# World's most liberal and progressive city!



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

Consider:

1) Country where it is located and its social policies towards 
a. Ethnic, relgious and linguisitic minorities
b. LGBT 
c. Disabled
d. Women
e. The less affluent

2) Ethnic diversity
3) Size of LGBT population
4) Size of arts scene
5) Inclussiveness of minorities.
6) Social and economic equality
7) Size and diversity of nightlife
8) Drug policy


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

My candidates are as follows:

-The three big Canadian cities, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. Though I must say, in all impartiality (seeing as I am from neither, and have spent considerable time in all three, but presently I'm in Montreal) that I believe Montreal is the most liberal and progressive fo the three. Only by a very thin margin, seeing as all three are extremely liberal and progressive.

-Northern and central European cities such as Amsterdam, Berlin, Copenhague, Stockholm and Oslo. Amsterdam is especially hailed as one of the most liberal cities in the world.

-World cities such as Paris, London and New York just because of their sheer size.

Honourable mentions to Sydney, Cape Town, Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires and medium-sized cities in Europe such as Barcelona, Madrid, Hamburg, Manchester, Lisbon, Vienna, Zurich, etc. As well as large American cities such as San Francisco, L.A. and Chicago. Though seeing as the U.S. is falling into a black hole of biggotry, I wouldn't be surprised if the bible-thumping, flag-waving, Bush-loving, troops-supporting spread to these cities like a plague... There is already some evidence of it.


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## wjfox (Nov 1, 2002)

San Francisco, Amsterdam, London, Toronto and New York are the cities which spring to mind for me.


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## pottebaum (Sep 11, 2004)

.affed said:


> Though seeing as the U.S. is falling into a black hole of biggotry, I wouldn't be surprised if the bible-thumping, flag-waving, Bush-loving, troops-supporting spread to these cities like a plague... There is already some evidence of it.


Oh come on! You're just applying stereotypes. If religion is your problem, the % of Americans who are Chritian has dropped by about 10% since 1990. Bush's approval rating is incredibly low, and I see no problem with supporting the troops. They're putting their asses on the line, fixing the mistakes of our government.


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## car-zg (May 21, 2005)

I am happy couse America is turning back to conservatisam from liberalisam, i hope that europe will do that too


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## mad_nick (May 13, 2004)

I don't think the bible-thumpers will spread to New York or San Francisco anytime soon (in any significant numbers anyways), but I agree that the political climate in the US today is far from progressive, in fact, in some ways I'd even say it's regressive. Liberalism is looked down upon by many Americans, "liberal" has become a 4-letter word, it's ridiculous.
I think the problem in large part lies in the large power the churches still wield in America, they propagate hate towards gays, liberals, anyone they find to be "immoral" for whatever reason, and anyone else who disagrees with them. It may sound like I'm generalizing, and to a degree I am, but there's no denying that huge parts of the US, especially the south, is under the spell of these extremely conservative churches.

As for the most liberal/progressive city in the world, it's probably Amsterdam, which has a reputation of being very liberal, though the other northern European cites come close.
NY and SF are both quite liberal, along with a few other American cities (note that democrat != liberal), but because of the political climate in the US as a whole, IMO they wouldn't qualify as some of the most liberal/progressive in the world.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Paris, London, New York, L.A are off topic, too much social inequality in those cities.

Then I would say some mid-sized canadian city, or maybe those Scandinavian capitals.


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## LuckyLuke (Mar 29, 2005)

In germany: Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne

In Europe: Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Barcelona, London, Paris, Brussels.


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## Æsahættr (Jul 9, 2004)

1) Amsterdam
2) Toronto
3) Sydney
4) London
5) Copenhagen(sp?)
6) Stockholm
7) Paris
8) Vancouver
9) San Fransisco
10) New York


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

Amsterdam or a Scandinavian city seems most likely.


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## ROCguy (Aug 15, 2005)

I don't like the rampanht conservatism or bashing of liberals and blaiming them for everything in America today either, but tell me, what is so wrong with being religious? Not all religous people are hickass bible-thumping wackos, in fact, most aren't. The US is about 50/50 right now with people considered "liberal" and "conservative", but 86% if Americans believe in God. What is so bad about believing in God? Don't get me wrong, I hate Bush, and the coldhearted republican party right now a lot, but I find nothing wrong with being christian, or any religion for that matter.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

lotrfan55345 said:


> 1) Amsterdam
> 2) Toronto
> 3) Sydney
> 4) London
> ...


Montreal is more progressive than TO or Van.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

^^

Totally...


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## Gilgamesh (Apr 1, 2005)

*Tel Aviv* :cheers2:


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

Amsterdam without a doubt.


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

.affed said:


> My candidates are as follows:
> 
> -The three big Canadian cities, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. Though I must say, in all impartiality (seeing as I am from neither, and have spent considerable time in all three, but presently I'm in Montreal) that I believe Montreal is the most liberal and progressive fo the three. Only by a very thin margin, seeing as all three are extremely liberal and progressive.
> 
> ...


Not like this thread hasn't been done before...

I agree with your list and what others said.

But if there is to be a definitative answer it surely must be Amsterdam.


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

btw...if Madrid and Barcelona are "mediumsized cities", what are large cities?:dunno:
(and SF is large, despite it being smaller?)

(Barcelona almost 5 million, Madrid almost 6 million)


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

SHiRO said:


> Not like this thread hasn't been done before...


Not like every one of two fucking threads on the forums haven't been doen before...


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## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

Nouvellecosse said:


> Montreal is more progressive than TO or Van.


How so??? Id same they are all fairly even only difference is Toronto accepts far more immigrants putting it a level up.


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## EarlyBird (Oct 2, 2004)

pottebaum said:


> and I see no problem with supporting the troops. They're putting their asses on the line, fixing the mistakes of our government.


Or amplify them, depending on your point of view.

Did I mention that ITV and the X Factor are liars?


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

DrJoe said:


> How so??? Id same they are all fairly even only difference is Toronto accepts far more immigrants putting it a level up.


-Montreal is far superior as far as culture goes, culture being an engine for progressive ideas.
-Toronto doesn't accept FAR more immigrants. More immigrants go to Toronto because the vast majority of Canada's immigration falls under family reunification, meaning that if you already have a high pool of immigrants, more immigrants will flock to that place. It's a virtuous (or vicious--depending on how you want to look at it) cycle.
-The status of women is far superior in Quebec than it is in the rest of Canada, including "the centre of the world."
-Quebec, with it's left-leaning, social-democratic policies (moreso than the rest of Canada) has made of Montreal highly egalitarian. Toronto homelessness anyone?
-As a gay man myself, I would say that the level of inclusion of LGBT citizens is higher in Montreal than in Toronto.


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## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

Well I am not buying any of that. I wont go any further though, I love Montreal and dont feel like getting in a fight over it.


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## WillesdenGreen (Jul 6, 2005)

> I am happy couse America is turning back to conservatisam from liberalisam, i hope that europe will do that too


Little chance of that - even the most right-wing of European parties - such as our BNP - support the welfare state and almost all centre-right parties are to the LEFT of the democrats.

Incidentially, wasnt Clinton's presidency one of the largest economic growth and greatest social equality in American history?


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## Breakwood (Oct 10, 2004)

ROCguy said:


> I don't like the rampanht conservatism or bashing of liberals and blaiming them for everything in America today either, but tell me, what is so wrong with being religious? Not all religous people are hickass bible-thumping wackos, in fact, most aren't. The US is about 50/50 right now with people considered "liberal" and "conservative", but 86% if Americans believe in God. What is so bad about believing in God? Don't get me wrong, I hate Bush, and the coldhearted republican party right now a lot, but I find nothing wrong with being christian, or any religion for that matter.


I agree there is nothing wrong with religion, but I think religion has no place in Government. Believe what you want, but I dont want my government creating laws that are based on religion. I want laws based on what is the best for everybody. Anybody who wants to practice a religion can go ahead and do whatever they want aslong as it doesnt adversly affect anybody else.


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## Azn_chi_boi (Mar 11, 2005)

I first think of San Fransico and Amsterdam


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## DetoX (May 12, 2004)

> I am happy couse America is turning back to conservatisam from liberalisam, i hope that europe will do that too


I hope not.

Anyway: Amsterdam, Berlin, Hamburg, San Francisco.


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## Sitback (Nov 1, 2004)

European cities are liberal on a whole different scale to the other continents.


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## ROCguy (Aug 15, 2005)

Breakwood said:


> I agree there is nothing wrong with religion, but I think religion has no place in Government. Believe what you want, but I dont want my government creating laws that are based on religion. I want laws based on what is the best for everybody. Anybody who wants to practice a religion can go ahead and do whatever they want aslong as it doesnt adversly affect anybody else.


My point exactly, should have said, I am in favor of he seperation of church and state. Going to church can be a great thing to do, you go and practice your beliefs. But one groups beliefs shouldn't dictate the entire country.


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## ROCguy (Aug 15, 2005)

WillesdenGreen said:


> Little chance of that - even the most right-wing of European parties - such as our BNP - support the welfare state and almost all centre-right parties are to the LEFT of the democrats.
> 
> Incidentially, wasnt Clinton's presidency one of the largest economic growth and greatest social equality in American history?



Yes, it was, and whiny republcians can only focus on the fact that he had sex with monica lewinski..... so f***ing what, at least he didn't give us a 9 trillion dollar defecit!!!! Silly FNC watchers. He could' screw a zebra for all I care, at least we weren't in a stupid never ending war and the economy wasn't in shambles when he was the president.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

"Honourable mentions to Sydney, Cape Town, Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires and medium-sized cities in Europe such as Barcelona, Madrid, Hamburg, Manchester, Lisbon, Vienna, Zurich, etc. As well as large American cities such as San Francisco, L.A. and Chicago. Though seeing as the U.S. is falling into a black hole of biggotry, I wouldn't be surprised if the bible-thumping, flag-waving, Bush-loving, troops-supporting spread to these cities like a plague... There is already some evidence of it."

Funny how nobody mentioned any Asian cities.

Cape Town does not strike me as liberal. I don't think any city in South Africa is.

Keep in mind that most US conservative, bible thumpers live in suburban sprawl or trailer parks. US cities are some of the most liberal places on the planet despite our "Jesus lives" politics.


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## NovaWolverine (Dec 28, 2004)

I agree that parts of europe are liberal on an entirely different scale that other continents, for good or bad in some cases.


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## car-zg (May 21, 2005)

grafiti in Zagreb:


DEATH TO UNTOLLERANT


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

While European cities are more liberal than their North American conterparts, when it comes to *5) Inclussiveness of minorities. * European cities are well behind their North American counterparts. There are far higher levels of xenophobia in Europe than anywhere in North America.


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## ReddAlert (Nov 4, 2004)

EarlyBird said:


> Or amplify them, depending on your point of view.
> 
> Did I mention that ITV and the X Factor are liars?


You are really pissed about that arent you?


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## ReddAlert (Nov 4, 2004)

for me....
Local:Madison/Chicago/Toronto
National:San Francisco
World:Amsterdam, London,


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## desiguy8179 (Jul 6, 2005)

birmingham alabama,jackson missisippi


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## Travis007 (Jul 19, 2004)

North America: San Francisco, NYC, Toronto, Chicago

World: Sydney, Jo'burg, London, Amsterdam


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

*Europe*

Amsterdam, Copenhagen and London


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

HirakataShi said:


> While European cities are more liberal than their North American conterparts, when it comes to *5) Inclussiveness of minorities. * European cities are well behind their North American counterparts. There are far higher levels of xenophobia in Europe than anywhere in North America.


Bullcrap.


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

SHiRO said:


> Bullcrap.


Not at all

http://www.hri.ca/racism/official/robinson.shtml

_ Among the general aspects which should be noted are: 

An overall increase in intolerance towards foreigners, asylum seekers and minorities. 
ill-treatment of members of minority groups by police, immigration and other officials. 
Discrimination in the workplace and the service sector. 
More people prepared to openly acknowledge that they hold racist views. One survey put the number of French people describing themselves as racist at 38%, with 45% of Belgians,23% of Germans and 22% of British people placing themselves in the same category. 
A rise in support for political parties espousing far right causes: Austria, Switzerland and Belgium being examples. 
The emergence of racist attitudes in societies where it had not been so evident before: Finland, Spain and Ireland, for example. _

http://www.geopoliticalreview.com/archives/000814.php

_ A recent study completed by the European Union indicates Europeans are growing more intolerant of immigrants. Here is a summary of the study's findings courtesy of Reuters:
- 60 percent in the former EU of 15 states and 42 percent in the 10 mainly east European states that joined the EU last year believed there were "limits to multicultural society." - nearly 40 percent across the EU opposed granting legal immigrants full civil rights. 
- 50 percent expressed "resistance to immigrants." 
- 58 percent saw a "collective ethnic threat" from immigration, meaning they answered yes to questions including whether immigrants threaten jobs and a country's culture, add to crime problems and make a country a worse place to live. 
The study said the largest increases across the six years of polling were in support for sending immigrants home and the view _


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

sean storm said:


> montreal? please. since when was montreal more "liberal" in spirit than SF?


Since gay marriage is legal in Montreal and illegal in SF maybe...


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

And there is a lot more to liberalism than homosexual rights, a city that is liberal towards homosexuals but who is plagued by homelessness is not liberal in my book.


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## Renkinjutsushi (Dec 4, 2004)

SHiRO said:


> Since gay marriage is legal in Montreal and illegal in SF maybe...


But that isn't the city's fault.


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## crazyjoeda (Sep 10, 2004)

Vancouver, Amsterdam or Montreal. Im woundering why so many people are putting Toronto above Vancouver? What is so liberal and progressive about Toronto? Vancouver has effectivly decriminalize pot on orders of the mayor and has the only safe injection site in North America.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

sean storm said:


> you obviously don't know SF. and you're a homosexual. shame on you.... :nono:


But how well do you know Montreal?



sean storm said:


> montreal? please. since when was montreal more "liberal" in spirit than SF? SF epitomizes all that is unorthodox in american culture, and to a larger extent western culture as a whole. especially in the realm of sexuality. there aren't any other cities in the world that can say nearly half-million people come to celebrate S/M fetishes out in the streets.
> 
> anyone that claims that SF "isnt' liberal anymore" due to it being in the US is not only ignorant but frankly quite stupid.
> 
> when you ask the general public which cities are most famous for being liberal, it's SF and Amsterdam. london? give me a break.


A city being famous for something doesn't necessarily mean any more than that (that it's famous). That certainly doesn't prove that it's the ultimate example. San Francisco is an icon. It is where people (especially in the US) place their focus when they think of liberalism, but that's due to both the huge US media hype machine, and the fact that it is (debatably) the most liberal place in a country that has quite a few conservative people. Compared to these people there's a marked contrast, which attracts the attention of people who may not even notice [San's liberalism] if the city was somewhere else.


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## partybits (Apr 29, 2005)

crazyjoeda said:


> Vancouver, Amsterdam or Montreal. Im woundering why so many people are putting Toronto above Vancouver? What is so liberal and progressive about Toronto? Vancouver has effectivly decriminalize pot on orders of the mayor and has the only safe injection site in North America.


I honestly don't know if Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver are more progressive, and really don't care. There all very progressive, and have unique attributes that in themselves make it liberal. However I don't think what you are using to judge progressivness is fair. Drug use is by far the least important aspect of liberalism.
To me liberalism means tolerance to others, care for the less advantaged, multiculturism, thriving arts scene, etc. Drugs and prostitution are at the bottom of this list.
Technically, I can argue that all cities are very conservative because we have'nt legalized Crack Cocaine and Heroin. Why are'nt we tolerant to our crack heads who just want to shoot up all the time? And if Toronto for some reason decides to have a designated red light district where ALL drugs are legal, does that then make us more progressive than any city in the world?


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

virtual said:


> And there is a lot more to liberalism than homosexual rights, a city that is liberal towards homosexuals but who is plagued by homelessness is not liberal in my book.


Absolutely, I agree. In this regard, SF cannot compete... SF and US cities are plagued by homelessness and social and economic inequalities based on ethnic and racial profiling.

Like Nouvellecosse said, SF is just a big brand. Marketing, popular culture, music, film, etc have made of SF synonimous with "liberalism." Plus, let's not forget how successful the Americans are at showcasing their country. This makes people think that the city is indeed one of the most progressive places in the world. The reality is totally different though. Just because homosexuals have a little more acceptance in SF than elsewhere in the US does not put it as high as Canadian or northern European cities. SF is a "liberal" city in a highly conservative country, or course it sticks out!


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

I would say Amsterdam, followed by Copenhagen, London and maybe Hamburg. Toronto is behind these cities in my opinion.

Do you all realise that the "right-wingest" parties in many European countries (especially in the north and west) are left of the US democrats?


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## Zaki (Apr 16, 2005)

.affed said:


> Haha!!! Toronto and Ottawa before Montreal? Calgary and Halifax but not Vancouver? You're obviously full of shit... :|


I think the one full of shit is you. Montreal is in no way more liberal than toronto. I mean for example you must have french in store signs in montreal. Toronto has no such law. And plus montreal has tons of quebec seperatists who are extremely violent towards immigrants since they see them as the reason why quebec is not its own nation. Sure montreal is a very liberal city, but it does not compare to toronto or ottawa, or even vancouver.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

staff said:


> I would say Amsterdam, followed by Copenhagen, London and maybe Hamburg. Toronto is behind these cities in my opinion.
> 
> Do you all realise that the "right-wingest" parties in many European countries (especially in the north and west) are left of the US democrats?


I don't know if you're aware that Toronto is not in the U.S...

Anyway, I disagree entirely with your ignorant statement. Canadian cities are just as liberal, if not moreso, than European cities.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"Vancouver has the only safe injection site in North America."


It probably has the most un-safe injection sites in North America too. LOL






KGB


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

.affed,

Where did I write that Toronto is in the US? I was in T.O only a couple of months ago, and from what I experienced, it is on a completely different level than its European counterparts. It is still a great and spectacular city, though.

I haven't been to either Montréal or Van-city, so it is indeed pretty hard to make a fair judgement. The reason I compared the Euro-cities with Toronto is simply that it has been mentioned numerous times in this specific thread, plus I've been there.

Let me just put it this way - of all the cities I've visited in the world, Amsterdam and Copenhagen would be the most liberal and progressive.


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

.affed said:


> I don't know if you're aware that Toronto is not in the U.S...
> 
> Anyway, I disagree entirely with your ignorant statement. Canadian cities are just as liberal, if not moreso, than European cities.


You're making a fool out of yourself, affed.
Just recently, staff visited Toronto so I'm sure he knows where it is.

Better be careful with words such as "ignorant", as if you were any better.
Quote: _"Canadian cities are just as liberal, *if not moreso*, than European cities."_ :|


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

Hehe damn, you beat me to it, staff. :lol:


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

The most liberal cities that I have been to - except for AMSTERDAM, where I live, are - in no particular order: 

1. Copehnagen
2. Stockholm
3. Brussels
4. Madrid
5. Barcelona
6. Berlin
7. Hamburg
9. Cologne
10. London
11. San Francisco
12. New York
13. Paris (surprisingly)
14. Helsinki
15. Oslo
16. Sydney

I don't know Canadian cities unfortunately.


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

By the way, to make Canadians happy. A good Dutch friend of mine lived 5 years in Toronto and he said that it was as liberal as Amsterdam


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## doady (May 23, 2004)

Toronto elected a conservative buffoon of a mayor two terms in a row, so it is not really all that liberal.


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## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

^ Mel was an odd phenomena, I think he was elected more as some kind of character than he was on his policy. Doesnt matter now, Miller is in currently in office and it is safe to say he is about as liberal a mayor as you can get.


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

.affed said:


> Absolutely, I agree. In this regard, SF cannot compete... SF and US cities are plagued by homelessness and social and economic inequalities based on ethnic and racial profiling.


Canadian cities also have a serious homeless situation.


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

doady said:


> Toronto elected a conservative buffoon of a mayor two terms in a row, so it is not really all that liberal.


True. The same guy who declared homelessness as a National Disaster, lol.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

Nate said:


> This is true... Saskatchewan is still quite conservative (in the rural areas especially), and we have had a socialist goverment (NDP) for the past 5 elections I think... and the majority of the provinces past governments have been socialist as well (after all we introduced medicare to the rest of Canada).


This is a common mistake Canadians make. The names of provincial parties are often deceiving. Federal and provincial parties, even if they have the same name, are not associated, especially in ideology. Take the BC Liberals who are as conservative as the federal Conservatives. The Quebec Liberals who are the same, etc.


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## Homer J. Simpson (Dec 2, 2003)

.affed said:


> Obvious... duh. :| What I said is that the provincial and federal governments are just as liberal if not more liberal than the people itself. It is they who bring about social change, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is true that upper levels of government sometimes do the right thing, but not often. In Toronto, people have lobbied the province for later bar hours. This effort has been unsuccessfull because the Provincial government is more conservative than the city.

Language laws may have been brought about with good intentions, but have led to systematic descrimination of minorities. Regardless of what you think about their "bearing" on liberal/progressivism, it is still and infringement on one and a step backwards on the other.

Quebec's social net is about as sturdy as Ontario and Alberta makes it.

The Liberal Party is not by European standards liberal, the Liberal party is mearly more liberal than the Conservative party.

France and GB may not be as "Liberal" as Canada is today, but both nations have had their share of success in this area. GB had it's influx of immigrants from the east far before Canada. France enjoys a very high life satisfaction per capita rating because of the French laws dictating holidays and work benifits which are still better than we have here in Canada. Canada still remains a very boring and conservative place beyond a few large cities.

As for your travel, you seem to have done okay but your record is well.... piss poor compared to my life experience. So don't try and play that card.


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

.affed said:


> No. It's the typical attitude taken by the government of a jurisdiction of 5 million French speakers completely surrounded by 300 million English speakers, in an increasingly globalised world, where homogenisation tends to be the rule.


So what you're suggesting is that there's _*fear*_ that somehow the three hundred million English will "forcefully" assimilate the French population and turn them into anglophones, am I correct? Well, that's what we call xenophobia (in mild form). 

If the French are proud of their heritage, it will naturally last. There's no need for enforcing language laws or sending out the language police to dictate the ideals of French Nationalists. 

If Quebec is so worried about losing French, why doesn't it actively promote it outside of the province? Afterall, Canada is a bilingual country, and no one in English Canada actively opposes learning the French language. Why not encourage more Quebecers to live abroad in English Canada and lay down French roots there? The Metis have already done this to some success.


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## Nate (Oct 26, 2004)

.affed said:


> This is a common mistake Canadians make. The names of provincial parties are often deceiving. Federal and provincial parties, even if they have the same name, are not associated, especially in ideology. Take the BC Liberals who are as conservative as the federal Conservatives. The Quebec Liberals who are the same, etc.


I'm not mistaken in this case. I live here, and have lived here all my life.

Saskatchewan is very socialist, and is known by most of Canada as being such.

I know the federal NDP is different from the Saskatchewan one... the federal NDP never gets a seat in Saskatchewan.


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

.affed said:


> This is a common mistake Canadians make. The names of provincial parties are often deceiving. Federal and provincial parties, even if they have the same name, are not associated, especially in ideology. Take the BC Liberals who are as conservative as the federal Conservatives. The Quebec Liberals who are the same, etc.


Hold your horses. That is far from the truth. Campbell's just as fiscally conservative as Martin, and the Campbell government has supported the decriminalization of marijuana & the legalizaton of gay marriage. Furthermore, it has never tried to stop the establishment of safe-injection sites. It's no more different than the Federal Liberals (if they were in a majority position).


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

Homer J. Simpson said:


> your record is well.... piss poor compared to my life experience.


Which consists of scratching your ass and picking your nose, or what exactly? Because it sounds like your playing the "I'm-better-than-you-without-letting-you-know-why-and-how" card.

Anyway, your arguments have become totally irrelevant, so I won't bother...


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

Nate said:


> I'm not mistaken in this case. I live here, and have lived here all my life.
> 
> Saskatchewan is very socialist, and is known by most of Canada as being such.
> 
> I know the federal NDP is different from the Saskatchewan one... the federal NDP never gets a seat in Saskatchewan.


So what exactly was your point then? :|


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## Nate (Oct 26, 2004)

.affed said:


> So what exactly was your point then? :|


I was just enforcing rt_0891's point that not all socialist places are liberal by giving an example. Hence why I quoted him in my post. :|


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

rt_0891 said:


> Hold your horses. That is far from the truth. Campbell's just as fiscally conservative as Martin, and the Campbell government has supported the decriminalization of marijuana & the legalizaton of gay marriage. Furthermore, it has even supported safe-injection sites. It's no more different than the Federal Liberals (if they were in a majority position).


Tell that to the thousands of British Columbians who have fallen into homelessness since Canpbell got into power. Try and get support for safe-injection sites and same-sex marriage in Revelstoke, BC. The BC Liberals are extremely conservative. They're in power because they're not the NDP and because interior British Columbians are as conservative as it gets in Canada.


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

.affed said:


> This is a common mistake Canadians make. The names of provincial parties are often deceiving. Federal and provincial parties, even if they have the same name, are not associated, especially in ideology. Take the BC Liberals who are as conservative as the federal Conservatives. The Quebec Liberals who are the same, etc.


Actually, the NDP party is the only political party in Canada that's expected to take the same party line, and where provincial parties are directly affilated to their federal counterparts. 

Also, Sask's NDP party is a member of Socialists International. According to you, any member of the organization would abide to all the principles posted in the previous page. Yet, as Nate has mentioned, Sask's NDP party's does not extoll a socially liberal political line.

See the contradiction? Clearly you're too ignorant to see that.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

Nate said:


> I was just enforcing rt_0891's point that not all socialist places are liberal by giving an example. Hence why I quoted him in my post. :|


But my point is that your idea is a contradiction. In modern political theory social-democratic ideas and social liberalism (i.e. not pertaining to economic issues) are inseparable.


----------



## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

.affed said:


> Tell that to the thousands of British Columbians who have fallen into homelessness since Canpbell got into power. Try and get support for safe-injection sites and same-sex marriage in Revelstoke, BC. The BC Liberals are extremely conservative. They're in power because they're not the NDP and because interior British Columbians are as conservative as it gets in Canada.


Yeah, and tell Martin and the Federal Liberal Party that since they've been in party, the percentage of children in poverty in Canada has increased, the percentage of homeless from sea-to-sea has increased and food bank user rates have soared in almost every urban centre. Also, remind him of the increasing poverty rates and the higher percentage of low-income earners we now have in the country. ~ And the devastating downloading formulas that squeezed every public service in the country to its limit... 

I'm sorry, but Revelstoke is a city in its own right, and the Campbell government's not going to force them to open a safe-injection centre if they don't want or need one. 

Also, get real. BCers in the interior are not as conservative as you think they are. I'll have a wager that they're no more different than rural Quebecers living outside of Montreal.


----------



## Homer J. Simpson (Dec 2, 2003)

.affed said:


> Which consists of scratching your ass and picking your nose, or what exactly? Because it sounds like your playing the "I'm-better-than-you-without-letting-you-know-why-and-how" card.
> 
> Anyway, your arguments have become totally irrelevant, so I won't bother...



Not that it is terribly relevent to this thread to anybody but you, so here it is.

Stays in Countries for no more than 1 year or less than one month:
1) GB
2) Greece
3) France
4) Canada
5) United States
6) Singapore
7) Malaysia
8) Italy
9) Spain
10) S. Korea
^Those are the important ones.

Stays of about a month or in non-consecutive stretches:
1) Sweden
2) Ireland
3) Denmark
4) Norway
5) Switzerland
6) Germany
7) Austria
8) UAE (Dubai)

Stays of about a week or two:
1) Australia
2) Japan
3) Taiwan
4) Mexico


There are a few more than I am too lazy to list at the moment but you have enough to get the picture.

I left my native country when I was about 6, since then I have spend most of my time in western Europe and several months in Singapore and Malaysia. That was until I was nearing 12 1/2 - 13 when my family and I moved to Chicago. We were there for a year before finally settling in Toronto where I have lived for the remainder of that time with the exception of 13 months which were split between Chicago and Europe as well as numerous other small trips.

I hope you enjoyed my biography .Affred! I think it is time to get back to the real topic of this thread. :wave:


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

rt_0891 said:


> as Nate has mentioned, Sask's NDP party's does not extoll a socially liberal political line.


Because Nate is the most revered authority in political theory and the politics of his province...

Social-democratic ideals and social liberalism are analogous.


----------



## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

Nate said:


> I was just enforcing rt_0891's point that not all socialist places are liberal by giving an example. Hence why I quoted him in my post. :|


Thank-you for your valuable insight. 

Some people here are just too partisan and blind to face the facts.


----------



## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

.affed said:


> Because Nate is the most revered authority in political theory and the politics of his province...
> 
> Social-democratic ideals and social liberalism are analogous.


Are you a political science major? I mean, if you are, you should know that politics is constantly changing to fit into society's fabric, and while ideologies are absolute, real politics are not. 

I'm surprised that you're actually willing to draw such a conclusion with such weak evidence.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

Homer J. Simpson said:


> Not that it is terribly relevent to this thread to anybody but you, so here it is.
> 
> Stays in Countries for no more than 1 year or less than one month:
> 1) GB
> ...


Lovely... How my experience is "piss poor" compared to this? I don't know... Because if you were trying to impress me, you have failed.

Back to topic.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

rt_0891 said:


> I'm surprised that you're actually willing to draw such a conclusion with such weak evidence.


Exactly what evidence have you provided to prove your arguments? Nate from Saskatchewan? What's next?


----------



## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

.affed said:


> Exactly what evidence have you provided to prove your arguments? Nate from Saskatchewan? What's next?


I'm not the one suggesting that there's a direct link between socialism and liberal-progessive policies, you are. 

And evidence. Look at Sasketchewan, Venezuala, Eastern Europe 

Don't tell me you've run out of bright ideas.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

rt_0891 said:


> I'm not the one suggesting that there's a direct link between socialism and liberal-progessive policies, you are.
> 
> Don't tell me you've run out of bright ideas.


You have just bitten yourself in the ass...

Earlier you said:


rt_0891 said:


> And no, socialist governments do not automatically equal a liberal and progessive society. It's just pure coincidence that a host of socialist countries have chosen to adopt liberal social policies.


I never said liberal ideals were inherently socialist. I said socialist ideals were inherently socially-liberal. There's a big difference. I stand by my point because I, and most literate people, know it's true.

I understand though, some people are easily confused...


----------



## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

.affed said:


> Consider:
> 
> 1) Country where it is located and its social policies towards
> a. Ethnic, relgious and linguisitic minorities
> ...


I have always wondered what the non-white countries' policies toward whites are. I wonder what their tolerancy level is?


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

polako said:


> I have always wondered what the non-white countries' policies toward whites are. I wonder what their tolerancy level is?












Ever heard of Robert Mugabe?


----------



## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

.affed said:


> Ever heard of Robert Mugabe?


Scary stuff. I would never want to live in a non-white country, especially South Africa or Zimbabwe. The funny thing is that I was looking at a couple of 70's National Geographics and on the pictures whites were walking through the central cities of S. Africa and Zimbabwe as if they were not in danger of any kind. Today most of those whites have moved to white countries or they live in gated communities in the suburbs.


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

.affed said:


> I'm sorry but none of the European cities named (except A'dam) can claim to having one of the biggest most vibrant gay neighbourhoods in the world, such as the Montreal Gay Village. They can't claim to hosting the biggest circuit party in the world, such as the "Black and Blue" in Montreal. None of these cities can claim to having the biggest number of strip-clubs per capita in the world, as is the case in Montreal. None of these cities can claim to having the nightlife that Montreal has, nor can they claim to having such lenient enforcement of alcohol and drug consumption laws, as is the case in Montreal.
> 
> Copenhagen, Stokholm and Oslo might be liberal, but they certainly do no surpass Montreal.


There's more to it than gay parties - and like _tictac_ stated, all cities with dignity have gay neighbourhoods and gay parades. Copenhagen is way ahead of Montréal in all other departments.



polako said:


> I would never want to live in a non-white country, especially Sout Africa


You consider South Africa a "non-white" country?


----------



## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

staff said:


> You consider South Africa a "non-white" country?


Well yeah. Non-whites make up 90.4% of its population.


----------



## Monty Burns (Sep 8, 2005)

Nouvellecosse said:


> Montreal is more progressive than TO or Van.


That is the simplistic stereotype... but things have changed a lot in the past
few decades! Canadians don't like it when foreigners stereotype them, but
they are quick to stereotype each other.
Each of these three cities have their moments; don't forget the first city
in Canada to have legal gay weddings was Toronto, and the city gave a 
collective shrug. Vancouver has lead the way on relaxing drug laws.
I don't think it is as cut and dried as people like to believe. I was in Montreal
about six years ago, and there was a proposal to have a red-light district set up for legalized prostitution. It was in the old Chinatown area; not
highly populated, and you should have seen the massive uproar and how fast
the proposal was squashed. So, there is 'talk', and there is 'action'.


----------



## unoh (Aug 13, 2005)

surely, Amsterdam. 
the most decadent city in Europe


----------



## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

polako said:


> Scary stuff. I would never want to live in a non-white country, especially South Africa or Zimbabwe. The funny thing is that I was looking at a couple of 70's National Geographics and on the pictures whites were walking through the central cities of S. Africa and Zimbabwe as if they were not in danger of any kind. Today most of those whites have moved to white countries or they live in gated communities in the suburbs.



Whites still walk through the central cities of South Africa today. Visit the South African forum here on Skyscrapercity. Most of the post-ers are white, and will react quite negatively if you start bringing up the ridiculous stereotypes of South Africa that you did in the above post.

Can everyone repeat after me: South-Africa-Is-Not-Zimbabawe. 
One more time: South-Africa-Is-Not-Zimbabwe.

Gawd people here are ignorant.


----------



## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

HirakataShi said:


> Whites still walk through the central cities of South Africa today. Visit the South African forum here on Skyscrapercity. Most of the post-ers are white, and will react quite negatively if you start bringing up the ridiculous stereotypes of South Africa that you did in the above post.
> 
> Can everyone repeat after me: South-Africa-Is-Not-Zimbabawe.
> One more time: South-Africa-Is-Not-Zimbabwe.
> ...


Well, not ignorant, more informed than you.


----------



## Maarten (Nov 28, 2004)

.affed said:


> I'm sorry but none of the European cities named (except A'dam) can claim to having one of the biggest most vibrant gay neighbourhoods in the world, such as the Montreal Gay Village. They can't claim to hosting the biggest circuit party in the world, such as the "Black and Blue" in Montreal. None of these cities can claim to having the biggest number of strip-clubs per capita in the world, as is the case in Montreal. None of these cities can claim to having the nightlife that Montreal has, nor can they claim to having such lenient enforcement of alcohol and drug consumption laws, as is the case in Montreal.
> 
> Copenhagen, Stokholm and Oslo might be liberal, but they certainly do no surpass Montreal.



Amsterdam haven't a gay neighbourhood, like most european cities. They live just everywhere in the city. A gay neighbourhood isn't that liberal and vibrant, it's a bit like a getto. They gone live in the neighbourhood because they aren't accepted in the normal streets.


----------



## elsonic (Aug 21, 2003)

_tictac_ said:


> You make it out as if having a huge gay parade/circuit party is anything special. It is not, Copenhagen and any city with dignity has that.
> 
> And don't even bother with that "lenient enforcement of alcohol and drug consumption" bullshit of yours.
> Copenhagen beats the shit out of Montréal in any of those two. Prove me wrong.
> ...


.affed, I'll have to give the point to these european cities, such as Coppenhagen and Amsterdam. they are way ahead oh any north and south american cities in many aspects, like the environment, alternative transportations, well, their urban shapes are more human !! ancient cities are more human (?). they are loaded with pedestrians, trams, bicycles... squats are oftenly legal, you can find red lite districts and drug free zones (not sure it's THE good solution and there are lots oh myths around that)...

Montréal does good in some categories when placed in the american context. exemples : cheap and quality housing, massive use of the feet and the bicycles, with an impressive lane network, it's multicultural, the ratio student/total is the highest of the continent, there are easy oppotunities to organise huge huge techno nights and IT'S LEGAL (an asset in NA), we have an excellent transit system, one of the biggest public offer of free cultural activities in the world, 100% atheist institutions and governement, strong community services, extremely low crime rate, strongest unionized % of workers in NA, bla bla bla

well, in fact, there are too many aspects, it's hard to compare, especialy with Europe... maybe we are better ? our big defect would be our infrastructures, wich are still waaaay too much car-oriented and we are slow to switch to something less smelly.

in NA, one city I think of and wich may be better than Montréal is Portland, especialy because of its much better job in its planning in general and its local democraty. considering the impact of our built environment on our everyday life, I suspect a majority of Portand(ers?) to be happier than most of their North American counterparts.

EDIT no, too bad for us, we don't have free city bicycles or bicycle taxis - what is that ?


----------



## elsonic (Aug 21, 2003)

ok, I see... but is that efficiant, are they really taxis, driven by taxi drivers ?


----------



## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

elsonic said:


> ok, I see... but is that efficiant, are they really taxis, driven by taxi drivers ?


Yes.


----------



## jesarm (Dec 26, 2004)

Amsterdam and San Francisco


----------



## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

polako said:


> Well yeah. Non-whites make up 90.4% of its population.


Yeah, but aren't there better examples of non-white countries? South Africa is after all one of the "most white" non-white countries.

Maybe I misunderstood.


----------



## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

NYC does rely on a number public programs being that it's one of the largest cities in the world.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

_tictac_ said:


> You make it out as if having a huge gay parade/circuit party is anything special. It is not, Copenhagen and any city with dignity has that.
> 
> And don't even bother with that "lenient enforcement of alcohol and drug consumption" bullshit of yours.
> Copenhagen beats the shit out of Montréal in any of those two. Prove me wrong.
> ...


WRONG!

Copenhagen doesn't have a statue underneath which, every Sunday hundreds if not thousands of hippies gather to smoke weed, eat mushrooms, play the drums and dance; the Montreal "tam tams" are a unique event where the city's hippiness becomes evident.

Montreal DOES have bicycle lanes all over the city.
Montreal DOES have fully pedestrian streets like Prince Arthur, Place Jacques Cartier, as well as semi pedestrian streets such as Duluth. During the summer Montreal closes many of its streets for events such as the internationally aclaimed Montreal Jazz Festival, the biggest in the world, or the Francofolies de Montreal, the Grand Prix du Canada, the DiversCite festival (pride fest.), etc, etc.
Montreal DOES have police officers that "can safely work throughout their lives without ever having to use their pistol." As it is the major North American city with the lowest crime rate, followed by its Canadian counterparts.

Montreal IS NOT easily matched.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

Maarten said:


> Amsterdam haven't a gay neighbourhood, like most european cities. They live just everywhere in the city. A gay neighbourhood isn't that liberal and vibrant, it's a bit like a getto. They gone live in the neighbourhood because they aren't accepted in the normal streets.


A gay neighbourhood is necessary in ANY city that claims to be liberal or pluralist. I walk hand-in-hand with my boyfriend all over Montreal, no one says a thing so much as give a second look (besides American tourists). The Montreal Gay Village, as all other gay neighbourhoods in the world, is just a congregation of places, cafes, bars, clubs, restaurants and shops owned and operated by gay people for gay people. It is the expression of our community identity. I see it as an expression of who we are as citizens, as a community and as a city. It is not a ghetto, it is just a place where we can celebrate our diversity and our liberty as individuals and as citizens of of glorious city in one of the best countries in the world.


----------



## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

polako said:


> Well, not ignorant, more informed than you.


Reading stormfront.org every morning doesn't make you more informed.


----------



## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

.affed said:


> WRONG!
> 
> Copenhagen doesn't have a statue underneath which, every Sunday hundreds if not thousands of hippies gather to smoke weed, eat mushrooms, play the drums and dance; the Montreal "tam tams" are a unique event where the city's hippiness becomes evident.
> 
> ...


_"Montreal DOES have bicycle lanes all over the city."_
Sorry, but you're gonna have to back that up with proof (inner city, city, urban area, metro, country roads, everywhere).

Copenhagen is the most bicycle-friendly city in the world.
Please, feel free to post pictures of Montréal's bicycle lanes. I guarantee it does not compare.

No, Copenhagen does not have a statue where hippies gather to smoke weed every sunday.
Instead, Copenhagen has Christiania where people smoke weed every single day.

Copenhagen has lots of festivals and parades. Nothing special about that.
Just recently, the whole inner city was closed down to all traffic for several days. Furthermore, politicians are discussing whether or not the whole inner city should be closed down to all traffic, permanently.


----------



## crazyevildude (Aug 15, 2005)

Amsterdam.


----------



## polako (Apr 7, 2005)

HirakataShi said:


> Reading stormfront.org every morning doesn't make you more informed.


:nono:


----------



## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

_tictac_ said:


> Copenhagen is the most bicycle-friendly city in the world.


Thought it was Amsterdam


----------



## Zaki (Apr 16, 2005)

SHiRO said:


> Amsterdam has 50%+ immigrants so either you didn't go to Amsterdam (as 1 of 14 cities) or you didn't look around enough.
> 
> And Amsterdam is not more liberal than Toronto on account of marijuana only, also consider legalised prostitution, euthanasia laws, etc


Ya but my point was most of that 50% are just immigrants from other european countries. When it comes to immigrants from all over the world, most european cities cannot compare to north american cities. Sure there are some, but not close to the same levels as toronto. And the marijuana was just an example. I never said it is all the represented liberalism.



.affed said:


> Ever heard of Robert Mugabe?


And for this, mugabe doesnt represent the whole non white world, infact he doesnt even represent his country since he cheated in the elections. There are many non white countries that are very tollerent. For example places like India or Malaysia. Sure it is not at the levels of Europe or North America, but it isnt Mugabe. And also some people seem to associate drinking with liberalism, well thats a very european perspective. In many cultures such as mine, drinking is just something people dont do. Its not seen as a social thing, rather it is anti social.


----------



## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

AMS guy said:


> Thought it was Amsterdam


Amsterdam is also extremely bicycle-oriented, it could very well be a tie.
They're both world leaders in that regard anyway.


----------



## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

Bicycles in Copenhagen

























Free city bicycles


----------



## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

DonQui said:


> Amsterdam without a doubt.


I doubt it... hno:
You can buy marihuana in Amsterdam with no problem, but you need to give ALL your personal data to buy a prepaid mobile phone or to make a copy of your house key!

Liberal and progressive cities in the world, in my opinion:
Sydney, Barcelona, San Francisco, Montreal, Paris, London, Cape Town, Oslo, etc.
:yes:


----------



## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

bitxofo said:


> I doubt it... hno:
> You can buy marihuana in Amsterdam with no problem, but you need to give ALL your personal data to buy a prepaid mobile phone or to make a copy of your house key!
> 
> Liberal and progressive cities in the world, in my opinion:
> ...



Hmm. That list certainly is interesting.
Would you mind explaining why you picked those cities?


----------



## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

bitxofo said:


> Liberal and progressive cities in the world, in my opinion:
> Sydney, Barcelona, San Francisco, Montreal, Paris, London, Cape Town, Oslo, etc.
> :yes:


I love these random lists. What did you do, throw a pin at a map or something???


----------



## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

Zaki said:


> Ya but my point was most of that 50% are just immigrants from other european countries. When it comes to immigrants from all over the world, most european cities cannot compare to north american cities. Sure there are some, but not close to the same levels as toronto. And the marijuana was just an example. I never said it is all the represented liberalism.


That is not true.
And let me get this straight...other Europeans in different European countries are not adding to multiculturalism, but they do add to multiculturalism in North America? Yeah right... 
Yet other Americans add to multiculturalism in NA cities too right?
Not to mention Canadians and Americans who get counted as a minority, while they are as Canadian or American as can be and only have a ethnic heritage of some sort.

FYI:



















Surinamers: people from Suriname, itself a very diverse groep which consist of Hindu's, Javanes, Creoles, Chinese, Surinamese Indians, African Surinamese.
Antilianen: people from the Dutch Antilles, also a diverse group as Arubans are of a different ethnic make up from Curacao people and the islands above the wind are different from the islands below the wind.
Turken: Turks, this includes Kurds from Turkey
Marokkanen: Moroccans, both Arabs and Berbers
Zuid Europeanen: people from Southern Europe; Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece
niet geindustrialiseerde landen: other non industrialized nations, excluding Dutch Indonesian which are classified as Dutch in this case I think (sometimes classified as western just like Japanese...strange but true)
geindustrialiseerde landen: rest of western Europe, Australia, Japan, US and Canada
Nederlanders: Dutch

So as you can see, the amount of westerners is under 10% and it includes Japanese, Americans, Australians and Canadians.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

_tictac_ said:


> _"Montreal DOES have bicycle lanes all over the city."_
> Sorry, but you're gonna have to back that up with proof (inner city, city, urban area, metro, country roads, everywhere).
> 
> Copenhagen is the most bicycle-friendly city in the world.
> Please, feel free to post pictures of Montréal's bicycle lanes. I guarantee it does not compare.











Part of Metropolitan Montreal

Bicycle lanes EVERYWHERE

A more comprehensive map from the City of Montreal
http://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/divers/pdf/voiescyclable2004.pdf

Montreal even has a bridge of some 3 KM across one of the largest rivers in North America, the mighty 
Saint Lawrence, EXCLUSSIVELY reserved for bicycles; the Estacade du Pont Champlain.




























Montreal is quite possibly the most bike-friendly city in the Western Hemisphere. 
Copenhagen's "ciclability" is shit compared to Amsterdam, who is queen in this category.



> No, Copenhagen does not have a statue where hippies gather to smoke weed every sunday.
> Instead, Copenhagen has Christiania where people smoke weed every single day.


I don't think you understand the dimension of what is a veritable free WEEKLY music festival and a place of debauchery under the sun, all under the gaze of Sir George-Etienne Catier.

The Montreal Tam Tams:



























































































Just an example...

Another?

The PikNicElectronik; another Sunday activity Montrealers enagage in every week. 
A perfectly legal rave party under the sun, underneath a magnificent piece of art, overlooking a glorious city. It's magic, not to mention fucking fun as hell.







































> Copenhagen has lots of festivals and parades. Nothing special about that.
> Just recently, the whole inner city was closed down to all traffic for several days. Furthermore, politicians are discussing whether or not the whole inner city should be closed down to all traffic, permanently.


Try havinng some of the main thoroughfares (Ste-Catherine, Maisonneuve, Bleury, St-Denis, St-Urbain, etc) in the city closed for WEEKS. 
During July and August the heart of Montral's arts scene, the Place-des-Arts is closed for festivals such as the 
"Montreal International Jazz Festival," "The Festival Juste pour Rire," the "Francofolies de Montreal," etc.

All these are FREE events everyone can go to. They happen in the heart of the city and EVERYONE is welcome, for the Francos and the Jazz Fest thereare half a dozen stages scattered across the festival grounds. Concerts take place from the early afternoon until the morning. We the taxpayers gladly pay for it. 









Place-des-Arts



























































































Juste pour rire























































Francofolies de Montreal




























Then there are the "Festival Nuits d'Afrique," "DiversCite," "Frenzzy sur la Main," "Fete Nationale du Quebec," "Canada Day," 
"International Fireworks Competition," the free festivities and cultural activities in the summer are impossible to count. 
Montreal is officially the "Ville des festivales."

I leave you with images of one of my favourite neighbourhoods in Montreal, the Plateau, home to artists and bohemians, 
but so are other Montreal neighbourhoods such as the Mile-End, Outremont, the Village, Littel Italy, etc. Montreal is by nature a bohemian city.






















































































































The fun does not end with the summer... the city lives on--even if in -40C temperatures.


----------



## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

bitxofo said:


> I doubt it... hno:
> You can buy marihuana in Amsterdam with no problem, but you need to give ALL your personal data to buy a prepaid mobile phone or to make a copy of your house key!
> 
> Liberal and progressive cities in the world, in my opinion:
> ...


Oh please...a company asks for ID when you buy a phone. What does that have to do with anything.
Copy of your housekey? Where do you come up with such nonsense?

Amsterdam is the most liberal city in the world and there is not much anyone can say to make anything other credible.

And it isn't even about drugs because there are many other issues which prove Amsterdam's (and the Netherlands) liberalism.

Next to the NL, I'm from Barcelona too and it is not as liberal as Amsterdam.


----------



## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

@ affed...no offence but do you really think those things are _that_ special?
Have you ever been to Europe, because that's all pretty common. (I know you have , cause I know exactely who you are...).
Sure Montreal is a very liberal city, I might even have a edge over Copenhagen on some issues and reverse on others, but it seems to me that you are just trying to hard.
I don't think that anyone is impressed by those pics, although Montreal looks like a cool place.


----------



## Khanabadosh (Nov 16, 2004)

bitxofo said:


> I doubt it... hno:
> You can buy marihuana in Amsterdam with no problem, but you need to give ALL your personal data to buy a prepaid mobile phone or to make a copy of your house key!
> 
> Liberal and progressive cities in the world, in my opinion:
> ...


Well I am sure you need not prove your Identity or give personal data to buy a prepaid mobile or make a copy of house key in Netherlands. While on the other hand I have seen it is quite common for police to ask for identity in Barcelona and Madrid from foreigners especially non european people, which is very rare in Netherlands.


----------



## Maarten (Nov 28, 2004)

.affed said:


> A gay neighbourhood is necessary in ANY city that claims to be liberal or pluralist. I walk hand-in-hand with my boyfriend all over Montreal, no one says a thing so much as give a second look (besides American tourists). The Montreal Gay Village, as all other gay neighbourhoods in the world, is just a congregation of places, cafes, bars, clubs, restaurants and shops owned and operated by gay people for gay people. It is the expression of our community identity. I see it as an expression of who we are as citizens, as a community and as a city. It is not a ghetto, it is just a place where we can celebrate our diversity and our liberty as individuals and as citizens of of glorious city in one of the best countries in the world.


Amsterdam haven't a gay neighbourhood, so it's not a liberal city for gays? :bash:


----------



## Khanabadosh (Nov 16, 2004)

Maarten said:


> Amsterdam haven't a gay neighbourhood, so it's not a liberal city for gays? :bash:


 :rofl:


----------



## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

.affed said:


> Part of Metropolitan Montreal
> 
> Bicycle lanes EVERYWHERE
> 
> ...



Sorry, but your map doesn't impress me.
After having seen the map of Montréal, I can honestly say it does not compare to neither Amsterdam or Copenhagen. I would even say it looks weak.

Furthermore, I wouldn't say the bicycle system in Copenhagen is shit compared to Amsterdam, but coming from you, I am not surprised.
In fact, the two systems are very much alike.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

^^

Anyway, cicle-friendliness is only one sub-criterion for measuring a city's progressive state. Montréal does well, as does Copenhague; the realities of both cities are different. The urbanisation of both cities has taken place under completely different circumstances. Though Montréal is one of the most ancient cities in the Western Hemisphere, it is by no stretch of imagination as old as European cities, such as Copenhague and Amsterdam. These cities had to adapt to the motorized vehicle, whereas North and South American cities built their cities with the car in mind. Today, we are moving (at least in Canada) to lower dependence in cars by heavily increasing density in our downtown cores and investing in public transportation, bicycle routes, etc. Montréal, Vancouver and Toronto are fine exaples of this.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

SHiRO said:


> @ affed...no offence but do you really think those things are _that_ special?
> Have you ever been to Europe, because that's all pretty common. (I know you have , cause I know exactely who you are...).
> Sure Montreal is a very liberal city, I might even have a edge over Copenhagen on some issues and reverse on others, but it seems to me that you are just trying to hard.
> I don't think that anyone is impressed by those pics, although Montreal looks like a cool place.


I'm not trying to impress anyone, I'm demonstrating how Montréal is such a fantastic place, a capital of liberalism, tolerance and progressive ideas.

I AM from Europe, I have been to EVERY country in Western Europe and I DO NOT think these things are pretty common. They happen in other places, but by no means do they happen in the same proportions as they do in Montréal.

People speak of San Francisco, Amsterdam and Copenhague, which to the exception of SF I think are also capitals in progressiveness, but many people seem to neglect Canadian cities, and Montréal in particular. It's time people discovered this magnificent city.


----------



## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

As for the bikes, here some pics of the 4 levels bicycle parking at Central Station in Amsterdam.
I think that most of the Benelux and Scandinavian cities are bicycle friendly, but still wonder what that has to do with liberalism 





















.affed said:


> A gay neighbourhood is necessary in ANY city that claims to be liberal or pluralist


This is very true, however, you didn't understand what Maarten wanted to say.
There is a difference between a city that has a gay neighbourhood, and a city that IS gay as whole.

But on the other hand, I doubt if gays would dare to walk hand in hand in Amsterdam-Bijlmer or Bos & Lommer disctricts. It's all a bit relative.




bitxofo said:


> You can buy marihuana in Amsterdam with no problem, but you need to give ALL your personal data to buy a prepaid mobile phone or to make a copy of your house key!


This is not true. I bought 3 times a prepaid phone in different shops and they never asked me any documents. You need to show your ID and give your address (that's not ALL your personal data) only if you get a free phone that is registered at a company. You pay them a certain amount per month and you can call for free.

About the keys. Untill now they never asked me to show my ID when I had to make a copy of my house key. I've done it something like 5 times at two shops.
But maybe it happens ocasionally. Never heard of this though.


----------



## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

AMS guy said:


> This is very true, however, you didn't understand what Maarten wanted to say.
> There is a difference between a city that has a gay neighbourhood, and a city that IS gay as whole.
> 
> But on the other hand, I doubt if gays would dare to walk hand in hand in Amsterdam-Bijlmer or Bos & Lommer disctricts. It's all a bit relative.


Montréal has a gay neighbourhood AND IS gay as a whole.

Of course there are districts in every city, like Amsterdam-Bijlmer or Bos & Lommer. In Montreal public displays would not be so advisable in, for instance Montréal Nord or perhaps Pointe-Saint-Charles, but they are, like in Amsterdam, exceptions to the rule.


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

.affed said:


> People speak of San Francisco, Amsterdam and Copenhague, which to the exception of SF I think are also capitals in progressiveness, but many people seem to neglect Canadian cities, and Montréal in particular. It's time people discovered this magnificent city.


I do agree that Europeans sometimes seem to think that Europe is the centre of Universe and their cities are the best. But so are Americans and Canadians sometimes.

The good advice to all of those people is - get your arse out of your neighbourhood and visit the world 

BTW Personally I find that Barcelona, Madrid, Hamburg and Brussels are underrated in category of liberalism.


----------



## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

_tictac_ said:


> Montréal does not have a 34 yr old town settlement (hippies) in its city where you can buy drugs, now does it? That's what I thought.


HAHAHAHA!!! Come to Montreal and you will see! :lol:


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

Montreal, Copenhague, Amsterdam, San Francisco and many most. They are all very liberal cities, no one is a winner but we can all be proud to live in this kind of cities! Each of these cities have more strong side than bad side...


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

AMS guy said:


> I do agree that Europeans sometimes seem to think that Europe is the centre of Universe and their cities are the best. But so are Americans and Canadians sometimes.
> 
> The good advice to all of those people is - get your arse out of your neighbourhood and visit the world
> 
> BTW Personally I find that Barcelona, Madrid, Hamburg and Brussels are underrated in category of liberalism.


I don't think there is a transatlantic rift on the matter.  I'm European but have been in Canada for four years, and I think both places are amazing and have amazing cities where people can be anything they want. The problem is some Europeans fail to recognize Canada's progressive nature for fear of being dethroned from the place of "the most liberal in the world."

Anyway, I agree with people having to travel more, only then will they be able to judge.


----------



## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

.affed said:


> Anyway, I agree with people having to travel more, only then will they be able to judge.


That's true. And then, most of them will also get well-balanced in their opinion, I think 

I've been working for airlines, seen a lot around the world and I really don't think, there exist something like the best, the most or whatsoever, city on this planet.


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## SpatulaCity (Mar 17, 2004)

some Toronto contribution to this thread...

although being a liberal and progressive city has something to do with the issues most of you are focusing on, they really should just be an added bonus. Toronto does very well with those aspects but it excels at providing people (immigrants) with a solid foundation for building a better life. The city's policies on immigration, which have been in place for many years, are the definition of forward-thinking and progressive. In my mind, this implies that Toronto does a lot of things right in general. Actually, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Toronto is the world-leader in this respect (it's had plenty of practice!) If it isn't, the city that does immigration better must be a utopia. Montreal does well in that respect also (all Canadian cities do) but by far not as well as Toronto. Montreal's language laws are also a problem which are very _re_gressive by nature.

Also, Toronto has very liberal policies on gay issues (the first city in NA to allow legally-recognized gay marriage). The Toronto Pride Parade is also among the largest in the world along with Sydney and NYC (and SF, I assume).

About bike lanes... I'm really surprised about the crappy looking network in Montreal. I was under the impression that their lane system was much better. The amount of downtown lanes in particular look very, very sparse. 


Anyway, here are some fun pictures of Toronto... 

This is Kensington Market (photos by KGB). Easily the most "liberal" neighbourhood in Canada and possibly NA.
































































































































Here are some pics from the Toronto Pride Parade.



































































By the way, I'm not implying that Toronto is the most liberal and progressive city in the world. However, it does an excellent job on the things that matter (and the extra bits as well).


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## elsonic (Aug 21, 2003)

what immigration policies are you talking about ? municipal, provincial ? do you have any exemples ? I thaught only the federal governement was involved in immigration in Ontario.

about the language laws' situation in Montréal, most consider it as being extremely positive for the global (and continental) cultural diversity. mather of scale and context.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

.affed said:


> A more comprehensive map from the City of Montreal


That ain't impressive at all. 

Interactive bicycle map for my own city (click to zoom):
http://www.malmo.se/html/www/malmokarta/cykel/lev1/index.html

"Bicycle barometers" which counts the amount of cyclists passing a certain point by day.









More info:









The *main* bicycle routes. The network is of course even more detailed than this. Total length will be 520 km or 323 miles (which is extreme for a city of Malmö's size).









Malmö is the twin city of Copenhagen (which is problaby even more bicycle friendly).

Montréal has nothing in this department... It seems to be (very) liberal by North American standards, but compared to the cities mentioned (AMS, CPH etc.), it simply is way behind. I'm sure it is a great, friendly and spectacular city though. I would love to visit someday.


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

What big European city would you consider to be not liberal?


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## addisonwesley (Jun 19, 2005)

From the City of Toronto's official website (don't mind the phone numbers):

"Considering that Toronto is one of the most diverse cities in the world, with a population of 2.5 million from 169 countries, it is only fitting that our motto is reflective of this - "Diversity Our Strength." <-- that is their actual motto.

"Access Toronto offers information in more than 140 languages, using interpreters provided through Language Line Services. If you have difficulty speaking English, or know someone who does, call Access Toronto at 416-338-0338 for assistance in whichever language you speak. If you are a TTY user, call us at 416-338-0889."


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## RobinBad (Aug 18, 2005)

Pyongyang/North Korea


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## crawford (Dec 9, 2003)

HirakataShi said:


> What big European city would you consider to be not liberal?


Munich and Vienna for starters. Many Eastern European cities aren't particularly liberal. Southern Italy isn't liberal.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

SpatulaCity said:


> The Toronto Pride Parade is also among the largest in the world along with Sydney and NYC (and SF, I assume).
> 
> About bike lanes... I'm really surprised about the crappy looking network in Montreal. I was under the impression that their lane system was much better. The amount of downtown lanes in particular look very, very sparse.


The Toronto pride celebrations are the largest in the world, followed closely by Montreal, which during the first week of August hosts the second largest pride festival in the world.

About the bike lanes... Montreal is WAAAAAAY ahead of Toronto, so don't even try. Montreal is planning on doubling the network in the next few years anyway...


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

staff said:


> Montréal has nothing in this department... It seems to be (very) liberal by North American standards, but compared to the cities mentioned (AMS, CPH etc.), it simply is way behind. I'm sure it is a great, friendly and spectacular city though. I would love to visit someday.


Haha... liberal by North American standards?

Are you implying that Malmo is more liberal than Montreal? Montreal is a world city, something which, in all honesty, Scandinavian cities can't really claim to be; not even Copenhague. You really have no idea what you're talking about. I've been to Copenhague, Stockholm, Oslo, Helsinki, etc... I've seen them all, but I now live in Montreal, and though they are all extremely liberal, I must say Montreal tops the list. 

Have YOU even been to Canada to be able to judge anything at all? :|

Sorry about the rant, but Scandinavians are starting to piss me off a little, with the "we're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more liberal than Montreal" bullshit, which is essentially.... well, bullshit.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

crawford said:


> Vienna


Very wrong. Vienna is a very cool city with a huge arts community, an amazing nightlife, a vibrant gay community and all-in-all a very progressive population.


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

This wouldn't be possible in Amsterdam.








During the gay pride, walking naked (showing your genitals) is forbidden.
I've seen completely naked people in the streets of Berlin, though.




.affed said:


> Very wrong. Vienna is a very cool city with a huge arts community, an amazing nightlife, a vibrant gay community and all-in-all a very progressive population.


I agree, Vienna isn't that conservative as people might think. The same for Munich.


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## Dino Domingo (Jan 5, 2005)

Where the hell is Malmo???


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## Renkinjutsushi (Dec 4, 2004)

Dino Domingo said:


> Where the hell is Malmo???


Malmö is located in the far south, it is connected to København (Copenhagen) to the west by the Oresund Bridge.


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

.affed said:


> Haha... liberal by North American standards?
> 
> Are you implying that Malmo is more liberal than Montreal? Montreal is a world city, something which, in all honesty, Scandinavian cities can't really claim to be; not even Copenhague. You really have no idea what you're talking about. I've been to Copenhague, Stockholm, Oslo, Helsinki, etc... I've seen them all, but I now live in Montreal, and though they are all extremely liberal, I must say Montreal tops the list.
> 
> ...



Yes, staff has been to Canada. Just recently.
Why are you so upset anyway? He posted a map of Malmö's bicycle lanes and expressed his opinion, exactly like you are.

And if I remember correctly, you're the one constantly trying to diss Copenhagen, while in fact, it is one of the most liberal cities in the world.
Should I be pissed off about that? Probably so, but I am not.

You're entitled to your own opinion (as am I), just try and keep it clean.
Having said that, I think we can both agree on Montréal, Amsterdam and Copenhagen being among the most liberal cities in the world.

Gee....


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

_tictac_ said:


> Then why did you post it? :lol:
> Regarding my sources, check The Economist.


Cause I didn't know before; idiot.
I just checked economist website and I found nothing. Please provide real source, not bullshit.


Also, from The Economist;


Danish immigration laws
Jul 8th 2004 
From The Economist print edition


LAST week marked the second anniversary of what the Danish government boasts are the European Union's strictest immigration laws. But Christina Reves, a 23-year-old estate agent, was not celebrating. For the laws have driven Ms Reves and many other Danes with spouses from non-EU countries into involuntary exile in Sweden.… 

Denmark... Liberal... humm don't think.


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

.affed said:


> Copenhagen, though very liberal is not nearly as liberal as cities like Amsterdam, Montreal or Toronto... everyone, but Scandinavians seem to realise that.


I think that Copenhagen and Amsterdam are equal as for liberalism. I lived in CPH half year and mentality of the people there, the way of living, tolerance etc. is on the same level like in Amsterdam.

I think the reason why the cities like Copenhagen, Stockholm or Oslo are considered less liberal to Amsterdam is, that these cities are rather small in size and not often mentioned in media. They aren't very popular globally and the knowledge about them is poor.

Montreal is certainly more cosmopolitan than Copenhagen, but it doesn't mean that Copenhagen is less liberal.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

I think this isn't worth discussing anymore, since the thread has turned into some sort of Canada vs. Denmark battle (Hans Island? ). 

.affed,

I don't know why you're bashing Copenhagen. I'm sure you'd like it if you went there. I'm sure I'd love Montréal as well. No need for insults here.

It is said to be the most liberal city in the world along with Amsterdam. I can't back that up with more facts than written in this thread (Christiania, drug liberal, bicycle friendly, 24/7 nightlife, drinking age, red light district, pioneer in gay marriage issues etc.). I don't know that else you need as proof.

Did you give me any proof (except for the people-in-the-park pics and that poor bicycle route map)?

I know Toronto, and I've heard a lot of good things about Montréal, but you really need to have some perspective on things. Toronto is not even near Amsterdam/Copenhagen in these matters. You even had to go to "special" stores to buy beer/liqour. I don't know if it's the same with Mtl though.

Please provide me with some facts similar to what I wrote earlier in this post. So far I've just read "Montréal is more liberal than this/that". 


PhilippeMtl,

What is your problem? Why call people idiots when acting as one yourself? 

I've also seen lists where Copenhagen always is among the top (most expensive in the world, highest living standards, best cities to live in, the happiest people in the world etc.). I don't have any link though, _tictac_ knows this better than I do.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

AMS guy said:


> I think that Copenhagen and Amsterdam are equal as for liberalism. I lived in CPH half year and mentality of the people there, the way of living, tolerance etc. is on the same level like in Amsterdam.


I would say Amsterdam is somewhat ahead, but I agree - the atmosphere is kind of the same.



> I think the reason why the cities like Copenhagen, Stockholm or Oslo are considered less liberal to Amsterdam is, that these cities are rather small in size and not often mentioned in media.


Well, Amsterdam and Copenhagen are about the same size, aren't they? Amsterdam has 2,5 mil (I think?) and Copenhagen 2 mil (3,6 mil with Malmö). Not a *very* big difference.  However, AMS is of course part of the deltametropolis, but that's stretching it a little I guess.. Stockholm is also pretty well known, but I agree on Oslo, since it is smaller...

Amsterdam gets the most attention though, no doubt about that!



> Montreal is certainly more cosmopolitan than Copenhagen, but it doesn't mean that Copenhagen is less liberal.


Agreed.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Found some things at City Mayors (www.citymayors.com):

World's Most Expensive Cities.
Copenhagen ranks 5th, Montréal ranks 37. I don't know what this has to do with liberalism though. But I guess it gives a hint of the quality of life (which Copenhagen always ranks high in).

World's richest cities. CPH: 7, MTL: 25.

Cities with highest quality of life. CPH: 8, MTL: 22.


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

PhilippeMtl said:


> Cause I didn't know before; idiot.
> I just checked economist website and I found nothing. Please provide real source, not bullshit.
> 
> 
> ...


What was that for? Calling me an idiot?
Grow up and respect the opinion of others. :|

_"Cause I didn't know before"_
If you didn't know, perhaps you should look into things before opening your mouth?

_"I just checked economist website and I found nothing. Please provide real source, not bullshit."_
Perhaps you should take a closer look? According to Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), Copenhagen is a better city to live in than Montréal.

Anyway, I am done with this.
I am sick and tired of people bashing other cities for no apparent reason(s). :sleepy:


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

I've never been to amsterdam (hopefully in the next couple of years), but what i've heard of it over the years, it SEEMs to be the most liberal and progressive. I wouldn't put any N.A. city in this list, but I guess its different based upon how people define liberal and progressive. N.A. is still very conservative, with issues like prostitution which are illegal in most cities (obvious LV its not) are tollerated if out of sight and mind (kinda hypocritical). But then again, using this example, was it progressive back in the day whey they outlawed prostitution, just like it is progressive now to legalize it again as society deems it acceptable under certian conditions? A more liberal society that allows drinking on the street and smoking indoors, is it really more liberal than a conservative counterpart that doesn't allow, protecting other people's liberty.

On a N.A. prospective, Calif. seems to be the most progressive. MTL's L&P seems to be deflated somewhat thanks to years of rule by the Bloc. Queb. Issues ranging from Language laws to its say in Immigration seems to hamper, atleast its image.


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

_tictac_ said:


> Perhaps you should take a closer look? According to Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU), Copenhagen is a better city to live in than Montréal.
> 
> Anyway, I am done with this.
> I am sick and tired of people bashing other cities for no apparent reason(s). :sleepy:


Hé la!

I am not bashing Copenhagen, I just tell you than in my own, it's not worst but it's not better than Montreal. It's normal to be patriot... so nobody can win...
And sorry to called you idiot for idiot reason...


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

I noticed people have mentioned Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm, but not Helsinki. is Helsinki not a "liberal city"? (I use quotations because the definition of liberalism on this board seems to be in dispute) Is Finland is general less "liberal" than other Nordic countries?


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

Roch5220 said:


> But then again, using this example, was it progressive back in the day whey they outlawed prostitution, just like it is progressive now to legalize it again as society deems it acceptable under certian conditions? A more liberal society that allows drinking on the street and smoking indoors, is it really more liberal than a conservative counterpart that doesn't allow, protecting other people's liberty.


I don't consider prostitution, euthanasia, or public intoxication to be "liberal" or "progressive" in any way. Prostitution is the exploitation of women. Few women working the streets of Toronto are there because they want to be. Many have substance abuse problems, have been smuggled into the country illegally from third world countries, and are being forced by pimps to prostitute themselves. Even when this is not the case, prostitution is not about sex, it is about exploitation and degradation. The modern day equivalent of slavery. Euthanasia - that's a person's life you're taking. If a person committs suicide, that's one thing. Euthanasia involves a second party assisting in the taking of a person's life though. No one has this right. 
Public intoxication. You can see drunken people causing all kinds of public mayhem, and committing crimes. The government has a responsibility to protect people from wild hooligans.


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## SpatulaCity (Mar 17, 2004)

^ I agree with you about prostitution but not all forms of it. Escorts are different from street prostitutes, for example. About euthanasia, the point is that the dieing person is making the descision, not the person assisting. If somebody wants to die, I believe they should have that right. And lastly about "wild hooligans" in the street... well, how you've described it is very funny and slanted. Have you been watching Fox news or something? There is nothing wrong with public intoxation unless people _are_ of course abusing others or property but that's definetly not the case automatically.

But ultimately I agree that some of the things people are focusing on here are somewhat strange definitions of "liberal".


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## Dino Domingo (Jan 5, 2005)

mongozx said:


> another montreal vs toronto feud??? Canada vs Europe??? Canada vs World???
> 
> ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz
> 
> San Francisco and Amsterdam stick out in my mind . . . liberal-wise. As far as most progressive city I'd have to go with. . .hmmmmmm. Tokyo? Shanghai? Hong Kong? Most of the large Asian cities since they're building and expanding like crazy.



Hey boy genius, when they say "progressive" let me fill you in on a li'l some'in. They're NOT talking about development, they're talkin' about being 'forward-minded' as in open-minded, as in accepting of new and different. 

Asian cities...building...expansion... sheesh!


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## Bo Peep (Sep 25, 2005)

staff said:


> I think this isn't worth discussing anymore, since the thread has turned into some sort of Canada vs. Denmark battle (Hans Island? ).
> 
> .affed,
> 
> ...


Contrary to what you will hear, liquor licensing laws are nearly identical in
most of Canada. For example, in Toronto and Montreal, ALL spirits like vodka,
and gin must be purchased for take out at government liquor stores, seven days a week. Up until a decade ago, both Quebec and Ontario liquour stores closed on Sundays. Ontario opened them up first for Sunday sales, followed
by Quebec less than a year later. As irritating as it
is, the stores in Toronto have at least re-invented themselves in the last
decade, and are much nicer than the older style ones in Montreal. Beer and
undrinkable plonk are sold in Montreal corner stores til 11pm. Beer in Toronto
is sold til 10 or 11pm in beer stores, and each store carries literally hundreds
of varieties of beer. BUT, there are not as many outlets for it as corner stores
in Montreal, which carry only about ten or fifteen types of beer. Ontario wine is sold in private shops in Toronto. Alberta is the only province to have a SEMI-privatized liquor distribution system for take out sales.. private retail shops must buy all their liquor from the Government of Alberta, however... so it is not truly privatized.
NO liquor,beer or wine of any type can be sold in either city for consumption outside the premises after 11pm. Montreal bars close at 3 am, Toronto bars at 2am(except by special licence during events like the Film Festival, or Pride, when the closing hour can be 4am). The
latest closing hour in Canada is in Vancouver, at 4am. Drinking on the 
street is NOT permitted in ANY Canadian city (including Montreal), except for special permits during events like Pride Day, etc.
So, in other words, the liquor laws in these Canadian cities are not liberal
as in, say the old New Orleans where you could drink 24 hours a day on the
streets or in bars. Now THAT is liberal! Smoking has been outlawed in all
bars in Toronto, and will be outlawed in all bars in Montreal next Spring.
As for the relative "liberalism" of Montreal vs. Toronto or Vancouver, it is
certainly debatable in the 21st century. All three cities are relatively
quite liberal and progressive, and I fail to notice much of a difference, quite
frankly, in any of them. I have to say that I think it is a bit of a myth
for Montrealers to aggrandize the difference. In 1950 the differences were
HUGE, but not so much today. Sorry if that deflates anyone's ego, but 
that has been my experience of living in Canada.


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## Eric Offereins (Jan 1, 2004)

staff said:


> I would say Amsterdam is somewhat ahead, but I agree - the atmosphere is kind of the same.
> 
> 
> Well, Amsterdam and Copenhagen are about the same size, aren't they? Amsterdam has 2,5 mil (I think?) and Copenhagen 2 mil (3,6 mil with Malmö). Not a *very* big difference.  However, AMS is of course part of the deltametropolis, but that's stretching it a little I guess.. Stockholm is also pretty well known, but I agree on Oslo, since it is smaller...
> ...


Amsterdam has app. 700.000 inhabitants, The Randstad area, which includes The Hague
and Rotterdam, has over 5 M inhabitants. Size does not matter to me for being liberal.
It is all about freedom and respect for each other.


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

Amsterdam
city proper: 740,000
urban area: 1.2 million
metro area: 2.5 million

"Randstad": 6.5 million
Deltametropolis: 8 million

Randstad is an old concept, Deltametropolis 8 million is comparable to a American CSA metro area.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

You certainly know your numbers, SHiRO.


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## SHiRO (Feb 7, 2003)

Well, there's a lot of confusion concerning European cities population figures.
It leads to people thinking Vancouver is bigger than Amsterdam and such.
Even European themselves are often clueless about the true comparable pop. figures.




/ot


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Well, I've read through all the arguments and have to say I would rank Amsterdam
and Copenhagen first, and then followed by a Canadian city. Either Montreal or 
Toronto, for as has been already said they are pretty close in day to day life. I work
in a business that deals with a lot of international travellers, and very often (especially
the Americans) they will comment on how well all the different groups (racial, gays, etc..) get along living here in Toronto. By and large it is very smooth. And, especially 
after the passing of the same sex marriage bill, more and more one see's same sex
couples holding hands far outside of the Church/Wellesley area. This is probably happening in Montreal too. Seeing as the original question included treatment of the disabled, Canadian cities score high with not only building codes, but special transport and access to regular mass transit for wheelchairs. I have no idea what this is like in
Amsterdam or Copenhagen, but I am sure they are sensitive to the issue too. 
One other factor at the beginning was the size of the arts scene, and again I am 
not sure about Amsterdam and Copenhagen, but in Canada Toronto leads that one,
not only as the third largest English speaking centre in the world for live theatre, but
with the incredible renaissance in renovations and expansions of local museums and
galleries ( Royal Ontario Museum, Art Gallery of Ontario, Ceramic Museum, etc..).
Also with the building of the first real Opera House in Canada for the Canadian Opera 
Company (not some of the older theatres euphemistically called "Opera House"), and the brand new centre being built for the National Ballet of Canada school. Exciting times here for the arts. Also the world premiere of the live theatre "Lord of the Rings"is opening here in TO in the Spring. As for nightlife, I think Montreal still holds the edge in Canada, as drinking is more of a part of that culture than here. But still, I think Amsterdam and Copenhagen take the prize for that, internationally.
As for bicycle paths, I don't have a clue. I live downtown, don't have a car, and walk
everywhere or take the subway.
And after those cities I'd list New York City.


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## Sinjin P. (Jul 17, 2005)

could it be CEBU?


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

staff said:


> .affed,
> 
> I don't know why you're bashing Copenhagen. I'm sure you'd like it if you went there. I'm sure I'd love Montréal as well. No need for insults here.


I'm not bashing it at all. I've been there and I LOVE it... all I'm saying is that it's definitely not more liberal than MTL. Perhaps they're on the same level, but by no means is it more liberal.



> It is said to be the most liberal city in the world along with Amsterdam. I can't back that up with more facts than written in this thread (Christiania, drug liberal, bicycle friendly, 24/7 nightlife, drinking age, red light district, pioneer in gay marriage issues etc.). I don't know that else you need as proof.


Montreal has those and more, such as ACTUAL same-sex marriages, a potential gay Provincial Premier, the second largest gay pride celebrations in the world, the world's largest circuit party, etc, etc.



> Did you give me any proof (except for the people-in-the-park pics and that poor bicycle route map)?


THe only proof you've given is three pics of bicycles! Anyway, prooving this is quite impossible because what we've discussing for a while now is extremely subjective... There is no empirical data that could proove what city is more liberal.



> I know Toronto, and I've heard a lot of good things about Montréal, but you really need to have some perspective on things. Toronto is not even near Amsterdam/Copenhagen in these matters. You even had to go to "special" stores to buy beer/liqour. I don't know if it's the same with Mtl though.


You're the one who needs perspective, since you haven't even been to Canada! TO and MTL are on the same level, if not ahead of Copenhague... period. 

In Ontario you buy alcohol at a liquor store. It's not a "special" store... it's just a liquor store. In Quebec you can buy liquor everywhere.



> Please provide me with some facts similar to what I wrote earlier in this post. So far I've just read "Montréal is more liberal than this/that".


What facts?!?!?! You're totally neurotic...

:rofl:


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

.affed, sorry to contradict you but liquor ( as opposed to beer and wine) is sold
only at the SAQ (government run) in Quebec, and the LCBO in Ontario. These
organizations are very similar. I think this was covered in a previous post 
This is a weird and strange thing about Canada and I hope it gets eliminated some day.
original quote: In Ontario you buy alcohol at a liquor store. It's not a "special" store... it's just a liquor store. In Quebec you can buy liquor everywhere.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

.affed said:


> THe only proof you've given is three pics of bicycles! Anyway, prooving this is quite impossible because what we've discussing for a while now is extremely subjective... There is no empirical data that could proove what city is more liberal.


"Christiania, drug liberal, bicycle friendly, 24/7 nightlife, drinking age, red light district, pioneer in gay marriage issues". These are the proof I stated. They are facts, care to prove it otherwise? You only mentioned gay-related liberal issues, and I can image Montréal may be more liberal for gay people, but when it comes to the other things, it is still behind. If you don't care to prove Montréal is more liberal than AMS or CPH (which are on approx the same level, as a Amsterdam forumer wrote a couple of posts back), I won't change my opinion.

And yes, I've been to Canada - as late as this summer actually.



> In Ontario you buy alcohol at a liquor store. It's not a "special" store... it's just a liquor store. In Quebec you can buy liquor everywhere.


The stores were special since the open/close hours were pretty bad, plus they were pretty sparsely located. It was not like you ran down to the 7/11 on your corner and bought a six pack.



> What facts?!?!?! You're totally neurotic...


Here we go again with the insults. Are you unable to haev a normal discussion? I'm not bashing Montréal, its citizens in general, or you in particular...


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

"The stores were special since the open/close hours were pretty bad, plus they were pretty sparsely located. It was not like you ran down to the 7/11 on your corner and bought a six pack"
It is true for hard liquor sales, but in Montreal you can run down to the 7/11 and
get a six pack, so .affed is correct on that point!
Seems a lot of emphasis on booze here


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Taller said:


> It is true for hard liquor sales, but in Montreal you can run down to the 7/11 and
> get a six pack, so .affed is correct on that point!


Yes, I was just referring to what I experienced in Toronto, which I visited recently.

You're right, booze ain't everything! But so isn't gay issues... It's a mix of all things that make a city liberal, and that's the European counterparts' strength.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

staff said:


> "Christiania, drug liberal, bicycle friendly, 24/7 nightlife, drinking age, red light district, pioneer in gay marriage issues". These are the proof I stated. They are facts, care to prove it otherwise? You only mentioned gay-related liberal issues, and I can image Montréal may be more liberal for gay people, but when it comes to the other things, it is still behind. If you don't care to prove Montréal is more liberal than AMS or CPH (which are on approx the same level, as a Amsterdam forumer wrote a couple of posts back), I won't change my opinion.
> 
> And yes, I've been to Canada - as late as this summer actually.
> 
> ...


The same "facts" you stated as "proof" are my "proof."

Almost legalized marihuana, best transit in NA, most strip-bars per capita in the world, gay mecca, soon-to-be legal euthanasia, leniency on prostitution, leniency on drugs, unbelievably vibrant nightlife, cultural centre, etc, etc... it's all Montreal.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"This is a weird and strange thing about Canada and I hope it gets eliminated some day."


I much prefer the way booze is retailed in Ontario....if the LCBO was illiminated and every variety store sold it, i might have more places to buy it, but there would be nothing I wanted to buy...you know they would only stock 5 shitty beers (Blue, Canadian, or some similar shite).

I like to spend serious time at the Summerhill LCBO..it's like a booze theme park.

Not only is the LCBO the largest buyer of liquor/wine in the world (which gives them amazing purchasing power), all the profit they make subsidizes our taxes. They are also a lot more responsible about selling it than a shifty variety store owner (if they sell single cigs to minors, you know they'll also be selling booze to minors as well).






KGB

.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

.affed said:


> Almost legalized marihuana,


CPH: Legalized marihuana in Christiania.



> best transit in NA


Among the best mass transit in the world.



> most strip-bars per capita in the world


I thought it was Portland, Oregon. Montréal and Copenhagen are probably about the same anyway.



> gay mecca


Likewise.



> soon-to-be legal euthanasia


We'll talk when you've legalized it.



> leniency on prostitution


Legalized prostitution.



> leniency on drugs


As stated before - it is totally free to distribute drugs within the city of Christiania.



> unbelievably vibrant nightlife


Among the best in Europe (together with Amsterdam, London, Madrid etc). 



> cultural centre


I guess all cities have a cultural scene, though the ones in Europe tend to be ahead of the rest of the world. Europe is all about culture.



> it's all Montreal.


It's all Copenhagen.

I rest my case.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

^^

How can drug posession and prostitution be legal only in the city?

It sounds to me like you're ust full of SHIT. But I smelled it a while ago anyway...


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

.affed said:


> ^^
> 
> How can drug posession and prostitution be legal only in the city?
> 
> It sounds to me like you're ust full of SHIT. But I smelled it a while ago anyway...


.affed, why are you getting so angry? Staff only compared Montreal to CPH, showing that your arguments could fit CPH as well.

I know Christiania district in CPH quite well, 'cause it's also some kind of tourists attraction. The history of this district dates back to the 70's or even 60's and it's very interesting how the place developed itself.
Cristiania is a place where alternative people live. They build their own houses and lead their own way of life. As far as I know they don't pay taxes, nor electricity there. It's some kind of ghetto, but everyone can enter it. 
And yes, drugs are legal there.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Right on the spot, AMS_guy.

.affed,

Why getting angry and hostile when you're proven wrong? Accept it and move on. No one has stated that Montréal isn't a liberal city - it certainly is!

I don't think we're getting any further here.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

:runaway: This thread is getting embarassing... I think it has totally burned out.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

staff said:


> Right on the spot, AMS_guy.
> 
> .affed,
> 
> ...


Dude, I didn't get angry... When did I get angry?! :cheers:


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

BTW... drugs can't be legal in one city in a country, let alone a single neighbourhood. That's preposterous! Drug policy is a national matter, it's either legal in the whole country, or ilegal in the whole country. Perhaps Danish authorities are LENIENT in imposing the law on the inhabitants of the Cristina place (or whatever the **** you call it). The same happens in cities like Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto, where drug laws are not rigourously imposed in some disctricts.


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## Intoxication (Jul 24, 2005)

London


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## FastWhiteTA (Jul 24, 2004)

edit


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

.affed said:


> The same happens in cities like Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto, where drug laws are not rigourously imposed in some disctricts.


That's for damned sure. kay:


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

This discussion is never going to end, is it? :|



.affed said:


> BTW... drugs can't be legal in one city in a country, let alone a single neighbourhood.


If you had read what has been written before in this thread, you should by now know that Christiania is a "free town", where regular laws don't apply. The police can't enter (however, that has somewhat changed during the latest year) and uphold the law like in the rest of Copenhagen and Denmark. Christiania was sieged by activists in the 60s or 70s, and has been like this since then.

There's even a sign saying "You are now entering the EU" by the exits.

You wrote that you have been to Copenhagen, but you don't know Christiania? It is famous over all of Europe, and a very big attraction in Copenhagen. What did you do when visiting CPH, really?



> or whatever the **** you call it


Here we go again! You don't seem to act very respectful towards people that don't share your opinion (which is pretty much everybody, by now).

Just accept that Montréal isn't as liberal as Amsterdam and Copenhagen.


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

staff said:


> There's even a sign saying "You are now entering the EU" by the exits.
> 
> You wrote that you have been to Copenhagen, but you don't know Christiania? It is famous over all of Europe, and a very big attraction in Copenhagen. What did you do when visiting CPH, really?


I find that rather odd aswell.
How on earth can you miss Christiania when visiting Copenhagen? It is one of the coolest spots in Copenhagen.

Strange.

Christiania has even held concerts with big bands such as:
Bob Dylan, Sonic Youth, Ice Cube, Rage Against The machine, Melanie C, Metallica, Savage Rose, Jamiroquai, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Gravediggaz, My Bloody Valentine, Phish, Faith No More, Nofx, Sort Sol, Gwar, Manic Street Preachers, Nick Cave And the Bad Seeds, Ice-T, The Specials, Alanis Morrisette, Fishbone, Garbage, Basement Jaxx, Eat Static, Tindersticks, Morrisey, Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Boo Radleys, Portishead, Dizzi Miss Lizzy, Stone Temple Pilots og Tower Of Power.

I think that gives you an indication of how famous it is.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

Don't forget Non Phixion and Masta Ace, plus all the house DJ:s that have played there, such as Grant Nelson, Brian Tappert, Jask, John 'Julius' Knight, Lisa Loud, Blaze etc. only this summer.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

I know I will get flogged for this, but honestly I am not dragging this thing back to 
All-Gay-All-the-Time. Was just strolling through the gay village in Toronto this afternoon, and snapped these pix. I hoisted a few pints of beer, but strictly in the name of Research! 
One of the pix is inside the much discussed beer stores of Toronto (the one in the
village has about 400-500 selections), and the second pic is a statue of Alexander Wood, a legendary, and scandalous gay pioneer (1772-1844) who owned most of what is now the Church/Wellesley village, and is a local gay hero. As is well known, this
is the street where 'Queer as Folk' is filmed.


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## HirakataShi (Feb 8, 2004)

staff: has there ever been public demand to raid Christantia? And there is any equivalent in any other Nordic country?


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

staff said:


> Just accept that Montréal isn't as liberal as Amsterdam and Copenhagen.


I accept that Amsterdam is more liberal than Montreal. Copenhague is DEFINITELY not.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

HirakataShi said:


> staff: has there ever been public demand to raid Christantia? And there is any equivalent in any other Nordic country?


It has worked out for 30-40 years, and everyone seems fine about it. Polititians and the police aren't as happy with it of course, and during the latest time, the police has done raids there. There is nothing like it in any of the other Nordic countries. Denmark (especially Copenhagen) is sort of a liberal free-zone compared to the rest of the Nordics (however, all the Nordic countries and cities are considered very liberal by world standards).



.affed said:


> I accept that Amsterdam is more liberal than Montreal. Copenhague is DEFINITELY not.


That is just illogical, since AMS and CPH are on the same level.  Now you seem to have turned into a "I wanna beat Copenhagen, whatever it takes"-mode.


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

.affed said:


> Perhaps Danish authorities are LENIENT in imposing the law on the inhabitants of the Cristina place (or whatever the **** you call it).


.affed, you made me laughing a lot with this sentence, 'cause "crystal" drug is being called "Cristina" or "Tina". 
I think you did it in purpose, just for fun, didn't ya? 



_tictac_ said:


> Christiania has even held concerts with big bands such as: (...)


I also remember that in the beginning of the 90's, first underground techno/house parties were held in Christiania. Been there a few times back in these days, and so my love for house music started


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

Anyway, I must admit that when I entered Christiania for the first time, I was quite disappointed. I imagined it to be an urban area, just like a regular city district with few storey buildings and so on. Seen this kind of alternative neighbourhoods in Berlin before. But Christiania turned out into some kind of a park with a small square at the entrance, and very few stone made buildings. 

BTW, does any of Danish forumers know what is going to happen with Christiania in future? I've heard rumours that Copenhagen wants to get rid of it.
If so, what's the reason?


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Uh, I think the theoretical future of this park has been most thoroughly discussed.
Anyone care to move on to new cities, or has this thread petered out? I say
Amsterdam won!!!


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

^^ Oops, I must have been a lousy reader here, missing some info


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

staff said:


> It has worked out for 30-40 years, and everyone seems fine about it. Polititians and the police aren't as happy with it of course, and during the latest time, the police has done raids there. There is nothing like it in any of the other Nordic countries. Denmark (especially Copenhagen) is sort of a liberal free-zone compared to the rest of the Nordics (however, all the Nordic countries and cities are considered very liberal by world standards).
> 
> 
> That is just illogical, since AMS and CPH are on the same level.  Now you seem to have turned into a "I wanna beat Copenhagen, whatever it takes"-mode.


Denmark has recently been seeing in a pretty right wing backlash against years of liberalness. Christiania is dangerously close to being opened up to developers, and there are now strict laws, some of the most controversial in the EU, against marriages to foreigners. I can't remember the name but the anti-immigrant right wing party 'responsible' for these laws, although not large, is very important working as a 'swing voter' position in the parliament and amalgamated into the ruling majority.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

the spliff fairy said:


> I can't remember the name but the anti-immigrant right wing party 'responsible' for these laws, although not large, is very important working as a 'swing voter' position in the parliament and amalgamated into the ruling majority.


Yes, it is indeed very bad. They're called "Dansk Folkeparti", and is a populist right wing party with swing voter position. Danish imigration policies has become strict, yes, but Copenhagen as a city still remains the liberal oasis it has always been.


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## Desven (May 18, 2004)

1.Amsterdam
2.Berlin
3.San Francsico
4.New York
5.Stockholm
6.Tokyo
7.Paris
8.Frankfurt
...


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## Monty Burns (Sep 8, 2005)

Desven said:


> 1.Amsterdam
> 2.Berlin
> 3.San Francsico
> 4.New York
> ...


Heehee! Funny list. I agree on Amsterdam, though. 
I think you are a bit confused after that.


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

Desven said:


> 1.Amsterdam
> 2.Berlin
> 3.San Francsico
> 4.New York
> ...


:lol:
As Monty Burns pointed out, Amsterdam is a solid winner.
Now, having said that, what on earth went wrong when making the rest of that list?


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## Desven (May 18, 2004)

^^why?!


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

_tictac_ said:


> I find that rather odd aswell.
> How on earth can you miss Christiania when visiting Copenhagen? It is one of the coolest spots in Copenhagen.
> 
> Strange.
> ...


That's crappy music except for 2-3


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

PhilippeMtl said:


> That's crappy music except for 2-3


Now that's a kind of a subjective matter don't you think? Most of the artists/groups don't please me very much either, but the star factor on this list speaks for it self (Christiania is after all a small activist city inside a major capital).

However,

Jamiroquai, Ol' Dirty bastard (what do you mean "dead"? what has that to do with anything, besides making it even more prestigious that he's been there?), Gravediggaz, Basement Jaxx, Non Phixion, Masta Ace etc. are all class acts.

Plus numerous underground hiphop groups and house DJ:s such as Grant Nelson, DJ Gregory, Simon Grey, Jask, Brian Tappert etc. etc.

Remember this is only the small zone of Christiania! Copenhagen itself of course gets a shitload of supreme acts itself.


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

staff said:


> Now that's a kind of a subjective matter don't you think? Most of the artists/groups don't please me very much either, but the star factor on this list speaks for it self (Christiania is after all a small activist city inside a major capital).
> 
> However,
> 
> ...


ODC died last spring!


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

PhilippeMtl said:


> ODC died last spring!


Of course I know he died - I'm a big Wu-Tang fan (by the way, it's "ODB" ). But you wrote "dead and sucks", which looks pretty wierd. What did you mean by that, really?

We're kind of off-topic now..


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

staff said:


> Of course I know he died - I'm a big Wu-Tang fan (by the way, it's "ODB" ). But you wrote "dead and sucks", which looks pretty wierd. What did you mean by that, really?
> 
> We're kind of off-topic now..


your're right, odb.. sorry... :bash: 
I am not a gangsta rap fan, tha't the reason why... 

But you know, in Montreal we are not open so I can't accept others can love this kind of music...  

Do you have some danish hip hop groups in Denmark?


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## Monty Burns (Sep 8, 2005)

I bought only one Montreal rapper CD- K-Maro; because it reminds me of the 
strippers who just lovvvvvvvvvve that song "Femme like U" !! LOL!
Could we maybe just possibly get off the Christiania thing for a bit? Getting stale.


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

staff said:


> Yes, it is indeed very bad. They're called "Dansk Folkeparti", and is a populist right wing party with swing voter position. Danish imigration policies has become strict, yes, but Copenhagen as a city still remains the liberal oasis it has always been.


No such thing can be said of Canada and its cities.

I see we have a second and third place on our list:

1. Amsterdam
2. Montreal
3. Copenhague

...accept it already.


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## sean storm (Nov 18, 2004)

.affed said:


> No such thing can be said of Canada and its cities.
> 
> I see we have a second and third place on our list:
> 
> ...


why should we accept your opinion? what on earth makes you think montreal is #2?

there is no objective ranking, period. :stupid:


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## _tictac_ (Jan 6, 2003)

.affed said:


> No such thing can be said of Canada and its cities.
> 
> I see we have a second and third place on our list:
> 
> ...


Personal opinion my friend.
Accept the fact that others may not look at it the same way.


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## staff (Oct 23, 2004)

.affed said:


> No such thing can be said of Canada and its cities.
> 
> I see we have a second and third place on our list:
> 
> ...


I do not agree, which you may know by now.

Let's just move on.


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

To me, this is a sign that SF's still way ahead of the curve in NA when its comes to progessive policies:
*
Fierce Wi-Fi fight expected in S.F.*

Verne Kopytoff, Chronicle Staff Writer

Tuesday, October 4, 2005

Mayor Gavin Newsom said that he expects opponents of San Francisco's ambitious plan to blanket the city with affordable, high-speed wireless Internet access to file lawsuits against the effort.

There is a "very organized effort to stop this," Newsom said at a press conference Monday at City Hall. He then described the opposition as disgraceful and said that he is bracing for a war of rhetoric and lobbying.

Newsom expects San Francisco to be sued by opponents of the plan, which include some Internet service providers that fear that their subscription businesses will suffer in the face of a cheaper, or even free, alternative.

Last week, San Francisco closed a 45-day request for information period in which companies could offer their ideas about blanketing the city with wireless Internet service, known as Wi-Fi. *Newsom believes that such connections will add to San Francisco's technology credentials and help propel residents -- especially poor ones -- into the digital age.

"This is inevitable," Newsom said. "This is long overdue. This is a fundamental right."
*
Google, the Mountain View search engine, is among the 24 companies that submitted proposals. As part of its plan, Google offered to provide free wireless service at no cost to the city, potentially recouping its costs from online advertising and renting its network to other companies for a fee.

Cingular Wireless, Ericsson, Earthlink and Motorola also threw their hats into the ring, as did several startups.

Newsom said that he is creating a committee of up to seven people who will review the Wi-Fi proposals. They will decide the next step in the next three weeks, he said.

Options include opening up a more formal round of bidding, or if none of the current offers is acceptable, starting the process over again. A company chosen as a winner would ultimately have to get the approval of various government agencies, including the Board of Supervisors, the mayor said.

Chris Vein, who heads San Francisco's technology office, declined to give many details about the proposals, citing the need to go over the documents first to excise any company secrets. The proposals, he said, range from very detailed to mere overviews.

None of the companies that submitted proposals offered to share money they get from their Wi-Fi service -- such as advertising or subscription revenue -- with the city, Vein said. However, Google has offered to pay for use of city infrastructure such as the placement of antennas on light poles.

San Francisco's Wi-Fi network should be running sometime next year, Vein said.

Despite the mayor's fears of lawsuits over Wi-Fi, neither of the major telecommunications companies in the Bay Area said that they have plans for a fight. Spokesmen for both SBC and Comcast said that their companies have competitive advantages over the proposed Wi-Fi network, including faster download speeds.

"We look at it as one more competitor in a crowded field of competitors," said Andrew Johnson, a Comcast spokesman.


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## Desven (May 18, 2004)

PhilippeMtl said:


> your're right, odb.. sorry... :bash:
> I am not a gangsta rap fan, tha't the reason why...
> 
> But you know, in Montreal we are not open so I can't accept others can love this kind of music...
> ...


there are several hip hop groups in Denmark!the most famous is "Outlandish",they were succesfull in whole europe with their song "Aisha"!


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## .affed (Aug 19, 2005)

_tictac_ said:


> Personal opinion my friend.
> Accept the fact that others may not look at it the same way.


The same can be said of statements like:

"Amsterdam and Copenhague are the most liberal cities in the world"

...which is exactly what you champion; a personal opinion.


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## Scraper Enthusiast (Oct 4, 2005)

While I do not agree that liberal equals progressive, according to your definition, I would have to say that your criteria speaks of San Francisco for the United States. As far as world-wide, I'm not sure it matches your criteria, buut it is obviously close.


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## PhilippeMtl (Aug 17, 2005)

Monty Burns said:


> I bought only one Montreal rapper CD- K-Maro; because it reminds me of the
> strippers who just lovvvvvvvvvve that song "Femme like U" !! LOL!
> Could we maybe just possibly get off the Christiania thing for a bit? Getting stale.


 :hahaha:


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