# MISC | World's (biggest) tram cities



## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

Wich city in the world has the most km of tram ways?

If you think of Amsterdam, you always think of a tram. It's a part of the streets in Amsterdam. But Amsterdam only has 213km tram ways. So not the biggest in Europe. Amsterdam may not have such a big subway system, but the tram system is one of the biggest;










Newer series;









Older series;









Damrak Amsterdam, with Central Station in the back ground;









Amsterdam has 16 tram lines. The longest lines are 7 and 14 with 12,5 km. The shortest is line 4 with 6.1 km. The bussiest line is 5 (Central Station - Amstelveen) with 45.000 visitors a day.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Milan: http://www.milanotrasporti.org/pagine/rubriche/23/MILANO_TRAM_2005.jpg


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

...............network length...track length
Berlin	........191,6	
Leipzig........148,3............319,4
Praha..........141,0	
Dresden........131,4............292,0
Amsterdam	......................213,0
Halle...........84,4............177,3
München.........71,0
..........................................[km]


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## Josh (May 30, 2004)

Brussels currently has a network of 222km and 15 lines but new lines are being planned.


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## Cosmin (Mar 1, 2007)

*Bucharest* has a 286 km long tram network consisting of 23 lines. The trams transported 366 million passengers in 2007 (387 million in 2006).

Note that some lines are not running because of track modernization, so the total no. of lines a few years ago was around 30.

Trams, as all overground means of public transportation in Bucharest, are managed by RATB (Regia Autonomă de Transport Bucureşti).


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

Melbourne has roughly 250km of double track.

This is the official map, very out of scale.









Photos by Yardmaster

















By gappa









And me


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## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

Never knew there those cities also had trams.

Here is more of Amsterdam;





































The sound of the Amsterdam is very well known. You can hear in in the news at AT5 (Amsterdam TV Channel) and anywhere else. They realy need it, because otherwise the tram would crash. Because it goes through bussy streets and bussy streets. And has to deal with cars, passengers and, most important, bikes! 

Fast forward movie from Central Station to Damrak;


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Budapest ~350km,just the tracks,not the lines.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=553786


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Zürich has 110 km of Tram Lines. There are 12,7km currently under construction (Glattalbahn) and 3 more planned to be realized soon.


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## Cosmin (Mar 1, 2007)

What type of tram is that modern one in Zurich?


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

That's the Cobra.
The special thing about the is, that wheel pairs of the trucks are not connected by axles but pivot individually and are steered into curves.


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## Cosmin (Mar 1, 2007)

Interesting tram. Looks nice too; I see it's styled by Pininfarina.


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## Josh (May 30, 2004)

Here are some pics of Brussels trams :


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Coccodrillo said:


> Milan: http://www.milanotrasporti.org/pagine/rubriche/23/MILANO_TRAM_2005.jpg


I will add even this pic by Friedrichstrasse











http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rete_tramviaria_di_Milano#Rete_tranviaria

According to Atm (Milan transport authority) official data, Milan currently got 287 km of tram tracks


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## Dequal (Mar 16, 2008)

The trams in Ghent (East Flandres, Belgium)


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Turin got about 180 km of tram network










http://www.tramditorino.it/linee.htm


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

One of the world's biggest networks is Sankt Petersburg in Russia.


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

^^
I think it is the biggest one


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## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

-edit-

By 1990 the city had 700 km (437.5 miles) of track and 2 200 tram cars. In 1990 alone the trams carried 950 million passengers.

While it still had 285 km in 2001, the track extent in early 2007 was just over 220 km.

It was the biggest. The city of Saint Petersburg, Russia once boasted the largest tramway network in the world, consisting of about 340 kilometres of unduplicated track in late 1980s. Since 1995, the tramway network has seen a sharp decline in size due to the removal of major portions of track, particularly in the city centre; so Saint Petersburg lost its record in favor of Milan, Italy and Melbourne, Australia.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

I while ago I started a thread that may seem useful to some here, on the largest tram (and metro) systems in Europe. It hasn't been updated for a bit though, as by the looks of things above St Petersburg needs a major change. If someone knows the exact "route length" of St Petersburg as it stands today, I'll update it.

The original lengths came out of a book and has been constantly updated from other forumers providing information, so don't blame me if you find a network out of date. 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=65822


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Toronto's streetcar system is, by far, the largest system in the Americas. 
Total system length is 305km which {I beleive} is 190km of dual track. 
Its going to be getting a lot bigger soon as Toronto's TransitCity iniative will bring another 150km of new track for rapid transit LRT within 9 years. Toronto is also looking to extend current lines and create new ones. In 10 years Toronto could possibly have the largest streetcar/LRT system in the world. 
Also Calgary's LRT system is 49km of track.


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## alexbn (May 21, 2003)

Barcelona has only 29 km.


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## Northsider (Jan 16, 2006)

Chicago once boasted the world's largest streetcar system, though this was back in the early 20th century. All has been torn up and removed, but here is a map showing the extent:
North








South


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## X38 (Jan 23, 2008)

-Akira- said:


> Chicago once boasted the world's largest streetcar system, though this was back in the early 20th century. All has been torn up and removed, but here is a map showing the extent:
> North
> South


Idiots!:bash:hno:


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## Northsider (Jan 16, 2006)

X38 said:


> Idiots!:bash:hno:


Yea, now we just have diesel buses. It would be great to have the streetcars back.hno:


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

All we're left with now are the original numbering systems. For instance yesterday I took the #8 Bus up to the #36 bus and switched. They used the streetcar numbers on the new bus routes. Gotta love the auto industry destroying all our tram/streetcar systems. Grr...

At least Chicago still has a decent bus system though. Over 150 routes, 1 million passengers trips per weekday. You can still see the streetcar tracks when they repave streets here in the city. They just put down fresh asphalt over many of the old routes during routine resurfacing as opposed to actually tearing everything up. They obviously can't keep doing this or the surface of the roads would start being higher than the curbs/gutters. Now they take machines and scrape off the old layers of asphalt exposing brick or whatever else might be down there (streetcar lines) before coming through a few days later and sealing it all over with a new layer of black asphalt. Only when they seriously reconstruct a main street with concrete do they literally rip anything and everything up and spend some quality time laying down a new thick layer of concrete roadway/curb/sidewalk.

Although honestly I can see some reason for using buses instead of the system the city had in the early 20th century. The streetcar routes use to run down the middle of the lanes of traffic. As bad as vehicle traffic is today, I can't imagine how much slower the streetcars would be than buses concidering they couldn't have moved to the left or right to squeeze by cars like the buses always do. If they'd had their own right of way I would take streetcars over buses in a second (who wouldn't).


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## Northsider (Jan 16, 2006)

Chicagogeorge, do you know how many total miles the old streetcar system had?


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## Skybean (Jun 16, 2004)

Hong Kong.

Total track length of 30 km (18.6 miles).


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

Doesn't Melbourne now have the most kilometers of track in the world? I think it 'inherited' that title because Moscow and St. Petersburg ripped up some track. I'm not 100% sure though.





































The coloured lines are tram routes, the black ones are the urban rail system.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Skybean said:


> Hong Kong.
> 
> Total track length of 30 km (18.6 miles).


Unfortunately, HK's tram system only runs on the northern part of HK Island.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Technically, Hong Kong's tram network should include the LRT in the northwest New Territories, but even with that, is nowhere as large as the big contenders.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

RawLee said:


> Budapest ~350km,just the tracks,not the lines.


The only info I could find online put the Budapest tram system at 158 km. http://www.um.warszawa.pl/konferencje_bk/pliki/r1_3_3_tramway_system_in_budapest.pdf
Do you have a link?

So, the largest ones are Budapest, Bucharest, St.Petersburg, Melbourne, Milan, Amsterdam, Brussels, Berlin, Turin, and Toronto?

*The current Toronto streetcar network is 305.8 km.* On March 16, 2007, David Miller (the Mayor of Toronto) and the TTC announced Transit City, a major proposal for a 120-kilometre, $6.1-billion network of new LRT lines that would provide rail transit to underserved suburban areas of the city. *Once built out, the system will be 425.8 km.* 









Toronto 305.8 km
Milan 287.0 km
Bucharest 286.0 km
Melbourne 250.0 km
Brussels 222.0 km
St. Petersburg 220.0 km
Amsterdam 213.0 km
Berlin 191.6 km
Turin 180.0 km
Budapest 158.0 km

Is this right so far?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Is that track length or route length? Are they counting double tracked sections twice?


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

^^It says 'System length' or just 'length'. I don't know what they are counting. Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system

What do you make of it? I've been digging for a few hours trying to get clarification, but with no luck. There's not a lot of good data any where I've looked.


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## Iemand (Aug 16, 2007)

Belgian coast (67 km)

The Belgian Coast Tram is a public transport service connecting the cities and towns along the entire Belgian coast, between De Panne near the French border to Knokke-Heist near the Dutch border. It is the longest tram line in the world, as well as one of the few interurban tramways in the world to remain in operation. 



















http://www.dekusttram.be


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

The Toronto number is *route length*, and I doubt all the other numbers are consistent. As long as the comparison is consistent, I guess it's OK to use either route or track length.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ That's fair enough, I just wanted to check that Toronto wasn't counting double tracked sections twice as has been done with a few cities in the past. Different countries - different measuring methods.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

I found this:
http://sydneypeakoil.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=394

It suggests that it is track length, not route length. I don't know how credible it is though. If you find some good links, let me know.



hkskyline said:


> The Toronto number is *route length*, and I doubt all the other numbers are consistent. As long as the comparison is consistent, I guess it's OK to use either route or track length.


So, the track length would be considerably lower due to double counting some track twice or even three times? What about the other figures people are posting. It seems like a giant mess trying to sort it out.

It would be nice to have a top 25 route length list and a different top 25 track length list.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

city_thing said:


> Doesn't Melbourne now have the most kilometers of track in the world? I think it 'inherited' that title because Moscow and St. Petersburg ripped up some track. I'm not 100% sure though.


There is a close race around the length that Melbourne has (some sources say 245km, some 250km route).

Milan has around 287km
Katowice around 245km
Vienna 240km

Those three above may be old figures and they may have expanded since then.

I believe the streetcar length for Toronto is the overall track length, not route length which makes it irrelevant to this comparison.

This also doesn't include metropolitan area's. Some metro area's have multiple tram networks (think Paris, Frankfurt-Rhein Main and the Rhein Rurh).

Of note, the Melbourne tram network seems to have a disapportionate number of stops. I guess a big part of this is that many are just half stops, i.e. in one direction. So, what would be called a single stop almost everywhere else would be often named as two stops, one for each direction. Likewise, in most cities a junction between two lines would still be called one stop, but in Melbourne this maybe called 4 stops.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

isaidso said:


> I found this:
> http://sydneypeakoil.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=394
> 
> It suggests that it is track length, not route length. I don't know how credible it is though. If you find some good links, let me know.
> ...


Maybe this should be clarified somewhere here. 

Route length: Length of Passenger routes. Does not include sidings, double tracks etc. Basically this is the figure people want as it shows the network in real passenger movements. 

Track length: This includes all track, sidings, double tracks, depots etc. Of good use to rail companies but little use to general public.


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## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

The belgium one is nice. But I think we only have to do with 1 city. Not more.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Justme said:


> Maybe this should be clarified somewhere here.
> 
> Route length: Length of Passenger routes. Does not include sidings, double tracks etc. Basically this is the figure people want as it shows the network in real passenger movements.
> 
> Track length: This includes all track, sidings, double tracks, depots etc. Of good use to rail companies but little use to general public.


Thanks. I didn't know a great deal about the various terminology and variations around the world, but thought the definitions would mean the opposite. Thanks for clearing it up.

'Hksyline' is saying the Toronto figure I posted is *route *length, so the list I compiled should stay since it's the more conservative figure?


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

isaidso said:


> Thanks. I didn't know a great deal about the various terminology and variations around the world, but thought the definitions would mean the opposite. Thanks for clearing it up.
> 
> 'Hksyline' is saying the Toronto figure I posted is *route *length, so the list I compiled should stay since it's the more conservative figure?


No worries, easy mix up, I don't know enough about the Toronto Tram network to say for sure, but from what I have seen it doesn't look like the world's longest.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Yeah, it seemed rather suspicious to me too. I would have thought Melbourne or somewhere in Europe would have a far larger system, but then again, the system here is rather extensive in the central city, and Toronto's a fair bit bigger than those other cities listed. Who knows. I'll keep checking back and hopefully a clearer picture will emerge.


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## vidya (Jun 17, 2008)

Here are few pics of trams in india
Tram 1
Tram 2


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## MelbourneCity (Sep 12, 2002)

Melbourne's is the biggest system in the English speaking world, and third biggest in the world. 
Sydney used to have a system much bigger than Melbourne, as did many other cities.


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## Wuppeltje (Jan 23, 2008)

The route length is that the total number for each line from A to B and back to A? Just asking, because other wise it might be wierd with single track routes.


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## scorpiogenius (Apr 28, 2007)

I donno the biggest one, might just be St. Petersburg, but *Dublin* is having the newest and smallest one of the lot.

Just over 20 km of tramline


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

Wuppeltje said:


> The route length is that the total number for each line from A to B and back to A? Just asking, because other wise it might be wierd with single track routes.


No, the route length is the passenger travel length between A & B of a single line (regardless of number of tracks), If another say from C to D uses a portion of A & B's line, that shared portion is only counted once.


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## Wuppeltje (Jan 23, 2008)

^^

2 things

1. What if a route goes in a circle with single tracks? If a routes goes from A to B, than to C back to A. Is this the full route length? 

2. In Amsterdam there are several tracks with 5-6 different tram lines, even a part with 7 trams (40 trams an hour are not uncommen, so 80 trams in both directions). If it would only count once, just as a single track with only 1 tram, it wouldn't say nothing at all. Even track length would be better to count than for Amsterdam. For Amsterdam the route length as I understand now would be far worse for measuring the "the network in real passenger movements".


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

isaidso said:


> The only info I could find online put the Budapest tram system at 158 km. http://www.um.warszawa.pl/konferencje_bk/pliki/r1_3_3_tramway_system_in_budapest.pdf
> Do you have a link?


Yellow are the tracks:









It would be 158 if it would be single-tracked...but its not. So my ~350 km is true,asd I said "track length". If you want,count the length of the lines on this site,though double their lengths,as it only shows one-way...
Here are the routes:
http://www.villamosok.hu/balazs/visz/index.htm


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

Wuppeltje said:


> ^^
> 
> 2 things
> 
> ...


It's really easy to answer if you think of it this way. How long is it between your house and work? (not necessarily talking about trams here, but just distance). Think of that distance as the route length between your house and work. It has nothing to do with how many tracks can take you there, or how many lanes on the road. A 6 lane highway has the same route length as a 2 lane road.

If it is 6km between your home and work, that is how long it is to you. It is the only measurement you need. If it's a 6lane highway, you don't start to think that work is now 36km away. It's the same for a tram line. 

A circular line is the same thing. It's essentially the circumference of the line as it's a circle, so in that effect treated no differently to a standard line.

You must of cause subtract any shared lines so it is only counted as one. This then gives the total network route length.


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## Petr (May 8, 2004)

Tramwaje Warszawskie http://www.tw.waw.pl/index2.html

length of double tracks in passenger use - 122 km
number of lines - 28 (plus 1 tourist line in July and August)










number of trams - over 850 cars (mainly in double sets) 
http://tramwar.republika.pl/
13N








105Na








105N2k








116Na








123N








120N


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## X38 (Jan 23, 2008)

Antwerp, Belgium:
Our tram network
Our old PCC-trams:








Our new Siemens trams:








A Siemns tram in our underground sytem:








Antwerp has both streetcar and partially underground system (premetro).
A separate map of the underground: (we have some useless tunnels)








One of the stations:


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## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

Justme said:


> It's really easy to answer if you think of it this way. How long is it between your house and work? (not necessarily talking about trams here, but just distance). Think of that distance as the route length between your house and work. It has nothing to do with how many tracks can take you there, or how many lanes on the road. A 6 lane highway has the same route length as a 2 lane road.
> 
> If it is 6km between your home and work, that is how long it is to you. It is the only measurement you need. If it's a 6lane highway, you don't start to think that work is now 36km away. It's the same for a tram line.
> 
> ...


Thanks. This will help.


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## Tyson (May 2, 2006)

According to Yarra Trams who are the operator of Melbourne's tram network:

- 249km of double track.
- 1,770 stops.
- 28 standard routes including the free city circle.
- 499 vehicles available for regular use.
- 155 million passenger journeys each year.
- 1,880 staff employed. including 1,100 drivers.
- 8 depots.


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## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

According to Wikipedia the biggest network is in Sint Petersburg. "In 2002 it had 691km of track and 64 different lines." "It has 2402 trams, Wien supposed to have the biggest network."


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## Wuppeltje (Jan 23, 2008)

Justme said:


> It's really easy to answer if you think of it this way.
> 
> You must of cause subtract any shared lines so it is only counted as one. This then gives the total network route length.


My point is that if you count it in this way it hardly adds anything to the track length, and in case of Amsterdam, and probably more cities it says even less. 

Further of all it doesn't seems to be clear either, because I see already several people giving the total line length for each line from A to B and back, which says far more to compare it to my opinion.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

scorpiogenius said:


> I donno the biggest one, might just be St. Petersburg, but *Dublin* is having the newest and smallest one of the lot.
> 
> Just over 20 km of tramline


I love this new Luas system, the trams are class.

There's two lines in Dublin isn't there? I remember reading that they don't connect though, so you have to walk from the end of one line to the beginning of the next one. Is that true?


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## JloKyM (Mar 3, 2007)

Sofia 

-308 km of single track
-200 vehicles
-400 drivers
-3 depots


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

I am amazed at how many tram lines are being demolished in Moscow. This is unheard of today. It's like what the West was doing in the 1950's and 1960's. Is Russia still existing 50 years in the past?


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## Tramwayman (Jan 22, 2009)

THIS MAP IS HISTORY OF MOSCOW TRAM FROM BEGGINIGN TO NOW FROM 1899-2009 BUILDING TRAM LINES DEMOLISHING BUILDING DEMOLISHING AND LIKE THIS

WHILE THEY SHUT DOWN OTHER THEY BUILD ANOTHERS AND LIKE THIS.


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## Tramwayman (Jan 22, 2009)

BUILDING METRO COMPARED TO TRAM IS JUST A NIGHT DREAM MAYBE MOSCOW IS NOT ABOLISHING IT'S LINES NOW NOR ST PETERSBURG.

ONE LITTLE CLOSURE WAS IN MOSCOW IN 2008 BUT THE LINE THEY SAVED MAYBE WANT TO MAKE IT LONEGR AND MAKE TURNOUT SOMWHERE ELSE CAUSE THE CURRENT TURNOUT IS BUILDING UP BY AN INVESTOR THAT'S WHY THE LINE CLOSED. BUT EVERYTHING REMAINS THEY REPAIRED THE ROAD BUT THE RAILS AND CATENARY ARE LEFT IN GOOD CONDITION THEY SAVED LINE MAYBE JUST IN CASE.


ANOTHER CLOUSURE WAS ALSO IN 2008 LITTLE BIGGER UPPER PART OF LENINGRAD'S AVENUE.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

^^ What's with the capitals? :nuts:

It's been well documented on here before that Russia's two biggest cities are tearing up their tram networks - the map you posted is really just the icing on the cake. 

Russia must be stuck in 1952 if they think getting rid of trams is a good idea. Considering the traffic in Moscow is a nightmare as well - Russia should be putting down more tracks.


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## Tramwayman (Jan 22, 2009)

Well russia is in 1952 not only with the reason removing trams but also with politic issues so let's not talk about in which century russia has left ahaha


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## fuutott (Mar 29, 2006)

While technically it is not a tram system in one city I think it should be at least mentioned in this thread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Interurbans


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## Adam2707 (Dec 10, 2006)

Abu Dhabi is planning a large tram network. About 340km in total.
First phase is to open in 2013 and fully complete by 2030.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

I read somewhere that with St Petersburg ripping up their tracks that Melbourne now holds the honor of having the largest system anywhere. Not sure if this is based on route KM, track KM or number of vehicles.


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## OettingerCroat (May 24, 2005)

zagreb tram network is quite large, 19 lines and 115km or so of track; more are planned as well. it is on narrow gauge (1000mm), probably one of the biggest narrow gauge systems in the world!


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Some pictures of melbourne's two latest tram extensions:

Docklands Drive was opened just a few years back, but is now starting to look like a mature street:



















On the other side of the former docks, the Collins Street line is also being extended: several "superstops" are being constructed.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

ajw373 said:


> I read somewhere that with St Petersburg ripping up their tracks that Melbourne now holds the honor of having the largest system anywhere. Not sure if this is based on route KM, track KM or number of vehicles.


I think it was based on route KM ... but try track as well, we're still laying it out. See my last post.


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## invincible (Sep 13, 2002)

I don't think Melbourne is the largest in route nor track km. The only extension underway is the Collins St extension which is only a few hundred metres long at most. This pales in comparison to other cities with much greater expansion plans.


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## davsot (Dec 27, 2008)

The Abu Dhabi map is frikin awesome! 

Tramz rule!

So glad they're building trams.


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## davsot (Dec 27, 2008)

Lol that Melbourne tram route is freakin awesome!! (the busiest one in the world)

xDDDD

Tram Traffic Jam!


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

invincible said:


> I don't think Melbourne is the largest in route nor track km. The only extension underway is the Collins St extension which is only a few hundred metres long at most. This pales in comparison to other cities with much greater expansion plans.


We not talking about the future but today. I read somewhere that Melbourne now had the honour, not due to expansion, but due to other cities, St Petersburg in particular shrinking. Whish I could find where I read that though.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ According to Yarra Trams (the current operator of the Melbourne System):


Melbourne has the biggest tram network in the world with 249 kilometres of double track. 
There are more than 1770 tram stops across the network. 
Yarra Trams operates 27 tram routes and the free City Circle tourist tram.

Other details from the Yarra Trams website or from the Ministry of Transport website:

Passengers 170 million per annum (likely to be understated since Melbourne has a fare system which enables you to use tram, bus & train on a single ticket)


Stops: 1814 (MOT); 1770 (Yarra Trams)
Routes 29 / 28
Fleet: 501 vehicles
31,400 services per week
24.8 million vehicle-km per year
1900 staff, 1150 of which are drivers

Before citing greater route length for St. Petersburg or elsewhere, please ensure that you are talking about route length, not track length (this has been a frequent source of confusion in these forums in the past). Nor should different tram "routes" (services) running over the same section of track be counted seperately for each service.

249 km of double track means 498 km of track: plus a bit more for the odd sections of triple track. Let's ignore sidings in depots, etc., which are not in service to the public. As I indicated in my previous posting, the total will increase slightly once another 700 m or so of route opens in Collins Street West.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

500 vehicles for ~500 km double track is not really much. We have about ~700 for ~300 km double track.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

RawLee said:


> 500 vehicles for ~500 km double track is not really much. We have about ~700 for ~300 km double track.


Well, we weren't claiming to have the largest tram fleet ... how many vehicles would you count this as?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

You dont want to compete in this,we have the longest tram in the world,the Combino Supra NF12B.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Maybe not ... I must say the general design is rather similar. 

We use trains for that sort of stuff.

Tram Network:










Train (Metro) Network:


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## OettingerCroat (May 24, 2005)

RawLee said:


> You dont want to compete in this,we have the longest tram in the world,the Combino Supra NF12B.


damn... but i think milano's trams have more sections (7 if i remember correctly)


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

54m - the longest passanger tram in the world,only the cargotram in Dresden is longer.

http://www.blurtit.com/q112974.html

"The special version of the Combino used in Budapest (the Combino Supra Budapest ) are 54 meters long and 2.4 meters wide, making it the world's longest streetcar."

I'd add that it serves the busiest tramline in the world,but I guess it depends in what way busiest - number of trams,or number of passangers.


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

OettingerCroat said:


> damn... but i think milano's trams have more sections (7 if i remember correctly)


Yep
But it is 'just' 37 m long


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

RawLee said:


> 54m - the longest passanger tram in the world,only the cargotram in Dresden is longer.
> 
> "The special version of the Combino used in Budapest (the Combino Supra Budapest ) are 54 meters long and 2.4 meters wide, making it the world's longest streetcar."
> 
> I'd add that it serves the busiest tramline in the world,but I guess it depends in what way busiest - number of trams,or number of passangers.


I'll stay out of any argument over the world's biggest or longest tramcar, but both our Ministry of Transport here and the commercial operator (Yarra Trams) claim this to be the busiest tram-route in the world.

The route is Swanston Street- St. Kilda Road Melbourne, which handles 9 or 10 distinct services. It handles about 1400 trams per day.

Terminal facilities at Melbourne University, north of the city: there are three sidings between the tracks to shunt terminating trams here: some services operate north from here (hence "platform 2" on the sign board)










Passenger departure point: since I'm a lazy bugger I try to avoid the peak-hour crowds: this was about 3 pm in the afternoon.










Trams crossing Princes Bridge , in the centre of the city: main railway station on the left.










Shunting facilities outside of the "National Gallery of Victoria"



















At Domain Road, South Melbourne: closer to peak-hour. Some of these stops do 40,000 passengers a day.










It handles 1400 trams per day.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Yardmaster said:


> I'll stay out of any argument over the world's biggest or longest tramcar, but both our Ministry of Transport here and the commercial operator (Yarra Trams) claim this to be the busiest tram-route in the world.
> 
> The route is Swanston Street- St. Kilda Road Melbourne, which handles 9 or 10 distinct services. It handles about 1400 trams per day.


Thats why I said,it depends on what way busiest. We have about 200000 passengers on the 4-6 line(s ,their only difference is 1 station). 40 trams go back and forth,every 90-120 second. Most of the day,thats about 30 trams/direction/hour. So 60 an hour. I use only the 13 hours when traffic is more than few trams per hour. Thats 780 trams a day(give or take a few 10's),on 7,5 kms,at any given point of the route. I claim,our line is the busiest passanger-wise.


I can show you convergence points,where numerous lines meet with trams waiting for the previous one to leave the station,but I dont think thats the point. My point is,it is truly a line,a 7,5km long line,not a 500m long section.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

RawLee said:


> Thats why I said,it depends on what way busiest. We have about 200000 passengers on the 4-6 line(s ,their only difference is 1 station). 40 trams go back and forth,every 90-120 second. Most of the day,thats about 30 trams/direction/hour. So 60 an hour. I use only the 13 hours when traffic is more than few trams per hour. Thats 780 trams a day(give or take a few 10's),on 7,5 kms,at any given point of the route. I claim,our line is the busiest passanger-wise.
> 
> 
> I can show you convergence points,where numerous lines meet with trams waiting for the previous one to leave the station,but I dont think thats the point. My point is,it is truly a line,a 7,5km long line,not a 500m long section.


I'm not talking about a 500 metre section of track: it's about 5 km from the University Terminal to the Domain interchange.

You haven't understood that trams 1,3,5,8,16,64,67,& 72 all follow the same route from the north side of the city to the south side- over a distance of 5 km or so- from whence the individual routes (and the 1400 trams) diverge ... 










Trams on platform 1 run south; trams on platform 2 run north, but all along the same thoroughfare. 5 km or so south, they diverge ...

In the course of this, they cross numerous other east-west trams: but I haven't even considered them here.

I really can't comment on passenger numbers, since I don't have figures in general. However I do have the Timetable Info for Melbourne.

If you could do the same for me - and help me out with my Hungarian- we could probably sort this out. This perhaps indicates the dificulties of comparing systems thousands of km apart- when (if previous instances are any guide) we don't really understand what the other is talking about.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Timetable? Both lines come every 4-5 minutes in rush,5-6 out of rush(that is what is written in the timetable),which means either a tram 4 or a tram 6 comes every 2nd minute,which usually gets down to 90 sec due to other traffic crossing the tracks. Trams cant get more frequent,becaue then the crossing traffic wouldnt have a chance to get acrosss(thats why I dont get how can 1400 trams go there a day,that is,assuming they run ~18h,77 trams an hour,more then 1 every minute).

Definite arrival time is only cited for trams before 5 and after 20 hours...no other line uses this section,only that 2. There are 18 stations on the common section(both have 19 stations in total).


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

the number or the length of the trams is irrelevant, if you could cut a combino in half but fill it with the same amount of people, it would show twice as many vechicles / time..

this video is 1 minute long and you have 4 combinos, 2 per dicrection, in it. at night.
first you see 2 next to each other, then the camera turns as the 1st moves away, you cen see the 3rd and by the time he turns back, the 4th is already at the stop


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

^^
Cool

I have to come back to Budapest. And I have to go to Melbourne too: never been in Australia; everybody talk about Sidney but I'm more curious about Melbourne (not only for the tram web  )


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

gramercy said:


> the number or the length of the trams is irrelevant, if you could cut a combino in half but fill it with the same amount of people, it would show twice as many vechicles / time..
> 
> this video is 1 minute long and you have 4 combinos, 2 per dicrection, in it. at night.
> first you see 2 next to each other, then the camera turns as the 1st moves away, you cen see the 3rd and by the time he turns back, the 4th is already at the stop


Anyway about tram frequencies. It's an interesting point: but I think in points where many lines share the tracks 'traffic' is on those levels you pointed out

I found that video (BTW it would be interesting to create a thread with tram videos) of one of Milan busiest point, Piazza Cordusio


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Yardmaster said:


> I'll stay out of any argument over the world's biggest or longest tramcar, but both our Ministry of Transport here and the commercial operator (Yarra Trams) claim this to be the busiest tram-route in the world.


Ok,I've thought a bit,and found a route where 5 tramlines converege for a kilometre. It is a bit hard to count the number of trams there,as most lines dont have specific arrival time here,but general following time(like 4-6 min). In these case,I've countes with 5 min following. It came to be 1330. So if trams do follow 4 minutes,instead of 5,it could be around 1500. See for yourself:

18
http://www.bkv.hu/villamos/18vissza.html
2+2*8+7+5*6+4*8+2*6+3*3+1=2+16+7+30+32+12+9+1=109 *2=218

19
http://www.bkv.hu/villamos/19-41vvissza.html
2+5+2*6+7+4*6+7+6+5*7+6+4+3+1=2+5+12+7+24+7+6+35+6+4+3+1=112 *2=224

41
http://www.bkv.hu/villamos/41vissza.html
2+3+15*4+3*3+1=2+3+60+9+1=75 *2=150

47
http://www.bkv.hu/villamos/47vissza.html
2+4+12+13+11+4*10+11+11+12+12+13+11+9+5+3*3=175 *2=350

49
http://www.bkv.hu/villamos/49vissza.html
5+8+12+15+12+4*10+11+13+13+13+13+11+10+2*6+5+1=194 *2=388

Line 19 is currently substituted with buses due to reconstruction works...


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

All that really make me want to make something similar for Milan... but I'm too lazy 

Anyway I find it very interesting


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

RawLee said:


> Ok,I've thought a bit,and found a route where 5 tramlines converege for a kilometre.


móricz-gellért?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

gramercy said:


> móricz-gellért?


Yes.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Toronto's will be getting a lot bigger over the next decade with 150km of new ROW streetcar lines being built including a minimum of 10km of underground LRT thru Toronto's TransitCity. Construction of the first 15 will begin this year.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

RawLee said:


> Ok,I've thought a bit,and found a route where 5 tramlines converege for a kilometre. It is a bit hard to count the number of trams there,as most lines dont have specific arrival time here,but general following time(like 4-6 min). In these case,I've countes with 5 min following. It came to be 1330. So if trams do follow 4 minutes,instead of 5,it could be around 1500. See for yourself:
> 
> 18
> http://www.bkv.hu/villamos/18vissza.html
> ...


Well done! You'd have to be at least a serious contender: I haven't added the figures up for the lines through Swanston Street/ St. Kilda Road: I've based my claims on Government & Operator websites or documents. I suspect the figure of 1400 has been rounded up or down (and has probably varied since the claim was published).

I wasn't aware that Budapest had such a prominate standing in the trammway world. St. Petersberg: yes, because it was so often cited here as the largest in the world (and indeed, way back Melbourne had the second largest cable-tram network, after Chicago).

Is there an English language guide to the trams of BudaPest? Genius Loci, I have thought of trying to create a map at standard scale of our tram network (as I observed you did for many other cities), but it's too much work at the moment.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

ssiguy2 said:


> Toronto's will be getting a lot bigger over the next decade with 150km of new ROW streetcar lines being built including a minimum of 10km of underground LRT thru Toronto's TransitCity. Construction of the first 15 will begin this year.


The silly thing is, is that Budapest has 150 kms but it could easily absorb anoth 100 kms of network. But sadly we'll only see 10-20 kms max in the near future.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Yardmaster said:


> Is there an English language guide to the trams of BudaPest?


The best one can find on the net,and available in english!
http://hampage.hu/trams/e_index.html


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

^^ thanks for that: I have read several guides to Budapest (DTK, Lonely Planet- which is published here). I'm digesting your link.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Yardmaster said:


> ^^ thanks for that: I have read several guides to Budapest (DTK, Lonely Planet- which is published here). I'm digesting your link.


Then this is the part of his blog you are looking for:

Tram-hiker's guide to Budapest


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Thanks for that. I did a bit of reading. Can I presume from this:










that the km or so where all those tram lines (18, 19, 41, 47, 49) converge is were they cross over the bridge over the Danube?

If we add the other fixed rail systems in Melbourne, the system starts to look a bit complicated too:










(courtesy Rail Map Australia ; Home Page. )

More to the point, I did the arithmetic along for the timetables along our busiest route, which runs from Melboutrne University to The Domain:










What I came up with this (unidirectional):

Route 1: 104 + 3 additional Fridays
Route 8: 104 + 3 additional Fridays
Route 3: 79 + 3 additional Fridays
Route 5: 61
Route 6: 86 + 2 additional Fridays
Route 16: 94 + 2 additional Fridays
Route 64: 80 + 2 additional Fridays
Roure 67: 80 + 3 additional Fridays
Route 72: 83 + 3 additional Fridays

Total 641, + 22 additional Fridays : doubled: 1282 + 44 (1326). The claim of 1400 here may have included the 55 trams, which run for a short distance along this route, but quickly diverge.

One thing I've learnt so far about Hungarian is that "perc" mean something line "every so minutes" (correct me if I'm wrong).

So, if you can actually produce hard figures for the number of trams running over that bridge, you may take the prize for the busiest route (in terms of services!) But ours is longer!


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

No,its not a bridge. Its after a bridge. There arte geographical reasons behind this. There are 2 routes to go south at Buda(left) due to the mountains.I show you:










The blue circles show the only 2 north-south routes. The red lines are the tracks.

Perc is minute.


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

Then the busy section you refer to is along the river bank above the small blue circle ?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Yardmaster said:


> Then the busy section you refer to is along the river bank above the small blue circle ?


No,its the one south of the bridge,the one that goes into the city,the one south of the bridge,if it better that way.

Starts here








(wiki)

And ends here:









(metro4.hu)
(Tthere are 5 trams on the last pic!)


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## jimmialli (Jun 29, 2006)

Does anyone have an idea when the Domain Tram Interchange in Melbourne will be renovated - it is one of the main interchanges and it looks like it was last updated in the 60's - it blows! Those ones near the Uni look heaps better. I think it would be nice if they could make it look a little like the shrine.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

^^ Ask in the Tram Thread in the Ozscrapers Transport section. 

I don't think there are any plans as of yet, though something might be done when the metro tunnel is constructed.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

city_thing said:


> ^^ Ask in the Tram Thread in the Ozscrapers Transport section.
> 
> I don't think there are any plans as of yet, though something might be done when the metro tunnel is constructed.


I read in Transit Australia that there are plans to remodel the interchange both in terms of track layout and passenger accommodation. Don't recall when though.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

Just to slow an Australian takeover, I should point out to international readers that Melbourne also has one of the slowest tram systems in the world. I've seen the list somewhere, I'll try to find it. Its average speed is near bottom of the list (15 kph I think). Lack of traffic priority and stops averaging 0.25 km apart do not help. Travelling on a Melbourne tram is like being in a coma!

But full marks to Melbourne for at least keeping trams.

Prague public transport is supposed to have very high vehicle distances (more than 4 x Amsterdam for example), this is another factor as well as route mileage. Where I lived in Prague there were trams through the nearby stop (both directions) every 15 seconds in peak. Also very high acceleration and fast journeys. Modrany line I timed at average speed of 25 kph from centre to terminus. It mightn't be the biggest tram city but certainly one of the best.

Sydney had one of the biggest tram systems in the world but destroyed it completely in the 1950s. There were many tram sustems in Australia but all were destroyed except Melbourne and one line in Adelaide.


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## jimmialli (Jun 29, 2006)

I have also heard that Melbourne's tram tracks are a bit unusual in that the trams run on the street and cross over other streets at intersections. In other cities they run on dedicated tracks and need not stop at traffic lights. This may explain why the trams in Melbourne run slow. The light rail in Melbourne is much quicker though.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

jimmialli said:


> I have also heard that Melbourne's tram tracks are a bit unusual in that the trams run on the street and cross over other streets at intersections. In other cities they run on dedicated tracks and need not stop at traffic lights. This may explain why the trams in Melbourne run slow. The light rail in Melbourne is much quicker though.


Trams also run on streets in a lot of cities.


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## SM247 (Dec 5, 2006)

jimmialli said:


> I have also heard that Melbourne's tram tracks are a bit unusual in that the trams run on the street and cross over other streets at intersections. In other cities they run on dedicated tracks and need not stop at traffic lights. This may explain why the trams in Melbourne run slow. The light rail in Melbourne is much quicker though.


Where Melbourne's system _is_ unique because of at-grade crossings is at the tram squares located at Glenhuntly, Kooyong, Gardiner and Riversdale, which involve tram lines crossing heavy rail lines at grade. The overhead wiring arrangements are rather complex and require these 4 locations to be manned, so the voltages can be switched from 600V DC to 1500V DC as required.


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## jimmialli (Jun 29, 2006)

What about the hook turn - do other cities have them?


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## SM247 (Dec 5, 2006)

jimmialli said:


> What about the hook turn - do other cities have them?


Adelaide has a hook turn for buses at the intersection of North Tce and King William St to allow buses picking up from kerbside stops to turn right and head off to the north-east and the O-Bahn. I am not sure if this actually predates the reinroduction of trams to this intersection or was added after the extension to City West opened.


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## Justme (Sep 11, 2002)

jimmialli said:


> What about the hook turn - do other cities have them?


Well, technically the hook turn is regarding cars and not trams, so it's not a unique aspect of the Melbourne tram. That aside, Melbourne has the most number of hook turns but there are some intersections in other cities around the world where this does happen.


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## cjb287 (Dec 20, 2008)

jimmialli said:


> Does anyone have an idea when the Domain Tram Interchange in Melbourne will be renovated - it is one of the main interchanges and it looks like it was last updated in the 60's - it blows! Those ones near the Uni look heaps better. I think it would be nice if they could make it look a little like the shrine.


I haven't managed to find any details regarding the upgrade of Domain Interchange on the DoT website however this link (presumably the chosen contractor) outlines the project: http://www.ghd.com.au/aptrixpublishing.nsf/Content/melbournedomain_mr
Construction is due to begin in the *2nd quarter of 2009* so it should have started a while ago. I wouldn't count on anything happening anytime soon.

EDIT: Page has since been deleted indicating that plans have been changed, scrapped or delayed indefinitely.


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## JayBeeke (Jan 29, 2008)

A network that once served a number cities (Bruges, Leuven, Hasselt, Mechelen, Kortrijk...) and much, much more, and possibly the longest streetcar network that ever existed is the SNCV/NMVB "Tramways Vicinaux" in Belgium at *4811 *km in length in 1945. Of that network only about 100 kms remain in service or as heritage lines: the coast line, a few lines in and around Charleroi, Anderlues, Thuin and Lobbes, near the Han caves, and in the valley of the Aisne.

cheers
JJN


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

^^ this was a network of interurban tramways, not comparable to a city network.


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## JayBeeke (Jan 29, 2008)

Correct, for the most part. However, some cities also had local (city) networks served by SNCV. Leuven had 4 lines, Mechelen had 3, and so on. On top of that it also ran inner city lines in cities mostly served by local companies, mostly in Brussels (lines O, W, and so on) but also to a lesser extent in Charleroi, Antwerp and Ghent. 

Needless to say that there have been few countries that had such a dense rail network as Belgium in 1950: the standard gauge train and streetcar networks and narrow gauge vicinal and city networks had a combined length of approx. 10000 kms.

PS: I thought I'd add SNCV to the list to point out the importance of what once was - by far - the world's largest single operator tram/streetcar network. It's pretty funny to read things like "The Silesian Interurban was once one of the world's largest networks at 250 km in length". That's peanuts 

cheers
JJN


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## Ivanski (Feb 24, 2008)

Sofia railroads network










-orange line with red points : metro
-yellow line with orange points : LRT (project)
-orange line: existing tram routes
-green: upcoming tram routes
-black/white: train railroads










Tram transport in Sofia has started in 1901, and now the city has quite a large tram system with 18 lines and about 300kms of rails with 165 stations/stops. More used is the 1,009 mm narrow gauge as only a few lines operate on 1,435 mm. Unfortunately big part of our network now has bumpy rails and crappy tram cars  Municipality announced buying of 25 new low floor trams and some renovated second hand units.


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## Martin_R2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Just for fun,... to show you how it all works.

From an article:
_"Gothenburg has the *largest tram network in Europe*. It is Sweden's second-largest city and is located at the mouth of the Göta River on the west coast of southern Sweden. The tram network has been regularly developed/upgraded as there is no metro system in operation."_
Source: http://www.urbantransport-technology.com/projects/gothenburg/

On Wikipedia:
_"The 80 km of track — making the Gothenburg tram the *largest tram network in Scandinavia* — is used by around 200 trams as of 2006[update], which serve twelve day-time and five night-time lines with a combined length of 190 km."_
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothenburg_tram


So what have you learned from this? Do NOT trust a single source. Do not even trust two or three sources. The best way is to find out for yourself by research, measurings and so on.

That Gothemburg would have the largest tram network in Europe is a JOKE! Gothemburgs public transport is a joke itself! *lol* ...Internationally measured of course.
I have not done any excessive research in this, but largest tram network in Scandinavia, could maybe be right, nothing more. Depending on how you measure then of course.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Basel_CH said:


> The people don`t use the same tram numbers. Each tram number is an independent one. There is a political history between the two tram companies, but they have independent lines, and there is no subtraction necessary. I update the list, like it reflects the facts, if you don`t agree, come to Basel to visit the place or read the mentioned website (link) in detal.


You're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you. I told you why you can't just add those numbers. The website you linked gives you plenty of hints why you can't add it up. Yet, you still do it. Maybe you just grow up and learn a few things before you bother us again with your self-inflated numbers.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

flierfy said:


> You're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you. I told you why you can't just add those numbers. The website you linked gives you plenty of hints why you can't add it up. Yet, you still do it. Maybe you just grow up and learn a few things before you bother us again with your self-inflated numbers.


Admittedly this does make counting quite difficult in a number of places with more than a single operator of the rail system. I wonder how they count ridership on the Tokyo Subway system between the two companies - TOEI and Tokyo Metro given that one has to pass through a transit gate between operators? Is this counted as one ride when one passes through a transit gate or is it counted as a new ride?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Svartmetall said:


> I wonder how they count ridership on the Tokyo Subway system between the two companies - TOEI and Tokyo Metro given that one has to pass through a transit gate between operators? Is this counted as one ride when one passes through a transit gate or is it counted as a new ride?


It is counted as 2 rides. You need a new ticket when you transfer between operators.


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## Basel_CH (Jan 7, 2006)

Svartmetall said:


> I know Gothenburg operates both under the same branding as part of one network - the key buses even appear on the tram map.


Thats makes the statistic much more difficult than thought. But for me it was clear that some cities listed it can not only be the tram traffic counts but takes all public passengern in the focus.
And from a general approach I think the most tram networks can not count each passenger individually, because you don`t have to stamp your ticket. Mostly there are traffic areas, where a ticket can be used, either on bus or tram, so I would make a bigger question mark on several numbers.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Basel_CH said:


> Thats makes the statistic much more difficult than thought. But for me it was clear that some cities listed it can not only be the tram traffic counts but takes all public passengern in the focus.
> And from a general approach I think the most tram networks can not count each passenger individually, because you don`t have to stamp your ticket. Mostly there are traffic areas, where a ticket can be used, either on bus or tram, so I would make a bigger question mark on several numbers.


No, in Gothenburg and in nearly all other cities, it is easy to measure patronage as each time you board a vehicle or change modes you have to swipe your pass/show your ticket/buy a new ticket again, therefore if you transfer between tram and bus then you have taken two trips - one on tram and one on bus. The patronage quoted in that post that listed Gothenburg's patronage was for _only_ the tram system, not the whole public transport network.



hkskyline said:


> It is counted as 2 rides. You need a new ticket when you transfer between operators.


That is what I thought, the thing that made me ask though is that in Tokyo they do have special "transfer" gates where you can swipe your suica/pasmo and then go to the next line as a transfer. I wondered, therefore, whether these separate gates still recorded a trip or a transfer and thus didn't count it as a full trip.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Svartmetall said:


> Admittedly this does make counting quite difficult in a number of places with more than a single operator of the rail system. I wonder how they count ridership on the Tokyo Subway system between the two companies - TOEI and Tokyo Metro given that one has to pass through a transit gate between operators? Is this counted as one ride when one passes through a transit gate or is it counted as a new ride?


You calculate the numbers of passengers changing between metro lines of different operators by extrapolating of samples. Patronage in open systems are always determined that way. I just doubt that there is anyone willing to carry the expenditure of figuring out the combined patronage for the two metro operators in Tokyo alone. In case of Tokyo it is more likely that a total patronage is submitted including metro services by JR and other mainline operators if at all.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Svartmetall said:


> That is what I thought, the thing that made me ask though is that in Tokyo they do have special "transfer" gates where you can swipe your suica/pasmo and then go to the next line as a transfer. I wondered, therefore, whether these separate gates still recorded a trip or a transfer and thus didn't count it as a full trip.


Correct. You pass through those gates to reach the other operator's train platform. This transfer incurs a higher fare than going on the same operator all the way, although there is a discount for transferring to the other operator : http://www.tokyometro.jp/en/ticket/types/connection/index.html


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## Fallout (Sep 11, 2002)

Have Silesian Tram Lines already been mentioned here?

According to polish wiki, the system has 90 km of single tracks and 111 of double tracks, plus 24 km of tracks in tramyards.


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## satch (Mar 1, 2009)

isaidso said:


> Toronto 305.8 km
> Milan 287.0 km
> Bucharest 286.0 km
> Melbourne 250.0 km
> ...


Gothenburg 161.0 km


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## traveling dude (Apr 16, 2012)

I really wish Moscow would get modern tram cars with modern designs, improve its infrastructure (replace tracks, upgrade stops), become disabled-friendly, and expand!


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

I've just caught up with this thread. My thanks to several of you guys for providing new figures (whether disputed or not!). :cheers:


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## nanar (Apr 12, 2005)

hkskyline said:


> *Hong Kong* has a light rail network that operates in the northwestern suburbs. Per government statistics (http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/transport.pdf), the daily patronage is 430,000 passengers over 36km of track. That translates to 157 million passengers a year.


NO, sorry. For public transit _(and all kinds of transports)_, annual patronage is NEVER daily patronage x 365. 
It's *less* . Even in HK ..


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## saiho (Jun 28, 2009)

nanar said:


> NO, sorry. For public transit _(and all kinds of transports)_, annual patronage is NEVER daily patronage x 365.
> It's *less* . Even in HK ..


^^ counterpoint, yes HKskyline's method it is valid. After digging around at the MTR official patronage site 

http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrelation/patronage.php#search 

The method they use is monthly total/day=daily average.

where you went wrong is annual patronage is NEVER daily *weekday* patronage x 365.

but annual patronage is IS _average_ daily patronage x 365. 
because _average_ daily patronage = annual / 365
if assuming the definition of daily patronage is weekdays and weekends added to the average

simple math. very specific definitions.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Very true. Average "weekday" patronage is more common in North America from what I've seen than the rest of the world.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Septa has about 50 miles of Urban & Suburban Trolley lines , 45 miles are double tracked and 5 miles are single tracked....by 2020 the system will be restored to 70 miles and by 2035 restored and expanded to 104 miles. It currently carries about 120,000 daily passengers up from 80,000 a few years ago. Septa expects ridership to increase with redevelopment along the Urban Trolley system in West Philly and some Suburban development.


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## nanar (Apr 12, 2005)

saiho said:


> ^^ counterpoint, yes HKskyline's method it is valid. After digging around at the MTR official patronage site
> 
> http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrelation/patronage.php#search
> 
> The method they use is *monthly total/day*=daily average.


Look at the numbers of MTR lines :

june 2012 : 113,953 / 4,033 = 28, 255 days (not 30)
may 2012 : 118,293 / 4,003 = 29,551 days (not 31)
april 2012 : 107,769 / 3,968 = 27,159 days (not 30)
march 2012 : 119,956 / 4,034 = 29,73 days (not 31)
Febr 2012 : 112,824 / 4,049 = 27,864 days (not 29)
Janu 2012 : 114,748 / 4,076 = 28,152 days (not 31) 

So, it can't be 365 days (or 366 in year 2012). It's less. Even in HK

Generaly, the Transports Authorities give a week-day patronage, 
and more_ (in France)_, not on mondays (lot of stores are closed), not on wednesday (schools are closed), not on saturday (clerk officers don't work but some go shopping)...
not during ferial times, not during summer times (at less in Europe : actually, *half of the population* of my city / Lyon/ gets holidays elsewhere),

_(The knowledge of weekday patronage - and MORE, Peak Hours patronage - is important to know how many vehicules - trains, bus, ... are needed)_

So - at less in Europe - annual patronage = circa 250 weekday patronage. 
The Transport Authorities rarely count precisely all the days, during the whole year : It's needs lot of people and systems to count, and it would be very expensive to do that everyday. So they just count some days in the year, then used statistics tools to get the annual results.

And so, you CAN'T do exact comparisons, even with oficial data, because there is not a worldwide way to count (and I don't speak about Wikipedia data   )


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

nanar said:


> Look at the numbers of MTR lines :
> 
> june 2012 : 113,953 / 4,033 = 28, 255 days (not 30)
> may 2012 : 118,293 / 4,003 = 29,551 days (not 31)
> ...


Well, the government source provided the figure as daily patronage, not weekday daily patronage.

From the MTR's 2011 annual report, the *total* light rail patronage was 161 million.

http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrelation/2011frpt_e/E109.pdf

The government source I quoted likely used 2010 figures. From the MTR's 2010 annual report, the *total* light rail patronage was 154 million.

http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrelation/2010frpt_e/E118.pdf

Guess my estimate was not too far off multiplying by 365.


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## saiho (Jun 28, 2009)

nanar said:


> Look at the numbers of MTR lines :
> 
> june 2012 : 113,953 / 4,033 = 28, 255 days (not 30)
> may 2012 : 118,293 / 4,003 = 29,551 days (not 31)
> ...


Well MTR fully stated on the chart its subway lines are in avg. weekday as opposed to daily avg. on it's other modes. We are talking about the LRT portion which is in daily avg. 
airport express
june 2012 : 1020/34 = 30
may 2012 : 1063/34.3 = ~31
etc.
I assume that it is because the MTR's LRT, airport express, etc. is less affected by commuter spikes so daily avg. is more applicable. Also note that its not that off the highest deviation is 3 days. Based on accuracy its:

(| theoretical-actual |/theoretical)*100

so is *at most* 9% (Janu 2012) off and at least 4% (Febr 2012) off. So its off which everyone knows it will be but its off by not much as this is HK. the MTR is profitable on its rail operations for a reason




nanar said:


> So - at less in Europe - annual patronage = circa 250 weekday patronage.
> The Transport Authorities rarely count precisely all the days, during the whole year : It's needs lot of people and systems to count, and it would be very expensive to do that everyday. So they just count some days in the year, then used statistics tools to get the annual results.


well the MTR's fare collection system is entirely computerized with a majority using the octopus smartcard and the rest uses vending machines. Considering the info is right there and you can pinpoint the exact number with no rounding on an exact month it seems the MTR does put some system resources to count and given the level of automation it should be fairly routine. If it was generated by by stats software or methods then it would be rounded because of digits of uncertainty. That being said it can't be exactly that number and I doubt its counting system perfect but I think given the set up it should be pretty darn close. 



nanar said:


> And so, you CAN'T do exact comparisons, even with oficial data, because there is not a worldwide way to count (and I don't speak about Wikipedia data   )


I think that’s the reason for this whole thread, to find a standard way to rank tram cities though like largest city, etc. there is a lot of estimating. I think HKskylines stat is valid and quite close to the real usage even while you get extrapolations and even eyeballing in the other patronage stats of tram systems in the US, Europe, etc.


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## Highcliff (May 4, 2006)

people
can anybody answer an off-topic question?
alstom citadis 402 is 43.7m length...is this the longest vehicle or is there any longer vehicle?








http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/max-402-city-tramway/664720


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

^^



> The city transport company of Budapest has ordered 40 Combino Supra Budapest NF 12B units. *The six-module trams (three units of two carbody sections) are 53.99 meters long, a world record for passenger trams (only exceeded by the 59.4 m CarGoTram of Dresden)*. They have been nicknamed óriáshernyó (meaning 'giant caterpillar').





> The tram length can be anywhere from two sections (18 meters) to eight (72 meters).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avenio









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Combino_Supra_2036_in_Budapest.JPG


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

How about Dallas DART?

It is now the largest LRT system in the US with 125km of route {and expansion continues} and 23 million passengers a year. The ridership levels are still poor considering the length of the system but considering the system is only 20 years old and Dallas had no rail network at all before DART started, the expansion and growth of the system has been stellar.


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## NiGhtPiSH (May 14, 2009)

How about Sofia, Bulgaria? 

In 2009 the total trackage in use was 168,4 km (single track). Including 5,1 km mixed gauge 1009/1435 mm. This doesn't include 29,6 km service tracks. The total length of the trackage has been shrinking since 2002 due to overlapping with the new subway system. But there are plans and funding to restore and reconnect the abandoned line to Darvenitsa district and recovering some 8,6 km of single track. The line was closed between the Russian Embassy and the loop in Darvenitsa in 2004 with the start of the construction of the second phase of the subway expansion.

Two days ago the line to Hladilnika was reopened after nearly 3 years of being closed during the construction of the metro, that being said the system grew back some 2,8 km of track.

Here is a scheme of the system as of June 2012 including the Metro.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

As the author of that original statistics list I should point out that it only addresses systems moving more than 100 million p.a. There are of course many systems with patronage less than this. I have a lot of those figures myself but of course there is a lot of "filling in" to do below the 100 mill mark.

Using patronage figures to compare is a rough art because criteria and methodology are not necessarily consistent between cities. But my intention is doing a list this way is to indicate (relatively) the amount of real work a tram system does. The usual "world's largest" count by track/route kms doesn't give a true picture. Melbourne may have the longest route/track figure but Prague and Budapest for instance shift twice the load.

World's most effective tram systems might be a better way of putting it.


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## SAPik1989 (Feb 20, 2010)

Hello, I introduce the bigest tram system in Poland (total system length):
Silesian Interurbans (Katowice,Bytom and others city) -336 km, number of lines - 25
Cracow - 334 km, number of lines - 28
Łódź - 291 km, number of lines - 19
Warsaw - 276 km, number of lines - 24
Wrocław - 258 km, number of lines - 22
Poznań - 214 km, number of lines - 21


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Are those data take into account the superposition of the lines? They seem like they're just a sum of lines lenght with shared tracks counted several times


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## Yardmaster (Jun 1, 2004)

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Are those data take into account the superposition of the lines? They seem like they're just a sum of lines lenght with shared tracks counted several times


Could well be so. i'll take this up shortly.


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## vfG (Mar 11, 2008)

Lyon : 

Tramway : 5 lines / 61 km / 57millions passengers / year


























Current extensions : 

T1 : + 2,3km
T3 (express tramway) : +1km for the future stadium
T4 : +2,3km 
T5 : +2km

(new lines could be planned in the east of Lyon)

Tram Train (west Lyon) : 2 lines more than 20km / 3 lines and 55km once complete


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## vfG (Mar 11, 2008)

Montpellier Tramway, the most excentric !!!!

4 lines / 56km / in the future : 6 lines and close to 100km


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

*Paris*
64.5km _(23km and a new line opened in the end 2012)_
5 lines (T1, T2, T3a, T3b, T4)
114 million passengers in 2011 

There are four lines curently under in construction (T5, T6, T7, T8) and 40.2km of tracks.
Paris tram network toward 2020


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## Mornnb (Dec 26, 2010)

Sydney used to have the worlds biggest tram network. Unfortunately it was torn out in the 60s to make way for cars and buses, and they have been long missed and regretted ever since.  At it's peak in 1945 there was 293km of route track and 405 million passenger trips a year. 
There are currently efforts to restore some of the network, Melbourne fortunately decided to keep theirs.
Here are some historic photos.









http://tdu.to/137549.msg









http://mydarlingdarlinghurst.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/darlinghurst-blog-history-books-trams.html









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6949872012/in/[email protected]/









http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=43166&start=0









http://tdu.to/108670.msg



Here there are today.

Glebe Tram Shed 02 by hallojin, on Flickr

But there is a plan to put them down George Street again, which government has already committed to. Here's a render.








http://www.australiandesignreview.com/news/27121-hassell-to-design-sydney-light-rail


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

I suspect not many people knew Sydney's tram footprint was far larger than Melbourne. Nevertheless, they have a great tram museum south of the city that is well worth a visit.

http://www.sydneytramwaymuseum.com.au/


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## mrjun18 (Dec 22, 2009)

Here is the current streetcar/tram map in Toronto. The streetcar/tram lines are in red.

http://www.urbanrail.net/am/toro/tram/toronto-tram-map.png


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

The map's a bit on the large side..


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

mrjun18 said:


> Here is the current streetcar/tram map in Toronto. The streetcar/tram lines are in red.
> 
> http://www.urbanrail.net/am/toro/tram/toronto-tram-map.png


#1. Don't link massive images to the forum.

#2. You must, must credit links. Robert works hard to make all his images and keep his website running. At least link to it properly rather than just taking his maps without crediting him.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

Melbourne's new E-Class trams have started to arrive. They're ok, nothing special like some of the new trams in France and Belgium.

I'll credit the photos (don't want to get told off by Svarty.... :lol

Final livery








http://www.yarratrams.com.au/media/86494/eclass_700x419.jpg









http://www.yarratrams.com.au/media/54013/eclass_500x334.jpg









http://www.yarratrams.com.au/media/88040/img_2789.jpg









http://www.yarratrams.com.au/media/87948/eclass2.jpg









http://www.vicsig.net/trams/photos/20110824-dng-etram-int-bm1-wheelchair.jpg









http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2836/9297108414_c72647bc48_c.jpg

To be honest, I prefer them without the Yarra Trams green livery painted all over them. And I can't stand the advertising they post all over them.









http://images.theage.com.au/2013/07/01/4534757/TRAMS-620x349.jpg


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

I have updated my list of major world tram statistics from new input from some 2012 annual reports. Any feedback is most welcome.



> World tram/light rail systems moving over 100 million passengers per annum:
> 
> Figures in order are for: no. of passenger boardings per annum, passenger kilometres/vehicle kilometres/place kilometres (assuming fully-loaded vehicles), route (NOT track) kilometres. Also shown where available for relative comparison are no. of passenger boardings per annum for the city’s metro system and for its total public transport (PT). For city population figures see qualifying note at end of list.
> 
> ...


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## SurfRail (Oct 16, 2012)

Melbourne's PT total is around 70-80 million short - metropolitan rail and bus combined should be 330-340 million depending on which fin year you use.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

SurfRail said:


> Melbourne's PT total is around 70-80 million short - metropolitan rail and bus combined should be 330-340 million depending on which fin year you use.


Yes you're quite correct thank you. I updated the tram figure without updating the total - 536 milliom.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Where is Paris?

*Paris*
82.3 km _Two lines, 17,8km opened in 2013_
7 lines (T1, T2, T3a, T3b, T4, T5, T7)
114 million passengers in 2012

While the ridership has stagnated in 2012, the number of passengers has risen in 2013.
The tram network has almost doubled in size since the end of 2012 and two new line will open in 2014 (T6 and T8).

Unilike many other city, the tram network of Paris is located in the periphery, mostly in suburbs.
Most lines are not connected, there are only three transfer stations between tram lines.

Network by 2020, the sections in construction or planned are dotted.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

Minato ku said:


> Where is Paris?


Yes I know Paris could be there but what is the figure after subtracting Translohr (lines T5, T6?)?


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

75.7 km and 6 lines.
The T5 wasn't open in 2012, so it is not included in the ridership data.

Anyway I don't see why we should exclude Translohr, it is more a tram than a bus.
Translohr can't run without rail.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

Thank you.


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Minato ku said:


> Where is Paris?


I think Milan is also missing

Unfortunately ATM (Milan transportation authority) doesn't provide the tram network passengers data, or at least I couldn't find 'em

They just provide the whole network data (metro+tram+trolleybus+bus)


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Actually on these nice maps of Milan network I found out some figures. Daily passengers on so called 'metrotranvie' (actually tramways with most of the route segregated) and the rest of the tram network.
To be honest there is not many difference between the first and the second ones.

Anyway it's 109.830 pass./day + 177.570 pass./day = 287.400 pass./day

That means 104.901.000 passengers per year




meteoforumitalia said:


> NUCLEO URBANO (dimensioni originali: http://imageshack.com/a/img812/51/bjxj.jpg):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are the data based on CityRailways website maps http://www.cityrailways.it/geomap/ but I cant' tell which is their source


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

I know about Milan. I have to check it out a bit more. Sometimes daily patronage figures don't necessarily add up to annual simply by multiplying by 365. In some cities these figures are weekday.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

> Anyway I don't see why we should exclude Translohr


Because it is not tram, it is Translohr.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

historyworks said:


> I have updated my list of major world tram statistics from new input from some 2012 annual reports. Any feedback is most welcome.


For Moscow it is not the greater area, it is the city itself. Greater area is much bigger.


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## AlekseyVT (Dec 21, 2009)

The population of Moscow city (within its current administrative borders) is 12.1 million residents, not 10.5 million. Greater area is much bigger (about 15.5 million residents).


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## Gros Matou (Feb 9, 2014)

Silly_Walks said:


> Because it is not tram, it is Translohr.


The Translohr is a tram. The only difference with a "standard" tram is that traction is provided by rubber tyres. 

It cannot be considered as a bus because :
- It has no steering control, it is rail guided on its entire length and do not require license plate and it is not subjet to the same road rules as buses;
- Like a standard tram, power is provided by a single wire catenary : The return of the electric current done via the guiding rail. Trolleybusses require two wires because of the lack of rails;
- Like a standard tram, it needs much narrower lanes than buses, thanks to the guiding rail.
- Like a standard tram, because it is guided, it can be much longer than a bus (even a double articulated bus). Longest translohr trainsets can be up to 46 meters long (6 cars);
- Like a standard tram, it is bi-derectional : trainsets have a cab at each end;
- Like a standard tram, trainsets can be coupled;

Saying the Translohr cannot be considered as a tram because it has rubber tyres is like saying that Line 14 of the Paris metro cannot be considered as a metro because it is rubber tyred, for example. However, both are rail guided transit systems that serve the same purpose of their respective steel wheeled equivalents.


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

AlekseyVT said:


> The population of Moscow city (within its current administrative borders) is 12.1 million residents, not 10.5 million. Greater area is much bigger (about 15.5 million residents).


Many Europeans think that administratively Moscow is something a little bigger than just the center and all around are just suburbs and satellite cities. That's not correct.

But the way, if I'm right, tram lines exist only within Moscow administrative borders. As of its greater area, there are no tram lines beyond the borders, are there?


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Gros Matou said:


> The Translohr is a tram. The only difference with a "standard" tram is that traction is provided by rubber tyres.



Which makes it not a tram, but a Translohr.


"A cat is a dog, because the only difference is one barks and the other meows, they both bite and scratch!".

No, a cat is a cat.
A Translohr is a Translohr.
In fact, the Translohr could best be described as a guided trolley bus... or a Frankenstein's monster.

Your comparison with metro makes no sense, as what constitutes a metro depends more heavily on things like grade separation, frequency, capacity, etc.


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## Gros Matou (Feb 9, 2014)

Silly_Walks said:


> Which makes it not a tram, but a Translohr.
> 
> 
> "A cat is a dog, because the only difference is one barks and the other meows, they both bite and scratch!".
> ...


Translohr is a corporative name. It's like saying "Kleenex" instead of paper tissue.

The goal of a Translohr tram is the same as a steel wheeled tram. Both are right rail transit and share the same characteristics (capacity, grade separation possibilities, operation, train coupling), except for the materials used for the wheels and the number of rails used.

The Translohr may look weird, but it is operated like a tram, and should be considered as a tram.
Just like a monorail operating like a metro is part of a metro network (Sao Paulo, Kuala Lumpur).
Or a monorail operating like a high speed train would be part of a high speed rail network.


Bombardier's TVR, on the other hand, is really a guided trolley bus. The vehicle can operate without central rail as the operator has steering control, and thus requires a licence plate and is subject to standard road regulations, unlike trams (steel wheeled and Translohr) and is much more limitated than Translohr. 
Also, the TVR is limited in length and cannot operate in multiple units like a tram (Translohr or steel wheeled tram) and thus has a much lower capacity than Translohr or any orther form of light rail transit for that matter.


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

^^
I agree with you that Translohr is a tram.

But I think using it in addition to a traditional tram web is a mistake (I like more traditional tram even for new tram webs, anyway) because you can't integrate 'em in the web.
On Translohr tracks you can just use Translohr, on traditional tram tracks you can just use traditional trams.
In that way even using traditional tram lines with different gauge is a mistake

Ok, Paris lines are mainly separated and do not form a true web, but with the extensions planned they will and the branches of Translohr remain out of a possible 'interaction' with the rest of the lines

And there is another problem with translohr on managing the web.
As you said it's a corporative system, which means that a mantainer has to call on Translohr corporation for all its needings; new vehicles, new tracks, new replacement parts.
Conversely with a traditional tram system you has dozens of suppliers you can call


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Even the average tram lines of Paris are necessarily not compatible with the other.
Porte de Versailles is a transfer station between the T2 and T3a.
But the track of both lines remains unconnected.
T3 trams are too wide for the T2 and T2 trams are too long for the T3. :nuts:

Except for the T3a and T3b which are basically the same line (T3) cut in two after the big extension of December 2012 due of the length, every line has its own rolling stock, its own infrastructures, its own yards...

Add the isolated lines, the Translohr lines, the new tram expresss line (new name of the Tram train lines under in construction or planned using the former Grande Ceinture _big belt_ railway line, all are unconnected) and you will understand that Paris will not have a real interconnected tram network before a very long time.

We will have a big number of km and one of the highest ridership in Europe but not a true tramway network web.
The workday ridership has jumped from 400,000 in 2011 to 700,000 today.
We had 114 million passengers in 2011, using the same ratio, this means about 200 million today.
The answer with the 2013 and 2014 data.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

Minato ku said:


> We will have a big number of km and one of the highest ridership in Europe but not a true tramway network web.
> The workday ridership has jumped from 400,000 in 2011 to 700,000 today.
> We had 114 million passengers in 2011, using the same ratio, this means about 200 million today.
> The answer with the 2013 and 2014 data.


When you have an official updated annual ridership figure I would be grateful to hear about it thank you. Unfortunately weekday figures are often not weekly averages and cannot simply be multiplied by 365. It's a trap I have to watch out for in compiling these figures. It's the annual figure I need.

Last time I reopened this thread there was an argument about population figures. This time it is an argument about Translohr. I wonder what I will get next time. :lol:


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Yes I know, 400,000 multiplied by 365 doesn't make 114 million and 700,000 mutiplied by 365 doesn't make 200 million. 
I even wrote workday to notify that it was not just the average daily ridership (not including weekends and holidays).
Because I have no data, I wrote 'the answer with the ridership of 2013 and 2014'.
So keep the last number we have, the ridership of 2012.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

Thanks. Yes I understood that you mean workday.


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## Frank H (Mar 22, 2010)

Leipzig should surely be on the list of top 20 largest tram networks.

I've seen these figures given for the two large Sachsen cities:

Dresden: 144 million passengers per year, 134.2km network

Leipzig: 134.2 million passengers per year, 148.3km network

The network kms are from Schwandl's Tram Atlas Deutschland.

The passenger numbers are from a Youtube video, and are not up-to-date, and may be inaccurate. But in any case, figures for Leipzig and Dresden are probably comparable.

That area of Germany must be a paradise for tram lovers. Not only Dresden and Leipzig, but also Halle. All with extensive tram networks, with many different types of trams.

And each system with a different track gauge - Halle 1000 mm, Dresden 1450 mm, Leipzig 1458 mm - none with standard gauge!


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

Thank you Frank H. I'll check them out. I think I did check them when I first did this table but of course now I'm reviewing. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

historyworks said:


> When you have an official updated annual ridership figure I would be grateful to hear about it thank you.


The figure of 2013 have been published for Paris tram.
*190 million passengers in 2013*, an increase of 65.9% compared with 2012.

Note that the figure of 2014 will likely be higher. T5 opened in August 2013 and T7 in November 2013, so these two lines didn't make the whole year of 2013.
Two new lines (T6 and T8) will open at the end of 2014 (december) but this will not make a great difference on the 2014 ridership data, we will have to wait for the data of 2015.


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