# MISC | Train Control



## DrT (Jun 24, 2005)

How prevalent is this safety measure used in Europe?

Only 2 or 3% of track in the US is covered.
Our RR companies say it is untested and too expensive.

Any thoughts?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

"The European Train Control System (ETCS) is a signalling, control and train protection system designed to replace the many incompatible safety systems currently used by European railways, especially on high-speed lines."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETCS


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## arriaca (Feb 28, 2006)

*Spain*

Red TOTAL: 13.117,63 Km

ERTMS / ETCS : 

Madrid - Barcelona 621 km 

Madrid - Valladolid 180 km

Zaragoza - Huesca 22 km

LZB:

Madrid - Sevilla 471 km

Córdoba - Málaga 155 km

ERTMS + LZB

Toledo - La Sagra 21 km

11,37 %


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

The first ever ETCS was built on the Budapest-Hegyeshalom(Vienna line)-178 km


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

In the UK we have semi-positive train control - in most areas you can't really drive a train by accident through a red light by means of AWS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Warning_System, although the driver can override it. It covers basically the entire network. It's not by any means failsafe though



> Disadvantages
> 
> Because it was developed before multiple-aspect signalling became widespread, AWS can only indicate whether a signal is "Green" or "not Green". Even though a multiple-aspect signal can display three or four aspects, AWS has only two states.
> 
> AWS is an advisory system, and can be easily overridden by habituated reactions of the driver, especially when he/she is proceeding at speed under a series of "double yellow" signals which indicate a signal at 'danger' two sections ahead. This has led to a number of fatal accidents. Also, there is no compulsory stop when a red signal is passed. The newer TPWS, which operates at certain stop signals and on the approach to some speed restrictions and buffer stops, overcomes some of these problems.


TPWS is better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_Protection_&_Warning_System.

Neither of them are fully protective, and Network Rail intends to upgrade most of the network to in cab signallin using the european system ETCS level 2 or 3. How this is going to work hasn't been fully thrashed out yet, but its being tested on a rural line in Wales.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

In the Netherlands only some museum, freight lines don't have an automatic protection system. Since 2006 all lines with speeds exceeding 40 km/h should've been equiped with a protection system, this has been done except for the border lines to Belgium.

Most lines are equipped with the Dutch ATB system. The problem with this system is that it only works over 40 km/h, this has caused some accidents especially close to stations. 

The new freightline "Betuwe Route" from the harbor in Rotterdam to Germany has ERTMS / ETCS level 2 in operation. On the new high speed line HSL Zuid from Amsterdam to Antwerp (Belgium) it's also installed and will be used when the lines goes into operation (hopefully later this year). And the first old line that will be equiped with ERTMS / ETCS level 2 is the Amsterdam - Utrecht line.


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## vickyxu (Sep 23, 2008)

Safty of the people should be the foucs of the administration. If the economic condition allows, we should increase the safty of life.

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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Good Explanation of Train Control in the US and Canada ...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

I saw those videos before, but still watched them again because I forgot how they worked in the meantime (and they still remain confusing). 
At the end of part 2 I noticed that since yesterday there is also a part 3:


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## DingeZ (Mar 28, 2012)

The Netherlands had a pretty similar system that was designed in 1946. The actual used patterns were different, but the ideas the same. One big (but probably quite handy) difference was that the medium and slow signals had the speeds written on them. The medium and slow speeds of this signal are respectively 75km/h and 30km/h.









Had, as a new system was designed less than ten years later, in 1955. This system uses a light emitting number to show the speeds (minus the zero, so a 4 means 40km/h). It is still used today. A yellow + number means slow down to this speed. Flashing green + number means pass at this speed (no number=40km/h). This also replaced the double yellow or flashing yellow. If the distance is to short to come to a full stop between two signals, it is preceded with a yellow + number (usually 8). Here is an example of what 'pass at 80km/h' looks like:









What actually surprises me the most is that the US has switches for less than 40km/h(=25mph). The term 'high speed switch' (although some would say that there is no such thing) usually only applies to switches for over 120km/h(=75mph). Practically full speed.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

DingeZ said:


> What actually surprises me the most is that the US has switches for less than 40km/h(=25mph). The term 'high speed switch' (although some would say that there is no such thing) usually only applies to switches for over 120km/h(=75mph). Practically full speed.


In ex. USSR a 80 km/h switch is considered to be a fairly high speed one with most switches being 40-50 km/h ones. So diverging at 80 km/h has a different signal indication - a yellow and flashing green with 3 small horizontal greens instead of just a yellow and flashing yellow.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

DingeZ said:


> What actually surprises me the most is that the US has switches for less than 40km/h(=25mph).


I think it's actually the Netherlands being quite unique for not having switches for less than 40 km/h on main tracks. In the UK there are still plenty of 15 mph switches. In France the speed in yards and station approaches is usually limited to 30 km/h because of the switches. In Germany there are also several examples like the approach to Cologne from the Hohenzollern bridge is also 20 km/h to 30 km/h because of switches and the tight curve.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

M-NL said:


> I think it's actually the Netherlands being quite unique for not having switches for less than 40 km/h on main tracks.


Not totally unique as this is the case for Belgium too. And the trend is to go
even higher : normally now everywhere it is possible, switches for diverging
at 60 km/h are used - not always possible because they are longer. But for
liaisons between main tracks (used to switch to and from "wrong main") this
is the norm now. And there are quite many of those, as the entire belgian
network is now "bi-directional".


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

That's an interesting discussion in itself: Pretty much the entire Netherlands (all?) is bi-directional ("double single track") as well. This does have some consequences: This bi-directional capability makes the signalling more complicated and requires that trains are run on the 'wrong track' at least every few days to function test the signalling. Also all the cross-over switches must be used at least once every day, to prevent malfunctions in the train detection loops because of rust the tracks ("roestrijden" usually done by freight trains at night).

Japan has chosen to stick with uni-directional signalling ("double track"), because they estimated they rarely need the feature, it costs extra to implement and makes the signalling more complicated.

Contrary to the past, where you could take one track out of service for maintenance or during accidents and still use the other one, this practice is not allowed any more in the Netherlands. In those cases all adjacent tracks must be put out of service as well. In case of a signalling malfunction usually both tracks are affected as well.

So in a lot of cases I ask: Why would you still implement something you almost never use?


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

M-NL said:


> So in a lot of cases I ask: Why would you still implement something you almost never use?


If that wasn't western Europe, I would say it's because of _otkat_. But since it is western Europe, there must be some thought underneath all that signaling.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

M-NL said:


> So in a lot of cases I ask: Why would you still implement something you almost never use?


In Belgium we still can keep a track open for traffic when works are taking 
place on the adjacent track, provided adequate security measures are in place
to prevent accidents with the workers on site. For example between 
Namur and Arlon the line now is being re-built and there are 4 sections where 
one track is taken out of service for weeks, and the other one shared for 
both directions.

Also, the bi-directional signalling is also heavily used to make a fast train
overtake a slower one, let two trains depart a station at the same time,
overtake a broken-down train, and other things like that.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

M-NL said:


> Japan has chosen to stick with uni-directional signalling ("double track"), because they estimated they rarely need the feature, it costs extra to implement and makes the signalling more complicated.


As far as I know, this is only true on their high-speed network, and it is not
for cost reasons, but simply because their traffic density is so high, it would
not be possible to establish a single track service anyway.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

M-NL said:


> all the cross-over switches must be used at least once every day, to prevent malfunctions in the train detection loops because of rust the tracks ("roestrijden" usually done by freight trains at night).


What is done to prevent this on railway lines with just 1 or less trains per day?


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

In Spain the majority (sorry no more accurate data) of double track sections are bi-directional. Serve for incidents and to increase the capacity for maintaining of one of the tracks. 
No need to do any checking or changing the direction of the regular circulation. 

In the HSR Madrid-Sevilla maintenance is done without trains, so although it was bi-directional, the facilities were not complete and did not allow the circulation in the same conditions. This did not prevent that, initially, when you could not drive in double, two trains to depart at once each by a track. Currently he is completely bi-directional (with preferred driving on the right) as well as the rest of the HSR.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

M-NL said:


> I think it's actually the Netherlands being quite unique for not having switches for less than 40 km/h on main tracks. In the UK there are still plenty of 15 mph switches. In France the speed in yards and station approaches is usually limited to 30 km/h because of the switches. In Germany there are also several examples like the approach to Cologne from the Hohenzollern bridge is also 20 km/h to 30 km/h because of switches and the tight curve.


Actually, 1520 mm are also not known for low speed switches - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_switch#Turnout_speeds


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## BriedisUnIzlietne (Dec 16, 2012)

XAN_ said:


> Actually, 1520 mm are also not known for low speed switches - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_switch#Turnout_speeds


BTW Would I be correct saying that all the 1520mm switches are identical to allow cheaper maintenance? I've never seen any unique pieces like curved track switches, curved diamonds or three way turnouts like there are in Britain. And only double-slip switches even if only one of the slip routes are ever used.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> What is done to prevent this on railway lines with just 1 or less trains per day?


Lines with such limited traffic will only have one track, usually, which means
all turnouts will systematically be used. Furthermore, those lines might even
not have track circuits at all, in that case rust is not a problem.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

MarcVD said:


> As far as I know, this is only true on their high-speed network, and it is not for cost reasons, but simply because their traffic density is so high, it would not be possible to establish a single track service anyway.


Pretty much the entire narrow gauge network is signalled as true double track as well for the same reason. You can also clearly see this when you watch Japanese cab videos. 

This is also exactly the reason I don't understand why the Netherlands hasn't done the same. On most sections in the Netherlands it wouldn't be possible to maintain proper service on a single track either, so why create the possibility in the first place? Creating and maintaining the signalling is expensive enough, they should keep it as simple as possible.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

An old video about British Railway Signaling


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Some Railway Signals along the RiverLINE Tram Train


RiverLine at Riverside Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


RiverLine Signals at Riverside Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


RiverLine Signals at Riverside Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


RiverLine Signals at Riverside Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


Faint Green RiverLine Signal at Riverside Station by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

Main Line Signals


Eastbound New Jersey Transit Atlantic City train # 4628 appoarching at Pennsauken Transit Center by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

PRR Signals at Trenton


Northeast Corridor at Trenton Transit Center by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


Northeast Corridor at Trenton Transit Center by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


Elevated Dwarf Signal at Trenton by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

The Snow & LED signals do not mix well


Problem With LED's by Familymansystem, on Flickr


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Even though the 'old' incandescent lamps may emit a lot more heat, I doubt that that would be enough to keep the signal free of snow. Another argument to switch to full in cab signalling.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ Yes, they would. As long as the glass covering the lamp is warmer than 0C - and it's much hotter than that with incadescent lamps - the snow will melt and/or not stick to the surface. 

Think of it this way: if you're driving in a blizzard, your windscreen won't be covered in a thick layer of snow because it will melt.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

The last remaining semaphores on a US MainLine in New Mexico


Clear by rovertrain, on Flickr


Through the Blades by rovertrain, on Flickr


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

some more American Signaling...


A Punctual 'Capitol' at Dunlap by Jonathan Lee, on Flickr


Clear, CP 507 by Jonathan Lee, on Flickr


5.22.15 by Doug Ensel, on Flickr


Stop, Stop, Approach by Jonathan Lee, on Flickr


Streaks and Indications by Jonathan Lee, on Flickr


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

A good detailed video on British Railway Signaling...it is in Train Simulator...but seems to cover all the key points.


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## imad_dudin (Aug 24, 2015)

nice


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ Yes, they would. As long as the glass covering the lamp is warmer than 0C - and it's much hotter than that with incadescent lamps - the snow will melt and/or not stick to the surface.
> 
> Think of it this way: if you're driving in a blizzard, your windscreen won't be covered in a thick layer of snow because it will melt.


I wonder why can't they channel the heat emitted by the LED drive to the lens. High power LED bulbs such as ones for automobile headlight and household lighting generate a lot of heat and need large heat sinks to dissipate the heat. Touching the heat sink on my own 8W (60W equivalent) LED bulb it felt like touching an incandescent one. I'm sure if they run a thin wire mesh on the lens to the LED drive it'll be sufficient to melt the snow.


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## saurabh.raut1 (Sep 14, 2014)

*Amazing Cabin Ride Of A Mumbai Local Train...!!! Siemens EMU.!!*






~Video Taken Under Proper Authorised Permissions~

Inside the Driver Cabin Of Siemens EMU, in General, The Mumbai Local...

Featuring The Coverage Of Control pannel, Crossings, Overtakes, And Some Significant places on Mumbai Suburban line as well..

The Video begins with Video of Mumbai Rajdhani Express from taken a location like never before, from the Driver view of Local train..!!!

Video features crossing from several well known locations such aa The New Oshiwara Station, EMU Carshed Virar, Bhayandar Creek, Naigaon curve. Crossing Another Siemens as well as Bombardier local on Various locations. Overtake of My EMU by another Siemens EMU, Parallel Chase with Sayaji Nagari Express and a Weekly Duronto Express..!!!

Video Features A Instrument Fitted inside the Cabin, Called AWS, Or the Auxiliary Warning System, used for Safety purpose under Overspeeding and Overshooting Cases.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*SEPTA - Positive Train Control (PTC)*


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Trackside signaling common on the Metro North Railroad


Trackside Signaling by Corey Best, on Flickr


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## saurabh.raut1 (Sep 14, 2014)

*Amazing Cabin Ride of Mumbai Local..!! Bombardier Rake..!! The Fastest EMU*






~Video Taken Under Proper Permissions~

Inside the Driver Cabin Of Bombardier EMU,in short, Mumbai's New local...

The 300th Video on my YouTube Channel..

The whole video is divide into 2 parts. Of which, the first video features the Coverage of some stations and places on Outer Suburban line of Virar - Dahanu Road.. 

The Video begins with a Bombardier Local train crossing Bombardier local train taken from a location like never before, from the Driver view of Local train..!!!

The part 1 Video features the cabin ride covers Boisar and Umroli Railway Station , Palghar Sidings entry, Kelve Road and Saphale Station entries, The 2 Bridges over the river Vaitarna and some Crossings...!!!

Video also shows an Instrument Fitted inside the Cabin, called A.W.S., or the Auxiliary Warning System, Manufactured by Siemens, used for Safety purpose under Over-speeding and Overshooting Cases.







Part 2 covers the Entry in Virar station, shipping some suburban stations like Nallasopara, Naigaon, Mira Road and Dahisar, some Crossings, overtakes and Finally, the comparison of Ulysses Speedometer with the train speedometer 

I had kept my Phone GPS Speedometer besides the digital display to compare the Phone speedometer with the train meter. 
For obvious reasons, Motormen are not allowed to use their phones during the duty except during the emergency cases like accidents.

No need to skip the video forward since the boring section is already been omitted and useful and informative part is only which is kept.

P.S.: Thanks to the polite Motorman who let me take the cabin ride AFTER taking assurance that I won't disturb his work as well as won't interfere any discussion with the Train mechanic present inside the cabin. 

More Cabin Rides:

Siemens EMU Local: https://youtu.be/g_hYq5-CRgI
WCAM1 Locomotive: https://youtu.be/QtTBSROUz7c
WAP7 Locomotive Part 1: https://youtu.be/8jIPOjgzL7c
WAP7 Locomotive Part 2: https://youtu.be/9NKpnoiSJcI

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