# England of the Industrial Revolution



## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

This is a trip report by an American on his travels across some northern English cities in mid October 2011 to see the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution and visit museums pertaining to England’s industrial heritage.

My itinerary was flying in to Manchester but immediately travelling to Liverpool to visit that city. Then I traveled back to Manchester and on to Leeds and Sheffield taking in some other small towns. Finally I travelled to York and Durham. 

The pictures will be presented in the order that I took them and there are therefore pictures of the same sites in different parts of this report. I will also try to add as much explanation as possible so that the viewer will understand what they are seeing. Note that I am not a good photographer and I only had a cheap point and shoot camera so don’t expect pictures with high artistic value. I simply hope they can give a sense of what the places are like.

All in all England is a spectacular country and I had a fantastic vacation. It vastly exceeded my already high expectations. I want to thank all those in the UK Skybar who helped plan this trip and make it so special. And special mention goes to Paul who not only gave me invaluable advice but gave me a guided tour of Liverpool one day. Thank you all so much!!

To start we have the Lime Street train station where I arrived by train from the Manchester airport:


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This was a high speed train by Virgin - apparently they do more than just airlines and music. I never road a special high speed train in England, just regular trains between cities. But I was simply amazed at how good their rail system was. Trains seemed to depart to all destinations very frequently meaning that I never had to look at a schedule the whole time I was there. Also, the regular trains were quite fast - I think they were going at least 100 miles per hour. The only drawback - not enough room to store luggage.


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When you first walk out the front of the Lime Street station this is what faces you:


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Certainly not the classical or Victorian England one might expect. Still, for me it was love at first site in Liverpool. In what is to come I think you’ll see why.

Immediately to the right you see this:


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Looking at back at the station:


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As I was to learn the saying above “In England but not of it” is very much how Liverpool seems to see itself, even today. Due to its international ties through seafaring and trade and its large scale Irish immigration it probably sees itself as less English than many other places.

At first I was completely lost and just wandering, trying to make my way to the radio tower so I could go up it and try to get an over view of the city which would orient me:


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Even in this picture you can see a little of what really took me by surprise - how vibrant English cities are. In the town center (downtown) of the overwhelming majority American cities you see no one around other than during work hours on weekdays. Central Liverpool was packed with people (this was a Saturday) and even though the weather was grey the atmosphere was most certainly not.

On top:

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There were two drawbacks to the radio tower - 1) it is an active radio studio and you can’t walk all the way around it so you only get a 180 degree view, not 360 degrees. Also, they apparently never wash their windows and with all the dirt it was almost impossible to get decent pictures.

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The building slightly left of center with the columns is St. George’s Hall. It was a very interesting building that was a combination court house, prison, and grand public events hall. Liverpool needed all three of those things but didn’t have the money for it so they combined them into one building. The prison is now a very good museum showing graphically the sometimes hellish conditions of Victorian life for the poor and downtrodden. I highly recommend it. I will have some interior pictures later.


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I have no idea which particular arcade or shopping area that was. There are two man of them to keep track of.


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The radio tower viewed from below:


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Now I set off trying to make my way to the waterfront and the famous Albert Docks (thinking that is the real center of Liverpool live, which it is clearly not):


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The streets were just packed with people.


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Some sort of inscriptions dedicated to water:


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There were a good number of young people in costumes doing fund raising for some sort of charity (hopefully not themselves):


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Old fashioned cabs are still quite common:


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All the cities I visited had signs like these. 80% of the time they were quite helpful. 20% of the time they only served to make you more lost.


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This is the gate from the old seamans home which had been demolished many years ago. Note the bird on the top is a “Liver” bird and is the symbol of Liverpool. I never got a straight answer on what exactly the bird was or even if it ever really existed.


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Holy cow, they really do use double decker buses. And I always thought it was some touristy gimmick of London (and that they were always red). But they are real and are used all over. An inexpensive way to get a good tour of an English city: buy a day pass for the bus and just ride the double decker busses all over, riding on the top at the very front from which you get a spectacular view.

I finally made it to the Albert dock. Note the canal boats, or barges as they are called in England. Little did I realize I would be seeing those everywhere in England.


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I found the old and the new in Liverpool to go together quite nicely.

Didn’t do this tour:


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Not sure exactly what this “Pumphouse” was pumping for before but now it is an eatery, and a rather expensive one.


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This is inside the Albert dock. Notice how the ground floor is set back to make room for loading and unloading while above it they build the structure to maximize wharehouse space.

The water is actually part of the dock system and it is called a Quay (pronounced “key”). It is essentially a wet dock that holds the water there at the level of high tide at all times so that boats can load and unload without being effected by the tides. I’ll explain that further later but the Quays are actually the central structure in Liverpool. Without their invention Liverpool could never have become a major port.


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Looks a lot like Elvis but isn’t.


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A statue donated by the Mormon church to honor all the families who emmigrated from Europe to the New World via Liverpool. 


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The above gate is what seperates the Quay from the river Mersey. The Mersey is a tidal estuary at this point and rises and falls quite dramatically with the tides. We will see evidence of that later. However, the dramatic tides would leave ships stuck on dry land when they went out and would tip them over making it impossible to load or unload their cargoes. The very clever remedy was to build these Quays which would be open to the Mersey at high tide and fill with water. Before the tide goes out the gates are shut trapping the water inside the Quay at the level of high tide and allowing the boats to stay upright and move around to be easily loaded and unloaded. Only when the tide was in and the gates could be opened did ships enter and leave the Quays. The docks and wharehouses surrounded the Quays.

This ingenious system of wet docks, or Quays, is what made Liverpool the great port that it was. Clever little bastards, those Liverpudlians.


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You can see from the water line here how much the tide drops. And this wasn’t even low tide.


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Not sure what these were but they were all over Liverpool:


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England has fought a lot of wars so there are war memorials everywhere:


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There are three spectacular buildings along the water front that are known as the “Three Graces” - this is the first of them:


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The very worthwhile but only partially open Museum of Liverpool:


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A canal connecting the Liverpool - Leeds canal to some of the Quays. As I was to discover, England has a mind blowing canal system:


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Very rarely in England do you see the Union Jack. This car was an exception.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

*day one in Liverpool continued...*


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One of the Three Graces, The Cunard Building:


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The Liver Building:


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I then decided to walk back towards the city center to get out of the wind (and find a desperately needed bathroom):


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A couple of blocks in and I started to hear the fifes and drums of a parade. And sure enough there was a big parade coming my way:


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The British are really to wearing flourescent colors when they want to be more visible. All the police officer, emergency vehicles and even bicyclists wear them. Note they even put them on the horses!


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As you can see it was an Irish nationalist march commemerating the death of the hunger strikers who died in British prisons in the early 80s. Again, Liverpool has a large Irish population.


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It was a very disciplined para-military type march with really good marshal music. Too bad I didn’t video tape it.


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Not exactly sure how Che winds up on an Irish banner.


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WTF, I thought kilts where Scottish? That is the strange thing about the people on the British isles. They often claim they don’t like each other yet they are always copying each other (and isn’t that the sincerest form of flattery?).


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This was following the marchers. The police seem to have lots of vehicles dedicated solely to video taping people. I saw more than a view throughout my trip. And there were signs all over the place saying “smile, you are being video taped”. Obviously the ACLU is not very active in Britain 


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Once the parade passed I was able to explore the area around the Town Hall which was when I first realized how spectacular the architecture was that I was going to see.


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This is the Town Hall. It is a spectacular building and to me the aging given it by the sootiness of the stonework only adds to its appeal:


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Unfortunately it was not open for tours. They only do tours in the peak tourist season. They do however rent its main room out for weddings in case you are about to tie the knot:


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For a time I was paralyzed and couldn’t decide in which direction to walk as the buildings were so spectacular in every direction:


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Without even realizing it existed I then stumbled up a large modern semi-covered shopping mall in the center of Liverpool - Liverpool One:


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Its a very busy place and seems very nicely integrated into the heart of the city


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Two things I noticed about British retail stores though: 1) they tend to close early - whereas stores in the US are open until at least 8 or 9 pm in England the stores seemed to start closing at 6 and where fully closed by 7 pm (even Starbucks!!) 2) many of them don’t open at all on Sundays. I think that is what accounted for the crowds on the Saturday I arrived - that is the main day of the week that people can shop in England.


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Looking at all these buildings it is pretty apparent that Liverpool was doing ok for itself in Victorian times, isn’t it?


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I finally made my way back to the Lime Street Station area and went into St. George’s Hall. The old prison area was an amazing museum but too dark for pictures. However, I did get some pictures of the main room where they were having some sort of a market that day (it was also dark hence the pictures aren’t the greatest:


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This is a drawing there of the ships in the 19th century in the Quays. I was told they really were packed in that tightly.


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Never did figure out what was in this very large and very grand old building right next to the train station:


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After 4 or 5 hours I had come full circle:


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## Bristol Mike (Aug 5, 2007)

Fantastic pictures there - looks like you did a very commendable tour considering the time you had and the weather with which you were greeted!

Look forward to Manchester.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm glad that you enjoyed Liverpool; but I know that you have, yet, many more pictures to share.

Shame about the weather!

Yes, shops close at 6pm, except in Liverpool One - where they close at 8pm, and 10pm on Thursdays.

Saturday is always a, hugely, crowded day in Liverpool - as I expect that it is in most other British cities.

People *do* go into their city centres in British cities - with the exception of London, maybe - because it is so large that people tend to centre themselves around their own neighbourhoods; more atomised in that way!


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

I am jealous of your marvelous visit to Liverpool.:cheers:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

*Liverpool Day 1 continued....*

I then decided to walk to the main Anglican Cathedral in the hopes of maybe going up its tower before dusk came


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The entrance to Liverpool’s China Town which given that New York has a large Chinatown I didn’t bother to explore:


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Finally, I arrived at the Anglican Cathederal which is supposed to be one of the largest cathederals in the world:


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Some very nice and stately looking row houses next to the Cathederal:


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No pictures can do it justice but here are some from inside:


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I decided not to go up the tower but instead explore the interesting looking church cementary:


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The walk down along side the cathederal to the cementary was lined with tombstones - many of them quite moving with long lists of children and others dieing at a very young age:


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I never did get the exact story of the cementary but apparently it is NOT affiliated with the cathederal and is actually situated in an old stone quarry, which is why it is so far below street level. It also turns out that the very first person to be run over and killed by a train is buried here but I only found that out later so that picture is from my later visit and will be shown later.


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I then walked back to the center of the city and got a train out to Aigburth which is a section of southern Liverpool. I would be CouchSurfing in someones home and that is where they live, so this would give me an view of somewhat typical Liverpool neighborhood


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This is Aigburth. Note it is almost all row houses or semi detached homes. Fully detached single family homes seem quite rare in England. They do exist and I even stayed in one in Sheffield but they are clearly a small portion of England’s housing stock


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I went out and had some drinks at a local bar with my host and that was it for day one. What a day!!!!


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

The houses in the photo above are Edwardian arts and crafts style houses - they have lovely original features. In fact, those houses are just a brief walk away from my own home.

'Row' houses, as you refer to them, are called 'terraced' houses in Britain.

You are right that probably most homes in Britain, are either terraced or semi-detached - but if you go to more middle-class or wealthy or, certainly, less urban areas, then you will find more detached housing.

We do not have the luxury of space, as you do in the U.S - also raw materials are so much more expensive; and housing equally so.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Egads, some of the Flickr pictures at the end from Aigburth aren't coming through for me - don't know why

@openlyJane:

Yes, I realize England has huge space constraints. I was amazed at how compact the cities were and how close together they are. In the US Manchester and Liverpool would probably be considered one metropolitan area.

However, I think the space limitations actually help keep their cities livable. They can't just abandon them as is done in the US where people always want to live in new homes and ever further out from the urban core. This vitality from lack of space makes British cities seem much bigger than they are. Liverpool metro is about 1 million people I think yet to find an American city with such vitality in its core you have to go to metro areas with at least 5 million people, sometimes even more than that (Houston is around 6 million I think and completely dead after 5 pm)


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## YingBlanc (May 30, 2010)

All this makes me proud to be British, never been to Liverpool myself. Fun little fact, the liver building isn't pronounced like Liverpool, the locals call it more Lie-ver building. Anyways can't wait to see more, you come my way through Yorkshire? Let me tell you York is an awesome place for old architecture, and Where I am Bradford, Especially the Saltaire area, it's a UNESCO world heritage site you know, Worth visiting the Andy Warhol Museum somewhere there. Anyway the Bradford district might be right up your alley if your in progress of doing it or if you've already done pop over next trip you do here ^_^ Can't wait to see more of your trip through Britain.


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

The vast space in the US is a blessing & a curse. Room for big houses & lawns, but neighborhoods, towns & cities abandoned like old socks. We have squandered our wealth and are left with cities that shame us.hno: 

Sorry, enough about our bad habits in the US.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Yup, I made it through Yorkshire. Unfortunately didn't hit Bradford (wanted to go to the industrial museum there but not enough time) but I did go to the industrial museum in Armsley Mills in Leeds. I also visited Saltaire and went to the National Coal Mining Museum of England (one of the best things I did on the trip). Pictures of all that will be forthcoming.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

*Liverpool Day 2*

On my second day in Liverpool I took walked over to the Aigburth train station to go back to the city center:


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I could have gotten into town quickly except I missed the first train because I failed to realize that British trains run on the left, just as their cars do. I finally figured that out and crossed over to the correct track:


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This Merseyside rail was quite good and convenient. They had electronic signs saying when the trains would arrive. Also, it was a hybrid between a subway and a suburban rail system. The trains were generally 3 or 4 cars long and seating was front and back facing train style seating rather than side facing subway style seating.

A statue of some famous Liverpudlians in the Lime Street Station:


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One neat thing they did was paint on the street at intersections which way you should look for oncoming cars. Given that the left side of the street driving really through me off (I really did almost get hit by cars a few times) it was the only thing that kept me from getting an inside look at their NHS:


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I met up with Paul of Skyscrapercity who had agreed to spend a day showing me around town. As soon as we met we were off to what I had really come so far for (and no, it wasn’t the Beatles):


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I love the aging of the brick. To me, aside from the sheer size of the structure, it is what makes the building. You’ll see in pictures of the Albert Docks (some of which are already posted and others yet to come) that they clearly sandblasted and completely restored the brick work to make it look brand new. I am not a fan of that. You only know the Albert Docks is old because they tell you it is - looking at it it could have been built yesterday. But there is no escaping the authenticity of the Tobacco Warehouses. I hope the building does some day get put back into use but when it is I hope they leave the facade as it is. This building has aged beautifully!!!


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Then we walked across the street and looked at what was the beginning of the Liverpool-Leeds Canal which I am told actually winds up going fully across England. I certainly did see for myself that it goes as far as Leeds.


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So here we go with what makes English canals so spectacular - the original canals all still exist and are operational with working, hand operated locks!! Note these locks doors are opened by hand - ie simply pushing against them. The sluice gates to let water in or out of a closed lock are also hand operated. This is how it was on the old Erie Canal that traversed New York State. Yet I had only ever seen these locks in drawings of the old Erie Canal as they were wiped out in the early 20th Century when the Erie Canal was replaced by the larger Barge Canal. And here they were in real life in front of my face. What an unexpected bonus for my trip!!! :cheers:


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Nice brick work to help you keep your footing as you open and close the gates. Clever!!

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The viaduct is for the Merseyrail line which passes right by there. It must have spectacular views from the train but I was so busy the four days I spent in Liverpool I didn’t have time to ride it. Next time.


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Some Yank showing off in front of a lock  :cheers:


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No idea who maintains all these locks. They are ALL over the place there and they all seem in good condition. Must require lots of money and effort to keep them up.


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Be forwarned - any who doesn’t like to see pictures of canals can stop following this thread now as the whole time I was in England I was around canals and taking LOTS of pictures of them. :banana:


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I was told these homes along the canal were working class homes. Looked quite nice to me. 

ok, back to the Tobacco Warehouse:


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Note the watchtower built on to the side of the building!!


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I think this was the administration building:


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Notice the CCTV cameras. As I said they are everywhere. Orwell was right, at least about England.


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I believe I was told this was an 8 sided clock meant to be visible for anyone entering Liverpool, especially by ship. I believe there is only one other like it in the world, somewhere in Rusia.


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The rotted and unused gate to the Quay around which the warehouses were built:


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Than Paul drove me on a highway past the main container port (to bad there is no place to get pictures from of that!!) and to a park further out towards the sea on the Mersey. 


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Note all the windmills out in the Mersey. The tide is out (but coming in) but when it comes in it will cover most all of this beach.


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There are lots of these statues afixed to the beach. From a distance you really think they are people standing in the water.


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I’m the one on the left.


100_1416 by 600West218, on Flickr

Notice how even though the waves are breaking further out the land in front is wet. The ground is not all even (though you don’t realize that until some one points it out) so you can be standing on land that is a bit higher and above the tide while the water has actually already come in behind you. That happened a little bit to us and that is what is so dangerous and can get people into trouble with the tides.


100_1417 by 600West218, on Flickr
You can just make out a statue in this picture:


100_1419 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1420 by 600West218, on Flickr

In just a couple of minutes the tide had come in past the statue where I had took a picture.


100_1424 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Then Paul took me to the area nearby where the Captian of the Titanic lived and where the owner of the Whitestar Line lived.


100_1429 by 600West218, on Flickr


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This is the Captains home. Doesn’t look all that impressive but I guess in the early 1900’s it was.


100_1431 by 600West218, on Flickr



100_1433 by 600West218, on Flickr


Next we see where the owner of the Whitestar line lived. That was a very nice area:


100_1434 by 600West218, on Flickr


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I love the chimneys with the multiple pipes coming out of them. That is sooooo European 


100_1444 by 600West218, on Flickr

Then we went into the little town right there (actually I think it used to be a seperate town but is now a part of Liverpool though I can’t remember its name).


100_1445 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1446 by 600West218, on Flickr


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There is some new lottery that is meant to finance part of the NHS. A way of raising taxes on lower income people without saying you are raising their taxes - just like in the U.S.


100_1451 by 600West218, on Flickr

In an eatery there they had pictures of what the area used to be like and of the captian of the Titanic.


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## Darloeye (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi, Just been reading the other thread asking for information about the trip grad to see you enjoyed you're time in northern england, most people just go to london. Did you like Durham City and York ?


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## aarhusforever (Jun 15, 2010)

600West218 said:


> 100_1328 by 600West218, on Flickr
> QUOTE]
> 
> ^^ That is an awesome scary photo  I love the Anglican Cathederal. Thank you so much for sharing those beautiful and interesting photos.


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## cpwken (Sep 6, 2009)

> No idea who maintains all these locks. They are ALL over the place there and they all seem in good condition. Must require lots of money and effort to keep them up.


.

All English canals are owned by British Waterways, which is a "Public Corporation". I.e government owned but semi-independently run.

They very nearly did disappear. Commercially they started to decline after the arrival of the railways, and by the end of WW2 most were either completely derelict or at least in very poor repair, and commercial traffic was in its final deaththroes.

However, just in the nick of time campaigners started to argue against closure of the canals, and succeeded, to the extent that there's now about 2000 miles of navigable canals in the UK and they're recognised as a very important environmental and recreational asset.


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## Crash_N (May 19, 2011)

Great pictures! Can't wait to see other cities :cheers:


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

To answer one of your questions, as to what the large building - Great Western Hall - immediately outside of Lime street station is: Originally, it was a hotel that served the railway station.

The world's first -ever train, departed from Lime Street station on its journey to Manchester ( also the first ever train fatality - when the M.P who was officially opening the railway, accidentally fell in front of the departing train). Rail travel revolutionised life in Britain - certainly for the middle classes who used it - and The Great Western Hall was the hotel of choice.

It is now used, unfortunately for such a significant building - as student accommodation.


As for C.C.T.V, I, personally, don't mind it; it has become one of the most reliable tools used in bringing criminals & troublemakers to book.


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## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

Fabulous thread, and it's just getting started! Thanks so much for showing us Liverpool, I'm ashamed to admit I've never been despite my Grandmother being from there and having family in Manchester... You've made me resolve to have a city break there next year.

Look forward to following this thread as it grows!


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

The Elvis Presley lookalike is, actually, of Billy Fury - a 1960s singer from Liverpool.

The two figures in Lime street station are Ken Dodd - a Liverpool comedian, and Bessie Braddock - a champion of the poor in Liverpool.


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

Great trip report so far Dan.:cheers:


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## 1878EFC (Jun 24, 2006)

Their once was an attempt to clean the town hall but as you can see it failed. Here is some great historical information on the hall:



> In 1775 the approach of the American War of Independence had brought a depression in trade with the New World and when sailors' wages were cut a bitter strike ensued.
> 
> At the height of the riots 50 ships were anchored in the Mersey and a ship's cannon was used, albeit unsuccessfully, to attack the Town Hall.
> 
> ...


From here: http://www.civichalls.liverpool.gov.uk/townhall/history/index.asp

If I am not mistaken it also has some shrapnel damage on it from WWII. Also on the road facing their is a sanctuary stone:

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...castle-street-after-roadworks-92534-29008463/

The North Western Hall was once a hotel but is now student accommodation, hope one day it becomes a hotel again. The area around Lime St is in need of regeneration. 

This is the man who was killed by the train: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Huskisson


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

> Then we went into the little town right there (actually I think it used to be a seperate town but is now a part of Liverpool though I can’t remember its name).


The area you're referring to is Waterloo Dan.

Here's a bit more history that may be of interest to you? The very last act of the American Civil War took place at Liverpool Town Hall.



> *Liverpool - The Home of the Confederate Fleet*
> 
> The first act of the war - the first shot of the civil war was fired by a cannon made at Lydia Anne Street.
> 
> ...


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## Linguine (Aug 10, 2009)

Wow, I love this thread......thanks for sharing.:cheers:


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## Wapper (Feb 24, 2011)

Fantastic thread!


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## EuxTex (Dec 26, 2009)

openlyJane said:


> The world's first -ever train, departed from Lime Street station on its journey to Manchester ( also the first ever train fatality - when the M.P who was officially opening the railway, accidentally fell in front of the departing train).


Actually it departed from *Crown Street in Liverpool* and it was there that Huskisson was killed by the locomotive. Lime Street Station was opened much later and only after the cut was made from Edge Hill. The stone that built St. Anne's RC church on Overbury Street was taken from that railway cut. Also, that Parrish was claimed to be the largest, in population, Catholic Parrish in Europe. Due in part to the many tenement blocks within the Parrish boundary.

The *Albert Dock* was to it's day what containerization is to the present. Before Albert ships would tie up along a quay and off-load their cargo's onto the quay. Whereupon longshoremen would then load them aboard flatbed horse drawn lorries for transfer to land-side warehouses. This left the cargo's open to much pilferage and theft. Albert Dock enabled ships to come alongside the quay but have their cargo's hoisted directly from the hold up into the warehouse above. These "hoist bays" can be seen in you excellent pictures, alas they are now glazed. Of course, some of those cargo's were landed on the quay and transported directly to the merchant and there had to be a surface for the shore tenders to tie the ship and as well.

The *Kilt* is of Celtic origin and was/is worn by most branches of the race. The Irish kilt is as old as the Scots version but is usually of a solid color as opposed to a clan identifying tartan/plaid worn by the Scots. The kilt is worn in Ireland, Scotland, Brittany and along the Biscay shore. The bagpipes are also Celtic and are believed to have come out of India when the Celtic tribes migrated from that region. It was once said, about religion in Liverpool, that the city had "the best catholics and protestants but nary a Christian could be found".

For what it's worth; The two versions of how Liverpool came by it's name and emblem, the *Lyver Bird* that I have heard are 1.) The bird is a cormorant which was trained to fish and return to land like an homing pigeon with it's catch. The bird would have a string tied loosely around it's neck so as to impede it's swallowing it's catch. When it returned it was an easy matter to physically regurgitate the, still whole, catch for human consumption. The version on how it came by it's name is 2.) The original *"Pool"* which became the "Old Dock" was near the present Hilton Hotel, police headquarters and Paradise Street. Liverpool being built on pink colored sandstone and it's river being alluvial the pool gave off a dark reddish-brown color, not unlike the color of liver. Is either tale plausible.:dunno:


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## alphaxion (Sep 20, 2002)

openlyJane said:


> The world's first -ever train, departed from Lime Street station on its journey to Manchester ( also the first ever train fatality - when the M.P who was officially opening the railway, accidentally fell in front of the departing train).





EuxTex said:


> Actually it departed from *Crown Street in Liverpool* and it was there that Huskisson was killed by the locomotive. Lime Street Station was opened much later and only after the cut was made from Edge Hill. The stone that built St. Anne's RC church on Overbury Street was taken from that railway cut.


And here I thought the Stockton to Darlington railway was the first public railway line in 1825, and that the first ever train was in Wales, near Merthyr Tydfil created by this guy.

The Liverpool to Manchester railway opened in 1830.


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## EuxTex (Dec 26, 2009)

alphaxion said:


> And here I thought the Stockton to Darlington railway was the first public railway line in 1825, and that the first ever train was in Wales, near Merthyr Tydfil created by this guy.
> 
> The Liverpool to Manchester railway opened in 1830.


Should be addressed to Jane. I never claimed either, just that the train left from Crown Street in Liverpool. See also; http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/journey/lime_street/station/history.shtml


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

The Liverpool to Manchester railway was the *world's first intercity passenger railway*: I stand corrected.


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## EuxTex (Dec 26, 2009)

By the way, thanks Dan, for this excellent thread. I am thoroughly enjoying it.:applause:


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## alphaxion (Sep 20, 2002)

Aye, loving the thread so far


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for all the information. I never really knew the background on the Kilt and bagpipes. Now I know why seemingly different groups all use them.

Not sure how those old quays would have worked. I would think they'd have had to have been built way out into the river, which would have been difficult in and of itself, but they then would also have had to to deal with the currents of the Mersey as the tide goes in and out which are quite strong. Regardless, the wet docks of the current Quay system is quite ingenious and without a doubt Liverpool would never have become the city it became without them. It would be interesting to know who exactly thought of the idea, but it was probably a number of people over time.

I'll work on this thread some more in a bit. I am still only half way through Liverpool and I'd at least like to get to Manchester today.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

After seeing the area where the Captain of the Titanic lived Paul drove me across North Liverpool, heading to a park.

Most of the residences we drove by looked like this:


100_1453 by 600West218, on Flickr

The paint was sometimes peeling on the homes were obviously not as well maintained as in other areas so clearly this was a low income area. Still, I didn’t see anything that was abandoned or completely delapidated as you would see in most any US city. To a certain extent, of course, building built from brick can hide poverty as they generally don’t simply collapse from lack of maintenance as the wood structures of America do.

Next, we arrived at the gate of a large park. Unfortunately I don’t recall its name - hopefully others can tell us that.


100_1457 by 600West218, on Flickr

Of course, it wouldn’t be Liverpool without the Liver birds 


100_1458 by 600West218, on Flickr

Not the most welcoming expression I’ve ever seen.


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ok, here is another little fetish I developed while in England - I loved the bright flourescent patterns on their police and emergency vehicles. They all have them and they are all different patterns and colors. Sometimes they even go on rather fancy cars such as BMWs. There will be plenty more pictures of these.


100_1463 by 600West218, on Flickr

Here is the most sophisticated hand washing machine I’ve ever seen. This one machine wets your hands, drops soap on them, then rinses them, and finally drys them. Is there nothing the English won’t think of?


100_1467 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1468 by 600West218, on Flickr

This is a very old tree, with branches that are so far flung they now have to be propped up with poles, that trials were held under. If my memory serves, I think they actually carried out hangings here too. In any event, not only do English buildings have lots of character, but their trees do as well!

Also, not how it is split down the middle, as if it were hit there by lightning. So English trees are as tenacious survivers as its people are.


100_1470 by 600West218, on Flickr


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url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/600west218/6292165960/]







[/url]
100_1473 by 600West218, on Flickr

Nice homes along the edge in the park. Clearly the owners were well off - not only were the homes quite nice but they always had two or three very upscale cars in the driveway. Note the nice leaded windows:


100_1475 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1480 by 600West218, on Flickr


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For a while I was wondering what all the “E II R” initials were on things like the above mail box and on police cars. It was explained to me that it stands for “Elizabeth Reigns”. Ok, a nice touch, but what happens when she no longer reigns and someone else is king or queen, is every mail box in the country going to be replaced? That question simply elicited a shrug.

Next we hit a couple places associated with the Beatles. Not exactly what I had come to Liverpool for but once you are in the neighborhood what the heck...


100_1483 by 600West218, on Flickr

After I had been in England a few days something dawned on me. English cities were remarkably free of graffiti (and litter). The above scribbling by Beatles fans at the gate of the group home where John Lennon was raised is one of the few exceptions.


100_1485 by 600West218, on Flickr


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One of the boyhood homes of John Lennon.


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Seeing as most all buildings in England were brick or stone and hence limited in their range of colors a touch of color was often added via things like colored doors. Though most weren’t as bright as these they were always a very nice touch.


100_1495 by 600West218, on Flickr

The church where I am told John Lennon and Paul McCartney first met at a social function. Its church yard also contains the grave of Elinor Rigby, of Beatles song fame.


100_1498 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1500 by 600West218, on Flickr

Next we visited this spot where many hundreds of years ago archers sharpened their arrows and practiced shooting at targets. The grooves in the stone come from repeated sharpening of arrows on it.


100_1501 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Love those colors!

Next it was off to the south side of Liverpool, even further south than Aigsburth. We walked along the river Mersey and through some very affluent residential neighborhoods.


100_1510 by 600West218, on Flickr

A patriotic car.


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These homes were extremely well kept. I was told they were quite old but they were in such great condition that they could have been brand new for all I knew.


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There was a big and high see wall at the bottom of which was this “dry” land along the Mersey due to it being low tide. It was very tempting to try to go down and walk along the Mersey, but probably also very unwise and dangerous.


100_1522 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Again, note the beautiful Victorian brickwork with a nice touch of color added by the door.


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Lawns, hedges and gardens were generally kept in absolutely immaculate condition. Note how even the house below, which is less upscale, keeps their small front yard in perfect shape.


100_1550 by 600West218, on Flickr

At that point Paul and I had a dinner ( a very nice one where I first saw something called “Yorkshire Pudding that isn’t actually pudding at all and was served by people whose accents were completely unintelligible to me - Paul had to translate) and he then dropped me off at the main road. Even though I was way to the south of the city center I decided to simply walk to the center - after all that is the best way to explore.


100_1551 by 600West218, on Flickr

There was block after block of row houses. 


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A back alley.


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I love the chimneys. They definitely give a distinctive character to these homes.


100_1568 by 600West218, on Flickr

As you can see, lots and lots and lots and lots of bricks went into building things here. A good trivia question would be: are there more grains of sands in the Sahara or bricks in England? The answer isn’t obvious to me.

Next I went by a military reserve armory (similar to the National Guard armories here in the US I think).


100_1570 by 600West218, on Flickr


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The recruiting slogans are almost identical to those used in the U.S. Not sure who is coping who.


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Continueing my walk towards the city center.


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An old building from 1887 now used as a church.


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100_1583 by 600West218, on Flickr

This was interesting - a computer on the street by a bus stop where you could access various web sites of the City of Liverpool and do things like look for jobs or find out about city services. Never saw anything like that before. Note how it says “Council Services”, not city services or government services. All local governments in England seem to be referred to as “councils” in deference to their being run by an elected council.


100_1584 by 600West218, on Flickr

One thing that really surprised me was how rarely I saw “Fish and Chips” places. I had always thought that was the most common English food. It still may be but that is a matter of some dispute. Some say it still is the most common fast food, while others say it has been over taken by Indian curry. Still, fish and chips is apparently a take out type fast food and it is not often combined with Chinese resteraunts. So you largely choose between Indian curry and Chinese prepared fish and chips!!

This was a nursing home:


100_1587 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1589 by 600West218, on Flickr

A rare open area. Turns out I had walked into Toxteth, an inner city poor area somewhat famous from riots in the 1980s. Frankly, I only realized later what it was when I looked it up on the internet. When I was walking through it it didn’t seem all that poor (though there were more black people here) and not dangerous at all - at least by the standard of what we are used to in the U.S. In fact, all through my travels I walked through very dimly lit areas at night, sometimes towing a suitcase, and just assumed they were safe. Never had a problem or even felt unsafe. Either England is a very safe country with a low crime rate or I was just naive and lucky.


100_1591 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Now that I was close to the city center I noticed a very interesting big building to my left (ie, towards the Mersey) so I went that way to investigate.

This wasn’t actually the building that caught my attention but one next to it.


100_1598 by 600West218, on Flickr


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This is the spectacular old building. Turns out, it is the Cains brewery. You can even get tours of it at 4 pm if there is a group of 6 or more. As I was by myself I never got a tour :-(


100_1607 by 600West218, on Flickr

I love the decorative lattice work on the chimney.


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Sorry for the blurry picture but that is all I have of the actual pub that is part of the brewery. I went back there for a couple of evenings to hang out. Learned a lot about football (soccer) from them and also about the pub industry. Turns out that most all the pubs you see that look old and distinctive are neither old nor independent in most cases. They are chains of pubs simply built to look that way and that only sell the brands of beer that their owners market. That is rather annoying - how are you to know when you are seeing an authentically old pub?


100_1616 by 600West218, on Flickr

Later I took the train back to Aigburth, had a dinner and drinks with my host and that was the end of my second day in England.


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## Wapper (Feb 24, 2011)

Again, nice pictures! Liverpool looks just like perfect to me. I like the architecture very much. 
The English use a lot of bricks for their buildings, as you remarked. This is probably because there are no stones available in the region to build houses with, but there is enough clay to make bricks. The same applies to large parts of northern Europe (the European plain).

The fluo patterns and fluo vests are indeed very British. In fact, I think they use it so much that it doesn't stand out anymore. 
Those cameras are really creepy. I never understood why the people accept them.


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

> Next, we arrived at the gate of a large park. Unfortunately I don’t recall its name


Calderstones Park,keep them coming Dan.:colgate:

I can't believe you walked into the City Centre after I dropped you off,it's great too see what you got up to after I left you though.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

The tree in *Calderstones Park* that you pictured, is reputed to be *1000 years old.* It is known as *The Allerton Oak*

The figure at the gate of the park is one of the statues representing the *'Four Seasons'; *that particular one is representative of *Winter.*


*Toxteth *is not a, necessarily, intimidating area: most crime is gang or drug related.

The handsome houses that you pictured off Aigburth Rd were in the victorian gated estates of *Cressington* & *Grassendale*


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

*Wapper: Those cameras are really creepy. I never understood why the people accept them.
*

To be honest, *people do not even notice them*. And if they do - they are re-assuring ( certainly for me!) - because they pick up on *anti-social behaviour *- and are *successfully used* to bring criminals and trouble-makers to book.

If you do not go about breaking the law, or causing trouble, then you can forget that they are there, and you have nothing to fear. ( that's my perspective, anyway!)


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Excellent thread and very interesting to read the observations kay:

About postboxes, they don't get changed with a new monarch, you can find many 'G R' postboxes from the Georges and the occasional 'V R' example dating back to Victoria's reign.

Detached homes are the minority in England as you suspected, making up around 25% of the total housing stock, probably a bit less than that in the northern cities, more in small towns and rural areas. Terraced and semi-detached houses are about 55% with flats/apartments making up the other 20%.

Brick is most common across the most populated areas of England, you will find stone construction the more common method in other parts such as West Wales and The Cotswolds with white rendered houses being quite common in rural parts of Cornwall or Scotland.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for all the comments and information. One of the great things about the thread is I get to learn still more about England from all your input - and that is one of the main purposes of travel, to learn.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

"Detached homes are the minority in England as you suspected, making up around 25% of the total housing stock, probably a bit less than that in the northern cities, more in small towns and rural areas. Terraced and semi-detached houses are about 55% with flats/apartments making up the other 20%."

Thanks for these numbers. I'd have thought less based on my observations but I have to keep in mind that I only saw a very small part of England, the urbanized north, and that part may not be reprensentative of England as a whole. I probably need 3 or 4 more trips to different parts of the country before I can begin to generalize, and maybe not even then. One big mistake of travelers is to generalize based on very limited and skewed travelers.


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## VoldemortBlack (Oct 31, 2009)

Fantastic thread, and some great Liverpool streetscape shots. It would do some of the Liverpool forumers well to repost some of these images in the "Best Present Streetscape" thread over on the City Talk forums, with 600West's permission of course 

Can't wait to see how you got on in Manchester!


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## LondonFox (Nov 4, 2010)

Jonesy55 said:


> About postboxes, they don't get changed with a new monarch, you can find many 'G R' postboxes from the Georges and the occasional 'V R' example dating back to Victoria's reign.



Interestingly, if you ever go to the British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar... every single red post box there is either GIIR or VIIR... they don't have any EIIR ones... or that many anyway.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Anyone can repost these pictures - I have no problem with that.

Manchester required more walking than Liverpool, I think. And it was easier to get lost because there weren't obvious skyline markers that could give you a point of reference.

Also, most of my pictures there are of the city center, the Quays, and the south of the city. But no worries, there will be lots of them!


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Manchester is that bit bigger and in Liverpool the waterfront is quite useful for navigation I find. The best Manchester building for navigating by imo is the Beetham Tower which is visible from many places around the centre.

Anyway, look forward to seeing more kay:


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## Crash_N (May 19, 2011)

Jonesy55 said:


> Manchester is that bit bigger and in Liverpool the waterfront is quite useful for navigation I find. *The best Manchester building for navigating by imo is the Beetham Tower* which is visible from many places around the centre.
> 
> Anyway, look forward to seeing more kay:


It has such an impact on the city that you'd say it's 300 meters tall. Great photos :cheers:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

My third day in Liverpool was spent in the area of the docks exploring some of the museums there. First I walked around the docks themselves a bit:


100_1622 by 600West218, on Flickr


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The Victorians seem to have been into building castle tower look alikes. I like them.


100_1625 by 600West218, on Flickr

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Notice you can see the Anglican Cathederal in the bacground. The central area of Liverpool is fairly compact, and very walkable. That is one of the things I liked most about it.


100_1632 by 600West218, on Flickr

I think you can notice here what I mentioned when discussing the Tobacco Warehouse. The Albert Docks have been sand blasted so clean that they look new. Personally, I prefer the aged looks of the Tobacco Warehouse. But I guess most potential buyers of Real Estate must prefer it to look new and cleaner, otherwise they’d leave it looking like the T.W.


100_1633 by 600West218, on Flickr

Some new structures built to blend in. Note the brickwork on the far building. It looks just the same as that on the Albert Docks even though this clearly is a very recently built building.

Could it really be that the Albert Docks was only built 5 years ago and the Liverpool tourism board just SAYS it is 150 years old to draw in suckers like me? Well, I guess I”ll take their word for it that it really is old but if ever they use the T.W. for something I hope they leave the exterior as it is.


100_1634 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1637 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1639 by 600West218, on Flickr

An interesting contraption. I road it one night. Sadly I couldn’t get good pictures though the glass because it was raining.


100_1640 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Costa is a coffee shop similar to Starbucks. The bottom level of the docks was populated mainly by souvenir shops and expensive eateries.

This is also the entrance to some exhibit on the Beatles which I didn’t visit.


100_1644 by 600West218, on Flickr

I believe this is a sports arena/convention center


100_1646 by 600West218, on Flickr

The Mersey that I saw was always brown in color and rough with big waves and strong currents. I was glad I wasn’t in it. The area across the river is called the Wirral and is interesting in its own right. I visited it the following day.


100_1647 by 600West218, on Flickr



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Leaving the cranes does give it a touch of authenticity. 


100_1652 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1654 by 600West218, on Flickr

Finally I had made it around the entire dock and was at the entrance of the Slavery and Maritime Museums which are housed in the Albert Docks.

The Slavery museum was about 1 full floor and was quite good in giving the history of the slave trade. They were surprisingly frank and honest about Liverpools key role in the slave trade. In fact, I found that Liverpudlians over all have come to terms with it in a way that Americans never have with experience with slavery. When I would say to people that Liverpool has spectacular old buildings they would say, “yes, Liverpool made lots of money off the slave trade so they were able to build really nice buildings”. By contrast, I never meet Americans who will admit to the role slavery played in making the U.S. rich.

Unfortunately the museum as quite dark so I didn’t get any decent pictures.

Sadly the same goes for the Maritime Museum, which is much larger than the slavery museum and occupies over two floors. It has lots of really good exhibits and very nice models of ships. It also has really old film of people in Liverpool waiting for word on the fate of their relatives after the news came out that the Titanic sank. Very moving.


100_1660 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1662 by 600West218, on Flickr

This is a replica of a steam engine from one of the early steamships and one of the only pictures I could get.

The central Quay of the Albert Dock


100_1664 by 600West218, on Flickr


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As you can see, the Quays are fully functional and house some good size ships.

Next to the Maritime Museum they had the home of the dock keeper that was set up to look as it would have during the blitz. In fact, one of the biggest things I learned on this trip was that Liverpool and other northern cities were bombed extensively during the war. In the US we are generally led to believe that the blitz was largely confined to London.


100_1681 by 600West218, on Flickr


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I sort of doubt that people would really have had pictures of Churchill on their walls, but who knows?


100_1685 by 600West218, on Flickr

Outside the Museum they had some ships in drydocks:


100_1688 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1692 by 600West218, on Flickr

The same system that allows the wet docks to work also allows the dry docks to work. The only difference being that for the wet docks they close the gates at high tide to keep the water in and with the dry docks they close it at low tide to keep the water out.


100_1696 by 600West218, on Flickr

Back to the Three Graces. 


100_1699 by 600West218, on Flickr

This was inside the new Liverpool Museum which is all about Liverpool and its history. Even though it was only partially open it was an excellent Museum that should definitely be visited.


100_1709 by 600West218, on Flickr

Note the flag is the flag of England not of the U.K. I saw that fairly often, the English rather than the national flag being flown. Doing something like that would probably be illegal in the US, but regardless, you never see it.


100_1710 by 600West218, on Flickr

Next I headed over to the Three Graces themselves and went in the Port of Liverpool building which mainly seems to be offices of financial firms these days. 

100_1713 by 600West218, on Flickr


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You could actually walk up the stairs to the various floors around the rotunda. They had very nice stain glass windows that seem to represent what were the British territories at that time. I saw some names I hadn’t seen in a long time:


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British Honduras? What is that, Belize?


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Aden?!?!?! No idea what that is.


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Now, if you’ve been paying attention you will note that there is no window for the Falkland Islands. I think Argentina should use this omission to argue that the islands really are theirs after all  In any event, I hope you can see that is a beautiful building and merits being explored if you are in the area.


100_1749 by 600West218, on Flickr

I like the contrast of old and new.


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A restaurant named after a ship


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Wandering back into the town center I was able to see the Queen Victoria monument that was previously obscured by the Irish parade.


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I still had some daylight left so I wanted about in town. Soon I wound up back at the town hall and can’t resist posting more pictures of it.


100_1764 by 600West218, on Flickr

Now, notice they fly the Union Jack!!

Can’t get enough of this building either:


100_1765 by 600West218, on Flickr

Remember how the other day I mentioned standing in front of the town hall and not knowing which way to go? Well, this time instead of walking straight down the street that the town hall faces I walked up the street (ie, away from the Mersey) it is on.

And here is what I went by


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I love that term “Assurance”


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This seemed to be a no longer used rail station converted into offices.


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Inside


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Ok, I have to be a little honest here. At this point Liverpool was actually starting to annoy me. I had a belt pouch for my camera and whenever I would snap a few pictures I would put the camera away thinking I wouldn’t take anymore pictures. Then I would go another block or around a corner and there would be some other spectacular building that I knew I had to take a picture of so out the camera came. Even though I was just wandering around blindly not knowing where I was going it just seemed the spectacle of one building after another would never end.


100_1807 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Note the statues. It occurs to me, not only did this city once have a lot of money, but they clearly wanted to put it in everyones face exactly how much money they had. Showoffs!


100_1810 by 600West218, on Flickr

Also note, this building is English, not British.


100_1811 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Fortunately for me, daylight soon faded away and I was put out of my building overload misery.

The ferris wheel did look nice at night though.


100_1820 by 600West218, on Flickr


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## chase_me (Jul 19, 2009)

Glad you enjoyed your visit to northern England! Fantastic photos of liverpool (it really is a very photogenic city  ) can't wait to see the rest of your photos of the other cities and places you visited, it's always nice to see a visitors perspective of England/the uk


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

Ha! A city that annoys because it has too many grand buildings! No rest for the curious.

I was thinking that some of the furnishings in the WWII home looked like my grandmothers. (showing my age, perhaps?) And then, the I see the guardian angel picture over the bed. My grandmother had the exact same one. When I was little and frightened to sleep alone in her guest room, she would point to the picture over the bed and remind me that the guardian angel was watching over me. A nice memory--thanks!


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

"I was thinking that some of the furnishings in the WWII home looked like my grandmothers. (showing my age, perhaps?)"

Yes, I thought they looked similar to US homes of that era too.

Further, current English homes only really look different from the outside. Once you went inside someones home, you noted they looked almost exactly the same as an American home.

In Manchester the home where I stayed looked earily similar, inside and out, to the apartment where I grew up in Upstate New York.

For all they squable and bicker Americans and Brits clearly have far more in common than they do differences. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, as they say.


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## Crash_N (May 19, 2011)

600West218 said:


> "I was thinking that some of the furnishings in the WWII home looked like my grandmothers. (showing my age, perhaps?)"
> 
> Yes, I thought they looked similar to US homes of that era too.
> 
> ...


Like hell it doesn't! It fell on the other side of the Pond! :lol:


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

An engaging photothread, and good to hear a personal, unbias perspective. Quite refreshing. 

The grand, architectural streetscapes in many of the photos you took of Liverpool remind me of Piccadilly and Mayfair in London, which as most may be aware, are very affluent areas. 

As for the interior of homes being similar in both England and America, in my experience there exists major similarities with all western countries. I am surprised however, how you found some things to be distinctly unlike America, like the bright, fluro attire that emergency services use. It's worn so they can stand out, and with England's sometimes foggy and overcast weather, it's really a necessity. It also exists in many other countries. 

I'm also very interested in industrial heritage. One of the reasons Britian saw the proliferation of terrace houses, was to accommodate the masses who were coming from the country-side to work in the factories of towns and cities. This affected the lifestyle and culture of the people ever since, from their family ties, to the cuisine, recreation etc. 

Great work. Looking forward to more.


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## VoldemortBlack (Oct 31, 2009)

Once again some brilliant photos, Liverpool really is a very pretty city.

Looking forward to seeing more :')


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## Caiman (Jul 11, 2003)

Absolutely amazing photo report of your trip around Liverpool, you’ve captured so much of the character of the place and it looks fantastic. Glad you had such a great time and managed to see so much, loving the level of detail so far, can’t wait to see more of your trip


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

I can assure you that the *Albert Dock *is old. it was built in 1846 and designed by Jesse Hartley. It was the first building in Britain to be built using cast iron, brick & stone - with no wooden structures at all - -making it the* world's first non-combustible warehouse*.

Furthermore, it & its associated buildings represent *Britain's largest single collection of Grade 1 listed buildings.*.

I ,recently, took some interior shots of both the slavery and the maritime museum - check out my thread!


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

Jonesy55 said:


> Detached homes are the minority in England as you suspected, making up around 25% of the total housing stock, probably a bit less than that in the northern cities, more in small towns and rural areas. Terraced and semi-detached houses are about 55% with flats/apartments making up the other 20%.
> 
> Brick is most common across the most populated areas of England, you will find stone construction the more common method in other parts such as West Wales and The Cotswolds with white rendered houses being quite common in rural parts of Cornwall or Scotland.


I just checked the 2000 US Census. Couldn't find the 2010 info, but things couldn't have changed that much.

60.3% - detached
5.6% - attached
9.1% - apartment buildings with 2-4 units
17.3 - apartment buildings with 5 or more units
7.6% - mobile homes

I am surprised to see the attached-home figure so low. Maybe it is because I am used to areas with lots of attached homes, such as Baltimore & Philadelphia. The US government gives a tax break to homeowners. This encourages Americans to purchase the most expensive house they can, which often leads to detached homes. Also, our government backs loans that often favor detached houses. These loans, such as FHA, make purchasing a detached home much easier. However, I think our attachment to detached homes is mostly cultural. With mobile homes being 7.6%, it indicates that Americans want a detached home even when on a tight budget.

Does the UK subsidize home buying/ownership? Are mobile homes as popular in the UK as in the US (especially in rural areas).


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

'other' which includes mobile homes, houseboats etc is less than 1% in the UK I think, a few retired people move to mobile homes and there are a handful of gypsies/travellers but it's not common.

Mortgage interest was tax deductible in the 80s and 90s but there hasn't been any subsidy since then.

Planning policy here doesn't usually allow for loads of big plots on undeveloped land so attached homes are often used to save space.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for the numbers Expat.

They don't surprise me at all. Yes, Philly, Baltimore and other east coast cities are very much the exception. Even in NY, once you get west of Schnectady you almost never see attached homes though I guess you could consider town houses an exception.

I think the main factor is land. England just doesn't have land. Their population density is very high.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Jane, I know they are really that old 

I just wish they had been allowed to look a little more aged. Look how spectacularly the Town Hall and the Tobacco Warehouse show their age!!


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

600West218 said:


> I think the main factor is land. England just doesn't have land. Their population density is very high.


Especially south of around York/Preston. Beyond that the very north of England and most of Scotland is much less dense. In the southern half of the UK only some parts of mid/north Wales and some of the Southwest peninsula are significantly less densely populated.

Of course there would physically be space for everybody to live on US-sized plots but you would create a sea of sprawl from the south coast to north of Manchester and Leeds.

Interesting that more Americans than Brits live in apartments, though we do have one of the lowest figures in Europe, only Ireland and Norway have fewer apartment-dwellers than the UK i think.


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## Wapper (Feb 24, 2011)

600West218 said:


> Thanks for the numbers Expat.
> 
> They don't surprise me at all. Yes, Philly, Baltimore and other east coast cities are very much the exception. Even in NY, once you get west of Schnectady you almost never see attached homes though I guess you could consider town houses an exception.
> 
> I think the main factor is land. England just doesn't have land. Their population density is very high.


I think that tradition and customs are also important. Not all parts of Europe are as dense as England, yet you will see lots of attached houses (I expect more than in the USA). Cities and even villages in Europe have always been very dense, even when the overall population density wasn't that high.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Wapper said:


> I think that tradition and customs are also important. Not all parts of Europe are as dense as England, yet you will see lots of attached houses (I expect more than in the USA). Cities and even villages in Europe have always been very dense, even when the overall population density wasn't that high.


This is true. From the train I would some times see a block of row (terrace) houses in the middle of a rural area surrounded by fields :nuts:

Also note that the very rich houses that I showed where the White Star people lived were also attached.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

600West218 said:


> Jane, I know they are really that old
> 
> I just wish they had been allowed to look a little more aged. Look how spectacularly the Town Hall and the Tobacco Warehouse show their age!!


I know you know! :lol:

What you are referring to, though, as signs of age - often just means dirt and decay.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

Great photos! I've never been to Liverpool and your commentary of the UK from an American point of view is very interesting.


As Jonesy said, the post boxes won't get replaced and "Elizabeth Regina" will stay on, along with the ones before. 

Indeed, the UK has less crime than the US, I wouldn't feel scared of walking anywhere in the UK at night except for may some alleyways in some places, but not on proper roads, nor are areas considered to be poor here anything like as poor as places like the South Bronx

Its interesting how theres things which I'm very used to, like CCTV, that you've pointed out and something that you're not used to. You should have gone in a hospital to have a look


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## EuxTex (Dec 26, 2009)

Hi Dan
I would like to make a suggestion, if I may. It is for you to read this book that I think would be a fantastic supplement to your recent trip, especially to the Liverpool portion of it. The book is written in the third person but is obviously based on his own experience. The book _*"Redburns First Voyage"*_ by _Herman Melville._ Melville did the same tour of Liverpool about 150 years ahead of you and graphically described his experience. I am sure you would enjoy comparing his experience with your own. Remember, not a few of the buildings you photographed were present in Melville's day.

Once again, thanks for taking the effort to share your experience with us.


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## Pablo Diablo (Nov 21, 2009)

600West218 said:


> My third day in Liverpool was spent in the area of the docks exploring some of the museums there. First I walked around the docks themselves a bit:
> 
> The Victorians seem to have been into building castle tower look alikes. I like them.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you enjoyed your time here! I'm really enjoying all your photos!

Some recent news that may interest you...

The Stanley Dock area (including the Tobacco Warehouse) has been given government funding to enable its conversion to an Albert Dock style area filled with shops, bars, restaurants, offices and apartments. The funding will also help pay for an improved district heating system for those canal side houses you saw 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-15537963


Also, HMS Liverpool (the ship that lends its name to the restaurant on James Street) is about return to Britain after a successful deployment in Libya


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

DanielFigFoz said:


> Its interesting how theres things which I'm very used to, like CCTV, that you've pointed out and something that you're not used to. You should have gone in a hospital to have a look


Actually, the CCTV cameras didn't bother me. However, I do know there would be a HUGE uproar in the US if they tried to use them this way. Here lots of people have even gotten up set over red light cameras that take pictures of peoples license plates when they go through a red light.

It is just that there extent surprised me. I mean, the sign on the trains that said "Smile, you are being filmed" was not something I expected to see (and then I spent a half hour trying to figure out where the cameras were!). 

I actually did go into hospitals in both Manchester and Leeds. I work in a hospital in the US so I had to check them out. There will be photos and I'll give my impressions.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

EuxTex said:


> Hi Dan
> I would like to make a suggestion, if I may. It is for you to read this book that I think would be a fantastic supplement to your recent trip, especially to the Liverpool portion of it. The book is written in the third person but is obviously based on his own experience. The book _*"Redburns First Voyage"*_ by _Herman Melville._ Melville did the same tour of Liverpool about 150 years ahead of you and graphically described his experience. I am sure you would enjoy comparing his experience with your own. Remember, not a few of the buildings you photographed were present in Melville's day.
> 
> Once again, thanks for taking the effort to share your experience with us.


Thanks, and thanks for the book recommendation. I definitely should look into that. It will be interesting to see what things were like then. I suspect it will be more or less as it is now - culture doesn't change that much.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Pablo Diablo said:


> I'm glad you enjoyed your time here! I'm really enjoying all your photos!
> 
> Some recent news that may interest you...
> 
> ...



Excellent news. :banana: I don't think Liverpool should ever be permitted to damage those buildings. It is a UNESCO site. So I think we could send it military forces if we have to to protect the Tobacco Warehouses:lol: - they belong to the WORLD after all :cheers:


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

600West218 said:


> I actually did go into hospitals in both Manchester and Leeds. I work in a hospital in the US so I had to check them out. There will be photos and I'll give my impressions.


I look forward to that!


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

The fourth day I had scheduled to see the Liverpool War Museum Western Approaches and then take the ferry across the Mersey to see the German U-Boat in Birkenhead.

I actually got into to the center a little early (the Liverpool War Museum is actually right next to the Town Hall but it doesn’t open until 10 am) so I wandered around a bit and found myself behind the Town Hall where I ran across this:


100_1828 by 600West218, on Flickr

What a site! I had actually seen this in Jane’s thread about Liverpool on SC so I recognized it immediately. Yet how close I had come to not seeing it at all. One great thing about simply wandering about is through serendipity you come across really interesting things - but you also risk missing some really spectacular things unless you wander a lot.

Make sure to read the inscription at the top of the base! And also note what is trying to hide under the shroud!


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Here you can see how it is set right behind the town hall.


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And further behind they have this:


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One thing bears mentioning now. I saw lots of war related statues and went to a number of military museums. It was interesting to see the emphasis on World War I, which was a horrific war but which gets very little mention in the US due to the US only getting involved at the late stages of the war. I actually have a relative who was in WWI so I did find it very interesting to be able to learn more about it and the most poingnet part of any museum was actually regarding WWI, which I’ll mention when I get to that part.


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Shouldn’t all BMWs have this kind of paint job?


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Why is it that in the US we get glass boxes and in England they get this? This could have been built as a plain and ugly glass box but they gave it some flare. American architects really need to come to the other side of the pond and get some ideas.


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With still more time to kill I wandered down to this church:


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An adjascent building:


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Back in the church yard there was this memorial to about the Blitz:


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Sadly, I didn’t take a picture of the plaque but I believe this moment was to the families and young children who went through the Blitz. As I mentioned before, due to its strategic importance as England’s main resupply port Liverpool was the most heavily bombed city after London.

Finally the museum opened and I went in. The museum is located in the bomb proof bunker where British naval commanders oversaw the Battle of the Atlantic - ie, the battle to bring resupply conveys past German U-boats and safely into English ports, primarily Liverpool. Most supplies coming from the west, generally the US and Canada, arrived in Liverpool as that is the closest port for them - hence the term “Western Approaches”.

You go down through several floors each with very thick floors of concrete and each with guard posts. After seeing a few exhibits you finally arrive at what was the heart of this center during the war and what is the center piece of the museum:


100_1854 by 600West218, on Flickr

It is a gigantic map room with maps on a very big table and a huge one a couple of stories tall against a wall. On the maps young women plotted the positions of all convoys, known U-boat positions, aircraft, British ships and other useful information (including weather).


100_1855 by 600West218, on Flickr

You can see the ladder that people had to climb to position things on the wall board. One woman fell and died and was said to haunt the command center after that.


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The commander of the center had this office with an overview of the map room.

He also had a direct link to the War Cabinet in London:


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You can see the commander had a window with a direct view into the map room. On the wall board you can actually see Iceland and Scotland just peaking above the bottom of the window.

Obviously in a place like this secure communications was key and they had lots of it.


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Although I am not posting pictures of them they had numerous small exhibits that gave interesting information about the Battle of the Atlantic and the command bunker. The museum was a good small museum and that it was an actual site of key events in the war makes it a must visit site in Liverpool.

Before leaving the museum I spoke with one of the employees there who showed me more pictures of how badly bombed Liverpool was. For all the spectacular buildings it still has it actually lost some of its best buildings in the war. I wondered though, how some key buildings weren’t bombed. For example, why wouldn’t they have bombed St. Georges Hall, if for no other reason than to hurt British morale? The answer she gave was the Hitler himself picked all targets and he didn’t target St. Georges Hall because he wanted to use it for the Nazi government once Germany captured England. Of course, he was getting a little ahead of himself there....

Then I walked down to the river to get the ferry, taking in more sites along the way:


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An interesting and noble apology.


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Finally, I was aboard the ferry, pulling away from Liverpool:


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BTW, the tide was going out and the current was very strong. Fall in that water and you are on your way to Ireland very quickly.


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Note you can see the radio tower in the background


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The Tobacco Warehouse!!


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and the mariners clock.


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There were actually lots more wind turbines out towards the sea. But they were pretty far away.


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By the first stop on the Wirral side (to see the U-boat I was to get off at the second stop).


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Liverpool from all the way across the Mersey.


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How is this for a view over the Albert Docks and to the Anglican Cathederal? :


100_1920 by 600West218, on Flickr

In this one you have the Anglican Cathederal on the right and the modern Metropolitan (Catholic) Cathederal on the left.


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Back to the Wirral side:


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Coming up to my stop:


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I went into the U-boat museum which although it was small was quite good with interesting artifacts, excellent explanations, and some really good videos:


IMG_6187 by 600West218, on Flickr

However, what it is most famous for, more famous than even the U-boat, is intact Enigma machines which were the very famous machines used to encode their U-boat communications and which the equally famous British code breakers at Bletchley Park finally broke.

I of course don’t really know how it worked but I from what I understand the correct wheels had to be put in the machine, and then wires had to be connected to a certain pattern in the back of the machine. Once that was done the coded message received over the radio could be typed into the machine using the keyboard and the deciphered message in “plain German” would come out.


IMG_6173 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6174 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6175 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6176 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6185 by 600West218, on Flickr

After seeing the indoor part of the museum I went outside to see the atual U-Boat which is cut up in about 4 or 5 big pieces with plexi-glass over all the ends so you can see what is inside each peice.

The U-Boat itself has a very strange story. It fled Germany in the last days of the war with an unknown mission. It had Germany’s most modern and dangerous torpedoes on it. Theories of where it was going and what it was trying to accomplish range from taking top Nazis to South America to taking the advanced torpedo to Japan to help their war effort. It was spotted by British aircraft and sunk by a British ships depth charges. Later it was found and brought up, I belief by some wealthy Danes. No one quite what to do with it nor had money for its display so it eventially wound up in Wirral.


100_1930 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1927 by 600West218, on Flickr

Unfortunately I don’t seem to have gotten people in these pictures so you can see the scale but trust me when I say it is BIG.


100_1928 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1929 by 600West218, on Flickr

Unfortunately it was hard to photograph the interior due to reflections on the glass.


100_1931 by 600West218, on Flickr


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There you get a bit of perspective, but remember that part of the sub is under a platform.


100_1933 by 600West218, on Flickr

This dented portion of the rear is where they believe the depth charge that sank it hit.


100_1935 by 600West218, on Flickr


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IMG_6189 by 600West218, on Flickr

This I believe is a view into the engine room.

Done in the museum I decided to wander around the local area to see what was there. Boy, what you can just stumble upon in England!!


100_1949 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1950 by 600West218, on Flickr

Walking up hill, into the town, in the direction I had been told the central square was in.


100_1951 by 600West218, on Flickr


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An old train station which is still a train station on the Merseyrail system. I wonder from when the “frequent electric train” sign dates.


100_1955 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1956 by 600West218, on Flickr

I guess in Victorian times they didn’t believe in building anything that was simple and functional!

Finally getting to the town center on top of the hill I came to this:


100_1961 by 600West218, on Flickr

The square was surrounded by these very stately buildings:


100_1958 by 600West218, on Flickr

They seemed to be filled with “solicitors” offices which I later found out was British for lawyers (British lawyers, being more clever than American lawyers, found a way to double their numbers - there is still another type of lawyer in Britain, called a Barrister. And to go to court you actually need one of each!!).


100_1957 by 600West218, on Flickr

Here you get the first glimpse of the Wirral Museum, which is now actually a government office building. Note it is flying the Union Jack, rather than the English flag. It seems completely arbitrary which building flies which flag. I wonder who decides - the janitor? If you didn’t know better you could think the country was on the verge of the civil war.


100_1960 by 600West218, on Flickr

Here is the obligatory list on granite of all the local boys who died in “The Great War”. You read in history books how Britain almost lost an entire generation in the First World War. Seeing all the names on all the monuments you really see that.


100_1962 by 600West218, on Flickr

Given that it is now an government office building it isn’t open to the public. But as I expressed an interest in what was inside and had an obviously foreign accent one very kind employee took me on a tour.


100_1963 by 600West218, on Flickr


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100_1965 by 600West218, on Flickr

Note the date below the clock and the two infants to either side.


100_1966 by 600West218, on Flickr

I think this room was named after someone important, but I can’t remember who :-(


100_1967 by 600West218, on Flickr

On this side of the Mersey they had a lot of the same activities as on the Liverpool side. They had a port and they also did a lot of ship building. The bottom line is they had lots of money, and it shows.


100_1969 by 600West218, on Flickr

Sorry for the blurry pictures. It was low light, with a cheap camera, and no tripod. But you get the idea...


100_1972 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Now, this is what happens when you are lucky enough to find nice people who will show you around. This is a large model of the waterfront of the Birkenhead area from around the turn of the 20th century. It was saved from the museum that used to occupy this building - they didn’t have the heart to destroy it. But they don’t know what to do with it, though they hope to have it displayed again in the future. If they can’t do themselves I certainly hope one of the museums in Liverpool puts it on display. Something like this simply can’t be lost.

Look carefully and you can see some of the buildings I took pictures of down by the U-boat museum


100_1976 by 600West218, on Flickr


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More of the buildings around the square. I wonder if they were always offices or if they were maybe residences for the upper crust of the town?


100_1984 by 600West218, on Flickr

I wandered a bit and as soon as you were a block of that main square you came to these type of row houses.

My CouchSurfing host had told me about Port Sunlight, and how it had been a planned community of very nice housing for the workers in the Lever company’s soap factory. I was already planning to see something like this outside of Leeds, Saltaire, but I was told I should see this one too. Given that I had about an hour of daylight left I decided to head over to it.


100_1986 by 600West218, on Flickr

This is the Merseyrail station under Hamilton Square Station. Notice anything funny? Oh yeah, it is spotless and litter free. I think all New Yorkers should come and see this so they can realize that just because you ride a subway doesn’t mean you have to be a pig and throw garbage all over the place.


100_1987 by 600West218, on Flickr

Note the sign saying when the next trains are coming. They just put these type of signs up in New York about 6 months ago, and they make it sound as if it is super high tech and we should all be grateful. The signs on Merseyrail look like they have the NYC subway beat by a decade or two.

Finally arriving at Port Sunlight:


100_1988 by 600West218, on Flickr

100_1989 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1990 by 600West218, on Flickr

The entrance to the “Lever House” factory:


100_1991 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_1995 by 600West218, on Flickr

The factory has a modern part and is still in operation


100_1996 by 600West218, on Flickr

This time I couldn't get past the gate, even with an American accent.


100_1998 by 600West218, on Flickr

The workers homes. Even today they are nice. For their time...


100_2002 by 600West218, on Flickr

There were lots of nice Tudor style buildings. I’m not sure what they all were or when they were built.


100_2003 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2004 by 600West218, on Flickr

Immaculately designed and maintained homes and immaculate gardens. Stereotypically English.


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100_2008 by 600West218, on Flickr

A nice sports field of some sort.


100_2009 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2013 by 600West218, on Flickr


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No need to guess how old this one is.


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Its not enough to build your workers nice homes. You have to ensure they are cultured and build them their own art museum as well. I wonder how you get a job with Lever anyways?


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100_2031 by 600West218, on Flickr

Eventually, daylight faded and I headed back to Liverpool.

Thus ended Tuesday, my fourth, and last, day in Liverpool. Wednesday I would be wrapping up in Liverpool and heading on to Manchester. It was going to be hard to top Liverpool but I had high expectations for Manchester.


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## chase_me (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks again for those excellent photos! It's been a few weeks since I've been to Liverpool but never travelled as extensively as you have and that rail way station you have a pic of (the one with the tower and "frequent services I think it said" ) was actually part of the Liverpool high level, similar to what you have over in your cities in America. http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/pdf/OverheadRailway.pdf this gives a bit of info about it, or just typing in liverpool high level rail way etc, I think everyone here wishes it still survived -'would have been amazing to go on it today 

Anyway, looking forward to your next installment as always


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## 10123 (Feb 23, 2009)

Thoroughly enjoyable so far. 

Looking forward to more, although I'm even more looking forward to my glorious home town of Leeds


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Hang tight, Leeds is coming.  I spent three full days in Manchester, plus a travel day to Manchester and another travel day from Manchester to Leeds. But by this weekend I should be getting to pictures of Leeds.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

chase_me said:


> Thanks again for those excellent photos! It's been a few weeks since I've been to Liverpool but never travelled as extensively as you have and that rail way station you have a pic of (the one with the tower and "frequent services I think it said" ) was actually part of the Liverpool high level, similar to what you have over in your cities in America. http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/pdf/OverheadRailway.pdf this gives a bit of info about it, or just typing in liverpool high level rail way etc, I think everyone here wishes it still survived -'would have been amazing to go on it today
> 
> Anyway, looking forward to your next installment as always


So the elevated train crossed the Mersey (in a tunnel obviously) and went to Birkenhead?

Paul told me about the elevated train and then I saw some books about it in gift shops. One problem on this trip was I was trying to travel light so I didn't get to buy as many books as I would have liked.


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## chase_me (Jul 19, 2009)

600West218 said:


> So the elevated train crossed the Mersey (in a tunnel obviously) and went to Birkenhead?
> 
> Paul told me about the elevated train and then I saw some books about it in gift shops. One problem on this trip was I was trying to travel light so I didn't get to buy as many books as I would have liked.


No I dnt think so, it was only around the dock areas on the actual Liverpool side I think, the report mentions only 11 stations and spammed 6miles so must be just on the one side - the tunnels to the Wirral side is what the current merseyrail uses now as it did then. Someone from Liverpool will probs explain in more detail later on as I'm not too sure of what I say is quite right since I'm not from there. And yes travelling light is best, though I always buy lots of stuff when away, and I go mostly to Asia these last few years so go with one suitcase and come back with about two or three! but amazon helps get those books if you still want them! 

BTW you were in Manchester on a Thursday? If you visited the cathedral in the afternoon that day you probs wudve seen me there as I help out front on thurs afternoons


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## WrathChild (Aug 4, 2007)

GREAT thread. Loving it.
Liverpool looks fabulous...


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## Regener8tor (May 22, 2011)

Great thread & really looking forward to the next update. Especially Manc & Leeds! 

Shame about the weather though :-(


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## christos-greece (Feb 19, 2008)

Good looking and very nice photos; looking forward too for any updates


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## Steel City Suburb (Jun 13, 2007)

Very nice.

Good thread.


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## Bristol Mike (Aug 5, 2007)

Fantastic photo thread here and a great commentary - interesting hearing it from a non-British point of view. I suppose the only shame was the weather. Out of all the glorious days in October, the weather had to be like that for you in Liverpool.


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## Pobbie (Jul 16, 2005)

600West218 said:


> So the elevated train crossed the Mersey (in a tunnel obviously) and went to Birkenhead?


No, the Overhead Railway was on the Liverpool side only. Hamilton Square station was opened in 1886 in conjunction with the opening of the Mersey Railway Tunnel, though the sign on the hydraulic lift tower can only date back as far as 1903 (that's when the line was first electrified). The tower had a twin across the river at James Street station (right next to The Liverpool pub you posted pictures of), but it was destroyed in WW2.

What a fantastic photographic tour you have provided of my home town, and it's nice to hear you had such a great visit. You managed to cover a lot of ground, including several interesting sights off the beaten track which most tourists have no idea exist. It's always enlightening to listen to an outside perspective of familiar things. Just a shame you had to visit during such a drab spell of weather (a week without sunshine is unusual even here) - a week or so earlier it was shorts and ice-cream weather.

Thanks again.


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## Crash_N (May 19, 2011)

Fantastic photos! Can't wait for more :cheers:


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

Notice the grills on the bottom of the Nelson Memorial at the back of the Town Hall there,that's actually a ventilation shaft,I'm not sure what for though?


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

Excellent report so far! Liverpool is a terrific city! Keep them coming. :cheers2:


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## cardiff (Jul 26, 2005)

I think what ive enjoyed most, other than the great pictures, is seeing the UK through your eyes, and what is mundane and boring to us is new and different to you.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Paul D said:


> Notice the grills on the bottom of the Nelson Memorial at the back of the Town Hall there,that's actually a ventilation shaft,I'm not sure what for though?


Great observation. I am going to make a guess where they go - maybe to the underground command bunker that is now the Liverpool War museum? It really could be possible. Maybe if you stop by the museum someone there will know. But they built that bunker under a big existing office building and they almost certainly had to build ventilation shafts but also build them so they weren't obvious.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Wednesday was a day that when I planned my trip I just put down as a day to travel from Liverpool to Manchester. And not realizing how long a trip is between those two cities the safest thing was to not plan anything else. So I didn’t.

But when I first arrived and took the train from Manchester’s airport to Liverpool I realized - wow, that was only 45 minutes. Hence, I knew on Wednesday that I didn’t have to rush. And that was good as there were two things I didn’t want to leave Liverpool without doing.

One was to go to the Metropolitan Cathederal and possibly go up its tower. The other was to go back to the Anglican Cathederal, which I wanted to spend more time just taking in, and also go back to the cemetary at its side to see the tomb of the first person killed by a train which I didn’t know about when I first visited.

So I went back to the town center and wandered around a bit more - first by St. George’s Hall:


100_2034 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2037 by 600West218, on Flickr

The monuments, sadly, never end. There are even fairly new ones:


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And no, the crane is not lifting part of the statue. A interesting, but unintentional photographic effect.


100_2057 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2058 by 600West218, on Flickr

I wish I could describe these photos more but the sad reality is I can’t remember what was what. Such are the riches of Liverpool and its buildings and monunents that it is just impossible to keep track of it all. I think some of this was a library - but if anyone wants to jump in and point out what some of these are please go right ahead.


100_2060 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2064 by 600West218, on Flickr

This picture shows part of why I was so unconcerned about getting a train to Manchester. If you look at this board you can see there are trains leaving for various locations every few minutes. And from Liverpool, a good number of them will go to or through Manchester. On the very right on side of the schedule board you can maybe see two columns of lists. Those are lists of trains departing over maybe the next half hour but that are still to far off to be on the main board which gives more details as to intermediate stops. In short, in a one hour time span there are probably 25 or 30 intercity trains departing this station. 

All this is to say that if you are planning a trip to England and you are worrying about how you will get around (like I was) and wondering and if maybe you should rent a car or schedule everything out in great detail in advance my advice would be don’t. The trains go every where, all the time. That is hard for anyone to fathom about a train system, but it is true. Just show up to a train station and within thirty minutes, probably much less, you will be on a train going where ever you want to go. The only proviso to this is if you are on a tight budget you may wish to purchase tickets in advance because they cost less. But if you don’t mind paying a bit more (and I always found the prices very reasonable) just show up at the last minute and go.

Next I started heading up to the Metropolitan Cathederal.


100_2066 by 600West218, on Flickr

On the way to the Cathederal you pass a bunch of university buildings and even a research center.


100_2068 by 600West218, on Flickr


The Cathederal


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As you can see it is a very modern building, futuristic even. Interestingly, I couldn’t do much there because the BBC had taken over the entire sanctuary and was filming some British television show. I saw them do several takes of one seen with a man sitting in a pew reading a book, then looking over his shoulder at a woman sitting behind him, and finally getting up by himself and walking out. If anyone in England sees that scene, I saw it being filmed !!

I then headed over to the Aglican Cathederal which is actually rather close as you can see from this picture:


100_2071 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2072 by 600West218, on Flickr

An interesting burned out building. Not sure what that was damaged by - bombing in the Blitz maybe? 


100_2074 by 600West218, on Flickr

Then I wandered onto a big university and so I walked around the campus a bit. It seemed very nice:


100_2075 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2076 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2078 by 600West218, on Flickr

In the US any sort of social program is generally portrayed in a negative light - and it the general impression given of European universities and health care facilities is that they are run down and not very good. Yet from what I saw on this trip they seemed every bit as good, and many times better, than what you would see in the U.S. This is why travel is important - so you can see things for yourself rather than just getting impressions from the media or others who may have an agenda. There is just no substitute for seeing things for yourself.

Finally, I made it to the Anglican Cathederal and went inside. What an awe inspiring building.


100_2079 by 600West218, on Flickr

In one of the memorials on the side they had this - which was nice to read given that I was starting to get a little down on being an American:


100_2080 by 600West218, on Flickr

Back outside:


100_2082 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2083 by 600West218, on Flickr

Then walking down into the cementery I found the tomb of William Husskinson who was a MP from Liverpool and is widely said to be the first person run over and killed by a train. 


100_2084 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2085 by 600West218, on Flickr

Walking up the path on the way out of the museum some of the head stones caught my attention and I stopped to read them. If you take a minute and read these it will probably give you a new perspective on whatever problems you have in your own life:


100_2086 by 600West218, on Flickr


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With that, I walked back to the Lime Street Station and, within a few minutes, got a train to Manchester. The train ride to Manchester is really quick and I didn’t have the chance to take pictures of the countryside. But not to worry, on other train rides I got plenty of pictues.

And here is Piccadilly Station in Manchester. Just from the train station I could tell Manchester was bigger than Liverpool


100_2092 by 600West218, on Flickr


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I stopped at the information booth to get a map and then went out to start exploring, really having no idea where I was going.


100_2097 by 600West218, on Flickr


The pictures are just what I saw walking out the front door and walking down the big street I was on.


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I was gradually walking down Piccadilly London Road (occassionally going onto a side street) for those who know the area.


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This is called Piccaddilly Gardens


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Like Liverpool, the streets were crowded with people and bustling with activity.


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Instead of a train system like Liverpool Manchester has a tram. Great. Now beside just looking out for cars driving on the left hand side out of the street I have to look out for trams too!


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For the size city it is you would think they would have a full scale subway rather than a tram. Though I did use it once and it was nice.


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At this point I had probably spent 45 minutes walking which was enough to form an initial impression of Manchester, and it wasn’t a favourable one.

I’m not sure if you can notice it from the pictures but where as Liverpool had seemed to have lots of graceful old building and newer buildings that fit in with the older stuff Manchester didn’t. It seemed to be a complete hodgepodge of buildings thrown together in an incongruent way. Some buildings were nice and interesting - but a fair number were down right ugly and soulless buildings probably built in the 40s or 50s. Nothing seemed to go together - it was just a huge jumble of all different types of structures shoved together - a bit like Manhattan if you will but without the awe inspiring size and dynamism that allows Manhattan to work. At this point I was sort of missing Liverpool. [for Manchester fans don’t worry, my first impression would later be radically changed].

Well, at least this store was interesting with all its sowing machines:


100_2122 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2124 by 600West218, on Flickr

A bit further along I saw what looked like a shopping mall. Not liking what I was seeing outdoors I decided I might as well go inside.


100_2125 by 600West218, on Flickr

It wasn’t just a shopping mall. It was a huge shopping mall. With lots of people shopping at decidedly upscale and expensive stores. Clearly at least part of British society isn’t doing to badly.


100_2126 by 600West218, on Flickr

But you don’t fly across the Atlantic to see shopping malls. Plenty of those here. So back outdoors I went... only to bump into this:


100_2127 by 600West218, on Flickr

Thinking I had nothing to lose I decided to ride it to get a better view of Manchester and orient myself. Sadly, it was raining too much to see well, and the the tacky narration by some rock radio hosts did nothing to orient me to Manchester or endear me to it.

I did though see the Manchester Cathederal was close so I decided to hear over to it.


100_2129 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2130 by 600West218, on Flickr

Hmm, just realized the office tower has the same name as the mall. Not sure what the significance of that is.


100_2133 by 600West218, on Flickr

Next I wandered into an interesting looking arcade like building that turned out to be the old corn exchange:


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Some supposedly VERY old pubs that would often get quite crowded. A very popular watering hole apparently.


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Again, you see some really appealing stuff... and then some not very appealing stuff:


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Finally, the Cathederal, which is much older than the one in Liverpool. Very, very old in fact.


100_2147 by 600West218, on Flickr

It is also much smaller than the one in Liverpool.


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It didn’t have the imposing size of Liverpool, but it did have tremendous character that showed how old it was.


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An amazing room dedicated to Britian’s military men and women. It has the colors struck from different military units - some of them obviously quite old.


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Not sure if these are people who simply served, or if they are people who died.

Well, in this case the answer is obvious:


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Too many wars:


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Very interestingly this church has ties to a church in my home town of New York City


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Leaving the church I looked to head down Deansgate Road. I knew that there was a nice old library down this street and that it lead to the Castle Field area where the industrial revolution was said to have begun.


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Quite an impressive old building. Turns out, this was the library.


100_2164 by 600West218, on Flickr

I don’t have more time to write now so I will have to finish my first day in Manchester tomorrow. But stay tuned - despite my initial unfavourable reaction to Manchester things will start to get very interesting!!


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## streetlegal (Sep 7, 2008)

Very much enjoying your thread. I love industrial architecture (Milwaulkee excels in this, as do some of America's neglected rust belt cities, from what I have seen).

When I grew up in the 1970's and 80's, Northern English cities were very looked down upon. Your thread (and others' on this forum) show the potential they have, despite the fact that they were left to rot for so long. 

I love the urban grit of Manchester--not to everyone's taste, but it is to mine. 

I have completely changed my view of Liverpool's Anglican cathedral. I used to find it rather chunky and too retro in design--but the inside especially is inspiring. I look forward to visiting it one day.


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## VoldemortBlack (Oct 31, 2009)

So upsetting that your first view of Manchester was depressing, I guess the weather didn't help! hno: Looking forward to more


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

Liverpool definitely looks more pleasant to the eye but I believe Manchester takes the lead as a city and I definitely prefer Manchester's modern buildings.

Anyway, very helpful comments, keep up the good work!


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

First impressions based on train arrivals are often not good. When I first visited Manchester by train, I wondered what all of the fuss was about.

Likewise, Lime Street, immediately outside of Lime street station in Liverpool - is perhaps the worst street in the city centre - in terms of decay & degeneration.

So, it is necessary to wander at length, and to get off the tourist trail - anywhere you go.

I cannot agree that Manchester is a better city, though - in any way. Perhaps you mean that it has had a lot more investment for a lot longer?


It must be very interesting for foreign visitors - especially from large countries, to see the variety and the close proximity of British towns and cities.

Considering that close proximity - few people in Britain have actually ever visited many of their own cities - other than London. hno:


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

openlyJane said:


> I cannot agree that Manchester is a better city, though - in any way. Perhaps you mean that it has had a lot more investment for a lot longer?


Is this directed at me? In no way did I mean Manchester is a better city, I find Liverpool much more charismatic but yes Manchester has received a lot more investment and that shows.


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## LondonFox (Nov 4, 2010)

600West218 said:


> Note it is flying the Union Jack, rather than the English flag. It seems completely arbitrary which building flies which flag. I wonder who decides - the janitor? If you didn’t know better you could think the country was on the verge of the civil war.




The United Kingdom is 4 countries don't forget... we are linked in union but have our own cultures etc... unlike the US which forged its states together and made it mandatory to fly only one flag for all of them at a National level.. in the UK it is not uncommon for either the Union flag to fly from a building or that countries flag...

All government buildings however across the UK are usually showing the Union Flag... be it in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.... however local buildings can pick and choose, depending on whether it is a national event .. or a local one... or if they just feel like it.

I think it is important that people and local councils are allowed to fly their own flags or the nations flag... it encourages the key cultural differences inside the United Kingdom to remain intact and alive.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

PortoNuts said:


> Is this directed at me? In no way did I mean Manchester is a better city, I find Liverpool much more charismatic but yes Manchester has received a lot more investment and that shows.


 Should have used these ^^ to make it clear I was referencing your point.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

"The United Kingdom is 4 countries don't forget"

I guess I understand that it is four different peoples all with their own histories have they always been considered different countries legally? For example, isn't their having their own parliments rather new?

Seeing people there think of themselves as "English", or "Scottich", or "Welch" rather than British was definitely an eye opener for me.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

"Considering that close proximity - few people in Britain have actually ever visited many of their own cities - other than London. "

Yes, that is really stunning, especially considering how goof and convenient their rail network is. You could actually make a day trip out of traveling to most cities if you wanted to - certainly a very nice weekend trip. If I lived there I'd be pissing away a fortune on train tickets


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## chase_me (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks again for those photos! I agree that alot of cities don't have very grand or good first impressions when you get off the train, the only one which struck me when traveling around was Newcastle I think. And yes Manchester is quite a mismatch of styles...the war and the 50-70s were not great for the city or indeed many cities in the uk, as many old buildings were torn down. But it has meant that newer builds have been able to be built in future/adds to the mix of building styles. If you wanted to see the uniform Victorian mixed with the older builds which used to exist in Manchester, you can check it out in the council online photo archives.


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## Ecological (Mar 19, 2009)

Great Pictures.

Have to say though. You came over to look at Industrial Britain and you didn't visit Birmingham? The main player in it and the city that carried it through all the way to the end. 

As an American I thought it would've been high on your list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Society_of_Birmingham

Least 2 of our sons are recognised as off yesterday


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## 1878EFC (Jun 24, 2006)

Liverpool and Manchester are both fantastic cities in their own right and in some cases a similar way and in some cases a very different way.


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

Ecological said:


> Great Pictures.
> 
> Have to say though. You came over to look at Industrial Britain and you didn't visit Birmingham? The main player in it and the city that carried it through all the way to the end.
> 
> ...


Tons of towns could be added to this trip but time is limited.

Derby, for example, screams Industrial Revolution.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

Great photos!

Many many places in Europe have loads of 1950s and 60s buildings in the town centres for a fairly obvious reason I think, and major cities in the UK are no exception


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## aarhusforever (Jun 15, 2010)

Please keep the photos coming


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

600West218 said:


> "Considering that close proximity - few people in Britain have actually ever visited many of their own cities - other than London. "
> 
> Yes, that is really stunning, especially considering how goof and convenient their rail network is. You could actually make a day trip out of traveling to most cities if you wanted to - certainly a very nice weekend trip. If I lived there I'd be pissing away a fortune on train tickets


I think people do visit other cities actually quite often, I think most people have probably been to many of them at some point by the time they have a few years under their belt.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

VoldemortBlack said:


> So upsetting that your first view of Manchester was depressing, I guess the weather didn't help! hno: Looking forward to more


That stretch from Piccadilly Station to Piccadilly Gardens and the Arndale isn't the best introduction....


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## Pennypacker (Mar 23, 2010)

DanielFigFoz said:


> Great photos!
> 
> Many many places in Europe have loads of 1950s and 60s buildings in the town centres for a fairly obvious reason I think, and major cities in the UK are no exception


The difference is though, that whereas across most of Europe it was mostly always due to bomb damage from the war, in post war UK they just tore down stucturally sound old buildings for the sake of it, often in the name of "progress". And I'm not just talking about slum clearances (which in my view were wrong but were a necessary evil) which saw dense urban metropolises like this: 










turn into this in the space of 30 years: 










...but also fine buildings like the Imperial hotel being replaced with something that can only be described as grotesque:



















You really do have to question the sanity of some of Britain's post war planners and architects. What the hell were they thinking?


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## LondonFox (Nov 4, 2010)

600West218 said:


> "The United Kingdom is 4 countries don't forget"
> 
> I guess I understand that it is four different peoples all with their own histories have they always been considered different countries legally? For example, isn't their having their own parliments rather new?
> 
> Seeing people there think of themselves as "English", or "Scottich", or "Welch" rather than British was definitely an eye opener for me.




England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (later the Republic of Ireland - yet the Northern territories chose to remain in the Union, becoming Northern Ireland) were all different countries to start with... different laws, religions, cultures etc etc... 

The Union you see today (in terms of how long the countries have existed) .. is only a reasonably recent event... some 300 odd years ago. That is when we were all tied together and the Union Flag came into being... however, it was always a complex beast.. each country retained many of its own laws.

Wales I believe was annexed to England first politically in 1535, followed by the crown of Ireland act which the Irish parliament proclaimed that the English king and his successors would also be king of Ireland in 1542... 

Then the English monarchy and the Scottish monarchy were joined in 1603 (Union of the Crowns).. yet both countries remained sovereign states until 1707 when the treaty of Union came in affect, linking Wales (part of England at the time) England and Scotland into one nation.

In 1801, Ireland came into the fold fully (after other various links that were unpopular) creating The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Bearing in mind this is a VERY quick and vague explanation of things...

In 1920, however, Ireland passed an act which gave them freedom from Westminster and established their own home rule.. however, the Northern Irish states wished to remain British.. and so the country of Northern Ireland was created and the island of Ireland was partitioned with a new border.

Short of the long... we were all separate countries first... the Union flag is very new compared to the flags of England, Scotland.. etc etc..

"Britishness", is as old as the Union Flag, and was a necessity for being the engine for Empire. As the British Empire ended and was succeeded by the Commonwealth of Nations as it is today... the 'Home Nations' England, Scotland, Wales, N.I... began to re recognise their own roots again... and so came the re introduction of devolved governments for each country to deal with their own local affairs again, Westminster however, remains the 'Master Government'.


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## Ecological (Mar 19, 2009)

PortoNuts said:


> Tons of towns could be added to this trip but time is limited.
> 
> Derby, for example, screams Industrial Revolution.


Indeed.

But to miss out the most important city of the industrial revolution is a bit strange if that's what he visited for.

There is a reason why it holds tags as ... "Workshop of the World", "Worlds First Industrial Town", "City Of A Thousand Trades".

It's the reason so many canals were built (Ala the old chesnut, more than Venice)

And the reason why Benjamin Franklin was a member of the Lunar Society that frequently met in Birmingham. 

Birmingham and its surroudnign area even to this day still hosts more then half of all UK patents. 

Just think it's a little weird that's all.


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## Pennypacker (Mar 23, 2010)

Define "most important".


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

Interesting to see the Manchester cathedral connected with St. John the Devine (St. John the Unfinished) in New York. St. John the Devine tries to quarrel with Liverpool on being the biggest cathedral.

By the way, regarding the store with sewing machines in window, I think we have the same store in Boston on Newbury Street. Is it the same store? Is it a UK company? Forgive me for posting Boston pics, but just for point of reference. This is the Boston store:


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## VoldemortBlack (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes it's an All Saints store  Not sure if it's British or not. There's another store in Manchester full of sewing machines in the window too


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

He could have also visited Glasgow, which was once another manufacturing powerhouse and still is thanks to shipbuilding. Like I said, we don't know how his schedule was.

If he came through Manchester Airport and time was tight, it makes sense he preferred to stay in that corridor around the Northeast. 

Birmingham and its surroundings would probably require a trip on its own, especially with Coventry on its door step. 



Ecological said:


> Indeed.
> 
> But to miss out the most important city of the industrial revolution is a bit strange if that's what he visited for.
> 
> ...


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## Ecological (Mar 19, 2009)

Pennypacker said:


> Define "most important".


Where would you like me to start? With the Steam Engine? Petrol Driven Car? Where do you think the term Watt came from? Horsepower? Crank Engine? Letter Copying Machine even the Ink to go with it? Gears? Coinage Coppier? Leather? The Stove? Gas Lighting? Even the first ever transatlantic telegraph cable some 16,000 miles long was made in Birmingham? The Whistle? What you see on Skateboards and Roller Skates was thanks to a Birmingham inventor with a unique axel. Used in many automobiles and machinery today also. X Rays? 



> The Industrial Revolution was powered by Birmingham's ingenuity and has been described by The Daily Telegraph newspaper as a city which created the Industrial Revolution.
> 
> In the year 2000, of the 4,000 inventions copyrighted in the UK, 2,800 came from within a 35-mile radius of Birmingham. Peter Colegate of the Patent Office stated that "Every year, Birmingham amazes us by coming up with thousands of inventions. It is impossible to explain but people in the area seem to have a remarkable ability to come up with, and have the dedication to produce, ideas."


Anyway. Back on topic. Great pictures. One day do come visit Birmingham and it's quarters.


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## LondonFox (Nov 4, 2010)

Expat said:


> By the way, I think we have the same store in Boston on Newbury Street. Is it the same store? Is it a UK company? Forgive me for posting Boston pics, but just for point of reference. This is the Boston store:




AllSaints Spitalfields Clothing is a British company yes. Spitalfields is a parish in London.


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## Londonladinleeds (Jun 19, 2011)

Brilliant pictures.

Really looking forward to Leeds ASAP!!


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## EuxTex (Dec 26, 2009)

Expat said:


> By the way, regarding the store with sewing machines in window, I think we have the same store in Boston on Newbury Street.


Sad to hear of the demise of Filenes. Did you know that the term, "Bargain basement" originated at Filenes?


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## EuxTex (Dec 26, 2009)

PortoNuts said:


> Birmingham and its surroundings would probably require a trip on its own, especially with Coventry on its door step.


True, very true.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

Jonesy55 said:


> I think people do visit other cities actually quite often, I think most people have probably been to many of them at some point by the time they have a few years under their belt.


Don't agree with you there at all. When I lived in Buckinghamshire, for example - it really was true that people almost, did think the north of england was a foreign country.

Most people, anywhere in the world, tend not to venture too far from their own back yard. Many British people know more about Spain or the Canary Islands, for example, than they do about other parts of Britain.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

LondonFox said:


> England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (later the Republic of Ireland - yet the Northern territories chose to remain in the Union, becoming Northern Ireland) were all different countries to start with... different laws, religions, cultures etc etc...
> 
> The Union you see today (in terms of how long the countries have existed) .. is only a reasonably recent event... some 300 odd years ago. That is when we were all tied together and the Union Flag came into being... however, it was always a complex beast.. each country retained many of its own laws.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation! It may have been brief but it is actually very helpful to me.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

On the Birmingham issue I actually did have it on my itinerary at one point.

I spent a lot of time planning this and got LOTS of invaluable help from the people in the UK skybar in this thread:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1436915

I ultimately decided that trying to cover Birmingham in this one two week trip would be too much and I am glad I made that decision. But the last several days of this trip I was quite worn down and tired and really burned out of seeing museums.

For instance, I was in York my second to last day and went to the rail museum there. It is a phenomenal world class museum. But I just didn't have the energy to do it justice and only spent a couple hours there when the museum really merritted the greater part of a day.

I really want to go to Birmingham. I must see the "iron" town outside it where the first iron bridge was built and I have heard Birmingham has more canals than everywhere else - and as you'll see soon in this thread I LOVE canals. But Birmingham needs to be the first 4 or 5 days on a separate trip to do it justice so I am glad I didn't try to squeeze it in on this one.

The UK has so much to see it will be 4 or 5 two weeks trips even to cover the basics of what I want to see. And each time I go I will add to the list. Now I want to do a trip hiking accross England by following the canals. Also, people in Liverpool told me that if I liked Liverpool and old industrial cities I should definitely go to Belfast. So now Ireland is on my list of places to go.

No one can do it all at once... we just have to do what we can and keep plugging away.


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

600West218, you cannot be blamed for not visiting every city! You have shown us much already. All the more reason to return!


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## Darloeye (Jun 15, 2010)

VoldemortBlack said:


> Yes it's an All Saints store  Not sure if it's British or not. There's another store in Manchester full of sewing machines in the window too


Also one in Newcastle.


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## Steel City Suburb (Jun 13, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllSaints_(clothing)


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## yoshef (Jun 22, 2007)

:applause: Splendid stuff 600West218, I'll try and fill in some of the blanks so to speak.


This is St Andrew's Church:-











It is due to be restored and turned into student flats...




buggedboy said:


> Planning application now in. Apparently all the funding for this has been secured, including a Heritage grant. They have sold all the units to investors too.
> 
> 100 student bedrooms.
> 
> http://northgate.liverpool.gov.uk/P...kins/Liverpool_M3/Menus/PL.xml&DAURI=PLANNING




The two adjacent buildings are The College of Technology and Museum extension on the left, and The William Brown Museum and Library on the Right. Today, they both form the World Museum:-













This building is County Sessions House, a former court house.













This sculpture is called the Spirit of Liverpool, and sits atop the Walker Art Gallery. It is actually a replica of the original artwork, which had deteriorated to such a poor condition it was feared that a piece might break off, fall through the glass dome on top of the gallery and join the sculptures on display in the gallery itself!










Liverpool Central Library sits between the World Museum and the Walker Art Gallery, but it is currently being redeveloped, hence the scaffolding and tower cranes. Normally, that part of the ensemble looks like this:-









image by Bernard Rose


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Wow, thanks for the information Yoshef.

Why is the St. Andrews church in that state? Was there a fire? 

Also, you mention a museum above - is it open to the public and if so what does it contain?


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## yoshef (Jun 22, 2007)

I think the church has been closed for years, and left to rot like much of Liverpool during the 70s, 80s and 90s. Pretty sure that it has been set on fire too :yes:


The World Museum is actually the city's main, general museum, surprised you didn't pop in for a nosey. There's loads of info on Wikipedia and the museum's website.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Museum

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/wml/


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

ah ok, it is sort of a Museum of Natural History. Those I wasn't visiting. Only if it had exhibits specifically on Liverpool would I have been interested.

Thanks for the information. It's quite helpful


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## Chadoh25 (Dec 28, 2007)

AWESOME photos! Keep it up!


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

In the previous photo post I had finally arrived in Manchester and was getting oriented to the city center - which I was discovering is quite big. I wandered down Deangate Street and ran into the John Rylands LIbrary which is very famous and quite old:


100_2164 by 600West218, on Flickr

It is open to the public so I went inside. You actually enter in a new annex and see something like this where the buildings have been joined:


100_2166 by 600West218, on Flickr

Entering the old building I walked up several flights of stairs to get to the main reading room. 


100_2167 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2168 by 600West218, on Flickr



Interestingly, I often take visiters to New York City to the Main Research Library on 42nd Street and up to the huge open reading rooms on the 3rd floor which are quite impressive. This is the same sort of room, but completely different. Whereas the one in NY is a huge open room with hundreds of people and lots of distractions (including more than a few tourists!) the one in John Ryland was somewhat smaller and much more intimate. In fact, the actual study areas where tucked away in little alcoves to the side of the room which gave people a fair amount of privacy and freedom from distractions.

I didn’t think it appropriate to direct pictures of people but here you can partly see where people study:


100_2169 by 600West218, on Flickr

Turns out, you are not supposed to take pictures here at all but I still snuck in one more of the entranceway:


100_2170 by 600West218, on Flickr

They also had a very large exhibit on the history of various books but I didn’t have time to take that in.


100_2172 by 600West218, on Flickr

Looking along the side:


100_2173 by 600West218, on Flickr

And in good Manchester form next door was an ultra modern glass building with a completely glass entrance to a chic underground eatery.


100_2175 by 600West218, on Flickr

Continueing on down Deansgate:


100_2177 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2178 by 600West218, on Flickr

One thing that I noticed, unless my perceptions are mistaken, was that Liverpool had more stone structures in its center whereas Manchester seemed almost entirely brick. Not 100% sure if that is true, but it is my perception. Don’t know why that would be. Maybe there are more quarey’s around Liverpool?


100_2179 by 600West218, on Flickr

Now, this is a strange picture:


100_2180 by 600West218, on Flickr

The reason I say it is strange is that in this picture this warehouse looks small for some reason whereas in reality it is HUGE. Not Tobacco Warehouse size but certainly very big. I don’t know what its history is but it impressed me and I would go in it a couple times later.


100_2181 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2182 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2183 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2184 by 600West218, on Flickr

This is the Hilton Hotel and if the information given on the ferris wheel is correct it is the tallest building in Manchester. By American standards this isn’t bad but by British standards it is rather dull.


100_2185 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2186 by 600West218, on Flickr

100_2188 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2189 by 600West218, on Flickr

The Hilton as seen from the other side of the tracks:


100_2191 by 600West218, on Flickr

Ok, this seems to be a canal or mill race of some sort. Things are getting interesting:


100_2192 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2193 by 600West218, on Flickr

Ok, that was clearly some old brick work, and old bridge and an artificial waterway. My pulse rate is starting to pick up.


100_2194 by 600West218, on Flickr

Ok, paydirt. These signs clearly tell me I’m in thee right place (besides being interesting in and of themselves)


100_2195 by 600West218, on Flickr

Canal boats... this is getting better by the minute.


100_2196 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2197 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2198 by 600West218, on Flickr

Pretty big motor boat for a inland city that isn’t even on a lake. Looking back on it now, that was really just an indication of how big their canal network is.


100_2199 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2200 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2201 by 600West218, on Flickr

Its really good that they reuse these buildings and in that way keep them around. I suppose you can’t simply keep them empty and authentic looking and in the process turn a big section of your city into a museum. Still, I wish they could somehow do this while retaining a bit more of the authenticity of the buildings.


100_2203 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2204 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2205 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2206 by 600West218, on Flickr

One little factoid I never bothered to find out while there is how deep these canals are. I am guessing somewheres between 5 and 8 feet. I actually bought a book that probably says how deep they are and I’ll have to look it up unless someone here knows.


100_2207 by 600West218, on Flickr

This was right by the canal and I think it might have been an old house for the overseer of that section of the canal.


100_2208 by 600West218, on Flickr

Ok, here you can start to see the most dominant feature of this area - three huge viaducts carrying trains over the canal area. Actually, I first saw these from the train when I had just arrived in England and was riding from the Manchester Airport to Liverpool. Their massive brick and steel structures were quite impressive as seen from the train and that was when I first thought to myself “I am going to like this place”.


100_2209 by 600West218, on Flickr

Notice the canal has widened out into a pretty significant body of water. I think what happened here was there were factories and warehouses all over this area and each of them built extensions of the canals right up to their buildings so they could ship and receive goods. Hence this whole area is laced with waterways.


100_2210 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2211 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2212 by 600West218, on Flickr

Not sure who lived there.


100_2213 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2214 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2215 by 600West218, on Flickr

I guess some people were already in the Halloween mood.


100_2216 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2217 by 600West218, on Flickr

I know some have commented that it is a shame it rained some of the time I was there. Frankly, I think the clouds and rain added to the character of the place.


100_2218 by 600West218, on Flickr

Truly spectactular. I know its just an old warehouse but I would put this building right up there with Liverpools’ Three Graces in terms of “wow” factor. Why don’t architects design stuff like this any more?


100_2219 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2221 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2224 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2225 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2226 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2227 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2228 by 600West218, on Flickr

Ok, here you can see the big brick and iron viaduct in the foreground, the huge steel one immediately behind it, and another brick one in the distance. You know how we often know have huge highway interchanges? Well, I guess you could say this is the 19th century version of that. This could well have been one of the world’s busiest transportation centers in the world.

When this place was at its peak of activity (1880?) it really must have been an amazing beehive of activity. To bad movies and even still photography had yet to be invented. (though if anyone knows of any really old pictures of this area online PLEASE do share the link!)


100_2229 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2231 by 600West218, on Flickr

Interesting combination of the very mondern seen through the very old.


100_2233 by 600West218, on Flickr

Trains were going by all the time on the viaducts. That looks like it might actually be a tram.


100_2235 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2236 by 600West218, on Flickr

I know it is a poor quality photo but you can see how the canals were built right into the buildings.


100_2237 by 600West218, on Flickr

Walking a bit further down along the canals I came to a number of huge and super sleek apartment buildings.


100_2238 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2239 by 600West218, on Flickr

Not sure if I’d want to live in a fully see through apartment 


100_2240 by 600West218, on Flickr

Notice how a canal branches off from the larger body of water.


100_2241 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2242 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2243 by 600West218, on Flickr

Some high end graffitti and the train on the right is actually a NYC subway.


100_2244 by 600West218, on Flickr

In probably 100 yards I’ve gone from super old brick warehouses to this. That is Manchester for you. It takes some getting use to but with time it does grow on you.


100_2245 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2248 by 600West218, on Flickr

These may have been about the only cows I ever saw in England. Thinking back on it I saw plenty of horses and an absurd number of sheep but not much in the way of cattle. In fact, I can’t recall even seeing barns. Do they import all their milk?

It was starting to get late and I had to get back to the center of town and catch a bus to southern Manchester (down by the southern cemetary) where I would be staying with a CouchSurfer. The fact that bus drivers were so helpful and shouted out to me when I needed to get off the bus was a real life saver.

Speaking of bus drivers there was another thing that completely amazed me. In England, you don’t need to have exact change to ride a bus. The bus drivers have money and make change. Even stranger, they aren’t enclosed behind bullet proof plexiglass or anything. They would seem to be sitting ducks to be robbed, but apparently they aren’t. If that was tried in the US there would probably be a lot of dead bus drivers.

Anyways, I got by bearings and tried to walk the most direct route back to the Piccadilly Gardens area where the bus station was.


100_2249 by 600West218, on Flickr

The Town Hall. What else could it be? During my trip I went to four major cities and each one of them had a huge and spectacular town hall. Very sadly, I never managed to get into a single one (and I did try).


100_2251 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2252 by 600West218, on Flickr

I think a big part of the purpose of these Town Halls was just to show how much money the city had.


100_2253 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2254 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2255 by 600West218, on Flickr


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100_2258 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2259 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2261 by 600West218, on Flickr


This was a fairly decent sized Chinatown. 


100_2262 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_2264 by 600West218, on Flickr

I finally made it to the bus station. Caught the 111 bus and made it safely to the home where I was staying. Thankfully England is an easy and safe place to travel!


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

You are not kidding, this got better by the minute. Love the canals, warehouses, and then modern apartment buildings. And all of it!

The library looks like a cathedral.

The US is looking lame after seeing your tour of Liverpool & Manchesterhno:.


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## streetlegal (Sep 7, 2008)

Man, I am salivating at those canal-side warehouses. Victorians take a lot of flack--but it beats me how their WAREHOUSES are more dramatic, engaging and invigorating than most modern buildings . . . 

I suspect Manchester is something of an acquired taste--you have to work at it a little--but I found, from your pictures, it well worth the work. Love it!


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

openlyJane said:


> Don't agree with you there at all. When I lived in Buckinghamshire, for example - it really was true that people almost, did think the north of england was a foreign country.
> 
> Most people, anywhere in the world, tend not to venture too far from their own back yard. Many British people know more about Spain or the Canary Islands, for example, than they do about other parts of Britain.


I guess there are people like that but just thinking of all the people I know for example I doubt there is anybody who hasn't been to London, 90% have visited Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool at some point as they are close, most will have to Leeds, Sheffield, Bristol, Edinburgh, Cardiff etc at least once. Also smaller tourist cities like York, Chester, Cambridge, Bath etc are well known and coastal cities like Brighton and Bournemouth are visited a lot.

Maybe fewer have been to places like Nottingham or Plymouth or Swansea but still many have. Cities like Aberdeen and Belfast are probably the least commonly visited by people here.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Anyway, more great photos, I'm glad Manchester grew on you after a while. Personally I really like the combination of old and new though I guess if you've come to see old then the new isn't what you want to see.

Regarding cows, there are millions in the UK and I don't think any fresh milk is imported. It's just that the hilly, upland areas of northern England you travelled through are more suited to sheep farming.


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## Caiman (Jul 11, 2003)

Glad you got off Market Street and carried on down Deansgate and found your way around Castlefield. I used to walk the very same route every day when I lived in one of those four modern tower blocks you photographed at the far end of Castlefield, St Georges Island. Never got bored of it. As with your trip around Liverpool, it’s really fascinating to see the city through your eyes, am pleased that there’s more to come!


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

The Arndale area is improving, I remember when the whole shopping centre was covered in those beige 'public toilet' style tiles like the tower, it was cramped and dark inside and there was a dirty indoor bus station choked with diesel fumes..

Now the interior is much improved, much of the exterior also looks better and the buses have moved to a new improved home.


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## 1878EFC (Jun 24, 2006)

The little hut on the canal side is ducks 

Great pictures by the way.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

yoshef said:


> I think the church has been closed for years, and left to rot like much of Liverpool during the 70s, 80s and 90s. Pretty sure that it has been set on fire too :yes:
> 
> 
> The World Museum is actually the city's main, general museum, surprised you didn't pop in for a nosey. There's loads of info on Wikipedia and the museum's website.
> ...


I've also got a few photos of some of the exhibits on my thread.


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## Chogmook (Oct 15, 2002)

Wonderful pictures so far of both our fantastic cities! 

I'm hoping you ventured around Whitworth Street and Oxford Road in Manchester for some more great architecture!

Did you check out Worsley by the way? A few miles from the city centre, but played a very important role in the Industrial Revolution in the Manchester area & beyond. 

:cheers:


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## chase_me (Jul 19, 2009)

Hey good to see your updates again and il dig up some photos of castlefield, they'll be knocking around somewhere - the council only had one photo dating back only to 1960s and it didnt show much. As for the town hall, I don't ink many people can go in at the moment as it's being refurbished along with central library. In the 40 or 50s there was a plan to demolish most of Manchester and it wasn't decided whether the town hall would stay or it, as there were two plans...luckily they didn't have enough money to carry these plans out though a fair few buildings on Portland street were demolished...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Warehouse. Also that gives a few details about the great northern warehouse you saw in front of the Hilton/Beetham tower. This next one has loads of photos of Manchester separated into sections and topics http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/Manchesterview2.html. 
This one gives some pics people have taken of the canal/tunnels underneath it (great northern). http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=53777


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## Bristol Mike (Aug 5, 2007)

Rain in Manchester?! How strange... (that's all I've heard it do in Manchester).

Fantastic tour of the city, it looks great even in such weather. Loving this thread. Look forward to more!


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## Pennypacker (Mar 23, 2010)

Bristol Mike said:


> Rain in Manchester?! How strange... (that's all I've heard it do in Manchester).


Bristol actually gets just as much rain as Manchester.


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## Joydivison82 (Sep 21, 2009)

Doesn't always rain in Manchester at all  There are a lot wetter places.

Pure blue sky here at the moment.

Did you get down to Salford Quays on your travels? Some stunning views there, although its nearly all post 1990.


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## streetlegal (Sep 7, 2008)

Thoroughly engrossing--I love the way you tell a story through pictures, and, as someone who has experienced the "strangeness" of discovering a country for the first time, I identify with your commentaries.

You remind me of the quirkiness of England--something I miss.


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## cpwken (Sep 6, 2009)

openlyJane said:


> Newcastle and Cardiff also have Victorian arcades - still in use.


There's also quite a few in London.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

A great little trip around West Yorkshire. I loved your sheep adventure. :lol:

There's a town called Hebden Bridge - a characterful place - with a section of canal;( the Bronte sisters lived in nearby Haworth) - and when you get up onto the moors, you understand where the inspiration for the novel "Wuthering Heights' came from.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

openlyJane said:


> Newcastle and Cardiff also have Victorian arcades - still in use.


Birmingham has a couple too, and the Barton Arcade in Manchester I Victorian I think.


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## Londonladinleeds (Jun 19, 2011)

The only place that has as many as Leeds is London....which has loads, especially around Picadilly, Bond Street, Regent Street and Covent Garden.

The area betwen the Headrow and King Edward Street and Albion Street and Vicar Lane in Leeds is truly exceptional.

I believe Briggate and Albion Street are both in the top 10 streets in the country in terms of footfall. The new Trinity Centre, (1 million sq feet) sits bang in the middle of this area and will move Leeds to 4th in the UK in terms of retail sq feet, after the West End of London, Birmingham and just behind Glasgow, (which also has some beautiful arcades come to think of it!)


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## LondonFox (Nov 4, 2010)

@ 600West218

Couple of random things...

The lions you saw at the town hall, you mentioned (probably in jest) that someone was copying someone with regards to the library in NYC.

The Lion is a national symbol of England (and therefore of the United Kingdom) and has been for many many centuries. I am not sure quite how far back the lion as a symbol of England goes, but if you think King Richard I of England (The Lion Heart) lived in 1157 - it may give you some sort of a picture as to when it was first used here... maybe even before that.

You will see the lion appear on much of England's brands, buildings, flags and elsewhere... from the shirts the England football team wear (three lions - the same three lions that reside on the Royal Standard of England).



















To the Royal Coat of Arms of the UK..








(The Unicorn is Scotland's national animal symbol)

To many other things.... even simple things such as eggs are branded with a lion stamp to denote quality of product in the UK.

Another national symbol of England that you may have noticed on many of the photographs you have taken.. is the Tudor Rose..










You will see this everywhere, from on coins, to buildings (incorporated into intricate sculptures around doors to again, national brands).. See the history of the rose for more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Roses


Another thing I have noticed, is that in a few of your later photos... the Union Flag is flying at half mast... and reason for this anyone?


Then, onto those hideous things... SUV's.... I have no idea why you didn't see many of them... they are everywhere in Southern England.  especially the suburb areas of London.

I am glad that you made it to Yorkshire though (God's Own County)... I have family heritage from there.. it is beautiful.

When you return to England, I suggest you visit the south too (looking at your interest in Roman Britain a few pages back).. go and see the City of Bath - the whole place is a world heritage site.. and your camera will probably break through excessive usage.


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## PadArch (Apr 1, 2010)

^^
Definately agree.. Northern England is one thing, but its a whole different world to the south east, and the south west is again completely different. I'd venture that England has as at least as much variation as any country, just packed into a much smaller area.


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## Smarty (Jun 14, 2006)

Bournemouth has two Victorian shopping arcades still in use as well and Norwich has the Royal Arcade. There are still quite a few dotted over the country.

I'm really enjoying your visit. There was a programme on the BBC last night all about canals, called The Golden Age of Canals. I'm not sure if you can get this over there but it's available on the BBC iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01173hf/The_Golden_Age_of_Canals/

I have a friend in Arizona who watches programmes on the iPlayer but he used to have to fool it into thinking he's in the UK - using a proxy IP I think. I'm not sure if he still has to do that.


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## Piltup Man (May 21, 2010)

London Fox


> I am not sure quite how far back the lion as a symbol of England goes


I think it probably has its origins with the Norman invasion; this is the flag of Normandy:










600West218, this is a superb thread. I look forward to your impressions of Sheffield as I was born there.


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## LondonFox (Nov 4, 2010)

Piltup Man said:


> London Fox
> 
> 
> I think it probably has its origins with the Norman invasion; this is the flag of Normandy:



Ah, yes.. that is probably it. After that, the King of England was also the ruler of parts of France through different titles like the Duke of Normandy


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## MattN (Oct 25, 2008)

The factory with the ornate towers was called the Tower Works, it used to make steel pins for the woollen industry. The tower you ask about was for dust extraction and modelled on Giotto's campanile in Florence, Italy. Whether those 'windows' serve any function or were just part of the architectural effect I'm not sure. The other ornate tower was (I believe) a chimney modelled on the Torre dei Lamberti in Verona. The plainer one was a later addition, allegedly modelled on a Tuscan tower house. 

I don't think I've properly been to Saltaire since I was about 5, I ought to put that right soon. I suspect your initial hike through the walled fields before you hit the paths wasn't technically permitted since 'access land' with a right to roam is usually only on open moorland or old commons in England and Wales, but the top of Baildon Moor (looks like that's where you were) probably is. 

As for the sign about dogs and cattle, there have been a couple of cases recently where a person's dog worried the cattle and the person ended up getting killed because they stayed with the dog, but the dog survived.


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## Crash_N (May 19, 2011)

Probably the best thread in urban showcase :cheers: 
England surely is an amazing country, and thanks to you, we foreigners were able to learn a few things more about it, as well as enjoy your great photos. Keep up the good work kay:


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Commenting on a few points raised:

Who watches all the CCTV? - In most cases nobody, shopping malls etc might have a video room where security guards monitor events but its mostly reactive. If a crime happens and is reported then the footage will be reviewed for evidence, if not nobody will ever see and it will be wiped in a few days.

Why isn't there better public access in the city halls? - Good question, many are great buildings and they should be promoted more, maybe council officials don't appreciate how good they are and treat them as functional offices :dunno: It is certainly something that could be improved I think.

The relationship between chimneys and fireplaces - Hmmm, don't know, but i don't think there is a direct relationship, I have 2 chimneypots on the chimney of my house (and maybe there were a couple more on the demolished rear chimney) but we have 6 fireplaces. :dunno:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Jonesy55 said:


> The relationship between chimneys and fireplaces - Hmmm, don't know, but i don't think there is a direct relationship, I have 2 chimneypots on the chimney of my house (and maybe there were a couple more on the demolished rear chimney) but we have 6 fireplaces. :dunno:


Thanks for that information. Do all six fire places work? Good that you told me this so I don't go around telling people that is what those pipes correspond to.

I do love the chimneys with the pipes though - that is very iconic. :cheers:


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

600West218 said:


> Thanks for that information. Do all six fire places work? Good that you told me this so I don't go around telling people that is what those pipes correspond to.
> 
> I do love the chimneys with the pipes though - that is very iconic. :cheers:


No, none of them work! :lol: 

We have gas central heating and the fireplaces are just ornamental now, they are mostly quite nice wrought iron Victorian ones though one is a more recent replacement.

We even have one in the bathroom which I assume was originally a small bedroom with the toilet being outside when the house was built.

In our previous home, a smaller terraced house, the fireplace in the living room was still operational and it was great to sit in front of a real fire on a winter evening, there is something special about an open fire that modern heating systems just can't replace imo


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## cardiff (Jul 26, 2005)

Londonladinleeds said:


> The only place that has as many as Leeds is London....which has loads, especially around Picadilly, Bond Street, Regent Street and Covent Garden.


Actually Cardiff has just as many, though they have a completely different character to Leeds. Arcades are not rare at all across the UK, all large cities have them in some form, it just from my experiance Leeds and Cardiffs are used as part of the main shopping hub (Leeds using them for high end chain stores and Cardiff for mixed ranged independant stores), whereas other cities tend to have them slightly out on a limb with lower range stores, though there are some exceptions, at least thats my impresion of the majority.

My experiance of getting into city halls has been quite easy, Cardiffs lets tourists in and even gives out guides, Leeds had a function on when i wanted to visit but they normally let you look around, i had a good wander around Manchesters and have been into plenty of other ones. Maybe it was just bad timing ie functions/event or renovations.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

This Manchester history site is absolutely great. I will use it on my next trip there.

http://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/tours/tourtwelve.html

Does anyone know of similar sites for Liverpool, Leeds, and Birmingham?


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## 10123 (Feb 23, 2009)

Interestingly VQ at first catered towards independent stores, but as we've seen now they now pretty much cater to super high end products with the likes of vivienne Westwood, Louis vuitton etc. With many stores making their European debut in VQ.

VQ back in the 1950's...











_During the Victorian period, shopping habits and environments changed greatly. With widespread affluence and greater leisure time, many-floored department stores and sparkling shopping arcades were built across the land. Perhaps the finest group of surviving arcades can be found in Leeds, and of these, the most distinguished is the County Arcade (1898-1900). 

Who would have thought that this glittering display was once the site of the city’s meat markets? The area was redeveloped at the end of the nineteenth century, and the designer Frank Matcham was brought in to build three linked arcades. Matcham is best known for his theatre interiors. Certainly, the combination of mahogany, marble, mosaic and faience make this look more exuberant than most: this is a stage set to tempt shoppers in to buy the finest wares. 

This photograph (c.1950) captures the arcade just after the war, a time when Victorian architecture was little appreciated. Windows have been lowered; shop signs stick out at different heights; columns have been concealed. Rhythm and uniformity have been lost. How times change; the restored arcade now regarded as one of the most attractive buildings in Leeds.
_

Anyway all our other arcades cater to independents but even these contain the odd chain store, Starbucks usually....


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

http://www.liverpoolhistorysociety.org.uk/index.htm

Here is a link to the Liverpool History Society.

There is a great link to other websites on here too.


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

Loving your trip, you really make it seem like an adventure, which is great. Saltaire is precious. :cheers2:

P.S. Why were all the flags at half mast?


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

PortoNuts said:


> Another great day! Sheffield looks so neat. I'm very fond of big machinery.
> 
> Good work!


Yeah, the first day I was there my impression was quite negative. High street was not anything special. I thought to myself "this is so ugly it could almost be an American city".

But then when I had more time I saw some of the nicer places. I wish I had another day there to check out more of the city.

Also, I didn't see any really big shopping areas in the center like Liverpool, Manchester, and Leeds all had. On the other hand it is super close to the Peaks District which as someone who likes to hike would be nice.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

:lol: I can't help thinking you're being a little harsh on the US and its cities, I've only visited once but i found some great cities and had a great time!


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

Steel City Suburb said:


> Its the Walkabout on Carver St, unsure about any murders...
> 
> Its pretty popular, on Sheffields main 'strip' (West St)


I'm beginning to think that it might have been in Bristol


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Jonesy55 said:


> :lol: I can't help thinking you're being a little harsh on the US and its cities, I've only visited once but i found some great cities and had a great time!


My guess you went to very large cities or very touristy cities - ie, NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, Las Vegas, Miami, New Orleans, etc. Yes, those cities will have some life to them.

But remember, these English cities aren't tourist cities, they are just regular cities. Nor are Liverpool, Leeds or Sheffield big. In terms of metro population they are rather small. Yet they have a vitality to them that only much larger or specifically tourist oriented cities in the US would have.

For instance, Liverpool with 1 million people has more street life and vitality than places in the US like Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Detroit, Philly, etc. even though those metro areas have 5 times as many people. Don't even think of comparing Liverpool with an American city of its own size like Buffalo, Memphis, Richmond, Columbus, San Antonio and on and on. A normal American metro area of the same size as Liverpool or Leeds has no where's near the same level of vitality. hno:

If nothing else made an impression on me during this trip it was that. I was really, really impressed with how nice and big cityish these places felt while at the same time being small enough to still be livable. :cheers:


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## Karnoit (Feb 16, 2009)

joshsam said:


> Did you mean Wallonia? I've been in some area's yes but things like you showed us you will never see in Belgium. Some Flemisch cities have indsutrial buildings that have been saved, mainly along innercity channels, looking a lot like some of your pics. In Wallonia, the old industry stayed operating for a long time. Afther that the buildings now just lay empty en are crumbling and in very bad shape. The old mines in Wallonia are almost all demolished and the steel mills stayed operating for a long time so they where modernised untill the 50ties or so and are no longer authenthic. Now they are just ruins of steel.



There is still more things to see than that in Wallonia. For instance the Old Boat Lifts on the Canal du Centre are the only one in the world still working with their original pieces and are even Unesco World heritage site (http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=canal%20du%20centre). Then you also have several exemple of mining or industrial complex built next to a planned-town for the workers like Grand Hornu (http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=grand+hornu&m=text) or Bois-du-Luc (http://www.ecomuseeboisduluc.be/). And finally you have numerous sites who have been turn into industry museum (like Bois du Cazier among many others) or attraction. But yes, Wallonia is short of money and industrial patrimony is certainly not the first place to spend it. They are indeed places who looks a bit neglected (like this nice plant in Cheratte: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cmdrcord/4483610945/) but saying that everything is ruined or demolished is unfair. It's just that we have way to much industrial areas and we can't take care of everything nowadays.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

600West218 said:


> My guess you went to very large cities or very touristy cities - ie, NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, Las Vegas, Miami, New Orleans, etc. Yes, those cities will have some life to them.
> 
> But remember, these English cities aren't tourist cities, they are just regular cities. Nor are Liverpool, Leeds or Sheffield big. In terms of metro population they are rather small. Yet they have a vitality to them that only much larger or specifically tourist oriented cities in the US would have.
> 
> ...


It's true that many US city centres seem to die once the offices close despite looking big and busy with lots of tall buildings (even small cities seem to have skyscraper type buildings downtown over there!). But i still enjoyed many of them, NYC, Annapolis, DC, New Orleans, Galveston, Austin, SF etc and the scenery in between them is usually stunning :cheers:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

wow, just wow. Spent most my night discovering this thread. its compelling...
More!


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## yoshef (Jun 22, 2007)

600West218 said:


> My guess you went to very large cities or very touristy cities - ie, NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, Las Vegas, Miami, New Orleans, etc. Yes, those cities will have some life to them.
> 
> But remember, these English cities aren't tourist cities, they are just regular cities. Nor are Liverpool, Leeds or Sheffield big. In terms of metro population they are rather small. Yet they have a vitality to them that only much larger or specifically tourist oriented cities in the US would have.
> 
> ...



IMO (population wise!) it looks that way partly because provincial British cities are divided up into parochial, self serving fiefdoms, each eager to protect their own identity and serve their own interests. There are lots of little towns, some dating back to the doomsday book, or for various other regions, like insurance premiums, who want to feel like seperate entities. In reality though, Liverpool, for example, functionally serves an area of around 2 million, and together with Manchester, which is only "up the road", sits in probably the second most heavily populated area in the UK. Together, the two cities service a population, by various means, maybe around 5 million, when you factor in parts of Cheshire, Wales, etc....


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

600West218 said:


> My guess you went to very large cities or very touristy cities - ie, NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, Las Vegas, Miami, New Orleans, etc. Yes, those cities will have some life to them.
> 
> But remember, these English cities aren't tourist cities, they are just regular cities. Nor are Liverpool, Leeds or Sheffield big. In terms of metro population they are rather small. Yet they have a vitality to them that only much larger or specifically tourist oriented cities in the US would have.
> 
> ...


 I think you have to take into account that US cities are spread out much more than English and indeed European cities and hence the reliance on the car, the commute to the burbs and the city centre falling asleep at night. In England cities are more dense and compact, making for busier street life, where people can walk or catch convenient public transport to places. There are of course exceptions in both countries, and one must also consider other social (eg, 'white-flight' xenophobia, urban poor in the inner-city) environmental (eg vehicle infrastructure, suburban development) and economic (better incomes for larger homes on large allotments) reasons to why this occured. Many American cities embraced 'road culture' to the detriment of the city centre and its vitality. A movement espoused by Robert Moses of NYC with his signature motorwys or 'parkways' as he called them, creating extensive infrastructure to cater for vehicles, and in the process killing the social-life, the buzz of the walking, human-scale, mixed-use city. Jane Jacobs writes about this in her very telling book, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_American_Cities"]The Death and Life of Great American Cities[/URL]. I highly recommend you read it, if you want to understand what's happened to American cities, but also read about the [URL="http://urbanplanning21stcentury.blog.com/2011/01/27/stefanos-polyzoides-founder-of-new-urbanism/"]New Urbanism[/URL] movement, which is giving new hope to the resuscitation of US cities. 

Finally, if you like the vitality of English cities, you're in for a real treat if you hit the continent of Europe, where English cities seem somewhat sleepy in comparison to them. I'd highly recommend Paris, and most French, Italian or Spanish cities, and especially Istanbul. These are my top fifteen favourite lively cities in Europe: Istanbul, Paris, Nice, Rome, Milan, Bologna, Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, Salamanca, Edinburgh, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Berlin and Vienna. 

I could name another fifty lively cities, but consider them and I assure you, you're in for a treat.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

yoshef said:


> IMO (population wise!) it looks that way partly because provincial British cities are divided up into parochial, self serving fiefdoms, each eager to protect their own identity and serve their own interests. There are lots of little towns, some dating back to the doomsday book, or for various other regions, like insurance premiums, who want to feel like seperate entities. In reality though, Liverpool, for example, functionally serves an area of around 2 million, and together with Manchester, which is only "up the road", sits in probably the second most heavily populated area in the UK. Together, the two cities service a population, by various means, maybe around 5 million, when you factor in parts of Cheshire, Wales, etc....


Yes, you have a point there. If you go back to my Leeds pictures I have one in a hospital of a poster appealing to keep a heart surgery unit open. I think they were saying it served an area of 14 million people.

And you could almost consider Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, and maybe some other places as one big urban conglomeration. You could certainly live in Leeds or Liverpool and work in Manchester. In fact, I know of people that live so far outside of NYC it takes them more time to get to work here in NYC than it would take to go from Liverpool to Leeds.

Nevertheless, even when it came to nightlife and shopping, where generally people stay closer to home, it was amazing all the street life.

Whatever the cause, it is great and the English should make sure they keep it that way. :cheers:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

skymantle said:


> I think you have to take into account that US cities are spread out much more than English and indeed European cities and hence the reliance on the car, the commute to the burbs and the city centre falling asleep at night. In England cities are more dense and compact, making for busier street life, where people can walk or catch convenient public transport to places. There are of course exceptions in both countries, and one must also consider other social (eg, 'white-flight' xenophobia, urban poor in the inner-city) environmental (eg vehicle infrastructure, suburban development) and economic (better incomes for larger homes on large allotments) reasons to why this occured. Many American cities embraced 'road culture' to the detriment of the city centre and its vitality. A movement espoused by Robert Moses of NYC with his signature motorwys or 'parkways' as he called them, creating extensive infrastructure to cater for vehicles, and in the process killing the social-life, the buzz of the walking, human-scale, mixed-use city. Jane Jacobs writes about this in her very telling book, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_American_Cities"]The Death and Life of Great American Cities[/URL]. I highly recommend you read it, if you want to understand what's happened to American cities, but also read about the [URL="http://urbanplanning21stcentury.blog.com/2011/01/27/stefanos-polyzoides-founder-of-new-urbanism/"]New Urbanism[/URL] movement, which is giving new hope to the resuscitation of US cities.


Yes, all of that is absolutely true. Sadly, it would be next to impossible to reverse that. Plus, at least in the US we go through cycles were people like cities and then they hate cities. We've been in a very pro city cycle for about 20 years. I bet that is about to change again, especially given the economic problems, and there will probably be flight out of the cities. Just my guess anyways.




skymantle said:


> Finally, if you like the vitality of English cities, you're in for a real treat if you hit the continent of Europe, where English cities seem somewhat sleepy in comparison to them. I'd highly recommend Paris, and most French, Italian or Spanish cities, and especially Istanbul. These are my top fifteen favourite lively cities in Europe: Istanbul, Paris, Nice, Rome, Milan, Bologna, Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, Salamanca, Edinburgh, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Berlin and Vienna.
> 
> I could name another fifty lively cities, but consider them and I assure you, you're in for a treat.



I've been to Italy and it was very nice but I don't speak Italian, they don't speak English generally, and hence while the cities were lively I couldn't partake in any of the liveliness. In England I could have a brief conversation with the person selling me coffee and donuts in the morning, and that really does make a huge difference, at least to me. Imagine, in England when I went to museums not only could I read everything but I could ask questions of the people who were running machines and had great conversations with them. In Italy and France that will be hard to do, and maybe even in Germany too.

I do speak Spanish so I am looking forward to Spain. It is definitely high on my "to visit" list.


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

600West218 said:


> Yes, all of that is absolutely true. Sadly, it would be next to impossible to reverse that.


 Never say never. Yes you can, where there's a will there's a way. Plus, necessity will dictate the move to more environmentally sustainable, and hence lively cities in the future, that's my opinion. 



600West218 said:


> Plus, at least in the US we go through cycles were people like cities and then they hate cities. We've been in a very pro city cycle for about 20 years. I bet that is about to change again, especially given the economic problems, and there will probably be flight out of the cities. Just my guess anyways.


 Interesting. I suppose people will go where the jobs are. 




600West218 said:


> I've been to Italy and it was very nice but I don't speak Italian, they don't speak English generally, and hence while the cities were lively I couldn't partake in any of the liveliness.


 Language can indeed be a barrier, but I don't speak Italian either and I didn't have a problem connecting with people. Some spoke English and I also had the opportunity to meet other travellers and we'd get by somehow. Also, for me at least, Italian is like the easiest language to pick up. You just add a vowel to the end of an English word and chances are you're right. Italian essentially is the roots of the English language after all. 



600West218 said:


> In England I could have a brief conversation with the person selling me coffee and donuts in the morning, and that really does make a huge difference, at least to me.


 Different people have different experiences. I stayed near Gloucester Rd Sth Kensington, London last year and all the coffee shops had Polish and other eastern European attendants and I couldn't get a converstaion out of them. 



600West218 said:


> Imagine, in England when I went to museums not only could I read everything but I could ask questions of the people who were running machines and had great conversations with them. In Italy and France that will be hard to do, and maybe even in Germany too.


 Perhaps, but the challenge is half the fun if you ask me, and to be honest there was no shortage of English speakers when I was in Germany and France last year, especially compared to Italy and Spain. Many museums throughout Europe also have descriptions in English, as they've come to accept that it's the _lingua franca_ of the world these days. 



600West218 said:


> I do speak Spanish so I am looking forward to Spain. It is definitely high on my "to visit" list.


 Well if you Speak Spanish then I'm a bit surprised you couldn't get by somehow in Italy, considering how similar the languages are. My little Italian got me through Spain. Anyway, Spain is sensational, arguably the most interesting country in Europe, with a plethora of attractions, especially art and architecture, including re-adaptive use industrial sites, such as you'll find in in Bilbao and elsewhere, including converted railway stations, shipyards and warehouses. Spain has Europe's most lively cities, I think most Europeans would agree, staying that way well into the late night, with one to suit every taste; from grand to cosy, grungy to elegant, exotic to belle epoque, atmospheric to ultra-modern etc.


Back to your great pictures and comments. :cheers:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

On the following day, Thursday, it was time to head to York. This would be my main concession to doing touristy stuff, though I had heard they also have a good steam locomotive musuem there. Before leaving Sheffield my hosts convinced me that travelling to Durham would be more practical and interesting than going to Whitby, which is what I had originally planned.

I went back to the center, caught a train, and off I was.

The first pictures are blurry and have the sun generated reflection that would not go away but as we discussed this interesting two level highway I’ll post them anyways.


100_3737 by 600West218, on Flickr

Notice that not only is it two levels but both levels are elevated off the ground.


100_3738 by 600West218, on Flickr


Further north, maybe a half hour out of Sheffield (I don’t remember exactly) the train went by a large number of massive power plant cooling towers and smoke stacks.

I was seated on the right hand side but I could see these on the left hand side:


100_3745 by 600West218, on Flickr

And then on the right hand side, at the same time, this is what we were going by:


100_3750 by 600West218, on Flickr

So in other words, we were passing a whole line of massive power plants all in very close proximity to each other. Although in the US those types of cooling towers you only see with nuclear power plants I am told all these were regular thermal plants.

In total I am counting 14 cooling tower that we were passing. An impressive and amazing sight.

In short order the train arrived in York which had a nice, if not very large train station:


100_3755 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3756 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3757 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3758 by 600West218, on Flickr

ok, it looks like the English flag on top. Not sure what the other coat of arms are.


100_3759 by 600West218, on Flickr

Turns out it is an old station.


100_3761 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3763 by 600West218, on Flickr

I dropped of my bag in the bag storage area and set off to see York.


100_3764 by 600West218, on Flickr

It is a walled city and this was my first glimpse of the wall:


100_3765 by 600West218, on Flickr

I actually didn’t have a hotel lined up and needed a place to stay but this looked like it would be out of my price range:


100_3766 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3768 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3769 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3770 by 600West218, on Flickr


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100_3772 by 600West218, on Flickr

How does anyone sign a lease for 500 years??


100_3773 by 600West218, on Flickr

An old building that is probably very new by York standards:


100_3774 by 600West218, on Flickr

The Minster dead ahead:


100_3775 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Saw lots of school children in uniforms. Don’t know if that means they go to a private school, or if public schools wear uniforms as well.


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Sort of interesting that you would see soldiers and about 20 machine guns outside a church. Clearly there was some special event taking place. In fact, the Minster was off limits to the public until 3 pm.

The more you look at this the more amazing details there are:


100_3790 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Given that I couldn’t go inside the Minster until much later I decided to wander the old streets of York.


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A tudor building so old its sagging:


100_3811 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3813 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3817 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3819 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Truthfully, I wasn’t impressed with the center of York. It was way to touristy and commercial for me. It was sort of like 5th New York meets tudor England and that makes for an ugly hybrid. To me it completely lacked authenticity and as you know by now if you follow this thread authenticity is what I like - not put ons to entertain tourists.

Anyways, I made it back to the front of the Minster which was still not open to the public. Turns out they were having ceremonies to honor the French Airmen of WW2. They had a small parade of British veterans and some active military units.


100_3833 by 600West218, on Flickr


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I am guessing there are members of the Royal Airforce.


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Maybe these were some French who were invited? Don’t really know.


100_3851 by 600West218, on Flickr

These were some cadets of high school age.

Then there were some military flyovers.


100_3852 by 600West218, on Flickr

There were actually modern (and very loud) jet fighters that flew over before these but I didn’t get a picture of them.


100_3853 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3854 by 600West218, on Flickr

Pretty sure that is a WW2 British Lancaster bomber. Now I can say I’ve seen one.


100_3856 by 600West218, on Flickr

Then I decided to walk back to the train station as that was near the train museum which I thought I’d see while waiting for the Minster to open. On the way I went by some interesting ruins.


100_3857 by 600West218, on Flickr


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You can walk on the wall and I did that for a bit.


100_3893 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3894 by 600West218, on Flickr

Funny looking busses by the train station:


100_3900 by 600West218, on Flickr

100_3902 by 600West218, on Flickr

I then walked over to the Steam Railroad museum. It was a brilliant museum. In fact, it was probably the biggest and most comprehensive museum of the trip. For a true rail enthusaist it would be worth crossing the Atlantic just for this.

Unfortunately, two things prevented me from really taking in this museum. One was that I was simply museumed out after nearly two weeks of visiting museum after museums. The second was that I was pressed for time as I knew I had to get back to the minster to see it when it was opened to the public plus I still had to find a place to spend the night. Still, I spent about 2 hours in the museum and this is some of what I saw there:


100_3908 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Look how tall the smoke stack is!!


100_3921 by 600West218, on Flickr


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They had an excellent cut away steam locomotive so you could see all its inner workings. They have one of these at “SteamTown” in Scranton (BTW, this museum in York is MUCH bigger than Steam Town) but it was nice to see it here also.


100_3930 by 600West218, on Flickr


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This is the work area where they refurbish trains:


100_3950 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3951 by 600West218, on Flickr

I then left the museum in a rush to get to the Minster. However, I saw some more beautiful emergency vehicles so I had to stop and get some pics. 


100_3953 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_3954 by 600West218, on Flickr

It is interesting that they don’t seem to use one brand in particular for police cars. I’ve seen BMWs, Ford, Cheverolet, and some other makes used as police cars in England.


100_3955 by 600West218, on Flickr

Note the metal screen that can slide down over the windshield. I guess that is for protection during riots.

I made it to the Minster and went in. Of course, the lighting was very poor so I couldn’t get many pictures but I got a few.


100_3957 by 600West218, on Flickr


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I then headed back out and did a bit more sight seeing.


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A French flag flying over the Minster. People in York said they had never seen that before.


100_4003 by 600West218, on Flickr

I finally booked a room at the tourist information site and started heading over to it.


100_4005 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4007 by 600West218, on Flickr

Once again it had been a very long day and it was good to get in my own room and get some sleep.


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

Most primary school children ( 7 - 11 years old) wear uniforms in Britain - both public and private; and all secondary school pupils too ( 11- 16 years old).


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

I wouldn't say York is inauthentic, its just of a different era to the other cities you visited with a different historical makeup and different purpose. More great photos again!


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

York is very authentic and with an invaluable collection of old buildings but yes, I agree that it probably tries too hard to please visitors and gets too touristy.

But the Minster looks better the more you look at it and the museum seems worth it. :cheers2:


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## albionfagan (Jun 14, 2008)

The North of England never looked so good, so much better than the South.

Most importantly, the people are better. South = Tory voter.


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## Crash_N (May 19, 2011)

albionfagan said:


> The North of England never looked so good, so much better than the South.
> 
> Most importantly, the people are better. South = Tory voter.


Unnecessary comment is unnecessary hno:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Yes, I guess the proper word isn't inauthentic. Obviously the buildings are nice and very much real.

But the commercialism and obvious catering to tourists are just not my cup of tea. 

Also, a big factor was that I was simply quite tired and worn down by the time I got there. 

Finally, I really love Victorian era buildings and industrial museums and that is not what York is about.

So I really don't mean to dissuade anyone from going to York, it is a great pace and depending on your interests can be fantastic.


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

York is an incredible beauty!


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

On Saturday, my final full day in England, I wanted to get to Manchester early. I needed to be in Manchester as that was where I was flying out of. But just as importantly, I really wanted to get back there to see the Power Hall at the Museum of Science and Industry, which had been closed when I previously visited. So even though I had a headache (a hangover from drinking way too much on Greek Street the night before) I managed to catch an early train across the Pennines to Manchester.

And you know you are in Manchester when you see this:


100_4125 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4126 by 600West218, on Flickr

The nice thing about coming back to Manchester was that I already had a good sense of the layout of the center of the city. So to get to MOSI I decided to pick up the canal in the Gay Village and follow it straight to Castelfield and MOSI.


100_4127 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4128 by 600West218, on Flickr

As I got down close to MOSI I ran accross this canal boat (barge, as they are called in England) going through a lock. It was a family of parents and their two college age sons. As the week coming up was the mid term holiday at the universities they were taking a trip around the canals. Sounds like a great idea to me. Anyways, I stood and watched the kids open and close the lock gates and sluice gates:


100_4133 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4134 by 600West218, on Flickr

You can see the boat is very low in the water here as they are going from a lower water section of the canal to a higher water section. They they entered the lock and closed the gate behind them. In the next picture one of the sons is cranking open the sluice gate to allow water into the lock from the high level portion of the canal. Once the water levels between the lock and the higher water level of the canal have been equalized they can easily open the lock gates and move on.


100_4135 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4136 by 600West218, on Flickr

In the following picture you can see what is happening:


100_4137 by 600West218, on Flickr

In the foreground, between me and the lock door, you can see the water level of the higher part of the canal. Note that the water level in the lock is lower (though by this time it had been raised somewhat). Also note the turbulent water in the lock next to the boat. That is water pouring through pipes that have been opened and are allowing water from the high part of the canal to pour into the lock until the water levels are equalized.


100_4138 by 600West218, on Flickr

Now, you can see the boats level has risen, though it is still not as high as the water where I am standing. BTW, you can see the mechanism for the sluice gates. It is a rack and pinion system and the metal bar sticking up is the rack. By turning the crank (and the pinion) the kid had raised the rack and that raised a metal gate that had prevented water from entering pipes into the locks. With the pipes now unblocked the water poured into the lock and the boat was raised.


100_4140 by 600West218, on Flickr

Almost there!


100_4141 by 600West218, on Flickr

With the water levels equalized you can now see the kids opening both gates. Notice the one closer to me is using the inlayed bricks for better traction. With the water levels equalized opening the gates is pretty easy. I tried it a couple of times and it didn’t require much streangh.


100_4142 by 600West218, on Flickr

The boat coming out and a conciencious traveler closing the sluice gate.


100_4143 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4144 by 600West218, on Flickr
Then I continued along the canal where it seemed like there was always more to see, even if I didn’t take pictures of everything.


100_4145 by 600West218, on Flickr


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100_4147 by 600West218, on Flickr

I wonder where that jet is coming from and where it is going to?


100_4149 by 600West218, on Flickr


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Another little pool going into a factory off the canal.


100_4154 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4155 by 600West218, on Flickr

Again, I think this is an old canal keepers home:


100_4156 by 600West218, on Flickr


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These bridges and viaducts in Castlefield will probably be the image that I most closely associate with this trip. When I arrived in England and took the train from Manchester airport to Liverpool I saw them and was immediately impressed by them.


100_4161 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4162 by 600West218, on Flickr

The people we have to thank for Castefield and its canals being preserved. It boggles the mind to think that all this could have been lost.


100_4164 by 600West218, on Flickr

Note the Inland Waterways Association at the bottom of the plaque. Would have been nice to know about them and their website before I went to England.

http://www.waterways.org.uk/

Finally made it to MOSI, and just in time to see the old steam locomotive they operate run.


100_4165 by 600West218, on Flickr


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I actually filmed this train when it started moving and when I upload that video to YouTube or Vimeo I’ll share it here. It shoots out a large quantity of steam when it first starts up (don’t know why) and both the train and I disappeared in a cloud of steam.

Apparently there are so many old steam engines running in England there are companies dedicated to servicing them:


100_4169 by 600West218, on Flickr

Then I headed into the power hall.


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An old beam engine. Don’t know if it ever runs.


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On the day I was there nothing was running. But they were fundraising for a new boiler so obviously they must normally run things.


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At one time Manchester and some other British cities had a huge hydraulic power system. It used fluid pressure in pipes to transmit power.


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Would have been nice to see this in action and see how well the regulator works.

On balance, the Power Hall at MOSI was very good. But they definitely needed some people around to answer questions and give more in depth explanations of things.


100_4223 by 600West218, on Flickr


100_4224 by 600West218, on Flickr

Then I wandered a bit. Actually, I knew I wanted to head over to the Manchester Cathederal as I knew they were scheduled to have an EvenSong on Saturday. Sure enough, I was able to see it and it was quite nice. No pictures though.

But I do have pictures of my wanderings before and after it:


100_4225 by 600West218, on Flickr


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This is inside the Great Northern Warehouse.


100_4230 by 600West218, on Flickr

They actually had a movie theatre built into it.


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Note the city center streets are full of shoppers on a Saturday. How many American cities would you see that in?


100_4250 by 600West218, on Flickr


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100_4253 by 600West218, on Flickr

Later I spent a Saturday evening hanging out at the Print Works which was very similar to Greek Street in Leeds. But this time I went to bed early as I had to catch a plane the next morning.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

the_sage said:


> Over here in Ontario come March / April you get desperate to see some green! everything turns brown over the wintertime.


Our winters don't get that could 

Great last pics 600west!


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## Linguine (Aug 10, 2009)

Very nice....thanks for sharing your pics.:cheers2:


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## Regener8tor (May 22, 2011)

Fantastic thread *600West218*!  

Just gotta to ask the big question... 

What was your overall favorite favorite city of the trip ?...


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## PadArch (Apr 1, 2010)

skymantle said:


> Language can indeed be a barrier, but I don't speak Italian either and I didn't have a problem connecting with people. Some spoke English and I also had the opportunity to meet other travellers and we'd get by somehow. Also, for me at least, Italian is like the easiest language to pick up. You just add a vowel to the end of an English word and chances are you're right. Italian essentially is the roots of the English language after all.


Actually Italian has little or nothing to do with the roots of the English language. English belongs to the West-Germanic family of languages that also includes Dutch etc. The closest languages to English in the contemporary world are Frisian, Dutch, Afrikaans and the Scandinavian languages eg Norwegian. It is a wide misconception that English is a latin language. It isn't, however there are a huge number of Latin-originated words that have been imported into English, mostly via French, which was spoken by the rulers of England for around 300 years. Before the Norman invasion which introduced French vocabulary, English was more or less entirely Germanic, and despite the English language being suppressed for around 300 years, it eventually won out and soon the Kings who had previously only spoken French became native English speakers. Anyway, while we do have a lot of Latin-based vocab, the grammatical structure of English is nothing to do with Latin, and all of the 300 most commonly used words in English today (eg: the, and, of, with, etc) are also nothing to do with Latin, they are germanic words from old English origins.

Cheers


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## VoldemortBlack (Oct 31, 2009)

*... and on the sixth day, God created Manchester.*

removed.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Regener8tor said:


> Fantastic thread *600West218*!
> 
> Just gotta to ask the big question...
> 
> What was your overall favorite favorite city of the trip ?...


That isn't an easy question. Frankly, I would be very happy to live in any of the places I visited. And that really is an honest answer.

Another great thing about England is you can live in one place but visit others all the time.

Given that, I would probably choose Liverpool. I like that it is on the sea and I also like being around ships. In fact, being on the sea is what gives it an edge over Manchester in my mind. I also think Liverpool was a very nice size - big enough that it had plenty to do but not too big. It was very walkable (I like that). It had what was effectively a subway - Merseyrail. One drag with both Manchester and Leeds was you have to take buses (don't like as I can't read on them) or trams (a bit better but still slow). 

The main negative to Liverpool is it doesn't have the canals that other cities have, especially Manchester. But that is not fatal as from Liverpool it is a very easy trip to Manchester. Heck, you can live in Liverpool and work in Manchester, easily.

So Liverpool number 1, with Manchester a close number 2, followed by Leeds as a close number 3 and Sheffield a more distant number 4.

Having said all this I know Liverpool and Manchester have a significant rivalry. I think they need to get over it. They are both quite nice and one of the selling points of Liverpool should be that it is close to Manchester and one of the selling points for Manchester would be that it is close to Liverpool. Further, I think anyone who lives in either of those cities and doesn't regularly visit the other is really missing out.


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## kids (Dec 12, 2004)

Lancashire 1, Yorkshire 0


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

England is such a small island - and the english mentality has been, traditionally, very competitive and warrior-like; seeing itself as unique and independent of all others - the U.K is an island - separate from Europe.

This factor has also contributed to the intense rivalry you have witnessed & experienced, between its major cities. However, unlike in The U.S.A, or in Germany, for example - where power & cultural force is spread more evenly around the cities of the nation; England is utterly dominated by London - leaving all other cities to fight over left-overs.

I suppose this combined with the natural defensiveness that is created by limited space & limited resources is partly responsible for the antagonism.

I agree with you - it is very tiresome; with people trying to score points off each other - in relation to their town or city of origin.

The U.S, to me, is appealing because it is so varied and diverse -with many 'capital cities' - all with their own power & cultural base.

Anyway - thanks for the many hours of anticipation and excitement that your thread has provoked. :cheers:


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## Darloeye (Jun 15, 2010)

Yes thanks for the thread loved reading it. Shame you never had the time to enjoy Durham tho its a great city by the way and it is a city, very small city but still a city. Darlington is a town that is bigger than Durham but we don't go on size.


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## yoshef (Jun 22, 2007)

600West218 said:


> The main negative to Liverpool is it doesn't have the canals that other cities have, especially Manchester.



You'll not find many locals complaining about a lack of canals in Liverpool. As a matter of fact, there were plenty of grumbles when the authorities first proposed a canal link across the Liverpool's Pier Head, a kind of maritime snobbery manifested. Whilst there is actually a historical context for barges to be moving around Liverpool's dock system, the canal system itself is fairly ubiquitous throughout the industrial hinterland, and as such regarded as somewhat unglamorous here, something that belongs inland! A lot of locals would rather see more historical, or at the very least ocean-going vessels moored in Liverpool's city centre docks, than canal boats. All depends on your point of view, I guess.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

yoshef said:


> A lot of locals would rather see more historical, or at the very least ocean-going vessels moored in Liverpool's city centre docks, than canal boats. All depends on your point of view, I guess.


Yes, it would be nice to see plenty of large ocean going vessels docked there. I wonder how difficult that is with the tides.

One thing that intrigues me and I want to learn more about is how much of Liverpool is artificial - that is landfill that was built out into the Mersey precisely to make it more feasable to load and unload boats. I might be imagining this but I think I saw somewhere something that showed the original shoreline being around where the town hall is. And if that is true a couple hundred yards of Liverpool is man made.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Sunday I awoke early to head to the Manchester airport. I had to be there at the ungodly hour of 6 am for a flight leaving shortly after 8. Travelling through the pre-dawn darkness didn’t allow for taking pictures.

After I checked in I hoped to pick up some last minute souveniers as in all my rushing I hadn’t bought many before. So I went into a couple of stores and this is what I found:


IMG_6368 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6367 by 600West218, on Flickr

Let me get this straight - I am in Manchester, at the Manchester airport, and I want something like an I Love MCR t-shirt and all they have is stuff from London?!?!?!?!? I have heard that England is London centric but this is absurd. 

But at the airport I did notice that Manchester apparently has some planes named after it:


IMG_6372 by 600West218, on Flickr


Anyways, disappointed at not getting the souvenirs I wanted I got on the plane and off we went. Luckily the sky was fairly clear almost all the way to Liverpool so I got a nice areal view of an area I had begun to love.



IMG_6383 by 600West218, on Flickr

Even with really poor quality photos you can see how beautiful the English countryside is.


IMG_6384 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6388 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6396 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6410 by 600West218, on Flickr

Note now we see water - a long straight narrow channel and a wide winding body of water:


IMG_6410 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6411 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6412 by 600West218, on Flickr

ok, I am reasonably confident I know what I am looking at in the above picture. The narrow long body of water must be the Manchester Ship Canal. The wide winding body of water is the Mersey Estuary. Note you can see a bridge on it. It is simply amazing how close the canal and river are - they practically touch!! Make me wonder why they had a canal right here at all and why didn’t they simply use the river until it became unnavigable?

Also, note the cooling towers from some power plant.


IMG_6413 by 600West218, on Flickr

If you look really closely you can see the canal keeps going as far as the eye can see and is almost touching the river the whole time. Very, very strange. Is the Mersey so shallow here that it is unnavigable?


IMG_6414 by 600West218, on Flickr

Also, that complex of buildings to the left of the canal is very big, whatever it is.


IMG_6415 by 600West218, on Flickr



IMG_6416 by 600West218, on Flickr

Now we are seeing some built up areas which I assume are the outskirts of Liverpool.


IMG_6417 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6419 by 600West218, on Flickr


IMG_6420 by 600West218, on Flickr

I really had hopes of having an excellent birds eye view of Liverpool but unfortunately within a few seconds of taking these pictures it became entirely clouded over.


IMG_6422 by 600West218, on Flickr

After a quick a stop at Shannon to hang out with thousands of US soldiers - they were heading to Afghanistan and didn’t look to happy about it - it was on to a bigger jet for the hop over the pond:


IMG_6475 by 600West218, on Flickr

I will probably do a couple more posts of general observations but to wrap up for now let me just say this: England vastly exceeded my expectations in almost every respect. In fact, if there was some negative aspect to either the trip or the country I can’t think of what it was. I am really looking forward to going back soon.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

ah, now that I am looking at the pictures more closely I can see sandbars in the Mersey. Guess that explains why they need a separate canal at that point.

Another question comes from looking at the pictures though. Note all the green fields seem rather small, with highly irregular shapes, and boxed in either with trees or hedges.

Are they used for agriculture? And if so, why wouldn't they be much bigger? I would seem planting and harvesting crops in such strange fields wouldn't be very efficient or economical. Maybe they are pastures?


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Hedgerows help prevent soil erosion by winds and also provide habitat for various birds and other creatures. In pasture land they also keep the animals fenced in!

As most woodland in England had been chopped down by 1700 for fuel (which drove the expansion of coal mining and the industrial revolution) the countryside in many places would be quite bare without them.

These days the EU farming subsidies are mostly based on farmers following environmental management schemes rather than payments for production. If they want the money they have to do stuff like managing and maintaining hedges even if chopping them down would give more efficiency in the short term.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Manchester doesn't have a subway system but the tram network is being expanded significantly and there is a good suburban rail network.

The tram does get much faster when its on its own track in the suburbs but in the city centre streets and around Salford Quays it can be slow.


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## Caiman (Jul 11, 2003)

All that ‘I love London’ stuff at Manchester Airport is a bit ridiculous indeed... there is a store in Manchester Piccadilly (as well as in the Arndale, I believe) which sells all of the equivalent Manchester branded merchandise, though. 

This was a riveting trip report, honestly, really enjoyed coming back in here every day for the last few weeks to see your updates, thanks for sharing, I think you’ve opened the eyes of a few people resident here, let alone potential visitors!


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## openlyJane (Feb 3, 2010)

600West218 said:


> Yes, it would be nice to see plenty of large ocean going vessels docked there. I wonder how difficult that is with the tides.
> 
> One thing that intrigues me and I want to learn more about is how much of Liverpool is artificial - that is landfill that was built out into the Mersey precisely to make it more feasable to load and unload boats. I might be imagining this but I think I saw somewhere something that showed the original shoreline being around where the town hall is. And if that is true a couple hundred yards of Liverpool is man made.


You are right. A lot of land has been reclaimed from the river - all the way down to Garston in the south. Otterspool promenade was built using material that was excavated during the creation of the Mersey tunnel.

I am sure that someone will have some kind of diagram/map showing the original tide line - I haven't, and precise historical detail is not my thing; but Liverpool is a relatively modern city: it does not have any medieval buildings - and just a few that are tudor.

It was, largely, Victorian ingenuity and wealth that created the super city that it became.


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## woody (Jan 3, 2004)

*The thoughts and photo`s of wandering Dan*



600West218 said:


> Having said all this I know Liverpool and Manchester have a significant rivalry. I think they need to get over it. They are both quite nice and one of the selling points of Liverpool should be that it is close to Manchester and one of the selling points for Manchester would be that it is close to Liverpool. Further, I think anyone who lives in either of those cities and doesn't regularly visit the other is really missing out.


Dan, many thanks for this wonderful thread, you sure packed in a hell of a lot of interesting places on your wanderings. Being a "scouser" living in Manchester I agree 100% with your summary re: the city rivalry.

Sorry you missed out of those gifts, selling London gear in Manchester Airport is an outrage, but I hear that will all change. From 1st. April 2012, all london rubbish is to be replaced by charming, tasteful and expensive trinkets from LIVERPOOL:lol:

I hope you do return soon , we may be a small island, but we pack a big punch, so there is still plenty more industrial places for you to explore.:cheers:


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## skymantle (Jul 17, 2010)

PadArch said:


> Actually Italian has little or nothing to do with the roots of the English language. English belongs to the West-Germanic family of languages that also includes Dutch etc. The closest languages to English in the contemporary world are Frisian, Dutch, Afrikaans and the Scandinavian languages eg Norwegian. It is a wide misconception that English is a latin language. It isn't, however there are a huge number of Latin-originated words that have been imported into English, mostly via French, which was spoken by the rulers of England for around 300 years. Before the Norman invasion which introduced French vocabulary, English was more or less entirely Germanic, and despite the English language being suppressed for around 300 years, it eventually won out and soon the Kings who had previously only spoken French became native English speakers. Anyway, while we do have a lot of Latin-based vocab, the grammatical structure of English is nothing to do with Latin, and all of the 300 most commonly used words in English today (eg: the, and, of, with, etc) are also nothing to do with Latin, they are germanic words from old English origins.
> 
> Cheers


 English has nothing to do with Italian? I don't think so. Sure, grammatically English is Germanic, but the very letters we're writing in now and adopted by much of western Europe stems from Italy, ie the roots of the English language. There are literally thousands of common words in English that stem from latin and italian, via French or directly, and it's not hard to see those roots when you see Italian words.

Lets not forget, like North America was a colony of Britain, where they brought their culture, Britain was once a colony of Rome, and discovered by Greeks, and therefore has undeniable and intrinsic Graeco-Roman cultural roots.


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## Pennypacker (Mar 23, 2010)

skymantle said:


> English has nothing to do with Italian? I don't think so. Sure, grammatically English is Germanic, but the very letters we're writing in now and adopted by much of western Europe stems from Italy, ie the roots of the English language. There are literally thousands of common words in English that stem from latin and italian, via French or directly, and it's not hard to see those roots when you see Italian words.


Latin/Italic =/= Italian.

The same way that Germanic =/= German.


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

> Liverpool is a relatively modern city:it does not have any medieval buildings


All Saints in Childwall is Medieval Jane and so was that chapel in Maghull I recently took pictures of,I'm sure there's are some buildings in Sefton too?


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Nothing in the city centre though i think, those places were probably rural villages when built. :dunno:

Most of the northern belt grew rapidly from very little with the industrial revolution, either making stuff or shipping it. I can think of the two tudor pubs in Manchester city centre that were moved after the bomb but not much else older. Perhaps Chethams school of music :dunno: and the small Roman remains of course but not much...


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## future.architect (Jun 10, 2004)

Manchester Cathedral was built in 1421, Chetams school, around the same time.
Ordsall Hall is virtually in the city centre and is about 500 years old (the present building at least).

The oldest structures in Manchester are intact many of the main roads which radiate from the city centre such as Chester Road, which are of Roman origin.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

The cathedral and Chethams school must have looked a bit odd surrounded by mud huts at the time :laugh:


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

> Nothing in the city centre though i think


No but it's still Liverpool whatever way you look at it,the city's so much more than the City Centre as Dan found out.Remember Liverpool was the most bombed city outside of the capital and a huge chunk of it had to be rebuilt.The more you explore the region the better it gets.If you want to talk about the original Liverpool then you're talking about seven streets,Toxteth was rural and wasn't Liverpool at one time,it was a Royal Deer hunting park.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Of course, I'm just saying that the character of the city as a whole is mostly Georgian, Victorian and 20th century. There are the odd exceptions but they don't have much to do with the history of the city as a city, they are more remnants of the area before the city really took shape.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

Thank you for the amazing trip you took us on!


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## PadArch (Apr 1, 2010)

skymantle said:


> English has nothing to do with Italian? I don't think so. Sure, grammatically English is Germanic, but the very letters we're writing in now and adopted by much of western Europe stems from Italy, ie the roots of the English language. There are literally thousands of common words in English that stem from latin and italian, via French or directly, and it's not hard to see those roots when you see Italian words.
> 
> Lets not forget, like North America was a colony of Britain, where they brought their culture, Britain was once a colony of Rome, and discovered by Greeks, and therefore has undeniable and intrinsic Graeco-Roman cultural roots.


Yes Britain was a colony of Rome.. But the Romans left, and then hundreds of years later the country was invaded and colonised by the Anglo Saxons who were a tribe from the area between modern day Denmark and the very North of Germany.. It is from them we have our language - not the Romans. The "Eng" part of English comes from the Angles. The only Latin in the language didn't come from the original Roman settlers of Britain, but more through the spread of Christianity later on, and then on a larger scale from the impact of the normans.

The British languages were more or less pushed out and their languages have even less to do with English (manx, cornish, welsh, etc).

But you are correct that there are latin words in English.. I just had to point out that in no way is Italian the roots of English.


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## yoshef (Jun 22, 2007)

600West218 said:


> Yes, it would be nice to see plenty of large ocean going vessels docked there. I wonder how difficult that is with the tides.


Ah! The tides aren't difficult, they're very predictable, and have been for many hundreds of years thanks to the work of this smart chap, whose research is still used today!

The depth of the Mersey isn't a problem either; you could sit a huge oil tanker mid-river and even at low tide and it wouldn't get near the bottom. 

The openings and the depth of the docks themselves limit the size of the vessels that can enter. The entrances into the docks around the the Albert Dock are quite small so only small ships could get in. However, navigation between the different docks in that area is hindered by redeveloped fixed foot and vehicle bridges that no longer open up to allow ships to pass through. 



> One thing that intrigues me and I want to learn more about is how much of Liverpool is artificial - that is landfill that was built out into the Mersey precisely to make it more feasable to load and unload boats. I might be imagining this but I think I saw somewhere something that showed the original shoreline being around where the town hall is. And if that is true a couple hundred yards of Liverpool is man made.


I don't think the site of the current Town Hall itself was ever at the waters edge, but the Tower Buildings that you photographed (the building behind the Liver Building) was built on the site of the "Tower of Liverpool", which was a kind of riverside guardpost for the original town. Liverpool One sits on the site of the Old Dock, which in turn was constructed in a large tidal inlet, oddly enough called The Liver Pool!

I'm pretty sure that the majority of the seven miles of the dock estate on the Liverpool side of the river were built 'into' the river, rather than being excavated from land, with the exception being Stanely Dock. With that in mind, you could probably use the dock road and dock wall as a good divider between what is natural land and what is engineered.

This map might help you visualise it.. the red bit is my estimation of the original shoreline... You may find that the later docks where part constructed in river, part excavated, but I dunno, I'll ask around.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for the map. It is very interesting.

I wished I had walked to the football stadiums - they weren't far.

BTW, on the Wirral side it looks interesting just to the west of Hamilton Square where I was. In fact, that whole chunk of land looks like it may have been an island.


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## VoldemortBlack (Oct 31, 2009)

600West, you'll hate me for this!

It's been revealed that, from this Thursday, visitors will be able to go all the way up the clock tower at the Town Hall in Manchester. Great views apparently 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/16/manchester-town-hall-opens-clock-tower


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## kids (Dec 12, 2004)

600West218 said:


> Thanks for the map. It is very interesting.
> 
> I wished I had walked to the football stadiums - they weren't far.
> 
> BTW, on the Wirral side it looks interesting just to the west of Hamilton Square where I was. In fact, that whole chunk of land looks like it may have been an island.


I think Wallasey is an English name that means roughly foreigner (British/Welsh) island, as in the English name for Wales and William Wallace (who was Welsh descent.) Basically it means that when the Anglo Saxon tribes took The Wirral Peninsula there was still for some time some Welsh (which was spoken all over northern england before then) speakers surviving right at the very tip.


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## kids (Dec 12, 2004)

The Welsh name for Wallasey is Cilgwri. Of the cities you went to on your trip only Liverpool, Manchester and York have Welsh names that are still used there. Down to proximity I guess for Liverpool and Manchester and York due to historical significance. Lerpwl, Manceinion & Efrog respectively.

'W' in welsh is literally double u. OO. So Cilgoori/Lerpool to you or me.

Also I need to get a life.


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## kids (Dec 12, 2004)

Before I do that.



future.architect said:


> Manchester Cathedral was built in 1421, Chetams school, around the same time.
> Ordsall Hall is virtually in the city centre and is about 500 years old (the present building at least).
> 
> The oldest structures in Manchester are intact many of the main roads which radiate from the city centre such as Chester Road, which are of Roman origin.


There are a couple of Iron age forts at Mellor in Stockport and in Irlam in Salford but yeah he's not wrong there are tons of Roman roads radiating out of Manchester which was fairly central to the national network. Some of it actually survives on Blackstone Edge outside of Rochdale unbelievably.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

VoldemortBlack said:


> 600West, you'll hate me for this!
> 
> It's been revealed that, from this Thursday, visitors will be able to go all the way up the clock tower at the Town Hall in Manchester. Great views apparently
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/16/manchester-town-hall-opens-clock-tower


Holy cow, that belligerent e-mail I sent to David Cameron complaining about being denied entry to all the Town Halls worked!! :lol:

Another thing I like about England - responsive government :cheers:

Between not seeing the correct part of Ancoats, going up the town hall, and seeing the library where Marx studied I have more than enough to justify another trip to Manchester


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## yoshef (Jun 22, 2007)

kids said:


> I think Wallasey is an English name that means roughly foreigner (British/Welsh) island, as in the English name for Wales and William Wallace (who was Welsh descent.) Basically it means that when the Anglo Saxon tribes took The Wirral Peninsula there was still for some time some Welsh (which was spoken all over northern england before then) speakers surviving right at the very tip.


Spot on. In ancient times, Wallasey would have been disconnected from the Wirral by the "Wallasey Pool", where the docks are now, and Bidston Moss which was an area of marshland that continued all the way up to Leasowe. That Wallasey now connects to the rest of the Wirral is the result of substantial engineering works undertaken over the last two centuries to prevent the River Mersey forming a second outlet around the other side of Wallasey.

http://www.engineering-timelines.com/scripts/engineeringItem.asp?id=789

http://igor.gold.ac.uk/~mas01rwb/wirral-sea-defense/wirralSeaWall.pdf


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

It's a pity this had to end but hope to see pictures from another trip in the future. :cheers:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Yep, there will be trips back to England.

And I'll be looking forward to input from people here about things to see.

Thanks to everyone for all the amazing information that you have shared and especially to Paul who helped get my trip off to such a fantastic start in Liverpool.


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

^^I think you should go even more up there, like Newcastle, etc, which are often neglected by tourists.


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## Smarty (Jun 14, 2006)

600West218 said:


> Yep, there will be trips back to England.
> 
> And I'll be looking forward to input from people here about things to see.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for all the amazing information that you have shared and especially to Paul who helped get my trip off to such a fantastic start in Liverpool.


Just out of interest did you have many pre-conceptions of England before you came ? And how did they fare ?


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

Another potential trip on the industrial heritage theme would be in the Midlands. Birmingham/Black Country, Ironbridge/Coalbrookdale, The Potteries in Stoke-on-Trent and maybe Nottingham/Derby.


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## Smurfle (Nov 18, 2011)

Hello

I stumbled across your thread via a recommendation, and while I will take time to look closely at all pages, must confess I jumped to York and Durham as I have lived in York for 6 or 7 years and spent 4 happy years at University in Durham.

I hope I'm not repeating information already posted, but thought I could add a few bits to your photos...

Your first photo of the gravestones in York were cholera victims. Due to the horribly contagious nature of the disease, they had to be buried outside of the City walls.

The hotel which you said looked too expensive to stay in, was formerly the railway HQ building and was still owned by the railways up until the late 90's.

The street with the Punch Bowl pub on it is called Stonegate, and it was apparently the 3rd most expensive street to lease property in the UK (outside London).

Have you seen the film Elizabeth? If you watch it again you will recognise the interior of York Minister which was used for some of the Court scenes.

In the 1980's the Minster was hit by lightening and the Rose window was very badly damaged. It is now fully repaired but the lightening strike was supposed to have been provoked by the (then) Bishop of Durham's pronouncement that he didn't believe in the virgin birth...

Durham - while tiny - is simply a very special city to me. the Cathedral is awesome - in the true sense of the word. Its interior is much more austere than York but its starkness represents the region very well. When I was at University - 1990/94 - the coal mines in the area were being closed, yet each year the miners still marched through the City with their bands and flags. Durham reflects the industrial north combined with the strength of the Church.

I don't know if you walked down the Bailey, past St Chad's and St John's colleges? If you did you would have reached Prebends Bridge (which crosses the river Weir). There is a Victorian lamppost at that bridge, which supposedly inspired CS Lewis into bringing Narnia to life.

Anyway, I have rambled enough! Pleased to have found your photos.



ETA - it is lovely to see your country through the eyes of a visitor. Just like reading Bill Bryson's 'Notes from a Small Island'. Mr Bryson now being Chancellor of Durham University...


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## PadArch (Apr 1, 2010)

600West218 said:


> Yep, there will be trips back to England.
> 
> And I'll be looking forward to input from people here about things to see.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for all the amazing information that you have shared and especially to Paul who helped get my trip off to such a fantastic start in Liverpool.


If you ever come to London i'd be more than happy to point you to some old industrial gems!


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

600West218 said:


> Yep, there will be trips back to England.
> 
> And I'll be looking forward to input from people here about things to see.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for all the amazing information that you have shared and especially to Paul who helped get my trip off to such a fantastic start in Liverpool.


It was my pleasure Dan,thanks for such a great thread.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

PadArch said:


> If you ever come to London i'd be more than happy to point you to some old industrial gems!


Thanks for the offer. I'll be very happy to take you up on that in the not so distant future. :cheers:


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Smurfle said:


> Hello
> 
> I stumbled across your thread via a recommendation, and while I will take time to look closely at all pages, must confess I jumped to York and Durham as I have lived in York for 6 or 7 years and spent 4 happy years at University in Durham.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all that information. I'll try to refer back to the photos to try to make sense of it.

As I recall, I crossed two bridges. When I first entered the city from the train station I had to cross a bridge. Then when I was coming down from the cathedral I got to the square with the statue and turned right. That took me further down hill and eventually I crossed another bridge. Not sure if that is the one you are referring to.

One major hindrance in Durham was that they didn't have any place to check luggage at the train station. The result was I was carrying a pretty heavy bag around all the time which put a damper on my normal willingness to walk all over the place and explore. On future trips I will work to travel "lighter".


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Smarty said:


> Just out of interest did you have many pre-conceptions of England before you came ? And how did they fare ?


Yes, I definitely did.

First, off you have to keep in mind that most Americans tend to think they live better than anyone else in the world. The media here says that all the time and as the majority of Americans never travel outside of the United States they tend to believe it. And even though I have travelled some and tend to know better I still can't help but be effected by that way of thinking.

Plus, in the early 80s when I was a high school student I was in London for a few days with a school trip. Being honest, at the time it seemed somewhat run down and the people seemed a bit worn down - tired if you will. I can't explain exactly what gave me that impression (although one thing I recall making a negative impression on me were the old style taxis) but that is what I felt.

Finally, through some friends, I knew a young German man who had lived in London, working as an investment banker. While he liked London he pretty much described everything north of London as being a wasteland.

All that to say, on this trip I was looking forward to seeing lots of great historical sites and museums but I really didn't expect much of the cities. I thought they'd be old, maybe a bit run down, and just nothing special. I certainly didn't expect them to be lively. And I expected the standard of living to be noticeably lower in England than in the US.

All that was blown away on my first day as I walked around the center of Liverpool on a Saturday. I truly was stunned by the vibrancy of the place - there were so many people on the streets, there were so many stores (and nice stores at that!), the people were very lively - I was truly impressed with the vibrancy of the place. And each day and with each new city I visited I saw more and more of this vibrancy. It was truly amazing and I was constantly thinking "I would love to live here" which I think as a tourist is about the biggest compliment you can give a place.

It is hard to judge standards of living on a vacation but the houses I saw looked very nice, there were a great many upscale stores with lots of people shopping in them, the restaraunts and bars were full, and people seemed very fashionably dressed. Sure, maybe cars in England are smaller than in the US (I can't stand SUVs anyways) but in England you have access to health care and education in a way many Americans don't. So on balance the standards of living seemed pretty similar.

The museums turned out to be pretty good, though some of them weren't as good as I hoped they would be. But they were still very worthwhile places to visit. Best of all, they gave me an excuse to visit some amazing cities (and discover a whole country of canals which I was not expecting at all).

So there is one amazing and ironic thing here that I still can't figure out. In the early 80s it was the U.S. that seemed vibrant and England that seemed run down. Now, after this trip, I see them as having switched places - with England vibrant and the US being tired and run down. I can't really be sure if they actually switched places or just the impressions of a 47 year old man are likely to be very different from a 17 year old kid.

In any event, it is safe to say England was radically different than I expected and in a very good way.


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## Smarty (Jun 14, 2006)

Interesting and thanks for the reply. I think it's fair to say that the UK probably did look fairly run down in the early 80's. Most of the heavy industry declined through the 70's and 80's and at that point it hadn't yet been replaced. The recession of the early 80's was brutal. I think London picked up in the late 80's as financial and business services really began to take off as the main industry. The cities of the north perhaps didn't start to recover properly until the 1990's. 

I spent some time in Philadelphia the year before last and whilst I really liked the place, the levels of homelessness, poverty and dereliction were on a different scale to anything that you'd see here. There were whole areas that really didn't feel safe and whilst the city centre was great, after 7pm it was comparatively quiet apart from one or two areas which had lots of restaurants. I guess it's that sort of comparison that you're making. The city has loads of really good housing stock - brick built terraces. but apart from one or two areas of gentrification it's often allowed to get run down (and rot in some parts) which is a real shame. You get the impression that with a bit of investment the place could really soar.

Incidentally, we mostly drive smaller cars because of fuel efficiency. Petrol / gas costs around 3 or 4 times what it does in the US so people generally drive smaller cars. Plus parking in many cities can be an absolute nightmare.


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## EuxTex (Dec 26, 2009)

LondonFox said:


> The Lion is a national symbol of England (and therefore of the United Kingdom) and has been for many many centuries.


But the three lions, above, are all French. Honest.


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## VoldemortBlack (Oct 31, 2009)

LOL, Euxtex. What a fail.


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## MattN (Oct 25, 2008)

Jonesy55 said:


> Another potential trip on the industrial heritage theme would be in the Midlands. Birmingham/Black Country, Ironbridge/Coalbrookdale, The Potteries in Stoke-on-Trent and maybe Nottingham/Derby.


Indeed though Nottingham/Derby have plenty to offer, indeed my employer occupies one of our finest old industrial buildings. Leicester seems to have a greater density of surviving old factories etc, especially with chimneys, than anywhere else I've seen.


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## PortoNuts (Apr 26, 2008)

And don't forget Coventry! Derby is still a major industrial centre thanks to Rolls-Royce and other companies like Toyota and Bombardier.


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

I wouldn't have said that in the 80's the standard of living in the UK was worse than the US, but the UK was very depressed in the 80's, worse recession than today, except for rich people, this one is worse for them


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Expat said:


> 600West218, I don't wish to challenge you. But, since it came up, I will say something.
> 
> You said the US media portrays European or UK Healthcare Systems badly. That has not been my experience with our media. It makes me wonder what media outlets you follow. Perhaps some of the conservative media outlets may like to portray those systems as bad. People like Rush Limbaugh, etc. They have an agenda against socialized medicine. They do not represent mainstream US media. As Stephen Colbert said, "We all know that the truth has a liberal bias.":lol:
> 
> ...


See, in the US you can't say anything good about the British National Health Service without being forced out of your job hno: :

*Donald Berwick, who directed the U.S. health-care overhaul as head of the Medicare and Medicaid programs, resigned, and President Barack Obama nominated Berwick’s top deputy to run the effort.

Berwick’s confirmation as chief of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services has been blocked by Senate Republicans, who say comments he made in the past criticizing the U.S. health system and complimenting the British National Health Service rendered him unfit for the job.
*

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...anning-to-resign-amid-confirmation-block.html

Makes me wonder how long it will be before I get fired from my job at a hospital for having written favorable things about the British health care system in this thread. :bash:


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## Expat (May 25, 2005)

Those barbarians make me sick.hno: Don't even get me started.:bash:


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## Paul D (Jul 3, 2004)

I thought America prided itself on free speech,surely acting in that way is unconstitutional?


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## parsonsnose (Dec 11, 2010)

Dam you Dan, just came across this thread this morning and sat here for hours reading it:
Couldn't tear myself away, now I've got to run around doing all the things I should have done this morning. lol:
But thank you so much for such a well written, thoughtful thread, and of course all of the wonderful pics.
If you're not a travel guide you're in the wrong job.


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## 600West218 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks. Well, being a travel guide would be nice. But thruthfully, most of this is owed to all the Skyscrapercity folks who gives such good advice. I got a lot of really great tips in the UK skybar before going on the trip and it really worked out great. One of them even gave me a personal tour in Liverpool. 

So I really recommend getting advice in the forum of whatever country you are visiting before you go. Skycrapercity - its the only way to travel 

BTW, before too long it will be time for industrial UK round two - this time doing more the area around the Midlands and Birmingham though I might try to hit some stuff I missed in Manchester and Liverpool too.


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## parsonsnose (Dec 11, 2010)

As you're thread has given so much pleasure (not just to me), allow me to try and return the favour in some small way.
I don't know if you have ever heard of Fred Dibnah, but if you haven't, google him and you will not be disappointed.
He was an enthusiast on most of the things that you are and there should be many films of him available online.


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