lam said he doesn’t have such a plan. 
“It would be much more convenient to travel, but I will still choose to live in Hong Kong. Although homes in Shenzhen are cheaper, other things in Shenzhen are more expensive,” Lam said.



Source: http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2013-07/24/content_2562036.htm


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## hkskyline

*High-speed rail links help to bolster regional development*
9 July 2013
South China Morning Post

Some people have argued that budget airlines are a better option than high-speed trains.

I agree that high-speed rail projects do not score well when considering profitability. But when it comes to transport infrastructure, you need to look at the wider perspective.

Governments endorse high-speed rail links because they seem to them to be a catalyst to regional development.

They offer a green option and help to reinvigorate deprived areas. Financial returns cannot be the prime concern as these projects are an investment nightmare. In most cases, capital costs cannot be fully recovered. Some even operate at a deficit, requiring government subsidies.

The High Speed 2 project in Britain is a good example. The amount it might make in ticket sales cannot recover the investment (construction and running costs). But the project will bring significant indirect benefits. They include the increase in land value, surge in employment, more taxation and other returns from a wealthier community. Bolstering regional development is the main purpose of building a high-speed railway.

Besides, express trains and budget airlines target different customer groups. The latter is aimed at budget or leisure travellers who are less concerned about comfort.

However, if given a choice, business travellers would opt for the high-speed rail link, because it allows them to work on the move. These trains will take them right to the centre of a city instead of an airport which may be located in a suburb or even further out of town.

The fierce opposition to the express rail link from Hong Kong to Guangzhou was more a reflection of the low vote of confidence in the government of Donald Tsang Yam-kuen which supported it, not to the idea of a railway.

Hong Kong's link to the country's high-speed rail network will be good for the city, given our important business ties to the mainland.

Perhaps the Hong Kong special administrative region government should give more regular and detailed updates of the cost of the project, as well as emphasise its economic benefits.

This will give Hong Kong citizens a clearer picture, and allow them to look at the pros and cons before they come to a conclusion for or against it. It is important for the administration to get public backing for this important infrastructure project.

I find it sad to see citizens opposing development proposals without understanding their true value.

Wilson Chan, Tin Shui Wai


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## hkskyline

6/2


Hong Kong - June 2013 (33) by stevekrans, on Flickr


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## hmmwv

I didn't realize the duck is half the size of a harbor ferry.


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## hkskyline

*Tunnel workers end strike *
The Standard
Tuesday, August 27, 2013





































A strike by 200 workers at Express Rail Link in Kwai Chung ended last night after nearly 14 hours when the contractor gave in to their demands.

The strike began at 7am yesterday against unreasonable pay deductions and working conditions, and was called off at 8.30pm after Leighton Contractors reached a consensus with the workers.

Leighton said the pay deductions would not be implemented, workers would no longer need to have their meals in the tunnel and they would be given a 30-minute break.

Workers agreed to resume work today.

The strike action was called after Leighton informed the workers, through a notice, that latecomers will have their salaries docked - half an hour's pay will be deducted for every five minutes of being late and one hour's pay will be deducted for 15 minutes of tardiness. 

Workers were also required to have their lunch in the tunnel, where "the temperature reaches 40 degrees Celsius and the air quality is very poor," said Chow Kin-shing, one of the workers at the site.

"The contractor is treating us like dogs, which is worse than slaves," he added. 

At first Leighton offered a pay rise of 5 to 10percent and canceled the late punishment, but workers had to remain in the tunnel for 12 hours.

They immediately rejected this. 

Mak Tak-ching, organizing secretary of the Construction Site Workers General Union, said that Leighton agreed to the workers' demands. 

A worker, Chin Man-fung, said an agreement was reached because the employer agreed to improve the air quality inside the Tse Uk Tsuen to Shek Yam tunnel section of the MTR project.

An MTR spokesman said the strike would not affect the progress of the project and it remains on track to be completed in 2015.

Meanwhile, the Labour Department said it is pleased that the strike has been resolved but will continue to follow the situation.


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## FM 2258

^^

I would immediately reject those stipulations as well. Give them a pay raise and more breaks so more quality work could be done. Don't want a bunch of angry people working on a high profile project.


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## Silly_Walks

Having to remain in a tunnel for 12 hours straight... who came up with that brilliant idea?


Totally understandable they went on strike, and for very modest demands even.


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## hmmwv

Requiring workers take lunch inside tunnel is completely unacceptable, it shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes to get out of the tunnel. OTOH the pay deduction for tardiness is not unreasonable, shift work depends on people showing up on time, tardiness should be punished to ensure order at the work site.


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## silent_dragon

Thats very cruel. Lunch inside a 40C tunnel. Plus no fresh air.


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## xeror

hmmwv said:


> Requiring workers take lunch inside tunnel is completely unacceptable, it shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes to get out of the tunnel. OTOH the pay deduction for tardiness is not unreasonable, shift work depends on people showing up on time, tardiness should be punished to ensure order at the work site.


According to a local newspaper, those pay deduction rules imposed by the contractors are unlawful in Hong Kong. That may explain why they cancel them so quickly once those rules exposed to public.


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## hkskyline

9/8


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## AverageJoe

26 Sep 2013


----------



## DoubleU

Cracks spark concern over railway safety









Cracks can be seen in a platform at the bottom of a pier along the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed railway in a photo taken last week. Media reports have recently said crevices large enough to hold an adult have appeared at the bottom of three piers on a section of the express rail line in Shenzhen. Railway authorities responded by saying that the temporary platforms are not weight-bearing parts of the piers and will be dismantled after construction of the piers is finished. Service on the 102-km high-speed railway between Shenzhen and Guangzhou started in 2011, while the section between Shenzhen and Hong Kong is scheduled to open in 2015. China News Service 



Source: http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2013-10/23/content_2659624.htm


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## kunming tiger

hmmwv said:


> This station is going to be crowded with mainland shoppers considering its proximity with Harbour City. I wonder if the customs will be inside the station, or do passengers clear immigration at the boarder? If the former I wonder if they can setup duty free shops inside the station much like in an airport.


 They were looking into the possibility of connecting Harbor city and the West Kowloon via underground waklways or an elevated walkway along Canton Rd. Does anyone have an update on that? It would seem to be beneficial .


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## hkskyline

A closer alternative will be Elements, which hosts the same range of luxury shops as the Harbour City area. It is right next to the HSR station and has been open for a few years already.


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## hkskyline

11/8


1DSC_0394 by erinaguenther, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*First high-speed train for HK assembled*
8 November 2013
Copyright 2013 China Daily Information Company. All Rights Reserved.

A train for Hong Kong's first high-speed rail rolled off the assembly line on Nov 7 in East China's coastal city of Qingdao, Shandong province.

Manufactured by Sifang Co Ltd, a subsidiary of China South Locomotive and Rolling Stock Industry Corporation, the train is based on CSR's CRH380A model and customized according to the requirements of Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway.

CSR and MTR signed a deal for nine high-speed trains in March 2012. The other eight trains will be delivered by the end of 2014.

Each train has eight compartments and can run at a speed of 350 kph, according to Tao Guidong, senior engineer with CSR.

The rail line, which is expected to enter service in 2015, will link Hong Kong and Guangzhou, capital of south China's Guangdong Province, shortening the travel time to less than 48 minutes, Tao said.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> *First high-speed train for HK assembled*
> 8 November 2013
> Copyright 2013 China Daily Information Company. All Rights Reserved.
> 
> Each train has eight compartments and can run at a speed of 350 kph, according to Tao Guidong, senior engineer with CSR.
> 
> The rail line, which is expected to enter service in 2015, will link Hong Kong and Guangzhou, capital of south China's Guangdong Province, shortening the travel time to less than 48 minutes, Tao said.


How many cars does each train have?
And how many compartments go in one car?


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## hkskyline

12/7


West Kowloon by mickyj_photos, on Flickr


West Kowloon by mickyj_photos, on Flickr


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## kunming tiger

hkskyline said:


> A closer alternative will be Elements, which hosts the same range of luxury shops as the Harbour City area. It is right next to the HSR station and has been open for a few years already.


 The government has already done a feasibilty plan on connecting Tsim Sha Shui to the HSR station via underground walkway through the China Terminal building. However it would have to wait until the part of the cultural center between those two areas is completed in 2015. The value of Harbor city would increase and it would be an alternative way for the streams of visitors from the terminal to exit the area, the same thinking is behind the proposed underground walkway to Nathan RD from Austin MTR to Jordan MTR. Ten thousand commuters can't be put out onto the surrounding streets at ground level for obvious reasons. 

The issue is whether the government has approved the masterplan for the walkway system and the proposed underground shopping area under the WKCD which would effectively connect the HSR, two MTRs, WKCD and Harbor City? 

Planned retail space is for the anticipated extra demand generated by incoming HSR arrivals from the Mainland whereby they could disembark then walk into the shopping district directly.


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## hkskyline

11/18


Level 101 by l plater, on Flickr


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## dimlys1994

hkskyline said:


> 1
> 
> 
> Level 101 by l plater, on Flickr


What's development is above Austin station?


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## saiho

dimlys1994 said:


> What's development is above Austin station?


Its called "The Austin"


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## DoubleU

*Futian aiming for high-speed rail hub in ’14*

SEHNZHEN residents likely will be able to access high-speed trains to Guangzhou in downtown Futian District by the end of 2014, after the city opens a massive underground station that will serve five Metro lines and the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong High-Speed Railway, Shenzhen Special Zone Daily reported yesterday. 
Construction of 37 kilometers of the railway’s 48-kilometer Shenzhen section has been completed, rail authorities said, and construction of the section between Shenzhen and West Kowloon in Hong Kong is expected to be completed by the end of 2015. 
The comprehensive transportation hub located under Yitian Road in the Futian CBD has a planned construction area equivalent to 192 soccer fields and could be the biggest of its kind in Asia when completed. It will have three underground stories, with the first story a transfer hall, the second for Metro operation and the third for the high-speed rail line. 
Shenzhen currently has 178 kilometers of rail transportation in operation, ranking fourth among Chinese cities. 
...


Source: http://szdaily.sznews.com/html/2013-12/19/content_2725285.htm


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## Palali

So Hong King will be connected high speed with Shenzen ?


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## Cosmicbliss

Thus the Beijing HK journey would take how long?


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## dimlys1994

Palali said:


> So Hong King will be connected high speed with Shenzen ?


Yes, via Futian and Shenzhen North stations


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## chornedsnorkack

Cosmicbliss said:


> Thus the Beijing HK journey would take how long?


Unknown.

It is now possible to travel from Beijing to Guangzhou in 7:59. G79 makes 4 intermediate stops (Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou, Wuhan, Changsha).
It also is now possible to reach Shenzhen North 32 minutes after Guangzhou South. G77 travels Wuhan-Guangzhou with a single stop (Changsha) - then leaves Guangzhou South 3 minutes after arrival, and arrives in Shenzhen North 29 minutes after leaving Guangzhou.
It should be possible to travel Beijing to Shenzhen North in 8:31.

Should be but is not.
The only G train Beijing-Shenzhen takes 10:16. G71 is the slowest G train Beijing-Guangzhou, taking 9:38 rather than 7:59, and making 14 stops rather than 4. Then it stops in Guangzhou for 9 minutes before proceeding to Shenzhen.

So how many trains shall run Beijing-Hong Kong, and what shall the fastest time be?


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## hkskyline

*MTR condemned over rail works accidents *
4 January 2014
South China Morning Post 

Lawmakers have hit out at the MTR Corporation after a dramatic increase in the number of accidents during the construction of the high-speed railway to Guangzhou, including the deaths of two workers.

Some 100 accidents were reported on the line between May and November last year, two of them fatal. By contrast, between the start of construction in 2010 and April last year there were 147 accidents, of which one was fatal.

Members of the Legislative Council’s subcommittee on railways asked whether the rush to complete the controversial rail line had led to the increase.

“Why was there a sharp rise in accidents?” asked subcommittee chairman Michael Tien Puk-sun. “Was it because of the rush to meet deadline or not having enough trained workers?”

Maggie So Man-kit, MTR’s deputy general manager for projects and property, said the rise in accidents reflected the amount of work being done. She said the construction was now entering a phase where work had to be done simultaneously at multiple locations.

“The number of accidents has gone up, but the average accident rate stays the same,” So said.

The line has proved controversial for its HK$66.9 billion cost – making it the most expensive railway by length of track in the world – and the destruction of a village in Yuen Long to make way for a depot.

The head of the Association for the Rights of Industrial Accident Victims, Chan Kam-hong, also condemned the MTR for paying “lip-service” to safety at the launch of a campaign yesterday. The group is urging construction workers to anonymously report unsafe conditions.


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## spin_dive

Can't wait for this to open. Taking the MTR intercity to Shanghai was nice but takes way too long.


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## hkskyline

*China’s urban delta force*
20 March 2014
Business Standard

With work on the Pearl River Delta bridge in full swing, China’s grand plan to turn the region into a one-hour living zone is on course

While China’s idea of a tunnel across the Taiwan Strait remains a dream, a bridge across the Pearl River Delta to connect Hong Kong with Guangzhou through Macau and Zhuhai will soon emerge into reality. Work is well on schedule and hopefully by the end of 2016, travellers from one side of the delta will be able to drive over to the other in just about 45 minutes, instead of four hours that it now takes to go by roads skirting the top of the delta. There are, of course, steamers and ferries, but it’s not the same thing as direct driving, with time and circumstances under one’s control.

First bred in the mind of Hong Kong tycoon Gordon Wu, which many had once thought was a crazy idea, the governments of Hong Kong, Macau, and China have now joined in earnest and are sharing the $9 billion cost of the 42-km sea link. It will actually consist of a six-lane network of bridges and a 6.7-km stretch of undersea tunnel. Two artificial islands will support the cross-over, one off Gongbei in Zhuhai and the other west of the boundary of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR).

In fact, China is so interested in bridging the delta that it’s contemplating another link to bring Shenzhen, a bustling special economic zone across the border from Hong Kong, and Zhuhai, also marked as a special economic zone but hasn’t yet quite started to bloom, closer together. Zhuhai is still an affordable and relatively under-populated (1.8 million) location, and businesses from Shenzhen, many of which are from Hong Kong, are looking across the delta as they struggle with high land and labour costs. They just need a quick cross-over.

At 51 km, the new link will be longer than the Hong Kong-Macau-Zhuhai connection and will take off from some 20 miles north of the Hong Kong border to reach the city of Zhongshan, just next to Zhuhai. It’s going to cost around $5 billion and is scheduled for completion by 2021.

All this is part of China’s grand design to turn the Pearl River Delta into the world’s largest mega-city, and a grander one to make it a one-hour living zone. It means all the nine delta cities – Shenzhen, Dongguan and Huizhou in the east; Zhuhai, Zhongshan and Jiangmen in the west; and Guangzhou, Foshan and Zhaoqing in the centre – will be within an hour’s distance of one another. So will be Hong Kong, which retains a separate identity but plays an important economic role in the development of the delta. With a population of more than 60 million, the delta region accounts for nearly 30 per cent of China’s exports. Connectivity within the region is, therefore, absolutely essential and more than 150 major projects to improve its infrastructure, especially in the areas of transport, water, energy supply, and telecommunications are underway.

A blueprint made public in 2008 contemplates a colossal transport network of more than 4,000 km of roads, tunnels, bridges, and intra- and inter-city rapid transits to tie up the entire area, so that residents may live in one city and go to work in another within an hour or even less. Hong Kong travellers can similarly “beep” around the delta, in fact to 16 cities around it, using their Hong Kong-specific Octopus smart cards. *Besides, Hong Kong on its part is building a 140-km express rail link, with its terminus in West Kowloon, to further enhance connectivity with its north and west, When it becomes fully operational in 2015, travel time between Hong Kong and Guangzhou will be reduced to a mere 45 minutes.

Connectivity is becoming so crucial an issue for Hong Kong business circles that its government is even toying with a proposal to open up part of its northern border buffer zone and turn it into a commercial district with an eye on the delta. Some Hongkongites don’t like the idea for political reasons but the government thinks it’s not such a bad one since Hong Kong is already closely knit with South China anyway and there’s no way the SAR can prosper on its own any more.

The integrated Pearl River mega-city will create a 16,000 sq mile urban area that’s nearly 26 times larger than Greater London. Without an efficient urban connectivity, such an entity simply can’t work. What China is seeking to do is set a standard of urban mobility for current and future mega-cities that are coming to existence, by the sheer force of urbanisation, in Beijing, Shanghai, and other places in China and around Asia. Asian town planners have yet to wake up to the problem yet. Even the US, where Greater Los Angeles roughly parallels the Pearl River mega-city in geographical terms, hasn’t quite got its connectivity question fully sorted out.*


----------



## kunming tiger

I take it that the Zhong Shan to Shen Zhen bridge is a done deal no longer a proposal? What's the estimated start of construction?


----------



## hkskyline

kunming tiger said:


> I take it that the Zhong Shan to Shen Zhen bridge is a done deal no longer a proposal? What's the estimated start of construction?


http://www.scmp.com/news/china/arti...pearl-river-delta-shenzhen-zhongshan-approved


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...lties-delay-express-rail-link-completion.html
> 
> *Tunnelling difficulties delay Express Rail Link completion*
> 15 Apr 2014
> 
> CHINA: The expected completion date for the 26 km Hong Kong section of the Hong Kong - Shenzhen - Guangzhou Express Rail Link has been put back to 2016 and the opening to 2017 as a result of unforeseen tunnelling difficulties, MTR Corp announced on April 15.
> 
> During a severe rainstorm on March 30 a section of partly completed tunnel connecting Tsat Sing Kong and Tai Kong Po was flooded after soil and debris blocked the surface drains. This damaged the tunnel boring machine, which now requires substantial repairs including replacement of its electronic components. Studies are now being undertaken to determine whether an alternative method should be used to complete the tunnel, and the construction programme is expected to be delayed by up to nine months.
> 
> There are two other locations of concern, according to MTR Corp. At the site of the West Kowloon Terminus the rock strata is higher than expected, requiring more time to excavate. Progress has also been hindered by boulders and uncharted utilities.
> 
> The second critical challenge involves complex geology at the cross-boundary section of the tunnels. This passes under protected wetlands and marble caverns are known to be present, so boring has to proceed with extreme care.
> 
> ‘The Express Rail Link project is a very large undertaking and immensely complex’, said Projects Director TC Chew. ‘Since construction began, we have been presented with numerous challenges which have put pressure on our schedule. We have been very focused on catching up through fine-tuning designs and adjusting the construction works but this latest situation with the TBM makes it clear that completion of the project by 2015 is not achievable.’


----------



## hkskyline

Seems some of the reasons are well-known already and not related to that recent storm. Perhaps they wanted to bundle it to blame the weather and soften the impact?


----------



## hkskyline

*Lawmakers blast rail project delay*
16 April 2014
South China Morning Post





































Hong Kong’s transport minister and the MTR Corporation are facing calls to come clean about the reasons for the delay in building the multibillion-dollar high-speed railway to the border, and about how much extra it might cost the taxpayer.

Lawmakers accused Professor Anthony Cheung Bing-leung, the secretary for transport and housing, of being irresponsible for expressing surprise at news of the delay, as he is supposedly briefed regularly on the project’s progress.

Cheung yesterday declined to reveal how much more the project could cost. Nor would he say whether the government would hold the MTR responsible for the delay.

At a news conference yesterday, MTR officials also sidestepped questions over when the corporation had reported the delay to the government.

Michael Tien Puk-sun, a lawmaker for the New People’s Party, accused Cheung of lax monitoring.

“Last year, he told us it was OK but now he expresses surprise. That means he did not cross check what the MTR Corp told him,” Tien said.

Democrat Wu Chi-wai urged Cheung to “come clean”.

“I was surprised that he expressed surprise. As the principal official in charge of transport it is his job to monitor the MTRC to ensure the project is delivered on time.”

Albert Lai Kwong-tak, of the lobby group Professional Commons, has been a vocal opponent of the project. He questioned whether there could be a “cover-up” by officials, saying: “There had been media reports a year ago that MTR Corp had warned in some internal papers that the project could be delayed for a year or longer. But only now did it make the delay public.”

The Hong Kong section of the high-speed line was one of the 10 major infrastructure projects announced in 2008 to boost the economy. It is about 26 kilometres long, and runs underground from the border at Huanggang to its West Kowloon terminus.

In May last year, as news reports cited MTR papers warning of the project’s possible delay, officials maintained the project could still be completed on time.

A progress report submitted to the legislature in November said 55 per cent of the tunnelling work, including both drill-and-blast operations and excavation with boring machines, had been completed. It also said 60 per cent of excavation works for the terminus had been completed.

Professor Charles Ng Wang-wai, of Hong Kong University of Science and Technology’s department of civil and environmental engineering, was more sympathetic, describing the project as a “world-class challenge”.

Citing the building of the West Kowloon terminus, Ng said: “We are talking about excavating some 30 metres deep. That is like … a 10-storey building.”


----------



## hkskyline

*Call for authorities to take over MTRC dig *
22 April 2014
The Standard

A think-tank is urging the government to take over archaeological excavations after thousands of ancient relics were found along the MTR Corp's planned route in Kowloon City.

It also demanded the MTRC explain whether the construction of the Sha Tin to Central Link will be delayed.

Most of the relics date back to more than 1,000 years.

Engineer Albert Lai Kwong-tak, the convener of Professional Commons, a public policy think-tank, said: ``The discovery is definitely important to Hong Kong and we think the authorities should take over from the MTR.''

Lai said experts from the community should be allowed to take part in the excavation to enhance transparency.

But engineering-sector lawmaker Lo Wai-kwok said it is crucial for the MTR to excavate well at this stage, and he believes that Hongkongers will accept the delay of the rail link.

One of the relics, a square-shaped well from the Song dynasty (960 to 1279), was found near one of Hong Kong's most important monuments, Sung Wong Toi, a stone with carvings indicating it once sheltered two 13th- century emperors.

The Sha Tin to Central Link is scheduled to come into service in 2018.

A spokesman for the Transport and Housing Bureau said it had told the MTRC and its contractors to closely monitor the progress of the rail link.

Close to 240 relics were listed, including eight stone buildings and seven others, 151 ditches, four ponds and pits, five wells and 16 burial points.


----------



## hkskyline

*Engineer offers explosive solution to railway woes *
21 April 2014
South China Morning Post

Raymond Chan says MTR Corporation could blast tunnels after boring machine breaks

Explosives could be used to excavate tunnels for the high-speed rail link to Guangzhou if a boring machine cannot be repaired soon, a leading engineer says.

But Institution of Engineers president Raymond Chan Kin-sek also questioned why the MTR Corporation had not protected the machine from water damage in last month’s storms. Damage to the machine was cited as a key factor when a two-year delay to the controversial HK$67 billion project high-speed rail project was announced last week.

“Why was [the boring machine] not properly protected from the rain? It is something that should be looked into … If it cannot be repaired, other methods such as the use of explosives can be considered,” said Chan, a former head of the government’s Geotechnical Engineering Office.

But the engineer told RTHK’s City Forum that blasting would be time-consuming in itself.

“The components [to repair] the machine need to be sent to Hong Kong as soon as possible. As far as I know, components for this big machine cannot be found in Hong Kong,” he said. “I heard the electric motors were damaged because sand and mud got inside. If they need to be replaced it will take quite a long time.”

The MTR Corporation and the government pushed the finishing date for the line back to 2016 from next year and said services would not start until 2017. The announcement has caused controversy, not least because it was presented as a “surprise” and the result of “unforeseen difficulties”, despite the fact reports of a likely delay emerged as long ago as May last year. Besides the damage to the machines, tougher-than-expected geological conditions at the West Kowloon terminus were also cited.

Gary Fan Kwok-wai, deputy chairman of the Legislative Council’s transport panel, asked why the difficulties had cropped up, given that lawmakers gave the MTR HK$2.8 billion in 2008 for a survey that was supposed to identify project challenges.

Albert Lai Kwong-tak, chairman of the think tank Professional Commons, said a rainstorm in May last year was much more serious than the one last month. “There are nine such machines in Hong Kong at present. How come only the one in the high-speed rail project was damaged? And the rainstorm was much more severe last year. Why wasn’t the machine damaged at that time?” Lai said.


----------



## ad50939

So it is now confirmed that the first senior management member responsible for the high (or not so high) speed rail project in MTR "is retired" !


----------



## skyridgeline

> Dr Greg Wong Chak-yan, a former president of the Institution of Engineers, said that because of the size of the range, surveying only the rim posed the risk of misjudging conditions.
> 
> "The MTR lacks some luck in this," he said, adding that the question now was whether it had done its best to get access to the golf range for its surveys.
> 
> The MTR said it would not comment as it was preparing reports for a Legislative Council meeting on the issue on Monday.
> 
> *Lawmakers who visited the terminus this week were told there had probably been no survey of the golf-range area as the MTR was "not granted access*".


- scmp.com Thursday, 01 May, 2014, 4:41am



scmp.com










tunneltalk.com


----------



## ad50939

skyridgeline said:


> - scmp.com Thursday, 01 May, 2014, 4:41am
> 
> scmp.com


Possibly just another stupid excuse for bad project planning and implementation!

I am sure that a fairly accurate ground profile could have been obtained by drilling inclined holes from the perimeter of the golf court.


----------



## hkskyline

By *fever04* from dcfever :


----------



## hkskyline

*Hong Kong Rail Chief Jay Walder to Step Down
Move Comes as MTR Corp. Faces Criticism Over Mainland Rail Link*
8 May 2014
The Wall Street Journal 

HONG KONG—Hong Kong's rail operator MTR Corp. said its chief executive, American Jay Walder, will step down after his contract expires in August next year.

The announcement comes as the railway company faces harsh scrutiny from local lawmakers and the media over delays and cost overruns involving a high-speed express rail project linking the former British colony with mainland China.	

MTR Chairman Raymond Ch'ien told reporters on Thursday that Mr. Walder had reached an agreement with the company and directors last August that he wouldn't renew his contract after it expires in August 2015.

Mr. Walder took over as head of MTR in January 2012 after leading New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authority for two years.

Mr. Ch'ien said Mr. Walder's decision had nothing to do with the recent controversies over the high-speed railway delays, which have already led to the resignations of the company's project director and the top engineer overseeing the express rail terminus, a key part of the multibillion-dollar project.

MTR said in mid-April that the opening the express rail line could be delayed for two years to 2017 because of recent weather-related issues, and problems with the groundwork at the express rail terminus that hampered construction progress.

However, some lawmakers and the media have accused the company, which is 77%-owned by the city's government, of withholding information and for not making public the delays much earlier.

MTR executives have apologized for the delays and have said the company would work to meet the new completion target.

The controversy over construction delays has hurt MTR's strong global reputation of running a subway system with a 99.9% on-time rate. The company stands apart from its rivals because it has been constantly profitable without direct government support.

MTR hired Mr. Walder to head Hong Kong's sole rail transit system when the company was aggressively expanding its rail footprint outside the city, particularly in mainland China and Europe.

Mr. Walder was paid about $1.56 million in salary and bonus in 2012, more than four times his $350,000 annual paycheck at New York's MTA. He couldn't be reached for comment on Thursday.


----------



## hkskyline

*Motion to probe rail delay voted down*
12 June 2014
South China Morning Post

The Legislative Council voted down a motion by lawmaker Gary Fan Kwok-wai seeking to invoke its special powers to investigate a delay to the Hong Kong-Guangzhou high-speed rail line. Fan wanted to find out if the MTR and the government hid key facts from the public before the delay was revealed in April, but the transport minister said a Legco inquiry might only cause further delays.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/technology/single-view/view/flushing-out-faster.html
> 
> *Flushing out faster*
> 24 Jun 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHINA: Smith Brothers & Webb is to install its Britannia automated emptying system for controlled-emission train toilets at the future Shek Kong high speed train depot on Hong Kong’s Express Rail Link.
> 
> This will be able to evacuate 800 l of effluent in 8 sec, allowing a single operative to clean the tanks on a 12-car high speed train in 10 min. There will be three installations at the depot, with a fourth as back-up.
> 
> ‘The speed and ease of use of the new Britannia CET system makes it particularly attractive for high speed trains’, said Smith Brothers & Webb Chairman Harvey Alexander.
> 
> ‘With more trains now running at night there is less time available for maintenance. Consequently we have already received a number of enquiries from train operators who are moving toward more of a 24 h a day service. Operators want swift turnarounds of trains, and this fully-automated Britannia CET certainly delivers - it can empty three times as many tanks as a conventional model in the same time.’


----------



## FM 2258

hkskyline said:


> *Motion to probe rail delay voted down*
> 12 June 2014
> South China Morning Post
> 
> The Legislative Council voted down a motion by lawmaker Gary Fan Kwok-wai seeking to invoke its special powers to investigate a delay to the Hong Kong-Guangzhou high-speed rail line. Fan wanted to find out if the MTR and the government hid key facts from the public before the delay was revealed in April, but the transport minister said a Legco inquiry might only cause further delays.


I would say let them focus on fixing the problem. After it's running smoothly this controversy won't matter.


----------



## hkskyline

*Lawmakers to probe rail link delay*
26 June 2014
The Standard

The Legislative Council has agreed to set up a select committee to look into the two-year delay of the construction of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link.

The decision was taken after 23 pan- democrats filed a joint petition to demand an in-depth investigation. But the committee will not have the power to summon witnesses.

Democratic Party lawmaker Wu Chi-wai said the committee will rely on information provided by the MTR Corp to get to the bottom of the issue and find out who should be held responsible.

Wu expects the probe to last at least six months. He does not think the committee's work will overlap with other investigations.

The government had earlier failed to announce any delay in completing the Hong Kong section of the link.

Later the government and rail operator revealed that officials had been informed of a possible delay last year but this had not been made public, Wu said.

``Also, there were apparent loopholes in the way relevant government departments monitored the construction progress as well as the MTRC's internal management so it is necessary for Legco to follow up the incident.''

Wu said since the government has failed to tell the public if the fault lies with it or with the railway it is necessary to find out who should be held responsible should the final costs go overboard.

Though none of the pro-Beijing lawmakers supported the petition, Legco president Jasper Tsang Yok-sing passed the request to establish the select committee as the number of members supporting the petition exceeded that required by the rules of procedure.

The government-controlled MTRC announced two months ago that the HK$67 billion high-speed railway project would be delayed by at least two years.

It also said that operations would not commence until 2017.

The news sparked a massive public outcry and raised concerns that the government and railway company had colluded to cover up the delay.


----------



## hkskyline

*Deep cracks found in rail terminus ceiling*
12 July 2014
South China Morning Post	

MTR Corporation insists the fissures are the result of ‘normal shrinkage effects’; construction experts think the problem may be more serious

Deep cracks have been found in concrete ceilings at the West Kowloon high-speed rail terminus, raising more questions about the already delayed construction project.

The MTR Corporation insisted that the cracks did not affect the structural safety of the HK$67 billion railway project, but construction specialists called for immediate remedies.

The cracks were found in the ceiling of basement level three – the plant room – of the southern section of the terminus.

Beneath the level are rail platforms and above is a car park.

Photographs of the cracks seen by the South China Morning Post show about a dozen long cracks on the concrete slab ceiling of the basement. There are also metal structures erected to support the ceiling.

A person who provided the pictures said water had seeped through the cracks in the one-metre-thick slabs during heavy rain in late May and delayed other essential installations at the level.

“The cracks found in the slabs are obviously a failure in engineering standards,” the person said.

He said the contractor could have overlooked some procedures, such as concrete curing, as it rushed the project.

He described the cracks as a “safety issue” that could only be addressed by removing the cracked slabs, but he was worried the problems would be covered up.

In response to inquiries, a spokeswoman for the MTR insisted the cracks were the result of “normal shrinkage effects”. She refused to clarify the scale and locations of the cracks. She said only that cracks were discovered in “places” from basement one to two.

“Further investigation concluded that these are shrinkage effects, which are not uncommon in concrete construction and do not affect the structural safety,’’ she said.

She said the contractor, a joint venture of Liang O’Rourke, Hsing Chong and Paul Y that was awarded the HK$3.3 billion contract in 2010, had been asked to handle the cracks with injections.

The rail operator’s ability to manage the project was called into question in April when it was disclosed that its opening would be delayed by two years to 2017.

The delay is now the subject of an independent investigation initiated by the government.

Chan Chi-ming, head of construction at the Institute of Vocational Education, rejected the MTR’s explanation that the cracks were the result of shrinkage.

He said shrinkage would lead only to a web of surface cracks but the cracks in the basement, as shown in the photographs, seemed to have cut vertically across the slabs.

Chan also said the cracks appeared to have a directional pattern, suggesting they might not be sporadic but systematic.

The cracks could leave the building owner a big burden of maintenance in the long term, although they might not pose immediate structural safety threats, he warned.

Chan suspected that the cracks were caused by uneven work site subsidence that created larger-than-expected tension on the concrete. He called on the MTR to release more information about the cracks.

“They should have made some provisions about the cracks but apparently the cracks turned out to be worse than expected. Cracks like this should not appear in a well-managed construction project,” he said.

Chan also said the photographs indicated the cracks had been filled with injections.

Shown the pictures of the cracks, veteran structural engineer Greg Wong Chak-yan described the defects as “not good” and called for immediate remedies.

“The cracks are not ignorable defects. Cracks of such width and depth require remedial measures,” he said.

Still, he said that, while such cracks were undesirable, they “do occur in a few places” in a project of great size due to defective concrete or a poor pouring process. “As long as the defect does not occur in a significant percentage of the works, it is not alarming,” he said.

Wong said if the cracks were found at a similar location in each basement level, the problems could be related to design or structural defects like an insufficient number of steel reinforcing bars.

Another veteran engineer who was an adviser to the express rail project said that while cracks were inevitable in concrete structures, he could not ascertain if these had anything to do with rushing to meet deadlines.

He disagreed that site subsidence could be a cause, as the building was not erected on top of soft soil but on hard granite rock.

He said cracks wider than 0.2 millimetres would require remedies such as injecting chemicals into the concrete to fill the pores inside it.

“Frankly, the construction quality of the railway is not that bad. It sounds like a problem because it receives so much attention,” he said.


----------



## hkskyline

* MTR saga highlights governance and accountability issues*
South China Morning Post
18 July 2014

Events at the MTR are becoming increasingly curious. In May, shortly after we were told about the delay to the cross border express rail project, it was announced that MTR CEO Jay Walder would not renew his contract, but MTR chairman Raymond Chien Kuo-fung said the decision was made last year and was not related to Walder's handling of the express rail project.

At Wednesday's meeting when the MTR announced the findings of its internal enquiry it was also revealed that Walder would be leaving next month and Chien again added the phoney assurance that his departure had nothing to do with the report. Clearly Walder's departure has everything to do with the report. Wednesday's announcement was an exercise in damage limitation.

First the timing of the meeting was not insignificant, coming a few days after the Legislative Council session which meant the government and the MTR weren't subject to critical headline grabbing blasts from that direction. Blame was restricted to the two figures that had already been singled out, Walder and project director Chew Tai-chong. The hope is that by making Walder the principal fall guy, this will deflect attention from the Secretary for Housing and Transport, Professor Anthony Cheung Bing-leung, and Walder presumably will be well paid to do so. Cheung does not come out of this affair with any distinction.

When the delay to the cross border express was announced on Tuesday, April 15, his initial reaction was, "I was totally caught by surprise," adding that he had only heard of the delay a few days earlier. But documents were subsequently leaked showing that his bureau was aware of the delays in November, and exposed Cheung for being, shall we say, conservative with the truth.

However, the government does not want another high-profile departure from its ranks so is hanging on to him. But clearly the government's oversight for the project has been abject and even when it did learn about the delays it chose to keep quiet. This, as our colleague Jake van der Kamp has noted, raises governance questions since it is a publicly listed company and is supposed to announce sensitive information to the stock exchange and thus to the holders of its stock. This matter appears to have been brushed under the carpet. Clearly the MTR has been overstretched and has taken on too many projects at once.

It would be interesting to know its response when the government first discussed embarking on the high speed rail project. The Hong Kong government was directed to build it by the central government, but who determined the completion deadline - the government or the railway? How should minority shareholders feel about having politically defined projects thrust on the company? The MTR has become a political football ever since its partial privatisation in October 2000.

The then financial secretary, Donald Tsang Yam-kuen was looking to realise HK$30 billion from the sale of part of its stake in two tranches, in order to fill a gaping budget deficit of about HK$40 billion. In any event, one tranche was sold for HK$10 billion. The merger with the Kowloon Canton Railway in 2006 was made for political rather than economic reasons.

The upshot is that the MTR now is neither fish nor fowl. Despite being a listed company it doesn't have the freedom to operate in the best interests of its shareholders. It is neither accountable to its shareholders, and because it has a board that is largely appointed by the government, it doesn't - as events have shown - appear to have a handle on what is happening within the company.


----------



## khoojyh

This project is challenging by putting it at highly crowded actively function built up area, mostly underground adding difficulty into project. Once complete, it would be engineering marvellous and learning model for other city wish for the same development. Good luck HK.


----------



## :jax:

FM 2258 said:


> Curious, why wouldn't this link be popular among Hong Kong residents? 12 minutes to Futian seems like a dream compared to other options.


I don't think a train ride to Futian would make a big difference, you have to get to the West Kowloon station as well, and the inconvenience is the border crossing, not the train ride (though a single train ride beats two, of course).

It would make a bigger difference going to Shenzhen North, Dongguan, and Guangzhou though. Guangzhou (Guangzhou South anyway) would be in comparable distance to Shenzhen.


----------



## hkskyline

*Lawmakers clash over high-speed-rail inquiry *
22 October 2014
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Pro-establishment and pan-democratic lawmakers yesterday clashed over the terms of reference for a committee that will investigate a two-year delay in the completion of a high-speed railway to Guangzhou.

News that the HK$67 billion project would not open until 2017, instead of next year, sparked anger earlier this year, amid concerns the public had been kept in the dark over the slow progress of the project.

The Legislative Council formed the select committee in June after pan-democrats were thwarted in their efforts to invoke special powers, including summoning witnesses and demanding official documents, to look into the delay.

The 13-member committee will examine whether there has been any cover-up.

Under the original wording, it was “to inquire into the background of and reasons for the delay of the construction of the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, as announced by the government and MTR Corporation Limited on April 15.”

NeoDemocrat Gary Fan Kwok-wai said the scope of the investigation would be greatly limited if a date was included in the terms of reference, as proposed by the Legco secretariat.

“You can mention April. But if you pin down this specific date, we are concerned we may be focusing our attention on that particular date and will be narrowing down the field,” Fan said.

“That would put the terms of reference of this select committee into a straitjacket.”

Several Beijing-loyalist lawmakers disagreed.

“My understanding is that the date referred to … is merely about the [announcement of] the delay,” Chan Kam-lam, of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong, said. “Even if you leave out the 15th, it would not make any specific difference.”

Legislators agreed to take the 15th out of the terms of reference.

The original terms of reference also referred to the performance and accountability of the government and MTR Corp over the delay and called for recommendations on how the administration could improve supervision and strengthen the governance of future railway projects.


----------



## hkskyline

Some older site photos from : http://www.expressraillink.hk/en/construction/progress-update.html

_Tsim Sha Tsui




























Nam Cheong




































_


----------



## Silver Swordsman

I practically live next too it now. Should I take pictures to share?


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## dimlys1994

Silver Swordsman said:


> I practically live next too it now. Should I take pictures to share?


Yes, of course. It would be interesting


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## YannSZ

Silver Swordsman said:


> I practically live next too it now. Should I take pictures to share?


As if someone on this forum would answer you "no, no, we're good..." :lol:


----------



## Silly_Walks

Silver Swordsman said:


> I practically live next too it now. Should I take pictures to share?


Yesssssss, hurry up


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## Silver Swordsman

I will take some pictures and post them here when I get the time. No worries.


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## hkskyline

*MTR given new prod on costs*
The Standard
Monday, November 03, 2014

Secretary for Transport and Housing Anthony Cheung Bing-leung has again asked the MTR Corp to revisit the HK$71.5 billion revised cost estimate of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link.

Cheung said: "Now there is concern about cost the MTR Corporation has supplied the government a figure of HK$71.5 billion as the revised completed cost for the project.

"The MTR Corporation still sticks to this figure and considers this figure realistic.

"But of course in light of the comments made by the two independent experts, the government is asking the MTR Corporation to once again revisit the figure. 

"At the end of the day, we have to come to a realistic figure for the purpose of revising the estimate."

Who will bear responsibility and legal obligation for any costs overrun will have to be determined according to the agreement between the government and the rail operator, he added.

Asked whether co-location where customs, immigration and quarantine facilities of both Hong Kong and the mainland lie within the terminal to facilitate smooth passage across the boundary - could be carried out in the West Kowloon Terminus, Cheung said details are still being discussed with mainland authorities and the public will be informed as soon as possible.


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## YannSZ

So we're reading everywhere that the HK-SZ section will be delayed. But what about the SZ-GZ section? Do we know when it is supposed to open? The construction work on the undeground FuTian Train station is going at great pace. Any updates? Anyone?


----------



## dimlys1994

Taken from MTR's Facebook page:



> https://www.facebook.com/mtrhk/posts/10154946642790151
> 
> Following the successful breakthrough of the tunnel between Mei Lai Road and Hoi Ting Road with the tunnel boring machine (TBM) “Seong-ngo” earlier, another TBM, “Zhao-jun -II” also successfully broke through the 2.35km Mai Po to Ngau Tam Mei tunnel section in November this year


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## FM 2258

^^

Does a read line mean the tunnel has been bored already? Also are tunnels completed in Shenzhen? Sadly I do not read Chinese so I'm lost as to what the map really represents. Thank you! :cheers:


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## urbanfan89

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Does a read line mean the tunnel has been bored already? Also are tunnels completed in Shenzhen? Sadly I do not read Chinese so I'm lost as to what the map really represents. Thank you! :cheers:


Orange line indicates sections where boring has been completed. The entire section within Shenzhen has already been bored.


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## 00Zy99

Is the Mong Kok West/XRL terminus going to be cut-and-cover? I don't see any orange lines down there, which seems rather odd.


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## YannSZ

I post my question again in case someone who knows the answer missed it: 
"So we're reading everywhere that the HK-SZ section will be delayed. But what about the SZ-GZ section? Do we know when it is supposed to open? The construction work on the undeground FuTian Train station is going at great pace. Any updates? Anyone?"


----------



## 00Zy99

YannSZ said:


> I post my question again in case someone who knows the answer missed it:
> "So we're reading everywhere that the HK-SZ section will be delayed. But what about the SZ-GZ section? Do we know when it is supposed to open? The construction work on the undeground FuTian Train station is going at great pace. Any updates? Anyone?"


Guangzhou to Shenzhen North is already open. Shenzhen North to Futian may open late December 2014 (after being delayed from July 2014).


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## YannSZ

00Zy99 said:


> Guangzhou to Shenzhen North is already open. Shenzhen North to Futian may open late December 2014 (after being delayed from July 2014).


Yes, I regularly take the train from Shenzhen North to Guangzhou south, 30 minutes trip! I live in Futian and it takes me more time to go from my apartment to Shenzhen North Train Station than from The train station to Guangzhou !
Can't wait to hop on the train directly from Futian. But in my opinion the train station is still far from being completed.


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## 00Zy99

Isn't using the HSR for such a short distance very expensive?

What are the fares (in USD or Euro, if its not too much trouble)?


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## chornedsnorkack

^^
Second class 74 yuan 5 jiao (US$ 12)
First class 99 yuan 5 jiao (US$ 17)
VIP seat 119 yuan 5 jiao (US$ 20)
Business class 199 yuan 5 jiao (US$ 33)


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## kunming tiger

Does this mean all the tunnelling has been completed? If not then how much is left?


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## hkskyline

*High-speed rail bill ‘likely to soar to HK$85 bn*
28 April 2015
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_ 

Lawmaker Michael Tien expects controversial scheme to come in some 30 per cent over budget – and courts may decide who pays

The cost of building the already delayed and over-budget high-speed rail link to Guangzhou is likely to surge to a whopping HK$85 billion – 30 per cent more than the original HK$65 billion budget, legislator and former railway boss Michael Tien Puk-sun warned yesterday.

The New People’s Party lawmaker, who chairs the Legislative Council’s transport panel, said he had learned the estimate through “various channels”, including contractors and MTR insiders. He said neither the MTR Corporation nor the government would want to bear the extra cost. That raised the possibility of the corporation and its majority shareholder, the government, ending up in court.

The MTR Corporation confirmed in its annual report earlier this month that the cost of the Express Rail Link could be adjusted “significantly” upward, without giving specific figures.

News broke in April last year that the link, originally scheduled to open this year, would not be ready until at least 2017. The railway operator said after that announcement that the construction cost would snowball to HK$71.5 billion, 10 per cent more than the initial HK$65 billion budget.

It had blamed difficult ground conditions and problems with tunnel boring for the delay.

The fiasco led to the early departure of MTR chief executive Jay Walder in August. The American was replaced by Lincoln Leong Kwok-kuen.

“The MTR is now using money to catch up and have the link open in 2017. If no extra money is used, the link may not open even in 2018,” said Tien, adding that contingency funding was running out.


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## FM 2258

^^

Why does Hong Kong have so much trouble with this one line while Mainland China seems to be building thousands of kilometers of high speed lines with ease? I guess from reading the articles I'm not getting it in a nutshell. I just wonder what Mainland China is doing differently, I thought similar techniques were going to be shared across the border.


----------



## stoneybee

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Why does Hong Kong have so much trouble with this one line while Mainland China seems to be building thousands of kilometers of high speed lines with ease? I guess from reading the articles I'm not getting it in a nutshell. I just wonder what Mainland China is doing differently, I thought similar techniques were going to be shared across the border.


Because they are going it "the western" way, so it comes with all the trappings of all western style public works, including army full of guess what "consultants" - a special breed of people that can tell you all the things that you need to do but can never do it themselves. :banana::banana::banana:


----------



## urbanfan89

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Why does Hong Kong have so much trouble with this one line while Mainland China seems to be building thousands of kilometers of high speed lines with ease? I guess from reading the articles I'm not getting it in a nutshell. I just wonder what Mainland China is doing differently, I thought similar techniques were going to be shared across the border.


I'm sure there are massive cost overruns on HSR construction in the mainland. They just aren't reported.


----------



## xjtyou

urbanfan89 said:


> I'm sure there are massive cost overruns on HSR construction in the mainland. They just aren't reported.


 Why are you so sure? I am curious. Any evidence?


----------



## foxmulder

urbanfan89 said:


> I'm sure there are massive cost overruns on HSR construction in the mainland. They just aren't reported.


I doubt that. the investment amounts and what has been done are in front of us. There may be overruns but cannot be significant.


----------



## urbanfan89

foxmulder said:


> I doubt that. the investment amounts and what has been done are in front of us. There may be overruns but cannot be significant.


The government can publish any number it wants as the investment amount. It can claim to have built the Beijing Shanghai High Speed Railway for 1 million Yuan if it wishes. It can claim the workers and suppliers worked tirelessly for the glorious Party without pay as if they were all Lei Feng. It doesn't make a difference.

But, the *fact* it reduced the operational speed, and reduced the specifications of certain lines, hints they recognize the cost overruns are large enough to compel face-losing cuts.


----------



## voyager221

Back to the same old story. There's no point comparing this project to the one in main land China.
Everyone has the freedom to believe what they see or hear, if everything from CCP controlled media is treated as propaganda, just a reminder, there's even more anti-China propaganda you can access.
Whatever's going to happen on this project, let it happen.


----------



## foxmulder

urbanfan89 said:


> The government can publish any number it wants as the investment amount. It can claim to have built the Beijing Shanghai High Speed Railway for 1 million Yuan if it wishes. It can claim the workers and suppliers worked tirelessly for the glorious Party without pay as if they were all Lei Feng. It doesn't make a difference.
> 
> But, the *fact* it reduced the operational speed, and reduced the specifications of certain lines, hints they recognize the cost overruns are large enough to compel face-losing cuts.



I see zero relationship with *investment on the construction* and *speed reduction*. The annual investment on rail infrastructure is about 75 billion dollar for the last 8 years. And the result is the largest high speed rail network on earth. It adds up for me. A larger spending cannot be hidden. 

I have always thought speed reduction is political. Still do.


----------



## hkskyline

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Why does Hong Kong have so much trouble with this one line while Mainland China seems to be building thousands of kilometers of high speed lines with ease? I guess from reading the articles I'm not getting it in a nutshell. I just wonder what Mainland China is doing differently, I thought similar techniques were going to be shared across the border.


The entire Hong Kong section is tunnelled and go through some densely-populated areas with skyscrapers and utilities that need to be carefully avoided. This is unlike in China, where lines run mostly above ground. It was especially tricky to bore beneath wetlands in the initial approach as well. Plus, you can't just clear out / expropriate entire neighbourhoods at ease in HK like in mainland China. So naturally things slow down because of due process.


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## Sopomon

For the same reason that you don't see this scrawled across buildings in Hong Kong


----------



## 00Zy99

What does that mean?


----------



## xjtyou

urbanfan89 said:


> The government can publish any number it wants as the investment amount. It can claim to have built the Beijing Shanghai High Speed Railway for 1 million Yuan if it wishes. It can claim the workers and suppliers worked tirelessly for the glorious Party without pay as if they were all Lei Feng. It doesn't make a difference.
> 
> But, the *fact* it reduced the operational speed, and reduced the specifications of certain lines, hints they recognize the cost overruns are large enough to compel face-losing cuts.


I can't see any logic correlation between the two points you presented above


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## Sopomon

---


----------



## Sopomon

00Zy99 said:


> What does that mean?


Destroy, tear down

Buildings have this written on them once the government decides they need to go


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## particlez

It's the Chinese character for "dismantle." Hong Kong has/does engage in tear downs, 'cept they're ignored by many of the accounts here. Look at current photos of Hong Kong, then look at photos from a generation or so ago. Most everything in Hong Kong has been torn down and replaced. The tide is just a bit slower now. Most of the torn-down buildings are built to a cost, and will inevitably be replaced with higher quality and higher densities. This occurs a LOT in fast-growing, developing world cities. In every situation, the loss of the buildings isn't nearly as important as re-housing their former inhabitants and small shopkeepers in better quality, convenient locations. The small number of historically significant HK buildings were located in Central--from an architectural perspective, those should NOT have been torn down. Unfortunately money trumps architectural concerns in just about every place.

The HK high speed rail is delayed because politically and financially powerful overlords derive fat profits from artificially limited and very expensive Hong Kong real estate. If a convenient rail connection is established with a much cheaper locale, those high land prices (and the profits of the banking/real estate nexus) could become precarious. It's the same reason why Singapore procrastinates with its HSR link to the Malaysian mainland. Go back a few decades, and the New York City politicians sabotaged the proposed New Jersey-New York subway lines. PATH service is alright, but doesn't have the same convenience/capacity as the MTA lines. It's a reason why Northern New Jersey looks the way it does. Go back even further, and the Parisian politicos insisted on a very small bore subway system--anything to avoid a connection with the cheaper/lower class burbs outside of Paris.

Yet politicians aren't dumb, and they won't freely admit to acting out of the oligarchs' selfish financial interests. Thus they cite fiscal concerns, or environmental concerns, etc. LOLZ. Public infrastructure construction by definition isn't going to generate profits, and if you think a public transit line is detrimental to the environment, you might as well believe in the Flat Earth Society. Why would the HSR line be continually singled out as environmentally destructive, when similar bore subways and bigger bore highways (with exhaust emissions) cut through the mountainous areas of Hong Kong? The folks who benefit from artificially limited public transit are the inner city landlords and their banker accomplices. Yet others still support policies that are harmful to themselves. False Consciousness? 

Go back to the 1990s, and the same Bullsh*t fiscal/environmental reasons were given for continually postponing the rail connections between urban Kowloon and Tuen Mun/Yuen Long. The real estate cartels bought residential/commercial development land on the cheap, and a decade later the rail line funding appeared and the environmental concerns disappeared.

Unfortunately you'll see more than a few forumers basing their editorials on their own prejudices, and ignoring actual history and empirical evidence.


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## Sopomon

Except it was held up mostly by bad ground conditions.
The human opposition for it came from the farmers a small village called Choi Yuen Tsuen that would have to be demolished, and residents of local apartments fearing vibration damage. In fact the protests argued your exact point reversed, that the Hong Kong locals' welfare was being ignored for a project that would benefit the economic elite.

However I am sure you are correct and that Grandma Lo from Choi Yuen Tsuen is actually a property tycoon in her spare time and is greedily protecting her assets from a project that _certainly_ benefits everyone in HK.

As an aside, of course buildings are replaced in Hong Kong, except there happens to be legal protections for those that currently own them thay don't exist in the mainland. Which is why they can't have chai painted on the front and be torn down a week later. 

It's almost like people are paid to write nonsense like that...


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## hkskyline

The fact that Choi Yuen Tsuen became such a big story and took a long time to settle is testament to Hong Kong's rule of law and everyone is subject to due process to safeguard their rights.


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## :jax:

Sometimes projects fail miserably, and serve as a warning never to take any project for granted. By the end of this year the Hallandsås Tunnel, a medium long rail tunnel between Gothenburg and Malmö, will finally open. It was a disaster. Planning started in 1985 (30 years ago), building in 1992 (23 years ago). It has taken four times as long, and become twelve times as expensive, as originally planned. 

The new Berlin airport is a current example.


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## luhai167

What it comes down to is that HK people don't want HSR as much. Otherwise a vocal minority would not drown out the "silent majority" if it actually want the thing to be built. There is due process and there is due process with essessive delays. Just look at the speed US has contructed its interstate highway system in the 20th century and its rail system in the 19 century. Its unhealth to hide behind democracy or rule of law when imcompentce is really to blame.

If HKer don't need HSR, why waste money and build it? They seems to be perfectly okay with flying, or take the metrol to shenzhen that is if they go to mainland at all.(do the average HKer go to mainland beyond shenzhen and dongguan? my friends in HK seems to only go to Japan and thailand) Personally for me, If i do go through HK (when cathay pacific has cheaper seats) i would just take the ferry at the airport in shenzhen and go to the whatever city i need to go, whether HK has HSR station or not is completely irrelivent. As for HSR make mainlander visiting HK easier and faster, I don't think the average HKer event want that. More people would go for dismantling the exiting rail link to Luohu than the HSR to mainland if it ever put to a vote. The fact this project exists at all is incompntance, and fact the project was pushed forward with all the rounf about effort to going against it resulting ib delays and cost overruns is incompetance on tip of incompetance


----------



## maginn

luhai167 said:


> What it comes down to is that HK people don't want HSR as much. Otherwise a vocal minority would not drown out the "silent majority" if it actually want the thing to be built. There is due process and there is due process with essessive delays. Just look at the speed US has contructed its interstate highway system in the 20th century and its rail system in the 19 century. Its unhealth to hide behind democracy or rule of law when imcompentce is really to blame.
> 
> If HKer don't need HSR, why waste money and build it? They seems to be perfectly okay with flying, or take the metrol to shenzhen that is if they go to mainland at all.(do the average HKer go to mainland beyond shenzhen and dongguan? my friends in HK seems to only go to Japan and thailand) Personally for me, If i do go through HK (when cathay pacific has cheaper seats) i would just take the ferry at the airport in shenzhen and go to the whatever city i need to go, whether HK has HSR station or not is completely irrelivent. As for HSR make mainlander visiting HK easier and faster, I don't think the average HKer event want that. More people would go for dismantling the exiting rail link to Luohu than the HSR to mainland if it ever put to a vote. The fact this project exists at all is incompntance, and fact the project was pushed forward with all the rounf about effort to going against it resulting ib delays and cost overruns is incompetance on tip of incompetance


I don't think that's entirely true, I'm from HK and would love to see the high speed rail station completed ASAP. Currently, people have to travel overland between HK and either Shenzhen North or Guangzhou South to get the HSR to the connect with the rest of China's network (this will be easier once the Futian railway station opens however). 

I hope that when it is finally complete, the cross border facility will allow you to clear mainland Chinese customs and immigration formalities inside the West Kowloon station before boarding the train, as opposed to the other 'international' trains from Hung Hom station where you only clear HK customs and immigration.


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## Sopomon

I think the point is that many HKers don't particularly want to cross the border (perhaps aside to do some cheap shopping in SZ) in the first place. For destinations further afield, flying has been the way to go, especially with the projected travel times and the necessary routing through GZ of the main line north. 

In many peoples' eyes this allows even more people to pour in from the north, and I'm sure you're aware how people feel about that.

Still, it's being built and while it's a pretty colossal waste of money, there's no time machine to unbuild it. HK can at least be happy that there is a new piece of infrastructure, despite that it's essentially just a portal to the mainland and isn't useful for the average joe.


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## hkskyline

There is a need to connect to the mainland's HSR network. The business traffic is enormous, and would benefit substantially from easier links to our neighbouring cities.

Governance over the project has been failing, which is a different issue from individual people not liking China and not wanting to go there. This link should have been built mostly above ground along the Tung Chung/West Rail corridors to start, rather than doing the impossible underground though densely-built urban areas.


----------



## maginn

hkskyline said:


> There is a need to connect to the mainland's HSR network. The business traffic is enormous, and would benefit substantially from easier links to our neighbouring cities.
> 
> Governance over the project has been failing, which is a different issue from individual people not liking China and not wanting to go there. This link should have been built mostly above ground along the Tung Chung/West Rail corridors to start, rather than doing the impossible underground though densely-built urban areas.


^I agree with this post. 

Sopomon is not correct with his statement that many HKers don't want to cross the border, it is only a minority of the population that harbor such views. Try visiting the HK-Macau ferry terminal (in Sheung Wan), the China-HK ferry terminal (in TST), Hung Hom railway station, or the airport, and you will see plenty of HK people traveling to destinations in mainland China for all kinds of reasons. 
And then go visit the Lok Ma Chau or Lowu railway stations on the East Rail Line, and the numerous land border crossings with Shenzhen and tell me HK people don't particularly want to cross the border...


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## jaysonn341

This would be very useful for tourists/business travelers. People who say it shouldn't be built cannot keep denying that HK doesn't exist within the broader PRD region. 

You cannot rely on the "average Joe" to make a decision about a project that will clearly be a necessity in the future.


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## kunming tiger

luhai167 said:


> What it comes down to is that HK people don't want HSR as much. Otherwise a vocal minority would not drown out the "silent majority" if it actually want the thing to be built. There is due process and there is due process with essessive delays. Just look at the speed US has contructed its interstate highway system in the 20th century and its rail system in the 19 century. Its unhealth to hide behind democracy or rule of law when imcompentce is really to blame.
> 
> If HKer don't need HSR, why waste money and build it? They seems to be perfectly okay with flying, or take the metrol to shenzhen that is if they go to mainland at all.(do the average HKer go to mainland beyond shenzhen and dongguan? my friends in HK seems to only go to Japan and thailand) Personally for me, If i do go through HK (when cathay pacific has cheaper seats) i would just take the ferry at the airport in shenzhen and go to the whatever city i need to go, whether HK has HSR station or not is completely irrelivent. As for HSR make mainlander visiting HK easier and faster, I don't think the average HKer event want that. More people would go for dismantling the exiting rail link to Luohu than the HSR to mainland if it ever put to a vote. The fact this project exists at all is incompntance, and fact the project was pushed forward with all the rounf about effort to going against it resulting ib delays and cost overruns is incompetance on tip of incompetance


The vocal majority is always louder than the silent majority hence the term "silent"

The average Hong Konger is becoming less relevant by the year. Political decisions or policy making don;t take into account public opinion . 

The issue with change is either get on board, get out of the way or get run over. The World is changing and the coming of the HSR is just aspect of that change.


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## FM 2258

I feel like a train that takes 12-14 minutes to get from Kowloon to Futian will be a cash cow. Despite all the problems I'm sure once it's up and running and all kinks are worked out, people will wonder how they lived without it. The Pearl River Delta will be the best connected metropolis in the world after the Yangtze River Delta (Hangzhou-Nanjing-Shanghai)....in my opinion.


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## YannSZ

^^ I concur. Leaving right next to it, I'll stop using HuangGang and FuTian checkpoint and will always use this new way to go to Hong Kong cutting my travel time by half at least.
People living in FuTian CBD would even be able to have a job in Kowloon.


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## hkskyline

*Tien puts rail cost at $90b*
The Standard _Excerpt_
Thursday, May 07, 2015



















The price tag for the troubled cross-border express railway will go up by HK$18 billion to a staggering HK$90 billion, the chairman of the Legislative Council transport panel said.

Michael Tien Puk-sun said it is pragmatic to estimate that the construction cost of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will soar to HK$90 billion because of a two- year delay in the project.

"What I can only say about the cost is that the overbudget is higher than the one I estimated earlier, which was about HK$20 billion. The management said it was unacceptable and returned it to the subordinates for discussion again ... HK$90 billion might be the final cost," Tien said.

In 2010, the expected budget was HK$65 billion, but it rose to HK$71.52 billion in the latest amendment last year.

Tien urged the government to start discussing with the rail operator on how the soaring construction cost will be shared.


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## hkskyline

*Time to rethink trade-off between speed and cost*
7 May 2015
China Daily _Excerpt_

The latest government estimates, according to well-placed sources, that the bill for constructing the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will increase 30 percent to HK$85 billion from the original HK$65 billion. It is now time to rethink the trade-off between speed and cost.

We can use the HK$20 billion saved to build more day-care centers to release full-time mothers to rejoin the workforce, as Hong Kong will face a shortage of skilled office and other workers in 10 years' time, or increase allowances for the needy, underprivileged and the aged. We can also use this handsome sum of money to build more medical and educational facilities, including after-school programs for students from poor families.

Since the return of Hong Kong to the motherland in 1997, the SAR's economy and the mainland's have been tightly integrated. In a sense, we are "one family". Hong Kong people can simply take the local train to Lo Wu, cross the border to Shenzhen and take a 72-minute bullet train from Shenzhen to Guangzhou. The Shenzhen-Guangzhou trains run at intervals of every 10 to 20 minutes. This is so convenient we don't need to build another high-speed rail in Hong Kong. We should leverage our proximity to Shenzhen and make use of Shenzhen's advanced train facilities. There is nothing shameful about this.

Some Hong Kong people may complain that it takes too long to cross the Lo Wu-Shenzhen immigration checkpoint. Little do they know that things have improved since the thousands of Shenzhen-based "parallel traders" were allowed to visit Hong Kong once a week (starting in mid-April) instead of several times a day. Even when people take the current Guangzhou-Kowloon Through Train (departing from Hung Hom in Kowloon), they still need to go through customs and immigration in Guangzhou. The same would apply to local travelers on the high-speed rail - should it be built.


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## Sopomon

^^
The CCP mouthpiece arguing against HSR in Hong Kong?
They were the ones who were pushing the idea in the first place!

Do they simply think that the project can just be abandoned and left as it is?

Something's not right here


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## doc7austin

> Hong Kong people can simply take the local train to Lo Wu, cross the border to Shenzhen and take a 72-minute bullet train from Shenzhen to Guangzhou.


This procedure is very, very stressfull.


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## FM 2258

^^

I took the local train from Hung Hom to Lok Ma Chau station and the ride seemed to take forever. I didn't cross the border so could only imagine how much more stressful it would be to take that trip. I'm not sure how much opposition there was to the Chek Lap Kok airport construction but if there were any complaints then I don't hear or see anything about those problems today. I feel similar with this project.


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## jaysonn341

I've taken the MTR to the Lo Wu Checkpoint and onwards to Guangzhou. Can tell you all now that a HSR link from Kowloon would be MUCH more preferable. It is even a struggle to get to Hung Hom! The interchange walk at TST and TST East is an absolute joke of a station.


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## Silly_Walks

hkskyline said:


> *Time to rethink trade-off between speed and cost*
> 7 May 2015
> China Daily _Excerpt_
> 
> [...]


What a load of unsubstantiated bollocks.


It takes about 45 minutes just to get from Hung Hom to the border crossing.

The HSR would have taken you to Guangzhou in that time.

Not to mention how quickly it would get you to Shenzhen.

Compared to the long-term time savings the investment is peanuts.


Why do they even print this rubbish?


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## ad50939

That's predictable and inevitable, as I have said before.



ad50939 said:


> 2017? Not a chance.
> 
> My guess is opening not until 2019.
> 
> Stupid design + unrealistic planning !


The fiasco goes on .........


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## Silly_Walks

Your words, although using a large font, don't really say much.

Also, I can not read Chinese.


Could you please translate and elaborate?


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## Cosmicbliss

OT but is Chinese read left to right or top to bottom? I have seen both!


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## skyridgeline

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> *The CCP mouthpiece arguing against HSR in Hong Kong?*
> They were the ones who were pushing the idea in the first place!
> 
> Do they simply think that the project can just be abandoned and left as it is?
> 
> Something's not right here





Silly_Walks said:


> *What a load of unsubstantiated bollocks.*
> 
> 
> It takes about 45 minutes just to get from Hung Hom to the border crossing.
> 
> The HSR would have taken you to Guangzhou in that time.
> 
> Not to mention how quickly it would get you to Shenzhen.
> 
> Compared to the long-term time savings the investment is peanuts.
> 
> 
> Why do they even print this rubbish?



It's an apologetic article. The delays are like an affront to Beijing/China. 

They better find some dinosaurs or ancient Chinese in the grounds along the project :lol: . Maybe then, Hong Kong will be forgiven  .


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## Sopomon

Since the protests, it seems that 'one country, two systems' is now almost a law in which Hong Kongers must abide, of course with all the emphasis on the one country and next-to-none of the two systems.
It's surprising to see how often that term comes up nowadays, especially compared to how it was before.


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## gowallstmichael

As a mainland resident, I feel really bored with the endless argument in Hong Kong.


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## Silly_Walks

gowallstmichael said:


> As a mainland resident, I feel really bored with the endless argument in Hong Kong.


As a visitor of this forum about architecture, urban planning and infrastructure, I don't care about your views on Hong Kong politics.


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## maldini

Silly_Walks said:


> As a visitor of this forum about architecture, urban planning and infrastructure, I don't care about your views on Hong Kong politics.


Why did you even reply if you do not care about his views?


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## hkskyline

All the discussions about enforcement and immigration point to both sides' respect of the rule of law, a core value that Hong Kong enjoys. I think the ultimate solution needs to mimick what Canadian airports do for US departures but they need to tweak out the logistics carefully.


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## Silly_Walks

maldini said:


> Why did you even reply if you do not care about his views?


Should be pretty clear why I did that. To impress upon him this is not a place to express his political views. I thought that would be obvious.


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## gowallstmichael

Silly_Walks said:


> Should be pretty clear why I did that. To impress upon him this is not a place to express his political views. I thought that would be obvious.


*Which words of my sentence* show any of my politic views? Is it really my politic views, or is it indeed *your crazy imagination* of me?


> As a visitor of this forum about architecture, urban planning and infrastructure


Your statement is really ridiculous and funny. *All visitors here* are people interested in architecture, urban planning and infrastructure, and I am not the exception, especially considering my identity as a mainland resident who feels hard to visit *international* forum. It is *not your advantage* over me.

What I want to clarify is that *other investors* and potential users of GZ-SZ-HK HSR should not pay for Hong Kong's errors, no matter which part of Hong Kongers should be responsible for that. 2015? 2017? 2018? 2019?....Is there anyone that can *validly restrict MTR*? Apparently no.

And the most importantly, I don't think discussion about *"one-place-two-inspection*"(一地两检) or *Hong Kong's delayed construction* is *pure* politic issue. It *directly* decides the *opening day* and the *usefulness* of GZ-SZ-HK HSR.

And at last, a small piece of advice to you: politics is just around us in our daily life; if you want to avoid it, you will find yourself unable to solve any problem.


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## gowallstmichael

> point to both sides' respect of the rule of law


I really agree with it. However, when people state this principle, they must make sure that they are of good intention or *show a manner of solving problems*, rather than speak to *create blocks and troubles*.


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## luhai

As someone traveling to China via international flights and must to do rail transfer to reaching my destination. I find this linkage to be useless, even though flights to Hong Kong tends to be the cheaper. Did some calculation, and it appears taking the ferry from the airport to Shenzhen and train from there is still the faster option.

(If Shanghai actually does manages to extend the maglev from its international airport to Hongqiao (and let maglev use a normal metro card), that would be the best option out of them all.) [or the off chance that the Beijing's Daxin airport will get a HSR station attached like it was originally rumored to be.]


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## hkskyline

gowallstmichael said:


> I really agree with it. However, when people state this principle, they must make sure that they are of good intention or *show a manner of solving problems*, rather than speak to *create blocks and troubles*.


It is not our responsibility to provide an action problem for every problem identified. There are people paid to do that stuff. It is crucial that we speak out when we see issues to kick-start the debate.

Oftentimes it would take far longer to find a solution than to identify the problem.


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## Silver Swordsman

gowallstmichael said:


> *Which words of my sentence* show any of my politic views? Is it really my politic views, or is it indeed *your crazy imagination* of me?
> 
> Your statement is really ridiculous and funny. *All visitors here* are people interested in architecture, urban planning and infrastructure, and I am not the exception, especially considering my identity as a mainland resident who feels hard to visit *international* forum. It is *not your advantage* over me.
> 
> What I want to clarify is that *other investors* and potential users of GZ-SZ-HK HSR should not pay for Hong Kong's errors, no matter which part of Hong Kongers should be responsible for that. 2015? 2017? 2018? 2019?....Is there anyone that can *validly restrict MTR*? Apparently no.
> 
> And the most importantly, I don't think discussion about *"one-place-two-inspection*"(一地两检) or *Hong Kong's delayed construction* is *pure* politic issue. It *directly* decides the *opening day* and the *usefulness* of GZ-SZ-HK HSR.
> 
> And at last, a small piece of advice to you: politics is just around us in our daily life; if you want to avoid it, you will find yourself unable to solve any problem.



First off, you sound very, very butthurt. The fact that you had to spit out an entire paragraph to attempt to "disprove" his point ironically proves his point that you ARE waxing political. 


Second, any claims of political neutrality in your statement is negated when you established yourself as a Mainland resident. While I understand that firewall controls make it difficult for you to access international forums, that is not an excuse. We don't owe you anything. There is is a world's difference between saying:

"I think HKers are acting stupid."
"I'm Mainland Chinese and I think HKers are acting stupid."

The first one is an objective opinion. Not a very well-argued opinion, but an objective opinion nonetheless; not to mention that simple one-line statements about such a controversial subject are easily interpreted as political. The second one, however, establishes your own subjective position in relation to Hong Kong, which will be interpreted as a political statement. By staking an identity that is politically affiliated with the topic, you have taken a political stance, which is what SillyWalks is pointing out. You don't have to say *"I'm making a political statement"* in order to make one. 


Yes, politics ARE intertwined with daily life, especially in the case of GZ-SZ-HK HSR, due to valid political issues in Hong Kong outside the scope of this discussion. Most of the discussions in this thread therefore tend to avoid one-sided commentary as such things are generally frowned upon as "off topic". 

Take the USA HSR thread. HSR in the US is limited due to Republicans, NIMBYs, and politics on steroids, yet most of the discussion stays clear of politics. Example: pictures and discussions about the Portal Bridge (a problematic 100-year old bridge) almost always focus on its current aesthetics or possible replacement plans--NOT on hating the Republicans defunding Amtrak. 


Not that I fully disagree with you, however. For one, I enjoy studying HSR systems across the world not only because of architecture and aesthetics, but also for its economic and social benefits, as well as the political commentary about such projects. I do think that HK is overreacting a bit regarding Immigration, and HK should just pursue what is pragmatic as the details can be hammered out later. However, I do also understand why they would be inclined to do otherwise, as they are more wary in lieu of recent events. I don't think that Silly Walks is against Mainlanders in particular--rather that political discussions here should remain objective and impersonal.



EDIT: Changed from Hell's Gate to Portal. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Silly_Walks

^^ This, verbatim.

Saves me a lot of typing on my mobile phone keyboard, thanks :lol:


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## sponge_bob

One oddity is that 2 large tunnel boring machines arrived in Hong Kong this year. One is 14m across and is to bore a road tunnel near that MTR tunnel somewhere. Here. 

http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/tbm-arrives-hong-k7o7n7g-dig-new-route/

However the underwater tunnel to Lap Kok airport is being bored by a 17.6m diameter machine (the worlds biggest ever machine) which is _far too wide_ a diameter for a 2 lane road. In fact you could put a train ...perhaps even a Shenzen Metro train AND a 2 lane road through it, have a look yourself. That or a 3 lane road with hard shoulder and no train.


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## hkskyline

sponge_bob said:


> One oddity is that 2 large tunnel boring machines arrived in Hong Kong this year. One is 14m across and is to bore a road tunnel near that MTR tunnel somewhere. Here.
> 
> http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/tbm-arrives-hong-k7o7n7g-dig-new-route/
> 
> However the underwater tunnel to Lap Kok airport is being bored by a 17.6m diameter machine (the worlds biggest ever machine) which is _far too wide_ a diameter for a 2 lane road. In fact you could put a train ...perhaps even a Shenzen Metro train AND a 2 lane road through it, have a look yourself. That or a 3 lane road with hard shoulder and no train.


Since this tunnel needs to cater for trucks using the new bridge facilities, they need to be wide and tall enough. I doubt it will be economical to put a train line through given the NW NT's population, and the rail link proposal to Shenzhen's airport is very much dead.


----------



## 00Zy99

Silver Swordsman said:


> Example: pictures and discussions about Hell's Gate Bridge (a problematic 100-year old bridge) almost always focus on its current aesthetics or possible replacement plans--NOT on hating the Republicans defunding Amtrak.


This was all very well said. I do have to admit that the US HSR threads can get political at times (though not nearly as bad as the British ones). 

But my biggest gripe is that you are mixing up Portal Bridge (falling apart) with Hell Gate (built like a battleship and probably one of the sturdiest bridges in the world). :lol:


Both were part of the same project, built at the same time, on opposite sides of a city, so its an easy mistake to make unless you are really familiar with it.

Hell Gate (the inspiration for a certain Australian Bridge):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Gate_Bridge

Portal: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_Bridge


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## Silver Swordsman

Thx 00Zy. I went and fixed it.


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## kunming tiger

Silver Swordsman
Registered User

Second, any claims of political neutrality in your statement is negated when you established yourself as a Mainland resident. While I understand that firewall controls make it difficult for you to access international forums, that is not an excuse. We don't owe you anything. There is is a world's difference between saying:

As a long term resident of China you are asked as a matter of procedure to sign a stat dec saying you will not involve yourself in political , religious or criminal activities as a condition of your stay in China. Non complicance can result in a criminal sanction. In effect it's a guarantee of your neutrality in writing . Even short term visitors are asked to do the same thing.


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## 00Zy99

Just because you sign something doesn't mean that you'll obey it. Its impossible to watch everybody all the time. And he might not be in the PRC right now.


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## hkskyline

*JOINT EXPRESS RAIL BORDER CONTROLS 'WITHIN BASIC LAW'*
The Standard _Excerpt_
Thursday, December 10, 2015 

The idea of amending the Basic Law so mainland authorities can be stationed at the Express Rail Link's boundary control station in West Kowloon is now under study by Hong Kong officials.

But news of that process from Secretary for Justice Rimsky Yuen set off immediate denunciations by several legislators yesterday, with one talking about a betrayal.

Yuen said in the Legislative Council: "We are looking at all potential practical ways to conduct the co-location immigration arrangements, and having mainland officials to work at the terminal is one of the ways that can be considered.

"We do not see this to be breaching the Basic Law or the one country, two systems principle."

Yuen later told media that with "co- location" it is inevitable mainland personnel will be allowed to enforce laws in the West Kowloon terminus. By then, legal-sector legislator and Civic Party member Dennis Kwok Wing-hang had accused Yuen of "potentially betraying" the principle of one country, two systems.

He cited a declaration by the Hong Kong Bar Association in 2002 when discussing Article 23 legislation that any national law borrowed or adopted in Hong Kong would be "inappropriate."

Legislators also proposed a system of clearing immigration formalities while passengers are riding in carriages, with more than 500 on some trains.

Yuen said this was not feasible because of a lack of time: the trip from West Kowloon to Shenzhen Futian would take only 14 minutes.


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## hkskyline

12/8

Hong Kong Dec. 2015 by Yasunari Goto, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Appeal for more rail link funding*
The Standard _Excerpt_
Monday, December 14, 2015

Three-quarters of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link's SAR section has been finished, and all that work will be in vain if construction stops now, the MTR Corporation Limited's incoming chairman Frederick Ma Si-hang says.

Ma hopes the Legislative Council's Finance Committee will approve the additional funding of HK$19.6 billion before March to enable the construction to finish by 2018. 

Ma, who takes over as MTRCL chairman on January 1, said: "All the tunnel excavation work has been finished, and the construction work could be completed before the third quarter of 2018."

He said this yesterday as he accompanied a group of 11 lawmakers from the Legco Subcommittee on Matters Relating to Railways on a visit to the construction site at the Austin Station of the West Kowloon express rail terminus for the first time. 

The project has been marred by cost overruns and delays.

The terminus is divided into four stories, with escalators and directional signages set up, and the tunnel for laying rail tracks ready.

MTRCL projects director Philco Wong Nai-keung said: "We have reserved areas at both the departure and arrival halls for joint immigration checkpoints. Our construction work has been designed under the principle of having the co-location of immigration clearance.

"Therefore we will continue to follow the government's direction on the project."


----------



## Eco-rat

hkskyline said:


> Appeal for more rail link funding The Standard Excerpt Monday, December 14, 2015 Three-quarters of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link's SAR section has been finished, and all that work will be in vain if construction stops now, the MTR Corporation Limited's incoming chairman Frederick Ma Si-hang says. Ma hopes the Legislative Council's Finance Committee will approve the additional funding of HK$19.6 billion before March to enable the construction to finish by 2018. Ma, who takes over as MTRCL chairman on January 1, said: "All the tunnel excavation work has been finished, and the construction work could be completed before the third quarter of 2018." He said this yesterday as he accompanied a group of 11 lawmakers from the Legco Subcommittee on Matters Relating to Railways on a visit to the construction site at the Austin Station of the West Kowloon express rail terminus for the first time. The project has been marred by cost overruns and delays. The terminus is divided into four stories, with escalators and directional signages set up, and the tunnel for laying rail tracks ready. MTRCL projects director Philco Wong Nai-keung said: "We have reserved areas at both the departure and arrival halls for joint immigration checkpoints. Our construction work has been designed under the principle of having the co-location of immigration clearance. "Therefore we will continue to follow the government's direction on the project."


Its bad enough there are communists in Government House, in Legco and in the Army Barracks. Keep them north of the border fence. Tell them to get on at Shenzhen and ride to Dongguan or Guangzhou and scan Id or passport on board.


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## 00Zy99

Eco-rat said:


> Its bad enough there are communists in Government House, in Legco and in the Army Barracks. Keep them north of the border fence. Tell them to get on at Shenzhen and ride to Dongguan or Guangzhou and scan Id or passport on board.


Would if we could. Apparently there isn't enough time to do so.


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## hkskyline

Dec 14, 2015 
*Why co-location plan on rail link raises some fundamental issues*
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_

Without revisiting the background of the tussle and the chicanery the government has displayed throughout, you won’t be able to understand what the immigration control co-location issue means to “one country, two systems”.

I am referring to the key aspect related to the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed rail link.

The government conceived the express rail project to speed up cross-border integration for the “one-hour living circle” between Hong Kong and the rest of the Pearl River Delta.

To push the project through the legislature, it schemed a three-fold lie: to purposefully underestimate the project cost, exaggerate the work progress and leave the unsettled co-location issue to the future.

Surely Hongkongers will have to agree to open the door for mainland agents, no matter how distasteful the prospect, given that we are already halfway through the construction of the rail link.

This is exactly what we saw last week when the Transport and Housing Bureau told lawmakers that we stand to lose up to HK$75.6 billion, including HK$60 billion already spent, if we choose to scrap the project.

If we press ahead, the total bill could hit the cap of HK$84.4 billion, which would be 32 percent higher than the original estimate back in 2009.

And, if Hongkongers reject the co-location plan for faster immigration and customs clearance, we will be pouring money for a hugely expensive white elephant as the express rail link may be no quicker than the current inter-city through trains, as officials warn.

This is how the government’s scheme to fool Hongkongers into the scam has worked out. To create the legal ground for mainland agents to enforce laws in Hong Kong, provisions of the Basic Law would be twisted.

A mainland law scholar sent out word last month that since the Chinese State Council delineated and gazetted the boundary of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region prior to the Basic Law’s promulgation in 1990, Beijing has the legal power to allot a designated portion of Hong Kong’s territory – certain areas within the West Kowloon terminus – for occupation by mainland law enforcement personnel.

Article 7 of the Basic Law, which states that land and natural resources within the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be state property, is also cited as the source of Beijing’s rights.

The only due procedure required is for the National People’s Congress to enact laws to enable mainland agents to be stationed in the heart of Hong Kong.

The rationale is indeed nothing new: Beijing exercises overall jurisdiction over Hong Kong and the SAR authorities have no power unless authorized.

The rest : http://www.ejinsight.com/20151215-why-co-location-plan-on-rail-link-raises-some-fundamental-issues/


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## hkskyline

*Lawmakers may get to read 'sensitive' rail agreement*
22 December 2015
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_ 

The government might allow lawmakers to read the entrustment agreement for construction and commissioning of the high-speed rail link to Guangzhou, Hong Kong's transport chief said yesterday.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Professor Anthony Cheung Bing-leung said lawmakers had asked for details about the pact signed between the administration and the MTR Corporation, widely seen as key information in determining which party should be responsible for covering the cost overruns after prolonged delays in completion of the project.

"The agreement contains sensitive information ... but the administration will consider the lawmakers' request and discuss with the MTR," Cheung told an inquiry in the Legislative Council.

"We will make an announcement when we come to a decision," he added, without giving a timetable for the disclosure.

Under a controversial agreement announced last month, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will be completed in the third quarter of 2018, with the cost revised to HK$84.42 billion - HK$880 million less than the corporation's last estimate.

The government hopes to persuade a highly sceptical Legislative Council to approve the HK$19.6 billion in extra funding by February. Almost exactly the same amount should eventually be recouped through a special dividend to be paid by the MTR.


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## hkskyline

*Futian rail link speeds up travel to Guangzhou *
The Standard _Excerpt_
Thursday, December 24, 2015

Traveling to Guangzhou will take only 42 minutes for Hongkongers when Shenzhen's Futian Station on the Express Rail Link starts operating on Wednesday.

Taking a train from Lo Wu station to Guangzhou would normally take 80 minutes, but with the opening of the Futian Station, it will take just 42 minutes on the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail for Guangzhou South station.

Travelers can take the MTR to Lok Ma Chau, where they will be able to switch to the Express Rail Link.

The Futian terminus is the biggest underground railway station in the world, according to mainland media reports.

The three-story station takes up an area of 147,000 square meters, equivalent to 21 football fields, with 1,200 seats for passengers in the waiting hall.

Platform screen doors have been designed to ensure passenger safety. At the first stage of operation, 23 trains toward Guangzhou South will be operating daily. The number of round trips could increase at a later stage.

North District councillor Lau Kwok-fan said he expects more business trips will be made from Futian to Hong Kong's Lok Ma Chau station when the Futian terminus starts running.


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## YannSZ

^^ The article is very confusing. It says "it will take 42 minutes for Hong Kongers to got to Guangzhou". So from Hong Kong or from FuTian station? If from FuTian station then it's not only to Hong Kongers. 
Then once you get to Lok Ma Chau it says they'll be able to switch to the "Express Rail Link"? but you still need to go from Lok Ma Chau to FuTian train's station. And it's not even directly connected with the metro, you have one change.
And I originally thought the FuTian-Guangzhou station would take 30 minutes only, while the Hong Kong-FuTian would take 15 minutes.


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## hkskyline

YannSZ said:


> ^^ The article is very confusing. It says "it will take 42 minutes for Hong Kongers to got to Guangzhou". So from Hong Kong or from FuTian station? If from FuTian station then it's not only to Hong Kongers.
> Then once you get to Lok Ma Chau it says they'll be able to switch to the "Express Rail Link"? but you still need to go from Lok Ma Chau to FuTian train's station. And it's not even directly connected with the metro, you have one change.
> And I originally thought the FuTian-Guangzhou station would take 30 minutes only, while the Hong Kong-FuTian would take 15 minutes.


I'm reading and hearing confusing numbers as well. This article says 36 minutes between Shenzhen North to GZ South, so perhaps 40 to Futian makes sense. But I recall the TV news reported 30 minutes, in which case 40 seems plausible if factoring in the train ride from the Lok Ma Chau border.

http://www.ejinsight.com/20151229-why-hk-guangzhou-express-will-take-more-than-48-minutes/

I don't see the schedules loaded onto Ctrip yet.


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## hkskyline

*Trip back in time for railway travellers*
31 December 2015
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Back in the 1970s, a simple journey across the border was an adventure

With the opening of the new Futian railway station yesterday, it now takes less than an hour to travel to Guangzhou, a hub city connected to the national network, even faster than travelling to some remote areas of Hong Kong. 

It's the kind of convenience that was once unimaginable for Paul Lee Siu-nam, a professor in his 60s at Chinese University's School of Journalism and Communication.

Lee recalls how it used to take the best part of a day to reach his hometown of Huizhou (惠州) in Guangdong in the 1970s, while hauling heavy bags full of gifts for relatives.

He and his family would line up at Hung Hom station as early as 6am to catch the train to Shenzhen, and then change to a small van near the border before finally arriving in Huizhou at around 3 to 4pm.

"I remember I wore multiple layers of clothes when heading for Huizhou, but only one layer was left on the way back to Hong Kong," Lee says. All the extra clothes were given to his mainland relatives.

That was a common tactic used by Hong Kong travellers back then, as they tried to take as many things as possible to relatives struggling with poverty and desperately short of bare necessities in the storm of the Cultural Revolution.

"We left whatever we could leave," says Lee.

Canned biscuits and salted fish in oil were the most popular gifts, Lee recalls, as they were both rare and useful on the mainland.

"Money was the best, of course," he adds.

However, times have changed on both sides of the Shenzhen River over the past four decades.The younger generation in Hong Kong is no longer bound to China by kinship like our generationPaul Lee Siu-nam

Lee's mainland relatives are no longer crying out for gifts and some regularly cross the border to visit Hong Kong and stock up on daily supplies like milk powder. Many have become wealthier than ordinary residents of the city.

Meanwhile, Hongkongers are also travelling in greater numbers than ever. Data compiled by the Census and Statistics Department shows that departures of local residents by sea and by land from Hong Kong have grown by 31 times since 1975, reaching 75 million last year.


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## hkskyline

*New Hong Kong MTR chief pays staff early New Year's Day visit in station, details challenges ahead*
1 January 2016
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_ 

The new chairman of MTR Corporation warned early this morning it would be a challenge to secure extra funding from lawmakers to finish Hong Kong's long-delayed high-speed railway link.

MTR currently was short HK$19.6 billion to finish the city's portion of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link and sought the amount by March. 

To keep the project running, the government last year proposed to ask the Legislative Council to approve HK$19.6 billion in extra funding by February. Almost exactly the same amount would eventually be recouped through a special dividend to be paid by the MTR, subject to its shareholders' approval.

Frederick Ma Si-hang, the new MTR chairman, said that while he expected minority shareholders of the corporation to support the plan to issue the special dividend at a meeting in February, legislators might not agree to give it the money.

"Looking at how stock prices are trending now, it seems minority shareholders will support the proposal,"said Ma, marking his first day as railway chief today by visiting his staff members working overnight at Tsing Yi MTR station at 1:30 am on New Year's Day.

"If we get approval from the minority shareholders, the next step is to go to the Legislative Council.

"This will be a difficult challenge because everyone knows the Legislative Council has many problems, including filibustering," he added. "March is our deadline [to secure the funding]."

Although Ma said he knew the government's suggestion of setting up a joint immigration checkpoint at the West Kowloon terminus was a cause for concern among some lawmakers, he said MTR had no control over it.

"MTR has no role in this matter," he said. "It has to be solved by the government."

Ma also revealed MTR had yet to obtain the right to operate the Hong Kong section of the high-speed railway and hoped the government could start discussions on the operation within this year. 

Despite all the financial and policy uncertainties, Ma said he remained "confident" the rail project could finish by the third quarter of 2018.


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## hkskyline

P1210602a by kl lam, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*MTR fills in gaps on new link*
The Standard _Excerpt_
Wednesday, January 06, 2016

It may take Express Railway Link passengers more than an hour to travel from Hong Kong to Guangzhou if the train stops at every station, says the latest information from MTR Corp Limited.

Transport and housing secretary Anthony Cheung Bing-leung had earlier said the government's proclaimed 48-minute ride on the super train did not count the time for stopping at different stations.

Cheung insisted the 2009 estimate did not include train stops and that the actual travel time would depend on discussions with the mainland side, a statement that surprised several lawmakers, including transport panel chairman Michael Tien Puk-sun.

According to the design of the Express Railway Link, the journey from the West Kowloon Terminus would take 48 minutes if it skipped the Futian, Shenzhen North and Humen stations. The three stops will add 15 minutes to the trip.


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## hkskyline

*Nod for rail link monitor post*
The Standard _Excerpt_
Thursday, January 07, 2016

The appointment of a new chief engineer to monitor the construction of the much-delayed and overbudget Hong Kong section of the Express Rail Link passed its first hurdle at the Legislative Council's establishment subcommittee yesterday.

The proposal to reopen the post in the Railway Development Office of the Highways Department was approved by 20 votes to eight, and will now be submitted to the Finance Committee for final approval.

The four-year job, which will have a salary and staff on-cost of HK$2.27 million a year, will be backdated to December 31 last year, and last until the final day of 2019.

According to the Legco document, the job calls for providing dedicated support and monitoring the completion of the Hong Kong section of the Express Railway Link.

The job was first opened on July 4, 2008, but lapsed last July, as the department failed to obtain the Finance Committee's approval to retain the post.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> *MTR fills in gaps on new link*
> The Standard _Excerpt_
> Wednesday, January 06, 2016
> 
> It may take Express Railway Link passengers more than an hour to travel from Hong Kong to Guangzhou if the train stops at every station, says the latest information from MTR Corp Limited.
> 
> Transport and housing secretary Anthony Cheung Bing-leung had earlier said the government's proclaimed 48-minute ride on the super train did not count the time for stopping at different stations.
> 
> Cheung insisted the 2009 estimate did not include train stops and that the actual travel time would depend on discussions with the mainland side, a statement that surprised several lawmakers, including transport panel chairman Michael Tien Puk-sun.
> 
> According to the design of the Express Railway Link, the journey from the West Kowloon Terminus would take 48 minutes if it skipped the Futian, Shenzhen North and Humen stations. The three stops will add 15 minutes to the trip.


Are they really expecting every train on this line to stop at every station? 
Just look at the current GTT or services from Shenzhen North, there are a range of service and choices through out the day. How can this really be a surprise to anyone?

There is more than enough traffic on this route to justify a through service to match the quoted 48 minute time. It is also likely to have limited stop services too, with Futian being the most likely stop, with a limited dwell time. In the worse case, to stop at all stations is only 63 minutes. Close enough to be promoted as an hour long ride.


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## hkskyline

Short said:


> Are they really expecting every train on this line to stop at every station?
> Just look at the current GTT or services from Shenzhen North, there are a range of service and choices through out the day. How can this really be a surprise to anyone?
> 
> There is more than enough traffic on this route to justify a through service to match the quoted 48 minute time. It is also likely to have limited stop services too, with Futian being the most likely stop, with a limited dwell time. In the worse case, to stop at all stations is only 63 minutes. Close enough to be promoted as an hour long ride.


The original proposal did not include 2 additional stops that were built on the Chinese side. The expensive project was originally promoted with a significant time savings but it seems that is being eroded away bit by bit with these surprises while the cost continues to escalate beyond budget.

So the question is whether it was worth all that money to get marginal time savings over the existing thru-train?

We still don't know how many true express trains there are. Don't think Hong Kong can dictate this as the schedules are owned by the mainland train operator.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The original proposal did not include 2 additional stops that were built on the Chinese side.


Between Hong Kong and Guangzhou South, 5 HSR stops exist:

Qingsheng
Humen
Guangmingcheng
Longhua
Futian
Which of these 5 are "the 2 additional"?


hkskyline said:


> So the question is whether it was worth all that money to get marginal time savings over the existing thru-train?
> 
> We still don't know how many true express trains there are. Don't think Hong Kong can dictate this as the schedules are owned by the mainland train operator.


We do know how many express trains there are on mainland, though we do not know how many of them will be.
As of 9th of January schedule, I counted a grand total of 17 G trains that travel Guangzhou South to Longhua nonstop, 29 to 32 minutes.
At the same day, 71 trains made 1 stop between these stations, trip time 36 to 41 minutes.
Assuming it's the express trains which are picked to continue past Longhua, for reasons which may not be limited to travel time, but include border facilities
the extra trip time for the trains that go to Futian seems to be 14 minutes - 3 minutes dwell at Longhua, 11 minutes for 9 km trip.
After 29 minutes Guangzhou South to Longhua arrival, it makes a grand total 43 minutes Guangzhou South departure to Futian arrival.
What would be the travel time Futian-Hong Kong?


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Between Hong Kong and Guangzhou South, 5 HSR stops exist:
> 
> Qingsheng
> Humen
> Guangmingcheng
> Longhua
> Futian
> Which of these 5 are "the 2 additional"?


According to this news article, Guangmingcheng and Qingshen were added.

The schedules are likely going to drastically change once the Hong Kong section opens to cater for the significant increase in traffic.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Guangmingcheng and Qingshen were added.
> 
> The schedules are likely going to drastically change once the Hong Kong section opens to cater for the significant increase in traffic.


On more examination of present schedules on mainland, turns out NO train now makes 3 stops between Guangzhou South and Shenzhen North.
There are 6 trains that make 2 stops. Compared to over 70 with 1 stop, and 17 nonstops.
Guangzhou South-Guangmingcheng has just 5 trains, 2 of them nonstop, the other 3 stop in Humen. Guangzhou South-Qingsheng has 6 trains.
So: out of the 95 or so daily trains, just 11 stop at Guangmingcheng and Qingsheng, not a single in both.
Having a few trains stop in these stations would slow down (by 7 minutes or so) these few trains. No effect on the travel time of expresses, and only feeble effect on the number of expresses.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> On more examination of present schedules on mainland, turns out NO train now makes 3 stops between Guangzhou South and Shenzhen North.
> There are 6 trains that make 2 stops. Compared to over 70 with 1 stop, and 17 nonstops.
> Guangzhou South-Guangmingcheng has just 5 trains, 2 of them nonstop, the other 3 stop in Humen. Guangzhou South-Qingsheng has 6 trains.
> So: out of the 95 or so daily trains, just 11 stop at Guangmingcheng and Qingsheng, not a single in both.
> Having a few trains stop in these stations would slow down (by 7 minutes or so) these few trains. No effect on the travel time of expresses, and only feeble effect on the number of expresses.


What makes you think the current schedule could be extrapolated once the full line opens all the way to Hong Kong? There are already plans to increase frequencies in this government press release. Keep in mind Futian is not a turnaround station with only 4 train platforms (per that news release), so naturally they can't run all the frequencies that the line was designed for. The current capacity is nowhere near the full line's potential.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> What makes you think the current schedule could be extrapolated once the full line opens all the way to Hong Kong?


Because that's the best information to extrapolate from. I'm very much aware that there are options as to where to extrapolate to.


hkskyline said:


> The current capacity is nowhere near the full line's potential.


102 or so trains per day. Tokaido Shinkansen has what, 160?
The question is how additional frequencies might be distributed.


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## luacstjh98

hkskyline said:


> PRC border agents cannot enforce PRC laws on Hong Kong soil. That's the bookseller case all over again.


He expressly said "stationing Hong Kong police in the "cleared" sections of the station to emphasize Hong Kong's jurisdiction over it". I take that statement to mean that nobody would be, and should be, enforcing PRC laws on Hong Kong soil.

How about arming those HK policemen, with instructions to shoot the PRC border agents if they try even so much as an unauthorized smoke break? The PRC border agents would be in WKT only to provide advisory opinions, and ultimately if they want someone detained they have to either take him off at Futian or ask the HK police to do it. And if any border agent misbehaves, they can just be relieved of duty, declared persona non grata, and put on the next train back to Futian like how exposed spies are treated, that is if HK police didn't already shoot them.

Legally, the PRC agents staffing WKT wouldn't be considered part of the People's Armed Police Border Guard, but as representatives of the PRC Liaison Office in HK. Thus, they wouldn't be given arms or anything like that. And of course, officially the People's Armed Police would be officially delegating the maintenance of the border inspection station at WKT to the Liaison Office.


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## hkskyline

luacstjh98 said:


> He expressly said "stationing Hong Kong police in the "cleared" sections of the station to emphasize Hong Kong's jurisdiction over it". I take that statement to mean that nobody would be, and should be, enforcing PRC laws on Hong Kong soil.
> 
> How about arming those HK policemen, with instructions to shoot the PRC border agents if they try even so much as an unauthorized smoke break? The PRC border agents would be in WKT only to provide advisory opinions, and ultimately if they want someone detained they have to either take him off at Futian or ask the HK police to do it. And if any border agent misbehaves, they can just be relieved of duty, declared persona non grata, and put on the next train back to Futian like how exposed spies are treated, that is if HK police didn't already shoot them.
> 
> Legally, the PRC agents staffing WKT wouldn't be considered part of the People's Armed Police Border Guard, but as representatives of the PRC Liaison Office in HK. Thus, they wouldn't be given arms or anything like that. And of course, officially the People's Armed Police would be officially delegating the maintenance of the border inspection station at WKT to the Liaison Office.


Then what are PRC agents enforcing under Hong Kong police's eyes? They certainly can't be enforcing their own laws under the knowing eyes of Hong Kong law enforcers, or ask their Hong Kong counterparts to do it for them. If these PRC agents are there to provide useless and unenforceable advice, then they don't need to be there in the first place.

Since when can the Liaison Office impose PRC laws in Hong Kong?


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## luacstjh98

PRC agents would be able to check documents, nothing more. If they want to prevent someone from entering the PRC, they have to ask the HK police to do it, under HK immigration laws denying exit. If they want to deny someone exit from the PRC, they have to let him out and ask HK police to deny entry and detain him, likewise under HK laws.

If they want to deal with him under PRC law, then they'll have to let him in, and take him across the border to Futian, or ask the HK authorities to deport the person in question to Futian or some other entry point to the PRC.


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## hkskyline

luacstjh98 said:


> PRC agents would be able to check documents, nothing more. If they want to prevent someone from entering the PRC, they have to ask the HK police to do it, under HK immigration laws denying exit. If they want to deny someone exit from the PRC, they have to let him out and ask HK police to deny entry and detain him, likewise under HK laws.
> 
> If they want to deal with him under PRC law, then they'll have to let him in, and take him across the border to Futian, or ask the HK authorities to deport the person in question to Futian or some other entry point to the PRC.


Hong Kong law enforcement cannot stop someone whom PRC doesn't want to admit. If this person didn't violate Hong Kong laws, then there is no basis to enforce.

Just because PRC doesn't want a lad in doesn't mean Hong Kong has to bar departure. That's not how immigration works.

Your intermingling of Hong Kong and PRC laws and enforcement is exactly the Mad Max scenario people here fear. The rule of law is being jeopardized.


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## luacstjh98

I'm not sure, I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say.

Why can't HK and the PRC put in place the same, if not similar, preclearance procedures that the US currently has with Canada, Ireland and some other countries?

That is my question.

This is what is currently being done for the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearance#Legal_restrictions


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## hkskyline

luacstjh98 said:


> I'm not sure, I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say.
> 
> Why can't HK and the PRC put in place the same, if not similar, preclearance procedures that the US currently has with Canada, Ireland and some other countries?
> 
> That is my question.
> 
> This is what is currently being done for the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearance#Legal_restrictions


No PRC laws can be enforced in Hong Kong soil. Hence, joint immigration facilities on Hong Kong soil violate the One Country Two Systems doctrine. The only way this is going to work is to have Hong Kong immigration officers jointly stationed on mainland Chinese soil, where they are allowed to enforce Hong Kong laws in a specially designated area. That is happening at Shenzhen Bay already.


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## luacstjh98

Then the main complaint from the Chinese side is that such arrangements would not only limit the available destinations that can be served from WKT, it would also make things hard for both the PRC and HK by having to split out operations over many scattered areas.

Am I not wrong?

Besides, US CBP has *no legal powers* on foreign soil. So likewise, under an arrangement like what the US has, *PRC border guards would NOT be allowed to enforce PRC laws*, thus following the One Country Two Systems doctrine.

I guess I'll recuse myself from the discussion here, since we seem to be going nowhere.


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## urbanfan89

hkskyline said:


> No PRC laws can be enforced in Hong Kong soil. Hence, joint immigration facilities on Hong Kong soil violate the One Country Two Systems doctrine. The only way this is going to work is to have Hong Kong immigration officers jointly stationed on mainland Chinese soil, where they are allowed to enforce Hong Kong laws in a specially designated area. That is happening at Shenzhen Bay already.


It would be the same as if someone shows up at HKIA (or any airport anywhere), checks in to any international flight, and are told by the airline staff they are barred from entering the destination country and therefore cannot board the flight. If the barred passenger proceeded to exit control anyway, that person will be without a valid boarding pass and be stopped. The person's right to leave HK was never violated, and only Hong Kong laws are ever enforced during this whole process.

Admittedly, putting official PRC agents at WKT may not be legally tenable. But the railway company has the complete right (and obligation) to conduct document checks prior to boarding. Since it already occurs at airports, it should be doable for the railway.


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## doc7austin

> Thus, they wouldn't be given arms or anything like that.


I cannot remember seeing any Mainland Chinese immigration officer having a firearm.


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## urbanfan89

doc7austin said:


> I cannot remember seeing any Mainland Chinese immigration officer having a firearm.


Giving immigration agents weapons, especially when the jurisdictional issues aren't 1000% clear, is a *really* bad idea.


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## hkskyline

urbanfan89 said:


> It would be the same as if someone shows up at HKIA (or any airport anywhere), checks in to any international flight, and are told by the airline staff they are barred from entering the destination country and therefore cannot board the flight. If the barred passenger proceeded to exit control anyway, that person will be without a valid boarding pass and be stopped. The person's right to leave HK was never violated, and only Hong Kong laws are ever enforced during this whole process.
> 
> Admittedly, putting official PRC agents at WKT may not be legally tenable. But the railway company has the complete right (and obligation) to conduct document checks prior to boarding. Since it already occurs at airports, it should be doable for the railway.


Airlines check for proper visas before granting a boarding pass. The problem occurs when a passenger has a valid visa document, whether it is a HRP or an actual visa if carrying a foreign passport. I don't believe the check-in agent can scan the actual passenger's name against international criminal databases.

China tends to bar entry to certain "flagged" individuals even though they may have a valid HRP or visa to enter the country. So the check-in agent will grant a boarding pass even though they will be turned back at entry into China. I don't think the railway operator has this unofficial blacklist or has any authority to stop a passenger from travelling based on this reason.

The same applies to air travel.


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## luacstjh98

Then give the railway operator the authority, it's China Railway, a state owned corporation after all.

Since you already need ID to buy a HSR ticket, China Railway can simply be made to run a name check against the Ministry of State Security, and deny ticket sales to anyone not allowed to enter or leave China. In fact, if they don't already do this, I'd be surprised. After all, China Railway do run trains across the Chinese border (to Russia and North Korea, at least).

This is what the US does. Airlines are required to submit passenger names to the Secure Flight system for matching against no-fly lists and such, to determine whether a passenger is allowed to board a plane. This includes domestic and international flights, as well as flights that overfly the US but do not land in the US.


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## hkskyline

luacstjh98 said:


> Then give the railway operator the authority, it's China Railway, a state owned corporation after all.
> 
> Since you already need ID to buy a HSR ticket, China Railway can simply be made to run a name check against the Ministry of State Security, and deny ticket sales to anyone not allowed to enter or leave China. In fact, if they don't already do this, I'd be surprised. After all, China Railway do run trains across the Chinese border (to Russia and North Korea, at least).
> 
> This is what the US does. Airlines are required to submit passenger names to the Secure Flight system for matching against no-fly lists and such, to determine whether a passenger is allowed to board a plane. This includes domestic and international flights, as well as flights that overfly the US but do not land in the US.


Chinese immigration and security authorities do not release their blacklists to even state-owned airlines at this time. That's why we still hear people being turned away at the airport upon arrival, and not prevented from boarding. If they are willing to give access, then this may be the solution, but seems they are not willing, hence this matter is still unresolved.

Not too sure how border-crossing formalities are being done at Russia and North Korea borders. Don't think there is any sort of preclearance or joint immigration facilities for these trains.

For the US pre-clearance system, I recall the data submission takes places days before the flight? I suppose last-minute airline ticket sales are more rare compared to railways. Chinese high-speed trains don't allow long-dated pre-sales anyway.


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## YannSZ

Even if they don't give access to such a list, it's not a big problem.
Just take the next train back to Shenzhen and you will be in Futian train station 15 minutes later.



hkskyline said:


> Chinese immigration and security authorities do not release their blacklists to even state-owned airlines at this time. That's why we still hear people being turned away at the airport upon arrival, and not prevented from boarding. If they are willing to give access, then this may be the solution, but seems they are not willing, hence this matter is still unresolved.
> 
> Not too sure how border-crossing formalities are being done at Russia and North Korea borders. Don't think there is any sort of preclearance or joint immigration facilities for these trains.
> 
> For the US pre-clearance system, I recall the data submission takes places days before the flight? I suppose last-minute airline ticket sales are more rare compared to railways. Chinese high-speed trains don't allow long-dated pre-sales anyway.


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> PRC border agents cannot enforce PRC laws on Hong Kong soil. That's the bookseller case all over again.


The situation is not different to the various consulates and diplomatic missions already existing in Hong Kong. They validate and judge the suitability which individuals can or can not gain a visa to their respective countries as per their respective laws. Anyone causing any trouble or illegal issue, they are immediately dealt with by Hong Kong authorities.

Having PRC Immigration and Customs officials at WKT in effect would be little different to the Chinese consular staff issuing visa working in HK or the PRC soldiers on guard at their respective barracks, where HK police deal with disturbances because it is in their jurisdiction.

It works in so many other places, there is no reason why it can not work in China. The only problem is not a legal one, but one of image. Where as French and British officials are respected equally in each others country for Eurostar services and USA officials share the same respect in the various countries they operate in, in Hong Kong there is less respect for the PRC officials. If the Hong Kong government can show and demonstrate that the PRC officials would operate only in the same manner as these other proven examples, then public opinion can change. It is like how the Australian and American public can not see the value of a high speed rail network because they have no exposure to how well they work in the countries where they exist. If HK people were more aware of how this situation works well in other countries without any fears of a loss in sovereignty, there would be less fear about this issue.


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> The situation is not different to the various consulates and diplomatic missions already existing in Hong Kong. They validate and judge the suitability which individuals can or can not gain a visa to their respective countries as per their respective laws. Anyone causing any trouble or illegal issue, they are immediately dealt with by Hong Kong authorities.
> 
> Having PRC Immigration and Customs officials at WKT in effect would be little different to the Chinese consular staff issuing visa working in HK or the PRC soldiers on guard at their respective barracks, where HK police deal with disturbances because it is in their jurisdiction.
> 
> It works in so many other places, there is no reason why it can not work in China. The only problem is not a legal one, but one of image. Where as French and British officials are respected equally in each others country for Eurostar services and USA officials share the same respect in the various countries they operate in, in Hong Kong there is less respect for the PRC officials. If the Hong Kong government can show and demonstrate that the PRC officials would operate only in the same manner as these other proven examples, then public opinion can change. It is like how the Australian and American public can not see the value of a high speed rail network because they have no exposure to how well they work in the countries where they exist. If HK people were more aware of how this situation works well in other countries without any fears of a loss in sovereignty, there would be less fear about this issue.


Chinese consular staff in HK are subject to HK laws and cannot ask HK police to enforce PRC law in HK. 

If a passenger is denied entry into China at West Kowloon due to the Chinese "blacklist", HK police cannot forbid the passenger from boarding because that passenger did not violate any HK laws. Hence, the PRC agents at the terminus have no power whatsoever, rendering their check or presence useless.

European examples do not apply because HK has to adhere to the Basic Law, whose clauses forbid any joint immigration facilities enforcing different laws on HK soil. 

This is not an example of how other countries' models can work in HK, but whether the law can allow this to happen. These are 2 very different problems.


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## hkskyline

YannSZ said:


> Even if they don't give access to such a list, it's not a big problem.
> Just take the next train back to Shenzhen and you will be in Futian train station 15 minutes later.


Then joyriders will waste the valuable seats that can otherwise go to fare-paying passengers, knowing they will be bounced back even though they don't have the proper paperwork to cross the border.

Back a few years ago when pregnant women tried all sorts of means to cross and overstay in HK to give birth, they would be able to exploit this loophole to enter HK territory to give birth on the train or squatting at the terminus station before immigration so their child can gain residency.


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## urbanfan89

hkskyline said:


> Chinese consular staff in HK are subject to HK laws and cannot ask HK police to enforce PRC law in HK.
> 
> If a passenger is denied entry into China at West Kowloon due to the Chinese "blacklist", HK police cannot forbid the passenger from boarding because that passenger did not violate any HK laws. Hence, the PRC agents at the terminus have no power whatsoever, rendering their check or presence useless.


The Chinese government would be able to revoke the documents and cancel the tickets - thus turning the passenger into a trespasser who can be removed by HK police under HK law.

This already happens at the airport, where Hong Kong pro-democracy activists who did possess valid HRPs were found on a Chinese government blacklist, had their HRPs revoked, and denied boarding *by airline staff, not HK or PRC border agents* on a flight to Beijing:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/15/hong-kong-protest-leaders-prevented-travelling-beijing

So maybe no PRC agents at WKT are needed after all - the Chinese government simply needs to do what is already done at the airport and update railway staff on any blacklist.


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> Then joyriders will waste the valuable seats that can otherwise go to fare-paying passengers, knowing they will be bounced back even though they don't have the proper paperwork to cross the border


Do they have a legal right to recoup the fare? OK, they have to be accommodated on return trip... but the seat for the rest of the outward trip is vacant.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> Do they have a legal right to recoup the fare? OK, they have to be accommodated on return trip... but the seat for the rest of the outward trip is vacant.


In the airline scenario, the airline will need to pay a penalty if they send a passenger to a destination without the proper visas.

Don't think the legal recourse on the passenger can recoup the regulatory penalty, but rather the fare only.


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## hkskyline

luacstjh98 said:


> It is a real legal issue, yes, but a legal issue that has long been solved by many other nations in the world.
> 
> Remind me, under which provision of the Basic Law are PLA troops allowed to stay in Hong Kong?


http://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_2.html

_Article 14
The Central People's Government shall be responsible for the defence of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.

The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be responsible for the maintenance of public order in the Region.

Military forces stationed by the Central People's Government in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region for defence shall not interfere in the local affairs of the Region. The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region may, when necessary, ask the Central People's Government for assistance from the garrison in the maintenance of public order and in disaster relief.

In addition to abiding by national laws, members of the garrison shall abide by the laws of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.

Expenditure for the garrison shall be borne by the Central People's Government._


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> You are aware of One Country Two Systems, right? That's the fundamental concept China promised Hong Kong when it was handed back from the British. None of the other countries you have listed practice this unique dual system within the same sovereign country.


This shows how little you appreciate devolution in the UK. The process of creating the Welsh and Scottish parliaments and Northern Ireland self rule from 1997 (what a familiar year) is in effect one country, two systems rule. As for tensions about legal repression, you obviously never had a conversation fervent Irish catholic or Scottish nationalist about English lawmakers. Note that there is no separate parliament for England, causing many to complain about the limitations placed by England on the legal powers given to their respective parliaments. Thus there was a referendum on Scottish Independence in 2014 with more current tensions since the Brexit vote.

As for Malaysia and Singapore, there has been constant distrust between those nations since Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. It was the underlying reason for closure of the KTB line through Singapore. However this has not stopped both nations from allowing juxtaposed controls at Woodlands checkpoint and for the future high speed railway.



> Beijing also has ultimate authority to impose its interpretation, and affect Hong Kong's rule of law. We saw that happen in 2016 over another matter. Any attempts to change the laws to allow PRC agents to station on HK soil or any form of PRC law enforcement in HK will be met with great opposition. Is it the continuation of the slippery slope that will erode One Country Two Systems?
> 
> I don't think you understand or appreciate the unique legal framework that safeguards HK's Western system of rule of law and governance over that in the PRC.


I do grasp that Hong Kong has a western style legal system. That is why I know that unlike the mainland, the laws can be created, amended and repealed as required by an effective Legco.



> The politicians are also not stupid. They won't promise something that will backlash badly among the public. The backlash over political harmonization and mainland agents operating in HK against the Basic Law has been very bad in 2016. Any bill to allow PRC agents to work in HK or to enforce PRC law in HK is political suicide right now.


But this does not explain how customs and immigration officials working at WKT would be in anyway different to PLA soldiers or PRC consular staff operating in HK. For the sake of effective and efficient service, it would make logical sense for juxtaposed controls to be established at West Kowloon Terminus, albeit with sufficient and definitive checks and balances on their duties under Hong Kong law. Just as in a similar way that HK officials are allowed to work at Shenzhen Bay.

Negotiations took place, rules were established and safeguards were put in place for Shenzhen Bay to be established. Neither Hong Kong nor the PRC has suffered any detriment since the opening of that border crossing. The same process is possible with West Kowloon Terminus.

It was such negotiations and debates that created the Basic Law in the first place.


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> This shows how little you appreciate devolution in the UK. The process of creating the Welsh and Scottish parliaments and Northern Ireland self rule from 1997 (what a familiar year) is in effect one country, two systems rule. As for tensions about legal repression, you obviously never had a conversation fervent Irish catholic or Scottish nationalist about English lawmakers. Note that there is no separate parliament for England, causing many to complain about the limitations placed by England on the legal powers given to their respective parliaments. Thus there was a referendum on Scottish Independence in 2014 with more current tensions since the Brexit vote.
> 
> As for Malaysia and Singapore, there has been constant distrust between those nations since Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. It was the underlying reason for closure of the KTB line through Singapore. However this has not stopped both nations from allowing juxtaposed controls at Woodlands checkpoint and for the future high speed railway.


All that has no relevance to how the legal systems between Hong Kong and China differ and the arrangement now is meant to keep it that way. Who cares what happens in England and Wales, or Malaysia and Singapore? They don't run on the Basic Law.

If there needs to be a joint immigration checkpoint, then it should be legally built in China.



Short said:


> I do grasp that Hong Kong has a western style legal system. That is why I know that unlike the mainland, the laws can be created, amended and repealed as required by an effective Legco.


Then it sets off a slippery slope of amending laws to harmonize with China, especially on those that compromise our human rights. Any changes in such a way to the legal framework will be met with great resistance and suspicion.



Short said:


> But this does not explain how customs and immigration officials working at WKT would be in anyway different to PLA soldiers or PRC consular staff operating in HK. For the sake of effective and efficient service, it would make logical sense for juxtaposed controls to be established at West Kowloon Terminus, albeit with sufficient and definitive checks and balances on their duties under Hong Kong law. Just as in a similar way that HK officials are allowed to work at Shenzhen Bay.


PRC consular staff abide by Hong Kong law. PRC agents, such as immigration officials, have no authority to enforce PRC laws in Hong Kong. I've said this so many times and yet you still don't understand this key enforcement and jurisdiction concept.

Hong Kong officials are granted special rights to operate at Shenzhen Bay under PRC law. But vice versa does not work under Hong Kong law.

One legal change may seem harmless, but the slippery slope may mean lots more to the detriment afterwards.


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## kunming tiger

hkskyline said:


> Beijing has ultimate authority over the "interpretation" of HK laws but if they blatantly trample all over it, they will never be able to reconcile with Taiwan. HK and Macau were examples Beijing wanted to show that different political ideologies can be respected under the China umbrella. That and also they risk another set of nasty civil disobedience that have surfaced in HK in recent years that have embarrassed Beijing in the international community.
> 
> Probably not a gamble Beijing wants to play with.


 I am not arguing against the reasoning behind your argument, but I would not underestimate Beijing'S resolve , the South China thing is a good example. If they are willing to confront the US in the South China Sea I doubt that a few vocal critics of the central government in HK will scare them off, Legislation can easily be enacted to resolve the situation in HSR terminus. A confronational attitude will beget confrontation. , ultiimately the basic law is a piece of paper. This constant obstructionism is both unreasonable and counter productive and it comes across as such to a neutral observer.


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## luacstjh98

kunming tiger said:


> I am not arguing against the reasoning behind your argument, but I would not underestimate Beijing'S resolve , the South China thing is a good example. If they are willing to confront the US in the South China Sea I doubt that a few vocal critics of the central government in HK will scare them off, Legislation can easily be enacted to resolve the situation in HSR terminus. A confronational attitude will beget confrontation. , ultiimately the basic law is a piece of paper. This constant obstructionism is both unreasonable and counter productive and it comes across as such to a neutral observer.


Much as this reads like PRC propaganda (I mean no offense), I actually have to agree.

The PRC will trample over "one country, two systems" and HK/Macau sovereignty _as much as they want and as much as they like_, since they know nobody's going to stop them, and nobody has the right to stop them, since "one country".

Perhaps it could be sold as a reciprocal agreement, with HK allowing PRC border agents to operate at WKT subject to the PRC's maintenance of HK border agents at Shenzhen Bay. The station and track proper could still belong to HK, with only the customs checkpoint and associated administrative offices leased to PRC officials.

The Basic Law is not set in stone, and while changing it to incorporate such provisions may be unpopular and difficult to stomach, it's not like as if it's already done.

Otherwise, as an interim measure, they can just do what is done with the existing intercity services and just serve Guangzhou/Shanghai/Beijing. However, I understand that this may not be palatable to CRH long term either, since it limits what destinations CRH can serve from WKT. But it could last while they work things out.

Bottom line is, Beijing will find a way, if they really want this to go through.


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## hkskyline

Beijing has been quiet in all this, presumably knowing if they get too vocal pushing for a solution, it will give a perception that One Country Two Systems is failing, among other examples pointing to that lately.

The CRH extension to HK actually is primarily geared towards services to Guangzhou, rather than direct services from HK to other points beyond. We won't have that many destinations to begin with unless we transfer in Guangzhou. This means keeping mainland immigration on PRC soil to be more practical than people initially think. Why most trains from HK will end in Guangzhou is another controversial topic.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> Beijing has been quiet in all this, presumably knowing if they get too vocal pushing for a solution, it will give a perception that One Country Two Systems is failing, among other examples pointing to that lately.
> 
> The CRH extension to HK actually is primarily geared towards services to Guangzhou, rather than direct services from HK to other points beyond. We won't have that many destinations to begin with unless we transfer in Guangzhou. This means keeping mainland immigration on PRC soil to be more practical than people initially think. Why most trains from HK will end in Guangzhou is another controversial topic.


CRH service to Guangzhou is just the short term goal. Without controls at West Kowloon Terminus, it would not make sense to plan anything else. With the current question mark over the implementation of immigration controls at WKT, it would make sense to limit the number of stops within Guangdong if custom controls are needed to be implemented in mainland China. I can not expect the Hong Kong government willing to pay for more and more separate customs and immigration points across China. Plus without controls at WKT, the trains would need to run bonded to their destination, so it would be almost impossible for passengers to board trains at Futian and Shenzhen North for destinations within China.

Just as Futian station has has limited services within Guangdong upon opening, it is now seeing a gradual expansion of services. It is not unreasonable to expect expanded services to Beijing, Wuhan and Shanghai within a few years. The limiting factor is the implementation or not of customs controls at WKT.


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> CRH service to Guangzhou is just the short term goal. Without controls at West Kowloon Terminus, it would not make sense to plan anything else. With the current question mark over the implementation of immigration controls at WKT, it would make sense to limit the number of stops within Guangdong if custom controls are needed to be implemented in mainland China. I can not expect the Hong Kong government willing to pay for more and more separate customs and immigration points across China. Plus without controls at WKT, the trains would need to run bonded to their destination, so it would be almost impossible for passengers to board trains at Futian and Shenzhen North for destinations within China.
> 
> Just as Futian station has has limited services within Guangdong upon opening, it is now seeing a gradual expansion of services. It is not unreasonable to expect expanded services to Beijing, Wuhan and Shanghai within a few years. The limiting factor is the implementation or not of customs controls at WKT.


Which official source gave that opinion?


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> Which official source gave that opinion?


Well the fact that West Kowloon Terminus has been designed with 6 platforms to be designated for Guangdong shuttle services and 9 platforms designated for long distance trains, it certainly indicates a desire to serve destinations beyond Guangzhou and Guangdong from the start. Also the fact that long haul services are factored into the viability reports for the Hong Kong section of the XRL.

Beyond all of the legal arguments, it makes sense that it make financial sense to have a single juxtaposed control point in Hong Kong, rather than duplicating the services at multiple cities across China. To add another city would need to see extra infrastructure being built, manned and serviced, new legal rules set to allow HK officials to work on that site and how to fund the multiple sites. All of which would delay or limit possible expansion to other destinations across mainland China.

It is obvious that the preferable way to travel would be a single non-stop journey to their destination. This is much better than travelling for 15 minutes then having to alight at Futian for customs and immigration before reboarding, breaking up the journey. Onboard controls are impossible due to the short timespan between WKT and Futian. 

The disadvantage of waiting until the destination Mainland city for customs and immigration is that the service would have to remain restricted while enroute, with restrictions passengers being able to board/exit the train within mainland China, such as London-Ashford or Lille-Paris travel is not allowed on Eurostar services for the same legal rationale. A long distance train from Hong Kong to Beijing would be running close to empty near the destination after dropping off passengers at Guangzhou, Wuhan and Shijiazhuang but no one else can board due to immigration and customs issues. This is a common issue with airlines serving several domestic cities along an international service.

With a single control point at WKT, formalities can be processed before/after the service as a seamless part of the overall journey with the train then able to operate like a regular CRH service within mainland China.


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## hkskyline

So all your thoughts are pure speculation, and we don't spend billions building railways on speculation.

The closest idea of an actual schedule was reported here : http://news.mingpao.com/pns/dailynews/web_tc/article/20160503/s00001/1462212480271

Not even 10 trains a day will go beyond Guangzhou out of the 190 scheduled. So are we going to mount a law change and risk damaging One Country Two Systems for a handful of trains? Just send them through mainland immigration checks in Shenzhen / Guangzhou.


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## luacstjh98

That's the "short term goal" many of us were talking about.

Do you really think CRH is going to be content running that schedule for the next 30 years? I don't think so.


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## hkskyline

luacstjh98 said:


> That's the "short term goal" many of us were talking about.
> 
> Do you really think CRH is going to be content running that schedule for the next 30 years? I don't think so.


By then perhaps rail would be obsolete.


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## 00Zy99

hkskyline said:


> By then perhaps rail would be obsolete.


That's what they said 50 years ago.

Somehow, I very much doubt it.


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## hkskyline

00Zy99 said:


> That's what they said 50 years ago.
> 
> Somehow, I very much doubt it.


Who would have thought we can communicate on the WWW 30 years ago. Change happens very quickly these days.

Add to that, once the military releases all that airspace to civilian flights, HSR will suffer a major setback.

The current proposed schedule gives little reason to justify a significant law change to accomodate for joint immigration for a handful of trains a day. Worry about it when the right time comes.

Good we didn't end up with all those zeppelin landing docks because someone thought they'd be popular 30 years down the road.


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## luacstjh98

hkskyline said:


> Who would have thought we can communicate on the WWW 30 years ago. Change happens very quickly these days.
> 
> Add to that, once the military releases all that airspace to civilian flights, HSR will suffer a major setback.
> 
> The current proposed schedule gives little reason to justify a significant law change to accomodate for joint immigration for a handful of trains a day. Worry about it when the right time comes.
> 
> Good we didn't end up with all those zeppelin landing docks because someone thought they'd be popular 30 years down the road.


Mainland China and Europe have both recognized rail as the way forward compared to air travel. Otherwise, why do you think they're investing so much into rail, even though as you say it may be extinct in 30 years? Note that I mention Europe, which already has a pretty well-developed intra-Schengen flight network, but yet they're still investing in HSR. Or Southeast Asia. Or even the US, which is taking baby steps towards developing a HSR network.

Okay, maybe the current proposed schedule may justify keeping PRC agents out of HK for the short term. But then again what if CRH wants to expand service 5, 10 years down the road? We'll be having this conversation again. Or perhaps we might not, since there's a very real chance that Beijing flips the bird at the HK nationalists and just forces through a bill in the Legco to allow PRC agents to operate at WKT anyway.

Or perhaps, by then, let's say HK becomes an independent country and one country two systems gets thrown out the window. This conversation would then still need to happen, Special Administrative Region or not, and such obstructionist tendencies aren't helping. No one can really win here, so there's a need to compromise.

As mentioned earlier with all the talk about US preclearance and whatnot, this is a solved problem. It's only causing trouble because of HK nationalism and NIMBYism.

I guess you're going to repeat the same talking points no matter how much we discuss this topic, so if you refuse to even listen, I really see no point in so many of us trying to make our points heard.


----------



## hkskyline

luacstjh98 said:


> Mainland China and Europe have both recognized rail as the way forward compared to air travel. Otherwise, why do you think they're investing so much into rail, even though as you say it may be extinct in 30 years? Note that I mention Europe, which already has a pretty well-developed intra-Schengen flight network, but yet they're still investing in HSR. Or Southeast Asia. Or even the US, which is taking baby steps towards developing a HSR network.


Unlike Europe, China's heavy restrictions of its domestic airspace for military use means flying domestically would not work when a mid-size city would have tens of millions of people. Once that is relaxed, Beijing-Shanghai the biggest commercial route) would likely tilt to air travel's favour, and render many of the long distance routes we see opening lately obsolete.

Also keep in mind China's 3 key cities are much further apart than their European counterparts, so I tend to be wary of these trans-continental comparisons on the mere surface.

But this isn't a thread on HSR's viability and future, but rather whether HK needs to change its laws and allow PRC agents in for the sake of 7-8 trains out of 190?

Southeast Asia has seen pitiful developments in HSR for geopolitical reasons. It has been many years of talk and minimal progress.



luacstjh98 said:


> Okay, maybe the current proposed schedule may justify keeping PRC agents out of HK for the short term. But then again what if CRH wants to expand service 5, 10 years down the road? We'll be having this conversation again. Or perhaps we might not, since there's a very real chance that Beijing flips the bird at the HK nationalists and just forces through a bill in the Legco to allow PRC agents to operate at WKT anyway.


If they really wanted to do this then they would have changed the laws years ago when the shovels went into the ground and not wait until its imminent opening to stir up a political debate.



luacstjh98 said:


> As mentioned earlier with all the talk about US preclearance and whatnot, this is a solved problem. It's only causing trouble because of HK nationalism and NIMBYism.


This is not even a case of either. You are just pulling recent news stories as excuses. This is a legal question, and the Basic Law doesn't allow such an arrangement, and the US, Canada, or the UAE don't run on the Basic Law hence their preclearance arrangements are entirely irrelevant.

Trying to change the Basic Law which enshrines HK's identity will indeed result in a huge social backlash, fueling nationalism, but not NIMBYism. The shovels are in the ground already so the villagers that stood in the way have been cleared out long ago.



luacstjh98 said:


> I guess you're going to repeat the same talking points no matter how much we discuss this topic, so if you refuse to even listen, I really see no point in so many of us trying to make our points heard.


You are among the people here who don't listen and keep using irrelevant examples while ignoring what the law says. It's actually a very easy legal question, but with a not-so-easy solution TBD.


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> So all your thoughts are pure speculation, and we don't spend billions building railways on speculation.
> 
> The closest idea of an actual schedule was reported here : http://news.mingpao.com/pns/dailynews/web_tc/article/20160503/s00001/1462212480271
> 
> Not even 10 trains a day will go beyond Guangzhou out of the 190 scheduled. So are we going to mount a law change and risk damaging One Country Two Systems for a handful of trains? Just send them through mainland immigration checks in Shenzhen / Guangzhou.


Hardly speculation when it is from the MTR's own documents. 15,000 passengers per day travelling to destinations beyond Guangzhou in the first year of operation (albeit at the originally expected 2016), expected to increase to 25,300 by 2031. Essentially around 15% of all passengers expected to travel through WKT. A single train of 1,600 passengers is just as valid as multiple shuttles with a few hundred people each.

Now the cost of hosting HK immigration and customs controls in multiple cites, such as Futian, Shenzhen North and Guangzhou South is at least double the costs of a single control point at WKT. To expand services, the costs would expand in tandem with that. That is hardly speculation, it is obvious what option is cheaper.

More than half of the platforms are designated for long distance use, thus you want make sure they are used efficiently to ensure the viability of the station. 

However you can not plan for more long distance services when the circumstances for how those services would be handled. If passengers are expected to use only shuttle services to Guangzhou/Shenzhen before transferring to long-distance services for immigration and customs reasons, then it is useless to plan for direct long-distance trains from HK. The situation stays as it is currently, with only shuttle trains crossing the border.

Are any mainland CRH stations designed to handle immigration and customs? No, then significant renovations and changes may be required in the stations required to host them. That is a natural expectation and not speculation.

If controls are allowed at WKT, then it is easy to add more services to the schedule as demand allows because of the simplified process of using the the single station designed from the outset for that purpose. 

Until the certainty has been established about the legal status of the immigration and control at West Kowloon Terminus is made clear, then train scheduling of either cross border shuttles or long distance trains are in doubt due to how the passengers for those services will need to be processed. So once we know for sure, planning can not progress too far in any sense.


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> Hardly speculation when it is from the MTR's own documents. 15,000 passengers per day travelling to destinations beyond Guangzhou in the first year of operation (albeit at the originally expected 2016), expected to increase to 25,300 by 2031. Essentially around 15% of all passengers expected to travel through WKT. A single train of 1,600 passengers is just as valid as multiple shuttles with a few hundred people each.


You are forgetting the MTR indicated the existing thru-train service from Hung Hom will be kept, and with the travel times from West Kowloon to Guangzhou reaching upwards to an hour, it is quite clear the Guangzhou East "slower" service will still be very competitive.



Short said:


> Now the cost of hosting HK immigration and customs controls in multiple cites, such as Futian, Shenzhen North and Guangzhou South is at least double the costs of a single control point at WKT. To expand services, the costs would expand in tandem with that. That is hardly speculation, it is obvious what option is cheaper.


Who says you need to have joint immigration facilities in various Chinese cities? Hong Kong immigration will be cleared in Hong Kong, while PRC immigration will be cleared in Chinese cities.



Short said:


> More than half of the platforms are designated for long distance use, thus you want make sure they are used efficiently to ensure the viability of the station.


You have a source for this arrangement?



Short said:


> However you can not plan for more long distance services when the circumstances for how those services would be handled. If passengers are expected to use only shuttle services to Guangzhou/Shenzhen before transferring to long-distance services for immigration and customs reasons, then it is useless to plan for direct long-distance trains from HK. The situation stays as it is currently, with only shuttle trains crossing the border.


From the schedule seen and reported so far, direct long-distance trains will be few and rare. That makes sense. Why train when you can fly to Shanghai and Beijing? That sort of distance doesn't justify taking the train. Wuhan is probably the furthest distance that can compete with flying. If that day comes when people abandon airplanes, then they can use the demand argument to push for a change in the Basic Law.



Short said:


> Are any mainland CRH stations designed to handle immigration and customs? No, then significant renovations and changes may be required in the stations required to host them. That is a natural expectation and not speculation.


Saving money for the PRC is not a justification to change the Basic Law and damage One Country Two Systems.


----------



## 00Zy99

hkskyline said:


> Unlike Europe, China's heavy restrictions of its domestic airspace for military use means flying domestically would not work when a mid-size city would have tens of millions of people. Once that is relaxed, Beijing-Shanghai the biggest commercial route) would likely tilt to air travel's favour, and render many of the long distance routes we see opening lately obsolete.
> 
> Also keep in mind China's 3 key cities are much further apart than their European counterparts, so I tend to be wary of these trans-continental comparisons on the mere surface.


This assumes that the PRC will lift those restrictions. In an era of increasing environmental concern, an argument against allowing kerosene-burning gas turbine engines to run amok in the stratosphere sounds rather compelling, especially when cyber-presence reduces the demand for immediate contact and relaxes time constraints. Not to mention avoiding the tremendous cost and land consumption of building all of the necessary airports.


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> You are forgetting the MTR indicated the existing thru-train service from Hung Hom will be kept, and with the travel times from West Kowloon to Guangzhou reaching upwards to an hour, it is quite clear the Guangzhou East "slower" service will still be very competitive.


The figures I quoted are for West Kowloon Terminus only. They are part of the Operational Viability Report for the station. Original forecast was for WKT to handle 99,000 passengers per day during 2016 (based on original completion date), with 84,000 passengers using Guangzhou Shuttle services and 15,000 long distance passengers beyond Guangzhou. 2021 has an estimate of 119,700 passengers in total with 100,800 shuttle passengers and 18,900 long haul passengers. 2031 figures were put at 160,000 passengers per day, 134,700 shuttle passengers and 25,300 long haul passengers. These are outbound figures only departing from West Kowloon Terminus with long haul services clearly defined as 'Beyond the Pearl River Delta'.

It is not related to Hung Hom and any continued services from that station. Through train passenger numbers in the report for 2016 were indicated to drop to 5,200 passengers (a -6.6% fall in numbers), with the XRL in operation.



> Who says you need to have joint immigration facilities in various Chinese cities? Hong Kong immigration will be cleared in Hong Kong, while PRC immigration will be cleared in Chinese cities.


At the moment no arrangement is yet known. Many possible combinations are being investigated and explored as you well know. Nothing can be ruled in or ruled out as the definitive outcome until the Legco deals with this issue.



> You have a source for this arrangement?


Yes, the MTR Express Rail Link website. Which states as follows

_The Terminus and major facilities will be mainly underground on four main floor levels accommodating:


Customs, Immigration and Quarantine (CIQ) facilities
Departure lounges
Passenger arrival and departure halls
*Underground track area with 9 long-haul platforms and 6 shuttle platforms*
Duty-free outlets
Food and beverage outlets
Station parking and loading facilities
_
Plus it is on the plans for the station. Which are physically different, because of the short commuter nature of the shuttle trains and the long length of the long distance trains. So they could not be quickly or conveniently reconfigured for increased Shuttle use. There has been a deliberate independent passenger flow process for the separate shuttle and long haul trains built into the station's design.





In case you missed it, look at the first facts given in this official video about WKT. It states exactly the intended platform arrangements.




> From the schedule seen and reported so far, direct long-distance trains will be few and rare. That makes sense. Why train when you can fly to Shanghai and Beijing? That sort of distance doesn't justify taking the train. Wuhan is probably the furthest distance that can compete with flying. If that day comes when people abandon airplanes, then they can use the demand argument to push for a change in the Basic Law.


There is no defined destination for any long haul high speed service yet. Who said the only long distance services would be Beijing or Shanghai? Beijing would most likely be the longest service departing from WKT, so it would be the best example of train having to run empty near the end of it's journey due to immigration and custom constraints, thus I gave it as an example. Despite this, there is a viable market for such long distance trains departing from Shenzhen.

4 hour or less services to Chongqing, Chengdu, Guiyang, Guilin, Hainan, Xiamen, Changsha, Ganzhou and Nanchang are all possible, plus others. All are competitive with air travel for time and could prove popular with Hong Kong holiday makers and business people alike. The scheduling & reliability of the high speed train network could prove popular and see a reduction in air services from HK to the mainland on some routes. 



> Saving money for the PRC is not a justification to change the Basic Law and damage One Country Two Systems.


No, it just costing Hong Kong more and more, with further delays and cost overruns, which would be delayed further until the mainland stations could be made operational to suit. Hong Kong does not just lose out in direct construction costs either. Naturally it is Hong Kong's best interest to maximise the potential of West Kowloon Terminus. It needs to make it attractive to tourist and business travellers alike, who do not want to be inconvenienced. It would be better to hop directly on a train bound for your intended destination, without having to use a intermediate shuttle service or get off the train shortly after departing HK to complete formalities. This will have an impact on the HK economy in business and tourist terms. Without juxtaposed controls there would be further deadweight to the HK Government's investment in West Kowloon Terminus, because all of the platforms for long haul trains not being utilised as designed because of the fewer long haul services, if any are served. Especially if HK pushes for all travellers to change trains at Shenzhen/Guangzhou.

It not about saving the PRC any money. It is about saving money, improving the economy and increasing the maximum possible value for Hong Kong.

Lastly, with out any legislation being put before the Legco for consideration, no one can say if it would be damaging to the Basic Law. Can you define the exact damage that you are so fearful of? 

At the moment, it is "what if's" and "but's" however until the intended changes have been proposed, then no one can say what the outcome or effects will be. To say that no change is possible and no debate is even allowed to be considered is just as damaging to Hong Kong. Wait until the legislation is actually tabled before commenting on what it may or may not do.

So far 6 national laws have been placed into Annex 3 of the Basic Law and life in Hong Kong has not screeched to a halt yet. Wait until we see the full scope of what is proposed at WKT, to see if it is limited in law just to that site or if it is ambiguous to include other areas of HK, both in a physical and legal sense. 

It may turn out to be a storm in a tea cup or your fears may be justified, no one can tell at this time.


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## Dungxuandieu

Woah ngạc nhiên thật


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## 00Zy99

Please write in English in the international forum.


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## hkskyline

*Visit by Hong Kong ministers expected to iron out deadlock over express rail link joint facility*
Governments of both sides have expressed desire to negotiate deal on co-location arrangements
March 13, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

The discussion deadlock over a joint immigration facility at the West Kowloon terminus for the express rail could see a breakthrough on Tuesday.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Professor Anthony Cheung Bing-leung and Secretary for Justice Rimsky Yuen Kwok-keung flew to Beijing on Monday to meet mainland officials for negotiations.

They had a two-hour meeting inside the State Council’s Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office on Monday but did not take questions after the meeting.

Before discussions, Cheung said in Beijing: “I hope through further discussions, we will soon have arrangements that both sides find suitable and feasible.”

Critics have expressed concern that the proposed co-location would contravene Article 18 of the Basic Law, which stated that national or mainland laws should not be applied in the city. The only exception was if such laws were listed in Annex III of the min-constitution.

The Hong Kong government said earlier that the plan for a joint immigration facility at the West Kowloon Terminus for the HK$84.4 billion rail link would be presented to the public before the end of the current administration’s term in June.

Officials said that without a joint checkpoint, the 48-minute journey on the new line between Hong Kong and Guangzhou would take at least another 30 minutes, effectively defeating the purpose of the rail.

Such a co-location agreement was in fact signed about a decade ago for Hong Kong immigration officers to operate at the Shenzhen Bay Control Point.

Cheung said on Monday that he was aware some suggestions had been floated by the public, but he still needed to review them.

Cheung and Yuen are expected to meet the press to offer an update on Tuesday on the discussions.


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## hkskyline

kunming tiger said:


> democracy at its finest.


Nothing to do with democracy. The Basic Law was drafted and implemented without a referendum for the citizens to decide Hong Kong's fate. It was a behind the scenes handshake between London and Beijing. Hardly democratic at all.


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## hkskyline

Source : http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip...ting-trip-hong-kong-singapore-thailand-5.html


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## bearb

aquaticko said:


> Boy, do I ever feel like a stupid American reading through this thread. Here I was, thinking Shenzhen and Hong Kong are, what, ~20km apart? Should be a simple matter to have passport checks prior to boarding in either direction; build a short high-speed line; job done.
> 
> Instead, I walk into the room hearing conversations about no less than national sovereignty. Oi vey.
> 
> Suffice to say, knowing that national sovereignty _is_ a big PRC-HK issue, I'd not be surprised if this connection takes a lot longer to bring in to service due to legal reasons, even if the line is physically ready very soon.


From the point of view as a passenger, to use the section of the railway between Shenzhen and Hong Kong for shuttle services will be stupid.

This line will not only serve the two cities.
It was constructed as Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong High-speed Railway. It is now a part of Beijing-Hong Kong High-speed Railway. It connects to the major network of Chinese High-speed Railway System.

The simplest way to get services running will be let all the trains from all over the country stop at Shenzhen North Station, and everyone off. Then everyone go through Mainland Chinese Border Control, and wait for the next shuttle train to Hong Kong West Kowloon Station. They board the train again, then get off the train and go through the border again.

But apparently this is the least convenient way for passengers who wants to go to/leave Hong Kong by train.

There are international agreements running sufficiently, such as UK-France-Belgium mode for Eurostar. And the argument in Hong Kong is a bit dramatic to me.


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## kunming tiger

hkskyline said:


> Nothing to do with democracy. The Basic Law was drafted and implemented without a referendum for the citizens to decide Hong Kong's fate. It was a behind the scenes handshake between London and Beijing. Hardly democratic at all.


 The political system in HK like any other system around the world is there to reinforce the status quo, to protect powerful existing interests and their various agendas.

Every once in a while a populist based movement comes along to give the status quo a shake. The resulting fallout is called reform until self interests entrench themselves in power. Public participation in the political process is encouraged but not to the extend that they get to exercise the levers of real power.

The political arena in the west is more along the lines of theater, a political soap opera that serves as media fodder for the public while real decisions are made elsewhere. 

The basic law is fine in principle the issues arise when you try to apply it in reality where each self interest group will define it in a wway that best serves their interests.


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## hkskyline

bearb said:


> There are international agreements running sufficiently, such as UK-France-Belgium mode for Eurostar. And the argument in Hong Kong is a bit dramatic to me.


Even with Brexit, those countries are on much better terms with each other than Hong Kong with China these days.


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## hkskyline

*Shenzhen model for joint checkpoint at cross-border railway won’t work in Hong Kong, minister says*
But mainland law enforcers will be able to exercise mainland laws in designated areas of West Kowloon station
April 15, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

The arrangement allowing mainland Chinese law enforcers to work at the cross-border express train terminus in Kowloon when it opens next year will not be a direct copy of the joint checkpoints at Shenzhen Bay, Hong Kong’s transport minister said on Saturday.

But Professor Anthony Cheung Bing-leung said the officers would be able to exercise mainland laws within designated areas at the station, although he did not specify the extent of their powers.

The Beijing and Hong Kong governments have still not reached a deal on checkpoint arrangements for the railway, which is scheduled to open in the third quarter of 2018.

Both sides say a joint checkpoint is necessary as having counters on each side of the border would lengthen travel times and defeat the purpose of a high-speed railway. Without a joint checkpoint the 48-minute journey time to Guangzhou on the new line would take at least 30 minutes longer.

But critics warn that allowing mainland officers to exercise immigration controls and security checks will breach the Basic Law, Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, which expressly forbids the exercise of mainland laws in Hong Kong.

“The question we are handling [with mainland authorities] is how the [mainland officers’] exercise of mainland laws in Hong Kong can comply with the spirit of ‘one country, two systems’ and the Basic Law,” Cheung said in a radio programme.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...el-joint-checkpoint-cross-border-railway-wont


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## hkskyline

Hongkong Sky100 by geigerwe, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Hong Kong-mainland rail link terminus ‘a total waste’ without a joint checkpoint, says ex-justice minister*
Basic Law Committee vice-chairman Elsie Leung Oi-sie says the whole design of the West Kowloon terminus was based on the checkpoint
May 14, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Basic Law Committee vice-chairwoman Elsie Leung Oi-sie said the West Kowloon terminus of the HK$84.4 billion cross-border rail link would have to be torn down and redesigned if it did not include joint checkpoint control.

Leung, also Hong Kong’s former justice minister, said the terminus of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link had been specifically designed to accommodate the joint checkpoint.

“[The project] had been approved for a long time and the West Kowloon terminus has also been built based on this concept,” she said during an interview with Commercial Radio on Sunday.

“So, if we don’t have joint checkpoint arrangements at West Kowloon, [the project] would be a total waste. We may have to bomb it and rebuild another one or re-plan the land use. How could you explain to the public the some HK$80 billion [invested in the rail]?”

Beijing and Hong Kong still have not reached a deal on checkpoint arrangements for the high-speed rail, which is scheduled to open in the third quarter of 2018. The Hong Kong government has said it hopes to announce a decision by the end of June, when the current administration’s term ends.

Both sides have said a joint checkpoint is necessary because having counters on each side of the border would lengthen travel times and defeat the purpose of a high-speed railway.


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## Short

A nice balanced article over the joint-immigration facility debate at West Kowloon Terminus



> *How Hong Kong can gain from joint immigration checks on express rail link
> Tony Kwok says a joint customs facility would mean faster and easier access to key mainland cities, benefiting not only commuters but also Hong Kong’s economic future, in view of mega projects like the belt and road and Greater Bay Area
> 
> South China Morning Post
> PUBLISHED : Wednesday, 17 May, 2017, 2:48pm
> 
> Author: Tony Kwok
> 
> INSIGHT & OPINION*
> 
> 
> One thing we can be certain of is that, when the Hong Kong government releases proposals for a joint immigration checkpoint for the cross-border express rail, opposition legislators will go all out to block it.
> 
> The benefits of the Guangzhou-Hong Kong express rail link are obvious. Getting from Hong Kong to the nearest express rail terminus in Shenzhen will take less than 15 minutes, with a maximum frequency of one train every three minutes. Over 100,000 people are expected to travel on the line every day, so imagine the total time saved. It will also give Hong Kong direct access to mainland cities through the 20,000km national high-speed rail network, without the need to change trains. This will make it more convenient for mainland citizens to travel to Hong Kong, thus facilitating tourism.
> 
> It is clear that Hong Kong needs closer integration with the mainland for future economic prosperity. The express rail project is particularly timely, given the Belt and Road Initiative and the Greater Bay Area project, as it puts Hong Kong within close reach of key mainland cities. The strategic significance and potential economic benefit are enormous, so really there is no reason to object to the setting up of a joint immigration checkpoint so as to maximise its efficiency.
> 
> Actually, the opposition can only come up with two arguments, both weak. First, they say setting aside a small area for the mainland immigration checkpoint is akin to giving up Hong Kong’s sovereignty. Second, they say mainland law enforcement should not be allowed to exercise its power in Hong Kong.
> 
> Article 7 of the Basic Law states: “The land and natural resources with the Hong Kong SAR shall be state property”. The city government is only responsible for management of the land. Hence, it would be legitimate for the central government, if need be, to set aside an area for use by mainland customs, just as some of our land is currently being used by the PLA and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
> 
> As for law enforcement agencies exercising their function in another jurisdiction, there are several international examples, especially on joint immigration checkpoints: such as Canada/US; Ireland/US; UK/France and UK/Belgium.
> 
> A joint checkpoint has been in existence for years in Shenzhen Bay, with operating legislation going through the Legislative Council without objection. To further ease the mind of sceptics, I propose that mainland customs and immigration officials stationed at the checkpoint should only be allowed to exercise their power within the restricted area – and on customs and immigration law, not any other mainland criminal law – and that their movements be restricted in the way the PLA garrison’s is.
> 
> The best way to quieten the opposition is through the pressure of public opinion. A recent survey carried out by the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong found 63 per cent public support for a joint checkpoint. The support rate would have been much higher if the survey had covered regular cross-border commuters.
> 
> Once it announces its proposals for express rail immigration and customs co-location, I suggest the city government carry out a survey of commuters at the Lo Wu, Lok Ma Chau and Shenzhen Bay border crossings, asking whether they support a joint checkpoint.
> 
> I believe public support will be overwhelming and therefore deny the opposition any excuse to raise objections.
> 
> Joint customs facilities will greatly enhance the efficiency of the immigration procedure and save everyone a lot of time.
> 
> _Tony Kwok is an honorary fellow and adjunct professor at HKU SPACE and council member of the Chinese Association of Hong Kong & Macau Studies_
> 
> Original Article


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## Sopomon

Sure - if balanced to you means arguing entirely for one side of the debate and belittling genuine concerns.


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## hkskyline

*Don’t view joint checkpoint at cross-border railway negatively, Hong Kong’s justice minister tells public*
Rimsky Yuen says allowing mainland officers to operate in city will still comply with ‘one country, two systems’ formula
May 25, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Secretary for Justice Rimsky Yuen Kwok-keung has urged people not to hold negative views on a joint checkpoint arrangement at the cross-border railway that will allow officials from mainland China to exercise immigration controls and security checks.

He stressed the law enforcement model would comply with the city’s “one country, two systems” governing system.

But he declined to disclose further details of the proposal, which is expected to be tabled to the Legislative Council for approval next month.

The Hong Kong government has been working with the mainland authorities to resolve the law enforcement arrangement for a joint immigration facility at the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, which will start operating late next year.

Pan-democratic legislators claim that allowing mainland officers to enforce national laws on Hong Kong soil would violate the Basic Law, the mini-constitution that enshrines the city’s freedoms.

“Whether it’s the central government officials or the Hong Kong officials, we have always worked towards the consensus that the joint immigration checkpoint will be operated in accordance with the Basic Law and one country, two systems,” Yuen said during a trip to London.

“It is important to understand the nature of a joint checkpoint and why we do that, and not to view the matter negatively.”

The Post reported earlier this week that mainland officers would be allowed to fully enforce national laws in the immigration hall and on express trains in Hong Kong, according to lawmaker and National People’s Congress deputy Michael Tien Puk-sun, who said he had learnt of the latest development from his sources.

Tien said Beijing and Hong Kong had reached an agreement that a mainland restricted zone would be created in the West Kowloon terminus, which would include part of the hall and be extended to cover the rail tracks from the Hong Kong border to the terminus.

Democratic Party chairman Wu Chi-wai said he opposed any arrangement that would grant mainland officers enforcement powers in Hong Kong.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...nt-checkpoint-cross-border-railway-negatively


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## hkskyline

*Longer wait ahead for solution to dispute over high-speed rail linking Hong Kong to Guangzhou*
Transport chief says proposal on contentious joint immigration facility may not be ready before new government takes over
June 2, 2017 
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

With only 28 days to go before its term ends, the outgoing Hong Kong administration has failed to come up with a solution to the dispute over whether mainland immigration officers should be allowed to operate on the Hong Kong side for the high-speed rail link to Guangzhou. 

Backtracking on an earlier pledge, transport minister Anthony Cheung Bing-leung on Friday admitted that he could no longer guarantee a workable plan on the joint immigration facility at the West Kowloon terminus before the new government took over on July 1.

“Now I can’t say [I will deliver a proposal this month] because we are still in discussion with the mainland authorities,” he said.

Cheung and justice chief Rimsky Yuen Kwok-keung had earlier made that promise, with undersecretary for transport and housing Yau Shing-mu saying the contentious issue, involving the enforcement of mainland laws on Hong Kong soil, should not be left to the next government to fix.

Time is running out for the government to iron out all the legal issues concerning the co-location arrangement as the HK$84.4 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link is expected to launch in the third quarter of next year.


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## hkskyline

*Express rail link joint checkpoint at West Kowloon is the efficient choice for travellers*
Bernard Chan says fears over mainland officials exercising their powers at a joint checkpoint are exaggerated, as all such a set-up will bring is fast and convenient travel for cross-border passengers
June 8, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

The express railway linking West Kowloon with Shenzhen and Guangzhou has hit various problems since construction began in 2010. These include the eviction of residents from rural sites, technical difficulties and cost overruns.

The project undoubtedly brings major potential benefits. For example, getting to Guangdong and a range of adjoining regions beyond the Pearl River Delta will become far easier and quicker, opening up new economic and lifestyle options for Hong Kong people.

However, one pressing problem remains: the location of the mainland immigration and other border control facilities. With Hong Kong’s current administration now in its final weeks, this will be a top priority for Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor after she is sworn in as chief executive on July 1.

One option – favoured by the government – is setting up mainland as well as Hong Kong checkpoints at the rail link’s West Kowloon terminus. Critics are strongly opposed. Obviously, there are complicated legal aspects. However, officials are confident that the legal technicalities can be resolved.

The basic fear of the opponents of checkpoint co-location relates to the principle of mainland officers exercising their powers at the terminus. Critics say this sets a dangerous precedent that could infringe upon local jurisdiction. The implication is that this could threaten the rights and freedoms of Hong Kong people.

I think the main problem here is one of perception. Co-location is easily the most practical way for travellers to clear boundary checks on the new system. The principle is already in use here. When you enter Hong Kong at the Shenzhen Bay checkpoint, you are still physically on the mainland even after passing through Hong Kong immigration and customs.

More : http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight...-link-joint-checkpoint-west-kowloon-efficient


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## hkskyline

Hong Kong by Philip Karstadt, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Hong Kong must reach deal this year on operating cross-border railway, MTR boss warns*


Frederick Ma expresses confidence in new transport chief but says it will be a joke if plan for a joint checkpoint in West Kowloon falls through
June 22, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

An operating agreement for the HK$84.4 billion high-speed railway line between Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Guangzhou must be finalised this year to reduce uncertainty, the chairman of the MTR Corp has told the government.

Frederick Ma Si-hang also said it would be a “joke” if the controversial co-location arrangement – allowing passengers to clear mainland China’s customs and immigration in the city – eventually fell through as the new administration took over.

He admitted that delays meant a deal could not be signed with the current government, whose term ends on June 30. But pressure is building as the line is due to open in the third quarter of next year.

A deal “must” be finalised by the end of this year, Ma emphasised.

“There’s still a few months, but the faster the better because we’re talking about 800 to 1,000 employees manning [West Kowloon] station,” he said.
“We need to recruit people and provide relevant training. Training has actually begun for train drivers, but we still need a lot more operational staff.”

But he did not expect issues to arise from the new government, giving his vote of confidence to incoming transport and housing chief Frank Chan Fan.


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## hkskyline

*'Difficult' co-location talks heat up summer*
July 7, 2017
The Standard _Excerpt_

The Express Rail Link's co-location arrangement proposal will be presented to the public for discussion this summer, Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor said.

Since the link is scheduled to be put to use in the third quarter of next year, the arrangement regarding co-location should be ready before summer next year, Lam told a media gathering yesterday.

"If I could choose not to launch the co-location discussion, I will definitely delay it," Lam said.

"But the express rail cannot lie there idle, so we have to overcome the hard parts since there are no other choices."

She said she was not worried about the discussions harming her public approval.

"The public approval rate has always been insignificant for me, as things that should be done must be done, just that some from the legal sector affirmed that co-location must be a breach of the Basic Law."

Basic Law Committee chairman Li Fei said last month that the co-location arrangement would "definitely" follow the model in the border checkpoint of the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Corridor.

Lam also made suggestions on improving communications with the Legislative Council, as she believes the notice period for any oral questions in Legco should be shortened.


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## mrsmartman

Will there be any loop tracks for the terminal?


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## K_

Why is there actually an immigration checkpoint? Isn't Hong Kong part of China?


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## mrsmartman

mrsmartman said:


> Will there be any loop tracks for the terminal?


Having a set of loop tracks in the New Terminal can help turn trains faster. For example:










Source: http://imgur.com/TUhJYyL


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## 00Zy99

The terminal will be underground, which would make a loop MUCH more expensive.

Also, with MU sets, the ability to terminal stations to change ends is much greater. Witness the new South Ferry station in Manhattan.


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## jchk

K_ said:


> Why is there actually an immigration checkpoint? Isn't Hong Kong part of China?


While Hong Kong is indeed part of China, it is a Special Administrative Region, with its own legal system, currency, taxes, Olympic team etc. From a customs perspective, they might as well be separate countries...

Here's a mediocre phone snap from earlier today:


Xiqu Centre and HSR (i) by jezze0410, on Flickr


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## luacstjh98

00Zy99 said:


> Also, with MU sets, the ability to terminal stations to change ends is much greater. Witness the new South Ferry station in Manhattan.


South Ferry is only a single-track loop, that's why it has such limited capacity.

A more apt comparison would be the WTC PATH station, which is also a single-track loop but expands to six tracks within the station itself.


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## 00Zy99

luacstjh98 said:


> South Ferry is only a single-track loop, that's why it has such limited capacity.
> 
> A more apt comparison would be the WTC PATH station, which is also a single-track loop but expands to six tracks within the station itself.


Touche.

The matter of additional underground construction driving up the cost remains, though.


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## ccdk

3 HSR trains arrived in HK to start testing


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## skyridgeline

mrsmartman said:


> Having a set of loop tracks in the New Terminal *can help turn trains faster*. For example:
> 
> ... [/IMG]


The dwell time at the HK station will likely be ~5 minutes regardless.


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## hkskyline

*No idea how joint immigration checkpoint for China rail link can fit with Hong Kong law, ex-Legco president says*
Jasper Tsang says he is waiting for the government to come up with solutions to thorny issue, which threatens to derail benefits of major infrastructure project
July 13, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

A former president of Hong Kong’s legislature says he “cannot think of how” a controversial plan for joint law enforcement with the mainland at the Hong Kong terminal for an express rail link could fit with the city’s mini-constitution.

Jasper Tsang Yok-sing, also a founding chairman of Hong Kong’s largest pro-government party, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong, said he was waiting for the government to enlighten him on possible solutions.

His comments came just days after Hong Kong’s new leader Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor warned that the benefits of the railway to Guangzhou “would be undermined” without immigration checkpoints run by both Hong Kong and mainland authorities at the West Kowloon station.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, due to open next year, will pose the first major challenge for Lam’s administration, facing as it does major opposition from pan-democratic lawmakers in the Legislative Council. The new government plans to table a bill outlining the law enforcement plans after Legco’s summer break.

Under Article 18 of Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, the Basic Law, mainland laws can only be applied in Hong Kong if they are related to defence or foreign affairs, or are “matters outside the limits of the city’s autonomy”. Such laws must be listed in Annex III of the Basic Law, the article states.

In an interview with former Democratic Party chairwoman Emily Lau Wai-hing on Thursday, Tsang was asked how “co-location” of checkpoints could be allowed under Hong Kong law.

“I can only say I cannot think of [an answer] ... but at least Lam and her principal officials have said clearly that they will find a proposal that fits the Basic Law,” said Tsang, who oversaw the passing of countless pieces of legislation as Legco president between 2008 and last year.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...nt-immigration-checkpoint-china-rail-link-can


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## hkskyline

*Lam issues warning on high-speed link*
July 9, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

The design of Hong Kong’s high-speed train was unveiled on Sunday, as the city’s leader Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor warned the benefits of an express link to the mainland “will be hugely undermined” without the controversial joint law enforcement at its West Kowloon terminus.

Lam touched on the sensitive topic of the co-location of immigration checkpoints as she pledged that the arrangement, to be rolled out soon, would comply with the “one country, two systems” principle and the Basic Law, the mini-constitution guaranteeing the city’s high degree of autonomy.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan is due to disclose details of the co-location arrangements on Tuesday. Lam’s administration is also expected to mount a publicity campaign for the cross-border railway this week.

The chief executive issued the warning after inspecting an express train at Shek Kong, the first one delivered to Hong Kong by land on Thursday. Two trains were previously shipped to Hong Kong from Qingdao,in Shandong province, where they were manufactured, as the railway tracks were not ready at that time.

TR projects director Dr Philco Wong Nai-keung told Lam that “with orange, red and white waves painted on both sides of the carriages, the train would look like a ‘flying dragon’ when travelling at high-speed,” in a reference to the official symbol used to promote Hong Kong.


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## hkskyline

*Lease deal likely to end stand-off over joint immigration checkpoint for rail link from Hong Kong to mainland China*
Plan for mainland law enforcers to help man joint checkpoint set to be announced next week
July 21, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Hong Kong is expected to lease space inside the future high-speed rail terminus at West Kowloon to mainland Chinese authorities to implement a plan for a joint immigration checkpoint, under a deal to be announced as early as next week.

The proposal will likely see mainland laws enforced on Hong Kong soil within the leased area, where mainland border control facilities will be installed, according to two lawmakers familiar with the arrangement.

Mainland officers would man the facilities and Hong Kong law enforcers would only venture into the area in the case of an emergency such as an accident or fire.

Legislator Michael Tien Puk-sun, a local deputy to the National People’s Congress, the nation’s top legislative body, said he was aware of the arrangement and did not expect significant resistance from the public to the plan.

“It is the easiest way to implement co-location [of immigration checkpoints],” Tien said. “But it will be important for the NPC Standing Committee to make a decision to declare that such an arrangement does not breach Hong Kong law. This should expel public fears or any possible legal trouble in the future.”

Fellow pro-government lawmaker Priscilla Leung Mei-fun said she had also learned of the arrangement and hailed it as “the best deal” for travellers.

The Executive Council, an advisory body to Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor, is scheduled to be briefed on the details on Monday, and the arrangement will be announced as early as the following day after the formal approval of the council is given at its regular meeting.

“I can only tell you that it will be [ready] pretty soon,” Lam said on Thursday, declining to comment on the reported arrangement. “We will probably have to start the public consultation and discussions, as well as the local legislation work, very soon.”

A bill on setting up a mainland port area inside the rail station is expected to be tabled to Hong Kong’s legislature in October, with the aim of having it passed by early next year.

The bill will provide for the application of mainland laws to the designated area, as well as specify the arrangements that will allow mainland customs and immigration facilities to be co-located with those for Hong Kong at the terminal.


----------



## hkskyline

July 25, 2017 
*Chinese officials to enforce mainland laws in Hong Kong train station*
_Excerpt_

HONG KONG (Reuters) - Hong Kong announced on Tuesday a controversial plan to allow mainland officials to enforce Chinese laws inside a Hong Kong train station, an immigration set-up critics say will encroach on the city's autonomy and endanger existing freedoms.

Hong Kong's Basic Law mini-constitution states that with a few exceptions Chinese national laws are not applicable in the city and no Chinese departments can interfere in its affairs.

But the local government said Mainland Port Areas inside the train station, set to open in autumn next year, will be legally regarded as being outside the territorial boundary of Hong Kong, so that articles of the Basic Law do not apply.

A former British colony, Hong Kong returned to Chinese rule in 1997 and enjoys wide-ranging freedoms not granted in mainland China and an independent judiciary under a so-called "one country, two systems" formula.

But the abduction by mainland agents of Hong Kong booksellers in 2015 who had published critical books on China, and Beijing's efforts to disqualify democratically elected opposition lawmakers in the local legislature, have rattled confidence in that arrangement.

About a quarter of the planned train station for high-speed trains linking Hong Kong to the mainland will fall under mainland Chinese jurisdiction, the government said.

These areas include two immigration halls at the West Kowloon station where Chinese officials will clear passengers' departure to and arrival from China, platform areas and even inside the train before it leaves Hong Kong.

"Startling"

Hong Kong's legal chief, Rimsky Yuen, denied the government was effectively ceding land, saying the local government had proposed the idea to maximize the railway's potential.

"The implementation of co-location arrangement is neither a directive nor an order by the Central People's Government," Yuen said, adding that it would need the consent of both governments.

The case would not set a precedent, he added, but stopped short of ruling out similar future arrangements.

The move is a "stark" and "startling" change to the "one country, two systems" model, said Simon Young, a law professor at the University of Hong Kong.

"It’s a remarkable exception ... just carving out space in the heart of Hong Kong and placing it under mainland jurisdiction, even the train carriages," he said.


----------



## tjrgx

*Unveiled: how the West Kowloon high-speed rail terminus in Hong Kong will work*

http://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/po...wloon-high-speed-rail-terminus-hong-kong-will










To catch a train at the West Kowloon terminus under the arrangement for joint immigration and customs facilities, travellers will have to pass through three gates and two port areas straddling four levels to get to the platform. Here’s what the trip will look like.

From the ground-floor concourse, passengers go down one floor to the ticket hall on level B1. After tickets are bought, they will then be ushered through the entry gates and down two levels to the B3 departure area, where Hong Kong and mainland China’s clearance areas are located.

Departure clearance on the Hong Kong side comes first. Passengers will then immediately move to the mainland port area, where channels and counters for arrival clearance are located.

Once both clearance procedures are completed, they will head to a waiting area on the same floor and finally board their train at the B4 platform level.

All procedures from the mainland clearance area onwards will take place in the mainland port area, which means passengers must abide by mainland laws within that zone. This includes most of the train platform level.

Arriving at the station entails a similar process but in the opposite direction. But passengers leave the station on level B2.


----------



## YannSZ

^^ Finally the agreed on the one stop boundary control!


----------



## SSCreader

This means that the mainland police can reembark anyone, for all the usual reasons (like asking for free elections in the mainland), and this on HK soil. This is completely different from what we get in Eurostar for example, as the only thing foreign police can do is deny boarding.


----------



## kunming tiger

SSCreader said:


> This means that the mainland police can reembark anyone, for all the usual reasons (like asking for free elections in the mainland), and this on HK soil. This is completely different from what we get in Eurostar for example, as the only thing foreign police can do is deny boarding.


 By reembark you mean force arriving passengers back onto the train to the Mainland? Deny them entry into HK?


----------



## SSCreader

kunming tiger said:


> By reembark you mean force arriving passengers back onto the train to the Mainland? Deny them entry into HK?


The schema says "Mainland departure clearance". So HK does not deny entry, it's the mainland that prevents exit. The other nice thing is "passengers must abide by mainland laws within that zone", which means the death penalty applies in this zone.


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## hkskyline

There were questions on whether Facebook would also be blocked in that zone.


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## mrsmartman

Source: http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/carylam/media/bWVkaWFJZDoxNzI0Mzg1Mw==/?ref=


----------



## skyridgeline

SSCreader said:


> This means that the mainland police can reembark anyone, for all the usual reasons (like asking for free elections in the mainland), and this on HK soil. This is completely different from what we get in Eurostar for example, as the only thing foreign police can do is deny boarding.


"National" security ... in the EU, it's NATO :lol:.




SSCreader said:


> The schema says "Mainland departure clearance". So HK does not deny entry, it's the mainland that prevents exit. The other nice thing is "passengers must abide by mainland laws within that zone", which* means the death penalty applies in this zone*.


A plus for most Hong Kongers. 



hkskyline said:


> There were questions on whether Facebook would also be blocked in that zone.


Beijing banned Justin Beiber too .


----------



## foxmulder

hkskyline said:


> The price to pay is not losing our prized legal system and freedom. Are you aware of the legal enforcement arrangements at the Hong Kong terminus?


Prized by whom? Well aware.


----------



## hkskyline

foxmulder said:


> Prized by whom? Well aware.


To mainlanders, they can't tell the difference. They won't know anyway. We on the other side of the firewall know better.


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## hkskyline

*Let Hongkongers challenge joint checkpoint plan now before it’s too late, veteran lawyer argues*
Democratic Party founding chairman claims proposal for high-speed rail link would ‘uplift and disapply’ local laws and city’s mini-constitution
September 22, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Hong Kong residents challenging a controversial joint checkpoint arrangement that would apply mainland laws in the city should be allowed to step in now before it is too late, a veteran barrister has argued.

Representing clients on Friday at the High Court, Democratic Party founding chairman Martin Lee Chu-ming SC said the proposed arrangement would “uplift and disapply” local laws, the Basic Law, and the Sino-British Joint Declaration signed before the city’s handover to Beijing.

The checkpoint co-location proposal would see mainland criminal laws applied in part of the West Kowloon terminus, where the high-speed rail link between Hong Kong and Guangzhou is to be housed. The arrangement would undermine the city’s autonomy, depriving Hongkongers of the protection of local laws, Lee added.

“It’s surprising anyone in the government could have thought of it,” he said of the proposal as he raised fears it could one day spread to other areas in Hong Kong.

The barrister is representing former civil servant Kwok Cheuk-kin in one legal challenge, and social worker Hendick Lui Chi-hang and retiree William Li Ka-lim in another. The three were asking the court to allow them to lodge judicial reviews against the joint immigration arrangement.

To succeed, they must demonstrate their case is “reasonably arguable”.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...s-challenge-joint-checkpoint-plan-now-its-too


----------



## hkskyline

*High Court rejects legal bid against Hong Kong-mainland rail checkpoint plan*
Pair vow to fight on after judge says their bid was ‘premature’
September 27, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

A Hong Kong court on Wednesday threw out two applications for permission to lodge judicial reviews against a controversial joint checkpoint arrangement that would see mainland laws applied in Hong Kong.

Adopting a key argument advanced by the government, Mr Justice Anderson Chow Ka-ming said the two leave applications were filed prematurely and there are no exceptional circumstances – as the law requires – for the court to entertain the proposed challenges.

“I consider it to be plain that the challenge of the [Chief Executive in Council] decision is premature such that leave to apply for judicial review should not be granted,” Chow wrote in a 28-page judgment.

But the setback did not dampen the spirits of the two applicants who were accompanied by more than three dozen supporters to collect the judgment from the High Court on Wednesday.

“I’ll file again at a later stage then,” former civil servant Kwok Cheuk-kin said.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...-rejects-legal-bid-against-hong-kong-mainland


----------



## tjrgx

*Hong Kong to Mainland High-Speed Rail System Is Ahead of Schedule*

http://www.caixinglobal.com/2017-09-29/101152218.html

Progress on the Hong Kong section of its planned link to the mainland’s high-speed rail system was ahead of schedule during the second quarter of 2017, according to a document released by the Hong Kong government.

The Hong Kong section of the 140-kilometer (87-mile) Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link was 94.3% complete as of June 30, a report by the city’s Legislative Council said. The city had previously planned to complete 88.9% of the project by that date.

The rail link, which will cut trips between Hong Kong and the Chinese mainland to under 15 minutes, is expected to begin running in the third quarter of 2018.
Most major construction work on the rail link has progressed faster than expected, the report said, with the exception of work on the West Kowloon Terminus, the planned city-center station. Parts of the station, including its external wall and entrance building, still require “continual and close monitoring,” the report said.

All nine high-speed trains ordered by the special administrative region’s MTR Corp. Ltd. and built by CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co. Ltd. have arrived in Hong Kong from the northern Chinese seaside city of Qingdao, the report added. This means Hong Kong is now connected with the 20,000-kilometer national high-speed rail network, it said.


----------



## hkskyline

tjrgx said:


> http://www.caixinglobal.com/2017-09-29/101152218.html
> 
> Progress on the Hong Kong section of its planned link to the mainland’s high-speed rail system was ahead of schedule during the second quarter of 2017, according to a document released by the Hong Kong government.
> 
> The Hong Kong section of the 140-kilometer (87-mile) Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link was 94.3% complete as of June 30, a report by the city’s Legislative Council said. The city had previously planned to complete 88.9% of the project by that date.
> 
> The rail link, which will cut trips between Hong Kong and the Chinese mainland to under 15 minutes, is expected to begin running in the third quarter of 2018.
> Most major construction work on the rail link has progressed faster than expected, the report said, with the exception of work on the West Kowloon Terminus, the planned city-center station. Parts of the station, including its external wall and entrance building, still require “continual and close monitoring,” the report said.
> 
> All nine high-speed trains ordered by the special administrative region’s MTR Corp. Ltd. and built by CRRC Qingdao Sifang Co. Ltd. have arrived in Hong Kong from the northern Chinese seaside city of Qingdao, the report added. This means Hong Kong is now connected with the 20,000-kilometer national high-speed rail network, it said.


But they delayed the opening due to construction issues and budget overruns. So they are ahead of schedule from the delay, but still overall delayed?


----------



## tokyo-hypa

Cross Border trains unveiled to public, officials say project on track to connect Canton with the West Kowloon terminus by Q3 2018

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...igh-speed-cross-border-trains-unveiled-public


----------



## hkskyline

October 4, 2017 
*Govt plans to move motion over co-location*
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_

HONG KONG - The government will table a motion to the Legislative Council in late October seeking support for the joint checkpoint plan for the high-speed rail in Hong Kong, Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor said on Tuesday. 

The move comes after opinion polls show that the plan has majority support in the city.

Lam said LegCo should draw conclusions based on public opinion. Then, the government could launch its three-step process to implement the co-location arrangement at the West Kowloon Station after debating it, she added.

The motion is a non-binding one.

Lam made the remarks when meeting the press just before the weekly Executive Council meeting. The CE said she was confident that the motion would be supported by most lawmakers during a LegCo meeting on Oct 25.

Lam also revealed the timetable for carrying out the government’s three-step process after LegCo debates it. 

She said the special administrative region government would spend around a month working out details of the co-location arrangement with mainland authorities. It would then submit it to the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress for approval in December. 

Lam added that local legislation for the arrangement, as the final step of the government’s three-step process in co-location implementation, would start at the beginning of 2018. It would be brought before LegCo in February.


----------



## TWK90

Considering the rail link is also being operated by MTR, I wonder will they offer seamless ticketing to the MTR metro train service?


----------



## hkskyline

TWK90 said:


> Considering the rail link is also being operated by MTR, I wonder will they offer seamless ticketing to the MTR metro train service?


No. Tickets will likely line with the CRH so passengers don't need to get a new ticket beyond Guangzhou.


----------



## hkskyline

*Carrie Lam pushes for October 25 start to Legco debate on high-speed rail link border checkpoint*
Chief Executive says ‘time will be very tight’ if debate is delayed, as government aims to get Beijing’s endorsement for the plan by end of this year
October 17, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor said on Tuesday that the government would push for lawmakers to debate, in just over a week, her border checkpoint plan giving mainland officials almost full jurisdiction over a section of a Hong Kong train terminal.

She aimed for October 25 as a start date.

To do this, the government would, at Wednesday’s Legislative Council meeting, seek the adjournment of a “potentially lengthy” debate on stamp duties to November.

The Hong Kong government in July proposed leasing to the mainland a quarter of the West Kowloon terminus of its under-construction HK$84.4 billion high-speed rail link to Guangzhou. National laws would apply in the leased area.

Hong Kong would put local immigration, quarantine and customs facilities in the area as well. Giving an example of why this was necessary, the government said that without mainland law enforced in the area, there could be an influx of criminals and asylum seekers from the mainland to the city.

Pro-democracy lawmakers argued that this goes against the Basic Law, Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, which says that under the “one country, two systems” principle, mainland law does not apply in the city. Government officials retorted that the area would be leased to the mainland, though it acknowledged that it would first need to get authorisation from China’s legislative body, the National People’s Congress Standing Committee.


----------



## hkskyline

PA080133 by Eric Li, on Flickr

PA080136 by Eric Li, on Flickr

PA080138 by Eric Li, on Flickr

PA080142 by Eric Li, on Flickr

PA080123 by Eric Li, on Flickr


----------



## hkskyline

*KCRC in 50-year deal for link land*
The Standard _Excerpt_
27 Sep 2017 

The Kowloon-Canton Railway Corporation will pay a nominal premium of HK$1,000 on a 50-year land lease to be used for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen- Hong Kong Express Rail Link.

According to the Chief Executive in Council, the KCRC will also pay the government an annual rent equivalent to 3 percent of the rateable value of the land.

The Transport and Housing Bureau said it did not expect to recover the construction costs of the express rail through the agreement.

The KCRC is wholly owned by the government. Since the merger with MTRCL in 2007, the KCRC has become an asset holder of the East Rail system. The MTRCL is allowed to operate its line under a service concession agreement.

A similar arrangement will apply to the express rail, according to a document sent to lawmakers yesterday. The government will assign the land occupied by the express rail to the KCRC, which will allow the MTRCL to operate the rail under a service agreement.

The MTRCL should be formally appointed as the express rail operator by December. It will pay the recurrent operation costs. The bureau explained that the land concerned includes an about 26-kilometer underground rail line, an emergency rescue station and maintenance facilities in Shek Kong, eight ventilation buildings and one emergency access point along the line, and the West Kowloon station.

"While the government will not recuperate the capital costs of the express rail - HK$84.62 billion - under the proposed land and asset holding arrangements, the government will receive dividends from the KCRC from the operation of the express rail if there are profits arising from the latter," the bureau stated.

By the end of the agreement period, the government will get back the ownership of a fully operational express rail system.

The government has decided to build the rail on its own and allow the MTRCL to operate it, as there would be a substantial funding gap if the rail firm was asked to build and own it, it stated.


----------



## hkskyline

*Hong Kong MTR vows quality checks on high-speed rail link amid Kobe Steel scandal*
Railway operator emphasises all trains must pass safety and performance tests before entering service
Oct. 19, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

The MTR Corporation has promised to closely follow up with the train carriage manufacturer for its high-speed railway project linking Hong Kong and Guangzhou after reports that subpar materials may have been used during production.

The firm emphasised all trains must pass safety and performance tests before entering service.

But it did not specify whether extra steps were needed or the commissioning of the HK$84 billion project, slated for September next year, would be delayed.

News agency FactWire reported on Wednesday that Qingdao Sifang, the manufacturer of the rolling stock, had procured raw materials from Kobe Steel in 2013.

Kobe Steel was found earlier this month to have falsified inspection data to cheat compliance tests, with the misrepresentations possibly dating back as far as 10 years.

The Japanese steelmaker told FactWire on Tuesday that it could only verify by the end of October whether the aluminium used on Hong Kong’s trains were safe.

Concerns escalated when it was revealed Qingdao Sifang imported the materials through intermediary Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which has a business relationship with Kobe Steel.


----------



## hkskyline

Kowloon Peninsula by bennychun, on Flickr


----------



## Zaz965

by zOrg


z0rg said:


> Más imágenes de la estación de alta velocidad de HK.


----------



## hkskyline

*Carrie Lam reverses threat to push forward mainland checkpoint plan without Legco approval*
Hong Kong’s leader is ‘sad, disappointed and frustrated’ after motion to push the controversial plan forward in Legco has failed
November 3, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Hong Kong’s leader on Friday walked back her threat to push forward with a controversial joint checkpoint for the cross-border railway to Guangzhou without the legislature’s support while expressing her dismay that the plan was once again stalled.

Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor condemned the opposition lawmakers for using “as many tactics as they could” to filibuster a non-binding motion at the Legislative Council two days in a row, including on Thursday when chaos broke out in the chamber and forced an early end to the proceedings. The motion will not be discussed again until November 15.

“I feel very sad, very disappointed and very frustrated,” Lam said on the sidelines of a development forum on Friday.

Despite the setback, Lam softened her tone from last week’s hardline stance when she warned that the government could kick-start a “three-step process” to adopt the so-called co-location plan and not “sit back and watch” as lawmakers filibustered.

“I do feel that we could wait for the motion to be passed on November 15,” she said.

She said she was “very confident and very hopeful” that when Legco continues discussion on the plan, the motion would be put to vote and hopefully passed on the same day.

Legco meets twice a week and the past four meetings have been spent debating the plan, which would give mainland authorities almost full immigration and customs jurisdiction over part of the West Kowloon terminal.

The government has said the arrangement is a practical necessity, but the pan-democrats claim it violates the “one country, two systems” principle that allows the city a high degree of autonomy.

Opposition lawmakers, who hold only 24 of Legco’s 70 seats, have adopted all sorts of tactics to delay the motion. Of the 36 hours spent debating the motion, 24 hours were spent on procedure and quorum bells.


----------



## hkskyline

*More to express rail benefits than money*
The Standard _Excerpt_
31 Oct 2017 

People should take into account all the services and facilities when considering the benefits the Guangzhou-Shenzhen- Hong Kong Express Rail Link will bring, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan said yesterday.

Chan was responding to doubts raised by lawmakers when addressing the Legislative Council's economic development panel. He said the overall return could reach HK$27 billion in 50 years - including the time saved for passengers, jobs created and the profits generated by properties built on top of the West Kowloon station.

HK First legislator Claudia Mo Man-ching had asked how the rail could make a profit and whether it could even break even with its staggering cost of HK$86.4 billion.

She said the government itself had adjusted the rail's internal rate of return - a measure used to evaluate the attractiveness of a project - from 6 percent to 4 percent this year. Mo said that even MTRCL chairman Frederick Ma Si- hang had earlier estimated that it could cost HK$80 million a month to operate the express rail.

"There can be a broader definition for returns," Chan answered.

During the first 50 years of operation, economic benefits brought by the time saved in traveling can amount to HK$90 billion, he said. The 10,000 jobs the rail helps to create would amount to another HK$90 billion while the three commercial buildings on top of the station would add another HK$90 billion.


----------



## hkskyline

*LCQ16: Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link forecast data*
Government Press Release _Excerpt_

Following is a question by the Hon Tanya Chan and a written reply by the Secretary for Transport and Housing, Mr Frank Chan Fan, in the Legislative Council today (November 8):

Question:

The Government will start the "Three-step Process" shortly to implement the arrangement of Hong Kong and Mainland customs, immigration and quarantine procedures being carried out at the West Kowloon Station (WKS) of the Hong Kong Section (HKS) of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) (the co-location arrangement). However, the Government has not yet given this Council an account of the operating arrangements for XRL such as train schedules, as well as the details of the Mainland Port Area in WKS. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

(1) of a projection of the (i) number of trains with intermediate stops or terminal stops at the stations listed in Table 1, (ii) number of trains terminating at such stations, and (iii) number of direct trains running to and from such stations with no immediate stops (set out in Table 1 by name of station), among the daily number of XRL trains running to and from WKS during the initial operation of HKS of XRL;

More : http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201711/08/P2017110800362.htm


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## hkskyline

Nov 16, 2017
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_
*Rimsky Yuen welcomes passage of motion on co-location plan *

Secretary for Justice Rimsky Yuen Kwok-keung welcomed the passage by the Legislative Council of a non-binding motion on the co-location arrangement for the express rail link.

Yuen said on Wednesday that putting the co-location plan up for discussion in Legco was a form of public consultation, calling it effective and a way to show respect to citizens, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports.

Yuen’s remarks came after Legco passed a non-binding motion on the plan by a vote of 38-22. No one abstained.

The motion was aimed at highlighting the benefits of the plan through debates before a “three-step process” to materialize the arrangement for the express link, which is expected to begin operations in the third quarter next year.

Democrats tried to stall deliberations with some surprise moves, causing voting to be delayed until Wednesday when amendments proposed by eight democrats for filibustering purposes were vetoed.

According to Legco President Andrew Leung Kwan-yuen, lawmakers had spent about 26 hours deliberating the motion.

Yuen said the result allows the government to continue its work on the co-location plan, adding the “three-step process” — reaching a co-operation arrangement between Hong Kong and Beijing, which has been completed, gaining approval and endorsement from the Standing Committee of the National People’s Congress and legislating the proposal in Hong Kong — will go as planned.


----------



## hkskyline

*Landmark Hong Kong-mainland rail checkpoint deal on track to be finalised*
City’s Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor and Guangdong Governor Ma Xingrui will sign controversial co-location agreement on Saturday
November 17, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Hong Kong and the mainland will seal a politically contentious deal on Saturday to set up a joint checkpoint for the high-speed rail link to Guangzhou, dismissing critics’ warnings that it undermines the city’s autonomy.

Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor and Guangdong Governor Ma Xingrui will sign the so-called “co-location” arrangement at Government House at noon, marking the first of three steps that will allow mainland officials to exercise immigration and customs jurisdiction over part of the West Kowloon terminus to be leased to them.

The next step would be to secure the endorsement of China’s top legislative body, the National People’s Congress Standing Committee (NPCSC), expected by December.

Enacting the relevant legislation would be the final step, so as to “ensure timely implementation of the co-location arrangement”, “fully unleashing the transport, social and economic benefits” of the cross-border railway, and “maximising convenience to passengers”, according to a government statement issued on Friday.

A government source said the full agreement would not be released before the mainland’s top legislative body endorses it, but “descriptions” of the deal would be provided on Saturday.

The HK$84.4 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link is scheduled to start running in the third quarter of next year.

Lam’s administration is going full steam ahead after the co-location proposal was passed as a non-binding motion by the Legislative Council on Wednesday, with filibustering opposition lawmakers running out of delaying tactics.

While the government is citing Legco’s approval as public support for the arrangement, the pan-democrats are calling it “fake” public consultation. They warn that it will violate the “one country, two systems” principle and set a bad precedent by allowing officers from across the border to exercise almost full jurisdiction on Hong Kong soil.


----------



## hkskyline

*Co-location deal is as transparent as possible, says Chan*
The Standard _Excerpt_
20 Nov 2017 

The government has been as "open" and "transparent" as possible in the co- location agreement, despite not publishing all the details of the deal signed, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan said.

To formally start the "three-step process" in implementing co-location at the West Kowloon rail terminus, a cooperation arrangement was signed on Saturday by Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor and Guangdong governor Ma Xingrui at Government House.

But the government only published eight paragraphs of "key contents" from the arrangement that states a Mainland Port Area will be set up at West Kowloon, and that mainland authorities will enforce national laws within the area.

Discussing why the government has refused to disclose more details, Lam attributed it to respect for the mainland's legal process.

"This is purely because we need to respect the mainland's legal process, as we need to submit [the arrangement] to the State Council, and the State Council has to submit it to the National People's Congress Standing Committee for discussion," Lam said. "But I can tell you, when the NPCSC has made a decision, we will publish the arrangement in full."

She said a decision from the NPCSC could come next month, and local legislation on co-location may start in February.

This drew criticism from the pan- democrats' co-location concern group, which branded the act as a betrayal to Hongkongers.

Speaking at a charity event yesterday, Chan said the government was being as transparent as possible.

"When we reached an initial agreement with the mainland, we immediately went to the Legislative Council to report our proposed framework, and repeatedly we explained to citizens and groups on many occasions. That's why the so-called deception or avoidance is non-existent," he said.

On his way back from Shanghai yesterday, Secretary for Justice Rimsky Yuen Kwok-keung refused to answer questions related to the co-location issue.

Civic Party lawmaker Tanya Chan, who leads the pan-democrats' co- location concern group, said all that Hong Kong people can know for now is that an arrangement has been signed.

But important details, such as whether mainland authorities working at the terminus will be armed, or if an arsenal will be set up inside the Mainland Port Area, was never disclosed, Tanya Chan said. "Once the area within the West Kowloon terminus is leased to the mainland, we have little control over what happens there," she said.


----------



## hkskyline

*Express rail details on way*
Nov 28, 2017
The Standard _Excerpt_

There will be 114 pairs, or 228 trains, going to and from the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link every day during peak periods, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan said.

The travel time of eight hours and 45 minutes from Hong Kong to Beijing still stands, Chan said.

The announcements came after Chan met representatives of the China Railway Corporation in Beijing yesterday to discuss service details, number of runs, destinations and the financial arrangement. However, there was no mention of the controversial co-location arrangement.

While the co-location arrangement is the most pressing issue about the rail system, Chan said only operational matters were discussed.


----------



## hkskyline

*Hong Kong is authorised to surrender jurisdiction of land to mainland China for high-speed rail link, Elsie Leung says*
Hong Kong’s former justice chief points to Article 7 in city’s mini-constitution which says government enshrined with right to manage, use and develop land and natural resources
November 25, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

A controversial plan by the Hong Kong government to give up jurisdiction over part of a rail terminus and a 26km strip of land for a high-speed cross-border railway is legally justified, former justice chief in the city, Elsie Leung Oi-sie, said on Saturday.

Leung also said since Hong Kong has been granted the right to manage its land, it was therefore authorised to surrender jurisdiction within its border.

Her latest comments followed criticism by Hong Kong’s leader, Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor, who said opposition to the plan was based on fear, pessimism and complacency.

One week after Lam penned a deal with Guangdong governor Ma Xingrui to set up a so-called mainland port area at the West Kowloon terminus of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail link, questions remained over the scheme’s legal and constitutional justification.

A heated debate is continuing on which provisions of the Basic Law should be cited to support the unprecedented move.

Secretary for Justice Rimsky Yuen Kwok-keung, the legal point man behind the scheme, suggested applying the Basic Law’s Article 20 – which says the National People’s Congress Standing Committee could grant powers not yet enshrined to Hong Kong.

But Yuen’s predecessor dismissed the idea. Speaking on a radio programme on Saturday, Leung pointed to Article 7 of the Basic Law instead.

The article states that Hong Kong’s land and natural resources belong to the state, but the city’s government is enshrined with the right to manage, use and develop them.


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## hkskyline

*Paying for express rail tickets in renminbi at West Kowloon would only deepen mainlandisation fears*
Michael Chugani is aghast that the Hong Kong transport secretary is open to using renminbi as the currency for high-speed railway tickets, as this would only play into the hands of those fanning fears over the joint immigration checkpoint
November 29, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Are you serious, Mr Secretary? Do you really want to pursue the folly of using China’s renminbi as the currency to buy express rail tickets in Hong Kong? Unthinkable as it may be for many Hongkongers, that’s exactly what Transport and Housing Secretary Frank Chan Fan said two weeks ago.

These were his exact words at a press conference about the railway’s logistics: “How about the kind of currency that we are [to be] using? Should it be the Hong Kong dollar or should it be renminbi?”

I can think of only two reasons for Chan’s astounding remark: he wasn’t thinking straight, or he is unfamiliar with the word “mainlandisation”.

Either way, it again proves that our officials have an inborn knack to shoot themselves in the foot.

Mainlandisation is anathema to many Hong Kong people. But it’s an inevitability that’s already eating away at the feel and culture of our city. Mainland developers have humbled local property tycoons in snapping up land. Mandarin has become a fixture in our finance sector. Even Hong Kong icon Cathay Pacific has lost its blue-chip status to a mainland firm on the Hang Seng Index.

Do we want to hasten the process by requiring Hongkongers to pay in renminbi for express rail tickets at West Kowloon?

The HK$84 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail was built with Hong Kong dollars and paid for by local taxpayers. Its terminus is in West Kowloon, which will remain part of Hong Kong even after a section is placed under mainland jurisdiction.

Call me a localist if you will, but I am ruffled by the thought of having to pay in renminbi for a ticket on a railway built and paid for by Hong Kong.

More : http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight...rail-tickets-renminbi-west-kowloon-would-only


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## dbhaskar

*Final train delivered for Hong Kong Express Rail Link*

Source: International Railway Journal | December 05, 2017

CRRC Qingdao Sifang has completed the delivery of the nine high-speed trains it is supplying to MTR in Hong Kong for operation on the new Guangzhou - Shenzhen - Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL).

The 28km $HK 84.4bn ($US 10.8bn) section in Hong Kong is due to open in the third quarter of 2018. The trains, which are a derivative of the CRH380A sets operated by China Railway Corporation (CRC) will operate at 200km/h in Hong Kong and a 48-minute journey time is envisaged between Kowloon West and Guangzhou South.

Trains will operate at 15-minute intervals between Kowloon West and Shenzhen North and every 30-minute intervals between there and Guangzhou South. There will also be 33 trains per day from Hong Kong to cities in mainland China.


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## dbhaskar

hkskyline said:


> *Paying for express rail tickets in renminbi at West Kowloon would only deepen mainlandisation fears*
> Michael Chugani is aghast that the Hong Kong transport secretary is open to using renminbi as the currency for high-speed railway tickets, as this would only play into the hands of those fanning fears over the joint immigration checkpoint


Case in point article demonstrating sub-standard journalism in the SCMP. Instead of making rational arguments to support his critique, Mr. Chugani chooses to indulge in fear mongering. A convincing case (supported by data and facts) can be made in favor of using HK Dollars, but this article is astounding in its naivety.


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## FM 2258

dbhaskar said:


> Source: International Railway Journal | December 05, 2017
> 
> CRRC Qingdao Sifang has completed the delivery of the nine high-speed trains it is supplying to MTR in Hong Kong for operation on the new Guangzhou - Shenzhen - Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL).
> 
> The 28km $HK 84.4bn ($US 10.8bn) section in Hong Kong is due to open in the third quarter of 2018. The trains, which are a derivative of the CRH380A sets operated by China Railway Corporation (CRC) will operate at 200km/h in Hong Kong and a 48-minute journey time is envisaged between Kowloon West and Guangzhou South.
> 
> Trains will operate at 15-minute intervals between Kowloon West and Shenzhen North and every 30-minute intervals between there and Guangzhou South. There will also be 33 trains per day from Hong Kong to cities in mainland China.


Why is the Hong Kong section limited to 200km/h? Is it because of the short distance to Shenzhen Futian station or the fact that it's mostly tunnel? 

I'm sure it's been answered in this thread yet cannot find the answer.


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## mrmoopt

FM 2258 said:


> Why is the Hong Kong section limited to 200km/h? Is it because of the short distance to Shenzhen Futian station or the fact that it's mostly tunnel?
> 
> I'm sure it's been answered in this thread yet cannot find the answer.


Vmax200 due to tunnel size diameter and piston effect. Most trains run in tunnels at 160km/h, so it's considerably quick.


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## Silly_Walks

cal_t said:


> Vmax200 due to tunnel size diameter and piston effect. Most trains run in tunnels at 160km/h, so it's considerably quick.


Exactly this! 

Although the Gotthard Base Tunnel has a vmax of up to 250 km/h, so it can always be faster :cheers:


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## FM 2258

cal_t said:


> Vmax200 due to tunnel size diameter and piston effect. Most trains run in tunnels at 160km/h, so it's considerably quick.


I thought that may be the reason yet don't mainland high speed trains pass through tunnels at 300-350km/h? From what I remember those trains don't slow down for tunnels. Either way 200km/h straight from Kowloon to Futian is pretty impressive in my opinion.


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## flankerjun

FM 2258 said:


> I thought that may be the reason yet don't mainland high speed trains pass through tunnels at 300-350km/h? From what I remember those trains don't slow down for tunnels. Either way 200km/h straight from Kowloon to Futian is pretty impressive in my opinion.


the Hong kong section is only 26 km,that is not enough for CRH train to accelerate 
to 350km/h,so there is no difference runing at 350 or 200.and 350KM/H line needs a huge Cross Section，and the world‘s biggest TBM can not boring this tunnel.


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## hkskyline

IMG_20171129_105405 by Neal Jennings, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Joint checkpoint plan for cross-border high-speed rail ‘entirely in line with Hong Kong Basic Law’, Beijing official says*
Authorities gather to scrutinise the legal basis for proposal allowing enforcement of national laws on Hong Kong soil
December 23, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

A key Beijing official on Saturday defended a controversial joint checkpoint plan for the cross-border high-speed rail between Hong Kong and mainland China, saying it was entirely constitutional even as critics challenged the legal basis of the arrangement.

The remarks by Li Fei, chairman of the Basic Law Committee, came a day after the National People’s Congress Standing Committee, the country’s top legislative body, convened its bi-monthly meeting to scrutinise the so-called co-location proposal.

The plan would allow mainland officers to enforce national laws during immigration and clearance operations in part of the West Kowloon terminus of the rail link to Guangzhou.

On Friday, the first day of the meeting in Beijing, it still remained unclear which articles in the Basic Law, Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, could be cited to support the legality of the groundbreaking arrangement.

Li was tight-lipped when asked about the matter, saying: “[The meeting] is not over yet – it will be announced when the meeting ends.”

Li said he would comprehensively answer all questions raised in a news conference – expected to be held next Wednesday – as he stressed the joint checkpoint plan was entirely in line with the Basic Law.

Basic Law Committee member Maria Tam Wai-chu, also at the meeting, backed the plan by citing Article 7 – which states that the land and natural resources within Hong Kong shall be state property – alongside Articles 118 and 119.

The two latter clauses state that the Hong Kong government shall provide an economic and legal environment for encouraging investments, technological progress as well as the development of new industries, and formulate appropriate policies to promote and coordinate the development of various trades.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...nt-plan-cross-border-high-speed-rail-entirely


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## hkskyline

*Top Basic Law official to address legality of joint checkpoint plan in Beijing on Wednesday*
Li Fei promises to answer all questions regarding the checkpoint planned for the West Kowloon terminus of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong rail link
December 25, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

A top Beijing expert on Hong Kong’s mini-constitution is set to field questions on Wednesday afternoon at the capital’s Great Hall of the People on the legal justification for a controversial plan to give mainland Chinese authorities jurisdiction over part of the terminus of a high-speed rail that will link the city to Guangzhou.

Basic Law Committee chairman Li Fei plans to hold a press conference on the same day China’s top legislative body is expected to approve the so-called co-location plan, which would allow mainland officers to enforce national laws during immigration and customs operations in a designated zone leased to them at the West Kowloon terminus of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong rail link.

Questions remain over the scheme’s legal and constitutional justification, even as Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor penned a deal last month with Guangdong governor Ma Xingrui to set up a mainland port area at the terminus. Some Hongkongers, including opposition legislators, have said the plan would erode freedoms under the Basic Law, the city’s mini-constitution.

The plan was one of four bills being scrutinised by the National People’s Congress Standing Committee (NPCSC) at its bi-monthly meeting that started on Friday in Beijing.

In a document tabled before the NPCSC by Zhang Xiaoming, Beijing’s top man on Hong Kong and Macau affairs, several parts of the Basic Law – including articles 118 and 119, which deal with economic considerations – were cited to prove that the Hong Kong government has sufficient power to implement the co-location arrangement, according to sources quoted by government radio station RTHK.

Articles 18 and 20 were not mentioned in the document, which was the transcript of Zhang’s briefing on the arrangement, made on the first day of meetings, the RTHK report said.

The contents of Zhang’s speech have not been disclosed in full to the public.

Hong Kong Secretary for Justice Rimsky Yuen Kwok-keung had previously cited Article 20, which authorises the NPCSC to grant the Hong Kong government powers not yet enshrined in its mini-constitution. But Yuen’s suggestion was disputed by pan-democrats and a Beijing academic.

Critics have often pointed to Article 18, which states that national laws shall not be applied to Hong Kong except for those listed in Annex III of the Basic Law. But hours after Zhang’s briefing, Elsie Leung Oi-sie, vice-chairwoman of the Basic Law Committee, told reporters that the interpretation of Article 18 was “irrelevant” as national laws would only apply to a specific group of people in a specific place – in this case, users of the high-speed rail in the West Kowloon terminus.

Article 118 allows for Hong Kong to provide an economic and legal environment for encouraging investments, technological progress and the development of new industries. Article 119 says Hong Kong shall formulate policies to promote various trades such as transport and tourism.


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## hkskyline

PANO_20171128_111222 by Neal Jennings, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

DSC_6290 by Martin Ng, on Flickr

DSC_6287 by Martin Ng, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Beijing gives nod to rail terminus plan*
27 Dec 2017
The Standard _Excerpt_

Beijing officials said today that their decision to allow mainland officials to run part of the West Kowloon high-speed rail terminus will not breach the Basic Law, adding that in any case, they have the final say on what is constitutional and what isn't, RTHK reported.

The National People's Congress Standing Committee earlier endorsed the proposal, with 158 votes for and none against.

A resolution states that the station plan will not bring about any changes to the SAR’s "administrative area” and will not undermine the city’s high degree of autonomy or residents’ rights and freedoms. It quotes Article 7 of the Basic Law, which says Hong Kong's land is state property.

The resolution says mainland officers will carry out their duties only in designated parts of the station in relation to immigration, customs, railway security, inspection and quarantine, and therefore there will be no contravention of Article 18 of the Basic Law, which states that national laws shall not be applied in the SAR.

The plan is in line with China’s constitution, the resolution states, adding that the agreement reached between the SAR government and mainland authorities is a manifestation of the city’s high degree of autonomy.

At a media briefing, deputy secretary-general of the NPCSC, Li Fei, who also chairs the Basic Law Committee, made it clear that the NPCSC has the final say on matters regarding the Basic Law and its decision on the West Kowloon Station cannot be challenged by Hong Kong's courts.

"The National People’s Congress Standing Committee is empowered to legislate on national laws, interpret the laws and monitor the implementation of the laws. This includes the power to interpret Hong Kong’s Basic Law, and the duty to monitor the implementation of the Basic Law," Li said.


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## hkskyline

*HK emergency services must get approval to enter mainland areas*
28 Dec 2017
The Standard _Excerpt_

Hong Kong disciplinary services can only enter the mainland-controlled area in the express rail station to handle crimes and accidents upon request and approval from the mainland, the agreement between the SAR and the mainland states.

As the National People's Congress Standing Committee approved the co-location arrangement yesterday, the SAR government also publicized the confidential co-location agreement Carrie Lam signed with Guangdong governor Ma Xingrui earlier this month. In the agreement, it was stated that Hong Kong personnel can only enter the mainland port region for emergency purposes with approval from the mainland side.

Hong Kong and mainland authorities will establish a communication mechanism for handling emergencies, such as security issues, terrorism and fire. They will also arrange joint drills to prepare for possible emergencies.

The agreement also confirmed the area of the mainland port region.

It stated that the mainland port region will be located on floor levels B2, B3 and B4, as well as covering the rail carriages. They will include a mainland customs clearance region, connection corridors and rail platform.

Other areas in the express rail link, including the train storage in Shek Kong, rail tracks and tunnels, belong to Hong Kong and do not fall under the mainland port region.

The allocation of the port region to the mainland government, the time limit and fees for maintaining facilities and buildings will be determined by separate contracts between the mainland and the SAR.

The mainland port region will be under mainland jurisdiction, the agreement stated. Passengers in the port region will be considered to be on the mainland.

If passengers violate mainland laws, the mainland enforcement bodies will take relevant legal action, depending on the situation.


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## hkskyline

*Hong Kong Bar Association ‘appalled’ by approval of joint checkpoint plan, saying it ‘irreparably’ breaches Basic Law*
Organisation slams top legislative body’s decision on co-location arrangement for cross-border rail link, calling it most retrograde step since 1997
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
December 29, 2017

Hong Kong’s Bar Association was “appalled” by a decision made by China’s top legislative body on a joint checkpoint plan for a cross-border rail link, saying the move was the most retrograde step since 1997, with the city’s mini-constitution being “irreparably breached” and the rule of law “severely” undermined.

The statement released by the association on Thursday night came after the National People’s Congress Standing Committee (NPCSC) on Wednesday approved a plan for mainland officials to enforce national laws in part of the West Kowloon station, which will be the Hong Kong terminus for an express rail link connecting the city to Guangzhou.

The association said that the decision concerning the co-location arrangement was not supported by any provisions in the Basic Law, the city’s mini-constitution. The association said it was “appalled” when the NPCSC approved the plan and confirmed it was consistent with the country’s constitution and the Basic Law without stating any basis.

“This plainly amounts to an announcement by the NPCSC that the cooperation agreement complies with the constitution and the Basic Law ‘just because the NPCSC says so’,” the statement said.

“Such an unprecedented move is the most retrograde step to date in the implementation of the Basic Law and severely undermines public confidence in ‘one country, two systems’ and the rule of law in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.”


----------



## hkskyline

*Hong Kong’s legal community can challenge Beijing’s approval of joint checkpoint plan, ex-Bar Association head says*
Paul Shieh warns, however, that this may lead to another central government interpretation of the Basic Law
December 29, 2017
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Hong Kong lawyers and judges could challenge the controversial decision by China’s top legislative body to approve a joint checkpoint plan in the city for a cross-border rail link, a former Bar Association chairman said on Friday.

But Paul Shieh Wing-tai also conceded that such a legal battle could end up with the National People’s Congress Standing Committee issuing a “shocking” interpretation of the Basic Law, the city’s mini-constitution.

On Wednesday, state officials did not rely on any particular article in the Basic Law to formally approve the plan, which would allow national laws to be enforced on Hong Kong soil in part of the West Kowloon terminus for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong high-speed rail link.

The NPCSC sent shock waves through the city with its decision. The terminus is expected to open in the third quarter of next year.

Under Article 18 of the Basic Law, mainland legislation, barring some exceptions, shall not be applied to Hong Kong. But Beijing officials argued that they would be enforced only in a designated zone in the terminus and not to the whole of the city.

The officials and pro-Beijing politicians also said the decision was “unchallengeable” as the NPCSC was the “permanent body of the highest organ of state power”.

Speaking on a radio programme on Thursday, Shieh disagreed with pro-Beijing views on the matter. He said while the Basic Law set out the mechanism for the NPCSC to interpret or amend its articles, it did not mention the role of the latter’s “decisions”.

“A decision made by the NPCSC lacks constitutional status in Hong Kong,” he said.

Shieh added that while the approval of the plan could be respected by the people, “the court could disagree with it”.

“The court will not say that we are afraid just because the decision was made by the NPCSC,” he said.

However, Shieh said a judicial review could not be sought against the move by the NPCSC at this point. A legal challenge can only happen after a local decision on the issue has been made by the city’s Legislative Council or the chief executive.

Shieh also said he believed a judicial review could trigger an interpretation of the Basic Law by Beijing.

“The NPCSC has said its decision did not rely on any particular article … so [the impact] of the interpretation could be more shocking,” he said.

Speaking separately on the same programme, University of Hong Kong law professor Albert Chen Hung-yee, a member of the NPCSC’s Basic Law Committee, said the committee “had reflected the views of Hong Kong’s legal sector to the central government”.

Chen said he originally supported the plan by Hong Kong’s justice minister to seek Beijing’s endorsement on the joint checkpoint arrangement under Article 20 of the Basic Law, which states that the city “may enjoy other powers granted to it” by Beijing.

“But scholars and officials … insisted that the co-location plan did not contravene Article 18,” he said, referring to the clause that protects the city from national laws.


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## hkskyline

*Human rights lawyer ‘shocked’ by Hong Kong leader’s dismissal of legal community’s concerns on joint checkpoint plan*
Candidate for Bar Council’s chairmanship urges a focus on issues, not opponents’ character
January 2, 2018
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Prominent human rights lawyer Philip ***** says he is “shocked and disappointed” by the Hong Kong leader’s dismissal of concerns raised by the local legal community over a contentious joint checkpoint plan for the city’s cross-border rail link, saying she should address the issue instead of attacking her opponents’ character.

Speaking to the Post on Monday, ***** also said it was regrettable the Bar Association’s long-awaited statement on the proposal – which would see mainland laws being enforced in part of the rail terminal at West Kowloon – had come late. The matter partly inspired him to run this month for the chairmanship of the Bar Council, the group’s governing body. ***** held the post more than a decade ago.

The hit-back came after Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor on Sunday accused lawyers questioning the arrangement’s legality of harbouring an “elitist mentality or double standards” by regarding the city’s legal system as superior to that of the mainland’s.

***** called Lam’s response to the matter “disappointing” and said it was meant to divert attention away from the issues and instead focus on “the nature of the person who maintains an opposite view”.

He likened the top city official’s argument to the Latin legal term argumentum ad hominem, which means one has concentrated not on the issue but on the personality of the person holding an opposing view.

“Arguments, particularly legal arguments, stand on merits, not on attacking the character of your opponents or the person you perceive to be your opponent.

“It is important to say that the Bar Association, like myself, is not opposing Carrie Lam or [any] individuals. They just want ... a clear explanation on why the co-location arrangement is lawful.”

The six-person list led by ***** to run for the Bar Council earlier issued a statement challenging the legality of the joint checkpoint plan, which was officially endorsed by the National People’s Congress Standing Committee (NPCSC) last week. The six argued the arrangement violated Article 18 of the Basic Law, which stipulates no mainland laws should be enforced in Hong Kong unless they are listed in Annexe III of the mini-constitution.

The stance by *****’ team was echoed days later by the association, which said it was “appalled” by the NPCSC decision. The professional body’s latest comment contrasted sharply with its three-paragraph statement released in October.


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## hkskyline

*Martin Lee says no part of Hong Kong can be exempted from Basic Law*
2 Jan 2018
The Standard _Excerpt_

A former member of the Basic Law drafting committee said today Article 18 applies to the entire city and the decision to set up a joint immigration checkpoint at West Kowloon has "clearly breached" this, RTHK reported.

In an interview with the public broadcaster, Martin Lee Chu-ming, the veteran democrat, said the article – which states that national laws shall not be applied here – is effective to the entire Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and no part can be exempted from this.

Lee said during the drafting of the laws, Lu Ping, the then director of the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, had suggested that some national laws should apply in the SAR.

"I jumped. I said 'It can't be. It cannot be because we have already agreed so far in the articles of Basic Law and in the Joint Declaration under China's basic policy of Hong Kong that Hong Kong's system of law will continue and the mainland laws shall not apply to Hong Kong at all'," Lee said.

Lee said then he asked Lu to list out national laws, like those linked to national flag, and they were listed in Annex III.

"Any law applicable to mainland China which is not contained in Schedule III, has no effect in Hong Kong. That was the agreement spelt out in Article 18 of the Basic Law," he said.

"You cannot allow any area within the Hong Kong SAR to be an exception because the protection promised to Hong Kong people is everywhere within the SAR administrative region," he said.

He also told the public broadcaster that he can't understand what Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor meant with her criticism that local lawyers are adopting an "elitist" attitude in this issue.


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## hkskyline

Jan 4, 2018
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_
*Co-location: There is no legal solution, only political solution*

We’re now seeing for the first time in Hong Kong a clash of two vastly different legal systems. If not handled delicately, a constitutional crisis could erupt that rocks the very foundation of one country, two systems. Such a clash of legal systems was inevitable sooner or later. One country, two systems is almost like fitting a square peg into a round hole – a free society within a communist state. The system worked well in its infancy when China wanted to show the world its hands-off approach towards Hong Kong and to use it as a model for unity with Taiwan. A jittery Hong Kong embraced it as the only way to preserve its way of life after reunification.

Its architect, the late Deng Xiaoping, had envisaged the promised fifty years of no change would buy enough time for the mainland to become prosperous like Hong Kong so one country, two systems would give way to true reunification. But China didn’t need fifty years to modernize. Its economy is now second only to that of the US after just twenty years of reunification. That has given it the global clout Deng never imagined when he crafted one country, two systems.

But as China became more confident of its global status and Hong Kong’s yearning for greater democracy grew, the two sides began viewing one country, two systems through very different eyes. Hong Kong people see the Basic Law, our mini-constitution, as a buffer against mainland meddling. Many had expected that aside from opening up economically, the mainland would do so politically too during the fifty years of no change, making it more like Hong Kong.

I don’t know if that was Deng’s intent but as we all know, it hasn’t happened. If anything, Hong Kong people now see China under President Xi Jinping as having become more authoritarian. The central government, however views the Basic Law not as a buffer against its communist rule but as a child of China’s constitution. It didn’t press this point with either words or actions in the past, worried that doing so would unsettle both Hong Kong people and the international community.

But China has started using its new self-confidence under Xi to assert its sovereignty over Hong Kong in ways it never did before to counter rising hostility towards the motherland, especially among young people, many of whom are now even advocating independence. It no longer cares as much as before about how the international community views its behavior towards Hong Kong.

That became evident when the National People’s Congress Standing Committee interpreted the Basic Law in a way that left local courts no choice but to disqualify six opposition legislators for improper oath-taking. Prior to that, it had no qualms about offering a take-it-or-leave-it political reform framework that the opposition rejected as fake universal suffrage which screened out chief executive candidates Beijing didn’t like.

Now, the NPCSC has made another controversial decision, this time without even an interpretation of the Basic Law, that joint-immigration control at the West Kowloon express railway terminus complies with Hong Kong’s mini-constitution even though Article 18 states mainland laws cannot be applied here. How can a decision alone give legal status to something that is otherwise in violation of the Basic Law? Mainland officials insist the NPCSC decision is legally sound because we must view it through the mainland’s constitution, not Hong Kong’s common law system.

It is this reasoning that has pushed Hong Kong into treacherous legal waters. What reigns supreme in Hong Kong? The mainland constitution or Hong Kong’s common law system? Mainland officials, of course, insist China’s constitution is the final authority but most Hong Kong legal experts, including the Bar Association, have likened the NPCSC action to rule by man.

How will Hong Kong navigate itself out of the treacherous legal waters it now finds itself? No one knows but we must face the reality the near-complete HK$84 billion express railway is scheduled to open late this year. Hong Kong and Guangdong have already signed an agreement for the railway to operate. The NPCSC has already decided that stationing mainland officials at the terminus to enforce mainland law complies with the Basic Law.

The final step will come soon when the Legislative Council votes on joint immigration. It’s a foregone conclusion the proposed law will pass now that the establishment camp has a controlling vote following the disqualification of six opposition legislators. A judicial review is almost certain, sucking local courts into a political firestorm.

Local judges are in a no-win situation. There are strong legal arguments that the NPCSC decision to allow joint immigration was not made under any article of the Basic Law and actually violates Article 18. But a legal argument can also be made that such a decision is constitutionally sound under Hong Kong law because the NPCSC is the final authority over China’s constitution and the Basic Law flows from the mainland constitution.

If local courts make a ruling using our common law system, joint immigration could well be declared unconstitutional. That would be a slap in the face of Beijing. The NPCSC would have to counter with a Basic Law interpretation, which nobody wants, not even Beijing. If the local courts rule even NPCSC decisions have legal effect in Hong Kong, many people would lose faith in not only the Basic Law but also one country, two systems.

More : http://www.ejinsight.com/20180104-co-location-there-is-no-legal-solution-only-political-solution/


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## hkskyline

Jan 2, 2018 
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_
*HK celebrates new year with reduction in autonomy*

Hong Kong begins the new year celebrating an odd victory: a voluntary reduction in its China-granted autonomy by “leasing” back to China a portion of a new railway terminal where mainland security personnel will apply mainland law, a development which on the face of it is inconsistent with the Hong Kong Basic Law, the constitutional document of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region enacted by China’s National People’s Congress in 1990.

In order to accommodate the extension of China’s high-speed rail system, the Hong Kong government proposed joint immigration and customs facilities in the West Kowloon Station so trains won’t have to stop at the border.

The idea has been controversial since it was first raised, largely because Article 18 of the Basic Law stipulates that mainland law shall not be applied in Hong Kong, except for a handful that are listed in an annex, such as the law on the national anthem and national flag.

To get around the prohibition, the Hong Kong government came up with the idea of leasing the Mainland Port Area to the mainland so that it will be regarded as “situated in the mainland”.

The West Kowloon arrangement parallels one in 2006 whereby the mainland extended Hong Kong’s borders and gave it control of what is called the Hong Kong Port Area in Shenzhen Bay, where Hong Kong law prevails, for the convenience of travelers between the two sides. There was little if any argument within Hong Kong then.

Hong Kong authorities argue that its plan doesn’t contravene the Basic Law because, instead of extending national laws to the whole of the HKSAR, it applies to only a small area. What Hong Kong’s government wanted was legal backing from China’s parliament.

That is what it got on Dec. 27. That day, the National People’s Congress Standing Committee endorsed the plan for the high-speed rail link, which will connect Hong Kong with Guangzhou and other points in China’s interior. The NPCSC said that the cooperation arrangement was consistent with the Chinese Constitution and with the Basic Law.

Supporters of the plan acknowledge that there is no provision in the Basic Law that provides for such a contingency, since at the time of its adoption no one envisaged the development of a Chinese high-speed rail system.

However, they point to other provisions in the Basic Law that they consider justify the extraordinary move, such as ones that call on the government to “provide an economic and legal environment for encouraging investments, technological progress and the development of new industries” as well as to promote “tourism, real estate, transport” and so on.

The Hong Kong Bar Association, an authoritative body that represents barristers, issued a statement saying it was “appalled by the NPCSC Co-location Decision” and calling it “the most retrograde step to date in the implementation of the Basic Law,” which “severely undermines public confidence in ‘one country, two systems’ and the rule of law in the HKSAR.”

The decision, it said, “amounts to an announcement by the NPCSC that the Co-operation Agreement complies with the Constitution and the Basic Law ‘just because the NPCSC says so’.”

As for the argument that mainland law will only be applied in the Mainland Port Area and not across Hong Kong, the Bar Association said that “such logic, if extended, is capable of authorizing the application of Mainland laws to any part of the HKSAR designated by the HKSAR Government (e.g., the High Court Building).”

The Hong Kong government points out that the idea of allowing China to lease a Mainland Port Area had originated with Hong Kong, not Beijing.

More : http://www.ejinsight.com/20180102-hk-celebrates-new-year-with-reduction-in-autonomy/


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## hkskyline

Sky100 at ICC, Hong Kong by jenn chan, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Hong Kong Bar Association must steer clear of politics, top lawyer warns, as poll contest heats up*
Criminal lawyer Cheng Huan says team vying for control of barristers’ body in election this month has crossed a line by commenting on matters with a political tone
January 10, 2018 
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Hong Kong’s leading criminal lawyer Cheng Huan has warned against any politicisation of the city’s professional body for barristers, saying the Bar Association should only weigh in on the legal aspect of politically divisive issues and not side with any causes.

Cheng is the latest legal eagle to speak out in the lead up to a heated election for the chairmanship of the association, due to take place on January 18.

His comments on Tuesday were seen as targeting the star-studded line-up led by prominent human rights lawyer Philip ***** who will go up against an incumbent team led by chairman Paul Lam Ting-kwok for control of the body. Lam is vying for a second term.

*****’ six-person team, which includes legal heavyweights Professor Johannes Chan Man-mun and criminal law expert Lawrence Lok Ying-kam, have slammed the Bar under Lam’s leadership for failing to issue a timely response over the legality of a contentious joint checkpoint proposal for a high-speed rail link to mainland China. The plan would for the first time allow mainland laws to be enforced on Hong Kong soil and has raised concern in legal circles over whether it complies with the Basic Law, the city’s mini-constitution. 

The ***** team has also argued that the Bar should adopt a more progressive stance in defending the rule of law as the city would face other similar constitutional debates in the coming year.

But speaking to the Post in an exclusive and rare interview on Tuesday, Cheng, a supporter of Lam’s candidacy, said *****’ team had “crossed the Rubicon” by commenting on matters with a political tone rather than a legal one. He said the Bar was an “association of professionals” under the law, not a “political party”.

Cheng acknowledged that the barristers’ body had historically held a duty to uphold the rule of law and judicial independence, which he still believed was important.

But he added: “For the Bar to command continuous respect from the community, it must gain the respect of people across the political spectrum – not confined to one particular cause.”

The barrister of 42 years said it appeared that *****’ team had placed emphasis on the political stances taken by Beijing.

He suggested the correct approach would be to look at the matter in question and decide whether it violated the Basic Law, and specify reasons.

Hong Kong officials and lawyers have been wrestling in recent months with the so-called “co-location arrangement” for the rail checkpoint, which would see national laws implemented in a section of the train station inside Hong Kong, despite a provision of the Basic Law stating that should not happen.

Article 18 of the mini-constitution states that national laws shall not be applied to Hong Kong unless added to Annexe III.

Cheng acknowledged the barristers’ body had a duty to uphold the rule of law and judicial independence. Photo: David Wong
But the National People’s Congress Standing Committee, China’s top legislative body, last month decided the arrangement did not violate the Basic Law because mainland laws would only be implemented in part of the city.

That prompted the Bar Association to issue a stern statement saying it was “appalled” with the plan, which it said would severely undermine the rule of law.

But for Cheng, the arrangement was more of a “practical” matter.

“There is no great moral or legal principle involved in my view,” he said.

“It’s more of a question of convenience that one is able to travel as quickly and as efficiently as possible to one part of China – Hong Kong – to another part of China.”

While some said the Bar statement was too strongly worded, Cheng said he respected the body’s position as he knew it had worked hard to come up with a statement on the legal issues without crossing a line.


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## hkskyline

Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_
Jan 9, 2018 
*HKBA boss says Beijing’s co-location decision a major earthquake*

The National People’s Congress Standing Committee (NPCSC) does have the power to interpret the Basic Law, Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, but the rationale it used to back the co-location arrangement for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link was unconvincing and difficult to understand, says Hong Kong Bar Association chairman Paul Lam Ting-kwok.

In a speech at a ceremony opening the Legal Year 2018, Lam described NPCSC’s decision to approve the border-control plan as a major earthquake in the Hong Kong legal community, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports.

The co-location plan allows for mainland authorities to carry out their duties only in the Mainland Port Area at the West Kowloon Station in relation to immigration inspection, customs, inspection and quarantine.

The NPCSC said in its resolution late last month that the co-location agreement complied with both the Chinese Constitution and the Basic Law. There will be no contravention of Article 18 of the Basic Law, which states that national laws shall not be applied in Hong Kong, because national laws would not apply to the whole of Hong Kong soil, but just a designated area of the terminus, the Mainland Port Area, according to the resolution.

In a statement issued late last month, the HKBA said the NPCSC’s decision was based on its interpretation of the Basic Law, since no provision of Hong Kong’s mini-constitution provides the source of authority.

While agreeing that the NPCSC’s interpretation of the Basic Law is binding on Hong Kong courts, Lam pointed out that such power of final interpretation is the link between the two systems and also the source of tension, under the “one country, two systems” principle, the HKEJ reported.

This kind of tension can lead to doubts, worries and even fears, and how the NPCSC exercises its power will affect people’s view on whether Beijing is resolute to keep the Basic Law intact, Lam stressed, adding that once negative views emerge, people’s trust and confidence in the rule of law will be diminished, and this will further jeopardize social stability.

As such, Lam called on the central authorities to maintain “a high degree of sensitivity” regarding whether to, when to and how to exercise its potent power, which can easily result in an earthquake in Hong Kong society. In the case of the NPCSC decision on the co-location scheme, he said “an earthquake has occurred”.

That said, Lam believes the rule of law in the city is strong enough to withstand the aftermath of the earthquake caused by the NPCSC’s decision.


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## hkskyline

*Express rail fares will cost up to HK$260 from Hong Kong to Guangdong*
Transport chief Frank Chan announces ticket prices – which are much higher than for existing service and more than previously estimated – after meeting railway officials in Beijing
Jan 15, 2018
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Passengers travelling on the soon-to-open high-speed rail from Hong Kong to Guangdong province will have to pay up to HK$260 (US$33) in fares, HK$50 more than for using the current through-train option and significantly higher than the previously “assumed” prices.

Speaking after meeting with China Railway Corporation officials in Beijing, Hong Kong’s Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan on Monday said both sides had decided on the fares for the high-speed rail, which was set to start running from the third quarter this year.

He said fares for express trains from Hong Kong’s West Kowloon station to Futian in Shenzhen city, Shenzhen North, Humen in Dongguan city, and Guangdong South would cost HK$80, HK$90, HK$210 and HK$260 respectively.

Such prices were higher than “assumed fares” the government gave earlier, which were calculated based partly on patronage forecasts.

In 2009, it was said that fares to Shenzhen would cost HK$45 to HK$49, with the figures raised to HK$53-HK$57 in 2016. Over the same period, the fare to Humen was raised from HK$131 to HK$153, and to Guangdong, from HK$180 to HK$210.

“Compared with travelling to Guangzhou by through train, which costs HK$210, [the express rail] is attractive because of speed, level of comfort and time,” Chan said in Beijing on Monday.


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## hkskyline

*Joint checkpoint plan for Hong Kong’s express rail link ‘cannot be challenged’ by city, Beijing official says*
Basic Law Committee vice-chairman Zhang Rongshun dubs plan an ‘act of state’ that falls under the Basic Law’s Article 19 provisions
January 13, 2018
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

The decision to allow national laws to be enforced in part of Hong Kong’s cross-border express rail terminus was an “act of state” that cannot be challenged by local courts, a Beijing official said on Saturday.

Basic Law Committee vice-chairman Zhang Rongshun said the top legislative body’s endorsement of the joint checkpoint, or so-called “co-location” plan, in December was an act of state under the Basic Law’s Article 19, which stipulates that Hong Kong courts “shall have no jurisdiction over acts of state such as defence and foreign affairs”.

The comments from Zhang, who is also the vice-chairman of the National People’s Congress Standing Committee’s Legislative Affairs Commission, marked the first time Beijing had cited the effect of the NPCSC decisions on Hong Kong under Article 19.

Pan-democrats and some legal experts, including members of the Bar Association, have slammed the co-location plan for lacking a legal basis under the Basic Law. The plan will see part of the West Kowloon terminus for the rail link to Guangzhou leased to the mainland and allows national laws to be enforced there.

Speaking at a Shenzen closed-door annual meeting of semi-official mainland think tank, The Chinese Association of Hong Kong and Macau Studies, Zhang hit out at critics for politicising the issue and creating misunderstandings towards the legal status of the arrangement.

Some had claimed the decision made by the NPCSC and the Hong Kong government was made without proper grounds, and they refused to accept the special constitutional order laid down by the nation’s constitution and the Basic Law, Zhang was quoted as saying in the meeting.

Lau Siu-kai, vice-chairman of the association, who first told the Post about the effect of Article 19 earlier this month, said while such interpretations of the clause were a common understanding among mainland scholars, it was the first time that a Beijing official had to say so, probably due to fears of provoking opposition.

Zhang’s remarks contrasted those of Basic Law Committee member Maria Tam Wai-chu, who had said that the NPCSC’s decision on the co-location plan had “no direct binding power” over the city, as they were equivalent to mainland laws and not local laws.

Tam said it was instead a “looped three-step” process including local legislation that formed the legal basis for the arrangement.

Critics on Saturday were alarmed by Zhang’s remarks, arguing the acts of the central government or NPCSC should not be regarded as “acts of state”.

Democratic Party founding chairman Martin Lee Chu-ming, who sat on the committee that drafted the Basic Law, said “acts of state” was a common law concept under which the interpretation was different from acts of government.

“Hong Kong is running under a common law system, not mainland law. The Basic Law should always be viewed through the lens of common law,” he argued.

Lee added that many judicial cases were filed against the government in the city, as to demonstrate the separation of powers. Hence, acts of the central government or NPCSC were not acts of state, he said.

Civic Party chairman, Senior Counsel Alan Leong Kah-kit, said “acts of state” referred to acts between states, commonly at a stage of war.

He mocked Zhang, claiming he viewed the NPCSC as omniscient and questioned if the NPCSC could define what amounted to “acts of state” as they wished.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...t-plan-hong-kongs-express-rail-link-cannot-be


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## hkskyline

*Stretching the Basic Law to fit Hong Kong’s high-speed rail plan puts ‘one country, two systems’ at risk*
Cliff Buddle says there is no clear justification under the Basic Law for the wholesale application of mainland laws in a part of Hong Kong. Attempts to get around the city’s legal framework will have far-reaching consequences
January 17, 2018
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

The legal issues raised by plans for a high-speed railway linking Hong Kong with the rest of China go well beyond the creation of a convenient way to travel.

They concern the tensions between the different legal systems on either side of the border. The way the issues are resolved will have far-reaching implications for Hong Kong’s constitutional relationship with Beijing.

These tensions are not new. Eighteen years ago, when Hong Kong courts were first grappling with the consequences of the city’s return to China, I recall two appeal judges appearing shocked and offended by what were seen as novel arguments submitted on behalf of the city’s government.

The judges were faced with submissions that the clear wording of Hong Kong’s de-facto constitution, the Basic Law, should be overridden by statements from China’s legislature. “So, really, we can rip up the Basic Law and just look at what people have got to say about it,” said one indignant judge, in response to arguments that the court should follow a ruling by the National People’s Congress Standing Committee in Beijing, even if it viewed the law differently.

The other remarked, rather dryly, that the government was submitting the court had “to do as we are told”.

This courtroom exchange has long faded in people’s memories, but the reaction of the Bar Association, a prominent branch of Hong Kong’s legal profession, to the rail link plans announced last month struck a similar note.

The Bar Association said it was appalled by Beijing’s assertion that the rail link arrangements complied with the law “just because the [NPC Standing Committee] says so”. It added: “Such an unprecedented move is the most retrograde step to date in the implementation of the Basic Law, and severely undermines public confidence in ‘one country, two systems’ and the rule of law [in Hong Kong].”

The Bar has come under fire for adopting such strong language and failing to respect China’s legal system. But, just like those judges 18 years ago, it has grasped the root of the problem.

What happens when Beijing acts in a way which appears to breach the Basic Law? The National People’s Congress is the highest organ of state power in China and, under the mainland system, its word is effectively law.

But in Hong Kong, we have a common law legal system. The government is expected to comply with what the Basic Law says. And if it fails to do that, our independent judiciary will intervene.

The problem with the rail link plans is that they involve mainland officials applying mainland laws at part of the station in West Kowloon and on the trains when they are in Hong Kong. There does not appear to be any clear support for such an arrangement in the Basic Law.

Using mainland laws in Hong Kong is a highly sensitive issue because of the difference between the two legal systems. Hong Kong’s system provides stronger protection of rights and freedoms. Things which are considered a crime under mainland law are perfectly legal in Hong Kong. The final say in court cases lies with Hong Kong’s judiciary.

More : http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight...basic-law-fit-hong-kongs-high-speed-rail-plan


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## hkskyline

*High-speed Hong Kong rail link has to be on right track*
When it comes down to ticket prices and services, the authorities must get their numbers right on the HK$84 billion connection between West Kowloon and Guangzhou
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
January 20, 2018

Compared to the raging joint checkpoint row or the cost overrun debacles of the cross-border high-speed rail link, the fares announced by the Hong Kong government this week are certainly less contentious. But they are no less important and affect the willingness of travellers to use the service and, ultimately, the viability of what is said to be the world’s most expensive rail link. The authorities must ensure they get their numbers right.

In a joint decision with the China Railway Corporation, a ticket to Guangzhou South stationwill cost HK$260, HK$50 more than the existing through train from Hung Hom to Guangzhou East.

Trips to Shenzhen Futian and Shenzhen North will cost HK$80 and HK$90 respectively.

The fares are not just 24 per cent to 58 per cent higher than the estimates by the government in 2016; they are also more expensive compared with cross-border buses and ferries.

Transport and housing chief Frank Chan Fan is adamant that the express rail fares are attractive, because the journey will be quicker and more comfortable. But whether it is worth the price is open to debate. The existing alternatives are also competitive in terms of fares and service quality.

Also affecting competitiveness are the train frequencies as well as the connections beyond Guangzhou. According to Chan, there will be 228 services running daily between Hong Kong and the mainland stations on 130 peak days during the year. Frequent as it seems, most northbound trains will not go beyond the two Shenzhen stations. The frequencies during the rest of the year are unclear at this stage, as are fares for connections beyond Guangzhou.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> *High-speed Hong Kong rail link has to be on right track*
> When it comes down to ticket prices and services, the authorities must get their numbers right on the HK$84 billion connection between West Kowloon and Guangzhou
> South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
> January 20, 2018
> 
> Compared to the raging joint checkpoint row or the cost overrun debacles of the cross-border high-speed rail link, the fares announced by the Hong Kong government this week are certainly less contentious. But they are no less important and affect the willingness of travellers to use the service and, ultimately, the viability of what is said to be the world’s most expensive rail link. The authorities must ensure they get their numbers right.
> 
> In a joint decision with the China Railway Corporation, a ticket to Guangzhou South stationwill cost HK$260, HK$50 more than the existing through train from Hung Hom to Guangzhou East.
> 
> Trips to Shenzhen Futian and Shenzhen North will cost HK$80 and HK$90 respectively.
> 
> The fares are not just 24 per cent to 58 per cent higher than the estimates by the government in 2016; they are also more expensive compared with cross-border buses and ferries.
> 
> Transport and housing chief Frank Chan Fan is adamant that the express rail fares are attractive, because the journey will be quicker and more comfortable. But whether it is worth the price is open to debate. The existing alternatives are also competitive in terms of fares and service quality.
> 
> Also affecting competitiveness are the train frequencies as well as the connections beyond Guangzhou. According to Chan, there will be 228 services running daily between Hong Kong and the mainland stations on 130 peak days during the year. Frequent as it seems, most northbound trains will not go beyond the two Shenzhen stations. The frequencies during the rest of the year are unclear at this stage, as are fares for connections beyond Guangzhou.



The majority of train services as mentioned will be between HK and Shenzhen. For which the new train service will be HKD$60 cheaper than the ferry and will take a quarter of the time. Compared to the buses from Kowloon, it will be slightly over double the price but will be significantly half the travel time. It would be double the base fare (about equal to 1st Class Fare) on the MTR but a third of the travel time.

So overall, I think it not unreasonable.


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## hkskyline

If the purpose of building such an expensive underground HSR line is to give a faster commute to Shenzhen, then this was a huge white elephant and an absolute waste of taxpayers' money.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> If the purpose of building such an expensive underground HSR line is to give a faster commute to Shenzhen, then this was a huge white elephant and an absolute waste of taxpayers' money.


Naturally, that is not the whole and singular purpose of the project. Just as the costs of getting to Guangzhou should not have been the only measure as mentioned in the SCMP article. The project as a whole will be proven not to be a white elephant once it is opened and operating, as it should be with the joint controls. As it has been proven to work in so many other places.

It would be interesting to see how many members of the HK Bar Association have worked on legal cases stemming from HK Authorities performing their duties in their leased concession at the Shenzhen Bay Control Point.


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## hkskyline

Short said:


> Naturally, that is not the whole and singular purpose of the project. Just as the costs of getting to Guangzhou should not have been the only measure as mentioned in the SCMP article. The project as a whole will be proven not to be a white elephant once it is opened and operating, as it should be with the joint controls. As it has been proven to work in so many other places.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how many members of the HK Bar Association have worked on legal cases stemming from HK Authorities performing their duties in their leased concession at the Shenzhen Bay Control Point.


I don't think mainland Chinese are worried that Hong Kong laws apply at Shenzhen Bay, but vice versa doesn't hold.

The whole problem starts from scheduling (why most frequencies terminate at Shenzhen and Guangzhou), then the huge price differential when Guangzhou South is nowhere near the central business district so the time savings and hence price premium don't make sense anymore.


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## ccdk

In Chinese media the hype for HSR journey to Hong Kong is already running high. Dozens if not more news pieces "presume" a connection at Guangzhou South regardless where the journey originates. They will look into the time it takes to reach GZ South from wherever the journey starts, then add the time to reach HK to calculate the total journey time.

It might be possible that, the main service of HKHSR, is to carry commuters between HK and Shenzhen, and holiday goers to GZ South. CRH and HKHSR could establish some sort of revenue sharing model for holiday goers with connection at GZ south, just a thought.


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## hkskyline

*Hong Kong courts can challenge government’s bid to write joint checkpoint into law, says justice minister*
But Teresa Cheng, making her first comments on the ongoing controversy, maintained that the plan was constitutionally sound
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
January 21, 2018

The city’s courts would be able to challenge the government’s proposal for mainland laws to apply in part of a station on the Hong Kong side of a cross-border rail link under construction, Hong Kong’s justice minister said on Sunday.

But Secretary for Justice Teresa Cheng Yeuk-wah added that the proposed legislation – supported by China’s top legislative body – for mainland officials to handle customs and immigrations procedures for travellers in both directions was constitutionally sound, despite two professional legal bodies questioning if this was really so.

In her first comments on the ongoing controversy, Cheng, who was appointed to her post earlier this month, said: “After the [local] legislation is made, the court has the power to look into whether [the legislation] is contravening the Basic Law.”

The government is set to submit local legislation for a joint checkpoint at the West Kowloon terminus of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link to the Legislative Council by next month, as it is gunning for the rail link to start operations in the third quarter of this year.

But the city’s legal experts maintain that the plan, known as co-location, contravenes the Basic Law.

The city’s mini-constitution, they have highlighted, states that barring a few exceptions, mainland laws must not be applied in Hong Kong. The exceptions include laws that relate to defence, foreign affairs and “other matters outside the limits” of the autonomy given to the city.

Cheng’s comment on what the courts could do was in contrast to the most recent statement on the matter by a mainland official.

Zhang Rongshun, who is vice-chairman of the Basic Law Committee, earlier this month said that the National People’s Congress Standing Committee’s (NPCSC) decision on co-location was an “act of state” under Basic Law Article 19, which stipulates that Hong Kong courts “shall have no jurisdiction over acts of state such as defence and foreign affairs”.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> I don't think mainland Chinese are worried that Hong Kong laws apply at Shenzhen Bay, but vice versa doesn't hold.


Which makes the whole argument by the Bar Association and others seem that much more hypocritical. Why can the joint controls work at Shenzhen Bay but never at West Kowloon Terminus? Why can HK law be enforced on leased property outside of Hong Kong but not the other way round? There is no great loss in sovereignty and the system works. It has been proven through a decade of operation that it is possible. It makes travel between HK and Shekou, especially to Shenzhen Airport much easier, improving business and peoples lives in general. I am not talking about people's opinion or apathy, I am talking about in legal terms. How is it okay to enforce HK law at a joint control point on mainland territory but not at WKT?

Singapore and Malaysia have had a rocky relationship since Singapore declared itself independent over 50 years ago. It is part of the reason that the Malaysian government owned KTM railway into downtown Singapore was forcibly closed in 2011. With a plan to even close the Woodlands station on the edge of Singapore, so there will be no KTM owned or operated property in Singapore beyond 2024. Yet even they agree that the new high speed rail link will have joint control points both in Malaysia and Singapore, in order to have the most efficient means of operation and to create the greatest benefit for all.


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## hkskyline

Short said:


> Which makes the whole argument by the Bar Association and others seem that much more hypocritical. Why can the joint controls work at Shenzhen Bay but never at West Kowloon Terminus? Why can HK law be enforced on leased property outside of Hong Kong but not the other way round? There is no great loss in sovereignty and the system works. It has been proven through a decade of operation that it is possible. It makes travel between HK and Shekou, especially to Shenzhen Airport much easier, improving business and peoples lives in general. I am not talking about people's opinion or apathy, I am talking about in legal terms. How is it okay to enforce HK law at a joint control point on mainland territory but not at WKT?
> 
> Singapore and Malaysia have had a rocky relationship since Singapore declared itself independent over 50 years ago. It is part of the reason that the Malaysian government owned KTM railway into downtown Singapore was forcibly closed in 2011. With a plan to even close the Woodlands station on the edge of Singapore, so there will be no KTM owned or operated property in Singapore beyond 2024. Yet even they agree that the new high speed rail link will have joint control points both in Malaysia and Singapore, in order to have the most efficient means of operation and to create the greatest benefit for all.


The Hong Kong Bar Association has no authority over what laws apply on mainland Chinese soil. If there are concerns that Hong Kong laws apply in China, mainland Chinese scholars need to voice out and decide for themselves, just like Hong Kong lawyers now voice out against applying mainland laws on Hong Kong territory, and the absurd reasons given that it abides with the Basic Law.


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## jchk

Just discovered some photos of the main concourse posted by Gaoloumi user r848984 on this thread.




























Edit: Have since realised that they are screengrabs from this progress update, which is well worth reading to those who understand Chinese.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> The Hong Kong Bar Association has no authority over what laws apply on mainland Chinese soil. If there are concerns that Hong Kong laws apply in China, mainland Chinese scholars need to voice out and decide for themselves, just like Hong Kong lawyers now voice out against applying mainland laws on Hong Kong territory, and the absurd reasons given that it abides with the Basic Law.


That does not answer the question. The Hong Kong Bar Association will have members who have participated in legal cases concerning incidents involving HK Authorities enforcing HK laws at Shenzhen Bay Control Point. HK police can make arrests, HK customs and immigration can enforce their policies and procedure and all on mainland soil. In legal terms, how is this different to what is proposed at West Kowloon Terminus? When the scope, access and legal proceedings can be clearly defined to the rail terminus and the line itself, it will prove to be no different to how the diplomatic missions are handled within Hong Kong.

Can a single incident be named where joint controls have been implemented and caused detriment to the host nation? No, because it works. Having a single point of entry and control frees up the system to operate efficiently and creates economic value to both parties involved.


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## YannSZ

^^ Aye


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## jchk

Short said:


> That does not answer the question. The Hong Kong Bar Association will have members who have participated in legal cases concerning incidents involving HK Authorities enforcing HK laws at Shenzhen Bay Control Point. HK police can make arrests, HK customs and immigration can enforce their policies and procedure and all on mainland soil. In legal terms, how is this different to what is proposed at West Kowloon Terminus? When the scope, access and legal proceedings can be clearly defined to the rail terminus and the line itself, it will prove to be no different to how the diplomatic missions are handled within Hong Kong.
> 
> Can a single incident be named where joint controls have been implemented and caused detriment to the host nation? No, because it works. Having a single point of entry and control frees up the system to operate efficiently and creates economic value to both parties involved.


From a practical perspective, you are absolutely right. Joint controls are convenient, and as a future user of the railway, I will very much appreciate the convenience.

From a *legal* perspective, though, I think you miss the point. The fact that HK enforces its laws in Shenzhen Bay does not mean anything per se. Just because the Chinese constitution allows HK to enforce its laws in some parts of the Mainland does not automatically mean that enforcing Mainland law in any part of HK is consistent with Basic Law. I'm sure you can think of actions that are legal in some countries but not others; this is no different. 

This also highlights a key difference between the legal systems of HK and the Mainland. Even if enforcing HK laws on the Mainland _were_ inconsistent with the Chinese constitution, the NPC could simply amend or interpret the constitution to allow for this exception. In HK, even if there is political consensus to allow Mainland law to be enforced in HK, the independent judiciary has the right and obligation to point out that this is inconsistent with Basic Law; this is not a normative judgment (they might very well think co-location is an excellent practical solution), but a legal judgment.


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## hkskyline

Short said:


> That does not answer the question. The Hong Kong Bar Association will have members who have participated in legal cases concerning incidents involving HK Authorities enforcing HK laws at Shenzhen Bay Control Point. HK police can make arrests, HK customs and immigration can enforce their policies and procedure and all on mainland soil. In legal terms, how is this different to what is proposed at West Kowloon Terminus? When the scope, access and legal proceedings can be clearly defined to the rail terminus and the line itself, it will prove to be no different to how the diplomatic missions are handled within Hong Kong.
> 
> Can a single incident be named where joint controls have been implemented and caused detriment to the host nation? No, because it works. Having a single point of entry and control frees up the system to operate efficiently and creates economic value to both parties involved.


One Country Two Systems is meant to protect Hong Kong's freedoms and legal system, and not protecting China from Hong Kong's rule of law. By that logic, Shenzhen Bay cannot be compared against West Kowloon. The government wants to fool the public they are equivalent in the PR campaign, but in reality it is not.

An efficient solution may not be the legal one. That's the legal argument happening now. How much are Hong Kongers willing to sacrifice for convenience? Clearly, enforcing Hong Kong laws in China is not equivalent to enforcing Chinese laws in Hong Kong.


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## hkskyline

*Controversial joint checkpoint plan one step closer to reality as Hong Kong government gazettes 34-page bill*
Pan-dems say arrangement still lacks firm and clear legal basis for allowing mainland laws to be enforced on local soil
January 26, 2018
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

A controversial joint checkpoint plan for a cross-border rail link that would allow mainland Chinese officials to operate on Hong Kong soil became more of a done deal as it was officially gazetted by the city’s government on Friday.

Opposition lawmakers slammed the bill – scheduled for its first reading at the Legislative Council on Wednesday – saying it still lacked a “firm and clear” legal justification as to why mainland laws could be enforced over part of the West Kowloon station of the high-speed rail link to Guangzhou, calling it a violation of the Basic Law, the city’s mini-constitution.

A pro-establishment lawmaker also complained that the bill failed to address Hongkongers’ concerns about their rights in the zone leased to mainland authorities where national laws would be applied.

The local legislation for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (Co-location) Bill will be the third and final step in the administration’s so-called “three-step process”, following an agreement with Guangdong provincial governor Ma Xingrui and endorsement by Beijing’s top legislative body, the National People’s Congress Standing Committee, last month.

The 34-page bill states that a designated area inside the station will be reserved as the mainland port area, which will be regarded as “lying outside Hong Kong but lying within the mainland”. However, it stipulates that the arrangement does not affect the boundary of the administrative division of the Hong Kong special administrative region.

The bill has incorporated three articles of the co-location agreement between Hong Kong and the mainland, including the six circumstances under which the city would exercise jurisdiction in the mainland port area. These circumstances are mainly related to the operation of the rail link, such as the regulation and monitoring of the safety of the railway system.

But University of Hong Kong principal law lecturer Eric Cheung Tat-ming said while the three articles were incorporated in a schedule of the bill, it did not further elaborate on the “reserved and non-reserved” matters in legal terms.

“Even the court’s jurisdiction is unclear in the bill, and these grey areas could be problematic,” Cheung said.


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## FM 2258

hkskyline said:


> *Express rail fares will cost up to HK$260 from Hong Kong to Guangdong*
> Transport chief Frank Chan announces ticket prices – which are much higher than for existing service and more than previously estimated – after meeting railway officials in Beijing
> Jan 15, 2018
> South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
> 
> Passengers travelling on the soon-to-open high-speed rail from Hong Kong to Guangdong province will have to pay up to HK$260 (US$33) in fares, HK$50 more than for using the current through-train option and significantly higher than the previously “assumed” prices.
> 
> Speaking after meeting with China Railway Corporation officials in Beijing, Hong Kong’s Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan on Monday said both sides had decided on the fares for the high-speed rail, which was set to start running from the third quarter this year.
> 
> He said fares for express trains from Hong Kong’s West Kowloon station to Futian in Shenzhen city, Shenzhen North, Humen in Dongguan city, and Guangdong South would cost HK$80, HK$90, HK$210 and HK$260 respectively.
> 
> Such prices were higher than “assumed fares” the government gave earlier, which were calculated based partly on patronage forecasts.
> 
> In 2009, it was said that fares to Shenzhen would cost HK$45 to HK$49, with the figures raised to HK$53-HK$57 in 2016. Over the same period, the fare to Humen was raised from HK$131 to HK$153, and to Guangdong, from HK$180 to HK$210.
> 
> “Compared with travelling to Guangzhou by through train, which costs HK$210, [the express rail] is attractive because of speed, level of comfort and time,” Chan said in Beijing on Monday.


This makes me wonder. Will the Cathay Dragon flight from HKG-CAN end with this rail opening? From what I see today it's HK$1325 one way.


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## hkskyline

FM 2258 said:


> This makes me wonder. Will the Cathay Dragon flight from HKG-CAN end with this rail opening? From what I see today it's HK$1325 one way.


The current thru-train already is competitive with flying, taking just under 2 hours to Guangzhou East. But that flight is not intended to compete against rail, but rather make connections easier thru HK (compete against CZ).


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## tjrgx

*Hong Kong, China Railway Iron Out Details for High-Speed Link*

https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-0...ut-details-for-high-speed-link-101205027.html

(Hong Kong) — The Hong Kong government and the state-owned China Railway Corp. have signed a preliminary agreement on how a high-speed railway connecting the region to the mainland will be operated, as the rail link nears its launch day.

The 140-kilometer (87-mile) Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link is expected to begin operation in the third quarter of this year, hooking up Hong Kong with China’s national high-speed rail network.

According to the agreement signed Monday by Hong Kong Transport Secretary Frank Chan and China Railway General Office Director Han Jiangping, 127 trains will run daily between Hong Kong and the mainland. That includes direct long-haul trains to 17 mainland destinations — the most direct trains announced in a planning document so far.

Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam, who witnessed the signing, said in a statement that Monday’s agreement also laid down a “consensus in principle on financial and operational matters by both parties.”

However, according to Chan, Hong Kong and China Railway have not yet reached an agreement on the rail link’s profit-sharing arrangement.

The Express Rail Link was initially slated for completion in 2015. But budget overruns, a corruption investigation, and disagreement over the choice to locate mainland checkpoints within Hong Kong have pushed the rail link’s commissioning date to past mid-2018.

Nevertheless, Secretary Chan said Monday, assuming the Express Rail Link has a 50-year life, the Hong Kong government was “of the opinion that the Express Rail Link would be having a very healthy financial outcome by the end of this cycle.”

The rail link isn’t the only ongoing massive infrastructure project aimed at bringing Hong Kong closer to the mainland. The world’s longest bridge over water, connecting the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau with Zhuhai in Guangdong province, is expected to open to traffic this year.


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## hkskyline

*Fare's fair as rail sets short-haul prices*
16 Jan 2018
The Standard _Excerpt_

Fares on the Express Rail Link from West Kowloon will cost HK$80 to Futian and HK$260 to Guangzhou South.

Speaking after a meeting with China Railway in Beijing yesterday, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan said there will be 114 pairs of trains operating on the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link each day during peak seasons such as summer holidays and public holidays in Hong Kong and the mainland.

He said 130 days per year will be considered peak season.

That compares with Chan's estimate last November of 114 trains each way every day in the initial stage of operations.

Chan said 84 trains will head to Futian and Shenzhen North, while 30 will travel to Humen and Guangzhou South.

Trips to Futian will cost HK$80, while those to Shenzhen North will be priced at HK$90. For passengers going to Humen and Guangzhou South, prices will be HK$210 and HK$260, respectively.

"The fare price is attractive compared with the current intercity through trains, which cost HK$210 per trip, because express rail enjoys an advantage in speed, degree of comfort and time," Chan said.

During non-peak days, the frequency of trains will depend on the number of passengers and can be modified depending on future occupancy rates.

As Chan said, a first-class ticket on an intercity through train from Hung Hom to Guangzhou East costs HK$210, which is HK$50 cheaper than the express rail.

If passengers take the MTR from Kowloon to Futian, they would go from Hung Hom to Lok Ma Chau, which costs HK$38.10.

They can then pass through the Futian checkpoint and take the Shenzhen Metro to Futian Station, which only costs HK$2.40, meaning the whole trip only costs only HK$40.50.

If passengers want to go to Shenzhen North by Shenzhen Metro, they only need to pay HK$4.90 from Futian checkpoint to Shenzhen North, meaning they should pay HK$43 in total.

Passengers can also walk to the Futian express rail station and transfer to Humen and Guangzhou South, respectively.

Tickets from Futian to Humen are currently 45 yuan (HK$55) - meaning it only costs HK$95.20 from Hung Hom to Humen.

It costs 82 yuan from Futian to Guangzhou South, meaning commuters only need to pay HK$140 from Hung Hom to that station.


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## maginn

hkskyline said:


> *Fare's fair as rail sets short-haul prices*
> 
> Passengers can also walk to the Futian express rail station and transfer to Humen and Guangzhou South, respectively.
> 
> Tickets from Futian to Humen are currently 45 yuan (HK$55) - meaning it only costs HK$95.20 from Hung Hom to Humen.
> 
> It costs 82 yuan from Futian to Guangzhou South, meaning commuters only need to pay HK$140 from Hung Hom to that station.


This part doesn't make any sense, "walk to Futian station" from where?


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## hkskyline

maginn said:


> This part doesn't make any sense, "walk to Futian station" from where?


I think they meant walking from Futian subway station to the express rail station.


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## hkskyline

Tai Shan (Chu Kong Passenger Transport) by Howard Pulling, on Flickr


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## Short

maginn said:


> This part doesn't make any sense, "walk to Futian station" from where?


The article is trying to state the cost of travelling to the Futian 'Metro' station, then expands to then include the high speed services departing from Futian 'Railway' station and means the short walk between the two neighbouring stations.

The biggest flaw in the article is in the terms of the time needed to conduct either journey. With an estimated 49 minutes for the journey from Hung Hom to Lok Ma Chau, the time needed to cross the border (that can be slow & varies across the time of day and holiday periods) and then the need to take two separate Shenzhen metro trains from Futian Checkpoint to Futian requiring another 23 minutes. Compared to a single train journey of 14 minutes, plus the faster streamlined joint border process, meaning a possible saving of possibly up to an hour or more.

As with any journey, it depends on where someone is in Shenzhen or Hong Kong and where their destination is. The mode of transport varies greatly but serves people in different ways. The comfort factor also matters, such as the First Class MTR service. Or crossing by hired Nanny Van via Shenzhen Bay Checkpoint, because you do not need to leave the vehicle. Likewise many people vary their choice of border crossing, pending on the time of day, holidays and situation on either side, as all of this impacts on the possible crossing time.

The current MTR provides good access to Luohu or Futian, however I know plenty of people who rather catch the more expensive ferry (HKD$140), because it good connecting with either airport, Shekou and Nanshan locations and the border crossing is less hectic. Buses are good for those on a budget or conveniently go to more destinations.

Travelling via West Kowloon Terminus will simply add to the current mix of travel options. While it is more expensive compared to the MTR or bus, it is 42% cheaper than the ferry let alone a taxi, while being faster than all the options. Each will find their market according to the needs of everyone travelling.


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## hkskyline

Short said:


> The article is trying to state the cost of travelling to the Futian 'Metro' station, then expands to then include the high speed services departing from Futian 'Railway' station and means the short walk between the two neighbouring stations.
> 
> The biggest flaw in the article is in the terms of the time needed to conduct either journey. With an estimated 49 minutes for the journey from Hung Hom to Lok Ma Chau, the time needed to cross the border (that can be slow & varies across the time of day and holiday periods) and then the need to take two separate Shenzhen metro trains from Futian Checkpoint to Futian requiring another 23 minutes. Compared to a single train journey of 14 minutes, plus the faster streamlined joint border process, meaning a possible saving of possibly up to an hour or more.
> 
> As with any journey, it depends on where someone is in Shenzhen or Hong Kong and where their destination is. The mode of transport varies greatly but serves people in different ways. The comfort factor also matters, such as the First Class MTR service. Or crossing by hired Nanny Van via Shenzhen Bay Checkpoint, because you do not need to leave the vehicle. Likewise many people vary their choice of border crossing, pending on the time of day, holidays and situation on either side, as all of this impacts on the possible crossing time.
> 
> The current MTR provides good access to Luohu or Futian, however I know plenty of people who rather catch the more expensive ferry (HKD$140), because it good connecting with either airport, Shekou and Nanshan locations and the border crossing is less hectic. Buses are good for those on a budget or conveniently go to more destinations.
> 
> Travelling via West Kowloon Terminus will simply add to the current mix of travel options. While it is more expensive compared to the MTR or bus, it is 42% cheaper than the ferry let alone a taxi, while being faster than all the options. Each will find their market according to the needs of everyone travelling.


The cheaper but longer journey reflects a perfectly do-able alternative than taking the expensive new HSR. I would think comparing against the existing thru-train out of Hung Hom to be more realistic though. Factoring in the commute from Guangzhou South into the city, the thru-train to Guangzhou East actually remains very competitive against the new line if not even more convenient and at a better price.

Leisure travelers are not in a particular hurry to justify the premium anyway. So is this going to turn out to be a business class-only train?

For those living in the New Territories, commuting into Shenzhen and catching the train from there makes far more sense. 

So the question remains why were taxpayer dollars spent in the billions, including overruns, to build this when the prices are not really competitive at all?


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> The cheaper but longer journey reflects a perfectly do-able alternative than taking the expensive new HSR. I would think comparing against the existing thru-train out of Hung Hom to be more realistic though. Factoring in the commute from Guangzhou South into the city, the thru-train to Guangzhou East actually remains very competitive against the new line if not even more convenient and at a better price.
> 
> Leisure travelers are not in a particular hurry to justify the premium anyway. So is this going to turn out to be a business class-only train?
> 
> For those living in the New Territories, commuting into Shenzhen and catching the train from there makes far more sense.
> 
> So the question remains why were taxpayer dollars spent in the billions, including overruns, to build this when the prices are not really competitive at all?


That is just taking the view of the railway being solely for intercity commuting around the Pearl River Delta. If it was a standalone disconnected project, just for that purpose, then it certainly would have questionable benefit and justification. However that is not it's sole reason for being. It is part of a larger interconnected high speed network, allowing connections around Mainland China with HK. Just as the Guangzhou Through Train is not the sole conventional train in operation, with the long distance services to Shanghai and Beijing.

The cost of the project is another matter, with it's massive overruns, budget blowouts, bailouts and weather damage. I am not defending the way that the project has been carried out, funded or managed. 

However I do believe that it will not be a 'white elephant' with sufficient passenger traffic to justify it's construction. Yes, people wanting to travel between certain parts of Guangzhou or Shenzhen to/from Hong Kong will continue to travel in the same way as they always have, because of habit, cost or time benefit to suits them. There is certainly enough of a market for the new Expresslink railway to justify it. It is way too early to write the project off.


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> That is just taking the view of the railway being solely for intercity commuting around the Pearl River Delta. If it was a standalone disconnected project, just for that purpose, then it certainly would have questionable benefit and justification. However that is not it's sole reason for being. It is part of a larger interconnected high speed network, allowing connections around Mainland China with HK. Just as the Guangzhou Through Train is not the sole conventional train in operation, with the long distance services to Shanghai and Beijing.
> 
> The cost of the project is another matter, with it's massive overruns, budget blowouts, bailouts and weather damage. I am not defending the way that the project has been carried out, funded or managed.
> 
> However I do believe that it will not be a 'white elephant' with sufficient passenger traffic to justify it's construction. Yes, people wanting to travel between certain parts of Guangzhou or Shenzhen to/from Hong Kong will continue to travel in the same way as they always have, because of habit, cost or time benefit to suits them. There is certainly enough of a market for the new Expresslink railway to justify it. It is way too early to write the project off.


The frequencies being proposed point to this being majority regional train as far north as to Guangzhou. So the savings in time get significantly diminished due to Guangzhou South's poor location to justify the major premium being imposed on the ticket price. Had they proposed more longer distance services, then it would be a different story ...










This graphic from on.cc shows longer distance trains account for only 13 frequencies while short regional trains up to Guangzhou will account for 114 frequencies.


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## saiho

This is my question, what is stopping them from putting more long distance services? I could see more long distance services be put in and short haul services cut back if the existing proposed long haul services are full and there is demand for more direct destinations. A note about Guangzhou South, I see a lot of development happening around the station now it will become a destination in it's own right.


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## chornedsnorkack

saiho said:


> This is my question, what is stopping them from putting more long distance services?


Would that require Hong Kong border guards in small town stations of mainland China?


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## Short

chornedsnorkack said:


> Would that require Hong Kong border guards in small town stations of mainland China?


No, Hong Kong and Chinese formalities would be all conducted at West Kowloon Terminus with the joint checkpoint for arrivals and departures. So there a few limitations in this regard which future services from many cities mainland China to Hong Kong are developed.


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## hkskyline

Pending likely legal challenge on that arrangement ...


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## hkskyline

*Lives come first, says fire chief*
The Standard _Excerpt_
7 Feb 2018 

With the Express Rail Link to be launched soon, saving lives and conducting rescue operations, whether in Hong Kong or on the mainland, in a timely manner will be the top priorities of firefighters, Fire Services chief Daryl Li Kin-yat said.

At the department's year-end press conference, Li said parts of the West Kowloon express rail terminal and the trains themselves are seen as mainland jurisdiction, but local firemen will carry out rescue missions for fires and accidents.

"In emergency operations, we will put people's safety first. We will also refer to previous successful cooperation experiences in the Hong Kong-Shenzhen Western Corridor and other ports," Li said.

If an accident happens in the tunnel, the department will handle the matter like any other fire in Hong Kong.

"If it happens on the train, we will carry out a rescue mission according to the co-operation agreement. The principle is also saving lives while notifying the mainland authorities," he said.


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## hkskyline

*Dodgy mathematics puts the break even point of Hong Kong’s high-speed rail forever away*
While money spent on this project circles back into the economy, that’s also true of anything on which we spend money. It certainly does not release the government of the obligation to spend wisely.
South China Morning Post Excerpt
February 5, 2018

_The HK$84.4 billion cross-border high-speed rail link may become profitable eight years after its launch, Hong Kong’s transport chief said yesterday in an apparent U-turn from an earlier forecast that predicted the project would be operating at a loss for decades. -- SCMP, February 4_

The financial numbers we have been given on this project have always been so skimpy that if they were clothes, we would have an offence against public decency.

But let us make a few assumptions.

The latest estimate of capital cost, after several revisions upwards, stands at HK$84.4 billion (US$10.8 billion). I shall make this HK$90 billion. We still have rolling stock and the usual oops-we-forgot-to-tell-you charges to consider. I think HK$90 billion is a safe bet. I’ll stake a bottle of Scotch on it.

The original forecast for patronage was 99,000 passengers a day. This has since been raised and the last figure I have seen is 109,200. We shall take it.

The original passenger fares ranged between HK$45 to Shenzen, and HK$180 to Guangzhou. The projected Shenzen fare has been doubled, and the Guangzhou one raised by 44 per cent. We shall assume an overall two-thirds increase in fares above the initial projections.

The original medium case scenario projected annual operating revenues of HK$1.118 billion. Account for the higher patronage and fare levels and we shall make this HK$2.05 billion.

The operating cost in all scenarios and all updates of them is HK$733 million. I have my doubts when maintenance of high speed rail in Europe costs as much as 10 per cent per annum of construction cost and our comparable number is no more than one-third of 1 per cent, but okay, we’ll take it.

We shall assume an average depreciation rate of 2 per cent. Tunnels are reckoned good for 100 years but rail track is amortised over as little as seven years and there is a good deal more at less than 10 years.

We shall assume an average interest charge of 3 per cent and we shall apply it to the entirety of the HK$90 billion construction cost. If it is not all debt, it is still a pretty low number for assumed cost of equity. MTR Corp’s interest charges varied from 2.3 per cent to 6.7 per cent last year.

Now put it all together: operating income less operating costs, depreciation and interest charges, and we come to a loss of HK$3.18 billion a year.

More : http://www.scmp.com/business/bankin...ematics-puts-break-even-point-hong-kongs-high


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## Sopomon

hkskyline said:


> *Dodgy mathematics puts the break even point of Hong Kong’s high-speed rail forever away*




I mean, it was clear from the start that the project was a boondoggle. It serves purely a political purpose, to show HK who is boss, and to deaden further calls for independence.

The exact same theory applies to the railway to Lhasa, and the enthusiasm for the absolute pie-in-the-sky nonsense of building an undersea tunnel to Taipei.

It's control through construction and infrastructure. Neocolonialism at its finest.


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## hkskyline

Sopomon said:


> I mean, it was clear from the start that the project was a boondoggle. It serves purely a political purpose, to show HK who is boss, and to deaden further calls for independence.
> 
> The exact same theory applies to the railway to Lhasa, and the enthusiasm for the absolute pie-in-the-sky nonsense of building an undersea tunnel to Taipei.
> 
> It's control through construction and infrastructure. Neocolonialism at its finest.


Back then, the details of how it would work and how much it would really cost were few to come by so we were a bit more naive and hopeful of the economic benefits. Then all sorts of political repression came since and now people are far more skeptical and vocal over these sorts of things.


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## hkskyline

*Respect decisions by China’s top legislative body just as we did British authorities, Hong Kong minister urges*
Transport secretary Frank Chan Fan defends contentious plans for joint rail checkpoint with mainland China, saying endorsement by National People’s Congress Standing Committee should be adhered to
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
February 12, 2018

Hong Kong’s transport minister was on Monday criticised for comparing China’s top legislative body with Britain’s Privy Council during a grilling in the city’s legislature over plans for a controversial cross-border rail link to the mainland.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan was also slammed by lawmakers for suggesting a Legislative Council bills committee scrutinising the plans should finish its work in just two and a half months.

The committee on Monday kicked off discussion of a bill for a contentious joint checkpoint for the high-speed rail line. The immigration and customs facility is to be based at West Kowloon in Hong Kong but shared between local and mainland Chinese authorities.

Chan said an endorsement given in December for the checkpoint from China’s National People’s Congress Standing Committee should be respected, just as decisions by the Privy Council were back in colonial times.

The express rail link to Guangzhou is scheduled to begin operating in the third quarter of this year. However, opposition pan-democrat lawmakers and legal professionals in Hong Kong have blasted the arrangement, saying it diminishes the city’s autonomy by having mainland Chinese officers operate on Hong Kong soil.

They have demanded the government explain how the arrangement does not breach Article 18 of the Basic Law, Hong Kong’s mini-constitution, which states that no national laws shall be enforced in Hong Kong unless they are added to Annexe III.

On Monday Chan said lawmakers should scrutinise the bill “rationally and pragmatically” so it could be approved by Legco before its summer recess starts in mid-July.


----------



## ScientisT.bass

Sopomon said:


> I mean, it was clear from the start that the project was a boondoggle. It serves purely a political purpose, to show HK who is boss, and to deaden further calls for independence.
> 
> The exact same theory applies to the railway to Lhasa, and the enthusiasm for the absolute pie-in-the-sky nonsense of building an undersea tunnel to Taipei.
> 
> It's control through construction and infrastructure. Neocolonialism at its finest.


"Colonization"?? That is rich. :nuts:


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## ccdk

Sopomon said:


> It's control through construction and infrastructure. Neocolonialism at its finest.


Imagine if HK was still under British "control" and it was an agreement between the British and Chinese gov., they would be waving arms welcoming the agreement. Instead of "scrutinising", they will try hardest thinking of fancy words instead of "control", or "colonisation" praising the project ....... sounds sarcastic but think about it!

I am not trying to defend any side, simply hoping we carry out discussion with rational thinking.


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## Sopomon

> Imagine if HK was still under British "control" and it was an agreement


But it isn't and so everything past that is pure conjecture (which I disagree with anyway), so there's nothing to argue with.
Why would you think a British government would welcome it any more?


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## ccdk

Hongkongers did not have voting rights, neither was there an electoral system when the British was in control. The last governor started developing an electoral system right before the return of HK to China. There has not been any local Hongkonger appointed as Governors throughout the history of the British colonisation, it has always been someone appointed and sent from the kingdom. Guess who was in control of decision making? I might have conveyed my message in a sarcastic tone but it was not pure conjecture.

On the contrary, I wonder how your conjecture about the Chinese being in tight control and practising colonisation on HK came about?


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## hkskyline

As part of the British exit, they initiated reforms to make government more representative of the people. But now those steps have been reversed through recent interventions/reinterpretations, accusations of mainland officials enforcing PRC laws in Hong Kong through abduction, and the imposition of mainland decisions disregaring HK's judicial system. These are far more backwards governance actions than under the British colonial era.


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## Sopomon

ccdk said:


> Hongkongers did not have voting rights...


While this whole post has veered wildly away from my original point, what I will say is that absolutely no one is in denial that HK was a UK colony. Being a colony, of course, there was little room for local politics. You're arguing against a strawman and not my real point. 

Anyway: This is a project that is likely to lose money, and benefit the CCP more than it will benefit the average Hong Konger, with an unhelpful service pattern, cost overruns and questionable legal implications. It has been forced through legislation as the CCP has constructed a 'democracy' in HK where it can only be the case that pro-Beijing yes-men make up the majority of power. Now, we have a project with all the issues mentioned above that have been well-known since the start, yet despite HK being 'free' to choose its own path, we now have white elephants forced on to the city from upon high, while sold to the (incredulous) populace as a Very Good Thing (how, precicely, we just aren't told).

Now, there is a mirror for this, in Africa. There, the only difference is that the countries involved are offered sweet loan deals rather than having to pay up front. Now, here is the Wikipedia definition of Neocolonialism:



> Neocolonialism, neo-colonialism or neo-imperialism is the practice of using capitalism, globalization and cultural imperialism to influence a developing country in lieu of direct military control (imperialism) or indirect political control (hegemony).


Sure, Hong Kong is not a developing country, but we all know how the power balance tips in the relationship.


----------



## ScientisT.bass

Sopomon said:


> While this whole post has veered wildly away from my original point, what I will say is that absolutely no one is in denial that HK was a UK colony. Being a colony, of course, there was little room for local politics. You're arguing against a strawman and not my real point.
> 
> Anyway: This is a project that is likely to lose money, and benefit the CCP more than it will benefit the average Hong Konger, with an unhelpful service pattern, cost overruns and questionable legal implications. It has been forced through legislation as the CCP has constructed a 'democracy' in HK where it can only be the case that pro-Beijing yes-men make up the majority of power. Now, we have a project with all the issues mentioned above that have been well-known since the start, yet despite HK being 'free' to choose its own path, we now have white elephants forced on to the city from upon high, while sold to the (incredulous) populace as a Very Good Thing (how, precicely, we just aren't told).
> 
> Now, there is a mirror for this, in Africa. There, the only difference is that the countries involved are offered sweet loan deals rather than having to pay up front. Now, here is the Wikipedia definition of Neocolonialism:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, Hong Kong is not a developing country, but we all know how the power balance tips in the relationship.




What is good for China good for HK and vice versa.


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## ccdk

Hong Kong has become a victim of its own internal political battle. Specific to this project, if there were less political struggle and was completed on time and on budget, the ticket price wouldn’t have been so high, and cost overrun could have been managed to the minimum. MTR can generate profit through property development around West Kowloon Terminus as it did with other MTR stations. That’s their unique business model. Unless this business model does not apply to West Kowloon Terminus and one will wonder why.

The initial plan is to have 13 destinations with direction connection in the mainland. If HK wants to fully explore the earning potential, it’s inevitable that more destinations in the mainland will be gradually added. Will HK request every train station in every destination with direct connection in the mainland to set up a check point? Or is it more convenient to have one check point in HK and control the flow? which service pattern is unhelpful?

The joint check point is a facility! It’s not like China is claiming a piece of land from HK and diminish its status as an autonomous region, not to mention HK is part of China. It’s fair to compare CCP with politicians and law makers in HK, but it’s fundamentally wrong to say “it will benefit CCP more than average Hong Kongers”. People on both sides will benefit! In this specific case, the “yes-man” you were referring to might be thinking on their feet while the HK law makers and politicians, not sure what they are on.

Talking about neocolonialism and practice of capitalism, forgot China is a communist party state? :lol::lol:


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## cheehg

Canada can accept USA set the Customs inside Canadian Airport. Why not HK accept PRC do the same? The Law is made by people so people can change it too.


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## hkskyline

cheehg said:


> Canada can accept USA set the Customs inside Canadian Airport. Why not HK accept PRC do the same? The Law is made by people so people can change it too.


After US pre-clearance, is the airport terminal subject to US laws and not Canadian laws?


----------



## Sopomon

> forgot China is a communist party state


If you honestly believe that they are Communist in anything other than name alone in this day and age, then there's no hope for you.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> After US pre-clearance, is the airport terminal subject to US laws and not Canadian laws?


Yes, you have formally entered the United States, you can be prosecuted under US law. It is the same deal for the Eurotunnel which is 100% under French control and laws, despite crossing the maritme border. Treaties deal with how offending persons are to be prosecuted, usually involving local authorities before extradition. This is because only customs and immigration personell are the only ones normally stationed at the foreign airports, with a small liaison police staff to help when local police involvement is needed.


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## jchk

Short said:


> Yes, you have formally entered the United States, you can be prosecuted under US law. It is the same deal for the Eurotunnel which is 100% under French control and laws, despite crossing the maritme border. Treaties deal with how offending persons are to be prosecuted, usually involving local authorities before extradition. This is because only customs and immigration personell are the only ones normally stationed at the foreign airports, with a small liaison police staff to help when local police involvement is needed.


I try not to engage in political discussions online, but I think it is necessary to point out that even if it _were_ the case that the US/Canada or UK/France examples were legally comparable to what is happening here (which they are not, for reasons that have already been expressed in earlier posts in this thread), I believe there exists a fundamental difference between your examples and the Hong Kong/mainland China case. As you pointed out, in your examples, there are bilateral treaties that govern how prosecutions and extraditions are dealt with; there is no such treaty, at least to my knowledge, between Hong Kong and the mainland, and Mainland authorities have a history of ignoring Hong Kong's established systems (see, for example, the recent "abductions" of booksellers). 

On the topic of actual _construction_ of the terminus, I came across these new photos on Gaoloumi by user r848984:





































I think the building is looking absolutely fantastic, though am somewhat concerned by the sheer number of security cameras on the lighting columns...


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## Make_TT

*XRL Hong Kong section to hold trial runs in April*

Xinhua | Updated: 2018-01-30 22:03

HONG KONG - Trial runs will be held on April 1 in the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL), said Chairman of the MTR Corporation Ltd. Frederick Ma Si-hang Tuesday.

Ma also urged lawmakers of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) to give green light to the co-location arrangement.

"There is still some fix-up works but basically the station is complete," Ma told Xinhua in an interview.

He said that the 26-km Hong Kong section of the XRL will link up Hong Kong with the mega high-speed rail network of the Chinese Mainland, which has a total length of more than 25,000 km.

Upon the commissioning of the XRL Hong Kong section, the position of Hong Kong as an international city will definitely be promoted, he said, especially when the rail network further extends in the future.

Over 98 percent of the construction of the Hong Kong section is complete and it is expected to commission services before the third quarter of 2018, he added.

There are nine XRL trains in total running from Hong Kong to Guangzhou, according to Ma, saying that the cabins are smaller and there is no restaurant compared with those in the mainland.

The short-haul trains will run between the West Kowloon station and the Futian, Shenzhen North, Humen and Guangzhou South stations.

The West Kowloon Station is terminus to the XRL, where passengers will go through the customs, immigration and quarantine procedures of both Hong Kong and the Chinese mainland successively.

However, before the co-location arrangement can be implemented at the West Kowloon station, the XRL Co-location Bill has to be given three readings in the SAR's Legislative Council (LegCo).

The bill will be introduced into the LegCo for the first reading Wednesday.

"I hope that the LegCo members stand for the co-location arrangement and let the bill passed," Ma said, "We have no 'Plan B' for the co-location arrangement as there is no customs facilities in Futian and Shenzhen North."

Ma emphasized the convenience of the co-location arrangement, saying that it will save the passengers a lot of time. Without it, the attraction of the XRL will largely be reduced.

As estimated by the SAR government, about 100,000 people will travel on the XRL Hong Kong section every day when launched, Ma said, "I'm sure that it will be very popular and the number may go beyond that."

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201801/30/WS5a707b4aa3106e7dcc137ad1.html


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## hkskyline

*In unprecedented move, May 7 deadline set for Legco bills committee to scrutinise controversial joint checkpoint plan*
Timetable laid out by panel chairwoman Regina Ip after she received letter from transport minister Frank Chan
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
April 13, 2018

In an unprecedented move, the chairwoman of the bills committee at Hong Kong’s legislature has set a deadline for lawmakers to scrutinise a controversial joint checkpoint plan for a cross-border rail link, aiming to close the discussion by May 7.

The Friday announcement by Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee came after she was reminded by the government – through a letter sent to her the night before – that the panel should complete its task by mid-May to ensure that train services could be commissioned in September as scheduled.

“The government is worried about the progress of the scrutiny,” the letter penned by transport minister Frank Chan Fan read, citing Legislative Council house rules that state “the scrutiny of a bill should be conducted quickly and, whenever possible, be completed within three months of its commencement”.

“The government absolutely respects Legco and hopes the lawmakers would scrutinise the bill with practical and rational attitudes according to the overall interests of Hong Kong,” Chan wrote.

Speaking in Legco on Friday, Chan denied having any intention to exert pressure on lawmakers, saying the legislation was on a very tight schedule as more time had to be reserved for discussion by the full council.

“We do have a duty of care to public interest. Also, we need to ensure by all possible and reasonable measures to enable the express rail to start operating by [the end of] September – so that’s the target and the expectation of the community,” Chan said.

On the controversy surrounding the constitutionality of the plan, Chan asserted: “From day one to now, there have been two schools of thought on the legal dispute – no matter how we discuss it, we will just never reach a consensus.”

The joint checkpoint arrangement would see national laws enacted in part of the West Kowloon terminus in Hong Kong, which is viewed by opposition pan-democrat lawmakers and a section of the city’s legal professionals as contravening the Basic Law, the city’s mini-constitution.

The bills committee, which began work on February 12 and comprises 64 lawmakers, had its 12th meeting on Friday morning. Ip announced that six more meetings lasting a total of 12 hours were scheduled before the May 7 deadline, and extra meetings could be arranged if needed.

Her unprecedented move sparked an outcry from the pro-democracy camp, while the pro-establishment bloc supported it as a necessary one.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...-deadline-set-legco-bill-committee-scrutinise


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## hkskyline

*Amending Hong Kong’s mini-constitution for rail checkpoint ‘would open floodgates’*
Beijing officials tell local lawyers that applying mainland Chinese laws on Hong Kong soil at rail station for high-speed link will ‘bring least uncertainty’ to city
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
April 11, 2018

Beijing officials have fended off calls from lawyers to amend Hong Kong’s mini-constitution to resolve a row about the legality of a joint rail checkpoint, saying doing so would open the floodgates to further revisions.

Meeting a delegation from Hong Kong’s Law Society on Monday, Shen Chunyao said applying mainland Chinese laws on local soil at the West Kowloon terminus for a cross-border rail link would “bring the least uncertainty”, according to a source present.

Shen is the newly appointed head of a committee overseeing the Basic Law, Hong Kong’s de facto constitution.

His deputy, Zhang Rongshun, said the current joint checkpoint proposal was “the best way to preserve Hong Kong’s autonomy”. 

However, some of the lawyers told Zhang that the plan’s approval by the National People’s Congress (NPC) Standing Committee, China’s top legislative body, was against the rule of law and arbitrary. 

Law Society President Thomas So Shiu-tsung said Zhang responded by saying that the Basic Law was a constitutional document and amendments should not be made lightly. 

“If we are amending it because of the ‘co-location’ checkpoint plan, all kinds of people will have various reasons to amend it,” So quoted Zhang as saying. “Any amendment would be opening the floodgates for future changes. And that would affect the stability of it.”

Zhang said Beijing had considered the idea and rejected it.

In effect for over 20 years, the Basic Law has never been amended. Doing so requires a two-thirds majority in favour among Hong Kong delegates to the NPC and local lawmakers, as well as consent from the city’s leader, before a final vote by the NPC.

The Standing Committee passed a resolution in late December to allow mainland police and customs officers to handle immigration procedures at the rail terminal, pending approval by Hong Kong’s legislature. But the city’s legal profession has strong reservations about the constitutionality of the idea, which is seen as against Article 18 of the Basic Law. 

So said he understood Zhang’s concerns but also called on Beijing to consider the issue more from the perspective of the common law system practised in Hong Kong.


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## foxmulder

Nooooo!!. :cheers:


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## hkskyline

*Trip on cosy high-speed train will not sway us over contentious joint checkpoint plan, say Hong Kong opposition lawmakers*
Delegation of legislators including nine pan-democrats end trip to mainland China with visit to railway station and ride on express train to Shenzhen
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
April 22, 2018

Hong Kong’s pro-democracy legislators say they will not be swayed in their opposition to a controversial joint checkpoint plan for a cross-border rail link despite their unprecedented journey on the line’s mainland China section on Sunday evening.

The opposition pan-democrats also said the railway issue concerned the constitutionality of proposed legislation, and the dignity of the city’s mini-constitution, the Basic Law, not the personal feelings and comfort of individuals and politicians.

“We have no problem with its technology or cosiness, but [the joint checkpoint] is an issue about how you look at the legal consequences for Hong Kong … It means applying mainland law in the city,” Democratic Party chairman Wu Chi-wai said.

They were speaking before a delegation of Hong Kong legislators concluded a three-day trip of Guangdong province with a tour of Guangzhou South railway station and a 40-minute journey from there to Futian, Shenzhen in the evening. 

The delegation, comprising 23 pro-establishment and nine pan-democrat lawmakers, also visited a tech company which develops drones big enough for up to two people, and met mainland officials including Guangdong deputy governor Ouyang Weimin and Guangzhou deputy mayor Chen Zhiying.

More : http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...peed-trains-will-not-sway-us-over-contentious


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## hkskyline

*High-speed rail line from Hong Kong to mainland China hits new snag: not all routes will have direct tickets for sale in city*
Company running local section of the line admits people heading to smaller towns and cities will have to stop and buy onward tickets once in mainland China, rather than buying them in the city
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
May 6, 2018

The much-trumpeted convenience of the controversial high-speed rail line from Hong Kong to mainland China was once again thrown into doubt on Sunday, after it was revealed many travellers from the city would not be able to buy tickets to their final destination when the link opens.

Revealing the snag, Frederick Ma Si-hang, chairman of the MTR Corporation, which runs the local section of the line, said it was down to the difference in ticketing systems north and south of the border.

Under the current plan, trains would run between the city and four stations in Shenzhen, Humen and Guangzhou, all in neighbouring Guangdong province. There would also be long-haul trains directly to 14 major cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and Kunming, all of which will have tickets available in Hong Kong.

But for destinations that require a change at Guangzhou South station, at the other end of the 142km line, passengers would need to buy tickets upon reaching the mainland.

“Since we do not cover all the rail lines, those tickets may not be available for purchase in Hong Kong,” Ma told a radio show.

He said he expected some people to criticise the arrangement as “inconvenient” and hoped the public would be “mentally prepared”.

But he added: “It does not mean the ticketing system can’t be amended in future.”


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## cheehg

They can buy the ticket online. The only trouble is you have to print the ticket from the machine in Guangzhou. That means you cannot use the convenient transfer method.


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## hkskyline

cheehg said:


> They can buy the ticket online. The only trouble is you have to print the ticket from the machine in Guangzhou. That means you cannot use the convenient transfer method.


Don't think HKID can be used to make an online ticket purchase.


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## cheehg

hkskyline said:


> Don't think HKID can be used to make an online ticket purchase.


passports and other IDs can be used to buy online ticket but you need to validate your ID in one of the stations in mainland to active the online account. 

Mainland issued ID for HK and TW residents are ok to buy ticket directly in the Machines at some stations.


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## Silly_Walks

^^

But for me with a European passport, I would not be able to buy tickets online. A lot of the convenience of this rail line is lost for me. I am probably not their target audience, but it still sucks.


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## hkskyline

cheehg said:


> passports and other IDs can be used to buy online ticket but you need to validate your ID in one of the stations in mainland to active the online account.
> 
> Mainland issued ID for HK and TW residents are ok to buy ticket directly in the Machines at some stations.


So there is no added convenience. No matter what, you still have to line up at a manual counter to get a ticket. How ironic for a technological innovation.


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## cheehg

hkskyline said:


> So there is no added convenience. No matter what, you still have to line up at a manual counter to get a ticket. How ironic for a technological innovation.


I agree. somehow CR wants to use the paper ticket with bar code. It will be much easier if they can do as European railways where an email confirmation or printed paper is ok. 

but I heard MRT is working with CR to get ticket booths in HK. so they can buy tickets but I guess you need to pay for the additional handling fee. the price difference will be huge between direct trains and GZ or SZ transfer trains. they have to make it up at least.


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## hkskyline

*China Travel Service ‘preferred’ provider for tickets from Hong Kong on high-speed rail*
Source close to MTR Corporation says talks between relevant bodies are ongoing, but state-owned travel agency is preferred service provider
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
May 9, 2018 

State-owned China Travel Service (CTS) has emerged as the preferred choice for selling express rail tickets at Hong Kong’s West Kowloon terminus for destinations beyond the city’s network.

A source close to the MTR Corporation, which will operate the Hong Kong section of the high-speed line, said negotiations between relevant bodies in Hong Kong and mainland China were ongoing, but the travel agency was the preferred service provider.

The MTR cannot sell tickets to all destinations on the high-speed network because of accessibility issues with the mainland system, another insider said earlier.

Ticketing and luggage restrictions are among the immediate issues passengers will face upon the section’s debut, expected in September.

The West Kowloon terminus of the express rail link. Photo: Sam Tsang
It has been confirmed that MTR Corp will sell tickets for only four short-haul and 14 long-haul destinations involving the line’s Hong Kong section, which cost HK$84.4 billion (US$10.7 billion) to build. 

For other destinations, the government said it could bring in a mainland operator, which would set up booths and machines in the ticketing hall of the terminal.

Regina Ip’s tough handling of rail debate chaos gets leader’s backing
“China Travel Service is in talks with the Hong Kong government for the ticketing office on [level] B1, and a deal is likely to be in place by the third quarter,” the first source said.

The company already provides a service for Hongkongers to book express tickets but charges a fee of HK$50 to HK$100 per ticket.


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## hkskyline

*Chaos as co-location draft bill passes*
May 8, 2018
The Standard _Excerpt_

Regina Ip suspended the meeting of Legco's Bills Committee to allow security officers to expel disruptive pan-democrats.
The Legislative Council's Bills Committee finally approved the Kowloon rail terminal co-location bill after its chairwoman expelled four pan-democrats. So the bill was returned to a council plenary meeting for a second reading on June 6.

Yesterday was the deadline committee chairwoman Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee set for the committee to approve the bill, but chaos threatened at the start in the morning as Ip shortened the time allowed for legislators' speeches to one minute each.

Many pan-democrats called points of order, but Ip ignored them.

Then Civic Party legislator Jeremy Tam Man-ho scolded Ip as a "hoodlum," and another pan-democrat, Au Nok-hin, slammed her as unfair.

Ip then ordered security guards to expel Tam and Au, but Ray Chan Chi-chuen of People Power held a chair in front of Au to stop the guards from removing him.

Ip suspended the meeting to allow the guards to remove Chan and Au, and Tam also left the meeting room.

As the meeting resumed Eddie Chu Hoi-dick of the Council Front mocked Ip for being despotic, and Ip ordered guards into action again to remove him.

Legislature president Andrew Leung Kwan-yuen called in media during the lunch break and criticized Chan and Au for threatening the guards' safety and said the council commission could move against the legislators.

"I have to remind legislators that anyone hindering Legco staff from fulfilling their duties is breaching the law," Leung said, adding: "A guard had his finger bent while another was hit by an elbow."

But Au, alleged to have strained a guard's finger, claimed he was only trying to ask a guard take his hands off Ray Chan. "Leung exaggerated this trivial issue," he said.

When the meeting resumed in the afternoon Ip made another controversial move to skip the examination of schedules in the bill, including the co-location cooperation agreement and the West Kowloon terminal's mainland port area design. That is the area where mainland officers will be stationed.

Pan-democrats argued that schedules must be examined one by one.

As disputes continued, Ip suspended the meeting and went to another room to meet with committee vice chairman Horace Cheung Kwok-kwan, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan and several pro-establishment legislators.

After 15 minutes the meeting resumed, and a legal adviser explained that Ip's decision was justified because the schedules had been handled when discussing the bill's clauses.

The committee then went on the discuss 30 amendments submitted by eight pan-democrats, and as Ip put the amendments to the vote she bundled all four amendments Ray Chan had submitted into one, spurring further criticism. Then Ip again called for votes on the amendments.

Chu tried to rush up to Ip to stop the voting, but he was blocked by guards. Then the guards formed a chain to keep the pan-democrats in check.

Pan-democrats stood by their seats to shout "Co-location is unconstitutional!" Ip ignored them and continued the voting, spending less than 20 seconds per amendment to veto them.


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## ddes

Hong Kongers DO know what it means for West Kowloon Railway Station located in "downtown Hong Kong", and also being the terminus station of a line that starts from a capital city like, in this case, Beijing, right? Especially when most of the main arterial lines have stations outsdie the city limits.

The sooner they permit this to happen, the sooner the trends and patterns will reverse, and they could gradually and finally get what they desire.


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## hkskyline

*MTR chief Frederick Ma pledges to keep Hong Kong express rail service charges inexpensive, but offers no guarantees*
Chairman of city’s rail operator is negotiating with mainland counterpart to reduce service fee to certain destinations but says ‘we may not be able to resolve it’
May 16, 2018 
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_

Hong Kong rail chief Frederick Ma Si-hang on Wednesday vowed to keep costs down for high-speed rail passengers heading for smaller mainland Chinese cities, but said he could not guarantee his efforts would bear fruit.

The MTR Corporation chairman said after the company’s annual general meeting that he would try his best to negotiate with the mainland rail operator to reduce the service fee that passengers would need to pay if buying tickets in the city.

“We will try our very best in this regard. But I hope people will understand that, due to some systemic problems, sometimes no matter how hard we try we may not be able to resolve it,” he admitted. 

Ma caused an upset on May 6 when he said passengers heading for destinations requiring a change at Guangzhou South station would have to get off there to buy a ticket for their onward journey.

MTR Corp, the operator of the Hong Kong section of the cross-border rail, would only sell tickets for four short-haul and 14 long-haul destinations on its network, such as Guangzhou, Shanghai and Beijing.

But the Transport and Housing Bureau later said a mainland ticket operator could set up at the line’s West Kowloon terminal. Ticketing booths and machines could be set up, but the operator would charge an extra service fee, it said.

Subsequently, MTR Corp’s chief of operations, Francis Li Shing-kee, said it was trying to see if there were ways to reduce the surcharge.

The surcharge issue, together with MTR Corp’s admission on Monday that Hong Kong-Guangzhou journeys on the HK$84.4 billion cross-border rail link could take longer than the promised 48 minutes if they stop at more stations along the route, caused concerns that people would be less keen on using the line.

The much-heralded service is set to open to the public in the third quarter of the year.

Tickets for the journey are expected to cost about HK$260 (US$33), higher than the HK$210 charged for the current two-hour service.

On Tuesday, Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor said she hoped the surcharge for trips outside the city’s high-speed rail network would be reduced and the government would weigh in on the matter if necessary.

Ma responded by saying: “The chief executive has expressed her views about the surcharge … We will try our best to provide greater convenience for passengers. I don’t think the issue will affect the efficiency of the high-speed rail service.”


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## hkskyline

May 15, 2018
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_
*XRL to impose surcharge for destinations beyond Guangzhou*

Passengers who want to take the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL), which is set to begin operations in the third quarter, will have to pay an extra cost if they buy their tickets at the West Kowloon terminus for a destination other than Guangzhou, where the service ends.

Concerns were raised after MTR Corporation chairman Frederick Ma Si-hang said on May 6 that XRL passengers who depart from Hong Kong must get off at the Guangzhou South Station and buy onward tickets if they actually want to go farther to other mainland cities.

Due to technical issues, MTR will only sell tickets for four short-haul and 14 long-haul XRL destinations with West Kowloon as the starting or last station.

So if a passenger wants to go to a destination that is not starting or ending at West Kowloon, they have to buy the ticket from mainland operators at the West Kowloon terminus.

The Transport and Housing Bureau said passengers going to other mainland cities can buy at the terminus all the tickets they need to complete their trips, only that they have to pay a surcharge for the service. A mainland operator will be selling tickets for other mainland routes at the terminus.

Francis Li Shing-kee, MTR’s operations chief, also said that although the company is not entitled to sell two-way tickets in which West Kowloon is not the starting or last station, five of the 28 counters set up at the terminus are reserved for the mainland operator, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports. 

The surcharge has yet to be finalized as negotiations are still underway, Li told HKEJ, but it will take reference from the HK$40 to HK$90 currently charged by local travel agencies such as state-owned China Travel Service.

The MTR will do its best to make the surcharge as low as possible, he added.

Passengers can choose to buy their tickets at mainland stations or log in to mainland website www.12306.cn, which is selling mainland train tickets, if they want to avoid the surcharge, Li said. 

Meanwhile, MTR announced that a real-name system will be adopted for XRL ticketing as seen in the mainland.

This means that Hongkongers must use identity documents such as the Home Visit Permit for identity confirmation before getting their tickets at the counters or ticket vending machines, while foreigners can only buy tickets at the counters by presenting their passports.

There will be a 30-day pre-sale period for XRL tickets, although that may be shorter in the early days after XRL services begin, MTR said.

Passengers can pay for tickets in cash or by Octopus card and credit card, but Alipay and WeChat Pay, two popular mainland mobile payment tools, will not be accepted.


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## hkskyline

*‘One railway, two ticketing systems’ not the way for Hong Kong to go*
The troubled multibillion-dollar high-speed rail link with mainland China was sold to taxpayers on the grounds of convenience, now that appears far from it 
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
May 17, 2018

High-speed rail travel is all about convenience. This is also what officials promised when a multibillion-dollar link with the mainland was sold to Hong Kong taxpayers 10 years ago.

By connecting with the 16,000km national high-speed rail network, direct train services will be provided to cities beyond Guangzhou. For instance, passengers can reach Changsha in four hours; Wuhan, Xiamen and Fuzhou in five hours; and Shanghai and Beijing in eight and 10 hours. 

But the convenience is seemingly only confined to journeys departing Hong Kong.

As a result of “differences in ticketing systems”, the Mass Transit Railway Corporation, which runs the local railway section, said it would only sell tickets for four short-haul and 14 long-haul trips originating from the city. 

The MTR chief first said tickets for destinations involving a change on the mainland would need to be purchased upon reaching the mainland. It was later announced that authorised agents might sell those tickets – with a service charge – at some counters in the West Kowloon terminus. 

Passengers may be excused for feeling dismayed by the “one railway, two ticketing systems”. Understandably, ticket sales involve cross-border business interests.

Earlier, an MTR source sought to play down the problem as one that involved “teething technical issues”. Given the rail project was launched as early as 2009, any technical issues should have been long resolved. 

This is not the first time the convenience of the much touted railway has been thrown into doubt. Earlier there was uproar when lawmakers found out the Guangzhou terminus was not as well connected as once thought.

Adding to the dismay was the news that cross-border services would not be as cheap and frequent as they were first said to be. Officials have been harping on about the importance of making cross-border rail services as convenient as possible for passengers.

This includes allowing mainland authorities to exercise full law-enforcement powers under the controversial joint checkpoint arrangement being scrutinised by the Legislative Council.

But, ironically, passengers may not even be able to obtain tickets for most mainland destinations in one purchase. We hope this is not the result of either oversight or bureaucracy. 

Having used HK$84.4 billion in public funds and taken 10 years to complete, the world’s most expensive high-speed rail link risks becoming a white elephant if it cannot provide maximum convenience.


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## DingeZ

Can’t you just buy those tickets online?

Besides, calling this a “white elephant” for not providing direct purchases for transfer connections is a bit of a stretch, considering there are already 14 direct destinations.


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## hkskyline

DingeZ said:


> Can’t you just buy those tickets online?
> 
> Besides, calling this a “white elephant” for not providing direct purchases for transfer connections is a bit of a stretch, considering there are already 14 direct destinations.


The whole project has seen a significant cost overrun but was sold to the public as an efficient and easy way to access China, arguing Hong Kong cannot be left out of the mainland's HSR network. But bit by bit, these conveniences have proven to be empty promises. Most trains will end in Guangzhou, so much of China is out of reach (have to change trains in Guangzhou, so it's not that much different from the current thru-train), the station in Guangzhou is far from the city (not much time savings vs. the current thru-train), and now all these ticketing issues.

Was it worth paying HK$84.4 billion (well over USD $11 billion) to build this white elephant to Guangzhou?

I recall Hong Kong ID card holders cannot buy mainland HSR train tickets online due to the ID requirement.


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> The whole project has seen a significant cost overrun but was sold to the public as an efficient and easy way to access China, arguing Hong Kong cannot be left out of the mainland's HSR network. But bit by bit, these conveniences have proven to be empty promises. Most trains will end in Guangzhou, so much of China is out of reach (have to change trains in Guangzhou, so it's not that much different from the current thru-train), the station in Guangzhou is far from the city (not much time savings vs. the current thru-train), and now all these ticketing issues.
> 
> Was it worth paying HK$84.4 billion (well over USD $11 billion) to build this white elephant to Guangzhou?
> 
> I recall Hong Kong ID card holders cannot buy mainland HSR train tickets online due to the ID requirement.


Thus it is like almost all cross border railways.

So in effect it is just as in Europe with the myriad of national rail websites and booking systems that are not always compatible and straightforward. I have been changing websites to book tickets on the Czech website to have cheaper travel across Germany, but not available through the unified Trainline app, where I booked my Eurostar & Thalys tickets. Even that is a recent addition, after decades as separate booking agencies.

The reality of the extra booking fee will reflect the costs of buying a ticket online on the mainland and collecting it at a station from another bureau, all of 5RMB (less than USD$1) cost. It is hardly a major impediment. It will simply be like the different booking offices at the HK ferry ports, pending on your destination. You go to one office in West Kowloon to collect your mainland ticket rather than the MTR ticket window. 

As for transferring at Guangzhou South, the new line is much more convenient than the Through Train, unless you are transferring to a conventional rail train. The transfer time from Guangzhou or Guangzhou East to the highspeed station at Guangzhou South will take longer than the new trains from Hong Kong to Guangzhou South. Effectively there is a benefit in having this new line connect with the rest of the Chinese highspeed network.

Over the next few years, more lines may be added to direct services to Hong Kong and available for sale through MTR. Just like a brand new airport never opens with every single possible route. 

This does not justify the budget blowouts or the mismanagement that has seen the large delays in it's construction. However the principle behind the project can be justified and it will prove to be far from the disaster you have been predicting.


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## hkskyline

West Kowloon Railway Station, Hong Kong, China by Adrian Dutch, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

_D750060.jpg by David McIntyre, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

*Express rail in final trial runs for September start*
July 18, 2018
The Standard _Excerpt_

The soon-to-start cross-border express rail service has been in a third phase of trials, with trains traveling from Hong Kong to stations in Guangdong.

Trains have been rolling in preparation for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link service, which is set to commence in September.

This comes with the MTR Corp Ltd announcing trial runs that began on April 1 are now 70 percent complete.

The first phase was restricted to Hong Kong while the second had trains crossing the border. The third phrase has seen trains pass through Futian Station in Shenzhen and Guangzhou South Station.

Adi Lau Tin-shing, the rail link's operations director, said different systems - that includes trains, tracks, signals and control centers - must be tested. And staff need to familiarize themselves with various operations.

"Our staff have been conducting tests on various station facilities to identify any issues and make improvements," he said.

"For example, over 50,000 have been carried out at 75 entry and exit gates at Hong Kong West Kowloon Station."

Lau said the overall countdown takes in 400 drills, and 300 have already been completed.

There will also be large-scale event simulations in the near future. They include evacuations and passenger rescues.

Seven footbridges and two pedestrian subways have now been built in and around West Kowloon Station, which in itself spans 400,000 square meters.

It takes four minutes to walk to the station from Austin Station and 12 minutes from Kowloon Station.

The station is also within walking distance of a bus terminus.

Travelers can use transport such as buses and minibuses as well as coaches with pick-up and drop-off points at the new station's ground level or head to the new West Kowloon Station Bus Terminus north of the station, said chief of operations Francis Li Shing-kee.

Lau also said station manpower will increase to 700 by the time the express service is launched, with 500 of them having participated in trials. And a maintenance team has completed training in the mainland.

On a water seepage problem at the station, Lau said that is being rectified. But he admitted there is a chance there could still be leaks from the roof with heavy rain.

Despite this, Lau insisted services and passengers will not be troubled as only a small area of the station is affected.

Still, he added, teams are working all out to rectify the problem.

Regarding claims there will only be one train a day to Shanghai and one to Beijing, Lau said the MTRCL continues to work with mainland counterparts on the number of high-speed services.


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## foxmulder

One of the most beautiful stations. :cheers:


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## cheehg

The roof of the station is 9 dragons?


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## hkskyline

*Passengers on Hong Kong’s high-speed rail link will go through five-step ticket and security process before boarding*
Rail bosses stopped short of estimating how long the process would take, while announcing details of the plans on Thursday
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
July 26, 2018

Passengers who want to cross the border on Hong Kong’s high-speed rail link will have to go through five steps at the terminus before they board the train, but the MTR Corporation on Thursday stopped short of providing the time required for the process.

The rail giant unveiled the details ahead of the scheduled opening of the HK$84.4 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express rail link in September, when mainland laws will be applied in part of the West Kowloon terminus under a controversial joint checkpoint arrangement.

Departing passengers who have not bought their tickets in advance will have to buy or collect the tickets at the ticket hall on the B1 level. They will then show terminus officers their personal documents and tickets for an identity check on the same floor.

Next they go to the ticket gates to get into the security-checking zone on the same floor, where there are 15 X-ray machines and seven metal detector gates. Security officers will conduct a luggage check, which will take about 20 seconds excluding the queuing time.

Travellers will have to go down to the immigration hall on the B3 floor to have their travel documents checked by Hong Kong immigration officials and then the mainland officers stationed at the mainland port area on the same floor before boarding the train.

The corporation’s commercial director Jeny Yeung Mei-chun, however, did not disclose how much time the entire process would take.

More : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...se-police-officers-suspended-over-mishandling


----------



## Short

hkskyline said:


> *Passengers on Hong Kong’s high-speed rail link will go through five-step ticket and security process before boarding*
> Rail bosses stopped short of estimating how long the process would take, while announcing details of the plans on Thursday
> South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
> July 26, 2018
> 
> Passengers who want to cross the border on Hong Kong’s high-speed rail link will have to go through five steps at the terminus before they board the train, but the MTR Corporation on Thursday stopped short of providing the time required for the process.
> 
> The rail giant unveiled the details ahead of the scheduled opening of the HK$84.4 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express rail link in September, when mainland laws will be applied in part of the West Kowloon terminus under a controversial joint checkpoint arrangement.
> 
> Departing passengers who have not bought their tickets in advance will have to buy or collect the tickets at the ticket hall on the B1 level. They will then show terminus officers their personal documents and tickets for an identity check on the same floor.
> 
> Next they go to the ticket gates to get into the security-checking zone on the same floor, where there are 15 X-ray machines and seven metal detector gates. Security officers will conduct a luggage check, which will take about 20 seconds excluding the queuing time.
> 
> Travellers will have to go down to the immigration hall on the B3 floor to have their travel documents checked by Hong Kong immigration officials and then the mainland officers stationed at the mainland port area on the same floor before boarding the train.
> 
> The corporation’s commercial director Jeny Yeung Mei-chun, however, did not disclose how much time the entire process would take.
> 
> More : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...se-police-officers-suspended-over-mishandling


So effectively the same process as the Joint Border Control on Eurostar but over several levels. Thus processing times could be assumed to be similar.


----------



## YannSZ

Short said:


> So effectively the same process as the Joint Border Control on Eurostar but over several levels. Thus processing times could be assumed to be similar.


Indeed. Nothing to worry about


----------



## hkskyline

Short said:


> So effectively the same process as the Joint Border Control on Eurostar but over several levels. Thus processing times could be assumed to be similar.


Security checks are quite onerous in China. Some more sensitive cities have 2 levels of checks. Not sure if HK will be subject to this added scrutiny but this might be the major bottleneck. Otherwise, we can use automated kiosks to exit the border on both sides so that should be quick.


----------



## jonathanNCJ

Hongkong is an autonomous region. Different procedure will be there for people who to to travel to mainland china from hk?


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## hkskyline

jonathanNCJ said:


> Hongkong is an autonomous region. Different procedure will be there for people who to to travel to mainland china from hk?


Other than crossing immigration, the rest is harmonized with China. It is their high-speed railway being extended to Hong Kong, not the other way around.

The legal debate swirling around this arrangement is whether it is constitutionally sound to have mainland officials enforce their laws at the station and whether that violates Hong Kong's supposed autonomy.


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## cheehg

It won't be such an issue if both parties are independent countries. The reality is HK is under pressure from PRC. So Hkers are very sensitive about any unwanted persons and organizations from north.


----------



## hkskyline

*Judge to rule next week on injunction bid against checkpoint at station for Hong Kong’s new cross-border express rail link*
Sixtus Baggio Leung claims move is last chance at damage control, saying city’s reputation could be badly damaged if plan for West Kowloon terminus is ruled unconstitutional
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 10, 2018 

A High Court judge will rule on Tuesday on applications for an injunction to halt a controversial joint-checkpoint plan for the new cross-border high-speed rail link, ahead of its expected opening next month.

Sixtus Baggio Leung Chung-hang, an ousted pro-independence lawmaker, on Friday argued an interim injunction is the last chance for “damage control” in case the court later declares the plan unconstitutional after hearing his judicial review application in October.

His concern was picked up by Mr Justice Anderson Chow Ka-ming, who noted that some travellers may be subject to “losses or penal consequences” if he dismisses the present application for the rail to commence service.

“Could it not be argued that these losses are irreversible?” he asked the government.

Benjamin Yu SC replied there would be no risk to those who do not buy a ticket, challenging a ban that could see the government, rail operator the MTR Corporation, and franchised bus companies forego HK$372.6 million (US$47.8 million) in monthly revenue.

The interim ban application targets the so-called co-location plan at the new Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express rail terminus in the city’s West Kowloon area, not the HK$84.4 billion (US$10.7 billion) link.

Under the plan, the Hong Kong government will lease a section of the terminus to mainland Chinese immigration, customs and quarantine authorities – as opposed to the traditional arrangement where people crossing the border would use checkpoints on mainland soil.

Mainland laws will also be applied in that part of the West Kowloon terminus.

Leung, who appeared without a lawyer because he was denied legal aid, said the plan contravened 10 articles of the Basic Law, the city’s mini-constitution, and affected the constitutional rights of all Hongkongers, regardless of whether they will take the train.

He argued that if the court granted an injunction in a decision that turned out to be wrong in the case his subsequent judicial review application is thrown out, losses would be confined to a fixed period.

But, if the court decides not to grant the injunction and later declares the plan unconstitutional, Leung said Hong Kong’s overall image and reputation as a transport hub would be tarnished as tourists holding prepaid tickets would find themselves with no train to board.


----------



## hkskyline

*Tickets to mainland China get cheaper as service charge reduced for connections beyond the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link*
Negotiations completed on fees for travel to mainland cities beyond 18 high-speed rail link destinations, ahead of scheduled opening next month
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 14, 2018

Service fees will be reduced by more than 10 per cent for Hong Kong passengers buying tickets to mainland Chinese destinations beyond the direct stops the MTR Corporation’s new high-speed rail line will connect to.

An agreement was reached after months of negotiations between the rail giant and its mainland counterpart, the China Railway Corporation, according to a source.

No details were available on what the original service fee and the exact percentage reduction would be, but when asked how substantial the cut was, the source said: “It won’t be just a 10 per cent cut.”

The source also said the tentative starting date for the HK$84.4 billion (US$10.7 billion) Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link had been set for September 23, with the opening ceremony to take place a day earlier.

The MTR Corp said the cross-border line would be ready for service next month, despite the ongoing scandals plaguing another major project, the city’s most expensive rail link connecting Sha Tin to Central.

In May, MTR Corp chairman Frederick Ma Si-hang caused a stir when he said passengers travelling to destinations requiring a change at Guangzhou South station would have to get off there to buy an onward ticket, rather than purchasing all their tickets at Hong Kong’s West Kowloon station.

The Transport and Housing Bureau later clarified a mainland Chinese operator would be brought to West Kowloon to sell tickets for those destinations but would charge travellers an extra service fee.

This prompted Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor to say she hoped the surcharge would be reduced and the government would weigh in on the matter if necessary.


----------



## hkskyline

*Couplers used at terminal of Hong Kong’s high-speed rail to mainland China are substandard, government admits*
Batches deemed unusable were replaced or discarded, but work on the site had to be stopped for four months in 2013
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 17, 2018

Substandard metal couplers were used in the construction of the cross-border express rail line’s Hong Kong terminal, the government confirmed on Friday.

The Buildings Department said that structural safety at the West Kowloon terminal was not affected, and that there was “no serious violation” of the law, although building was suspended for four months in 2013 as a result. Batches of couplers deemed unusable were replaced or discarded.

The disclosure came in response to media reports on Friday questioning whether the contractor had replaced all the substandard couplers, which were used on the ground floor and B3 level of the terminus of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link in 2013.

The HK$84.4 billion express rail line is set to open next month.

The HK$8.9 billion contract to build the north part of the station was awarded to a joint venture of Leighton and Gammon in 2011. According to the MTR Corporation, which oversees the project, manufacturer Dextra Pacific supplied the metal couplers used to connect steel bars, which reinforce concrete structures.

On Friday evening, the Buildings Department said it received a report in 2013 flagging test results of couplers used at the station.

It then ordered the rail firm’s structural engineer to conduct “in-depth” tests to verify past results. In the first round of testing, on the couplers’ malleability and ability to withstand tension, five samples failed a pulling test, it said.

More : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...lers-used-terminal-hong-kongs-high-speed-rail


----------



## hkskyline

*MTR Corporation and Hong Kong government locked in talks over subsidies for high-speed rail link between city and mainland China*
Lawmaker Michael Tien says firm’s proposal would leave government covering all operational costs, while officials want to limit exposure as much as possible
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 17, 2018

Hong Kong’s rail operator has recently been locked in negotiations with the government over subsidies for the cross-border high-speed rail link, lawmaker Michael Tien Puk-sun revealed on Friday.

The disclosure came a day after Frank Chan Fan, the secretary for transport and housing, said on a visit to Beijing that the government and the MTR Corporation had reached “the final stage” of negotiating an operational agreement for the express rail, but refused to give details.

Set to open in late September, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will provider passengers with a direct route from the West Kowloon terminus to Shenzhen, Humen and Guangzhou – three cities in neighbouring Guangdong province – and to 14 majors cities such as Beijing, Shanghai and Kunming.

Plagued by years of delays and budget overruns, the potential profitability of the line has been mired in controversy and mystery. In February, Chan said the HK$84.4 billion rail link might become profitable in eight years, after making an eyebrow-raising prediction of 50 years just five days previously.

On Friday morning, Tien, chairman of the Legislative Council’s subcommittee on matters related to railways, said on a radio programme that the MTR Corp had agreed to be subsidised by the government only when the annual income of the cross-border line goes below a certain level.

Meanwhile, the MTR Corp could retain 20 per cent of any profit if revenues exceed a certain point.

The operational cost of the express railway is estimated to be HK$1 billion per year.

“The sticking point now is how exactly the limits should be set,” Tien said.


----------



## hkskyline

Aug 17, 2018 
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_
*Govt: XRL ready for opening despite alleged water leakages*

The Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) is safe and in sound condition, the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department (EMSD) said.

This means that the rail link is likely to start service in September as scheduled, despite allegations of serious water leakages in multiple locations along the route, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports.

The EMSD said relevant government bodies have conducted on-site inspections and approval of all safety-related systems for the testing and commissioning stage of the Hong Kong section of the rail link.

These include fire service systems, emergency evacuation facilities, high-speed trains, and signaling and communication systems.

It is said that the XRL trains, named “Vibrant Express”, will start operating from Sept. 23, although the date has yet to be confirmed by MTR Corporation, which is responsible for the cross-border high-speed rail project.

The EMSD said it has scrutinized emergency procedures prepared by MTR together with the Security Bureau, and observed drills conducted by the rail operator to review the effectiveness of all contingency plans.

It said all relevant government departments have also confirmed the operating systems, train compartments and station facilities can function normally, while the authorities will continue to supervise the rail operator in final preparatory works prior to the rail link’s commissioning.

In Beijing, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan told media after meeting with officials of China Railway Corporation (CRC) that the government has reached a consensus with CRC over related arrangements, including frequency, destinations, financing and fares. The details will be announced later this month.

Asked about the reported water leakages, Chan said the Highways Department has inspected the locations where the problem emerged and confirmed there will be no impact to the safety of the rail link after improvements have been made.


----------



## hkskyline

*Mainland Chinese officials have arrived to set up in port area of West Kowloon terminus of Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link*
Security minister John Lee said no personnel would be exercising any duties or enforcing mainland Chinese law yet
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 22, 2018

Hong Kong’s security minister has confirmed that mainland Chinese checkpoint officers and technicians have arrived in the city to prepare for the opening of a cross-border high-speed rail link.

But John Lee Ka-chiu on Wednesday stressed that none of the personnel would exercise any duties or enforce mainland Chinese law as the port area in the West Kowloon terminus would not be open until late September.

The 26km Hong Kong section of the HK$84.4 billion (US$10.7 billion) Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link has been mired in controversy over the joint checkpoint, under which mainland Chinese officials will exercise almost full jurisdiction in their designated zone.

“For testing and system installation [in the terminus], they need to submit an application to the Hong Kong authorities and will be allowed to work only after receiving our approval,” Lee said.

The Security Bureau said that as of early June, the Immigration Department had approved more than 500 working visas to allow mainland Chinese personnel to conduct preparation work in the terminus. About 80 per cent were engineers, while the remainder were from mainland agencies that would be stationed in the port area.

“[Officers from] the immigration inspection authority, customs authority, inspection and quarantine authority, integrated port administration authority and railway police authority need to come to Hong Kong before the mainland port area is open,” the bureau said.

“Before the opening, they will need to obtain visas to work in Hong Kong.”

Transport minister Frank Chan Fan had said in May that mainland personnel would arrive at the terminus before the port area opened for business.

“They need time in Hong Kong to familiarise themselves and rehearse,” Chan said, adding the government would work to shorten the preparatory stage.

The immigration counters on the terminus’ departures level, the platforms and compartments on moving trains in Hong Kong all fall under mainland Chinese jurisdiction, according to a co-location bill that was passed in the Legislative Council and then gazetted in June.


----------



## General Huo




----------



## cheehg

the seats are better designed.


----------



## 1772

So when the station opens, will one be able to go long distance HSR? Say Hong Kong to Shanghai?


----------



## hkskyline

1772 said:


> So when the station opens, will one be able to go long distance HSR? Say Hong Kong to Shanghai?


Schedule released so far shows only 1 train to Beijing and Shanghai each a day.


----------



## cheehg

there are many others: Fuzhou, Xiameng, Kunming and the stations on those lines. 
But I think because of the price difference, many passengers will choose to transfer at Shenzhen and Guangzhou.


----------



## hkskyline

cheehg said:


> there are many others: Fuzhou, Xiameng, Kunming and the stations on those lines.
> But I think because of the price difference, many passengers will choose to transfer at Shenzhen and Guangzhou.


It has nothing to do with fare cost. The whole schedule was designed to have Guangzhou and Shenzhen being the majority of the final destinations. That's why skeptics have criticized this is a super-expensive short-haul train line that doesn't offer much time savings to the current thru-train.


----------



## hkskyline

*High-speed rail link between Hong Kong and mainland China will struggle to make money say critics, as they challenge claims it will be profitable from day one*
Questions raised over assurances that HK$84.4 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link will attract customers and prove to be lucrative investment for taxpayers
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 24, 2018

Critics have questioned assurances given by transport bosses that Hong Kong’s high-speed rail link to mainland China will be profitable from the day it starts operating.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link was built at a cost of HK$84.4 billion (US$10.8 billion) of taxpayers’ money. Operated by the MTR Corporation, it is expected to open on September 23 and will connect the city directly to 44 mainland destinations.

On Friday, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan was asked if the latest passenger figures of 80,100 a day – lower than a previous projection when more funding was sought for the long-delayed and over-budget service – would make Hongkongers feel they were being “cheated”.

Chan said the government’s figures had been updated to account for the frequency of trains.

“We are trying to review as much as possible to let the public and everybody in Hong Kong know the exact situation,” he said.

But Quentin Cheng Hin-kei, spokesman for concern group Public Transport Research Team, said even the latest passenger figures seemed inflated.

For one, those going on short-haul trips may not switch from their current options. For example, the 310,000 passengers going from Hong Kong to Lok Ma Chau to cross the border into Shenzhen can take the MTR Corp’s East Rail from Hung Hom, which costs HK$38 per one-way trip.

In contrast, the high-speed rail to Futian and Shenzhen North, both stations in the city of Shenzhen, would cost HK$78 and HK$86 respectively.

As for the estimated 10,000 daily travellers to Guangzhou, those taking the current slow through train would take less than two hours to a centrally-located station while the express rail link would go to Guangzhou South, further away from the city centre and taking between 48 and 71 minutes.

“We estimate that the new rail can draw new passengers by 10 to 20 per cent with a portion of passengers switching from the existing rail network to it,” Cheng said. “Overall, we reckon that the high-speed rail can only draw slightly more than 60,000 passengers a day, 20 per cent lower than the government’s forecast.”

On Thursday, Chan said he was “pretty confident” the high-speed rail would not incur losses in future, based on the government’s latest projections of daily passenger flows and “competitive” ticket pricing.

The government said it expected the express rail to earn HK$671 million in the fourth quarter of this year, which would translate into a profit of HK$199 million as operating costs are estimated to be HK$472 million.


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## doc7austin

Easy solution:
They'll just cancel the MTR Through Train.


----------



## hkskyline

doc7austin said:


> Easy solution:
> They'll just cancel the MTR Through Train.


I have read reports that won't be cancelled. There is demand for a link to the main CBD in Guangzhou East, which the new rail link won't go anywhere near.


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## cheehg

In this case it is a very expensive metro. Shenzhen to Guangzhou section has capacity issues. Soon it will need a second hsr line from Shenzhen north connect dongguang and Guangzhou east.


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## hkskyline

*Fares for high-speed rail link to Guangzhou can be discounted to woo passengers, Hong Kong transport chief Frank Chan says*
Minister also issues warning to MTR Corp, recently plagued by a series of construction and safety scandals, to ‘openly report’ anything unusual in a timely manner
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 25, 2018

Fares for Hong Kong’s high-speed trains to mainland China can be discounted to woo more passengers, the city’s transport minister promised on Saturday, as he assuaged concerns over the profitability of the rail link that is set to begin service on September 23.

The MTR Corporation could offer promotional prices during non-peak hours or discounts through tour packages if there was demand or if seat occupancy was low, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan said on a radio programme.

“We calculated the MTR Corp’s performance based on the rail service’s seat occupancy rate,” Chan said.

But he added that the city’s rail giant – which is splitting fares for trips with mainland operator China Railway Corporation – would need to “liaise very closely with our counterparts on the mainland to suitably adjust the fare in a timely manner”.

For six short-distance stops to Shenzhen and Guangzhou, the MTR Corp will take 45 to 95 per cent of the fares, which are between HK$78 and HK$247.

The long-delayed and over-budget Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link, built at a cost of HK$84.4 billion (US$10.7 billion), will offer direct trips to 44 mainland destinations and is expected to carry 80,100 passengers a day.

Critics have questioned if the number is inflated and whether the MTR Corp, which has the right to operate the Hong Kong portion of the rail link for 10 years, will earn an expected profit of HK$199 million in the fourth quarter of this year.

About 90 per cent of the MTR Corp’s HK$671 million revenue this year is expected to come from ticket fares with the rest from advertising and rental of outlets from West Kowloon terminus.


----------



## Gusiluz

I apologize if it was already explained before. 

Have they explained how they intend to prevent commuter passengers to Guanzhou from taking long-distance seats?

Will there be shuttle services to Guanzhou?
The trains are not designed for that and they are only 9 but they could put CJ trains like the CRH3A and thus take advantage of the infrastructure during the time in which no Vibrant Express MTR380A circulates.

Thanks for all the news of this thread.


----------



## luacstjh98

Yes, CRH trains will also serve West Kowloon.

Anyway, SCMP says flying will be better than XRL in a lot of cases: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...g-hong-kong-mainland-china-faster-and-cheaper


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## hkskyline

Gusiluz said:


> I apologize if it was already explained before.
> 
> Have they explained how they intend to prevent commuter passengers to Guanzhou from taking long-distance seats?
> 
> Will there be shuttle services to Guanzhou?
> The trains are not designed for that and they are only 9 but they could put CJ trains like the CRH3A and thus take advantage of the infrastructure during the time in which no Vibrant Express MTR380A circulates.
> 
> Thanks for all the news of this thread.


The concept of a "commuter" passenger taking high-speed rail in China doesn't really exist yet. Incomes are not high enough to sustain it as rents are relatively low. Perhaps this might develop in the Shanghai and Beijing area but due to the border policy, mainlanders cannot freely work in Hong Kong unless they obtain a visa, so they won't be commuting into Hong Kong. Similarly, typical Hong Kongers (not the business entrepreneur group) won't be willing to take a substantial paycut to work in China either, so the reverse commute doesn't work either.


----------



## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> I apologize if it was already explained before.
> 
> Have they explained how they intend to prevent commuter passengers to Guanzhou from taking long-distance seats?
> 
> Will there be shuttle services to Guanzhou?
> The trains are not designed for that and they are only 9 but they could put CJ trains like the CRH3A and thus take advantage of the infrastructure during the time in which no Vibrant Express MTR380A circulates.
> 
> Thanks for all the news of this thread.


From the information I got the long distance trains are all operated by CR. Normally CR will lock the ticket sales from HK to Guangzhou and Shenzhen on those long distance routes to prevent the short distance (HK-GZ) ticketing. MRT will be operating only as far as to GZ. You are right it is a waste to use MRT380A to Shenzhen north and Futian section. As the whole section's speed limit is only 200km/h. But from Shenzhen to Guangzhou section, basically no trainset below 300 km/h speed is allowed. There are already more than 100 pairs trains on this section. HK-GZ will be about 34 pairs more. I think 9 train sets are enough for short distance Intercity. I think CR Guangzhou will also run those routing. or at least from HK-GZ. The maintenance costs will be greater if they add a few CRH3As. It is not from same manufacture.


----------



## hkskyline

*Mainland China will only be charged HK$1,000 per year for Hong Kong high-speed rail terminus*
Deal at West Kowloon rail site will see Hong Kong pay similar amount for Shenzhen Bay facility, which will be slashed from current cost of about 8.1 million yuan
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
August 31, 2018

Hong Kong will charge mainland Chinese authorities only HK$1,000 (US$127) annually for using a 1.1 million sq ft port area at the high-speed rail link terminus in West Kowloon – one of the most expensive sites in the city.

The local administration on Thursday said the move would be matched by the Shenzhen municipal government slashing the annual rent Hong Kong pays for a 4.4 million sq ft port area at the Shenzhen Bay checkpoint in Shekou to 1,000 yuan (HK$1,150) from about 8.1 million yuan, starting next year.

Hong Kong authorities also announced the controversial “co-location” joint checkpoint arrangement – which would allow mainland officials to enforce their laws in the port area leased to them at the West Kowloon terminus – would be gazetted on Friday.

This would enable mainland officials to start work at the station on September 4. The 26km Hong Kong section of the HK$84.4 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link is set to launch on September 23.

Opposition lawmaker Tanya Chan criticised the nominal rent for mainland authorities, saying it was upsetting and marked the latest threat to Hong Kong’s interests.

“First we lost control of jurisdiction on Hong Kong soil [on which the terminus sits], then the average daily passenger forecast was cut by 26 per cent, and now prime land is valued at HK$1,000,” she said. “It is not about parity. How can you compare the value of Shekou with West Kowloon?”

Chan said Hong Kong paid HK$4.2 billion in construction and development costs for the Shekou port, and about HK$1 billion in rental over the past decade.


----------



## saintm

The Hong Kong West Kowloon Station opens today. It means the official launch of the Hong Kong section of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL) is around the corner. Hong Kong's section is 26 km and integrated into the nation’s high-speed railway network.


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## hkskyline

Today is only a public open house, and not the official opening of the railway.

http://www.youth.gov.hk/m/en/event-calendar/event/2320879


----------



## hkskyline

*Hong Kong cross-border bus firm expects 30 per cent decline in business to high-speed rail link*
Coach operator pins hopes on mega bridge debuting later in year and affording new opportunities to reach western Guangdong province not served by express train network
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
September 2, 2018

A leading Hong Kong bus firm serving southern China is bracing for a 30 per cent dip in business after the high-speed rail link debuts, as most of its profit comes from short-haul trips.

However, the multibillion-dollar Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau bridge expected to open this year will give the coach operator and its competitors a lifeline by connecting the city to western Guangdong province, which is beyond the reach of the express rail project.

Eternal East Cross-Border Coach Management, the city’s leading cross-border bus company, said the HK$84.4 billion (US$10.7 billion) express rail link would pose a threat to its core services to Futian in Shenzhen and Panyu in Guangzhou.

“The high-speed rail will indeed have an adverse impact on our coach services for Futian and Guangzhou,” Eddie Choi, an assistant general manager for the operator, said. “We estimate that we may lose 30 per cent of our passengers to the express railway for these two destinations.”

At present, more than 1,000 coach trips carrying some 30,000 passengers are made daily from Hong Kong to Futian via the Huanggang border checkpoint. Eternal East provides more than 300 of these outbound trips at a rate of HK$37 (US$4.70) each.

A total of 100 outbound coaches go to Panyu every day, of which the bus firm runs 24 trips at between HK$80 and HK$100. In comparison, an express train journey costs about HK$78 to Futian and HK$247 to Guangzhou South.

The two short-haul destinations are among 44 direct-train destinations offered by the network. According to figures provided by the MTR Corporation, they will generate the main source of income for the cross-border rail link, especially Futian station, for which a journey from West Kowloon terminus in Hong Kong will only take about 14 minutes.

The train ride from West Kowloon to Guangzhou South will take between 47 minutes and 71 minutes, depending on the number of stops en route. Typically a cross-border coach takes about 40 minutes to get from Jordan in Kowloon to Futian and less than three hours to Guangzhou.

More : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...2/top-hong-kong-cross-border-bus-firm-serving


----------



## sweet-d

hkskyline said:


> I have read reports that won't be cancelled. There is demand for a link to the main CBD in Guangzhou East, which the new rail link won't go anywhere near.


Exactly Guangzhou South is about 40 minutes away from Tianhe and Haizhu. If you get in town kind of late then Guangzhou East is the station you wanna be at. I'll also add that I do look forward to taking this new train though. Hopefully it'll be open when I go back to China in a few weeks.


----------



## hkskyline

*National law to be enforced in Hong Kong’s high-speed rail terminus from midnight, as 800 mainland officers set to be stationed in port area*
Handover ceremony will take place at 11.45pm, marking the creation of a controversial mainland port area in Hong Kong ahead of the opening of the rail link on September 23
September 3, 2018

About 800 mainland Chinese personnel will be stationed daily at Hong Kong’s new cross-border high-speed rail link terminus, with a midnight ceremony on Monday marking the handover of the designated port area where they will enforce national laws, according to government sources.

The 15-minute handover ceremony was arranged after the government gazetted the controversial “co-location” joint checkpoint arrangement last Friday, authorising mainland officials to start work in the port area under their jurisdiction at the West Kowloon terminus on Tuesday.

It is understood the 800 mainland law enforcers, including about 160 police officers, will work in two shifts in the port area when the HK$84.4 billion Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link opens on September 23.

The 800-strong team also includes immigration, customs and quarantine personnel.

“We are told that 80 extra officers from the mainland public security bureau will be stationed in the nearest Shenzhen train station each shift and can arrive in Hong Kong within half an hour if necessary,” the source said.

He revealed they would be allowed to carry firearms in the mainland port area, but it was not known whether all of them would be armed while on duty.

The source said about 800 local officers were also expected to be stationed at the Hong Kong side of the terminus in two work shifts every day.

While most of the mainland officers would have to return to Shenzhen every day after the closure of the railway service at around midnight, dozens would remain and guard their port area overnight, sources said.

“It is necessary because some of [overnight staff] will help to do clearance and facilitate technicians and workers to enter the port area from the Hong Kong side to carry out repair and maintenance work after midnight,” one source said.

More : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...al-law-be-enforced-hong-kongs-high-speed-rail


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## chornedsnorkack

hkskyline said:


> The concept of a "commuter" passenger taking high-speed rail in China doesn't really exist yet. Incomes are not high enough to sustain it as rents are relatively low. Perhaps this might develop in the Shanghai and Beijing area but due to the border policy, mainlanders cannot freely work in Hong Kong unless they obtain a visa, so they won't be commuting into Hong Kong.


But the borders of Shenzhen Special Economic Zone do not have border checks.
Futian to Humen is 28 to 35 minutes by HSR, and ticket costs 45 yuan. Is that viable for a commute?


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## sweet-d

Do you really save that much money on rent though? That averages out to about 2000 per month transportation cost on a six day work week. So I suppose if you get and apartment for 4000 a month in Dongguan then its not a bad deal. This would also be a good deal for students that go to school in Hong Kong but they already do this anyway and they just take MTR. 

For most people it's just not viable to live that far away. They could just live somewhere else in Shenzhen and it just might make up the cost. The only justification would be for family like if their parents are from Dongguan and they really cant move to Shenzhen. 

I actually did work a job 2 days a week in Shenzhen earlier this year and they paid a little extra for my transportation fees. But it honestly wasn't worth the stress and the trouble. So for most people this isn't happening. Maybe when the subway lines are linked in Dongguan and Guangzhou and Shenzhen and Dongguan it'll be an option. 

I do know people that commute from Northern Dongguan to Huangpu in Guangzhou but it's basically like another area of Guangzhou so it doesn't really count.


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## hkskyline

chornedsnorkack said:


> But the borders of Shenzhen Special Economic Zone do not have border checks.
> Futian to Humen is 28 to 35 minutes by HSR, and ticket costs 45 yuan. Is that viable for a commute?


Only for the top sector elite workers, but they have little reason to move further to save on rent.

Article : https://www.scmp.com/business/china...s-shenzhen-rise-highest-earners-still-make-10

_The Human Resources and Social Security Bureau said the average income of 240,000 workers across 959 companies in the technology and manufacturing hub has reached 5,611 yuan a month this year, up from 5,097 yuan in the same survey last year.

Financial and tech firms pay the most, while catering and manufacturing are among the lowest paying industries, it said.

The figures showed that the median salaries in the top, middle and low pay sectors were 25,274 yuan, 4,415 yuan and 2,725 yuan per month in 2017, up from 24,305 yuan, 4,034 yuan and 2,467 yuan in 2016. The middle-income group saw the fastest wage growth._


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## moon993

The West Kowloon station controversy is making me think of this video. (Apologies if it was already posted)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkCeKc1GTMs


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## hkskyline

Sep 5, 2018 
*Govt blasted for hush-hush turnover of XRL mainland port area*
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_

The Hong Kong Journalists Association (HKJA) took the government to task for not telling media in advance about a ceremony marking the commissioning of the Mainland Port Area at the West Kowloon Terminus of the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL).

Instead, the government chose to merely issue a press release about the event at six minutes after midnight, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports, citing a statement from the HKJA on Tuesday.

Under the co-location arrangement for the XRL, hundreds of customs, immigration and quarantine officials from mainland China are allowed to be stationed in a designated area in the terminus, the Hong Kong end of the cross-border railway.

The XRL co-location ordinance took effect on Tuesday, meaning the Mainland Port Area was formally passed into the control of China, and the Chinese officials began on the same day to take up duties as they prepare for the Sept. 23 opening of the new rail link.

Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan and Deputy Secretary-General of the Guangdong Provincial Government Lin Ji jointly officiated the commissioning of the area, according to a statement issued on the same day, without mentioning when.

A source told the HKEJ that the ceremony took place about 15 minutes before midnight Tuesday.

About a hundred people attended the event, but there were no reporters because no media outlet in the city received an invitation or notice beforehand, Apple Daily reported, citing a source.

_Photos : http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/201809/04/P2018090300845.htm _


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## flankerjun




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## vlasvision

Will it be possible for non-Chenese to buy tickets online ?


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## Short

vlasvision said:


> Will it be possible for non-Chenese to buy tickets online ?


Yes, many of these services are pre-existing services between Shenzhen and other mainland cities, simply extended to West Kowloon Terminus. So Trip.com and other such sites will be able to sell tickets online. You would just need to collect them from a ticket window at the station (with the e-ticket number), because the automated ticket collection machines will not accept a passport as ID.


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## hkskyline

I thought all tickets require local ID, specifically the Chinese PRC ID? Even Hong Kongers cannot use the Chinese booking website to reserve in advance, and the automated machines don't accept our Hong Kong Return Home Permits either, so we have to line up at the manual counter with all the other foreigners.


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## saiho

I have to say based on the schedule Flankerjun posted the criticism of the XRL schedule is spot on. There are so much trains terminating at Shenzhen North. The current system is essentially get all the trains from China to terminate at Shenzhen North and all the trains from Hong Kong to terminate at Shenzhen North, forcing a transfer. Many of these services from across China should continue into the Hong Kong terminus. Luckily this could be fixed with a schedule change, the infrastructure is already in place, that's the important part.



hkskyline said:


> I thought all tickets require local ID, specifically the Chinese PRC ID? Even Hong Kongers cannot use the Chinese booking website to reserve in advance, and the automated machines don't accept our Hong Kong Return Home Permits either, so we have to line up at the manual counter with all the other foreigners.


I am a "foreigner", I use Ctrip to book tickets in advance and just pick them up at any railway station in China.


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## luacstjh98

To be fair, I presume with the constant issues surrounding XRL construction, CRH dared not institute any radical timetable changes to accommodate more trains going down to West Kowloon.

We'll see when they next change the timetable, though I wouldn't hold my hopes up.


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## maginn

hkskyline said:


> I thought all tickets require local ID, specifically the Chinese PRC ID? Even Hong Kongers cannot use the Chinese booking website to reserve in advance, and the automated machines don't accept our Hong Kong Return Home Permits either, so we have to line up at the manual counter with all the other foreigners.


We can, I do it all the time on 12306.com. But I think some people from outside mainland China don’t have a Chinese phone number or bank account and that’s why they are unable to use that booking system. Also the machines work with the home return permit at some specific machines in stations like Shenzhenbei and previously at Zhuhai station too.


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## doc7austin

Will the long-distance through trains Hung Hom - Beijing/Shanghai be cancelled?


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## Short

hkskyline said:


> I thought all tickets require local ID, specifically the Chinese PRC ID? Even Hong Kongers cannot use the Chinese booking website to reserve in advance, and the automated machines don't accept our Hong Kong Return Home Permits either, so we have to line up at the manual counter with all the other foreigners.


The ticket machines at West Kowloon Terminus are different to those found across mainland China. They even accept Octopus Card and PayWave payments. So there are no issues for Hong Kong residents using them.

These machines are capable of selling both cross-border shuttle and long-distance CRH tickets too. Hong Kong ID was seen as acceptable for purchases on the Open Day videos when the machines were demonstrated.


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## Equario

Short said:


> The ticket machines at West Kowloon Terminus are different to those found across mainland China. *They even accept Octopus Card and PayWave payments. So there are no issues for Hong Kong residents using them*.
> 
> These machines are capable of selling both cross-border shuttle and long-distance CRH tickets too. Hong Kong ID was seen as acceptable for purchases on the Open Day videos when the machines were demonstrated.


What about foreigners? If they accept Octopus Card and even PayWaver, I guess that shouldn't be a problem.


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## vlasvision

Equario said:


> What about foreigners? If they accept Octopus Card and even PayWaver, I guess that shouldn't be a problem.


No problem to buy tickets in HK, issue is to buy online, as I'm not shure how fast all the tickets for long-haul trains on September 23 will be sold


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## Silly_Walks

And for tickets back from China to HK?

And for trains trips continuing beyond the Express Rail Link?


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## cheehg

doc7austin said:


> Will the long-distance through trains Hung Hom - Beijing/Shanghai be cancelled?


I don’t think so. Those server the overnight customers.


----------



## Short

Equario said:


> What about foreigners? If they accept Octopus Card and even PayWaver, I guess that shouldn't be a problem.


Only if the foreigner has a HK residency with their ID cards, the machines do not look like they can scan passports.


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## itfcfan

cheehg said:


> I don’t think so. Those server the overnight customers.


I can't imagine the old every-other-day Beijing/Shanghai through (sleeper) trains to/from Hung Hom will continue for too long. I think it's likely that newer D-train sleepers (like those between Beijing and Shanghai, that use the high-speed lines and cut the travel time in half) will run to/from West Kowloon station in the future.

All over the China Railways network, some older sleeper trains remain, but the number is reduced as services using the high speed lines increase. When a new high speed line opens up, the service is typically limited to start with, but then frequency and destinations open up over time.

I don't expect the number of short-distance trains between West Kowloon and Shenzhen North / Guangzhou South will increase, but I expect the long-distance services to mainland Chinese cities definitely will. Of the 20 platforms at Shenzhen North, 8 of them will be dedicated to services to/from West Kowloon. On this basis, I'd expect we'll see multiple days services to both Beijing and Shanghai in the future and services to other places such as Xian and Chongqing start up too. Shenzhen North is only 19 mins travelling time from West Kowloon so it seems to large a market to avoid.

Of course, China Railways might have other plans, but given West Kowloon (at platform level) will be operated just the same as any other CRH station (disregarding the custom & immigration facilities above that) it should be simple to gradually increase service levels.


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## zergcerebrates

Interesting, so the actual Hong Kong HighSpeed Train will go all the way to other Chinese cities or will HK passengers need to transfer to Mainland Trains to continue their journey? Like if I want to go from HK to Beijing can i just sit on the same train or do I have to transfer like at Guangzhou to Beijing?


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## cheehg

zergcerebrates said:


> Interesting, so the actual Hong Kong HighSpeed Train will go all the way to other Chinese cities or will HK passengers need to transfer to Mainland Trains to continue their journey? Like if I want to go from HK to Beijing can i just sit on the same train or do I have to transfer like at Guangzhou to Beijing?


Yes. Those long distance trains listed are through trains directly to mainland cities. This is just first phase. Most of the trains are extended from those originally terminal at Shenzhen North or Futian.


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## hkskyline

zergcerebrates said:


> Interesting, so the actual Hong Kong HighSpeed Train will go all the way to other Chinese cities or will HK passengers need to transfer to Mainland Trains to continue their journey? Like if I want to go from HK to Beijing can i just sit on the same train or do I have to transfer like at Guangzhou to Beijing?


Most frequencies go only as far as Guangzhou, then you need to transfer to get to other cities further away. One of the criticisms is the massive cost in building the link but in the end would be primarily short-haul. There are no concrete plans on how much to increase long-haul services and when.


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## cheehg

itfcfan said:


> I can't imagine the old every-other-day Beijing/Shanghai through (sleeper) trains to/from Hung Hom will continue for too long. I think it's likely that newer D-train sleepers (like those between Beijing and Shanghai, that use the high-speed lines and cut the travel time in half) will run to/from West Kowloon station in the future.
> 
> All over the China Railways network, some older sleeper trains remain, but the number is reduced as services using the high speed lines increase. When a new high speed line opens up, the service is typically limited to start with, but then frequency and destinations open up over time.
> 
> I don't expect the number of short-distance trains between West Kowloon and Shenzhen North / Guangzhou South will increase, but I expect the long-distance services to mainland Chinese cities definitely will. Of the 20 platforms at Shenzhen North, 8 of them will be dedicated to services to/from West Kowloon. On this basis, I'd expect we'll see multiple days services to both Beijing and Shanghai in the future and services to other places such as Xian and Chongqing start up too. Shenzhen North is only 19 mins travelling time from West Kowloon so it seems to large a market to avoid.
> 
> Of course, China Railways might have other plans, but given West Kowloon (at platform level) will be operated just the same as any other CRH station (disregarding the custom & immigration facilities above that) it should be simple to gradually increase service levels.


I am sure they will increase the direct through trains to mainland cities. Maybe in the next timetable change. But consider the line capacity of GZ tp SZ section, increasing are very limited. Mainland trains have to return to Shenzhen or Guangzhou to do maintenance work if they are not turning back to origin. 


About T trains to Shanghai and Beijing, they may cancel if the passenger volume decreased. Actually the legacy line long distance passengers are not decreased across the China even with so many HSR lines opened and the conventional trains reduced. In 2017, The total passenger numbers are still same as 2009.


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## cheehg

hkskyline said:


> Most frequencies go only as far as Guangzhou, then you need to transfer to get to other cities further away. One of the criticisms is the massive cost in building the link but in the end would be primarily short-haul. There are no concrete plans on how much to increase long-haul services and when.


To the north, I think HK-Wuhan/Changsha could add a few more. And maybe one to Xi'an. Services to Guangxi and Guangdong can be added more as those areas are under 4-5 hours train traveling time. Also they have more connection with HK traditionally.

CR Guangzhou limits only 300 km/h train sets on GZ to SZ section, if HK wants the long distance trains to Guiling, Nanning, Foshan and Zhanjiang area, they have to use CR380 or CR400 trains. But the line speed limits on GZ-GY and GZ-NN lines are only 200-250 km/h. It is not economical to use those train sets to run only 200 or 250 km/h.


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## chornedsnorkack

Existing schedules from Shenzhen:
Shenzhen-Chaoshan: 75 daily trains total.
Shenzhen-Beijing: 2 G trains daily (G80 and G72) and 4 D trains in weekend nights
Shenzhen-Kunming: 2 G trains daily
Shenzhen-Fuzhou: 25 daily trains total
Shenzhen-Xiamen: 51 daily trains total
Shenzhen-Changsha: 50 G and D trains daily
Shenzhen-Shanghai: 6 D trains daily via Fuzhou, 4 D trains in weekend nights


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## zergcerebrates

hkskyline said:


> Most frequencies go only as far as Guangzhou, then you need to transfer to get to other cities further away. One of the criticisms is the massive cost in building the link but in the end would be primarily short-haul. There are no concrete plans on how much to increase long-haul services and when.


Hong Kong trains should be allowed to go to any Chinese city and Chinese CRH trains should be allowed into HK. Its pointless to make the HK HSR a short haul because it really is wasting money when the existing Trains to GZ from Hung Hom station already exist.


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## Short

zergcerebrates said:


> Hong Kong trains should be allowed to go to any Chinese city and Chinese CRH trains should be allowed into HK. Its pointless to make the HK HSR a short haul because it really is wasting money when the existing Trains to GZ from Hung Hom station already exist.


Unlike the current point to point conventional rail service from solely HK to Guangzhou, regional shuttle services are likely to be expanded across the Pearl River Delta and other parts of Guangdong in an interconnected network. Naturally, Shenzhen & Guangzhou are the main traffic generators and destination for many folks for the present place in time. Going forward, services to Huizhou, Shaoguan & Shantou would be likely in the future. Western services across to Zhongshan, Jiangmen & Zhanjiang would also be possible once the Pearl River tunnel is complete.

In effect, many more options are likely to be explored rather than any conventional rail routes.


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## hkskyline

Sep 11, 2018 
Hong Kong Economic Journal _Excerpt_
*XRL ticket sale gets off to choppy start*

As ticket sales began on Monday for the upcoming cross-border high-speed train service, MTR Corp has come in for criticism from the public about inadequate systems and poor arrangements.

Many people who went to the newly-built West Kowloon terminus to buy tickets for trips on the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link (XRL), which will commence operations on Sept. 23, said they didn’t have a happy experience.

Among the most-heard complaints was that the queues were moving very slowly, forcing people to stand in line for inordinate length of time.

The ticketing personnel were taking too much time to process the passengers, prompting suspicions that the staff was not up to speed with the new equipment. 

Meanwhile, there were reports of glitches in the payment systems, adding to the delays.

Responding to the criticism, MTR Corp, which is responsible for ticket sales in Hong Kong for the XRL trains, described the problems as teething troubles, and assured that the issues will be sorted out.

Sale of XRL tickets at the West Kowloon terminus began at 8 am on Monday, but some people had lined up since the weekend as they were eager to be among the first batch of people to experience the thrill of the new high-speed “Vibrant Express” trains.

However, as they stood in front of the ticket counters, what they noticed was that the ticketing staff didn’t seem to be familiar with the systems, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports.

In some cases, transactions took between 20 minutes to as long as one hour to get completed, ticket-buyers complained.

Although some ticket vending machines were also installed in the terminus, they didn’t go on stream at the same time as manual ticket sales.

Meanwhile, people who tried to buy XRL tickets by phone or online had to wait until Monday noon, four hours later than counter sale.

According to a buyer at the terminus, he waited his turn until reaching at the ticket counter at 9:30 am and did not complete the buying process at the counter until nearly one hour later.

The person said he wanted to pay by Visa payWave or Apple Pay but was rejected on the ground that some payment methods were yet to be connected to the ticketing system.

More : http://www.ejinsight.com/20180911-xrl-ticket-sale-gets-off-to-choppy-start/


----------



## cheehg

zergcerebrates said:


> Hong Kong trains should be allowed to go to any Chinese city and Chinese CRH trains should be allowed into HK. Its pointless to make the HK HSR a short haul because it really is wasting money when the existing Trains to GZ from Hung Hom station already exist.


HK has only 9 CRH380A sets. If it goes to long distance in mainland, there will be no backups if there is any issue. I am sure CRC will increase the long distance trains to HK in the future. There will be more lines opening in next 5 years: Shenzhen to Nanchang 350km/h, Shenzhen to Jiangmen 250 km/h. Maybe later this year the new timetable will add more destinations to Changsha and Wuhan direction and also Chaoshan and Fujian direction.


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## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> HK has only 9 CRH380A sets. If it goes to long distance in mainland, there will be no backups if there is any issue.


What is special about those 9 HK trains, and what stops ordinary mainland CRH trains continuing to Hong Kong as needed?


cheehg said:


> I am sure CRC will increase the long distance trains to HK in the future. Maybe later this year the new timetable will add more destinations to Changsha and Wuhan direction and also Chaoshan and Fujian direction.


This week, there are in a weekday 47 trains Shenzhen-Changsha. Later this month, there will be just 3 trains Hong Kong-Changsha: 1 to Changsha, 1 to Beijing, 1 to Shanghai.


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## Equario

Short said:


> Only if the foreigner has a HK residency with their ID cards, the machines do not look like they can scan passports.


If I don't have it, then I won't be able to buy it?


----------



## vlasvision

I came to HK yesterday and was pretty surprised to se the site of the station still looked much like construction area: fences and plastic jersy blocks everythere, so buildings are just naked concrete.


----------



## Short

Equario said:


> If I don't have it, then I won't be able to buy it?


You can only buy the tickets manually, with your passport, at a ticket window if you do not have a HK or mainland Chinese ID card. You cannot use the automated ticket machines without the correct cards.

If you buy a ticket online, it must be collected manually too at a ticket window.


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## hkskyline

West Kowloon Terminus - Express Rail Link 廣深港高速鐵路 - 西九龍總站 - 110918_DSF2529j by KK Hui Photography, on Flickr

West Kowloon Terminus - Express Rail Link 廣深港高速鐵路 - 西九龍總站 - 110918_DSF2530j by KK Hui Photography, on Flickr

110918_DSF2523j by KK Hui Photography, on Flickr

110918_DSF2526j by KK Hui Photography, on Flickr

West Kowloon Terminus - Express Rail Link 廣深港高速鐵路 - 西九龍總站 - 090918_DSF2517j by KK Hui Photography, on Flickr


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## Equario

Short said:


> You can only buy the tickets manually, with your passport, at a ticket window if you do not have a HK or mainland Chinese ID card. You cannot use the automated ticket machines without the correct cards.
> 
> If you buy a ticket online, it must be collected manually too at a ticket window.


Thanks!


----------



## Short

Here is a guide from Hong Kong's South China Morning Post website to the new West Kowloon Terminus.

SCMP's Passenger Guide to West Kowloon Terminus


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## vlasvision

Luggage limitations sounds really strange, as I have been travelling CRH with pretty big suitcase, and there was no questions.


----------



## doc7austin

Do you think the super typhoon will flood Kowloon West station?


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## Silly_Walks

^^

Has it damaged it?


----------



## hkskyline

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Has it damaged it?


Nothing on the news about it yet.


----------



## Zero Gravity

*Bloomberg: China's Bullet Trains Are Coming For Hong Kong's Airlines*

Link to the Bloomberg article

The article has some good pictures and info, I like their clean map of the High Speed rail network, not sure how accurate it is.


----------



## luacstjh98

I think Cathay have worse things to worry about now, especially with worsening pilot relations. Had Dragonair still been independent, they would be in big trouble, though...

Although I wonder if most mainland-bound pax would still fly into HKG then schlep their things across to West Kowloon for the high speed train, or just go directly to their destination on a mainland airline or connect in a Chinese city.


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## cheehg

The competition is from Guangzhou and Shenzhen airports not the HSR. Airlines to Changsha and Wuhan are affected. Also some other cities such as Xiamen,Guilin,Nanning.


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## cheehg

Some people bought tickets successfully by separated sections because the price difference is huge. He showed 2 tickets for the same train: one from hk to sz and another from sz to gz. Because the train tickets in mainland sections are priced according to CRC standards. I guess MRT has to do something to stop this practice.


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## hkskyline

The HSR is only competitive up to around 1000km. Beyond that, it is actually more expensive to take the train (fares to Shanghai and Beijing are crazy) and you can't even bring luggage that is larger than a hand carry on board ... theoretically.

The only routes that may truly be under threat would be Guilin, Nanning, Changsha, and Xiamen. None of the major centres would be more competitive by train.


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## vlasvision

hkskyline said:


> The HSR is only competitive up to around 1000km. Beyond that, it is actually more expensive to take the train (fares to Shanghai and Beijing are crazy) and you can't even bring luggage that is larger than a hand carry on board ... theoretically.
> 
> The only routes that may truly be under threat would be Guilin, Nanning, Changsha, and Xiamen. None of the major centres would be more competitive by train.


Then I was travelling Beijing-Shenzhen train in 2014, I was surprised how many people made trip from the beging till the end.


----------



## cheehg

vlasvision said:


> Then I was travelling Beijing-Shenzhen train in 2014, I was surprised how many people made trip from the beging till the end.


It is a big country. There are many people prefer railway than air.
The fastest HSR is 8h for 2200 kms. It is not that bad at all.
But out of more than 100 HS trains every day from north to Guang Dong on BJ-GZ HSR, only 5 day time trains make the whole trip. They should add more 8h trains. It maybe attract more passengers after they convert Guangzhou railway station to HSR terminal in a few years. The current South station is too far from the center. But the 5 overnight HSR trains are more attractive if you want to save time and hotel cost. 

There are 25 flights from BJ-GZ a day. 3h25m air time plus the land transportation and airport traffic. It still takes a good half day by air.


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## chornedsnorkack

cheehg said:


> It is a big country. There are many people prefer railway than air.
> The fastest HSR is 8h for 2200 kms. It is not that bad at all.
> But out of more than 100 HS trains every day from north to Guang Dong on BJ-GZ HSR, only 5 day time trains make the whole trip. They should add more 8h trains. It maybe attract more passengers after they convert Guangzhou railway station to HSR terminal in a few years. The current South station is too far from the center. But the 5 overnight HSR trains are more attractive if you want to save time and hotel cost.
> 
> There are 25 flights from BJ-GZ a day. 3h25m air time plus the land transportation and airport traffic. It still takes a good half day by air.


In Guangzhou, Guangzhou South is about 20 km from city centre, and New Baiyun about 27 km.
In Shenzhen, Shenzhen North is about 9 km from city centre, and Futian right under, compared to Shenzhen airport.
At present, there are 5 day trains Beijing-Guangzhou, but just two Beijing-Shenzhen. Shenzhen is almost as big city as Guangzhou, and the trip time from Beijing to central Shenzhen should be the same as to central Guangzhou (disembark in Guangzhou South, then connect to city transport and travel 20 km to centre, vs. sit 45 more minutes in CRH and walk out in city centre).
Should more trains to Guangzhou be continued to Futian?


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## hkskyline

*100 riot police to be on standby for launch of Hong Kong’s express rail line to mainland China*
Officers will ‘deal with any possible complications’ when Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam and Guangdong governor Ma Xingrui tour the terminal
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
September 21, 2018

About 100 riot police will be on standby near the West Kowloon terminal on Saturday as Hong Kong marks the launch of its long-awaited and controversial cross-border high-speed rail link to mainland China.

The officers would not patrol the area, a police source said, but would “deal with any possible complications” that may arise when Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor, Guangdong governor Ma Xingrui and 500 guests begin their tour of the terminal at 10am.

Officers from Yau Tsim district and the Kowloon West regional headquarters will maintain order inside the station.

The guests will then board a Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express train heading for Guangzhou South, a 142km journey that would take them 48 minutes on a non-stop service.

Legislators from Hong Kong’s pro-establishment parties said they would attend the ceremony, held a day before trains begin running.

“Everybody wants to be on [that train],” Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong vice-chairman Gary Chan Hak-kan said.

A number of the city’s 26 pro-democracy lawmakers were invited to the event but at least nine refused, with Civic Party legislators saying “there was nothing worth celebrating”.


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## hkskyline

*‘Full marks’ for Hong Kong high-speed train's maiden cross-border voyage, though some warn real test is yet to come*
City and mainland leaders praise ‘smooth’ and ‘comfortable’ ride as rail link prepares to open doors to thousands of commuters
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
September 22, 2018

Hong Kong’s first high-speed train got off to a smooth start on Saturday as it took leaders from the city and the mainland across the border, with one lawmaker giving it 100 marks, although he warned that the real test would come the next day, when doors opened to the public.

After officiating the opening ceremony at the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link’s West Kowloon terminus, Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor and Guangdong governor Ma Xingrui, along with several hundred guests – including mainland officials and pro-establishment politicians – embarked on a 43-minute ride to Guangzhou South station.

“It was very quiet, like I was on a plane,” Roundtable lawmaker Michael Tien Puk-sun said, noting how the train was travelling at up to 300km/h between Shenzhen and Guangzhou.

His one complaint was the lack of luggage space, though he still gave the experience a high score.

“Today, to be frank, of course I’d give them 100 marks, but we’ll have to see about tomorrow,” Tien said. The HK$84.4 billion (US$11.3 billion) rail link’s first train for public travellers is set to leave for Shenzhen North station at 7am, with thousands of commuters expected to use the service daily.

Pro-Beijing lawyer Maggie Chan Man-ki sent a video to the media featuring some of the 36 delegates representing the city in the National People's Congress on-board the “Vibrant Express”.

“Co-location makes it convenient for the masses! Yeah!” the group chanted in unison, punctuating each line with a thumbs up.

Those in the clip included former constitutional and mainland affairs minister Raymond Tam Chi-yuen; former Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong chairman Tam Yiu-chung; former World Health Organisation director general Margaret Chan Fung Fu-chun; and singer-turned-businesswoman Cally Kwong Mei-wan.

Former Ocean Park chairman Allan Zeman said the rail link was “going to change Hong Kong in a big way”.

“People will really enjoy it – it was 42 minutes to Guangzhou, you can go there for lunch and come back again,” he said.

Beijing loyalist Maria Tam Wai-chu said it took five minutes to go through the joint checkpoints. Passengers at the West Kowloon terminus will clear both Hong Kong and mainland immigration in one sitting.

Despite the quick turnaround, Tam noted that traffic at the terminus on Saturday was not at “full capacity”.

“I hope the service [level] can be maintained,” she said.

Former minister Raymond Tam said the ride was “very comfortable, very convenient and reliable”.

Although he was in second class, he said, it was still “very spacious”, and there was free Wi-fi in the carriage.

While some pro-democracy lawmakers had been invited to the Saturday ceremony, all declined to attend.


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## foxmulder

hkskyline said:


> The HSR is only competitive up to around 1000km. Beyond that, it is actually more expensive to take the train (fares to Shanghai and Beijing are crazy) and *you can't even bring luggage that is larger than a hand carry on board* ... theoretically.
> 
> The only routes that may truly be under threat would be Guilin, Nanning, Changsha, and Xiamen. None of the major centres would be more competitive by train.


that is completely *false*.


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## hkskyline

foxmulder said:


> that is completely *false*.


Source : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...-mtr-corp-seeking-more-flexible-baggage-rules

_Allowances for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link are currently set to follow mainland standards, meaning passengers can carry baggage only with combined dimensions – *length, height and width – of no more than 130cm and below a weight of 20kg*.

_


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## foxmulder

hkskyline said:


> The HSR is only competitive up to around 1000km. Beyond that, it is actually more expensive to take the train (fares to Shanghai and Beijing are crazy) and you can't even bring luggage that is larger than a hand carry on board ... theoretically.
> 
> The only routes that may truly be under threat would be Guilin, Nanning, Changsha, and Xiamen. None of the major centres would be more competitive by train.





cheehg said:


> It is a big country. There are many people prefer railway than air.
> The fastest HSR is 8h for 2200 kms. It is not that bad at all.
> But out of more than 100 HS trains every day from north to Guang Dong on BJ-GZ HSR, only 5 day time trains make the whole trip. They should add more 8h trains. It maybe attract more passengers after they convert Guangzhou railway station to HSR terminal in a few years. The current South station is too far from the center. But the 5 overnight HSR trains are more attractive if you want to save time and hotel cost.
> 
> There are 25 flights from BJ-GZ a day. 3h25m air time plus the land transportation and airport traffic. It still takes a good half day by air.


I love planes but in China, for domestic travel, I wouldn't consider them at all over HSR.


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## foxmulder

hkskyline said:


> Source : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...-mtr-corp-seeking-more-flexible-baggage-rules
> 
> _Allowances for the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link are currently set to follow mainland standards, meaning passengers can carry baggage only with combined dimensions – *length, height and width – of no more than 130cm and below a weight of 20kg*.
> 
> _


In theory maybe, no one cares. I have seen a person with big ass 50kg rice sack filled with stuff  If it passes through x-ray machines then it will be ok. However, they maybe more strict with HK at the beginning. Also 130cm total dimension with 70cm (28inch) height means a _*big*_ luggage anyway.


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## hkskyline

foxmulder said:


> In theory maybe, no one cares. I have seen a person with big ass 50kg rice sack filled with stuff  If it passes through x-ray machines then it will be ok. However, they maybe more strict with HK at the beginning. Also 130cm total dimension with 70cm (28inch) height means a _*big*_ luggage anyway.


The fact is it is against the rules. The Hong Kong side tends to enforce rules more stringently than on the mainland side. People still commonly smoke in station toilets at many of the mainland HSR stations I've been to even though it is not allowed. Just because people are not around enforcing it doesn't mean there is an excuse to break the rules.

The sum of the length, width and height of hand-carried baggage must not exceed 130 cm. Also it cannot exceed 20kg. A large checked bag that would go into the airplane hold would definitely not fit the requirements.


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## foxmulder

hkskyline said:


> The fact is it is against the rules. The Hong Kong side tends to enforce rules more stringently than on the mainland side. People still commonly smoke in station toilets even though it is not allowed. Just because people are not around enforcing it doesn't mean there is an excuse to break the rules.


Sure. Your claim is still *false *though. It is a big luggage not a hand carry on size thingy.


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## hkskyline

foxmulder said:


> Sure. Your claim is still *false *though. It is a big luggage not a hand carry on size thingy.


A big luggage won't likely be under 20kg anyway. You need to consider *both* dimensions and weight. Max 150cm is *not* a big luggage.


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## Slartibartfas

It's not about distance but travel time. Everything at around 2h or less is ultra-competitive, often driving aviation completely out of business or at least to the fringes. At around 4h or less HSR is still highly competitive, taking the largest chunck. At up to 6 h travel time HSR is still somewhat competitive but aviation takes already a big slice of the cake. Some connections of up to 8 h can make sense but will have a hard time competing with aviation. 

That is, if prices are kept competitive.


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## cheehg

Slartibartfas said:


> It's not about distance but travel time. Everything at around 2h or less is ultra-competitive, often driving aviation completely out of business or at least to the fringes. At around 4h or less HSR is still highly competitive, taking the largest chunck. At up to 6 h travel time HSR is still somewhat competitive but aviation takes already a big slice of the cake. Some connections of up to 8 h can make sense but will have a hard time competing with aviation.
> 
> That is, if prices are kept competitive.


Yes you have to count the total time. There are many smaller cities don’t have an airport nearby or only limited flights. So for people in those cities HSR would be a better choice.


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## cheehg

Today is the opening day of hk hsr.


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## hkskyline

saiho said:


> How is that going to help if crossings to Shenzhen and Zhuhai are still open and flights from the mainland are still landing in HKG? Are they doing it right or every crossing point has deficiencies but the high speed rail terminal was the only contact any HK immigration control has with the the virus, and they dropped the ball. Have any cases been intercepted in HKG or boundary crossings?


There has been discussion of shutting all border crossings with China to reduce the risk. But as the Wuhan officials concealed the initial outbreak and dropped the ball, the disease has spread to many other cities so sealing off Wuhan alone isn't going to work.

Shut all border crossings now, says opposition


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## hkskyline

*Hong Kong to suspend high-speed rail service in bid to halt spread of coronavirus *
_Excerpt_
Jan 28, 2020

(Reuters) - Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam said on Tuesday the high-speed rail service between the city and mainland China would be suspended from Jan. 30, and all cross-border ferry services would also be suspended in a bid to stop the spread of coronavirus.

Wearing a green face mask, Lam told a press briefing the number of flights to mainland China would also be halved and personal travel permits for mainland Chinese to the city would be suspended.

Source : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...d-to-halt-spread-of-coronavirus-idUSKBN1ZR0VC


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## foxmulder

HKer's new slogan for tourism: "Close the border". 

:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:

:lol:


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## cheehg

Anyway, there isn't many passengers those days.


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## Silly_Walks

foxmulder said:


> HKer's new slogan for tourism: "Close the border".
> 
> :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:
> 
> :lol:


Again you're laughing, without saying anything funny. What's your issue?


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## hkskyline

*China coronavirus: Hong Kong and mainland passengers descend on West Kowloon station ahead of widespread suspensions to cross-border travel*
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
Jan 29, 2020

Passengers rushed to catch the last high-speed trains between Hong Kong and mainland China on Wednesday, ahead of the city government’s shutdown of West Kowloon station and other parts of the cross-border travel network to contain the spread of the Wuhan coronavirus.

The closure of two railways and halving the number of flights serving mainland China were among the emergency measures imposed by the Hong Kong administration earlier this week that take effect from midnight on Thursday.

Many of those entering and leaving the West Kowloon terminus had been forced to change their travel plans, fearing being stranded in the wrong part of the country amid the threat of further border closures.

The station on Wednesday was limited to three entrances and guarded by railway staff and small groups of riot police.

One staff member said only one-way tickets departing from Hong Kong were being sold before the station effectively shuts down overnight.

More : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...8082/china-coronavirus-hong-kong-and-mainland


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## hkskyline

*Full refunds for express rail fares to 'ground zero' *
22 January 2020
The Standard _Excerpt_

Passengers holding express rail tickets to Wuhan can get a full refund at the West Kowloon station if they want to cancel their trip, the MTR Corp said last night.

The announcement was made a couple hours after China State Railway Group Co said people are allowed to cancel their Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link tickets at no cost until Friday amid concerns of the viral outbreak.

During an announcement at 6pm China State Railway said all passengers are allowed to cancel their tickets to and from Wuhan with no handling fee with immediate effect until 11.59pm on Friday regardless of whether the purchase was made on its official website, at stations, or through other channels.

The MTRC released a statement two hours later, saying: "In accordance with the refund arrangements of the railway authority in the mainland, passengers who have purchased express rail tickets to and from Wuhan will get a full refund if they need to return the tickets."

Unlike earlier in the morning and afternoon, Hong Kong travelers flocked to West Kowloon station to cancel express rail tickets to Wuhan only got half of their money back.

A spokeswoman for the MTRC said those who received a 50 percent refund should contact them and "they will follow it up," but could not guarantee a full refund. A Hong Kong resident, surnamed Tong, said every year he takes his wife and two children to spend the Lunar New Year with his mother-in-law, who lives in Wuhan.

More : https://www.thestandard.com.hk/sect...efunds-for-express-rail-fares-to-'ground-zero'


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## hkskyline

* Passenger got on to high-speed rail tracks and escaped through emergency exit, evading immigration clearance into Hong Kong, city’s legislature told *
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
Feb 27, 2020

A passenger on Hong Kong’s high-speed rail from mainland China gained access to the tracks at the West Kowloon terminus, escaped through an emergency exit and evaded immigration clearance, it was revealed on Wednesday.

It prompted a lawmaker to question the station’s security and whether the embattled rail operator had covered up the incident, which took place in early December. The revelation came at an already sensitive time as many of Hong Kong’s first confirmed cases of the deadly coronavirus had entered the city via the high-speed rail, which was closed on January 30.

The incident was revealed to the Legislative Council on Wednesday after Jeremy Tam Man-ho from the opposition Civic Party submitted an inquiry to the government in February after learning of the case from an MTR Corporation staff member earlier.

In a written reply to Legco, Secretary for Transport and Housing Frank Chan Fan said the mainland Chinese passenger had boarded a train at Changsha South station.

“As far as we know, the passenger intended to travel to Shenzhen North station, [but] forgot to alight,” he said.

Chan said the passenger left the train but entered the track area and walked “for a period of time”.

“He eventually left the railway premises through an emergency exit of one of the ventilation buildings and turned himself in to police.”

More : https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...ot-high-speed-rail-tracks-and-escaped-through


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## hkskyline

A Sandworm Never Satisfy by johnlsl, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

20200621 - Xpan - Ektar -8-s by Terence Yam, on Flickr

20200621 - Xpan - Ektar -15-s by Terence Yam, on Flickr

20200621 - Xpan - Ektar -14-s by Terence Yam, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

DJI_0216 by Egg Jeffrey, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

* High-speed rail terminus moving to central Guangzhou *
RTHK _Excerpt_ 
Oct 15, 2020

The SAR government confirmed on Thursday that there are plans to switch the mainland terminus of the cross-border express railway line from Guangzhou South to a station in the centre of the Guangdong capital.

The choice of Guangzhou South as the end station for the line had come in for strong criticism in Hong Kong, with many people saying its distance from the city centre defeated the purpose of having a new high-speed alternative to the old service, which while slower, takes people into central Guangzhou.

The plan to make Guangzhou Railway Station the future mainland terminus was uncovered after President Xi Jinping said on Wednesday that there was a need to boost railway network connectivity within the Greater Bay Area.

The switch had been set out in a blueprint issued in July by the National Development and Reform Commission.

Responding to an RTHK enquiry, the SAR's Bureau for Transport and Housing confirmed the plan, but did not answer questions as to when it will be carried out, or whether Hong Kong will have to shoulder any of the costs involved.

More : High-speed rail terminus moving to central Guangzhou - RTHK


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## hkskyline




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## hkskyline

* Hong Kong MTR Corp’s losses top HK$2.2 billion from suspension of high-speed rail link during pandemic *
South China Morning Post _Excerpt_
Nov 7, 2020

The Hong Kong government is likely to pay about HK$1 billion (US$129 million) in compensation to rail giant MTR Corporation to make up for massive losses on the city’s high-speed cross-border rail link with mainland China.

The Covid-19 pandemic forced the closure of the rail link for most of this year, resulting in revenue losses exceeding HK$2.2 billion in ticket sales and rental income at its West Kowloon terminus.

The much-hyped rail connection cost HK$84.4 billion and opened in September 2018, but saw daily ridership fall from 53,000 in 2018 to 46,400 last year, far short of the government’s projections of 80,100.

More : HK$2.2 billion in MTR losses from closed high-speed link amid pandemic


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## hkskyline

IMG_20201128_154338 by Martin Ng, on Flickr


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## hkskyline

_Since the high-speed rail stopped running last January, it is estimated that the government needs to reimburse the MTR Corp about HKD$370 million, which is partially offset by the rent due to the government of HKD$270 million. The mechanism is if annual patronage is below 7.7 million (actual was 1 million), the government needs to reimburse 70% at a cost of HKD$80 per passenger. _

*高鐵停運近一年　田北辰料政府須補貼逾三億元 *
Jan 2, 2021

【Now新聞台】立法會議員田北辰指，高鐵在去年一月起暫停營運近一年，預計政府要按照服務經營權補充協議，向港鐵補貼逾三億元。

立法會議員(新界西)田北辰：「本身要770萬的人次，現在達到了一百萬人次，還差670萬人次，所以政府要補貼670萬人次的7成，每程車費80元，大致上的數目為3.7億元。3.7億元是要付的，但是政府收港鐵的租金為2.7億元，由於是政府出資興建，興建後租予港鐵，政府客觀上是免租這個業主免租之餘，還補貼多1億元的差額給港鐵。」

More : 高鐵停運近一年　田北辰料政府須補貼逾三億元


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## hkskyline

* MTR opens up to tours *
May 31, 2021
The Standard _Excerpt_ 

The MTR has opened West Kowloon station and the Hong Kong section of Shek Kong Stabling Sidings on the high-speed rail for local group tours to visit for free.

The station and sidings were forced to close on January 30 last year after the first Covid-19 case was imported on January 22.

The MTR yesterday sponsored a local tour group comprising 27 members of ethnic minority families from the nongovernmental organization NHA Home Centre.

The visitors went on board one of the high-speed rail's "Vibrant Express" trains.

MTR staff were around to introduce the stabling siding's equipment and talk about operations as well as the railway's services and characteristics.

The MTR said there would be 30 designated time slots until June 20 for local group tours to visit parts of the station. It will study whether similar arrangements can be made in the future.

More : MTR opens up to tours


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## hkskyline

*Co-location challenge dismissed by Court of Appeal *
June 11, 2021
RTHK _Excerpt_ 

The Court of Appeal on Friday upheld a lower court’s ruling that the co-location arrangement at the West Kowloon express rail station is constitutional, dismissing an appeal from former lawmakers and activists.

Disqualified legislators Leung Kwok-hung and Sixtus Leung, and activists Henderick Lui and Kwok Cheuk-kin, had lodged the appeal after they lost their initial judicial challenge in 2018.

They argued that the arrangement – which houses mainland customs clearance facilities and officers in the West Kowloon facility – violates the Basic Law, because it states that mainland laws cannot be applied on Hong Kong soil unless they are included in annex three of the mini-constitution.

More : Co-location challenge dismissed by Court of Appeal - RTHK


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## hkskyline

*Fast rail name of the game at West Kowloon *
The Standard _Excerpt_
Nov 30, 2021

The "idle" high-speed rail station at West Kowloon is being upgraded to accept e-tickets through identity documents during its forced closure that started last January.

Since tickets are registered under a real-name system, Hongkongers will be able to use their mainland travel permits as train tickets and tap them at gates like Octopus cards to board the high-speed rail, saving them from having to arrive at stations at least an hour early to retrieve their train tickets at counters or machines.

Likewise, mainlanders travelling to Hong Kong can use their second generation resident identity cards to replace printed train tickets, according to The Standard's sister publication Sing Tao Daily.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong express rail connecting to the West Kowloon station commenced service in mid-2018, but has been closed since last January 30 due to the Covid-19 outbreak.

To prepare for full resumption of the express rail, though with no timetable so far, sources said operator MTR Corp had worked with mainland railway authorities to upgrade its ticketing system.

More : Fast rail name of the game at West Kowloon


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## hkskyline




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## hkskyline

* Intercity Through Train services may be terminated permanently in a year: source *
The Standard _Excerpt_
Apr 28, 2022

The Intercity Through Train services may be terminated permanently in a year, according to the media source.

Intercity Through Train service has been suspended since January 2020, after the outbreak of the Covid-19 and lasted for more than two years.

Since the Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hong Kong Express Rail Link started its service in September 2018, the patronage of Intercity Through Train kept dropping. The government disclosed in early 2019 that the patronage of through trains service has dropped by about 30%.

More : Intercity Through Train services may be terminated permanently in a year: source


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## hkskyline

* Journeys on the through train are now memories *
South China Morning Post Editorial _Excerpt_
Apr 30, 2022

The first journey to a destination, how we got there, the sights, sounds and smells – they are all important parts of collective memory. Nostalgic thoughts have come flooding back for many people in Hong Kong and on the mainland China side of the border with reports that the through train to Guangzhou, Shanghai and Beijing has ceased operation. With a history spanning 111 years, the line was long a conduit for business, family get-togethers and tourism and instrumental in development of the eastern New Territories and neighbouring city of Shenzhen. Faster and more convenient means of travel have eroded its advantages and it is now apparently being consigned to history.

Cross-border rail services have been suspended since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic in 2020, so those wishing to go for one last ride have likely missed the opportunity. In its place there is now the high-speed rail from Kowloon that cuts time to Guangzhou and the rest of the nation, buses and planes. Passenger numbers have plunged, in 2019 being down 48.2 per cent to 1.9 million. Better infrastructure coupled with a desire for convenience and time-saving travel pointed to the end of the line.

Conceived as a means of projecting British colonial power, the line that eventually ran from Tsim Sha Tsui to Guangzhou, then known as Canton, was hailed on its completion as an engineering feat. But there were long periods of interrupted service, notably during the Japanese war from 1937 to 1945 and from when the Communist Party took power in China from 1945 until an agreement to reopen the track from Lo Wu to Guangzhou was struck in 1979. During the latter period, a 275-metre walk was required to change trains.

For Hong Kong, the stretch from Hung Hom to the border was the beginning of the city’s commuter passenger network, enabling people to travel from rural districts and the new towns of the New Territories to urban areas.

More : Journeys on the through train are now memories


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## hkskyline

* West Kowloon station sees barriers set up as security tightens over Chinese leader’s visit to HK *
The Standard _Excerpt_
Jun 29, 2022 

Crowd control barriers and water-filled barricades were set up outside West Kowloon station as Chinese President Xi Jinping is rumored to be traveling to Hong Kong via high-speed rail to attend events on the 25th anniversary of the city’s return to China from British rule. 

Police on Wednesday morning stepped up security in the area of the station. West Kowloon Station Green Plaza saw water-filled barricades set up with many officers patrolling the scene. 

All exits of the station have been fenced off with officers standing guard. The sky corridor has been closed, as well as the construction site at the station. No workers were seen at the site while police officers began stationing there.

More : West Kowloon station sees barriers set up as security tightens over Chinese leader’s visit to HK


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## hkskyline

* Heavy security at West Kowloon Station as Xi to return to Shenzhen*
The Standard _Excerpt_
Jun 30, 2022 

Heavy police presence could be spotted at West Kowloon station again as President Xi Jinping and his wife Peng Liyuan were expected to take the high-speed rail to return to Shenzhen. 

Both Xi and Peng attended a closed-door banquet hosted by the outgoing leader Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor and her husband Lam Siu-por. Incoming Chief Executive John Lee Ka-chiu and his wife Janet Lam Lai-sim also joined the dinner.

Escorted by the motorcade, the president and the first lady arrived at Lam's official residence around 7.45pm on Thursday.

More : Heavy security at West Kowloon Station as Xi to return to Shenzhen


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## Zaz965

@CNGL, @Gusiluz, @gao7, does chinese bullet trains keep running to the right when they enter to hong kong?


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## hkskyline




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## VITORIA MAN

Hong Kong Transport - MTR (Subway System), Hong Kong West Kowloon Station, High Speed Rail Link to China by Jamie Lloyd, en Flickr


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## hkskyline

* HK to Nansha 10-minute travel hope *
The Standard _Excerpt_
Sept 8, 2022

Hongkongers may whizz to Nansha in Guangzhou in just 10 minutes on maglev trains from West Kowloon express rail station by 2035.

The Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong magnetic levitation trains proposal has been renewed in a smart transportation seminar in Guangzhou last month.

Experts there said they have begun a feasibility study for five railway proposals of running 600-kilometer-per-hour maglev trains, whose final destination is West Kowloon station.

Maglev is a system that allows the train to float and glide along two sets of powerful magnets at very fast speeds. There are currently only six operational maglev regimes in the world - in China, Japan and South Korea.

Mainland experts expect an annual patronage of between 28 and 35 million for the Hong Kong plan but construction can only start in 2028 at the earliest after which it would be commissioned in 2035.

More : HK to Nansha 10-minute travel hope


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## hkskyline




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## hkskyline

* Beijing-HK direct train information appears on national online train ticket booking platform *
Global Times _Excerpt_
Dec 22, 2022 

Information for a direct train between Beijing and Hong Kong appeared on China's national online train ticket booking platform 12306 on Wed but no tickets were available, with passenger services at West Kowloon Station yet to resume.

With the further optimized epidemic prevention and control measures being rolled throughout the Chinese mainland, checkpoints reopening between the mainland and Hong Kong has become a hot topic amongst the public.

On Wednesday, information of the direct train G79 between Beijing West Railway Station and Hong Kong West Kowloon Station on January 4, 2023, appeared on the train ticket booking platform 12306.

More : Beijing-HK direct train information appears on national online train ticket booking platform - Global Times


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## hkskyline

*Cross-border high-speed rail to test rides on Tue *
The Standard _Excerpt_
Jan 2, 2023

MTR will be testing high-speed rail train rides to mainland China starting Tuesday in preparation for the resumption of border-crossing travels.

"A number of staff members have already returned to duties to the West Kowloon High-speed Rail station today to start preparations for the relaunch of cross-border trains," said MTR's head of cross-boundary segment Cheung Chi-keung.

"We will start a trial period tomorrow (Tue), including West Kowloon Station, Lo Wu Station and Lok Ma Chau Station, to check the railway equipment is working smoothly," he said.

More : Cross-border high-speed rail to test rides on Tue


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## hkskyline

* Border reopening without high-speed rail unacceptable, says Michael Tien *
The Standard _Excerpt_
Jan 4, 2023

Roundtable lawmaker Michael Tien Puk-sun said on Wednesday that it is unacceptable for authorities not to resume high-speed rail train services in the first stage of quarantine-free travel between Hong Kong and the mainland.

His comments came as Hong Kong is seeking a reopening of the border by Sunday, with sources saying that it is likely high-speed rail trains and the East Rail Line service to Lo Wu station will be excluded at first. But a train service to Lok Ma Chau will be resumed.

More : Border reopening without high-speed rail unacceptable, says Michael Tien


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