# THE NETHERLANDS | High Speed Rail



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

*Betuweroute Opens:*

_source: welcomeurope.com_

*New priority section of the trans-European transport network completed: the Betuweroute starts operating between the Netherlands and Germany*

On 16 June 2007 about 160 km of dedicated rail freight line will start moving freights between the port of Rotterdam and Germany at a speed of 120 km/h. Through this new railroad, an average of 160 trains per day is expected to cross the Dutch-German border, carrying around 37 million tons of freight a year.
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_source: railway-technology.com_

*Infrastructure*

The 160km line includes five tunnels with a total length of 18km and 130 bridges and viaducts with a total length of 12km. Major tunnels include the 3km Botlek rail tunnel, which was bored using the earth pressure balance method, the 8km Sophia Rail Tunnel, which uses the hydroshield method, and the 2.7km Pannerdensch Canal Tunnel. All tunnels on the Betuweroute can accommodate double-stack trains.

Significantly, the line has overhead wires energised at 25kV AC even though the Kijfhoek end remains with Dutch standard 1.5kV DC. The German end is electrified at 15kV AC. There will be four transformer stations, and a booster power house every 10km to provide consistent supply.
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*Map* (click)


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*Stats:*
Length: 160km
Construction Start: 3 June 1997
Opening: 16 June 2007
Costs: 4.7 Billion Euro
Electrification: 25kV 50Hz
Signaling System: ETCS level 2 (Alstom)
Exploitation: Keyrail

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*Further reading:*
http://en.betuweroute.nl/home?setlanguage=en
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betuweroute
http://www.railwaypeople.com/rail-projects/betuweroute-freight-line-netherlands-35.html


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## skytrax (Nov 12, 2006)

great news! so Netherlands has now two main hyghspeeds line.


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## sweek (Jan 30, 2006)

It's not really a high speed line; it's a freight-only line. Although, for freight trains, the speeds they will be getting here will be very high.


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## RzgR Spijkenisse (May 16, 2007)

They haven't got a high speed line so far. The high speed line from Amsterdam to the South (Rotterdam, Antwerp, Brussels) is still being tested.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

Can anyone give an update on HSL Zuid please? I'm affraid my Dutch isn't good enough to read this thread http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=456531 hno:


Specifically I'd like to know

1) Where things are at with the testing?
2) Have the ETCS issues been sorted out?
3) When is the projected start of service for HSA trains?
4) When is the projected start of service for Thalys?
5) What is being said regarding the possible direct Eurostar services?
6) Any other HSL ideas being discussed in the Netherlands

Thanks.


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## sweek (Jan 30, 2006)

I can't answer all your questions, but the answer to 2) is definitely no. Nothing has been sorted out, and no one really knows when trains will be able to actually ride on the line. 3) The ordered HSA trains that are being constructed by AnsaloBreda are delayed and no one really knows when they will arrive.
4) Thalys hasn't built ETCS into their trains yet. I think this should be done within a year.
5) This is a possibility, but all the other problems will have to be solved first. Eurostar would also require isolated platforms and customs faclities.
6) The Zuiderzeelijn from Amsterdam to Groningen and on to Hamburg/Bremen has been cancelled, but people do keep suggesting it. The tracks from Amsterdam Eastwards to the Rhine area have partly been quadrupled and are capable of handling 200 km/h. The rest of the line may get the same treatment.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

The services that were planned to start on 9 December 2007 are delayed because of:
1. Testing and certification of ETCS level 2, it was recently updated from the 2.2.2 to the 2.3.0 version. Because it was updated at the last moment all the test that had been were with the 2.2.2 version and should be done again. These are the only infrastructure test that need to be done, the other test are only to see if the new trains actually work properly on the line. 

2. Cleaning up dust in the "Groene Hart Tunnel", because of testing the tunnel was completely covered in dust that was sucked in by the trains.

3. Approval and testing of the Class 186 locomotives build by Bombardier. These haven't been approved yet, but that's hopefully just a matter of time. Then they have to start test first before they can enter the service, these were sceduled to start in October but have been delayed.

For the High Speed Operations there's a target date of 1 October 2008. But because a 26 weeks testing period is needed before starting any commercial services the line should be completely finished on 1 April 2008. The line can be finished by then, but it's a question if the AnsaldoBreda trains are ready or at least 1. If a Thalys set is fitted with the ETCS it can also start testing by then. So hopefully we will see some high speed services next year, but I wouldn't be surprised if it will be delayed even more. 

Most train manufacturers are open about the progress they make with the trains, but not AnsaldoBreda, we don't know anything. And since they already they already got such a good reputations, for example long delays and faulty new trains for Denmark and Norway. I'm scared that when the trains are here the problems won't be over.


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## ziemon (May 17, 2007)

> 3. Approval and testing of the Class 186 locomotives build by Bombardier. These haven't been approved yet, but that's hopefully just a matter of time. Then they have to start test first before they can enter the service, these were sceduled to start in October but have been delayed.


latest news about this: E186 still suffer from differences in signalling systems implemented in Belgium and Holland, next plans are to use the 12 machines in pairs for the classic Benelux services between Amsterdam-border area-Brussels starting on January 15th. However, already a back-up date, February 15th, is mentioned...


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## Fugit (Jul 19, 2005)

Any news from HSL Zuid? Still can't start???


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Nope, there are no given dates anymore when the HSL will start service, because of safety issues.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

The main problem right now is the change from the ETCS on the HSL to the ATB on the rest of the Dutch network. If a train comes of the HSL onto the regular tracks the safety systems won't change automatically without problems. 

Hopefully it's just a software problem but it could also something more difficult to sort out.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

Things seem to have gone quiet lately.


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## vidya (Jun 17, 2008)

may I know what is HSL Zuid?


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

The Dutch high speed line.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Currently, there are problems with the trains, delivery is delayed, it should've been tested in the Czech town of Velim (near Prague), but from what I've heard, the train wasn't even assembled completely, so they're having problems with the testing.

Besides that, there are still problems with the tunnel underneath the "green heart" area, a lot of dust is present there, making the advanced safety systems thinking there's a fire.


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## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

Does this belong to the HSL South?; (If not, sorry)



Rotterdam A said:


>


(These are from Be. Forum)


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## Qaabus (Aug 4, 2006)

Damn Italians.


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## xlchris (Jun 23, 2006)

^Sorry?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^ Yes damn them for making crap trains that don't work. And damn the NS for buying trains in Italy, that was also very stupid. 



Chriszwolle said:


> Besides that, there are still problems with the tunnel underneath the "green heart" area, a lot of dust is present there, making the advanced safety systems thinking there's a fire.


Actually the dust problem in the tunnel seems to be under control, the SNCF allowed their Thalys trains to do test rides on the line. So if all the ERMTS level 2 works and enough Thalys sets are equipped we could at least see them on the line soon. But then the SNCF has to do their job and make it possible.


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## X38 (Jan 23, 2008)

^^It's AnsaldoBreda who builds the trains... And the Dutch Railways (NS) ordered it... Not the Belgians NMBS! :drunk:.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^ Not before December 2009.


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## Mauritz (May 18, 2006)

sergiogiorgini said:


> But isn't that much ado about nothing? There are no high-speed tracks between The Hague and Rotterdam anyway. Unless the The Hague/Brussels service won't stop in Rotterdam, there isn't much to gain except perhaps to create the illusion of a high-speed connection between the two cities.


That is not really the point, it's about a High Speed *service*, not *tracks*.

The distance between the two cities is too small to make use of a high speed track. There are no high speed tracks between Schiphol and Amsterdam either but we are not expecting people to change trains in Schiphol for Amsterdam. Again too small a distance for high speed track to be of any use.

One of the major benefits of this type of high speed transport (over Maglev for instance) is that the last few kilometres can be travelled using existing infrastructure to existing stations. And that is precisely what is being done on routes like Schiphol - Amsterdam or Rotterdam - The Hague.

I can imagine there is a fairly healthy and growing market for a The Hague - Brussels high speed service just among politicians, civil servants, lobbyists etc. Brussels is the seat of the EU and NATO, among others. The Hague is the seat of Dutch Government, the International Criminal Court, the International Court of Justice, the Permanent Court of Arbitration and Europol, among others. I can imagine a high speed service which only stops in Rotterdam and Antwerp would be immensely popular.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Mauritz said:


> I can imagine there is a fairly healthy and growing market for a The Hague - Brussels high speed service just among politicians, civil servants, lobbyists etc. Brussels is the seat of the EU and NATO, among others. The Hague is the seat of Dutch Government, the International Criminal Court, the International Court of Justice, the Permanent Court of Arbitration and Europol, among others. I can imagine a high speed service which only stops in Rotterdam and Antwerp would be immensely popular.


Fyra will service The Hague - Brussels. I expect it to become quite successful indeed, for the reasons you mention.


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## sergiogiorgini (Jun 28, 2009)

Hmm, point taken, although according to almighty Wikipedia, The Hague is only slated for this service:

"8 trains per day: Den Haag Centraal – Rotterdam Centraal – Breda – Noorderkempen – Antwerpen Centraal – Mechelen – Brussels Central – Brussels South."

Which would be that all-in-one compromise line to please The Hague as well as the "beetroot stations" along the route, I suppose. Still, that many stops... Not exactly ideal, is it.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Still a hell of a lot faster than the current link. Today, the Beneluxtrain takes 2 hours and 6 minutes to get from The Hague HS to Brussels Central. With the Fyra, it will take 1 hour and 18 minutes!

But yeah, nobody wants to stop at Noorderkempen  But then, The Hague has fast train and subway connections with Rotterdam Central Station, which you must bear in mind. People from The Hague could easily get on a Thalys or faster Fyra at Rotterdam CS.


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## hoosier (Apr 11, 2007)

Kaasbroodje said:


> Look what I've found


Imagine if all of those lines were true 300 km/h high speed rail.:cheers:


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## Kaasbroodje (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah Noorderkempen has absolutely no use being in the The Hague - Brussels service. That also counts for Mechelen and maybe even for Brussels-Central. Noorderkempen has already an IC connection with Antwerp so why let a highspeedtrain stop in the middle of nowhere?


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Because we insisted on running the thing through Breda. The Belgians wanted to go via Roosendaal. They made the most of it.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

No the best looking train imo...

This Fyra will be the *Dutch/Belgian* highspeed train. From their website:



> The train is a joint venture between the Belgian railway company, NMBS/SNCB, and the Dutch NS Hispeed


The Dutch topicstarter obviously "forgot" to mention that.............


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Do us all a favor, look into who paid what percentage of the construction costs of this thing.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

^^ Doesn't change a thing. 

For example Thalys is a joint French/Belgian/German/Dutch project. Although the capital of the company is held 62% by the SNCF, 28% by the NMBS/SNCB and 10% by the DB. No NS.

The NS officially has only 2 Thalys trains. The statute of the company is Belgian and the HQ is in Brussels. 

But that doens't change the fact that Thalys is a French/Belgian/Dutch project. Same story for this Fyra.

Sad the Dutch want all the credit for this project. A bit childish if you ask me.


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## IcyUrmel (Mar 1, 2006)

Thermo said:


> But that doens't change the fact that *Thalys is a French/Belgian/Dutch project*. Same story for this Fyra.
> 
> Sad the Dutch want all the credit for this project. A bit childish if you ask me.


Says the one who forgot (?) Germany in the sentence before... :|


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

IcyUrmel said:


> Says the one who forgot (?) Germany in the sentence before... :|


Look at my first sentence :|

There's a difference between forgetting something and not telling something (deliberately).


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Thermo said:


> ^^ Doesn't change a thing.
> 
> For example Thalys is a joint French/Belgian/German/Dutch project. Although the capital of the company is held 62% by the SNCF, 28% by the NMBS/SNCB and 10% by the DB. No NS.
> 
> ...


No, the reason I urged you to look into that is so we could put up some hard statistics on this page and be done with it. I can just sense another Belgium vs Holland discussion coming and I can't stand those. They're so pointless.


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## Teach (Apr 17, 2009)

> I can just sense another Belgium vs Holland discussion coming and I can't stand those.


Very simple solution in that case: just admit that Thermo is right in Fyra being Dutch-Belgian, not just Dutch, something you know very well, and have it over with.


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## Xoser_barcelona (Jul 15, 2008)

*Frankly...*

I´d be ashamed to admit the train was my country´s at all. I´d blame the italians for it all, they made the ugly mother. Meanwhile, july 2009, a brand-new infrastructure project stretching from Schiphol to Antwerp, and no train in sight yet. Where´s the credit in that?


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

^ Well said.

So when exactly can I ride on a Thalys at 300km/H on this line?


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

They tested the new Fyra on the HSL Zuid. 
Here are some photo's

@ 33Hz : On 13 december :colgate:

UTRECHT - De Thalys, de snelle treinverbinding tussen Amsterdam en Parijs, wordt vanaf 13 december een stukje sneller. 

NS Hispeed heeft donderdag besloten dat de trein vanaf die datum over de hogesnelheidslijn (HSL) kan gaan rijden.

In de praktijk betekent dit dat een ritje van Amsterdam naar Parijs voortaan drie uur en 18 minuten duurt. 

Reistijd

Reizigers zijn in tweeënhalf uur tijd van Rotterdam in Parijs. De reistijd op beide trajecten wordt daarmee dik een half uur verkort.

Vanaf Amsterdam tot Rotterdam rijdt de trein met 160 kilometer per uur in plaats van maximaal 140 kilometer per uur, wat nu het geval is. 

Na Rotterdam wordt de snelheid opgevoerd naar 300 kilometer per uur. Tussen Antwerpen en Brussel wordt ook 160 kilometer per uur gereden.
Bron: nu.nl

Now my best english translation :doh:: 
Utrecht-The Thalys,the fast train conection betwean Amsterdam and Paris,will be shorter from 13th december.

Ns Hispeed has decided that from that date the trains will be running via the HSL (High speed line).

That means that a ride betwean Amsterdam and Paris will be taking 3 hours and 18 minutes.

Traveltime

Travelers from Rotterdam will be in Paris in 2 and a half huors.
That is a timesaving of a half hour.

Betwean Amsterdam and Rotterdam the trains wil be running 160 km/u istead of 140 km/u.

After Rotterdam the speed will be increased to 300 km/u and betwean Antwerp and Brussel the train will run 160 km/u
Source:Nu.nl


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Teach said:


> Very simple solution in that case: just admit that Thermo is right in Fyra being Dutch-Belgian, not just Dutch, something you know very well, and have it over with.


I would but I had/have no idea. I was under impression the Fyra was an NS-KLM project which goes to show you how successful the Dutch propaganda machine really is 

I was aware that the high speed _line_ is a co-project (duh), but the train? That was news to me. I thought you people rode Thalys(!)


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## sergiogiorgini (Jun 28, 2009)

I think I read that NS/KLM ordered 16 "Fyra" V250s, the NMBS 3.


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## mramelet (Oct 17, 2008)

ArthurK said:


> The NS Hispeed website (in Dutch) says Thalys will run high speed (300 km/h) between Rotterdam and Antwerpen starting from december 13th 2009. It looks like the Schiphol-Rotterdam part will initially remain 160 km/h, while it's for me still unclear when that will be upgraded to 300 km/h. I guess that it will be fall 2010, when they will commence the cross-border Fyra-services with 250 km/h.


Yes!!!
Finally!
I take the train in Rotterdam so for me it doesn't matter that it won't be 300 km/h from Amsterdam (and anyway, the new track at 160 will save time from Amsterdam as well).
But I will believe once I will see it. They have already annouced so many times that this would happen. Will the Thalys really be ready this time?
That would be so cool!


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## antovador (Jun 19, 2007)

Nice dutch train look like a fusion between train and american truck.


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## p5archit (Feb 25, 2003)

The train has a similar appearance to this machine:










The Nissan Cube - not necessarily a bad thing mind you. If I can recall correctly, this project has been in the works for well over a decade and for the longest time, only a few people stood in its path - literally. An older woman wouldn't sell her land to the government to allow the rails to be expanded, a decade or so later, it is happening. I guess she died?!


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

No way, the Cube has much better lines and dimensions. And lets be honest if a High Speed train can be compared with a boxy city car there's something quite not right.


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## Jay (Oct 7, 2004)

xlchris said:


> The Fyra trains have a top speed of 250km/h, but the maximum speed on tracks between Amsterdam and Rotterdam is only 160km/h hno:
> !


If you think 160 kph is slow, you should to come to America, see our shit trains, and you will immediately feel better about it.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

Jay said:


> If you think 160 kph is slow, you should to come to America, see our shit trains, and you will immediately feel better about it.



At least in America you get to see some good scenery from your slow-moving train windows.


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## DWNTWN (Oct 1, 2008)

TedStriker said:


> At least in America you get to see some good scenery from your slow-moving train windows.


I wouldn't even go there if I were you. The Netherlands has beautiful picturesque fields and countryside (including miles of reclaimed land, or "polder") which the trains cross back and forth between major cities. I mean, I love our own countryside and our own natural landmarks, but there is no need to doubt that there is scenery that is just as beautiful -or even nicer at times- in other countries.


























_Not my own images by the way, I found these on flickr._


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

DWNTWN said:


> I wouldn't even go there if I were you. The Netherlands has beautiful picturesque fields and countryside (including miles of reclaimed land, or "polder") which the trains cross back and forth between major cities. I mean, I love our own countryside and our own natural landmarks, but there is no need to doubt that there is scenery that is just as beautiful -or even nicer at times- in other countries.
> 
> 
> Blimey, I was just being light hearted!
> ...


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## DWNTWN (Oct 1, 2008)

TedStriker said:


> Blimey, I was just being light hearted!
> 
> Pretty much anywhere in the world offers something nice to see from a train window, so calm down, calm down, as they say in Liverpool.
> 
> (Please, no one now get angry and write a post stating that no one in Liverpool says "calm down, calm down").


I'm sorry Ted, I just have a hard time recognizing sarcasm when it is written :lol:. The sad part is, people here in the United States might actually use that as an argument...


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

So are you an American who is fan of Dutch trains, or a Dutchman living in America?


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## DWNTWN (Oct 1, 2008)

TedStriker said:


> So are you an American who is fan of Dutch trains, or a Dutchman living in America?


I'm an American who is a fan of Dutch trains. I have family there so I visit them every four years or so. Well, I'm a fan of most trains. I love most EMU's, and I wish there were more of them in the States. There's a lot we can learn from the rail infrastructure in Europe, in my opinion. What about yourself?


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

I'm a Brit in Britain who appreciates any kind of railway anywhere. 

What's interesting to me is how railways are going through a renaissance across the globe. 

Common themes in Europe and the Americas (North and South) in particular seem to be the lack of the lack of money to move quickly, problems with planning, and a collective feeling of regret for past decisions which either led to a lack of investment, or the destruction of infrastructure. 

Meanwhile in the Middle East, a brand new rail network is gradually taking shape, nearly 200 years after the world's first line was built in Britain. 

The fact that the USA is planning a network of high speed passenger trains I find amazing.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

^^ Europe isn't in the best of positions there. Railways were embraced here at an early stage which means we're now riding on old tracks with significant limitations. Sharp corners that would derail high speed services, tunnels that won't allow double deckers etc.

It's easier in the Middle East. If you can start from scratch at this point anno 2009, you're cruising.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

I reckon in 50 years time the Middle East will have an impressive mixed traffic system, connecting to Europe, the CIS and to South Asia. 

Do you think this will see the arrival of keffiyeh-wearing train spotters? (Or rail fans if you're in North America).


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Good question, I don't think so. Seems to me most of the train spotters originate from countries with a long history in railways. I'd like to be proven wrong though. 

Not sure about the Middle East traffic system connecting well to Europe. Political climate doesn't seem right.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

I know what you mean. However, political climates can change rapidly in just a few decades. 

Plus the physical rail links with Europe already exist, via Turkey. If the region around Syria, Iran and Iraq becomes more stable (no laughing please) then I perhaps some proper transit freight and passenger services may be set up, as trade increases and people move around more. 

And these may extend into Sauda Arabia, for exmaple, which is busy building several rail routes. 

But for now, this is just the stuff of fantasy of course - I believe that armed guards still travel on trains that go close to the border with Syria and Iraq...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

TedStriker said:


> I know what you mean. However, political climates can change rapidly in just a few decades.
> 
> Plus the physical rail links with Europe already exist, via Turkey. If the region around Syria, Iran and Iraq becomes more stable (no laughing please) then I perhaps some proper transit freight and passenger services may be set up, as trade increases and people move around more.
> 
> ...


It's not that much of a fantasy anymore, folks. Iran has just finished to
build the last stretch of rails that links Europe with India, and on August 14th,
a container service between Istanbul and Islamabad will start running. I do
not know how the'll manage the lake Van ferry crossing - the ferry can't
take more than 6 carriages at a time - but that will really be interesting to
watch. Add the Marmaray project to that, which will allow a dry crossing
underneath the Bosphorus in 2-3 years, and you have your direct Europe
to India connection operational. And as Iran has alrady an operational
connection to Turkmenistan also, this way you can join China, over 
Uzbekistan and Kazakstan. It's taking shape, guys. Shipping companies
might even start worrying.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

There's a thread on Iran's railways by the way, and I've already put the story up about the new container train. 

You're right about Lake Van. Just what are they going to do - go to/fro several times?!


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## Ale Sasso (Aug 10, 2009)

What a nice topic!
I'm an italian and I visit Netherlands just one time.
Wonderfull landscape, excellent rail services and very interesting rolling stock... sadly i'm not so enthusiast about Ansaldobreda ones.
I say that 'couse I'm engineer and I work in the maintenance field: in Italy railway industries still not are able to project a vehicle with the aim to allow its good maintenance.


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## woutero (Jan 14, 2008)

On 7 september the High Speed Rail line between Amsterdam and Rotterdam opened for passengers.

The tracks have been ready (but not in use) for over two years. The delay of operation was mainly caused by problems implementing the European Train Management System (ERTMS – level 2). Another problem was that the trains, ordered from Ansaldo Breda, are not finished yet. So the trains that are now running are rented TRAXX engines with revised intercity coaches, until the V250 trains are delivered. This means that the maximum speed at the line is now only 160km/h. Still this has reduced the travel time between Amsterdam and Rotterdam with 20 minutes (mostly due to a shorter route).

The train runs on existing tracks between Amsterdam Central and Schiphol Airport, but uses the brand new HSL tracks from Schiphol to Rotterdam. After Rotterdam the tracks continue to Antwerp and Brussels, with a connection to the city of Breda. But these tracks remain unused for a couple of months. In december the Thalys train between Amsterdam and Paris will start using these track, shortening the travel time significantly.

Travel,times:
Amsterdam – Rotterdam: 
Old Intercity: 1h03
Current (temporary): 43min
Eventually (when v250 Fyra trains are operational): 36min

Amsterdam – Breda:
Old Intercity: 1h44
Eventually: 59min

Amsterdam – Antwerp:
Old Intercity: 2h
December (Thalys): 1h17
Eventually (v250 Fyra and Thalys): 1h10

Amsterdam – Brussels:
Old Intercity: 2h40
December (Thalys): 1h57
Eventually (V250 Fyra and Thalys): 1h44

Amsterdam – Paris:
Currently (Thalys): 4h11
Eventually: 3h13

Some English language press:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/ns-hispeed-launches-hsl-zuid-services.html


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

Excuses if this has been mentioned before, but do you find it ironic that the V250 trainsets are also known as "_Albatross_"??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albatross_(metaphor)

I think the marketing department messed up on the naming. Kind of like GM trying to sell its "_Nova_" or Mitsubishi its "_Pajero_" vehicles in Spanish speaking countries:lol:


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## Trainviationfanatica (May 28, 2010)

xlchris said:


>


Well ... The train 's grille looks horribly ugly and visible..


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## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

Fyra is going to run thru to Paris or just codeshare?


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## Jay (Oct 7, 2004)

^In that one safety video it looks like it crumples like a tin can, but maybe it was just a mock up.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

cal_t said:


> Fyra is going to run thru to Paris or just codeshare?


Fyra is intended for Amsterdam - Brussel. But for the moment all bets are off whether the V250 actually ever runs...
"Codesharing" btw is not something railways do.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Jay said:


> ^In that one safety video it looks like it crumples like a tin can, but maybe it was just a mock up.


"crumpling like a can" is actually quite good behaviour in a crash...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

K_ said:


> Fyra is intended for Amsterdam - Brussel. But for the moment all bets are off whether the V250 actually ever runs...
> "Codesharing" btw is not something railways do.


They do, actually. If you try to book a flight from Brussels to Paris on klm.com you will get a flight, it'll even have a flight number. However, you'll depart from ZYR which is the Brussels South Railway Station, the aircraft is a TGV.

Fyra will only run on Amsterdam - Brussels, however. No other safety systems than those required will be installed on the train, the same goes for supported voltages. Only 1500, 3000 and 25 kV. Since there's no 15 kV the trains will never run to Germany, for example.


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## Jay (Oct 7, 2004)

K_ said:


> "crumpling like a can" is actually quite good behaviour in a crash...


To a certain extent yea but structural integrity is also important, something that european trains certainly lack.


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## rheintram (Mar 5, 2008)

Slagathor said:


> ^^ Europe isn't in the best of positions there. Railways were embraced here at an early stage which means we're now riding on old tracks with significant limitations. Sharp corners that would derail high speed services, tunnels that won't allow double deckers etc.
> 
> It's easier in the Middle East. If you can start from scratch at this point anno 2009, you're cruising.


I don't know if you are quite right. Take for instance the railway system in Israel. Now of course there was a historic one, mostly built by the Brits and some military railways by the ottomans. But these were destroyed and only from the 50ties on Israel began to slowly develop a new system. So today there is a railway system and it's working well. BUT it only connects today's centers and there are endless discussions, whether some remote places should be connected or not...

In comparison, e.g. Austria. Let's not go into much details, but many kilometers of existing railways have been closed down and given up. Yet there are still some small local railways left, that just witness some sort of renaissance. Of course, nobody would build such a railway anymore today, neither in Europe nor in the Middle East, now that HSR and so on is the name of the game. But some still exist and serve us well. That's a historic advantage. And it applies to most of Europe. 

So long story short: The Middle East is building impressive rail and HSR projects, without many of the disadvantages that our old European system has. No doubt about that. But mostly they are connecting their metro areas and maybe harbours. I doubt that their system, their mesh of railways, will ever be as fine and long as the European one.

About Fyra: I think it's a quite interesting looking train. The design is unique and I think that's good.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I have to see what happens first: Fyra-trains running, or bankrupcy of HSA.

HSA (High Speed Alliance) is the company (90% NS, 10% KLM) which officially has won the concession, and will run the services on the HSL-Zuid. The marketing name used by HSA is NS Hispeed. They have been in financial difficulties before, because of the delays of the HSL-Zuid and the V250 trains.

There has been support from the Dutch government, but that support is being investigated by the EU. In a worst case scenario, HSA has to repay the government, which could eventually lead to HSA toppling over and going bankrupt.

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It would cause severe delays in making good use of the HSL-Zuid for domestic services; but given the current pricing level, the number of passengers and the desperate attempts NS will have to attempt to get people to board the trains, it might actually work out better if HSA would go bankrupt.

It would also open up other possibilities, such as moving the The Hague - Venlo intercity service (1900 series) to HSL-Zuid between Rotterdam and Breda. This is currently not possible as NS Reizigers (NS for Travellers) isn't allowed to use the HSL, and HSA isn't allowed to use the conventional network because of the various concessions for each of them.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> They do, actually. If you try to book a flight from Brussels to Paris on klm.com you will get a flight, it'll even have a flight number. However, you'll depart from ZYR which is the Brussels South Railway Station, the aircraft is a TGV.


I thought the remark referred to codesharing between railways. I understood the question as "will Fyra codeshare with Thalys". This is not something railways in Europe do.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Just a small something I've learnt today: the new railway section that's being laid out between Brussels and Mechelen (so towards Antwerp) will allow for speeds up to 200km/h, but it'll have to slow down to like 140km/h halfway due to the switching points towards Brussels Airport and later on when they leave the median of the E19. So all in all they'll hardly be riding 200km/h, but at least it'll be possible.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## rheintram (Mar 5, 2008)

Code-sharing is unknown in the railway business, except for rail/air cooperation, however, in that case the air code is irrelevant for the railway operation. Trains always have a unique number (or "code" for that matter), even if they are operated by several companies. For example Railjets between Budapest and Munich, via Vienna, are operated first by MÁV Start, then by ÖBB PV and for the last part by DB Bahn. Even though ÖBB owns the trainssets, they are only the responsible operator for the Austrian section. 

It's a little bit different with Open Access trains, e.g. DB-ÖBB-EC to Italy. Again, the trainsets are Austrian, but in Germany DB is the operator. In Austria ÖBB is the operator and in Italy officially a local railway company operates the train for legal reasons, even though it is operated under the DB-ÖBB brand. Nevertheless the train number is always the same.

However, it will be interesting to see what happens in the future, once the railteam alliance will be further developed and the service more integrated. By the way: Will Fyra be integrated into railteam?


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

It already is.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

rheintram said:


> It's a little bit different with Open Access trains, e.g. DB-ÖBB-EC to Italy. Again, the trainsets are Austrian, but in Germany DB is the operator. In Austria ÖBB is the operator and in Italy officially a local railway company operates the train for legal reasons, even though it is operated under the DB-ÖBB brand. Nevertheless the train number is always the same.


It happens quite often that a train gets a different number when it crosses
a border. Look on www.bahn.de for the night train between Bucarest and
Istanbul, for exemple... Sometimes national train numbering schemes are
so incompatible that it is impossible to keep the same train number for
the whole journey. A good example is with numbering schemes like in France,
where trains have odd numbers when travelling towards the capital city and
even numbers in the other direction. If two neighbouring countries both use
such a numbering scheme, there will be, unavoidably, a change of number at the border crossing.


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## rheintram (Mar 5, 2008)

Okay, I wasn't aware of that. It doesn't seem to happen between Austria, Germany and Switzerland though. At least I've never been aware of it.


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## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

I know in 2008 Air France-KLM had plans with Veolia to buy their own HSL-trains at Alstom. Passengers could choose between Paris-Amsterdam, if they would take the train or the plane. This construction with Veolia should had been in service in Januari 2010?


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## Revas (Aug 19, 2006)

Mr_Dru said:


> I know in 2008 Air France-KLM had plans with Veolia to buy their own HSL-trains at Alstom. Passengers could choose between Paris-Amsterdam, if they would take the train or the plane. This construction with Veolia should had been in service in Januari 2010?



It has been cancelled. Now Veolia is entering a partenership with Trenitalia, but does not intend to push up to Amsterdam.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I guess a strategic mistake on the HSL Zuid was to use just "improved" tracks from Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal. They should have built a brand new, mostly underground HSL line right into Amsterdam, and built a brand-new underground trainstation integrated with some of the future subways stations on the "North-South" line in Amsterdam, which is u/c.

Then you could have a more convenient place of arrival in Amsterdam for business users, and also run a faster service all the way. Domestic users could still connect at Schiphol train station.


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## JeroenMostert (Jul 22, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> I guess a strategic mistake on the HSL Zuid was to use just "improved" tracks from Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal. They should have built a brand new, mostly underground HSL line right into Amsterdam, and built a brand-new underground trainstation integrated with some of the future subways stations on the "North-South" line in Amsterdam, which is u/c.


What ?? That is about the only thing that was a logical decision made for the HSL. Coupling the HSL with the all problems that have occured on the "North-South" line would have made both projects even more expensive. 

I doubt the horrible on-time statistics are caused by this conventional part of the route. When I rode the Fyra the train twice slowed to a 10 km/h crawl between Schiphol and Rotterdam.

Mistakes:
* ordering untested Italian trains instead of going with a proven design.
* having it run as separate entity instead of integrating it into the national Intercity network (or with Thalys).
* HSA overbidding on the contract.
* Way to expensive supplement and the ticket/reservation overhead for short distance travel.
* Low train frequency means the speed is not useful yet.
* going with the untested ECTS without any backup system, so that we are still limited to 160 km/h on the Amsterdam-Rotterdam section.
* expensive long tunnel under some empty fields.



Suburbanist said:


> Then you could have a more convenient place of arrival in Amsterdam for business users, and also run a faster service all the way. Domestic users could still connect at Schiphol train station.


I think there are plans to make Amsterdam-Zuid(WTC) the Amsterdam terminal station in the future.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

ArthurK said:


> The market is different in Holland. The potential passengers travel a quite short distance compared to other HSL-lines. I would argue about 95 % of all passengers travel less than 300 kilometers; those people won't need a high speed service like the Thalys; they need an improved domestic intercity service.
> 
> The Netherlands therefore needs high speed lines which are fully integrated in the national intercity railwaysystem. In those circumstances, any stand-alone HSL is doomed to be a failure. The imposed separation between highspeed and intercity is the main reason for the problems with the HSL.


Take the city where I live - Tilburg. Now it takes, from the nearest small station nearby, 1h52 to get to Amsterdam. When the new Fyra services will be in place to Breda, it will take only 1h13 min - and that is because Breda is not the shortest route for me anyway.

For someone who lives in Breda, travel times to Amsterdam will drop from 1h53 to 0h57. Almost one hour. Impressive improvement. Save for college students who travel without paying nothing, everyone else will jump on those faster trains. Ticketing is integrated anyway, you just have to pay a supplement, that can also be integrated in monthly passes.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

You're forgetting one thing: the Dutch are known as cheapskates for a reason. The high supplement is what keeps most people away... people who probably already have an NS pass. The Amsterdam - Rotterdam shuttle is usually empty, despite the fact that you can get cheaper tickets online. 

People would love using the HSL, if it weren't as expensive.


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

Tilburg-Amsterdam Central takes 1h28 by train nowadays, including 13 minutes waiting for the connecting train in 's-Hertogenbosch, which runs every 15 minutes. The long travel time is caused by the non-connection in 's-Hertogenbosch: the intercity leaves 2 minutes before the Tilburg train enters the station, on the other side of the same platform!! I guess this will become a normal cross-plaform connection in the "every 10 minute an IC"-plan, making the regular train as fast as the Fyra will be.

I doubt normal people (excluding students now) from Tilburg will take the Fyra. Why pay twice the normal price for just a few minutes faster, with a reduced frequency (just 2x/hour, normal train 4x/hour)? We're Dutch after all.  And as I said, the travel time between Tilburg and Amsterdam Central could be 1h15 as fast as tomorrow, if the NS just decided to re-schedule the 's-Hertogenbosch-Tilburg train by 2 minutes, which can be easily managed.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

And if the section 's-Hertogenbosch - Amsterdam would be prepared for 160 km/h (and trains would actually go at 160 km/h) the travel time could be reduced as well. I wonder what will be faster: taking a Fyra from Breda, or taking regular intercity trains at 160 km/h.


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## JeroenMostert (Jul 22, 2009)

*2011 before first train V250 is transferred to HSA*



Suburbanist said:


> Does anyone have information on the deliver of new Ansaldo-Breda locos?


Answer to parliamentary questions about HSL Zuid Progress by the Transport Minister Eurlings on 2010-05-12


> AnsaldoBreda heeft de volledige verantwoordelijkheid voor certificering en toelating van de treinen. De complexiteit van certificering in relatie tot een gehele nieuwe infrastructuur met nieuw beveiligingssysteem en een geheel nieuwe trein heeft geleid tot enkele maanden vertraging. HSA heeft mij gemeld dat volgens de huidige planning in 2011 de eerste V250- trein wordt overgedragen aan HSA. Dan wordt ook het ritme van levering van opvolgende treinen bekend. De leasemaatschappij NSFSC is in overleg met AnsaldoBreda om versnelling in de planning te krijgen.





> AnsaldoBreda has full responsibility for certification and approval of the trains. The complexity of certification in relation to a whole new infrastructure with new security system and an entirely new train has led to several months delay. HSA has been reported to me that with the current schedule in 2011 the first train-V250 is transferred to HSA. Then the rhythm of successive supply of trains will be known. The leasing company NSFC is in consultation with AnsaldoBreda to get an acceleration in the schedule


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> And if the section 's-Hertogenbosch - Amsterdam would be prepared for 160 km/h (and trains would actually go at 160 km/h) the travel time could be reduced as well. I wonder what will be faster: taking a Fyra from Breda, or taking regular intercity trains at 160 km/h.





ArthurK said:


> Tilburg-Amsterdam Central takes 1h28 by train nowadays, including 13 minutes waiting for the connecting train in 's-Hertogenbosch, which runs every 15 minutes. The long travel time is caused by the non-connection in 's-Hertogenbosch: the intercity leaves 2 minutes before the Tilburg train enters the station, on the other side of the same platform!! I guess this will become a normal cross-plaform connection in the "every 10 minute an IC"-plan, making the regular train as fast as the Fyra will be.
> 
> I doubt normal people (excluding students now) from Tilburg will take the Fyra. Why pay twice the normal price for just a few minutes faster, with a reduced frequency (just 2x/hour, normal train 4x/hour)? We're Dutch after all.  And as I said, the travel time between Tilburg and Amsterdam Central could be 1h15 as fast as tomorrow, if the NS just decided to re-schedule the 's-Hertogenbosch-Tilburg train by 2 minutes, which can be easily managed.


In the specific case, the reason some of the "stoptrein" from Tilburg arrive slightly later at 's-Hertogenbosch is because half the Tilburg-Den Bosch services are done by trains who then follow to Utrecht as stoptrein, meaning they will have to call at all stations the intercity from Den Bosch to Utrecht (then Amsterdam) bypasses (the other half of Tilburg-Den Bosch services are done by Roosendal-Zwolle intercity services).

The example I cited originally was from my nearby small station (Tilburg Reeshof), hence the extra travel time and the more advantageous route through Breda.

Yet, the HSL can provide a huge capacity relief on the Schiphol-Rotterdam route. It is not only a faster, but far more straight route too. If they expand Fyra operations, they could start running trains on Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam-Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven route. Or they could even ditch the Den Haag-Venlo intercity route for a Amsterdam-Schiphol-Rotterdam- ... - Eindhoven - Venlo route, for instance.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The chance of that happening is unlikely under the current concessions. NS Reizigers has the concession for the main routes, NS Hispeed has the concession for operating the HSL-Zuid and stations which are along that route. Going from Breda to Eindhoven would mean that NS Hispeed would be competing with NS Reizigers, which is not allowed.


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> In the specific case, the reason some of the "stoptrein" from Tilburg arrive slightly later at 's-Hertogenbosch is because half the Tilburg-Den Bosch services are done by trains who then follow to Utrecht as stoptrein, meaning they will have to call at all stations the intercity from Den Bosch to Utrecht (then Amsterdam) bypasses (the other half of Tilburg-Den Bosch services are done by Roosendal-Zwolle intercity services).


That's no problem; the _stoptrain_ could leave shortly after the intercity. A much bigger problem is the track layout, with a level junction north of Den Bosch, just after the Diezebridge, and another level junction south of the city (Vught Junction). Nijmegen-Den Bosch-Tilburg trains need to cross the tracks used by the Utrecht-Den Bosch-Eindhoven trains, making it impossible to leave and arrive at the same time. The problem will be solved (at least partly) by the construction of a fly-over at the Diezebridge Junction and two additional tracks between this junction and Den Bosch, which will start next year.


AlexNL said:


> Going from Breda to Eindhoven would mean that NS Hispeed would be competing with NS Reizigers, which is not allowed.


True. Time to dissolve NS Hispeed or at least re-negotiate the contract with the Ministry of Transportation.


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## Anoobiz (Mar 11, 2010)

*Danish AnsaldoBreda Problems*

In Denmark we also have lots of trouble with AnsaldoBreda. DSB (Danish State Railways) ordered 83 IC4's in December 2000. Only a few of them has entered service.
In English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC4
In Dutch http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSB_IC4


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## abhijeetm29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Hi 
Everyone,
Sorry to post here

But just wish to ask one query,.....

Is it safe to remain at night on Railway stations of Netherlands..

I have early morning train from Amsterdam Centraal at 4 am, so I plan to stay at the railway station.

Is it allowed,. 

thanks-.


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## RzgR Spijkenisse (May 16, 2007)

Take a train to Schiphol Airport, much saver, more to do at night.


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## abhijeetm29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Thanks for the reply.But then I have to return again back to the railway station early in the morning. Are there local conveyence, trams etc. operational at 3-4 Am ...

Also. I wished to know whether it's okay to stay overnight at station,
I mean is it allowed by authorities, and safe


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ A bit off-topic, but here it goes as a general information:

Major Dutch train stations, save for Schiphol train station (which is more an extension of the airport terminal) closes after the last regular trains about 1h30-2h. Then, a natchtrein (nigh train) network operates between Rotterdam-Den Haag HS-Leiden-Schiphol-Amsterdam-Utrecht with daily late-evening services (more cities are served on weekends).

To access the platforms, you usually need to show the guards your ticket for the night train (a regular stamper ticket). Otherwise, you can't just stay roaming in Dutch train station platforms all night, except, of course, for small unstaffed stations.

The only station where you can go anytime is Schiphol Luchthaven Station. There, you just go upstairs and wait in the terminal how much time you want. Guards will not toss you out of the terminal if you are not disturbing anyone and if you are not like laying on the floor or so.


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## abhijeetm29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ A bit off-topic, but here it goes as a general information:
> 
> Major Dutch train stations, save for Schiphol train station (which is more an extension of the airport terminal) closes after the last regular trains about 1h30-2h. Then, a natchtrein (nigh train) network operates between Rotterdam-Den Haag HS-Leiden-Schiphol-Amsterdam-Utrecht with daily late-evening services (more cities are served on weekends).
> 
> ...


Many Many thanks for the information, 
I hope this would help me out in organising my trip for Amsterdam.
:cheers:


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## woutero (Jan 14, 2008)

Maybe we can help a bit more if you give us more info, because it seems a little strange to hang out at the train station at night. It does not seem like a comfortable idea. Would you want to sleep? You could hang out at the platform, but wouldn't it be nicer to hang out in a café or something? You could store your baggage in a locker and be free to roam around town. Lots of things to see and do.

I am not even aware of any signigicant trains leaving Amsterdam at 4AM.

If you want to be warm and comfortable you can also consider staying on a night train. If you buy a return ticket from Amsterdam to Rotterdam. For instance, if you get on a train at 00.45, you will arrive in Rotterdam at 1.59. This train will return to Amsterdam at 2.02 and arrive in Amsterdam at 3.13. So you'd have a safe and comfortable place to sit/nap for 2,5 hrs for €25.

Night buses are operational all night in Amsterdam, so you could hang out in some other part of town as well.


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## woutero (Jan 14, 2008)

Maybe we can help a bit more if you give us more info, because it seems a little strange to hang out at the train station at night. It does not seem like a comfortable idea. Would you want to sleep? You could hang out at the platform, but wouldn't it be nicer to hang out in a café or something? You could store your baggage in a locker and be free to roam around town. Lots of things to see and do.

I am not even aware of any signigicant trains leaving Amsterdam at 4AM.

If you want to be warm and comfortable you can also consider staying on a night train. If you buy a return ticket from Amsterdam to Rotterdam. For instance, if you get on a train at 00.45, you will arrive in Rotterdam at 1.59. This train will return to Amsterdam at 2.02 and arrive in Amsterdam at 3.13. So you'd have a safe and comfortable place to sit/nap for 2,5 hrs for €25.

Night buses are operational all night in Amsterdam, so you could hang out in some other part of town as well.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

woutero said:


> If you want to be warm and comfortable you can also consider staying on a night train. If you buy a return ticket from Amsterdam to Rotterdam. For instance, if you get on a train at 00.45, you will arrive in Rotterdam at 1.59. This train will return to Amsterdam at 2.02 and arrive in Amsterdam at 3.13. So you'd have a safe and comfortable place to sit/nap for 2,5 hrs for €25.


Geez, you can afford a hostel bed for € 25! Or at least, if it is Thursday, Friday or Saturday nights, do it in style and buy a complete ticket Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Eindhoven-Amsterdam. It takes 3h40 the whole circuit.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

Why not stay at a B&B for the night? You don't want to stay at the station believe me. There are maintenance works EVERY night, most of them making a terrible noice.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Guys, back to the HSL: are there any updated forecast for Ansaldo-Breda to deliver their first units to HSA, so they can start earning some money at last?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

As far as I remember the last news was that they wouldn't make any predictions about the schedule, although that could have been about the line and not so much about the trains. There isn't too much info anyway, the Italians won't say anything and the NS are also not to open about the progress. Although they did announce that the current Benelux trains won't be diverted to the HSL any time soon like they had planned for later this year because the Belgian railways don't want it. Now we probably have to wait until the V250 come into service before we can go faster to Antwerp and Brussels by train without using the Thalys. 

But they are testing the trains at high speed on the new line, they might not go perfectly if you can believe the rumours but it's something at least.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

News about the Ansaldo-Breda fiasco over the HSL Zuid trains reached Brazil. They put to tender the Brazil's TAV ("Trem de Alta Velocidade") project, bids due Nov. 16th. Some experts/advisors are already advocating that Ansaldo-Breda be disqualified over the fiasco in Netherlands and Denmark, and sources close to the industry says that Ansaldo-Breda is among the top competitors to place a bid for that project in consortium with some Asian construction companies and a major Brazilian one.

In any case, can't they rent some extra Traxx locos, divert a handful Intercity stock cars and put them to provide a peak-time Breda-Amsterdam service only, at least?


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

At the moment the V250 sets are running at the southern section of the HSL under ERTMS level 2 at full speed. 

Furthermore FYRA trains will run an half hourly service to Breda later this year using HST Prio and TRAXX


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Fyra news: NS Hispeed has geven a proposal to the LOCOV (a committee for public transport and timetables etc) for a 2nd Fyra service starting October 4th. This will be an additional service from Amsterdam to Rotterdam and back, thereby increasing the frequency to a half hour frequency. Service to Breda will not be part of the October 4 service, but it is possible the service will be expanded later as the current Fyra services are running under the 1000 series in the timetable where the new ones would run under the 900 series.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> Fyra news: NS Hispeed has geven a proposal to the LOCOV (a committee for public transport and timetables etc) for a 2nd Fyra service starting October 4th. This will be an additional service from Amsterdam to Rotterdam and back, thereby increasing the frequency to a half hour frequency. Service to Breda will not be part of the October 4 service, but it is possible the service will be expanded later as the current Fyra services are running under the 1000 series in the timetable where the new ones would run under the 900 series.


40 runs/day with extension to Breda would make it more competitive for sure. The time saving from Breda to Amsterdam will be 54 minutes over the traditional route! Let's now see if the thrifty Dutch will pay the high-speed HSA fare supplement (I don't recall the name in Dutch, something like sneltreinen reijzen toeslag, but I'm not sure).


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

In Dutch it's "Fyra toeslag", it's just toeslag but usually it's the name of the train that goes in front of it, like ICE toeslag. It's certainly not called something with Sneltrein, because that is the old name for trains that stop a bit more then Intercity trains. The current direct train from Amsterdam to Breda is the last of those trains and it won't be used anymore when the HSL will be in full operation with the Fyra going to Brussels.

It will be interesting to see if the Dutch want to pay for it. I can imagine that the time saving won't be enough, there should be something more then just old trains with a new look.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

After running Fyra trains for almost a year I think it's becoming more and more clear that the Dutch aren't willing to pay the high supplement which HSA charges. Increasing the frequency might help a little bit, but cutting the supplement price in half might be more effective.

The Breda extension will be interesting to see, as they are currently doing test runs. I wonder how many passengers the Breda - Amsterdam service will get, especially with the even higher supplement. Rumors have it that a single trip supplement for 2nd class will be E 10,60 on top of the normal fare.

Mind you that the Breda - Amsterdam will start with the Traxx and ICRm carriages as the.AnsaldoBreda train sets are still not admitted for passenger travel on the Dutch tracks, let alone the Belgian.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

What I dislike about the whole operation is that NSHispeed (they can't even spell HigHspeed properly) has to pay 168 million a year for running this service, can't pay the premium to the government... and they get away with it by government granting them a 169 million financial injection.

Am I missing something... or do we (the tax payers) have a train running for EURO 500.000 a day and can't use it for free?

Every company not able to pay the premium fare for the use of that line should be banned, fined and excluded to tender at the next round.

It's a shame a company like DB wasn't awarded the contract while they proposed to operate ICE trains on it in competition with NS. And I'm sure if DB would have been the prefered bidder then we would have had hourly trains running to Brussels for a year already.


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

^^ If the Ministry of Transportation hadn't rejected the initial offer by NS (Dutch national railways), we would have had a high speed line fully integrated in our national intercity network. It wasn't NS' choice to start a subsidiary (NS HiSpeed) for the HSL. They were "forced" to do this by the government. That might explain why the Ministry of Transportation is giving a financial injection to NS HiSpeed rather than let them go bankrupt. It's their own fault it has became such a mess. Unfortunately, such financial aid won't solve the problem. 

It's a fundamental problem: the Fyra-services are not attractive enough to justify a big supplement on the (already high) regular ticket price. Even worse, the future crossborder Fyra-service to Antwerp and Brussels is in some way less attractive than the current Intercity-service. That popular Intercity service will be discontinued just to fill the Fyra. How irresponsible can a government be: spending BILLIONS for a new high speed line, with counterproductive results: the crossborder connections become far more expensive and less attractive than the current situation. Not to mention the disimprovements for people living in The Hague, Dordrecht and Roosendaal. Some policymakers at the Ministry of Transportation should be fired instantly because of their incredible incompetence regarding policymaking. :rant:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Maarten Otto said:


> What I dislike about the whole operation is that NSHispeed (they can't even spell HigHspeed properly) has to pay 168 million a year for running this service, can't pay the premium to the government... and they get away with it by government granting them a 169 million financial injection.
> 
> Am I missing something... or do we (the tax payers) have a train running for EURO 500.000 a day and can't use it for free?


I read - or I think I read - on the NRC.next that Fyra occupancy rate has risen from 7% in Dec/2009 to 11% in May/2010.



> Every company not able to pay the premium fare for the use of that line should be banned, fined and excluded to tender at the next round.
> 
> It's a shame a company like DB wasn't awarded the contract while they proposed to operate ICE trains on it in competition with NS. And I'm sure if DB would have been the prefered bidder then we would have had hourly trains running to Brussels for a year already.


The Dutch government rushed to construct and contract the operation of HSL before new European regulation were to enter in force, barring (as they now ban) any such "exclusivity" rights to operate trains in any new HS tracks not tendered on a given date in 2003.



ArthurK said:


> It's a fundamental problem: the Fyra-services are not attractive enough to justify a big supplement on the (already high) regular ticket price. Even worse, the future crossborder Fyra-service to Antwerp and Brussels is in some way less attractive than the current Intercity-service. That popular Intercity service will be discontinued just to fill the Fyra. How irresponsible can a government be: spending BILLIONS for a new high speed line, with counterproductive results: the crossborder connections become far more expensive and less attractive than the current situation. Not to mention the disimprovements for people living in The Hague, Dordrecht and Roosendaal. Some policymakers at the Ministry of Transportation should be fired instantly because of their incredible incompetence regarding policymaking. :rant:


Less attractive? Travelling times from Amsterdam to Bruxelles/Brussel will be reduced by 1h32. I don't think that is going to be any "small" improvement at all. Sure, as it always happen, there are some "losers", in this case, specifically, the riders to/from Roosendal (passengers from Den Haag can easily connect at the new (u/c) Rotterdam Centraal Station and passengers from Dordrecht can connect at Breda. Folks at Roosendal will have to travel to Breda or Antwerpen in local trains, but that is life.

Thalys already slashed - even with not-yet-in-use signaling allowing 300+ kph speeds between Rotterdam and Hoofdorp junction near Schiphol - travel times from Amsterdam to Paris by 1h13, and ridership on Thalys services (more expensive than the semi-crap "Benelux" trains) are risen steadily.

It seems that KLM/Air France Paris-Amsterdam services are already suffering a dent due to increased attractiveness (and much improved punctuality) of Thalys services on the route.

We need to see the bigger picture: the HSL was not (only) about moving people from Rotterdam to Amsterdam.

================

As for the supplement, I think they should test the market better once they have at least 35-40 daily services on the route. They have cheaper monthly supplement passes and so.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Less attractive? Travelling times from Amsterdam to Bruxelles/Brussel will be reduced by 1h32. I don't think that is going to be any "small" improvement at all.


The problem is of course that forcing people to commit to a particular departure, and to reserve seats reduces the value of the improvement somewhat. People are used to be able to go on a day trip to Antwerpen for example, and return when they feel like it, on any convenient departure.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> The problem is of course that forcing people to commit to a particular departure, and to reserve seats reduces the value of the improvement somewhat. People are used to be able to go on a day trip to Antwerpen for example, and return when they feel like it, on any convenient departure.


Well, today we have a situation in which there are two possibilities to travel from Amsterdam to Bruxelles/Brussel:

- *Regular Intercity (Benelux Train)* - 2h54 - € 37,80 - 2nd class (no seat reservation/no predefined service or time)

- *High speed train (Thalys)* - 1h58 - € 25,00 (selected trains only, pre-booking compulsory, sales fare, non-refundable, non-exchangeable); € 38,00 (off-peak trains, pre-booking compulsory, 50% refund, exchangeable until departure + fare difference); € 65 (regular 2nd class fare, pre-booking compulsory, full refund until departure, 50% afterwards, exchangeable)

So you can travel on Thalys paying LESS than travelling on the Intercity. Those Intercity Benelux trains have a lot of demand for shorter routes like Antwerpen-Dordrecht, because for Thalys prices will not change if you are travelling Rotterdam-Brussel, for instance.

By the way, it is strictly forbidden to travel domestically on Thalys. No tickets are sold for, say, Rotterdam-Schiphol on Thalys, whatsoever.

I don't know whether Fyra will have reserved seats or not. Maybe they will have an hybrid model with some carriages exclusive for seat-reserved passengers and others free on first-come basis, like the NS ICE (Amsterdam-Arnhem) or the DB IC (Schiphol-Eschende).

But I know some people are whining about "why don't they run normal trains on this billion euro line"? :lol: I doubt HSA would make any money with the plethora of discount cards, free student travel etc. NS hand out at taxpayer cost. And I think the Fyra trains will be too good, comfort-wise and speed-wise, to be just another train in the network.

Maybe they will change toward a cheaper supplement, like the ICE supplement, that allows passengers to use international ICE services between Amsterdam-Utrecht-Arnhem for extra €2 per trip only.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

^^ Wasn't it a better choice to do as the NMBS does on HSL2 (Leuven-Liège):
* "normal" IC trains at 200 km/h, integrated in the domestic network and without supplements.
* Thalys HST's at 300 km/h, with its own fare schedule


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

It is allowed to travel domestic from Amsterdam region (includes Schiphol) to Rotterdam by Thalys v.v. But you will need to have a seat reservation which can be booked on-line 10 minutes prime to departure. 

Thalys € 21,00
FYRA € 10,50


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## Baron Hirsch (Jan 31, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> Thalys already slashed - even with not-yet-in-use signaling allowing 300+ kph speeds between Rotterdam and Hoofdorp junction near Schiphol - travel times from Amsterdam to Paris by 1h13, and ridership on Thalys services (more expensive than the semi-crap "Benelux" trains) are risen steadily.


In May I was travelling from Mechelen just North of Brussels to Amsterdam. I could have taken a direct train, but I was curious about the HSL, so I decided to change at Antwerpen to the Thalys. The price was double even though I had first checked for tickets several weeks in advance. But not to matter. I would save 20 to 30 minutes on an otherwise 2 1/2 hours trip, wouldn't I? Plus I had a chance to stroll around the magnificent Antwerpen train station and have a coffee there. However, once the time of departure for my Thalys came, it was delayed. The xenophobic station personnel made their announcements only in Dutch, so nobody but the locals could understand it, but another waiting passenger translated the announcement to me as "due to lack of personnel" the Thalys would be late. My friend in Amsterdam was waiting and could not learn how long since in Amsterdam they try to disencourage the habit of picking people up at the station, as they consider such people econmically unexploitable clutter. With a delay of over half an hour my speed advantage was zero, and unlike in Germany there is no on-the-spot compensation. I sent my ticket to Thalys, and now after 3 months I got a letter that they were working on it. 
You might consider this anecdotal, but the Thalys between Amsterdam and Brussels definitely gets a thumbs down from me in speed, price, and service.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Welcome to the club.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

Baron Hirsch said:


> The xenophobic station personnel made their announcements only in Dutch, so nobody but the locals could understand it, but another waiting passenger translated the announcement to me as "due to lack of personnel" the Thalys would be late.


What has xenophobia to do with the languages used in the announcements? hno:


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## Fatfield (Jul 26, 2010)

Baron Hirsch said:


> In May I was travelling from Mechelen just North of Brussels to Amsterdam. I could have taken a direct train, but I was curious about the HSL, so I decided to change at Antwerpen to the Thalys. The price was double even though I had first checked for tickets several weeks in advance. But not to matter. I would save 20 to 30 minutes on an otherwise 2 1/2 hours trip, wouldn't I? Plus I had a chance to stroll around the magnificent Antwerpen train station and have a coffee there. However, once the time of departure for my Thalys came, it was delayed. The xenophobic station personnel made their announcements only in Dutch, so nobody but the locals could understand it, but another waiting passenger translated the announcement to me as "due to lack of personnel" the Thalys would be late. My friend in Amsterdam was waiting and could not learn how long since in Amsterdam they try to disencourage the habit of picking people up at the station, as they consider such people econmically unexploitable clutter. With a delay of over half an hour my speed advantage was zero, and unlike in Germany there is no on-the-spot compensation. I sent my ticket to Thalys, and now after 3 months I got a letter that they were working on it.
> You might consider this anecdotal, but the Thalys between Amsterdam and Brussels definitely gets a thumbs down from me in speed, price, and service.


Were there no departure\arrivals boards? In the bars\cafes in main line stations in Britain they have a TV giving you information as well as the large boards in the main area of the station.


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## Baron Hirsch (Jan 31, 2009)

Fatfield said:


> Were there no departure\arrivals boards? In the bars\cafes in main line stations in Britain they have a TV giving you information as well as the large boards in the main area of the station.


The departure board was updated once to +10 minutes, but then failed to update itself, at some point resumed to add one minute at a time. So it was not possible to comfortably sit in a café while waiting.
I find that for border-crossing trains, especially when travelling between destinations which are frequented by international travelers like Brussels and Amsterdam, should have announcements in more than one language should be common, and they are in many places. In Prague for example, they make announcements in 4 languages when a train from Germany or Austria enters the station (and Thalys, let me praise them there, has set a standard for multilinguality among their staff). I do not understand why the station personnel in Flanders cannot be expected to do the same.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Baron Hirsch said:


> In Prague for example, they make announcements in 4 languages when a train from Germany or Austria enters the station (and Thalys, let me praise them there, has set a standard for multilinguality among their staff). I do not understand why the station personnel in Flanders cannot be expected to do the same.


The problem is not that you can't expect that from station personel in Flanders. The problem is you can't expect this from station personel in Wallonia. The French speakers don't want Flanders to set a precedent they would have to follow, but would rather not.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Train arrival information in The Netherlands is rather precarious. There is no board informing expected arrival times, only departure times. It doesn't help that domestic services are run like a subway system, with no service numbers (codes assigned to each train/direction/route/time).

Benelux trains suffer a lot on that route. Every day they cancel one or two Benelux trains at least. That is another reason we need Fyra running ASAP - though now, as one colleague posted, there is no OFFICIAL expectation that Fyra trains can enter service anytime before 2nd semester 2011, due to delays on AnsaldoBreda.


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## spag85 (Mar 30, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> lack of an underground HS link to downtown Amsterdam, possible with a new station like St. Pancras in the Zuid area, close to alignment of the North-South subway line.


Schiphol-Amsterdam Centraal is 13-15 minutes, Schiphol-Zuid is 7 minutes. Trains travelling at the speed of light wouldn't justify a tunnel here.

And why the connection to North-South subway line instead of Centraal Station (where people actually want to go)? To connect two flawed projects?



Suburbanist said:


> Then, they didn't construct a bypass of Rotterdam for "through" trains.


Rotterdam's size and importance justifies a stop here.

The only good reason for the Dutch HSL would be capacity (and not travel time) - but then we need to run all the trains planned and imho there shouldn't be a "supplement".


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> It begins with the lack of an underground HS link to downtown Amsterdam, possible with a new station like St. Pancras in the Zuid area, close to alignment of the North-South subway line. Sure, it would have cost a couple billion Euros, but that is the price to pay to be at-par with the best cities and have a dedicated HS terminal.





spag85 said:


> Schiphol-Amsterdam Centraal is 13-15 minutes, Schiphol-Zuid is 7 minutes. Trains travelling at the speed of light wouldn't justify a tunnel here.
> And why the connection to North-South subway line instead of Centraal Station (where people actually want to go)? To connect two flawed projects?


It was actually planned by the construction of the _Schiphollijn_ in the 80s: the terminal of the trains from/to Schiphol would be a station under the Museumplein in downtown Amsterdam, with a tunnel to Amsterdam South station under a canal (_Boerenwetering_). There is a small tunnel under the westbound A10 east of South station, build to accomodate this.

But Amsterdam is no Paris or London, and even no Brussels. Those capitals are by far the most important city of their country. Amsterdam is not that important, it's just the _primus inter pares_ (first among equals) in The Netherlands. The city of Amsterdam has a population of just 760.000 people. This has it's effects of the planning of the railway network. Many passengers on the HSL won't have Amsterdam as their destination, while in France almost everyone has Paris as destination. Therefore, you shouldn't build a HS-terminal in downtown Amsterdam, but serve the existing hubs in the national railway network. And fully integrate the HSL-operations in the national network, with a 10-minute frequency throughout the day.


Suburbanist said:


> Then, they didn't construct a bypass of Rotterdam for "through" trains. It will almost oblige trains to call at Rotterdam. They could have opted for a solution like Bologna (IT), building an underground train station just below the regular train station in Rotterdam only for high-speed services. It would cost, but speeds could be increased.


It would require an entirely new HSL through Rotterdam to increase the speed. The HSL now uses the existing Willemspoortunnel through Rotterdam, which doesn't allow an higher speed and is already very busy.


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

I already mentioned earlier, the current faillure of the HSL is caused by the Ministry of Transportation. The Dutch Railways (NS) had a proposal to fully integrate the HSL in the national railway network. This was a map of the plan, called IC Max:









The proposal was rejected by the Minister of Transportation, mrs Netelenbos. An article from newspaper Trouw, november 26th 1999, translated with Google Chrome but with many corrections by me:

"What NS can do, other companies can do too"

The Dutch Railways say their offer on the high speed line (HSL) to Paris has important benefits for cities such as Breda, Tilburg, Eindhoven, Arnhem, Utrecht and Haarlem. The commission who advised minister Netelenbos to reject the bid, suggests that any other carrier can offer the same benefits. And the House of Representatives does not know who to believe.

NS continue to believe it's unbelievable Netelenbos wiped their offer off the table. NS' vision for the HSL can offer more than just a quick, exclusive, international train journey. The major asset in the new Intercity train Max, a silver-blue double-decker train with a maximum speed of 220 km / h on the HSL and 160 km on the existing intercity network. Integration with the intercity network delivers more trains and shorter journey times, according to the NS.

The first Intercity Max must ride in 2004. The railway company has five billion guilders ready for investment: 4.4 billion for new trains and refurbishing the existing Intercity, 300 million to boost the punctuality and 300 million to expand the information and service to travelers.

The journey between Breda and Schiphol, which still takes 92 minutes, lasts only 42 minutes in 2006. A trip from Utrecht to Schiphol takes then 26 minutes - now 40. And Amsterdam - Rotterdam will not be 58, but 29 minutes. 200 trains will ride daily between those two cities. Fewer change of trains, more trains per hour and more connections, that is the promise of NS. If they only get an exclusive license to transport both the HSL route Amsterdam - Paris, and the domestic part from Amsterdam to the border with Belgium.

Those advantages are not that big, says the commission-Scheepbouwer. In the railway proposal, there are only two train services that use both the HSL and the intercity network: the train Eindhoven - Utrecht - Amsterdam - Rotterdam - Eindhoven (2 times per hour) and the train Den Haag - Rotterdam - Breda - Antwerpen - Brussels (1 time per hour). It will save travelers between Eindhoven and Rotterdam a change, just like passengers on the routes Tilburg - Rotterdam and Tilburg - Schiphol. Travellers between The Hague and Breda do not have to change either.

According to Scheepbouwer do the NS not know clear how many extra passengers there will be and what would be the financial impact by driving with HST train further on normal track. The NS are only clear about the costs: 39 million guilders annually extra.

The committee is not convinced of the benefits if the NS whould get the operation of the domestic and international part of the HSL. It's also possible to make agreements on good connections with other carriers, says the committee. That the NS dare to say that the passenger only has to buy one ticket if the NS get the two railway lines, finds the committee strange: the government must enforce anyway that it would be possible to obtain at each station tickets for all trains running in The Netherlands.​
I still get angry at the Dutch Ministry of Transportation when I read this article which was published 11 years ago. :mad2: There was a perfect proposal but they rejected it because they were too incompetent to understand the benefits. After this incredible stupid decision, they made another stupid move by forcing the NS to start a subsidiary for the HSL. It was now absolutely forbidden to integrate the HSL and the existing rail network. This is how it all became that terrible mess... hno: 

I want a parliamentary inquiry regarding the HSL-Zuid. This is just one element which went totally wrong due to incompetence at the Dutch Ministry of Transportation. There is just so much more, like the never ending story with the AnsaldoBreda trainsets which are rubbish and many years delayed for faked reasons.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

Your not the only person who gets angry reading it. What I believe to be the best investment in rail (and I still support they have build HSL-Zuid) turned out to be a financial disaster, to be paid for by the tax payer. Every day the Dutch residents pay 500,000 for this rail franchise. 

There are two solutions to get out of this misery:
- Let HSA go bankrupt
- Run HSA trains on national network under a nasty trick by changing train number/headcode at the final destination of the HSL concession and let the train continue under a train number belonging to NS Reizigers.

For instance: Running from Rotterdam to Amsterdam Zuid (integrated station under the current concession), there change train number, and it becomes a train operated by NS Reizigers. Now let it run via Almere and Lelystad to Zwolle at 200 km'h. FYRA suplements would be valid for the entire journey, Between Schiphol airport and Zwolle people would need to pay a 2,- euro suplement (same terms and conditions as ICE International for domestic travel)

By doing this nasty trick you can still run a part of the MAX network, and the city I live in would gain a much welcomed fast service to Rotterdam and Zwolle.


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## spag85 (Mar 30, 2009)

ArthurK said:


> There was a perfect proposal but they rejected it because they were too incompetent to understand the benefits


ArthurK thank you for the insight! When I said a tunnel wouldn't be justified I didn't imply it wasn't planned 

I totally agree that the only meaning one can give to the Dutch HSL is to include it in the network and use it to achieve larger capacity.

If HSL is at a surcharge it will cost the public more money to install capacity upgrades on conventional lines which might not be needed if some traffic was redirected on the HSL.

But now that the infrastructure is ready (and the trains are crap anyway) don't you think there is a possibility in mid-term to have these through trains (e.g. running further than Amsterdam)? It really can't get much worse than this.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Coccodrillo said:


> On Amsterdam-Rotterdam? :nuts:


On Amsterdam-Paris... if you start accepting a bit less speed here and there, you end with crap services like the German IC Schiphol-Berlin that takes insane 7h30 to complete the trip/



pietje01 said:


> The fat they built a new line is OK, but it was totally unnecessary to build a 300 km/h line between Amsterdam (in fact Schiphol airport) and Rotterdam.
> If it was a (partly upgraded) line of 200-250 km/h it would have been OK and it would have benefited the domestic travel.


One must not forget that the HSL cuts 28% of the length in the Rotterdam-Hoofddorp route. So you don't have only an increased speed but also a reduced distance. Just look at Google Maps and you all can see: the "traditional" route goes through Leiden, Den Haag and Delft.

The route is congested, those three cities rail's ROW are narrow and in some cases it demolishing nearby buildings to construct additional tracks would be insanely expensive, like in Delft or at the Den Haag HS station.

It is a very different situation of a route that you can just improve a signal here, fix a junction there and so. The intersection with the Den Haag Central - Gouda line is a nightmare too, and it is in the middle of the city.

So a brand-new rail was needed, IMO - as much as they need to unclog the node at Amersfoort.

[/QUOTE]



ArthurK said:


> The other big railproject of the last decade is the _Betuweroute_, the dedicated freight railroad from Rotterdam to Germany. Same story: billions more expensive than planned (4.7 billion instead of 2.5), years of delay and still not proper functioning.


The Betuweroute is not working for the solely reason the Germans diverted money on their part of the route to fund other projects. It is the most advanced freight-only rail line in Europe. When the Germans complete what they promised to, freight rail transport to Germany and beyond will be dramatically improved, relieving both nearby highways and the Dordrecht-Best rail line.


> It would require an entirely new HSL through Rotterdam to increase the speed. The HSL now uses the existing Willemspoortunnel through Rotterdam, which doesn't allow an higher speed and is already very busy.


That is what I'm talking about - an underground, angled station for HS services and a 4-km tunnel all the way beyond Rotterdam Zuid.



ArthurK said:


> "What NS can do, other companies can do too"
> After this incredible stupid decision, they made another stupid move by forcing the NS to start a subsidiary for the HSL. It was now absolutely forbidden to integrate the HSL and the existing rail network. This is how it all became that terrible mess... hno:​




These are European regulations. The Ministry and NS took advantage of a loophole, indeed, setting up the HSA after the deadline for the spin-off of operational units for new services but before spin-off was mandatory for all passenger services. 

The Ministry rushed to get another loophole: one that allowed HSA to be given exclusivity over high-speed domestic services, as couple months after HSA was established, such moves became illegal. All new HSR corridors must be opened to competition, on domestic or international routes.​


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

The infrastructure of the HSL Zuid itself may be very good (I don't know, but apparently it is, also considering the route choosen). It's the service that is not.

HSL Zuid should be operated like the new Berne-Olten line, not like Paris-Lyon. And the actual low use give me reason: the Berne-Olten has 6 trains per hour per direction full of passengers from its opening, the HSL Zuid has no more than 2 tphpd, one of which of only 6 coaches with only 10% of occupied seats. It is true that V250 trains are late, and it would be difficult to increase the number of train trips, but this does not justifiy the emptienss of the Fyra services. Here, the problem is the dissuasive price.

It is a pity considering that the rest of Dutch network is similar to the Swiss one, that is, for what I have seen, very good.


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## railzilla (Feb 20, 2010)

The HSl Zuid could also used by more internbational trains. Why are there no trains Zürich-Basel-Strassburg-Luxemburg-Bruxelles-Rotterdam- Amsterdam? Once the had such services. Many Parts of that route are now Highspeed Lines. And given an attractive choice there would be enough travellers be it business or tourist which would use this train. Currently the fastest relation from Zürich to Dordrecht near Rotterdam by train takes 8.5 hours and involves changing station in Paris. So the last four times i had to go there i took the car once and three times a flight ZRH-AMS and then a rental car. The other point is that my company just books the fastest and cheapest way to travel which is usually air. If they built HSL they should try to run as many trains as possible on it.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

railzilla said:


> If they built HSL they should try to run as many trains as possible on it.


Excellent reply. European rules say that long distance services must be profitable. This leads to lines where a single train manage to cover its costs (including the toll of the infrastructure), but the railway itself certainly not (in a reasonable time). I think that a heavily subsided and used infrastructure is far better than a quite subsided but under-utilized one.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Coccodrillo said:


> The infrastructure of the HSL Zuid itself may be very good (I don't know, but apparently it is, also considering the route choosen). It's the service that is not.
> 
> HSL Zuid should be operated like the new Berne-Olten line, not like Paris-Lyon. And the actual low use give me reason: the Berne-Olten has 6 trains per hour per direction full of passengers from its opening, the HSL Zuid has no more than 2 tphpd, one of which of only 6 coaches with only 10% of occupied seats. It is true that V250 trains are late, and it would be difficult to increase the number of train trips, but this does not justifiy the emptienss of the Fyra services. Here, the problem is the dissuasive price.
> 
> It is a pity considering that the rest of Dutch network is similar to the Swiss one, that is, for what I have seen, very good.


This is exactly how it should be used. 

But because of the current operations the NS hasn't been buying rolling stock that can be used on the HSL. If there will be a decision to change it for the good it will take another couple of years to make it actually possible. The current Fyra trains can't be used since they don't have the capacity needed for normal IC services over the HSL. They need to modify the current VIRM double deck EMUs for 25kV and a higher speed or just buy new trains. Something that again cost time and since the project already had so much delays that might be a problem for the decision makers to finally make their 2nd good decision for this project (the first good decision was to construct the line, all decisions that followed had a negative effect on the project).


@Suburbanist, building a new tunnel under Rotterdam is completely insane, it would be another costly mistake. Compared to Brussels or Paris the HSL line actually starts much closer to the station in Rotterdam then in those 2 cities. And there's still the much bigger gap in the HSL line between Antwerp and Brussels where even more minutes can be saved.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Modifying VIRM to run on 25 kV should be possible, the thing which I am not sure about it how VIRM would hold itself on the HSL-Zuid when a Thalys passes by at 285 kph. Perhaps they could use different bogies.

The VIRM trainsets are also known as "bagpipes" (because of the sound coming from the engines in the older train sets) and "rocking boats" (because of how much they sway when passing points or uneven ground), if a Thalys would pass by at such high speed the train would probably sway from left to right...

From what I have understood (but not confirmed!) is that VIRM should basically be prepared for speeds up to 200 kph, but that for economical reasons it's only approved for 160 kph. Which makes sense because nowhere in the Netherlands normal trains reach 200 kph (even thought Amsterdam - Utrecht is prepared for it). I think the necessary ERTMS could be retrofitted onto the VIRM EMU's, since there's a lot of electronics in trains nowadays anyway, I'm guessing that all what's needed is installing ERTMS receptors (beacon readers and GSM-R) and adding the software.

I once e-mailed Bombardier asking about the 1500V/25 kV, if higher top speeds would be possible and whether or not ERTMS would be supported, but they replied that they couldn't give out the information because it's a company secret. Which makes sense, I guess.

Now, about HSA/HSL-Zuid: I think the best answer to the current situation would be to completely dissolve HSA. It would have some serious consequences, but in the end it would be better for everyone. However, it wouldn't mean that we'd get rid of the ugly ducklings because as far as I know, any carrier that takes over that role from HSA would have to acquire and use the HSA trainsets... if those ever get approved, of course.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

It's not so much the company that runs over the HSL-Zuid thar needs to change, it's the concession that is creating all the problems now. The special HSL-Zuid contracts should be dissolved in order for the line to become part of the Hoofdrailnet to make normal services on the line possible. The HSA can then be responsible for the international services to Brussels and they can use the V250 for that. 

It's just that this will have major legal implications, the original competitors and the EU might have problems with the solution. It will definitely be the end of the special status of the line and therefore be subject to the European international competition regulations.

And whether or not the VIRM can be modified for HSL operations is not the question, how much will it costs and does the NS wants to pay for it is the real issue here.


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## spag85 (Mar 30, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> if you start accepting a bit less speed here and there.
> 
> One must not forget that the HSL cuts 28% of the length in the Rotterdam-Hoofddorp route.


That's correct that most of the time reduction comes from the shorter route and not 300 kph vs 200/250 kph. But if your stations are very close to each other (like Rotterdam and Schiphol), you have to accept a bit less speed simply because of acceleration and braking curves.



Suburbanist said:


> The route is congested, those three cities rail's ROW are narrow and in some cases it demolishing nearby buildings to construct additional tracks would be insanely expensive, like in Delft or at the Den Haag HS station.


exactly, that is why a new line made sense as a capacity improvement, but it doesn't as a "premium service".



Suburbanist said:


> That is what I'm talking about - an underground, angled station for HS services and a 4-km tunnel all the way beyond Rotterdam Zuid.


Would such a tunnel bring down overall Brussels-Amsterdam journey times below the next 30 minute multiple? Because if not, then this idea doesn't make sense from a timetabling perspective either -- otherwise just imho bad value for money.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> - The main competitor is the car. The main feature you are competing against is flexibility.


Not on the long distances. The modal share of passenger road traffic between the Randstad and Paris should be smaller than those of air traffic. You gain very little if you beat solely car traffic on this distance.



K_ said:


> - The current best times achieved with the HSL could have been achieved without it. The distance Amsterdam - Brussel is 240 km. The fastest train now takes 1h37. That is an average speed of 150 kph. If the line would have been upgraded so continous running at 200 kph were possible all the way from Amstedam to Brussel timings would have been similar to what has been achieved now.


I very much doubt that. Travel speed on upgraded conventional railway lines hardly exceed 100 km/h. Add to that the longer way of the pre-HSL route. With upgrading and vmax 200 km/h you'll get nowhere near the travel times of high speed services and you can't compete with air travel.


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## spag85 (Mar 30, 2009)

flierfy said:


> With upgrading and vmax 200 km/h you'll get nowhere near the travel times of high speed services and you can't compete with air travel.


Paris-Randstad you compete with air and Thalys travel times are attractive mainly because of the Paris-Brussels HSL. One could argue that travel times were attractive already when the Antwerpen-Schiphol Thalys was running on conventional lines (an extra 40 minutes). Would be nice to see if an extra passenger shift happened or not.

Brussels-Randstad you compete with driving and conventional Intercity - many travellers don't see the point of paying for the Thalys now when the travel time gain is only 40 minutes - but you get a much higher possibility of delay, right now.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The travel time from Antwerp to Brussels by Thalys is 40 minutes, according to the Deutsche Bahn travel planner. The distance is roughly around 45 km (28 mi) which really isn't much. The distance Schiphol - The Hague HS is roughly around the same, while Dutch trains only take 25 minutes (Benelux, no stop at Leiden) to 31 minutes (other intercity services which do stop at Leiden) for the same distance.

To make Thalys more attractive, the Antwerp - Brussels travel time should be reduced which can be done by upgrading lines (allowing for higher top speeds), splitting local and intercity services on the 25 and 27 lines, giving Thalys trains priority over others, etc. It should be possible to do Antwerp - Brussels in the same time as Schiphol - The Hague.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> To make Thalys more attractive, the Antwerp - Brussels travel time should be reduced which can be done by upgrading lines (allowing for higher top speeds), splitting local and intercity services on the 25 and 27 lines, giving Thalys trains priority over others, etc. It should be possible to do Antwerp - Brussels in the same time as Schiphol - The Hague.


The problem currently is mostly the entry of lines 25 and 27 in to Brussels. The Belgian railways really would like to put all the slow trains on line 27 and the fast ones on 25, and to a certain extent they are allready doing that. However the problem is a lot of conflicting movements in the aproaches to Brussel Noord. 
That is being addressed, however. The new line 25N being build between Mechelen and Brussel will give a much faster path in to the Brussels.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

flierfy said:


> Not on the long distances. The modal share of passenger road traffic between the Randstad and Paris should be smaller than those of air traffic. You gain very little if you beat solely car traffic on this distance.


But the Amsterdam - Paris market isn't big enough to justify building a HSL. The most popular destination for Dutchmen south of the Belgian - Dutch border is Antwerpen. The railways ought to concentrate on getting the whole corridor Brussels - Amsterdam running as efficiently as possible. Fast timings on Amsterdam - Paris would have been a still possible.



> I very much doubt that. _Travel speed on upgraded conventional railway lines hardly exceed 100 km/h_.


Travel speeds on non-upgraded conventional railway lines were often allready 140kph and more. On upgraded lines speeds of 220 kph are possible.



> Add to that the longer way of the pre-HSL route. With upgrading and vmax 200 km/h you'll get nowhere near the travel times of high speed services and you can't compete with air travel.


What we have now, with the HSL, is a travel time of 1h55 minutes. As I have pointed out before: The distance is only about 240km via the old line. The new line is a bit shorter about 220 km (but if someone has an exact figure, please correct me).
The average speed of ouar 300 kph train is 115 kph...
I repeat again: If the whole corridor had been upgraded, with four tracks from Leiden all the way to Dordrecht, vMax of 220 kph, and a new line from Antwerpen to Breda, also build to 220kph trip time of under 2 hours on Amsterdam - Brussels would have been possible too. Overal travel times would have been shorter for more passengers though, and it would have cost a lot less.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> The route is congested, those three cities rail's ROW are narrow and in some cases it demolishing nearby buildings to construct additional tracks would be insanely expensive, like in Delft or at the Den Haag HS station.
> 
> It is a very different situation of a route that you can just improve a signal here, fix a junction there and so. The intersection with the Den Haag Central - Gouda line is a nightmare too, and it is in the middle of the city.


The route is being upgraded, with the tunnel under Delft finally being built. That means four tracks all the way from Leiden to Dordrecht. We could have had all that a lot sooner if all the money hadn't been going elsewhere. I don't see however where the "nightmare" is at the intersection with the Den Haag -Gouda line.

In my opinion it would have made a lot more sense to build a railway from Utrecht to Breda, and then on to Antwerpen, and build it as a HSL-Light (220kph), with an upgraded (200 or 200 kph) line via Den Haag and Rotterdam. That way fast services on both Amsterdam - Den Haag - Rotterdam - Antwerpen and beyond, and Amsterdam - Utrecht - Breda - Antwerpen and beyond would have been possible. 



> So a brand-new rail was needed, IMO - as much as they need to unclog the node at Amersfoort.


Unclogging nodes can give you a lot of gains in time and efficiency. Which is why it's better to spend money on that, rather than on 300kph lines that are less than 100 km long...


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## JB Colbert (Jul 23, 2009)

The Ansaldo problems are due to the fact that they haven't a single interface, i.e. the customer, in this case the HSA, but a dozen of interlocutors.
On the paper the customer is HSA but in practice there are NS, SNCB and some others, each of them have own requests and these are different for the different parts.

Other kind of problems are listed below:

The production tools must be conserved for 30 years (how many V250 would be constructed in 2040?).
The standards of the train are not freezed after the signature of the contract.
The national rules, omologation procedures, in minimum details as well, but of wich the absolute respect is required, are different and conflictual, not only as Netherlands vs Belgium but between different boards inside the two nations.
The above procedures were changed on the run.
The two national infrastructure managers, Infabel and Prorail, have different technical and normative characteristics, often in contrast between them, at least incompatible with the request


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

JB Colbert said:


> The Ansaldo problems are due to the fact that they haven't a single interface, i.e. the customer, in this case the HSA, but a dozen of interlocutors.
> On the paper the customer is HSA but in practice there are NS, SNCB and some others, each of them have own requests and these are different for the different parts.
> 
> Other kind of problems are listed below:
> ...


On the other hand Alstom had no problem building TGV sets that met the requirements of all the parties involved. Siemens also seems capable of building trains that can run in Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and France...
So I think the blame for the late delivery of the V250 sets lies mostly with Ansaldo - Breda.


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## JB Colbert (Jul 23, 2009)

@K
I forgot to mention that the tests, by contract, would be executed for the 80% on the belgian network and for the 20% in Netherland, for 7 days per week, for a maximun of 8 hour, during night and day.
Subsequently was imposed that the test had to be executed only on belgiam network; some times later was imposed tests only during the night, subsequently test only in the weekend, 3 nights per week for a maximum of 4 hours and so on.
To meet delivery times AB has decided to send in Belgium other 2 trains for test but Infrabel not allow to use these 2 trains for testing because only 1 train is permitted for test on the network.

When you talk about Alstom or Siemens trains you talk about a product tested years ago and configured; the V250 is a new train and must be tested, if Infrabel or Prorail not allow the tests will be very difficult to respect the delivery timetable.


By the way, the Siemens ICE-T bogies are affected of severe defect that constrain to repair and test them often.
The Alstom Pendolino bought by Trenitalia and classified as ETR600 (ETR610 for Switzerland) had a lot of problems, was a calvary the tests.
As you see even other train constructors have problems.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

JB Colbert said:


> @K
> I forgot to mention that the tests, by contract, would be executed for the 80% on the belgian network and for the 20% in Netherland, for 7 days per week, for a maximun of 8 hour, during night and day.
> Subsequently was imposed that the test had to be executed only on belgiam network; some times later was imposed tests only during the night, subsequently test only in the weekend, 3 nights per week for a maximum of 4 hours and so on.
> To meet delivery times AB has decided to send in Belgium other 2 trains for test but Infrabel not allow to use these 2 trains for testing because only 1 train is permitted for test on the network.


The trains should all have been delivered by 2007, In stead by summer 2008 one half finished train could start doing tests. Looks like the manufacturer has a lot to answer for. I don't see how this could have been the railway's fautl.





> By the way, the Siemens ICE-T bogies are affected of severe defect that constrain to repair and test them often.
> The Alstom Pendolino bought by Trenitalia and classified as ETR600 (ETR610 for Switzerland) had a lot of problems, was a calvary the tests.
> As you see even other train constructors have problems.


The bogies for the ICE-T trains were build by Fiat. The Alstom Pendolino were also build in Italy. I'm starting to see a pattern here...


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## JB Colbert (Jul 23, 2009)

K_ said:


> The trains should all have been delivered by 2007, In stead by summer 2008 one half finished train could start doing tests. Looks like the manufacturer has a lot to answer for. I don't see how this could have been the railway's fautl.


If you don't see is not my fault.



K_ said:


> The bogies for the ICE-T trains were build by Fiat. The Alstom Pendolino were also build in Italy. I'm starting to see a pattern here...



The problems of Pendolino were not on the bogies, moreover the italian Pendolino, built by Fiat Ferroviaria (now Alstom), never had problems with bogies.
What I posted are deed, not suppositions, and I don't want a stupid nationalistic discussion.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

^^ But the statement of AB that they can't build a train if they don't know the version of ETCS is not realistic, the version can always be adapted if the train is fully assembled. If not it's just poor design from AB.

The difficult coöperation from Infrabel or Prorail is something AB had to check before they committed to a delivery schedule. Infrabel and Prorail are not the customers, so it's not their fault that the train has to be modified if a test is not succesful.

AB can't expect that large portions of a network that is in use, be taken out of use so they can test and test and test ...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

JB Colbert said:


> If you don't see is not my fault.


I could say the same thing about you...

Ansaldo Breda had promised to deliver all sets by 2007. In fact however they didn't even have a single finished set by that time. 
Fact is that Ansaldo Breda was extremely late in delivering trainsets to DSB too.

They give all the impression of being a very inept company.


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## JB Colbert (Jul 23, 2009)

K_ said:


> ...
> Ansaldo Breda had promised to deliver all sets by 2007. In fact however they didn't even have a single finished set by that time.
> Fact is that Ansaldo Breda was extremely late in delivering trainsets to DSB too.
> 
> They give all the impression of being a very inept company.


If the customer has changed the rules on the run how can someone respect the delivery timetable?!?:lol:
Even AB claims the respect of the contract.

@pietje01
The time usage of infrastructure was on contract and this was changed on the run too.

Chapter DSB:
DSB's IC3 has a ZF 5-speed mechanical transmission, built by Scandia Randers.
After this DSB choosed to have ZF mechanical transmission 16-speed on IC4; the only one company that has accepted this kind of parameters was AB, probably was an evaluation error.
Infact the biggest problem was put into dialog the four engines with the four transmissions.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

JB Colbert said:


> After this DSB choosed to have ZF mechanical transmission 16-speed on IC4; the only one company that has accepted this kind of parameters was AB, probably was an evaluation error.


Now we're getting somewhere, I think that AB makes a little bit too much evaluation errors and this is giving them a bad name.

The fact that AB just accepted changes 'on the run' implies to me that they were themselves not ready with their production and wanted an excuse to deliver late.

Fact is that the mechanical part of the first set was not ready in time.

If they were in time, they should have produced a working set, without the ETCS and that could have been tested on schedule.


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## JB Colbert (Jul 23, 2009)

pietje01 said:


> Now we're getting somewhere, I think that AB makes a little bit too much evaluation errors and this is giving them a bad name.


Probably yes.



pietje01 said:


> ...
> The fact that AB just accepted changes 'on the run' implies to me that they were themselves not ready with their production and wanted an excuse to deliver late...


It is your supposition.
I didn't read and I don't know which clauses has the contract about withdrawal.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> But the Amsterdam - Paris market isn't big enough to justify building a HSL. The most popular destination for Dutchmen south of the Belgian - Dutch border is Antwerpen. The railways ought to concentrate on getting the whole corridor Brussels - Amsterdam running as efficiently as possible. Fast timings on Amsterdam - Paris would have been a still possible.


It doesn't need to justify it on its own. A high speed line serves many connections. They make it worth building it altogether. A HSL cuts time between Amsterdam and Antwerpen in the same way as it does between any other city along its way. You kill several birds with one stone.



K_ said:


> Travel speeds on non-upgraded conventional railway lines were often allready 140kph and more. On upgraded lines speeds of 220 kph are possible.


I meant average speed when I wrote travel speed. 



K_ said:


> What we have now, with the HSL, is a travel time of 1h55 minutes. As I have pointed out before: The distance is only about 240km via the old line. The new line is a bit shorter about 220 km (but if someone has an exact figure, please correct me).
> The average speed of ouar 300 kph train is 115 kph...


First of all it takes only 1:39 h from Amsterdam to Bruxelles. But the poor average speed are a consequence of the discontinuous nature of HSL Zuid. On the real high speed section of the line between Rotterdam and Antwerpen an average speed of 190 km/h is achieved.



K_ said:


> I repeat again: If the whole corridor had been upgraded, with four tracks from Leiden all the way to Dordrecht, vMax of 220 kph, and a new line from Antwerpen to Breda, also build to 220kph trip time of under 2 hours on Amsterdam - Brussels would have been possible too. Overal travel times would have been shorter for more passengers though, and it would have cost a lot less.


What you propose isn't particular cheap either. A railway line designed for top speeds of 220 km/h is hardly cheaper than on with vmax of 300 km/h in lowlands. You neither save money by quadrupling existing lines through urban areas. And in the end you don't even achieve the time savings of a properly designed HSL.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

(double post due to timeout :-( )


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## JB Colbert (Jul 23, 2009)

---


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

flierfy said:


> It doesn't need to justify it on its own. A high speed line serves many connections. They make it worth building it altogether. A HSL cuts time between Amsterdam and Antwerpen in the same way as it does between any other city along its way. You kill several birds with one stone.


You can indeed "kill several birds with one stone", but to continue the metaphor, the way it's done now a lot of the birds, even easy ones, are getting away. 



> First of all it takes only 1:39 h from Amsterdam to Bruxelles. But the poor average speed are a consequence of the discontinuous nature of HSL Zuid. On the real high speed section of the line between Rotterdam and Antwerpen an average speed of 190 km/h is achieved.


According to the Thalys website it's currently 1h54...
The discontinous nature of the line is indeed the problem. Which is why it wouldn't have needed to be a 300kph line.




> What you propose isn't particular cheap either. A railway line designed for top speeds of 220 km/h is hardly cheaper than on with vmax of 300 km/h in lowlands. You neither save money by quadrupling existing lines through urban areas. And in the end you don't even achieve the time savings of a properly designed HSL.


Well in the end a lot of that is going to be build anyway. And that you can achieve good time savings with incremental increases you see when you compare Germany with France. 
From Switzerland to Belgium I usually am faster via Germany than via France, even though France has more dedicated HSLs, and top speeds are higher.


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## DarkLoki (May 4, 2008)

flierfy said:


> What you propose isn't particular cheap either. A railway line designed for top speeds of 220 km/h is hardly cheaper than on with vmax of 300 km/h in lowlands. You neither save money by quadrupling existing lines through urban areas. And in the end you don't even achieve the time savings of a properly designed HSL.


I don't believe a 220 km/h line is hardly cheaper in our "lowlands". The soil in the area is very bad and the forces exerted by a train running at 300km/h are a lot higher. A smoother alignment needed for going faster also means you have more problems avoiding expensive area's of land (because of buildings for instance) in the highly populated area. The 50km Hanelijn built for 200km/h costs about 900 million while the hsl-zuid costs over 6 billion (is that the right translation for "miljard"?).


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

DarkLoki said:


> I don't believe a 220 km/h line is hardly cheaper in our "lowlands". The soil in the area is very bad and the forces exerted by a train running at 300km/h are a lot higher. A smoother alignment needed for going faster also means you have more problems avoiding expensive area's of land (because of buildings for instance) in the highly populated area. The 50km Hanelijn built for 200km/h costs about 900 million while the hsl-zuid costs over 6 billion (is that the right translation for "miljard"?).


I'm sorry, but you can't just compare construction conditions of a Lelystaad-Zwolle line in Flevoland with the HSL project. In the former, you are actually accounting for... rail construction.

In the latter, the € 6 bln. budget includes a lengthier route (remember: it is HSL all the way to Belgian border), 3 very expensive tunnel bypasses done not by engineering reasons (like presence of buildings) but to protect the environment and abate noise, and the signaling of HSL Zuid is revolutionary, or so I was told.

The € 6 bln. also account for state-of-the-art rolling stock.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I found the following posting on the Dutch website OpeensHadIkHet.nl (Suddenly I had it, which was a marketing phrase used by NS to find new personnel a couple of years ago). I have done my best to translate it to English, but since I am not an expert at technical terms there might be flaws in the translation:


> *Marc-sch wrote on OpeensHadIkHet:*
> 
> The Amsterdam - Breda Traxx-Fyra test runs have been cancelled immediately (this week because of track works between Rotterdam and Dordrecht, but after that until further notice). The EMC related problems that we have seen before around Hoofddorp also cause a problem on the Moerdijk - Breda part of the route. To avoid any risks, several measures are being taken. At present, this is done by limiting the number of trains and the maximum current drawn by each trains, meaning:
> 
> ...


"EMC is the phenomenon that equipment, machinery or other electrical objects produce strong magnetic fields, which interfere with the magnetic fields of other nearby devices and systems. The ATB safety system works with weak magnetic fields, the ATB receptors of the VIRM-1 train sets are affected by this."


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> You can indeed "kill several birds with one stone", but to continue the metaphor, the way it's done now a lot of the birds, even easy ones, are getting away.


And who are these birds that got away?


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

JB Colbert said:


> If the customer has changed the rules on the run how can someone respect the delivery timetable?!?:lol:
> Even AB claims the respect of the contract.
> 
> @pietje01
> The time usage of infrastructure was on contract and this was changed on the run too.


Do we have an AnsaldoBreda employee in the house? 

The testing period was two years LATER than in the contract, so that's not something AB can complain about...

It might be true that SOME specifications were changed, but this doesn't explain why AnsaldoBreda wasn't able to deliver anything at all. AB just didn't had the capacity because the Danish became very frustrated and angry about Ansaldo's continuing unperformance and imposed an ultimatum on AB: deliver the 14 IC4-trainsets ready for commecial operations by the end of the year, or we cancel the entire contract.

We're heading for a same scenario with the V250-trainsets. All trainsets had to be delivered *in 2007*. Now, three years later, *not a single trainset is ready* for commercial operations. And it is very unlikely any trainset will be certified soon. In fact, the pantograph is the only thing certified. Those V250-trainsets are a joke and should be returned to Italy asap. :wave:


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

ArthurK said:


> ...the Danish became very frustrated and angry about Ansaldo's continuing unperformance and imposed an ultimatum on AB: deliver the 14 IC4-trainsets ready for commecial operations by the end of the year, or we cancel the entire contract.


AnsaldoBreda delivered 15 trainsets to the Danish just a couple of weeks before the deadline (somewhere in may 2009 if I remember correctly) expired. However, the trainsets hadn't been approved yet... eventually DSB renegotiated the contract with AnsaldoBreda.

AnsaldoBreda will pay € 300 million back to DSB, and by 2012 all 83 IC4 trains will have been delivered to DSB, along with 23 IC2's. Of course, only time will tell if they are able to meet this deadline: the IC4-project started in 2000...


> We're heading for a same scenario with the V250-trainsets. All trainsets had to be delivered *in 2007*. Now, three years later, *not a single trainset is ready* for commercial operations. And it is very unlikely any trainset will be certified soon. In fact, the pantograph is the only thing certified. Those V250-trainsets are a joke and should be returned to Italy asap. :wave:


I agree with that. I think that the best thing that could happen for anyone is the cancellation of the V250 trains (the ones that have been built already can be disassembled), the dissolving of HSA and a massive restructuring at AB to prevent future failures like the DSB and HSA ones. If not, let AB go bankrupt or bought by Stadler or something.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> I think that the best thing that could happen for anyone is the cancellation of the V250 trains (the ones that have been built already can be disassembled), the dissolving of HSA and a massive restructuring at AB to prevent future failures like the DSB and HSA ones. If not, let AB go bankrupt or bought by Stadler or something.


God forbid! That would only add the delays of the operation of HSL Zuid/HSL-4. The Nederlandse Spoorwegen has no spare VIRM transets to retrofit into these routes, and the 10 V250 are badly needed, with or without delays.

It would take many months to upgrade the VIRMs to run on HSL at ERTMS-2. Nowadays, Thalys services already spend 8 extra minutes because the new HSL between Hoofdorp and Rotterdam has been "degraded" to allow Fyra-Traxx operation with ERTMS-1 and VMax 160 km/h.

Scrapping the V250 would either leave the new HSL idle, or obligate its "downgrade" to 200km/h until new ETCS-2 trains can be bought.

So that would be disaster: a brand new lines where no trains can run, only Thalys.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> Then the next step would say "well, let's just run new 200km/h new Benelux trains to Brussels and that is it, no Fyra anymore" hno:
> 
> If you started running faster (200km/h on new tracks) trains on the HSL Zuid-HSL-4 from Brussel/Bruxelles to Amsterdam, you are essentialy killing any possibility of operating a profitable service there at 300km/h that charges supplement. And the whole project was built under the assumption there would be new, improved, with seat-reserving availability, services running on HSL Zuid (I'm not saying it was the best move, but it was done deal).


So why is Thalys still taking the route from Brussels to liege, they have competition from more regular domestic services at 200 km/h.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> Running all Amsterdam - Rotterdam and beyond services via a high speed line for example.


There are three different routes between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Multiplexing all services on the new line would cut off several cities and towns in West Holland. Which would be quite a daft idea. 



K_ said:


> When the new HSL opened between Bern and Olten all IC's on the Bern Olten route immediately started to use the new line.


All ICs is not all services. Local services calling on intermediate station remained on the old line. That is not what you suggested.


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Can anyone explain precisely what about the contract changed? Is it just the ETRMS spec, (which all manufacturers involved in Europe knew was going to happen and knew they would have to deal with, and besides its just software)?

Or am I missing something?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

An ideal IC network would be (just the HSL Zuid and the old line). 

HSL services.

International:
- Amsterdam - Paris (Thalys) 
- Amsterdam - Brussels (Fyra)
- Den Haag - Brussels (Fyra)

Trains: Thalys and Fyra sets

National:
- Amsterdam - HSL - Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - Eindhoven
- Amsterdam - HSL - Rotterdam - Dordrecht - Zeeland
- Zwolle - Lelystad - Schiphol - HSL - Rotterdam
- Den Haag - Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - Eindhoven - Limburg

trains: Upgraded VIRM sets (160 km/h) and new 200 km/h double deck trains that will replace ICR (and ICM).

Old line services:

- Amsterdam - Haarlem - Den Haag HS - Delft - Rotterdam - Dordrecht 
- Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag Centraal 
- Zwolle - Lelystad - Schiphol - Den Haag Centraal
- Den Haag - Rotterdam - Dordrecht 

trains: VIRM and DDAR

You will get a very good service on both the HSL and the old line without creating to many bottlenecks and only need to the extra infrastructure that's we need anyway like a fly-over in Den Haag between HS and Moerwijk for the trains from Rotterdam to DH Centraal.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

We can expect another fiasco soon:

FS just placed an order of 50 High speed train-sets... guess which manufacture?

_The board met on August 5 to approve the order, which should see a prototype completed within 300 days and entry into service by 2013. _ 

Okay... I have to go to the toilet before I pee in my pans.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...lia-orders-50-high-speed-trains/browse/1.html


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

The new Trenitalia HST will be Bombardier Zefiro built also in AnsaldoBreda plants.

Stadler also will built some trains partly with AnsaldoBreda: the Flirt for some regional companies in northern Italy.



AlexNL said:


> I agree with that. I think that the best thing that could happen for anyone is the cancellation of the V250 trains (the ones that have been built already can be disassembled), the dissolving of HSA and a massive restructuring at AB to prevent future failures like the DSB and HSA ones. If not, let AB go bankrupt or bought by Stadler or something.


I think that AnsaldoBreda will be bought by one of the big companies. Finmeccanica doesn't like very much AnsaldoBreda, and apparently doesn't really want to save it.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

If they are ever to be bought, I hope it is by Stadler and not one of the 'big three' (being Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens) because I think Stadler makes nice trains and knows what customers expect: reliable trains delivered on time. The technical knowledge is there (with AB), what they need most of all is much better project management.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

I just caught a 'Fyra' train between Rotterdam and Amsterdam and I thought it was rubbish. 

No hang on, let me expand a little on that. 

The infrastructure is wonderful, and the journey-time is clearly a better than the norm of before. 

But the actual train carriages strike me as being cheap. Were they cheap? I hope so, as I like the Dutch and don't like to think of their taxes being spent so carelessly.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

^^ The trains currently running the service have been temporarily transfered there from the regular Intercity Service between Amsterdam and Brussels until AnsaldoBreda delivers the high speed trains


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

I see. Excuse my ignorance, and it's quite clear that I've not been reading any of the other posts, so sorry about that. 

But even for a conventional IC service the trains are cheap. And I say this coming as I do from Britain, which has fine selection of cheap and nasty trains to impress the world with. 

While I'm still mentally in the Netherlands, is anyone here familiar with the reconstruction of Rotterdam station? If so, do you also think the construction site might be a little better organised? 

But what really surprised me are the ticket machines on Dutch Railways? Whose decision was it to specify machines that can only accept coins, and not notes? If my VISA card would have worked on the things I wouldn't have minded, but for some reason it didn't so I had to resort to cash. 

So then I had to take my notes to the central booking office area and join a queue for a machine that changed notes into coins. How dumb is that?

How could the country that is home to cycle lanes, coffee shops and gabba not have ticket machines that accept notes.......?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

TedStriker said:


> But even for a conventional IC service the trains are cheap. And I say this coming as I do from Britain, which has fine selection of cheap and nasty trains to impress the world with.


The IC NS stock looks austere and simple, but I don't think they are cheap, just (a little too much) minimalist and built for shorter travels than in other bigger countries.



> While I'm still mentally in the Netherlands, is anyone here familiar with the reconstruction of Rotterdam station? If so, do you also think the construction site might be a little better organised?


Definitively. It will be completely revamped into the most modern rail station in Netherlands. What you see in Rotterdam now is a station being rebuilt with minimal traffic disruption. Rotterdam is living up to this post-War tradition of thinking big, forward and modern.



> But what really surprised me are the ticket machines on Dutch Railways? Whose decision was it to specify machines that can only accept coins, and not notes? If my VISA card would have worked on the things I wouldn't have minded, but for some reason it didn't so I had to resort to cash.
> 
> So then I had to take my notes to the central booking office area and join a queue for a machine that changed notes into coins. How dumb is that?
> 
> How could the country that is home to cycle lanes, coffee shops and gabba not have ticket machines that accept notes.......?


This was done to cut vandalism in machines and discourage ticket buying with cash. Chip cards and debt cards are ubiquitous in Netherlands, and they are widely accept as mean of payment.

I agree, though, that manned stations should have at least one banknote-accepting machine.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

You can always go to a Tickets & Service booth if you are unable to pay on any of the ticket vending machines. However, the T&S employee might add a surcharge of 50 cents, this is done by NS to promote as much passengers as possible to use the machines. Since you're unable to pay at a machine you really should refuse paying any of these surcharges.

If you're unable to buy a ticket at T&S, you could always go to the train and explain your situation to the train guard... however, NS has a policy that whoever rides a train without a valid ticket gets a € 35 fine on top of the regular fare, which can be paid later. The € 35 fine might get waived by Customer Service if there's a valid reason for it (such as, being unable to pay for the ticket).

Dutch trains are rather simple indeed, they just do the job they were made for: getting passengers from A to B. Distances in the Netherlands are small, just like the average journey time: I think that'll be around 45 minutes for a single trip. In countries like Germany, France or the UK, distances are much larger so the trains offer more comfort to be more competitive to plane and car.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

^^


Thanks for your answers and responses people. 

I must say reading through my words from today on this thread I realise I may have come across as a whinger. 

The truth is I've just had a fantastic holiday in Rotterdam and Amsterdam over the last week, and I still want to be in Holland. So as I sat at work today in London pretending I wasn't there, I began feeling sorry for myself and had a little rant.

I didn't really mind the Fyra rolling stock, although I did laugh a little at the coin-only ticket machines - but the real problem was my VISA card, and the Dutch can't be held responsible for that. 

So anyway, goodnight.


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

^^ But you are absolutely right. It IS unbelievable Dutch trainticket machines don't accept banknotes and creditcards (except those at Schiphol Airport). This is especially annoying for tourists, as the Dutch can pay with their debt cards. Another flaw is the lack of information in English, for example when a train has multiple destinations and the car numbers are announced by the intercom. It's not always clear for foreigners (and even some locals) which part of the train is going to their destination.

And those cheap trainsets of Fyra... Well, at least there is something about Fyra that is cheap, as the fare and surcharge are definitely _not_. It's a shame those temporary trains still have to run on this highspeed line, but that's the fault of an unreliable Italian manufacturer who was not able to deliver the new V250-stock within the agreed timeframe. So we're stuck with this situation, at least for another two years.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

As Deutsche Bahn is getting closer to planning ICE trains on the London St. Pancras - Germany route, they're also interested in making a direct service from Amsterdam to London. Trial runs through the Channel Tunnel will start in a couple of weeks. If DB continues with their plans, they can be offering these services just after the 2012 London Olympics. 

I don't think many passengers would ride the Amsterdam - London train, but an ICE from Amsterdam to Brussels without compulsory registration (like Thalys has and is planned for international Fyra journeys as well) would do serious damage to Fyra, I think. I'm not really worried about Thalys as that is a well-established brand (and will still be the only service to Paris for now) but Fyra is new and has had a bad start on just serving Amsterdam - Rotterdam.

Source: Telegraph


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## Koen Acacia (Apr 17, 2007)

TedStriker said:


> Thanks for your answers and responses people.
> 
> I must say reading through my words from today on this thread I realise I may have come across as a whinger.
> 
> ...


Hmm, I didn't read it like that. Both on the machines and on the trains you're absolutely right imo. I also love to read any "outside" comments on our trains, they give some fresh perspective: I never gave those coin-only machines much thought for example but yes, that must be a bloody nuisance, lol!
Nice to hear that you enjoyed yourself btw.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

TedStriker said:


> How could the country that is home to cycle lanes, coffee shops and gabba not have ticket machines that accept notes.......?


There is actually a link between the coffee shops and the fact that ticket machines don't accept notes. 
Basically the people of the Netherlands are to tolerant. That results amongst other things in the government being to soft on crime, and the railways have thus no choice as to make sure that their ticket machines don't contain to much money. That everyone without a ticket on board is considered a fare evader is another effect.
in Switzerland ticket machines do accept notes, both Swiss and Euro (and even Reka vouchers), and you can still buy tickets on board. But someone being aggressive against a train conductor will be removed by force from the train, and will not see his own bed for the next 24 hours.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Swiss ticket machines doesn't give more than 20 CHF change (about 13 EUR) whatever is the price of the ticket. Maximum accepted note is I think 50 CHF. This means that you can't buy a 279.90 CHF ticket using six 50 CHF notes.

(by the way, the price I have given do really exist, it's about the price of a Geneva-St Gallen return first class ticket, but this can be reduced to 30 to 70 CHF following the discounts)


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

You will not see any form of competition to FYRA till the end of the franchise as it is protected for competition on "domestic" routes in the Netherlands and routes to Belgium.

The only thing we might expect is an ICE operated by DB which does only call at Brussels to pich up passengers for the UK.

The only competition to FYRA cuold come from an open acces operator running an hourly service over the classic line.


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> I don't think many passengers would ride the Amsterdam - London train,


Why? The current Eurostar has an attractive fare (99 euro for a returnticket from any station in The Netherlands to London St. Pancras), but you waste a lot of time in Brussel. Not just because of the check-in time, but also because of the unreliable Benelux-service to Brussels which forces me to take a train earlier.

If the ICE would eliminate those wasted time in Brussels and offers attractive fares, I think it might attract a lot of passengers. The majority of the people travelling Amsterdam-London do this by plane. It's funny there are far more flights between Amsterdam and London than there are trains between Amsterdam and Rotterdam via the HSL.


AlexNL said:


> but an ICE from Amsterdam to Brussels without compulsory registration (like Thalys has and is planned for international Fyra journeys as well) would do serious damage to Fyra, I think.


Of course, if ICE would offer an attractive fare. But would Deutsche Bahn _want_ to compete with NS Hispeed? The ICE Amsterdam-Frankfurt and IC Amsterdam-Berlin are jointly operated by NS HiSpeed and Deutsche Bahn. Competing with Fyra would seriously harm the relations between NS and DB while they are now close allies. I don't see that happen.

Just speculation, but maybe DB could takeover HSA/NS HiSpeed. NS is losing a lot of money with HSA and might want to get rid of it. If DB would purchase HSA, it could run the Fyra-trains with it's own 200 km/h Intercity stock and takeover the NS-share in Thalys. DB could then easily add some ICEs Amsterdam-Brussels-London.

This scenario seems very attractive to both Deutsche Bahn and NS. NS gets rid of the losses on the HSL and all those struggles with AnsaldoBreda and NMBS. And DB has an unique opportunity to acquire the HSL-Zuid opperations really cheap (as HSA is losing money there). And as a side effect, DB could run the IC Amsterdam-Berlin and ICE Amsterdam-Frankfurt all by themselves, but of course they would do that still in close cooperation with NS.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Coccodrillo said:


> Swiss ticket machines doesn't give more than 20 CHF change (about 13 EUR) whatever is the price of the ticket. Maximum accepted note is I think 50 CHF. This means that you can't buy a 279.90 CHF ticket using six 50 CHF notes.
> 
> (by the way, the price I have given do really exist, it's about the price of a Geneva-St Gallen return first class ticket, but this can be reduced to 30 to 70 CHF following the discounts)


That ticket is actually 324,-, but you'd be crazy to buy it. Just buy a half fare card, and a day pass (or two day passes if you're returning on a different day)

Anway, the ticket machines also accept all major domestic and foreign debit and credit cards. And you can, if all else fails, still buy your ticket on board. So SBB isn't really making it hard...


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

K_ said:


> There is actually a link between the coffee shops and the fact that ticket machines don't accept notes.
> Basically the people of the Netherlands are to tolerant. That results amongst other things in the government being to soft on crime, and the railways have thus no choice as to make sure that their ticket machines don't contain to much money. That everyone without a ticket on board is considered a fare evader is another effect.


Thanks again everyone for the responses to my posts. 

As you mention coffee shops, it may be worth me confessing that I had, ahem, been a customer of a few coffee shops in Rotterdam, and quite a lot more in Amsterdam. 

I think this may have been partly the reason why I found the construction site at Rotterdam such a pain, and then found the prospect of queuing for the notes-to-coins machine a little less then relaxing. 

With a fresh head I'm neither issue would have been a bother at all for me. 

As for the tannoy announcements only being in Dutch, oddly enough I quite like the fact that there were no English announcements, as I simply like the sound of the Dutch language - it's like German but without the aggressive overtones (I'm only joking by the way German-speakers, I like German really). 

I once began a mission to learn Dutch, as I mistakenly thought it might be easy to do, given the fact that the Dutch are such naturals with English. 

One day I went to the reception of a large company in Rotterdam, and made a great effort to say 'good morning' along with some other pleasantries in my best Dutch. The receptionist told me not to bother trying to speak Dutch, as any Dutch person will be able to tell I'm British and will simply speak to me in English anyway. 

But back to the High Speed line...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't think NS-Hispeed will be "taken over" anytime soon by any other rail company. The HSA is a SPE, even if it fails, NS-Hispeed would still have its lucrative shares on Thalys and German-bound ICEs.


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## kerouac1848 (Jun 9, 2009)

> Why? The current Eurostar has an attractive fare (99 euro for a returnticket from any station in The Netherlands to London St. Pancras), but you waste a lot of time in Brussel. Not just because of the check-in time, but also because of the unreliable Benelux-service to Brussels which forces me to take a train earlier.
> 
> If the ICE would eliminate those wasted time in Brussels and offers attractive fares, I think it might attract a lot of passengers. The majority of the people travelling Amsterdam-London do this by plane. It's funny there are far more flights between Amsterdam and London than there are trains between Amsterdam and Rotterdam via the HSL.


Agree totally. The actual time on the train according to Eurostar is around 4 hours, which is less than London to Scotland by train, which isn't bad when you consider the time wasted in changing at Brussels (something you don't have to do on a trip to Glasgow). 

Anyway, more important is the _total_ time from the moment you leave your place to the moment you arrive at your destination. In this respect the train can sometimes already equal the plane. Depending upon where you live and are going to, if you are checking in luggage, and what London airports you will fly to/from, a door-to-door journey time can be anywhere from 5-6.5hours, and over 7 if there is even a small delay of 30mins. On a random search on Eurostar's website, a morning train on the 16th of September takes 4hrs16mins from London to Amsterdam including the change at Brussels. In that case, the total journey could be as low as 5.5hours. Now take away that stop at Brussels and make it direct and a time of under 5hrs is possible on some trips for some people, which would beat a plane.

Btw, return LDN-Dam flights aren't cheap anymore; trying getting one for under £90 for the total cost (so including luggage check-in, debit/credit card fee, all transport costs to and from both airports)


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

kerouac1848 said:


> Anyway, more important is the _total_ time from the moment you leave your place to the moment you arrive at your destination. In this respect the train can sometimes already equal the plane. Depending upon where you live and are going to, if you are checking in luggage, and what London airports you will fly to/from, a door-to-door journey time can be anywhere from 5-6.5hours, and over 7 if there is even a small delay of 30mins.


No way. Airborne time is 43 minutes. If you fly from London City, you don't need to be there with 2 hours advance. Now that BAA improved and streamlined its operations, it's well possible to arrive at Heathrow 1h40 before flight departure, provided you've checked in online and you use the drop-bag stations. 1h15 will do it if you know your way in the airport and have no checked bag.

In London City those times are lower. I wish more cities constructed executive airports like LCY.


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## kerouac1848 (Jun 9, 2009)

First, LCY is designed for a niche market; that is, business people for whom price is not the most important factor. The cheapest return ticket for the middle of September is £124 with BA, headline price. For those not fitting that description LCY isn't a viable option. Even Heathrow won't be featuring for most people. The vast majority of Heathrow-Schiphol flights are connecting ones, mostly from North America, rather than stand alone (just like a guy who has recently moved into my place from California).

Second, I've done this flight twice recently and both times it took a little more than 5 hours in total. The second time I didn't even have any checked luggage and arrived about 70mins before the flight (which was delayed by about 15mins). The problem is the time it takes getting from where you are in London to the airport (or vice versa). Live anywhere apart from north-east London and getting to Stansted can take an age (easily up to 2 hours or more if you take the cheaper bus from Victoria. Which alot must do as it is 30 pounds for a return train ticket). Ditto anybody living South, East or West for Luton. The Netherlands part is a breeze by comparison.

Sure, if you can drive to any of those airports in 35mins then you can do it in about 4.5hours. But I did say for _some_ people _some_ times, and shit loads of people don't drive in london as it is.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

A lot of people seem to think that London City = expensive. I've done this flight regularly over the past couple of years and seen prices as low as £ 17 plus tax with £ 34 plus tax being typical.

Still, some rail-based competition would be welcome and if Eurostar won't provide it, I'm glad DB are considering it.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

kerouac1848 said:


> Second, I've done this flight twice recently and both times it took a little more than 5 hours in total. The second time I didn't even have any checked luggage and arrived about 70mins before the flight (which was delayed by about 15mins). The problem is the time it takes getting from where you are in London to the airport (or vice versa). Live anywhere apart from north-east London and getting to Stansted can take an age (easily up to 2 hours or more if you take the cheaper bus from Victoria. Which alot must do as it is 30 pounds for a return train ticket). Ditto anybody living South, East or West for Luton. The Netherlands part is a breeze by comparison.
> 
> Sure, if you can drive to any of those airports in 35mins then you can do it in about 4.5hours. But I did say for _some_ people _some_ times, and shit loads of people don't drive in london as it is.


Apart from backpackers, who is crazy enough to take buses to Stansted, and not the train or their private cars?

People also don't live in the immediate vicinity of St. Pancras too. You need to account for that. Indeed, it is a flaw in many rail-or-air comparison: travel time is measured as if people lived only in close proximity of stations served by HSL and were headed only for places in close proximity of them in other country.

So it its not appropriate to compare travel times only from train station to train station and then put it side by side with time it takes for people to go from the HS train station to/from airports...

In a city like Amsterdam, it can take as much as 30 minutes for someone to arrive at the main train station. If you drive, it is far more difficult to drive and park your car near the central train station than at Schiphol Airport.

I guess it is the same in London.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> People also don't live in the immediate vicinity of St. Pancras too. You need to account for that. Indeed, it is a flaw in many rail-or-air comparison: travel time is measured as if people lived only in close proximity of stations served by HSL and were headed only for places in close proximity of them in other country.


There is ofcourse also Ebsfleet, Ashford, and soon Stratford.

And time isn't everything too. If it's priced competitively I guess quite a few people would take the train from Amsterdam to London even if it took them an hour more, just to avoid the dreadful experience air travel is nowadays.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> In Europe, while many rail projects fail to meet ridership forecasts upon completion, most new or widened highways fill up quickly.


Actually the opposite is true quite often. The biggest problem many railways in Europe have at the moment is that their services are too popular. I don't know of any recent rail project that failed to meet ridership forecasts, except for the Channel Tunnel (if only they hadn't handicapped it with stupid security theatre things would have been different). I don know of quite a few new services that have difficulty even meeting demand. The trains from Switzerland to Paris for example regularly sell out weeks in advance, to the point that railway officials have to fly...


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## kerouac1848 (Jun 9, 2009)

> Apart from backpackers, who is crazy enough to take buses to Stansted, and not the train or their private cars?


You'll be surprised. Whole families take the eurolines bus all the way.... It is £30 for a return from Liverpool st. to Stansted by train. The train is still 45mins, plus you gotta get to Liverpool st, which again varies massively depending upon where you live 


> People also don't live in the immediate vicinity of St. Pancras too. You need to account for that. Indeed, it is a flaw in many rail-or-air comparison: travel time is measured as if people lived only in close proximity of stations served by HSL and were headed only for places in close proximity of them in other country.
> 
> So it its not appropriate to compare travel times only from train station to train station and then put it side by side with time it takes for people to go from the HS train station to/from airports...


I did qualify my point by saying for* some* people. I even said that for those who live on the edge of London and drive, they might be able to get to Stansted, Luton et al in 30-45mins. I'm not saying that the train is always quicker, merely pointing that for *some people some of time* it will be.

Also, I was clearly comparing door-to-door journey times, not ignoring the time it takes to get to station and board the train.

The thing about airports (which is especially important in large cities such as London) is that they are situated on one side of the city, often quite far from the boundary. If you don't happen to live on that side of the city than getting to that airport can be a pain. Train stations, however, are often hubs in the centre of town, which due to the radial nature of a transport network means that getting to it from any side of the city isn't that much of a problem. Stansted is about 55km from where I was last living in London. Gatwick 48km and Luton 35km. St Pancras was 15km with a direct train without needing to change. However, live down in Croydon and Gatwick is 25km away, so it depends (although Luton and Stansted are then over 60km away each...)


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

kerouac1848 said:


> . However, live down in Croydon and Gatwick is 25km away, so it depends (although Luton and Stansted are then over 60km away each...)


Live in Croydon and st. Pancras international is just a few stations down the line from Gatwick...


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

K_ said:


> Actually the opposite is true quite often. The biggest problem many railways in Europe have at the moment is that their services are too popular. I don't know of any recent rail project that failed to meet ridership forecasts...


Well.... How about the Dutch HSL-Zuid where this topic is all about?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Maarten Otto said:


> Well.... How about the Dutch HSL-Zuid where this topic is all about?


That is a bad example, especially in a discussion with Suburbanist, as HSA is doing exactly that what they should do according to him...
The counterexample is Switzerland, where the SBB is starting to really get worried about their success... The two new lines that recently have opened (the NBS Bern - Olten and the LBT) are far more successful than expected. Another line recently opened that is a lot more successful than anticipated is the TGV Est-Européen.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Maarten Otto said:


> Well.... How about the Dutch HSL-Zuid where this topic is all about?


Thalys is benefiting from the HSL-Zuid, their trains are quite full, despite the higher prices than before (€ 25 as opposed to € 35 for a single trip Amsterdam - Paris for the early birds). It is only Fyra that is failing miserably.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> Thalys is benefiting from the HSL-Zuid, their trains are quite full, despite the higher prices than before (€ 25 as opposed to € 35 for a single trip Amsterdam - Paris for the early birds). It is only Fyra that is failing miserably.


Thalys services improved not only their travel times, but also their reliability. It was common for Thalys to get stuck behind local trains in the Den-Haag-Schiphol line.

After Trenitalia's Eurostar AV, I think Thalys is the best high-speed operator in Europe, offering reserved-seats only (a must), variable fares, incentives to advance purchase and skimming prices for last minute travelers. I wish other operators followed those both services (Eurostar - the Anglo-French one is getting it right).


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> After Trenitalia's Eurostar AV, I think Thalys is the best high-speed operator in Europe, offering reserved-seats only (a must), variable fares, incentives to advance purchase and skimming prices for last minute travelers. I wish other operators followed those both services (Eurostar - the Anglo-French one is getting it right).


Trenitalia the best high speed operator in Europe? What planet are you living on?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> Trenitalia the best high speed operator in Europe? What planet are you living on?


The planet in which rail is a premium service heading only toward high-speed services, leaving the bulk of slow-speed traffic to roads and highways. The planet in which rail companies act like airlines, not like a public service agency. The planet in which rail routes are cut like airline services for economic reasons and nobody can complain like it was a "right" to have transport over tracks in their city or so. The planet that requires advance planning of hefty on spot fees. The planet in which outdated and Third World on-board ticketing was abolished in the name of efficiency.

Trenitalia is far from perfect, and I'm the first to point its ailments and shortcomings, and its plagued by some remnants of union action, but at least it is on the right track. The last economic crisis just set the in the mood to study the closure of more than 700km of tracks, local ones, small branches, which is a good move. We have too many rail lines and need to build more highways to replace some of them. Exactly like Italy has been doing since the first Berlusconi Cabinet in 1996. 

Now I'm with fingers crossed for full privatization of Trenitalia (I mean the passenger operator, not of RFI or any infrastructure operator).

And I wish the Dutch government fully privatized their passenger operations too, and stopped giving money (more than € 1,4 bln. last year!) to them, while diverting the funds to much more needed highway widening. A matter of priorities. The Netherlands have one of the highest per capita income in the World, we could easily afford - for instance - the sudden cancellation of all discount cards, starting with the students' ones.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

K_ said:


> Trenitalia the best high speed operator in Europe? What planet are you living on?


During the last years FS group managed to reduce the deficit of the company. But to do this FS has destroyed the railway system. It was like reducing overcrowding in hospitals killing some patients, not really a good way to solve problems, but still loved by some.

Trenitalia network is unfortunately going to the disaster as Suburbanist like: a lot of extremely expensive infrastructure for a low traffic. Just like Spain is doing. Luckily Switzerland and The Netherlands (*) have understood that this lead to the destruction of railways (and congestion on roads, that is, more expenditure to enlarge them) and continue on their philosophy of "less infrastructure, more technology".

(*) except HSL-Zuid


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## Crownsteler (Aug 20, 2003)

> And I wish the Dutch government fully privatized their passenger operations too, and stopped giving money (more than € 1,4 bln. last year!) to them, while diverting the funds to much more needed highway widening. A matter of priorities. The Netherlands have one of the highest per capita income in the World, we could easily afford - for instance - the sudden cancellation of all discount cards, starting with the students' ones.


Okey, we know you hate trains, and I'm not even going to argue with you anymore, but I'd like to correct you here. The NS payed the treasury €1.4 billion (in special dividend) last year, it did not recieve it! And aside from that, it pays the treasury each year, in the form of corporate tax (about €100 million), and a normal divided (also about €100 million).


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> And I wish the Dutch government fully privatized their passenger operations too, and stopped giving money (more than € 1,4 bln. last year!) to them, while diverting the funds to much more needed highway widening. A matter of priorities. The Netherlands have one of the highest per capita income in the World, we could easily afford - for instance - the sudden cancellation of all discount cards, starting with the students' ones.


Errr.. wrong! NS Reizigers does not receive money from the government, it actually pays money. HSA pays to the government and to ProRail for using the HSL-Zuid, NS Reizigers pays to ProRail for the other tracks. Then there's dividend, taxes, etc.

Of course, there is money which flows from the government to the tracks... but this money goes to ProRail, to keep the rail infrastructure available and to expand it: Hanzelijn, Betuweroute, HSL-Zuid, various track works in other parts of the country, etc.

It's not like Belgium, where several billions of euros go to SNCB while SNCB can't even make a profit...


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## cjav (Jun 24, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> And I wish the Dutch government fully privatized their passenger operations too, and stopped giving money (more than € 1,4 bln. last year!) to them, while diverting the funds to much more needed highway widening. A matter of priorities. The Netherlands have one of the highest per capita income in the World, we could easily afford - for instance - the sudden cancellation of all discount cards, starting with the students' ones.


You could call student OV indirect subsidies.
Student public transport cards are not just discount cards for public transport, students pay 120 euro a month for these cards, one might say this is cheap, true. However on average not all students travel as much. They are however vital for many students in being able to fund their college degree. Whereas many countries have scholarships for students these are basically absent for dutch student. This combined with the artificially high costs of road travel will impede many students from going to a university of their choice. Considering the value the country is supposed to attribute to education. Those cards are but a small cost. If these small indirect subsidies enables travel I think it is worth it. 
People would not easily afford the cancellation of such discounts. Considering transport costs are significant. Not everyone can afford having to pay hundreds of euros a month extra. Those that cannot afford car travel are completely dependent on public transport. 

As for receiving money directly, Alex is right the NS does not receive subsidies, it however does pay dividend. On the other hand prorail does receive subsidies, but they are also 100% state owned. In my eyes the government is responsibel for rails infrastructure as much as roads.


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## ArthurK (Jun 16, 2009)

^^ I agree, but I do expect the Student Card will disappear within a few years. It's one of the easiest ways for cutting the public spending, as most students live in the city of their university. I expect the card to be replaced by a montly "student travel budget" on the OV-Chipcard, or just free travel between the city of their residence and the city where they are studying. Or a combination of those. 

Such change of policy would have a big effect on the public transport in The Netherlands. But it will be inevitable; we can't continue to spend a significant part of the education budget to public transport. Plus, it would encourage students to live on their own in the city of their study, instead of staying at their parents' house and travel to the university everyday.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

The Studenten OV-Chipkaart is not that bad in terms of being a separate program with an independent budget allocation, contrary to what happens in other countries where students travel with discounts or for free at the expense of the transportation companies' budgets.

What I don't understand is why, particularly with the new OV-Chipkaart, can't the government control the use of transportation by students. I understand and, as long as it is allocated as part of educational budget, agree with helping students to attend universities they otherwise couldn't. Still, I see and I've read about a lot of "wrong signals" sent by the free transportation cards, for instance, allowing students who find their University cities' not attractive to live elsewhere and commute (happens a lot here in Tilburg), providing free transportation for night outs in the bigger cities (what is the point of gov't subsidizing students' clubbing?), and even the choice of some part-time jobs in cities up to 1h away by train whose salary, particularly for those younger than 20, wouldn't be enough to pay a monthly pass in that route.

So maybe there are a lot of opportunities to cut expenses down without compromising the core function of this program - allow students to attend college and professional schools. The new RFID ticketing system just make it far more easy to "tweak" the program. Do you live in Heerlen and study in Maastricht? Then you have no business using your student card to go to Eindhoven!


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

This has been suggested before, but the outcome was that it would not be interesting at all to tweak the program as it would mean much more administrative overhead for OCW DUO (the organisation responsible for the SOVC). Just look at the amount of things that went wrong during the initial roll-out of the SOVC a couple of months ago, where students had to wait in lines for hours to then find out that they either got the wrong product or didn't get anything at all.

A couple of years ago, the OV-studentenkaart was valid 24/7, as opposed to the current situation with work week and weekend cards. This led to the start of a courier service by public transport... students were earning money with the OV-SK, which was a gift! The rules changed eventually, splitting the OV-SK in the two parts we know nowadays: the week card (valid from monday morning to saturday morning, 4:00) and the weekend card (valid from friday, noon until monday morning, 4:00).

Changing the current SOVC from a net pass to a trajectory pass would mean that for each student a seperate product would have to be created and placed on the students' card, which would need travel rights for their home city (i.e. Tilburg), to their university city (i.e. Nijmegen) and also for public transport in Nijmegen to get to the university buildings and back. While it might sounds more 'fair' towards the other people it wouldn't be as cost-efficient as some people suggest it to be.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> The planet in which rail is a premium service heading only toward high-speed services, leaving the bulk of slow-speed traffic to roads and highways. The planet in which rail companies act like airlines, not like a public service agency. The planet in which rail routes are cut like airline services for economic reasons and nobody can complain like it was a "right" to have transport over tracks in their city or so. The planet that requires advance planning of hefty on spot fees. The planet in which outdated and Third World on-board ticketing was abolished in the name of efficiency.


I still find the idea of throwing away billions in positive externalities in the name of "efficiency" rather absurd.



> Trenitalia is far from perfect, and I'm the first to point its ailments and shortcomings, and its plagued by some remnants of union action, but at least it is on the right track. The last economic crisis just set the in the mood to study the closure of more than 700km of tracks, local ones, small branches, which is a good move. We have too many rail lines and need to build more highways to replace some of them. Exactly like Italy has been doing since the first Berlusconi Cabinet in 1996.
> 
> Now I'm with fingers crossed for full privatization of Trenitalia (I mean the passenger operator, not of RFI or any infrastructure operator).


Italy is the only country in Europe where a private company thinks it has a shot at successfully competing with the incumbent. That says a lot about the incumbent, and was basically why I was so amazed at Trenitalia being declared the best high speed operator in the Europe. 
I'd say that it's rather the oposite. Every other high speed railway operator in the world does it better than Trenitalia...



> And I wish the Dutch government fully privatized their passenger operations too, and stopped giving money (more than € 1,4 bln. last year!) to them, while diverting the funds to much more needed highway widening. A matter of priorities. The Netherlands have one of the highest per capita income in the World, we could easily afford - for instance - the sudden cancellation of all discount cards, starting with the students' ones.


The Netherlands actually does spend money on highway widening too. They even undertook the highways and the railway to the Dutch - Belgian border at the same time.
However, highway widening has it's limit. No amount of highway widening will for example solve the traffic jams on the A12 towards Den Haag every morning.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> However, hight widening has it's limit. No amount of highway widening will for example solve the traffic jams on the A12 towards Den Haag every morning.


Massive urban (underground and elevated) highway construction can solve it.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Massive urban (underground and elevated) highway construction can solve it.


Basically you are proposing to save our cities by destroying them?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> Basically you are proposing to save our cities by destroying them?


"Save" cities? What are you talking about? We need to go past this discourse of "saving" cities from development like it were a bad thing. Most European cities were not originally planned to fit the superior benefits brought by the car, hence, they need to be reinvented and so.

Urban highways, underground if it is the case (whey they bother no one), is part of the solution - together with biofuels, electric cars and so.

The cities need to be saved from environwackism and NIMBYism, indeed.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The problem with asphalt is that the more roads you build, the more cars will run on it which eventually means you'll have to start building more roads just to cope with demand. It's a vicious circle, and if you keep following it you'll end up with a city that's nothing more than a huge slab of asphalt.

The car definitely has its advantages, but to solve the traffic jams problem people would need to be triggered not to take the car everywhere. Take London's congestion charge, for example. I think this is a fine incentive to try and keep people out of the city centre with their cars, they should dump their car somewhere at a nearby parking lot and take public transport from there.

Rail shouldn't be for the elite, as that will mean more cars on the road. It should be for everyone, available and accessible at any time, and it should be financially attracting enough so the number of cars on the roads gets reduced.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> "Save" cities? What are you talking about? We need to go past this discourse of "saving" cities from development like it were a bad thing. Most European cities were not originally planned to fit the superior benefits brought by the car, hence, they need to be reinvented and so.


And the people living in these cities are just inconvenient bystanders who should be ignored? 
Sorry, but what you propose is not possible in a democracy.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> The problem with asphalt is that the more roads you build, the more cars will run on it which eventually means you'll have to start building more roads just to cope with demand. It's a vicious circle, and if you keep following it you'll end up with a city that's nothing more than a huge slab of asphalt.


Myth, a leftist one.

Even if cars cost nothing and gas was free (like air you breathe), that doesn't mean people would be driving all day all night. If the built-up footprint of NL were - say - tripled from 13% of total land area to 39% of total land area, you would reduce density to a third of what it is now, spread traffic and, with a decent program of highway building, you could easily move people around.

Gosh, drivers were not stay driving all the day, they need to work most of their days like any Western citizen.

The idea of not relieving car congestion to "force" people to use PT is just an excuse to promote a certain living arrangement, which are urban areas too dense to cope with an American-style of car mobility.



> Rail shouldn't be for the elite, as that will mean more cars on the road. It should be for everyone, available and accessible at any time, and it should be financially attracting enough so the number of cars on the roads gets reduced.


Rail should be able to finance its direct costs. Every Western European government recoup far more in road taxes, car licensing fees and gas levies more than it is spent in road maintenance, construction and so. If the outrageous taxes we pay on gas (I mean the product-specific ones, not the general ones like VAT) were used to, and only to, maintain, build, widen, improve and expand roads (capacity, safety, technology, efficiency), we should be expanding our networks like the Chinese or more.

Same can't be said for rail in many countries, though. Pet rail projects divert money from highway taxes, usually..

Imagine how could would it be if this country (NL) get rid of some of its outdated farms (Dutch are rich, they/we can import our from from Latin America or Africa without feeling the pinch) to adopt a heavily suburbanized urban arrangement where we could more easily choose a neighborhood that fits our personal lifestyles and avoid having to interact with so many people on a daily basis.

======


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> The problem with asphalt is that the more roads you build, the more cars will run on it which eventually means you'll have to start building more roads just to cope with demand. It's a vicious circle, and if you keep following it you'll end up with a city that's nothing more than a huge slab of asphalt.


Myth, a leftist one.

Even if cars cost nothing and gas were free (like air you breathe), that doesn't mean people would be driving all day all night. If the built-up footprint of NL were - say - tripled from 13% of total land area to 39% of total land area, you would reduce density to a third of what it is now, spread traffic and, with a decent program of highway building, you could easily move people around.

Gosh, drivers were not stay driving all the day, they need to work most of their days like any Western citizen.

The idea of not relieving car congestion to "force" people to use PT is just an excuse to promote a certain living arrangement, which are urban areas too dense to cope with an American-style of car mobility.



> Rail shouldn't be for the elite, as that will mean more cars on the road. It should be for everyone, available and accessible at any time, and it should be financially attracting enough so the number of cars on the roads gets reduced.


Rail should be able to finance its direct costs. Every Western European government recoup far more in road taxes, car licensing fees and gas levies more than it is spent in road maintenance, construction and so. If the outrageous taxes we pay on gas (I mean the product-specific ones, not the general ones like VAT) were used to, and only to, maintain, build, widen, improve and expand roads (capacity, safety, technology, efficiency), we should be expanding our networks like the Chinese or more.

Same can't be said for rail in many countries, though. Pet rail projects divert money from highway taxes, usually..

Imagine how cool would it be if this country (NL) get rid of some of its outdated farms (Dutch are rich, they/we can import our from from Latin America or Africa without feeling the punch and helping to uproot arcane farming practices in those regions too by promoting 21st Century farming there to meet our demands for which we can pay) to adopt a heavily suburbanized urban arrangement where we could more easily choose a neighborhood that fits our personal lifestyles and avoid having to interact with so many people on a daily basis.

======

In such daydreaming scenario, HS rail would make all sense, hauling people who can pay premium prices faster than cars around the country. But then, with all the problems in HSL Zuid, even the much-needed north branch of HSL will not be built (Amsterdam-Hannover).


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## Dase (Sep 6, 2009)

@ Suburbanist: Are you some kind of time traveller from the 70s? The times of the "superiour benefits" brought by the car are over soon and have destroyed much of european cities during the 50s-70s. Luckily, a lot of rethinking has set in during the past 20 years and the times of massive urban highway construction is over for good. Try to get out of your metal boy once in a while, maybe then you'll get why there's actually a point in avoiding additional individual traffic. 

Anyway I'd try to avoid sounding like an old men when the Ph.D is still under development. That you try to avoid having to interact with people on a daily basis just fits into that sorry pciture.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Dase said:


> @ Suburbanist: Are you some kind of time traveller from the 70s? The times of the "superiour benefits" brought by the car are over soon and have destroyed much of european cities during the 50s-70s.


Europeans, according to EUROSTAT, drive, own an spend more time in cars than in anytime before.

But politicians pay lip service to the environmental-urbanism lobby.

And I'm no "old man", not even 30 LOL, I just don't signed the political green correctness manual and I'm not planning doing so anytime soon.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

It's an useless waste of time replying to Suburbanist, ideologism doesn't accept discussions or arguments but only what it consider truth.


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## Dase (Sep 6, 2009)

> And I'm no "old man", not even 30 LOL


That's why I said try to avoid sounding like one. Zeitgeist is playing against your cards.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Myth, a leftist one.


You can have a look at Los Angeles. Everything but a leftist myth...




> Even if cars cost nothing and gas were free (like air you breathe), that doesn't mean people would be driving all day all night. If the built-up footprint of NL were - say - tripled from 13% of total land area to 39% of total land area, you would reduce density to a third of what it is now, spread traffic and, with a decent program of highway building, you could easily move people around.


So you basically propose a big social engineering experiment? 



> Rail should be able to finance its direct costs.


But when doing so, externalities should be considered too, otherwise you end up with a society that is less efficient than it could be.




> Imagine how cool would it be if this country (NL) get rid of some of its outdated farms (Dutch are rich, they/we can import our from from Latin America or Africa without feeling the punch and helping to uproot arcane farming practices in those regions too by promoting 21st Century farming there to meet our demands for which we can pay) to adopt a heavily suburbanized urban arrangement where we could more easily choose a neighborhood that fits our personal lifestyles and avoid having to interact with so many people on a daily basis.


Again: You're suggesting destroying the country in order to save it...
You must really regret that the Netherlands is a democracy...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> You can have a look at Los Angeles. Everything but a leftist myth...


LA doesn't have enough highways. Simple as that. LA has less highways per area or per population that other metro areas with far less congestions problems like Houston, Orlando-Tampa, Minneapolis or Salt Lake City.



> But when doing so, externalities should be considered too, otherwise you end up with a society that is less efficient than it could be.


"Externality" has become a wild card to explain and justify ever financial resource waste in rail projects when the bottom line doesn't add up. "It will increase quality of life". "It will reduce stress and road rage". "It will put the city in a more sustainable track". None of that pay taxes or produce revenue.



> Again: You're suggesting destroying the country in order to save it...
> You must really regret that the Netherlands is a democracy...


Not at all. I do think that the environmental-urbanism lobby hijacks much of technical and financial debate about how free the real estate market should be to build pretty much wherever it wants. But I strongly support Democracy, so I myself consider car-friendless as one of my major factors while deciding my votes. I'd tolerate certain degrees of ideas in other fields I don't support just to vote for a politician who will be deaf to the scare-mongering tactics of mainstream urban planners.

As for the "destruction" part, where you see destruction I see transformation. It is like when you chop down a forest to plant soybean, like some friends of mine do by the thousands of hectares in South America. You are not destroying anything, just replacing with something else.

What European country would need, in 2010, a strong agricultural sector that can't compete modern plantations in US, Canada, Australia and Latina America (and even in more stable areas of Africa?). Farmland is useless. So let's take out the strings of housing market and allow the market forces to determine where and how cities should expand.

Then the government should provide infrastructure at the lowest possible cost, like high-speed rail, airports, highways an so. This is how a society should function. A Democracy with strong doses of free-market.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> LA doesn't have enough highways. Simple as that.


About 70% of the surface area of Los Angeles is dedicated to the Automobile. And you think that is not enough?



> "Externality" has become a wild card to explain and justify ever financial resource waste in rail projects when the bottom line doesn't add up. "It will increase quality of life". "It will reduce stress and road rage". "It will put the city in a more sustainable track". None of that pay taxes or produce revenue.


The externality is however real. And it can be "added up" and does "pay taxes" and does "produce revenue". That you seem to miss this does indicate that there is quite a bit still lacking in your understanding of transport economics.
For example: Proximity to public transport does increase the value of real estate, which in turn increases tax revenue (well, it does were I live).



> But I strongly support Democracy, so I myself consider car-friendless as one of my major factors while deciding my votes. I'd tolerate certain degrees of ideas in other fields I don't support just to vote for a politician who will be deaf to the scare-mongering tactics of mainstream urban planners.


So basically if the population votes in favor of more spending for public transport (as it does in Switzerland) that this should be OK for you.



> As for the "destruction" part, where you see destruction I see transformation. It is like when you chop down a forest to plant soybean, like some friends of mine do by the thousands of hectares in South America. You are not destroying anything, just replacing with something else.


I doubt you will find many people who, when confronted with the suggestion of replacing downtown Amsterdam with something looking like downtown Los Angeles, would call it "transformation" and not simply "destruction".


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

hoosier said:


> That's because the U.S. has terrible mass transit. How can people use transit where it doesn't exist? Are you seriously this stupid?


Typical egg-and-chicken problem: do you have "terrible" mass transit because people don't use it, or people don't use it because it is terrible?

As the US has a stronger support for limited government involvement in public services (public =/= gov't run), the inherent flaws of transit and the fact became more evident, and taxpayers not always support transit projects that require tax hikes. Sure, there are cases in which they approve (TRex in Denver, for instance), but others in which they don't want to pay more.

My 2 cents: Americans love the big houses they live in and the unlimited (provided you have money) mobility the car gives you. And it follows that transit is not suitable for the preferred housing typology chosen by Americans.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> And it follows that transit is not suitable for the preferred housing typology chosen by American.


Incredibly, I agree :nuts: 

But I do not with the "urban sprawl" theory - but this is also question of preferences.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*Technicalities on the "Breda issue"*

Does anyone know, exactly or with greater precision, what are the problems precluding pre-Fyra trains (Traxx + ICM) to run from Rotterdam to Breda?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

During test runs ProRail has found out that there are some EMC (Electro Magnetic Current) related issues happening at the cross-over near Breda from the high speed tracks to the regular tracks. The 25 kV power badly influences the 1500 V tracks adjacent to them, which could cause signalling or train detection systems to fail... which in turn would lead to hazardous situations where a train might enter a section already occupied by another train, or passing a signal which shows green light while it's supposed to be red.

It's thought that EMC-issues have caused the disaster at Buizingen, earlier this year. This hasn't been proven yet, but it is a probability as high speed trains also use those tracks, and the driver claimed he saw a green light.

These problems have occured before near Hoofddorp and Barendrecht, but appearantly the situation this time is different because of the large amount of kilometers where the HSL and the other line are laying next to eachother (from Breda to beyond the Hollandsch Diep bridge).


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> It's thought that EMC-issues have caused the disaster at Buizingen, earlier this year. This hasn't been proven yet, but it is a probability as high speed trains also use those tracks, and the driver claimed he saw a green light.


In buizingen the HST's are already running 5 km on 3kV DC, so there's no 25KV AC nearby.
Also the trains involved didn't come from/went towards the HSL, so I m wondering what wuold be the connection between the accident and the AC vs DC EMC problems?


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> Does anyone know, exactly or with greater precision, what are the problems precluding pre-Fyra trains (Traxx + ICM) to run from Rotterdam to Breda?


Simply, I think, because they don't have enough cars to do it... The ICM
carriages are those that were already used on the Brussels-Amsterdam
route before being renovated and repainted. They already had to retire
all cab cars : their driving posts were matched to the belgian HLE 21, so
NS decided not to renovate them. So now they are down to 6 cars per
train, and don't have the possibility to allocate any of those cars to another
route.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

pietje01 said:


> In buizingen the HST's are already running 5 km on 3kV DC, so there's no 25KV AC nearby.
> Also the trains involved didn't come from/went towards the HSL, so I m wondering what wuold be the connection between the accident and the AC vs DC EMC problems?


At some point in time, there were suspictions that the signal was behaving
erratically. There was even a camera to monitor it. But SNCB certainly knows
whether the advanced signal was announcing a red of not, as this is recorded
in the driver's cab.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> Simply, I think, because they don't have enough cars to do it... The ICM
> carriages are those that were already used on the Brussels-Amsterdam
> route before being renovated and repainted. They already had to retire
> all cab cars : their driving posts were matched to the belgian HLE 21, so
> ...


Not correct. NS Hispeed has rented more ICRm coaches (not ICM!) from NS Reizigers, and those are being used on Fyra and IC Brussel as well.


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## Dubbeldekker (Oct 13, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> If NS would order more Velaro from Siemens now, they might have them running before the V250's would even be admitted.
> 
> You have got to admit that if after over a year of tests the only thing which has been admitted is the pantograph... it's one hell of a crappy train! The comfort levels might be good (I don't know about that) but it sure is a horrible result that anyone should be ashamed of.
> 
> Oh, about VIRM on the HSL-Zuid? If they aren't even able to attract enough passengers to fill one ICRm-coach off-peak, a VIRM offers way too much capacity... about 5 times as much :lol: It is an interesting thought if VIRM would be retrofitted for 25 kV/ERTMS L2/200 km/h, but mostly because if that would happen those VIRMs could be used on the Utrecht - Amsterdam section.


chiming in to this thread , with very interesting comments - IMO it has been the bad bad interaction between politicians and Dutch/Belgian railway managers (say technicians) that led to this doubtful contract with AnsaldoBreda, now steering the V250 'Fyra' project to, say a big laugh ! 

It's the taxpayer who is paying , I'd say break up the contract and take the loss ! So far the Traxx loco's will do the job. 

though in the UK railway policy is (as usual) a day by day soap (where not ... ? ) , I'm mouthwatering seeing the beautiful Hitachi 395 (V225) 'Javelins' (30 ordered) speeding along the HS1 - commissioned in time , minor problems , doing what they're supposed to do.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> Not correct. NS Hispeed has rented more ICRm coaches (not ICM!) from NS Reizigers, and those are being used on Fyra and IC Brussel as well.


If that is true, explain why NS highspeed as asked SNCB to provide one
rake of cars for the Brussels-Amsterdam service ?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

That's because at first NS Reizigers could not miss more coaches than already had been rented to Hispeed. However, times are different now: the VIRM-4 fleet has been fully delivered, the SLT regional trains are also well underway in delivery. This means that NSR has been able to shuffle trains around a bit and they now need less ICRm coaches than they did before.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> That's because at first NS Reizigers could not miss more coaches than already had been rented to Hispeed. However, times are different now: the VIRM-4 fleet has been fully delivered, the SLT regional trains are also well underway in delivery. This means that NSR has been able to shuffle trains around a bit and they now need less ICRm coaches than they did before.


But they still seem to need the SNCB cars on the Amsterdam-Brussels
service, as I still saw this train yesterday myself. I don't believe they would
be able to provide a new service while, at the same time, they still rent cars 
from abroad to run the existing services...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Couldn't they manage to rent some TGV sets that could run in place of Fyra V250 until they are delivered sometime after 2012?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The I6/I10 cars leased from SNCB are being returned in December as SNCB needs them for domestic services. ICRm coaches will take their place, but some shuffling of carriages will occur. Each Benelux train will run with a yellow/blue carriage and not a white/pink/red carriage.

Fyra also runs with carriages rented from NSR, but those have been re-stickered. Their interiors have been left unchanged, so lots of empty yellow chairs for Fyra. Given the current ridership of Fyra, I would say the number of cars on each train could easily be reduced to say, 4 cars, and there would still be enough seating capacity - even during peak hours.

With regards to the TGV question: there's a limited amount of TGV's that's equipped for the Dutch network: the Thalys sets. Each of these sets is needed for Thalys services and therefor can't be used for Fyra. Also, SNCF charges a huge sum of money for those trains... renting TGV's would be far more expensive than doing what they're doing now: run trains with pimped coaches and leased locomotives, and praying for the admission of V250.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I was thinking that if HSA rented TGV sets from SNCF, they could drop the Benelux trains altogether, retaining only the local Roosendaal-Essen regional train and using HSL4/Zuid for services between Amsterdam and Brussel/Bruxelles.

Not that I support this withdraw of competition, but once this will be the scheme, maybe it could work. I don't think people would flock to domestic Intercity services to Roosendal and then changing for the local cross-border train and then to 2 other Belgian trains to avoid paying extra € 8 - 17.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

SNCF also needs their TGV sets for domestic services in France. They don't have the necessary systems (being ATB, and for some: Memor, in the future TBL1+ and 3000 volts support) so that would all need to be retro-fitted. Then the trains would have to get admitted - it could go fast because the Thalys sets are already admitted in NL and Belgium. The Thalys sets themselves are needed for serving Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris and Köln.

Apart from that, SNCF does not like the idea of Thalys being used for domestic travel. It's already possible to book a Thalys train from Rotterdam to Antwerp, but this is reservation only and a last minute ticket is expensive. A one-way Thalys ticket from Rotterdam to Antwerp, tomorrow morning, costs me € 46,-. One way! 

And in your hypothetical situation: the Dutch are that cheap! If it's possible to save a few bucks they will do it... and if it isn't necessary they won't spend more euro's to get somewhere faster. Just look at the success of Fyra so far: even while it's a 20 minute time gain (33% in time on a trip Rtd-Asd), ridership is very low... even while a lot of travellers could travel without a Fyra supplement for a couple of months.

It's simple: the Benelux area is too small for high speed services with airplane like ticketing systems. When the maximum distance from A to B by car is around 3 hours not a lot of people are willing to pay much extra for a time gain.

The Fyra services from Breda have been incorporated into the NS travel planner starting December (but these trains won't run because of EMC issues!), according to ns.nl a trip from Breda to Rotterdam takes 24 minutes by Fyra, as compared to 33 minutes by regular IC. The IC is usually a bit faster (around 30 minutes) so the time gained on Breda - Rotterdam is around 6 minutes. The prices for the Fyra supplement for this part of the route aren't known yet, but it's estimated that these will be around € 4. Are you really willing to pay more for just 6 minutes of time gained?

Direct services to Amsterdam from Breda will be about 35 minutes faster than the regular intercity services: from 102 minutes to 67 minutes. This is a nice time gain... but at what price?


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

And here is the biggest surprise...

Fyra is a direct competitor to NS Reizigers.

Amsterdam to Rotterdam by NSR = €13,30 one way
Amsterdam to Rotterdam by Fyra = €10,50 one way and it saves you 20 minutes.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

...if you book in advance with low flex tickets, giving up all flexibility which NS Reizigers does have.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> ...if you book in advance with low flex tickets, giving up all flexibility which NS Reizigers does have.


What kind of flexibility does one need if they can book the train up to ten minutes before departure?


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

^^ Sometimes I change idea even a second before boarding a train (if I'm on holiday and if I have a ticket allowing it).


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

^^ But the problem is that nobody still believes everything will be running as planned in the next 12 months and even then it's still the question if the new trainsets will prove reliable.
If the end up being something like the Cisalpino or something, the confidence will not come before the sevice collapses entirely.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

That's indeed the bigger problem right now, to make it even work properly.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ How was the NS service between Hofplein and Den Haag HS via the Zoetermeer?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

NS Hispeed comes across as insecure when it comes to their communications about serving Brussels by Fyra. A little while ago, there was a news article which started with the quote "If all goes well", attributed to the commercial director of NS Hispeed. They have been very careful when it comes to giving dates for the V250 trains, surrounded by words like "hopefully" and "we expect".

If not even NS Hispeed is confident about the services they are to offer, then how do they expect us to be?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Doesn't Thalys have any new rolling stock on the pipeline, such that some of its current stock could be diverted/leased/sold to NSA operate some premium Bruxelles Midi-Anterwpen-Rotterdam-Schiphol-Amsterdam services? 

Among its contemporaries, Thalys has the best HST rolling stock.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Well, the first of 55 new TGV Duplex trainsets has been delivered to SNCF yesterday. Those Duplexes are suited for the major catanary systems in Europe. So theoretically speaking, TGV Duplex could be used for the Thalys service to Amsterdam. What you're proposing is possible.

Yet, it won't happen. The current Thalys rolling stock (PBA and PBKA) is only 15 years old and just had its midlife revision. Those trains are intended to last for another 10 or 15 years until they get replaced.


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## krulstaartje (Nov 4, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Doesn't Thalys have any new rolling stock on the pipeline, such that some of its current stock could be diverted/leased/sold to NSA operate some premium Bruxelles Midi-Anterwpen-Rotterdam-Schiphol-Amsterdam services?
> 
> Among its contemporaries, Thalys has the best HST rolling stock.


I suggested this on the Dutch forums to great ridicule a few weeks ago. I don't think it will happen either, but it seems a good idea.

You don't need new rolling stock, you can just expand the current Thalys service. To artificially get 'more' rolling stock available you could break up some services in Brussels, letting Thalys stock run Brussels - Amsterdam and using the old TGVs that SNCF uses for TGV services to Brussels for the Brussels - Paris part.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ They would need to ditch the Benelux trains and operate the route as a reservation-only train. Which is not a bad idea in my opinion, but would draw opposition from some. Thalys is less expensive, actually, if you buy those cheap € 29 tickets from Schiphol/Amsterdam to Belgium, than normal Benelux fares. At the last moment, they cost more (as they should), up to € 71 if I'm not wrong.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ They would need to ditch the Benelux trains and operate the route as a reservation-only train. Which is not a bad idea in my opinion, but would draw opposition from some. Thalys is less expensive, actually, if you buy those cheap € 29 tickets from Schiphol/Amsterdam to Belgium, than normal Benelux fares. At the last moment, they cost more (as they should), up to € 71 if I'm not wrong.


Benelux trains are supposed to disappear once the Fyra services with the
V250 trainsets are in commercial operation. This planned move generates
indeed a lot of opposition, and political parties are sensitive to that, both
in Belgium and in the Netherlands. So we will see if this plan finally 
materializes. On the other hand, if there is a window of opportunity for
slower, non-reserved, and less expensive trains on that route, we may hope
that a private investor will jump in and provide the service.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ They would need to ditch the Benelux trains and operate the route as a reservation-only train. Which is not a bad idea in my opinion, but would draw opposition from some. Thalys is less expensive, actually, if you buy those cheap € 29 tickets from Schiphol/Amsterdam to Belgium, than normal Benelux fares. At the last moment, they cost more (as they should), up to € 71 if I'm not wrong.


Ok, we can do that. However, we need to try out passenger response first so we have elected YOU to be the only person to test fare differentation and compulsary registration on ALL your trips for the next 6 months.

Let's just say that if you decide to go on a trip (this includes your daily commute, the trips to the supermarket as well as going out for sporting, bars or drinks) right now, you pay € 1 for each kilometer you walk. However, if you carefully plan your trip 2 months in advance you only pay € 0,02 per kilometer. Careful tho, if you miss your schedule your reservation will be void and you will go back to € 1 per kilometer.

How does that sound?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ How was the NS service between Hofplein and Den Haag HS via the Zoetermeer?


The Zoetermeer Line was a branch line of the Hofpleinlijn. The services from Hofplein to Den Haag Centraal (they stopped going to HS in 1975). At the end it was a half hour interval service with some extra trains during rush hour. After the conversion the frequency was increased in steps, it's now 4 trains every hour on all service hours. It will be increased to 6 trains per hour when the link to the Rotterdam metro is completed. 


~~~
Isn't the TGV Duplex unsuitable to be used to the Netherlands because they have the doors on the lower floor. I heard that it's even not allowed to have a step down from the platform into the train. 

~~~
As for a reservation only Benelux service. I rather see an increase of frequency of the Thalys, people that want to book early can use that service. The new Benelux service could then be just a regular service, maybe with a small surcharge just like the Fyra now. It always has been a train that has been part of the national IC network, I see no reason why this should end when the service is diverted to the HSL.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

MarcVD said:


> Benelux trains are supposed to disappear once the Fyra services with the
> V250 trainsets are in commercial operation. This planned move generates
> indeed a lot of opposition, and political parties are sensitive to that, both
> in Belgium and in the Netherlands. So we will see if this plan finally
> ...


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> One will still be able to travel in non-Fyra trains, changing at Antwerpen, Rotterdam and Leiden/Den Haag NOI.


You mean that piece of shit stopper train between Antwerpen and Roosendaal? Give me a break.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

Had another problematic trip with NS Hispeed this week.

On the way out (north), the previous train was cancelled and while I got a seat, most of the people getting on at Brussels Central didn't. People stood throughout the train for the entire journey to Den Haag.

On the return, the train was showing as delayed by 40 minutes on the screen, but the NS website was saying it was cancelled. Eventually I asked a member of staff at Rotterdam who said it was only running to Roosendaal. She took me to the ticket office and got me to wait in line to get my ticket upgraded to Thalys - else I would have missed my Eurostar connection if I was delayed an hour. The lady in the office said she couldn't give me a new ticket, but if I asked the Thalys train manager when it arrived I could probably ride for free.

I went back to the platform and the original IC train rolled in. The screens were still showing Brussels Zuid, so I asked the driver who said it still was going there. I took a chance - it should have arrived with 5 minutes to spare before the 30 minute Eurostar check in period on that schedule, so I jumped on anyway. Well the train got slower and slower, seemingly stuck behind local stoppers. I made it to Brussels with 11 minutes to spare before the Eurostar departed. Too close in my book - and I wanted to buy something to eat and drink.

That's two trips with NS Hispeed now that are just a bit too much hassle. I've never had a problem with Thalys on that route and I think I will pay the extra to use them in the future.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Slagathor said:


> You mean that piece of shit stopper train between Antwerpen and Roosendaal? Give me a break.


Yes, from Roosendaal. It will still be possible for anyone whining about not wanting to reserve a ticker in advance with excuses like _"I don't know when I'll be done with shopping in Bruxelles and maybe I will have early dinner there, but I still want to be able to decide at the last moment OMG they want me to decide now"_ to travel on trains, if they don't want to drive: Belgian Intercity to Antwerpen + stoptrein international to Roosendaal + Intercity to Rotterdam (and from there to other points in the network).


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## krulstaartje (Nov 4, 2010)

33hz: I had the exact same thing a couple of weeks ago. The OBB-rented coaches broke down at Roosendaal station (doors would not close). I had to wait for the next train which would have a planned 10 min transfer for the 10-minutes last call check-in time (Eurostar lets you do 10 usually if you call/something happens). Delay -> 5 minutes. I took a sprint and made it, as one of the only of the large group of Eurostar travellers supposed to make that connection. It was the last Eurostar of the day, too.

And then the same thing a month before that when the Benelux broke down at Schiphol. By being quick, loud and obnoxious I got a Thalys ride. At first they said they couldn't do it like you write, but after a while they gave in ^^


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

Yes, it doesn't bode well for Railteam if the staff don't know whether you can change to another member company in situations like this.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

33Hz said:


> Yes, it doesn't bode well for Railteam if the staff don't know whether you can change to another member company in situations like this.


Railteam isn't worth much anyway, it's just a marketing name like the airway alliances (such as Star Alliance). The railway companies only cooperate when they really have to.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, from Roosendaal. It will still be possible for anyone whining about not wanting to reserve a ticker in advance with excuses like _"I don't know when I'll be done with shopping in Bruxelles and maybe I will have early dinner there, but I still want to be able to decide at the last moment OMG they want me to decide now"_ to travel on trains, if they don't want to drive: Belgian Intercity to Antwerpen + stoptrein international to Roosendaal + Intercity to Rotterdam (and from there to other points in the network).


Ridiculous hypotheses aside:

The point is that the rail industry these days are trying their best to take everything we hate about air travel and implementing it. Baggage checks, safety checks, rigid reservations.

All of that would be acceptable _if_ trains were faster than planes.

But they're not.

And to worsen the situation, they're abolishing choice. If you wanna take a decent train to Belgium in the future, you're stuck with a "high speed" (which it isn't, as anyone who's ever traveled between Antwerp and Brussels can testify) train that requires you to book a family visit 3 months in advance or pay through the nose for it and you can't take a regular intercity anymore because, why sheesh, that's just gone.

All of which will lead people to... drive a car.

Well done. Really. Excellent business plan.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

You forgot to add losing restaurants and replacing it with crap food...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ... and instead of travelling standing, you wait another hour for the next train.
> 
> How can that be a bad thing?


I know of many people to whom being able to travel standing on an overbooked services in stead of having to take the next one is one of the major advantages of trains.

For the Amsterdam - Brussels trains, don't forget that they don't exclusively serve the Amsterdam - Brussels market. There are a lot of people travelling Rotterdam - Antwerpen for example. Even commuters. Over the high speed line time is about half an hour. People expect such services to be "turn up and go", and if you don't give people what they expect they don't buy your service.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Slagathor said:


> You mean that piece of shit stopper train between Antwerpen and Roosendaal? Give me a break.


Well, that will hopefully improve. The best thing the NMBS can do with that line once long distance services go over the new line is to run a twice hourly local train with modern material, with a schedule that integrates with the twice hourly services to Amsterdam, Zwolle and Vlissingen in Roosendaal. This will improve local services significantly. 
For long distance services the right way to use all that expensive infrastructure would be to run at least a Brussel - Amsterdam IC over the new line, and an Brussel - Antwerpen - Breda one, with stop in Noorderkempen. Let Thalys service the To/From Paris market, with its own tarif schedule, but integrate the other high speed trains in the IC network. Make it possible to reserve seats on those trains, but don't make it compulsory. However, make it clear that if a train is too full that people without reservations can be refused access.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

^^ Finally a sensible comment in this thread.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

33Hz said:


> You forgot to add losing restaurants and replacing it with crap food...


NS removed restaurant cars in 2005 or 2006 after a comprehensive studied showed that train food revenues didn't pay for themselves, and something like 92% of domestic journeys were below 2h30. There were also issues with platform length in certain stations, as new trains ordered by then were longer EMUs.

They replaced restaurants with hundreds ok "Kiosk" stores and other food outlets in stations, some of then in the middle of platforms where there was space. 



Slagathor said:


> The point is that the rail industry these days are trying their best to take everything we hate about air travel and implementing it. Baggage checks, safety checks, rigid reservations.


Baggage and safety checks so longer only exist for Renfe LAV's trains and Eurostar - it was a precondition for the British to authorize passenger operations and the Chunnel construction in first place.



> And to worsen the situation, they're abolishing choice. If you wanna take a decent train to Belgium in the future, you're stuck with a "high speed" (which it isn't, as anyone who's ever traveled between Antwerp and Brussels can testify) train that requires you to book a family visit 3 months in advance or pay through the nose for it and you can't take a regular intercity anymore because, why sheesh, that's just gone.


I am in favor of competition, provided both services are not operationally subsidized (which is the case of Fyra and Benelux Intercity anyway, both quite expensive for European standards). The decision to abolish the Benelux trains was taken by Dutch and Belgians authorities before they started investing in HSL4/HSL-Zuid.



> All of which will lead people to... drive a car.
> 
> Well done. Really. Excellent business plan.


With current fixed prices, it is already cheaper AND faster, except on the worst of peak road traffic, to drive from Rotterdam to Antwerpen or from Den Haag to Bruxelles than take the train if you have 3 passengers and are going/coming from any place further than 20 minutes from one of the stations involved, including parking fees on expensive garages.



K_ said:


> I know of many people to whom being able to travel standing on an overbooked services in stead of having to take the next one is one of the major advantages of trains.


But standing passengers bring discomfort not only for themselves, but to passenger to whom being seated is an important factor. With standing passengers, your ability to move is constrained, and if the train is really crowded, it makes it uncomfortable for everyone, with those bags/suitcases hanging on the hands or arms or standing passengers.



> For the Amsterdam - Brussels trains, don't forget that they don't exclusively serve the Amsterdam - Brussels market. There are a lot of people travelling Rotterdam - Antwerpen for example. Even commuters. Over the high speed line time is about half an hour. People expect such services to be "turn up and go", and if you don't give people what they expect they don't buy your service.


They will be able to buy tickets at the last times on ticket machines with automatic seat assignment. There will be subscription plans in which passengers can get a certain number or free ticket changes without penalties, online, per month. The only thing they will not be able to do is buy a subscription card allowing immediate entrance to a train anytime.



K_ said:


> Well, that will hopefully improve. The best thing the NMBS can do with that line once long distance services go over the new line is to run a twice hourly local train with modern material, with a schedule that integrates with the twice hourly services to Amsterdam, Zwolle and Vlissingen in Roosendaal. This will improve local services significantly.


After the opening of HSL Zuid, there will be no more twice hourly Vlissingen-Amsterdam trains on their current route, but only a watered down Intercity service via Haarlem. Indeed, there will be no more Amsterdam-Rotterdam trains via Schiphol without a change, but only Fyra 



> Let Thalys service the To/From Paris market, with its own tarif schedule, but integrate the other high speed trains in the IC network. Make it possible to reserve seats on those trains, but don't make it compulsory. However, make it clear that if a train is too full that people without reservations can be refused access.


Thalys trains have load factors above 80%, most trains departure Rotterdam almost sold out, and the service marketed as a "better" alternative to flying between Schiphol and Paris. Standing passengers would taint that brand image they so carefully built.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> NS removed restaurant cars in 2005 or 2006 after a comprehensive studied showed that train food revenues didn't pay for themselves, and something like 92% of domestic journeys were below 2h30.


And SBB did the oposite. Reintroduced restaurant cars on all IC services in 2004.



> I am in favor of competition, provided both services are not operationally subsidized (which is the case of Fyra and Benelux Intercity anyway, both quite expensive for European standards). The decision to abolish the Benelux trains was taken by Dutch and Belgians authorities before they started investing in HSL4/HSL-Zuid.


But you seem to be against making money, as you keep on suggesting that the companies should ignore what their customers want...




> But standing passengers bring discomfort not only for themselves, but to passenger to whom being seated is an important factor. With standing passengers, your ability to move is constrained, and if the train is really crowded, it makes it uncomfortable for everyone, with those bags/suitcases hanging on the hands or arms or standing passengers.


which is why I would not let to many standing passengers on the train. I did write that if a train gets to crowded passengers without reservations should be refused access.




> They will be able to buy tickets at the last times on ticket machines with automatic seat assignment. There will be subscription plans in which passengers can get a certain number or free ticket changes without penalties, online, per month. The only thing they will not be able to do is buy a subscription card allowing immediate entrance to a train anytime.


One can indeed hope this will be possible. But given the current state of NMBS ticket vending machines I'm a bit worried here.



> Thalys trains have load factors above 80%, most trains departure Rotterdam almost sold out, and the service marketed as a "better" alternative to flying between Schiphol and Paris. Standing passengers would taint that brand image they so carefully built.


Thalys should do what they want, and they can compete with the other services. However the expensive, tax payer funded HSL Zuid should serve the base IC network too. Just like the NBS Bern - Olten does in Switzerland.


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## krulstaartje (Nov 4, 2010)

I don't understand the anti-reservation tendencies. As an example, I usually book my London-Amsterdam trips on Eurostar about a week and a half in advance, not three months. I pay very low fares, usually from £59 (the cheapest possible) to £110 (the youth fare I pay if super-saver fares ran out).

If you really place that much value on planning trips close to the trip date, then yes, you're going to be charged that extra value. I don't think this is a 'vast majority of people' opinion. If this is really true we'll find out soon enough, as the NS is not against making money and will run a trial with unreserved seats if people seem to be really wanting those.

TBH it's the fact-free politics surrounding these issues that annoys me. This issue is very, very easy to find out with a few seconds of research. I think it will turn out that, like many issues, the Dutch (we) just complain in advance because we don't like change but are in the end completely fine with what it turned out to be.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

krulstaartje said:


> I don't understand the anti-reservation tendencies. As an example, I usually book my London-Amsterdam trips on Eurostar about a week and a half in advance, not three months. I pay very low fares, usually from £59 (the cheapest possible) to £110 (the youth fare I pay if super-saver fares ran out).
> 
> If you really place that much value on planning trips close to the trip date, then yes, you're going to be charged that extra value. I don't think this is a 'vast majority of people' opinion. If this is really true we'll find out soon enough, as the NS is not against making money and will run a trial with unreserved seats if people seem to be really wanting those.
> 
> TBH it's the fact-free politics surrounding these issues that annoys me. This issue is very, very easy to find out with a few seconds of research. I think it will turn out that, like many issues, the Dutch (we) just complain in advance because we don't like change but are in the end completely fine with what it turned out to be.


Apparently, many Thalys intermediate fares can routinely be found even in the night before travel date. It is my guess that some people just feel "cheated" they are paying more for exactly the same service "just because they bought the service at the last minute".

However, as airlines have learned, last-minute traveled may whine, but they will keep travelling, regardless of any perceived unfairness on last-minute fares.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

krulstaartje said:


> I don't understand the anti-reservation tendencies. As an example, I usually book my London-Amsterdam trips on Eurostar about a week and a half in advance, not three months. I pay very low fares, usually from £59 (the cheapest possible) to £110 (the youth fare I pay if super-saver fares ran out).


Do you also book Amsterdam - Rotterdam in advance?


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## krulstaartje (Nov 4, 2010)

Depends on my specific travel needs, I sometimes take Thalys for the Brussels - Amsterdam part and sometimes take the IC. When doing the latter, I've never taken another IC than I planned to, so I wouldn't mind reserving seats, it wouldn't change my journeys at all. Actually, quite a large proportion of the international travellers on the IC to Brussels already have reserved tickets for a specific train or (by a connecting service) are required to take one specific train anyway.

Note that from an economic perspective, reserved seats are just a form of (or a mechanism to allow) price discrimination. Price discrimination allows higher occupancy rates, and from an equity perspective benefits those willing or able to pay only low prices at the expense of those paying higher prices.

But, again, to conclude: I'm not really a proponent if it isn't necessary, but I can't see the huuuuge downsides some people suggest either. That's why they should run a trial


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

^^ You're not answering the question, are you a politician or something like that ?
The question was: are you booking a trip of 60km/36min in advance?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

krulstaartje said:


> Note that from an economic perspective, reserved seats are just a form of (or a mechanism to allow) price discrimination. Price discrimination allows higher occupancy rates, and from an equity perspective benefits those willing or able to pay only low prices at the expense of those paying higher prices.


I'm not against price discrimination. But you should realise that there are different ways of achieving it. And it doesn't always work the same way in every market.
Would compulsory reservation based price discrimination work on Utrecht - Eindhoven? If you agree it doesn't, then why would you think it would work in Rotterdam - Antwerpen? Yes, they are in different countries, but that's only because a tragic accident... The border between the Netherlands and Flanders is getting less relevant every day.


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## krulstaartje (Nov 4, 2010)

@Pietje: I thought K_ was asking about the non-Eurostar portion of my regular journey... but for your question, all my rail travel in the UK is booked in advance, even tiny trips of about 30m. I don't really mind, and pretty much everyone seems to be doing it. I've never done so in the Netherlands because it hadn't been possible while I was permanently living there (and I was a student with OV).

@K_: it's a trade-off between the benefits of price discrimination versus the transaction costs imposed by reservations. The latter are fixed per trip, so for short trips it'd wouldn't be worth it. Where that line is, is quite hard to tell. I don't think Rotterdam - Antwerp is 'clearly' or 'definitely' not worth putting reservations on. As I said before... they should do a trial.


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## Proterra (Mar 17, 2011)

From what I know about the Netherlands, a reservation system wouldn't work because of the train system functioning more like a subway system than an actual train system. Some people might have their entire life planned out, and will be able to reserve all their travel days or weeks in advance, but when I was there, I often made ad hoc trips to the next city because of a good party going on there, or I would travel Maastricht-Nijmegen or Nijmegen-Amsterdam over Den Bosch, instead of Venlo or Arnhem, because of delays or overcrowding on the other lines. This is possible in NL because the trains function more like metro's or suburban railways... 

My impression is, that by introducing compulsory reservations on any intercity or "local" high speed train in that country, one would more or less achieve that more people would take a car to go somewhere, because the flexibility the current system offers would cease to exist. The only thing I could see as what might be beneficial in the Dutch railway network would be to adopt a system similar to the German one; where there are three train categories, with different pricing, and the possibility for reservations on request for the highest train categories. That way there could be a system where stoptrains, sneltrains and intercities (dubbeldekkers?) would be similar to RB and RE, IC+ (between Limburg and Randstad - does it still run?) would become the new class of IC, and the Fyra/ICE would be the highest category. For the latter two categories it should be possible to reserve in advance and pay less, but it shouldn't be compulsory...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

There are no more IC+, and reservations will be compulsory only on International Fyra services to Buxelles Midi, not on the domestic Fyra Breda-Amsterdam, AFAIK, where they will remain optional - though they should.

In any case, compulsory reservations are not the end of the world. People can always buy a ticket 4 min. before departure, for instance, and choose random seat assignment in 10 minutes. It is not going to happen, though, in regular train services, just on Fyra.


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## woutero (Jan 14, 2008)

^^
When I worked in Rotterdam (living in Amsterdam), I used Fyra twice daily (when it ran). But my schedule depends on the work load, so it's not easy to plan ahead. What I wanted to be able to do is go to the train station at the last minute, run for the train and be on my way home after a day of work. 

I had an NS train pass, and bought the fyra supplement in advance only to stamp/validate it on the platform/in the tunnel.

If I would need to be at the station 5 mins in advance in order to make a reservation, that is 25% of the 20 mins gained by using Fyra instead of conventional rail. If there is a line for the reservation machine, I would risk missing the Fyra, adding to the uncertainty.

Making a reservation just before leaving the office, and then finding out the train is cancelled (not uncommon) means jumping through hoops to get your money back (= time lost), which is not an attractive option either.

THE (only) selling point of Fyra is time gain.
Time gain = minimum hassle = minimum transactions = no reservation. 

If the Eurostar train is cancelled, you wait for the next one. There is no alternative. If a Fyra is cancelled, you take a regular train, and you have to deal with the hassle of getting your money back.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Well, that option will take you longer, as Intercity trains from Rotterdam-Amsterdam will be routed through Haarlem and stop in 6 extra "status upgraded" stations. So the time advantage for Fyra will be like 42 minutes.


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## Ranor88 (May 20, 2011)

Maybe a sollution to the reservation issue as well as the ridership issue is to make fyra partially reservation only for example half the cars and make the rest just like a regular train i think this way it will overflow with people


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Well, that option will take you longer, as Intercity trains from Rotterdam-Amsterdam will be routed through Haarlem and stop in 6 extra "status upgraded" stations. So the time advantage for Fyra will be like 42 minutes.


Which is just a dirty trick by NS to force passengers into Fyra or face longer travel in the further eruding of the intercity train concept.



Ranor88 said:


> Maybe a sollution to the reservation issue as well as the ridership issue is to make fyra partially reservation only for example half the cars and make the rest just like a regular train i think this way it will overflow with people


Reserving a seat in Fyra is already possible in one carriage.


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## woutero (Jan 14, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> Which is just a dirty trick by NS to force passengers into Fyra or face longer travel in the further eruding of the intercity train concept.


It may be, but the increase of travel time as Suburbanist suggests is not true. The re-route via Haarlem and the extra stops adds 7 minutes between Amsterdam CS and Rotterdam CS (same travel time as the current Sneltrein serving that route). 

For many travellers (for instance me) who use Amsterdam-Zuid, the increase in travel time will be less, because they can change in Leiden to the intercity to Schiphol, Amsterdam-Zuid and Lelystad.


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## slipperydog (Jul 19, 2009)




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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Coccodrillo said:


> There is a gain of time but a loss o frequency, it's a shame, in some cases overall it's not an improvement.


The biggest loss is flexibility... Now that Antwerpen and Rotterdam ( not to mention Breda) are within commuter distance of each other commuting actually got harder.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ 60 min waiting at station + 60 min actual vehicle movement is better than 120 min on transit.


Every transportation specialist knows that this is the other way round.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ 60 min waiting at station + 60 min actual vehicle movement is better than 120 min on transit.


Not for me as in Milano Centrale there are few benches. I sit on the floor also here, beside that on the train.

I haven't heard positive comments from my relatives and friends using Cislapino trains (beside the delays, apparently they preferred 90' trains every hour than 60' trips every two hours).


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Coccodrillo said:


> I haven't heard positive comments from my relatives and friends using Cislapino trains (beside the delays, apparently they preferred 90' trains every hour than 60' trips every two hours).


In this example you used, the reduction on travel time was LESS than the increase on average interval between departures.

On Bruxelles-Amsterdam services, the (temporary) reduction on travel time is GREATER than the increase on interval between departures.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> The biggest loss is flexibility... Now that Antwerpen and Rotterdam ( not to mention Breda) are within commuter distance of each other commuting actually got harder.


They will probably come up with some hybrid pass that you pay a fixed amount and can then quickly reserve a seat with your smartphone or on a ticket machine as close as possible to departure (so it creates a predictable financial cost without removing the ability of the railway to carry ONLY seated passengers).

Moreover, commuting passengers have predictable schedules and can just buy a lot of tickets with maximum anticipation and low fares anyway.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> They will probably come up with some hybrid pass that you pay a fixed amount and can then quickly reserve a seat with your smartphone or on a ticket machine as close as possible to departure (so it creates a predictable financial cost without removing the ability of the railway to carry ONLY seated passengers).


Nope, there won't be any passes when Fyra starts to operate. Also, nothing is known about future plans for passes butI fear for the worst. Once again, travelers are being screwed over.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> Nope, there won't be any passes when Fyra starts to operate. Also, nothing is known about future plans for passes butI fear for the worst. Once again, travelers are being screwed over.


They can always lower prices or sell more tickets with discounts if ridership is too low.

Morevoer, the new option of travelling with the regional train from Roosendaal will increase total travel time by 23 minutes compared to Benelux trains. So there will be an option (I think the 4/5 minute transfer time in Roosendaal might be problematic, though).


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

SNCB and NS told that at least 20% of the seats on each Fyra train will be sold at the lowest Supersaver fare of € 25 (for Bruxelles Midi-Amsterdam Centraal and lower correspondent fares to other sectors). 

That should placate some of the critics that were saying that "only a few" seats a day would be sold on the cheaper fares.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*Seat plans for V250*

These are the seat plan s for the V250










.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The go-ahead signal has been given for Amsterdam - Brussels, tickets will be on sale from tomorrow. From april 2013 there will be a service Antwerp - Breda every two hours, at the current price, without reservation or any ticket price flexibility.

Woohoo, I guess?


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> From april 2013 there will be a bi-hourly service Antwerp - Brussels, at the current price, without reservation or any ticket price flexibility.


I don't get that one. The bi-hourly service you are speaking about already
exists now, it was created decades ago.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

That's because I was making a mistake because I had to hurry up. 

I meant to say: Antwerp - Breda. Once every 2 hours.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> That's because I was making a mistake because I had to hurry up.
> 
> I meant to say: Antwerp - Breda. Once every 2 hours.


Aha ! OK... And with which rolling stock ? There is a free V250 for that ?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The rolling stock will be V250 indeed. 1 V250 is needed for the service, and they have that available.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ At what price will they sell those tickets? The Breda-Anterpen distance over HSL Zuid/4 is 11km shorter than via Roosendaal.

At the end of the day, I think Breda is the Dutch city that benefited the most from HSL. Travel times to Amsterdam were cut almost by half, putting the city within easy reach of Amsterdam. It will also be very close to Antwerpen with the new train.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The ticket price for Breda - Antwerpen will remain equal to what it is today, not taking into account the yearly fare increases.

And I think you're right, Breda is one of the cities that benefited the most from the HSL-Zuid. Especially Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid are much eachier to reach than they were before.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ But will they keep those different prices? Will it accept normal NS and SNCB subscriptions?

For instance, today these are the prices Breda-Antwerpen

- normal one-way fare: € 12,60
- superdagretourkaart: € 8,60
- met NS korting: € 10,00
and there are other fares as well...

If so, depending on how they time Breda-Rotterdam services, you could start seeing people using Fyra from A'dam/R'dam to Breda + Fyra to Anvers and then trains from there to Bruxelles, Gent, Louvain etc. instead of using the Fyra all the way down. Which could be a better proposition than travelling from anywhere but Zeeland (and Bergen op Zoom) to Roosendaal and taking the regional train for those who feel aggravated by the need to buy tickets in advance.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

No information is known yet about tariffs and passes, but it's not unlikely that NS+SNCB subscriptions will be valid.

This will (temporarily) also be the case for Fyra to Brussels: if you have an NS subscription and an SNCB subscription, you can buy a reservation (costs € 4) to travel with Fyra. The reservation allows you to take the next train if you miss the one your reservation is valid for. Do note that this is temporary, until NS Hispeed and SNCB Europe have come up with a "Fyra Frequent Traveller" proposition.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ They could come up with some smartphone app that allows quick reservation of seats. That way, you end the "OMG I want to travel without a fixed time to return" whining.


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## woutero (Jan 14, 2008)

That already exists. I am not sure about how easy it is to change reservations with this app, but you can book tickets on the go with this app and though the mobile website:
http://www.nshispeed.nl/nl/waar-treintickets-kopen/nshispeed-app-en-mobiele-site


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> We should get rid of ATB in favor of ERTMS


Hear, hear. Which also applies to KVB, Memor, TBL, PZB, ASFA, ZUB, TPWS, AWS and ATC.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ ATB is outdated and improving it would lock-in Netherlands on 160 km/h territory for another 30 years.
> 
> We should get rid of ATB in favor of ERTMS


It would have been a simple upgrade of the ATB-EG without too much investments. It could have sped up some lines straight away as a step up before installing ERTMS. 

The reason why it wasn't certified on more lines was the ERTMS. It was presented as a new system and not as an upgrade, and Europe only allows new ERTMS based systems and upgrades of existing systems.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Technically, the trick used for Thalys was placing ATB-NG beacons, using those to tell the train it's okay to go 160 km/h. ATB-NG is a proprietary system (owned by Alstom) just like ATB-Vv and TBL1+.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> Hear, hear. Which also applies to KVB, Memor, TBL, PZB, ASFA, ZUB, TPWS, AWS and ATC.


Of course.

All national-based systems should be ditched in favor of ERTMS. It should be mandatory that any train manufactured in EU or imported into EU is fit with ERTMS, as to avoid the vendor lock-in trap that currently slows down the adoption of the ETCS


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

For the development of one internal rail system within the EU, harmonizing the safety systems is key. Luckily, more and more countries are working on migration strategies: Denmark is well underway with the nationwide introduction of ERTMS, the Netherlands are working on a planning to start the implementation from 2016 onwards, Belgium is working on it as well. 

More big changes are ahead:

- Siim Kallas, the Vice President of the EU responsible for mobility and transport, has announced that he wants complete seperation of infrastructure managers and railway operators from 2023 onwards. This would mean the end for "integrated" companies such as DB AG (DB Netze) and ÖBB (ÖBB Infrastruktur AG). It's not unlikely that SBB will also be broken up, because Switzerland usually follows EU regulations related to transport and mobility.
- Strengthening of the European Railway Agency: several of the responsibilities of the national safety authorities (such as IL&T in the Netherlands, DVIS in Belgium, etc) would be transferred to the ERA. Rolling stock admission could be one of those responsibilities.

Currently, road and aviation have big advantages over rail as regulations are harmonized and technical hurdles have mostly been taken away. The aim of these measures is to harmonize the market to make it more competitive. This should also make it easier for newcomers to get their trains on the tracks.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Of course.
> 
> All national-based systems should be ditched in favor of ERTMS. It should be mandatory that any train manufactured in EU or imported into EU is fit with ERTMS, as to avoid the vendor lock-in trap that currently slows down the adoption of the ETCS


I don't think that any rolling stock manufacturer is going to waste resources on designing trains that can't be fitted with ETCS...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*Fare arrangements in place until May 1 2013*

So HSA extended to 1/5/2013 arrangements that should expire on 8/1. I think it is a step in the wrong direction, but in any case this is how things stand:

1. Supersaver fares can be bought up to 23.59 the day before travelling. They cost € 25 for Amsterdam-Bruxelles*, are non-refundable and non-exchangeable

2. A "Jump-On" ticket is being offered for € 39*, allowing travel on any train on the day the ticket was purchased, without a seat reservation though - only on 2nd class.

*There is a non-linear (on distance) price scale for shorter sectors: Rotterdam-Antewerpen costs € 20 with Super Saver, € 25 with Jump-On.

Meanwhile, the lower-than-planned domestic Fyra fare supplements were made permanent (from €0,70 Amsterdam-Schiphol to € 3,70 Breda-Amsterdam). These are prices 60% lower than the initial fare plans unveiled in 2009.

I think these are bad decisions that will greatly hurt the bottom line of HSA, which is already struggling with its finances. Reasons for it:

- they are foregoing a lot of money by essentially not charging the higher full fares of € 54 for 2nd class same-day travel. The Supersaver fares are cheaper than older Benelux fares and were never intended to be widely available (original plan was: discount up to 7-day advanced purchase, limited to 25% of seat capacity of each train)

- changing for a new route with brand-new trains was the only opportunity to make a change that eliminated unreserved travelling between Netherlands and Belgium (save for regional border trains). Once they allow this to continue until May, it will become a political third-rail to eliminate the possibility even when the full V250 fleet is deployed

- without compulsory reservation, another expected cash cow for HSA disappears: passengers willing to travel on 2nd class but forced to buy expensive 1st class tickets because 2nd class seats were full. It means, coupled with other consequences, many passengers that would be obliged to pay € 74 for same-day travel on busy trains will be effectively travelling for € 39, and maybe even getting a free 1st class seat as there is virtually no standing room possible on V250. 

- passengers will treat the roll-back of Jump-On fares in May as a "fare increase" from € 39 to € 54, making it politically problematic

*Summing it all, HSA is drastically foregoing revenue and putting itself in a financial position where it will be not able to pay franchisee fees to the Dutch and Belgian governments, unless it puts in place politically unacceptable fare increases brought upon themselves. HSA management is essentially expecting the two national government to bail it out by creating a situation where charging the high fares it needs to pay back the franchise contract will just be not politically acceptable*

This becomes clear once you realize passenger are travelling for cheaper prices on a train that is up to 44% faster!


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I agree with you that HSA's price policy is less than optimal for HSA itself.

However, as we've seen in the past when Fyra first started operating between Amsterdam and Rotterdam, passengers were unwilling to pay HSA's fares (which were 60% higher than NS domestic fares). When Fyra Brussels started to operate, it didn't get even 1/3rd of the occupancy rate of the old Benelux train despite being faster. Passengers were unwilling to pay for the fare increase, once again. As a result, the regional train from Roosendaal is overcrowded and the parking place in Essen is nowadays mostly filled with Dutch cars.

Either HSA continues with their high prices (and empty trains) and thereby going bankrupt, or they adjust their prices hoping to attract more passengers. Given that empty trains would be bad for the public image of HSA as well as the ministry of Infrastructure, HSA is more or less forced to do something.

As the Dutch say: "het is pompen of verzuipen".


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> I think it is a step in the wrong direction [...]


If you think that this is a wrong idea it will certainly be a very successful one!

(sorry I didn't resist...)


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> Either HSA continues with their high prices (and empty trains) and thereby going bankrupt, or they adjust their prices hoping to attract more passengers. Given that empty trains would be bad for the public image of HSA as well as the ministry of Infrastructure, HSA is more or less forced to do something.


I used Fyra last week, it was just a one-trip experience, but the train was quite full. I'd say 80% full or so.

For all practical matters, Fyra is now a bargain compared to the old situation. € 25 for travelling the next day with fixed departure, or € 39 for departure anytime. I think the fare for the Benelux Amsterdam-Bruxelles was € 37. So travelers are getting a very good deal, considering they are, at the worst case, paying the same for a train that is newer and much faster.

So I'm left with the impression HSA just gave up and decided to operate a cheaper service, placating public opinion opposition who felt entitled to a subsidized train, and then it will leave the Dutch and Belgian governments holding the bag for the dozens of million of euros HSA should pay them each year... which means, indirectly, the Treasury will assume the whole debt taken for construction of HSL Zuid/4 because HSA will not be able to raise money to pay for it.

But HSA is playing for the crowds there, like "if we are going to be bankrupt, let's underpay the government instead of charge more for travelers". Which plays into the population resentment about the whole V250 delay...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

End of the line for the V250?

Today, 3 V250 trains broke down. The cause of these breakdowns are mysterious damages found to the platings underneath the trains. The infrastructure has been inspected visually in an attempt to find a probable cause, to no avail. No such damages were found on the Thalys rolling stock.

Since discovering the damages, all Fyra services to and from Brussels have been cancelled for the rest of the day. It's not sure yet if the V250 will resume operations tomorrow.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> End of the line for the V250?
> Since discovering the damages, all Fyra services to and from Brussels have been cancelled for the rest of the day. It's not sure yet if the V250 will resume operations tomorrow.


Last I heard is that Fyra services are suspended with no date announced
for the service resuming. Fyra "ask customers to postpone their travel
plans", proposes an alternative made of the Fyra hauled trains (i.e. the
good old Benelux hardware) till Breda, then bus to Antwerp, and then
domestic SNCB train to Brussels. All tickets sold can be refunded.

Political bodies in Belgium also start requiring the return of the previous
service, like it already happened in the Netherlands.

End of the farce ? Wait and see...


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Perhaps at this point it makes sense to write down the losses, try to get some money back from Ansaldo-Breda and order new trains from some reliable source?


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Is something said by a lot of people, especially on news-sites.. Buy new trains, that fixes the problem..

Only forgetting that new trains take 3 yrs to begin service...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Trains are not cars or trucks that you just to a dealer (used or new) an buy a bunch of them. Even if they placed a new order TODAY (and that is a big IF, because HSA is on shaky financial grounds to do so, and it would take at least 4 months for the most short possible technical, operational and legal proceedings mandatory for these purchases), it would take at least 2 1/2 years to have trains running on commercial operations barring any problems.

The only thing I fear is that they downgrade the new line to allow older trains running there.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

da_scotty said:


> Is something said by a lot of people, especially on news-sites.. Buy new trains, that fixes the problem..
> 
> Only forgetting that *new trains take 3 yrs to begin service...*


Sure, but it just might be the least bad of all possible choices...


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> Trains are not cars or trucks that you just to a dealer (used or new) an buy a bunch of them. Even if they placed a new order TODAY (and that is a big IF, because HSA is on shaky financial grounds to do so, and it would take at least 4 months for the most short possible technical, operational and legal proceedings mandatory for these purchases), it would take at least 2 1/2 years to have trains running on commercial operations barring any problems.
> 
> The only thing I fear is that they downgrade the new line to allow older trains running there.


And you'd propose to do what?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Sunfuns said:


> And you'd propose to do what?


Fix the defects that are preventing the normal operation of the V250.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> Fix the defects that are preventing the normal operation of the V250.


Obvious solution, but it could be that they are so flawed that fixing them to a reliable working condition is technically not feasible. If this sort of breakdown were to reappear every few months after "fixing" them then it would be cheaper to retire them immediately and start from a beginning 3-4 years later.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ And then revert 10 years of construction and commission of the HSL-Zuid?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> These complaints about prices of Fyra are, at least temporarily, bogus.
> 
> Fares bought up to the day before cost only €25, and they have that jump-on ticket that costs still only € 39.
> 
> So no room for prices complaint about that.


That's still very expensive for train that doesn't ride.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> I don't think NMBS needs 20 rakes for IC-A and IC-O. And I do see them on other services as well


There are 163 cars which are all engaged in formations of 12. So there
are certainly not 20 rakes in use. Even with the few I10 which have been
added after having been upgraded for 200 km/h.

And no, they are not used anywhere else than on services using the L2
between Leuven and Liege.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Out of curiosity: are all 12 cars really necessary? Or are they there just for rush hour demands and are they mostly empty during off-peak services?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ But "superdagretour" were special tickets, not regular fares. You can still travel via Roosendaal.

It is like complaining about those dagkaarten that were abolished in Netherlands last December...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> And no, they are not used anywhere else than on services using the L2
> between Leuven and Liege.


There used to be I11 on used on Antwerpen - Oostende. So that's changed.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

K_ said:


> What are you referring too? I am not aware of any recent delivery by Stadler that one could consider a "major failure".


The Kiss trains for Austria's Westbahn are.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

KingNick said:


> The Kiss trains for Austria's Westbahn are.


In what way are they a major failure?
I am only aware of problems with the doors on the new high speed line, when they are crossing another high speed train. I would not call that a major failure, as I'm sure it will be fixed soon.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

I think we can all agree that the problems that the Stadler Kiss Westbahn trains are nothing compared to the problems of the AnsaldoBreda V250 Fyra trains. Calling it a "major failure" in this thread doesn't really make a big impression, we can only wish that we only had those problems with our Fyra trains.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ The V250 project has not been having the smoothest sailing (!), but it is not that big of a failure. For instance, the ICE (1) was indeed a flawed project that killed more than 100 because of a faulty brake disc design... But even on my optimism I'm starting to think AnsaldoBreda will not have a future as an Intercity/high-speed train manufacturer


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> What are you referring too? I am not aware of any recent delivery by Stadler that one could consider a "major failure".


Stadler let down the ODEG by delayed delivery of the KISS train-sets.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

flierfy said:


> Stadler let down the ODEG by delayed delivery of the KISS train-sets.


Stadler was not late in delivering the trains. It was the approval process that somehow got delayed. 

And again, there is a difference between "teething problems" and "small delays in delivery/approval", which happen to all rolling stock producers, and the gross incompetence Ansaldo-Breda has shown...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

flierfy said:


> Stadler let down the ODEG by delayed delivery of the KISS train-sets.


The problems with the KISS trains for ODEG are related to the homologation, Stadler saw similar problems with the FLIRT trains for Eurobahn: both EBA and IVW caused delays in admission because of some missing documents.

A recent rolling stock 'disaster' is the Bombardier-built TALENT 2.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Some people are now comparing the issues with V250 with problems of commissioning the IC4 in Denmark, when they are totally different!

=====================

Question: could, theoretically, the ICEs used on Amsterdam-Koln service also be used to travel on HSL-Zuid and Belgium?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The V250 project has not been having the smoothest sailing (!), but it is not that big of a failure. For instance, the ICE (1) was indeed a flawed project that killed more than 100 because of a faulty brake disc design... But even on my optimism I'm starting to think AnsaldoBreda will not have a future as an Intercity/high-speed train manufacturer


The Eschede ICE dissaster was not caused by a faulty disk brake design but because the wheels had a new design with a rubber damping ring between the steel core of the wheel and the steel running tire that turned out to be very prone to cracks. Together with a substandard maintenance/inspection by the DB, who should have noticed the cracks on both sides of the tire this terrible accident could have happened. 

But since the trains have kept running with traditional wheels after the accident, even though not completely unproblematic it can't be seen as a complete failures. 

With Belgium now close to cancel their part of the V250 order it does seem to be the end of the line for this train, because that would practically mean that the NS sets will also never be used again on the services to Brussels. I would consider that a complete failure. And with the string of failures and major problems with other AnsaldoBreda trains it's not that strange AnsaldoBreda has gotten a bad reputation that now works against them with the V250 problems.


And yes the ICEs can be used on the HSL Zuid, I believe they did do test runs with them on the line some years ago. But that's not likely since the 3 NS owned sets run in the ICE3M pool together with the DB sets. The NS cannot just pull them out of their to use them on the HSL Zuid. Just like they can't use the 2 NS owned Thalys sets.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

K_ said:


> In what way are they a major failure?
> I am only aware of problems with the doors on the new high speed line, when they are crossing another high speed train. I would not call that a major failure, as I'm sure it will be fixed soon.


They're not pressure tight either and therefore highly uncomfortable in tunnels not to speak about the doors, which could have killed people if it wasn't for some small bolts to hold them back.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

K_ said:


> Stadler was not late in delivering the trains. It was the approval process that somehow got delayed.
> 
> And again, there is a difference between "teething problems" and "small delays in delivery/approval", which happen to all rolling stock producers, and the gross incompetence Ansaldo-Breda has shown...


Trains were delivered on time, but they didn't meet EBA's requirements is not what I'd consider a delivery on time.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

It just shows that all manufactures their fair share of problems, especially since trains have become much more complicated with all the electronics that are used nowadays that are usually the cause for approval delays.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I hope HSA can be saved, even if it has to order more trains! Else, NS and SNCB will be under pressure to order sub-par rolling stock to operate services on HSL Zuid/4, without hte distinctive features of Fyra, and that will set train travel 20 years back.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Fyra put an English travel advice on its website, finally (translation of the Dutch one actually)



> *Fyra service temporarily suspended: travel advice for 19, 20 and 21 January*
> Due to adverse weather conditions and resulting damage to Fyra rolling stock, Fyra train services between Belgium and The Netherlands have been suspended until at least 21 January for safety reasons.
> 
> Fyra strongly advises travellers to postpone their journeys to a later date. Fyra tickets for the suspended train services will be refunded free of charge or can be changed to a later travel date (dates may be subject to availability) without incurring costs.
> ...


Since it's late 19th already, I think they will resume runs on 22nd. Hopefully.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> Stadler was not late in delivering the trains. It was the approval process that somehow got delayed.


Of course they are late in delivering these train-sets. Stadler offered ready-to-use train-sets by the end of last year after all. These train-sets, however, just are not ready. Whether this failure seems minor compared to Ansaldo-Breda's short-comings is rather academic. The ODEG was forced to run botched-up second hand rolling stock. Pretty much the opposite to what they were promised by Stadler.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> Out of curiosity: are all 12 cars really necessary? Or are they there just for rush hour demands and are they mostly empty during off-peak services?


During off-peak times, 8 cars would be enough, at the exception of nice
weather days in summer, where all trains are packed with one-day tourists
rushing to sea-side. A few years ago, consists varied during the day but
now SNCB decided against that and operates 12 car consists for the whole
day. I suspect - but have never witnessed it - that in the late evening, half
of the consist is just closed for passengers.

And regarding the usage of those cars outside L2, it's true that they once
ran on Antwerp-Oostende service, but that was before the creation of
IC O which claimed all the available cars. Now Antwerp-Oostende workings
are essentially made out of M6 double deckers.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> Fyra put an English travel advice on its website, finally (translation of the Dutch one actually)
> 
> 
> 
> Since it's late 19th already, I think they will resume runs on 22nd. Hopefully.


That's a lame excuse of Fyra who doesn't want to admit that their new trains
are a failure. Current weather conditions in Belgium and the Netherlands have
nothing unusual for that period of the year : temperature between -5 and 0
°C, moderate winds, and a few inches of snow. All trains used in this part of
Europe must be able to cope with such a weather by design. If V250 sets
can't, draw your own conclusions.

It's very unlikely that Fyra service will resume that fast, anyway. The SSCIF
will not allow them back without being fully convinced that the trains are 
safe. It will be quite difficult to prove with a train that apparently leaves
parts and bits on the track behind it.


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*AnsaldoBreda December pess release*

Ansaldo Breda is not taking any responsibilities for faulty trains.

In December, this is what they wrote



> *Fyra’s faults not caused by train inefficiencies*
> 
> The start of the high-speed train V250, between Belgium and the Netherlands, has demonstrated the technological level of the High-Speed products of AnsaldoBreda, an Italian company specialized in the production of all type of vehicles for the rail transport.
> 
> ...


Let's wait to say what they say about the recent hiccups.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Question: could, theoretically, the ICEs used on Amsterdam-Koln service also be used to travel on HSL-Zuid and Belgium?


Technically the ICE-3M trains can run on the HSL-Zuid. However, this won't happen: there is no spare ICE-3M rolling stock available as there have been some incidents in the last couple of years which led to the loss of trains.

Since the Velaro D is (still) delayed the capacity offered by the ICE-3M sets is badly needed - sometimes international services are axed because DB needs the sets for domestic service. Replacement trains and/or buses are provided then.



MarcVD said:


> During off-peak times, 8 cars would be enough, at the exception of nice
> weather days in summer, where all trains are packed with one-day tourists
> rushing to sea-side. A few years ago, consists varied during the day but
> now SNCB decided against that and operates 12 car consists for the whole
> ...


To me, having consists of 12 coaches running all day long sounds like a waste of rolling stock. It could be put to better use. During rush hour, additional capacity could be added in the form of a "voortrein" / "piekuurtrein".


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ I think rail companies save money by not having dedicated personnel and yards to re-configure trains three times a day.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

It's SNCB we're talking about - yards and shunting activities are the least of their concern. 

NS is expecting that it might take up to several months before the V250 trains are to re-enter service. Meanwhile AnsaldoBreda has apologized to the client and the passengers on Twitter.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> To me, having consists of 12 coaches running all day long sounds like a waste of rolling stock. It could be put to better use. During rush hour, additional capacity could be added in the form of a "voortrein" / "piekuurtrein".


Well during off-peak, there is plenty of rolling stock to waste anyway. If this
was allocated to other services, it means no 200 km/h stock would be available
to absorb the load during rush hour, the extra trains would hence have to go
via the old line. Also, remember, we have severe line congestion problems
during rush hours on every line converging to Brussels, and specially on the
North-South link. So multiplying trains is not an option.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> It's SNCB we're talking about - yards and shunting activities are the least of their concern.


What Suburbanist meant, and I agree with him, is that SNCB is today very 
focused on trimming HR costs. Cutting rakes in two after morning peak,
re-forming them in the afternoon, and cutting them again in the evening
require people and valuable train driver's time (which is a scarce resource
over here). So they prefer running with full consists all day long, electricity
being cheaper than human costs. That generates additional wear and tear,
though, and I don't know whether and how they factored this in the equation.




AlexNL said:


> NS is expecting that it might take up to several months before the V250 trains are to re-enter service. Meanwhile AnsaldoBreda has apologized to the client and the passengers on Twitter.


Interesting, this means that AB publicly and officially admits a responsibility
for this failure. This more or less opens the possibility for NS and SNCB
to cancel their order with minimal (hopefully nil) charges.


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

My point is: while you can easily detach a double-EMU (such as the VIRM) in less than 20 minutes and then just drive and park the one of the EMUs in a matter of no more than 10 minutes, the same cannot be said of loco-hauled consists. A good example of this is the shunting they do with the "old" Fyra trains in Breda. It is awful to watch how long does it take, at least 4 people involved, and then they need to shift the loco to the front of the next train etc.

If a train company has its rolling stock (something that is increasingly more expensive) stretched out, it will probably require them to have extra trains to be able to dismantle them mid-day and reassemble 6 hours alter for afternoon peak. Maybe it's better just to wear down unused carriages on that basis alone.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*AnsaldoBreda tweets*

Here are the AnsladoBreda tweets (I grouped the 14 tweets to make them coherent reading)



> We apologize to the Netherlands and Belgium for the Fyra problems. We are committed to the utmost to solve this unexpected situation
> 
> The *problems, occurred in the last days on trains V250, were caused by unexpected problems that, after the first technical tests seem to be related to an undue accumulation, under the vehicles, of a big quantity of snow, that turning into ice and detaching during the train running, damaged some parts of the underframe*
> 
> ...


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Ansaldo Breda is not taking any responsibilities for faulty trains.


That was before bits started falling off.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Now there are some retweets asking if Ansaldo Breda will give Zefiro trains from its Bombardier partnership to HSA as replacement for the V250.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Now some people on the press are apparently demanding that Thalys start operating as the international replacement train for the time being to Belgium with Fyra prices (€ 25 day before/€ 39 "jump-on" ticket).

Problem is: they ignore Thalys doens't have much spare capacity at all. It is usually quite busy already on its Bruxelles-Netherlands trips with passengers coming to/from France or using it from Belgium.

So there isn't space to carry much more people at current, let alone with extra demand from reduced prices!


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I agree with you - the outcry for Thalys to act as a Fyra replacement service is understandable, but unrealistic. Thalys could only offer this service with more rolling stock, which they don't have, and with a different pricing structure, which they don't want.

Being a replacement for Fyra at Fyra prices isn't something that Thalys would do as their values are different. The Thalys brand focuses on warmth and exclusivity, they emphasize that in their commercial outings (remember the green lobster in the Willkommen, Bienvenue, Welkom tv campaign?).


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> What Suburbanist meant, and I agree with him, is that SNCB is today very focused on trimming HR costs. Cutting rakes in two after morning peak,re-forming them in the afternoon, and cutting them again in the evening require people and valuable train driver's time (which is a scarce resource over here). So they prefer running with full consists all day long, electricity being cheaper than human costs. That generates additional wear and tear, though, and I don't know whether and how they factored this in the equation.


SBB uses fixes 8 car consists on some routes, where they add blocks of cars to reinforce during peak hours. They show every day that you don't need more than a few minutes to add a rake of cars, or a locomotive. And you don't need more than one extra person to do it... Given the wages SBB pays they still do it.

I find it strange that NMBS would be so focused on trimming HR costs. I thought they were focused on not angering the trade unions.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ SNCB capitulated in the sense of holding down its HR costs by staving off new hirings as much as possible. I bet they have one of the highest average workforce age among railway companies.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

The Hitachi Javelin sets went into service pretty smoothly. Perhaps Fyra should look there?

Also, I see a lot of TGVs sitting around at Lille and Paris every time I go. They can't all be awaiting maintenance. Perhaps they can lease some for a year?


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> SBB uses fixes 8 car consists on some routes, where they add blocks of cars to reinforce during peak hours. They show every day that you don't need more than a few minutes to add a rake of cars, or a locomotive. And you don't need more than one extra person to do it... Given the wages SBB pays they still do it.


That was the plan when the I11 stock was ordered, and factored in the 
number of cab cars (BDx) included in the order. The HLE13 traction engine
even had, built-in, the cabability to run in the middle of the train, with a
cab car at each end, to make those reinforcement moves easier. Why this
way of working never materialized is still some kind of a mistery to me. One of
the reasons cited is that with a loco or cab car inside the consist, the 
minibar could not move freely over the whole train. But those minibars have
been scrapped years ago.



K_ said:


> I find it strange that NMBS would be so focused on trimming HR costs. I thought they were focused on not angering the trade unions.


That's right, and as Suburbanist said, this cost trimming essentially occurs
via age attrition, with the result of a pyramid of ages totally unbalanced in
the SNCB population. It started firing back about five years ago, with train
drivers retiring in masses and insufficient training capacity to replace them.
As a result, availability of drivers is now the main constraint around which
everything is organized...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

33Hz said:


> Also, I see a lot of TGVs sitting around at Lille and Paris every time I go. They can't all be awaiting maintenance. Perhaps they can lease some for a year?


Those TGV sets must be properly equipped in order to operate a Fyra
service : ETCS level 1 & 2 (which they don't have since all french high
speed lines have TVM430), 3 kV traction (only a few TGV reseau have it),
ATB and TBL signalling (only fitted on the Thalys sets) and a system to
limit the extension of the pantographs (there are bridges on the NS where
the catenary is interrupted). 3 kV traction can't be retrofitted at all, and
the rest would be quite complicated, certainly not worth it for a lease of
one year or two.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Using Thalys for all the trains between Amsterdam and Brussels is an option that can be used as a more definite operation in several years. But that will only be feasible if there's also a proper Benelux service using the old line. Then you really have a choice between cheap but slow or more expensive but fast. But I doubt that the NS is interested in this option, they will have to share the income with Thalys.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ The problem is: without trains running, HSA can't pay its franchise fees. Which leaves the government further in the red. Then if they decide to slash fees on HSL, it might become attractive to run cheaper trains on HSL Zuid/4 (like they run trains to Liège over HSL-2).


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The problem is: without trains running, HSA can't pay its franchise fees. Which leaves the government further in the red. Then if they decide to slash fees on HSL, it might become attractive to run cheaper trains on HSL Zuid/4 (like they run trains to Liège over HSL-2).


In other terms, put back the HSL-Zuid in the NS Network... The problem will 
be that NS does not have a lot of equipment able to run off 25 kV catenary.
So they won't have that much capabilities to exploit this line either...


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The problem is: without trains running, HSA can't pay its franchise fees. Which leaves the government further in the red. Then if they decide to slash fees on HSL, it might become attractive to run cheaper trains on HSL Zuid/4 (like they run trains to Liège over HSL-2).


HSA has never paid any fees to the government, and if the contracts from the concession would have been kept by the government HSA would already be bankrupt from all the penalties they would have gotten for not running the full timetable.

The state already decided to drop the current contracts from 2015 and take a fictional loss. I call it fictional because the fees far to high to be economical feasible. The HSA would either not pay the fees or go bankrupt in no time. Since the HSA = NS and the NS 100% state-owned this would have resulted in a loss for the government anyway, even without problematic trains. 

With the end of current contracts the NS will be able to run regular trains over the HSL. The plans are already there to run the Den Haag - Eindhoven services over the HSL with the current loco hauled Fyra trains. But if they can't be replaced by the V250 that plan could be in jeopardy. Although it's very possible that more ICR stock is adapted for the HSL and that the NS will hire more loco's for more services. And when it's time for the next generation of IC EMUs, replacing the ICR cars and the ICM EMUs it will be possible to buy trains that are also capable of running on the HSL.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ The V250 will be fixed


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The V250 will be fixed


I can see it having a future on regional services on secondary lines...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The V250 will be fixed


That's far from certain. It seems NS has already decided to cancel its
order for the rakes that have not been delivered yet, and the SNCB
boss went to the press this week-end to declare that he is in favor of
cancelling the whole belgian order too, for which no trains have been
delivered yet. There is a meeting of the SNCB direction committee today
to decide on this. Looks like the writing might be on the wall already, and
that Bombardier might have to find another italian partner for the assembly
of the ETR1000 : if the V250 order is cancelled and penalties applied, AB
will most probably go belly-up.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ I doubt Bombardier hasn't got some financial assurances from Finmeccanica (the relatively healthy conglomerate who controls AB).


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

The SNCB director's council of today just finished.

SNCB gives AnsaldoBreda 3 months to fix all pending problems affecting
the V250 train sets. If this deadline is not respected, the contract will
be cancelled and SNCB will sue to get its money back.

In the mean time, an alternative will be put in place to allow passengers
to Amsterdam to join Roosendaal, the first NS station on the old line,
in decent time and confort conditions. From there, it is possible to catch the 
regular NS IC service to Rotterdam and beyond. The bill for this temporary 
stopgap measure will be presented to AnsaldoBreda.

Unfortunately, no details about the temporary trains that are put in place
are available yet - but that should come soon.

Source (in french) : http://www.lesoir.be/168535/article/economie/2013-01-21/sncb-donne-3-mois-pour-régler-problème-fyra


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

There are 39 daily IC trains Roosendaal - Rotterdam, plus some number of local trains.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

SNCB will also hold AnsaldoBreda fully accountable for any damages, including those to the Fyra brand image.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AnsaldoBreda spokesperson said the problem is fixable in a matter of days, not weeks.

Meanwhile, the riff continues. Some groups are calling for the immediate dismantle of HSA and also that intermediate stations are built north of Rotterdam on HSL to make it a normal line that merely carries a couple faster trains hno:


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> AnsaldoBreda spokesperson said the problem is fixable in a matter of days, not weeks.


Bert Meerstadt, CEO of NS Group, has declared that NS will refuse to accept the V250 trains if all the other problems aren't fixed. "Either we give our customers a good product, or we don't. We refuse to offer them the crappy service they have experienced during the past couple weeks"

Meerstadt acknowledged that the V250 has serious issues and he declared that _all_ spare rolling stock was needed to ensure daily operations could be fulfilled and that even that wasn't enough, sometimes. NS has 7 available trains - 3 needed for operations, 4 spare.

The attitude from NS signals a change to me. In the past, all communication was positive and came mostly from Marjon Kaper, the commercial director of NS Hispeed. This time, it's from Bert Meerstadt, the CEO of NS Group. A press release that went out a couple of days ago also was in the NS Group letterhead and not NS Hispeed's. Therefore, I think NS Group has seized control of their daughter company.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

NS-Hispeed does a decent job with its trains to Frankfurt I think.

I would be bad if they are reunited because it would mean, effectively, the NS mentality taking over high-speed rail.

Forget about supplements for Fyra to Breda, for instance. I think they will abolish them if the takeover is completed.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> AnsaldoBreda spokesperson said the problem is fixable in a matter of days, not weeks.


The CEO of Ansaldo has a bright future ahead in comedy when his company finaly goes under.



> Meanwhile, the riff continues. Some groups are calling for the immediate dismantle of HSA and also that intermediate stations are built north of Rotterdam on HSL to make it a normal line that merely carries a couple faster trains hno:


I would say that sanity seems to be returning. For example the place where the HSL crosses the Den Haag - Utrecht line near Zoetermeer would be a good spot for a station. Lage Zwaluwe might be another good spot.

But yes, making the line more useful to those who will end up paying for it must be a nightmare for some people...


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> AnsaldoBreda spokesperson said the problem is fixable in a matter of days, not weeks.


A couple of years ago AnsaldoBreda also said to a Dutch journalist that if the trains wouldn't be running before 2010 he receive the key to the factory. The journalist is still waiting for the key. 

AnsaldoBreda is a lot of talk and even more problems. They are not just with their problems a terrible B2B partner, but also on the communication front they make it sure that no smart railway company wants to do business with them anymore. 


I agree that the NS should be one company again. NS Hispeed is far to small to deal with all the problems. With the integration of the 2 concessions coming up it doesn't make sense to have 2 separate companies anymore. It will also make it much easier for the minister just to deal with 1 NS, it will give (currently) her more direct influence that is clearly needed at times.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The management team forming NS Hispeed has no experience whatsoever with rail, they're a bunch of people holding MBA's and having graduated from marketing school. They might be able to _sell_ a train but they certainly can't run a train operating company.

This is unlike NS itself, Bert Meerstadt is a licensed train drivers and he is out and about regularly, exploring the Dutch tracks. Ingrid Thijssen, the managing director of NS Reizigers (the passenger division of NS Group) is a train manager as well. She can sometimes be seen in a train, helping passengers, inspecting tickets and closing doors.

These are the people needed right now. AB has (once again) proven to deliver unreliable products and it looks like some capable people have finally taken over that place.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> I would say that sanity seems to be returning. For example the place where the HSL crosses the Den Haag - Utrecht line near Zoetermeer would be a good spot for a station. Lage Zwaluwe might be another good spot.


That would be a lunatic overreaction. Mind you there is nothing wrong with the railway line itself. It is just the rolling stock of one rather dubious manufacturer which causes some trouble.Thalys services for instance are running perfectly fine on this line.

Building new stations on this line won't make sense as it runs mostly through undeveloped areas. It would even make less sense to run slow services on it. Such services would inevitably conflict with 300 km/h fast international services. HSL Zuid was built to improve the rail link between the Randstad, Brussel and Paris after all. That goal has been achieve and so it remains.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Not withstanding the poor quality of the V250 I do want to mention that Alstom, Siemens or Bombardier trains probably wouldn't have been flawless either. Also the delivery reliability of Siemens and Bombardier in recent times hasn't been exemplary either.

In the case of Alstom: A few years ago Eurostars got stuck in the Eurotunnel because of melting snow and ice. The AGV is only used in Italy and there have

The ICE3 (BR 403/406 built by Siemens/Bombardier) also can't handle ice. Under snow/ice condition is maximum speed is limited to prevent damage to the underside. The ICE3 (BR 407, Siemens Velaro D) which was order by DBAG in 2008 is also delayed because Siemens can't seem to fix software problems.

Anyway: Up till some 25 years ago it was normal to built preproduction trains to iron out the bugs first. Apart from Japan this practice seems completely gone now and replaced by testing in service. So unless you take little risk with developing new trains, like Alstom usually does, you will likely hit trouble at some moment.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Hitachi built reliable train-sets for domestic high-speed services on HS1 in south-eastern England. Maybe NS should have shopped there as well.


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

@ M-NL, yeah but, whilst all trains have teething problems (even the Hitachi trains for HS1 did - they needed their bushes replacing as they suffered hunting, even on the new HS1 track), but thats does not excuse Ansaldo Breda in the slightest. Teething problems in other companies' products get fixed. So where's the comparison?


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## Theijs (Aug 15, 2012)

AlexNL said:


> Therefore, I think NS Group has seized control of their daughter company.


Indeed, that happened. I forgot the name of the female director taking care of the Fyra dossier now.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

flierfy said:


> That would be a lunatic overreaction. Mind you there is nothing wrong with the railway line itself. It is just the rolling stock of one rather dubious manufacturer which causes some trouble.Thalys services for instance are running perfectly fine on this line.


Exactly. The line was not built and is not suitable for commuter services.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

makita09 said:


> @ M-NL, yeah but, whilst all trains have teething problems (even the Hitachi trains for HS1 did - they needed their bushes replacing as they suffered hunting, even on the new HS1 track), but thats does not excuse Ansaldo Breda in the slightest. Teething problems in other companies' products get fixed. So where's the comparison?


No it doesn't. My example only shows that Siemens curently has a ton of problems with delivering the Velaro D, most of them software related. The first set was supposed to be delivered 1.5 years ago, but Siemens has delayed delivery again. That makes it simillar to AnsaldoBreda with the V250, despite Siemens having tons more experience with buidling HSTs.

I do wonder however why Siemens refused to offer trains during this tender. What special customisations did NS ask for that Siemens didn't or wouldn't want to comply with?

What surprises me every time is that NS has the worst track record when it comes to acquiring new stock. With pretty much any model they ordered over the last 30 years the NS specific customisations caused trouble to some degree. A simple clause in the tender like 'must be built using 'proven in use' technology' would have been enough to prevent this debacle.

I did however come up with an idea: Every year all big car manufacturers head to the north of Sweden to test their cars in artic conditions. If they were to create a, preferably high speed, test track like Velim somewhere near Kiruna you have at least 4 months a year to test trains under real world arctic conditions.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Does VIRM EMUs have had any major problem? What about the GTWs? (That the latter don't have restrooms is a merely design choice - by NS!!! -, no a project flaw on part of the manufacturer)


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

VIRM had problems when they entered service (back then being called DD-IRM). GTW (which NS doesn't have any of) also had troubles but nowadays are very reliable. The same can be said for SLT.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

M-NL said:


> I do wonder however why Siemens refused to offer trains during this tender. What special customisations did NS ask for that Siemens didn't or wouldn't want to comply with?


250kph trains were a bit odd then. Now it is different. There's a TSI spec for trains up to 249 kph, and Siemens, Alstom, CAF and now even Stadler all have designs available.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I think HSL can run up to 280 km/h, not only 250km/h. Doesn't Thalys reach 290km/h near Breda when it is delayed?


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

^^ The HSL was built for 300km/h with the mandatory 10% safety margin so strictly speaking you could safely run 330km/h on it.

As far as I know Thalys does 300km/h if the normal schedule applies (ie. there are no broken Fyra trains blocking the way).


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

The choice for 250 km/h was simple economics: Why spend about 50% more power to reach 300 km/h within a reasonable distance, which given the lengths of the HSL-Zuid and HSL-4 will only shorten journey times by one or two minutes at best?

Alstom could have gone the same route as the ICE2: A TGV with a single powercar on one end and a driving trailer on the other would have been sufficient to reach 250 km/h. The powertrain is the most expensive part of the train.


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## rouke (Aug 10, 2011)

M-NL said:


> I did however come up with an idea: Every year all big car manufacturers head to the north of Sweden to test their cars in artic conditions. If they were to create a, preferably high speed, test track like Velim somewhere near Kiruna you have at least 4 months a year to test trains under real world arctic conditions.


Funny thing was, I thought the exact same thing..
The same question kept popping up on the dutch-spoken pages; 'did the train get tested during winter weather conditions?'
The only answer I read: "it was tested in the climate chamber in Velim, CZ republique"

Which probably means: 'It did not actually run during conditions with snow or ice on track or train'

If such A testtrack (and A 2nd one for dry/hot condition testing as well) would be built it should be made certain that the trains stay parked outside buildings/covered areas to insure the equipement is tested thoroughly.
Such tracks should be able to simulate almost any condition, so these tracks need to be extensive.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The climate chamber is in Vienna. The test track is in Velím, I believe that the V250 underwent tests during winter as well.

As far as I know, Spain is planning on building a test track for high speed trains.


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## rouke (Aug 10, 2011)

AlexNL said:


> The climate chamber is in Vienna. The test track is in Velím


, 
My bad, forgot there's 2 different testlocations in centre of Europe.


AlexNL said:


> I believe that the V250 underwent tests during winter as well.


With snow & ice on track?



AlexNL said:


> As far as I know, Spain is planning on building a test track for high speed trains.


Oké, great. Where exactly?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

rouke said:


> ,
> 
> With snow & ice on track?


I am not sure about that 


> Oké, great. Where exactly?


It was planned near Antequera, but the Spanish central court has put a temporary halt to those plans...


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## Crownsteler (Aug 20, 2003)

Perhaps interesting to post here, the damaged underside of the Fyra trains.


















This is what it is supposed to look like:


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

"Dafuq"


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Looks much like underside of Hundai Rotem HRCS2 that resulted in being to be totally incapable of operating during ukrainian winter - http://zdsim.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=4497&view=findpost&p=118057


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Some interesting reading: 'Fyra-treinen voldoen niet aan aanbestedingseisen/.

In short: The tender required a travel time Amsterdam-Brussels in 93 minutes (and Amsterdam-Paris in 183 minutes). According to the managing director of Veolia this can only be achieved by using 300 km/h trains. This statement is backed by the fact that the 250 km/h V250 needs 121 minutes for the Amsterdam-Brussels run.

This basically means that Fyra cannot meet the tender requirements. In fact: they originally planned to use 220 km/h trains, but were reprimanded by the minister of transport that that wouldn't be fast enough to achieve the required travel time. Why she then accepted the still to slow 250 km/h trains is the big question. I suspect the Dutch and Belgian governments didn't complain about that, because they are the biggest shareholders in both the track and the rail companies.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Back in 2001, when the HSL-Zuid was tendered, the government assumed that Belgium would build a high speed rail link between Antwerp and Brussels. In 2004 it was known that the Belgians would not do that, thus lengthening the trip from Antwerp to Brussels by several minutes. HSA was compensated for that.

The trip duration of Fyra as it started in december 2012 is not the final time it would take. The train has been scheduled for 160 kph from Schiphol to Rotterdam, then also making a long stop in Rotterdam. This is for timetabling and cadencing reasons. Once all V250 trains are in service the timetable will be revised, journey times and stops at stations will be shortened by then. 

Given the reputation of Fyra trains I expect this to happen somewhere around 2017.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

What about the new rail line Malines-Schaerbeek? Doesn't it shorten the total travel time between Amsterdam Centraal and Bruxelles-Midi?










They should also build some new all-underground rail track between Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid, and terminate high-speed trains there (where it would integrate with the new Metro line Noordzuid)


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> What about the new rail line Malines-Schaerbeek? Doesn't it shorten the total travel time between Amsterdam Centraal and Bruxelles-Midi?


You mean the new Mechelen - Brussel line? Thalys already uses that, and Fyra is supposed to soon too... But the problem is space in the easternmost part of the NZV.



> They should also build some new all-underground rail track between Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid, and terminate high-speed trains there (where it would integrate with the new Metro line Noordzuid)


They don't need new tracks for that. What is needed is a new station first.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ They need 2 extra tracks all the way from Hooffdorp, 2 or 3 extra platforms in Schiphol, and 2 extra tacks until that junction with the lines to Weesp and Sloterdijk


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

It is fun to read some comment of politicians who don't get a clue about how things work.

For instance, talking of putting a common train to run on HSL-4 as if it were like sending an old bus on a new highway.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> What about the new rail line Malines-Schaerbeek? Doesn't it shorten the total travel time between Amsterdam Centraal and Bruxelles-Midi?


The new line 25N is already used by Thalys trains. It shortens the trip by a few minutes. The plan is for Fyra to use that route as well, but:
- There's a shortage of available train paths in the NZV at Brussels
- There's some technical incompatability between the V250 and the safety system on line 25N.



> They should also build some new all-underground rail track between Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid, and terminate high-speed trains there (where it would integrate with the new Metro line Noordzuid)


I don't think extra tracks are needed for Hoofddorp to Schiphol, but rethinking the placement of signals might be enough to increase capacity. Construction work is in progress to upgrade Schiphol - Duivendrecht to 4 tracks. Also, infrastructure changes (building a 'double fork') at Riekerpolder Aansluiting will increase capacity as it will reduce the number of crossing movements.

Furthermore, the HSL-Zuid concession already gives NS the possibility to send HSTs to Amsterdam Zuid and terminate there.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

AlexNL said:


> The trip duration of Fyra as it started in december 2012 is not the final time it would take. The train has been scheduled for 160 kph from Schiphol to Rotterdam, then also making a long stop in Rotterdam.
> 
> Given the reputation of Fyra trains I expect this to happen somewhere around 2017.


I can understand that the 93 minutes cannot be achieved when the 44 km between Antwerp and Brussels are travelled at 160 km/h instead of 300 km/h. You can allow extra travel time for that. 

But I find it very unfair to the other applicants that Fyra was allowed to use 250 km/h trains instead of the 300 km/h trains required by the original tender. Also I suspect a ICE3, Thalys or AGV will reach 250 km/h quicker then a V250 does because their about 1.5 times higher power ratings also means better acceleration at speed.

Fyra was able to offer such a high price because contrary to their competition they intended to use slower, and therefore much cheaper, trains from the start and knew they would get the slack to do so. But like I mentioned: Fyra is owned by the Dutch state, therefore had to win the tender and was given an unfair advantage after the tender was awarded.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

M-NL said:


> But like I mentioned: Fyra is owned by the Dutch state, therefore had to win the tender and was given an unfair advantage after the tender was awarded.


You are correct about that. This was proven once again when minister Schultz decided to integrate the HSL-Zuid into the rest of the railway network and give it once again to NS, despite their piss-poor performance on the line.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> You mean the new Mechelen - Brussel line? Thalys already uses that, and Fyra is supposed to soon too... But the problem is space in the easternmost part of the NZV.


'Xcuse me, but with the current track layout at the North of Brussels, the
line 25N feeds into the tracks 1 and 2 of the NZV, i.e. westernmost, not
eastern. The goal is indeed to concentrate all international & high speed
traffic on those two tracks, but this objective is still years ahead. Still
lots of works to finish south of Brussels, and also the Mechelen by-pass
which must still be started.


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> 'Xcuse me, but with the current track layout at the North of Brussels, the
> line 25N feeds into the tracks 1 and 2 of the NZV, i.e. westernmost, not
> eastern.


You are correct. I was thinking about the tracks leading to the HST tracks in Zuid, but got East and West confused.


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*Temporary solution for Fyra woes*

A temporary scheme has been announced to replacement trains.

There will be some timetable tweaking and 8 regular crappy 3rd World trains will run daily between Den Haag HS and Bruxelles Midi. They will be timed to offer a fast connection from passengers using domestic Fyra from Amsterdam.

These 8 daily train will remain until Fyra intl. can be restored to service. But I'm very worried SNCB will use this as an excuse for not running the Den Haag HS - Bruxelles Fyra at all hno:, limiting itself to running a Breda-Anvers shuttle (and the Fyra to Amsterdam)

A scheme from NS


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> There will be some timetable tweaking and 8 regular crappy 3rd World trains will run daily between Den Haag HS and Bruxelles Midi. They will be timed to offer a fast connection from passengers using domestic Fyra from Amsterdam.


It's better than nothing. I wonder if they'll present Ansaldobreda with the bill.



> These 8 daily train will remain until Fyra intl. can be restored to service. But I'm very worried SNCB will use this as an excuse for not running the Den Haag HS - Bruxelles Fyra at all hno:, limiting itself to running a Breda-Anvers shuttle (and the Fyra to Amsterdam)


NS and NMBS have already agreed not to run a Den Haag - Brussel Fyra. The Antwerpen Breda service will hopefully materialise, but probably not with V250. I don't think these sets will ever return to commercial service.

(And btw. why do you persist in calling Antwerpen by it's French name? We are discussing in English here, and you live in the Netherlands, so should be familiar with the correct local name. So logically you'd either use "Antwerp" or "Antwerpen". Using the French naming of Flemish town by non French speakers is generally considered a grave insult.)


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> It is fun to read some comment of politicians who don't get a clue about how things work.
> 
> For instance, talking of putting a common train to run on HSL-4 as if it were like sending an old bus on a new highway.


I agree. (At least in the Netherlands) A lot of politicians are specialised in some field, for instance transport. Those people do not need to know the technical details, but the big picture with AC/DC, the coexistince of multiple security systems and what you can and can't do with them should be within the grasp of even the most extreme alfa available.

But I still do not understand why it is so difficult to replace the paths the V250 would have used by a HLE 28 with carriages. Both the HSL-Zuid and HSL-4 aren't used that intensive that that would cause a problem. The only thing I can think of is that the HLE 28 is limited to 140 km/h in Belgium.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The reason for this is software homologation. The red Traxx locomotives used by NS Hispeed are equipped with "SW7", a software revision which contains several bug fixes. However, SW7 hasn't been tested and approved for operations in Belgium. The HLE 28 Traxx locomotives are equipped with SW6, which is fine for use in Belgium and The Netherland, but not on the HSL-Zuid or the Betuweroute.

Having SW7 homologated in Belgium would solve the problems once and for all, but SNCB is unwilling to do that. This is for political (brand image) and cost reasons (train paths for 160 kph are more expensive than for 250 kph).


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

AlexNL said:


> Having SW7 homologated in Belgium would solve the problems once and for all, but SNCB is unwilling to do that. This is for political (brand image) and cost reasons (train paths for 160 kph are more expensive than for 250 kph).


You don't need to upgrade them all. And while you're at it, change the bogies for a P160 MS that will do 200 km/h and use some former German IC carriages of which there are plenty around. Oh wait, the P160 MS model isn't homologated for BE and NL yet (neither is the 230 km/h ES64U4, despite having been used to test HSL-Zuid), so scratch that idea.

What parameters determine the cost of a path? Axle-load and/or time spent on the line? Time spent can't be that important, because the NMBS wouldn't run Desiros over HSL-4 at 160 km/h if it was.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Now there are people demanding the end of all Fyra supplements. Which is something I don't get: the domestic Fyra is operating relatively smoothly, the infrastructure is fine, and the supplements are already low (I doubt they will ever raise them back to the € 6,90 they originally planned to charge for a Breda-Amsterdam C. trip).


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The time spent to get from A to B is what Infrabel uses to determine the price for a train path. The Noorderkempen shuttle is heavily subsidised by the Belgian state which compensates the higher train path price.

Infrabel isn't the only IM that charges based on train speed, Eurotunnel does the same. Train paths in the Chunnel are assigned based on a train speed of 120 kph. As a Eurostar train travels at 160 kph, it would require 2 paths. This is why Eurostar coordinates tunnel passages, sending two Eurostar trains short behind each other through the tunnel so they require 3 paths and not 4.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Forumer TGV posted a lot of graphs of operational performance of Thalys and domestic Fyra trains.

I'm quoting this one



>


Red = Domestic Fyra speed
Brown = Thalys speed

Grey = Thalys cumulative travel time
Blue = Domestic Fyra cumulative travel time


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Forumer TGV posted a lot of graphs of operational performance of Thalys and domestic Fyra trains.


Interesting. So on Schiphol - Rotterdam the lower speed (160 kph!)of the domestic Fyra only means a loss of 4 minutes. So it shows again that speed isn't everything... A 200kph train would be a good solution for both domestic and Benelux services on the HSL Zuid.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> Interesting. So on Schiphol - Rotterdam the lower speed (160 kph!)of the domestic Fyra only means a loss of 4 minutes. So it shows again that speed isn't everything... A 200kph train would be a good solution for both domestic and Benelux services on the HSL Zuid.


The loss on arrival is 7 minutes. It becomes just 4 minutes (on this situation) because Thalys has a longer station dwelling time.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> The loss on arrival is 7 minutes. It becomes just 4 minutes (on this situation) because Thalys has a longer station dwelling time.


But much of the loss on arrival in Rotterdam is due to the fact that the Fyra came to a complete stop at the DC/AC changeover. This was probably unplanned. Without this stop the difference would only have been about 3 minutes. 



> It becomes just 4 minutes (on this situation) because Thalys has a longer station dwelling time.


that is because a TGV is not optimised for short dwelling times... Again proving that for the speed of the system the top speed of the vehicle is not the only parameter. And for networks with relatively short distances top speed becomes even less important compared to for example acceleration and dwell times.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> that is because a TGV is not optimised for short dwelling times... Again proving that for the speed of the system the top speed of the vehicle is not the only parameter. And for networks with relatively short distances top speed becomes even less important compared to for example acceleration and dwell times.


Rotterdam and Schiphol are unidirectional stops for Thalys (people only embark on France-bound trains or disembark on the opposite direction).


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

That's not entirely true, there are people who use Thalys for domestic traveling as well. There aren't many (the cheapest ticket costs € 21 for a single trip from Amsterdam to Rotterdam) but I know some people do.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

M-NL said:


> The class 395 is the poster boy of how a new train series should be introduced. I'm a fan of Japanese train engineering anyways. The downside of the class 395 is that it is built for UK gauge and thus about 15cm narrower then normal UIC 505-1. Thus you would need a complete redesign of the train and I don't think Hitachi will want to do that for only 19 units.


Hitachi is very eager to get in to the European rolling stock market. I think they might be quite willing to design the carriages to normal UIC gauge only to gain entry to the continental market.
Building a smaller series to a different loading gauge isn't that hard anyway. Stadler does it all the time...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

If I remember correctly NS HiSpeed invited 9 companies to bid on the Fyra trains. 6 of them declined. Was Hitachi one of them?


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Only Breda-Antwerpen C. shuttles should stop there. People can then transfer from/to domestic Fyra in Breda.


Let's hope that doesn't happen.
Those shuttles (now only Noorderkempen-Antwerpen) are only meant as a placeholder until a decent IC train stops there.
As mentioned before, the stop at Noorderkempen can be used to let that train be overtaken by a Thalys or something, so not much capacity is lost.
The HSL between Breda and Antwerp won't be really crowded in the near future.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

K_ said:


> As there are no trains available to do this with this is not a serious proposition.


Theoretically speaking, it is possible if some of the compositions on Zwolle - Roosendaal would consist of the so called "ICRm-buurlandrijtuigen" (ICRm coaches that can go into neighbouring countries, i.e. Belgium) and a Traxx locomotive, or the locomotive would be changed in Roosendaal.

I'm not a fan of the plan, the Zwolle - Roosendaal intercity has got little in common with Belgium and the train is easily delayed (due to the occupied tracks between Arnhem and Nijmegen). Furthermore, NS doesn't have much TRAXX locos while there are plenty of Class 1700 locos. Changing locomotive in Roosendaal adds too much time. The current solution (The Hague - Brussels) is much more realistic than extending the Zwolle - Roosendaal service to Belgium.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> The difference on Amsterdam - Rotterdam between a 300kph train and a 200 kph trains should be about 5 minutes. That means that it should be no problem to path 2 300 kph trains per hour and 6 200 kph trains per hour. Just have a 300kph train leave 8 minutes after a 200 kph train.


8 min just won't be enough. 8 min alone is the difference in travel time between a 300 km/h and a 200 km/h service on the 81,7 km of high speed tracks. These 8 min alone wouldn't be so problematic if high speed service would share tracks with plenty of other services between Schiphol and Amsterdam Centraal as well. It will be the combination of both, the speed difference on the high speed line and the shortage of train paths on the classic line which would make it extremely difficult maybe even impossible to accommodate service with top speeds of 200 km/h along the 300 km/h fast Thalys services.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

flierfy said:


> 8 min just won't be enough. 8 min alone is the difference in travel time between a 300 km/h and a 200 km/h service on the 81,7 km of high speed tracks.


It's 55 km from Rotterdam to Schiphol. On this distance the difference between a 160kph domestic Fyra and the Thalys is only about 4 minutes according to the speed graphs posted in this very thread earlier.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> It's 55 km from Rotterdam to Schiphol. On this distance the difference between a 160kph domestic Fyra and the Thalys is only about 4 minutes according to the speed graphs posted in this very thread earlier.


You seem to forget that domestic high speed services will use HSL Zuid from Schiphol not just to Rotterdam but to a junction near Breda. And on this distance slow services lose up to 8 minutes on Thalys services.


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

There are also plans to upgrade the VIRM emu's with 25 kV and ERMTS to run with 160 km/u on the HSL. When the IRM emu's where extended to VIRM they prepared the VIRM for a 25kV upgrade in the near future. 

Also NShispeed has asked prorail for trainpaths to use the old benelux service in 2014. That means that there is big chance that the fyra service won't return until 2015.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

flierfy said:


> You seem to forget that domestic high speed services will use HSL Zuid from Schiphol not just to Rotterdam but to a junction near Breda. And on this distance slow services lose up to 8 minutes on Thalys services.


But you seem to forget that Rotterdam offers an opportunity for fast trains to overtake slow trains.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> But you seem to forget that Rotterdam offers an opportunity for fast trains to overtake slow trains.


Who says I had thought about it. Yet, overtaking is a rather impractical option. It would lengthen the travel for the slower service even further. And it is furthermore a destabilising element for the time table.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I have yet to see VIRM running on HSL-Zuid, given that the design of those trains is nearly 20 years old I doubt that the trains are compliant with regulations about crashworthiness and fire prevention.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

So the best solution is still to bring the V250 to service.

How many V250 were handled to SNCB and how many to NS?


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> So the best solution is still to bring the V250 to service.
> 
> How many V250 were handled to SNCB and how many to NS?



I can see it now:

Hey wow this train is so fast and new, look at the scenery rolling by!

(Massive bang)

Jesus what on earth was that?

This is your driver speaking, one of the axles has fallen off and you're all going to die. AnsaldoBreda would like to wish you all a lovely day.


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> I have yet to see VIRM running on HSL-Zuid, given that the design of those trains is nearly 20 years old I doubt that the trains are compliant with regulations about crashworthiness and fire prevention.


At least it wont fall appart when it got hit by ice :lol:


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

flierfy said:


> Who says I had thought about it. Yet, overtaking is a rather impractical option. It would lengthen the travel for the slower service even further. And it is furthermore a destabilising element for the time table.


I can be done however. 

For example have the following departures in Amsterdam:
IC 200 kph xx:00 (V) xx:10 (A) xx:20 (B) xx:30 (V) xx:40 (R) xx:50 (B)
HST 300 kph xx:08 xx:38

The trains I marked V stop in Rotterdam and then in Blaak, Dordrecht, Roosendaal and continue all stops to Vlissingen. So after Rotterdam they are no longer in the way of the HST that follows it. 
The trains marked B stop in Rotterdam and continue on the HSL, but leave for Breda and beyond (I would run one Eindhoven - Venlo and the other Eindhoven - Maastricht), so by the time the HST would overtake it they leave the line.
- The train marked A goes to Antwerp and Brussels. Since there are 28 minutes between it and the following HST there should be no conflicts here. The train marked R just goes to Rotterdam, but could also continue to Antwerpen - Brussel if there is ever demand for a half hour service on that line (which there well could be).

There are two HST slots per hour in this pattern. Can be used by Thalys and whoever else wants to run HSTs on that route...

This would, I think add tremendous value to the domestic IC network, and still give room for a good international high speed service too. NS would just have to procure 200kph multisystem IC trainsets.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The 3 month deadline given by NS and SNCB passes today, so I think that somewhere in the next week we'll hear more information about the future of the V250.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> I can be done however.
> 
> For example have the following departures in Amsterdam:
> IC 200 kph xx:00 (V) xx:10 (A) xx:20 (B) xx:30 (V) xx:40 (R) xx:50 (B)
> ...


Even though I'd be directly benefited from having trains from Tilburg to Amsterdam Centraal, the tracks between Tilburg Uni. and Breda are very crowded, because they deal with freight trains. There are often one or more freight trains parked before Tilburg mains station waiting their paths to travel to Breda. 

So if you are running those trains you need to replace the current ones that run from Den Haag to Venlo. Or make them regional trains on the old line running to Breda only.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Even though I'd be directly benefited from having trains from Tilburg to Amsterdam Centraal, the tracks between Tilburg Uni. and Breda are very crowded, because they deal with freight trains. There are often one or more freight trains parked before Tilburg mains station waiting their paths to travel to Breda.
> 
> So if you are running those trains you need to replace the current ones that run from Den Haag to Venlo. Or make them regional trains on the old line running to Breda only.


Looking at hte long term plans of NS they actually want to run the following over HSL Zuid:

- 4 tph Eindhoven - Rotterdam and then from there on alternating to Den Haag and Amsterdam. One of those could be extended to Venlo and onwards to Germany. 
- 2 tph Rotterdam - Amsterdam Zuid - Almere and eventually to Zwolle. 
- 2 tph Amsterdam - Brussel and beyond. Ideally that would be one Amsterdam - Brussel IC, and the other train one that goes alternatingly to London and Paris. 
- One IC Breda - Antwerpen.

That's all going to fit on the HSL just fine, even if the ICs are done with sets that only do 200kph. Just space them at 15 minute intervals, and send the international, 300kph trains just a few minutes ahead of them.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> How many V250 were handled to SNCB and how many to NS?


As far as I know, NS officially took over 9 sets of the 16 that they have 
ordered. SNCB hasn't received - and also not paid - anything yet.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

MarcVD said:


> As far as I know, NS officially took over 9 sets of the 16 that they have
> ordered. SNCB hasn't received - and also not paid - anything yet.


Maybe this explain the different attitudes of both companies in regard of AnsaldoBreda. SNCB behaves like it would rather ditch the contract altogether and at most let NS run trains to Belgium on its own.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> Maybe this explain the different attitudes of both companies in regard of AnsaldoBreda. SNCB behaves like it would rather ditch the contract altogether and at most let NS run trains to Belgium on its own.


You're only partial right:
NMBS doesn't want to start services with the V250 as they weren't happy with the end result.
What they don't want is that a train is operated on Belgian terittory without the NMBS involved. They'd rather invent something else, as usual


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

They (NMBS) don't have a choice. European regulations prohibit Belgium from not allowing NS to do so. If NS wants to do so is a second matter.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Legally SNCB is in no position to block any international trains, but they can always try, can't they? That's why they'd rather cooperate.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

what are the chances that they build new Breda station alongside HSL?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Zero, as it is pointless.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm cross posting: pics of V250 being finished at AB facility



Cori said:


> Detail of a case of electric trains V250 FYRA Dutch railways in working in the workshops Ansaldo Breda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> Legally SNCB is in no position to block any international trains, but they can always try, can't they? That's why they'd rather cooperate.


NMBS will not try to stop such trains. But the trade unions will.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> I'm cross posting: pics of V250 being finished at AB facility


Were they still working on them?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> Were they still working on them?


These pics were taken by trainspotters earlier this month when the facility was opened to unveil the new ETR1000. They are working on trains, since all contracts and orders of manufacturing are valid as of April 16.

Same trainspotters got pics of IC4 under assembling there as well (of course not on this open-day).


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

K_ said:


> NMBS will not try to stop such trains. But the trade unions will.


As the unions have more power than the management itself, this effectively means the same hno:


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## MrBob19 (May 1, 2013)

Hi, im new to this forum and i work at the Railways in the Netherlands and i have something to add to this topic.

Everybody is just talking about the "HSL Zuid" to be the only High Speed route in the Netherlands. I can tell you all that there are 2 more routes where trains can drive 200KM/h!
Those routes are the "Hanzenlijn" (Between Lelystad and Zwolle) and the route between Amsterdam Central (from Amsterdam Blijmer ARENA) to Utrecht Central.

On those routes can be driven 200km/h under ERTMS lvl 2. altough, no train (even not the ICE get's any speeds there near the 200 km/h) goes faster than 140 km/h and the ERTMS system isn't used at all due to the fact that ProRail charges extra for using it on those lines. 

The Hanzelijn is recently opened and a ICE 3 trainset tested the tracks for 200 km/h speeds. The only weird thing is that when you drive over those 2 lines under ERTMS lvl2, the signals outside (even if they glow red) have no meaning anymore for you! since ERTMS lvl 2 is fully cab based.

Also, those 2 lines only have local Speed limits (due to ERTMS) instead of the old Speed limits for a whole line.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^MrBob19, in case you can tell, who do you work for? NS, NedTrain or Pro-Rail?


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

MrBob19 said:


> Hi, im new to this forum and i work at the Railways in the Netherlands and i have something to add to this topic.
> 
> Everybody is just talking about the "HSL Zuid" to be the only High Speed route in the Netherlands. I can tell you all that there are 2 more routes where trains can drive 200KM/h!
> Those routes are the "Hanzenlijn" (Between Lelystad and Zwolle) and the route between Amsterdam Central (from Amsterdam Blijmer ARENA) to Utrecht Central.
> ...



As far as I know 200 km/h is not considered high speed in any parlance in The Netherlands.
It might be higher-than-current-speed, but not high speed.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

It shouldn't be that difficult to upgrade some lines to 250 km/h like Amsterdam-Eindhoven. They are straight, relatively. The challenge is how to close the line for a couple years for upgrading and how to reconstruct stations with through tracks. Also a tunnel under Utrecht would be needed.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Not only that, but how are you going to fit in 200+ km/h trains on lines which are already maxed to capacity with 140 km/h and slower trains, while retaining that capacity.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

M-NL said:


> Not only that, but how are you going to fit in 200+ km/h trains on lines which are already maxed to capacity with 140 km/h and slower trains, while retaining that capacity.


Extending the 4-track segment from Houten to Boxtel, for instance.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

MrBob19 said:


> the ERTMS system isn't used at all due to the fact that ProRail charges extra for using it on those lines.


Why did they invest millions for equipping the track with ERTMS and then charge extra for it so there is no incentive for any user to actually use it? As long as most trains aren't even fitted, under these conditions they never will. If you ask me it should be the other way around: usage of the new system should be included in the usage fee, while usage of the legacy system is extra.

And just like in Switserland: electricity should be included in the track usage fees when a path is used that is 100% electrified, to discourage unnecesary use of diesel traction.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> Extending the 4-track segment from Houten to Boxtel, for instance.


The NS have said, if we could, we would..

Only point is that there are 3 or 4 major bridges to cross... at big costs...


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

And at that point people start yelling that a tunnel would be better, driving up the price another 3 times and as a result the whole project is ditched... 


Yeah, that's the Netherlands.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Maarten Otto said:


> And at that point people start yelling that a tunnel would be better, driving up the price another 3 times and as a result the whole project is ditched...


Since they can use traditional method of pilling up, enclosing and digging a tunnel on those rivers (for they are big ship lanes), building 3 tunnels would be reasonably expensive indeed. And cities like Culemborg or Geldermasen would want their own tunnels as well I think


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> Doesn't Thalys have some plant to run trains all the way to Berlin?


Those plans could also be affected by the DB stepping out of Thalys.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I think Thalys is going to need some new rolling stock if they want to expand their network by that much. I've heard that some Dutch company has some high speed trains that they're likely not using anymore, perhaps Thalys can buy those?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

If it's really necessary to add new trains the easiest solution should be that the SNCF just transfers some more TGV Reseau sets to Thalys.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Momo1435 said:


> If it's really necessary to add new trains the easiest solution should be that the SNCF just transfers some more TGV Reseau sets to Thalys.


TGV Reseaux sets can't run in the Netherlands. Some can run in Belgium but they're quite busy already.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Thalys PBA sets are pretty much equivalent to TGV Réseau sets, technically. It should be possible to adapt some of those to run in the Netherlands. However, this will lead to shortages for French domestic services, so I don't see SNCF doing that.


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## Larrotcha (Sep 25, 2005)

K_ said:


> Actually there are 24 HST services daily between Paris and Brussel. Brussel - Amsterdam does warrant a half hourly service. Barcelona - Madrid should also have a lot more trains, but Renfe is not that good at selling tickets....
> 
> However currently the rolling stock for a train every half hour over the HST isn't there...


There are currently 27 HST daily services between Barcelona and Madrid.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Larrotcha said:


> There are currently 27 HST daily services between Barcelona and Madrid.


Given the size of the cities involved that is not very impressive. I would expect at least two non stop and two limited stop services per hour.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> Thalys PBA sets are pretty much equivalent to TGV Réseau sets, technically. It should be possible to adapt some of those to run in the Netherlands. However, this will lead to shortages for French domestic services, so I don't see SNCF doing that.


The TGV-R sets are now mostly used on Brussels - France intersector services. These trains are quite popular.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The newspapers are reporting that NS is going to give up on Fyra, too. CEO Bert Meerstadt has announced his resignation ("time to move on to new challenges," Meerstadt said), Timo Huges will be his replacement starting October 1st.


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## Advancer (Mar 10, 2007)

Apperently the Minister of Finance won't let the NS stop with the V250. First they have to research what the financial consequences of it.


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## skaP187 (Jan 10, 2006)

Advancer said:


> Apperently the Minister of Finance won't let the NS stop with the V250. First they have to research what the financial consequences of it.


So it´s too early to close this thread?


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

skaP187 said:


> So it´s too early to close this thread?


There's still the Thalys that provides high speed rail in The Netherlands... so no closing this thread


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

NS just confirmed that they are planning to forget about the V250 as well. Their decision still awaits approval of their sole shareholder, the ministry of Finance. NS states that it would take until at least 2018 for full entry into commercial service to be possible, "if the vendor would be state-of-the-art, which it isn't."


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

A few minutes ago the dutch railways announced to also stop with the fyra.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

3737 said:


> A few minutes ago the dutch railways announced to also stop with the fyra.


I doubt that they quit Fyra, their very own high speed brand. I would rather expect NS to terminate contracts with Ansaldo-Breda.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The Fyra name and brand is owned solely by SNCB, according to the European brand register.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Isn't Fyra Swedish word for the number "four"?


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Yup, Because of the Four Cities served or something... Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Antwerps-Brussels...

On a post in the Dutch section, something regarding Fyra was shown.

The National Fyra service Amsterdam-Breda was marketed as Fyra as well (with a Fyra Loco-train in the add and the service being named "fyra"), on the new ad the name Fyra is nowhere to be found!


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Last Friday, the following advertisement appeared in Metro:








_Amsterdam - Breda, 34 minutes closer. With Fyra, 2x/hour, for just € 2,30 extra_

Today, the same ad appeared:









I'm guessing SNCB doesn't want the brand to be used anymore.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

It will be hard for NS to keep the supplement charged if they are not going to use a separate brand. 

They had unfortunately abandoned supplements for Schiphol-Amsterdam travel on domestic Fyra already. Now there will be pressure to drop supplements for all trips. Actually, all trips originating/terminating on Schiphol station should have a supplement charged to pay for additional tracks at the tunnel.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The future for NS' activities on the high speed line is currently very uncertain. Competitors such as Veolia Transport are banging at the doors, trying to get the HSL now that Fyra has flopped definitely. Furthermore, political parties such as the CDA are claiming that NS' concession should be revoked and that HSL-Zuid should be re-tendered. Wilma Mansveld, secretary of state for public transport and environment, is open to this idea as well.

For the time being, it looks like NS will start to use the "NS Hispeed" brand to indicate the service between Amsterdam and Breda. Perhaps this will be enough to tell people that they will need to pay a supplement to travel on the trains.

Regarding your suggestion: this is what the Belgians did to fund the infrastructure expansion around Brussels Airport, it's the Diabolo project. If Schiphol were in the need of more infrastructure and the only way to fund it is a public-private partnership (like Diabolo), I'm in favor of that. However, I don't think Schiphol currently needs the expansion as trains are either re-routed (over Haarlem), terminate at Amsterdam Centraal, or are coupled to other series. This limits the number of trains terminating at Schiphol (and thus requiring capacity at Hoofddorp).


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ My point is that the Schiphol tunnels are a bottleneck now that we have HSL Zuid. HSL Zuid between Rotterdam and Hoofddorp will be never able to be used to its full potential unless extra Hoofddorp-Amsterdam Zuid is added OR Schiphol <=> Leiden traffic reduced.

The line is a good candidate for an open-access carrier now.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

How do you define "full potential"? Because there are very few high speed railways in the world where the maximum number of trains that could physically be allowed on the tracks would actually be profitable.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Slagathor said:


> How do you define "full potential"? Because there are very few high speed railways in the world where the maximum number of trains that could physically be allowed on the tracks would actually be profitable.


I'm talking on a broader sense of increasing services between Rotterdam and Amsterdam with faster services. Trains there are often slow and commercial speeds are unacceptable.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Now apparently NS is under threat of losing the concession to operate on HSL if it doesn't come with a plan to operate high-speed services there until Friday.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*AnsaldoBreda refutes accusations on new press release*

AnsaldoBreda just published this press release



> *ANSALDOBREDA: We reject any accusation on the Fyra matter.*
> 
> AnsaldoBreda firmly rejects all accusations addressed on the matter of the contract execution with the Belgian client NMBS related to the supply of the three high-speed trains called Fyra.
> 
> ...


If they can prove this fact, it would be shocking and irresponsible. Did NS/SNCB ordered train drivers to ignore the safety systems? HAve they under-specified the parameters of operations when they first put out a tender?


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> AnsaldoBreda just published this press release
> 
> 
> 
> If they can prove this fact, it would be shocking and irresponsible. Did NS/SNCB ordered train drivers to ignore the safety systems? HAve they under-specified the parameters of operations when they first put out a tender?


This is up to NS/DSB to demostrate. It's unikely that there are making it up.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Anyway, a non-time lapsed cab ride of the whole thing


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> My point is that the Schiphol tunnels are a bottleneck now that we have HSL Zuid. HSL Zuid between Rotterdam and Hoofddorp will be never able to be used to its full potential unless extra Hoofddorp-Amsterdam Zuid is added OR Schiphol <=> Leiden traffic reduced.


There's no bottleneck below Schiphol airport. The tunnel has four tracks. The same number as the lines to Leiden and Rotterdam combined. Willemsspoortunnel is more likely limiting the capacity of HSL Zuid.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ I thought the Schiphol tunnel had just 2 tracks from what I read here a long time ago.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Even with the current 4 entry/exit tracks and 6 platform tracks Schiphol is pretty much at it's peak and very susceptible to disturbances (for instance the fire detection system in the tunnel acts up every now and then). As far as I know Schiphol is the only station in the Netherlands where trains are not assigned fixed tracknumbers, but only a platform. A train can then enter the station at either side of the platform depending on which side is available at the time of arrival.

Check sporenplan.nl/ for the track layouts of the Netherlands and several other countries.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

M-NL said:


> Even with the current 4 entry/exit tracks and 6 platform tracks Schiphol is pretty much at it's peak and very susceptible to disturbances (for instance the fire detection system in the tunnel acts up every now and then). As far as I know Schiphol is the only station in the Netherlands where trains are not assigned fixed tracknumbers, but only a platform. A train can then enter the station at either side of the platform depending on which side is available at the time of arrival.


SBB does the same with tracks 41-44 in Zürich Hbf, and for the same reason...


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## Busfotodotnl (Mar 18, 2009)

More pics from dutch railways investigation


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I traveled today on a FYRA domestic service. All leaflets and brochures alluding to Fyra were taken out


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

And I just replace those a few weeks ago.... :-(


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AnsaldoBreda called the photos released by NS as "worth of papparazzi".

This is what they wrote today



> *AnsaldoBreda on the pronouncement of the Dutch government: we stand firm on our position.*
> 
> .
> In relation to the pronouncement of the Dutch Council of Ministers on the high-speed train V250-Fyra event, AnsaldoBreda reiterates its firm position.
> ...


Source


They are blaming the faults on the operators.


Anyway, these are major points raised on the conference by AB team (not saying I agree, just referencing them)

- HSA chose to manage the contract outsourced to a Irish company without technical capabilities of managing a high-speed project
- HSA didn't care about managing the infrastructure, and the train was made the scapegoat
- NS and SNCB didn't collaborate among themselves, delaying the delivery of trains
- after Sep/2012 certification, FYRA had better punctuality than Thalys 
- a freak bloc of ice produced much damage on the fatific train


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Geez Suburbanist, when are you gonna stop brown-nosing AnsaldoBreda and just accept it's a crappy company that delivered crappy products?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Silly_Walks said:


> Geez Suburbanist, when are you gonna stop brown-nosing AnsaldoBreda and just accept it's a crappy company that delivered crappy products?


I just referenced the points raised by AB.

I'm kinda disapointed by the way they are handling the project now  
They said the train should have been driving, on the day that damage happened, at a crawl speed not higher than 20km/h to the next station ,and never 250km/h.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

Have you ever travelled on a V250?


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## SAS 16 (Apr 9, 2013)

Silly_Walks said:


> Geez Suburbanist, when are you gonna stop brown-nosing AnsaldoBreda and just accept it's a crappy company that delivered crappy products?


Madrid metro has some ansaldobreda units and i think there are no problems with them so far.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Maarten Otto said:


> Have you ever travelled on a V250?


Just 3 times (round-trip to Belgium + one-way trip R'dam-A'dam)


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

The spokesperson of Ansaldo kind of reminds me of the Iraqi minister of information. Anybody with more then 2 brain cells can understand that all these poor building quality issues are not caused by wrong usage or insufficient maintenance.

Have the NS personnel responsible for taking delivery of these trains already been fired? Most of the assembly issues were already there at time of delivery, yet they have all been accepted. How is that possible? Has a higher ranking official overruled the engineers that had rejected the trains? At the first sign that all trains were not identical I have returned them all (or have they been stupid enough not to specify that the trains had to be identical in the tender, because they considered that common practice?)


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

M-NL said:


> He probably never had the chance to. It was in service for to short a time...


I had bought tickets in advance for the 2nd week of operation just to check the new train 



> At the first sign that all trains were not identical I have returned them all (or have they been stupid enough* not to specify that the trains had to be identical in the tender, because they considered that common practice?*)


Apparently this is the source of many problems: the tender was too concise and just assumed whomever took it would follow common practices, whereas AnsaldoBreda saw a gap on the tender terms to reduce costs and sticking to its wording. At least this is one of the versions of the debacle for certain items like train horns positioned where they could get clogged with snow. 

In any case, it is now clear there were some production management issues within AB plant with many ad-hoc solutions. But apparently the tender allowed for that.


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## Beetle (Feb 25, 2007)

So what next? 

I think it would be cheaper to purchase some second hand Shinkansen trains in Japan, convert them to Dutch gauge (if necessary) and let them run.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Cheaper still to just leave it to Thalys and, maybe in the future, Eurostar.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

NS and the State are still contemplating on what to do next. NS has suggested a proposal, and has been given until October 1st to come up with a detailed plan. On the short term, they want to up the number of Thalys trains to 11/day (currently 9) of which 2 will terminate in Lille. Furthermore, they are planning to reinstate the Beneluxtrein, 16x/day, The Hague - Brussels. According to the preliminary version of this proposal, NS will need until 2022 to acquire a fleet of new semi high-speed trains.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> NS and the State are still contemplating on what to do next. NS has suggested a proposal, and has been given until October 1st to come up with a detailed plan. On the short term, they want to up the number of Thalys trains to 11/day (currently 9) of which 2 will terminate in Lille. Furthermore, they are planning to reinstate the Beneluxtrein, 16x/day, The Hague - Brussels. According to the preliminary version of this proposal, NS will need until 2022 to acquire a fleet of new semi high-speed trains.


That is simply unacceptable. It should lost the concession to operate HSL trains if it wants 9 more years to have fast services between Belgium and Netherlands running there. The infrastructure of HSL works fine. Maybe that will open the door for some open-access operator? But NS is on a retreat mode of sorts: it happily supported the government decision not to go ahead with the project to make trains on the Rotterdam-Eindhoven-Amsterdam lines operate on a 8-per-hour frequency because it would save NS the need to buy more trains on the short term. Maybe NS is financially strained and prefers not to expand, who knows.

What are chances of them running trains to Beligum more or less like they run the domestic 'Fyra' to Breda - rented locos + non-powered cars traveling at 160km/h? That would still provide at least a 45 travel time gain between Amsterdam and Antwerpen.

But in any case if NS/SNCB don't want to operate fast trains between both countries, they should bring some new operator(s). Maybe Veolia is interested in operating trains there, for instance. Of Virgin Rail. Or some other group. I'm sure they don't need 9 damn years to order and commission some new trains to operate there, given the line is already opened and working.


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## Theijs (Aug 15, 2012)

M-NL said:


> Have the NS personnel responsible for taking delivery of these trains already been fired? Most of the assembly issues were already there at time of delivery, yet they have all been accepted. How is that possible? Has a higher ranking official overruled the engineers that had rejected the trains?


The problem is that the management has neglected the information coming from the NS controllers that visited AnsaldoBreda for inspection, so trains that did not met the expectations have been accepted by the management. Only the highest manager of NS is going to leave the railway company.



AlexNL said:


> According to the preliminary version of this proposal, NS will need until 2022 to acquire a fleet of new semi high-speed trains.


Do you have a link to this proposal?


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Beetle said:


> I think it would be cheaper to purchase some second hand Shinkansen trains in Japan, convert them to Dutch gauge (if necessary) and let them run.


Shinkansen trains are likely too big for European loading gauge, not to mention that they cannot run under low voltage DC and some are built fot 25 kV 60 Hz, not 50 Hz. The gauge is the only thing they have in common with European trains.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> But in any case if NS/SNCB don't want to operate fast trains between both countries, they should bring some new operator(s). Maybe Veolia is interested in operating trains there, for instance. Of Virgin Rail. Or some other group. I'm sure they don't need 9 damn years to order and commission some new trains to operate there, given the line is already opened and working.


It indeed doesn't have to take 9 years. All they have to do is avoid buying Italian.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

There has been a "baby with bath water" case on the Dutch press. Many people are implying and assuming, probably naively, that the infrastructure itself has some serious problems, when it really doesn't have any. 

Yes, there had been a couple hiccups at the beginning of services, especially on the HSL-Breda link, and early on some dust problems, but those were solved and haven't been an issue at all (thus the reliability of both Thalys and the domestic Fyra).


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Right now the most important thing is that the government and the NS won't make any hasty decisions. The string of wrong decisions is already way too long, it's good if the government only makes a decision after the parliamentary inquiry has taken place.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm furious disappointed at these news.

The "plan" for NS to operate HSL will involve renting more TRAXX locomotives and attaching old cars to them. It should come with an official plan to operate an Amsterdam-Bruxelles service on HSL by Oct. 1. These are the general ideas on it, as reported:



> Dutch railways NS is replacing the cancelled Fyra high-speed train between Amsterdam and Brussels with the Canadian TRAXX locomotive, the Nos reports on Monday.
> 
> The Fyra was taken out of service in May after the NS and Belgian railways NMBS, partners in the service, said they were concerned about the safety and quality of the Italian-made train.
> 
> ...


See more at: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...s_fyra_with_canadian.php#sthash.lRFuZiCj.dpuf

So NS is:
- bypassing the tendering process
- ordering 160km/h only locos (meaning: scheduled services will take at least 9-12 minutes longer between Amsterdam and Bruxelles)
- trying to hold the concession of HSL Zuid with this crappy offer 

This would mean no 300 km/h B <=> NL trains before 2020 at the earliest (time it would take for an open access carrier to get all certifications and acquire rolling stock to operate there).

The only upside is that TRAXX locos have been used already on HSL Zuid/4, hence there should be no major issues with putting there into service. I don't know how busy or not are Bombardier plants in Germany, where the trains will be manufactured.

A major mistake of HSL tendering was to not specify a maximum travel time between the endpoints of the service. If it was fixed at 118 minutes, for instance, it would force adjustments to make this limit stick.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> A major mistake of HSL tendering was to not specify a maximum travel time between the endpoints of the service. If it was fixed at 118 minutes, for instance, it would force adjustments to make this limit stick.


That was specified. In fact that was the reason the maximum speed of the V250 was raised to 250 km/h (from 220 km/h), despite the fact that it would have taken a 300 km/h train to be able to keep the required travel time. However, because the Belgians ditched the plans for a HSL between Antwerp and Brussels those travel times could never be met and somehow HSA was allowed to acquire much slower trains.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

HSA has received compensation for the longer travel times in Belgium, however, maximum journey times have been set for Amsterdam - Rotterdam, Amsterdam - Breda and Amsterdam - Brussels. 

This crappy offer will not meet the requirements, and it is inexplicable that NS is willing to spend millions of euros to procure these locomotives, which are only intended to be a temporary solution. Keep in mind that the current Fyra, hauled by leased Traxx locomotives, *is the temporary solution*. This makes me think that NS is not planning on keeping this as a temporary solution, but wants to make it the permanent solution.

For such lack of respect for the passenger and the tax payer, there is only one solution: *disenfranchisement*.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Are you sure that these locomotives will be bought, and not just leased? Because I see them as a good solution, but only as a temporary measure until the arrival of new trains (which takes years).


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

NS confirmed that they intend to purchase these locomotives, according to NOS.nl.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Coccodrillo said:


> Are you sure that these locomotives will be bought, and not just leased? Because I see them as a good solution, but only as a temporary measure until the arrival of new trains (which takes years).


For a network/company like NS, owning a few locos is not a problem, specially
universal ones like the ones they will get. Even if they are not used on the
HSL more than a few years, they could easily be re-used, re-sold, or even
re-leased elsewhere once they are not needed anymore on the high-speed
services. Say in 5 years from now - the time needed to get other high-speed
trains in service. At that time, won't we have the existing 1600 and 1700
locs almost end of life ?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Class 1800 locos have already been withdrawn from service, class 1700 can easily serve another 15 to 20 years if serviced properly.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> Class 1800 locos have already been withdrawn from service, class 1700 can easily serve another 15 to 20 years if serviced properly.


That long ? When were they built ? In Belgium they started speaking about
retiring all the fleet of locs that were built between 1980 and 1990 (class 11 
and 12, 24 locs, already gone ; class 21 and 27 still to retire, 120 locs in 
total) for 2023 at latest... Parts sourcing is one of the problems, difficulties
to fit ETCS signalling in is the other. I suppose the NS Alsthom locs are in a
similar situation...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Slagathor said:


> Eurostar and Thalys are both gonna be allowed to use the HSL, and NS is party in neither of those. So what the heck are you talking about?


I'm talking about an operator, other than Thalys (which was going to operate regardless) and Eurostar (insignificant, it is not even certain they will sell tickets to Bruxelles Midi on those 2 daily trains), to operate high-speed services with high-speed trains on a limited stop with reserved trains.

This "Benelux plus" is a truncated service to placate all stakeholders on the following route: Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag - Rotterdam (HSL) Breda (HSL) Antwerpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles. Lets analyze it:

- it uses, absurdily, the old railway between Schiphol and Rotterdam to serve Den Haag
- it stops in Breda
- it stops in Mechelen and Zaventem

So, essentially, NS now wants to operate one single service to cater for all demands of HSA: services calling at Den Haag, services connceting Breda with Antwerpen, some new train linkin Netherlands with Zaventem airport...

This is an entirely different animal than the one sold when HSA got its concession. It is a different scope altogether. Therefore it should be put to tender in search of a new operator, instead of having NS being rewarded with a lighter contract with worse service after it failed to perform the services conceded to its subsidiary HSA.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

^^ Considering that nobody has the ready capacity to properly exploit this thing (neither NS, NMBS, SNCF, DB, or Eurostar has the necessary HS trains parked and ready somewhere), this is a pretty good fix. Of course it's completely different from the original promise, but then a lot has happened in the meantime.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Outrageous plans about traffic to Belgium! They should cancel the NS concession and give it to another operator.


I agree.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ That no one has trains ready for service is yet another reason to put out a tender. Maybe a company like NTV or Virgin Rail gets interested on exploring train services over HSL, including the domestic ones.

This measure involves rewarding two of the main actors that mismanaged the whole HSA project with 3 more years and a long concession with watered down requirements. This is like some builder is hired to build some Zara Hadid office complex with artificial waterfalls, fails badly, then its parent company offers to build a handful of generic mid-rises with stucco on the entrance hall.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Slagathor said:


> ^^ Considering that nobody has the ready capacity to properly exploit this thing (neither NS, NMBS, SNCF, DB, or Eurostar has the necessary HS trains parked and ready somewhere), this is a pretty good fix. Of course it's completely different from the original promise, but then a lot has happened in the meantime.


NS does not want this to be a temporary fix, they want this to be the permanent thing.


Nowhere do they say they have ordered 250km/h trains, which they should have done by now if they want to run that service in about 4 years.


It's like you make a deal with someone to build a house. That person hires some Italians to build the house. He delivers that house to you half-finished, and during the first bit of snow the house starts falling apart.
The guy tells you the Italians are incompetent, stops mentioning building you a new, proper house and instead shows you a shed, going "Well, what do you think of this amazing shed you asked for?!".


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## radamfi (Aug 7, 2008)

Has Eurostar found a solution to the UK immigration problem? Are there going to be sealed off areas for passport checks? Will Eurostar allow traffic between Amsterdam and Brussels?


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## radamfi (Aug 7, 2008)

Has it been mentioned whether there still be a supplement to use the high speed line between Rotterdam and Schiphol?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> This "Benelux plus" is a truncated service to placate all stakeholders on the following route: Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag - Rotterdam (HSL) Breda (HSL) Antwerpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles. Lets analyze it:
> 
> - it uses, absurdily, the old railway between Schiphol and Rotterdam to serve Den Haag
> - it stops in Breda
> ...


For this bizarre trip the train will need 194 minutes (estimation by NS). The old Benelux did it in 164 minutes.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> This "Benelux plus" is a truncated service to placate all stakeholders on the following route: Amsterdam - Schiphol - Den Haag - Rotterdam (HSL) Breda (HSL) Antwerpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles. Lets analyze it:


I am willing to bet that this service will probably transport more passengers between the Netherlands and Belgium than all the others combined.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> I am willing to bet that this service will probably transport more passengers between the Netherlands and Belgium than all the others combined.


I don't think so (if you only count number of passengers crossing the B-NL border on each train, excluding domestic trips on this train).


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> I don't think so (if you only count number of passengers crossing the B-NL border on each train, excluding domestic trips on this train).


We will see. One thing the Fyra disaster has shown is that most of the passengers on the Brussel - Amsterdam route prefer a train that functions like a domestic IC, not a TGV.


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## radamfi (Aug 7, 2008)

If you go from Rotterdam to Breda to Antwerpen, can that be done without reversing in Breda?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

radamfi said:


> If you go from Rotterdam to Breda to Antwerpen, can that be done without reversing in Breda?


No.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

I for one am glad they are serving Den Haag with this train. Be better if it stopped at Leiden as well.

But 200km/h is extremely disappointing. You'd think they would aim for 249km/h at least. Maybe they could lease some TGV with the same spec as Thalys for a while?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

33Hz said:


> I for one am glad they are serving Den Haag with this train. Be better if it stopped at Leiden as well.


There is no need to stop in Leiden whatsoever. What is next? Stopping in Hoofdorp and Delft as well? The whole trip will already take 3h34 min (vs. 2h37min on Thalys...). 

In my opinion, they should run two separate trains:

12x day Amsterdam C - Schiphol - Rotterdam - Antwerpen - Zaventem - Bruxelles Midi

6x day Den Haag C. - Rotterdam - Breda - Anterwpen - Mechelen - Zaventem - Bruxelles Midi


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> There is no need to stop in Leiden whatsoever. What is next? Stopping in Hoofdorp and Delft as well?


Wikipedia: "the city forms one densely connected urban area with its suburbs Oegstgeest, Leiderdorp and Voorschoten. The larger Leiden agglomeration counts 332,000 inhabitants which makes it the sixth major agglomeration in the Netherlands."

Which is 3x bigger than Delft, for example.

Back in the day when this train did stop there (pre HSL Zuid), there was no shortage of people using it.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

33Hz said:


> Wikipedia: "the city forms one densely connected urban area with its suburbs Oegstgeest, Leiderdorp and Voorschoten. The larger Leiden agglomeration counts 332,000 inhabitants which makes it the sixth major agglomeration in the Netherlands."
> 
> Which is 3x bigger than Delft, for example.
> 
> Back in the day when this train did stop there (pre HSL Zuid), there was no shortage of people using it.


My point is: Leiden C. is too close to Den Haag HS and there are more than 70 trains per day connecting both.

The old Benelux train didn't call at Leiden AFAIK. It traveled straight from Schiphol to Den Haag HS.


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## radamfi (Aug 7, 2008)

Why will the Beneluxplus train take 194 minutes? I have the old timetable from Dec 2011 to Dec 2012 and the Benelux train left Amsterdam C at xx53, Rotterdam C at xx55, arriving at Antwerpen C at xx00 and Brussel Z at xx42. So 65 minutes from Rotterdam to Antwerp. The difference is stopping at Breda instead of Dordrecht and Roosendaal, and also stopping at Brussels airport.

Fyra gets 24 minutes at the moment to go from Rotterdam to Breda. Stopping at Brussels airport would probably add another 5 minutes. So in order for it to be slower than the old Benelux train it would need to take more than 36 minutes to reverse at Breda and travel to Antwerp. For it to take 194 minutes it would need to take nearly an hour to do that!


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## radamfi (Aug 7, 2008)

The Breda to Amsterdam IC via HSL-Zuid could connect on the adjacent platform so that passengers who want to get to Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam quicker can change trains while the Beneluxplus is turning around.


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

33Hz said:


> Wikipedia: "the city forms one densely connected urban area with its suburbs Oegstgeest, Leiderdorp and Voorschoten. The larger Leiden agglomeration counts 332,000 inhabitants which makes it the sixth major agglomeration in the Netherlands."
> 
> Which is 3x bigger than Delft, for example.
> 
> Back in the day when this train did stop there (pre HSL Zuid), there was no shortage of people using it.


A few years ago it was the 5th busiest station of the dutch railway network but that is also caused due to it's good conection with the other cities. In my opinion it shouldn't stop at Leiden or else it becomes an international sprinter. Also every 15 minutes a train departs to The Hague HS which takes you also around 15 minutes where you can hop on the benelux.


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## Theijs (Aug 15, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> The old Benelux train didn't call at Leiden AFAIK. It traveled straight from Schiphol to Den Haag HS.


It did, until 2000 or so. I assumed it carried mostly national travellers, as it was part of the 30 minute interval IC train Asd-Shl-Roosendaal


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## radamfi (Aug 7, 2008)

Theijs said:


> It did, until 2000 or so. I assumed it carried mostly national travellers, as it was part of the 30 minute interval IC train Asd-Shl-Roosendaal


I do remember the Benelux train being a part of the regular interval service. It must have been before 24 May 1998 as I just looked in the 1998-99 Spoorboekje and by then it was classed as an 'Int' train and didn't stop at Leiden in that timetable.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

*European Commission to take a look on HSL contracts*

Many people are wary of how the Dutch government is favoring NS over and over on HSL concession...



> The European Commission has begun an inquiry into whether the Dutch government is guilty of giving state support to railway company NS, something which is forbidden under EU law.
> 
> The case concerns the awarding of the contract for the high-speed line to the NS, according to NRC and based on sources at the transport ministry and the European Commission.
> 
> ...


- See more at: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...ommission_inquiry_in.php#sthash.560C5XJ7.dpuf


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Finally! :applause:


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## SAS 16 (Apr 9, 2013)

^^ Although i can uderstand the rage of the people it should better said "dont buy trains from ansaldobreda" as italian citiziens are not to blame on the wrongdoings of a private companyhno:


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

^^ Indeed, but I can see the funny side of it when the trains will be sent back to the factory, and they cross the border ... :lol:
On the other hand, if I were an Italian minister, I would accuse the Dutch government of involvment in this vandalism. I'd call it state-sponsored vandalism or something like that.

If it were summer, the newspapers would be filled for days
:cheers:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I think that is photoshoped...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

It has been announced that passengers on the future Amsterdam-London services will have to disembark and go through security/customs/immigration check in Bruxelles-Midi terminal when travelling to UK, but not when travelling to Netherlands.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

SAS 16 said:


> ^^ Although i can uderstand the rage of the people it should better said "dont buy trains from ansaldobreda" as italian citiziens are not to blame on the wrongdoings of a private companyhno:


Yes but AnsaldoBreda are not the makers of Italian food so then the joke wouldn't work. It _is_ just a joke.


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Absolutely hilarious, that


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> I think that is photoshoped...



It's not. However, the graffiti has already been removed.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> It has been announced that passengers on the future Amsterdam-London services will have to disembark and go through security/customs/immigration check in Bruxelles-Midi terminal when travelling to UK, but not when travelling to Netherlands.


Which means that the service will be doomed from the start.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

How much time does it take to shuffle passengers through customs ans security checks in Lille (for trains coming from the Alps during winter or Mediterranean in summer)


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> How much time does it take to shuffle passengers through customs ans security checks in Lille (for trains coming from the Alps during winter or Mediterranean in summer)


I dunno, but too long for me to consider taking the train to London.

Too bad, I would have chosen the train for sure if I could just stay seated and the stops wouldn't be too long.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

My guesstimate is that it will take 45 to 80 minutes depending on train load.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> My guesstimate is that it will take 45 to 80 minutes depending on train load.


Given that they can't just change the departure time of a train at will this means it will always be 80 minutes. Which makes the planned stops in Rotterdam and Antwerpen pointless.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> It has been announced that passengers on the future Amsterdam-London services will have to disembark and go through security/customs/immigration check in Bruxelles-Midi terminal when travelling to UK, but not when travelling to Netherlands.


It seems strange that someone has come out with this claim already, what's the source? Given that they have 3 years to sort this out - be it new facilities at the stations concerned or changing the law - it seems like someone jumped the gun.

Unless things change, they will have to make one of the through platforms at Brussels Midi able to be segregated. It's in the interest of Eurostar and DB to work together to stop the nonsense.

I'm sure from the British side there is a desire to stop illegal immigrants getting to UK soil and claiming asylum, which is the likely problem with a London only check. There are already security staff carrying out a ticket check after stopping trains depart Lille. I presume they are there to throw off anyone caught without a valid ticket to London at Calais. I don't see why this system can't be used to abolish the requirements on originating stations (perhaps limiting these to a simple ticket barrier system), with Amsterdam or Frankfurt trains making an unscheduled stop at Calais to remove anyone attempting to stay on the train to the UK.


Otherwise I agree. If this is enforced, the idea is a dead duck.


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## VITORIA MAN (Jan 31, 2013)

Nexis said:


>


 better a spanish one


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## Christopher125 (Mar 10, 2011)

K_ said:


> Which means that the service will be doomed from the start.


I don't agree - if anything it may _improve_ the economics of the service, as it should allow domestic passengers to use the service between Amsterdam and Brussels. The whole Fyra mess has provided an opening in the market, and with the announcement that Eurostar are hoping to put in a joint bid for the East Coast franchise in the UK it seems they are making a deliberate effort to diversify beyond international services. 

Chris


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

K_ is right, this arrangement would pretty much kill the service. Might as well fly and go through the security check in Amsterdam without the added inconvenience of taking your seat then getting out for 80 min and then getting back on again. Sure some people will still take it, but it will be <50% of what it otherwise could have been.

Also I wonder about the capacity reductions at Brussels Midi with trains just standing there for an hour.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

With just 2 trains per day, the costs of putting immigration booths on Dutch stations is too high. We'd need like 10 London-Netherlands services to justify the investment in gates, segregated platforms and convince the Brits to send some officers to staff the stations


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Or just switch to "on the roll" checks, like on Finland-Russia border... The delta of wealth level between UK and France/Belgium/Netherlands seems to be even lower then between Russia and Finland.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

XAN_ said:


> Or just switch to "on the roll" checks, like on Finland-Russia border... The delta of wealth level between UK and France/Belgium/Netherlands seems to be even lower then between Russia and Finland.


This is not the issue.

Major problem is that British law establishes or grant special rights to asylum seekers if the apply for status on British soil. If someone arrives by train in UK and claims asylum, that person will (by virtue of law) get rights to some emergence accommodation, various hearings, social services while waiting 2-4 years and probably illegal work in the meantime. 

It is unlikely the Brits will change this law just for the sake of Eurostar services


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> This is not the issue. Major problem is that British law establishes or grant special rights to asylum seekers if the apply for status on British soil. If someone arrives by train in UK and claims asylum, that person will (by virtue of law) get rights to some emergence accommodation, various hearings, social services while waiting 2-4 years and probably illegal work in the meantime. It is unlikely the Brits will change this law just for the sake of Eurostar services


How is this solved at British airports?


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

You can't board a plane bound for UK (or any other country outside Schengen area) without showing a valid ID containing a visa if it's not from a country with which UK has a visa free travel treaty.

Airlines are held responsible if someone without an obvious right of entering UK is admitted on board.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Sunfuns said:


> You can't board a plane bound for UK (or any other country outside Schengen area) without showing a valid ID containing a visa if it's not from a country with which UK has a visa free travel treaty. Airlines are held responsible if someone without an obvious right of entering UK is admitted on board.


But there is no UK border police stationed at other airports...
Also this "airlines are held responsible" means in practice that the airline has to transport the person back if he is refused entry. Given that the marginal cost for a seat is very low for Eurostar I don't see why they couldn't just do the same.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

No, but there is an official border control from the departing country. In Basel airport, for example, there is a special segregated corner with 3-4 gates for flights outside Schengen area (mostly UK, Turkey and Balkan states) and I don't think any potential refugees would be admitted there. There must be some international agreement about these kinds of things.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, this means that airline practice can be extended to Eurostar.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> But there is no UK border police stationed at other airports...
> Also this "airlines are held responsible" means in practice that the airline has to transport the person back if he is refused entry. Given that the marginal cost for a seat is very low for Eurostar I don't see why they couldn't just do the same.





XAN_ said:


> Well, this means that airline practice can be extended to Eurostar.


UK doesn't allow citizens of many countries to travel to an UK airport without proper visas, in some cases even for airside transfers, but if someone does arrive without it, this person might claim asylum in UK.

It is not a matter of sending the passenger back, but providing an alternate loophole for people who want to claim asylum (in a scenario where more than 95% of all claims are ultimately rejected after years of appeals and so on).

Theoretically Eurostar could adopt this practice, putting people on origin countries in charge of making sure everyone has visas or IDs, using advance passenger information systems etc. That would require creating of separate departure areas on stations in the continent, though.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> UK doesn't allow citizens of many countries to travel to an UK airport without proper visas, in some cases even for airside transfers, but if someone does arrive without it, this person might claim asylum in UK. It is not a matter of sending the passenger back, but providing an alternate loophole for people who want to claim asylum (in a scenario where more than 95% of all claims are ultimately rejected after years of appeals and so on). Theoretically Eurostar could adopt this practice, putting people on origin countries in charge of making sure everyone has visas or IDs, using advance passenger information systems etc. That would require creating of separate departure areas on stations in the continent, though.


So check passports on the train. If that is possible between Russia and Finland...


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Suburbanist said:


> UK doesn't allow citizens of many countries to travel to an UK airport without proper visas, in some cases even for airside transfers, but if someone does arrive without it, this person might claim asylum in UK.
> 
> It is not a matter of sending the passenger back, but providing an alternate loophole for people who want to claim asylum (in a scenario where more than 95% of all claims are ultimately rejected after years of appeals and so on).
> 
> Theoretically Eurostar could adopt this practice, putting people on origin countries in charge of making sure everyone has visas or IDs, using advance passenger information systems etc. That would require creating of separate departure areas on stations in the continent, though.


Well, they can check it on the go, starting from Lille and finishing before Calais, then detain any non-compliant passengers in Calain.


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

XAN_ said:


> Well, they can check it on the go, starting from Lille and finishing before Calais, then detain any non-compliant passengers in Calain.


So, you're basically saying "let the French take care of the problem"? (I live in France, but am not French myself.) Their crime is that they have an open border with Belgium/Netherlands? - Unlike the Brits who are still stuck in the chauvinism of an earlier century.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

hans280 said:


> So, you're basically saying "let the French take care of the problem"? (I live in France, but am not French myself.) Their crime is that they have an open border with Belgium/Netherlands? - Unlike the Brits who are still stuck in the chauvinism of an earlier century.


Well, Eurostar may reach agreement to return such passenger to their origin station... Anyway, this mechanism is supposed to scare of illegal migrants, not to get them in packs every hour.


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## Christopher125 (Mar 10, 2011)

Sunfuns said:


> K_ is right, this arrangement would pretty much kill the service. Might as well fly and go through the security check in Amsterdam without the added inconvenience of taking your seat then getting out for 80 min and then getting back on again. Sure some people will still take it, but it will be <50% of what it otherwise could have been.
> 
> Also I wonder about the capacity reductions at Brussels Midi with trains just standing there for an hour.


As I said, by requiring people to de-train at Brussels they can open up the service to domestic travellers between there and Amsterdam - this should more than make up for the impact on UK traffic, especially following the issues with Fyra.

As much as we might want the need for border and security checks to be reduced or removed there is no reason to think that is going to happen, nor are they going to be undertaken on-board or on arrival at St Pancras. That's the reality of the situation for the foreseeable future, which I'm sure Eurostar have taken into account.

As for capacity at Brussels, only trains leaving for London should actually need to depart from the segregated platforms - services from London could if necessary use the conventional platforms, whether they continue to Amsterdam or are then stabled awaiting the next departure to London. This may be more of an issue when DB start operating through the tunnel, as I believe they plan to split/join services at Brussels using separate portions.

Chris


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Christopher125 said:


> As I said, by requiring people to de-train at Brussels they can open up the service to domestic travellers between there and Amsterdam


So would getting rid of the security theatre...


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Why they just make the UK stations like international territory and put the border control on the exits....


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## Christopher125 (Mar 10, 2011)

Maadeuurija said:


> Why they just make the UK stations like international territory and put the border control on the exits....


It's not just an immigration issue but one of security too, passengers would still need to have their luggage screened before travelling through the Channel Tunnel and therefore the use of a secure platform.

I suppose there is also the risk of people trying to avoid going through security checks at stations once they'd reached British soil - for example by forcing an emergency stop or, as sadly happened some years back to a man who had been turned back at St Pancras, using the emergency door release to exit while moving. They may be excessive but I'm afraid the current arrangements are here to stay for both practical and political reasons.

Chris


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Christopher125 said:


> It's not just an immigration issue but one of security too, passengers would still need to have their luggage screened before travelling through the Channel Tunnel and therefore the use of a secure platform. I suppose there is also the risk of people trying to avoid going through security checks at stations once they'd reached British soil - for example by forcing an emergency stop or, as sadly happened some years back to a man who had been turned back at St Pancras, using the emergency door release to exit while moving. They may be excessive but I'm afraid the current arrangements are here to stay for both practical and political reasons. Chris


They exist for political reasons, as there are no practical reasons why luggage needs to be scanned...


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## Crownsteler (Aug 20, 2003)

Well I thought about Maadeuurija's suggestion too. 
Some of the problems you mentioned can easily be overcome. It was mentioned here that only 10% of the luggage needs to be checked. Which means random spotchecks are sufficient.
From what I gather, the engineer can already override the emergency stop as it is.
And when passport control is done on the moving train, an illegal can be apprehended before reaching British soil. Which pretty much solves all problems.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Why didn't they fit more? There is plenty of space left?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

It looks like they used the solar panels to apply some sort of pattern (although I'm not sure what it should resemble).


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

It has to do with the shadows of the NN-building I believe! And the added weight!


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Any chance of them building 2 or 3 tall buildings on the north side of the station?


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Now you're just trolling.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Slagathor said:


> Now you're just trolling.


No, this is a honest question. The vicinity of major stations are great places for high-rises (I'm not talking some 300m-high building). Today, the area north entrance is dominated by low-houses and some worn-down short buildings. They could well demolish some 2 blocks for a small cluster of 100-150m buildings.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

The North facade of the railway station was deliberately kept low to preserve the image and atmosphere of the neighborhood behind it. They're not now going to destroy those houses and build skyscrapers.

Particularly not since there is puh-lenty of space for skyscrapers in the city center. Anywhere. Literally. Pick an acre.


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

M-NL said:


> Why didn't they fit more? There is plenty of space left?


They measured the where there was on average the most sunlight on on the roof and thats how they got this pattern.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

M-NL said:


> Why didn't they fit more? There is plenty of space left?


What is the point of converting sunlight to electricity and than back to light at the exact same time and exact same location?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

"The Junk Yard" in Amsterdam


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Who knows, maybe after AB fixes the trains a private operator leases them on the cheap to compete with with international services again


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

You need to let go of this fantasy where these trains are in any way usable.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Who knows, maybe after AB fixes the trains a private operator leases them on the cheap to compete with with international services again


No private operator can afford unreliable trains. The only company that might conceivably be interested is Trenitalia. They seem to have no issue with single digit availability percentages...


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## Goy (Sep 27, 2014)

*Where can I see a map of Netherlands and Belgium HSR network?*


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Wikipedia.









Source: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogesnelheidslijn#mediaviewer/File:Hslbenelux.png

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogesnelheidslijn#Duitsland


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The Amsterdam - Utrecht - Arnhem line is not a high speed railway, it's only relevance is that ICE trains to Frankfurt run over that line.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Neither is Antwerp-Brussels, but it is on there as high speed trains run on that track.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Silly_Walks said:


> Neither is Antwerp-Brussels, but it is on there as high speed trains run on that track.


What about the Mechelen-Schaarrbeek link?


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Not sure that's high speed, but the point still stands: there are sections on that map that are not high speed, but because there are high speed trains running on them, as part of a route that includes actual high speed running, the lines are shown, no matter how low the speed.

The actual high speed rail sections are clearly marked, which is what the guy wanted to know.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> What about the Mechelen-Schaarrbeek link?


It's not faster than the historic line and will be really useful only once the
"Mechelen by-pass" will be available.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

> Wednesday, October 28, 2015
> 
> *Dutch minister resigns as final Fyra report is published*
> 
> DUTCH secretary of state for infrastructure Mrs Wilma Mansveld resigned on October 28 following the publication of a report into the Fyra high-speed fiasco, which places the blame for the debacle squarely with various current and former government ministers as well as Netherlands Railways (NS) and Belgian National Railways (SNCB).


Continue on http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...nal-fyra-report-is-published.html?channel=523


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

I'm glad a politician has finally had to pay for this but...



> Rolling stock was a core element of the Fyra crisis. The new trains could not be based on existing products because of the unique and complex specification. AnsaldoBreda won the contract to supply the trains, but it appears the other shortlisted candidate, Alstom, was not asked the same questions in the tendering procedure. Moreover, AnsaldoBreda was able to make modifications to its bid and design after the official final deadline for submitting bids. The report states that the tendering procedure was poorly managed and NS made significant errors in the procurement.
> 
> In 2004 NS's Dublin-based leasing subsidiary NS Financial Services concluded the contract with AnsaldoBreda for the V250 fleet and delivery was scheduled for 2007. However, NS already knew the timetable for introduction was unrealistic and had concerns about quality


Seems like nonsense for two reasons:

1) The Alstom-supplied Thalys sets can operate on HSL Zuid, Dutch and Belgian domestic lines and clearly the AGV platform could have been a starting point to reuse this expertise.

2) Hitachi managed to produce trains of similar specification in an unfamiliar market, interfacing with unfamiliar power and signalling systems, and they got it right first time and in the same timescale as the Fyra requirement.


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Yes. But AnsaldoBreda was cheaper and were willing to give the train its custom front-end.


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## Theijs (Aug 15, 2012)

MrAronymous said:


> Yes. But AnsaldoBreda was cheaper and were willing to give the train its custom front-end.


And I recall the President of NS presenting the deal with AnsaldoBreda: "we will have our own designed Albatross train by Perraferini (or what was the name). A regular TGV is too ordinary for us." That guy should hang at first place.


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albatross_(metaphor)


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## suasion (Sep 7, 2015)

^^^^^^^^^^

So appropriate. A cmmplete fiasco from start to finish. At least somebody has finally been held accountable, I can only hope some more heads will follow.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

MrAronymous said:


> Yes. But AnsaldoBreda was cheaper and were willing to give the train its custom front-end.


A few interesting points from the report:

After the first round Alstom was cheaper. AnsaldoBreda was only cheaper after NS took actions considered inappropriate during a tender.
AnsaldoBreda shouldn't have been allowed to bid in the first place, because they only had a bank guarantee from an A class bank, instead of a A1+ bank as required by the tender.
CAF was excluded because they had never been the main contractor for a HST project, but AnsaldoBreda wasn't, despite neither AB themselves or their predecessor Breda being the main contractor in a HST project in recent times.
AnsaldoBreda was an unknown manufacturer for NS. That's a huge risk
AnsaldoBreda claims the V250 is based on the ETR500. Really?
AnsaldoBreda accepted all change requests from NS without question
Alstom was not even asked if they could comply with most of these requests
The number of trains to be delivered changed several times during the tender, which in the end was the main reason for Alstom to leave the bidding process
The trains had to comply with a TSI that hadn't been published at the time of the tender yet (and at that time they also hadn't decided on which train control systems had to be fitted either)


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MrAronymous said:


> Yes. But AnsaldoBreda was cheaper and were willing to give the train its custom front-end.


It's quite ironic that AnsaldoBreda is now owned by Hitachi. Maybe we will see more Hitachi build Class 2 (and even Class 1) HST's in Europe. That would be a good thing.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Has there also been an investigation in the way the railways mistreated the passengers on the day the Fyra stopped running? Many passengers were told that they had no option but to buy an expensive on the spot Thalys ticket, and did so, this although they were entitled to travel on Thalys with their Fyra tickets as soon as those were cancelled.


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## suasion (Sep 7, 2015)

@ M-NL

Surely if true, this points to serious illegalities which should merit a criminal investigation
. 
Was any evidence of bribery found? It all has the appearance of doing everything possible to hand the contract to AB by corrupting the tendering process. 

Would Alstom have a valid legal case here against NS?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

It is really sad the V250 never achieved its purposes. AnsaldoBreda wanted to use the project as a showcase for its high-speed products, there were even rumors of they being in talks, at the time, to create "complete railway solutions" joint-ventures to pursue greenfield HST contratcts - at the time, several emerging economy countries were considering HST projects such as Mexico, Morocco, Argentina, Libya etc.


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## suasion (Sep 7, 2015)

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Its very sad it was selected in the first place.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> It is really sad the V250 never achieved its purposes. AnsaldoBreda wanted to use the project as a showcase for its high-speed products, there were even rumors of they being in talks, at the time, to create "complete railway solutions" joint-ventures to pursue greenfield HST contratcts - at the time, several emerging economy countries were considering HST projects such as Mexico, Morocco, Argentina, Libya etc.


If it was that important to them, Why didn't they put more effort in to it?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Is everything going fine with the new train orders for domestic high-speed services?


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## DingeZ (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, Siemens has appealed to the decision to favour Alstom as short-listed, but that is never surprising. If Siemens does not manage to stall the tender (likely), contracts should be signed this summer.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> Is everything going fine with the new train orders for domestic high-speed services?


What domestic high-speed services? They're aiming for 200 km/h service on the high speed line. To be classified as high speed on a high speed line, you need at least 230 km/h service. That's not going to happen any time soon.


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## MerlinTheKid (Jul 19, 2008)

Are there any mock-ups for the future domestic high speed train proposals?


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Eindhoven wants this










But I'd say upgrading the Amsterdam-Utrecht-Arnhem-Frankfurt corridor has a higher priority.


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## bench_mark_2 (Feb 23, 2012)

I am trying to understand why the line between Brussels and Amsterdam is so ineffective, but I could not find sufficient information in English. Does anyone know why, provided that the line was designed for speed of 186 mph, the journey tine is about 2 hours (I know that the trains are calling at Antwerp, Rotterdam and Schiphol) and at the moment it might be faster to drive between the two cities (ot between any two cities on the line) and 5-10 times cheaper than to take a train?


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

^^
Have you read in to the FYRA dissaster? 
Trains for 250km/h where ordered but where not taken in to propper operation (unsafe/bad construction/unreliable).

We have since been using a half-ass solution.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

bench_mark_2 said:


> I am trying to understand why the line between Brussels and Amsterdam is so ineffective, but I could not find sufficient information in English. Does anyone know why, provided that the line was designed for speed of 186 mph, the journey tine is about 2 hours (I know that the trains are calling at Antwerp, Rotterdam and Schiphol) and at the moment it might be faster to drive between the two cities (ot between any two cities on the line) and 5-10 times cheaper than to take a train?


There's nothing wrong with the line itself. Bear in mind:

1) Amsterdam Centraal to Schiphol is conventional track and it takes just over 15 minutes to cover a very short distance (which is why future trains might terminate at Amsterdam South instead).

2) There is no high speed track between Antwerp and Brussels, only conventional tracks. 

The journey times on the actual high speed track are very decent. To get from *Schiphol* to *Antwerp* with Thalys (which reaches 300km/h) takes only 56 minutes. 

But between Amsterdam and Schiphol and between Antwerp and Brussels, Thalys gets hopelessly stuck in regular traffic at speeds of 140 - 160 km/h.

Now, Thalys is a pretty exclusive service that runs all the way to Paris and it can be expensive if buy you a ticket on short notice. So the idea was to supplement Thalys with an additional Benelux high speed service called Fyra (to which da_scotty referred). The Fyra would run between Amsterdam and Brussels, with additional stops in places like Rotterdam, Antwerp, The Hague and Breda. But those trains were so poorly built, they had to be sent back to the manufacturer in Italy. The order was then canceled altogether.

They were then replaced with a last-minute temporary number of train sets that can only reach 160 km/h. Those are still running.

NS have ordered new intercity trains at Alstom which will be capable of traveling at 200 km/h. They will enter service from 2021.


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## mistertl (Sep 5, 2014)

bench_mark_2 said:


> I am trying to understand why the line between Brussels and Amsterdam is so ineffective, but I could not find sufficient information in English. Does anyone know why, provided that the line was designed for speed of 186 mph, the journey tine is about 2 hours (I know that the trains are calling at Antwerp, Rotterdam and Schiphol) and at the moment it might be faster to drive between the two cities (ot between any two cities on the line) and 5-10 times cheaper than to take a train?


Between Amsterdam and Schiphol and Antwerp and Brussels, the maximum speed of the trains is limited and congestion is severe at those parts of the journey.
But still, the difference in journey time between the city centers of Amsterdam and Brussels, is approximately 40 to 45 minutes (not taking road traffic into account) in favour of the train.
More interesting is the train between Amsterdam and Paris. The train now only takes 3h 21 and by car, it would take approximately than 5h 20, again without taking road traffix into account. 

Whether it's worth the price or not, that's of course up to you.


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## bench_mark_2 (Feb 23, 2012)

mistertl said:


> Between Amsterdam and Schiphol and Antwerp and Brussels, the maximum speed of the trains is limited and congestion is severe at those parts of the journey.
> But still, the difference in journey time between the city centers of Amsterdam and Brussels, is approximately 40 to 45 minutes (not taking road traffic into account) in favour of the train.
> More interesting is the train between Amsterdam and Paris. The train now only takes 3h 21 and by car, it would take approximately than 5h 20, again without taking road traffix into account.
> 
> Whether it's worth the price or not, that's of course up to you.


 So there are no plans for high speed railway lines between Amsterdam and the airport and between Antwerp and Brussels?

I am comparing this line with the East Coast Main Line which was built 170 years ago and where the travel time is much shorter than the line between Brussels and Amsterdam - after the new train sets arrive in 2018 the distance of 393 miles between King's X and Edinburgh could be taken in 3h and 30 min which makes an average speed of 112 mph. In comparison to that, Thalys takes the distance of 130 miles in almost 2 hours (1:50) which makes an average speed of less than 70 mph. 

Having in mind that this line connects 4 cities with population over one million people, and travels through one of the most densely populated areas of Europe and one of the most advanced in economic and general social aspect one too, maybe it's worth thinking how to achieve shorter travel times.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

bench_mark_2 said:


> So there are no plans for high speed railway lines between Amsterdam and the airport and between Antwerp and Brussels?


The distance between Schiphol and Amsterdam isn't that long and the route would require something like a tunnel, because there is a city in the way.
There was a plan for a HSL between Antwerp and Brussels, but the Belgians later decided to stick to upgrading the existing line and create a diversion via Zaventem airport.

Here is a cabride of a Thalys between Brussels and Amsterdam, which also shows the speedo. You will see that the actual time spent at high speed isn't that long.


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

^^ Yes, but mostly, the speed in the Brussels tunnel is disappointing. Of course they are limited by the infrastructure, many people stop at Brussels and it is still faster than street traffic, however, 50kph especially is pretty slow. Up to 200kph it would be worth to invest in between Antwerp and Brussels (and 160 pretty much became standard after some tweaks during the years), but for making the step towards 250 (pretty much the maximum of what would make sense on this distance if you will not scrap Antwerp which only will happen twice daily), a new tunnel should be dug underneath Brussels for all HST lines between Schaarbeek and Brussels South.

It would make sense however, as a relief for the six tracks in the tunnel is Welcome with the capital W


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

bench_mark_2 said:


> So there are no plans for high speed railway lines between Amsterdam and the airport and between Antwerp and Brussels?
> 
> I am comparing this line with the East Coast Main Line which was built 170 years ago and where the travel time is much shorter than the line between Brussels and Amsterdam - after the new train sets arrive in 2018 the distance of 393 miles between King's X and Edinburgh could be taken in 3h and 30 min which makes an average speed of 112 mph. In comparison to that, Thalys takes the distance of 130 miles in almost 2 hours (1:50) which makes an average speed of less than 70 mph.
> 
> Having in mind that this line connects 4 cities with population over one million people, and travels through one of the most densely populated areas of Europe and one of the most advanced in economic and general social aspect one too, maybe it's worth thinking how to achieve shorter travel times.




There is something you said well. There are two things however:
- The demand is somewhat moderated north of Brussels as being a spur of the bigger network. Amsterdam is not the biggest railway node, not even in its own country. Rotterdam is at the westernedge of the train network and north of Amsterdam is... cows in polders. Antwerp is also open on one side but you can expect that including some parts of the Netherlands there is a lot of demand from Antwerp as departure station to e.g. France. However, as you noted, these cities contain each a lot of inhabitants and their agglomerations are even more populated so despite their layout there is enough demand. Compare Kuala Lumpur-Singapore, the Singapore end is at its own, even though being independent, worth the investment for a line further to the mainland also noting Malaysia isn't as big as the hinterlands of Belgium and France (seen from the Netherlands) combined. And on a relatively small distance.


- So what holds us against finalizing the ends of the HST and a new HST East? Not our income, not our economic growth or potential, not even the price, it should be worth it and scraps a lot of flights to Germany and France. But there you got one of the points: France, the original HST consortium was partially with KLM who was taken over by Air France. It would be like shooting in their own leg. And there is massive political unwill: first we have to tweak a lot to our own network which is at the max of capacity almost anywhere while many people still deny the huge demand for quadrupling several hundreds of kilometers. Where the money goes to? Roads, asphalt, white elephants like the Sintrale As to Dokkum, the Victory Boogie-Woogie Tunnel in The Hague which will make four lanes end in the middle of the city which will serve the people to the middle of the city joining the jam and killing all traffic-calming solutions and eh... did someone ever check the fact that these CROW-norms about parking are overly car-facilitating for cities?


There you go. And our roads look like pool tables. So these excuses from especially the VVD are lame.


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## Theijs (Aug 15, 2012)

bench_mark_2 said:


> I am trying to understand why the line between Brussels and Amsterdam is so ineffective, but I could not find sufficient information in English. Does anyone know why, provided that the line was designed for speed of 186 mph, the journey tine is about 2 hours (I know that the trains are calling at Antwerp, Rotterdam and Schiphol) and at the moment it might be faster to drive between the two cities (ot between any two cities on the line) and 5-10 times cheaper than to take a train?


Only Schiphol (Amsterdam Airport) - Antwerpen is HSL.
After that concentional line until Bxl.
Thalys (TGV) uses the high speed line, Intercity Bxl a detour via Den Haag (in NL) and Brussels Airport (in BE).


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

The Polman said:


> ^^ Yes, but mostly, the speed in the Brussels tunnel is disappointing. Of course they are limited by the infrastructure, many people stop at Brussels and it is still faster than street traffic, however, 50kph especially is pretty slow. Up to 200kph it would be worth to invest in between Antwerp and Brussels (and 160 pretty much became standard after some tweaks during the years), but for making the step towards 250 (pretty much the maximum of what would make sense on this distance if you will not scrap Antwerp which only will happen twice daily), a new tunnel should be dug underneath Brussels for all HST lines between Schaarbeek and Brussels South.
> 
> It would make sense however, as a relief for the six tracks in the tunnel is Welcome with the capital W


1200 trains per day in that tunnel... Increasing the speed would have too big an impact on the track capacity. 

A parallel tunnel has been studied but because of géographic conditions it would have to be very deep and about 10 km long. Not affordable in the current economic conditions.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

bench_mark_2 said:


> I am trying to understand why the line between Brussels and Amsterdam is so ineffective, but I could not find sufficient information in English. Does anyone know why, provided that the line was designed for speed of 186 mph, the journey tine is about 2 hours


The line was not designed for a speed of 186 mph, it was designed for 300 kph...

And yes, it was not a good decision to build it. The money spend could have been used to upgrade the speed on quite a few lines, leading to shorter travel times for more people, and a sub 2h travel times on Brussel - Amsterdam should have been possible too.



> (I know that the trains are calling at Antwerp, Rotterdam and Schiphol) and at the moment it might be faster to drive between the two cities (ot between any two cities on the line) and 5-10 times cheaper than to take a train?


I doubt driving would be faster. By the time Thalys reaches Antwerpen you are probably still trying to get out of Brussel... 
It definitely won't be 5 times cheaper. The distance is 220km, which at 0.5 euro/km 110 euro. That's the same cost as a full flex 1st class Thalys ticket...

The main mistake the railways are making is that they are trying to compete with airlines. They forget that their main competitor is the car. They should concentrate at making train travel convenient and comfortable, and comparable in travel time for as many origin-destination pairs as possible.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Slagathor said:


> NS have ordered new intercity trains at Alstom which will be capable of traveling at 200 km/h. They will enter service from 2021.


They should order a few Giruno's in stead. I think that train would be ideal for a Amsteram - Brussel IC service.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes but the Alstom things will be largely for domestic traffic with just a few 3kV capable for the service to Brussels. A bit like what they did with the hondekoppen 50 years ago.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Why is actually everyone ignoring the HSL between Mechelen and Scharbeek? This line is designed for speeds of up to 220 km/h and is the least densely frequented section between Antwerpen and Brussel.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

For thé moment this line is only 160 km/h and with the détour through the airport is much longer than the old line 25.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> For thé moment this line is only 160 km/h and with the détour through the airport is much longer than the old line 25.


But trains running over that line don't have to do the detour... NMBS could run all Antwerpen - Brussel IC services over that line, as well as Thalys...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

This will probably happen once the Mechelen by-pass is operational.


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## bench_mark_2 (Feb 23, 2012)

K_ said:


> The line was not designed for a speed of 186 mph, it was designed for 300 kph...
> 
> And yes, it was not a good decision to build it. The money spend could have been used to upgrade the speed on quite a few lines, leading to shorter travel times for more people, and a sub 2h travel times on Brussel - Amsterdam should have been possible too.
> 
> ...


 I have watched the video posted above and it seems to me that a new railway line between the South Station in Brussels ending north of Antwerp Central Station would resolve the speed problems in Belgium. Such a line would apparently require a new twin bore tunnel under Brussels with no intermediate stations (which will keep the construction costs low) and a new tunnel under Antwerp with a new station under Antwerp Central. This station might be constructed in compliance with the British requirements so that the Eurostar might be calling at it. 

Then a second tunnel from the end of the high speed line in the Netherlands might be added, starting just before Schiphol and going to Amsterdam Central where a new Eurostar terminal adjacent to the present station (maybe to its North side) might be constructed. 
This would allow for travel times of one hour to Brussels and less than 3 hours to London. This would also allow that all big Dutch and Belgium cities are connected directly with a modern high speed line to London and Paris. 



With regard to the comparison with a car trip – the cost of the fuel between Amsterdam and Brussels is about 10 pounds and 3-4 people can travel much more comfortably, provided that you have a nice car (for example like the car below), than the first class offered by Thalys. This makes the cost per person 100 times lower.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

bench_mark_2 said:


> I have watched the video posted above and it seems to me that a new railway line between the South Station in Brussels ending north of Antwerp Central Station would resolve the speed problems in Belgium. Such a line would apparently require a new twin bore tunnel under Brussels with no intermediate stations (which will keep the construction costs low) and a new tunnel under Antwerp with a new station under Antwerp Central.
> This station might be constructed in compliance with the British requirements so that the Eurostar might be calling at it.


Feel free to offer to pay for it...

BTw, there is already a tunnel under Antwerpen...



> With regard to the comparison with a car trip – the cost of the fuel between Amsterdam and Brussels is about 10 pounds and 3-4 people can travel much more comfortably, provided that you have a nice car (for example like the car below), than the first class offered by Thalys. This makes the cost per person 100 times lower.


No car is as comfortable as first class in Thalys. So far I know not a single make of passenger car offers toilets, or at seat meals, or standing head room...
And at least one person has to drive it. The biggest drawback of cars.
And a car that doesn't require maintenance and does not depreciate does not exist either, which is why just comparing fuel costs with a train ticket is comparing apples with something that isn't even a fruit...

For me the only comfortable seat in a car is the front passenger seat, so a correct comparison of prices would start with fuel+maintenance+depreciation+driver pay, and that all to transport one person. Now compare with a first class Thalys ticket...


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

bench_mark_2 said:


> Then a second tunnel from the end of the high speed line in the Netherlands might be added, starting just before Schiphol and going to Amsterdam Central where a new Eurostar terminal adjacent to the present station (maybe to its North side) might be constructed.


There's already a tunnel being constructed underneath Amsterdam: the North-South subway line.

This will make it possibly for international trains like Thalys and Eurostar to terminate at Amsterdam South which will soon be expanded after the motorway running alongside it is put underground.

From Schiphol to Amsterdam South is only 7 minutes and the station sits right in the middle of Amsterdam's financial district. And as of 2018, it will have a direct subway connection to the historic city center.


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

K_ said:


> The line was not designed for a speed of 186 mph, it was designed for 300 kph...
> 
> And yes, it was not a good decision to build it. The money spend could have been used to upgrade the speed on quite a few lines, leading to shorter travel times for more people, and a sub 2h travel times on Brussel - Amsterdam should have been possible too.




I do not agree about the lack of necessity. Between Schiphol and Breda, the old lines make more than a few detours in order to get from one city to another: Dordrecht and The Hague. Even if the upgraded line was 4-tracked all over the place still then the voltage and safety system had to be upgraded which would have cost a lot at that time and would cause huge incompatibilities with the current system. And the railways would still be cramped at some points, near The Hague (Hollands Spoor etc) there would have been a shortage of space. Also, it would not have cut travel times between Rotterdam and Amsterdam and Rotterdam and Breda at all because of the detours. It is the only reasonable alternative for many people from the North of Holland to work in Rotterdam and the other way around, it also enables many people from Brabant to work in The Hague or Rotterdam reachable within an hour. The old train was slower than the car, the HST is much faster even more psychologically.


And because now there is this HSR with a second-hand train, cargo can be detoured from the Betuweroute and so we still have 4 trains an hour Rotterdam-Breda. Without it there were only two. And these four are FULL during peak hours. And because these lines, opposed to the Thalys are open trains, it saves 15-40 minutes of train travel for more than 50,000 people daily*, up to 100,000 including the Eindhoven-The Hague service, and yes, including me. At speeds that would never have been reached via either Dordrecht or The Hague.


The NS also realised that this line should continue to operate at all costs, because it not only provides the necessary relief for the existing network but changes to the speed that are able to be made on other lines would not be sufficient to the old lines here at all. And last but not least, the HST shortens the travel time of Amsterdam-Brussels by almost an hour. Those 30 minutes extra being saved seem nothing to the average neoliberal nimby, but the most important change that the Thalys on this line brings is not visible for the mad farmer, but is existential: economic growth, jobs, less traffic jams, ease of movement for foreigners who otherwise would go flying, we saved a damn lot of kerosene and space for flights to Bengaluru** from Schiphol.


*if it weren't for the unstable service
** not only Bengaluru, the number of potential flights to Paris and even Brussels is high, also because of the takeover of KLM by Air France. If this saves 32 air movements a day, this saves 25,000 ones a year. These take slots for potentially 5 million passengers with 200 passengers per flight demanding on the configuration. That is about the same as the size of EasyJet at Schiphol or Eindhoven Airport as a whole.


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## bench_mark_2 (Feb 23, 2012)

Slagathor said:


> There's already a tunnel being constructed underneath Amsterdam: the North-South subway line.
> 
> This will make it possibly for international trains like Thalys and Eurostar to terminate at Amsterdam South which will soon be expanded after the motorway running alongside it is put underground.
> 
> From Schiphol to Amsterdam South is only 7 minutes and the station sits right in the middle of Amsterdam's financial district. And as of 2018, it will have a direct subway connection to the historic city center.


This line has been under planning/construction for decades and it seems that it will eventually open in 2018. If the Eurostar and Thalys terminate at Amsterdam South, this would significantly deteriorates the level of services. Amsterdam Central has a great location, in the historic centre of the town, within easy access to the Central Square. Most passengers on the Eurostar and Thalys would like to go there, not in the Business District which is not even in Amsterdam (I believe it is no A10 which is the orbital motorway of the town, is it not?).

With regard to the necessity of additional tunnels, I believe that the future of the passenger transport in Western and Central Europe is the high speed rail. The new line in England is designed for speed of 250 miles per hour (400 kilometres per hour) which will allow amuch shorter travel times in the future, providing rail services from town centre to town centre at relatively low costs and environmentally friendly. This is why it is important that the lines that are currently being built are designed for higher speeds, preferably 250 mph.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Nuke it from orbit.


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## jonathanNCJ (Jan 26, 2014)

why?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

jonathanNCJ said:


> why?


Slagthor and some others are not big fans of the Fyra project and don't like Ansaldo Breda trains in general.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Yeah gee I wonder why.


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)

Suburbanist said:


> Slagthor and some others are not big fans of the Fyra project and don't like Ansaldo Breda trains in general.


omg! 

the stereotype fair!
you are racist because is she Italian, why don't you build the trains in Holland?
you can use the German high-speed trains that derail once every three months!
Ansaldo it's a company with 100 years of history that has sold trains all over the world!
and how to say that the Boeing is a s-itty company because there was a construction defect on their plane


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## Theijs (Aug 15, 2012)

intersezioni said:


> you are racist because is she Italian


Ho ho! Don’t accuse people for racism when it isn’t. Ben je op je pik getrapt?



> Why don't you build the trains in Holland?


Because Werkspoor got bankrupt.



> You can use the German high-speed trains that derail once every three months!


We do use them and they don’t derail in NL.



> Ansaldo it's a company with 100 years of history that has sold trains all over the world!


That doesn’t say anything about the quality of the Fyra trains delivered to NL. That the design and manufacturing didn’t meet the expectations was obvious. This way Ansaldo ruined its reputation. But to be honest, the trains delivered to Danish Railways didn’t meet the expectations either.

So, are you surprised that not everybody appreciates products designed and produced by AnsalsoBreda?
Is a person for that reason a racist?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

intersezioni said:


> omg!
> 
> the stereotype fair!
> you are racist because is she Italian, why don't you build the trains in Holland?
> ...


hmm, I think that is a serious personal attack. Some forumers are biased against Ansaldo Breda not because it is/was an Italian company, but because it cleverly exploited a badly written tender for rolling stock to its advantage, and then suffered tethering and final-assembly problems. But the situation was salvageable and that the V250 are running in Italy is a testament to that.


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

^^ Well yes after they've been rebuild with supervision of Hitachi.
Meanwhile they've started testing it's succesor at Velim.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> hmm, I think that is a serious personal attack. Some forumers are biased against Ansaldo Breda not because it is/was an Italian company, but because it cleverly exploited a badly written tender for rolling stock to its advantage, and then suffered tethering and final-assembly problems. But the situation was salvageable and that the V250 are running in Italy is a testament to that.


Oh I never denied that NS carries most of the blame for the entire debacle.

But those trains were still sh!t.


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## davide84 (Jun 8, 2008)

3737 said:


> ^^ Well yes after they've been rebuild with supervision *of Hitachi.*


Better: after they've been rebuilt with cooperation *from Trenitalia*, the train operator. Which did what NS and SNCB did not want to do, or were not able to do.

The trains were shit - there's plenty of official documentation on that - but from the technical point of view the situation was always salvageable, as Suburbanist wrote.
The trains are not shit anymore and there is no need to nuke them, as they are on the way to generate passenger revenues by the end of the year 

AnsaldoBreda was punished hard enough by failing and being sold to a bigger company, I think it couldn't have been worse for them - no excuses and chapter closed. Now I am curious to see what will happen with the next high-speed procurement tender in the Netherlands, if any.


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

^^ There isn't any. 
After the whole Fyra failure, the high speed concession has been integrated into the dutch network concession (hoofdrailnet).
NS has this concession until 2025.


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## Sixhaven (Jan 20, 2016)

I don’t think there is any market for high-speed rail within the Netherlands. Thalys takes 19 minutes between Rotterdam and Amsterdam Schiphol Airport at 300 km/h, Intercity Direct takes 24 minutes at 160 km/h on the same line. That’s likely going to be reduced to something like 22 minutes when ICNG is introduced in 2021. Whoever wants to pay a high-speed premium price if it’s only going to save you three minutes?


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Who is going to reserve a seat to use a high speed rail line for a random short trip ? The ICd is jam packed every morning.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

The Fyra trains were not reservation-only.


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## Sixhaven (Jan 20, 2016)

No, but if you didn’t book in advance you had to pay a € 7,40 supplement just for Amsterdam-Rotterdam.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Sixhaven said:


> No, but if you didn’t book in advance you had to pay a € 7,40 supplement just for Amsterdam-Rotterdam.


Well, Fura supplements were reduced, then eliminated for the Breda-Rotterdam section, then eliminated from Schiphol - Amsterdam Centraal.

The supplements had, as far as I know, a fixed value regardless of your original ticket. The discount was for a monthly subscription.


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)

A great return


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)




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## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

Better livery than the Fyra.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Look if you don't wan't to provoke the discussion that we had, then don't post this is the dutch section, but only in the italian sections.

You don't want any negative comments on the train, but do poke the preverbial bear.


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)

da_scotty said:


> Look if you don't wan't to provoke the discussion that we had, then don't post this is the dutch section, but only in the italian sections.
> 
> You don't want any negative comments on the train, but do poke the preverbial bear.


I'm here for the same reason as the Dutch TV that makes a television service in Italy! are you also a dictator?


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

It's fine by me, but don't throw a hissy-fit if people post things with a different view then your (italian) point of view. Last time someone reacted on the V250/Etr700 in this topic you went beserk, so my advise was. If you don't want to hear negative opinions about the train, you might not want to post it here.

And just on a personal note, really stop the exaggeration by straight away calling people racist or dictators, it's over the top and moves away from a propper discussion.


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## davide84 (Jun 8, 2008)

I kind of see your point, da_scotty, but in this very case intersezioni just posted two videos about the trains, his only comment was "great return". As he mentioned, even Dutch TV vas at the event, that's clearly in-topic.

Despite what might have happened in the past, to report that they entered service is not an insult to you or your country, it's just what happened today


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

davide84 said:


> I kind of see your point, da_scotty, but in this very case intersezioni just posted two videos about the trains, his only comment was "great return". As he mentioned, even Dutch TV vas at the event, that's clearly in-topic.
> 
> Despite what might have happened in the past, to report that they entered service is not an insult to you or your country, it's just what happened today


Oh i dont feel insulted at all, i Just pointing out that it might not be the best timing or topic. One second later i am a dictator.


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## otternase (Sep 12, 2017)

intersezioni said:


> A great return


it is a "return"

If this return will be "great", only the future can show. Will the trains be reliable? How much was invested in preparing them for a return to service? How much will be invested per service kilometre for keeping them in service?

It will be interesting to see, if they will turn out to be great. But by now it is really too soon to tell.


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

My money is on disappointment.


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)

davide84 said:


> I kind of see your point, da_scotty, but in this very case intersezioni just posted two videos about the trains, his only comment was "great return". As he mentioned, even Dutch TV vas at the event, that's clearly in-topic.
> 
> Despite what might have happened in the past, to report that they entered service is not an insult to you or your country, it's just what happened today


Bravo.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

otternase said:


> it is a "return"
> 
> If this return will be "great", only the future can show. Will the trains be reliable? How much was invested in preparing them for a return to service? How much will be invested per service kilometre for keeping them in service?
> 
> It will be interesting to see, if they will turn out to be great. But by now it is really too soon to tell.


Would be indeed interesting to know how much money was invested to fix the trains, they say it was a easy fix yet it took years to get the trains back in to service and only after Japanese expertise/control. Does anyone have a number how much it was to put the trains back in to service?

Let's see how reliable the trains are after a full year of service, for now the trains have returned, if it's a good/bad/mediocre return we have to find out. Let's see how much they are used, how reliable they are and how much they are used.

My only point was that calling it a "great return" is maybe adding insult to injury to dutch train fans. The last time intersezioni posted here he started naming people racist in a second, now he calls me a dictator.

_If he can't handle comments on his beloved italian train, then maybe you shouldn't post it here. That was my point. And that point was proven two seconds later when intersezioni started name-calling again after a comment. You can react "bravo", but on point reaction remain missing from him._


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## davide84 (Jun 8, 2008)

I am looking forward to try the trainset, next time I go to Italy.

Something I discovered yesterday: despite running between Milan and Bologna, the trains are currently not using the new HSL. It will likely come at a later stage and it's probably a bureocratic issue rather than a technical one (similar to Zurich - Venice EC trains between Milan and Brescia).


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

^^
Care to make interior pictures  ?

_For the italian forum ofcourse!  _


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## otternase (Sep 12, 2017)

Slagathor said:


> My money is on disappointment.


I beg to differ. I am pretty sure the trains will run and will run reliable. I am quite sure they will invest whatever it takes to make them run.

This is, as you can see for example by the posts of @intersezioni an issue of national pride.
The Italian operators will do whatever they can to make them run and prevent further bad headlines. And the new owner of AnsaldoBreda, the Japanese, will do whatever they can to demonstrate that Hitachi Europe is a competent train builder.

I am pretty sure in this specific case there will be no controller questioning whether or not it is reasonable to invest in these trains, to invest in improvements of reliability.

And given enough money, the will to suceed and the support from Japanese engineering, any train operation, also this one, can be made reliable.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

When you throw enough time, money and Japanese people at something, you can make anything a success. But how much national pride is left, after all that?


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)

@da_scotty
I see that you continue to offend my people with phrases with double meaning (Japanese control!)
we understood that you hate Italians and are full of prejudices towards us!
Holland is a great country! we await the holland in the G7 together with Italy!


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## davide84 (Jun 8, 2008)

Ok, now with the G7 you are being provocative... hope da_scotty will let it go...

Pictures: of course I'll make them, unfurtunately that may not be very soon.

Pride and reliability: I think you are underestimating Trenitalia, the operator, and overestimating the "Japanese factor". Of course Hitachi is eager to get some proof that the project was not completely wrong, but Trenitalia is eager as well to satisfy its customers and keep up the competition with the private high-speed competitor. In the last 20 years Trenitalia has improved its quality a lot, and from the technical point of view they have plenty of internal technical know-how.
We'll see


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

intersezioni said:


> @da_scotty
> I see that you continue to offend my people with phrases with double meaning (Japanese control!)
> we understood that you hate Italians and are full of prejudices towards us!
> Holland is a great country! we await the holland in the G7 together with Italy!


Right.......


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)




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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Interior has improved big time


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## intersezioni (Oct 24, 2011)

da_scotty said:


> Interior has improved big time


The nose of the train does not like it but it must be said that from now on this train has two positive things: the interior and the large windows.
We will evaluate the technical part over time.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

I recently travelled for the first time on a Fyra, on vehicle 93 83 0700 481-3 I-TI. This is coach #4 of Trenitalia's ETR 700 set #05. On the nose of the train, there are both Trenitalia's set number #05 and NMBS/SNCB's #4881. Each coach of the consist is numbered from 181 to 881. So the vehicles received a new EVN model number (the "93 83 0700" part), but they retained their original set number.

After asking on an Italian forum I cann tell that apparently the Fyra have been renumbered by Trenitalia in the original order, but with a few exceptions. I mean, #4801 became ETR 700.001 and so on, but:
ETR 700.003 has not been delivered yet, and it will be either 4803 or 4882
ETR 700.005 was #4881
ETR 700.017 was #4883 (there was no #4817)

The two remaining sets will not be adapted to Italian standards and will be used for spares. These are likely 4805 and one of either 4803 or 4882.

As for the comfort, the second class interiors sucks: the seats don't line up with windows, and there are some seats completely blind, with no view to the outside world. But most modern trains suck in that respect. Otherwise, it is a normal train, the seats are better than those used by SBB, but there are too few toilets (5 in an 8 car train). For NS and SNCB-NMBS they have been a nightmare, but for Trenitalia these trains have been good value for money: they are not particularly good trains, but they were cheap.


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## davide84 (Jun 8, 2008)

This update just reminded me of my ride on a ETR.700 from Milan to Venice in July 2021. The train looked "ok" for me, meaning that it works, runs well, it just feels a bit "cheap" both regarding comfort/noise and 2nd class interiors. A bit essential, maybe even "outdated" in the materials and design. But it does its job of going from A to B in the assigned slot, so apparently the rebuild was successful.


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