# [EST] Estonia | road infrastructure • Eesti teed



## ChrisZwolle

*Estonia / Eesti*


















*Traffic volumes around Tallinn*


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## ChrisZwolle

Rebasepoiss said:


> Pics of Laagna road in Lasnamäe, Tallinn. Lasnamäe is the biggest commieblock district in Tallinn. This road doesn't have any level crossings, exept in the beginning and in the end of the road. Pics are made by Echo(thanks! )


Cheers


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## H123Laci

whats this separatism?

isnt the "Baltic countries - Estonia - Latvia - Lithuania"  thread suitable? :lol:


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## ChrisZwolle

It has been decided to give each country a separate thread


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## H123Laci

ChrisZwolle said:


>


I like this sign: this clearly shows the recquired maneuver to go left.

in the same situation our signs (hungary) shows only a right arrow with the destinations to the right and to the left combined and doesnt show the 270°turn recquired to go left... 
its a litle bit confusing...


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## Timon91

Not so much motorways in Estonia. But I guess that the traffic volumes aren't that high :lol:


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## rpc08

"Stockholm 412" :?


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## Timon91

Probably by ferry. I doubt that there is a tunnel going to Sweden :lol:


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## Schweden

Timon91 said:


> Probably by ferry. I doubt that there is a tunnel going to Sweden :lol:


it's a secret tunnel :doh:


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## Timon91

So incredibly secret that they sign it on the normal road signs?


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## rpc08

Probably in the middle of the sea there is a sign too 

It doesn't make any sense...


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## X236K

H123Laci said:


> I like this sign: this clearly shows the recquired maneuver to go left.
> 
> in the same situation our signs (hungary) shows only a right arrow with the destinations to the right and to the left combined and doesnt show the 270°turn recquired to go left...
> its a litle bit confusing...


I like this way of signing as well, my partner always goes crazy in Czech if destination is on the left and turning is right...


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## Verso

^ Then your partner must have big problems with driving on motorways. :lol:


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## commodore

ChrisZwolle said:


>


an U-turn on a motorway is quite strange :?


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## ChrisZwolle

There probably was an entrance before where you didn't get the chance to go to Tallinn, so you have to turn here. Just my 2 cents.


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## X236K

Verso said:


> ^ Then your partner must have big problems with driving on motorways. :lol:


... with driving generaly


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## Triceratops

commodore said:


> an U-turn on a motorway is quite strange :?


a value of concept of a word "highway" in all Baltic countries is different than in Western or even Central Europe - when there are two lanes in each party and between them there is a space or even crashbarriers, then for the locals it's a first class road! I mean it's called a "motorway" or "highway", whatever, here!!!  So it's a common thing to have such U-turns on a "highway" in Baltics!


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## PLH

Triceratops said:


> then for the locals it's a first class road!


If it only were for it, then it would be OK, but these roads are actually signed with a motorway sign:



















The"motorway" ends a few kms down the road:


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## Verso

^^ Are you sure it's the same road?


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## PLH

^^ Well, I took these pics from here, so it must be the same road.


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## Verso

^^ A Slovenian, living in Lithuania?


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## Rebasepoiss

commodore said:


> an U-turn on a motorway is quite strange :?


Estonia has no motorways(though there are traffic laws for driving on motorways and construction standards for building motorways) 4-lane highways in Estonia are classified as Ist class roads where U-turns are allowed. 

For comparison:

A profile of a motorway(which we don't have) by Estonian standards:










And a profile of a Ist class road:


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## Triceratops

that 'motorway' pic was taken somewhere from Lithuania. And yes, there aren't motorways in Estonia and Latvia.


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## RipleyLV

Triceratops said:


> that 'motorway' pic was taken somewhere from Lithuania.


It's A1 near Kaunas.


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## Rebasepoiss

A few photos from Tallinn-Tartu highway. This part between Vaida and Aruvalla was finished in August, 2008:

*A wooden pedestrian bridge:*


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## Triceratops

very good pictures! :cheers: strange, why such road can't get a real highway status?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ This current section is really short, but otherwise, I don't know. I think they should consider building motorway-standard roads. For example, Tallinn's bypass is planned to be reconstructed by I class road standards. It's not that much more expensive to make it a motorway....


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## RipleyLV

Today, I made a small trip to Tallinn. I took some pictures of their roads.

*Tallinn bypass [11]*

On the 2x2 road from Narva [1]/E20 near Tallinn just before turn to [11] Tallinn bypass.









Before Veneküla junction on [11].









Junction [11] with [2]/E263 to Tartu/Tallinn.









Driving under [2]/E263.









Going right to Pärnu, left to Tartu.









Before [11] junction with [4].









2x2 [4]/E67 to Tallinn.


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## ChrisZwolle

Really nice pics. I want to visit all the Baltic states once in the next few years. Are there any decent campsites in Estonia (or LT/LV?)


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## RipleyLV

*Via Baltica [4]/E67; Tallinn - Ikla*

Joined [4]/E67.









2x2 to Pärnu.

















[4]/E67 junction with [9] to Haapsalu.

























Going left to Pärnu.









The 2x2 road ends after this junction.

































Riia/Rīga - 241km.









Cought one speeder. 









2x2 bridge over Pärnu river in Pärnu. 









Frozen Pärnu river.









Left to Riga.









Riga - 168km









After the border Ikla - Ainaži. Latvian speed limit sign.


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## Timon91

Nice report Ripley! :cheers:

It seems to be pretty cold in Estonia at the moment. The Pärnu river seems to pretty wide. Does it often freeze? AFAIK rivers don't usually freeze that quickly.


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## RipleyLV

Thanks! 



Timon91 said:


> It seems to be pretty cold in Estonia at the moment. The Pärnu river seems to pretty wide. Does it often freeze? AFAIK rivers don't usually freeze that quickly.


Wasn't that cold, temperature in Tallinn was -4 and it's been staying like this here both in LV/EST for a week or more now, so no wonder that it took some days to freeze Pärnu river.


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## Triceratops

thanks RipleyLV, really nice report!!  it seems they have not so little 2x2 roads far outside Tallinn! :cheers:


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## Rebasepoiss

Many thanks for the pictures!  Estonian police is no joke, BTW.


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## ChrisZwolle

Rebasepoiss said:


> Estonian police is no joke, BTW.


Better than a corrupt one, if you hear those stories about Ukraine and Russia where they ticket foreigners for nearly no reason. I guess that's not so much of a problem in Estonia?


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## Timon91

I guess not since it joined the EU. Still Bulgaria and Romania seem to have problems with a corrupt police, though they're in the EU. I read a newspaper article about corruption in Bulgaria a few weeks ago. It was quite shocking to read, but I guess that it's not entirely true, since most newspapers over here turn out to be quite negative about former Eastern European countries hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

Corruption was into their system for decades, you don't wipe that away overnight.


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> Better than a corrupt one, if you hear those stories about Ukraine and Russia where they ticket foreigners for nearly no reason. I guess that's not so much of a problem in Estonia?


It is still a problem in Latvia, as far as I know(by an experience of a friend who was caught speeding in Latvia a year ago)... But in Estonia, there was a major corruption scandal a few years ago and more than 70 policemen were fired and accused for bribing so nobody dares to do that any more, which is good.


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## Verso

Great pics, Ripley! But... Jelgava to Tallinn and back in a day? :shifty:


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## Triceratops

Rebasepoiss said:


> It is still a problem in Latvia, as far as I know(by an experience of a friend who was caught speeding in Latvia a year ago)... But in Estonia, there was a major corruption scandal a few years ago and more than 70 policemen were fired and accused for bribing so nobody dares to do that any more, which is good.


man, that's was actually a common thing for decades in all Eastern countries! and believe me, it will stay as long as there are people who give bribes and the punishments for cops who take them are too mild...


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## RipleyLV

Verso said:


> But... Jelgava to Tallinn and
> back in a day? :shifty:


Jelgava - Tallinn is more than a four hour of driving. I started in the morning and was home in the evening.


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## Verso

^^ Did you just drive? Chris style? 



Triceratops said:


> man, that's was actually a common thing for decades in all Eastern countries! and believe me, it will stay as long as there are people who give bribes and the punishments for cops who take them are too mild...


I would've been pretty shocked, if our cops had taken bribes, particularly on the border. I'd be so pissed off, he wouldn't dare asking me for cash again.  But I've heard Hungarian cops take bribes, or used to, but only on southeastern borders.


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## RipleyLV

Verso said:


> Did you just drive? Chris style?


 No, it was a work trip.


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## Verso

Did Chris assign you to take pics of Estonian roads?


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## RipleyLV

Yeah, he was too lazy taking pictures himself.


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## Timon91

Yeah, lazy Chris. It only takes a couple of hours to drive from Zwolle to Tallinn and back


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## Verso

If there's Zurich, I'm sure there's a Tallinn somewhere in the Netherlands too.


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## Timon91

Sure


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## ChrisZwolle

"Leningradweg". 

Well let's say that part of the Netherlands turned out to be far more communist at elections than other regions :lol:
NCPN, New Communist Party Netherlands always have their highest support from eastern Groningen.


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## Ni3lS

Those pics of Estonian highways are looking great. It seems to be a lovely landscape to drive in :yes:


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## Triceratops

Ni3lS said:


> Those pics of Estonian highways are looking great. It seems to be a lovely landscape to drive in :yes:


it depends.. mostly on all parts of roads from Tallinn to south direction you would see nothing more than unending woods!


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## Ni3lS

That's what I like, specially in the winter, when it's all covered with snow  I don't like those boring grainfields and meadows..


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## Rebasepoiss

The reconstruction of Kukruse-Jõhvi section on Tallinn-Narva highway has begun. Work is scheduled to end in October, 2010. More info here(in English): http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/Ku_Jo_ENG.pdf


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Nice PDF! They don't even do that in the Netherlands... publishing English info about road construction...


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## Rebasepoiss

The first stationary speed camera was yesterday put on the Tallinn-Tartu highway. By 30th November, there will be 16 speed cameras on this highway. Estonian Road Administration hopes to put up cameras on other highways too in the following years. Speed cameras are only one part of the plan to decrease road deaths to less than 100 by year 2015. And fortunately we are moving towards that goal. In June, only 2 people were killed on roads in Estonia.


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## ChrisZwolle

I hope the camera is placed at a reasonable place... like near a dangerous intersection instead of a "cash location".


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The cameras are placed at those road sections that have the biggest number of accidents so I think that's pretty reasonable.


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## pijanec

Will there be traffic signs indicating that there is a speed camera ahead?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Yes:


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## Triceratops

Nice to see such improvements in safety ensuring in Estonia! :cheers: Cameras are good, but I think it would be better to install them in not such visible and empty places, like to hide them a little bit..


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## ChrisZwolle

Triceratops said:


> Cameras are good, but I think it would be better to install them in not such visible and empty places, like to hide them a little bit..


I don't think so. What does it add to traffic safety if you get a bill mailed 4 weeks later? The presence of a camera should do it. Speed cameras are there for traffic safety, not to generate as much money as possible (as in: hide them, so people won't notice them when they drive there).


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## pijanec

Triceratops said:


> Cameras are good, but I think it would be better to install them in not such visible and empty places, like to hide them a little bit..


France has proved that it is much better if speed cameras are signed.


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## Rebasepoiss

Some random shots from E263 :lol: or Tallinn-Tartu highway. Sorry for the not-so-good quality:

*1.









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*


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## ABC LV

Looks good, photo quality is fine. 
How are Pernau ringroad construction works progressing?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Frankly speaking, construction works haven't started yet, unfortunately...


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## ChrisZwolle

Quality is good 

Also, I couldn't find a single car that's older than 10 years on that pic. Way to go Estonia!


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## Triceratops

Nice report, Rebasepoiss!!  The quality of shots is really good, as well as roads!! :cheers:


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## Xmaster

Great report  How long is 2x2 ? And is it gonna to be a motorway ?


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## RipleyLV

Great pictures! Among Baltic countries, Estonia has the best quality roads, the worst -- I think you can guess...


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## PLH

We're not a Baltic country  Who then?


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## Verso

Poland is more Baltic than Lithuania actually.


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## RipleyLV

Keep guessing.


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## PLH

Lithuania?

I'd say Russia - Kaliningrad Oblast, as a quasi - Baltic country


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## RipleyLV

Nope.


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## PLH

Really? But does Latvia differ very much in minus?


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## RipleyLV

Latvia has the worst quality roads among Baltic countries. I'd thought this one was easy.


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## PLH

Sorry, never been there. And I know what Baltic countries are


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## RipleyLV

Sure you do.


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## Rebasepoiss

Xmaster said:


> Great report  How long is 2x2 ? And is it gonna to be a motorway ?


At the moment, only around 20km are 2x2 starting from Tallinn. Construction works to extend the length of 2x2 to 35km should start next year. There are also plans to build an expressway all the way to Mäo(around 90km from Tallinn) but only god knows when that will happen. But I'm glad that the construction works of Mäo bypass(2x2, 6,5km) are going ahead at full speed. Mäo bypass will be ready by September, 2010:



------------------------------------------------------------------

For some reason, Estonian Road Administration hasn't decided to build or plan any motorways(yet?). I think that we have too strict rules for building motorways so the prices would skyrocket. For example, motorways must be 100% lit which is rather stupid.


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## Triceratops

Any renderings of that section which is u/c? Btw, finally a road construction update from EE!


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## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> Any renderings of that section which is u/c? Btw, finally a road construction update from EE!


I don't have renderings for Mäo bypass but I do have an overall map in English for serious road geeks:
http://www.mnt.ee/atp/doc.php?3776

I found some photos on the web about the other big project that's U/C at the moment - Kukruse-Jõhvi section on Tallinn-Narva highway:


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## RipleyLV

Well, these new 4-laned highways not necessary have to be motorways, but atleast should get higher speed limits, 120 km/h would be oki-doki.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ It's 110km/h in summer and 90km/h in winter....


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## Triceratops

^^ All right then! Way to go Estonia! Very good rules!


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## RipleyLV

From Tallinn development thread:



Tin_Can said:


> This is new Ülemiste viaduct.It's one way,two lane viaduct allowing traffic to move directly from Suur-Sõjamäe street to Järvevana road.It is a part of total reconstruction of Ülemiste intersection,although we have to wait several more years until we see some major changes there.Price of the viaduct was 39,8 mln ,so I guess its a bargain .It should be finished in few weeks time.
> 
> You can see how close the viaduct is to the railway bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Under the bridge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sideview
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> View from from Suur-Sõjamäe street.


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## Triceratops

Although unpretending but still nice bridge! Good road improvement!


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## albeva

I don't get the idea of this one way bridge there... Are they going to build a second one later on to allow traffic in reverse direction?


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## Tin_Can

@RipleyLV - Strange...that post looks familiar :lol:

@albeva - There hasn't been any clear info about Ülemiste intersection (only bits and pieces),so I don't know if there will be a bridge in the opposite direction. All I know for sure is that next year they have planned some works there and according to plans once the intersection reconstruction is finished, there will be atleast two or three new viaducts / overpasses there. The new Ülemiste intersection will be three level intersection. Of course this only happens once the government finds enough money...


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## Triceratops

Three-level intersection?! Wow, that would be the first one in Estonia, right? :banana:


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## Tin_Can

As far as I know,yes. I hope the intersection will be reconstructed soon,as traffic during rush hours is really bad there.


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## Rebasepoiss

Tin_Can said:


> @RipleyLV - Strange...that post looks familiar :lol:
> 
> @albeva - There hasn't been any clear info about Ülemiste intersection (only bits and pieces),so I don't know if there will be a bridge in the opposite direction. All I know for sure is that next year they have planned some works there and according to plans once the intersection reconstruction is finished, there will be atleast two or three new viaducts / overpasses there. The new Ülemiste intersection will be three level intersection. Of course this only happens once the government finds enough money...


A quick Google search will find you lots of information about Ülemiste interchange. To answer albeva's question: no. To answer Triceratops' question: if you consider that the interchange will have viaducts and a tunnel, then yes but not "3-level" in the classical manner. 

A video of how the interchange will look like(right click and "save as"): http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/Ylemiste_web.wmv

And some techincal drawings:
The whole thing: http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1.pdf
And everything in detail:
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-1.pdf
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-2.pdf
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-3.pdf
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-4.pdf
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-5.pdf
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-6.pdf
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-7.pdf
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08318_GE-T-1-9.pdf

It's actually planned to connect Laagna road to that interchange too, so there is room for perspective viaducts and tunnels but I don't see that happening in the next 10 years.


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## Fargo Wolf

Triceratops said:


> it depends.. mostly on all parts of roads from Tallinn to south direction you would see nothing more than unending woods!


Come on over here. There's places in Canada that's like that. Hinton to Grande Prairie in the Province of Alberta is a fine example of hours of unending woods, on a highway that started out as a resource road.



Ni3lS said:


> That's what I like, specially in the winter, when it's all covered with snow  I don't like those boring grainfields and meadows..


Don't go to Northern Alberta or Saskatchewan in general then, if you ever get the chance to come to Canada :jk: :lol:

Back on topic though, love the pics in this thread.


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## Alexriga

IS there any map of estonian roads U/C, including 4 lane roads sections U/C and existing?


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## Triceratops

Oh, I heard there should start a construction of Parnu new city bypass! Has anyone more news about that?


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## bleetz

The infrastructure in the video looks really impressive.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Yes, but I'm really starting to wonder if it's worth the money. If the big interchange manages to direct traffic away from the centre(which I really doubt), then it's great. But otherwise, I would invest the money somewhere else. For example, the pavement on some streets is in catastrophical condition, especially on small streets in residental neighbourhoods. And there are virtually no bike routes in the centre of Tallinn. Besides, you don't see real traffic jams in Tallinn.


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## ChrisZwolle

> Besides, you don't see real traffic jams in Tallinn.


Let's hope it stays that way 

A population of 400,000 is enough to create some serious traffic problems if the road network is bad. Luckily, communist building style created enough space for wide boulevards, which can handle traffic much better than say, the narrow streets of Amsterdam or Rome.


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> Let's hope it stays that way
> 
> A population of 400,000 is enough to create some serious traffic problems if the road network is bad. Luckily, communist building style created enough space for wide boulevards, which can handle traffic much better than say, the narrow streets of Amsterdam or Rome.


Exactly. All major arterial streets are at least 2+2 lanes. Tallinners who complain about our traffic situation should visit Helsinki, for example, or Riga. It took me around 25 minutes during rush hour to travel from the western port to the main railway terminal in Helsinki by bus(a distance of around 3km) You don't see that happening in Tallinn.


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## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> A population of 400,000 is enough to create some serious traffic problems if the road network is bad. Luckily, communist building style created enough space for wide boulevards, which can handle traffic much better than say, the narrow streets of Amsterdam or Rome.


I think it had more to do with Soviets than commies. We didn't have particularly wide roads in Yugoslavia, particularly Ljubljana looks like a village with its max. 4-lane arterial roads (I live close to a 2-lane arterial road :nuts. It has just 260,000 inhabitants, but a total standstill during rush hours, including the (4-lane) motorway ring. We don't even have tram.


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## Rebasepoiss

Verso said:


> I think it had more to do with Soviets than commies. We didn't have particularly wide roads in Yugoslavia, particularly Ljubljana looks like a village with its max. 4-lane arterial roads (I live close to a 2-lane arterial road :nuts. It has just 260,000 inhabitants, but a total standstill during rush hours, including the (4-lane) motorway ring. We don't even have tram.


Tallinn city centre was largely still not built up when the Soviets occupied Estonia during WW2. And the new developments already included wide streets. Many streets were even made wider by demolishing old wooden houses. That means Pärnu road, for example, is sometimes more than 50m wide. It's good for traffic flow but awful in the means of aesthetics.


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## Rebasepoiss

I'll quote from Tallinn development thread.


Rebasepoiss said:


> I think this fits here too. Anyway, Estonian Road Administration wants to remove the bottleneck on Tallinn-Tartu highway in Mõigu. The road is 1+1 in Mõigu now but 2+2 before and after Mõigu. There are 3 different alternatives(which all, in fact, include space for the future tram line):
> 1) Simply widen the road which includes demolishing around 15 small buildings.
> 
> 2) Put the through-traffic on a 700m viaduct.
> 
> 3) Put the through-traffic in a 950m tunnel.
> 
> IMO, alternative one is not the best option. It may seem to be the cheapest one but buying land and demolishing houses is never simple. The viaduct has the biggest cool-factor but it's probably not so pleasant for the people in the neighbourhood. The tunnel is definitely the most expensive one but building a tunnel is the most simple one in terms of acceptance from the local people.(Although the future tram line will definitely be a thing that nobody wants next to them)





Tin_Can said:


> Damn,I already got my hopes up for seeing planes really close up :lol:. Checked the site Rebasepoiss gave here,copied and edited map of the project and here it is:


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## ChrisZwolle

I think expropriating 15 houses and demolish them is cheaper than an elevated structure or a tunnel. 

I mean, how much does a home cost in Tallinn? Maybe € 200,000? * 15 = € 3 million. You can't build a viaduct or tunnel for that money.


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## bleetz

Yeah, I agree, it seems like demolishing those houses is the most practical option. Unless there's something that we don't know - like whether those houses are heritage. Would be great to see how they look.


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## ChrisZwolle

I found a picture of that section in Google Earth:

http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/2475956.jpg









This is tee 2 (route 2) from Tallinn to Tartu, so it's one of the three major roads from Tallinn (route 4 goes to Pärnu and route 1 to Narva)


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Nothing special over there. Those houses are mostly more than 20 years old and built during Soviet times. So € 3 million is a pretty realistic guess for buying and demolishing these houses.

You can download the 3 alternatives here: http://moigu.teedeprojekt.ee/ee/dokumendid?cat_id=12 . They work in Google Earth.


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## Triceratops

And they even dispute about that?! That's just ridiculous to offer two variants of elevated road or a tunnel! :nuts: I really doubt even the residents of that area would be a bit against such expansion of the road which include demolishing their ancient ugly private houses! But in terms of prestige, the idea with elevated highway would be just the most suitable IMO!


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## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> And they even dispute about that?! That's just ridiculous to offer two variants of elevated road or a tunnel! :nuts: I really doubt even the residents of that area would be a bit against such expansion of the road which include demolishing their ancient ugly private houses! But in terms of prestige, the idea with elevated highway would be just the most suitable IMO!


To make an analysis on environmental impact, it's (almost always) necessary to have different alternatives. Actually there's 4 alternatives. Alternative 0 is leaving the situation as it is.


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## ABC LV

Actually building such tunnel might be cheaper than building viaduct there. Problem is that tunnel maintenance is a lot more expensive that viaduct maintenance.


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## vatse

Alexriga said:


> IS there any map of estonian roads U/C, including 4 lane roads sections U/C and existing?


A map of 2+2 highways in Estonia.
Some of these routes would be built during next 5 or 6 years. Some of these like Tartu-Elva would be built may be even after 15 years.
There are also long term plans for 2+2 highways from (Tallinn) Ääsmäe-Pärnu and Jõhvi-Russian border but they haven't started planning of these routes yet.


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## Buddy Holly

Yes, but do any of those houses include extensive land ownership? In other words, what if the owners have a lot of land in the area? Then it becomes more expensive. Unless, of course, the land is public property in which case it is a lot cheaper to simply demolish them.


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## Triceratops

Really strange to see that Tallinn-Tartu is not even planned to be modernised into a motorway.. Why is it so? Don't they want to connect two most significant cities of Estonia?


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## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> Really strange to see that Tallinn-Tartu is not even planned to be modernised into a motorway.. Why is it so? Don't they want to connect two most significant cities of Estonia?


Of course there's a plan but green lines on the map are those which already have a pre-project or it's in the making.


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## Gareth

Looking at the photos on here, Estonia's signage seems more or less identical to Finlands. I assume this is a recent, post-Soviet development.


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## vatse

Triceratops said:


> Really strange to see that Tallinn-Tartu is not even planned to be modernised into a motorway.. Why is it so? Don't they want to connect two most significant cities of Estonia?


We can say that there is an idea to connect two cities but no plans yet.

Actually they will start to plan the route for the rest of future expressway from Mäo to Tartu probably next year. But it will take a very long time before all the road would be really built.


----------



## Tin_Can

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think expropriating 15 houses and demolish them is cheaper than an elevated structure or a tunnel.
> 
> I mean, how much does a home cost in Tallinn? Maybe € 200,000? * 15 = € 3 million. You can't build a viaduct or tunnel for that money.


 Yes,but timewise it would be bad solution,it could take years before they finally reach road construction due to legal disputes what demolition would result. ..usually angry arguements which end up in court (people tend to go crazy when theres a chance to sell real estate to state hno


----------



## Rebasepoiss

3 different videos of future planned expressways:

1) E20 Rõmeda-Haljala section:





2)E263 Aruvalla-Kose section:





3)E263 Võõbu-Mäo section:


----------



## Triceratops

Cool visualization vids! Will these highways really look like that?! If so, then it would be just fantastic, you know! :cheers:


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ If they get built, then yes, they will look more or less like that.


----------



## Alexriga

Good progress on Tallinn - Narva direction in recent years, almost half way is 2*2 already!


----------



## RipleyLV

Nice visualizations, but will these planned 2+2 roads be classified as expressways? In other maps I've seen them classified as 1st class roads only.


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## Rebasepoiss

Timon91 said:


> In Enschede, NL, there is about the same amount of snow as in that part of Estonia right now


^^
A map that shows the thickness of snow in Estonia this morning.


----------



## Timon91

Ah, in that case I was wrong. Over here we have about 8 cm


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## RipleyLV

Rebasepoiss said:


> A map that shows the thickness of snow in Estonia this morning.


What if it shows the temperature? :runaway:


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## Timon91

Than there is no winter in Estonia


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## RipleyLV

I meant in minus.


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## Danielk2

Then it would be really freaking cold


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## Rebasepoiss

We can handle half a metre of snow but -47C would probably stop all life in Tallinn


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## RipleyLV

There's -58C too. The north part of Tallinn would become a glacier.


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## Timon91

-5 here


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## Hasper

Some pictures of the Kukruse-Johvi stretch (E20) from the local newspaper.
View of the new 1+1 lane road section from the Kukruse viaduct:



Kukruse viaduct:
 

Building the Tammiku interchange:



Kukruse interchange couple of months ago:


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## Tin_Can

^^ Nice! I guess,by the lack of snow,its taken some time ago.  I haven't paid much attention to the project,when is its deadline?


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## Triceratops

Not bad, looks as if it is made with a perspective for widening it to 2x2! Cool!


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## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> Not bad, looks as if it is made with a perspective for widening it to 2x2! Cool!


No...it's already 2x2.


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## Xmaster

Cool road. How long will this stretch be? I see it's 2 lanes each dorection, but without hard shoulder ?


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## Rebasepoiss

Xmaster said:


> Cool road. How long will this stretch be? I see it's 2 lanes each dorection, but without hard shoulder ?


7,5km long. And the road has a hard shoulder. Check this for more information: http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/Ku_Jo_ENG.pdf


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## Hasper

> I haven't paid much attention to the project,when is its deadline?


 November 2010. The main road should be completed a bit earlier.



> Cool road. How long will this stretch be? I see it's 2 lanes each dorection, but without hard shoulder ?


 The length is about 7km. ~5km of 2x2 road (from Kukruse interchange till Johvi interchange) + ~2km of 1x2 road (from 155,9km till Kukruse interchange and from Johvi interchange till 163,2km). All with hard wide shoulders and a median in the center.


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## Rebasepoiss

On this Sunday, 10 January, I took some pics on my way to my summer cottage to clear its roof from excessive snow. 




1. Deep in Tallinn's suburbia. On the right is Tiskre.









2. Reaching Tabasalu. My friend used to live in the tower block far on the right.









3. Still in Tabasalu.









4.









5.









6.









7.









8. Reaching Suurupi









9.









10.









11. In Vääna-Jõesuu









12. The road gets really slippery here. The snow is covered by a thin layer of ice. Driving speed was 70km/h or below.









13.









14.









15.









16.









17. Reaching Keila-Joa. Here is a manor house(unfortunately in ruins) and a beautiful waterfall. There were lots of people that day visiting it.









18.









19. One of the very few 60km/h speed limits in Estonia. It's usually 50km/h or 70km/h.









20.









21.









22.









23. Turning right for Lohusalu.









24. The small road that leads to Lohusalu.









25. And a bonus pic. You can see the sea hiding behind the trees .


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## ChrisZwolle

You have a summer cottage? Fancy!  Great pics by the way.


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> You have a summer cottage? Fancy!  Great pics by the way.


It kind of belongs to the whole family, actually. Lohusalu peninsula and its surroundings are full of summer cottages, most of them from the Soviet era(including the one we own).


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## Tin_Can

Ahh,you took the scenic route.  It's my favourite road in Estonia (ok,maybe few roads in Southern Estonia come close to it) It's really nice driving experience,constant curves & good roadside views (sea,cliffs & nice forests)


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## Rebasepoiss

Tin_Can said:


> Ahh,you took the scenic route.  It's my favourite road in Estonia (ok,maybe few roads in Southern Estonia come close to it) It's really nice driving experience,constant curves & good roadside views (sea,cliffs & nice forests)


I have to agree with you on this one. The road became especially good when they reconstructed a large part of it a few years ago.


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## Rebasepoiss

*Ice, ice, baby!*

At the moment, 4 different official ice roads are opened in Estonia.
There are some special rules on ice roads:
1) You are allowed to use ice roads only during the daytime. When visibility drops below 300m, one is not allowed to use the ice road.
2) Overtaking, stopping and driving outside the bordered road is prohibited.
3) Speed has to be below 25km/h or between 40km/h and 70km/h. Speeds between 25 and 40km/h may cause resonance which damages the ice.
4) Seat belts *may not* be fastened.
5) Distance between cars has to be at least 250m.
----
At the moment, the maximum allowed weight per car is 2,5 tonnes. This may vary depending on the condition of the ice.

A map of the current ice roads:


And this is what an ice road looks like(not my picture):


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## Xmaster

Damn, sounds brilliant !  So how thick is currently ice ? It seems like infrastructure improvement by nature


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## Rebasepoiss

Xmaster said:


> Damn, sounds brilliant !  So *how thick is currently ice ?* It seems like infrastructure improvement by nature


According to Baltice.org, 20-35cm. It would be a lot thicker if we didn't have so much snow this year. Snow acts like a warm blanket


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## Fuzzy Llama

Wow. That's simply awesome


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## Timon91

On average, how many days per year are those ice roads opened?


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## Rebasepoiss

Timon91 said:


> On average, how many days per year are those ice roads opened?


Unfortunately I couldn't find if such statistics have been made or are available online.
It depends totally on the winter. Some years no ice roads are opened at all. You know, global warming and everything .


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## Timon91

Okay, thanks  Are there any other countries that have ice roads when possible? The only other European one I heard about was an ice road crossing the IJsselmeer in The Netherlands in 1963. In North-America there are some ice-roads in the north. Anyone else who has seen the series "Ice-road truckers?"


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## Wover

I´ve been on an official ice road in Finland, but everywhere where the winters are cold, you´ll find (unofficial) iceroads I think.

Some pictures from the Finnish road:


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## ChrisZwolle

I wonder if they salt ice roads


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## x-type

i was sure that ice should be at least 80 cm fat to face out with weight of car!


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## MAG

I admire anyone who is brave enough to drive on ice. Call me a wimp but I could only drive on an ice road if the car were equipped with a toilet. 
Do you need chains or spikes on the tires to drive on an ice road?



.


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## ChrisZwolle

x-type said:


> i was sure that ice should be at least 80 cm fat to face out with weight of car!


No, 20 - 30 cm is enough to carry a car, maybe just over 50 cm to carry a light truck. The water actually carries most of the weight, and there are almost no tides in the Baltic Sea.


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## Rebasepoiss

MAG said:


> I admire anyone who is brave enough to drive on ice. Call me a wimp but I could only drive on an ice road if the car were equipped with a toilet.
> *Do you need chains or spikes on the tires to drive on an ice road?*
> 
> 
> 
> .


You need winter tyres but those are compulsory everywhere during the winter in Estonia. Studded tyres and/or snow chains are allowed but not necessary.

If you drive with a constant speed there's no reason why the car should loose control and if it does, the only thing you're probably going to hit is a wall of snow.

And if you worry about falling through ice, you should remember that thorough checks of the ice conditions are made daily. I can't recall anyone dying on an ice road in Estonia. There have been some cases where the ice has broken and the car has sunken but these have all been on illegal ice roads.


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## Czas na Żywiec

That's brilliant. Screw building bridges, just drive to and from the islands in the winter. I'd love to drive over one of those.


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## CptSchmidt

Very cool. 

The Tibbitt to Contwoyto Winter Road in Nunavut is the longest ice road in the world at about 600km long. It is the only road that links Nunavut to the rest of the country. 

Tuktoyaktuk Winter Road connects Tuktoyaktuk to Inuvik; it's built over the frozen Mackenzie River and parts of the Arctic Ocean.


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## Wover

http://uudised.err.ee/index.php?0&popup=video&id=30433

Estonian news report about the ice roads (situation is still the same as in the map above, but maybe they will open an ice road from the mainland to Saaremaa. But in the video they say that the ice is still "porridge" there). Maybe an Estonian can translate it properly ?


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## Rebasepoiss

Wover said:


> http://uudised.err.ee/index.php?0&popup=video&id=30433
> 
> Estonian news report about the ice roads (situation is still the same as in the map above, but maybe they will open an ice road from the mainland to Saaremaa. But in the video they say that the ice is still "porridge" there). Maybe an Estonian can translate it properly ?


You pretty much already said why they can't open the ice road between Saaremaa and mainland yet: even though the ice thickness is around 20 cm in the weakest area, the top layer of the ice is soft and rather fragile. If cold weather continues, the ice road may be opened in a week, perhaps.

OT: It's always nice to see foreigners know a bit of Estonian .


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## Rebasepoiss

FINALLY, the I stage of reconstructing Tallinn-Narva highway between Tallinn border and Jõelähtme interchange will begin. The works will start in March and will be finished at the end of 2011. 3,7km of it will be 2x3 and 3,1km will be 2x2 lanes. 2 new interchanges will be built, including 1 railway tunnel and 1 road tunnel(both the first in Estonia). Besides that, 5,8 km of collector roads, 8km of bicycle/pedestrian routes, a 564m long noise barrier and a bridge for pedestrians will be built. The cost of the project is € 24 million of which 80% is funded by the EU. 
Project plan: http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/V_o_Maardu__ldplaan__v_ike_.pdf

The Väo interchange which connects Tallinn-Narva highway, Tallinn ringroad and Laagna road has been put on hold due to land issues but construction is likely to begin next year.


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## RipleyLV

Wake up, Estonians! It's about time to start using this sign.


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> Wake up, Estonians! It's about time to start using this sign.


Tell this to the road engineers over here. But until they stick strictly to Ist class road standards when building dual carriageways, I don't care that much.


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## Triceratops

^ Agreed! As long as it's completely secure and comfortable, and is a dual carriageway, then there's no problem we don't have them, it's about image mostly...


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## RipleyLV

Rebasepoiss said:


> Tell this to the road engineers over here.


To all Estonian roadgeeks, start collecting signatures. 

In the middle of something else, do you also know how much costs the 2nd stage for this project?


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> To all Estonian roadgeeks, start collecting signatures.
> 
> In the middle of something else, do you also know how much costs the 2nd stage for this project?


The procurement for the 2nd stage is yet to be held so no.


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## Wover

Graphical road safety campaign for wearing seatbelts on the back seat:

http://arendus.ecwador.net/liikluskasvatus/


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## Triceratops

^ Lovely! Just as those 'stickmen' in the games! But is it really like that in real life, isn't that exaggerated a bit?


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## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> ^ Lovely! Just as those 'stickmen' in the games! But is it really like that in real life, isn't that exaggerated a bit?


Per haps, but not much.
E=(mv2)/2. A 60kg person has a force of nearly 5800N when a crash happens at 50km/h. That's relevant to 580kg....So almost 600kg pushing the front seat passenger against his/her seat belt.

Besides, when the car rolls, the passenger without a seat belt will likely be flying around and damaging others.


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## Wover

I was in Tartu earlier today and saw a strange traffic sign:










Ala means zone (like in the 30kph zones, the restriction stands until another sign says it doesn't anymore, no matter if you go past intersections).

Now my question is: what is the general right-of-way rule in Estonia? In Belgium it's that drivers coming from the right always have right of way, unless otherwise stated by signs. So in that context a sign like this would be pretty useless.


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## Triceratops

But what does the sign itself mean, despite the 'zone'? Zone of what?


----------



## vatse

Wover said:


> I was in Tartu earlier today and saw a strange traffic sign:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ala means zone (like in the 30kph zones, the restriction stands until another sign says it doesn't anymore, no matter if you go past intersections).
> 
> Now my question is: what is the general right-of-way rule in Estonia? In Belgium it's that drivers coming from the right always have right of way, unless otherwise stated by signs. So in that context a sign like this would be pretty useless.


Not 100 % sure but I think that we have same rule in Estonia.
Just most of drivers in Estonia have used to this that if you don't have a stop or give the way sign you have right of way.
This signs of zones just let you know taht you have to be more careful and give way to all the traffic coming from right. Without this sign the rules would be same of course. It's just to remind you that you are in the zone where all the crossroads have same rules.


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## RipleyLV

Triceratops said:


> But what does the sign itself mean, despite the 'zone'? Zone of what?


Vienādas nozīmes krustojums.


----------



## Triceratops

RipleyLV said:


> Vienādas nozīmes krustojums.


Right, stupid me, thanks, I knew that tbh, but that "zone" just made it complicated to recall, not an often view in Baltics, I suppose.


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## lucky1

Ülemiste junction:


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## Triceratops

^ Absolutely wonderful project! This should become the biggest junction in Estonia. How much of the shown already exists or totally evrything will be built new?


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## RipleyLV

First tunnel in the Baltics.


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## Xmaster

RipleyLV said:


> First tunnel in the Baltics.


I don't think so. Maybe longest


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> ^ Absolutely wonderful project! This should become the biggest junction in Estonia. How much of the shown already exists or totally evrything will be built new?


Current situation:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=59.423492,24.787989&spn=0.006757,0.022724&t=h&z=16


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## Tin_Can

Ülemiste junction construction should start in either June or July,this year, and should last about 2-3years.


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## Rebasepoiss

The reconstruction of E263 between Aruvalla and Kose will finally begin this year. It will be reconstructed into a 4-lane first class road with limited access and grade-separated junctions. Here's the video I've already posted in this thread before:





And here's the brochure(in English): http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/Voldik_ENG_0803181.pdf (If it doesn't work in your web browser, click "save link as")


----------



## Tin_Can

From Pärnu Development Thread:


Tin_Can said:


> According to latest study,construction of Pärnu highway bypass might be up to 40% cheaper than originally planned,because of economic depression and low construction prices. (500 million EEK instead of 800 million EEK :cheers This allows extended road construction and building part of the project what originally was excluded from the main plan - connection between Papiniidu bridge and Riia & Paide Highway junction.
> 
> Construction should start in this year and should be finished in autumn 2011.
> 
> Link to the news: http://www.ehitusuudised.ee/?ArticleID=026bd030-7f15-426a-b0ca-8e17ee4acbda
> 
> Link to the project: http://www.mnt.ee/atp/?id=2733
> 
> ..and the project plan (worth checking out,it shows the full extent of the project): http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/Parnu_umbersoit_SITUATSIOON.pdf
> 
> ^
> same plan on small scale (orange - planned new Pärnu bypass):


----------



## Triceratops

Some serious updates of highway improvements in Estonia, nice to hear that! May be there are some works going on already now on any roads?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Rebasepoiss said:


> The reconstruction of E263 between Aruvalla and Kose will finally begin this year. It will be reconstructed into a 4-lane first class road with limited access and grade-separated junctions. Here's the video I've already posted in this thread before:


Looking at this video, I think it's time for Estonia to formally introduce motorway status


----------



## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> Looking at this video, I think it's time for Estonia to formally introduce motorway status


Tell me about it...



Triceratops said:


> Some serious updates of highway improvements in Estonia, nice to hear that! May be there are some works going on already now on any roads?


Yes, there are. For example, the old concrete par of the E20 between Tallinn border and Maardu is being demolished on one side at the moment. It's still too cold to do asphalt works so nothing much isn't going on....yet.


----------



## Tin_Can

Rebasepoiss said:


> Tell me about it...
> 
> 
> Yes, there are. For example, the old concrete par of the E20 between Tallinn border and Maardu is being demolished on one side at the moment. It's still too cold to do asphalt works so nothing much isn't going on....yet.


Btw,did you know that this concrete part on St.Petersburg Highway,Tallinn metro area,was built after WW II by German POWs same way as pre-war era German Autobahns? And that only major repair it had,was in 1960s :nuts: Talk about history of this road.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Yep, I did. And for some time it was the busiest part of the Estonian highway network. It wasn't the surface quality that bothered me most about this road, though. It was the fact that all the junctions were at-grade. So if you were coming from Iru and wanted to drive towards Narva, you had to make a right turn, then race trucks and other traffic across two lanes and make a U-turn. After that you again had to race the traffic and squeeze between it....it was a fu**ing hell-hole.


----------



## S.T.A.S.

When coming from the east and near the river pirita, it always starts to get bumpy, for me its like an alarm, because the car will hit the pot-holes and u will suddenly wake up and know you're 15 mins from the airport. I am so glad this road will be redone properly...at last!


----------



## Hasper

There are plans to start reconstruction of the Romeda - Haljala section (E20) at the end of the year:
http://romeda-haljala.ramboll.ee/index.php?lang=en
And to build a new grade separated junction on E67 near Tallinn:
http://www.kprojekt.ee/docs/08136_Eelprojekt_Leht_T-2A.pdf



> Some serious updates of highway improvements in Estonia, nice to hear that! May be there are some works going on already now on any roads?


Tallinn-Narva 50.3-70.6km repair works. But only repair works. The U-turns and the same level junctions stay.  

Also Viitna bypass construction should have started, but I am not sure. It will be a new 4 lane section (70,6-78,9km, E20). Construction began in 1989, but due to the collapse of the Soviet Union, the project has been on hold since 1990.





> Tell this to the road engineers over here. But until they stick strictly to Ist class road standards when building dual carriageways, I don't care that much.


 But they don't.  
-Parnu bypass. 4-lanes. Traffic lights, 70/50km/h speed limit.
-Mao bypass. The reconstructed Parnu-Rakvere highway section is said to be 1 class 4 lane highway for 1.4km out of 2.3km. But it is a joke! Same level crossings and those additional lanes used as acceleration and deceleration lanes.
-Purposed Tartu-Elva highway section. 4-lanes, with U-turns.
-Purposed Rakvere-Someru. 1 class, will have roundabouts.



> Btw,did you know that this concrete part on St.Petersburg Highway,Tallinn metro area,was built after WW II by German POWs same way as pre-war era German Autobahns? And that only major repair it had,was in 1960s Talk about history of this road.


 This road section has nothing to do with the Germans. It was totally rebuild in 1967, from scratch, including widening from 2 lanes to 2+2 lanes. It was the first highway in Estonia to have 4 lanes and a median.
The old German road is long gone. There are no visible traces of it left since 1980. But you could see it, when they removed the pavement, during the 2005 E20 reconstruction works.









But think about it. This road was in service for 40 years without repairs! I highly doubt, that this new road will hold for 5 years.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

On Monday, 3rd of May, speed limits will rise once again for the summer from 90km/h to 100km/h and 110km/h. Here's a map of increased speed limits: http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/Piirkiirused_2010.pdf


----------



## Xmaster

^^ In Lithuania, we raise speed limit in motorways from 110 km/h to 130 km/h on 1st April. It seem, that in Estonia winter goes away later


----------



## Tin_Can

Hasper said:


> ...But think about it. This road was in service for 40 years without repairs! I highly doubt, that this new road will hold for 5 years.


Yea,those new roads don't have a really long life expectancy (mostly because of cheap materials & construction methods used),but I would not point out that stretch on St.Petersburg Highway as something remarkable...last 20 or so years it has been one of the worst highway sections in Estonia in terms of road surface quality (there isn't any!) & road safety. Honestly,I'm suprised that there hasn't been higher number of accidents (just imagine going there 100km/h and losing control over a car)

Anyway,it's really good that this section of E20 get's finally rebuilt :cheers:


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Hasper said:


> But they don't.
> -Parnu bypass. 4-lanes. Traffic lights, 70/50km/h speed limit.
> -Mao bypass. The reconstructed Parnu-Rakvere highway section is said to be 1 class 4 lane highway for 1.4km out of 2.3km. But it is a joke! Same level crossings and those additional lanes used as acceleration and deceleration lanes.
> -Purposed Tartu-Elva highway section. 4-lanes, with U-turns.
> -Purposed Rakvere-Someru. 1 class, will have roundabouts.
> 
> But think about it. This road was in service for 40 years without repairs! I highly doubt, that this new road will hold for 5 years.


Pärnu bypass is not a I class road anyway, it's a city street. It would've been pointless to build grade-separated junctions because if traffic density goes up high enough, they'll build another bypass completely out of Pärnu.

Don't know why the Mäo bypass is being built this way, probably becuase traffic density isn't high enough.

It has been decided that Tartu-Elva will not be upgraded to a I class road due to low traffic density. But since the traffic density is so low, building a motorway-like road would be insane anyway. And the proposed project had 2 U-turns for the whole way, which seems more reasonable than spending € 10 million on an extra junction.

Where did you get the information that Rakvere-Sõmeru will be built as a I class road? It will be 2x2 lanes, yes, but I class?

I do think that we should start building motorway-standard roads to clearly make a distinction between a 2x2 and a 2x2. One with at-grade junctions, narrower hard-shoulders, unlimited acces. The other with grade-separated junctions, wider hard-shoulders, limited access.

And about roads lasting 5 years: There's a large part of Via Baltica that was reconstructed more than 5 years ago and it looks pretty good even today. It has a lot to do with traffic density, though.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

At the moment, a public vote among the citizens of Tallinn is being held whether to lower the speed limit in the city centre to 40km/h or not. Recently a research was made which showed that lowering the speed limit would increase traffic safety and decrease the number of pedestrian deaths by 20%. More important arterial streets would still have a speed limit of 50km/h, though.

IMO, a public vote is not a good option in this matter. Speed limits aren't beloved by most people anyway so why would they want to lower them. Today, most people drive 55-60km/h in the city, so a better solution would be to enforce the current speed limit so people would actually follow it.


----------



## Wover

I don't really get the point. Most residential areas already have a 40kph speed limit and on the bigger roads there are pedestrian crossings only with traffic lights..


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Wover said:


> I don't really get the point. Most residential areas already have a 40kph speed limit and on the bigger roads there are pedestrian crossings only with traffic lights..


I'd say most of the small streets in Tallinn still have a speed limit of 50km/h. A speed limit of 40km/h is very rarely used.


----------



## Tin_Can

Rebasepoiss said:


> At the moment, a public vote among the citizens of Tallinn is being held whether to lower the speed limit in the city centre to 40km/h or not. Recently a research was made which showed that lowering the speed limit would increase traffic safety and decrease the number of pedestrian deaths by 20%. More important arterial streets would still have a speed limit of 50km/h, though.
> 
> IMO, a public vote is not a good option in this matter. Speed limits aren't beloved by most people anyway so why would they want to lower them. Today, most people drive 55-60km/h in the city, so a better solution would be to enforce the current speed limit so people would actually follow it.


Where can I vote NO? I find it useless..how are they going to enforce it? Most drivers even now exceed 50km/h speed limit within Tallinn,so they suddenly expect that drivers will follow 40km/h limit? :nuts: 

My point is that it's one of those pseudo problems,meant for diverting public attention from more pressing issues - redesigning few of most dangerous interchanges,creating better traffic scheme (some locations are deadly for both pedestrians & car drivers),building sidewalks for pedestrians (in places you simply can't walk around,'cos there aren't any sidewalks..there's only a road for cars :no,placing traffic lights on most needed places & fixing existing traffic lights. 

For example - to get to my work,I need to cross St.Petersburg highway with it's heavy traffic. I can do it in three different locations near my workplace and *on all those locations pedestrian traffic lights don't work*,meaning that I have to cross the road with red light & on a really dangerous way. Btw,those pedestrian traffic lights are with buttons,i.e. you need to press the button to switch lights. I'd say,probably only 75% of such traffic lights really work here,rest of them...well,they are useless. Makes you wonder,if Signaal AS actually provides maintenance to traffic lights at all.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wikipedia:









Why would they add road 92? Is this road so important?


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## ChrisZwolle

Are there still plans to construct a bridge from the mainland to Saaremaa? (and maybe another one to Hiiuma?)


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## Pansori

Are there any maps with the existing and/or planned 2+2 roads in Estonia? I know it's possible to track it via Google maps these days but maybe there is some simple map already?

Also, what about a map with traffic volumes?


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> Why would they add road 92? Is this road so important?


It's the only road that connects Pärnu, Viljandi and Tartu, so yes, it's rather important.




ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there still plans to construct a bridge from the mainland to Saaremaa? (and maybe another one to Hiiuma?)


There is a plan but it's not a top priority, especially considering that the traffic flow to Saaremaa is rather small. Traffic between Saaremaa and Hiiumaa is too small to build a bridge there.



Pansori said:


> Are there any maps with the existing and/or planned 2+2 roads in Estonia? I know it's possible to track it via Google maps these days but maybe there is some simple map already?
> 
> Also, what about a map with traffic volumes?


For current 2x2 highways, check Michelin's map. There are quite a lot of 2x2 roads planned but most of them won't be built in the next 5 years. I can make a map about 2x2 sections that have a fixed completion date when I'm at home, though.

2009 traffic density map is here: http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/2009_aasta_liiklusloenduse_tulemused_9.pdf


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## Wover

Rebasepoiss said:


> It's the only road that connects Pärnu, Viljandi and Tartu, so yes, it's rather important.


But a very crappy road anyway . I was on a bus from Pärnu to Viljandi yesterday and it´s really so crappy.. I did see signs that a road reconstruction is planned, but they should build a completely new road that goes directly from Pärnu to Viljandi, so that there´s no big detour like now.


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## vatse

Pansori said:


> Are there any maps with the existing and/or planned 2+2 roads in Estonia? I know it's possible to track it via Google maps these days but maybe there is some simple map already?
> 
> Also, what about a map with traffic volumes?


Re-post from last November -

A map of 2+2 highways in Estonia.
Some of these routes would be built during next 5 or 6 years. Some of these like Tartu-Elva would be built may be even after 15 years.
There are also long term plans for 2+2 highways from (Tallinn) Ääsmäe-Pärnu and Jõhvi-Russian border but they haven't started planning of these routes yet.










Currently they are building 3+3 highway between Tallinn and Maardu instead of current 2+2 highway. Otherwise I think that there are no more updates.


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## Pansori

^^
Thanks. Btw, Flickr photos don't work in SSC anymore. I had to copy the address and paste it in the address bar.


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## Rebasepoiss

Wover said:


> But a very crappy road anyway . I was on a bus from Pärnu to Viljandi yesterday and it´s really so crappy.. I did see signs that a road reconstruction is planned, but they should build a completely new road that goes directly from Pärnu to Viljandi, so that there´s no big detour like now.


The highway between Viljandi and Tartu was largely reconstructed recently but you are probably right about the condition of the road between Viljandi and Pärnu. I haven't driven there for ages myself.

A new road between Viljandi and Pärnu is very very unlikely to be built. There's a huge bog between those two towns which would make road construction extremely expensive. That's also the Soomaa national park which is part of Natura 2000 areas and *one of only eleven PAN parks.* You really have to be a nature hater to build any highways there, especially between two towns as small as Viljandi and Pärnu.


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## Triceratops

If the things would go smooth in Estonia and the planned with u/c 2x2 highways will be done soon, in not distant future you'll have a 2x2 highway connection wth Russia on St.Petersburg highway!


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## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> If the things would go smooth in Estonia and the planned with u/c 2x2 highways will be done soon, in not distant future you'll have a 2x2 highway connection wth Russia on St.Petersburg highway!


I don't think 2x2 all the way to Russia is really necessary, at least with current AADT. What is more problematic, though, is the road alignment between Jõhvi and the border: lots of tight curves and many lorries. 
Fortunately, a new route for a 2x2 highway between Jõhvi and Narva is being planned at the moment but there are no certain plans for construction in the coming years.

IMO, we should invest more(than we do now) in small-scale projects, for example creating separated paths for pedestrians and cyclists in villages, making intersections more safe, paving gravel roads, improving surface quality on smaller roads etc.


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## ChrisZwolle

Rebasepoiss said:


> IMO, we should invest more(than we do now) in small-scale projects, for example creating separated paths for pedestrians and cyclists in villages, making intersections more safe, paving gravel roads, improving surface quality on smaller roads etc.


Yep. Traffic volumes in Estonia are very low, only a few roads qualify for a 4-lane expansion (Tallinn bypass comes to mind). Maybe some 2-lane or 2+1 bypasses around towns. I would also upgrade the Pärnu bypass to 4 lanes. A new alignment there seems tricky. 

If most roads have good surface quality, it may be an idea to collectively build the Via Baltica motorway together with Lithuania and Latvia. On the other hand, traffic volumes are still very low... The LV/EST and LT/LV borders on the Via Baltica are the busiest in the region, but only carry 3,500 vehicles per day.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ It's even less than that. AADT on Via Baltica before the Latvian border is only around 2200. It's a III class road with good pavement quality. The condition of Via Baltica in Estonia is more of a phsychological problem: people feel a bit insecure about the fact that the only road connetcion to Western Europe is a 2-lane highway. That's also the main reason why it should be built if money is available. I imagine a lot of tourists would travel between Baltic countries more if there was a motorway connection to link them.


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## RipleyLV

Rebasepoiss said:


> IMO, we should invest more(than we do now) in small-scale projects, for example creating separated paths for pedestrians and cyclists in villages, making intersections more safe, *paving gravel roads*, improving surface quality on smaller roads etc.


If I'm not mistaken, than more than half of all the roads in Estonia are gravel, I remember, I had a excursion three years ago to Saaremaa, I was in a bus and practically the only road on the island that wasn't gravel was to Kuressaare.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't think it really matters if a local road is a gravel road, as long as frequently-trafficked roads are paved (over 200 vehicles per day and residential streets). 

Over 80% of Latvia's road mileage is gravel or unpaved, although I believe the majority of that are unimportant rural and village roads. I guess it's the same or better in Estonia.


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## RipleyLV

ChrisZwolle said:


> Over 80% of Latvia's road mileage is gravel or unpaved, although I believe the majority of that are unimportant rural and village roads.


Those are V-roads you're talking about, which indeed are unimportant village/forest roads. All A-roads are paved and only 20% of P-roads are gravel. 

About Estonia, I was refering to their regional roads, that most of them aren't paved, for example, Pärnu-Lihula and other roads from Saaremaa in direction to Tallinn, but, they are very well maintained though.


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## Rebasepoiss

40% of Estonia's national road network is unpaved. This does not, however, include city streets and local and private roads. I can't find any data about them but most local roads are gravel.


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## Rebasepoiss

I found a very recent video of the E20 Kukruse-Jõhvi highway construction.
You can also watch previous construction updates by the same user.


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## Alexriga

vatse your borders of Estonia are very strange :lol:


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## ssh

Since the last border treaty between Estonia and Russia was signed in 1920, many maps include two eastern borders - the official ones as well as the new "control line" (the de facto border). I reckon he just chose a random one and painted over it.


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## vectom

wait. can't catch up with one thing. sorry for my stupid question, but I read most of this thread, and still doubt with this:

is there any 'standard' motorway profiled road in Estonia today(1+2 && 2+1, plus additional 1&1 road for helping during possible motorway blockades)? That would be like this one from a photo:









I'm getting impression that there aren't many roads in Estonia that are even wider than 1+1 (standard one lane to each direction). Is that true? Even these new ones in construction, are these only 2+2 (so called 'fast highways', without de-leveled crossings with bridges, and possibly without fences)?

thanks.


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## Triceratops

^ As if you didn't know both Estonia and Latvia don't have motorways even though there is one general standard of it, still no road, considering that there are quite some very good 2x2 highways, can manage to get this status here. But I believe in five years there will appear at least one motorway in Estonia! :cheers:


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## vectom

thanks for clarification , man. Still tough for me to understand why there aren't motorways over there, if it's a legacy from SSSR, it's been 20 years now since indpendence and socalled prosperity, and 6+ years full EU membership. Or traffic in Estonia and Latvia is that much low and internationaly unimportant so there's simply no need?
But still, how the hell EU tolerated that lack of basic infrastructure, i guess it's important having full motorways for settling businesses and industry and making flow of goods and services eu standardly common. What about eu funds, are there any news about subsides from Brussels for this kind of infrastructure in between these two countries?
I just can't, can't, and can't believe to upper post that 40% of estonian roads are unpaved! What the hell with that, in that case, even Albania has better network!


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## ChrisZwolle

Traffic volumes are very low in Estonia. For example the Tallinn - Rakvere 2x2 expressway carries between 6.000 and 14.000 vehicles per day. At such volumes, you can allow stuff like U-turns. 

They did a feasibility study for a Tallinn - Tartu motorway in 1999. They forecasted the 2020 volumes were only between 7.000 and 10.000 AADT for the rural sections. Although car ownership and usage in Estonia is increasing, this is at least partially offset by the fact that Estonia has a declining population.


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## Pansori

Is there any map with traffic volumes for Estonia? I think that would answer many questions. Motorways are, of course, cool but like Chris said it's all about the traffic volumes.

The two existing motorways in Lithuania are motorways only because it was a legacy from the USSR days (why they were built back in the USSR days, is a mystique... there was no any economical or any other logical reason for that back then) which was kept simply because it already was there and all that was necessary was to keep it up to the standard which was inherited.

Even if you build a new road identical to the Lithuanian A2 it would not qualify to be a motorway according to the very same standards that are in place in Lithuania today (similar situation to the old German autobahns which are not even close to the contemporary motorway standards present on new autobahns). Another reason the 'motorway' status _is not stripped_ from the Lithuaian motorwaysis because of their ridiculously low traffic volumes which are about 5000 cars a day for most of the time i.e. about as much as in a typical suburban backstreet in London .

So I guess it's more of a relict of 'prestige' which is good for some rankings and surveys (such as 'motorway per capita' where Lithuania stands somewhere just below Germany). There were a few motorway-like 2+2 roads built ever since but noone even thought of giving them a motorway (or even an expressway) status despite some of them clearly being of higher standard than the existing motorways. So if not the A1 and A2 inherited from the USSR Lithuanians could only dream of motorways. Therefore it's hardly surprising that noone is rushing to assign 'motorway' label to new roads in Estonia and Latvia. It is the same reason why we will never have _new_ motorway-labaled roads in Lithuania simply because... there's no need for it. Roads are all about _adequacy_ and to achieve that there is no need for motorways.


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## vatse

Alexriga said:


> vatse your borders of Estonia are very strange :lol:


I just searched for some map with roads 
As the new border treaty with Russia isn't ratified yet by Russia it's still common to show both old and new eastern borders on Estonian maps. As you can see there is also old Latvian eastern border showed on this map


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## ChrisZwolle

Pansori said:


> Is there any map with traffic volumes for Estonia? I think that would answer many questions. Motorways are, of course, cool but like Chris said it's all about the traffic volumes.


http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/2009_aasta_liiklusloenduse_tulemused_9.pdf

You have to use "save link as", as opening it doesn't work (by me).


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## vatse

Pansori said:


> Is there any map with traffic volumes for Estonia? I think that would answer many questions. Motorways are, of course, cool but like Chris said it's all about the traffic volumes.


It's a map of traffic volumes on main Estonian roads from last year - http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/2009_aasta_liiklusloenduse_tulemused_9.pdf

And traffic around some bigger towns - http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/2009_aasta_liiklusloenduse_tulemused_102.pdf


Newly built 2+2 expressways in Estonia are actually enough for the traffic density we have as these are also without level crossings and have a good network of feeder roads and so on. All the current bigger road projects are also co-financed by EU. There is just no need for expressway network across Estonia as we have only little bit more than 1 million people for a country same size like Netherlands or Switzerland.


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## Tin_Can

More important is the population density. With only few large cities,there isn't much to be connected with motorways. Only few roads would need to be motorways,probably most needed one is Tallinn-Tartu route - due to it's dangerous spots & stupid drivers,it would really benefit from being 2+2 lane motorway (or even a expressway) Need for Tallinn-Pärnu and Tallinn-Narva routes to be motorways is minimal,despite being important route connecting EU with Russia.


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## ChrisZwolle

http://www.mnt.ee/atp/?id=3538

You can find an English-language PDF about the Saaremaa fixed link, a planned bridge (or tunnel) from Virtsu to the Saaremaa island (technically Humu island). Quite interesting material. In the long term, a bridge is cheaper than the ferry because the increase of traffic causes government subsidies to rise much faster than the income from ferry tickets. It will most likely be a toll bridge (€ 7).

(somehow these direct PDF links from mnt.ee don't work here).


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## Rebasepoiss

vectom said:


> I just can't, can't, and can't believe to upper post that 40% of estonian roads are unpaved! What the hell with that, in that case, even Albania has better network!


Estonia has the largest mileage of roads per 1000 people in Europe. It is so because of how our villages have developed. Villages are usually very small and houses are placed far apart from each other. This creates a need for a large amount of roads but doesn't create much traffic. There isn't much point in paving a road that runs in the middle of the forest and carries less than 100 cars a day. There are thousands of kilometres of gravel roads in Finland too, that doesn't necessarily mean that the road network is bad.

Here's a population density map of Estonia:
http://www.tempt.ee/uploads/2501_urban_tihedus.jpg


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## ChrisZwolle

Yep. To compare: Estonia has 1.3 million inhabitants and about 60,000 kilometers of road. The Netherlands has 16.5 million inhabitants and 120,000 kilometers of road. Albania on the other hand has only 18,00 kilometers of road.

to sum up;

paved roads:
Estonia 36,000 km
population: 1.3 million
36 people per paved km

Netherlands 110,000 km
population: 16.5 million
150 people per paved km

Albania: 12,000 km
populatioon: 3.2 million
267 people per paved km

DR Congo: 2,500 km
population: 66 million
26400 people per paved km 

Quite a difference.


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## vectom

where did you get these data, any cumulative statistics for European countries? link?

btw, I asked these questions on a previous page without knowing this basic data that Estonia has only a little bit more than a million people! Yes, shame on me 
But thought that Estonia got at least 3-4 
thanks again everyone.


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## Alexriga

Same for Latvia, we have so many paved roads, sometimes you can travel 50km and meet not a single car on a road.


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## Triceratops

Tnx, Chris, for that link with information about Saaremaa bridge. I really dreamed about this at least in plans! :cheers: (even though it doesn't work here as well, it is still a great proof that once there will appear permanent connection between continental Estonia and Saaremaa!)


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## Rebasepoiss

If anyone's interested, there's a thorough 2009 Annual Report by Estonian Road Administration(in English). Again, you have to right click and "save as", otherwise it doesn't work. .
http://www.mnt.ee/atp/?id=42109


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## S.T.A.S.

What baffles me about that Johvi-Kukruse junction is this: they built about 10 new viaducts and bridges in the countryside for the " farmers tractors" basically, yet the Estonian government wont subsidise or at least finance some part of the johvi railway viaduct, which is in the centre of the city...that viaduct can literally fall any day, as they already shortened it from 2 x 2 to 1 x 1 road. Just somethin I thought about.

I've driven on gravel roads all my life and I can assure you that there is nothing wrong with it, you only need time to get used to it...at least on a gravel road the driver is more aware, to avoid any potholes, whereas on the motorway he just sits back and steers the wheel


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## Rebasepoiss

S.T.A.S. said:


> What baffles me about that Johvi-Kukruse junction is this: they built about 10 new viaducts and bridges in the countryside for the " farmers tractors" basically, yet the Estonian government wont subsidise or at least finance some part of the johvi railway viaduct, which is in the centre of the city...that viaduct can literally fall any day, as they already shortened it from 2 x 2 to 1 x 1 road. Just somethin I thought about.


The problem was that Jõhvi city council insisted on building a tunnel there but that would've required too much money. Now that the City Council has decided that they accept also other alternatives other than the tunnel, Estonian Road Administration decided to fund the renovation of the bridge and the Western bypass of Jõhvi with EEK 272 million(€ 17,4 million). Estonian Road Administration wants to re-route heavy trucks to bypass the town by the Western bypass. The City Council, however, doesn't think that a bypass would solve the traffic problems and believes a large interchange in the centre of the town with a new bridge over the railways would be a better solution.


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## Triceratops

^ Must admit that's a very typical situation here in Baltics! Hardly any small city's council would be interested in creating a bypass around its city/town due to the money they wouldn't manage to put in their pockets.. :bash: Also, for them bypasses are not a priority as the flow as they think would never rise and it's all pointless.. Just really old-thinking..


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## jkk

Aerial of the Mäo bypass


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Google Earth:


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## RipleyLV

Layout of the Mäo bypass:
http://kaart.otsing.delfi.ee/index.php?id=1&bbox=592249.271488841,6531649.955743,594352.787113841,6533044.486993&type=2&layers=1028,1038&satDate=2010.5.22


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I wonder if that southern interchange is really necessary. It serves no traffic, only some forest roads that could also use the northern interchange.


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## RipleyLV

^ The road from that junction also goes to Mäo.

Kukruse-Jõhvi section construction on Tallinn-Narva highway is visible in these maps:
http://kaart.otsing.delfi.ee/index.php?id=1&bbox=687637.798717078,6587378.47073581,691844.829967078,6590167.53323581&type=1&layers=1028,1038&satDate=2010.5.22


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## ChrisZwolle

RipleyLV said:


> ^ The road from that junction also goes to Mäo.


Which has.... 10 inhabitants? :lol:


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## RipleyLV

Well for some important reason they are building this junction. :lol:


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## Triceratops

^ Indeed, they'd better hurried up with Parnu bypass instead of this, rather economically unnecessary one!


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## Rebasepoiss

Triceratops said:


> ^ Indeed, they'd better hurried up with Parnu bypass instead of this, rather economically unnecessary one!


Mäo bypass gets rid of the previously at-grade junction between Route 2 and Route 5 which is really necessary, IMO. I agree that this small forest-junction is a bit over the top, though.

A couple of pics from the construction: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/577078 

Pärnu bypass is a bit behind schedule because they had to change the project of the new bridge to prevent future land slides. Otherwise everything is going alright with that construction.


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## Hasper

Some new photos from the Kukruse - Johvi section of E20.
Pedestrian bridge construction near Johvi:


Tammiku viaduct construction:


Some visualizations of the stretch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ-A7IuTpxI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTpyEB_PyGE

Visualization of the Vao - Maardu (E20) stretch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyX0Zi11LmA




> A map of 2+2 highways in Estonia.


 There is also a small (~3,5km) 2+2 section on Parnu - Lihula highway near Parnu.


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## Tin_Can

Hasper said:


>


Wow,that's something peculiar :uh: I haven't seen anything similar before,not in Estonia,not anywhere else. It's awesome! (and friggin expensive) :happy:

Nice update,btw!


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## bleetz

LOL, what the hell is that thing?!


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## ChrisZwolle

Looks like a ramp for pedestrians to an overpass. Also useful for cyclists.


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## Pansori

I think it's not as much for cyclists as the need to comply to some regulations related to disabled access. Of course, it's helpful to everyone else using some kind of wheels (bicycles, baby pushchairs or even heavy luggage).


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## Triceratops

Interesting invention of Estonians!  But wouldn't that be too much of a length for those who want cross the highway?! Couldn't they make it a bit longer and an incline less?


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## RipleyLV

Triceratops said:


> But wouldn't that be too much of a length for those who want cross the highway?! Couldn't they make it a bit longer and an incline less?


I think they will build shorter stairs for pedestrians on the other side.


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## Rebasepoiss

I wonder why they didn't build more conventional ramps. Like here, for example:


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## Tin_Can

^
Perhaps they weren't able to make a deal with land owners? Those concrete ramps take lot less space,than conventional dirt ramps with asphalt road,plus those concrete ramps are placed in same line as highway.

Nonetheless,it's odd to see such ramps built in rural area. I would expect such things built in dense urban environment,where's not much room for commonly used solutions ...and then there's the price - I hate to think how much such concrete ramps cost


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## Rebasepoiss

I'll quote from Tallinn development thread:


Tin_Can said:


> Tehnika street - Filtri road extension is completed and should be opened for traffic in next few days.
> 
> I took few photos of it this morning:
> View from Veerenni junction.
> 
> 
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> 
> About half way to Filtri road,there's room for side road (check out development project on the last page)
> 
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> 
> Looking back,towards Veerenni street.
> 
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> Closer to Military Cemetary.
> 
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> 
> Nameless bus stop. This won't be used for few years (TAK plans to direct some bus lines there once Ülemiste junction is finished)
> 
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> 
> Sry for photo distortion (street lights are tilted because of photo stitching,not because of poor work quality )


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## Triceratops

Wow! Nice road! And the fact that it's a 2x2 on some stretches just impresses! :cheers:


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## Tin_Can

Tin_Can said:


> same plan on small scale (orange - planned new Pärnu bypass):


Few very rough renders of Pärnu bypass:


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## Triceratops

Looks as if that would be inner highway of Pärnu, but as long as it will be that wide and convenient, it should completely satisfy the needs of all the transit drivers.


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## Tin_Can

^^
Most of the road runs through area of warehouses,wastelands & low intensity residential houses,so it's not that inner highway for Pärnu. 

Afaik,biggest benefits of this road isn't widening but rebuilding several interchanges. Some of the original interchanges were badly designed or outdated. Now,if we could only find someone willing to take few photos of the construction...


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## RipleyLV

Has the construction already started?


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## Tin_Can

It's been U/C on for some time now. Latest information I know is that project was few weeks behind schedule in early May because of harsh winter & thaw. It should be finished by the end of this year,if there aren't any more problems.

Sry,that's all I know,press has been bit silent about this project (we need to recruit some forumers from Pärnu here for more info )


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## Triceratops

Oh, so it's u/c already, just great! Are they building the road itself from the ground or some parts of it were also built some time ago, as the interchanges?


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## Rebasepoiss

I am staying near Pärnu for a couple of days but without a car but if I have the chance and time, I will try to take some photos of the U/C section.


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## kanterberg

Grisent said:


> Here's a picture series covering road number 11 -- Tallinn bypass.



Nice pictures! I especially liked them because I drove there a few months ago! 

I noticed that the exit-panel looked like it was up-side-down compared to what I'm used to. It's interesting that these exit panels (or whatever the offical term is) are so different all over Europe. I guess that's what happens when a sign is not covered in the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals... :dunno:

 
(don't know why they turned up black and blue and not white and blue)


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## Grisent

Kanterberg - good observation!

Actually, there are both types. Downward-pointing signs are blue-and-white; and if I remember correctly, this was originally the only option specified in traffic code. I guess the arrows are kind of trying to say "HERE is the divergence point" 

Later revisions of the traffic code also added an upwards-pointing sign; this must be red-and-white. 

Both types are seen on roads.


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## Grisent

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice pictures, but why are the roads so deserted?


It's early morning in the weekend


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## Grisent

And the final part of Tallinn bypass series. We are at the point where Tallinn bypass briefly merges with Tallinn-Rapla road.


















And having passed through the intersection, again a quick look back. Cool, there's another funny-arrow direction sign.










Boring forest again. Those brown signs with names on them mark historic parishes. As we say, _Tunne oma kodumaad!_  ("Get to know your homeland")










Overpass and intersection with Tallinn-Saku road (11340). If you excuse me for a moment, I'll turn off the main route, since I know there is an funny sign on Saku road....










Aha, here it is. I wonder why the two sides are so different in size? Also, 1 / E20 is mislabelled as 1 / E67.










Back on road 11. Approaching interchange with 4 / E67. This is the famous full cloverleaf interchange, the only one we have.


























On the other side. As you see, E265 designation has now appeared.


















And behold - as Rebasepoiss mentioned previously, distance to Kapellskär! 










Keila church appears ahead.










WHOA! There's a traffic island, on a highway, in the middle of my lane! What genius came up with that?!










We have arrived Keila, route 11 ends here. The road continues to Paldiski signposted with number 8.


















And a view of Estonian countryside to conclude our tour.


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## albeva

I believe there are plans to reconstruct entire section as 2+2 with grade separated junctions


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## Grisent

Indeed. And I see that construction of some junctions is supposed to begin in 2011 -- that would be great. (Road Administration has loads of materials: http://www.mnt.ee/atp/?id=2669 ) One thing though: speed limit is going to be 90 km/h


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## Grisent

kanterberg said:


> It's interesting that these exit panels (or whatever the offical term is) are so different all over Europe. I guess that's what happens when a sign is not covered in the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals... :dunno:


And that's if an exit marker resembles a "panel" at all. Exhibit 1: The, ahem... plastic buckets on French autoroutes 



[email protected] said:


> The A51 near Grenoble:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.unautrevoyage.fr/


----------



## Triceratops

Cool pics, good explanation, thanks!  Nice to see that all this road is reconstructed and has quite soft pavement!
But are there any real plans to make a brand new at least 2x2 Tallinn bypass highway?


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## ChrisZwolle

What does that Russian sign says, something like "National radio"? (Narodnoye Radio)


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## Triceratops

^ Correct. But I'm impressed that it is a completely Russian-written billborad and that nothing is even duplicated in Estonian.. Don't you have a law there for the national language priorities etc.?


----------



## Tin_Can

^^
Khm...language laws are rather relaxed in Lasnamäe suburb (you should ask from our damn mayor why it is so  after all,he started it with his Russian language political billboards)



@Grisent - nice tour,but why didn't you take any photos from highway overpass down towards Pärnu highway? (really good view)


----------



## Grisent

Triceratops said:


> ^ Correct. But I'm impressed that it is a completely Russian-written billborad and that nothing is even duplicated in Estonian.. Don't you have a law there for the national language priorities etc.?


True. Law says billboards must be in Estonian; and may include a translation into foreign language, but only if Estonian is displayed first and at least as prominently.

So this is clearly a violation. But I am pretty sure fellow citizens have already reported it to Language Inspectorate; much smaller issues than that get noticed. (Their webpage and document registry is not very well searchable)

Also, it would be quite reasonable to believe that language inspectorate has already issued a precept; in that case, the radio station is either ignoring it, or paid the fine and left the billboard hanging 



> "National radio"? (Narodnoye Radio)


Well... roughly, yes, but the meaning is slightly more like "People's Radio". 

"National Radio" would be quite an outrage


----------



## Grisent

Triceratops said:


> But are there any real plans to make a brand new at least 2x2 Tallinn bypass highway?


In a nutshell -- yes; and Road Administration is cheerfully proclaiming that works will start already in 2011. It will be a 2x2 road, but will use current road corridor. 

(And as I already mentioned, it is decided to keep speed limit at 90 km/h - due to frequent junctions and expected volume of commuter traffic. And the road will be built to 90 km/h...100 km/h standards, to keep costs reasonable. I guess it mostly concerns things like curve radius, longitudinal relief and visibility.)

Project scope is definitely staggering: twenty-two grade-separated junctions!! If fully implemented, it will surely take more than a decade. Costs are estimated at 6.2bn EEK (400m EUR), but for such a long timeline, feel free to factor in a significant increase.

First 2 objects to be constructed are grade-separated junctions with road 15 (Tallinn-Rapla) and road 11115 (Raudalu-Kiili).

Here's a "before & after" visualisation for 11 / 15 junction.

Before:









After:









Note that road 15 would be getting a completely new alignment. These guys are definitely not thinking small  

(Source: project draft, http://www.mnt.ee/atp/doc.php?5288)

And intersection with road 11115...









will be replaced with this:









(Source: feasibility study commissioned by Road Administration, http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/Teostatavusuuring__l_ik_2.pdf)


----------



## Triceratops

Oh yeah! Now that looks lovely! Great thing your road administration is not standing aside to help solving the traffic problems. This new road should definitely move at least a part of transit flow from Tallinn and would help implement new projects for the future motorways that would run from Tallinn in Southern and Northern directions. :cheers:


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Looks like we've finally found ourselves a highway photographer  Thanks for the photos, Grisent!


----------



## Grisent

Any particular requests for photos? 

Not that I could promise to fulfill them -- but who knows.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Construction updates are always welcome, for example. If you happen to drive by some construction works and manage to take photos, post them here .


----------



## makaveli6

Here are some pictures of the Old Riga Highway. 
Map: http://tinyurl.com/3585k3e
I cant comment anything much on the pictures though.
1. Ikla








2.








3.








4.








5.








6.








7. Kabli








8. Jaagupi








9. Viira








10. Two roads, both leading to Haademeeste, i figured that the road on left works like a bypass for it.









End


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## makaveli6

Now heading back to Riga from Parnu. 
4/E67 
1. Parnu








2.








3.Riga: 175km
Ikla: 57km
Haademeeste: 22km
Uulu: 9km








4.








5.








6.








7.








8.








9. EE/LV border








10.









btw Are the buildings at border still used fro something?


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## Triceratops

^ I doubt it.. Rather to remind that once this used to a national border, but now it's all part of one huge union!  Though, it was used when there happened NATO assembly meeting in Riga this year so that to check the cars, not even passports.


----------



## Wover

Old and new signage


----------



## Grisent

Excellent photo.

(I can't help but point out that the sign in the background -- and several others around this intersection, as I coincidentally noticed just this week -- are set in Helvetica typeface. Haven't seen that anywhere else.)










Not that it really matters, or that anybody should make the difference  but it somehow caught my eye.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ As Wover already mentioned, signage inside Tallinn is pretty messy. For example, why do they sign the city centre at that intersection? It pretty much is the centre already and besides, Rävala Avenue is practically a dead end. I would sign Viru square as the centre point of Tallinn instead. 
Furthermore, why isn't the bus station on the sign(the bus station is situated on the right). Don't they think it's important enough? The harbour, airport, railway station and bus station should be signed on every major intersection in the city, IMO.
Then there are the language issues. At one intersection it's centre, at the other it's center and in some places it's only signed in Estonian(Kesklinn).

And to continue on the language issues: why are the tourist signs on highways in Estonian only? I know there aren't that many foreign tourists in Estonia, especially outside Tallinn but the tourist signs should encourage tourism not discourage it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Signage within city limits is almost always a problem, especially outside the main roads. I know many cities in the Netherlands barely sign destinations on city roads outside the major roads. You just have to know the way, otherwise you're getting nowhere.


----------



## Hasper

Kukruse - Johvi (E20) update:





+ more pictures here:
http://pilt.delfi.ee/en/album/185299/
Will be opened on August 31st. Only few more days to go till they remove the 50km/h speed limit. One more bottleneck down :carrot:


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Looking great!  Mäo bypass will also be finished in about a month. Combined with Kukruse-Jõhvi section, that's 14km of brand new 2x2 highway.


----------



## Grisent

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ As Wover already mentioned, signage inside Tallinn is pretty messy. For example, why do they sign the city centre at that intersection? It pretty much is the centre already and besides, Rävala Avenue is practically a dead end. I would sign Viru square as the centre point of Tallinn instead.


Based on what I've seen in European towns - at this close to town centre, direction signs should start pointing to car parks. This is the first thing that a freshly-arrived tourist is looking for: where to stop and park the car. Roadside parking spots are becoming really rare (and I pity the tourist who needs to figure out how to pay for parking on the street.) 

Car park entrances are already marked, of course. But my point is that they should be signposted in advance, too. (Possibly with a LED display showing the number of vacant places.)

In the good old '60s it was possible to proudly drive one's _"Pobeda"_ straight to Town Hall Square and park it there  but those times are not coming back...



Rebasepoiss said:


> Then there are the language issues. At one intersection it's centre, at the other it's center and in some places it's only signed in Estonian(Kesklinn).


I believe the newest practice now is "KESKLINN, C". Not the most elegant solution, perhaps, and it may seem too subtle at first, but it'll get the job done, too: if only the signage would be uniform.

In general, I think that signposting city streets is a difficult task -- and I believe that a sufficiently large town with excellent signage would be a truly rare exception. 

Only a strict, consistent and very detailed specification (what are the recommended transit routes, what local and remote destinations are signed and on what conditions) would set things straight. But it would have to be in effect, unchanged, for 20 years in a row - since signs are anyway installed or replaced street-by-street.

While Tallinn may have messy signage (and I could also point out several messed-up route recommendations and conflicting instructions), I'd say it has _almost enough signage_.


----------



## Triceratops

Nice pics, the road seem of the highest standard it can be!  I believe it would it be kind of expressway with 14 kms of 2x2!


----------



## Grisent

Having had to drive around a bit, I now have material for a couple of posts, but those will probably come next week.

First, I think you might be interested in seeing pictures of soon-to-be-opened Mäo bypass.

The new interchange system is quite extensive and a lot has been changed and rebuilt, so I drove around for a while. The following pictures cover 3 different paths:
1) New 2+2 Tallinn-Tartu road towards Tartu;
2) Back along the old road through Mäo;
3) New 2+2 Pärnu-Rakvere road towards Rakvere.










General state of progress: noise barrier walls have been completed, all pavement seems to be laid, most crash barriers are installed, a few signs are already up, road is being prepared for markings. Aside from that, some landscape work remains to be done.

Coming from Tallinn, heading south:


















Both carriageways are now open for traffic.










Noise barriers are a mix of earthwork, wooden wall and limestone wall. Limestone is a reference to the nearby town of Paide (old _Wittenstein/Weissenstein_), with its medieval castle and a restored limestone castle tower.










Approach to interchange between roads 2 & 5










Sliproad is not open yet. Curiously, this junction will only allow to turn right, for Pärnu and Paide; no good access to the left towards Rakvere. 

I think this is because traffic towards Rakvere can make a left turn a few kms earlier, using a connecting road.


















Joining sliproad.










Slope between main road and sliproad is very steep -- it almost has a feeling of an urban motorway where every square metre is precious. Acceleration lane looks really short, too.










By the way, in the opposite direction, signs are already installed.

Ahead towards Tartu.










Second junction: bypass ends here, new road alignment meets old one again and motorists coming from Tartu can exit for Mäo.










PART II - OLD ROAD THROUGH MÄO

Turning right, I am now on the old Tallinn-Tartu road, heading back towards the direction of Tallinn, via Mäo centre. 

Mäo-Paide connecting road (15130), indicated on this old sign, is closed and will be demolished.










Those of you who have driven this road should remember that view...










One more chance to stop and eat, and around the corner, to the right, full speed ahead towards Tallinn! (Or so it was.)


















And here, everything is now totally different... an intersection has popped up and we have a viaduct over road 5.










What used to be part of E263, a mighty 288-kilometre road, is now just a tiny stub connecting two closest villages.


















On top of the viaduct. Below lies road 5, Pärnu-Rakvere. View towards Rakvere (north-east).










Zoomed in.










View towards Paide (south-west).










And along the old road again. This should still be recognizable as the old at-grade intersection between roads 2 & 5. Oh, and the old stork nest is still there! You do remember that, right? 


















As the road used to go towards Tallinn.










It does not simply rejoin 2 / E263, though; at one point the road makes a sharp left turn...










and arrives at a local intersection.

Both ways to road (15)159? But I thought I already was driving along it, as a sign previously indicated? Either 15159 is now a weird three-branch contrivance, or the piece of former 2 / E263 has been degraded to unclassified status -- a mere access road for 15159?

(Never mind, I'm over-analysing that.)










One more underpass on 2 / E263,










and one more branch road.










I bet not everybody has seen that traffic sign yet.










PART III - ROAD 5 (PÄRNU-RAKVERE) TOWARDS RAKVERE










Crash barrier not fully completed yet.


















A junction, and the viaduct on old E263, now Mäo-Tarbja road.


















Road 2 / road 5 interchange looks really unspectacular from here, since we're on an overpass. 










Hmm, exit for Tallinn does not get an advance sign?










A misaimed side-shot. The southbound carriageway on 2 / E263, as seen from the overpass.










2+2 happiness ends very quickly, as soon as we're through the junction. But for a traffic volume of 1950 AADT (as it is from this point on), this is quite expected.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Great report  Appreciated.


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## RipleyLV

Well done. kay:


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## Rebasepoiss

I like that you are so thorough when photographing highways. I look forward to seeing more


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## Triceratops

Cool progress and amazing explanations! Thanks, Grisent! Waiting for more.


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## Uppsala

Grisent said:


> Slope between main road and sliproad is very steep -- it almost has a feeling of an urban motorway where every square metre is precious. Acceleration lane looks really short, too.


It looks very similar to motorways in Sweden. A lot of roads in Estonia looks very Swedish. 



Grisent said:


> I bet not everybody has seen that traffic sign yet.


What is this warning sign means? I have never seen this before.


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## ChrisZwolle

End of paved road? Never saw these before either.


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## Hasper

> Sliproad is not open yet. Curiously, this junction will only allow to turn right, for Pärnu and Paide; no good access to the left towards Rakvere.


 Are you sure? Plans show, that left turns should be allowed. You can even see a break in the median for this on the image:


>





> End of paved road? Never saw these before either.


Yep.


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## Grisent

Hasper said:


> Are you sure? Plans show, that left turns should be allowed. You can even see a break in the median for this on the image:


I checked project documentation -- indeed, you are right. 

But the same break in the median will be used by those coming over viaduct and turning left towards Tartu. If so, it will be a very collision-prone intersection, which makes me wonder why they bothered with a 2+2 road at all.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ AFAIK, there are 4 different left turns required to take all the routes at this T2/T5 interchange. That's pretty disappointing, actually.


----------



## Grisent

For today, a bit of illustrated history. 

Past decade 2000-2010 brought a remarkable wave of improvements onto Estonian trunk roads. Most large reconstruction works were, of course, funded by EU support. Two important Estonian highway routes -- road 2 (_Tallinn-Tartu-Võru-Luhamaa_) and road 3 (_Jõhvi-Tartu-Valga_) -- were thoroughly renovated, almost in full length.

Both roads were also added into European E-road network. Road 2 was assigned route identifier *E263* and road 3 is now part of *E264*. (Route E264 additionally extends to Latvia, the full route for that is _Jõhvi-Tartu-Valmiera-Inčukalns_.)

By the way, an aside question -- is E264 signposted in Latvia, too? It is supposed to follow A3, I guess.

Renovation works on road 2 were mostly completed between 2000-2004. E263 designation, though, was assigned a bit later -- in January 2006. For road 3, the timeline was similar. Most of the reconstructions took place in 2006, but European route E264 was not announced until January 2008. 

You probably realize that renovation works also involved replacing direction signs with new ones. It appears that Road Administration had already performed all necessary steps in due time to get new E-road designations, and these designations were about to be granted.

Therefore, new direction signs for reconstructed roads (and adjacent roads, too) were designed and installed with... blank green E-shields:









(Picture taken in summer 2007.)

When UNECE announced its resolutions in the beginning of 2006 and 2008 respectively, empty spaces were filled and numbers "263" and "264" pasted onto all direction signs.

Even now, motorists can see at night that numbers "263" and "264" are slightly shinier than the rest of the text on these signs.


Now, if you ask my opinion, I find E264 a somewhat justified E-route; it crosses borders and it connects Tartu to Rīga, one regional and one national centre. 

E263 however seems quite pointless. It exactly duplicates a national route (road 2), so an additional designation provides zero bits of extra information for motorists. Rather, it contributes towards number overload on urban signage in Tallinn and Tartu. (*1 E20 2 E263 4 E67 8 (E265)* - quick, you have five seconds to make a choice and switch lanes!)

But perhaps E-road designations (first as a pending application, later officially) simply made it easier to apply for EU funding...


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## Rebasepoiss

Today the most expensive highway construction project(Kukruse - Jõhvi section on E20) in Estonia was officially opened.

























Unfortunately these are the only photos I could find...But I did find 2 videos of the E20 Väo-Maardu reconstruction which is ongoing now:
(OK, to be frank, these videos are from stage II of this reconstruction project which will start in 2011)


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## albeva

nice


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## Triceratops

And SUCH terrific highway wouldn't still get a motorway status?! Looks just really impressive, what to say..! :cheers:


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## ssh

Why do they insist on using such tiny overhead signs...? :/


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## PhirgataZFs1694

Rebasepoiss said:


> Today the most expensive highway construction project(Kukruse - Jõhvi section on E20) in Estonia was officially opened.


A very good project. Well done. Could you possibly tell me what is the average price per km, please?


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## Uppsala

Rebasepoiss said:


>


Why do you still use shields for the junctions which are up-side-down?

I think everywere in other countries they are turned on the other way like the picture down


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## Grisent

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> A very good project. Well done. Could you possibly tell me what is the average price per km, please?


Well, the stretch is 7,2 km and total costs were 628m EEK (40m EUR), so it works out to about 87m EEK (5,5m EUR) per km. Of course, the price always depends on how many junctions and how many additional local roads need to be built.


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## S.T.A.S.

^^ Thats a good road rite there...how mich will the vao-maardu stretch cost? I bet it will be double kukruse-johvi, cause its like 4 x 4, more or less.


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## PhirgataZFs1694

Grisent said:


> Well, the stretch is 7,2 km and total costs were 628m EEK (40m EUR), so it works out to about 87m EEK (5,5m EUR) per km. Of course, the price always depends on how many junctions and how many additional local roads need to be built.


Of course. Thank you very much.:cheers: Maybe expropriation costs were also high?


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## albeva

the cost here was considerably larger because of the old mine tunnels below the ground. Whole area is dug up beneath.


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## Grisent

Triceratops said:


> And SUCH terrific highway wouldn't still get a motorway status?! Looks just really impressive, what to say..! :cheers:


:cheers: and thanks!

Here's what I think... Estonian population density is at a point where:

* Inter-city traffic levels are still rather low. A handful of trunk roads get 5000...8000 AADT, others significantly less. Therefore, (in terms of raw throughput!), current road network outside towns will be perfectly adequate for the next 10 or so years.

* Towns are undergoing a significant urban sprawl. That means rapidly expanding suburban settlements, much more commuter traffic, more business and industrial areas and shopping malls in the suburban areas. Current road network does not separate different types of traffic (pedestrians, public transport, local traffic, intercity traffic) enough and it lacks safety.

Therefore, most reconstruction projects that are currently underway or will be started in the next few years, are focused not so much on moving long-distance traffic faster, but to eliminate dangerous hotspots and organise commuter traffic better. 

Consequently, new roads will have a dense junction structure and rather limited speeds (110 if we're lucky, but 90 is more likely). I am willing to bet a full tank of gas on no motorways in Estonia before 2020


----------



## Grisent

Uppsala said:


> Why do you still use shields for the junctions which are up-side-down?
> 
> I think everywere in other countries they are turned on the other way like the picture down.


Hm, I must have missed the memo about upwards-pointing fork shields having become compulsory, worldwide. :wink2:

As I mentioned sometime earlier, both designs are provided in the traffic code. (Blue downwards-pointing one was the older one). But you are right -- it's a bit weird that all these years have passed and there is still no clear preference or recommendation and new roads happily feature both designs.


----------



## Grisent

S.T.A.S. said:


> ^^ Thats a good road rite there...how mich will the vao-maardu stretch cost? I bet it will be double kukruse-johvi, cause its like 4 x 4, more or less.


4x4?! Ouch.... Interstate 95 would be a cowpath compared to that :nuts:

Actually, Väo-Maardu will be only half as much, 380m EEK, but that does not include Väo interchange, which is still in planning stage.


----------



## Uppsala

Grisent said:


> Hm, I must have missed the memo about upwards-pointing fork shields having become compulsory, worldwide. :wink2:
> 
> As I mentioned sometime earlier, both designs are provided in the traffic code. (Blue downwards-pointing one was the older one). But you are right -- it's a bit weird that all these years have passed and there is still no clear preference or recommendation and new roads happily feature both designs.


But look at the picture down here. That road is very new. But it still have the shield for the junction up-side-down. Why didn't they use a new one which are not up-side-down? I think this is strange. For many years ago they were up-side-down in Sweden too, but all of them are changed since at least 25-30 years ago.



Rebasepoiss said:


>


----------



## Grisent

A series of pictures of 2 / E263, from Tallinn to Mäo. First part of the post covers the journey from Tallinn to Jüri.

Starting from town centre.










Tartu maantee was renovated and widened a few years ago. It used to be 1+1, with trams in the middle of the road and an awful pavement, being quite a disgrace for the main artery between airport and town centre. 

Much better now. :cheers:

Upon completion, the public commented that these posts and chains separating road and sidewalk feel like St. Petersburg.


















Approaching Ülemiste. Being the largest traffic interchange in Tallinn, it connects a number of important roads (T2, T1, and Järvevana tee, which is basically a southern bypass for central Tallinn), provides access to a large industrial district, features a gigantic shopping mall and has Tallinn-Narva mainline railway running through it.  

Space is quite limited, but at least there are plans to grade-separate the east-west route from _Peterburi tee_ to _Järvevana tee_, by building a viaduct over 2 / E263 and the railway. Together with a ton of local and access roads and possibly a tunnel connection to Laagna tee (another eastern artery), it will be the biggest and most expensive road project in Tallinn. 

There should be a video animation of the project somewhere earlier this thread.


































Airport on the left. IMHO, signage is much too small and seriously lacking (there should be at least an advance sign)


















Mõigu area is a quite problematic bottleneck on the 2 / E263. The road runs through a residential area, slowing traffic down and being very dangerous.

Bypassing the settlement is out of the question (T2 is squeezed between Lake Ülemiste and the airport), so the road needs to be widened. Roadside land can be bought or expropriated, but there still won't be enough space to build local roads and a decent junction. Planners are considering either a long flyover or a tunnel. 

Perhaps they should try stacking carriageways on top of one another, Japanese-style 










Border of Tallinn. 

Erected by Tallinn town administration and the whole setup slightly reminding a graveyard gate :bash:, it was mocked a lot for the message on the LED display. _Head teed!_ (Bon voyage!) can be simultaneously interpreted as "Good roads!". Which is a most appropriate statement, considering the very shabby street pavement in Tallinn, compared to national roads.










2+2 section starts again. Speed limit is 110 km/h


















Between Tallinn border and Aruvalla (where 2+2 ends, after about 22 km), there are 5 junctions on T2 (Assaku, Jüri, Patika, Vaida and Aruvalla), although these are officially neither named nor numbered. 


















Assaku village got a noise barrier this year.


















T2 / T11 interchange approaching. (Pavement is being renewed). The interchange is a giant roundabout (with a flyover for T2), but it might be upgraded to a cloverleaf if T11 gets widened to 2+2. 










Surprisingly and inexplicably, the roundabout is not round, but egg-shaped. So watch out when cruising around there -- at one point you need to brake hard.


----------



## Hasper

Thanks, Grisent! Keep up the good work!



> When UNECE announced its resolutions in the beginning of 2006 and 2008 respectively, empty spaces were filled and numbers "263" and "264" pasted onto all direction signs.


 There are still some blank ones left. I remember seeing one in the port of Muuga a week ago. But I haven't paid attention, which road number it should have been.



> Roadside land can be bought or expropriated, but there still won't be enough space to build local roads and a decent junction. Planners are considering either a long flyover or a tunnel.
> 
> Perhaps they should try stacking carriageways on top of one another, Japanese-style


 If I remember correctly, it is going to be widened to a simple 2+2 road by the Tallinn town administration in the next few years. Tunnels or flyovers won't happen at all - too expensive. The solution purposed by the Estonian road administration http://moigu.teedeprojekt.ee/get_file.php?document_id=24, most likely won't be build till 2020, or even 2030.


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## maanus_j

Some pictures from E20 / Tallinn-Narva (and construction works on this road) from Tallinn to Lahemaa (the national park some 50 km east of Tallinn) and back.

Getting out of Tallinn: Laagna Road, also known as the Channel, in Lasnamäe. 4 lanes at this place.









The road narrows gradually down: 2 lanes now, plus there are 2 uncomfortable pedestrian crossings in this last section of the road, which limit speed to 50 km/h.









On E20 now, Pirita River is also the border of Tallinn, construction works of the Loo-Maardu section start after the river. The new road will have 4 lanes in both directions at this place (you can see how wide the new road will be). 









Overpass of the railway line to Muuga port. Temporarily only 1 lane in this direction.









Cutting of the tunnel (on the left side of the image) which will go under the road and the railway overpass. Lots of solid limestone has to be dug out.









Towards Maardu: only 2 lanes now. The new highway on the right has already first layers of asphalt.
I guess that due to the construction works and constantly heavy traffic this Loo-Maardu section has a lot of accidents: a month or so ago I saw somewhere around the point where the photo is taken a pile-up of 8 or 9 vehicles (damage to all vehicles was really minor, but still, accidents with that many vehicles are uncommon in Estonia).









The new overpass to Maardu and Muuga

















Past Maardu: seems the new highway will be more or less completely flat. There is a small hollow here, which will be all made level.









Last junction of Loo-Maardu: the sign indicates the direction to Tallinn landfill. 

















Beginning of the expressway. Not much interesting here - E20 east of Tallinn with 2+2 lanes is a rather dull highway in my opinion. You just set your cruise control to 110+ and then... just drive.









First junction at Jägala: some smaller highways going north to the coast, secondary road 13 going inland









323 km to St. Petersburg









Turning off from E20 at Kuusalu (40 km from Tallinn)









Traffic density on these smaller roads is rather low, so the junctions have usually very simple configuration: traffic that turned off from the expressway has to give way. Kuusalu and Kiiu (previous junction before Kuusalu) junctions also have a roundabout on the northern side of the expressway (next image).

















Driving on a smaller road now: the old Tallinn-Narva highway past Kuusalu, bordered with some suburban development (the farther houses fell a victim to the economic crisis and are still incomplete).









Now in Lahemaa, driving on an even smaller road (but a lot more interesting to drive than the 2+2 lane expressway!). It's still a road managed by the national road administration (tertiary highway, the lowest level of highways), though it has an AADT of 75 and there's only 1 house by its side (and that house is also 200 m from the end of the road).









Another tertiary road, which was recently paved - thanks to construction works on E20 again (reconstruction of Liiapeksi-Viitna section). The road is covered with old asphalt and then paved with a layer of bitumen and gravel (Bituminous Surface Treatment - I guess that's what this kind of paving is called in English). Still lots of loose gravel, that's why there's the speed limit.
Speaking of national highways (highways managed by the Estonian Road Administration), there are rather few gravel roads left in Northern Estonia. This map shows paved (black) and unpaved (yellow) roads around Lahemaa - of these 7 unpaved roads (or sections of roads) 4 or 5 (don't know exactly) were paved this year.









Now going back towards Tallinn: secondary road 85 (to Loksa, a small coastal town) joining E20.









Reconstruction starts here (that is, coming from Tallinn) and extends some 20 km towards Narva.









Junction at Kahala (next after Kuusalu coming from Tallinn): same simple configuration.

















Yay, 412 km to Stockholm! A rather stupid idea in my opinion. Couldn't they at least include some sign of a ferry or something?









Near Jägala. The road has a wide strip of mowed land on both sides - animals crossing the road must be visible from afar.









Jõelähtme. No wide shoulder anymore, bad for cyclists. Also, because of a bridge over a small river, this merge lane is really very short - somewhat dangerous considering the speed limit is 110 km/h. 









Loo-Maardu again.









Overpass to Maardu/Muuga from this side. They also have to build a tunnel for a railway branch (the concrete wall on the right side of second image).

























The railway overpass at Loo from this direction









The other end of the tunnel under the road and railway overpass will be around here. There was some large steel structure there, maybe for carrying the district heating pipes over the road (The chimney at the background belongs to Iru power plant, which provides district heating to eastern parts of Tallinn).









At the Pirita River again: cyclists and pedestrians will get their own bridge over the river, a reconstructed old railway bridge (at the back, behind the pipes).


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Nice report and welcome!


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## Xmaster

Good report. Just a one question: the stretch with 110 km/h speed limit is signed as expressway, or it's just normal 2x2 highway with speed limit set to 110 ?


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## Trilesy

What's the point of the "Stockholm" destination sign? I didn't know cars can drive on water?! Come on, we're not on a ferry yet. (Technically you can drive through Russia, Finland, Sweden, but it would take much longer than just 412 km).

Or is it supposed to mean that Western Europe is not that far away? Stupid idea, I agree. :bash:


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## ChrisZwolle

It's not that uncommon to have destinations signed via ferry. Somehow I always wanted London was signed on French A26


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## ChrisZwolle

xkala1x said:


> Rebuilding Tartu-Elva project is frozen for next 10-20 years.Consultant/expert company said that there not enough traffic....hno:


6.700 - 8.400 vehicles per day. That's indeed a bit low for a full-blown motorway... though 2x2 at-grade wouldn't be the worst idea. Still, I think strategically important roads could be motorways, even at low traffic volumes. Route 3 is not that important, but route 1,2 and 4 are.


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## Hasper

A bit updated map (based upon the road construction funding plan for 2010-2013):


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## maanus_j

A few more drive-by shots from Loo-Maardu section, taken today.

The metal structure near Iru railway overpass from my previous report is indeed used for carrying heating pipes, so will it stay there permanently to carry the pipes over the underpass? I think yes.









Digging the underpass.









Most of the eastbound lane between Loo and Maardu temporary roundabouts has already a thick layer of asphalt. Project documentation shows that the eastbound lane should be ready in November (of course junctions take longer to build).









Parts of a new light traffic bridge which will be built over the stream flowing out of Lake Maardu.


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## Grisent

Motorways in Estonia is a topic that seems to shortly re-emerge here every once in a while. There isn't much to say about them, other that there simply aren't any  and I haven't heard Road Administration use that term not even once. 

But I'd leave that aside for a moment and fantasize a bit. What do you think, what would most likely be the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status? 

And why have motorways been an avoided option, at all; what are the reasons contributing to that? 

I would love to hear your opinions on this topic.


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## Uppsala

Grisent said:


> Motorways in Estonia is a topic that seems to shortly re-emerge here every once in a while. There isn't much to say about them, other that there simply aren't any  and I haven't heard Road Administration use that term not even once.
> 
> But I'd leave that aside for a moment and fantasize a bit. What do you think, what would most likely be the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status?
> 
> And why have motorways been an avoided option, at all; what are the reasons contributing to that?
> 
> I would love to hear your opinions on this topic.


I think the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status must be E20 from Tallinn.


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## Rebasepoiss

Grisent said:


> Motorways in Estonia is a topic that seems to shortly re-emerge here every once in a while. There isn't much to say about them, other that there simply aren't any  and I haven't heard Road Administration use that term not even once.
> 
> But I'd leave that aside for a moment and fantasize a bit. What do you think, what would most likely be the first stretch of road in Estonia to get motorway status?
> 
> And why have motorways been an avoided option, at all; what are the reasons contributing to that?
> 
> I would love to hear your opinions on this topic.


The road administration hasn't said anything about it BUT if you look at the traffic sign schemes of the future Kose-Mäo road, motorway signs are shown: http://freewheel.autodesk.com/dwf_S....ramboll.ee/dmdocuments/2007-050_100R0800.dwf
http://freewheel.autodesk.com/dwf_S....ramboll.ee/dmdocuments/2007-050_200R0800.dwf 

I think this has to be misunderstanding because the road is clearly designed as a I class highway and not a motorway.


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## maanus_j

The reconstructed and newly built sections of Tallinn-Tartu/E263 should be the most probable option.

E20 east of Tallinn (currently 60 km of 2+2, until Viitna, in a few years should be 80 km of 2+2, until Haljala) needs serious improvements to get motorway status - it has quite a lot of U-turns and small village roads joining the highway every now and then, which would mean building several grade-separated junctions and lots of collector roads. With current traffic density, there's no serious need for such improvements. Currently a rather expensive renovation of a km 20 section between Liiapeksi and Loobu is undergoing, but as far as I know, it's simple renovation - no new junctions will be built. 

E263 has better chances because it will be a newly built 2+2 expressway and will be built with a "motorway layout" (I remember hearing the term somewhere) - only grade-separated junctions, no U-turns, lots of collector roads=no random roads joining the main highway. But building the road according to all the technical standards of motorways (somewhat wider, thicker pavement?, continuously lit?, don't know...) would probably be too expensive and not justified, given the traffic volumes.
Currently only the 7 km Vaida-Aruvalla (renovated a few years ago) section has a "motorway layout", but if a similar road would be built until Mäo, this section would in my opinion have the best chances of becoming a motorway.

E67 from Tallinn to Ääsmäe has the same problems as E20 (a legacy of the times it was built): it was built as a simple 2+2 expressway, and given the traffic volumes, converting it to a road corresponding to all the motorway standards wouldn't be justified as there are other roads which are in a more serious need for investments.


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## tonito_croat

some quite poor, still many good roads in Estonia!

keep up with good work ppl!!


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## tonito_croat

Hasper said:


> A bit updated map (based upon the road construction funding plan for 2010-2013):


this is map of Estonia that includes some territory that is not in today's Estonia hno: hno: hno:

deal with it, Estonians, this borders today are your final borders :bash:


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## albeva

this is not the thread for such discussion. But just a note -until final border treaty is signed and ratified by both Estonia and Russia then we can't really talk about the final border and territory.


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## tonito_croat

albeva said:


> this is not the thread for such discussion. But just a note -until final border treaty is signed and ratified by both Estonia and Russia then we can't really talk about the final border and territory.


sure this is not thread for such provocation, putting here wrong map hno:

theredays you have ur borders and, besides, there are 95% Russians in area that were separated from Estonia.

Croatia once had whole Bosnia in her hands, sure it was like 1000 years ago, but today noone will put some Croatia and Bosnia map without border. 

this is not topic for politics, but even more, it doesn't give u right to put it and think noone will notice. :bash:


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## tonito_croat

but let's just forget this.


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## scurt/2

Is there a tunnel proposed to make the link between Estonian mainland and Saaremaa? Would it be useful or just wasted money?

Does Saaremaa mean _The Land of the Island_?


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## ChrisZwolle

There are proposals for both a bridge and tunnel, although a bridge is more likely because it's more cost-efficient. I've read about this project in a study, it was supposedly cheaper to build a 7 kilometer bridge than maintaining the subsidized ferries.


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## Grisent

maanus_j said:


> The reconstructed and newly built sections of Tallinn-Tartu/E263 should be the most probable option.
> 
> ...


E263 Kose-Mäo would be the most logical choice for a motorway in my opinion, too. Having a totally new alignment and passing only through thinly-inhabited areas - it should be no problem at all to just build a few grade-separated junctions and avoid direct access from village roads.

Local traffic and public transport can continue using the old road, which means new 2x2 will be left just for long-distance traffic. And the new road was supposed to get several ecoducts - which would allow all the roadside to be fenced to keep animals away.

All in all, E263 Kose-Mäo would be an ideal choice for a motorway; and it is quite disappointing that it will be built strictly just to 1st-class highway requirements. The cross-section they have chosen will not be upgradeable to motorway standard.

By the way, yes - engineering standards require a motorway to be continuously lit. However, lighting could easily be added later, but widening the median by 8,5 metres is a work that nobody ever is going to undertake. :/


But E20 -- I think it is not too bad, actually. Of course, Jõelähtme is a pretty substandard at-grade junction, with 2 busy U-turns and a narrow westbound bridge at a very inconvenient place. Moreover, in the further part of the road there are several U-turns; junction with T85 Liiapeksi-Loksa specifically ought to be rebuilt and grade-separated. 

But the remaining part inbetween (more specifically, between Jägala and Kupu) could very well serve as a motorway. Road profile should be more or less sufficient, it is partly fenced, and Jägala, Kiiu, Kuusalu, Kupu are all very respectable junctions. (I would only eliminate the eastbound petrol station in Kuusalu, which is too close to the road.) I am sure many of the local access roads could be eliminated as well.


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## Hasper

Maximum allowed speed on a motorway in Estonia is 120km/h. The only road that ever did get a 120km/h speed limit, was E20. Only once, only on a short stretch, more than 10 years ago.



> I think this has to be misunderstanding because the road is clearly designed as a I class highway and not a motorway.


 Ramboll likes motorway signs. You can see ones on their Romeda-Haljala schemes as well. 



> Of course, Jõelähtme is a pretty substandard at-grade junction, with 2 busy U-turns and a narrow westbound bridge at a very inconvenient place.


 Those at-grade junctions are something, that is totally unneeded. They can be gotten rid off easily. 
Let's fantasize a bit... again.
~6km of new collector roads should be build (1.8km were planed to be built quite soon). About 3.5km of collector roads should be repaved.
An option: to build a combined bridge for both local traffic and pedestrians.
As a result: 3 U-turns, 1 at-grade intersection, 1 pedestrian crossing and 14 local road turns will be removed.
Something like this:

Then the "to Tallinn carriageway" has to be rebuild to match the 1 class standards.



> junction with T85 Liiapeksi-Loksa specifically ought to be rebuilt and grade-separated.


 They have started building one in the 80s. But the project is on hold since then.


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## Grisent

Very good work! That is a nice solution. Indeed, a junction at Jõelähtme is not necessary. Having too many junctions close together would not conform to motorway standards, either.


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## albeva

I agree. it should probably be just a bridge over the highway for local connecting traffic


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## alekssa1

Hasper said:


> Maximum allowed speed on a motorway in Estonia is 120km/h. The only road that ever did get a 120km/h speed limit, was E20. Only once, only on a short stretch, more than 10 years ago.


And now it is mostly 90, where all drive 100-110 and some parts are 110 where the average speed is 120


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## maanus_j

Grisent said:


> ...
> All in all, E263 Kose-Mäo would be an ideal choice for a motorway; and it is quite disappointing that it will be built strictly just to 1st-class highway requirements. The cross-section they have chosen will not be upgradeable to motorway standard.
> 
> By the way, yes - engineering standards require a motorway to be continuously lit. However, lighting could easily be added later, but widening the median by 8,5 metres is a work that nobody ever is going to undertake. :/
> ...


Actually I don't think that narrow median would be an insurmountable problem - project documentation for the Kose-Mäo section shows that the road will have a continuous crash barrier in the median (apart for a few crossing areas for wildlife) and will also be fenced. Instead the motorway standards should/could be changed to include a road with narrow median and crash barriers - and although Estonian bureaucrats are known for excessive and sometimes plain stupid enthusiasm in fulfilling all kinds of regulations, I still hope that common sense has not entirely left our road officials - narrow median with crash barriers isn't really worse than a wide median. I think it's actually the better option: less land under highways, less resources used.


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## Tin_Can

Man,you should check news more often  Viitna bypass has been U/C for few months now.


Tallinn-Saku highway is U/C again,after Maanteeamet hired Tref AS to finish the work (previous company abandoned works) They hope to pave first layer of new asphalt in this year and finish entire road by summer 2011.


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## Grisent

Rebasepoiss said:


> According to this http://www.inspirit.ee/maantee/ , Liiapeksi - Loobu won't be finished until the end of July, 2011.


Maybe next year the other carriageway will be renovated?

Road Administration currently indicates that between Pikasaare and Loobu (km 65,0-70,6) the left carriageway will be repaired, too. However, there is no mention of timeframe nor contractor for the job, nor even what kind of renovation work will be done. 

Or another possibility -- perhaps I didn't notice and they are planning some major reconstructions on eastbound Loobu bridge, which will not start until next year. Other than that, I honestly cannot imagine what they might be doing on the current construction site until July 2011. All that is left to do is to finish shoulders, paint lines and install signage.

Repaving Pikasaare-Loobu left carriageway would also be doable by July 2011. Although in long term, this stretch should be rebuilt from scratch. It is basically the old 1+1 road repurposed -- it is unleveled and does not have an emergency lane. And Loobu bridge on the left carriageway looks seriously dilapidated and it doesn't even have two full-width lanes.



Rebasepoiss said:


> BTW, I had no idea that Viitna bypass is already being built. That means next autumn we will have 8.3km of brand new dual carriageway.


The bypass is still in an early stage, the builders are moving earth and sand around and the carriageways have not quite taken shape yet.


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## Grisent

Hasper said:


> Tallinn-Kanama (Saue) section of the Tallinn - Parnu highway is fully lit, has a wide median. After Topi and Saue interchanges will be build, there won't be any at-grade crossings or U-turns. It is longer than 4km. A perfect candidate!


I have one more requirement - Kanama interchange needs physically separated collector-distributor lanes. For example, when making the loop from Keila towards Tallinn, getting dumped onto the carriageway is somewhat unsettling. If that is done, the road could be a motorway up to Ääsmäe.

What is "Saue interchange" referring to?


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## makaveli6

Are there any maps to show exact location of roads U/C in Estonia?


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## Rebasepoiss

makaveli6 said:


> Are there any maps to show exact location of roads U/C in Estonia?


Well, this map http://www.inspirit.ee/maantee/map/index.html?locale=en shows roadworks in Estonia and the speed restrictions. Unfortunately the descriptions of the roadworks are in Estonian.


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## Hasper

> Road Administration currently indicates that between Pikasaare and Loobu (km 65,0-70,6) the left carriageway will be repaired, too. However, there is no mention of timeframe nor contractor for the job, nor even what kind of renovation work will be done.


 Construction should start later this year or early next year, after the right carriageway is done. All of the construction on the Valgejõe - Rõmeda stretch should be done by the end of 2011. (Based on http://www.virumaateataja.ee/?id=96383).



> Repaving Pikasaare-Loobu left carriageway would also be doable by July 2011. Although in long term, this stretch should be rebuilt from scratch. It is basically the old 1+1 road repurposed -- it is unleveled and does not have an emergency lane. And Loobu bridge on the left carriageway looks seriously dilapidated and it doesn't even have two full-width lanes.


 I Pikasaare-Loobu section will be rebuild from scratch. Like they did with the old 1+1 2km section of the Liiapeksi - Loobu strech on the right carriageway. This includes the construction of the new left Loobu bridge. 



> I have one more requirement - Kanama interchange needs physically separated collector-distributor lanes.


 I think there is enough space between the bridge abutment and the carriageway to fit one, but I doubt they are going to build it.
BTW. During the ramp reconstruction, they have changed the road surface marking. Now driving from Keila to Tallinn, you end up on the "independent" acceleration lane.



> What is "Saue interchange" referring to?


 The new interchange which would allow direct access between the village of Saue and E67, can be seen here (between Topi and Kanama):
http://viabaltica.hendrikson.ee/uploads/public/joonised/km 12-25.pdf
The official name for it is different.


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## Grisent

Hasper said:


> I think there is enough space between the bridge abutment and the carriageway to fit one, but I doubt they are going to build it.
> BTW. During the ramp reconstruction, they have changed the road surface marking. Now driving from Keila to Tallinn, you end up on the "independent" acceleration lane.


Hm. To my mind, it looks like this at the moment:



Which means that when entering from the loop, I happily cruise right into other drivers' deceleration lane. 



Hasper said:


> The new interchange which would allow direct access between the village of Saue and E67, can be seen here (between Topi and Kanama):
> http://viabaltica.hendrikson.ee/uploads/public/joonised/km 12-25.pdf
> The official name for it is different.


Good link, thanks.

By the way, the distance between junctions thus shrinks to roughly 900, 1400 and 1800 m, respectively -- or *slightly* below the recommended 5 km for suburban motorways (or 3 km for suburban dual carriageways)  Which in turn makes 4 / E67 much less likely to attain motorway status.


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## Hasper

> Which means that when entering from the loop, I happily cruise right into other drivers' deceleration lane.


 It used to be this way. But they've changed that.


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## Grisent

Ah, OK. 
Well, it's a step in the right direction.


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## Hasper

Now it is official. Construction completion date of the Liiapeksi - Loobu stretch (E20) is late summer/fall 2011. Originally to be opened a week ago, it is now delayed for a year. Way to go Nordecon!


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ I really do hope that some hefty fines are waiting to be handed out...this is absurd!


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## S.T.A.S.

What is the cause of the delay anyone know?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ http://www.e24.ee/?id=345341


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## Rebasepoiss

As this subject came up in the German Highway thread, I'd like to share a similar example from Estonia. It's a territorial oddity in South-East Estonia. Road nr 18178 which connects Värska and Saatse, runs through Russian territory on a 800m section. No visa is required but you are not allowed to stop or walk on this road. It's called Saatse saabas("boot" in English)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&sou...08373,27.718077&spn=0.01409,0.045447&t=h&z=15








_by Uku Praks_









_From http://www.goestonia.ee/index.php?y=274_


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## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> As this subject came up in the German Highway thread, I'd like to share a similar example from Estonia. It's a territorial oddity in South-East Estonia. Road nr 18178 which connects Värska and Saatse, runs through Russian territory on a 800m section.


That territory is legally Estonia but still occupied by Russia.


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## Pansori

Wow, this is interesting. Is there a detailed map of it? I'd like to try it. What happens if you stop or walk? Are Russians in charge there or is it some kind of "demilitarized" zone or a dual-control area? Why did this happen anyway?


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## Rebasepoiss

Pansori said:


> Wow, this is interesting. Is there a detailed map of it? I'd like to try it. What happens if you stop or walk? Are Russians in charge there or is it some kind of "demilitarized" zone or a dual-control area? Why did this happen anyway?


This territory in fact belongs to Russia according to the current "temporary" control line but I have no idea why this piece of land has to be on the Russian side. There is no active control on this road but if you happen to jog through there or stop your car for too long, you may be arrested by Russian border guard(and this has actually happened several times) A friend of mine rode through there on a bike and fortunately wasn't stopped 

I couldn't find a good map of this particular area, though.

This Saatse "boot" would've been given to Estonia if the border treaty had been signed in 2005...


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## Pansori

Ok, it can be seen in Google Maps. It won't be apparent in map mode but it's clearly seen in sattelite mode. This is indeed very exciting. I may want to visit that place some day  http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=57.908989,27.716274&spn=0.014865,0.045447&z=15


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## maanus_j

Maanteeamet has apparently started tender for the Kroodi interchange, which is complementary to the currently under construction Loo-Maardu section. 
There doesn't seem to be any plans available yet, but afaik it should look something like this.
So 2 new railway overpasses will be built and all traffic can access E20 via the new grade separated junction currently under construction there. Also the road to Port of Muuga (Põhjaranna tee) will be renovated.

Edit: General plan of Maardu (pdf, 8.7 MB) also shows the probable traffic scheme.


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## Hasper

> Maanteeamet has apparently started tender for the Kroodi interchange


 Only the first part of it.



> There doesn't seem to be any plans available yet,


 You can see the interchange here:
http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/tn2006est.pdf



> but afaik it should look something like this.


 Not exactly. Roundabout is part of the existing project. They are already building it. The bridge connecting Kombinaadi and Keemikute streets is not included in the 1st part of the project.

Step 1 of Kroodi Interchange construction.
New road construction:
-Põhjaranna tee construction ca 1,8 km
-Vana-Narva maantee construction ca 1,5 km 
-Roads for pedestrians and bicyclists ca 1,8 km

Two viaducts will be build:
"Viaduct 1" 9 spans, length ca 200 m, width ca 16 m.
"Viaduct 2", 2 spans, length ca 60 m, width ca 22 m.

The project also includes reconstruction of Põhjaranna tee (km 2,39- km 3,44) to bring it up to III class standard.


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## Grisent

So, another heavier snowstorm today. The Road Administration is keeping an updated list of tertiary roads that are currently impassable or in very bad condition. Particularly, roads of Jõelähtme and Kuusalu communes are again on the list.

One of the roads marked as "passable with difficulties" is Kostivere-Raasiku road - the one where 18 people (and a snowplough!) got stranded during the last snowstorm and which had to be closed to traffic and evacuated with special equipment. Seems to be a particularly blizzard-prone stretch of road. 

A very good blizzard protection measure is roadside hedges. In the long term, Kostivere-Raasiku road (and probably several others) would need hedges, too. However, I wonder how could that be arranged? On smaller roads, immediate roadside land is probably owned privately, not by state.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Hedges are, in fact, an old but still the best method to avoid the accumulation of snow on the road by wind. I think that new hedges should be planted on the open stretches of road to prevent this.

I have a few photos of E263 / T2 / Tallinn-Tartu highway from 24-12-2010:

The following photos are taken between Kose and Mäo.




































You can see a hedge on both sides of the road which is quite common in Estonia. These were planted to prevent the wind from blowing snow on to the road - very useful IMO. Somehow these haven't been used in the last few decades.



























An unusually long row of cars.









Mäo bypass (2x2 lanes) on the following photos:




































Back on the normal road.


















Getting dark...(at ~ PM 3.15)









I rode the same road today (25-12-2010) by bus and the conditions were a lot worse. It had snowed all night so the road was pretty much covered with snow,


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## AlexisMD

^^ beautiful


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## maanus_j

I don't think hedges have been forgotten in coping with snowdrift. I drove on E20 some days ago and remember seeing a row of spruce saplings which would become a hedge in some years (right here).
E20 itself near Jõelähtme and Kostivere had very good protection against snowdrift. There are hedges on the northern side of the road and all the gaps were protected with temporary snow fences (such as this one). The area around there is probably one of the most snowdrift prone areas in Estonia - wide unobstructed fields open to the strong winds coming north from the sea. E20 in Virumaa between Viru-Nigula and Purtse, where several hundred people got stuck in the previous snowstorm, has the some problems - the road runs close to the sea (at one point 500 m from sea, but more than 50 m above sea level) and again, there are mostly open fields between the sea and the highway, so nothing stops the wind.


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## jkk

*Traffic death toll at record low*

78 people lost their life in traffic accidents in Estonia last year which is 22 people less than in 2009 and the lowest for the last 65 years, writes aripaev.ee

This is well ahead of the national goal to achieve less than 100 traffic fatalities by 2015. 

According to the national road administration, 100 people were killed in traffic in 2009 and 132 people in 2008.

Also the number of people injured in traffic accidents is the lowest for the last decade.

The total number of traffic accidents was 1,549, down from 2,204 traffic accidents in 2008.

The darkest month in traffic in 2010 was in July when 12 people died.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ AFAIK, counting road deaths per 1 million people, this result is around the same level as Finland.


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## ChrisZwolle

Estonia may be the first post-communist country to achieve the same road safety level as most west European countries.


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## and802

good day collegues 

1. what is the highest fine you can get in Estonia ?

2. what is the fine ticket for the following traffic offence: you do 155 km/h on the road where 100 km/h is allowed ?


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## Rebasepoiss

and802 said:


> good day collegues
> 
> 1. what is the highest fine you can get in Estonia ?


For drunk driving, up to € 1200



and802 said:


> 2. what is the fine ticket for the following traffic offence: you do 155 km/h on the road where 100 km/h is allowed ?


Up to € 800 but you could also be sentenced to imprisonment or you could lose your driving license for up to a year. However, at 155 km/h a fine is the most likely one.


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## Wover

If it was 155 on your gauge, it will probably be 145 with offset of your speedometer and correction of the measuring device. So that would be 45 above the limit.

I had the following situation which are pretty different circumstances, but still:

I was joining Tartu Maantee in the direction of Tartu coming from road 11 ("ringroad" of Tallinn) and didn't notice any signs but assumed the speed limit was 110 (2 * 2 road outside city limits) while in fact it was 90.

100m before the first 110 sign I saw some "high-visibility" jackets waving their arm and indeed they had radared me. I drove 120 on the speedometer and 111 on the radar. With correction it became 107 (+17kph) and after a long talk with the police officer I got away with a 300 krones (€19) fine...

Other situation: In August my friends helped me move here and drove the van back to Belgium. Right after the border with Latvia on the A3 they were stopped by police that caught them driving 122 on a 90kph road. They got off with a warning...


But you probably got a letter home with an invitation to have appeal or something. In that case the standard tarrifs will be in place which would probably mean a fine of a few hundred euros.


----------



## and802

wow,

I spent two years in Eesti Vabariik in nineties, and that time fines were "slightly" different. 800 euro is even worse than in Slovakia !


----------



## Rebasepoiss

and802 said:


> wow,
> 
> I spent two years in Eesti Vabariik in nineties, and that time fines were "slightly" different. 800 euro is even worse than in Slovakia !


Well, we have 3 different "categories" for speeding:

1-20 km/h over the limit: up to € 120.
21-40 km/h over the limit: up to € 400 or driving license taken away for up to 6 months.
41-... km/h over the limit: up to € 800 or driving license taken away for up to 6 months or imprisonment.

An example: at the beginning of November, a Swedish citizen drove 182 km/h in a 90 km/h zone. He was kept under arrest for 2 days until the court. The court decided that the 2-day imprisonment was a suitable punishment all alone.


----------



## hammersklavier

Welcome to the Eurozone Estonia!


----------



## Aestii

jkk said:


> *Traffic death toll at record low*
> 
> 78 people lost their life in traffic accidents in Estonia last year which is 22 people less than in 2009 and the lowest for the last 65 years, writes aripaev.ee
> 
> This is well ahead of the national goal to achieve less than 100 traffic fatalities by 2015.
> 
> According to the national road administration, 100 people were killed in traffic in 2009 and 132 people in 2008.


Same for Lithuania. Last year we have managed to achieve the lowest number of people dead because of car accidents since *1960*! 300 people have died in total. That is 19% less than in the 2009. The highest number was in 1991, 1173 died then. 

I just don't understand, how so many people died back in those times when there were far less cars on our roads :dunno:


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Almost non-existent traffic law enforcement, worse road infrastructure, less safe cars (no seat belts, air bags), less knowledge of safe driving and the dangers which road traffic delivers etc.


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## Pansori

It must have been freakin dangerous to drive back in those days. I mean what was the number of cars per 1000 inhabitants? I would guess no more than 50? Maybe less? Today it's around 500-600 and especially in Lithuania many cars are second-hand old ones from Germany, Netherlands etc. which means they are far from being very safe either. Roads are much more crowded and yet we have less accidents then in the 1960 in absolute numbers. That is just hard to believe!


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## Magnus Brage

hammersklavier said:


> Welcome to the Eurozone Estonia!


yes, estonia have borded the Titanic of CURR€NCY. Soon the €uro will hit the Iceberg when Romania and Bulgaria also join. I'm glad Sweden still have their "krona"


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## ChrisZwolle

Nearly all countries had their unsafest roads in the 1950's. That was the first big boom of automobile traffic in Europe, leading to many unexperienced drivers in extremely unsafe cars on the roads. China has the same problem now.


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## void0

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ AFAIK, counting road deaths per 1 million people, this result is around the same level as Finland.


In Finland 12 deaths per million.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No way, Finland had 270 traffic fatalities in 2010. That translates to 50 deaths per million. The safest countries in Europe achieve around 36 - 40 deaths per million. Anything over 75 is above average. Lithuania for example has 91 deaths, similar to Belgium and (one of) the worst in Europe. Though I must add Lithuania was over 120 deaths only 1 or 2 years ago, so things are improving drastically. The only established wealthy country with high traffic volumes for years that has not been able to significantly slash traffic fatalities is Belgium.


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## void0

ChrisZwolle said:


> No way, Finland had 270 traffic fatalities in 2010. That translates to 50 deaths per million.


Weird... in this (Russian) article written 1.2 per 100 000 in 2009.

BTW, in Russia more than 24 000 last year, too much of course, but it is the minimal level, every year decreasing by 8-10%


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## g.spinoza

Magnus Brage said:


> yes, estonia have borded the Titanic of CURR€NCY. Soon the €uro will hit the Iceberg when Romania and Bulgaria also join. I'm glad Sweden still have their "krona"


As you may know, Sweden has no "opt-out" so sooner or later it will have to adopt the Euro.
Btw, your statement above is one of the most simplistic things I've ever read.


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## sotonsi

g.spinoza said:


> As you may know, Sweden has no "opt-out" so sooner or later it will have to adopt the Euro.


But surely, like the UK, they are trying to make it go as far into later as possible? In the UK we have 6 conditions (relating to the compatibility of the UK and Eurozone economies and won't be challenged as having a large but disparate economy join the Eurozone will scupper the whole project) that when met will enable joining to take place. Given that the conditions will never be met, and that joining the Euro will likely need a referendum, which it'll not win, the UK has a plan for joining the Euro - it's not opted-out of joining it but never will actually opt-in.


> Btw, your statement above is one of the most simplistic things I've ever read.


Indeed, it rules out the possibility that it'll hit the iceberg before Bulgaria or Romania join, or that it's hit it already, or even that the Euro-ship even needs to hit an iceberg to sink, having been of a design that needed sticking tape solutions to keep it afloat from the beginning.

Anyway, all this is off topic, other than this plea: Estonia, while your economy does well because the European Central Bank treats it like Germany's - in need of constant stimulus via low interest rates promoting spending and borrowing, don't overstretch yourselves when it comes to all that cheap credit you'll have to build infrastructure like Ireland, Spain and Greece.

Estonia - your infrastructure has been reaping the benefits of cheap credit for a short time already, while you've had fixed exchange rates with the Eurozone, but now you are in the Euro, you are passed the point of no return - you can't drop out (which the UK did in the 1990s when it was just fixed exchange rates) or devalue the currency (which the UK did in the 2000s, after doing the silly over-stimulating even without devolving fiscal policy to Frankfurt as keeping fiscal policy local doesn't mean that you don't end up with buffoons in charge) now in order to keep your economy from getting into worse problems, so learn from the examples of the PIIGS and don't go over-the-top with the infrastructure glut that's easy to do with the cheap credit (hopefully the lenders will help you by not giving you more than you can manage, but an assumption that Germany would rather back the loans rather than see the Euro fail won't help there).


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## sotonsi

Hence why I said that this was off-topic, other than the plea for restraint to not spend a bucket load of money, given the cheap credit that comes from ECB fiscal policy (and despite the credit crunch, will still be there thanks to the bailing out of the Euro by forcing Ireland and Greece to take on a load more debt and cripple their economies more), on roads like Ireland and Spain and Greece did.

If you read all my post, you'd know that I came back on topic, discussing Estonia being the Euro and what it might mean for Highways...

This thread is also not about griping about thread drift, so I apologise for this completely off-topic post responding to a completely off-topic post. Unlike my last one, I didn't bring it back on topic.


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## g.spinoza

sotonsi said:


> But surely, like the UK, they are trying to make it go as far into later as possible? [...]the UK has a plan for joining the Euro - it's not opted-out of joining it but never will actually opt-in.


No, UK has indeed opted out, so it could stay off the Euro forever. Denmark is the only other nation which opted out. End off topic.


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## Grisent

With regard to infrastructure funding, I say the government's current strategy is mostly focused on using EU structural fund grants, rather than taking loans. There is a boatload of money waiting to be used - 1,15bn € allocated from Cohesion Fund and 1,86bn € from ERDF, both for 2007-2013. 

Here's a list of EU support-eligible infrastructure projects (in Estonian), approved by the government in 2008. Most projects listed here are expected to be 75%...80% funded by EU, some up to 100% (I've no idea how that works).

It definitely won't be possible to use all the money as planned - projects will go over deadlines, procurements will fail etc. However, what is important is that practically every larger infrastructure project that is being considered at all, is also featured on the list.

Recently completed road projects have worked out as follows:
E20 Kukruse-Jõhvi 2x2 - total 40m €, 30% from EU (that was a bit of a failure )
E263 Mäo bypass 2x2 - total 31m €, 79% from EU

And ongoing projects
E20 Loo-Maardu 2x3 - total 24m €, 80% from EU
E67 Pärnu bypass - total 51m €, 80% from EU

So, it seems the Estonian government is fortunate enough that it doesn't currently need to consider large infrastructure loans, and it hasn't done any significant borrowing so far. On the contrary - economists have pointed out that all the cheap credit that Swedish banks poured into Estonian economy in the last few yeas, had no other results besides increasing domestic consumption and raising private debt.


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## Grisent

Here are a few photos I took this weekend — on a pretty random route through some industrial suburbs of Tallinn:




























Right lane is... closed.  


















































































On the Tallinn bypass (T11).










A new sign that has apparently been installed this autumn. (Here's the previous one.)



















T1 (E20). Here starts the Väo-Maardu stretch that is currently being renovated, grade-separated and widened to 2x3. 
There's not much to report, though, since everything is covered with snow at the moment.


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## Wover

Hey, thanks for the pictures .



Any news on the ice roads status? Is mainland - Muhu route opened? And is there a site where I can check the status of the roads?

I might want to use it on the 21st/22nd of February.

edit: Found the right page, but no information: http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=10650


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The temperatures have been rather mild and the thick snow acts like a warm blanket so it's not really certain whether we will see ice roads at all this year.


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## Palance

Interesting. I have plans to visit Tallinn this year.

Just curious: Where the signs in Soviet-times also in Latin alphabet or in cyrillic (or both)?


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## Grisent

Signs were written in both scripts - Estonian place names had a Russian transliteration below. An example (from 1987?):









(source: probably lifted from the now-defunct tallinn.mashke.org)

The transliterated signs disappeared rather quickly in the beginning of the 90's, due to the new Estonian language law declaring them unlawful. But I guess there weren't a lot to begin with; Soviet-era roads had little signage and it was rather poor for navigation purposes. Only towns and larger settlements were indicated; advance signs could be found on only the largest junctions.


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## mcarling

Grisent said:


> Soviet-era roads had little signage and it was rather poor for navigation purposes. Only towns and larger settlements were indicated; advance signs could be found on only the largest junctions.


Yes. The soviet approach to navigational signs was that if one didn't know how to get somewhere, then he probably didn't have authorization to go there.


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## PhirgataZFs1694

Grisent said:


> (source: probably lifted from the now-defunct tallinn.mashke.org)


Beauty! Which version of Ikarus I see in this picture?
Three doored:








or four-doored joint:









My bet is 3d:lol:

How long ago did you manage to get rid off this crap?:lol:


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## ea1969

^^
These buses weren't so bad. We had them in Athens and managed to serve from 1979 up to 2004! Of course only a few of very first ones survived up to 2004; most which did last until the end were assembled in Greece in the mid-1980's. And there are some of them that were handed in to municipal councils and are still running!

(Sorry for the OT).


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## Rebasepoiss

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> How long ago did you manage to get rid off this crap?:lol:


^^ The last one retired in 2003 in Tallinn.


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## Tin_Can

I agree with ea1969. Ikarus buses were pretty good (in fact,some of them were lot better than some Scania buses which replaced them) Sadly our last Ikarus buses had badly worn interior and did not comply with EURO co2 standards.

OT - Is _tallinn.mashke.org_ really dead? I've heard that some day owners might resurrect it.


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## SeanT

I think something is happenning with IKARUS. It seems that some investors want to put it alive with very serious new advanced types of buses which full fill any demands/expectations. That is what I´ve heard from hungarian medias. We are looking forward to see some new buses with IKARUS badge on it.


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## Rebasepoiss

Tin_Can said:


> I agree with ea1969. Ikarus buses were pretty good (in fact,some of them were lot better than some Scania buses which replaced them) Sadly our last Ikarus buses had badly worn interior and did not comply with EURO co2 standards.


Sorry but I think this is pure nostalgy. If you look at other companies' buses that were made around the same time as Ikarus buses, they were far superior. Other than being quite spacious(since the floor was flat and there weren't many seats), Ikarus buses were uncomfortable for both the driver and the passangers. It was noisy, the engine was weak, pretty much no heating(one small radiator for the whole bus). I do agree with you about the Scania buses from the mid 90s but these were(and still are) crappy because they were built in Estona.

Sorry for OT.


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## Grisent

^^ Agree. With poor heating and single-glazed windows, Ikaruses were awful in winter.


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## Hasper

Visualization of the Mõigu interchange (Tallinn - Tartu, km 4,4 - 6,6):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcozKKaKhQk&feature=related

The 3D model can be found here (Additional software needs to be installed first.):
http://www.teedeprojekt.ee/moiguvisull/

Mõigu is a bottleneck of the Tallinn - Tartu road. This small section currently is a simple 1+1 road, with traffic lights. But it is 2x2 before and after Mõigu. It is planned to be reconstructed into 2x2 I class road, with a 70km/h speed limit. The only problem is that this project won't happen in the near future.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ 
Fixed it for ya :
BTW, if you look up, the original plans reserved space for a future tramline which the final plans don't....






The problem is that we have done shitloads of pre-projects. Most of them won't be built in the near future and some will never be built.


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## Grisent

If you prefer to study the project without tiny animated cars, here is a PDF: 

http://moigu.teedeprojekt.ee/ee/dokumendid?cat_id=20

(the first link - Trassi skeem > Laadi alla)

I see the project also includes a junction with Tallinn's future smaller bypass. I am really looking forward to the bypass being built; but that project is apparently as far or even further away than T2/E263 widening at Mõigu.










Especially the eastern half of the bypass would be a very handy connection. Ever since the Smuuli tee road viaduct was completed in 2007, it has been... well, nice to drive along once in a while, but certainly not up to its potential usefulness. It really begs to be extended with a tunnel beneath the airport runway and up to a junction with T2.

With the Tallinn's smaller bypass, there would finally be a viable option to direct some traffic into town centre AVOIDING Ülemiste intersection. This is the current "official" transit route that is supposed to take traffic from T2 to downtown ferry harbour, and signposted as "E20 STOCKHOLM / E67 HELSINKI". It is, frankly, ridiculous. With all due respect though -- I must say I cannot offer a better alternative; and I like that the city is doing some traffic management with the road network it currently has. But I'd personally take the direct route almost any time of day, and every tourist with a GPS is probably going to do the same  The bypass would make the route a lot more logical.

Seems that Tallinn smaller bypass is a municipal project, not Road Administration project. that makes the chances of it being built somewhat slimmer


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ I think that Ülemiste intersection will be the only large reconstruction project in Tallinn area for a long time. Tallinn city itself has practically no finances available for road projects and I don't think it will receive any more EU money.

What we probably will see is the gradual reconstruction of Tallinn's bypass, starting from a few intersections and widening Väo-Jüri to 2x2.


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## Hasper

1) Viitna - Haljala road project has been approved by the Kadrina parish authorities. After Viitna bypass (Tallinn - Narva road) will be completed (fall 2011), the old alignment will be used as a part of a new collector road, connecting Viitna and Haljala. The project includes construction of a grade separated crossing - Romeda viaduct. Construction should have started last year, but there were some problems with the locals. They were against construction of the bridge in the purposed location, saying that the current intersection location (where the new bypass begins) is better. 

So the local authorities requested additional research to be conducted. Result - locals lost. Now that the project is approved, construction can start... or atleast I think so. 

2) Purtse bridge (Tallinn - Narva road) will be reconstructed this year. Currently it is a narrow bridge (8.5m) with a bad quality pavement and a low speed limit.




> I class road, with a 70km/h speed limit.


 Sorry, my mistake. It is going to be a simple 2+2 road, with a 2m wide median (like Jarvevana tee), 3.5m wide lanes and a 1.5m wide shoulder. I think it is called a "linna kiirtee" (Project speed: 80km/h). They want to fit as much as possible in the space available.



> I see the project also includes a junction with Tallinn's future smaller bypass.


 :banana: With left turns and traffic lights...




> even further away than T2/E263 widening at Mõigu.


 The situation is going to improve a bit:


> Lisaks on Ülemiste liiklussõlme projekti raames kavas korraldada veel kolm riigihanget. ... Teine Lennujaama tee-Mõigu tee rekonstrueerimiseks, mille mahus laiendatakse Tartu maanteed lõigus Vana-Tartu mnt-Mõigu tee kaks pluss kaks rajaliseks.


Taken from:
http://www.ehitusinfo.ee/index.php?aid=10138
It is like 500m?



> What we probably will see is the gradual reconstruction of Tallinn's bypass, starting from a few intersections and widening Väo-Jüri to 2x2.


 And a completely new bypass: Juuliku - Taabasalu road construction should start this or next year. About 5km of new road are expected be built (Juuliku - Laagri). Original idea of a fully I class road with a project speed of 100km/h has been put on hold. Now it is going to be a simple 1+1 road. Major interchange are still planned as 2x2 I class.


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## Grisent

I agree -- Tallinn will probably not be able to undertake any other larger reconstructions in the near future, besides Ülemiste. 

Furthermore, there are several other big road projects on Tallinn's to-do list; notably
1) Haabersti interchange
2) Northern Passage + Russalka interchange

Both have been in planning considerably longer than Tallinn smaller bypass and both are being postponed all the time. I'd also argue that for the smaller bypass to be really effective, Northern Passage and Russalka interchange need to be built first, anyway.



> Lisaks on Ülemiste liiklussõlme projekti raames kavas korraldada veel kolm riigihanget. ... Teine Lennujaama tee-Mõigu tee rekonstrueerimiseks, mille mahus laiendatakse Tartu maanteed lõigus Vana-Tartu mnt-Mõigu tee kaks pluss kaks rajaliseks.


^^ Very, very strange. This is the stretch between Vana-Tartu mnt. and Mõigu tee. If the article is correct, the reconstruction would leave 250 METRES of single-carriageway road in the middle of 2x2. I hope this information is incorrect and no such gap will be left if said reconstruction takes place.

Or: I have a uneasy feeling that perhaps there are two different plans concerning Mõigu. Perhaps Tallinn is going indeed to hold tender for just a very simple road widening? A 2+2 dual carriageway up to Mõigu tee intersection, fully at-grade, left-turns-and-traffic-lights-whatever. In which case this pre-project by _Teedeprojekt_ is just a random fantasy, to be shelved and forgotten.


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## Tin_Can

Rebasepoiss said:


> BTW, if you look up, the original plans reserved space for a future tramline which the final plans don't....


:badnews:

WTF? Why was it removed? How f**king short sighted those planners are?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The orginial plan:









The final plan for a similar section of the project:


I guess they had to enable access to the adjacent plots by creating smaller, local streets on both sides of the main highway.


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## Hasper

> Or: I have a uneasy feeling that perhaps there are two different plans concerning Moigu. Perhaps Tallinn is going indeed to hold tender for just a very simple road widening? A 2+2 dual carriageway up to Moigu tee intersection, fully at-grade, left-turns-and-traffic-lights-whatever. In which case this pre-project by Teedeprojekt is just a random fantasy, to be shelved and forgotten.


 These are two completely different projects.
From here: http://www.peetri.ee/lahendused-moigu-pudelikaelale/
About the pre-project by Teedeprojekt:


> Tema sonul on kas tunnel, viadukt voi laiendamine on pigem 15-20-aastases perspektiivis.


About the current project:


> Lahiaastatel tahab Tallinn aga laiendada liikluse Moigus 4-realiseks ja valja ehitada nn Selveri ristmiku. Nelja-realiseks saaks teha tee ilma kellegi krundi kallale minemata, samuti rajatakse muratokked.





> WTF? Why was it removed? How f**king short sighted those planners are?


 It is a realistic approach. Tallinn does not have any tram development plans, can't renew existing rolling stock and keep tracks in good condition. How are we going to build new lines?



> I guess they had to enable access to the adjacent plots by creating smaller, local streets on both sides of the main highway.


 The width of the new project is 32m. They can fit it in the space available, except for a few small areas. The old project was 80m wide! It would be too expensive to build.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ I think you can't refer to that page as a source for reliable info. That article is from Otober 2009 when the project had just been started. The tunnel and the viaduct were quickly ruled out during the first stages of the project. The orginial plan didn't have collector roads on both sides of the main road so if you wanted to drive out of your yard, you would've had to merge with traffic going 70km/h. The locals opposed to this(as well as to some other things like the placement of noise barriers). The final project takes into account pretty much all the suggestions local people had: (from here: http://moigu.teedeprojekt.ee/ee/dokumendid?cat_id=23 )

It would be pointless to widen this road to 2x2 lanes without building the interchanges. It's not the amount of lanes that's causing traffic jams, it's mainly one traffic-light controlled intersection.


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## Wover

Maybe ice-roads next week :



> Because of last weeks' storm there are massive cracks and the ice has moved on the mainland - Muhu stretch. In some places the ice is also a bit thin, but hopefully it will grow in the next days. On Monday 21st AS Saaremaa Teed will make additional surveys on the ice. And on basis of that we will make our decision if it is possible to open this road or not.


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## RipleyLV

Longest ice road in Europe - 26,5 km! It connects Estonian continental part with the 2nd largest island Hiiumaa.


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## Rebasepoiss

Roads nr. 1, 2, 3, 6 are currently officially opened.










I'm planning on visiting Vormsi island tomorrow. If I do, I'll make sure to take some photos


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## Tin_Can

^^
This is pretty fitting image to describe current situation:

Satellite image of Estonia. 








Source: EPL

I guess if current -20c to -30c weather continues (and weather forecasts say that it does for atleast one more week),then we'll also see iceroads nr.4 & 5 in this winter.


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## Alexriga

strange, here around Riga see has no ice except some 100 m from the beach.


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## Rebasepoiss

I have quite a few photos from my trip to Vormsi island , coming soon...


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## Fargo Wolf

Rebasepoiss said:


> Roads nr. 1, 2, 3, 6 are currently officially opened.
> 
> I'm planning on visiting Vormsi island tomorrow. If I do, I'll make sure to take some photos


Wow. Some of those crossings are pretty long. What do they do during freezeup/breakup? Or does nothing get to/from the islands by sea during that time?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Ferry routes do not cross the ice roads, they follow a different path(often parallel to the ice roads). Other maritime vehicles are not allowed to cross the paths of the existing or yet to be ice roads either. However, since ice roads cannot support heavy vehicles(trucks, buses), ferrys operate even when ice roads are opened.


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## Rebasepoiss

28 photos to liven up this thread...

1. Welcome to Vormsi island. Tbh, I didn't know a sign like this even existed since I haven't seen them on other Estonian islands.









2. Looking back to the ice road:









3. A reminder of the island's Swedish heritage - placenames.









4. Nice and cosy:









5. Driving around on the island a bit:









6.









7.









8. Entering the ice road:









9.









10. The road splits here. The ice road consists of 2 one-way roads which are ~80m apart.









11.









12.Quite a bit of traffic.









13. A ferry route to Hiiumaa is pretty close to the road.









14. 









15. Back on the mainland, between Rohuküla port and Haapsalu.









16. Driving through Haapsalu.









17.









18.









19.









20.









21. The road gets a bit snowy in the forests.









22.









23.









24. Back on T4/E67. It's 2x2 from here To Tallinn.









25. Speed trap.









26.









27.









28. Entering Tallinn.


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## Fargo Wolf

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ Ferry routes do not cross the ice roads, they follow a different path(often parallel to the ice roads). Other maritime vehicles are not allowed to cross the paths of the existing or yet to be ice roads either. However, since ice roads cannot support heavy vehicles(trucks, buses), ferrys operate even when ice roads are opened.


Kinda defeats the purpose of having an ice road, if the ferries operate year round.

I was just curious, as in northern Canada, if the ice road was closed to all vehicles, the only transport option, is by air (Not a big deal for the City of Yellowknife, now that the first EVER bridge has opened across the MacKenzie [spelling?] River).


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## ChrisZwolle

Can you drive these ice roads at night?


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## S.T.A.S.

Sweet ice road photos Raba!


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## Hasper

2010 traffic density report is up:
http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=10658

Maps can be found here:




> Can you drive these ice roads at night?


 No. Wikipedia lists all the limitations in english: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_road#Estonia


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## Tin_Can

Fargo Wolf said:


> Kinda defeats the purpose of having an ice road, if the ferries operate year round.


No,it doesn't. In such harsh conditions ferry crossing can take up to 9h :nuts: ('record' crossing between mainland & Hiiumaa island) or can be totally halted because of severe weather. In winter ferries are mainly used by trucks.

It's better to use the ice roads - they are free and relatively safe,when marked route is used.

Btw,ice road number 5 will be opened in 22nd or 23rd February.



@Rebasepoiss - Excellent photos! :applause: Lots of familiar places.. :happy:


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> Can you drive these ice roads at night?


No, you can't. At the moment, the official closing time for most ice roads is 17.30 i.e. sunset.


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## Grisent

Tin_Can said:


> No,it doesn't. In such harsh conditions ferry crossing can take up to 9h :nuts: ('record' crossing between mainland & Hiiumaa island) or can be totally halted because of severe weather. In winter ferries are mainly used by trucks.
> 
> It's better to use the ice roads - they are free and relatively safe,when marked route is used.


Even according to the regular schedule, the journey time between mainland and Hiiumaa is 1.5 hours. And for more popular departures (Friday evening etc.), you better make a booking well in advance, or wait in the general queue and risk missing a ferry and having to wait an extra two hours. 

So for the islanders, an ice road is a real blessing. At last, they can skip the usual hassle and just hop in their car whenever they need to run some errands on the mainland.


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## Grisent

Hasper said:


> 2010 traffic density report is up:
> http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=10658


Thanks for the link. I made some quick statistics, hopefully it's correct:

*Highest AADT on 2x2 dual carriageways:*
- *30317 *- on T4 (E67), immediately after Tallinn town limits;
- *25560 *- on T1 (E20) near Tallinn, between Väo and Saha-Loo intersections. The latter is being built into a grade-separated junction and the road widened to 2x3.

*Lowest AADT on 2x2 dual carriageways:*
- *3453* - Road T5 at the newly-opened Mäo interchange in central Estonia. That was quite a surprise for me.
- *5096 *- T1 (E20) near Viitna

*Highest AADT on 2x1 roads:*
- *17059 *- T2 in Tartu, at _Lõunakeskus_ shopping mall;
- *15781 *- Rannamõisa Road (T11390) in Tallinn. Yay for urban sprawl.
- *14864 *- T11 Tallinn bypass, traffic from Jüri interchange to Jüri village


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Traffic density on T1/E20 has decreased quite significantly, possibly due to the large reconstruction works. AFAIK, in 2007, AADT at that point was around 33,000.


----------



## Wover

Driving video made last Monday. Driving from Kuressaare (Saaremaa) to Kuivastu harbour (Muhu). Video starts about halfway that road (road 10).

I'm not very happy about the quality, but I can't seem to find a proper codec to use in Sony Vegas. Now I used quicktime 3Mbps, but it's still a lot worse than the original.


----------



## RV

Is just 33 000 the highest AADT in Estonia? When I was in Tallinn I saw jammed large roads.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

RV said:


> Is just 33 000 the highest AADT in Estonia? When I was in Tallinn I saw jammed large roads.


Traffic densities within city limits are not taken into account. Estonian Road Administration is responsible only for national routes in rural areas.

BTW, where exactly did you drive? Traffic in Tallinn isn't really that bad but there are a couple of bottlenecks which can cause problems during rush hour.



Wover said:


> Driving video made last Monday. Driving from Kuressaare (Saaremaa) to Kuivastu harbour (Muhu). Video starts about halfway that road (road 10).


I love that road. It's in good condition, good road geometry, little traffic, lovely scenery, speed limit of 100km/h in the summer :cheers:


----------



## Grisent

^^ Just FYI, there is at least one exception that I know — road T2 within the town of Tartu belongs to the national road network. But indeed, there are no such cases in Tallinn. 

It would be interesting to know the traffic densities on Tallinn's roads; it's a pity this data has not been collected. But I believe there are several ones that get an AADT considerably higher than 33 000. The T4, Järvevana tee and Liivalaia tn. for sure.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Rebasepoiss said:


>


As of today, all 6 ice roads are officially opened. That's 80km in total


----------



## Hasper

> Highest AADT on 2x1 roads:
> - 17059 - T2 in Tartu, at Lounakeskus shopping mall;
> - 15781 - Rannamoisa Road (T11390) in Tallinn. Yay for urban sprawl.
> - 14864 - T11 Tallinn bypass, traffic from Juri interchange to Juri village


 The 3rd one should be:
- 14899 - VIIMSI - RANDVERE (T11250). It has a 50km/h speed limit, so it is like an urban road.

T11 sections with high AADT will be reconstructed into 2x2 I class road by 2013. 
T11390 2,6–5,0 km should become 2x2 road with roundabouts and 70km/h speed limit soon (by 2012 I think).
T2 Tartu eastern bypass has financial problems.



> Just FYI, there is at least one exception that I know — road T2 within the town of Tartu belongs to the national road network. But indeed, there are no such cases in Tallinn.


 There are far more. The ones I can remember are: T1 in Sillamae, T5 in Paide, T11 in Tallinn, T4 (Partly) in Parnu.

The owner of the road is responsible for its maintenance, so local authorities are always happy to give away these roads. Here is an example: http://www.parnupostimees.ee/?id=382245



> It would be interesting to know the traffic densities on Tallinn's roads; it's a pity this data has not been collected. But I believe there are several ones that get an AADT considerably higher than 33 000. The T4, Järvevana tee and Liivalaia tn. for sure.


 It is collected. But it is very hard to find. Some data from 2007:
Endla tn - 80 720 
Järvevana tee - 69 620 
Tammsaare tee - 62 100
Pärnu maantee – 51 420 
Narva maantee - 49 910
Taken from here: http://www.tallinn.ee/g4169s38110


----------



## Alexriga

Fargo Wolf said:


> Kinda defeats the purpose of having an ice road, if the ferries operate year round.
> 
> I was just curious, as in northern Canada, if the ice road was closed to all vehicles, the only transport option, is by air (Not a big deal for the City of Yellowknife, now that the first EVER bridge has opened across the MacKenzie [spelling?] River).


no, ice road is fun


----------



## Grisent

Hasper said:


> It is collected. But it is very hard to find. Some data from 2007:
> Endla tn - 80 720
> Järvevana tee - 69 620
> Tammsaare tee - 62 100
> Pärnu maantee – 51 420
> Narva maantee - 49 910
> Taken from here: http://www.tallinn.ee/g4169s38110


That's an interesting find and a very good source. Thanks!


----------



## Grisent

Tallinn last weekend:


DSC_1442 by Grisent, on Flickr

Spring can't come fast enough


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hoping for some flooding?


----------



## Grisent

The real fun is reserved for pedestrians -- waddling in half-melted slush, with the off chance of getting soaked from head to toe by an inconsiderate driver. :storm:
Myself, I try to do my best to avoid causing that :angel:

Edit -- The countryside looks much nicer, though:


DSC_1422 by Grisent, on Flickr


----------



## Hasper

> Maanteeamet has apparently started tender for the Kroodi interchange, which is complementary to the currently under construction Loo-Maardu section.
> There doesn't seem to be any plans available yet, but afaik it should look something like this.


 Got my hands on the technical documentation for Kroodi interchange stage I construction. Here is the plan:
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7541/625trd5011cliikluskorra.png

The northern part, which didn't fit on the image above:


Only the interchange:


The construction of the new Kroodi interchange will require making some changes to Maardu interchange:
http://www.zshare.net/download/8774546377306af3/

I don't remember any plans for Vao interchange being published. So here it is:


----------



## Grisent

Nice, thanks. Some things I noticed:










The top right loop seems somewhat superfluous, isn't it? Yes, it is definitely a more convenient path than taking the lower right ramp and navigating through the roundabout. But, strangely, that is what the signage suggests.
Probably the signage is just a mistake and the loop will also be incorporated in the traffic scheme.










Um, the driver JUST exited the T94. Is it really necessary to complicate the signage and immediately show how to get back there?










This must be Estonia's first fully two-lane interchange ramp, I guess. Or the one in the opposite direction (from E20 towards T94), is that a two-lane ramp as well?










I am slightly unsure about such signage. What do you think, is it readable enough or is it overdesigned?


----------



## Rebasepoiss

And the ironic part is that nobody uses road numbers in Estonia  They're even absent from news reports.


----------



## Grisent

It is unlikely that a public habit of referring to road numbers would ever emerge, if even Road Administration avoids these like the plague. RA daily bulletins mention roads by their route description only.

Strange, because they are the ones paying for all the signage. With nice, prominently-featured road numbers. :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Road numbers will increase in importance, because of their use in navigation systems. Road numbers are much easier to display and comprehend than long street names, especially if you combine the GPS with road signage. Road signs are much better to read (in advance) than street name signs. The same can be said about exit numbers I guess. 

Every sizable country needs a numbering system. How do you know when there is a report about a traffic incident on "Tartu Road"? That could be on any road leading towards Tartu, especially since street names are usually far from unique.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ They usually just say: 'There was a traffic accident on Tallinn-Tartu highway km...' 
As Grisent mentioned, even on the Road Administration's web page they very rarely use road numbers in public announcements, mostly because ordinary people have no clue about road numbers. That's why it's a bit weird that on the newest signs they have gone mad with road numbers. There's even a directional sign in Tallinn that has only road numbers.

I know very few people that use a GPS in Estonia and even if they do, they follow the directions not road numbers. And there are no exit numbers in Estonia, simply because we have maybe 20km of limited-access highways all together.


----------



## Grisent

The transit route through Tallinn that links T1 / T2 with downtown ferry terminal, has received a few signage upgrades this summer:


----------



## Tin_Can

I'm sure that even with this signage some people still manage to get lost on their way to harbour  

Imho huge,billboard-style road signs are bit overkill for urban area...



Rebasepoiss said:


> I know very few people that use a GPS in Estonia and even if they do, they follow the directions not road numbers. And there are no exit numbers in Estonia, simply because we have maybe 20km of limited-access highways all together.


That's because for a long time there weren't any decent Estonian road maps for GPS. Only in recent years good GPS maps have started emerging and it takes time before GPS systems gain full popularity in Estonia.


----------



## Rombi

Grisent said:


> DSC_1433 by Grisent, on Flickr


This is simply great!
Tin_Can don't complain. Have you ever been in Poland? In my opinion we have a total massacre in road signs when it comes to layout information, the chaos of multicolored signs, clutter of unnecessary information. In my opinion we have the worst road marking system among all our neighbours except Russians.


----------



## PhirgataZFs1694

Grisent said:


>


What is this strange traffic light with 'S'(maybe "Stop"?)?

And "Attention!Ducks."?!:lol:


----------



## Uppsala

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> What is this strange traffic light with 'S'(maybe "Stop"?)?
> 
> And "Attention!Ducks."?!:lol:


Traffic lights only for busses and trams. And S means Stop. Look here.


----------



## PhirgataZFs1694

I haven't seen a traffic light for both bus and trams. We have this only for trams:








But no special lights for buses.

So how does it work?
My guess:
Vertical line means go forward.
Arrow-follow the arrow.
S-Stop.

And what about horizontal dash?
-Stop?
-Get ready?
-Every direction you want?


----------



## Uppsala

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> I haven't seen a traffic light for both bus and trams. We have this only for trams:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But no special lights for buses.
> 
> So how does it work?
> My guess:
> Vertical line means go forward.
> Arrow-follow the arrow.
> S-Stop.
> 
> And what about horizontal dash?
> -Stop?
> -Get ready?
> -Every direction you want?


Here you can see how they are working:

This one means the same like red. S means the same like red on a normal traffic light.



















Here you can se red and horizontal dash means the same like red and yellow.



















And here you can see this means the same like green



















Only horizontal dash means the same like only yellow. And thats normal before it's red again.



















I hope you understand this signals better now?


----------



## PhirgataZFs1694

Thank you very much. So I was really close


----------



## Tin_Can

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> And "Attention!Ducks."?!:lol:


We also have those :


Tin_Can said:


> ... "Squirrels!"


In fact,those squirrel signs are close to duck signs (maybe about 1-2km from that junction on Grisent's photo) It actually makes sense,as on both sides of the road is a large park and occasionally small critters like to cross the road...


----------



## PhirgataZFs1694

I guess there are fresh water lakes in those parks too, but have you seen a duck on the road?:lol:


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Actually that's a sign for birds in general. The road is very close to the sea there and people like to feed swans in that location.


----------



## Hasper

Liiapeksi - Loobu (E20) stretch will open this Monday! :banana:


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## RipleyLV

Hasper said:


> Liiapeksi - Loobu (E20) stretch will open this Monday! :banana:


New stretch of 1st class highway?


----------



## Tin_Can

Has anyone noticed that on small E67 section starting few km outside Tallinn border and ending with Kanama cloverleaf junction,has been repaved (again)? 
So,right now E67 from Tallinn to Kanama has super smooth road surface...

And that over the previous years roadway lights have been installed until Kanama?
Although roadway lights aren't that uncommon,other road sections with them (E263,for example) don't have comparable road quality.
It makes you wonder...

:shifty:










*?*




_____________________
Anyway,few photos of U/C interchange just outside Risti borough borders in Läänemaa (about 30km from Haapsalu on T9,to be more precise - T9 kilometres 38,85-39,32) Deadline is in 7th November. 

On direction heading to Haapsalu.




































On direction heading to Tallinn.


----------



## Wover

The last two weeks I've had a vacation and have been driving around 1500km in Estonia. Generally, road quality is good, roadworks progress nicely and some new stretches or interchanges are very time-saving.

But yesterday I encountered something very very stupid on the very recently (maybe anyone knows the exact date) opened interchange from road 93 to road 2/E20 near Kohtla-Järve.










I came from Kohtla-Järve, so I entered the map in the middle left. Then I followed signage to Tallinn, which took me to a right exit, then passing under the bridge right next to road 2 towards Tallinn, but then for no obvious reason at all, the road turns away again and you have to drive 500m and turn at a roundabout to get to the only ramp to the highway...

Why didn't they build a proper ramp at the location where you're right next to road 2?? What was the point of building all this new road?


----------



## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> New stretch of 1st class highway?


It's an old stretch of 2x2 highway that has now been reconstructed. I don't think that it's quite up to Ist class road standards, though.

---------------------------------

I made a small tour in Läänemaa on Saturday. Here's a few photos of it.

Route:http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=T...ViAMdsHlsAQ&mra=dpe&mrsp=2&sz=14&via=1,2&z=10

On T9, exiting Haapsalu.


















The first of three roundabouts









The second roundabout, which a turbo roundabout.













































Then we turned off to T17. 


















At Linnamäe we turned to T11230, Riguldi/Rickul-bound. This stretch is between Linnamäe and Riguldi. This area has bilingual signs for every village because until WW2, the majority of people here were Swedish-speaking.













































This stretch is between Riguldi and Nõva.









The road quality is surprisingly good. The road atlas from 2008 that we used shows this road as a gravel road.



























This stretch is between Nõva and Vihterpalu.









The road surface is even smoother than before but it lacks road markings.



























After that it got a bit too dark to take decent photos.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tin_Can said:


> Are you ready to heard the bad news? ...although some parts of new route will be built sooner,main construction could proceed from 2040 onward.... :cripes:


Good to see they're planning 10 consecutive government terms ahead :lol:

Seriously, it's completely unknown in democracies what future government will spend on which projects. Some of it is planned in agreements, but man, not 30 years ahead in time...


----------



## Rebasepoiss

ssh said:


> That's not all too terrible. I could live half the road being the way it is now, but Tallinn's half needs work badly. *When could expansion of the current 2+2 stretch be expected?*


Aruvalla-Kose section is already U/C. Kose-Mäo section probably won't be built before 2020.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Good to see they're planning 10 consecutive government terms ahead :lol:
> 
> Seriously, it's completely unknown in democracies what future government will spend on which projects. Some of it is planned in agreements, but man, not 30 years ahead in time...


The purpose of this plan is to ensure that within the 650m wide corridor no new houses would be built. It's only the route that's being planned, not the highway project itself. The 2040 estimation is most probably based on the projected AADT...which I doubt will ever be high enough to require a 2x2 highway.


----------



## Tin_Can

Maybe the traffic density isn't high enough,but improving road safety would certainly be decisive,when considering upgrading Tallinn-Tartu highway to 2+2 highway. Atleast some multilevel junctions,shortcuts and sections of 2+2 road are needed,even when the full upgrading is considered useless. 

Btw,wasting hundreds of millions of euros is justified,as long as it saves lives (saved human life = priceless).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Tin_Can said:


> Btw,wasting hundreds of millions of euros is justified,as long as it saves lives (saved human life = priceless).


There are actually some morbid calculations about what a human life is worth in terms of traffic safety. I don't know the exact figure, but I believe it was € 2.5 - 2.8 million.


----------



## mcarling

Tin_Can said:


> Btw,wasting hundreds of millions of euros is justified,as long as it saves lives (saved human life = priceless).





ChrisZwolle said:


> There are actually some morbid calculations about what a human life is worth in terms of traffic safety. I don't know the exact figure, but I believe it was € 2.5 - 2.8 million.


It's actually neither very difficult nor immoral to place an approximate price on what human life is worth. Oversimplifying, the question to ask is how many lives could be saved by spending the money on something else, for example, cancer research or better sanitation. If the new road (or whatever else is being evaluated) would save more lives per unit of money spent than the alternatives, then it's a morally good way to spend the money. If the road would save fewer lives per unit of money spent than an alternative, then the road cannot be justified on a moral basis (though it may be justifiable on some other basis). In this way, it's not so difficult to put an approximate price on the value of human life.

Looked at another way, we have limited resources so we can't do all the possible things that might save lives. We can only choose among the options and save as many lives as possible by making the most effective choices.


----------



## kapo311

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are actually some morbid calculations about what a human life is worth in terms of traffic safety. I don't know the exact figure, but I believe it was € 2.5 - 2.8 million.


It may be that figure in Holland, and maybe it is even higher in Scandinavia, but it sure as hell isn't so in Estonia. Sorry to say that, but it is true.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

mcarling said:


> Looked at another way, we have limited resources so we can't do all the possible things that might save lives. We can only choose among the options and save as many lives as possible by making the most effective choices.


What you didn't address is that you can't use the national road budget money in health care, for example, and vice-versa. In Estonia, the national health insurance budget is financially independent of the rest of the state budget.



kapo311 said:


> It may be that figure in Holland, and maybe it is even higher in Scandinavia, but it sure as hell isn't so in Estonia. Sorry to say that, but it is true.


By 2006 figures a human life is worth € 740,000 in Estonia, the "cost" for a disabled person is € 850,000.


----------



## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> What you didn't address is that you can't use the national road budget money in health care, for example, and vice-versa. In Estonia, the national health insurance budget is financially independent of the rest of the state budget.


How much money to allocate to the road budget and how much to the health care budget is a political question that may be better informed by the risk/risk analysis introduced above.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ There is a separate health care tax in Estonia so no, it is not a political decision, unless you change the taxes.


----------



## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> ... unless you change the taxes.


That's a political decision. Anyway, we're straying away from roads.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Yesterday the contract for the Jõhvi traffic junction was made. The project includes 2 new 246m viaducts at the spot of the old viaduct and 2 turbo-roundabouts at both ends (BTW, this is the first time I've seen the word "turboringristmik" in an Estonian press release  ) The cost is € 10.3 million and the deadline is autumn 2013. The project is 100% EU funded.


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## ssh

Rebasepoiss said:


> "turboringristmik"


haha, sounds bad-ass


----------



## Rebasepoiss

The deadline for the T1/E20 Loo-Maardu section has been postponed to June 2012.


----------



## Grisent

Renovations of T11340 Tallinn-Saku road were finished this summer. (In July, I believe — if the works were completed on time.)

I think there haven't been any photos yet, so I recently took a couple of shots. Lighting was remarkably bad (low sun, strong counterlight) but road features should be still recognizable.

AADT 2010: ~5700.





1. Road number as it is typically signposted just after town limits.



2. That's correct, the road to the right is prohibited for all traffic (and yet it has a right turn lane, an ADS and at least 3 traffic signs dedicated to it). Never seen that before.  Although— I must say it kinda makes sense to build the intersection and signpost it, just in case the road may be opened up sometime in the future.



3. A few kilometres in, the road splits into two carriageways and gains a median. This stretch is illuminated as well. There are no longer any left turns here — instead, there's a U-turn loop at both ends.



4. Separated carriageways begin here. 



5. That's the first U-turn loop.



6. The road is basically 2x1, but with right turn and merge lanes.



7. Accompanying footpaths / light traffic roads are becoming more and more commonplace, nice.



8. 



9. And _more_ road number signposting.



10. The other U-turn loop.



11. Approaching T11 (E265) Tallinn bypass. For comparison, here's the previous ADS that on the exact same spot before:


DSC_9707 by Grisent, on Flickr



12. Tammemäe junction feels more spacious and opened up than before.



13. T11 overpass and second half of the junction coming up.



14.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Wow!, there really is an 80 km/h speed limit.  I had a hard time believing it when my friend told me about it. Thanks for the photos, by the way, it looks like a nice road.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Today, the Estonian Road Administration held a small press conference about works done in 2011 while giving a brief overview of what's to come in 2012.

2011:
Budget: € 250 million
Average age of pavement for:
Main highways: 13 years
Supporting highways: 25 years
Other state roads: 21 years.
(While the goal is 15 years for the last 2)
The reason why main highways are in a vastly better condition is because we can use EU money for their reconstruction while other roads have to be reconstructed/rebuilt using only the money from the state budget.
Building and repairing surfaced roads: 273km
Paving gravel roads: 222km
Surfacing roads: 994km
Repairing gravel roads: 332km
Building light-traffic roads and sidewalks: 71km

2012: 
Budget: € 265 million
Biggest projects starting or continuing in 2012:
Väo interchange ( T1/E20 - T11/E265): http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidplaneeringud/Rahu_tee_dp_DP020320154451.pdf
Topi interchange (T4/E67): http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidplaneeringud/Topi_AP_ja_liikluskorraldus.pdf
Luige interchange (T11/E265 - T15)
Pärnu bypass
Tartu Western bypass (including Variku viaduct and Postimaja intersection): 
Viitna bypass
Jõhvi interchange: http://www.mnt.ee/public/skeem2.pdf


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting figures. What's the difference between paving gravel roads and surfacing roads?


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Surfacing (maybe there's a better term) means that you cover a paved road with a thin layer of bitumen and granite rubble. It's a cheap method for repairing a pavement. The downside is that it makes the road less smooth and the ride a lot noisier. It also doesn't last very long.
It looks something like this, although usually the whole road is covered:









A similar method is mostly used to repave gravel roads which means that the road bed remains untouched. A huge majority of road beds in Estonia are from the Soviet era and often poorly planned and built. For example, when the Vaida-Aruvalla section of T2/E263 was reconstructed, they found out that the old road bed had been built over a metre thick layer of bog peat....no wonder that roads like that don't last. The planned Kose-Mäo section of T2 also runs through a bog so in some places 1,5 metres of bog peat have to be removed before they can build the road bed.


----------



## khoojyh

nice


----------



## Rebasepoiss

A few photos of the ongoing Ülemiste junction construction in Tallinn:

Digging the tunnel under the railway (the temporary railway line is on the right):


















Entrance for the U/C pedestrian tunnel (I wonder how long it will take before graffiti appears here).









_Photos are from www.postimees.ee_


----------



## strandeed

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> I thank God that has created estonian people to fulfill my dreams - first e-gov and now abandoning petrol fueled cars and popularising electric ones.
> 
> Huge respect!kay:


Something which is not necessary and which Estonia can not afford.


----------



## mcarling

strandeed said:


> Something which is not necessary and which Estonia can not afford.


You're right. Also, cold climates are the dumbest places for electric cars.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Well, we don't pay for any of it so...worth taking a shot!


----------



## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> Well, we don't pay for any of it so...worth taking a shot!


Of course you pay for it, just not directly. You pay for it through higher taxes, which makes it more expensive than if you paid for it directly because you have to pay the parasitic bureaucrats as well.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^No, you don't understand. All these electric cars, recharging stations etc. were paid for the money received from selling CO2 quotas to Mitsubishi. No tax money goes into this project.


----------



## mcarling

^^
That money and tax money are absolutely fungible. It could have been used for something good, like roads, public transport, reforestation, education, etc. Or taxes could have been reduced. It's just being squandered.


----------



## Wover

It has also been used for public transport. 110 buses were bought with it.

Also, you can only use the money on "green" initiatives.

Reforestation in a land with 50% woods is not really an issue and the other areas you name cannot be funded with this money.

Some government and other public buildings are being made more energy efficient though, so some schools might benefit from it as well.

Trust me, there's nothing that could have been done better, and I'm proud of the Estonian government for using the money so wisely.

Despite that there are still other issues though, such as the further development of energy production with oil shale...


----------



## Rebasepoiss

mcarling said:


> ^^
> That money and tax money are absolutely fungible. It could have been used for something good, like roads, public transport, reforestation, education, etc. Or taxes could have been reduced. It's just being squandered.


The seller of CO2 quotas has the right to dictate the conditions. Mitsubishi's offer was 500 Mitsubishi Mievs for social workers + a recharging network covering the whole country + subsidies for 500 electric cars for private buyers. The government's option was to take that offer or not. Would've it been a smarter choice to just say no? I doubt it.

Estonia has managed to sell more CO2 quotas than any other country, a total of € 360 million's worth. (Mind you, the 2012 state budget is only € 6.6 billion) As Wover mentioned, this includes many other projects like: 
- insulating 480 state owned buildings (schools, local government buildings, libraries etc.)
- providing a subsidy system for insulating apartment buildings (€ 30 million)
- building wind farms (€ 19 million)
- building power plants that use renewable energy or converting old ones
- renovating central heating pipes in 34 towns and villages in Estonia
- buying 110 new buses out of which a 13 are hybrid or CNG buses. (€ 25 million)
- buying 15-16 new trams for Tallinn + reconstructing the tracks of tram line no.4 (€ 45 million)


----------



## strandeed

The whole C02 quota system is fundamentally flawed and hugely corrupt.

Suits the world of politics just fine then


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Of course it's flawed but you can't blame us for using this system to our advantage.

Although I don't see why you think it's corrupt.


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## strandeed

http://toryaardvark.com/2010/05/15/climategate-the-global-corruption-of-the-carbon-trading-scam/

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/07/23/corruption-in-the-carbon-trading-market/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jan/23/carbon-trading-scheme-security-delay

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ These are all very different cases from our's but well...you can have corruption everywhere so there's probably no point in arguing over it.


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## mcarling

I don't blame Estonia for participating in the CO2 scheme. I do blame Estonia for choosing the Mitsubishi offer. There were other offers available better suited to a cold climate.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ All possible offers were taken. It's not like we ran out of CO2 quotas to sell.


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## jkk

KredEx has reveiled the detailed planning of fast charging stations in Estonia










"Fast charging stations will be placed on highways with higher density of traffic and in all cities and towns with at least 5000 inhabitants. The distance between highway charging stations will be approximately 40-60 km."

There are a total of 160 fast charging stations. About 100 of them are situated in cities and 60 on highways. Also, more locations may be added until April 30th.

Bigger cities:
Tallinn 27 charging stations
Tartu 10
Pärnu 4
Narva 2


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ And on Google maps: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...25.105938&spn=2.3434,7.13562&t=m&source=embed

The cost of building this network - € 6.6 million.


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## PhirgataZFs1694

strandeed said:


> Something which is not necessary and which Estonia can not afford.


Unneccessary? Why are ecological transportation and reduction of importance of imported petrol and gas unneccessary in your opinion?


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## mcarling

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> Unneccessary? Why are ecological transportation and reduction of importance of imported petrol and gas unneccessary in your opinion?


Ecological? Seriously? Electricity production in Estonia is based overwhelmingly on oil shale, which is much less ecologically friendly than burning petrol in cars. 

In 2002, about 97% of air pollution, 86% of total waste and 23% of water pollution in Estonia came from the power industry, which uses oil shale as the main resource for its power production.

Source: http://www.kirj.ee/public/oilshale/1_ed_page_2004_1.pdf


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## Trilesy

Here is a recent photo of a charging station in Estonia. 









Courtesy of http://www.hamersintartu.com/


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Just to clarify, that is a regular charging point and not a fast-chargin station.


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## ssh

I still find it absolutely incredible that a country like Estonia does something like this. A fast charging station on Muhu island? Awesome.


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## PhirgataZFs1694

mcarling said:


> Ecological? Seriously? Electricity production in Estonia is based overwhelmingly on oil shale, which is much less ecologically friendly than burning petrol in cars.
> 
> In 2002, about 97% of air pollution, 86% of total waste and 23% of water pollution in Estonia came from the power industry, which uses oil shale as the main resource for its power production.
> 
> Source: http://www.kirj.ee/public/oilshale/1_ed_page_2004_1.pdf


And? Electricity can be produced with no or very little ecological impact.

What about zero deposits of oil in Estonia and dependence on import of oil?


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## mcarling

PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> And? Electricity can be produced with no or very little ecological impact.


Yes, electricity can be produced with very little ecological impact, but the only option for cleanly meeting Estonia's electricity needs is nuclear, which is politically unpopular due to the mediocre safety record of 2nd generation nuclear plants.



PhirgataZFs1694 said:


> What about zero deposits of oil in Estonia and dependence on import of oil?


Estonia produces oil, but not enough to meet domestic needs.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Actually, Estonia will participate in the Lithuanian NPP project and our share will be around 300MW. Besides, next year Estonia will fully join the Nord Pool electric energy market and by 2014 the construction of Estlink 2 cable between Estonia and Finland will be finished, creating a 1000MW connection (together with Estlink 1) between Estonia and Finland. This will create the opportunity to buy electricity from several different sources. 

BTW, those who receive the € 18,000 state support for buying an electric car are obliged to only use green electricity to charge their cars.


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## Pansori

What is the total average electricity power demand of Estonia in MW?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ At the current moment: Saturday evening, mild winter weather: 1050 MW
http://elering.ee/en/

And I found the news saying that last year renewable energy covered 13% of Estonia's electricity consumption: http://elering.ee/renewable-energy-reached-almost-13-of-estonian-consumption/

Anyways, this is getting way off-topic. So we'd better stop and return to discussing topics actually connected to roads and highways in Estonia.


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## ChrisZwolle

Any chance that bridge to Saaremaa will be constructed? I've read an environmental report about it, but then not much more. Apparently it is cheaper to construct a toll bridge than to continue to subsidize the ferries.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ It's a neverending battle between economical viability and environmental concerns. But some sort of decision should come from the government in the Ist quarter of 2012 so very soon.


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## Rebasepoiss

Props to Tin_Can for the updates 


Tin_Can said:


> Small photo update of *Ülemiste road junction construction.* First set of viaduct support pillars has been completed next to Tartu mnt.





Tin_Can said:


> Photo update of *Ülemiste road junction construction.* They've started filling tunnel sides & covering tunnels with soil. And catenary posts have been erected between Viadukti street and Ülemiste tunnels. There's also some wierd tunnel thingy U/C next to warehouses on Viadukti street. Can't remember that from detail plans...
> 
> Ditch has been dug through main railway dam further North of tunnels. Some water pipes and sewers are being built there. View from pedestrian crossing next to Filtri road. *Click on the photo for larger view.*
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> You can see new catenary posts on the right - that's where the main railway line is located. Considering the work speed,traffic should be redirected back to main railway in May or in some time after that...


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## Hasper

Road construction map for this year:








Bigger version:
http://www.mnt.ee/public/2012_remondiobjektid.pdf
List:
http://www.mnt.ee/public/Koopia_failist_Suuremate_objektide_nimekiri_2012_.xlsx

Construction of Juuliku interchange, Kurna interchange and Väo-Jüri section of Tallinn ring road wont start before 2014.

Looks like Väo interchange construction wont start this year. Solution proposed by Tallinn authorities (this one: http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidplaneeringud/Rahu_tee_dp_DP020320154451.pdf) was said to be unsafe and too confusing for drivers, as the project was funded by a gas station owner, who pursued his own interest.

Kroodi interchange, stage 2 plans are available:
http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidplaneeringud/625T-RD1-021-situatsiooniplaan.pdf



> Any chance that bridge to Saaremaa will be constructed?


Nope. No money for it.


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## Rebasepoiss

Hasper said:


> Looks like Väo interchange construction wont start this year. Solution proposed by Tallinn authorities (this one: http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidplaneeringud/Rahu_tee_dp_DP020320154451.pdf) was said to be unsafe and too confusing for drivers, as the project was funded by a gas station owner, who pursued his own interest.


For crying out loud! Let's make a decent project for an interchange, then change it, then decide that the new version is unsafe and start working on another version. The f**k, really?! I have a feeling that this interchange won't be built before 2016 which is especially stupid since it was first planned to be opened in 2010 and now that Iru-Maardu section is completed, the lack of a proper intersection at T11 - T1 really shows.

It's fairly obvious, though, that construction won't start on other interchanges on Tallinn bypass since Luige interchange is already eating up quite a big chunk of finances. AFAIK, they are planning to develop Tallinn bypass step-by-step which practically means a new interchange every 3 years.


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## ChrisZwolle

Hasper said:


> Nope. No money for it.


That's the advantage of a toll facility, it's independent of the government budget.


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## Rebasepoiss

Estonian Road Administration is considering setting up an average speed check system based on the current (and future) speed cameras. Although this system is already being used in several other countries, the Estonian solution would be unique since it would implemented on regular 2x1 highways. A thorough analysis is currently being made to find out whether this sytem is suitable for Estonian road and traffic conditions. Some laws would also have to be changed in order to introduce this system.

(In Estonian): http://www.postimees.ee/776980/kaam...hutamine-ei-pruugi-tulevikus-trahvist-paasta/


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## ChrisZwolle

The Netherlands has section control on three non-motorways (1x2 lanes).


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ OK. But I guess these roads are limited-access and grade separated?


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## ChrisZwolle

We have three of them;

* N256 Zeeland Bridge, 1x2, no intersections, about 5 km
* N381 Wijnjewoude - Donkerbroek, 1x2 lanes, regular road, 5 km
* N919 Veenhuizen, 1x2 lanes, regular road, 3 km, reportedly inactive

So they do exist on regular two-lane roads, although not directly in urbanized areas.


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## Wover

In Belgium there are a few that cross villages even .


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## ssh

Rebasepoiss said:


> (In Estonian): http://www.postimees.ee/776980/kaam...hutamine-ei-pruugi-tulevikus-trahvist-paasta/


The comments are funny. Nobody wants to say they enjoy constant speeding, so they blame the government for being a money-grubbing scumbag. Real classy.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Not that I support their opinion but...often it actually is the case. Just last Sunday when driving from Tallinn to Tartu I saw 2 police patrols (catching speeders) and both of them were on the dual carriageway part, even though the weather was clear and the road dry. If that's not collecting money then I really don't know what it is. Mäo bypass is the safest place to overtake slow drivers on this highway and that's where the police decide to measure speed. Last year I saw the police measuring speed on a dual carriageway 2 days before the speed limit was raised from 90km/h to 110km/h. I really really would like to see variable speed limits in Estonia, at least on dual carriageways. It's absurd to be forced to drive 90km/h on a 2x2 highway when its 15C and sunny outside.

I can accept average speed cameras IF they implement this sytem on rather long stretches of highway, otherwise nobody will dare to overtake trucks or other slow cars any more.


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## Wover

Only time I was caught in Estonia (and pulled over) was when I drove 111 on a stretch of 90kph 100m before a sign increasing the speed to 110kph...

This discussion however is about speed cameras and the ones that are on Tartu maantee are quite well placed in my opinion, mostly in dangerous spots.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Yes, I agree, but turning these cameras into average speed cameras would change quite a bit. I'm not myself capable of giving a conclusive answer to whether this is a good idea or not but I feel there are more disadvantages than advantages.


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## maqzi

Topi eritasandilise ristmiku ehitushange lõppeb 9. aprillil. Võrreldes eelprojektiga on lahendust natuke muudetud, kuna tegemist on I ehitusjärjekorraga.








Võrdluseks eelprojekt


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## Maadeuurija

:rant:normaalne, milleks neil vaja ära jätta üks eritasandiline riste ja eraldi ramp Tallinna suunas :bash:


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## maqzi

Esimene ehitusjärk viitab sellele, et seda päris ära ei jäeta, lihtsalt ehitatakse välja hiljem. Praegu ju tegelikult ei vii see ristmik kuhugi, eelprojekti mahus ehitatakse see tõenäoliselt välja siis, kui juuliku-tabasalu on valmis, valmis vähemalt 1+1. Tallinna poolse viadukti all on jäetud ruumi, et eelprojektiga planeeritud lisa mahasõit ära mahuks. Lisan siia originaal joonised ja kui kellelgi huvi võin hanke dokumentide ja tehnilise projekti lingi pm-iga saata.
http://speedy.sh/8JSVe/Topi.rar


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## mcarling

Guys, this is an English language forum.


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## Rebasepoiss

Translation: The procurement for Topi interchange ends on 9 April. The upper scheme is the one that will be built at first. The bottom one is the pre-project. Since there is currently no road leading to the left (North-West) from that intersection, there would be no practical purpose for building a grade-separated intersection there.


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## maqzi

Tartu highway km 4,21 - 5,85 Vana-Tartu mnt - Tähnase tee:

http://speedy.sh/UVdYE/Moigu.pdf

Tallinn bypass km 0,6 – 11,3 Väo-Jüri section:

http://speedy.sh/Sgjeb/Vao-Juri.rar


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## romanzone

*Ministry of Economic Affairs and Communications plans 2+1 highways building*

First stretch would be on E67 Tallinn-Pärnu between Ääsmäe and Kernu (just after 2+2 ends...)

http://uudised.err.ee/index.php?06250025


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## Maadeuurija

About fucking time :cheers:


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## mcarling

romanzone said:


> *Ministry of Economic Affairs and Communications plans 2+1 highways building*
> 
> First stretch would be on E67 Tallinn-Pärnu between Ääsmäe and Kernu (just after 2+2 ends...)


I've often driven the Via Baltica. In my opinion, all of Tallinn-Pärnu should be at least 2+1. The section between Ääsmäe and Kernu is the right place to start. I hope they do it in a way that allows for easy upgrading to 2x2 later.


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## romanzone

mcarling said:


> The section between Ääsmäe and Kernu is the right place to start. I hope they do it in a way that allows for easy upgrading to 2x2 later.


I'm not sure about "easy upgrading", because 2x2 needs significantly more space than 2+1. Also, they didn't mention possible collector roads and multi-level junctions.


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## mcarling

romanzone said:


> I'm not sure about "easy upgrading", because 2x2 needs significantly more space than 2+1. Also, they didn't mention possible collector roads and multi-level junctions.


The overpasses at multi-level junctions could be built to accommodate a future 2x2 road. Also, the right-of-way could be acquired with sufficient width to accommodate a 2x2 road, or at least a block could be placed on development that would interfere with a future upgrade.

A roadbed wide enough for 2+1 with 3.5 meter lanes and one hard shoulder along the right-hand side in each direction could in the future support two 3.75 meter lanes with a wider hard shoulder on both the right and left-hand sides. A new roadbed (hopefully separated by some space) would be needed for the other direction.

I'm skeptical about whether the Riga-Pärnu section of the Via Baltica will ever need more than 2+1. However, I believe that Tallinn-Pärnu and Riga-Warsaw will eventually need to be 2x2 (maybe not Bauska-Pasvalys). Of course, there are higher priorities now, both in Estonia and throughout the Baltics.


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## ChrisZwolle

Traffic volumes south of Pärnu are very low, even as low as just over 2.000 vehicles near the Latvian border.


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## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> Traffic volumes south of Pärnu are very low, even as low as just over 2.000 vehicles near the Latvian border.


Yes, that's why I wrote that I don't think that section will ever need to be 2x2. However, we should keep in mind that internal EU borders still often represent a high barrier to travel insofar as language barriers remain. As more and more Europeans learn English, internal EU borders will decreasingly impede transborder travel.


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## Rebasepoiss

An update on Ülemiste interchange.


Tin_Can said:


> Photo update of *Ülemiste road junction tunnels construction*.
> 
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## maqzi

Luige interchange:














































*Click on the photo for larger view.*


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## maqzi

Luige interchange:





































*Click on the photo for larger view.*











Pedestrian bridge under construction



























*Click on the photo for larger view.*


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## Tin_Can

^^
Great photos! kay: I can't believe how much that area has changed recently. Only one photo has familiar places,what I still remember :shocked:


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## Rebasepoiss

Due to the increasing number of traffic casualties, the government has decided NOT to raise the speed limits to 100km/h on the better 2-lane highways this year (last year we had 650km of 2-lane highways with a raised speed limit).


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## ChrisZwolle

Is that move actually based on some good arguments? I.e. are these sections the most problematic / dangerous to raise? 

It sounds similar to the rhetoric in the Netherlands that traffic fatalities will increase sharply if the speed limit would be raised from 120 to 130, completely ignoring only 4% of the traffic fatalities actually occur on these specific roads. 

A lot of rationale is thrown away when discussions about traffic safety occur.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The whole thing is BS. Most accidents that happen because of speeding (over here, at least) are cause by lunatics driving way faster than the allowed speed limit. Lowering the speed limit doesn't prevent that.

In fact, the recent data about speed cameras showed that they have had absolutely no impact on the number of accidents.

It's just a desperate move to show that the government is doing something about the problem, IMO.


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## Hasper

1) Some time ago I have posted traffic density in Tallinn in 2007. Here are the values for 2010 (taken from some enviroment report from 2011):
Maximal hourly traffic density (during rush hour), minimal hourly traffic density (during rush hour) and AADT. 









2) Also there were questions about Viitna bypass connection to existing road. Here you go. The latest solution:




3) A bit of Tallinn projects. Jarvevana - Tehnika connection street:




> For crying out loud! Let's make a decent project for an interchange, then change it, then decide that the new version is unsafe and start working on another version. The f**k, really?! I have a feeling that this interchange won't be built before 2016 which is especially stupid since it was first planned to be opened in 2010 and now that Iru-Maardu section is completed, the lack of a proper intersection at T11 - T1 really shows.


 Actually, Estonian road administration has no idea what to do with it yet. They are still thinking. But if they to get rid of Olerex and remove a couple of unneeded ramps, this would make it cheaper, easier to navigate and safer. The only question left, is that would it handle the traffic, AFAIK 2004 report, showed that the previous solution was the only possible one. 
Interchanges are build for years, so they should have as minimum flows as possible. What badly designed interchange can do, we see in Mao. Yet another accident has happened there.



> The whole thing is BS. Most accidents that happen because of speeding (over here, at least) are cause by lunatics driving way faster than the allowed speed limit. Lowering the speed limit doesn't prevent that.
> 
> In fact, the recent data about speed cameras showed that they have had absolutely no impact on the number of accidents.
> 
> It's just a desperate move to show that the government is doing something about the problem, IMO.


 Cameras had effect! :lol: You can clearly see a rise in the accident rate, after cameras have been installed.
You have a problem, that during the last 2 years, the death rate on Estonia roads has increased by more than 130%. How do you suggest to improve safety?
Most likely we are going to have a new money spending policy on roads. So no more huge projects. It is going to be more in km, but more simple and cheaper. 2+1 roads are one of the possibilities. But if this road will be build as 2+1, don't expect it to be upgraded to 2+2 in the next 30 years minimum.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The number of police patrols on the road has rapidly decreased over the past few years and due to the high fuel prices even the existing patrols are limited in mileage. I'm very certain that this plays a huge roll in the increasing number of accidents.

Back in 2007 we had an even more serious traffic fatalities issue. Then the solution was to bring more patrols to the streets and highways and it helped. Estonian drivers aren't civilised enough (yet) to behave themselves when they're not being watched. Police patrols have a far larger psychological effect on drivers, IMO, than speed cameras or other electronic traffic control measures.

The government also has to face the truth that our infrastructure also plays a huge role in this. Most settlements even along busy highways have no dedicated pedestrian/bicycle roads, there are very few under and overpasses for pedestrians, there are way too few grade separated intersections, only the newest 2x2 highways are limited access etc.


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## Wover

One thing that annoys me about Estonian drivers (in general) is the following: Let's say there's a cyclist on the road and there is a need to move on the other lane to pass him. A group of 4 cars in a row approaches the cyclist and the first one can clearly see him, but the ones behind him can't. Still, the first one usually waits until the last moment to overtake this cyclist, meaning that the car behind him only has a few seconds to check if there's no oncoming traffic and plan his move, creating a very dangerous situation...

I've had this two days ago and I was a car coming in the other direction. The old military truck which was in the situation of suddenly having to come to my lane luckily had enough braking power to not hit the cyclist and luckily I saw the situation in time as well and moved on the grass next to the road a bit to give room.


And then the issue about not raising the speed limits: The reason I heard was that raising speed limits would give a wrong signal that with limited increase in speed you can get somewhere faster, thus maybe causing drivers to drive faster on other roads as well.

That reasoning I can more or less understand.


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## ChrisZwolle

Has the Main Road 1 project around Viitna already finished?


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## Wover

Last time I passed there (2 weeks ago) the works seemed to be quite advanced already, with most pavement already in place. I think median works, painting and signage are still remaining.


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## vatse

Google street view covers now Estonia and Latvia


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## Maadeuurija

luckily my lawn was just mowed in time


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## romanzone

ChrisZwolle said:


> Has the Main Road 1 project around Viitna already finished?


*E20 Viitna bypass should be ready by the end of July.*

http://www.virumaateataja.ee/841776 (article about roadworks in Lääne-Viru county)

Next stages of project include renovation of roads passing through Viitna, and reconstruction of Loobu-Valgejõe stretch (about 7 km) in the direction of Tallinn.

Works are going on at *Haljala intersection* (another big project on E20) and should be ready by January 2013. These include reconstruction of 3,5 km long stretch into 2+2 highway, building two viaducts over E20 and one pedestrian tunnel.


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## Xmaster

romanzone said:


> *E20 Viitna bypass should be ready by the end of July.*
> 
> http://www.virumaateataja.ee/841776 (article about roadworks in Lääne-Viru county)
> 
> Next stages of project include renovation of roads passing through Viitna, and reconstruction of Loobu-Valgejõe stretch (about 7 km) in the direction of Tallinn.
> 
> Works are going on at *Haljala intersection* (another big project on E20) and should be ready by January 2013. These include reconstruction of 3,5 km long stretch into *2+2 expressway*, building two viaducts over E20 and one pedestrian tunnel.


Is it going to be the first expressway status road stretch in Estonia?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ No. There is no such thing as an expressway in Estonian road legislation. The official name is I class road but it has no restrictions as to which vehicles are allowed to use it.


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## Tin_Can

Photo update on *Loo-Maardu section on E20*,just outside Tallinn borders. It will be officially opened in next month.

The asphalt...it is so smooth and the crashbarriers...they are so shiny! :happy:













































*Click on the photo for larger view.*


Feeder road linking Saha tee to E20 heading towards East.









*Click on the photo for larger view.*


*Click on the photo for larger view.*


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The first and only public road tunnel in Estonia , although next year we will get an addition to that by the 320m tunnel at Ülemiste junction.


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## romanzone

^^ Nice photos! I wonder if they gonna put a "tunnel" sign?

Btw, there are several road tunnels in Estonia, but they are not available to the general public. For example, KUMU service road tunnel in Tallinn, and road tunnel in Port of Sillamäe.

And, if I remember correctly, Ülemiste junction tunnel will be 320m long.


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## Road_UK

Impressed with Estonia. It very much reminds me of Finland, but still has that little Russian chunk of atmosphere. Very nice roads as well. Latvia seems to be a bit more on the developing side, while I hated every minute of being in Lithuania...


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## Tin_Can

I've been in the KUMU art museum service tunnel and maybe it's just a visual illusion (KUMU tunnel is narrower),but I've got an impression that Loo-Maardu tunnel is a lot shorter than KUMU tunnel.

Btw,technically speaking,Ülemiste junction gets two tunnels (with different lengths) - one for either driving direction. Tunnels have few metres of space between and afaik,they aren't connected to each other.


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## ssh

Arriving to Tallinn from Narva really feels good now. Right until you actually cross the city border.


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## Hasper

This week Viitna bypass (E20) will be partly open for traffic!









New images of the *Haljala interchange (E20) *from Estonian road administration (made 27.04.2012):

Rest here: http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=18012


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## Rebasepoiss

A new web page was recently launced called Tark Tee or "Smart road". tarktee.mnt.ee It features tons of information about our road network such as road works, detours, decreased or increased speed limits, road cameras and weather stations etc. It's also available in English so check it out!


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## sebi23ro

massive works there


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## romanzone

http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=20771 - few photos from the beginning of June.

Btw, I drove there in June, and I didn't see a local road viaduct over E20 (or, the construction of it...), which should be located in the eastern part of Viitna bypass. I know there were some problems between Maanteeamet and locals... :?


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## Maadeuurija

some low quality pictures of Viitna bypass

view to east









once more









View towards Tallinn









On the main road









(really sorry for the bad quality, its hard to take good pictures with a phone from a moving vehicle)


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## Norsko

^^
Is this a real motorway? Sure looks like one.


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## Xmaster

Definately looking good, however in Estonia there are no such thing like motorway, so they just increase speed limit for such stretches.


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## Pansori

Xmaster said:


> Definately looking good, however in Estonia there are no such thing like motorway, so they just increase speed limit for such stretches.


What is the speed limit on a stretch like the one in photos above?


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## makaveli6

110 (?)


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## RipleyLV

Norsko said:


> ^^
> Is this a real motorway? Sure looks like one.


After each update the same question over and over again...


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## Rebasepoiss

Thanks for the photos, Maadeuurija  

And yes, the speed limit is 110km/h.

Some history about Viitna bypass: 
October 1986 - The construction of Viitna bypass starts.
1989 - Viitna-Palmse road, the viaduct (which you can see in the photos) and the road dam were finished.
1990 - Rõmeda-Aaspere 2x2 section was finished. Rõmeda is also the place where the 2x2 part of Tallinn-Narva highway stops.
1991 - Loobu-Turba road was finished.
1992 - The money ran out (due to obvious reasons ) and the construction was stopped.
1996 - Loobu intersection was finished. It's situated a few km Westward from where the photos were taken.
2010 - Construction on Viitna bypass starts again.
July 2012 - Construction works finish.


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## Maadeuurija

romanzone said:


> Btw, I drove there in June, and I didn't see a local road viaduct over E20 (or, the construction of it...), which should be located in the eastern part of Viitna bypass. I know there were some problems between Maanteeamet and locals... :?


IMHO there will be no viaduct, I drove past it today and where the old road to Viitna forks off there was a U-turn instead a viaduct


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## ssh

You can still use the viaduct built in the late 80s to get to Viitna from either direction. It's very convenient, you end up right in the centre.

I drove on it last week and it's fantastic. Although I have to say, Loo-Maardu is even more insane. I wish I had a dashcam to record it.


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## kanterberg

^^ What is the main reason for not designating these roads as motorways? Is it simply a question of not having to build grade-seperated junctions or is there politics involved as well? 

I drove E20 from Tallin to Narva a few years back and from what I remember a significant portion of that road had motorway standard.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Let me clarify things a bit. There are 2 different types of 2x2 highways according to Estonian road construction standards: motorways and I class roads. What you can see on E20 is I class roads. I class roads are less strict. You may have a few U-turns here and there and there's no limited access required, the shoulders and the median are a bit narrower, there's less lighting required etc. Many older I class roads have plenty of features that wouldn't be acceptable on a motorway. The "problem" is that newer I class roads are built by very high standards with proper grade-separated intersections, no access from adjacent plots of land, separate access roads and bicycle routes etc. It wouldn't cost very much to increase the standards just a bit and make it a motorway. There has been no official explanation as to why we have no motorways in Estonia but low traffic numbers is probably the main reason.


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## Rebasepoiss

An update on Ülemiste interchange construction. These 2 photos are of the viaduct crossing Tartu road.



Tin_Can said:


> Small teaser
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## and802

Ülemiste ? isn't close to the international airport ? if so, will it be linked somehow ?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The airport is 1km South of this intersection. Although it won't be directly linked to the airport, this project will definitely decrease traffic jams and therefore make it faster to enter the city.


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## and802

what is the scheduled end date for this project ?

at what date do you usually stop construction works in Estonia in winter time ?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The scheduled date for completion is Autumn 2013. 

Road projects usually grind to a halt at snowfall. Sometimes it's at the beginning of November, sometimes it's early January. It also depends on what kind of construction work it is. Laying down asphalt is not possible in cold and snowy weather. Concrete can be poured if necessary but it's more complicated and expensive. Groundworks stop when the ground freezes.


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## ChrisZwolle

Does it also cross the railway? The flyover looks more like a large river bridge than a regular flyover.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ This particular flyover only crosses Tartu road but there is also a tunnel U/C that will go under the Tallinn-Narva railway


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## Rebasepoiss

And since *Tin_Can* is so kind to provide us with more updates, I thought I'd share them with you too.


Tin_Can said:


> Photo update of *Ülemiste road junction construction.* Part 1.
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> Photo update of *Ülemiste road junction construction.* Part 2.
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> U/C viaduct at Tartu mnt. *Click on the image for larger view.*
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## Valvejoodik

City of Tartu confirmed the construction of "Eastern corridor" together with new 400m (with 90m over Emajõgi) 2+2 bridge - it connects the Ropka industrial area with Annelinn.

It will decrease traffic density on the Vabaduse bridge and maybe also opens up possibilities of renovating Vabaduse bridge (it is in bad shape). 
The construction works have already begun and all works should end in April 2015.

http://www.tartupostimees.ee/1103588/tartu-andis-loa-idaringtee-sillaehituseks/ (in Estonian)









(From Tartu Postimees, Kristjan Teedema)


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ It's a 1+1 lane bridge  The scheme for the 2nd stage of Tartu Eastern bypass (including the bridge) can be found here: http://www.tartu.ee/data/ehitusala_2.pdf
The bridge itself:








More renders here: http://tartu.ee/?page_id=24536&lang_id=1&menu_id=2&gal_id=576


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## vatse

The first ice road of this winter was opened on this Monday between Haapsalu and Noarootsi. http://www.postimees.ee/1102816/esmaspaeval-avati-haapsalu-noarootsi-jaatee/
Some pictures http://www.postimees.ee/?g=15170#612844


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## ssh

The Regio/Google Street View drivers should do a winter ice roads special some time, that'd be cool.

EDIT: Nevermind, they have done it!


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## italystf

Are there some roads that could be classificated as motorway/expressway (at least 2 lanes per direction, divided and fully grade-separated)?


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## mcarling

italystf said:


> Are there some roads that could be classificated as motorway/expressway (at least 2 lanes per direction, divided and fully grade-separated)?


The problem is that they are not limited-access. As far as I know, bicyclists, pedestrians, etc. are free to use them.


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## ChrisZwolle

Is there a project going on to widen Route 1 Viitna - Rakvere to 2x2 lanes?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Not quite. There is a plan to build a dual carriageway on this section http://goo.gl/maps/AwYV1 but the project is divided into 3 stages. The first stage is the Haljala intersection which is almost finished (you can even see it on Google Maps, next to point B).
A photo from November:









The second stage is building the Aaspere intersection (at point A on Google Maps). The third stage is building a dual carriageway between those intersections. I've no idea when the second and third stage will be built, however. You can see the plan for the whole project here: http://romeda-haljala.ramboll.ee/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=174&Itemid=13


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## vatse

The second ice road for this year was opened between Rohuküla and Vormsi island on 22nd of January.


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## Hasper

> The problem is that they are not limited-access. As far as I know, bicyclists, pedestrians, etc. are free to use them.


 Currently the design guidelines for highway construction are being updated. Some changes have already been accepted.
Well... according to new guidelines, motorways should be build if the predicted traffic density (AADT) will be over
40 000! In the previous version it was over 8000. I-class roads now require AADT ~17 000 in 20 year perspective, before it was ~6000.

Other major differences:
- I class roads should now be planned as limited access:
* I class roads are not allowed to have same level crossings.
* Only 1 right turn exit/entrance is allowed between the 2 interchanges.
* Pedestrians and bicyclist are not allowed to use I class roads! So parallel road for "light traffic" should be built.

- I class roads can now have 1+1 cross section, with lane width - 5m, if AADT is below 20 000.
- II, III and IV class roads are not allowed to have 4-way intersections. These should be replaced with roundabouts, traffic lights, grade separated interchanges or be rebuilt into several 3-way intersections.

https://www.riigiteataja.ee/akt/108062012001.pdf


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## kapo311

Hasper said:


> - I class roads can now have 1+1 cross section, with lane width - 5m, if AADT is below 20 000.
> -* II, III and IV class roads *are not allowed to have 4-way intersections. These should be replaced with roundabouts, traffic lights, grade separated interchanges or be rebuilt into several 3-way intersections.
> 
> https://www.riigiteataja.ee/akt/108062012001.pdf


Is that ALL state-managed roads then? So in the future there will be roundabouts everywhere icard:


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## Rebasepoiss

Hasper said:


> * Pedestrians and bicyclist are not allowed to use I class roads! So parallel road for "light traffic" should be built.


They really should introduce the expressway sign to the traffic law.


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## Tin_Can

Rebasepoiss said:


> They really should introduce the expressway sign to the traffic law.


^^










Liikluseeskiri said:


> 511. *Kiirtee.* Koht, kus hakkab kehtima liikluseeskirjajärgne kiirteel liiklemise kord.
> 512. *Kiirtee lõpp.*


:dunno:


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## romanzone

^^ Expressway or motorway sign?

Everyone can find motorway signs in Estonia, but only in the traffic law. In Lithuania, there are motorways and expressways which exist in real life...

Honestly speaking, I don't know what sort of thing should happen, before we get our first motorway/expressway. Possibly, we need to make some kind of flashmob every day, for example, on E20 Tallinn-Narva highway between Loo and Maardu, drivers should use this stretch as many times as possible, to get maximum AADT. 

Stretch of E20 between Loo and Jõelähtme intersections (about 6 kms long) already has a good chance of becoming the first motorway. I mean lighting, collector roads, grade separation etc.

I can't understand what has happened with Kroodi intersection (on road from E20 to Muuga harbour), I mean that viaduct over railway lines. Land issues or engineering mistake, maybe someone knows? Although I live more than 20 kms from that location, but it's still interesting...


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## Rebasepoiss

@Tin_Can: I know we have a motorway sign but I meant a separate expressway sign, just to indicate that only motorised vehicles are allowed to use that road. 

If you ask me, they should get rid of the separation between I class roads and motorways and just put a motorway sign at every new I class road. Heck, Sweden, for example, has some motorways that have lower standards than our I class roads.


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## Valvejoodik

romanzone said:


> I can't understand what has happened with Kroodi intersection (on road from E20 to Muuga harbour), I mean that viaduct over railway lines. Land issues or engineering mistake, maybe someone knows? Although I live more than 20 kms from that location, but it's still interesting...


Land issues- My stepfather was one of the supervisors of this project and he told this:

Some guy purchased a lot of land BETWEEN railway lines with intention to "build" houses there nuts, now he wont let go of the land and wants enormous amount of money for it. I suppose they are going to take the land away from him, but it'll take time until court makes their decision. But supposed as this guy will appeal the court verdict, this is very long process and we won't get this bridge anytime soon.
(Though i have no idea how things are going at the moment, maybe we still get it soon )

EDIT: should be the plot with the red, viaduct is with green.


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## kapo311

Valvejoodik said:


> Land issues- My stepfather was one of the supervisors of this project and he told this:
> 
> Some guy purchased a lot of land BETWEEN railway lines with intention to "build" houses there nuts, now he wont let go of the land and wants enormous amount of money for it. I suppose they are going to take the land away from him, but it'll take time until court makes their decision. But supposed as this guy will appeal the court verdict, this is very long process and we won't get this bridge anytime soon.
> (Though i have no idea how things are going at the moment, maybe we still get it soon )


I just wonder if from any legal point of view it would be possible to build a bridge over his land without touching his property :lol:


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## mcarling

If the land owner's intentions were clearly not _bona fide_, then the state should just take about 2 square meters of land on which to put a column and pay him the average land price per square meter. Let him keep the rest of the land. Set an example for future speculators on infrastructural land.


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## Valvejoodik

mcarling said:


> If the land owner's intentions were clearly not _bona fide_, then the state should just take about 2 square meters of land on which to put a column and pay him the average land price per square meter. Let him keep the rest of the land. Set an example for future speculators on infrastructural land.


Actually this plot is designated as "industrial land"


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## mcarling

Valvejoodik said:


> Actually this plot is designated as "industrial land"


Then his claimed intention of building houses there seems particularly bogus.


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## Valvejoodik

mcarling said:


> Then his claimed intention of building houses there seems particularly bogus.


Well, houses, industry, whatever. This plot is anyway too small and badly located to build ANYTHING there :lol:


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## mcarling

Valvejoodik said:


> Well, houses, industry, whatever. This plot is anyway too small and badly located to build ANYTHING there :lol:


Then the state should take 1 or 2 square meters (whatever the minimum they need for a column) and pay him only for the land which will be covered by the column. His land was worthless before and it should remain worthless.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The problem with the current legislation is that private land can be acquired for state projects only through court so it takes a lot of time either way.


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## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ The problem with the current legislation is that private land can be acquired for state projects only through court so it takes a lot of time either way.


If they take only 1 or 2 square meters (and pay for only 1 or 2 square meters), the next obstructionist land owner may be more willing to sell quickly for a reasonable price.


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## Valvejoodik

I don't think owner want's such a "deal", he clearly purchased this lot because he knew something will happen there soon and now wants to earn... 

He would never accept this square deal, what he'll do with the rest of the land? No one else wants this :lol:


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## mcarling

Valvejoodik said:


> I don't think owner want's such a "deal", he clearly purchased this lot because he knew something will happen there soon and now wants to earn...
> 
> He would never accept this square deal, what he'll do with the rest of the land? No one else wants this :lol:


Exactly. He should not earn a reward for holding the country hostage. Others should see that he does not earn a reward. He bought the land knowing that it had no private value, only public value.


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## Rebasepoiss

Maardu interchange from above - a photo form last Autumn. Taken from www.taevapiltnik.ee/blog


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## Edela

> Some guy purchased a lot of land BETWEEN railway lines with intention to "build" houses there


Not houses. There are plans to build container terminal, and on this land between railway tracks is planned another railway, connecting terminal to Maardu station. There were also some renders on this forum.


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## Rebasepoiss

An update on Ülemiste intersection construction:


Tin_Can said:


> *Ülemiste road junction construction* photo update.
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Tin_Can said:


> *Ülemiste road junction construction* photo update.
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## crimio

Very nice!


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## Hasper

First sketch of the Sillamae interchange on Tallinn - Narva road (T1/E20) has been shown to public.
And it is quite bad... An interchange with 3 bridges ended up having 2 totally unneeded same level crossings on main road, along with one same level pedestrian crossing. Lack of acceleration lanes hints, that the speed limit will stay 50km/h. To make things even worse, we have a political decision to keep the road 1+1.

Construction is expected to start in 2015.


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## vatse

It seems that it's mainly meant to get better and safer access to port and factories of Silmet. The current crossroad is really awful. If they ever build the 2x2 road near Sillamäe it would probably be located between Sõtke reservoir and Vaivara. It would be much cheaper than building a bridge beside the current dam of reservoir or something like this. And there is much more space to build proper junctions between Sillamäe and Vaivara than at outskirts of Sillamäe where you will need street just beside highway.


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## djmuhv

Question to mods..
Can't this thread be moved under "Estonia" forum? http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2293

It's really annoying to keep track of it, if it's hidden here


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## Valvejoodik

Umm, i don't think so. Just use the "User CP" button top of the page to see new posts in threads where you have posted


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## Hasper

Here are the options, which are currently being considered for Vao (T1 / T11) interchange:


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## Rebasepoiss

#2 (which is basically just a simplified version of the last project) seems to be the best choice, the rest are just crap, IMO. Although none of them are as awesome as this would've been:









Looks like the Estonian Road Administration is quite serious about their new principle of spending as little as possible on new projetcs...


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## makaveli6

Whats with #1, traffic lights? Really?


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## Rebasepoiss

An update on Ülemiste junction tunnel construction by Tin_Can


Tin_Can said:


> *Ülemiste road junction reconstruction.*
> 
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## Valvejoodik

Some shots about Tallinn-Tartu highway roadworks:
(since it was dark already and i shot from bus, i used high ISO and got bit crappy photos )


















Some viaduct









Another viaduct right next to the previous one...









Aaaand another viaduct









"Ökodukt" 









Road is raised about 10m next to the Klaasimeistrid company









Bridge over small river









Same bridge

I missed one viaduct and one already completed tunnel (pedestrian one, i think)


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## Rebasepoiss

vatse said:


> It seems that it's mainly meant to get better and safer access to port and factories of Silmet. The current crossroad is really awful. If they ever build the 2x2 road near Sillamäe it would probably be located between Sõtke reservoir and Vaivara. It would be much cheaper than building a bridge beside the current dam of reservoir or something like this. And there is much more space to build proper junctions between Sillamäe and Vaivara than at outskirts of Sillamäe where you will need street just beside highway.


That's right, the 2x2 highway (if it ever gets built) will bypass Sillamäe completely: http://johvinarva.hendrikson.ee/upl...laneeringulahendus_Sillamae_linn_20120423.pdf

This web page has all the 2x2 highway route plans for the Jõhvi-Narva section of T1/E20.
http://johvinarva.hendrikson.ee/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=14


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## ssh

Some good news for road safety this year. There have only been 4 traffic deaths in the first quarter of 2013 and zero deaths in the month of March, which has never happened ever since cars started becoming a thing in Estonia.

Last year in the same period 29 people died, up from 18 in 2011.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Just a sidenote: all 4 of them have been pedestrians.

My theory about the low casualty number: the weather has been shitty so people drive more carefully. Whenever you get long periods of nice weather in the summer, it almost always goes hand in hand with a higher rate of deaths by car accidents.


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## lucky1

This is pretty crazy (crazy good!).


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## kapo311

ssh said:


> Some good news for road safety this year. There have only been 4 traffic deaths in the first quarter of 2013 and zero deaths in the month of March, which has never happened ever since cars started becoming a thing in Estonia.


I would guess this probably didnt even happen before cars became a thing  

It's really good news, and quite unbelivable, especially considering the previous statistics.


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## Rebasepoiss

As of today, all official ice roads have been closed for this season. This winter we had 3 official ice roads in Western Estonia (out of 6 potential routes). The Haapsalu-Noarootsi and Rohuküla-Vormsi ice roads were opened in January, the Munalaiu-Kihnu ice road was opened only in the middle of March - that's usually the time when official ice roads are closed. 

Hopefully Spring will now soon arrive and we get to see some roadworks again  The Aruvalla-Kose section of dual carriageway is supposed to be finished this Autumn, also the Ülemiste intersection in Tallinn. Kurna intersection construction on Tallinn bypass should also begin this year. So it will be an interesting year.


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## romanzone

^^ And also, Topi intersection on Pärnu highway near Tallinn, Tartu Eastern bypass with a new bridge over Emajõgi, Tartu Postimaja intersection, Jõhvi viaduct and other projects. Hopefully, things with Kroodi intersection (Muuga harbour road) will also move forward.

It will be interesting to see how many kms of roads will have 100 and 110 km/h speed limit during summer season this year. Don't forget the last year, when we didn't have any "100" signs on Estonian roads, because of worse road safety statistics. This year, things may become better, considering huge drop in number of traffic deaths during first months of this year.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ I think we won't see 100km/h speed limits any more on 1x2 highways.


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## ChrisZwolle

https://maps.google.com/?ll=59.3737...1hvk4uONiZ1Ko0470g&cbp=11,77.84,,0,-0.44&z=16

What happened here?


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## Tin_Can

ChrisZwolle said:


> https://maps.google.com/?ll=59.3737...1hvk4uONiZ1Ko0470g&cbp=11,77.84,,0,-0.44&z=16
> 
> What happened here?


It's partially dismantled railway bridge on industrial railway line running parallel to the highway. They could have used railway dam and it's bridge to create multi level crossing there,but I guess conversion to highway would have been to big and traffic density is to low to justify it. That's why only concrete bridge supports remain there.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ That is not correct, I'm afraid. It was a road viaduct built in 1961. In 1985 a railway crane hit the viaduct and damaged it beyond repair. In 1986 a "temporary" bypass was created and it stands till this day. Source: http://www.epl.ee/news/eesti/purunenud-viadukt-ohustab-paasu-lohkeainetehase-juurde.d?id=51095593


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## Tin_Can

^^
Really? Odd,I kinda remember similar looking former railway bridge somewhere in the Eastern Estonia. Must have mixed them up or smth.


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## romanzone

Tin_Can said:


> ^^ Really? Odd,I kinda remember similar looking former railway bridge somewhere in the Eastern Estonia. Must have mixed them up or smth.


Yes, and that bridge is still in use. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae9MZY5qIDY


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## kapo311

^^ Looks like the middle section of this bridge has been replaced as well, was it also hit by crane? :lol:


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## Rebasepoiss

An update on T2/E263 Aruvalla-Kose dual carriageway construction.
Photos taken from: http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=23811

Bridge over Pirita river on the left


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## Rebasepoiss

Ülemiste intersection construction. 


Edela said:


> Few pics of Järvevana and Ülemiste. Sorry about quality.


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## makaveli6

Whats currently happening on Highway 1? Are there any road constructions going on? Also it was recently reported in Latvian media that Estonia's speed limit will be raised to 120 km/h. True?


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## ChrisZwolle

Only 27 people were killed on the roads in Estonia during the first half of 2013.

To compare, the average for 1991-2013 is 200 fatalities per year.


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## makaveli6

Whats the current avarage on EU?


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## javimix19

ChrisZwolle said:


> Only 27 people were killed on the roads in Estonia during the first half of 2013.
> 
> To compare, the average for 1991-2013 is 200 fatalities per year.


It is means that roads are improved in the last years isn't it? Estonia is doing well in road refurbishment.

And other question:

When I can see actual motorways and motorways under construction in Estonia? I see Google Maps but it appears that there are not motorways in Estonia. Can you post any link to that? Thank you very much.


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## OulaL

makaveli6 said:


> Whats currently happening on Highway 1? Are there any road constructions going on? Also it was recently reported in Latvian media that Estonia's speed limit will be raised to 120 km/h. True?


Sounds insane, unless that means a specific limit for dual carriage roads. (Or motorways, which Estonia has none of.)

I'd like to see the source for that.


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## jkk

OulaL said:


> Sounds insane, unless that means a specific limit for dual carriage roads. (Or motorways, which Estonia has none of.)
> 
> I'd like to see the source for that.


Talks about raising the speed limit are only about the 2+2 roads, elsewhere lowering the speed limit is being considered. 


Not All Speed Limits Need to Be Reduced, Says Official
Deputy Police Chief Also Open to Raising Speed Limits
Although the article says that also 1+1 roads get 100 km/h speed limits for the summer, as far as I know this was cancelled last year and will not be used any more.

Basically what they are saying, is that speed limits need to be more adjusted to match the road conditions.


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## ssh

I don't think 110 for the whole winter is such a good idea for our 2+2 roads. If there's no snow in October-November and March-April than maybe those months could see higher speed limits.

An electronic regulation system might be best. 110 if it's dry and warm in the winter (which does happen quite often), 90 if the overtaking lane is covered in snow and 120 starting from mid-April til the first snow/ice.


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## duxo89

Welcome. I do statistics of roads in Europe. I have question.
What is the total length of Estonian Motorways and Expressways?


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## OulaL

duxo89 said:


> Welcome. I do statistics of roads in Europe. I have question.
> What is the total length of Estonian Motorways and Expressways?


For motorways it's 0. For expressways it probably depends on the definition.


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## duxo89

What is the definition of expressway in Estonia?
I read the statistics EUROSTAT that at the end of 2009 in Estonia was 100 km Motorways.


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## Hasper

As most of you already know, due to the lack of funds, Estonian road administration has decided that years 2014 - 2020 will be dedicated to the existing road preservation. The problem is that current average age of pavement on main roads is 10-12 years, but for regional roads it is over 20 and for local roads over 25! And the numbers are growing. The target is to have it below 15 and keep it there.
This means that majority of money will go to repaving, paving and reconstruction of roads. Amount of new major constructions has been minimized, with yearly investments being at level of 30 - 45 mln EURs. 

With this in mind, what major constructions we will see in *2014 - 2020*:
*1) Tallinn - Narva road*
- Sillamae stretch (2016). Reconstruction of the existing 1+1 road in Sillamae with new traffic lights, railroad interchange and pedestrian tunnels.
- Vao interchange (2017 - 2018). Construction of a new interchange near Tallinn. Stage 3 of Vao - Maardu reconstruction.
- Kostivere interchange (2019). Reconstruction of 7km of the existing 2+2 road to add a new interchange and remove same level crossings.
- Aaspere - Haljala (2020). Construction of a new 7km 2+1 or 2+2 stretch between the existing 2+2 sections.

*2) Tallinn - Tartu road*
- Tartu western bypass (2014 - 2015). Continuation of Tartu eastern bypass reconstruction. In total ~7km.
- Tatra safety improvements (2016). Reconstruction of the Tatra intersection. It will stay same level, but a 1km bypass will be built to improve visibility on T-2 and the T-46 road will get a 2+1 section.
- Kose - Aardu (2016 - 2020). A new 14km 2+2 or 2+1 section.
- Poltsama - Tartu (2018). Construction of 2+1 sections. Pre-project ongoing, no details yet known.

*3) Tallinn - Parnu.*
- Topi interchange and reconstruction of the road till Tallinn border (2014 , 2017). Continuation of Topi interchange construction in 2014 + a new traffic light in 2017.
- Aasmae - Kernu (2015 - 2016). Construction of the 2+1 sections on the 12km stretch.
- Nurme stretch (2016 - 2018). Widening of the existing 6km section to 2+1 and construction of a new bridge over Sauga river. 
- Kernu bypass (2018 - 2019). A new 4km 2+1 section bypassing the village.

*4) Tallinn - Paldiski / Tallinn ringroad.*
- Section near Keila (2014 - 2015). Reconstruction of T-8 / T-11 intersection into a roundabout + several new roundabouts and a new 500m 2+2 section.
- Vao - Juri (2015 - 2020). This project has been split into 10 small parts. What will be done: Juri big roundabout reconstruction, Juri small roundabout widening to 2+2, Karla interchange, new Laagedi railroad bridge for local traffic and widening of the existing Laagedi intersection to 2+2 with traffic lights.
- Juuliku - Kanama section (2019). Most likely a 5km 2+2 road with traffic lights and a new bridge for local traffic. No Juuliku interchange planned!
- Kanama - Keila (2019 - 2020). Some safety improvements on intersections with road staying 1+1.



> Whats currently happening on Highway 1? Are there any road constructions going on?


 - km 65 - 70. One of the oldest section of the road is being currently reconstructed. Left carriageway near Loobu, which was constructed in 1970s!
Some images: http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=23949
- km 72. Viitna viadukt is being reconstructed.
- km 87,0 – 90,5. Haljala interchange is fully open for traffic. 
http://www.teeilm.teeinfo.ee/haljala1.php3
http://www.teeilm.teeinfo.ee/haljala2.php3
- km 120. New bridge construction in Padaorg:




> Also it was recently reported in Latvian media that Estonia's speed limit will be raised to 120 km/h. True?


 In one interview head of the Estonian road administration has mentioned that one day it might be good to have. But he is not the one to decide. So it is only talks.


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## makaveli6

Intresting that our media reported that as if the 120 km/h limit thing has been decided already.


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## Pansori

Estonia can not has motorways


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## ChrisZwolle

Hasper said:


> Amount of new major constructions has been minimized, with yearly investments being at level of 30 - 45 mln EURs.


Wow, that's pretty much pocket change.


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## Pansori

Is that figure the total annual investment into road infrastructure?


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## Hasper

> Is that figure the total annual investment into road infrastructure?


 Ofcourse not. The amount of investments stays the same. But only ~ 40 mln EUR will go into road network development (new major projects when a road changes alignment, is being upgraded to an upper class, gets interchanges.) and the rest ~ 210 mln EUR per year will be spent on repavements, bridge repairs, reconstructions. In other words for preservation of existing network.
The plans are quite major:
- To repair 400km of gravel roads per year.
- To do preservation repairs on 1200km of roads per year.
- To build 100km of pavement for gravel roads per year.
- To repair up to 35 bridges per year.
- To repave up to 180km of roads per year.
- To reconstruct up to 40km of main roads per year.
+ those major projects from previous post.

The total length of Estonian highway network is ~16 500km


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## OulaL

duxo89 said:


> What is the definition of expressway in Estonia?
> I read the statistics EUROSTAT that at the end of 2009 in Estonia was 100 km Motorways.


I don't know the definition, not even if there is any.

I also wonder what is Eurostat's definition for a motorway. Estonian dual carriage roads are not signposted as such. There are also some u-turns allowed and some other features not acceptable on motorways.


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## k6uelind

Hasper said:


> Ofcourse not. The amount of investments stays the same. But only ~ 40 mln EUR will go into road network development (new major projects when a road changes alignment, is being upgraded to an upper class, gets interchanges.) and the rest ~ 210 mln EUR per year will be spent on repavements, bridge repairs, reconstructions. In other words for preservation of existing network.


I hope these figures 40 and 210 million EUR do not include subsidies from EU. If they do, then something is really wrong.

It is sad to see all these big dreams of great new road developments fade away. But yes, most of them were indeed too unrealistic. But some of them live on in my heart. The northern bypass of Tartu, for example. 

Overall, I think. modest but realistic plans are more important than ambitious plans that will never come to reality.


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## mcarling

OulaL said:


> For motorways it's 0. For expressways it probably depends on the definition.


While I agree that no Estonia roads _should be_ classed as motorways, whether or not any Estonia roads _are_ classed as motorways definitely depends on the definition, just as for expressways. It may be (I don't know) that Eurostat have a very broad definition of "motorway".


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## OulaL

mcarling said:


> While I agree that no Estonia roads _should be_ classed as motorways, whether or not any Estonia roads _are_ classed as motorways definitely depends on the definition, just as for expressways. It may be (I don't know) that Eurostat have a very broad definition of "motorway".


The Estonian law already recognises the "motorway" sign, familiar to all Europeans; and no roads have been signposted with such.

In the future, maybe.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ I really doubt Estonia will have any motorways ever. The reason being that in 2012 the regulations for building motorways changed: now the estimated AADT (in 20 years' time) must be over 40,000 to require building a motorway. Considering that the current highest AADT on any non-urban highway is just below 30,000 and even that on a very short section, and that we have a declining population it's hard to imagine there ever being enough traffic too meet the needed target. 

Fortunately the regulations for building dual carriageways (or 1st class roads as they're called here) are quite strict so the lack of official motorways is not a huge deal, especially if the Estonian Road Administration is considering to rise the speed limits on dual carriageways to 120km/h in the future.

I also think that it's a good strategy to focuse on maintaining the current road network and improving safety, rather than building immensely expensive road projects on just a few short sections. Of course it would be excellent to have both but unfortunately we're not that wealthy.

To foreigners and also for Estonians it's difficult to understand how low the AADT actually is even on our main trunk routes: apart from Tallinn bypass (and a few short semi-urban sections) all the roads with an AADT higher than 10,000 are already dual carriageways. (2012 traffic density map: http://www.mnt.ee/public/Liiklussagedus/2012/2012_la_lisa_13.pdf )


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## ChrisZwolle

I would focus on constructing passing lanes to provide safe passing options, rather than full motorways, which are indeed not necessary from a traffic volume point of view.


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## mcarling

ChrisZwolle said:


> I would focus on constructing passing lanes to provide safe passing options, rather than full motorways, which are indeed not necessary from a traffic volume point of view.


In my opinion, the major routes of Tallinn-Parnu, Tallinn-Tartu, and Tallinn-Narva should at least be upgraded to 2+1 roads.


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## Rebasepoiss

Passing lanes or 2+1 sections on current highways are indeed being considered. The initial project for passing lanes on T2 between Põltsamaa and Tartu is currently being made. The deadline is in November - then we will know in what scale this could actually be done. 

The problem with constructing 2+1 highways is the large number of access points - pretty much every house/farm etc along the highway has access. The purpose of this project is to find out where passing lanes could be constructed without the need for grade-separated intersections and extensive collector roads.


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## javimix19

I don't know why in soviet times the USSR Government built a network of motorways in Lithuania and not in Estonia and Latvia.


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## mcarling

javimix19 said:


> I don't know why in soviet times the USSR Government built a network of motorways in Lithuania and not in Estonia and Latvia.


Lithuanian SSR wanted roads. Latvian SSR wanted factories. I'm not sure what happened in Estonia.


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## Valvejoodik

I might be wrong but when we look at the map then i think:

Lithuania has a good access to central Europe- that means with good roads the soviets could quickly deploy their military units towards Europe (also through Belarus). And that was a necessary thing in the cold war...

Secondly i have some of my own ideas about Lithuanian SSR and Russian SSR relations 

EDIT: Estonia just wanted to sing and dance :lol:


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## rakcancer

Looking at the map motorways in Lithuania are not connecting Europe with rest of former USSR. They are rather intended to connect Belarus/Minsk with ports in Lithuania and Riga in Latvia (in the future).


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## Gatis

In Soviet times, since the middle of 1970ies Lithuania was net receiver in the economy of USSR, while Latvia and Estonia were giving more than they received. Estonia had the most efficient economy.
Lithuanians invested heavily in infrastructure, and, what is even better, heads of Lithuanian Communist Party had very special relations with Russia. They managed to convince Russians that they themselves control Lithuania very well and outsiders are not much needed. This was not the case in Latvia and Estonia, who got obliging governors and loads of immigrants. Latvia got the worst case - after suppresed nationalist "coup d'etat" in our Communist Party in early 1960ies Latvia was seen as untrustable and there was heavy handed direct control from Moscow.


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## Agnette

rakcancer said:


> Looking at the map motorways in Lithuania...


O yes, looking at the map Lithuania has motorways, but in real life they are just 2x2 highways with speed limit 130 kmph (110 kmph in winter).
The one part of the new expressway [A9] (~12 km long) much safer than both Lithuanian "motorways" [A1] and [A2].
There is example of [A9]:

Map: http://goo.gl/maps/iQ2B7


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## rakcancer

Nevertheless, they are most motorway-like roads built during Soviet era.


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## OulaL

At least Lithuania has roads signposted with "motorway" signs.

However, they radiate from Vilnius and are not a good use to anyone going to Central Europe, unlike someone suggested.


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## Agnette

OulaL said:


> At least Lithuania has roads signposted with "motorway" signs.


Estonia has the same layout road [1], but without "motorway" sign (from 19:10):








> However, they radiate from Vilnius and are not a good use to anyone going to Central Europe, unlike someone suggested.


Vilnius has only one "motorway" [A2]... toward Riga.
Other "motorway" [A1] is from Kaunas to Klaipeda.


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## OulaL

Agnette said:


> Estonia has the same layout road [1], but without "motorway" sign (from 19:10):


Right, and there are roads like that from Tallinn towards Pärnu and Tartu as well (much shorter though).

Estonian regulations for motorways (as cited by Rebasepoiss) seem to be pretty strict, especially the AADT requirement of 40,000. Very few existing Finnish motorways exceed that.


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't see the point of a certain minimum level of traffic volume required to gain motorway status. There tens of thousands of kilometers of motorway in Europe with less than 40.000 vehicles per day. Motorway status is about traffic restrictions and design standards, not traffic volumes.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ I totally agree. As far as I know, no good explanation has been given as to why the required AADT is so high or why there is a certain requirement at all.


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## Maadeuurija

The AADT is so high cause they know thatit'll never be that high so they don't have to build it because they couldn't keep up with the maintenance requirements


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## Rebasepoiss

Another Ülemiste intersection update by Tin_Can :


Tin_Can said:


> Photo update of *Ülemiste road junction construction.*
> 
> Järvevana tee has got new asphalt between Veerenni interchange & Tartu mnt interchange. Majority of landscaping has also been finished on that section. Side streets still miss the final layer of pavement.
> On Saturday (when I took those photos) workers were removing asphalt between Järvevana tee railway crossing & Veerenni interchange and were preparing for road reconstruction.
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Tin_Can said:


> Photo update of *Ülemiste road junction construction.*
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## Valvejoodik

Exclusive, newer seen before pictures about Ülemiste intersection (by me):









View towards viaduct









View towards new tramway (no big progress atm.)









"road" to nowhere (ok, actually future mall)









Viaduct









Entrance to the "mini-tunnel"









And Bam! View from top of the viaduct to the east 









Top of the viaduct









View towards centre









And view towards tunnel (there were also two other guys cycling so i guess guards don't give a f*ck or they're just too lazy :lol









View towards tunnel









And view towards viaduct from the west side

Totally OT, but this plane looked like a rocket at first glance


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## Rebasepoiss

2 photos of the soon-to-be-finished Ülemiste intersection:


Maadeuurija said:


> Siit pildilt peaksid loodetavasti vastuse leidma
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> picture: Andres Putting





Tin_Can said:


> ^^


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## bleetz

Gatis said:


> In Soviet times, since the middle of 1970ies Lithuania was net receiver in the economy of USSR, while Latvia and Estonia were giving more than they received.


Can you provide a source for this? It is common knowledge that Lithuania was a net contributor in USSR so I would really like to know where you got this information from.


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## Rebasepoiss

And a video from inside and around the tunnel. A rescue training operation took place there before, that's the reason for the dented cars in the tunnel.


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## FordFalcon

The pedestrian/cyclist tunnel that was finished earlier has mirrors installed and priority signs marked. They even removed graffiti!! I think they are doing a pretty good job - only lacking things are the directional signposts for the pedestrians and the cyclists indicating like "to the airport xxxmeters", "bus stop xxx meters" and other practical bits. Anyway hooray to the decision makers to having spent so much money for constructing the parallel cycle/jogging path!!


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## Rebasepoiss

Ülemiste intersection will be opened in only 3 days but until then, another update by Tin_Can:


Tin_Can said:


> Photo update of *Ülemiste road junction construction.*
> 
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## ChrisZwolle

The first tunnel of Estonia?


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## Shenkey

What is with European funds for highway constrution? Most of east nations use that for 50% of financing.


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## Wover

Theoretically, I think Estonia would still be able to construct new highways with support from EU, but the problem is that EU does not pay for maintenance and it appears that with current budgets, the maximum number of roads/new roads has been reached while still being able to pay for the maintenance.


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## ChrisZwolle

I think Estonia (and Latvia) should build more 2x2 divided highways to improve safety and driving comfort, but without the higher cost of interchanges at every crossroad. It seems to work fine in low-volume areas like Canada and central U.S.


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## Valvejoodik

Hmm, i didn't understand you completely, but i'll try to explain:

There isn't a interchange at every crossroad. Roads coming towards the highway join into "side-road" and there will be a intersection maybe in a 5-10km. The problem is that all these roads (highway itself, intersections and side-roads) need to be maintained, i think the most expensive thing is to keep all of them clean during the winter. We already had times when local governments ran out of maintenance-money because we had excessive amounts of snow... 
In addition, interchanges need lighting and that also costs...


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think Estonia (and Latvia) should build more 2x2 divided highways to improve safety and driving comfort, but without the higher cost of interchanges at every crossroad. It seems to work fine in low-volume areas like Canada and central U.S.


I believe the Estonian Road Administration is going to go with 2+1 roads instead. Recently a study about 'passing lanes' for T2/E263 between Põltsamaa and Tartu was finished. It suggested constructing 15 sections with 2+1 lanes between the aformentioned towns. See map here. The intersections would still be at-grade and there would be U-turns after every few km-s to provide access to smaller roads and plots next to the highway. An animation of the design of this future 2+1 road can be seen here .

It would pretty much eliminate the danger of head-on collisions but also provide opportunities for overtaking after every few kilometres while keeping the cost of construction relatively low. The design mostly follows the Swedish 2+1 highways.


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## Kanadzie

Valvejoodik said:


> Hmm, i didn't understand you completely, but i'll try to explain:
> 
> There isn't a interchange at every crossroad. Roads coming towards the highway join into "side-road" and there will be a intersection maybe in a 5-10km. The problem is that all these roads (highway itself, intersections and side-roads) need to be maintained, i think the most expensive thing is to keep all of them clean during the winter. We already had times when local governments ran out of maintenance-money because we had excessive amounts of snow...
> In addition, interchanges need lighting and that also costs...


Maybe instead, use like in Michigan, USA 2x2 divided highway, no interchanges, and each crossing road just merges onto the highway directly as right-in / right-out. Then after 500 m or 1 km, there is a U-turn, so traffic wanting to go straight on the small road enters, U-turns, then exits. There are some roads like that in rural areas with 120 km/h traffic and it seems to work fine...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_left

Example:
https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=romeo...=PW__I8zNj9plbZ5V4u8PhA&cbp=12,15.09,,0,-0.08


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## dr_szczecin

http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=11186
I was looking for any info about forthcoming investment in Estonia and that's ^^ what I've found. 
Am I translating it right? Is this a list of main investment projects for 2014-2020? 
If yes, could you help me with finding more accurate data for project form that list? 

I would much appriciate your hlep.
Thanks


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## makaveli6

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think Estonia (and Latvia) should build more 2x2 divided highways to improve safety and driving comfort, but without the higher cost of interchanges at every crossroad. It seems to work fine in low-volume areas like Canada and central U.S.


We need to, but we should not build new roads, while the old ones cant be maintained properly. The situation in Estonia is better than in Latvia though.


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## Rebasepoiss

dr_szczecin said:


> http://www.mnt.ee/index.php?id=11186
> I was looking for any info about forthcoming investment in Estonia and that's ^^ what I've found.
> Am I translating it right? Is this a list of main investment projects for 2014-2020?
> If yes, could you help me with finding more accurate data for project form that list?
> 
> I would much appriciate your hlep.
> Thanks


No, unfortunately these are not the investment projects for 2014-2020. The Estonian Road Administration decided to set the routes for T1/E20, T2/E263 and T4/E67 in case some day they will be built into a dual carriageway. So these are just preliminary plans so that the local governments could take into account the potential new roads, interchanges etc in their regional plans.

The investment projects for 2014-2020 haven't been set yet since this largely depends on the EU funds. 

The main road projects in the Estonian transportation plan for 2014-2020 are, however:


II stage of Tartu Eastern bypass. Construction of a link between Lammi street and Tartu-Räpina highway.
Construction of Väo interchange (between T2/E20 and T11 or Tallinn bypass).
Reconstructing T2/E20 in Sillamäe.
Construction of a dual carriageway on T2/E263 between Kose and Võõbu.
Construction of 'passing lanes' on T2/E263 between Põltsamaa and Tartu which essentially means a 2+1 road between these two towns.
Construction of Topi interchange on T4/E67 - it's currently ongoing.
Construction of 'passing lanes' on T4/E67 between Ääsmäe and Kernu
Construction of Kernu bypass on T4/E67.
Straightening the route at Nurme on T4/E67.
Reconstructing T11 at Keila, including the construction of a new bridge.
Reconstructing T11 between Kanama and Keila.
Construction of the Jälgimäe viaduct (intechange?) in Jälgimäe on T11.

In addition, there are already 2 projects ongoing on Tallinn bypass (T11). These are Kurna interchange and the construction of a dual carriageway between the recently finished Luige interchange and the U/C Kurna interchange.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

The 2+1 roads might be more safe but what I don't understand is what will happen if a slow vehicle (a tractor for example) uses the road. On the single lane it will block all the traffic behind it since there is no room for overtaking.
And there is also the question of cyclists - again due to the narrow single lane and barriers it will be hard to keep a safe distance between the cyclist and the car.
For that reason I very much like the wide Via Baltica Ādaži - Lilaste section in Latvia. But what to car drivers think about that kind of road?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ That's exactly what I thought about as well. Most of our highways also act as local roads that carry slower vehicles (like tractors and bicycles, as you mentioned). I'm not entirely sure how they will address that issue. The construction of the first 2+1 sections won't start before 2018, however, so a lot can still change.

I'm personally not a fan of those 1x2 highways with very wide shoulders (like the one on Via Baltica in Latvia). They seem unsafe, at least to me. A 2+1 road is definitely safer but the problem of slow vehicles still remains.


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## mcarling

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> The 2+1 roads might be more safe but what I don't understand is what will happen if a slow vehicle (a tractor for example) uses the road. On the single lane it will block all the traffic behind it since there is no room for overtaking.
> And there is also the question of cyclists - again due to the narrow single lane and barriers it will be hard to keep a safe distance between the cyclist and the car.
> For that reason I very much like the wide Via Baltica Ādaži - Lilaste section in Latvia. But what to car drivers think about that kind of road?


I don't think tractors should be allowed on these roads (except on a trailer being pulled by a vehicle capable of 80 km/h).


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## ChrisZwolle

I think it's a choice between building alternate routes / parallel roads for agricultural traffic, or constructing 4-lane highways. The combination of 2+1 and tractors is dangerous, I don't think there are countries which allow tractors on such roads.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

ChrisZwolle said:


> I think it's a choice between building alternate routes / parallel roads for agricultural traffic, or constructing 4-lane highways. The combination of 2+1 and tractors is dangerous, I don't think there are countries which allow tractors on such roads.


I'm still confused. So why would anybody (unless there already is a parallel road) spend the money to build a 100 km/h 2+1 road and an adjacent <60 km/h 1x2 local road instead of building a simple 100 km/h 2x2 highway? :lol:

I made a small illustration to compare the different road widths Here
a 100 km/h 2x2
the Estonian 2+1 + a local road for slow traffic
a 110 km/h 2x2


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## Kanadzie

2+1 is really terrible. It isn't so bad when you are on the 2, but when you are on the 1, ouch. I am not sure if it is even better than uncontrolled normal 1x2 with passing lane...


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The speed differences between different types of vehicles aren't as great in Estonia as in many other countries. In Estonia the maximum allowed speed for buses and trucks is 90km/h (which is also the maximum speed allowed on single carriageways in Estonia). Sure, a tractor still has a maximum speed of 40km/h but hopefully they will figur out a solution to keep tractors away from 2+1 roads.


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## mcarling

Kanadzie said:


> 2+1 is really terrible. It isn't so bad when you are on the 2, but when you are on the 1, ouch. I am not sure if it is even better than uncontrolled normal 1x2 with passing lane...


The advantage of 2+1 over 1x2 is not so much how fast one can reach one's destination. The advantage is safety.


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## StreetWarrior

Estonian future REAL highways/ motorways/ freeways: 

1/ E20 - Tallinn-Rakvere-Jõhvi-Narva-[To St. Petersburg]
2/ E263 - Tallinn-(Mäo)-Tartu-Võru-Luhamaa
?/ E?? - Tallinn-Rapla-Türi-Viljandi-[to Latvia]
4/ E67 - Tallinn-Ääsmäe-Pärnu-Ikla-[To Riga]
8/ E265 - Tallinn-Keila-Paldiski
11/ E265 - Tallinna ringtee
5/ E?? - Rakvere-(Mäo)-(Türi)-Pärnu
3/ E264 - Jõhvi-Tartu-Valga-[to Riga]
92/ E?? - Tartu-Viljandi-Kilingi Nõmme-Pärnu
9/ E?? - Ääsmäe-Risti-Haapsalu
10/ E?? - Risti-Virtsu-Kuresaare
6/ E?? - Pärnu-Kilingi Nõmme-Valga


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Most of these roads have WAY too little traffic to justify building a motorway. Just look at the traffic density maps of 2013 for the whole of Estonia and for roads around Tallinn and Tartu. Besides, the Estonian Road Administration has showed no interest in building motorways so dual carriageways will probably be the best we can get, even in the future.

The current plans for building dual carriageways include:
- Kose-Ardu section on T2/E263 which has an AADT of ~7400. I'd say even that is a bit of a stretch in terms of traffic density but that's more to do with the poor geometry and safety of the current highway and a political will to develop the "most important highway" in Estonia.
- Jüri-Luige section on T11/E265 (Tallinn bypass) which has an AADT of 10,000-14,000.


----------



## RV

Is the road towards Narva now 2x3 near Tallinn?


----------



## Rebasepoiss

RV said:


> Is the road towards Narva now 2x3 near Tallinn?


Yes but only between Iru interchange and Maardu interchange (2.5 km). It looks like this.


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## StreetWarrior

In think Peterburi highway is 3+3 from Pirita river to Maardu interchange


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## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> Most of these roads have WAY too little traffic to justify building a motorway.


The value of 2x2 roads over 1x2 roads is not only increased capacity; the value is also in safety and reduced travel times.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Sure, that's why we're building 2x2 sections where the AADT is less than 8,000 (which is definitely not an issue, capacity wise, for 1x2) But if the AADT is 2,500 it's a complete waste of money to build a 2x2 highway.


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## RV

If a road is 300 Kms long and has all the way 6000-10000 AADT, it should be upgraded to 2+2 I think.


----------



## StreetWarrior

Something exclusive: Viimsi Highway (replaces Laagna tee)

PS: _ALTERNATE REALITY WARNING! THIS IS PART OF MY ALTERNATE REALITY SETTING. Introducing web page coming soong (when I finish all elements)_

Viimsi highway has following crossings: 
* same level crossing with Juhkentali (formerly Odra) and Tartu highway (and formerly K. Türnpu)
* same level crossing J. Kunderi from left
* same level crossing J. Vilmsi
* 2 level crossing with Gonsori from left
* Pallasti (no crossing, only bridge)
* 2 level crossing with Võidujooksu
* 2 level crossing with J. Smuuli tee
* 2 level crossing with M. Härma
* 2 level crossing with Liikuri (formerly Varraku)
* 2 level crossing with Mustakivi tee
* 2 level crossing with Mahtra
* 2 level crossing K. Kärberi
* 2-3 level crossing with Väo interchange (Peterburi highway; Rahu tee; Tallinn large ringroad)
* bridge over Pirita river
* Elevated section over Iru asum (part of Tallinn)
* 2 level crossing with Narva highway (Vana-Narva highway)
* tunnel beneath Pärnamäe cementary + 2 level crossing with Muuga tee
* bridge over Tallinn-Helsinki railway
* divided into two directions
* eastside direction 2 level crossing with Randvere tee and Muuga tee
* westside direction beneath Metsakasti
* 2 level crossing with Randvere tee in Lubja + bridge over industrial area
* bridge over Tallinn-Helsinki railway
* 2 level crossing with Rohuneeme tee in Rohuneeme

The secton we know as Laagna tee has rapid transit rails (Los Angeles tram-like and Los Angeles subway-like system) in median strip and has a follwong stops: 
* Kumu
* Võidujooksu (local trams only)
* Paesilla
* Kotka kauplus
* Sabatähe
* Mustakivi
* Priisle (underground terminal)


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## Rebasepoiss

The Estonian Road Administration and the Lithuanian company UAB Kelprojektas signed a contract to create a project for the Ääsmäe-Kernu section on T4/E67. This project consists of 2 separate parts. The first one is the 9km Ääsmäe-Kohatu section which will be built as a *2+1 highway*. The construction of the first part will hopefully start *next year.*
The second part of the project is a bypass for Kernu (approx. 5km long). This will also be designed as a 2+1 highway, although the construction will most likely start only in 2018. See the route map here.


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## RV

Rebasepoiss said:


> The Estonian Road Administration and the Lithuanian company UAB Kelprojektas signed a contract to create a project for the Ääsmäe-Kernu section on T4/E67. This project consists of 2 separate parts. The first one is the 9km Ääsmäe-Kohatu section which will be built as a *2+1 highway*. The construction of the first part will hopefully start *next year.*
> The second part of the project is a bypass for Kernu (approx. 5km long). This will also be designed as a 2+1 highway, although the construction will most likely start only in 2018. See the route map here.


2+1 = wasting money hno:


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ What would you suggest then?


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## mcarling

RV said:


> 2+1 = wasting money hno:


What do you think is the cost difference between 1x2 and 2+1 ???


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## Pascal20a

Whats the actual status of the highway section aruvalla - pikakülla??


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Aruvalla - Kose-Risti section is a dual carriageway, the rest is a simple 1x2 highway.


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## Pascal20a

Will they make this highway as a motorway to Lettonia?


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## Agnette

Rebasepoiss said:


> ...the rest is a simple 2x1 highway.


May be 1x2? It is not the same layout of road.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Yes, my bad.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

delete


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## RV

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ What would you suggest then?


2x2? Two millions don't make difference.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Think of the 2+1 road as more of a 1x2 highway with passing lanes. There will be no grade-separted junctions, no limited access etc. Sure, you could also build a sub-standard 2x2 road for a slightly higher price than a 2+1 road but I'm personally not a fan of those (and we have plenty of them here). U-turns, left turns at grade, no-limited access etc - it all makes me feel a bit eerie on a 2x2 highway.


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## Rebasepoiss

On Thursday a contract was signed to create a project for a dual carriageway between Kose and Võõbu on the T2/E263. This section will be built on a completely new route, it's 25km long and divided into 2 separate stages. 

The first stage runs between Kose and Ardu and is 12.3 km long, construction will start in 2016. It will have 2 interchanges, 2 crossings and an ecoduct.

The second stage runs between Ardu and Võõbu - start of construction hasn't been decided yet.

See the map here


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## mcarling

I suspect that the T2/E263 will be 2x2 at least from Tallinn to the T5. Can anyone confirm or refute?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ According to the current plans, the 2x2 will stop at Võõbu, unfortunately.


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## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ According to the current plans, the 2x2 will stop at Võõbu, unfortunately.


Thanks. That's sad.


----------



## Blackraven

Personally, I always prefer that the number of lanes should be symmetrical on both directions.

I.e.
If you have 2 lanes on the left, then there should be 2 lanes on the right. If you have 3 lanes on one side, then the other side should have 3 as well.

If you have 20 lanes on the left, then build 20 lanes on the right.

IMHO, it's better to be symmetrical


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## Maadeuurija

mcarling said:


> I suspect that the T2/E263 will be 2x2 at least from Tallinn to the T5. Can anyone confirm or refute?


Probably in 15 to 20 years from now, yes...


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## mcarling

Blackraven said:


> Personally, I always prefer that the number of lanes should be symmetrical on both directions.
> 
> I.e.
> If you have 2 lanes on the left, then there should be 2 lanes on the right. If you have 3 lanes on one side, then the other side should have 3 as well.
> 
> If you have 20 lanes on the left, then build 20 lanes on the right.
> 
> IMHO, it's better to be symmetrical


Usually that makes sense, but sometimes it's important to have at least one more lanes exiting an area with few exits than entering, in order to avoid gridlock inside. Also, passing lanes are important going up steep hills, but not going down.


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## Rebasepoiss

More news, guys (but no construction photos, winter is still here -_-).

Although the start of construction for Väo interchange (connecting T1/E20 and T11/E265) has been pushed forward to at least 2017, the construction of new bridges across Pirita river will start quite soon.

A contract was signed to construct 2 new bridges across Pirita river on the T1/E20 here. The combined length of the bridges and the roadway that will be renovated is 600 metres. The current bridges are very narrow and only have 2 lanes in both directions. The new bridges will be 17 metres wide, allowing for 2x4 lanes to accomodate the braking and acceleration lanes for the future Väo interchange. The cost of this project is roughly € 5 million and it should be finished by the end of 2015 :cheers:


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## Rebasepoiss

On the 20th of March a contract was signed for the construction of Kurna interchange on T11/E265/Tallinn bypass.

The project includes:
- 4.4 km of dual carriageway.
- The interchange itself
- A bridge and a tunnel for pedestrians and cyclists.
- 1.5 km of roads for pedestrians and cyclists.
- 4.2 km of collector roads
- 480m of noise barriers
- Reconstruction of 2.7km of Kurna-Tuhala road.

Cost: €20 million
Deadline: end of 2015
Scheme: http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidplaneeringud/1_01_01-01_PLAAN_5000.pdf
----

BTW, a dual carriageway connecting the soon to be U/C Kurna interchange and the recently finished Luige interchange should be finished by the end of 2014. Which means that by the end of 2015 this section of Tallinn bypass will have been built into a dual carriageway with proper interchanges, limited access etc. :cheers: What bums me out, though, is that the speed limit will be 90km/h :bash:


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## RipleyLV

Rebasepoiss said:


> What bums me out, though, is that the speed limit will be 90km/h :bash:


During summer time it won't be raised up to 110 km/h?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ No. They claim it's because the road is situated in a populated area...which in Estonia means that there are 10 houses next to the road :lol: 

I don't really know who makes these kind of decisions in Estonian Road Administration but some of these are just stupid or very difficult to understand.


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## Agnette

Rebasepoiss said:


> On the 20th of March a contract was signed for the construction of Kurna interchange on T11/E265/Tallinn bypass...


This stretch in my video from 17:03


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ with a time stamp


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## Rebasepoiss

Update on the Topi interchange on T4/E67. The pedestrian/cyclist tunnel is completed, the viaduct and the interchange itself is still U/C.

Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@59.339893,24.6140485,16z
Scheme of the U/C interchange: http://www.mnt.ee/public/projektidplaneeringud/Topi_A_osa_asukohaskeem.pdf
Deadline: Autumn 2014
Cost: € 6.66 million



Tin_Can said:


> Ehitatav *Topi liiklussõlm* Pärnu maanteel [E67].
> 
> Valminud kergliiklustunnel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ehitatav Juuliku-Tabasalu ühendustee viadukt üle Pärnu maantee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viadukti rambi muldkeha.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

Rebasepoiss said:


> Cost: € 6.66 million


The devil's interchange :lol:


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ :lol: Well, it's actually € 6,659,759.43 which I rounded up to € 6.66 million


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## Rebasepoiss

2014 map of largest roadworks: http://www.mnt.ee/public/2014_objektid_a3.pdf

Legend:
Red: TEN-T network construction projects
Green: TEN-T network repaving projects
Dark Grey - repaving projects
Brown - paving gravel roads
Wide double line - primary road
Narrow double line - secondary road
Single line - tertiary road
------------
Today a press conference was held, introducing the major roadworks in 2014 but also in the coming years. The presentation itself is in Estonian (http://www.mnt.ee/public/4Pressikonverents_suuremad_teetood_2014_esitlus.pptx) but I also found at least something interesting to show you. Here is the layout for 2+1 highways:


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## T2mmy

Tallinna ringtee projekt!
Tallinn circuit project!

http://www.mnt.ee/public/tee/11/DEST5296.pdf

http://www.mnt.ee/public/tee/11/Loik_2_Juri-Kanama_Tallinna_ringtee_km_126-_290.pdf


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## T2mmy

http://www.mnt.ee/public/tee/11/Loi...ja_Tallinn-Paldiski_maantee_km_240-293_1a.pdf

http://www.mnt.ee/public/tee/11/Loi..._maantee_km_240-293_2a_Eelistatud_variant.pdf

http://www.mnt.ee/public/tee/11/Loi..._maantee_km_114-240_1b_Eelistatud_variant.pdf


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## T2mmy

http://www.mnt.ee/public/tee/11/Loik_5_Harku-Keila_Tallinn-Paldiski_maantee_km_114-240_2b.pdf

http://www.mnt.ee/public/tee/11/Loik_6_Keila_ringtee_ca_65_km.pdf


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ 
That was the preliminary project made in 2006-ish. Some things have change since then. I'll walk you through the bypass section by section.

 Technical (i.e. pretty much final) project for the *Väo-Jüri section *(between T1/E20 and T2/E263): section 1 and section 2. As you can see, around half of the interchanges have been changed in design, including Jüri interchange which will keep its roundabout, although in an improved state. AADT: 10,000 - 12,000. Start of construction for Väo-Jüri section: unknown.
 *Jüri - Kurna interchange section* is U/C, the design is pretty much the same as in the preliminary project. AADT: 14,000. Deadline: end of 2015.
 *Section between Kurna interchange and Luige interchange* is also U/C. AADT: 10,400. Deadline: end of 2014.
 *Luige interchange *has been finished but the design was drastically different from what was drawn up in the preliminary project. The final design: page 1 and page 2
 Nothing has been planned for the *section between Luige interchange and Juuliku interchange*. The AADT is around 8,000 so it's not a top priority.
 *Juuliku interchange *(between T11 and Juuliku-Harku road). This has kept its original design in the technical project, although if and when it gets built is also unknown. The AADT on this section is 7,800.
 *Section between Juuliku interchange and Kanama interchange* (between T11 and T4/E67). Technical project. Start of construction is uknown.
 Nothing has been planned for either *Kanama interchange *nor the *section between Kanama interchange and Keila*. The AADT is above 10,000 next to Saue but around 8,000 on the remaining section.
 The final 3 plans shown in your posts are not part of T11 but T8 (Tallinn-Paldiski highway). Things are rather quiet on that section, apart from the T8 section right next to Keila which will receive an overhaul this year. See plans here. The project pretty much consists of new bridges over Keila river and a few turbo-roundabouts (Estonian road designers have fully embraced the turbo-roundabouts although not all have fully understood its concept )


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## Maadeuurija

T2mmy said:


> Tallinna ringtee projekt!
> Tallinn circuit project!


sõbralik nõuanne, Tallinna ringtee oleks tõlkes Tallinn ringroad


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Yes, it happened in 1998 as a trial run on one section of Tallinn - Narva dual carriageway.

Estonian Road Administration is considering raising the speed limits on dual carriageways to 120 km/h in summer and to 110 km/h in winter in the future, although that would require more winter maintenance and possibly electronic signs.


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## Eiropro

What are plans about building new 2*2 roads (casual or expressways). Are there plans to build 2*2 road east towards Narva? Or Tallinn - Tartu road.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ There are plans to keep widening Tallinn bypass to a dual carriageway. A short 1.6 km stretch just opened and another 4.4 km will open next Autumn. 

There is also a plan to build a dual carriageway on Tallinn - Tartu road from Kose to Ardu - approximately 13 km. Construction should hopefully start in 2016. This road would be on a completely new route, separate from the existing road.

Tallinn - Narva probably won't see any 2x2 projects in the near future. It already has almost 80 km of dual carriageway and the traffic density on the 1x2 parts doesn't justify a widening.

We will probably see 2+1 roads in the future, though, starting from Tallinn - Pärnu highway and then later on Tallinn - Tartu road as well.


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## PovilD

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ There are plans to keep widening Tallinn bypass to a dual carriageway. A short 1.6 km stretch just opened and another 4.4 km will open next Autumn.
> 
> There is also a plan to build a dual carriageway on Tallinn - Tartu road from Kose to Ardu - approximately 13 km. Construction should hopefully start in 2016. This road would be on a completely new route, separate from the existing road.
> 
> Tallinn - Narva probably won't see any 2x2 projects in the near future. It already has almost 80 km of dual carriageway and the traffic density on the 1x2 parts doesn't justify a widening.
> 
> We will probably see 2+1 roads in the future, though, starting from Tallinn - Pärnu highway and then later on Tallinn - Tartu road as well.


Tallinn-Tartu road:
Where will be the end of 2x2 road and start of 2+1 road (if there will no 1+1 left in between)? Is there a plans of 2x2 road near Tartu?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The 2+1 road would actually be built between Põltsamaa and Tartu. Construction will hopefully start in 2018 with the first four sections of 2+1 lanes, each around 1.5 - 2 km in length. 

Tartu bypass is being upgraded step-by-step. Some sections will be 2x2, a couple of interchanges will also be built but it won't be completely grade-separated.


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## PovilD

Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ The 2+1 road would actually be built between Põltsamaa and Tartu. Construction will hopefully start in 2018 with the first four sections of 2+1 lanes, each around 1.5 - 2 km in length.
> 
> Tartu bypass is being upgraded step-by-step. Some sections will be 2x2, a couple of interchanges will also be built but it won't be completely grade-separated.


What minimum AADT should be for building 2x2 road?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Forecasted AADT in 20 years should be at least 14,500.

If you want to look at AADT in 2013, the maps are here:
- for the entire country
- around Tallinn and Tartu
- around other towns


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## Rebasepoiss

Here you can see a video of the almost finished II stage of Tartu Eastern bypass including a new bridge over river Emajõgi. 

Notice the rather tall concrete barriers - those are there not only to act as noise barriers but also to prevent headlights from disturbing the birds at an adjacent Natura 2000 area...make of that what you wish.

----------------------------

In 2016 the construction of the III stage should begin. Here's the latest version for that project:








source


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## Rebasepoiss

I found a video showing the whole Narva-Tallinn road in real time, filmed in September 2013. 

Most interesting places:
40:15 - 44:20 - Jõhvi - Kohtla-Järve dual carriageway
1:30:35 - 1:32:40 - Haljala interchange, including a short stretch of dual carriageway. (BTW, note the distance sign at 1:32:08 - Stockholm 464 )
1:37:00 - Start of the dual carriageway towards Tallinn.
1:38:30 - 1:42:30 - Viitna bypass.
2:09:35 - 2:11:10 - The only 2x3 dual carriageway section in Estonia.






This user also has some other road trip videos, including the whole Narva - Palanga (LT) route.


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## Rebasepoiss

Winter driving can be interesting in Estonia :lol: This was filmed by me on the 27th December on the T2/E263. Sorry for the poor quality.


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## RipleyLV

Are there any ice roads open?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Not yet. The temperatures have been below zero for only a week or so. It takes a lot more than that to form a solid ice cover on the sea. The forecast for the next week is mild temperatures above zero so I wouldn't count on having ice roads any time soon


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## Hasper

Sillamae section of E20 is considered to be the most dangerous stretch of Tallinn - Narva road, mainly because of the same level railroad crossing and high truck traffic. Official AADT is ~5500, but between some of the local roads it is ~9000. The speed limit is 50km/h, trucks form more than 25% of traffic.

Previous E20 Sillamae section project solution has been bashed for being waste of money and unsafe. One of the traffic experts has shown, that even building 2 roundabouts instead of proposed interchanges would be far more efficient money usage. :lol:

Estonian road administration has listened to the criticism, reviewed the solution and ordered a new preproject. 
So now the updated Sillamae section plans looks like this:


Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAPQnlKrgc

And I have to say, that the new solution is far better than the old one.
- 2 interchanges are now conflict free on main road.
- Traffic lights removed. thanks to improved collector road network
- Pedestrian crossings replaced with tunnels. 
- Roundabout replaced with a new interchange.
- Project speed increased from 60km/h to 80km/h.

If everything goes well, construction will start next year (at least for the part on the first screen).



> There is also a plan to build a dual carriageway on Tallinn - Tartu road from Kose to Ardu - approximately 13 km. Construction should hopefully start in 2016. This road would be on a completely new route, separate from the existing road.


 No more money for that hno:. There is still hope on the new government, but the risk is quite hight, that it won't be built.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

^^
Why are the bus stops on the local road and not on the main? The detour that the bus will have to make is quite unpractical


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## makaveli6

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> ^^
> Why are the bus stops on the local road and not on the main? The detour that the bus will have to make is quite unpractical


What's the point of having local roads if you put bus stop on the main one? You usually don't see sidewalks on highways if they have local roads parallel to them.


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## mcarling

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> ^^
> Why are the bus stops on the local road and not on the main? The detour that the bus will have to make is quite unpractical


Stopping on main roads is more dangerous than on local roads. The presence of pedestrians on main roads is more dangerous than on local roads.


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## Rebasepoiss

2014 traffic density numbers are out. *The average AADT rose by 4.1% compared to 2013.* The average AADT on main roads was 4,553 (+3.8%), on secondary roads 1,388 (+4.5%) and on tertiary roads 262 (+4,3%).

The biggest AADT was 31,831 on T4/E67, just outside Talllinn. T1/E20 followed with 24,529 and T2/E263 with 21,315 - all of those numbers were also recorded just outside Tallinn.

The map for traffic density on main roads and secondary roads can be seen here.

More detailed maps of the following areas:
Tallinn
Tartu and Paide
Pärnu and Rakvere
Kohtla-Järve and Viljandi

More information can be found here(in Estonian).


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## Rebasepoiss

I hope Valvejoodik doesn't mind me posting these here:


Valvejoodik said:


> Mõniste-Ape
> Road number 68 (Latvian P19) reconstruction is almost finished:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mõniste now has proper sidewalks and lighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Previously the road had slopes all the way (can be seen on the left)- perfect for wannabe rally-drivers
> 
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> Metsavenna talu
> 
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> River Vaidava on the left
> 
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> 
> Entering Latvia. Fun fact: before the reconstruction when the road was FULL of holes, the limit was 90km/h (if I do remember correctly). Now there is only 70 and 50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ape now also has sidewalks and lighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ape and nice roundabout. Btw, I really like this small town, it's centre looks really cosy and one street is paved with cobblestones. Though, to get to the highway, you need to use gravel road (maybe it was also reconstructed, not sure...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the way back: Somehow on the NEW road there are holes right on the border crossing, seems to be Latvian side. These better be fixed soon or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back in Estonia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Road and river are close and to avoid erosion by the river, they have reinforced the riverbed next to the road.


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## Valvejoodik

Nope, not at all


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## SvMp

What's the current situation at the Saatse boot? Is there some information about when the Russian-Estonian border will be changed there?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ In 2014 it was around 7,700. 

2014 AADT map: http://www.mnt.ee/public/Lisa12_AKOL2014_pohitugi.pdf


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## Rebasepoiss

2015 sees the start of construction on another interchange on Tallinn bypass.

Location

Plan:


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## RHPLUS

Is Estonia planning, in the near future, to build a highway to Latvia, Lithuania and Poland?


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## mcarling

RHPLUS said:


> Is Estonia planning, in the near future, to build a highway to Latvia, Lithuania and Poland?


The Via Baltica: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E67


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## Rebasepoiss

RHPLUS said:


> Is Estonia planning, in the near future, to build a highway to Latvia, Lithuania and Poland?


No. There is no money nor the traffic density to justify a motorway. 

The AADT between Tallinn and Pärnu is between 6,000 and 7,000. 
The AADT between Pärnu and the Latvian border is 3,000-4,000.

The priorities for building dual carriageways are:
- Tallinn bypass. It has an AADT of 8,000 - 13,000 of which 15-20% is lorries. This is being carried out step-by-step (or interchange by interchange, should I say). If everything goes well we will have around 20 km of dual carriageway by 2020 on Tallinn bypass. Not a quick pace but progress nonetheless. The wording in the plan is not quite clear on whether it will reach T1/E20 or not but hopefully it will.
- Tallinn-Tartu road, especially between Kose and Mäo. The AADT is around 7,700 but it's more of a political/regional development project. There is political will to finish the Kose-Mäo (40 km) section by the end of 2020 but there is no money for it. Estonia could easily borrow that money due to our very low level of debt but it probably won't happen because of politics. I imagine that we will have a PPP scheme spread out for 20 years instead (if the road gets built at all, of course)


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## ChrisZwolle

What about a four-lane highway with only interchanges at busy intersections? That way you can eliminate head-on crashes, provide continuous passing options without having the cost of a motorway. 

6,000 - 7,000 vehicles per day is a bit too low for a full-standard motorway, but in many parts of the world four-lane divided highways are built at such routes serving long-distance traffic.


----------



## mcarling

Rebasepoiss said:


> There is no money nor the traffic density to justify a motorway.


Upgrading the Via Baltica is not a high priority for Estonia. Tallinn-Tartu is, for example, a higher priority. However, the Via Baltica is a higher priority for the EU than it is for Estonia, so EU funds are available to cover most of the cost. The remaining cost is still a lot of money for Estonia and still not a high priority.

As proficiency in English becomes more widespread and as living standards rise in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland, traffic density will increase. There are concrete plans with funding to upgrade parts of the Via Baltica in Lithuania and Poland to 2x2 expressways, which will also result in some level (how much is debatable) of induced demand increase. Similarly, there are concrete plans in Latvia to upgrade a few bottlenecks along the Via Baltica, such as the Kekava bypass.

However, if you have in mind a 2x2 expressway all the way from Tallinn to Warsaw, I cannot imagine that before about 2040 at the earliest, if ever.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> What about a four-lane highway with only interchanges at busy intersections? That way you can eliminate head-on crashes, provide continuous passing options without having the cost of a motorway.
> 
> 6,000 - 7,000 vehicles per day is a bit too low for a full-standard motorway, but in many parts of the world four-lane divided highways are built at such routes serving long-distance traffic.


It currently seems that the Estonian Road Administration prefers a 2+1 solution with at-grade junctions where the AADT doesn't justify a grade-separated dual carriageway. The estimated cost for upgrading an existing 1x2 highway to a 2+1 highway is € 0.8-1.2 million per km. The cost for building a grade-separated dual carriageway is € 4-5 million.

Most of the older dual carriageways have at-grade junctions anyway (mostly with U-turns not left turns) but they are problematic in terms of safety so I'm not a fan of those as well.



mcarling said:


> Upgrading the Via Baltica is not a high priority for Estonia. Tallinn-Tartu is, for example, a higher priority. However, the Via Baltica is a higher priority for the EU than it is for Estonia, so EU funds are available to cover most of the cost. The remaining cost is still a lot of money for Estonia and still not a high priority.


Yeah, EU money is already being used to its full extent on other projects such as building Tallinn bypass. Tallinn-Ikla motorway would cost around €900 million (at €5 million per km). That's 5 years' worth of our state roads budget, including the EU support. 

I doubt that even in the far future it will become viable unless we are struck by a strong influx of immigrants (which is unlikely).


----------



## RHPLUS

I think that the construction of the Via Baltica highway is important for Estonia for greater economic integration with the EU. For Estonia, it should be the most important investment in future development. Poland plans to complete construction of its section to the border with Lithuania before y. 2022.


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## sotonsi

Any reason why Latvia and Estonia couldn't agree to upgrade Riga-Tartu, and have the Via Baltica motorway go that way?

OK, it's about 100km (25%) more, but would meet Estonia's desires better.


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## mcarling

sotonsi said:


> Any reason why Latvia and Estonia couldn't agree to upgrade Riga-Tartu, and have the Via Baltica motorway go that way?
> 
> OK, it's about 100km (25%) more, but would meet Estonia's desires better.


All the Riga - Tallinn traffic would continue to use the direct route. The Riga - Tartu section would be underutilized -- unless Warsaw to St Petersburg via Tartu could become a popular route, but I think the freight would go by sea and the passengers by air.


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## sotonsi

mcarling said:


> All the Riga - Tallinn traffic would continue to use the direct route.


Sure, but this is a political thing to have a motorway to Tallinn, not justified by traffic. The through traffic was never going to add much anyway.

cf Rapid City, SD to Billings, MT in the states. The straight route, taken by the (very low) amount of through traffic (as it's a flat, straight route through empty prairie) is US212. Interstate 90, however, takes a lengthy diversion via Sheridan, WY as it serves a more useful traffic function than the direct route.


> The Riga - Tartu section would be underutilized


The whole thing is going to be underutilised!


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## mcarling

sotonsi said:


> cf Rapid City, SD to Billings, MT in the states. The straight route, taken by the (very low) amount of through traffic (as it's a flat, straight route through empty prairie) is US212. Interstate 90, however, takes a lengthy diversion via Sheridan, WY as it serves a more useful traffic function than the direct route.


I make Rapid City, SD to Billings, MT via I-90 to be 17% longer than via US212. I make Tallinn to Riga to be 40% longer via Tartu than the direct route.


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## Rebasepoiss

Just for the sake of it, I did a very simplified traffic calculation for the section of Via Baltica with the lowest AADT (near EE/LV border).

Traffic density grew 1.62 times between 2004 and 2014 and that's above the national average. If we use the same growth rate for the future we get:

2014 - 3,000
2024 - 5,600
2035 - 9,000
2045 - 14,600

Considering this, it would be reasonable to start construction in 2035-2040 *if* the traffic keeps growing at the same rate.

There has been an ongoing planning process since 2009 to set the route for upgrading Via Baltica to a "motorway" in Estonia between Tallinn and Pärnu. The section between Pärnu and the Latvian border will remain a 2x1 road in the foreseeable future.


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## RHPLUS

This is a fallacy.
Mathematics is a very exact science, if you enter the correct input.
In this argument lacks basic parameter:
The very existence of the highway causes the development of the surrounding areas and causes multiplication of traffic.
This is due to many years of experience in America.


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## Kanadzie

I think existence of highway making traffic multiplication is only half-true
the highway would permit the traffic multiplication that is already "desired"
but it cannot bring it from nowhere

The obvious example would be an undeveloped area next to a large city, presence of highway would spur development since there is demand for land in the city
But far away from anything the highway brings essentially nothing (like say rural Texas or Montana)


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## RV

Well Finland got EU funding for Hamina-Russian border-motorway with AADT 4000-7000 but a very high percent of trucks with 20 Km queues nowadays in the old road, so I can't imagine why it couldn't finance a great deal of the Via Baltica to upgrade it to a full motorway. In Poland, they have been doing really great improvements. Bialystok is still a mess, but very many towns are by-passed by an expressway on the route. In Lithuania, it is a good-quality 1+1-road and could be easily upgraded. In Latvia, the by-passing of Riga remains of Soviet-time-roads... 2x1=shit.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

RV said:


> In Latvia, the by-passing of Riga remains of Soviet-time-roads...


Only the part over the hydro-dam is Soviet and some 7km of A4 aren't very good. The hydro-dam part should be resurfaced this year, if I'm not mistaken.

A1 through Baltezers doesn't have the space to be widened to 2+2. At best it could be 2+1.


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## ChrisZwolle

Białystok is actually not that bad for through traffic that follows DK8, it is better than it may look on a map. The northern bypass is mostly a controlled-access expressway. There are only 2 or 3 traffic lights to get from S8 onto DK8 or DK19 north of the city.


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## RV

A bit off-topic, but how are the villages signed from Via Baltica, for example, in Lithuania? No electricity (it was evening to night but not lights at all, only something burning in an old Kolhoz!), and just signs like "Bitaslikulai 3 km" or something like that  So what are those villages like? Back when I was driving the Via with my father, he said it was not safe to divert the main road to have a look.


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## Rebasepoiss

RV said:


> Well Finland got EU funding for Hamina-Russian border-motorway with AADT 4000-7000 but a very high percent of trucks with 20 Km queues nowadays in the old road, so I can't imagine why it couldn't finance a great deal of the Via Baltica to upgrade it to a full motorway.


The EU money pile is finite and has to be distributed between different projects by the member state itself. For Estonia there are projects with far bigger benefits than upgrading Via Baltica to a motorway. A 1x2 road with 4,000 cars a day is perfectly fine.

BTW, truck queues on the Russian border were solved by an electronic queue system in Estonia which means you can reserve a certain time slot for crossing the border and not waste time by stading on the side of the road.


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## OulaL

Rebasepoiss said:


> The priorities for building dual carriageways are:
> - Tallinn bypass. It has an AADT of 8,000 - 13,000 of which 15-20% is lorries. This is being carried out step-by-step (or interchange by interchange, should I say). If everything goes well we will have around 20 km of dual carriageway by 2020 on Tallinn bypass.


What about moving the Helsinki-Tallinn car ferries to Muuga (and correspondingly Vuosaari) bypassing both city centres? For passengers there could be a train connection, the railway is there already anyway. And in Helsinki it wouldn't require that much to continue with the metro to the port.

Hydrofoil services, that mostly serve foot passengers anyway, could still be centre to centre.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Talinn-Helsinki line is still first and foremost a passenger line so the benefits of having a passenger harbour close to the city centre outweigh the downside of a bit of traffic, at least in my opinion. At least I wouldn't want to add another hour to spend going to and from the port. 

Hydrofoil services cater to a very small fraction of passengers on the line. Besides, they don't run during harsh weather or during the winter period.

The Western harbour in Helsinki has a good connection to the Finnish road network - it's only around 2 km from a motorway. The central terminals are a bit worse in terms of truck traffic, it seems. In Tallinn there's a plan to upgrade the route leading to the harbour.


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## NFZANMNIM

Can someone please explain this? found this on Hungarian Wiki, is it a legit future motorway plan?


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## Wover

That table is just listing some of the main roads in Estonia, which are locally referred to as Tx (so T1, T2, T4, rather than Kx in the article).

T1, T2 and T4 all have some stretches of motorway-like 2x2, but most of them are not entirely grade-separated and the speed limit is 90 in winter and 110 in summer.

Some people have wild dreams of T2 becoming a full motorway from Tallinn to Tatru (190km more or less), but given the traffic volumes there isn't much need. T4, the Via Baltica through the Baltics to Poland only has a very small portion of 2x2, the rest is one lane. There are no plans to turn T4 into a motorway, since traffic is very low, especially between Pärnu and the Latvian border.


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## ssh

Wover said:


> locally referred to as Tx (so T1, T2, T4, rather than Kx in the article).


Odd, I have actually never seen or heard the T... designation used for Estonian roads outside this forum.


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## NFZANMNIM

well the K stands forr Kiirtee rather than just Tee. that would be an upgrade I suppose...


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## Wover

The "T"- designation is also used by Estonia's Road Administration (Maanteeamet).

The K-designation is not used anywhere and I don't think it will be used in the future for roads with a motorway status. If you google "K4 Tallinn Pärnu" for example you get almost no results at all, so I think someone just made it up..


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## Rebasepoiss

ssh said:


> Odd, I have actually never seen or heard the T... designation used for Estonian roads outside this forum.


A couple example from T* being used: http://www.mnt.ee/failid/Tartu_maantee_eile_tana_homme.pdf ; http://www.mnt.ee/public/keskkonnakaitse/ARUANNE_T4_2008.pdf

Realistically only road buffs use road numbers in Estonia. The large majority of people have no clue what numbers roads have.


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## PovilD

Rebasepoiss said:


> A couple example from T* being used: http://www.mnt.ee/failid/Tartu_maantee_eile_tana_homme.pdf ; http://www.mnt.ee/public/keskkonnakaitse/ARUANNE_T4_2008.pdf
> 
> Realistically only road buffs use road numbers in Estonia. The large majority of people have no clue what numbers roads have.


The same thing in Lithuania too - everybody use terms like "Kaunas-Vilnius" "Šiauliai-Panevėžys" or "Road to Utena" instead, and don't even have a clue where is the road A10 or A16 :nuts:

Destination signage is the thing that can be unreliable (many locals didn't use those signs anyway), so I think that's a reason why road numbers are so unknown for everybody.


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## makaveli6

In Latvia the situation has got better in the past years. People generally don't use the numbers, but most of the drivers know that f.e. A1 is Rīga-Ainaži and so on.


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## Valvejoodik

I suppose that most estonians also know that Tallinn-Narva is road number 1 and Tallinn-Tartu is nr. 2, but apart from these two, no one knows more (If not Tallinn-Pärnu also)... And to be honest, who in real life can remember all these numbers about smaller roads


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## Maadeuurija

Valvejoodik said:


> I suppose that most estonians also know that Tallinn-Narva is road number 1 and Tallinn-Tartu is nr. 2, but apart from these two, no one knows more (If not Tallinn-Pärnu also)... And to be honest, who in real life can remember all these numbers about smaller roads


At least I know where nr 24 is :lol:


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## makaveli6

Valvejoodik said:


> I suppose that most estonians also know that Tallinn-Narva is road number 1 and Tallinn-Tartu is nr. 2, but apart from these two, no one knows more (If not Tallinn-Pärnu also)... And to be honest, who in real life can remember all these numbers about smaller roads


Well, I know every single A (1-15) and P (1-137) road in Latvia. :lol:


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## PovilD

Valvejoodik said:


> I suppose that most estonians also know that Tallinn-Narva is road number 1 and Tallinn-Tartu is nr. 2, but apart from these two, no one knows more (If not Tallinn-Pärnu also)... And to be honest, who in real life can remember all these numbers about smaller roads


Well, majority of Lithuanians know that A1 is an 'autostrada from Vilnius to Palanga' (A13 is not very known even in Klaipėda region ). Lithuania the most decentralized country in Baltic region, so only residents of certain region knows the numbers of the road (Some Vilnius residents knows where is autostrada A2, Minsk road A3, while residents of other cities don't)


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## crazy-driver

Valvejoodik said:


> I suppose that most estonians also know that Tallinn-Narva is road number 1 and Tallinn-Tartu is nr. 2


I thought via Baltica is most important road.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

I don't think they number it based on importance, do they?


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## kapo311

crazy-driver said:


> I thought via Baltica is most important road.


The nrs have nothing to do with importance, apart from the fact that single digits numbers are for main highways, double digits secondary roads and triple digits local roads.

Via baltica is nr 4, but in terms of importance i would say it's 3rd.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Well, not quite. T10, T11 and T92 are also main highways, the last one being a sort of an oddity. 


Via Baltica is definitely a very important cargo route - AADT for trucks is 1,000 - 1,400. Only Tallinn bypass has more truck traffic.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

It is an important cargo route, but how will Rail Baltica affect it? Number of trucks will probably decrease, no?


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## Rebasepoiss

MattiG said:


> Then there is a parking space at the SE sector. Where is the exit route to the south? Around the roundabout?
> 
> The junction lies close to Tallinn downtown. It is quite common need to include access roads to the local streets in such situations. Because they potentially increase the complexity (and thus the accident risk level), they should be planned more carefully than standard junctions.


The empty space next to the parking lot is actually reserved for a petrol station but yes, you are correct, there is no direct access south from that rest area. 

The problem with this interchange is that it was planned based on the wishes of Tallinn city government and not road engineers or traffic planners. Since the interchange is so heavily designed around the petrol station, it smells a lot like corruption but this would be nothing new in Tallinn.


RipleyLV said:


> Yeah, interesting that the project does not feature the same access the other way around, since IMO it is one of the main key points on why this interchange has to be rebuild. More mature variant was the first one that I saw:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, this one looks more practical and safe, but then again more expensive. So it's understandable that the project got downgraded by the authorities.


Yes, from a traffic standpoint this would've been the preferred solution. However, it was too big and would've partially been in a landscape protection area (striped area on the map). 

Tallinn city government also didn't approve of this because it didn't provide direct local access to the 5(!!!) households next to the river.


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## RipleyLV

Rebasepoiss said:


> Yes, from a traffic standpoint this would've been the preferred solution. However, it was too big and would've partially been in a landscape protection area (striped area on the map).


What a silly excuse. I agree that in the map above it is presented huge, which would better fit in some rural or more spacious area. However, who's fault was that? I'm sure the planners were aware of the surrounding obstacles, they could've made the same interchange layout only with an elaborate approach.

For example, I multiplied current Väo interchange with the same planned layout of an existing interchange in Wrocław. It looks a lot smaller and more compact, and more could've been done. 










I would like to think, that who ever made that huge interchange, lost that idea due to wrong impression.



> Tallinn city government also didn't approve of this because it didn't provide direct local access to the 5(!!!) households next to the river.


Oh come on..


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ I agree with everything you've said. The process for creating a detail plan (which isn't even necessary to build an interchange in Estonia) has taken the city over 10 years and still isn't done. That's the only reason this interchange is still unbuilt.


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## GROBIN

Hi! 
I'm driving from Vilnius to Tallinn in May with 3 friends. I hate driving behind trucks all the time (which is what basically happens each time I drive to Riga, on the Panevėžys-Pasvalys and on the Bauska-Ķekava stretches. 
I haven't been in Estonia since 2003, so I'd like to know whether there are many trucks driving on the Via Baltica, how is its condition overall. 
I'd also like to know whether an alternative road like through Kolovere is a reasonable alternative
Thanks in advance 

P.S.: I will post similar questions on the LT & EST forums. My question here is only about the Estonian part.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The quickest way is definitely Via Baltica, the road surface quality is also good. That being said, it does have a lot of trucks compared to most other roads in Estonia. The section between LV/EST border and Pärnu has low traffic density so overtaking trucks shouldn't be an issue. If you want to choose a more interesting route from Pärnu to Tallinn, I'd suggest going via Järvakandi and Rapla like this. The road quality is not as good as on the main roads, of course, but I think it's still driveable. The worst part is probably between Kaisma and Rapla, everything else should be fine.

If you are using Via Baltica be aware of speed cameras (check here for all the locations of speed cameras in Estonia. You can also download the app "kiiruskaamerad" to warn you.) Waze is also quite popular in Estonia to watch out for police patrols. 

Before starting your trip you can also check here for roadworks that might affect your trip. The beginning of May is not the busiest period for roadworks yet so it shouldn't be too bad.


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## Rebasepoiss

2+1 road construction on road nr.4/E67 near Pärnu:









































Source


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## Rebasepoiss

Lagedi interchange on Tallinn bypass:

























Juuliku section on Tallinn bypass:

































Source: http://www.maaamet.ee/fotoladu/


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## Valvejoodik

Just for the info: road is not actually wavy, it's just the optical (de)effect


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## Rebasepoiss

A few aerial photos of the III stage of Tartu Eastern bypass from September 23:
Location:http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/58.3689/26.7813




























Source: www.maaamet.ee/fotoladu/


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## Rebasepoiss

The Saku-Kanama (5 km) section on Tallinn bypass was finished earlier this Autumn. You can find it on this map. You can also see that the whole Eastern part of the bypass is currently under construction.

A couple of photos of Saku-Kanama section:
















Source

And a short aerial video of Juuliku interchange:


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## eucitizen

Are there any plans to make a new road border post between Narva and Ivangorod to bypass the 2 cities' centres?


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ No, especially in today's political climate. Besides, a new border control terminal was opened just 2 years ago: https://news.postimees.ee/3267207/n...-vehicle-terminal?gallery=57841&image=4299743 

There's also a pedestrian-only border crossing in Narva that was recently renovated: http://www.err.ee/639955/ule-kahe-aasta-ootamist-narva-2-piiripunkt-taasavati-jalakaijatele


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## Rebasepoiss

The construction of Kose-Ardu-Võõbu section on T2/E263 is now underway, starting with groundworks in the northernmost part. The whole section is expected to be finished by the end of 2020.

You can see the start of groundworks in this video from around a month ago:


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## Eulanthe

eucitizen said:


> Are there any plans to make a new road border post between Narva and Ivangorod to bypass the 2 cities' centres?


There's no real need. Estonia has the 'electronic queue' meaning that traffic doesn't enter Narva until they're called to the border crossing, while the Russian side of the crossing could handle significantly more traffic, but they choose not to do so. The Narva-1 terminal could easily handle significantly more traffic than it does today, but with Russian controls being slow, they would simply choke the center of Narva (as they used to, until the electronic queue was launched).


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## ChrisZwolle

Estonia will also introduce a truck toll starting 1/1/18. It is a completely electronic toll where you need to register and pay online.

Tolls range from € 12 for one day to € 1000 for a year (assuming a euro 6 heavy truck).

https://teetasu.ee/

This makes Finland the last country in the EU without a truck toll.


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## marciomaco

^^

I don't remember Portugal having it...


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## ChrisZwolle

Almost all motorways in Portugal are tolled. 

The countries with few or no tolled motorways or other form of tolls for trucks;

* Albania
* Cyprus
* Finland
* Iceland
* Kosovo
* Malta
* Moldova
* Montenegro
* San Marino
* Ukraine

So apart from mini states, only Cyprus and Finland have no toll roads for trucks in the EU.


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## Rebasepoiss

2017 had the lowest number of road-traffic deaths in Estonia since the 1940s. The numbers for the past few years are as follows:

2014: 77
2015: 67
2016: 71
2017: 48

That being said, the number of people injured in traffic accidents has remained rather stable at around 1,700-1,800 since 2010. This shows that the traffic environment itself hasn't become that much safer in the past 7 years (if at all) but rather the severity of the accidents has become lower, probably due to safer cars. The average age of cars is still significantly higher in Estonia than it is in Western Europe so there is still room for improvement in that area, especially when it comes to preventative safety measures e.g. AEB systems.

Fortunately, the roads are slowly but surely being made safer as well thanks to traffic calming measures, separate pedestrian/bike paths next to rural roads near settlements etc.


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## Rebasepoiss

The dual carriageway construction on T2/E263 on the Kose-Ardu-Võõbu section is now clearly visible on satellite imagery:

The whole section:









Kose-Risti interchange:









Ardu interchange:









Construction works are also moving ahead on Tallinn bypass.

This is Lagedi interchange on the top right:









And on this aerial photo:









Lagedy interchange is pretty much finished with only minor works to be done:









Work is now also being done on the Lagedi-Väo section:


















Satellite imagery is from EO Browser - Sentinel Hub
Aerial photos have been taken from Estonian Land Board's database.


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## Rebasepoiss

Preliminary design for phase II of Tartu Western bypass reconstruction, construction is expected to start already in 2020.
(Location)

T2/E263 interchange with T3/E264. It combines a turbo roundabout with a 2x1 viaduct along E263.









T2/E263 crossing with Aardla street:









T3/E264 intersection with Aardla street:


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## Rebasepoiss

Video showing the current state of Kose-Ardu-Võõbu construction on T2/E263. The road bed is mostly finished and it's being let to set for a year before construction on the road itself is resumed. Work on other earthworks and viaducts is still ongoing, though.




Not my video. Credit goes to janno9898 on Youtube.


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## Valvejoodik

Ei tea palju masinatel turvasensoreid tööle pandi?


----------



## geogregor

Ok, some more road shots, getting closer to Tallinn:

DSC07395 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07396 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07397 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07398 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07399 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07400 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Surface is getting worse closer to Tallinn:

DSC07401 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Hwy 4, main road to Tallinn from the south. In dire need of repair:

DSC07404 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC07405 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07406 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07407 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07408 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07409 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07410 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Inside Tallinn road gets pretty bad:

DSC07412 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

But there were some better stretches too:

DSC07414 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## geogregor

DSC07415 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07416 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07417 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07418 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07419 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Tunnel under the railway:

DSC07420 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07422 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

That's it from then on we used trains


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## Valvejoodik

That "in need of dire repairs" part was repaired this and last year by a Finnish company (Lemminkäinen). Those long "line" patches (new patch is visible on the left lane) are renovated in one go: A long convoy of special vehicles drives over it, milling part of asphalt surface at front, then cleaning and heating the milled surface. After that it lays a fresh layer of asphalt into the milled part. Ofc the process might be a bit more "technical" but that was just a simplified version.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ A much better option would've been to apply the same technique to the whole road surface (which has been done a lot elsewhere in Estonia). Using it only for the "driving strips" doesn't get rid of the general undulations that come with the aging of a road surface. It only postpones a complete overhaul for a couple of years.


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## MichiH

Rebasepoiss said:


> Tallinn bypass km 0-3. Construction started last Autumn, couldn't find the exact month. Construction is expected to finish in November this year.


OSM shows it opened. Is the section really in service now? Does anyone know the exact when the 2nd carriageway was opened for traffic? Or minimum whether it happened in November or in first week of December?


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## Valvejoodik

Both ways were in use already 2-3 weeks ago.


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## romanzone

The section is really in service, but there is one temporary traffic light which will remain there for maybe a year or two...


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## Rebasepoiss

This article (in Estonian) explains the situation a bit, although it doesn't go into much detail: https://www.err.ee/866735/uus-vao-loik-pakub-14-miljoni-eest-esmaklassilist-maanteed. It looks like there were issues with acquiring the land needed to build the connector roads between the on- and offramps and the Veneküla tunnel (interchange design for reference: here). Rather than going through the hassle of dealing with courts (it seems), the Estonian Road Administration has decided to change the project instead. The new solution will take around 2 years to be implemented, though. Hopefully by that time the Väo interchange between Tallinn bypass and E20 will also have been finished.


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## Kemo

Found on the website of Polish road agency  (article discussing Via Baltica)


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## Uppsala

geogregor said:


> [url=https://flic.kr/p/2caf2PE]
> DSC07419 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> DSC07422 by Geogregor*, on Flickr



What is the difference between blue signs and red signs?

And why is the blue sign upside down? The red is turned in the right direction. But the blue is upside down. Why?

Are the blue sings always upside down in Estonia?

I think only Estonia has these signs upside down.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ Yes, the blue sign is always upside down and yes, it is completely stupid. I've no idea why they haven't changed it. It makes no sense in the context of the logic of those striped signs. I seem to remember, though, that some other countries have used the upside down sign in the past but have now changed it.


Anyways, the red sign shows a slip road with a maximum speed of 50 km/h or less whereas the blue one shows a maximum speed higher than 50 km/h (in the photo above it's 70 km/h). The problem is that for the vast majority of people the colour difference means absolutely nothing.


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## MattiG

Uppsala said:


> What is the difference between blue signs and red signs?
> 
> And why is the blue sign upside down? The red is turned in the right direction. But the blue is upside down. Why?
> 
> Are the blue sings always upside down in Estonia?
> 
> I think only Estonia has these signs upside down.


Those signs are not standardized neither by the Vienna Convention nor any other body. Thus, I would not use the term "upside down", because there is no baseline to compare with.

The Estonian arrowhead down model is logical, because it matches with the road markings of the triangle as well as with the Y shape of the exit. The arrowhead up model, originated from Sweden I believe, does not have this logic. It might be logical in some other sense. Anyway, it is not in very wide use: in Nordics and many roads in Germany.

Still, in my opinion, the French etc style (arrowheads pointing to the left and right) and the Swiss etc style (block arrow) are more logical than the arrow upwards/downwards models.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The logic (IMO) for the red sign is that it's actually two of these signs put together (don't mind the yellow background, that's for roadworks):









Which means you are able to drive on that side of the sign which the stripes are falling towards.


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## Uppsala

MattiG said:


> Those signs are not standardized neither by the Vienna Convention nor any other body. Thus, I would not use the term "upside down", because there is no baseline to compare with.
> 
> The Estonian arrowhead down model is logical, because it matches with the road markings of the triangle as well as with the Y shape of the exit. The arrowhead up model, originated from Sweden I believe, does not have this logic. It might be logical in some other sense. Anyway, it is not in very wide use: in Nordics and many roads in Germany.
> 
> Still, in my opinion, the French etc style (arrowheads pointing to the left and right) and the Swiss etc style (block arrow) are more logical than the arrow upwards/downwards models.




I thought the "Swedish" arrowhead up model was from Germany. Every German exit or sliproad has this arrowhead up "Swedish" model. Also in Poland, the "Swedish" arrowhead up model is used. Also Slovenia has it.

And there are many more countries than that.

So that's a Swedish model that came to Germany and more countries?

Anyway, I think the arrowhead up model is more logical because you drive on that side of the sign which the stripes are falling towards. Therefore, I think the Estonian arrowhead down model is strange.


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## Uppsala

geogregor said:


> DSC07404 by Geogregor*, on Flickr



In this picture, it just looks like a real motorway. But in Estonia there are no motorway signs. Why?

It's not just this way in Estonia that looks like this. There are parts of the E20 in Estonia that could also have motorway signs. It is exits that meet the standard for motorways on those parts of the E20.

Some roads in Estonia are even better than some roads in other countries that have motorway signs.

But there are no motorway signs. There are no expressway signs either, which would otherwise have been logical.

Why no motorway signs in Estonia? Are there any plans to set up motorway signs on roads such as the E20?


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## Maadeuurija

Uppsala said:


> ..//..
> 
> Why no motorway signs in Estonia? Are there any plans to set up motorway signs on roads such as the E20?


It seems to be behind really tough regulations for motorways, which include a lot more daily traffic (around 10k vehicles per day?), lighting along the entire road length, intersections have to be quite far away from each other, there can be no left or U-turns, lanes should be even wider + the winter maintenance requirements are insane. So, instead we have the dual carriageways, which have higher than usual speed limit (up to 110km/h) during summer and relaxed requirements compared to motorways which in turn can save a lot of money for the government (in building and maintenance)


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## MichiH

^^ AADT, lightning and winter maintenance are not relevant for motorway standard. U turns are not allowed on motorways though.

I think there are some sections in Estonia which do have grade-separated interchanges and no U turns but no motorway or expressway signs. Maybe because there are no parallel roads for slow traffic?


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## sponge_bob

Kanadzie said:


> Are these "new" Swedish 2+2 standards basically the German standards of 1930's? :lol:


No. The Germans has no real standards back then and they had no 100kph limits either. And they are not new in Sweden, they are around 20 years old.


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## Rebasepoiss

sponge_bob said:


> I randomly dropped streetview on 4 spots on the T4 1 2 3 4
> 
> Looks like an easy 2+2 retrofit to me. I think 2+1 is crazy.


What makes 2x2 much more expensive than 2+1 is the interchanges, collector roads, grade-separated crossings etc not the extra lane itself. 

For example, Kernu bypass on T4/E67 will have a grade-separated interchange and it will be on a completely new route. This immediately raises the cost to nearly € 3 million/km. In that case I completely agree with you, 2+1 is pointless. However, I believe the new viaducts and interchanges are built with a future expansion to 2x2 in mind so if the government does finally decide to upgrade Via Baltica (or parts of it) to 2x2, it can be done relatively easily afterwards.


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## RipleyLV

I don't see the fetish you guys having towards making The Via Baltica 2+2 with grade separated junctions. The traffic volumes are relatively low for a motorway-like road there. The parts where the infrastructure meets it's demand is already built or will be built.


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## RipleyLV

sponge_bob said:


> Safety. It is the only long distance route in Estonia and the one most likely to have tired drivers.


Funny. This sounds more like personal problem consolidation with others infrastructure.


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## Maadeuurija

sponge_bob said:


> Safety. It is the only long distance route in Estonia and the one most likely to have tired drivers. It is not like Estonia is massive either, Finland is much bigger relative to the population. Other countries tried every cheap version of 1+1 and 2+1 before deciding they are basically shite in safety terms.


Unless you actually have driven here or live here, the argument that it's the ONLY long distance route is invalid or the statement that it's the one with highest risk for tired drivers.

IMHO T2 and the 1+1 section of T1 is more dangerous than the T4. but yes, the percentage or trucks is really high on via baltica and yes the safety needs to be improved. But, we have to consider the real needs and capabilty over here. The T4 is quite straight compared to the T1 after Rakvere or the T2 between Kose and Tartu. And as said before the highest risk on these roads are the head-on collisions (which are mostly caused by trying to overtake a "slower" vehicle in the wrong place * read curves* ) which can be easily avoided by building the 2+1 sections. 

And it doesn't really make sense to build a a grade seperated 2+2 road in places where the AADT is around only 5000 vehicles.


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## bleetz

Sponge_Bob is known for going around SSC posting negative stuff about countries East of Berlin (especially Baltic States), whether it’s about politics, banking or roads. So I’d suggest you take what he says with a pinch of salt, he’s basically a troll.


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## sponge_bob

bleetz said:


> he’s basically a troll.


You are that.


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## MattiG

bleetz said:


> Sponge_Bob is known for going around SSC posting negative stuff about countries East of Berlin (especially Baltic States), whether it’s about politics, banking or roads. So I’d suggest you take what he says with a pinch of salt, he’s basically a troll.


Calling people trolls because of their wrong opinions is quite old-fashioned.


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## Kanadzie

Rebasepoiss said:


> What makes 2x2 much more expensive than 2+1 is the interchanges, collector roads, grade-separated crossings etc not the extra lane itself.


why not just 2x2 with grade intersections? Is not so bad if the cross-roads are low traffic...


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## PovilD

bleetz said:


> Sponge_Bob is known for going around SSC posting negative stuff about countries East of Berlin (especially Baltic States), whether it’s about politics, banking or roads. So I’d suggest you take what he says with a pinch of salt, he’s basically a troll.


He's just disagreeing with 2+1 standard in general. This is all I know about him  I don't feel nothing bad or negative about it.


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## Rebasepoiss

Kanadzie said:


> why not just 2x2 with grade intersections? Is not so bad if the cross-roads are low traffic...


I'm not sure but I think it's because most drivers assume that if it's a dual carriageway it's much safer than a single carriageway. This creates a false sense of security which might actually decrease the overall level of safety. I'm not against having some direct access on low-AADT sections of 2x2 but U-turns left turns are very dangerous on 2x2 IMO.


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## Rebasepoiss

There's now an interactive map of AADT on Estonian roads: https://arcg.is/1CDv8b

You can choose different layers:

2018 AADT
2018 AADT for lorries (12+m long).
2017 AADT
2018 vs 2017 AADT growth %

------------------------

Also, a contract was signed for the Luige-Saku section of Tallinn bypass to be reconstructed into 2x2. It's the last section of Tallinn bypass between E67 and E20 that is still 1x2, the rest is already 2x2. This section is 4 km long, it will have a an overpass for moose and a viaduct over the new Rail Baltic railway that's yet to be built. The cost for the whole project is € 19 million and is estimated to be finished by 2nd quarter of 2021.


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## ElviS77

sponge_bob said:


> Other countries tried every cheap version of 1+1 and 2+1 before deciding they are basically shite in safety terms.


Somewhat OT, but still: People in the country where 2+1 roads are most widespread don't seem to think they're particularily unsafe, even with 110 km/h limits. Since Sweden also happens to be a country with some of the safest roads in the world, I'd say it's fairly safe to assume that the 2+1s play some part in that. Obviously, such roads aren't as safe as proper motorways, but they come pretty close, particularly when traffic volumes are moderate. And if your options basically are, say, 100 kms of modernized 2+1 road or 25 kms of shiny new motorway when AADT drops below 10K, there's clearly only one sensible solution.


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## ChrisZwolle

Sweden had the benefit that many main roads were built on a very wide platform that required little investment to turn them into 2+1 roads. I don't think Sweden would've had as much 2+1 if they required large-scale widening of the platform (which isn't cheap in those soil conditions).


Riksväg 26-35 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ElviS77

This is of course true, but they are also widening narrower sections. In additon, building a brand new 14-15-metre road is still considerably cheaper than building a 22-30-metre motorway. One can certainly compromise, using a 17-20-metre four-lane profile (which is done in many places), but it is still more expensive and it's even less likely to ever be expanded into a proper motorway. Yes, in a perfect world where one has all money for all projects, motorways are the best solution, but that's never the case. Thus, where traffic volumes are moderate and travel speeds relatively high, divided 1+1s/2+1s make sense. They are certainly far better than wide undivided 2-lane or 3-lane roads, and that's really the alternative most of the time.


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## sponge_bob

ElviS77 said:


> One can certainly compromise, using a 17-20-metre four-lane profile (which is done in many places), but it is still more expensive and it's even less likely to ever be expanded into a proper motorway.


That is exactly what I proposed, a 2+2 not a motorway, and looking at that recent AADT data I would build it Talinn <> Parnu, traffic south of there AADT seems a lot lower. Estonia has very wide road corridors by European standards with a lot of land either side of the S2 and no walls along the roads. 

And you are right, 2+2 along the existing alignment cannot be made into a motorway in future as the alignment is suitable for 100kph not 120kph running. 

2+1 roads and the narrower 2+2 roads in Sweden are generally retrofits of Wide S2 built before 1990. The Swedes built these wide straight roads not least so they could dispersetheir airforce in war conditions, it had less to do with road design standards until they started retrofitting them.


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## Rebasepoiss

The Estonian Road Administration is testing a new methodology for setting speed limits on several sections of T15 (Tallinn-Rapla-Türi) and T3/E264 (Jõhvi-Tartu-Valga). Last year they measured speeds in several places and where a large amount of drivers drove below the speed limit they are lowering the limit from the general 90 km/h to 80 km/h.

In addition, several places with 50 km/h and 70 km/h speed limts before will now have 70 km/h or 80 km/h limits to better reflect the actual road conditions. The behavior of drivers will be monitored throughout the year and this data will be used to decide whether to use this method in other places as well.

Currently there isn't really a single defined method for setting speed limits so in some places they might be too high and in others too low. The goal is to work out a specific method for setting speed limits on national highways (where the general limit is too high) and avoid speed limits which seem illogical to drivers.


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## GROBIN

There are several places in Estonia that could easily be limited to 100 km/h like the Via Baltica (Ikla-Pärnu) or some stretches of road #10 between Lihula and Risti, as well as on the Saaremaa island. Still, although the method above is questionable because most Estonian drivers drive below the speed limit (afraid of the police, I think), it is still better than the French method, where nobody cares how people drive or whether it is logical - they lower drastically speed limits on roads where they should be higher.


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## Valvejoodik

GROBIN said:


> There are several places in Estonia that could easily be limited to 100 km/h like the Via Baltica (Ikla-Pärnu) or some stretches of road #10 between Lihula and Risti, as well as on the Saaremaa island. Still, although the method above is questionable *because most Estonian drivers drive below the speed limit (afraid of the police, I think)*, it is still better than the French method, where nobody cares how people drive or whether it is logical - they lower drastically speed limits on roads where they should be higher.


Are you joking? :nuts:

Most people drive around 95kmh (with 100 on the clock). Police also won't generally mind it, unless you're really unlucky. Cameras do mind though.

Problem with 100kmh on these roads is that trucks still drive with 90 (or even 80) and since Via Baltica has many trucks, it would lead to many overtakings, thus increasing danger of accidents.


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ The cameras actually have a tolerance of 3 km/h + a measurement uncertainty of 4 km/h so in reality you won't get fined unless you drive at least 97 km/h.

Anyways, in the not so distant past, up until early 2011s, Estonia used to have lots of 1x2 highway sections with summer speed limits of 100 km/h, around 650 km in total in 2011. The goal of lowering those limits to a general 90 km/h was to increase traffic safety. 

I actually don't mind the decision so much. On some highways (Tallinn-Tartu, for example) the limit changed so frequently that it was hard to keep track of whether you were supposed to be driving at 90 or 100 and this became quite annoying when speed cameras were introduced. 

Nowadays there needs to be a central barrier or median between different directions of travel to increase the speed limit to 100 km/h - this is done on 2+1 roads now. I can at least appreciate the logic: in summer 2x2 has a general limit of 110 km/h, 2+1 has 100 km/h and 1x2 has 90 km/h. There are exceptions, of course. In winter everything has a 90 km/h limit.


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## Valvejoodik

The tunnel is already constructed by the way. They just need to connect it to the main road. The traffic light is a stupid idea for sure. I'm not sure how it is now, but before it was just regulated using modes, not on demand. So it would just randomly give red to the highway to let through invisible trucks from the quarry. But now it indeed does seem to give green when it's actually needed.


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## Rebasepoiss

Update on Kose-Ardu-Võõbu construction on T2/E263. Photos are mostly from 15 October, the sunny one of an ecoduct is from 20 September

Start of the section from the North, near Kose-Risti:









Kose-Risti interchange:


















First ecoduct of two:









Ardu interchange:









Ardu interchange #2:









One of two rest areas (one in either direction):









Second ecoduct:









Second ecoduct #2:









Anna interchange:









Source: https://fotoladu.maaamet.ee


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## PovilD

It would be interesting to see the video of completed road or the photos of road signage  I adore the design of the junctions  They design itself shows that you are the most Nordic wannabe out of three Baltics 

According to Lithuanian 2+2 projects we are/will be more into diamond junctions, that are similar or have similarities to that Kose-Risti junction. First project containing similar junctions will be A14 near Vilnius, then there will be A5 Marijampolė-Polish border


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## Rebasepoiss

If you want more, there's a new drone flight playlist out as well from 24 October: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOhzhNCZGna4IlZInFsJV9N9AlXO9um38 

Here's the first one for a taste


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## MichiH

Rebasepoiss said:


> Tallinn bypass km 6-9.7: construction began in August 2017 and will officially end in February 2020 (in reality probably late 2019).


OSM indicates it being opened 2x2. Is it correct? When did it open?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/59.4315/24.9163


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## Rebasepoiss

^^ It's this section. You can see on this street view image from June 2019 that it's pretty much finished. Even on the Google Earth imagery from 3 April 2019 it seems to be fully open to traffic. So I'd assume it happened around March 2019 but I can't be 100% sure. It didn't make the news, at least.


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## MichiH

Rebasepoiss said:


> Tallinn bypass km 0-3. Construction started last Autumn, couldn't find the exact month. Construction is expected to finish in November this year. Tallinn bypass km 6-9.7: construction began in August 2017 and will officially end in February 2020 (in reality probably late 2019).





Rebasepoiss said:


> ^^ It's this section. You can see on this street view image from June 2019 that it's pretty much finished. Even on the Google Earth imagery from 3 April 2019 it seems to be fully open to traffic. So I'd assume it happened around March 2019 but I can't be 100% sure. It didn't make the news, at least.


I think I've mistaken two sections. The one I meant (km 0-3) must have been opened in November 2018. The one we talk about now (6-9.7) opened around March 2019. The section in-between opened in October 2018. Am I right now?


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## Rebasepoiss

The one between km 0-3 is not actually finished yet. There was an issue with land acquisition which means some of the necessary collector roads haven't been built yet. Currently there is a temporary traffic light intersection here. The tender for building those collector roads is in its final stages but the winner hasn't been announced yet. The construction period is 14 months but the starting date for the construction is yet unknown, probably Spring 2020. 

The section between km 3-6 opened to traffic earlier than Ocotber 2018. On Google Earth you can see traffic using both carriageways, road markings being finished etc already in late June 2018.


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## MichiH

^^ Thanks, but I'm even more confused now. Can you please help me updating the new expressway list for Estonia? I think that almost everything is based on your posts here but it's possible that I made mistakes.


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## Rebasepoiss

Sure. 

In your list the south of Lagedi - Nort of Veneküla section opened in June 2018 like I mentioned earlier.

The Põrguvälja - South of Lagedi section opened in early 2019, probably March.

North of Veneküla - Tallinn-East (T1) section isn't fully done, like I mentioned. I'll update on it when the contract is signed and published.


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## Uppsala

Is there still not a single road in Estonia with a motorway sign? After all, there are several roads today that meet the standard that applies to being equipped with a motorway sign.


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## Valvejoodik

Estonian "rules" for motorway are a bit different. Theoretically, yes, we have roads that elsewhere would be motorways but in reality they're not...


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## Uppsala

So what's missing for them to be considered motorways?

And what differentiates Estonian rules from the rest of Europe in this regard?


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## PovilD

I imagine a motorway as a road that is connected only via grade-separated junctions.
In Estonia connections are built not only via grade-seperated junctions although there are no U-turns in newly built sections. Newly built sections of T2 reminds me of French expressways.

The main problem probably is that some old Soviet Estonian 2x2 were built as USA style dual carriegeways while newly built 2x2 more resembles Scandinavian standards (although not entirely, in my opinion). There is not much distinction uppon those two types apart from design, even the speed limits are similar. This makes hard time to put motorway/expressway signs on newly built sections, because for regular driver, the sign would probably be too random, because regular driver probably doesn't care about design issues.


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## Maadeuurija

If i remember correctly then there should be 3 main points which we currently fail to meet. 

Distance between intersections (currently they're too close for most parts)
Motorways here need to be lit in their entire length (currently only bits to larger cites/intersections have lighting) 
Winter maintenance must be improved to have a higher speed limit all year round. (currently speed is dropped down to 90kph on dual carriageways for the winter season
+ some small differences in road cross sections (3,75m lane vs 3,5) or something similar :lol: 
+ older dual carriageways allowed/were built with U-turns/even some at-grade left turns (big no-no) (Luckily some of them have already been closed where traffic density is higher and/or new grade separated intersections were built).

Also the lack of will from anyone who could make a difference :bash:

TL;DR: it's a mess :lol:


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## Uppsala

Maadeuurija said:


> [*]Motorways here need to be lit in their entire length (currently only bits to larger cites/intersections have lighting)



What is the strange rule you have in Estonia that a motorway must be equipped with lighting? If that is true then Estonia is probably the only country in Europe that has this strange rule. In Belgium and Norway they are extreme with lots of lighting on motorways. The Netherlands is also quite extreme but not quite as extreme as Belgium and Norway. But even in these three countries, lighting is completely required for it to be a motorway. There, too, there are some distances that lack lighting, mainly in Belgium then, but also occasionally in Norway.

In other countries it is more common without lighting than with when it is motorway. Sweden has lighting on the motorway only through slightly larger cities where the motorway goes through built-up areas such as Stockholm, Gothenburg, Uppsala, Jönköping and some more. But most are without lighting. Estonia has significantly more lighting on its roads that look like motorways today than it does on real motorways in Sweden.

And look at Germany. Lighting on motorways is very uncommon there. Despite heavy traffic, they have almost no lighting at all. Hamburg and Berlin have some lighting, but not much. But the Berliner Ring has no lighting at all.

So why is lighting required in Estonia?


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## Valvejoodik

Because our drivers are idiots


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## Rebasepoiss

Maadeuurija said:


> If i remember correctly then there should be 3 main points which we currently fail to meet.
> 
> Distance between intersections (currently they're too close for most parts)
> Motorways here need to be lit in their entire length (currently only bits to larger cites/intersections have lighting)
> Winter maintenance must be improved to have a higher speed limit all year round. (currently speed is dropped down to 90kph on dual carriageways for the winter season
> + some small differences in road cross sections (3,75m lane vs 3,5) or something similar :lol:
> + older dual carriageways allowed/were built with U-turns/even some at-grade left turns (big no-no) (Luckily some of them have already been closed where traffic density is higher and/or new grade separated intersections were built).
> 
> Also the lack of will from anyone who could make a difference :bash:
> 
> TL;DR: it's a mess :lol:


You are correct in that those were indeed the requirements in the past. Another was the requirement for 3m wide hard shoulders whereas most 2x2 roads over here have 2.5m and the newest "Scandinavian style" sections even 2m.

However, in 2015 a "small" addition was made to the Estonian road building requirements which stated that roads may be designed according to rules in other climatically similar countries (e.g. Sweden) if it meets the requirements for a safe driving environment.

This opened up the door to the narrow "Swedish style" 2x2 roads that we see now with narrow medians, 3.5m wide lanes instead of 3.75m and 2m wide hard shoulders instead of 2.5m. This was among the many cost-cutting measures taken in the early 2010s by the Estonian Road Administration. Another concrete example is the curve to the on-ramp at Põrguvälja interchange on T11 (Tallinn bypass). The radius of the curve isn't actually big enough according to the Estonian road design standards but since there wasn't enough room they just used the Swedish standards which do allow a curve of that radius...

Currently the limitations for putting up a motorway sign aren't that strict, the main point is that there has to be an alternative route the local traffic can take since slow vehciles, for example, aren't allowed on motorways. Most 2x2 roads in Estonia don't fill this requirement since they were built along existing 1x2 roads and a parallel alternative route isn't available. 

The first section that might receive a motorway sign is the Kose-Ardu-Võõbu (and in the future to Mäo) section on T2/E263 which is built on a completely different route from the existing road. This also enable the interchanges (and exits) to be relatively far apart (around 10 km).


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## Rebasepoiss

The current government has agreed upon rules and guidelines for implementing PPP projects in the future. The main objective is to start building 2x2 roads at an increased pace on the main three routes: from Tallinn to Narva (RUS border), Tartu and Pärnu (Via Baltica). The pilot project for PPP is going to be a 21 km section of Via Baltica between Libatse and Nurme (just North of Pärnu), although specific dates for the start or completion of the project haven't been given yet.

There are also plenty of people who are sceptical of PPP projects. It is very likely that PPP projects will end up being more expensive than if the state took out a loan and built these roads itself since a state entitiy can get a cheaper loan and a private company has to include overhead for the financial risks involved and the profit margin as well.

There are also people who think that Estonia should go for the cheaper 2+1 roads instead and spend the rest of the money for upgrading railways from 120 km/h to 160 km/h.


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## ChrisZwolle

Rebasepoiss said:


> There are also plenty of people who are sceptical of PPP projects. It is very likely that PPP projects will end up being more expensive than if the state took out a loan and built these roads itself since a state entitiy can get a cheaper loan and a private company has to include overhead for the financial risks involved and the profit margin as well.


This is generally true, but the biggest advantage of PPP is that it is able to deliver large projects in a short amount of time. This is where conventional government projects fail to deliver.

I see it like a house construction. You take out a mortgage to be able to buy a house and not set € 500 per month apart for construction so that in 30 years, your house will finally be finished. 

Germany is a good example, where there is a striking difference between PPP projects and conventional government projects. It means that they can build 50 kilometers of motorway in 4 years, instead of sections of 4 kilometers over a period of 50 years. This is hugely beneficial to society, despite the somewhat higher cost of PPPs. 

It's a cost-benefit consideration really. Do you accept the higher cost to have higher benefits? Do you want to wait a generation or more until the promised product is complete?


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## Rebasepoiss

Wover said:


> Wasn't the main reason to build the new 2x2 stretch from Kose to Ardu (and in the future to Mäo) that the current stretch comprises 20% of the distance from Tallinn to Tartu, but 50% of all accidents happen on that stretch?


That is one of the factors which plays into the cost-benefit analysis, true. However, the Tallinn-Tartu 2x2 highway has also been probably the most popular political promise for the last two decades so its construction is still mostly politically motivated. My point wasn't that new 2x2 aren't necessary rathern than the existing 2x2 sections require some attention as well, especially when it comes to safety. AFAIK the 2x2 sections near Tallinn perform rather poorly when it comes to traffic safety.


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## Tin_Can

Rebasepoiss said:


> ...AFAIK the 2x2 sections near Tallinn perform rather poorly when it comes to traffic safety...


Isn't it partly because of under funding of police and lack of highway patrols? Plus there's also some risk imposed by wild life movement in semi-urbanized areas adjacent to 2+2 sections.


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## Rebasepoiss

Tin_Can said:


> Isn't it partly because of under funding of police and lack of highway patrols? Plus there's also some risk imposed by wild life movement in semi-urbanized areas adjacent to 2+2 sections.


I think it's more to do with substandard road design and high AADT. There are U-turns and left turns, lack of a proper pedestrian infrastructure, direct access from adjacent plots etc.

The situation is slowly improving but I think the busiest sections near Tallinn could use a complete overhaul, especially T2/E263.


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## Tin_Can

Rebasepoiss said:


> I think it's more to do with substandard road design and high AADT. There are U-turns and left turns, lack of a proper pedestrian infrastructure, direct access from adjacent plots etc.
> 
> The situation is slowly improving but I think the busiest sections near Tallinn could use a complete overhaul, especially T2/E263.


Well,Tallinn metro area is atleast to some extent developing in that matter (like Kanama pedestrian tunnel built few years ago) even though there's chronical shortage of pedestrian tunnels and bridges,especially on sections built in Soviet era. Imho far worse are 2+2 sections in other counties like bus stops on T2/E20 between Tallinn and Rakvere. Same level unmarked crossings between bus stops on both sides of 2+2 😣


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## Rebasepoiss

Today a contract was signed for the construction of the Väo interchange between T1/E20 and T11/E265/Tallinn bypass. This is currently one of the busiest intersections in Estonia with an AADT of roughly 50,000. The design of the new interchange allows for free-flowing traffic on the T1/E20 in either direction via overpasses and for traffic going from T11/E265 to T1/E20. All other traffic will be routed via the roundabout at the lower level of the interchange. The traffic sheme can be viewed here. Construction will start in May this year, the deadline is end of 2021. The cost of the project is around 20 million with 85% funded by the EU.

Here's a video as well:


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## Rebasepoiss

It has now been decided that that the new Kose-Mäo section on T2/E263 will have a maximum speed limit of 120 km/h but ultimately the speed limit will be dependent on road and weather conditions. Slower vehicles will also be banned on this road, a first in Estonia, although it isn't yet known whether they will use a motorway sign to indicate that (which they really should) or ban certain vehicles with separate signs like they do on Spanish autovias.

The high speed limit, relatively speaking, is a bit ironic, though, since this section will have one the narrowest cross-sections for a 2x2 road in Estonia so 120 km/h will definitely feel quite fast...and Estonians aren't used to driving fast


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## PovilD

Rebasepoiss said:


> It has now been decided that that the new Kose-Mäo section on T2/E263 will have a maximum speed limit of 120 km/h but ultimately the speed limit will be dependent on road and weather conditions. Slower vehicles will also be banned on this road, a first in Estonia, although it isn't yet known whether they will use a motorway sign to indicate that (which they really should) or ban certain vehicles with separate signs like they do on Spanish autovias.
> 
> The high speed limit, relatively speaking, is a bit ironic, though, since this section will have one the narrowest cross-sections for a 2x2 road in Estonia so 120 km/h will definitely feel quite fast...and Estonians aren't used to driving fast


In Lithuania, there is reconstruction of A14 near Vilnius to 2x2, and the signs of 110 km/h were implemented. Additionally, signs for tractors and horse carriers were also implemented at entrance to this new road. There are no expressway or motorway signs, they are for 120 km/h and 130 km/h roads.

It's interesting if the similar case will be with this section in Estonia. Motorway signage would be also cool, but I heard that you can apply motorway signs only on 2x3 sections?

Kose-Mäo section would likely get expressway sign in Lithuania (120 km/h summer - 110 km/h winter), maybe with slight chances of having motorway sign (130 km/h summer - 110 km/h winter).

Btw, I would advocate for extention of 120 km/h section from Kose to Patika junction. From Patika to Tallinn, I see lots of infrastructure (U-turns, one-level pedestrian crossings) that look too substandard for motor road with 120 km/h (and current traffic levels).


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## Rebasepoiss

PovilD said:


> It's interesting if the similar case will be with this section in Estonia. Motorway signage would be also cool, but I heard that you can apply motorway signs only on 2x3 sections?
> [...]
> 
> Btw, I would advocate for extention of 120 km/h section from Kose to Patika junction. From Patika to Tallinn, I see lots of infrastructure (U-turns, one-level pedestrian crossings) that look too substandard for motor road with 120 km/h (and current traffic levels).


There is nothing legally that would stop putting a motorway sign up on the Kose-Mäo section. Even the previously strict design standards for motorways are now basically only advisory since standards from other countries like Finland or Sweden can be used as well (and have been used).

There is one useless U-turn just South of Patika but if they closed it and banned slow vehicles I would agree with the 120 km/h idea, especially if they use variable speed limit signs.


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## Rebasepoiss

Yesterday a contract was signed to build a new 16 km 2x2 section on T2/E263 between Võõbu and Mäo. The construction will cost € 58.7 million, well below the initial estimate of € 70 million. Construction is expected to commence in July this year and end by late 2022. The route plan can be seen here: 1 and 2.

And a video (that has most likely been posted here a couple of times already):





After this project is completed roughly half of "Tallinn-Tartu highway" will be a dual carriageway. with the other half being a mixture of 1x2 and 2+1.


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## Rebasepoiss

Here's a few photos of the nearly finished Kose-Ardu-Võõbu 2x2 highway on T2/E263. The Northern end of the project is almost finished but the Southern part still needs guard rails and road markings. No specific date has been given on when the road will be opened to traffic, however. Since this highway section will have variable message signs, variable speed limits and two "level crossings" for animals with automatic warning systems (in addition to two ecoducts), they'll probably need to do some testing beforehand.

As you can see, it has a narrow cross-section with 3.5 m wide lanes and a 2 m wide shoulder. Other cost-cutting measures include reduced lighting compared to some older road projects. Now only the slip lanes are lit at interchanges but the main road itself isn't. Supposedly the maximum speed limit on this road will be 120 km/h but I'm not too sure how comfortable it will be with narrow lanes and a narrow median as well. Thankfully the current AADT on the existing stretch of road is only around 9,000.

Mustla interchange



























Kose interchange




























Construction on the Võõbu-Mäo section has also started:









Source: https://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudi...3967#!dgs=dgsee-259669:3AfUv_GLahA8taSzAmTRkY


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## RipleyLV

Wow, that road looks very Scandinavian. Next time I'm considering to travel to Tallinn, I'll go via this highway to test it out.


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## PovilD

RipleyLV said:


> Wow, that road looks very Scandinavian. Next time I'm considering to travel to Tallinn, I'll go via this highway to test it out.


I saw construction photos from Google Satelite, junctions are indeed typical Scandinavian.

What I like the most about Estonian roads is their directional signage standard is seems to be the of Baltic States, and horizontal marking avoids Soviet marking standards, which seems to be not the case in Lithuania in some streets, like too wide lanes for 50 km/h traffic, lack of smart decisions on marking, like left turn lanes or cycling lanes on random streets, parking lanes. In Lithuania, I often saw single lane used both for parking and driving in 50 km/h speed which I think shouldn't be the case, there should be dedicated lanes for parking, and dedicated lanes for driving. Ok, there was problems with lane marking in 2000s in urban areas (especially in Kaunas), so it might have its consequences now, since now when you see markings everywhere, you hope to see it done smartly, not just randomly dividing central axis in to two parts.

As for directional signage, it's indeed quite relevant, except I might go slightly cheaper way for implementing signage in some occasions. I'm talking mostly about 2x2 highways. I don't know if you need to repeat information straight on gantries on less important junctions, and I don't like map-like junction advance signs. This isn't the case with Scandinavia, for example, in minor junctions, only exit direction is indicated, and almost none information straight (indicating only road number is good measure). For the most part, only Post-Soviet republics in Europe use this standard for map-like junction advance signs. Even Lithuania use fork-(a)like standard for its junctions, similarly like the rest of Europe. For me, it looks like that Nordic countries spend less money on information signs for similar result.


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> Wow, that road looks very Scandinavian. Next time I'm considering to travel to Tallinn, I'll go via this highway to test it out.


Most new road construction projects in Estonia rely heavily on Nordic road design standards, mostly Swedish. The old Estonian standards were too demanding for our relatively low AADT numbers and it doesn't make much sense to develop completely new standards just for Estonia.



PovilD said:


> As for directional signage, it's indeed quite relevant, except I might go slightly cheaper way for implementing signage in some occasions. I'm talking mostly about 2x2 highways. I don't know if you need to repeat information straight on gantries on less important junctions, and I don't like map-like junction advance signs. This isn't the case with Scandinavia, for example, in minor junctions, only exit direction is indicated, and almost none information straight (indicating only road number is good measure). For the most part, only Post-Soviet republics in Europe use this standard for map-like junction advance signs. Even Lithuania use fork-(a)like standard for its junctions, similarly like the rest of Europe. For me, it looks like that Nordic countries spend less money on information signs for similar result.


The situation regarding road signage has improved over the past decade. Some interchanges don't have map-like signage anymore. See here or here. The signs still feel a too busy and the usage of capital letters doesn't really help either. However, if you look at what complete crap was put up in the late 2000s and early 2010s, it's much better. Some examples here and here.


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## PovilD

Yes, I noticed some new examples too, but I still have a feeling that map-like advance signs overwhelm typical advance road signs that are used elsewhere in Europe.

We are not using map-like advance signs since who knows when (I don't even know how advance signs looked in USSR times in Lithuania). Our standard is something like this for similar junctions. They tend to put such standard signs even on our newest 2x2 highway sections. I think just because they cost less than arrow pointed at 45 point angle, and this f*cks up design a bit. At least for me. I'm thinking that French, American or at least Swedish standard would fit better. They are even cheaper than current strange Lithuanian standard, but provides most important information, because on most exits, direction "straight" almost never changes until you hit important junction.

As for Estonian 2x2 highway junctions. I think you should use this standard on minor junctions. Such signs would be implemented 1000 m and 500 m before junction. When it's important to indicate direction "straight" you can use current (German) standard of advance sign.

As for this standard these signs are very informative, but I'm more of a fan of minimalistic design. I like when exit is only indicated like this one in Sweden. I think we should be more relying on advance signage rather than indicating the exit more clearly than necessary. Of course, if there are situations like first lane acts like exit lane, or other unusual or difficult lane situations, gantry could be used, like in most cases in Scandinavia.

As for me, it's interesting that Baltic States are doing quite good job for copying design standards for junctions, cycle lanes, cycleways, or sidewalks, while comparing it with other countries of former USSR, but if we talk about road signage standards, you can sometimes feel the rigidity with lane information, and advance directional signage (if talking about Lithuania, Latvia). In Estonia, there is more info than necessary on directional signs, while in Lithuania, at least it could be implemented more logically, I mean, I find strange that direction sign is on the end of exit lane, not the start of exit lanes like in Nordic countries.


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## sponge_bob

Rebasepoiss said:


> As you can see, it has a narrow cross-section with 3.5 m wide lanes and a 2 m wide shoulder. Other cost-cutting measures include reduced lighting compared to some older road projects. Now only the slip lanes are lit at interchanges but the main road itself isn't. Supposedly the maximum speed limit on this road will be 120 km/h but I'm not too sure how comfortable it will be with narrow lanes and a narrow median as well.


That is the same standard as most Irish Motorways which are also 3.5m lanes, a narrow median with jersey barrier and a 120kph limit. It works fine in a small country. . 2.5m hard shoulders in Ireland would be the only difference.

It is more comfortable to drive on than it seems, I suppose they will also put some reflectors on the central barriers which makes a big difference in crap weather. Otherwise it is difficult to overtake a HGV if there is spray

Hopefully they will realise there is not much cost difference between this and a 2+1 and will ditch that idiot 2+1 idea in favour of these narrow median motorways....or expressways if one prefers. Ireland took a lot of design advice from Sweden perhaps 15 years ago.


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## Namibija

As I can see by the pictures and by the speed limit, this section Kose-Ardu-Võõbu is motorway by most of the road standards-


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## geogregor

Rebasepoiss said:


> The situation regarding road signage has improved over the past decade. Some interchanges don't have map-like signage anymore. See here or here. The signs still feel a too busy and the usage of capital letters doesn't really help either. However, if you look at what complete crap was put up in the late 2000s and early 2010s, it's much better. Some examples here and here.


I actually quite like the map-like advance directional signs. They give me some advance warning what to expect. Especially useful if junctions are non-standard.


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## PovilD

geogregor said:


> I actually quite like the map-like advance directional signs. They give me some advance warning what to expect. Especially useful if junctions are non-standard.


Sometimes junctions are too complex for map-like advance directional signs, but for example cloverleaf junctions are okay for the most part (if there are two exits and combined exit/entrance lane in the middle), but I don't like advance signs which shows another junction on the exit, especially roundabouts.

Only exception is this arrow design (I saw being used on German Autobahn advance signs):


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## earth intruder

Does anyone have an updated map of roads in Estonia?


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## Rebasepoiss

I threw something together to get an overview at least:









And a bigger image here


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## PovilD

Which program did you used? I'm thinking to create similar map for Lithuania


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## Rebasepoiss

PovilD said:


> Which program did you used? I'm thinking to create similar map for Lithuania


QGis but there are probably better programs for simple maps like this if you aren't already familiar with GIS software.


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## PovilD

Rebasepoiss said:


> QGis but there are probably better programs for simple maps like this if you aren't already familiar with GIS software.


Ok, just checked, interesting program. I have Inkspace installed too, but never used though, maybe I can use it for mapping  Paint, GIMP are just for drawing in terms of maps, doesn't look professional, although I tend to use them most often for many reasons.


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## Rebasepoiss

The official opening date for the 23 km Kose-Ardu-Võõbu section on T2/E263 has been announced - August 14th. The maximum speed limit of 120 km/h has also been confirmed. What is still unclear is the existence (or lack thereof) of motorway signs. We'll see...


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## RipleyLV

I'm beginning to think whether do you actually need those signs if you have set a decent speed limit. Just to satisfy us road geeks?


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> I'm beginning to think whether do you actually need those signs if you have set a decent speed limit. Just to satisfy us road geeks?


Yes  and to keep tractors and morons on bikes from entering the highway


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## RipleyLV

Depends on how well you have made infrastructure for them along the highway.


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> Depends on how well you have made infrastructure for them along the highway.


This new section of road is on a completely different route from the existing road so the old road will stay for local traffic and cyclists.


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## Rebasepoiss

From the Estonian sub-forum:


Leicester said:


> *Kose-Ardu-Võõbu*. Some more mistakes:
> 
> Length of the new Kose - Ardu section is 12 km. 12,7 would be the length of existing section.
> Length of the new Ardu - Võõbu section is 11 km. Same thing with the 15,3 km length.
> So it means that:
> 
> Total length of the new Kose-Ardu-Võõbu section is 23 km. From km 40 to 64 (yes, 64 should be correct, i know that 40+ 23 is 63, so it`s probably 12,.. +11,..)
> That also makes the lengths of the sections and construction costs sound more logical:
> 12 km = 50,65 mil
> 11 km = 38.1 mil (probably has less viaducts)
> Here`s video and photos from Postimees, you would have to be their reader to access them, but..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 394169
> 
> View attachment 394201
> View attachment 394203
> View attachment 394204
> 
> Tallinn tuleb seitse minutit lähemale


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## Rebasepoiss

Some photos I took today on the new Kose-Ardu-Võõbu section on T2/E263. These were taken in the direction towards Tallinn. Sorry for the dirty windshield, summer time means a car covered in dead bugs unfortunately  

Start of section, old road goes straight









All speed limit signs on this section are digital. There are some minor works to be done so the limit is currently 90 km/h on around half of the route.









Interesting that they opted for double-height crash barriers in some places (next to viaducts and other obstacles, for example). I don't recall seeing these on any other road in Estonia:


















Ecoduct #1









Exit to one of two rest areas (one in each direction)









It's not very common to have road numbers shown as road markings, especially for a very minor route like 141.


















Ecoduct #2


















Entering one of three at-grade crossings for wild animals where there is a gap left at the animal fence. They have motion sensors which trigger the VMS to indicate a warning and lower the speed limit. Currently these crossings are limited to 90 km/h, not sure what it will be in the future since there is no central barrier in these locations.


















Currently the maximum speed limit is 110 km/h. After all the works have been finished they will raise it to 120 km/h.









All adavance directional signs use the simple arrow design, rather than the map-like style that was used in the past.









And also a simple exit sign with only the exit destination shown. All exit signs also have VMS boards, not sure what they will be used for (other than the cheesy greeting that's there currently ):


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## MichiH

Rebasepoiss said:


> Some photos I took today on the new Kose-Ardu-Võõbu section on T2/E263. These were taken in the direction towards Tallinn. Sorry for the dirty windshield, summer time means a car covered in dead bugs unfortunately


When was it opened for traffic? Friday as announced?


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## Rebasepoiss

MichiH said:


> When was it opened for traffic?


Friday, 14th of August.


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## ChrisZwolle

Are there motorway or expressway status signs?


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> Are there motorway or expressway status signs?


No, neither of them






Only "red signs" which ban slow traffic. And drawings on the road surface warning for Elks


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## Sponsor

Rebasepoiss said:


> All adavance directional signs use the simple arrow design, rather than the *map-like style* that was used in the past.


What does it look like?


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## RipleyLV

Nice photos! Thanks for sharing!



Rebasepoiss said:


> It's not very common to have road numbers shown as road markings, especially for a very minor route like 141.


This one is quite hilarious for two reasons: 1) as you mentioned, it's an exit to a regional road; 2) the E263 has more meaning than T2 
Latvia doesn't have road number markings, I know that Lithuania has them in a few places like here.


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## PovilD

RipleyLV said:


> I know that Lithuania has them in a few places like here.


There is one near Kaunas:








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl





I can't remember if there is another place with such markings. It's possible that this junction is the only one in Lithuania.

I'm more of a fan of German approach when marking on pavements is not used for directional information. Lithuania partially follows German rules for pavement marking, and it's now even avoiding arrows on motorway pavements, like in German Autobahns.


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## RipleyLV

Yes, that is the same junction I linked to. Also, there is one near Marijampolė here. Don't remember elsewhere I have seen..


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## PovilD

My impressions from new T2 section. I was thinking about analogous projects in my home country Lithuania too.



Rebasepoiss said:


> All speed limit signs on this section are digital. There are some minor works to be done so the limit is currently 90 km/h on around half of the route.


Most speed limit signs will be digital in Vilnius-Kaunas section in Lithuania too.



> Interesting that they opted for double-height crash barriers in some places (next to viaducts and other obstacles, for example). I don't recall seeing these on any other road in Estonia:


I spotted those in Lithuania too in the same Vilnius-Kaunas section. I think I never saw such barriers before in Lithuania. It reminds me of Italy, where I noticed similar barriers for the first time.



> Ecoduct #1


We don't have those in Lithuania yet, but I heard they are planned in A5 motorway towards Polish border. Ecoducts are also planned on Rail Baltica new railway towards Riga.



> It's not very common to have road numbers shown as road markings, especially for a very minor route like 141.


I'm more of a fan of aproach used in Lithuania and Germany, where directional signage is put on road signs not on road markings.



> Entering one of three at-grade crossings for wild animals where there is a gap left at the animal fence. They have motion sensors which trigger the VMS to indicate a warning and lower the speed limit. Currently these crossings are limited to 90 km/h, not sure what it will be in the future since there is no central barrier in these locations.


I don't know if I like this idea of at-grade animal crossings in the motorway-like road. Are there any similar realizations in Northern European or Western European motorways/motorroads?



> All adavance directional signs use the simple arrow design, rather than the map-like style that was used in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And also a simple exit sign with only the exit destination shown. All exit signs also have VMS boards, not sure what they will be used for (other than the cheesy greeting that's there currently ):


What I like with this is section is that more attention is paid on advance signage. All advance signs are repeated two times, one at 900/1000 m, and 500 m. Instead unnecessary direction straight with Tallinn or Tartu near minor junctions, you have digital text information provided. Smart. Lithuania also decided to put only exit destinations at the start of exit lanes on the most recent projects, including current reconstruction of Vilnius-Kaunas.

---
My conclusions:

I found it strange about at-grade animal crossings on motorways. Maybe there is a reason why they are better than two-grade crossings wherever possible?
I like that directional signage is improved in this section. Direction of exit is put on advanced signs, direction straight is not used on the start of exit lane, instead digital text info is provided. It would be even cooler if exit numbers would have been implemented too.
I think I like German pavement marking better where there is no arrows, numbers or even text provided.


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## Leicester

About at-grade animal crossings: it`s pretty simple actually. They`re better because they cost less 😁


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## Rebasepoiss

Sponsor said:


> What does it look like?


Like this or this.


RipleyLV said:


> This one is quite hilarious for two reasons: 1) as you mentioned, it's an exit to a regional road; 2) the E263 has more meaning than T2
> Latvia doesn't have road number markings, I know that Lithuania has them in a few places like here.


The thing is, nobody uses road numbers in Estonia, people just name roads by the destinations they connect. Therefore it's quite amusing that the Estonian Road Administration keeps putting road numbers everywhere. There is also no easy way to say road numbers in conversation since they don't include a letter. Some people (including myself) have been using the nomination Txxx for road numbers but that is unofficial. The official name for this particular road would be "riigitee number 2" or "state road number 2" which nobody is ever going to use.


PovilD said:


> I don't know if I like this idea of at-grade animal crossings in the motorway-like road. Are there any similar realizations in Northern European or Western European motorways/motorroads?


Supposedly the warning system was custom made since there isn't anything quite like it on the market.


PovilD said:


> My conclusions:
> 
> I found it strange about at-grade animal crossings on motorways. Maybe there is a reason why they are better than two-grade crossings wherever possible.


I'm pretty sure the main reason is cost. Ecoducts are expensive, ranging from 1.5 million to over 5 million each. An extra 3 ecoducts on this section would've increased the construction cost almost up to 20%. It is possible that the number and locations of wildlife crossings were set at an earlier planning stage so to comply with those earlier planning documents and environmental assessments they had to either build the ecoducts or find another solution. I'm just speculating here, though.

This section is basically a test case which will determine whether a similar solution could be used elsewhere as well.

Estonia now has 4 ecoducts and the first two haven't really worked very well, at least not for larger animals like moose. It is entirely possible that an at-grade crossing is also better in terms of the ecological impact.


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## Leicester

So this means that Võõbu-Mäo section will most likely not have them, as it`s already u/c and it takes time to see the results?


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## PovilD

Situation with road numbers is quite similar to Lithuania, and I guess it should be similar situation in Latvia too. We name city names that road connects, like "Vilnius-Kaunas", "Kaunas-Klaipėda", "Vilnius-Panevėžys". Road numbers are often mentioned only on advance signs, and the advance sign is usually implemented only once per every direction to the junction. Minor roads don't even use advance junctions at all, you learn about road number only when you enter the road itself. Road number(s) is/are repeated after every junction with road of greater importance than field track.

I have a friend who decided to use E85 for Kaunas-Klaipėda  Maybe he saw it on GPS, and decided to use it.
I think it shows that letter helps to memorize the road number better. I think many Lithuanians would know where the road A1 is. I think it's harder with three digit number roads which connects smaller cities.


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## Rebasepoiss

Leicester said:


> So this means that Võõbu-Mäo section will most likely not have them, as it`s already u/c and it takes time to see the results?


Not to my knowledge, no. Võõbu-Mäo is also shorter and goes through less forested areas.


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## RipleyLV

Rebasepoiss said:


> The thing is, nobody uses road numbers in Estonia, people just name roads by the destinations they connect. Therefore it's quite amusing that the Estonian Road Administration keeps putting road numbers everywhere. There is also no easy way to say road numbers in conversation since they don't include a letter. Some people (including myself) have been using the nomination Txxx for road numbers but that is unofficial. The official name for this particular road would be "riigitee number 2" or "state road number 2" which nobody is ever going to use.


Oh, so the letter T is unofficial, I didn't know that. I saw you using it and have been doing that since then.  Yes, I guess the situation with road numbering is similar in all three Baltic states. Even on the radio, reporters avoid mentioning road numbers and in social media/news when there's an accident they also refer as "Jelgava" or "Sigulda" highway. I guess that is still a Soviet rash, when there was rarely a road number on signs and people just referred to cities and in conversations to younger people were also speaking like that. I think that will change in time.


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## Xmaster

Thank you for an update! Road looks nice and clean, congrats with another qualitty dual carriageway. Speed limit though could be quesionable - 120 km/h for a road with limited width of service lanes and pretty narrow median is a bit high I would say. Maybe traffic volumes are not that big and it has been decided that 120 km/h is still ok on a such road?


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## Rebasepoiss

Xmaster said:


> Thank you for an update! Road looks nice and clean, congrats with another qualitty dual carriageway. Speed limit though cold be quesionable - 120 km/h for a road with limited width of service lanes and pretty narrow median is a bit high I wold say. Maybe trafiic volumes are not that big and it has been decided that 120 km/h is still ok on a such road?


AADT on the now old section of road was around 9,000-9,500 in 2019 but that includes some local traffic as well.

Since the speed limits can be changed any time, they could theoretically vary it not only based on weather but also on traffic conditions. I guess time will tell how often we will actually see a 120 km/h speed limit there.


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## sponge_bob

Rebasepoiss said:


> . I guess time will tell how often we will actually see a 120 km/h speed limit there.


Does it not drop automatically in Estonia from November to February, or does that not apply on 2+2 ???


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## Rebasepoiss

sponge_bob said:


> Does it not drop automatically in Estonia from November to February, or does that not apply on 2+2 ???


With regular 'fixed' speed limit signs it does indeed drop to 90 km/h. However, with variable speed limits like on the E67 and now on this road they vary them based on weather conditions with the default being 90 km/h. During daytime and if it the weather is fine they will raise the limit back to 110 km/h even in winter months.


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## VITORIA MAN

Rebasepoiss said:


> Some photos I took today on the new Kose-Ardu-Võõbu section on T2/E263. These were taken in the direction towards Tallinn. Sorry for the dirty windshield, summer time means a car covered in dead bugs unfortunately
> 
> Start of section, old road goes straight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All speed limit signs on this section are digital. There are some minor works to be done so the limit is currently 90 km/h on around half of the route.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that they opted for double-height crash barriers in some places (next to viaducts and other obstacles, for example). I don't recall seeing these on any other road in Estonia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ecoduct #1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exit to one of two rest areas (one in each direction)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not very common to have road numbers shown as road markings, especially for a very minor route like 141.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Entering one of three at-grade crossings for wild animals where there is a gap left at the animal fence. They have motion sensors which trigger the VMS to indicate a warning and lower the speed limit. Currently these crossings are limited to 90 km/h, not sure what it will be in the future since there is no central barrier in these locations.
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> All adavance directional signs use the simple arrow design, rather than the map-like style that was used in the past.
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> And also a simple exit sign with only the exit destination shown. All exit signs also have VMS boards, not sure what they will be used for (other than the cheesy greeting that's there currently ):


nice pics


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## lampsakos21

Video about the future project of Helsinki-Talinn tunnel


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## MattiG

lampsakos21 said:


> Video about the future project of Helsinki-Talinn tunnel


To clarify: Some individuals in Finland want to build a tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn using taxpayers' money.


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## PovilD

MattiG said:


> To clarify: Some individuals in Finland want to build a tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn using taxpayers' money.


Didn't watched video (maybe I will watch it later), but I think the region just has too small population for such large project. Ok, Finland would probably get faster link with Western Europe in the long run, but I don't know if we have to spend such amount of money for one country only with like 5-6m. I mean, at least in coming 2-3 decades. In the more distant future, maybe. I think motorways (motorway-like roads) and Rail Baltica should be built first in The Baltics, and main roads in general in Lithuania aren't that satisfactory-looking as two decades ago.

I would more be delighted to see more fixed links from Sweden via Denmark to Germany. After those links are completed, then there would be time for Finland connection to Baltics/CEE.

EDIT: I watched the video, and I still think we need to look at broader picture than cool tunnel connecting capitals in sparsely populated Northeastern Europe.


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## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> To clarify: Some individuals in Finland want to build a tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn using taxpayers' money.


Given that in the last few years a lot of such tunnels were built with taxpayers money, I can't see the scandal of it.


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## Rebasepoiss

Peter Vesterbacka's ambitious plan would've mostly used Chinese money but that plan was officially shut down by the Estonian government just recently. Obviously they didn't cite China in their reasoning for turnining down the offer but everybody knows it's the actual main reason. There were some other obvious issues like the unrealistic timeline, passenger and freight volume forecasts etc.

A project led by both states' governments would have a much higher probability of succeeding but that is still decades in the future. First we have to figure this Rail Baltica thing out. According to inside info it's very likely that the deadline for that will be pushed from 2026 to 2034.


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## MattiG

g.spinoza said:


> Given that in the last few years a lot of such tunnels were built with taxpayers money, I can't see the scandal of it.


100 km of railway tunnel between two small capitals of two tiny countries?


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## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> 100 km of railway tunnel between two small capitals of two tiny countries?


The Brenner tunnel will link two 100,000 inh cities. So?


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## MattiG

PovilD said:


> Didn't watched video (maybe I will watch it later), but I think the region just has too small population for such large project. Ok, Finland would probably get faster link with Western Europe in the long run, but I don't know if we have to spend such amount of money for one country only with like 5-6m.


Well...

The land distance Stockholm-Hamburg is 980 km while Tallinn-Hamburg is about 1830 km. So, the route via the Baltic countries would never be an attractive trade route between Finland and the Western Europe.

Most of the import and export of Finland relies on the sea transport. It is much cheaper per tonne than the rail transport. The main routes are either on ferries from Helsinki or Turku to Stockholm or on carco ships over the Baltic sea. There are several routes available. For example, the Finnlines company has more than twenty weekly ro-ro ship departures from Lübeck, Travemünde and Rostock to Finland all year long, and the crossing time is no more than about 36 hours. A freight train traveling 1800 km would not be faster. If in urgency then air cargo is used anyway.

Taking the night-ferry to Stockholm is an attactive choice from the logistics point of view: The truck driver can work for an entire day and drive to the port, sleep overnight, and continue early in the next morning.

It took 15 years for Eurotunnel to reach profitability, but the break-even has not yet reached. The estimates from 2018 say that the investment net present value is 8000 million GBP negative. The economy and the population around it is tens of times bigger than around the proposed Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel. And the proposed tunnel is double in length, and geology under the Gulf of Finland is more or less unknown.


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## MattiG

g.spinoza said:


> The Brenner tunnel will link two 100,000 inh cities. So?


You compare a tunnel in the central European main transport corridors to a route in distant areas in the North. Seriously?


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## PovilD

MattiG said:


> Well...
> 
> The land distance Stockholm-Hamburg is 980 km while Tallinn-Hamburg is about 1830 km. So, the route via the Baltic countries would never be an attractive trade route between Finland and the Western Europe.
> 
> Most of the import and export of Finland relies on the sea transport. It is much cheaper per tonne than the rail transport. The main routes are either on ferries from Helsinki or Turku to Stockholm or on carco ships over the Baltic sea. There are several routes available. For example, the Finnlines company has more than twenty weekly ro-ro ship departures from Lübeck, Travemünde and Rostock to Finland all year long, and the crossing time is no more than about 36 hours. A freight train traveling 1800 km would not be faster. If in urgency then air cargo is used anyway.
> 
> Taking the night-ferry to Stockholm is an attactive choice from the logistics point of view: The truck driver can work for an entire day and drive to the port, sleep overnight, and continue early in the next morning.
> 
> It took 15 years for Eurotunnel to reach profitability, but the break-even has not yet reached. The estimates from 2018 say that the investment net present value is 8000 million GBP negative. The economy and the population around it is tens of times bigger than around the proposed Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel. And the proposed tunnel is double in length, and geology under the Gulf of Finland is more or less unknown.


Maybe I get wrong impression, since where I live, I could see only Poland as main corridor to Western Europe, maybe along with ferries from Klaipėda to Southern Sweden and Northern Germany. Baltic States seems to be a slight detour for Finland to get to Western Europe. It means that Helsinki-Tallinn link is best suitable for connectivity with CEE countries not Western Europe. CEE is both more sparsely populated and less economically developed, so it makes tunnel possibility slightly less likely than we wish.


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## martinusK

Rebasepoiss said:


> You can also check online to see what the variable speed limits show in real-time: Tark Tee . Check map layers for "variable message signs".


Favourite part of this map is the fact that the national maps still haven't updated the T2 to be in it's correct position. It's only visible at a very close zoom level, but the old T2 is still shown as the proper route.
Google Maps took a week or two and shows both the old and new and T2 as national routes.
OSM was really glitchy for a week or two aswell, but now shows everything properly.


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## Rebasepoiss

Estonia and Latvia have partnered up for another EU-funded project for smart traffic management on the E263 and E77 highways. The first one was Smart E67 a couple of years ago.










> [...]
> *The Estonian, E263 Tallinn-Tartu-Võru-Luhamaa road will have smart dynamic speed management (up to 110 km/h) in Tallinn-Kose 2+2 section km 6-40* and E263 section between Mäo and Luhamaa will be equipped with warning VMS signs to insure in-site critical road information delivery. *In LV, E77 (A2) Riga-Pihkva road 2+2 motorway section from A4 junction to A3 (30 km section) will be equipped with dynamic speed management (up to 110 km/h)*. The E77 section between the A3 junction to the Estonian border will be equipped with warning VMS signs to assure in-site critical road information delivery.
> 
> More info


The deadline for this project is November 2022. This coincides with the deadline for the E263 Võõbu-Mäo section i.e. by the end of 2022 the 80 km 2x2 section from Tallinn to Mäo will have electronic variable speed limits for the full length of the 2x2 part.

Designing and building a smart traffic management system is also taking place on E265 (Tallinn bypass) and should be finished by the end of 2023. Only E20 doesn't have any electronic signage planned at the moment but it's still good to see that fixed 90 km/h speed limits in winter will soon be a thing of the past on many 2x2 highways.


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## Wover

I don't know if it's of interest to anyone, but this topic is so quiet, I thought I'd post a video of your typical south Estonian rural road on a sunny Sunday afternoon in autumn. It starts in Pühajärve, goes through the town of Otepää and then along rural roads to main road nr 2 (Võru - Tartu - Tallinn) for the last bit, ending in Kambja.

The rural roads in the middle of the video are what my children call "rollercoaster roads" and my wife intensely hates .


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## PovilD

I like road videos  It's interesting that all roads in the video are in good quality with markings. Well done.


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## Sponsor

I highly admire how developed Estonia looks. It reminds me of Finland or Sweden.


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## PovilD

Sponsor said:


> I highly admire how developed Estonia looks. It reminds me of Finland or Sweden.


I had thoughts that it's more developed than Poland, although when I talk with other people they say that Poland is the most developed since is the biggest country in CEE.


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## Sponsor

Considering numbers, statistics, indicators Poland is probably more developed than Estonia although not the most in CEE. I was more refering to general outlook, aesthetics, maintance, public space and so on


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## PovilD

Sponsor said:


> Considering numbers, statistics, indicators Poland is probably more developed than Estonia although not the most in CEE. I was more refering to general outlook, aesthetics, maintance, public space and so on


From my observations Estonia is best in the region for sure (I guess, somewhere at par with Slovenia, Czechia), except Estonia had Soviet past, so maybe things from 80s and earlier wouldn't that aesthetic, but with good maintenance is not that an issue for good general look).

The rest of Baltics (or at least Lithuania) are (way) too much into "what is the cheapest out there?", and "what's your problems for caring for such things?". I'm actually missing good quality infrastructure in my everyday life where I live.


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## ChrisZwolle

Check out this great before & after comparison of Jelgava, Latvia by @RipleyLV









JELGAVA | Projects & Construction | Projekti un...


Ar nepacietību gaidu lielo apdeitu! :)




www.skyscrapercity.com


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> Check out this great before & after comparison of Jelgava, Latvia by @RipleyLV
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> JELGAVA | Projects & Construction | Projekti un...
> 
> 
> Ar nepacietību gaidu lielo apdeitu! :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skyscrapercity.com


Cries in Estonian... 

The level of urban road design in Estonian towns, especially Tallinn, is absolute s**t compared to that, it must be said.


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## PovilD

ChrisZwolle said:


> Check out this great before & after comparison of Jelgava, Latvia by @RipleyLV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JELGAVA | Projects & Construction | Projekti un...
> 
> 
> Ar nepacietību gaidu lielo apdeitu! :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skyscrapercity.com


Smaller towns in Lithuania and Latvia relatively often gets such renovation, although these are not that colorful in my country.
What I feel pity about is that biggest cities commie districts are too stagnant that basically only Dutch-style cycleways helps (in those where I actually live right now).



Rebasepoiss said:


> Cries in Estonian...
> 
> The level of urban road design in Estonian towns, especially Tallinn, is absolute s**t compared to that, it must be said.


What I kinda feel and tend to like is that you keep one standard for all streets. Don't create a fairytale from one street, while leaving the rest of streets like Third World country slum backyards, but surely you get the price that main streets are looking more boring, and as you say "s**t". Tallinn keeps their elements like signage, junction planning, parking on higher standard than Vilnius as for now, and not on very expensive price, but yeah Vilnius despite it's very hilly city start to maintain one of the best cycling infrastructures in The Baltic and maybe this part of Europe in general.

---
I always find elements in Lithuanian road projects and management that don't satisfy me. Currently is the directional signage, and maybe signage design in general along with bus stops and U-turns on motorways. Estonian situation in this sense more resemble Northwest Europe, not post-USSR. Also, quality of tarmac is losing its aesthetics if comparing to EU neighbors, and start to look very post-soviety, but I'm more hopeful here for now, but less hopeful for informativness of directional signage, and logical positioning of signs (except maybe future reconstructions, but with somewhat fears that things will more resemble post-USSR but not even to the level of Poland...)

Red carpet cycleways are probably best things that I think don't exist in Estonia, but is spreading relatively rapidly in Lithuania (and maybe with Latvia too). Vilnius being a leader in the Baltics here, did great job.

Ok, that's my thoughts here. Sorry if I sound that I rant here.


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## Namibija

Sponsor said:


> Considering numbers, statistics, indicators Poland is probably more developed than Estonia although not the most in CEE. I was more refering to general outlook, aesthetics, maintance, public space and so on


It is really hard to compare those two countries. Baltic region (LT, LV, EST) is little bit unique by it's standards from the rest of EU but very different in comparison with Belarus, Ukraine and Russia.

During my travel from Estonia to Russia, I have noticed extreme differences between Narva and Ivangorod regions, and all other regions of Russia towards St. Petersburg.

But comparison of Baltics states and Visegrad states is really hard, since we do not speak about extreme development differences in that case.


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## Rebasepoiss

Today is the day when speed limits are lowered yet again for winter. However, this year they are doing it a bit differently. On previous years all speed limits have been lowered to 90 km/h. This year they are keeping the speed limit at 100 km/h for all 2+1 roads and for some 2x2 sections as well. It seems that the 2x2 sections which will have a higher speed limit (other than VMS sections) are the newer ones without any U-turns and with limited access which makes sense. Anyways, here's an overview map:








Source: Alates 20. novembrist maanteedel kiirust 110 km/h enam ei lubata


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## ssh

Looks like Viitna bypass is the only semi-recent 2x2 section which isn't actually up to standards?


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## Haadlum

Looks like Väo construction is going along quite well.


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## PovilD

Reminds me of ongoing A3/A15 junction project in Vilnius giving that location is also quite East from City Centre, leads to adjacent most important city in The East (for Tallinn is St. Petersburg, while for Vilnius is Minsk) and it will be also turned from one-level to diamond(-like) junction.

Even street names are named with adjacent cities. Vilnius - Minsko plentas (translates as Minsk chaussee* or smth) while Tallinn is Peterburi tee (St. Petersburg St)

*In Lithuanian, term could be understood as "road to..."

Waiting for finished product


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## Rebasepoiss

PovilD said:


> Reminds me of ongoing A3/A15 junction project in Vilnius giving that location is also quite East from City Centre, leads to adjacent most important city in The East (for Tallinn is St. Petersburg, while for Vilnius is Minsk) and it will be also turned from one-level to diamond(-like) junction.
> 
> Even street names are named with adjacent cities. Vilnius - Minsko plentas (translates as Minsk chaussee* or smth) while Tallinn is Peterburi tee (St. Petersburg St)
> 
> *In Lithuanian, term could be understood as "road to..."
> 
> Waiting for finished product


This interchange will actually have a roundabout on the lower level. See video here:


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## PovilD

Rebasepoiss said:


> This interchange will actually have a roundabout on the lower level. See video here:


Yeah the only significant difference here is roundabout instead of traffic light, and in Vilnius case traffic will go under traffic light junction via short tunnel, while in Tallinn case, viaduct will be built over roundabout.

Also, Vilnius interchange will be in urban environment, when in your case it will be rural.


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## Haadlum

Not sure if this has been posted before, but I found a great video on Airport tramway construction.


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## ChrisZwolle

The final traffic lights on the Tallinn Bypass have disappeared from the Route 2 - 1 segment on 4 December. This is now a four lane, controlled-access highway. 






Tallinna ringteel Väo–Lagedi teelõigul muutub liikluskorraldus


Homsest, 4. detsembrist 2020 muutub Tallinna ringtee km 0,6–2,8 Väo–Lagedi teelõigu liikluskorraldus seoses ühendusteede valmimisega. Tegemist on Tallinna ringtee Väo–Lagedi neljarajalise maanteelõigu ehitustööde viimase etapiga. Väo-Lagedi 2+2 teelõigu põhiosa ehitati 2018. aastal. Seni...




www.mnt.ee


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## Rebasepoiss

ChrisZwolle said:


> The final traffic lights on the Tallinn Bypass have disappeared from the Route 2 - 1 segment on 4 December. This is now a four lane, controlled-access highway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tallinna ringteel Väo–Lagedi teelõigul muutub liikluskorraldus
> 
> 
> Homsest, 4. detsembrist 2020 muutub Tallinna ringtee km 0,6–2,8 Väo–Lagedi teelõigu liikluskorraldus seoses ühendusteede valmimisega. Tegemist on Tallinna ringtee Väo–Lagedi neljarajalise maanteelõigu ehitustööde viimase etapiga. Väo-Lagedi 2+2 teelõigu põhiosa ehitati 2018. aastal. Seni...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mnt.ee


The Haljala-Rõmeda 2x2 section on the E20 has also been finished as of late November and it's now a continuous 2x2 from Tallinn to Haljala interchange








_Aaspere interchange. Source_


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## Rebasepoiss

I updated the Estonian highways map to take this year's openings into account:
*[EDIT: I already updated the map again, look a few posts further below]*









I tried to scramble together as much information as I could about upcoming projects as well. The northernmost section on Via Baltica that's in design phase was initially supposed to be designed as a 2+1 highway and the next two sections towards Pärnu were supposed to be designed either as 2+1 or 2x2. With the current government the planning and designing of new 2+1 roads has been pretty much scrapped as far as I know so I'm pretty sure all Via Baltica sections are currently being designed as 2x2 highways.

I *have not* included information from the highway plan for 2020-2030 because it changes very often and is usually just based on wishful thinking.

The next 2x2 road section (apart from the one near Tartu that's in tender) to go under construction is likely Tallinn bypass next to Saue (currently in blue) either next year or in 2022.


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## RipleyLV

Are there any new route or exiting road upgrades planned between Laagri and Tondi in Tallinn? I mean, for the T4/E67 entrance into the city.


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## PovilD

Interesting to see progress on making Estonian Via Baltica 2x2. At one point I thought it will be 2+1 all the way from Kaunas to Tallinn  ...or at very least from Riga vicinity to Tallinn.

I guess it's only Tallinn-Parnu that will become 2x2? No plans for LV border?


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> Are there any new route or exiting road upgrades planned between Laagri and Tondi in Tallinn? I mean, for the T4/E67 entrance into the city.


No, and on the current street there isn't really space for widening either. It's actually often quicker to take T11 and then Männiku tee to Järve to get into the city since a large portion of that road is 80-90 km/h.



PovilD said:


> Interesting to see progress on making Estonian Via Baltica 2x2. At one point I thought it will be 2+1 all the way from Kaunas to Tallinn  ...or at very least from Riga vicinity to Tallinn.
> 
> I guess it's only Tallinn-Parnu that will become 2x2? No plans for LV border?


Current plans call for Pärnu-LV border to be 2+1 at most but considering the low AADT even that is not a priority.


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## krzysiek997

Any plans on Parnu Bypas in the forseeable future?


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## Rebasepoiss

krzysiek997 said:


> Any plans on Parnu Bypas in the forseeable future?


No, and to be honest I don't currently see the need for it either. It's already a 2x2 semi-urban highway through the outskirts of the town and the speed limit is 70 km/h for much of the route. There are plans to upgrade the final section before Pärnu (between Sauga and Pärnu) to 2x2 in the near future. No grade separation, though.


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## rauno

RipleyLV said:


> Are there any new route or exiting road upgrades planned between Laagri and Tondi in Tallinn? I mean, for the T4/E67 entrance into the city.


Do you have some examples of what this (preferrably humane) upgrade could be or you mean just facelift? It is very local and I don't think people would like to turn it into highway managed with noise barriers. At the same time I know the pain of driving straight between endless Nõmme (then again commuters can leave the car outside the city and take the train). This section is not fast, but it's very stable, the problems start from Järve (only during rush hours).


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## Rebasepoiss

I did some further digging and actually found quite a few preliminary design tenders that I missed. Anyways, here's the final map for now (I hope)


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## RipleyLV

Rebasepoiss said:


> No, and on the current street there isn't really space for widening either. It's actually often quicker to take T11 and then Männiku tee to Järve to get into the city since a large portion of that road is 80-90 km/h.


That's actually a brilliant tip. Thanks!



rauno said:


> Do you have some examples of what this (preferrably humane) upgrade could be or you mean just facelift? It is very local and I don't think people would like to turn it into highway managed with noise barriers. At the same time I know the pain of driving straight between endless Nõmme (then again commuters can leave the car outside the city and take the train). This section is not fast, but it's very stable, the problems start from Järve (only during rush hours).


What I meant by upgrade is that I was curious to know whether or not you have plans to rebuild some of the main crossings of the existing route into grade separated junctions, for example, with Pärnu mnt (both ends) or Valdeku tee or road nr. 340 or road nr. 15. As T4 is rather an important entrance road into and from Tallinn.

Of course, more sense would make building a completely new route South of the existing one. Maybe connect E67 via Tallinn bypass and upgrade Männiku tee. Just wondered if there is anything up, nothing more.


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## rauno

RipleyLV said:


> What I meant by upgrade is that I was curious to know whether or not you have plans to rebuild some of the main crossings of the existing route into grade separated junctions, for example, with Pärnu mnt (both ends) or Valdeku tee or road nr. 340 or road nr. 15. As T4 is rather an important entrance road into and from Tallinn.
> Of course, more sense would make building a completely new route South of the existing one. Maybe connect E67 via Tallinn bypass and upgrade Männiku tee. Just wondered if there is anything up, nothing more.


As the small ring road coming from the north-east will connect to Valdeku, the intersection with T15 definately becomes busy and something will be planned there for sure. Because of the future connection with small ring road the existing (faster) T11 + Männiku tee (or even T11 + T15) would make sense as official entrance from Pärnu/Riga direction instead of current T4.
At the same time it is hard to imagine (at least today) Valdeku as western continuation for the small ring road. It leads to 40km/h and 30km/h residential areas in Nõmme.


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## RipleyLV

@rauno - thanks for the info! I will now drive into Tallinn diferently. 

@Rebasepoiss - As far as I remember, at the time I joined the forum, already back the you had plans to connect Tallinn and Tartu with a 2+2 highway. I guess these plans might be still as 'plans' while the 2+1 roads are just temporary before you have completed more urgent 2+2 segments.


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> @rauno - thanks for the info! I will now drive into Tallinn diferently.
> 
> @Rebasepoiss - As far as I remember, at the time I joined the forum, already back the you had plans to connect Tallinn and Tartu with a 2+2 highway. I guess these plans might be still as 'plans' while the 2+1 roads are just temporary before you have completed more urgent 2+2 segments.


There were plans for a 2x2 to Tartu already in the 90s. The corridor for a new 2x2 route was set in 1999 and the later plans largely follow this route. Things have taken a lot longer than anticipated, of course. By early to mid 2010s the Estonian Road Administration had implemented a strategy of 2+1 roads to more quickly improve the safety of existing main highways. There weren't enough funds allocated to the Road Administration to allow for wide-scale 2x2 highway construction so it only happened in places where the AADT was already at 10,000 or over that, for example on Tallinn bypass.

Other sections on T2/E263, T4/E67 and later T1/E20 were to be converted to 2+1 highways section-by-section. The current government has pretty much halted all 2+1 upgrades and promised 2x2 highways from Tallinn to Pärnu, Tartu and Narva. However, 2x2 highways require a lot more time for planning and design phases than a simple widening to 2+1 which means that apart from projects that have been in planning for years already, nothing new is going to go into contruction before 2025.

The current ambitious plans call for all remaining 1x2 sections between Tallinn and Pärnu on T4/E67 and Tallinn and Tartu on T2/E263 to be converted to 2x2 by 2030. 2+1 sections will be converted later as far as I know. For T1/E20 the 'deadline' is 2038 to reach all the way to RU border in Narva. Most likely the section from Jõhvi to Narva will be first since it has a higher AADT than Rakvere-Jõhvi. The whole thing is expected to cost at least 2 billion euros and probably very little of it will come from EU funds so the only likely solution is taking out loans or using PPP.

The next parliamentary elections are in 2023 so it may very well happen that the next government is not in agreement with taking out billions in loans to build 2x2 highways on the three main highways. Especially since Covid has already doubled the state debt in less than a year. We'll have to wait and see.


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## Leicester

Just in case you haven`t got nothing better to do, you can entertain yourself with these videos  *Not my videos and all the credit goes to the authors

Expressive Drives





















One Man Wolf Pack


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## PovilD

I kinda like road surface marking standards there, I wish more of these standards were applied in my country which has came from the same roots regarding road signage standards.
I like you consistently mark sides of the roads with dashed lanes, it creates good feeling about the road when sides are marked.
Our minor roads only gets markings in the middle, but I wish they would get marked in a way like in Estonia or Sweden, maybe there are good reasons why this standard is not used.

Btw, first video just reveals how low population density is in Estonia  It's quite unusual for me to see such long stretch of road in the forest without any significant crossways.


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## Rebasepoiss

PovilD said:


> I kinda like road surface marking standards there, I wish more of these standards were applied in my country which has came from the same roots regarding road signage standards.
> I like you consistently mark sides of the roads with dashed lanes, it creates good feeling about the road when sides are marked.
> Our minor roads only gets markings in the middle, but I wish they would get marked in a way like in Estonia or Sweden, maybe there are good reasons why this standard is not used.
> 
> Btw, first video just reveals how low population density is in Estonia  It's quite unusual for me to see such long stretch of road in the forest without any significant crossways.


The first video is from Lahemaa National Park and I've driven that road quite a few times Google Maps. It's a typical former gravel road that's now been covered in bitumen and gritstone. Lahemaa National Park is actually quite close to Tallinn, starting from only around 40 km. Not all Estonia is this forested, of course


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## RipleyLV

I bet that road through Lahemaa National Park looks epic during proper winter time! Awesome stuff! Added to my list to visit.


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## Valvejoodik

Here's just a random photo I took yesterday when Driving from Viljandi to Kilingi-Nõmme. There are some pretty nice spots on the road, once the trees were even fully covered in snow.


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## Haapsalu Kohalik

Ma proovisin lahendada palju kirutud Jüri liiklussõlme ja see on lahendus minu poolt


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## Rebasepoiss

Haapsalu Kohalik said:


> View attachment 942356
> 
> Ma proovisin lahendada palju kirutud Jüri liiklussõlme ja see on lahendus minu poolt


Only English in this forum please!


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## Wover

I thought I'd share dashcam footage from two roads that I recorded a while ago (one in December last year, the other on the last day of January this year).

*"Postitee" - Scenic former postal route*






This is a scenic tourist road that once used to have more importance when it was part of the Russian postal network connecting Tallinn with Pihkva through Tartu. The part that is now signposted as "Postitee" (start at 0:13 in the video) runs between Vooreküla and Varbuse. In Varbuse, the postal station from 1865 hosts the Estonian Road Museum (passed at 2:18), a rather fun place to visit with children, as it hosts a little traffic park with electric vehicles. The road is particularly fun to drive in the first part where it is very curvy and hilly. One of the hills (at 0:42 in the video) is called robber's hill, as supposedly that's a spot where robbers would take their shot at the slow-moving horse-drawn postal carriages going up the steep incline.

The reason I drove the road this particular time was to take a walk at Tilleoru valley hiking trail, at the end of the video. Incidentally, a crew was just installing new crash barriers of a wooden type that isn't that common, but looks aesthetically rather pleasing (you can see the crew in the end of the video). Upon returning from my hike, they had finished up and I snagged a quick snapshot:










And here's a picture of the entrance to the road museum:










*Saatse boot - road through Russia*

I believe it's come up in this topic before; there's a road connecting two Estonian towns (Värska and Saatse) which partially goes through Russian territory. It is not allowed to walk on that road, or to stop your vehicle, but there are no other restrictions in the sense that there's no border checkpoints or anything of course. Google Maps did warn me to check corona restrictions in Russia before taking this route . It was wonderful winter weather with thick snow cover.






Before I drove there, I didn't know there's actually two sections that go through Russia. The first (in the video from 0:09 to 0:30) is about 1km in length and the second (at 1:11) is just about 50m long. This second one actually doesn't show on google maps at all, a local Estonian map provider does show it (the two stretches of "yellow" road between Sesniki and Verhulitsa):










After these stretches in Russia, the video continues through the town of Värska (locally known for its mineral water and spa).


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## Leicester

Those wooden crash barriers


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## Rebasepoiss

Wover said:


> I thought I'd share dashcam footage from two roads that I recorded a while ago (one in December last year, the other on the last day of January this year).
> 
> *"Postitee" - Scenic former postal route*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a scenic tourist road that once used to have more importance when it was part of the Russian postal network connecting Tallinn with Pihkva through Tartu. The part that is now signposted as "Postitee" (start at 0:13 in the video) runs between Vooreküla and Varbuse. In Varbuse, the postal station from 1865 hosts the Estonian Road Museum (passed at 2:18), a rather fun place to visit with children, as it hosts a little traffic park with electric vehicles. The road is particularly fun to drive in the first part where it is very curvy and hilly. One of the hills (at 0:42 in the video) is called robber's hill, as supposedly that's a spot where robbers would take their shot at the slow-moving horse-drawn postal carriages going up the steep incline.
> 
> The reason I drove the road this particular time was to take a walk at Tilleoru valley hiking trail, at the end of the video. Incidentally, a crew was just installing new crash barriers of a wooden type that isn't that common, but looks aesthetically rather pleasing (you can see the crew in the end of the video). Upon returning from my hike, they had finished up and I snagged a quick snapshot:
> 
> View attachment 1179555
> 
> 
> And here's a picture of the entrance to the road museum:
> 
> View attachment 1179560
> 
> 
> *Saatse boot - road through Russia*
> 
> I believe it's come up in this topic before; there's a road connecting two Estonian towns (Värska and Saatse) which partially goes through Russian territory. It is not allowed to walk on that road, or to stop your vehicle, but there are no other restrictions in the sense that there's no border checkpoints or anything of course. Google Maps did warn me to check corona restrictions in Russia before taking this route . It was wonderful winter weather with thick snow cover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before I drove there, I didn't know there's actually two sections that go through Russia. The first (in the video from 0:09 to 0:30) is about 1km in length and the second (at 1:11) is just about 50m long. This second one actually doesn't show on google maps at all, a local Estonian map provider does show it (the two stretches of "yellow" road between Sesniki and Verhulitsa):
> 
> View attachment 1179599
> 
> 
> After these stretches in Russia, the video continues through the town of Värska (locally known for its mineral water and spa).


The road through the small and big Saatse boots was finally paved last summer with the help of the EstRus Cross Border Cooperation Programme:
































Source: https://maaleht.delfi.ee/artikkel/8...eNwNkrec8bm_vJFqDomW-K6vv0pSNHlvsc1n8E4BUZiZM


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## RipleyLV

Interesting videos and road! I had no idea about that Russian part until now.



Wover said:


> This second one actually doesn't show on google maps at all, a local Estonian map provider does show it (the two stretches of "yellow" road between Sesniki and Verhulitsa):


I guess the borders aren't drawn precisely on GM, if you switch to satellite mode then you'll see a physical border crossing on that road segment.


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## Rebasepoiss

RipleyLV said:


> Interesting videos and road! I had no idea about that Russian part until now.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the borders aren't drawn precisely on GM, if you switch to satellite mode then you'll see a physical border crossing on that road segment.


Tom Scott made a video about it around 5 years ago, by the way, which also explains the background a bit. And to answer one of the questions raised in the video - yes, you are allowed to ride your bike across the boot as well. A friend of mine actually has an off-the-grid old farm house as a summer cottage in Sesniki which is just next to the boot and he has ridden across it on bicycle several times.





More info here: Travelling near the Saatse Boot area


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## RipleyLV

Why wouldn't you be able to ride a bike there? I mean, there are clearly no restriction signs apart from the pedestrian sign and no warning on the big yellow sign about that (just that you can't stop your vehicle (as in bike, motorcycle, car, etc.)). I'd tell the Russian guard or bear to sod off, if they were around 😂


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## PovilD

Those boots through Russia makes me think about hypothetical Belarus-Kaliningrad connection through Lithuania or Poland  ....and utopian Lithuania-Poland connection through Kaliningrad 

...like building some separate road or motorway through the foreign land.


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## loutalica

Italy and Yugoslavia had such road, through italian territory. A few years ago, Bosnia proposed to Croatia to build such a road near Neum, but the proposal was rejected by both Croatia and the citizens of Neum. I do not know why.


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## Wover

With the risk of going off-topic (maybe a separate topic is warranted?); I found a similar Slovenian road through Italy: Google Maps

On Italian territory, the road is completely fenced off on both sides


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## Rebasepoiss

Wover said:


> With the risk of going off-topic (maybe a separate topic is warranted?); I found a similar Slovenian road through Italy: Google Maps
> 
> On Italian territory, the road is completely fenced off on both sides


Yeah, there are more examples like this in Europe. One is the airport road from Basel (in Switzerland) to Basel-Mulhouse-Freiburg airport (in France). The road runs parallel to the A35 motorway but is completely fenced-off and grade separated from the rest of the road network in France. The airport itself is also split between the Swiss and the French side. On that road stopping is also prohibited: Google Maps


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## RipleyLV

Wover said:


> With the risk of going off-topic (maybe a separate topic is warranted?); I found a similar Slovenian road through Italy: Google Maps
> 
> On Italian territory, the road is completely fenced off on both sides


Well, I personally find this road not that special, in any case, you can get into Slovenia/Italy easily there and around because of the Schengen. What makes the Estonian road unique, is that it goes through Russian territory where you can't just simply cross the border without check-ups/VISA/etc.. If you are one of those people collecting visited countries, then while visiting Estonia you can drive up on that road and add Russia to your visited country map later on. 😂


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## Leicester

Not a big project but Nordecon has made a nice video about it, so I thought I`d post it here. Snowy estonian small town vibes ❄ 🏠


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## MacOlej

Wover said:


> *Saatse boot - road through Russia*


I'm wondering what happens when you have an accident on this road (I believe car traffic is very small there but you can always hit a deer or another animal) and your insurance is only valid within EU. As this road seems to be maintained by the Estonians, I'd argue that insurance should apply. However, knowing how eager insurance companies are to avoid payouts, they'd probably argue that you were in Russia.


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## PovilD

MacOlej said:


> I'm wondering what happens when you have an accident on this road (I believe car traffic is very small there but you can always hit a deer or another animal) and your insurance is only valid within EU. As this road seems to be maintained by the Estonians, I'd argue that insurance should apply. However, knowing how eager insurance companies are to avoid payouts, they'd probably argue that you were in Russia.


Those roads are very interesting with which systems apply there, does Estonian law applies there, or Russian, or is just anarchy?


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## eucitizen

MacOlej said:


> I'm wondering what happens when you have an accident on this road (I believe car traffic is very small there but you can always hit a deer or another animal) and your insurance is only valid within EU. As this road seems to be maintained by the Estonians, I'd argue that insurance should apply. However, knowing how eager insurance companies are to avoid payouts, they'd probably argue that you were in Russia.


Russia is part of the green card insurance system. I have, for example, Allianz and they told me that their casco insurance is valid in the european part of Russia, as the country is in the green card system.


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## Rebasepoiss

MacOlej said:


> I'm wondering what happens when you have an accident on this road (I believe car traffic is very small there but you can always hit a deer or another animal) and your insurance is only valid within EU. As this road seems to be maintained by the Estonians, I'd argue that insurance should apply. However, knowing how eager insurance companies are to avoid payouts, they'd probably argue that you were in Russia.


This section of road is similar to a transit zone in an airport. There is an agreement that certain rules don't apply there but legally the zone is still part of the host country. The same goes for that section of road. Estonia and Russia have agreed that you are allowed to drive (or ride a bike) through Russia without stopping there but legally-speaking you are still driving through Russia. So my bet would be that if you get in an accident then Russian rules apply.

When they were reconstructing that section of road they had to get the necessary building permissions from Russia and do all the required paperwork according to Russian rules and standards. I'm not sure about regular road maintenance like plowing snow but I'm pretty sure that's done by Estonia as well, considering there's not direct road access from Russia.


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## Eulanthe

I asked an Estonian friend about this, and he checked directly with the Estonian police. They said that if you get into an accident there, it'll be dealt with by the Russian police. It can be problematic, as for instance, my Polish car insurance is third-party online in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus.


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## RipleyLV

But what are the chances of getting into an accident there, really? I mean deers or any other larger size animal most likely won't cross the road since there is a fence around? With an other vehicle? Then to ask - how can that happen?


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## MattiG

RipleyLV said:


> But what are the chances of getting into an accident there, really? I mean deers or any other larger size animal most likely won't cross the road since there is a fence around? With an other vehicle? Then to ask - how can that happen?


An accident can always occur.

(Murphy was an optimist.)


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## Leicester

Road infrastructure investments through the years:

Yellow line is "from the state budget" and green one is "forgein investments (the EU ofcourse)".










Source: Tänavu arendatakse Eesti riigiteede võrku rekordilise 253 miljoni euro eest | Transpordiamet (from the presentation that can be found from the bottom of the article).


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## Rebasepoiss

Hasper said:


> New drone fotage of the Sillamae interchange on E20 from local media:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The new section starts from 4:00 and the new interchange can be seen at 6:00.


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## PovilD

Hasper said:


> New drone fotage of the Sillamae interchange on E20 from local media:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Those Nordic churches protruding through commieblocks in Estonia makes me think about how altering history can be.

Btw, at least new junctions are pretty much Nordic 😅


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## Hasper

PovilD said:


> Those Nordic churches protruding through commieblocks in Estonia makes me think about how altering history can be.


You mean this "Nordic church"? It is actually a Town hall from 1950, so very commie 









While Sillamae does have churches, they were built in modern times.


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## Rebasepoiss

Hasper said:


> You mean this "Nordic church"? It is actually a Town hall from 1950, so very commie
> View attachment 3361501
> 
> 
> While Sillamae does have churches, they were built in modern times.


Sillamäe has the most impressive Stalinist town centre in Estonia. Other than that it's a rather typical sad Soviet-era industrial town. But that's a bit OT already


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## PovilD

Hasper said:


> You mean this "Nordic church"? It is actually a Town hall from 1950, so very commie
> View attachment 3361501
> 
> 
> While Sillamae does have churches, they were built in modern times.


Those with sharp towers, traditional Lutheran Gothic(-influenced) churches


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## ChrisZwolle

3 kilometers of the Highway 2 (Tallinn - Tartu Highway) opened to traffic yesterday near the village of Anna:









New stretch of Tallinn-Tartu Highway opened to traffic


Located between Anna and Kükita Cafe, a new 3-kilometer stretch of the Võõbu-Mäo section of Tallinn-Tartu Highway was opened to traffic on Wednesday.




news.err.ee


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> 3 kilometers of the Highway 2 (Tallinn - Tartu Highway) opened to traffic yesterday near the village of Anna:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New stretch of Tallinn-Tartu Highway opened to traffic
> 
> 
> Located between Anna and Kükita Cafe, a new 3-kilometer stretch of the Võõbu-Mäo section of Tallinn-Tartu Highway was opened to traffic on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.err.ee


Here: OpenStreetMap


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## Rebasepoiss

Quoting from the Estonian forum


Leicester said:


> *Via Baltica
> 
> Pärnu - Uulu 2+ 2 *
> View attachment 3829305
> 
> View attachment 3829309
> 
> View attachment 3829310
> 
> View attachment 3829312
> 
> 
> Allikas: Pärnu Postimees


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## Rebasepoiss

The 2x2 section between Võõbu and Mäo on T2/E263 is nearing completion. Here's a drone video from two days ago (I suggest setting the playback speed to 2x):





As of yesterday traffic has been diverted to the new route, although only to one carriageay as a 1x2 highway until all works are finished. There is a short 2x2 section under construction close to Tartu as well which is supposed to be finished this year but other than that we probably won't see another 2x2 section opening on this highway in the next 5 years at least. The budget for the Road Administration has been cut significantly and basically all new investments and upgrades have been put on hold.


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## sponge_bob

Why was this policy brought in?? Is it to pay for Baltic Rail??


Rebasepoiss said:


> The budget for the Road Administration has been cut significantly and basically all new investments and upgrades have been put on hold.


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## ChrisZwolle

Probably inflation? There was news that the Baltic countries have the highest inflation in the EU. This makes it difficult to undertake multi-year contracts, as no contractor can guarantee to complete it for the price they offered.


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## sponge_bob

Many countries have now instituted claim systems for cost overages on concrete steel and asphalt now. But that could be eating into next years budget already of course.

If you try holding contractors to 2020 quotes then the contractors are doomed and you lose your civil engineering capacity as they go bust.


ChrisZwolle said:


> Probably inflation? There was news that the Baltic countries have the highest inflation in the EU. This makes it difficult to undertake multi-year contracts, as no contractor can guarantee to complete it for the price they offered.


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## Rebasepoiss

sponge_bob said:


> Why was this policy brought in?? Is it to pay for Baltic Rail??


Reallocation of the national budget mostly. 

For the 2023 national budget the biggest increases are a significant increase in salaries for certain public workers like teachers, the police and rescue workers; subsidies for electricity, gas and heating and the biggest of them all - national defence.

Rail Baltica is a long-term ongoing project with an opening date (for the Estonian part) of 2030 and it's mostly financed by the EU which means the yearly expenses coming from the national budget aren't that significant.

When it comes to highway development the biggest mistake IMO was made by the mostly conservative government from 2019 to 2021 which decided to scrap the earlier idea of upgrading the most important highways to 2+1 and instead focus only on 2x2 highways. This meant that the Road Administration had to start the process of re-designing sections where designs for an 2+1 upgrade were already in place. For a lot of people it was clear from the start that the idea of spending € 2 billion before 2030 to upgrade E20, E67 and most of E263 in Estonia to 2x2 was insane. Now it has been publicly stated that this would indeed not be feasible nor sustainable.


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## Cookiefabric

@Rebasepoiss I do not agree with you. Driving the 2x2 section of T1 / T2 / T4 is way more relaxed to do then the 2+1 T4. I don't see any improvement on those 2+1 compared to the regular 2x1 Main Road (2x3,75+ 2x0,25 correction error) -- Mainly to short sections with the 2nd lane, causing tail gating & (almost) bumper scraping "moving back" at the last meters of the 2nd lane. 
That behaviour is near non-existing on the 2x2/2x3 sections


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## MattiG

Cookiefabric said:


> @Rebasepoiss I do not agree with you. Driving the 2x2 section of T1 / T2 / T4 is way more relaxed to do then the 2+1 T4. I don't see any improvement on those 2+1 compared to the regular 2x1 Main Road (2x3,75+ 2x0,25 correction error) -- Mainly to short sections with the 2nd lane, causing tail gating & (almost) bumper scraping "moving back" at the last meters of the 2nd lane.
> That behaviour is near non-existing on the 2x2/2x3 sections


Of course, 2+2 is better than 2+1. However, in most cases, money talks, too. 2+1 is much better than 1+1 especially in sparsely populated countries on rural roads having less intersections. In the crowded Central Europe on roads entering villages and cities every few kilometre they have less value.


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## sponge_bob

There is relatively little difference in cost, perhaps 15-20%, and the Ten-T directive probably rules out a 2+1 on the Talinn- Riga section where most 2+1 was then planned IIRC. 



Rebasepoiss said:


> When it comes to highway development the biggest mistake IMO was made by the mostly conservative government from 2019 to 2021 which decided to scrap the earlier idea of upgrading the most important highways to 2+1 and instead focus only on 2x2 highways. .


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## Rebasepoiss

Cookiefabric said:


> @Rebasepoiss I do not agree with you. Driving the 2x2 section of T1 / T2 / T4 is way more relaxed to do then the 2+1 T4. I don't see any improvement on those 2+1 compared to the regular 2x1 Main Road (2x3,75+ 2x0,25 correction error) -- Mainly to short sections with the 2nd lane, causing tail gating & (almost) bumper scraping "moving back" at the last meters of the 2nd lane.
> That behaviour is near non-existing on the 2x2/2x3 sections


Of course it's more relaxed. If money were no issue we'd probably have motorways all over the place by now.

The current issue with 2+1 highways in Estonia is that it's only a few short sections between long 1x2 highway sections. This means by the time the 2+1 section starts you may have had a long line of cars formed already (behind a lorry, for example). If you had 2+1 sections at every few km that wouldn't happen and those issues would be diminished.

2+1 highways more or less eliminate the most deadly type of accidents on rural highways - head-on collisions. Whether you feel "relaxed" or not driving on it is not that important. I myself find 2+1 a lot nicer to drive on than regular 1x2.



sponge_bob said:


> There is relatively little difference in cost, perhaps 15-20%, and the Ten-T directive probably rules out a 2+1 on the Talinn- Riga section where most 2+1 was then planned IIRC.


If you build a 2+1 as a fully grade-separated limited access highway then yes, there is no point building a 2+1 highway at all. However, if you build the 2+1 sections just as overtaking areas on an otherwise 1x2 highway then a 2+1 highway can be up to 4 times cheaper. That is the Estonian experience, at least. For example, this 2+1 section cost 1 million per km. A 2x2 highway is usually € 4 million and up.

At first a large portion of 2+1 was planned between Põltsamaa and Tartu. IIRC the idea was to build 15 2+1 sections there. By now 8 have been built. If you asked me whether I'd prefer 15 km of 2x2 and then 45 km of 1x2 OR 60 km of 2+1 then I'd take the latter any day.

Estonia actually has a decent amount of 2x2 highways for the number of people. By the end of 2022 Estonia will have around 215 km of 2x2 highways. This comes out to around 165 km per million people. In Poland the equivalent metric is 124 km (as of September 2022). Estonia is just that sparsely populated with nearly half the population living in and around Tallinn. There is little actual point in having 600 km of 2x2 highways criss-crossing the country.


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## Cookiefabric

In your example:
-> No hard shoulders (saving at least 4M of paved road)
-> Busstop on the main road
-> side roads are missing or unpaved
-> no grade-seperate crossings

€ 1 million / km feels actually a bit expensive in a country that is able to match construction costs of Spain.
I'm aware that the average cost of 1 KM full profile motorway (or Kiirtee) is in the regions of 7 to 10 million euro (A5 in LT shows this number, for example).


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## Rebasepoiss

Cookiefabric said:


> In your example:
> -> No hard shoulders (saving at least 4M of paved road)
> -> Busstop on the main road
> -> side roads are missing or unpaved
> -> no grade-seperate crossings
> 
> € 1 million / km feels actually a bit expensive in a country that is able to match construction costs of Spain.
> I'm aware that the average cost of 1 KM full profile motorway (or Kiirtee) is in the regions of 7 to 10 million euro (A5 in LT shows this number, for example).


Yep, that was my point. A 2+1 highway doesn't necessarily need all of those things you listed above. However, a 2x2 does.

A narrow cross-section 2x2 can be built for as low as 3.7 million per km in Estonia. For example, the new Võõbu-Mäo 2x2 section on E263 costs 58.7 million for 16 km. Granted, it's on a completely different route from the old highway which makes it possible to build relatively few interchanges and access roads. That specific section includes only one new interchange.


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## PovilD

2+1 is good on low density areas with low truck share.
Sweden is probably perfect country for those.
Baltics could also have more 2+1 in similar low density areas as with Swedish 2+1 sections.

Via Baltica should be 2x2 (still no news about Lithuanian section, but I'm anxious if we will get 2+1).


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## PovilD

True budget Scandi 2+2 should be 3.25 m inner (passing) lanes, and 3.5 m outer lanes, narrow maybe 0.5 m width median and no hard shoulders.
I wouldn't be surprised if we get smth in our Via Baltica, but more likely budget 3.5 m width lanes.

I think Scandinavian goes as far as all lanes are 3.25 m


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## The Wild Boy

In my opinion, Baltic countries should just upgrade roads to 4 lanes (lower standard or motorway standard) when there's traffic only over 10-11k AADT. Anything else from 6-7 to 9k AADT should imo just be 1+2 roads (varying between 1+2 and 2+1 / Nordic solution), which should be fine. The Baltic countries are safer in terms of driving compared to Balkan countries, but they are still behind in terms of safety compared to countries in Western and maybe Central Europe. 

I personally think that Rail Baltica will actually get many people to ride trains, it will be much safer, faster (trains riding at 250 km/h), it will serve many areas equally, it will get some people off the roads and i think it will be fine in terms of road traffic levels. Assuring that these 1+2 roads have the ROW (Right of Way) to get expanded to 4 lanes in the future, would be a nice addition. 

And that's how the Baltics will actually get more people to travel by trains, and if there will be any traffic increases on the roads then simply upgrading these roads to 4 lanes should be enough. 

I also don't think that the Baltic countries should blow billions of euros to make most of their roads 4 laned, and then barely have the traffic levels to justify those 4 laned expansions.


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## jotjot

There are plans to upgrade a modest 3 km section in Tallinn-Paldiski (road 8) to 2+2 during 2024-2025. AADT in that section is 12 - 20K. 
Tallinn−Paldiski maantee Tähetorni−Harku lõigu eelprojekti visualiseering - YouTube


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