# Berlin - Goodbye Palace of the Republic



## hkskyline

For the Stadtschloss reconstruction project, go to this thread:

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction - "Humboldt-Forum"*

*Berliners rally for communist-era 'palace' *

BERLIN, Jan 16, 2006 (AFP) - One of communist East Germany's ugliest but best loved buildings has a date with a wrecking ball in the coming weeks, sparking an outpouring of nostalgia for still cherished aspects of life in the shadow of the Berlin Wall. 

The Palace of the Republic, a Socialist Realist monstrosity of bronze mirrored windows and steel girders, once housed both the rubber-stamp parliament and an entertainment complex that was unparalleled behind the Iron Curtain. 

Easterners, who were bussed in from across the country, have fond memories of a giant dance floor on hydraulic lifts, bowling allies, a wine bar, a theater, cafes and an international list of concert headliners including Harry Belafonte and Carlos Santana. 

But Berlin's current aspirations to spruce up its city center, a confused landscape scarred by a tumultuous history, have led to plans to tear down the now gutted Palace and rebuild an imperial Castle in its place. 

Many easterners have blasted the decision, taken by the federal parliament after a decade-long debate, as insensitive and pointless. 

The chairwoman of a group dedicated to saving the Palace, Liselotte Schulz, believes that old Cold War battles are still being fought over this piece of prime real estate in the heart of the reunited city. 

"They want to destroy any trace of the GDR," she said in an interview outside the Palace, using the acronym for communist East Germany's official name. 

"And 20 percent unemployment and disappearing companies is what they have to show for it. It is outrageous that they're wasting working people's money without a clue what they want to do now." 

Schulz, like many easterners, said she does not mourn the Stalinist state but misses the security and sense of solidarity under communism, which gave way to waves of layoffs and bankruptcies in the post-unification years. 

"People had support with their worries and fears and not even the Church manages to do that today," she said. 

Many have projected that ambivalence about the new Germany onto the condemned Palace. 

The building's cavernous halls, now stripped of asbestos, have also captured the imagination of a younger generation in recent years with a series of art installations, some of which attracted huge crowds to the hip "new" venue. 

But the city-state of Berlin and the federal government are banking on the construction of a more "aesthetic" cultural center on the site, behind replicas of the facade of the Hohenzollern Castle, the former residence of the kaisers. 

In 1950, the communists ripped down the sumptuous Baroque building -- which had sustained heavy damage from Allied bombing in World War II -- in a blow to a symbol of Prussian pomp and militarism. 

The city fathers now dream of restoring the elegant continuity of the grand Unter den Linden boulevard, which once culminated in the Castle and the matching, and still standing, Protestant cathedral. 

A leader of the local chapter of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, Frank Henkel, calls the Palace a "Socialist eyesore". 

"There is still a gaping wound in the heart of Berlin. That is why the city needs the Castle," he said. 

But although the plans are in motion, thousands of easterners say they will not let the Palace go without a fight and have staged a series of protests. 

"It would be complete nonsense to build a castle here, you might as well bring back the kaiser," fumed Schulz, who worked as an electrical technician in East Germany. 

"Both the Castle ruins and now the ruins made of the Palace are about an ideology that seeks to eliminate the traces of what came before," said cabaret artist Peter Ensikat. "What started with the Kaiser's Castle is continuing with the Palace as a farce." 

The only vague plans for the new Castle and all but non-existent financing for what could be a 780-million-euro (947-million-dollar) project have compounded the anger. 

City authorities have earmarked 12 million euros for the destruction of the Palace alone, but acknowledge the tab could run to 20 million euros by the time they have finished early next year. 

The gaping hole in the ground will be filled with sand and water, then topped with planted grass. 

The chief city development official, Ingeborg Junge-Reyer, assured there would be other recreational uses until building finally begins on the Castle, as well as sections reserved for archeological digs and information panels on the future of the site. 

"We know it is not enough to put in a lawn," she told reporters. 

For Schulz, the fraught debate reflects Germany's enduring difficulty in dealing with its history. 

"The Germans have a fractured relationship with their past," she said. "Just look at our architecture and you see that."


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## LuckyLuke

*Goodbye Palace :wave: *










*Welcome back Castle of Berlin*


www.berliner-schloss.de
www.berliner-stadtschloss.de


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## Kampflamm

Good riddance!


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## LuckyLuke

Watch the deconstruction live via Webcam!










http://www.dhm.de/zcam/


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## Phobos

I can't waut to see stadtschloss rebuilt.That was an amazing palace!


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## Bitxofo

:eek2:Incredible!:eek2:


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## LuckyLuke

Phobos said:


> I can't waut to see stadtschloss rebuilt.That was an amazing palace!


Me too, but be have to wait another 15 years to see it standing 

Before:









After:









Before:









After:









Before:









After:


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## LuckyLuke

The deconstruction has made progress so far


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## Philip Cronin

Good to see it coming down. Even a lawn will be an improvement. The impulse to preserve it is deranged.


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## steppenwolf

Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself. 

I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten


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## LuckyLuke

steppenwolf said:


> Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself.
> 
> I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten


This doesn't have anything to do with uncomfortable memories, just with aesthetic. The palace is an ugly building that doesn't fit in the historic center of Berlin. There are enought memorials, museums and buildings which remind us of the GDR. Besides there is nothing historic in the Palace anymore. 
The "Stadtschloss" stood there for 400 years the palace on the other hand has a history of only 14 years.


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## Philip Cronin

The parts of history that involve hideous buildings should be remembered through photographs only. In any case it wasn't a "palace of the people" it was a palace of communist military tyranny.


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## Kampflamm

steppenwolf said:


> Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself.
> 
> I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten


What are you smoking? We're reminded of our mistakes each and every day, besides, there are plenty of Commie buildings around, even after the "People's Palace" ( :laugh: ) is torn down.

Example:

Staatsratsgebäude, right next to the "Palace".


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## Kampflamm

Staatsratsgebäude is on the upper right:










Other commie gems:


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## Mike

steppenwolf said:


> Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression


What else but not a military oppressive regime was the GDR in your opinion? One example for its oppressive nature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_1953_in_East_Germany


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## Kampflamm

Just for the sake of comparison





































and now (those with a heart condition should not look at the following pics)


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## LuckyLuke




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## hellolazyness

Wow I am so glad I saw this thread. It really is fantastic that Germany is rebuilding some of it's old gems! Hopefully more commie buildings will get the axe :banana:


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## grachtengordeldier

Good for Berlin. 
Reminds of rebuilding the Frauenkirche in Dresden. 
Enough european cities have been half destroyed by "modernity", with monstrous buildings that really make you scared only by looking at them. Not only in the East.
Visit Amsterdam and look at the townhall (built ca 1984) and the surrounding neighbourhood. They destroyed several wonderful old blocks for it. Like cutting out the heart of a human and replacing an icecold stone for it.


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## redstone

oh wow!!!


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## PotatoGuy

it looks much nicer than the current building, heh


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## NavyBlue

steppenwolf said:


> Disgraceful fake lie to replace the palace. Replacing a palace of the people with a palace of military oppression suggests that the country has some severe issues with itself.
> 
> I think Berlin should acknowledge its fascinating and complex history instead of blotting out uncomfortable memories. Germany needs to keep memoreies of the worst parts of its past. They cant afford to be forgotten


I disagree . . . I think the Germans are well aware of their past. You only have to look at some of the aerials of Berlin to realize how much the past has cost them.

Great project and hopefully more to come...

Well done Berlin :cheers:


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## UrbanSophist

Is the castle being rebuilt using the same materials as in the original?


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## LuckyLuke

^^ Yes, the historic architecture of the Palace is documented in such detail through plans and photos, that it can be precisely reconstructed through traditional handicraft work.
Approximately seventy percent of the figurative sculptures from the Palace’s exterior still exist. Nevertheless, the stones of the cornices, windows, columns, and capitals were largely lost and only fragments are to be found in the storerooms of the museums and government offices. Copying them is relatively simple.


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## Prestonian

So it is a complete rebuild of both the exterior and interior? How much is this going to cost and what will its use be afterward, a museum/tourist attraction?

Fascinating project, wish we'd rebuild some of our lost gems back!


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## kebabmonster

Shame, boo to Berlin.

Though the legitimacy of the "Peoples" Parliament is without question, this just smacks of a let's show 'em who's boss. The East German parliament could have been kept as a museum/monument.


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## Kampflamm

> this just smacks of a let's show 'em who's boss.


That's right and next we'll enslave those Ossis!


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## LuckyLuke

Prestonian said:


> So it is a complete rebuild of both the exterior and interior?


The interior will be largely planned in a modern style. Only the most important historic suites will be rebuilt, but in a simpler form. Of the almost 1,000 rooms, less than 100 belong to this category. The Bundestag laid down in its decision, that the exterior of the Palace, that is the three baroque facades and the Schlüter Courtyard, should be reconstructed true to their original appearance. Wherever it can be reconciled with the plans for use, the historic suites are to rebuilt in their original format , albeit in a simpler form. Their completion will thereby be made possible for later generations. 





Prestonian said:


> How much is this going to cost and what will its use be afterward, a museum/tourist attraction?


The construction costs, which total altogether 670 million Euros, will be financed as follows:

Private and Institutional Investors: 280 million Euros
Small holders: 80 million Euros
Government: 230 million Euros. 
Construction of Palace Façades (donations) 80 million Euros.
*GRAND TOTAL: * 670 million Euros.

Note: It doesn't include the constructions of the rooms.
The reconstruction of one room would cost between 3 - 30 million Euros.


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## Prestonian

Thanks, Lucky 

Wow, so this is approaching a €1bn project, thats an incredible peice of conservation work! I admire the dedication to the project especially the private investment. What will the end use be for this amazing thing?


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## LuckyLuke

The Castle will become a part of the so called "Humboldt Forum". A building for art, science and communication. Together with the Museumisland (http://www.museumsinsel-berlin.de/) it will besome the biggest cultural place for art in the world.


Some more historic photos of the castle


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## GNU

^^ Those are some nice pre-war pics.

Thx!


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## LuckyLuke

More Renderings


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## GNU

LuckyLuke said:


>


Hmm! the castle doesnt look very "yellow" in this pic.


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## HelloMoto163




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## KOKOLOGIST

Wow, that new palace is beautiful. It's a good idea to rebuild it as that other People's Palace is terrible. It's not suitable for dt Berlin; it's the kind of building commonly found besides highways in suburbia. They should rebuild more of the beautiful buildings destroyed in WWII.

BTW, what happenned to the original palace? WWII or commies?


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## HelloMoto163

after the ww2 the palace was destroyed
and the GDR destroyed it completely


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## steppenwolf

Fake, lies, ignorance of the past, replacing a palace of the people with a palace of a repressive government, devaluation pof genuine heritage. In a few years time no one will know whats old and whats new in germany. i think this project stinks.


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## Kampflamm

"Palace of the people" hno: You obviously don't have a clue or you're a Communist. The people had nothing to say in East Germany, as a matter of fact they were prisoners in their own country.

Is the bell tower on St Mark's Square in Venice a fake in your opinion as well? Because it had to be rebuilt in the early 20th century


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## satama

> Is the bell tower on St Mark's Square in Venice a fake in your opinion as well? Because it had to be rebuilt in the early 20th century


Sorry, but you can't compare the two. The rebuilding of Campanile started almost immediatly after it had collapsed in 1902 and was opened to the public 10 years later. The remains of the castle in Berlin were intentionally destroyed AND replaced with another building that represents an era in German history.


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## pricemazda

When I went to Berlin last year for the Christopher St Parade (which was a lot of fun) I actually was disapointed with Berlin as a city. 

We stayed in the former West Berlin but it still had a 'commie' feel to it. Maybe this is German law on things like opening on Sundays and stuff but things shut early, not at all on sundays, it was like stepping back into the 1970's.

I think Berlin should be trying to rebuild some of beautiful buildings that were destroyed either by the war or the communists. 

Even when new build has gone up, say on potsdammer platz somehow they managed to make the former swinging centre of Berlin into a place with less humanity than Canary Wharf or La Defense. 

Berlin should be making a bigger play on its hedonistic reputation with cabaret and roaring 20's stuff.


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## Kampflamm

> They will probably not be really impressed with the Schloss once its finished


It's a beautiful building. Are there beautiful buildings all over Europe? Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city. It'll be one of the nicest palaces in Germany and it'll make a great ensemble along with the Dom, the Museum's Island and the end of Unter den Linden (Kommandantur, Zeughaus). 

If people want to see remnants of the GDR and it's realsocialist architecture, they can go to Alexanderplatz. Heck, right next door to the Schloss will be the Staatsratsgebäude, the place where important decisions were actually made. I've said it before, the Palast housed a neutered parliament which had no say whatsoever so I don't see why it has any true historic value.


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## GNU

edited


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## Justme

I see your point Checker, but I still don't agree. If the Palace was a beautiful building, then by all means, keep it. But it really was butt ugly. Memories are all very good, but why keep ugly ones.

It's simply time to move on.


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## GNU

some more pics:

thats how it will look like after the palace is gone:










a vision for the use of the space until the Schloss is back:










Right now it looks like this:










how its going to look in the future:










the old interior:










here are some more pics:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/fototouren/tour/index.asp?Tour=811


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## goschio

^
Are they realy going to build a glass roof over the innner square? That would be awesome!


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## GNU

goschio said:


> ^
> Are they realy going to build a glass roof over the innner square? That would be awesome!


No, this is a rendering of the old castle.
I dont know if they are going to put a roof over the new one


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## Rall

...


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## LuckyLuke

goschio said:


> ^
> Are they realy going to build a glass roof over the innner square? That would be awesome!


Yes they will build a glass roof in the Schlüter Courtyard.

From the offical Website:
The Schlüter Courtyard, covered over with a glass and steel roof, is intended to become the most beautiful festival hall of Berlin. With an area of about 4,000 square meters, it is ideally suited for large gatherings. During the construction of the glass roof, acoustical experts will be at work from the very beginning to obtain the best sound for this space. 

it will look similar to the Zeughaus on the other side
http://www.panorama-photography.com/pano_1.htm#


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## ultranet

*great*

It sounds great.......


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## VicFontaine

in china they'd have razed that old place in 2 weeks...


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## Rat

VicFontaine said:


> in china they'd have razed that old place in 2 weeks...


ha ha..


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## skysurfer26

Rat said:


> ha ha..


I heard yesterday news that the Palace will not be built in the next years, that they stoped the project ...is that true????

If it is I cant believe whats the problem of those german politics !!!!

This needs to be reconstructed NOW !!!!!!!

Bring back all historic buildings in central Berlin !!!!!!:bash:


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## HelloMoto163

ya its true


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## Zenith

No bring back all the old buildings in all European countries !!!

Why the hell cant we do some of this in Britain for christ sake grrrrrrr


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## hkskyline

Germany lost so much historic architecture during WW2, and Berlin's finances are not in very good shape today to embark on too many grandiose projects anymore. In time, the palace will be restored. We just need to be patient.


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## Valeroso

This seems to be one of the major projects in the world that will bring back a really old grand structure! I only wish more cities around the world could construct these really beautiful artistic buildings, because I think they're much more valuable than certain other modernist buildings you may find. A bit of a shame to hear the delay of this construction, but just as long as it gets built, I'm happy!  Would be nice if it could set a precedent for other cities, but that's pretty doubtful. I guess money and time will always be the issue.


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## Mesh22

I find this whole project reeking with subtext. It's not just being demolished because its ugly, its because it represents that inconvienient wedge of German history.

I'm going to be in Berlin in July and I'm more interested in the relics of the former East than the West to be honest.


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## goschio

Mesh22 said:


> I'm going to be in Berlin in July and I'm more interested in the relics of the former East than the West to be honest.


No worry, there is still lots of communist architecture in Berlin. Make sure that you dont miss the wunderschoene Alexanderplatz. Here with "House of the Teacher" in the background (left pic).


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## Conrad

what can i say..I really don't miss that awful Nazi building.


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## Kampflamm

Mesh22 said:


> I find this whole project reeking with subtext. It's not just being demolished because its ugly, its because it represents that inconvienient wedge of German history.


What, Nazism?

Anyway, looks like construction on the palace will start in 2010. :banana:


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## leo_sh

Kampflamm: A lot of governments in German history shots their own citizens, which does not make GDR regime any special. The fact that quite a large number of East German population don't have a negative memory about this regime and quite a few of them go on to vote PDS/Linker speak some truth. To weep out it with a flush is simplistic. To compare with its predecessor, it was much, much more humane, constructive in domestic and world politics, progressive in thinking and handling, restrained in exploiting the world economically, and peace-loving by default (considering its size of population and military). I know it is far from to meet your critical eyes, but GDR was really an absolute win for the welfare of the world. Perhaps less fabulous and grandiose as the contribuation to the humankind by the Federal Republic, but anyway. I have a lot of understanding for the former GDR citizens who feel proud of their once existent country, as well as for those who hate it.
Checker: I have put it very clear - the aesthetics of the castle is average and lukewarm, dispensable and full of clichés, unlike the palace, which is a clear concept, realized with a loving hand, disturbing for those who hate it and the its association, inspiring for those who understand it and can read it in its context. Either way, it is something really special, brain-twisting. This effect is largely resulted from its out-of-placeness, its stark contrast, its uncompromising character against a background of the grayish Prussian environment. If it be built somewhere, it would become a Don Quixot against the blankness. And please don't compare the castle with the Frauenkirche. As a jewel of German high baroque, it is an essential part helping to complete the Dresdener architectual ensemble. The Frauenkirche is really a monument for the German architecture, just as the rest of Dresden. The communists knew this so they left it in ruins instead of sweeping it away. In comparison, what is the castle good for? The castle was famous as the residence of the Kaiser and the power center of the empire, nothing else, really poor. The so-called Humboldt Forum just sounds so spontaneous and out of the air.


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## GNU

edited


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## Kampflamm

> GDR was really an absolute win for the welfare of the world.


Tell that to the people that were locked up for simply speaking their mind.


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## surrounded

I really do not know what went wrong with some of the people posting on this thread but could you please explain me how you can do aesthetic judgements on a building that you heaven's even seen in its original condition?
All I've seen (in this thread) so far are pictures of the Palast in today's rundown condition.
So here are some historic pics:




























Btw/ together with the Fernsehturm (which is rather unlikely to be destroyed because it is commercialized) it made a perfect composition.










Another point is that it was (and would be today) the best equipped building of its kind in the world (influencing the building other similar structures as the Centre Pompidou in Paris). And before you're arguiung against that I investigated a lot on this building and know what I'm talking about (I studied the masterplan)
Saying it was a representation of the GDR regieme is absolutely ridicoulus. It is true that the Volkskammer (the GDR parliament) was situated in one part of the building (besides it took the smallest volume of it) the SED regieme was situated on the other side of the Marx and Engels Place (today Schloßplatz) in their Staatsratsgebäude.

Apart from that I (as a former East German citizen) feel deeply insulted by what is happening. Not that the destruction of this place was not enough it is also erazed out of all of the souvenir shops and so out of everyone's mind. Have you ever tried to find an item on the Palast in Berlin? Forget it. There's nothing. The senate of Berlin has told the stores to not sell anything reminding of the Palast anymore. (The biggest souvenir shop, Berlin-Story, has in total 4 items on the Palast whereas it has racks full of Schloss related books, postcards and other stuff)

In the end I think that a lot of people would think (or would have thought) different if they just knew a little about this building and did not just see (pictures of) a ruin und a rendering of a fancy castle next to it.
With the Palast not only a building is disappeares but also a big part of Berlin's and Germany's history is erazed from the people's mind.


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## brisavoine

In Paris they also want to rebuild the royal/imperial palace, aka the Tuileries Palace, which burned during the Paris Commune in 1871 and was then torn down by the Republican authorities in 1882 instead of restoring it. Haussmann and many other people were opposed to tearing it down, but the left-wing Republicans did it anyway, just to remove a symbol of the kings and emperors, exactly like what happened to Berlin Stadtschloss.

Now that Berlin is about to rebuild its Stadtschloss, I bet the project of rebuilding the Tuileries Palace is going to come back to the fore in Paris.

Here are some views of the Tuileries Palace before 1871. The roof on top the entrance hall inspired many buildings across America.










The Tuileries Palace stood between the Louvre and the Tuileries Gardens. Here you can see the palace with the Tuileries Gardens in the foreground.










Here is the other side of the Tuileries Palace. You can see the Arc du Carousel which was the entrance gate to the visitors courtyard. State guests entered the palace through this gate. In the distant background you can see the famous Arc de Triomphe standing at the end of the Champs-Élysées. In the foreground where you can see the shrubs is where the Louvre Pyramid stands now.










The same view today. The Arc du Carousel is still standing, but the Tuileries Palace has vanished, and the Arc du Carousel has lost its function as the entrance gate to a royal palace.










The burnt shell of the palace remained for 11 years waiting to be restored. It could have been easily restored, but the left-wing Republicans decided to destroy it for ideological reasons.










The state rooms were as grand as in Versailles, and decorated in the most lavish French style. The interesting thing, unknown to most French people, is that absolutely everything was saved from the fire. The French being art lovers as they are, when the Prussians invaded France in 1870 all the furniture, upholstery, decorations, gilded bronzes, paintings, cristal luminaries, curtains, tapestry, etc., everything from inside the palace was removed and stored in safe places away from Paris, and so they escaped the big fire of 1871.

Everything is now stored in some of the many storehouses of the French governement. There's no room at the Louvre or in any French museum to display these masterpieces of 18th and 19th century French art. One of the goals of rebuilding the Tuileries Palace would be to recreate the state rooms and place all the treasures now stored away from the public back in their original location, to the view of the public. The other smaller rooms would not be rebuilt in their original style but would be used to expand the Louvre Museum which has reached maximum capacity.

Views of some of the state rooms.

Louis XIV Room (Salon Louis XIV):









Hall of Peace (Galerie de la Paix)









Hall of Diana (Galerie de Diane):









Room of Apollo (Salon d'Apollon):









Throne Room:









Room of the Marshals of the Empire (Salon des Maréchaux):









Here is the official website of the committee proposing to rebuild the Tuileries Palace for those who want to find out more: http://www.tuileries.org/


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## leo_sh

Kampflamm said:


> Tell that to the people that were locked up for simply speaking their mind.


Today people will still be! Speech can be a crime in today's German criminal code.


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## Kampflamm

Come on, you lose all credibility if you think people in the GDR had similar civil rights to people in West Germany. Your comments can get you into trouble if they're slanderous, which is the case in most democratic states.


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## leo_sh

Kampflamm said:


> Come on, you lose all credibility if you think people in the GDR had similar civil rights to people in West Germany. Your comments can get you into trouble if they're slanderous, which is the case in most democratic states.


We are talking about architecture, you are posting Berlin Wall dead bodies. Once it is shocking, twice it is ohlala, thrice it is boring, if not laughable, privately none of us are impressed. Should we attatch a Rotenburg cannibal biography at the end of every posts about the contemporary German architecture?

Berlin Wall dead bodies can remind us how unhuman GDR was; Rotenburg cannibal can remind us how bored and know-nothing-better Today's German society is.

My point is not about being right or wrong, my point is about exaggeration and being over the top.


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## Kampflamm

You brought politics into this by drawing a link between the Hohenzollerns, the palace and both world wars (while presenting the communist regime in East Germany as some sort of great philanthropic government).

And what does the cannibal have to do with any of this? There's a huge difference between state sanctioned murder and some lunatic who enjoys eating other people's genitalia.


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## GNU

surrounded said:


> Saying it was a representation of the GDR regieme is absolutely ridicoulus. It is true that the Volkskammer (the GDR parliament) was situated in one part of the building (besides it took the smallest volume of it) the SED regieme was situated on the other side of the Marx and Engels Place (today Schloßplatz) in their Staatsratsgebäude.


Of course it was a representation of the GDR government.
Regardless how much space the parliament took up in the building.
They blew up the castle (which was represantation of the prussian monarchy) in order to build it.
But I guess we cant ague about taste though. The palace looked maybe just about acceptable when it was new but architectionally I prefer the castle.
What bothers me a bit is that we are destroying a part of our history though.


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## leo_sh

Kampflamm said:


> You brought politics into this by drawing a link between the Hohenzollerns, the palace and both world wars (while presenting the communist regime in East Germany as some sort of great philanthropic government).
> 
> And what does the cannibal have to do with any of this? There's a huge difference between state sanctioned murder and some lunatic who enjoys eating other people's genitalia.


I don't post dead men, dude. 
And the original comment about Hohenzollerns is not about the architecture, but a reminder to yours about the relationship between them and Adolf Hitler. And it is allocated in a P.S..
Your original comment:
"And please spare me this typical 'imperial Germany is bad' whining. The Hohenzollerns had nothing to do with Nazism, so don't blame Hitler's crimes on them."

The Hohenzollerns indeed had nothing to do with Nazi's antisemitism, but they had everything to do with Hitler's anti-slavonic attitudes, militarism and expansionism. When Hitler was still in Austria, he detested the multiculturalism of the Habsburgs and their prudeness in warefare, and regarded German emperor as the role model. This was well recorded. The Hohenzollerns themselves were directly envolved in warmongering, massacring defenceless civilians during wartime, colonization, and genocide. And there are evidence, documents, and articles published in Germany proving this involvement. When Hitler already banished the democracy and began to persecute the Jews and propagate the war, the German emperor in exile sent Hitler the message that he would cooperate with Hitler in exchange of restoring the monarchy. This is a known fact.

These facts put the imperial Germany and the Hohenzollerns in a context that seems anything sinister than benign.

This is a separate discussion, which does not have anything to do with architecture. And this is obvious in my original post.

If it has anything to do with architecture, it is because any mentions about the palace of the people are inevitably dragged into this kind of association. While the palace is despised as the symbol of the evil regime, the Stadtschloss appears to be context-free. If the latter is clean, the continuous muttering about the former's symbolism just doesn't sound genuine.

And neither did I portrait the GDR regime as philanthopic, or anything great. It made fewer troubles for its neighbors. A lot of East Germans feel proud of this. We know it is a self-comfort. I just relay this joke. That's it. 

You ask what the cannibal has to do with German architecture? No, it hasn't. But it has just enough clichés in it about the German people, it is good enough to set some people aback who might have a interest in German architecture. Political labelling is another kind of clichés that kills original discussions. But your blantant apologist stance to the imperial Germany may be something more than the clichés.


----------



## Miso

mmmm... I doubt about it... maybe an spectacular modern building would be better ....


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## nicouru

Personally what I find interesting is how people deride the DDR gvt for being "Evil" yet you want to rebuild the house of the second Reich which killed 9 million people directly or indirectly, and was also a tyrannical monarchical imperialist, racist, militaristic power...if anything the DDR looks like Mickey Mouse compared to what that palace represented. 

It is a real shame that they are tearing down the Palast, it could have been used as a museum of DDR history, or other cultural purposes could have been easily fulfilled in the building as it was used right before its demolition. I do not think that the Palast was an "ugly" building, it had its charm if it was in its original condition as was mentioned prior. I think people have a bias against "socialist architecture", but if the Palast was London or New York it would be a masterpiece...I mean you wanna talk about ugly buildings:

http://www.albany.edu/~ec494772/EDStone/KennedyCenter.jpg

No that isn't Moscow, its the Kennedy Center in Washington.


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## Mesh22

As an Australian who recently travelled to Berlin I would like to throw in my opinion.

I think its a real disaster that the Palast is being demolished. Its probably one of the first modern buildings of our time, that should have been protected from demolishion (and, perhaps, just like the building in its spot should have). 

I found a real strong attitude in Germany that seemed to accept, and be quite open about the years from 1933 to 1945, however between 1945 and 1989, basically it seems the history of the West Germany rules. Its as if East Germany was an inconvienient stain in Germany becoming the amazing nation it is in 2007 since WW2. Just the feeling I got, anyway......

I know this building is a stark reminder of a very dark regime, but demolishing it and construction a crude replica of something before it is nothing but tacky. People dont go to Berlin to admire its pre 20th century achitecture, unlike the rest of Europe it has a character that is far deeper than aestetics. Let alone a replica.

But whats now done is done, just done build the replica. The site is worthy of something new.


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## LuckyLuke

Sooo slow...

http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/cat/374/display/10270444


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## Breslau

I understand the desire to preserve historical buildings, but I don't have a problem with them tearing it down, after all it was built by a regime founded at the end of a Russian burp gun.

Just remember they're not rebuilding the previous structure, it's a new one made to just resemble it. this concept (new building in old style) is nothing new in parts of Europe affected by war.


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## Breslau

Another angle of the demolition, different from the DHM. the larger of the two structures making up the Palast is almost on its last breath.










interesting fact i found on this site. the concrete "bowl" constructed as a foundation of the PdR will live on as the foundation for any new structure. the interim green space, which is made of a sand/water mixture, is necessary to keep this foundation from rising. this filler can be easily pumped out when the weight of the new structure is in place.

More at: 
http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/bauen/palast_rueckbau/index_en.shtml


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## Kim André

Kampflamm said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city. It'll be one of the nicest palaces in Germany and it'll make a great ensemble along with the Dom, the Museum's Island and the end of Unter den Linden (Kommandantur, Zeughaus).


I find this post to be somewhat self-contradictory.

So, what is it? If Berlin is "butt-ugly", why are you so fond of making an "ensemble" of buildings/streets of this butt-uglyness?

In my opinion, Berlin is a beautiful city, with or without the new castle, much thanks to these areas you mention here.


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## Kampflamm

What exactly is contradictory there? It's ugly and the castle will alleviate some that (along with the surrounding buildings). It really couldn't be any less self-contradictory.


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## Kim André

Kampflamm said:


> It really couldn't be any less self-contradictory.


Off course it could. If a city of some 3.5 million people is "butt-ugly", simple maths tells you that one single building will have minimal impact on this "fact".

It sounds like you think this decision (to raze the Palace of the Republic, and replace it with some other palace) is _the_ decisive factor for the looks of Berlin:



> Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city.


Translation:

"Keep it, and Berlin will remain a butt-ugly city."

"Raze it, and rebuild an older palace, and Berlin will become so much better to behold."

Your arguments are out of proportions.


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## f.e.s.b.r.

that is gonna be crazy to reconstruct the palace.. but that is gonna be wonderful when it is donne... 
the palace looks more like a EUROPE VIEW ...
than with that bad looking building...

i hope to see this construction done


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## Kampflamm

The final design has been selected...the winner: Francesco Stella.










Modern facade:










Courtyard:



















The old Socialist "palace" is about to disappear completely:


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## redstone

Why not rebuild the whole thing exactly as it was?


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## storms991

What the hell is this rubbish? Why the f*** do they always have to add this modern crap into the mix? Is it not possible to build it to be exactly the same way it was before?


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## Skymino

I like it and definitely prefer it to a big Disneyland or Las Vegas-like one.


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## Slartibartfas

Its hard to satisfy the modernists, but actually we can be glad that it gets restored up to this level at all.

One has to consider first of all that it has to serve a modern purpose, it would be a bit too expensive to rebuild it as an imperial castle for no other purpose than maybe some tours through it. 

Thats why it will be a used as a museum/culture complex. Such a complex has certain demands regarding space and volumina etc. Thats why it can't be rebuilt completely authentic. 

I would have preferred however another reconstruction. The one of Kolhoff would have created a more harmonic courtyard.

One should appreciate however the fact that the facade of three direction will be authentically restored, only the backside will be in a modern language. If one knows how chaotic and small structured this side was in the original castle thats a decision one can understand, after all, as I have said, this building has to function as well, not just look nice. And towards the squre it is directed it, a modern facade probably fits better than an old one anyway.


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## storms991

^^ Why not build it pure? the facade at least. I see no valid reason to give the baroque building a modern facade on one side.


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## AAL

When a classicist suggests adding neoclassical elements to a new building, he/she is accused of being anachronistic, kitsch and so on. When a modernist adds modern elements to an old building, then it's "an interesting mix". In Athens, after they wiped out 3/4 of the city AFTER WWII (the war damages were not too heavy, Athens was never carped-bombed), then they started adding glass extensions to restored neoclassical buildings. These things really piss me off. I had thought the Berlin Palace would be rebuilt as an exact replica. Buildings that were totally destroyed by the war have been rebuilt in so many other German cities, and also in Poland and elsewhere. What is it that makes is so difficult for it to happen in Berlin (and Athens as well)? 
It's one thing to mix different styles in an area...it can often be interesting (though I prefer stylistically pure areas I must admit)...and it's a totally different thing to produce bastardized buildings. Of course it needs a modern interior, but why bastardize the exterior? I was really looking forward to seeing the Palace, this is disappointing...


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## hkskyline

*Berlin Prepares Ground for New Palace*
3 December 2008
Deutsche Welle

Germany completed the demolition of a communist-era building that doubled as a house of parliament and palace of culture, clearing the site for a replica of the earlier Berlin royal palace.

A design for the old-new palace, to be named the Humboldt Forum, was picked last week, but building work at the site in the middle of the German capital will not start for another two years.

Completing two years of work, diggers ripped down on Tuesday, Dec. 2, the final staircase of the Palace of the Republic, which was once a 180-meter (590-foot) long building lined with the asbestos insulation and clad with copper-colored glass.

Old-time communists have mourned the demise of former East Germany's grandest building, opened in 1976, and have opposed plans to recreate the outward form of the old royal palace.

The authoritarian kaisers lived in Berlin or nearby Potsdam until the last abdicated in 1918 and Germany became a republic. The old palace was gutted by fire during World War II and demolished in 1950.

Michael Moeller, in charge of the new demolition work, said, "That's the finish of the main job. Now we have to grind up the last pile of rubble and take everything off the site."

The pit left after demolition is to be filled with 20,000 cubic meters of sand so grass can be planted on the site until work begins in 2010 on the Humboldt Forum.


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## socrates#1fan

I am assuming that 3/4 of the exterior will be COMPLETELY restored?
If so, where are the two little cupolas that were on the sides of the dome? Are they to be restored? If not, why so?
Anyhow, it is a step. It is likely later on they will restore it completely but I suppose this is a 75% reconstruction.


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## AMS guy

This must be a bad joke hno:


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## Skymino

Why? To me it's not that bad.


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## redstone

Skymino said:


> Why? To me it's not that bad.


A replica of the historical palace, with part modern facade? hno:


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## Justme

^ That's the rear of the palace, not the facade. And the rear is the only side not to be replicating the historical exterior.


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## redstone

Why not rebuild the whole thing?


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## Skymino

Because it will look like a big fake, like a las-vegas-style. This is IMO a good balance between the historical palace and a brend new one.


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## pencialcase

Skymino said:


> Because it will look like a big fake, like a las-vegas-style. This is IMO a good balance between the historical palace and a brend new one.


Why would it appear fake?


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## Skymino

pencialcase said:


> Why would it appear fake?



Because it would appear like a big movie-set, totally reconstructed, where everything is not original, like a reproduction of an ancient greek vase, beautiful but fake.
If i were the city authority I would never rebuild the same palace (in Italy you'll never see such a reconstruction) but a new modern one instead, maybe with the original parts left from demolition inserted in the new building.


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## Chadoh25

I agree with some of the above comments. If you are going to rebuild a historic structure, then be true to it. But if they are going to add this modern crap to it, then I'd rather they not rebuild it at all. Hell, I'd prefer the old Palace of the Republic, atleast it would have been preserved in its true form! This THING is a disgrace to the History of Berlin!


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## hkskyline

It depends .. some modernization of historic buildings can be successfully achieved. For example, the new buildings next to St. Paul's in London have a historic touch, yet don't feel out of place or fake at all. It really hinges on the execution.


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## pencialcase

Skymino said:


> Because it would appear like a big movie-set, totally reconstructed, where everything is not original, *like a reproduction of an ancient greek vase, beautiful but fake*.
> If i were the city authority I would never rebuild the same palace (in Italy you'll never see such a reconstruction) but a new modern one instead, maybe with the original parts left from demolition inserted in the new building.


Classical, revival buildings are aesthetically beautiful, constructed using high quality materials the buildings architectural legitimacy is not important. Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world are based around classical styles; London and Paris are cities fabricated and constructed using reproduced "revival" architecture, but would you consider these buildings and areas "fake"? If a new building was built on the site of the Berlin Stadtschloss in a modern style it would almost certainly receive the same fate as the Palace of the Republic; however the reconstructed palace is aesthetically attractive fitting into its surroundings becoming a permanent and lasting feature. Classical architecture when built and designed to a high standard is more attractive than any building built in a modern style. Beautiful buildings are beautiful regardless of whether their fake or not.


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## Skymino

Saying that i like good reproductions, i visited last summer Dresden and i apprecieted the good work.
But everybody who saw my pictures said that Dresden looks like a big Disneyland... where everything it's an imitation and for many people this is not good. I explained that part of these buildings reconstructed have some original parts re-placed in their original position.
These motivation where the only way to let appreciate Dresden to many people.
That's what i'm saying, i like the reconstruction, but it will never be the original one, just a "fake".


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## seattle92

I would love to see some of the 70's and 80's contructions in Lisbon have the same fate has the "people's palace". 

It breaks my heart to see historical buildings in Europe being destroied to build modern horrors (or even modern beautis, there's a place for everything).

Some buildings are simply a mistake since the beguining. But if a mistake was made, it doesn't mean that it can't be corrected.

Berlin will be definitly more beautifull with the original palace. That area of the city is really impressive and will be even more now.


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## habsgul

seattle92 said:


> It breaks my heart to see historical buildings in Europe being destroied to build modern horrors (or even modern beautis, there's a place for everything)


Just as a reminder I'd like to point out: the palace of the republic is/was a historical building, too!

Even if the existence of the GDR was a short-lived one, it's still part of Germany's and more specifically Berlin's history. And the palace of the republic had it's place in a (even if radical) well thought through composition for the central district of Berlin.

Destroying a primary example of the architecture (and no doubt also the ideology) of a country that no longer exists is in my eyes not _one bit_ better than what the GDR did with the old palace.

Both, the GDR and now the FRG/Germany have destroyed a part of their own history because it didn't suit the current political system. They both erased history. Now the FRG is rebuilding one part by erasing another, but two wrongs don't make a right.


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## Dr.Seltsam

Yes...but the big difference is: the Palace of the Republic was fu..ing ugly and the old palace will be very beautiful!


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## habsgul

Dr.Seltsam said:


> Yes...but the big difference is: the Palace of the Republic was fu..ing ugly and the old palace will be very beautiful!


"Beauty" is very subjective.

Just look at what they are planning to build near the Hauptbahnhof and Reichstag building: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=30774952&postcount=238

Or this "jewel" of architecture at Alexanderplatz:









Or what they did to the Friedrichstraße:








The Admiralspalast (behind the first building on the left) shows the original height of buildings in this street. And the construction site on the right used to be a green area.

And now a (historical) picture of the palace of the republic:









All these buildings are/were considered "beautiful" by their architects.

And by the way ... take a look at the backside of the proposed reconstruction and say again that this is "very beautiful," or even an improvement to the palace of the republic:


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## Ji-Ja-Jot

Buld it like it was and bring history back. 
I am sad about Berlin, because exspecially here seems to be a competiotion of famous architects, who will design and complete the most ugly building.


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## socrates#1fan

Fake?
What about the tower in Venice? Is that a fake?
A lot of the time these structures look fake because they are so new. Many of these historic buildings looked 'disney' when they were first completed.
If this is fake because it is the reconstruction of a style than most 15th-19th century styles are fake.


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## habsgul

socrates#1fan said:


> Fake?
> What about the tower in Venice? Is that a fake?
> A lot of the time these structures look fake because they are so new. Many of these historic buildings looked 'disney' when they were first completed.
> If this is fake because it is the reconstruction of a style than most 15th-19th century styles are fake.


While you a right that many buildings used to be (and still are) built to look like a style from the past, I think the reason some people see the reconstruction as a "fake" is that it is - in fact - a *re*construction.

It does not simply use older art styles (like the buildings you are referring to), it's façade is a (more or less) complete 1:1 reconstruction of a building that has been destroyed for more than 50 years.

And unlike, for example, the Frauenkirche in Dresden there are almost no remaining original pieces of the Stadtschloss façade. Strictly speaking the new Stadtschloss won't be a reconstruction at all, it will be a replica.

Some picture from the Frauenkirche:








































Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche



This (the "Karl-Liebknecht-Portal") consists of some of the only remaining original parts of the Stadtschloss aside from some sculptures now scattered around Berlin in and outside of other historical buildings. And as far as I know there are no plans to integrate it back into the Schloss (the building it's currently part of was just recently renovated and converted into an international school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_School_of_Management_and_Technology and is under historic preservation since 1993).








Wiki (only German): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsratsgebäude


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## socrates#1fan

They should re-use the original parts.
However, it isn't like they are just rebuilding a set of shops or homes.
It is the reconstruction of a landmark. A landmark that held a very historic place but was destroyed without care or regard for it's history. Many buildings have been rebuilt from scratch.
I would support them returning all original parts of the building and placing them in the reconstruction.
Berlin has lost most of it's beautiful architecture and I think the reconstruction of such a historical landmark would restore a lot of beauty to that part of Berlin.
I wish the Reichsteig(sp?) was restored properly and not gutted and 'upgraded'.


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## Looking/Up

Ooooo! Gorgeous! Any chance the German people will ship over the completed building to Toronto? Perhaps?... Probably not, eh? A shame, because it's a beautiful building. :colgate:


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## habsgul

I understand most people in this thread who just want to rebuild the old palace because of it's historic importance.

I just wish more people would realize that the palace of the republic itself was a historic landmark, too (it stood there for 30 years). It always gets neglected just because it's part of the "newer" history. I don't want to justify what the GDR did, but people in, say, 20 or 40 years might think about the demolition of the palace of the republic just like most now think about the demolition of the old palace.


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## redstone

I rather have a grand historic building than a bland modern building anytime.


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## giaocomo

redstone said:


> I rather have a grand historic building than a bland modern building anytime.


You are right, but modern buildings are not necessarily ugly...


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## habsgul

Oh wow ... I have no words left for this ...


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## rychlik

pencialcase said:


> Classical, revival buildings are aesthetically beautiful, constructed using high quality materials the buildings architectural legitimacy is not important. Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world are based around classical styles; London and Paris are cities fabricated and constructed using reproduced "revival" architecture, but would you consider these buildings and areas "fake"? If a new building was built on the site of the Berlin Stadtschloss in a modern style it would almost certainly receive the same fate as the Palace of the Republic; however the reconstructed palace is aesthetically attractive fitting into its surroundings becoming a permanent and lasting feature. Classical architecture when built and designed to a high standard is more attractive than any building built in a modern style. Beautiful buildings are beautiful regardless of whether their fake or not.


I never got this mentality of "fake vs real". What if someone simply has passion for classical architecture and wants to build himself a beautiful villa using a classical architectural style? They are not allowed to because we are in 2009? What would make the structure any less real?! It's ridiculous! Just an example.


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## goschio

The reconstruction of the castle is a waste of resources IMO. Especially if they are going to use tax money for it.

Its not even that beautiful. Rather bland compared to many other historical buildings. And with this modernist crap facade toward Alexanderplatz it will look completely ridiculous.


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## Ingenioren

*Very, very* sad to see the old palace of republic go, much better than the not so good looking old castle.... I think Berlins image as the once divided city is much more significant than the earlier history, the wall is almost all gone, and this... What's next? Checkpoint charlie? The Tv-tower?


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## habsgul

I recently discovered some very old reversal film pictures my grandfather took when the palace of the republic was built:


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## Kampflamm

Ingenioren said:


> *Very, very* sad to see the old palace of republic go, much better than the not so good looking old castle.... I think Berlins image as the once divided city is much more significant than the earlier history, the wall is almost all gone, and this... What's next? Checkpoint charlie? The Tv-tower?


How is it much more significant? All of Berlin's history is significant and has others have mentioned countless times, if you want to see what Socialist architecture looks like, all you have to do is walk further east towards Alexanderplatz.

Anyway, the Hohenzollerns ruled over Brandenburg/Prussia for about 540 years, while Berlin was divided for about 40. So which era is more significant again?


----------



## ainttelling

Saigoneseguy said:


> Some young Eastern Europeans seem to miss Communism much (maybe from what they've been told from their nostalgic parents?) Ever got the taste of how is it like?


Maybe from their nostalgic parents...


----------



## antovador

redstone said:


> I rather have a grand historic building than a bland modern building anytime.





giaocomo said:


> You are right, but modern buildings are not necessarily ugly...


and all "modern" buildings will become "historic" logically, look New York City where Chrysler Tower and the Empire State will have 80 years in the next two years.


----------



## Kampflamm

> I just want you to know that I am a Ph.D student in one of the top 20 schools in the world...so uneducated?


OK, so you're not uneducated but you clearly have an agenda which is blinding your intelligence here.



> 1) The Reich was at the heart of inter-imperialist rivalries of the early 20th century that directly led to WWI.


All empires of Europe are to blame for WWI. For quite a while Wilhelm II tried to avert war but the rather retarded alliance with Austria forced his hand eventually. 



> 2) The Palace, as the effective seat of the Prussian government, was the nexus of the terror that spread throughout Europe, i.e. Chemical warfare, institutionalized racism, rape, etc.


All sides used chemical weapons. And are you telling me that the "armies of democracy" were any less racist? Even during WW2 black/African soldiers were treated like crap by the US and French forces.



> 3) The ideology of the Reich, in part, helped lead to the Nazi terror of the WWII.


Hitler was an Austrian, the capital of his "movement" was Munich. You're creating links here that have little to nothing to do with the actual building.



> The DDRs record, compared to the Reich, is more than tolerable.


See the post below. It locked up its own people, killed political prisoners, made it impossible for critical voices to do or accomplish anything within the country, it participated in aggressions against its neighbor...but yeah, like all Socialist countries it tried to project an image of brotherhood of all peoples which is why you sometimes saw black people on the street or on official posters (interestingly enough that part of Germany is now by far the most racist one, so I guess the imperialist Wessis must have done something right between 1949-90).

Fact of the matter is that I prefer the castle because I think it's a more beautiful building. The PdR's political background doesn't really matter to me until people start blaming the Prussian palace for war crimes.


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## Kampflamm

habsgul said:


> Unfortunately, for you this obviously never was a _discussion_.


Exactly. I have my opinion and I will stick to it. That's why these debates are fairly pointless, especially when people who admire the GDR are entering them. I mean seriously...did the Kaiserreich lock up its own people? Did it kill political prisoners on a grand scale? The GDR was a horrific regime which btw took parts in wars of aggression as well. So no bowling alley can hide that.


----------



## Nico_Uru

_OK, so you're not uneducated but you clearly have an agenda which is blinding your intelligence here._

Huh? Firstly, it is impossible for a human being who is communicating with another human being to be devoid of a opinion, or what you derisively call an 'agenda'. If anything, I have pretty much undone all of your ideological arguments, i.e. "DDR bad har har". Secondly, all of your 'points' relating to the DDR have been throughly criticized. My intelligence brings me to the conclusions I have, not visa versa. 

_All empires of Europe are to blame for WWI. For quite a while Wilhelm II tried to avert war but the rather retarded alliance with Austria forced his hand eventually. _

Some more than others certainly, and German once in the war was more than wiling to violate international law, create a proto-lebensraum in Eastern Europe with the Treaty of Brest-Livtosk--something that certainly inspired Hitler. If the Reich was merely looking for peace and not war, I do not think the Kaiser would have had such grand plans for a future German hegemon in Western and Eastern Europe, wiping whole states off the map. Ironically, it was the Reich that facilitated the transit of Lenin to Russia. 

_All sides used chemical weapons. And are you telling me that the "armies of democracy" were any less racist? Even during WW2 black/African soldiers were treated like crap by the US and French forces._

Who started the slide towards barbarism? Germany, she was the one who first used chemical weapons against allied troops. In addition, to my knowledge, the allied forces, in the West at least, did not engage in institutionalized rape, theft, and dispossession as the Germans did in Belgium. About racism, Germany's actions in Africa were among the most barbaric of any European power. 

_Hitler was an Austrian, the capital of his "movement" was Munich. You're creating links here that have little to nothing to do with the actual building._

Hitler was a soldier in the German army, fighting for the Reich and felt it was betrayed by "Judeo-Bolsheviks". Hitler, in part, was inspired by Bismark and the Prussian notion of Germanization and the superiority of the German people. To my knowledge, Munich is in Germany so I do not know why you are treating it as if it were a foreign city. The building _represents_ that dark period in German history, do you understand the notion of metaphor, representation? You obviously do b/c you have little problem associating the crime of the DDR regime with the Palast, but seem to deviate from that logic once you talk about the Palace. 

_It locked up its own people *(Rosa Luxemburg)*, killed political prisoners, made it impossible for critical voices to do or accomplish anything within the country*(the Reich was a autocratic 'enlightened' dictatorship, with a nominal legislature)*, it participated in aggressions against its neighbor..*(seriously? Belgium, France, Russia killing millions of people)*_

You just described the Reich, both of them. The DDR was no paradise, and I would love for you to show where I said or even implied it was. The DDR's aggressions against human rights, international law are marginal compared to what occurred in the Reich. Ergo, if we are talking about which regime is worse it is the Reich in my opinion and thus, I do not think we should be idealizing and glorifying a dark past. I am not saying that we should keep the PdR as a monument to the DDR, however, we should have renovated it so it could represent a reconciled Germany. Now, we have a scar in the middle of Berlin filled with the cancer of the imperial past. 

_I mean seriously...did the Kaiserreich lock up its own people? Did it kill political prisoners on a grand scale? _

Yes and yes. In addition, the invasion of Czechoslovakia was not an act of war, so I do not know what 'wars of aggression' you are talking about.


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## Justme

Nico_Uru said:


> *Justme*
> 
> I answered your question, and stop bringing up red herrings. You are obviously intellectually unable to carry on this conversation....
> 
> ... I just want you to know that I am a Ph.D student in one of the top 20 schools in the world...so uneducated? Rather, it is painfully obvious that you are merely projecting your own deficiencies on me.


Well, I am smart enough to know that every attempt at communism in world history has failed and resulted in a murderous dictatorship.

Now, let me give you some real life history. I have a friend from the DDR. I met her when she was 17 shortly after the fall of the wall and she told me this story of her family.

A short while after she was born, her father was arrested by the police. You see, a neighbour had noticed an English language book in their house. It was a novel, if I remember correctly. But the simple fact it was English was enough in those dark days to be arrested. 

She never saw her father once as she was only a baby when he was taken away. As she grew up, she and her family members would write countless letters to him, hoping that he read them and hoping to get a reply but she never did. He did recieve some of them though.

What happened to him was horrible to say the least. You see, he was locked up in the basement of the building across the street. In the basement of the neighbour who called the police. If the DDR government could think of a more horrible torture, I don't know. He could just look out a small slit in the boards that blocked the tiny window near the ceiling, and for nearly 17years he watched his daughter growing up. He was told if he tried to call out, they would torture is wife and children, so for nearly 17 years he suffered in the most horrible way. 

At the fall of the DDR, he was of course released and reunited with his family.

Today, the Eastern part of Germany is a free land. Maybe you wish a return to those horrors, and quite frankly if you do, your Ph.D won't be worth a grain of salt in my eyes. But I certainly hope you grow out of these delusions with the past. 

As for claiming my dislike for the Palace of the Republic is based on this horrible history, you are quite incorrect. I have nothing against buildings constructed during the communist period, or any other dark period in history, as long as they are aesthetically pleasing. This one isn't. It's just simply ugly.

And in the respect of people like my friend and all she has suffered, I couldn't give a toss about your opinion here, especially if you are going to insult me just like you did.

The building is gone just like communism. Please learn to live with it.


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## Ukraine

I believe that communism isn't bad...its just that the dictators used this wonderful ideology to feed themselves with power, and this is why Communism always failed to prove itself in a large scale...because the idea of it is wonderful but it always seemed like this type of government fell into the devil's hand. This is why i don't trust communism or socialism anymore.

Nico_Uru : Your pointless comments make me want to cry. Why keeping such an ugly looking building like that? This building represents shame to the USSR. We should destroy all memories from the soviet union since it hasn't brought anything good to us anyway. USSR brought genocides,fear,war,thirst of power,brainwashing,mind control, Bullshit propaganda etc. Go to the metro areas of Moscow, Kiev, Minsk and look for yourself how ugly are those apartments and how ugly and industrialized most of the parts of these cities are which were once beautiful historical cities of the old Kievan Rus' ( all thanks to Communism)


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## Nico_Uru

_Justme_

Your point would be relevant if I ever defended the DDR regime as a good regime, I haven't. So again, stop with the red herrings. You consistently misunderstand the thrust of this conversation in your ideological belief in the inherent 'evil' of communism and the DDR. My point, which you seem totally intellectually incapable of understanding is this:

The PdR was torn down as a political act by capital to signal the 'defeat' of socialism and East German identity. In its place, capital-it must be capital, since it is privately financed-is reconstituting a pro-capitalist, pro-hierarchal edifice in the middle of Berlin to denote the victory of the liberal order of the 19th century; thus, the full circle of history, or as Fukuyama calls it the 'End of History' has come to the heart of Berlin, denoting that the deviation of the 20th century is over. However, that edifice also represents a regime that represented one of the most barbarous and uncivilized eras of Europe's history largely instigated by its revisionist aspirations. East Germany was no angelic regime and I never defended it as such. However, the DDR's record is not even close to that of the Reich. In addition, within the context of the Cold War, the DDR's record is not that different and in many cases better than most other capitalist societies, particularly in the developing world. Basically, I think that rebuilding the palace is a regression back to a mentality and an era that should have been left back in 1918 and it highlights that as long as you are 'on the right side of history', i.e. capitalism, liberalism, etc., your transgressions can be overlooked.


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## Kampflamm

> The PdR was torn down as a political act by capital to signal the 'defeat' of socialism and East German identity. In its place, capital-it must be capital, since it is privately financed-is reconstituting a pro-capitalist, pro-hierarchal edifice in the middle of Berlin to denote the victory of the liberal order of the 19th century


Lame. WGermany has never attempted to somehow rub the defeat of Communism in the face of Ossis. The PdR was full of asbestos and something had to be done with it. Having a bowling alley in the center of the city wasn't good enough in the eyes of some citizens so they decided to call for the reconstruction of the Prussian palace. Here's to them. :cheers:

You have to try and leave the 20th century. Communism is non-existant and there is no "capital" which seeks to build memorials to its victory. It's just regular people who want to rebuild or build good looking buildings.


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## Nico_Uru

Kampflamm said:


> Lame. _WGermany has never attempted to somehow rub the defeat of Communism in the face of Ossis._ The PdR was full of asbestos and something had to be done with it. Having a bowling alley in the center of the city wasn't good enough in the eyes of some citizens so they decided to call for the reconstruction of the Prussian palace. Here's to them. :cheers:
> 
> _You have to try and leave the 20th century._Communism is non-existant and there is no "capital" which seeks to build memorials to its victory. It's just regular people who want to rebuild or build good looking buildings.


I see you lack a sense of irony, because the two comments you make actually contradict each other and support my point. Since you won't understand it, I will point out how. Your second statement, _"You have to try and leave the 20th century."_ is exactly in contradiction to the first one, _"WGermany has never attempted to somehow rub the defeat of Communism in the face of Ossis."_. How? You are saying to the 'Ossies' that they were on the wrong side of history and that you won. Ergo, they have to deal with it and now you get to make the rules. 

Secondly, the so-called 'common people', do they have billions of dollars to reconstruct the palace do they? Who are these 'common people'? I don't take these terms as is, as if they are self-evident because they clearly are not. In addition, if you don't believe in the existence of capital, then I wonder where investment funds comes from and who makes the decisions as to where those funds should be allocated? If you really think this about aesthetics of the building alone and not about its political significance is the reason behind its demolition, then its a metaphysical divide that we cannot bridge. Thirdly, you assume the PdR had no popular support, it clearly did with the manifestations to save the building and many 'Ossies' were offended by the tone of the discussion surrounding the building. Fourthly, the building was renovated in the sense that all the abestos was taken out and was already being used a a cultural facility so...your point is what? 

Also, thank you for agreeing with me about the Reich, I assume your lack of rebuttal is tacit acceptance of its points.


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## Kampflamm

> How? You are saying to the 'Ossies' that they were on the wrong side of history and that you won. Ergo, they have to deal with it and now you get to make the rules.


What? :sly: My post simply referred to your Politburoesque comment about "capital" wanting to rebuild the palace in order to show the Ossis who's boss (that rhetoric can also be found on this site). And yes, to some extent "we" (ie the democratic society that Germans are living in these days) do get to make the rules. Parliament voted to rebuild the palace...isn't democracy just awesome?



> Fourthly, the building was renovated in the sense that all the abestos was taken out and was already being used a a cultural facility so...your point is what?


The PdR was a shell, nothing more. So calling it a "renovation" is laughable to say the least.


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## joamox

Nico_Uru said:


> 1) The Reich was at the heart of inter-imperialist rivalries of the early 20th century that directly led to WWI.
> 2) The Palace, as the _effective_ seat of the Prussian government, was the nexus of the terror that spread throughout Europe, i.e. Chemical warfare, institutionalized racism, rape, etc.
> 3) The ideology of the Reich, in part, helped lead to the Nazi terror of the WWII.


Forgive me as a non-German to butt in on this discussion, and I do understand some of the arguments for keeping the Kulturpalast, but this set of conclusions confuse me a bit. 
The Hohenzollerns ruled as Prussian kings from this palace since 1701, correct? and the palace as it is intended to be reconstructed, minus dome was completed by mid-18th century, so why is that building intrinsically linked to WWI? Its seems quite arbitrary what you choose to associate an historic building with. When the French look at Versailles, they dont see absolutism and countless wars, do they? They just think of it as a monument to French culture. That surely is why some Germans want to re-erect the palace not as a momument to intolerance, but to German culture.


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## Darryl

Nico, you are needlessly politicizing this issue. I can guarantee you that rebuilding the Schloss has absolutely nothing to do with glorifying the Prussian regime. Is is a purely aesthetic decision. Berlin is "aesthetically-challenged" in areas, and they are simply trying to make the city nicer on the eyes. The area there by the Dom and Unter den Linden has a nice collection of beautiful pre-war buildings and they simply want to add to that collection to further beautify the area. Regardless of how negative that time period may have been politically, they made pretty buildings back then. Period. 

The Palast was butt ugly and I'm glad it's gone. If you cannot detach yourself from politicizing structures, you shouldn't mourn much for the DDR and it's (awful ugly) architectural heritage in Berlin, as there are plenty of vomit-inducing, eyesore communist buildings left in Berlin to admire.


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## Ji-Ja-Jot

@nico
btw: Imagelinking without permisson of corbis-pictures is a licence-violation as well as a violation against the exploitation right of the corbis-website (and rightly so) and the result can be a forfeit(money).-even if you left the watermark inside.


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## Nico_Uru

*Kamp*

You are a walking, talking contradiction. If you cannot see the contradiction in your response, then I cannot help you. And, what I meant by 'renovation' was that all the asbestos was taken out, you stated that it was asbestos ridden and had to be destroyed. You misrepresent the facts and simply are not consistent in your own arguments. 

_so why is that building intrinsically linked to WWI? Its seems quite arbitrary what you choose to associate an historic building with. _

Because the building was intrinsically linked to the Prussian autocracy as the effective seat of government during WWI and before. I am not associating anything to the building other than what it was meant to represent: it represented the Prussian state and since the Kaiser was the head of state, the building, since it was his residence, represented the end of the line for the responsibility of the deeds of the Reich. 

_Nico, you are needlessly politicizing this issue._

No, virtually everything is inherently political. I suggest you read the quote in my signature, and to say that something isn't political is the height of the political. I would not be offended by the demolition of the Palast if a new building, representing a new Germany went up, but in my opinion it is political because instead of creating something new they went back to recreate a discredited building and its discredited regime. Symbolism is very important.


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## Tiaren

Guys, just let Nico_Urdu talk... It's his problem, not our's! XD 
Coming new to skyscrapercity and having (with his 21 posts) nothing better to do here, than argueing and complaining about an actually wonderful project of bringing worldculture together in one place, just behind three reconstructed baroque facades, just says everything... And the way he argues says everything as well. He's got issues...


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## joamox

Nico_Uru said:


> *Kamp*
> it represented the Prussian state and since the Kaiser was the head of state, the building, since it was his residence, represented the end of the line for the responsibility of the deeds of the Reich.


It represented the Prussian state, sure, just like Versailles represented French absolutism, nowadays the two need not represent anything but the accomplishments of German and French culture respectively. 
I still dont see why this palace has to be exclusively associated with the decisions that led to WWI. Besides anything, it was built before the time of the Reich.


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## vittorio tauber

Well, when someone quotes Žižek, whose prose is a means of intellectual intimidation that actually says nothing that couldn't be said in a bunch of words, then no wonder he's a sort of backward communist troll in an age when analytic philosophy and neurosciences have gotten rid of all that post-structuralist psychoanalytic marxist-leninist crap that used to be the philosophical fashion in the 70s. Slavoj is basically a revered maverick. We've come a long way since.

Back to architecture, the Palast der Republik was Scheisse, and I'm proud I first signed for the Wiederaufbau of the Hohenzollern Castle back in 1993 during my first trip to Berlin - for what it's worth.


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## Nico_Uru

_It represented the Prussian state, sure, just like Versailles represented French absolutism, nowadays the two need not represent anything but the accomplishments of German and French culture respectively. I still dont see why this palace has to be exclusively associated with the decisions that led to WWI. Besides anything, it was built before the time of the Reich._

Because the Palace represents the historical trajectory that led to WWI under the Prussian system of governance and its own pathologies. WWI did not happen in a vacuum, the ideology of the Kaiser and the Reich did not occur in a vacuum, they did not just suddenly emerge; therefore, the Palace represents the political nexus of that historical legacy. Lastly, during WWI the state was a dictatorship under the rule of the Kaiser, and therefore the decisions that led to the disasters of that war occurred in that building. Far more was decided in that Palace than was decided in the PdR, which was basically a rubber-stamp parliament. 

I've said my piece on this issue, you know where I stand. The PdR has been demolished, the Palace will be built I cannot change that. However, I think it says a lot of what values modern German society has. All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.


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## MPOWER

Read a book about the Prussian history and open your eyes little child..
Prussia was a great state. Without Prussia Germany would have nerver been created, Prussia was key to a Grand Germany. Prussian virtues lead germany and europe into a new age before power crazed guys like Wilhem II and Hitler ruined it!
The palace represent the whole prussian era not only a few years! So i support a reconstruction of the Palace!

PS: Im from Bavaria..


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## Justme

Nico_Uru said:


> _Justme_
> 
> Your point would be relevant if I ever defended the DDR regime as a good regime, I haven't. So again, stop with the red herrings. You consistently misunderstand the thrust of this conversation in your ideological belief in the inherent 'evil' of communism and the DDR. My point, which you seem totally intellectually incapable of understanding is this:
> 
> The PdR was torn down as a political act by capital to signal the 'defeat' of socialism and East German identity. In its place, capital-it must be capital, since it is privately financed-is reconstituting a pro-capitalist, pro-hierarchal edifice in the middle of Berlin to denote the victory of the liberal order of the 19th century; thus, the full circle of history, or as Fukuyama calls it the 'End of History' has come to the heart of Berlin, denoting that the deviation of the 20th century is over. However, that edifice also represents a regime that represented one of the most barbarous and uncivilized eras of Europe's history largely instigated by its revisionist aspirations. East Germany was no angelic regime and I never defended it as such. However, the DDR's record is not even close to that of the Reich. In addition, within the context of the Cold War, the DDR's record is not that different and in many cases better than most other capitalist societies, particularly in the developing world. Basically, I think that rebuilding the palace is a regression back to a mentality and an era that should have been left back in 1918 and it highlights that as long as you are 'on the right side of history', i.e. capitalism, liberalism, etc., your transgressions can be overlooked.


:lol: Absolutely not. The building was torn down because it was ugly. It was an eyesore and it was unloved. The historical palace is being rebuilt because it was beautiful, because many people missed it for the iconic construction in it's previous location.

Basically, ugly out, beauty in.

There are still many old DDR buildings in Berlin, as there are Nazi buildings. The good looking ones remain.

Life is a lot more simple than you try to make of it. Sit back, have a beer and stop trying to analyze everything.


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## Justme

Ukraine said:


> I believe that communism isn't bad...its just that the dictators used this wonderful ideology to feed themselves with power, and this is why Communism always failed to prove itself in a large scale...because the idea of it is wonderful but it always seemed like this type of government fell into the devil's hand. This is why i don't trust communism or socialism anymore.


I agree. The principle with communism is not bad. It's just that it can never work. A much simplified example why can be seen here:

* A communist country is created. Many people may not agree with it, but they must have no choice. After all, if they choose to change it, the communist state ceases to exist.

* Even if the communist state comes into being in a peaceful, bloodless way (which rarely happens), the problem is that not all the world is communist, so those who don't want to live in a communist country would leave. This usually includes the well educated and highly skilled people. The engineers, the designers, highly skilled surgeons etc. Why? Because if given the choice to live in a country which does not reward them for their hard work or skill, but the country next door does, then they may choose to move.

* This causes a "brain drain", and the economy suffers terribly, so the government must pose border restrictions to try and stop the exodus. They can't do what capitalist countries may try when similar brain drains happen, such as decrease taxes or other incentives, because this denies the principles of communism where all are equal. Closing the borders is the only choice.

* These border restrictions create an additional conflict for the highly skilled citizens, who not only face significantly lower wages and rewards for their hard work, but also virtual imprisonment. So, more skilled workers try to leave the country.

* This forces the government to enact harsher penalties and restrictions. Not only are border controls tightened, but travel restrictions are forced onto the population to make it even harder to reach the border.

* This in return makes it more desirable to "escape" into a free society. Now, not only are high skilled workers wanting to leave, many working class citizens also feel restricted.

* As the regime becomes more and more controlled and restricted, more people become desperate to leave. Simple restrictions are not enough, so the government must now threaten violence, death or imprisonment for anyone trying to leave the country.

* As you can imagine, this will just make it more important to leave, so death or imprisonment is simply not enough. People would care about the safety of their families and the need to escape would become higher, so the government would have to start threatening the families themselves. Nothing scares parents more than threats to their children and now we have a truly dangerous and evil government which will do anything to retain the control on their population. Those hard core communists, who still believe strongly in their system, would turn to draconian methods to ensure the system retains. Anyone, working class or skilled, who in the slightest way is feared to disagree with the system will be reported to the police. This in turns creates a society of total fear.

* Fear in the government turns into paranoiac proportions. And any form of criticism of the government has long been banned. This controls all form of free speech, art, music, literature and society. Society itself has turned into one of fear and poverty. There are not enough highly skilled people in the country and even the working classes are not inspired - only fear keeps them working.

* Finally, through the economy, which always is threatening to collapse, the ecology and environment is neglected. There is no money to care about pollution or ecological needs. Factories are inefficient and the environment suffers greatly. During the communist period it was so clear how much worse the environment was in those countries.

This maybe a totally simplified set of steps, but in effect it is how every attempt at communism has resulted in. What Nico_Uru doesn't seem to understand, or at least acknowledge, is that if he lives in a free society, he is free to speak against that society and of his mind. People will debate with him, but that is as far as it will go. If the society he so cherishes is created, no form of free speech would then be tolerated including his own.

It is a path we must not fall down again.


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## erbse

What's all the fuss here about? Everybody should be happy this eyesore called 'palace' crazy is gone.
Whatever might replace it (I'm not too happy they won't reconstruct the whole Stadtschloss).


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## Kampflamm

> All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.


You really do have some serious issues. Why don't you come to our little racist country and see the people for yourself.

I don't blame buildings for the people that lived in them. Had the PdR looked like some of the buildings on Karl-Marx-Allee I probably would have been in favor of keeping it since EGermany's "national tradition" style represents some of the finest post-WW2-architecture around.


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## joamox

Nico_Uru said:


> I've said my piece on this issue, you know where I stand. The PdR has been demolished, the Palace will be built I cannot change that. However, I think it says a lot of what values modern German society has. All I can say to those who love the new palace is enjoy the glorification of genocide, mass murder, autocracy, atavism, racism and belligerence in the so-called 'new Germany'.


Well, you sure have made your point clear, The only thing I would add is that characterising 200 years of Prussian monarchy as reducible to genocide, mass murder, autocracy etc etc. is a dramatic statement, simplistic and tied to a rigid cognitive schema at best, highly offensive and misleading at worst.


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## erbse

Indeed. And you could say way more terrible things about other empires, such as the Brit or the French one.

But would anyone consider to tear down Buckingham Palace or all Empire style buildings?


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## Justme

To add to this, I would like to point out that I would imagine few people here would oppose the Fernsehenturm, which was also build by the DDR and had public viewing points for the masses. Why, because it's quite cool and looks good.

The Palace of the Republic is simply horrible and ugly. Thankfully it's gone, and what will be in it's place will be many times better. Though I must admit I see the point of view from those who would prefer a modern building. Modern or a replica of the original palace, either is good for me as long as the ugly Palace of the Republic departs Berlin.


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## CrayZD

Justme said:


> To add to this, I would like to point out that I would imagine few people here would oppose the Fernsehenturm, which was also build by the DDR and had public viewing points for the masses. Why, because it's quite cool and looks good.


Good example... the television tower was built explicitly as a landmark that overtops any other building in Berlin and is easily visible from the west. It has been a much more powerful symbol of the GDR than the Palace of the Republic ever was, since its appearance and symbolic power was directed right towards the 'enemy'.

So if the true intention behind tearing down the PdR was to destroy the symbols of socialism, why didn't they start with the Fernsehturm?


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## erbse

Their intention was to tear down an ugly building and replace it with a beautiful one which can be used without worries (thinking about the asbestos issue).


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## CrayZD

I hope that everyone's got it now. To fear the emergence of a new Prussian-German nationalism because a socialist 'palace' has been torn down and a former Prussian palace is going to be (partially) rebuilt... this is simply ridiculous.


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## Nico_Uru

Living in a world of mirrors and appearances are we people?


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## joamox

Arent we all?










Personally I dont think it looked bad


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## erbse

It looked bad.










































































(all images by Wiki)


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## Horatio Caine

I love it. The old building was the eye-sore of eye-sores. 

I love those old pictures of Berlin from the year 1900. Berling should really destroy everything that was built after that and replace the old buildings with that. 
Then they could build skyscrapers on the outskirts. 

Start of with a clean sheet.


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## CrayZD

It was not only ugly, but also unusable. It was built of asbestos concrete, asbestos-containing materials were used for the insulation as well. The fibre concentration in the air inside was far above the permissible value.

Refurbishment would have been even more expensive then a reconstruction of the City Palace. So what should it be then? A memorial?


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## Nico_Uru

_Refurbishment would have been even more expensive then a reconstruction of the City Palace. So what should it be then? A memorial?_

Evidence for that? It was already deemed safe since there were already art exhibitions in the building. So again, prove it. Thousands of buildings that were infested with Asbestos have been refurbished and are in use all over the world and I doubt it would cost as much as a new Palace!

*erbse*

Of course it is going to look back after years of neglect...nice misrepresentation of the Palast.


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## erbse

It didn't look much better when it was still maintained. Propaganda through Alpina white.


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## freeksregistration

I really like the rebuilding of the castle. What a shame it was destroyed en replaced. Buth I don't like the modern wall on the back of the castle.


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## Nico_Uru

erbse said:


> It didn't look much better when it was still maintained. Propaganda through Alpina white.


Uh-huh and the Palace is not a piece of propaganda...:nuts: Your post was a piece of propaganda by misrepresenting the Palast.


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## erbse

What are you talking about? Go and have some nice stuff for dinner.


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## Justme

Nico_Uru said:


> _Your point fails when you actually talk rubbish. Your statement is a bit like you claiming a blue shirt is actually red, when everyone else see's the red shirt execpt you. This is your delusion._
> 
> Your* ignorance* is astounding, the fact is the "shirt is red" is socially constructed. Red, blue, etc. do not signify the actual colour of x, our socially accepted notion of what red or blue is. There was a famous experiment where a person was put in a room where they showed colours. The colour they showed was lets say, in our parlance, blue. The entire audience said, "red", eventually most of the individuals started to say red, even though they "knew" it was "blue". Who is being delusional here then? Because I do not conform with your, and the majority's "redist" interpretation? Unable, and unwilling to accept the world of the apparent?


I love this one, "ignorance". Which is defined as a state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to *subjectively ignore information.* :lol: You certainly are ignoring everything everyone posts here.

If I am ignorant in your mind simply because I ignore _you_, then it proves my point entirely.

You walked right into that one.

:lol:


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## erbse

We need that Nico guy for the German forum. Bringing entertainment to a whole new level.


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## MikaGe

Geez, thing's been goin deep in the last 4 pages...

Ehhmm, just wanna asked why the original castle and Berliner Dom appear darker in those old pics? The dom looks better in reddish tone, imo.

One more thing, I think it's not necessary to remove those commie buildings. I believe there are people gonnabe appreciating it, including me. The uniformity & dullness in massive scale somehow evoke a strange sensation. Whenever I think about Berlin, I never imagine a city with baroque architecture. The ideology perhaps has been obsolete these days, but not the byproducts, such as design & architecture.


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## Nico_Uru

_Oh, you don't?_

Where have I said I didn't? My implication by pointing that out to JustMe is that I am engaging a partial, political-ideological discussion; at least I have the ability to concede that. I do not believe it is possible to discuss any issues from an "objective" position, however, that is exactly what JustMe is TRYING to do since he has "truth" on his side. So accuse me of something that I did or said not what you think I said or did. 

_I love this one, "ignorance". Which is defined as a state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information. You certainly are ignoring everything everyone posts here._

Tard-box, if I were ignoring what everyone said on this forum, I wouldn't have even bothered to answer anyone's questions. I heard what some people had to say, and I think its crap. You are still engaging in a logical fallacy to support your non-existent argument. 

_If I am ignorant in your mind simply because I ignore you, then it proves my point entirely._

Uh-huh you are more than ignorant because your words contradict your actions...how stupid are you?


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## Jimmy McShane

Is this construction going to involve taking the balcony off the Staatsratsgebäude?


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## Tiaren

^^
No, it stays were it is.
Will be funny in the future to see the reconstruction and the original right beside each other.


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## Justme

Nico_Uru said:


> _Oh, you don't?_
> 
> Where have I said I didn't? My implication by pointing that out to JustMe is that I am engaging a partial, political-ideological discussion; at least I have the ability to concede that. I do not believe it is possible to discuss any issues from an "objective" position, however, that is exactly what JustMe is TRYING to do since he has "truth" on his side. So accuse me of something that I did or said not what you think I said or did.
> 
> _I love this one, "ignorance". Which is defined as a state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information. You certainly are ignoring everything everyone posts here._
> 
> Tard-box, if I were ignoring what everyone said on this forum, I wouldn't have even bothered to answer anyone's questions. I heard what some people had to say, and I think its crap. You are still engaging in a logical fallacy to support your non-existent argument.
> 
> _If I am ignorant in your mind simply because I ignore you, then it proves my point entirely._
> 
> Uh-huh you are more than ignorant because your words contradict your actions...how stupid are you?


Well, look at it this way.

I get to look at the new Palace and enjoy it's beauty.

You get to look at the new Palace and ponder all your political ideological battles. 

I'll walk away happy. You'll probably walk away in misery, angry at the loss of communism and entertain your fantasies regarding the rise of imperialism

Maybe you should lighten up a little. :cheers:


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## erbse

^ Well said.


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## taboe

This whole project is a disgrace for the city of Berlin. In stead of opting for a spectacular modern building or just renovating the old building, they choose to build a Disney castle... This kind of project just makes me sick hno:

What do the Berliners themselves think about this? And I mean the general public, not just on this forum...


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## CrayZD

As a matter of fact, it depends on who is asking.

*1.*
Infratest dimap, renowned German polling firm, but the poll was done in order of the Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V. that supports the reconstruction. Anyway, one should assume Infratest dimap to be neutral.

Representative poll among the population of Berlin, December 2008:
What kind of development do you prefer for the Schlossplatz area?

58% Rebuild the Stadtschloss
34% Build something completely new
05% PdR shouldn't have been demolished
03% Don't know

Pro reconstruction, by East/West

East Berlin 51%
West Berlin 63%

Pro reconstruction, by age (excerpts)

18-25y 71%
25-30y 69%

^^That's pretty interesting indeed!

*2.*
Super Illu, an East-German popular magazine

Representative poll in East Berlin, December 2008:
Rebuild the Stadtschloss?

35% Yes
61% No
04% Don't know

To understand the results (especially the pro-modern faction), one should know how Germans think about public investment. Among the 34% who say 'build something completely new', I'd estimate that there are at least 25% who mean 'build something inexpensive'. So they don't take part in the discussion 'modern vs historical', but they dismiss a representative building in general because they think their taxes are just squandered for it.


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## redstone

Many old landmarks and even entire cities and towns (or whole neighbourhoods) had been destroyed in the bombardments of WW2. And many had been rebuilt as it was, and there are some others which are demolished and rebuilt.

Example, the old city centre of Warsaw, which had been rebuilt, with the same bricks soon after. Old palaces and castles were rebuilt as late as the 1990s. 

If the said building is (or was) of historical / cultural / religious / special significance, I rather have it rebuilt. But for me, the rebuilding must be as much as possible, an exact duplicate of the building. 

The old building is gone, but if the building has had a very significant place in the history of the city, I feel that a rebuilding is better than a new building which is nothing related to the old one. At the least, people can still see it as it was last time.

I don't understand why the mods are not doing anything about this political discussion in this thread. From a thread about the reconstruction of an old building, it had became a debate on communism vs democracy, etc.


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## erbse

The political discussion is ok in this case, I'd say. The thread isn't exactly about the reconstruction itself, but the process of the PdR demolition and the ongoing debate what should follow.


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## Kampflamm

taboe said:


> This whole project is a disgrace for the city of Berlin. In stead of opting for a spectacular modern building or just renovating the old building, they choose to build a Disney castle... This kind of project just makes me sick hno:


How is it a Disney castle? If we had built a copy of Versailles in the middle of Berlin, I could get your point but that obviously isn't going to be the case.


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## Pablo323

Whoah.

:uh:


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## taboe

Kampflamm said:


> How is it a Disney castle? If we had built a copy of Versailles in the middle of Berlin, I could get your point but that obviously isn't going to be the case.


The original one was made by skilled artisans, who spent all their lives working on their skills. Paintings, decorations, statues, etc which are made now will be copies, no matter what, and furthermore the building techniques are very different, so I don't see how this building can be considered a valuable addition to the Berlin landscape... 

(Disney may have been a bit exaggerated though)


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## Seanna

Air Jordan 1 Retro High Ostrich



Here's another Air Jordan I Retro High colorway, this time with a sleek all-black look. Three grades of material have been used for the upper: mesh, full-grain leather, and ostrich leather, made popular by the Ostrich Dunk Lows. They are scheduled for release on July 7, 2009, but you can preorder a pair now on RMK.
Full size pics at Air 23.


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## erbse

^ Nice palace.



(Could someone please delete that crap? :rant


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## Utopian

It was rather impressive, seeing the Palast der Republik being torn down last year. I guess the site is another empty place in Berlin right now.

I am curious what the new Stadtschloss will look like, especially after I read that the interiour will be completely modern, and also the eastern facade (facing the Spree) will not be a reconstruction, but a glass facade. That's kind of understandable, hence the original eastern facade was partially renaissance; remaining parts of an earlier Stadtschloss (which would be extremely hard to reconstruct).

I hope though that the Schloss won't look as bright and shiny as they depict on the models. On the other hand, when it was originally built around 1700, it would also have looked brand new...


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## CrayZD

I think that's a problem with sandstone. It looks very bright when it's new, darkening naturally over the years - at least if it's not specially treated in any way. We are used to seeing it dark (like the facade of the Berliner Dom), but I guess that formerly every building looked like the rebuilt Frauenkirche in Dresden, for example.


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## Kampflamm

One last point...if the PdR had looked like this, I wouldn't have had a problem with keeping it:


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## Kampflamm

apinamies said:


> I don't understand why Germans think that GDR was bad thing. I'm sure that East Germany was great place to life. If were German I would be proud of my country's history.


Yeah, it was so awesome that they had to build a wall to keep people from coming in. :lol:


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## Dr.Mabuse

Kampflamm said:


> Yeah, it was so awesome that they had to build a wall to keep people from coming in. :lol:


:rofl:

You may think that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a great place to live in aswell. 
Here a funny thing i readed once. Sometimes tourists from china visit NorthKorea to get a feeling how china was back 40 years ago. They see it, shock and don't stay for long in North Korea :lol:

*edit* found the text 

Chinesische Touristengruppen reisen nach Nordkorea, um sich in einer anachronistischen Welt zu gruseln. "So war es bei uns während der Kulturrevolution", sagen sie, und beeilen sich, in die Lichter- und Glitzerwelt ihrer Heimat zurückzukehren. 
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,626966,00.html

Scientists say Kim Jong-il has a secret. During night North Korea disappears. They don't know how the loved leader do that! ^^


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## Union.SLO

^^ But he's not precise enough. Barely noticeable spot of light reflects out of Pyongyang.:baeh3:


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## Justme

Concrete Stereo said:


> great comment on erasing the traces of an unwanted history


It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.


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## Justme

apinamies said:


> I don't understand why Germans think that GDR was bad thing. I'm sure that East Germany was great place to life. If were German I would be proud of my country's history.


Use your head a little before writing. If the DDR was such a great thing, why did they need to build a fücken great big wall to keep the people in like prisoners, guard that wall, and shoot anyone who tries to escape.


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## Kampflamm

Justme said:


> It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.


And because it was full of asbestos.


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## DHLawrence

Justme said:


> It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.


This transcends politics. I'm quite left-leaning and I won't miss this concrete block in the slightest.


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## Concrete Stereo

Justme said:


> It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.


It seems you're the one politizing my statement. I have the same opinion about Zeppelinfeld in Nürenberg (or Prora at Insel Rügen, Palacul Populi in Bucharest, Linnahalle in Talinn) - these are traces, partly scars of history. Of course, when two states become one, many buildings become obsolete (there's a left-over east-german media campus in Berlin which has been unuccupied for 20 years now and is currently only housing Club Rechenzentrum). But I think - architecturally speaking - they have missed an opportunity to make a monument on the unity of Germany - instead of making a statement of assimilation. And just: to make architecture with great meaning. Now it's tabula rasa all over again.

The same discussion can be had about the Plattenbausiedlungen - this is 60 years of history, generations grew up in it, these are very meaningful places to very many people. There's nothing as changeable as the meaning of places and of architecture - and history taught us it's not always a good plan to follow fashion by bulldozer (there's a lot of nostalgia about our old cities - but we forgot they were considered a shithole and just got better). It's better to adapt than to rebuild.


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## Karasek

Justme said:


> Use your head a little before writing. If the DDR was such a great thing, why did they need to build a fücken great big wall to keep the people in like prisoners, guard that wall, and shoot anyone who tries to escape.


And since the wall came down more than 2 million people left the region. Obviously it's not much better now.


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## Justme

Concrete Stereo said:


> It seems you're the one politizing my statement. I have the same opinion about Zeppelinfeld in Nürenberg (or Prora at Insel Rügen, Palacul Populi in Bucharest, Linnahalle in Talinn) - these are traces, partly scars of history. Of course, when two states become one, many buildings become obsolete (there's a left-over east-german media campus in Berlin which has been unuccupied for 20 years now and is currently only housing Club Rechenzentrum). But I think - architecturally speaking - they have missed an opportunity to make a monument on the unity of Germany - instead of making a statement of assimilation. And just: to make architecture with great meaning. Now it's tabula rasa all over again.
> 
> The same discussion can be had about the Plattenbausiedlungen - this is 60 years of history, generations grew up in it, these are very meaningful places to very many people. There's nothing as changeable as the meaning of places and of architecture - and history taught us it's not always a good plan to follow fashion by bulldozer (there's a lot of nostalgia about our old cities - but we forgot they were considered a shithole and just got better). It's better to adapt than to rebuild.


I couldn't care less if something is meaningful or not to some small minority group. If it's ugly, it goes. This building was ugly, and it's gone. No politics from my side.


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## Justme

Karasek said:


> And since the wall came down more than 2 million people left the region. Obviously it's not much better now.


Really, is this your own distorted version of history?

At 1989 just before the wall came down, the population of East Berlin was 1,279,212 and West Berlin was 2,130,525. Now, together this makes 3,409,737

The current population estimate is 3,442,194 which, at least according to maths suggests an increase. Where on earth do you get your "more than two million" from?

As for your "Not much better now" comment, then you must think it a much better life to be shot for trying to cross a city, or imprisoned for thinking wrong thoughts. Maybe you don't really get it, but the DDR government executed people who tried to cross the city. And it was so bad in the East, that people would rather risk execution for them and their own families to get out.


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## Karasek

Justme said:


> Really, is this your own distorted version of history?
> 
> At 1989 just before the wall came down, the population of East Berlin was 1,279,212 and West Berlin was 2,130,525. Now, together this makes 3,409,737
> 
> The current population estimate is 3,442,194 which, at least according to maths suggests an increase. Where on earth do you get your "more than two million" from?
> 
> As for your "Not much better now" comment, then you must think it a much better life to be shot for trying to cross a city, or imprisoned for thinking wrong thoughts. Maybe you don't really get it, but the DDR government executed people who tried to cross the city. And it was so bad in the East, that people would rather risk execution for them and their own families to get out.



Ahm, maybe you don't know this, but the wall didn't just seperate East and West Berlin but also East and West Germany. The wall in Berlin wasn't the onlys wall errected by the Commies. And when I replied to your post you mentioned the GDR and not only Berlin. 
But, you know, if someone argues that the GDR was so bad because the system had to imprison its people the logical conclusion is that, without the wall and the Commie system, the people would stay. But they don't stay, they still leave the region. In 40 years of Communism ~4 mio people left Eastern Germany, in 20 years of Capitalism (yes, a bad word these days, I know), another ~2 mio left. That's the same horrible quota. To the people economic pressure isn't that much better than political pressure. The only difference: during Communism people "fled" the country, now they "migrate".


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## Kampflamm

I don't really get your point. Of course people have left the east since the economic conditions are better in the west. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion about how bad the SED-leadership was. After all this phenomenon can be seen throughout eastern Europe but my guess is most people are happy that they're no longer told what to do by the Communist authorities.


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## Concrete Stereo

Well, there's always still the Ostalgia back to the day things were simple, people were educated and things were done for the best for everyone (or at least that suggestion was helt high)

anyway, there's never black and white, there's just history. If you grew up in a shithole, this shithole is precious to you. To be perfectly honest, I just know the present generation and they're very happy with the current status quo of Berlin - a capital where space is dirty cheap and with enough rough edges to house the best parties of Europe. And with the offices of the best people in art, design, advertisement and architecture.

@justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location, and it would fit fine to the present Alexanderplatz area (with the mix of cummunist plattenbau and massive shopping centres). It just got very detoriated after the Wende. 


















after the Wende:









I've never seen pictures of the inside though, strangely enough. Anyone?


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## Tiaren

Concrete Stereo said:


> @justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - *but it fitted the location*...


It didn't fit the location at all! Right in the historical heart of Berlin, in between the museums and the Cathedral and most of all, as the prelude to the royal/imperial boulevard Unter den Linden it had no place there at all!

But I agree, that brand new built it wasn't ugly at all. I actually find it classy!


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## Justme

Karasek said:


> Ahm, maybe you don't know this, but the wall didn't just seperate East and West Berlin but also East and West Germany.


Well duh. Thanks for the 101 history lesson.



Karasek said:


> The wall in Berlin wasn't the onlys wall errected by the Commies. And when I replied to your post you mentioned the GDR and not only Berlin.


We were talking about DDR Berlin, not the whole country. I think the subject title of this thread also gave that away. The population drop after the wall came down was continuing even before, and it's no wonder with how the communists destroyed the local industry. 



Karasek said:


> But, you know, if someone argues that the GDR was so bad because the system had to imprison its people the logical conclusion is that, without the wall and the Commie system, the people would stay. But they don't stay, they still leave the region. In 40 years of Communism ~4 mio people left Eastern Germany, in 20 years of Capitalism (yes, a bad word these days, I know), another ~2 mio left. That's the same horrible quota. To the people economic pressure isn't that much better than political pressure. The only difference: during Communism people "fled" the country, now they "migrate".


Are you for real? The wall was put in place because people wanted to leave on mass to the far better West. There was no doubt about this. People risked their lives and many lost them trying to get out. A place must be pretty damn horrible to need a giant wall to keep people in, and guard that wall with dogs and machine guns and trip mines. And it must be so horrible living there that people would risk crossing that just to get out.

As for the loss after the wall came down, that is not because of the introduction of capitalism, but because the communist system destroyed the local economies on such a grand scale (as they have always done in every other communist nation) that there was simply no work any more. After unification, you could either sit on your thumbs in a depressed ex communist wasteland or vote with your feet and move to the far more prosperous west where work was awaiting.

The fact that the economy in the East is still so depressed after all these years shows exactly how bad the communists ran the place when they were in control.


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## Justme

Concrete Stereo said:


> Well, there's always still the Ostalgia back to the day things were simple, people were educated and things were done for the best for everyone (or at least that suggestion was helt high)


This is a common effect that most people experience. Most people, wherever they are or come from in the world, have fond memories of their youth or their past despite what actually went down.



Concrete Stereo said:


> @justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location, and it would fit fine to the present Alexanderplatz area (with the mix of cummunist plattenbau and massive shopping centres). It just got very detoriated after the Wende.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> after the Wende:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen pictures of the inside though, strangely enough. Anyone?


I have to say, even with those older photos showing it in it's prime, it's still one of the ugliest things I have ever seen in my life.


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## quomodo

Because it fits the current discussion I thought it might be useful to point out that there's an English article about the palace (with pictures of the still intact interior) just after it was closed down at spiegel.de.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,717697,00.html


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## erbse

For the Stadtschloss reconstruction project, I'd like to redirect you to this thread:

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction - "Humboldt-Forum"*


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## erbse

As many of the pics at this thread disappeared, I am reposting my post from the *Berlin Palace thread* here:


The site of the Berlin City Palace (in light red) laid over the city's urban layout of today:








Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karte_berlin_stadtschloss.png?uselang=de

Local planning area:








_Source_


An aerial view of the complex with the GDR "Palace of the Republic" still occupying the site:








https://img.morgenpost.de/img/berli...0-cv3_2-q85/PalastLuft04-DW-Berlin-Berlin.jpg
http://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article1616754/Erinnerung-an-Palast-der-Republik-verblasst.html

Comparison: A visualisation of the "Humboldt-Forum", aerial view








http://www.welt.de/kultur/article7879733/Wiederaufbau-des-Berliner-Stadtschlosses-gefaehrdet.html

The lawn in between both building phases:









The PdR in "full blossom":









The Palace visualisation at the PdR in the 1990s:








https://img.morgenpost.de/img/berlin/crop100747910/1550931693-w820-cv3_2-q85/fassadepa.jpg

Deconstruction:



















Starting construction:










Pics of the PdR demolition and more: https://www.morgenpost.de/berlin/article104940343/Erinnerung-an-Palast-der-Republik-verblasst.html
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1390928


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