# ESTONIA | Railways



## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Elektriraudtee has released new renders.

Diesel Stadler Flirt in central train station.









Diesel train interior.


















Diesel train exterior.









And yes,that's a diesel train run by our electric railways  (STFU Edelaraudtee!)



















Full gallery (includes new layout plans,check it out!): http://www.flickr.com/photos/elektriraudtee/sets/72157624526624551


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Worth mentioning here as well.


Rebasepoiss said:


> Another 2 nice videos by the same user:
> Rapla-Tallinn
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dakkus (May 12, 2005)

Why is it, actually, that Elektriraudtee is operating also diesel services? What will happen to Edelaraudtee? Did it somehow want to give up the operation or did somebody want to get rid of Edelaraudtee?


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Dakkus said:


> Why is it, actually, that Elektriraudtee is operating also diesel services? What will happen to Edelaraudtee? Did it somehow want to give up the operation or did somebody want to get rid of Edelaraudtee?


Yeah,there's some dissatisfaction about Edelaraudtee service,on both public & government levels. There's an opinion,that Edelaraudtee is a money leeching private company who doesn't care about improving their service. Unfortunately it's true - company receives enough profits to run most of their lines WITHOUT subsidies,but their still demand more money from government. Not to mention their poor service schedules and rolling stock (ancient RVR DR1A's,which often break down)...

I guess government saw opportunity to move regional railway service to more reliable company - Elektriraudtee is government owned (unlike Edelaraudtee,which is private company). 

There's a lot uncertainty what will happen in next few years when new DMU's arrive - Edelaraudtee could be nationalized and merged with Elektriraudtee or it could continue as private company,which only operates lines owned by themselves (Tallinn-Pärnu & Lelle-Viljandi) or they will rent new trains from Elektriraudtee and improve their operations under strict government supervision.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Taken yesterday:


Tin_Can said:


> Photo update of *Ülemiste station reconstruction works.* Deadline is in December and looks like there won't be any delays (although it's suspicious if works will be completed before Xmas),as pedestrian tunnel & platforms are almost finished now. Btw,if you take a good look at the last photo,then you'll also notice new fences on the right side of the tracks. So by now railways between Smuuli bridge & Ülemiste junction are all fenced,which definitely helps to improve safety.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Video of MEV-1 electric shunter in action in Pääsküla depot.

Video by Youtube user 2M62. ©


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

..Speaking of electric trains.. Has there been any discussion about AC electifying Estorian railways?

For example Belarus is AC electrifying their east-west and north-south rail infra even at this very moment. Financing is done by Chianese investments.

http://translate.google.fi/translat...id=5d58cabe9974f91b4b3f5ab1effd721b&start=700


..Why Estonia could not repeat what Belarus is doing??


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

^^
Despite extensive reconstruction works currently ongoing at Western half of electric railways,there isn't much point of changing 3 kV DC at the moment as entire Estonian electric railway network is separated from neighbouring countries and is relatively small. 

Maybe 5-10 years from now on it will be considered,once Rail Baltica and proposed electrification of Tallinn-St.Petersburg line reach planning phases...


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Tin_Can said:


> Maybe 5-10 years from now on it will be considered,once Rail Baltica and proposed electrification of Tallinn-St.Petersburg line reach planning phases...


But October Railway (the one in St. Peterburg) is 3000 V DC, as well as Latvia... So the appearance of AC electrification in Estonia are highly unlikely, unless as part of some great project of 1435 railway or something...



Pro rail baltica said:


> ..Why Estonia could not repeat what Belarus is doing??


Well, Belarus already have extensive network of AC electrification, used not only for suburban trains, but also for freight and intercity\euronight trains. Extending of existing network is easier and cheaper, and also Belarus neighbours - Lithuania, South-West railway and Moscow railway are also AC-electrified.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

First Estonian Stadler Flirt EMU is taking shape in Stadler Rail's Hungarian production plant.










:cheers:


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

Tin_Can said:


> ^^
> once Rail Baltica and proposed electrification of Tallinn-St.Petersburg line reach planning phases...


Could you please share some links related into this plan?


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Pro rail baltica said:


> Could you please share some links related into this plan?


It's not a solid plan,it's just a wild rumour from newpapers:


Tin_Can said:


> *Entire Tallinn-St.Petersburg line could be electrified by 2018.*
> 
> Russia plans to electrify section between Jaanilinn/Ivangorod and St.Petersburg by 2015. As Russia needs all possible routes to accommodate passenger flow of 2018 FIFA World Cup visitors,there's a tiny chance that Estonia will electrify Aegviidu-Narva section,which in turn will increase top speeds on that route.
> 
> ...


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Photo update of recently completed *Ülemiste station* in Tallinn. :cheers: 

Entrance on Ülemiste road.









Pedestrian tunnel. Those grooves on the right are probably meant for advertising billboards. Tunnel and the station itself is very solidly built and vandalism proof,but I'm afraid that sooner or later tunnel gets covered with graffiti :no:



























Last remaining old platform has been demolished and currently workers are doing site clean-up. 


















Entrance on Suur-Sõjamäe street.




































+ small bonus - Eesti Raudtee's hyrail maintenance truck. Oh and you can see new fences behind it. As I mentioned before,entire railway between Smuuli viaduct and Ülemiste junction has been fenced off.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

First Stadler Flirt wagon,meant for Estonia, has been painted to new Elektriraudtee livery and is ready for assembly.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

*Private company plans to buy Stadler trains which will be used on Tallinn-St.Petersburg line.*

Estonian bus company Lux Express announced today that they plan to enter railway market and are going to buy two new trains from Stadler Rail. Trains will be used on Tallinn-St.Petersburg line. Decision was made because of very high passenger numbers on Lux Express bus routes between two cities.

Line will become operational in first half of 2015.


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## Dakkus (May 12, 2005)

Stainless said:


> I don't think train ferries will be that useful along this route. As the ferry goes direct from Tallinn to Helsinki there is little point in carrying a train across the sea for the few km to central Helsinki. The current ferries are very popular with locals of both cities. In comparison the crossing on the route to Copenhagen is a long distance from any city on either side so it makes loading the train convenient. Also Finland has a different gauge, that train offloads cargo onto a short standard gauge section in Turku for transfer onto Finnish gauge. This short section is refered to as 'little Sweden'.


Finland isn't only Helsinki, nor is Estonia only Tallinn. And then there's this place called "Europe" 
If there is no train connection, a trip from Tampere to Riga will look like this:
Take a train to Helsinki (2h), interrupt what you were doing and leave the train, then walk 200 m to tram with a lot of luggage. Take the tram number 9 to the west harbour, line in the queue and do the check-in for the ship. Wait for one hour until it's 20 minutes to your ship's departure, then board the ship. Boarding the ship of course includes hauling your luggage another couple hundred meters. Find a nice place for your luggage, find something to do for two hours until your ship arrives to Tallinn. In Tallinn leave the ship (walking once again some 200 m) and then either walk further 700 m to the tram stop and take the tram for two stops to get to the Tallinn train station or alternatively, haul your luggage on foot all the 1,3 km to the station so that you don't need to worry about buying the tram ticket. Wait until the train's departure time, board the train, you are at last in the train that brings you to your destination!

When the train connection exists, this is what you do:
You board the train in Tampere, you continue to Tallinn, either changing trains in Tallinn or continuing further with the same train.

This gets even more important if flying becomes so expensive that train is the only feasible way for anybody else than businessmen for traveling to Europe...

Also, extending the Lapland-Helsinki night trains to Estonia would make a lot of sense, as well, because such trains could reach Tallinn before noon and be at a reasonable time in Tartu. And how about having a night train begin in Oulu a bit after 16, pass Tampere at 22 and the Vuosaari harbour in the eastern end of the Helsinki metro line a bit before midnight, arrive by ship to Tallinn a bit after three in the night and continue through the Baltics, being in Kaunas around 8:30 and in Warsaw at 11:30. Even continuing further south to Krakow (arrival at 15) could make sense, as would leaving a few sleeper cars to the Riga train station to wait for morning, like they do in Stockholm. This has been calculated with an average speed of 100 km/h which seems to be how fast the intercity train from Oulu to Helsinki runs. All such connections are impossible without a train connection from Finland to Estonia.

The funny thing is, when Rail Baltica gets connected to Finland, they will probably have to introduce gauge switching, because Finland has too much passenger traffic for converting routes to 1435 mm and too little inhabitants to build dedicated high speed tracks in 1435 mm as was done in Spain. At that point it will suddenly become clear to everyone, why building the tracks 1435 mm all the way to Tallinn was a very stupid idea. Once you have gauge-switching trains, routes like Vilnius-Tartu or Warsaw-Riga-St. Petersburg will suddenly make a lot more sense than earlier. And then there will be a need for gauge switching equipment here and there instead of having just one at the Lithuanian-Polish border... And, did I already mention that gauge switchers don't really like ice and snow all that much, so they should be located as south as possible?


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

The reason why Rail Baltic will be 1435mm is because the chance of Tallinn-Helsinki tunnel being built is close to zero. To build RB 1520/24 mm just in case the Finns might some day use it is nonsense. It's a lot more logical for us to have it 1435mm.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

More bits & pieces of our first new Stadler DMU.










enging block (btw,it should show how easily accessible engines will be)


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

*Catenary reconstruction works on Western direction railways.* Out of curiosity I visited Klooga area today to see how works have progressed. Klooga-Rand section is really impressive. Elektrizace železnic Praha a.s. has done outstanding work 

Klooga station. Fairly modern look 









Klooga station has mixed catenary at the moment - you can see old posts still standing and new ones have been also installed. It's understandable,why old posts haven't been removed - half the station is full of removed old caternary posts and even when I was there,excavator was chopping them up.




































Right branch (which we are taking) heads to Klooga-Rand,while the left heads to Paldiski. Works are currently going on on latter section.









Caternary works on Western direction - Keila-Klooga-Paldiski,Keila-Riisipere & Tallinn-Keila railways will end in summer 2013. 
Railway reconstruction on same railways should begin in next month. Once it's complete,entire Western direction will have 160km/h maximum speeds.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

*Catenary reconstruction works on Western direction railways.*

Klooga - Klooga-Rand railway.




































Klooga-Rand station.









Well,that's all. 









Caternary works on Western direction - Keila-Klooga-Paldiski,Keila-Riisipere & Tallinn-Keila railways will end in summer 2013. 
Railway reconstruction on same railways should begin in next month. Once it's complete,entire Western direction will have 160km/h maximum speeds.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

eu01 said:


> And yes, on some areas of the Baltic countries the gauge did change back and forth in history, but it was necessary for the fighting armies to get deeper into the territory with their stock, no matter what costs involved (compromising on quality though).


Back in a day, regauging was cheap: remove the spike from wooden, move rail a bit, drive spike into new position.
Concrete sleepers, in contrast, must be replaced, in case of regauging.


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

XAN_ said:


> *Pro rail baltica*, wait, are sure that's an AC extensions? There are no AC railways for hundreds of km from Ust-Luga (nearest is either Vilnus or Orsha - ~700 km by rail), but plenty of DC, both Estonia and all railways around St.-Petersburg


Hmm yep you were right. The new extension wil be DC.
http://www.rzdp.com/lengtp/projects...stka-mga-kirishi-so-stroitelstvom-2-kh-putey/

Anyway, Latvians are extending AC all the way to Skulte it is 255 Km distance to Tallin 

Map of Latvia AC project


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow, never heard about Latvian project. It wouldn't be an extension of existing AC network, but rather conversion of existing DC network, and then extending it.
Which make sense, because both Belarus and Lithuania are 25 kv AC.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

^^
Yes, the plan is to have AC from Ventspils to Rīga to Minsk! There was also a plan to extend to Moscow, but it doesn't seem that the Russians are willing to do anything on their side.

Firstly we will convert to AC, then extend to Daugavpils and then do the rest which you can see in the map posted by Pro Rail Baltica.


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

XAN_ said:


> Wow, never heard about Latvian project. It wouldn't be an extension of existing AC network, but rather conversion of existing DC network, and then extending it.
> Which make sense, because both Belarus and Lithuania are 25 kv AC.


I think first phase of the EU funded project was to decide should they keep DC or change to AC. They decided to switch to AC. So das vi danja DC network soon.

Soon Latvia will have AC trains from Stadler, but no AC network 
http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/transport/?doc=93502

The Estonian electric distribution company Elering has also conducted study from the potential of 25 kV -> 
http://www.energiatalgud.ee/img_aut...ja_selle_mõju_elektrisüsteemi_talitlusele.pdf

You can use search and copy paste juicy bits into google translator. I suppose Estonians will just wait will Latvians do everything as planned. They have forecasted that Rail Baltica will have 2 x 25 kV distribution.

They have already made international agreement about extending it all the way to Belarus:

http://eng.belta.by/all_news/econom...-Daugavpils-line-electrification_i_73108.html

..I suppose in Estonian case it will make sense to have at duo electric use for their trains in future, since the DC line will be soon extended all the way to Narva.

Latvians are pretty serious with their AC conversion plans. I discussed with my friends about the topic and most probably they will operate the conversion period with the modernized diesel trains at Riga region and then start to use the new Flirt trains as AC dedicated. Dual use dont make sence and it is more expensive in Rigas case.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

Pro Rail Baltica, keep in mind that we still don't have any technical specs for the Flirts! We don't know if they will be AC-only. But maybe they could be - the earliest for the start of the conversion was, I think, 2016 - the same time when we will have first Flirts.


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> Pro Rail Baltica, keep in mind that we still don't have any technical specs for the Flirts! We don't know if they will be AC-only. But maybe they could be - the earliest for the start of the conversion was, I think, 2016 - the same time when we will have first Flirts.


I have tough already some while that there is *mitch-match / error* in AC-conversion and plan getting rid of DC and the train procurement.

Anyway, what ever Riga will do with the will most probably will be used as case example for Tallin 

Yes you are right, BUT similar topic about dual use has been going on at 
http://jlf.fi/f20/115-tampereen-pikaratikkahanke/index159.html

From Tampere light rail topic. The initial plan was to get identical tram-train models to Turku and Tampere. Further study however indicated that the electrical system (dual system) is more expensive than single system. Then there was additional cost also from other sources as well. Anyway the point was that it would not be justified to get additional technical features which make solution more complex and expensive if there is need only for short time use.

Now Turku will go solo with it's Tram-train plans.

If Riga region get rid of DC network as planned then the trains dont need duo system. It is more expensive. Then the dual system should be also in the future Locos etc. It dont sound very logical to keep the old DC network at all.

PV can use the modernised diesel trains for conversion period.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

^^
The DC would dissappear one line at a time during the conversion. We won't need ANY dual voltage locomotives. The dual voltage EMUs would be needed only if we want to see new trains on the lines before the conversion.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Pro rail baltica said:


> So das vi danja DC network soon.


Do svidanja (do=until (next) svidanja=meeting)
Anyway, nice information :cheers:


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Estonia won't switch to AC at least in the coming decades. DC is good enough for existing electrified railways around Tallinn and there aren't any plans to expand the network.

Rail Baltic will be AC but it's standard gauge anyway so it doesn't really matter.


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

Rebasepoiss said:


> Estonia won't switch to AC at least in the coming decades. DC is good enough for existing electrified railways around Tallinn and there aren't any plans to expand the network.
> 
> Rail Baltic will be AC but it's standard gauge anyway so it doesn't really matter.


Hmm.. I have understood Rail Baltica in two separate projects.. Phase 1 and Phase 2. As presented in the earlier link page 43.
http://www.energiatalgud.ee/img_aut...ja_selle_mõju_elektrisüsteemi_talitlusele.pdf

Yellow and green lines (trass II). That will be build first before the standard gauge. I am sure from it.


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Pro rail baltica said:


> Hmm.. I have understood Rail Baltica in two separate projects.. Phase 1 and Phase 2. As presented in the earlier link page 43.
> http://www.energiatalgud.ee/img_aut...ja_selle_mõju_elektrisüsteemi_talitlusele.pdf
> 
> Yellow and green lines (trass II). That will be build first before the standard gauge. I am sure from it.


Well... Rail Baltic is indeed built in two phases, at least over here, first is rebuilding the old line Tallinn-Tartu-Valga to 120kph, no electrification, phase two is the new 240kph standard gauge line via Pärnu (red line on the PDF). Currently phase 1 is completed.


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

Rebasepoiss said:


> Estonia won't switch to AC at least in the coming decades. DC is good enough for existing electrified railways around Tallinn and there aren't any plans to expand the network.
> 
> Rail Baltic will be AC but it's standard gauge anyway so it doesn't really matter.


Well honestly speaking I will assume that is that Pärnu track will be 240km/h, double gauged into both directions that Estonians and others would not use the track for commuter trafic also. I see high probability that in future there will be in use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000 equipped Flirts


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Pro rail baltica said:


> Well honestly speaking I will assume that is that Pärnu track will be 240km/h, double gauged into both directions that Estonians and others would not use the track for commuter trafic also. I see high probability that in future there will be in use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000 equipped Flirts


Wait, is there a powered SUW_2000? AFAIK, only non-powered SUW_2000 bogies exist, and even they had their share of problems several years ago, when UZ started using them.


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Pro rail baltica said:


> Well honestly speaking I will assume that is that Pärnu track will be 240km/h, double gauged into both directions that Estonians and others would not use the track for commuter trafic also. I see high probability that in future there will be in use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUW_2000 equipped Flirts





XAN_ said:


> Wait, is there a powered SUW_2000? AFAIK, only non-powered SUW_2000 bogies exist, and even they had their share of problems several years ago, when UZ started using them.


Rail Baltica will be standard gauge, double gauge line with 4 rails will be only in places where there isn't any room for a separate line, like entry into Tallinn or Pärnu. And our Flirts will stay on the russian gauge lines.
SUW 2000 is meant for non-powered carriages. Only Talgo has made powered double gauge bogies.


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

Maadeuurija said:


> Rail Baltica will be standard gauge, double gauge line with 4 rails will be only in places where there isn't any room for a separate line, like entry into Tallinn or Pärnu. And our Flirts will stay on the russian gauge lines.
> SUW 2000 is meant for non-powered carriages. Only Talgo has made powered double gauge bogies.


Seems to be even more then Talgo and SUW. There is plenty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge#Systems

Anyway my main point was that I think each country will at least investigate the possibilities of utilizing RB for national trafficking


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

BTW, I recently had e a talk with civil activist promoting Ukraine-Romania rail connection, and he stated, from their last discussion with UZ (UA railway), that cost of maintaing SUW infrastructure and rolling stock are unjustifiably high.

So it seems, so far, in Europe there are only two proven and successful VGA system - Talgo and CAF.


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## Pro rail baltica (Nov 3, 2009)

I was googling "Elektriraudtee AC süsteemi" and I noticed that 

*Tallin university of technology* has started recently publish all kind of studies related to AC locomotives and AC infra conversion:

http://digi.lib.ttu.ee/c/?c=13

http://www.ttu.ee/en/

I think this is clear indication that after Latvians have finished their AC works something similar will happend in Estonia too. ..Most probably the AC works in both countries will be done by same Chinese company that does the works in Belarus at the moment. (You can easily find details by google)


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...n-rail-baltica-joint-venture.html?channel=542
> 
> *Deal reached on Rail Baltica joint venture*
> Wednesday, October 29, 2014
> ...


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ You can see the Rail Baltic route alternatives here. The preferred route is marked in green.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Rail Baltica is due to be completed by 2024? I'll believe it when I'll see it. But it would be great if that were really true.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Slartibartfas said:


> Rail Baltica is due to be completed by 2024? I'll believe it when I'll see it. But it would be great if that were really true.


Yes, construction should start somewhere around 2018 to 2020.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

But that would mean a construction time of 4-6 years... for around 800 km. That would be damn fast.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ I'm not really familiar with how long these kind of projects take elsewhere but I'm guessing the most time consuming part is tunneling which isn't necessary for the Rail Baltic project. There will be a huge amount of viaducts and ecoducts, though...


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

Well... each country has to build only about 250 km in those 4 years... hm...


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

The Estonian part is 200 km long, 215 km if you include the branch to Muuga harbour.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

I am just asking because my only experience with bigger rail projects is the Austrian west corridor (Vmax of track: 250 kph). A project that has been constantly in the working for 20 years or so. And they are finishing only now the last stretch between Linz and Vienna, completing the core ~190 km. For the rest of the corridor to the German border we'll be waiting another 10-20 years. 

But probably you could be a lot faster, if you want to. Still, 4 years sounds ambitious to me.

Btw, what would be the main relations for passenger rail on Rail Baltica, once finished? Most bigger cities connected there are all in different countries. Is there a lot of travelling between the Baltic capitals and or other major cities? Are a lot of people travelling to Warsaw and/or Helsinki? 

In any case, I guess the freight traffic alone could justify this corridor, maybe not a a track of that speed but certainly a modern double track standard gauge connection.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ 4 years is indeed a bit too ambitious but 6 years is quite realistic IMO, especially since, as I said before, no tunneling is required on this route. 

Besides, it's a bit different for most Western European countries. They already have a functioning standard gauge railway network. The Baltics would basically get their first standard gauge line (apart from the short line in Lithuania) so for it to make sense you have to build it all in one go.

The bulk of the revenue would indeed come from freight trains, the passenger rail side of it is basically an added bonus. Even then, it's a bit unclear whether it will pay off purely in the economic sense. Rail Baltic is as much (if not more) a political project as it is an economical one. It would add a vital connection between the Baltics and the rest of Europe. It would also connect the Baltic States to each other better. Tallinn - Riga would take 2 hours (currently 4.5 hours by bus) and Tallinn - LT/PL border would take 4.5 hours. 

The Baltic States and the EU have already spent a lot of money in making the Baltic region less dependent on Russian energy, for example. There are 2 new underwater power lines between Estonia and Finland. An underwater cable between Poland and Sweden should also be in construction and several power lines to Poland will follow. In the future the Baltic States will disconnect themselves from the Russian power grid and join the Central European one. Add up the LNG terminal in Lithuania, a new gas pipe between Estonia and Finland and another LNG terminal in Finland etc. All of these make little sense in purely economical terms...the reasons are mainly political and I personally think that Rail Baltic should also be viewed in this perspective, at least partially.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

I am starting to wonder if my (Latvian) side can build it in time... The new South bridge in Rīga was built in exactly four years. But the Rail Baltica Daugava crossing will be 1,7 times longer and over a much deeper part of the river (hydro plant reservoir). And, if I'm not mistaken, the bridge will have not only the railway but also the A4 (Via Baltica) road which adds to construction time.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/gorail-to-cut-estonia-–-russia-services.html?channel=537
> 
> *GoRail to cut Estonia – Russia services*
> Wednesday, January 07, 2015
> ...


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## Eiropro (May 18, 2013)

Slartibartfas said:


> I am just asking because my only experience with bigger rail projects is the Austrian west corridor (Vmax of track: 250 kph). A project that has been constantly in the working for 20 years or so. And they are finishing only now the last stretch between Linz and Vienna, completing the core ~190 km. For the rest of the corridor to the German border we'll be waiting another 10-20 years.
> 
> But probably you could be a lot faster, if you want to. Still, 4 years sounds ambitious to me.
> 
> ...


But in Austria you have complicated terrain, mountains, highier population density, Rail Baltica will mostly go on very flat terrain.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

In Austria even the upgrade of the main track leading from Vienna (Pop.: 1.8 Mio) to Bratislava (Pop.: 0.5 Mio) on a length of about 30 km (!) from single track non-electric to double track electric and increased max speed of 160 km/h is projected to take 15 years :crazy: (and has been talked about for the last 25 years). The corridor we are talking about is already there, just the 2nd track and overhead lines are missing. It is also the straightest rail line in the entire country basically being a straight line from Vienna to the border on a basically completely flat terrain ...

thats Austrian rail construction for you 

(The reason for this is obviously that the ÖBB has no money for this small to mid sized undertaking because its suffering from a mild overload of tunnelling projects: Koralm and now starting of Semmering and Brenner baset tunnels ... add to that the new central station in Vienna etc)


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

Slartibartfas said:


> thats Austrian politics for you


FYP.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Why does it take long to build rail projects in Austria?


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

LtBk said:


> Why does it take long to build rail projects in Austria?


Lack of political support. Those with support are built quick and on time.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

What about the general population? Is the rail lobby weak in Austria?


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## Goy (Sep 27, 2014)

*Rail Baltica is vital to Baltic countries independence. A track avoind passing by Russian territory could get Baltic Countries more independence from Russian imperialism.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ That's not an accurate map.

The route will go Tallinn-Pärnu-Riga-Panevežys-Kaunas. This is a more accurate representation of the route:


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## tunnel owl (May 19, 2013)

Rebasepoiss said:


> An underwater cable between Poland and Sweden should also be in construction and several power lines to Poland will follow. In the future the Baltic States will disconnect themselves from the Russian power grid and join the Central European one.


 Little OT but: It´s political and it makes sense. Power lines from Baltics to Poland afford to join the UCTPE-System and it´s frequencies as east european countries did leaving CENTREL. I´m not firm with this that much, but baltic traffic seems to be mainly car-related.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

chornedsnorkack said:


> So... what should be a proper express train schedule Riga-Valga? It´s about 11 % shorter than Tallinn-Tartu, so 1:50 should be reasonable. Stops... Tallinn-Tartu has 3 outside Tallinn, and on Valga-Riga there are 3 obvious candidates. Valmiera, Cesis, Sigulda. Then maybe 1 station in Riga? Which of the 3 stations in Riga would be best placed for a stop of an express train that skips the other two? Jugla, Ciekurkalns or Zemitani?
> That 121 km Valmiera-Riga is about 63 % of Tallinn-Tartu. So how would Valmiera like an express train which reaches Riga in about 1:17, with the stops aforesaid - one which originates in Estonia, makes previous stop in Valga and is not the only option because milk runs stopping at Brenguli, Bale etc. also operate?


I believe that Zemitāni would be the best option for a stop in Rīga. The other stops are very hard to get to - both are hundreds of meters from any public transport and accessible only by gravel paths :bash:
While Zemitāni is easily reachable from anywhere in the eastern part of the city.

Would 1:17 really be possible? It takes 1:25 by car and 1:55 by fastest bus (it stops only in Valmiera and Rīga). If it could be possible, then the bus would be out of competition :banana:


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> Would 1:17 really be possible? It takes 1:25 by car and 1:55 by fastest bus (it stops only in Valmiera and Rīga). If it could be possible, then the bus would be out of competition :banana:


Tartu-Tapa: 112,5 km, single track, unelectrified line
Expresses have 2 stops: Jõgeva and Tamsalu.
Express travel time since 17th instant: 1:11 (departing 7:29 and 8:21), 1:12 (departing 15:16), 1:15 (departing 18:06).

So, a train Valmiera-Riga with 3 stops (Cesis, Sigulda, Zemitani) should be feasible within 1:20.

Now, the milk runs do 7 more stops between Tartu and Tapa (from Kärkna to Kiltsi), total 9 intermediate stops then. Resulting travel time, again since 17th instant: 1:30 (departing 6:19), 1:32 (departing 14:20), 1:29 (departing 16:52), 1:26 (departing 19:45).

So, 7 stops add just 15 minutes, minimum to minimum.

A milk run Valmiera-Sigulda would add just 7 stops, Bale to Ligatne (with Cesis already on the express). So, how about a train that travels Valmiera-Riga in 1:35, having picked up passengers from all the stations Valmiera to Sigulda, then nonstop Sigulda to Zemitani?


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

chornedsnorkack said:


> Tartu-Tapa: 112,5 km, single track, unelectrified line
> Expresses have 2 stops: Jõgeva and Tamsalu.
> Express travel time since 17th instant: 1:11 (departing 7:29 and 8:21), 1:12 (departing 15:16), 1:15 (departing 18:06).
> 
> ...


I think it would be better, yes. But I think that the train could be ~5 minutes slower because in Rīga there are slow curves which add quite some time. And Čiekurkalns-Jugla is only 90 km/h. The rest until Valga is 100-120 km/h


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> And the reason is time. Yes, there is Zilupe-Rīga which allows the people of Zilupe get to work in Rīga because the train arrives in Rīga at 8:27. But how many people from Zilupe use it? It departs at 3:30!


Back to Estonia, listing early morning trains to Tallinn from distant origins:
331 Valga-Tartu leaves Valga at 6:16. After 82,5 km, 11 intermediate stops Sangaste to Aardla, arrival in Tartu 7:26
383 Koidula-Tartu leaves Koidula 6:04. After about 87 km, 16 intermediate stops Orava to Kirsi, arrival in Tartu 7:19
0011 Tartu-Tallinn leaves Tartu 7:29, as an express with the 4 intermediate stops - arrival in Tallinn 9:28. Not sure if both trains to Tartu require connection in Tartu, or if one of them continues as the express, one seat.
From Tartu, early morning train 211 originates at 6:19. After 17 intermediate stops, arrives in Tallinn at 8:49. Note that this is 31 minutes longer than the express, so that´s what the 13 stops cost.
In the other lines:
223 Narva-Tallinn originates 7:05. After 210 km and 18 intermediate stops, arrives in Tallinn 9:49
221 Rakvere-Tallinn originates 6:15 (Rakvere is also served by 223 leaving at 8:29). After about 95 km and 9 intermediate stops, arrives in Tallinn 7:35.
370 Türi-Tallinn originates 5:26. After about 95 km and 16 stops, arrives in Tallinn 7:04
042 Viljandi-Tallinn originates 6:35 and has 146 km to Tallinn. After 6 intermediate stops, leaves Türi 7:16. Then makes 8 intermediate stops between Türi and Tallinn, arrives in Tallinn 8:43
302 Pärnu-Lelle originates 6:31. After 69,5 km and 7 intermediate stops, terminates at Lelle in 7:32 and forces connection to 042 which departs Lelle at 7:37.

Um, so much about morning in Estonia, not going to suburban electric trains. But...
Say that there were an express train Tartu-Riga. Since the express train for Tallinn 7:29 and milk train 6:19 are viable, let´s make the Riga express 7:00, and of course originating.
With the demonstrated speeds of express trains, in my opinion the plausible times might be Valga 7:50, then Valmiera 8:20, Sigulda 9:05, Riga 9:40.

Would an express train arriving in Riga at 9:40 and picking up people from Valga to Sigulda 7:50 to 9:05 be any use to people of Vidzeme? It need not be the first train in the morning, if an all-stop train originates at Valga before the express comes from Tartu.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

chornedsnorkack said:


> 331 Valga-Tartu leaves Valga at 6:16. After 82,5 km, 11 intermediate stops Sangaste to Aardla, arrival in Tartu 7:26
> 383 Koidula-Tartu leaves Koidula 6:04. After about 87 km, 16 intermediate stops Orava to Kirsi, arrival in Tartu 7:19
> 0011 Tartu-Tallinn leaves Tartu 7:29, as an express with the 4 intermediate stops - arrival in Tallinn 9:28. Not sure if both trains to Tartu require connection in Tartu, or if one of them continues as the express, one seat.


I was on that train - it's the Valga train that continues as the express. 


> Um, so much about morning in Estonia, not going to suburban electric trains. But...
> Say that there were an express train Tartu-Riga. Since the express train for Tallinn 7:29 and milk train 6:19 are viable, let´s make the Riga express 7:00, and of course originating.
> With the demonstrated speeds of express trains, in my opinion the plausible times might be Valga 7:50, then Valmiera 8:20, Sigulda 9:05, Riga 9:40.
> 
> Would an express train arriving in Riga at 9:40 and picking up people from Valga to Sigulda 7:50 to 9:05 be any use to people of Vidzeme? It need not be the first train in the morning, if an all-stop train originates at Valga before the express comes from Tartu.


It would be a good train because currently at Sigulda the previous train leaves at 8:00 and the next at 9:57. And the Valga trains are either too early (4:55) or too late (11:24)


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

To summarize (most of) my previous, too detailed and long post
presenting the times of morning trains to Tallinn from origins over 100 km from Tallinn

Valga, 273 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 6:16, arrives 9:28, trip time 3:12
Koidula, 276 km from Tallinn: 10 min connection at Tartu, departs 6:04, arrives in Tallinn 9:28, travel time 3:24
Tartu, 190 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 6:19, arrives 8:49, trip time 2:30
Narva, 201 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 7:05, arrives 9:49, trip time 2:44
Viljandi, 146 km from Tallinn: direct train, departs 6:35, arrives 8:43, trip time 2:08
Pärnu, 141 km from Tallinn: 5 min connection at Lelle, departs 6:31, arrives in Tallinn 8:43, travel time 2:12

So... on the Latvian side, when does first morning train leave Valmiera for Riga, when does it arrive and what is the trip time?
What is the distance Cesis-Riga by railway?


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

chornedsnorkack said:


> So... on the Latvian side, when does first morning train leave Valmiera for Riga, when does it arrive and what is the trip time?
> What is the distance Cesis-Riga by railway?


The first Valmiera-Rīga train leaves Valmiera at 5:04. It arrives in Cēsis at 5:33, Sigulda at 6:17 and Rīga at 7:29.

The second is a Valga-Rīga train which leaves Valmiera at 6:02, Cēsis at 6:32, Sigulda at 7:16 and arrives at Rīga at 8:26.

The rest of the trains are later in the day.

Cēsis - Rīga is 93 km


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Looked up the numbers for second round of important stations.
Rakvere-Tallinn 103,9 km
as stated, originates 6:15, 9 intermediate stops, arrives 7:35, trip time 1:20
Tamsalu-Tallinn 92,5 km
milk run from Tartu departs 7:37, 8 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 8:49, trip time 1:12
express from Tartu departs 8:28, 2 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 9:28, trip time 1:00
Türi-Tallinn 98,0 km
as stated, milk run originates 5:26, 16 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 7:04, trip time 1:38
as stated, express from Viljandi departs 7:16, 8 intermediate stops to Tallinn, arrives 8:43, trip time 1:27

Now, I figure that the travel times of the morning trains Cesis-Riga are 1:56 and 1:54. Even Türi-Tallinn, 98 km with 16 stops from Käru to Tallinn-Väike, does not take so long.
On the example of Tamsalu-Tallinn, an express train Cesis-Riga with 2 stops (Sigulda and Zemitani) should be doable in 1:00. 
Say that the express originates from Tartu in time to be usable to leave Tartu... say 6:30, after the milk run to Tallinn that left 6:19. Then this train should leave Cesis at 8:10, Sigulda at 8:35 and arrive at Riga at 9:10.

Would 9:10 arrival in Riga be any good for the people of Sigulda, Cesis, Valmiera (departure then 7:50) and Valka (departure 7:20)?


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## ArtManDoo (Aug 5, 2008)

I think that the main two reasons for rather slow average speed for LDZ locals are:
1. not very good technical capability of DR1A trains and rather big reserve time to make up the time lost when needed.
2. intensive freight traffic. To fit semi fast trains between freights, it needs great logistics and also good work from freight train drivers. The other more simple way is just give for local passenger trains same timings as they are for freights.

About Tartu - Riga service, it would be great. LDZ has shortage for disesls, GoRail in Estonia has surplus as the trains heading to Russia are empty and the Russian direction is for old people who still have some connections in Russia. Mid generation and younger people need Tallinn - Tartu - Riga service, Russian direction is pointless for most of them. Train arriving to Riaga at 9:10 or 8:50 would be useful for commuters also.


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## Valvejoodik (Jul 29, 2012)

Shouldn't most cargo be running during the night?


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ In Latvia, no, I doubt it. Their cargo volumes are way higher than in Estonia, they couldn't manage it with running only at night. Even in Estonia there used to be plenty of daytime freight trains. Only with new passenger trains and more dense schedules have they disappeared on some lines (e.g. freight trains only run at night on Tallinn-Paldiski line).


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## ArtManDoo (Aug 5, 2008)

Cargo is sent out as soon as there is enough time to get it into next stopping point after the train is ready (coupled and breaks tested). No matter day or night. In Baltics there are just some few freight trains that must follow certain schedule.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ There is a schedule for freight trains as well. They don't just go whenever. You can see the schedules for Eesti Raudtee here


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## ArtManDoo (Aug 5, 2008)

If the infrastructure throughput is shared then they use this graph as proof or something like that for see that every operator really has the slot's agreed. If to go lineside then can be seen that passengers and only some freights go by the schedule. Reality is that when train crosses border into Valga station for example then it continues as soon as border operations are complete, train is ready to move and the track is free to go. In Estonia there is only Tallinn - Paldiski line where freights more less follow the schedule, it is because of intensive passenger traffic. Due to more passenger traffic now, also on other directions the freights may follow the schedule given a bit more than it used to be.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...sia-gorail-services-to-cease.html?channel=537
> 
> *Estonia – Russia GoRail services to cease*
> Tuesday, April 14, 2015
> ...


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Why is there such a decrease in travel between the countries?


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## ArtManDoo (Aug 5, 2008)

Actually it has never been high, except during the Russian occupation time. Until 2013 Edelaruadtee served all national diesel services in Estonia and as GoRail belonging to the same business group with Edelaraudtee it was possible to cross subsidize the cross border trains. It is not very clear why GoRail kept running the non profitable international services heading east, some think it was because of some "dark" fuel and smoke business. And of course latest situation in Russia has it's influence on it too.

Now we need international connections to the Europe as we had before, hopefully Rail Baltica will bring some.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Does that mean that Estonia will be totally without cross-border passenger rail connection at all ? Or is there anything left ?


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Eesti Raudtee, the state company which owns the railway infrastructure is hoping to reach a deal with Russian railways so that they would start operating the Tallinn-Moscow train. It would be hauled on the Estonian side with Estonian locos and Eesti Raudtee would pay the bill.

So there is still hope that Tallinn-Moscow train service will continue, although Tallinn - St. Petersburg is probably a lost cause at this point.

There is too much risk and politics involved for any private company to invest in that connection.



Nexis said:


> Why is there such a decrease in travel between the countries?


The ruble dropped a lot in value last year which makes travelling to Europe quite expensive. The political situation also plays a role: travelling to the Baltics is not seen as a good sign in Russia.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Out of interest I checked flight and there is only one per day left between Tallinn and St Petersburg and not cheap either (cheaper is via Riga). Probably a bus or two per day as well, but all that indicates indeed that demand is very low.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Tallinn - Moscow service to take one hour less from 29 May 2016

http://eng.rzd.ru/newse/public/en?S...refererLayerId=3920&refererPageId=4&id=106840


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Something a bit different for a change. Video of the oil shale railway from Musta to Ahtme by YT user diiselrong. I mapped the route here (East to West): https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...E&ll=59.2757815386889,27.925140523071263&z=12 





For those that don't know, there is a freight rail network in the northeastern part of Estonia for the sole purpose of transporting oil shale from the mines to the power plants. It's connected to the Tallinn-Narva-St.Petersburg railway but other trains don't use this network (apart from special cases). Between 1993 and 2007 there was a special passenger train transporting workers from Jõhvi and Ahtme to the mines.


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

_RvR_ said:


> *Stadler DMU, Harju County, Tallinn-Baltiyskaya station. 28.01.2018.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you have an typo, as 1403 is still an EMU to my knowledge 
But I think the station is "Lilleküla" :cheers:

(I haven't ever notice anybody referring to Baltic station/Balti jaam as "Tallinn-Baltiyskaya", probably a Russian thing? )


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

_RvR_ said:


> True. I didn't notice the overhead wires... Sorry.


No worries, everyone makes mistakes :cheers:


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

_RvR_ said:


> Sure. I know that there is the same DMU like this EMU. I've made a mistake since the majority of Estonian railroads is not electrified.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure if you were aware of it, but here is a simple tip to everyone: There's a simple logic to tell which train is an DMU or an EMU. The train numbers, the white 4-digit code on the trains, where the first number tells if it's an EMU (1) or an DMU (2), the second digit shows the number of carriages either 2, 3 or 4 (which doesn't include the DMU's "power pack" ) and the last two digits should be the serial/prodution number for Estonia, common numeration for both DMU's and EMU's :cheers:

For example, the unit in the picture is the 25th train for Estonia which is an 4-car DMU


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

_RvR_ said:


> True. I didn't notice the overhead wires... Sorry.


It's not the wires, it's the contact apparatus that needed noticing...


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

chornedsnorkack said:


> It's not the wires, it's the contact apparatus that needed noticing...


yeah, but even that can be hard to find and it's even harder to tell apart a DMU and EMU running under catenary on a random picture 

Actually pictures of a DMU and a EMU from the same place/angle could be used as really good game of "Find x amount of differences" :lol: :lol:


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## Anticalaca (Jul 21, 2013)

Beautiful trains, indeed.


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## Valvejoodik (Jul 29, 2012)

Paint scheme was actually very nice. But I guess free Estonia wanted to get rid of everything that resembled soviet red colors


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## Anticalaca (Jul 21, 2013)

_RvR_ said:


> Estonia doesn't use them any more. Some of them were sold to Kazakhstan, others were scrapped and the rest is not operational.


A pity, then. They could have 'modernize' them. You did publish nice examples in other threads. 

But, the Stadlers are a great improvment, thought.


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## Valvejoodik (Jul 29, 2012)

Anticalaca said:


> A pity, then. They could have 'modernize' them. You did publish nice examples in other threads.
> 
> But, the Stadlers are a great improvment, thought.


The "modernized" DRs were sent to Kazakhstan where the local news referred to them as "New European technology"

I guess one man's garbage is another man's gold indeed :banana:


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## Anticalaca (Jul 21, 2013)

Valvejoodik said:


> The "modernized" DRs were sent to Kazakhstan where the local news referred to them as "New European technology"
> 
> I guess one man's garbage is another man's gold indeed :banana:


Yep, thats curious, givin the fact that Kazakhstan has brand new trains in most of their transport projects (the new ones came mostly from China, for what i saw).


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## Valvejoodik (Jul 29, 2012)

How the hell can't some people see big incoming orange thing? And not even bothering to slow down at the crossing...


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## Valvejoodik (Jul 29, 2012)

It's a road with quite low traffic density, therefore there is no lights/boom. And in Estonia we don't use any ramps (those things that are really common in Russia?) if I understand you correctly.

There is though a Stop sign on the crossing that the truck drived decided to ignore to the fullest. "MY GOODS NEED TO BE DELIVERED FAAAAAAST!!!!"


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## Anticalaca (Jul 21, 2013)

Valvejoodik said:


> How the hell can't some people see big incoming orange thing? And not even bothering to slow down at the crossing...


Nooo, what did they do with that Stadler :bash::bash::bash:

Hope no one got hurt.


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## Anticalaca (Jul 21, 2013)

My bad, it looks that is a Pesa (a polish train manufacturer), right?


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Anticalaca said:


> Nooo, what did they do with that Stadler :bash::bash::bash:
> 
> Hope no one got hurt.





Anticalaca said:


> My bad, it looks that is a Pesa (a polish train manufacturer), right?


I feel sorry to the train too, drunk drivers are a menace (truck driver was driving under the influence) but it is still a Stadler FLIRT EMU...  

Luckily only 9 people were injured, with the train driver and truck driver having more serious injuries and by latest news only the truck driver remains in hospital.


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## Valvejoodik (Jul 29, 2012)

If you're bored, then here's a live video about lifting the train back to the tracks: https://majandus24.postimees.ee/441...269.937250753.1518981636-973964198.1469954044
(happening right now)


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## -III- (Jun 2, 2018)

> *Estonian signalling contract awarded*
> 
> ESTONIA: Mipro has been awarded a contract to resignal the Lääne-Harju line running west from Tallinn by the end of 2021.
> 
> ...


link


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Wow this thread is so dodo  But 1 year post delay is good for savouring stuff,lol.

Here's whats been going on meanwhile:

Eesti Raudtee (EVR,to keep things short) is upgrading East and West bound lines to 140km/h
Mipro Oy is building new signalling system on entire Westbound rail network
EVR is planning to upgrade single track sections between Tallinn and Keila (town in Tallinn metro area) to double track in either next year or in 2021. 
Go Track is rebuilding section of dismantled Tallinn-Haapsalu line (more on that in next few posts) from Riisipere to Turba. Prime minister has acknowledged need to rebuild further sections or whole line but so far no funds have been allocated to it.
EVR is gonna build new railway viaduct in Tallinn and add more platforms to Tallinn Central Station to improve capacity. Constructions should start around 2021.
Elron is buying 6 new dual mode electric trains. Procurement is being prepared atm. Will know more about it in late autumn.
Government has drafted plans to electrify most existing lines by 2028. Those will be 25 kV AC,which is contrast to existing 3 kV DC electric railways in use today. Btw hence the dual mode on new trains being bought atm
And of course multinational Rail Baltic project still drags on slowly.


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Video from yesterday's event.



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=210681574387490


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Some Stadler FLIRT action in Tallinn:





Video by Youtube user diiselrong. Check out his channel as well!


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