# What makes a big city feel small?



## milwaukee-københavn (Jun 21, 2006)

I think what makes a city feel large is more attitude than urban planning. Milwaukee is the same size as Copenhagen. Milwaukee feels small because it is very balkanised and you end up seeing the same people in certain parts of the city. Copenhagen is very integrated (granted, there isn't that large of a racial minority population, either) and one person can find similar and different things to do all over the city. There isn't a black part of town or a white part of town and as such, people spread themselves out more.


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

What makes a big city feel small

1. narrow streets
2. few or no skyscrapers
3. style of architecture
4. green areas (parks) that separate neighbourhoods
5. type of people living in a city
6. (maybe, but not necessary) lack of an intensive car traffic due to autofree zones in a city center

But mostly I think it's architecture and urbanism that decides if a city looks huge or small. Example: first impression of London, Paris, Madrid and Budapest may be that they are of the same size, but they're not. High density, huge buildings, broad boulevards and traffic make these cities look similar in size.

Amsterdam, due to minimalistic architecture that has something to do with the city's calvinistic past, looks much smaller than Lille in France, which is full of huge, rich ornamented buildings.

On the other hand cities like Rotterdam and Brussels visually look much bigger than they are. In the first case skyscrapers might be the reason, in the second one - huge XIX century buildings and broad boulevards full of cars and pedestrians.

And of course people and their behaviour, ethnic diversity, makes a city look big or small.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

London looks 'small' from the medieval street plan, there are no grand vistas or boulevards like Paris, Rome, Beijing. There arent any high or central enough hills or even public accessed buildings for an overview of the metropolis. 

However people still feel it is huge somehow, probably because of the the massive crowds everywhere you go, the neverending buildings, mix of ethnicities, and large buildings shouldering over the small ones when you look up, make it all seem bigger. 


Also the tube map _reminds_ people of the size of the city, considering it only really covers the north side of the river:


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

also a dense city with buildings hemming in the streets leaves no space for a vista. The city may seem vast from above but seem human scaled from below.

from above:









from below:


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

The outer boroughs of NYC tend to act like they never even joined depending on what area you go to.


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## fooddude (Feb 2, 2007)

anything in SF


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## monkeyronin (May 18, 2006)

yin_yang said:


> another big part is the city's obsession with traffic lights, making traffic realllly slow and giving it more of a small-town pace and vibe.


Really? whenever I see fast moving cars speeding down the street, I think "suburb". Cars backed up in jams just screams urban, as it typically creates more noise, and is an indicator of higher density, more people and narrower roads/less car based environment.

And on a side note, some people seem to be confusing our easy-going vibe with small town vibe. If thats what you associate it with, then thats fine, but when I think of a small town vibe - I think of emptiness/inactivity (not too many people out or very much street life), provincial/conservative attitudes, homogeneity and such. Neighbourhoods like Kensignton, while being very relaxed and easy-going, are completely the opposite of the above mentioned typical small town.


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## Cristovão471 (May 9, 2006)

Spread out popuation

No highrises

A labyrinth of streets.


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## Sukkiri (Feb 8, 2007)

ch1le said:


> simple.
> Open planning makes a city feel small.
> Dense, perimetral quarters with impressive corner buildings make a city look huge.


Agreed, Auckland in New Zealand is a perfect example of this. It is one of the largest cities in the world in terms of urban sprawl (with around 1.5 million residents), which is why if you are in the suburbs it feels like you are in some provincial town. There is little high density development outside the city core. Sydney is a bit different, although we have sprawl, our large suburbs (e.g Chatswood, Bankstown, Paramatta, etc) have very high density development, hence why Sydney feels 'bigger'. High density always makes a city feel big, it has the 'hustle and bustle' and the people.


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## SkyLerm (Nov 26, 2005)

The transportation system of the city.


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## haze (Jan 4, 2006)

*What makes a small city feel big?*

here we go!!


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

i think foe i big city to feel small it has to have narrow streets, low rise buildings and a lack of public transport and lots of parks...


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## ch1le (Jun 2, 2004)

did someone say Rotterdam looks big?


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

HK can be an example of this. The city has around 7 million but HK's land area is small compared to other major cities. In fact only a small % of the territory's land is urban. Because of the small area, we have to build our buildings up especially residential ones. 

There are a few rural areas in HK mostly in The New Territories and The Outlying Islands and you can reach most of them in less than an hour. It takes around an hour driving without traffic from the city centre (Central) to reach the border crossing at Lo Wu. Less if you take the train.

The place is small that alot of its residents go outside the territory during their vacation.


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## EtherealMist (Jul 26, 2005)

the spliff fairy said:


> However on the streets below its built on the oldest part of the 2000 year old city. Despite being heavily bombed in the war many medieval streets remain, as does the medieval streetplan. Its thus the oldest and newest part of the city simultaneously:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its places like this that really want to go to London. I'd kill to have a few pints in one of these old pubs.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Its not that popular a part of London to be honest, by day its crammed with 400,000 people in the square mile, and yes, they all wear suits and walk into each other yelling for taxis, with a constant grind of traffic.
However by night or weekend the place is understandably deserted and its a real pleasure walking round and looking at the architectural mix which you can appreciate far better. A summer evening is near perfect as the buildings are still lit up dramatically at dusk, and the sky is still blue at 11pm.

Ill buy ya a pint :cheers:


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## rocky (Apr 20, 2005)

having lived in paris and london,
london feels so small compared to paris because once you exit the core center, the density is very low with 2 storeys buildings and parks everywhere

while paris is packed by higher buildings for kilometers, it has a quasi claustrophobic feel..

In the end London is more pleasant for me. But i think from my personnal experience and map studies that paris is more populated in the urban area so that might explain that theire is alot more buildings for kilometers and kilometers..7 mil vs 10?

sorry to do a paris vs london but its relevant to the topic


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## monkeyronin (May 18, 2006)

WANCH said:


> HK can be an example of this. The city has around 7 million but HK's land area is small compared to other major cities. In fact only a small % of the territory's land is urban. Because of the small area, we have to build our buildings up especially residential ones.


But due to that sheer density, quantity & height of buildings, and large crowds, Hong Kong, at least to me, feels like it would be one of the world's largest cities.


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## OperateOnMe (Jan 27, 2007)

After visiting Santiago de-Compostela, Vigo, Barcelona and Madrid in Spain and comparing them to other cities throughout the world from London (home), Birmingham, Paris, Amsterdam, Cairo, Hong Kong, Sao Paulo...

I would have to say its probably a mix of the following:

1. Lanscape (the more unlevel, large ridges or with big rivers makes it larger)
2. Sizes of Buildings (inc. spaces to see distant dense buildings, pictures of London above, illustrate this)
3. Crowds of people (especially those that look serious and busy)
4. Sizes of roads (and quick mix of them)
5. Traffic and mix of transport mechanisms

;-)


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## Elsongs (Oct 18, 2006)

When you randomly bump into friends or people you know...people say Los Angeles is huge and sprawling, but I run into people I know all the time.


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

WANCH said:


> HK can be an example of this. The city has around 7 million but HK's land area is small compared to other major cities. In fact only a small % of the territory's land is urban. Because of the small area, we have to build our buildings up especially residential ones.
> 
> There are a few rural areas in HK mostly in The New Territories and The Outlying Islands and you can reach most of them in less than an hour. It takes around an hour driving without traffic from the city centre (Central) to reach the border crossing at Lo Wu. Less if you take the train.
> 
> The place is small that alot of its residents go outside the territory during their vacation.


I feel the opposite. I feel Hong Kong is way bigger than what it actually is because of the pace of the city, people always walk so fast there, I always associate fast pace with a big city, that's why (certain parts of )Toronto feels smaller than its actual size.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Ok, perhaps we can make up those critirias on real examples. Which of those three pictures make a city looking bigger or smaller? And why? Or isn't there a difference?


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## monkeyronin (May 18, 2006)

First one looks to have some pretty grand buildings, so it would probably be in a larger city. 

Second one is very dense and urban, but could be anything from a city 100,000 to a city of 10,000,000, as you'll find cities in Europe in that population range with similar architecture and density.

The third looks to be a midsized city (or at least a suburb of a larger one). Nice amount of modern highrises, but there isn't much denser development around that small cluster, and the urban area seems to drop off to rural rather quickly, so low density + small area = small city.


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## Cristovão471 (May 9, 2006)

What city is that last one?


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## AMS guy (Jun 27, 2003)

All these 3 pics is Vienna, I think.


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

yeah, lol.


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## Giorgio (Oct 9, 2004)

I don't agree with the point of saying lack of high rises makes a city feel small.
Look at Athens, it has no high rises but feels MASSIVE. 
I think density makes a city seem big and hence a sparse city seems small.


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## uA_TAGA (May 23, 2007)

Not only density makes a city seem big but also high rises makes a city seem big ... sometimes high rises makes a city seem bigger sometimes density 

*in Athens there is no high rises* but seem big...also biggest in Greece whats the population? i think *4 mil* right ? 
*the population of Izmir is abt 3 mil and there are high rises* and i think *Athens seem bigger than Izmır* ...


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

AMS guy said:


> All these 3 pics is Vienna, I think.


You are right. Congratulations 

The first picture shows the area around the city hall right next to first district (that is part of the UNESCO world heritage), the second picture shows the center of the 1st district with the gothic cathedral in its midth and the last picture shows the "Donaucity" that also includes the UN seat (most prominently the IAEO). The Donaucity is about 3-4 km away from the 1st district.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

monkeyronin said:


> First one looks to have some pretty grand buildings, so it would probably be in a larger city.
> 
> Second one is very dense and urban, but could be anything from a city 100,000 to a city of 10,000,000, as you'll find cities in Europe in that population range with similar architecture and density.
> 
> The third looks to be a midsized city (or at least a suburb of a larger one). Nice amount of modern highrises, but there isn't much denser development around that small cluster, and the urban area seems to drop off to rural rather quickly, so low density + small area = small city.


Thanks for your analysis, your arguments sound well though out. 

Its likely that it depends very much where exactly you are in a city for the big or small feel of it.

PS: The third picture probably did not draw the area appropriately, but it shouldnt anyway 
The Donaucity is not as isolated from the dense city as the picture above makes it looking like.


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

Just visit Hamburg and Berlin and you'll know it. :lol:


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## ckm (Apr 7, 2006)

rocky said:


> having lived in paris and london,
> london feels so small compared to paris because once you exit the core center, the density is very low with 2 storeys buildings and parks everywhere
> 
> while paris is packed by higher buildings for kilometers, it has a quasi claustrophobic feel..
> ...


I live in Paris and I don't feel a "megapolis feel". Living inside the Périphérique (I live in the 2e and work in the 3e, so it's a 15 minutes distance), Paris is really small and human-size, you can almost walk to everywhere in a reasonable time (I can walk to République, Montmartre, Le Marais, Les Halles, Concorde, le Quartier Latin, etc.). Also Paris is not overcrowded, it's very well designed (it's easy to go from one point to another) and the traffic is always more or less fluid. I only feel Paris is a big city when I take the Périphérique, when I see La Défense from Neuilly (amazing view) or the kilometers of low-density housing (for instance Boulogne, St. Cloud, St. Germain, etc.).

For me London has a more big-city feel, since you can walk for milles between townhouses; or Madrid, which is really chaotic, it's much more overcrowded than Paris, the traffic is hideous and there are "Périphériques" and urban motorways everywhere (at least 4 concentric motorways and 12 radial).


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Paris simply goes on nearly forever with that dense traditional city scape. Its amazing...

When I was there I had to say that it felt from a very personal stance considerably larger than Vienna. But not necessarily because Vienna would lack quarters with buildings of comparable size. It was not so much the buildings... I think it was also the fact that the famous buildings are spread out over the town, at least within the older parts of it.

Could it be that with Vienna having a real cluster where half of the sights are put together it gets a far smaller feel? Somehow of being compact?

The other point was, while its easy in Vienna to find smallish nice cozy places all over the inner districts, often even in the direct vicinity of the impressive empirial buildings, I had the feel this is not the case in Paris. I might be wrong and might have missed those gems but apart from the Jewish quarter I only saw something in this way more towards the peripherique. Somewhere in the north if I remember right. And actually around the exit of the catacombs. ...










This picture in my eyes just shows a very large cities. My two cents.


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## Rapid (May 31, 2004)

with those three vienna pics, the second looks the biggest
-less trees for one


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

ckm said:


> I live in Paris and I don't feel a "megapolis feel". Living inside the Périphérique (I live in the 2e and work in the 3e, so it's a 15 minutes distance), Paris is really small and human-size.


In fact you live in the dead center of Paris, no traffic a little number of inhabitants I know that I live in the 7th district, it is a dead district for tourist. 
Now Parisian live and work in oulter arrondissement and inner suburbs 



> Paris is really small and human-size, you can almost walk to everywhere in a reasonable time (I can walk to République, Montmartre, Le Marais, Les Halles, Concorde, le Quartier Latin, etc.).


All those districts exept Republique and les Halles are tourist district parisain don't go here.
Les Halles is not overcrowed, when did you go here ? the sunday ?



> Also Paris is not overcrowded, it's very well designed (it's easy to go from one point to another) and the traffic is always more or less fluid


Did you take the subway or the RER on workday ? (The subway of Paris is most used in western Europe)
Did you take the car in the outer arrondissements...



> the kilometers of low-density housing (for instance Boulogne, St. Cloud, St. Germain, etc.).


20,000 inhabitants per km² in Boulogne, it is not that I call low density.











> Madrid, which is really chaotic, it's much more overcrowded than Paris, the traffic is hideous and there are "Périphériques" and urban motorways everywhere (at least 4 concentric motorways and 12 radial)


Yes and Paris has 3 beltways and 9 radial freeways, and the traffic of Madrid is not worse than in Paris.
O.K it is worse than the traffic in the 2th and 3rd the arrondissements without cars.

Effectivelly when you live near the Louvres and you work near the Marais Paris look klike at a small city.
But when you live in the 14th arrondissement and you work at la Defense and do shopping near Saint Lazare, Paris has "megapolis feel".


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

Rapid said:


> There is a single core in Hamilton (Jackson Square), whereas Toronto has various ones (Yonge/Dundas, University/Front, Spadina/Dundas, Yonge/Bloor).


Hmmm, so what you must be relating is Toronto's being a disintegrated town, coz I can't think of any entity in the universe containing multiple cores. Were I to follow your context correctly, however, then I'd (lol!) never categorize Spadina and Dundas WEST as a core (moreover, what a putrid-, scummy-looking intersection to ascribe to some metropolis . . . )

Toronto's downtown bears some skip-stop patterned patchiness, which contributed to my feeling of forever being in the burbs no matter my whereabouts in town there . . .


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Sen said:


> I feel the opposite. I feel Hong Kong is way bigger than what it actually is because of the pace of the city, people always walk so fast there, I always associate fast pace with a big city, that's why (certain parts of )Toronto feels smaller than its actual size.


That's the only difference. HK may look like a giant metropolis its density and bustling activity. But if you lived there all your life, you would feel that your city is small and would like to travel outside even to nearby areas like Shenzhen or Macao. And HK's area lack that of Shanghai, Seoul, Tokyo or other Asian cities. Even Taipei may look bigger than HK area wise.

Jakarta on the other hand may be one of the largest cities in South East Asia. But with its mostly low-rise structures and laid-back lifestyle, you won't feel like it's a giant megalopolis. The city more reminds me of mid-size US cities like Houston, Atlanta and to some extent, Los Angeles rather than the NY feel.


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## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

HK has a very compicated geography. I remember going to different parts of town and thinking that while the development was extremely dense, it wasn't very "deep" (you could walk from the water to the hillside in a brief amount of time in many places). 

I thought that Seoul felt a lot bigger than HK, simply because Seoul's development exploded out in every direction, and it was usually quite dense.


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## LMCA1990 (Jun 18, 2005)

small density. In the case of Miami, the whole city is mostly low density except for the downtown:

downtown-









cutler bay (where i lived in for 8 yrs)-


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## pwalker (Feb 19, 2007)

Seattle has inceasingly been feeling like a big US city, but pedestrians still respect the stoplights. Very little jaywalking, if you do see it, it most likely is from out of towners. Two reasons...SPD has always cracked down on it but it also seems to be a "laid-back" attitude that exists among Seattle residents. However, IMHO, there are certain situations where it shoud be perfectly acceptabe...such as no traffic coming...dah!. Perhps SPD could direct their efforts to more important problems! I know there are other major US cities that crack down J-walking, but Seattle seems be at the forefront. Kind of a "small-town" attitude in my opinion.


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## silly thing (Aug 9, 2004)

Hong Kong is so special in this situation, in terms of population and density, yes it is a big city, but in terms of area, it is not


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## CITYofDREAMS (Jan 20, 2007)

^^ WOW!! HK is just phenomenal... I agree big city but yet small.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

minato ku said:


> In fact you live in the death center of Paris, no traffic a little number of inhabitants I know that I live in the 7th district, it is a death district for tourist.
> Now Parisian live and work in outer arrondissement and inner suburbs


That would be dead center, not death center.

I quite agree with Minato Ku, the hypercentre of Paris (arrondissements 1 to 8) is not heavily populated, and some parts of it can feel quite dead, especially near the Louvre. From my personal experience, I am not a native Parisian, but each time I lived in Paris it was in the hypercentre. I used to think that anything beyond these 8 arrondissements was dead and uninteresting, until the day when I returned from the US I had to stay with my sister who was living in the north of the 18th arrondissement near the Périphérique freeway. I thought I would arrive in a boring suburban area, and much to my surprise I discovered one of the liveliest and most crowded place of Paris where I would never have set foot if it hadn't been for my sister.

When I took the metro there (Simplon station on line 4), what amazed me was how the station was always full, whereas further down the line in the hypercentre of Paris the stations were often dead. Porte de Clignancourt, Simplon, Marcadet-Poissonnier were ultra-crowded stations, with lots of Black people, whereas as you soon as you arrive in the hypercentre (Château d'Eau, Réaumur-Sébastopol, Etienne Marcel) the stations are desert. This is especially true at night. In that area where my sister lived, you could eat out until 3am, some shops were open almost all night long, whereas in the hypercentre of Paris everything is closed past 8pm, except the bars and nightclubs.

Since then, I've experienced the same in other outer arrondissements (such as around Gambetta in the 20th arrondissement). For those who are planning to visit Paris, my advice is this: take any metro line till its end. You'll see, when the metro leaves the hypercentre of Paris, suddenly everything changes, the crowds look different (more immigrants), and it's more lively and crowded. It's always a strange feeling for me. Everytime I travel outwards from the centre it feels like there's a whole world lying beyond that I am totally unaware of.

Once I took a suburb train between Versaille and La Défense at 8pm on a Saturday evening. I thought the train would be empty, well, it was actually full of people, most of them immigrants, and a lot of the passengers were Sri-Lankans. What are Sri-Lankan immigrants doing in a train from Versaille to La Défense on a Saturday evening?? Where do they come from (the train came from St Quentin en Yveline) and where do they live? After so many years living here on and off, I still feel so ignorant about this sprawling metropolis.


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## Good (Jun 20, 2006)

Well you are a bit exaggerating the differences between the inner and the outer arrondissements. The areas around the Grands Boulevards, Bastille, Beaubourg or Saint-Michel are more lively than the 15th or 16th arrondissements. What you described is the typical atmosphere of North-east Paris (which I love) around La Chapelle, Belleville, Ménilmontant, Place de Clichy, Jaurès, Avron, etc, and that you can find in suburbs like Montreuil for instance.
The areas around the Louvre, the Stock Exchange, the Sentier, Madeleine, Saint-Lazare, is a businness and retailing area, so no wonder it is more "dead" at night, and is less populated in general.
The weird thing about Paris is that cultural and night life is quite spread out with distincts "micro-districts" and night spots located in weird areas (Bagnolet, Porte de Pantin, 13th) you will never come across by chance if you stick to the well-known parts of town. Or on the contrary, some hot spots are located in over-touristy places (fetichist nights in a banal building in Montmartre for instance :nuts: )
This is what makes the city "feel big" I think. There is no central entertainment area where everybody ends up going out, you can spend the nights in so many different neighborhoods.


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

Good said:


> Well you are a bit exaggerating the differences between the inner and the outer arrondissements. The areas around the Grands Boulevards, Bastille, Beaubourg or Saint-Michel are more lively than the 15th or 16th arrondissements.


That's maybe because you don't know the 15th and 16th arrondissements well. I can tell you the main street of the old Auteuil village in the 16th arrondissement feels more lively than the touristy Grands Boulevards (except perhaps at night). In the 15th arrondissement the Parc André Citroën is busier than the more centrally located Luxembourg Gardens on a sunny week-end day.

Againt, it's easy to underestimate the outer arrondissements. One has to explore each and every area to really know the place. Take the 16th arrondissement for instance. Parts of it are quite dead, but Auteuil is very lively (and personally one of my favorite neighborhoods in Paris).

This is the Parc André Citroën in the 15th arrondissement on a Sunday:


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## Good (Jun 20, 2006)

I live in the 15th arrondissement, near the Parc Georges Brassens. In my particular neighborhood, it is lively at day, very mixed in its population (Blacks, Arabs and more and more Chinese, they even opened a Tang frères two months ago  ), there are a few bars and good restaurants, but I cant say it's lively at night. The Grands Boulevards may be touristy in some parts, but at 2 pm there are still a lot of people in cafes and pubs, queues in front of some famous nightclubs (Rex, Pulp, etc), people going out from the last movie session at midnight, and Turkish-Pakistanese-African food shops open around Strasbourg-Saint-Denis. I dont think you can see that in the 15th or the 16th at night, where nightlife is much more relaxed.


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## Phil (Aug 23, 2002)

I guess you mean 2am.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

tablemtn said:


> HK has a very compicated geography. I remember going to different parts of town and thinking that while the development was extremely dense, it wasn't very "deep" (you could walk from the water to the hillside in a brief amount of time in many places).
> 
> I thought that Seoul felt a lot bigger than HK, simply because Seoul's development exploded out in every direction, and it was usually quite dense.


That's the reason why alot of HK is dense. If HK had more land, I doubt you will see the amount of density and height that the city has today.

Seoul is bigger than HK both area and population. But the city also has alot of highrises especially housing estates and tower blocks. Seoul is also mountaineous like LA.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Although Seoul is a very large city with over 10 million people, it feels like a small city because it is very spread out, and the urban core is not wall to wall skyscrapers. Lowrises exist just across the mountain from the traditional core, while Gangnam's Tehran-no doesn't have very tall buildings besides COEX.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

brisavoine said:


> In the 15th arrondissement the Parc André Citroën is busier than the more centrally located Luxembourg Gardens on a sunny week-end day.
> This is the Parc André Citroën in the 15th arrondissement on a Sunday:


It is exactly the same in the parc of Bercy in the 12th arrondissement.


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