# SHENZHEN | Megacity Extraordinaire



## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Shenzhen is a very interesting city. Possibly the most interesting that I have ever been to. Being just 30 years old it's one of China's top 4 'First Tier' cities along with Beijing, Shanghai and neighboring Guangzhou which despite having always been a bigger and more important urban center seems to be passing this position to Shenzhen which is becoming the giant and the main hub of the PRD. 

It did not exist before 1979 yet today it's one of the biggest cities in the world located in what seems to be world's largest urban area which is the PRD. Shenzhen is perhaps the fastest developing and growing city on the planet and being there feels like witnessing history in the making.

It's labelled as the most modern city in China and so for a reason. Shenzhen looks and feels very modern and futuristic with energy and ambition at every step you go. Despite that few outside Asia even heard of it (except those who have business or some knowledge of China of course). Shenzhen? What is that? Eh, just one of those mega-cities in China with 13+ million poeple, crazy mega structures and skyscrapers that make pretty much everything else look humble? This is Shenzhen of today. And we can only anticipate what is going to be Shenzhen of tomorrow which despite already being one of world's most impressive maga-cities remains perhaps the fastest developing city on the planet and will remain so for some years to come.

I love the energy and optimism there and I'll try to do my best to share it with the SSC community. 



Before starting with my pics I'll say a big thanks to the SSC forumer *Scion* for providing me with some very useful tips on what to see and where to go during my 6 days that I spent in SZ. All locations that I went to were recommended by him so cheers for that 



Here is a very rough map indicating areas that I went to. Those included OCT where I was staying, Danan Mountain, area around Poly Theatre and New Shenzhen Stadium, Futian CBD, Lianhuashan Park, Cuizhu Park, Luohu central area, area around Chegongmiao Station and the iconic Shenzhen North Railway station. I have quite a few pictures so it may take a while to post everything



I will stick to the chronological order of locations that I visited which is why there will be some jumping from place to place (and comebacks to previously visited areas) but this way will be easier for me and will give a better idea where actually and in what order I went to. So here we go, China's 21st century megacity from my perspective.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

My first urban trip in SZ was to Nanshan district where I took a long walk from around Houhai Station with some little detours to Danan Mountain and back

Heung Kong Tower construction seen from the vicinity of Houhai station. It's a 301m supertall nearing completion 


A rather vast area East from Houhaibin Road (to the left in the picture) is under construction. I'm not quite sure what exactly they are building there but seems to be pretty large-scale stuff including entire street grid, parks, residential, recreational and multi-use commercial objects






Just off the Houhaibin Road constructions are taking place. Some of the streets are completed but seemingly there is no through access to some areas. In this picture something what seems to be a canal


It's a weird feeling. Brand new streets and infrastructure and apart from the nearby construction works everything seems to be pretty much deserted. Just a lone guy with a camera (i.e. me) enjoying the +33C sunny weather. Thank god there was a shade in some places 




Time to have a... eh... 士力架


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## Xtreminal (Mar 8, 2008)

Really liked snickers shot


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Keyuan Avenue which for the time being goes to nowhere. You can see part of the Shenzhen Bay Sports Center. It's quite an architectural masterpiece to which I'll come back a little later


Empty pedestrian walks


Stuff being built. In Shenzhen it's easy to get used to seeing large construction sites. They are literally everywhere


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## Bristol Mike (Aug 5, 2007)

Not my type of city but fantastic shots. It certainly looks very green!


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## El_Greco (Apr 1, 2005)

Big, spacious and green. Just how it should be. Excellent photography, man. kay:


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## Nightsky (Sep 16, 2002)

Nice pics! Will be interesting to see! Will visit Shenzhen as part of a Hong Kong trip in december


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## christos-greece (Feb 19, 2008)

Indeed looking great and very nice


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Nightsky said:


> Nice pics! Will be interesting to see! Will visit Shenzhen as part of a Hong Kong trip in december


If you're into urban stuff and skyscrapers I can guarantee you'll love it. Keep in mind though that Shenzhen is not just something worth visiting as a part of visiting Hong Kong. Shenzhen is a _HUGE_ city even by Chinese standards and in order to do some decent sightseeing you need 3-4 days at the very least to see the main parts of the city. 



El_Greco said:


> Big, spacious and green. Just how it should be. Excellent photography, man. kay:


Thanks. Shenzhen is VERY green. Almost certainly the greenest city that I have ever been to. They've done a colossal job there with landscaping and plants. They seem not to save money on that because I have never seen a city with _that_ much greenery. Spome European cities (like Munich or Berlin) are typically associated with greenery but Shenzhen is just on a whole different level when it comes to green spaces and parks.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Continued from around the development area between Houhai station and Shenzhenwan Park. Pretty much all you can see around is new stuff being built








Heung Kong Tower


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Highrises in the Poly Theatre area







In this and other pictures it is very much evident that greenery and landscaping is taken very seriously in Shenzhen. I don't think I have been to a city that looks more green be it street level landscaping or open public parks. It really adds to the cosiness and friendliness of the urban environment


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Completed residential developments in the area


New residential developments and new landscaping


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Wonder why they named a chocolate bar after Shrek?


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Continued with walking in Houhai and Dengliang station area

A man cutting the lawn. There was a young guy with him (maybe his son?) doing the same thing. There were some construction workers having a lunch break nearby. Other than that there was hardly anyone in the vast area


This is a rather common view in many places in China: completed infrastructure and landscaping but still rather early stages of surrounding construction. It feels a little surreal to walk in places like this. There is noone there apart from workers who are mostly staying in the construction site surrounded by high fences. The streets are completely empty with just an occasional car passing by. There was nothing there a year ago and a year later it will probably be buzzing with people as if it always has been that way


Luxury apartments under construction near a canal and mini-park that have already been built nearby


New landscaping. I must say I was rather impressed. It looks and feels really nice and cosy


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Some of the already (but seemingly quite recently) completed residential quarters along *Zhongxin Road*. This is still part of the same vast construction area which was started a couple of years ago and measures at ~4x1.3km in dimensions. This is how construction sites can be measured in SZ. By kilometers 





Pedestrian walk along *Dongbin Road*. Notice the amount of greenery (also in the following photos)


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Houhaibin Road


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Streetside park on *Houhaibin Road*


*Gongye 8th Road*


*Haiyue Road*. Shenzhen as well as probably other cities in China are largely dominated by Le Corbusian style planning with highrise residential buildings. This is what we've already seen in the Soviet Union and large part of Europe which back in the days was the so-called 'Socialist Bloc'. One big difference seems to be that in Shenzhen such residential areas have rather vibrant and lively street life with countless shops and service outlets on the street level as seen on the right side of the picture. I really like that

IMG_0685 by jo.sau, on Flickr


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Haiyue Rd*. Sofas. 


Shops in Haiyue Road


Avril Lavigne promoting some cold tea (?) drink


Traffic at the intersection of *Dongbin Rd* and *Nanhai Avenue*


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

New residentials at the approach of Danan Mountain which I was walking to


Surrounding area and landscaping


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Next is Danan Mountain (大南山) which peaks at 336m above sea level. Doesn't sound like too high but keep in mind that it's actually right near the sea so the 336m in this case is the 'real' height. It's not the highest peak in SZ (the highest peak is at 960m which I didn't climb this time. Although I will do next time) but at temperatures of 30+ degrees C it's certainly a great exercise. Shenzhen has quite a few hills which are excellent for hiking and loosing those extra kgs 



There are at least three different routes to climb it. One of them is this road which I took. Thank god I bought 3 bottles of water and some isotonic drinks before starting to go up. It was really hot that day and I was sweating like I never had before 


Resident of the mountain


Next I will post some views that can be seen from Danan Mountain.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Chegongmiao Station*

Judging from bus traffic the place is an important bus traffic hub


East Pacific Center towers rising to 309 and 284 meters which now dominate the area


Shennan Avenue. This perhaps should be named as the 'main' and the longest continuous street of Shenzhen, a continuous street under several different names (Bao'An Avenue, Shennan Avenue, Xinxiu Road) which stretches to about 60km throughout the urban core and surrounding urban districts of Shenzhen. For large part it is parallel to Shenzhen Metro Luobao Line


Shennan Avenue. The dominant tower on the right side of the photo is the new building of Shenzhen Stock Exchange designed by Rem Koolhaas. Quite a marvel if you ask me


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Chegongmiao Station*

Green median of Shennan Avenue


Shenzhen Meteorological Tower. This must be the baddest meteo station ever 



Traffic on Shennan Avenue


That white-blue car on the top right is one of Shenzhen's several hundred all-electric taxis (BYD E6). BYD has also delivered 500 all-electric cars for Shenzhen police force. There are also some 200 all-electric public buses in Shenzhen. So I suppose it's fair to say that Shenzhen is a pioneering city in electric public transport vehicles. Let's hope this will soon become the mainstream


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Chegongmiao Station*

273m/896ft Neo Tower


Tunnel under the junction with G4 expressway




Pedestrian walk next to Shennan Avenue


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

It looks like Germany vs. Japan on tha streets of Shenzhen 



Bilingual road signs




Meanwhile on the pedestrian side


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## bozenBDJ (Jul 18, 2012)

Pansori said:


> Meanwhile on the pedestrian side


That sure is a lot of trees :lol: .


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

I think u know, shenzhen is the most beautiful city in the world. Amazing green, gardens, flowers, grass and trees. Unbelieveable skylines and the fatest speed grow up in the world. It is not about the old china, just about the new chinese. It will be famous in the future in the world, just need more time. Thanks you coming to shenzhen, I love shenzhen. It is the only city that I think better than western countries cities.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

^^
Many will disagree but from my point of view you are probably not very far from being right. 

Shenzhen planners seemingly tried very hard to make a modern, beautiful and green (VERY green indeed. Perhaps more green than any other big city) city. And they seem to be succeeding.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

A brief comeback to 'my' hood in SZ - OCT

Exit from Shennan Avenue to Qiaocheng East Road


Qiaocheng East Road. An example of rather typical Shenzhen planning with a wide avenue and spacious sidewalk surrounded by lots of greenery. Shenzhen despite being fairly densely urbanized in core urban districts is typically spacious on the street level with adequate spaces for pedestrians and car traffic. Overall from my personal experience Shenzhen is much better planned, organized and overall more pleasant to walk around in comparison to Shanghai or Guangzhou in which I spent comparable amounts of time. It is probably no surprising given that Shenzhen is essentially built from scratch over the last 30 years which means that planners had more freedom to do what they had to do


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Cars waiting at a red signal on Qiaocheng East Rd.


Some pretty exclusive stuff here


OCT LOFT pedestrian area with restaurants, cafes and art galleries. It's pretty quiet during the daytime but gets busy in the evening when all the 'trendy' and 'cool' types come with their BMWs and Audis to spend the evening in what seems to have become one of the coolest places to be at in SZ. Mind you it was a factory zone a decade ago. It still looks like it because most of the factory buildings seem to have remained intact and even facades seem to have been untouched for the most part. I love the idea and give my respect to whoever initiated this development. Must be one of the finest conversion projects ever. The area feels really pleasant and cosy with some of that artsy bohemian touch. It feels weird that something like this has become one of THE places in a city that was started as an industrial zone... 30 years ago. Simply beautiful


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Evening time in OCT. Traffic gets really heavy on the narrow streets and people start flocking in from all directions


Sexy men on the right 


Decaying facade of a former factory building. I love how the conversion of industrial buildings has been done without visual interference into the outside appearance of the buildings. It creates an impression of neglect and grit while at the same time you know that this is in fact one of the most hi-end and expensive locations in town


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## bozenBDJ (Jul 18, 2012)

Pansori said:


> Decaying facade of a former factory building. I love how the conversion of industrial buildings has been done without visual interference into the outside appearance of the buildings. It creates an impression of neglect and grit while at the same time you know that this is in fact one of the most hi-end and expensive locations in town


Looks like a typical building in my city :lol: .


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

U know, it is so different from shanghai and beijing. It is not look like so 'chinese', I think it is the only city can show how is the new china. Now I live in sydney, I have been to china all big cities and US big cities, but I think shenzhen is the best. Please come again in 2015 or 2016. The new airport open in later this in shenzhen, the shape is amazing and so beautiful. Next year a new biggest and best shopping mall called' shenzhen center ' will open in futian cbd. In 2015 or 2016, u can see the finish futian cbd, the Ping An IFC will be the second tallest building in the world. And Qianhai water city develop is start this year. Come again after 2 years or 3 years, u will see a new shenzhen, lol !


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

^^
Actually I'll come again next year. And year after.


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

We have talked in flickr, waiting for your new photos. Thanks a lot.


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## bozenBDJ (Jul 18, 2012)

And i'll come too (if i have enough money) in 2018 or 2019  .


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## Puppetgeneral (Jul 9, 2013)

Good, just good. I can't say anything.


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## Joseph Gomes (Jul 31, 2013)

blakexu said:


> I think u know, shenzhen is the most beautiful city in the world. Amazing green, gardens, flowers, grass and trees. Unbelieveable skylines and the fatest speed grow up in the world. It is not about the old china, just about the new chinese. It will be famous in the future in the world, just need more time. Thanks you coming to shenzhen, I love shenzhen. It is the only city that I think better than western countries cities.


I'm not a Chinese, but I've been to many large cities around the world. And I also believe Shenzhen will become the most beautiful city in the world within a decade, when all the building construction will be over. It will have the largest skyline in the world with the greenest cityscape. True urban paradise :cheers:


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## fidoyeah (Apr 24, 2011)

Welcome to SZ again in the future. I moved from San Francisco->Beijing->Shenzhen, where I grew up. It is indeed the most beautiful city in China IMO.

Here is a pic to show u the night view from Wutong Mountain(an awesome place to visit if u like taking shots like the one below).












Pansori said:


> ^^
> Actually I'll come again next year. And year after.


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

fidoyeah said:


> Welcome to SZ again in the future. I moved from San Francisco->Beijing->Shenzhen, where I grew up. It is indeed the most beautiful city in China IMO.
> 
> Here is a pic to show u the night view from Wutong Mountain(an awesome place to visit if u like taking shots like the one below).


 
amazing city
it is s miracle in the earth


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

Joseph Gomes said:


> I'm not a Chinese, but I've been to many large cities around the world. And I also believe Shenzhen will become the most beautiful city in the world within a decade, when all the building construction will be over. It will have the largest skyline in the world with the greenest cityscape. True urban paradise :cheers:


 
yep, now it is not so famous for people, I wish it will be famous in the world in nexr 20 years


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

I will continue with some mixed street level views starting with area around *Cuizhu Park* then briefly back to *OCT* and a few attempts to take some pictures in *Futian CBD* which I had to eventually cancel because of the rain

Cuizhu Road with shopfronts on the street level. This is rather common layout of Shenzhen's street level


New fairly expensive cars with no number plates also seem to be a common sight (although not nearly as much as in Shanghai). It could be one of those 'Only in China' things. 
I really wonder what is the exact reason for that? The guy who spent so much money on a car (which costs more than 2x of the typical European price due to extortionate Chinese taxes on luxury cars) cannot afford to get a registration? Or is he waiting in a queue?


Cuizhu Road


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*OCT*

*Qiaocheng East Street* near *OCT*. Once again some typical Shenzhen street level planning here with lots of space and greenery


Art @OCT LOFT








I'll be back to OCT once again a little later


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD*

That very same evening I decided to go out to Futian CBD to try take some night pictures


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD*

Civic Square which is a big open space next to the Civic Center




It was raining and the only reasonable location seemed to be under the roof of the Civic Center. Despite the rain and lack of specific activities in the area at that time of day there seemed to be quite many people around doing all kinds of activities from dancing to simply urban picnics with food and drink


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

I like futian cbd very much. I think when u drive in the shennan avenue, across the middle of futian cbd, a huge grass space, u know that. U can not use words to explain that feeling.


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## bozenBDJ (Jul 18, 2012)

Pansori said:


> I will continue with some mixed street level views starting with area around *Cuizhu Park* then briefly back to *OCT* and a few attempts to take some pictures in *Futian CBD* which I had to eventually cancel because of the rain
> 
> Cuizhu Road with shopfronts on the street level. This is rather common layout of Shenzhen's street level


Almost like Indonesia again (minus the apartments , Chinese licenseplates and characters , and wide sidewalks) :lol: .


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

bozenBDJ said:


> Almost like Indonesia again (minus the apartments , Chinese licenseplates and characters , and wide sidewalks) :lol: .


 U should go to shenzhen then talk about this, very different.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD and Lianhuashan Park*

The following day I decided to go back to Futian CBD which is now the 'center' of Shenzhen (it kinda fits this definition from a geographical point of view as well). In reality, however it's not the same as the downtown or city center in American or European sense. 

Originally the 'center' of Shenzhen was (and you can say still is) in *Luohu* district, about 6km to the East. It was where Shenzhen started developing and where the original city center is today.

*Futian* could be called the 'new Center' or 'new CBD'. There are countless new skyscrapers and other big stuff going up on a massive scale.

To make it more complex Shenzhen is developing another 'new center' (Qianhai Water City) about 16km to the West and planning yet another one near Shenzhen North Station which is 9km to the North. So there are quite a few CBDs and 'city centers' to choose from. If not right now then surely in the future. It is a multi-core city in its real meaning. This, however, to differing extents can be said about some other cities across Asia including Tokyo, Bangkok, Shanghai and perhaps a number of others. The European definition of 'city center' pretty much looses its purpose and sense here


*Fuhua Road* near the Exhibition and Convention Center. You can see the crane which is building the 660m Ping An Center which will become China's tallest skyscraper


*Fuhua 1st Road* which is not the same as the road in the previous picture but parallel to it one block apart


Entrance to the park which is between Fuhua 1st Road and Shennan Avenue. I don't know what's the name of the park (it doesn't have one maybe)


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD and Lianhuashan Park*

More views around the area. Futian CBD is largely built (visually at least) but there are many more constructions of skyscrapers and infrastructure taking place. It will take another few years for everything to be complete


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD and Lianhuashan Park*

I know I know... China is no different 



Pedestrian walk along *Jintian Road* flyover wich crosses Shennan Avenue


Shenzhen Stock Exchange Plaza designed by Rem Koolhaas and rising to 246 meters and 51 floors. It's one of the more interesting and unique new skyscrapers


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD and Lianhuashan Park*

Part of the Civic Square in the front of the *Civic Center* is made into a park...


...some of which looks like an attempt to make a 'fake' swamp . What a creative idea. I was to the same place in the night and all you hear around is some animals (I would guess frogs or toads) making funny quacking and creaking sounds. It feels a little surreal once you remember that this is actually the central point of the CBD surrounded by skyscrapers


Highrises seen from the Civic Square. Ping An Center is rising there too


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD and Lianhuashan Park*

Lianhuashan Park which is yet another pretty large (a bit smaller in area than London Hyde Park) urban park incorporating a big hill. It has a statue of Deng Xiaoping on the top (it's actually visible in the photo). A man who initiated the reform policy where Shenzhen was the forefront runner. There surely is a good reason for this man to be respected in China and especially in Shenzhen


People enjoying a day out


Spot two supertalls here 


They're right here: KK100 and Shun Hing Square


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## cuartango (Apr 22, 2009)

Is there any pedestrian commercial area in Shenzen? In that case, do you have any pictures of it?


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

Shenzhen seems quite nice but world's most beautiful city is quite a ridiculous claim, maybe in the future it will be a world class city. Certain areas look nice but the majority of the city is filled with ugly apartment blocks


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## lmpaul (Sep 26, 2010)

Pansori said:


> I know I know... China is no different


which are you referring to? the pink dressed lady? the car accident? or the guy on the background? :lol:


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## Taipei Walker (Mar 7, 2005)

cuartango said:


> Is there any pedestrian commercial area in Shenzen? In that case, do you have any pictures of it?


one of such areas is Dongmen in Luohu, Shenzhen's "old town"


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

lmpaul said:


> which are you referring to? the pink dressed lady? the car accident? or the guy on the background? :lol:


The lady is the driver of the car.


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## El_Greco (Apr 1, 2005)

Did you offer to help her?


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

009 said:


> Shenzhen seems quite nice but world's most beautiful city is quite a ridiculous claim, maybe in the future it will be a world class city. Certain areas look nice but the majority of the city is filled with ugly apartment blocks


Beauty is a subjective term. Is Singapore more beautiful than Paris? Yes and no depending on who you are and what you like. 

There are some rather objective terms though. That would include public spaces, greenery and landscaping, public transport, architecture quality and many other things that make a city 'good'... or 'beautiful' as some might call it. In this respect Shenzhen is indeed already one of the best cities in the world. There is no other big city which has done nearly as much for landscaping and greenery, for instance. That is important for a city.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

El_Greco said:


> Did you offer to help her?


How do you think I could have helped her?


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Oh of course I saw the site. I just didn't know what it was. All you see from the street level is just the fence and some cranes. 
Too bad I'll be there earlier than December. It looks amazing in those visuals.


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## williamhou2005 (Oct 21, 2006)

Pansori said:


> Oh of course I saw the site. I just didn't know what it was. All you see from the street level is just the fence and some cranes.
> Too bad I'll be there earlier than December. It looks amazing in those visuals.


^^ There is a thread for the supertall in that project

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1505398


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD*

Back to the street level in Futian. Lianhuashan Park might not be the best spot for excellent skyline views (not that it's bad... It's actually great. It's just that there are better locations for that) but it is very close to the core urban areas and it's a great example of a well designed green urban oasis right in the heart of a megacity

*Jintian Road* near Lianhuashan Park and *Children's Palace*


Back to the interesting low-rise structure which I mentioned before. Shenzhen Cultural Center which includes *Shenzhen Library* and *Shenzhen Concert Hall*. Designed by the renowned Japanese architect Arata Isozaki. It is a very interesting and very unique design. Probably one of the best pieces of lowrise architecture in Shenzhen (along with the stunning T3 of Shenzhen Airport and the Shenzhen Bay stadium). Especially the glass roof structure (not just from the outside but from inside too)


Inside


Surrounding area (Fuzhong 1st Road)


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Futian CBD*

Next to *Shenzhen Cultural Center* with *Civic Center* in sight. The entire vast surrounding area around all those objects (Civic Center, Cultural Center, Children's palace) is an open pedestrian public space. Additional pedestrian path is built on an elevated bridge which I walked before to Lianhuashan park


Shenzhen Cultural Center once again




Look at the facial expressions of those two guys


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## El_Greco (Apr 1, 2005)

Theres truly an epic amount of greenery in Shenzhen! Out of curiousity can you sit down in one of those parks with a beer?


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

El_Greco said:


> Theres truly an epic amount of greenery in Shenzhen! Out of curiousity can you sit down in one of those parks with a beer?


Sure you can. I'm not sure about the exact legal status of that but from my personal perception Chinese cities seem to be drinking-friendly. Only that in this weather (30-35C during summer) I barely wanted anything else than water or cold green tea. Beer was only for the late evening. Shenzhen, unlike some other cities has very lush greenery which looks like a jungle where you can 'disappear' without a chance of ever being seen. In many places you can do much more than just drinking beer without attracting too much attention. :lol:


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## El_Greco (Apr 1, 2005)

Lol.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Night walk along Shenzhen Bay*

The next installment is a short night walk from OCT LOFT to the seashore where *Shenzhen Hongshulin Ecological Park* is located. It is a waterfront park that is part of what is a continuous 9km seaside parkland area along Shenzhen Bay. It is really amazing how much attention Shenzhen is paying to urban parks and recreational areas. I totally love it. Few of those who have not been to Shenzhen realize that it is not just about countless highrise apartments and wide avenues. Shenzhen, among other things, is about greenery, parks, parks and even more parks and greenery. Day and night.

I went there late in the evening (around 21.00 hours) and the place was buzzing with people. It is not a primary panoramic spot but you can see some interesting views of Shenzhen and Hong Kong which is on the opposite side of the *Deep Bay*

*Hong Kong* seen from the pedestrian pathway along Shenzhen Bay waterfront


Apartment towers (Shenzhen)


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Night walk*

New luxury apartments U/C




The park


Art gallery near Shennan Avenue


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*OCT-LOFT*

One more glimpse at Shenzhen's arts quarter OCT-LOFT where factory buildings from the 80's were converted into art galleries and workshops, restaurants, hotels and apartments. It could be called Shenzhen's equivalent of Shanghai's M50. It seems to be one of the most desirable and probably one of the more expensive locations in Shenzhen

Restaurant 




Art shops


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*OCT-LOFT*

Great name for a... furniture shop


No comments


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*OCT-LOFT*

Art shop


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*OCT-LOFT*

The area has a very romantic and cozy post-industrial feeling to it surrounded by lush greenery. Certainly one of the most successful and funkiest urban projects in Shenzhen


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*OCT-LOFT*



Red pipe




Place to sit down and have a rest surrounded by decaying concrete


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Original Shenzhen*

The following set of photos is from Luohu around the original city center of Shenzhen. It feels somewhat different from Futian CBD or Houhai in Nanshan. This is what could be called the _old town_ of Shenzhen which is... 30 years old (although most buildings are probably younger than that). Although in Shenzhen years it should add at least one more 0 which makes it something like 300 years old. Not too bad. 


The 'standard' view of *Shennan East Road* near *Shun Hing Square*. This has been the showcase view of modern Shenzhen for many years (maybe 15 or so) 


KK100. The tallest (442m) and the baddest skyscraper in Shenzhen for the time being (until Ping An gets built). Very beautiful skyscraper, imo. Designed by Terry Farrell and Partners


A pretty girl crossing the street. I DO NOT have any idea what she was carrying in her mought and it most certainly did not have anything to do with me in case anyone wondered :|


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Original Shenzhen*

It is compulsory to pay a tribute to what used to be the main landmark of Shenzhen: Shun Hing Square. 325 meters tall (or even 384 if you inculde those 'spires') and still going strong in the skyline views. It has to be said this is not the most tasteful or elegant skyscraper design (albeit, not the worst either) but this is history and it shall be honored. There is also an observation deck at one of the top floors


*Shennan East Road* again


Close-up


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Original Shenzhen*

The old *Shenzhen Stock Exchange* building. The new building has been build in Futian CBD 




BK. I could not resist. Whopper was as great as ever 


German merchandise doing well in China


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Original Shenzhen*

Public plaza and entrance to underground pedestrian crossing




Hospital on Bao'an South Road


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Original Shenzhen*

Pedestrian pavement on Bao'an South Road


I tried to photograph some aspects of driving in Shenzhen (and Chinese cities in general, I suppose). In words it could be described as following: the car on the left does an 'U' turn at the intersection. It starts maneuvering because there is no space for a 'U' turn. The car to the right from it is honking like there is no tomorrow. The second car to the right is also honking like mad...


...meanwhile the car from the left approaches and starts honking. Meanwhile [2] the second car starts doing a 'U' turn (white Ford Focus). By that time all cars in the photo (except the two doing the 'U' turn) are honking non-stop. Why? Just WHY on fu**ing planet earth they ever do that (both turning and honking)? Not that I'm trying to bash or criticize anything or anyone but I'm just curious. Why, just WHY? 

IMG_1623 by jo.sau, on Flickr

Nearby there is a bridge over Shenzhen River. It seems like the river is undergoing a clean-up process. It is a good idea because until now it looked (and still does look if you peek over that fence) filthy. I read about a number of different proposals of the cleanup but not sure which one has been chosen

IMG_1625 by jo.sau, on Flickr


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## Maikl V (Aug 30, 2013)




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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Poly Theater, Coastal City*

Continued from Coastal City area

Pedestrian spaces near water


Someone else was taking photos too


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Poly Theater, Coastal City*

Indian Restaurant


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Poly Theater. Coastal City*

A large elevated pedestrian plaza facing Houhaibin Road and providing a fairly nice view of the surrounding area and the street. There are lots of poeple just hanging out and enjoying a lovely evening




A 'tunnel'. It looks really nice when lit up in the dark


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## El_Greco (Apr 1, 2005)

I must say that Shenzhen never really interested me that much and I always thought that Guangzhou is the main place to see in the region (not including Hong Kong). However this thread had made me change my mind. There's lots to see in Shenzhen. It's not one of those generic, boom towns of China, it seems to have been put together with great care and attention. A very unique and attractive city.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Poly Theater. Coastal City*

*Wenxin 6th Road* below the pedestrian area


The place is very busy in the evening (7-9p.m.). There are lots of restaurants and simply nice places to hang out 


Opposite side of the complex. Another long pond with decorative lighting and, most importantly, skyscrapers lining the all-pedestrian area. A really well implemented urban idea with almost complete separation of car traffic and pedestrian areas where applicable. Not sure if there are many other large-scale developments in China at this time which could boast having something at this qualitative level. Perhaps Guangzhou's Zhujiang New City


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

El_Greco said:


> I must say that Shenzhen never really interested me that much and I always thought that Guangzhou is the main place to see in the region (not inducing Hong Kong). However this thread had made me change my mind. There's lots to see in Shenzhen. It's not one of those generic, boom towns of China, it seems to have been put together with great care and attention. A very attractive city.


It's true that Guangzhou has always been the 'main' city in that region. It's always been much bigger. It only changed perhaps a few years ago. It's all to do with the astonishing pace at which Shenzhen has been developing. By now it's probably got a population of 15+ million which pretty much makes it bigger than any city outside Asia. It's not an ordinary boomtown anymore but a megacity in its own right. From an urban perspective at least, I think there is more to be seen in Shenzhen than in Hong Kong or Guangzhou these days. There are so many exciting and beautiful things happening there.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Poly Theater. Coastal City*

The last pictures from the Coastal City area. It is especially beautiful at night with lots of elegant decorative lighting, water and plenty of space to chill out 





Kempinski Hotel


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

it is so amazing that u took the photo of Coastal City, u know in my opinion, futian cbd is the best cbd in the world, maybe u can come back later and later, in 2016 it will be most finish, u will know why I say that haha.


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## williamhou2005 (Oct 21, 2006)

blakexu said:


> it is so amazing that u took the photo of Coastal City, u know in my opinion, futian cbd is the best cbd in the world, maybe u can come back later and later, in 2016 it will be most finish, u will know why I say that haha.



You should try to use more modest language sometimes, many if not most people would not agree with that. Instead of saying "best", tell people how good it is.


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## Joseph Gomes (Jul 31, 2013)

williamhou2005 said:


> You should try to use more modest language sometimes, many if not most people would not agree with that. Instead of saying "best", tell people how good it is.


I think he was referring to this 










Futian is certainly on its way to claim one of best CBD skyline in the world


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

For the moment, in my opinion, Futian does not look nearly as good either on the street level or in the skyline as Guangzhou Zhujiang New Town. But I guess we'll have to wait a couple more years to make final conclusions. Regarding Shenzhen I am much more looking forward to Qianhai.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Shenzhen Bay Sports center*

The last part of that evening's walk was around Shenzhen Bay Sports Center. It is just 700m away from the previous location but getting there wasn't very easy. The streets that normally should have direct access to the area were closed with construction site fencing and the entire area seemed closed off for public due to massive construction work. So I had to wander around through some bushes and temporary pathways

*Kapok Hotel* designed by Goettsch Partners, Inc. A new hotel adjacent to the sports center. All of this is part of the wider *Shenzhen Bay* Development which can also be seen in the first page of this thread. Nearby areas (not part of the same development) are also largely under development or complete very recently (including those highrtise apartments seen in a distance)




Walking around the sports center. Impressive architecture and engineering solutions


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Shenzhen Bay Sports Center*

Views to the nearby areas from the Sports Center. The entire sports center (which is in fact a stadium with some ajecent facilities) is surrounded by elevated pedestrian platform which is vast and provides good viewing positions for the nearby areas giving a decent vantage point




That roof construction is pretty epic


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Shenzhen Bay Sports Center*

You can't see it in the pictures because they're all taken using long exposure setting (up to 30 sec.) but the main pedestrian public plaza near the Sports Center was very busy despite it being quite late in the evening (around 22.00 hours). People are engaging in all kinds of activities from dancing (yes, dancing) to simply chilling out and drinking or eating. Perhaps not surprising given that it is a rather exceptionally nice modern area with lots of open public space available for anyone to enjoy. Shenzhen as a whole is a very spacious city with lots of large open public spaces (open plazas, parks, waterfronts etc.). It's never a problem to find a nice place to chill out in the evening. The feeling of safety adds to it too. I suppose this is one aspect common to all cities in China - it just feels safe. Very safe. Sure there are crimes like pickpocketing in some areas (especially busy places) but overall I only ever felt safer in Singapore of all places that I have been to


Apartment buildings some distance away


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

*Shenzhen Bay Sports Center*

Basketball courts. I have noticed that there are good basketball facilities all over the city near any major residential block. Basketball is surely popular in China. However I wonder what's the situation right now? I mean when Yao Ming has retired? From what I understand China's national team hasn't been shining too brightly in the recent years. Just how is that affecting people's view to basketball? Is there still a view that China can be a major player in international basketball? There sure is potential given the number of poeple in China and facilities that already exist


Pedestrian bridge crossing *Binhai Avenue* and leading from the Sports Center to the nearby residential area


Last shot from a metro train. Some (newer ones) trains have LCD displays above every door showing route and station information


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## williamhou2005 (Oct 21, 2006)

Joseph Gomes said:


> I think he was referring to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...










Even in this picture after all these buildings completed in the next few years, this does not look nearly as good as Newyork or Shanghai or Guangzhou's CBD. Futian CBD lacks density and height in comparison (a good thing for people working there actually, as Shenzhen is very well planned, but not for the skyline)

However, Shenzhen's strength is not in Futian. Its economy is shifting from Futian CBD towards the West, the waterfront (Houhai for now and in the longer term, Qianhai). 

Additionally there are several clusters of smaller business centers forming all along Shennan Rd. (Shenzhen's most important avenue), each going to have their own skyline including a number of 300m+ being the area's landmark. It's all these together that will make a very large and impressive skyline in the next few years, that is among the very best.


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## williamhou2005 (Oct 21, 2006)

Pansori said:


> For the moment, in my opinion, Futian does not look nearly as good either on the street level or in the skyline as Guangzhou Zhujiang New Town. But I guess we'll have to wait a couple more years to make final conclusions. Regarding Shenzhen I am much more looking forward to Qianhai.




IMHO Futian looks disappointing for Shenzhen. Height and floor area ratio restrictions had been quite strict from the beginning on the drawing board. 

Qianhai is a bit far away, Houhai and the High-tech Industrial Park, both in Nanshan district, looks very promising to watch in the near term.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

^^
I think when defining a 'best' CBD we should not only talk of skyline but street level too. This is, in fact, the most important aspect of it.

Take Shanghai Pudong for instance. It is arguably the best looking skyline in China but as soon as you actually step on the ground you realize that there simply can be no comparison with Guangzhou CBD. Or even Futian (which also falls below Guangzhou in that measure). 

Like I said, for the time being I see no close rival for Guangzhou's Zhujiang New Town. Even if not for skyline (although it is rather striking, especially from some angles) then for street level it wins against anything hands down.


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

Joseph Gomes said:


> I think he was referring to this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
yep, when people see that in 2016, they will agree me..-_-


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## bozenBDJ (Jul 18, 2012)

Why the skyline related talking? :?


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## skyridgeline (Dec 7, 2008)

skymantle said:


> Shenzhen's infrastructure and sheer size and vision is mind-boggling. In such a short amount of time to create such a megalopolis only the Chinese can do.
> 
> But it seriously lacks character and a sense of community. It's not 'human-scale' and inviting. No beauty either, a Le Corbusier nightmare come true some have called it. I hate to think that these are the cities we will all inherit in the not-too-distant future. These cities may 'work' for heavily populated Asia and their mentality but most Westerners will find them very hard to warm too. As a tourist they're interesting, even amazing, but to live in is another story...a horror story.



Hong kong Island's urban jungle ( you are warned Pansori :lol: ):


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

Pansori said:


> I cannot disagree more. Every single statement you made here is simply not true. At least judging from my personal experience which by now is not that insignificant. :cheers:
> 
> Oh yes, and I say that as someone who has actually lived in both worlds.


 I think you are looking at the place through 'rose-tinted foreign glasses'. 

Shenzhen is a Le Corbusier inspired city, a misplaced vision. 

http://youtu.be/8lyZzou4mDM?t=21m


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## christos-greece (Feb 19, 2008)

Great, very nice new photos from Shenzhen; well done


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

skymantle said:


> I think you are looking at the place through 'rose-tinted foreign glasses'.
> 
> Shenzhen is a Le Corbusier inspired city, a misplaced vision.
> 
> http://youtu.be/8lyZzou4mDM?t=21m


You should think again perhaps. As someone who was born and lived in a Le Corbusian urban environment (which was, in fact, much closer to the original Le Corbusian idea than Shenzhen is) for at least the first 20 years of my life I'm pretty confident I know what I'm saying and how I see the place. Your statements are completely contradictory to my experience in every aspect and in every step I went there. Although they might be true in some places. Perhaps in Pyongyang? 

It does help to spend time in different, opposing, urban environments based upon contradicting urban planning ideologies in which I have lived. That helps to build a more comprehensive (as opposed to rose-tinted) and less complacent understanding of what I see, how it works and why. I tend to stick to the scientific method when I evaluate such things. Which is why I don't buy or care of arguments like 'horror'. You need to explain the details, show the proof which I and others can test later and give an evaluation. Anything else is a waste of my time and perhaps something that could not be ruled out as trolling.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

For those who couldn't waste time on checking the whole thread I set a quick video slideshow with some of the photos (not all)


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## skyridgeline (Dec 7, 2008)

skymantle said:


> Shenzhen's infrastructure and sheer size and vision is mind-boggling. In such a short amount of time to create such a megalopolis only the Chinese can do.
> 
> *But it seriously lacks character and a sense of community. It's not 'human-scale' and inviting. No beauty either*, a Le Corbusier nightmare come true some have called it. I hate to think that these are the cities we will all inherit in the not-too-distant future. These cities may 'work' for heavily populated Asia and their mentality but most Westerners will find them very hard to warm too. As a tourist they're interesting, even amazing, but to live in is another story...a horror story.





skymantle said:


> I think you are looking at the place through 'rose-tinted foreign glasses'.
> 
> Shenzhen is a Le Corbusier inspired city, *a misplaced vision*.
> 
> http://youtu.be/8lyZzou4mDM?t=21m



Shenzhen is a HK 'inspired' city with more buildable lands. Like HK, there are actually quite a few real 'villages' and natural spaces in Shenzhen. 

You know Shenzhen (new/modern) is about 30 year old? And what is your ideal city/urban space?


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

Pansori said:


> You should think again perhaps. As someone who was born and lived in a Le Corbusian urban environment (which was, in fact, much closer to the original Le Corbusian idea than Shenzhen is) for at least the first 20 years of my life I'm pretty confident I know what I'm saying and how I see the place. Your statements are completely contradictory to my experience in every aspect and in every step I went there. Although they might be true in some places. Perhaps in Pyongyang?
> 
> It does help to spend time in different, opposing, urban environments based upon contradicting urban planning ideologies in which I have lived. That helps to build a more comprehensive (as opposed to rose-tinted) and less complacent understanding of what I see, how it works and why. I tend to stick to the scientific method when I evaluate such things. Which is why I don't buy or care of arguments like 'horror'. You need to explain the details, show the proof which I and others can test later and give an evaluation. Anything else is a waste of my time and perhaps something that could not be ruled out as trolling.


 Firstly Pansori, I'd like to say that you present an interesting thread with great pictures. Now if someone disagrees with your view of a place try not to be so defensive.

As far as evidence is concerned, well your lovely slide-show clearly illustrates the Le Corbusier inspired city that Shenzhen is, and the video I uploaded outlined the failures of Le Corbusier's vision. I can post more evidence to support this argument if you like? 



skyridgeline said:


> Shenzhen is a HK 'inspired' city with more buildable lands. Like HK, there are actually quite a few real 'villages' and natural spaces in Shenzhen.
> 
> You know Shenzhen (new/modern) is about 30 year old? And what is your ideal city/urban space?


 You know in the west when urban planners and architects say a certain part of a city is akin to Hong Kong they mean the most densely packed, non-human-scale and unpleasant part of it. It's not flattering.

As far as ideal city/urban space is concerned, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Urbanism"]New Urbanism[/URL] pedestrian-friendly type cities are the way to go, places like Copenhagen etc.

Shenzhen may be all shiny, new and exciting now, and it may even be right for heavily populated China, but for the West and even for very affluent Chinese who model their communities on New Urbanism models, Shenzhen is no ideal city.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

skymantle said:


> Firstly Pansori, I'd like to say that you present an interesting thread with great pictures. Now if someone disagrees with your view of a place try not to be so defensive.


I am not being defensive. I just don't like people rushing in, posting a few random words like 'horror' or 'terrible' and then presenting it as an opinion (read, an equal statement of what has been said in a comprehensive, and to my best effort, informative presentation based not just upon this particular instance of visiting a city but also many years of living and traveling all over the world and exploring precisely that - urban environments). Now maybe you do have a fair point somewhere (I do have some less positive points on Shenzhen when it comes to some aspects of planning too. Or at least some individual cases of planning practices) but you limited yourself to mere expressions. Your alleged 'evidence' which is that video doesn't really impress. Certainly not when we deal with Shenzhen. Maybe it could be applied to 1960's practices of some cases of European urban planning? Who cares anyway. So it's not about _what_ your opinion is but rather _how_ you present it. 



> As far as evidence is concerned, well your lovely slide-show clearly illustrates the Le Corbusier inspired city that Shenzhen is, and the video I uploaded outlined the failures of Le Corbusier's vision. I can post more evidence to support this argument if you like?


Of course Shenzhen (as well as Singapore, Hong Kong, pretty much all other Chinese city re-developments and many other places worldwide) is largely inspired by Le Corbusian urban ideology. And that is not a bad thing. In fact it is a good thing and it is proven to work very well and in the most efficient manner as more than clearly proven in cities like Hong Kong and especially Singapore... AND Shenzhen itself if you like. 

You, on the other hand, drop some video which deals with some supposed failures of one planning and design ideology (or perhaps just wrong implementations of it) with some designs from the 1960's and then point to 21st century city in China and claim it to be a valid piece 'evidence' of supposed failures of urbanism there. You do realize how utterly unclever that sounds?





> You know in the west when urban planners and architects say a certain part of a city is akin to Hong Kong they mean the most densely packed, non-human-scale and unpleasant part of it. It's not flattering.


There is some truth in that. Hong Kong is extremely dense in built up areas. Far more dense than Shenzhen. What is funny though is that those so-called 'new urbanism' advocates claim that Shenzhen is too sparsely built up (i.e. it should be more dense ). It really does look like a comedy show when you start listening to those guys. Do they have _any_ clue what they are talking about? Have any of those who say that (I mean urban planners) actually been to Hong Kong? Shenzhen? Judging from such ridiculous claims they probably have not. Many of the 'new urbanism' ideologists are merely instruments for developers to push for the cheapest and most profitable solution. Public is in no way a beneficiary of that. Although mind you it's not all urban planners 'in the West' (where? US? UK? France? Germany? Poland? Russia?) have such views which makes such an argument even less credible.



> As far as ideal city/urban space is concerned, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Urbanism"]New Urbanism[/URL] pedestrian-friendly type cities are the way to go, places like Copenhagen etc.


Omg...LOL. I can hardly say anything more than just laugh. 

How on the bloody planet earth are you going to put 20 million people into a Copenhagen style town with 1-2 storey housing? Can you imagine how would that look like in practice? It would probably be worse than Mao's great leap forward with relevant consequences. I mean how would even food supply trucks would bring all those goods to supermarkets on those little streets in a 20 million city? How long would it take? Like a week? I mean Jesus, how can anyone even think of such an idea? Again you DO realise that this is beyond sanity to even think about that when it comes to mega-cities in China, right?

Hell, I'd like all cities to be like Heidelberg or some pretty village somewhere in the Swiss Alps. What we have to understand here, however, is that we're not talking of little villages but cities well in excess of 10 (sometimes 15) million in population. In that urban region alone which is less than the size of Belgium we have something like 50 million people. This is a different scale from anything that the new urbanism people have even dreamt of and it is no game when you deal with such numbers of people and their well-being. Which is why the 'new urbanism' playground doesn't work here. Just like horse-drawn carriages don't work on hi-speed railways no matter how romantic and 'human' it would look compared to a metal tube going at 350km/h.

We should be rational when it comes to that. Especially when we're talking of such numbers of people in very compact areas.



> Shenzhen may be all shiny, new and exciting now, and it may even be right for heavily populated China, but for the West and even for very affluent Chinese who model their communities on New Urbanism models, Shenzhen is no ideal city.


Why is it relevant how it would work for the West? China is not the West and never will be. Different population densities, different cultures and different perception of housing. Why does you 'good' have to be everyone else's 'goog'? The 'just because it is' argument doesn't work here.

As for rich Chinese... well, there are some who like their cars  gold-plated too. It is true that good taste may not necessarily be the mainstream among even the richest in China yet. You can't just buy that as opposed to a house or a golden car. Give it some time and it will go just like the desire to build European small town style housing (there are quite a few of such towns in China btw. Many seem to be uninhabited are mainly used as photoshoot locations for weddings).


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## skyridgeline (Dec 7, 2008)

skymantle said:


> ...
> 
> You know in the west when urban planners and architects say a certain part of a city is akin to Hong Kong they mean the most densely packed, non-human-scale and unpleasant part of it. *It's not flattering*.
> 
> ...


432 Park Avenue?

Can I walk to the suburbs in the 'West'?


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

Pansori I understand where you're coming from and I don't meean to be objectionable about Schenzen. China can be proud of its achievements. People have a higher standard of living now. I just hate to see them lose their buikding heritage to megacities. I would prefer that we all retained something of our traditional cities and not regret it later as a grave mistake, because this has happened alreasdy and we have the opportunity to learn from the past.

Please keep posting more of your excellent photos. This is certainly one of the most befitting threads here. Truly kickass skyscrapercity.


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## williamhou2005 (Oct 21, 2006)

skymantle said:


> Pansori I understand where you're coming from and I don't meean to be objectionable about Schenzen. China can be proud of its achievements. People have a higher standard of living now. I just hate to see them lose their buikding heritage to megacities. I would prefer that we all retained something of our traditional cities and not regret it later as a grave mistake, because this has happened alreasdy and we have the opportunity to learn from the past.
> 
> Please keep posting more of your excellent photos. This is certainly one of the most befitting threads here. Truly kickass skyscrapercity.




You are right for most cities, not all cities should be the same and tradition should be respected. The thing is...Shenzhen is unique in that unlike almost any other cities in China or in the world, it started from blank 30 years ago. 

There is no tradition. There is no local heritage to be lost. The population is completely mixed, from all over the country, therefore the cuisine is also mixed and modern. 

Like the United States started as an immigration country, this city started its history as an immigration city, and it is making its own history.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

williamhou2005 said:


> You are right for most cities, not all cities should be the same and tradition should be respected. The thing is...Shenzhen is unique in that unlike almost any other cities in China or in the world, it started from blank 30 years ago.
> 
> There is no tradition. There is no local heritage to be lost. The population is completely mixed, from all over the country, therefore the cuisine is also mixed and modern.
> 
> Like the United States started as an immigration country, this city started its history as an immigration city, and it is making its own history.


True said. There isn't anything to be lost there. What is more, believe it or not but Shenzhen is already establishing what could cautiously be called as industrial architectural-urban heritage. Of course I mean the OCT LOFT which I find to be one of the best conversion projects that I have ever seen.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

Another point to make about the 'human scale' of the towering residential blocks vs. New Urbanism.

I'll give you an example of what I mean in practice and how it works in China.

Towering apartment block near Liwanhu Park in Guangzhou. Not really the outskirts but certainly not the very central location either. A massive elevated urban expressway junction right next to it with wide 6 laned avenue underneath. Very 'unhuman' indeed if we judge it by the standards of 'New Urbanism' and 'human scale'.

Guess what. I get hungry and thirsty at about midnight and decide it would be a good idea to get out and find some fried rice and beer. There is a small corner noodle house right at the ground floor of the compound along with a small corner shop selling cheap beer, drinks, snacks and some other essential stuff. Those places are open till late or all night long. there is a 24 hour KFC and McDonald's within few minutes walk and another bunch of noodle houses same distance away. Be it day or night those places are open and I would never have to worry about having a bite or getting some essentials if I need it. 

This is because the population in a single towering highrise is probably larger than in an entire lowrise residential quarter spread over a much larger area. Whichever way you look at it residential density in such 'horrific' tower blocks is almost inevitably higher than New Urban 'human scale' developments without compromising space on the street level which is still available for everyone to use. Which means that street life in such a location is probably going to be more lively AND sustainable not just during peak times during the day but also during the night. Simply because there are more people in those tall apartment buildings and they are able to sustain active street life, small scale trade and relevant activities.

Now what happens in a comparable lowrise 'human scale' sprawling village-like development during the night? That's right, nothing. It's dead. Because population density is too low. There are always two parts to the urban equation: density=street life. No density=no street life. We can talk about aesthetics and pretty facades as well as pretty narrow (cobble stoned if you like) streets all we want but if there are no people in that place all of that loses any purpose. I'd rather be in an 'ugly' (although this is, of course, a matter of personal taste and nothing more) tower block with amenities that actually work rather than enjoy pretty narrow lanes with pretty facades but zero practical functionality and purpose.


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## mthmchris (Jun 13, 2010)

What a great discussion this thread's become. 



> I don't meean to be objectionable about Schenzen ... I just hate to see [other Chinese cities] lose their buikding heritage to megacities.


Ah, but this is what makes Shenzhen so damn interesting! This tug and pull between 'heritage areas' and 'new development' _happens even in Shenzhen_ - check out the blog Shenzhen Noted, in particular the 'laying siege to the villages' series. 

Now, I'm usually rather sympathetic to her sort of thinking, as I find those places to be some of the most interesting and (at times) pleasant places to walk in the city. Yet we have to appreciate the poetic irony of 'preserving the heritage' of a city with almost no heritage. 

So whether it's Shenzhen, Beijing, Dubai, or New York - the fight for preservation is rarely about 'preservation' per se, but is a rebus concealing an entirely different intellectual struggle: in the problem of a city, what do we value?

Top-down or bottom-up?
Order or chaos?
Grand or intimate?
Organized or messy?
Designed or evolutionary?
Mega-projects or incremental development?



> well your lovely slide-show clearly illustrates the Le Corbusier inspired city that Shenzhen is


The Chinese vision of urbanism, for better or worse, pretty much _is_ Le Corbusier, albeit a bastardized version that's not quite as pernicious. 

When both senior and provincial government officials were encouraged to do tours to the US, Singapore, Hong Kong and Japan during the Deng years in the 1980s, their understandable human response was to see what China lacked and attempt to 'close the gap'. Relevant to urban planning, they saw: cars, malls, subways, and highrises. 

If the American dream is suburbia, I would paint a picture of the Chinese dream as this: 

They would like to live in an apartment complex, fenced in with a garden for their children (and perhaps a small dog) to play in - to give something tangible, something like this Vanke project in Baishilong. Perhaps there's some restaurants and shops below the garden, perhaps not. They will live in a highrise with a large square meterage (none of that cramped in Hong Kong living!). They will have a car in which to drive to work, where they will work at a good, stable, office job, in a large tower like Ping An. On the weekend, they will drive to a mall and be able to buy good, foreign products; or perhaps drive to a place like Hongshulin or Lianhua and have a day in the park playing badminton, flying a kite, or 'pashan'-ing.

This vision is not quite as destructive as the American model, but a large problem is that China's household wealth just plain hasn't caught up yet. The vast majority of people _don't_ have cars, their pay just isn't there to afford something like Vanke...

Anyway, Pansori, for your next trip I'd suggest dropping by two additional places - Shuiwei and Xiasha. These areas should become case studies in how to do development right - decidedly not anti-development, decidedly not anti-highrise - they're still supremely walkable yet still accessible by car.


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## particlez (May 5, 2008)

skymantle said:


> Shenzhen's infrastructure and sheer size and vision is mind-boggling. In such a short amount of time to create such a megalopolis only the Chinese can do.
> 
> But it seriously lacks character and a sense of community. It's not 'human-scale' and inviting. No beauty either, a Le Corbusier nightmare come true some have called it. I hate to think that these are the cities we will all inherit in the not-too-distant future. These cities may 'work' for heavily populated Asia and their mentality but most Westerners will find them very hard to warm too. As a tourist they're interesting, even amazing, but to live in is another story...a horror story.


I was going to add my $0.02 yesterday, but ironically I was stuck in traffic.

Shenzhen isn't an urban dystopia. Individual lives may suck for a variety of reasons, but Shenzhen's built environment was well thought out and pragmatic.

Skymantle isn't the first person to use LeCorbusier as an epithet. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and I'll try to dissect the criticism. LeCorbusier WAS a talented architect and his architecture isn't a problem. The residents and workers in the Unite d'Habitation and other LeCorbusian buildings are humans, not zombies, cyborgs, androids, aliens, etc. That isn't up for debate. 

LeCorbusier's urban planning and his embrace of the car was an issue. In 1922, LeCorbusier came up with the Plan Voisin. In it, he proposed to demolish a large swathe of Paris and to replace it with cruciform high rises and highways. It never had a chance of being implemented, as Paris was already profiting from its architectural beauty. He did however, garner a lot of longstanding infamy for its audacity. LeCorbusier's sponsor was Voisin, and Voisin was a car company. Now do you see why LeCorbusier suddenly embraced the car? And well, Shenzhen is hardly car-centric. Check the ridership statistics for its metro. Ride the metro and appreciate the crowds.

LeCorbusier's pre-cast concrete highrises may be falsely equivocated with dysfunctional urbanism, yet pre-cast concrete highrises are still the most economically pragmatic way of high density housing. Shenzhen wasn't built on the ruins of Paris. It wasn't built over anything. So you are entitled to dislike the aesthetics, but you cannot rationally criticize the actual function.

Lacking character, community and human-scale are baseless and vague, yet somehow pervasive and oddly effective criticisms used by the NU aficionados. Population density (helped in large part by prefab concrete highrises) and public transit investment are two prerequisites for functioning urbanism. This allows residents to WALK to shops and services and to move without the car.

Ironically the watered-down NU that is being built generally lacks the required density and PT investment. It generally has very attractive historicist aesthetics and has provisions for commercial town centers, but the areas lack the necessary population in the pedestrian catchment area. As a result, they're still as car-dependent as other places. NU is an incremental improvement over the now-discredited Levittowns, but it's still very lacking. And to go further off topic, NU was founded, heavily influenced, and publicized by the developer community. It's more about selling houses and making a profit than functioning urbanity. 

And since we're off topic, the most pressing issue in contemporary urban planning isn't a lack of character (lolz, as if any inanimate object has a personality) nor a lack of human scale (the doors and windows still suit human beings). The most pressing issues relate to auto-centrism and a benign neglect of PT investment. Sadly the most vociferous NU boosters tend to stress aesthetics and to label far-off places as urban dystopias, all while ignoring/profiting from really regressive domestic urban planning.


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## particlez (May 5, 2008)

mthmchris said:


> The Chinese vision of urbanism, for better or worse, pretty much _is_ Le Corbusier, albeit a bastardized version that's not quite as pernicious.
> 
> When both senior and provincial government officials were encouraged to do tours to the US, Singapore, Hong Kong and Japan during the Deng years in the 1980s, their understandable human response was to see what China lacked and attempt to 'close the gap'. Relevant to urban planning, they saw: cars, malls, subways, and highrises.


Um, yeah. How did you manage to link Shenzhen to both LeCorbusier and American urbanism? Shenzhen has precast high density concrete highrises, but that's about it. The whole American thing is some SSC meme. 

I don't think about the whole lifestyle thing. If people want to piss away their money on LV bags, or if they want to piss away (yet have fun) their lives on video games, it's unrelated to actual urbanism. Many peoples' lifestyle choices/aspirations are heavily influenced by the marketing efforts of various real estate developers. They may see attractive people and cool creative-class lifestyles in real estate marketing, but it's still marketing, and mostly fluff.

LeCorbusier's objective downfall was his embrace of the private automobile, yet his architecture has been smeared by association. Why aren't Frank LLoyd Wright's Prairie Houses associated with FLW's really dopey urban planning? Shenzhen isn't bastardized LeCorbusier, and there's nothing "pernicious" about high-density housing and subways.

I'm not sure how long you've been away from the US, but its urban development over the past few generations is the polar opposite of Shenzhen's. In US media/real estate marketing, high density concrete inevitably results in the poverty and violence of Pruitt Igoe, and investment in public transit/sewers/roads/any sort of infrastructure is flat out dismissed as financially unattainable. Postmodern/NU planning has been the rage. Heavy emphasis is placed on historist aesthetics. Jane Jacobs' environmental determinism has been extrapolated and held up as intellectual justification. Since pre-auto era people lived in areas which LOOKED a certain way, building new developments with said aesthetics will result in a return to old style urbanism. Doesn't really work, but that's the selling point.

You also have to worry about pro-developer, or impending pro-developer policy changes in China. I've read some pieces in Chinese business magazines criticizing both the aesthetics and the (supposed) financial/debt burden of investing in cities. I hope it doesn't come to pass.

Strangely enough, middle-class people in Shenzhen are more apt to drive their cars than their counterparts in Hong Kong. I don't have statistics, I'm just basing this on my own observations. Yet the public transit network in Shenzhen isn't nearly as developed as PT in Hong Kong. Shenzhen PT doesn't yet reach every part of the urban area, and the existing PT is often hugely overcrowded (e.g. L4 red line, where each trip is akin to a clown car). Hopefully Shenzhen continues to put resources into its PT, and continues to build high density. The private car was a more pragmatic choic


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## binhai (Dec 22, 2006)

Fucking trolls...


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## binhai (Dec 22, 2006)

China street view, including Shenzhen. Fascinating as hell and shows that skymantle is clearly trolling. Shenzhen is dense and alive as hell and is far from a Le Corbusier "towers in the park" city.

http://map.soso.com


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## binhai (Dec 22, 2006)

In fact its far less Le Corbusier than other Chinese cities (that still are alive and bustling). Shenzhen has extremely dense urban villages all throughout the city that are the literal antithesis of Le Corbusier, extremely dense villages built up organically that result in raw urbanity and vitality that beat the hell out of your over-planned "New Urbanism". Other cities in China (such as mine) consist mostly or entirely of commieblocks with fewer or no urban villages, which you can say is more "pure" Le Corbusier planning, and there's still people EVERYWHERE. Lack of people, stores, street activity, etc is something that definitely isn't a problem in China.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

BarbaricManchurian said:


> China street view, including Shenzhen. Fascinating as hell and shows that skymantle is clearly trolling. Shenzhen is dense and alive as hell and is far from a Le Corbusier "towers in the park" city.
> 
> http://map.soso.com


The Le Corbusier term is obviously applicable in a limited sense. The fundamentals of Shenzhen's urban fabric (and, in fact, other big Chinese cities) _are_ based on principles set by Le Corbusier. I mean big transport arteries, tall buildings, large open spaces. But that's about it.

The reason why Le Corbusier is associated with lack of street life is simply because that's what happened with such developments in Europe and USSR back in the days. Not because the planning was bad in itself but because of various contradicting policies and other thing. Hence those who are familiar with that but not familiar with the urban planning in China will associate it with the former by default. It's a different story in China though. And all it really takes is to simply see it. A walk around some streets in residential districts should make it all clear.

I am very much familiar with the Soviet Le Corbusian planning because that's where I grew up and spent most of my life. However I was rather 'shocked' to see how seemingly very similar (from a distance) Le Corbusian residential districts in Shanghai look so different on the street level. The entire myth of evil Le Corbusian planning with 'no street life' simply fades away.

Just a sample from my last year's Shanghai trip. A fairly new highrise residential district built very much according to the Le Corbusian principles: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1549151&page=16

By any standards there is absolutely no lack of street-life in Chinese cities be it Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Shanghai or anything else. That is for sure.


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

mthmchris said:


> What a great discussion this thread's become.


 Thanks, glad to hear it's stimulated positive discussion for the most part. Others who can't take pluralistic and differing views will always resort to put-downs and accusations of trolling, which is pretty weak. 

You and particlez make some pertinent points, so where to start? 

Firstly I have to say that I'm aware Shenzhen is a brand new city and there was never much built heritage to replace. That's why I actually used the word 'building' heritage. What I'm asking is why did the Chinese apply western models for their new cities and not look at their own building heritage for inspiration? I know it likely boils down to economics and the power of churning out buildings and infrastructure quickly and cheaply, but this begs the question is this a good thing and is it sustainable? Those in the west who have followed the Le Corbusier inspired model are now trying to fix the mistakes of this much maligned paradigm and vision. 

You know in ancient times cities like Athens and Corinth were like 'villages' compared to what the Chinese were doing. The Chinese had megacities in comparison to 'civilised and advanced' Europe even back then, with major infrastructure and other constructions that were much more sophisticated and extensive than what was happening west. In fact beyond the Acropolis in ancient cities, until the Romans came, the cities were quite undeveloped and primitive, whilst the Chinese had expansive metropolises that of course didn't turn to Europe and the west for inspiration.

I beg to ask, why couldn't the Chinese adopt some of their own tradition and philosophy into their new cities instead of replicating what's done in the west to accommodate millions, and are these cities really sustainable for the future? 

I understand that there are many more people in China and it makes sense to go up and perhaps they are just NU developments on 'steroids' if you like, where mixed use development does exist. And perhaps even the Chinese mentality and society of tolerable communal living and homogeneity will make these types of cities more suitable to them. It could just be the case that these types of cities Chinese people can cope with better than westerners? I'm not sure and not convinced, but I seriously hope it's the right thing for China because it will be a difficult thing to 'undo' if in the future they find that these cities are not as desirable as they were initially. At least that's what the west so abruptly found out. 

Here's a view from another.
http://mjkurbanflux.wordpress.com/2...-manifestation-of-le-corbusiers-radiant-city/


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## ayanamikun (Feb 2, 2011)

What in world have you been smoking?? :lol:

Ancient Corinth, looking towards the temple of Apollo, Acrocorinth in the background









Ancient Athens' marketplace, view from the roof of the temple of Hephaestus towards the Odeion of Agrippa


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## bozenBDJ (Jul 18, 2012)

^ And 'our' resident DLM 'expert's comes over  .


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

^^ yes, he thinks he is anyway. 



ayanamikun said:


> What in world have you been smoking?? :lol:
> 
> Ancient Corinth, looking towards the temple of Apollo, Acrocorinth in the background


Sweetie, those pictures are of Roman Greece, when thee Romans came and developed cities in their empire, including the ones in Greece. This can be seen by the architecture in the pics as well as the Odeion of Agrippa, and of course Agrippa was Roman. Today the whole Roman Forum in Athens has been excavated and restored thanks to the excellent work of the American School of Classical Studies in Athens. Anyone with an incling of knowledge of classical architecture knows those pics are Roman on first sight. Everyone except you it seems. 

Thanks for proving what I already said, they were unsophisticated places 'until the Romans came'.

Anyway, back to topic please.


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## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

Pansori said:


> The Le Corbusier term is obviously applicable in a limited sense. The fundamentals of Shenzhen's urban fabric (and, in fact, other big Chinese cities) _are_ based on principles set by Le Corbusier. I mean big transport arteries, tall buildings, large open spaces. But that's about it.
> 
> The reason why Le Corbusier is associated with lack of street life is simply because that's what happened with such developments in Europe and USSR back in the days. Not because the planning was bad in itself but because of various contradicting policies and other thing. Hence those who are familiar with that but not familiar with the urban planning in China will associate it with the former by default. It's a different story in China though. And all it really takes is to simply see it. A walk around some streets in residential districts should make it all clear.
> 
> ...


I think that the Le Corbousian attempt in Europe was failed. The density was too low and too spread out. The blockes were too big and there are long blocks that look like mega walls.

The real Le Corbusier is very dense and thin high-rises. That is what similar what China is doing right now. One of the biggest essentials is ground-floor commercial spaces and the Le Corbousian attempt in Europe didn't build any commercial spaces. There were too few roads and all the commercial and communication was made in the areas sub-center. In China everything is mixed. Do you agree?


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## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

skymantle said:


> I think you are looking at the place through 'rose-tinted foreign glasses'.
> 
> Shenzhen is a Le Corbusier inspired city, a misplaced vision.
> 
> http://youtu.be/8lyZzou4mDM?t=21m


There are no real true Le Corbousian cities or areas. The European attempt at Le Corbouser planning was failed. Read my post above, please.

The only good examples of Le Corbousian cities are Singapore, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, and other new developments across China.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> I think that the Le Corbousian attempt in Europe was failed. The density was too low and too spread out. The blockes were too big and there are long blocks that look like mega walls.
> 
> The real Le Corbusier is very dense and thin high-rises. That is what similar what China is doing right now. One of the biggest essentials is ground-floor commercial spaces and the Le Corbousian attempt in Europe didn't build any commercial spaces. There were too few roads and all the commercial and communication was made in the areas sub-center. In China everything is mixed. Do you agree?


Such planning needs density i.e. a lot of people. It could work in principle in any densely populated area. In Europe this could mean The Netherlands, parts of Germany and UK.

China is indeed more suitable in this respect because it does have more densely populated areas.


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## ayanamikun (Feb 2, 2011)

skymantle said:


> ^^ yes, he thinks he is anyway.
> 
> Sweetie, those pictures are of Roman Greece, when thee Romans came and developed cities in their empire, including the ones in Greece. This can be seen by the architecture in the pics as well as the Odeion of Agrippa, and of course Agrippa was Roman. Today the whole Roman Forum in Athens has been excavated and restored thanks to the excellent work of the American School of Classical Studies in Athens. Anyone with an incling of knowledge of classical architecture knows those pics are Roman on first sight. Everyone except you it seems.
> 
> ...


Sweetie, worst thing in the world is to know half the facts and think you know all them.
The American School excavated the Agora, not the Forum. Except of the Odeion all the buildings seen date from Hellenistic and classical era, as a matter of fact the Temple of Ares was classical, which was reassembled to the center of the Agora. When the Roman came to Athens, the sacked the city, evident by the missing buildings like South Stoa II. In which way again you know more about this than me? Most Greek cities had their populations actually diminished after the Roman sackings. Athens had a larger population in the 431 BC peak than in the 1st century AD. How was a village and then became a city? The village that Sulla took columns and materials from the temple of Zeus to the then mud village of Rome in 86 bc to make the Jupiter temple? That Rome didn't have a theater untill 56 bc when all hellenistic cities had stadia and a couple of theaters each? The same goes for most other city states that were torched and never recovered, including Corinth. Go check Ancient Messene built from nothing in the 4th century BC that was even bigger than Athens


And why the conversation turned into city states vs Rome of 2nd century AD? If I remember correct this is what you said:


> Athens and Corinth were like 'villages' compared to what the Chinese were doing


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

Oh please, Forum, Agora, the gathering place, the plaza, most would know what i mean and yes the Americans did excavate that site. All kudos to them.

Yes, Athens and Corinth were like villages in size and sophistication compared to Chinese cities UNTIL the Roman era is what I said. If you can put your chauvenistic, hellenocentric views to one side you may be able to understand that. But anyway, go away unless you're here to contribute in what the discussion is about.



> *You know in ancient times cities like Athens and Corinth were like 'villages' compared to what the Chinese were doing*. The Chinese had megacities in comparison to 'civilised and advanced' Europe even back then, with major infrastructure and other constructions that were much more sophisticated and extensive than what was happening west*. In fact beyond the Acropolis in ancient cities, until the Romans came, the cities were quite undeveloped and primitive, *whilst the Chinese had expansive metropolises that of course didn't turn to Europe and the west for inspiration.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

skymantle said:


> I beg to ask, why couldn't the Chinese adopt some of their own tradition and philosophy into their new cities instead of replicating what's done in the west to accommodate millions, and are these cities really sustainable for the future?


What could it be though? There is rather simple maths to be done. You have x of space and y of people. Now you need to put them somewhere and ensure they have good living conditions. How else could it be done if not how it's done now?

China didn't copy it from the West in the real meaning of it. In fact it copied it from Hong Kong on Singapore for most part. Shenzhen by every means is far, and I mean FAR, more similar in _every_ respect to Singapore/Hong Kong than it is to _any_ city in Europe or US. 

And what do you eman by 'own tradition' anyway? Architecture? Well that wouldn't be too relevant. It's just about aesthetics, not function. Hong Kong is not great for aesthetics. But who cares? It functions well and is, in fact, one of the most vibrant and fascinating cities. Just ask anyone.

If not architectural aesthetics what else could it be? Some sort of 'native' Chinese urban planning ideology? What could it be? And why? Why even bother inventing something new if it can be copied from somebody (Hong Kong and Singapore in this case) where it already works and works well? AND it works well in China too as clearly demonstrated by Shenzhen itself which is one of China's most desirable and liveable cities. So what's the issue? Why try to do something just for the sake of doing it? 

One of China's characteristics is pragmatism: in politics, economy and urban planning too. Thisis the reason why China has been developing at such an astonishing speed in the first place. because it managed to overcome illusions and complexes of remaining completely self-sufficient and instead gone for pragmatic approach of borrowing, copying and implementing good practices and designs from abroad. It works and we have evidence for that.


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## ayanamikun (Feb 2, 2011)

skymantle said:


> Yes, Athens and Corinth were like villages in size and sophistication compared to Chinese cities UNTIL the Roman era is what I said. If you can put your chauvenistic, hellenocentric views to one side you may be able to understand that.


Show me the chinese cities of the 5th-2nd century BC. Show me their ruins, show me reconstructions. Not to mention that the hellenocentric view of the world is concrete product of the written legacy and of the literacy culture, a work of the mind and not of stones. The world is centered around there, because 10 good books that can teach the world are worth 10 extinct empires. I am willing to give at least credit to chinese constructions, but you have to show me first.


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

@ Pansori, ok great, back to discussion about Shenzen.

I agree with what you're saying for the most part and like i said perhaps these megacities do work better for Chinese than westerners? But although they take inspiration from HK and Singapore, one has to remember that those cities were inspired by Le Corbusier western modernism in themselves. 

The Chinese pragmatism being a factor to why these megacities work so well for them, I would definitely agree to.


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> There are no real true Le Corbousian cities or areas. The European attempt at Le Corbouser planning was failed. Read my post above, please.
> 
> *The only good examples of Le Corbousian cities are Singapore, Hong Kong, Shenzhen, and other new developments across China*.


 I hope you're right. :cheers:


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## VECTROTALENZIS (Jul 10, 2010)

skymantle said:


> @ Pansori, ok great, back to discussion about Shenzen.
> 
> I agree with what you're saying for the most part and like i said perhaps these megacities do work better for Chinese than westerners? But although they take inspiration from HK and Singapore, one has to remember that those cities were inspired by Le Corbusier western modernism in themselves.
> 
> The Chinese pragmatism being a factor to why these megacities work so well for them, I would definitely agree to.


Chinese like it grand and big. When travelling to Europe from China, European cities feel like empty small towns in comparison. Chinese cities give a feeling of "BIG". For example European cities even a megacity like London start to have 2 floor houses 1-2 km out of the center. Chinese villages and towns only have 1-5 floors at max, so to make a difference and "wow-ness", Chinese want it big roads and tall buildings because that's a real city.


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

^^ OK, understandably, bigger population should equate to bigger cities, but can we argue that big is not always better? Could Shenzen have been fifteen or so localities in themselves with say a million odd people in each locality and separated by green belts or other natural borders, something like the randstad conurbation in Holland?


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

skymantle said:


> But although they take inspiration from HK and Singapore, one has to remember that those cities were inspired by Le Corbusier western modernism in themselves.


It is true. but once again that is not really relevant. It doesn't matter if it's invented by Westerners or not. The 'Western Modernism' is very oblique in this case. It has to be kept in mind that Le Corbusier's modernism has never really become an accepted mainstream in the West itself. It found a much wider application in the USSR back in the days.

Today it found an almost universal application in China and it seems to work very well. There noone really cares (or even knows) that the fundamentals of such urban planning ideology come from 'Western modernism'. Perhaps just like we don't care that paper or gunpowder 'comes from China'. The fact that it 'comes from the West' in this case is merely a historical fact rather than anything really important that can affect people's lives in any way. And if you look closely, at least in some places, you'll see aspects which are clearly contradictory to Le Corbusian ideology. Such as street stalls and markets which operate within sterile and clean (in theory) Le Corbusian urban environment in Chinese cities (including Hong Kong!).



VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Chinese like it grand and big. When travelling to Europe from China, European cities feel like empty small towns in comparison. Chinese cities give a feeling of "BIG". For example European cities even a megacity like London start to have 2 floor houses 1-2 km out of the center. Chinese villages and towns only have 1-5 floors at max, so to make a difference and "wow-ness", Chinese want it big roads and tall buildings because that's a real city.


Lol, this is true as well. It may not be very evident at first due to the fact that _everything_ is of a large scale so creating relevant 'grand' context. But once you start to imagine how it would all look in the context of a random 'big city' in Europe (even Paris if you like) or US it really starts to look crazy. But I don't think it's because Chinese 'like' it that way. They simply have no choice if they want to accommodate 20-30 million people in a very limited land area and ensure acceptable living standards there.

Take railway stations as an example. The new railway stations are absolutely massive. Simply monumental in scale. And yet at times it feels like they're not big enough because there are so many people there (I'm not even talking of Chinese New Year travel rush. Just an ordinary busy day). They need to be big not because someone feels it's cool but simply because anything smaller would clog up. Same with the airports. Look at Beijing T3. It's impossibly huge. Yet it already operates at near full capacity which is why they're building an entire new airport in Daxing which, of course, will be world's largest (and so for a very practical reason - demand).


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

^^ So Chinese pragmatism in our 'super-sized' times working well. It is incredible, I can see that. At the end of the day it's the people that make a place and the people there seem to have a real optimism and spirit of progress. It's a cohesive society and like I said China can be proud of its achievements. I would rather be part of something positive like that...you could say 'the birth of a culture', as opposed to the 'death of one' which seems to be what's happening in some parts of Europe.

China has the spirit of the 'new world' in a very old country. Kudos to them.


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## cuartango (Apr 22, 2009)

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Chinese like it grand and big. When travelling to Europe from China, European cities feel like empty small towns in comparison. Chinese cities give a feeling of "BIG". For example European cities even a megacity like London start to have 2 floor houses 1-2 km out of the center. Chinese villages and towns only have 1-5 floors at max, so to make a difference and "wow-ness", Chinese want it big roads and tall buildings because that's a real city.


Europe is very diverse. In Spain, there a re a lot of cities with much higher density than London: Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Zaragoza or even medium size cities like Burgos.

When I visited London, I did not like the city because of the low density.


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## skyridgeline (Dec 7, 2008)

skymantle said:


> @ Pansori, ok great, back to discussion about Shenzen.
> 
> I agree with what you're saying for the most part and like i said perhaps these megacities do work better for Chinese than westerners? But although they take inspiration from HK and *Singapore*, one has to remember that those cities were inspired by Le Corbusier western modernism in themselves.
> 
> The Chinese pragmatism being a factor to why these megacities work so well for them, I would definitely agree to.



Back to the jungle ...


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

^^ excellent video. 

I know Singapore well as it's the hub I use travelling between east and west. I didn't know about it embracing biophyllia though, but I'm not surprised, it's a progressive thinking city with much integrity. Very inspirational listening to those people. We could all learn much from them. :cheers:


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## ryan7611 (Nov 15, 2013)

Pansori said:


> Beauty is a subjective term. Is Singapore more beautiful than Paris? Yes and no depending on who you are and what you like.
> 
> There are some rather objective terms though. That would include public spaces, greenery and landscaping, public transport, architecture quality and many other things that make a city 'good'... or 'beautiful' as some might call it. In this respect Shenzhen is indeed already one of the best cities in the world. There is no other big city which has done nearly as much for landscaping and greenery, for instance. That is important for a city.


I quite agree with you.


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## Cho oyo (Dec 6, 2012)

ShenZhen is No.1 skyscrapercity in China


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

it is amazing, wish you go back to shenzhen soon.


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

blakexu said:


> it is amazing, wish you go back to shenzhen soon.


In October


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## blakexu (Aug 17, 2013)

Pansori said:


> In October


wow, hope the air is good for u to travel.
u should go to see the Sea World at night, OCT Bay at night,
and go to see the futian cbd change in day time haha.
Of couse you should go to see that amazing new airport


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## cuartango (Apr 22, 2009)

blakexu said:


> wow, hope the air is good for u to travel.


What does that mean?


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## chinesehorse (May 7, 2014)

Maybe in 10 or so years, we won't call this area "around Hong Kong," but rather, "around Shenzhen." Maybe Hong Kong will be called "around Shenzhen!"


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## Pansori (Apr 26, 2006)

chinesehorse said:


> Maybe in 10 or so years, we won't call this area "around Hong Kong," but rather, "around Shenzhen." Maybe Hong Kong will be called "around Shenzhen!"


I don't think so 

The reson sometimes Shenzhen is described in such a way is simply because some people don't know what or where it is. This will never happen with Hong Kong.

I also noticed that while Shenzhen is still not very well known among ordinary population in the West this is changing very fast. Many of those from Europe who do business in China are basing their operations in Shenzhen or have to travel there regularly. Since the number of Westerners who have business in China is increasing so is increasing the number of people who know about Shenzhen. For many this is, in fact, the main base for their business and main location in China that they visit or live permanently.

And it does make good sense to be located there. China is within easy reach as so is SE Asia and Japan. Not to mention Hong Kong being next door as well as top notch infrastructure and supply chain unrivaled in China. And finally the PRD region which has got the biggest urban area and the most densely populated region in China. Once you take all of this into account there probably isn't a better place to stay in China than Shenzhen.


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## chinesehorse (May 7, 2014)

Right you are. My drunken fantasies though.... XD


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