# SWITZERLAND | Gotthard Base Tunnel



## hkskyline

*World's Longest Tunnel to Provide Fillip for Swiss Skiers*

*World's longest tunnel to provide fillip for Switzerland's skiers *
By HAIG SIMONIAN
4 July 2005
Financial Times

A skiers' paradise could become a rail travellers' headache after the Swiss government last week offered its support for a huge new railway station deep below the Alps.

The proposed Porta Alpina beneath the Gotthard massif would allow travellers from Zurich or Milan to reach the heart of the mountains in just 50 minutes.

That is less than half current journey times and infinitely more convenient, as the station would be within skiing distance of resorts such as Andermatt in central Switzerland.

"It would be fantastic for us and neighbouring resorts", said Urs Elmiger, head of administration at Andermatt's cable car company. "People could get out of the train, snap on their skis and be here in minutes."

But the project has aroused mixed feelings among backers of Switzerland's SFr16bn (Euros 10.3bn, Dollars 12.3bn, Pounds 7bn) trans-alpine rail projects. Railway officials decline to express themselves publicly. But most believe that stopping trains to serve a small interest group is hard to justify when spending billions to slash intercity journey times.

Switzerland is building two new tunnels under the Alps to accelerate travel between northern and southern Europe and, it is hoped, take trucks off the roads.

The first link, the 35km Lotschberg tunnel, should be opened by December 2007, easing congestion in the western Alps by reducing pressure on the current, much shorter tunnel.

Eight years later, the Lotschberg will be overshadowed by the new Gotthard link. The 57km tunnel, 3km longer that Japan's Sei-kan tunnel, currently the world's longest, is being dug from four different points to speed construction times.

The project is overwhelming from every angle. At Bodio, in Italian-speaking Switzerland, one of the world's biggest boring machines is inching its way forward in sweltering temperatures close to the mountain's core. "This is one of the world's most exciting projects", said Albert Schmid, German site manager. For safety, the tunnel will have two emergency stations deep inside the Alps.

The cavernous stops, cathedrals inside the mountain, will have full length platforms and even allow trains to change tracks between the single bore tunnels.

Since its inception, regional politicians have pressed for one of the emergency stations to be transformed into a commercial stop - called the Porta Alpina.

Doing so will involve only an additional SFr50m in spending, to convert to passenger use the 800m deep lift shaft that has been excavated to provide access for construction workers.

After a two-minute journey, the 80 travellers in each lift car will be able to alight at the mountain top near the ski resort of Sedrun, snap on their skis, and be off.

Moritz Leuenberger, Switzerland's transport minister, said the scheme would be a huge boost to regional development.

"But it's not meant to be a way of encouraging day trippers from Milan to pick loads of mushrooms in our valleys", he said.


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## Effer

Go Switzerland!


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## Nephasto

About the complains about the trains taking more time, not all the trains have to stop, so I don't see that as a problem!


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## Deadeye

Fresh news from this amazing project:


Communiqué of 04.11.2005 

*52.9 percent of the Gotthard Base Tunnel excavated*

On all construction sites of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. the work is continuing at full speed. Of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, shafts and passages, on November 1, 2005, 81.237 km, or 52.9 percent, had already been excavated.












The Alpine crossing









Geology









Tunnel system









Amsteg West single-track tunnel TBM Gabi II









Amsteg West single-track tunnel TBM Gabi II









Faido - Breakthrough in the connecting gallery









East single-track tunnel backward drive









Control cab of tunnel boring machine









Backup train of tunnel boring machine









Monorail of tunnel boring machine









West single-track tunnel









Maintenance to cutting head of tunnel boring machine









Service train









Overview of Sedrun construction site









Shaft head









Hoisting gear









Shaft bottom









Steel inserts









East single-track tunnel south










:cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :dance: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:


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## centralized pandemonium

Been thru that once, was bloody creepy.


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## Brett

cool!


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## Momo1435

My tip, go to 

English: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/service/prospekte.php 
Deutsch: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/d/service/prospekte.php
Francais: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/f/service/prospekte.php
Italiano: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/f/service/prospekte.php

Here you can get "free" brochures from the project, they send them to me in Holland.

*Some more news:*
*It looks like the Porta Alpina station, on the place of the "Multifunktionsstelle Sedrun" will be build. It will serve the Surselva tourist area in Graubunden. In the vertical tunnel build for the construction there will be a lift of almost 800 meters high. link (in German): http://www.visiun-porta-alpina.ch/

*South of the Gotthard tunnel between Bellinzona and Lugano the Ceneri base tunnel will be build, this one will be only 15,4 kilometer but is an important part of the project. 

@ HariR

It's not finished yet. Have you been through the old tunnel or did you visit a open day?


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## earthJoker

Maybe he visited a open day :dunno: 

The building sites have become a major tourist attraction.


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## Deadeye

*Webcams on the Sedrun construction site *


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## De Snor

Amazing what they do in Switzerland !
The Porta Alpina station is out of this world


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## Greg

That's not all - a second tunnel is almost finish. The Lötschberg base tunnel runs from Frutigen in the Kandertal/Bernese Overland to Raron in the Valais. It is 34.6 km long and is designed as a two-tube, single-track rail tunnel, with each tube carrying trains running in opposite directions; it will come into operation in 2007. It is planned to adapt the tunnel to increasing needs in several stages.
The new Lötschberg-Basistunnel (base tunnel) between Frutigen and Raron lowers the This tunnel is part of the NEAT projects, together with the Gotthard base tunnel, and will be integrated into a European network of high speed trains, like TGV and ICE. The tunnel will allow speed around 250 km/h. It is a two-tube, single-track rail tunnel. This means that each tube is carrying trains running in one direction. The advantage is clear: trains can be scheduled continuously in both directions, the will be no waiting time. The distance between two trains depends on the security concept, and may be minimized in the future by new technologies.


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## scorpion

amazing work~~ 

can't wait to use this tunnel!!


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## Bitxofo

Is it for high speed trains or normal trains?
:?


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## Momo1435

It's both for normal and for high speed trains, the maximum speed is 250 km/h. Normal passenger trains will have a speed of 200 km/h. But it will also be heavily used by freight trains, these will travel 100-160 km/h through the tunnel. 
The High Speed trains that gonna use the tunnel are the new pendolino's from Alstom for the Cisalpino services. There will be no regional services to the tunnel.

The old route will stil be operated by regional and interregional and light and/or slow freighttrains. 

@ greg
The, adapt to increasing needs means that the Lötschberg-Basistunnel, will be partly a single track line. In first intance there will probally be some waiting time, probally for freight trains.


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## Deadeye

Communiqué of 01.12.2005 

*54.1 percent of the Gotthard Base Tunnel excavated*

On all construction sites of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. the work is continuing at full speed. Of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, shafts and passages, on Dezember 1st, 2005, 83.163 km, or 54.1 percent, had already been excavated.


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## Küsel

Here is a map of the Lötschberg Basistunnel - it is a financial catastrophy (although a great engineering project) but had to be built for federation reasons. Bern and the Romandie also wanted to have a direct fast connection to the south. So they had to build in the same time a parallel alpine transit line to the Gotthard.

























And as 100 years ago, it's not the Swiss that build these modern wonders of the world, but cheap labarours from the south (in the 19th century it was manly Italians that had to work (and often die) like slaves - one of the reason for the high Italian pop in northern Switzerland)... the circumstances nowadays are a bit better, but... not that much 








"North and South Switzerland join"


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## empersouf

Ive seen this on Discovery, if this tunnel is completed, the connecion of High speed trains will be much better. Cool tunnel.


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## Bikaner

Any updates?


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## hkskyline

*Switzerland To Provide 4.8 Mln Euro Funding for Porta Alpina Project *
19 October 2005
Swiss News Digest

Switzerland will provide 7.5 mln Swiss francs ($5.8 mln/4.8 mln euro) support for a project for the construction of an underground station in the Gotthard tunnel near Sedrun, it was reported on October 19, 2005. 

The remaining 7.5 mln francs ($5.8 mln/4.8 mln euro) for the Porta Alpina project will be allocated by the Graubuenden canton. 

[Editor's note: The Porta Alpina project provides for the construction of an underground train station near Sedrun, halfway between Zurich and Milan, the Swiss news digest reported. Originally, the station was planned as an emergency stop, but a feasibility study showed it could be transformed into a regional railway hub against an additional investment of 50 mln francs ($38.4 mln/32.2 mln euro). The station will be accessible through an elevator that will lift passengers 800 m up. 

According to the Swiss Transport Department, the station will halve the time needed to reach Sedrun from Zurich, Lucerne, Lugano, and Milan.] 

The Swiss Federal Council issued a general approval for the project at the end of June 2005. 

The Tujetsch community at the alpine pass Oberalppass will arrange a credit of 3.0 mln francs ($2.3 mln/1.9 mln euro) to support the construction. 

http://www.aargauer-zeitung.ch 
http://www.aiidatapro.com
Source: Aargauer Zeitung, AII Data Processing Ltd.


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## matthewcs

I don't get the mushroom comment, is it a big concern?

""But it's not meant to be a way of encouraging day trippers from Milan to pick loads of mushrooms in our valleys", he said."


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## filo_2k

pflo777 said:


> so whats the next longer tunnel to be built?
> 
> 57 km cannot be the longest tunnel mankind is able to build.....
> 
> What about china? are they not planning anything?


brenner basetunnel: 59km


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## Momo1435

earthJoker said:


> I just(well about some hours ago) had the Idea that one of the two tracks could be replaced with a 1 meter gauge, or turned into a 3 track line. This way the trains could directly go from Andermatt to Erstfeld.


Yes, but extend the line to Altdorf, and then somehow to Stans or Luzern along the Vierstattersee. Then they should build the old plan for a 3 track line form Interlaken via Spiez to Zweisimmen. Then you can have the Galcier meets Golden Pass express. From St. Moritz to Montreux, that would be fantastic.  


And for the longest tunnel, if they ever decide to build the north extension for the Gotthard, it's pretty easy to extend the lenght with more then 10 km.


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## earthJoker

I always thought it would be great to have the Brünig line connected to the Monteux-Zweisimmen line.

From Altdorf to Stans could be hard, but it could get over the Seelisberg, with a cogwheel section, would shurely be a scenic track.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Communiqué of 03.07.2006 

*62.5 percent of the Gotthard Base Tunnel excavated*

On July 1, 2006, of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 96.06 km or 62.5 % had been excavated.
The total amount driven in Juin 2006 was 1,891 metres.


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## BPT

Deadeye said:


>


:master: :master:


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## gaoanyu

Wow, wish I could go by through it by train some time 
Altough I know Switzerland is really expensive..


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## Momo1435

^^
You can do Switserland on a low budget, just don't do anything expensive! (Yes, best travel tip ever!)

I like to go through the tunnel too, but it won't be as impressive as the old line.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

*64.3 percent of the Gotthard Base Tunnel excavated*
Communiqué of 01.09.2006 

On September 1, 2006, of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 98.76 km or 64.3 % had been excavated.
The total amount driven in August 2006 was 944.0 metres.


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## Mr. Fusion

pflo777 said:


> What about china? are they not planning anything?


A while back China was talking about digging a tunnel from Taiwan to the mainland, a distance which at its narrowest point is roughly 125km. Whether it happens remains to be seen, but I think as the train to Lhasa proves, if they have the technology, very little else stands in their way. :yes:


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Press release of 06.09.2006 
*Milestone in the Gotthard Base Tunnel – First Breakthrough by a Tunnel Boring Machine*

The first tunnel boring machine (TBM) in the Gotthard Base Tunnel started out in the east tunnel from Bodio in November 2002. Two months later, the second TBM started driving in the west tunnel. A number of different geological zones had to be overcome along the approximately 15 km route to the multifunction station at Faido. The highly diverse geology impaired driving progress. Modifications to both TBMs brought sharp improvements. In December 2005, with 38 metres, the TBM in the east tunnel attained the highest daily advance rate of any TBM in the Gotthard Base Tunnel to date. 
Today's breakthrough at Faido took place with the expected precision. With a tunnel diameter of just under 10 metres, the deviation per 100 metres of tunnel length must not exceed 1.5 millimetres. Continuous measurements showed that the specified accuracy was maintained along the entire length of the drive. *At breakthrough, the deviation of the TBM was only 2 cm vertically and 5 cm horizontally.*
More than 1000 guests attended the breakthrough celebration in the multifunction station and watched as tunnellers from Bodio and Faido shook hands. In his celebratory speech, Peter Zbinden, CEO of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd, praised the precision and quality of the work, and thanked the TAT Consortium, the GBT South Engineering Consortium, and the approximately 1000 tunnellers and engineers from Faido and Bodio for their achievement. 
A Construction Site Open Day will be held at Faido on Saturday, September 16, 2006, from 9 am to 6 pm. Members of the public will have a unique opportunity to see the cutting head of the TBM.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Press release of 16.09.2006

*New visitor record at AlpTransit construction site open day in Faido*

Record at the AlpTransit Gotthard construction site open day in Faido: On Saturday, September 16, 2006, almost 6,000 visitors took the opportunity to view the gigantic cutting head of the tunnel boring machine and to inform themselves about construction of the world's longest railway tunnel.

The rush already started in the early hours of the morning: Nearly 6,000 people from all over Switzerland and the Lombardy region of Italy visited the construction site at Faido. The date was deliberately set soon after the breakthrough on September 6, 2006, so that visitors would have the opportunity of marvelling at the huge cutting head of the tunnel boring machine. Access to the multifunction station at Faido was provided by shuttle buses which transported the visitors through the 3 km long access tunnel under the mountains. The visitors were interested to receive from the engineers and project team members who were present knowledgeable explanations about the machines being used for the construction process.

Saturday's event was the only Construction Site Open day being held by AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd on the entire Gotthard axis this year.



















































Press release of 09.10.2006

*More than 100 Kilometres Cut Through the Gotthard*

Early this morning the second tunnel boring machine in the Amsteg section also reached its destination – about half a year earlier than planned. Since January 2004, Gabi II has cut 10,700 metres of the west tunnel. Of the total length of the Gotthard tunnel system of more than 153 km, 100 km have now already been excavated.
At 3.37 this morning, the tunnellers in the Amsteg section of the Gotthard Base Tunnel could finally complete driving with the Gabi II tunnel boring machine (TBM). This is approximately half a year ahead of schedule. Between when it started cutting in January 2004 and today, the machine has cut 10,700 metres in the west tunnel. Only about 185 more metres remain to be excavated before the boundary to the Sedrun section is reached. For technical reasons which were planned, this remaining distance will not be cut with the TBM but by drilling and blasting. This work will start in the new year and last until summer 2007.
The Gabi II TBM will be dismantled underground by February 2007 and the individual parts transported out of the tunnel on the construction railway. 
After cutting the same distance of 10,700 metres in the east tunnel of the Amsteg section, the Gabi I TBM already reached the end of the mechanically driven length of the Amsteg section at the start of June 2006. Dismantling of this machine is already at an advanced stage.
Driving on the other sections of the Gotthard Base Tunnel is also progressing well. A few days ago the total distance cut reached 100 km. This means that of the total length of the Gotthard Base Tunnel of more than 153 km, approximately two thirds have now already been excavated.












Press release of 26.10.2006

*Gotthard Base Tunnel: Second tunnel boring machine arrives in Faido*

After driving some 13.5 km – three years and eight months after starting out from Bodio – the second tunnel boring machine reached the multifunction station at Faido. The breakthrough took place in the afternoon with a deviation of only a few centimetres.
The second tunnel boring machine (TBM) started out in the west tunnel of the Gotthard Base Tunnel from Bodio in February 2003. A number of different difficult geological zones were overcome along the approximately 15 km route to the multifunction station at Faido. Technical modifications to the TBMs in both the east and west tunnels enabled the advance rate to be improved. In December 2005, with 38 metres, the TBM in the east tunnel attained the highest daily advance rate of any TBM in the Gotthard Base Tunnel to date.
Today's second breakthrough at Faido took place with the expected precision. With a tunnel diameter of approximately 10 metres, the deviation was only a few centimetres.
With the arrival of the second TBM in the Faido multifunction station today, mechanical driving in the Gotthard Base Tunnel is currently at a stop. Both of the machines in the south will be overhauled and transported through the Faido multifunction station. In about six months time, they will resume driving in the direction of Sedrun. As planned, the cutting heads of both machines will be enlarged by 60 cm, because in view of the greater depth of rock and the consequently higher rock pressure between Faido and Sedrun, the tunnels will be cut with a diameter of 9.40 metres.
The two tunnel boring machines between Amsteg and the boundary of the Sedrun section have also reached their destination six months and nine months ahead of schedule respectively. The TBMs will be dismantled underground and the individual parts transported out of the tunnel on the construction railway.
Driving on the other sections of the Gotthard Base Tunnel is also progressing well. The 100 km mark has already been passed. This means that of the total length of the Gotthard Base Tunnel of more than 153 km, more than two thirds have now been excavated.


































*Some other cool pics*

































*Porta Alpina*












:cheer::cheer::cheer::banana2::banana2::banana2::dance::banana2::banana2::banana2::cheer::cheer::cheer:


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## Deadeye Reloaded

http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/index.php

*66.15 percent of the Gotthard Base Tunnel excavated*

On November 1, 2006, of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 101.27 km or 66.15 % had been excavated.
The total amount driven in October 2006 was 893 metres.












*BTW: Are here some people who are interested in this thread or should I stop posting the news?*:fiddle:


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## harsh1802

^^ Awesome and fantastic project......don't stop posting man.....u are doing a great job!

:cheers:


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## Calvin W

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/index.php
> 
> *66.15 percent of the Gotthard Base Tunnel excavated*
> 
> On November 1, 2006, of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 101.27 km or 66.15 % had been excavated.
> The total amount driven in October 2006 was 893 metres.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BTW: Are here some people who are interested in this thread or should I stop posting the news?*:fiddle:




I check out your thread occasionally but usually I check the tunnels site.

Keep it only a couple of years to go until completion.


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## Prestonian

No don't stop, this project is incredible!


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## Deadeye Reloaded

Thank you all for your support! Nice to see that I´m not the only fan of this project. Now I can post the news here and I know that someone will read it.:cheers:


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## Quente

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> Thank you all for your support! Nice to see that I´m not the only fan of this project. Now I can post the news here and I know that someone will read it.:cheers:


I only go to the tunnel site _after_ I see one of your updates. I appreciate the reminders on this fascinating project - thank you. Please keep posting when there's news.


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## Momo1435

I should indeed post more in this topic.

The total costs of all the Neat projects are now projected to be* 24 Billion SFr.* That will probably even be higher as the total construction of the Gotthard and Ceneri Base tunnels will take atleast another 10 years.


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## Coccodrillo

The TBM are being revised and transported to the other side of Faido station, where they will be used to excavate other (about) 12 km of tunnel.

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=175&L=1

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=177&L=1

Here the site of one of the companies, with some photos, but only in Italian and German: http://www.tat-ti.ch/

The Lötschberg tunnel (35 km) will be opened on 16th June 2007: http://www.blsalptransit.ch/en/frameset_e.htm


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## amagaldu

Momo1435 said:


> My tip, go to
> 
> English: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/service/prospekte.php
> Deutsch: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/d/service/prospekte.php
> Francais: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/f/service/prospekte.php
> Italiano: http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/f/service/prospekte.php
> 
> Here you can get "free" brochures from the project, they send them to me in Holland.


thanks a lot..!


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## Coccodrillo

gnarv said:


> Today the Loetschberg Tunnel was officially opened! It has been completed exactly in time and costed 4.3 billion Swiss Francs. Meanwhile the Gotthard Basis tunnel costs more and more every day and its opening was postponed again to 2017. hno: :lol:


The cost of the Lötschberg base tunnel was initially planned to be 3.2 billions.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

It´s been a while since the last update...et: 


http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/index.php

Communiqué of 03.08.2007

*68.1 percent of the Gotthard Base Tunnel excavated*

On August 1, 2007, of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 104.4 km or 68.1 % had been excavated.
The total amount driven in July 2007 was 359 metres.












*Status of the Work in Gotthard North (Altdorf/Rynächt) *
Work on the Rynächt underpass (Lot 006) is progressing according to plan. Now that the awards of the road construction (Lot 007) and Rynächt Embankment (Lot 012) have become legally effective, the work contracts are being drawn up. Construction work on Lot 007 will start in September 2007 and on Lot 012 in autumn 2007. 

Construction of Rynächt underpass 











*Status of the Work in Erstfeld*
The structure of the information pavilion is standing, and interior work will start very soon. The visitor pavilion and office building are also going up. In the East Preparatory Cut, assembly of the gantry crane is complete and parts for the TBM are arriving continuously. Replacement of the pre-loading ballast for the assembly of the TBM has started. On Lot 106 (Water Treatment), assembly work has started on the control and measuring instruments. The retention basins have been re-leased for use. Various assembly and installation works are in progress on Lot 110 (Spoil Processing). 

Parts of TBM 











*Status of the Work in Amsteg*
Drilling and blasting in the east tunnel was completed on May 31, 2007. The final 20 m to the Amsteg/Sedrun section boundary will be excavated from Sedrun. In the west tunnel, approximately 90 m remain to be driven by drilling and blasting. In the east tunnel, approximately 1,200 m of tunnel roof have been concreted. 

Dismantling of TBM 











*Status of the Work in Sedrun*
In both tunnels, driving in the northern direction is still proceeding at a good rate. The west tunnel is already in the Clavaniev Zone, which has not presented any constructional problems so far. Instead of the forecast advance rate of 0.4 m per day, driving is still proceeding at an advance rate of around 1.5 m per day. In the northward drives, the average remaining distance to the Sedrun/Amsteg boundary is just under 125 m. The southward drive in the west tunnel is proceeding well. On the southward drive in the east tunnel, a further core bore to explore for waterbearing zones has been completed. The results of the core bores indicate that no major water ingresses or corresponding injection campaigns need be expected in the remainder of the drive. 

Ventilation tunnel 











*Status of the Work in Faido*
Assembly and modification of the east TBM is very nearly complete. Driving towards Sedrun will begin on July 6, 2007. On June 4, 2007, the backup train for installing the concrete base was joined to the front part of the TBM. On the west TBM, the new cutting head has been assembled and already mounted on the TBM. Installation of the invert with the backup train is proceeding. 

East single-track tunnel north 











*Status of the Work in Bodio*
Since the start of May, 2007, the reprofiling work is generally only being continued in the east tunnel. To date, 240 m out of a total of 380 m have been completed (= 63%). The work in the east tunnel is expected to be completed at the end of July 2007. While this work is being done, trains are passing through the west tunnel where for reasons of safety no further reprofiling work can be done. After the August holidays, reprofiling work for the remaining 340 m (of a total of 635 m) will be started in the west tunnel and is expected to the completed by the end of the year. 

Tunnel face 











*Status of the Work in Gotthard South (Biasca) *
On June 19, 2007, the cleaning-up work on the former hazardous waste disposal site at Giustizia was accepted as complete (Lots 623 + 623.1). 

Overview of overground section at Biasca


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## railcity

*Gotthard railway celebrates 125 years*









The church at Wassen, a landmark on the Gotthard line, is draped in red for the 125th anniversary celebrations (Keystone)

Swiss President Micheline Calmy-Rey has marked the 125th anniversary of the Gotthard railway line, saying its inauguration “opened Switzerland to Europe”.

She was speaking in the southern town of Bellinzona in the presence of 200 guests from Switzerland and abroad at the beginning of four days of official celebrations.

“The opening of the Gotthard tunnel not only showed the world the know-how of Swiss engineers, but also permanently shaped the history and identity of Switzerland,” she said.

Local politicians north and south of the tunnel in cantons Uri and Ticino emphasised the importance of the 15 km-long tunnel, calling for it to be preserved after the opening of the new Gotthard base tunnel, foreseen in 2018.

The chief executive of the Swiss Federal Railways, Andreas Meyer, also cast an eye into the future, praising the idea of Ticino’s tourism president, Marco Solari, to hold the next Swiss national exhibition in the Gotthard region in 2020.

“We support this idea which very much makes us happy at the Swiss Federal Railways, even though its form still has to be discussed,” he said.


Not so optimistic

Historian and journalist Orazio Martinetti told swissinfo that he was not so optimistic about the preservation of the line.

“Maintenance of this line costs the Swiss Federal Railways about SFr50 million ($41.6 million) a year. Why should such a sum be invested in the future after the completion of the Gotthard base tunnel?

“In other words, the risk of seeing this line fall into disuse is a real one. You could hope to save it as a tourist attraction, as cantons Uri and Ticino would like. They want to see it as a Unesco cultural heritage site but I strongly doubt that it will become one.”

Martinetti said that on the technical level the Gotthard railway line remained a masterpiece of civil and rail engineering and the plans that were drawn at the time were stunning with their precision.

“In terms of history, the work reminds you of the savagery of the Wild West because of the tensions which broke out into violence several times during construction, like a workers’ uprising.”

More than 2,500 men were working at times on the tunnel. The conditions were so bad that they eventually downed tools in 1875. Several deaths were reported when police and a vigilante group of volunteers used force to end the strike.

Those attending the official celebrations on Thursday spared a thought for the 170 men who lost their lives constructing the tunnel, although modern research puts the figure at closer to 200.


Much to offer

Today, railway buffs and travellers in general discover that the main transalpine artery from north to south still has much to offer - bridges galore, steep climbs and descents with spirals, and a tunnel that has made a name for itself around the world.

The Gotthard line offers views that few other routes can rival. “The fantastic scenery makes it one of the most exciting journeys for any passenger,” London-based travel writer Anthony Lambert told swissinfo.

He is in two minds about the new 57-km long Gotthard base rail tunnel being built between Erstfeld and Bodio.

“My only slight reservation is that tourists come to Switzerland because you have the finest landscapes in Europe and they will miss many of the wonderful views of the Gotthard if they’re in a tunnel all the time,” he commented.

Historian Martinetti hopes that the old Gotthard line now being celebrated will still have recognition in the future.

“I think that history lessons in Switzerland should always have a place for the Gotthard railway,” he said.

swissinfo with agencies


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## Coccodrillo

Some news about the Ceneri Base Tunnel: http://snipurl.com/1qiow


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## earthJoker

Good news: The porta-alpina project is canceled:
http://www.news.ch/Porta+Alpina+eine+Vision+mit+zu+hohem+Risiko/287012/detail.htm
(only german)


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## Momo1435

It would've been a great train station, but it's better that it's canceled. I'm a bit surprised that it was the canton Graubünden that canceled it, I thought they were the biggest supporters of this project. But luckily most of the partners in the project are on one line right now.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

*A new milestone reached and the digging continues...* :cheers2:


source: http://www.alptransit.ch

Press release of 17.10.2007

*Gotthard Base Tunnel: Breakthrough in west tunnel between Sedrun and Amsteg*

Squeezing Rock Conditions Successfully Overcome

After one final blast, at 11 am today tunnellers from Sedrun and Amsteg could shake hands. Nine months earlier than planned, breakthrough took place in the west tunnel of the Gotthard Base Tunnel between the Sedrun and Amsteg sections with a *horizontal deviation of just under 15 cm and a vertical deviation of only 1 cm.* The concept of deformable steel inserts that was developed specially for the squeezing rock conditions of the Tavetsch Intermediate Massif proved a total success.

In the squeezing rock conditions of the Tavetsch Intermediate Massif North near Sedrun, a constructionally difficult zone with a length of approximately 1,200 metres had to be crossed. To counter the immense rock pressure, new methods of tunnel construction were used at Sedrun. In the squeezing rock conditions of this section, excavated cavities tend to close again unless countermeasures are taken. To provide support for keeping the excavated cross-section open, deformable steel rings were inserted which gradually close under the pressure of the squeezing rock until their maximum supporting force is attained. Although this technology was already known from German coal mines, it had never before been applied in these dimensions in tunnel construction.
The selected concept with deformable steel inserts more than fulfilled expectations. Despite sometimes very large deformations, driving and securing work in the difficult geological conditions of the north drive progressed so well that breakthrough took place nine months ahead of schedule. 
Driving in the Amsteg section was completed a long time ago. After each cutting a length of 10.7 km at outstanding advance rates, both tunnel boring machines reached their destination several months ahead of schedule: nine months in the east tunnel, six months in the west tunnel.
Of the total length of 153.5 km of the tunnel system being constructed under the Gotthard, on October 1, 2007, 105.1 km or 68.6 percent had been excavated.


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## Lightness

Thanks for the update. I love following this development, it's such a cool project!


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## Quente

Deadeye Reloaded said:


> *A new milestone reached and the digging continues...* :cheers2:
> 
> 
> source: http://www.alptransit.ch
> 
> Press release of 17.10.2007
> 
> *Gotthard Base Tunnel: Breakthrough in west tunnel between Sedrun and Amsteg*
> 
> Squeezing Rock Conditions Successfully Overcome
> 
> After one final blast, at 11 am today tunnellers from Sedrun and Amsteg could shake hands. *Nine months earlier than planned*, breakthrough took place in the west tunnel of the Gotthard Base Tunnel between the Sedrun and Amsteg sections with a horizontal deviation of just under 15 cm and a vertical deviation of only 1 cm.


Will this 9 month lead, which is very impressive, have any bearing on the completion date or is the project behind schedule in other areas?


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## Coccodrillo

A freight train exiting the old Gotthard Tunnel (15 km/9.3 miles) on the 23rd December 2007.












Quente said:


> Will this 9 month lead, which is very impressive, have any bearing on the completion date or is the project behind schedule in other areas?


Who knows?

The last breakthrough is scheduled between 2011 and 2012,
the opening in 2017.

Both dates are official, I don't know why they have scheduled
5 years between the last breakthrough and the opening.
Maybe because they expect delays with the boring.

Another pic taken yesterday: the TBM that will build the
intermediate access (2.5 km/1.5 mi)for the Ceneri Base Tunnel
(15 km/9.3 mi, but not very deep):


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## Mr. Fusion

The Swiss are drilling so many holes in the Alps these days its gonna end up looking like, you know... :hug:


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## Coccodrillo

On Friday 15/02/2008 the TBM started boring the second intermediate acces tunnel for the Ceneri base Tunnel.

This tunnel is 2,3 km/1.43 miles long, and not 2.5 as I have written before.

The TBM has a diameter of 9.7 m/32 ft, and has previously excavated some tunnels in Iceland with a diameter of 7.5 m/24.6 ft.

After 2.3 km excavated with this TBM a cavern will be built by drill&blast. This part of the work will last for 2 years.

Details here (English) or here (Italian).


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## Quente

It's been over 6 months since the last post on this project - any news?


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## Coccodrillo

Work is still underway. Tunnelling works will probably end in 2011.

http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/

Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
As of August 1, 2008, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 115.2 km, or 75.1%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in July 2008 was 2060 m. 

As of August 1, 2008, 1302 m, or 56%, of the 2.3-km-long window adit at the Sigirino intermediate heading had been excavated.


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## fishcatdogbird

Where is all the dirt going? Is it being used on other parts of the line to raise it or are they making a new mountain somewhere?


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## Coccodrillo

^^ the rock excavated from the mountain?

They have build some small islands in a lake, closed some rock quarries, used to manufacture concrete for the tunnel itself and other projects, used for the construction of the 11 km of railway outside the tunnel or stocked where possible.

The valley at page 24 of the PDF below has been filled with rock. The islands are shown at page 30.

When possible, rock has been transported with belt conveyors, trains and even boats instead of trucks.

See http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/img/projekt/The_new_Gotthard_rail_link.pdf (PDF, 6 MB)


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## Coccodrillo

Five TBM are in use now. Below is what they have excavated and what they have still to do.


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## The other Dude

fishcatdogbird said:


> Where is all the dirt going? Is it being used on other parts of the line to raise it or are they making a new mountain somewhere?


they made some artificial islands in the vierwaldstättersee. :banana: well, thats only a small part of all the excavated rock.

http://www.seeschuettung.ch/seiten/eroeffnung.html

























huge pic of the whole lower valley ( you can even see the NEAT construction site in the back of the valley. and even my house :-D
http://www.ur.ch/dateimanager/sicht-urnersee-06.jpg


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## mgk920

What's the latest on the fates of the 'old' lines that this and the other 'base' tunnels will replace?

Mike


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## Quente

Coccodrillo said:


> http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/
> 
> Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
> As of August 1, 2008, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 115.2 km, or 75.1%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in July 2008 was 2060 m.
> 
> As of August 1, 2008, 1302 m, or 56%, of the 2.3-km-long window adit at the Sigirino intermediate heading had been excavated.





Coccodrillo said:


> Five TBM are in use now. Below is what they have excavated and what they have still to do.


Before I ask my potentially dumb question, let me just say it's 2:06 in the morning and my brain is semi-fried from working on some CSS coding for a website. (I also think I wiped out a few brain cells while listening to US Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin's acceptance speech at the Republican convention!). :bash:

But I digress . . . 

Is there a correlation between the percentages above and the bar graph below? While I see the connection between the Sigirino bar graph and the 56% quoted, I'm not seeing the 75.1% represented in the bar graph - what am I missing (besides a brain)?:nuts:

Thanks - Kent


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## Quente

The other Dude said:


> huge pic of the whole lower valley ( you can even see the NEAT construction site in the back of the valley. and even my house :-D
> http://www.ur.ch/dateimanager/sicht-urnersee-06.jpg


I'm envious - what a beautiful place.


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## Momo1435

Quente said:


> But I digress . . .
> 
> Is there a correlation between the percentages above and the bar graph below? While I see the connection between the Sigirino bar graph and the 56% quoted, I'm not seeing the 75.1% represented in the bar graph - what am I missing (besides a brain)?:nuts:
> 
> Thanks - Kent


In the graph you only see the progress of the TBMs, if you add all the target lengths you will only come just under 40 km. That's significantly less then the total of 153.3 km of tunnels. Not all of the tunnel and especially not all the supporting tunnels are build with a TBM, so there's your difference.


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## Coccodrillo

The GBT is divided in five parts, each composed of two parallel tubes. Two parts have been completed by TBM, two are being excavated with TBM and one is being excavatcavated by drill&blast.

http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/aktuell/stand_arbeiten_gotth.php

Sigirino is an acces tunnel for the Ceneri Base Tunnel. This tunnel will be excavated mainly from there, also because the southern portal is in a very unpractical position. As of 1st September, the Sigirino acces has been excavated for 1572 m, or 68%.


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## Coccodrillo

Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
As of September 1, 2008, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 115.2 km, or 75.7%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in August 2008 was 877 m. 

As of September 1, 2008, 1572 m, or 68 %, of the 2.3-km-long window adit at the Sigirino intermediate heading had been excavated.


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## Coccodrillo

Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
As of October 1, 2008, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 118.4 km, or 77.2%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in September 2008 was 2,3 km. 

As of Oktober 1, 2008, 1813 m, or 78 %, of the 2.3-km-long window adit at the Sigirino intermediate heading had been excavated.


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## hans280

^^ Well, as one says in Switzerland, "Sie reissen sich nicht die Beine aus..." (Transl.: they're in no great hurry.) Eight hundred metres progress in August - presumably because everybody was away on vacation. That's a far cry from the frenzied pace of the Chinese, working 7/7, 24/24 including Christmas night and Buddhist Passover on their hundreds of kilometers of tunnels. But, it must be said, by our European standards this is a bl**dy impressive project. And, in all fairness, I understand that their slow pace lately has been because the rock in what is now the main drilling zone continually threatens to come down in a heap.


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## earthJoker

I am very sure that the Gotthard is been drilled 7/7, 24/24. Alone the cost of unused drill machines would by far to hight to leave the tunnel for vacations.

And this will be the largest tunnel of the world, I have no idea why you talking about "by European standards".


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## hans280

^^Well, I checked with older pages of alptransit.ch: the drilling actually stopped for summer vacations for several weeks in August. That said, I don't know whether they don't simply use this break for necessary maintenance work. 

As regards your other question, yes of course, Gotthard is the longest railway tunnel in history, but I was speaking of infrastructure in the larger sense. I'm gobsmacked at how the Chinese for example have been able, literally in a few years, to knock up a highspeed line from Central-Eastern China (Wuhan I think...) down to Canton. That's 800 km through mountains, about half of which in tunnels, and one fourth on viaducts. I don't think the planners in Beijing would dither back and forth about a bagatelle like Zimmerberg 2. :lol:


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## fishcatdogbird

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ the rock excavated from the mountain?
> 
> They have build some small islands in a lake, closed some rock quarries, used to manufacture concrete for the tunnel itself and other projects, used for the construction of the 11 km of railway outside the tunnel or stocked where possible.
> 
> The valley at page 24 of the PDF below has been filled with rock. The islands are shown at page 30.
> 
> When possible, rock has been transported with belt conveyors, trains and even boats instead of trucks.
> 
> See http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/img/projekt/The_new_Gotthard_rail_link.pdf (PDF, 6 MB)


Ace, thanks. Was always fascinated about where it went!


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## railcity

hans280 said:


> I'm gobsmacked at how the Chinese for example have been able, literally in a few years, to knock up a highspeed line from Central-Eastern China (Wuhan I think...) down to Canton. That's 800 km through mountains, about half of which in tunnels, and one fourth on viaducts. I don't think the planners in Beijing would dither back and forth about a bagatelle like Zimmerberg 2. :lol:


Yes, that's very impressive! Anyway, also in the PR China, they started to put more emphasis on economics in their infrastructure projects.


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## earthJoker

hans280 said:


> As regards your other question, yes of course, Gotthard is the longest railway tunnel in history, but I was speaking of infrastructure in the larger sense. I'm gobsmacked at how the Chinese for example have been able, literally in a few years, to knock up a highspeed line from Central-Eastern China (Wuhan I think...) down to Canton. That's 800 km through mountains, about half of which in tunnels, and one fourth on viaducts. I don't think the planners in Beijing would dither back and forth about a bagatelle like Zimmerberg 2. :lol:


I agree with you on the Zimmerberg 2. That's a polical thing.


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## Coccodrillo

hans280 said:


> ^^Well, I checked with older pages of alptransit.ch: the drilling actually stopped for summer vacations for several weeks in August. That said, I don't know whether they don't simply use this break for necessary maintenance work.


The break is for both reasons, holidays and maintenance of the TMBs.



> Press release of 08.10.2008
> 
> Successful drive into the Piora syncline from Faido
> Driving the Gotthard Base Tunnel through the Piora syncline is progressing well: the tunnel boring machine in the east tunnel has already cut through 74 percent of this geologically challenging zone. AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd expects cutting of the east tunnel through the Piora to be completed in mid-October 2008.
> 
> At the end of August 2008, the tunnel boring machine in the east tunnel was parked around 100 m ahead of the Piora syncline. AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd then drove a core bore with a diameter of approximately 10 centimetres through the Piora. The results of this bore confirm the forecast that was made based on earlier exploratory bores in this area: at tunnel level, the Piora syncline is about 150 m long and composed of dolomitic rock that is hard and bears no water.
> Since September 29, 2008, the first tunnel boring machine has been traversing the Piora syncline. The average daily advance rate is around 10 m. To prevent the tunnel boring machine from becoming jammed under the high pressure conditions, steel rings are being installed at intervals of 1 m behind the cutting head. Also immediately behind the cutting head, a shotcrete seal is being applied to protect the cut surface. Finally, approximately 25 m behind the cutting head, a 30 cm thick shotcrete ring is being constructed.
> Some 74 percent of the Piora has already been cut through. To date, the rock behaviour has been stable. There have been no indications of unacceptable deformations, and no water has been encountered. Provided that construction continues to progress at this good rate, the east tunnel will have crossed the Piora syncline as from mid-October 2008.
> The drive in the west tunnel is currently 1,600 m behind the east tunnel. The tunnel boring machine in the west tunnel is expected to reach the Piora syncline in the first quarter of 2009.
> 
> Status of work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
> 
> Construction work on the Gotthard axis is still on schedule. On the Ceneri Base Tunnel as of October 1, 2008, at Sigirino 78% of the window adit had been excavated. There is currently no driving work in progress on the main tunnels.
> On the Gotthard Base Tunnel as of October 1, 2008, of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, galleries and passages, 118.4 km, or 77 %, had been excavated. At Erstfeld, both tunnel boring machines are advancing very well at
> 14 - 17 m per day. At Amsteg, concreting of the vault will be completed by the end of 2008. At Sedrun, driving in the west tunnel towards the south is progressing according to plan. Driving in the east tunnel is taking place in a geologically difficult zone which, at more than 100 m, is considerably longer than forecast. At Bodio, concreting the inner lining of both tunnels was completed in summer 2008.
> Provided that all continues to proceed as planned, the main breakthrough on the Gotthard Base Tunnel will take place in the first half of 2011. Commercial operation of the Gotthard Base Tunnel with scheduled train services is planned to start at the end of 2017.


From http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/aktuell/pressemitteilung.php?jahr=2008#383

Note that the expected main breakthrough is scheduled now for the first half of 2011, instead of autumn 2011.

There about 35 km left. If boring continues at a speed of 2,2 km per month as today (except in this short Piora zone) the main breakthrough could be at the beginning of 2010.

And considering that one the Lötschberg base tunnel the breakthrough was in April 2005, and the opening in June 2007, the Gotthard base tunnel could be opened between June 2012 and 2013. But apparently the builders are very pessimistics and say that the tunnel will open in 2017.


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## hans280

^^ Well, I myself lived in CH in "my youth" and I would not be surprised that they should have padded their estimates. I know of no people like the Swiss who hate negative surprises (unlike the French who "aiment la pagaille" - or at least accept it), including delays and budget overruns. All constuction plans - as well as the time tables of trains, BTW - therefore tend to be overly cautious to assure the service providers that even if things start going wrong the plans can still be honoured. 

What's the odds that they'll come out of the Gotthard work with a couple of billions CHF of unspent money? And that they'll be "very surprised" and suggest that this "windfall" may be spent on connecting railway work such as... hey, Zimmerberg? Pretty strong, I'd have said.


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## earthJoker

There wont be any extra money from the Gotthard Base tunnel. The reason is mostly because the safety standards have been rised, so extra money is needed. But maybe in the end they will need less extra money then expected. The Bahn 2000 (Mattstetten - Rothrist) was cheaper than calculated.


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## Coccodrillo

The Piora zone has been traversed without any big problem.



> Pressemitteilung vom 08.10.2008
> 
> Successful drive into the Piora syncline from Faido
> Driving the Gotthard Base Tunnel through the Piora syncline is progressing well: the tunnel boring machine in the east tunnel has already cut through 74 percent of this geologically challenging zone. AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd expects cutting of the east tunnel through the Piora to be completed in mid-October 2008.
> 
> At the end of August 2008, the tunnel boring machine in the east tunnel was parked around 100 m ahead of the Piora syncline. AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd then drove a core bore with a diameter of approximately 10 centimetres through the Piora. The results of this bore confirm the forecast that was made based on earlier exploratory bores in this area: at tunnel level, the Piora syncline is about 150 m long and composed of dolomitic rock that is hard and bears no water.
> Since September 29, 2008, the first tunnel boring machine has been traversing the Piora syncline. The average daily advance rate is around 10 m. To prevent the tunnel boring machine from becoming jammed under the high pressure conditions, steel rings are being installed at intervals of 1 m behind the cutting head. Also immediately behind the cutting head, a shotcrete seal is being applied to protect the cut surface. Finally, approximately 25 m behind the cutting head, a 30 cm thick shotcrete ring is being constructed.
> Some 74 percent of the Piora has already been cut through. To date, the rock behaviour has been stable. There have been no indications of unacceptable deformations, and no water has been encountered. Provided that construction continues to progress at this good rate, the east tunnel will have crossed the Piora syncline as from mid-October 2008.
> The drive in the west tunnel is currently 1,600 m behind the east tunnel. The tunnel boring machine in the west tunnel is expected to reach the Piora syncline in the first quarter of 2009.
> 
> Status of work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
> 
> Construction work on the Gotthard axis is still on schedule. On the Ceneri Base Tunnel as of October 1, 2008, at Sigirino 78% of the window adit had been excavated. There is currently no driving work in progress on the main tunnels.
> On the Gotthard Base Tunnel as of October 1, 2008, of the total of 153.5 km of tunnels, galleries and passages, 118.4 km, or 77 %, had been excavated. At Erstfeld, both tunnel boring machines are advancing very well at
> 14 - 17 m per day. At Amsteg, concreting of the vault will be completed by the end of 2008. At Sedrun, driving in the west tunnel towards the south is progressing according to plan. Driving in the east tunnel is taking place in a geologically difficult zone which, at more than 100 m, is considerably longer than forecast. At Bodio, concreting the inner lining of both tunnels was completed in summer 2008.
> Provided that all continues to proceed as planned, the main breakthrough on the Gotthard Base Tunnel will take place in the first half of 2011. Commercial operation of the Gotthard Base Tunnel with scheduled train services is planned to start at the end of 2017.


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## Coccodrillo

*Communiqué of 03.11.2008*

*Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri*

As of November 1, 2008, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 120.5 km, or 78.6%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in October 2008 was 2,1 km. 

As of November 1, 2008, 2263 m, or 98 %, of the 2.3-km-long window adit at the Sigirino intermediate heading had been excavated.


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## panda80

Communiqué of 02.12.2008

Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
As of December 1, 2008, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 120.5 km, or 80.2 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in November 2008 was 2.4 km. 

On the Ceneri, an important milestone could be celebrated. On November 6, 2008, at Sigirino, breakthrough of the access tunnel took place.

from alptransit.ch
seems works are progressing well.


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## Coccodrillo

On the websites of the three groups of companies that are building the tunnel there are frequent updates about works:

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1 then "Rapporto settimanale avanzamento Faido" (updated every Friday)

http://www.agn-amsteg.ch/

http://www.transco-sedrun.ch/

In the Faido section the eastern TBM is progfressing slowly after the diffucult Piora section. The western TBM is before Piora and is faster.


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## keber

With that current pace of digging all tunnels could be bored until beginning of 2010. Is it possible?


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## Momo1435

^^ With a small calculation based on the latest Communiqué posted by panda80 it should be possible to finish in 14 months if they continue with the same speed. 

(153.3 - 120.5)/2.4 = 13,67 months

Then early 2010 should be possible, even late 2009 if you count from November 2008. But since they speed isn't always the same and since there can always be delays it's not easy to predict right now.


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## Quente

keber said:


> With that current pace of digging all tunnels could be bored until beginning of 2010. Is it possible?


It's a question I asked this time last year with the breakthrough in the west tunnel between Sedrun and Amsteg that was _*9 months ahead of schedule*_. According to Coccodrillo, the last tunnel breakthrough is scheduled between 2011 and 2012. But as mentioned by Momo above, they could finish this by late 2009/early 2010 _*if*_ they're able to maintain the current pace. 

It's a smart strategy - base the tunneling schedule on the worst case scenario and if you get it done earlier, you're a hero. _Underpromise, overdeliver_ - very smart.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ exactly, officially the main breakthrough is planend for the beginning of 2011 (until a few months ago, it was planned for late 2001). Opening is still planned for december 2017.

But remember that today the east TBM in Faido is boring 60 per week, instead of 120 m of the west TBM.

If all goes well...breakthrough april 2010, testing from mid 2010-mid 2011, opening in december 2012. Too optimistic? Probably, but december 2017 seems too pessimistic.


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## Quente

Coccodrillo said:


> If all goes well...breakthrough april 2010, testing from mid 2010-mid 2011, opening in december 2012. Too optimistic? Probably, but december 2017 seems too pessimistic.


Here's a possible explanation for the Dec. 2017 date: if the contractors finish the tunnel on time or early (Dec. 2012?!?), would they be awarded a bonus?

Just a thought . . .


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## panda80

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ exactly, officially the main breakthrough is planend for the beginning of 2011 (until a few months ago, it was planned for late 2001). Opening is still planned for december 2017.
> 
> But remember that today the east TBM in Faido is boring 60 per week, instead of 120 m of the west TBM.
> 
> If all goes well...breakthrough april 2010, testing from mid 2010-mid 2011, opening in december 2012. Too optimistic? Probably, but december 2017 seems too pessimistic.


i think december 2012 is too optimistic because after last breakthrough there is still a lot of work to do(placing railway lines, safety systems).probably mid 2014-begining 2015 is a realistic date.


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## hans280

Quente said:


> Here's a possible explanation for the Dec. 2017 date: if the contractors finish the tunnel on time or early (Dec. 2012?!?), would they be awarded a bonus?
> 
> Just a thought . . .


I lived in Switzerland in my youth and, believe me, these guys usually pad their estimates. It's natural: the population HATE negative surprises, so constructors have an interest in coming up with very conservative estimates of construction costs and time. Several large infrastructure projects in recent years were finished ahead of time and under budgets - which in most other countries would sound like science fiction. :lol: 

Incidentally, this principle applies to railway operations as well: SBB/CFF have one of the best timelyness records in the western world. They also have one of the lowest average speeds on their intercity trains. The two things are... not unrelated.


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## Coccodrillo

panda80 said:


> i think december 2012 is too optimistic because after last breakthrough there is still a lot of work to do(placing railway lines, safety systems).probably mid 2014-begining 2015 is a realistic date.


Lötschebrg Base Tunnel: breakthrough april 2005, opening for freight trains june 2007, regular timetable december 2007.

Maybe hoping for the last breakthrough in april 2010 is too optimsitic. However there are only 6,2 km left between Faido and Sedrun, and about 3 between Amsteg and Erstfeld.


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## Coccodrillo

Communiqué of 05.01.2009

Work is proceeding rapidly

After the Christmas/New Year break, work on all ATG construction sites has been resumed. At Bodio, Faido, Sedrun, Amsteg and Erstfeld driving is continuing.
As of January 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 124 km, or 80.8 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in December 2008 was 964 m.


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## antovador

It will be interested in the future which criterias use to measure a tunnel because tunnels become more and more complex than a tube. The brenner basis tunnel with the main entrance will be 55 km but with the Innsbruck bypass it will be 62.7 km, more than the 57 km GBT.


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## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> As of January 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 124 km, or 80.8 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in December 2008 was 964 m.


Yeah, I have to agree with you Coccodrillo: The 964 m in December represented a relatively modest progress, but EVEN AT THIS PACE the remaining 29 km could be achieved in 2 1/2 years. We should probably brace ourselves for the finalisation of the raw tunnel some time in 2011? - But, like you say, that is not to say that the railway connection will be ready anytime soon thereafter. Judging by the LGVs of France they need at least another 3-4 years after the finalisation of the "travaux de genie" to lay the tracks, install signalling equipment, etc. etc. etc.


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## Coccodrillo

1) The BBT will be 55 km long. I consider the BBT and the Inntal tunnel two separate tunnels, because the first is composed by two single track tubes, the second by a single double track tube.

2) In december only 964 m has been excavated because of holydays, usually dey bore 2 to 2,4 km per month. If all goes well, breakthrough could be in spring 2010, or in summer 2010. The opening in december 2012-december 2013.



myself said:


> Lötschebrg Base Tunnel: breakthrough april 2005, opening for freight trains june 2007, regular timetable december 2007.


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## hans280

^^ Schon gut, but the comparison with Loetschberg can take us only so and so far: more than 70% of it is single track as far as I know. Wouldn't this (I'm not sure myself...), other things equal, make the mopping up operations after the actual drillings (or "Sprengvortrieb" in this case...) significantly faster?

PS: what do you have against Cisalpino? I myself am quite impressed with the new Pendolino.


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## Coccodrillo

Track can be laid in both tubes simultaneously. Maybe they have to wait the end of boring phase, because the finished parts of the tunnel are used to remove the excavated rock with the narrow gauge service railway.



hans280 said:


> PS: what do you have against Cisalpino? I myself am quite impressed with the new Pendolino.


Cisalpino, SBB and Trenitalia wanted to put into service a new timetable projected to be used by 23 EMU trains. But there are only 9 EMU now: some trains are cancelled, some are late, because there are often no spare trains. If a Zurich-Milan train break down, as is often the case, the corresponding Milan-Zurich service is canceled, too, because there are not enough EMU.

This site reports the delays: http://cessoalpino.com/it/2009/live/ (the name sounds like "toilet-alpino" in Italian...). They also compare CIS trains with internal swiss intercitys on the same route (ICN Gotthard, trains 6xx and 10xxx).

The New Pendolino seems good, the problem is that SBB and Trenitalia wanted absolutely the new timetable, even if with only 9 trainsets instead of 23 it is impossible to operate correctly the service. In addition, these 9 sets are the first generation of Pendolino, and are quite unreliable and broke down often.


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> This site reports the delays: http://cessoalpino.com/it/2009/live/ (the name sounds like "toilet-alpino" in Italian...). They also compare CIS trains with internal swiss intercitys on the same route (ICN Gotthard, trains 6xx and 10xxx).


I took a look at the site. There's no doubt that the Swiss intercity trains operate with much less delay in like circumstances. One question, however: how much of this is due to deficiencies in the rolling stock? As I read the evidence most of the Cisalpinos are delayed in departure rather than slowing down on mid-route. If so, this could be due to late arrival of the trains from Italy - a country that, without insulting our Italian friends - is... shall we say less known for punctuality than Switzerland.


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## Coccodrillo

I think also that rolling stock is very stressed because it is always in service. I saw a train with some parts repaired with...scotch tape.

Sometimes a train should arrive in Milan at, say, 12.50 and return to Zürich at 13.10. But if the 12.50 train to Milan is late and there is not a spare trainset, also the 13.10 will be late, and so on.

Problems are caused by all factors: usual Italian delays, quite unreliable trains and lack of trainsets.

I remember an unluckily day in December, where both the 13.10 and 15.10 trains from Milan broke down. There were no working trains held in reserve, so all people boarded the 16.10 train - there were more than 600-650 people on a train with 400 seats (it was one of the remaining EuroCity, not a Cisalpino). I had a seat reserved on this train, but it was impossible to board the train, with people standing on steeps and toilets...I then opted for a car.


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> Problems are caused by all factors: usual Italian delays, quite unreliable trains and lack of trainsets.


Mmmmwell, yes, the "usual Italian delays" as you put it.... There's not much to be done about those. If the Italian populace accepts them - up to the point where the Swiss might even be thought silly or childish for expecting timeliness - then I guess there's nothing to do other than to grin and bear it. An Italian poster on Inmondodeitreni a few months back had the following comment regarding AnsaldoBreda's failure yet to provide the intercity trains to the Danish DSB that were promised for 2004: "Li stanno consegnando. Ci lavora un mio amico che ora è in Danimarca per i collaudi. Però mi dice pure che 'sti danesi rompono il c...o pure se al posto di una brugola trovano una vite normale..." 

Well... with neighbours such as these... :lol:


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## Coccodrillo

I planned today to take the 19.10 Cisalpino, but when I saw on Trenitalia website that apparently it never leaved Florence, I decided to use regional trains stopping at all stations. Instead of one hour, my trip lasted two. But, at least, I finally reached my home (Lugano, 75 km from Milano). Passengers going to Zürich took the 20.10 Cisalpino, that is still running about 20 minutes late.

Apparently also the corresponding Zürich-Florence train broke down. And they had no spare trains.

On an Italian forum a Swiss railway employee said that is yet planned that tomorrow the 19.10 and other traisn will not run because the lack of trains. I will see.


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## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> Track can be laid in both tubes simultaneously. Maybe they have to wait the end of boring phase, because the finished parts of the tunnel are used to remove the excavated rock with the narrow gauge service railway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cisalpino, SBB and Trenitalia wanted ...This site reports the delays: http://cessoalpino.com/it/2009/live/ (the name sounds like "toilet-alpino" in Italian...). often.


Not quite so : *cesso has very vulgar, and rude connotations *
more likely : dive, shithole; (riferito a cosa) load of shit; 
or even *cesspit* 
Therefore the name cesso-alpino is not very nice. 

The title of web site quoted suggests a polemic or bias attitude towards the cisalpino.

Tilting trains are more complex, hence more delicate, than conventional trains.

There could be a number of reasons for delays or break downs, which might not be necessarily ascribable to bad technical planning or construction.

All types of trains (including ICEs), as well as all types of mechanical and "biological" machines, have their strong and weak points.......

regards,


----------



## Coccodrillo

I assure you that "Cessoalpino" is the less vulgar nickname used by passengers or train drivers to define ETR 470 trains.


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## Coccodrillo

Apparently, 6 out of 9 trainsets are broken, so 8 out of 16 Milano-Zürich trains have been canceled today...only 50% of trains reched Zürich or Milan...


----------



## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> I assure you that "Cessoalpino" is the less vulgar nickname used by passengers or train drivers to define ETR 470 trains.


I have no doubt about it!


----------



## gramercy

hans280 said:


> If during the economic crisis Switzerland needs to increase its export, maybe you could simply export Christoph Blocher to some inhospitable place? :wink2:


perhaps to the land where the black sheep live :cheer:


----------



## gramercy

so, any one of you guys/gals ever heard of Swissmetro?


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## Coccodrillo

Beatiful, but extremely expensive, dream.


----------



## gramercy

Coccodrillo said:


> Beatiful, but extremely expensive, dream.


to be honest, im not convinced of that anymore

principally because the new japanes maglev will have 60 % of it in tunnels

if swissmetro were to initially only cover switzerland, a single tunnel would be enough, not to mention the smaller diameter required for the swissmetro type of maglev as opposed to the japanese maglev. smaller diameter and a single tube vs. double / two tubes means a whopping 60-70 % less volume excavated, therefore much lower costs
(another way of looking at it: for 50 kms of traditional two tubes + connecting tubes you can build 120-150 kms of swissmetro tunnels..)

now add to that the partial vacuum which at 500 kph would use 1/3rd or less the power needed for the japanese version, which makes the operation much more profitable

and as i look at it, speed could probably easily be upped to 6-7-800 kph, depending only on the breaking distances and the power vs. profitabilty


but i realize theres not much chance of it ever happening :rant:


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## Coccodrillo

There is a double track line, Basel-Olten, with 500 trains per day (suburban, intercity, freight), but no money to build a second line to decrease congestion. This line include a ~10 km tunnel, the Wisenberg. And if there is no money for 10 km of tunnel, there is surely less for an entirely undergorund 300 km line.


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## hans280

^^ Erm... now you've lost me, but then I'm still smarting from my last geographic mistakes. I thought so faithfully that the "Long Version" had been retained after public hearings, according to which the northern starting point of the tunnel would be just outside Liestal. If so, the tunnel would be anywhere from 17 to 20 km long, I think - yet you said the Wisenbergtunnel will be only about 10 km. Have I missed something?


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know any project of the Wisenberg tunnel. The existing Hauenstein Base Tunnel is about 8 km long, so I thought that the Wisenberg had a similar length.

Do you know documents or maps about the proposed variants of the Wisenberg tunnel?


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## hans280

^^Well, SBB was asked to evaluate several lines, as can seen from this link (I trust it you read German?): http://www.baselland.ch/mit-bud_2003-01-20-htm.300441.0.html. As for the rest, there was media reports a few years back that the authorities had come down in favour of the "Lang Niveau" version, but thereafter the tunnel fell out of, first, Bahn2000 and the ZEB, so I suppose the issue just died. hno:


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## joseph1951

hans280 said:


> ^^ I'm hardly an expert on Italian, coccodrillo, but I think you translated brugola out of context. Yes, it can mean hex key, but I think here it is shorthand for "vite a brugola" - i.e. a bolt. *The poster means to say that one cannot even substute a bolt for a screw without the Danes complaining. That said...*.


_The poster means to say that one cannot even substute a bolt for an (allen) screw without the Danes_ *complaining*. That said..

Dear Hans,

How diplomatic and polite was your rendering of " rompere il c...o" with "complaining".

A very cute and clever use of the translator's licence.

I did enjoy it!
Cheers!.


----------



## joseph1951

gramercy said:


> so, any one of you guys/gals ever heard of Swissmetro?


Yes, of course.
The first project planned for a top speed of 800km/h, or the second one with a top speed of 500 km/h?


Pity they were both rejected! 

I vaguely supect that one of the factors which are preventing the construction of maglev lines is the ostracism of the French who, for many years, have maintaned that the train can, not only compete with maglev, but it is also a more mature technology. 

The French have always maintained that the traditional train can reach similar speeds, and still can be used on conventional rail routes, while the maglev cannot be used on conventional lines. 
So, according to them, the conventional train can offer perfomances similar to that of the maglev but, the former is also not only compatible with the existing rail network but also cheaper and tested.

The same can be said for trains/rails with linear motors...

I suspect that, among many many reasons behind the V150 project, there was not only the intent to push the boundary of the current rail technology, but also to delay the constructions of dedicated maglev lines. (574,8km/h by rail vs 581km/h by Japanese maglev)

On the other hand, the Chinese, have bought the transrapid technology together with the konw-how. So, the question is still open. 

In future we might well buy Chinese maglevs.
Who knows?


----------



## Tri-ring

joseph1951 said:


> Yes, of course.
> The first project planned for a top speed of 800km/h, or the second one with a top speed of 500 km/h?
> 
> 
> Pity they were both rejected!
> 
> I vaguely supect that one of the factors which are preventing the construction of maglev lines is the ostracism of the French who, for many years, have maintaned that the train can, not only compete with maglev, but it is also a more mature technology.
> 
> The French have always maintained that the traditional train can reach similar speeds, and still can be used on conventional rail routes, while the maglev cannot be used on conventional lines.
> So, according to them, the conventional train can offer perfomances similar to that of the maglev but, the former is not also compatible with the existing rail network but cheaper and tested.
> 
> The same can be said for trains/rails with linear motors...
> 
> I suspect that, among many many reasons behind the V150 project, there was not only the intent to push the boundary of the current rail technology, but also to delay the constructions of dedicated maglev lines. (574,8km/h by rail vs 581km/h by Japanese maglev)
> 
> On the other hand, the Chinese, have bought the transrapid technology together with the konw-how. So, the question is still open.
> In future we might well buy Chinese maglevs.
> Who knows?



It's basically a live or die situation for the French to maintain conventional rail since the French(Alstrom) does not have the technology at hand and will take them decades to develop so if a project that utilizes Maglev comes to realization within the next ten~fifteen years they can't even enter the tender process.


----------



## joseph1951

Tri-ring said:


> It's basically a live or die situation for the French to maintain conventional rail since the French(Alstrom) does not have the technology at hand and will take them decades to develop so if a project that utilizes Maglev comes to realization within the next ten~fifteen years they can't even enter the tender process.


Yes, I agree. Their strongest point is the TGV family , and I suspect that the AGV will be far more impressive than expected. Probably, in terms of acceleration, record speeds, energy consumption, it will offer better performances than the ICE Velaro. 

Perhaps, the second and third AGV generations might have top speeds of 380km/h. 


Also, Alstom might manage to built double decker and and tilting versions.

But, above commercial speeds of 400km/h, and for transcontinental fast land journey, for goods and passengers, sooner or later, maglev will take over. 

The problem is that the Japanese maglev and conventional (Japanese) HS trains are ostracised in Europe because the Japanese have not open the market to the European competitors.

On the other hand, China has managed to acquire all Western and Eastern railway and maglev (Siemens) technologies, and sooner or later, the Chinese will be able to export both type of trains.... which if not greatly improved, they certainly will be cheaper. 

We shall see.

regards


----------



## hans280

joseph1951 said:


> Yes, I agree. Their strongest point is the TGV family, and I suspect that the AGV will be far more impressive than expected. Probably, in terms of acceleration, record speeds, energy consumption, it will offer better performances than the ICE Velaro.


Yes, I would agree. In fact I think it's almost a foregone conclusion: the AGV (or TGV Nouvelle Generation, as it was originally named) was developed specifically to face the competition from Siemens' Velaro. I don't think Alstom would have moved from prototype to commercialisation unless they were reliably assured that their product would be superior on a number of these parameters.


----------



## bluemeansgo

joseph1951 said:


> Yes, of course.
> The first project planned for a top speed of 800km/h, or the second one with a top speed of 500 km/h?
> 
> 
> Pity they were both rejected!
> 
> I vaguely supect that one of the factors which are preventing the construction of maglev lines is the ostracism of the French who, for many years, have maintaned that the train can, not only compete with maglev, but it is also a more mature technology.
> 
> The French have always maintained that the traditional train can reach similar speeds, and still can be used on conventional rail routes, while the maglev cannot be used on conventional lines.
> So, according to them, the conventional train can offer perfomances similar to that of the maglev but, the former is not also compatible with the existing rail network but cheaper and tested.
> 
> The same can be said for trains/rails with linear motors...
> 
> I suspect that, among many many reasons behind the V150 project, there was not only the intent to push the boundary of the current rail technology, but also to delay the constructions of dedicated maglev lines. (574,8km/h by rail vs 581km/h by Japanese maglev)
> 
> On the other hand, the Chinese, have bought the transrapid technology together with the konw-how. So, the question is still open.
> In future we might well buy Chinese maglevs.
> Who knows?


To reach that speed (571km/h) they had to have a 140km stretch of straight track that had a downhill section. This is as opposed to the Yamanashi Test line: 









Chock full of tunnels and hills and only 42km long. A short portion of that needed to accelerate to full speed.

Mag-lev will be able to easily maintain a cruising speed of 500km/h. Yes, rail CAN go that fast, but it's pushing it.


----------



## gramercy

joseph1951 said:


> Yes, I agree. Their strongest point is the TGV family , and I suspect that the AGV will be far more impressive than expected. Probably, in terms of acceleration, record speeds, energy consumption, it will offer better performances than the ICE Velaro.


the Velaro came out in 2000, the AGV will be at least 10 years younger....and naturally better in some ways (even thought it is french :nuts: )

what worries me is that siemens doesnt seem to be doing much

by this time they should have either a tilting version, or a double decker, or a faster version or a new version with significant improvements hno:


----------



## Tri-ring

> The problem is that the Japanese maglev and conventional (Japanese) HS trains are ostracised in Europe because the Japanese have not open the market to the European competitors.


This is completely bull.
If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
ICE will not be able to clear noise pollution requirements.(Tunnel booming)
TGV will not be able to clear acceleration requirements
AGV will not be able to clear passanger capacity requirements

The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competeing here in the Japaense market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.


----------



## Dinivan

^^ it's the first time I hear the European market is closed, any proof to check veracity? news, or whatever... I think the european trains are better suited to european needs and that's it (and thank god for that, cos japanese trains are so much fugly...)


----------



## gramercy

Tri-ring said:


> This is completely bull.
> If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
> ICE will not be able to clear noise pollution requirements.(Tunnel booming)
> TGV will not be able to clear acceleration requirements
> AGV will not be able to clear passanger capacity requirements
> 
> The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competeing here in the Japaense market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.


FYI Hitachi high-speed trains now run in the UK.


----------



## Tri-ring

gramercy said:


> FYI Hitachi high-speed trains now run in the UK.


Yes I know but that is because the British does not have a HSR industry in the first place and they were turned down the first time because the European mainland placed concerns of the train sets traveling on mainland soil.


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## gramercy

Tri-ring said:


> Yes I know but that is because the British does not have a HSR industry in the first place and they were turned down the first time because the European mainland placed concerns of the train sets traveling on mainland soil.


well, whats it matter?
in 10 years time everyone will be supplied by.......china


----------



## honwai1983

gramercy said:


> well, whats it matter?
> in 10 years time everyone will be supplied by.......china


It may be.

As mainland China is still R&D and importing other technologies from other countries~~


----------



## gramercy

honwai1983 said:


> It may be.
> 
> As mainland China is still R&D and importing other technologies from other countries~~


yeah

meanwhile the total order of high-speed trains for the entire european continent is below 500* units.....and thats for the next 5-7 years
thats less than 100 units / year....for the entire continent

we should _already_ have a paris-istanbul 360kph line, we should already have a berlin-paris 360kph line, but what do we have: the germans and the austrians are so stingy they only build 250kph and only very short sections, the rest will remain 160kph
and eastern europe (hungary especially  ) is a JOKE


*: hmm, according to http://www.railfaneurope.net/ there are only 160 trainsets currently ordered in the whole of europe (turkey and russia included) that can go 250kph or above
160!!! thats pathetic


----------



## Momo1435

So, any news on the Gotthard Tunnel.


----------



## bluemeansgo

Tri-ring said:


> This is completely bull.
> If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
> ICE will not be able to clear noise pollution requirements.(Tunnel booming)
> TGV will not be able to clear acceleration requirements
> AGV will not be able to clear passanger capacity requirements
> 
> The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competing here in the Japanese market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.


While you may be "technically" correct, if you are Japanese, you must understand that a non-Japanese High Speed train in Japan is extremely unlikely.

Those strict requirements are a result of continuous improvement in those areas and while Japan DOES have high standards, the truth, the "本音" is that it just wouldn't be allowed. The Japanese economy is very protectionist. This is not entirely a bad thing, but honestly, now... you know it will likely never be "allowed" to happen. Even if a train MET those requirements, it's likely a reason would be found to make it not worth the effort.

Japan likes to use homegrown technology and in some fields, "unofficially" closes the door.

If you ride an N700 shinkansen, you will see a sign on the door. It says something like: "If you...[open door/push alarm/something else], you will be inquired by attendants"

I'm not sure about the first part, but the second part is verbatim.

While this is understandable English, it's awkward and obviously not written by an English native speaker. Why? Why, in a progressive nation didn't the National Railway, on the railway's flagship train, not hire a native English translator to write this warning messages in English? Why? Because a Japanese person who has learned English is preferable.

If you walk around Ninjo-jo(the shogun's old house) in Kyoto, a World Heritage site, a national treasure, a popular tourist spot... there is a sign which says: "No parking for emehgency vehicle".[sic] A missing comma/word completely change the meaning to the opposite of what's intended. (Spelling mistake intentional, twas how it was written). This is a world heritage site, you'd think the government of Japan would hire an native English speaker. There's a lot of them in Japan.

These two examples aren't entirely related to the topic, but they demonstrate that, in general, Japan prefers to use Japanese people, Japanese technology, Japanese food products. It's just the way it is. Again, not entirely a bad thing, but to say that the main reason Europeans don't try to compete in Japan is because the standards of Japan are too high is not telling the whole story.

I'm sure the European train systems could at least compete on price, though with the easy access to loans from Japanese banks at almost no interest, I think even then, Japanese systems would win out.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying that Euro trains currently meet "Japanese" standards, I'm just saying that it's not the whole story, and really only plays a minor role in the big picture... and if you're honest with yourself, you'll see that too. If not, perhaps you need to look at Japan from a non-Japanese point of view.


----------



## Tri-ring

bluemeansgo said:


> While you may be "technically" correct, if you are Japanese, you must understand that a non-Japanese High Speed train in Japan is extremely unlikely.
> 
> Those strict requirements are a result of continuous improvement in those areas and while Japan DOES have high standards, the truth, the "本音" is that it just wouldn't be allowed. The Japanese economy is very protectionist. This is not entirely a bad thing, but honestly, now... you know it will likely never be "allowed" to happen. Even if a train MET those requirements, it's likely a reason would be found to make it not worth the effort.
> 
> Japan likes to use homegrown technology and in some fields, "unofficially" closes the door.
> 
> If you ride an N700 shinkansen, you will see a sign on the door. It says something like: "If you...[open door/push alarm/something else], you will be inquired by attendants"
> 
> I'm not sure about the first part, but the second part is verbatim.
> 
> While this is understandable English, it's awkward and obviously not written by an English native speaker. Why? Why, in a progressive nation didn't the National Railway, on the railway's flagship train, not hire a native English translator to write this warning messages in English? Why? Because a Japanese person who has learned English is preferable.
> 
> If you walk around Ninjo-jo(the shogun's old house) in Kyoto, a World Heritage site, a national treasure, a popular tourist spot... there is a sign which says: "No parking for emehgency vehicle".[sic] A missing comma/word completely change the meaning to the opposite of what's intended. (Spelling mistake intentional, twas how it was written). This is a world heritage site, you'd think the government of Japan would hire an native English speaker. There's a lot of them in Japan.
> 
> These two examples aren't entirely related to the topic, but they demonstrate that, in general, Japan prefers to use Japanese people, Japanese technology, Japanese food products. It's just the way it is. Again, not entirely a bad thing, but to say that the main reason Europeans don't try to compete in Japan is because the standards of Japan are too high is not telling the whole story.
> 
> I'm sure the European train systems could at least compete on price, though with the easy access to loans from Japanese banks at almost no interest, I think even then, Japanese systems would win out.
> 
> Just to reiterate, I'm not saying that Euro trains currently meet "Japanese" standards, I'm just saying that it's not the whole story, and really only plays a minor role in the big picture... and if you're honest with yourself, you'll see that too. If not, perhaps you need to look at Japan from a non-Japanese point of view.



Oh boy, just two signboards as proof that the whole Japanese society is protectionist.hno:
The first one your not even sure if it was the exact wording and the second one is probably 20~30 years old.
Look, foreign companies would probably meet some resistance but if their product *including after service* were superior than the Japanese then they will have no problem in winning.
If they didn't they can take it to court. 
That is how it works but you insist that Japan would not consider even if they provide overall superior product/service.
Companies like IBM, Boeing & Airbus are doing phenomenal success in both the public and private sector. 
Both Seimens and Alstrom have an office here in Japan for more than 50 years and they both have good relationship with governmental entities.
Don't give me that bull that Japan is protectionist.
It's their products that failed the test not the system.


----------



## gramercy

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2009/1/17/15715/3557


----------



## bluemeansgo

Tri-ring said:


> Oh boy, just two signboards as proof that the whole Japanese society is protectionist.hno:
> The first one your not even sure if it was the exact wording and the second one is probably 20~30 years old.


Perhaps, those were bad examples, but I think perhaps you missed the point. These signs exist partially because of the way business works in Japan. They don't necessarily point to protectionism. They are merely an example which anyone can understand. 

You must know this if you live in Japan, especially if you work in Japan. Actually, do you live/work in Japan?


> Look, foreign companies would probably meet some resistance but if their product *including after service* were superior than the Japanese then they will have no problem in winning.


Depends who sets the criteria as to what exactly "Superior" means.

As I'm sure you know Japanese business (along with other Asian nations) work differently than Euro businesses. In Japan, business relationships are made and kept through trust, and not always the better/cheaper product. Through working together and hard work, they often make great products. Japan doesn't have a lot of innovations, it has a lot of improvements. Take a product and use Japan's cultural strengths (harmony in the workforce, putting the group over the individual, a thirst for absolute perfection) to improve the product.


> If they didn't they can take it to court.
> That is how it works but you insist that Japan would not consider even if they provide overall superior product/service.


I'm not insisting, I'm merely stating that things are different in Japan. By court, I assume you mean "Japanese court"?


> Companies like IBM, Boeing & Airbus are doing phenomenal success in both the public and private sector.


Companies in which there is no direct Japanese competition.


> Both Seimens and Alstrom have an office here in Japan for more than 50 years and they both have good relationship with governmental entities.
> Don't give me that bull that Japan is protectionist.
> It's their products that failed the test not the system.


Who writes the criteria for the test?

Let's be honest here. If China built a train system that was superior in every way to the Japanese system, do you honestly think that China would be able to sell it to Japan? Can you honestly, with a straight face say that you can see it happening?

Even if it exceeds ALL the criteria, there will be someone who stands up and says, well, it's a great system, but it just doesn't suit the Japanese criteria of (add new criteria here).

As I said before, being a protectionist country isn't necessarily a bad thing. It keeps Japanese companies busy and they are able to create niches for products that suit Japanese sensibilities.

Trust me on this one. I love Japan, but I see it from a slightly different perspective.

It's a very common feeling among many Japanese that Japan is unique, and has unique circumstances and so those needs can only be met by Japanese people/companies. Not all feel this way, but in general it's pervasive enough to affect business practices.


----------



## Tri-ring

@bluemeansgo

I live and work here in Japan working with various foreign company. I know what happens.
In terms of overall service. 
It's as the article gramercy supplied, if the companies are not ready to invest developing repair shops on site, with trained maintanace personnel that can speak fluent Japanese and answer to any questions that JR may have, ready to use parts for back up so it does not sit in shop for two weeks and still be economically cheaper then the Japanese counterparts then yes they will win.
Hitachi, when they did the bidding for the Javelin they met those criteria as well as for it's high product performance.
I don't see Seimens or Alstrom make those kind of commitment here in Japan and they sure do not meet product criteria JR imposes. 
It's not just price, it not just product performance it's overall service that really comes to play.
Even if there is a product that meets all of JR's requirements that is cheaper it still will not be selected if takes two weeks to fix the damn thing when it breaks down since it will cost JR more in loss of revenue.

By the way IBM has fierce competition with Japanese Hi-tech companies like Fujitsu, NEC, and/or Hitachi.
Boeing and Airbus has cometition for parts and alot of the Japanese companies acts as sub-contractors for those companies.
Alstrom and Semiens I believe supplies part for electrical generators with again competition like Toshiba, Fuji Heavy Industry, Hitachi, Kawasaki and so on.
So please don't try to patronize me on how open or closed this market is.


----------



## bluemeansgo

I don't mean to patronize you, Tri-ring. I apologize if you feel that way.

I still don't think even you believe that, for example, a Chinese train manufacturer would have a chance in Japan. It just wouldn't happen. You and I both know that. If you asked 100 of your co-workers if they think China would ever make a train system in Japan, I guarantee 99% would feel the same way.

There would simply be too many barriers erected to make it not worth their while. 

As a *general* rule, Japan is more closed than "most" countries. *ALL *countries have a degree of protectionism. Japan is "more" protectionist than most. I don't know why you care so much, to tell you the truth. I personally don't think it's a bad thing... globalization is not an entirely positive thing.


----------



## Tri-ring

bluemeansgo said:


> As a *general* rule, Japan is more closed than "most" countries. *ALL *countries have a degree of protectionism. Japan is "more" protectionist than most. I don't know why you care so much, to tell you the truth. I personally don't think it's a bad thing... globalization is not an entirely positive thing.


You're falling for the same empty cries that most foreign companies make when they were not able to penetrate the Japanese market.

1; Criteria of any product is set by the customer not by the market. Just because a product sells well in the domestic market does not mean it will be an instant success in Japan.

2; After service must be at same level as the Japanese counterparts.

3; Price is not the only decisive factor. A balance of product, after service and price will always be measured.

4; Empty promises brings nothing. Statements like we will produce a service shop IF you purchase doesn't fly. Customers are expecting to see a service shop before buying not the otherway around. 

Nokia just moved out of the Japanese mobile phone market. They thought they will become No.1 but was proven wrong because they did not meet 1. 
On the otherhand Dyson was able to gain some market share because they got 3 right.
Alot of companies are not able to comply to 4 and fail.

Japan is an exporting nation and a image of protectionism is life threatening to the export industry since the door swings both ways. Japan complies to all WTO regulations and rules and takes it very seriously.

It does not matter if it is Chinese, French or German as long as it satisfy the customers they are all welcome BUT do not expect any special treatment. It's a dog eat dog competition here and only companies that are will to make a long term commitment will be able to enter.


----------



## pietje01

On topic please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Start a thread elsewhere to discuss the japanese market.
This topic is about the Gotthard Base Tunnel.


----------



## bluemeansgo

Tri-ring said:


> It does not matter if it is Chinese, French or German as long as it satisfy the customers they are all welcome BUT do not expect any special treatment. It's a dog eat dog competition here and only companies that are will to make a long term commitment will be able to enter.


If you say so. I guess we all have our own opinions. 

Back to the Gotthard base tunnel, One thing I haven't seen, is any 3d fly-through. There was a great one I saw of a new proposed tunnel in Seattle, WA.


----------



## joseph1951

hans280 said:


> Yes, I would agree. In fact I think it's almost a foregone conclusion: the AGV *(or TGV Nouvelle Generation, as it was originally named) was developed specifically to face the competition from Siemens' Velaro. I don't think Alstom would have moved from prototype to commercialisation unless they were reliably assured that their product would be superior on a number of these parameters*.


I totally agree.


----------



## Coccodrillo

hans280 said:


> ^^Well, SBB was asked to evaluate several lines, as can seen from this link (I trust it you read German?): http://www.baselland.ch/mit-bud_2003-01-20-htm.300441.0.html. As for the rest, there was media reports a few years back that the authorities had come down in favour of the "Lang Niveau" version, but thereafter the tunnel fell out of, first, Bahn2000 and the ZEB, so I suppose the issue just died. hno:


I don't speak German but I can sometimes understand it.

I came back home yesterday, so I haven't read your message until now. 



pietje01 said:


> On topic please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Start a thread elsewhere to discuss the japanese market.
> This topic is about the Gotthard Base Tunnel.


Can someone split this topic?


----------



## joseph1951

Tri-ring said:


> This is completely bull.
> If the European wanted they can make tender for any of the routes but they know they can't win because of the strict requirements JR imposes.
> ...........The European competitors knows this so haven't bother competeing here in the Japaense market but using it as an excuse to close European markets.


When I was working professonally I dealt also with Japanese businessmen. Woderufl people, who valued the "word of honour" , quality, .. reliability, etc. The price was a secondary factor. However, in my previous post, I quoted an official UE complaint/allegation. For too long the Japanese market was a tad to close up to the global competitors. These attitude is changing. Incidentally, a certain dregree of protectionism is practised in every Country, and it is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes is a good thing. And with this i close the discussion. We are completely OT. 
The topic is about "The Gottard Base Tunnel...World Longest Rail Tunnel (57 kms)" 

Kind regards,


----------



## Coccodrillo

TBMs are now boring 15 to 20 m per day.

http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1

http://www.tat-ti.ch/fileadmin/user...5-09_TAT_TA-Faido_Vortrieb_Uebersicht_EST.pdf


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## joseph1951

gramercy said:


> the Velaro came out in 2000, the AGV will be at least 10 years younger....and naturally better in some ways (even thought it is french :nuts: )
> 
> what worries me is that siemens doesnt seem to be doing much
> 
> by this time they should have either a tilting version, or a double decker, or a faster version or a new version with significant improvements hno:


The new AGV will be the first serie of a nouvelle generation. Then, probably, we will have a 2nd generation of AGVs with more powerful motors, then we might have AGVs of 3rd generation, with tilting capability, and also double decker versions.

Although, at the moment, the critical oscillatory movements of the strengthen French catenary start at around 600-620 km/h and the rail-track lost of contact starts occurring at around 700km/h, with new and more aerodinamic designs it mgith be possibile to further reduce:

a) the air drags , b) the electrical consumption, c) the train weight. The new AGV engines are the first of a new generation of electrical motors. 

With regards to weight/power ratio, these new motors outperform all other previous electrical rail motors, and this is only the beginning.

In the not too distant future it might be possibile to have conventional trains running on a few dedicated lines at 400-450 km/h. 

This might be the upper limit of the commercially feasibile conventional rail passenger (and AGV versions used for light goods fast trains).

Obviously, these type of speeds will be suited only on long HSLs stretches, and limited to certain Countries.

Nevertheless, lighter articulated trains, with extremely high power/weight ratio (let's say 40kW/ton), with top speeds limited to 300-350 km/h with such power/weight ratio these AGVs will be capable of extremely fast accelerations, similar to that obtainable with the present maglec technology.
It not only the rail, wheel contact that causes air drags, it is mostly the front of the train which causes a lot of problems.. etc, etc,


For short distances, fast acceleration is the most importan factor. 

I don't think, that Siemens will simply watch Alstom without doing nothing.
take care,


----------



## Coccodrillo

*Please, try to remain in topic.*


----------



## joseph1951

Coccodrillo said:


> TBMs are now boring 15 to 20 m per day.
> 
> http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1
> 
> http://www.tat-ti.ch/fileadmin/user...5-09_TAT_TA-Faido_Vortrieb_Uebersicht_EST.pdf


Wonderful!


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## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> TBMs are now boring 15 to 20 m per day.
> 
> http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1
> 
> http://www.tat-ti.ch/fileadmin/user...5-09_TAT_TA-Faido_Vortrieb_Uebersicht_EST.pdf


Mille grazie for providing this link! I was getting so frustrated with the official "alptransit" site, which usually lets us wait until the 20th or so of each month before telling us what happened the previous month - and which in the last 6 weeks has remained largely mum. Judging from the speed of progress, it looks like the drills are finally out of the disturbance zone that caused them to slow down over the last year?


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## kato2k8

gramercy said:


> topgear doubled the nr. of workers and they worked for 24 hrs instead of 5x8, which saved money on wages and only inconvenienced the people for just 1 day


5x8 x n = 40n
24 x 2n = 48n

=> they spent 20% more on wages than originally planned - minimum, more likely one has to account for nighttime bonus, i.e. minimum +10% for 1/3rd of the time, and overtime bonus (12-hour-shifts?).


----------



## gramercy

kato2k8 said:


> 5x8 x n = 40n
> 24 x 2n = 48n
> 
> => they spent 20% more on wages than originally planned - minimum, more likely one has to account for nighttime bonus, i.e. minimum +10% for 1/3rd of the time, and overtime bonus (12-hour-shifts?).


fine

now calculate the amount inconveniencing people for 7 days vs. just 1 day and you are most likely in the green


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## kato2k8

Weighs up pretty much against the night work done right in front of their houses.


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## gramercy

kato2k8 said:


> Weighs up pretty much against the night work done right in front of their houses.


it was a rural road, you can probably watch the episode on youtube


----------



## Coccodrillo

Document about the northern portal of the Ceneri Base Tunnel:

http://www.tunnelbuilder.com/Ceneri_Nord.pdf

(only in Italian, but with some drawings, 1,3 MB)


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> The Lötschberg Base Tunnel (shorter, but still 34,6 km, the fouth longest railway tunnel of the world anyway) broke thrrought in April 2005 and has been opened in June 2007 (for passenger by the timetable change of December).


Yes, but wasn't the LBT done almost exclusively through blast tunnelling? (Sprengvortrieb, in German.) I ask because I seem to remember that in this case you cement the tunnel as fast as you progress. Conversely, the drilling of Gotthard leaves a raw tunnel, with considerable extra work to be done before the thing is finished. (Look again at the diagrammes you have posted: a lot of tunnel broken 1-2 years ago is still not green.) Hence, I'd have thought after the final breakthrough they'll probably need another couple of years before the tunnel is ready to even contemplate railway work?


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## Coccodrillo

The Faido yard lies on the bottom of a narrow valley, where there is no space and no flat land to store the spoil excavated from the tunnel. That's probably one reason that didn't allowed the use of TBM from Faido towards Sedrun until the breakthrought of the Bodio-Faido section.

As solution for this problem was, ten years ago, planned to build a transport tunnel between Faido and Bodio. From Faido acces tunnel a small (~4 m diameter) tunnel was to be bored towards Bodio. The spoil excavaded by TBM or drill&blast from Faido section would have been transported via this small tunnel to Bodio and there to a depot or loaded on trains.

For this reason the west tunnel between Faido and Bodio can't be finished until the TBMs arrive in Sedrun: it is used to transport spoil and other materials to/from Bodio. Anyway, the definitive lining of the tunnel has been finished (ie the green part).

Description of the first project: http://www.lombardi.ch/publications/pdfviewer.php?ID=373 (PDF, in French)

Other documents: http://www.lombardi.ch/

PS only about 1300 m have still to be bored in the west tube between Erstfeld and Amsteg, and 2500 in the other.


----------



## Coccodrillo

PPS a view of the Faido yard from alptransit.ch:


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> ...For this reason the west tunnel between Faido and Bodio can't be finished until the TBMs arrive in Sedrun: it is used to transport spoil and other materials to/from Bodio. Anyway, the definitive lining of the tunnel has been finished (ie the green part).
> 
> PS only about 1300 m have still to be bored in the west tube between Erstfeld and Amsteg, and 2500 in the other.


Thanks for these clarifications, Coccodrillo. I'd say your PS is almost the most riveting observation: I think we both remember that the contractors lengthened the projected construction time by almost two years with express reference to the delays and political squibbles (in Kanton Uri, of course - bloody "verkrusteten Innerschweizer"!!! :lol over the Erstfeld connection. Well... if that's going to be finished BEFORE the Faido-Sedrun link then, surely, at least the additional two years fall away?


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## Coccodrillo

Probably seeing the problems at Erstfeld and the lack of space at Faido they decided do slow down also works at Faido.

From the same PDF, what was planned in october 2000:


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## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> Probably seeing the problems at Erstfeld and the lack of space at Faido they decided do slow down also works at Faido.
> 
> From the same PDF, what was planned in october 2000: [snipped]


OK, get your point: the breakthrough between Sedrun and Faido was always scheduled to be the last to be achieved. An interesting angle, however, from your diagram is the indication that the heavy engineering works shall be finised *two full years *after the final breakthrough. If, as people now expect, the breakthrough is achieved some time in 2010 then we can work back from there and say, the tunnel will be ready for track laying, signalling and electrification some time mid-2012. Where does this leave us concerning finalisation?


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## Coccodrillo

- last breakthrought June 2010 (second TBM from Faido)
- end of civil works in June 2012
- end of track laying in June 2014
- opening December 2014, 4 and a half year after the breakthrought

Is it possible? I repeat that the Lötschberg Base Tunnel broke throught in April 2005 and opened in December 2007, 2 and a half years after.

And as far I remember, this year the east tube will see the first rails, maybe only for a short length, as a test. In Erstfeld track laying was expected to take place from 2010.


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> - last breakthrought June 2010 (second TBM from Faido)
> - end of civil works in June 2012
> - end of track laying in June 2014
> - opening December 2014, 4 and a half year after the breakthrought
> Is it possible?


It is certainly possible. The question is, is it realistic? My office next-door neighbour is a smug Korean from Seoul, who likes to tell me how the freeway between the capital and Pusan was completed in a couple of years by crews of workers - not to mention the CEO - who worked relentlessly around the clock. The CEO lived in his office for two years and went home to his family not once. Young Sang Mok finds it a bit difficult to understand that the guys who purport to be busy renovating our local metro station here in Paris stop working every Friday afternoon. My feeling is, Switzerland is closer to France than to East Asia? :lol:

OK, seriously now. I guess it might be possible to open Gotthard within two years after the completion of the heavy engineering, but I still think it would be a hard slug. Take a look at this schedule for the finalisation of LGV-Rhin-Rhone-Est: http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/lgv_RR_BE_calendrier.pdf. As you'll see they expect to open slightly less than two years after finishing all the "heavy stuff" (including a test period for the trains) - so far so good. They also, however, count on having almost another two years to do railway equipment work while still finalising the heavy stuff - and THAT, Cocodrillo, I'm not so sure you can do in the middle of a mountain. OK, you cover that base by mentioning that the Swiss tunnelers home to start some railway work in the eastern tunnel in the none-to-distant future. Good luck to them, but... it might yet be a long shot.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Weekly (every friday) updates of works: http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1

Plan of Faido station: http://www.tat-ti.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Dokumente/Stand_der_Arbeiten_KW13_09_26032009.pdf (2.7 MB)


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## Luganese1980

*Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri*
As of April 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 129.3 km, or 84 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in March 2009 was 1995 m.

Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is proceeding at full speed. On the north portal at Camorino/Vigana, as well as on the south portal at Lugano/Vezia, preparation work is in progress. At Sigirino, following breakthrough of the window adit, final work in the logistics cavern is in progress.

http://new.neat.ch/en/?no_cache=1&cHash=81c81f602d


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## gramercy

great progress, exactly 24 kms remaining, thats a little over 1 year :WOOT:


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## Coccodrillo

We don't know. Now they are boring 2 km/month because the TBMs in Erstfeld are boring fast. But in June they will arrive in Amsteg, then only the two TBMs from Faido (~350 m/month) and the explosive frm Sedrun will continue boring.


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## hans280

^^Exactly. And please note that the graphic representations on the NEAT website are not equidistant. To allow visitors to gauge the more spectactular parts of the project, they overrepresent the caverns and underrepresent the "unglamorous" ordinary tunnel pipes. I'd estimate another 7-8 km remain to be drilled between Faido and Sedrun. With a progress of 3-4 km per month this is likely to take another two years. - Following which a non-trivial amount of time will go into converting raw tunnel into the final product.


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## Coccodrillo

Exactly.

From http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1 there are left...
Ancora da scavare fino a Sedrun: 6'053.40m in the western tube
Ancora da scavare fino a Sedrun: 5'163.00m in the eastern tube

This is the distance remaining to the border of the contract. There are another 1-2 km assigned to Sedrun contract.


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## gramercy

soo...whats your guesstimate of final breakthrough?


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## antovador

great, east tunnel,s Ertsfeld TBM work again, remain 33 m for breaktrough (see link posted above)


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## Coccodrillo

Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri

02.06.2009

Sedrun

As of June 1, 2009, of the total of 153.3 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 133 km, or 86.78 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in May 2009 was 2091 m.

Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is proceeding at full speed. On the north portal at Camorino/Vigana, as well as on the south portal at Lugano/Vezia, preparation work is in progress. At Sigirino, following breakthrough of the window adit, final work in the logistics cavern is in progress.


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## gramercy

why did they close the trolley system in Lugano?


----------



## Coccodrillo

They said that they hadn't the money to replace trolleybuses and old parts of overhead wires (about 30 to 50 million € all included). But they found 200 millions for a road tunnel and other road infrastructures. The local authorities are now planning a tramway, but there is no money at the moment.


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## gramercy

i think trolley buses should be used much more, especially considering 0 emissions

one of the reasons i like swiss small towns is that a lot of them have / had .. trolleybuses


anyway, great progress on gotthard


----------



## Coccodrillo

The east TBM of the Erstfeld-Amsteg section is stopped 23 m before the end of its section of tunnel since a few days. It will wait here until the 16th June, because the event will be broadcasted live by the Swiss televison.

The west TBM has still 1,4 km to excavate.


----------



## gramercy

SF needs 4 days to roll up to broadast?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Apparently


----------



## earthJoker

> Successful Breakthrough: Federal Councillor Leuenberger Congratulates
> 
> 15.06.2009
> 
> Just before 12 noon today, the tunnel boring machine Gabi 1 broke through the last metres of rock between Erstfeld and Amsteg. By covering a distance of 7.2 kilometres in only 18 months the machine arrived in Amsteg half a year earlier than planned. At the construction site, Federal Councillor Moritz Leuenberger congratulated the tunnel constructors on this outstanding achievement.
> 
> In his speech, Federal Councillor Leuenberger showed that he was highly impressed by the efficient progress on construction, and expressed his thanks to everyone involved, especially the tunnellers. With the construction of the NRLA, Switzerland can prove to Europe that it belongs to Europe, because Switzerland is building the longest railway tunnel in the world for Europe with Europeans. Not only is the NRLA central to the Swiss policy of transferring traffic from road to rail, Europe also admires Switzerland for expanding its railway infrastructure so uncompromisingly, said Leuenberger.
> 
> Renzo Simoni, CEO of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd, expressed great delight at the breakthrough. "The breakthrough is a further important milestone in the construction of the Gotthard Base Tunnel", said Simoni.
> 
> With a ceremony on December 4, 2007, the tunnel boring machine started driving southwards from Erstfeld. Eighteen months later, and half a year earlier than planned, the tunnel boring machine reached its destination at Amsteg. Breakthrough of the tunnel was achieved with great accuracy, the deviation of 4 mm horizontally and 8 mm vertically was minimal.
> 
> AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd is very satisfied with the achievements on the construction of the Gotthard Base Tunnel. With the breakthrough between Erstfeld und Amsteg, the second-to-last of the total of five sections celebrated its breakthrough. Of the 153.5 km of the tunnel system under the Gotthard, 133 km or 87 percent have now been excavated. According to the construction programme, the final breakthrough between Sedrun and Faido will take place at the beginning of 2011.
> 
> The celebrations in the tunnel were broadcast live on Swiss television. The general public have the opportunity to view work on the Gotthard Base Tunnel on site at the Construction Site Open Day in Sedrun on Saturday, June 20, 2009.


http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/ar...durchschlag-bundesrat-leuenberger-gratuliert/


----------



## gramercy

http://www.sf.tv/sfwissen/dossier.php?docid=10238


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## hoosier

Congratulations Switzerland!!:cheers:

Your country will benefit greatly by having fast rail connections to the rest of Europe. Now it is time to extend LGV Rhin-Rhone to Basel and Zurich!!


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## gramercy

hoosier said:


> Congratulations Switzerland!!:cheers:
> 
> Your country will benefit greatly by having fast rail connections to the rest of Europe. Now it is time to extend LGV Rhin-Rhone to Basel and Zurich!!




I have a feeling that the swiss will build the so called 'Swissmetro' before that! 

They just CANT STOP digging tunnels :lol:


----------



## G5man

hoosier said:


> Congratulations Switzerland!!:cheers:
> 
> Your country will benefit greatly by having fast rail connections to the rest of Europe. Now it is time to extend LGV Rhin-Rhone to Basel and Zurich!!


And probably have German ICE lines be HS into Switzerland, along with Italian connections upto the tunnel.


----------



## gramercy

I couldnt find an SBB thread, so here it goes:

how much do you adore this loco? how much do you love SBB / the swiss for this?











just so you know, they are replacing this loco series, which was built in *1932*


----------



## DHLawrence

gramercy said:


> They just CANT STOP digging tunnels :lol:


Hey, if anyone's going to pull off a project like this, it's the Swiss!


----------



## hans280

hoosier said:


> Congratulations Switzerland!!:cheers:
> 
> Your country will benefit greatly by having fast rail connections to the rest of Europe. Now it is time to extend LGV Rhin-Rhone to Basel and Zurich!!


Ja, schoen waere es! (Transl.: Nice dream!) 

I don't think fast rail connections to the rest of Europe is in the cards for the Swiss - unfortunately. So far they have spent zillions on improving the connections between the north and the south of their own country. Ultimately those two NEAT projects (Loetschberg & Gotthard) were about providing transit routes between northern Italy and the Rhine valley to stop the alpine routes from suffocating from lorries. But...

...I'm not aware of any fast routes being built or even planned across borders. I'll be happy to learn otherwise if someone knows something. South of Lugano the Italians are in no hurry (and one can hardly blame them: they have dozens of domestic HS priorities) to link Gotthard up highspeed with Milan - or, for that matter, Loetschberg via Domodossola. The "French connection" Paris-Geneva is going to get sped up in two years' time, but through the reactivation of an old mountain railroad shaving 62 km of the route - not because of cross-border HS links. The Paris-Basle connection via the new Rhin-Rhone line that you mention will ultimately end in Mulhouse - not Basle - and the first phase of the project will extend only to Belfort. hno:

The most promising alley, in my view, is the German upgrades plus certain, short newly built stretches of the the Rhine valley railroad. Ultimately it will allow trains to travel at speeds of 200-250 km/h the entire way between Basle and Karlsruhe. (Unfortunately, this being Germany, the work takes forever...) One beautiful day the Swiss will wake up and find out that they ARE in dire need of yet another long tunnel. Because when the rail freight (and, to a lesser extent, passengers) swoop down the Rhine at top speeds and continue under the Alps at top speeds then there will be a significant bottleneck south of Basle in the Jura hills. Plans to deal with this through a new "Wisenberg" tunnel have so far faltered because Swiss parliamentary populists want to use any new railway investment to benefit the local communities rather than transit. But... they'll soon need to get cracking, or else! :speech:


----------



## Coccodrillo

As of July 1, 2009, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 134.8 km, or 88.8 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in June 2009 was 1735 m.

Work on the Ceneri Base Tunnel is proceeding at full speed. On the north portal at Camorino/Vigana, as well as on the south portal at Lugano/Vezia, preparation work is in progress. At Sigirino, following breakthrough of the window adit, final work in the logistics cavern is in progress.

Northern portal of the Ceneri Base Tunnel:


----------



## antovador

what is the change to pass from a total of 153.3 km to 151.84 km ?


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## Coccodrillo

I don't know. I posed myself the same question.


----------



## Luganese1980

Record: 56 meters in 24 hours between Erstfeld and Amsteg. 

*Erstfeld: Gabi 2 auf Rekordfahrt*
20.07.2009
_
Rasanter Endspurt der Tunnelbohrmaschine Gabi 2 zwischen Erstfeld und Amsteg: am Sonntag 19. Juli 2009 fuhr die Tunnelbohrmaschine in der Weströhre innerhalb von 24 Stunden nicht weniger als 56 Meter auf – eine einmalige Leistung beim Bau des Gotthard-Basistunnels.

Die Tunnelbohrmaschine West hat in der Zwischenzeit 6'616 m oder 92.6 % aufgefahren. Es fehlen noch rund 531 m bis zum Durchschlag, der im Herbst 2009 stattfindet._


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## gramercy

its also worth mentioning that 17 % of the ceneri is done too


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## Coccodrillo

The boring of the main tubes of the Ceneri Base Tunnel will start in spring 2010. Now they are still building some service caverns. 8 km by drill&blast to the north, 2 km drill&blast to the south, then 4 km either by drill&blast or TBM (it is still not decided).


----------



## Alexriga

I hope it opens faster than in 2017.


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## gramercy

me 2, otherwise ill have to eat my hat IF the messina bridge is on time


----------



## antovador

Coccodrillo said:


> Probably. About 3,5 km left in the eastern tube: http://www.tat-ti.ch/index.php?id=118&L=1


3.5 km to the Sedrun/Faido limit


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## Coccodrillo

Yes. From Sedrun to the limit there are maybe 700 m left.


----------



## Coccodrillo

A possible timetable for 2020.

dep = departure
arr = arrival
IC = InterCity = fast train (maybe EC EuroCity for trains to Milano)
IC = InterRegio = semi-fast local train



Code:


		IC		IR
		arr	dep	arr	dep
Basel		-	-	-	6.05
Olten		-	-	6.27	6.32
Luzern		-	-	7.05	7.18
Zürich		-	7.08	-	-
Zug		7.30	7.32	-	-
Arth Goldau	7.46	7.50	7.44	7.53

8 stops on the old line for the IR
no-stop throught the base tunnel for the IC

Bellinzona	8.39	8.41	9.56	9.58
Locarno		-	-	10.16	-
Lugano		8.53	8.55	-	-
Chiasso		?	?	-	-
Como		?	?	-	-
Milano Centrale	9.50	-	-	-

Trains are alternated: first hour IR Basel-Locarno and IC Zürich-Milano, second hour IC Basel-Milano and IR Zürich-Locarno, and so on.


----------



## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> Trains are alternated: first hour IR Basel-Locarno and IC Zürich-Milano, second hour IC Basel-Milano and IR Zürich-Locarno, and so on.


Cocco, you're IRs effectively waste 20 minutes in the stations of Luzern and Arth-Goldau. Why? Are these terminus stations where the trains have to change direction?


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## Coccodrillo

Luzern is a terminus station, but there until 2008 IR trains changed loco and restarted in 7 minutes. The problem is mainly that there are 5 lines converging in Luzern that share 3 km of double track with flat junctions (as example a train leaving Luzern for Zürich cross the Basel-Luzern track delaying a train on this line), and this makes difficult or impossible a reduction of the waiting time in Luzern.

In Arth Goldau slow trains wait up to 9 minutes, but fast trains wait only up to 6 minutes. This allows good connection, ie from a Basel-Locarno local to a Zürich-Milano fast train, or viceversa, but also to/from St Gallen. IC trains leave Arth Goldau before IR trains, this avoids conflicts (because the fast train is ahead the slow one). And as IR trains are used mainly for local traffic, it isn't a problem if they are a little bit slower.


----------



## alphorn2

Coccodrillo said:


> A possible timetable for 2020.


No need to guess, I have a copy of the actual timetable (with the note "to be adjusted for real journey times through tunnel"). Your version is almost entirely correct, off by one minute or less. No stop in Chiasso, Stop in Como at unknown time, arrival in Milano is 9:49. The journey time from Zurich to Milano is therefore cut from 3:41 to 2:41. That's not hugely impressive compared to some high speed lines, but the project's main purpose is increasing freight capacity so no high speed lines are being built to and from the tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo

Where do you have found your timetable?

The target is to arrive in Zürich and Milano just before minutes 00 or 30. That is, allow the greatest number of connections, not the shortest journey time.

I don't think this timetable is realistic, anyway. Between Milano and Lugano there will not be a new line by 2020, and as today with 1h of scheduled travel time most trains arrive some minutes late, I don't think it is possible to do this trip in 55 minutes instead of 60. Just look at train CIS 12: it is nearly always 5 to 10 minutes late (total travel time between 1h05 and 1h10).



Code:


		IC		IR
		arr	dep	arr	dep
Milano Centrale	-	7.10	-	-
Como		?	?	-	-
Chiasso		?	?	-	-
Lugano		8.05	8.08	-	-
Locarno		-	-	-	6.44
Bellinzona	8.19	8.21	7.02	7.04
...
Arth Goldau	9.09	9.13	9.07	9.16
Zug		9.28	9.30	-	-
Zürich		9.52	-	-	-
Luzern		-	-	9.42	9.54
Olten		-	-	10.27	10.32
Basel		-	-	10.55	-


----------



## Luganese1980




----------



## sebametro

Luganese1980 said:


>


does anyone have a clear picture of the Bodio south portal as i can precisely locate it on google earth


----------



## Coccodrillo

Google Maps is not up-to-date, anyway:
- Northern portal
- Southern portal


----------



## Luganese1980

sebametro said:


> does anyone have a clear picture of the Bodio south portal as i can precisely locate it on google earth












Alptransit.ch


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## gramercy

*Will the capacity south of Chiasso be enough?*

http://videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=a5c5a086-7a71-47f5-b9c3-caa00609cddc


----------



## Coccodrillo

> Will the capacity south of Chiasso be enough?


No :bash:


----------



## hans280

^^That's always the problem, isn't it? A massive increase in the capacity in one place almost always (except when the increase is designed to overcome an existing bottleneck...) creates capacity problems further down the line. 

Similarly north of the portal. If you ask me, someone in Switzerland are going to bitterly regret not having started on a new base tunnel through the Jura much earlier. (Thank you, Herr Blocher!) Once Gotthard is open there's going to be so much traffic coming through that creaky old railway between Liestal and Egerkingen.


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## Coccodrillo

Exactly.

Anyway the capacity with the two base tunnels will be higher that today and passengers trains will gain one hour.


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## hans280

^^I don't deny that. But the traffic planners need to be nimble to avoid bottlenecks where two lines (i.e. the old Gotthard route and the new) merge back into one. I guess immediately north of Gotthard the remaining capacity constraint can be resolved through the construction of Zimmerberg 2? At that point the traffic can, I think, be conducted at a steady pace even at peak hours between Zurich and Ticino. My point was that the trains will not be able to continue apace further north on the line Zurich-Olten-Basle. There, the Jura mountains will remain a considerable bottleneck. 

I found a presentation where an ingeneering professor gives his assessment of where the future bottlenecks will be. Sorry for not cut-and-pasting the relevant exhibit (I had a technical problem), it is on page 30: 
http://litep.epfl.ch/webdav/site/litep/shared/05_Prof_U_Weidmann.pdf


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## hans280

^^Now, of course, comes the most frustrating wait. The raw drilling finished on all major sections except one. From now on we'll be lucky to get 0.6% progress per month. After that there'll be a big celebration of the accomplished connection between Uri and Ticino, following which... it will take years and years before they have converted the raw tunnel to finished product, then laid the tracks, then done the signalling... Hum. Things take time. But, I so look forward to taking the train through that mountain! :cheers:


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## K_

hans280 said:


> ^^Now, of course, comes the most frustrating wait. The raw drilling finished on all major sections except one. From now on we'll be lucky to get 0.6% progress per month. After that there'll be a big celebration of the accomplished connection between Uri and Ticino, following which... it will take years and years before they have converted the raw tunnel to finished product, then laid the tracks, then done the signalling... Hum. Things take time. But, I so look forward to taking the train through that mountain! :cheers:


It might go faster than you think. The main breaktrough is expected for november this year. They will also start installing track and signaling in those sections that are completely finished this year. Right now it looks like the tunnel wil be finished for the Dec 2016 timetable change.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

This will be one of the most lengthy construction threads here on SSC! :yes:


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## Coccodrillo

> Innengewölbe Oströhre Los 151 Erstfeld in Angriff genommen
> Das Innengewölbe der Oströhre im Los 151 Erstfeld (Länge 6.8 km) ist in Angriff genommen worden.
> 
> Am 09.02.2010 ist der erste Block des Innengewölbes der Oströhre im Los 151 Erstfeld betoniert worden. Insgesamt sind im Einspurtunnel rund 680 Blöcke à 10 m Länge zu betonieren (siehe beiliegendes Bild). Das 380 m lange Verzweigungsbauwerk wird in einer zweiten Phase verkleidet.
> 
> Mit den 6 Schalungen (3 Schalungseinheiten) werden nach der Anlaufphase im Regelfall pro Tag 50 - 60 m Einspurtunnel betoniert. Im beiliegenden pdf-file ist der Ablauf der Gewölbebetonarbeiten einer Schalungseinheit schematisch dargestellt.


From http://www.agn-amsteg.ch/aktuelles/detailinfo/article/45/7.html

In short: the firts 10 metre block out of 680 of the eastern tube in the Erstfeld section has been fileld with concrete on February 9th. At 50 to 60 per day for each tube the work may be completed in 4 to 6 months.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
Danke sehr for the link but you forgot to post the picture...:nono:


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## flierfy

Coccodrillo said:


> In short: the first 10 metre block out of 680 of the eastern tube in the Erstfeld section has been filled with *beton* on February 9th. At 50 to 60 per day for each tube the work may be completed in 4 to 6 months.


What's this? You need to be a bit more concrete at this point.


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## Coccodrillo

Sorry, I have written that word in French. With "beton" I meant "concrete".

The blue structure that runs on rail shown in the photo is used to built a 10 m section of concrete lining. There are a total of 680 bocks of 10 m each for each tube of the Erstfeld section.


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## Luganese1980

For those who understand Italian, here the first part of the documentary "Il sogno infranto" (which means "The broken dream"), about life in the tunnel and out of the tunnel. 

*Il sogno infranto*

(Swiss Television, February 18th 2010).

Part two will follow.


----------



## Luganese1980

> Part two will follow.


*Il sogno infranto - II*


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## panda80

Status of work on Ceneri and Gotthard:

As of March 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 143.8 km, or 94.7 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in February 2010 was 1318 m.

Of the total of 40.19 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of February 2010, 7,673 m, or 19.1%, had been excavated.


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## Coccodrillo

Boring of the main tunnels of the Ceneri Base Tunnel will start in October 2010.

http://info.rsi.ch/it/home/networks...bd9e-13762a2faaeb&date=&stream=low#tabEdition


----------



## Coccodrillo

> *Ceneri Base Tunnel: Blast-driving the main tunnel from Sigirino begins
> 
> 10.03.2010
> 
> Today, Wednesday, March 10, 2010, the main work for driving the Ceneri Base Tunnel was started with an official first blast in the installations cavern at Sigirino. *
> 
> „With the start of blasting, the actual driving work for the Ceneri Base Tunnel has now also begun“, commented Renzo Simoni, Chief Executive Officer of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. „This brings the vision of a flat route through the Alps closer all the time.”
> 
> Drilling and blasting are being performed by the Condotte Cossi Consortium. The Condotte Cossi Consortium is composed of the companies Società Italiana per Condotte d’Acqua S.p.A. (Rome), Cossi S.p.A. (Sondrio) and Cossi SA (Lugano).
> 
> In the next few months, installations that are needed for driving the two railway tunnels of the Ceneri Base Tunnel will be put into place. The construction site should be ready for full-scale driving in the autumn of 2010.
> 
> Excavation, support and lining work should be finished in 2016. The railway infrastructure will then be installed. Commercial operation of the Ceneri Base Tunnel with scheduled train services is planned to start at the end of 2019.
> 
> With a length of 15.4 km between the north portal at Vigana, near Camorino, and the south portal at Vezia, near Lugano, after the Gotthard and Lötschberg Base Tunnels the Ceneri Base Tunnel is the third-largest tunnel project in Switzerland. Only with the Ceneri Base Tunnel as the continuation and extension of the Gotthard Base Tunnel will the new Gotthard line become a continuous flat route for freight traffic through Switzerland.
> 
> *Construction status of the Gotthard Base Tunnel*
> 
> In total, almost 95% of the approximately 151.8 kilometres of shafts, passages and tunnels of the Gotthard Base Tunnel have now been excavated. The first final breakthrough of the 57-kilometres-long Gotthard Base Tunnel is scheduled to take place in the east tunnel in the autumn of 2010. To reach this point, a further 3 km remain for the miners to excavate between Sedrun and Faido.
> 
> The drive in the west tunnel is around 400 m behind the east tunnel. At the end of last week, the tunnel boring machine in the west tunnel encountered a geological interference zone. Following a rock fall, driving has had to be temporarily suspended. At present, the measures for probing through the fallen rock area are being defined. Driving is expected to be interrupted for up to 4 weeks. The rock fall will have no effect on the time schedule for commissioning of the Gotthard Base Tunnel at the end of 2017.


http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/ar...no-beginnt-der-sprengvortrieb-am-haupttunnel/


----------



## panda80

> Gotthard approaches final breakthrough, Ceneri starts main drive
> 
> 31.03.2010
> 
> The AlpTransit Gotthard project is on course. In the Gotthard Base Tunnel, the final breakthrough will take place in autumn 2010. In mid-March 2010, the main drive of the Ceneri Base Tunnel began. At the premiere of the AlpTransit annual film for 2009 on March 31, 2010, Renzo Simoni, CEO of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd., gave information about progress on construction of Switzerland’s largest-ever construction project.
> 
> To date, almost 95% of the total of approximately 151.8 kilometres of shafts, passages and tunnels of the Gotthard Base Tunnel have been excavated. Civil engineering construction, concreting, and lining work in the Sedrun North, Amsteg and Bodio sections are complete. Final breakthrough in the east tunnel between Faido and Sedrun is scheduled to take place in the autumn of 2010. Up to that point, the tunnel boring machines must cut a further approximately 2.5 kilometres. As from mid-2010, installation of the railway infrastructure systems will start in the west tunnel at Bodio. The systems include the railway tracks, catenaries, telecom systems and electric power supply. To handle the logistics of installing the railway infrastructure systems, in the last few months the installations site was set up at Biasca, a few kilometres to the south of the south portal. Assembly workshops, a concrete production plant, offices and accommodation for workers have been erected on the site.
> 
> Large, chimney-like hollow space
> In the west tunnel of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, approximately 600 metres behind the drive in the east tunnel, the tunnel boring machine has been stationary for around four weeks on account of a rockfall. During this period, test bores have been performed to determine the size of the hollow space that has formed, as well as the length of the interference zone. The bores have shown that the interference zone is much larger than was assumed in the first days after it was encountered. The hollow space of the interference zone that has been investigated extends in the form of a chimney to a height of at least 40 metres above the tunnel invert. The complete volume of the hollow space is estimated to be approximately 3,000 cubic metres. A substantial part of the hollow space that has been investigated is still filled with broken rock. The length of the interference zone is between 6 and 10 metres.
> 
> To enable the tunnel boring machine to resume driving, in the next few weeks the loose area in front of the cutting head will be solidified with cement through a grouting tunnel from the east tunnel which runs parallel to the west tunnel. This will take about three months. The interruption in driving will have no effect on the time schedule or on the commissioning of the Gotthard Base Tunnel at the end of 2017.
> 
> Progress on the Ceneri Base Tunnel
> On the Ceneri, a milestone was achieved with the first blast at the Sigirino intermediate heading in mid-March 2010. The miners were given the go-ahead for the main drives to the north and south. From the north portal at Vigana, near Camorino, driving is proceeding under the A2 motorway. Driving in the opposite direction from the area of the south portal at Vezia will begin in mid-April 2010.
> 
> Annual film 2009 – 35 minutes of tunnel construction on DVD
> The progress of construction on the Gotthard and Ceneri base tunnels is documented by film teams commissioned by AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. Each year this results in an annual film, which, in about 30 minutes, documents the most important milestones on the NRLA construction sites of the Gotthard and Ceneri, as well as the progress of the miners. The annual film for 2009 is now available in three language versions (German, Italian, English). The DVD, which costs CHF 30, can be ordered on the Internet (http://www.alptransit.ch/?id=66) or purchased directly at the AlpTransit information centres in Erstfeld and Pollegio or the offices of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. in Lucerne, Altdorf, Sedrun, Faido or Bellinzona. The DVD is also available at the RailShop in Lucerne railway station.
> 
> Review of 2009: Work on the Gotthard
> 
> * In both tunnels of the Erstfeld section, the tunnel boring machines broke through to the Amsteg section. On the overground section to the north, work began on various structures such as bridges, underpasses and culverts.
> * The Amsteg-Sedrun section is ready for installation of the railway infrastructure.
> * In the Sedrun section, the drives in both tunnels to the south are achieving daily advance rates of 6-7 metres. Fitting out of the multifunction station is in progress. The north section is ready for installation of the railway infrastructure.
> * In the Faido section, the northbound TBM drives crossed the boundary between the cantons of Ticino and Grisons in September 2009. The final work on the multifunction station is being performed at the same time as driving continues.
> * The west tunnel of the Bodio section is ready for installation of the railway infrastructure. The east tunnel continues to serve for supply to, and disposal from, the construction works in the Faido section.
> * On the overground section to the south, the groundbreaking ceremony for the new Swiss Federal Railways control centre at Pollegio took place at the end of November 2009. At Biasca, the installations site for the railway infrastructure was set up.
> 
> Review of 2009: Work on the Ceneri
> 
> * At the north portal near Vigana, work began on tunnelling under the A2 motorway.
> * At the intermediate heading at Sigirino, the underground installations cavern was constructed and the installations site for the main construction lot was prepared.
> * At the south portal at Vezia, the preparatory work on the construction site pit was completed.


The article is from the official site, www.alptransit.ch


----------



## Coccodrillo

*Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri

06.04.2010*

As of April 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 144.8 km, or 95.4 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in March 2010 was 1008 m. 

Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of March 2010, 7,731 m, or 19.4%, had been excavated.


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## Coccodrillo

The 28th report of Alptransit works has been published, but only in German, French and Italian.

http://www.news-service.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/message/de/32527

(clic NEAT-Standbericht 2009/II, Rapport d'étape NLFA II/2009 or Rapporto sullo stato dei lavori NFTA II/2009 following the language)

I haven't read it yet but if I find something important I will translate it. These reports are usually a summary of what happened in the last 6 months.


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## Coccodrillo

A new colour has been added to the image showing the progression of works: yellow, to show the parts ready to receive the tracks.










(the image is updated every month)


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## Coccodrillo

The annual film is for the first time also published in English: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/service/dvds-alptransit-gotthard/


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

^^Thank you very much for all the information you post here. kay: 

BTW: Interesting colour order for the construction progress: 
red-->green-->yellow


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## Luganese1980

Final breakthrough: *October 15th 2010* (very likely)



> *Galleria di base del San Gottardo: Il record del mondo è previsto per il 15 ottobre 2010*
> 
> 09.04.2010
> 
> Se tutto andrà secondo i piani, la caduta del primo diaframma principale della Galleria di base del San Gottardo avverrà il 15 ottobre 2010 nella canna est tra Faido e Sedrun. Quel giorno la galleria ferroviaria più lunga del mondo (57 km) diverrà realtà. Per raggiungere questo significativo traguardo i minatori devono ancora scavare circa 2.4 km di roccia.
> 
> Renzo Simoni, Presidente della direzione di AlpTransit San Gottardo SA, si rallegra della grande conquista prevista per l’autunno. “Al momento, tutti gli indicatori confermano la data del 15 ottobre 2010. Non possiamo però escludere un ritardo, a causa ad esempio del concretizzarsi di ostacoli inattesi“.
> 
> alptransit.ch


----------



## gramercy

http://videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=d3d04644-0725-4f2e-a959-6e5f67e0ccde


----------



## gramercy

http://videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=5c94f735-7b9d-43be-885f-bfd543d67f28


----------



## Coccodrillo

> Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
> 
> 04.05.2010
> 
> As of May 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 145.4 km, or 95.8 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in April 2010 was 604 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of April 2010, 7,880 m, or 19.8%, had been excavated.


Faido West TBM is still blocked in the difficult zone and is now 1,2 km behind the East TBM. The latter has just 1,6 km (one mile) to bore.


----------



## crb68

i was wondering does anyone know where to get detailed information about the geology and conditions encountered along the tunneling process ?? would be greatly appreciated


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Faido West TBM is still blocked in the difficult zone and is now 1,2 km behind the East TBM. The latter has just 1,6 km (one mile) to bore.


That is a bit odd, as you'd expect both TBMs to encounter more or less the same geological conditions. Both bores are not that far apart...


----------



## Coccodrillo

@K: Also in the Amsteg section one TBM encountered a difficult zone and the other don't.

@crb68: about the geology, other asking directly AlpTransit AG or searching on tis website, you can try to ask the three associations of entreprises that are boring the tunnel.

http://www.alptransit.ch/ (contractor, subsidiary of SBB CFF FFS)
http://www.transco-sedrun.ch/ (Sedrun)
http://www.agn-amsteg.ch/ (Amsteg-Erstfeld)
http://www.tat-ti.ch/ (Bodio-Faido)

This one is the group that will lay tracks and railway infrastructure: http://www.transtec-gotthard.ch/ (it doesn't do civil engineering)


----------



## crb68

Coccodrillo said:


> @K: Also in the Amsteg section one TBM encountered a difficult zone and the other don't.
> 
> @crb68: about the geology, other asking directly AlpTransit AG or searching on tis website, you can try to ask the three associations of entreprises that are boring the tunnel.
> 
> http://www.alptransit.ch/ (contractor, subsidiary of SBB CFF FFS)
> http://www.transco-sedrun.ch/ (Sedrun)
> http://www.agn-amsteg.ch/ (Amsteg-Erstfeld)
> http://www.tat-ti.ch/ (Bodio-Faido)
> 
> This one is the group that will lay tracks and railway infrastructure: http://www.transtec-gotthard.ch/ (it doesn't do civil engineering)


Thank you !! greatly appreciated


----------



## antovador

it's pretty much better to change some colours legends of the tunnel to this.

yellow for "excavation and lining accomplished" and
green for "ready for installation of railway technology"


----------



## MarcVD

Is it already known what will happen with the existing line and summit
tunnel once the base tunnel will be in revenue service ?


----------



## Coccodrillo

No. But I have seen a project for the 2020 timetable. It shows something similar to today, with one InterCity/EuroCity per hour via the base tunnel and one InterRegio via the old line.

Another confirmed point is that the old railway tunnel will be used by shuttle trains carrying road vehicles during the clousure of the road tunnel for update and maintenance planned around 2020.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> No. But I have seen a project for the 2020 timetable. It shows something similar to today, with one InterCity/EuroCity per hour via the base tunnel and one InterRegio via the old line.


And in preparation for this the IRs have already received the Panorama coaches.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Panorama coaches have been in use on the Gotthard line since their construction. They are and were used also on the Arlberg line.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Panorama coaches have been in use on the Gotthard line since their construction. They are and were used also on the Arlberg line.


I know. But it used to be that the ICs had the Panorama coaches. Before the last timetable change you had three categories of trains on the Gotthard: The Cisalpino trains using the infamous ETR sets, loco hauled IC Trains that were somewhat slower, and loco hauled IR trains that had more stops than the IC trains and thus were even slower. The IC trains had the Panorama coaches.

SBB doesn't like irregular timetables however, and wanted the IC trains to run in the same pattern als the EC/Cisalpino trains. They also wanted to establish a service pattern that anticipates the opening of the new base tunnel.
So now the service is:
- ICN have replaced IC, and they and the EC are run using a mixture of different types of high speed capable trainsets. The EC services are those that used to be run by Cisalpino. They are still run with ETR470 sets, but many of these services is currently are currently doubled with an ICN service. All ICN/EC services now run in the same pattern.
- IR services: These are the only loco hauled trains, and they are slated to remain on the old line. They received the Panorama coaches. Last time I traveled back from Lugano I wasn't in a hurry and took one of these trains. They're a great an relaxing way to travel...
The end result is that the IR takes about half an hour longer than the IC, which is very convenient for the integration in the rest of the network at both ends.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some infos:
- the east artificial part at Erstfeld will be completed at the end of this year
- the west artificial part mid 2011
- mid 2011 the grade separated junction shown below will be opened, it lies between Altdorf (left) and Erstfeld (right)
- tracklaying here will not start befor mid 2011, when the junction will be activated (only the branch to Erstfeld and the old line)
- there will be three tracks from Altdorf to the portal (5 km) and four near the portal
- there will a new 7 km line south of the southern portal, partly with 3 tracks
- this will allow passenger trains to overtake freight trains, these will run in groups
- to the south there will be two junction
-- one probably single track and certainly flat north of Biasca
-- one south of Biasca (again probably flat, but for two tracks)
- Faido West TBM is still blocked, it may restart in July, it has still 2700 m to bore



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The artificial section under construction looking north. The bridge and the foothpath it carries will be closed this year.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Some infos:
> - the east artificial part at Erstfeld will be completed at the end of this year


What do you actually mean with "artificial section"? It's not as if there are any "natural sections" to the project.


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## Coccodrillo

Artificial tunnels are "boxes" like the one in the photo, built at ground level and then covered, or shallow cuttings excavated and covered later (like some urban tunnels for metro and roads).

Natural tunnels are tunnels bored under the ground, without access from the surface except at one end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel


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## Coccodrillo

Photos from Erstfeld and Amsteg: http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?106,4842035


----------



## Coccodrillo

> As of June 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 146.1 km, or 96.2 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in May 2010 was 694 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of May 2010, 8,101 m, or 20.4%, had been excavated.


http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/article/2010/06/02/bezeichnung/


----------



## panda80

from alptransit.ch:

Gotthard Base Tunnel: Installation of railway infrastructure systems begins

25.06.2010

At the south portal of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, between Bodio and Faido, installation of the railway infrastructure systems has begun in the west tunnel. By 2012, the approximately 16-kilometres-long section will be completely equipped with the railway infrastructure including railway track, catenary, electric power supply, telecommunications, and safety systems. The Gotthard Base Tunnel will be ready for scheduled train services in 2017.

The first section of the tunnel to have the railway infrastructure installed is the Faido-Bodio West section. Test runs at speeds of up to 230 kph will take place in this approximately 16-kilometres-long section from 2013. These will allow the complex interaction of the railway infrastructure systems in the Gotthard Base Tunnel to be extensively tested. The logistical base for installation of the railway infrastructure in this section is the Surface Installations Site South at Biasca, which has been built on an area of 70,000 square metres. A further requirement is construction of the approximately 4.5-kilometres-long section of the Open Section South between the surface installations site and the tunnel portal at Bodio.

Northern installation to start in autumn 2011
Installation of the railway infrastructure systems also from the north portal will begin in 2011. The Erstfeld-Amsteg-Sedrun East section will be the first to receive the railway infrastructure systems. For this purpose the Railway Infrastructure Systems Surface Installations Site North will be built at Rynächt as from autumn 2010.

Rail-based installation
The first installations of railway infrastructure in the Gotthard Base Tunnel are therefore taking place in parallel with completion of the concrete shell in other sections of the tunnel. Installation and commissioning will take a total of eight years. The only effectively available access points for bringing the material into the tunnel are the two portals. „The unprecedented tunnel length of 57 kilometres and the restricted space conditions limit access for tyred vehicles and present a major challenge“, states Oliver Bratschi, Executive Director Railway Engineering for the tunnel owner, AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. Virtually all transportation therefore takes place by rail from the two main surface installation sites in the north and south. As first railway infrastructure installations, cables will be pulled in and the ballastless trackbed laid.

Coordination of more than 1000 technical interfaces
At peak times, more than 700 people will be involved in installing the railway infrastructure. The complexity is high, detailed coordination of everyone involved is essential. „More than 1000 technical interfaces must be mutually coordinated to make trouble-free rail traffic in the Gotthard Base Tunnel possible, says Rolf Brunner, Chairman of the Construction Committee of Transtec Gotthard.

AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd.
AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd.is the constructor of the Gotthard axis of the New Rail Link through the Alps with base tunnels through the Gotthard and Ceneri. Established in 1998 as a subsidiary of Swiss Federal Railways, the company now employs around 140 people at its headquarters in Lucerne and its branches in ALtd.orf, Sedrun, Faido and Bellinzona. The work contract „Railway Infrastructure Gotthard Base Tunnel“ with a value of CHF 1.7 billion is one of the world’s largest contracts in the field of railway infrastructure and the largest work contract of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd.

Transtec Gotthard
Transtec Gotthard AG has been appointed general contractor by AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd.for installation of the railway infrastructure systems in the Gotthard Base Tunnel. The consortium comprises the companies Alpiq InTec AG, Alcatel-Lucent/Thales RSS (as a consortium), Alpine-Bau and Balfour Beatty Rail. As four equal partners, the companies contribute to the consortium their competences in the areas of railtrack, catenary, railway safety, railway and tunnel control systems, telecommunications, electric power supply, logistics, planning and execution.


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## Coccodrillo

> As of July 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 146.6 km, or 96.6 %, had been excavated. The total amount driven in June 2010 was 531 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of June 2010, 8,344m, or 21%, had been excavated.


http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/article/2010/07/03/bezeichnung/


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## Coccodrillo

Second-hand tunneling equipment on sale: http://tat.ebrick.net/usedcached/it/publishusedequipmentmaincategories_1.html


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## Coccodrillo

A short video of the existing railway: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/multimedia/video/Tunnel_vision.html?cid=999300


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## czm3

I know that the Swiss are sticking to their schedule due to funding issues, but why does it really take so long? I understand that their schedules are extremely conservative so they wont disappoint their constituents but seriously? With the tunnel bored out, what will they still have to do? Add a liner, lay tracks, and install signalling/safety systems. I would think they could get that done in 18 months not 5 or 6 years....


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## Coccodrillo

There is very limited space on intermediate access points (that's also why Faido and Sedrun section excavated only a small part of the tunnel), so tracks have to be supplied from the two portals. And as these are carried by train on a (two) narrow single track tunnel(s) the train has first to go from the outside base into the tunnel, discharge the tracks, fix it with beton (like in other modern long tunnels there is no ballast), go back and start again. And from the base until the end of the half tunnel each train has to equip there are up to 30 km/20 miles, so the trip will probably require up to 45 minutes (at least going inside the tunnel, there will be no signaling system telling where the track ends, so trains will have to travel by sight).

The Lötschberg Base Tunnel (35 km/20 miles) has been completed in a little more than two years, so four years for the Gotthard twice as long are comprehensible (then there are 2 or 3 years as buffer fo mask eventual delays).


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## czm3

Thank you for answering my question. This is undoubtibly one of the coolest construction projects in the world! I wish the US could develop the discipline and long term vision to develop stuff like this....


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## Coccodrillo

In the US railways are privately owned, mostly not electrified and nearly without passenger traffic (except around big cities). Freight trains runs with more locomotives also thanks to the couplings so 2%-3% grades are common, instead in Europe the states can support big infrastructure projects also if they can't be directly economically profitable.

I hope your planned high-speed lines becoem reaility somewhere int he future...


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> Freight trains runs with more locomotives also thanks to the couplings so 2%-3% grades are common


The first major railway crossing of the Alps is Brenner Pass, on summit level (1370 m or so). The other railway crossings were the first long rail tunnels, in late 19th century - Sankt Gotthard Tunnel, Mont Cenis Tunnel, Simplon Tunnel.

What are the ruling grades of the existing Brenner Pass track and the approaches to Gotthard and Simplon passes? And what shall be the ruling grade for the Gotthard Base Tunnel and Ceneri route?


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## Coccodrillo

Alll existing main transalpine railways have gradients between 25‰ and 28‰ except the Fréjus that reach 33‰. The Simplon-Lötschberg line with the new Lötschberg tunnel has now steep ramps only on the southern side, so a southbound trains has to climb not more than 15‰ grades, but has to afford a 27‰ descent. That's why the new tunnel, being single track, is used mainly in the southbound direction where trains are usually heavier.

The new Gotthard railway will have a maxumum grade of 12‰ (8‰ in tunnels), but as only the Gotthard, Cenery and half of the Zimmerberg base tunnels have been built the 12‰ grade is not surpassed only on the main trunk (*) Basel-Bellinzona and on the Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno-Novara/Milano single track branch. The other branch (carrying two thirds of freight traffic) Bellinzona-Lugano-Milano has short (3 or 4 km) section at 17‰. There is a long term to lengthen the Ceneri base tunnel to increase capacity for passenger traffic and to reduce gradients to 12‰. The new Ceneri tunnel would then be around 40 km long.

(*) the Bozberg access line, one of two with the Hauenstein, reaches 1.4%


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## Coccodrillo

Alll existing main transalpine railways have gradients between 25‰ and 28‰ except the Fréjus that reach 33‰. The Simplon-Lötschberg line with the new Lötschberg tunnel has now steep ramps only on the southern side, so a southbound trains has to climb not more than 15‰ grades, but has to afford a 27‰ descent. That's why the new tunnel, being single track, is used mainly in the southbound direction where trains are usually heavier.

The new Gotthard railway will have a maxumum grade of 12‰ (8‰ in tunnels), but as only the Gotthard, Cenery and half of the Zimmerberg base tunnels have been built the 12‰ grade is not surpassed only on the main trunk (*) Basel-Bellinzona and on the Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno-Novara/Milano single track branch. The other branch (carrying two thirds of freight traffic) Bellinzona-Lugano-Milano has short (3 or 4 km) section at 17‰. There is a long term to lengthen the Ceneri base tunnel to increase capacity for passenger traffic and to reduce gradients to 12‰. The new Ceneri tunnel would then be around 40 km long.

(*) the Bozberg access line, one of two with the Hauenstein, reaches 14‰


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## thun

chornedsnorkack said:


> The first major railway crossing of the Alps is Brenner Pass, on summit level (1370 m or so).


Wrong, the first mountain mainline buildt is the Semmering crossing of the k.u.k. Südbahn (Vienna - Trieste), opened in 1854. Its less known because it lies within Austria and isn't one of the mayor passes (for both railway and cars).


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## Coccodrillo

Only ten metres left: a cavern is under construction on the northern (Sedrun) side to allow the disassembly of the TBM. Next week the TBM will bore another eight metres, but for the last two we will have to wait the 15 and the two days of celebrations.

http://info.rsi.ch/home/channels/in...e/2010/09/30-AlpTransit-meno-dieci-metriCi-si


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## gramercy

who would have thought...

i remember reading about it in the 90s when it was only an idea


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> Only ten metres left:


How much is left of the other tube?


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## Coccodrillo

2.2 km because the TBM was stopped for 6 months because of a geological problem. This TBM will arrive around february 2011.


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> In the US railways are privately owned, mostly not electrified and nearly without passenger traffic (except around big cities). Freight trains runs with more locomotives also thanks to the couplings so 2%-3% grades are common, instead in Europe the states can support big infrastructure projects also if they can't be directly economically profitable.


The longest tunnel in Americas is Mount Macdonald Tunnel at 14,7 km, under Selkirk Mountains. It was built in 4 years, from 1984 to 1988, to replace old Connaught Tunnel opened in 1916 (which also was longest in Americas).

Building Mount Macdonald Tunnel is said to have improved the ruling grade of Canadian Pacific and eliminated need of bank engines for freight.

Are there any crossings, in USA, of Cascades, Sierra Nevada or Rockies, where a base tunnel of feasible length would result in significant improvement of ruling grade for freight?


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## Coccodrillo

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any crossings, in USA, of Cascades, Sierra Nevada or Rockies, where a base tunnel of feasible length would result in significant improvement of ruling grade for freight?


Certainly yes, but that would require certainly more tunnels as the Rocky Mountains are wider than the Alps (but the latter are slightly higher and maybe steeper). This may be make the use of bank engine cheaper than building and running a long tunnel (that itself would require new and electric locomotives as using diesels would be impossible).

A train that actually needs three engines to cross the Alps in future will need two of them, and maybe only one if all the access lines will be built with low gradient.


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## mgk920

chornedsnorkack said:


> The longest tunnel in Americas is Mount Macdonald Tunnel at 14,7 km, under Selkirk Mountains. It was built in 4 years, from 1984 to 1988, to replace old Connaught Tunnel opened in 1916 (which also was longest in Americas).
> 
> Building Mount Macdonald Tunnel is said to have improved the ruling grade of Canadian Pacific and eliminated need of bank engines for freight.
> 
> Are there any crossings, in USA, of Cascades, Sierra Nevada or Rockies, where a base tunnel of feasible length would result in significant improvement of ruling grade for freight?


BNSF's ex GN Cascade Tunnel could potentially make use of one, the 2.2% grades leading up to it are not all that long. OTOH, the former GN mainline also has lengthy sections of 2.2% in western Montana, the main section of which crosses the Rockies at the continental divide without a tunnel, so no real advantage would be gained with a base tunnel in the Cascades. As for Cascade Tunnel, I would ream out its paralleling 'pioneer' tunnel (used for ease of access during its construction in the late 1920s) and use it for a second main track.

Mike


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## Coccodrillo

It is obvious that diesel traction limit the capacity of the (few, compared to Europe) North American railway tunnels. But the main limit on these north american railways are the tunnels, the steep grades, or the single track sections? I have read that these tunnels only allow two or three trains per hour because they have to be closed to allow fans to clear the air. Electrification may be useful.


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> Electrification may be useful.


Cascade Tunnel WAS electrified.

What about Tehachapi Pass? Nasty climb, at 2,52 %, yet reasonably short, crossing summit at just 1156 m or so. And connects Los Angeles with Central Valley. Could a base tunnel help here?


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## Coccodrillo

The most curvy and sinuous part of the railway west of the pass, where I imagine there are also steep slopes, is around 32 km/20 miles as the crow flies. The mountain part from around Bakersfield to around Mojave is around 57 km/35 miles long. How long and steep are the access ramps? On the Gotthard there are 40 km of continuous 2.7% ramp.

The Gotthard base tunnel is costing around 9 billions CHF, around the same in USD, I don't know if a private company can afford it as the return of investment would be too long. The Channel tunnel company had and still has big financial difficulties.


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## mgk920

Coccodrillo said:


> The most curvy and sinuous part of the railway west of the pass, where I imagine there are also steep slopes, is around 32 km/20 miles as the crow flies. The mountain part from around Bakersfield to around Mojave is around 57 km/35 miles long. How long and steep are the access ramps? On the Gotthard there are 40 km of continuous 2.7% ramp.
> 
> The Gotthard base tunnel is costing around 9 billions CHF, around the same in USD, I don't know if a private company can afford it as the return of investment would be too long. The Channel tunnel company had and still has big financial difficulties.


Tehachapi Pass could possibly make use of a base tunnel as the approaches are very curvy (including an über-popular with the railfans 'loop' section) and steep. I'm not that sure on Cajon Pass, mainly regarding the altitude of the 'inland' side.

Yes, the current traffic throughput limit of those mountain tunnels in North America does relate to how long it takes to change their air after a train passes, usually 20-30 minutes depending on length. The new Mount MacDonald tunnel has a midpoint door that allows for faster ventilation.

Also, yes, Cascade tunnel WAS electrified when it opened in 1929, that was due to the use of steam locomotives on the rest of the North American railroad network at the time and the copious amounts of emissions that they produce - the tunnel would not have been possible without it. In fact, the tunnel that the current Cascade tunnel replaced was also electrified with locomotive changeout yards by each portal. When diesel locomotives took over completely from steam in the 1950s, the then Great Northern Railway studied the electrification (it only ran the fairly short distance from Skykomish to Wenatchee, WA) and determined that it would be most cost-effective to drop the 'wire' and ventilate the tunnel. This was done in 1956.

More recently, during the fuel price spike in 2007 and 2008, GN successor BNSF ('Burlington Northern Santa Fe') studied a wholesale electrification of their entire railroad, but no action had been taken by the time oil prices returned to a more 'normal' level.

A serious study into the final couple of decades of the Milwaukee Road will yield lots of interesting numbers on the economics of mainline electrification, which they made extensive use of in the northwestern USA (in addition to the very sad and sordid story of upper management incompetence that led to the company's demise).

I also anticipate some very serious studies of mainline electrification in the near-term future as California's emissions laws become progressively more strict. Already, diesel-electric/battery hybrid switching locomotives are coming into common use by both BNSF and Union Pacific in the Los Angeles area due to those rules.

I know that this is drifting off-topic for the Gotthard Base Tunnel, but nothing like this exists in a vacuum and other examples are well worth studying when planning your own course of action.

Mike


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## earthJoker

Gotthard Base Tunnel could be opened one year earlier:
A new report has stated that it would be possible to open the new tunnel a year earlier. The SBB and the building consortium Transtec have been informed. The decision is not yet made.

http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/schweiz/gotthardtunnel_ein_jahr_frueher_fertig_1.7788259.html
(Sorry only in German)


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## Frank J. Sprague

chornedsnorkack said:


> Are there any crossings, in USA, of Cascades, Sierra Nevada or Rockies, where a base tunnel of feasible length would result in significant improvement of ruling grade for freight?


This probably sounds rather nerdish, but I have used Google Earth to scout potential tunnel routes. In the Blue Mountains of Oregon a ten mile tunnel would eliminate 26 miles of twisting and climbing over the grade, and at Stampede Pass in the Cascades a 4.5 mile tunnel would connect the BNSF line with the abandoned Milwaukee line (presently a trail).


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## mgk920

Frank J. Sprague said:


> This probably sounds rather nerdish, but I have used Google Earth to scout potential tunnel routes. In the Blue Mountains of Oregon a ten mile tunnel would eliminate 26 miles of twisting and climbing over the grade, and at Stampede Pass in the Cascades a 4.5 mile tunnel would connect the BNSF line with the abandoned Milwaukee line (presently a trail).


In the rawest sense, the current BNSF Cascade Tunnel can be thought of as a 'base' tunnel that replaced a truly torturous line to an older, higher altitude tunnel - the line to that prior tunnel included MASSIVE lengths of showsheds, the maintenance of which were fast draining BNSF predecessor Great Northern's treasury.

Mike


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## Coccodrillo

There are many long low-grade tunnels planned in Europe. Five are planned, two under construction and one (well, not really) in operation, plus a pure high-speed tunnel in Spain, the Channel tunnel and a road tunnel, each at least 25 km long.

All of them but the last three are planned, or have been built, to reduce grades and shorten travel times for passengers.



> Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
> 
> 01.10.2010
> 
> As of October 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 149.1 km, or 98.2%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in September 2010 was 1118 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of September 2010, 9466m, or 23.8%, had been excavated.


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> There are many long low-grade tunnels planned in Europe. Five are planned, two under construction and one (well, not really) in operation, plus a pure high-speed tunnel in Spain, the Channel tunnel and a road tunnel, each at least 25 km long.
> 
> All of them but the last three are planned, or have been built, to reduce grades and shorten travel times for passengers.


Could you list the other tunnel under construction (Gotthard is one) and the road tunnel?

Rockies are high and wide, but that is precisely why long tunnels are less necessarily. Climbing the flat Great Plains reaches high altitude without steep gradients - in Wyoming, Sherman Hill is avoided and water divide crossed at maximum grade as low as 0,84 %. But steeper, 2,2 % slopes (as well as nasty climate and snowfall) are encountered crossing Sierra Nevada via Donner Pass.

Would a Donner Pass base tunnel be useful?


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## Coccodrillo

Opened:
- Lötschberg Base, 35 km, Alps, Switzerland (but quite useless regarding gradients as there is still the Simplon ramp)
- Guadarrama, 28 km, Sierra de Guadarrama, pure HSL
- Eurotunnel/Channel Tunnel, 50 km, undersea, United Kingdom-France
- Laerdal, 24.5 km, Scandinavian mountains, Norway, road

Under construction:
- Gotthard Base, 57 km, Alps, Switzerland
- Pajares, 25 km, Cordillera Cantabrica, Spain (+ 20 km of others tunnels, that is 45 km underground out of 50 km of new line)

Advanced planning stage (exploratory tunnels and acces shafts), but construction still uncertain
- Brenner Base, 55 km, Alps, Austria-Italy
- Fréjus Base, 57 km, Alps, France-Italy (also known as Mont Cenis Base, Mont d'Ambin Base, or Lyon-Turin)

Planned
- Semmering Base, 27 km, Alps, Austria
- Koralm, 27 km, Alps, Austria
- Traversée Centrale, around 40 km, Pyrenees, Spain-France (the less likely to be built in the near future)
- Gibraltar tunnel, 40 km, undersea, Spain-Morocco (even less likely but an exploratory tunnel has already been done)

(the adjective "base" is used where there is already a "summit" tunnel, even if on the Brenner there is no summit tunnel, but the new is called "base", and even if there is already a short 3 km tunnel on the Pajares line - but I don't know if this tunnel (called Perruca) is exactly on the summit or if the summit is elsewhere)


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## hans280

Coccodrillo said:


> Planned
> - Semmering Base, 27 km, Alps, Austria
> - Koralm, 27 km, Alps, Austria
> - Traversée Centrale, around 40 km, Pyrenees, Spain-France (the less likely to be built in the near future)
> - Gibraltar tunnel, 40 km, undersea, Spain-Morocco (even less likely but an exploratory tunnel has already been done)


Very nice summary, Coccodrillo! I would disagree only on one point. I think you're being unfair to the Austrians: as far as I know the Koralm tunnel has actually been under construction since 2008.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ I know that at least two access and exploratory tunnels for the Koralm have been built. Also some open-air parts of the new Koralm line are already opened but as a non-electrified single track.

But beside that I haven't really understood if the work is really ongoing or not (I think they are boring the main tunnels from one side...or maybe they are going to start in the enxt future). There is no english website, I don't speak German and even Google Translate is not of a big help as ÖBB's webiste is quite confusing.


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## steple

http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=329dcac0-806a-4be8-8ad4-53a963d503f5&WT.zugang=front_pb1

Schweizer Fernsehen (Swiss Television): Horizonte

Only until 16.10.2010

Very interesting!


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## Deadeye Reloaded

*Let´s use the upcoming breakthrough as an opportunity to pay tribute to the current world record holder.* 




*Seikan Tunnel (青函トンネル)- World´s longest tunnel

13.03.1988 --- 15.10.2010*​










:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:​


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## marki

Nice article about this tunnel..

World's longest tunnel gets ready for rapid rail
Brisbane Times, AFP, October 14, 2010 - 4:57PM
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/tra...gets-ready-for-rapid-rail-20101014-16lhc.html









_World's longest tunnel, A giant drilling machine will complete the world's longest tunnel beneath the Swiss Alps today, paving the way for continuous high-speed rail travel between northern and southeastern Europe. Photo: Reuters_

A giant drilling machine will complete the world's longest tunnel beneath the Swiss Alps on Friday, paving the way for continuous high-speed rail travel between northern and southeastern Europe.

The ceremonial breakthrough in the 57-kilometre long Gotthard base tunnel through the foot of the Alps is due to take place 30 kilometres from one end and 2000 metres below a mountain.

Eight of some 2500 tunnel workers have died since construction of the new railway link began in central Switzerland 15 years ago, blasting and boring through 13 million cubic metres of rock in hot and humid conditions.

By the time it opens for service in 2017, it will exceed the 53.8-kilometre Seikan rail tunnel linking the Japanese islands of Honshu and Hokkaido and the world's longest road tunnel, the 24.5-kilometre Laerdal in Norway.

Although the near 10 billion Swiss franc ($A10.53 billion) project is Swiss, it has fast taken on a continental dimension with the aim of unclogging one of the main north-south commercial routes between Germany and Italy.

European Union Transport Commissioner Siim Kallas on Tuesday called the new Gotthard tunnel "a remarkable project".

Transport ministers from the 27-nation bloc are due to watch the breakthrough ceremony live on television during a regular meeting in Luxembourg, officials said. Switzerland is a not a member of the EU.

The tunnel would cut one hour from the transalpine rail journey, and drive booming road freight off congested Swiss mountain roads onto more environmentally sound rail.

"The Gotthard base tunnel is a milestone on the way to taking freight traffic off the road and onto rail," said Peter Fueglistaler, director of the Federal Transport Office.

Switzerland nonethless struggled to convince sceptical European neighbours after Swiss voters supported an ecologist motion to ban heavy trucks from the Alps -- including the expanding flow of transiting EU goods traffic -- in a shock referendum result in 1994.

In recent years, Austria, France and Italy have set in motion two similar rail tunnel projects through the eastern and western Alps.

"The European Union has made great strides in our direction," said Swiss Transport Minister Moritz Leuenberger.

Last month, Leuenberger handed over a ticket for a post-2017 Gotthard crossing to each of his EU colleagues.

Around 300 trains should be able to speed through the twin tubes every day, at up to 250 kilometres per hour for passenger trains, according to planners.

The current ageing and narrow 15-kilometre tunnel higher up the flanks of the St. Gotthard can cope with just a fraction of that capacity at less than half the speed.

It was nonetheless a global engineering feat when it was completed 128 years ago, having claimed the lives of some 200 tunnel workers.

By the time the 9.5-metre wide tunnel drilling machine breaks through the remaining metre of rock on Friday, the overall cost of the new base tunnel and other revamped rail lines through the Swiss Alps will reach nearly 19 billion francs.

For locals in the mountains, meanwhile, it almost brings the 63 year-old dream of a Swiss engineer to life.

In 1947 Carl Eduard Gruner envisaged not only a tunnel through the foot of the mountains at the same location, but a high speed train network that would whisk tourists between continents and allow them to stop at a gateway to the Alps.

Tentative plans for the "Porta Alpina" station halfway along the new Gotthard tunnel were shelved because of the cost, 50 million francs.

But a huge cavern and evacuation siding has been prepared beneath the village of Sedrun, at the foot of an 800-metre lift shaft built by southern African mining specialists and close to some ambitious ski resorts.

AFP

.


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## Coccodrillo

*Final push to the breakthrough*

_14.10.2010_

The countdown has started: only 1.8 metres to go to a historic breakthrough in the Gotthard! Last Saturday evening at 10.17pm, the tunnelling machine successfully completed its approach to the 127.404km breakthrough position within the eastern tunnel. 

The entire breakthrough area is now being secured, and the tunnelling machine prepared for the breakthrough itself. Preparations are also in full swing for the associated celebrations. On Friday, 15th October 2010 at 2pm, the tunnelling machine from Faido will be started up, and will push the last 1.8 metres of rock out in the direction of Sedrun. The miners, together with a small group of people who are involved in the project and guests (including Swiss Transport Minister Moritz Leuenberger), will be there to witness the main breakthrough to the Sedrun side. The general public will be able to follow the crucial Gotthard Base Tunnel breakthrough live, thanks to transmissions on Schweizer Fernsehen (SF), the French-speaking Swiss television company (Radio télévision Suisse, RTS) and the television company in Ticino (Radiotelevisione svizzera di lingua italiana RSI).


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## Slartibartfas

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ I know that at least two access and exploratory tunnels for the Koralm have been built. Also some open-air parts of the new Koralm line are already opened but as a non-electrified single track.
> 
> But beside that I haven't really understood if the work is really ongoing or not (I think they are boring the main tunnels from one side...or maybe they are going to start in the enxt future). There is no english website, I don't speak German and even Google Translate is not of a big help as ÖBB's webiste is quite confusing.


To my knowledge the Koralmbahn the tunnel drilling is already in progress for a short time being. The whole Koralmbahn which is going to connect Graz with Klagenfurt is planned to be finished by 2020. (project page in German: http://www.oebb.at/infrastruktur/de...Pontebbanaachse_Suedbahn/Koralmbahn/index.jsp)

The Brennerbasistunnel is going ahead in planning has some agreed budget but I'll seriously doubt its sufficient. There are still question marks there.

The Semmeringbasistunnel is a never ending story and I would not sit there waiting for it.


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## Suissetralia

Breakthrough is expected to be at 2 pm :banana:

It should be possible to follow it through here: http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/sfvideo/live/80d433a0-50ed-4efb-b6c1-9e6273262346

or here: http://zattoo.com/view#SF1 

:cheers:


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## ulrico

:applause:

Great Job!


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## Deadeye Reloaded

There will be a live coverage on the tv channel 3Sat in Germany!
Starting at 13.00.

opcorn:


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## Coccodrillo

Live in French: http://www.tsr.ch/video/info/journal-continu/?direct=1#id=1967124


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## Perennial Quest

Is there a livestream in english or italian anywhere?


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## Suissetralia

wowowowo there it is!!!! :cheers: :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

*14:18 CET...it's done!*


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## Alseimik

I hope i'm not a poor student, when the trains starts running through this!


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## Andres_Low

It´s just brilliant, it is really moving to see this historical event, all the hard work done the last decades... congrats to the swiss people, makes one feel so proud to be european.


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## Coccodrillo

Special page son Herrenknecht's (the manufacturer of the TBMs) webiste: http://www.herrenknecht.com/projects/gotthard-base-tunnel.html


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## Coccodrillo

Coccodrillo said:


> Opened:
> - Lötschberg Base, 35 km, Alps, Switzerland (but quite useless regarding gradients as there is still the Simplon ramp)
> - Guadarrama, 28 km, Sierra de Guadarrama, pure HSL
> - Eurotunnel/Channel Tunnel, 50 km, undersea, United Kingdom-France
> - Laerdal, 24.5 km, Scandinavian mountains, Norway, road
> 
> Under construction:
> - Gotthard Base, 57 km, Alps, Switzerland
> - Pajares, 25 km, Cordillera Cantabrica, Spain (+ 20 km of others tunnels, that is 45 km underground out of 50 km of new line)
> 
> Advanced planning stage (exploratory tunnels and acces shafts), but construction still uncertain
> - Brenner Base, 55 km, Alps, Austria-Italy
> - Fréjus Base, 57 km, Alps, France-Italy (also known as Mont Cenis Base, Mont d'Ambin Base, or Lyon-Turin)
> 
> Planned
> - Semmering Base, 27 km, Alps, Austria
> - Koralm, 27 km, Alps, Austria
> - Traversée Centrale, around 40 km, Pyrenees, Spain-France (the less likely to be built in the near future)
> - Gibraltar tunnel, 40 km, undersea, Spain-Morocco (even less likely but an exploratory tunnel has already been done)
> 
> (the adjective "base" is used where there is already a "summit" tunnel, even if on the Brenner there is no summit tunnel, but the new is called "base", and even if there is already a short 3 km tunnel on the Pajares line - but I don't know if this tunnel (called Perruca) is exactly on the summit or if the summit is elsewhere)


To these we have now to add the second Guanjiao tunnel in China, 32.6 km under construction at an altitude of 3.400 metres.

http://www.cwmags.com/November-09/basic/page17.php

http://www.putzmeister.de/cps/rde/xchg/pm_online/hs.xsl/8786_ENU_HTML.htm


----------



## yaohua2000

Coccodrillo said:


> To these we have now to add the second Guanjiao tunnel in China, 32.6 km under construction at an altitude of 3.400 metres.
> 
> http://www.cwmags.com/November-09/basic/page17.php
> 
> http://www.putzmeister.de/cps/rde/xchg/pm_online/hs.xsl/8786_ENU_HTML.htm


And here is the map of the current old Guanjiao Tunnel:

http://osm.org/go/5Thxql5--


----------



## Coccodrillo

Two long articles about the GBT and CBT: http://www.tunnel-online.info/en/issue/tunnel_2009-04_133044.html (in English and German)

The second of a series of three books about the project: http://www.alptransit.ch/de/news/ar...umentiert-bau-des-laengsten-tunnels-der-welt/ (I suppose it will published only in German and Italian; the third and last book will be published after the opening)

Finally, the usual monthly update:



> *Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri*
> 
> _02.12.2010_
> 
> As of December 1, 2010, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 150.4 km, or 99%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in November 2010 was 531 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of November 2010, 10.46 km, or 26.3%, had been excavated.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> *Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri*
> 
> _05.01.2011_
> 
> As of January 1, 2011, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 150.49 km, or 99.1%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in December 2010 was 113 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of December 2010, 10.82 km, or 27.2%, had been excavated.


http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/article/2011/05/05/bezeichnung/


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/article/2011/05/05/bezeichnung/


Where are the 1350 m not dug yet?


----------



## Momo1435

chornedsnorkack said:


> Where are the 1350 m not dug yet?


Look at the "State of excavation" drawing in the link.

The west tunnel still has a bit to go until it will have it's breakthrough.


----------



## panda80

From alptransit.ch:

As of February 1, 2011, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 150.77 km, or 99.3%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in January 2011 was 275 m.

Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of January 2011, 11.36 km, or 28.6%, had been excavated.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri
> 
> 02.03.2011
> 
> As of March 1, 2011, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 151.256 km, or 99.62%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in February 2011 was 486 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of February 2011, 11.89 km, or 29.9%, had been excavated.


And an aerial image of the northern part of this part of the new line (around 70 km in total): http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/article/2011/03/02/bezeichnung/

The plan is for an entirely new Zürich-Milan railway parallel to the existing one, but the remaining parts will not be built anytime soon.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The 100.000th train crossed the Lötschberg Base Tunnel today, since its opening in June 2007. It carries 80 to 110 trains a day despite its 22 km of single track. As the traffic is higher than that, many trains still run on the old line.

http://www.bls.ch/d/unternehmen/medien-communiques.php


----------



## gramercy

what about the second tube

and while we're at it, what about some other tunnels? bellinzona? zimmerberg 2? etc


----------



## K_

gramercy said:


> what about the second tube


There is definitely lobbying going on to have the Lötschberg tunnel expanded. However there are two problems: a) money and b) what will happen once the Gotthard base tunnel opens...



> and while we're at it, what about some other tunnels? bellinzona? zimmerberg 2? etc


Again, that's mostly a money issue. There are a lot of other projects on the wish lists of the railways and the kantons, and some of them will be untertaken first.

If you can cope with German there is a Wikipedia article that lists all projects, with status and what larger project they're part of.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Eisenbahnprojekte


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

K_ said:


> [...]
> If you can cope with German there is a Wikipedia article that lists all projects, with status and what larger project they're part of.
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizer_Eisenbahnprojekte


^^
Wow :uh:! Very interesting article. opcorn: Thanks.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The line between Visp and the bifurcation Lausanne/Lötschberg base tunnel (some 3 km) will soon be extended from 3 to 4 tracks. This will allow retarded northbound trains to wait a slot in the LBT instead of running on the old line (this can cause troubles as some trains have second or third locomotive scheduled only ebtween Domodossola and Brig, and therefore if diverted they have to wait a bank engine).

Together with the extension of some passing loops on the Luino branch it's the only approved AlpTransit project (beside what is already under construction). Also the enlargment of the loading gauge on the Gotthard line may be probable in the next ten years.

The other projects are delayed again and again.


----------



## Coccodrillo

More informations of the new Lötschberg tunnel: http://www.bls.ch/e/unternehmen/download-neatprofil.pdf (changing the URL you can find it in the national languages)


----------



## Coccodrillo

An unofficial website about the LBT made by one of the workers: http://www.ferden.net/

(Ferden is the location of one of the access tunnels)


----------



## hhouse

According to this source: http://www.luzernerzeitung.ch/zentralschweiz/kantone/uri/art97,82638 the final break through in the west tube will be on next Wednesday (23th March)!


----------



## Coccodrillo

Beside that there are some cross passages to bore. These will take another few days.

Plan of Faido emergency station: http://www.tat-ti.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Dokumente/Stand_der_Arbeiten_KW29_09_15072009.pdf (2.3 MB)


----------



## Coccodrillo

> *Gotthard Base Tunnel: Driving complete*
> 
> _23.03.2011_
> 
> *On March 23, 2011, the miners excavated the last metres of rock in the west tube between Faido and Sedrun. Around five months after the final breakthrough in the east tube, both single-track tunnels of the Gotthard Base Tunnel are therefore completely driven over a continuous length of 57 kilometres. *
> 
> The tunnel boring machine from Faido broke through into the Sedrun section at 12:20 pm. The miners of the two sections could again shake hands. "With the end of excavation under the Gotthard, a further important milestone has been reached in the construction of the world's longest railway tunnel", says Renzo Simoni, CEO of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd.
> 
> *Mainly excavated by tunnel boring machine*
> With this second final breakthrough, a construction phase comes to an end which began in 2001 in the southern section at Bodio and was already prepared from 1996 with the construction of logistical access tunnels at Amsteg, Sedrun, Faido and Bodio, as well as the sinking of two 800 metres-deep shafts at Sedrun. Of the around 152-kilometres-long tunnel system of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, including all passages and shafts, around 56 % were excavated by tunnel boring machine and around 44 % by drilling and blasting. During the excavations, a total of more than 28 million metric tons of rock were transported out from under the mountains.
> 
> *Railway infrastructure to be installed by 2016*
> AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. will hand over the tunnel to Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) in operating condition at the end of May 2016. Until then, the focus of construction work will be on the tunnel lining, infrastructure systems and railway installations. This work has already started in the previously completed sections of tunnel in parallel with the final driving and concrete-shell construction activities.
> 
> *AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd.*
> AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. is the constructor of the Gotthard axis of the New Rail Link through the Alps with base tunnels through the Gotthard and Ceneri. Established in 1998 as a subsidiary of Swiss Federal Railways (SBB), the company now employs around 150 people at its headquarters in Lucerne and its branches in Altdorf, Sedrun, Faido and Bellinzona.


From ATG website: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/article/2011/03/23/gotthard-basistunnel-der-vortrieb-ist-beendet/ (the Italian and German versions have some more details and the speeches held during before and after the breakthrough)

To be precise, this is probably not the end of excavation, as there may be some cross tunnels linking the two tubes left, a few dozen metres in total.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The first track in the eastern tube, just a few hundred kilometres long.


----------



## pietje01

Coccodrillo said:


> The first track in the eastern tube, just a few hundred kilometres long.


Are You sure about this ?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Obviously not! I had initially written "a few hundred meters", later I wanted to change it to "a few kilometres", but I made a mistake. I don't know how much track had already been laid, but it should be around 1,5 to 2 km in the western tube starting from the south. The eastern tube is still being used to supply the workers who are lining the tunnel (the red parts in the drawing).


----------



## Coccodrillo

The 30th AlpTransit report has been published: http://www.bav.admin.ch/alptransit/index.html?lang=fr (on the right, only in the three official languages)



> Stand der Arbeiten am Gotthard und am Ceneri
> 
> 04.04.2011
> 
> Am 1. April 2011 waren von den insgesamt 151.84 km Tunnel, Schächte und Stollen des Gotthard-Basistunnels 151.70 km oder 99.91 % ausgebrochen. Der Vortrieb im März 2011 betrug 453 m. Die Vortriebsarbeiten im Gotthard-Basistunnel sind bis auf 40m bei einem Querschlag abgeschlossen. Beim Tagbautunnel West in Erstfeld fehlen noch 118 m bis zum Anschluss an das bergmännische Portal.
> 
> Beim Ceneri-Basistunnel waren von den insgesamt 39.78 km Ende März 2011 12.345 km oder 31% ausgebrochen.


99.9% of the GBT and 31% of the CBT have been bored.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The 2010 film has been published by ATG, for the second time also in English (other than German and Italian): http://www.alptransit.ch/en/service/dvds-alptransit-gotthard/

The usual monthly update:



> *Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri*
> 
> As of April 1, 2011, of the total of 151.84 km of tunnels, galleries and passages of the Gotthard Base Tunnel, 151.7 km, or 99.91%, had been excavated. The total amount driven in March 2011 was 453 m.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of March 2011, 12.345 km, or 21%, had been excavated.


The 0.09% still to be bored is composed by two cross passages and part of the artificial tunnel section of the northern portal.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> *Status of Work on the Gotthard and Ceneri*
> 
> _04.05.2011_
> 
> Except for 40 metres of a cross-passage in the Faido section, driving work in the Gotthard Base Tunnel is complete. In the west cut-and-cover tunnel at Erstfeld, 77 metres remain until the connection to the underground portal. Lining work in the Erstfeld, Sedrun and Faido sections is progressing according to plan. At Bodio West, installation of the railway infrastructure for the test section is in progress.
> 
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of April 2011, 12.66 km, or 31.8%, had been excavated.


http://www.alptransit.ch/en/news/article/2011/05/04/bezeichnung/


----------



## Coccodrillo

On May 20th 500 randomly choosen visitors will travel through the first kilometres of the base tunnel for the first time on the recently laid tracks. Free shuttle bus from Biasca railway station to the work site, then by train until a point somewhere in the mountain.

http://www.alptransit.ch/en/visit-us/construction-site-open-day/ (a more detailed presentation is available only in Italian and German)


----------



## Coccodrillo

http://www.bls.ch/i/unternehmen/fotogalerie-neat.php


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ why is it going to take until 2017 to put the tunnel in operation? I can understand some time for installing systems, particularly ventilation that is needed for other works/test to proceed, but I can't understand why the need for 6 years for all of that until commercial operations begin - assuming no further delays.

In any case, that the Swiss built 2 single-track transalpine tunnels instead of one transalpine tunnel with double tracks or - even better - one road, one rail tunnel is beyond my ability to understand that small country just north of Milano.


----------



## earthJoker

Maybe it has something to do with your abilities rather with the project? :dunno:

And the reason for the time it takes to do the installation is already written some pages ago.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, that the Swiss built 2 single-track transalpine tunnels instead of one transalpine tunnel with double tracks or - even better - one road, one rail tunnel is beyond my ability to understand that small country just north of Milano.


The new Gotthard tunnel is double track, the new Lötschberg tunnel is partly single track, both with two parallel single track tubes for safety and maintenance reasons (in the case of the Lötschberg, one third has two tracks in two tubes, one third has one track in one tube + a parallel rail tube, full profile but without the track, one third has one track in one tube + a parallel small diametre service tunnel).

This is what voters decided to build, just like they rejected a project proposing third lanes on Geneva-Lausanne, Berne-Zürich and a second Gotthard road tunnel, plus some money for urban public transport.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, that the Swiss built 2 single-track transalpine tunnels instead of one transalpine tunnel with double tracks or - even better - one road, one rail tunnel is beyond my ability to understand that small country just north of Milano.


It's probably also beyond your ability to understand why the French and the English built two singne track tunnels under the Channel...


----------



## Deadeye Reloaded

The Swiss want to put more goods on railways to prevent an increase of traffic on their highways. And that is the best solution for the ever increasing heavy truck traffic in Europe. kay:

Whole Europe should follow this example! :yes:


----------



## StuZealand

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ why is it going to take until 2017 to put the tunnel in operation? I can understand some time for installing systems, particularly ventilation that is needed for other works/test to proceed, but I can't understand why the need for 6 years for all of that until commercial operations begin - assuming no further delays.


The official site states that the tunnel will be handed over to its owners at the end of May 2016 now. So that's an improvement on earlier estimates of late 2017.

If you take a look at progress on the aforementioned official site, you can see that there's still a huge amount of work to do on the tunnel yet: many km of concrete lining left to do, electrics, the catenary, drainage, not to mention testing of all these systems once they're installed.

IMO, this would have to be one of the most complex tunnels ever built because of the sheer number of systems in place due to its extreme length.

Cheers,
StuZealand

(This is my first post as a registered user.)


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## Suburbanist

^^ Will that intermediate station, 1000m below ground, be opened at the same time? I still don't get why are they building a station, in the middle of the tunnel, though. I do understand the need for ventilation shafts and service accesses, but opening a station in the middle of the mountains seems a bit over the top.


----------



## StuZealand

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Will that intermediate station, 1000m below ground, be opened at the same time? I still don't get why are they building a station, in the middle of the tunnel, though. I do understand the need for ventilation shafts and service accesses, but opening a station in the middle of the mountains seems a bit over the top.


Nope, Porta Alpina was put on indefinate hold a few years ago.


----------



## earthJoker

The Porta Alpina was the mother of all pipe dreams.


----------



## StuZealand

You could even say the people promoting it had tunnel vision.


----------



## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> http://www.bls.ch/i/unternehmen/fotogalerie-neat.php


Hi Coccodrillo,
The picture you posted above shows the tunnel with lights lining the walls. Is this typical of modern Swiss tunnels, to have lights on all the time?


----------



## Coccodrillo

> It is not about wasting public money, but building infrastructure without micro-managing its use.


Building something which is useless 99% of time *is* a waste of money.



> In Switzerland, a company like NTV would never have any chance to operate because of the oppressive system in which every bit of rail infrastructure is taken by centrally defined scheduled trains.


Thankfully. The result is that Swiss use public transport 3 times more than Italians, even if Switzerland has built much less new infrastructure.



> Cisalpino is a good late example of that. They wanted to kill Cisalpino before the new Gotthard tunnel entered operation, to avoid it taking a higher share of a market (Ticino - rest of CH) SBB wants to fierce control as a monopolist.


Cisalpino wasn't killed in a normal sense, it was more a sort of euthanasia. Cisalpino did its best to be hated by everyone. But I agree that SBB wanted to make it disappear.



> Non-sense! It would be like building a new runway only after careful planning, in a monopolistic way, with airlines interested in operating previously defined routes 2 years in advance of the opening of a new terminal!


If the runway is built with private funds, then no problem. If it is built with *my* money, then no thank you, think 100 time before spending it.



> They are overstretching the rail lines' capacity. Should a problem, weather or technical, happens, the whole system is bring to a halt because of the use of every single bit of track and path to its maximum.


Yes, it would be a problem, but everything is done so as no faults happens (well...this is becoming less true in recent years).



> Anyway, the idea of building infrastructure for previously defined use is keen to communist countries and their centrally planned approaches. It doesn't fit the otherwise business friendly atmosphere of CH.


Avoiding waste of taxpayer's money is not communism.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> What a mess! Sure it is good to have the project completed on time, before major renovation on the Gotthard road tunnel begins. However, why in this Earth would someone plan a timetable two years ahead of time?


Because you need to decide about things like where you're going to put signals, sidings, switches etc. And these things have lead times. 

You don't want to find out after the fact that you could run one train per hour more if only you'd have placed a particular signal somewhere else, or build a siding in a different place...


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> In Switzerland, a company like NTV would never have any chance to operate because of the oppressive system in which every bit of rail infrastructure is taken by centrally defined scheduled trains. Even hostile competition of International trains is difficult there unless SBB collaborates.


A timetable with fixed slots makes it actually easier for private companies to run trains, as they can just ask for the catalogue, buy a slot for a particular period and be guaranteed that slot. It's probably one of the reason why more privately run trains operate in Switzerland than in most European countries. 



> Cisalpino is a good late example of that. They wanted to kill Cisalpino before the new Gotthard tunnel entered operation, to avoid it taking a higher share of a market (Ticino - rest of CH)


You don't know what you write about.
There was no competition between Cisalpino and SBB on the Ticino - rest of Switzerland market, as the Cisalpino trains were always integrated with the rest of the offer. Normal domestic tarif applied to trips from Chiasso to points north. 
There was no competition. Someone travelling from Lugano to Zürich would just take whatever train was convenient. The Cisalpino brand only mattered in so far as it was a train to avoid, as the trainsets were so unreliable.



> Non-sense! It would be like building a new runway only after careful planning, in a monopolistic way, with airlines interested in operating previously defined routes 2 years in advance of the opening of a new terminal!


You really think that airport expansion is not done in a carefully planned way?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Anyway, the idea of building infrastructure for previously defined use is keen to communist countries and their centrally planned approaches. It doesn't fit the otherwise business friendly atmosphere of CH.


So you need a certain amount of communism to avoid problems with runaway national debts, it seems. Is that what you are implying?


----------



## K_

SBB plans to run Zürich - Ticino trains half hourly from 2019 onwards (when the Ceneri tunnel opens). To make this possible the capacity of the Zug - Arth Goldau line needs to be increased. 
So from 2016 on this line will be closed for two years, to allow it to be reconstructed and partly double tracked.
Long distance trains will be rerouted via the western bank of Lake Zug. Thanks to the opening of the Gotthard Base tunnel in 2016 this will not lead to longer travel times on the Gotthard route. Even though every train will have to reverse in Rotkreuz travel times will already be 20 minutes faster from 2016 onwards. In order to prepare for the closure of Zug - Arth Goldau the last single track section on Zug - Rotkreuz will be double tracked, and an extra track for reversing trains will be installed in Rotkreuz.
http://m.sbb.ch/news.newsdetail.2011-8-2908_45_01.html


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Can't they just build the missing part of the T on that line? Looking on Google Earth, it looks like there is a good alignment for the gap to be closed with demolition of fewer than 12-15 houses, and that would also leave a permanent direct connections that could be used by future trains between Cham and Küssnatch.

And why will they make the line only "partly doubled" instead of "entirely doubled"?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Can't they just build the missing part of the T on that line?


It was once planend, but now with the partial "doubling" (only less than 2 km, actually) of the Zug - Arth Goldau line there is no need for it.



Suburbanist said:


> And why will they make the line only "partly doubled" instead of "entirely doubled"?


Because it would cost much for a little utility. It is useless to double a line in a point where trains aren't planned to cross each other (except to reduce propagation of delays).


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Can't they just build the missing part of the T on that line? Looking on Google Earth, it looks like there is a good alignment for the gap to be closed with demolition of fewer than 12-15 houses, and that would also leave a permanent direct connections that could be used by future trains between Cham and Küssnatch.


Interestingly there was once a chord there. It was removed when Gotthard route was separated from the Zürich - Luzern route. 
(For Cham - Küssnacht trains you would also have to build a new chord where the Luzern -Immensee line joins btw...)
I don't think there is enough demand for direct trains on that relation to justify building the chord.
As far as I know building it was once considered. Earlier plans for the northern approach to the Gotthard once considered running southbound trains on the eastern bank, and northbound trains on the western bank of the Zugersee. However the solution now chosen (upgrading and partly doubling the eastern bank route) has the advantage to allow half hourly local service on the eastern bank of the Zugersee too. 
To make efficient reversal of the Gotthard ICs in Rotkreuz possible the station will get an extra track, and the last single track section between Zug and Rotkreuz will be eliminated, which will make it possible to run the locals on the west bank of the Zugersee in nice 15 minute intervals in the future. So you see that SBB has choosen to only build stuff that will have utility beyond 2019.
Eliminating the reversal in Rotkreuz would have limited utility anyway, as the train has to meet with the Basel - Gotthard trains in Arth Goldau anyway, so minutes saved there would mostly end up being spend standing in Arth Goldau. 



> And why will they make the line only "partly doubled" instead of "entirely doubled"?


Because that would cost more and not bring any extra utility.
One advantage of interval timetables is that trains always cross at the same points. So you only need to build double track at those points. That is one of the reason why SBB is already working on the post Gotthard timetable. This way they know exactly how much they need to invest in infrastructure to get the service level they think they can make most money with...


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ And what happens if a foreign operator, open-access one - say DB - wants to run some 3 daily Milano-Zürich-Basel-Frankfurt trains, for instance? "Not possible because our infrastructure doesn't allow for it"?


----------



## Coccodrillo

> "Not possible because our infrastructure doesn't allow for it"?


Basically, yes. But thankfully Switzerland isn´t part of the EU and for the moment is not obliged to allow other operators.

However, in this case, is in interest of DB searching some collaboration with the SBB, as a non integrated operator (if ever permitted) would hardly attract swiss passengers.


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Basically, yes. But thankfully Switzerland isn´t part of the EU and for the moment is not obliged to allow other operators.
> 
> However, in this case, is in interest of DB searching some collaboration with the SBB, as a non integrated operator (if ever permitted) would hardly attract swiss passengers.


As they already do with through freight traffic, the Swiss are again plotting against foreign traffic, even if they are highly dependent on other European countries from EU's economies.

They want to force international rail operators to "fit" their own schemes for rail schedules and not disrupt any service.

As for an hypothetical Milano-Frankfurt train via Switzerland, I was thinking of international traffic to/from CH. It is possible even to forbid the operator to sell tickets for inta-Swiss relations.


----------



## Suissetralia

Suburbanist said:


> They want to force international rail operators to "fit" their own schemes for rail schedules and not disrupt any service.


Well, it is SBB who's building the infrastructure to cover its own needs. I'm pretty sure that if DB wants to run a service between Milano and Frankfurt via ZH and BS and the company offers to double all single tracks on the route, their investments would be very welcomed.


----------



## Suburbanist

Suissetralia said:


> Well, it is SBB who's building the infrastructure to cover its own needs. I'm pretty sure that if DB wants to run a service between Milano and Frankfurt via ZH and BS and the company offers to double all single tracks on the route, their investments would be very welcomed.


That is the problem of collusion between infrastructure building decisions and service operating decisions. Works like the Gotthard tunnel and its complements should be done to increase capacity.

When they first announced the Gotthard project, I was younger but I already got frustrated that they said they were not planning to carry whole trucks in RO-RO trains, but only piggyback ones. And because infrastructure and service are colluded against free market, it is very unlikely that any private operator could try to run RO-RO trains, let alone because of the tunnel specifications and because the are not implementing safety measures needed to accommodate 100 trucks with tanks full of diesel (= fire hazard) there, but only their trailers.

At the same tame, they don't build the 2nd Gotthard road bore. They are essentially forcing through freight traffic to do transshipment in both Germany and Italy.


----------



## TedStriker

Suburbanist said:


> They are essentially forcing through freight traffic to do transshipment in both Germany and Italy.



Isn't the promotion of unaccompanied intermodal systems (semi-trailers/swap bodies) a good thing?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> As for an hypothetical Milano-Frankfurt train via Switzerland, I was thinking of international traffic to/from CH. It is possible even to forbid the operator to sell tickets for inta-Swiss relations.


I don't think that a Zürich-Milano service could survive with only international passengers (except on very peak days during holidays, the same when the motorway is full of tourists), without considering that a non SBB service would not accept its discoutns, and thats means losing *a lot* of users.



TedStriker said:


> Isn't the promotion of unaccompanied intermodal systems (semi-trailers/swap bodies) a good thing?


Yes it is, unlike RoRo trains, which cannot cover their costs and are subsidized, also because only a third or so of the train's weight are goods. The problem is not the risk of fires...

The only partial exception is the Eurotunnel, where road vehicles don't have a road alternative, but again, Euroshuttles cannot repay their infrastructure.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ And what happens if a foreign operator, open-access one - say DB - wants to run some 3 daily Milano-Zürich-Basel-Frankfurt trains, for instance? "Not possible because our infrastructure doesn't allow for it"?


"not possible because or infra doesn't allow it" is an excuse that RFI will use, even when it's not true (Milano Centrale at capacity? Really?) SBB works differently. I don't know how many paths will be timetabled on the Arth Goldau - Zug line after 2018, but I'm sure it will have some spares, as SBB itself likes to have some operational flexibility too. The paths will likely be bundled at half hour intervals though. 
So yes, DB would have to confirm to the timetable. But that is the case everywhere. There is not a single network operator in Europe where you can just request to be allowed to run a train at your own convenience. Everywhere the procedure requires that you buy a path in the current or future timetable.

DB would however not want to run a train. Milano Zürich - Basel - Frankfurt.
Milano - Basel - Frankfurt maybe, but such a train would go via the Simplon.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> As they already do with through freight traffic, the Swiss are again plotting against foreign traffic, even if they are highly dependent on other European countries from EU's economies.


There are already today many foreign operators running trains through Switzerland. More than in many other countries. I don't get the impression they are "plotting against" them. It's more like "plotting to make them feal as welcome as possible".
Switzerland has implemented the EU railway directives. Better then some EU countries even. 



> They want to force international rail operators to "fit" their own schemes for rail schedules and not disrupt any service.


The requirement to make your trains fit a schedule is one that _every_ network operator in Europe makes. 



> As for an hypothetical Milano-Frankfurt train via Switzerland, I was thinking of international traffic to/from CH. It is possible even to forbid the operator to sell tickets for inta-Swiss relations.


If DB wants to run a Milano-Frankfurt train their biggest problems will be with the Italians, not the Swiss.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> That is the problem of collusion between infrastructure building decisions and service operating decisions. Works like the Gotthard tunnel and its complements should be done to increase capacity.


The collusion between service operating secisions and infrastructure building exists everywhere. RFF is forcing SNCF to adopt a fixed interval timetable for example. Timetabling has a lot of influence on capacity, and thus also on how much revenue a line can generate.



> When they first announced the Gotthard project, I was younger but I already got frustrated that they said they were not planning to carry whole trucks in RO-RO trains, but only piggyback ones. And because infrastructure and service are colluded against free market, it is very unlikely that any private operator could try to run RO-RO trains, let alone because of the tunnel specifications and because the are not implementing safety measures needed to accommodate 100 trucks with tanks full of diesel (= fire hazard) there, but only their trailers.


I don't know where you have this from, but it is intened to run RoLa trains through the Gotthard base tunnel, just like they already do through the new Lötschberg tunnel.




> At the same tame, they don't build the 2nd Gotthard road bore. They are essentially forcing through freight traffic to do transshipment in both Germany and Italy.


A bit like the UK "forces" most freight to be transhipped too... Anyway, Trenitalia/RFI want to turn Italy in to an Island. They should not have a problem with transhipment then...


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> A bit like the UK "forces" most freight to be transhipped too... Anyway, Trenitalia/RFI want to turn Italy in to an Island. They should not have a problem with transhipment then...


Trenitalia has nothing to do with it. The issue is whether RFI should accelerate ERTMS-2 when countries like French, Germany and Austria are dragging their feet on their "superior" and "time-proven" signaling systems. 

But I agree there is still undue influence of Trenitalia on RFI. That is why I favor dismantling Trenitaltia into 17 regional railways for the public service contracts, and having it operate only profitable free market, unsubsidized trains. The regional operators of Piemonte, Lombardia, Trentino and Friuli shall be then forbidden to operate any international train to avoid them becoming international carriers since they are subsidized.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Trenitalia has nothing to do with it.


Trenitalia tried to boycott TILO and DB-ÖBB services, even when they weren't in "competition" with their own service. Not to forget the Cisalpino disaster.



Suburbanist said:


> The regional operators of Piemonte, Lombardia, Trentino and Friuli shall be then forbidden to operate any international train to avoid them becoming international carriers since they are subsidized.


Some international services can and have to be subsidized: TILO and Nord-Südtirol services for instance, but also PACA-Liguria or FVG-Slovenia regions may be well suited for this kind of services (these two latter examples are only hypothetical, as Liguria is doing nothing for regional transport, while FVG not much more).


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## StuZealand

*And some more new photos:*

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/339308/20120510/gotthard-base-tunnel-construction-pictures-ceneri.htm


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## Deadeye Reloaded

^^
Thank you for the links! kay: opcorn:


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## Coccodrillo

Amsteg worksite, 5 May 2012:


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## StuZealand

*GBT construction site open day - 30 June*

Is anyone from SSC planning to attend this at Erstfeld on Saturday? If so it would be great to see some new pics of the work. :cheers1:​


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## Coccodrillo

I am...


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> I am...


Cool! I hope we can see some of your pics next week then Coccodrillo.


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## Coccodrillo

Here they are!

All the works base is paved to avoid dust, except the switches which are in a box made to avoid dispersion of their lubricants.










Firstly tubes, cables and various ducts are posed using these bidirectional road vehicles. Then track is laid with a single train which transport sleepers, rails, and can pour the concrete to fix them.










Another work train, probably to install smaller components (it's neither for track laying nor for overhead wires).


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## Coccodrillo

One wagon used to install overhead equipment. There are two towers (the other is not visible in the photo), and they can go higher. These vehicles can move alone along the track, but they are towed for longer distances.










In the background the beginning of the track laying train, which is several hundreds metres long. In the foreground a low floor 8-axle wagons like the ones used for combined transport used to carry road vehicles or other high equipment in the tunnel.










The underground cavern for the future branch tunnel to Arth Goldau. If built the underground section will be around 80 km long. This is the eastern tube, where around 8 km of track have been already laid from the north (much less, say around 1 km, in the other tube). On the other side of the tunnel, 50 km south, there are 13 km of track in the western tube (it's there where from autumn 2013 the first electric trains will be tested up to 230 km/h, not more at this stage of works because the track will not be enough long).


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## Coccodrillo

Part of the switch has been installed, without the moving parts. This will enable the construction of the future branch without interrupting the rail traffic for too much time. This will not happen until 2040 at the earlies, however. There are many of these underground junctions in the AlpTransit project: 10 in the Gotthard base tunnel, 4 in the Ceneri base tunnel, 2 in the Zimmerberg base tunnel and 13 in the Lötschberg base tunnel: 29 in total (some of them without use now, but built to allow future branches).










Looking north, we are about 7.5 km from the northern portal in the eastern tube. Note how wide is the tunnel, it could host a two-lane road. Boring diameter is around 9.5 m, that should be around 8.8 m subtracting the lining.










One of the two trains shuttling, composed by a locomotive and two coaches. They crossed just outside the tunnel as underground there are no crossing possibilities (for now).


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## Coccodrillo

One of the many cross passages connecting the two tunnels (they are around 170 in total), this one is quite small but others are bigger as they were built to allow passage of road vehicles (however, the final tunnel will no more be usable by them).










Where one of the two Amsteg access tunnels meets the western bore. A sort of tunnel has been built inside the tunnel for aerodynamic reasons. There are three access tunnels in total, two of them also host rescue stations (not this one).










In one of the Amsteg access tunnels there is this short section of track and equipment. It was built for test purposes, but it has been transformed as an attraction for visitors with panels explaining how the tunnel is built. There is a similar installation also on one of the souther work site (that will be demolished in future - the one in the photo here is likely going to remain).


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## Coccodrillo

After this test track we can still see the narrow gauge tracks (900 m, slightly less than 3 ft) used by works trains.










The two Amsteg access tunnels form an X: behind and in front of me there is the road access tunnel, around 2.7 km in length and wide enough for two lanes. On the left there is the cable tunnel (~2.5 km) of a smaller diameter which lead to the Amsteg hydroelectric power station, owned by the SBB and that directly feeds the tunnel. The road tunnel was built first by drill&blast, followed then by the cable tunnel built by a TBM this time starting from this cavern and going out to the surface.










Opposite the cable tunnel there is this cavern, with a building for various equipment. As I said before, it is no longer possible to enter the rail tunnels with road vehicles from there: only by foot.










The west tunnel looking north, here still without tracks.










We are back to the sunlight! If the second Gotthard road tunnel will not be built, this place will be reused for temporary truck shuttle trains during the refurbishment of the first road tunnel. In any case, in the end fields will come back.










An aerial photo: the tunnel is to the south, on the left the Gotthard mainline, on the right a industrial siding no more in place.


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## KingNick

Amazing pictures. Thanks Coccodrillo!


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Part of the switch has been installed, without the moving parts. This will enable the construction of the future branch without interrupting the rail traffic for too much time. This will not happen until 2040 at the earlies, however. There are many of these underground junctions in the AlpTransit project: 10 in the Gotthard base tunnel, 4 in the Ceneri base tunnel, 2 in the Zimmerberg base tunnel and 13 in the Lötschberg base tunnel: 29 in total (some of them without use now, but built to allow future branches).


Are there going to be any crossovers in the Gotthard tunnel? 
Also, are there really 13 junctions prepared in the Lötschberg tunnel? For what future extensions?


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## Coccodrillo

You are welcome 



Coccodrillo said:


> The two Amsteg access tunnels form an X: behind and in front of me there is the road access tunnel, around 2.7 km in length and wide enough for two lanes. On the left there is the cable tunnel (~2.5 km) of a smaller diameter which lead to the Amsteg hydroelectric power station, owned by the SBB and that directly feeds the tunnel. The road tunnel was built first by drill&blast, followed then by the cable tunnel built by a TBM this time starting from this cavern and going out to the surface.


A note about that. SBB decided to electrify its lines with an AC system in the 1910s, preferring it over the DC systems. As high frequency motors were difficult to build at that time it was not possible to use the 45 to 50 Hz of the (quit basic anyway) industrial network of the time. It was then decided to use one third of this frequency, 16 and 2/3 Hz, building a separate electric network with its own power lines, its own power stations, etc. In this way 80% of the electricity used by SBB is hydroelectric (mainly from its owns power stations), and nearly all of its trains run on electric power (the exceptions are industrial sidings, a few freight only branch lines, and maintenance trains). The 16 and 2/3 Hz (now 16.7 Hz) and 50 Hz network are basically isolated from each other.



K_ said:


> Are there going to be any crossovers in the Gotthard tunnel?


Yes, two, at one third and at two thirds of the tunnel, and also just outside the tunnel. That's one every around 20 km (on the rest of the Gotthard railway they are every 3 to 5 km).

There are two double crossovers in the Lötschberg base tunnel irregularly spaced and two single ones (one way). From the northern portal: km 1 single (track 2 Frutigen station, see below), km 8 double, km 22 double, km 29 single (Steg branch). I'm not sure about the exact position of the crossovers, but these distances are more or less correct.

The Zimmerberg base tunnel has a crossover near the northern portal (but it is a single tube double track tunnel, so there are no such caverns), the Ceneri base tunnel doesn't have crossovers at all (the 4 caverns are for branches).



K_ said:


> Also, are there really 13 junctions prepared in the Lötschberg tunnel? For what future extensions?


Yes. 8 are for crossovers in Mitholz and Ferden (4 caverns each), 3 are for the Steg junction (bored but without tracks, for trains Bern-Frutigen-Sion), and 2 are near the northern portal to link track 2 of Frutigen station with the eastern tube. Only 2 of these 13 are actually used, the others have only one track laid (no switches, or with an incomplete switch like the one in my photo) or are completely without tracks.

You can see 11 of them there: http://schienenfahrzeuge.netshadow....10&sessionid=d8693daa464fe3891f96be1f08b514ae (there is another est-west tube link near Mitholz)


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## K_

^^ Thanks. I learn something every day. I wish I could have made it to the open day...


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## Coccodrillo

Maybe if you will be able, on 29th September: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/visit-us/construction-site-open-day.html (about the boring techniques - no tracks there at this stage)


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## Groningen NL

Thanks for the many pics Coccodrillo


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## Highcliff

people
is it true the sedrum shaft is 800m height?
what are there inside the shaft? only stairs? should it have elevators?


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## K_

Highcliff said:


> people
> is it true the sedrum shaft is 800m height?
> what are there inside the shaft? only stairs? should it have elevators?


It is. and here is a service elevator in it.
And there is this plan to actually build a railway station there, "Porta Alpina". If built this would have one of the longest elevators in the world.
Currently however this project is on hold. However as far as I know it has been decided not to do anything that would make it impossible in the future.


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## Coccodrillo

There are two shafts in Sedrun, each 830 m high. One will have a small elevator for workers, the other will only be used for ventilation. However it is likely that, in addition to the elevator, there are cranes in both to allow maintenance of any point of the shafts.

Porta Alpina would be of difficult access as both at track level and between the top of the shaft and the outside there are long distance that would have to be covered by bus (around 1.5 km/1 mile each).

The top of the shafts are inside a mountain, from there there is a road tunnel (around 1 km long) that goes to Sedrun village and an inclined shaft going in the opposite direction. this shaft is used for ventilation and ends in an inhabited valley on the opposite side of the mountain (in respect to Sedrun).


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## Momo1435

From what I remember reading here or in magazine the main reason why the Porta Alpina station was scrapped (not just put on hold) because of operational problem mainly caused by safety issues. 

If remember correctly it would not be allowed to have people down in the station without a train in the station. So a train would have to wait until all the people that disembarked would be in the lift. The stops of the trains would have become too long reducing the overall capacity of the tunnel. 

The number of people that would be using the station was also too low for the investments that would be needed to make this station work. And because of the safety issues a increase in passengers would also mean bigger on the operational side, see above paragraph. 

And I would translate a statement like "it has been decided not to do anything that would make it impossible in the future." as we're not going to spend extra money to change the tunnels that have already been built.

It was a nice idea to use this shaft as station, but it simply wasn't feasible. 

btw, thanks for the nice pictures.


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## Coccodrillo

Some caverns were built for Porta Alpina, although they were not planned in the project. These are now useless, but will allow opening of the station in a far future - if this will ever happen.

Beside a regular operation, I think that making some special trains every some years with a visit of the tunnel system, included the shafts and tunnel to Sedrun, would attract some people. Usually when they open for visits the worksites they attract around 4.000 people each time.


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## Deadeye Reloaded

@Coccodrillo: Your pictures are awesome! Excellent job, Herr Eidgenosse! :applause:


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## mgk920

Coccodrillo said:


> The underground cavern for the future branch tunnel to Arth Goldau. If built the underground section will be around 80 km long. This is the eastern tube, where around 8 km of track have been already laid from the north (much less, say around 1 km, in the other tube). On the other side of the tunnel, 50 km south, there are 13 km of track in the western tube (it's there where from autumn 2013 the first electric trains will be tested up to 230 km/h, not more at this stage of works because the track will not be enough long).


Is this looking towards the north portal at Erstfeld? Assuming that that branch is built, how long will trains using line be continually underground?



Mike


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## Coccodrillo

Sure, it is looking north, around 4 km from Erstfeld portal.

How long? A lot...around 80 km/50 miles, I don't know exactly, as it depents whether the crossing of the plain around Brunnen-Ingenbohl is above or below ground. It may vary between 75 and 85 km.

Here are the two portals: http://goo.gl/maps/feah (the position of the northern portal isn't exactly defined yet)

The Ceneri and Zimmerberg base tunnels have such underground junctions, too. The Ceneri would eb extended from 15.4 km/9.6 mi to around 40 km/25 mi, the Zimmerberg from 10 km/6.25 mi to 20 km/12.5 mi.

There would be some additional "shorter" tunnels (~8 km/5 miles each) planned, this means 170 km/106 mi our of around 240 km/150 mi (I don't know the exact figures) between Milan and Zürich. There is then the project for a single track freight-only branch (this one) with around 40 km/25 miles of tunnels.

But all of these are only projects, unlikely to be built before 2050 (if they will be built...), with the exception of the additional 10 km of the Zimmerberg base tunnel (up to 20 km) and a single track 8 km/5 mi bypass tunnel around Bellinzona (with provision for a second track) that may be built before...2040 - but not before 2025.

Beside that on other lines there is the new Lötschberg base tunnel 34.5 km/22 mi long and 5 other railway tunnels varying between 14 and 20 km/9 and 13 miles, including those build in the XIX century and up to the 1920s.


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## slash0r

Woah this tunnel is enormous. Beautiful Switzerland shows rest of the world how to build big things. Congratulations :cheers: I hope that I will pass this tunnel someday  Thanks for photos Coccodrillo.


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## Coccodrillo

The updated PDF describing the project is now available also in English (10 MB):

http://www.alptransit.ch/en/media/publications.html

http://www.alptransit.ch/fileadmin/dateien/shop/broschueren/atg_broschuere_e_2012_lq.pdf

More detailed documents are available in German and/or Italian (See the respective language versions of the website).

Technical documents are here, some also in English: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/media/technical-articles-and-lectures.html

And on Lombardi's website: http://www.lombardi.ch/en/publications/underground-structures (Swiss engineering company that helped with the construction)


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## Coccodrillo

One of the two short artificial tunnels south of the base tunnel. A third track will be posed later on the left, as now the new infrastructure is used as a work road.


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## Sunfuns

In their website about the construction progress they often talk about "concreting the bench" (from German Bankette). I'm never quite sure what exactly it means... As far as I understand this German word usually refers to the hard shoulder of highways. Anyone here can explain what it means in this context?


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## Coccodrillo

I think they are the (prefabricated?) concrete bars that act as walkway and are posed on the side of the tunnel. They also include some "ducts" that will later host cables.

Those on the sides on this photo, under the chemical toilet: http://i50.tinypic.com/nbcaxd.jpg

On the left "bankette" there is what seems to be a gate used to pose and later access the cables.


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> I think they are the (prefabricated?) concrete bars that act as walkway and are posed on the side of the tunnel. They also include some "ducts" that will later host cables.
> 
> Those on the sides on this photo, under the chemical toilet: http://i50.tinypic.com/nbcaxd.jpg
> 
> On the left "bankette" there is what seems to be a gate used to pose and later access the cables.


Thanks


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## StuZealand

AlpTransit has quite a few new pics uploaded of the work in progress on GBT and the Ceneri Base Tunnel:

http://www.alptransit.ch/en/photos/gotthard-base-tunnel.html

http://www.alptransit.ch/en/photos/ceneri-base-tunnel.html


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## Coccodrillo

A view of the junction north of the Ceneri base tunnel. On the right the old rail bridge to Luino and Locarno, on the left the new one which will be moved to the right when the old one will have been demolished. Another bridge will be built parallel to the left for the line to the CBT, so a total of four track will cross the A2 motorway. On the background is one of the two single track viaducts to the CBT. The old Ceneri railway, which will continue to be used, diverges to the left just before the photographer. South of Bellinzona there will thus be a total of three junctions with four branches. Of these four branches, two merges again around 20 km south in Lugano (and then continue to Italy with two tracks), one continues single track to Italy (via Luino) and one ends in Switzerland in Locarno.


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## Don31

Great postingd everyone, thanks for sharing them. We in the US (particularly New Jersey) could learn a few lessons here.


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## Coccodrillo

If problems don't arise, the loading gauge the Gotthard route will be enlarged by 2020, at least on the Swiss side, where most of the tunnels are located. Switzerland may finance works also on Italian territory. Total cost will be around 940 millions, including Italian tunnels. The Gotthard summit route (Erstfeld-Biasca) will obviously not adapted and will keep its existing profile (around PC 60/384). All the base tunnels and their nearby new short cut&cover tunnels are being built with EBV 4 profile, which equals roughly to PC 100/410 or gabarit C, while older tunnels will be enlarged to the slightly smaller EBV 3 profile, still enough for 4 m high trucks.

In Switzerland the planned works are:
* a new Bözberg tunnel will be built (2526 m long)
* enlargement of 8 different short tunnels with a total length of 2335 m
* some others works on the Monte Ceneri section to allow access to Lugano Vedeggio freight yard
* the shifting of a lot of signals, passenger shelters, and similar objects along the whole line

All other tunnels between Basel and Chiasso have been enlarged in the previous years (a total of around 10 km).

I don't know how much work has to be done on the Italian sections (around 8 km of tunnels on the Luino branch, and a single 7.2 km tunnel plus two ~500 m tunnels on the Chiasso-Milano branch).

http://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=46058


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## Coccodrillo

On Saturday 29th September there was an open day at Sigirino, the intermediate access to the Ceneri base tunnel from where most of the tunnel is being bored (around 14.400 m from here, 700 from the north and 300 from the south).

To the right is the excavated material, this new mountain will be covered by grass and vegetation.










The cavern used for the production of concrete. It is parallel to the main tubes and will later be useless, except in case of emergency.


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## Coccodrillo

Equipments are as much as possible hung on the ceiling. If I remember correctly this is the northbound tube, temporarily used as a logistic cavern.










Yellow denotes the bored part, but the short sections bored from the north (700 m) and from the south (300 m) are not shown. The tunnel is on a ramp, the northern portal being at around 250 m, the southern one around 100 m above.


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## Coccodrillo

The overhead platform is mounted on rails, and it is moved forward as the boring proceeds.










Here we see the rails hung to the ceiling and the platforms running below them. There were a lot of families visiting the tunnel, the youngest (and happiest!) visitor being around one year old.


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## Coccodrillo

This machine is used to break in small pieces the bored rock. It runs on continuous tracks and charges the bored material on the belts hung on the ceiling.










The rock face, here around 150 m below the surface. The deepest point of the Ceneri base tunnel is around 800 m below the surface, on the Gotthard base tunnel is around 2300 m.










One of the two access tunnels in Sigirino. One was built between 1997 and 2000 to explore the geology (that's why it continues after the main tubes ending nowhere under the mountain), has a single lane and is now used only to bring in fresh air. This tunnel instead is larger, two trucks can cross each other albeit at low speed, and is the main link to the surface. It also hosts three non reversible conveyors belts, two used to bring out the rock and one used to bring in the material for the production of concrete. Part of this material comes from the bored rocks, partly from quarries as the bored rock is not always suited for concrete (unlike the Gotthard rock).


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Equipments are as much as possible hung on the ceiling. If I remember correctly this is the northbound tube, temporarily used as a logistic cavern.


No, that is the entrance tunnel. (I was there too  )


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## StuZealand

Great photos thanks Cocco.

I assume that those signs above the tunnel entrance in the first pic (410, 420, 430) denote metres above sea level?

Looking at the monthly excavation progress updates, I would estimate that the tubes will be > 90% excavated before any breakthrough to the north or south occurs.

I look forward to more of your excellant photos in the future.


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## Coccodrillo

Yes the entrance is at around 400 m, but I don't know why they put these signs (I haven't seen such signs on other AlpTransit construction sites).

The official planned breakthrough dates are end 2014 for the northern heading and spring 2016 of the southern one (the length to be bored there is shorter, 6 versus 8 km, but being shallower explosions cannot happen at nights - I heard some people living above the boring face that they heard these explosions even 150 m above them). At this moment the northern heading is around 6 months late, and the southern one 6 months ahead of planned schedule (however I don't know if the dates I gave consider this delay or not).

I will certainly post more photos in the future 



K_ said:


> No, that is the entrance tunnel. (I was there too  )


You have reason, I should have noticed the three conveyor belts on the ceiling and the road crash barrier on the right :bash:


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## StuZealand

It's been *two* years today since the first final GBT tunnel breakthrough.


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## Coccodrillo

Construction of two others parts of the AlpTransit project are a step nearer. The government has proposed to build before 2030 the second section of the Zimmerberg Base Tunnel (lengthening it from 10 to 20 km) and to build internal lining, tracks and other railway equipment into 15 km of uncompleted tunnel in the Lötschberg Base Tunnel.

The *Lötschberg Base Tunnel* today is composed of a 35 km eastern tube completed and in service, while of the eastern tube 13 km are in service (on the southern side), 15 km are bored but not completed, and 7 km don't exist at all. There is thus a 22 km section of single track line without any passing loop, that would be reduced to 7 km. The tunnel carries around 110 trains a day, which are sent in batches, but basically southbound (in an average hour, there are 4 southbound and 2 northbound trains). Even with 7 km of single track, the tunnel would be capable to handle the traffic that today use the old Lötschberg line, which is around 400 m above the base tunnel. It had been proposed to finish the tunnel in one time, by also boring the remaining 7 km, but that's unlikely for now.

The *Zimmerberg Base Tunnel* will instead be double track, and supplement the existing Zimmerberg and Albis summit tunnels (2 and 3.3 km respectively) which are single track, with a station for crossings between them.

As for the *Gotthard* and *Ceneri* base tunnels, there are no big news in this period. Construction is progressing, the only "notable" news being the decision to double track 2.6 km of the Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno line, an important feeder line for the Gotthard base tunnel which is impossible to double entirely because it runs between mountains and a lake (just imagine a Norwegian fjord, but on a smaller scale and with warmer climate!).


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> Construction of two others parts of the AlpTransit project are a step nearer. The government has proposed to build before 2030 the second section of the Zimmerberg Base Tunnel (lengthening it from 10 to 20 km) and to build internal lining, tracks and other railway equipment into 15 km of uncompleted tunnel in the Lötschberg Base Tunnel.
> 
> The *Lötschberg Base Tunnel* today is composed of a 35 km eastern tube completed and in service, while of the eastern tube 13 km are in service (on the southern side), 15 km are bored but not completed, and 7 km don't exist at all. There is thus a 22 km section of single track line without any passing loop, that would be reduced to 7 km. The tunnel carries around 110 trains a day, which are sent in batches, but basically southbound (in an average hour, there are 4 southbound and 2 northbound trains). Even with 7 km of single track, the tunnel would be capable to handle the traffic that today use the old Lötschberg line, which is around 400 m above the base tunnel. It had been proposed to finish the tunnel in one time, by also boring the remaining 7 km, but that's unlikely for now.
> 
> The *Zimmerberg Base Tunnel* will instead be double track, and supplement the existing Zimmerberg and Albis summit tunnels (2 and 3.3 km respectively) which are single track, with a station for crossings between them.
> 
> As for the *Gotthard* and *Ceneri* base tunnels, there are no big news in this period. Construction is progressing, the only "notable" news being the decision to double track 2.6 km of the Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno line, an important feeder line for the Gotthard base tunnel which is impossible to double entirely because it runs between mountains and a lake (just imagine a Norwegian fjord, but on a smaller scale and with warmer climate!).


That's good news about the Lötschberg; it's a pity that the last 7 km of tunnel boring weren't done while all the equipment was in place at the time. Another 15 km of usable tunnel will certainly be better than the present situation. Do you know if there are any plans to use the unused branch tunnel to Steg?

Another question, is the southern extension to the Ceneri base tunnel going ahead or will the branch structures be left like the northern Gotthard base tunnel branches? Thanks.

Oh, and the Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno line; is there any technical reason why this line couldn't be fully double tracked by tunnelling through part of the mountain to bypass the area that's too narrow to for an additional track?


----------



## K_

StuZealand said:


> Oh, and the Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno line; is there any technical reason why this line couldn't be fully double tracked by tunnelling through part of the mountain to bypass the area that's too narrow to for an additional track?


Technical not, but financial...

And even partially double tracking it will increase capacity significantly. Trains in Switzerland run on an interval timetable (even the freights...) so they always meet at the same spots. You only need double track where trains actually have to cross.


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## Coccodrillo

StuZealand said:


> That's good news about the Lötschberg; it's a pity that the last 7 km of tunnel boring weren't done while all the equipment was in place at the time. Another 15 km of usable tunnel will certainly be better than the present situation. Do you know if there are any plans to use the unused branch tunnel to Steg?


The branch will not be opened without the 7 km remaining gap, because qith 7 km of single track there wouldn't be enough capacity (or, better said, the increased capacity with the reduction from 22 to 7 km of single track is better used for transit freight traffic and some more InterCity passenger trains).



StuZealand said:


> Another question, is the southern extension to the Ceneri base tunnel going ahead or will the branch structures be left like the northern Gotthard base tunnel branches? Thanks.


Alternatives for that extension are being evaluated but they are unlikely to be built before 30 to 50 years. All of them require crossing Lake Lugano, thus an underwater tunnel or a bridge, and are estimated at more than 5 billion CHF (same value in USD). The Ceneri Base Tunnel would then be extended from 15 to more than 40 km.



StuZealand said:


> Oh, and the Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno line; is there any technical reason why this line couldn't be fully double tracked by tunnelling through part of the mountain to bypass the area that's too narrow to for an additional track?


There are places where there is space for a second track near the existing one, but in many places there isn't, because of the mountain. And where there is space, many houses would have to be destroyed and there would be the problem of the noise generated by trains.

The current project is for a ~20 km single track tunnel north of Luino and for a ~10 km tunnel south of it, plus various connecting tunnels and bridges. These long tunnels would have underground passing loops and the whole infrastructure would likely be operated as two single track lines, not as a double track line (freight trains mainly in the new tunnel line to reduce noise, passenger trains on the old line to serve the towns and villages located here). But nothing is likely to happen before 20 to 30 years.

The 2.6 km that are going to be doubled are on a plain section used for agriculture, that is, where doubling is cheap. But that is enough, with extended passing loops on the existing line, to increase the capacity to 90 trains a day, which is a lot for a single track line (the Lötschberg base tunnel has 110 trains a day, but the single track section is shorter, and used mainly one-way).

I suppose that the southern extension of the Ceneri Base Tunnel and the second Bellinzona-Luino-Laveno line might exclude each other, in other words, if Italy in the future decides to run freight trains more via Luino and west of Milano than via Chiasso (the border station where the extended Ceneri tunnel would end) then this extension might not be built, and vice versa.


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> The 2.6 km that are going to be doubled are on a plain section used for agriculture, that is, where doubling is cheap. But that is enough, with extended passing loops on the existing line, to increase the capacity to 90 trains a day, which is a lot for a single track line (the Lötschberg base tunnel has 110 trains a day, but the single track section is shorter, *and used mainly one-way).*


How does that actually work? Are those freight trains which come back from the North using some other route?


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## Coccodrillo

The timetable is based on passenger trains, then freight trains fill up every remaining slot.

On the base tunnel the pattern is a train every 30-30-60 minutes (10.00, 10.30, 11.00, 12.00, 12.30, 13.00, 14.00, ...), so there it is an hourly service with a superposed two-hourly service, but with exceptions.

Usually a southbound passenger train is followed by three freights (but only one when there is the two-hourly InterCity), while a northbound passenger is followed by a single freight.The remaining freight trains, plus car shuttles and regional passenger trains, use the summit line via Kandersteg-Goppenstein. Even with a 7 km single track gap, all freight trains could pass through the base tunnel.

Map: http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/switzerland/switzerland.gif

Graphic timetables: http://www.quadri-orario.ch/it/archivio/orari-grafici/


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## Coccodrillo

Details of the long term projects can be seen in this PDF:

http://www.bav.admin.ch/php/modules...H4tjTy4am06iDf76Af4SN0NTY0oau3aWWpI3N2pWn6A-- (16MB)

Page 121 for projects south of the GBT, page 145 for those in the north. The language of the text depends of the region involved (DE-FR-IT).

Taken from: http://www.bav.admin.ch/aktuell/vernehmlassung/04086/index.html?lang=it

The Sachplan/plan sectoriel/piano settoriale is used to coordinate any kind of construction, like to avoid planning a railway and an airport, an industrial area or whatever other thing conflicting each other. Nothing is said about costs or technical details (although estimations of them can be found elsewhere).


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> The branch will not be opened without the 7 km remaining gap, because with 7 km of single track there wouldn't be enough capacity (or, better said, the increased capacity with the reduction from 22 to 7 km of single track is better used for transit freight traffic and some more InterCity passenger trains).


Ok, that makes sense; even if it's a waste of resources having the Steg tunnel branch built and unused for the forseeable future. Though perhaps if it hadn't been excavated when the LBT was built, it would've never gone ahead at all?




Coccodrillo said:


> Alternatives for that extension are being evaluated but they are unlikely to be built before 30 to 50 years. All of them require crossing Lake Lugano, thus an underwater tunnel or a bridge, and are estimated at more than 5 billion CHF (same value in USD). The Ceneri Base Tunnel would then be extended from 15 to more than 40 km.


Holy shit that is pricy; about half the cost of the GBT in today's money. I do appreciate that tunnelling under the lake or bridging it would cost a hell of a lot!

Like any country, Switzerland will never have enough money to do all the civil engineering projects that it would like to do. It's always a matter of what can be afforded and making priorities with the resources available.




Coccodrillo said:


> There are places where there is space for a second track near the existing one, but in many places there isn't, because of the mountain. And where there is space, many houses would have to be destroyed and there would be the problem of the noise generated by trains.
> 
> The current project is for a ~20 km single track tunnel north of Luino and for a ~10 km tunnel south of it, plus various connecting tunnels and bridges. These long tunnels would have underground passing loops and the whole infrastructure would likely be operated as two single track lines, not as a double track line (freight trains mainly in the new tunnel line to reduce noise, passenger trains on the old line to serve the towns and villages located here). But nothing is likely to happen before 20 to 30 years.


I had a look on Google street view and satellite view, and yes, it is a tight space between the lake and the mountain side for any extra railway lines to be installed.


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> How does that actually work? Are those freight trains which come back from the North using some other route?


I forgot to explain why most trains through the LBT travel southbound.

By weight, around 2/3 of transalpine rail freight travel southbound, and 1/3 northbound. Then, southbound the maximum uphill grade is just 15‰, while northbound the maximum slope is 27‰ (between Domodossola and Iselle, just before the Simplon tunnel).

To compare, the Gotthard base line will have a maximum grade of 12% on the Luino branch, but 20‰ on the Ceneri-Chiasso branch (not in the Ceneri base tunnel itself, but between its southern portal and the plain near Chiasso). So there will be a flat line between northern Europe and Italy, but only partially single track via Luino.



StuZealand said:


> Ok, that makes sense; even if it's a waste of resources having the Steg tunnel branch built and unused for the forseeable future. Though perhaps if it hadn't been excavated when the LBT was built, it would've never gone ahead at all?


I suspect that the last phrase is true. However, there are two more reasons to have built this branch now:

1) it hosts high-voltage cables to feed the trains in the tunnel (providing also a road access for now)

2) on the main southern portal there is little space, so a flatter and bigger area near the branch portal was more practical to install a works site for a TBM (another TBM has been assembled for the eastern tube on the very cramped southern portal)



StuZealand said:


> I had a look on Google street view and satellite view, and yes, it is a tight space between the lake and the mountain side for any extra railway lines to be installed.


Note that the Luino branch was initially (1870s) planned to be the main route to Italy, leaving the Ceneri-Chiasso line a secondary role, but they quickly swapped importance. The Ceenri-Chiasso line was electrified around 1920-1930, while the Luino branch had to wait 1960 or so, and it still is an obsolete traffic management system (but it will be upgraded to modern standards by the opening of the GBT).


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> I forgot to explain why most trains through the LBT travel southbound.
> 
> By weight, around 2/3 of transalpine rail freight travel southbound, and 1/3 northbound. Then, southbound the maximum uphill grade is just 15‰, while northbound the maximum slope is 27‰ (between Domodossola and Iselle, just before the Simplon tunnel).
> 
> To compare, the Gotthard base line will have a maximum grade of 12% on the Luino branch, but 20‰ on the Ceneri-Chiasso branch (not in the Ceneri base tunnel itself, but between its southern portal and the plain near Chiasso). So there will be a flat line between northern Europe and Italy, but only partially single track via Luino.


Thanks a lot. Those kind of details are not easily found with just google.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ This also means that empty or lightly loaded trains usually run via the old line (and a certain amount of them are northbound), while loaded trains on the base line (like most RoLa / RoRo trains).


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## Coccodrillo

A locomotive with an advertisement for the AlpTransit project has been presented on 15th November in Erstfeld (GBT's northern portal). The engine with three coaches has been pushed out of the western tube by a diesel loco, giving a hint of what will look that spot within 4 years. Around 20 km of tracks have been laid in the eastern tube from the north, 5 km in the western tube from the north, and 15 km in the western tube from the south. Until now, the south-eastern tube has been used to transport construction material using 900 mm gauge trains (slightly less than 3 feet). From now construction material will be transported using standard gauge trains in the western tube, so that track lying can start also in the eastern tube.

The first 4 minutes of this video are nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFYc017uJPU (while the other 16 minutes are a just a speech of the CEO of AlpTransit and another person)


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## StuZealand

Good video, thanks. Pity that I don't speak or understand any German.


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## hans280

StuZealand said:


> Good video, thanks. Pity that I don't speak or understand any German.


Wouldn't make much of difference: the second speaker, in particular, speaks such as strong Swiss dialect that most Germans would be unable to understand. :lol:


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## Coccodrillo

The SBB launched a call for bid for a notable number of maintenance vehicles: 44 of various types, with options to bring the total to 71. These are planned for the GBT and CBT, but I don't know if they will also be used on other sections of the Gotthard railway.

https://www.simap.ch/shabforms/COMMON/search/projectOverview.jsf


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## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> The SBB launched a call for bid for a notable number of maintenance vehicles: 44 of various types, with options to bring the total to 71. These are planned for the GBT and CBT, but I don't know if they will also be used on other sections of the Gotthard railway.
> 
> https://www.simap.ch/shabforms/COMMON/search/projectOverview.jsf


SBB actually plans to replace most of its maintenance fleet by 2018. So one can expect more calls for bids, where SBB has the ambition in the long run to reduce the number of different types they have, so vehicles can be pooled. So it's quite possible these vehicles will see use over a large part of the network.


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## Qtya

Progress report?


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## Coccodrillo

Works is going on without spectacular events. Around 30% of the tracks have been laid, and works for the Giustizia junction (one of the two on the southern end) started, being the last "big" group of works to start. It includes a short 64 m tunnel under a road (actually it's more a "wide bridge" than a tunnel, as it is above ground with the road climbing over it, but it's still considered a tunnel).

Progression of rail infrastructure works can bee seen here: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-of-the-work/railway-infrastructure.html (open the PDF below to see the image with English legend)

North of the Ceneri tunnel the viaducts are under construction, around 500 m of them can be seen, but they are not very tall as they are above a plain and just needed to cross roads and the Locarno-Ceneri-Locarno chord (there will be a jucntion just before the end of the tunnel). Two road underpasses are nearly finished, one of them 80 m long and with 4 lanes (for the A13).


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## Luganese1980

Coccodrillo said:


> North of the Ceneri tunnel the viaducts are under construction, around 500 m of them can be seen, but they are not very tall as they are above a plain and just needed to cross roads and the Locarno-Ceneri-Locarno chord (there will be a jucntion just before the end of the tunnel). Two road underpasses are nearly finished, one of them 80 m long and with 4 lanes (for the A13).


When is the Ceneri-breakthrough planned? 2014?


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## Sunfuns

2015 if I remember correctly which does seem a bit long considering how much has been excavated already


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## Luganese1980

Sunfuns said:


> 2015 if I remember correctly which does seem a bit long considering how much has been excavated already


Thanks. It seems quite long to me too.


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## StuZealand

Luganese1980 said:


> Thanks. It seems quite long to me too.


There are 39.8 km of tunnels in total. 23.5 km have been excavated to date, leaving 16.3 km to be excavated. The miners are averaging around 500 metres per month (in all four headings combined).

At this rate of progress, it'll be just over 32 months before excavation is complete, which would be October 2015 (Assuming the monthly 500 metres is maintained).


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## Coccodrillo

The Ae 6/6 11501 will soon be used for test runs in the 15 km of the western tube completed to the south. It is a locomotive built in the 1950s, at its last practical use before being scrapped (or being put in a museum, who knows?). It will be the first electric train to run into the tunnel.

The track link between the base line and the old line is still a temporary one, so it's likely that the electrified part of the base line will still be not directly connected to the main network.


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## Bart_LCY

From Jungfraumedia channel on Youtube:

Visit to Gotthard and Ceneri Base Tunnels on 14th of February 2013:


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## StuZealand

Bart_LCY said:


> From Jungfraumedia channel on Youtube:
> 
> Visit to Gotthard and Ceneri Base Tunnels on 14th of February 2013:


Thanks, that was really awesome to see so much of the completed tunnel works and to be able to travel inside the tunnels. :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

Between Saturday 9-3-2013 and the next Monday one of the two new bridges over the A2 just north of the CBT's northern portal has been moved by nearly 15 metres. It was built on the side of the old bridge, which has been demolished. The new bridge has been used during the demolition of the old one before being moved to be used for the Locarno/Luino line. Another double track bridge will be built to be used by the Ceneri base line. The new bridge weights 4000 tonnes, is 100 m long and 14 m wide. The motorway has not been closed during the move of the bridge (the railway remained closed from midday on Saturday until 5 am on Monday).










An accelerated video:






Two other viaducts are under construction nearby, of 500 (southbound track of the base line) and 1000 m (northbound track) in length respectively, as well as two road underpasses (of which one with four lanes and around 100 m covered).


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> Between Saturday 9-3-2013 and the next Monday one of the two new bridges over the A2 just north of the CBT's northern portal has been moved by nearly 15 metres. It was built on the side of the old bridge, which has been demolished. The new bridge has been used during the demolition of the old one before being moved to be sued for the Locarno/Luino line. Another double track bridge will be built to be used by the Ceneri base line. The new bridge weights 4000 tonnes, is 100 m long and 14 m wide. The motorway has not been closed during the move of the bridge (the railway remained closed from midday on Saturday until 5 am on Monday).
> 
> 
> Two other viaducts are under construction nearby, of 500 (southbound track of the base line) and 1000 m (northbound track) in length respectively, as well as two road underpasses (of which one with four lanes and around 100 m covered).


Thanks Cocco. AlpTransit has a couple of pics of the bridge on their site also.
http://www.alptransit.ch/en/photos/ceneri-base-tunnel/camorino.html

Will you be attending the next open day at Camorino on 27 April?


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## Coccodrillo

StuZealand said:


> Will you be attending the next open day at Camorino on 27 April?


Probably yes.


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## Coccodrillo

Gotthardbahn trough Pollegio/TI, on a section of line which will be replaced by new tracks (on the right) to allow the connection to the Gotthard base tunnel. The train stop visible in the video, Pollegio, was closed in the 80s or 90s. I will publish a video when the new section opens, likely around Winter 2013/2014.






Direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOn3TpN1atQ


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## Coccodrillo

One track of that new line will open on 7 July, the other on 14 July, allowing the demolition of the old line.

Here the 5 new tracks: two for the new alignment of the old line, two for the base line, and one where south-north freights will stop to be overtaken by passenger trains before entering the Tunnel. North-south freights will switch from the base line to the old line there. The two lines meet each other again around 6 km south, where the new line ends.










The two track today in sue will be connected to the two on the right. The nearly completed south-north base line running track can be seen, before the end of the year test trains will start running on it up to 230 km/h and up to 16 km inside the mountain. Note that the other tunnel tube still hosts the narrow gauge line used to transport construction materials.

(I'm sure they will try to go over 300 km/h in tests when the tunnel will be finished, but I suppose now the track is too short and the infrastructure too new to try)










The other side of the diversion, with a temporary switch and the two definitive tracks being laid. On the background the new triple track line.










Now the Faido work site. The building under construction with the two red-white cranes is a service building hiding the 2,7 km access tunnel. The other tunnelling infrastructure is being dismantled.










The Amsteg work site has been completely removed, and now is just a flat area covered by gravel. It will later be covered by grass, or maybe converted to a field.


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## StuZealand

^^

Thanks for all the great pics Cocco. Just a question:
Will the branch from the north be a level one? Meaning that one train will have to stop and wait for another train to cross? Much like you would have to in a car at an intersection?

The southern branch where the Ceneri Base Tunnel starts appears to be the same: a level crossing.


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## Coccodrillo

Yes, all five connections will be flat, except the one in Erstfeld (GBT north), where the southbound track of the old line will go over the base line.

However, south of the GBT there will be two junctions, arranged in a way so that conflicting movements (such as the one you cited) will be minimized. I made a diagram to explain why, omitting tracks and switches not relevant in the day-to-day usage. 1-2-3 are Biasca's station tracks, A-B-C-D-E are tracks around Pollegio junction, X-Y are tracks to the south.

Let's start with main traffic flows: intercity passenger and freights (traffic runs on the left).

* northbound IC: comes on track X, after Giustizia junction continues straight on track B
* northbound freight: like the IC, but then goes on track A, so that an IC can run at speed on B (actually there will be batches of three freights stopping on A, then being overtaken by an IC, so that when these freight are on the other side of the tunnel they can be overtaken by the next IC, the same principle happens in the other direction)
* southbound IC: exit the tunnel on C then continues on Y
* southbound freight: exit the tunnel on track C, uses the diagonal track, then track E, Biasca's track 2, then track Y (three freights do that, so meanwhile an IC overtake them on track C)

But then there are the other trains.

* regional train from Bellinzona to Biasca: arrives on X, then goes on track 1 in Biasca and after some time reverse, going back on Y ==> it intersects southbound ICs (in Giustizia junction), but not southbound freights
* regional train from Bellinzona to Biasca and then the old line (tracks D and E): they are in conflict with the IC as the case above but only twice per hour, they are also in conflict with southbound freights but this crossing can be moved from Pollegio to Biasca ==> such regional train can thus change running side in Biasca going on track 2, then E, while a freight exiting the tunnel from C would run on track D ==> freights and regional would cross each other on the right (instead from the left) between Biasca and Pollegio, thus southbound freights trains don't have to stop inside the tunnel to wait a Biasca-Summit Line train to pass ==> no conflict in this problematic point
* regional trains summit line > track E > track 2 in Biasca station > track Y don't pose a problem, if they are timed correctly

Note that I'm not aware of any plan of IC trains stopping in Biasca and coming from/going to the tunnel, in this case southbound ICs wouldn't pose a problem, while northbound ICs might pose a little conflict and would have to be carefully timed. Obviously these latter would switch from track D to track B of the tunnel using a track link I have not shown in the drawing.










As for the Ceneri base tunnel, north of it there will be a flat junction for trains CBT-Bellinzona and viceversa, while trains CBT-Locarno and viceversa aren't in conflict with the previous flow (this single track link run below the northbound track to Bellinzona). In addition to that, a third track might be built between Giubiasco and Bellinzona. Giubiasco is where the Ceneri summit line, Ceneri base line, and the Locarno line, all double track, join each other on two tracks. If it is built then the Bellinzona-Giubiasco-Locarno (or Luino) passenger trains might use only the third track, without having to cross the main north-south line. In this case only some freights (Gotthard-Bellinzona-Luino and beyond) would have to cross other trains (Ceneri-Bellinzona-Gotthard).

The link near the southern portal will be flat, because it's on the side of a hill with no way to build overpasses for one track at a reasonable cost. However most trains will use the base tunnel, not the Ceneri's summit line, so that conflicting movements will not be too many (only two southbound regional trains per hour would have to cross the main northbound flow).


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> Yes, all five connections will be flat, except the one in Erstfeld (GBT north), where the southbound track of the old line will go over the base line.
> 
> However, south of the GBT there will be two junctions, arranged in a way so that conflicting movements (such as the one you cited) will be minimized. I made a diagram to explain why, omitting tracks and switches not relevant in the day-to-day usage. 1-2-3 are Biasca's station tracks, A-B-C-D-E are tracks around Pollegio junction, X-Y are tracks to the south.
> 
> Let's start with main traffic flows: intercity passenger and freights (traffic runs on the left).
> 
> * northbound IC: comes on track X, after Giustizia junction continues straight on track B
> * northbound freight: like the IC, but then goes on track A, so that an IC can run at speed on B (actually there will be batches of three freights stopping on A, then being overtaken by an IC, so that when these freight are on the other side of the tunnel they can be overtaken by the next IC, the same principle happens in the other direction)
> * southbound IC: exit the tunnel on C then continues on Y
> * southbound freight: exit the tunnel on track C, uses the diagonal track, then track E, Biasca's track 2, then track Y (three freights do that, so meanwhile an IC overtake them on track C)
> 
> But then there are the other trains.
> 
> * regional train from Bellinzona to Biasca: arrives on X, then goes on track 1 in Biasca and after some time reverse, going back on Y ==> it intersects southbound ICs (in Giustizia junction), but not southbound freights
> * regional train from Bellinzona to Biasca and then the old line (tracks D and E): they are in conflict with the IC as the case above but only twice per hour, they are also in conflict with southbound freights but this crossing can be moved from Pollegio to Biasca ==> such regional train can thus change running side in Biasca going on track 2, then E, while a freight exiting the tunnel from C would run on track D ==> freights and regional would cross each other on the right (instead from the left) between Biasca and Pollegio, thus southbound freights trains don't have to stop inside the tunnel to wait a Biasca-Summit Line train to pass ==> no conflict in this problematic point
> * regional trains summit line > track E > track 2 in Biasca station > track Y don't pose a problem, if they are timed correctly
> 
> Note that I'm not aware of any plan of IC trains stopping in Biasca and coming from/going to the tunnel, in this case southbound ICs wouldn't pose a problem, while northbound ICs might pose a little conflict and would have to be carefully timed. Obviously these latter would switch from track D to track B of the tunnel using a track link I have not shown in the drawing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Ceneri base tunnel, north of it there will be a flat junction for trains CBT-Bellinzona and viceversa, while trains CBT-Locarno and viceversa aren't in conflict with the previous flow (this single track link run below the northbound track to Bellinzona). In addition to that, a third track might be built between Giubiasco and Bellinzona. Giubiasco is where the Ceneri summit line, Ceneri base line, and the Locarno line, all double track, join each other on two tracks. If it is built then the Bellinzona-Giubiasco-Locarno (or Luino) passenger trains might use only the third track, without having to cross the main north-south line. In this case only some freights (Gotthard-Bellinzona-Luino and beyond) would have to cross other trains (Ceneri-Bellinzona-Gotthard).
> 
> The link near the southern portal will be flat, because it's on the side of a hill with no way to build overpasses for one track at a reasonable cost. However most trains will use the base tunnel, not the Ceneri's summit line, so that conflicting movements will not be too many (only two southbound regional trains per hour would have to cross the main northbound flow).


Thanks a lot for that detailed explanation. If there wasn't careful management of this, a major head on or side on crash could occur between two trains at any of these 'intersections'.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ With modern ATP systems like the ETCS that shouldn't occur in any case...


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## Suburbanist

The problem with the lack of flyovers in Switzerland is that it constrains for decades the maximum speed and the operating patterns of trains. 

Ideally, important rail junctions should be always grade-separated. That way, if protocols of ECTS are vastly improving and new braking technologies deployed, you can speed up trains without having to invest billions of CHF because some bureaucrat at FSS decided station x can only be served by trains every 30 minutes such that another path is not crossed by an incoming train. 

You should always overbuild infrastructure to allow for future changes by having it at overcapacity.


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## Coccodrillo

Apparently at least a viewing point will be built at the bottom of the Sedrun shaft, so that visits to the tunnel infrastructure can be organized, with a view of the southbound track. Another viewing point might be built in Amsteg. Visits to the Lötschberg base tunnel are already possible, but not to the traffic tubes.

The eastern tube is being used from the south to transport materials into the mountain with standard gauge trains.

The Ceneri base tunnel is being excavated from a middle access tunnel. Progression south from there is good, but north of this access is one year late. Unfortunately, the tunnel cannot be bored from the north because of nimbysm and tracks cannot be easily laid in the already bored and lined tunnel because they have to be laid preferably from the north, as in the middle and southern work sites there is not much space.

More info on the annual summary of the status of the works: http://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=48366 (de-fr-it, there are reports also for other projects)


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> The problem with the lack of flyovers in Switzerland is that it constrains for decades the maximum speed and the operating patterns of trains.


The problem is that workers in Europe don't like to work for free, material suppliers pretend to be paid, inhabitants want to be compensated if their house has to be demolished to make space for a public work, citizens don't like to have their money wasted, and so on.

Ah, if only we all lived as slaves in a dictatorship, things would be far easier to build...


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> The Ceneri base tunnel is being excavated from a middle access tunnel. Progression south from there is good, but north of this access is one year late. Unfortunately, the tunnel cannot be bored from the north because of nimbysm and tracks cannot be easily laid in the already bored and lined tunnel because they have to be laid preferably from the north, as in the middle and southern work sites there is not much space.


Yes, that is quite apparent from AlpTransit's monthly progress graphic. Northbound remaining to be excavated is about twice of Southbound; even though they can blast 24/7 to the North. I wonder if the planned 2019 opening date will prove too optimistic?


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## StuZealand

Suburbanist said:


> The problem with the lack of flyovers in Switzerland is that it constrains for decades the maximum speed and the operating patterns of trains.
> 
> Ideally, important rail junctions should be always grade-separated. That way, if protocols of ECTS are vastly improving and new braking technologies deployed, you can speed up trains without having to invest billions of CHF because some bureaucrat at FSS decided station x can only be served by trains every 30 minutes such that another path is not crossed by an incoming train.
> 
> You should always overbuild infrastructure to allow for future changes by having it at overcapacity.


Even if all these junctions were grade-separated. it wouldn't solve the issue of two (for example) North bound tracks merging into one track. One (slower) train would potentially still have to wait for another (faster) train to get onto the single line ahead of it.

As I see it, the main advantage of grade-separation would be to prevent a North bound train from having to cross thru a South bound line (or vice versa) to merge with the other North bound track.


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## steple

Some pictures from http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Ende-Jahr-rauschen-Zuege-mit-230-kmh-durch-den-NeatTunnel/story/18193184


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The problem with the lack of flyovers in Switzerland is that it constrains for decades the maximum speed and the operating patterns of trains.


The problem with you is that you make up facts. Like a supposed lack of fly overs. Have you every taken a train in Switzerland?



> Ideally, important rail junctions should be always grade-separated. That way, if protocols of ECTS are vastly improving and new braking technologies deployed, you can speed up trains without having to invest billions of CHF because some bureaucrat at FSS decided station x can only be served by trains every 30 minutes such that another path is not crossed by an incoming train.


Actually new protocols allow you to operate the same number of trains, or even more trains, with less infrastructure...


> You should always overbuild infrastructure to allow for future changes by having it at overcapacity.


No you shouldn't. Infrastructure is very expensive. Overbuilding it will bankrupt a country. And Switzerland can't ask the Germans to bail them out like the Italians apparently expect. 
It remains strange that you are against making efficient investments when it's tax payer's money that is involved.


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## Coccodrillo

StuZealand said:


> Yes, that is quite apparent from AlpTransit's monthly progress graphic. Northbound remaining to be excavated is about twice of Southbound; even though they can blast 24/7 to the North. I wonder if the planned 2019 opening date will prove too optimistic?


According to an official report I could briefly see but not photocopy, the breakthrough between the northern and central headings of the CBT will be between January 2015 and September 2016, for the central-southern section between May 2015 and September 2016. Opening of the tunnel should be between December 2019 and August 2021 according to the breakthrough date (and to other unexpected problems, if they arise).


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> According to an official report I could briefly see but not photocopy, the breakthrough between the northern and central headings of the CBT will be between January 2015 and September 2016, for the central-southern section between May 2015 and September 2016. Opening of the tunnel should be between December 2019 and August 2021 according to the breakthrough date (and to other unexpected problems, if they arise).


That's a lot of variability for the breakthrough date considering that more than 50% of the tunnel has been dug already...


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## Augustão d2

as the tunnel already concreted?


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> That's a lot of variability for the breakthrough date considering that more than 50% of the tunnel has been dug already...


Well, there's a lot of uncertainty regarding the stuff they'll tunnelling through. And in the southern section as they progress they get closer to the surface and may, or may not, have to slow down.


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## Coccodrillo

Augustão d2 said:


> as the tunnel already concreted?


Do you mean lined?

If so, it's yes for the GBT, no for the CBT (except a few metres).

See here: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-of-the-work/raw-construction.html


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## timo9

:applause:


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## Sunfuns

By the way, judging by their own progress reports at alptransit.ch, the basi construction work is very close to being finished with only Faido emergency station and one tube of the southern Faido-Bodio segment. Couple more months perhaps? Anyone remembers when the first in tunnel train testing is supposed to start? Was it next spring?


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## Coccodrillo

On the first 14 km from the south of the western bore tests with electric trains will start before the end of the year, at up to 230 km/h. The other bore here is without track.

On this track and on the 20 km of the two tubes from the north standard gauge trains have been running for some time, to build the tracks themselves but also to supply material to other points of the tunnel (for example, there is a RoLa/ro-ro train service transporting trucks from the southern base to Faido underground complex).


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## StuZealand

Did anyone attend the latest open day on the 27th?


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## Coccodrillo

I went, as at any open day held in the last years.

First, the southern portal area. The thick blue line is a road tunnel, drawn on its side there is its safety tunnel and more to the right an utility tunnel (cables for electricity, etc). The green lines are variants for the planned extension (unlikely before 2050).










The northern portal, with the main line going straight into Sementina tunnel (not before 2040), and with the many chords linking the lines.

Note that the old bridge above the A2 has been replaced by a new 4-tracks bridge, stupidly with only two lanes+shoulders per direction. This is doubly stupid as the southbound carriageway of the motorway has already 3 lanes on both sides of the bridge, so there always be a short section with only 2 lanes. In the opposite direction south of the bridge there are already two lanes, so it will not be the only bottleneck. Maybe a 3+2 layout without shoulders under the bridge will be possible, in future.










Five lines converge here. In black there are the existing lines (including the one to Lugano), in red what is under construction, in green what is for the far future. As a temporary solution waiting for the green line, a third track will be built between Giubiasco (shown in the plan below) and Bellinzona, including a short but difficult 300 m tunnel (it will be shallow and has to be built in a city and under a castle).


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## Coccodrillo

The 500 m southbound bridge in the foreground and the 1000 m northbound bridge in the background.










Three tracks will enter the mountain here, two in the tube on the left and one on the right. The right tube is higher, because it is directly linked to the 1000 m bridge of the photo above.










The two tracks will be separated by a wall and will diverge inside the tunnel. The three tracks will be, from left to right: Bellinzona-Lugano, Lugano-Locarno and Lugano-Bellinzona. Locarno-Lugano track will join the Bellinzona-Lugano track outside the tunnel (actually the switch will be partially inside the tunnel). There is only one track to Locarno, see the drawing above.










I will continue posting pictures this evening.


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## Coccodrillo

Southbound (eastern) tunnel on the left, link tunnel with the northbound tube on the right. There will be no switches inside this cavern, as a wall will be built splitting the cavern in two.










The two centre tracks (to/from Locarno) merge into one on the left, that then joins the double track line.










A section waiting to be lined.


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## Coccodrillo

The structure used to build the definitive lining. In this particular point the tunnel is already lined, the structure has been put here just to show it.










In this photos, all layers can bee seen. On the right the sprayed concrete, just over the rock. Then the black sheet of syntethic material to isolate the tunnel from water. Then the metal bars before being sunk into concrete, as can be seen below the bars.










This cavern is at the other end of the link tunnel of the first photo of previous post. On the left the Bellinzona-bound track, climbing a few meters because it has then to pass on the 1000 m viaduct over the Locarno track, which is on the right in this photo.










(bigger version: http://i44.tinypic.com/332t4bb.jpg)


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## Coccodrillo

The N13 underpass, around 400 m long of which 80 covered. It will open this June.

The first photo in post #727 shows the bridges in the same point.










(bigger version: http://i41.tinypic.com/i3axx4.jpg)

The Bellinzona-Locarno track pass the road with the 500 m bridge which will be completed after the opening of the underpass (because it lies at he same level as the N13 diversion road).










Finally the Bellinzona side of the two bridges.










That's all for now!

********************************

As a bonus, two photos of the track works on the open south of the GBT: http://www.bahnforum.ch/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=1910&pageNo=2


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## Wilhem275

Nice improvement from last year, thanks for the details of the lining.
(Is this the place we met at, right?).


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## StuZealand

Excellent photos as always, thank you cocco. I find your pics to be often a lot more informative than some of the ones on AlpTransit's site.

Couple of questions for you:
* Was there any talk about the progress of excavation at Sigirino? A few weeks ago you said that it was estimated to be about a year behind schedule in the drive to the north.

* How far into the tunnel were you allowed to walk?


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## K_

Anything known about the next open day? Unfortunately couldn't make it this time.


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## Coccodrillo

Hi to all

1) boring from Sigirino to the north is around 15 months late, and the opening of the tunnel might be delayed by at least at year, although they are doing everything to keep the timetable. Unfortunately some NIMBYs forbid to continue excavation also from the north.

2) until the end of the western tube (see photo below), around 700 m into the mountain. It was planned to continue an additional 2 km from there.

3) probably next Autumn, in another work site (likely Erstfeld or Biasca, extremely unlikely Sedrun). Check regularly AlpTransit's website for the exact date. Note that details about the open days are given only in German and sometimes also Italian.

In the photo below you can see the end of the western tube, around 700 m from the portal. There is only the sprayed concrete lining, as the definitive one will be built only when the Sigirino heading will arrive, probably in 2015 (or maybe 2016). Note that the lining seems solid, but actually breaks easily in dust. Other sprayed concrete linings are less dusty, so if you ever come into a tunnel under construction, consider that dust can enter the optical lenses of your camera and damage them forever (that's why I haven't used my main camera for these photos). The photo is taken in the same tube but looking in the opposite direction of the last photo of post #729.


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> boring from Sigirino to the north is around 15 months late, and the opening of the tunnel might be delayed by at least at year, although they are doing everything to keep the timetable. Unfortunately some NIMBYs forbid to continue excavation also from the north.


That's a pity about the NIMBY attitude. Because of this, the project drags on perhaps a year or more longer than it would otherwise; benefitting no one in the long term.


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> Really? In that case how is the work on post-Gotthard/Ceneri base tunnel timetable proceeding? :cheers:





K_ said:


> Quite well I assume. Some details have already been published. The definitive timetable will be ready in 2014, for an opening in December 2016.


That's one option. Nothing has been officially defined, but the map I made is probably a realistic option for the CBT.










The Mendrisio-Varese line is under construction and may open in 2015. From Varese going towards Mendrisio there is another branch to Porto Ceresio, currently closed for rebuilding.

Frequency is also not defined, but the more likely off-peak service level is:
S10 every 60'
S20 every 30' (later in the future maybe every 15')
S30 every 120' (because of many freight trains on a single track), some more trains between Luino and Gallarate
S40 every 60'
S50 every 60'
RE every 60' (every 30' between Locarno and Lugano, without stop in Mendrisio)
IC/EC every 30' (every 60' south of Lugano)

Some peak-hour trains are likely to be added, increasing the number of logic lines/stopping patterns, like some Bellinzona-Giubiasco-CBT-Lugano-all stops-Chiasso trains.

Connections are likely to be proposed in all nodes, so to have fast connections between Milano and Locarno (changing in Lugano), Varese and Bellinzona (also in Lugano, RE+IC/EC, faster than the direct S50), Varese and Como (S50+S10 alternating with the direct S40), and so on.

As for the GBT, one possibility is an hourly Basel-Zürich-Lugano-Milano together with an hourly Luzern-Lugano service (maybe coming from Geneva via Berne?), with no more direct trains between Luzern (Lucerne) and Milano. On the old Gotthard line an option is serving it with the S10 (or the S50), which would then terminate somewhere in Canton Uri.

As I said, all these are speculations of myself, but based on what has been said in various occasions. Many things can still change, but my draft should be quite correct.


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## Sunfuns

Do you think there is a chance of Basel-Milano via GBT? It would be particularly convenient for me 

Currently there are few trains a day going via Lotschberg-Simplon route and taking a bit more than 4 h. After opening both base tunnels a 3 h journey on that route ought to be possible. Assuming of course there are enough slots for such a service... Perhaps it could even originate somewhere in Germany.


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> Do you think there is a chance of Basel-Milano via GBT? It would be particularly convenient for me


The question is not if there will be Basel-Gotthard-Milano trains, but how many of them and if via Lucerne or if via Zürich. They will take less than via the Simplon-Lötschberg, but hardly less than 3h45.

Some Basel-Milano trains via the Simplon-Lötschberg are likely to survive.


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> The question is not if there will be Basel-Gotthard-Milano trains, but how much of them and if via Lucerne or if via Zürich. They will take less than via the Simplon-Lötschberg, *but hardly less than 3h45.*


You are right, 3 h would probably only get me to Lugano (3h45 now). That last stretch is so slow...


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## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Do you think there is a chance of Basel-Milano via GBT? It would be particularly convenient for me
> 
> Currently there are few trains a day going via Lotschberg-Simplon route and taking a bit more than 4 h. After opening both base tunnels a 3 h journey on that route ought to be possible. Assuming of course there are enough slots for such a service... Perhaps it could even originate somewhere in Germany.


The planned service is like this:

- Hourly EC Milano - GBT - Arth Goldau and then alternating to Luzern - Basel and Zürich.
- Hourly IC Zürich - Lugano. This train will run half an hour after the EC.
- Hourly IR Locarno - Gotthard (old route) Arth Goldau and then alternating to Basel and Zürich. 

The EC and IR will (as is now also the case) be timed such that with an easy transfer in Arth Goldau an hourly service on both Zürich and Basel - Luzern to Milano via the GBT is realised.
I would expect the IC train to be timed such that there is a connection in Arth Goldau with a train to Luzern as well.

This way an half hourly service between the North of Switzerland and Ticino is created, and an hourly service to Milano.


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## Coccodrillo

Detailed schemes of the progress of the works can be found here: http://www.bav.admin.ch/alptransit/01370/01373/index.html?lang=it (the 4 PDF files on the right)

If I read them correctly, around 4 km have to be excavated to the north of the CBT, and 2.5 km to the south.

More detailed reports of works can be found here (de-fr-it): http://www.parlament.ch/i/dokumenta...t-aufsichtsdelegation-nad/Pagine/default.aspx


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## Rayancito

Is there a Milan Lugano High speed line on project? The actual time between this 2 cities is terrible.


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## Suburbanist

Rayancito said:


> Is there a Milan Lugano High speed line on project? The actual time between this 2 cities is terrible.


There are some projects on the Swiss side. 

The problem is that the Swiss split their monies on two half-jobs under the Alps: the single-tracked Lötschberg tunnel and the Gotthard base tunnel. This left Italy without an incentive to build a full-grade HSL to either.

Had they chosen just one of the links, Italy might have agreed to chime in with another HSL. But full HSR link Bern-Lugano will not be accomplished in our lifetimes, realistically, as they are obsessed with timetables instead of capacity and speed. So Italy has no incentive to order a HSL Milano-Chiasso or Milano-Brig (with new Sempione high-speed tunnel)


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## Wilhem275

There are many steps between the existing situation and a full HSL. What is missing on the Italian side is not HS but a decent plan to improve the existing lines, which could and should be done to match with what's going on on the Swiss side.
Remember that HS railway may improve point to point passengers travel time, but left standing alone brings few to no advantages to all the rest of rail traffic.

The two half-jobs are not an excuse: it was not the Swiss' choice, the corridors are in fact two.
An improvement is going on on the Lötschberg axis, nothing on the Simplon line, and that's the problem.


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## Coccodrillo

Rayancito said:


> Is there a Milan Lugano High speed line on project? The actual time between this 2 cities is terrible.


The problem is not the travel time, which is acceptable, but the low number of trains and the difficulty to buy tickets and to change them if you want to take another train (but Suburbanist will probably find that a good thing).



Suburbanist said:


> Had they chosen just one of the links...


Had they chosen just one of the links, none of them would have been built. The Lötschberg base tunnel has been built only to allow the referendum pass (it passed in 1992 with 66% of "yes"). If it wasn't proposed, the Gotthard base tunnel (which is and always will be the main transit axis) alone would have not been accepted. Just think that a third base line (Chur-Splügen-Lecco-Tirano) was also planned but has been quickly refused mainly because it didn't serve Swiss national traffic, but only the international one.



Suburbanist said:


> But full HSR link Bern-Lugano will not be accomplished in our lifetimes, realistically, as they are obsessed with timetables instead of capacity and speed.


It is always easy being generous with other people's money. It is exactly because the Swiss care much about capacity and speed for as much people as possible that they carefully plan the timetable.

Sure some trips will take too much time for centuries from now, like Brig-Lugano (3h50 by train, like I did yesterday, or 2h30 by car, for 80 km as the crow flies), but there are the Alps in between and Italy in between, which is not interested at all to improve such link (which is obvious, as it is nearly useless for Italian national traffic).

When planning the AlpTransit project many options were considered, one of them being a direct link Lugano-Locarno-Meiringen-Bern/Lucerne. IMHO it would have been a better choice than simply building a lower tunnel on an existing route as it is being done now. This "Gotthard West" project would have meant a slightly longer travel time for Milano-Lugano-Zürich trains, but a much quicker trip from Lugano to Bern (and Lausanne/Geneva). However it is obvious that now it can't be constructed, meaning that Switzerland will have a wall separating its western and eastern parts for two thirds of its north-south extension.



Wilhem275 said:


> The two half-jobs are not an excuse: it was not the Swiss' choice, the corridors are in fact two.
> An improvement is going on on the Lötschberg axis, nothing on the Simplon line, and that's the problem.


The Simplon-Lötschberg railway increased traffic a lot in the last few years, with freight reaching 10 million tonnes annually (Gotthard: 16), but the main axis remains the Gotthard, and Italy should concentrate its effort on that (either via Luino or via Chiasso), keeping its part of the Simplon line in good conditions but without building new tracks there.


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## Rayancito

I asked in the first place for Milano Lugano because it is common for both trajects, the time now is one hour for 80 Km, which could be turn by half easily and because it seems that there is not a any problem to make such a connection. Besides Lugano and Como could profit of such a line, and those are well known cities. Specifically for Milan Lugano, is there any particular problem that prevents for making a HSL between this cities?


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## Coccodrillo

Except for 30 km of mountains, an up to 270 m deep lake (with the exception of one single point which would impose a tight S-curve), and a state (Italy) unwilling to do anything...no, there isn't any particular problem!

Note that Italy is so unwilling to speed up the line that there is a point south of Como where a track has three switches one after another of which two limited to 60 km/h (making the third 100 km/h switch useless), and where the other track has a 100 km/h switch limited for some reasons to 60 km/h, too, so that trains have to slow down just because of a badly planned junction. In addition to that, these speed limitations are only on the diverging line to Como where fast passenger trains run, while there are no speed restrictions on Como's bypass...which is used only by 100 km/h freight trains.


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## Rayancito

Coccodrillo said:


> Except for 30 km of mountains, an up to 270 m deep lake (with the exception of one single point which would impose a tight S-curve), and a state (Italy) unwilling to do anything...no, there isn't any particular problem!
> 
> Note that Italy is so unwilling to speed up the line that there is a point south of Como where a track has three switches one after another of which two limited to 60 km/h (making the third 100 km/h switch useless), and where the other track has a 100 km/h switch limited for some reasons to 60 km/h, too, so that trains have to slow down just because of a badly planned junction. In addition to that, these speed limitations are only on the diverging line to Como where fast passenger trains run, while there are no speed restrictions on Como's bypass...which is used only by 100 km/h freight trains.


 Now it is clear.......very strange italian attitude, until 2010 they really made major improvements in their network, now everything seems to go slow, only Milan Brescia is on the way that i know of. What about Munich side, i have read the federal railways web page and i see a project for a Lindau Geltendorf improvement towads 2016, is it on schedule?

http://www.bav.admin.ch/hgv/01872/01882/01931/index.html?lang=fr


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## Wilhem275

Italian major works have been just new HSL lines. The rest of the network is let to rot.
Speaking about Swiss railways, look at the missing will to complete the Arcisate - Stabio link... I suspect FS is slowing it down by purpouse to convince Switzerland to pay for it.



Coccodrillo said:


> The Simplon-Lötschberg railway increased traffic a lot in the last few years, with freight reaching 10 million tonnes annually (Gotthard: 16), but the main axis remains the Gotthard, and Italy should concentrate its effort on that (either via Luino or via Chiasso), keeping its part of the Simplon line in good conditions but without building new tracks there.


I actually made a mistake writing that, what I meant is that works will begin on the Simplon line but nothing on the Gotthard one, which as you said is the main one.
I'm talking about the 4-tracks section Rho-Gallarate, which aim is mainly capacity for freight and regional traffic, but which may bring speed advantages, too.


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## Coccodrillo

The Rho-Gallarate quadrupling might be of some use also for the Gotthard (via Luino), however NIMBYs managed to cancel this project for the next decade (curiously, they said that it would have been better to increase the suburban train service instead, when this project was exactly aimed at that...).


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ...realistically, as they are obsessed with timetables instead of capacity and speed....


If anything SBB obsessed with providing the best service possible. And it appears that they are doing a good job there, as witnessed by their success.

For the passengers point of view what mattes is how fast he/she gets from A to B, not how fast the train is. And what matters more is reliability than squeezing every possible minute out of the timetable. Commuters rather spend 50 minutes every day, than 40 minutes 4 days out of 5, and 2 hours on the fifth...

The biggest problem the SBB has at the moment is it's success. It has to find ways to put more trains on the tracks, and to provide more seats in it's trains, and it has to do this fast. The biggest problem SBB has is that basically to many people are taking it's trains...

Providing more capacity, in a reliable way does require investments. The money for those investments is limited, as unlike Italy Switzerland can't stick Germany with the bill. 
If you want to maximize the utility of those limited investments you do start with the timetable. That is what all countries who don't want to build themselves HSL lines in to bankruptcy actually do...


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## Coccodrillo

^^ useless post, Suburbanist has the Truth, you will never manage him to change his ideas!


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## Wilhem275

Coccodrillo said:


> The Rho-Gallarate quadrupling might be of some use also for the Gotthard (via Luino), however NIMBYs managed to cancel this project for the next decade (curiously, they said that it would have been better to increase the suburban train service instead, when this project was exactly aimed at that...).


It seems new Ministry of Transports, being of the same party of regional admins, is willing to bring it on... (and in the nice 4-tracks, not the silly 3-tracks version).


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## Coccodrillo

Yesterday the first track of the Pollegio bypass, part of the junction between the old and new line, has been opened. The other track will follow next Monday. Until then one track of the old line will be used by work trains to dismantle the line itself (that's why only one track has been opened at the moment).

Below a video taken today:






And now the other junction south of the tunnel:






That's how the line through the village of Pollegio looked like:






Some photos of the old line: http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/viewtopic.php?p=480593#p480593


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## Sunfuns

When are the tests in the west bore of the Bodio-Faido scheduled to start? Was it next spring?


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## Coccodrillo

By the end of this year.


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## Rayancito

Wilhem275 said:


> It seems new Ministry of Transports, being of the same party of regional admins, is willing to bring it on... (and in the nice 4-tracks, not the silly 3-tracks version).





> In a judgment of 9 July 2012, the Lombardy Regional Administrative Court accepted appeal No 1359 of 2011 and annulled Resolution No 33 of 13 May 2010 by the CIPE (Interministerial Economic Planning Committee) on the grounds that the technical committee that had assessed the environmental impact of the project had taken no account of the fact that the quadrupling of the railway line had actually been ruled out at the preliminary planning stage, as it had been deemed to have an excessive impact on local urban surroundings; the committee itself had apodictically affirmed that the impact in terms of vibration and noise would be neutralised by the mitigation measures included in the final project. The committee thus expressed opinions that would have called for further, more appropriate research and essentially anticipated the assessments that should have been made under the new environmental impact assessment procedure.


 This is not just nimbys....

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2012-007230&language=EN


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## KingNick

Are delays expected due to the bankruptcy of Alpine Bau?


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## Highcliff

Coccodrillo said:


> Do you mean lined?
> 
> If so, it's yes for the GBT, no for the CBT (except a few metres).
> 
> See here: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-of-the-work/raw-construction.html


hi, coccodrillo
what is exactly "lined"?
is that a layer of concrete that cover inside the tunnel?


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## Coccodrillo

The lining is the material posed on the walls and the ceiling that cover the rock.

It can be poured concrete like this: http://i42.tinypic.com/5u0h9c.jpg

Or sprayed concrete: http://www.hightech.fi/direct.aspx?area=htf&prm1=830&prm2=article

But the lining can also be made by bricks (usually in older tunnels, built up to around 1940), or be absent: where the rock is extremely strong and there are no needs to have an "aerodynamic" tunnel there is no lining at all, and you see the rock going through the tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo




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## Sunfuns

What exactly are we looking at in these last five photos? 

Excellent quality, by the way.


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## Coccodrillo

It is the old line near Pollegio being demolished, replaced by the new AlpTransit line including a junction.

See post #754 for the old line (third video) and the new one with the junction (first video).


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> It is the old line near Pollegio being demolished, replaced by the new AlpTransit line including a junction.


Thanks. What's the plan for the old right of way? I assume it will be turned over to the village for general development, right?


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## Coccodrillo

I heard that a road for local traffic, walkers and bicycles with some kind of park amenities (trees, benches, etc) will be built. However the village of Pollegio has only 700 inhabitants, so nothing spectacular will happen! If it wasn't for the need of AlpTransit, the railway would have remained where it had always been. Even if it wasn't necessary to divert the old railway to connect it with the new one, I suppose it had been done because not moving the old railway would have meant building noise walls along both the new and old lines, so that basically it would have costed more or less the same.

See the map: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Polle...2779,0.004823&t=k&hnear=Pollegio,+Ticino&z=17



KingNick said:


> Are delays expected due to the bankruptcy of Alpine Bau?


I doubt, because civil works are nearly completed in the Gotthard BT (boring already ended in 2011), while as far I know Alpine is not involved at all in the Ceneri BT.


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## Coccodrillo

Southern CBT portal, 19.07.2013.










Tracks, rolling stock and other machines of the construction sites are up for sale (seriously). Here is a driving trailer for passengers.










There is a complete railway here. The last narrow gauge work train ran not much time ago, likely between 10th and 15th July 2013. Here are flat wagons and tracks, considering that there were two narrow gauge tracks in each single track running tunnel, there might have been over 200 km of 900 mm gauge tracks, although not all in service at the same time. It is also likely that the Erstfeld (northern work site) and Bodio-Pollegio (southern) narrow gauge networks were never linked together. No narrow gauge trains have been used for the CBT, although half a dozen vehicles have been used for a nearby road tunnel built at the same time (a project urnelated to the CBT).










Bonus: noise barrier protecting some trees near the southern CBT portal. Because of a too much strict law, they ruined the landscape building high noise walls even where freight trains will become a thing of the past, like on the old Gotthard and Ceneri lines.


----------



## steple

Railway technology at the Gotthard Base Tunnel


----------



## ShearwaterSiding

Hi Coccodrillo
I'am really intrigued by the track machinery, just wondering if you have photos or video of the machine in operation
Regards
Shearwater Siding


----------



## StuZealand

^^

Hi, if you look back a number of pages in this thread, there are some great pics of the tunnel and some of the machines used to build it.


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## Coccodrillo

There are certainly videos of track machines on YouTube, but myself I have never seen them in operation. I just have some photos of them taken during the Sunday/evening pause, and they are all above.


----------



## ShearwaterSiding

Coccodrillo said:


> There are certainly videos of track machines on YouTube, but myself I have never seen them in operation. I just have some photos of them taken during the Sunday/evening pause, and they are all above.


Thanks Coccodrillo, yes I have found many machines on Youtube but none quite like your photos. I was curious if they cut and pick up an entire track section at a time or if they are dismantled first.

Love the photos, please keep them coming as I am bit far away to see them for myself, hopefully :soon: Caio


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## Coccodrillo

Looking at the photos, I suppose that the two blue things are cranes that run on the top of the wagons, picking up entire sections of track (rails and sleepers), but I'm not sure.

However, in the last photo you can see some completed sections of new track, so that's possible. I have also seen piles of completed tracks on another section of line near the CBT, temporarily removed and put one above the other to allow working on the trackbed.


----------



## ShearwaterSiding

Just had a look at the webcams after a couple of weeks away, and it looks like there is track being laid for the eastern track at the Bodio portal.


----------



## Suburbanist

Question: does SBB/CFF/FSS directly operates any gondolas and funiculars?


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## Coccodrillo

Besides most of the standard gauge network (but not the important Lötschberg railways), they operated the metre gauge Lucerne-Interlaken line* and the Piotta-Piora** funicular. This latter was built by the SBB together with the hydropower complex for construction and maintenance of the same, but since maybe 50 years is also opened to the public. However it is possible that this tourist service is managed by local authorities, I would have to check.

There is at elas another maintenance funiculars serving an SBB's power plant, this one, closed to the public. I don't know if there are others, or if there are ropeways, with the same function.

Then in Wallis/Valais I saw at least one bus in SBB "colours" (all white with the SBB CFF FFS logo), but I suppose it is run by the Post or another bus company on behalf of the SBB.

*now managed together with the Lucerne-Engelberg line the by a separate company, partially owned by SBB

**note the level crossing on the A2, used once every decade at most


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> ... and the Piotta-Piora** funicular. This latter was built by the SBB together with the hydropower complex for construction and maintenance of the same, but since maybe 50 years is also opened to the public. However it is possible that this tourist service is managed by local authorities, I would have to check.


Actually this funicular was sold to Ritom SA in 2003, so no longer owned/operated by SBB: www.ritom.ch


----------



## Coccodrillo

Probable service pattern through the Ceneri Base Tunnel.

I had to cut the PDF (itself a scan of a paper map) to show it. The red line, RE10, goes no-stop from Göschenen to Erstfeld.

Frequencies are:
15 minutes for S60
30 minutes for S4, S5, S9, S11, S20, RE80 north of Lugano and IC Zürich-Lugano
60 minutes for S10, S30, S40, S50, RE80 south of Lugano
120 minutes for S30 north of Luino

S10, S40 and S50 combine to offer a 30' headway.

The grey line is RE80 Locarno-Lugano-Malpensa.

The thin blue lines (from Airolo and from Cadenazzo) are buses, the thin black lines and the nearly invisible grey lines are othe railways.


----------



## Highcliff

Coccodrillo said:


> The cavern used for the production of concrete. It is parallel to the main tubes and will later be useless, except in case of emergency.


may I make an off topic comment?
in brazil, we also have holcim concrete....








http://epocanegocios.globo.com/Revi...TE+R+BILHAO+EM+EXPANSAO+DE+FABRICA+EM+MG.html


----------



## K_

Highcliff said:


> may I make an off topic comment?
> in brazil, we also have holcim concrete....


Holcim is a big multinational. No surprise here.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Probable service pattern through the Ceneri Base Tunnel.


I thought it had recently been decided to end the S10 in Chiasso? The extension to Camerlata is apparently not as popular as expected.


----------



## steple

Highcliff said:


> may I make an off topic comment?
> in brazil, we also have holcim concrete....


from wikipedia: 


> The Holcim Group holds majority and minority interests in more than 70 countries on all continents. From its origins in Switzerland, the Group has grown into a global company with market presence in over 70 countries on all continents. The Group employs some 90,000 people. Holcim initiated production of cement in 1912 in the village of Holderbank, (Lenzburg district, Canton of Aargau, ca. 40 km from Zürich) and used the name Holderbank AG until 2001 when they changed it to Holcim from Holderbank and ciment. It is currently (2010) the largest cement manufacturer in the world, just ahead of Lafarge.


----------



## Samply

Coccodrillo said:


> Probable service pattern through the Ceneri Base Tunnel.
> 
> I had to cut the PDF (itself a scan of a paper map) to show it. The red line, RE10, goes no-stop from Göschenen to Erstfeld.
> 
> Frequencies are:
> 
> 60 minutes for S10, S30, S40, S50, RE80 south of Lugano
> 
> S10, S40 and S50 combine to offer a 30' headway.


That is, if there will be an S40!!!


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ It is likely, when the line to Varese will open (which is sure, the problem is when, not if).


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## StuZealand

It's now been three years (15 October 2010) since the breakthrough in the GBT. :cheers:


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## pjhooker

Hi, any update of this project?

thx!


----------



## steple

You can check the status of the work on the alptransit website: http://www.alptransit.ch/en/home.html



> *Status of the work Gotthard and Ceneri Base Tunnel*
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> At the beginning of September 2013, the Erstfeld underpass was opened to traffic. The cantonal road passes through the new underpass.
> On September 30, 2013, in Faido, the handover took place of all underground built structures (including auxiliary built structures in the MFS, the access adit at Faido and the bypass tunnel at Bodio).
> At the end of September 2013, 57 % of the railway systems in the Gotthard Base Tunnel had been installed.
> Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of September 2013, 27.31 km, or 68.6 %, had been excavated.
> 
> 
> *Status of the work Railway infrastructure*
> 
> 
> *Overground section north*
> 
> Work on the cable duct between tracks 4 and 5 between approximately Km 97.200 and Km 97.700 is in progress and is expected to be completed by the end of the month.
> 
> *Erstfeld – Faido East and West*
> 
> Between Erstfeld and Amsteg, installation of the firewalls has begun. Also in progress in this section is the commissioning work for the cross-passages.
> In the power station at Amsteg, as well as in the power-supply feed-in point at Amsteg, commissioning work has been performed. In both tunnels, low-voltage cables and optical-fibre cables have been pulled in.
> At the end of September 2013, concreting of the ballastless track in Phase 6 was complete up to Km 134.065. At the start of October, Phase 7 of concrete-laying began.
> In both tubes between Erstfeld and Sedrun, 100-metre signs have been installed and handrails have been mounted.
> In the west tube, axle-counters, balises and signal boards have been installed.
> In the shaft-head cavern at Sedrun, installation of the crane system has begun.
> 
> *Faido – Bodio East and West *
> 
> On September 1, 2013, the east tube Faido-Bodio and the lateral cavern in the MFS Faido passed into the responsibility of the railway systems contractor.
> In the MFS Faido, the power supply for Tunnel Infrastructure Systems Lot E (Building Systems MFS) was installed.
> Following removal of the loading ramp of the tunnel construction contractor, the railway systems contractor has constructed a temporary ramp tailored to its own needs.
> In the east tube, consoles and cooling-water pipelines have been installed from the north. Temporary cables and electrical enclosures have also been installed.
> At the beginning of September 2013, the air-intake fans for the ventilation centre at Faido were delivered.
> 
> *Overground section south *
> 
> SBB has performed the final preparatory work for connection of the mobile substation at Pollegio. Delivery of the mobile substation took place via Biasca railway station on September 25, 2013.
> On tracks 5 and 6 to the north of the installations site at Biasca, mast foundations have been constructed.
> In the Pollegio Control Centre (CEP), partial tests and total integration tests for commissioning have been performed.
> 
> State: October 1 2013


----------



## Spam King




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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Question: when will they finish the 2nd track on the Lötschberg tunnel?


It is already in place since some decades 



Sunfuns said:


> There are no serious plans for a complete second tube (no pressing need really), but there is a plan to fit out the part of the second tube which has been dug but has no rails or infrastructure. I think that would leave only 1/3 as a single track.


The single track one is the Lötschberg *base* tunnel. If the next rail investment programme is approved next February, another ~15 km of single track tunnel might be opened around 2030-2035 (the section bored but without lining and without track), leaving a last ~7 km single track section. Full double tracking is not even planned.

Today around 13 km are double track, 22 km a continuous single track. I don't know what would be done with Frutigen's bypass (mainly the 2,6 km Engstlige tunnel), which has only one track but the trackbed (and tunnel) built for two. However this is a bypass, so there is still the original double track line which together with the bypass give a triple track section.


----------



## StuZealand

Anyone know when they'll excavate the south corridor link to Italy tunnel stubs? Perhaps after the Vezia breakthroughs occur?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> Surely everybody understood without it being spelled out that it's Lotschberg base tunnel we were referring to...


Sure, I just wanted to point out that the "base" is part of the official name  (just like the couples base-summit tunnels of the Hauenstein, Furka and Zimmerberg).



StuZealand said:


> Anyone know when they'll excavate the south corridor link to Italy tunnel stubs? Perhaps after the Vezia breakthroughs occur?


If you are asking when the two stubs of the underground junction (called "Saré junction") will be prolonged to Italy, the answer is...nobody knows. Certainly construction will not start before 2040, if not ever.

Note that there are plans for a "second" Ceneri base tunnel, that is, a single track freight only tunnel that would be roughly parallel to the CBT, but east of it and linked to Luino instead of Lugano. Also this is not for this half of the century.

Sure, things can always change, nobody knows the future...but that is what we can say today. Without collaboration from Italy these two projects cannot be built, and Italy is now interested only to the Brenner base tunnel (a good project, IMHO) and to the Fréjus base tunnel (or Lyon-Turin) which many people think will attract far less traffic than the Gotthard and Brenner base tunnels...


----------



## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> If you are asking when the two stubs of the underground junction (called "Saré junction") will be prolonged to Italy, the answer is...nobody knows. Certainly construction will not start before 2040, if not ever.
> 
> Note that there are plans for a "second" Ceneri base tunnel, that is, a single track freight only tunnel that would be roughly parallel to the CBT, but east of it and linked to Luino instead of Lugano. Also this is not for this half of the century.
> 
> Sure, things can always change, nobody knows the future...but that is what we can say today. Without collaboration from Italy these two projects cannot be built, and Italy is now interested only to the Brenner base tunnel (a good project, IMHO) and to the Fréjus base tunnel (or Lyon-Turin) which many people think will attract far less traffic than the Gotthard and Brenner base tunnels...


Ok, thanks. I would have thought that it was necessary to have a tunnel branch off stub made (like what was built at the northern end of the GBT) to allow for a possible future expansion, even if this future expansion is decades away.

If that's not done before the tunnel is lined with concrete, it'll be hell of a job later on and require the CBT to be closed.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sorry, I misunderstood your post, because the stubs are under construction.

***********************

By the way, a few maps of the future projects can be seen on the internet (PDF files on the right).

Zürich-Zug: http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/02957/04041/04042/index.html?lang=it (sections 1.2 and 1.3)
Arth Goldau-GBT: http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/02957/04041/04060/index.html?lang=it
GBT-Italian border: http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/02957/04041/04058/index.html?lang=it
Lötschberg north: http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/02957/04041/04056/index.html?lang=it (3.6 and 3.7)
Lötschberg south: http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/02957/04041/04063/index.html?lang=it

They are taken from the "sectoral plan", which is a collection of documents planning what might be built by the public sector even in the far future (up to half a century from now...) so that to coordinate planning procedures. Here the railway part, with text in DE/FR/IT according to the local language:

http://www.bav.admin.ch/themen/02957/04041/index.html?lang=de (PDF on the right)

There is certainly an analogue document with road projects, but I haven't found it yet.


----------



## K_

Baron Hirsch said:


> got a question for you people. the argument for the tunnel is apparently to draw transit traffic onto rail. almost all rail transit traffic heading south enters switzerland at basel, noticeably db and they are slowly speeding up the route between frankfurt and basel, making other border crossing points even less attractive. from basel to milano, you can today travel via brig to milan in about 4 hrs. if you go by gotthard, it will take 4 hrs 45 min. the new tunnel is supposed to knock off ca. 55 mins travel time off that route. the advantage of taking the new tunnel for somebody coming from basel or germany and heading to milan would thus be no more than 10 mins over the brig route. am i missing something here or does this make the gotthard base tunnel no more than a local subway between zurich and milan, rather than a transcontinental corridor? or will other tunnels and additional improvements knock off some more of the travel time? or is the argument as usual, we are building some ultra-expensive infrastructure for hs, but basically just use it for extra capacity? or to please construction contractors? i would be happy for answers from people more familiar with the project and switzerland in general.


The GBT has two main purposes:
- Make Zürich - Milano passenger services faster
- Increase cross alpine freight capacity.

It was never the main intention to create a faster route for passenger trains from Basel to Milano, although some Basel - Milano services might use the GBT route once it opens. 

You cannot draw conclusions about the consequences the GBT will have for freight on current and future passenger timetables. Freight runs to a different schedule, and from Basel to the Gotthard even uses a different route then passenger trains. The Gotthard is actually a more convenient North - South route for most freight and already carries more freight traffic than the Lötschberg - Simplon route, even though it is slower.


----------



## earthJoker

Baron Hirsch said:


> got a question for you people. the argument for the tunnel is apparently to draw transit traffic onto rail. almost all rail transit traffic heading south enters switzerland at basel, noticeably db and they are slowly speeding up the route between frankfurt and basel, making other border crossing points even less attractive. from basel to milano, you can today travel via brig to milan in about 4 hrs. if you go by gotthard, it will take 4 hrs 45 min. the new tunnel is supposed to knock off ca. 55 mins travel time off that route. the advantage of taking the new tunnel for somebody coming from basel or germany and heading to milan would thus be no more than 10 mins over the brig route. am i missing something here or does this make the gotthard base tunnel no more than a local subway between zurich and milan, rather than a transcontinental corridor?


Yes you are missing something here. Freight trains don't go over Zürich HB (the route you have used for your timetable). Freight trains use the double track line between Lenzburg and Rotkreuz. This bypasses the agglomeration of Zürich completely.

Secondly, the Gotthard base tunnel will have smaller slopes than the Lötschberg-Simplon line and will therefore allow much longer and heavier trains.


----------



## Suburbanist

The Lötschberg tunnel has severe capacity constraints as it is has 27km of single tracks.


----------



## K_

earthJoker said:


> Yes you are missing something here. Freight trains don't go over Zürich HB (the route you have used for your timetable). Freight trains use the double track line between Lenzburg and Rotkreuz. This bypasses the agglomeration of Zürich completely.


It's actually Basel - Brügg (bypass) - Othmarsingen - Rotkreuz that the freights go. They don't go through Lenzburg itself. Othmarsingen is a great place to spot trains btw..


----------



## Baron Hirsch

earthJoker said:


> Yes you are missing something here. Freight trains don't go over Zürich HB (the route you have used for your timetable). Freight trains use the double track line between Lenzburg and Rotkreuz. This bypasses the agglomeration of Zürich completely.


no, of course i did not calculate basel-zürich-gotthard. i calculated routes as they are used by passenger trains from basel. they join up with the gotthard line at arth-goldau.
otherwise thanks everyone for the info. to summarize: the speed benefit will really be limited to Zurich and environs, while the main benefit is the guarantee of capacities for future decades, especially for freight.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Apparently the service pattern will change with the GBT and CBT.

Instead of Basel-Luzern-Milano* and Zürich-Milano trains, there should be (something north of-)Basel-Zürich-Milano and Basel-Luzern-Lugano(-Milano a few times a day).

*as for now all limited to Basel-Luzern-Lugano, except a single Luzern-Lugano-Milano



Suburbanist said:


> The Lötschberg tunnel has severe capacity constraints as it is has 27km of single tracks.


22 km, not 27 km. Anyway, the limit is on the Lötschberg base tunnel, not on the Lötschberg (which has between 2 and 4 tracks).


----------



## earthJoker

K_ said:


> It's actually Basel - Brügg (bypass) - Othmarsingen - Rotkreuz that the freights go. They don't go through Lenzburg itself. Othmarsingen is a great place to spot trains btw..


It's Br*u*gg, and are you sure they will still use the Bözberg for long trains? It has 14.0 ‰, which is a little too much AFAIK.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes, they still plan to use the Bözberg towards the Gotthard. Even if its maximum incline is 14‰, it is still less than the 20‰ between the CBT and Chiasso (20‰ between the CBT and Lugano, 17‰ between Lugano and Chiasso, 20‰ on ~700 m northbound, longest 17‰ section Chiasso-Mendrisio, ~7 km in that direction).

All AlpTransit lines are designed with a maximum of 12.5‰ incline, even the LBT, although it is surrounded by higher ramps (up to 25‰ on the Simplon southern ramp). On the Luino branch the ramps are less than 12.5‰.

Note that also the Olten-Othmarsingen and the old Ceneri line will be adapted for higher trains (EBV3 or EBV4 loading gauge, P80/C400 intermodal transport profile) to provide alternate routes.


----------



## Sunfuns

Baron Hirsch said:


> no, of course i did not calculate basel-zürich-gotthard. i calculated routes as they are used by passenger trains from basel. they join up with the gotthard line at arth-goldau.
> otherwise thanks everyone for the info. to summarize: the speed benefit will really be limited *to Zurich and environs,* while the main benefit is the guarantee of capacities for future decades, especially for freight.


Also for canton Ticino. I don't think Simplon/LBT is a viable alternative for Basel-Lugano trains.


----------



## K_

earthJoker said:


> It's Brugg, and are you sure they will still use the Bözberg for long trains? It has 14.0 ‰, which is a little too much AFAIK.


SBB even plans a new Bözberg tunnel parallel to the old one.


----------



## steple

*Status of the work Gotthard and Ceneri Base Tunnel*

On the overground section north, from Altdorf railway station to the Stille Reuss bridge, the copper overhead conductor has been installed. From the Stille Reuss bridge to Riedstrasse the masts have been fitted with overhead-conductor supports.

Since December 12, 2013, all underground areas of the Sedrun section have been technically tested. The last areas to be accepted were the access adit, the inclined air-extraction shaft, shafts 1 and 2, and the entire shaft-head cavern at Sedrun.

At Faido, the underground work is complete. By the end of January 2014, the contractor had removed the surface installations.

Of the total of 39.78 km of the Ceneri Base Tunnel, at the end of January 2014, 29.40 km, or 73.9 %, had been excavated.

State: February 1, 2014


----------



## StuZealand

Good progress is being made on the CBT:

http://www.alptransit.ch/fileadmin/dateien/stand-arbeiten/ceneri-basistunnel/cbt-e.gif










I wonder if we'll see a breakthrough to the south this year?


----------



## Wilhem275

I hope so


----------



## Coccodrillo

It is possible (or early 2015).

Boring could be completed -I think- between 2015 and 2016.

Note that there was a plan to bore an additional ~1.3 km km from the north (rather than just 0.7 km), but this has been abandoned because of nimbysm.

The section from the access shaft to Vezia portal was also proposed as 2 km drill&blast+ 4 km TBM (shield type, not open type like for the GBT), but the contractor decided to use drill&blast only.

Very early in the planning phase using TBMs all the way from Vigana to Vezia was planned, but geological surveys proved that to be risky (TBMs could have been trapped in difficult rock).


----------



## StuZealand

Construction Site Visit

"NEXT CONSTRUCTION SITE VISIT Ceneri Base Tunnel, 20 September 2014"

Looks like only one site visit is planned for 2014. In the past they've usually had 'em every quarter.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ Apparently yes.

Meanhwhile, two days ago a test train reached 220 km/h on the still isolated section of electrified track.


----------



## steple

The South portal is looking almost finished now.. On the right side an Interregio train coming down from the Gotthard mountain line.










by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net


----------



## Coccodrillo

According to this photo you can't enter the western tube to/from Biasca - a big design fault, if this is confirmed.


----------



## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> According to this photo you can't enter the western tube to/from Biasca - a big design fault, if this is confirmed.


What is the problem?


----------



## steple

No, the work just isn't finished yet. There will be a double cross-over in both directions between the connection line and the tunnel portal.


----------



## Wilhem275

Actually I don't understand why this wasn't built as a flying junction: the morphology of the area is perfect for that.










Such a milestone tunnelling project, and just a poor grade junction at the end? _That's not America. That's not even Mexico!_ 

EDIT:


steple said:


> No, the work just isn't finished yet. There will be a double cross-over in both directions between the connection line and the tunnel portal.


Sorry, I did read this later. Do you mean they'll build what I drew? It makes sense to not build it immediately, since it would just create problems, with building works in the middle of an operating line.


----------



## StuZealand

^^

There won't be a grade separated junction.


----------



## Coccodrillo

StuZealand said:


> What is the problem?


steple said that there will be a crossover between the connecting track and the tunnel, but if there wasn't, it would have been impossible to access the northbound (left) track when coming from Biasca, and Biasca-GBT trains would have had to go against the traffic on the southbound (right) tunnel.

A solution like Wilhem275's one would be nice, but I doubt it will be realised.

It would not be much needed, anyway: northbound freights will use the third track (the lefternmost one, not in his drawing), southbound freights will use the connecting track to go through Biasca. This will allow passenger trains to overtake freights.

All trains going to/from the old line will go through Biasca. These will mostly be regional trains, but I wouldn't be surprised if the old line will still be used by light and smaller trains (the old line has a smaller loading gauge than the new one, the difference is around 40 cm on the top corners of the trains).


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## Wilhem275

I believe too, that the two lines will mostly work as indipendent systems and will share just few trains.
Still, given the importance of the line and being the last junction before that long, isolated stretch, I would look for maximum flexibility, to be able to make quick adjustments if something goes wrong.

In fact my concept would come at a cost of just one simple bridge (and not much more land usage), which seems acceptable to me, given the general cost of the whole project.


----------



## steple

In the long term planning (piano direttore in italian) there is still a project to build a bypass for Bellinzona, and link the GBT via the Galleria della Riviera to the Ceneri Base tunnel. With that, the old and new lines would be completely separated, so no flyover is needed.


----------



## Wilhem275

Which, in the long run, is not good in terms of reliability.
One aspect is to have mostly separated traffic, which is probably a more efficient usage of the whole capacity; but having physically separated lines is in no way a good thing, because service suffers great costraints every time there is a minor problem on one line.

A system made of two lines, crossing each other many times (as seen in the map), is taken to its full potential when there are many interchange points along the route, for example as the Neue Unterinntalbahn was designed (I don't like that line, but the interchange points are perfect).

Considering that these designs are easier to fit in the environment when the new line runs in tunnels (as seen in Biasca), I don't understand what's the point of sparing a handful of cheap flyovers while spending so much for the whole project. It's like cutting 5% of capacity and reliability just to spare 0,01% on budget :|

Yes, those flyovers are not needed in normal operations... but things aren't always "normal"


----------



## earthJoker

If there is a problem on any stretch, you don't need the flyover anymore, same level crossing is enough, because you won't be able to use that stretch anymore. Why would you need a flyover over a track that is not used at the moment because of a problem?


----------



## Wilhem275

I don't need the flyover over the tracks being interrupted, but over the part of line which is still operating. To put it into map: take my drawing, let's call those "North flyover" (over the GBT) and "South flyover" (over the Biasca bypass).

Situation: the GBT northbound track gets a sudden disruption, a train blocked inside due to a failure. You have to send trains to the old line or they'll begin to pile up along the line. At the same time, the southbound track is operating normally.
The Biasca NBS bypass is still operating, as well as the old line through Biasca.

With the current setup, you'll have all northbound trains from the NBS crossing the path of southbound trains coming from GBT, with a drop in capacity.
Now, referring to my drawing, in such a situation the "North flyover" is completely useless of course, but the "South flyover" would avoid any conflict, granting indipendence between the two directions.

Then again, in this situation some northbound freight trains would have to be stopped anyway (incompatible loading gauge), and Biasca station should receive them, which means you have to get them out of NEAT2 at the junction ("Osogna" in the map), and without a flyover they would also have to cross the path of southbound trains coming from NBS... it's a nasty mess.

With just a couple of bridges, northbound and southbound traffics would be completely indipendent, whatever happens on one track.

Also, that setup gives full flexibility for the future: at any time you may decide what trains stop or skip Biasca, without limiting the capacity of GBT


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## Coccodrillo

That's (likely) the eastern cavern for the future junction of the "Bergvariante Lang", an extension that would bring the GBT to 80 km.










The annual reports reporting progress on all (federal) rail projects have been published these days (all in German, some in French, a few in Italian) and can be found in the first link. The second link has plans ("Weg-Zeit-...") showing construction progress and planned future events. In the CBT, breaktrough to the north is planned in November 2014, to the south in January 2016. There are some geological risks left, however these estimiations are usually pessimistic. But no breakthrough can be expected this year.

https://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=de&msg-id=52561

http://www.bav.admin.ch/alptransit/01370/01373/index.html?lang=de


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## Sunfuns

They are planning a breakthrough to the North first? Just by observing monthly progress reports at alptransit.ch it seemed obvious that Southern breakthrough is much closer...


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## StuZealand

Sunfuns said:


> They are planning a breakthrough to the North first? Just by observing monthly progress reports at alptransit.ch it seemed obvious that Southern breakthrough is much closer...


That does seem strange. However, blasting to the North continues 24/7. Blasting to the South is only allowed during the daytime, because the tunnelling is quite close to the surface now and in a heavily populated area.

I think it would be great if AlpTransit overlaid the actual tunnel progress positions with Google satellite views of the actual locations to the North/South.


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## Coccodrillo

Initially it was planned to bore also from Camorino (northern portal) toward Sigirino, but this was rejected ebcause of nimbysm. It would have saved half a year...also because tracks will be laid from starting the north, so that finishing the southern section earlier would not be that useful.

AlpTransit AG publishes satellite photos showing were the tunnel headings are, but as PDF showing just the current position, so if you don't know the region, you can't easily recognise the place.

They can be downloaded here: http://www.alptransit.ch/it/stampa/...0.html?cHash=63898cc58dc3ae49ee04179377e49f14

Actual northern heading: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Sigir...4&oq=Sigirino&hnear=Sigirino,+Ticino&t=h&z=17

Actual southern heading: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Sigir...4&oq=Sigirino&hnear=Sigirino,+Ticino&t=h&z=18 (under the red tennis courts)


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## StuZealand

^^ That's awesome. Thanks for those links. I didn't know they were even there.


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## steple

Tests are going on in the south part of Gotthard base tunnel with speeds up to 220 km/h. The test train is formed with 2 Re 460 and pushed into the tunnel by a diesel locomotive, because the overhead wires are not finished yet. 

Photo by Georg Trüb/railpictures.net at the south portal near Biasca:










There is a video of one test ride here: http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/tessin/rasen-sie-mit-220-durch-den-gotthard-id2781636.html

The best thing is: You can look around 360 degrees during the video by simply clicking and dragging with your mouse! That's a really cool feature!! :cheers:


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## StuZealand

^^ Thanks steple. Great video. It takes a bit of getting used to, panning around like that.

This is such an amazing project. I look forward to hearing much more about the great Gotthard Base Tunnel in the next two years before its opening.


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## pimlico30

^^ Thanks Steple, it’s a remarkable video. If you download it in .mp4 format, you will have an amazing 360° view film! One word of warning – it’s quite large at 167MB.


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## StuZealand

I was trying to find the ventilation shaft by Sedrun on Google satellite view. The horizontal access from Sedrun is about 1000 m and then the vent shaft is another 450 m beyond.

There's a view of what it would look like in the video operational ventilation:
http://www.alptransit.ch/en/media/short-films/operational-ventilation.html
Right at the end of this video.

After scrolling around on Google, I still can't identify the vent exit. Does anyone know where exactly it is? Cheers. :cheers:


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## Coccodrillo

It is likely this one: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Sedru...4&oq=Sedrun&t=k&hnear=Tujetsch,+Grigioni&z=19

Just out of curiosity, here are other tunnels' ventilation shafts:

Gotthard road tunnel: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Hospe...81&oq=Hospental&t=k&hnear=Hospental,+Uri&z=19

San Bernardino road tunnel: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=San+B...ear=San+Bernardino+Mesocco,+Grigioni&t=k&z=19

There is one also for the Lötschberg base tunnel near Ferden, but I can't find it.


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> It is likely this one: https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Sedru...4&oq=Sedrun&t=k&hnear=Tujetsch,+Grigioni&z=19
> .


Thanks, it was quite easy to miss the Sedrun vent, as it's so small.




> There is one also for the Lötschberg base tunnel near Ferden, but I can't find it.


I tried to find it also, with no success.

~~~~

Based on that link you provided a few posts back of the weekly progress in the CBT, I worked out this (note, we use commas to separate groups of thousands in my country):

*East*
CBT East tube total length: 15,452 metres long.
Excavated from Vigana: 766 metres.
Excavated from Vezia: 339 metres.
Total East tube in Sigirino section: *14,347* metres.

North East heading (as at 11 April): 231.504 km
South East heading (as at 11 April): 241.271 km
Total East tube excavated from Sigirino: 9,767 metres.

Total to be excavated in East tube: *4,580* metres.


*West*
CBT West tube total length: 15,306 metres long.
Excavated from Vigana: 749 metres.
Excavated from Vezia: 303 metres.
Total West tube in Sigirino section: *14,254* metres.

North West heading (as at 11 April): 331.227 km
South West heading (as at 11 April): 341.103 km
Total West tube excavated from Sigirino: 9,876 metres.

Total to be excavated in West tube: *4,378* metres.

Total to be excavated East+West: *8,958* metres.

I think my calculations are correct. These ignore the cross passages.


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## Coccodrillo

StuZealand said:


> I tried to find it also, with no success.


I think I found it: http://goo.gl/maps/mfKp4

It is shown on the sectorial plan's map (which shows future public infrastructure projects, including the future AlpTransit tunnels, look here).


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## Sunfuns

Thanks for a detailed answer. I've taken that route just 3-4 times and was not aware of all those closed/rarely used stations. 

Actually there are a lot of closed stations all over Switzerland. A train travel must have been very different few decades ago. 

By the way do you know whether Basel-Milan service will also use Gotthard route or continue on the current Simplon alignment?


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## Suburbanist

^^ The Simplon route will still be faster


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## StuZealand

*The Gotthard Base Tunnel: successful test runs*

Within 78 days are successfully carried out more than 650 races: this is the positive balance of the test runs at the Gotthard Base Tunnel that have taken place since the beginning of December 2013 until mid-June 2014 in the west tunnel between the south portal in Bodio and Faido multifunction station. Along the 13-km tested, the trains have reached 220 km / h. The test runs have provided important information in preparation of the test through the entire gallery and regular commissioning of the Gotthard Base Tunnel in 2016.

"We are very pleased with the progress and results of the various measurements obtained. We had the first confirmation: the whole system of tunnel meets the requirements. There was no divergence anomalies or particularly relevant, "summarizes Bratschi Oliver, Director of Commissioning Alp Transit Gotthard AG, about 6 months of trial runs. The complex interactions of the different processes, systems and facilities such as tracks, catenary, power supply, security systems, driving technique in the gallery, as well as security and internal communication have proven operated.
Test the entire gallery from autumn 2015

The test runs were conducted under the direction of Alp Transit Gotthard AG. The staff of locomotive and rolling stock have been leased to Alp Transit Gotthard AG by SBB. In the coming months, along with ATG will evaluate the results of the FFS test runs. The information gathered will feed in the exercise test will start in autumn 2015. On this occasion both barrels of the 57 km Gotthard Base Tunnel will be completely crossed. Alp Transit Gotthard AG will deliver the longest tunnel in the world at SBB during the official opening of the Gotthard Base Tunnel June 2, 2016. Regular commissioning is expected in December 2016.


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> By the way do you know whether Basel-Milan service will also use Gotthard route or continue on the current Simplon alignment?


Both. There might even be three different routes for Basel-Milan.

These should be:
Basel-Bern-Simplon-Milan
Basel-Lucerne-Gotthard-Milan (like until 2010 or so)
Basel-Zürich-Gotthard-Milan (AFAIK a route never used regularly before, as some Zürich-Milano trains in the past came from/continued to Schaffhausen or Stuttgart, but never from Basel)

Today Basel-Milano trains all run via the Simplon (there is also a single Lucerne-Gotthard-Milan train, but it is not from Basel unlike in the past).


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## Samply

Really? That's quite surprising to me, so with the new faster line the trains will make more stops than the current ICN, or am I missing something? 
I thought the old line will continue to be used where IR trains will serve minor stations between Arth-Goldau and Bellinzona


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## Coccodrillo

The initial plan was to offer a train per hour, a Zürich/Basel-Milano EuroCity, and additional trains on peak hours (morning/evening/weekend); just like it has been until last Saturday.*

But a few years ago it was decided to offer an half-hourly service on every domestic InterCity line, so Zürich/Basel-Milano EuroCitys will be supplemented by Zürich/Basel-Lugano(-Chiasso) InterCitys, which will likely stop in Kanton Uri (initially in Flüelen, then after upgrading in Altdorf). EuroCitys will continue to be no-stop from Arth Goldau to Bellinzona.

The old line will continue to be used by InterRegio trains, but these will be split into two parts with transhipment in Erstfeld.

The northern part will be made of IR Basel (via Lucerne)/Zürich-Ertsfeld.

The southern part wil be operated as RE10 (RegioExpress line 10) services Erstfeld-Bellinzona-Chiasso(maybe -Como-Milano, for some trains), with stops shown in *bold* below (plus others beyond Bellinzona).

The two sections will have a guaranteed connection in Erstfeld, and some IR will continue to Göschenen on holydays.

*Flüelen
Altdorf
Erstfeld*
Amsteg-Silenen
Gurtnellen
Wassen
*Göschenen
Airolo
Ambrì-Piotta*
Rodi-Fiesso
*Faido
Lavorgo*
Giornico
Bodio
*Biasca*
Osogna-Cresciano
Claro
*Castione-Arbedo
Bellinzona*

*until June 14th there were ony hourly Basel/Zürich-Lugano ICN trains (some continuing to Milano as EC), since June 15th there are horuly Basel/Zürich-Lugano ICN supplemented by two-hourly Zürich-Milano EC, so that on the common section there is a train every 30/30/60 minutes (although it is not an exact interval timetable, is more like 25/35/60). It should become an exactly 30' interval since December 2019, with the opening of the Ceneri Base Tunnel and the end of upgrading works that will restrict capacity in the next years (with the opening of the GBT the number of train slots on the Gotthard line will actually be reduced, not increased, because of these works).


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> The old line will continue to be used by InterRegio trains, but these will be split into two parts with transhipment in Erstfeld.
> 
> The northern part will be made of IR Basel (via Lucerne)/Zürich-Ertsfeld.
> 
> The southern part wil be operated as RE10 (RegioExpress line 10) services Erstfeld-Bellinzona-Chiasso(maybe -Como-Milano, for some trains), with stops shown in *bold* below (plus others beyond Bellinzona).
> 
> The two sections will have a guaranteed connection in Erstfeld, and some IR will continue to Göschenen on holydays.
> 
> *Flüelen
> Altdorf
> Erstfeld*
> Amsteg-Silenen
> Gurtnellen
> Wassen
> *Göschenen
> Airolo
> Ambrì-Piotta*
> Rodi-Fiesso
> *Faido
> Lavorgo*
> Giornico
> Bodio
> *Biasca*
> Osogna-Cresciano
> Claro
> *Castione-Arbedo
> Bellinzona*


What was the thinking behind such a decision? If connection in Erstfeld is provided anyway why not have just one train? 

Also I wonder if it would not be possible to make Como the southern terminus of all trains not continuing to Milan. It would be an improvement in cross-border traffic without further demands on the busy Milan central station. Or perhaps I'm reading it all wrong? It's not a part of Switzerland I'm particularly familiar with.


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## Coccodrillo

The section north of Erstfeld is expected to have much more traffic thant the one south of it. Probably something like 10.000 (just south of Arth Goldau) versus 1.000 (Erstfeld-Göschenen outside holydays)...so the northern part will use loco hauled sets with at least 6 cocaches (or even 8/9), the southern section will use Flirt EMUs (comparable to 3 or 4 IR coaches). However there is no doubt that it would be better to join the two parts, using 2 or 3 Flirt sets coupled together until Erstfeld, and continuing with just one beyond Erstfeld (exactly what BLS is doing on Bern-Brig local trains, splitting them in Spiez).

Milano-Como needs additional (and cheaper) trains outside EuroCitys for local traffic, and it is possible that these will be joined with Como-Chiasso-Erstfeld trains. This is just a supposition, thought. Things may change in 6 years.


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## Samply

Thank you Coccodrillo for the extensive reply. As I travel regularly between Mendrisio and Bellinzona I've noticed the trains leave Bellinzona half empty going north. Just wondering whether there really is the need for more than one train per hour except perhaps before 8.00 to connect beyond the Gotthard.


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## Sunfuns

Samply said:


> Thank you Coccodrillo for the extensive reply. As I travel regularly between Mendrisio and Bellinzona *I've noticed the trains leave Bellinzona half empty going north.* Just wondering whether there really is the need for more than one train per hour except perhaps before 8.00 to connect beyond the Gotthard.


This is very common phenomena in Switzerland wherever trains cross the language border. Here in Basel area trains between German and French speaking stations are noticeably (up to 50%) emptier than without such a boundary. Plus in your case it takes a long time to get from Bellinzona to the next large town north, too long for commuting to work.


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## K_

Samply said:


> Thank you Coccodrillo for the extensive reply. As I travel regularly between Mendrisio and Bellinzona I've noticed the trains leave Bellinzona half empty going north. Just wondering whether there really is the need for more than one train per hour except perhaps before 8.00 to connect beyond the Gotthard.


There are several reasons for that. 
- Its cheaper the run the same length train the whole day than to continually change the size of your consist to match demand.
- SBB has contracts with the Canton and the Federation that stipulate how many trains it runs, at what times. 
- SBB operates on a "supply" model. They supply a certain level of service, in order to entice people to make public transport their main mode of transport. As a result they make a lot of money of passes (there are about 400000 Swiss with a Generalabonnement) but that only works if you also make it possible for people to travel early in the morning and late at night. It's one of the reasons also why SBB eventually wants to run all its IC services half hourly.
- SBB productivity is pretty high, so they only need about an average load of 30% on IC services to be profitable.


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## StuZealand

700 days left until the GBT opens. :cheers:


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## StuZealand

StuZealand said:


> I was trying to find the ventilation shaft by Sedrun on Google satellite view. The horizontal access from Sedrun is about 1000 m and then the vent shaft is another 450 m beyond.
> 
> There's a view of what it would look like in the video operational ventilation:
> http://www.alptransit.ch/en/media/short-films/operational-ventilation.html
> Right at the end of this video.
> 
> After scrolling around on Google, I still can't identify the vent exit. Does anyone know where exactly it is? Cheers. :cheers:


AT finally has a decent pic up of the Sedrun vent:


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## Coccodrillo

The Gotthard and Lötschberg base tunnels are just two of the many AlpTransit options that were studied in the 1960s-1970s. And for each option, there were different variants (for example, the GBT and LBT were initially planned to be 45 and 28 km long, but they have been lengthened to 57 and 35 km respectively).

Here a 17 MB file showing some of the options studied in 1971 (others have been studied later): http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/KOP 37057.pdf

It is in German, but with many maps, the most interesting being on pages 24 (general overview) and from 37 (the options in detail). At the time the old Lötschberg line was mainly single track, so one option was to double it. In the end, they choose to double "quickly" the old line (works were finished around 1991), and to postpone the construction of one or more new lines (which weren't called "AlpTransit" at that time). The doubling of the old line is the reason why the LBT is mainly single track. It would have been better to build directly a double track base tunnel leaving the old line single track, but at the time funds to double the line were available, to build a base tunnel were not. Don't forget that between this report and the opening of the LBT 36 years have gone, and between the report and the opening of the CBT nearly 50 years will have passed. It is like discussing now about a project to be opened in 2064...

Other links:

https://biblio.parlament.ch/e-docs/75176.pdf
http://www.rhb.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Unternehmen/InfoRetica/InfoRetica_2012_3.pdf
http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/AT1.htm
http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/AT2.htm
http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/AT3.htm


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## StuZealand

South Bound excavation of the CBT

This is getting very close to breakthrough. As at 25 July, there are only 859 metres left to bore in the eastern tube.


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## StuZealand

*Ceneri Base Tunnel: two-year delay possible*

Ongoing legal proceedings jeopardise the time schedule for construction of the Ceneri Base Tunnel. AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd (ATG) today comprehensively informed the NRLA Supervisory Delegation (NAD) about the possible further implementation scenarios. The most likely scenario is for opening to take place at the end of 2021 instead of the end of 2019 as originally planned. The associated additional costs can be absorbed by existing risk provisions within the overall NRLA credit.
In September 2013, appeals were lodged with the Swiss Federal Administrative Court against the awards made by AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd of the railway systems lots for the Ceneri Base Tunnel (Railway Track & Logistics and Railway Systems & Overall Coordination). In March 2014, the Federal Administrative Court partly upheld the appeals. The contested awards were annulled and the matter was referred back to ATG. Consequent on the judgements of the Federal Administrative Court, ATG decided to terminated its proceedings regarding award of the railway infrastructure systems for the Ceneri Base Tunnel and to issue a new invitation for tenders as soon as possible. In connection with the entire awards process, several appeals are currently pending with the Federal Administrative Court as well as the Federal Tribunal.
2019 only in the best case – 2021 most likely
At the regular meeting of the NRLA Supervisory Delegation (NAD), ATG today informed the ultimate parliamentary supervisory body about the possible further implementation scenarios for the Ceneri Base Tunnel and their effects on the costs and timing.
According to the current assessment of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd, the most likely scenario is for opening to take place in December 2021. This will apply if the legal proceedings result in new invitations to tender for both lots being issued before the end of 2014. In this case, the additional costs for longer availability of systems and installations as well organisational measures would amount to around 100 million Swiss francs.
According to ATG's analysis, the formerly planned date for opening of the Ceneri Base Tunnel to coincide with revision of the railway timetable in December 2019 can only be met if, by the end of September 2014, the Federal Tribunal issues legally binding rulings that the awards shall be granted to the original recipients. The additional costs would then amount to around 10 million Swiss francs.
Depending on the Tribunal's decision, opening at the end of 2020, or only at the start of 2023, is also possible. According to ATG's analysis, in the worst case, additional costs of 144 million Swiss francs would be incurred. 
As soon as the Tribunal's definitive ruling is published, the effects on the future traffic offerings must also be evaluated. In particular, the Ceneri Base Tunnel is the precondition for introduction of the half-hourly service interval between Lugano and Locarno to be possible. In addition, the Chiasso branch of the four-metre corridor for goods traffic can only become operational when trains can travel through the Ceneri Base Tunnel.


http://www.alptransit.ch/en/media/press-releases/ceneri-basistunnel-verzoegerung-um-zwei-jahre-moeglich-1015.html?cHash=ddb6f74b4e72ce442d84d6d4ff21c01a


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> as soon as the Tribunal's definitive ruling is published, the effects on the future traffic offerings must also be evaluated. *In particular, the Ceneri Base Tunnel is the precondition for introduction of the half-hourly service interval between Lugano and Locarno to be possible. In addition, the Chiasso branch of the four-metre corridor for goods traffic can only become operational when trains can travel through the Ceneri Base Tunnel*.



... and that is the biggest problem!


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## Luganese1980

... and here the good news: 

*Railway infrastructure systems for the Ceneri Base Tunnel: Swiss Supreme Court confirms awards by AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd* 

The Swiss Federal Supreme Court has upheld two appeals against decisions of the Swiss Federal Administrative Court of March 2014 in connection with the award of railway infrastructure systems for the Ceneri Base Tunnel. The judgements of the Federal Administrative Court have been annulled. The original decisions of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd for the awards are confirmed. The formerly planned date for opening the Ceneri Base Tunnel to commercial traffic along with the revised railway timetable in December 2019 therefore remains the goal of AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd. 

On August 12, 2013, AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd awarded the "Railway Track & Logistics" lot to the Mons Ceneris Consortium, under the lead management of Mancini&Marti AG, Bellinzona, for the price of around CHF 96 million, and the "Railway Systems & Overall Coordination“ lot to the CPC Consortium, under the lead management of Cablex AG, Berne, for the price of around CHF 129 million. In September 2013, appeals against these two awards were lodged with the Swiss Federal Administrative Court. In March 2014, the Federal Administrative Court partly upheld the appeals. The contested awards were annulled and the matter was referred back to ATG. 

The two original recipients of the awards, Mons Ceneris and CPC, appealed against these judgements at the Federal Supreme Court. The highest Swiss court has now upheld their appeals and thereby confirmed the decisions by AlpTransit Gotthard Ltd to grant the awards to the original recipients. 

17/9/2014 - alptransit.ch


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## StuZealand

I don't know the Swiss legal system, so is that the end of the matter? No further appeals are possible?


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## rower2000

StuZealand said:


> I don't know the Swiss legal system, so is that the end of the matter? No further appeals are possible?


Yes, a supreme court ruling should be definitive IIRC.


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## StuZealand

142 m in the east tube, 108 in the west tube. As of Friday 6 Feb.

I'll post how I've worked this out if anyone wants to know.


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## 00Zy99

Can someone post a map showing where all these proposed new tunnels are in relation to the ones under construction? The links aren't very helpful for me.


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## alphorn

00Zy99 said:


> Can someone post a map showing where all these proposed new tunnels are in relation to the ones under construction? The links aren't very helpful for me.


If you check this map









then the possible continuations are the following (not drawn):

North of the Gotthard Base Tunnel there could be a tunnel along the shore of Lake Lucerne up to Lake Zug (northeast of the letter n of Luzern). Not very urgent imho.

In the south, there are still some gradients which are a problem for heavy trains with a single loco. Two main solutions exist:

Solution 1 is a tunnel with to tracks south of Lugano to Chiasso, eliminating the remaining (not very steep) gradients, also saving some travel time to Milano.

Solution 2 is single track tunnel going southwest of the north portal of the Ceneri base tunnel going to the Lago Maggiore. Single track is enough because along the east shore of Lago Maggiore there already exists a flat single track line that connects to the north portal of the Ceneri Base tunnel. This line would probably be freight only.

But it's almost certain that those continuations will not happen in the next 15 years. Their extra capacity won't be needed until then and funds aren't unlimited...


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## Coccodrillo

StuZealand said:


> I'll post how I've worked this out if anyone wants to know.


Sure, thank you  (I'm more interested to the northern heading, the southern one being nearing completion now)



00Zy99 said:


> Can someone post a map showing where all these proposed new tunnels are in relation to the ones under construction? The links aren't very helpful for me.


I can't find how to link it directly, but try this: http://map.geo.admin.ch/

Then:
*EN or any other language (if it isn't selected automatically), then, on the left...
*geocatalog
*change topic
*sectoral plans
* SP Infrastruktur Schiene (SIS)
* SIS in Kraft

All railway projects not already under construction will be shown in the main map.

(I will edit this post if I manage to create a direct link)


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## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> Sure, thank you  (I'm more interested to the northern heading, the southern one being nearing completion now)


Ok, I'll do both, starting with the South:

Vezia portal (East):
km 242.946
Status of the work

Minus 339 metres inward drive from Vezia = 242.607

Minus 223 metres overground tunnel Vezia = 242.384
Project data Ceneri raw construction

Minus the weekly update (currently at km 242.242 as at 6 Feb 2015)
242.384 - 242.242 = *142* metres remaining
Southbound pdf


Vezia portal (West):
km 242.800

Minus 303 metres inward drive from Vezia = 242.497

Minus 188 metres overground tunnel Vezia = 242.309

Minus the weekly update (currently at km 342.201 as at 6 Feb 2015)

_(changed to 242.201 as the extra 100 km figure is only used inside the tunnel for some reason and not at the two western portal ends)_
242.309 - 242.201 = *108* metres remaining


Vigana portal (East):
km 227.494

Plus 766 metres inward drive from Vigana = 228.260

Minus the weekly update (currently at km 230.434 as at 6 Feb 2015)
Northbound pdf

230.434 - 228.260 = *2174* metres remaining


Vigana portal (West):
km 227.511

Plus 749 metres inward drive from Vigana = 228.260
_(Must have been deliberately excavated to this distance to match the East tube)_

Minus the weekly update (currently at km 330.021 as at 6 Feb 2015)

_(changed to 230.021 as the extra 100 km figure is only used inside the tunnel for some reason and not at the two western portal ends)_

230.021 - 228.260 = *1761* metres remaining

_Note that the north west heading is currently 413 metres futher advanced than the north east heading._


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## Coccodrillo

The GBT has been planned for decades. A lot of old documents, starting from 1963, can be found on these web pages (they have nearly identical URLs, but they are dfiferent):

http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/alptransit.htm

http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/alptransit.html

I don't know what's the maintainer of this website.

admin.ch is the government's official website, but http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/ doesn't have an homepage, I just found these isolated pages.

Most of documents are in German but none in English, however on http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/KOP 37057.pdf (17 MB) you can see some maps of the planned alternatives.

The so-called KEA report (Kommission ... Eisenbahntunnel durch die Alpen = commission for a transalpine tunnel, http://www.alexandria.admin.ch/AT3.htm) can be considered the first serious proposal of the GBT, presented exactly 45 years before its opening.

During that time transalpine traffic incredibly increased. I have found detailed statistics from 1984 on, but not before. However, these are already clear. Here the numbers for all passes between Ventimiglia and Tarivsio included (millions of net tonnes):
*1984*: rail 32.5 - road 35.7 - total 68.2
*2012*: rail 45.7 - road 95.9 - total 141.7
Traffic has doubled in 18 years, as I said I haven't found detailed statistics for years before 1984, however it is realistic to think that traffic was half of those of 1984.
(one might wonder if it is really necessary to transprot all these things...)

Many alternatives have been studied and, before the decision to built the Gotthard road tunnel (approved in 1969, opened in 1980), a shuttle system similar to the one later implemented through the Eurotunnel was also evaluated.


----------



## Nexis

How far along is the track and catenary installation in the tunnels?


----------



## StuZealand

Nexis said:


> How far along is the track and catenary installation in the tunnels?


Track is 100% installed.

Status of work, 1 Feb 2015


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## Nexis

Why is the Catenary not being powered at 25kv?


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## Suburbanist

Nexis said:


> Why is the Catenary not being powered at 25kv?


Because Switzerland is powered at 15kV, 16,7Hz (and so are Germany and Austria).










Orange: 750 V DC third rail
Light Red: 1500V DC
Yellow: 3000V DC
Light blue: 15000V, 16,5Hz AC
Green: 25000V, 50Hz AC
Grey: no electrified tracks

On top of that, Italy, Spain, France, Belgium, Netherlands, United Kingdom all have high-speed tracks electrified at 25kV, 50Hz AC.


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## StuZealand

Only 34 metres left to excavate in the West tube of the Ceneri Base Tunnel as at Friday 27 Feb.

South bound

This will break through in less than two weeks. :cheers:

(Still 81 m to go in the East.)


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> This will break through in less than two weeks. :cheers: (Still 81 m to go in the East.)


Breakthrough: *17.03.2015*, according to the monthly update published today (Alptransit).


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## StuZealand

Luganese1980 said:


> Breakthrough: *17.03.2015*, according to the monthly update published today (Alptransit).


Yeah, I see they've finally announced an official break through date. I assumed in my post above that it would be slightly earlier, based on the typical weekly progress.

When the first of the GBT break throughs was announced, the excavation was done to the last 1.8 metres before waiting a few weeks (I think it was) for the date of the break through ceremony.

While this one isn't as significant, I expect they'll still have some kind of ceremony for it.


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> While this one isn't as significant, I expect they'll still have some kind of ceremony for it.


I think and hope so !


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## Luganese1980

Luganese1980 said:


> I think and hope so !


According to the local media, the breakthrough will take place at about 11:15, and there will be the usual official speeches, media coverage etc. Like on 15 October 2010 (GBT), but on a much smaller scale.


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## StuZealand

Good to hear. At last count, there is but 10 metres left to excavate! :cheers: :banana:


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> Good to hear. At last count, there is but 10 metres left to excavate! :cheers: :banana:


The final countdown...


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## StuZealand

Wow! Only two metres to excavate in the west tube as of Friday 13th. The last blasts will occur this Tuesday.

The east tube has another 36 metres to go, so probably two weeks away from complete excavation.

Friday the 13th

Once broken through, I assume that having these two openings to the south will improve ventilation throughout the tunnel worksite.


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## StuZealand

*And we have breakthrough!*

Breakthrough in the west tube between Sigirino and Vezia

At 12pm local time. :colgate:


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## Wilhem275

:banana::banana::banana:


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## Coccodrillo

But south of Chiasso there aren't mountains, either. P/C 99 is a future proof design, like the double stack loading gauge of tunnels of the Betuwelijn.

The only problematic object south of Chiasso would be the 7.2 km long Monte Olimpino 2 tunnel (used mainly for freight, only some EuroCity trains use it). Here the best option might be a new single track tube, reducing the existing double track tube to single track and building a better lining (it now has water ingress problems, and -in addition-no emergency exit).

Anyway, that's a discussion for the next century...


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## Wilhem275

And south of Monte Olimpino you're stuck anyway...

http://intermodale24-rail.net/IMMAGINI/014-1/PlanimetriaCodificaTrafficoCombinato-2014.pdf

P/C 60 to Milano, 45 beyond it, and 22 to reach the ports (although the latter will be solved with the new line to Genova).

Ok, future proofing is right, but I don't see anything in Italy beyond P/C 80 in the next decades...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=555021&nseq=53
Georg Trüb, November 17, 2015, near Erstfeld 
_Push pull test train for the new 57 kilometer long Gotthard base tunnel (GBT), which will open next year. Re 460 # 084 with a first class Apm, two second class Bpm and a cab car Bt, for up to 200 km/h. The train is only about 200 meter from the north portal of the new tunnel._


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## StuZealand

I suppose that the first official train(s) through the tunnel on 1 June 2016 are already packed full with VIPs?


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> I suppose that the first official train(s) through the tunnel on 1 June 2016 are already packed full with VIPs?


_The official state occasion to mark the opening of the tunnel will take place on 1 June 2016. Guests at either end of the tunnel will be able to see two trains set off on their maiden journeys from the north and the south. Members of the public will have the chance to travel on the two trains, as a gesture of gratitude to the Swiss people. It is thanks to their votes at the ballot box that the construction and financing of the Gotthard base tunnel as part of the New Rail Link through the Alps (NRLA) was possible. A draw will be held in January 2016 to allocate seats on the trains._

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-57466.html


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## StuZealand

Thanks for that. It'd be great if a few people from this forum managed to get tickets.


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## zsbuum

Well... We are able to travel into the tunnel already... by bike 

Here is the 360° video:


----------



## Sunfuns

How do you film it to make it look like that? Haven't seen it before...


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## zsbuum

Sunfuns said:


> How do you film it to make it look like that? Haven't seen it before...


Oh I just noticed that it is distorted if you watch the embedded video! :nuts:

So this video is 360° like street view in Google Maps, just moving. You can look around with the cursor but please watch it on youtube website (click the youtube icon) and then it will work normally. 

This is a new technology I don't know much about it but I think this is similar to the mentioned Street View, just the algorythm put different camera view together. There are a lot of 360 videos on youtube already.


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## StuZealand

If you're Swiss, I see there is a competition to obtain tickets for the first trains through the GBT.

http://www.gottardo2016.ch/en


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## Coccodrillo

^^ I had already registered for the contest 

The tickets are for 1st June, the day of the ceremony for the authorities. They decided to also allow a small part of those who paid for the tunnel to run on inaugural trains. For the rest of the public, trains will run on 4 and 5 June. Tickets for these trains might be sold (likely for a simbolic price) in advance from next spring, as 50.000 to 100.000 people are expected, I suppose trains running through the base tunnel will have reserved seats only (which is extremely rare in Switzerland, only a few tourist trains and partially international trains have compulsory reservation here).

The competition for the 1st June's tickets is open to Swiss citizens but also to Swiss residents (even if not citizens).

Also on 2nd or 3rd June special passenger trains will run, but for the workers who built the tunnel.


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## StuZealand

^^ I knew that you'd be in for tickets. :lol:

It'd be fantastic to see you or someone else from SSC get tickets. Best of luck Coco.


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> *If you're Swiss*, I see there is a competition to obtain tickets for the first trains through the GBT. http://www.gottardo2016.ch/en


Foreign residents are also eligible (as well as Swiss living abroad).


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## Coccodrillo

To be precise:



Coccodrillo said:


> The competition for the 1st June's tickets is open to Swiss citizens but also to Swiss residents (even if not citizens).


So:

Swiss citizen living in Switzerland ==> YES
Swiss citizen living outside Switzerland ==> YES
non-Swiss citizen living in Switzerland ==> YES
non-Swiss citizen living outside Switzerland ==> NO

It is a way to thank taxpayers. However, trains on the 4/5 June will be open to everyone (but book tickets early).


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## StuZealand

Four minute long video with aerial shots of the GBT & CBT:

Four minute long video with aerial shots of the GBT & CBT

(anyone know how to prevent that message from displaying?)


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> It is a way to thank taxpayers. However, trains on the 4/5 June will be open to everyone (but book tickets early).


Which got me to thinking...

In 1991 the Belgian railways ran a 80 car passenger train. That record still stands. What would be cool if the SBB did the following for the first train:
- Have 8 trains of about 12 cars leave from different places all over the country.
- Somewhere north of the tunnel link those trains up in one huge train. Run that through the tunnel for the opening. Deck the trains out in the flags of all the Swiss cantons.

SBB gets to set a new record, and what a better way than to show the "reinforcing the unitiy of the country" aspect of the new tunnel...


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## Suburbanist

Do tunnel safety rules even allow a gigantic passenger train like that in the GBT?


----------



## Suburbanist

StuZealand said:


> (anyone know how to prevent that message from displaying?)



you can't, it depends on settings by the person who uploaded the video.


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> ^^ I knew that you'd be in for tickets. :lol: It'd be fantastic to see you or someone else from SSC get tickets. Best of luck Coco.


He will definitely need it... Already 115'000 (!!!) applications! (According to a SBB spokesperson quoted in today's newspaper).


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## StuZealand

Could some of the excavated rock from the CBT that's been placed next to the Sigirino adit not be used elsewhere, eg for road building or similar?

Or would the cost to transport it from A to B make such a proposal uneconomic?


----------



## 00Zy99

K_ said:


> That's old. There are four tracks in to the mountain for a few hundred meters (just the continuation of Göschenen station), but they quickly become just two tracks in a single bore.
> There is no project to enlarge this tunnel.


Was there ever such a plan in place?


----------



## StuZealand

Breakthrough is scheduled for 10am local time in the west tube of the Ceneri Base Tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo

The stub tunnel in Göschenen is around 300/400 m long, and was built in the 1950s/1960s because at that time some tracks were added to Göschenen station to create the space and loading ramps for the car/truck shuttle. However, as there wasn't enough space to merge these tracks before the old tunnel portal, they entered in a second tunnel that was built and then linked to the main tunnel.

However, as you can see in my post above (#1067), the stub tunnel doesn't merge in the main one, but ends abruptly in the mountain. This was likely a future-proof choice, as it is in these years that a Gotthard motorway started to be imagined. As at the time a 15+ km road tunnel seemed a difficult or impossible project, so one idea was to build a second rail tunnel, so as to have two double track rail tunnels, one for regular trains, and one for trains carrying road vehicles.

This second tunnel would not have been exactly parallel to the existing one. It would have crossed under or above the existing one, because the loading ramp in Göschenen is east of the main tracks, but the ramp in Airolo is on the west. Without switching the side in the mountains, the second tunnel would have arrived on the wrong (east) side of Airolo, with two equally problematic solutions: either new loading ramps on the wast of the station (where there isn't much space), or shuttle trains crossing on a flat junction mainiline trains tor each the ramps on the west side of the station.


----------



## Suburbanist

Speaking of which, when will the project to convert Goeschenen - Andermatt into a shuttle be completed?


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## Coccodrillo

What project? What shuttle? The Göschenen-Andermatt will remain as it is, with through trains going beyond Andermatt (like Göschenen-Andermatt-Brig-Visp). It might just receive new rolling stock, as the existing one is nearing the end of its life.

Then it might loose passengers if the direct Göschenen-Oberalp cable car will be built in the next years. However, it will be for skiers and tourists only, the upper station will be high in the mountains, not near Andermatt nor near any railway station.What project? What shuttle? The Göschenen-Andermatt


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## Suburbanist

Long time ago I read something about Göschenen-Andermatt link having a grade too steep, so they'd be stop running through trains and using a shuttle for that short section instead offering instant connections in Andermatt for trains going on both directions. This could prevent the need of extra-powerful rolling stock in the rest of MGB network


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## Wilhem275

Well, not that the rest of MGB lines is requiring much less power...


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## 00Zy99

Looking at Google Maps, I see what looks like car loading ramps at Goschenen, but not at Airolo. Were they taken away when the highway tunnel was put in?


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## Coccodrillo

They are still in place and have been used in 2001 when the road tunnel was closed for 2 months because of a fire.

They are here: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...p=18641231,,,&X=153553.25&Y=689787.50&zoom=12 (just south of the southernmost track).

Even the ticket barrier is still in place: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...p=18641231,,,&X=153511.50&Y=689599.80&zoom=13 (but this is unused since the opening of the road tunnel in 1980).



Suburbanist said:


> Long time ago I read something about Göschenen-Andermatt link having a grade too steep, so they'd be stop running through trains and using a shuttle for that short section instead offering instant connections in Andermatt for trains going on both directions. This could prevent the need of extra-powerful rolling stock in the rest of MGB network


Yes it was evaluated. I thought you were thinking about some sort of technically indipendent system, like an atomatic people mover or similar.

This line has a maximum gradient around 180 per mil, the others around 110, so it has some limitations. For instance, in train length, and their type. Only some classes of MGB stock can run on it, either some EMUs or conventional stock with special coupligns: all MGB conventional stock has a central buffer and side chains, while on Göschenen-Andermatt vehicles must have an automatic coupler between them. Some locomotives and driving trailers have an automatic coupling on one side and buffer+chains on the others, so they can have extra coaches attached beyond Andermatt.

I think they will continue as now, but with new stock, as otherwise there would be too many transhipment which would make the train totally unattractive (a Goms valley ==> Zürich passenger would have to change in Andermatt, Göschenen, Erstfeld, and maybe Arth Goldau...).


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## ollo

Now , I was thinking Why don't we open a thread about the new Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel between Lyon and Turin .


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## Suburbanist

ollo said:


> Now , I was thinking Why don't we open a thread about the new Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel between Lyon and Turin .


If you have some data/graphs/pics/drawing to post first, go ahead and open the thread


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## Suburbanist

Have temperatures of the tunnel walls stabilized already? I read it can take up to 3 years for the interior temperature of long tunnels to stabilize.


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## 00Zy99

ollo said:


> Now , I was thinking Why don't we open a thread about the new Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel between Lyon and Turin .


Link here when you create the thread, please.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...g-base-tunnel-track-doubling.html?channel=537
> 
> *Planning contract awarded for Lötschberg Base Tunnel track doubling*
> Monday, February 01, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SWITZERLAND's largest private railway BLS has awarded IG Valbt, a consortium of Swiss engineering companies led by SRP Ingenieur, a contract to plan to the extension of double-track in the Lötschberg Base Tunnel_
> 
> The 34.6km tunnel was opened in 2007 but in order to bring increasing costs under control only a single track was installed on the 21km stretch between the northern portal near Frutigen and the southern crossover between the running tunnels at Ferden
> 
> ...


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## Coccodrillo

A special tourist service ("Gottardino", literally "little St. Gotthard") has been unveiled for railfans. Everyday except Monday from 2 August to 27 November two trips will be offered throught the base tunnel, with a stop and a visit of Sedrun safety station. Tickets on sale from 1 April, reservation required and number of seats limited.

The price will be high: 119 CHF (the same in USD, 109 EUR, 176 NZD) for a single one-way trip in the tunnel and a return ticket on the old line with regular timetabled trains. Some reductions for halbtax card or general abo holders.

Times will be:
Flüelen 12.20 - Biasca 14.30
Biasca 16.30 - Flüelen 18.40
These times include the visit to Sedrun. They might well be the only trains calling there for a long time, or might not. Porta Alpina project has been abandoned, but it involved a regular stop, served by regular trains. I think special tour trains like the Gottardino might be offered even after the full opening.

Regular service will start on 11 December, not before. But there might be other public trains in the GBT before that date (but after 1 June), for example delayed InterCity might use the GBT to recover the delay. As until 31 May the responsible is ATG (AlpTransit Gotthard, the building company), until that date no commercial train (including freight) can use the GBT.

See more at http://www.sbb.ch/en/leisure-holida...gionen/gotthard/gottardino-special-train.html.


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## Samply

Is there any info regarding what the new timetable might be like with the GBT open for service?


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## 00Zy99

Coccodrillo said:


> A special tourist service ("Gottardino", literally "little St. Gotthard") has been unveiled for railfans. Everyday except Monday from 2 August to 27 November two trips will be offered throught the base tunnel, with a stop and a visit of Sedrun safety station. Tickets on sale from 1 April, reservation required and number of seats limited.
> 
> The price will be high: 119 CHF (the same in USD, 109 EUR, 176 NZD) for a single one-way trip in the tunnel and a return ticket on the old line with regular timetabled trains. Some reductions for halbtax card or general abo holders.
> 
> Times will be:
> Flüelen 12.20 - Biasca 14.30
> Biasca 16.30 - Flüelen 18.40
> These times include the visit to Sedrun. They might well be the only trains calling there for a long time, or might not. Porta Alpina project has been abandoned, but it involved a regular stop, served by regular trains. I think special tour trains like the Gottardino might be offered even after the full opening.
> 
> Regular service will start on 11 December, not before. But there might be other public trains in the GBT before that date (but after 1 June), for example delayed InterCity might use the GBT to recover the delay. As until 31 May the responsible is ATG (AlpTransit Gotthard, the building company), until that date no commercial train (including freight) can use the GBT.
> 
> See more at http://www.sbb.ch/en/leisure-holida...gionen/gotthard/gottardino-special-train.html.


Just realized the connection between Gottardino and the old TEE train Gottardo.


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## Coccodrillo

Gottardo is just the Italian version of the German name "Gotthard", the name of a medieval bishop which also gave the name to Szentgotthárd.



Samply said:


> Is there any info regarding what the new timetable might be like with the GBT open for service?


Yes it is, but will be made public only on 30th May on http://www.progetto-orario.ch/.

Just a little bit more patience and you will be able to discover it


----------



## Samply

Thank you!


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## StuZealand

As of today, it's only ten weeks until opening. After many decades of debate, planning and 16+ years of construction the end is so close.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> A "vintage" scheme of the line (current siuation) in Erstfeld


That's one of the many old projects. The oldest serious project for the GBT should be around 70 years old now.

This one provided for two new spiral tunnels (red in the drawing) near Giornico, to gain elevation before entering a shorter base tunnel.

The existing spiral tunnels (in black) are these:

https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=it&t...mp=18641231,,,&X=142417.50&Y=709267.50&zoom=8


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## Coccodrillo

You never end to learn. I though to know the existence of any railway around my home region, but that wansn't the case:

https://www.google.ch/maps/@45.9868...4!1sRFPIeyJiGoX_gQYWkc5PZg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

This tunnel was built for a Chiasso-Biasca railway, but not the one in use today. It is thus older than the line finally built, as the planned line was to terminate to Biasca, at a time they were still discussing which line to build, if the Gotthard or the Lukmanier/Lucomagno. In the end, the Gotthard project was chosen, and the other one abandoned.

The tunnel was built by another company, not the one that in 1874 opened the section of line which we know today. This company built very little before being dissolved, and this is part of that "very little". I don't know where is the other end of the tunnel, maybe it doesn't even exist. The line which has finally opened run in another tunnel ("Paradiso", around 700 m long) located below the abandoned one.

The abandoned tunnel has been used around 60 years ago to cultivate mushrooms.

More infos: http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1578735#p1578735 (see the links in the following posts)


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## ililo23

I read a lot about the Gotthard Base Tunnel but nothing is clear for me. The official inauguration would be the 1st of June and the opening celebration for Swiss citizens the next 4th and 5th of June, but the passenger trains would not cross the tunnel until August (and only if they run delayed) until the tunnel will be completely open for regular services from the 11th of December, is it true? But what happens with freight trains? Would they run through the tunnel from June, August o will they wait until December? :nuts: hno:

Thank you for answering in advance!


----------



## Coccodrillo

Two IC trains will be rescheduled to run via the base tunnel instead of the summit line in August, and an additional two will be diverted in October.

Delayed IC or EC trains might use the base tunnel at any time from the end of the ceremonies, so from 6th June or so.

They do not want to open the tunnel with full traffic, so from 6th June a few freight trains will use the new tunnel (but most will continue on the old line), from July the number of freight trains in the base tunnel will raise, but still keeping some on the old line, and so on.

Then, from August to November in the afternoon the eastern tube will be used by a "tourist" trains bringing visitors to explore Sedrun station, search for Gottardino above, so only one track will be available to be sued by other trains.


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## Suburbanist

why not start with a full schedule on the tunnels already, since it is summer and less issues to thinker about the weather...


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## Coccodrillo

To fully test the tunnel without having to worry too much for consequences if problems forcing its closure are found. And also to gain experience with a limited traffic.


----------



## Wilhem275

Any industrial process needs a ramp-up phase, because even the best project will show some issues when put into practice (think about safety systems interacting with trains, maintenance schedules, actual cases of trains blocked in the tunnel...), and it's much easier to face them before being under full load.

If the first months will give positive results I would expect more and more trains being rescheduled before the posted timeline


----------



## Suburbanist

It it not like opening a long rail tunnel is something completely new in CH.

Other than its length and the presence of an intermediate station, what other operational measures differ?

Is the tunnel ETCS-3 ready?


----------



## Attus

Suburbanist said:


> why not start with a full schedule on the tunnels already, since it is summer and less issues to thinker about the weather...


International train schedules may not be changed in May or June. They are changed once in a year, in the second weekend of December.


----------



## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=576787
Georg Trüb, May 15, 2016, Pollegio
_Test run for the inauguration of the new Gotthard Base Tunnel (GBT) on 1st of June 2016. In front of the operation center sud (Betriebszentrale Süd) of the SBB in Pollegio, an Intercity tilt train ICN is running north (to the left) on the "old" mountain line towards the Gotthard, while another ICN (in the foreground) is waiting on the siding of the doubletrack line, which is going to the south portal (direction left) of the new Gotthard Base Tunnel. With this train, the procedures for the opening ceremony were tested and practised this day. Between the dispatching center and the railway line, temporary installations were built for the inauguration ceremony, like stage, stands, tents etc._


----------



## rower2000

Suburbanist said:


> Is the tunnel ETCS-3 ready?


As it will be used with ETCS-2, GSM-R has to be in place. The only difference between -2 and -3 is the loss of track-bound infrastructure such as position reporting by balises, axle counters to determine the completeness of the train, etc. If ETCS-3 is ever developed (which some still doubt), any ETCS-2 track can be converted to level 3 by installing the necessary infrastructure on trains and the control center.


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## StuZealand

I'm surprised that they haven't taken down the overhead conveyor belt at Sigirino that was used to transport the spoil from the adit. The last break through was a few months ago, so there's no more spoil to come out.


----------



## 00Zy99

StuZealand said:


> I'm surprised that they haven't taken down the overhead conveyor belt at Sigirino that was used to transport the spoil from the adit. The last break through was a few months ago, so there's no more spoil to come out.


Either its a precaution against cave-ins, or they are secretly digging more bunkers attached to the tunnel (this is rather common in Switzerland).


----------



## StuZealand

00Zy99 said:


> Either its a precaution against cave-ins, or they are secretly digging more bunkers attached to the tunnel (this is rather common in Switzerland).


If I had the money, I'd hollow out myself a secret James Bond villain style hideout under some of them mountains.


----------



## Robi_damian

StuZealand said:


> If I had the money, I'd hollow out myself a secret James Bond villain style hideout under some of them mountains.


It needs to be close to the entrances though. In the middle you would get 50 C heat if the A/C failed.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Some conveyor belts are still used to bring in aggregates to produce concrete. There is an unloading station for them here: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...p=18641231,,,&X=103786.70&Y=715210.10&zoom=13

As for the belts going uphill to the feninitive depot on the mountain (https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...p=18641231,,,&X=104214.50&Y=715120.50&zoom=11), I don't know. If there is still space left on that depot, they might decide to keep the belts here in case other tunnels are built in the region. One such planend tunnels is a narrow gauge railway tunnel that would bring the line from Ponte Tresa directly into Lugano city centre (roughly from here: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...mp=18641231,,,&X=96608.50&Y=714514.00&zoom=11). In this case spoil could be brought to Sigirino by trucks, then unloaded, and distributed with the conveyor belts. But I really don't know.


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/576985/
Georg Trüb, May 15, 2016, Pollegio
_Oratorio Madonna di Re (or Chapel of Linmezzo) from the 19th century in Pollegio is passed by Interregio 2417 to Locarno on the current Gotthard line. In this section, for about 2.5 kilometers, the current Gotthard line was relocated from going through the village, to run now parallel with the new Gotthard Base Tunnel line (including a siding track)._


----------



## 00Zy99

Coccodrillo said:


> Some conveyor belts are still used to bring in aggregates to produce concrete. There is an unloading station for them here: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...p=18641231,,,&X=103786.70&Y=715210.10&zoom=13
> 
> As for the belts going uphill to the feninitive depot on the mountain (https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...p=18641231,,,&X=104214.50&Y=715120.50&zoom=11), I don't know. If there is still space left on that depot, they might decide to keep the belts here in case other tunnels are built in the region. One such planend tunnels is a narrow gauge railway tunnel that would bring the line from Ponte Tresa directly into Lugano city centre (roughly from here: https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=ech...mp=18641231,,,&X=96608.50&Y=714514.00&zoom=11). In this case spoil could be brought to Sigirino by trucks, then unloaded, and distributed with the conveyor belts. But I really don't know.


I was playing around with this map, and I found a layer that seemed to show various rail projects. I noticed that there were proposed tunnels that, when combined with the GBT, would stretch most of the way from Basel to Milan! What is that all about? Are these tunnels _all_ officially proposed? What kind of travel times would result from all of them running?


----------



## StuZealand

00Zy99 said:


> I was playing around with this map, and I found a layer that seemed to show various rail projects. I noticed that there were proposed tunnels that, when combined with the GBT, would stretch most of the way from Basel to Milan! What is that all about? Are these tunnels _all_ officially proposed? What kind of travel times would result from all of them running?


I think they're all possibilities, but some may not be built for 50 years if ever.


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## Coccodrillo

These are the maps of the sectorial plan: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=113673843#post113673843 (and following posts)

The purpose of the sectorial plan is to reserve space for planned infrastructures to reduce the number of expropriations (avoiding at least new buildings on land that should be used by a public infrastructure in future).

I have no idea of the possible travel times. Zürich-Milan should be around 3 hours from December 2020 with 5 or 6 intermediate stops, so with these extra tunnels and skipping inetrmediate stations one hour could be saved. However, most passenger traffic on the Gotthard line today is to/from intermediate stations and also between them, not between Zürich and Milan, and I don't see that changing. So most trains in the future would still stop in intermediate stations. But we will see in 2050...


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## Sunfuns

Official timetable for GBT is not out yet, right? I was wondering what would be the impact on travel times for trains from Basel to Ticino and whether Basel-Milan train would be rerouted from LBT line to GBT line.


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## Coccodrillo

Timetable drafts will be published next Monday on http://www.progetto-orario.ch/. I will comment the timetable once it becomes publicly available.

Existing Basel-Milano trains via the LBT will stay there, those via the GBT (maybe just one or two from December, more later) will be in addition, because they serve different intermediate stops.

Capacity on the Simplon line (LBT-Basel and Geneva) should be increased instead. On this line trains from Milan on Sundays evening are always very well loaded and not so rarely fully sold-out.

Overcrowding on Milan-Zürich is less acute, also because there are more alternatives in the form of RegioExpress Milano-Bellinzona + IC from there.


----------



## clickgr

Coccodrillo said:


> These are the maps of the sectorial plan: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=113673843#post113673843 (and following posts)
> 
> The purpose of the sectorial plan is to reserve space for planned infrastructures to reduce the number of expropriations (avoiding at least new buildings on land that should be used by a public infrastructure in future).
> 
> I have no idea of the possible travel times. Zürich-Milan should be around 3 hours from December 2020 with 5 or 6 intermediate stops, so with these extra tunnels and skipping inetrmediate stations one hour could be saved. However, most passenger traffic on the Gotthard line today is to/from intermediate stations and also between them, not between Zürich and Milan, and I don't see that changing. So most trains in the future would still stop in intermediate stations. But we will see in 2050...


If a Zürich-Milan journey can be made possible in 2 hours by train I do not see any reason not to have direct non stop schedules. The fact that today most traffic is generated by intermediate stops is due to the fact that the Zürich-Milan train route is not competitive to the airplane or the car as it takes too long. I am sure that if it can be made much shorter the traffic between these two cities will be increased drastically. We are talking about two of the biggest economical centers in Europe.


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## Sunfuns

Even 3 h which will be achieved in few years is very competitive with other modes of travel. Probably would need to drive at night to be anywhere close to that by car.

Both cities are large and important, but one needs to be careful about projections for cross-border traffic. It tends to be not that great. There is a frequent Zurich-Paris traffic (ca 4h), but as far as I've noticed most passengers are using those trains for intra France or intra Switzerland travel.


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## Wilhem275

Coccodrillo said:


> But we will see in 2050...


Us in 2050 checking out the works for the new Zurich - Milan Basis Tunnel:


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## Bart_LCY

Cool Gotthard 360° video from Tauchen Sie ein in den neuen Tunnel article at srf.ch.


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## StuZealand

I only speak English, but I'm starting to recognise a reasonable number of German words from watching videos like this over the years. Thanks.


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## Coccodrillo

A website with hundreds of old documents about AlpTransit (in general, inclunding the LBT and what was never built like the Splügen Base Tunnel) has been published: https://www.alptransit-portal.ch/

It is mainly in DE-FR-IT, but with interesting maps like these:


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## StuZealand

I see from the official count down http://www.gottardo2016.ch/en that the tunnel opens at 2am on Wednesday, local Swiss time. This seems a strange time to open; in the middle of the night.


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## 00Zy99

It allows switchover with minimal disruption.


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## Coccodrillo

The counter is linked to each one's computer, at Swiss time the 0 will be at midday June 1st.

The line responsibility will change from AlpTransit Gotthard AG to the SBB officially at midnight 31.5/1.6. But there is no precise point in time from which the line will be open, for instance no regular trains are expected before June 6. And from that time, only a few freight trains will be diverted, with more and more adding over the next months. Basically, the majority of traffic will continue to use the old line until September.

**********************

The draft timetable 2017 has been published today on http://www.progetto-orario.ch/.

Two tables are relevant for the GBT:
http://www.progetto-orario.ch/fileadmin/sta_pdf_fields/2017/600.pdf (Gotthard line, long distance)
http://www.progetto-orario.ch/fileadmin/sta_pdf_fields/2017/631.pdf (Gotthard line, regional trains in Ticino)

North-south there will be:
* 24 IC to Lugano and EC to Milano (15 and 9 respectively)
* 18 IR to Erstfeld, of which 14+1 connecting to RE from Erstfeld over the old line
* 2 additional IC trains to Lugano on weekends only aimed for tourists

On the old line:
* 14 daily RE trains
* 1 extra RE train on Friday, Saturday, Sunday
* 3 RE trains from Airolo down to Bellinzona (along the southern ramp, which is more populated than the northern ramp)
* 2 IR trains on tourist season, timetable not yet known, at least one of them with panoramic coaches

IC/EC = InterCity/EuroCity fast trains (EC are the international ones)
IR = InterRegio, RE = Regio Express semi-fast trains

Looking at the timetable one can have a hint of the maintenance pattern: on the nights Sa/Su, Su/Mo and Mo/Tu one tube will be closed for respectively 8, 8 and 6 hours. As the IC trains cross each other inside the tunnel, on Saturday and Sudnay evening the 21.09 from Zürich is delayed to 21.32, so that the 21.43 from Lugano can pass in the base tunnel which is single track at that time. Tehre are two crossovers inside the tunnel, but these will not be used in regular service nor for planned maintenance. They will be used only if one section of the tunnel will have to be closed for more than planned on these three nights a week.

Note that if the 21.09 IC train was to be diverted on the mountain line rather than delayed to 21.32, it would arrive in Bellinzona slightly later.

A final note: today there are 8 EC trains a day, so next year there will be one more. However, until 2008 there were 15, so quality is still not at par with the past. EC trains will obviously be faster, but overcrowded on peak days, with people standing or sitting on the floor (like yesterday, my experience), something one would not expect on long distance fast trains.


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## Coccodrillo

Bart_LCY said:


> Cool Gotthard 360° video from Tauchen Sie ein in den neuen Tunnel article at srf.ch.


The same in English and Italian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0kdT5oEN2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wobOx5mLNs

Tunnel crossing in 54 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XLPBKxn6Bo

Flying above the Gotthard 360°:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj0NQMhw818

Tunnel projects in 1970:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIV6DEN5Hqs

Gotthardbahn in 1982:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBEBV6d8SMY


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## davide84

Yesterday there were also disrupted services in the Milan area, people lost their coincidence to Switzerland and were allowed to board EC 20 with no seat assigned. The train was completely full with people standing everywhere, some sleeping on the floors.

Starting from Easter period I noticed that FFS/TI are now using double trainsets ETR610+ETR610; maybe this is the plan to increase capacity on the route, considering that FFS have ordered four more tilting trains from Alstom. However I think that different rolling stock should be used... I hope that the Giruno will have more seats and more space per seat (considering also luggage room).

I may have a limited experience on ECs, but I always travelled the whole route from Milan to Zurich and I can confirm that
1) the majority of traffic is Milan - CH but not necessarily Milan - ZH; many people get off in Lugano or Bellinzona;
2) within CH the train is intensively used for internal traffic (something that the 610 does not handle very well, see above...)


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/577979/
Georg Trüb, May 27, 2016, Erstfeld
_The newest product of Stadler Rail, the "VSHST" (Very Short High Speed Train) for lines with low passenger demand ;-) No, this is a joke: 2 cab moduls with simulator of the future "EC 250" (Stadler's label) or "Giruno" (buzzard) for the SBB. This cab moduls are part of the exhibition in Erstfeld and Biasca on the occasion of the opening event for the new Gotthard Base Tunnel next weekend. The 29 ordered "Giruno" trains for 250 km/h will run between Zürich and Milan from 2019._


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## 00Zy99

Coccodrillo said:


> The same in English and Italian:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0kdT5oEN2Q
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wobOx5mLNs
> 
> Tunnel crossing in 54 minutes:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XLPBKxn6Bo
> 
> Flying above the Gotthard 360°:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj0NQMhw818
> 
> Tunnel projects in 1970:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIV6DEN5Hqs
> 
> Gotthardbahn in 1982:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBEBV6d8SMY


I love how the 1970 projections are much shorter than what was ultimately built.


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## Coccodrillo

If you look at my post #1148 you can see the so called Tödi-Greina line (Ziegelbrücke-Trun-Biasca). It was less direct than the GBT, and didn't serve the (relatively) "big" towns of Chur, Chiavenna and Lecco like the Spügen. But it would have involved shorter tunnels, around 28 and 35 km, more than the GBT but separate and shallower (but still more than 1000 m depth), thus supposed to be easier to build. Also the LBT was planend shorter, 28 instead of 34.5 km, and the CBT, roughly 13 instead of 15.4 km.

Personally, I would have preferred the Locarno-Meiringen option ("Gotthard West"), a it would have brought greater reductions in travel times from Ticino to Bern and western Switzerland. However, it would have required more tunnels other than the base tunnel, and thus be more expensive.

The Splügen option was discarted, like the original one in the XIX century, because it did not serve internal traffic to Ticino canton. Internal traffic is the main reason why the LBT was built.

(by the way, it's curious how little was written about the LBT here, which still is the longest rail tunnel through a mountain in the world, and the second one from Wednesday until the opening of the Brenner base tunnel)


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## Wilhem275

Too much silence around here today... :|

Probably the whole country is partying too hard, cows included :cheers::cheers::cheers:


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## francobonfim

Wilhem275 said:


> Too much silence around here today... :|
> 
> Probably the whole country is partying too hard, cows included :cheers::cheers::cheers:


Sim, estou festejando essa obra magnifica de engenharia aqui no Brasil. Viva!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:banana:


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## PortoNuts




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## Nexis

*The new Gotthard Base Tunnel | Euromaxx*


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## francobonfim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_4XIude8Gs


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## Wilhem275

"Made in Germany"? :lol:

First Italy, now Germany want to claim the GBT as theirs...


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## steple

It's done! The Gotthard Base Tunnel is now officially opened! :banana::banana::banana::cheers1:

Some pictures of the online newspaper 20min.ch http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/-Jetzt-soette-mer-no-d-Wort-vo-de-Hymne-wuesse---13833396


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## mrsmartman

Congratulations!


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## Zaz965

finally :banana::banana::rock::rock:









http://viatrolebus.com.br/2016/06/europa-ganha-tunel-ferroviario-mais-longo-do-mundo/#comment-27643


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## StuZealand

francobonfim said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_4XIude8Gs


Did anyone else notice something weird with that video?

The train enters the GBT from the northern portal at Erstfeld via the left tube (as Swiss trains normally travel on the left hand side of a double track line). The video footage inside the tunnel shows all of the green emergency doors that are used to escape to the other other tube _on the left hand side_. If the train is in the left tube, they should all be on the right hand side.


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...urt-milan-services-next-year.html?channel=524
> 
> *SBB to launch Frankfurt - Milan services next year*
> Friday, June 03, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SWISS Federal Railways (SBB) has announced plans to launch a new Frankfurt - Milan service next year in cooperation with both Trenitalia and German Rail (DB)_
> 
> The services will be operated using the SBB-owned, Alstom-built ETR610/RABe 503 Pendolino EMU fleet.
> 
> The northbound services will be routed via Lötschberg Base Tunnel and Bern, returning south via Lucerne and the Gotthard Base tunnel
> 
> ...


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## steple

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/578550/
Georg Trüb, June 01, 2016, Pollegio
_On 1st June, the world's longest railway tunnel was officially inaugurated, the 57 kilometer long Gotthard Base Tunnel through the Alps from Erstfeld to Bodio. The very first train which ran from north to south was this Intercity tilt train ICN (2 trainsets in multiple), which brought about 700 people who got a free ticket through a lottery to Pollegio near Bodio. At 12.49 the train is leaving the east bore, accompanied by some fireworks._












http://www.railpictures.net/photo/578557/
_This is the first train for politicians and officials, "VIP 2" from Zürich, which is leaving the east bore at 14.06, bringing the guests from the north to Pollegio. In this train, among many others, traveled the leaders from Germany, Angela Merkel, from France, François Hollande, from Italy, Matteo Renzi, from Austria, Christian Kern and the Swiss Bundesräte Johann Schneider-Ammann, Alain Berset, Guy Parmelin and Didier Burkhalter. The locomotive is Re 460 # 098 with special paint scheme "Gottardo 2016", which pulled 13 first and second class cars including cab car and a radio measuring car (for a optimized transfer of all data). On the right you can see the temporary platform, which was built for this event (and for the large public event on the weekend 4th/5th June)._












http://www.railpictures.net/photo/578576/
_Guests who travelled through the tunnel in the "VIP 2" train are moving in Pollegio in front of the operating center sud of the SBB, from where the whole Gotthard line is supervised, dispatched and operated. In front of the building a cab maquette of the "Giruno" train from Stadler Rail. The SBB ordered 29 of this high speed trains mainly for the traffic through the GBT._


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## Sorvete na Testa

steple said:


> It's done! The Gotthard Base Tunnel is now officially opened! :banana::banana::banana::cheers1:
> 
> Some pictures of the online newspaper 20min.ch http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/-Jetzt-soette-mer-no-d-Wort-vo-de-Hymne-wuesse---13833396


Dr. Merkel was asking how to build a mega-project on time, on budget as well? Flugfhafen Berlin-Brandenburg...


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## Coccodrillo

The first "commercial" train passed throught the GBT yesterday at 9.20 am local time. It was pubblicized as being a commercial train, but in reality is still a work train. It transports gravel used to produce concrete for the lining of the Ceneri Base Tunnel. And obviously they assigned to it one of the commemorative locos.

Note that it has only one locomotive, not two as when it runs on the mountain route.

Source of the photo: http://www.cdt.ch/svizzera/cronaca/156695/il-primo-treno-merci-è-entrato-nella-galleria-di-base












StuZealand said:


> Did anyone else notice something weird with that video?
> 
> The train enters the GBT from the northern portal at Erstfeld via the left tube (as Swiss trains normally travel on the left hand side of a double track line). The video footage inside the tunnel shows all of the green emergency doors that are used to escape to the other other tube _on the left hand side_. If the train is in the left tube, they should all be on the right hand side.


Well done, I didn't notice that. Either it has been taken by another train some time earlier, either it has been taken from the rear cab of the same train and then played reversed.



Georg Trüb said:


> In this train, among many others, traveled the leaders from Germany, Angela Merkel, from France, François Hollande, from Italy, Matteo Renzi, from Austria, Christian Kern and the Swiss Bundesräte Johann Schneider-Ammann, Alain Berset, Guy Parmelin and Didier Burkhalter.


Didi they forget the prime minister of Liechtenstein? Every head of government of each country bordering Switzerland was invited, no matter how tiny it is!


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> Didi they forget the prime minister of Liechtenstein? Every head of government of each country bordering Switzerland was invited, no matter how tiny it is!


Erm, Hollande is NOT a head of government!

Did they invite Liechtenstein´s prime minister or prince?


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## eeee.

As far as I know only Marlies Amann-Marxer.


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## xalexey

The opening ceremony - a horror and shame. Slaveholder (in coaches), the servants of the devil, Lucifer, scary angel. This is our future? My opinion - it is today's times.


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## Sunfuns

Finally officially open, can't wait to use it next year! 

Cocodrillo: thanks for the time tables, but they are really difficult to read for a non-specialist. Can you tell me how many trains a day and what kind will go from Basel to Ticino via the new tunnel and via the old line from next year and how travel times via the new tunnel compares with the old route?


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## Coccodrillo

There will be 3 passenger trains every 2 hours in the base tunnel (of which 1 every 3 will be to Milan), and one per hour on the old line.

For instance, from Zürich to Lugano the pattern will be 11.09, 11.32, 12.09, not on 12.32, 13.09, 13.32, 14.09, not on 14.32, etc.

They will save around 33 minutes compared to today to Lugano and more to Milano (from 4h03 to 3h26, minus 37 minutes). The difference is due to the fact that there are time buffers placed along the route to absorb delays caused by the many ongoing works. Final saving in 2020 with the CBT will be around 45' to Lugano and 60' to Milano. Again, the difference is due to the different placement of buffer tiems compared to today.

However, from Basel to Lugano there will officially be only one train per hour, as the connection in Zürich for some trains will be too short (arrival from Basel at xx.26, departure to Lugano at xx.32). This is due to some other trains, that forbid trains from leaving at xx.39 instead of xx.32. This also means that also from Bern the connection will be missed by trains leaving at xx.32 from Zürich.

****************************

A press release gives some numbers about the festivities: http://www.ffs.ch/gruppo/media/comunicati-stampa.newsdetail.2016-6-0506_1.html

80.000 people have visited the four sites on place, and around 35.000 traveled through the GBT, likely returning on the old line. This number does not include regular passengers, which used the trains just to go to their destinations, and not visiting the GBT.

On average, 9.000 passengers cross the Gotthard tunnel on regular trains every day. Before the advent of cars and low cost airlines (~1970s/1980s), there were around twice as much.

I have been yesterday on the second northbound train, the fourth of the day considering all trains (the first southbound was at 8.44, the first northbound much later at 10.05). It didn't run at full speed, which was good as this allowed to see the two safety stations and the crossover caverns, which were lit (during normal operations ligths will not be on).

A total of 240 special passenger trains have run these two days, of which around 100 through the GBT, the others on the summit line.

Many modern and historic vehicles were on show, as Erstfeld is one of the depots housing SBB Historic vehicles. Together with Biasca depot there is a plan to build a sort of living railway museum, with regular trips with historic trains on the old line.

The buildings and yards used as a base for workers and equipments were partly reused to host visitors, but they will now be dismantled.


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> However, from Basel to Lugano there will officially be only one train per hour, as the connection in Zürich for some trains will be too short (arrival from Basel at xx.26, departure to Lugano at xx.32). This is due to some other trains, that forbid trains from leaving at xx.39 instead of xx.32.


Are we talking here about a direct connection like the current once in 2 hours ICN Basel-Lugano stopping in Olten, Luzern, Arth-Goldau and Bellinzona or is it via Zurich only? Basel-Locarno direct trains stay as IR and via the old line, right?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> Are we talking here about a direct connection like the current once in 2 hours ICN Basel-Lugano stopping in Olten, Luzern, Arth-Goldau and Bellinzona or is it via Zurich only?


This will remain as now. Every 2 hours a direct train, every 2 hours an IR with a connection in Arth Goldau to Lugano (or Milano) giving exactly the same travel time for Basel-Lugano.



Sunfuns said:


> Basel-Locarno direct trains stay as IR and via the old line, right?


No, Basel-Locarno IR trains will now end in Erstfeld. There they will have a timetabled connection with another train going to Bellinzona (sometimes to Lugano or Milano). Locarno will loose all its long distance trains (which toaday are the IR to Basel and Zürich).


----------



## StuZealand

Coccodrillo said:


> There will be 3 passenger trains every 2 hours in the base tunnel (of which 1 every 3 will be to Milan), and one per hour on the old line.
> 
> For instance, from Zürich to Lugano the pattern will be 11.09, 11.32, 12.09, not on 12.32, 13.09, 13.32, 14.09, not on 14.32, etc.
> 
> They will save around 33 minutes compared to today to Lugano and more to Milano (from 4h03 to 3h26, minus 37 minutes). The difference is due to the fact that there are time buffers placed along the route to *absorb delays caused by the many ongoing works*. Final saving in 2020 with the CBT will be around 45' to Lugano and 60' to Milano. Again, the difference is due to the different placement of buffer times compared to today.
> 
> However, from Basel to Lugano there will officially be only one train per hour, as the connection in Zürich for some trains will be too short (arrival from Basel at xx.26, departure to Lugano at xx.32). This is due to some other trains, that forbid trains from leaving at xx.39 instead of xx.32. This also means that also from Bern the connection will be missed by trains leaving at xx.32 from Zürich.


Are most of these works planned to be completed by the time the CBT opens in 2020?

****************************



> I have been yesterday on the second northbound train, the fourth of the day considering all trains (the first southbound was at 8.44, the first northbound much later at 10.05). It didn't run at full speed, which was good as this allowed to see the two safety stations and the crossover caverns, which were lit (during normal operations lights will not be on).


How was the trip after all these years of waiting for the tunnel to open?

How long did the journey take, given it wasn't at full speed?


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## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> This will remain as now. Every 2 hours a direct train, every 2 hours an IR with a connection in Arth Goldau to Lugano (or Milano) giving exactly the same travel time for Basel-Lugano.


Via GBT or as now via the old line? Actually what kind of traffic will remain on the old line as of next year? 




Coccodrillo said:


> No, Basel-Locarno IR trains will now end in Erstfeld. There they will have a timetabled connection with another train going to Bellinzona (sometimes to Lugano or Milano). Locarno will loose all its long distance trains (which today are the IR to Basel and Zürich).


Why not keep them as is via the old line?


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## steple

On the weekend 4th and 5th June there was a big public event, as Cocodrillo said with more than 80'000 people visiting. I have been there as well, and I can say it waws perfectly organized.

Shuttle trains through the GBT ran every 20 minutes from the morning to the evening, there were connecting post buses every few minutes from the tunnel portals in Rynächt (north portal) and Pollegio (south portal) to the railway stations in Erstfeld and Biasca with no waiting times at all, and finally there were really a lot of special passenger trains over the mountain line, sometimes up to 5 trains an hour!

I liked it very much and actually went there on both days, as there was so much to see.. :lol:

Here some pictures of the folk festival from http://blog.sbb.ch/gotthard-einweihungsfest-in-rynaecht/2016/06/05/


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## StuZealand

Impressive! Will the Ceneri Base Tunnel also be controlled from here?


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## bluemeansgo

Luganese1980 said:


> Bad news
> 
> *The first passenger trains are set to pass through the Gotthard Base Tunnel on December 11 – but how fast will they be travelling? Greater wind resistance than expected is slowing them down and threatening to play havoc with the timetable.*
> 
> Instead of the planned 200km/h (125mph), a physical phenomenon apparently overlooked by engineers means the trains running through the longest rail tunnel in the world will have a top speed of only 160-180km/h, according to a report in the NZZ am Sonntag.
> The problem is air columns. Out in the open these air flows created by every moving body can easily escape sideways or upwards. In a tunnel there isn’t much room – especially in the 57km (35.5-mile) Gotthard, which for economic reasons was built almost 10% narrower than the Lötschberg Tunnel for example.
> 
> The air columns must therefore be moved along both one-way tunnels by the trains – which requires a lot of energy. “In this case the trains act like pistons in a bike pump,” an engineer told the NZZ am Sonntag.
> The problem is exacerbated by slow goods trains which also use the tunnel but have a top speed of only 100km/h. These take 41 minutes to get through the tunnel compared with around 19 minutes for passenger trains.
> 
> In theory, the Gotthard timetable is a thing of logistical beauty. Most of the time five trains are travelling in each direction: two goods trains travelling quite close together, one passenger train and two more goods trains. The fast passenger train enters the tunnel just ahead of two goods trains, catches up with the two goods trains ahead of it and leaves the tunnel just behind them. This system, which has a 30-minute rhythm, fits perfectly into Switzerland’s scheduled timetable.
> 
> In practice, however, the four goods trains slow down the moving air packet by 100km/h – the difference between the trains’ speeds.
> Based on non-representative test runs, engineers reckon 10%-20% will be knocked off the passenger trains’ top speed. More test runs, which will be technically representative, are set to begin on Monday.
> If the slower times are confirmed, the timetable will have to be rewritten with fewer than 100 days until the first passengers climb aboard.
> 
> Swissinfo.ch


Japan's tunnels are quite narrow in diameter compared to your average European tunnel. They solved the problem of tunnel boom by having longer noses. As a by-product, you end up with gorgeous trains without stubby noses. Perhaps they can solve this problem with more sleek aerodynamic trains?


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## Manolo_B2

^^ all these problems could be denied by the Federal Department of the Environment, Transport, Energy and Communications (UVEK)


steple said:


> https://www.uvek.admin.ch/uvek/de/home/uvek/medien/interviews-und-stellungnahmen/stellungnahme-des-bav-zu-einem-artikel-der-nzz-am-sonntag.html
> 
> 
> In english:
> 
> - Test runs showed that passenger trains can run at 200 km/h according to the timetable.
> 
> - Freight trains will run at 100 km/h. There is no restriction to 900 tons as claimed in the original article.
> 
> - Air flow conditions behave according to the engineered calculations. The tunnel cross-section was not reduced compared to initial plans, but was extended in the Lötschberg base tunnel LBT to allow car transporting shuttles.
> 
> - Testing results showed that any concerns were unfounded. The planned timetable in the GBT can be run reliably.


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## Shenkey

I doubt they would not think about putting in powerful ventilation system, which they need require in case of fire anyway.

System like that should be able to produce slight under-pressure and "wind" inside the tunnel.


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## Coccodrillo

StuZealand said:


> Impressive! Will the Ceneri Base Tunnel also be controlled from here?


It will control all the line from Arth Goldau to Chiasso (both mountain and base rotues) and its branches (Locarno/Luino/Lugano-Vedeggio/the two border lines near Stabio).

There are 4 such centres managed by SBB, and one by BLS. These control nearly all the standard gauge network in Switzerland (some private lines and -IIRC- major SBB stations like Chiasso will continue to be operated separately, and maybe other border stations?). Some lines are still controlled locally, but will be connected to one of the centres soon. For instance, the Luino branch is not yet controlled by Pollegio, but has station masters in each of its stations.

Each SBB control center has extra rooms as a reserve, both in case of maintenance of a control room of the same building, and to replace other control centers. For example, if Lausanne control center caught a fire and is completely destroyed, all its employees can be moved to the other centres (Pollegio, Zürich Airport and Olten) waiting the restore of the unusable control center.


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## Sunfuns

Is the entire Rhaetische Bahn network also centrally controlled from one location?


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## StuZealand

Yes, it's vital to have redundant control centres for something so important as controlling (most of) the rail network. If one was destroyed or out of commission and there was no back up centre can you imagine the chaos it would lead to?


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## Luganese1980

*Why the longest train tunnel in the world is a double-edged sword*

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...ard-base-tunnel-business-travel-a7221661.html


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## rower2000

Luganese1980 said:


> *Why the longest train tunnel in the world is a double-edged sword*
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...ard-base-tunnel-business-travel-a7221661.html


Mr Calder seems to forget that after the tunnel opening, there will still be IR trains on the old line. So no need to take the plane because you want to see the scenery. hno:


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## MarcVD

But it will cost you more, as you will lose the price advantages of yield-managed through tickets. I think that's what the author of the article meant. Also, two more train changes, going through stairs with your luggage, more possibilities to get delayed, etc
. 

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Coccodrillo

There aren't many "yield management" discount tickets for domestic trips in Switzerland, anyway (there are some other discounts however, if you live there and knows them). However, there are such discount tickets for international trips on EuroCity trains. But not on international RegioExpress trains, of which some link directly Milano and Erstfeld:

Erstfeld 14.30 - Milano Centrale 17.50
Erstfeld 15.30 - Milano Centrale 18.50
Erstfeld 16.30 - Milano Centrale 19.50

Milano Centrale 08.10 - Erstfeld 11.25
Milano Centrale 16.10 - Erstfeld 19.25
Milano Centrale 17.10 - Erstfeld 20.25

Next year there will be just these three pairs, but in the following years some more will follow (ideally every hour). In Erstfeld there are connections with InterRegios, so one can go from Milan to Zürich or Luzern-Basel via the old line changing just one time, and with cross platform interchange.

During tourist summer season there will also be a Zürich-Bellinzona, from where one can take an EC or RE to/from Milano.

The inconvenience of changing trains and the possible delays will remain, however.


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## StuZealand

There has been very little fresh info coming from AlpTransit in the last few months.


Their last press release was back in June regarding a new person appointed to the board of directors.
The Ceneri Base Tunnel page still says "The final breakthrough to the north is planned for the beginning of 2016."
They've removed the graphic displaying progress on the CBT.
Some of the webcams are now pointless as they show views that aren't going to have any more construction or changes.


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## Zaz965




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## Swede

2004 was 12 years ago. Is there an updated map?


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## StuZealand

The GBT finally opens today to regular trains. Does anyone know at what time these trains will start going through?


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## Coccodrillo

The first commercial passenger train was the 11.09 Zürich-Lugano InterCity on 6th September 2016.

Today, the first train of this timetable period was IC 856 Chiasso 5.15-Zürich 7.51, which was followed by EC 11 Zürich 6.09-Milano 9.35. The day started directly with the normal schedule, they didn't wait a special ceremony to mark the event although a much smaller event was organized in Lugano (mainly to mark the end of works there).

I took IC 856 northwards until Flüelen, then alighted there to take, 18 minutes later, EC 11 to go back south. On IC 856 SBB gave for free bottles of water, fruit juices and croissants to all passengers (the train was nearly empty, with some railfan and a few regular passengers). EC 11 on the other hand was quite full, with two coupled ETR 610 sets, one with authorities (including SBB management), one for regular passengers (again, mostly railfans and tourists who wanted to take the "first" train).

IC and EC trains do not stop in Flüelen, except three per direction.

A special train also did run, it was composed of a Re 460, two first class coaches, some freight wagons clearly chosen by sponsors, and a Re 420 at the back. This departed from Basel and ended in Lugano bringing simbolic presents (don't know exactly what), and loaded something back to Basel. Official speeches followed, including the smaller ceremony of the reopening of the funicular linking Lugano station with the city centre which was closed to allow full reconstruction of the station and mechanical equipment of the funicular. By the way, this is the most trafficked cable transport in Switzerland on an annual basis (sure, some ski lifts have higher loads on peak days, but much less most of the year). As EC 11 was a regular train, it then continued normally to Milano.

On the afternoon, a northbound freight train broke down inside the base tunnel, which caused delays to other trains. A northbound passenger train was diverted on the old line, others arrived with delays of up to 45 minutes or so.

Today push-pull sets formed of Re 460+Bt EC* started timetabled operation on some trains, a kind of vehicle which never operated regularly on the Gotthard before. The train diverted on the old line because of the broken down freight was one of this kind, so if there were trainspotters standing on the old line, they might have taken quite a rare photo. These push pull sets until now were used only on extra trains on peak days like Easter holidays, and mostly only from Zürich to Göschenen, not south of it.

*see here for some photos...



Code:


http://www.bahnREMOVETHISbilder.de/name/galerie/kategorie/Schweiz~Wagen~IC+Steuerwagen/digitalfotografie/192.html


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## Zaz965

gorgeous trainset :cheers:








https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Pendolino


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## StuZealand

Thanks for that info. It appears that AlpTransit have removed the last two webcams that covered the GBT at Erstfeld.

I suppose now the tunnel is open for business they aren't really needed.

The four remaining webcams cover the Ceneri Base Tunnel, and only two of those views show progress in its construction.


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## Zaz965

another pic








http://viatrolebus.com.br/2016/12/ja-e-possivel-andar-de-trem-pelo-maior-tunel-ferroviario-do-mundo/


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## rower2000

Coccodrillo said:


> Official speeches followed, including the smaller ceremony of the reopening of the funicular linking Lugano station with the city centre which was closed to allow full reconstruction of the station and mechanical equipment of the funicular. By the way, this is the most trafficked cable transport in Switzerland on an annual basis (sure, some ski lifts have higher loads on peak days, but much less most of the year).


Are you sure about that? I always thought that title belonged to the Polybahn in Zurich.


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## Suissetralia

^^ according to wikipedia's figures they carry around 2.4 million passengers/year, whilst the Polybahn's record was 2 million.

I thought the Fun'ambule in Neuchâtel linking the train station with the lake was also up there, by it only carries slightly more than 0.7 million passengers.


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## RSEI&ETM

*Stadler High Speed Train*

The EC250 high-speed electric multiple unit (EMU) developed by Stadler Rail Group, a company based in Switzerland, is the world's first single-decker, low-floor high-speed EMU.
In October 2014, Stadler received a contract from Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) for the delivery of 29 high-speed EC250 EMUs. The contract also includes an option for additional 92 units.
The first EC250 high-speed train was launched at InnoTrans in Berlin, Germany, in September 2016. The new trains are approved for operation in Switzerland, Germany, Austria and Italy.


The high-speed train, named 'Giruno' by SBB, will operate on the line connecting Basel/Zürich with Milan through the Gotthard Base Tunnel. The first train-set will be handed over to SBB in May 2017, while commercial operations are scheduled to begin by the end of 2019.


Source: Railway-Technology


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## Coccodrillo

Some photos in the wrong thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=138176708&postcount=2573

Some freight trains runs on the old line during the nights from Saturday to Tuesday (especially Monday/Tuesday), as one tube of the base tunnel is closed for maintenance.

During a problem in the east tube on 6th January, the whole east tube had to be closed. The west tube was used only by as much freight trains as possible, while other freight trains and passenger trains have been diverted on the old line. This because heavier freights trains cannot use the old line without a bank engine, and extra locomotives cannot be found quickly in similar situations (keeping bank engines with their crews ready to go would be economically unviable as they would stay most of the time idle). Bank engines are still needed from Bellinzona to Chiasso, though, and will be partly needed even after the CBT's opening.

Disruption in case of problems in the GBT will be greater in the future, when there will be intermodal trains with the bigger P/C 80/400 loading gauge or double deck passenger trains, as these will not be able to run on the old line, even if bank engines were available.

http://www.sbb.ch/en/group/media/press.newsdetail.2017-2-0602_1.html



> _Press release, 6 February 2017_
> 
> *Taking stock after 57 days in service: Steady traffic through the Gotthard Base Tunnel.*
> 
> Scheduled services have been running through the 57-kilometre-long Gotthard Base Tunnel for 57 days now. No fewer than 2816 passengers and 3980 freight trains have passed through the world’s longest railway tunnel during this time. InterCity and EuroCity services have seen demand increase by some 30 percent compared with the same period last year. Operations have been largely free of disruptions. Punctuality on the Gotthard corridor has improved since early December, with the planned reductions in journey times achieved for both freight and passenger services. Nevertheless, there is still work to do in this regard. This will focus on the delays affecting trains coming from Italy and the availability of rolling stock.
> 
> The Gotthard Base Tunnel (GBT) has been placed successfully in service. Following intensive testing, the systems and technical installations have now proved themselves robust during normal operation as well. Stability in the national timetable has essentially been maintained. Journey times on the north-south Gotthard corridor are thus 30 minutes shorter than they used to be. Customer punctuality on passenger services on the Gotthard line has improved from 79.6 to 86.8 percent since early December. Connection punctuality in Arth-Goldau has risen from 94.4 to 97.1 percent. Operations are also running steadily on the Gotthard panorama route, with punctuality nearly at 100 percent. As expected, passenger volumes on the panorama route have fallen sharply since the GBT was placed in service as well as being low due to the time of year. Expressed in a different way, fewer than 500 people are travelling between Göschenen and Airolo every day. From April to October an extra train will run between Zurich and Bellinzona and back on the Gotthard panoramic route at weekends and on public holidays. The new “Gotthard Panorama Express” will also operate during this period, taking passengers by boat from Lucerne to Flüelen, where they board the train to continue along the Gotthard panorama route into Ticino, or vice versa. The situation regarding services from Italy remains challenging. The EuroCity trains from Milan are often delayed and depart from Chiasso with an average delay of eight minutes. However, the time lost can generally be made up using the journey time reserves factored in between Chiasso and Arth-Goldau. A total of 43 trains have been cancelled since the timetable change on 11 December 2016, mostly due to vehicle breakdowns. Thanks to the replacement train stationed in Ticino specifically for this purpose, however, the impact on national services has been minimal.
> 
> Demand along the Gotthard corridor was encouragingly high over the public holidays, with some 8,800 people passing through the GBT every day on average. This is around 30 percent more than in the same period last year. In some cases the capacity was limited over the public holidays because there were not enough trains available or because system restrictions prevented any additional ones from being put on. In a handful of cases, passengers had to be asked to wait for the next train or were diverted via the Gotthard panoramic route.
> 
> SBB is working on solving the challenges posed by any more spikes in capacity utilisation. Very high passenger volumes are expected at Easter, particularly on Zurich–Milan EuroCity trains, meaning that people are also advised to reserve seats on journeys to Ticino (reservations for services within Switzerland can be made at the ticket counter or by calling Rail Service on 0900 300 300). The findings gleaned from the first few weeks of operation will facilitate further improvements to services. Extra staff will also be on hand at Bellinzona and Arth-Goldau stations in future to provide customer information and operational support.
> 
> *Freight services running on time.*
> 
> SBB Cargo began its first scheduled freight services through the Gotthard Base Tunnel on11 December 2016. “WLV 2017”, a regular-interval timetable for wagonload freight, was also launched throughout Switzerland at the same time. SBB Cargo is now adapting in line with the increased speed of logistics operations and is serving some places as many as three times a day rather than just once as previously. Train path capacity for freight services along the Gotthard corridor is not yet fully utilised due to the time of year. Demand for transport by rail will increase during warmer season especially in the construction industry. A hundred trains travel through the GBT each day on average. These transport some 41,000 tons of goods daily, saving the equivalent of 3,600 LGV trips. The GBT is also benefiting SBB Cargo’s customers: the time saving of about 30 minutes, for instance, means that PostLogistics can now wait until later to load its postal trains heading to Ticino from the letter centre in Härkingen in the canton of Solothurn. This enables it to switch a large number of night-time LGV journeys to the railway. Freight services will reach their full potential–260 trains per day in each direction and a train length of 750 metres–when the Ceneri Base Tunnel and the 4-metre corridor open in late 2020.
> 
> Freight services are essentially running on time and without any recurring delays. Breakdowns affecting several railway companies’ locomotives and alarms in train monitoring systems are still restricting services in isolated cases. The causes are being analysed on an ongoing basis and appropriate corrective action is being taken. The specified timings for passing through the Gotthard Base Tunnel are being kept to and the delays that trains can sometimes incur while approaching the tunnel can usually be partially or even completely made up on their way through. Only a few freight services are still using the Gotthard panoramic route. This mainly happens overnight from Monday to Tuesday, when maintenance work in the tunnel limits its capacity to only one tube.
> 
> *SBB upgrading the north-south Gotthard corridor.*
> 
> The new Gotthard Base Tunnel embodies Swiss precision, innovation and reliability. Its opening on 11 December 2016 marked the key milestone for the renovated north-south Gotthard corridor. By the time the Ceneri Base Tunnel and the 4-meter corridor are placed in service in late 2020, some 25 construction projects will have been carried out on the approaches to the two base tunnels between Basel and Chiasso. Using a range of measures relating to rolling stock, construction and operations, SBB will limit the impact on customers as much as possible until the projects are completed.


http://www.sbb.ch/en/group/media/press.newsdetail.2017-2-0602_1.html


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## Coccodrillo

(please delete)


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## Coccodrillo

A fantastic example of insane bureaucracy: because of the success of the base tunnel coupled with the traditional weekly commuter rush many trains run full. However, these must be diverted over the old line because of bureaucratic safety reasons.

SBB's speaker said that in case of fire such trains would be too overcrowded to be safely evacuated. Everybody in his right mind would understand that a tunnel where the nearest escape route might be 7.5 km* away is more dangerous in case of fire than a tunnel where the farthest escape route is 160 metres away*. Sure, considering the actual risk of fire and the cost to upgrade it, the old Gotthard tunnel can reasonably continue to operate as it is now, however bureaucracy is becoming mad.

*the old tunnel is 15 km long and has no escape routes at all, no sidewalk along the tracks, and just a limited equipment for firefighters, on the other hand the base tunnel has full sidewalks and handrails for all of its length leading to escape routes every ~330 metres and is full any kind of safety equipment. However, because of grandfather rights, running an overcrowded train in the first tunnel is ok, running it in the base tunnel is forbidden.



> i63.tinyREMOVETHISpic.com/2hdv48i.png


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## Wilhem275

Grandfather rights, together with the current "I must have no responsibilities for it" policy, are generating true monsters.


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## 00Zy99

Uh, Coccodrillo, in your last post, the picture is missing.


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## Suburbanist

RSEI&ETM said:


> The EC250 high-speed electric multiple unit (EMU) developed by Stadler Rail Group, a company based in Switzerland, is the world's first single-decker, low-floor high-speed EMU.
> In October 2014, Stadler received a contract from Swiss Federal Railways (SBB) for the delivery of 29 high-speed EC250 EMUs. The contract also includes an option for additional 92 units.
> The first EC250 high-speed train was launched at InnoTrans in Berlin, Germany, in September 2016. The new trains are approved for operation in Switzerland, Germany, Austria and Italy.
> 
> 
> The high-speed train, named 'Giruno' by SBB, will operate on the line connecting Basel/Zürich with Milan through the Gotthard Base Tunnel. The first train-set will be handed over to SBB in May 2017, while commercial operations are scheduled to begin by the end of 2019.
> 
> 
> Source: Railway-Technology


Low-floor at door access or fully low-floor all throughout with those geeky bogies that only require the top of the wheels to take space on the saloon (somehow like trams)?


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## 00Zy99

At the doors, I suspect.

Those special wheel systems are not suited for high speed.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ They will have low floor only in two coaches designed for passengers on wheelchair (one coach on each side of the restaurant coach). These two coaches for handicapped people will have one door at 55 cm over the top of the rail and one at 76 cm each, because these are the standard heights for station platforms in Switzerland-Italy and Germany-Austria, respectively (although 55 cm is sometimes seen also in Germany and Austria, too). The other doors will require a step to enter the train, although this will be an improvement compared to even the recent the past (25cm platforms + high floor = 4 or 5 steps to board the train).

Anyway, the first low floor HST is the Talgo 350, it is fully low floor but AFAIK is designed for 76 cm high platforms, so it would not be low floor in Switzerland and Italy. Besides that, the Talgo 350 has traction equipment concentrated into two locomotives, while the Giruno has equipment spread along all the train.



00Zy99 said:


> Uh, Coccodrillo, in your last post, the picture is missing.


It was just the newspaper article (in Italian) where I read the news. You have to copy the URL in a new window removing the "REMOVETHIS" part, because _tinypicDOTcom_ name gets automatically censored.


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## Sunfuns

So the more popular the train becomes the less trains there will be. Makes perfect sense!


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## Suburbanist

If only the whole of Western Europe had set platform height at 710mm... That is high enough to deter virtually all attempts to cross tracks where not allowed to. And it allows enough space for all stuff under a single level.


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## rower2000

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ They will have low floor only in two coaches designed for passengers on wheelchair (one coach on each side of the restaurant coach). These two coaches for handicapped people will have one door at 55 cm over the top of the rail and one at 76 cm each, because these are the standard heights for station platforms in Switzerland-Italy and Germany-Austria, respectively (although 55 cm is sometimes seen also in Germany and Austria, too).


Austria has a standard of 55 cm, not 76 cm.


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## Coccodrillo

Track laying has started in the CBT. All works are being carried from north towards the south as this is logistically easier.

The wooden sleepers in the third photo are for a temporary track, the definitive track is ballastless.

http://www.ticinonews.ch/ticino/397421/iniziata-la-posa-dei-binari-nel-monte-ceneri

http://www.ticinonews.ch/gallery/397421/iniziata-la-posa-dei-binari-nel-monte-ceneri


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## Zaz965

north portal









south portal


























https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel


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## Suburbanist

Have they stopped diversion of trains with standing passengers to the old Gotthard railway route?


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## StuZealand

Have any of you guys from Switzerland come across some of these conspiracy videos on the likes of YouTube?

(Claims that Cern and the GBT are all part of a BIG satanic plot.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKrLO6ADTRo

Christ, they'd actually be funny if they weren't so crazy. Now go back to your devil worshiping ways. :nuts:


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## Luganese1980

StuZealand said:


> Have any of you guys from Switzerland come across some of these conspiracy videos on the likes of YouTube?
> 
> 
> 
> (Claims that Cern and the GBT are all part of a BIG satanic plot.)



Sadly, yes we did:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/...rre-satanic-ceremony-opening-worlds-longest-t


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## Zaz965

^^
only once or still ocurring? :grass:


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## StuZealand

Luganese1980 said:


> Sadly, yes we did:
> 
> https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/...rre-satanic-ceremony-opening-worlds-longest-t


I had a read through some of the hysterical comments on the site you linked to. This one really takes the cake:



> Europeans have become very evil. The evil of Hitler has not been "atoned" for, it has been magnified. My common sense tells me that taking a vacation to Europe would be putting my soul in the greatest of dangers.


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## Coccodrillo

The CBT opened today for regular traffic, although half a dozen regional trains and a few ICs run there since September. I didn't use it today, and instead made a trip on the reorganized bus network.

When the GBT opened though, I took the second northbound special train of the public opening ceremony (which was the third or fourth train accessible to public in general), and then the first northbound train of the regular 2017 timetable, and the first southbound one.

For the first time in decades, a public infrastructure wasn't opened with a special event for citizens. Usually they make public exibitions and, in case of big transport infrastructure, free trips on them like free trains or shuttle buses on new roads. This time there has been just a limited ceremony with authorities in September and, if the end of works had been postponed until recently, there would't have had an opening ceremony at all.

Zürich/Basel-Milan EuroCitys have been reduced to just two return trips instead of a dozen, because Italy asks a negative covid test for most people entering its territory, so traffic collapsed and people on trains must be checked. There are exception for cross-border commuters and people only transiting through Italy, so most cross-border regional trains keep running, it is just ECs that stop at the border station in Chiasso (which is just 50 km from Milan).


----------

