# Thessaloniki, the pearl of Northern Greece



## neorion (May 26, 2006)

Greeks, like in Roman times were the educated class during Ottoman times.



> ...In addition to this, from the 17th century onwards the Ottomans began meeting problems in the conduct of their foreign relations, and were having difficulties in dictating terms to their neighbours; the Porte was faced for the first time with the need of participating in diplomatic negotiations. Given the Ottoman tradition of generally ignoring Western European languages and cultures, officials found themselves unable to handle such affairs.The Porte subsequently assigned those tasks to the Greeks, regarded as the most educated within the Empire. As a result, the so−called Phanariotes, Greek families mostly native to Constantinople, came to occupy high posts of secretaries and interpreters to Ottoman officials and officers...[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariotes"]source[/URL]





> * Fener*
> Because of the location of the Greek Patriarchate and the Orthodox Church, Fener was dominantly a Greek neighbourhood since the Byzantine period. In the 17th century, Fener became the residence of upper classes and the bourgeoisie with its hewn stone buildings and richly ornamented house facades. During the Ottoman period, an important segment of Greeks who lived in Fener, who were well-educated and fluent in several languages, held high government positions as interpreters or diplomats. During the 18th century, the majority of new constructions were made of stone or wood; and aristocratic Greek families started to build villas around the Patriarchate.
> 
> However, the settlement structure changed in the 19th century: Prominent families of Fener left the neighbourhood and moved to villages along the Bosphorus, such as Tarabya, Kurucesme and Arnavutkoy. Only officials, artisans and small traders were left behind and they moved to the unique row houses of the district. They started to build on the plots reclaimed from the fire. Until the 1960s, Fener preserved its identity as a Greek neighbourhood. With the first wave of immigrants to the bourgeois neighbourhoods of Istanbul (the Prince’s Islands, Kadikoy and Sişli) at the end of the 19th century, the population structure started to change radically. After a second wave, when the Greeks left Istanbul in large numbers in the 1960s. The deterioration of the characteristic seashore as a result of industrialization had an impact on Fener as well. Following the 1960s, new inhabitants arriving from the Black Sea region started to settle in the area in large numbers. [URL="http://fenerbalat.org/content.php?ct=District%20History"]source[/URL]


Fener Greek Orthodox College by Ottoman Greek architect Dimadis 1883










Here's a Greek architect continuing the legacy of the ancient Greeks.



> *About Demetri Porphyrios*
> One of the world's leading architects and theorists, Dr. Demetri Porphyrios is the principal of the London-based Porphyrios Associates. Known for the use of traditional and classical architectural forms, his work has been acclaimed in Europe, the United States and the Middle East. Dr. Porphyrios designed the Grove Quadrangle at Magdalen College, Oxford University and, most recently, Whitman College, Princeton University's sixth residential college. Other projects include the Brindleyplace office buildings; the town of Pitiousa in Spetses, Greece; the new Duncan Galleries in Lincoln, Nebraska; the King's Cross master plan in London and a number of urban projects for resort towns and inner-city developments in the United Kingdom and around the world.
> 
> An advisor to the Prince of Wales, Dr. Porphyrios is known for designs responsive to region, climate, nature and culture. His architecture gives new insight into the use of tradition and modernity. "A work is classical," Mr. Porphyrios says, "not because it is immutable, eternal and sacred but because it continually searches for and brings out the new. Classicism is not a style. Classicism is not a doctrine; it is philosophy of life. It is the philosophy of free will nurtured by tradition."
> ...


Now shut up. You shouldn't have started with me buddy!!!


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## Istanbullu (May 20, 2004)

Selanik was a beautiful Ottoman city mainly inhabited by Turks and Jews... They've built many historical and beautiful buildings.. many beautiful streets and neighborhoods.. but unfortunately majority of those beutiful buildings were destroyed by Greeks. 

Today Thesseloniki looks like a concrete junkyard like many other major Greek cities...  

Old Selanik when it was an Ottoman city and inhabited mainly by Turks and Jews... Can spot many mosques in the photo, they are all DESTROYED! 










and now Thesseloniki for today... A nice place for concrete fetishist like many other Greek cities...


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## Istanbullu (May 20, 2004)

neorion said:


> let me tell you that the remaining small Greek community owns billions of dollars of prime Istanbul real estate,



:rofl:


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

what a city!


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## Galatia (Oct 10, 2005)

neorion said:


> Greeks, like in Roman times were the educated class during Ottoman times.


Don't twist what i've said. We're not talking about Ottoman times or ancient Greece. Greeks left positive sciences after they've converted to Christian. And this created a weakness which resulted a 500 hundred years of Ottoman rule. 



neorion said:


> Fener Greek Orthodox College by *Ottoman* Greek architect Dimadis 1883
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't post this classy building's picture here. This is not in Thessaloniki but in Istanbul and actually despite it's a wonderfull building it's not even a landmark for Istanbul since we've got hundreds of them. And it has nothing about ancient Greeks or present-day Greeks. This building is a good example of late Ottoman art. BTW, if you envy so much this kinda classy buildings, why don't (didn't) you build same in Athens or Thessaloniki instead of destroying every Ottoman building (mosques, medereses, old Ottoman houses) in Greece.


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## skylinearth (Oct 5, 2005)

Another nice thread destroyed hno:

Istanbullu the mosques are still here, the city has a large number of them.

During the population exchange:

1.5 million Greeks, were expelled or formally denaturalized.

Expelled from Greece were about 500,000 people, predominantly Turks, as well as other Muslims. 

Furthermore, violent incidents as the Istanbul Pogrom (1955) directed against the native ethnic Greek community greatly accelerated emigration of ethnic Greeks, reducing the 200,000-strong Greek minority in 1924 to just over 5,000 in 2005.

Then, almost its entire Jewish population was exterminated by the Nazis. However, there are still some popular Jewish shops, like bookstores, etc.

Past is past, back to the topic now.


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## JustHorace (Dec 17, 2005)

A beautiful city in every way. You're lucky to call that your home.


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## neorion (May 26, 2006)

Galatia said:


> Don't twist what i've said. We're not talking about Ottoman times or ancient Greece. Greeks left positive sciences after they've converted to Christian. And this created a weakness which resulted a 500 hundred years of Ottoman rule.


 Firstly, the Byzantine Greek Empire lasted twice as long as the Ottoman Empire and was much more intellectual than you think. Why do you think the Turks considered the Greeks as the most educated in the Empire? Maybe becasue they had all the knowledge that had passed down to them from classical times? Just becasue you turn to religion, doesn't mean you lose all acadamic pursuits (look at architecture - Ayia Sofia) and while the rest of Europe was going through the 'Dark Ages' the centre of learning was in Constantinople. In fact the fall of Constantinople would benefit the west because of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_scholars_in_Renaissance"]Greek scholars[/URL] that fled and helped spark the Renaissance.



> The decline of the Byzantine Empire after 1204 - and its eventual fall in 1453 - led to an exodus of Greek scholars to the West. These scholars brought with them texts and knowledge of the classical Greek civilization which had been lost for centuries in the West. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance"]source[/URL]





Galatia said:


> Don't post this classy building's picture here. This is not in Thessaloniki but in Istanbul and actually despite it's a wonderfull building it's not even a landmark for Istanbul since we've got hundreds of them. And it has nothing about ancient Greeks or present-day Greeks.


 No, it says a lot of Ottoman Greeks and their educational and cultural pursuits, as well as their social standing in Ottoman times. They built and designed it on their own initiative. While Greeks were attending schools like this and learning about science, philosophy, classical studies and other aacademic pursuits equivalent to western education, Ottoman Muslims were attending Medresses and undertaking religious and other studies. And that school wasn't the only one, there are many more, at least four other grand schools in Beyoglu, in the neoclassical style. The reason Greeks in Istanbul built many of their grand biuldings in neoclassical style was becasue of the relationship they felt to their classical heritage. 



Galatia said:


> This building is a good example of late Ottoman art.


 Perhaps, but lets not forget that Ottoman also means Ottoman Greek, Ottoman Armenian etc and many architects (some wiould say the most important, Sinan, Balyan) were not Turkish. Also Ottoman architecture takes its inspiration from Byzantine style architecture, that's no secret. 



Galatia said:


> BTW, if you envy so much this kinda classy buildings, why don't (didn't) you build same in Athens or Thessaloniki instead of destroying every Ottoman building (mosques, medereses, old Ottoman houses) in Greece.


 I like that type of building but it's not my favourite. I prefer the neoclassical style which Greece has plenty of. 

Now, as for Thessaloniki, much of it was destroyed by a disastrous fire. Greeks blame the turks and vice versa. After that they decided to build the new city and model it on Byzantine-style architecture.

St Demetrios, the biggest and one of the most important Byzantine churches in Greece. Which reminds us that well before Thessaloniki was under Ottoman rule it was a Byzantine and ancient Greek city. Turks came much, much later. 



The 'new' city's design, obviously drawing inspiration from St Dimitrios.





I hope you understand what I'm saying. If you want to dispute me, please provide evidence otherwise give it a rest...


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## skylinearth (Oct 5, 2005)

Thank you cosmoManila!


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## Istanbullu (May 20, 2004)

neorion said:


> Firstly, the Byzantine Greek Empire lasted twice as long as the Ottoman Empire and was much more intellectual than you think. Why do you think the Turks considered the Greeks as the most educated in the Empire? Maybe becasue they had all the knowledge that had passed down to them from classical times? Just becasue you turn to religion, doesn't mean you lose all acadamic pursuits (look at architecture - Ayia Sofia) and while the rest of Europe was going through the 'Dark Ages' the centre of learning was in Constantinople. In fact the fall of Constantinople would benefit the west because of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_scholars_in_Renaissance"]Greek scholars[/URL] that fled and helped spark the Renaissance.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it says a lot of Ottoman Greeks and their educational and cultural pursuits, as well as their social standing in Ottoman times. They built and designed it on their own initiative. While Greeks were attending schools like this and learning about science, philosophy, classical studies and other aacademic pursuits equivalent to western education, Ottoman Muslims were attending Medresses and undertaking religious and other studies. And that school wasn't the only one, there are many more, at least four other grand schools in Beyoglu, in the neoclassical style. The reason Greeks in Istanbul built many of their grand biuldings in neoclassical style was becasue of the relationship they felt to their classical heritage.


neorion, the harder you try the more ridiculous you sound... Now, just because that Greek Ottomans founded a medium sized collage, does this mean that they are the most educated and sophisticated class of Ottomans?! That retarded article you posted is a crap, it's been referenced by a Greek(what a surprise). If Greeks were so educated and so sophistcated how come Greeks never managed to influence Ottoman arts, literature and architecture while it was highly influenced by French, Italian and Persian? How come Greece cannot produce many artists and scientists? How come your cities are not architecturally inspiring places?

Some of the early institutions in Istanbul which had many famous graduates including important foreign figures:

Galatasaray Lisesi(Lycee) was founded in 1481! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatasaray_Lisesi


















Istanbul University which was founded in 1453!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_University










Istanbul Lisesi(lycee) which was founded in 1882!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/İstanbul_Lisesi


















Robert Kolej(collage) which was founded in 1863! A collage which is consistently ranked among the top twelve high schools in the world!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_College


















For example I'm a graduate of FMV Işık Lisesi(lycee) - Nişantaşı which was founded in 1885...

Forgot to add..  I've also studied at Marmara University.. it's roots goes back to 1883. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmara_Üniversitesi










They are all great medreses I tell ya... 

btw seems to me thesseloniki is all about electra palace hotel... you can see it's presence taken from different angles almost in every photo... the symbol of the city is an Ottoman built tower...


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## skylinearth (Oct 5, 2005)

Hm, do not forget that Ayia Sofia, the symbol of Istanbul is a Byzantine structure.


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## Flogging Molly (Apr 1, 2007)

Ahhh my favourite city in the Med. How I miss you!


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## neorion (May 26, 2006)

*fix link*



Istanbullu said:


> neorion, the harder you try the more ridiculous you sound... Now, just because that Greek Ottomans founded a medium sized collage, does this mean that they are the most educated and sophisticated class of Ottomans?!


 From a Turkish site:



> Fener
> *Because of the location of the Greek Patriarchate and the Orthodox Church, Fener was dominantly a Greek neighbourhood since the Byzantine period. In the 17th century, Fener became the residence of upper classes and the bourgeoisie* with its hewn stone buildings and richly ornamented house facades. During the Ottoman period, an important segment of Greeks who lived in Fener, who were well-educated and fluent in several languages, held high government positions as interpreters or diplomats. During the 18th century, the majority of new constructions were made of stone or wood; and aristocratic Greek families started to build villas around the Patriarchate.
> 
> However, the settlement structure changed in the 19th century: *Prominent families of Fener left the neighbourhood and moved to villages along the Bosphorus, such as Tarabya, Kurucesme and Arnavutkoy.* Only officials, artisans and small traders were left behind and they moved to the unique row houses of the district. They started to build on the plots reclaimed from the fire. Until the 1960s, Fener preserved its identity as a Greek neighbourhood. *With the first wave of immigrants to the bourgeois neighbourhoods of Istanbul (the Prince’s Islands, Kadikoy and Sişli) at the end of the 19th century, the population structure started to change radically. *After a second wave, when the Greeks left Istanbul in large numbers in the 1960s. The deterioration of the characteristic seashore as a result of industrialization had an impact on Fener as well. Following the 1960s, new inhabitants arriving from the Black Sea region started to settle in the area in large numbers. [URL="http://fenerbalat.org/content.php?ct=District%20History"]source[/URL]


 What do you call those people, peasants?

And as much as you'd like to play it down, you must accept that they had enormous influence and did much for the Ottomans. You should show more respect and appreciation. 



Istanbullu said:


> That retarded article you posted is a crap, it's been referenced by a Greek(what a surprise).


 What article?



Istanbullu said:


> If Greeks were so educated and so sophistcated how come Greeks never managed to influence Ottoman arts, literature and architecture while it was highly influenced by French, Italian and Persian?


 The greatest influence on Ottoman art was from Sinan, who everywhere I read says he was of Greek origin. The greatest influence on Ottoman architecture is the Byzantine-style. I don't think you know anything about art or history to be honest. BTW, I just discovered that the two most influential art nouveau architects in Istanbul were Greeks. 



Istanbullu said:


> How come Greece cannot produce many artists and scientists?


 Typical childish comment. Let's just take Greeks from Istanbul and Anatolia who have had a huge influence in recent times.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lazaridis"]Mike Lazaridis[/URL], the inventor of the Blackberry, now a billionaire and founder through his own funds of the Perimeter Institute, seeking to find the elusive equation that will bridge quantum theory with relativity. That may be too hard for you to understand, but consider it one of the greatest scientific pursuits happening today.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Alec_Issigonis"]Sir Alec Issigonis[/URL], Designer of the Mini, Britain's most popular car, still being produced today and more popular than ever.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elia_Kazan"]Elia Kazan[/URL], one of the top movie directors ever, founder of the Actor's Studio that has influenced movie direction ever since. 

Now, they're just three Greeks from Anatolia and you say Greeks can't produce artists and scientists. Well if you want to play that silly game, why don't you try to match them? 



Istanbullu said:


> How come your cities are not architecturally inspiring places?


 The Acropolis in Athens is considered the inspiration behind civilization and democracy as seen on the short list of the world's wonders of the world. Anyone with half an education wants to make a pilgrimage to the Acropolis, at least once in their life-time. Its significance is immeasurable and has influenced more buildings than any other in the western world, including much of Athens' beautiful neoclassical architecture. Hagia Sophia in Istanbul is the only other building from the region on the list and that was designed by Greek architects [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidorus_of_Miletus"]Isidore[/URL] of Miletus and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthemius_of_Tralles"]Anthemius[/URL] of Tralles. You have some nerve trying to put Greeks down. 



Istanbullu said:


> Some of the early institutions in Istanbul which had many famous graduates including important foreign figures:
> 
> Galatasaray Lisesi(Lycee) was founded in 1481!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatasaray_Lisesi


 French School, which teaches Greek as a subject btw. 



Istanbullu said:


> Istanbul University which was founded in 1453!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_University


 founded as a Medrese and only started becoming a university in the late 1800's. 



Istanbullu said:


> Istanbul Lisesi(lycee) which was founded in 1882!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/İstanbul_Lisesi


 German school



Istanbullu said:


> Robert Kolej(collage) which was founded in 1863! A collage which is consistently ranked among the top twelve high schools in the world!
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_College


 American established school.

These schools were mainly founded in the late 19th century and at the time most of the students were non-Turks. Moslems had their own Medreses. Only with republican Turkey did Turks start going to them en masse. 



Istanbullu said:


> For example I'm a graduate of FMV Işık Lisesi(lycee) - Nişantaşı which was founded in 1885...
> 
> They are all great medreses I tell ya...


 Which answers this idiotic statement. Put it into historical context.

In the 19th century and into the 20th there was more than just 'one medium sized Greek College' in Istanbul. These are just the first class and famous ones.

The Zografeion and its four campuses scattered around the city.










The Central School and its campuses.










The Ioakeimeion, a prestigious girl's school.










The Zapeion, another girl's high school










These neoclassical buildings are still there as far as I know, but no, Greeks didn't contribute to Istanbul's European architecture and didn't have an emphasis on education... Just a couple of buildings and churches...hahaha

Now go try to match those achievers in science, engineering and arts...I'm dying to find out who they might be. It must be easy to match them, considering you have seven times the population and a long history of scientific and artistic education. 

Anyway, I'd rather argue with someone who has at least half a brain,...you're just a total waste of time.

Back to topic...


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## GrigorisSokratis (Apr 6, 2005)

Galatia said:


> So neorion, what happened to non Greek majority of this city? I mean Turks and Jews. Greeks were only % 15 of the population at the beginning of the centruy? So what happened to them?


Let me tell you something. I want to remind you that Thessaloniki was founded by Greeks, it was inhabitated throughout 4,000 years by Greeks, no matter how many invaders came and tried to change the ethnic element of the city there was no a SINGLE day since 40 centuries that there wasn't a significant number of Greeks in the city.

And please let me go deeper into history, and I want you to please come with me into this travel across time if possible in order to clean your confused perception about what happened actually.

Since its refounding with the name of Thessaloniki in 316BC (Therma was its older name) up until the 15th century, the city had no seen even a single Turkish person as part of its population and the number of Jews was no significant at all as it found its zenith in the 12th century with 500 representatives of that later community (Jews of the Diaspora could be found everywhere all around Europe) so the majority of the population was Greek since the founding day up until the 15th century.

Now, During Ottoman times, the city received an influx of Muslims and Jews. By 1478, Thessaloniki had a population of 4,320 Muslims and 6,094 Greek Orthodox, as well as some Catholics, but no Jews. So again throughout the 15th century the majority was Greek.

Now let's go on to the next century.By the 16th century, the numbers had grown to 7,986 Greeks and 8,575 Muslims, *briefly* making the latter the majority.

Around the same time, Jews were arriving from Spain. The invitation of the Sephardic Jews that had been expelled from Spain by Ferdinand and Isabella, was an Ottoman demographic *strategy* aiming to prevent the Greek element from dominating the city. The Sephardic Jews, *Greeks* and Muslims (among who there was a large number of Greek converted people) remained the principal groups in the city for the next 4 centuries. As for the Greeks who left the city in the 16th century they didn't disappear at all (as David Copperfield or Harry Potter were not there yet to make such miracles) they just moved out to the surrounding areas of Macedonia (as Macedonia is not only Thessaloniki but a huge region of northern Greece) mainly to the neighboring mountainous towns, from were they never relinquished the fight in order to get back their freedom. Let me remind you that the Greeks kept being the majority of the population of Macedonia all throughout the Ottoman times.

The momentary zenith of Jewish population in Thessaloniki was in 1870 when they made up the 56% of the city population with 50,000. That happened mainly because a vast number of Greeks from Thessaloniki joined the struggle against the Ottomans in Northern Greece which was mainly fought in the neighboring regions and towns; being the current Prime Minister ancestors an example of these Greeks who held the battle for freedom from the area of Proti, a town 50 kms away from Serres, which in turn is 100 kms to the NE of Thessaloniki; so like this you are going to find thousands of examples all across Macedonia.

By 1912 the muslims population made up the 23% of the city population, the Jewish the 39% while the Greeks made up the 33%. The remaining 5% was made up of other minorities.

As for the fire of August 18th, 1917 (August 5th with the older calendar system) was accidentally caused by some French soldiers that were camping there; as during World War I, a large Allied expeditionary force landed at Thessaloniki to use the city as the base for a massive offensive against pro-German Bulgaria.

One consequence of the great fire was the fact that nearly half of the city's Jewish homes and livelihoods were destroyed leading to a massive Jewish emigration. Many went to Palestine, others stepped onto the Orient Express to Paris and still others found their way to America. 

As for the Greeks coming to Thessaloniki from the old Greeks provinces of Ionia and Eastern Thrace they were 100,000 plus other Greeks from the neighboring mountainous areas of Macedonia and other ones from cities like Monastiri, Ano Nevrokopi, Stromnitsa and Philipoupoli (today part of FYROM and Bulgaria).

So, this shows you that the Greek element was the original in the area and it never dwindle despite the attempts of the Ottomans.

Finally, I would like to refocus on the point of the thread which is to show people the second largest city of Greece. I just wanted to answer to your confusing question.


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## dejan (Jan 23, 2005)

^^I'd watch what you say Grigoris, if you're mature enough you'd let other comments slide before making fleeting claims.


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## Istanbullu (May 20, 2004)

neorion said:


> And as much as you'd like to play it down, you must accept that they had enormous influence and did much for the Ottomans. You should show more respect and appreciation.


They did not had an enormous influence that's something you don't want to understand... Greeks never bothered to influence Ottoman art or literature... and your claims of stating as Greeks as the most educated class of Ottomans is an usual Greek propoganda to Greeks themselves. You can't show us anything solid on how Greeks influenced the intellectual life. 




neorion said:


> The greatest influence on Ottoman art was from Sinan, who everywhere I read says he was of Greek origin. The greatest influence on Ottoman architecture is the Byzantine-style. I don't think you know anything about art or history to be honest. BTW, I just discovered that the two most influential art nouveau architects in Istanbul were Greeks.


Sinan was an Ottoman Turk. Period. His origins mightbe Armenian(most probably) or Greek but he lived as an Ottoman Turk, educated by Ottomans, not by that mighty Greek collage  . The legendary architect is as Turkish as me and I can't see any possible way how you will get the credits for him... 

Another desperate act... 



neorion said:


> Typical childish comment. Let's just take Greeks from Istanbul and Anatolia who have had a huge influence in recent times.
> 
> [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lazaridis"]Mike Lazaridis[/URL], the inventor of the Blackberry, now a billionaire and founder through his own funds of the Perimeter Institute, seeking to find the elusive equation that will bridge quantum theory with relativity. That may be too hard for you to understand, but consider it one of the greatest scientific pursuits happening today.
> 
> ...


A canadian.. a british and an american! What do they have anything to do with your silly argument?! All those men were educated in foreign countries. The FACT is there isn't any significant Greek who got his education at Greek schools in Turkey.. which ruins your thesis that Greek collages were the place of positive science and philosophy, which infact is utter bullshit, the education at Greek schools were highly religious oriented and they were never regarded as high class minority schools... This is another fact for you... 





neorion said:


> French School, which teaches Greek as a subject btw.


It's not a French school... A very popular "anatolian lycee" as we catagorize them here.. It just happens to teach in both Turkish and French as a result of late French influence. and it does not teach Greek... :lol: You really have a very selective mind neorion... :lol: 



neorion said:


> founded as a Medrese and only started becoming a university in the late 1800's.


Medreses were the equivalent of universities at the early stages of the empire.. So yes, yes.. what's your point? 



neorion said:


> German school
> 
> American established school.


Those schools are the result of good relations between the empire and nations like USA, Germany, France etc. during that period and majority of their students were Turks, you can see many famous Ottoman figures if you look at their alumni... 



neorion said:


> These schools were mainly founded in the late 19th century and at the time most of the students were non-Turks. Moslems had their own Medreses. Only with republican Turkey did Turks start going to them en masse.


and when was the Greek collage built?! 1883! :lol: So? There are many other old collages in Istanbul, those were just one of the few most famous ones, not even necessarily the best ones... 

Would you mind to name me the old collages of Athens? :laugh: When were they built? 



neorion said:


> Which answers this idiotic statement. Put it into historical context.
> 
> In the 19th century and into the 20th there was more than just 'one medium sized Greek College' in Istanbul. These are just the first class and famous ones.


The fact is they were never regarded as collages where you may get a high standard education, by the locals of Istanbul. I don't even know the names or the locations of the so called many Greek schools even today and couldn't care less either... Ottomans collaborated with other nations to found many great collages throughout the city make it(American, French, German, Italian..), none of them being Greek... Greek schools never managed to graduate an important figure for the city yet alone the country as far as I know... 



neorion said:


> These neoclassical buildings are still there as far as I know, but no, Greeks didn't contribute to Istanbul's European architecture and didn't have an emphasis on education... Just a couple of buildings and churches...hahaha


You've said it yourself pal.. :laugh:



neorion said:


> Now go try to match those achievers in science, engineering and arts...I'm dying to find out who they might be. It must be easy to match them, considering you have seven times the population and a long history of scientific and artistic education.
> 
> Anyway, I'd rather argue with someone who has at least half a brain,...you're just a total waste of time.
> 
> Back to topic...


What achivers? Elia Kazan? :laugh: He is an American! :laugh: 

Your problem is neorion, you are living in a dream world where Greeks are the most fuckin genious people who contributed alot to the city in terms of arts, architecture etc... I'm just showing you the facts which proves the opposite... Don't get angry to me or other Turkish users because of that, it's you who always gets cocky and makes ridiculous claims and end up owned...


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## Istanbullu (May 20, 2004)

neorion said:


> And as much as you'd like to play it down, you must accept that they had enormous influence and did much for the Ottomans. You should show more respect and appreciation.


They did not had an enormous influence that's something you don't want to understand... Greeks never bothered to influence Ottoman art or literature... and your claims of stating as Greeks as the most educated class of Ottomans is an usual Greek propoganda to Greeks themselves. You can't show us anything solid on how Greeks influenced the intellectual life. 




neorion said:


> The greatest influence on Ottoman art was from Sinan, who everywhere I read says he was of Greek origin. The greatest influence on Ottoman architecture is the Byzantine-style. I don't think you know anything about art or history to be honest. BTW, I just discovered that the two most influential art nouveau architects in Istanbul were Greeks.


Sinan was an Ottoman Turk. Period. His origins maybe Armenian(most probably) or Greek but he lived as an Ottoman Turk, educated by Ottomans, not by that mighty Greek collage  . The legendary architect is as Turkish as me and I can't see any possible way how you will get the credits for him... 

Another desperate act... 



neorion said:


> Typical childish comment. Let's just take Greeks from Istanbul and Anatolia who have had a huge influence in recent times.
> 
> [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Lazaridis"]Mike Lazaridis[/URL], the inventor of the Blackberry, now a billionaire and founder through his own funds of the Perimeter Institute, seeking to find the elusive equation that will bridge quantum theory with relativity. That may be too hard for you to understand, but consider it one of the greatest scientific pursuits happening today.
> 
> ...


All those men where educated in foreign countries. The FACT is there isn't any significant Greek who got his education at Greek schools in Turkey.. which ruins your thesis that Greek collages were the place of positive science and philosophy, which infact is utter bullshit, the education at Greek schools were highly religious oriented and they were never regarded as high class minority schools... This is another fact for you... 





neorion said:


> French School, which teaches Greek as a subject btw.


It's not a French school... A very popular "anatolian lycee" as we catagorize them here.. It just happens to teach in both Turkish and French as a result of late French influence. and it does not teach Greek... :lol: You really have a very selective mind neorion... :lol: 



neorion said:


> founded as a Medrese and only started becoming a university in the late 1800's.


Medreses were the equivalent of universities at the early stages of the empire.. So yes, yes.. what's your point? 



neorion said:


> German school
> 
> American established school.


Those schools are the result of good relations between USA and Germany during the time and majority of their students were Turks, you can see many famous Ottoman figures if you look at their alumni... 



neorion said:


> These schools were mainly founded in the late 19th century and at the time most of the students were non-Turks. Moslems had their own Medreses. Only with republican Turkey did Turks start going to them en masse.


and when was the Greek collage was built?! 1883! :lol: So? There are many other old collages in Istanbul, those were just one of the few most famous ones, not even necessarily the best ones... 

Would you mind to name me the old collages of Athens? :laugh: When were they built? 



neorion said:


> Which answers this idiotic statement. Put it into historical context.
> 
> In the 19th century and into the 20th there was more than just 'one medium sized Greek College' in Istanbul. These are just the first class and famous ones.


The fact is they were never regaded as collages where you will get a high class education by the locals of Istanbul. I don't even know the names or the locations of the so called many Greek schools even today and couldn't care less either... Ottomans collabrated with other nations to found many great collages throughout the city make it(American, French, German, Italian..), none of them being Greek... Greek schools never managed to graduate an important figure for the city yet alone the country as far as I know... 



neorion said:


> These neoclassical buildings are still there as far as I know, but no, Greeks didn't contribute to Istanbul's European architecture and didn't have an emphasis on education... Just a couple of buildings and churches...hahaha


You've said it yourself pal.. :laugh:



neorion said:


> Now go try to match those achievers in science, engineering and arts...I'm dying to find out who they might be. It must be easy to match them, considering you have seven times the population and a long history of scientific and artistic education.
> 
> Anyway, I'd rather argue with someone who has at least half a brain,...you're just a total waste of time.
> 
> Back to topic...


What achivers? Elia Kazan? :laugh: He is an American! :laugh: 

Your problem is neorion, you are living in a dream world where Greeks are the most fuckin genious people who contributed alot to the city in terms of arts, architecture etc... I'm just showing you the facts proves the opposite... Don't get angry to me or other Turkish users because of that, it's you who always gets cocky and makes ridiculous claims and end up owned...


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## neorion (May 26, 2006)

Istanbullu said:


> They did not had an enormous influence that's something you don't want to understand... Greeks never bothered to influence Ottoman art or literature... and your claims of stating as Greeks as the most educated class of Ottomans is an usual Greek propoganda to Greeks themselves. You can't show us anything solid on how Greeks influenced the intellectual life.


 Propaganda? I quoted a TURKISH site that claims their importance. Once again and in Turkish so you can understand better.



> Fener
> Rum Patrikhanesi’nin burada bulunmasından dolayı, Fener, Bizans döneminden beri Rumların yoğun olduğu bir bölge olmuştur. 17.yüzyılda, Fener, kesme taştan evleri ve zengin süslemeli bina cepheleriyle seçkinlerin ve burjuvaların tercih ettiği bir yerleşim mekanı olmuştur. Osmanlı İmparatorluğu döneminde, Fener’de oturan, iyi eğitim görmüş ve bir kaç dil bilen Rumların önemli bir bölümü tercüman ya da diplomat olarak üst düzey devlet görevlerinde bulunmuşlardır.
> 
> 18. yüzyılda aristokrat Rum aileleri Patrikhane civarında ahşap ya da kagir villalar inşa etmeye başlamışlar, ancak yerleşim yapısı 19. yüzyılda önemli ölçüde değişmiş, Fenerin ileri gelen aileleri semtten ayrılarak, Boğaz kıyısındaki Tarabya, Kuruçeşme veya Arnavutköy gibi köylere yerleşmişlerdir. Geride kalan memurlar, zanaatkarlar ve küçük tüccarlar, bölgede yangından sonra boşalan parsellerde inşa edilen sıra evlere yerleşmişlerdir.19.yüzyılın sonlarında İstanbul’un Adalar, Kadıköy, Şişli gibi burjuva semtlerine doğru yaşanan ilk göç dalgasıyla nüfus yapısında köklü bir değişim başlamış fakat Fener, 1960’lı yıllara kadar bir Rum semti olarak kalmıştır. 1960’lı yıllarda Rumlar’ın kitlesel olarak ülkeden ayrılmasıyla yaşanan ikinci göç dalgasından sonra semte özellikle Karadeniz Bölgesi’nden gelen düşük gelirli bir nüfus yerleşmiştir. Bu arada, sanayileşme nedeniyle semtin karakteristik kıyı özelliği de bozulmaya başlamıştır. [URL="http://fenerbalat.org/content.php?ct=District%20History&chlang=_e"]source[/URL]





Istanbullu said:


> Sinan was an Ottoman Turk. Period. His origins mightbe Armenian(most probably) or Greek but he lived as an Ottoman Turk, educated by Ottomans, not by that mighty Greek collage  . The legendary architect is as Turkish as me and I can't see any possible way how you will get the credits for him...


 It's not about credit, it's about the facts and they don't say Ottoman Turkish. 



Istanbullu said:


> All those men where educated in foreign countries. The FACT is there isn't any significant Greek who got his education at Greek schools in Turkey.. which ruins your thesis that Greek collages were the place of positive science and philosophy, which infact is utter bullshit, the education at Greek schools were highly religious oriented and they were never regarded as high class minority schools... This is another fact for you...


 Can you back your claims or just your jealous hatred again? I back my claims... Highly religious oriented? On the contrary.



> Another Greek school of the same period, Zografyon, specialised in mathematics, while Fener Boys High School specialised in literature and history. Hanging on the walls of the school hall are oil paintings depicting writers and philosophers. Other paintings illustrate ancient stories from Homer's Iliad. The interior of the hall is predominantly neo-classical in style, with palmettes, ovolo and bead mouldings and composite column capitals. Bird motifs on the capitals lend a fairytale-like touch in keeping with the exterior. [URL="http://wheretogoinistanbul.blogspot.com/search/label/Schools"]source[/URL]


Hanging on the walls of the school hall are oil paintings depicting writers and philosophers, not icons, you uneducated ignoramus...



Istanbullu said:


> It's not a French school... A very popular "anatolian lycee" as we catagorize them here.. It just happens to teach in both Turkish and French as a result of late French influence. and it does not teach Greek... :lol: You really have a very selective mind neorion... :lol:


 It's a French school that teaches Greek as the wikipedia link says.




Istanbullu said:


> Medreses were the equivalent of universities at the early stages of the empire.. So yes, yes.. what's your point?


 Point is you had an Arabic cultural and religious education for most of the Ottoman era.





Istanbullu said:


> Those schools are the result of good relations between USA and Germany during the time and majority of their students were Turks, you can see many famous Ottoman figures if you look at their alumni...


 Wrong, the majority of the students were foreigners and it had more to do with catering to them than 'great relations'. 



Istanbullu said:


> and when was the Greek collage built?! 1883! :lol: So? There are many other old collages in Istanbul, those were just one of the few most famous ones, not even necessarily the best ones...


 The original college was established in 1454 and still owned by the Greeks of Istanbul  



> Phanar Greek Orthodox College (Turkish: Fener Rum Erkek Lisesi) is the oldest surviving and most prestigious Greek Orthodox school in Istanbul, Turkey.
> 
> Established in 1454 by Matheos Kamariotis, it soon became the school of the prominent Greek families (Phanariotes) in the Ottoman Empire, and many Ottoman ministers as well as Wallachian and Moldavian princes appointed by the Ottoman state, such as Dimitrie Cantemir, were graduated from it.
> 
> ...





Istanbullu said:


> Would you mind to name me the old collages of Athens? When were they built?


 Dude, Athens has an American, German, French, Italian, English established colleges, as well as exclusively Greek ones just like Istanbul, (big deal I say) and the eastern Mediterranean's oldest, most prestigious and IMO the most beautiful university. Also, i will add that Athens has the world's best archaeological schools representing many countries in beautiful buildings and the world's best archaeological museum. Your ignorance is laughable.



> The National and Kapodistrian University of Athens (Greek: Εθνικόν και Καποδιστριακόν Πανεπιστήμιον Αθηνών), usually referred to simply as the University of Athens, is the oldest university in the region of the eastern Mediterranean and has been in continuous operation since its establishment in 1837. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Athens"]source[/URL]


Athens College (American established) in the area of Psychiko.













Istanbullu said:


> The fact is they were never regaded as collages where you will get a high class education by the locals of Istanbul. I don't even know the names or the locations of the so called many Greek schools even today and couldn't care less either... Ottomans collaborated with other nations to found many great collages throughout the city make it(American, French, German, Italian..), none of them being Greek... Greek schools never managed to graduate an important figure for the city yet alone the country as far as I know...


 Of course you don't know because you're ignorant and poorly educated. Blame the school you went to and the 'culture of conquest' that others have written about, to erase the Greek heritage of Istanbul.



Istanbullu said:


> What achivers? Elia Kazan? :laugh: He is an American! :laugh:
> 
> Your problem is neorion, you are living in a dream world where Greeks are the most fuckin genious people who contributed alot to the city in terms of arts, architecture etc... I'm just showing you the facts proves the opposite... Don't get angry to me or other Turkish users because of that, it's you who always gets cocky and makes ridiculous claims and end up owned...


 What facts, you've shown no facts? Forget Elia Kazan since he's 'American' (OK, he's Greek-American, even tho he was born in Constantinople).

Now don't avoid the question I gave you before. Try to match at least two Turks then, that were as influential as the Greeks with origins from Anatolia that I posted. Can't do it can you...me proud Turkey boy?


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## skylinearth (Oct 5, 2005)




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## mitasis (Feb 21, 2007)

Hey guys we are really TIRED of this sick nationalism!!! You ruin every thread with this stupid crap. We all know that greek and turkish rules have done CRIMES AND CRIMES against humanity during the last two centuries. It' s really SICK you people trying to defend your countries history as far as we know that its full of blood and deaths...

Thessaloniki was one of the victims of this sick nationalism... people who know the history know that a lot of what turkish forumers write are right.... If we read Thessaloniki's history carefully we would notice that Greek state is responsible for a lot of bad things in the city. Pogroms against Turks, Jews and Bulgarians are historically proved (for example jewish population has decreased a lot of years before the crazy sick Nazi's killed 50.000 innocent Thessaloniki Jew's) Thessaloniki 100 years ago was really different of what we know now and defenetly was not a greek city, considering that greeks were the third national community of the city.

BUT why my friends turkish forumers should you start this flame war in a photo thread? I just think you want to provoke greek forumers and start again this no meaning stupid war. And you greek forumers please dont try to answer mostly with answers that are not based on historical truth. 

Yes Thessaloniki is full of concrete and it looks ugly in most parts. But if it was turkish do you think it would be different my friend Istanbullu? I have travelled in Turkey a lot and I dont think turkish cities look better than greek. No way! 

Now Thessaloniki is a greek city and people who live here are 90% Greeks. This doesnt change, this happened between wars and crimes (as this happened for every place in this part of the world). Istanbul, Izmir etc are turkish cities with 90% turkish population, through wars and crimes. We should live in peace because being enemies is good for the people who want to sell weapons but defenetly not for us, simple people living on the two sides of the Aegean.


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