# Underground Cities



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

*Pedestrian tunnel networks underneath cities.*

In some major cities around the world, there are extensive networks of tunnel underneath city centres or downtown areas. This is mostly common in North America particularly in Houston, Montreal, etc.

These tunnels are sometimes connected through metro stations or office buildings and contains commercial and entertainment establishments.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

One example would be the *Houston Tunnel System* underneath The Downtown area.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

WANCH said:


> In some major cities around the world, there are extensive networks of tunnel underneath city centres or downtown areas. This is mostly common in North America particularly in Houston, Montreal, etc.
> 
> These tunnels are sometimes connected through metro stations or office buildings and contains commercial and entertainment establishments.


I'm actually not a fan of them except in extreme climates (Montreal is a good example of that). They seem to result in dead streetscapes. One thing I love about cities is the buzz you get from pedestrians on the street. It's like segregating people from the city to make them plunge underground. 

(Plus being inside all the time is stuffy... Fresh air is a good thing!)


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

I already have a thread on this topic with an article of Seoul's underground world from 2009 in this section :

 Underground Cities


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm really not a fan. Sometimes people need to be kept away from roads if they are very big, too big to cross. But I would rather have glass sided bridges. 

In England we have quite a few pedestrian tunnels. Close to my home in Sheffield there are several under passes on the Ring Road. They are needed as trying to get a lot of people over an 8 lane road is not easy lol.

But I would rather see a glass sided bridge or at least bars. It stops people getting scared by crime as they are very visible from the ground rather than being hidden in a tunnel...


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Chicago also has a network of underground pedestrian walkways however it is relatively small compared with the ones in Houston, Toronto, and Montreal.










Also cities such as Minneapolis, St. Paul, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Calgary have above ground pedestrian walkways that are climate controlled.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

I'm not a fan either but it this is becoming very common in most major cities including HK to some extent.


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## Marcanadian (May 7, 2005)

Toronto's PATH network is the largest underground shopping complex in the world, at 28 kilometres and over 1200 stores. I think Toronto's street life is vibrant enough, I don't know many people who use the PATH system on a regular basis. It is useful for our climate, since the snow can get heavy at times, and very useful for subway commuters. 


http://www.torontopath.com/uploads/PathMap.pdf


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## Dimethyltryptamine (Aug 22, 2009)

I don't like the idea myself. Glad we have a nice climate here and no need for it. Keeps the streets plenty busy.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Toronto's underground city is insane, I remember actually getting lost in it when I was there.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Underground pedestrian tunnels, if properly cleaned and lit, are a great solution. They protect against weather (rain, heat, cold, snow) and solve problems of interference with streets, highways, railways etc.

If they are planned as part of construction of major building complexes, they are relatively cheap to embed in the blocks also. Of course, being buried means it uses less energy to heat or cool.

In the case of some North American cities like Houston or Montréal, they are essential to allow any longer-than-200m walking stroll, considering the harsh climate of them over summer and winter.

New York would do good with some pedestrian tunnels also, particularly downtown and around Times Square.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Apart from underpasses, there arent any here.


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

WANCH said:


> One example would be the *Houston Tunnel System* underneath The Downtown area.


Is there a reason for having those tunnels in Houston

I knew the ones in Canadian cities as Montreal or Toronto were built because of the severe winters, but in Southern Texas the climate is way different


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

^^Extreme heat?


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## GSAA (Nov 2, 2009)

Svartmetall said:


> I'm actually not a fan of them except in extreme climates (Montreal is a good example of that). They seem to result in dead streetscapes. One thing I love about cities is the buzz you get from pedestrians on the street. It's like segregating people from the city to make them plunge underground.
> 
> (Plus being inside all the time is stuffy... Fresh air is a good thing!)


I agree, Houston's (which was mentioned as an example) downtown seems like a large city which has been deserted overnight. Here's one of downtown's main streets: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...EHCY8ToOxiOrbRIB62zfWA&cbp=12,132.89,,0,-4.74


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

^^Houston is known to be a drive thru and park city...
No to mention that lots US downtown that only hold skyscrapers for working feel deserted. In most US cities, downtwon is not the place to look for streetlife. It's mostly in other neighborhoods you can find that...


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

joshsam said:


> ^^Houston is known to be a drive thru and park city...
> No to mention that lots US downtown that only hold skyscrapers for working feel deserted. In most US cities, downtwon is not the place to look for streetlife. It's mostly in other neighborhoods you can find that...


That's starting to change though since there has been an increase in mixed use residential development in Downtown Houston. Also for a while the nightlife scene in Downtown used to be packed.

And yes when it is 104 F (40C) outside those tunnels do come in handy.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ It it just not feasible to have people happily walking on streets under humid summers. Particularly if, like in US, you spend most of the time in a/c at house, school, workplace, always in environments with temps around 21-24 oC.

Same happens with Phoenix but, geez, how are you supposed to have "street activity" in a place that burns your shoes? It is as unrealistic as expecting people in Edmonton to go out for a stroll in the middle of a windy night in winter.

The Americas as continent have far harsh climate than Europe, be it in terms of temperatures, wind speed etc. Rich cities and people adjust accordingly.

Coffee in a promenade in Paris with 1,7 m/s breeze, 61% humidity, 24 oC = nice

Coffee in an open yard in Houston with 5 m/s breeze, 80% humidity, 38 oC = not really interesting.


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## CWB_IAH (Mar 1, 2010)

Here are some more pictures of the Houston tunnel system. The system is around 10 kms long and about 6 m about street level. It connects 95 blocks and many of the major commercial buildings. 

All pictures were taken by me (cell phone, that is why the quality is not that great).

^^

And I agree with the post above, the weather in Houston is horrible during the summer (May through September). But the rest of the year is just fine. so I think improving the "walkability" and street life in Houston is definitely worth a shot.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ It it just not feasible to have people happily walking on streets under humid summers. Particularly if, like in US, you spend most of the time in a/c at house, school, workplace, always in environments with temps around 21-24 oC.
> 
> Same happens with Phoenix but, geez, how are you supposed to have "street activity" in a place that burns your shoes? It is as unrealistic as expecting people in Edmonton to go out for a stroll in the middle of a windy night in winter.


For some weird reasons it seems to be working in central Chicago though. 



> 9
> Coffee in an open yard in Houston with 5 m/s breeze, 80% humidity, 38 oC = not really interesting.


Thats why coffee houses have invented indoor space. It certainly takes away the meditarranean street life feel but enables a lively city with a mix of functions as well.


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## Dahlis (Aug 29, 2008)

Im not in favour of putting people underground. Traffic and railways however are a good idea.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Marcanadian said:


> In regards to ssiguy2's comments, I agree that the system has prevented more pedestrian activity at ground level, but there's no real reason to be in the CBD after business hours.


Well they'd be no reason to be on Yonge Street either if you forgot to build the stores, restaurants, salons, etc. There's no reason to be in the CBD after business hours *because of* PATH.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Dahlis said:


> Im not in favour of putting people underground. Traffic and railways however are a good idea.


I'd normally agree with that, but there are some instances where it's not only needed but beneficial.


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## Marcanadian (May 7, 2005)

isaidso said:


> Well they'd be no reason to be on Yonge Street either if you forgot to build the stores, restaurants, salons, etc. There's no reason to be in the CBD after business hours *because of* PATH.


I think we're overestimating how much traffic PATH takes away from street level. I guarantee that if the CBD had more restaurants and shops, people would visit them. As we see new residential/hotel towers like Trump and Shangri-La, new restaurants and shops are beginning to open up in the CBD. I would much rather stay above ground than go below ground, unless the weather is extreme. So I don't think it's solely the fault of PATH that the CBD doesn't have other uses. Like I said before, most CBD's are very similar to Toronto's. They're basically cousins of the suburban office park.


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## turangalia (Mar 16, 2012)

TORONTO PATH is an underground shopping mall
MONTREAL RESO is an underground city with malls, museums, congress center and much more.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Although it looks nice, I can't bear going into Montreal's RESO. I always take the street, it's twice as fast anyhow ...


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

turangalia said:


> TORONTO PATH is an underground shopping mall
> MONTREAL RESO is an underground city with malls, museums, congress center and much more.


Actually the Design Exchange, Air Canada Centre, Ryerson University, City Hall, and the Hockey Hall of Fame in Toronto are accesible thru the PATH Network as well so there really is no difference between the two systems as far as amenities are concerned.



isaidso said:


> Well they'd be no reason to be on Yonge Street either if you forgot to build the stores, restaurants, salons, etc. There's no reason to be in the CBD after business hours *because of* PATH.


Anytime you have a high concentration of office buildings in a certain neighborhood instead of mixed use development, it tends to be dead afterhours as people have little to no reason to be there so I don't see the PATH network changing that anytime soon. Even parts of Manhattan (such as Lower Manhattan around the NYSE which tend to be dominated by offices) tend to be deserted afterhours despite the fact that there are no underground pedestrian walkways.


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## montréaliste (Nov 5, 2011)

Having a Path or Reso system in Toronto and Montreal has helped these cities retain pedestrian activity in the core. One can argue that without these extra functionalities, suburban centers would be more competitive with the CBD's because shopping malls and other amenities lure people away from the core. If the downtown cores of these cities offer more rather than less connections underground, there will be increased traffic above since these tunnels are really just more options for downtown dwellers, shoppers, tourists and commuters. Also, Montreal and Toronto are not only bitterly cold for a good part of the year, they are also very hot and humid in the summertime, and these tunnels offer relief yearround.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Just the opposite's ultimately found to be the opposite in either Edmonton's or Calgary's elevated forms of climate control ... besides, show me one Canadia/en --PFFT-- clubbah who bags her/his dancin' shoes to and from the disco wintertime :hahano: prudishness is merely a subscription


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

Chicago's system is pretty small and was developed without any centralized design. Buildings would connect to buildings when it made sense, and then they would connect with others if that made sense. As a result it isn't really united or used to the degree it could be. I actually use the system to get from the subway system to within 2 blocks of my office building BECAUSE I can avoid all the pedestrian traffic on the streets. It makes it faster.

One interesting note that's probably a huge reason why Chicago doesn't have more of a sytem is because there are small train track tunnels below every street in the downtown area. They were built in the early 20th century, and delivered mail, coal, merchandise, and anything else you could imagine. It was developed because the streets were far too busy to get all the daily supplies into place as was needed. They were almost secretly designed and constructed without much public knowledge. They were used until around 1960. It's one reason that Chicago has few subways. It made contruction more complicated with dozens of miles of tunnels below all streets.

As you can see - the pedestrian network runs in the middle of blocks between building - NOT under streets.










Here is a map of the tunnel network.










The tunnels themselves.










An intersting story was from 1992, and the "Great Chicago Flood". The tunnels had been shut down and literally forgotten for 30 years. They were just a bit too short and narrow to really be used as pedestrian paths or other services. A project was slamming wooden pilings down into the Chicago River near a bridge. They had no idea, but they were slamming them down inches away from one of these tunnels that crossed under all the bridges downtown. A utility worker who was wondering a tunnel doing an inspection (utilities did use them to easily run wires around downtown) noticed mud and water coming through. He mentioned something, but it moved very slowly up the system since no one was really in charge of these issues. At around 6am in April of 1992 - the water broke through and suddenly buildings all around downtown Chicago were frantically reporting that all their underground floors were flooding with water. First the Merchandise Mart....then City Hall.....then the Federal Building....then the main department stores....office buildings...colleges..then the entire subway system that served hundreds of thousands a day....and on and on and on. The city was in full panic mode telling hundreds of thousands of workers and visitors to stay away from downtown. In the end hundreds of buildings flooded, power was cut, subways shut down (they were built in place of the tunnels in places where they passed - but the tunnels still had connections here and there) for a long time.

The city didn't know how to stop the flooding - and it was so bad it created a whirlpool in the middle of the Chicago River with water gushing into the tunnels and spreading through hundreds of buildings. In the end they dumped sandbags, rocks, and even bed mattresses into the whirlpool to do anything to stop or at least slow the flow. obviously they finally stopped it and then got scuba divers to seal the holes before pumping out an enourmous amount of water.










So. Chicago was reminded the tunnels exist. They're still there, but obviously much more secure and SEALED where they connect with old buildings where they delivered mail, coal and good for decades.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Altogether fascinating, this one especially:


Chicagoago said:


>


Atlanta, now Chicago, I wonder what other city have them...


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Toronto's PATH doesn't effect the city after 5 or on weekends as no one in their right mind which actually use it. 

The troublem with PATH is not so much that it exists but rather that Toronto is expanding it but has at the same time left the street to rot. PATH has so absorbed the pedestrian foot traffic that even on lovely days people still use it because there is nothing it the business area for shopping or restaurants. This is very different from Montreal where there are many options and Calgary's +15 system where it has very easy access to the 8th Ave Pedestrian Mall.........Canada's most successful pedestrian only street. 

Yes, as downtown Toronto's population continues to soar then there will be more traffic but only people walking past the business district to another.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

My recollection is that Toronto's warren was neglected and thus decrepit. Also, its passageways were narrow and had virtually no alignment, what with its kinks and offsets that easily disoriented you underground there.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Unlike Montreal where at the business district there is tons of shopping and restaurants right at the door in Toronto it's 2 or 3 blocks to the nearest street level traffic. Toronto business district is a mistake of epic proportions and I could understand business travellers who stay in the business core walking away with a rather unflattering view of the city.


You aren't talking about the "business district"...you are talking about the "Financial District", which is a small part of Toronto's much larger "CBD"

Montreal doesn't have a "financial district" (and neither do a lot of cities). And I don't think I'd call them "mistakes" as they add considerable wealth to their host cities. Wall Street isn't exactly the liveliest part of Manhattan either, but who cares.



KGB


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

:weird:...


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

I wonder what politics must explain the omission of the maze of tunnels serving Concordia's campuses to Montreal's Guy station from the transit authority's underground city and city centre maps, published 2011 and 2012 respectively ... those passageways've already been around a few years if not several ...


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

Perhaps it's not part of a contiguous network?

Toronto's PATH is just one contiguous (by foot) underground system. It does not include the many other underground networks attached to subway stations that are not connected to PATH by foot, but are still connected underground by subway.

Queen's Park is a good example of a rather extensive network of underground connections not published to my knowledge....the whole government of Ontario campus, Mars, Hydro building and all those hospital buildings.

Add in College Park, Bloor/Bay (Yorkville), St Clair, Eglinton, North York and the contiguous underground city (by subway) becomes considerably larger than just PATH (which on its own is already the largest).

In fact, since both Montreal and Toronto's underground city's are connected to VIA, it is possible for Torontonians/Montrealers to be "underground tourists" without ever going outside (although VIA trains technically don't make an underground connection).



KGB


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## DanielFigFoz (Mar 10, 2007)

Marcanadian said:


> For example, this is London's 'City' on a Sunday:
> 
> 
> 
> I should have taken a few more photos, but I assure you the area was nearly empty.


The City is very empty indeed on a Sunday. A bit less around St Paul's and over London Bridge and such, but other than that it really is a ghost town on a Sunday.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Having to traipse right on through a :yawn: store (or two?) is what made much of Toronto's own share contiguous.

No, it must be polieconomics, because even non-RÉSO passageways get mapped.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Goreme, Turkey

Underground towns were built throughout the area as refuge from invading armies. These intricate structures include residences, stables, wine cellars, shrines, and traps. Surprisingly, they various underground levels were all properly ventilated. Here's the underground town at Kaymakli.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2012)

not a fan of that idea!


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## castermaild55 (Sep 8, 2005)

tokyo marunouchi erea

it is conected JR tokyo starion, subway otemachi, nihonbashi ,kyobashi....










osaka has much bigger one


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

impressive.
It reminds me some points of Montreal's underground malls


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## italiano_pellicano (Feb 22, 2010)

very nice


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## Shaddorry (Nov 8, 2012)

In Brussels you have the Debrouckere Tunnels, Central station hall and Gare Midi shopping Tunnels.

Debrouckere:









Gare Centrale:


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## wecantski (Feb 16, 2009)

terrible idea. Weather is part of being outside if you are that worried about it stay at home


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## AQ. (Jun 26, 2013)

Topic is very interesting. I'm in Vietnam, I was researching the underground space. Please do introduce additional underground space in other cities. Thank.


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

Underground cities are awesome, especially when the connect several metro stations


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

009 said:


> Underground cities are awesome, especially when the connect several metro stations


The Tokyo ones are particularly impressive. They're like massive, well kept cities underground. All of them seem to look pretty flashy as well. I love how busy they all are.


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## 009 (Nov 28, 2007)

Svartmetall said:


> The Tokyo ones are particularly impressive. They're like massive, well kept cities underground. All of them seem to look pretty flashy as well. I love how busy they all are.


I agree, I love the way the Japanese build around their metro stations, I wish every country did the same


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## castermaild55 (Sep 8, 2005)

Osaka umeda






Nagoya; under central park


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Are there plans of those Japanese underground malls?


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## mckeenan (Apr 17, 2013)

wecantski said:


> terrible idea. Weather is part of being outside if you are that worried about it stay at home


That's nonsense. Imagine cities suffering very cold climates, as Montreal.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

I think Calgary's Plus15/30 system is far nicer than any of them. 

Calgary has cold winters but instead of all the offices being connected underground they are connected over ground hence the name..............you walk over the streets not under them. At least you can still see people walking about and they are far more pleasant as you don't feel like a mole and you get natural sunlight. 

Calgary's system is more long than box like in style so on the nice days {and Calgary has many as it is a very sunny city} you are never far from the Stephen Avenue Mall which is, by far, Canada's most successful outdoor pedestrian-only street. 

Toronto's system is not only unpleasant but in building it they have left the streets above it to rot. This is why even in nice days the system is busy. At lunch even if you want to get out of your cubicle there are very few places to actually go to on the street for lunch.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Better even than the Japanese examples? I really like the Tokyo/Osaka ones in particular. The integration with the train/metro systems is what really makes them work so well.


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## castermaild55 (Sep 8, 2005)

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Are there plans of those Japanese underground malls?


there are so many passengers at each stations.
as for shinjuku, there are more than 3 millions /day.
it is natural to make sopping malls and restaurants 
so are art Galleries and etc


i think most Japanese undergrounds are parking lots, invisible shopping malls from ground and connecting skyscrapers paths, department stores and stations.
parking lots under Parks



as for skyssraper's erea, there are so many people under the ground with air-conditioned

Shinjuku underground





Underground Shopping Center That Never Ends


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## Hauler (May 30, 2012)

I love how the guy in the first video starts to sing :lol:


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## castermaild55 (Sep 8, 2005)

Underground shelter in Tokyo





travellers (e.g. commuters, students, etc.) who have difficulty returning home, esp. after a large-scale earthquake










shinjuku 4x





Yokohma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDHzb8aHt0Y
Ikebukuro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZisNbS6Bf9M


。


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

castermaild55 said:


> there are so many passengers at each stations.
> as for shinjuku, there are more than 3 millions /day.
> it is natural to make sopping malls and restaurants
> so are art Galleries and etc


I was just asking for someone to post plans or sections or any sort of designs of these Japanese underground spaces. 
I'm interested to see how they work and to understand their 'structure' 

Thank you


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## castermaild55 (Sep 8, 2005)




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