# What draws people downtown?



## Cloudship (Jun 8, 2005)

This is related mostly to the U.S./N.A., but I am looking for input from everyone.

What draws people to the city center? In the US, many 2nd and 3rd tier cities have down towns that are busy during the working day, but quickly become deserted at night. And if business starts to fall off, they quickly become depressed areas. 

If you had a rather deserted downtown area, what would you want to see come in that would draw people in again, and also inspire other businesses to open up and draw more people, especially during off hours?


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

For me, although this is more for English cities, is night life and work - although sometimes shopping, but the Trafford Centre (shopping mall) is better for that!


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## NickABQ (Jun 6, 2007)

This is a complicated question...

The number one way to get people into downtowns and have successful businesses is residents!!

The most vibrant and vital downtowns are the ones that have a high concentration of people living there. Generally, residents drive most demand for long-term businesses, especially during "off-hours". 

Neoliberal strategies such as the development of stadia, convention centers, performing arts spaces and shopping centers have a wide range of mixed success. There are examples where these work really well, and others where they do little to draw in activity. There are also examples where this type of strategy fails completely, more often than not when coupled with poor visioning and inefficient city government. 

Some American cities have realized the value of creating living space downtown as a revitalization strategy, and more importantly, the value of having a mix of incomes and housing types. 

Singular housing-type and income development strategies can spell disaster.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

There's no one magic thing that makes a downtown desirable; a number of qualities have to be present. Above all, it needs to be safe and inviting. If these areas are designed for cars over people its going to be a tough sell. You need wide sidewalks; everything needs to be walkable. High density is imperative. If everything is spread out, it doesn't make for a good pedestrian experience. It helps if beautification of these areas is taken seriously: trees, benches, art work, nice lighting, etc. . 

Downtowns need lots of amenities like shops, restaurants, cafes, banks, etc. at street level. It doesn't work if you box them all up inside a downtown mall. A critical mass of these things needs to be reached for downtown to become a compelling destination.

A city also needs good public transit or at the very least places for people to park. Add entertainment options like theatre, cinema, opera, sports, and downtown becomes a huge magnet for people seeking some excitement. Over time people will not only visit downtown, but want to live there too. Some downtowns become so compelling that most young people choose to live there when they move out.

I'm not too familiar with US cities, but most Canadian cities seem to have regulations and plans in place that create vibrant, busy, and growing downtowns. Even small cities like Halifax and Victoria have great downtowns. The newer the city, the more obstacles to vibrant downtowns seem to exist: Windsor, Oshawa, and Mississauga come to mind. They have a lot of work ahead of them to catch up to other Canadian cities. It will take many years, but even these auto centric places will develop vibrant downtowns eventually.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

poshbakerloo said:


> For me, although this is more for English cities, is night life and work - although sometimes shopping, but the Trafford Centre (shopping mall) is better for that!


If we are talking Manchester I would much rather spend a day shopping in the city centre than in the Trafford Centre. Much more interesting and varied.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Urban centres have to be sufficiently safe, very walkable, publicly well connected, diverse, offering offices, shopping streets and apartments, not just for the rich but with a sufficient mix of incomes. A nice amount of parks is helping a lot as well. 

If a an urban centre has all of that it should work out fine.


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## aaabbbccc (Mar 8, 2009)

Slartibartfas said:


> Urban centres have to be sufficiently safe, very walkable, publicly well connected, diverse, offering offices, shopping streets and apartments, not just for the rich but with a sufficient mix of incomes. A nice amount of parks is helping a lot as well.
> 
> If a an urban centre has all of that it should work out fine.


Toronto is an example ?


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## Cloudship (Jun 8, 2005)

So how do you get people and businesses to move downtown? That's where I see a lot of American cities struggle - they have empty shops and apartments because no one wants to be there. That then makes the streets unfriendly. A vicious circle begins.

I think in Europe and Asia there is enough shortage of space that people move to the city simply for availability reasons. In the US, where there is still room to grow, it is easier to do that outside the center. And in some ways I think it might be a little too easy for people to get into and out of the city center in the US, so people can easily work there during the day and drive home at night.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

by day - safety, walkability, entertainment, cafe society, a place to chill out aswell as to enjoy yourself, an array of options other than working 
and shopping.

by night - safety, walkability, entertainment, cafe society, a place to chill out aswell as to enjoy yourself, an array of options other than scoring 
and partying.


Your aim is a place like Cairo (when it's not in a civil war), the busiest city Ive ever seen so late, consistently every night and morning of the week 
- very safe, and full of strolling families, couples, partiers, workers and businesses well into the early hours of dawn. When I went there I was very 
impressed at how vivacious it all was ' night life' that's pluralistic. Much the same in Morocco too:

http://dds-pictures.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/nightlife-in-cairo.html







































































Fez - kids and families in a local square










Another Middle Eastern city famed for its nightlife, Beirut, where you can do your astronomy class, night fishing, swimming, daily workout, 
cafes, food etc without hitting the large array of drinking and clubbing establishments that's also there if you want:
















www.dailystar.com.lb, www.arabaswaq.com

Across the Mediterranean they also have a tradition of putting on your Sunday best and going for a stroll after dinner, where you'll probably bump 
into friends and family when congregating in the town/ village square

the passegiata, Italy















www.where-to-go-in-italy.com, https://a2.muscache.com


Sarajevo









www.wieninternational.at








www.wieninternational.at


These places are helped alot by the hot, dry weather. Other places like Singapore and generally SE Asia are the same, and benefit from a surge in 
night activities as the heat of the day dies down and night markets flower:

small town Melaka, Malaysia








www.malacca.ws


but even non-tropical places like Seoul and Shanghai, even in the depths of winter have all their businesses open at night, drawing in huge crowds also:











In short - first get rid of the crime, or the idea that crime only manifests itself more at night. If youre lucky just by getting sheer numbers of the 
people on the street might be enough to dilute the market for crime away. Secondly put in the incentive to go downtown after hours - keep
businesses open (not just drinking or dancing stops) with relaxed legislation that will draw a more rounded crowd rather than just a specific slice of
society - it helps greatly if you make it kiddy friendly/ attractions even into the early hours, and if your weather is warm. ONce you get the kids on
board, everyone's game. -And lots of well lit, attractive places. Night markets are a good spur to get them in.

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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

It will take time, but basically what you need to do is set up the place, and wait for the cultural change. It's an operation that needs incentives, frankly Id have to say it would need to be a monetary one to start it off (such as shopping/ markets).

You could have loads of nightlife, but if it's only drinking it's going to keep the centre busy to an extent but also drive away alot more. UK would be a good example, loads of options for parting with your cash for booze and food, with burgeoning night time populations, but also painfully susceptible to new generations bored/ too lazy for all that (read: the rise of social media and hook-up apps), and now seeing the centres slowly emptying as they choose to stay home. If it was more well rounded the social spectrum it wouldnt be so sensitive to lessened footfall, and could work to attract another demographic more.


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

It also helps when a city has nice weather, lots of cities get really cold at night

I personally love wandering around warm places at night, but find cold ones rather unpleasant


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## weava (Sep 8, 2007)

a typical downtown in the US usually has a bar district(especially in cities with colleges), and most cities place their arenas and convention centers downtown. Having historic theaters in downtowns tend to draw events and concerts downtown. Being that parking is an issue in many downtowns, people won't pay for parking for normal shopping, but people will pay for parking for big events like concerts or sports. A big problem with downtowns is they cater to the office crowd so many of the eateries aren't open at night or weekends.


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## Eric Offereins (Jan 1, 2004)

jobs, nightlife, meeting people, all sorts of amenities.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

weava said:


> a typical downtown in the US usually has a bar district(especially in cities with colleges), and most cities place their arenas and convention centers downtown. Having historic theaters in downtowns tend to draw events and concerts downtown. Being that parking is an issue in many downtowns, people won't pay for parking for normal shopping, but people will pay for parking for big events like concerts or sports. A big problem with downtowns is they cater to the office crowd so many of the eateries aren't open at night or weekends.


A good strategy for those cities with an intact "bar street" downtown would be to build a solid number of apartments or maybe even dormatories, attractive and affordable for students and efficiently link downtown with the campus, preferably along some major city axis with some frequent public transportation (preferably light rail as thats also "cool" among the young crowd)

And then wait 20 years and downtown will be the place to be.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Cloudship said:


> I think in Europe and Asia there is enough shortage of space that people move to the city simply for availability reasons. In the US, where there is still room to grow, it is easier to do that outside the center. And in some ways I think it might be a little too easy for people to get into and out of the city center in the US, so people can easily work there during the day and drive home at night.


I seriously doubt that. In most European cities living space in the periphery of cities, in the suburbs or somewhere in the middle of nowhere is cheaper than living in the urban heart. Nonetheless, the urban hearts are growing fast again. This is clearly demand driven growth not supply driven.


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

Jonesy55 said:


> If we are talking Manchester I would much rather spend a day shopping in the city centre than in the Trafford Centre. Much more interesting and varied.


The city centre is more varied, but if you just wanna go 'shopping' and not wandering around dodgy shops etc then the Trafford Centre is much better.


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## CNB30 (Jun 4, 2012)

-Nightlife
-Restaurants
-Retail
-Architecture (quality of)
- Historic sites
-Jobs
-The ease of ability of which to get there (is it in walking distance? How reliable is the transit)


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## Cloudship (Jun 8, 2005)

So it is a chicken or the egg sort of thing then? You don't have enough people downtown to get business like restaurants and retail to open up; therefor no one moves downtown and you get lots of empty spaces, causing more people to abandon the place. Jobs become 9-5, the place becomes desolate at night and people actively avoid it.

Outside of a collection of bars and clubs, which tend to draw in crowds that many other people avoid, is there some kind of business that you could get to locate there that would draw in enough customers by itself to start the whole process going?


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

You can simply start building a PT system that uses DT as its central hub. Everything else follows if developments around stations have to follow walkable mixed development standards


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

Cloudship said:


> So it is a chicken or the egg sort of thing then? You don't have enough people downtown to get business like restaurants and retail to open up; therefor no one moves downtown and you get lots of empty spaces, causing more people to abandon the place. Jobs become 9-5, the place becomes desolate at night and people actively avoid it.
> 
> Outside of a collection of bars and clubs, which tend to draw in crowds that many other people avoid, is there some kind of business that you could get to locate there that would draw in enough customers by itself to start the whole process going?


Ultimately any neighborhood or subset of a community needs several things to develop 24/7 live/work/play appeal:

- Destinations/Attractions. For people to want to go somewhere there needs be be something there to serve as the main draw. Parks, beach fronts, tourist attractions, etc. Something that is an open, public draw around which the community can celebrate and encourages people to come from all around.

- Good schools. Somehow, someway you will need schools of enough quality to get middle-class families into the picture. Almost any urban neighborhood can suffice for singles and retirees based on design appeal alone, but in order to satisfy every element of society you need to accommodate families, and that means access to good schools.

- Sense of safety. Real or perceived, people won't come unless they feel safe.

- Contextually sensitive development. This can come through sound planning or through strong public sentiment, but the best places exhibit coordinated development patterns that complement existing forms and contribute to social fabric. A great museum could kill an urban community, for example, if designed like a strip mall with acres of parking. Quality design adds to existing assets in the area, rather than detracting.

- Economic prosperity. The bars, shops and other amenities we're all wanting come if/when the local economy is feeding household incomes. Many a beautiful city have waned for lack of disposable incomes to keep people flocking to the stores.

- A lure for young adults. This can come from strong presence in one job niche or strong arts and music scene or other some sort, but you need an extra impetus for the 18-30 crowd to congregate in your area.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

If you having actual normal people living there due to affordable housing, everything else should follow because of the demand they create.


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## NickABQ (Jun 6, 2007)

Cloudship said:


> So it is a chicken or the egg sort of thing then? You don't have enough people downtown to get business like restaurants and retail to open up; therefor no one moves downtown and you get lots of empty spaces, causing more people to abandon the place. Jobs become 9-5, the place becomes desolate at night and people actively avoid it.
> 
> Outside of a collection of bars and clubs, which tend to draw in crowds that many other people avoid, is there some kind of business that you could get to locate there that would draw in enough customers by itself to start the whole process going?


In some ways yes it is a chicken or egg type question. People have given lots of good strategies in their replies, such as safety, housing, entertainment, transit etc etc. 

I think what's coming out of this discussion is that successful downtowns come as a result of several development strategies that are implemented within a similar timeframe...and for that timeframe to be long. 

*Singular development strategies don't work in revitalizing downtowns in the way that you are describing. 

Time is needed, the most successful downtowns have a long history of commerce and residence. *

BUT...you keep asking about a specific business, and it sounds like you aren't getting the answer you want. So I'll take a crack.

Critical mass of people is essential. By this I mean bringing lots of people into the city center. 

Here is one *HYPOTHETICAL* business oriented strategy that *MAY* work in *SOME* cities based on their context. 

1-Draw a really large corporate tenant, that is willing to develop one or more inner city plots to house a headquarters or service center.

2-This corporate tenant with tens of thousands of workers will have longer hours and staggered shifts, extending the workday outside of a limited 9-5.

3- Due to demand from these workers, some basic services, such as salons, small groceries and restaurants will appear, maybe within the development itself. 

4- A relatively small, intrepid group of people will be interested in living close to this tenant space (their jobs) and sacrifice service availability for convenience to work. 

5- As the number of residents grows, new essential development such as full service groceries, specialty shops and daily-needs services will appear with the right developmental climate.

6-This in turn draws more residents and with them, agitation for good schools, continued policing, substantial healthcare services yada yada. 

:blahblah:


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Even if Metro Manila has vibrant suburbs, the city centre is where everything happen from economy, culture, politics, entertainment, trade, etc.

I would be normal for me to drive all the way to Makati and spend my whole afternoon there.


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## El_Greco (Apr 1, 2005)

alexandru.mircea said:


> If you having actual normal people living there due to affordable housing, everything else should follow because of the demand they create.


Too bad most city centres these days are becoming/have become ghettoes for the rich. Which means they are largely sterile affairs that lost a lot of their 'interestingness' and character.


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## TheGoodNews (Dec 5, 2013)

It doesn't hurt to *art-up *the downtown areas, too.


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## Aaronj09 (Jan 7, 2009)

poshbakerloo said:


> The city centre is more varied, but if you just wanna go 'shopping' and not wandering around dodgy shops etc then the Trafford Centre is much better.


Well, sure, if you _just_ want to shop, the Trafford Centre is the place to go, but if you want to shop in a nice urban environment, along with other things like eating at a restaurant or just relaxing in a nice square or park, then Manchester city centre is better.

Shopping, eating out and clubbing are the biggest draws here.


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## SydneyCity (Nov 14, 2010)

In Sydney, the largest thing drawing people to the CBD is employment, as around 500,000 people work in the CBD. Other than employment, Sydneysiders visit the CBD for shopping, dining, entertainment (nightclubs, bars, cinemas etc) as well as for special events (eg New Year's Eve, Christmas, Chinese New Year, ANZAC day etc).


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## Dahlis (Aug 29, 2008)

Everything! In a proper city downtown is the place to be.


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