# Which next developing country will become developed?



## VECTROTALENZIS

Which are the next developing countries to become a member of the "Developed countries club" within 10 years?

Here are recent countries that have taken the step and the year it did it:

Cyprus (2001)
Slovenia (2007)
Malta (2008)
Czech Republic (2009)
Slovakia (2009)
Estonia (2011)


*What do you think?*

I think of maybe these countries:

*Europe*

Poland
Lithuania
Latvia
Croatia
Hungary
Romania

*Asia*

Malaysia

*South America*

Chile
Argentina
Uruguay


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## krnboy1009

My money is on Malaysia. Well educated helps a lot.


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## smuthny

:nuts:

you have some weird/old data bro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country


Poland and Hungary are already in the club from a while..


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## diablo234

I would include Mexico as well. Despite issues regarding corruption/crime Mexico is already Latin America's most wealthiest country and they have a rapidly expanding economy as well. Plus their government has been instrumental in expanding the middle class there and has instituted major reforms regarding housing, healthcare, etc.


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## zermatt

Regarding Latin America I believe that only Chile, Argentina and Uruguay have the potential to become a developed country next decade. Those are countries with high HDI, GDP at PPP per capita around 18k dollars (2011), good educational system and "acceptable" income inequality That would be the first cohort. The second cohort is Brazil and Mexico. They are the biggest and more diverse economies in Latin America. Their GDP at PPP per capita are around 15k, not that far away from the first group. However, although their educational system is improving fast, it will take a generation to reach a good level. Besides, their infrastructure need bulky investments. 

Country and time frame to become developed:

1) Chile 2018 to 2023
2) Uruguay 2020 to 2025
3) Argentina 2022 to 2027

4) Brazil 2035 to 2040
5) Mexico 2035 to 2040

Other Latin American countries are harder to make any prediction due to political uncertainties. Two exceptions would be Costa Rica and Panama.


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## Jonesy55

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Which are the next developing countries to become a member of the "Developed countries club" within 10 years?
> 
> Here are recent countries that have taken the step and the year it did it:
> 
> Cyprus (2001)
> Slovenia (2007)
> Malta (2008)
> Czech Republic (2009)
> Slovakia (2009)
> Estonia (2011)


Where does that information come from? What criteria have to be fulfilled to join this club?


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## tita01

Philippines will be a developed country by 2020-2040



walang kokontra mga bangk..


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## lafreak84

Here's your developed country club by IMF.


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## aaabbbccc

Morocco will I believe between 2050 and 2080


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## Jonesy55

Trinidad & Tobago?


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## Jonesy55

lafreak84 said:


> Here's your developed country club by IMF.


No UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman?


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## Slagathor

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Which are the next developing countries to become a member of the "Developed countries club" within 10 years?


Within ten years: none. Unless by some stroke of genius or blind luck the Eurozone fixes its problems in a decisive manner.

Within twenty years: 

*Argentina* and *Chile* in Latin America. Mexico comes close but can't get a hold on the drug war which will put the handbrake on its progress.

Depending on the fall-out of the Euro crisis, *Poland*, *Latvia* and *Lithuania* stand a good chance, as well as *Croatia* and *Hungary* although I don't have a lot of faith in the political classes that currently occupy Budapest.

That's pretty much it. In between rising prices for fossil fuels and raw materials, as well as increasing instability in large swaths of the Muslim world, I'm not optimistic for the near future.


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## realitybites-u

malaysia will be developed country in less than 10 years i believe with the economic transformation is on the way.


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## aaabbbccc

Anyone in here think that the entire globe could become developed in our lifetime ? Is that a possibility ? thoughts ?


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## Jonesy55

aaabbbccc said:


> Anyone in here think that the entire globe could become developed in our lifetime ? Is that a possibility ? thoughts ?


Then the standard of what it is to be 'developed' will be changed. If everywhere and everybody is 'developed' the term no longer means anything.


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## Yuri S Andrade

diablo234 said:


> I would include Mexico as well. Despite issues regarding corruption/crime Mexico is already Latin America's most wealthiest country and they have a rapidly expanding economy as well. Plus their government has been instrumental in expanding the middle class there and has instituted major reforms regarding housing, healthcare, etc.


Mexico is not the wealthiest Latin American country and has currently one of the slowest economic growth of the region. GDP per capita 2010:

Uruguay --- US$ 11.998,00
Chile --- US$ 11.827,00
Brazil --- US$ 10.816,00
Venezuela --- US$ 10.049,00
Mexico --- US$ 9.522,00
Argentina --- --- US$ 9.131,00

By the way, what would be "developed"? A GDP per capita *over US$ 15.000,00 or US$ 20.000,00* combined with an *HDI over 0.800*? In that case, Portugal would be out of the list. Their GDP per capita is OK (US$ 21.000,00), but the HDI is 0.795. Catar, Bahrain and UAE would be in.


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## smuthny

lafreak84 said:


> Here's your developed country club by IMF.


HDI 2010:


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## sebvill

smuthny said:


> :nuts:
> 
> you have some weird/old data bro
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country
> 
> 
> Poland and Hungary are already in the club from a while..


If Poland and Hungary can be called developed, then is the same for Argentina and Chile.

By the way, this is how the Latin American countries were doing in the last HDI, this years will be published in November.

HDI (Human Development Index) 2010

High

45 Chile
46 Argentina
52 Uruguay

56 Panama
58 Mexico
64 Costa Rica
65 Peru

75 Brasil
77 Venezuela
79 Ecuador
81 Colombia

Medium

90 Dominican Republic
92 El Salvador
98 Bolivia
99 Paraguay

109 Honduras
118 Nicaragua
119 Guatemala


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## PadArch

have to say its hard to see what this list measures


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## @b1

In my opinion, Indonesia will become developed between 2030 to 2040

Also for Philippines and Vietnam in SE Asia


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## sebvill

Indonesia has still a loooong way to go.


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## isakres

zermatt said:


> Regarding Latin America I believe that only Chile, Argentina and Uruguay have the potential to become a developed country next decade. Those are countries with high HDI, GDP at PPP per capita around 18k dollars (2011), good educational system and "acceptable" income inequality That would be the first cohort. The second cohort is Brazil and Mexico. They are the biggest and more diverse economies in Latin America. Their GDP at PPP per capita are around 15k, not that far away from the first group. However, although their educational system is improving fast, it will take a generation to reach a good level. Besides, their infrastructure need bulky investments.
> 
> Country and time frame to become developed:
> 
> 1) Chile 2018 to 2023
> 2) Uruguay 2020 to 2025
> 3) Argentina 2022 to 2027
> 
> 4) Brazil 2035 to 2040
> 5) Mexico 2035 to 2040
> 
> Other Latin American countries are harder to make any prediction due to political uncertainties. Two exceptions would be Costa Rica and Panama.



The World Bank expect Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Mexico and Panama to reach the USD$20,000 mark (PIB Per Capita PPP) by 2020. 

All of them have also the highest HDI scores in Latinamerica comparable with some Eastern European Countries. 

Chile is expected to be the first LatinAmerican Country to reach development (some sources say it would be as soon as 2015), but Argentina is accelerating fast and perhaps will surpass Chile in the run for development (yet there is uncertain of sustainable growth for the US media at least).




Yuri S Andrade said:


> Mexico is not the wealthiest Latin American country and has currently one of the slowest economic growth of the region. GDP per capita 2010:
> 
> Uruguay --- US$ 11.998,00
> Chile --- US$ 11.827,00
> Brazil --- US$ 10.816,00
> Venezuela --- US$ 10.049,00
> Mexico --- US$ 9.522,00
> Argentina --- --- US$ 9.131,00
> 
> By the way, what would be "developed"? A GDP per capita *over US$ 15.000,00 or US$ 20.000,00* combined with an *HDI over 0.800*? In that case, Portugal would be out of the list. Their GDP per capita is OK (US$ 21.000,00), but the HDI is 0.795. Catar, Bahrain and UAE would be in.


I guess he was talking about GDP Per Capita PPP. Mexico was the wealthiest Latinamerican country before the Crisis and its crackdown of -6% in 2009.

And to be fair Mexico is growing as fast as Brazil in 2011 and is expected to do so in 2012, perhaps a bit faster in 2011.

Cheers.


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## isakres

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Which are the next developing countries to become a member of the "Developed countries club" within 10 years?
> 
> Here are recent countries that have taken the step and the year it did it:
> 
> Cyprus (2001)
> Slovenia (2007)
> Malta (2008)
> Czech Republic (2009)
> Slovakia (2009)
> Estonia (2011)
> 
> 
> *What do you think?*
> 
> I think of maybe these countries:
> 
> *Europe*
> 
> Poland
> Lithuania
> Latvia
> Croatia
> Hungary
> Romania
> 
> *Asia*
> 
> Malaysia
> 
> *South America*
> 
> Chile
> Argentina
> Uruguay




My bets are something like this and include some additional countries before Romania.

1.- Hungary
2.- Poland
3.- Lithuania
4.- Croatia
5.- Chile / Latvia
6.- Argentina / Uruguay
7.- Malaysia
8.- Mexico / Brazil / Panama
9.- Turkey / Bulgaria / Romania

IMO.

*Consider Gulf Countries as developed according to PIB Per Capita and HDI.
*Chile and Argentina could surpass a couple of Eastern European Countries since their economic growth is way ahead of them and the uncertainity and low economic performance across the Euro persists.


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## RioARCHTQTO

In Southeast Asia, *Malaysia* has a higher possibility to become a developed country as early as 2020, then followed by Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam, by as early as 2030..

current status:

*(Per Capita)*
Malaysia: $15,300
Thailand: $9,100
Indonesia: $4,300
Philippines: $3,700
Vietnam: $3,000

*(HDI)*
Malaysia: 0.744 (high)
Thailand: 0.654 (medium)
Philippines: 0.638 (medium)
Indonesia: 0.600 (medium)
Vietnam: 0.572 (medium)


These countries usually have an annual GDP Growth Rate of

Lower: 3 to 4% - (happens when there is a crisis)
Average: 5%
Higher: 6 to 7% - (their usual annual rate, Philippine's 2010 was 7.6%)


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## smuthny

sebvill said:


> If Poland and Hungary can be called developed, then is the same for Argentina and Chile.
> 
> By the way, this is how the Latin American countries were doing in the last HDI, this years will be published in November.
> 
> HDI (Human Development Index) 2010
> 
> High
> 
> 45 Chile
> 46 Argentina
> 52 Uruguay
> 
> 56 Panama
> 58 Mexico
> 64 Costa Rica
> 65 Peru
> 
> 75 Brasil
> 77 Venezuela
> 79 Ecuador
> 81 Colombia
> 
> Medium
> 
> 90 Dominican Republic
> 92 El Salvador
> 98 Bolivia
> 99 Paraguay
> 
> 109 Honduras
> 118 Nicaragua
> 119 Guatemala


*High* on this HDI 2010 list means *Developing country*

*Very High* = *Developed country*

Once again, see the map, legend and whole list. so..according to this Argentina and Chile are still developing.


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## isakres

sebvill said:


> Indonesia has still a loooong way to go.


Thats true, I thought Indonesia was a bit wealthier but Perú has already twice the PIB per Capita of Indonesia (PPP), has a higher HDI and actually is growing faster so.....my logic say we should be talking about Perú first if we consider Indonesia in the next developing countries group.


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## Yuri S Andrade

isakres said:


> I guess he was talking about GDP Per Capita PPP. Mexico was the wealthiest Latinamerican country before the Crisis and its crackdown of -6% in 2009.
> 
> And to be fair Mexico is growing as fast as Brazil in 2011 and is expected to do so in 2012, perhaps a bit faster in 2011.
> 
> Cheers.


Ok, but the target should be Uruguay, Argentina and Chile, not Brazil. And like you said, it was _before_ the crisis. Clearly the 3 South American countries are far ahead Mexico and as they show much stronger economic growth and much smaller social problems, they will reach the "developed" status way before.


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## isakres

^^Mmhhh ok, the first developed Latin country will be a Conosureño without a doubt.

My non risk bet would be Chile.
My risky bet would be Argentina.


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## Jonesy55

List of countries between $10,000 and $25,000 GDP/capita PPP, presumably over this are all considered developed, under have some way to go, IMF figures 2010

35 Oman 25,492
36 Czech Republic 24,950
37 Malta 24,833
38 Seychelles 23,308
39 Portugal 23,262
40 Barbados 22,776
41 Saudi Arabia 22,607
42 Slovakia 22,195
43 Antigua and Barbuda 21,460
44 Trinidad and Tobago 19,743
45 Poland 18,981 
46 Hungary 18,841
47 Estonia 18,527
48 Equatorial Guinea 18,209
49 Croatia 17,819 
50 Lithuania 17,235
51 Saint Kitts and Nevis 16,192
52 Argentina 15,901
53 Russia 15,612
54 Lebanon 15,239
55 Botswana 15,180
56 Gabon 15,072
57 Chile 15,040
58 Malaysia 14,744 
59 Latvia 14,504 
60 Mexico 14,406
61 Uruguay 14,339
62 Mauritius 14,194
63 Belarus 13,874 
64 Libya 13,846
65 Turkey 13,577
66 Dominica 13,258 
67 Grenada 13,110
68 Bulgaria 12,934
69 Panama 12,615
70 Saint Lucia 12,507
71 Venezuela 12,048
72 Kazakhstan 12,015
73 Romania 11,895
74 Iran 11,883
75 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 11,542
76 Brazil 11,273
77 Costa Rica 11,043
--World 10,922
78 Montenegro 10,775
79 South Africa 10,518
80 Serbia 10,252
81 Azerbaijan 10,063


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## isakres

isakres said:


> ^^Mmhhh ok, the first developed Latin country will be a Conosureño without a doubt.
> 
> My non risk bet would be Chile.
> My risky bet would be Argentina.


Changed my mind, after seeing Jonessy´s list my bet for the first Latin Country to be developed is:

1.- Trinidad and Tobago.


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## ManRegio

isakres said:


> Changed my mind, after seeing Jonessy´s list my bet for the first Latin Country to be developed is:
> 
> 1.- Trinidad and Tobago.


T&T is not a Latin country, they speak English, and I guess they belong to the Commonwealth. 

Regards.


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## isakres

^^
I know.... but they like Carnivals, dance Limbo & Calypso and "perrean" with Reggeton under the pam trees. Maybe those are the reasons why they consider T&T and Belize as Latinamerica? :dunno:

http://www.latinamericamonitor.com/file/8187/trinidad--tobago.html


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## ManRegio

isakres said:


> ^^
> I know.... but they like Carnivals, dance Limbo & Calypso and "perrean" with Reggeton under the pam trees. Maybe those are the reasons why they consider T&T and Belize as Latinamerica? :dunno:
> 
> http://www.latinamericamonitor.com/file/8187/trinidad--tobago.html


I don't and will never do such things, and I am still Latin American because I speak Castilian. 

T&T speak English, belong to Commonwealth and they like cricket. They are clearly Caribbean. 

Regards.


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## PaulBP

Chile, probably in few years. then argentina. but argentina depends so much in the brazilian growth which is going slower now. there are some eastern european countries ahead of chile right now, but they are growing slower. the development status isnt just gdp but also some different things like education level, murder rate, develompent index.


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## kwong

Except for few countries like Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina, other Latin American countries have no future... don't dream too much about being a developed country...

Just look at their export. They depend so much on raw commodities. They are not capable to create their own industries. They will be forever stuck as middle income countries...

Even Mexico is nothing without the US, and Brazil still has to prove that they can build their own industry effectively since until today their exports are dominated by raw materials and commodities...

My prediction is of course East European countries like Poland and Hungary. Then some Asian countries (but required more than 10 years), then African countries like South Africa...


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## Kensingtonian

These are all of the countries that will be developed within 10 years:



lafreak84 said:


> Here's your developed country club by IMF.


Within 30 years here are my predictions:

L.A: 1)Uruguay 2)Argentina 3)Chile 4)Costa Rica

Europe: 1)Hungary 2)Poland

Africa: 1)South Africa

Asia: 1)Malaysia 2)Turkey


Within 40 - 50 years:

L.A: 1)Mexico 2)Brazil

Europe: some more Eastern European countries, don't know which

Africa: 1)Tunisia? depending on how things work out with democracy

Asia: 1)Russia 2)China 3)India


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## Kensingtonian

Jonesy55 said:


> No UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman?


It takes more than money to be a developed country. 

Minimum requirements:

1)Majority of population is middle class
2)Well functioning democracy
3)Women and men have equal rights


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## isakres

^^ 
So there is no chance for a country to reach development without a "well functioning democracy"? A strong Middle Class and Equal Rights between Men and Women are indeed irreplaceable requirements, im just not sure about democracy....

Anyway, here are the Developing Countries about to reach developed status according to the HDI standards.

(As mentioned before, Poland and Hungary are already considered developed as well as some Gulf Countries in the HDI Rankings).

44 Lithuania 0.783 
45 Chile 0.783 
46 Argentina 0.775 
47 Kuwait 0.771
48 Latvia 0.769 
49 Montenegro 0.769 
50 Romania 0.767 
51 Croatia 0.767 
52 Uruguay 0.765 
53 Cuba 0.760 
54 Palau 0.757 
55 Libya 0.755 
56 Panama 0.755 
57 Saudi Arabia 0.752 
58 Mexico 0.750 
59 Malaysia 0.744 
60 Bulgaria 0.743 
61 Trinidad and Tobago 0.736 
62 Serbia 0.735 
63 Belarus 0.732 
64 Costa Rica 0.725 
65 Peru 0.723 
66 Albania 0.719 
67 Russia 0.719 
68 Kazakhstan 0.714 
69 Azerbaijan 0.713 
70 Bosnia and Herzegovina 0.710 
71 Ukraine 0.710

A combined computation between PIB Per Capita and HDI would eliminate some anomalies.....well, like Cuba :crazy2:


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## isakres

ManRegio said:


> I don't and will never do such things, and I am still Latin American because I speak Castilian.
> 
> T&T speak English, belong to Commonwealth and they like cricket. They are clearly Caribbean.
> 
> Regards.


*Sarcasm *

Is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.”[1] Though irony and understatement is usually the immediate context,[2] most authorities distinguish sarcasm from irony;[3] however, others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony[4] or employs ambivalence.[5] Sarcasm has been suggested as a possible bullying action in some circumstances.[6]


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## tita01

Malaysia 2015-2020 fifth richest
Thailand 2020-2025 fourth richest future
Philippines 2020-2035 (strong economy) third richest future
Vietnam 2025-2030 (strong economy) second richest future
Indonesia 2030-2040(strong economy) richest nation in asean in future
Cambodia 2045-2055 seventh
Myanmar 2050-2060 sixth richest
Laos 2065-2075 eight
Timor Leste 2080 eleventh
Singapore and Brunei Developed 9 and 10 richest future


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## Galro

isakres said:


> What kind of Industry helped Norway to reach development?,


Shipping and ship manufacturing, hydropower, wood processing, aluminium production and various production firms that focused on producing consumer goods. Then we discovered the oil in the '70s.


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## kwong

Jonesy55 said:


> :laugh: its just a web browser with a tiny share of the global market, somehow I think that Statoil is slightly more important to the Norwegian economy!


yes, but that's not my point...my point is they have a capacity to innovate... ever learn Solow model? What Krugman said to Singapore in 90s?


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## kwong

Galro said:


> *Shipping and ship manufacturing*, hydropower, wood processing, Aluminium production and various production firms that focused on producing consumer goods. Then we discovered the oil in the '70s.


This, +100...


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## kwong

Jonesy55 said:


> :whisper: Er, his country is there :doh:


how do I know? it seems that he's butthurt too much... and that's only a prediction...


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## isakres

Galro said:


> Shipping and ship manufacturing, hydropower, wood processing, aluminium production and various production firms that focused on producing consumer goods. Then we discovered the oil in the '70s.


Thanks, so some Latin Countries are on their way. Shipping, Aerospace, Automotive, Aluminium production, Software and some other industries based in Nanotechnologies are currently popping across the region.




Xvr said:


> Wrong, at least that won't happen this year. Cuba remains in HDI rank


Ok, maybe I was drunk when i was studing the past ranking lol.





kwong said:


> Thanks, you're more sensible to discuss with...
> 
> Of course I might be wrong... but that's also images most people have on Latin/South American countries... even within BRIC they're not the same...
> Russia, China and India have better position in the world production process...


In terms of size certainly India and China are miles away of the other BRICS, but Russia and Brazil have the resources. Resources are a requirement for countries to get industrialized and developed. Brazil could be as rich as Russia in terms of GDP per capita in a few more years if it manages to mantain moderate growing rates and is already richer than India and China (Income per Capita). I wouldnt leave Brazil alone if you want to make differences among the BRICS, in that case you must pull out Russia as well.



kwong said:


> Even a poor country like India, I bet that most students will choose to study information technology, engineering, and business management in India than in Brazil, for example...they have capacity to improve rapidly... this is the most important thing...


Brazil, México, Argentina and other countries have experienced an increase in Engeneering, IT and business Management students over the past 10 years. The pop up of such enterprises as Brazilians Petrobras and Embraer and Mexicans Grupo Alfa and Softek as well as the Multinationals installed in the region have been requiring qualified workforce for many years.




kwong said:


> People who see the current condition must realize that China and India were nothing when Latin/South American countries had already achieve remarkable position in the world...but look how remarkable their achievements only in a short epriod of time...


Indeed both China and India have already reached a remarkable position in the world, which is explained among other things, by the prevalence of the Capitalism and the fact that China and India ensures its prevalence on this century fuled by billions of new customers.


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## Xvr

isakres said:


> Ok, maybe I was drunk when i was studing the past ranking lol.


Oh no, u weren't... they forgot to include Cuba in the rank... that won't happen in November this year.


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## Motul

Argentina is a special case.. They have high growth but higher inflation, closed off economy and institutional defficiencies.. I'm talking about other more promising countries like Chile, Peru, and Colombia. They have solid growth rates and low inflation, also very open economies and high foreign investments as well as credit ratings.

Where are u from? Kwong


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## borr

Xvr said:


> But Cuba has a long poor life... and way better communist education... I mean that's it, HDI measures health, education and wealth. Cuba is way down in weath means, but it is among developed countries in health and education terms.


it needs money to provide social infrastructure to make high HDI, without sustainable economic growth there will be no money to keep HDI high...


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## borr

Motul said:


> Argentina is a special case.. They have high growth but higher inflation, closed off economy and institutional defficiencies.. I'm talking about other more promising countries like Chile, Peru, and Colombia. They have solid growth rates and low inflation, also very open economies and high foreign investments..


Chile and Colombia, perhaps, but not Peru...


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## borr

I think this thread is destined to be a failure... TS doesn't even mention what criteria we should use to determine a country's development status...


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## Rя

the cirteria it's a bit complicated.. but i guess the most accurate is to use the HDI index and information about respect for human rights.


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## isakres

borr said:


> Chile and Colombia, perhaps, but not Peru...


Well, for Investors Perú and Colombia are both the new cute babies of Latinamerica. Perú has had the best performance among the Latin Countries for many years.




Xvr said:


> Oh no, u weren't... they forgot to include Cuba in the rank... that won't happen in November this year.


:tyty: 

It seems my Crystal Ball is functioning better than yours lol.

And back to topic, it seems we could consider Chile and perhaps Argentina as already developed or in the verge of Development as for HDI Standards.


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## VECTROTALENZIS

Here is an historical chart over some countries of GDP per capita (PPP) with future projection to 2015. Although GDP per capita doesn't represent if a country is developed or not it's an indicator of development.


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## isakres

The problem with PIB Per Capita is that it accounts some anomalies related to Oil dependant countries and does not consider some social indicators that the HDI certainly does.

I use a combined index between GDP Per Capita PPP + HDI for a better proxy.


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## Kensingtonian

isakres said:


> I have always tried to think outside of the box. If currently there arent developed countries (according to western standards) that are not well functioning democracies it doesnt mean it couldnt change in the years to come. Perhaps we can redifine the word Developed in the future (that may include some non-western values) or may find Democracy as outdated.
> 
> The case of Cuba has been already explained and despite the bad propaganda about Gadaffi in the Media, the fact is that Lybia has already reached some wealthness and ranked top in Africa since many years ago. Perhaps Gadaffi could do it better for Lybias because or their size (6.5million) and their resources (oil) but they certainly were not that bad.
> .


So freedom and the right to choose your leaders are Western values? The recent uprisings in a number of authoritarian-led Arab countries suggest otherwise. Nobody likes to be oppressed, no matter which part of the world you live in. Democracy is essential. 

Western countries made a transition to democracy at some point in history. Non-Western countries that are under authoritarian regimes will have to do the same in order to move forward. This is where India is way ahead of China, despite having higher levels of poverty.


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## isakres

Kensingtonian said:


> So freedom and the right to choose your leaders are Western values?


I would say Democracy is a contribution of the West for the World.



Kensingtonian said:


> The recent uprisings in a number of authoritarian-led Arab countries suggest otherwise. Nobody likes to be oppressed, no matter which part of the world you live in. Democracy is essential.


Perhaps Democracy is the best form of government known until today, all Im saying is that Im not sure if it would be the best form of government in the future. 



Kensingtonian said:


> Western countries made a transition to democracy at some point in history.


Western Countries have tried so many different forms of organization since they were tribes. It is posibble that Western Countries would find better forms of Government in the future. Perhaps a perfectioned Democracy to avoid such concepts as the "tyranny of the majority" where Alexis de Tocqueville discussied some systems of democracy and majority rule and where he related the term to a scenario in which decisions made by a majority under that system would place that majority's interests so far above a dissenting individual's interest that the individual would be actively oppressed, just like the oppression by tyrants and despots

This term could gain followers as a globalized world creates more "multucultural" countries. 

(p.s. I dont care if you dont believe in Multikulti Merkel!!!!)



Kensingtonian said:


> Non-Western countries that are under authoritarian regimes will have to do the same in order to move forward. This is where India is way ahead of China, despite having higher levels of poverty.


Your arguments are based on the prevalence of Democracy as the best form of government ever, including the past and future years to come and i consider that a failure in your arguments...but anyway it is just my opinion.


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## sixdegrees

zermatt said:


> Regarding Latin America I believe that only Chile, Argentina and Uruguay have the potential to become a developed country next decade. Those are countries with high HDI, GDP at PPP per capita around 18k dollars (2011), good educational system and "acceptable" income inequality That would be the first cohort. The second cohort is Brazil and Mexico. They are the biggest and more diverse economies in Latin America. Their GDP at PPP per capita are around 15k, not that far away from the first group. However, although their educational system is improving fast, it will take a generation to reach a good level. Besides, their infrastructure need bulky investments.
> 
> Country and time frame to become developed:
> 
> 1) Chile 2018 to 2023
> 2) Uruguay 2020 to 2025
> 3) Argentina 2022 to 2027
> 
> 4) Brazil 2035 to 2040
> 5) Mexico 2035 to 2040
> 
> Other Latin American countries are harder to make any prediction due to political uncertainties. Two exceptions would be Costa Rica and Panama.


brazilian troll


Mexico is going to reach developed status HDI this decade after Chile, Argentina and Uruguay, becoming the 1st over 100 million inhabitants country (after the US and Japan) to reach Development.... brazil till next or after next decade


----------



## sixdegrees

That's right, HDI plus PPP per capita are the conditions to determine which country is developed...




Jonesy55 said:


> List of countries between $10,000 and $25,000 GDP/capita PPP, presumably over this are all considered developed, under have some way to go, IMF figures 2010
> 
> 35 Oman 25,492
> 36 Czech Republic 24,950
> 37 Malta 24,833
> 38 Seychelles 23,308
> 39 Portugal 23,262
> 40 Barbados 22,776
> 41 Saudi Arabia 22,607
> 42 Slovakia 22,195
> 43 Antigua and Barbuda 21,460
> 44 Trinidad and Tobago 19,743
> 45 Poland 18,981
> 46 Hungary 18,841
> 47 Estonia 18,527
> 48 Equatorial Guinea 18,209
> 49 Croatia 17,819
> 50 Lithuania 17,235
> 51 Saint Kitts and Nevis 16,192
> *52 Argentina 15,901*
> 53 Russia 15,612
> 54 Lebanon 15,239
> 55 Botswana 15,180
> 56 Gabon 15,072
> *57 Chile 15,040*
> 58 Malaysia 14,744
> 59 Latvia 14,504
> *60 Mexico 14,406*
> *61 Uruguay 14,339*
> 62 Mauritius 14,194
> 63 Belarus 13,874
> 64 Libya 13,846
> 65 Turkey 13,577
> 66 Dominica 13,258
> 67 Grenada 13,110
> 68 Bulgaria 12,934
> 69 Panama 12,615
> 70 Saint Lucia 12,507
> 71 Venezuela 12,048
> 72 Kazakhstan 12,015
> 73 Romania 11,895
> 74 Iran 11,883
> 75 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 11,542
> 76 Brazil 11,273
> 77 Costa Rica 11,043
> --World 10,922
> 78 Montenegro 10,775
> 79 South Africa 10,518
> 80 Serbia 10,252
> 81 Azerbaijan 10,063





isakres said:


> ^^
> So there is no chance for a country to reach development without a "well functioning democracy"? A strong Middle Class and Equal Rights between Men and Women are indeed irreplaceable requirements, im just not sure about democracy....
> 
> Anyway, here are the Developing Countries about to reach developed status according to the HDI standards.
> 
> (As mentioned before, Poland and Hungary are already considered developed as well as some Gulf Countries in the HDI Rankings).
> 
> 44 Lithuania 0.783
> *45 Chile 0.783 *
> *46 Argentina 0.775 *
> 47 Kuwait 0.771
> 48 Latvia 0.769
> 49 Montenegro 0.769
> 50 Romania 0.767
> 51 Croatia 0.767
> *52 Uruguay 0.765 *
> 53 Cuba 0.760
> 54 Palau 0.757
> 55 Libya 0.755
> 56 Panama 0.755
> 57 Saudi Arabia 0.752
> *58 Mexico 0.750 *
> 59 Malaysia 0.744
> 60 Bulgaria 0.743
> 61 Trinidad and Tobago 0.736
> 62 Serbia 0.735
> 63 Belarus 0.732
> 64 Costa Rica 0.725
> 65 Peru 0.723
> 66 Albania 0.719
> 67 Russia 0.719
> 68 Kazakhstan 0.714
> 69 Azerbaijan 0.713
> 70 Bosnia and Herzegovina 0.710
> 71 Ukraine 0.710
> 
> A combined computation between PIB Per Capita and HDI would eliminate some anomalies.....well, like Cuba :crazy2:




In Latin America only 4 countries will reach over *$20k ppp per capita* and a *Very High Human Development Index* this decade:


*Chile
Argentina
Uruguay
Mexico*



probably Panama also.


that's all folks


----------



## isakres

Thx Gd Alexpilsen is banned, otherwise this thread would be about to explode in 3, 2......


----------



## null

Country vs. Country. :no:


----------



## tita01

By the year 2030-2050 
the Philippines,Indonesia,Vietnam will be come worlds largest economy and a developed countries surprassing Chile,Argentina,South Korea,and other richest countries in europe ,asia and americas


----------



## RickyUK

*EDIT


----------



## RickyUK

Voltico said:


> Anyway, Malaysia for me is the only one that can reach development by 2020-2025
> 
> Thailand not before 2030
> 
> Philippines, Vietnam and Indonesia not before 2040[/b]


You're getting development (mesaured using the HDI) mixed up with a country's wealth (GDP). 

A developed country is a country where *everyone* in the country earns enough and is looked after well. 

A wealthy country (with a high GDP) isn't necessarily developed.

E.g. China has the world's 2nd highest GDP but there are still many poor low-earning and people all over China while Norway only has the world's 24th highest GDP but the highest HDI because each individual in Norway earns a lot and the government looks after them well e.g. free health care...


----------



## tita01

Manila 2020-2040 Philippines a Developed country and not oppressed by other countries like ........


----------



## PaulBP

philipines is still very poor. chilean GDP is higher and chile have just 17 million people against 96 of philippines. way ahead. you need at least 40 years to be like chile today. you have some big buildings but the overall look of your cities is still worst than most of the latinamerican countries. worst than peru. lot of slums cheap cars or even moto-taxis. lot of poorness.


----------



## PaulBP

malaysia is different. is a very nice and progressive country is more like chile. but filipinas still poor.


----------



## PaulBP

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Brazilian currency is not inflated. It's about normal. And Mexico reaching first world status before Argentina and Uruguay? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Cuba was one of the most developed countries in Latin America before revolution. If they got rid of the dictatorship, they'd come back very fast.


cuba is a corrupt society. been a capitalist country they will be richer no doubt, but they will stop the fast growing before catching uruguay. plus today they dont have some serious issues of theire caribbean neighbours like delinquence exploding right now like puerto rico, haiti, jamaica. that will start with capitalism. cuba will be richer without comunism, but it will be also a most dangerous country. pretty much like mexico today (some kind of US border) plus they will have MILLION of haitians.


----------



## PaulBP

xrtn2 said:


> Not, South Africa never will be developing country before Brazil and Mexico be.
> 
> India together Brazil and China ,,so funny


its amazing how the rest of the world is allways having the worst idea about latin america when today those latinamerican countries are BY FAR richest than asian (as a whole) and african nations. india is 100 years back of latin american development. china is still poor than the latin american average. even some middle east countries will havent bright future cause the fast population growth that will drop theire gdp per capita income. as i said chile in a decade will catch a lot of developed countries.


----------



## tita01

i agree that the philippines is poor but the economy is faster , 
poverty incident is improve in recent years 
slum people can afford flats screen tv, computer with internet , cellphone etc
philippines is not worst country 
philippines will be developed 2020-2040


----------



## Aztecgoddess

Lost Cosmonaut said:


> Funny and useless thread.





Lost Cosmonaut said:


> ^^ Exactly!
> 
> Typical my dick is bigger than yours or small ***** syndrome thread. Childish.


Wow that's deep, you should join Mensa asap, kudos to you. kay:


----------



## daniel220776

tita01 said:


> i agree that the philippines is poor but the economy is faster ,
> poverty incident is improve in recent years
> slum people can afford flats screen tv, computer with internet , cellphone etc
> philippines is not worst country
> philippines will be developed 2020-2040


Closer to 2050 I would say.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

RickyUK said:


> A developed country is a country where *everyone* in the country earns enough and is looked after well.


What's your comment on USA? Does everyone earn enough and are looked after well?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

xrtn2 said:


> I believe between 2030-2035 Brazil will be a developing country
> 2045 China
> 2065 India


China will surpass Brazil in GDP per capita in around 2016-2018 because of a higher growth. So China will become a developed country earlier than Brazil.

*GDP per capita (PPP) with projections*











*List of countries by future GDP (PPP) per capita estimates*


----------



## sepul

...*HSBC Bank plc issued the report, The World in 2050: Quantifying the Shift in the Global Economy*, on Jan 4, and it's relevant to us here because Karen Ward, the bank's senior global economist and lead author of the report, seems pretty optimistic that Malaysia will fare well over the next four decades...

...According to the HSBC analysis, come 2050, Malaysia will be No. 20 among the world's top 30 economies, as ranked by the size of gross domestic product (GDP). That will mean climbing 17 rungs between now and 2050, the biggest jump recorded by any of these 30 countries. Thailand, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Hong Kong and South Africa are among those below Malaysia in the league table. Singapore will not even be in HSBC's top 30…

…For example, HSBC reckons that China will be the largest economy in 2050 and India will occupy third place. *Other than Malaysia, the emerging economies that will make significant headway in the world standings include Mexico, Turkey, Indonesia, Egypt, Thailand, Colombia and Venezuela*.

Those who will lose a lot of ground are the ageing, rich European economies with small populations. Switzerland and the Netherlands will tumble down the table in 2050, while Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Norway and Denmark are not even in the bank's top-30 list...


----------



## Voltico

RickyUK said:


> You're getting development (mesaured using the HDI) mixed up with a country's wealth (GDP).
> 
> A developed country is a country where *everyone* in the country earns enough and is looked after well.
> 
> A wealthy country (with a high GDP) isn't necessarily developed.
> 
> E.g. China has the world's 2nd highest GDP but there are still many poor low-earning and people all over China while Norway only has the world's 24th highest GDP but the highest HDI because each individual in Norway earns a lot and the government looks after them well e.g. free health care...


*I was talking about GDP percapita....off course you cant compare China and Norway by the size of their economy, when we talk about development that is totally irrelevant....

Now, when we analyse GDP percapita we can see a direct correlation between income per person and the level of development of countries...

The only secret about reaching development is economic growth....when a country grow it has more money available to spend in each individual (higher GDP percapita) which translates in more investment in health care, education, infrastructure, social welfare, etc...which on the other hand translates in more economic growth...it's a virtuous circle difficult to achieve but in the last years we have had good examples like South Corea...*


----------



## Voltico

tita01 said:


> i agree that the philippines is poor but the economy is faster ,
> poverty incident is improve in recent years
> slum people can afford flats screen tv, computer with internet , cellphone etc
> philippines is not worst country
> philippine will be developed 2020-2040


*What was the average growth of the Philippines in the last decade?...not long ago I think I read it was something around 4,5%, is that right?*


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Voltico said:


> *...it's a virtuous circle difficult to achieve but in the last years we have had good examples like South Korea...*


Yeah, plus 10+ more examples, Taiwan for example.


----------



## Motul

tita01 said:
 

> By the year 2015-2030 Malaysia,Vietnam,Indonesia,Philippines, and Thailand will be developed countries


Philippines and Indonesia are too poor still.. Same with vietnam. 2050


----------



## doogerz

I think South America is due for a major economic transformation. While countries are still battling the demons of military rule and corruption, the work ethic, growing resource industries and foreign investment is turning this continent into a significant global power. Brazil tends to get most of the attention in the news but Chile, Argentina, Peru, are all prospering.


----------



## eomer

RickyUK said:


> A developed country is a country where *everyone* in the country earns enough and is looked after well.


Humm...according to this critera, USA and most European countries can't be seen as "developed" countries. Maybe Canada, SWitzerland, Norway and Finland are.


----------



## sixdegrees

Lost Cosmonaut said:


> In Latin America? Only Chile.
> 
> Argentina and Uruguay? Frozen in time. Brazil is a political and bureaucratic mess and *Mexico is close to civil war*.


I will respond you on November 2nd


----------



## sixdegrees

patchay said:


> ^^ Frankly, does the WORLD really care who developed by 2020 and whose not?
> 
> I mean with all the global uncertainties and then billions of people are still starving, needless to say those who have lost jobs, etc.


Is pretty, pretty important to get developed soon as posible, because sometime in the middle term it could become impossible to addres all that challenges.

As the United Nations believe.


----------



## sixdegrees

sepul said:


> only *2.5%* Malaysians living under poverty line while it's *44.2%* in Mexico


buddy those stats are based on our own poverty standards, which are higher than those in Malaysia... (National Poverty Line)

you can't compare poverty lines made with different bases, you only can compare poverty lines based on UN methodology, the so called "Multidimensional Poverty Index" (wait for next wednesday).


Mexico and Malaysia are going to reach developed status HDI very much at same time around 2015, but the rest of countries mentioned on that lists (Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, etc) are still a long way to run.


----------



## sixdegrees

Voltico said:


> *Apart from Malaysia (which is pretty similar to Chile) and maybe Thailand, I don't see how Philippines with a GDP percapita of $3,500, Vietnam $3,100 and Indonesia $4,000 could be a developed country anytime soon...growing at 5%-6% (their average growth rate) those countries would need at least 25 to 30 years to reach a $20,000 percapita...and by that time with the accumulated world inflation that is very likely to be insufficient and the barrier might be set slightly higher at $30,000 meaning that they would still need another 10 years...
> 
> Anyway, Malaysia for me is the only one that can reach development by 2020-2025
> 
> Thailand not before 2030
> 
> Philippines, Vietnam and Indonesia not before 2040*




thats right


----------



## doogerz

eomer said:


> Humm...according to this critera, USA and most European countries can't be seen as "developed" countries. Maybe Canada, SWitzerland, Norway and Finland are.


I wouldn't say Canada would fall into that category. Still lots of people here living under the poverty line.


----------



## Occit

tita01 said:


> the top 10 list is one of fastest growing countries in the world and will become developed by the year 2015-2040 the first country will be developed is Malaysia...


Are you kidding?? stop watching western media, the most fasts growing economies in the world right now are latinamericans!!! (not only Brazil btw, the rest are growing even faster than Brazil, with some exceptions obviously) Stop watching CNN LOL :lol:


----------



## tita01

Under Poverty line

Mexico - 44.2
*Philippines- 22.6 international(2006) maybe improve in recent years* 32.9 national (2006)
Peru-30


----------



## sixdegrees

hehehe tita 


first let me make you know that I love the Philippines and many other south asian countries like Indonesia, since I have wonderful bros over there (and Im telling you very good buddies)..

So Im not biased towards my country.


but, lets call the wine, wine.. and 555, 555 


hold on and personally gonna explain you the secret of development


----------



## tita01

@ six degree sorry but this is real poverty incident in philippines is 22.6 international (2006)
2011??

..sorry i know that mexico will be the first country to become developed like malaysia

 peace


----------



## sixdegrees

tita01 said:


> @ six degree sorry but this is real poverty incident in philippines is 22.6 international (2006)
> 2011??
> 
> ..sorry i know that mexico will be the first country to become developed like malaysia
> 
> peace


my brother.... I LOVE the Philippines, since Im mexican, and (as you may know) we're close cultures.. even when the US imposed over you and over us tendencies ...


----------



## tita01

HDI (2010)
Chile -no. 45
Mexico-no. 58
Malaysia- 59
Brazil -75
China -91
Thailand -94
Philippines - 100 
Indonesia- 111
Vietnam -116
India -122
Bangladesh-132


----------



## tita01

@six degrees

lo siento mi amigo me encanta México también

 paz


----------



## tita01

Rank	Country	HDI
New 2010 estimates for 2010
[4]	Change compared to old 2009 values for 2007	New 2010 estimates for 2010
[4]	Change compared to new 2010 estimates for 2009
[4]
87 (14) Tonga	0.677 0.002
88 (2) Fiji	0.669 0.002
89 (1) Turkmenistan	0.669 0.007
90 (1) Dominican Republic	0.663 0.003
91 (2) China	0.663 0.008
92 (1) El Salvador	0.659 0.004
93 (2) Sri Lanka	0.658 0.005
94 (7) Thailand	0.654 0.006
95 (3) Gabon	0.648 0.006
96 (2) Suriname	0.646 0.003
97 (13) Palestinian territories	0.645	N/A
98 (2) Bolivia	0.643 0.006
99 (1) Paraguay	0.640 0.006
100 (1) Philippines	0.638 0.003
101 (2) Botswana	0.633 0.006
102 (5) Moldova	0.623 0.003
103 (8) Mongolia	0.622 0.006
104 Egypt	0.620 0.006
105 Uzbekistan	0.617 0.005
106 Micronesia, Federated States of	0.614 0.002
107 Guyana	0.611 0.006
108 Namibia	0.606 0.003


----------



## Erran

Occit said:


> Are you kidding?? stop watching western media, the most fasts growing economies in the world right now are latinamericans!!! (not only Brazil btw, the rest are growing even faster than Brazil, with some exceptions obviously) Stop watching CNN LOL :lol:


LOL :lol:, open up your window to the world pls.
Asian countries are the fastest growing countries, sometimes some smaller economic countries even grow faster than China, up to double digit growth (but of course, China is still considered the "fastest" seeing the size of it's economy).

Look at this graph (not new data, but the condition won't drastically change anyway), the largest gap (means the fastest growing economies) are dominated by Asian countries. Brazil, some said here as one of the fastest growing country in the region was not doing so well compared to her counterparts from Asia.










Cheers . . . :cheers:


----------



## isakres

Brazil is not the fastest growing economy in the region by no means. 

Fastest growing economies in Latam are Perú, Argentina and others that arent shown in that graph.


----------



## tita01

your right peruvian economy is very fast about 7-8 %


----------



## Erran

isakres said:


> Brazil is not the fastest growing economy in the region by no means.
> 
> Fastest growing economies in Latam are Perú, Argentina and others that arent shown in that graph.


Same with the case of Asian region, like I've said before, seeing from the size, the importance of the economy of each country, China is considered the "fastest" and it grows consistently high annually (even not that much affected by the Global economic crisis). 

If we talk bout the "fastest", No DOUBT Asian is in the lead. But when talking bout prosperity, average Latin America countries are in better condition for now (okay, exclude some random developed East and Southeast Asian countries as well as Middle Eastern countries).


----------



## Nelju

A nonsense discussion relying on biased statistics. HDI is not a valid parameter to measure development. The main variable should be the pourcentage of people living under the poverty level, but there are many variables to consider. No Latin American country is even close to reach a high development status. A bunch of wannabe capitalist governments building skyscrapers and selling their countries to the best bidder while around those buildings millions of slum dwellers live in the most abject poverty.


----------



## sepul

sixdegrees said:


> buddy those stats are based on our own poverty standards, which are higher than those in Malaysia... (National Poverty Line)
> 
> you can't compare poverty lines made with different bases, you only can compare poverty lines based on UN methodology, the so called "Multidimensional Poverty Index" (wait for next wednesday).
> 
> 
> Mexico and Malaysia are going to reach developed status HDI very much at same time around 2015, but the rest of countries mentioned on that lists (Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, etc) are still a long way to run.


thanx for correcting me


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

@tita01:

how old are you? *you're so annoying*... i've seen the same manner of your posts in other threads.. and some of them are not related to the thread title, childish or lacking of accuracy (insufficient details).. do research, read/watch news, read books and learn economy. 
and please learn about the "forum rules" before posting (especially when posting pictures). sorry


----------



## tita01

@ RioARCHTQTO SORRY TO MY FAULT 16Y


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The IMF club criteria are funny.

Only EU countries joined between 2001 and 2011.

4 out of the 6 (Malta, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia) joined exactly when they adopted €.

The other 2 were Czech republic (joined in 2009 despite keeping Czech crown) and South Cyprus (joined 2001 although not yet in EU).

The poorest member is Estonia (2010 GDP/head at 14 405 US$). 
Note that as of 2010, Slovenia is richer than Portugal - although Portugal was presumably "developed" before 2001, Slovenia only become such on getting €.

Who are out?
Oil exporters:
Qatar
United Arab Emirates
Kuwait
Brunei
Bahrain
Oman
Saudi Arabia
Trinidad and Tobago
all of which are richer than Estonia.
Who are in outside Europe and North America?
Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and Asian tigers South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore.

How about West Indies?
Bahamas are richer than Portugal. Antigua and Barbuda and Barbados are richer than Estonia.

Who might be next?

Next tiger of Asia might be Malaysia. Well richer than Thailand and China.

In Latin America, countries now richer than Malaysia are:
Uruguay
Chile
Brazil
Venezuela
Mexico
Argentina

In EU, countries richer than Malaysia are:
Horvatia
Hungary
Poland
Lithuania
Latvia

Around EU, countries richer than Malaysia are:
Russia
Turkey
Kazakhstan.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
I believe we should use a combination between HDI and GDP per capita. Maybe countries over *0.800* and *US$ 20.000,00* should be regarded as developed:

Canada 
United States

Andorra
Austria
Belgium
Cyprus
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom

Bahrain
Brunei
Hong Kong
Israel
Japan
Qatar
Singapore
South Korea
United Arab Emirates

Australia
New Zealand

Countries which have reached one of the goals (GDP or HDI): Bahamas, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Kuwait, Malta, Portugal, Slovakia and Taiwan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita


----------



## guy4versa4

chile,qatar and malaysia


----------



## Lost Cosmonaut

South Sudan - 3097
Somalia - 3081
Sierra Leone - 3075
Liberia -3073


----------



## Nelju

Spain has an unemployment rate superior to 20%. Its GDP per capita is close to $30 000. Is it still a developed country?


----------



## isakres

chornedsnorkack said:


> The IMF club criteria are funny.
> 
> Only EU countries joined between 2001 and 2011.
> 
> 4 out of the 6 (Malta, Slovenia, Slovakia, Estonia) joined exactly when they adopted €.
> 
> The other 2 were Czech republic (joined in 2009 despite keeping Czech crown) and South Cyprus (joined 2001 although not yet in EU).
> 
> The poorest member is Estonia (2010 GDP/head at 14 405 US$).
> Note that as of 2010, Slovenia is richer than Portugal - although Portugal was presumably "developed" before 2001, Slovenia only become such on getting €.
> 
> Who are out?
> Oil exporters:
> Qatar
> United Arab Emirates
> Kuwait
> Brunei
> Bahrain
> Oman
> Saudi Arabia
> Trinidad and Tobago
> all of which are richer than Estonia.
> Who are in outside Europe and North America?
> Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and Asian tigers South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore.
> 
> How about West Indies?
> Bahamas are richer than Portugal. Antigua and Barbuda and Barbados are richer than Estonia.
> 
> Who might be next?
> 
> Next tiger of Asia might be Malaysia. Well richer than Thailand and China.
> 
> In Latin America, countries now richer than Malaysia are:
> Uruguay
> Chile
> Brazil
> Venezuela
> Mexico
> Argentina
> 
> In EU, countries richer than Malaysia are:
> Horvatia
> Hungary
> Poland
> Lithuania
> Latvia
> 
> Around EU, countries richer than Malaysia are:
> Russia
> Turkey
> Kazakhstan.


Indeed the IMF Criteria sounds a bit funny or without logic for the first instance, but to be honest, I have to read a bit more about the methodology they are using.




Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> I believe we should use a combination between HDI and GDP per capita. Maybe countries over *0.800* and *US$ 20.000,00* should be regarded as developed:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita


I think thats the best proxy we have till now. Maybe the HDI could be fixed to include more variables in the future.




Moncaltor said:


> Spain has an unemployment rate superior to 20%. Its GDP per capita is close to $30 000. Is it still a developed country?



Of course, Spain is still a developed country. Unemployment rate is not an accurate proxy to measure development cause it is affected by temporal anomalies like the current financial crisis. If Spain cant manage to low unemployment rates or increase productivity, sooner or later it will be reflected in GDP Per Capita and HDI.




Erran said:


> Same with the case of Asian region, like I've said before, seeing from the size, the importance of the economy of each country, China is considered the "fastest" and it grows consistently high annually (even not that much affected by the Global economic crisis).
> 
> If we talk bout the "fastest", No DOUBT Asian is in the lead. But when talking bout prosperity, average Latin America countries are in better condition for now (okay, exclude some random developed East and Southeast Asian countries as well as Middle Eastern countries).


Yeap, I havent said the opposite. Latinamerica -on average- has better living standards than Developing Asia, in the other hand E and SE Asia is growing faster on average. I just pointed that we have also Latin countries growing at a 7-10% pace.


----------



## Leandrix

Moncaltor said:


> Spain has an unemployment rate superior to 20%. Its GDP per capita is close to $30 000. Is it still a developed country?


Absolutely yes.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

isakres said:


> Yeap, I havent said the opposite. Latinamerica -on average- has better living standards than Developing Asia, in the other hand E and SE Asia is growing faster on average. I just pointed that we have also Latin countries growing at a 7-10% pace.


Indeed.
In Asia, there is no country between Taiwan and Malaysia.

The richer Latin American countries are in that range.
So who will reach the finish line first - Malaysia, or some of the Latin American countris?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> I believe we should use a combination between HDI and GDP per capita. Maybe countries over *0.800* and *US$ 20.000,00* should be regarded as developed:
> 
> Canada
> United States
> 
> Andorra
> Austria
> Belgium
> Cyprus
> Denmark
> Finland
> France
> Germany
> Greece
> Iceland
> Ireland
> Italy
> Liechtenstein
> Luxembourg
> Netherlands
> Norway
> Slovenia
> Spain
> Sweden
> Switzerland
> United Kingdom
> 
> Bahrain
> Brunei
> Hong Kong
> Israel
> Japan
> Qatar
> Singapore
> South Korea
> United Arab Emirates
> 
> Australia
> New Zealand
> 
> Countries which have reached one of the goals (GDP or HDI): Bahamas, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Kuwait, Malta, Portugal, Slovakia and Taiwan
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita


A map with these countries:



In green, the countries with both GDP per capita between US$ 10,000.00-20,000.00 and HDI ranging from 0.750 to 0.800 (Barbados, Chile, Croatia, Latvia, Libya, Lithuania, Poland, Saudi Arabia and Uruguay) and in light green which have reached one of the goals (GDP or HDI).


----------



## sebvill

The next region to become dveloped

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=85211931#post85211931


The biggest challenge: the huge social differences that still prevail.


----------



## isakres

Yuri S Andrade said:


> A map with these countries:
> 
> 
> 
> In green, the countries with both GDP per capita between US$ 10,000.00-20,000.00 and HDI ranging from 0.750 to 0.800 (Barbados, Chile, Croatia, Latvia, Libya, Lithuania, Poland, Saudi Arabia and Uruguay) and in light green which have reached one of the goals (GDP or HDI).


I rather choose GDP per capita PPP than nominal to obtain a better proxy for living standards among countries, but its fine and give us a general idea as well.





chornedsnorkack said:


> Indeed.
> In Asia, there is no country between Taiwan and Malaysia.
> 
> The richer Latin American countries are in that range.
> So who will reach the finish line first - Malaysia, or some of the Latin American countris?




There are a lot of chances that Chile, Argentina and Uruguay became developed faster than Malaysia. Latvia, Lithuania, Croatia, etc will also became developed first. The countries of Latinamerica´s southern cone have already better living standards and have growing rates between 5 and 8%.

Malaysia would closely came up with a second group of countries that may encompass Bulgaria, Mexico, Serbia, etc.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

isakres said:


> I rather choose GDP per capita PPP than nominal to obtain a better proxy for living standards among countries, but its fine and give us a general idea as well.


I wouldn't as the GDP PPP is already taken into account in HDI equation. Nominal GDP is a very important indicator as it shows the countries weight in the world arena. Anyhow, a real PPP is impossible to calculate as even in the same country we have huge price differences. It's only a guess. 

About the map, I believe Libya will fall under the US$ 10.000,00 barrier as result of the civil war, hence becoming light green. If I'm not mistaken, the next HDI will be released November 2nd, than I'll update the map.


----------



## Mehome

Indonesia before 2025


----------



## Motul

Mehome said:


> Indonesia before 2025


Extremely unlikely. 2045


----------



## sebvill

Not even by then I think.


----------



## LADEN

mauritius, cape verde. Is the seychelles considered developed as it has an HDI of 0.843.


----------



## LADEN

Lost Cosmonaut said:


> South Sudan - 3097
> Somalia - 3081
> Sierra Leone - 3075
> Liberia -3073


:lol:

South Sudan probably. Although those other costal nations can develop quicker.


----------



## David-80

Motul said:


> Extremely unlikely. *2045*


If you use HDI index as a measurement then yes, it will be around year 2042-2045.

0.007x30 = 0.21 + current HDI 0.60 so by 2040s the index will reach 0.81, the standard for developed countries in HDI index. but Indonesia need to get 0.007 point each year to reach that status. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

but the index point is pretty much screwed up, UN changed the point system again last year, thus you see lower points. hno:

Cheers


----------



## seems

some people from a certain region love to brag and mock others, while some from other regions love to work hard...

when you love to brag your country is frozen in time, but if you work hard your country is like the ones in these pictures: 

*Seoul 1960s*








*Seoul 2011*









*soon this country in the picts below will follow the league of the country above:*

*Shenzhen 1980s*








*Shenzhen 2011*


----------



## Motul

^^4 posts


----------



## seems

Motul said:


> ^^4 posts



Don't shoot the messenger....

do you support the act of mocking Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Sudan and Liberia?


----------



## isakres

Yuri S Andrade said:


> I wouldn't as the GDP PPP is already taken into account in HDI equation. Nominal GDP is a very important indicator as it shows the countries weight in the world arena. Anyhow, a real PPP is impossible to calculate as even in the same country we have huge price differences. It's only a guess.


Mmhhh, I thought they replaced GDP PPP by GNI in the 2010 Report. Anyway I guess there are not huge differencies between GNI, GDP PPP and Nominal GDP.

Im not sure if GDP Nominal Per Capita shows the countries' weight in the world arena (Your are showing Per Capita figures in your map). I mean, would you think Louxemburg has a heavier weight in the world arena than China?. 

Moreover, Im not sure if weight in the world arena really matters when we talk about life quality and living standards. It would reflect the power of each country overall but I guess thats a whole different thing



Yuri S Andrade said:


> About the map, I believe Libya will fall under the US$ 10.000,00 barrier as result of the civil war, hence becoming light green. If I'm not mistaken, the next HDI will be released November 2nd, than I'll update the map.


Im not sure how much Libyas production was affected by this last war.

Yep, the HDI will be released by Nov 2nd.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

How developed was South Korea compared to Latin america in the 60s? Look at where South Korea is now and where Latin america is. Nobody would have thought that would happen. Same today, China and South Asia may be poorer than Latin America, however I would not be surprised if they get developed before Latin America. In fact, I think that they WILL surpass the Latin American countries in around 10 years time...at least China

Just look at this chart:











Downtown Seoul 60s


----------



## seems

^^

haven't you got surprised that nobody here wants to discuss your chart?
it's not easy to accept the fact....
thanks for the chart btw, very enlightening...


----------



## seems

just one example, here Sao Paulo 1960s and today... you can see similarities of the rate of "development acceleration" in Bogota, Buenos Aires, Mexico City, etc...

*Sao Paulo 1960s*









*Sao Paulo nowadays*


----------



## isakres

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> How developed was South Korea compared to Latin america in the 60s? Look at where South Korea is now and where Latin america is. Nobody would have thought that would happen. Same today, China and South Asia may be poorer than Latin America, however I would not be surprised if they get developed before Latin America. In fact, I think that they WILL surpass the Latin American countries in around 10 years time...at least China
> 
> Just look at this chart:



South Korea was like sh*thole back in 1960, it was way poorer than latinamerica and look at them right now. Its a nice success story. 

But everybody would guessed South Korea´s future back in 1980 with the use of simply statistics. By the use of trends and forecasts, it would not be difficult to foreseen that South Korea will reach development faster than Latin Countries. It is well known that China will become "rich" by the first half of this century and it certainly will become developed first than other Latin Countries. I have heard about China´s development pretty much for 20 years.

It is just that some Latincountries are now close than ever to reach development status and using the same statistcs, trends and projections, Ill say Eastern Euorpean Countries, Chile and Argentina will develop first.

Im not bashing any region, all im saying is pretty well explained in Statistics I. Indeed Asias story will be fascinating during XXI century as well, cause the rise of China, India and Indonesia will keep busy the whole region.


----------



## Mehome

Motul said:


> Extremely unlikely. 2045


hmmm..i guess you know nothing about Indonesia, if our economic growth continues at the current rate, by 2020 Indonesia's income per capita (by nominal) will be equivalent to that of the Taiwan today (17k US$). And for your information, in 2002 Indonesia's income per capita was not reach US$1000, and now it may hit US$4000! 

and the good news is, by 2013 Indonesia's economic growth rate may exceed 8% :banana2:

*Roubini: Goodbye China, hello Indonesia*
October 25, 2011


> If economist Nouriel Roubini was a betting man, he’d be cashing out of China and doubling down on Indonesia. On his first trip to south-east Asia’s largest economy, Roubini argued the case for countries with growth models like Indonesia, where nearly two-thirds of GDP is domestic consumption, rather than China, at roughly one third and, as he has previously warned , “could be headed toward a hard landing.”
> 
> *Indonesia has low inflation, low debt (at about 26 per cent of GDP), young demographics and accelerating growth. China he said, is slowing and has a debt-to-GDP ratio of closer to 80 per cent (though China’s official figure is just 18 per cent). Indonesia learned a hard lesson during the 1997-1998 financial crisis, when GDP shrank 13 per cent in a year, capital flooded out and the rupiah collapsed. Now, along with most of its south-east Asian neighbours, it has built up “massive reserves” and is in healthy shape. On the other hand, ”China needs to move away from the growth model and find balanced growth of the other emerging markets, like Indonesia, India and Brazil,” he said.*
> 
> “It is the time of rising power of the emerging markets and emerging Asia is the fastest growing region in the world. *Indonesia is a country that can be very important in the global economy. By the end of the decade it will be the 10th largest economy and by 2030, it could be the 6th.”*:banana:
> 
> So you see, Dr Doom isn’t gloomy about everything.


read more : http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2011/10/25/roubini-goodbye-china-hello-indonesia/#axzz1cIJ8oAaY

*Indonesia – the rising star*
Saturday October 29, 2011


> It may not be getting as much attention from the world as China and India, but make no mistake, every business expert and economist are well aware of the economic potential of Indonesia. *With renewed vigour after the 1997/98 Asian Financial Crisis, that the tiger economy is now roaring back, emerging as a star performer in the region and drawing international interest.*
> 
> *The latest endorsement came from renowned economist and New York University professor Nouriel Roubini (aka Dr Doom or Dr Realist.)* Roubini told the Jakarta Globe over the week he was impressed by what he saw the moment he stepped foot on Indonesia, and that he was bullish about the country's economy because of its overall policy framework and its government's commitment to reform.
> 
> *Such sentiment is also reflected in the findings of HSBC Global Research.* The division of HSBC Global Banking and Markets in its July report entitled, “The next big thing here comes Indonesia”, says the country has the potential of even surpassing an 8% growth rate by 2020. This would clearly make Indonesia one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. And as the international financial services provider argued, it would provide an enticing picture because in Asia, only China and India offer that kind of rapid growth rate.
> 
> *A recent BBC survey of more than 24,000 people across 24 countries put Indonesia as the best place for entrepreneurs to start a business.* This was followed by the United States, Canada, India and Australia.


read more : http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/10/29/business/9795762&sec=


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

tita01 said:


> @ RioARCHTQTO SORRY TO MY FAULT 16Y


ok...


----------



## seems

you're very sensible, using statistics to back up your argument...

I see Argentina has been waiting since decades ago... they deserve to get a developed status in the very near future...

as for a small country as Chile, it's no surprise... if China, India are as small as Chile, they would be a developed country years ago, just look at HK, Spore, and Taiwan...

The most amazing countries are of course China and India... look at their population number.. do you people even realize that making China or India as a developed country means similar to make about 3 USA? 





isakres said:


> South Korea was like sh*thole back in 1960, it was way poorer than latinamerica and look at them right now. Its a nice success story.
> 
> But everybody would guessed South Korea´s future back in 1980 with the use of simply statistics. By the use of trends and forecasts, it would not be difficult to foreseen that South Korea will reach development faster than Latin Countries. It is well known that China will become "rich" by the first half of this century and it certainly will become developed first than other Latin Countries. I have heard about China´s development pretty much for 20 years.
> 
> It is just that some Latincountries are now close than ever to reach development status and using the same statistcs, trends and projections, Ill say Eastern Euorpean Countries, Chile and Argentina will develop first.
> 
> Im not bashing any region, all im saying is pretty well explained in Statistics I. Indeed Asias story will be fascinating during XXI century as well, cause the rise of China, India and Indonesia will keep busy the whole region.


----------



## seems

They replace GDP PPP with GNI (also PPP)... for some countries, their GDP is indeed significantly different from their GNI (whether PPP or nominal)...

but still using both GDP PPP and HDI is alright since in HDI, though there're GDP PPP indicator for prior to 2010, still there are other dimensions which show whether GDP PPP of a country is positively correlated with HDI or not...





isakres said:


> Mmhhh, I thought they replaced GDP PPP by GNI in the 2010 Report. Anyway I guess there are not huge differencies between GNI, GDP PPP and Nominal GDP.
> 
> Im not sure if GDP Nominal Per Capita shows the countries' weight in the world arena (Your are showing Per Capita figures in your map). I mean, would you think Louxemburg has a heavier weight in the world arena than China?.
> 
> Moreover, Im not sure if weight in the world arena really matters when we talk about life quality and living standards. It would reflect the power of each country overall but I guess thats a whole different thing
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure how much Libyas production was affected by this last war.
> 
> Yep, the HDI will be released by Nov 2nd.


----------



## LADEN

Gabon and Equatorial guinea in Africa can easily develop if their leaders weren't corrupt. 

Also Namibia with the oil find and Botswana they have good governance so they can develop soon.

In the caribbean countries like Cuba, Suriname, Guyana, Jamaica, Belize and the Dominican Republic should be developed by 2040. T&T can be by 2025, and Haiti will pick and should be half-deveolped by 2050.

All those other islands in the caribbean are deveolped imo.


----------



## seems

Botswana is already a high income country with good infrastructure...



LADEN said:


> Gabon and Equatorial guinea in Africa can easily develop if their leaders weren't corrupt.
> 
> Also Namibia with the oil find and Botswana they have good governance so they can develop soon.
> 
> In the caribbean countries like Cuba, Suriname, Guyana, Jamaica, Belize and the Dominican Republic should be developed by 2040. T&T can be by 2025, and Haiti will pick and should be half-deveolped by 2050.
> 
> All those other islands in the caribbean are deveolped imo.


----------



## isakres

seems said:


> you're very sensible, using statistics to back up your argument...
> 
> I see Argentina has been waiting since decades ago... they deserve to get a developed status in the very near future...
> 
> as for a small country as Chile, it's no surprise... if China, India are as small as Chile, they would be a developed country years ago, just look at HK, Spore, and Taiwan...
> 
> The most amazing countries are of course China and India... look at their population number.. do you people even realize that making China or India as a developed country means similar to make about 3 USA?


Actually Argentina is recovering their developed status, they were among the top 10 richest economies at the beginning of the past century. Some bad economic policies *****d them for many years. I still have some doubts if Argentina could manage to keep sustained growth and wealthness for the long term mainly because of strange heterodox economic policies, but its working for them until now, so I just hope they can handle it.

As for Chile, well it has consistently grown at a 5-10% pace for more than 20 years, plus they have applied sound economic policies and their governments have shown a lot of responsability and effectiveness. I have always said that small countries are easier to manage, just as small companies. But trying to give some credit to them it is also hard for a small company to be the best of their segment cause it doesnt have the resources of the big fishes. Anyway, take Chile as our Taiwan.

You cant compare India or China with Chile trying to say that if they were smaller they would be already developed. Its equal to say if Sao Paulo, Mexico City, Monterrey or Curitiba were countries they would be developed as well. It is just non sense.

Anyway, i would agree that some asian nations were amazing succes stories in the past century, and as I have already said, we will see more amazing stories from that region in this century, because the rise in wages in China, India and eventually in Indonesia will imply a shift in Industries moving to cheaper places (possibly neighboring countries) and this new industrial basement installed in such countries as Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, etc will produce a lot of wellness as they try to satisfy the demand of 2.4 billion of neighbours. They have plenty of possibilities to get developed, it just will take a bit more years cause they started from a lower base.




seems said:


> They replace GDP PPP with GNI (also PPP)... for some countries, their GDP is indeed significantly different from their GNI (whether PPP or nominal)...
> 
> but still using both GDP PPP and HDI is alright since in HDI, though there're GDP PPP indicator for prior to 2010, still there are other dimensions which show whether GDP PPP of a country is positively correlated with HDI or not...


I would guessed for some countries GDP is significantly different from their GNI, that was the reason they change the methodology, otherwise they would leave it as it was.




LADEN said:


> Gabon and Equatorial guinea in Africa can easily develop if their leaders weren't corrupt.


In not sure about Gabon, I think its easier for Equatorial Guinea. You know, lots of oil, tiny population. They just need fair governments to reflect those GDP Per Capita figures they already have into the pockets of their inhabitants.

As for Africa, my picks would be the Islands and Southafrica.

Tunisia would remain on my list, I just need more info about the current and projected economic / political conditions after the Arab spring. 




LADEN said:


> In the caribbean countries like Cuba, Suriname, Guyana, Jamaica, Belize and the Dominican Republic should be developed by 2040. T&T can be by 2025, and Haiti will pick and should be half-deveolped by 2050.
> 
> All those other islands in the caribbean are deveolped imo.


If you were latin I would bet you are being ironic :|


----------



## oliver999

asia culture core is hardworking.


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

Does *"public debt"* matters?

Then it would be easier for Chile to be a Developed Country on or before 2020. (means could be easier than other countries in Latin America)

Chile's public debt is only 9.2% of their GDP
Argentina: 45.1% of their GDP while for
Brazil: 60.8% of their GDP


----------



## aquaticko

^^Depends on who owns the debt. If you're Japan, then let the debt pile grow. If you're...almost anyone else, then you have to at least be mindful of it. Nationalism works in a country's favor almost all the time.

Anywho, as a short sort-of intro of myself on this topic, we all know that all of Asia has and is beginning to show signs of its great potential for development; I'm most interested in seeing which east African nation develops first. It seems like it ought to be Ethiopia or Kenya.

Though as an aside, where are people getting their figures from? For example, Taiwan and South Korea, per the IMF, have per capita GDP's of 18,556 and 20,756, respectively. I think it's much more important to note the gap between those countries' nominal and PPP per capita GDP: 35,604 and 29,997. Clearly, their economies are substantially undervalued.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

aquaticko said:


> ^^Depends on who owns the debt. If you're Japan, then let the debt pile grow. If you're...almost anyone else, then you have to at least be mindful of it. Nationalism works in a country's favor almost all the time.
> 
> Anywho, as a short sort-of intro of myself on this topic, we all know that all of Asia has and is beginning to show signs of its great potential for development; I'm most interested in seeing which east African nation develops first. It seems like it ought to be Ethiopia or Kenya.
> 
> Though as an aside, where are people getting their figures from? For example, Taiwan and South Korea, per the IMF, have per capita GDP's of 18,556 and 20,756, respectively. I think it's much more important to note the gap between those countries' nominal and PPP per capita GDP: 35,604 and 29,997. Clearly, their economies are substantially undervalued.


GDP PPP per capita is should always be used when comparing GDP PER CAPITA and living standard. Many currencies can be overvalued and vice-verca.


----------



## Occit

Moncaltor said:


> A bunch of wannabe capitalist governments building skyscrapers and selling their countries to the best bidder while around those buildings millions of slum dwellers live in the most abject poverty.


Are you describing Asia? :crazy:


----------



## Occit

seems said:


> just one example, here Sao Paulo 1960s and today... you can see similarities of the rate of "development acceleration" in Bogota, Buenos Aires, Mexico City, etc...
> 
> *Sao Paulo 1960s*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Sao Paulo nowadays*


WTF!!! what stupid comparision, 

London 1960:










London 2010: 










and the UK is a developed country :sleepy:


----------



## Jonesy55

Occit said:


> WTF!!! what stupid comparision,
> 
> London 1960:
> 
> London 2010:
> 
> and the UK is a developed country :sleepy:


Actually the Houses of Parliament were much dirtier back then as London was more industrial.


----------



## patchay

I'll choose *Sustainable Economic Growth *anytime rather than who can "power-up" to be developed first. 

Look at Greece, they did pretty well over the last decade or so, but in the end they fell flat onto their face. No offence. 

The interesting story about Asia is that spectacular economic growth has brought an unprecedented no. of people becoming the "new middle class." The numbers are so amazing that is now driving global growth today, and we did it in a shorter time span as independent nations compared to most developed countries today.

And don't forget many Asian nations have very young demographics and definitely our time will come. I remember hearing people talking about cities such as Shenzhen, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, etc were just forest 5 decades ago and totally unheard of by the outside world, but it's a totally different story today.

Quality of life in Asia, judge yourself (5 pix): 




nazrey said:


> Suburban Penang, Malaysia's 2nd metropolis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rob_chan/5473197897/





Ethaniel83 said:


> Suburban Puchong, Malaysia





nazrey said:


> Suburban Kuala Lumpur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/patrick_c/5616410812/





nazrey said:


> Suburban Kuala Lumpur
> 
> View from home on a good day... on a bad day, it's much hazier by TidgeH, on Flickr





nazrey said:


> Suburban Mont'Kiara
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/malindo_gan/5571372604/


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Those pictures don't mean anything to me. Malaysia's HDI is 0.744 and its GDP per capita is US$ 8.423,00. Quite far from the developed status. I don't know why some Asian forumers insist to bring pictures to the discussion.


----------



## Jonesy55

Looking at this, Zimbabwe should be 'fully developed' by April 2023.


----------



## patchay

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Those pictures don't mean anything to me. Malaysia's HDI is 0.744 and its GDP per capita is US$ 8.423,00. Quite far from the developed status. I don't know why some Asian forumers insist to bring pictures to the discussion.


Yes.. still far, very far but have a growing Asian middle class was my point. It could be small by percentage compared to richer nations, but the total numbers is huge and that is good for the overall human race. Just look at the new millionaires of China, India and Indonesia. LOL

The overall growth in Asia is nevertheless sustainable in the long run, but we *should not try to beat or challenge another continent*. Go at our own pace, slow and steady.

In the meantime, more and more Asians are buying homes in London, New York City and Sydney and I'm interested too. LOL


----------



## patchay

A Dutch friend once told me: Long time ago, Westerners throng Hong Kong to shop for luxury brands, but today, it's the exact opposite. Asians throng Europe to shop for luxury brands whereas Westerners shopped at the "night markets" in Asia. 

my 2 cents and no offence to everyone. CHeers!


----------



## provinciano

^^ And brazilian go to Miami, buy 9% of apartments and many stuff. I mean, we must be developed in that kind of idea.


----------



## Mehome

^^ what about this picture?









read more : IMF Report


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

patchay said:


> In the meantime, more and more Asians are buying homes in London, New York City and Sydney and I'm interested too. LOL


This doesn't mean much. American are buying property in Panama. Italians are buying property in New York, British are buying property in Spain, Russians are buying property in Turkey....

You just hear lately more about Asians because they are the new commers on the block.


----------



## guy4versa4

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> This doesn't mean much. American are buying property in Panama. Italians are buying property in New York, British are buying property in Spain, Russians are buying property in Turkey....
> 
> You just hear lately more about Asians because they are the new commers on the block.


yeah,but they are already developed city,...this topic is about developing city,please realize it


----------



## Jonesy55

patchay said:


> A Dutch friend once told me: Long time ago, Westerners throng Hong Kong to shop for luxury brands, but today, it's the exact opposite. Asians throng Europe to shop for luxury brands whereas Westerners shopped at the "night markets" in Asia.
> 
> my 2 cents and no offence to everyone. CHeers!


I think westerners probably shop at both luxury outlets and night markets in Asia, night markets are more interesting for most tourists though as you will find and see things you won't at home. 

It seems pointless to me to fly halfway around the world just to buy bags and jewellery in modern shopping malls when you could do that at home if you needed to. But some people do it it's true.


----------



## isakres

Jonesy55 said:


> I think westerners probably shop at both luxury outlets and night markets in Asia, night markets are more interesting for most tourists though as you will find and see things you won't at home.
> 
> It seems pointless to me to fly halfway around the world just to buy bags and jewellery in modern shopping malls when you could do that at home if you needed to. But some people do it it's true.


+1.



guy4versa4 said:


> yeah,but they are already developed city,...this topic is about developing city,please realize it


Im not sure if I get your point. Wealthy Brazilians, Colombians and Mexicans does also shop in Luxury boutiques overseas. Its quite normal isnt it?

Personally I would not do Luxury Shopping in Asia mainly because I would want to learn more about their own culture. I mean I rather choose to visit noght / typical markets than to visit some Louis Voitton or Gucci stores that I have a few blocks away of my house. I mean, I travelled to the otherside of the world........and there are closer destinations to do some shopping trips like Rodeo Drive in LA or even Houston :dunno:





Mehome said:


> ^^ what about this picture?


So what are your pics to be next developing country to get developed status? The IMF does also include projections as for 2016 or 2018.
They include projected growing rates also, so you can do the math till 2020.

I did that using PPP figures (since it would represent how many wealthness can population accumulate giving local prices and cost of living), plus, I considered the HDI figures.


----------



## pesto

Mehome said:


> ^^ what about this picture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> read more : IMF Report


Hurray for Kazakhstan! By 2020, the richest real country in the world.

But are they a developed country? Numbers have the advantage of being easily comparable. But there has to be a reasonable connection between the number, the concept at issue and the situation on the streets.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Those pictures don't mean anything to me. Malaysia's HDI is 0.744 and its GDP per capita is US$ 8.423,00. Quite far from the developed status. I don't know why some Asian forumers insist to bring pictures to the discussion.


Malaysia's GDP per capita (PPP) is 14.744 Int.$.
It's not so far from Estonia's 18.524 Int.$. which is developed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


----------



## guy4versa4

i think we shouldnt talk about america aussie or uk,they already achive their status...its not fair to compairing something difference,focus on the topic is important,i live in kuala lumpur and believe malaysia will get the status around 2020 base on good lifestyle,low crime,boosting economic(GTP program), great tourism spot,and rich culture,we can see most of developing country are mostly facing problem of safety,infrastructure and poor lifestyle..


----------



## seems

You just get my point... UK is a developed country, so its low economic growth is normal as what happens to developed countries...

BUT Latin American countries AREN'T developed countries...they're just frozen in time....:cheers:




Occit said:


> WTF!!! what stupid comparision,
> 
> London 1960:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London 2010:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the UK is a developed country :sleepy:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Malaysia's GDP per capita (PPP) is 14.744 Int.$.
> It's not so far from Estonia's 18.524 Int.$. which is developed.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


GDP PPP doesn't mean nothing to me. Malaysia's GDP is produced in ringgit and liking or not 1 dollar worths 3.06 ringgits. Don't expect Malaysia to be regarded as developed with a GDP per capita nominal under US$ 20,000.00 or maybe more due the inflation for this distant future.



seems said:


> You just get my point... UK is a developed country, so its low economic growth is normal as what happens to developed countries...
> 
> BUT Latin American countries AREN'T developed countries...they're just frozen in time....:cheers:


Could you stop trolling?


----------



## seems

of course Malaysia is closed to a developed country status!
It's poverty rate is low and it's middle class percentage of total population is so high.... compared that with high poverty rate and small percentage of middle class in Latin American countries....:cheers:




patchay said:


> Yes.. still far, very far but have a growing Asian middle class was my point. It could be small by percentage compared to richer nations, but the total numbers is huge and that is good for the overall human race. Just look at the new millionaires of China, India and Indonesia. LOL
> 
> The overall growth in Asia is nevertheless sustainable in the long run, but we *should not try to beat or challenge another continent*. Go at our own pace, slow and steady.
> 
> In the meantime, more and more Asians are buying homes in London, New York City and Sydney and I'm interested too. LOL


----------



## seems

Yuri S Andrade said:


> GDP PPP doesn't mean nothing to me. Malaysia's GDP is produced in ringgit and liking or not 1 dollar worths 3.06 ringgits. Don't expect Malaysia to be regarded as developed with a GDP per capita nominal under US$ 20,000.00 or maybe more due the inflation for this distant future.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you stop trolling?


And you're not trolling with your insults to Asian and African countries? Where's moderator? Why haven't this person get banned?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

seems said:


> of course Malaysia is closed to a developed country status!
> It's poverty rate is low and it's middle class percentage of total population is so high.... compared that with high poverty rate and small percentage of middle class in Latin American countries....:cheers:


Again, will you post data to back your assertives or can we expect more trolling?



seems said:


> And you're not trolling with your insults to Asian and African countries? Where's moderator? Why haven't this person get banned?


Really, it's getting ridiculous. You'll be reported.


----------



## seems

isakres said:


> This thread has turned into a Region vs Region fight thanks to stupidity.


what do you expect when some people from a certain region "laugh" on other regions?...


----------



## Motul

seems said:


> You forget something Sir, while there are countries like Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, etc in Asia, there are also Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Brunei, Saudi, Qatar, etc. which are not included in that list... and you also exclude Spore...In the end, Asian, Latin American, and African are just too generalized to be labelled as each country is unique...:cheers:




This thread is about developing countries. If we do what you are saying, we can also extend Latin America towards America's and include USA, Canada and all the wealthy caribbean islands (Cayman, Barbados, Bermuda, etc)...


----------



## Motul

isakres said:


> This thread has turned into a Region vs Region fight thanks to stupidity.


And I guess you didn't have any participation in the "stupid fight"? or should i start quoting? :lol:


----------



## snowland

In Latin America, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay.


----------



## seems

Motul said:


> This thread is about developing countries. If we do what you are saying, we can also extend Latin America towards America's and include USA, Canada and all the wealthy caribbean islands (Cayman, Barbados, Bermuda, etc)...


I already guessed that you'll say this...but I remind you that we compare Latin America and Asia....okay, we can reduce it to Latin America vs East Asia if you like...nah, kidding....

As I mentioned above, this section is actually about Citytalk and Urban Issues, not about country or region..


----------



## isakres

Facts:

Target to reach developed estatus:
HDI : *0,784 *(since the UN considers countries with an IDH of 0,784 as countries with Very High Human Development Index, which is, the highest status possible under this classification).

GDP Per Capita PPP >*USD$20,000 *(Since Countries considered by the UN as Very High Human Development under the IDH criteria already have GDP Per Capita PPP above USD$20,000).


*Chile* 
Average Growth 5.75
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	15,040
HDI 2010 *0,783*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	*20,186*

*Lithuania	*
Average Growth 3.45
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	17,235
HDI 2010 *0,783*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	*24,303*

*Argentina	*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	15,901
HDI 2010 *0,775*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	18,915

*Kuwait* 
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	38,775
HDI 2010 *0,771*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	*47,166*

*Latvia* 
Average Growth 2.85
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	14,504
HDI 2010 *0,769*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	19,904

*Malaysia	*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	14,744
HDI 2010 *0,744*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	19,301

*Mexico* 
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	14,406
HDI 2010 *0,750*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	18,032

*Brazil* 
GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	11,273
HDI 2010 *0,699*
GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	14,626

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...1,754,446,698&s=PPPPC&grp=0&a=&pr.x=37&pr.y=4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

By 2016, and according to the IMF, two additional countries would be reached the USD$20,000 mark: Chile and Lithuania.

Kuwait has already a GDP Per Capita PPP over USD$20,000 but still has to reach the HDI of 0,784.

Chile has grown on average 5,75 % over the past 25 years. Lithuania has grown on average 3.45% over the past 10 years and Latvia at 2,85% over the last decade as well. The crisis of 2008-2010 affected pretty bad Baltic countries just as Hungary and Mexico.

Chile and Lithuania has an HDI of 0,783 and need to reach the 0,784 this year to be considered as developed by the UN.

Does anybody have real facts or better arguments to justify their bets?


----------



## isakres

Motul said:


> And I guess you didn't have any participation in the "stupid fight"? or should i start quoting? :lol:


Of course I havent had any participation in that stipid fight lol.





:angel:


----------



## isakres

Just realized Croatia is still under HDI 0,784 and the USD$20,000 GDP PPP mark.

Add Croatia to the runner ups (Chile, Lithuania, Latvia, etc)


----------



## seems

Sir, please do not regard my opinion as a troll... I beg you not to use Wikipedia as your reference saying that UN defines "a very high human development index" as an indicator for a "developed country".... *please show me any UN report that mentions that*. However, I stand corrected if I'm wrong. 

the most possible report is UNDP Human Development Report, here the 2010 report:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2010_EN_Complete_reprint.pdf






isakres said:


> Facts:
> 
> Target to reach developed estatus:
> HDI : *0,784 *(since the UN considers countries with an IDH of 0,784 as developed).
> 
> GDP Per Capita PPP >*USD$20,000 *(Since Countries considered by the UN as developed under the IDH criteria already have GDP Per Capita PPP above USD$20,000).
> 
> 
> *Chile*
> Average Growth 5.75
> GDP Per Capita PPP 2010 (IMF)	15,040
> HDI 2010 *0,783*
> GDP Per Capita PPP 2016 (IMF est.)	*20,186*


----------



## isakres

¿Facts?


----------



## seems

isakres said:


> ¿Facts?


Sir, sorry to say that there's no point of discussing facts when we don't even know or agree what the definition of a developed country is...We need to agree first on that definition, but I think it's also pointless...who are we defining that? Only for our pleasure? 

I suggest to see it from WB high income economy, UNDP very high HDI, and IMF advanced economy criteria... we can make a list on which countries close to those levels... but do not combine it since even the combination of them, I believe, cannot reflect what a developed country is...


----------



## isakres

^^ There you go Seems, just define your criteria / asumptions and post your opinion and elaborate.

Which next developing country will become developed?

Cheers bud!

kay:


----------



## sixdegrees

seems said:


> yup, you're right, there're electric stairs and elevators in Latin America since decades ago....however, it seems that they're broken, that's why Asian Tigers become developed and you're still frozen in time.... :cheers:
> 
> and careful for what you wish for, your government soon will receive financial aids from China...


Mexico to receive aid from China? for gods sake :lol: you should take care for the inferior life expectancy in China compared to Mexico before offering aid to more developed countries 

having shorter life spans, lower education and income, makes you look like Mexico in the 1980's. 


who lives in the past?


:lol:


----------



## seems

No buddy, I stand corrected, you're right about very high HDI = developed country according to UNDP... 

Then I agree with your definition using HDI and GDP/cap... of course I agree with your "facts"....:cheers:



isakres said:


> ^^ There you go Seems, just define your criteria / asumptions and post your opinion and elaborate.
> 
> Which next developing country will become developed?
> 
> Cheers bud!
> 
> kay:


----------



## seems

sixdegrees said:


> Mexico to receive aid from China? for gods sake :lol: you should take care for the inferior life expectancy in China compared to Mexico before offering aid to more developed countries
> 
> having shorter life spans, lower education and income, makes you look like Mexico in the 1980's.
> 
> 
> who lives in the past?
> 
> 
> :lol:



no need to get offended, even the US needs China to save its economy (while Mexico definitely needs US, thus Mexico indirectly is saved by China).... 

http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2008/11/china-is-now-americas-largest-creditor.html



> *China is now officially the U.S. government's largest foreign creditor* after overtaking Japan, in a development that signals Washington's increasing reliance on Beijing to save its economy.
> *China became the largest foreign holder of U.S. Treasuries, owning $US585 billion ($A897.1 billion) worth *as of September, according to U.S. Treasury Department figures.
> 
> "*China's GDP per capita ranks around 100th in the world but it is actually subsidising the world's richest country*," said Zhang Ming, an economist with the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, a government think-tank in Beijing.


you need to differentiate between welfare level and economic size... giant economic size of China allows its gov't to have a big budget...
that's why they're able to afford to have aircraft carrier, produce gen 4 and 5 jet fighters, becoming a significant financial aids provider to Africa and Asian countries, and buy the largest part of US treasuries despite some of their population are still living in poverty...

now you know who lives in the past...


----------



## sixdegrees

like for what we need aid from China if our economy is growing, is not in danger, our financial system is in order, we have our own and large enough international reserves.. etc etc?

who cares if the US or Europe need chinese aid, we don't 


not bad you wish to look like the savior of Europe or USA; but you're lying yourself, not to us.


----------



## seems

sixdegrees said:


> like for what we need aid from China if our economy is growing, is not in danger, our financial system is in order, we have our own and large enough international reserves.. etc etc?
> 
> who cares if the US or Europe need chinese aid, we don't


You like it or not, as far as I know, Mexico economy depends significantly on the US...



> http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/08/23/Mexicos-recovery-depends-largely-on-US/UPI-60931251001927/
> 
> *Mexico's recovery depends largely on U.S.*
> 
> MEXICO CITY, Aug. 23 (UPI) --
> Mexico's ailing economy is unlikely to begin recovering until the United States overcomes its economic doldrums, experts say.
> That's because Mexico's economy is so dependent on that of the United States.
> 
> About 80 percent of Mexican exports go to the United States, and America's worst economic downturn since the Great Depression has caused a huge decline in purchases of products made in Mexico, Allyson Benton, an analyst with the Eurasia Group consulting firm, told CNN.
> 
> Another contributor to Mexico's economy, U.S. tourism, has declined because of the H1N1 flu outbreak and fears of violence, said Susan Kaufman Purcell, director of the Center for Hemispheric Policy at the University of Miami.



Meanwhile US economy relies on China and Japan during the recent crisis...

the world is strongly connected...


----------



## sixdegrees

then you're not aiding us, you're favoring us indirectly and we owe nothing to you 

is America and Europe who pledge for your aid, not Mexico. 


keep doing so, better for us :lol:


----------



## seems

sixdegrees said:


> then you're not aiding us, you're favoring us indirectly and we owe nothing to you
> 
> is America and Europe who pledge for your aid, not Mexico.
> 
> 
> keep doing so, better for us :lol:


errr I'm not Chinese...

Brazil rapid economic growth is also influenced by huge demands of its raw commodities by China...and Brazil growth in turn affects its neighbors...



> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...he-US-as-Brazils-largest-trading-partner.html
> *China overtakes the US as Brazil's largest trading partner*
> China has become Brazil's most-important trading partner, disrupting a relationship between the United States and the Latin country that stretches back to the 1930s.


the world is more connected than what we previously thought...


----------



## sixdegrees

seems said:


> now you know who lives in the past...


the one of us who is going to live shorter, unhealthier and poorer.

that's the one who lives in the past...


----------



## Motul

^^18 new countries on the list


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Motul said:


> ^^18 new countries on the list


Yeah, mostly microstates...


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

oliver999 said:


> why 2011 HDI china only ranks 101st? i remeber in 2007 china rands 86th


Maybe some countries surpassed China?


----------



## isakres

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> *5 new very high HDI countries!
> 
> Lithuania
> Latvia
> Chile
> Argentina
> Croatia
> Congratulations to these countries!
> *


*

Told ya :tyty:




isakres said:



-Chile
-Lithuania
-Latvia
-Croatia
-Argentina

Click to expand...


F*ck yeah! :smug:*


----------



## isakres

btw, New comers are already surpassing Portugal :O


----------



## snowland

The next year probably Chile and Argentina will surpass Portugal.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

isakres said:


> btw, New comers are already surpassing Portugal :O


What's wrong with Portugal? They seem to struggle a bit in developing further...


----------



## sixdegrees

^^ the european crisis and the recession of several years.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

sixdegrees said:


> ^^ the european crisis and the recession of several years.


They seem to have always been the poorest Western European country and always been in the borderline in just crossing the very high HDI.


----------



## Occit

I'm happy because Venezuela has returned to its original position because the educational data was already fixed!


----------



## isakres

^^Which was the Venezuelean HDI in 2010 and which is in 2011???


----------



## Jonesy55

UK breakdown

Income Index 0.832 (21st)
Health Index 0.949 (21st)
Education index 0.815 (39th)

Overall Index 0.863 (28th)

We need to stop leaving school at 14 to improve it seems.


----------



## corsario albiceleste

seems said:


> I also see a difference between Latin America and Asia is that many poor Asians work outside their countries... you can see many Indians, Pakistanians, Chinese, Filipinos, etc in the US, rich oil middle east, Japan, HK, Taiwan, France, Germany, UK, and even in Latin America and African countries... it contributes to their increasing social economic status and the economy of their country of origin by sending significant remittance...
> 
> Meanwhile, *the poor in Latin American countries stay there, accumulated and their problem become more difficult to solve. *On the contrary, highly educated Latin American people storm US and Western Europe... many of them don't want even look back... so the countries lose middle class that can contribute significantly to their development... that's why it's so difficult for Latin American countries to develop themselves... it's reflected by how difficult their universities compete with US and Western Europe compared to their Asian counterparts, since many of their intellectuals prefer to work in the US and Europe...



LOL, there are like 2 million immigrants from other Latin American countries in Argentina according to the 2010 National Census. 

Today, there are neighborhoods where you can really feel like a foreigner in your own city here... yeah sure people don't emigrate in Latin America... :nuts:

Argentina always was the country in South America where most immigrants from the rest of the region arrived, but the numbers of immigrants in countries like Brasil and Chile are increasing too

There are like a million of Colombians in Venezuela too... actually only 1-2% of the Brazilian and Argentinian population lives abroad, but the percentage rise to 12-20% in countries like Mexico, Colombia, Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay, etc... 





> different when you have your mayor, police, teachers and even your neighbors daily killed by drug lords...it terrorizes you to death!


I've never heard of such thing here. :lol:


----------



## Yen Jcc

isakres said:


> ^^Which was the Venezuelean HDI in 2010 and which is in 2011???


2010: 0,696 / 0,734
2011: 0,735


----------



## isakres

Not bad for the demonized Chavista-Bolivarian Republic.

Ecuador is ranking pretty good as well.


----------



## oliver999

Motul said:


> ^^18 new countries on the list


yeah,thanks.


----------



## Occit

isakres said:


> Not bad for the demonized Chavista-Bolivarian Republic.
> 
> Ecuador is ranking pretty good as well.


The result is *despite* Chavez :yes:


----------



## seems

Chile is interesting, how come is it so developed?


----------



## Motul

seems said:


> Chile is interesting, how come is it so developed?


Good económic policies along low corruption. A formula which other countries on the region are following.


----------



## isakres

Maybe a Chilean could explain the reasons better but I guess is due to the following:

-Critical Reforms applied after the Pinochet Dictatorship back in the 80s.
-Sound Economic Policies
-Responsible and Compromised Governments
-Free Trade Market
-Sustainable Growth for more than 20 years.

Must include the Chilean society by itself. Despite being far from any Powerhouse (Japan, US, Europe) they have the common sense to extract the natural resources they have (Salmon, Wines, Minning, etc) and the common sense to use the Free Markets to reach distant countries with new customers to obtain more earnings (I guess Chilean population is around 20million). And as the more the money they had the more possibilities to improve Education and Health and to Invest in Infraestructure to boost and technify their Industry.

I thinks it is the first country, which is not member of the Commonwealth, to reach Very High Human Development Status in the Southern Hemisphere. Am I Right?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

sebvill said:


> Scandinavia is no paradise. Ask any Scandinavian. And I dont mean stupid things like weather or partying.


Agree, I live in Sweden and you must still work, eat, sleep, wash etc. as in any other country. It just looks cleaner, less rundown, less grittier, and more idyllic because of that the populations are small. Why do you think that Scandinavia is a paradise?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

toroloco said:


> Plus the rate of ~3% is good plus a low and stable inflation Mexico is in a way to become a powerful nation, The Next Big country to be developed is Brazil Just a few years after the United Mexican States.


No not Brazil, Russia is on it's way just right below Mexico.

And I actually think that China will surpass Brazil soon as it grows faster.

Year	* Brazil * China *
1980 * 0,549 * 0.404 * 
1985	* 0,575 * 0.448 * 
1990	* 0,600 * 0.490 * 
1995	* 0,634 * 0.541 * 
2000	* 0,665 * 0.588 * 
2005	* 0,692 * 0.633 * 
2006	* 0,695 * 0.644 * 
2007	* 0,700 * 0.656 * 
2008	* 0,705 * 0.665 * 
2009	* 0,708 * 0.674 * 
2010	* 0,715 * 0.682 * 
2011	* 0,718 * 0.687 * 


*High HDI list*

Countries with large populations in *BOLD*

Uruguay 0,783
Palau 0,782
Romania 0,781
Cuba 0,776
Seychelles 0,773
Bahamas 0,771
Montenegro 0,771
Bulgaria 0,771
Saudi Arabia 0,770
*Mexico* 0,770
Panama 0,768
Serbia 0,766
Antigua and Barbuda 0,764
Malaysia 0,761
Trinidad and Tobago 0,760
Kuwait 0,760
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya 0,760
Belarus 0,756
*Russian Federation* 0,755
Grenada 0,748
Kazakhstan 0,745
Costa Rica 0,744
Albania 0,739
Lebanon 0,739
Saint Kitts and Nevis 0,735
Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of) 0,735
Bosnia and Herzegovina 0,733
Georgia 0,733
Ukraine 0,729
Mauritius 0,728
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 0,728
Jamaica 0,727
Peru 0,725
Dominica 0,724
Saint Lucia 0,723
Ecuador 0,720
*Brazil	* 0,718
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 0,717
Armenia 0,716
Colombia 0,710
*Iran (Islamic Republic of)* 0,707
Oman 0,705
Tonga 0,704
Azerbaijan 0,700
*Turkey* 0,699
Belize 0,699
Tunisia 0,698


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

foxmulder said:


> Not as a whole country but some coastal provinces (which can be seen as sizable countries) of China can be considered developed by ~2030.


Actually i looked on the stats and compared China to some countries like South Korea, China today is where South Korea was in the early 1980s in terms of development. Though it's a large country and there are great gaps inside China. But my prediction is that China as a whole country reaches very high HDI around 2030. Some provinces may not reach very high HDI by then but the country average will I think. All the provinces will reach very high HDI sometime between 2030-2040.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

DarkLite said:


> I see you put Chile in light blue but not Argentina. The Argentine GDP in 2011 is $17,367 while Chile's GDP is $15,834


No, Chile's GDP is $ 13,960 and Argentina's $ 10,640 for 2011. In GDP, Chile would be "green" and in HDI, "light blue", one colour away. So, in this situation, I always chose the "better" colour. Argentina was "green" in HDI and "light green" in GDP per capita. Again, the "better" colour. Brazil, for example, GDP is "green", while the HDI is "yellow". The "mid-colour", "light green", was chosen than.


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

-del-


----------



## sebvill

isakres said:


> Well, thats my opinion and have very good reasons to think like that :naughty:
> 
> After Scandinavia, most of Europe looks like dirt. Anyway, sometimes it could be a bit boring.
> 
> As for the opinion of Scandinavians, well I talked with many of them and think they feel pretty confortable living there (on average), not very enthusiastic, nor they want to run away as many people in the developing world.


Im Swedish. I dont live there but can tell you a little bit about my second country (Peru is my first), was there the last time a month ago. In Sweden there is a general perception that the country has been in decline for the last 20 years, and although nowdays is one of the strongest economies in Europe, the HDI reflect this feeling, in which Sweden has been coming down and down.

Not for nothing Swedish go to Norway to work in shops or bars or in the other hand there are more than 50,000 Swedish living only in Barcelona. Sweden created the best welfare State of the World. But theyve realize that big taxing to Swedish combine with massive immigration has not help the Swedish to get better standards of leaving. The big problem in Sweden and the whole of Scandinavia is resume in one popular saying "if a flower grows to tall, you must cut it". 

In the other hand Norway is rich as heaven thanks to the oil industry. But its expensive as hell also, even for the average Norwegian. And I dont think a country is fully developed if the average person finds it expensive and therefore have to recieve help from the State. Thats trully inneficient. And we are talking about the most developed country in the World. So, humanity has still a long way to go to reach development. Not even counting phsycological issues that affect the population of many developed countries. Im amazed how lonely is life in countries like Sweden or Japan. Dont wonder why they have so high suicide rates. Thats not quality of life at all.


----------



## anak_mm

corsario albiceleste said:


>


wow i'm surprised...on that map Philippines is like an island in Asia(well it is) of dark blue

Women has a lot of say in Politics.. in the Philippines. 
We've had a female President the entire previous decade..until this year
Although we have a male President now.. he won because of his Mom(she was also a president 2 decades ago)


----------



## Motul

^^ that's because of your Latin blood.. Right now there are 3 women presidents in Latam.


----------



## isakres

sebvill said:


> Im Swedish. I dont live there but can tell you a little bit about my second country (Peru is my first), was there the last time a month ago. In Sweden there is a general perception that the country has been in decline for the last 20 years, and although nowdays is one of the strongest economies in Europe, the HDI reflect this feeling, in which Sweden has been coming down and down.


Well its nice to hear an opinion of a non resident Swedish . Im not Swedish, been there several times and didnt find anything different in Swedish people about the general perception of their country than in other countries. Anyway, my maximum staying was just 6 months all over there in my longest trip.

I have found the same feelings of a less powerful nation (country in decline) not only in Scandinavia, but also in the US, some other European countries and even in Latinamerica. Within Scandinavia Ive found Finnish people the less optimistic people about their country. Also found them even "colder" than Dannish, or Swedish. 



sebvill said:


> Not for nothing Swedish go to Norway to work in shops or bars or in the other hand there are more than 50,000 Swedish living only in Barcelona.
> Sweden created the best welfare State of the World. But theyve realize that big taxing to Swedish combine with massive immigration has not help the Swedish to get better standards of leaving. The big problem in Sweden and the whole of Scandinavia is resume in one popular saying "if a flower grows to tall, you must cut it".


Didnt knew migration to such cities as Barcelona was boosted by reasons affecting only to Swedish People. Ive seen larger German or Britt settlements overseas. I know taxes are a main concern up there and certainly have heard some complaints about HealthCare and other Public services......but have always thought that they have already reached upscaled living standards and they have set the bar too high to complain about. I will love to hear the same complaints in the developing world. I mean, I bet most Latins / South Asians would want to complain about paying too much taxes (but have clean, organized cities) or complain about the welfare (im paying welfare for immigrants....but have decent services) rather than I pay no taxes (or even I pay too much taxes) but my cities looks like dirt and have no decent welfare services.




sebvill said:


> In the other hand Norway is rich as heaven thanks to the oil industry. But its expensive as hell also, even for the average Norwegian. And I dont think a country is fully developed if the average person finds it expensive and therefore have to recieve help from the State. Thats trully inneficient. And we are talking about the most developed country in the World. So, humanity has still a long way to go to reach development. Not even counting phsycological issues that affect the population of many developed countries. Im amazed how lonely is life in countries like Sweden or Japan. Dont wonder why they have so high suicide rates. Thats not quality of life at all.


Indeed I found Norway (Oslo) the most expensive place on earth. I think the Country works pretty well and the wages are good enough to have middle class living standards (middle and high middle class). Perhaps is not the most exciting place to live and to make money. If you want risks and a huge bank account, well you better try to find some other place.

I also think Scandinavians (and many Europeans) tend to live isolated lives that could not match with our "Latin" way of life and could turn into an isolated journay resulting in many psychological issues affecting people up there, but traying to be fair, there are a whole lot other things that could affect people in the developing world, starting with loosing your child because you have no access to medical services (im not talking about decent hospitals), having no money (no job, nor opportunity to find one) to growth your children, to crime rates, dictatorships and live with no rights because you are women or belongs to a certain cast or minority.


----------



## Adde

sebvill said:


> Im amazed how lonely is life in countries like Sweden or Japan. Dont wonder why they have so high suicide rates. Thats not quality of life at all.


Eh, I'm swedish and I'm not lonely, and neither are most of the people I know. And the high suicide rates is a myth. Scandinavian suicide rates are perfectly average and within the normal range for Western Europe and North America.

Scandinavians like to complain, but the truth is that we've got it pretty good up here. Our economies are ok, healt care and education are available to everybody, few people live in powerty, our societies are mostly efficient and well run. No place on earth is paradise, but Scandinavia is really good.


----------



## PaulBP

seems said:


> Bravo for Chile then... Isn't Pinochet, though a cruel dictator, the one who established a strong economic foundation on Chile? I kind of read it somewhere but totally forget about it... or may be the opposite...
> 
> Yeah, I also see it interesting as it is geographically located quiet far from the world metropoles...
> 
> Chile can be a good role model not only for other Latin American countries but also Asian and African countries that you can get developed though you're not located near by big economies...


well, chile is pretty much a rare case. they have been good and bad times since so many years (a century or more) they are a very westernized society even when most of them are mixed race people (not fully europeans), chileans see themselves as a fully western country and dont see themselves so close to other latinamericans. if you read chilean history they were strong in the late XIX century. they improve a lot some things, then they were poor again but at least they had some better things than theire income should suggest. in the other hand chile as argentina and uruguay have been always looking more to europe, in the meantime the other latinamericans were allways trying to be like USA. 

the pinochet thing wasnt that important. chile was more developed than latinamerican average way before pinochet. they were broke with allende, but they had good education and a very educated elite.


----------



## PaulBP

argentina and uruguay are very different to chile, but have some things in common like be more europe oriented societies, had a wealthiest past (late XIX century) and been full westernized societies. plus, in the argentine and uruguayan case they are majority white countries, chile had a white minority but still important amount of people. plus some people say that the basque factor was very important to explain chilean development. many of the spaniards that were in chile in the colonial time were basques, with high work ethic. most of the chilean high class is compose by basque people ancestry plus some germans.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
The same thing could be said about Brazil. Full westernized society, doesn't see itself close to other Latin American countries and look much more to Europe than to the US.


----------



## seems

PaulBP said:


> argentina and uruguay are very different to chile, but have some things in common like be more europe oriented societies, had a wealthiest past (late XIX century) and been full westernized societies. plus, in the argentine and uruguayan case they are majority white countries, chile had a white minority but still important amount of people. plus some people say that the basque factor was very important to explain chilean development. many of the spaniards that were in chile in the colonial time were basques, with high work ethic. most of the chilean high class is compose by basque people ancestry plus some germans.


I always have an impression that many Latam countries are closer to Europe, (especially to Latin block of Spain, France, etc) than to the US... 
On the contrary, East Asian countries are closer to the US where you can find many US franchises like Starbuck, KFC, McD, Hard Rock, etc from Tokyo down to Jakarta... I found youngsters in Tokyo or KL are more americanized than those in Paris or Amsterdam, for example... but it might only be my own impression...


----------



## seems

Adde said:


> Eh, I'm swedish and I'm not lonely, and neither are most of the people I know. And the high suicide rates is a myth. Scandinavian suicide rates are perfectly average and within the normal range for Western Europe and North America.
> 
> Scandinavians like to complain, but the truth is that we've got it pretty good up here. Our economies are ok, healt care and education are available to everybody, few people live in powerty, our societies are mostly efficient and well run. No place on earth is paradise, but Scandinavia is really good.


I visited Scandinavian countries several times and found that life there is very good, though I don't envy their winter session...

About Japan and (now) Chinese high suicide rate, I read somewhere (perhaps the Economist) recently that it's more about culture... they tend to kill themselves than kill others... but having living for years in Tokyo years ago, I can say that life in Japan is great!


----------



## isakres

Lol with the arguments, 

In that case Mexico has been frequently blamed to look outside of Latinamerica, whether it is Europe or Northamerica.

Spain was our role model during the Colonial period. 
Austria and France during the Mexican Empire era with Maximilam of Habsburg.
France during the "Porfiriato" Porfirio Díaz.

And recently Mexicans have been blamed of trying to be more Northamerican than Latinamerican (Free Trade / NAFTA era).

This thread is getting even more ridiculous.


----------



## PaulBP

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> The same thing could be said about Brazil. Full westernized society, doesn't see itself close to other Latin American countries and look much more to Europe than to the US.


brazil have the carnaval, the samba music and many non western things. even today many brazilian believe in african spirits like djamanja or another things near of vudu like haiti. chileans dont have that believes neither a death cult like mexicans. chilean people is very rational. i read a study about that. thats why i call it a fully westernized society and not a half westernized society as many latin americans.


----------



## seems

isakres said:


> Lol with the arguments,
> 
> In that case Mexico has been frequently blamed to look outside of Latinamerica, whether it is Europe or Northamerica.
> 
> Spain was our role model during the Colonial period.
> Austria and France during the Mexican Empire era with Maximilam of Habsburg.
> France during the "Porfiriato" Porfirio Díaz.
> 
> And recently Mexicans have been blamed of trying to be more Northamerican than Latinamerican (Free Trade / NAFTA era).
> 
> *This thread is getting even more ridiculous.*


I think it's alright discussing about the impression people have, it may be false like the myth on Scandinavian suicide rate... afterall, it seems that you people have reached concession which developing countries will move into a developed status soon...

so what else then to discuss other than why some countries can be more developed than others? It is the question which has been raised since Adam Smith...

More recent books discuss about it and included some non-economic factors like institution, geography, culture, and religion... Guns, Germs and Steel, for example, attract wide readers...

Americanization (US) is an interesting phenomenon from cultural point of view. The spread of US investment and culture (movies, etc) might have or have not any correlation with a country's development... the Philippines, for example, receiving deep American culture influence yet not the brightest star in ASEAN...but in my opinion, it's good for the US... cultural spread is also a marketing way... East Asian youth are crazy of US franchises because they see those products on every holywood movie...

As for Mexico, I always have an impression that in recent years it's more influenced by the US compared to Europe...geography matters, of course...


----------



## Harrys

...


----------



## Harrys

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Could you be more specific on the gap of development?


cleanlinesses of streets, of public transport...more social disparity...poverty in streets more visible...


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

PaulBP said:


> brazil have the carnaval, the samba music and many non western things. even today many brazilian believe in african spirits like djamanja or another things near of vudu like haiti. chileans dont have that believes neither a death cult like mexicans. chilean people is very rational. i read a study about that. thats why i call it a fully westernized society and not a half westernized society as many latin americans.


Are you for real? Less than 1% of Brazilians follow African cults (the same numbers in the US). Samba, carnaval, and "other things" are European, and since when they represent Brazil as a whole? I myself have never seen a person dancing samba in my entire life. The same is true for the majority of Brazilians. And talking about being rational, do you know how many Irish people believe in gnomes?

You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just keep going about things you know nothing about.


----------



## PaulBP

seems said:


> I always have an impression that many Latam countries are closer to Europe, (especially to Latin block of Spain, France, etc) than to the US...
> On the contrary, East Asian countries are closer to the US where you can find many US franchises like Starbuck, KFC, McD, Hard Rock, etc from Tokyo down to Jakarta... I found youngsters in Tokyo or KL are more americanized than those in Paris or Amsterdam, for example... but it might only be my own impression...


those franchises have been in latin america since many years. all the central american region have allways been called the US backyard. caribbean region central america and mexico. plus the northern part of south america, countries like colombia, ecuador and venezuela are pretty much USA oriented. then you have some countries in the middle like peru, paraguay, bolivia and brazil wich are half oriented to USA and europe, and the countries like chile argentina and uruguay have been the most yank-haters in the world. 

chile is a strange case cause even the right wing used to hate USA culture till the 70s but then in the pinochet regime they promove the american way of life pretty hard, today chile is a mix between american and european inffluence. you can find all those franchises but the people criticize usa a lot. not just in international affairs but related to that culture. its cool to say that hollywood is shit, that the american empire is over, that the people over there is a bunch of fats, that they dont have political conscience, class conscience.


----------



## PaulBP

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Are you for real? Less than 1% of Brazilians follow African cults (the same numbers in the US). Samba, carnaval, and other things are European, and since when they represent Brazil? I myself have never seen a person dancing samba live. The same is true for the majority of Brazilians. And talking about being rational, do you know how many Irish people believe in gnomes?
> 
> You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just keep going about things you know nothing about.


when i was in brazil there were tons of shops of santeria. some people is catholic and in the same time have african spirits believes. like djemandja. i saw death chicken in beaches, roads.


----------



## PaulBP

if some irish believe in little people, that doesnt made brazil more westernized. it made ireland or some rural parts of it less westernized.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Don't they have shops of santería in the United States? I've never seen dead chickens anywhere here. I'm not sure where you've been walking. 

Anyhow, your theory makes no sense at all. The African influence in Brazilian culture is very tiny (probably the Indian influence is much bigger in Chile). The European presence is overwhelming and influenced every aspect of Brazilian culture. Of course, after centuries, the culture starts to develop by itself, in the same way American, Canadian, Latin American, South African (whites), Australian, New Zealander, etc. did, but the matrix has always been European.

And about US and Europe influence over the country, aside pop culture (US influence is felt everywhere), Brazil has always been closer to Europe in almost all the fields. You should keep in mind the fact of you've spend some days in a Brazilian beach don't give you any insight about the country.

P.S. Be sure there're much more people believing in gnomes in Dublin than in the rural Ireland.


----------



## isakres

Lol Maipo. :lol:






seems said:


> I think it's alright discussing about the impression people have, it may be false like the myth on Scandinavian suicide rate... afterall, it seems that you people have reached concession which developing countries will move into a developed status soon...
> 
> so what else then to discuss other than why some countries can be more developed than others? It is the question which has been raised since Adam Smith...
> 
> More recent books discuss about it and included some non-economic factors like institution, geography, culture, and religion... Guns, Germs and Steel, for example, attract wide readers...
> 
> Americanization (US) is an interesting phenomenon from cultural point of view. The spread of US investment and culture (movies, etc) might have or have not any correlation with a country's development... the Philippines, for example, receiving deep American culture influence yet not the brightest star in ASEAN...but in my opinion, it's good for the US... cultural spread is also a marketing way... East Asian youth are crazy of US franchises because they see those products on every holywood movie...
> 
> *As for Mexico, I always have an impression that in recent years it's more influenced by the US compared to Europe...geography matters, of course...*


You have said that, it is just until recent years. After a War that left Mexico without almost half of its territory, the country started to look America more like an enemy than like an ally. Our borders were closed (if not sealed) for anything that sound "American". Our governments sometimes just open the borders and take a look over France and Spain which were the main role models of the ex party in power -the PRI-.

Some mexicans still look at the US with some resentiment. "Pinches gringos"..-I usually hear in some ocassions when nationalism and deep rooted sentiments arise as in Soccer matches againts the US- :crazy2:. Its hard for me to blame them, since almost every single President after the US Mexico War has rooted this nationalism and fed the anti ****** feeling directly or indirectly. Fortunately, the more educated the Mexicans were, the more capacity to understand the new reality of the country.

Mexico started to get closer to the US until the late decades of the past century, mainly because of commercial agreements, but also because of some cultural issues as a result of the migration of millions of Mexicans to the US.

Some stats say there are more than 20 millions of Mexicans (born or descendant of) living in the US alone. This is 1 out of five Mexicans worldwide live in the US, and the "Chicano" population represents the third biggest "spanish speaking economy" after Mexico and Spain.


----------



## seems

Several things remain untouched in this discussion, which are IMHO very important: INEQUALITY and POVERTY... GDP or GNI per capita and HDI of a country are of course provide an average estimation. It doesn't deal with inequality and level of poverty.... Isakres has asked question about Gini, but didn't get any reply...

Why do I think it's important? No need to be economist to understand it, I give my common sense based opinion: whenever I travel around developed countries, one thing which is clear for me: they are middle class societies. Poverty exists but on a very insignificant level. This condition contrasts with developing world. 

So IMHO, a country having very high HDI cannot really be considered a developed one when it still has high degree of inequality and poverty... does that kind of country exist? I don't know, how about Chile?... But I can give you a close example: Malaysia. Malaysia has high HDI (not very high though), but its level of inequality is considered high compared to its neighbors, and you still can find a significant percentage of poor people especially in its southern region of Borneo. This condition contrasts with Japan, for example. In any of Japan region, though its inequality is pretty high, you hardly find poverty. It applies also in Western Europe. We can go to rural areas. Some poverty can be spotted only in few areas of their metropolitan cities. But still their level of poverty isn't as high as in developing world...

Having said that, I argue that the level of inequality and poverty needs to be included to determine whether a country is a developed one or not...
Especially on poverty. Some developed countries like US may have a significant level of inequality, but its level of poverty is insignificant...


----------



## sixdegrees

:lol: :lol: :lol: im laughing so hard of this absolutely funny thread hahaha :lol:


----------



## LADEN

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Are you for real? Less than 1% of Brazilians follow African cults (the same numbers in the US). Samba, carnaval, and "other things" are European, and since when they represent Brazil as a whole? I myself have never seen a person dancing samba in my entire life. The same is true for the majority of Brazilians. And talking about being rational, do you know how many Irish people believe in gnomes?
> 
> You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just keep going about things you know nothing about.


Carnaval is African decent.


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## sebvill

Like the Carnival of Venice?


I think the Brazilian Carnival is a product of a mix of inffluences. Just like almost every festival in Peru. In the highlands mostly every festival is a mix of Spanish and Inca culture. In Lima and the coastal regions (60% of population) we have a wide range of influences in our traditions, Spanish, Italian, African, Chinese, Arab, Inca, etc. Maybe only some tribes in the rainforest remain "pure".
Although i doubt that because the Evangelization process from catholics and protestants during the whole 19th and 20th Century left almost no culture untouched.


----------



## kwong

sixdegrees said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: im laughing so hard of this absolutely funny thread hahaha :lol:


I am laughing harder because I read many silly comments from stupid people like you in this thread...:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::cheers:

Hello! I'm back!:cheers::cheers:


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## kwong

inequality of what? of murders by drug lords? :lol::lol:



seems said:


> Several things remain untouched in this discussion, which are IMHO very important: INEQUALITY and POVERTY... GDP or GNI per capita and HDI of a country are of course provide an average estimation. It doesn't deal with inequality and level of poverty.... Isakres has asked question about Gini, but didn't get any reply...
> 
> Why do I think it's important? No need to be economist to understand it, I give my common sense based opinion: whenever I travel around developed countries, one thing which is clear for me: they are middle class societies. Poverty exists but on a very insignificant level. This condition contrasts with developing world.
> 
> So IMHO, a country having very high HDI cannot really be considered a developed one when it still has high degree of inequality and poverty... does that kind of country exist? I don't know, how about Chile?... But I can give you a close example: Malaysia. Malaysia has high HDI (not very high though), but its level of inequality is considered high compared to its neighbors, and you still can find a significant percentage of poor people especially in its southern region of Borneo. This condition contrasts with Japan, for example. In any of Japan region, though its inequality is pretty high, you hardly find poverty. It applies also in Western Europe. We can go to rural areas. Some poverty can be spotted only in few areas of their metropolitan cities. But still their level of poverty isn't as high as in developing world...
> 
> Having said that, I argue that the level of inequality and poverty needs to be included to determine whether a country is a developed one or not...
> Especially on poverty. Some developed countries like US may have a significant level of inequality, but its level of poverty is insignificant...


----------



## Motul

:stupid:


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

The most westernized country in Southeast Asia is the Philippines. Filipinos are fluent in speaking English language, lots of American & European branded stores / food chains, plus the Fashion trends, layout of commercial buildings, names of person / street, etc... Philippines was also colonized by the US after 333 years from Spain...


----------



## patchay

RioARCHTQTO said:


> The most westernized country in Southeast Asia is the Philippines. Filipinos are fluent in speaking English language, lots of American & European branded stores / food chains, plus the Fashion trends, layout of commercial buildings, names of person / street, etc... Philippines was also colonized by the US after 333 years from Spain...


NO offence, but is being "Westernised" has got to do with becoming a developed nation? Really need some comments on that. 

You may have historical links with the West, a large degree of it, but that doesn't mean other Asian nations do not have any historical links with the West. 

The fact is, in terms of Foreign Investments and Trade between US, EU, non-EU European nations and Australia/NZ, the Philippines is the least amongst major ASEAN economies. I'm guessing that you'll probably find more Western brands/retail names in Bangkok, Singapore, KL and Jakarta than compared to Manila. Same thing you'll probably find more Western corporations in industries in those countries compared to the Philippines. 

As for the new millennium, I think Southeast Asian nations should "Look East" (to countries like Japan, China, SKorea, Taiwan) is more important than "Look West". 

my 2 cents.


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

patchay said:


> NO offence, but is being "Westernised" has got to do with becoming a developed nation? Really need some comments on that.
> 
> You may have historical links with the West, a large degree of it, but that doesn't mean other Asian nations do not have any historical links with the West.
> 
> The fact is, in terms of Foreign Investments and Trade between US, EU, non-EU European nations and Australia/NZ, the Philippines is the least amongst major ASEAN economies. I'm guessing that you'll probably find more Western brands/retail names in Bangkok, Singapore, KL and Jakarta than compared to Manila. Same thing you'll probably find more Western corporations in industries in those countries compared to the Philippines.
> 
> As for the new millennium, I think Southeast Asian nations should "Look East" (to countries like Japan, China, SKorea, Taiwan) is more important than "Look West".
> 
> my 2 cents.


my comments are based primarily in "territorial" and "culture" (which Spain & United States had contributed a lot)  uhm, as far as I know, there are more western corporations in the Philippines than Indonesia...  you'll find them mostly in BPO, Banking, IT & Retail sector.. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_the_Philippines
_____________________________________________________________

Much of the industrial sector is based on processing and assembly operations in the manufacturing of electronics and other high-tech components, *usually from foreign multinational corporations.*

*The ABS used in Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Volvo cars are made in the Philippines.. *

Intel has been in the Philippines for 28 years as a major producer of products including the Pentium 4 processor. *A Texas Instruments plant in Baguio has been operating for 20 years and is the largest producer of DSP chips in the world.* Texas Instruments' Baguio plant produces all the chips used in Nokia cell phones and 80% of chips used in Ericsson cell phones in the world. Until 2005, Toshiba laptops were produced in Santa Rosa, Laguna. Presently the Philippine plant's focus is in the production of hard disk drives. Printer manufacturer *Lexmark* has a factory in Mactan in the Cebu region.

*The majority of the top ten BPO firms of the United States operate in the Philippines.*
BPO facilities are mainly in Metro Manila and Cebu City although other regional areas such as Baguio, Bacolod, Cagayan de Oro, Tacloban, Clark Freeport Zone, Dagupan, Davao City, Dumaguete, Lipa, Iloilo City and CamSur are now being promoted and developed for BPO operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Philippines
_________________________________________________________


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

Well, back on the main topic. The next developing nation/s that is going to be developed (after Chile, Lithuania, etc)...I see *Uruguay*, *Saudi Arabia* & *Malaysia*... Malaysia maybe 8years or less, Saudi Arabia 6years or less and Uruguay as early as 4th.quarter next year... It seems to be hard for other developing countries in Europe since we still feel the presence of European Debt Crisis, etc.


----------



## Nelju

seems said:


> Several things remain untouched in this
> Having said that, I argue that the level of inequality and poverty needs to be included to determine whether a country is a developed one or not...
> Especially on poverty. Some developed countries like US may have a significant level of inequality, but its level of poverty is insignificant...


I would not call 15% an insignificant number. That's more than 40 million americans.


----------



## Nelju

RioARCHTQTO said:


> Well, back on the main topic. The next developing nation/s that is going to be developed (after Chile, Lithuania, etc)...I see *Uruguay*, *Saudi Arabia* & *Malaysia*... Malaysia maybe 8years or less, Saudi Arabia 6years or less and Uruguay as early as 4th.quarter next year...


Saudi Arabia, the country where women do not even have the right to drive. A wonderful example of a developed country :nuts:. Let's not misuse statistics. They can be biased and partial or an excellent tool to understand the reality. For instance, DHI is clearly an incomplete statistic and many are using it to depict a false picture of some countries.


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

^^ their economic performance would make it possible for them to be a developed country..maybe we can consider it......


----------



## sixdegrees

kwong said:


> I am laughing harder because I read many silly comments from stupid people like you in this thread...:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::cheers:
> 
> Hello! I'm back!:cheers::cheers:


wellcome back! we have news for you...











http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index


 :lol:


----------



## patchay

RioARCHTQTO said:


> my comments are based primarily in "territorial" and "culture" (which Spain & United States had contributed a lot)  uhm, as far as I know, there are more western corporations in the Philippines than Indonesia...  you'll find them mostly in BPO, Banking, IT & Retail sector..
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_the_Philippines
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> Much of the industrial sector is based on processing and assembly operations in the manufacturing of electronics and other high-tech components, *usually from foreign multinational corporations.*
> 
> *The ABS used in Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Volvo cars are made in the Philippines.. *
> 
> Intel has been in the Philippines for 28 years as a major producer of products including the Pentium 4 processor. *A Texas Instruments plant in Baguio has been operating for 20 years and is the largest producer of DSP chips in the world.* Texas Instruments' Baguio plant produces all the chips used in Nokia cell phones and 80% of chips used in Ericsson cell phones in the world. Until 2005, Toshiba laptops were produced in Santa Rosa, Laguna. Presently the Philippine plant's focus is in the production of hard disk drives. Printer manufacturer *Lexmark* has a factory in Mactan in the Cebu region.
> 
> *The majority of the top ten BPO firms of the United States operate in the Philippines.*
> BPO facilities are mainly in Metro Manila and Cebu City although other regional areas such as Baguio, Bacolod, Cagayan de Oro, Tacloban, Clark Freeport Zone, Dagupan, Davao City, Dumaguete, Lipa, Iloilo City and CamSur are now being promoted and developed for BPO operations.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Philippines
> _________________________________________________________




Not to argue with you, but all the companies you mentioned also have presence in all other nations including China and Malaysia. :lol: 

FYI, we have been constantly getting over billions of investments from US every year and there are approximately 8,000 global multinationals in Malaysia (Shanghai alone has 13,000 and Singapore has now about 10,000). 

I worked for a large American multinational - the world's largest oilfield services co, and we do not have presence in the Philippines, the only major ASEAN nation we do not have presence. Our business in Indonesia is the largest in ASEAN.


----------



## anak_mm

^^ we dont really have oilfields? lol

but yes...western companies operating in one's country has nothing to do being 'developed'


----------



## patchay

anak_mm said:


> ^^ we dont really have oilfields? lol
> 
> but yes...western companies operating in one's country has nothing to do being 'developed'



Sorry for offtopic, but the Philippines have oilfields, and I mentioned oilfield services which also involves other types of petroleum business segments. 

Our next big market is *India and China *in Asia, and of coz Latin America is big particularly *Brazil and Venezuela*.. not to mention Russia and Europe. But the biggest market is still Middle East.  

Developing countries is where the growth is!!!!!

And most of people in electonics manufacturing, you'll probably know that Intel had their first offshore facility in Penang, Malaysia, and ever since 1972, Intel alone had invested US$40billion in Malaysia and hiring about 10,000 people here. Source: http://www.btimes.com.my/articles/20110827132218/Article (dated 27/8/2011)

Because of Intel, Penang and Selangor States have attracted all others in the value/supply chain including Dell, HP, Motorola, Agilent, AMD, Seagate, Western Digital, Fairchild, Jabil Circuit, Freescale, Texas Instruments, National Instruments, Marvell, Altera, Illinois Tool Works, Sanmina-SCI, Honeywell, Emerson, Tyco, Ingersoll Rand, Applied Materials, Imation, Benchmark Electronics, Flextronics (6 plants), etc and thousands of others in electronics and other industries. Companies like ExxonMobil has been operating in Malaysia since 1893. All Americano, not to mention Europeans, Japanese and Taiwanese.

Countries with significant American investments include Mexico, China, Brazil, Thailand, Panama, Chile, etc.

Michael Kors was in Singapore and Malaysia yesterday for the launch of his new flagship stores. YAY



rizalhakim said:


> http://cutecarry.com/2011/11/03/cutecarry-bersama-michael-kors-di-pavilion-kuala-lumpur/


----------



## anak_mm

^^ well we do.. just my point is our production is quite tiny compare to your country & IND


----------



## mataram

RioARCHTQTO said:


> my comments are based primarily in "territorial" and "culture" (which Spain & United States had contributed a lot)  uhm, as far as I know, there are more western corporations in the Philippines than Indonesia...  you'll find them mostly in BPO, Banking, IT & Retail sector..
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_the_Philippines
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> Much of the industrial sector is based on processing and assembly operations in the manufacturing of electronics and other high-tech components, *usually from foreign multinational corporations.*
> 
> *The ABS used in Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Volvo cars are made in the Philippines.. *
> 
> Intel has been in the Philippines for 28 years as a major producer of products including the Pentium 4 processor. *A Texas Instruments plant in Baguio has been operating for 20 years and is the largest producer of DSP chips in the world.* Texas Instruments' Baguio plant produces all the chips used in Nokia cell phones and 80% of chips used in Ericsson cell phones in the world. Until 2005, Toshiba laptops were produced in Santa Rosa, Laguna. Presently the Philippine plant's focus is in the production of hard disk drives. Printer manufacturer *Lexmark* has a factory in Mactan in the Cebu region.
> 
> *The majority of the top ten BPO firms of the United States operate in the Philippines.*
> BPO facilities are mainly in Metro Manila and Cebu City although other regional areas such as Baguio, Bacolod, Cagayan de Oro, Tacloban, Clark Freeport Zone, Dagupan, Davao City, Dumaguete, Lipa, Iloilo City and CamSur are now being promoted and developed for BPO operations.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Philippines
> _________________________________________________________


If that is the case, then why is the Philippines consistently obtains the smallest amount of FDI than the other ASEAN 5? That tells me exactly the opposite, that western companies find other ASEAN economies much more interesting to invest in that the Philippines.


----------



## PaulBP

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Don't they have shops of santería in the United States? I've never seen dead chickens anywhere here. I'm not sure where you've been walking.
> 
> Anyhow, your theory makes no sense at all. The African influence in Brazilian culture is very tiny (probably the Indian influence is much bigger in Chile). The European presence is overwhelming and influenced every aspect of Brazilian culture. Of course, after centuries, the culture starts to develop by itself, in the same way American, Canadian, Latin American, South African (whites), Australian, New Zealander, etc. did, but the matrix has always been European.
> 
> And about US and Europe influence over the country, aside pop culture (US influence is felt everywhere), Brazil has always been closer to Europe in almost all the fields. You should keep in mind the fact of you've spend some days in a Brazilian beach don't give you any insight about the country.
> 
> P.S. Be sure there're much more people believing in gnomes in Dublin than in the rural Ireland.


indigenous cultural inffluence in chile is little, african believes in brazil are huge. thats not related just with races but culture. many white or mixed race in brazil are not westernized but maybe they believe that they are. even feijoada reminds me african food. thats not bad man, just accept it


----------



## Motul

All latin America is westernized except for the indegenous populations (less than 5% in most cases)..


----------



## LADEN

What do you mean by westernized?


----------



## PaulBP

Motul said:


> All latin America is westernized except for the indegenous populations (less than 5% in most cases)..


there are many african inffluence in many countries or regions. example: choco in your country. that doesnt mean that all your country is africanized, but at least dont forget the african and indigenous inffluence


----------



## Motul

LADEN said:


> What do you mean by westernized?



Music tastes, lifestyle, aspirations, ideology, etc etc... Blacks are westernized too, thats for the fellow who is saying Brazil isn't westernized because of blacks (?).. only a minority of them practice those african beliefs (which in most cases are hybrids of african and western beliefs)..

Latin America was born western, but all in all.. the whole world is pretty much becoming westernized.. sadly, because it involves loss of traditions in many cases. Fast food replacing local food joints, and Walmart's abolishing local business, for example.. hno:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

PaulBP said:


> indigenous cultural inffluence in chile is little, african believes in brazil are huge. thats not related just with races but culture. many white or mixed race in brazil are not westernized but maybe they believe that they are. even feijoada reminds me african food. thats not bad man, just accept it


Accept what? The stupidity of your posts and your absolutely lack of knowledge and common sense? What's your credentials to talk about Brazilian culture with such authority, actually lecturing Brazilians about their own culture? Do have any PhD in the area? And you got wrong again: feijoada is also European.

It's a shame the thread is being ruined with such nonsense.


----------



## Leandrix

Mostly of Latin American countries have strong influences of Catholic Church and protestant religions. THAT is Western Culture, not chinese people eating at Mc Donald's o indians drinking Pepsi...

Very sad for me, I'm agnostic.


----------



## -Corey-

That's part of their history and no one can deny that.


----------



## fredrich85

Here's mine

NORTH AMERICA:

Mexico
Costa Rica

SOUTH AMERICA:
Venezuela
Peru
Chile
Argentina
Brazil
Uruguay

EUROPE:
Croatia

AFRICA
South Africa (SAR)

ASIA:
China
India
Saudi Arabia
Thailand
Malaysia
Philippines
Turkey
Vietnam
Indonesia


----------



## -Corey-

And what are the reasons? U just like their names or you've been there?


----------



## fredrich85

Income wise (per capita). All countries I have mentioned are showing considerable GDR growth for the past few years.


----------



## -Corey-

I would include Panama on North America and Uruguay (on SA).


----------



## PaulBP

chile dont have such big american investment. but in the other way there are massive investment of australian, southafrican an canadian minning companies plus spaniard services companies and some investment coming from USA, france, germany. in the other way chile is a big investor in all theire neighbours like peru bolivia and argentina.


----------



## Motul

In my opinion.. Countries reaching VERY HIGH HDI and 20,000 per capita:

Latin America (In order):

Chile (2016)
Argentina (2017)
Uruguay (2017)
Mexico (2020)
Panama (2020)
Costa Rica (2022)
Brazil (2023)
Colombia (2024)
Peru (2025)
Ecuador (2026)

(by 2030 most of Latin America will be developed)

Asia:

Malaysia (2020)
Thailand (2023)
Turkey (2025)
China (2030)
India (2040)
Vietman (2045)

(by 2050 most of Asia will be developed).


----------



## PaulBP

in my opinion:

chile (2015)
argentina (2018)
uruguay (2018)
Panama (2019)
Mexico (2022)
Peru (2024)
Brasil (2025)
Colombia (2026)
Costa Rica (2026)
Bolivia (2040)
Nicaragua (2050)
Haiti (2150)

asia 
Malaysia (2018)
Turkey (2022)
Thailand (2024)
China (2028)
Vietnam (2030)
Philipines (2040)
Indonesia (2050)
India (2070)
Bangladesh (2110)


----------



## -Corey-

Haiti :hahano:


----------



## Motul

Oh, and Cuba 2020


----------



## -Corey-

i doubt it


----------



## Motul

All depends on the system changing.. Once it does, it's a matter of 5 years for the country to be transformed. Social standards are already on par with developed nations.


----------



## pesto

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Are you for real? Less than 1% of Brazilians follow African cults (the same numbers in the US). Samba, carnaval, and "other things" are European, and since when they represent Brazil as a whole? I myself have never seen a person dancing samba in my entire life. The same is true for the majority of Brazilians. And talking about being rational, do you know how many Irish people believe in gnomes?
> 
> You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just keep going about things you know nothing about.


I would guess that belief systems (Christian, voodoo, whatever) are irrelevant to the development of a country. In general, belief systems can be (and regularly are) modified to morally justify economic activity or lack of it. What is Christianity, after all, but another cult? Not particularly a sign of rationality or industry.


----------



## fredrich85

-Corey- said:


> I would include Panama on North America and Uruguay (on SA).


 Yeah, I'm considering Panama,. lets see in two years time...


----------



## isakres

fredrich85 said:


> Here's mine
> 
> NORTH AMERICA:
> 
> Mexico
> Costa Rica
> 
> SOUTH AMERICA:
> Venezuela
> Peru
> Chile
> Argentina
> Brazil
> Uruguay
> 
> EUROPE:
> Croatia
> 
> AFRICA
> South Africa (SAR)
> 
> ASIA:
> China
> India
> Saudi Arabia
> Thailand
> Malaysia
> Philippines
> Turkey
> Vietnam
> Indonesia


It seems many people have forgotten Kasajstan on their bets.


----------



## poponoso

Motul said:


> In my opinion.. Countries reaching VERY HIGH HDI and 20,000 per capita:
> 
> Latin America (In order):
> 
> Chile (2016)
> Argentina (2017)
> Uruguay (2017)
> Mexico (2020)
> Panama (2020)
> Costa Rica (2022)
> Brazil (2023)
> Colombia (2024)
> Peru (2025)
> Ecuador (2026)
> 
> (by 2030 most of Latin America will be developed)
> 
> Asia:
> 
> Malaysia (2020)
> Thailand (2023)
> Turkey (2025)
> China (2030)
> India (2040)
> Vietman (2045)
> 
> (by 2050 most of Asia will be developed).



*Nevertheless, according to the latest data, Argentina has already a higher income than Chile, and if the tendency continues this way, will reach the 20K per capita goal in 2014/15... 
*


----------



## Motul

Well, while I understand that, I also know that Argentina's situation is not precisely the most stable one, whereas Chile is quite solid. This is what makes me think that Chile will reach development first, then Argentina.. And possible even if Argentina has a new crisis (not completely far off), a few other countries might reach it first (Uruguay, Panama).

Having the 3rd highest inflation on Earth after Venezuela and Congo, is simply not a sustainable situation.


----------



## Erran

PaulBP said:


> in my opinion:
> asia
> Malaysia (2018)
> Turkey (2022)
> Thailand (2024)
> China (2028)
> Vietnam (2030)
> Philipines (2040)
> Indonesia (2050)
> India (2070)
> Bangladesh (2110)


Don't wanna argue, just state my curiosity. 

I don't know why most people put/predict Indonesia will grow slower and become developed later than Philippines and Vietnam.
While in fact, Indonesia is currently growing faster, 1st half this year it grew (6.5%), compared to Vietnam (5.6%), and The Philippines (4%), not to forget Indo's GDP percapita is (currently) the highest too. 
In the other hand, Birth rate in Indonesia is oppositely, the smallest compared to both Vietnam and the Philippines.


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

In *Northeast* and *Southeast* Asia, these countries maybe developed in the year:

*Malaysia* (0.761) - on or before 2020
*China* (0.687) - 2022
*Thailand* (0.682) - 2025
*Mongolia* (0.653) - 2030
*Philippines* (0.644) - 2030
*Indonesia* (0.617) - 2030
*Vietnam* (0.593) - 2030
*Laos* (0.524) - on or before 2050
*Cambodia* (0.523) - on or before 2050

^^ with their economies growing 4.5 to 8% annually, it's possible...


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

Erran said:


> Don't wanna argue, just state my curiosity.
> 
> I don't know why most people put/predict Indonesia will grow slower and become developed later than Philippines and Vietnam.
> While in fact, Indonesia is currently growing faster, 1st half this year it grew (6.5%), compared to Vietnam (5.6%), and The Philippines (4%), not to forget Indo's GDP percapita is (currently) the highest too.
> In the other hand, Birth rate in Indonesia is oppositely, the smallest compared to both Vietnam and the Philippines.


in my own opinion, Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam would likely be developed as early as 2030  Philippines has a higher hdi compared to Indonesia and Vietnam these days, but considering Indonesia and Vietnam's economies growing faster than the Philippines, and Quality Of Life in Philippines is almost on par with Thailand and Indonesia and higher than China and Vietnam, these three countries would likely be developed as early as 2030.


----------



## Motul

*Latin America HDI average anual change 2000-2011 (percentage):*


Colombia (2024) *0,77*
Brazil (2023) *0, 69*
Ecuador (2026) *0, 69*
Peru (2025) *0, 67*
Chile (2016) *0, 65*
Mexico (2020) *0, 64*
Panama (2020) *0, 62*
Argentina (2017) *0, 57*
Uruguay (2017) *0, 56*
Costa Rica (2022) *0, 51*


Asia:

India (2040) *1, 56*
China (2030) *1, 43*
Vietman (2045) *1, 06*
Turkey (2025) *0, 90*
Thailand (2023) *0, 78 *
Malaysia (2020) *0, 69*
Phillipines (2050) *0, 62*


----------



## BringMe

^^ Source?


----------



## Motul

BringMe said:


> ^^ Source?


http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_ES_Complete.pdf


----------



## BringMe

^^ Thanks!


----------



## oliver999

will any developed country fall into developing countries group in future?


----------



## Motul

Greece..


----------



## Name user 1

oliver999 said:


> will any developed country fall into developing countries group in future?


I doubt - unless war occurs or very severe major unrest among civil population (twice as severe as in Greece right now)


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

oliver999 said:


> will any developed country fall into developing countries group in future?


is it possible when a "developed" country/s underperformed or fall into crisis for more than a year will make their status "developing"? well if yes, i see *Greece* and *Portugal*. With Greece having a whooping sovereign debt crisis and Portugal maybe following Greece with its second bailout..
And that will happen if EU's Emergency Measures & Reforms FAILED.


----------



## castermaild55

The Global Gender Gap 
Report 2011: Rankings and Scores

*Japan was honored to get #98^^*
if this is not, What would happen. ?

Japan 98 0.6514 97 94 0.6524 101 0.6447 98 0.6434 91 0.6455 80 0.6447
Kenya 99 Belize 100 
Maldives 101 Cambodia 102 
United Arab Emirates 103 
Suriname 104 Kuwait 105 
Zambia 106 Korea, Rep. 
Tunisia 108 Fiji 109 
Bahrain Qatar 111 
Guatemala 112 India 113 
Mauritania 114 Burkina Faso 115 
Ethiopia 116 Jordan 117
Lebanon 118 Cameroon 119 
Nigeria 120 Algeria 121 
Turkey 122 Egypt 123 
Syria 124 Iran, Islamic Rep. 125 
Nepal 126 Oman 127
Benin 128 Morocco 129 
Côte d’Ivoire 130 Saudi Arabia 131 
Mali 132 6Pakistan 133 Chad 134 


http://www.weforum.org/issues/global-gender-gap
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GGGR11/GGGR11_Rankings-Scores.pdf

I think Japanese men were forced to work by women

*what does "westernaized" mean....*
here
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1377400
Luís Fróis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luís_Fróis


----------



## sixdegrees

Greece and Portugal are candidates.


----------



## -Corey-

And now Chile and Argentina too . They're vulnerable.


----------



## Motul

Chile is mighty and strong.. Argentina on the other hand..


----------



## -Corey-

I know, but they're like on the verge of being developed to developing..


----------



## RioARCHTQTO

*Croatia* too... since the change compared to their hdi rank between 2010-2011 is negative(1) point...


----------



## castermaild55

RioARCHTQTO said:


> is it possible when a "developed" country/s underperformed or fall into crisis for more than a year will make their status "developing"? well if yes, i see *Greece* and *Portugal*. With Greece having a whooping sovereign debt crisis and Portugal maybe following Greece with its second bailout..
> And that will happen if EU's Emergency Measures & Reforms FAILED.




Just my thought...

The greatest reason that the difference of the competitive power of Germany and other EU expands....
It is because its common currency(euro) is the same as Germany. 


The outstanding productivity, Germany with innovation power would never lose in the same market of inefficient economic structure. 

It is Germany which has continued fishing in troubled waters since 1999 which was able to do the Euro common market. And Greece has continued to be a sacrifice.
as for Germany, If a Euro common market will be maintained from now on, a sacrifice will increase more than the benefit of fishing in troubled waters. 
as for national interest of Germany.. "If business is lost from that, it will throw away." 
Probably, it will be better to think that there is no Euro organization.


U.S. Faces Much Worse 'Japanization'
http://article.wn.com/view/2011/11/...ults&template=cheetah_financialnews/index.txt

Japan is a super developed country of the new age
Japan adapted from the 1990 ahead of all developed countries in the new "non-growth times"^^


----------



## Brusmaw

Motul said:


> Music tastes, lifestyle, aspirations, ideology, etc etc... Blacks are westernized too, thats for the fellow who is saying Brazil isn't westernized because of blacks (?).. only a minority of them practice those african beliefs (which in most cases are hybrids of african and western beliefs)..
> 
> Latin America was born western, but all in all.. the whole world is pretty much becoming westernized.. sadly, because it involves loss of traditions in many cases. Fast food replacing local food joints, and Walmart's abolishing local business, for example.. hno:


You are mixing up urbanisation and industrialization with westernisation. Just because the Western world was first to urbanisation and industrialization does not mean that the huge social changes that occur during such a transformation of society is westernisation.


----------



## Brusmaw

*Mauritius* and *China* will probably be the first to reach developed status. Lebanon is the wild horse.


----------



## sebvill

castermaild55 said:


> Japan is a super developed country of the new age
> Japan adapted from the 1990 ahead of all developed countries in the new "non-growth times"^^


:lol: you are probably right.


----------



## Nelju

oliver999 said:


> will any developed country fall into developing countries group in future?


Spain. They are another third world country right now. Unemployment is very high (more than 20%) and if you scratch the surface Spain has a lot of problems. In this decade it is very likely they will have negative or zero economic growth and the unemployment rate will stay high.


----------



## fredrich85

poponoso said:


> *Nevertheless, according to the latest data, Argentina has already a higher income than Chile, and if the tendency continues this way, will reach the 20K per capita goal in 2014/15...
> *


Nice to know this. I like the economic policy of Argentina.


----------



## Motul

fredrich85 said:


> I like the economic policy of Argentina.



:lol: trust me, that's because you dont know it well enough.. :rofl:


----------



## -Corey-

Moncaltor said:


> Spain. They are another third world country right now. Unemployment is very high (more than 20%) and if you scratch the surface Spain has a lot of problems. In this decade it is very likely they will have negative or zero economic growth and the unemployment rate will stay high.


:|


----------



## pesto

RioARCHTQTO said:


> is it possible when a "developed" country/s underperformed or fall into crisis for more than a year will make their status "developing"? well if yes, i see *Greece* and *Portugal*. With Greece having a whooping sovereign debt crisis and Portugal maybe following Greece with its second bailout..
> And that will happen if EU's Emergency Measures & Reforms FAILED.


This goes to my comment some pages back that it is possible for some "developing" countries to pretend to be developed countries by institutional means (govt. guaranteed employment funded by borrowing, currency manipulation, forced labor, etc.). But they eventually collapse.

It may be useful to do as many economic models do, and focus on the entrepreneurial and legal side to determine which economies are modern and progressive and which are copycats or about to collapse under debt or popular unrest.


----------



## pesto

Moncaltor said:


> Spain. They are another third world country right now. Unemployment is very high (more than 20%) and if you scratch the surface Spain has a lot of problems. In this decade it is very likely they will have negative or zero economic growth and the unemployment rate will stay high.


Spain is an interesting case, because some people still fail to recognized that it is borderline between developed and developing. It gave the impression that it was a "permanent growth" economy by having a condo boom financed by (now) largely worthless debt.

But there were problems compared to most of the EU: Spain was exempted from EU rules on agriculture and wages, and from tax rules since compliance was so poor; municipal govt. was corrupt and inefficient; auditing standards were lax; roads and utilities very poor in the rural areas; cars and electric appliances ownership very low in rural areas, etc.)

This is not to say that Spain has not developed in the last 30 years; it certainly has. But much of it was unsustainable, not self-sustaining.


----------



## snowland

Originally Posted by Moncaltor 
Spain. They are another third world country right now

WHAT? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Spain is waaaaaaaay more developed than Greece and Portugal. It's between France/Belgium and Italy. Yup, they've got problems nowadays, but their country's still a very rich country.


----------



## fredrich85

Motul said:


> :lol: trust me, that's because you dont know it well enough.. :rofl:


Well I have read so much article abour Arg. I like Kircher, honestly. Anyway, she will not be re elected if she's not that good.


----------



## sixdegrees

she was reelected...

btw will be very interesting to watch all of this countries at the borderline between developed and undeveloped status..


----------



## Motul

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> You should be placed in a museum for the decrepit and criminal ideologies. Anyhow, could you explain to us why your dear president tried to close the biggest newspaper in Argentina? Do you think is it normal in a civilized society? Do you have an idea how is it perceived around the globe?


Furthermore, why did the government start fining the private firms that calculate inflation? Something to hide/be afraid of? Sounds like censorship to me...


----------



## isakres

Brusmaw said:


> The doom of Argentina was predicted every year since 2002, and decades of hell was waiting Argentina. These people dont have credibility. These are the same people who talk about the wonders of the deregulation and neo-liberal policies of the US, the country that has seen a paltry 1.2% average growth rate since 2005. Slow growth, increased inequality, more unstable financial system and Wall street in control of whole countries through financial terrorism, is the result and also the goal of that policy, not increased welfare for all. And it has succeeded brilliantly.
> 
> Argentina's currency is much weaker than Chile's and Brazil's currency and both of these are witnessing Dutch disease symptoms. Having a very strong currency is far from "sustainable" either.


Ok, Im not predicting the doom of ARgentina (nor i want it either) but how on earth do you guys think Argentina´s growth can be sustainable on the long run if it keeps the current economic policies?


----------



## Antonio227

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Blah, blah, blah [1]





Motul said:


> Blah, blah, blah [2]





Príncipe said:


> Blah, blah, blah [3]


:cheers:

:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## castermaild55

sebvill said:


> :lol: you are probably right.


When one more television, refrigerator, and car become unnecessary at the average home of advanced nations, the philosophy of "luxury is a virtue" collapses. 
The capitalism age is going to accomplish the end. 
Japan attained 16% of economic growth in the income-doubling policy in the 1970s. 
It was the growth by which quality (national income) and quantity (economic magnitude) suited, and it was accompanied. 
Now, it is growth of only the scale (quantity) on which income (quality) does not follow the growth of a newly emerging country including China. 

It became impossible to already expect the growth which was able to balance quality and quantity. 

Although a car is not needed any longer, if it is a fuel-efficient pollution-free automobile, I want　it. 
You may buy it, if controllable from outside of house, although neither a refrigerator nor a washing machine is needed. 

Since families' all the members have television, it is already unnecessary. 
however, Interactive(by mutual communication) If there are some which can do conversation watching the same program, I would like to buy it. 
Consumers came to ask only for the quality instead of quantity in japan
It is the change from a thing to importance of mind 

The European valid method is the dismantling of the euro system and the dismantling of EU

next, Each EU country cannot but devote in high quality, and an innovation by themselves in non-growth times.

The growth principle led by the West is finished. 

27th Oct 2011 was the day


----------



## Príncipe

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Don't they have shops of santería in the United States? *I've never seen dead chickens anywhere here. I'm not sure where you've been walking.*
> 
> *Anyhow, your theory makes no sense at all. The African influence in Brazilian culture is very tiny (probably the Indian influence is much bigger in Chile). The European presence is overwhelming and influenced every aspect of Brazilian culture.* Of course, after centuries, the culture starts to develop by itself, in the same way American, Canadian, Latin American, South African (whites), Australian, New Zealander, etc. did, but the matrix has always been European.
> 
> And about US and Europe influence over the country, aside pop culture (US influence is felt everywhere), Brazil has always been closer to Europe in almost all the fields. You should keep in mind the fact of you've spend some days in a Brazilian beach don't give you any insight about the country.
> 
> P.S. Be sure there're much more people believing in gnomes in Dublin than in the rural Ireland.


Err...I have COUNTLESS times witnessed 'dead chickens' as the result of santeria type of rituals in my hometown in Rio Grande do Sul state. And here in the southern areas of Brazil the African ancestry is not that proeminent as it is in Northeast states , specially Bahia...do I need to post pics here of how massive are for example the Yemanjá day demonstrations over there, or even here in Rio Grande do Sul state ? African culture in Brazil is very present and its fairly obvious and just because you have never witnessed those doesn't make your statement truth. 

By the way, if you have never watched a Brazilian dancing the 'samba' I imagine you have never turned on the TV during Carnival...


----------



## Príncipe

isakres said:


> Ok, Im not predicting the doom of ARgentina (nor i want it either) but how on earth do you guys think Argentina´s growth can be sustainable on the long run if it keeps the current economic policies?


As long as the commodities are still high priced as it has been for the last , let's say, 8 years, I believe Latin america in general will growth, even Argentina and their messy economic politics. In their case, specially soy beans.

Either way I expect the best for this country that has suffered a lot in the second half of the 20th century and during the beginning of the 21th one. kay:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Príncipe said:


> Err...I have COUNTLESS times witnessed 'dead chickens' as the result of santeria type of rituals in my hometown in Rio Grande do Sul state. And here in the southern areas of Brazil the African ancestry is not that proeminent as it is in Northeast states , specially Bahia...do I need to post pics here of how massive are for example the Yemanjá day demonstrations over there, or even here in Rio Grande do Sul state ? African culture in Brazil is very present and its fairly obvious and just because you have never witnessed those doesn't make your statement truth.
> 
> By the way, if you have never watched a Brazilian dancing the 'samba' I imagine you have never turned on the TV during Carnival...


In Rio Grande do Sul the number of Black people is actually quite high. Close to 10% (in Paraná and Santa Catarina is between 2-3%). But that doesn't invalidate my point: Brazilian mainly culture is heavily European. The other influences are very marginal and are far from the mainstream. And of course, the presence of African religions doesn't mean Brazilian are not western. Even the Black people who belong to those religions (a small %) are westernized. Brazilians always loved to romanticize their African heritage (for positive or negative purposes) and as result the general idea is the African influence is much bigger than it actually is.

About samba, I obviously meant live. Samba is part of Brazilian reality as much as lederhosen to Germany's.



Antonio227 said:


> :cheers:
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Brusmaw

Príncipe said:


> As long as the commodities are still high priced as it has been for the last , let's say, 8 years, I believe Latin america in general will growth, even Argentina and their messy economic politics. In their case, specially soy beans.
> 
> Either way I expect the best for this country that has suffered a lot in the second half of the 20th century and during the beginning of the 21th one. kay:


Interestingly, even though commodity prices have helped growth across South America, Argentina has a far higher economic growth rate than the South American average.


----------



## Antonio227

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> In Rio Grande do Sul the number of Black people is actually quite high. Close to 10% (in Paraná and Santa Catarina is between 2-3%). But that doesn't invalidate my point: Brazilian mainly culture is heavily European. The other influences are very marginal and are far from the mainstream. And of course, the presence of African religions doesn't mean Brazilian are not western. Even the Black people who belong to those religions (a small %) are westernized.
> 
> About samba, I obviously meant live. And samba is part of Brazilian reality as much as lederhosen to German's.


Oh God, not again...and now, the racialist thing. What´s up with you, Brazilians?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Run, Yuri, run.

The Evil Commies are coming.

And they are looking for you. oke:

:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Antonio227 said:


> Oh God, not again...and now, the racialist thing. What´s up with you, Brazilians?
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Run, Yuri, run.
> 
> The Evil Commies are coming.
> 
> And they are looking for you. oke:
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:


Ah, he decided to talk...

Racialist?!?!?! What is racialist about my comment? 

And "what's up with Brazilians"? What's the most common nickname for Brazilians in South America? Wouldn't it be _macaquitos_ (little monkeys in Spanish) as reference to the Black presence in Brazil? Who are the racialists now? Or even better: who are the racists?

P.S. I've never understood those jokes like "the evil commies are coming". As the nazis, they actually came and left tens of millions cadavers behind.


----------



## Príncipe

Brazil is just a huge mix of cultures and both the European and African ones are by far the most relevant. I guess you should leave your most likely high class surroundings and take a look at real Brazil. If you go to a poor neighbourhood by Carnival time they'll probably very excited to dance the samba somewhere, no matter if it's a Carnival parade or a special Carnival party at some club. I believe that in Paraná state things are different (I heard once that in Curitiba there are not Carnival parades as the one in Rio, Sao Paulo or Porto Alegre) but with all due respect, Paraná does not represent the real Brazil. 

And I disagree that we are more into Europe than US, to me the influence of the big north american country over here is by far more representative than in Europe, we surely lack the European culture that is much more present in places like Argentina and uruguay, and that's why many Brazilian tourists go to these countries since its a cheaper way to get an European feel nearby.


----------



## Antonio227

Yuri S Andrade said:


> What's the most common nickname for Brazilians in South America?


I dunno. Sonofabitchs maybe? :lol::lol::lol:



Yuri S Andrade said:


> Ah, he decided to talk...
> 
> Racialist?!?!?! What is racialist about my comment?
> 
> And "what's up with Brazilians"? What's the most common nickname for Brazilians in South America? Wouldn't it be _macaquitos_ (little monkeys in Spanish) as reference to the Black presence in Brazil? Who are the racialists now? Or even better: who are the racists?
> 
> P.S. I've never understood those jokes like "the evil commies are coming". As the nazis, they actually came and left tens of millions cadavers behind.


With all due respect, Yuri...Get out of your bubble. At least once in your life.


----------



## Príncipe

Brusmaw said:


> Interestingly, even though commodity prices have helped growth across South America, Argentina has a far higher economic growth rate than the South American average.


That's easy to explain since they certainly suffered the worst economic crisis of any Latin america country in recent history. In 2002 alone their GDP decresased by 10 % , and even before 2002 they were experimenting GDP decreases for like three or four years. So, literally, they came from a hole and had a lot to do in terms of growth. Nowadays Argentina is growing still fast, but other countries like Paraguay,Peru and I believe Chile are growing at higher rates.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Príncipe said:


> Brazil is just a huge mix of cultures and both the European and African ones are by far the most relevant. I guess you should leave your most likely high class surroundings and take a look at real Brazil. If you go to a poor neighbourhood by Carnival time they'll probably very excited to dance the samba somewhere, no matter if it's a Carnival parade or a special Carnival party at some club. I believe that in Paraná state things are different (I heard once that in Curitiba there are not Carnival parades as the one in Rio, Sao Paulo or Porto Alegre) but with all due respect, Paraná does not represent the real Brazil.
> 
> And I disagree that we are more into Europe than US, to me the influence of the big north american country over here is by far more representative than in Europe, we surely lack the European culture that is much more present in places like Argentina and uruguay, and that's why many Brazilian tourists go to these countries since its a cheaper way to get an European feel nearby.


Brazilians are 45% White, 45% Mixed, 8% Black. The thing is the European heritage among mixed is as high as 70% average. Among Blacks, as high as 40%. And that is reflected in the overall cultural habits. Brazilians are much more exposed to Europeans than anything else. So it's highly an overstatement to suggest Europeans and Africans have the same impact in Brazilian culture. That kind of idea has everything to do with the romanticization of African culture. And the fact of a person being Black doesn't mean he/she is more "African" than "Western". The same is true for more than 1 million Japanese living in São Paulo and Paraná states. They are westerners. Brazil was able to forge a single Brazilian culture (with regional differences) and this culture is Western. 

About carnaval (full-European party), I don't have nothing against (or for) it. It's just not part of my reality and of the people I know. And of course, I was talking about Brazil, not about Paraná. Here, of course, the African influence is non-existent.

And over US vs. Europe influences, Brazilian academia, culture, economy, industry have always been much more influenced by Europe, than by the US. I guess that's true for many Latin American countries. The US influence around here is the same that exists everywhere, even over Europe. There's nothing special about it.


----------



## Motul

Those countries you mention aren't necessarily growing faster than argentina, but they are growing at more REAL and sustainable rates.. Peru 7% with 3% inflation, for example.


----------



## Brusmaw

Príncipe said:


> That's easy to explain since they certainly suffered the worst economic crisis of any Latin america country in recent history. In 2002 alone their GDP decresased by 10 % , and even before 2002 they were experimenting GDP decreases for like three or four years. So, literally, they came from a hole and had a lot to do in terms of growth. Nowadays Argentina is growing still fast, but other countries like Paraguay,Peru and I believe Chile are growing at higher rates.


Argentina had already recovered the lost ground from the recession years by 2005. However the boom since has been far higher than the SA average. For 2011, Argentine growth is expected to be around 8%, higher than Chile, Peru and Brazil.


----------



## Brusmaw

Motul said:


> Those countries you mention aren't necessarily growing faster than argentina, but they are growing at more REAL and sustainable rates.. Peru 7% with 3% inflation, for example.


Peru is heavily dependent on mining business from foreign companies though. These companies dont produce many jobs and they repatriate their profits from Peru.


----------



## Príncipe

Yuri, Carnival might be an 'European party' but samba certanly is not an European dance by any means...


----------



## Príncipe

Motul said:


> Those countries you mention aren't necessarily growing faster than argentina, but they are growing at more REAL and sustainable rates.. Peru 7% with 3% inflation, for example.


Paraguay is increasing by 15 % in 2011 , I believe no other Latin American country comes even close...


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Príncipe said:


> Yuri, Carnival might be an 'European party' but samba certanly is not an European dance by any means...


But what's samba has to do with Brazil? Better yet, what does it have to do of the fact Brazil is or not part of West? To make it clear: this off-topic subject is came out as result of a forumer statement few pages ago suggesting Chile was some how part of Western World unlike the rest of Latin America. In short: Brazil IS part of Western World and that has nothing to do with this thread.

P.S. And yes, samba has an HUGE amount of European influence...


----------



## Motul

Horvatia=Croatia? Russia doubles its income .. Argentina seems way off.


----------



## snowland

Impressive the Russian forecast.

By the way, why people still insist on putting the nominal GDP per capita? 

Argentina is about 17.000 dls by PPP GDP per capita.


----------



## snowland

_From The Economist _

*Cristina the alchemist
Argentina is trying to build a scientific establishment*

Nov 5th 2011 | buenos aires | from the print edition








SOUTH AFRICA is not the only middle-income country which aspires to join the world’s scientific powers (see article). Argentina would like to as well. The place is proud of its three Nobel science prizes—the largest haul of any Latin American nation—even if the most recent was awarded in 1984. But many researchers fled in the 1990s, when budgets were slashed. Now the government is trying to attract them back, and to encourage younger talent to consider a scientific career.
When Néstor Kirchner, the predecessor and late husband of the current president, Cristina Fernández, took office in 2003, Argentina was spending just 0.41% of its GDP on research and development (R&D). Now, that figure is 0.64%. (Brazil, by comparison, spent 0.95% in 2003 and 1.18% in 2009.) Kirchner raised researchers’ salaries, launched a scheme to repatriate departed scientists and gave tax breaks to software companies. Ms Fernández followed suit by creating a science ministry and putting a biologist, Lino Barañao, in charge of it. She also increased grants to firms that try to develop new products.
Many of the Kirchners’ critics were sceptical, seeing the ministry either as a political marketing ploy or as a soft touch for lobbyists seeking unjustified subsidies. But the strategy seems to be working. With help from the Inter-American Development Bank the government has, since 2004, lured back 854 expatriate scientists. It has done so by providing new laboratories and equipment for them, moving their families, and forking out extra money for their salaries. As a consequence, according to Dr Barañao, Argentine researchers have published 179 articles in leading journals in the past decade, compared with just 30 in the 1990s.

Most of the returners are academics. But commercial science has benefited, too. Indear, a joint public-private biotechnology-research centre based in Santa Fe, recently worked out how to transfer a gene for drought resistance from sunflowers to crops such as maize, soyabeans and wheat. That can increase yields in droughts by up to 40%. And the government has also doled out $54m in grants for the development of products that include coagulant factors to treat haemophilia, transgenic cattle which secrete valuable hormones in their milk, and better ways of probing for oil deposits.

Help for high-tech innovation comes in other forms, too. The state offers, for example, to pay the cost of patenting inventions in foreign jurisdictions and of hiring lawyers to defend those patents. It also acts as a headhunter for information-technology firms seeking employees with PhDs, and will pay part of the salaries of such recruits. None of these programmes has faced allegations of corruption.
Whether all this activity will have the effect of stimulating high-tech industry, as Ms Fernández hopes, remains to be seen. Argentine scientists are happy to take taxpayers’ money but according to Luis Dambra, a professor at the IAE business school in Buenos Aires, they look down their noses at the idea of actually getting their hands dirty by going into industry. Mr Dambra, though, says industry is equally to blame. In 2009 (the latest year for which data are available), only 21% of Argentine R&D was paid for by the private sector, compared with 44% of Brazil’s. Firms that might recruit academic scientists often do not see the point. Even those that do may struggle to accommodate people with a non-commercial background into the business world.

Attitudes can change, of course. In the 1980s many British academics were as snobbish about commerce as Argentina’s are now. These days, Britain’s top universities are gung-ho for spin-outs and the revenue they can provide. But it takes time and consistent policy to make such changes and Argentina is notorious for sudden alterations in the political weather. That makes the country a perilous place to invest, whatever the current climate.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Russia does not merely double: 


chornedsnorkack said:


> Russia
> 2010 10 356
> 2016 22 066


113 % growth in 6 years. And not the only one:


chornedsnorkack said:


> Kazakhstan
> 2010 9009
> 2016 19 664


118 % growth in 6 years.
The rest are slower:


chornedsnorkack said:


> Venezuela
> 2010 10 049
> 2016 10 285
> rises to 10 409 in 2011, falls to 10 266 in 2012


stuck within 4 % of 2010, and falling after 2011.


chornedsnorkack said:


> Argentina
> 2010 9131
> 2016 12 858


41 % growth.


chornedsnorkack said:


> Mexico
> 2010 9522
> 2016 13 052


37 % growth


chornedsnorkack said:


> Brazil
> 2010 10 816
> 2016 16 635


54 % growth


chornedsnorkack said:


> Chile
> 2010 11 827
> 2016 17 114


45 % growth


chornedsnorkack said:


> Uruguay
> 2010 11 998
> 2016 19 362


61 % growth


----------



## -Corey-

Nominal means nothing if we want to compare countries, PPP is what counts.


----------



## musiccity

South Africa has a lot of potential to become a developed country.


----------



## Name user 1

-Corey- said:


> Nominal means nothing if we want to compare countries, PPP is what counts.



primary commodity prices of for instance merchandise prices of good are traded in NOMINAL currency

e.g. - oil or Ipod on market costs (the same amount of money) no matter if you are from Argentina or Germany


----------



## Motul

musiccity said:


> South Africa has a lot of potential to become a developed country.


It has a very good business base, strong economy, but immense social challenges such as the HIV/Aids pandemic which has reduced life expectancy to only 49 years, for example. It's also one of the most unequal country on earth.. That's not to say some cities have reached developed status (cape town amongst others), but as a country it has huge challenges.


----------



## snowland

Exactly...

12858 dollars in Argentina COULD be much more than 22066 in Russia if we don't take the PPP for comparison...

(IMF - 2010 - PPP per capita)

Slovakia 22,195
Poland 18,981
Hungary 18,841
Estonia 18,527
Croatia 17,819
Lithuania 17,235
Argentina 15,901
Russia 15,612
Lebanon 15,239
Chile 15,040
Malaysia 14,744
Latvia 14,504
Mexico 14,406
Uruguay 14,339

___________________

(IMF - 2011 Forecast - PPP per capita)

Argentina 16,831
Chile 15,998
Croatia 18,103
Estonia 19,375
Hungary 19,501
Latvia 15,148
Lebanon 15,557
Lithuania 18,278
Malaysia 15,384
Mexico 15,113
Poland 19,887
Russia 16,840
Uruguay 15,121

That's what matters.


----------



## -Corey-

Yup ^^
Argentina in 2016 
$21,452
Russia
$21,723
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...er_capita#IMF_estimates_between_2010_and_2016


Name user 1 said:


> primary commodity prices of for instance merchandise prices of good are traded in NOMINAL currency
> 
> e.g. - oil or Ipod on market costs (the same amount of money) no matter if you are from Argentina or Germany


I know, except that you still have to pay taxes...


----------



## snowland

By this link

2011 Forecast

Argentina 17,376
Chile 16,172
Croatia 18,338
Estonia 20,182
Hungary 19,647
Latvia 15,448
Lebanon 15,597
Lithuania 18,770
Malaysia 15,579
Mexico 15,121	
Poland 20,137
Russia 16,687	
Uruguay 15,470

2016 Forecast

Argentina 21,452
Chile 20,187
Croatia 21,949
Estonia 25,795
Hungary 23,967
Latvia 19,904
Lebanon 18,644
Lithuania 24,303
Malaysia 19,302
Mexico 18,033	
Poland 25,072
Russia 21,723	
Uruguay 19,514


----------



## corsario albiceleste

_These are the updated numbers. September, 2011

*Gross domestic product based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) per capita GDP 2011*

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...,238,243,248,253,298,258,299&s=PPPPC&grp=0&a=
*

Argentina 17,376

Chile 16,171

Uruguay 15,469

México 15,121

Brasil 11,845



Gross domestic product based on purchasing-power-parity (PPP) per capita GDP 2012

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...,238,243,248,253,298,258,299&s=PPPPC&grp=0&a=


1 Argentina 18,201

2 Chile 16,913

3 Uruguay 16,232

4 México 15,675
*_*
Brasil 12,304
*


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## snowland

Very nice news for Argentina. :cucumber:


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## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Guys, PPP is just an abstraction. Would you give me 1,000 dollars for 2,000 pesos? I don't think so.

The fact is Argentinian GDP for 2010 was about 1.5 trillion pesos which worths 370 million dollars. That's the real size of Argentina in the world.


----------



## Name user 1

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Guys, PPP is just an abstraction. Would you give me 1,000 dollars for 2,000 pesos? I don't think so.
> 
> The fact is Argentinian GDP for 2010 was about 1.5 trillion pesos which worths 370 million dollars. That's the real size of Argentina in the world.


that's exactly what I meant 

e.g. when Argentinian buying computer from South Korea/or for rice from Vietnam then he is paying in NOMINAL currency


----------



## snowland

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Guys, PPP is just an abstraction. Would you give me 1,000 dollars for 2,000 pesos? I don't think so.
> 
> The fact is Argentinian GDP for 2010 was about 1.5 trillion pesos which worths 370 million dollars. That's the real size of Argentina in the world.


No, because that would be near to 450 dollars, not 1000 dollars.

PPP is not of course an abstraction. That's to make comparisons.


----------



## PaulBP

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Guys, PPP is just an abstraction. Would you give me 1,000 dollars for 2,000 pesos? I don't think so.
> 
> The fact is Argentinian GDP for 2010 was about 1.5 trillion pesos which worths 370 million dollars. That's the real size of Argentina in the world.


thats true. but i have to say that both gdp are important PPP and nominal. so chile is better placed, cause is the second latinamerican country in both, after uruguay and after argentina in each one.
argentina is very poor in nominal (strong in PPP) and brazil is way back in PPP (but decent in nominal)


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

snowland said:


> No, because that would be near to 450 dollars, not 1000 dollars.


So how come can we fantasize about how much the peso should worth? 1 dollar worths 4.40 pesos and period. The whole world operates assuming this.



snowland said:


> PPP is not of course an abstraction. That's to make comparisons.


To make comparisons with whom? Argentina has a big problem here: its GDP per capita is getting smaller and smaller compared to Brazil, for example. Something is not going well. São Paulo state's GDP in 2010, for example, was about 690 billion dollars as opposed to 370 billion of Argentina. That's, for some reason, is the true Argentinian weight in the world arena.


----------



## snowland

The true Argentine weight is the PPP per capita that's well above Brazil.

You can't take dollars for pesos nor reales. So the comparasion method in dollars is the PPP. It's not the best one, but it's trully better than comparing in nominal cause the dollar value in Argentina and Brazil is not the same.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
São Paulo's total production in 2010 worths 690 billion dollars. Argentina's one, 370 billion. That's a FACT. If someone wanted to buy the whole production of São Paulo or Argentina, he/she would have to pay this amount of money. "Ah, but my country have a better quality of life" or "poverty is smaller here". That's a completely separated issue.

And please, don't turn this into a "country vs country" or in one "I prefer PPP because my country doesn't look bad on it". You (and the whole world) know 1 dollar worths 4.4 pesos. The rest is only a "fairy tail" or a boring "what if" exercise.


----------



## snowland

The only one who proposed the "what if" is you. It's accepted worldwide that PPP is the best way when comparing countries. 

PPP considers the power of consumption. So it takes the international value of a dollar that varies depending on the country.

Who started this conversation of quality of life? That wasn't me. PPP per capita doesn't measure it. 

Argentine economy is a lot weaker than the Brazilian one. Though here we have higher power of consumption with the same amount of money.


----------



## Name user 1

clarification of concepts

PPP GDP is comparison of quality of life 
NOMINAL GDP is comparison of national economy weight in the World arena


----------



## snowland

Name user 1 said:


> clarification of concepts
> 
> *PPP GDP is comparison of quality of life *
> NOMINAL GDP is comparison of national economy weight in the World arena


That's not true.


----------



## PaulBP

PPP is usefull to per capita meassures but not for overall economy. so snowland and yuri have one point each one.


----------



## Name user 1

PPP GDP is how much you can buy in one country translated into $


----------



## snowland

For measuring the overall economy weight in the world arena, nominal is the ideal method. But having a strong economy doesn't mean to be developed. That's why this method doesn't due to this thread.

PPP doesn't measure the quality of life, but the power of consumption of each country with the same amount of money. So that's what matter on being more developed or not (but not only it). In Brazil they had much more money, but in Argentina a less amount of it values more.


----------



## Motul

In other words: Argentina is cheaper. Brazil is expensive as hell.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
And precisely because of that, Brazilians can travel to Argentina and buy everything they want. And the same is true for the big companies.

We are not talking about income or wages here. I'm not saying: "Look, how poor is this Argentine! He makes only 200 dollars a month!" There this PPP thing would be useful. Other than that, it means nothing. 

Soybeans, for example, which are important part of Argentinian GDP is trade in dollars, no matter produced there, in Brazil or in the US. The FACT is if someone would like to buy the whole 1.5 trillion pesos Argentinian production in 2010, it should pay 370 billion dollars, which is how much Argentinian production that year worths. Snowland just admited he wouldn't give me 1,000 dollars if I send him 2,000 pesos. Of course he wouldn't, because 1 dollar worths 4.4 pesos. That's the reality.

Argentina GDP is disturbingly low and I think this issue should be addressed instead of these shallow attempts to portray a more pink reality with this PPP thing. Argentina has a problem there. It's getting smaller and smaller in the World and even in the South American context.


----------



## snowland

That's true. Although we're recovering. But in this thread you can't use nominal cause the matter here is not the economy strength. Just like Motul said.


----------



## Motul

@Yuri: Another example of that is the size of it's stock Market (market cap).. Worth around us$75 billion (1/2 of Lima's, 1/4 of Colombia's, 1/5 of Santiago's, and 1/20th of Bovespa)... Also, not 1 top 500 or even top 2000 companies. FDI is half of countries like Peru and Colombia. When it comes to most economic data such as these. Argentina's growth is very atypical and non reflective of true progress..

Some people may be surprised why so much talk about Argentina, well.. It's a truly fascinating and perplexing case of deviant growth (where is it truly going?).. Hopefully it's actually advancing, either way argentina has a bright future, it just needs a good president, the people are great and educated.


----------



## Erran

PPP is better figure to determine people's welfare/prosperity in a single country. Since country's GDP is actually counted in National currency, then converted to USD. Let say 1 USD = 4 Pesos (currency exchange), I'm sure 1 USD in USA will weigh differently with 4 Pesos in Argentina. We hold different currency in our hands, which is not perfectly converted one into another (undervalue/overvalue factor). So it's just blindly unfair if we compare each country's prosperity by the Nominal GDP percapita. 

It will be a different story, if we determine the economic powers of countries in International field, then Nominal is the perfect figure since we hold the same currency in our hands, which is USD. And the goods traded is also valued in USD, don't take into account how much undervalued/overvalued of our currencies are.

So, both PPP and Nominal are important.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Yes, I share your views. When it comes to GDP, nominal is far more important though. But if we wanna discuss wages, income, PPP will be more useful.



snowland said:


> That's true. Although we're recovering. But in this thread you can't use nominal cause the matter here is not the economy strength. Just like Motul said.


Yes, agree. Although, I believe a _nominal GDP per capita_ above 20.000,00 is a condition (together with a 0.800 HDI) for a country to be regarded as full "developed". That's why the Argentinian situation bothers me. Let's see if the country will be able to strengthen its economy and claim a bigger share in the world's economy.



Motul said:


> @Yuri: Another example of that is the size of it's stock Market (market cap).. Worth around us$75 billion (1/2 of Lima's, 1/4 of Colombia's, 1/5 of Santiago's, and 1/20th of Bovespa)... Also, not 1 top 500 or even top 2000 companies. FDI is half of countries like Peru and Colombia. When it comes to most economic data such as these. Argentina's growth is very atypical and non reflective of true progress..
> 
> Some people may be surprised why so much talk about Argentina, well.. It's a truly fascinating and perplexing case of deviant growth (where is it truly going?).. Hopefully it's actually advancing, either way argentina has a bright future, it just needs a good president, the people are great and educated.


I completely with both paragraphs.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


EDIT


----------



## isakres

Must say the Rio Grande Valley (southern Texas) indeed looks poorer than the rest of the USA. Anyway and despite some houses with clearly poor inhabitants, such cities as Brownsville, Mc Allen, etc looks cleaner, more organized and with better urbanization than most of the cities in the emerging world.


----------



## -Corey-

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Yes, I share your views. When it comes to GDP, nominal is far more important though. But if we wanna discuss wages, income, PPP will be more useful.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, agree. Although, I believe a _nominal GDP per capita_ above 20.000,00 is a condition (together with a 0.800 HDI) for a country to be regarded as full "developed". That's why the Argentinian situation bothers me. Let's see if the country will be able to strengthen its economy and claim a bigger share in the world's economy.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely with both paragraphs.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Back to the topic, the lowest-income counties in the US:
> 
> 
> 
> We'll probably find very third-worldish communities over there.


Most of those counties are underpopulated.


----------



## Motul

I'm surprised not to see Miami-Dade on that map.. It's really quite poor "a piece of third world in America" as a congressman once put it.


----------



## -Corey-

Miami-Dade County is poor compared to other states' counties
$41,367 according to the U.S. Census Bureau in 2009. I wish some countries were that 'poor'.


----------



## Motul

What about distribution of wealth?


----------



## musiccity

Motul said:


> It has a very good business base, strong economy, but immense social challenges such as the HIV/Aids pandemic which has reduced life expectancy to only 49 years, for example. It's also one of the most unequal country on earth.. That's not to say some cities have reached developed status (cape town amongst others), but as a country it has huge challenges.


Pretty much summed it up. South Africa's cities are very developed, almost to the point of 1st world. But the townships remain very 3rd world. If the townships were converted into nice social housing like they have in Europe and more jobs were created in townships then SA might become Africa's only first world country. That's still years ahead though...


----------



## -Corey-

Motul said:


> What about distribution of wealth?


That's one of the reasons I hate Miami, but as much as I hate it, still is nowhere near as one of the poorest cities in the U.S.


----------



## Skyprince

Multi-ethnic & cosmopolitan nations tend to have high income inequality. This is quite natural & unavoidable, so I am not surprised with high income inequality in South America. It's nobody's mistake I think or maybe their govenrments shud put more effort to reduce it ? 

On which developing nation will join rich world next, it depends on ur interpretation on what developing world really means. Some may regard Arabian Gulf nations as developed while some not- the same is true for many Eastern European nations .


----------



## michaelkervins

There are lots of country which are under developing. Some of these are developing rapidly. LIke:
1. Malashiya
2. Brazil
3. India
4. Costa rica


----------



## Motul

CR is stagnant unfortunately... Poverty is growing, whereas in other latin american countries its reducing.


----------



## daniel220776

Panama will soon overtake Costa Rica as the most developed central american country.


----------



## aaabbbccc

Around the world extreme wealth is growing very fast and extreme poverty is growing just as fast , many countries you do not see that instead you see a fast growing middle class I believe in 2050 if all goes well the majority of the world ( 60 % to 80 % ) could become middle class


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Motul said:


> CR is stagnant unfortunately... Poverty is growing, whereas in other latin american countries its reducing.


Why is that? What's going on there?


----------



## NorthWesternGuy

^^Intel must have closed a production line :no:


----------



## Motul

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Why is that? What's going on there?



Escalading crime and poverty, low GDP growth, excessive bureaucracy making it unappealing to business, especially with the rise of Panama and Colombia a few hundred miles away. CR Doing business ranking; 125.

In other words, the country simply is not competetive


----------



## Marsupilami

Yuri, you have plenty of time, don't you?...:lol:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Motul said:


> Escalading crime and poverty, low GDP growth, excessive bureaucracy making it unappealing to business, especially with the rise of Panama and Colombia a few hundred miles away. CR Doing business ranking; 125.
> 
> In other words, the country simply is not competetive


Motul, I checked the data for Costa Rica's GDP growth and it doesn't seem very bad: 

2000 ---- 2001 ---- 2002 ---- 2003 ---- 2004 ---- 2005 ---- 2006 ---- 2007 ---- 2008 ---- 2009 ---- 2010
*1.8% --- 1.1% --- 2.9% --- 6.4% --- 4.3% --- 5.9% --- 8.8% --- 7.8% --- 2.6% --- -1.5% --- 3.5%*
_World Bank_

About the other problems, do you guys know if the government/society are doing anything to address them?


----------



## snowland

Wow, Argentina is more competitive than Costa Rica. Now that's new.


----------



## oliver999

chinese cities change by google earth.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE1NTA1MTQ4.html


----------



## alexxo

If this is a guessing game, I have no idea how to play. No data, no exist.


----------



## Motul

oliver999 said:


> chinese cities change by google earth.
> http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE1NTA1MTQ4.html


China 2050


----------



## henrique42

unfortunately, growth over here in Brazil is also stagnating...only 3 % growth this year, while we need at least 2% growth p/ year, just to keep up with population growth / people entering the labour market.


----------



## Motul

Yeah, i dont understand why Brazil is tanking so much.. Last year their growth was great at over 7%. :dunno:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
7.5% in 2010, but in 2009, it was negative: -0.3%. 

2010 growth was clearly "deformed" by the recovery and the agressive tax cuts. This 3% for 2011 is quite normal, although people were predicting 4.5% in the beginning of the year. The downside for 2011 is high inflation: 6.4%.


----------



## kwong

Colombia will never be a developed country...it's current economic growth will be destroyed by wars between the gov't and drug lords... the same as Mexico and many other Latam countries...


----------



## messicano

kwong said:


> Colombia will never be a developed country...it's current economic growth will be destroyed by wars between the gov't and drug lords... the same as Mexico and many other Latam countries...


Mexico has a good IDH and GDP PPP per capita and is less violent than brazil


----------



## messicano

Brazil economy grow 3%...but the GDP per capita nominal grow 30%...crazy

Argentina economy grow 8%...but the GDP per capita nominal grow just a little


----------



## Motul

kwong said:


> Colombia will never be a developed country...it's current economic growth will be destroyed by wars between the gov't and drug lords... the same as Mexico and many other Latam countries...


Hahaha what a fool.


----------



## Uspallata

Argentina and Chile FOR SURE!


----------



## koolio

I think there are enough developed countries as it is. We should consider placing a moratorium on the number of developed countries so that we can properly gauge the net benefit/loss of accepting newcomers to the club. Maybe there should be a new category called "Sub-Developed Countries" to fit nations that are just exiting the "Developing Countries" phase.


----------



## Skyprince

Blackraven said:


> T
> GCC territories (if they are not yet considered as developed.......but personally, I consider the GCC territories of UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain as developed/first world)


Agreed with your list

Whatever I saw in the Gulf absolutely confirms that they are totally developed- in fact the lifestyle in the Gulf ( except for Saudi ) is alot better than what I saw in vast majority of European countries . In what way stunningly vibrant UAE with top-notch infrastructure, very low crime rate , super high standard of living ( for its nationals ), super-consumerist lifestyle, increasing manufacturing industry is a "Developing country" while UK with crime in major cities, dull cityscapes ( sorry ) where many/most shops closed after 6 , very depressing lifestyles, etc is considered "Developed" ? :dunno: Not to bash UK but this is exactly what I saw there during my 1-month vacation in UK ( my sister complains the exact same thing -she is now studying in UK ) . 

And about the Gulf citizens not absorbed well into private sector, I believe this is only a matter of time - many of Emiratis, Omanis, Qataris I knew personally are in professional fields . Must remember where those countries were just 50-60 years ago. 

I loved everything I saw there ( in the Gulf ) :cheers:


----------



## kwong

Motul said:


> Hahaha what a fool.


no need to mock other people, just tell me whether your gov't has conquered those drug lords and whether there are no more wars with drugs lords or not...


----------



## kwong

Skyprince said:


> Agreed with your list
> 
> Whatever I saw in the Gulf absolutely confirms that they are totally developed- in fact the lifestyle in the Gulf ( except for Saudi ) is alot better than what I saw in vast majority of European countries . In what way stunningly vibrant UAE with top-notch infrastructure, very low crime rate , super high standard of living ( for its nationals ), super-consumerist lifestyle, increasing manufacturing industry is a "Developing country" while UK with crime in major cities, dull cityscapes ( sorry ) where many/most shops closed after 6 , very depressing lifestyles, etc is considered "Developed" ? :dunno: Not to bash UK but this is exactly what I saw there during my 1-month vacation in UK ( my sister complains the exact same thing -she is now studying in UK ) .
> 
> And about the Gulf citizens not absorbed well into private sector, I believe this is only a matter of time - many of Emiratis, Omanis, Qataris I knew personally are in professional fields . Must remember where those countries were just 50-60 years ago.
> 
> I loved everything I saw there ( in the Gulf ) :cheers:


agreed, and they don't have large favelas like in Latam countries


----------



## jbkayaker12

I would place special emphasis on a developed nation as to how it welcome and absorb non-citizen contract workers to its country. I have heard horror stories of how a non-citizen contract worker can be treated like dirt by the citizens of these so called rich and developed Arab nations.


----------



## goschio

Skyprince said:


> Agreed with your list
> 
> Whatever I saw in the Gulf absolutely confirms that they are totally developed- in fact the lifestyle in the Gulf ( except for Saudi ) is alot better than what I saw in vast majority of European countries . In what way stunningly vibrant UAE with top-notch infrastructure, very low crime rate , *super high standard of living ( for its nationals )*, super-consumerist lifestyle, increasing manufacturing industry is a "Developing country" while UK with crime in major cities, dull cityscapes ( sorry ) where many/most shops closed after 6 , very depressing lifestyles, etc is considered "Developed" ? :dunno: Not to bash UK but this is exactly what I saw there during my 1-month vacation in UK ( my sister complains the exact same thing -she is now studying in UK ) .
> 
> And about the Gulf citizens not absorbed well into private sector, I believe this is only a matter of time - many of Emiratis, Omanis, Qataris I knew personally are in professional fields . Must remember where those countries were just 50-60 years ago.
> 
> I loved everything I saw there ( in the Gulf ) :cheers:


You said it. Nationals are a minority in the UAE.


----------



## goschio

kwong said:


> agreed, and they don't have large favelas like in Latam countries


They have their slave labour camps just outside the cities.


----------



## kwong

goschio said:


> They have their slave labour camps just outside the cities.


those camps are filled with foreign nationals, who will eventually leave... favelas are locals, who stay in those countries FOREVER


----------



## Skyprince

jbkayaker12 said:


> I would place special emphasis on a developed nation as to how it welcome and absorb non-citizen contract workers to its country. I have heard horror stories of how a non-citizen contract worker can be treated like dirt by the citizens of these so called rich and developed Arab nations.


Well, put any country into that location i.e where UAE is now ( surrounded or within proximity to many least developed nations , yes the Big ones, and with very active migration since decades , if not centuries ) then we can judge. 

And I think we should only consider the local population , not foreign residents. Generally many of foreign residents from South Asia I met in Dubai are in semi-profesisonal fields who are earning 4000-9000 Dirhams/month ( USD 1200- 2600 ) which is really good salary and they live quite well.


----------



## Jonesy55

Skyprince said:


> Not to bash UK :


Of course not!


----------



## eklips

koolio said:


> I think there are enough developed countries as it is. We should consider placing a moratorium on the number of developed countries so that we can properly gauge the net benefit/loss of accepting newcomers to the club. Maybe there should be a new category called "Sub-Developed Countries" to fit nations that are just exiting the "Developing Countries" phase.


If we kick Germany out of the developed countries club we can allow a few more in :cheers:


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

koolio said:


> I think there are enough developed countries as it is. We should consider placing a moratorium on the number of developed countries so that we can properly gauge the net benefit/loss of accepting newcomers to the club. Maybe there should be a new category called "Sub-Developed Countries" to fit nations that are just exiting the "Developing Countries" phase.


What? Why isn't it good that more countries gets developed? Why should only a fraction of the world live a comfortable life? It is easy to say so if you are already living in a developed country.


----------



## Motul

kwong said:


> no need to mock other people, just tell me whether your gov't has conquered those drug lords and whether there are no more wars with drugs lords or not...



War with drugs? Of course. Financial, institutional, and democratic stability? Of course. This country is increasingly serious :yes:

Growth: 6% this year
Gdp PPP: $514 billion
Gdp Per capita PPP: $11,100 (Dec. 2011)
FDI: 13 billion
HDI: .710 (high)
Total commerce (exports/imports): 100 billion

*Financial Development:*


----------



## henrique42

*Skyprince*  
_'' very depressing lifestyles''_

_====_

_said by someone from a muslim society....._


----------



## Skyprince

Uspallata said:


> Argentina and Chile FOR SURE!


I've seen soooo many photos of Chile and its hard to believe that Chile is still a "developing" country with huge income gap ; I googled for "poverty in Chile " but didn't see any images of terrifying poverty in Chile. 

I started this thread on Chile in Malaysian forum -->http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=923222 

Almost everything I saw on Chile is awesome, even "rural metros" like Antofagasta, Iquique, Puerto Montt etc look amazingly neat, modern and first-world :cheers:


----------



## henrique42

try '' pobreza chile''


----------



## henrique42

edit


----------



## Jundiaiense da Silva

kwong said:


> those camps are filled with foreign nationals, who will eventually leave... favelas are locals, who stay in those countries FOREVER


In Brazil, people that have arrived from other states to favelas would leave it too. But didn't leave it. Do you want to bet that those labour camps in the UAE will become into a huge problem?


----------



## jbkayaker12

Skyprince said:


> Well, put any country into that location i.e where UAE is now ( surrounded or within proximity to many least developed nations , yes the Big ones, and with very active migration since decades , if not centuries ) then we can judge.
> 
> And I think we should only consider the local population , not foreign residents. Generally many of foreign residents from South Asia I met in Dubai are in semi-profesisonal fields who are earning 4000-9000 Dirhams/month ( USD 1200- 2600 ) which is really good salary and they live quite well.


It still does not change the fact that minorities especially those contract workers are treated differently like 2nd class citizens. No need to defend the Arab states, if they want to truly be considered developed nations then they can start treating those migrant workers with respect!!!

By the way this is just for your information, an illegal alien that gets sick here in the US will be treated in the hospital. Of course at the expense of US citizens and legal residents but the fact that if they have to go to the emergency room, they will not be refused hospital care. They'll be treated like human beings.


----------



## Bolsilludo

In Latin America: Chile, Argentina and Uruguay...


----------



## chaiko

kwong said:


> no need to mock other people, just tell me whether your gov't has conquered those drug lords and whether there are no more wars with drugs lords or not...


Colombia has made a lot of progress from just a decade ago. 40k members of the FARC group existed back then, compared to 8k last time I checked. There's still a lot to do of course, but Colombia isn't in the headlines for "drug wars" as much as back then.
Sadly, Mexico has gone the other way around. hno:


----------



## vidiipurpllediinatha

Probably you've mistaken me for someone else. 

I've been organizing this kind of table since I entered in SSC (using 2006 data), when Brazilian GDP was only the 10th in the world, almost tied with Mexican. I'm sorry if something on the table bothered you. What should I do? Edit the post?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
What are you? Why are you copying my posts?


----------



## Jonesy55

A spambot of some sort, but not any more!


----------



## messicano

Mexico can be developed with narcos,no problem with them


----------



## messicano

chaiko said:


> Colombia has made a lot of progress from just a decade ago. 40k members of the FARC group existed back then, compared to 8k last time I checked. There's still a lot to do of course, but Colombia isn't in the headlines for "drug wars" as much as back then.
> Sadly, Mexico has gone the other way around. hno:


but mexico has less murder than colombia


----------



## Motul

messicano said:


> but mexico has less murder than colombia



Yes, but tendencies indicate that Mexico's murder *rate* (because Mexico actually _does_ have more total murders than Colombia) is increasing, while Colombia's murder rate is decreasing at a steady rate. It's now 27/100,000 when it was once more than twice that.

Mexico is what? 18/100,000? not that big of a difference.


----------



## Christianmx

Your Colombia obsession is worrisome, Motul.


----------



## Motul

Why, did I lie at some point? :?


----------



## Aztecgoddess

Christianmx said:


> Your Colombia obsession is worrisome, Motul.


Every country must have it's own alexpilsen


----------



## Christianmx

Motul said:


> Why, did I lie at some point? :?


Now you are splitting hairs.


----------



## Christianmx

Aztecgoddess said:


> Every country must have it's own alexpilsen


You are mean! :nuts: He's not that bad.


----------



## Motul

Yeah.. Exagerados XD.. I just try to represent a bit, someone has to do the dirty work :lol:

What does it mean to "split hairs"?

@Chilanga: First I am the ***** of La Plaza, and now I'm Alexpilsen 2.0? Make up your mind :lol:


----------



## Aztecgoddess

Motul said:


> Yeah.. Exagerados XD.. I just try to represent a bit, someone has to do the dirty work :lol:
> 
> What does it mean to "split hairs"?
> 
> @Chilanga: First I am the ***** of La Plaza, and now I'm Alexpilsen 2.0? Make up your mind :lol:


Motul, why do you call me Chilanga? I ain't from Mexico city and I've never called you a ***** either (much less in la plaza, haven't been there in months).  :lol:


----------



## Christianmx

Aztecgoddess said:


> Motul, why do you call me Chilanga? I ain't from Mexico city and I've never called you a ***** either (much less in la plaza, haven't been there in months).  :lol:


I noticed that too. Don't take that from him :nono:


----------



## Motul

Aztecgoddess said:


> Motul, why do you call me Chilanga? I ain't from Mexico city and I've never called you a ***** either (much less in la plaza, haven't been there in months).  :lol:



I confused you with Chilangaliosa, sorry .. Lapsus mental. Chilanga called me all those things.. :lol:

Siempre las confundo, sorry :tongue2:


----------



## Aztecgoddess

Christianmx said:


> I noticed that too. Don't take that from him :nono:


I won't trust me :lol:


Motul said:


> I confused you with Chilangaliosa, sorry .. Lapsus mental. Chilanga called me all those things.. :lol:
> 
> Siempre las confundo, sorry :tongue2:


That's fine Occit, not a big deal on your lapsus brutus. :happy:
Now back to our topic.
Can't wait to see Colombia becoming latinoamerica's 3rd economic powerhouse.


----------



## Jundiaiense da Silva

Aztecgoddess said:


> I won't trust me :lol:
> 
> That's fine Occit, not a big deal on your lapsus brutus. :happy:
> Now back to our topic.
> Can't wait to see Colombia becoming latinoamerica's 3rd economic powerhouse.


And I can't wait to see Colombia becoming hispanic 2nd economic powerhouse. After pass Spain! Nothing against Argentina, but who have more people, must have more GDP, don't you think it?


----------



## Motul

Not only that.. But who does things better


----------



## cameronpaul

Skyprince said:


> Before Chile, Argentina or Malaysia, how about Hungary, Estonia and Poland ?
> 
> Is Hungary considered developed ? Anyone been to Hungary to share their thoughts ? From photos of Budapest and smaller cities like Szeged it looks nicely-developed enough , and being in "temperate zone" clearly makes it cities clean and sterile unlike in tropical/warm zone.


Yes, Hungary is a developed country but still suffers from it's communist legacy which it is finding difficult to shake off.
Poland, on the other hand, is forging ahead at a good rate mainly because the population has a real work ethic - Polish cities are being restored and revived, some of which now rank among the most beautiful anywhere. The progress made in this country to the infrastructure over the past 10/15 years is awesome! You do see areas of poverty still, but nothing on the scale of Latin American countries.


----------



## Jundiaiense da Silva

Jonesy55 said:


> You think that Spain will just sit there and remain stagnant long enough for Colombia to triple its GDP? :laugh:


I meant that Spain is stagnant in its *population*. And the economy is moved by consume, don't is?


----------



## Motul

Europe is stagnant and old.. Latín America has a good demographic moment in history right now. We are neither stagnant nor growing too fast, not too old, not too young: just right at a median age of 25 to 30 for most countries kay:

This, amongst many other reasons, is why it's our decade :-D


----------



## henrique42

''our decade''

our? Please leave Brazil out of the group, except for being on the same continent, we have nothing in common with Colombia


----------



## Motul

henrique42 said:


> ''our decade''
> 
> our? Please leave Brazil out of the group, except for being on the same continent, we have nothing in common with Colombia



Deffinetly Brazil doesnt belong in there. 

3% growth, 6% inflation versus Colombia's 6% growth and 3% inflation..

With such numbers you can pretty much say we are polar opposites, thankfully for us.


----------



## henrique42

I see that you are just another one with the famous third world complex, who needs it to show numbers and abbreviations (gdp. hdi etc etc), but as with everthing in history, everything comes to an end, and most probably within a few years or so, colombia will be just the same insignificant middle of nowhere, what it was, is and ever will be


----------



## Motul

henrique42 said:


> I see that you are just another one with the famous third world complex, who needs it to show numbers and abbreviatianos (gdp. hdi etc etc), but as with everthing in history, everything comes to an end, and most probably within a few years or so, colombia will be just the same insignificant middle of nowhere, what it was, is and ever will be


Hey, you are the one stating both countries have nothing in common. I'm simply confirming it through numbers 

Polar opposites, as I said. :yes:

Btw: geographically Colombia is pretty much in the middle of everywhere, being located on the Equator and all


----------



## henrique42

ok!
you could have said as well;
Brazil; bundas, football, praias and parties
Colombia: drugs......and drugwars.
I suppose we're both right
and I like you smilies


----------



## Motul

Oh yes, I forgot Brazil is free of drug traffic, kidnappings, murders and favela violence 

Definitely Brazil is the paradise we aspire to be here in Colombia.


----------



## henrique42

Brazil is not free of anything.
But in the whole world, Columbia is mainly known for drug(wars).


----------



## henrique42

ah yeah, and its coffee....


----------



## Motul

Unfortunately the world is full of ignorant masses who think people still wear wooden shoes in Netherlands or live in Igloos in Canada. 

Of course they're gonna think Colombia is all about drugs. :dunno:

I personally dont mind, they'll catch up with us eventually, (they already are).


----------



## henrique42

''I personally dont mind. ''

ok
That explains your mission to show the ''ignorant masses'' on SSC what a miracle colombia is nowadays, by quoting fantastic GDP, HDI , JGYHBVD, WFDRSQAV numbers...


----------



## Aztecgoddess

henrique42 said:


> ok!
> you could have said as well;
> Brazil; bundas, football, praias and parties
> Colombia: drugs......and drugwars.
> I suppose we're both right
> and I like you smilies


Listen you punk, we've already have an annoying Brazilian troll, and that's more than enough for ssc.
So please tone down your volume, Brazil has more in common with latinamerica than even other Portuguese speaking countries.


----------



## henrique42

Ok my ''goddess''.....


----------



## xrtn2

Motul said:


> Deffinetly Brazil doesnt belong in there.
> 
> 3% growth, 6% inflation versus Colombia's 6% growth and 3% inflation..
> 
> With such numbers you can pretty much say we are polar opposites, thankfully for us.


hno:hno:


----------



## Jundiaiense da Silva

Aztecgoddess said:


> Listen you punk, we've already have an annoying Brazilian troll, and that's more than enough for ssc.
> So please tone down your volume, Brazil has more in common with latinamerica than even other Portuguese speaking countries.


Yeah, Brasil is a complete latin american country yes. Please, don't take into account the obnoxious words which he said. Viva colombia, brasil, latinoamérica, etc...


----------



## Skyprince

Iluminat said:


> Big but I'm not particularly impressed with the quality of architecture


But they are very "typical" "middle-class" homes in Oman. That's very fancy by world standard for typical middle-class homes, I think. There are many far more impressive homes in Oman .

And the interior is very luxurious. Omanis invest alot into housing.


----------



## Skyprince

cameronpaul said:


> Yes, Hungary is a developed country but still suffers from it's communist legacy which it is finding difficult to shake off.
> Poland, on the other hand, is forging ahead at a good rate mainly because the population has a real work ethic - Polish cities are being restored and revived, some of which now rank among the most beautiful anywhere. The progress made in this country to the infrastructure over the past 10/15 years is awesome! You do see areas of poverty still, but nothing on the scale of Latin American countries.


Poland with almost 40 million population doesn't attract Emirates or Qatar Airways to fly there ? And Chopin Airport only handled less than 10 million pax in 2010 ? 

These are only aviation figures, but I don't expect this from a huge country of nearly 40 million people and per-capita GDP (PPP ) of almost USD 20,000 .


----------



## CarltonHill

Uruguay & Romania are my candidates...


----------



## Motul

Romania? It's behind a good number of countries..


----------



## Iluminat

Skyprince said:


> But they are very "typical" "middle-class" homes in Oman. That's very fancy by world standard for typical middle-class homes, I think. There are many far more impressive homes in Oman .
> 
> And the interior is very luxurious. Omanis invest alot into housing.


Like I said they are quite big and perhaps luxurious but not very tasteful I've seen far nicer typical middle class housing with lower standards.


----------



## henrique42

OMG
And I thought the nouveau ''riches'' of my country were tasteless....
I suppose the less culture, the bigger/kitschier the houses, as a way of showing your .....''succes''


----------



## Motul

It's an arab thing. They like things loud and excessive, something we would consider tacky in the west, they consider tasteful.. Like gold toilets :crazy:


----------



## eklips

^^ Are you being ironic?


----------



## Motul

eklips said:


> ^^ Are you being ironic?


Not the least bit. Do you know anything about rich arabs? :?


----------



## eklips

Is this where you learned about arabs?








I live in Paris, which is frequently visited by rich people from the Gulf, and I have worked on the champs-élysée where they do most of their shoping. So yes I know about "rich arabs".

However the irony comes from the fact that some latin-American countries, Colombia notably, have also suffered from this "bad taste nouveau riche" stereotype, think about Pablo Escobar's golden taps in one of his homes. Colombians have suffered from these racist conceptions for years, hence the irony. 

In the other thread, you made clear that you reproduced European colonial visions of latin-America with Africa, but it also seems that you are eager to also reproduce European racism against arabs :crazy: . Which would be pathetic if it wasn't so sad.


----------



## Motul

Drug dealers suffer from that stigma within Colombia even.. They're whole style of arquitecture is distinctive and easily recognized, we call it "traqueto". In general rich Colombian people aren't tacky at all.

About the arabs, even the airports they build in the middle east are over the top (Doha), so as their skyscrapers. 

It's a culture of wealth excess, what's wrong about saying that? They have to have the tallest, biggest, most expensive to be satisfied. That's what I mean when I say it's a cultural thing.

On the other hand we have the Nordic people, who value frugality and nature above all else, and yet they are quite rich..


----------



## Jonesy55

eklips said:


> Is this where you learned about arabs?
> 
> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opD2mupUrrM">YouTube Link</a>
> 
> I live in Paris, which is frequently visited by rich people from the Gulf, and I have worked on the champs-élysée where they do most of their shoping. So yes I know about "rich arabs".
> 
> However the irony comes from the fact that some latin-American countries, Colombia notably, have also suffered from this "bad taste nouveau riche" stereotype.


Hey, don't forget the Russians too!


----------



## eklips

^^ and gypsies :laugh:


----------



## eklips

Motul said:


> Drug dealers suffer from that stigma within Colombia even.. They're whole style of arquitecture is distinctive and easily recognized, we call it "traqueto". In general rich Colombian people aren't tacky at all.
> 
> About the arabs, even the airports they build in the middle east are over the top (Doha), so as their skyscrapers.
> 
> It's a culture of wealth excess, what's wrong about saying that? They have to have the tallest, biggest, most expensive to be satisfied. That's what I mean when I say it's a cultural thing.
> 
> On the other hand we have the Nordic people, who value frugality and nature above all else, and yet they are quite rich..



Oh please, the gulf countries are only a very small region inside the arab world, rich algerians or egyptians for example are very different. You also have some very "tacky" cities and regions in latin-America, think Panama or pre-revolutionnary Cuba for example.

You are just trying to hard to convince us (or yourself?) that you are "western".


----------



## Jonesy55

eklips said:


> ^^ and gypsies :laugh:


And people from Essex, though that be a bit too parochial for an international forum....


----------



## provinciano

Motul said:


> Deffinetly Brazil doesnt belong in there.
> 
> 3% growth, 6% inflation versus Colombia's 6% growth and 3% inflation..
> 
> With such numbers you can pretty much say we are polar opposites, thankfully for us.


So, Angola is too much better than US because it grows more? Which else kind of comparation do you want? Argentina worse than Peru in social level because it has a notable inflation? :dunno:

I'm neither patriot nor nacionalist, but do you really want to compare numbers? If you tell me so...


----------



## provinciano

In Latin America, I bet the next will be Chile.


----------



## CarltonHill

provinciano said:


> In Latin America, I bet the next will be Chile.


Chile is already a developed country. along with Argentina.


----------



## messicano

Oman,hungary,poland,chile,croatia,slovakya,slovenia,malasia,argentina,mexico,uruguay,baltic countries,russia,costa rica,panama,etc


----------



## CarltonHill

messicano said:


> Oman,*hungary*,poland,*chile*,*croatia*,*slovakya*,*slovenia*,malasia,*argentina*,mexico,uruguay,*baltic countries*,russia,costa rica,panama,etc


many of these countries you stated are already Developed... On the other hand... Maybe Uruguay would be the next.


----------



## provinciano

CarltonHill said:


> Chile is already a developed country. along with Argentina.


I'm sorry, but they are not. Anyway, they have a social condition better than undeveloped world average.


----------



## Motul

Hmm, I wonder what the undeveloped (developing is a better word) world average would be? :?


----------



## provinciano

Motul said:


> Hmm, I wonder what the undeveloped (developing is a better word) world average would be? :?


The World Bank classifies countries into four income groups. These are set each year on July 1. Economies were divided according to 2008 GNI per capita using the following ranges of income:
Low income countries had GNI per capita of US$1005 or less.
Lower middle income countries had GNI per capita between US$1006 and US$3,975.
Upper middle income countries had GNI per capita between US$3,976 and US$12,275.
High income countries had GNI above US$12,276.

http://data.worldbank.org/about/country-classifications
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country#cite_note-WB-10

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Nominal percapita in Chile is: $13,970. 

GPD nominal per capita in Argentina: $10,639


----------



## isakres

snowland said:


> Development ≠ High HDI... Development = High HDI + high medium (and disposable income) + great infrastructure + low poverty + advanced science research...


That is your particular definition of development (which I would agree )

I was just referring to the current main methodology (accepted worldwide) to determine developed status.

Anyway, after reading again your definition of developed, i really have some questions........Does Portugal / Greece have advanced science research?, When would we consider a country as advanced in science research??


----------



## musiccity

Chile is pretty close.


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

isakres said:


> Anyway, after reading again your definition of developed, i really have some questions........Does Portugal / Greece have advanced science research?, When would we consider a country as advanced in science research??


IMO, there are three important points to look at

1) Number of citations from scientific documents published. Some people use number of published documents, but I find it is less precise, because sometimes really similar documents are published without something new in terms of content. While citations on the other hand, truly show how much important/innovative information does a document hold.
2) Percentage of R&D spending in terms of the GDP, but also nominally. Both private and public. 
3) Number of patents filled and granted. In this case it is a bit more difficult to track since patents can be made for a new comic book to a new beverage so it is difficult to tell how many are actually related to the scientific field.


----------



## isakres

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> IMO, there are three important points to look at
> 
> 1) Number of citations from scientific documents published. Some people use number of published documents, but I find it is less precise, because sometimes really similar documents are published without something new in terms of content. While citations on the other hand, truly show how much important information does a document hold.
> 2) Percentage of R&D spending in terms of the GDP. Both private and public
> 3) Number of patents filled and granted. In this case it is a bit more difficult to track since patents can be made for a new comic book to a new beverage so it is difficult to tell how many are actually related to the scientific field.


Thats what i thought, but there are some countries currently labeled as developed that has a very poor R&D spending ratio as % of GDP.(Im not sure about number of patents and scientific documents citations). 

Maybe little countries countries can reach development without huge R&D spendings. (i.e. They can reach decent living standards based mainly on tourism), but i dont think big Countries can do it based on that simple economies.


----------



## musiccity

gfd08 said:


> Netherlands has Dutch 80.7%, EU 5%, Indonesian 2.4%, Turkish 2.2%, Surinamese 2%, Moroccan 2%, Caribbean 0.8%, other 4.8% (2008 est.), while Uruguay has white 88%, mestizo 8%, black 4%, Amerindian (practically nonexistent). (*)
> 
> There is no need to be a homogeneus society in order to be prosperous.
> 
> (*) Source: CIA World Factbook


Those statistics are still fairly homogenous compared to a lot of Latin American countries 85.7% Euro White and 90%+ Caucasian.. Many Latin American countries do not have a clear majority like Brazil.


----------



## isakres

^^ Uruguay and Argentina = Europe meets Tango


----------



## musiccity

^^

I was actually talking about the comparison between the Netherlands and Latin America lol


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

isakres said:


> Thats what i thought, but there are some countries currently labeled as developed that has a very poor R&D spending ratio as % of GDP.(Im not sure about number of patents and scientific documents citations).
> 
> Maybe little countries countries can reach development without huge R&D spendings. (i.e. They can reach decent living standards based mainly on tourism), but i dont think big Countries can do it based on that simple economies.


I agree. For a smaller country, it would be easier to develop without being heavily invested in science and R&D, although the latter will always have a more sustainable outcome in the long-run than relying on tourism or natural resources. 

For big countries, it is pretty much a must. You can't expect large countries that currently have cheap labor and/or large natural resources, to always have cheap labor and infinite natural resources. At one point, they need to turn into knowledge economies at least partially.


----------



## isakres

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> I agree. For a smaller country, it would be easier to develop without being heavily invested in science and R&D, although the latter will always have a more sustainable outcome in the long-run than relying on tourism or natural resources.
> 
> For big countries, it is pretty much a must. You can't expect large countries that currently have cheap labor and/or large natural resources, to always have cheap labor and infinite natural resources. At one point, they need to turn into knowledge economies at least partially.



Indeed, so the "Advanced in Science Research" term (as a variable) may not fit for all countries and it would be non relevant for some small countries to determine if they are developed or not.


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

isakres said:


> Indeed, so the "Advanced in Science Research" term (as a variable) may not fit for all countries and it would be non relevant for some small countries to determine if they are developed or not.


But I guess it also comes down to how big the economy is and how big is the scientific output (#citations, #patents...) in comparison. For instance, India has a bit more citations than Denmark (6% more), but an economy almost 6 times bigger. Hence Denmark utilizes it's scientific potential to the max, while India still has a lot of room for development.


----------



## gfd08

I believe that small countries must support and promote R&D in order to stand out against big countries, that can survive with a huge internal market and a large industrial sector. It will be a matter of Quantity vs. Quality

For example, Uruguay has been for a long time - and it is still - a country that depends higly on Agriculture. Unless we diversify our production and invest more on Education, Research and Innovation, we will stay underdeveloped.


----------



## isakres

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> But I guess it also comes down to how big the economy is and how big is the scientific output (#citations, #patents...) in comparison. For instance, India has a bit more citations than Denmark (6% more), but an economy almost 6 times bigger. Hence Denmark utilizes it's scientific potential to the max, while India still has a lot of room for development.


mmhh ok, I think its clear we may have an index that may measure whether the country is investig in science according to its potential or not (pretty much is what the R&D ratio as % of GDP pretends to measure i Guess), but I dont think is that clear to determine the limit where we split developed countries from developing ones.

These are the figures of R&D Investment (as % of GDP) that I could find (Please note they are from wiki and may not be updated). Anyway, they could give us an idea about how much countries are investing in science according to their capacity (GDP= Max capacity) 

Developed Countries in Blue

1.- Israel 4.2%
2.- Japan 3.3%
3.- Sweden 3.3%
4.- Finland 3.1%
5.- South Korea 3.0%
6.- United States 2.7%
7.- Austria 2.5%
8.- Denmark 2.4%
9.- Taiwan 2.3%
10.- Germany 2.3%


China 1.4%
Slovenia 1.4%
Spain 1.3%
Russia 1.0%
Hungary 0.9%
Brazil 0.9%
India 0.9%
Tunisia 0.86%
Lithuania 0.82%
Croatia 0.81%
Morocco 0.6%
Greece 0.6%
Chile 0.53%
Uruguay 0.42%
Slovack Rep 0.42%
Argentina 0.4%
Mexico 0.4%
Serbia 0.35%
Kazahstan 0.21%
Vietnam 0.19%
Colombia 0.16%
Peru 0.1%
Phillipines 0.09%
Indonesia 0.07%


Still, there are developed countries that are not spending enough $$$$ in science but overall they are considered as fully developed. It seems Greece and Portugal didnt invest heavily in Science to provide decent living standards althought we all know they arent in good shape nowadays. Would Greece and Portugal be in better shape now if they were spent more money in science in the past?, Maybe.

Spain is a major economy that seems to be lagged compared to other major Euro economies and even China is investing more money in Science. 

If somebody has updated figures just take them into account and do your own analysis. I know Brazil, Argentina and Mexico are currently investing over those figures. Brazil is the only one in Latam above 1% of GDP.


----------



## isakres

gfd08 said:


> I believe that small countries must support and promote R&D in order to stand out against big countries, that can survive with a huge internal market and a large industrial sector. It will be a matter of Quantity vs. Quality
> 
> For example, Uruguay has been for a long time - and it is still - a country that depends higly on Agriculture. Unless we diversify our production and invest more on Education, Research and Innovation, we will stay underdeveloped.


As Ulpia Serdica has said, that would help you to keep sustainable growth.


----------



## Daniel.Lucas

The brazillian economy is the most biggest in the Latin America. And the brazillian economy is the 6th most largest in the world. But i don't think that Brazil will be be a developed country soon. Just between 2022 - 2025


----------



## Daniel.Lucas

Argentina are growing up fast, and your life quality is good. So i think that Argentina can be a developed country soon. Between 2018 - 2021


----------



## snowland

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> But I guess it also comes down to how big the economy is and how big is the scientific output (#citations, #patents...) in comparison. For instance, India has a bit more citations than Denmark (6% more), but an economy almost 6 times bigger. Hence Denmark utilizes it's scientific potential to the max, while India still has a lot of room for development.


That's the point.


----------



## sc4

isakres said:


> Well Chile and Argentina has already reached developed standards as for HDI. Uruguay is right on the verge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> Whats the mix for Malaysians?


The approximate percentage is about: Malays (50.4%), Indigenous tribes (11%), Chinese (23.7%), Indians (7.1%), the rest are a mixtures of Eurasians and other ethnicities....


----------



## vladanng

Serbia will be that country for sure, im from Serbia, althought now its not developed country it has some specifications of developed country, for example internet using in Serbia, especialy capital Belgrade is higher than some other countries in that region, even developed, number of cell phones is surpasing number of citizens, Belgrade is city with highest speaking english population in central and eastern europe, aslo Serbia it is interesting was before developed country it was part of Jugoslavia, and there some things left from that period, health, maybe infrastracture and so on, and i wanna say u cant compared Serbia to countries with same gdp but in Africa or Asia, that is simple not going, is different style of life and culture, i dont wanna insult no one just to tell.


----------



## snowland

That really reminds me of Argentina and Uruguay. ^^


----------



## isakres

sc4 said:


> The approximate percentage is about: Malays (50.4%), Indigenous tribes (11%), Chinese (23.7%), Indians (7.1%), the rest are a mixtures of Eurasians and other ethnicities....


Pretty much mixed and more heterogeneous than I thought.




vladanng said:


> Serbia will be that country for sure, im from Serbia, althought now its not developed country it has some specifications of developed country, for example internet using in Serbia, especialy capital Belgrade is higher than some other countries in that region, even developed, number of cell phones is surpasing number of citizens, Belgrade is city with highest speaking english population in central and eastern europe, aslo Serbia it is interesting was before developed country it was part of Jugoslavia, and there some things left from that period, health, maybe infrastracture and so on, and i wanna say u cant compared Serbia to countries with same gdp but in Africa or Asia, that is simple not going, is different style of life and culture, i dont wanna insult no one just to tell.


You mean Serbia will be the next developing country to become developed?





snowland said:


> That really reminds me of Argentina and Uruguay. ^^


Both Argentina and Serbia (as part of former Yugoslavia) were considered developed in the past, but the reasons of the Serbian crackdown seems way very different to the Argentinean ones.

btw, Ive always loved the name "Yugoslavia". Sounds cool in Spanish.


----------



## Jonesy55

Skyprince said:


> Its unfair to compare Gini between nations with >90% dominant ethnic/people of same background to countries with say, 40% European background + 40% Mestizos/mixed + 20% Africans, East Asians & others.
> 
> It's easier to create equal society in a largely Homogenius society than in a Mixed one. The reality is, each society tend to have its own economic ideals


Do you think some ethnic groups enjoy being poor?


----------



## snowland

isakres said:


> Both Argentina and Serbia (as part of former Yugoslavia) were considered developed in the past, but the reasons of the Serbian crackdown seems way very different to the Argentinean ones.
> 
> btw, Ive always loved the name "Yugoslavia". Sounds cool in Spanish.


Yeah, that's true.

In Argentina we pronounce like "Shu'gohlabi'a". XD


----------



## isakres

snowland said:


> Yeah, that's true.
> 
> In Argentina we pronounce like "Shu'gohlabi'a". XD


:rofl:

Se pronuncia Shu'gohlabi'a visteeeeee boludoo??? jaja


----------



## snowland

:lol:


----------



## messicano

mexico is underrated because we arent white


----------



## isakres

LOL


----------



## Motul

It's because you're frijoleros.. ******* XD


----------



## Skyprince

Jonesy55 said:


> Do you think some ethnic groups enjoy being poor?


or shud I say, different expectation in life ? Not all, of course in each society there are many exceptions.


----------



## Skyprince

-double post-


----------



## musiccity

messicano said:


> mexico is underrated because we arent white


I've looked at Monterrey on street view and its very nice!


----------



## Skyprince

isakres said:


> Pretty much mixed and more heterogeneous than I thought.


Sounds close to the ethnic makeup of Brazil , but inequality not as high as Brazil. 

Yet still malaysia has 1 of the highest inequality in Asia. But it's not surprising. Though of course, there is need to improve.


----------



## snowland

I consider Malaysia to be as developed as Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary... Yet I know that you had better infrastructure, politicians and much more money enrolled (those skyscrapers are impressive). I also know that Malaysia changes much faster than here. Which is the malay poverty line index?


----------



## isakres

Skyprince said:


> Sounds close to the ethnic makeup of Brazil , but inequality not as high as Brazil.
> 
> Yet still malaysia has 1 of the highest inequality in Asia. But it's not surprising. Though of course, there is need to improve.


Indeed I just noticed Malaysia´s inequality ranks among the highest in Asia. 

What would be the cause of such inequalities In your opinion?, Is it related with having a more heterogeneous society?




musiccity said:


> I've looked at Monterrey on street view and its very nice!


:smug:

jk. Actually I think we have to work the way the world perceive us. If we look our stats we rank pretty high among emerging countries. I would also say we are a bit underrated but for a whole different reasons as those mentioned by Messicano, such reasons are certainly problems we need to fix before the world start to consider my country as a desirable place to live (althought those problems are not specific to Mexico).




Motul said:


> It's because you're frijoleros.. ******* XD



Calla Caliche y regresa a tu cafetal XD


----------



## sepul

isakres said:


> Indeed I just noticed Malaysia´s inequality ranks among the highest in Asia.
> 
> What would be the cause of such inequalities In your opinion?, Is it related with having a more heterogeneous society?


that's a VERY interesting question to ask.. sorry, I'm a Malaysian but I'm not the best person to provide you with an excellent answer.. perhaps Skyprince could help


----------



## drag

Is Poland a developed country?? If not please for explenation.


----------



## snowland

Nope, but very near to it.


----------



## Skyprince

snowland said:


> I consider Malaysia to be as developed as Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary... Yet I know that you had better infrastructure, politicians and much more money enrolled (those skyscrapers are impressive). I also know that Malaysia changes much faster than here. Which is the malay poverty line index?


I looked at photos of Chile ( skyline and ground level pics ) and it looks much much better than Malaysian cities. Chile looks like an Ultra-rich country - Impressive . Awesome ! Am not sure about Argentina though, only looked at skylines of B.Aires, Mendoza, so cannot judge the whole. 

Poverty rate here is questionable, govnt sources put at 2-3% but household salary level considered to be "poor" is pretty low. 



isakres said:


> Indeed I just noticed Malaysia´s inequality ranks among the highest in Asia.
> 
> What would be the cause of such inequalities In your opinion?, Is it related with having a more heterogeneous society?


The best explanation IMO is its heterogeneous society. Ethnic Chinese tend to be very business-oriented ( as in all Southeast Asian countries ) . Even in Thailand, Philippines and Indonesia, where ethnic Chinese make less than 10% of total population, yet they vastly dominate business & private sector. The economic dominance of ethnic Chinese is very disproportionate to their small population. 

I deal alot with ethnic Chinese in everyday life and it's very easy to notice that most of them absolutely have different expectation in life :cheers:


----------



## Ricardo Montaner

isakres said:


> btw, Ive always loved the name "Yugoslavia". Sounds cool in Spanish.


Why?


----------



## Ricardo Montaner

megacity30 said:


> And Libya, Serbia, Bosnia and Suriname have a higher GDP per capita than China today?.... :lol: I find that hard to believe, am afraid.


Yeah. Serbia, currently have a higher GDP per capita than China, both PPP and nominal.


----------



## Ricardo Montaner

Skyprince said:


> Maybe *GDP is an indicator of how much money is circulating around*...


Yes. The GDP formula is very simple:
_GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)_

But there is another concept, that is called *sustainability*. Serbian GDP is now higher than that of China, but does not mean this situation will remain next 10 years.
For example, from 2004 to 2008, a large amounts of money came to Serbia from the sale of former state property and the loans. Additionally, each year the Serbian people who work in the EU states sent to Serbia from 3 to 5 million euros. 

In recent years, 2004-, Serbia had a very high GDP growth and at the same time modest growth of industrial production. There is a concept in economics called "_*Dutch disease*_", you can find the details about it on the net. A few years ago expert economists PhD M. Kovacevic, noted the existence of Dutch disease in the Serbian economy.


Recapitulation of Serbian economy 2004 and after:
_- a very high GDP growth (a large amounts of money came to Serbia from the sale of former state property and the loans + EU workers remittances)
- relatively high growth of services_

---
on the other side
_- modest growth of industrial production
- high trade deficit (it improved little in recent years)
- relatively high unemployment
- growth of foreign debt
_


----------



## Mr.Ffff

A lot of nostradamus here, thinking they can predict how the world is going to be 10, 20 years from now.


----------



## isakres

tita01 said:


> The Philippines will be the
> leading ASEAN economy by
> 2050, according to HSBC
> experts
> 
> 
> 
> World’s top
> economies in 2050
> will be...
> 
> 
> Just accessed this very
> inspiring forecast by HSBC
> analysts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CNN.com business producer,
> Kevin Voigt
> (CNN) – The global research
> department of HSBC has
> released a report predicting
> the rise and fall of the world’s
> economies in the next 40
> years.
> The world’s top economy in
> 2050 will be China, followed by
> the United States. No
> surprises there – since China’s
> reforms in the 1980s,
> economists have said it’s not a
> question of if, but when,
> China’s collective economic
> might will top the U.S.
> But among the smaller,
> developing nations, there are
> several surprises by HSBC
> prognosticators:
> * By 2050, the Philippines will
> leapfrog 27 places to become
> the world’s 16th largest
> economy.
> * Peru’s economy, growing by
> 5.5% each year, jumping 20
> places to 26th place – ahead
> of Iran, Columbia and
> Switzerland. Other strong
> performers will be Egypt (up
> 15 places to 20th), Nigeria (up
> nine places to 37th), Turkey
> (up six spots to 12th), Malaysia
> (up 17 to 21st) and the
> Ukraine (up 19 to 45th).
> * Japan’s working population
> will contract by a world-top
> 37% in 2050 – yet HSBC
> economists predict it will still
> be toward the top performing
> economies, dropping only one
> spot to the 4th largest
> economy. India will jump
> ahead of Japan to 3rd on the
> list.
> * The big loser in the next 40
> years will be advanced
> economies in Europe, HSBC
> predicts, who will see their
> place in the economic pecking
> order erode as working
> population dwindles and
> developing economies climb.
> Only five European nations
> will be in the top 20,
> compared to eight today.
> Biggest drop will be felt
> northern Europe: Denmark to
> 56th ( -29), Norway to 48th
> ( -22), Sweden to 38th (-20)
> and Finland to 57th (-19).
> HSBC 2050 list of top
> economies (change in rank
> from 2010)
> 1) China (+2)
> 2) U.S. (-1)
> 3) India (+5)
> 4) Japan (-2)
> 5) Germany (-1)
> 6) UK (-1)
> 7) Brazil (+2)
> 8) Mexico (+5)
> 9) France (-3)
> 10) Canada (same)
> 11) Italy (-4)
> 12) Turkey (+6)
> 13) S. Korea (-2)
> 14) Spain (-2)
> 15) Russia (+2)
> 16) Philippines (+27)
> 17) Indonesia (+4)
> 18) Australia (-2)
> 19) Argentina (2)
> 20) Egypt (+15)
> 21) Malaysia (+17)
> 22) Saudi Arabia (+1)
> 23) Thailand (+6)
> 24) Netherlands (-9)
> 25) Poland (-1)
> 26) Peru (+20)
> 27) Iran (+7)
> 28) Colombia (+12
> 29) Switzerland (-9)
> 30) Pakistan (+14)
> http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/12/worlds-top-economies-in-2050-will-be/


Have news for you: Brazil overtook Britain this year and dont expect the things to change in the future :troll:

Indonesia ranked 17th?, Im more optimistic than that and would placed Indonesia among the top 10 by 2050. 

The World in 2050 according to Goldman Sachs ranks Indonesia as #5, below Brazil (4th) and above Mexico (6th).

Anyway, both are just plain projections.


----------



## Motul

Mr.Ffff said:


> A lot of nostradamus here, thinking they can predict how the world is going to be 10, 20 years from now.


Nostradami for plural? :?


----------



## Restless

Mr.Ffff said:


> A lot of nostradamus here, thinking they can predict how the world is going to be 10, 20 years from now.


I think 10 years is just about doable, because the decisions shaping that future are being made today.
And you can see enough trends and historical precedents to get a rough idea of what it will look like in 20years.

But I think any further is just too far away in the future.

And if you don't try to see 10 years in the future, how do you know where you want to be?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
In the beginning of 2011, the government and the market estimated Brazilian growth in 4.0-4.5% for the year. Now, it's on 2.7-2.9%, nobody knows yet. If we can't predict the growth for the next 12 months, how can we dare to do estimates for 2050? That's only a child's play.


----------



## t3ars_culprit

tita01 said:


> 1) China (+2)
> 2) U.S. (-1)
> 3) India (+5)
> 4) Japan (-2)
> 5) Germany (-1)
> 6) UK (-1)
> 7) Brazil (+2)
> 8) Mexico (+5)
> 9) France (-3)
> 10) Canada (same)
> 11) Italy (-4)
> 12) Turkey (+6)
> 13) S. Korea (-2)
> 14) Spain (-2)
> 15) Russia (+2)
> 16) Philippines (+27)
> 17) Indonesia (+4)
> 18) Australia (-2)
> 19) Argentina (2)
> 20) Egypt (+15)
> 21) Malaysia (+17)
> 22) Saudi Arabia (+1)
> 23) Thailand (+6)
> 24) Netherlands (-9)
> 25) Poland (-1)
> 26) Peru (+20)
> 27) Iran (+7)
> 28) Colombia (+12
> 29) Switzerland (-9)
> 30) Pakistan (+14)
> http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/12/worlds-top-economies-in-2050-will-be/


For me,
1) China
2) US / India
3) India / US
4) Brazil / Indonesia
5) Indonesia / Brazil
6) Japan
7) Germany
8) Mexico
9) Russia / France
10) France / Russia
11) South Korea
12) Iran / Turkey
13) Turkey / Iran
14) UK
15) Italy
16) Canada
17) Australia
18) Spain
19) Philippines
20) Thailand / Argentina
21) Argentina / Thailand
22) Taiwan
23) Malaysia
24) Poland
25) Peru
26) Colombia
27) Ukraine
28) South Africa
29) Vietnam
30) Pakistan


Just for fun :cheers:


----------



## Mr.Ffff

Restless said:


> I think 10 years is just about doable, because the decisions shaping that future are being made today.
> And you can see enough trends and historical precedents to get a rough idea of what it will look like in 20years.
> 
> But I think any further is just too far away in the future.
> 
> And if you don't try to see 10 years in the future, how do you know where you want to be?


Please don't try to compare the plans of an individual to the projections of a country. It's easy for a person to see his/her own future when that person know him/herself and have control of their lives. It's completely different to try to project the reality of a country decades from now.

How many people were able to predict all the financial crisis and big natural disasters that occurred in the past few years? Even a simple change in presidency/dictatorship/monarchy/whateverleader can have big effects in a country. All these things can make a big difference in the reality of a country. Some people, like economists, are actually paid to try to predict the development of countries and they still get things wrong often.

All that being said, I have nothing against making predictions as long as we acknowledge that these are just guesses. I just don't see the point of doing a lot of researches and spending a lot of time on this subject just to take a guess.



Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> In the beginning of 2011, the government and the market estimated Brazilian growth in 4.0-4.5% for the year. Now, it's on 2.7-2.9%, nobody knows yet. If we can't predict the growth for the next 12 months, how can we dare to do estimates for 2050? That's only a child's play.


I saw this news too and this is one of the things that I though about when I said that people are just "playing nostradamus".


----------



## tita01

*.........*



chornedsnorkack said:


> Why shall Philippines surpass the total GDP of Indonesia between 2010 and 2050? Considering that Indonesia surpassed the per capita GDP of Philippines between 2002 and 2003?


i don't^^ know


----------



## IgorVV

Brazil maybe in 2030-2035, not now  We will grow up faster after 2020.


----------



## Ten

For Thailand. Due to many many of political unrests and and all problems, I'm afraid we will be stagnant and it takes longer time to become developed nations. Let's say after 2040-2050. 





t3ars_culprit said:


> Chile 2015
> Uruguay 2016
> Russia 2018
> Kazakhstan 2020
> Argentina 2020
> Malaysia 2022
> Brazil 2023
> China 2028
> Thailand 2030
> Vietnam 2035
> Indonesia 2035
> Philippines 2038


----------



## Nacho_7

The next developed countries in Latin America:

1- Chile 2016-2018
2- Argentina- 2018-2020
3- Uruguay 2018
4- México 2020-2022


----------



## Acosta

Nacho_7 said:


> The next developed countries in Latin America:
> 
> 1- Chile 2016-2018
> 2- Argentina- 2018-2020
> 3- Uruguay 2018
> 4- México 2020-2022


For me:

1- Chile 2025-2030
2- Argentina 2028-2032
3- Uruguay 2030-2035
4- México +2040


----------



## henrique42

argentina just 16 years?
well, with one of every 3 argentinians being poor, and inflation of over 23 %, i suppose you forgot an one?
should it be 2128?

http://economia.uol.com.br/ultimas-...studo-3-de-cada-10-argentinos-sao-pobres.jhtm


----------



## Antonio227

The whole region has improved a lot the last 30 years.

I do not like to give numbers...But I could say that we Latinamerican people could be moderately optimist about the future.


----------



## Antonio227

henrique42 said:


> argentina just 16 years?
> well, with one of every 3 argentinians being poor, and inflation of over 23 %, i suppose you forgot an one?
> should it be 2128?
> 
> http://economia.uol.com.br/ultimas-...studo-3-de-cada-10-argentinos-sao-pobres.jhtm


:lol::lol:

Brasuca press is a joke. :lol:

PS: and your article is from 24 January 2011


----------



## henrique42

Brasuca press is a joke

no my dear, the press in argentina is a joke, after all, controlled and owned bu the government

(yes january, imagine now, after a year of 23 % inflation!)


----------



## Acosta

HAHAHA Okay, so you are trying to ruin every thread bashing Argentina down? That means, Brazil, Chile, Mexico, etc. improved a lot, but Argentina no? It's a fairy tale controlled by the government? :lol:

"A pobreza afetou 30,9% da população em 2010, um ano no qual a inflação alcançou 26,6%"...

Okay, so if poverty is 30,9% in Argentina, probably it's around 45% or more in Brazil.


----------



## henrique42

no acosta, the brazilian government is lying as well.
when 10 years ago, during the liberal government, one had to earn about 3000 reais to be part of the middle class, nowadays you are considered ''middle class'' when you earn just over 1300 reais while you need at least 2350 reais ,just to survive with any dignity. 
south american governments are just experts in distortion of numbers


----------



## Antonio227

henrique42 said:


> Brasuca press is a joke
> 
> no my dear, the press in argentina is a joke, after all, controlled by that siliconed traveca Kirchner
> 
> (yes january, imagine now, after a year of 23 % inflation!)


If you ask me, Cristina










is prettier than Dilma.










Personal opinion. :cheers:


----------



## Acosta

:lol:


----------



## Acosta

henrique42 said:


> no acosta, the brazilian government is lying as well.
> when 10 years ago, during the liberal government, one had to earn about 3000 reais to be part of the middle class, nowadays you are considered ''middle class'' when you earn just over 1300 reais while you need at least 2350 reais ,just to survive with any dignity.
> *south american governments are just experts in distortion of numbers*


That's right. In Argentina, experts agree that poverty is between 21 and 30%... In Chile, I have seen some oppositors saying that's around 25 - 29%... In Brazil, I have no idea. In Mexico, official poverty is around 34%, but when you visit the Conmeval website, you discover that it's the poverty line of one of the best ranked states.

But why you're trying to bash only Argentina down? Because there the INDEC's manipulation is clear and not hidden likewise the IBGE's one?


----------



## henrique42

Dilma is a man in a dress
Kirchner is a mummy with too much silicone
a matter of taste


----------



## henrique42

I never said that over here they are not manipulating the numbers as well.
That's why this whole discussion about who is going to be ''developed'' is quite childish
I'll rest my case now, going to do something more useful.
Abç


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

About poverty, these are the numbers of Brazilian 2010 Census for social classes/income in the country. D and E should be regarded as "poor" while C would be the lower middle class:

BRASIL
A --- 5.13%
B --- 12.25%
C --- 50.58%
D+E --- 31.91%

North
A --- 2.68%
B --- 7.60%
C --- 40.78%
D+E --- 48.93%

North East
A --- 2.45%
B --- 5.82%
C --- 38.66%
D+E --- 53.05%

Mid West
A --- 6.78%
B --- 13.55%
C --- 54.56%
D+E --- 25.09%

South East
A --- 6.67%
B --- 15.29%
C --- 55.28%
D+E --- 22.73%

South
A --- 5.54%
B --- 16.53%
C --- 59.69%
D+E --- 18.21%

Social Classes monthly family income per capita
A = over US$ 1,800.00
B = US$ 720.00 to US$ 1,800.00
C = US$ 180.00 to US$ 720.00
D = US$ 90.00 to US$ 180.00
E = 0 to US$ 90.00

^^
As we can see, poverty in Brazilian great regions ranges from 18% (Sul) to 53% (Nordeste). In the states, from 13% (Santa Catarina) to 62% (Maranhão). In smaller regions (about 300 all over the country), from 7% (Caxias do Sul region) up to 85% (many regions all over Norte and Nordeste).


----------



## Acosta

Could you please put the information by state?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Sure. States and regions:



Yuri S Andrade said:


> *Classes Sociais e Renda - Censo 2010*
> 
> 
> 
> _Legenda Somátoria A+B+C:
> 
> Azul: 85-90%
> Azul Claro: 80-85%
> Verde: 75-80%
> Verde Claro: 70-75%
> Amarelo: 65-70%
> Laranja Claro: 60-65%
> Laranja: 55-60%
> Vermelho: 50-55%
> Vermelho Escuro: 45-50%
> Cinza: 40-45%
> Cinza Escuro: 35-40%_
> 
> *Somatória Classes A+B+C*
> 
> 1. Santa Catarina --- 86,80%
> 2. Distrito Federal --- 81,91%
> 3. Rio Grande do Sul --- 81,43%
> 4. São Paulo --- 81,08%
> 5. Paraná --- 79,10%
> 6. Rio de Janeiro --- 75,76%
> 7. Goiás --- 74,12%
> 8. Mato Grosso do Sul --- 73,15%
> 9. Espírito Santo --- 72,28%
> 10. Mato Grosso --- 71,94%
> 11. Minas Gerais --- 71,25%
> *BRASIL --- 68,06%*
> 12. Rondônia --- 65,54%
> 13. Tocantins --- 57,16%
> 14. Amapá --- 56,37%
> 15. Roraima --- 55,67%
> 16. Rio Grande do Norte --- 53,36%
> 17. Acre --- 52,04%
> 18. Amazonas --- 50,60%
> 19. Sergipe --- 49,86%
> 20. Bahia --- 48,94%
> 21. Pernambuco --- 48,90%
> 22. Paraíba --- 48,03%
> 23. Ceará --- 46,31%
> 24. Pará --- 45,58%
> 25. Piauí --- 43,76%
> 26. Alagoas --- 42,76%
> 27. Maranhão --- 38,32%





Yuri S Andrade said:


> E um mapa das *Grandes Regiões*:





Yuri S Andrade said:


> (...)
> 
> Lista das regiões *acima de 1 milhão de habitantes* na *somatória A+B+C*:
> 
> Blumenau-Itajaí (SC) --- 90,96%
> São José do Rio Preto (SP) --- 86,79%
> Campinas (SP) --- 85,39%
> Ribeirão Preto (SP) --- 84,79%
> Londrina-Maringá (PR) --- 84,34%
> Curitiba (PR) --- 84,11%
> Porto Alegre (RS) --- 83,54%
> São Paulo (SP) --- 79,89%
> São José dos Campos-Taubaté (SP) --- 79,72%
> Goiânia-Anápolis (GO) --- 79,44%
> Belo Horizonte (MG) --- 77,44%
> Brasília (DF-GO) --- 77,14%
> Vitória (ES) --- 76,60%
> Rio de Janeiro (RJ) --- 76,52%
> Manaus (AM) --- 61,05%
> Salvador (BA) --- 59,99%
> Teresina (PI) --- 57,15%
> Natal (RN) --- 56,18%
> Belém (PA) --- 54,91%
> Aracaju (SE) --- 54,05%
> Fortaleza (CE) --- 53,89%
> São Luís (MA) --- 53,72%
> João Pessoa (PB) --- 53,49%
> Recife (PE) --- 52,92%
> Ilhéus-Itabuna (BA) --- 47,70%
> Caruaru (PE) --- 47,69%
> Maceió (AL) --- 46,78%
> Campina Grande (PB) --- 45,91%


Just to remember the income is _per capita_. For example, the boundary between classes C and D in a household with 4 people would be US$ 720.00. US$ 360.00 of income for each parent, let's say.

P.S. I hope Motul doesn't have a rage episode.


----------



## Motul

:rant: :madwife:


:colgate:


----------



## Acosta

Very interesting. Thanks. ^^ Really astonishing the difference between North (that includes North and Northeast) and South (that includes South, Southeast and Midwest, but speacially South and Sao Paulo).

Do you have the E tax by state? I would love to see this.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Here you go, states and metropolitan areas. Follow the quote and you'll find interesting stuff on the thread:



Yuri S Andrade said:


> Minha última atualização. Todos os grandes e médios centros urbanos brasileiros estão representados. Falta apenas fazer alguns ajustes.
> 
> *Estados*
> 
> *-------------- A --------- B --------- C --------- D --------- E
> BRASIL --- 5,13% --- 12,35% --- 50,58% --- 18,48% --- 13,43%*
> NORTE --- 2,68% --- 7,60% --- 40,78% --- 25,01% --- 23,92%
> NORDESTE --- 2,45% --- 5,82% --- 38,66% --- 26,84% --- 26,21%
> CENTRO-OESTE --- 6,78% --- 13,55% --- 54,56% --- 17,24% --- 7,85%
> SUDESTE --- 6,67% --- 15,29% --- 55,28% --- 14,83% --- 7,90%
> SUL --- 5,54% --- 16,53% --- 59,69% --- 12,46% --- 5,75%
> 
> *-------------- A --------- B --------- C --------- D --------- E*
> Acre --- 2,87% --- 8,58% --- 40,59% --- 24,14% --- 23,81%
> Rondônia --- 2,91% --- 10,33% --- 52,30% --- 20,92% --- 13,53%
> Amazonas --- 3,10% --- 7,78% --- 39,72% --- 23,91% --- 25,49%
> Roraima --- 4,13% --- 10,77% --- 40,77% --- 22,05% --- 22,25%
> Amapá --- 3,90% --- 11,59% --- 41,68% --- 24,11% --- 18,72%
> Pará --- 2,13% --- 6,00% --- 37,45% --- 26,97% --- 27,43%
> Tocantins --- 3,18% --- 8,73% --- 45,25% --- 24,53% --- 18,31%
> Maranhão --- 1,47% --- 4,16% --- 32,69% --- 27,18% --- 34,49%
> Piauí --- 1,87% --- 4,99% --- 36,90% --- 26,44% --- 29,80%
> Ceará --- 2,36% --- 5,34% --- 38,61% --- 27,41% --- 26,25%
> Rio Grande do Norte --- 4,05% --- 7,36% --- 42,89% --- 26,45% --- 20,16%
> Paraíba --- 2,44% --- 5,69% --- 39,90% --- 27,33% --- 24,64%
> Pernambuco --- 2,85% --- 6,25% --- 39,80% --- 27,46% --- 23,63%
> Alagoas --- 2,30% --- 5,65% --- 34,81% --- 28,27% --- 28,95%
> Sergipe --- 3,05% --- 7,20% --- 39,61% --- 26,46% --- 23,67%
> Bahia --- 2,57% --- 6,22% --- 40,15% --- 25,79% --- 25,26%
> Distrito Federal --- 18,96% --- 19,84% --- 43,11% --- 12,65% --- 5,37%
> Goiás --- 4,19% --- 12,01% --- 57,92% --- 18,30% --- 7,56%
> Mato Grosso --- 3,75% --- 12,19% --- 56,00% --- 18,15% --- 9,88%
> Mato Grosso do Sul --- 4,42% --- 12,60% --- 56,13% --- 18,18% --- 8,65%
> Espírito Santo --- 4,92% --- 13,05% --- 54,31% --- 18,50% --- 9,21%
> Minas Gerais --- 4,22% --- 11,18% --- 55,85% --- 19,36% --- 9,37%
> Rio de Janeiro --- 8,14% --- 15,10% --- 52,52% --- 15,87% --- 8,32%
> São Paulo --- 7,37% --- 17,49% --- 56,22% --- 11,96% --- 6,92%
> Paraná --- 5,02% --- 14,74% --- 59,34% --- 14,35% --- 6,53%
> Santa Catarina --- 5,50% --- 19,07% --- 62,23% --- 9,22% --- 3,94%
> Rio Grande do Sul --- 6,05% --- 16,77% --- 58,61% --- 12,52% --- 6,03%
> 
> 
> *Estados A+B+C*
> 
> 1. Santa Catarina --- 86,80%
> 2. Distrito Federal --- 81,91%
> 3. Rio Grande do Sul --- 81,43%
> 4. São Paulo --- 81,08%
> 5. Paraná --- 79,10%
> 6. Rio de Janeiro --- 75,76%
> 7. Goiás --- 74,12%
> 8. Mato Grosso do Sul --- 73,15%
> 9. Espírito Santo --- 72,28%
> 10. Mato Grosso --- 71,94%
> 11. Minas Gerais --- 71,25%
> 12. Rondônia --- 65,54%
> 13. Tocantins --- 57,16%
> 14. Amapá --- 56,37%
> 15. Roraima --- 55,67%
> 16. Rio Grande do Norte --- 53,36%
> 17. Acre --- 52,04%
> 18. Amazonas --- 50,60%
> 19. Sergipe --- 49,86%
> 20. Bahia --- 48,94%
> 21. Pernambuco --- 48,90%
> 22. Paraíba --- 48,03%
> 23. Ceará --- 46,31%
> 24. Pará --- 45,58%
> 25. Piauí --- 43,76%
> 26. Alagoas --- 42,76%
> 27. Maranhão --- 38,32%
> 
> 
> *-------------- A --------- B --------- C --------- D --------- E
> BRASIL --- 2.939.438 --- 7.081.422 --- 28.992.657 --- 10.591.130 --- 7.702.340*
> NORTE --- 106.620 --- 302.131 --- 1.621.275 --- 994.356 --- 950.646
> NORDESTE --- 365.670 --- 869.311 --- 5.769.165 --- 4.005.405 --- 3.911.517
> CENTRO-OESTE --- 293.812 --- 587.277 --- 2.364.801 --- 747.315 --- 340.184
> SUDESTE --- 1.680.403 --- 3.852.936 --- 13.929.547 --- 3.736.371 --- 1.989.151
> SUL --- 492.933 --- 1.469.767 --- 5.307.869 --- 1.107.683 --- 510.842
> 
> *-------------- A --------- B --------- C --------- D --------- E*
> Acre --- 5.473 --- 16.350 --- 77.376 --- 46.027	45.394
> Rondônia --- 13.248 --- 47.072 --- 238.286 --- 95.316	61.626
> Amazonas --- 24.808 --- 62.181 --- 317.584 --- 191.152	203.827
> Roraima --- 4.780 --- 12.474 --- 47.231 --- 25.548	25.782
> Amapá --- 6.015 --- 17.851 --- 64.220 --- 37.155	28.838
> Pará --- 39.627 --- 111.412 --- 696.351 --- 501.431	510.055
> Tocantins --- 12.669 --- 34.791 --- 180.227 --- 97.727	72.928
> Maranhão --- 24.369 --- 68.767 --- 540.667 --- 449.462	570.354
> Piauí --- 15.888 --- 42.341 --- 313.009 --- 224.276	252.709
> Ceará --- 55.797 --- 126.282 --- 913.339 --- 648.315	620.999
> Rio Grande do Norte --- 36.405 --- 66.227 --- 385.859 --- 237.958	181.359
> Paraíba --- 26.355 --- 61.439 --- 431.186 --- 295.334	266.304
> Pernambuco --- 72.495 --- 159.127 --- 1.013.754 --- 699.405	601.844
> Alagoas --- 19.408 --- 47.668 --- 293.439 --- 238.281	244.046
> Sergipe --- 18.009 --- 42.581 --- 234.202 --- 156.460	139.969
> Bahia --- 105.364 --- 254.879 --- 1.643.710 --- 1.055.914	1.033.933
> Distrito Federal --- 146.792 --- 153.505 --- 333.640 --- 97.936	41.573
> Goiás --- 79.091 --- 226.538 --- 1.092.484 --- 345.244	142.543
> Mato Grosso --- 34.347 --- 111.572 --- 512.453 --- 166.125	90.412
> Mato Grosso do Sul --- 33.582 --- 95.662 --- 426.224 --- 138.010	65.656
> Espírito Santo --- 54.209 --- 143.717 --- 598.079 --- 203.779	101.432
> Minas Gerais --- 254.399 --- 674.066 --- 3.366.687 --- 1.166.763	564.631
> Rio de Janeiro --- 426.521 --- 791.720 --- 2.753.588 --- 832.298	436.345
> São Paulo --- 945.274 --- 2.243.433 --- 7.211.193 --- 1.533.531	886.743
> Paraná --- 165.553 --- 486.065 --- 1.957.678 --- 473.302 --- 215.305
> Santa Catarina --- 109.638 --- 380.062 --- 1.240.293 --- 183.825 --- 78.610
> Rio Grande do Sul --- 217.742 --- 603.640 --- 2.109.898 --- 450.556 --- 216.927
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *RMs*
> 
> *----------------- A --------- B --------- C --------- D --------- E*
> 
> *Abaetetuba-Moju (PA) --- 0,49% --- 2,61% --- 28,16% --- 28,33% --- 40,42%*
> _Abaetetuba --- 0,62% --- 3,41% --- 31,15% --- 28,33% --- 36,50%_
> 
> *Aracaju (SE) --- 5,48% --- 11,36% --- 43,28% --- 24,22% --- 15,67%*
> _Aracaju --- 8,99% --- 16,76% --- 44,87% --- 19,03% --- 10,35%_
> 
> *Araçatuba-Birigüi (SP) --- 3,93% --- 14,78% --- 66,00% --- 10,83% --- 4,46%*
> _Araçatuba --- 5,77% --- 17,94% --- 61,26% --- 9,95% --- 5,08%_
> 
> *Arapiraca (AL) --- 0,70% --- 3,00% --- 32,31% --- 29,05% --- 34,95%*
> _Arapiraca --- 1,41% --- 5,38% --- 39,85% --- 29,01% --- 24,34%_
> 
> *Araraquara-São Carlos (SP) --- 5,42% --- 18,18% --- 61,79% --- 10,16% --- 4,45%*
> _Araraquara --- 7,11% --- 21,29% --- 58,91% --- 8,81% --- 3,88%_
> 
> *Bauru (SP) --- 5,95% --- 18,67% --- 59,36% --- 11,05% --- 4,98%*
> _Bauru --- 7,82% --- 21,48% --- 56,33% --- 9,65% --- 4,73%_
> 
> *Belém (PA) --- 4,21% --- 9,78% --- 45,63% --- 25,75% --- 14,62%*
> _Belém --- 6,36% --- 12,42% --- 46,07% --- 22,73% --- 12,35%_
> 
> *Belo Horizonte (MG) --- 7,79% --- 15,33% --- 55,83% --- 15,21% --- 5,83%*
> _Belo Horizonte --- 14,16% --- 21,05% --- 49,58% --- 10,75% --- 4,46%_
> 
> *Blumenau (SC) --- 5,26% --- 24,44% --- 64,29% --- 3,91% --- 2,09%*
> _Blumenau --- 7,51% --- 27,47% --- 59,17% --- 3,64% --- 2,22%_
> 
> *Boa Vista (RR) --- 5,32% --- 13,32% --- 44,77% --- 21,78% --- 14,80%*
> _Boa Vista --- 5,70% --- 14,19% --- 46,10% --- 21,57% --- 12,44%_
> 
> *Bragança-Capanema (PA) --- 0,83% --- 3,31% --- 29,12% --- 27,57% --- 39,17%*
> _Bragança --- 0,94% --- 3,80% --- 30,11% --- 29,09% --- 36,06%_
> 
> *Brasília (DF-GO-MG) --- 13,85% --- 16,43% --- 46,50% --- 16,10% --- 7,12%*
> _Brasília --- 18,96% --- 19,84% --- 43,11% --- 12,65% --- 5,37%_
> 
> *Cabo Frio-Araruama (RJ) --- 4,35% --- 13,37% --- 54,17% --- 18,65% --- 9,46%*
> _Cabo Frio --- 5,13% --- 14,30% --- 53,83% --- 17,56% --- 9,18%_
> 
> *Cachoeiro de Itapemirim (ES) --- 2,50% --- 9,85% --- 57,17% --- 20,89% --- 9,59%*
> _Cachoeiro de Itapemirim --- 3,30% --- 12,29% --- 60,71% --- 17,22% --- 6,48%_
> 
> *Campina Grande (PB) --- 2,32% --- 6,46% --- 42,93% --- 27,76% --- 20,53%*
> _Campina Grande --- 3,56% --- 9,36% --- 46,75% --- 26,47% --- 13,86%_
> 
> *Campinas (SP) --- 8,29% --- 20,85% --- 57,01% --- 8,65% --- 5,20%*
> _Campinas --- 13,12% --- 23,28% --- 49,15% --- 8,24% --- 6,11%_
> 
> *Campo dos Goytacazes (RJ) --- 3,51% --- 10,09% --- 49,75% --- 24,31% --- 12,34%*
> _Campo dos Goytacazes --- 4,17% --- 11,22% --- 49,31% --- 23,48% --- 11,82%_
> 
> *Campo Grande (MS) --- 6,93% --- 16,31% --- 55,88% --- 14,94% --- 5,94%*
> _Campo Grande --- 7,40% --- 17,15% --- 56,06% --- 14,18% --- 5,17%_
> 
> *Caruaru (PE) --- 1,14% --- 4,45% --- 43,16% --- 27,16% --- 24,09%*
> _Caruaru --- 2,02% --- 7,30% --- 50,68% --- 24,72% --- 15,28%_
> 
> *Cascavel-Toledo (PR) --- 4,40% --- 15,91% --- 62,41% --- 12,50% --- 4,78%*
> _Cascavel --- 5,62% --- 18,68% --- 60,31% --- 11,11% --- 4,29%_
> 
> *Caxias do Sul (RS) --- 6,28% --- 25,81% --- 60,39% --- 5,27% --- 2,25%*
> _Caxias do Sul --- 7,56% --- 27,64% --- 56,57% --- 5,59% --- 2,63%_
> 
> *Chapecó (SC) --- 4,56% --- 17,92% --- 63,93% --- 9,45% --- 4,14%*
> _Chapecó --- 5,67% --- 20,31% --- 62,05% --- 8,12% --- 3,84%_
> 
> *Criciúma (SC) --- 3,82% --- 16,86% --- 67,24% --- 9,02% --- 3,05%*
> _Criciúma --- 6,28% --- 20,79% --- 63,17% --- 7,35% --- 2,42%_
> 
> *Cuiabá (MT) --- 6,24% --- 15,58% --- 54,78% --- 16,15% --- 7,25%*
> _Cuiabá --- 8,62% --- 18,49% --- 53,17% --- 13,87% --- 5,85%_
> 
> *Curitiba (PR) --- 8,87% --- 20,22% --- 55,95% --- 10,11% --- 4,85%*
> _Curitiba --- 13,96% --- 26,09% --- 49,71% --- 6,51% --- 3,67%_
> 
> *Divinópolis (MG) --- 3,19% --- 12,36% --- 67,79% --- 13,01% --- 3,64%*
> _Divinópolis --- 4,46% --- 15,07% --- 64,69% --- 12,28% --- 3,50%_
> 
> *Dourados (MS) --- 4,04% --- 12,77% --- 59,00% --- 16,61% --- 7,57%*
> _Dourados --- 4,91% --- 14,78% --- 59,91% --- 14,76% --- 5,63%_
> 
> *Feira de Santana (BA) --- 2,08% --- 7,42% --- 46,47% --- 26,87% --- 17,16%*
> _Feira de Santana --- 2,56% --- 8,80% --- 48,57% --- 25,62% --- 14,45%_
> 
> *Florianópolis (SC) --- 11,93% --- 25,28% --- 53,62% --- 6,19% --- 2,97%*
> _Florianópolis --- 20,26% --- 28,80% --- 43,00% --- 4,84% --- 3,10%_
> 
> *Fortaleza (CE) --- 4,48% --- 8,88% --- 44,92% --- 27,10% --- 14,62%*
> _Fortaleza --- 6,29% --- 11,62% --- 46,77% --- 23,73% --- 11,60%_
> 
> *Foz do Iguaçu (PR) --- 4,10% --- 14,04% --- 58,56% --- 15,66% --- 7,64%*
> _Foz do Iguaçu --- 4,68% --- 14,54% --- 56,51% --- 15,90% --- 8,38%_
> 
> *Franca (SP-MG) --- 3,33% --- 13,82% --- 66,42% --- 11,98% --- 4,44%*
> _Franca --- 3,76% --- 15,18% --- 66,95% --- 10,17% --- 3,93%_
> 
> *Goiânia-Anápolis (GO) --- 6,51% --- 15,55% --- 57,74% --- 14,82% --- 5,37%*
> _Goiânia --- 10,26% --- 20,24% --- 54,15% --- 10,86% --- 4,47%_
> 
> *Governador Valadares (MG) --- 3,19% --- 10,73% --- 53,46% --- 22,30% --- 10,33%*
> _Governador Valadares --- 3,52% --- 11,72% --- 54,49% --- 21,05% --- 9,23%_
> 
> *Guaratinguetá-Lorena-Cruzeiro (SP) --- 4,61% --- 14,81% --- 56,56% --- 16,67% --- 7,35%*
> _Guaratinguetá --- 7,06% --- 17,63% --- 54,97% --- 14,37% --- 5,96%_
> 
> *Ilhéus-Itabuna (BA) --- 2,59% --- 7,76% --- 43,92% --- 26,93% --- 18,81%*
> _Ilhéus --- 3,26% --- 9,02% --- 44,29% --- 26,59% --- 16,84%_
> 
> *Imperatriz (MA-TO) --- 2,05% --- 6,33% --- 44,68% --- 28,27% --- 18,66%*
> _Imperatriz --- 2,87% --- 8,44% --- 49,78% --- 26,80% --- 12,11%_
> 
> *Ipatinga (MG) --- 2,93% --- 12,52% --- 57,41% --- 19,20% --- 7,94%*
> _Ipatinga --- 4,08% --- 15,61% --- 58,43% --- 15,96% --- 5,93%_
> 
> *Itajaí-Balneário Camboriú (SC) --- 6,85% --- 22,07% --- 60,13% --- 7,62% --- 3,32%*
> _Itajaí --- 5,57% --- 22,45% --- 61,32% --- 7,71% --- 2,94%_
> 
> *João Pessoa (PB) --- 5,08% --- 9,67% --- 41,81% --- 25,88% --- 17,56%*
> _João Pessoa --- 7,97% --- 14,33% --- 45,66% --- 21,11% --- 10,93%_
> 
> *Joinville (SC) --- 5,61% --- 22,14% --- 62,56% --- 6,83% --- 2,86%*
> _Joinville --- 6,67% --- 22,93% --- 61,05% --- 6,51% --- 2,83%_
> 
> *Juazeiro do Norte-Crato (CE) --- 1,35% --- 4,22% --- 38,83% --- 29,75% --- 25,86%*
> _Juazeiro do Norte --- 1,70% --- 4,97% --- 42,70% --- 31,73% --- 18,90%_
> 
> *Juiz de Fora (MG) --- 6,68% --- 16,22% --- 57,06% --- 14,86% --- 5,18%*
> _Juiz de Fora --- 7,91% --- 18,18% --- 56,66% --- 12,83% --- 4,43%_
> 
> *Lages (SC) --- 3,74% --- 14,08% --- 58,65% --- 16,62% --- 6,92%*
> _Lages --- 4,62% --- 15,88% --- 58,26% --- 15,42% --- 5,81%_
> 
> *Lajeado (RS) --- 4,48% --- 19,81% --- 68,11% --- 5,90% --- 1,71%*
> _Lajeado --- 7,26% --- 24,27% --- 61,77% --- 5,14% --- 1,57%_
> 
> *Londrina (PR) --- 4,88% --- 15,72% --- 62,66% --- 12,00% --- 4,74%*
> _Londrina --- 7,64% --- 19,86% --- 57,75% --- 10,05% --- 4,69%_
> 
> *Macaé-Rio das Ostras (RJ) --- 6,86% --- 18,37% --- 53,77% --- 13,65% --- 7,35%*
> _Macaé --- 7,45% --- 18,44% --- 53,52% --- 13,20% --- 7,40%_
> 
> *Macapá (AP) --- 4,46% --- 12,87% --- 42,47% --- 23,20% --- 17,01%*
> _Macapá --- 5,25% --- 14,38% --- 43,49% --- 21,89% --- 15,00%_
> 
> *Maceió (AL) --- 4,39% --- 9,43% --- 40,38% --- 27,51% --- 18,30%*
> _Maceió --- 5,81% --- 11,77% --- 42,94% --- 25,14% --- 14,35%_
> 
> *Manaus (AM) --- 4,50% --- 10,79% --- 47,97% --- 22,83% --- 13,90%*
> _Manaus --- 4,68% --- 11,15% --- 48,67% --- 22,48% --- 13,01%_
> 
> *Marabá (PA) --- 1,78% --- 6,51% --- 39,59% --- 26,43% --- 25,69%*
> _Marabá --- 2,25% --- 8,15% --- 43,89% --- 25,15% --- 20,56%_
> 
> *Marília (SP) --- 4,76% --- 15,50% --- 61,30% --- 13,25% --- 5,19%*
> _Marília --- 5,93% --- 17,94% --- 59,90% --- 11,33% --- 4,90%_
> 
> *Maringá (PR) --- 4,71% --- 16,75% --- 64,98% --- 10,11% --- 3,44%*
> _Maringá --- 7,90% --- 23,75% --- 59,64% --- 6,10% --- 2,61%_
> 
> *Mogi Guaçu-Mogi Mirim (SP) --- 3,78% --- 16,84% --- 64,54% --- 10,47% --- 4,37%*
> _Mogi Guaçu --- 2,83% --- 16,29% --- 65,58% --- 10,79% --- 4,51%_
> 
> *Montes Claros (MG) --- 3,02% --- 9,09% --- 50,77% --- 25,37% --- 11,74%*
> _Montes Claros --- 3,48% --- 10,21% --- 52,32% --- 24,31% --- 9,68%_
> 
> *Mossoró (RN) --- 2,28% --- 7,83% --- 48,17% --- 27,19% --- 14,53%*
> _Mossoró --- 2,86% --- 9,33% --- 51,19% --- 25,56% --- 11,06%_
> 
> *Natal (RN) --- 5,35% --- 10,91% --- 45,21% --- 24,04% --- 14,49%*
> _Natal --- 7,92% --- 13,57% --- 48,24% --- 20,78% --- 9,49%_
> 
> *Nova Friburgo (RJ) --- 4,15% --- 12,38% --- 61,48% --- 15,65% --- 6,34%*
> _Nova Friburgo --- 5,27% --- 14,33% --- 63,98% --- 11,99% --- 4,42%_
> 
> *Palmas (TO) --- 7,59% --- 16,95% --- 49,80% --- 17,70% --- 7,96%*
> _Palmas --- 8,62% --- 18,49% --- 50,27% --- 15,93% --- 6,68%_
> 
> *Paranaguá (PR) --- 3,59% --- 13,81% --- 56,08% --- 17,52% --- 9,01%*
> _Paranaguá --- 3,64% --- 14,55% --- 56,81% --- 17,19% --- 7,82%_
> 
> *Passo Fundo (RS) --- 5,72% --- 18,36% --- 61,28% --- 10,31% --- 4,33%*
> _Passo Fundo --- 7,34% --- 20,15% --- 58,65% --- 9,66% --- 4,20%_
> 
> *Pelotas (RS) --- 5,11% --- 14,29% --- 57,36% --- 15,53% --- 7,70%*
> _Pelotas --- 5,70% --- 15,43% --- 57,18% --- 14,53% --- 7,17%_
> 
> *Petrolina-Juazeiro (PE-BA) --- 2,25% --- 6,49% --- 42,57% --- 29,68% --- 19,01%*
> _Petrolina --- 2,78% --- 7,33% --- 43,91% --- 28,98% --- 17,00%_
> 
> *Piracicaba-Limeira-Rio Claro (SP) --- 5,37% --- 19,02% --- 61,03% --- 9,76% --- 4,82%*
> _Piracicaba --- 7,65% --- 22,66% --- 56,12% --- 8,44% --- 5,13%_
> 
> *Ponta Grossa (PR) --- 4,19% --- 13,83% --- 58,68% --- 16,53% --- 6,77%*
> _Ponta Grossa --- 4,86% --- 15,43% --- 59,11% --- 14,95% --- 5,63%_
> 
> *Porto Alegre (RS) --- 8,90% --- 19,10% --- 56,22% --- 10,67% --- 5,11%*
> _Porto Alegre --- 18,54% --- 25,73% --- 43,08% --- 7,89% --- 4,71%_
> 
> *Porto Velho (RO) --- 5,46% --- 16,03% --- 52,86% --- 16,30% --- 9,35%*
> _Porto Velho --- 5,66% --- 16,46% --- 53,01% --- 15,88% --- 8,97%_
> 
> *Presidente Prudente (SP) --- 4,54% --- 15,11% --- 61,98% --- 13,27% --- 5,10%*
> _Presidente Prudente --- 6,86% --- 18,62% --- 59,90% --- 10,39% --- 4,22%_
> 
> *Recife (PE) --- 4,71% --- 8,98% --- 42,61% --- 26,71% --- 16,99%*
> _Recife --- 10,01% --- 13,90% --- 41,30% --- 21,74% --- 13,03%_
> 
> *Ribeirão Preto (SP) --- 7,00% --- 20,27% --- 58,15% --- 9,53% --- 5,04%*
> _Ribeirão Preto --- 10,17% --- 24,08% --- 54,01% --- 7,42% --- 4,31%_
> 
> *Rio Branco (AC) --- 4,16% --- 11,66% --- 46,42% --- 23,59% --- 14,17%*
> _Rio Branco --- 4,54% --- 12,59% --- 47,32% --- 23,02% --- 12,52%_
> 
> *Rio de Janeiro (RJ) --- 9,24% --- 15,70% --- 51,62% --- 15,15% --- 8,29%*
> _Rio de Janeiro --- 14,26% --- 19,84% --- 47,36% --- 11,71% --- 6,83%_
> 
> *Rio Grande (RS) --- 4,51% --- 15,04% --- 57,25% --- 15,94% --- 7,26%*
> _Rio Grande --- 5,00% --- 16,38% --- 57,09% --- 14,87% --- 6,66%_
> 
> *Rio Verde (GO) --- 3,93% --- 13,04% --- 61,19% --- 15,86% --- 5,97%*
> _Rio Verde --- 4,36% --- 14,04% --- 60,84% --- 14,92% --- 5,84%_
> 
> *Rondonópolis (MT) --- 4,03% --- 13,58% --- 59,19% --- 16,60% --- 6,60%*
> _Rondonópolis --- 4,33% --- 14,30% --- 59,42% --- 15,91% --- 6,05%_
> 
> *Salvador (BA) --- 6,10% --- 11,58% --- 46,00% --- 21,83% --- 14,48%*
> _Salvador --- 7,45% --- 13,10% --- 46,53% --- 20,46% --- 12,43%_
> 
> *Santa Cruz do Sul-Venâncio Aires (RS) --- 3,67% --- 14,28% --- 63,45% --- 12,36% --- 6,25%*
> _Santa Cruz do Sul --- 6,36% --- 20,06% --- 61,34% --- 8,56% --- 3,68%_
> 
> *Santa Maria (RS) --- 8,02% --- 19,39% --- 54,15% --- 12,69% --- 5,76%*
> _Santa Maria --- 9,27% --- 21,43% --- 52,90% --- 11,38% --- 5,02%_
> 
> *Santarém (PA) --- 1,52% --- 5,56% --- 38,82% --- 26,70% --- 27,40%*
> _Santarém --- 1,56% --- 5,69% --- 39,31% --- 26,85% --- 26,58%_
> 
> *São José do Rio Preto (SP) --- 5,51% --- 18,88% --- 62,75% --- 8,70% --- 4,15%*
> _São José do Rio Preto --- 7,84% --- 22,73% --- 57,84% --- 7,11% --- 4,45%_
> 
> *São José dos Campos-Taubaté (SP) --- 7,01% --- 18,50% --- 56,31% --- 12,26% --- 5,92%*
> _São José dos Campos --- 9,74% --- 20,53% --- 54,13% --- 10,26% --- 5,35%_
> 
> *São Luís (MA) --- 4,00% --- 9,28% --- 43,20% --- 25,88% --- 17,64%*
> _São Luís --- 5,38% --- 11,50% --- 45,85% --- 24,51% --- 12,76%_
> 
> *São Paulo (SP) --- 9,22% --- 18,09% --- 52,37% --- 12,11% --- 8,21%*
> _São Paulo --- 13,02% --- 19,43% --- 48,70% --- 10,66% --- 8,07%_
> 
> *Sorocaba-Itu (SP) --- 5,26% --- 17,74% --- 60,33% --- 11,42% --- 5,24%*
> _Sorocaba --- 7,17% --- 20,85% --- 57,25% --- 9,83% --- 4,90%_
> 
> *Teresina (PI-MA) --- 3,90% --- 8,95% --- 43,16% --- 27,22% --- 16,78%*
> _Teresina --- 5,11% --- 11,08% --- 45,85% --- 25,51% --- 12,45%_
> 
> *Tubarão-Laguna (SC) --- 3,60% --- 16,44% --- 66,61% --- 10,01% --- 3,35%*
> _Tubarão --- 5,33% --- 20,63% --- 64,84% --- 7,00% --- 2,21%_
> 
> *Uberaba (MG-SP) --- 5,42% --- 16,77% --- 62,22% --- 11,54% --- 4,04%*
> _Uberaba --- 5,93% --- 17,47% --- 61,67% --- 11,05% --- 3,88%_
> 
> *Uberlândia (MG) --- 5,71% --- 17,53% --- 61,55% --- 11,49% --- 3,72%*
> _Uberlândia --- 6,15% --- 18,30% --- 60,97% --- 10,86% --- 3,69%_
> 
> *Vitória (ES) --- 7,35% --- 16,67% --- 53,72% --- 15,27% --- 6,99%*
> _Vitória --- 19,92% --- 25,32% --- 40,47% --- 9,35% --- 4,95%_
> 
> *Vitória da Conquista (BA) --- 2,10% --- 6,22% --- 42,93% --- 27,61% --- 21,14%*
> _Vitória da Conquista --- 2,75% --- 7,90% --- 46,07% --- 26,19% --- 17,09%_
> 
> *Volta Redonda-Barra Mansa (RJ) --- 4,15% --- 14,53% --- 58,81% --- 15,87% --- 6,64%*
> _Volta Redonda --- 5,04% --- 18,27% --- 58,24% --- 12,88% --- 5,58%_
> 
> 
> 
> *RMs A+B+C* _(negrito acima de 1 milhão, cores por região)_:
> 
> Blumenau (SC) --- 93,99%
> Caxias do Sul (RS) --- 92,48%
> Lajeado (RS) --- 92,40%
> Florianópolis (SC) --- 90,83%
> Joinville (SC) --- 90,31%
> Itajaí-Balneário Camboriú (SC) --- 89,05%
> Criciúma (SC) --- 87,92%
> São José do Rio Preto (SP) --- 87,14%
> Tubarão-Laguna (SC) --- 86,65%
> Maringá (PR) --- 86,44%
> Chapecó (SC) --- 86,41%
> *Campinas (SP) --- 86,15%
> Piracicaba-Limeira-Rio Claro (SP) --- 85,42%
> Ribeirão Preto (SP) --- 85,42%*
> Araraquara-São Carlos (SP) --- 85,39%
> Passo Fundo (RS) --- 85,36%
> Mogi Guaçu-Mogi Mirim (SP) --- 85,16%
> *Curitiba (PR) --- 85,04%*
> Uberlândia (MG) --- 84,79%
> Araçatuba-Birigüi (SP) --- 84,71%
> Uberaba (MG-SP) --- 84,41%
> *Porto Alegre (RS) --- 84,22%*
> Bauru (SP) --- 83,98%
> Franca (SP-MG) --- 83,57%
> Divinópolis (MG) --- 83,34%
> *Sorocaba-Itu (SP) --- 83,33%*
> *Londrina (PR) --- 83,26*%
> Cascavel-Toledo (PR) --- 82,72%
> *São José dos Campos-Taubaté (SP) --- 81,82%*
> Presidente Prudente (SP) --- 81,63%
> Marília (SP) --- 81,56%
> Santa Maria (RS) --- 81,56%
> Santa Cruz do Sul-Venâncio Aires (RS) --- 81,40%
> Juiz de Fora (MG) --- 79,96%
> *Goiânia-Anápolis (GO) --- 79,80%*
> *São Paulo (SP) --- 79,68%*
> Campo Grande (MS) --- 79,12%
> Macaé-Rio das Ostras (RJ) --- 79,00%
> *Belo Horizonte (MG) --- 78,95%*
> Rio Verde (GO) --- 78,16%
> Nova Friburgo (RJ) --- 78,01%
> *Vitória (ES) --- 77,74%*
> Volta Redonda-Barra Mansa (RJ) --- 77,49%
> Rondonópolis (MT) --- 76,80%
> Rio Grande (RS) --- 76,80%
> *Brasília (DF-GO-MG) --- 76,78%*
> Pelotas (RS) --- 76,76%
> Ponta Grossa (PR) --- 76,70%
> Foz do Iguaçu (PR) --- 76,70%
> Cuiabá (MT) --- 76,60%
> *Rio de Janeiro (RJ) --- 76,56%*
> Lages (SC) --- 76,47%
> Guaratinguetá-Lorena-Cruzeiro (SP) --- 75,98%
> Dourados (MS) --- 75,81%
> Porto Velho (RO) --- 74,35%
> Palmas (TO) --- 74,34%
> Paranaguá (PR) --- 73,48%
> Ipatinga (MG) --- 72,86%
> Cabo Frio-Araruama (RJ) --- 71,89%
> Cachoeiro de Itapemirim (ES) --- 69,52%
> Governador Valadares (MG) --- 67,38%
> *Salvador (BA) --- 63,68%*
> Boa Vista (RR) --- 63,41%
> Campo dos Goytacazes (RJ) --- 63,35%
> *Manaus (AM) --- 63,26%*
> Montes Claros (MG) --- 62,88%
> Rio Branco (AC) --- 62,24%
> *Natal (RN) --- 61,47%
> Aracaju (SE) --- 60,12%*
> Macapá (AP) --- 59,80%
> *Belém (PA) --- 59,62%*
> Mossoró (RN) --- 58,28%
> *Fortaleza (CE) --- 58,28%
> João Pessoa (PB) --- 56,56%
> São Luís (MA) --- 56,48%
> Recife (PE) --- 56,30%
> Teresina (PI-MA) --- 56,01%*
> Feira de Santana (BA) --- 55,97%
> Ilhéus-Itabuna (BA) --- 54,27%
> *Maceió (AL) --- 54,20%*
> Imperatriz (MA-TO) --- 53,06%
> Campina Grande (PB) --- 51,71%
> Petrolina-Juazeiro (PE-BA) --- 51,31%
> Vitória da Conquista (BA) --- 51,25%
> Caruaru (PE) --- 48,75%
> Marabá (PA) --- 47,88%
> Santarém (PA) --- 45,90%
> Juazeiro do Norte-Crato (CE) --- 44,40%
> Arapiraca (AL) --- 36,01%
> Bragança-Capanema (PA) --- 33,26%
> Abaetetuba-Moju (PA) --- 31,26%
> 
> 
> 
> *RMs números absolutos*
> 
> *-------------- A --------- B --------- C --------- D --------- E*
> 
> *Abaetetuba-Moju (PA) --- 287 --- 1.524 --- 16.460 --- 16.558 --- 23.626*
> _Abaetetuba --- 191 --- 1.053 --- 9.631 --- 8.757 --- 11.284_
> 
> *Aracaju (SE) --- 16.055 --- 33.313 --- 126.912 --- 71.012 --- 45.948*
> _Aracaju --- 15.227 --- 28.388 --- 76.027 --- 32.242 --- 17.538_
> 
> *Araçatuba-Birigüi (SP) --- 6.242 --- 23.473 --- 104.833 --- 17.206 --- 7.089*
> _Araçatuba --- 3.495 --- 10.868 --- 37.119 --- 6.031 --- 3.080_
> 
> *Arapiraca (AL) --- 1.303 --- 5.570 --- 59.944 --- 53.895 --- 64.843*
> _Arapiraca --- 823 --- 3.136 --- 23.214 --- 16.898 --- 14.180_
> 
> *Araraquara-São Carlos (SP) --- 12.067 --- 40.486 --- 137.620 --- 22.621 --- 9.920*
> _Araraquara --- 4.891 --- 14.637 --- 40.495 --- 6.054 --- 2.669_
> 
> *Bauru (SP) --- 10.429 --- 32.728 --- 104.083 --- 19.377 --- 8.724*
> _Bauru --- 8.588 --- 23.585 --- 61.848 --- 10.592 --- 5.192_
> 
> *Belém (PA) --- 27.252 --- 63.335 --- 295.362 --- 166.689 --- 94.660*
> _Belém --- 23.474 --- 45.804 --- 169.960 --- 83.834 --- 45.576_
> 
> *Belo Horizonte (MG) --- 130.578 --- 257.016 --- 935.793 --- 254.922 --- 97.729*
> _Belo Horizonte --- 107.825 --- 160.257 --- 377.401 --- 81.810 --- 33.973_
> 
> *Blumenau (SC) --- 11.388 --- 52.883 --- 139.108 --- 8.467 --- 4.516*
> _Blumenau --- 7.591 --- 27.762 --- 59.800 --- 3.675 --- 2.244_
> 
> *Boa Vista (RR) --- 4.455 --- 11.157 --- 37.486 --- 18.241 --- 12.394*
> _Boa Vista --- 4.341 --- 10.817 --- 35.140 --- 16.441 --- 9.484_
> 
> *Bragança-Capanema (PA) --- 610 --- 2.426 --- 21.341 --- 20.209 --- 28.710*
> _Bragança --- 246 --- 997 --- 7.896 --- 7.628 --- 9.455_
> 
> *Brasília (DF-GO-MG) --- 153.760 --- 182.433 --- 516.152 --- 178.724 --- 78.989*
> _Brasília --- 146.792 --- 153.505 --- 333.640 --- 97.936 --- 41.573_
> 
> *Cabo Frio-Araruama (RJ) --- 6.747 --- 20.750 --- 84.076 --- 28.954 --- 14.681*
> _Cabo Frio --- 3.049 --- 8.499 --- 31.995 --- 10.435 --- 5.458_
> 
> *Cachoeiro de Itapemirim (ES) --- 3.059 --- 12.065 --- 70.013 --- 25.584 --- 11.750*
> _Cachoeiro de Itapemirim --- 1.966 --- 7.311 --- 36.125 --- 10.246 --- 3.859_
> 
> *Campina Grande (PB) ---4.340 --- 12.092 --- 80.393 --- 51.985 --- 38.435*
> _Campina Grande --- 3.976 --- 10.470 --- 52.286 --- 29.609 --- 15.501_
> 
> *Campinas (SP) --- 74.263 --- 186.662 --- 510.473 --- 77.500 --- 46.576*
> _Campinas --- 45.683 --- 81.097 --- 171.175 --- 28.701 --- 21.283_
> 
> *Campo dos Goytacazes (RJ) --- 6.451 --- 18.516 --- 91.333 --- 44.633 --- 22.664*
> _Campo dos Goytacazes --- 5.939 --- 15.971 --- 70.214 --- 33.434 --- 16.825_
> 
> *Campo Grande (MS) --- 18.898 --- 44.483 --- 152.404 --- 40.757 --- 16.199*
> _Campo Grande --- 18.473 --- 42.858 --- 140.023 --- 35.428 --- 12.905_
> 
> *Caruaru (PE) --- 2.905 --- 11.339 --- 110.088 --- 69.286 --- 61.448*
> _Caruaru --- 1.950 --- 7.026 --- 48.801 --- 23.803 --- 14.717_
> 
> *Cascavel-Toledo (PR) --- 7.245 --- 26.169 --- 102.666 --- 20.559 --- 7.866*
> _Cascavel --- 5.123 --- 17.024 --- 54.960 --- 10.126 --- 3.902_
> 
> *Caxias do Sul (RS) --- 17.246 --- 70.847 --- 165.774 --- 14.457 --- 6.170*
> _Caxias do Sul --- 11.097 --- 40.580 --- 83.068 --- 8.206 --- 3.855_
> 
> *Chapecó (SC) --- 4.857 --- 19.094 --- 68.121 --- 10.074 --- 4.412*
> _Chapecó --- 3.335 --- 11.935 --- 36.474 --- 4.770 --- 2.259_
> 
> *Criciúma (SC) --- 6.036 --- 26.663 --- 106.319 --- 14.268 --- 4.828*
> _Criciúma --- 3.864 --- 12.795 --- 38.884 --- 4.526 --- 1.487_
> 
> *Cuiabá (MT) --- 16.151 --- 40.294 --- 141.704 --- 41.778 --- 18.761*
> _Cuiabá --- 14.283 --- 30.623 --- 88.079 --- 22.975 --- 9.699_
> 
> *Curitiba (PR) --- 89.299 --- 203.452 --- 563.100 --- 101.799 --- 48.789*
> _Curitiba --- 80.378 --- 150.237 --- 286.283 --- 37.475 --- 21.156_
> 
> *Divinópolis (MG) --- 3.541 --- 13.703 --- 75.160 --- 14.426 --- 4.036*
> _Divinópolis --- 2.972 --- 10.035 --- 43.090 --- 8.177 --- 2.332_
> 
> *Dourados (MS) --- 3.505 --- 11.072 --- 51.152 --- 14.401 --- 6.562*
> _Dourados --- 2.989 --- 8.995 --- 36.458 --- 8.984 --- 3.424_
> 
> *Feira de Santana (BA) --- 4.487 --- 15.993 --- 100.137 --- 57.897 --- 36.978*
> _Feira de Santana --- 4.169 --- 14.338 --- 79.091 --- 41.729 --- 23.525_
> 
> *Florianópolis (SC) --- 37.802 --- 80.094 --- 169.838 --- 19.623 --- 9.410*
> _Florianópolis --- 29.814 --- 42.382 --- 63.271 --- 7.118 --- 4.563_
> 
> *Fortaleza (CE) --- 46.793 --- 92.766 --- 469.246 --- 283.092 --- 152.771*
> _Fortaleza --- 44.643 --- 82.476 --- 331.995 --- 168.460 --- 82.323_
> 
> *Foz do Iguaçu (PR) --- 4.440 --- 15.223 --- 63.478 --- 16.981 --- 8.285*
> _Foz do Iguaçu --- 3.701 --- 11.505 --- 44.713 --- 12.582 --- 6.627_
> 
> *Franca (SP-MG) --- 4.147 --- 17.199 --- 82.653 --- 14.913 --- 5.529*
> _Franca --- 3.678 --- 14.839 --- 65.431 --- 9.944 --- 3.841_
> 
> *Goiânia-Anápolis (GO) --- 52.084 --- 124.418 --- 462.009 --- 118.590 --- 42.994*
> _Goiânia --- 43.389 --- 85.553 --- 228.895 --- 45.887 --- 18.903_
> 
> *Governador Valadares (MG) --- 2.975 --- 10.009 --- 49.868 --- 20.801 --- 9.632*
> _Governador Valadares --- 2.871 --- 9.572 --- 44.506 --- 17.191 --- 7.536_
> 
> *Guaratinguetá-Lorena-Cruzeiro (SP) --- 5.647 --- 18.154 --- 69.338 --- 20.436 --- 9.008*
> _Guaratinguetá --- 2.413 --- 6.025 --- 18.783 --- 4.910 --- 2.037_
> 
> *Ilhéus-Itabuna (BA) --- 4.161 --- 12.491 --- 70.680 --- 43.333 --- 30.270*
> _Ilhéus --- 1.823 --- 5.049 --- 24.791 --- 14.882 --- 9.426_
> 
> *Imperatriz (MA-TO) --- 2.120 --- 6.543 --- 46.170 --- 29.206 --- 19.285*
> _Imperatriz --- 1.967 --- 5.785 --- 34.130 --- 18.372 --- 8.306_
> 
> *Ipatinga (MG) --- 4.921 --- 20.994 --- 96.276 --- 32.192 --- 13.308*
> _Ipatinga --- 2.975 --- 11.372 --- 42.573 --- 11.628 --- 4.319_
> 
> *Itajaí-Balneário Camboriú (SC) --- 12.610 --- 40.614 --- 110.648 --- 14.029 --- 6.115*
> _Itajaí --- 3.217 --- 12.965 --- 35.412 --- 4.453 --- 1.700_
> 
> *João Pessoa (PB) --- 18.873 --- 35.904 --- 155.228 --- 96.098 --- 65.198*
> _João Pessoa --- 16.988 --- 30.556 --- 97.376 --- 45.017 --- 23.306_
> 
> *Joinville (SC) --- 14.729 --- 58.165 --- 164.372 --- 17.956 --- 7.525*
> _Joinville --- 10.708 --- 36.838 --- 98.075 --- 10.463 --- 4.541_
> 
> *Juazeiro do Norte-Crato (CE) --- 2.306 --- 7.177 --- 66.101 --- 50.646 --- 44.023*
> _Juazeiro do Norte --- 1.173 --- 3.421 --- 29.405 --- 21.849 --- 13.014_
> 
> *Juiz de Fora (MG) --- 14.342 --- 34.817 --- 122.443 --- 31.885 --- 11.116*
> _Juiz de Fora --- 13.475 --- 30.978 --- 96.569 --- 21.862 --- 7.551_
> 
> *Lages (SC) --- 2.502 --- 9.420 --- 39.251 --- 11.122 --- 4.629*
> _Lages --- 2.279 --- 7.830 --- 28.718 --- 7.603 --- 2.866_
> 
> *Lajeado (RS) --- 3.156 --- 13.952 --- 47.974 --- 4.154 --- 1.205*
> _Lajeado --- 1.811 --- 6.058 --- 15.419 --- 1.282 --- 391_
> 
> *Londrina (PR) --- 17.026 --- 54.874 --- 218.661 --- 41.861 --- 16.552*
> _Londrina --- 12.596 --- 32.753 --- 95.237 --- 16.582 --- 7.734_
> 
> *Macaé-Rio das Ostras (RJ) --- 8.040 --- 21.525 --- 63.007 --- 15.998 --- 8.612*
> _Macaé --- 4.984 --- 12.331 --- 35.795 --- 8.827 --- 4.946_
> 
> *Macapá (AP) --- 5.406 --- 15.608 --- 51.493 --- 28.128 --- 20.620*
> _Macapá --- 4.954 --- 13.578 --- 41.071 --- 20.670 --- 14.163_
> 
> *Maceió (AL) --- 16.699 --- 35.873 --- 153.693 --- 104.692 --- 69.654*
> _Maceió --- 15.914 --- 32.262 --- 117.668 --- 68.881 --- 39.315_
> 
> *Manaus (AM) --- 21.717 --- 52.061 --- 231.440 --- 110.161 --- 67.063*
> _Manaus --- 21.582 --- 51.376 --- 224.264 --- 103.585 --- 59.987_
> 
> *Marabá (PA) --- 1.529 --- 5.599 --- 34.073 --- 22.746 --- 22.108*
> _Marabá --- 1.359 --- 4.924 --- 26.531 --- 15.205 --- 12.431_
> 
> *Marília (SP) --- 5.196 --- 16.922 --- 66.918 --- 14.468 --- 5.666*
> _Marília --- 4.074 --- 12.328 --- 41.152 --- 7.787 --- 3.364_
> 
> *Maringá (PR) --- 11.032 --- 39.200 --- 152.041 --- 23.668 --- 8.050*
> _Maringá --- 9.223 --- 27.749 --- 69.653 --- 7.121 --- 3.043_
> 
> *Mogi Guaçu-Mogi Mirim (SP) --- 4.073 --- 18.136 --- 69.529 --- 11.275 --- 4.710*
> _Mogi Guaçu --- 1.181 --- 6.804 --- 27.395 --- 4.508 --- 1.886_
> 
> *Montes Claros (MG) --- 3.863 --- 11.625 --- 64.899 --- 32.430 --- 15.011*
> _Montes Claros --- 3.624 --- 10.616 --- 54.423 --- 25.285 --- 10.073_
> 
> *Mossoró (RN) --- 2.222 --- 7.629 --- 46.906 --- 26.482 --- 14.146*
> _Mossoró --- 2.101 --- 6.845 --- 37.545 --- 18.744 --- 8.110_
> 
> *Natal (RN) --- 23.009 --- 46.924 --- 194.373 --- 103.360 --- 62.296*
> _Natal --- 18.658 --- 31.943 --- 113.597 --- 48.924 --- 22.343_
> 
> *Nova Friburgo (RJ) --- 4.084 --- 12.188 --- 60.507 --- 15.399 --- 6.238*
> _Nova Friburgo --- 3.349 --- 9.100 --- 40.624 --- 7.613 --- 2.805_
> 
> *Palmas (TO) --- 6.317 --- 14.102 --- 41.444 --- 14.730 --- 6.621*
> _Palmas --- 5.921 --- 12.698 --- 34.519 --- 10.937 --- 4.590_
> 
> *Paranaguá (PR) --- 2.874 --- 11.072 --- 44.950 --- 14.041 --- 7.222*
> _Paranaguá --- 1.474 --- 5.889 --- 22.996 --- 6.957 --- 3.165_
> 
> *Passo Fundo (RS) --- 6.602 --- 21.209 --- 70.770 --- 11.907 --- 5.002*
> _Passo Fundo --- 4.529 --- 12.441 --- 36.212 --- 5.966 --- 2.594_
> 
> *Pelotas (RS) --- 6.695 --- 18.713 --- 75.103 --- 20.340 --- 10.085*
> _Pelotas --- 6.490 --- 17.575 --- 65.157 --- 16.552 --- 8.162_
> 
> *Petrolina-Juazeiro (PE-BA) --- 3.319 --- 9.573 --- 62.792 --- 43.770 --- 28.043*
> _Petrolina --- 2.230 --- 5.891 --- 35.275 --- 23.280 --- 13.656_
> 
> *Piracicaba-Limeira-Rio Claro (SP) --- 20.343 --- 72.112 --- 231.408 --- 37.010 --- 18.275*
> _Piracicaba --- 8.623 --- 25.543 --- 63.272 --- 9.516 --- 5.786_
> 
> *Ponta Grossa (PR) --- 5.452 --- 17.993 --- 76.317 --- 21.502 --- 8.800*
> _Ponta Grossa --- 4.605 --- 14.634 --- 56.067 --- 14.178 --- 5.349_
> 
> *Porto Alegre (RS) --- 125.423 --- 269.215 --- 792.515 --- 150.462 --- 72.054*
> _Porto Alegre --- 94.281 --- 130.820 --- 219.031 --- 40.107 --- 23.974_
> 
> *Porto Velho (RO) --- 6.689 --- 19.635 --- 64.768 --- 19.975 --- 11.457*
> _Porto Velho --- 6.619 --- 19.233 --- 61.945 --- 18.560 --- 10.482_
> 
> *Presidente Prudente (SP) --- 6.151 --- 20.462 --- 83.935 --- 17.967 --- 6.907*
> _Presidente Prudente --- 4.653 --- 12.626 --- 40.606 --- 7.046 --- 2.863_
> 
> *Recife (PE) --- 61.547 --- 117.351 --- 557.092 --- 349.243 --- 222.077*
> _Recife --- 47.127 --- 65.431 --- 194.405 --- 102.345 --- 61.340_
> 
> *Ribeirão Preto (SP) --- 23.808 --- 68.890 --- 197.649 --- 32.397 --- 17.133*
> _Ribeirão Preto --- 19.866 --- 47.020 --- 105.472 --- 14.488 --- 8.420_
> 
> *Rio Branco (AC) --- 4.412 --- 12.380 --- 49.283 --- 25.044 --- 15.041*
> _Rio Branco --- 4.281 --- 11.861 --- 44.580 --- 21.686 --- 11.796_
> 
> *Rio de Janeiro (RJ) --- 381.323 --- 648.047 --- 2.130.082 --- 625.107 --- 342.001*
> _Rio de Janeiro --- 305.698 --- 425.168 --- 1.015.067 --- 251.019 --- 146.303_
> 
> *Rio Grande (RS) --- 3.396 --- 11.326 --- 43.102 --- 12.001 --- 5.464*
> _Rio Grande --- 3.326 --- 10.891 --- 37.964 --- 9.886 --- 4.427_
> 
> *Rio Verde (GO) --- 2.834 --- 9.399 --- 44.103 --- 11.432 --- 4.305*
> _Rio Verde --- 2.419 --- 7.791 --- 33.757 --- 8.277 --- 3.239_
> 
> *Rondonópolis (MT) --- 2.723 --- 9.186 --- 40.032 --- 11.226 --- 4.463*
> _Rondonópolis --- 2.656 --- 8.776 --- 36.464 --- 9.762 --- 3.713_
> 
> *Salvador (BA) --- 71.626 --- 135.837 --- 539.801 --- 256.165 --- 169.965*
> _Salvador --- 63.976 --- 112.574 --- 399.658 --- 175.722 --- 106.741_
> 
> *Santa Cruz do Sul-Venâncio Aires (RS) --- 3.837 --- 14.941 --- 66.405 --- 12.932 --- 6.544*
> _Santa Cruz do Sul --- 2.578 --- 8.131 --- 24.864 --- 3.471 --- 1.491_
> 
> *Santa Maria (RS) --- 8.668 --- 20.959 --- 58.538 --- 13.717 --- 6.226*
> _Santa Maria --- 8.102 --- 18.731 --- 46.244 --- 9.949 --- 4.390_
> 
> *Santarém (PA) --- 1.123 --- 4.116 --- 28.728 --- 19.758 --- 20.274*
> _Santarém --- 1.095 --- 3.985 --- 27.522 --- 18.798 --- 18.612_
> 
> *São José do Rio Preto (SP) --- 14.109 --- 48.337 --- 160.631 --- 22.269 --- 10.626*
> _São José do Rio Preto --- 10.758 --- 31.189 --- 79.386 --- 9.755 --- 6.101_
> 
> *São José dos Campos-Taubaté (SP) --- 32.066 --- 84.681 --- 257.768 --- 56.126 --- 27.110*
> _São José dos Campos --- 18.410 --- 38.828 --- 102.361 --- 19.399 --- 10.112_
> 
> *São Luís (MA) --- 15.862 --- 36.807 --- 171.271 --- 102.612 --- 69.930*
> _São Luís --- 14.899 --- 31.842 --- 126.912 --- 67.836 --- 35.314_
> 
> *São Paulo (SP) --- 640.654 --- 1.257.054 --- 3.639.142 --- 841.326 --- 570.254*
> _São Paulo --- 465.326 --- 694.471 --- 1.740.756 --- 381.151 --- 288.545_
> 
> *Sorocaba-Itu (SP) --- 19.984 --- 67.328 --- 229.028 --- 43.365 --- 19.895*
> _Sorocaba --- 12.818 --- 37.263 --- 102.338 --- 17.564 --- 8.762_
> 
> *Teresina (PI-MA) --- 11.771 --- 26.996 --- 130.244 --- 82.150 --- 50.626*
> _Teresina --- 11.362 --- 24.605 --- 101.839 --- 56.677 --- 27.651_
> 
> *Tubarão-Laguna (SC) --- 2.497 --- 11.408 --- 46.227 --- 6.948 --- 2.322*
> _Tubarão --- 1.729 --- 6.697 --- 21.049 --- 2.271 --- 718_
> 
> *Uberaba (MG-SP) --- 6.051 --- 18.722 --- 69.450 --- 12.886 --- 4.515*
> _Uberaba --- 5.743 --- 16.914 --- 59.689 --- 10.693 --- 3.754_
> 
> *Uberlândia (MG) --- 13.310 --- 40.858 --- 143.448 --- 26.777 --- 8.677*
> _Uberlândia --- 12.033 --- 35.839 --- 119.390 --- 21.262 --- 7.210_
> 
> *Vitória (ES) --- 42.884 --- 97.307 --- 313.606 --- 89.134 --- 40.807*
> _Vitória --- 21.607 --- 27.458 --- 43.894 --- 10.140 --- 5.366_
> 
> *Vitória da Conquista (BA) --- 2.456 --- 7.283 --- 50.258 --- 32.327 --- 24.747*
> _Vitória da Conquista --- 2.379 --- 6.826 --- 39.832 --- 22.644 --- 14.773_
> 
> *Volta Redonda-Barra Mansa (RJ) --- 11.063 --- 38.707 --- 156.620 --- 42.257 --- 17.674*
> _Volta Redonda --- 4.249 --- 15.399 --- 49.097 --- 10.855 --- 4.703_
> 
> 
> 
> *Definição das RMs*:
> 
> *Abaetetuba-Moju (PA)*: Abaetetuba, Igarapé-Miri e Moju
> 
> *Aracaju (SE)*: Aracaju, Barra dos Coqueiros, Carmópolis, Divina Pastora, General Maynard, Itaporanga d’Ajuda, Japaratuba, Laranjeiras, Maruim, Nossa Senhora do Socorro, Pirambu, Riachuelo, Rosário do Catete, Salgado, Santa Rosa de Lima, Santo Amaro das Brotas, São Cristóvão e Siriri
> 
> *Araçatuba-Birigüi (SP)*: Alto Alegre, Araçatuba, Avanhandava, Barbosa, Bento de Abreu, Bilac, Birigüi, Braúna, Brejo Alegre, Buritama, Clementina, Coroados, Gabriel Monteiro, Glicério, Guararapes, Lourdes, Penápolis, Rubiácea, Santo Antônio do Aracanguá e Valparaíso
> 
> *Arapiraca (AL)*: Anadia, Arapiraca, Belém, Campo Alegre, Campo Grande, Coité do Nóia, Craíbas, Estrela de Alagoas, Feira Grande, Girau do Ponciano, Igaci, Jaramataia, Junqueiro, Lagoa da Canoa, Limoeiro de Anadia, Maribondo, Palmeira dos Índios, Quebrangulo, São Sebastião, Tanque d'Arca, Taquarana e Teotônio Vilela
> 
> *Araraquara-São Carlos (SP)*: Américo Brasiliense, Analândia, Araraquara, Boa Esperança do Sul, Descalvado, Dobrada, Dourado, Gavião Peixoto, Ibaté, Itirapina, Matão, Motuca, Nova Europa, Ribeirão Bonito, Rincão, Santa Lúcia, São Carlos e Trabiju
> 
> *Bauru (SP)*: Agudos, Arealva, Avaí, Bauru, Boracéia, Borebi, Cabrália Paulista, Duartina, Iacanga, Lençóis Paulista, Macatuba, Paulistânia, Pederneiras, Piratininga e Presidente Alves
> 
> *Belém (PA)*: Ananindeua, Barcarena, Belém, Benevides, Bujaru, Castanhal, Inhangapi, Marituba, Santa Bárbara do Pará, Santa Isabel do Pará, Santo Antônio do Tauá, São Francisco do Pará e Terra Alta
> 
> *Belo Horizonte (MG)*: Baldim, Barão de Cocais, Belo Horizonte, Betim, Bom Jesus do Amparo, Bonfim, Brumadinho, Cachoeira da Prata, Caetanópolis, Caeté, Capim Branco, Confins, Contagem, Crucilândia, Esmeraldas, Florestal, Fortuna de Minas, Funilândia, Ibirité, Igarapé, Inhaúma, Itabirito, Itaguara, Itatiaiuçu, Itaúna, Jaboticatubas, Jequitibá, Juatuba, Lagoa Santa, Mário Campos, Mateus Leme, Matozinhos, Moeda, Nova Lima, Nova União, Pará de Minas, Paraopeba, Pedro Leopoldo, Prudente de Morais, Raposos, Ribeirão das Neves, Rio Acima, Rio Manso, Sabará, Santa Bárbara, Santa Luzia, São Joaquim de Bicas, São José da Lapa, São José da Varginha, Sarzedo, Sete Lagoas, Taquaraçu de Minas e Vespasiano
> 
> *Blumenau (SC)*: Apiúna, Ascurra, Benedito Novo, Blumenau, Botuverá, Brusque, Doutor Pedrinho, Gaspar, Guabiruba, Indaial, Luiz Alves, Pomerode, Rio dos Cedros, Rodeio e Timbó
> 
> *Boa Vista (RR)*: Boa Vista, Cantá e Mucajaí
> 
> *Bragança-Capanema (PA)*: Augusto Corrêa, Bonito, Bragança, Capanema, Nova Timboteua, Peixe-Boi, Primavera, Quatipuru e Tracuateua
> 
> *Brasília (DF-GO-MG)*: Abadiânia, Água Fria de Goiás, Águas Lindas de Goiás, Alexânia, Brasília, Buritis, Cabeceira Grande, Cabeceiras, Cidade Ocidental, Cocalzinho de Goiás, Corumbá de Goiás, Cristalina, Formosa, Luziânia, Mimoso de Goiás, Novo Gama, Padre Bernardo, Pirenópolis, Planaltina de Goiás, Santo Antônio do Descoberto, Unaí, Valparaíso de Goiás, Vila Boa e Vila Propício
> 
> *Cabo Frio-Araruama (RJ)*: Araruama, Armação de Búzios, Arraial do Cabo, Cabo Frio, Iguaba Grande, São Pedro da Aldeia e Silva Jardim
> 
> *Cachoeiro de Itapemirim (ES)*: Atílio Vivacqua, Cachoeiro de Itapemirim, Castelo, Itapemirim, Jerônimo Monteiro, Marataízes, Mimoso do Sul, Muqui, Presidente Kennedy, Rio Novo do Sul e Vargem Alta
> 
> *Campina Grande (PB)*: Alagoa Nova, Areia, Areial, Barra de Santana, Campina Grande, Caturité, Esperança, Fagundes, Lagoa Seca, Massaranduba, Matinhas, Montadas, Pocinhos, Puxinanã, Queimadas, Remígio, Riachão do Bacamarte, São Sebastião de Lagoa de Roça e Serra Redonda *
> 
> *Campinas (SP)*: Americana, Artur Nogueira, Campinas, Capivari, Cosmópolis, Elias Fausto, Engenheiro Coelho, Holambra, Hortolândia, Indaiatuba, Itatiba, Jaguariúna, Monte Mor, Morungaba, Nova Odessa, Paulínia, Pedreira, Rafard, Santa Bárbara d’Oeste, Santo Antônio de Posse, Sumaré, Valinhos e Vinhedo
> 
> *Campos dos Goytacazes (RJ)*: Campos dos Goytacazes, Cardoso Moreira, São Fidélis, São Francisco de Itabapoana e São João da Barra
> 
> *Campo Grande (MS)*: Bandeirantes, Campo Grande, Jaraguari, Sidrolândia e Terenos
> 
> *Caruaru (PE)*: Agrestina, Altinho, Belo Jardim, Bezerros, Bonito, Cachoeirinha, Camocim de São Félix, Caruaru, Chã Grande, Cumaru, Cupira, Gravatá, Ibirajuba, Panelas, Riacho das Almas, Sairé, São Caitano, São Joaquim do Monte e Tacaimbó
> 
> *Cascavel-Toledo (PR)*: Braganey, Cafelândia, Cascavel, Catanduvas, Céu Azul, Corbélia, Ibema, Lindoeste, Ouro Verde do Oeste, Santa Tereza do Oeste, São Pedro do Iguaçu, Toledo, Tupãssi e Vera Cruz do Oeste
> 
> *Caxias do Sul (RS)*: Alto Feliz, Antônio Prado, Barão, Bento Gonçalves, Boa Vista do Sul, Carlos Barbosa, Caxias do Sul, Coronel Pilar, Cotiporã, Farroupilha, Flores da Cunha, Garibaldi, Ipê, Monte Belo do Sul, Nova Pádua, Nova Petrópolis, Nova Roma do Sul, Salvador do Sul, Santa Tereza, São Marcos, São Pedro da Serra, São Valentim do Sul, São Vendelino, Vale Real, Veranópolis e Vila Flores
> 
> *Chapecó (SC)*: Águas de Chapecó, Águas Frias, Arvoredo, Bom Jesus, Caxambu do Sul, Chapecó, Cordilheira Alta, Coronel Freitas, Guatambu, Lajeado Grande, Marema, Nova Erechim, Nova Itaberaba, Paial, Planalto Alegre, São Carlos, Seara, Xanxerê, Xaxim e Xavantina
> 
> *Criciúma (SC)*: Araranguá, Balneário Arroio do Silva, Cocal do Sul, Criciúma, Ermo, Forquilhinha, Içara, Lauro Müller, Maracajá, Meleiro, Morro da Fumaça, Morro Grande, Nova Veneza, Orleans, Sangão, Siderópolis, Treviso, Turvo e Urussanga
> 
> *Cuiabá (MT)*: Acorizal, Chapada dos Guimarães, Cuiabá, Jangada, Nossa Senhora do Livramento, Santo Antônio do Leverger e Várzea Grande
> 
> *Curitiba (PR)*: Adrianópolis, Agudos do Sul, Almirante Tamandaré, Araucária, Balsa Nova, Bocaiúva do Sul, Campina Grande do Sul, Campo Largo, Campo Magro, Cerro Azul, Colombo, Contenda, Curitiba, Doutor Ulysses, Fazenda Rio Grande, Itaperuçu, Lapa, Mandirituba, Piên, Pinhais, Piraquara, Porto Amazonas, Quatro Barras, Quitandinha, Rio Branco do Sul, São José dos Pinhais, Tijucas do Sul e Tunas do Paraná
> 
> *Divinópolis (MG)*: Araújos, Carmo do Cajuru, Conceição do Pará, Divinópolis, Igaratinga, Nova Serrana, Pedra do Indaiá, Perdigão, São Gonçalo do Pará e São Sebastião do Oeste
> 
> *Dourados (MS)*: Caarapó, Douradina, Dourados, Fátima do Sul, Itaporã, Laguna Carapã e Vicentina
> 
> *Feira de Santana (BA)*: Amélia Rodrigues, Anguera, Antônio Cardoso, Conceição da Feira, Conceição do Jacuípe, Coração de Maria, Feira de Santana, Irará, Santanópolis e São Gonçalo dos Campos *
> 
> *Florianópolis (SC)*: Águas Mornas, Angelina, Antônio Carlos, Biguaçu, Canelinha, Florianópolis, Garopaba, Governador Celso Ramos, Palhoça, Paulo Lopes, Rancho Queimado, Santo Amaro da Imperatriz, São José, São Pedro de Alcântara e Tijucas
> 
> *Fortaleza (CE)*: Acarape, Aquiraz, Barreira, Cascavel, Caucaia, Chorozinho, Eusébio, Fortaleza, Guaiúba, Horizonte, Itaitinga, Maracanaú, Maranguape, Pacajus, Pacatuba, Pindoretama, Redenção e São Gonçalo do Amarante
> 
> *Foz do Iguaçu (PR)*: Foz do Iguaçu, Medianeira, Santa Terezinha de Itaipu, São Miguel do Iguaçu e Serranópolis do Iguaçu
> 
> *Franca (SP-MG)*: Capetinga, Claraval, Cristais Paulista, Franca, Ibiraci, Itirapuã, Jeriquara, Patrocínio Paulista, Pedregulho, Restinga, Ribeirão Corrente e São José da Bela Vista
> 
> *Goiânia-Anápolis (GO)*: Abadia de Goiás, Anápolis, Aparecida de Goiânia, Aragoiânia, Bela Vista de Goiás, Bonfinópolis, Brazabrantes, Caldazinha, Campestre de Goiás, Campo Limpo de Goiás, Caturaí, Damolândia, Goianápolis, Goiânia, Goianira, Guapó, Hidrolândia, Inhumas, Leopoldo de Bulhões, Nerópolis, Nova Veneza, Ouro Verde de Goiás, Santa Bárbara de Goiás, Santo Antônio de Goiás, Senador Canedo, Terezópolis de Goiás e Trindade
> 
> *Governador Valadares (MG)*: Alpercata, Capitão Andrade, Frei Inocêncio, Galiléia, Governador Valadares, Mathias Lobato e Tumiritinga
> 
> *Guaratinguetá-Lorena-Cruzeiro (SP)*: Aparecida, Areias, Cachoeira Paulista, Canas, Cruzeiro, Guaratinguetá, Lavrinhas, Lorena, Piquete, Potim, Queluz, Roseira e Silveiras
> 
> *Ilhéus-Itabuna (BA)*: Barro Preto, Buerarema, Coaraci, Floresta Azul, Ibicaraí, Ilhéus, Itabuna, Itajuípe, Itapé, São José da Vitória e Uruçuca
> 
> *Imperatriz (MA-TO)*: Axixá do Tocantins, Buritirana, Davinópolis, Governador Edison Lobão, Imperatriz, Itaguatins, João Lisboa, Montes Altos, Ribamar Fiquene, São Miguel do Tocantins, Senador La Rocque e Sítio Novo do Tocantins
> 
> *Ipatinga (MG)*: Antônio Dias, Belo Oriente, Bugre, Coronel Fabriciano, Iapu, Ipaba, Ipatinga, Jaguaraçu, Joanésia, Marliéria, Mesquita, Naque, Periquito, Santana do Paraíso, São João do Oriente e Timóteo
> 
> *Itajaí-Balneário Camboriú (SC)*: Balneário Camboriú, Balneário Piçarras, Barra Velha, Bombinhas, Camboriú, Ilhota, Itajaí, Itapema, Navegantes, Penha, Porto Belo e São João do Itaperiú
> 
> *João Pessoa (PB)*: Alhandra, Bayeux, Caaporã, Cabedelo, Capim, Conde, Cruz do Espírito Santo, João Pessoa, Lucena, Mamanguape, Marcação, Pedras de Fogo, Pilar, Pitimbu, Riachão do Poço, Rio Tinto, Santa Rita, São Miguel de Taipu, Sapé e Sobrado
> 
> *Joinville (SC)*: Araquari, Balneário Barra do Sul, Corupá, Garuva, Guaramirim, Itapoá, Jaraguá do Sul, Joinville, Massaranduba, São Francisco do Sul e Schroeder
> 
> *Juazeiro do Norte-Crato (CE)*: Abaiara, Barbalha, Caririaçu, Crato, Farias Brito, Granjeiro, Jardim, Juazeiro do Norte, Milagres, Missão Velha, Nova Olinda, Porteiras e Santana do Cariri
> 
> *Juiz de Fora (MG)*: Belmiro Braga, Bicas, Chácara, Coronel Pacheco, Ewbank da Câmara, Goianá, Guarará, Juiz de Fora, Mar de Espanha, Maripá de Minas, Matias Barbosa, Pedro Teixeira, Pequeri, Piau, Rio Novo, Rochedo de Minas, Santana do Deserto, Santos Dumont, Simão Pereira e Tabuleiro
> 
> *Lages (SC)*: Bocaina do Sul, Capão Alto, Correia Pinto, Lages, Otacílio Costa, Painel, Palmeira, Ponte Alta e São José do Cerrito
> 
> *Lajeado (RS)*: Arroio do Meio, Bom Retiro do Sul, Capitão, Colinas, Cruzeiro do Sul, Estrela, Fazenda Vilanova, Forquetinha, Imigrante, Lajeado, Marques de Souza, Mato Leitão, Santa Clara do Sul, Teutônia, Travesseiro e Westfalia *
> 
> *Londrina (PR)*: Alvorada do Sul, Apucarana, Arapongas, Assaí, Bela Vista do Paraíso, Califórnia, Cambé, Ibiporã, Jaguapitã, Jataizinho, Londrina, Marilândia do Sul, Miraselva, Novo Itacolomi, Prado Ferreira, Primeiro de Maio, Pitangueiras, Rio Bom, Rolândia, Sabáudia, Sertanópolis, Tamarana e Uraí
> 
> *Macaé-Rio das Ostras (RJ)*: Carapebus, Casimiro de Abreu, Macaé e Rio das Ostras
> 
> *Macapá (AP)*: Itaubal, Macapá, Mazagão e Santana
> 
> *Maceió (RN)*: Atalaia, Barra de Santo Antônio, Barra de São Miguel, Capela, Coqueiro Seco, Flexeiras, Maceió, Marechal Deodoro, Messias, Murici, Paripueira, Pilar, Rio Largo, Roteiro, Santa Luzia do Norte, São Luís do Quitunde, São Miguel dos Campos e Satuba
> 
> *Manaus (AM)*: Careiro da Várzea, Iranduba, Manaus e Rio Preto da Eva
> 
> *Marabá (PA)*: Itupiranga, Marabá, Nova Ipixuna, São Domingos do Araguaia e São João do Araguaia
> 
> *Marília (SP)*: Álvaro de Carvalho, Alvinlândia, Echaporã, Fernão, Gália, Garça, Guaimbê, Júlio Mesquita, Lupércio, Marília, Ocauçu, Oriente, Oscar Bressane, Pompéia, Quintana e Vera Cruz
> 
> *Maringá (PR)*: Ângulo, Astorga, Atalaia, Bom Sucesso, Cambira, Doutor Camargo, Floraí, Floresta, Flórida, Iguaraçu, Itambé, Ivatuba, Jandaia do Sul, Lobato, Mandaguaçu, Mandaguari, Marialva, Maringá, Marumbi, Munhoz de Melo, Nova Esperança, Ourizona, Paiçandu, Presidente Castelo Branco, Santa Fé, São Jorge do Ivaí, Sarandi e Uniflor
> 
> *Mogi Guaçu-Mogi Mirim (SP)*: Espírito Santo do Pinhal, Estiva Gerbi, Itapira, Mogi Guaçu, Mogi Mirim e Santo Antônio do Jardim
> 
> *Montes Claros (MG)*: Bocaiúva, Francisco Sá, Glaucilândia, Guaraciama, Juramento e Montes Claros
> 
> *Mossoró (RN)*: Areia Branca, Baraúna, Governador Dix-Sept Rosado, Grossos, Mossoró, Serra do Mel e Tibau
> 
> *Natal (RN)*: Arês, Bom Jesus, Brejinho, Ceará-Mirim, Extremoz, Goianinha, Ielmo Marinho, Lagoa de Pedras, Lagoa Salgada, Macaíba, Maxaranguape, Monte Alegre, Natal, Nísia Floresta, Parnamirim, Poço Branco, Pureza, Santa Maria, São Gonçalo do Amarante, São José de Mipibu, São Pedro, Senador Georgino Avelino, Taipu, Tibau do Sul e Vera Cruz
> 
> *Nova Friburgo (RJ)*: Bom Jardim, Cachoeiras de Macacu, Duas Barras, Nova Friburgo e Sumidouro
> 
> *Palmas (TO)*: Lajeado, Palmas e Porto Nacional
> 
> *Paranaguá (PR)*: Antonina, Guaraqueçaba, Guaratuba, Matinhos, Morretes, Paranaguá e Pontal do Paraná
> 
> *Passo Fundo (RS)*: Almirante Tamandaré do Sul, Camargo, Carazinho, Coqueiros do Sul, Coxilha, Ernestina, Gentil, Ibirapuitã, Marau, Mato Castelhano, Não-Me-Toque, Nicolau Vergueiro, Passo Fundo, Pontão, Santo Antônio do Planalto, Sertão, Tio Hugo, Vila Lângaro, Vila Maria e Victor Graeff
> 
> *Pelotas (RS)*: Arroio do Padre, Capão do Leão, Cerrito, Morro Redondo, Pedro Osório, Pelotas e Turuçu
> 
> *Petrolina-Juazeiro (PE-BA)*: Juazeiro, Lagoa Grande, Petrolina e Sobradinho
> 
> *Piracicaba-Limeira-Rio Claro (SP)*: Águas de São Pedro, Araras, Charqueada, Conchal, Cordeirópolis, Corumbataí, Ipeúna, Iracemápolis, Leme, Limeira, Mombuca, Piracicaba, Rio Claro, Rio das Pedras, Saltinho, Santa Cruz da Conceição, Santa Gertrudes e São Pedro
> 
> *Ponta Grossa (PR)*: Carambeí, Castro, Palmeira e Ponta Grossa
> 
> *Porto Alegre (RS)*: Alvorada, Araricá, Arroio dos Ratos, Barra do Ribeiro, Bom Princípio, Brochier, Cachoeirinha, Campo Bom, Canoas, Capela de Santana, Capivari do Sul, Caraá, Charqueadas, Dois Irmãos, Eldorado do Sul, Estância Velha, Esteio, Feliz, General Câmara, Glorinha, Gravataí, Guaíba, Harmonia, Igrejinha, Ivoti, Lindolfo Collor, Linha Nova, Maratá, Mariana Pimentel, Montenegro, Morro Reuter, Nova Hartz, Nova Santa Rita, Novo Hamburgo, Pareci Novo, Parobé, Picada Café, Portão, Porto Alegre, Presidente Lucena, Rolante, Santa Maria do Herval, Santo Antônio da Patrulha, São Jerônimo, São José do Hortêncio, São José do Sul, São Leopoldo, São Sebastião do Caí, Sapiranga, Sapucaia do Sul, Sertão Santana, Taquara, Três Coroas, Triunfo, Tupandi e Viamão
> 
> *Porto Velho (RO)*: Candeias do Jamari e Porto Velho
> 
> *Presidente Prudente (SP)*: Alfredo Marcondes, Álvares Machado, Anhumas, Caiabu, Emilianópolis, Estrela do Norte, Indiana, Martinópolis, Narandiba, Piquerobi, Pirapozinho, Presidente Bernardes, Presidente Prudente, Presidente Venceslau, Regente Feijó, Ribeirão dos Índios, Santo Anástacio, Santo Expedito, Taciba e Tarabai
> 
> *Recife (PE)*: Abreu e Lima, Araçoiaba, Buenos Aires, Cabo de Santo Agostinho, Camaragibe, Carpina, Chã de Alegria, Escada, Feira Nova, Glória do Goitá, Goiana, Igarassu, Ilha de Itamaracá, Ipojuca, Itapissuma, Itaquitinga, Jaboatão dos Guararapes, Lagoa do Carro, Lagoa do Itaenga, Limoeiro, Moreno, Nazaré da Mata, Olinda, Paudalho, Paulista, Pombos, Recife, São Lourenço da Mata, Sirinhaém, Tracunhaém e Vitória de Santo Antão
> 
> *Ribeirão Preto (SP)*: Altinópolis, Barrinha, Batatais, Brodowski, Cravinhos, Dumont, Guatapará, Jardinópolis, Luís Antônio, Pitangueiras, Pontal, Pradópolis, Ribeirão Preto, Santa Cruz da Esperança, São Simão, Serra Azul, Serrana e Sertãozinho
> 
> *Rio Branco (AC)*: Bujari, Porto Acre, Rio Branco e Senador Guiomard
> 
> *Rio de Janeiro (RJ)*: Belford Roxo, Duque de Caxias, Engenheiro Paulo de Frontin, Guapimirim, Itaboraí, Itaguaí, Japeri, Magé, Mangaratiba, Maricá, Mesquita, Miguel Pereira, Nilópolis, Niterói, Nova Iguaçu, Paracambi, Paty do Alferes, Petrópolis, Queimados, Rio Bonito, Rio de Janeiro, São Gonçalo, São João de Meriti, Saquarema, Seropédica, Tanguá e Teresópolis
> 
> *Rio Grande (RS)*: Rio Grande e São José do Norte
> 
> *Rio Verde (GO)*: Montividiu, Rio Verde, Santa Helena de Goiás e Santo Antônio da Barra
> 
> *Rondonópolis (MT)*: Pedra Preta, Rondonópolis e São José do Povo
> 
> *Salvador (BA)*: Camaçari, Candeias, Catu, Dias d’Ávila, Itanagra, Itaparica, Lauro de Freitas, Madre de Deus, Mata de São João, Pojuca, Salinas da Margarida, Salvador, Santo Amaro, São Francisco do Conde, São Sebastião do Passé, Saubara, Simões Filho, Terra Nova e Vera Cruz
> 
> *Santa Cruz do Sul-Venâncio Aires (RS)*: Candelária, Passo do Sobrado, Rio Pardo, Santa Cruz do Sul, Sinimbu, Vale do Sol, Vale Verde, Venâncio Aires e Vera Cruz
> 
> *Santa Maria (RS)*: Dilermando de Aguiar, Dona Francisca, Faxinal do Soturno, Itaara, Ivorá, Restinga Seca, Santa Maria, São João do Polêsine, São Martinho da Serra, São Pedro do Sul e Silveira Martins
> 
> *Santarém (PA)*: Belterra e Santarém
> 
> *São José do Rio Preto (SP)*: Bady Bassitt, Bálsamo, Cedral, Guapiaçu, Ibirá, Icém, Ipiguá, Jaci, José Bonifácio, Mendonça, Mirassol, Mirassolândia, Monte Aprazível, Neves Paulista, Nipoã, Nova Aliança, Nova Granada, Olímpia, Onda Verde, Palestina, Poloni, Potirendaba, São José do Rio Preto, Tanabi, Uchoa e Urupês
> 
> *São José dos Campos-Taubaté (SP)*: Caçapava, Campos do Jordão, Igaratá, Jacareí, Jambeiro, Monteiro Lobato, Natividade da Serra, Paraibuna, Pindamonhangaba, Redenção da Serra, Santa Branca, Santo Antônio do Pinhal, São Bento do Sapucaí, São José dos Campos, São Luís do Paraitinga, Taubaté e Tremembé
> 
> *São Luís (MA)*: Alcântara, Axixá, Bacabeira, Cachoeira Grande, Icatu, Morros, Paço do Lumiar, Presidente Juscelino, Raposa, Rosário, Santa Rita, São José de Ribamar e São Luís
> 
> *São Paulo (SP)*: Araçariguama, Arujá, Atibaia, Barueri, Bertioga, Biritiba-Mirim, Bom Jesus dos Perdões, Cabreúva, Caieiras, Cajamar, Campo Limpo Paulista, Carapicuíba, Cotia, Cubatão, Diadema, Embu, Embu-Guaçu, Ferraz de Vasconcelos, Francisco Morato, Franco da Rocha, Guararema, Guarujá, Guarulhos, Ibiúna, Itanhaém, Itapecerica da Serra, Itapevi, Itaquaquecetuba, Itariri, Itupeva, Jandira, Jarinu, Jundiaí, Juquitiba, Louveira, Mairinque, Mairiporã, Mauá, Mogi das Cruzes, Mongaguá, Nazaré Paulista, Osasco, Pedro de Toledo, Peruíbe, Pirapora do Bom Jesus, Praia Grande, Poá, Ribeirão Pires, Rio Grande da Serra, Salesópolis, Santa Isabel, Santana de Parnaíba, Santo André, Santos, São Bernardo do Campo, São Caetano do Sul, São Lourenço da Serra, São Paulo, São Roque, São Vicente, Suzano, Taboão da Serra, Vargem Grande Paulista e Várzea Paulista
> 
> *Sorocaba-Itu (SP)*: Alumínio, Araçoiaba da Serra, Boituva, Capela do Alto, Iperó, Itu, Piedade, Pilar do Sul, Porto Feliz, Salto, Salto de Pirapora, Sorocaba e Votorantim
> 
> *Teresina (PI-MA)*: Altos, Demerval Lobão, José de Freitas, Lagoa do Piauí, Monsenhor Gil, Pau d’Arco do Piauí, Teresina, Timon e União
> 
> *Tubarão-Laguna (SC)*: Capivari de Baixo, Gravatal, Jaguaruna, Laguna, Pedras Grandes, Treze de Maio e Tubarão *
> 
> *Uberaba (MG-SP)*: Água Comprida, Aramina, Delta, Igarapava, Uberaba e Veríssimo
> 
> *Uberlândia (MG)*: Araguari, Indianópolis e Uberlândia
> 
> *Vitória (ES)*: Aracruz, Cariacica, Domingos Martins, Fundão, Guarapari, Ibiraçu, João Neiva, Marechal Floriano, Santa Leopoldina, Serra, Viana, Vila Velha e Vitória
> 
> *Vitória da Conquista (BA)*: Anagé, Barra do Choça, Belo Campo, Caatiba, Planalto e Vitória da Conquista
> 
> *Volta Redonda-Barra Mansa (RJ)*: Barra do Piraí, Barra Mansa, Itatiaia, Mendes, Pinheiral, Piraí, Porto Real, Quatis, Resende, Rio Claro, Vassouras e Volta Redonda
> 
> _* RMs incompletas_


P.S. It's nice to see Motul well spirited for a change...


----------



## messicano

cada pais mide la pobreza a su manera

i prefer IDH


----------



## Acosta

WOW, that's a incredible material, Yuri. Thanks a lot dude.


----------



## oliver999

some south america +russia+east europe will be reach developed in 10 years
china needs 40 years to developed(if US troop would not invade china).


----------



## apinamies

oliver999 said:


> some south america +russia+east europe will be reach developed in 10 years
> china needs 40 years to developed*(if US troop would not invade china)*.


That is not possible! :lol:


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

oliver999 said:


> some south america +russia+east europe will be reach developed in 10 years
> china needs 40 years to developed(if US troop would not invade china).


I've calculated that China will get developed around 2030.
China is where South Korea were in around the early 1980s in terms of development. South Korea got reached developed status around 2000. So about 20 years more! :cheers:


----------



## Acosta

I also think China is near to it. 15 or 20 years more.


----------



## kaligraffi

Kensingtonian said:


> It takes more than money to be a developed country.
> 
> Minimum requirements:
> 
> 1)Majority of population is middle class
> 2)Well functioning democracy
> 3)Women and men have equal rights


By these standards, none of the so-called "developed countries" fulfill the title:

"Middle class" can only be met by arbitrary definitions that are moved here and there for political convenience. The social basis for the middle class (small businesses, unionized workforce and family farms) has been eroded incredibly in a country like the US, and probably irrevocably so.

Well functioning democracy? This is hard to apply to the UK, whose police force basically just categorized peaceful protests as "terrorism". Indeed, it is the height of hypocrisy for any country with a privatized election system, that is offices elected by money first and foremost, to call themselves "democracies". It's actually the basest of lies.

Name one so-called "developed" country that has de facto equal rights for both men and women (ie wages). I doubt anyone really could, because in most of the world it's paper-thin equality and little else.

In all, it seems as though the "developed club" is little more than posturing and back-patting by imperialist countries. The IMF's infamous (but not famous) role in the collapse of Yugoslavia and the madness that followed is more than enough to know that it has no concern for the well-being of the people of the world.


----------



## Galro

Equal wages = equal rights?


----------



## kaligraffi

Lower wages purely on account of gender = society-wide discrimination and inequality

That's just one example of how gender equality is a mirage in the "developed" world. To further illustrate this, we can look at the end result: the fact that Black women in the US have a median net worth of $5.00. This not only exposes the empty claims to "development" but brings into stark relief the hypocrisy by which so-called developed countries try to lecture the rest of the world on women's rights (or anything else, for that matter).


----------



## Jonesy55

kaligraffi said:


> By these standards, none of the so-called "developed countries" fulfill the title:
> 
> "Middle class" can only be met by arbitrary definitions that are moved here and there for political convenience. The social basis for the middle class (small businesses, unionized workforce and family farms) has been eroded incredibly in a country like the US, and probably irrevocably so.
> 
> Well functioning democracy? This is hard to apply to the UK, whose police force basically just categorized peaceful protests as "terrorism". Indeed, it is the height of hypocrisy for any country with a privatized election system, that is offices elected by money first and foremost, to call themselves "democracies". It's actually the basest of lies.
> 
> Name one so-called "developed" country that has de facto equal rights for both men and women (ie wages). I doubt anyone really could, because in most of the world it's paper-thin equality and little else.
> 
> In all, it seems as though the "developed club" is little more than posturing and back-patting by imperialist countries. The IMF's infamous (but not famous) role in the collapse of Yugoslavia and the madness that followed is more than enough to know that it has no concern for the well-being of the people of the world.


I don't think this thread is debating 'which will be the next perfect country', because that obviously doesn't exist. But if you can get close to those countries that are currently less imperfect in these areas then that's good.

Your examples of imperfections above are generally valid even if exaggerated but if they are still less bad than most of the world then that's the current standard we have to measure by.


----------



## kaligraffi

Jonesy55 said:


> I don't think this thread is debating 'which will be the next perfect country', because that obviously doesn't exist. But if you can get close to those countries that are currently less imperfect in these areas then that's good.
> 
> Your examples of imperfections above are generally valid even if exaggerated but if they are still less bad than most of the world then that's the current standard we have to measure by.


Point taken, it is true that we can't be looking for perfection. That being said, I would submit that developed countries are oftentimes more imperfect in these areas. For example, why are Venezuelan elections denounced while American elections, part circus and part auction, are hailed as democratic? Why is Iran demonized as an aggressive "rogue state" when the US has militarily surrounded Iran? My concern is that we are creating not only a bad standard, but a hypocritical double standard.

If we say that development is purely about economic potency, fair enough, I would in that case do well to humbly bow out of the discussion. But if we insert a political, even a moral, dimension to this question, then we must take a step back and identify precisely what it is that has been developed and whether or not it merits the support of sensible minds. After all, from the pages of history we learn that power and enlightenment rarely go hand-in-hand. When we speak of economic development, we are of course speaking of a certain species of power, and in light of this it is important that we keep mindful of the old truism that might does not always make right.


----------



## Galro

kaligraffi said:


> Lower wages purely on account of gender = society-wide discrimination and inequality
> 
> That's just one example of how gender equality is a mirage in the "developed" world. To further illustrate this, we can look at the end result: the fact that Black women in the US have a median net worth of $5.00. This not only exposes the empty claims to "development" but brings into stark relief the hypocrisy by which so-called developed countries try to lecture the rest of the world on women's rights (or anything else, for that matter).


How do you know it's only because of their gender?


----------



## megacity30

kaligraffi said:


> Point taken, it is true that we can't be looking for perfection. That being said, I would submit that developed countries are oftentimes more imperfect in these areas. For example, why are Venezuelan elections denounced while American elections, part circus and part auction, are hailed as democratic? Why is Iran demonized as an aggressive "rogue state" when the US has militarily surrounded Iran? My concern is that we are creating not only a bad standard, but a hypocritical double standard.
> 
> If we say that development is purely about economic potency, fair enough, I would in that case do well to humbly bow out of the discussion. But if we insert a political, even a moral, dimension to this question, then we must take a step back and identify precisely what it is that has been developed and whether or not it merits the support of sensible minds. After all, from the pages of history we learn that power and enlightenment rarely go hand-in-hand. When we speak of economic development, we are of course speaking of a certain species of power, and in light of this it is important that we keep mindful of the old truism that might does not always make right.


:applause: Very bold, true and well-put, kaligraffi. 
A "developed" country is viewed by each one of us with tinted eye-glasses, tinted by our own life's perceptions of how a "developed" country should look and be.


----------



## I(L)WTC

In Latinamerica Chile Argentina and Uruguay


----------



## pesto

kaligraffi said:


> By these standards, none of the so-called "developed countries" fulfill the title:
> 
> "Middle class" can only be met by arbitrary definitions that are moved here and there for political convenience. The social basis for the middle class (small businesses, unionized workforce and family farms) has been eroded incredibly in a country like the US, and probably irrevocably so.
> 
> Well functioning democracy? This is hard to apply to the UK, whose police force basically just categorized peaceful protests as "terrorism". Indeed, it is the height of hypocrisy for any country with a privatized election system, that is offices elected by money first and foremost, to call themselves "democracies". It's actually the basest of lies.
> 
> Name one so-called "developed" country that has de facto equal rights for both men and women (ie wages). I doubt anyone really could, because in most of the world it's paper-thin equality and little else.
> 
> In all, it seems as though the "developed club" is little more than posturing and back-patting by imperialist countries. The IMF's infamous (but not famous) role in the collapse of Yugoslavia and the madness that followed is more than enough to know that it has no concern for the well-being of the people of the world.


And think about those 10's of millions of crazy Asian, Latins and Africans risking their lives to get to the US every year and kissing the friggin' ground when they get there. Too bad they're not smart like you.


----------



## messicano

I(L)WTC said:


> In Latinamerica Chile Argentina and Uruguay


uruguay is overrated


----------



## henrique42

I agree, but the question is; which next developing country....nobody knows when, it might never happen


----------



## eklips

pesto said:


> And think about those 10's of millions of crazy Asian, Latins and Africans risking their lives to get to the US every year and kissing the friggin' ground when they get there. Too bad they're not smart like you.


Actually, for many people migrating to the "first world", living conditions are not necessarily better than where they came from. However they stay because:

- They need to pay for their trip.
*- The different currency value means they can save up some money and invest it back home, or send back to their families. *
- Often a whole family invests by sending some of it's members away to migrate. Not only financially but also by asking their relatives already over there to house the person, to give him-her connections etc. Letting all of them down by going back is not something many migrants allow themselves.
- Migrations are always specific, however many immigrants come from specific locations in their home societies where the local social structures make it impossible to stay. For example many Mexicans in the US come from rural communities in the South of Mexico which were in crisis during the 80's and 90's (one of the reasons being NAFTA destroying these communities by forcing them to compete with the US agrobusiness). However, not all of Mexico lived this crisis, not even all of Mexico's working class/impoverished population.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

messicano said:


> uruguay is overrated


GDP per capita nominal - IMF 2011:

*Uruguay --- US$ 14,672*
Chile --- US$ 13,970
Brazil --- US$ 12,917
Mexico --- US$ 10,803
Argentina --- US$ 10,640
Venezuela --- US$ 10,409
Costa Rica --- US$ 8,489
Panama --- US$ 8,421
Colombia --- US$ 6,980
Peru --- US$ 5,614
Dominican Republic --- US$ 5,406
Ecuador --- US$ 4,352
El Salvador --- US$ 3,831
Paraguay --- US$ 3,421
Guatemala --- US$ 3,117
Bolivia --- US$ 2,246
Honduras --- US$ 2,105
Nicaragua --- US$ 1,202


----------



## Acosta

Why nominal why? :gaah:


----------



## messicano

Yuri S Andrade said:


> GDP per capita nominal - IMF 2011:
> 
> *Uruguay --- US$ 14,672*
> Chile --- US$ 13,970
> Brazil --- US$ 12,917
> Mexico --- US$ 10,803
> Argentina --- US$ 10,640
> Venezuela --- US$ 10,409
> Costa Rica --- US$ 8,489
> Panama --- US$ 8,421
> Colombia --- US$ 6,980
> Peru --- US$ 5,614
> Dominican Republic --- US$ 5,406
> Ecuador --- US$ 4,352
> El Salvador --- US$ 3,831
> Paraguay --- US$ 3,421
> Guatemala --- US$ 3,117
> Bolivia --- US$ 2,246
> Honduras --- US$ 2,105
> Nicaragua --- US$ 1,202


PPP and IDH:bash:

argentina is not poorer than brazil:bash:


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Acosta said:


> Why nominal why? :gaah:


Yuri S Andrade seem to have a fetish for nominal GDP per capita!:lol:


----------



## Motul

Brazilians usually do, because PPP doesn't help them out as it does all other Latin American countries..

In PPP Brazil is just barely above regional average.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Acosta said:


> Why nominal why? :gaah:


How Uruguay makes its currency reserve? What they get with their exports and pay for their imports? Don't you undestand PPP DOESN'T exist? It's only a fairy tale, an imaginary world.




messicano said:


> PPP and IDH:bash:
> 
> argentina is not poorer than brazil:bash:


???

Brazilian economy is indeed much bigger than Argentina's. The same for per capita. And how is HDI related to this? 

BTW if you believe in PPP you should me send 1,000 dollars and I'll give you 2,000 pesos in return. If you don't, please don't bring this PPP crap to the conversation. The thing is: US$ 1.00 = 4.20 pesos. The whole world (including Argentines buying dollars round-the-clock) operates under that assumption. The rest is fantasy. Wishful thinking.




VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Yuri S Andrade seem to have a fetish for nominal GDP per capita!:lol:


No, I don't. I was just responding the claim by which Uruguay was overated. It's not. They have a very strong economy and the biggest GDP per capita of Latin America.




Motul said:


> Brazilians usually do, because PPP doesn't help them out as it does all other Latin American countries..
> 
> In PPP Brazil is just barely above regional average.


:lol:

Oh dear... I don't operate like you. I've been posting GDP's lists forever. Brazilian used to be the 15th largest economy in the world back then. In any case, I don't care about the size of Brazilian economy. I have no positive or negative feelings about the country over this issue. 

And what is the meaning of your last sentence? Brazilians pay for their imported products in dollars, get paid in dollars, buy foreign companies in dollars, buy Miami in dollars and so on. Brazilian GDP in 2011 was of 4.2 trillion reais which is 2.5 trillion dollars which is 12,900 dollars per capita. That's simple and plain.


----------



## Motul

Yuri S Andrade said:


> It's only a fairy tale, an imaginary world.


For brazillians :lol:

Just because you have an over valued currency :yes:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Really? That's your argument? Come on! You can do better (or maybe not)...

And no, Brazilian currency is not overvalued. It's just about right. Other countries, due severe internal weakness, maybe have their currencies undervalued. When they manage to solve those issues, probably their currencies will get stronger. Let's wait and see.


----------



## Motul

If you are trying to offend me, my country's currency is one of the most revalued in L.A.

If you are referring to the exchange rate, I hope you know the reason why it's so high is because we are the ONLY country in Latin America which has NEVER changed or devalued our currency in our 200 years as a republic.. You've had 3 changes at least, right?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
I was thinking about Argentina, but anyway... 

Colombia's economy is growing fast, the country has solid institutions and eventually they could have a strong GDP per capita. They're just not there yet.


----------



## Motul

Argentina is another story :crazy:.. A complete paradox.


----------



## messicano

IDH(HDI) is a fairy tale?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
No, it's not. Why?


----------



## Bandit

I love how this thread is basically a Rorschach test. It seems everyone thinks a dollar in the US is the same value everywhere else. So you're basically judging everyone by it. People like to say Chinese make only a dollar a day. Can an American live on a dollar a day? No, they would die. So how is it that a Chinese person can live on a dollar a day? How can China be the largest car market in the world when no one can afford to buy a car that runs about the same price as in the US? From the opposite end, let's not forget how many countries the wealth is among only the few... sometimes you can count them on your two hands. So if you take away those figures from the wealthy, the actual average income drops down to poverty levels.


----------



## Codename B

^^

Don't take that list serious, they should predict what will happen next year instead.
There's a lot of errors, for example Thailand GDP (Current Prices, US Dollars) in 2010 was not US$187 billion, but US$318 billion and Thailand population is not 69-70 million. It is only 64-65 million.

http://www.economywatch.com/economic-statistics/country/Thailand/


----------



## Jonesy55

Bandit said:


> I love how this thread is basically a Rorschach test. It seems everyone thinks a dollar in the US is the same value everywhere else. So you're basically judging everyone by it. .


Er no, did you miss the whole PPP discussion?


----------



## Motul

Colombia will surpass Thailand's GDP in the next 3 years :colgate:


----------



## Jonesy55

Has Colombia invented time travel?


----------



## Motul

Jonesy55 said:


> Has Colombia invented time travel?


Nope, but it's growing faster than Thailand, around 6% in 2011, 5,5% this year, with a similar GDP, around $330 billion even with 20 million less people.

I believe Thailand grew less than 4% in 2011..


----------



## Jonesy55

Still some way behind in PPP terms though I think.


----------



## Codename B

Motul said:


> Nope, but it's growing faster than Thailand, around 6% in 2011, 5,5% this year, with a similar GDP, around $330 billion even with 20 million less people.
> 
> I believe Thailand grew less than 4% in 2011..


It is less than 4%, because of the thai flood. Btw I was surprised to see that Thailand and Colombia have similar GDP and also GDP per capita. 

---------------------------

*Thailand Statistics in 2011*

GDP (Current Prices, US Dollars): 332.47 Billion 
GDP (PPP): 616.783 Billion

GDP Per Capita (Current Prices, US Dollars): 5,173.71
GDP Per Capita (PPP): 9,598.01

With Thailand current growth, it will be at least 2025-2030 for it to become a high income country, unless Thailand decides to speed up growth, then it would be sooner. :lol:


----------



## Motul

Another thing in common: Colombia also had the worse floods in history, it's thought to have hampered growth by atleast 1%.

GDP;

Thailand:

2010: $318 billion ($4,900)
2011: $332 billion ($5,100)
PPP: $616 billion ($9,600)

Colombia:

2010: $288 billion ($6,200)
2011: $330 billion ($7,100)
PPP: $480 billion ($10,500)


----------



## Motul

Colombia grew on average 4% annually for the last 40 years. Now it's starting to grow more than 6%, the government is working on the infrastructure so that we start growing 8%.. Growth in Q3 was 7,7%, so we are seeing signs of an acceleration of the economy.

A big part of all this is the growth in FDI, which reached $15 billion last year, and also oil output, which will reach 1,2 million bpd during the present year.


----------



## Skyprince

Many Latin American states have higher nominal per-capita than many Asian countries, but when adjuster to PPP they are lower. Why is that ? Quite interesting.


----------



## Motul

Skyprince said:


> Many Latin American states have higher nominal per-capita than many Asian countries, but when adjuster to PPP they are lower. Why is that ? Quite interesting.


It's more expensive over here? :dunno:..


----------



## Skyprince

Motul said:


> It's more expensive over here? :dunno:..


I just checked the prices of bus travel, eating in fast food ( goods & services ) etc in Brazil , they all seem to be 2-3 times more expensive than here. 

In Malaysia the examples:

Average price for male haircut ( in a typical barber shop ) - 2.50 USD, 
Travelling 400 km by bus - 13.00 USD 
Big Mac - 2.20 USD 
Fuel price ( 1 litre ) - 0.60 USD 

It's really strange and amazing to think that u earn more $$$ while in the same time buying power ( locally ) can be lower . Wud be interesting to know the magic behind this.


----------



## Skyprince

^^ Wow look at Brazil, Uruguay , Chile !!


----------



## isakres

^^ The Big Mac Index is an informal way of measuring PPP between two currencies.

The Bigger the Big Mac Index, the more overvalued the currency against the USD.

The Lower the Index, the more undervalued against USD.

Asian economies are more export oriented and even South Korea and Hong Kong seems to prefer undervalued currencies.


----------



## isakres

Skyprince said:


> I just checked the prices of bus travel, eating in fast food ( goods & services ) etc in Brazil , they all seem to be 2-3 times more expensive than here.
> 
> In Malaysia the examples:
> 
> Average price for male haircut ( in a typical barber shop ) - 2.50 USD,
> Travelling 400 km by bus - 13.00 USD
> Big Mac - 2.20 USD
> Fuel price ( 1 litre ) - 0.60 USD
> 
> It's really strange and amazing to think that u earn more $$$ while in the same time buying power ( locally ) can be lower . Wud be interesting to know the magic behind this.


Prices are nuts in Brazil plus, the overvalued Real didnt help at all to foreigners.


----------



## Acosta

Bandit said:


> I love how this thread is basically a Rorschach test. It seems everyone thinks a dollar in the US is the same value everywhere else. So you're basically judging everyone by it. People like to say Chinese make only a dollar a day. Can an American live on a dollar a day? No, they would die. So how is it that a Chinese person can live on a dollar a day? How can China be the largest car market in the world when no one can afford to buy a car that runs about the same price as in the US? From the opposite end, let's not forget how many countries the wealth is among only the few... sometimes you can count them on your two hands. So if you take away those figures from the wealthy, the actual average income drops down to poverty levels.


:applause: :applause: :applause:


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

isakres said:


> Prices are nuts in Brazil plus, the overvalued Real didnt help at all to foreigners.


Why, in your opinion, real is overvalued? The currency exchange is free around here. Actually, Brazilian Central Bank by dollars to devalue real. Brazil had a 30 billion dollars of trade surplus (260 bi exp; 230 bi imp) in 2011. Quite hard to have a trade surplus with an overvalued currency.

And this BigMac is uttelry stupid. In Europe, McDonald's is for poor people. In Brazil's, is a middle-class entertainment. Nice restaurants, regarded as expensive for everybody. You cannot compare.




Bandit said:


> I love how this thread is basically a Rorschach test. It seems everyone thinks a dollar in the US is the same value everywhere else. So you're basically judging everyone by it. People like to say Chinese make only a dollar a day. Can an American live on a dollar a day? No, they would die. So how is it that a Chinese person can live on a dollar a day? How can China be the largest car market in the world when no one can afford to buy a car that runs about the same price as in the US? From the opposite end, let's not forget how many countries the wealth is among only the few... sometimes you can count them on your two hands. So if you take away those figures from the wealthy, the actual average income drops down to poverty levels.


We're talking about GDP, macroeconomics here. It's not about income or wages. US$ 1.00 is US$ 1.00 everywhere. If I get in China with a 100 dollars, I'll get 600-700 iuans; in Argentina, 400-450 pesos; in Brazil, 170-180 reais and so on.


----------



## isakres

Yuri S Andrade said:


> Why, in your opinion, real is overvalued?
> The currency exchange is free around here. Actually, Brazilian Central Bank by dollars to devalue real. Brazil had a 30 billion dollars of trade surplus (260 bi exp; 230 bi imp) in 2011. Quite hard to have a trade surplus with an overvalued currency.


Having a Floating Exchange Rate doesnt mean the currency cant be Overvalued or Undervalued. As a matter of fact floating exchange currencies can start appreciation and depreciation processes depending on demand and supply and other variables such as Interest Rates, Inflation, foreign capital moving into the country etc etc. According to the Floating Exchange Rates Theory, Central Banks shouldnt intervene currencies unless the situation is out of control.

There is plenty of information published in the media (Bloomberg / Nasdaq / Forex / etc) about the Real getting stronger. Moreover, you can make a historical analysis about the Exchange Rate R$ vs USD$ (more than 5 years) and include such variables as Inflation (or any other Indicator of Cost of Goods), Imports, Exports, Interest Rates, BOVESPA Index etc and make your own analysis. 



Yuri S Andrade said:


> And this BigMac is uttelry stupid. In Europe, McDonald's is for poor people. In Brazil's, is a middle-class entertainment. Nice restaurants, regarded as expensive for everybody. You cannot compare.


Big Mac is cheap stuff here. About the Index .....meeehh...




Yuri S Andrade said:


> We're talking about GDP, macroeconomics here. It's not about income or wages. US$ 1.00 is US$ 1.00 everywhere. If I get in China with a 100 dollars, I'll get 600-700 iuans; in Argentina, 400-450 pesos; in Brazil, 170-180 reais and so on.


It happens that if you take the costs of life into the equation, the equality USD$ 1 = $600 Yuans starts to be relative.


----------



## Acosta

Yuri S Andrade said:


> We're talking about GDP, macroeconomics here. It's not about income or wages. US$ 1.00 is US$ 1.00 everywhere. If I get in China with a 100 dollars, I'll get 600-700 iuans; in Argentina, 400-450 pesos; in Brazil, 170-180 reais and so on.


That's why you should use nominal on comparing economies and PPP on comparing GDP per capita (here the cost of living is very important).


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
The idea is to measure the productivity of each person in the country. The ability of each person to produce money, dollars. 

But you see, I don't understand the necessary corelation between GDP per capita and wages or income or quality of life like people wanna make here.




isakres said:


> Having a Floating Exchange Rate doesnt mean the currency cant be Overvalued or Undervalued. As a matter of fact floating exchange currencies can start appreciation and depreciation processes depending on demand and supply and other variables such as Interest Rates, Inflation, foreign capital moving into the country etc etc. According to the Floating Exchange Rates Theory, Central Banks shouldnt intervene currencies unless the situation is out of control.
> 
> There is plenty of information published in the media (Bloomberg / Nasdaq / Forex / etc) about the Real getting stronger. Moreover, you can make a historical analysis about the Exchange Rate R$ vs USD$ (more than 5 years) and include such variables as Inflation (or any other Indicator of Cost of Goods), Imports, Exports, Interest Rates, BOVESPA Index etc and make your own analysis.


We have no elements to state real is overvalued. It's not. It's just about right. Although Brazilian exporters cry all the time, the 30 billion dollar trade surplus is there. What can people do if the dollars keep coming to the country? I for myself love to have all those imported goods in the supermarkets.

And real is not getting stronger. It _was_ getting stronger in the first half of 2011, when it went under 1.60. Now it's around 1.80 after a sharp fall in September.


----------



## Motul

Acosta said:


> That's why you should use nominal on comparing economies and PPP on comparing GDP per capita (here the cost of living is very important).



+1.. that's absolutely right.


----------



## isakres

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> 
> We have no elements to state real is overvalued. It's not. It's just about right. Although Brazilian exporters cry all the time, the 30 billion dollar trade surplus is there. What can people do if the dollars keep coming to the country? I for myself love to have all those imported goods in the supermarkets.


Funny you found no elements to state real is overvalued but you found elements to state it is not :|

Anyway, you could find such elements if you make the analysis I recomended just a post before. The net also has plenty of information about the real getting stronger since the early 2000s.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Yes, I can't find them because they don't exist. If real was overvalued, Brazil wouldn't be able to have such big trade surplus. Like I said, only a couple of exporters are complaining, which is odd as Brazilian trade is obtaining a two-digits growth.

Real is getting stronger as Brazilian economy, Brazilian reputation is getting stronger. It's a natural process, so there's no need to use prefixs over- or under-. In 2003, when real plunged to 1:4 against the dollar, it was a symptom of Brazilian weakness and lack of credit (_lato sensu_). Again, a natural process.


----------



## Pradable

Sorry if i'm lost since this is my first post. 

It's not a question that Brazil is having big problems with inflation, and i think that might be affecting in the short term their prices, but as far as i remember Brazil has always been expensive, but not as much as compared to Europe... Last time i went there for holidays it was summer of 2011, and their prices were similar to US, Canada and Australia, but any case they were as high as in Europe.
I bought a Big Mac in Santa Catarina, which it's one of the most expensive parts of brazil it costs like "13 Reais" = Almost 8 dollars.

But the Mcdonalds products can't be for comparison, since in South America they are not so famous, unless you're in Chile, but those products are usually eaten by foreigners and the upper-classes so they tend to be more expensive than in the US or Canada for example.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Acosta said:


> That's why you should use nominal on comparing economies and PPP on comparing GDP per capita (here the cost of living is very important).


Correct!

You can buy more things in China with $10 than you can in USA. The cost if living must be considered when comparing per capita incomes in different countries.


----------



## Acosta

Pradable said:


> Sorry if i'm lost since this is my first post.
> 
> It's not a question that Brazil is having big problems with inflation, and i think that might be affecting in the short term their prices, but as far as i remember Brazil has always been expensive, but not as much as compared to Europe... Last time i went there for holidays it was summer of 2011, and their prices were similar to US, Canada and Australia, but any case they were as high as in Europe.
> I bought a Big Mac in Santa Catarina, which it's one of the most expensive parts of brazil it costs like "13 Reais" = Almost 8 dollars.
> 
> But the Mcdonalds products can't be for comparison, since in South America they are not so famous, unless you're in Chile, but those products are usually eaten by foreigners and the upper-classes so they tend to be more expensive than in the US or Canada for example.


What? Mc Donald's is for lower middle class, middle class and upper middle class, basically.


----------



## Mr.Ffff

McDonalds is considered by most an expensive place to eat, here in brazil. But there are others fast-food places much more expensive. So I agree with Acosta.

You know what's really expensive here? Google the prices of iPads (or tablets in general) and cars... I'm not saying these prices should be use for comparison though. It's just a curiosity for the "foreigners".


----------



## Pradable

Acosta said:


> What? Mc Donald's is for lower middle class, middle class and upper middle class, basically.


You are putting in one box all fast food, Mcdonalds and Burguer King are basically for upper and middle class, that's why they're located in the high income neighborhood, despite of the ones located at malls, for lower classes you have other franchises like "Doggis" and other cheaper fast foods.


----------



## apinamies

Isn't fast food always cheap in every country? Here it is cheap, it is food that even poor people can afford.


----------



## xrtn2

Food at supermarkets is very cheap in Brazil


----------



## henrique42

''Food at supermarkets is very cheap in Brazil''

if you only eat beans, rice and lettuce

for those who read portuguese, this article explains that the cost of life in brazil is more expensive than in the usa.

http://economia.estadao.com.br/noti...e-vida-do-brasil-supera-o-dos-eua,99424,0.htm

it's not easy in a country where the minimum wage is 622 reais, while you need at least 2350 reais to fulfill the basic needs

http://economia.estadao.com.br/noti...ia-ser-de-r-234926-calcula-dieese,94755,0.htm


----------



## apinamies

xrtn2 said:


> Food at supermarkets is very cheap in Brazil


In here food really expensive in supermarkets. We don't have any competition. We have two chains which dominate.


----------



## Acosta

Supermarkets are also overpriced in Brazil.


----------



## Erran

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Yes, I can't find them because they don't exist. If real was overvalued, Brazil wouldn't be able to have such big trade surplus. Like I said, only a couple of exporters are complaining, which is odd as Brazilian trade is obtaining a two-digits growth.
> 
> Real is getting stronger as Brazilian economy, Brazilian reputation is getting stronger. It's a natural process, so there's no need to use prefixs over- or under-. In 2003, when real plunged to 1:4 against the dollar, it was a symptom of Brazilian weakness and lack of credit (_lato sensu_). Again, a natural process.


Over/Under value is used to adjust the different value of nominal USD in different countries, since not all people in this whole world are using US Dollar as exchange tool (money/currency) to purchase goods in their local markets.

Let say 1 USD equal to 9000 Rupiahs. You can buy 1 kilo apples in the USA with that 1 USD. But in other country, Indonesia, you can bay 2 kilos apples with that 9000 Rupiahs. 

You can buy different amount/number of products despite the nominal value of both 1 USD and 9000 Rupiahs is the same (currency exchange). The different real value to purchase goods of nominal 1 USD and nominal 9000 Rupiahs is what we call over/undervalue of money, adjusted with PPP (nominal and PPP USA's will be the same). So of course PPP does exist tho you can't see what it is, but it won't change the fact that it exists.


----------



## Acosta

:yes: That's so obvious.


----------



## xrtn2

Acosta said:


> Supermarkets are also overpriced in Brazil.


The food in supermarkets are very cheap in all Brazil, there are a lot big chains.


----------



## t3ars_culprit

Really got no idea about PPP and nominal.. But I think to compare a person buying power in their own country, we should have use the PPP instead of nominal.. Since you are going to stay there for the longest time? no?

If food in your country is expensive (Your buying power is lower), you are not going to fly to neighbour country for cheaper food rite (So your buying power will be higher, which is lolx)?


----------



## isakres

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Yes, I can't find them because they don't exist. If real was overvalued, Brazil wouldn't be able to have such big trade surplus. Like I said, only a couple of exporters are complaining, which is odd as Brazilian trade is obtaining a two-digits growth.
> 
> Real is getting stronger as Brazilian economy, Brazilian reputation is getting stronger. It's a natural process, so there's no need to use prefixs over- or under-. In 2003, when real plunged to 1:4 against the dollar, it was a symptom of Brazilian weakness and lack of credit (_lato sensu_). Again, a natural process.


Seriously dude.

http://www.economiaetecnologia.ufpr.br/textos_discussao/texto_para_discussao_ano_2011_texto_01.pdf

Lots of articles of Bloomberg, WSJ, and even papers are available in the net, i just posted a paper from a Brazilian reasercher.


----------



## anakngpasig

all of our Aussie expat colleagues are paid under our mother company's payroll in Australia but they live here in cheapo third world, and they all agree it's the perfect setup, they can't believe everything's so dirt cheap here :lol:

then, some of us were sent to Sydney for one month training and each got AU$6,000 for one month expenses. they all thought they hit the jackpot with that much allowance only to find out that Sydney is so effin' expensive. they all changed their minds about hitting the jackpot after just two weeks of staying :lol:


----------



## apinamies

South Korea wipe floor to all three countries!


----------



## isakres

Where s Uruguay?


----------



## nawat001

^^ 
for my opinion 
within 5 years


----------



## xrtn2

^^not 

Uruguay 2021


São Paulo state in 2023 ( Brazil)

y hello World - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1461930&highlight=road









































































































][/IMG]


----------



## seems

RaySthlm said:


> I am from Sweden


Sweden is a great country... if you're really from sweden, I wonder why do you measure a country's development status from its skyscrapers when many cities in sweden and other western european cities don't have as many as skyscrapers as bangkok yet they are developed nations? weird, isn't it? ...

ok kid, time to go to bed...


----------



## seems

nawat001 said:


> but I see 3/4 of your profile are only in this thread
> didn't think someone like you can blame other people
> aren't you are homeless ghost too ?


errr but nobody calls me foreigner...:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## seems

xrtn2 said:


> 2018 Chile
> 
> 2020 Argentina
> 
> 2027 Mexico
> 
> 2030 Brazil ( the sourthern brazil in 2023)
> 
> 2036 Colombia
> 
> 2040 Thailand
> 
> 2042 South Africa
> 
> 2048 Indonesia
> 
> 2050 China
> 
> 2090 India
> 
> 2100 Bangladesh


I think China will be developed as fast as Brazil, and Malaysia as fast as Argentina.


----------



## seems

xrtn2 said:


> ^^not
> 
> Uruguay 2021
> 
> 
> São Paulo state in 2023 ( Brazil)


are all roads in brazil as good as in those pictures? if they are then they are as good as in any developed country! :cheers:


----------



## isakres

Bogotá has far better pics than those posted. It may not have this fancy skyscrapers but seriously the city has decent living standards.

To determine how much developed a city / country is, we have to dig deeper right behind the skyscrapers (specially here in SSC).


----------



## ibl

RaySthlm said:


> I posted pics of Bogotas downtown and its airport. If you want to dig into slum I have pics of Bogota and Bangkok as well. So what we can see here is that Bangkok looks far more advanced than Bogota. Bogotas airport looks like a prison.


Downtown Bogota is far from the city´s more modern districts, on the contrary it kind of stood still from the mid 80´s until now when several new projects are in place to try and revitilize the area. The northern districts are far nicer, modern as most large companies moved their offices out there. I will leave you the following link so you can see what the city really is all about. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1045881

Airport wise you are right, Bangkoks is one of the prettiest in the world and Bogota is not exactly very nice. Yet the 1 billion dollar renovation project is well under way and the firts phase of the new airport will open mid 2012.


----------



## Codename B

Please no more fighting and country comparison.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Is this guy serious? He's saying Thailand is more developed than Colombia based in pictures of Bangkok and Bogotá?!?!?!?! Really?!?!

What about GDP per capita, HDI?


----------



## Neungz

Codename B said:


> Please no more fighting and country comparison.


:righton:


----------



## xrtn2

seems said:


> are all roads in brazil as good as in those pictures? if they are then they are as good as in any developed country! :cheers:


Yeah but in southern brazil .

But 95% brazilian roads ( all states) are good condition. (data 2011)


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

xrtn2 said:


> 2018 Chile
> 
> 2020 Argentina
> 
> 2027 Mexico
> 
> 2030 Brazil ( the sourthern brazil in 2023)
> 
> 2036 Colombia
> 
> 2040 Thailand
> 
> 2042 South Africa
> 
> 2048 Indonesia
> 
> 2050 China
> 
> 2090 India
> 
> 2100 Bangladesh


I'll correct these:

2020 Argentina

2025 Mexico

2030 China

2035 Brazil

2040 Colombia

2040 Thailand

2050 South Africa

2050 Indonesia

2070 India

2090 Bangladesh


----------



## xrtn2

^^

brazil 2035

non sense

China HDI

0,680

Brazil HDI

0,720

China never will pass Brazil in the next 20 years.

http://www1.internationalliving.com/qofl2011/

Quality of life index 2011

Brazil 66

Cost of Living	73
Leisure & Culture	75
Economy	58
Environment	51
Freedom	83
Health	57
Infrastructure	44
Risk & Safety	89
Climate	80

Final Score	66

China 57

Cost of Living	73
Leisure & Culture	64
Economy	78
Environment	28
Freedom	8
Health	48
Infrastructure	25
Risk & Safety	71
Climate	90

Final Score 57


----------



## GaFe

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Is this guy serious? He's saying Thailand is more developed than Colombia based in pictures of Bangkok and Bogotá?!?!?!?! Really?!?!
> 
> What about GDP per capita, HDI?


Based in bad pics, thinking development is highrises.

So, that cant be considered "development":






































Marriott Ciudad Salitre









Parque Sauzalito 









Museo Interactivo Maloka









Centro comercial Gran Estación


----------



## skyscraper 500

Mexico-! :banana:



Hotu Matua said:


> Hasta quedar ciego por Hotu Matua, en Flickr





What_The_Face said:


> Paseo de la Reforma by dieter_titz, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Monumento de la Indenpendencia by dieter_titz, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Monumento de la Indenpendencia by dieter_titz, on Flickr




:cheers:


----------



## ibl

GaFe said:


> thinking development is highrises.


Which would mean Norway is third world....


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

ibl said:


> Which would mean Norway is third world....


+ Switzerland, Finland, Sweden and many others


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

xrtn2 said:


> ^^
> 
> brazil 2035
> 
> non sense
> 
> China HDI
> 
> 0,680
> 
> Brazil HDI
> 
> 0,720
> 
> China never will pass Brazil in the next 20 years.
> 
> http://www1.internationalliving.com/qofl2011/
> 
> Quality of life index 2011
> 
> Brazil 66
> 
> Cost of Living	73
> Leisure & Culture	75
> Economy	58
> Environment	51
> Freedom	83
> Health	57
> Infrastructure	44
> Risk & Safety	89
> Climate	80
> 
> Final Score	66
> 
> China 57
> 
> Cost of Living	73
> Leisure & Culture	64
> Economy	78
> Environment	28
> Freedom	8
> Health	48
> Infrastructure	25
> Risk & Safety	71
> Climate	90
> 
> Final Score 57


There is a very high chance that China will surpass Brazil within 10 years.

GDP per capita with projection










HDI


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xrtn2 said:


> ^^
> 
> brazil 2035
> 
> non sense
> 
> China HDI
> 
> 0,680
> 
> Brazil HDI
> 
> 0,720
> 
> China never will pass Brazil in the next 20 years.


Really?
GDP per capita:
1965:
Brazil 258
China 97
Democratic Republic of Congo 231
South Korea 106
Malaysia 333
Thailand 138
1970:
Brazil 441
China 112
Democratic Republic of Congo 241
South Korea 279
Malaysia 392
Thailand 192
1975:
Brazil 1143
China 176
Democratic Republic of Congo 439
South Korea 608
Malaysia 803
Thailand 351
1980:
Brazil 1372
China 205
Democratic Republic of Congo 519
South Korea 1689
Malaysia 1812
Thailand 696
1985:
Brazil 1903
China 290
Democratic Republic of Congo 205
South Korea 2414
Malaysia 2026
Thailand 751
1990:
Brazil 3464
China 341
Democratic Republic of Congo 227
South Korea 6308
Malaysia 2432
Thailand 1521
1995:
Brazil 4845
China 601
Democratic Republic of Congo 116
South Korea 11 779
Malaysia 4358
Thailand 2826
2000:
Brazil 3751
China 946
Democratic Republic of Congo 80
South Korea 11347
Malaysia 4030
Thailand 1983
2005:
Brazil 4832
China 1726
Democratic Republic of Congo 118
South Korea 17551
Malaysia 5213
Thailand 2825
2010:
Brazil 10816
China 4382
Democratic Republic of Congo 186
South Korea 20756
Malaysia 8423
Thailand 4992

Look at how South Korea passed Brazil between 1975 and 1980.

Are you sure China cannot pass Brazil in 20 years?


----------



## isakres

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> + Switzerland, Finland, Sweden and many others


+1


----------



## Motul

RaySthlm said:


> Bogota, Colombia


It's a terrible pic, im sure I can find bad pictures of Bangkok too.. I won't drop that low tho..

Both cities have different styles. Bogota is classic, elegant and organized for a city of 8 million, Bangkok is modern, bustling and contrasting.. We don't have supertalls, but the city is quite pleasant.


----------



## Motul

isakres said:


> Bogotá has far better pics than those posted. It may not have this fancy skyscrapers but seriously the city has decent living standards.
> 
> To determine how much developed a city / country is, we have to dig deeper right behind the skyscrapers (specially here in SSC).



Thanks, that's without mentioning that Bogota is NOT our only worthwhile city...


----------



## xrtn2

chornedsnorkack said:


> Really?
> GDP per capita:
> 
> 
> Look at how South Korea passed Brazil between 1975 and 1980.
> 
> Are you sure China cannot pass Brazil in 20 years?


China cannot pass Brazil in 20 years, this data shows that.


----------



## Erran

xrtn2 said:


> China cannot pass Brazil in 20 years, this data shows that.


:lol:
See the trend, China is booming lately, not decades ago.

He tries to show you that Korean did, and may be China *will*.


----------



## nawat001

xrtn2 said:


> China cannot pass Brazil in 20 years, this data shows that.


There're a lot of different between china city
some province are same as developed country, developing and undeveloped


----------



## Motul

nawat001 said:


> There're a lot of different between china
> some province are same as developed country, developing and undeveloped


Same with Brazil.


----------



## CarltonHill

*PHILIPPINES*: maybe in 2040's (if we manage to have a continued positive gdp growth)

Newly Industrialized Country
Next Eleven Economy
GDP: $394Billion - (behind Thailand, Indonesia)
Per Capita: $4,111 - (behind Indonesia, ahead of Vietnam, India)
HDI: 0.644 - (ahead of Indonesia, Vietnam, India, almost the same with Thailand)
Unemployment: 6.4%
Public Debt: 52.4% of gdp
2005-2010 ave gdp growth: 5%

Cityscapes:


















^^ skyline


















^^ street level









^^ tall buildings









^^ suburban


Transportation:









^^ train, railway (metro area)









^^ skyway - south of the metro









^^ sctex - northern provinces


----------



## isakres

Seriously, pics are useless to show how developed a city is.

After some trips around here and other trips around there, must say PIB PPP and HDI are a good proxy about what you will find in the country you are about to visit.


----------



## oliver999

xrtn2 said:


> ^^
> 
> brazil 2035
> 
> non sense
> 
> China HDI
> 
> 0,680
> 
> Brazil HDI
> 
> 0,720
> 
> China never will pass Brazil in the next 20 years.
> 
> http://www1.internationalliving.com/qofl2011/
> 
> Quality of life index 2011
> 
> Brazil 66
> 
> Freedom	83
> 
> Final Score	66
> 
> China 57
> 
> Freedom	8
> 
> Final Score 57


why china freedom only score 8 points???


----------



## Erran

*Indonesia*

GDP nominal 2011 : US$+/- 1 trillion (projected to be US$9 trllion in 2030 :nuts: , staggering but not impossible)
GDP percapita nominal by IMF 2011 estimation : US$3,469
GDP percapita PPP by IMF 2011 estimation : US$4,668

Economic growth
2007: 6.3%
2008: 6.1%
2009: 4.5%
2010: 6.1%
2011: 6.6% (est)

HDI: 0.617 (2011)
Pop. Growth: 1.07% (2011, gradually decreases from 1.63% in 2000)
Labor force: 116.5 mil (2010 est)
Unemployment: 6.8% (as of February 2011)
Public Debt: 26.4% (2010, gradually decreases from 56.2% in 2004)


----------



## Pradable

I've never been in China, but the big problem is that everyone puts "Shanghai, Beijing and all big cities" in the same box with the towns and littles ones that are inside the country, one of my best friends went with his family there, and he said it felt that only shanghai and all big citites IN THE COAST were growing and not all China, that's probably why China it's 102 in HDI ranking.
I honestly don't think China can surpass Brazil in the next 10 years, i don't know about 20 cause China is growing really really fast.


----------



## isakres

Of course inner China is still miles away of been reached decent living standards. Of course you will find extreme poverty as their GDP PPP and HDI figures states.


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

Erran said:


> *Indonesia*
> 
> GDP nominal 2011 : US$+/- 1 trillion (projected to be US$9 trllion in 2030 :nuts: , staggering but not impossible)





You would need an average of 13% yearly growth for the next 18 years. Seems legit :lol:


----------



## Skyprince

To become a developed country IMO is not only about numbers and industries.

We have to be careful to to fall onto "South Asian trap" of its infrastructure and living standard fail to keep up with its GDP per-capita. 

Sri Lanka has higher per-capita income than Morocco but why is Morocco's infrastructure SO MUCH advanced than Srilanka , the peop;e are surprisingly more disciplined, its cities are far more cleaner, the housing condition is alot better than whatever I saw in Sri Lanka ? 

Same with India when compared to Philippines & Vietnam. Why Philippines and Vietnam look far more advanced, orderly and absolutely livable than India ? 

How about the general road and infrastructure condition in Brazil, Colombia,Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela and Chile ?


----------



## momo45

Why all people there many compare the economy growth with city skyline?? It's not unfair


----------



## Erran

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> You would need an average of 13% yearly growth for the next 18 years. Seems legit :lol:


There are many elements that affect how big the GDP will be (in US Dollar), not only % of economic growth. 
Appreciation of National currency vs US Dollar can also play significant role.

Indonesia's GDP nominal 2009: US$539 billion 
Indonesia's GDP nominal 2010: US$707 billion 
If you only use simple math than you will get= (707 bil - 539 bil)/539 bil = 31% :lol:

Anyway, the est of GDP 2011 will be US$1 trillion
Let see how much the % of growth :lol:= (1000 bil - 707 bil)/707 bil = 41% 

See?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Pradable said:


> I've never been in China, but the big problem is that everyone puts "Shanghai, Beijing and all big cities" in the same box with the towns and littles ones that are inside the country, one of my best friends went with his family there, and he said it felt that only shanghai and all big citites IN THE COAST were growing and not all China, that's probably why China it's 102 in HDI ranking.


2005:
China average 1732
Shanghai 6290
Zhejiang 3382
Jiangsu 2998
Guangdong 2983
Shandong 2453
Sichuan 1106
Guizhou 617
2010:
China average 4430 - 256%
Shanghai 11238 - 179% 
Zhejiang 7639 - 226%
Jiangsu 7806 - 260%
Guangdong 6608 - 222%
Shandong 6072 - 248%
Sichuan 3129 - 283%
Guizhou 1953 - 317%


----------



## apinamies

Ulpia-Serdica when you think that Bulgaria will be developed? I just ask for curiosity.


----------



## sarimanok

momo45 said:


> Why all people there many compare the economy growth with city skyline?? It's not unfair


Somehow the skyscraper boom(and other infrastructure) is _one _of indicators that a certain place is developing or improving. These buildings were built knowing that people in that place has the purchasing capability or in need for offices/banks etc. In short, confidence from investors.

But that is just only 1 indicator.


I say time will tell! Hehe! For me, as long as our country is developing (not stagnated) I'm happy. No need for cvc.

Cheers and advanced Happy Chinese Lunar New Year to all!


----------



## castermaild55

> Originally Posted by GaFe
> thinking development is highrises.
> Which would mean Norway is third world....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulpia-Serdica said:
> 
> 
> 
> + Switzerland, Finland, Sweden and many others
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

:lol::lol:

Dont worry. as far living quality, They could not be attained eternity 
I think we have to see what is happening in EU.
Now, History is turning...
Ｉ　think EU entered into non-growrh age like Japan from 1990 because we dont need much
Democracy is the relics of the past.



financial capitalism makes rich（1％） and poor （99） now
and it was making real economy expansion.
Financial capital and a financial market have always exceeded the scale of substance industry. 
Once growth of the world economy stops, it will fall into the vicious circle of "crisis amplification" and "crisis explosion." 
even though they develops,　they could not make like Switzerland, Finland, Sweden and many others because of expansion of the difference of wealth and poverty 

btw
I think financial capitalism collapses
Islamic financial system uprise..
Malaysia might get a chance to take over .


----------



## xrtn2

Skyprince said:


> How about the general road and infrastructure condition in Brazil, Colombia,Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela and Chile ?


95% of brazilian road is Good or very Good conditions. (data 2011)


----------



## oliver999

Pradable said:


> I've never been in China, but the big problem is that everyone puts "Shanghai, Beijing and all big cities" in the same box with the towns and littles ones that are inside the country, one of my best friends went with his family there, and he said it felt that only shanghai and all big citites IN THE COAST were growing and not all China, that's probably why China it's 102 in HDI ranking.
> I honestly don't think China can surpass Brazil in the next 10 years, i don't know about 20 cause China is growing really really fast.


if china keeps 9% growth every year,will catch up brazil in 7 years. 2011,china GDP 7.5 billion USD,5770 usd per capital
2012 6289 usd
2013 6855
2014 7472
2015 8144
2016 8877
2017 9676
2018 10547
i did not count RMB exchange rate rise factor.
this is a small city where i lived in. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1478380&highlight=china


----------



## xrtn2

^^ And Brazil will not grow ??

The brazilian GDP in 2018 ~ 15,000 USD


----------



## little universe

chornedsnorkack said:


> 2005:
> China average 1732
> Shanghai 6290
> Zhejiang 3382
> Jiangsu 2998
> Guangdong 2983
> Shandong 2453
> Sichuan 1106
> Guizhou 617
> 2010:
> China average 4430 - 256%
> Shanghai 11238 - 179%
> Zhejiang 7639 - 226%
> Jiangsu 7806 - 260%
> Guangdong 6608 - 222%
> Shandong 6072 - 248%
> Sichuan 3129 - 283%
> Guizhou 1953 - 317%



^^

According to the Chinese News from Sohu.com i read a few days ago. For *Year 2011*, *Beijing *Municipality and *Shanghai *Municipiaity's *Nominal GDP per Capital* reached *US$12,447* and *US$12,784* seperately. If those numbers multiply each city's populations *20 million* and *23 million*, The new Total GDP figures would come out as *US$249 Billion* and *US$294 Billion*. 

The other source also suggested that My home province *Zhejiang*(54.4 million population) and neighbouring *Jiangsu* province(78.6 million population)'s *Nominal GDP per Capital* would also surpass *US$10,000 *by the end of this year (2012). They are the Two Best Performing Provinces in terms of GDP per Capital among all Normal Provinces in China. :cheers:

PS. Chinese Currency RMB rose 5% against US Dollar Last Year.


----------



## oliver999

sarimanok said:


> Somehow the skyscraper boom(and other infrastructure) is _one _of indicators that a certain place is developing or improving. These buildings were built knowing that people in that place has the purchasing capability or in need for offices/banks etc. In short, confidence from investors.
> 
> But that is just only 1 indicator.
> 
> 
> I say time will tell! Hehe! For me, as long as our country is developing (not stagnated) I'm happy. No need for cvc.
> 
> Cheers and advanced Happy Chinese Lunar New Year to all!


happy lunar new year!:cheers: i will be 35 year old tomorrow


----------



## oliver999

xrtn2 said:


> ^^ And Brazil will not grow ??
> 
> The brazilian GDP in 2018 ~ 15,000 USD


anyway,hope brazil can reach developed soon


----------



## oliver999

little universe said:


> ^^
> According to the Chinese News from Sohu.com i read a few days ago. For *Year 2011*, *Beijing *Municipality and *Shanghai *Municipiaity's *GDP per Capital* reached *US $12447* and *US $12784* seperately. If those numbers multiply each city's populations 20 million and 23 million, The new Total GDP figures would come out as *US $249 Billion* and *US $294 Billion*.
> 
> The other source also suggested that My home province *Zhejiang* and neighbouring province *Jiangsu*'s *GDP per Capital* would also surpass *US $10000 *by the end of this year (2012). They are the Two Best Performing Provinces in terms of GDP per Capital for Normal Provinces in China. :cheers:


now i know you are from zhejiang province.that's a really developed province,super rich(far more richer than dates from statistics bureau).


----------



## little universe

^^
Yeah, we are neighbours and we both speak Wu Chinese. Happy Lunar New Year, Oliver999! :lol:


----------



## Motul

Skyprince said:


> To become a developed country IMO is not only about numbers and industries.
> 
> We have to be careful to to fall onto "South Asian trap" of its infrastructure and living standard fail to keep up with its GDP per-capita.
> 
> Sri Lanka has higher per-capita income than Morocco but why is Morocco's infrastructure SO MUCH advanced than Srilanka , the peop;e are surprisingly more disciplined, its cities are far more cleaner, the housing condition is alot better than whatever I saw in Sri Lanka ?
> 
> Same with India when compared to Philippines & Vietnam. Why Philippines and Vietnam look far more advanced, orderly and absolutely livable than India ?
> 
> How about the general road and infrastructure condition in Brazil, Colombia,Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela and Chile ?


Colombia's infrastructure acts as a
Bottleneck to growth.. It's very insufficient compared to the countries needs and the demand of the new FTA with USA. 

Thankfully, each year $25-$30 billion is invested in it, and just in transport infrastructure (roads, trains, airports, etc..) the plan is to invest $50 billion in the next 5 years. By the end of the decade Colombia should have world class infrastructure, comparable to a country like Malaysia :yes:

This year, part of the new billion dollar airport will be opened, it will be the best one in Latin America.


----------



## Motul

That sounds like a lot of Baht ... And yes, the airport is in Bogota. The current terminal handled 21 million passengers this year, so this new one is more than urgent and will have capacity for 40 million passengers.


----------



## sarimanok

oliver999 said:


> happy lunar new year!:cheers: i will be 35 year old tomorrow


OT:I'm not really into Chinese zodiac but, I've heard that person born on year of the snake is the luckiest this year..


:cheers:


----------



## HMMS

messicano said:


> PPP and IDH:bash:
> 
> argentina is not poorer than brazil:bash:


I was in Argentina, and saw so much poverty !!!!!!!!!


----------



## HMMS

Skyprince said:


> ^^ Wow look at Brazil, Uruguay , Chile !!


Mc Donald's is very bad, so it is always expensive !!!!!!!!!!!!:bash:

In Brazil or in any other country !!!!!!!!

But, there are several fast food in Brazil, much better and cheaper, not only
Mc Donalds, thankfully !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Acosta

Have you already opened your window? (knowing that you're from Brazil)


----------



## HMMS

Yuri S Andrade said:


> How Uruguay makes its currency reserve? What they get with their exports and pay for their imports? Don't you undestand PPP DOESN'T exist? It's only a fairy tale, an imaginary world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> Brazilian economy is indeed much bigger than Argentina's. The same for per capita. And how is HDI related to this?
> 
> BTW if you believe in PPP you should me send 1,000 dollars and I'll give you 2,000 pesos in return. If you don't, please don't bring this PPP crap to the conversation. The thing is: US$ 1.00 = 4.20 pesos. The whole world (including Argentines buying dollars round-the-clock) operates under that assumption. The rest is fantasy. Wishful thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't. I was just responding the claim by which Uruguay was overated. It's not. They have a very strong economy and the biggest GDP per capita of Latin America.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Oh dear... I don't operate like you. I've been posting GDP's lists forever. Brazilian used to be the 15th largest economy in the world back then. In any case, I don't care about the size of Brazilian economy. I have no positive or negative feelings about the country over this issue.
> 
> And what is the meaning of your last sentence? Brazilians pay for their imported products in dollars, get paid in dollars, buy foreign companies in dollars, buy Miami in dollars and so on. Brazilian GDP in 2011 was of 4.2 trillion reais which is 2.5 trillion dollars which is 12,900 dollars per capita. That's simple and plain.


I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!


PPP is still very debatable one index needs to be better formulated.


----------



## messicano

Skyprince said:


> To become a developed country IMO is not only about numbers and industries.
> 
> We have to be careful to to fall onto "South Asian trap" of its infrastructure and living standard fail to keep up with its GDP per-capita.
> 
> Sri Lanka has higher per-capita income than Morocco but why is Morocco's infrastructure SO MUCH advanced than Srilanka , the peop;e are surprisingly more disciplined, its cities are far more cleaner, the housing condition is alot better than whatever I saw in Sri Lanka ?
> 
> Same with India when compared to Philippines & Vietnam. Why Philippines and Vietnam look far more advanced, orderly and absolutely livable than India ?
> 
> How about the general road and infrastructure condition in Brazil, Colombia,Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela and Chile ?


Mexico


----------



## messicano

HMMS said:


> I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> PPP is still very debatable one index needs to be better formulated.


brazil economy grow:3% per year

brazil gdp nominal grow:30% per year

:nuts::nuts:


----------



## nawat001

^^
I think ppp is the real development
nominal is always hard to calculate


----------



## GaFe

RaySthlm said:


> Thailand will spend 2.27 trillion baht in the next 5 years on infrastructure .


How is possible to have a budget bigger than its economy???:nuts::nuts:


----------



## megacity30

GaFe said:


> How is possible to have a budget bigger than its economy???:nuts::nuts:


It's possible ; by obtaining credit from international agencies, or other countries like the USA, India, China etc.


----------



## GaFe

I have just figured it was talking in bahts, no dollars.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Look the PM I've just gotten from our Thai friend:

_Yeah I am serious, are you serious? *It will probably take Colombia 40-50 years to come up to the same level as Thailand*, if Thailand stood still for 40-50 years. Development today is still far more advanced than Colombia. Just look at Thailands budget on infrastructure for the next 5 years, which will be 2,3 trillion baht, maybe most in the world. 

Colombias best looking city (Cartagena) looks like one of Thailands many beach resorts. So comparing Colombias biggest/capital city against Thailands proves a lot of things. 

*You wanna follow stupid statistics more than real photos?* Sure, go ahead. 
Build a decent airport first of all, or maybe that is not needed, Colombia barely has tourists anyway, that is why your airport looks like a prison from hell. That also shows how bad Colombia is doing. A prison as an airport pffft, what a joke!_


:lol:

He's not real. He's got to be messing with us.


----------



## Motul

:rofl:


----------



## seems

xrtn2 said:


> ^^ And Brazil will not grow ??
> 
> The brazilian GDP in 2018 ~ 15,000 USD


why compare brazil with china when it's china who buys most of brazil exports... read many reports, brazil and many latin american growth is thanks to china which become their largest buyer 

gdp is also heavily influenced by currency exchange, we all know that china keep its currency low against usd...if china rmb is as overvalued as latin american countries currencies, no need to wait 50 years, perhaps right now china gdp/capita has already surpassed many latam countries... but we all know that developing east asian countries prefer to be manufacturing exporters, while latam countries are commodities exporters...that's why many developing east asian countries prefer to have low currency to draw FDI in...


----------



## chornedsnorkack

little universe said:


> The other source also suggested that My home province *Zhejiang*(54.4 million population) and neighbouring *Jiangsu* province(78.6 million population)'s *Nominal GDP per Capital* would also surpass *US$10,000 *by the end of this year (2012). They are the Two Best Performing Provinces in terms of GDP per Capital among all Normal Provinces in China. :cheers:


How shall the 2011 total GDP of loyal Zhejiang province compare with the 2011 total GDP of the rebellious Taiwan Province?


----------



## Jonesy55

Isn't it the PRC that is rebellious against the Chinese government which is residing in exile in Taipei?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
That's not what your government thought back in 1949...


-------------------------------------------------------


To help us in this discussion China vs. Brazil, here a chart comparing both countries' states/provinces back in 2009:



Yuri S Andrade said:


> (...)
> 
> *País -- PIB 2009 (US$) -- Pop. 2010
> 
> China --- 4.990.550.000.000 --- 1.339.724.852
> Brasil --- 1.600.841.000.000 --- 190.732.694*
> 
> 
> *Estados -- PIB 2009 (US$) -- Pop. 2010*
> 
> 1. Guangdong -- 577.991.000.000 -- 104.303.132
> 
> 2. São Paulo -- 536.808.000.000 -- 41.252.160
> 
> 3. Jiangsu -- 504.425.000.000 -- 78.659.903
> 
> 4. Shandong -- 496.218.000.000 -- 95.793.065
> 
> 5. Zhejiang -- 336.559.000.000 -- 54.426.891
> 
> 6. Henan -- 285.177.000.000 -- 94.023.567
> 
> 7. Hebei -- 252.313.000.000 -- 71.854.202
> 
> 8. Liaoning -- 222.698.000.000 -- 43.746.323
> 
> 9. Shanghai -- 220.267.000.000 -- 23.019.148
> 
> 10. Sichuan -- 207.163.000.000 -- 80.418.200
> 
> 11. Hunan -- 191.183.000.000 -- 65.683.722
> 
> 12. Hubei -- 189.739.000.000 -- 57.237.740
> 
> 13. Fujian -- 179.132.000.000 -- 36.894.216
> 
> 14. Beijing -- 177.910.000.000 -- 19.612.368
> 
> 15. Rio de Janeiro -- 175.187.000.000 -- 15.993.583
> 
> 16. Anhui -- 147.311.000.000 -- 59.500.510
> 
> 17. Inner Mongolia -- 142.589.000.000 -- 24.706.321
> 
> 18. Minas Gerais -- 142.106.000.000 -- 19.595.309
> 
> 19. Heilongjiang -- 125.706.000.000 -- 38.312.224
> 
> 20. Shaanxi -- 119.599.000.000 -- 37.327.378
> 
> 21. Guangxi -- 113.587.000.000 -- 46.026.629
> 
> 22. Jiangxi -- 112.065.000.000 -- 44.567.475
> 
> 23.Tianjin -- 110.113.000.000 -- 12.938.224
> 
> 24. Shanxi -- 107.719.000.000 -- 35.712.111
> 
> 25. Rio Grande do Sul -- 106.863.000.000 -- 10.695.532
> 
> 26. Jilin -- 106.555.000.000 -- 27.462.297
> 
> 27. Chongqing -- 95.594.000.000 -- 28.846.170
> 
> 28. Paraná -- 94.055.000.000 -- 10.439.601
> 
> 29. Yunnan -- 90.320.000.000 -- 45.966.239
> 
> 30. Bahia -- 67.859.000.000 -- 14.021.432
> 
> 31. Distrito Federal -- 65.093.000.000 -- 2.562.963
> 
> 32. Santa Catarina -- 64.260.000.000 -- 6.249.682
> 
> 33. Xinjiang -- 62.612.000.000 -- 21.813.334
> 
> 34. Guizhou -- 57.278.000.000 -- 34.746.468
> 
> 35. Gansu -- 49.591.000.000 -- 25.575.254
> 
> 36. Goiás -- 42.384.000.000 -- 6.004.045
> 
> 37. Pernambuco -- 38.826.000.000 -- 8.796.032
> 
> 38. Espírito Santo -- 33.051.000.000 -- 3.512.672
> 
> 39. Ceará -- 32.527.000.000 -- 8.448.055
> 
> 40. Pará -- 28.912.000.000 -- 7.588.078
> 
> 41. Mato Grosso -- 28.363.000.000 -- 3.033.991
> 
> 42. Amazonas -- 24.807.000.000 -- 3.480.937
> 
> 43. Hainan -- 24.216.000.000 -- 8.671.518
> 
> 44. Ningxia -- 19.811.000.000 -- 6.176.900
> 
> 45. Maranhão -- 19.730.000.000 -- 6.569.683
> 
> 46. Mato Grosso do Sul -- 18.004.000.000 -- 2.449.341
> 
> 47. Qinghai -- 15.829.000.000 -- 6.301.350
> 
> 48. Paraíba -- 14.217.000.000 -- 3.766.834
> 
> 49. Rio Grande do Norte -- 13.814.000.000 -- 3.168.133
> 
> 50. Alagoas -- 10.512.000.000 -- 3.120.922
> 
> 51. Rondônia -- 10.018.000.000 -- 1.560.501
> 
> 52. Sergipe -- 9.786.000.000 -- 2.068.031
> 
> 53. Piauí -- 9.422.000.000 -- 3.119.015
> 
> 54. Tocantins -- 7.213.000.000 -- 1.383.453
> 
> 55. Tibet -- 6.461.000.000 -- 3.002.166
> 
> 56. Amapá -- 3.665.000.000 -- 668.689
> 
> 57. Acre -- 3.656.000.000 -- 732.793
> 
> 58. Roraima -- 2.769.000.000 -- 451.227
> 
> (...)



------------------------------------------------------------------




seems said:


> why compare brazil with china when it's china who buys most of brazil exports... read many reports, brazil and many latin american growth is thanks to china which become their largest buyer
> 
> gdp is also heavily influenced by currency exchange, we all know that china keep its currency low against usd...if china rmb is as overvalued as latin american countries currencies, no need to wait 50 years, perhaps right now china gdp/capita has already surpassed many latam countries... but we all know that developing east asian countries prefer to be manufacturing exporters, while latam countries are commodities exporters...that's why many developing east asian countries prefer to have low currency to draw FDI in...


If China let the iuan alone, they'll hurt their exports and probably will have a trade deficit. And bye-bye a 9% growth. A weak iuan it's not sign of a stronger China, but a weak one.

And that's not about "prefer to have a low currency", but a dirty trick of inneficient countries to get a trade surplus.


----------



## seems

Yuri S Andrade said:


> And that's not about "prefer to have a low currency", but a *dirty trick* of inneficient countries to get a trade surplus.


I prefer to call it "strategy"


----------



## Jonesy55

What would happen if all countries used this 'strategy'?


----------



## seattle92

> You wanna follow stupid statistics more than real photos? Sure, go ahead.


God save SSC teenagers :lol:


----------



## seems

Jonesy55 said:


> What would happen if all countries used this 'strategy'?


unfortunately (or fortunately) they don't.

rich countries can buy commodities cheaply with high currency exchange

they transform those commodities into value added products in countries with low currency exchange (mostly East Asian)

East Asian countries need to have low currency exchange to attract FDI since they don't have enough capital

Latam countries sell commodities, and import goods cheaply with overvalued currency
some imported goods benefit only the rich
that's why inequality in Latam countries is very high
and that's why it is said that some Latam countries are too dependent to commodities' selling economy

my 2 cents theory


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Asia needs undervalued currencies because they're not competitive enough, they're not strong enough (Cher?). So, they need to use these kind of protectionist measure and for politics reason, the world doesn't react. It's like I said: without devaluation, China would have an huge trade deficit and its economic growth would be cut by half, at least. They need raw products, but the world doesn't need their ever more expensive (and not good) goods.

Latin American currencies are not overvalued. They're where they should be. Specifically about Brazil, a strong real is mirroring a strong country. The abundance of imports in Brazil (US$ 230 bi) is very good for everybody, especially for poor people. That helps the country to halt the inflation. The supermarkets are full of imported products. 

And please, let's drop this Latin American inequality thing. Brazilian minimum wage grows way above inflation and GDP growth for ages. In 2011, we had a 14% of increase in the minimum wage (US$ 350), against 6% of inflation and 2.8% of GDP growth. And before people say that will push people out of labour market, the country created 2 million formal jobs in 2011. 




Jonesy55 said:


> What would happen if all countries used this 'strategy'?


The million dollar question... I always ask this to myself when I hear Brazilian exporters complaining about the government policies, like the currency flotation.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Yuri S Andrade said:


> To help us in this discussion China vs. Brazil, here a chart comparing both countries' states/provinces back in 2009:


Adding the omitted results
China - 4991 - 1339,7 - 3725
Brazil - 1601 - 190,73 - 8394

Guangdong - 578,0 - 104,3 - 5542
Sao Paulo - 536,8 - 41,2 - 13 029
Jiangsu - 504,4 - 78,7 - 6409
Shandong - 469,2 - 95,79 - 4898
Zhejiang - 336,6 - 54,43 - 6184
Henan - 285,2 - 94,02 - 3033
Hebei - 252,3 - 71,85 - 3511
Liaoning - 222,7 - 43,75 - 5090
Shanghai - 220,2 - 23,02 - 9566
Sichuan - 207,2 - 80,42 - 2576
Hunan - 191,18 - 65,68 - 2911
Hubei - 189,74 - 57,24 - 3315
Fujian - 179,13 - 36,89 - 4856
Beijing - 177,91 - 19,612 - 9071
Rio de Janeiro - 175,19 - 15,994 - 10953
Anhui - 147,31 - 59,50 - 2476
Inner Mongolia - 142,59 - 24,71 - 5771
Minas Gerais - 142,11 - 19,595 - 7252
Heilongjiang - 125,71 - 38,31 - 3281
Shaanxi - 119,60 - 37,33 - 3204
Guangxi - 113,59 - 46,03 - 2468
Jiangxi - 112,07 - 44,57 - 2514
Tianjin - 110,11 - 12,938 - 8511
Shanxi - 107,72 - 35,71 - 3017
Rio Grande do Sul - 106,83 - 10,695
Jilin - 106,56 - 27,46 - 3881
Chongqing - 95,59 - 28,85 - 3313
Parana - 94,06 - 10,44 - 9010
Yunnan - 90,32 - 45,97 - 1965
Bahia - 67,86 - 14,021 - 4840
Brasilia - 65,09 - 2,563 - 25396
Santa Catarina - 64,26 - 6,250
Xinjiang - 62,61 - 21,81 - 2871
Guizhou - 57,28 - 34,75 - 1648
Gansu - 49,59 - 25,58 - 1939
Goias - 42,38 - 6,004 - 7059
Pernambuco - 38,83 - 8,796 - 4415
Espirito Santo - 33,05 - 3,513 - 9408
Ceara - 32,53 - 8,448 - 3851
Para - 28,91 - 7,588
Mato Grosso - 28,36 - 3,034
Amazonas - 24,81 - 3,481
Hainan - 24,22 - 8,672
Ningxia - 19,811 - 6,177
Maranhao - 19,73 - 6,570 - 3003
Mato Grosso do Sul - 18,004 - 2,009
Qinghai - 15,829 - 6,301
Paraiba - 14,217 - 3,767 - 3774
-
Alagoas - 10,512 - 3,121 - 3368
-
Piaui - 9,422 - 3,119 - 3021
Tocantins
Tibet - 6,461 - 3,002 - 2152
Amapa
Acre
Roraima - 2,769 - 0,4512 - 6137

A lot of writing to do. But by my count, as of 2009, 3 states of Brazil - Maranhao, Alagoas, Piaui - were poorer than China on average.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
I've just completed this list, adaptating Brazilian 2009 states/regions figures to 2011 ones. And indeed, 3 Brazilian states have a smaller GDP per capita than China. Note, however, there are some distortions on states GDP (oil, mining, public sector), and a higher GDP per capita doesn't mean the state is necessarily wealth. The bottom 3, however, are indeed Brazilian poorer states (Maranhão, the poorest, than Piauí and after them, Alagoas):

*GDP per capita IMF 2011*

1. Luxembourg --- 122,272
2. Qatar --- 97,967
3. Norway --- 96,591
4. Switzerland --- 84,983
5. Australia --- 66,984
6. United Arab Emirates --- 66,625
7. Denmark --- 63,003
8. Sweden --- 61,098
9. Netherlands --- 51,410
10. Canada --- 51,147
11. Singapore --- 50,714
12. Austria --- 50,504
13. Finland --- 50,090
14. Ireland --- 48,517
15. United States --- 48,147
16. Belgium --- 48,110
17. Kuwait --- 46,461
18. Japan --- 45,774
19. Germany --- 44,558
20. France --- 44,401
21. Iceland --- 43,226
22. United Kingdom --- 39,604
_--- Distrito Federal --- 38,502_
23. New Zealand --- 38,227
24. Italy --- 37,046
25. Brunei --- 36,521
--- European Union --- 35,887
--- Hong Kong --- 34,393
26. Spain --- 33,298
27. Israel --- 32,298
28. Cyprus --- 31,435
29. Greece --- 27,875
30. Slovenia --- 25,939
31. South Korea --- 23,749
32. Bahrain --- 23,410
33. Bahamas --- 23,175
34. Portugal --- 22,699
35. Malta --- 22,058
36. Oman --- 21,681
37. Taiwan --- 21,592
38. Czech Republic --- 20,938
_--- São Paulo --- 20,002_
39. Saudi Arabia --- 19,890
40. Slovakia --- 17,889
_--- Centro-Oeste --- 17,073_
41. Estonia --- 16,880
_--- Sudeste --- 16,906_
_--- Rio de Janeiro --- 16,873_
42. Trinidad and Tobago --- 16,693
43. Antigua and Barbuda --- 16,284
_--- Santa Catarina --- 16,195_
44. Barbados --- 15,799
_--- Rio Grande do Sul --- 15,098_
45. Hungary --- 14,808
_--- Sul --- 14,752_
46. Uruguay --- 14,672
_--- Espírito Santo --- 14,615_
_--- Mato Grosso --- 14,570_
47. Croatia --- 14,529
48. Equatorial Guinea --- 14,374
49. Chile --- 13,970
50. Poland --- 13,967
_--- Paraná --- 13,572_
51. Russia --- 13,236
52. Lithuania --- 13,190
*53. Brazil --- 12,917*
54. Saint Kitts and Nevis --- 12,687
55. Latvia --- 12,226
_--- Mato Grosso do Sul --- 11,761_
_--- Amazonas --- 11,161_
56. Seychelles --- 11,117
_--- Goiás --- 11,028_
57. Gabon --- 10,982
58. Kazakhstan --- 10,951
_--- Minas Gerais --- 10,938_
59. Libya --- 10,873
60. Mexico --- 10,803
61. Argentina --- 10,640
62. Turkey --- 10,576
63. Lebanon --- 10,474
64. Venezuela --- 10,409
_--- Rondônia --- 10,272_
_--- Roraima --- 10,130_
--- World --- 9,998
_--- Amapá --- 9,021_
65. Botswana --- 8,844
66. Romania --- 8,666
67. Malaysia --- 8,617
_--- Tocantins --- 8,609_
68. Mauritius --- 8,520
69. Costa Rica --- 8,489
70. Panama --- 8,421
71. South Africa --- 8,342
_--- Acre --- 8,158_
_--- North --- 8,111_
72. Grenada --- 7,913
73. Saint Lucia --- 7,522
74. Azerbaijan --- 7,510
_--- Sergipe --- 7,471_
75. Suriname --- 7,281
76. Bulgaria --- 7,243
_--- Bahia --- 7,149_
77. Colombia --- 6,980
78. Dominica --- 6,833
_--- Pernambuco --- 6,795_
_--- Rio Grande do Norte --- 6,789_
79. Montenegro --- 6,668
80. Maldives --- 6,499
81. Saint Vincent and the Grenadines --- 6,447
82. Serbia --- 6,268
83. Iran --- 6,260
_--- Nordeste --- 6,235_
84. Belarus --- 6,118
85. Namibia --- 6,087
_--- Pará --- 5,999_
_--- Ceará --- 5,868_
_--- Paraíba --- 5,815_
86. Peru --- 5,614
87. Dominican Republic --- 5,406
88. Jamaica --- 5,376
89. Thailand --- 5,281
90. China --- 5,184
_--- Alagoas --- 5,136_
91. Angola --- 5,061
92. Macedonia --- 5,012
93. Algeria --- 5,001
_--- Maranhão --- 4,778_
94. Bosnia and Herzegovina --- 4,715
_--- Piauí --- 4,619_
95. Tunisia --- 4,593
96. Jordan --- 4,542
97. Turkmenistan --- 4,362
98. Ecuador --- 4,352
99. Belize --- 4,349
100. Albania --- 4,131
101. El Salvador --- 3,831
102. Fiji --- 3,806
103. Congo --- 3,792
104. Cape Verde --- 3,737
105. Tonga --- 3,648
106. Ukraine --- 3,575
107. Indonesia --- 3,469
108. Paraguay --- 3,421
109. Swaziland --- 3,332
110. Iraq --- 3,306
111. Guyana --- 3,202
112. Morocco --- 3,162
113. Mongolia --- 3,131
114. Guatemala --- 3,117
115. Georgia --- 3,098
116. Vanuatu --- 3,081
117. Kosovo --- 3,064
118. Syria --- 3,050
119. Samoa --- 3,049
120. Armenia --- 3,048
121. Tuvalu --- 2,960
122. Egypt --- 2,922
123. Sri Lanka --- 2,864
124. Bhutan --- 2,299
125. Philippines --- 2,255
126. Bolivia --- 2,246
127. Honduras --- 2,105
128. Moldova --- 2,021
129. Sudan --- 1,939
130. Kiribati --- 1,832
131. Papua New Guinea --- 1,712
132. Ghana --- 1,588
133. Nigeria --- 1,541
134. Uzbekistan --- 1,529
135. India --- 1,527
136. Djibouti --- 1,500
137. Yemen --- 1,460
138. Solomon Islands --- 1,457
139. São Tomé and Príncipe --- 1,382
140. Vietnam --- 1,362
141. Zambia --- 1,355
142. Cameroon --- 1,234
143. Mauritania --- 1,227
144. Laos --- 1,204
145. Nicaragua --- 1,202
146. Pakistan --- 1,164
147. Senegal --- 1,096
148. Côte d'Ivoire --- 1,049
149. Lesotho --- 1,040
150. Kyrgyzstan --- 970
151. Chad --- 920
152. Cambodia --- 912
153. Kenya --- 882
154. Tajikistan --- 862
155. Comoros --- 853
156. Burma --- 804
157. Mali --- 796
158. Benin --- 756
159. Haiti --- 739
160. Zimbabwe --- 735
161. Bangladesh --- 690
162. Burkina Faso --- 670
163. Timor-Leste --- 649
164. Nepal --- 644
165. Gambia --- 620
166. Guinea-Bissau --- 585
167. Rwanda --- 585
168. Afghanistan --- 575
169. Mozambique --- 551
170. Tanzania --- 550
171. Togo --- 511
172. Central African Republic --- 483
173. Eritrea --- 473
174. Uganda --- 453
175. Guinea --- 438
176. Madagascar --- 428
177. Niger --- 428
178. Ethiopia --- 351
179. Malawi --- 350
180. Sierra Leone --- 347
181. Liberia --- 258
182. Congo, DR --- 211
183. Burundi --- 197


----------



## Erran

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> *Asia needs undervalued currencies because they're not competitive enough,* they're not strong enough (Cher?). So, they need to use these kind of protectionist measure and for politics reason, the world doesn't react. It's like I said: without devaluation, China would have an huge trade deficit and its economic growth would be cut by half, at least. They need raw products, but the world doesn't need their ever more expensive (and not good) goods.
> .


AFAIK, fixed exchange rate/pegged exchange rate is economic strategy, and is not recognized as protectionism.
If Latam countries wanna practice the same strategy, just do it . . . But I'm not sure they can, since it needs huge foreign reserves to play supply-demand of USD-Your_National_Currency to keep the exchange rate at fixed value, in case of China, it's undervalued (below the value of normal floating exchange rate). 

P.S. = Pls don't make generalization, Japanese and Korean products are among the most competitive in the world. No need to write them down one by one, you know very well who they are.



> Latin American currencies are not overvalued. They're where they should be. Specifically about Brazil, a strong real is mirroring a strong country. *The abundance of imports in Brazil (US$ 230 bi) is very good for everybody, especially for poor people. That helps the country to halt the inflation. The supermarkets are full of imported products. *


Thanx to cheap made in China products :lol:

Anyway, under/overvalue does exist even if your country practices floating exchange rate. The only country in the world without under/overvalue is USA himself, since he's the benchmark of determination.

(Like my country, Indonesia practices floating exchange rate, yet its currency is still undervalued by US$)


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## Jonesy55

Of course fixing your currency at an artificially low level is protectionism, it makes imports more expensive so that foreign producers can't compete in your market and floods the world with your products that might not be bought if the price were more.


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## Yuri S Andrade

Erran said:


> AFAIK, fixed exchange rate/pegged exchange rate is economic strategy, and is not recognized as protectionism.
> If Latam countries wanna practice the same strategy, just do it . . . But I'm not sure they can, since it needs huge foreign reserves to play supply-demand of USD-Your_National_Currency to keep the exchange rate at fixed value, in case of China, it's undervalued (below the value of normal floating exchange rate).
> 
> P.S. = Pls don't make generalization, Japanese and Korean products are among the most competitive in the world. No need to write them down one by one, you know very well who they are.


I think I expressed myself poorly. I didn't mean to put in check Chinese monetary policy. I was only answering a forumer who talked about China as if the parity was a matter of choice. China, for several reasons, needs it. So it's worthless to talk about China "as if" 1 dollar were 4 iuans, Chinese GDP would be much larger and things would remain the same. They wouldn't.

And about Japan, well, when yen has gotten stronger, their trade surplus vanished.




Erran said:


> Thanx to cheap made in China products :lol:
> 
> Anyway, under/overvalue does exist even if your country practices floating exchange rate. The only country in the world without under/overvalue is USA himself, since he's the benchmark of determination.
> 
> (Like my country, Indonesia practices floating exchange rate, yet its currency is still undervalued by US$)


You're wrong about China products in Brazil, as other countries are more useful over this matter:



Yuri S Andrade said:


> *Brazil's International Trade 2011*
> 
> Exports: *US$ 256 billion*
> Imports: *US$ 226 billion*
> 
> 25.7% growth in the year
> Market share: 1.3%
> 
> Exports to:
> China --- 44.3 billion
> US --- 25.9 billion
> Argentina --- 22.7 billion
> Netherlands --- 13.6 billion
> Japan --- 9.5 billion
> 
> Imports from:
> US --- 34.2 billion
> China --- 32.8 billion
> Argentina --- 16.9 billion
> Germany --- 15.2 billion
> South Korea --- 10.1 billion
> 
> http://www.mdic.gov.br/sitio/interna/noticia.php?area=5&noticia=11216


When I talked about supermarkets, I was talking about European products. No one in Brazil would by this kind of products from China. Chinese stuff, only the ones made of plastic.


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## Jonesy55

Nobody buys iPads or stuff like that in Brazil?


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## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Those things in Brazil are obscenously expensive. Only a very small section of population are rich enough to get them. And as they're rich, they have better things to do than to get obsessed with those toys, unlike the consumerist section of the middle-classes in rich countries.


----------



## Motul

In Colombia technology enters without paying taxes, so we have the same prices as USA.. MacBook Pro: $1,200. iPad: $500... Basic Acer netbooks start at $200, etc..

It's part of the government's plan to impulse Internet connection amongst the population as a tool to reduce poverty. Penetration is now at 53%, I believe Brazil is at 42%.


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## Jonesy55

I see, are there any other imports that attract these very high taxes in Brazil? I know cars and electronics can be very expensive there. Are the duties the same wherever the import is from or do some countries suffer higher rates than others?


----------



## seems

Jonesy55 said:


> Of course fixing your currency at an artificially low level is protectionism, it makes imports more expensive so that foreign producers can't compete in your market and floods the world with your products that might not be bought if the price were more.


when we talk about protectionism, it's usually done by tariff control, not by currency exchange control...


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## Jonesy55

There are many ways to do it, tariffs, quotas, currency manipulation, regulations created to benefit domestically produced goods etc etc.


----------



## seems

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Latin American currencies are not overvalued. They're where they should be. Specifically about Brazil, a strong real is mirroring a strong country. The abundance of imports in Brazil (US$ 230 bi) is very good for everybody, especially for poor people. That helps the country to halt the inflation. The supermarkets are full of imported products.


the economist has a fun idea to know whether a country currency is overvalued or not by using bigmac index, in which the index shows that most of latam currencies are overvalued... of course that methode is far from being scientific, but still show something...

Erran is right, floating rate doesn't mean it's in the "right" position... the gov't still can influence the market through its reserve, normally through its federal/central bank...


----------



## seems

Yuri S Andrade said:


> And please, let's drop this Latin American inequality thing. Brazilian minimum wage grows way above inflation and GDP growth for ages. In 2011, we had a 14% of increase in the minimum wage (US$ 350), against 6% of inflation and 2.8% of GDP growth. And before people say that will push people out of labour market, the country created 2 million formal jobs in 2011.


The widely accepted income inequality measurement is Gini index. Gini index of Latam countries are in general very high. Brazil has Gini index of 54, Colombia 58, very high compared to European (Denmark 25, Finland 28) and even to most of East Asian countries (Philippines 44, Indonesia 37, China 42, Malaysia 46).

2 million new formal jobs in a year is impressive, kuddos for Brazil government



Yuri S Andrade said:


> *Brazil's International Trade 2011*
> 
> Exports: *US$ 256 billion*
> Imports: *US$ 226 billion*
> 
> 25.7% growth in the year
> Market share: 1.3%
> 
> Exports to:
> China --- 44.3 billion
> US --- 25.9 billion
> Argentina --- 22.7 billion
> Netherlands --- 13.6 billion
> Japan --- 9.5 billion
> 
> Imports from:
> US --- 34.2 billion
> China --- 32.8 billion
> Argentina --- 16.9 billion
> Germany --- 15.2 billion
> South Korea --- 10.1 billion
> 
> http://www.mdic.gov.br/sitio/interna/noticia.php?area=5&noticia=11216


Perhaps
Imports from US are bought by rich Brazilians
imports from China are bought by poor Brazilians 
another proof of inequality then (joke)


----------



## messicano

the brazilian GDP nominal is a Joke,grow like 40% per year,but the economy grow "in mexican style(3-4%),no in china style(8-10%)

argentina economy grow 7-8%
brazil economy grow 3-4%

brazil GDP nominal economic grow 30-40%


----------



## seems

Jonesy55 said:


> There are many ways to do it, tariffs, quotas, currency manipulation, regulations created to benefit domestically produced goods etc etc.


yes, there are many more than tariffs (you need to thanks wikipedia for that list you made ), but currency control isn't among them... when you say protectionism, it's more to protect your product in *the domestic market*, as far as I'm concerned...for example, dumping practiced by Japanese... currency control by China is designed to make their export more competitive in *the foreign market* and attract FDI, rather than to protect their products for the domestic market....


----------



## Motul

messicano said:


> the brazilian GDP nominal is a Joke,grow like 40% per year,but the economy grow "in mexican style(3-4%),no in china style(8-10%)
> 
> argentina economy grow 7-8%
> brazil economy grow 3-4%
> 
> brazil GDP nominal economic grow 30-40%


Inflation in Brazil almost doubles that of Mexico's, and also the Real's revaluation has an impact on nominal GDP growth..


----------



## messicano

brazil has a gdp ppp per capita lower than argentina,mexico,uruguay,chile and panama
brazil has a HDI lower than chile,argentina,cuba,mexico,uruguay,costa rica,panama and peru

brazil economy grow 3 or 4%

his GDP nominal is a joke


----------



## Jonesy55

seems said:


> yes, there are many more than tariffs (you need to thanks wikipedia for that list you made ), but currency control isn't among them... when you say protectionism, it's more to protect your product in the domestic market, as far as I'm concerned...for example, dumping practiced by Japanese...


:laugh: I didn't even look at Wikipedia this time 

Fixed currencies (at a below market level) do protect domestic products in the domestic market, as they make imports more expensive and thus less attractive to domestic consumers....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aUfFcvYQthng


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Jonesy55 said:


> I see, are there any other imports that attract these very high taxes in Brazil? I know cars and electronics can be very expensive there. Are the duties the same wherever the import is from or do some countries suffer higher rates than others?


No, I don't think there are any distinctions between countries. The thing is taxes are huge in Brazil not only over imports. Cars, for instance, which are produced domestically is also insanely high. And on top of it, Brazilian taxes target especially consumption, production, labour and not estate or assets.



seems said:


> The widely accepted income inequality measurement is Gini index. Gini index of Latam countries are in general very high. Brazil has Gini index of 54, Colombia 58, very high compared to European (Denmark 25, Finland 28) and even to most of East Asian countries (Philippines 44, Indonesia 37, China 42, Malaysia 46).


I think it's quite hard to talk about this subject as people usually assume a 54 Gini means the country has 1% of people making 1 million dollars/month while 99% make 1 dollar a day.



Motul said:


> Inflation in Brazil almost doubles that of Mexico's, and also the Real's revaluation has an impact on nominal GDP growth..


This messicano has no idea what his talking about. It's worthless.

Only an observation: a high inflation usually means devaluation of currency which balances the things a bit.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

As we're talking about consume in Brazil, here the presence of selected goods in the *Brazilian households* (IBGE Census 2010):

*TV*

BRASIL --- 95.04%

NORTE --- 87.20%
NORDESTE --- 92.26%
CENTRO-OESTE --- 94.75%
SUDESTE --- 97.36%
SUL --- 96.81%

Acre --- 87.17%
Rondônia --- 89.69%
Amazonas --- 87.78%
Roraima --- 86.64%
Amapá --- 93.67%
Pará --- 85.79%
Tocantins --- 87.44%
Maranhão --- 88.33%
Piauí --- 86.61%
Ceará --- 94.04%
Rio Grande do Norte --- 95.44%
Paraíba --- 95.28%
Pernambuco --- 94.99%
Alagoas --- 93.43%
Sergipe --- 94.42%
Bahia --- 90.23%
Distrito Federal --- 98.18%
Goiás --- 95.51%
Mato Grosso --- 90.96%
Mato Grosso do Sul --- 93.92%
Espírito Santo --- 96.65%
Minas Gerais --- 95.70%
Rio de Janeiro --- 98.34%
São Paulo --- 97.79%
Paraná --- 95.88%
Santa Catarina --- 97.55%
Rio Grande do Sul --- 97.25%



*Fridge*

BRASIL --- 93.66%

NORTE --- 87.76%
NORDESTE --- 86.51%
CENTRO-OESTE --- 96.02%
SUDESTE --- 97.53%
SUL --- 97.98%

Acre --- 87.66%
Rondônia --- 93.56%
Amazonas --- 82.73%
Roraima --- 86.09%
Amapá --- 87.38%
Pará --- 79.87%
Tocantins --- 88.68%
Maranhão --- 84.44%
Piauí --- 83.84%
Ceará --- 87.89%
Rio Grande do Norte --- 92.65%
Paraíba --- 88.56%
Pernambuco --- 89.21%
Alagoas --- 85.64%
Sergipe --- 90.20%
Bahia --- 83.17%
Distrito Federal --- 98.08%
Goiás --- 96.37%
Mato Grosso --- 94.55%
Mato Grosso do Sul --- 94.80%
Espírito Santo --- 97.62%
Minas Gerais --- 94.85%
Rio de Janeiro --- 98.25%
São Paulo --- 98.50%
Paraná --- 97.48%
Santa Catarina --- 98.87%
Rio Grande do Sul --- 97.94%



*Washing Machine*

BRASIL --- 47.24%

NORTE --- 28.63%
NORDESTE --- 18.99%
CENTRO-OESTE --- 43.27%
SUDESTE --- 61.13%
SUL --- 65.56%

Acre --- 25.60%
Rondônia --- 30.83%
Amazonas --- 40.97%
Roraima --- 41.33%
Amapá --- 38.35%
Pará --- 23.89%
Tocantins --- 17.39%
Maranhão --- 12.83%
Piauí --- 11.35%
Ceará --- 17.22%
Rio Grande do Norte --- 27.29%
Paraíba --- 19.98%
Pernambuco --- 23.02%
Alagoas --- 17.14%
Sergipe --- 22.91%
Bahia --- 19.32%
Distrito Federal --- 67.27%
Goiás --- 38.40%
Mato Grosso --- 35.81%
Mato Grosso do Sul --- 39.85%
Espírito Santo --- 42.93%
Minas Gerais --- 41.11%
Rio de Janeiro --- 65.96%
São Paulo --- 70.13%
Paraná --- 58.20%
Santa Catarina --- 73.34%
Rio Grande do Sul --- 67.99%



*PC*

BRASIL --- 38.27%

NORTE --- 22.64%
NORDESTE --- 21.19%
CENTRO-OESTE --- 39.15%
SUDESTE --- 47.96%
SUL --- 46.08%

Acre --- 24.44%
Rondônia --- 28.91%
Amazonas --- 26.51%
Roraima --- 26.68%
Amapá --- 26.66%
Pará --- 18.81%
Tocantins --- 21.97%
Maranhão --- 13.47%
Piauí --- 15.31%
Ceará --- 19.21%
Rio Grande do Norte --- 25.36%
Paraíba --- 21.57%
Pernambuco --- 23.96%
Alagoas --- 20.17%
Sergipe --- 24.44%
Bahia --- 23.66%
Distrito Federal --- 62.61%
Goiás --- 33.61%
Mato Grosso --- 33.96%
Mato Grosso do Sul --- 35.22%
Espírito Santo --- 40.92%
Minas Gerais --- 37.98%
Rio de Janeiro --- 48.63%
São Paulo --- 52.98%
Paraná --- 45.23%
Santa Catarina --- 50.34%
Rio Grande do Sul --- 44.50%



*Car*

BRASIL --- 39.46%

NORTE --- 19.33%
NORDESTE --- 19.81%
CENTRO-OESTE --- 45.12%
SUDESTE --- 47.26%
SUL --- 56.57%

Acre --- 20.94%
Rondônia --- 28.05%
Amazonas --- 19.99%
Roraima --- 29.29%
Amapá --- 24.30%
Pará --- 14.15%
Tocantins --- 26.50%
Maranhão --- 12.47%
Piauí --- 17.88%
Ceará --- 19.01%
Rio Grande do Norte --- 26.37%
Paraíba --- 22.63%
Pernambuco --- 21.62%
Alagoas --- 18.03%
Sergipe --- 22.11%
Bahia --- 20.35%
Distrito Federal --- 60.11%
Goiás --- 43.91%
Mato Grosso --- 37.16%
Mato Grosso do Sul --- 42.41%
Espírito Santo --- 38.44%
Minas Gerais --- 41.20%
Rio de Janeiro --- 35.80%
São Paulo --- 55.56%
Paraná --- 56.41%
Santa Catarina --- 63.96%
Rio Grande do Sul --- 52.63%


----------



## Jonesy55

Huge difference between states with washing machines! What do those without do? Do people use public laundrettes or do they just wash manually in a basin?


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
States, not provinces... 

They wash manually. There's no such thing as public laundrettes in Brazil. There's a thing in Brazil called _tanquinho_, they're much cheaper (and worse), but I'm not sure if they're excluded of the list.

Anyway, we can see clearly the huge gap between states, especially among the more expensive goods.


----------



## Jonesy55

Yuri S Andrade said:


> on top of it, Brazilian taxes target especially consumption, production, labour and not estate or assets.


That seems wrong to me, especially taxing production and employment which should be encouraged. Taxing assets and consumption would be better for growth I think.

We have the same problem here.


----------



## isakres

Most men gave their wifes proper equipement to do their job and fulfill their lonely lifes.


----------



## Jonesy55

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> States, not provinces...


Aggh! I tried to correct it before you saw but obviously wasn't quick enough! :laugh:



Yuri S Andrade said:


> They wash manually. There's no such thing as public laundrettes in Brazil. There's a thing in Brazil called tanquinho, they're much cheaper (and worse), but I'm not sure if they're excluded of the list.
> 
> Anyway, we can see clearly the huge gap between states, especially among the more expensive goods.


We had those (or something similar) in the UK too back in the 60s-80s in fact I think you can still get them now though I don't know who would buy them. Interesting that there is no such thing as a launderette, they were very common here when washing machine ownership was low.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Jonesy55 said:


> That seems wrong to me, especially taxing production and employment which should be encouraged. Taxing assets and consumption would be better for growth I think.
> 
> We have the same problem here.


Yep, and people know it. But it's Brazil, so that's not gonna change. They've been talking about change the labour, the pension, the taxation law system for ages.



Jonesy55 said:


> We had those (or something similar) in the UK too back in the 60s-80s in fact I think you can still get them now though I don't know who would buy them. Interesting that there is no such thing as a launderette, they were very common here when washing machine ownership was low.


Yes, poverty in 2010 Brazil is still very different from poverty in 1960-1980's Britain. People (women, according to Isakres) in Brazil really need washing machine (we don't have those laundries like we see in New York's TV series; that's unthinkable here) and don't buy it because they don't have enough money.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To help you guys to have a better understanding, I can safely say that everybody who got the money in Brazil, will buy all those goods of the list. So the % of ownership tends to be between 90-99%. Any figure lower, indicates lack of means to acquire them. Of course, the person could buy eventually (paying in 12, 24, 36 months), but as the income is too low, he/she has other priorities.


----------



## xrtn2

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> States, not provinces...
> 
> They wash manually. There's no such thing as public laundrettes in Brazil. There's a thing in Brazil called _tanquinho_, they're much cheaper (and worse), but I'm not sure if they're excluded of the list.
> 
> Anyway, we can see clearly the huge gap between states, especially among the more expensive goods.


Tanquinho isnt a wash machine.


----------



## Pradable

seems said:


> are all roads in brazil as good as in those pictures? if they are then they are as good as in any developed country! :cheers:


I don't think, they're all like that... For example, I've been in Santa Catarina a couple of times, and the worse experience i have had it's because of traffic, I love brazil, but it's the first country were there is traffic in the roads(highways), i mean they're probably in good shape, but traffic in high speed roads (intercity) it was a headache for me, distances that should last like 1 hour, it could end in 3 and a half. Anyway, brazil it's such a great country that it totally worth it ahaha :lol:


----------



## Pradable

Skyprince said:


> How about the general road and infrastructure condition in Brazil, Colombia,Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela and Chile ?


 Chilean roads and infraestructure is probably better than 50% than developed countries, they're amazing, but they charge a lot for it that it gets annoying, specially in Santiago... the payment for the roads i think it's quite unfair... anyway... Peru roads are in very bad conditions, and Uruguay has a good infraestructure... never been in colombia and venezuela.


----------



## Motul

Colombia is in the middle of a very ambitious road plan. Currently 4 out of the 5 longest tunnels jn Latin America are being constructed in Colombia as part of that plan. The longest one is 9 km long. This is because Colombian geography is very abrupt and complicated.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

xrtn2 said:


> Tanquinho isnt a wash machine.


Yes, I know. I just don't know the name in English. I tried Google Translate and I got only "six-pack" and "abs"... :lol:

----------------------------------------------------------

About Jonesy's question over iPads in Brazil, I googled it and I found the following figures: in 2010, 100,000 were sold in the country. In the first six-months of 2011, 200,000. 

People should post numbers about the presence of this goods in households around the world, especially in these applicants for development. It would be interesting.


----------



## seattle92

^^

That would ruin the PPP lovers theories.

It's kind of hard to buy IPads with imaginary money :lol:

Sure, people can live with a dollar a day in some countries, but IPads...


----------



## Jonesy55

Yuri S Andrade said:


> People should post numbers about the presence of this goods in households around the world, especially in these applicants for development. It would be interesting.


For some things it can be a little misleading, for example London has by far the lowest rate of car ownership in the UK despite being the richest region because having a car in London is a lot of hassle and public transport can usually get people where they want to go which isn't always the case in smaller towns and cities.


----------



## messicano

seattle92 said:


> ^^
> 
> That would ruin the PPP lovers theories.
> 
> It's kind of hard to buy IPads with imaginary money :lol:
> 
> Sure, people can live with a dollar a day in some countries, but IPads...


economy grow 3.5%

GDP nominal grow 30%:banana:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Acosta

Pradable said:


> Chilean roads and infraestructure is probably better than 50% than developed countries, they're amazing, but they charge a lot for it that it gets annoying, specially in Santiago... the payment for the roads i think it's quite unfair... anyway... Peru roads are in very bad conditions, and Uruguay has a good infraestructure... never been in colombia and venezuela.


I've been in Argentina (Mendoza) and Chile (Santiago) those last days and I found the road network infrastructure very similar (and quite good), but a bit more modern in Chile (probably justified by the excessive number of tolls :shifty.


----------



## Skyprince

Acosta said:


> I've been in Argentina (Mendoza) and Chile (Santiago) those last days and I found the road network infrastructure very similar (and quite good), but a bit more modern in Chile (probably justified by the excessive number of tolls :shifty.


Interesting.. Chile looks like a super-rich country , with nominal per-capita GDP of USD50,000 at least. Santiago looks like Utopian city -everything seems near perfect


----------



## Acosta

Skyprince said:


> Interesting.. Chile looks like a super-rich country , with nominal per-capita GDP of USD50,000 at least. Santiago looks like Utopian city -everything seems near perfect


:crazy:

It's not really like this...


----------



## Motul

Well.. I can show u pics where La Paz, Bolivia looks perfect.. Don't judge a book by it's cover lol. Remember it's SSC, everyone wants to show the best side of their city.


----------



## Acosta

Before getting here (in Santiago), I thought that Chile was easily the most developed country in Latin America. But now I start to think that it can be Argentina dunno.


----------



## Motul

But argentina has worse slums than chile^^


----------



## Acosta

Motul said:


> But argentina has worse slums than chile^^


Hm Chile has policies to have no slums in the near future while Argentina don't, but I think argentinean slums have better infrastructure than the chilean from what I've seen.


----------



## Skyprince

Acosta said:


> :crazy:
> 
> It's not really like this...





Motul said:


> Well.. I can show u pics where La Paz, Bolivia looks perfect.. Don't judge a book by it's cover lol. Remember it's SSC, everyone wants to show the best side of their city.


Hmm but I've seen so many photos of CHile- not only Santiago but Concepcion, Puerto Montt, Antofagasta, Iquique, Vina delMar-Valparaiso, Punta Arenas, Arica u name it, and even googled for "Poverty in Chile" "Slums in Chile" "Commieblocks in Chile" "Poor in Chile", "Rural Chile" " Village Chile" etc I haven't seen any 3rd-worldish images of this country :cheers:

I've seen many 3rd-world images of Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, Brazil , Argentina, Malaysia, Thailand but never for Chile 



Acosta said:


> Before getting here (in Santiago), I thought that Chile was easily the most developed country in Latin America. But now I start to think that it can be Argentina dunno.


Hmm I must go there soon :cheers:


----------



## Acosta

I must clarify I'm not disappointed with Chile. It's a great country and pretty near to get the developed status.

I've seen many terrible slums in the outskirts of Santiago. Yes, they are very tiny (the overall argentine slum is also tiny), but there isn't any kind of infrastructure. I mean:










This pic is mine from _today_.


----------



## Skyprince

^^ Hmm but that doesn't look like a slum at all... Kind of *abandoned* housing


----------



## Motul

That's not too bad.. Some of the stuff in my country is truly scary lol.

For example, this whole city is a big slum:


----------



## gabrielbabb

Pradable said:


> Those pictures are not from Chile, the stop there it doesn't say "ALTO" it says "PARE", just a details.... but when you google poverty in chile, or pobrezaen chile, it shows pictures that are not from chile, and you can tell by a lot of stuff that you never see in chile, from nature to simple things in the streets.


¬¬ I clearly said those pictures are from my grandmother neighbourhood in Mexico City, but the pictures that are shown in google about Mexico are worse than the pictures I showed, and they are not that bad, compared to google images which slums are asian and not mexicn


----------



## megacity30

The GDP and GDP(PPP)-per-capita of many cities in China and India have already crossed the US$ 100 billion and US$ 10000 respectively. It is when you include the poverty in their massive rural areas and burgeoning small towns that their ranking falls abysmally. 

The GDP and GDP(PPP)-per-capita of many cities in China and India already rival cities in developed nations.

A credible, albeit slightly dated, source is data published by PWC (Price-Waterhouse-Cooper) and OECD in 2009, and presented in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP)

*World GDP Rank 25. Shanghai (population 22 million): US$ 233 billion

World GDP Rank 29. Mumbai (population 12.5 million): US$ 209 billion

World GDP Rank 37. Delhi (population 16.7 million): US$ 167 billion

World GDP Rank 38. Beijing (population 16.8 million): US$ 166 billion*

If we were to include their entire urban areas, these figures would be even higher.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

t3ars_culprit said:


> Nations by percentage of urban population living in slums.
> Uruguay No Data
> Chile 0 - 10%
> Colombia 10 - 20%
> Mexico 10 - 20%
> Argentina 20 - 30%
> Brazil 20 - 30%
> Venezuela 30 - 40%
> Peru 30 - 40%
> 
> Source: Wikipedia - Slum


Don't use Wikipedia without checking the source: *11,425,644 Brazilians live in slums (only 6% of the population)*


----------



## Motul

Those numbers don't seem very trustworthy..


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Actually they're the only trustworthy as result of 2010 Census. Feel free to play around: http://www.censo2010.ibge.gov.br/agsn and http://www.sidra.ibge.gov.br/cd/cd2010agsub.asp. There's also the thread in Brazilian forum, 15 pages full of maps, data and discussion: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1470831


----------



## Motul

Yuri S Andrade said:


> ^^
> Actually they're the only trustworthy as result of 2010 Census. Feel free to play around: http://www.censo2010.ibge.gov.br/agsn and http://www.sidra.ibge.gov.br/cd/cd2010agsub.asp


Not yours.. The Wikipedia numbers.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

^^
Sorry.


----------



## Motul

Defense mechanism XD.. I bet alot of people refuted those IBGE figures lol. They hate to see our countries transforming


----------



## oliver999

megacity30 said:


> World GDP Rank 37. Delhi (population 16.7 million): US$ 167 billion
> 
> World GDP Rank 38. Beijing (population 16.8 million): US$ 166 billion[/B]
> 
> .


delhi GDP per capital is even higher than beijing? really questionable!
i doubt india GDP dates .


----------



## Enzo

If Newt Gingrich becomes our next president, we will colonize the moon and make sure it becomes the next developed country in the whole world...


----------



## little universe

megacity30 said:


> The GDP and GDP(PPP)-per-capita of many cities in China and India have already crossed the US$ 100 billion and US$ 10000 respectively. It is when you include the poverty in their massive rural areas and burgeoning small towns that their ranking falls abysmally.
> 
> The GDP and GDP(PPP)-per-capita of many cities in China and India already rival cities in developed nations.
> 
> A credible, albeit slightly dated, source is data published by PWC (Price-Waterhouse-Cooper) and OECD in 2009, and presented in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP)
> 
> *World GDP Rank 25. Shanghai (population 22 million): US$ 233 billion
> 
> World GDP Rank 29. Mumbai (population 12.5 million): US$ 209 billion
> 
> World GDP Rank 37. Delhi (population 16.7 million): US$ 167 billion
> 
> World GDP Rank 38. Beijing (population 16.8 million): US$ 166 billion*
> 
> If we were to include their entire urban areas, these figures would be even higher.


^^
I was actually shocked you cited that source! *That article from wikipedia is not reliable at all! It largely underestimated Chinese City's GDP(PPP) Figures!!! However, the Indian Figures are about right. *

If you have some basic knowledge on economy and willing to do some more research on those figures, *you will find out the figures for indian cities in that table shows were measured by GDP (by PPP), while the Chinese Cities' figures were Measured by GDP (Nominal), You do know that there is a huge difference between GDP (by PPP) and GDP (Nominal), do you? GDP by PPP usually appears much bigger than GDP(Nominal) when it comes to developing countries like China and India in Asia. * If by GDP (Nominal), i'd say Mumbai and Delhi would only had GDP (Nominal) around about US$ 100 billion and US$ 80 billion that year(or even smaller?), way much smaller than Shanghai and Beijing's output that year. The same thing happens to Hong Kong, the table also shows the city's GDP (by PPP) not GDP (Nominal), the city's GDP (Nominal) was US$ 225 billion in 2010 while US$ 326 billion when measured by GDP (by PPP) that year. I haven't confirmed the other cities' figures, probably by different measurments thus not reliable as well. One thing you have to know is that Shanghai's Total GDP (Nominal) had already surpassed Hong Kong's by the end of 2009, everyone in China knows that, cs the media had intensive report about that. And just let you know that Beijing's Total GDP would also outnumber Hong Kong's by the end of this year by economists' prediction!

I am not the person initially trying to compare figures between cities from different countries(China vs India)...you got the wrong person...since you put me through this, i have to make sure those figures are correct and objective. :cheers:

Check out the other wikipedia Source (List of Chinese administrative divisions by GDP(Both Nominal and PPP) in different years), *it clearly shows that the figures you've cited for Mainland Chinese Cities are Nominal GDP figures not GDP by PPP! For that saying the PWC report from UK about Chinese Cities is totally wrong! And it made huge mistakes by comparing world's cities in different measurements! *

*If measured by by PPP, Shanghai and Beijing had US$ 435 billion and US$ 357.6 billion seperately for the year 2010 BTW!*

There's always some deliberate underestimating, prejudice and misleading towards China among western research institutions' Reports merely because China is ruling by a communist party. Sorry no offense.

*Meanwhile, i'm not blaming you, you are one of the innocent victims like many others. you were misleaded by the wrong source from that wrong vicious report!*


----------



## little universe

oliver999 said:


> delhi GDP per capital is even higher than beijing? really questionable!
> i doubt india GDP dates .


^^
Yeah, that's utterly utterly *So Wrong*!

That Report made huge mistakes by comparing cities with different measurements, Indian figures by *GDP(PPP)*, while Chinese Figures by *GDP(nominal)*.



megacity30 said:


> ......
> China's GDP (PPP) per capita is over twice that of India's.
> ......


^^
I've also noticed what you've recognised by yourself and stated a few days ago as reads above ^^

And then i check the wikepedia sources of each of Shanghai and Mumbai's GDP per Capital by PPP in 2010, those give me the figures of *US$ 19,279* and *US$ 9,234*.
That should match with your logic about China's GDP (PPP) per capita is over twice that of India's.....thus China's Financial Capital's GDP (PPP) per capita is also over twice that of India's Financial Capital's. By konwledging of those two cities' similar population size, how could Mumbai's Total GDP (by PPP) possible almost equal Shanghai's?????? What is even more ridiculous is that someone suggesting that Delhi's total GDP (by PPP) outnumbered Beijing's!!!!!! Pls do have some Common Sense!!!!!! :lol:

*If measured by PPP, Shanghai and Beijing had US$ 435 billion and US$ 357.6 billion seperately for the year 2010! (Check out the reliable wikipedia source) Those numbers would be at lease twice bigger than Mumbai's and Delhi's seperately!!!* *If by Nominal GDP, the Gap would be even bigger!* :cheers:

*By that GDP(PPP) Measure, Shanghai probably had already surpassed Osaka, Hong Kong and Seoul, is now holding the Second Place in Asia only after Tokyo!!!*


----------



## oliver999

明白了，呵呵。


----------



## Motul

oliver999 said:


> 明白了，呵呵。


Nijaoma!!


----------



## Master of Disguise

oliver999 said:


> delhi GDP per capital is even higher than beijing? really questionable!
> i doubt india GDP dates .


What do you think about delhi..Visit delhi...surprises awaits you....that $ 167 Billion is the right figure....dont know about beijing though...


----------



## little universe

Master of Disguise said:


> What do you think about delhi..Visit delhi...surprises awaits you....that $ 167 Billion is the right figure....dont know about beijing though...


^^

Jesus, i'm not saying that figure is Wrong!!! Yes, you are right! That figure is correct! But it was measured by GDP per Capital by *Purchasing Power Parity, OR PPP *, mate! 

We are neighbours for thousands of years long before the Western Intervention. I guess we have better understanding of each other and better than the Western World's Understanding of us...I'm not here arguing with any Lovely Indian Friends!

And i really hate the idea of the comparison between China and India which originally came from the Western World! Why not the Rising of China and the Rising of India be the win-win situation for both of us?

Plus China was inspired by ancient wisdoms from India, especially Buddhism! And i do respect Indian Culture from bottom of my heart. :cheers:


----------



## kyenan

I didn't read through the thread, so I am not sure if 'South Korea' was mentioned ever as a candidate for a future developed economy.

But South Korea, really, is very close to the developed status. The GDP/capita of the country is about 23000~24000 USD in 2011, and in terms of the HDI value she is ranked about 15th in the world. 

South Korea has three problems to work out to be a developed country. 

First, her economy is still heavily relying on manufacturing sector. In general, the wealth of a developed country is mostly, like 70% or more, produced in service sector. But in S. Korea, that is not the case. 

South Korea needs to develop service industry further. The country's productivity in manufacturing is world-class, but never in the service sector.

Secondly, the country needs to eastablish a better social welfare system. Almost every sector of public welfare service of South Korea, including child care, public schooling, public high level education, medical insurance, welfare for the aged, welfare for the unemployed, public housing, and so on, require much heavire investment. 

Thirdly, the country needs to be more creative and challenging in R&D sector. World-renowned brands like Samsung, LG, Hyundai, and Posco, all have quite leading technologies, but never as innovative as Ford, GE, du Pont, Kodak, MS, Apple, Daimler Benz, Bosch, or Vestas. The country as a whole needs to be changed from a fast-follower to a leader. S. Korea is trying, but needs to try more in a more creative way. 

By the time when all these problems are solved, the country will be at a ' developed' status.


----------



## Motul

If South Korea isn't considered developed already, the rest has atleast 30 more years to go


----------



## CarltonHill

@ kyenan:

South Korea is a developed country already. And it has a higher HDI than Denmark, Belgium, France, Finland and UK!


----------



## Motul

Wow.. That's incredible^^


----------



## messicano

isakres said:


> mmhh Chile ranks quite good in HDI and even in GINI. Just the GDP Per Capita PPP target is about to be accomplished.
> 
> Argentina ranks good in HDI and close to CHile in GDP Per Capita. Im not sure about GINI.


chile ranks good in GINI?:nuts:


----------



## isakres

mmmhh you are right I think Argentina ranks better than Chile in GINI.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

megacity30 said:


> International Monetary Fund (www.imf.org)
> 
> 40 Poland (0.813, 20,136)
> 
> 41 Portugal (0.809, 23,204)
> 
> 42 Bahrain (0.806, 27,368)


Concerning the countries in your list not in the IMF list, these are in 3 groups.

1) Small countries of Europe omitted by IMF. 
Namely Monaco, San Marino, Liechtenstein and Andorra
2) Oil exporters not recognized as developed by IMF
Namely United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain and Brunei
3) East European country Poland.

Accordingly inquiries for you:
1) Demonstrate why Poland is developed and Hungary and Horvatia are not.
2) What are the per capita GDP and human development index of Vatican?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

@megacity30 - could you please add *Taiwan* on that list?

*HDI 0.882

GDP per capita USD 37,931*

I got the HDI figure from table at the bottom of this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index


----------



## megacity30

chornedsnorkack said:


> Concerning the countries in your list not in the IMF list, these are in 3 groups.
> 
> 1) Small countries of Europe omitted by IMF.
> Namely Monaco, San Marino, Liechtenstein and Andorra
> 2) Oil exporters not recognized as developed by IMF
> Namely United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Bahrain and Brunei
> 3) East European country Poland.
> 
> Accordingly inquiries for you:
> 1) Demonstrate why Poland is developed and Hungary and Horvatia are not.
> 2) What are the per capita GDP and human development index of Vatican?


Nice inputs, chornedsnorkack. :cheers:

(a) not in the IMF list: 
1) yes, those small wealthy European countries were omitted in the IMF list. That's why I also referred to the UN Development report for the year 2011 reports and the New World Encyclopedia for the Year 2007 reports.
2) Please provide the IMF link that says the wealthy oil-exporting nations are not developed. Although their traditional main-stay has been petrochemicals, they have all forayed into other industries, services and tourism in a big way, investment-wise.
3) hno: Poland is included. Which report are you referring to? Please refer to the criteria: GDP(PPP)-per-capita exceeding US$ 20000 and GINI-coefficient-adjusted HDI greater than 0.8.

(b)
1) :shocked: I'm sorry what is Horvatia?! 
And Hungary just missed the minimum GDP(PPP)-per-capita requirement of US$ 20,000.
2) Vatican City is a city-state ruled by the bishop of Rome. It's not included in these publications as a country.


----------



## isakres

Horvatia- Croatia


----------



## megacity30

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> @megacity30 - could you please add *Taiwan* on that list?
> 
> *HDI 0.882*
> 
> *GDP per capita USD 37,931*
> 
> I got the HDI figure from table at the bottom of this site:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index


Your post is amazingly insightful. :applause:

In the 2011 UN Development Report (linked below), Taiwan has been included in China with the note 

"Includes Taiwan Province of China and excludes Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and Macao Special Administrative Region"​ 
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Tables.pdf 

The island of Taiwan forms over 99% of the _de facto_ current territory of the Republic of China (ROC) following the Chinese Civil War in 1950. Due to this reason and the disputed political status of Republic of China in the United Nations, they have included it.

And that brings up a very valid point: in that case, why isn't Macau included in the report then?

Also, is Taiwan an independent country? If we all believe it is, I will include it in the list.


----------



## The Cake On BBQ

HDI list is the most ridiculous list in the world. Anyone who takes it seriously should not be taken seriously.


----------



## megacity30

The Cake On BBQ said:


> HDI list is the most ridiculous list in the world. Anyone who takes it seriously should not be taken seriously.


Kindly elaborate further.


----------



## megacity30

*There are 41 High-level Developing Countries in the world*

The following is a list of the 41 high-level developing countries in the world today, based on high GDP(PPP)-per-capita-income (greater than US$ 10000), low income inequality and high human development (inequality-adjusted HDI greater than 0.7) in 2011.

Hungary, Lithuania, Chile, and Latvia are nearly developed countries because their GINI-coefficient-adjusted HDI have already exceeded 0.8, and their GDP(PPP)-per-capita are near US$ 20,000.

Argentina and Croatia are also close to becoming developed countries.

The remaining countries in this list are all emerging developed countries.

This list ranks the high-level developing countries based on the calculations and references discussed earlier.


*43. [1] Hungary (0.816, 19,647)

44. [2] Lithuania (0.810, 18,769)

45. [3] Chile (0.805, 16,171)

46. [4] Latvia (0.805, 15,448)

47. [5] Argentina (0.797, 17,376)

48. [6] Croatia (0.796, 18,338)

49. [7] Barbados (0.793, 23,624)

50. [8] Uruguay (0.783, 15,469)

51. [9] Romania (0.781, 12,357)

52. [10] Seychelles (0.773, 24,724)

53. [11] Bahamas (0.771, 30,961)

54. [12] Bulgaria (0.771, 13,562)

55. [13] Montenegro (0.771, 11,228)

56. [14] Saudi Arabia (0.770, 24,056)

57. [15] Mexico (0.770, 15,121)

58. [16] Panama (0.768, 13,595)

59. [17] Serbia (0.766, 10,661)

60. [18] Antigua and Barbuda (0.764, 22,119)

61. [19] Malaysia (0.761, 15,578)

62. [20] Kuwait (0.760, 40,740)

63. [21] Trinidad and Tobago (0.760, 20,301)

64. [22] Libya (0.760, 16,837)

65. [23] Belarus (0.756, 14,948)

66. [24] Russia (0.755, 16,687)

67. [25] Grenada (0.748, 13,353)

68. [26] Kazakhstan (0.745, 13,059)

69. [27] Costa Rica (0.744, 11,562)

70. [28] Lebanon (0.739, 15,596)

71. [29] Saint Kitts and Nevis (0.735, 16,457)

72. [30] Venezuela (0.735, 12,407)

73. [31] Mauritius (0.728, 15,015)

74. [32] Macedonia (0.728, 10,369)

75. [33] Peru (0.725, 10,000)

76. [34] Dominica (0.724, 13,664)

77. [35] Saint Lucia (0.723, 12,954)

78. [36] Brazil (0.718, 11,845)

79. [37] Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (0.717, 11,731)

80. [38] Colombia (0.710, 10,155)

81. [39] Iran (0.707, 12,258)

82. [40] Oman (0.705, 26,272)

83. [41] Azerbaijan (0.700, 10,216) *

Next, I'll ennumerate the upper-middle, middle, and lower-middle developing countries.

And finally, I'll ennumerate the under-developed countries.


----------



## The Cake On BBQ

^^Where is Turkey?


megacity30 said:


> Kindly elaborate further.


Personal freedoms and human rights are not included to HDI list. Otherwise Saudi Arabia wouldnt be so high in the list imo.


----------



## Motul

For what year is that GDP PPP per capita info from?


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

megacity30 said:


> Your post is amazingly insightful. :applause:
> 
> In the 2011 UN Development Report (linked below), Taiwan has been included in China with the note
> 
> "Includes Taiwan Province of China and excludes Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and Macao Special Administrative Region"​
> http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Tables.pdf
> 
> The island of Taiwan forms over 99% of the _de facto_ current territory of the Republic of China (ROC) following the Chinese Civil War in 1950. Due to this reason and the disputed political status of Republic of China in the United Nations, they have included it.
> 
> And that brings up a very valid point: in that case, why isn't Macau included in the report then?
> 
> Also, is Taiwan an independent country? If we all believe it is, I will include it in the list.


It is de facto independent, but let's say it's atleast is a developed territory?


----------



## megacity30

The Cake On BBQ said:


> ^^Where is Turkey?
> 
> Personal freedoms and human rights are not included to HDI list. Otherwise Saudi Arabia wouldnt be so high in the list imo.


Turkey narrowly missed the high-level developing countries' list with a *GINI-coefficient-adjusted* *HDI* *of 0.699*!

The UN has implemented a new methodology to calculate HDI in its recent human development report:-

New methodology for 2011 data onwards, in its 2010 Human Development Report the UNDP began using a new method of calculating the HDI. 
The following three indices are used:


1. Life Expectancy Index (LEI)










2. Education Index (EI)










2.1 Mean Years of Schooling Index (MYSI)







[3]


2.2 Expected Years of Schooling Index (EYSI)







[4]



3. Income Index (II)










Finally, the HDI is the geometric mean of the previous three normalized indices:










LE: Life expectancy at birth

MYS: Mean years of schooling (Years that a 25-year-old person or older has spent in schools)

EYS: Expected years of schooling (Years that a 5-year-old child will spend with his education in his whole life)

GNIpc: Gross national income at purchasing power parity per capita


*Perhaps in the next reports, we would see a mathematical quantification of tertiary indices like personal freedom, economic diversity etc.*


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Precisely where is that HDI adjusted for inequality?


----------



## Jonesy55

megacity30 said:


> MYS: Mean years of schooling (Years that a 25-year-old person or older has spent in schools)


I think even if you accept the methodology of the HDI which is obviously subjective, some of the raw data is dubious.

I was looking at the data to work out why the UK had fallen quite a lot under the new methodology, and it basically came down to this one indicator. 

It gives a figure of 9.3 years for the UK which is much lower than most other countries in the top 30-40.

The lowest legal school-leaving age was raised to 15 in 1947 and 16 in 1972 so anybody born after 1932 will have at least 10 years education and anybody born after 1956 will have at least 11 as schooling starts at 5.

Of course the majority don't leave at the minimum age anyway and many are still in education at 22, 23 or beyond.

So how they can get an *average* that is lower than even the legal minimum of everybody except those people over 80 years old is bizarre.

If that one figure I checked out is so dubious probably many others are too.


----------



## Motul

Some people think HDI is perfect and blindly trustworthy.. In reality it's far from that, it needs alot more variables to be truly comprehensive.


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Jonesy55 said:


> I think even if you accept the methodology of the HDI which is obviously subjective, some of the raw data is dubious.
> 
> I was looking at the data to work out why the UK had fallen quite a lot under the new methodology, and it basically came down to this one indicator.
> 
> It gives a figure of 9.3 years for the UK which is much lower than most other countries in the top 30-40.
> 
> The lowest legal school-leaving age was raised to 15 in 1947 and 16 in 1972 so anybody born after 1932 will have at least 10 years education and anybody born after 1956 will have at least 11 as schooling starts at 5.
> 
> Of course the majority don't leave at the minimum age anyway and many are still in education at 22, 23 or beyond.
> 
> So how they can get an *average* that is lower than even the legal minimum of everybody except those people over 80 years old is bizarre.
> 
> If that one figure I checked out is so dubious probably many others are too.


People in Brazilian forum made also a very valid argument over the income part of it. UN uses the highest GDP per capita as the parameter which leads to great distortions as Luxembourg has unreal "figures", pushing the bar way over the top. 

For example, when it comes to health, there's no huge differences between countries, as most of the countries are between (70-85 years break). On the economics, there's this thing making mid-countries to look worse than they really are. 

Brazil, which is not doing so good on health (traffic deaths, homicides) and education (only for the last 15 years, everybody started to study a lot, although the quality level plunged), but it's doing pretty good on income, has it's numbers pushed way down as it has on economics its strenght.


----------



## Aaronj09

Jonesy55 said:


> I think even if you accept the methodology of the HDI which is obviously subjective, some of the raw data is dubious.
> 
> I was looking at the data to work out why the UK had fallen quite a lot under the new methodology, and it basically came down to this one indicator.
> 
> It gives a figure of 9.3 years for the UK which is much lower than most other countries in the top 30-40.
> 
> The lowest legal school-leaving age was raised to 15 in 1947 and 16 in 1972 so anybody born after 1932 will have at least 10 years education and anybody born after 1956 will have at least 11 as schooling starts at 5.
> 
> Of course the majority don't leave at the minimum age anyway and many are still in education at 22, 23 or beyond.
> 
> So how they can get an *average* that is lower than even the legal minimum of everybody except those people over 80 years old is bizarre.
> 
> If that one figure I checked out is so dubious probably many others are too.


GDP per capita is also largely influenced by one thing.. strength of currencies.


----------



## isakres

How come Turkey has this huge drop when considering Adjusted HDI?

Is it for education / Health in the eastern states?


----------



## Restless

patchay said:


> ^^ Looks like Malaysian issues are very hot topic wherever I go (international or regional threads). I'm getting tired of explaining how much sacrifice Malaysian Chinese have given to our home country Malaysia despite all the other things, and at the same time we accepted the rights of the Malays and helped the minority Indians and other races. What I see today is that the politicians must stop using the racial card for gaining communal votes.
> 
> Today, every citizen/community have to accept each other and only by doing so can our nation progress and move forward. This is not just for Malaysia, but *a universal principle for ALL NATIONS*.
> 
> Coincidentally, I was just reading that Malaysia has become a major investor in London real estate, not just London but other cities to as far as Miami and Sao Paulo besides traditional markets closer to home like Australia and ASEAN.
> 
> I believe *most fast-developing Asian countries are entering a Golden Era*, and will be led by China, India and Indonesia. There is no doubt that many many millions from both urban and rural areas are becoming much more prosperous with the increase in GDP, etc. For example, people rush to buy real estate (driving the boom in skyscrapers).
> 
> But the fact is *it doesn't mean anything if we do not pursue a MINDSET change, a fundamental change* in so many things... in mutual respect amongst different communities, better quality of living, safety levels and reducing the gap of urban-rural, better representation, democracy and social justice system, better governance and productivity and economic advancement not by physical means but by the "software" means such as innovation, R&D, talent management, civic-consciousness, etc.
> 
> Malaysia is currently undergoing a so-called "reform" stage, but with 8 more years to the national dateline of 2020, I'm frankly not sure whether we can achieve the *true meaning* of a high-income nation as outlined in the national agenda. :cheers:


And for every citizen/community to accept each other, Malaysia has to implement a true meritocracy, otherwise the races will always resent the privileges afforded to some, but not others.

And Malaysia is stuck in a middle-income trap, as indicated by the abysmal proportion of GDP spent on R&D.

I think that is because talented businessman and R&D scientists/engineers are disproportionately ethnic minorities in Malaysia. And intelligent people will not stand to be treated as a 2nd class citizens with lesser political and economic rights.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> No province of China is as rich as Malaysia.
> 2010 GDP per capita:
> Malaysia - 8423
> 
> Jiangsu - 7806
> Zhejiang - 7639
> 
> Only the 3 cities are richer:
> 
> Shanghai - 11238
> Beijing - 11218
> Tianjin - 10783
> 
> How are the per capita GDP of the states of Malaysia?


I was using PPP figures which translate into comparable living standards


----------



## Jay

^huh?


----------



## patchay

Restless said:


> And for every citizen/community to accept each other, Malaysia has to implement a true meritocracy, otherwise the races will always resent the privileges afforded to some, but not others.
> 
> And Malaysia is stuck in a middle-income trap, as indicated by the abysmal proportion of GDP spent on R&D.
> 
> I think that is because talented businessman or R&D scientists/engineers are disproportionately ethnic minorities in Malaysia. And intelligent people will not stand to be treated as a 2nd class citizens with lesser political and economic rights.


What you say is true (especially as a foreigner point of view)... but I'm optimistic THINGS will change gradually... as *people become more vocal, "smarter" and more "just" minded*, I think whichever Government-would-be will be highly pressured to reform. 

As a result, there have been some reforms over the last few months, but even ME as a young professional from the minority race believe that *more needs to be done* before we talk about "equality". We need to achieve "equittable treatment" against one another first. 

We need to thank the new era social media platform like Facebook, Twitter and Blogger to make that CHANGE faster. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Restless

Skyprince said:


> Emm.. because Malaysia is very suburbia-oriented country. It looks like USA- the downtown Kuala Lumpur seems to be under-funded and not very functional but suburbs have really good infrastructure ( per-capita ). If u stay with me in Shah Alam city ( the suburbia ) u'd immediately say ur living in a highly developed country.
> 
> Of course, u cannot compare the infrastructure in Shanghai , Beijing & Shenzhen to KL since their population is multiple times bigger ! ( in the city area ) . The comparable Chinese cities to KL are Lanzhou, Harbin or Zhengzhou .
> 
> China is more closer to Japanese-way in developing their cities- more cencentrated & densed neighborhoods with nicely-organized and highly-functional downtowns.


You do realise that Chinese cities have been developing along car centric suburban lines in the past 5-10 years? And like KL, they now suffer from horrendous traffic jams, so the response has been massive investments in public transport.


----------



## Restless

patchay said:


> What you say is true (especially as a foreigner point of view)... but I'm optimistic THINGS will change gradually... as *people become more vocal, "smarter" and more "just" minded*, I think whichever Government-would-be will be highly pressured to reform.
> 
> As a result, there has been some reforms over the last few months, but *more needs to be* done before we talk about "equality". We need to achieve "equittable treatment" against one another first.
> 
> We need to thank the new era social media platform like Facebook, Twitter and Blogger to make that CHANGE faster. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Malaysia doesn't have time to just change gradually.

Malaysia is competing against every other nation in the world, and the world will pass by Malaysia if they don't relentlessly reform and improve.


----------



## Restless

Jay said:


> ^huh?


PPP = Purchasing Power Parity 

It corrects for the difference in the cost of goods/services between countries, and also for the exchange rate.

The resultant figure gives you the best comparison in terms of living standards.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> I was using PPP figures which translate into comparable living standards


Expressly giving PPP ratio for 2010:
China 192%
Malaysia 175%


----------



## Restless

patchay said:


> ^^ I think China and Malaysia is not really a good comparison. :lol:
> 
> Then again, it is always a relative thing... very subjective to say which city or which country is better.
> 
> To me big cities like Shanghai and Beijing (including comparable suburbia) are so much better in terms of infrstructure because as an *emerging global power*, the money supply there is so huge that they can build anything they like. Then again, the population is huge and just a comfortable percentage of middle class ratio is enough to beat the entire purchasing power in Malaysia.
> 
> Big money create more big money, if all other factors are constant, ceteris paribus.
> 
> 
> *(I think every nation has its own pace... but I like the fact that Malaysia, and together with other ASEAN nations are now a major trading partner with China. Last year, Malaysia and China total trade value alone has hit US$90 billion, a record! And the same story goes to other ASEAN nations.)*


Then why not compare with neighbouring Singapore, which you can see has zoomed ahead of Malaysia since the divorce 50years ago.


----------



## patchay

Restless said:


> Malaysia doesn't have time to just change gradually.
> 
> Malaysia is competing against every other nation in the world, and the world will pass by Malaysia if they don't relentlessly reform and improve.


Well in a democracy, it all depends on the "will" of the majority - who so happens to be the conservatives. As much as I want more "change" via *good policy reforms* to happen tomorrow, but other people may have other opinions which need to be respected also. 

I know we are running against time and nobody will wait for us, but more importantly does the mass people acknowledged the current disparity and be ready for this "change"? I would ignorantly presumed many urbanites are ready. 

When that happens nationwide, I foresee we will be high income sooner than later. :lol:





Restless said:


> Then why not compare with neighbouring Singapore, which you can see has zoomed ahead of Malaysia since the divorce 50years ago.


Singapore has almost reached the "finishing line" in the race of becoming a high-income, developed, well managed nation. 

I think for Malaysia, stamina is needed to "finish the race". :lol:


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Expressly giving PPP ratio for 2010:
> China 192%
> Malaysia 175%


Here are the complete figures for 2011

*Greater Kuala Lumpur 2011*
GDP Per capita (PPP) = $22119 ($12400 x 1.78)
Population 7.2million

*Beijing 2011est*
GDP Per capita (PPP) = $23261 ($12115 x 1.92)
Population 19.7million

*Shanghai 2011est*
GDP Per capita (PPP) = $23303 ($12137 x 1.92)
Population 23.1million

*Guangzhou 2011est*
GDP Per capita (PPP) = $25774 ($13424 x 1.92)
Population 12.7million

*Shenzhen 2011est*
GDP Per capita (PPP) = $24317 ($12665 x 1.92)
Population 10.4million

NB. There are a shedload more Chinese cities that are around the same level of wealth, and quite a few of them are the same size as Kuala Lumpur.


----------



## Restless

patchay said:


> Well in a democracy, it all depends on the "will" of the majority - who so happens to be the conservatives. As much as I want more "change" via *good policy reforms* to happen tomorrow, but other people may have other opinions which need to be respected also.
> 
> I know we are running against time and nobody will wait for us, but more importantly does the mass people acknowledged the current disparity and be ready for this "change"? I would ignorantly presumed many urbanites are ready.
> 
> When that happens nationwide, I foresee we will be high income sooner than later. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Singapore has almost reached the "finishing line" in the race of becoming a high-income, developed, well managed nation.
> 
> I think for Malaysia, stamina is needed to "finish the race". :lol:


Singapore has passed the finishing line long ago, and is still trying to race ahead.

See the list below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


----------



## patchay

Restless said:


> Singapore has passed the finishing line long ago, and is still trying to race ahead.
> 
> See the list below
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita


Of course I know that, but as I said to be a developed nation, it is not just about MONEY.

I'm sure you know the other things.

Btw I hope the UK, the States, Japan and China will provide us Moral Support. :lol: :lol:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Then why not compare with neighbouring Singapore, which you can see has zoomed ahead of Malaysia since the divorce 50years ago.


Good point.

Singapore always was the urban centre for Malaya, and therefore richer, but not by such huge margin.

1960: 395/299 - 132%
1965: 516/333 - 155%
1970: 925/392 - 236%
1975: 2557/803 - 318%
1980: 4756/1812 - 262%
1985: 6755/2026 - 333%
1990: 12387/2432 - 509%
1995: 23718/4358 - 544%
2000: 22791/4030 - 566%
2005: 28498/5213 - 547%
2010: 43117/8423 - 512%


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Good point.
> 
> Singapore always was the urban centre for Malaya, and therefore richer, but not by such huge margin.
> 
> 1960: 395/299 - 132%
> 1965: 516/333 - 155%
> 1970: 925/392 - 236%
> 1975: 2557/803 - 318%
> 1980: 4756/1812 - 262%
> 1985: 6755/2026 - 333%
> 1990: 12387/2432 - 509%
> 1995: 23718/4358 - 544%
> 2000: 22791/4030 - 566%
> 2005: 28498/5213 - 547%
> 2010: 43117/8423 - 512%


So you can see that by 1975, Mahathir must have been aware of how Malaysia had fallen behind.
And then by 1990, how Malaysia had fallen even further back.

So why has Singapore succeeded, whilst Malaysia is still regarded as a developing country by the rest of the world?


----------



## XNeo

Restless said:


> Then why not compare with neighbouring Singapore, which you can see has zoomed ahead of Malaysia since the divorce 50years ago.


even 50 years ago Malaysia is not comparable to Spore :colgate:...Spore already ahead from Malaysia.
they have no prob to separate from malasia.


----------



## Restless

patchay said:


> Of course I know that, but as I said to be a developed nation, it is not just about MONEY.
> 
> I'm sure you know the other things.
> 
> Btw I hope the UK, the States, Japan and China will provide us Moral Support. :lol: :lol:


I think the rest of the world would like nothing better than to see a prosperous and stable Malaysia where racial differences were erased.

It would demonstrate to the world that Indians, Chinese and Muslim can live together side-by-side.

And I think it all begins with the education system, as every child must be taught to believe in One Malaysia.

This is a fundamental part of nation building.


----------



## Restless

XNeo said:


> 50 years ago Spore already ahead from Malaysia.
> they have no prob to separate from malasia.


I guess you haven't seen the video of Lee Kuan Yew crying on TV, when he announced to the nation that Singapore had been ejected from the Federation of Malaya.


----------



## XNeo

Restless said:


> I guess you haven't seen the video of Lee Kuan Yew crying on TV, when he announced to the nation that Singapore had been ejected from the Federation of Malaya.


then you have to find why, from another side as well.


----------



## patchay

Restless said:


> I think the rest of the world would like nothing better than to see a prosperous and stable Malaysia where racial differences were erased.
> 
> It would demonstrate to the world that Indians, Chinese and Muslim can live together side-by-side.
> 
> And I think it all begins with the education system, as every child must be taught to believe in One Malaysia.
> 
> This is a fundamental part of nation building.


Agreed. And surprisingly you seem to know alot. :lol:

Be our guest if ya coming over to KL. 

Not too long ago, LKY mentioned again about the vision he sees for both nations. The world and I admire him for his courage that changed Singapore.

My question now is can Singapore help change the whole Southeast Asia? (particularly Myanmar/Burma)


----------



## Restless

patchay said:


> Agreed. And surprisingly you seem to know alot. :lol:
> 
> Be our guest if ya coming over to KL.
> 
> Not too long ago, LKY mentioned again about the vision he sees for both nations. The world and I admire him for his courage that changed Singapore.
> 
> My question now is can Singapore help change the whole Southeast Asia? (particularly Myanmar/Burma)


I think Singapore is much more concerned with changing Malaysia and Indonesia, so that they become more secular and tolerant.


----------



## Brown_Eastern

Restless said:


> Here are the complete figures for 2011
> 
> *Greater Kuala Lumpur 2011*
> GDP Per capita (PPP) = $22119 ($12400 x 1.78)
> Population 7.2million
> 
> *Beijing 2011est*
> GDP Per capita (PPP) = $23261 ($12115 x 1.92)
> Population 19.7million
> 
> *Shanghai 2011est*
> GDP Per capita (PPP) = $23303 ($12137 x 1.92)
> Population 23.1million
> 
> *Guangzhou 2011est*
> GDP Per capita (PPP) = $25774 ($13424 x 1.92)
> Population 12.7million
> 
> *Shenzhen 2011est*
> GDP Per capita (PPP) = $24317 ($12665 x 1.92)
> Population 10.4million
> 
> NB. There are a shedload more Chinese cities that are around the same level of wealth, and quite a few of them are the same size as Kuala Lumpur.


Do you have the latest data for the poorest region/state in China and Malaysia for nominal and ppp? I think I saw data for Brazil poorest region in gdp per capita nominal in this thread which is richer than Malaysian poorest state. Somehow I believe that generally the poorest city/region in Latam is better than their counterpart in Asia.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Chinese province level divisions as of 2010:
Richer end:
Cities:
Shanghai - 11238
Beijing - 11218
Tianjin - 10783
regions:
Jiangsu province - 7806
Zhejiang province - 7639
Inner Mongolian autonomous region - 6994
Guangdong province - 6608
Liaoning province - 6257
Shandong province - 6072
Country average - 4382
Poorer end:
Anhui province - 3086
Guangxi autonomous region - 2987
Tibet autonomous region - 2558
Gansu province - 2380
Yunnan province - 2327
Guizhou province - 1938
Richer prefecture level divisions:
Mining areas:
Ordos city - 20402
Alxa league - 19656
Karamay city - 17931
Dongying city - 17195
Daqing city - 15300
Baotou city - 13803
(Suzhou etc.)
Jiayuguan city - 12292
Haixi prefecture - 11549
Wuhai - 10902
Hohhot - 9678
Xilin Gol league - 8528
Yulin - 7746
Yangtze delta:
Suzhou - 13744
Wuxi - 13615
Ningbo - 13321
Hangzhou - 12806 
(Shenzhen etc.)
(Shanghai - 11238)
Jiaxing - 9976
Changzhou - 9946
Zhoushan - 9835
Nanjing - 9642
Zhenjiang - 9496
Zhaoxing - 9420
(Jiangsu average - 7806)
(Zhejiang average - 7639)
Huzhou - 7408
Jinhua - 6652
Taizhou - 6171
Guangdong:
Shenzhen - 12430
Guangzhou - 11727
Foshan - 10590
Zhuhai - 10051
Zhongshan - 8000
Dongguan - 7237
Elsewhere:
Weihai - 10220
Dalian - 10217
Panjin - 9894
Changsha - 9818
Qingdao - 9722
Zibo - 9363
Shenyang - 9211
Yantai - 9196


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

*GDP per capita PPP of China's administrative regions (2010)

Int dollars

Shanghai	19,279
Beijing	19,246
Tianjin	18,498
Jiangsu	13,391
Zhejiang	13,105
Inner Mongolia	11,999
Guangdong	11,337
Liaoning	10,734
Shandong	10,417
Fujian	10	10,143
Jilin	11	8,008	
Hebei	12	7,265
Hubei	13	7,072
Chongqing	6,993	
Shaanxi	6,876	
Heilongjiang	6,862	
Ningxia	6,807
Shanxi	6,661
Xinjiang	6,344	
Hunan	6,264
Henan	6,195	
Qinghai	6,111	
Hainan	6,039	
Jiangxi	5,386	
Sichuan	5,368
Anhui 5,293	
Guangxi	5,124
Tibet 4,389	
Gansu	4,083	
Yunnan	3,992	
Guizhou	3,325*


----------



## Name user 1

Restless said:


> My two thoughts:
> Yet women from China (who are on average much poorer than the UAE) have higher workforce participation than even the progressive Scandinavian countries.
> 
> Why is that?


this is communism legacy this is the same more less in all post-communist societies, because in communism all people are equal


----------



## Restless

Name user 1 said:


> this is communism legacy this is the same more less in all post-communist societies, because in communism all people are equal


Correct.

After the revolution, they really did try to create an equal society for all.

But the lesson is that you can also get there through the Scandinavian route without a revolution.


----------



## Name user 1

Restless said:


> Correct.
> 
> After the revolution, they really did try to create an equal society for all.
> 
> But the lesson is that you can also get there through the Scandinavian route without a revolution.


I agree with you and with the Scandinavian route employs much higher productivity


----------



## Skyprince

Restless said:


> So you can see that by 1975, Mahathir must have been aware of how Malaysia had fallen behind.
> And then by 1990, how Malaysia had fallen even further back.
> 
> So why has Singapore succeeded, whilst Malaysia is still regarded as a developing country by the rest of the world?


Singapore is a city-state, and overall had 3 times bigger per-capita GDP than Malaysia in 1965 ( based on another stat not the one given by one of our forujmers here ) . Also, there is significant ethnic Chinese ( up to 80% ) of Singapore's population, who are really into business and trade. 

Malaysia is country with huge landmass- and upon independence there were huge % of people who lived in rural areas. It is more challenging to provide infrastructure in rural area and vast suburbs with low population density unlike for a city-state sized roughly 30 X 20 km. Most of Malays & Indians used to be in farming & service sector, unlike the more business-oriented Chinese .

The history , geography & demography of Malaysia & Singapore are totally different , both are not good comparison IMO.

I know where ur standing, and yes your idea is noble, u prefer open meritocracy, but IMO that wouldn't work for Malaysia.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Some more patterns to pick:

Look at Jiangsu. Besides the mines, the two richest prefecture level cities in China are Suzhou and Wuxi - contiguous, both above 13 600.

The combined population of these 2 is 16,8 millions. And as noted, they have over 20% higher per capita GDP than the adjoining Shanghai.

The other 3 richer prefecture level cities of Jiangsu are Changzhou, Zhenjiang and Nanjing - all 3 between 9400 and 10 000.

And all 3 are contiguous to each other and Suzhou and Wuxi - these 5 making up the whole south bank of Yangtze.

None of the 8 prefecture-level cities of Jiangsu is has as much as 6000 - not even Nantong, Taizhou or Yangzhou right across Yangtze!


----------



## Restless

Skyprince said:


> Singapore is a city-state, and overall had 3 times bigger per-capita GDP than Malaysia in 1965 ( based on another stat not the one given by one of our forujmers here ) . Also, there is significant ethnic Chinese ( up to 80% ) of Singapore's population, who are really into business and trade.
> 
> Malaysia is country with huge landmass- and upon independence there were huge % of people who lived in rural areas. It is more challenging to provide infrastructure in rural area and vast suburbs with low population density unlike for a city-state sized roughly 30 X 20 km. Most of Malays & Indians used to be in farming & service sector, unlike the more business-oriented Chinese .
> 
> The history , geography & demography of Malaysia & Singapore are totally different , both are not good comparison IMO.
> 
> I know where ur standing, and yes your idea is noble, u prefer open meritocracy, but IMO that wouldn't work for Malaysia.


Then why not compare against one of the Chinese provinces like Guangdong, which is full of ethnic minorities and which was way poorer and undeveloped back in 1960.

You do realise that if an open meritocracy doesn't work for Malaysia, then it is unlikely Malaysia will ever become a rich developed nation.


----------



## jlshyang

Malaysia really is a complicated and unique country due to its heterogeneous composition.

There was just too much catching up to do for the ethnic majority in those days to warrant the implementation of the 'preferential treatment' economic policy. However, there were flaws in the implementation of the policy by ruling politicians and civil servants and after 50 years it was deemed as a right which shall continue perpetually by the ethnic majority. Any talks to modify the policy will instantly cause an uproar. 

The various ethnicity in Malaysia has grown to become very race conscious due to the sensitivities related to the economic policy. As a result, the Malaysian society is fractured and divided along racial lines. As of today, I do not think that Malaysia can do away with meritocracy without risking a race riot and/or heightened racial tensions. The ethnic Chinese in Malaysia is not integrated into the local society like other SEA countries simply because this was one of the guarantees given to the Chinese during independence. Ethnic Chinese in other SEA countries were 'forced' to integrate by the ruling governments. 

Therefore, the ethnic Chinese have kept its distinct identity and they have built their own schools. It is even more difficult for the Chinese to integrate today as the education standards in privately-funded Chinese schools have surpassed the education standards in national schools. Islamisation in South East Asia since the 1990s have also seaped into the national school identity shunning the ethnic minorities. Preferential treatment is also practiced in national schools. 

Malaysia is caught in the middle-trap income and have great difficulty retaining talent because the working environment is simply not suited for competitive and talented individuals especially those of the ethnic minority and countries like Singapore has long pitched for Malaysian talents. Singaporean universities are known to offer courses, scholarships and study loans to deserving students who fail to get a place in Malaysian universities due to their ethnicity. Other Malaysian talents prefer to work in developed countries due to its developed infrastructures and the R&D investments in the various sectors. 

Malaysia has much to lose if it refuses to transform and make key changes to its policies.


----------



## XNeo

jlshyang said:


> Malaysia really is a complicated and unique country due to its heterogeneous composition.
> 
> There was just too much catching up to do for the ethnic majority in those days to warrant the implementation of the 'preferential treatment' economic policy. However, there were flaws in the implementation of the policy by ruling politicians and civil servants and after 50 years it was deemed as a right which shall continue perpetually by the ethnic majority. Any talks to modify the policy will instantly cause an uproar.
> 
> The various ethnicity in Malaysia has grown to become very race conscious due to the sensitivities related to the economic policy. As a result, the Malaysian society is fractured and divided along racial lines. As of today, I do not think that Malaysia can do away with meritocracy without risking a race riot and/or heightened racial tensions. The ethnic Chinese in Malaysia is not integrated into the local society like other SEA countries simply because this was one of the guarantees given to the Chinese during independence. Ethnic Chinese in other SEA countries were 'forced' to integrate by the ruling governments.
> 
> Therefore, the ethnic Chinese have kept its distinct identity and they have built their own schools. It is even more difficult for the Chinese to integrate today as the education standards in privately-funded Chinese schools have surpassed the education standards in national schools. Islamisation in South East Asia since the 1990s have also seaped into the national school identity shunning the ethnic minorities. Preferential treatment is also practiced in national schools.
> 
> Malaysia is caught in the middle-trap income and have great difficulty retaining talent because the working environment is simply not suited for competitive and talented individuals especially those of the ethnic minority and countries like Singapore has long pitched for Malaysian talents. Singaporean universities are known to offer courses, scholarships and study loans to deserving students who fail to get a place in Malaysian universities due to their ethnicity. Other Malaysian talents prefer to work in developed countries due to its developed infrastructures and the R&D investments in the various sectors.
> 
> Malaysia has much to lose if it refuses to transform and make key changes to its policies.


^^ malaysia truly asia. :colgate:
malay archipelago + chinese + indian in one country.



Restless said:


> And I think it all begins with the education system, as every child must be taught to believe in One Malaysia.


you know the root of the problem. kay:


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> The other 3 richer prefecture level cities of Jiangsu are Changzhou, Zhenjiang and Nanjing - all 3 between 9400 and 10 000.


Combined population 15,7 millions.


chornedsnorkack said:


> And all 3 are contiguous to each other and Suzhou and Wuxi - these 5 making up the whole south bank of Yangtze.


Thus combined population 32,5 millions.
And combined GDP of 372 milliards!


chornedsnorkack said:


> None of the 8 prefecture-level cities of Jiangsu is has as much as 6000 - not even Nantong, Taizhou or Yangzhou right across Yangtze!


For example, Nantong seems to have GDP 51195 millions, population 7,283 millions. Average GDP 7029... looks like a discrepancy in sources.


----------



## Brown_Eastern

*Malaysian states gdp per capita in 2010:

----States/City--------nominal------------ppp-----

1. Kuala Lumpur city----18048-----------32126 
2. Penang--------------10792-----------19210 
3. Sarawak-------------10744-----------19125 
4. Selangor-------------10117-----------18008 
5. Labuan---------------9392------------16718 
6. Negeri Sembilan------8866------------15782 
7. Melaka---------------7967------------14181 
8. Pahang---------------7336------------13058 
9. Johor-----------------6745------------12007 
10. Terengganu---------6202------------11038 
11. Sabah---------------5562-------------9900 
12. Perak----------------5190------------9238 
13. Perlis----------------4934-------------8783 
14. Kedah---------------4288-------------7633 
15. Kelantan-------------2669------------4750 *


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Brown_Eastern said:


> *Malaysian states gdp per capita in 2010:
> 
> ----States/City--------nominal------------ppp-----
> 
> 1. Kuala Lumpur city----18048-----------32126
> 2. Penang--------------10792-----------19210
> 3. Sarawak-------------10744-----------19125
> 4. Selangor-------------10117-----------18008
> 5. Labuan---------------9392------------16718
> 6. Negeri Sembilan------8866------------15782
> 7. Melaka---------------7967------------14181
> 8. Pahang---------------7336------------13058
> 9. Johor-----------------6745------------12007
> *


Thanks!
Selangor and Kuala Lumpur are rich because of capital, Penang because a city state, Sarawak because of oil.

Why is Negeri Sembilan so rich?

Johor is not particularly rich - despite being next to Singapore....


----------



## Brown_Eastern

Restless said:


> *Greater Kuala Lumpur 2011*
> GDP Per capita (PPP) = $22119 ($12400 x 1.78)
> Population 7.2million





Motul said:


> Bogota, Colombia (pop. 8 million):
> 
> GDP nominal: $82 billion ($10,100)
> GDP PPP: $124 billion ($15,500)


Greater Kuala Lumpur / Klang Valey almost same with Bogota :grouphug:

Greater KL GDP nominal: $12400 X 7.2 = 89 billion


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Population:
Kuala Lumpur - 1,67 millions on 243 square km, density 6696
Senangor - 5,41 millions on 8104 square km, density 668
Putrajaya - 68 000 on 49 square km, density 1387

What is the per capita GDP of Putrajaya?


----------



## Brown_Eastern

chornedsnorkack said:


> Thanks!
> Selangor and Kuala Lumpur are rich because of capital, Penang because a city state, Sarawak because of oil.
> 
> Why is Negeri Sembilan so rich?
> 
> Johor is not particularly rich - despite being next to Singapore....


Negeri Sembilan is quite rich because it's big cities like Nilai and Seremban already integrated with Greater KL even though they are not considered as part of Greater KL.

About Johor I believe it is the rural that drag down the gdp per capita. It can be see by the fact that in 2009 GDP per capita (ppp) of Iskandar (largest urban area in Johor and account for 60% of Johor's total GDP) was $14,790 http://www.iskandarmalaysia.com.my/what-is-iskandar-malaysia-fact-figures


----------



## chornedsnorkack

chornedsnorkack said:


> Thus combined population 32,5 millions.
> And combined GDP of 372 milliards!


Meaning that the mean is over 11 400 - compared to 23 million people and 11 200 per capita GDP of Shanghai municipality!


chornedsnorkack said:


> For example, Nantong seems to have GDP 51195 millions, population 7,283 millions. Average GDP 7029... looks like a discrepancy in sources.


The other north shore prefecture-level cities are:
Taizhou - 30264/4,619=6552
Yangzhou - 32934/4,415=7460


----------



## patchay

jlshyang said:


> Malaysia really is a complicated and unique country due to its heterogeneous composition.
> 
> There was just too much catching up to do for the ethnic majority in those days to warrant the implementation of the 'preferential treatment' economic policy. However, there were flaws in the implementation of the policy by ruling politicians and civil servants and after 50 years it was deemed as a right which shall continue perpetually by the ethnic majority. Any talks to modify the policy will instantly cause an uproar.
> 
> The various ethnicity in Malaysia has grown to become very race conscious due to the sensitivities related to the economic policy. As a result, the Malaysian society is fractured and divided along racial lines. As of today, I do not think that Malaysia can do away with meritocracy without risking a race riot and/or heightened racial tensions. The ethnic Chinese in Malaysia is not integrated into the local society like other SEA countries simply because this was one of the guarantees given to the Chinese during independence. Ethnic Chinese in other SEA countries were 'forced' to integrate by the ruling governments.
> 
> Therefore, the ethnic Chinese have kept its distinct identity and they have built their own schools. It is even more difficult for the Chinese to integrate today as the education standards in privately-funded Chinese schools have surpassed the education standards in national schools. Islamisation in South East Asia since the 1990s have also seaped into the national school identity shunning the ethnic minorities. Preferential treatment is also practiced in national schools.
> 
> Malaysia is caught in the middle-trap income and have great difficulty retaining talent because the working environment is simply not suited for competitive and talented individuals especially those of the ethnic minority and countries like Singapore has long pitched for Malaysian talents. Singaporean universities are known to offer courses, scholarships and study loans to deserving students who fail to get a place in Malaysian universities due to their ethnicity. Other Malaysian talents prefer to work in developed countries due to its developed infrastructures and the R&D investments in the various sectors.
> 
> Malaysia has much to lose if it refuses to transform and make key changes to its policies.


Well said. 

I'm keeping myself optimistic for now and see what happens after the Elections. :colgate:


----------



## megacity30

Yuri S Andrade said:


> If a bread costs 1 euro in Paris and 0.05 in India, is precisely because India is poor not the other way round.
> 
> That's why the nominal is the only one that matters. For how much I'll buy 1 dollar? 1.74 reais. It's now like I can choose the PPP exchange rate. And this under/overvalued means nothing. If a country with an allegedly undervalued currency decides to increase its value, it will ruin its exports, damaging greatly the economy. On the other round, if the country decides to devalue, people will buy less goods, the external debt will be hard to pay, the national companies will be easier to get acquired. So basically each country has the right currency exchange for them and in this context, over-undervalue currency is meaningless.


:lol: I checked your figures for India are probably from 1978.

The cheapest loaf of bread you could get in India in 2011 is about 0.3 Euro as compared to the 1 Euro in Paris.


references: 
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=India

http://themoneyconverter.com/EUR/INR.aspx


----------



## megacity30

Jonesy55 said:


> The US federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. Working 40 hours per week all year at that wage totals around $15,000....


Yes, that's true. However, the US federal minimum wage is being increased to $9.50

Canada's minimum wage ranges from US$ 9 to US 11; an average of US$ 10.25

Therefore, the average annual salary on minium wage in Canada is US$ 22000.

I'm sorry if I offended someone, but I believe Canada is more developed (based on health-care, education, human-rights and a legally gun-free country) than even the USA.


reference:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/story/2012-02-02/raising-minimum-wage/52940286/1


----------



## patchay

^^ As a commoner, I might have to disagree with Skyprince on the brain drain issue. I was almost getting a job back in Australia, and assuming if I stayed back then one down for Malaysia. Brain drain in Malaysia is already a chronic disease as middle-age professionals (including Malays) can go and Love to go anywhere outside the country.

However, if I'm a politician, then perhaps Skyprince's point can be justified. Yes, Malaysia can "try" to absorb those foreign students for a start, and only and only we pushed the "panic" button. 

But in reality, most jobs still mention "Must be Malaysian" as one of the no. 1 pre-requisite - and for foreign students to fill up our executive/entry-level jobs is highly unlikely in this decade. Most collared-shirt expats are still mainly imported via foreign companies (with higher remuneration) for them to be in Malaysia, although we slowly see some freshie Western, Middle Eastern/South Asian and even from Brazil expats in certain sectors like oil/gas, mainly due to the "career" growth potential in East Asia. (recently there was an increase of expats from Turkmenistan? :lol 

It is also interesting to note as Malaysian companies increasingly invest abroad, many of these companies have also brought in local residents from that country to work in KL. Thus, diversity of staffs is increasingly becoming more important given globalisation, not just in Malaysia but all of Asia and the WORLD.

Politician's point of view is that BRAIN DRAIN is merely a globalisation issue. Agree or disagree?


----------



## agliati2005

Certainly Peru, because is the faster growing economy in this part of the world.


----------



## Motul

FAAN said:


> While in Brazil, an increase of 7% equates to 200 billion dollars in Peru amounts to $ 15 billion and 20 billion in Colombia. Remember that Brazil is already industrialized country emerging Latino higher GDP, higher exports, increased area, increased population and a large number of natural resources, is also the only Latin American country to have technology for energy and atomic bombs. Within the social already have high HDI, per capita GDP of $ 14,000, 6th best in educating the American continent, and still many improvements in infrastructure, health, among others.


Who cares how much it equates to. In USA it's close to 1 trillion. So? Everything is relative.


----------



## eklips

agliati2005 said:


> Certainly Peru, because is the faster growing economy in this part of the world.


Most of the peruvian growth is based on exports of raw material (because of chinese demand) and construction.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

*One country that everybody has forgot, Russia!

GDP PER CAPITA (PPP) - 16,687 USD

HDI - 0.755*


----------



## Motul

eklips said:


> Most of the peruvian growth is based on exports of raw material (because of chinese demand) and construction.


What's your point? :?


----------



## Motul

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> One country that everybody has forgot, Russia!
> 
> GDP PER CAPITA (PPP) - 16,687 USD
> 
> HDI - 0.755


Corruption is way too high there.. It'll be a true challenge for them to change that.


----------



## Skyprince

Restless said:


> But you do realise that you don't get the best high-quality professionals? You just end up with the mediocre ones, who couldn't get to Singapore, USA, etc
> 
> And if you're a talented professional, you have a choice between Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. Eventually they will have children, and who wants to raise their child in a place that overtly discriminates against them?


Compared to Singapore or Hongkong yes maybe hard to compete, but still Malaysia is *one of the richest countries in Asia*, with one of the best cityscapes , living environment/suburbia lifestyles and with world-class infrastructure better than vast majority of Asia. Living expense is really cheap here, comparable to Indonesia and India. Thus with slighly lower salary offered to the best talents in Singapore or Hong Kong, foreigners could enjoy life like King here in Malaysia :cheers: 

Competition for best talent is natural. But it doesn't require rocket science to fix - the solution is very easy for Malaysia, especially that we are located in the middle of Asia, with pools of foreigners willing to work long hours and produce quality output at lower salary than in the West  Or gradually reduce the racial policy and we'll see many Malaysians abroad will return and contribute to this country. It's only a matter of time to press the "Panic button" when we are too desperate


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Motul said:


> What's your point? :?


He hates Peru. As simple as that.

I find very curious this kind of reasoning. What's wrong with raw materials? If a country has this kind of product available, shouldn't they make money out of it?


----------



## Skyprince

patchay said:


> However, if I'm a politician, then perhaps Skyprince's point can be justified. Yes, Malaysia can "try" to absorb those foreign students for a start, and only and only we pushed the "panic" button.


Brain drain issue ? It's far from being chronic IMO. Even Australia and UK have many of their professionals working abroad. 

And, at first sight, roughly 80%-90% of Malaysian forumers in SSC are currently living in Malaysia if I've not mistaken ? It's quite an impressive rate IMO. And pretty recently many professional foreigners ( especially from South Asia and Muslim-majority countries ) are brought in to work as Engineers, Doctors, Lecturers etc in Malaysian/Multi-national companies and local universities.

I think that Malaysia is in the right direction to achieve developed-country status by 2020 :cheers: By 2020 also I think Chile & Argentina will reach developed status.


----------



## megacity30

Skyprince said:


> Brain drain issue ? It's far from being chronic IMO. Even Australia and UK have many of their professionals working abroad.
> 
> And, at first sight, roughly 80%-90% of Malaysian forumers in SSC are currently living in Malaysia if I've not mistaken ? It's quite an impressive rate IMO. And pretty recently many professional foreigners ( especially from South Asia and Muslim-majority countries ) are brought in to work as Engineers, Doctors, Lecturers etc in Malaysian/Multi-national companies and local universities.
> 
> I think that Malaysia is in the right direction to achieve developed-country status by 2020 :cheers: By 2020 also I think Chile & Argentina will reach developed status.


Well-put, Skyprince. :cheers:

I agree that, all objective and subjective parameters considered, Malaysia is going to be the next developed country in Asia.

The following countries and autonomous regions from East, South-East and West Asia are already economically developed:-

Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Macau, Taiwan, Israel, Singapore, United Arab Emirates, Brunei, Qatar and Bahrain.

Malaysia is the nearest in Asia to being in this list as well.

The following countries in West, Central and South Asia are also very close to the US$ 20000 GDP(PPP)-per-capita threshold:-

Seychelles, Saudi Arabia, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Mauritius, Iran, Oman, and Azerbaijan.

The following two countries in EurAsia are also very near:-

Russia and Turkey

Finally, the economic giant, China, and Thailand are rapidly on their way to getting there in 10 years.
Ask me again within 20 years- India will likely on the "very close" list as well.


----------



## jlshyang

Skyprince said:


> Compared to Singapore or Hongkong yes maybe hard to compete, but still Malaysia is *one of the richest countries in Asia*, with one of the best cityscapes , living environment/suburbia lifestyles and with world-class infrastructure better than vast majority of Asia. Living expense is really cheap here, comparable to Indonesia and India. Thus with slighly lower salary offered to the best talents in Singapore or Hong Kong, foreigners could enjoy life like King here in Malaysia :cheers:
> 
> Competition for best talent is natural. But it doesn't require rocket science to fix - the solution is very easy for Malaysia, especially that we are located in the middle of Asia, with pools of foreigners willing to work long hours and produce quality output at lower salary than in the West  Or gradually reduce the racial policy and we'll see many Malaysians abroad will return and contribute to this country. It's only a matter of time to press the "Panic button" when we are too desperate


You do realise that the Malaysian government has set up Talent Corp to attract highly skilled and highly educated workers right? The government is aware that brain drain is causing us to be trapped under the middle income bracket for a while now and they are trying to address that situation. On the other hand they do not have the political will to liberalise some of the policies hence Talent Corp has failed to attract many high skilled workers over the last couple of years. They have failed to woe back highly skilled Malaysians abroad too despite the various tax incentives. They have already used the so called 'panic button' out of desperation and failed!

Quality of life is also better for expatriates in Singapore and Hong Kong. The major complains I hear from expatriates in Malaysia is that there is way too much politicking in Malaysia and they are sick and tired of the politicians exploiting race and religious issues every now and then. What they want to see in our newspapers is politicians debating on bread and butter issues and how can they push Malaysia into the high income bracket rather than name-callings and politicians making baseless accusations of one another.


----------



## Skyprince

jlshyang said:


> You do realise that the Malaysian government has set up Talent Corp to attract highly skilled and highly educated workers right? The government is aware that brain drain is causing us to be trapped under the middle income bracket for a while now and they are trying to address that situation. On the other hand they do not have the political will to liberalise some of the policies hence Talent Corp has failed to attract many high skilled workers over the last couple of years. They have failed to woe back highly skilled Malaysians abroad too despite the various tax incentives. They have already used the so called 'panic button' out of desperation and failed!
> 
> Quality of life is also better for expatriates in Singapore and Hong Kong. The major complains I hear from expatriates in Malaysia is that there is way too much politicking in Malaysia and they are sick and tired of the politicians exploiting race and religious issues every now and then. What they want to see in our newspapers is politicians debating on bread and butter issues and how can they push Malaysia into the high income bracket rather than name-callings and politicians making baseless accusations of one another.


Emm but brain drain is a GLOBAL issue, including developed countries, not only unique to Malaysia and few other countries. Thanks to the better air transport system and use of internet/emails etc- people from allover the world can easily get posted abroad. The more developed a country, the more tendency they tend to get brain gain, in return. And Malaysia's per-capita income is above world's average- so the "attractiveness" is there. 

Quality of life ? It depends. If you're coming from USA or Canada or even Australia I think you more likely prefer to live in villas/bungalows/ landed property and driving own car in Malaysia instead of living in apartment and using public transport most of the time like in Singapore or Hong Kong. It's still possible in SG/HK but landed properties in SG/HK are extremely costly IMO and beyond reach for most professionals IMO. 

And among many foreign students in Malaysia, many of them are very highly-qualified and can contribute alot to this country.


----------



## jlshyang

Skyprince said:


> Emm but brain drain is a GLOBAL issue, including developed countries, not only unique to Malaysia and few other countries. Thanks to the better air transport system and use of internet/emails etc- people from allover the world can easily get posted abroad. The more developed a country, the more tendency they tend to get brain gain, in return. And Malaysia's per-capita income is above world's average- so the "attractiveness" is there.
> 
> Quality of life ? It depends. If you're coming from USA or Canada or even Australia I think you more likely prefer to live in villas/bungalows/ landed property and driving own car in Malaysia instead of living in apartment and using public transport most of the time like in Singapore or Hong Kong. It's still possible in SG/HK but landed properties in SG/HK are extremely costly IMO and beyond reach for most professionals IMO.
> 
> And among many foreign students in Malaysia, many of them are very highly-qualified and can contribute alot to this country.


It is a global issue but the developed countries have a larger pool of highly skilled workers and they have managed to retain a significant proportion of their highly-skilled workers in their country. It is also balanced off with the migration of highly skilled workers from developing countries like Malaysia. The attractiveness applies mainly to countries with lower per capita income than Malaysia as you can see amongst our millions of foreigners.

Yes, some of them might prefer living in landed properties which is more likely in Malaysia but how many would prefer sitting in our horrendous traffic jams as opposed to conveniently catching the MRT or efficient taxis in Singapore or Hong Kong. They is also the issue of security if you live in a landed properties in Malaysia. Of course you may live in a gated community but then again how many expatriates prefer living in a prison-like environment. There is already the perception that it is unsafe hence the need for security. Singapore and Hong Kong would naturally be a better place to live.

Many foreign students return to their home country after finishing their university education and it is very subjective to say that they will contribute to our economy after their education. I have not heard of many foreign students who stayed on. Besides, most foreign students have caused much trouble and social problems here. I'm sure you are aware.


----------



## Mzz(:

in Latin America : Chile, Uruguay, Panama, Maybe Argentina, and Maybe Mexico if they fix the violence-drugs stuff.

Colombia and Peru are doing it great, Venezuela could do it way better at this moment...


----------



## I(L)WTC

Panama before Argentina? :crazy:


----------



## jlshyang

The Malaysian economy is still doing decently well because we were quick to tap into certain important markets such as China and the Middle East. There is alot of investments coming in from the Middle East and the Arabs prefer Malaysia to other Asian countries because Malaysia is a Muslim country and on the other hand it is fairly liberal and progressive. You will find many Lebanese, Iranians and other Middle Eastern people along the Changkat Bukit Bintang entertainment strip and they are amongst the top spenders in our malls. The investment arm of Qatar and UAE has significant investments in Malaysia. The participation of these Arab states has also propelled Malaysia into an Islamic finance hub.

The government and local ethnic Chinese businessmen has also developed strong ties with China. Many local businesses have ventured into China and a Malaysian departmental store (Parkson) has become one of the biggest and most popular departmental stores in China. China has been expanding its influence in Malaysia as well by sending their students to our universities and the Chinese government has offered project financing and construction for some of the major projects in Malaysia. 

However, in the long term we require a big pool of highly skilled and highly educated individuals. "Protectionist" policies must gradually be liberalised and modified to focus on alleviating poverty and increasing the pool of middle class individuals. It is only through meritocracy can our universities and major corporations achieve its potential. 

Race-based political parties must make way for multiracial parties through merger or establishment of new parties. A Race Relations Act must be put into place to ensure racial stability and harmony. Vernacular schools should gradually make way for a new single school system to achieve the One Malaysia concept. National schools should transform and spot-checks must be carried out to standardise the various national schools especially those in the rural area and more emphasis should be given to English. 

The development and transformation of the public transport system must be accelerated to reduce dependency on private vehicles. Gradually, area congestion pricing should be introduced in major cities to reduce traffic congestion, tax imposed on old vehicles and motorcycles to increase public transport usage. More pedestrian walkways to be built and upgraded. 

Reduce the headcount of our bloated civil service and increase the remuneration of deserving civil servants to weed out corruption.

To me these are some of the indications which should ideally be in place if Malaysia is to be a developed nation.


----------



## Motul

I(L)WTC said:


> Panama before Argentina? :crazy:


Its possible. Its growing very fast


----------



## patchay

jlshyang said:


> The Malaysian economy is still doing decently well because we were quick to tap into certain important markets such as China and the Middle East. There is alot of investments coming in from the Middle East and the Arabs prefer Malaysia to other Asian countries because Malaysia is a Muslim country and on the other hand it is fairly liberal and progressive. You will find many Lebanese, Iranians and other Middle Eastern people along the Changkat Bukit Bintang entertainment strip and they are amongst the top spenders in our malls. The investment arm of Qatar and UAE has significant investments in Malaysia. The participation of these Arab states has also propelled Malaysia into an Islamic finance hub.
> 
> The government and local ethnic Chinese businessmen has also developed strong ties with China. Many local businesses have ventured into China and a Malaysian departmental store (Parkson) has become one of the biggest and most popular departmental stores in China. China has been expanding its influence in Malaysia as well by sending their students to our universities and the Chinese government has offered project financing and construction for some of the major projects in Malaysia.
> 
> However, in the long term we require a big pool of highly skilled and highly educated individuals. "Protectionist" policies must gradually be liberalised and modified to focus on alleviating poverty and increasing the pool of middle class individuals. It is only through meritocracy can our universities and major corporations achieve its potential.
> 
> Race-based political parties must make way for multiracial parties through merger or establishment of new parties. A Race Relations Act must be put into place to ensure racial stability and harmony. Vernacular schools should gradually make way for a new single school system to achieve the One Malaysia concept. National schools should transform and spot-checks must be carried out to standardise the various national schools especially those in the rural area and more emphasis should be given to English.
> 
> The development and transformation of the public transport system must be accelerated to reduce dependency on private vehicles. Gradually, area congestion pricing should be introduced in major cities to reduce traffic congestion, tax imposed on old vehicles and motorcycles to increase public transport usage. More pedestrian walkways to be built and upgraded.
> 
> Reduce the headcount of our bloated civil service and increase the remuneration of deserving civil servants to weed out corruption.
> 
> To me these are some of the indications which should ideally be in place if Malaysia is to be a developed nation.


I share the sentiment. Well said. However, it seems vernacular schools will never move into mainstream single school system if both are not of same idealogy and quality. 

I believe most of these points are not just for Malaysia, but also for all other developing nations in *Asia, Eastern Europe, South America, South Africa and Russia*. :cheers: 

In Asia specifically, we have been building skyscrapers and large expressways until we forgotten about: 
- good public transport system, 
- good pedestrianised networks,
- good security, coverage of civil and modern amenities, 
- good severage and waste management, 
- good practices in urban planning and sustainabiltiy standards, 
- good recreational and public spaces with greens/nature, 
- good architectural landmarks and places for the arts and human soul, 
- hollistic preservation of heritage/historical/environmental sites, and 
- urbanism that promotes convenience for all groups of societies, good lifestyle and health.

Alot of cities in Asia are becoming more "plastic" because it simply lack the "human feel", except only the "money feel" and trafic jam jam jams.


----------



## Skyprince

megacity30 said:


> Well-put, Skyprince. :cheers:
> 
> I agree that, all objective and subjective parameters considered, Malaysia is going to be the next developed country in Asia.
> 
> The following countries and autonomous regions from East, South-East and West Asia are already economically developed:-
> 
> Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Macau, Taiwan, Israel, Singapore, United Arab Emirates, Brunei, Qatar and Bahrain.
> 
> Malaysia is the nearest in Asia to being in this list as well.
> 
> The following countries in West, Central and South Asia are also very close to the US$ 20000 GDP(PPP)-per-capita threshold:-
> 
> Seychelles, Saudi Arabia, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Mauritius, Iran, Oman, and Azerbaijan.
> 
> The following two countries in EurAsia are also very near:-
> 
> Russia and Turkey
> 
> Finally, the economic giant, China, and Thailand are rapidly on their way to getting there in 10 years.
> Ask me again within 20 years- India will likely on the "very close" list as well.


Seychelles and Mauritius- is there any significant manufacturing/knowledge-based industry there ? 



jlshyang said:


> It is a global issue but the developed countries have a larger pool of highly skilled workers and they have managed to retain a significant proportion of their highly-skilled workers in their country. It is also balanced off with the migration of highly skilled workers from developing countries like Malaysia. The attractiveness applies mainly to countries with lower per capita income than Malaysia as you can see amongst our millions of foreigners.
> 
> Yes, some of them might prefer living in landed properties which is more likely in Malaysia but how many would prefer sitting in our horrendous traffic jams as opposed to conveniently catching the MRT or efficient taxis in Singapore or Hong Kong. They is also the issue of security if you live in a landed properties in Malaysia. Of course you may live in a gated community but then again how many expatriates prefer living in a prison-like environment. There is already the perception that it is unsafe hence the need for security. Singapore and Hong Kong would naturally be a better place to live.
> 
> Many foreign students return to their home country after finishing their university education and it is very subjective to say that they will contribute to our economy after their education. I have not heard of many foreign students who stayed on. Besides, most foreign students have caused much trouble and social problems here. I'm sure you are aware.


The competition for Malaysia isn't much- Singapore, Hong Kong , the Gulf , and ? ( in Asia ) Crime is problem in certain areas but still we are relatively safe country with low crime rate by Asian standard. And traffic jam ? Jakarta, Manila and Bangkok traffic jams are faaaar worse than KL, I've seen and experienced that by my own eyes. 

I know loads of my foreign friends who are now working in Malaysia- Indian, Kenyan, Moroccans, loads of Bangladeshis , etc. Many of them don't stay here because of preference for locals in companies, but if we lessen the rules and open up the opportunity I think most of them would definitely prefer to stay here. 

I think this issue ( brain drain and seeking the best talents ) is very subjective, for me it isn't a problem at all but for some it could be a problem.


----------



## Occit

Motul said:


> Its possible. Its growing very fast


Definitively Panama will reach the 20.000 US$ per inhabitant before Argentina.


----------



## Erran

Yuri S Andrade said:


> If a bread costs 1 euro in Paris and 0.05 in India, is precisely because India is poor not the other way round.


:lol:
1 bread is one bread, isn't it? 
No matter you eat it in India, in Paris, in Dubai, or slum in Nairobi, you'll still feel the same benefit. If your stomach is already full by eating 3 slices in Paris, will your stomach need at least 6 slices to be satisfied in India? Just because the price is a lot cheaper there? 

*Nope.*

If you only see it through nominal figure perspective, yes, you have to eat at least all those 6 slices in India to get the same benefit as 3 slices in Paris (nominal 3 Euros). 
Nothing to do with being rich or poor, high-income or low-income. 

That's why IMF, WB, or whatever party use *PPP* instead of *nominal* to determine the % of poverty, etc. 



> That's why the nominal is the only one that matters. For how much I'll buy 1 dollar? 1.74 reais.
> It's now like I can choose the PPP exchange rate. And this under/overvalued means nothing. If a country with an allegedly undervalued currency decides to increase its value, it will ruin its exports, damaging greatly the economy. On the other round, if the country decides to devalue, people will buy less goods, the external debt will be hard to pay, the national companies will be easier to get acquired. So basically each country has the right currency exchange for them and in this context, over-undervalue currency is meaningless.


So, it's all okay/natural if China pegs and keeps at fixed low value of the exchange rate of Yuan vs USD? Which causes made in China products so cheap?

So why did USA ask China to increase Yuan exchange rate vs USD? And why (if it's just right currency exchange for China) China agreed to increase it, step by step, continuously so it would not bring so big impact that could destroy the China's economy? 

China is not stupid to consciously destroy his own economy. He would not do that, unless he knew it himself that Yuan exchange rate is indeed much lower than it should be. 
So, there must be a normal line (you can call it fantasy :lol for each exchange rate.


----------



## Skyprince

In many ways Latin American countries tend to have some "developed country" characteristics and not reflective of their middle-income status:

1) Urbanization rate is very high.. Why is that ? Chile has almost similar income to Malaysia, but % of population in urban areas is really high. Same when we compare Venezuela/Peru to Thailand , etc. 

2) The level of city/street/public facity cleanliness is far better than what econ. stat suggests.

3) I heard somewhere that saving rate is pretty low in Latam . Very high consumption relative to salary earned. Is that true ?

4) The price of goods & service can be very high in many countries , on par or slightly lower than Western Europe

5) Looking at Latam Skyscrapercity sub-forums, the number of posts is *Very, very high, extremely active* :lol: and not reflective of population and economic status


----------



## haikiller11

The problem with Malaysia is there's a bunch of racists there. Chinese contributed a lot into Malaysian economy but they're being treated as second class citizens. Somebody is using Chinese money, corrupted on Chinese money and still punish the Chinese because they make more money than others :? How ridiculous it is!

In the end, high skilled Chinese move out to a better place (usually Hong Kong) and low skilled Indonesian poured into Malaysia.


----------



## isakres

Skyprince said:


> In many ways Latin American countries tend to have some "developed country" characteristics and not reflective of their middle-income status:
> 
> 1) Urbanization rate is very high.. Why is that ? Chile has almost similar income to Malaysia, but % of population in urban areas is really high. Same when we compare Venezuela/Peru to Thailand , etc.


It seems urbanization started first in LatinAmerica than in Asia. The migration to urban areas started in the 70s and our cities just boomed and the slums appeared since then.



Skyprince said:


> 2) The level of city/street/public facity cleanliness is far better than what econ. stat suggests.


As in my experience the level of street /public facility cleanlinesss among Latin countries is directly related to their PIB per Capita level (PPP). (Of course is a personal perception).

All latin countries still have some areas that need attention asap, even in Chile.



Skyprince said:


> 3) I heard somewhere that saving rate is pretty low in Latam . Very high consumption relative to salary earned. Is that true ?


Historically Latin Countries have had lower saving rates than lets say, China. Saving rates are growing tho lead by Chile.



Skyprince said:


> 4) The price of goods & service can be very high in many countries , on par or slightly lower than Western Europe


Prices of goods & services vary between countries. Brazil has the highest costs of living in the region.




Skyprince said:


> 5) Looking at Latam Skyscrapercity sub-forums, the number of posts is *Very, very high, extremely active* :lol: and not reflective of population and economic status


La Plaza in the Latin forum is the ultimate proof that Latin countries are still third world. That forum smells like Bananas lol.


----------



## RonnieR

Restless said:


> I'm referring to the CHILDREN of the tribes. They cannot make their own decisions, and are reliant on their parents or the government to make decisions for them. Therefore the parents and the government are responsible for looking to their future needs.
> 
> Education is paramount to this.
> 
> ===
> The current education system also means is that Malaysia does not reward people based on their ability or merit. And it also means that the Malay Muslim majority explicitly condone the existence of 2nd class citizens in their own country. That is not consistent with one nation and one people.
> 
> And if you look at Thailand, you can see that the Chinese have assimilated to become a Buddhist Sino-Thai elite that dominate politics, business and the military. But the key point is, their allegiance is to the nation of Thailand and their are considered Thai.
> 
> If you look at the Philippines, they have merged to become a Christian Catholic Sino-Filipino elite that dominate politics and business. Again, their allegiance is with the nation of the Philippines, and they are considered Filipino
> 
> And you can look at Singapore, which really tries to treat its ethnic minorities as equal citizens to the Chinese majority, and provide education and jobs for all. Again, everyone is considered Singaporean irrespective of race.
> 
> Then if you look to the developed world, the Chinese and Indians have no problem integrating in the USA or in Europe.
> 
> So I think the question is why should Malaysia and Indonesia have such trouble?





Skyprince said:


> Its really because they ( rural tribes in Borneo ) want such lifestyle. How can we force people to change, if they don't want ?
> They can simply move to nearby cities if they want, and get formal education etc.
> 
> Emm about the racial thing, yea what u said is true but we have to do that because of our unique ethnic composition. Ethnic Chinese makes up >25% of population and they are really into business. If the divide between races is too big , it would create serious resentment thus very possibly destroying the whole country . It's better to grow "slighly below real potential" than to see the country destroyed wholly. We are saving everyone, including the minority , actually !
> 
> Even ethnic Chinese, who make less than 10% of Indonesia, Thailand and Philippines dominate their economy significantly & have strong influence in politics ( Thailand's case ) , so imagine... in Malaysia we have 25%...


Yes, that's right. In 2011 list of Filipino billionaires and top 40 richest Filipinos, 20 are Chinese Filipinos, 6 have Spanish ancestry and the remainder - 14 are the Filipinos (Malay). 

Source: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/86/philippines-billionaires-11_land.html

Despite the seemingly imbalance of ratio of Chinese Filipinos (total population viz a 'viz control of economy), there has been no racial hatred nor problem among the citizens. History speaks also that that there has been no racial riots nor war based on race that happened in our country. However, Rebellion and Moslem separatists problems are another issue. 

*"Restless"* is right: Education was the key. Chinese schools have been allowed in the country since the Spanish colonial period. Philippine Tiong Se Academy was established in 1899 and is still existing to date. During the Spanish era, the Chinese have been doing business in the country and regarded as the "middle class". Their reputation has been established for centuries, thus it is a common belief here that if you're a Chinese, then you must be a businessman and able although a few of them are just average earners. 

Most of them also converted to Catholicism, but they still practice the Chinese traditions/beliefs like Lunar New Year, Feng Shui and the like.

Our national hero, Jose Rizal, former President Corazon Cojuangco Aquino and her son, who is the current President, have Chinese ancestry. I guess because of the strong assimilation and acceptance of Chinese culture and people since the colonial period, it has been brought forward and developed into stronger ties. The inter-marriage between the Chinese and local is also common here, thus the rise of Chinese Mestizo/Mestiza.

Well, for the Philippines to become a developed country, I hope it will happen in our generation. The key urban centers have high GDP i.e. Metro Manila's GDP Per Capita, Nominal in 2010 at *US$15K* but pulled down by the poor provinces specifically the conflict zone areas in the South.

http://www.nscb.gov.ph/sna/default.asp


----------



## Restless

Motul said:


> Its possible. Its growing very fast


Panama actually has a lot in common with Singapore.


----------



## jlshyang

Skyprince said:


> Seychelles and Mauritius- is there any significant manufacturing/knowledge-based industry there ?
> 
> 
> 
> The competition for Malaysia isn't much- Singapore, Hong Kong , the Gulf , and ? ( in Asia ) Crime is problem in certain areas but still we are relatively safe country with low crime rate by Asian standard. And traffic jam ? Jakarta, Manila and Bangkok traffic jams are faaaar worse than KL, I've seen and experienced that by my own eyes.
> 
> I know loads of my foreign friends who are now working in Malaysia- Indian, Kenyan, Moroccans, loads of Bangladeshis , etc. Many of them don't stay here because of preference for locals in companies, but if we lessen the rules and open up the opportunity I think most of them would definitely prefer to stay here.
> 
> I think this issue ( brain drain and seeking the best talents ) is very subjective, for me it isn't a problem at all but for some it could be a problem.


Why compare with other developing countries when we want to be a developed country? If all Malaysians are like you and are easily contented we will never improve for the better.


----------



## patchay

jlshyang said:


> Why compare with other developing countries when we want to be a developed country? If all Malaysians are like you and are easily contented we will never improve for the better.


Right on the spot. 

I could see both sides, but at the end of the day we need to benchmark ourselves with "developed" nations if we ever want to be like them.


----------



## Benzion-Witler

FAAN said:


> While in Brazil, an increase of 7% equates to 200 billion dollars in Peru amounts to $ 15 billion and 20 billion in Colombia. Remember that Brazil is already industrialized country emerging Latino higher GDP, higher exports, increased area, increased population and a large number of natural resources, is also the only Latin American country to have technology for energy and atomic bombs. Within the social already have high HDI, per capita GDP of $ 14,000, 6th best in educating the American continent, and still many improvements in infrastructure, health, among others.


You are wrong, nowadays the only latin american country that owns fulls-scale nuclear technology with local design is Argentina; in fact Brazil has bought it´s next research reactor from the argentinian atomic authority. 
On the other hand I agree that Brazil will be classified as developed country long, long before Peru or Colombia which have a huge path to go, it is not only economic growing that guarantees that status!


----------



## Benzion-Witler

Motul said:


> Its possible. Its growing very fast


Growing very fast?
You compare a country that designs, builds and exports hich tech produces as research reactors (your country has one of the first argie series outside Lima), one of the main producers worldwide of radiosotopes, radiological instruments, biotechology, satellite technology (Brazil´s next satellite generation will be controlled in space by built-in argentinian designed modules) top-notch-state of the art-most modern agricultural machines, software, that is the biggest producer worldwide of non-welded steeltubes, the biggest heavy water supplier in the world, one of the few zircalloy producers worldwide with a banking&financial centre at its most?
What difference does it make when Panama´s Per Capita Income rocket-boosts at 40.000 USD/year when income distribution is one of the worst of the Continent! 
Boy....Boy....


----------



## chornedsnorkack

The poorest developed country in Asia is Taiwan. Slightly poorer than South Korea, appreciably poorer than Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan. Slightly richer than Czech Republic, Slovakia and Estonia, which are the poorest developed countries.


Comparing Malaysia with Taiwan, which country do you think passes the finish line sooner - Malaysia or China? China has a longer way to go, but Malaysia also has long to go, and long way where China might pass.


----------



## sweet-d

Benzion-Witler said:


> Growing very fast?
> You compare a country that designs, builds and exports hich tech produces as research reactors (your country has one of the first argie series outside Lima), one of the main producers worldwide of radiosotopes, radiological instruments, biotechology, satellite technology (Brazil´s next satellite generation will be controlled in space by built-in argentinian designed modules) top-notch-state of the art-most modern agricultural machines, software, that is the biggest producer worldwide of non-welded steeltubes, the biggest heavy water supplier in the world, one of the few zircalloy producers worldwide with a banking&financial centre at its most?
> What difference does it make when Panama´s Per Capita Income rocket-boosts at 40.000 USD/year when income distribution is one of the worst of the Continent!
> Boy....Boy....


jealous much?


----------



## Skyprince

jlshyang said:


> Why compare with other developing countries when we want to be a developed country? If all Malaysians are like you and are easily contented we will never improve for the better.


Emm im not comparing at all, did I say we should remain stagnant ? We should take some leaf from all developed nations, *especially huge nations with huge landmass* like us, and with experience in handling people from different backgrounds. The nearest IMO are Australia, Canada ,Switzerland etc. We cannot take all for sure, but need to adjust to local conditions.

And I prefer to be "realistic" - when ur saying "Malaysia suffers from chronic brain drain" is it chronic by world standard ? Of course not- but probably yes when compared to developed countries. When u say traffic jam is "horrible" in KL & Malaysian cities- is it horrible by world standard ? Again of course not, majority of Asia and even many European capitals like London have more serious traffic jam than us. 




isakres said:


> La Plaza in the Latin forum is the ultimate proof that Latin countries are still third world. That forum smells like Bananas lol.


I found that Latin Americans ( I refer to both Central & South America ) are quite curious about outside world and different world cultures, something I highly admire. It seems everyone can blend in nicely into Latino circle.


----------



## Benzion-Witler

sweet-d said:


> jealous much?


Of what? Can you expand? Highly unlikely to happen!:cheers:


----------



## jlshyang

Skyprince said:


> Emm im not comparing at all, did I say we should remain stagnant ? We should take some leaf from all developed nations, *especially huge nations with huge landmass* like us, and with experience in handling people from different backgrounds. The nearest IMO are Australia, Canada ,Switzerland etc. We cannot take all for sure, but need to adjust to local conditions.
> 
> And I prefer to be "realistic" - when ur saying "Malaysia suffers from chronic brain drain" is it chronic by world standard ? Of course not- but probably yes when compared to developed countries. When u say traffic jam is "horrible" in KL & Malaysian cities- is it horrible by world standard ? Again of course not, majority of Asia and even many European capitals like London have more serious traffic jam than us.


We're discussing about whether Malaysia will be the next country to achieve developed nation standards so why bring in the world standard. We are aspiring to be a developed nation so yes we should keep the discussions to developed nation standards. From what I see, judging by the developed nation standards, the brain drain issue is indeed chronic and there is alot of room for improvement in Malaysia's public transport connectivity and efficiency.

London has more serious jam compared to Kuala Lumpur? Oh really?!

I'm not saying that Malaysia is bad but to attain the developed nation standard, we need to catch up quickly or risk being surpassed by other nations which are presently less developed than us.


----------



## Skyprince

jlshyang said:


> We're discussing about whether Malaysia will be the next country to achieve developed nation standards so why bring in the world standard. We are aspiring to be a developed nation so yes we should keep the discussions to developed nation standards. From what I see, judging by the developed nation standards, the brain drain issue is indeed chronic and there is alot of room for improvement in Malaysia's public transport connectivity and efficiency.


Alright, then we are in agreement  I agree with u now- we should not compare ourselves to developing nations anymore. We must compare Malaysia with developed rich countries now :cheers:

But when u said "chronic" its as if the country is *extremely desperate* (?) when it isn't.. I don't know many of my friends who are working abroad- all my Malay friends and relatives are working in Malaysia ( except those studying ) while only a handful of my Chinese friends are in Singapore, Netherlands and Australia.


----------



## Motul

Skyprince said:


> Emm im not comparing at all, did I say we should remain stagnant ? We should take some leaf from all developed nations, especially huge nations with huge landmass like us, and with experience in handling people from different backgrounds. The nearest IMO are Australia, Canada ,Switzerland etc. We cannot take all for sure, but need to adjust to local conditions.
> 
> And I prefer to be "realistic" - when ur saying "Malaysia suffers from chronic brain drain" is it chronic by world standard ? Of course not- but probably yes when compared to developed countries. When u say traffic jam is "horrible" in KL & Malaysian cities- is it horrible by world standard ? Again of course not, majority of Asia and even many European capitals like London have more serious traffic jam than us.
> 
> I found that Latin Americans ( I refer to both Central & South America ) are quite curious about outside world and different world cultures, something I highly admire. It seems everyone can blend in nicely into Latino circle.




The reason Latinscrapers is so active is because internet penetration in Latin America is high, so the more people that hav access to Internet, the more people will come across SSC.


----------



## jlshyang

Thankfully the Najib Administration has got all these infrastructure projects going under the National Blueprint. The High Speed Broadband Project and the Klang Valley MRT Project are amongst the biggest infrastructure projects in recent times to boost our infrastructure


----------



## gabrielbabb

Well about homosexuality Mexico has 2 extremes, LGBT people can marry in 1 state (there are also initiatives in other states such as Quintana Roo where is Cancun) and in the Federal District, but there are some states which don't want to accept it even when it is already written in the law that the marriage is accepted in all the republic and all the institutions.


----------



## megacity30

patchay said:


> The liberals can accept any time... but the conservatives, influenced by most of the politicians/leaders, will find it extremely hard in this decade.


Thanks for the diplomatic reply.  

It's the same even in highly-developed countries like Canada and the USA. The conservatives are still reluctant and disapprove of homosexuality.
However, what makes all the difference is the law of the land.
That's what moderates the conservatives. 
That's what elevates the status of a nation; not just how much each person makes at the end of each day.

Just my two-cents...


----------



## Motul

Skyprince said:


> That's interesting to know. How about the food & housing subsidy in Colombia does it exist ?
> 
> Would be great if u can post regional GDP data for Colombia.. so that we can compare the development in Bogota , Medellin, Cali, Cartagena, Buenaventura etc. :cheers:
> 
> If there is 1 thing Malaysia can learn from many Latin american countries that should be on how to develop mountainous area. Its awesome u build those major cities like Bogota, Quito, Mexico City, La Paz, etc on such high altitude !



As a liberal and market driven nation, Colombia incentivates mostly private investment as a road to development. This is completely opposite to countries such as venezuela and Argentina, where there is alot of subsidies granted at a high rate public spenditure and subsequent inflation. Public spenditure in Argentina is around 45%, in Colombia it's 28%. So yes, there are subsidies, but not as much as in other countries. However, Colombia's economic model is yielding results: 6% growth and 3,5% inflation during 2011 (the second lowest in L.A., after Panama). At the same time, poverty dropped from 40% in 2009 to 37% in 2010, for 2011 it probably dropped considerably seeing what a good year it was.

As for inequelity in the regions, that's Colombia's biggest flaw, and due mostly to history, geography (Colombia has an extremely difficult terrain, which left many areas isolated), and to being one of the most heterogenous societies on earth. The following map is very informative on the matter. Around 60% of Colombians live in the andean region, with a .43 GINI (comparable to Uruguay), while the rest live in much less favored regions.

It's in english, but it's easy to understand. GDP values are in Pesos, here's the equivalent in Dollars (nominal):

Zone 1-Andean: $7,500
Zone 2-Caribbean: $4,100
Zone 3-Northeastern: $8,300
Zone 4-South: $3,100
Zone 5- $2,500
Zone 6- $3,100











Note: NBI stands for poverty.


----------



## RonnieR

Motul said:


> Interesting, I never thought of it that way. It's true that latinscrapers is usually full of discussion, especially the economy thread lol. Another reason for this is may be that Latin America is the largest swath of land on earth that shares the same language and culture, except for Brazil, but Spanish and Portuguese are inter-legible, so we have no problem understanding eachother.
> 
> What is the Internet penetration like in Malaysia and other Asian countries? In Argentina, Uruguay, Chile and Colombia it's above 50% of the population. For Brazil and other's it's around 40%, and rapidly growing.





Skyprince said:


> ^^ Based on this side , Internet penetration rate as of June 2011 .... and shockingly some rich developed European countries have comparable penetration rate
> 
> Argentina 66.0 %
> *Malta 58.9 %*
> Malaysia 58.8 %
> Uruguay 56.1 %
> Chile 54.8 %
> Colombia 50.4 %
> *Italy 49.2 %*
> *Portugal 48.0 %*
> *Greece 46.2 %*
> Brazil 37.4 %
> China 36.3 %
> Mexico 30.7 %
> Thailand 27.4 %
> 
> http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm


Philippines' internet penetration ranked slightly higher than Indonesia and Thailand at 33%.

*Southeast Asia Digital Consumer Report September 30, 2011.*










http://www.kevinraychua.com/2011/07/one-in-three-consumers-in-philippines.html


----------



## RonnieR

I think Malaysia will attain the developed status in accordance with their target in year 2020. I have been monitoring the progress of Malaysia and they are well in that course. 

Cheers.


----------



## Brown_Eastern

RonnieR said:


> Philippines' internet penetration ranked slightly higher than Indonesia and Thailand at 33%.
> 
> *Southeast Asia Digital Consumer Report September 30, 2011.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.kevinraychua.com/2011/07/one-in-three-consumers-in-philippines.html


Why internet penetration for Malaysia in Nielsen report so low? So different from Economist Intelligence Unit statistic. 










http://www.eiu.com/index.asp?layout...eid=1162462501&industry_id=&category_id=&rf=0


----------



## Skyprince

megacity30 said:


> Engrossing read. :cheers:
> 
> How well is homosexuality accepted in Malaysia?
> 
> If Malaysia is to become a truly developed nation in the next decade, it would need to embrace all humans under one umbrella, so to speak.


Emm Im afraid to comment much on this..
But while it is illegal on paper, there are alot of open homosexuals here and almost none of them are ever being arrested/jailed/persecuted. 



isakres said:


> As for the Arabs beeing the same as Latins, well some studies have shown that Latin America, Latin Europe and the Whole Mediterranean Cultures (including Greeks, Turks and Arabs) are very expressive cultures, opposite to Eastern / Southeastern Asian and Nordic / Germanic Cultures that are classified as Reserved Cultures (talking about patterns of cultural behaviours).





Motul said:


> Yes, we're very "touchy touchy".. It's funny when I tried to give a cheek kiss to a Chinese girl her boyfriend almost beat me up, and she looked at me as if I had tried to rape her :lol:
> 
> I learned the lesson the hard way, never again XD


Interesting..on top of that, the "Macho" and... very close family ties, I think ?

I learn many things about Latin lifestyle from Telenovelass... like Rosalinda, Betty La Fea, Maria Mercedess, Mis Tres Herman , La Usurpadora etc :cheers:


----------



## Skyprince

Motul said:


> As for inequelity in the regions, that's Colombia's biggest flaw, and due mostly to history, geography (Colombia has an extremely difficult terrain, which left many areas isolated), and to being one of the most heterogenous societies on earth. The following map is very informative on the matter. Around 60% of Colombians live in the andean region, with a .43 GINI (comparable to Uruguay), while the rest live in much less favored regions.
> 
> It's in english, but it's easy to understand. GDP values are in Pesos, here's the equivalent in Dollars (nominal):
> 
> Zone 1-Andean: $7,500
> Zone 2-Caribbean: $4,100
> Zone 3-Northeastern: $8,300
> Zone 4-South: $3,100
> Zone 5- $2,500
> Zone 6- $3,100
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: NBI stands for poverty.


I never expected Northeastern Colombia to be that rich ( due to minerals ? ) but with the high inequality !? 

And Carribean coast only has "average" income ? I always thought Cartagena & Barranquilla the more developed cities in Colombia. 

The public spending, growth and inflation data for Colombia looks quite similar to Malayisa..


----------



## Federicoft

Restless said:


> And the low internet usage in Italy and Greece is indicative of a lack of reforms/improvements in their economies, and how they haven't taken advantage of the improved efficiencies that internet usage offers. It's also contributing to a future of negative GDP growth for them.


It is mainly indicative of different demographic structures or just plain wrong data.

According to the most recent study (1/2/2012), 74.5% of population between 11 and 74 has Internet access here.
http://www.tvdigitaldivide.it/tag/penetrazione-internet/


----------



## Motul

Skyprince said:


> I never expected Northeastern Colombia to be that rich ( due to minerals ? ) but with the high inequality !?
> 
> And Carribean coast only has "average" income ? I always thought Cartagena & Barranquilla the more developed cities in Colombia.
> 
> The public spending, growth and inflation data for Colombia looks quite similar to Malayisa..


The northeast is where most of the oil comes from, so that makes the figures higher than the rest.. However, as you noticed, wealth is very badly distributed.


----------



## Skyprince

Motul said:


> The northeast is where most of the oil comes from, so that makes the figures higher than the rest.. However, as you noticed, wealth is very badly distributed.


I see. Also maybe the small population in Northeastern Colombia. 

The exact same problem with Malaysia... most major cities here including Kuala Lumpur & suburbs look First-world and u immediately get the impression of a developed country and First-world lifestyles , but just 1 hour away from KL and in vast majority of rural area its really 3rd world with poor housing, open garbage everywhere etc. Quite a stark contrast :nuts: Malaysia Truly Asia..


----------



## Motul

But Malaysia's GINI isn't bad, right?


----------



## Restless

Just thought I'd add something here:

*China 2011*
There were 500million people mostly in the coastal areas of China with a GDP per capita (PPP) of at least $10000.

*China 2020*
It is likely that those 500million will all be at a minimum of $20000 which qualifies as upper middle-income.

And in just 8 of the major cities, there is likely to be 100million+ peoplw with GDP PPP values of $30000+. Note that each of these cities is individually larger than Singapore or Hong Kong.
Of course, it ignores the fact that there will still be 900million much poorer people in the interior of China, who are about 10-15years behind the coastal areas.

So whilst China as a whole will still be a middle-income country, a significant number of areas will be at developed country level.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

*China 2010*
China had 3 municipalities, 6 provinces and 1 autonomous region with GDP over US$ 5000 per capita. These being municipalities of Shanghai, Beijing and Tianjin, provinces of Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Guangdong, Liaoning, Shandong and Fujian and autonomous region of Inner Mongolia. All of the above have coasts except Beijing and Inner Mongolia.

These 10 combined have 494 million people. And 3541 milliard GDP. Average 7168 US$.

The whole rest of China has 846 million people. And 2386 milliard GDP. Average 2820 US$.

In 2010, China had 3 municipalities, 1 league, 1 prefecture and 17 prefecture level cities with per capita GDP over 10 000 US$. Out of these, 10 appear to be rich due to mining - the league, the prefecture and 9 prefecture level cities.

The remaining 9 are 
2 in Zhejiang - Ningbo and Hangzhou 
1 in Liaoning - Dalian
2 in Jiangsu - Suzhou and Wuxi
4 in Guangdong - Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Foshan and Zhuhai.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> *China 2010*
> China had 3 municipalities, 6 provinces and 1 autonomous region with GDP over US$ 5000 per capita. These being municipalities of Shanghai, Beijing and Tianjin, provinces of Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Guangdong, Liaoning, Shandong and Fujian and autonomous region of Inner Mongolia. All of the above have coasts except Beijing and Inner Mongolia.
> 
> These 10 combined have 494 million people. And 3541 milliard GDP. Average 7168 US$.
> 
> The whole rest of China has 846 million people. And 2386 milliard GDP. Average 2820 US$.
> 
> In 2010, China had 3 municipalities, 1 league, 1 prefecture and 17 prefecture level cities with per capita GDP over 10 000 US$. Out of these, 10 appear to be rich due to mining - the league, the prefecture and 9 prefecture level cities.
> 
> The remaining 9 are
> 2 in Zhejiang - Ningbo and Hangzhou
> 1 in Liaoning - Dalian
> 2 in Jiangsu - Suzhou and Wuxi
> 4 in Guangdong - Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Foshan and Zhuhai.


Just be careful about using Nominal versus PPP figures. There's a difference of more than 1.8

Also, the 2011 figures are between 8%-15% higher than the 2010 figures.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Just be careful about using Nominal versus PPP figures. There's a difference of more than 1.8


Ah, that.

In 2010, the range of nominal per capita GDPs was between 11238 of Shanghai municipality and 1953 of Guizhou province.

What was the range of PPP to Nominal ratios of the various provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions of China?

Out of the 9 prefecture level cities with nominal 2010 GDP over 10 000 US$ per capita, 6 are more populous than Hong Kong. These being Guangzhou, Suzhou, Shenzhen, Hangzhou, Ningbo and Foshan. Whereas Dalian, Wuxi and Zhuhai are less populous than Hong Kong.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

chornedsnorkack said:


> Ah, that.
> 
> In 2010, the range of nominal per capita GDPs was between 11238 of Shanghai municipality and 1953 of Guizhou province.
> 
> What was the range of PPP to Nominal ratios of the various provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions of China?
> 
> Out of the 9 prefecture level cities with nominal 2010 GDP over 10 000 US$ per capita, 6 are more populous than Hong Kong. These being Guangzhou, Suzhou, Shenzhen, Hangzhou, Ningbo and Foshan. Whereas Dalian, Wuxi and Zhuhai are less populous than Hong Kong.


Here: 



VECTROTALENZIS said:


> *GDP per capita PPP of China's administrative regions (2010)
> 
> Int dollars
> 
> Shanghai	19,279
> Beijing	19,246
> Tianjin	18,498
> Jiangsu	13,391
> Zhejiang	13,105
> Inner Mongolia	11,999
> Guangdong	11,337
> Liaoning	10,734
> Shandong	10,417
> Fujian	10	10,143
> Jilin	11	8,008
> Hebei	12	7,265
> Hubei	13	7,072
> Chongqing	6,993
> Shaanxi	6,876
> Heilongjiang	6,862
> Ningxia	6,807
> Shanxi	6,661
> Xinjiang	6,344
> Hunan	6,264
> Henan	6,195
> Qinghai	6,111
> Hainan	6,039
> Jiangxi	5,386
> Sichuan	5,368
> Anhui 5,293
> Guangxi	5,124
> Tibet 4,389
> Gansu	4,083
> Yunnan	3,992
> Guizhou	3,325*


----------



## Eurozone

balance on current account, trade balance are important indicator for using GDP(nominal).
Brazil - trade deficit, current account deficit continue over 5years,(2011 -55billion USD)
Greece - trade deficit, current account deficit continue over 17years(GDP rate 9-13%)
Spain, Portugal, Italy also chronic deficit(10year-13year),, France, UK, many east Europe also chronic deficit.. -- because of overrated currency. 
Germany, Japan(35year suplus), Switzerland, Netherland, Canada, Sweden, Norway, South korea(14year suplus).. - trade suplus,current account suplus... because of underrated currency. 
chronic deficit will result in collapse.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> Here:


Shanghai:
19279/11238=171,6%
Guizhou:
3315/1938=171,1%

These PPP numbers are derived from a single rate and are therefore worthless. My question was exactly what the range of PPP/Nominal rates is inside China?



> And in just 8 of the major cities


Which ones?

I count 3 municipalities and 6 prefecture level cities which satisfy the two requirements of nominal per capita GDP over 10 000 US$ and population larger than Hong Kong. 9 combined. Which 1 of the 9 is not one of the 8 major cities?


----------



## Jonesy55

Eurozone said:


> balance on current account, trade balance are important indicator for using GDP(nominal).
> Brazil - trade deficit, current account deficit continue over 5years,(2011 -55billion USD)
> Greece - trade deficit, current account deficit continue over 17years(GDP rate 9-13%)
> Spain, Portugal, Italy also chronic deficit(10year-13year),, France, UK, many east Europe also chronic deficit.. -- because of overrated currency.
> Germany, Japan(35year suplus), Switzerland, Netherland, Canada, Sweden, Norway, South korea(14year suplus).. - trade suplus,current account suplus... because of underrated currency.
> chronic deficit will result in collapse.


Australia has had a current account deficit every year for about 40 years I think.....


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

Eurozone said:


> balance on current account, trade balance are important indicator for using GDP(nominal).
> *Brazil - trade deficit, current account deficit continue over 5years,(2011 -55billion USD*)
> Greece - trade deficit, current account deficit continue over 17years(GDP rate 9-13%)
> Spain, Portugal, Italy also chronic deficit(10year-13year),, France, UK, many east Europe also chronic deficit.. -- because of overrated currency.
> Germany, Japan(35year suplus), Switzerland, Netherland, Canada, Sweden, Norway, South korea(14year suplus).. - trade suplus,current account suplus... because of underrated currency.
> chronic deficit will result in collapse.


Where did you get this from? Brazil traditionally has trade surpluses. In 2011, for example, it was a 30 billion dollar one.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Shanghai:
> 19279/11238=171,6%
> Guizhou:
> 3315/1938=171,1%
> 
> These PPP numbers are derived from a single rate and are therefore worthless. My question was exactly what the range of PPP/Nominal rates is inside China?
> 
> 
> Which ones?
> 
> I count 3 municipalities and 6 prefecture level cities which satisfy the two requirements of nominal per capita GDP over 10 000 US$ and population larger than Hong Kong. 9 combined. Which 1 of the 9 is not one of the 8 major cities?


The last ICP was in 2005 only measured prices in major cities. Therefore the PPP values in rural areas and in the interior were probably higher.

I said "just 8 of the major cities". This means that there can be more.


----------



## Eurozone

brazil tradebalance +20.1billionUSD(2010) +29.7billionUSD(2011)

but overrated real result in current account balance deficit.(it continue almost 10years)

brazil - current account balance : -47.4billionUSD(2010), -55.0billionUSD(2011) ,,


----------



## Eurozone

this is current account balance(GDP rate)
2009 2010 2011
Japan +2.8% +3.4% +1.9%
Germany +4.9% +5.1% +5.9%
Austria +2.7% +2.6% +3.1%
Finland +2.7% +1.5% +1.7%
S.Korea +5.2% +3.2% +2.7%
Luxemburg +6.7% +7.8% +5.1%
Netherlands+4.6% +5.3% +6.2%
Sweden +7.4% +6.8% +6.8%
Swiss +12.0% +12.6% +10.9%
Norway +13.0% +13.8% +13.4%
China +6.0% +5.8% +5.7% 
---- this is suplus country(underrated currency)


----------



## Eurozone

2009 2010 2011
France -1.9% -2.2% -2.3%
Italy -3.2% -3.3% -2.8%
UK -1.3% -2.2% -1.6%
Canada -2.8% -2.7% -2.8%
Australia -4.4% -2.3% -1.9%
Czech -1.0% -1.9% -0.8%
Greece -14.7% -11.4% -10.5%
Hungary -7.0% - 0.3% -0.3%
Iceland -22.2% -2.2% -0.9%
Ireland -3.0% -0.3% +0.7%
Mexico -0.7% -0.9% -1.4%
NZ -2.9% -3.2% -5.3%
Portugal -12.6% -10.3% -10.3%
Poland -2.2% -2.4% -3.2%
Spain -9.7% -5.5% -5.5%
Brazil -1.5% -2.2% -2.4%
India -2.8% -3.2% -3.0%
--- this is deficit country(overrated currency)


----------



## Eurozone

current account balance
Iceland Deficit -2006(-23.8%) 2007(-16.3%) 2008(-21.2%) 2009(-22.2%)
Greece Deficit -2006(-13.7%) 2007(-11.3%) 2008(-14.5%) 2009(-14.7%) 
..... these country suffer economic crisis..
greece must Throw out euro. Euro is overrated in comparison with greece economy.
2011 greece GDP(nominal) : 27,875USD
but reality is about 16,000USD-19,000USD(presume 0% account deficit)
2011 portugal GDP(nominal) 22,800USD
reality is about 12,000$-15,000$(presume 0% account deficit)
2011 norway GDP(nominal) 96,591$
reality is about 135,000$-160,000$(presume 0% account deficit)


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> I said "just 8 of the major cities". This means that there can be more.


And I asked, which 8 do you mean?

Beijing municipality and adjoining Tianjin municipality combined have 32,55 million people.

Shanghai municipality and adjoining Suzhou prefecture level city combined have 33,49 million people.

Adjoining Guangzhou and Foshan prefecture level cities combined have 19,9 million people.

Are all these 6 among the 8 you meant?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> And I asked, which 8 do you mean?
> 
> Beijing municipality and adjoining Tianjin municipality combined have 32,55 million people.
> 
> Shanghai municipality and adjoining Suzhou prefecture level city combined have 33,49 million people.
> 
> Adjoining Guangzhou and Foshan prefecture level cities combined have 19,9 million people.
> 
> Are all these 6 among the 8 you meant?


1. Beijing 20
2. Tianjin 12
3. Guangzhou 13
4. Shenzhen 10
5. Foshan 7.2
6. Shanghai 23
7. Suzhou 10
8. Hangzhou 9

Population: 100million+

===
You can find lots of other cities with a Nominal GDP Per Capita of $10K+ which is about $18K on a PPP basis. Note that these are old figures from 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._prefecture-level_divisions_by_GDP_per_capita


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> 1. Beijing 20
> 2. Tianjin 12
> 3. Guangzhou 13
> 4. Shenzhen 10
> 5. Foshan 7.2
> 6. Shanghai 23
> 7. Suzhou 10
> 8. Hangzhou 9
> 
> Population: 100million+
> 
> ===
> You can find lots of other cities with a Nominal GDP Per Capita of $10K+ which is about $18K on a PPP basis. Note that these are old figures from 2010
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._prefecture-level_divisions_by_GDP_per_capita


Thanks - it was Ningbo which you did not list among the 8.

So, in addition to the 6 I listed, also Shenzhen and Hangzhou.

These 8 with combined population of 105,1 million.

As I said, these 8 and Ningbo meet the criteria of 2010 GDP over US$10K and more people than Hong Kong. 3 more prefecture level cities meet the GDP over 10K not attributed to mining, but have fewer people than Hong Kong - namely Dalian, Wuxi and Zhuhai.

Also I am unsure about what the reason is for the wealth of Weihai.

The prefecture level cities whose wealth may be attributed to mining are:

Ordos
Karamay
Dongying
Daqing
Jiayuguan
Wuhai.

Also rich due to mining are:

Alxa League
Haixi prefecture.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Thanks - it was Ningbo which you did not list among the 8.
> 
> So, in addition to the 6 I listed, also Shenzhen and Hangzhou.
> 
> These 8 with combined population of 105,1 million.
> 
> As I said, these 8 and Ningbo meet the criteria of 2010 GDP over US$10K and more people than Hong Kong. 3 more prefecture level cities meet the GDP over 10K not attributed to mining, but have fewer people than Hong Kong - namely Dalian, Wuxi and Zhuhai.
> 
> Also I am unsure about what the reason is for the wealth of Weihai.
> 
> The prefecture level cities whose wealth may be attributed to mining are:
> 
> Ordos
> Karamay
> Dongying
> Daqing
> Jiayuguan
> Wuhai.
> 
> Also rich due to mining are:
> 
> Alxa League
> Haixi prefecture.


I think we're getting bogged down in the details, but the point that I was making was that significant parts of China will likely be at developed nation level or at upper-middle income levels.

This should raise income levels everywhere, due to the increased investment and trading opportunities that this creates. Indeed, I would expect Southeast Asia to especially benefit because China is really closeby.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> I think we're getting bogged down in the details, but the point that I was making was that significant parts of China will likely be at developed nation level or at upper-middle income levels.
> 
> This should raise income levels everywhere, due to the increased investment and trading opportunities that this creates.


Spotting patterns in details:
how come Dongguan is so poor between Guangzhou and Shenzhen?


Restless said:


> Indeed, I would expect Southeast Asia to especially benefit because China is really closeby.


Which will be the most popular neighbours for trade and investment?

Outer Mongolia?
North Korea?
Vietnam?
Laos?
Myanmar?
India?
Bhutan?
Nepal?
Pakistan?
Afghanistan?
Tajikistan?
Kyrgyzstan?


----------



## Motul

Tibet! :crazy:


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Spotting patterns in details:
> how come Dongguan is so poor between Guangzhou and Shenzhen?
> 
> 
> Which will be the most popular neighbours for trade and investment?
> 
> Outer Mongolia?
> North Korea?
> Vietnam?
> Laos?
> Myanmar?
> India?
> Bhutan?
> Nepal?
> Pakistan?
> Afghanistan?
> Tajikistan?
> Kyrgyzstan?


Guangzhou is the established political capital of the province which has 100M+ people, so all the universities and industries have clustered around there.

Shenzhen was literally a new city created in the past 30years, which was known as the richest and most progressive, liberal and advanced city for much of this time. So it has always attracted many of the best and brightest.

The thing to note is that these two cities are only 100km apart from each other, and Dongguan is smack in the middle.

So where can Dongguan position itself? It just gets the spillover from GZ and SZ.

===
*Outer Mongolia*
With all the mining projects being undertaken to feed Chinese demand, they're projected to jump from one of the poorest to one of the richest countries in the world in 10-15years.

You can do your own analysis for each of the other countries, as it will be useful for you to know what to expect in the next 10years, and where you want to position yourself.


----------



## patchay

Restless said:


> I think we're getting bogged down in the details, but the point that I was making was that significant parts of China will likely be at developed nation level or at upper-middle income levels.
> 
> This should raise income levels everywhere, due to the increased investment and trading opportunities that this creates. Indeed, I would expect Southeast Asia to especially benefit because China is really closeby.


I think ASEAN benefited alot.... example, Malaysia's bilateral total trade with China reached more than US$90 bil last year, becoming the single largest trading partner from ASEAN, followed very closely by Singapore, then Thailand and Indonesia. 

And we know China needs alot of palm oil and LNG. And as consumers, I think we need almost everything from China - including vegetables, fruits, etc (not sure whether that is a good thing, though) :colgate:

Just like the US to South American countries, China has become the "da ge" (big brother) to other Asian economies.

And interestingly, residents of China has become (our) no.1 foreigners in making Malaysia their 2nd home under the "Malaysia, My 2nd Home" program (http://www.mm2h.gov.my/ ). Of course the same thing can be observed in Singapore and I believe the numbers there are even greater!


----------



## Motul

Is china likely to be conquering/colonizing any of it's smaller neighbors in the future? :?


----------



## patchay

Motul said:


> Is china likely to be conquering/colonizing any of it's smaller neighbors in the future? :?


Did the US conquered its smaller southern neighbors? :jk:


----------



## Motul

Some of them, indirectly, through supporting coup d'etats thus installing puppet governments that catered to US interests. But remember USA carries the "flag of democracy" and "liberty for all" so they wouldnt do anything directly, unless of course it's to "free" a nation from their "oppressive regime" and "weapons of mass destruction" :crazy:.


----------



## Motul

China on the other hand.. Im not to sure what their foreign policy would be like if/when they were/are the world superpower and hegemony.


----------



## Restless

Motul said:


> Is china likely to be conquering/colonizing any of it's smaller neighbors in the future? :?


I think it's unlikely.

Korea/Taiwan/Japan all have population densities similar to the populated areas of China, so land shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Plus China can trade for the imports that it needs, which is far cheaper than a war.

===
However, I do think Mongolia might become an appendage to China, as there are only 3million Mongolians whilst there are 6million Chinese citizens of Mongolian descent.

The Inner Mongolia region in China has 25million people who are over twice as rich as their Outer Mongolian counterparts. It also has established mining, manufacturing and technology industries. On the other side is empty Siberian Russia.

So in the future, China will probably account for most of the imports/exports, investment flows and also people movements in Mongolia.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Guangzhou is the established political capital of the province which has 100M+ people, so all the universities and industries have clustered around there.
> 
> Shenzhen was literally a new city created in the past 30years, which was known as the richest and most progressive, liberal and advanced city for much of this time. So it has always attracted many of the best and brightest.
> 
> The thing to note is that these two cities are only 100km apart from each other, and Dongguan is smack in the middle.
> 
> So where can Dongguan position itself? It just gets the spillover from GZ and SZ.


Prefecture-level cities in Yangtze delta get rather more spillover:

Jiaxing - 9976
Changzhou - 9946
Zhenjiang - 9496
Nanjing - 9642
Shaoxing - 9420

whereas Pearl River delta somehow is NOT trickling down:

Zhongshan - 8000
Dongguan - 7237.

So what is up?


----------



## Restless

Motul said:


> China on the other hand.. Im not to sure what their foreign policy would be like if/when they were/are the world superpower and hegemony.


I'm not sure either.

It depends on how the internal politics plays out, as you've got the same sort of spread of views as you see in the USA. But the arguments are normally in private behind closed doors and rarely spill into the public domain.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> Prefecture-level cities in Yangtze delta get rather more spillover:
> 
> Jiaxing - 9976
> Changzhou - 9946
> Zhenjiang - 9496
> Nanjing - 9642
> Shaoxing - 9420
> 
> whereas Pearl River delta somehow is NOT trickling down:
> 
> Zhongshan - 8000
> Dongguan - 7237.
> 
> So what is up?


Dongguan is basically a backwater which is not a very attractive compared with those other places

I've been there.


----------



## Skyprince

Motul said:


> But Malaysia's GINI isn't bad, right?


Its one of the worst in Asia... but quite "average" by Latin American standard. 

Anyway, all these pics were taken by myself in my hometown *Shah Alam* city , a suburbia town 30 km outside KL.. 
All these locations are within 2 km from my house 

It also shows the road I use every day to work and nearest shopping mall from my house  To be honest I think Shah Alam city is already "Fully developed" with the kind of living standard & lifestyle comparable to developed countries.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

As of 2010:

Outer Mongolia
population 2,75 million
per capita GDP US$ 2267
total GDP 6,12 milliards

Tibet Autonomous Region
population 3,00 million
per capita GDP US$ 2558
total GDP 7,6 milliards

Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region
population 24,71 million
per capita GDP US$ 6994
total GDP 172,4 milliards

Baotou prefecture level city
population 2,65 million
per capita GDP US$ 13803
total GDP 36,4 milliards

Ordos prefecture level city
population 1,55 million
per capita GDP 20402
total GDP 39,0 milliards

Alxa League
population 0,196 million
per capita GDP US$ 19656
total GDP around 3,8 milliards.


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> As of 2010:
> 
> Outer Mongolia
> population 2,75 million
> per capita GDP US$ 2267
> total GDP 6,12 milliards
> 
> Tibet Autonomous Region
> population 3,00 million
> per capita GDP US$ 2558
> total GDP 7,6 milliards
> 
> Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region
> population 24,71 million
> per capita GDP US$ 6994
> total GDP 172,4 milliards
> 
> Baotou prefecture level city
> population 2,65 million
> per capita GDP US$ 13803
> total GDP 36,4 milliards
> 
> Ordos prefecture level city
> population 1,55 million
> per capita GDP 20402
> total GDP 39,0 milliards
> 
> Alxa League
> population 0,196 million
> per capita GDP US$ 19656
> total GDP around 3,8 milliards.


I'm not sure what you want to show here


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> I'm not sure what you want to show here


That the population of Outer Mongolia is small compared to Baotou and the rest of Inner Mongolia, and therefore modest purchases of minerals which China can easily afford can cause large changes in per capita GDP of Outer Mongolia.

As the economy of mainland China grows, while Taiwan is densely settled it is small. What has happened to the military budget of People´s Revolutionary Army compared to that of the rebel forces on Taiwan?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> That the population of Outer Mongolia is small compared to Baotou and the rest of Inner Mongolia, and therefore modest purchases of minerals which China can easily afford can cause large changes in per capita GDP of Outer Mongolia.
> 
> As the economy of mainland China grows, while Taiwan is densely settled it is small. What has happened to the military budget of People´s Revolutionary Army compared to that of the rebel forces on Taiwan?


The People's Liberation Army is spending somewhere between $110-$150 Billion, while Taiwan is spending about $9-$10 Billion. And that disparity is becoming larger every day.

Personally I think it is likely that Taiwan will be peacefully incorporated as a Special Administrative Region like Hong Kong, once China becomes much more wealthy and reassuring to Taiwan.


----------



## Motul

Meanwhile USA spends $700 billion :crazy:

I think they want to make sure that if they're gonna lose their status as the economic superpower, atleast they will remain the world's military superpower for years to come.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

In 1980 the per capita GDP of China was US$ 205 - and that of Vietnam was US$ 514.

Both China and Vietnam started economic reforms in early 1980s.

Why has China been so much more successful?


----------



## Motul

Because they are a way bigger market which attracts much more investment that Vietnam^^


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

chornedsnorkack said:


> Prefecture-level cities in Yangtze delta get rather more spillover:
> 
> Jiaxing - 9976
> Changzhou - 9946
> Zhenjiang - 9496
> Nanjing - 9642
> Shaoxing - 9420
> 
> whereas Pearl River delta somehow is NOT trickling down:
> 
> Zhongshan - 8000
> Dongguan - 7237.
> 
> So what is up?


The whole city of Dongguan consists of factories, it's more like a factory suburb to Guangzhou/Shenzhen.


----------



## Jonesy55

Motul said:



> I think they want to make sure that if they're gonna lose their status as the economic superpower, atleast they will remain the world's military superpower for years to come.


The USSR thought that way too :laugh:


----------



## Kenwen

The case of Dongguan is more complicated, Dongguan is transforming its economy under it policy of "change the birds of the cage", so these 3 years, it had some of the lowest growth since the foundation of this prefecture level city, in 3-5 years time we will see the effect, Dongguan will move to the next level to become higher value industrial hub and know how center, otherwise it will becomes another detroit once the inland province has better infra and much cheaper labour.


----------



## Jonesy55

Is Dongguan the city with the enormous empty shopping mall?


----------



## Restless

Motul said:


> Meanwhile USA spends $700 billion :crazy:
> 
> I think they want to make sure that if they're gonna lose their status as the economic superpower, atleast they will remain the world's military superpower for years to come.


It'll last for at least the next decade.

Then in 2020, I think it'll look like:

USA: $600 Billion
China $300 Billion

But the USA has global commitments, whilst China just has to worry about the Western Pacific and the Indian Ocean.


----------



## Restless

Motul said:


> Because they are a way bigger market which attracts much more investment that Vietnam^^


Vietnam started about 7? years after China, plus they've been less ambitious/ruthless with their economic reforms.

They also didn't have a Chinese diaspora of over 60million people overseas, who were welcomed when they brought billions in investment along with their skills to China.

The other thing is that I see Vietnam as more xenophobic, whereas people in Shanghai for example, are notorious for being very enthusiastic and open-minded about anything that is foreign.


----------



## Restless

Jonesy55 said:


> Is Dongguan the city with the enormous empty shopping mall?


Yup. The developer was about thinking 15years too far ahead, as those 8million people just aren't wealthy enough yet.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> Yup. The developer was about thinking 15years too far ahead, as those 8million people just aren't wealthy enough yet.


The bigger problem is that the mall was built at a spot inconvenient to access by road or rail.

Where in Dongguan are the shops which do work? Even poor factory workers have to shop somewhere, considering they are not peasants, and I understand many private industrial enterprises in Dongguan do not bother with iron rice bowls/factory canteens and shops either.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

Restless said:


> They also didn't have a Chinese diaspora of over 60million people overseas, who were welcomed when they brought billions in investment along with their skills to China.


How have the diaspora contributed? Have there been any overseas Chinese that have moved to the mainland?


----------



## fbeavis

Motul said:


> Meanwhile USA spends $700 billion :crazy:
> 
> I think they want to make sure that if they're gonna lose their status as the economic superpower, .


Won't happen


----------



## Motul

fbeavis said:


> Won't happen


US wont keep it's military supremacy? I agree.


----------



## poponoso

Occit said:


> Definitively Panama will reach the 20.000 US$ per inhabitant before Argentina.


*And what about the rest of facts to be considered? 

Uruguay before Argieland????*


----------



## oliver999

Restless said:


> Dongguan is basically a backwater which is not a very attractive compared with those other places
> 
> I've been there.


dongguan city is 100% urban, and very rich.


----------



## null

Dongguan GDP per capital 2010: $10,022 (or ￥66,344) (Nominal)

http://news.qq.com/a/20110112/001471.htm


----------



## Occit

poponoso said:


> *And what about the rest of facts to be considered?
> 
> Uruguay before Argieland????*


Panama before all of them, how much we'll bet?


----------



## Motul

CUBA before the rest.. :yes:


----------



## fbeavis

I wouldn't hold my breath on any country outside of Europe becoming developed within the next 20 years (except for Costa Rica) Incompetent and corrupt civil servants, along with political and social instability is what characterizes most countries of South America and Asia. All it takes to set a South American country back is another figure like Hugo Chavez or Evo Morales, and all of these countries are vulnerable.

Within the following 10-15 years the following countries will have achieved the rank of developed nation:

-Croatia (already there for the most part)
-Latvia
-Lithuania
-Poland (already there for the most part)

Portugal, Italy, and Spain will be falling further behind due to economic instability and unfavorable demographic changes.

It will be interesting to see if Belgium can remain intact for another 10-15 years, if not I'm not so sure that Wallonia will be a highly-developed country. Scotland may be a developing country if they separate from the U.K, rather than a developed country as it is now within the U.K


----------



## Motul

^^Lol. I can tell you look at the Latin American situation from an outside (and far away) perspective.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

fbeavis said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath on any country outside of Europe becoming developed within the next 20 years (except for Costa Rica) Incompetent and corrupt civil servants, along with political and social instability is what characterizes most countries of South America and Asia. All it takes to set a South American country back is another figure like Hugo Chavez or Evo Morales, and all of these countries are vulnerable.


South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore somehow did become developed. When did they? And how did they look like in the last 20 years before becoming developed?


----------



## Jonesy55

fbeavis said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath on any country outside of Europe becoming developed within the next 20 years (except for Costa Rica) Incompetent and corrupt civil servants, along with political and social instability is what characterizes most countries of South America and Asia. All it takes to set a South American country back is another figure like Hugo Chavez or Evo Morales, and all of these countries are vulnerable.
> 
> Within the following 10-15 years the following countries will have achieved the rank of developed nation:
> 
> -Croatia (already there for the most part)
> -Latvia
> -Lithuania
> -Poland (already there for the most part)
> 
> Portugal, Italy, and Spain will be falling further behind due to economic instability and unfavorable demographic changes.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if Belgium can remain intact for another 10-15 years, if not I'm not so sure that Wallonia will be a highly-developed country. Scotland may be a developing country if they separate from the U.K, rather than a developed country as it is now within the U.K


How do you figure out that Scotland will become a developing country? :laugh:


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> The bigger problem is that the mall was built at a spot inconvenient to access by road or rail.
> 
> Where in Dongguan are the shops which do work? Even poor factory workers have to shop somewhere, considering they are not peasants, and I understand many private industrial enterprises in Dongguan do not bother with iron rice bowls/factory canteens and shops either.


The mall is pretty far from Shenzhen or Guangzhou, so you really have to make a special trip by car. And the local people in Dongguan aren't wealthy enough yet, to afford a car and to spend at the mall.

So it's more street markets and smaller lower-end shopping areas in Dongguan.


----------



## Restless

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> How have the diaspora contributed? Have there been any overseas Chinese that have moved to the mainland?


At the moment, there is a big sucking sound as overseas Chinese are being deployed to China as bilingual business executives that have also worked overseas.

The following paper outline the interaction in terms of foreign investment, skills/technology transfer etc etc

http://lab.geog.ntu.edu.tw/lab/r401...stment, and Economic Development in China.pdf

I think my family is fairly typical, as they left about 30years ago, but everyone is now scattered across the US, Canada, UK, France, Malaysia, Singapore, Australia, as well as all those still in Hong Kong and mainland China.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Restless said:


> And the local people in Dongguan aren't wealthy enough yet, to afford a car and to spend at the mall.
> 
> So it's more street markets and smaller lower-end shopping areas in Dongguan.


So, few of the local people are actually living at walking or cycling distance of South China Mall, and few find the South China Mall convenient to reach by bus, trolleybus etc....

Does Dongguan have any bigger lower-end shopping malls which the locals could conveniently reach by bus, commuter train etc.?


----------



## Restless

chornedsnorkack said:


> So, few of the local people are actually living at walking or cycling distance of South China Mall, and few find the South China Mall convenient to reach by bus, trolleybus etc....
> 
> Does Dongguan have any bigger lower-end shopping malls which the locals could conveniently reach by bus, commuter train etc.?


There aren't actually any shops in the shopping mall lol

As for the other question, I didn't spend much time there so I don't much.

I wasn't impressed, and I can see why all the people with money move to Guangzhou or Shenzhen


----------



## Skyprince

How about the quality of housing & average home size in all emerging economies ? 

House size in Malaysia is one of the biggest in Asia. The people here tend to invest alot on housing.


----------



## Motul

Inm Colombia its getting smaller.. 8-9 meters smaller.. and prices are up 10% annually. Also, ppl in Colombia live mostly in apartments.


----------



## haikiller11

Skyprince said:


> How about the quality of housing & average home size in all emerging economies ?
> 
> House size in Malaysia is one of the biggest in Asia. The people here tend to invest alot on housing.


Does having bigger houses make Malaysia more developed than Japan or Singapore? No! So the answer for your question is "no".


----------



## ukiyo

chornedsnorkack said:


> South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore somehow did become developed. When did they? And how did they look like in the last 20 years before becoming developed?


More about the Asian Tigers:



> The Asian Tigers are 4 countries that used Japan’s successful economic model to model their own economies. They are South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore. All these countries had similar conditions to Japan and were ideal for this economic plan. Japan and these countries had low incomes, had little resources, and were very overpopulated. The one thing that these countries have to their advantage is that they are located on the Pacific Ocean. This makes them ideal for an export oriented economy because the Pacific Ocean is a great trade route for them. After Japan’s success with this method these four Asian Tigers tried the same export oriented method of industrialization. This was a great success for these countries. By the 1980’s they had become economic powers and by the 1990’s they were even competing with Japan.


The reason they are successful is because of their own hard work, working many hours and putting their children through very tough schooling. You can also make a case for colonization, at least in the form of infrastructure and education but that is too complex so I won't get into it.


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

ukiyo said:


> More about the Asian Tigers:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason they are successful is because of their own hard work, working many hours and putting their children through very tough schooling. You can also make a case for colonization, at least in the form of infrastructure and education but that is too complex so I won't get into it.


Is China growing this way as well?


----------



## Jonesy55

Eurozone said:


> big company average starting salary(Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, Posco, LG...etc) - 31,421$ per year(2011)
> middle company average starting salary - 29,106$ per year(2011)
> small company average starting salary - 20,758$ per year(2011)
> foreign company average starting salary - 26,852$ per year(2011)
> public enterprise average starting salary - 25,672$ per year(2011)
> 
> it is jobkorea data.
> 
> but USA, UK, Swizerland's(developed country) starting salary average is about 40,000$.


:lol: $40,000 is not the average starting salary in the US or UK, in both countries close to half of all full-time workers earn less than $40,000, you will find many workers in both countries earning less than $25,000.


----------



## Federicoft

fbeavis said:


> A country that is considered *(1)* unworthy of credit and liable to default is a country that can no longer afford to *(2)* pay pensions, pay salaries, or invest in infrastructure expansion and maintenance. It makes all the difference in the world. As it is Italy has a bloated civil service, a tax-evading population, too many *(3)* money losing state-owned enterprises, and a cradle-to-grave welfare system that a poor country can ill afford. It is also one of about 30 or so countries in the world where *(4)* the population is actually declining. The good news for people outside of Italy is that everything will soon be available for next to nothing as Italy is basically going to have to sell everything and anything to foreigners for hard currency to "keep the lights on" so to speak. Italy is on the brink of becoming an economic basket case. The Italian government in Rome will soon have to cede any pretence of legitimacy and sovereignty to foreign investors and organizations such as the World Bank.


:laugh:

You seem to know very little about the country. The number of factually incorrect statements in your post is astonishing.
Since I don't have the will or the time to spend my day disproving your nonsense, I'll limit myself to just four points:

(1) as for now, there are no particular problems in getting credit. Yields are the lowest since early 2011 and comparable to those of countries such as China or Australia. I don't see anyone claiming such countries are "unworthy of credit".

(2) pensions don't lay on the state balance directly, but on a 400 billion euro-worth fund which is projected to stay solvent for the next 50 years.

(3) there are only three major state-owned enterprises left: money-making Eni, Enel and Finmeccanica.

(4) the population is growing fast. It was 56,993,000 in 2002 and it is 60,626,000 now, i.e. one of the two or three fastest growing countries in Europe. You didn't manage to get even this basic figure right. 

The major problems in the economy are the large debt stock and the relatively low productivity/high labor inflexibility which lead to the sluggish growth of the last ten years. So nothing really related to what what you said, and nothing to do with the developed status of a country.
Check your facts better before contributing to the entropy of the universe.


----------



## Kenwen

Restless said:


> The mall is pretty far from Shenzhen or Guangzhou, so you really have to make a special trip by car. And the local people in Dongguan aren't wealthy enough yet, to afford a car and to spend at the mall.
> 
> So it's more street markets and smaller lower-end shopping areas in Dongguan.


U have no idea what Dongguan is like, the true local 1.7 million people with Dongguan Hukou are all rich and wealthy, just the factory workers that came from other provinces lowers the average. A small town like ChangAn can afford to have huge shopping markets in the 90s, Dongguan has more houses with cour yard than any chinese cities, even Beijing and Shanghai are no match to this. Dongguan also has the largest Golf course in China, something like 30sqkm.
And Dongguan has more 5 stars hotels than any other chinese cities as well. During the weekend, all those 5 star hotels would be fill up by people to YUM CHA, u have no idea the spending power of the Dongguan locals.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Kenwen said:


> U have no idea what Dongguan is like, the true local 1.7 million people with Dongguan Hukou are all rich and wealthy, just the factory workers that came from other provinces lowers the average.


How many people have Shenzhen hukou?
And how many illegal immigrants in Dongguan came from other prefecture-level cities within the province of Guangdong?


Kenwen said:


> A small town like ChangAn can afford to have huge shopping markets


Changan is the biggest town in China and the world. And the second biggest town is the neighbouring Humen.


----------



## fbeavis

Federicoft said:


> :laugh:
> 
> You seem to know very little about the country. The number of factually incorrect statements in your post is astonishing.
> Since I don't have the will or the time to spend my day disproving your nonsense, I'll limit myself to just four points:
> 
> (1) as for now, there are no particular problems in getting credit. Yields are the lowest since early 2011 and comparable to those of countries such as China or Australia. I don't see anyone claiming such countries are "unworthy of credit".


European Central Bank steps in as Italian yields hit 7%

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203513604577144081994770326.html

Lets look at the 10 year yields of some other G7 countries:

USA: 2%
UK: 3.75%
Germany: 2%
Canada: 2%
Japan: 1%
France: 2.91%

Clearly there isn't a whole lot of confidence in Italy's ability to meet its obligations!




Federicoft said:


> (2) pensions don't lay on the state balance directly, but on a 400 billion euro-worth fund which is projected to stay solvent for the next 50 years.


Really? Why did the government of Italy need to change its pension scheme? 

*According to the European Commission’s 2009 Ageing Report, pension payments cost the government 14 per cent of gross domestic product in 2007, the highest rate in the EU.*

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d3ec9142-2027-11e1-9878-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1m6Ebi6Os



Federicoft said:


> (3) there are only three major state-owned enterprises left: money-making Eni, Enel and Finmeccanica.


Yet Italy has dumped €4.9 billion since 1998 in money-losing Alitalia. How many bank bailouts is Italy going to need? 



Federicoft said:


> (4) the population is growing fast. It was 56,993,000 in 2002 and it is 60,626,000 now, i.e. one of the two or three fastest growing countries in Europe. You didn't manage to get even this basic figure right.


" For example,
the population of Italy, currently 57 million, is projected to decline to 41 million by 2050" source: The United Nations

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/execsum.pdf

Italians are increasingly old and Italy's fertility rate is below the replacement rate. 

I could post some more evidence and links, but the conclusion is foregone: RIP Italy


----------



## fbeavis

JohnnyFive said:


> *
> The Case for Scottish Independence:*
> 
> - We currently generate 9.4% of UK wealth with 8.4% of population and put more to the UK Treasury than we get back (GERS).
> 
> - We will be able to make decisions that benefit Scotland to grow our economy instead of UK policies which benefit London and South East of England.
> 
> - We will be able to get a sovereign parliament that is elected by the people of Scotland and has a mandate in Scotland (unlike having nearly 30 years out of the last 50 with a UK Government which Scotland did not vote for).
> 
> - We will be not be forced to go into any illegal war (UN).
> 
> - We will be free from nuclear weapons (SNP)
> 
> - Scotland will no longer be nuclear dump site for waste from outside Scotland (UKAEA selected the Highlands and Islands and the Scottish Uplands as offering the most suitable granite formations for a high-level nuclear waste)
> 
> - we have best renewable energy potential of the EU with 25% of EU offshore wind; 25% of EU tidal; and 10% of EU wave power
> 
> - We have the largest oil and gas reserves in the EU with as much still in the ground as already extracted (> £1 trillion resource) in Scottish waters and which are allocated under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea
> 
> - We have 69% of UK coal reserves
> 
> - The Scotch whisky industry alone accounts for 25% of UK food and drink exports ( worth > £4 billion in exports)
> 
> - We have the 70% of UK fish landings and the largest/best fishing grounds in Europe which have been bargained away by the UK in advantages for London and South East England (Landings)
> 
> - We will build a 'oil fund' like Norway for future generations
> 
> - We receive less in Scotland in rural development funding (EU Common Agricultual Policy) from the EU due to us being within the UK.
> 
> - We do not have an independent seat in the UN and EU or any other international organisation as our views are represented by the UK (and are currently underrepresnted in the EU).
> 
> - We will become a fairier society and not be hamstrung by far right polices which our country never voted from Conservatives and increasingly Lib Dems and Labour.
> 
> - We will not be subjected to privatisation of NHS, social care or education being pursued by UK Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives parties.
> 
> - UK debt = £1.4 Trillion backed by > £1.2 Trillion in known oil/gas resources in UK waters. The Scottish share of this debt = £120 Billion but backed with  > £1 Trillion of known oil/gas resources in Scottish waters.
> 
> - The UK Government has also recently acknowledged that Scotland have been almost £20 billion better off had it been independent for the last thirty years
> 
> - We will use all our wealth in Scotland instead of sending to UK Treasury we can help to increase quality of life, life expectancy, literacy, education and social cohesion to match other small northern European countries (Denmark, Norway etc).
> 
> - Small northern European countries like Norway, Denmark, Finland, and even still Ireland and Iceland, beat the UK in UN HDI (Human Development Index) and quality of life indicators (Quality of Life Index).
> 
> - Scotland would become a wealthier country and is projected to rise to 6th in the world among OECD countries, whereas we are currently 16th as part of UK. (the UK will drop to 22nd without Scotland)
> 
> :cheers2:




Rather than just swallow SNP talking-points why won't most Scots vote for independence? Because they know what will become of Scotland if it does and it won't mirror the happy scenarios above. Scottish independence is just a pipe dream.


----------



## Federicoft

Hmmm. Let's see...



fbeavis said:


> European Central Bank steps in as Italian yields hit 7%
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203513604577144081994770326.html
> 
> Lets look at the 10 year yields of some other G7 countries:
> 
> USA: 2%
> UK: 3.75%
> Germany: 2%
> Canada: 2%
> Japan: 1%
> France: 2.91%
> 
> Clearly there isn't a whole lot of confidence in Italy's ability to meet its obligations!


Yields of 10-years bonds are currently at 5.5%
You cherry-picked the highest figure of the last 12 months: good job.



> Really? Why did the government of Italy need to change its pension scheme?


It has raised pension age in line with growing life expectancy, just like many other governments in the rest of the world. 
Of course whatever suits your agenda is the proof the country is going down the drain.



> Yet Italy has dumped €4.9 billion since 1998 in money-losing Alitalia. How many bank bailouts is Italy going to need?


Alitalia was privatized in 2008. 



> " For example,
> the population of Italy, currently 57 million, is projected to decline to 41 million by 2050" source: The United Nations
> 
> http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/execsum.pdf


Perhaps I wasn't clear: the Italian population is over 61 million _as we speak_. The study you are quoting didn't even manage to predict correctly the population in four years, let alone 40 years. Besides, immigration patterns make these predictions pretty much useless.



> Italians are increasingly old and Italy's fertility rate is below the replacement rate.


True. However, this has been entirely offset by high immigration.



> I could post some more evidence and links, but the conclusion is foregone: RIP Italy


Next time just make sure to post real evidence instead of a medley of half- baked truths and desultory thoughts.


----------



## LtBk

An aging population is something most of the developed world including the US is going to deal with in next 10-20 years.


----------



## Aaronj09

We're not really debating the developed status of Italy are we? Italy has a healthy industrial base in the north of the country which is why it is not doomed, unlike Greece.


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

Aaronj09 said:


> We're not really debating the developed status of Italy are we? Italy has a healthy industrial base in the north of the country which is why it is not doomed, unlike Greece.


+1

Many people tend to forget this. Italy just needs a reform in their archaic labor and pension laws, which will put it back on the map.


----------



## BringMe

eklips said:


> Do you have any statistic for that? :dunno: When I was in Colombia it appeared to me that most people lived in houses.


Well is different in big cities like Medellin,Bogota,Cali,Cartagena even Barranquilla and santa marta people likes to live more in apartments cities like Medellin don't have lot of space and the government is protecting the mountains and stopping urban expansion for example you can find in Medellín this type of neighborhoods with lots of buildings but the city government don't like this type of "urbanism" so everything is changing

*Looks Horrible for me*


----------



## Gorky

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> +1
> 
> Many people tend to forget this. Italy just needs a reform in their archaic labor and pension laws, which will put it back on the map.


Also greece and the otherones!


----------



## Restless

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> +1
> 
> Many people tend to forget this. Italy just needs a reform in their archaic labor and pension laws, which will put it back on the map.


Don't forget about education, healthcare and also taxation


----------



## fbeavis

Restless said:


> Don't forget about education, healthcare and also taxation


It's probably too late for PIGS


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

Restless said:


> Don't forget about education, healthcare and also taxation


True, but already the labor and pension laws reform will be a major boost. The reforms are these two are long due.


----------



## eklips

BringMe said:


> Well is different in big cities like Medellin,Bogota,Cali,Cartagena even Barranquilla and santa marta people likes to live more in apartments cities like Medellin don't have lot of space and the government is protecting the mountains and stopping urban expansion for example you can find in Medellín this type of neighborhoods with lots of buildings but the city government don't like this type of "urbanism" so everything is changing
> 
> *Looks Horrible for me*


Isn't that the poblado area, ie one of the wealthiest in Medellin? 

I generally found when I was there that apartments were more common in middle and upper class zones while in working class (ie the majority) places houses were much more common. But then that was just an impression.


----------



## Iluminat

^^Well it looks quite chaotic, architecture is perhaps not tacky but buildings don't really fit with one another, they have different designs and face different sides. Architecture is modernist but I don't see any planning either modernist or traditional.


----------



## Motul

There's better pics.


----------



## eklips

Iluminat said:


> ^^Well it looks quite chaotic, architecture is perhaps not tacky but buildings don't really fit with one another, they have different designs and face different sides. Architecture is modernist but I don't see any planning either modernist or traditional.


Honestly I don't think it looks that bad, lack of planning has sometimes given us some grand historical cities.

However, when I was there it seemed most people lived in houses not apartments, which is why it'd be interesting to see if there are statistics available on the subject in Colombia. And it even seemed to me that these buildings tended to be surrounded by houses, an example on this photo I took near the city center:


----------



## Motul

Those houses look old. The tendency is for people to move from houses to apartments, and alot of those houses are turned into commercial area or demolished.

Maybe your right about the social class aspect. For example, in Bogota, most people in the north, western and central areas live in apartments, that's why bogota is considered a dense city in spite of it's 8 million inhabitabts. However, the southern part is significantly poorer and it's densely packed mostly with 2 story brick houses..


----------



## Yuri S Andrade

BringMe said:


> Well is different in big cities like Medellin,Bogota,Cali,Cartagena even Barranquilla and santa marta people likes to live more in apartments cities like Medellin don't have lot of space and the government is protecting the mountains and stopping urban expansion for example you can find in Medellín this type of neighborhoods with lots of buildings but the city government don't like this type of "urbanism" so everything is changing
> 
> *Looks Horrible for me*


You must hate Monaco.


----------



## GaFe

eklips said:


> Honestly I don't think it looks that bad, lack of planning has sometimes given us some grand historical cities.
> 
> However, when I was there it seemed most people lived in houses not apartments, which is why it'd be interesting to see if there are statistics available on the subject in Colombia. And it even seemed to me that these buildings tended to be surrounded by houses, an example on this photo I took near the city center:


In Bogota, 65% of homes are appartments. ...


----------



## BringMe

eklips said:


> Honestly I don't think it looks that bad, lack of planning has sometimes given us some grand historical cities.
> 
> However, when I was there it seemed most people lived in houses not apartments, which is why it'd be interesting to see if there are statistics available on the subject in Colombia. And it even seemed to me that these buildings tended to be surrounded by houses, an example on this photo I took near the city center:


Omg that's so close to my building! well those houses are old believe me you can see now and that part of the city is middle class so you can find people still living in old houses but today everyone likes to live more in buildings you can find apartment for more than 100 millions that's probrably the lowest price

*same area:*


----------



## pesto

Restless said:


> Don't forget about education, healthcare and also taxation


Agree with this but the change in the laws is EASY. The problem is to change the minds of the people (rich, poor and in between) to accept the change toward a more productive approach to life.

It's long been known that you are better off with 1M educated, modern people in a wasteland than 1M backward people in a beautiful, modern city.


----------



## isakres

Iluminat said:


> ^^Well it looks quite chaotic, architecture is perhaps not tacky but buildings don't really fit with one another, they have different designs and face different sides. Architecture is modernist but I don't see any planning either modernist or traditional.


Im not sure if it looks chaotic but the place in the pic is actually very nice and cozy with its curvy narrow streets surrounded with amazing trees and lush gardens.

Most of the buildings use those red bricks and I found them very similar in design and architechture (its like a landmark in some Colombian towns / cities). Dont get why you say they dont really fit.


----------



## xrtn2

2016 Chile

2019 Argentina

2023 Malaysia

2025 Brazil

2033 Colombia

2040 Indonesia

2050 China


----------



## snicket

I think China will be developed before Brazil and it must happen by 2025


source: http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/index.php


----------



## VECTROTALENZIS

xrtn2 said:


> 2016 Chile
> 
> 2019 Argentina
> 
> 2023 Malaysia
> 
> 2025 Brazil
> 
> 2033 Colombia
> 
> 2040 Indonesia
> 
> 2050 China


Indonesia before China?? :nuts:
China has already surpassed Indonesia a couple of years ago...

China will become developed around 2030, since China is where South Korea was in about 1980/81 in terms of development. South Korea got developed around 2000. So in about 20 years more I think - around 2030 sounds quite reasonable. I am not surprised if China surpass Brazil and Colombia in the next 15 years, the rate of growth in China is higher.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

xrtn2 said:


> 2016 Chile
> 
> 2019 Argentina
> 
> 2023 Malaysia
> 
> 2025 Brazil
> 
> 2033 Colombia
> 
> 2040 Indonesia
> 
> 2050 China


IMF 2010 data:
Guyana 2923
Indonesia 2974
Ukraine 3013
...
Algeria 4366
China 4382
Macedonia 4483
...
Bulgaria 6356
Colombia 6360
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 6381
...
Botswana 8117
Malaysia 8423
Gabon 8779
Kazakhstan 9009
Argentina 9131
Mexico 9522
...
Latvia 10680
Brazil 10816
Equatorial Guinea 11045
Lithuania 11046
Chile 11827
Uruguay 11998

IMF prophesies for 2016, dated September 2011:
Guyana 4442
Indonesia 5429
Ukraine 5750
...
Algeria 5528
China 8523
Macedonia 6638
...
Bulgaria 9797
Colombia 8817
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 8241
...
Botswana 11565
Malaysia 11573
Kazakhstan 19664
Argentina 12858
Mexico 13052
...
Latvia 15946
Brazil 16635
Equatorial Guinea 14057
Lithuania 18280
Chile 17114
Uruguay 19362

So - who agrees that Uruguay shall sustain faster growth than Chile?


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## eklips

GaFe said:


> In Bogota, 65% of homes are appartments. ...


Interesting, though if they had taken into account surrounding municipalities such as Soacha or Chia wouldn't the proportion of houses be a bit higher?

Also, isn't Bogota a bit more of an exception, with apartments being much more common than in the rest of Colombia?


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## megacity30

eklips said:


> Interesting, though if they had taken into account surrounding municipalities such as Soacha or Chia wouldn't the proportion of houses be a bit higher?
> 
> Also, isn't Bogota a bit more of an exception, with apartments being much more common than in the rest of Colombia?


In most countries around the world, the more populous the city, the more people live in apartments / condo units. 

Of course, the USA is one of the exceptions in this regard.


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## Pradable

chornedsnorkack said:


> Latvia 15946
> Brazil 16635
> Equatorial Guinea 14057
> Lithuania 18280
> Chile 17114
> Uruguay 19362
> 
> So - who agrees that Uruguay shall sustain faster growth than Chile?


Actually the 2016 FMI projections are:

Argentina $21.452
Chile $20.186
Uruguay $19.514

Argentina is having the biggest growth i guess, but the 3 countries are growing really fast, so who knows? Probably urugguay can surpass the 2 countries... Anyway i'm not too fond with the FMI projections, since they're changing their annually projections like every month for latinamerica, they starte with a really conservative growth rate, and they elevate their projections like every month.


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## BaiatuVesel

xrtn2 said:


> 2016 Chile
> 
> 2019 Argentina
> 
> 2023 Malaysia
> 
> 2025 Brazil
> 
> 2033 Colombia
> 
> 2040 Indonesia
> 
> 2050 China



China can't be developed because it's not a democracy , there is no freedom of speech , etnhic minorities are being executed etc . Developed means in the first place democracy , rule of law and personal freedoms not skyscrapers , we don't worship buildings . In every african country there are skyscrapers and mansions and that doesn't make them developed . 

Indonesia it's that country where they execute christians and gay people ? 
In Malayesia people get arrested because they celebrate Valentine's Day .

Only Chile and Argentina can be considered developed or on the road to be developed .


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## megacity30

In Asia, one could optimistically guess-timate the following half-century timelines for countries (each continent subdivision in parentheses could be a continent in its own right) in Asia to become developed nations:-

By 2021: Russia (North Asia / EurAsia)

By 2026: Malaysia (South-East Asia) and Lebanon (West Asia)

By 2031: Turkey(West Asia / EurAsia) 

By 2036: Thailand (South-East Asia)

By 2041: Kazakhstan (Central Asia), Azerbaijan (West Asia), and China (East Asia) 

By 2051: Maldives (South Asia) and Iran (West Asia / Middle East; as long as human rights are at a developed level by then)

By 2061: Armenia (West Asia / EurAsia), Bhutan (South Asia), India (South Asia), Indonesia (South-East Asia), Philippines (South-East Asia) and Sri Lanka (South Asia)


There are dozens of other developing Asian countries but I don't see them becoming developed nations within the next 50 years.


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## VECTROTALENZIS

megacity30 said:


> In Asia, one could optimistically guess-timate the following half-century timelines for countries (each continent subdivision in parentheses could be a continent in its own right) in Asia to become developed nations:-
> 
> By 2021: Russia (North Asia / EurAsia)
> 
> By 2026: Malaysia (South-East Asia) and Lebanon (West Asia)
> 
> By 2031: Turkey(West Asia / EurAsia)
> 
> By 2036: Thailand (South-East Asia)
> 
> By 2041: Kazakhstan (Central Asia), Azerbaijan (West Asia), and China (East Asia)
> 
> By 2051: Maldives (South Asia) and Iran (West Asia / Middle East; as long as human rights are at a developed level by then)
> 
> By 2061: Armenia (West Asia / EurAsia), Bhutan (South Asia), India (South Asia), Indonesia (South-East Asia), Philippines (South-East Asia) and Sri Lanka (South Asia)


Why Thailand before China? China already has higher HDI than Thailand...


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## VECTROTALENZIS

BaiatuVesel said:


> China can't be developed because it's not a democracy , there is no freedom of speech , etnhic minorities are being executed etc . Developed means in the first place democracy , rule of law and personal freedoms not skyscrapers , we don't worship buildings . In every african country there are skyscrapers and mansions and that doesn't make them developed .
> 
> Indonesia it's that country where they execute christians and gay people ?
> In Malayesia people get arrested because they celebrate Valentine's Day .
> 
> Only Chile and Argentina can be considered developed or on the road to be developed .


South Korea and Taiwan weren't democracies either when they developed, they became democracies just before they became developed. Did you know that Singapore isn't so democratic either, their freedom of speech is abysmal at best, yet they have one of the highest standards of living the world.
Developed means standard of living and not democracy in the first place. I haven't said that skyscrapers makes a country developed, it's the standard of living.


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## VECTROTALENZIS

megacity30 said:


> There are dozens of other developing Asian countries but I don't see them becoming developed nations within the next 50 years.


I believe that Vietnam will become the next asian tiger the next 30 years.


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## Erran

BaiatuVesel said:


> China can't be developed because it's not a democracy , there is no freedom of speech , etnhic minorities are being executed etc . Developed means in the first place democracy , rule of law and personal freedoms not skyscrapers , we don't worship buildings . In every african country there are skyscrapers and mansions and that doesn't make them developed .
> *
> Indonesia it's that country where they execute christians and gay people ?
> In Malayesia people get arrested because they celebrate Valentine's Day .*
> 
> Only Chile and Argentina can be considered developed or on the road to be developed .


Indonesia and Malaysia are democratic countries, and information you have is bullsh*t. As both were ranked not that bad in term of democracy by Economist Intelligence Unit 2011 Democracy Index, 60th and 71st respectively. Chile (35th) and Argentina (51) shared the same group as "Flawed Democracies" with both Indonesia and Malaysia. Suggest you to update what really is going on outside Latin America.

PS: Spore was ranked 81st yet it's fully Developed Country now, what's your theory explaining this anomaly?


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## BaiatuVesel

VECTROTALENZIS said:


> South Korea and Taiwan weren't democracies either when they developed, they became democracies just before they became developed.


Ok , so we can't forecast the year in wich they will be developed until we see political changes in those countries . When South Korea was not a democracy it was not developed either . 

_Indonesia and Malaysia are democratic countries, and information you have is bullsh*t_

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/glob...ntines-day-arresting-unmarried-couples/48659/


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## Erran

BaiatuVesel said:


> Ok , so we can't forecast the year in wich they will be developed until we see political changes in those countries . When South Korea was not a democracy it was not developed either .
> 
> _Indonesia and Malaysia are democratic countries, and information you have is bullsh*t_
> 
> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/glob...ntines-day-arresting-unmarried-couples/48659/


:lol:
Do you know that each country has different norms?


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