# Which cities would consist Top 10?



## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

It seems that we agree that Paris, NYC, Tokyo, and London Top 4 cities. Now let's talk about Top 10: 5th~10th. My candidates are:

East Asia: Seoul, Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, Osaka, Nagoya, Hongkong, Yokohama

South Asia: Singapore, Jakarta, Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur, Manila, Delhi, Mumbai 

Middle East: Riyadh, Cairo 

Europe: Madrid, Istanbul, Moscow, Berlin, Rome, Saint Petersburg, Athens 

Oceania: Sydney, Melbourne

North America: Los Angeles, Chicago, Toronto

Middle & South America: Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires


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## crawford (Dec 9, 2003)

HK doesn't belong with the other four. HK isn't a first tier business center and it has little standing as a cultural center.


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

crawford said:


> HK doesn't belong with the other four. HK isn't a first tier business center and it has little standing as a cultural center.


Alright, I edited it. Now, HK is one of the candidates from E. Asia.


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## Shift (May 9, 2005)

5. LA
6. Chicago
7. Sydney
8. Toronto
9. Shanghai
10. Bejing


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## Spotter (Feb 10, 2004)

Why Athens? with all respect


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Spotter said:


> Why Athens? with all respect


The list is just my own opinion. I don't want the discusssion to be limited by my list at all; you can add & remove cities to the list as much as you want.


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Shift said:


> 5. LA
> 6. Chicago
> 7. Sydney
> 8. Toronto
> ...


Wouldn't it be too much if HK is out while Toronto, Sydney, Shanghai, and Beijing are in. Could you support your idea?


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Did you not forget africa in your list?


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

virtual said:


> Did you not forget africa in your list?


You can add African cities if you want, but I don't know anything about African cities.


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## neilio (Jan 12, 2005)

Shift said:


> 5. LA
> 6. Chicago
> 7. Sydney
> 8. Toronto
> ...


haha very funny
sydney ahead of Toronto...thats funny to lol


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## EleGance (May 5, 2005)

i like these kinds of topics 

05. Hong Kong
06. Toronto
07. Sydney
08. Berlin
09. Rome
10. Madrid


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## mikep (Apr 7, 2005)

Hong Kong
Toronto
LA
Sydney
Shanghai
Seoul


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## JDRS (Feb 8, 2004)

5) Hong Kong
6) Toronto
7) Sydney
8) Singapore
9) Rome
10) Berlin


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## km-sh (Mar 3, 2004)

Now you should list the population of these cities


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

Toronto, Sydney, Rome Berlin Madrid are overrated.

IMO

1. Tokyo
2. NYC
3. London
4. Paris
5. HK
6. Chicago
7. Singapore
8. Toronto
9. Seoul
10. Frankfurt


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## Rockford (Jan 12, 2005)

by what criteria...impressiveness??

1.NYC
2.Tokyo
3.Seoul
4.Shanghai
5. Chicago
6. Hong Kong
7. London
9. Paris
10.LA


By power

1. New York
2. Washington
3. Tokyo
4. Beijing
5. Delhi
6. London
7. Rome
8. Paris
9. Geneva
10. Brasilia

and outside of Brasilia, Rome, and Delhi, been to them all


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Rockford said:


> by what criteria...


What criteria... hmmm... I would say, sizes in economy and population, buildings, city layout, landscape, culture, transportation, standard of living, telecommunication, and tourism etc. I don't think political power is something to be discussed here.


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## JDRS (Feb 8, 2004)

Rockford, how is Delhi more powerful than London?


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## Rockford (Jan 12, 2005)

It's the capital of a booming country of one bilion people.

Every day that passes it is getting more and more important. London has done an impressive job (better than any other in Europe IMO) of rolling with the changes. And London, luckily will benefit from India's rise more than most.


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## hudkina (Oct 28, 2003)

Isn't it true that India's middle class is now larger than the entire population of the U.S.?


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## GM (Feb 29, 2004)

Rockford said:


> By power
> 
> 1. New York
> 2. Washington
> ...


Yeah, Rome and Delhi are far more powerful than Paris... :sleepy: 
Comme on dit chez moi : "T'es sacrément grave..."


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Some Info on the Cities.

*Hongkong*

Official Name: Hongkong Special Administrative Region

Area: *1,101㎢*

Population: app. *6.8 mil*

*GDP/capita (nominal): 23,600 USD * (2003)

Districts: Central & Western, Eastern, Islands, Kowloon City, Kwai Tsing, North, Sai Kung, Sham Shui Po, Sha Tin, Southern, Tai Po, Tsuen Wan, Wan Chai, Wong Tai Sin, Yau Tsim Mong, Yuen Long

Metropolitan Area: None


*Seoul*

Official Name: Seoul Metropolitan City

Area: *605.52㎢*

Popluation: app. *10.3 mil*

*GRDP/head (nominal): app. 14,700 USD * (2003, Seoul only)

Wards: Dobong, Dongdaemun, Dongjak, Eunpyeong, Gangbuk, Gangdong, Gangnam, Gangseo, Geumcheon, Guro, Gwanak, Gwangjin, Jongno, Jung, Jungnang, Mapo, Nowon, Seocho, Seodaemun, Seongbuk, Seongdong, Songpa, Yangcheon, Yeongdeungpo, Yongsan

Metropolitan Area: forms the *Capital Metropolitan Area * with Incheon Metropolitan City and Gyeonggi Province

Area: *11,686 km2*

Population: *app. 22 mil*

Major Cities in CPA

(1) Incheon (entire city/urban area)--964.53 sq. km/389.15 sq. km, 2.54 mil/2.46 mil
(2) Suwon--121 sq. km, 1.03 mil
(3) Seongnam--142 sq. km, 0.95 mil
(4) Bucheon--53. 44 sq. km, 0.84 mil 
(5) Goyang--267. 29 sq. km, 0.80 mil
(6) Ansan-- 144.92 ㎢, 0.62 mil
(7) Anyang--58.52 sq. km, 0.60 mil
(8) Yongin--592 sq. km, 0.55 mil

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Damn it took like 40 min for 2 cities. :sleepy: 
Can any one do this for the rest of us? Post some info on your own cities...


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## Rockford (Jan 12, 2005)

GM said:


> Yeah, Rome and Delhi are far more powerful than Paris... :sleepy:
> Comme on dit chez moi : "T'es sacrément grave..."


there are a billion catholics and last time I checked, Italy is roughly the same size as France.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

by political power:
1 Washington
2 Moscow
3 Geneva
4 Bruxelles
5 Beijing
6 Dehli
7 London
8 Brasilia
9 Berlin
10 Rome

by economic power:
1 New York
2 Tokyo
3 London
4 Paris
5 Hong Kong
6 Sao Paulo
7 Osaka
8 Los Angeles
9 Shanghai
10 Milano or Frankfurt

by cultural/historical influence
1 Paris
2 London
3 Rome
4 Beijing
5 Athens
6 Mumbai
7 Los Angeles (sorry, but Hollywood is unfortunatly a strong influence in todays world)
8 Rio
9 New York
10 Jerusalem

It's only my personal perception!


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Kuesel said:


> It's only my personal perception!


Yeah, your personal perception. That's great. But I want us to talk more about how what a city looks (cityscape, landscape, nature, and layout), how big it is, how people live (quality of life), what they do for their living (economy, industry), what they can do in the city (cultural/sports infrastructure), transportation, architecture, telecommunication, etc, not what the city can influence on others or how powerful the city is.


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## tiger (Aug 21, 2004)

Kuesel said:


> by political power:
> 1 Washington
> 2 Moscow
> 3 Geneva
> ...


why doesmoscow have a more powerful influence than beijing?beijing should be ranged 2th.


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

More info on cities:

*Osaka City*

-the capital of Osaka Prefecture

-Population: *2.6 mil*/ Area: *221. 3 sq. km*

-*GRDP(nominal): 171.9 bil USD* (2001, only Osaka City)

-Wards: Abeno, Asahi, Chuo, Fukushima, Higashinari, Higashisumiyoshi, Higashiyodogawa, Hirano, Ikuno, Joto, Kita, Konohana, Minato, Miyakojima, Naniwa, Nishi, Nishinari, Nishiyodogawa, Suminoe, Sumiyoshi, Taisho, Tennoji, Tsurumi, Yodogawa

-Metro Area: *Keihanshin (Kyoto-Osaka-Kobe) Metropolitan Area*

KMA consists of Osaka Prefecture, and parts of Hyogo, Kobe, and Nara Prefectures, and includes Kobe, Hyogo Prefecture and Kyoto, Kyoto Prefecture.

Population: app. *16 mil*
Major cities: 
Kyoto (828 sq. km, 1.47 mil), Kobe (551.4 sq. km, 152 mil), 
Sakai (137 sq. km, 0.80 mil), Higashiosaka (61.81 sq. km, 0.51 mil), Nishinomiya (100.18 sq. km, 0.46 mil), Amagasaki (49.8 sq. km, 0.46 mil), Hirakata (65 sq. km, 0.40 mil), Toyonaka (36.38 sq. km, 0.39 mil), 
Nara (211.60 sq. km, 0.36 mil)


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

*Many* people are in agreement about: 
1-2 NY London
3 Tokyo
4 Paris
5 Hong Kong

My opinion:
6 Chicago
7-10 Frankfurt, LA, Toronto, Sydney


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

*Nagoya City*

-the Capital of Aichi Prefecture, Japan

-Area: *326.45 sq. km*

-Population: *2.19 mil*

-GRDP(nominal): *95 bil USD * (2001)

-Wards: Atsuta, Chikusa, Higashi, Kita, Meito, Midori, Minami, Minato, Mizuho, Moriyama, Naka, Nakagawa, Nakamura, Nishi, Showa, Tempaku

-Metro Area: unknown (Does any one know about Nagoya's metro area?)

*Yokohama City*

-the Capital of Kanagawa Prefecture, Japan

-Area: *434.98 sq. km*

-Population: *3.55 mil*

-GRDP (nominal): *102.7 bil USD * (2001)

-Wards: Aoba, Asahi, Hodogaya, Isogo, Izumi, Kanagawa, Kanazawa, Kohoku, Konan, Midori, Minami, Naka, Nishi, Sakae, Seya, Totsuka, Tsurumi, Tsuzuki

-Metro Area: Yokohama City is a part of Greater Tokyo Area (aka. Tokyo-Yokohama Metropolitan Area)


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

Sen said:


> Toronto, Sydney, Rome Berlin Madrid are overrated.
> 
> IMO
> 
> ...


This list seems to be the most reasonable.


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

*Shanghai * 

Official Name: Shanghai Municipality

Area: *6200 sq. km*

Population: *16.7 mil* 

*GRDP (nominal): 65 bil USD * (2002)

Metro Area: None


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

*Shenzhen*

Official Name: Shenzhen Municipality

Area: *2,020 sq. km*

Population: *4.05 mil*

*GRDP/capita (nominal): 16,430 USD* (2003)

Districts: Luohu, Futian, Nanshan, Yantian, Bao'an, Longgang


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## centralized pandemonium (Aug 16, 2004)

Hehehe my list

NA: NYC, Chicago, Toronto, SF.

Europe: London, Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid.

South Asia: Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai, Karachi.

East Asia: Tokyo, HK, Shanghai, Seoul.

SE Asia: Singapore, KL, Bangkok, Jakarta.

Africa: Dunno.

Rest: Sydney, Melbourne, Auckland.


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## ChinaboyUSA (May 10, 2005)

It is hard to define the global cities.
New York, London and Paris with Tokyo are always come to the front once we talk about global cities. (HK is right after)
But there are many factors decide that, a very important issue is the cities influence are based on their contries general international performance. 

I would rather count the Top 10 cities today as following (Comprehensive index)

1. Washington DC
2. New York City
3. Beijing
4. Tokyo
5. Paris
6. London
7. Moscow
8. Shanghai
9. Berlin
10. Hong Kong

It is tough,


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## Mansoor786 (Feb 15, 2005)

HAHHAH, I serously cant believe Islamabad isnt in any of your lists, firstly Karachi is better than India's best cities. and Islamabad is regarded by many as, better than Europe Infrastructure i.e. roads building poverty etc. and Islamabad is also regarded as being the 2nd best place for natural things! so i rank Islamabad top in ATLEAST Asia...ill post some pics...


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

While I am doing the research, except HK, Chinese cities are too small in economy scale and are no match to Japanese cities. Korean cities are also too small, except Seoul, to be mentioned. Osaka City's nominal GRDP (17 bil USD) is approximately the same as HK and Seoul. 

Yokohama and Nagoya have nominal GRDP around 10 bil USD, which is far larger than those of Shanghai and Shenzhen (both around 6~7 bil)--seemingly the largest two in China except HK, but far samller than those of Seoul, Osaka, and Hk. 

Beijing's GRDP, which will be posted later, is only about that of Ulsan city (3~4 bil USD), a Korean industrial city with the population of 1 mil. 

So, economy wise, I think Seoul, Hongkong, and Osaka are only eligible candidates to be in Top 10. This is desperate. If E. Asian cities are only this much developed, since it's hard to expect S. Asian and Arabic cities will do whole lot better than them, most of the Asian cities won't have any chance to be in Top 10.


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

kyenan said:


> Yeah, your personal perception. That's great. But I want us to talk more about how what a city looks (cityscape, landscape, nature, and layout), how big it is, how people live (quality of life), what they do for their living (economy, industry), what they can do in the city (cultural/sports infrastructure), transportation, architecture, telecommunication, etc, not what the city can influence on others or how powerful the city is.


Come on, that's too easy and only from a present point of view. A city is not so linear in time, function, size and area. I tried to combine at least all the factors that you mentioned in a 2000 years lifetime. Otherwise it would be just a list of the biggest cities, the ones with the highest HDI or GDP... That's why I put three lists - it depends on the aspects you are looking at. From an architecural point of view on top would be clear Hong Kong, New York, Tokyo and maybe Sao Paulo. But also only from a point of view of the last 50-70 years. But okay, I got the question wrong as it seems


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

My list of Top 10, which is subject to change according to furture research is:

1~4: Tokyo, NYC, London, and Paris

5. Hongkong

6. Osaka

7. Los Angeles

8. Chicago

9. Seoul

10. Madrid (?)


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Kuesel said:


> Come on, that's too easy and only from a present point of view. A city is not so linear in time, function, size and area. I tried to combine at least all the factors that you mentioned in a 2000 years lifetime. Otherwise it would be just a list of the biggest cities, the ones with the highest HDI or GDP... That's why I put three lists - it depends on the aspects you are looking at. From an architecural point of view on top would be clear Hong Kong, New York, Tokyo and maybe Sao Paulo. But also only from a point of view of the last 50-70 years. But okay, I got the question wrong as it seems


I mean, let's just talk about the city herself, not how she is perceived by others (or how she influences others). If certain two cities are at very similar levels for everything else, you may use international influence for final determination, but influence shouldn't be major focus of this discussion, I think.


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## Mansoor786 (Feb 15, 2005)

Islamabad:...


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

ChinaboyUSA said:


> A thing I want to tell you is going to China and see it by your own eyes.


Thank you. I agree. China is definitely one of the top countries on my "To visit list." :yes:


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

in short you believe BA is superior to HK?


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

If I had to choose to live between HK and BA, easy choice: HK. However, I would choose to live in San Diego ahead of Hong Kong. This does not make San Diego a more important city.


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## ChinaboyUSA (May 10, 2005)

DonQui said:


> Thank you. I agree. China is definitely one of the top countries on my "To visit list." :yes:


Welcome, you will be shocked I bet.
I have friends here in the States who are Latin American, they all love China a lot.


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

It is a completely subjective choice on my part. The fact that we at least moderately agree on 8 out of the 10 cities on my list illustrates that we have some degree of agreement on which cities would consist the Top 10.


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

Skyscrapers dont make a city, but you have also to realize that beautiful buidlings dont make a city either. although HK does not have much economic output (or it does?), but it served as a gateway and bridge to the most important market today- China. The city itself is an important fiancial centre. All most all of world's banks are here. It's GDP per capita is one of the highest in the world. Not to mention its amazing culture, movie industry that is unrivaled in Asia. Many people get the misconception that all Chinese can do kung fu from HK movies. and aboveall this is skyscrapercity and we all love skyscrapers.


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## carry_a_torch (Apr 30, 2005)

DonQui said:


> If I had to choose to live between HK and BA, easy choice: HK. However, I would choose to live in San Diego ahead of Hong Kong. This does not make San Diego a more important city.


it's just your choice,can it explain anything? none


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

DonQui said:


> again bud, glittery skyscrapers do not make a city. Do not be so quick to poopoo Buenos Aires. Argentina's annual economic output is over half a trilliion dollars. Buenos Aires houses about a third of the country's population (and undoubtedly is richer on average than the rest of Argentina). So, It probably has an economy along the size of about $150-200 billion. For comparison sake, the economy of NYC (just the city itself), its economy is about $500 billion. While Argentina may not have as many interested suitors as other parts of the developing world, it is still the capital of one of the top 25 economies in the world. It is the richest large country in Latin America, a market that is often overlooked.


What are you talking about? Argentina a trillion member? :eek2 Your calculation is just wrong from the beginning.


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

ChinaboyUSA said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I fully recommend this website for your reference about Shanghai:
> 
> ...


What should I do with these essay-like articles? :sleepy: You want me to be impressed by them? Hey, every big city has what Shanghai has. I want the numbers. How many galleries/museums do you have? How many books are in your city library? What's the area of green? etc...etc..

But anyway, it's fine to say Shanghai is in Top 10. I have decided 9 cities in Top 10, but I couldn't decide the last one. Shanghai may get it.


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## EleGance (May 5, 2005)

by logic! Top 20

01. New York
02. Tokyo
03. London
04. Paris
05. Hong Kong
06. Toronto
07. Sydney
08. Berlin
09. Rome
10. Madrid
11. Chicago
12. Frankfurt
13. Los Angeles
14. Osaka
15. Seoul
16. Amsterdam
17. Milan
18. Geneva
19. Singapore
20. Shanghai


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## ChinaboyUSA (May 10, 2005)

kyenan said:


> What should I do with these essay-like articles? :sleepy: You want me to be impressed by them? Hey, every big city has what Shanghai has. I want the numbers. How many galleries/museums do you have? How many books are in your city library? What's the area of green? etc...etc..
> 
> But anyway, it's fine to say Shanghai is in Top 10. I have decided 9 cities in Top 10, but I couldn't decide the last one. Shanghai may get it.


There are plenty of information on Shanghai's Statistics online, so you can find out the details by yourself.

Here I find an article about Shanghai on Forbes, Please be notified that the date of composition was 2002, Shanghai/China is developing so fast. One thing about China is the big difference between the Urban area and the country, if Shanghai will continue to develop as a more important city in the world, the rural areas development in China may hinders that.

It is good that the government is taking solid measures on the backward rural areas.

For a lot of people in China, especially the young people, Shanghai is a legend and symbol of China's future..not only there, I live in New York City, my friends here from different nations are all looking at Shanghai as a sign of the 21st Century. So whether Shanghai is one of the Top 10 Cities in the world or not, it must be interesting that people talk about Shanghai on the Subway ride in New York City.

I love these two great cities.

[I]_citation:http://www.forbes.com/global/2002/0527/066_print.html_Title: *Shanghai Buzz*[/I]
'The city has emerged in the past ten years as the gateway to the most vibrant large economy in the world. This is why we consider it the most promising place for an entrepreneur. But investors better mind the potholes.
The American entrepreneur Cortney Smith arrived in Shanghai in 1996 to establish a bungee-jumping business. Chinese thrill-seekers latched on to it, and Bungee International now operates (or has sold the rights to operate) 16 Chinese sites for bungee-jumping and other extreme sports. He expects to add ten more sites this year, and revenue is predicted to total $1.6 million in 2002, up 33% from last year. 

Smith believes that he chose a good place to set up shop. "People can feel a buzz in Shanghai," he says. "It's part of the sixth sense of entrepreneurs." But sometimes there's too much adrenalin. Like bungee-jumping, business in Shanghai can be exciting, but it certainly isn't for the faint of heart. 

This is not the first time that Shanghai is emerging as a top business center. A century and a half ago, the opening of China to international trade transformed the city into a capital of capital. Today Shanghai's economy is growing even faster than China as a whole, and foreign investment continues to pour in. In the past ten years, the city absorbed $48 billion of foreign capital, nearly matching the amount nearby Taiwan has taken in the past five decades ($50 billion) and making it a top destination for foreign investment in China. 

And foreigners alone aren't the only ones who are rejuvenating Shanghai. Three of the five richest business families on FORBES GLOBAL's 2001 China Rich List have their headquarters in Shanghai, including members of the Liu clan, which came out on top. Shanghai's position at the mouth of the Yangtze River enables entrepreneurs to reach a market of 100 million, 13.2 milion in the city itself, and provides them with a central vantage point from which to penetrate the rest of China. 

Even though Shanghai is in the vanguard of the economy, it can't isolate itself from the rest of China. The nation ranks 25 out of 27 countries covered in our survey of tax misery this year. China stands far behind Hong Kong and Singapore in surveys of competitiveness; it's hampered by a murky legal system and inadequate protection of intellectual property. Yet Shanghai is fast supplanting Hong Kong as the gateway to China. Despite Hong Kong's adherence to British common law and its superb infrastructure, it is losing its preeminence for investors and entrepreneurs wanting to do business in China. 

Shanghai has had to make up the ground that was lost in the early decades of communism. Successful entrepreneurs fled, and locals were taught to be ashamed of the city's capitalist past. After 1949, people were usually not allowed to move to Shanghai from other parts of China, and most of the profits from city businesses were sent to the government in Beijing. 

Things began to improve a decade ago. In the 1980s, southern China was the area that benefited from economic reforms. Then China began to unshackle Shanghai. It wouldn't have happened as fast without help from top politicians in Beijing--the former mayors of Shanghai, Jiang Zemin and Zhu Rongji (today China's president and premier). 

Since 1990, Shanghai has been transformed. Blocks of prewar dwellings have been leveled and replaced with modern business towers and residential buildings; lavish spending has created a good road network. Foreigners and overseas Chinese have played a role in the renewal. Chinese families that fled communism have returned, joined by Taiwanese fleeing high costs at home and multinationals looking for cheap labor. Financial incentives have turned the city into the country's hub for foreign banks. 

Successful locals as well as top foreign executives once again dwell in elite neighborhoods, now made up of stand-alone homes that carry price tags in excess of $1 million. Major city streets are lined with restaurants and bars crowded with Chinese and foreigners alike. As prosperity has spread through central China, Shanghai has become a magnet for shops and is home to three of the country's five biggest retailers. 

Multinationals that are expanding in Shanghai include Microsoft, which, despite rampant software piracy in China, operates a global support center there; it's tucked away behind a shopping district in the middle of the city. Technical questions from customers around the world arrive over the internet to the 400-person office. The staff figures out what the problems are and sends back replies (mostly prewritten). 

"Shanghai has a great talent pool, in part because it's a city where young people want to live," says Jun Tang, the president of Microsoft China. In April the U.S. company announced a $4 million 50-50 joint venture with the government-owned Shanghai Alliance Investment to sell software. Other active Western companies include Intel, Alcatel and General Motors. Many big foreign companies say that the government has helped ease their way. 

But small businesses face a tougher time. "It's not really the little guy's place yet," says Mitchell Dudek, the partner in charge at the law firm Jones, Day, Reavis & Pogue in Shanghai, which advises large foreign companies on their China strategies. He does say that things are changing for the better. "It will happen over time." 

The challenges for entrepreneurs are many. Despite the buzz, Shanghai is still dominated by the public sector, and the government is a majority owner of its biggest local companies. About half of its gross domestic product in 2000 came from the government, compared with 40% for the country as a whole. State-owned banks rule the financial roost in Shanghai, too. And it's sometimes hard for people from other parts of China to move there. "Shanghai before 1949 was a place where people came from all over China and the world to start businesses, and that helped make it great," says Pamela Yatsko, author of a book on the city. "It needs to be a melting pot again, as New York is today." 

There are financial and administrative hurdles, too. For foreigners, it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to open a wholly owned business. Businesspeople complain about the difficulty in obtaining trading licenses and the high fees paid to government-sanctioned hiring agencies and middlemen. And although Shanghai is the city in China that is the most friendly to foreigners, it isn't like Hong Kong or Singapore, where non-Chinese speakers can just show up and get things done. Traffic signs are in English, but most of the successful foreigners in the city speak Mandarin Chinese fluently. Many also have Chinese spouses to help them circumvent restrictions faced by foreigners. 

Entrepreneurs are finding opportunities. In 2000, Jeff Bernstein, formerly a consultant at McKinsey, set up a logistics company in a special trade zone and provided warehousing and distribution services to companies that focus on finding customers and selling. Bernstein's company had less than $5 million in revenue last year, and it is likely to double in 2002, encouraging him to look for venture capital. A cofounder of an organization for young entrepreneurs in Shanghai, he says that China should do more to ease the way for new businesses. "That China is such a hotbed of entrepreneurialism is in spite of the government's policies," he says. 

Trade is also enabling Jeff Premer, a 32-year-old American, to realize his ambitions. He moved to Asia ten years ago and achieved success in Taiwan by selling locally made nuts and bolts. "It was a good business, and Taiwan had a lock on it," says Premer, who speaks Mandarin fluently. 

In November he moved to China, where his company, Diversitech Holdings, has found lower-cost suppliers in China; he expects its outsourcing business there to total $15 million, supplying tool kits and skateboard parts to such U.S. stores as Target and the Sports Authority. This is triple his revenue in Taiwan. He works through a representative office in Shanghai and channels sales through a trading company in Hong Kong. 

Real estate is another source of wealth in Shanghai. Among the city's most successful private entrepreneurs is Hui Wingmau; in our China Rich List last year we estimated his wealth at $723 million. Hui entered the property development business in Fujian province in 1989; he focused on Beijing in the early 1990s before turning to Shanghai at the end of the decade. "People go to Shanghai for business and to Beijing for politics," he says. 

Hui puts his money where his optimism is. Today the family has five projects in Shanghai worth well over $1 billion in total. Among the most notable: the Shanghai Riviera, seven buildings in the city's Pudong district that vary in size from 47 stories to 60. He's also building a hotel and commercial complex just north of the historic Bund area. 

Foreigners are also becoming involved in Shanghai's property market. Sam Crispin, a Briton who is managing director of FPDSavills' office in the city, will leave the company in June to open his own property consultancy with a local partner. He arrived in Shanghai in 1994 and says that it is crucial to build up relationships with locals before starting a business. "I figured you could lose money on your own for eight years [by starting a business right away] or learn the ropes and then start out on your own," he says. A new business needs a minimum start-up capital of $140,000, but this is less than half of what it was a few years ago, says Crispin: "The authorities now understand the benefit of small companies." 

More young Shanghainese who left to look for better jobs abroad are returning home in increasing numbers to start businesses. Jun Wu, 30, a former engineer with Sendit in Stockholm and with Microsoft, returned to Shanghai in 1999 to help form Intrinsic Technology, a wireless telecommunications software company that had revenue of $3 million last year. Investors today include Fidelity Investments and Taiwan's Acer. 

"Shanghai will definitely emerge as a technology center in Asia," says Wu. "There are already more entrepreneurs, but we lack a world-class [high-tech] company for now. As soon as that happens, things will be seen differently." 

Encouraged by the prospect of financial reform, financial consultants have been arriving in large numbers. Stephen Harner, 52, formerly a vice president at Citibank in Japan and Taiwan and a former chief representative for Deutsche Bank in Shanghai, left the German company in 1999 to focus on his own financial industry and investment advisory firm. It wasn't easy getting started. The initial capital requirement was $350,000, and it seemed that the office could be located only in Pudong. 

It took him a few months to find a cheaper location while adhering to the regulations that stipulate where foreign-owned consultancies can be established. Harner, a fluent speaker of Mandarin, resides in Shanghai but does business through his Jiangsu entity. 

Business has improved recently, he says, and he's receiving work from the International Finance Corp., an affiliate of the World Bank, providing management advice to Chinese banks. He has also worked with foreign banks and insurers that are looking for ways to crack the China market. "Shanghai has been a good place to be because it is where foreign financial service companies are planning expansion." 

Shanghai's progress could be knocked off course by China's secretive domestic politics. The departure of the popular mayor Xu Kuandi for murky reasons in December is an example. China's volatile nationalism can cause problems for foreign companies. Labor unrest is growing. 

But Shanghai is on the right track. Two forces will help entrepreneurs. If China's economy slows down, this may force the city to improve the investment climate by reducing red tape. China's being a member of the wto is likely to improve the way private domestic companies are treated. "The reforms have been working so far in starting to move people out of the state companies and toward private ones [in Shanghai]," says Wong Siu-lun, head of the Center of Asia Studies at Hong Kong University. 

What's needed, he says, is for the government to reduce institutional barriers, such as access to capital. "The potential is there [for private companies to play a much bigger role]," Wong says. If this happens, Shanghai will become even more important for China and the world.'


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

kyenan said:


> What are you talking about? Argentina a trillion member? :eek2 Your calculation is just wrong from the beginning.


half a trillion means that it is not a trillion member. the economy is about $500 billion.


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## shibuya_suki (Apr 24, 2005)

*i can say almost all people in ssc fully underestimate shanghai*
they even said dubai better than shanghai,they all look at skyscraper only

they always said skyscraper doesnt mean great city,when somebody talk about hongkong,but when compare shanghai and hongkong,they still said shanghai is worse than hk very much,shanghai lack of impressive skyscraper and skyline, so they judge its a bad city,but nobody look at its potential
it should in top 10 city soon,its economic influence in the world is incredible after china join WTO
just look at times magazine,its new capital of the world


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

OK. I admit that Buenos Aires has large population and economy. I found the city has the population of about 2.8 mil and metro pop about 12 mil. That's a huge number. But I don't think that's enough to be ranked higher than L.A and Chicago. Look at the cities like Seoul, Osaka, Hongkong, and L.A. Only for city proper, their economy size is about that of Buenos Aires Metropolitan Area.


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## PotatoGuy (May 10, 2005)

My List: 

1:New York
2:London
3:Tokyo
4:Los Angeles
5aris
6:Hong Kong
7:Chicago
8:Toronto
9:Shanghai
10:Sydney


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

PotatoGuy said:


> My List:
> 
> 1:New York
> 2:London
> ...


I don't really see why Toronto and Sydney are often mentioned as in-Top 10 cities. I would rather put Miland in it. 

Yes, Milan!!!

Would the list be better with Milan in it?

1. New York City
2. London
3. Tokyo
4. Los Angeles
5. Paris
6. Hongkong
7. Seoul
8. Osaka
9. Milan
10. Chicago

What do you think?


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## Wallbanger (Mar 8, 2005)

Shift said:


> why should toronto be ahead of sydney?


Because its larger, more important and its the Largest city in a Larger, more important Country.


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## Skybean (Jun 16, 2004)

Wallbanger said:


> Because its larger, more important and its the Largest city in a Larger, more important Country.


--Toronto Stock Exchange is the Third Largest in North America
Ranked after NYSE and NASDAQ, the TSX Group is the third largest stock market in North America and the* eighth largest in the world *by market capitalization. With $1.387 trillion in domestic capitalization* and a total market capitalization of $1.547 trillion in equity exchanges, the TSX group provides the international financial community with access to Canada’s equity capital market.
http://www.tse.com/ 

--Financial centre of Canada, 4th largest in North America, employing 176,000 in financial sector

--Home to 90 per cent of Canada's foreign banks, and its top accounting and mutual fund companies, and 80 per cent of Canada's largest R&D, law, advertising and high-tech firms

--More than 76,000 businesses generate a gross domestic product of $98 billion and employ over 1.3 million people

_Sources: Toronto Board of Trade "Profile of Toronto and the Greater Toronto Area, 1998/99: Toronto business and market guide"._

--Toronto is recognized as the third-largest theatre centre in the English-speaking world, after New York and London with over 90 venues in the GTA.


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## kyenan (Mar 22, 2003)

Skybean said:


> --Toronto Stock Exchange is the Third Largest in North America...eighth largest in the world by market capitalization. With...a total market capitalization of $1.547 trillion in equity exchanges.
> 
> --Toronto is recognized as the third-largest theatre centre in the English-speaking world, after New York and London with over 90 venues in the GTA.


This is good supporting evidence that Toronto has right to be in Top 10.



Skybean said:


> --More than 76,000 businesses generate a gross domestic product of $98 billion and employ over 1.3 million people


But this is not.


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## Skybean (Jun 16, 2004)

^I see you are now the person who makes the ultimate decision.
:| 

Keep in mind those numbers are for 1998. GDP fluctuates yearly.


*2001 *
The Greater Toronto Area (GTA) is one of North America's fastest-growing regions. As an economic area, the GTA consists of 25 municipalities and four regions in a total area of over 7,000 square kilometers with a population of 5 million. With a work force of approximately 2.9 million people, more than 100,000 companies and a *US $109 billion gross domestic product*, the GTA is Canada's undisputed business and manufacturing capital.


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