# Does High Density Make People Miserable?



## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

ilovecoffee said:


> I keep hearing “people are seeking the centrality”? isn’t that that same as density?


Not necessarily, no; at least not in big cities. Since I presume you challenged my post, let me detail my example a bit more: the place I live in is still very dense, but it is quite far away from central Paris - I just had a look and it would apparently take me an almost two hour long walk to reach Notre Dame. And because of the distance, is has nothing of the positives of centrality, despite the density. There are no museums, landmarks and old heritage, almost no culture venues, no places to go out at night, very little in terms of cafés and terraces, no pedestrian streets or other quality public spaces. 

Conversely, the other French cities that I mentioned have very successful central areas despite what turn out to be surprisingly low density figures. (Let me know if you're interested in the actual facts and figures for any of the stuff that I have mentioned so far.)



ilovecoffee said:


> Problems that come along with density; congestion, pollution noise, crime, all have their solutions through innovation engineering and policy. Ideally, planners should base their decisions around reducing these problems, leaving the planning decisions to the community and not a few personnel who are motivated by profit and not the quality of living standards.


Well said!


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## ilovecoffee (Jul 9, 2013)

alexandru.mircea said:


> Not necessarily, no; at least not in big cities. Since I presume you challenged my post, let me detail my example a bit more: the place I live in is still very dense, but it is quite far away from central Paris - I just had a look and it would apparently take me an almost two hour long walk to reach Notre Dame. And because of the distance, is has nothing of the positives of centrality, despite the density. There are no museums, landmarks and old heritage, almost no culture venues, no places to go out at night, very little in terms of cafés and terraces, no pedestrian streets or other quality public spaces.
> 
> Conversely, the other French cities that I mentioned have very successful central areas despite what turn out to be surprisingly low density figures. (Let me know if you're interested in the actual facts and figures for any of the stuff that I have mentioned so far.)
> 
> ...


You don’t really need the landmarks, museums, etc., though, I was talking more on amenities such as food, healthcare, entertainment, transportation , a job, etc. Sure, it would be nice to have access to those things but, it’s not necessary.

Central Paris may have the landmarks that tourist want, but there are other administrative centers (like Montreul,Nanterre) within the metro that serve the surrounding populous. I.e., there isn’t much reason to ever leave your 1 mile radius unless you really want to see that landmark or museum. 
Also, I assume Paris is abound with cafes, and nightlife all over as with most big European cities.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

ilovecoffee said:


> I was talking more on amenities such as food, healthcare, entertainment, transportation , a job, etc.


OK cool, but the discussion was what makes inner cities desirable. The degree to which outer city districts provide the basics offers little insight into that. (Although I have to mention that entertainment is not one of the basics btw.)


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

Jonesy55 said:


> There is, you just won't find it in the middle of London or some other expensive areas.
> 
> For example £140,000 ($170,000) for this 131m2 3-bedroom apartment is not unreasonably expensive I think.
> 
> http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-62792420.html


That apartment is nice but I don't think its an example of what is available in most places. In Cheshire (Where I currently live) £150,000.00 apartment would be 2 bedrooms with just 1 reception/kitchen space and a bathroom.

But for the same price I could get a house with a garden which I would prefer.


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

I think it is not the case. Rather I see a minimum density for in case people are not self-sufficient. When you're a good farmer then a low density is okay. An Atlanta suburb however can be choking as amenities are too far away when you cannot drive a car in most cases.

Too dense? I think there are more factors that determine it:
- Architecture: gray(-ish) and repetitive is never good, a colourful sight is always better.
- Even better: lush greenness gives a less stressful feeling, green walls for the win!
- Sunshine: the sun should be able to penetrate to at least one of your windows for at least 1m2 during at least one half of the year (my own reckoning). Or at least 90 days in practice. In Britain this gives you much less room for high densities with tall buildings than in Dubai. Lack of windows is always bad. And you'd be happier when you experience light in your house anyway, so when you come back home from work late, then you better live in Medan than Surabaya. About the last city actually, I just had to go outside as I felt not happy in my own room without windows. That makes really depressing.

- Amenities: the more you can access a lifestyle of health and fun, it actually gives an advantage over suburban life. At least, when you can access what you like. People might actually be happier in a European suburb than in an Arab downtown as you can drive to casino's, cafe's, _coffeeshops_, clubs and brothels anyway in the first case but is prohibited in the other case. Or maybe you'd like all those things but prefer being alone in the desert, then being downtown neither works.
- Is your house adopted to your style: if not, the interior is more likely the problem. And not only the interior itself, it is also about if you can keep these insects outside and everything works well. And the colour of your lamp may be too cold and too bright.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

^excellent post. 

RE windows: my missus has worked in several hospitals where the section she'd be in was located at the heart of the building, far from the exteriour walls, so there would be no windows to the outside and no natural light. It really does your head in, according to her. 

RE colour in architecture: agreed on this one too. I find it strange that there's so much architecture in North-Western Europe that is a variation of grey / brown / beige / white that all look depressing during the ugly half of the year, with little sunlight. It's lovely from April to around September, but after that it can be soul-destroying. Scandinavia does it better, with a lot of lively colouring (blue, red, ochre etc). The Belgian red-brick towns are great too. As a Dutchman, how do you feel about the dark brown brick of traiditional Dutch architecture?


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## messicano (Sep 27, 2010)

I hate density,but i love the things that have a big city,many people is in my situation


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

alexandru.mircea said:


> ^excellent post.
> RE colour in architecture: agreed on this one too. I find it strange that there's so much architecture in North-Western Europe that is a variation of grey / brown / beige / white that all look depressing during the ugly half of the year, with little sunlight. It's lovely from April to around September, but after that it can be soul-destroying. Scandinavia does it better, with a lot of lively colouring (blue, red, ochre etc). The Belgian red-brick towns are great too. As a Dutchman, how do you feel about the dark brown brick of traiditional Dutch architecture?


Thanks at first ,

And at second, I love our architecture but indeed, I rather like having big windows and sunny weather especially during winter. This winter wasn't bad as December was pretty sunny during the crucial afternoon hours (it is within a trend as well, as the annual sunshine here is increasing very quickly from about 1400 to 1800 hours/annum in just 30 years). I believe there is _some _room for high altitudes and skyscrapers, though 10-15 floors continuously is the max when using light and/or colourful materials, while skyscrapers can be built in between them. The ten floors will be about 35m, requiring a very wide street of 40m on March 20 or September 23 to catch the ground here. I reckon hereby downtown Rotterdam as a good example when seeing modern development, where the roads are wide, glass is clean and the colour of the New Orleans is giving a warm atmosphere in Rotterdam even during winter months. And of course shops can fill in the ground floor so that contracts from the 40m wide street.

And curving the street or having gaps from crossing streets also enables the sun to come from other angles, likely also before March 20 and after September 23.

However, I do not like the grim and gloomy architecture that we used in the 1960s and 1970s especially in tower blocks, in which Rotterdam and parts of Utrecht give some of the worst examples.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

No correlation. You don't see people shooting and robbing each other in Japan's largest cities. There are a lot of suicides, but they don't seem that miserable over there.

They don't score so bad on the happiness index either : http://worldhappiness.report/


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

hkskyline said:


> No correlation. You don't see people shooting and robbing each other in Japan's largest cities. There are a lot of suicides, but they don't seem that miserable over there.
> 
> They don't score so bad on the happiness index either : http://worldhappiness.report/




Despite low sunshine hours, Tokyo is located at the same latitude as Los Angeles, Crete and northern Morocco, where the sun shines really high in the sky compared to more northern locations. I think that, combinated with more winterly sunshine, causes to make Tokyo much more happy than if it were located at, say Moscow.


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