# [B] Belgium | road infrastructure • autoroutes & autosnelwegen



## ChrisZwolle

Yeah i don't like that too. You see names like Doornik, Bergen, Gand en Bruges all the time. And how the hell am i suppose to know that Aix-la-Chapelle is Aachen and Montjoie is Monschau? 

Look, Brussel/Bruxelles is double-languaged, but Antwerpen and Liège are just Dutch and French. So sign em all the way, you have to know that name anyway to get there.


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## ChrisZwolle

*R0 Ring Brussel - Bruxelles - Brussels - Brüssel*
The R0 is a 76km ringroad around the Capital of Europe and Belgium. The road is mostly 2x3 lanes or more, but has a non-motorway section southeast of Brussels.

*119 photos, Picasa Webalbum*


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## De Snor

Verso said:


> What I hate by Belgian roads, is 'nationalistic' signage. How am I supposed to know that Anvers is Antwerpen, or that Luik is Liège?


Most of the Belgian population are people with a very narrow minded idea towards the 3 languages spoken in my country.
You are absolutely right about this but it is getting (finally) better...

Belgian nationalistic crap shouldn't be used in road signalisation + all signs should post the original name!


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## julesstoop

Knowing my Belgian neighbours, I suspect considerable debate in that case as to what are the "original" names...


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ They make it uselessly complicated, in fact, it's quite easy:

Use the name what the entrance city limits sign says.

So that makes Brussel/Bruxelles the only city with double names. 

But you always have those guys who don't like Dutch/French/German and keep painting on signs. Sad.


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## Josh

^^Yeah for instance, the thread title would lead to a major conflict since Dutch and German are left out. :lol:


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## hix

julesstoop said:


> Knowing my Belgian neighbours, I suspect considerable debate in that case as to what are the "original" names...


No, there is no debate about the 'original' names. The debate is should they be used everywere.
I would like to know how they do it in Switserland. Do they use the Belgian system or do they use the original name everywere in the country. Does somebody know this?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ 

http://www.autobahnen.ch/

They have pics of entire Switzerland.


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## ChrisZwolle

Looks like they have different. Here you see Genève instead of Genf, but i've also seen San Gottardo instead Gotthard, but that's because the tunnel is on 2 language areas, like Brussels.


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## hix

So, they use the same system like in Belgium? Names of cities are in the languages of the region were the sign is?


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## ChrisZwolle

No, looks like they don't. That Genève sign is in German-language area (near Bern). 

The Gotthard is from the north and San Gottardo from the south. Comparable to the Brussels situation.


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## hix

Indeed they should use that system in Belgium too, always use the original name of the city. it's too complicated for foreigners.


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## ChrisZwolle

And in the Netherlands. They sign Luik too instead of Liège. Immediatly after crossing the border, Luik is replaced by Liège, so what's the use of signing Luik at all?
However, they do use Köln and Aachen, so it's not very consequent.


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## Verso

Chris1491 said:


>


Bern-Bethlehem, I always get lost there. :lol: Yes, Swiss signage is interesting, always with original names (even the French-speaking Swiss have given up on writing places also in French, before you could see "Berne/Bern" or "Bâle/Basel", maybe there are still some on less important roads). Although it surprises me that unlike writing "Biel/Bienne" in German-, as well as in French-speaking parts of Switzerland, they always write only "Fribourg" even in German parts of CH, although it's officially bi-lingual (also Freiburg), there's more French speakers though.

I wouldn't mind places being written only in the original language, after all, if you're a German, and wanna go to Warsaw ("Warschau" in German), you're sooner or later gonna have to know it's called "Warszawa" in Polish. But it can get tricky, when a city is just mono-lingual, but some nation thinks it should be bi-lingual (in its language, of course). We all know cases like the French city of Strasbourg/Straßburg. Officially it's just French-speaking, whereas Germans think it should also be German-speaking. Then it's easy only to write "Bruxelles" (and perhaps also "Brussel"), without "Brüssel" in Germany, but it gets embarrasing in cases like Strasbourg/Straßburg, so maybe it's still better to use both, local and original expressions.

I hope I didn't bore you to death.


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## ChrisZwolle

In Germany and German-speaking Belgium, you see signs Lüttich too.


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## hix

Verso said:


> I hope I didn't bore you to death.


No, it was very intresting.


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## ChrisZwolle

Time for another video :cheers:

this time;

*The Verviers Circuit*

A steep downhill from the Hautes Fagnes (High Moors) through and actually over the city of Verviers, which is very curvy and windy with circuit walls. Anyone ever driven this Autoroute would remember this section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-mhGLgboLw


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## ChrisZwolle

let's go to the next page.


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## ChrisZwolle

*E314 Leuven - Geleen (NL)*
This is a serie of the important E314 in Central Eastern Belgium. It is one of the two main routes to the German Ruhrvalley. (the other being the E40). However, this route is not as packed with trucks as the E313.

*104 pics, Picasa Webalbum*


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## Verso

Chris1491 said:


> let's go to the next page.


How do you know? Does each page contain exactly 20 posts? :sly:

Anyway, nice photos you made. That's some awesome cut-and-cover, actually looking like a tunnel  and as I can see, there's a stretch with hard shoulder on the left. I just don't understand what that crossed out exit number 19 means (by Herent).


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## Timon91

^^I once drove on the dutch A67, one of the 2 dutch highways that go from Germany to Belgium. These roads are 2×2, with one lane full of lorries. Most of these trucks are heading for Antwerp harbour or the Oostende ferry.


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## convalescence

x-type said:


> of course because all the trucks from Europe (except E, P, F and partially I) go to ferry in Calais via Belgium because it's cheaper to pay belgian toll than french


i can approve it, i was often at e40 and the whole traffic between brussel and oostende is horrible, but is there any toll for trucks in belgium?


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## Wallaroo

Chriszwolle said:


> Belgium style of road maintenance
> 
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> 
> E42 Liège - Namur


I think it depends on weather you are in Vallonia or Flandern. When I was in Flandern last summer, I was very impressed by all the motorways and ordinary roads I saw, and they were the best I have ever seen in Europe. That there also are lightpoles on every km of motorway doesnt hurt either...


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## ChrisZwolle

Heavy traffic accidents happen almost daily in Belgium, because the roads are too crowded with trucks. This one happened today on the E17


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## Thermo

Looks like Chriszwolle is making great publicity for our country in this thread... Has some Belgian ever done something bad to you?


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## ChrisZwolle

No offense to Belgium, I love Belgium 

However, no one else posts some in this topic, so I do it


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## Majestic

I once drove a belgian motorway - all that I remember is they were perfectly plain and straight, and the lightning was great, it was very light even though I drove at night.


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## Glodenox

A journalist has been taking pictures of how truck drivers are driving their truck yesterday... The pictures were clear enough to explain the accidents that take place: one was reading, the other one was watching at another truck driver next to him, one was driving with his feet on the steering wheel, another one was calling and looking around in his cabin for something, and the list goes on...

As long as police isn't going to pay attention to these reckless drivers, more accidents are going to take place. And the economical damage of one such accident can often go in the hundreds of thousands of Euro, so it's really worth taking care of!

Apart from that, I personally don't have many bad experiences with our Belgian motorways. There are some very smooth ones, there are some rough ones, some need to have their lay-out changed, some are perfect. There's a bit of everything. The lights really help making everything more secure, but are of course expensive.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## Jeroen669

Glodenox said:


> A journalist has been taking pictures of how truck drivers are driving their truck yesterday... The pictures were clear enough to explain the accidents that take place: one was reading, the other one was watching at another truck driver next to him, one was driving with his feet on the steering wheel, another one was calling and looking around in his cabin for something, and the list goes on...


This is, unfortunately, one of the reasons why they have forbidden cruise control. I still don't get why this is so worse in Belgium compared to other countries. The police is quite strict for truck drivers. If you get stopped by the police they'll always find something to fine you.


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## convalescence

i personally don't like the belgian interchanges, they are often built confusing

i once drove from maastricht to verviers and at the E25/E40 interchange near liege we suddenly had to stop on the road, this can't be motorway standard! 

here you can see the situation when you come from maastricht (north) and want to go at the roundabout...
http://maps.google.de/maps?q=herstal&ie=UTF8&ll=50.681881,5.659402&spn=0.001628,0.005021&t=k&z=18


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## Jeroen669

Yeah, there are a lot of horrible interchanges in Belgium. Cheratte (the one you're reffering to) must be one of the worst.


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## Verso

The same is in the northwestern corner of the Milan motorway ring. Quite scary.


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## convalescence

another horrible situation are the narrow curves at the e42 in Verviers! there are speed limits of 100 km/h and at one narrow curve even 80 (worse than the one at the picture) and you really can't drive faster...does anyone know how many accidents happen at the e42 through verviers?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ I made a video of that section of the E42. Quite a spectacular descent.


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## x-type

indeed! it should get slow lane. what is the speed of the trucks there? is it under 60 km/h?
and i've been expecting runnaway tracks all the time and then only one appeared at the end, and it was strongly promoted much earlier


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## Timon91

It indeed takes a very long time before the runaway track appears. They should put one before the Verviers Est exit, that'd make it much safer if a truck gets in trouble.


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## ChrisZwolle

Again a heavy accident on the E17 Antwerpen -> Gent


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## Timon91

^^This is a very severe accident. Did anyone get killed? I mean, it doesn't seem to me that you can get out of that car on the first pic alive.


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## Meurisse

Chriszwolle said:


> Belgian style accident at R2:


lol, belgian style indeed.

On the R1 (ring of Antwerp): around 500 accidents every year...

Hopefully making our ringroad a RING and adding a city ringroad will solve this dangerous situation...


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## staff

Are all motorways in Belgium lit up? I drove from the NL border to Antwerp and on to Brussels a couple of weeks ago and I think there were lights along the whole stretch.


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## Qaabus

madao said:


> i think it's because of the tax
> 
> We Dutch pay alot of tax that money goes for a part to infrastructure there is where the answer is i think...


Taxes are way higher in Belgium. The highest in the world after Sweden and Denmark.


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## Jeroen669

^^ Belgium is spending a hell lot of money on PT.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ De Lijn, a public transit company in Belgium, has only 16% of own income from tickets, the rest is subsidized. They have too many lines which have only a ridership of 15 - 25%, and even some lines which have less than one percent ridership. They are said to overestimate their ridership with 100 million travellers per year, in order to recieve more funding.

Flanders recieve almost as much funding for transit as the entire Netherlands (900 million vs 1.15 billion) (excluding trains) That's 2.1 times the funding per inhabitant compared to the Netherlands.


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## LtBk

So only 300 million use PT in flanders instead of 400 million per year?


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## ChrisZwolle

Well, De Lijn does not run all Public Transit, only buses and some tramways. 

Aside, from the transit issues,

The problem is that Belgium does not have had a proper spatial planning, and now some rural areas are almost completely urbanized, since all roads are lined with houses. The population density in Flanders is even higher than New Jersey.


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## hix

MateoW said:


> I'm annoyed about Belgian signs, they don't show the motorway number, only E numbers


In Belgium the E-numbers are used for the motorways. We don't need the A-signs and nobody uses them.
Is there any particular reason why you prefer to use A-numbers instead of E-numbers?

The E- numbers should be used in every European country, not the national numbers.


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## ChrisZwolle

E-numbers make no sense in national signage. First of all, international traffic is minimal compared to domestic traffic. Second, you can't really tell how important a motorway is by it's number the number 313 would be secondary or even a local motorway in Germany, but in Belgium it's a very important transit axe, while the E42 south of Verviers is usually very empty. 

I wonder how many people actually use the E-signage when travelling internationally. They're not named in traffic info, sometimes sparsely (DE) or not (UK) signed, and sometimes make a strange routing (like E25 in NL).


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## hix

I doesn't matter what you use. It is different in every country anyway. If you travel in Belgium what do you care if a motorway is called E19 or A12 of M4 or C55 or whatever. In Belgium nobody uses the A-numbers. On the Radio they will say there is a trafic jam on the E40, A numbers are never mentioned. I see NO reason what so ever why it should be better to use an A-number. You're just looking for a stick to hit the dog...

At the countrary. I find it very anoying that in most countries the E numbers are not used. Or only as a secondary sign. If you travel trough 5 or 6 countries, it's a different numbering after every border. I don't see the advantage in that.


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## ChrisZwolle

I was in Belgium day before yesterday, I made a video of the E314 NL -> Houthalen, though it was taped on a 160px format, so useless  The pavement of the E314 was generally okay, but noisy. I like the new ecoduct near Kikbeek. 

The signed destinations in the Netherlands differ from the Belgium signaged destinations, in the Netherlands, they sign Antwerpen on the A76, but in Belgium it's Brussel (makes more sense because the E314 heads for Brussels). Maybe the Dutch don't want the through traffic to Antwerpen on the A2/A67.


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## Palance

hix said:


> In Belgium nobody uses the A-numbers.


Unless the highway does not have an E-number.


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## Timon91

That seems very unhandy to me. Signing your motorways with 2 different letters?


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## ChrisZwolle

Lots of countries do that. Denmark also has motorways that aren't E-roads, however, they don't have a prefix in that case. Spain has tons of prefixes.


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## Palance

But the confusing matter in Belgium is that even when a highway as an E-number, sometimes also (or only) the A-number is used:









A8 = E429 

Belgium also uses E-numbers even when you are not actually on that road (but the road is leading to an E-road),









Here on the R0: To the right leads directly to the E411 (A4), that is correct. But the E19 and E40 are *not* ahead, but they are a lot of kilometres away.









The R0 again: The E40 is correct here in both directions. But the E19 still isn't.


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## hix

Palance said:


> The R0 again: The E40 is correct here in both directions. But the E19 still isn't.


It is clearly stated that you are on the R0 (Ringway 0) and that straight ahead leads to E19. I fail to see why you think this is not correct?


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ How do you know if the R0 or E19 or E40 is the actual road number? However, I believe that in case of the R0, it overlaps with E19 and E40.


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## hix

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ How do you know if the R0 or E19 or E40 is the actual road number?


Because it is very clearly marked on top of the sign.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Yeah, but why wouldn't it be the bottom numbers, like in nearly all other countries? In Belgium, anything is possible. You have to think of signage in a way that you have not driven there before. Signage is meant for those unknown to the area, not the everyday commuter.


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## Josh

Well the bottom numbers are correct too cause if you go straight ahead you will eventually be on the E19 or E40. If you come from Liège f.e. and you need to go to Oostende you have to follow the E40, which goed around Brussels via the RO and basically is still the same road.


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## hix

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ Yeah, but why wouldn't it be the bottom numbers, like in nearly all other countries? In Belgium, anything is possible. You have to think of signage in a way that you have not driven there before. Signage is meant for those unknown to the area, not the everyday commuter.


When you drive from Antwerp to Amsterdam, it's impossible to find any sign to Amsterdam ones you are in the Netherlands. For peopole who wish to follow the European roadsigns they will find that in Holland they can hardly be found. Your idea that national signs are easyer to follow is quite absurd. On the Belgian Motorways it is very easy to find you way if you come from abroad. Destinations are clearly marked and the E-road numbers are easy to follow. In Brussels if you come from Antwerp and you want to go to Gent, all you have to do is to follow the E40 numbers or/and direction Gent.
In Holland at the contrary ones you cross the border, you will see NO sign to Amsterdam and the international E numbers are invisible. You think that is easy? I disagree!


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Kind of sad that you try to prove me wrong by attacking the Dutch signage, while I didn't compared it to it once.



> On the Belgian Motorways it is very easy to find you way if you come from abroad.


Yeah, they sign names like Anvers or Gand which are usually not displayed at maps. The really issue are all those translations, like Luik, Bergen, Courtrai, Bruges, Gand, Anvers, Maestricht, Aix-la-Chapelle etc. One sign it says Anvers, the next says Antwerp, how are non-Belgium travellers suppose to know those are the same?


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## hix

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ Kind of sad that you try to prove me wrong by attacking the Dutch signage, while I didn't compared it to it once.


Very sad indeed! :lol:

Is there any particular reason why I'm not allowed to compare the Dutch and the Belgian signage?

By the the way, I was under impression that it was you who said this:



> The signed destinations in the Netherlands differ from the Belgium signaged destinations, in the Netherlands





> Yeah, but why wouldn't it be the bottom numbers, like in nearly all other countries? In Belgium, anything is possible


I don't know why you feel attacked so easily. It was you who started this silly discussion after all.


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## Thermo

Chriszwolle said:


> ^^ I never understand that. In theory, Belgium is one of the richest countries in Europe, but if you're driving through it, all you can think is: "My god what a mess". Everything looks neglected.


Isn't that a bit exaggerated? hno:










And you get the countryside for free...


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## ChrisZwolle

> Isn't that a bit exaggerated?


Ofcourse the countryside is beautiful, but I'm not basing my opinion on a couple of throughfares of the country alone, I'm often in Belgium, and also often away from the motorway. For instance, I was in Houthalen and Helchteren sunday.


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## Timon91

The pics are good tourist ads


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## hix

> Isn't that a bit exaggerated?



Yes, we're often in Belgium too! More often than you Chriszwolle, I think, and we believe that you are exagerating. (And you have long toes aswell)

And I think that you as a mod should try not to bash Belgium somuch. I know that you think that you are the expert in motorways, but that gives you no right to do what you do.

You're reaction on my previous post was also over the top! Do you think that you have the right to compare when you like and than when other people respond to that you can start insulting them? And than you had the nerve to say that you never compared anything! That's indeed very sad of you! hno:


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## ChrisZwolle

Okay, some positive things about Belgium then:

* The underlying non-motorway-network is usually pretty well constructed, lots of 4 lane highways.
* Infrastructure of urban area's seems to be better in Belgium, like all those tunnels in Brussels and Liège.
* Speed limits make more sense than in the Netherlands
* More 2x3 motorways
* Road numbering makes more sense for non-motorways
* There are usually alternatives for motorways available in the form of N-roads. We lack that in the Netherlands.
* Road surface improved significantly on several motorways
* The landscape is much more attractive than in the Netherlands, especially in the Ardennes and NE Belgium.
* Housing is more affordable (border regions are full of Dutch).


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## Palance

hix said:


> It is clearly stated that you are on the R0 (Ringway 0) and that straight ahead leads to E19. I fail to see why you think this is not correct?


Beacuse in this system, you cannot see what the actual roadnumber is, straight ahead: Is it R0 (that is clear to me, it is!)? Is it E19? Or is it E40? Or is it both E19 or E40? That is a lack in the Belgian system.

In the Dutch system, in this case we should use brackets with the roadnumber in plain text to indicate an 'indirect' roadnumber, in this case it should be (E19)


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## hix

Palance said:


> Beacuse in this system, you cannot see what the actual roadnumber is, straight ahead: Is it R0 (that is clear to me, it is!)? Is it E19? Or is it E40? Or is it both E19 or E40? That is a lack in the Belgian system.
> 
> In the Dutch system, in this case we should use brackets with the roadnumber in plain text to indicate an 'indirect' roadnumber, in this case it should be (E19)


No it is very clear that this road is R0 (In 's on top of the panel) and that the E40 and E19 are further away. I fail to see that this is not clear to you. It is not because you are used to the Dutch system and not to the Belgian system that you can say the Dutch system is clearer.
It is time that all european countries use the same roadsign system and the same european numbers.


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## Palance

hix said:


> No it is very clear that this road is R0 (In 's on top of the panel) and that the E40 and E19 are further away. I fail to see that this is not clear to you. It is not because you are used to the Dutch system and not to the Belgian system that you can say the Dutch system is clearer.
> It is time that all european countries use the same roadsign system and the same european numbers.


The point here is that, as I already told, that you *cannot* see on which road you are: The E40 begins here at this intersection but the E19 is much further away. You cannot see which begins here and which is further away. The Belgian system fails in making a difference between (E-)roadnumers on which you are driving (or on which you will drive after the next exit) and (E-)roadnumbers which you will (probalby) meet after 5, 10 or 20 kilometres. That is not clear since both E19 and E40 are in the same layout.

that has nothing to do with the Dutch systeem: Almost every country in the world as a system where it is directly clear whether it is a 'direct' roadnumber or an 'indirect' roadnumber.

Example: the Dutch intersection Vaanplein: See the right sign: It is clear that you will proceed on the A15 direction Europoort and Hellevoetsluis, but also that you will need to drive on the N57 to Hellevoetsluis after some kilometres. And not from this point. (otherwise it shoud not have been between brackets but in black letters on yellow background).


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## hix

Palance said:


> The point here is that, as I already told, that you *cannot* see on which road you are


No the point is, as I allready told , that it is VERY CLEARLY marked on witch road you are. It is on top of the panel where you can read "R0 Ring Brussel" Why dont you open your eyes before you make pedant remarks? hno:

People who drive on the ring see immediately that they have to exit here for direction E40 Leuven and that straight ahead they stay on the ring direction E40 and E19 (Gent and Antwerpen) . This is much clearer than the Dutch system where you have to look for brackets. (what a silly idea)
I would like to see a sign on a ring motorway from a Dutch city. The signs there are VERY confusing indeed.


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## Palance

The R0 is clear, but not the E40 and E19.

Well, suppose you were a tourist from a far country, driving for the first time in Belgium. And you were driving on the R0 and approaching this sign. Suppose you don't know anything about the Belgian system.

Suppose so: Could you explain to me how I can see on which roadnumber I am driving after this intersection: E40 or E19. How can I immediately see which E-roadnumber is straight ahead *directly after* this intersection?

Suppose you were that tourist, please explain clearly to me which situation is straight ahead:

1 R0 and E19 directly ahead, direction to E40 (which is kilometres away)
2 R0 and E40 directly ahead, direction to E19 (which is kilometres away)
3 R0, E19 and E40 directly ahead, no signation to roadnumbers further away
4 R0 directly ahead, direction to E19 and E40 (which are kilometres away)

We both know that anser 2 is the correct one.
But now: Explain to me *how* a foreigner could see that directly from the signation. :nuts:

You asked for a sign on a Dutch ring motorway:

Rotterdam:









Amsterdam:


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## Palance

For people who are not familiair with the situation, a small map:










Blue = E19
Red = E40
Green spot = location of the picture.


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## hix

And you claim that this is more clear than the Belgian system? Thats ridiculous!



> We both know that anser 2 is the correct one.
> But now: Explain to me *how* a foreigner could see that directly from the signation.


No we don't. I know something else. And that's that you are on the R0 and that people who go straight ahaid will go in the direction of Gent en Antwerpen (E40 and E19) en if you turn right you go to Leuven en Brussels (also E40)
How mmuch clearer can you get?

On the Brussels ring it is always clearly marked that you are on the R0 and what directions are straight ahead and what directions are at the exit.
So stop being silly and do something else, go play outside, the sun is shining.


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## Thermo

Chriszwolle said:


> Ofcourse the countryside is beautiful, but I'm not basing my opinion on a couple of throughfares of the country alone, I'm often in Belgium, and also often away from the motorway. For instance, I was in Houthalen and Helchteren sunday.


So what's your point now? That Houthalen/Helchteren looked like a dump?


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## H123Laci

I dont understandt.

whats the sense in fighting with signs instead of buying a gps? :wallbash:


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## Palance

@Hix: It's a pity that you behave like a little child. The fact that you cannot do more than personal attacks convicnes me that I am correct in this disscussion. I can only give you advice to read more carefully. If you still don't understand the problem, please feel free to contact me in Dutch, so I can explain it better to your. very pity that you react in such a childish way. For me: discussion closed.


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## hix

@ Palance:
Quite ridiculous to insult people and than say that the discussion is closed. it is clear that you are wrong and that you don't want to admit it. But by callling me childish, you will not win this discussion. (Do you always call people childish when they disagree with you? :bash
Maybe you can try to grow up and accept that you do not know everything better, and maybe admit that you are wrong sometimes?

In this case it was clear that your statement was wrong and I proved it. Accept this fact and stop weening like a baby.
And really, don't you have anything better to do than criticising the Belgian road signs? Get a life!


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## ChrisZwolle

@ Patrick below: In Germany they're changing that, I saw signs with Arnhem and Nijmegen instead of Arnheim and Nimwegen. In the Netherlands, they changed it too at some spots, like Köln and Aachen instead of Keulen and Aken.

EDIT: Freaking server's unsynchronized again. My reply was for Patrick.


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## Patrick

Chriszwolle said:


> Yeah, they sign names like Anvers or Gand which are usually not displayed at maps. The really issue are all those translations, like Luik, Bergen, Courtrai, Bruges, Gand, Anvers, Maestricht, Aix-la-Chapelle etc. One sign it says Anvers, the next says Antwerp, how are non-Belgium travellers suppose to know those are the same?


yeah, signs should use the local names (but it's not unique to belgium, although there it is very bad: france should also sign saarbrücken and trier instead of sarrebruck and trèves; and germany should write bruxelles instead of brüssel and warszawa instead of warschau on its signs)


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## hix

I believe there is a European rule that states that the original name has to be mentioned between brackets for foreign destinations. So in Germany you will have Lüttich (Liège).
In Belgium however Liège is not a foreign destination and so European rules do not apply. In Belgium the law says that roadsigns have to be in the language of the region. I believe this is indeed a stupid law that make roadsigns difficult to understand for foreigners.

But foreign destionations will be signed according to European regulations. So you will find Rijsel (Lille) or Cologne (Köln) on the motorways.
When Chriszwolle mentioned that, he tried to prove his point in our discussion about the E and A numbers in Belgium, while this has nothing to do with that discussion.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

hix said:


> When Chriszwolle mentioned that, he tried to prove his point in our discussion about the E and A numbers in Belgium, while this has nothing to do with that discussion.


What is your problem man? The fact I mentioned that had NOTHING to do with that discussion, which has ended, for me.


----------



## hix

Chriszwolle said:


> What is your problem man? The fact I mentioned that had NOTHING to do with that discussion, which has ended, for me.


Clearly not. Why did you mention it than if it had nothing to do with the discussion? Another attempt to say someting bad about Belgium?
The discussion is over now over me. I hope you will not start again with your silly Bashing attempts...

I don't know why you hate Belgium so much. Maybe something bad happened in your youth? Try to be a little bit more objective and stop posting photo's that make my country look ridiculous.


----------



## Thermo

Let's not overreact here. 

I don't think Chriszwolle 'hates' Belgium. 

We have to admit that the road infrastucture in Belgium could do better. Certainly in comparison to the Netherlands. The roads itself improved drastically over the last years, but unfortunately they did nothing about the roadsigns. I get also angry when I see very old and dirty signs. Authorities should replace those filthy old signs more rapidly. 

On the other hand, I also get a bit annoyed by some Dutchies who think everything is better in their country. But I see this more as 'part of their culture'. Every single Dutch person I know (or met) is like this, so i'm a bit used to this.

A few weeks ago, I went to 'Rock Werchter' with some Dutch friends. On a numer of occasions they said 'in Holland this is so much better'. 

ps: Rock Werchter is for the 4th time awarded as 'best festival in the world' in London. I'm sure those music industry people didn't visit Holland.


----------



## Patrick

> and stop posting photo's that make my country look ridiculous.


well, if such photos exist because are show a part of reality? :?

and about that road number sign on the Ring:

This is my edited version of it, respecting the rules of the belgian system (number ahead and not below) as far as I know, but making it better understandable:








for comparison:









After this interchange, you are on the E40 which will overlapse the Ring. The E19 will join later, that's why it is somewhere else


----------



## Mateusz

I have better opınıon about belgıan motorways than about german or dutch ones  Just A-numbers on sıngs and would be perfect :cheers:


----------



## Patrick

I was a bit bored, so...


----------



## hix

Patrick said:


> well, if such photos exist because are show a part of reality? :?
> 
> and about that road number sign on the Ring:
> 
> This is my edited version of it, respecting the rules of the belgian system (number ahead and not below) as far as I know, but making it better understandable:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After this interchange, you are on the E40 which will overlapse the Ring. The E19 will join later, that's why it is somewhere else


Great photoshopping and a super attempt to improve. But it is wrong. The number of the motorway this car is on is the RO (Brussels Ring), It is clearly marked on every sign on the ring. From the position this photo is taken you have two possibilities:

1. the first is to leave the R0 and go to the E40 (eastern branch) direction Brussels, Liège or Leuven.
2. the second one is to go straight ahead stayin on the ring 0 witch leads to the E19 to Antwerpen or the (western branch) E40 to Gent.

You basicly just have to follow the directions to the letter. You don't want to go to Liège, Leuven or Brussels? Than stay on the ring until the next interchange.

In Belgium you have 3 types of motorways: E-motorways, most of them are. A-motorways, only a handfull. motorways who do not have an E number. and last the R-motorways, whitch are the rings...

For me this is all very clear.


When I'm in Holland or in other neighbouring countries, like Germany, but not in France, I find it very anoying that it is impossible to know the destinations that are further ahead. I think that in Belgium the signs are very clear and they show also further (important) destinations For example, in Brussels there will be signs to Luxemburg and Paris while in the Netherlands they only show the nearest city.
Also in Belgium here are much more motorways than in any other country in the world. The lanes are wider and their are more lanes. The motorways are very well lit and the exits are long and well anounced. In the Netherland and Germany, driving at night is hell, in Belgium it is heaven!
Every time when I come back from a holliday, no matter from what direction I come, it is always a relieve to be back on Belgian motorways. It is pure luxury compaired whit the shit from France, the Netherlands and Germany.

It is true that in the last years there has been some neglect. But the fact remains that we have the most extended and most luxurious motorway system in the world. 

And now: this discussion is closed for me.


----------



## Patrick

hix said:


> 1. the first is to leave the R0 and go to the E40 (eastern branch) direction Brussels, Liège or Leuven.
> 2. the second one is to go straight ahead stayin on the ring 0 witch leads to the E19 to Antwerpen or the (western branch) E40 to Gent.


I got your point, but still prefer my editation  Because when you take this sign as an example








(by Chris, I hope you don't mind I took it 
you just don't know that you already are on the E40. that's the point of discussion  and that's why I put it into the black box for showing that you already are on the E40.



hix said:


> When I'm in Holland or in other neighbouring countries, like Germany, but not in France, I find it very anoying that it is impossible to know the destinations that are further ahead. I think that in Belgium the signs are very clear and they show also further (important) destinations For example, in Brussels there will be signs to Luxemburg and Paris while in the Netherlands they only show the nearest city.


I don't know about the Netherlands, but for Germany, it depends on where you are. Sometimes true, sometimes not.




hix said:


> Also in Belgium here are much more motorways than in any other country in the world.














hix said:


> The lanes are wider and their are more lanes.


how wide are they?


hix said:


> The motorways are very well lit


true


hix said:


> and the exits are long and well anounced.


if no tree is blocking the signs which are rather ugly. but that's personal taste.


hix said:


> Every time when I come back from a holliday, no matter from what direction I come, it is always a relieve to be back on Belgian motorways. It is pure luxury compaired whit the shit from France, the Netherlands and Germany.


Have you ever come back via the motorway between St. Vith and Verviers? I guess not.



hix said:


> It is true that in the last years there has been some neglect. But the fact remains that we have the most extended and most luxurious motorway system in the world. And if you find the E-signs difficult to understand, I'm sorry, but than you're an idiot...


I'll call you Radix from now on.


----------



## Verso

hix said:


> It is true that in the last years there has been some neglect. But the fact remains that we have the most extended and most luxurious motorway system in the world.


That's rubbish. Pavement on Belgian motorways is bad.


----------



## hix

Patrick said:


> you just don't know that you already are on the E40.


You don't seem to understand that you are NOT on the E40! (I don't know howmany times I already said that) It's very clear that you are on the R0. and that you are approaching the interchange with the E40 to Liège. The E40 to Gent and the E19 to Antwerp are further ahead, that is also clearly marked.
(Well in your last picture, you are approaching another exit off course)




> I'll call you Radix from now on.


You can call me anything you like. :lol:


----------



## Patrick

hix said:


> You don't seem to understand that you are NOT on the E40!
> (Well in your last picture, you are approaching another exit off course)


radix, ok, better said, you have no possibilty not to get on the E40 when driving forward at this place (unless you make an u-turn and drive in the wrong direction ). 
But you won't necessarily get on the E19 (when you take an exit before the interchange with E19). Got my point? As I said, I understand your point, and now I try to make you understand our point. You don't have to change your mind, but just understand why we think otherwise


----------



## hix

Patrick said:


> radix, ok, better said, you have no possibilty not to get on the E40 when driving forward at this place (unless you make an u-turn and drive in the wrong direction ).


Once more: NO. To get to the E40 you have to LEAVE the R0 at the interchange R0/E40 if you continue to drive forward, you will NEVER get on the E40. (unless you exit the ring)
Why is this so difficult to understand?


----------



## Patrick

Isn't the E40 overlapsing the R0 from this interchange to the interchange with E40 to Gent?
Is the E40 interupted in the Ring? Or goes the E40 through the innercity?


----------



## Patrick

Palance said:


> For people who are not familiair with the situation, a small map:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue = E19
> Red = E40
> Green spot = location of the picture.


so this is wrong? the red line shopuld go through the inner city or be interrupted? if so, I apologize, because I based my opinion on this map. I checked GoogleMaps and there, the E40 doesn't overlapse the ring. You could have spared us the whole discussion by telling us that this map is wrong, that was not clear, you were "just" telling something about directions 

Then this would be the best solution in my opinion for that spot:








could you live with that? :tongue:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Google Maps doesn't show concurrencies very well.


----------



## hix

Patrick said:


> so this is wrong? the red line shopuld go through the inner city or be interrupted? if so, I apologize, because I based my opinion on this map. I checked GoogleMaps and there, the E40 doesn't overlapse the ring. You could have spared us the whole discussion by telling us that this map is wrong, that was not clear, you were "just" telling something about directions
> 
> Then this would be the best solution in my opinion for that spot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> could you live with that? :tongue:


At the moment I'm at my job, and unfortenatly I cannot see your pictures here. (I see just the red cross)

But basicly, I said from the beginning that the R0 and the E40 are two different motorways. The sign on the R0 is IMO very clear. The name of the motorway is on top of the sign, the directions on the sign itself.
So, I'm happy you understand now, so I can get to work! :lol:


----------



## Patrick

Chriszwolle said:


> Google Maps doesn't show concurrencies very well.


so then ViaMichelin is wrong aswell? :dunno::tongue:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Check out this beautiful site made by a forumer from the autosnelwegen forum:

http://www.wegen-routes.be/
(only available in Dutch and French).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Check out this beautiful site made by a forumer from the autosnelwegen forum:

http://www.wegen-routes.be/
(only available in Dutch and French).


----------



## Patrick

nice site, especially the old photos are great!

but what do I see in the dossiers? The E40 is splitted. One part ends west of Bruxelles, the next part begins east of Bruxelles.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Im curious how that works with the E34 in Antwerpen. Is it routed over the R1 and the Kennedytunnel, or through the city center?


----------



## hix

I don't know. I guess that you can see it on the signs. If the R1 and E34 overlapse than you will see both numbers on the signs. I think they overlapse.


----------



## Patrick

what does that black 1 in the yellow field left above the overhead-sign mean?











no number at all here near the Kennedytunnel


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe that "1" (there was also a "2") were meant to sign the 2 different ways around Antwerp during the grand roadworks on the R1. (via Kennedy and Liefkenshoek tunnels).


----------



## hix

Patrick said:


> no number at all here near the Kennedytunnel


Well instead of the number it says: "Ring Antwerpen" So you are on the ring R1. I suppose the numbers will be on the milestones.


----------



## Palance

Chriszwolle said:


> I believe that "1" (there was also a "2") were meant to sign the 2 different ways around Antwerp during the grand roadworks on the R1. (via Kennedy and Liefkenshoek tunnels).



Not only during the roadworks, but they are definitive routings now on the Ring of Antwerpen. 1 is clockwise and 2 is anti-clockwise (those numbers are also used in traffic information). I have seen signs in which theses numbers are ingerated (near Beveren at the junction with the A11).


----------



## Palance

This sign:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's a lot of information.


----------



## hix

Patrick said:


> Then this would be the best solution in my opinion for that spot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> could you live with that? :tongue:


Now I'm home and I can see your picture. I agree that it's much better than the original one! Well done! :cheers:


----------



## hix

Patrick said:


> so then ViaMichelin is wrong aswell? :dunno::tongue:


It seems to me that this map is correct. Your green arrow is the place where the photo is taken. It's on the R0 and the intersection ahead is with the E40.


----------



## Timon91

Palance said:


> This sign:


This sign makes me think of Polish signs indicating road works hno:


----------



## Jeroen669

hix said:


> I believe there is a European rule that states that the original name has to be mentioned between brackets for foreign destinations.


That's a Belgian rule, not a European one. Eg, in the Netherlands we sign Liège, not Luik.


----------



## Patrick

german mess:









Liège, but Brüssel with Umlaut.


----------



## -Pino-

Jeroen669 said:


> That's a Belgian rule, not a European one. Eg, in the Netherlands we sign Liège, not Luik.


That's what we should under our own rules, not what we actually do ...

As to the Germans signposting Brüssel and Liège, they probably follow that route because there is no clear endonym for Brussels and it wouldn't make too much sense to signpost Bruxelles-Brussel (Brüssel). I once even read an EU document stating that member states could generally just refer to the town in exonym.


----------



## Glodenox

Chriszwolle said:


> That's a lot of information.


Which is why they've placed it like 500 meter before the actual junction.
The information on where to go to the right and later on to the left is repeated further on.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Weird speed limit:


----------



## Glodenox

And a pretty bad street as well it seems. Where the road paid by the federal government ends and the regional government has to pay, it shows.

I guess it's just a very old sign that never got replaced.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## convalescence

Today I went through Belgium and I took some photos:

Ring Antwerpen was terribly jammed
here in Kennedy Tunnel:

















Interchange E34/E313: they are able to sign german towns in two languages but they aren't able to sign their own big towns in 2 languages that's so sad hno:



weather became worse, very bad to take pictures...

E42 Verviers









the terrible curve


----------



## Skyprince

Kewl highways in Belgium. I saw many signboards leading into other countries namely France and Netherlands, something you almost can't see on Asian highways.


----------



## christos-greece

Most European highways are great


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Skyprince said:


> Kewl highways in Belgium. I saw many signboards leading into other countries namely France and Netherlands, something you almost can't see on Asian highways.


Yeah, well, Belgium is very small, you can drive through it in two hours or less. (if traffic-jam free). For instance, Brussels is only 60 kilometers south of the Netherlands (though it's not signed here, but I think it should), and 60 kilometers from the French border. Only if you drive the entire E40 which runs east-west through the country, it's a 300 kilometer drive.


----------



## convalescence

Chriszwolle said:


> Only if you drive the entire E40 which runs east-west through the country, it's a 300 kilometer drive.


I always do such a long drive to get from my hometown to the sea  on wednesday by E42-E40 (St Vith - Verviers - Liege - Brussels - Gent - Bruges) and it took much time because the ring of Brussel was terribly jammed! I'm going this way almost every year since 10 years and so I noticed the increasing of traffic in Belgium, especially at the ringroads of Brussel (R0) and Antwerpen (R1). 
3 lanes at R0 and also E40 Brussels-Gent are definitely too less! So if there was so much traffic on wednesday, on my way home on a friday I wanted to try another route which was a bit longer but hopefully faster (E34-E313-E42: Knokke-Heist - Antwerpen - Liege - St Vith). R1 Antwerpen was jammed as well but this route was a bit faster though!

But Antwerpen will build a new bridge (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=423315) to close the ringroad and solve the traffic problems, because the Kennedytunnel is a bottleneck.

Does anyone know if there are any plans to expand R0 or E40 Brussels-Oostende?


----------



## Patrick

what is the AADT for these parts you mentioned? (R0/E40) anyone has numbers?


----------



## Jeroen669

Busiest part of the R0 was about 140.000, if I remember correctly.


----------



## hix

convalescence said:


> Does anyone know if there are any plans to expand R0 or E40 Brussels-Oostende?


Yes, the Flemish gouverment has presented the plans a couple of weeks ago. They will espand the R0 to 12 - 17 lanes. They will do it in three stages:
1. between E40 (Leuven) and E19 (Antwerpen)
2. between E19 and A12 (Willebroek)
3. between A12 and E40 (Gent)

You can find more about it on this thread in the BE-Forum: Expansion Ring 0
And here, you can find the MER (Environment effect rapport): mer

Most of it is in Dutch.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Video: R1 Antwerpen*

A drive on the southbound R1 in Antwerpen. It starts on the E19 just north of Interchange Antwerpen-Noord and runs down to the A12 just past Interchange Antwerpen-Zuid.

check it here in high quality or watch below:


----------



## lpioe

convalescence said:


> I always do such a long drive to get from my hometown to the sea  on wednesday by E42-E40 (St Vith - Verviers - Liege - Brussels - Gent - Bruges) and it took much time because the ring of Brussel was terribly jammed! I'm going this way almost every year since 10 years and so I noticed the increasing of traffic in Belgium, especially at the ringroads of Brussel (R0) and Antwerpen (R1).
> 3 lanes at R0 and also E40 Brussels-Gent are definitely too less! So if there was so much traffic on wednesday, on my way home on a friday I wanted to try another route which was a bit longer but hopefully faster (E34-E313-E42: Knokke-Heist - Antwerpen - Liege - St Vith). R1 Antwerpen was jammed as well but this route was a bit faster though!
> 
> But Antwerpen will build a new bridge (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=423315) to close the ringroad and solve the traffic problems, because the Kennedytunnel is a bottleneck.
> 
> Does anyone know if there are any plans to expand R0 or E40 Brussels-Oostende?



That bridge is amazing!
Will it definately be built?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Video: R0 Brussels Ringroad*

A video of the northern/western side of Brussel / Bruxelles. The video starts near the A12 on the northern side of Brussel, and heads southbound to the border with Wallonia.

check it here on high quality or watch below:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Winter condition currently on Belgian Autostrades:

E34:


----------



## Robosteve

Those pictures look amazing; for some reason I enjoy driving in poor weather, although conditions never get that bad around here. Most of the pictures of European highways on here make me want to travel to Europe, actually; I've never been anywhere in Europe apart from the UK before.


----------



## x-type

cool! so this is coming to us next week!


----------



## Timon91

The temperature just dropped a little bit so the snow actually stays instead of melting away instantly. Unfortunately it warms up tomorrow, so we're not able to enjoy it any longer hno:

It will save some kms of jams tomorrow morning though.


----------



## RipleyLV

Are jams in Belgium the same as in the Netherlands?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A little less, because Belgium is smaller. Most traffic jams concentrate around Antwerp and Brussels, but accidents with trucks are extremely frequent on the E313 east of Antwerp, and it often comes to a gridlock there. Amazing amount of trucks on 2x2 lanes + commuter traffic. 

Belgium (especially Flandres) has a horrible spatial planning.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E313 Liège - Antwerpen*

The E313 is a major motorway in Belgium, and is especially near Antwerpen (Antwerp) a major truck corridor, one of the busiest in western Europe. This journey goes from the city of Liège (Dutch: Luik) to Antwerpen (French: Anvers).

map:









1. This first picture immediatly shows one of Belgiums problems; signs behind trees that are only fully visible when you're close.









2. We take the exit to the E313 (Anvers is Antwerpen)









3. Some Liège industrial areas









4. Exit 34 (you miss the exit sign quick because of it's color)









5. Rest area ahead with a nice view on the valley.









6. Notice the camouflaged exit distance sign









7. Exit Boirs ahead. The Boirs viaduct is said to be in state of disrepair.









8. Exit Boirs. Visé is an industrial city at the Dutch border (E25 border crossing)









9. This is the problematic viaduct (including another camouflaged sign)









10. Entering Flandres. Dutch language. Notice the pavement difference.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

11. Welcome from the people of the Limburg province (not to confused with the Dutch province of the same name)









12. One mile to exit Tongeren.









13. A major exit, also giving acces to the Dutch city of Maastricht.









14. Exit 32.









15. An hour to Antwerpen (or three when in a traffic jam)









16. Hehe, another camouflaged sign. This one was really invisible.









17. Minor exit, with milemarker. Notice the "A13" number, which is displayed as E313 on signage.









18. Quarter Mile to go.









19. US style exit without a proper exit lane.









20. I always found it a pity that they don't display road numbers on distance signs...


----------



## Timon91

It looks quite bad IMO. And those camouflaged signs are quite a problem.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

21. Central Limburg natural park.









22. Another exit signed one mile in advance. Notice the pavement, rather good.









23. Half a mile to go to the exit.









24. Notice the towering lampposts.









25. Reaching the city of Hasselt (not to be confused with Hasselt near Zwolle, Netherlands)









26. Hasselt-Oost (east) exit.









27. Exit signage.









28. Notice the low N-number. We barely have N-numbers below 100 in the Netherlands.









29. Truck traffic is increasing.









30. Hasselt-Zuid (South) exit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

31. Closing in on the Hasselt-Zuid exit.









32. This sign isn't very visible from a distance due to trees and a curve in the M'way.









33. Another Hasselt exit! It must be as big as Chicago.









34. Notice the SOS phone. I wonder if they survive with current cell phone usage.









35. The Hasselt-West exit.









36. Traffic jam at interchange Lummen (ahead)









37. Interchange Lummen ahead (E314)









38. The E314 is an east-west motorway from southern Netherlands to the Brussels region.









39. Interchange Lummen is being reconstructed.









40. I'm not a fan of this type of arrows.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

41. I like these signs, they should install them in the Netherlands too.









42. E313 becomes busier after traffic from E314 has merged.









43. One mile to exit Beringen.









44. 5km to rest area Tessenderloo. I have no idea what that blue icon means.









45. One half mile to go to exit Beringen.









46. Lots of foreigners on this road, including me and this German van from Bergheim.









47. 2 km to the rest area of Tessenderloo.









48. Another German in front of me, from Mettmann.









49. Exit Beverlo with rest area.









50. Another sign obscured by trees.


----------



## jpeter

Can somebody post me a picture from Speed Limits in Belgium? Thanks


----------



## Timon91

This is all I can find (I don't have pics myself)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N627 Eijsden (NL) - Battice (B)*

Some driving in Eastern Belgium, from Eijsden (NL) to Battice near the E40/E42. This is the N627.

1. Entering Belgium. Bilingual signs (looks quite new)









2. Speed limits sign. Jpeter must like this.









3. 's-Gravenvoeren is a exclave of Flandres surrounded by Wallonia and the Netherlands I believe. 









4. This road can be used to bypass the E25/E40 near Liège when travelling to E42 or Aachen from NL.









5. We're heading for Verviers.









6. Quite an important railway line for freight trains from Antwerp to the Ruhr area in Germany.









7. The road is okay here.









8. Another problem in Belgium; semi-urbanized areas along roads, called "lintbebouwing" in Dutch.









9. View on the Netherlands.









10. Minor intersection.









11. Another thing you almost never see in the Netherlands; above ground telephone/electricity lines.









12. This part desperatly needed repaving.









13. The edges are almost gravel, but get new pavement.









14. I'm not sure what this Val-Dieu thing is. Something touristicky?









15. Typical Wallonia; bad pavement and homes you doubt if anybody is living in...









16. Good, new pavement. 









17. Commercial strip.









18. Intersection with N3.









19. We're heading for Verviers.









20. € 1,41 for gasoline in 2007. That's 30 cents lower now. Diesel didn't drop that much.









21. This roundabout gives access to the E42 and E40 motorways.









That's it


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Bonus:

Highway to Hell (N67 Eupen - Monschau). This road was indeed fully dramatic









I also made a video of this road:


----------



## jpeter

yeah i like it


----------



## pijanec

I like it too. It actually looks quite good.


----------



## Timon91

Why is it called "highway to hell"? Because of the bad pavement?


----------



## PLH

^^ Looks like old concrete


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Remember the old Polish A4? It is just like that


----------



## PLH

Yeah, I remember that. It was even worse :nuts: It was once called 'The longest stairs of Europe' 

1936- 2005 RIP


----------



## Dan

Yikes!


----------



## Thermo

So Chris, when are you gonna post some pics of the E411 or the E25? Or do you only like to post pics of bad Belgian highways?  Seems like you're a bit obsessed with the Liège region...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E25 Liège - Bastogne*

As requested by popular demand (  ) some E25 pictures, travelling southbound. Taken in 2006.

1. Entering the Liège area on E25 South









2. Nearing the Cheratte impossible interchange.









3. Entering E40/E42/E25 West across the river Meuse.









4. Nearing the Hermée exit.









5. Interchange with the E313. Anvers = Antwerpen.









6. Mediocre pavement. Bumpy from time to time, but not too bad.









7. Oh, well...









8. Hasselt and Anvers are both in Flandres.









9. E313 interchanges twice. It has two legs near Liège. The Citadelle gives a great view on the city by the way.









10. The Vottem interchange. 









to be continued...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

11. Tongres = Tongeren (Flandres)









12. Exit 33.









13. Man alive!









14. Alleur exit.









15. We go left.









16. Going to be Paris would be cool too...









17. At the split.









18. Local exit









19. My calculator (also called: pocket Japanese) has this one too 









20. Funny: my aunt is named "Ans". Common Dutch name for somewhat older people.


----------



## Timon91

PLH said:


> Yeah, I remember that. It was even worse :nuts: It was once called 'The longest stairs of Europe'
> 
> 1936- 2005 RIP
> 
> http://wil.linux.krakow.pl/~disarm/S3400078.JPG


Do you have any more pics of the old A4?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I'll upload more later, because I'm on an unstable wireless connection.

Lesson one: never buy wireless internet junk. (thank god it's temporary).


----------



## Timon91

^^Ahhh, Chris has moved to his new house?


----------



## Thermo

Liège region again! :lol:


----------



## Josh

Val-Dieu is an abbey in Aubel. They also make beer there.


----------



## Thermo

New highway in Brabant Wallon (south of Brussels). Sorry for the small pics, but you get an idea...























































Wallonia is going to invest a lot in road maintenance in the coming years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Is that the N25? I have pics of that road too, excellent expressway, speed limit 120 and tractors


----------



## PLH

Tractors?


----------



## Glodenox

120km/h on an express road requires two lanes in each direction. Unlike highways, there's no minimum speed on them though, so they can also be used by tractors if they want to (although I'm sure that results in very dangerous situations...)

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

21. Speed check ahead (I speeded here several times, never got a ticket).









22. Ans is a suburb of Liège.









23. A somewhat lower tunnel ahead.









24. Liège downtown exit ahead. (including a sign in the bushes)









25. But first a rest area.









26. Some local destinations to follow a certain route.









27. Downtown Liège exit.









28. Liège has a great setting under the hills.









29. Local exit to Liège areas.









30. Narrow carriageway with the new Liège-Guillemins TGV station.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

31. Towering cranes.









32. TGV station exit with a lamppost right in front of the sign.









33. Bridge across the Meuse river.









34. From the bridge right into a tunnel.









35. This was the old E25 entrance from the route through the city.









36. Entering another short tunnel.









37. Southern suburbs exits.









38. Embourg exit ahead.









39. Quite a spectacular climb through this valley for Benelux standards.









40. Tilff exit.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

41. Beaufays exit.









42. 4 uphill lanes (trucks slow down to 30km/h here).









43. Another Beaufays exit ahead. Luxemburg is about an hour an a half away.









44. Also a touristic route through the Ardennes.









45. I believe this is the only rest area with services until Arlon.









46. The view along the road is nice. The hills are not much higher than the motorway here, because this is some kind of plateau.









47. Tiny distance sign.









48. Spa exit and roadworks ahead.









49. Decent deceleration lane 









50. New pavement. This road was really bad until 2005.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

51. Oh yeah that's nice.









52. Remouchamps exit.









53. This is a rural area on the roof of Belgium.









54. A village below in the valley.









55. Remouchamps viaduct.









56. Nice setting of the viaduct.









57. Harzé exit.









58. Exit 47 and a blank sign.









59. The arrow has fallen off :lol:









60. Huy exit (called Hoei in Dutch).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

61. Harre exit.









62. Exit 48bis.









63. Luxemburg just over an hour away.









64. Nice view again.









65. The lighting is spoiling the view 









66. I wonder how high they are... 15 - 20 m?









67. Manhay exit ahead.









68. E25 also goes under the number A26.









69. Well constructed intersection.









70. Entering the highest section of E25.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

71. Baraque de Fraiture.









72. An older sign.









73. Extensive lighting at exits.









74. This is the highest part of E25.









75. This area recieves quite some snow in wintertime.









76. Descending into a valley.









77. Great view again.









78. Houffalize Exit.









79. Roadworks ahead. The E25 recently did undergo a major rehabilitation project, as well as the E411.









80. Viaduct across the river Ourthe.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

81. Bertogne exit and the beginning of the roadworks.









82. I remember driving this road with my parents and caravan. Everything fell out of the closets because of the shaking. Thank god they rehabilitated it.









83. We're nearing the end of this photojourney.









84. They added some Luxembourg destinations such as Diekirch and Clervaux.









85. We take this exit. My girlfriend was tired of the drive already 









86. Entering a regional road.









That's it. :cheers:


----------



## Timon91

Looks good, Chris! That road was indeed horrible when I was there the last time (2004). It's good to see it got new pavement


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I drove the E25 back in August. The whole E25 has now good pavement, except for the E40 concurrency at the bridge across the Meuse, and the last 2 kilometers between Visé and the Dutch border.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting, Saarbrücken is now signed at interchange Battice (E40/E42). Even without the French translation of Sarrebruck. This must be some kind of breakthrough in Language politics  Although it might not be long until some language extremist paints the sign over (common sight in Belgium).


----------



## EPA001

^^ Very nice trip report of the Belgian highways. It is always a nice stretch to drive there.


----------



## convalescence

It seems that they can't decide what to sign at E42...

Before interchange Battice there was "Trèves" (french for Trier) before, now Saarbrücken? And after that interchange "Trier" is signed...and on other signs around Verviers there are only small towns (Prüm, Spa, St.Vith,...) signed - you see here:







after completion of German A60/E42 to Wittlich some years ago, Bitburg or Wittlich would be more worth to be mentioned than Prüm... but if you wait some years (after completion of B50/E42/"Hochmoselübergang"), they could also sign Frankfurt or Mainz...or more small towns like Simmern or Rheinböllen


----------



## Timon91

That first pic really looks like a forest road :lol:


----------



## Mateusz

Belgian motorways are my favourite


----------



## Timon91

And why are the Dutch jams not your favourite? :naughty:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interchange near Zaventem Airport (Brussels)


----------



## JOVANO

ChrisZwolle said:


> Interesting, Saarbrücken is now signed at interchange Battice (E40/E42). Even without the French translation of Sarrebruck. This must be some kind of breakthrough in Language politics  Although it might not be long until some language extremist paints the sign over (common sight in Belgium).


No breakthrough in our funny multi-language policy.
This pictures are taken in the German-speaking part of Belgium.

You thought we had only 2 languages to quarrel?

Signage should simply be in the language of the destination.
Hope that EU one day IMPOSES this.

You know that most cities in Belgium have names in many language, as we were occupied by all our dear neighbours, and even guys from further away.
(Spain, Vikings, Romans...)

Take Gent=Gand=Ghent=Gante...


----------



## deranged

The sign, coupled with the poorly-designed road markings, are misleading and dangerous. One possible solution would be to disallow overtaking with the use of dual unbroken lines and designate the lane as left turn only (using road markings) for a short distance either side of the intersection. Also, the sign could look something like this (but in French):










(Edit: You're right Glodenox, a distance would be much better. Don't know why I forgot about that. :bash


----------



## Glodenox

There's no real reason to put "ahead" beneath the sign according to me. It should be pretty obvious that's the situation ahead. Instead - and you'd evade the whole language division problem in Belgium right away - I'd just put the distance at which that situation starts.

Another solution would be more or less the same as deranged mentioned, but it would actually fit in the road markings we're already having right now: just a full white line (with some interruptions for that road to the left perhaps) and arrows showing in which lane to drive for each direction. In this case, the "middle" lane we're seeing would have the arrow to the left and the right lane would have an arrow forwards and one to the right combined (as we've got a lot on our roads elsewhere).

Also, looking at Google Earth, I see that the middle lane can basically be used by both directions when a driver feels like it. According to me that's way too dangerous. Some poles and markings that fence off the parts that may be used to turn left would've been much safer and easier to understand.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New dynamic signs along E313


----------



## Thermo

ChrisZwolle said:


> 14. They should renew these touristic signs, nearly all of them look like this, not really inviting.


They're already being renewed. These are the new ones (signs in full color):

























































































More: http://portfolio.sudpresse.be/main.php?g2_itemId=218655


----------



## Majestic

Beautiful signs, that's what might make you detour to just see what's posted. :cheers:


----------



## Timon91

Exactly, much better then the old ones :cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Only, one problem. These signs have to gonna get huge to see them properly. And they may distract too much then. I haven't seen other full-color photo-style touristic signs... Most of them just have a sketch on them with 2 colors (brown and white or so).


----------



## Timon91

You mean the sketches like you see on those signs in the Netherlands and Germany? 

By the way, you won't see the signs anyway, as they will probably hidden in the bushes


----------



## Glodenox

Haven't seen any of those new signs yet, but I certainly wouldn't mind 

Sure, they may distract a bit, but they're meant to grab the attention as well, so there's a thin line between "too distracting" and "not distracting enough".

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R3 Charleroi Beltway*

Charleroi is among the most decayed cities of western Europe. But that's what makes it interesting. A lot of faded, old infrastructure and signs. This photojourney goes along the R3, the outer belt of Charleroi.

More can be found on my Flickr page

First: the Eastside of R3

1. To good Belgian standards, the first picture features a sign in the trees.









2. That mountain is in fact a terril.









3. Marcinelle exit.









4. Marcinelle is also the name of a gigantic factory in the area.









5. Bridge









6. N5 exit. I was surprised to see Reims signed here, it's a long trip through country roads.









7. Some of Charleroi's suburbs.









8. There are a few tunnels in the R3.









9. That's Châtelet.









10. see?









11. Charleroi is set in a hilly region.









12. Châtelet exit.









13. N90 exit.









14. closer look.









15. Ransart exit.









16. E42 interchange.













Second: The westside of R3.

17. Short tunnel.









18. Marcinelle exits.









19. Long names here.









20. Interchange with the A503, a short motorway in Charleroi.









21. Beaumont exit.









22. R3 milemarker.









23. Another Marcinelle exit.









24. Forchies exit.









25. Typical Belgian motorway view: trees and nothing but them.









26. Railway crossing.









27. Courcelles exit.









28. N583.









29. E42 interchange.









30. Road numbers are faded.









31. Odd green sign.









32. Neat overhead.









33. Tunnel.


----------



## Timon91

I thought that Charleroi had a one-way ringroad. Which Belgian city does have that one-way ringroad?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Charleroi has two ringroads. The outer ringroad is the R3 and goes typically 5 to 8 kilometers outside the city center.

The R9 is the inner belt and is one way, 3 - 4 lanes and elevated throughout most of it's route. It's typically 500 to 1000 meters away from the city center. I would like to compare it to Rochester, NY inner belt.


----------



## firmanhadi

Goodness gracious! Somebody trim those trees! I'm sure Belgian government can afford to do that? hno:


----------



## Thermo

firmanhadi said:


> Goodness gracious! Somebody trim those trees! I'm sure Belgian government can afford to do that? hno:


Road maintenance is done by the federated states (Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels). So in the Charleroi case, it's Wallonia who has to pay for the roads... 

And yeah, they have no money


----------



## poller1

Thermo said:


> Road maintenance is done by the federated states (Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels). So in the Charleroi case, it's Wallonia who has to pay for the roads...
> 
> And yeah, they have no money


Also in Flanders those trees are a problem....... but indeed, Flanders has no money either.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If you are interested in the decay of Wallonian cities, check this photothread


----------



## Timon91

I'm sure it will get better with those cities. Once.


----------



## Morsue

Thermo said:


> Road maintenance is done by the federated states (Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels). So in the Charleroi case, it's Wallonia who has to pay for the roads...
> 
> And yeah, they have no money


I didn't know Flanders had an exclave (except for Baarle-Nassau). What's that red thingy near Maastricht?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's called the "Voerstreek" of "Fourons" in French. 

Note that Wallonia also has a small exclave in the extreme west.


----------



## Morsue

Oooh, geographical anomalies! Kind of like Abcoude


----------



## Thermo

Morsue said:


> I didn't know Flanders had an exclave (except for Baarle-Nassau). What's that red thingy near Maastricht?


It's the municipality of Voeren. If you want to know all about it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voeren


----------



## De Snor

On the A18 a earth dam has been constructed between Jabbeke and De Panne -the French border- to avoid frontal collisions.
Cars and trucks simply crossed the grass borders heading into overhead traffic causing enormous accidents due to high speed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ That used to be an American style freeway. I kind of liked it, but it's safer now. I have to drive up there anyway this summer or so, haven't been there in 2,5 years.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

R1 in Antwerp by member ff;


----------



## keber

I saw on GE, that E19 from Brussels to (almost) Antwerpen has a built median reserve with all the objects for additional 2x3+2 lanes motorway. Will that be built some day?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It was supposed to be some kind of superhighway.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.wegen-routes.be/doss/A1n.html (in Dutch)



> Wel werd in het vijftienjarenprogramma van minister Omer Vanaudenhove (1960, kaart) een bijkomende autosnelweg tussen Brussel en Antwerpen via Mechelen opgenomen, die met het oog op de verkeerstoename zes rijstroken in elke richting moest tellen. De studie van Kirschen over de 'autosnelwegen van de tweevoudige verbindingsschakel' bevestigde de noodzaak van deze hoge capaciteit.


In the 15-years programma of minister Omer Vanaudenhove (1960, map) an additional freeway between Brussels and Antwerp via Mechelen was planned, that had to carry six lanes per direction due to future volumes. The study by Kirschen about the "freeways of double connections" acknowledged the necessity of this high capacity.



> Om het middelste gedeelte van de E19 de gewenste capaciteit van twaalf rijstroken te geven, werd tussen de verkeerswisselaars met de grote ring van Brussel en die van Antwerpen voor een afwijkend dwarsprofiel geopteerd. Centraal zouden tweemaal drie rijstroken worden aangelegd voor het doorgaand verkeer; deze 'directe snelweg' zou enkel aansluitingen kennen ter hoogte van Mechelen-Zuid en Mechelen-Noord. Aan weerszijden van deze snelweg kwam een 'omnibussnelweg' te liggen, met nogmaals tweemaal drie rijstroken en zes toegangscomplexen voor een eerder lokale bediening. Deze omnibussnelweg werd in de loop van de jaren 1970 gebouwd; tot de aanleg van de directe snelweg zou men pas overgaan op het moment dat de verkeerstoename dat vereiste.


To give the E19 it desired capacity of twelve lanes, a different layout was build between the interchanges of Brussel and Antwerp. 2x3 lanes were planned in the median with only 2 exits near Mechelen-Zuid and -North. Additional parallel lanes of 2x3 lanes were planned with 6 interchanges for local traffic. This collector/express setup was build in the 1970's, with only the local lanes being build. They planned to construct the express route when traffic required this.



> De voorziene capaciteit bleek later een grove overschatting. Zelfs wanneer men het gestaag toegenomen verkeer in rekening brengt, kan men het nut van tweemaal drie extra rijstroken betwijfelen. De veranderende mentaliteit ten aanzien van bijkomende wegenaanleg, vanaf de jaren 1970, maakte de aanleg van rijstroken in de vrijgehouden ruimte overigens quasi onmogelijk.


The desired capacity turned out the be a huge overestimate, even with current traffic growth, the additional 2x3 lanes seems to be exaggerated. Changed attitude towards road construction from the 1970's onward made the construction of extra lanes in the median de-facto impossible.


----------



## keber

Thank you!


----------



## JOVANO

keber said:


> I saw on GE, that E19 from Brussels to (almost) Antwerpen has a built median reserve with all the objects for additional 2x3+2 lanes motorway. Will that be built some day?


Now they started constructing a railway on this middenberm/median reserve.
Railway will connect Antwerp with Brussels Airport and offer lots of faster/better connections al around.

Looks like Thalys and other High Speeds will use this track as ell.

Ready by 2012.


See Belgian Be.Forum Diabolo-tread


----------



## Wover

An "Aire" on the E42 between Liège and Sankt-Vith:




















This is from a year ago, but yesterday I drove it again to Luxembourg. In Sankth-Vith, I took the E421 which especially in Luxembourg is a very nice road . You should check it out sometime Chris.

Last year I drove until Troisvierges which has the first railway station after the border in Luxembourg. There I took the train to Luxembourg, which is very nice too. And it will cost you €3 for a round trip . But I guess that's just for rail enthousiasts. I'm both railway and road enthousiast, so I switch between train and car from time to time. I love both.

Another recommendation are the roads in the "Ardennes" between Dinant and Bertrix. There are no highways, but the secondary roads are lovely and quiet to drive. Also the "Oostkantons" (where they speak German) have some really nice roads in the "Hautes-Fagnes"/"Hoge Venen".

If your girlfriend is tired of driving, I'd love to give you a guided tour through these roads...

Greetings from Herentals (I live 200m from Herentals Industrie exit on the E313)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some German was caugt speeding on the E34 motorway, doing 246 km/h, the highest speeding fine ever given by the Antwerp province police department. He has to pay a € 600 fine.


----------



## PLH

He probably overlooked the border


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Two borders, to drive on the E34, you need to get a significant distance through the Netherlands first.


----------



## Glodenox

And I'm pretty sure that's his speed with a correction of like 10km/h. According to the car manufacturer the car's maximum speed is 250km/h, so it's pretty clear he was just testing out his car.

Depending on when he did that, it could've been extremely dangerous (though I don't think it should be allowed to drive harder at night).

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Alqaszar

250 km/h is a good travelling speed. That's what the left lane on the German Autobahn is for! Of course, here in Germany, Dutch drivers are a danger which tend to overtake some trucks or (Dutch) campers which ridiculous small speeds like 120 km/h in the "linke rijstrook" and that is, of course, irresponsible, because all the normal going traffic will be seriously endangered by those almost-standing, yellow-plated obstacles.

Just joking!!!

Actually, I guess speeds more than 200 km/h change the car into a homicidal device which can't be reasonably controlled by the driver.


----------



## Palance

That's why you Germans know that the abbrivation for our country (NL) means: "Nur Links" (_Left Only_) :banana:

And I know about the German jokes about what happens in your country when someone fails for his exams for his driverslicense.

He gets a yellow licenseplate


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ They have that license plate joke in France too. (you'll get a red-white license plate (Belgian) if you fail your exam).


----------



## Thermo

Sure about that? Never heard of that  Funny though...


btw: we'll get black-white license plates in the future...


----------



## Wover

From my experience, I'd say German drivers are the best drivers.

Here's my list:

1. Germany
2. Holland
3. Luxembourg
4. France
5. Belgium

This _might_ be influenced by the fact that I live in Belgium and meet more bad Belgian drivers, allthough there surely is some truth in that list .


----------



## LtBk

What makes Belgium drivers bad? Can't be much worse than drivers from the US state of Maryland.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Lack of drivers ed, different mentality. I've read on the Dutch wegenforum that Belgian adults have less problems with DUI.


----------



## Wover

Do you mean less problems with driving in that condition or less problems with accepting the limits?

I'm guessing you mean the first because sadly, that is true...

I even know a retired "Rijkswachter" (/Gendarmerie) which DUI'd at my grandparent's 50th wedding anniversary.

I made him aware that he had drunk too much, and he simply didn't realise it...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Sources say the "Oosterweelconnection" to complete the R1 ringroad in Antwerpen has politically been killed by the SPa socialist party.


----------



## cees

so they'r not going to build this connection anymore?, i thought they almost started building it, such a pity.!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.aspx?artikelId=C627E7SB (in Dutch)



> De prestigieuze Oosterweelverbinding is voltooid verleden tijd. De SP.A wil niet weten van de Lange Wapperbrug. Tien jaar werk gaat in rook op. De Antwerpse verkeersknoop lijkt onontwarbaar.


The prestigious Oosterweelconnection is history. The SP.A does not want to know about the Lange Wapper bridge. 10 years of work is gone. The Antwerp traffic problems seem unsolvable.


----------



## Timon91

That's a pity, the Lange Wapper bridge was a beautiful and prestigious project 










source


----------



## LtBk

Any reason why they killed the project?


----------



## Timon91

According to wiki the project was cancelled because of the continuous increasing price and the lack of communication about the project.


----------



## Josh

The project is NOT cancelled yet.


----------



## Thermo

Indeed, THE PROJECT IS NOT CANCELLED.

It's just the opinion of one political party (they want to be populist because the elections are coming).

Let's just wait a little bit longer...


----------



## Timon91

That still gives some hope. I wonder why De Standaard is so definate about it, if it's not yet certain.


----------



## JOVANO

De Standaard has since long become a bobo-newspaper. Bobo means bourgeois-bohémien. A kind of people with easy jobs (subsidized artistic sector, political parasites, journalists, euro- and other bureaucrats..) people with easy jobs, good salaries (like good res, expensive restaurants,..) but leftist, stuck in puberal thinking,..

A good crisis will help to get rid of this parasites.

De Standaard is specialized in stupid titles, manipulation of news and so on.

I like newspapers that bring news, not that make the news and push readers to a certain opinion.

This is a typical example of the Standaard style.


----------



## aswnl

Het Laatste Nieuws en de Gazet van Antwerpen zijn de Vlaamse persbronnen die ik meestal raadpleeg, als ik iets over België wil weten. Hoe staat het met de "partijdigheid" van die kranten ?

_HLN and GvA are Flemish newspapers I use when I want te read about developments in Belgium. How about the position of those papers ?_


----------



## Glodenox

HLN and GvA are a lot more neutral, though it would be a lie to say they never hint towards a political party - hardly ever the same though. I think it just depends on the journalist that puts the article online.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Cyclist biking 100 km/h (according to video, in my opinion it's no more than 80) on E42 motorway:


----------



## Timon91

And what if the truck suddenly brakes? This is really dangerous :nuts:


----------



## hix

It must be a trick video. It's not possible to cycle 100 km per hour!


----------



## Majestic

Not if you travel in aerodynamic tunnel and face no air resistance.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I doubt if you can peddle 100 km/h.

Besides that, trucks cannot even reach 100, and usually especially not this kind of dump trucks. The second note would be that the speedometer in cars is usually 5+ km/h off at higher speeds (you can actually check that with a GPS navigation). The car in the video is also closing in on the cyclist, so I think he doesn't go faster than 80 km/h, which would still be pretty amazing for a non-downhill road.

Not to mention this is just like suicide, if the truck has to brake, or there is a hole in the roadway (not uncommon on E42), you'll be just a couple of spatters on the pavement...


----------



## Wover

In the next few weeks, the feeding roads (opritten) will be resurfaced on the E313 between Geel and Wommelgem.

It's a good opportunity to check out the functionality of the newly placed overhead led-boards.

Unfortunately I'm in Finland for 3 months .


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A28 / N81 Arlon - Longwy*

The A28 is one of the least known Belgian motorways. Not a surprise, since it's only a couple of kilometers long, and lies outside the main routes. It is near Aubange, in the extreme southeastern Belgium, near the borders of France and Luxembourg.

Together with the N81 expressway it's part of an alternative route from Arlon to Metz via Longwy, you can detour possible traffic congestion in Luxembourg.

route:









1. Beginning of the N81 2x2 expressway just south of the E25 in Arlon.









2. The Wolkerange exit is just before this entrance, but it looks like you have to go the wrong way here. 









3. There are roundabouts on the N81. Traffic volumes are low.









4. Another roundabout on the industrial zone.









5. Typical Belgian road signs. Also seen in many other countries.









6. Closed exit at the time. (June 13th, 2007)









7. It's really a shame we don't have many of such roads in NL.









8. Bébange roundabout.









9. Southern Ardennes here. Elevations are low though.









10. Exit Aubange, start of A28 motorway.









11. Time for some cleaning here 









12. Very narrow offramp









13. Start of A28









14. Another Aubange exit.









15. Road quality is pretty bad, A28 is one of the worst motorways in Belgium. Not a high priority either.









16. This picture almost could have been take in the 1960's.









17. 2km until the French border.









18. Last exit in Belgium, Pétange is in Luxembourg.









19. Border ahead.









20. Exit N804









21. The French border!









22. Entering France. Speed limit 110









23. N18 exit.









24. In the Lorraine.









25. This is N218.









26. Longlaville exit.









27. End of the expressway already.


----------



## Thermo

Man, this looks like some third world country hno:

I've heard that the Walloon government is going to invest more money in their roads. About bloody time!


----------



## Timon91

Where do they get that money from? Flanders?


----------



## Mateusz

This road looks really poor


----------



## sotonsi

The A28 is rather pointlessly a motorway - it's not a motorway on the French side, just an N road (quite why they can't just extend the A30, I don't know). I'm guessing that more was planned? There's also the strange thing of the Luxembourg A13 and that not connecting to the A28, but dying just before the border.


----------



## Verso

Nice detour of Luxembourg.


----------



## Majestic

Wallonian highways are so typical: bad patched pavement, tropical vegetation, old and rusty roadsigns and barriers...


----------



## Verso

I like the tropical vegetation... until I miss an exit.


----------



## Mateusz

When was road N38 (Ieper-french border) built ?

It was good road


----------



## christos-greece

This motorway needs some restoration (almost in all parts)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I've read that the E411 is actually routed via the N81/A28 here, but it isn't signed as you can see. It's supposed to end on the E44 immediatly across the border.


----------



## Ingenioren

I have an old map where it's dotted from A28 to the east around Messancy to E25, it never happened tough.... Some of my relatives say they where poorly constructed in the first time, as E25/E411 has recently been completly renovated - and this is not that old a motorway, late 80's perhaps?

What is the speed-limit for these kind of 4 lane national roads? Are they 90 or 120? Some of them are not even divided....


----------



## CborG

Some random pics of belgian motorways:

Traffic jam on the Antwerp ring 









southern entrance of the Craeybeckxtunnel south of Antwerp









HDR photo of the E19 south of Antwerp









A54 near Charleroi


















N5 with downtown Charleroi on the background









R9 'Petite Ceinture' around the center of Charleroi, a one-way ringroad


















View on Charleroi from the R9


----------



## Mateusz

What's the name of that long viaduct/bridge on Brussel's Ring ?


----------



## CborG

^^I think you mean the 'Viaduct van Vilvoorde' in the northern part of the ring.


----------



## CborG

In and around Brussels

Chaussee de Charleroi:









Traffic jam on the R20 with Madou Plaza in sight.









A one-way street with five lanes, the Rue Belliard. This photo could just as easy been taken in NYC and makes me think of Amsterdam as a village. 









Entrance to the Belliardtunnel:









This tunnel connects the city centre with..:









The E40 towards Leuven









While driving back home I stumbled upon a true 1x3 road with suicide lane, the N2 between Leuven and Diest. Driving it was a new experience for me:


----------



## LtBk

Is it true that Belgium hasn't built a motorway in over 10 years?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

LtBk said:


> Is it true that Belgium hasn't built a motorway in over 10 years?


Well, they completed the E25 in Liège, which is quite important in my opinion. I'm not sure of the exact opening date, but it was somewhere early 2000's. 

And I'm not sure how old the E429 Halle - Tournai is, it looked pretty new.


----------



## Mateusz

Belgian motorways are my favourite 

Oh, BTW I will upload this picture of Belgian style eco crashbarrier


----------



## Glodenox

We don't call those lanes "suicide lanes". Basically, we don't even have a special name for them. It's just a lane you can use to overtake a slow moving vehicle.

Sure, it can get ugly if two drivers want to pass and aren't willing to give up, but in most cases, they're handy to have. Better of course is to just have a 2x2 road, but we often lack the place for those due to our bad planning in the past (and we're not really improving).

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ehm, virtually all Belgian motorways have emergency lanes...


----------



## Glodenox

Which "emergency lanes" are missing according to you?

Can't really say there's anything missing from these roads... Did you mean "Alternative routes" by any chance? (though I can't say we're really lacking those)

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## transport21

Firstly I noticed from a few photos but they were actually only interchanges not motorway mainline when I had a second look at them. So overall no comlaints re the Belgian Motorways. Im actually very impressed by them. 

Secondly Glodenox why do you have emergency lanes in inverted commas? What do you call them in your country as the term seems strange to you?

kind regards,


----------



## sotonsi

transport21 said:


> Secondly Glodenox why do you have emergency lanes in inverted commas? What do you call them in your country as the term seems strange to you?


Do any English speaking countries call them "emergency lanes"? Sounds nice and obvious as to what they are, but I'm sure both UK and US English calls them shoulders/hard shoulders.


----------



## transport21

sotonsi said:


> Do any English speaking countries call them "emergency lanes"? Sounds nice and obvious as to what they are, but I'm sure both UK and US English calls them shoulders/hard shoulders.


I thought they were called hard shoulders on dual carriageways and not on motorway but I could be proved wrong?


----------



## Bofter

In the state of Victoria we refer to them as Emergency Stopping Lanes but other Australian states seem not to follow this practice.


----------



## Glodenox

Sorry that I put them between quotes, but I just didn't really understand what you meant with that name ^_^; Wasn't sure whether you meant shoulders or not, so decided that would be the best way to write it seeing I wasn't sure about that word...

What we call that lane:
In Dutch: "pechstrook", which literally means: "breakdown lane". "pech" also translates to "bad luck", so not sure which of the two they were thinking of when they named those lanes here, but both translations are appropriate in this case 

In French: "bande des pneus crevés" (hardly used outside Belgium I've heard) or "bande d'arrêt d'urgence". They literally mean: "lane for flat tyres" and "lane for emergency stops".

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

> In Dutch: "pechstrook", which literally means: "breakdown lane".


Actually, that's the Flemish variant. In the Netherlands (also Dutch) we say "vluchtstrook". (flight lane).


----------



## aswnl

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the Netherlands (also Dutch) we say "vluchtstrook". (flight lane).


Sorry Chris, but it means _vluchten_: _fleeing_, not flying.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The word flight has meany meanings, and also means fleeing 



> The act of fleeing. (It is noun version of flee).


----------



## Glodenox

Oops, totally forgot about that ^_^

Thanks for the addition 

And it would translate to "fleeing lane" indeed.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How about "Escape lane"?

However, I prefer "shoulder", just because it's shorter and simple


----------



## aswnl

Hard shoulder is the best term.
Because that is what it _is_, and what it was original _meant to be_.


----------



## Slagathor

Nonsense, 'hard shoulder' is just another name. It's not an _actual_ shoulder, is it?


----------



## havaska

They're always called hard shoulders in the UK if they're paved. When the first motorway was built it was just stones and was known as a _soft shoulder_.

On some large non-motorway dual carriageways these still exist to an extent. But if it is paved it is always a _hard shoulder_.

An _escape lane_ is something completely different; these are usually at the bottom of steep hills where the road then goes around a bend. They're just gravel strips at the end of the corner so if a vehicle doesn't manage to slow in time or has a break failure it can just roll straight into the gravel which will then slow it to a stop.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pretty busy to the coast right now... 55 kilometers of traffic jam on the E40 between Erpe and Brugge.


----------



## Mateusz

I remember such lane on one of B-roads near Peninstone


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Boirs viaduct in E313


----------



## Mateusz

Reminds me of old viaducts of Trasa Łazienkowska in Warsaw


----------



## Majestic

^^ Those are only held together with the help of some rusty crashbarriers. :lol:


----------



## Timon91

How long will this viaduct still stand before it collapses? hno:


----------



## SkyView

Travelled across that bridge several times in last years, one direction is always closed and nothing seems to happen.
I saw some graffiti in Dutch, asking "lazy Walloons, finish that f*ing bridge"...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's in this area. I took this pic in 2006, I believe both bridges were still opened to traffic back then.


----------



## Mateusz

What's Anvers ? Antwerpen ?


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, the French way of writing Antwerpen


----------



## Mateusz

God, I was actually on that motorway and I couldn't guess what this means :nuts:


----------



## Slagathor

^^ The single biggest reason why you should avoid driving through Belgium. If you're trying to get to Lille, you should be looking for "Rijsel" - it's ridiculous.


----------



## Nexis

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Boirs viaduct in E313


and you Euros say us "American's" have bad infrastructure, look at the home Country of the EU HQ , lol that bridge is ready to crumblehno: , its only held together by rustic railings and Industrial Super Glued Joints :lol:


----------



## Mateusz

Slagathor said:


> ^^ The single biggest reason why you should avoid driving through Belgium. If you're trying to get to Lille, you should be looking for "Rijsel" - it's ridiculous.


Yeah, I saw quite a lot of Rijsel or Aix la Chapelle (Aachen?) :lol:


----------



## Timon91

Yes, that's Aachen 

Did you also see signs with Doornik? In French that town is called Tournai. Den Bosch, in the Netherlands, also has a french name: Bois-le-Duc :nuts:


----------



## Mateusz

Maybe simply they should put both names, at least I wouldn't have have look up every 2 minutes in map what even more weirdo names mean in more known forms


----------



## Timon91

In Belgium this will NEVER happen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, the idea of making signage more clear! It's in violation with the ridiculous language laws. Politics over clarity.


----------



## convalescence

I heard of so many people from my region who came back from the coast of Belgium or Netherlands and didn't find Liège at ring of Brussel or Antwerpen because it's signed as Luik... you always have to know the city's names in two languages to drive through Belgium without losing the way


----------



## Glodenox

I've always been of opinion that places should be named as they're officially called in their region. Any places in Flanders should be signed in Dutch, any places in Wallonia in French, and the both if the location is located in the Brussels area (Dutch signed first in Flanders, French first in Wallonia). The only exception where I'd keep the current situation for practical reasons would be Brussel/Bruxelles (Brussels). There's so many signs that would need to be replaced if that would change and the difference isn't that big...

That would be the fairest system according to me. Not only for those living there, but also for tourists who are trying to find their way to their location. Luckily most people already have a satnav in their car if they're going somewhere they don't know, which would solve this whole issue straight away, but that's no excuse for it.

And, indeed, sadly enough, this will most likely never happen. Language is one of the few things that unites Flanders, which is why we're so fierce about it. On signs though, and if applied in the whole country, I wouldn't care one bit.

EDIT: by the way: can someone remove that "lazy walloons" tag from this thread? I don't want my fellow countrymen to be called like that for some rusty bridge that didn't get maintenance due to incompetent politically placed people in some department that doesn't do its task as it should...

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Verso

"tropical vegetation" :lol:


----------



## Alqaszar

C'est bon, c'est belge. And always look out for the potholes. In Flanders and in Wallonia.

Btw, near Liège newer signs have been installed on the E 40 that show directions to Aachen and Trier, both in Germany, replacing the old "Aix-la-Chapelle" and "Trèves" ones. But you're still going to Anvers, I guess.


----------



## Snowguy716

Wow.. that bridge looks terrible. The bridge that collapsed in Minneapolis didn't have nearly that much damage. Is that representative of Belgian roads or is that the exception?


----------



## Slagathor

It used to be representative but the Belgians are turning it around. It is now very much an exception. A dreadful one at that.


----------



## Glodenox

That bridge certainly is an exception to the bridges I get to see around my region. I showed the pictures to some friends as well and they were astonished as well.

I am of opinion that lots of our bridges could do with a facelift. Not that they're not structurally sound, but they just look so old...

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Glodenox

A rare picture to take at that time of the day: an empty E19.










It had little to do with luck though, a hundred meters behind me they were placing a rail bridge over the motorway and as such it was closed off :lol:

Thought I'd share the picture nonetheless though.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## mgk920

^^
Why the wide median?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The E19 has a special history, it was planned as a super-expressway, only the outer lanes were constructed at that time, I believe it was planned to be 12 or 14 lanes, but never build. I thought I wrote something about it a couple of pages back.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Here it was:

http://www.wegen-routes.be/doss/A1n.html (in Dutch)



> Wel werd in het vijftienjarenprogramma van minister Omer Vanaudenhove (1960, kaart) een bijkomende autosnelweg tussen Brussel en Antwerpen via Mechelen opgenomen, die met het oog op de verkeerstoename zes rijstroken in elke richting moest tellen. De studie van Kirschen over de 'autosnelwegen van de tweevoudige verbindingsschakel' bevestigde de noodzaak van deze hoge capaciteit.


In the 15-years programma of minister Omer Vanaudenhove (1960, map) an additional freeway between Brussels and Antwerp via Mechelen was planned, that had to carry six lanes per direction due to future volumes. The study by Kirschen about the "freeways of double connections" acknowledged the necessity of this high capacity.



> Om het middelste gedeelte van de E19 de gewenste capaciteit van twaalf rijstroken te geven, werd tussen de verkeerswisselaars met de grote ring van Brussel en die van Antwerpen voor een afwijkend dwarsprofiel geopteerd. Centraal zouden tweemaal drie rijstroken worden aangelegd voor het doorgaand verkeer; deze 'directe snelweg' zou enkel aansluitingen kennen ter hoogte van Mechelen-Zuid en Mechelen-Noord. Aan weerszijden van deze snelweg kwam een 'omnibussnelweg' te liggen, met nogmaals tweemaal drie rijstroken en zes toegangscomplexen voor een eerder lokale bediening. Deze omnibussnelweg werd in de loop van de jaren 1970 gebouwd; tot de aanleg van de directe snelweg zou men pas overgaan op het moment dat de verkeerstoename dat vereiste.


To give the E19 it desired capacity of twelve lanes, a different layout was build between the interchanges of Brussel and Antwerp. 2x3 lanes were planned in the median with only 2 exits near Mechelen-Zuid and -North. Additional parallel lanes of 2x3 lanes were planned with 6 interchanges for local traffic. This collector/express setup was build in the 1970's, with only the local lanes being build. They planned to construct the express route when traffic required this.



> De voorziene capaciteit bleek later een grove overschatting. Zelfs wanneer men het gestaag toegenomen verkeer in rekening brengt, kan men het nut van tweemaal drie extra rijstroken betwijfelen. De veranderende mentaliteit ten aanzien van bijkomende wegenaanleg, vanaf de jaren 1970, maakte de aanleg van rijstroken in de vrijgehouden ruimte overigens quasi onmogelijk.


The desired capacity turned out the be a huge overestimate, even with current traffic growth, the additional 2x3 lanes seems to be exaggerated. Changed attitude towards road construction from the 1970's onward made the construction of extra lanes in the median de-facto impossible.


----------



## Glodenox

The wide median turned out to be a blessing for another project though: a railway line is now being constructed on the median which will transform the Brussels Airport station into a through-station and will allow trains from Antwerp to directly reach the station 

A part of that super-expressway has actually been built, but is now being removed again because the split-up from 3 lanes to 2x2 lanes turned out to cause too many accidents with people not being sure which lane to pick.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Glodenox said:


> A part of that super-expressway has actually been built, but is now being removed again because the split-up from 3 lanes to 2x2 lanes turned out to cause too many accidents with people not being sure which lane to pick.


Yeah, I have heard many stories about that. Kinda weird, the roadway splits, and you don't know if you should go left or right, so you decide to crash in the center? Kinda weird actually.


----------



## Mateusz

Gent needs outer bypass, there is too muchg traffic on current 'ring'


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yeah, I have heard many stories about that. Kinda weird, the roadway splits, and you don't know if you should go left or right, so you decide to crash in the center? Kinda weird actually.


Thanx!

:cheers1:

BTW, is there any resource available that shows the planned but never/not yet built motorways in Belgium (much like I found not long ago for Germany)? Poking around on Google Earth, I am amazed at the number of 'ghost' grades and interchanges in that area.

Ditto for Nederlands?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Belgium might be the king of "Grand Travaux Inutile" (Great unused works), for any kind of infrastructure.


----------



## Glodenox

Here's the translation by Google of the Dutch Wikipedia article about these "Grand Travaux Inutiles" (both Belgium and the Netherlands): http://translate.google.com/transla...rken&sl=nl&tl=en&history_state0=nl|en|&swap=1

We also have a topic about it in the Be. Forum here on SkyscraperCity, but it's completely in Dutch and doesn't have that many pictures...

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

9 trucks collided on the E17 near Destelbergen.


----------



## convalescence

Interesting what I read on that page (that one what google translated is a bit ridiculous but I can understand a little bit dutch due to german dialect knowledge )










Bridge over railway near Varsenare for a neverbuilt motorway to Zeebrugge? The expressway west of Bruges is a mess! It's always horrible to drive there, it starts coming from the interchange and 1km from it there are traffic lights that let the traffic jam upto the interchange... I realized that they are working on the expressway to avoid the traffic lights and that's very good... but a real motorway would've been a good solution as well... there is enough traffic from E40 to the sea...









near Hasselt for planned A24 to Eindhoven if I read correctly?
also interesting... I really would like to know more about abandoned motorway projects in Belgium


----------



## Thermo

Can you find the highway?


----------



## cristof

great the last pic  it's the E411 above Namur right? or the E25 not sure of that


----------



## Glodenox

convalescence said:


> near Hasselt for planned A24 to Eindhoven if I read correctly?
> also interesting... I really would like to know more about abandoned motorway projects in Belgium


That bridge was built for a road between Hasselt and Ghent. It was meant to become a 4-lane (2x2) road, but is now used as a local road.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## SkyView

Glodenox said:


> That bridge was built for a road between Hasselt and Ghent.


Small correction : between Hasselt and Genk


----------



## Glodenox

It's Genk indeed. My bad. Must've misread the Wikipedia page 
Thanks for the correction 

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another big crash on E313:


----------



## Wover

The electronic speed limit signs above the E313 and the R1 have been broken since at least 3 days now. This means that for once, you can drive 120 on the Antwerp ringroad, since there are no non-electronic signs.

I do recommend slowing down to 100 at the Kennedytunnel for the speed camera though .

ps: It's only the speed limit signage above the lanes that is broken, the other electronic signs still work but only say that the lanesignalisation is out of service.


----------



## Glodenox

Went past that changed section of the E19 a couple of days ago and took some pictures.

What it used to look like (credit to tram2 for taking/finding these pictures):



























After the exit, both sections join again. But as you can see from the last picture: people often collided there (couldn't make up their mind whether they'd go left or right?).

Now however, the motorway just becomes a 4-lane road:



















This weird situation still exists in the other direction though and so far I haven't heard of any plans to change it over there as well.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## PLH

Why it was like this before? Because of a viaduct or a brigde?


----------



## Glodenox

To quote ChrisZwolle on the previous page:



ChrisZwolle said:


> In the 15-years programma of minister Omer Vanaudenhove (1960, map) an additional freeway between Brussels and Antwerp via Mechelen was planned, that had to carry six lanes per direction due to future volumes. The study by Kirschen about the "freeways of double connections" acknowledged the necessity of this high capacity.
> 
> To give the E19 it desired capacity of twelve lanes, a different layout was build between the interchanges of Brussel and Antwerp. 2x3 lanes were planned in the median with only 2 exits near Mechelen-Zuid and -North. Additional parallel lanes of 2x3 lanes were planned with 6 interchanges for local traffic. This collector/express setup was build in the 1970's, with only the local lanes being build. They planned to construct the express route when traffic required this.
> 
> The desired capacity turned out the be a huge overestimate, even with current traffic growth, the additional 2x3 lanes seems to be exaggerated. Changed attitude towards road construction from the 1970's onward made the construction of extra lanes in the median de-facto impossible.


So basically, they already built one section but wanted to expand it in the future. Nowadays they realise that the problem isn't the width of the motorway, but the intersections at both ends of the motorway. Now that one section they've built has been removed because it was just causing too much confusion. Why it took that long to remove it, nobody knows.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are T-roads in Belgium, see:
http://picasaweb.google.be/tommeke3577/TWegen#5363126606754568258


----------



## Glodenox

What are those T-roads? Judging from those pictures: they're bicycle lanes? Never seen such marking before... Can't find anything about them on the internet yet... Nice find!

The only type of road I know of that is fairly rare to see are B-roads. They're "connecting roads", like providing access between the A1 and the N1 in Mechelen-South.

EDIT: ignore that "couldn't find anything on the internet": List of T-roads.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

T-routes are very local roads, often not accesible to motorized traffic.
Check this page:
http://www.autosnelwegen.net/be/frames.html?/be/tb.html


----------



## Glodenox

My link works better ^_^

Odd... Very odd. I fail to see why such local roads would need numbering, but I guess it doesn't do any harm.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

For those who are interested: Belgium just got full coverage in Google Earth. The earlier coverage was low-res, now they're at lead good resolution (not the best offered in Gearth though).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

For those travelling in Belgium, here's a list with control cities and how they're signed in either Wallonia or Flandres.

first: actual name, second: signed in the other language area

Aachen -> Aix-la-Chapelle / Aken
Antwerpen -> Anvers
Brugge -> Bruges
Brussel / Bruxelles
Charleroi -> Charleroi
Gent -> Gand
Huy -> Hoei
Kortrijk -> Courtrai
Leuven -> Louvain
Liège -> Luik
Lille -> Rijsel
Mons -> Bergen
Namur -> Namen
Nivelles -> Nijvel
Tournai -> Doornik

Of course, there are many more, but these are the most prominent cities on the signage along freeways and main roads.


----------



## Slagathor

Aix la Chapelle, now that should be illegal.


----------



## Palance

ChrisZwolle said:


> Of course, there are many more, but these are the most prominent cities on the signage along freeways and main roads.


More translations can be found here/


----------



## Timon91

Yeah, this is the result of the endless Flanders-Wallonia discussion hno:


----------



## Glodenox

As for the Google Earth images: the images now have a resolution of 40cm/pixel. The region Antwerp-Brussels hasn't changed though, because that region was already 15cm/pixel since 2004.

As for those names on signs: I've always been in favour of just signing them in the official language(s) of the town in question. It's just not doable to have up to 3 different names posted in just one country.

Those signs have *always* been like that though. They haven't change due to the language discussions or anything. So they're not caused by them at all. At that time it just seemed obvious that the names used would be the names that the region calls them. At that time there weren't many foreign people on our roads yet - which is completely different now.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## convalescence

just a picture of the Our valley bridge (E42 next to German border) near Steinebrück I took today


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nobody got hurt:


----------



## convalescence

going in vacation in 2 weeks and plan to drive A11/E34/N49. Does anyone know if there are still so many traffic lights-junctions west of Zeltate?
At wikipedia (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/A11_(België)) I think I read that it's planned to build it along Westkapelle to Bruges as full A11! (another link to the project: http://wegen.vlaanderen.be/wegen/missinglinks/ax-a11.pdf)

But why are they building it like this? Wouldn't be a shorter connection directly from Maldegem to Bruges be faster and more useful as west-east-connection? Is the traffic from Knokke/Sluis to Bruges so immense or is it just to have a direct connection to N31-expressway westbound of Bruges? Without N31 built completely grade-seperated there are many questions marks in my head now...


----------



## SkyView

convalescence said:


> going in vacation in 2 weeks and plan to drive A11/E34/N49. Does anyone know if there are still so many traffic lights-junctions west of Zeltate?
> At wikipedia (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/A11_(België)) I think I read that it's planned to build it along Westkapelle to Bruges as full A11! (another link to the project: http://wegen.vlaanderen.be/wegen/missinglinks/ax-a11.pdf)
> 
> But why are they building it like this? Wouldn't be a shorter connection directly from Maldegem to Bruges be faster and more useful as west-east-connection? Is the traffic from Knokke/Sluis to Bruges so immense or is it just to have a direct connection to N31-expressway westbound of Bruges? Without N31 built completely grade-seperated there are many questions marks in my head now...


Welcome in our over crowded and over sprawled Nimbyland ! 
Each new planned inch of concrete is the beginning of endless discussions, studies, restudies, opposite conclusions with the same result : nothing is done !
With this in mind, the accepted AX from Westkapelle to Zeebrugge can be seen as a miracle, though until the first shovel goes into the ground I wouldn't bet my house on its realisation.


----------



## Thermo

Some pics of the N25 near Nivelles/Nijvel:


----------



## Norsko

^^

Will this be a full profile motorway (do not know what prefix "N" means in Belgium  ). In that case I find the starting point quite interesting.


----------



## Glodenox

N = National Road
A = Autostrade (= motorway)

Unless they limit the speed with signs, according to the road rules, it'd be allowed to drive 120km/h there.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I have driven N25 in 2007. Speed limit = 120 km/h, but I did see tractors there.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I made a bunch of videos in Belgium last Friday.

Liège tour:





N63 Liège - Marche





N89 Southern Belgium


----------



## Fender56

Once I heard, that you in Belgium use some kind of physical barrier, to prevent cars to go down, in the wrong direction on the highways, is this correct. And how does it look/work.?

Personally i´ve never driven in Belgium, but hopefully will in the future.


----------



## Filou

Fender56 said:


> Once I heard, that you in Belgium use some kind of physical barrier, to prevent cars to go down, in the wrong direction on the highways, is this correct.


I think you are mistaken. I've never heard of such a barrier.


----------



## Fender56

Filou said:


> I think you are mistaken. I've never heard of such a barrier.


Could be it was only an experiment, i´m almost certain it was in Belgium or could perhaps be Holland. 

The barriers i´m talking about was installed in the asphalt and was supposed to tear the tires apart, if you went down in the wrong direction, and if you came from the highway, these tire shredders just tipped down.


I just found an American example of the system.:

http://www.tigerteethusa.com/html/stingray___tiger_teeth_tire_sh.html


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I never heard of such devices on the highway, it would be quite dangerous, if you accidentally cross the center line, and your vehicle would become uncontrollable, or emergency services can't use the other traffic lanes to bypass a traffic jam for example.

They are probably used at high-security sites, such as airports or military bases.


----------



## Fender56

ChrisZwolle said:


> I never heard of such devices on the highway, it would be quite dangerous, if you accidentally cross the center line, and your vehicle would become uncontrollable, or emergency services can't use the other traffic lanes to bypass a traffic jam for example.
> 
> They are probably used at high-security sites, such as airports or military bases.


The meaning is offcourse, not to use them directly on the highway itself, but at the exit lanes.!


----------



## crcorp

Concerning your three videos in post 621, ChrisZwolle, you took this way because it is shorter/faster than taking the E25?
When I drive back&forward from Paris to Limburg, I usually follow the (French) A1, A2 and then the E42, but sometimes I also take the eastern route following the (French) A4, A34 (free ) and then a small bunch of the N89 to gain access to the E411 to meet up with the E25 a few km further.

There is a plan that the French A34 highway should continue in Belgium towards Namur and Liège, but I have the impression these plans will not be carried out anytime soon...

What would your preference be for the Belgian part: E411+E25 or the N89+N4+N63?


----------



## Suburbanist

Fender56 said:


> The meaning is offcourse, not to use them directly on the highway itself, but at the exit lanes.!


They are meant for parking lots or security gates. Maximum speed (as for the manufacturer website) = 5 mph.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Another video: E42 in eastern Belgium.


----------



## Alqaszar

The highway ChrisZwolle filmed is one of my favorite ones. The very best parts are the curves in Verviers, but the rollercoaster parts in the Haute Fagnes area aren bad either. Beware of the potholes, we're in Belgium after all.


----------



## snowman159

ChrisZwolle said:


> I never heard of such devices on the highway, it would be quite dangerous, if you accidentally cross the center line, and your vehicle would become uncontrollable, or emergency services can't use the other traffic lanes to bypass a traffic jam for example.
> 
> They are probably used at high-security sites, such as airports or military bases.



That was also tested in Austria. I don't know how successful these devices were or if they're still in place. 

It's installed at the end of off-ramps, so that cars trying to enter a freeway from the wrong side have their tires slashed and can't proceed onto the freeway. Because it's at the end of an off-ramp where there's either a stop sign or traffic light, there are no high speeds involved and it's perfectly save.

And yes, they also have them at some parking lots to keep people from backing out without paying.


----------



## Palance

Some pictures I have taken yesterday travelling from France to the Netherlands between Tournai/Doornik and Antwerpen.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I believe E429 was one of the last larger road projects in Belgium. The last sections opened in 1991 and 2000.


----------



## Tom 958

Is this here?


----------



## Glodenox

Tom 958 said:


> Is this here?


Yep, that's the bridge 

More pictures can be found here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=974710&page=10

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## mgk920

Does anyone have a map of planned and unbuilt motorways in Belgium? I was just checking some aerial images of the Brussels area, noticed a LOT of 'ghost' ends and grades on the area's highway system and would love to see where these were all planned to go.

Mike


----------



## Penn's Woods

"Portique de signalisation" = sign gantry?

http://www.lesoir.be/regions/liege/...-de-signalisation-tombe-sur-la-e40-773672.php


----------



## 3naranze

^^ya


----------



## Palance

Some random pictures from last weekend from both Flemish and Walloon Brabant (Vlaams Brabant & Brabant Wallon).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Nice 

What would this topic be without us Dutchmen


----------



## msz2

Wover said:


> Info about the entire high speed line (all "will"s and "is going to"s can be replaced by "are"s, so the project is completely finished now).
> 
> http://www.tucrail.be/EN/projects/NationalProjects/Pages/HSLeast.aspx
> 
> Extract for the bridges:
> 
> 
> 
> So I think it's "Viaduc de Battice"
> 
> 
> edit: yup: http://www.valens.eu/nl/pages/e/e11.html


Thanks.


----------



## CNGL

Anyone has a list of all ringroads (R-xx) in Belgium?


----------



## Penn's Woods

CNGL said:


> Anyone has a list of all ringroads (R-xx) in Belgium?


There's one on the Internet somewhere, not sure I can find it again....

EDIT:
I found it, but it's one of those sites where each page doesn't have its own URL, so:
go to www.autosnelwegen.net,
click on the B in the upper left,
then click on "Ringwegen [R]" (or the links to the right of that in other languages - they all bring you to the same quadrilingual page).


----------



## CNGL

Thanks. Now I will make crazy things with them. So there's no ringroads on Luxemburg and Namur provinces...

Some questions:
Where's Luik? _(Liège)_
Where's Bergen? In Norway? _(No, Mons)_
Where's Anvers? _(Antwerpen)_
And others that a driver will ask on a drive through Belgium 

Edit: The thanks goes to Palance, who made the webpage.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Or:

http://www.autosnelwegen.net/be/frames.html?/be/rb.html


----------



## Penn's Woods

CNGL said:


> So there's no ringroads on Luxemburg and Namur provinces...


Or did someone just not finish the list? Doubtful, but those provinces would be at the end, in numerical order.... I'd check it against, say, Wikipedia.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Or:
> 
> http://www.autosnelwegen.net/be/frames.html?/be/rb.html


How'd you get it to do that? All I see in my browser window is "http://www.autosnelwegen.net"....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

These links are often hidden in the main address bar, but can be seen on the lower right when hovering the mouse over a link, or you can copy the link location like this:


----------



## Palance

Penn's Woods said:


> EDIT:
> I found it, but it's one of those sites where each page doesn't have its own URL, so:
> go to www.autosnelwegen.net,
> click on the B in the upper left,
> then click on "Ringwegen [R]" (or the links to the right of that in other languages - they all bring you to the same quadrilingual page).


Thanks for visiting my site  Of course every page has its own URL, I am using frames to prevent that visitors should leave the navigation bare and get lost.


----------



## Palance

And now something commpletely different: No highways (except the last part) but a trip though the industrial area of Antwerpen. It starts on the R2 and ends on the Dutch border.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^
When I saw those blacked-out texts on a couple of the last signs, I thought for a second you were somewhere along the linguistic frontier....


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^
And that very last sign, with the Dutch route number on top and the Belgian number inside? I'm not sure what to make of that. Is that on the Belgian side of the border (if you're already in Holland, I'd expect only the Dutch number, heading in that direction)? Because if so, it would make more sense to me to reverse the position of the route numbers: The (Belgian) A12 on top because that's the route you're on - at least that's what a route number on top of a sign would mean in France - and the (Dutch) A4 together with the destinations, so as to say "Rotterdam and Bergen-op-Zoom via the A4."


----------



## Penn's Woods

Extreme hot weather causes damage to Brussels ring (article in French):

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/bruxelle...e-le-revetement-sur-le-ring-de-bruxelles.html

Holes formed in the two left lanes (does that mean one each direction?)


----------



## Palance

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^
> When I saw those blacked-out texts on a couple of the last signs, I thought for a second you were somewhere along the linguistic frontier....


In this case the language stays the same, only the name of the country changes  The blacked-out text was "Douane" (_customs_).

Tha last picture: The sign is still in Belgium (You could see the Dutch EU-sign in the background). The road is still A12 here, and the Dutch road A4. Indeed, one of those roadnumbers is useless here.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A lot of Dutchmen started their summer vacation, and waited until past the weekend to watch the WC final. As often, the E19 is a major chokepoint, and the result was an 80(!) kilometer traffic jam stretching from Antwerpen to Gorinchem in the Netherlands.

Funnily enough, there were no problems at the Maastricht traffic lights, most people apparently preferred the route via Antwerpen - Brussel. (it is a few km shorter than via Liège if you're coming from Utrecht and your destination is south of Luxembourg).


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> A lot of Dutchmen started their summer vacation, and waited until past the weekend to watch the WC final. As often, the E19 is a major chokepoint, and the result was an 80(!) kilometer traffic jam stretching from Antwerpen to Gorinchem in the Netherlands.
> 
> Funnily enough, there were no problems at the Maastricht traffic lights, most people apparently preferred the route via Antwerpen - Brussel. (it is a few km shorter than via Liège if you're coming from Utrecht and your destination is south of Luxembourg).


I read over the weekend (my interest in Belgium is almost - almost - as pathological as your knowledge of every fricking road in the world  ) that the Cointe tunnel (A602/E25) will be closed for most of the summer. Which is a good reason to avoid Liège.

If you read French: http://www.lesoir.be/regions/liege/2010-07-10/evitez-a-tout-prix-le-tunnel-de-cointe-781020.php


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Interesting, didn't know that. 

There are some errors in that story though. E40 doesn't run through the Cointe tunnel and E45 is nowhere near Belgium.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Severe weather also affected Belgium. Several motorways were closed or inaccessible after many downed trees blocked traffic. Underpasses filled with water and a church in Ciney was severely damaged by a tornado. Air traffic was suspended for a period of time at Brussels Airport.

Pics by De Standaard newspaper:

A54 Gosselies (near Charleroi):


















La Louvière:


----------



## neon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=946Ivc9J9Fg


----------



## lambersart2005

Hey!
I herad they are reconstructing the interchange of A19 and the R8 Ring Kortrijk/Courtrai. Does anybody know how it will look like? And are there still plans to ckose the gap on the southern side of the ring paralleling A14? Is it really necessary so close to the neighboring highway or is local traffic so intense? If you have photos of this part of the ring (resp. the southeastern/southwestern terminus), I would be really interested!

:cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

R1 Antwerpen, by Antwerp skyliner:








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4860202853/sizes/l/in/photostream/


----------



## Glodenox

That part of the R1 is already pretty wide, but there's another section that's even wider. The section where both the A1/E19 and A12 join the ring is 6x7 lanes.

The intersection on the picture is near the railwaystation Antwerpen-Oost. You can see some of the tracks in the right-top corner.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Spookvlieger

*Some pictures I found:*

Cloverleaf Gent (R4/E17)










Ecoduct Dilbeek










Piece of shit highway in Lummen. Luckely there renewing it...(E313/E314)










E40 motorway between Brussels/Liège in Tiennen.










Ring of Antwerp:


----------



## Spookvlieger

Turbine in Gent: (E40/E17)


----------



## nerdly_dood

Was a picture that big really necessary?

This is why I don't mind Photobucket's 1 megabyte limit. Smaller images actually fit on people's screens.


----------



## Spookvlieger

nerdly_dood said:


> Was a picture that big really necessary?
> 
> This is why I don't mind Photobucket's 1 megabyte limit. Smaller images actually fit on people's screens.


I know.. This one is from panoramio... that's why its is that big...


----------



## nerdly_dood

joshsam said:


> I know.. This one is from panoramio... that's why its is that big...


Just take a screenshot of Google Maps and put that on Photobucket. But Photobucket is blocked where I work... so, ... yeah.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I never understood what they're doing at interchange Lummen. I passed there in 2007, and there were roadworks already to reconstruct the interchange. Now 3 years later, not much progress seems to be made. What is up with that? In 3 years they've rebuilt 5 interchanges and numerous exits around Eindhoven in the same time.


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> I never understood what they're doing at interchange Lummen. I passed there in 2007, and there were roadworks already to reconstruct the interchange. Now 3 years later, not much progress seems to be made. What is up with that? In 3 years they've rebuilt 5 interchanges and numerous exits around Eindhoven in the same time.


That's just the way it goes in Belgium I guess. They start working then someone complains, works shut down, start over again, complaining...Then I understood a brige was build wrong so they had to break it down again, and blabla . Always something wrong in this country of ours...hno: In the end everything is always more paperwork then actual work. If I see how long it takes for investers to do something in Belgium I can understand that some not even want to invest... When you need to build a project and you hear it is in Belgium: That would be like you're worst nightmare!


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> I never understood what they're doing at interchange Lummen. I passed there in 2007, and there were roadworks already to reconstruct the interchange. Now 3 years later, not much progress seems to be made. What is up with that? In 3 years they've rebuilt 5 interchanges and numerous exits around Eindhoven in the same time.


And the picture above is not recent...Several bridges and new roads are constructed but indeed it's not finnished yet afther 3 years:bash:


----------



## MAG

joshsam said:


> *Some pictures I found:*
> 
> 
> 
> Piece of shit highway in Lummen. Luckely there renewing it...(E313/E314)


Does anyone know how much lower the capacity is of such an interchange, where a roundabout is used instead of a turbine or a maltese-cross stack? Visually, it is an elegant solution but I know it is capacity limited, just can't remember how much lower.



.


----------



## sotonsi

that looks large enough to turn into a turbine fairly easily should it need it. Capacity on 3-level roundabout interchanges is a lot lower, but they can cope with rather a large volume of traffic moving slowly - the problem is getting traffic moving slowly and smoothly through it.

I'd say that given both roads are 2x2 it will be fine (or is that just through the junction)


----------



## Glodenox

That's exactly what they're doing with it by the way. The roundabout is becoming a turbine. They started in 2007 and plan to finish in 2012.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

We have such an interchange in the Netherlands as well: interchange Rottepolderplein between Haarlem and Amsterdam. It shouldn't be too big a problem if the exiting traffic load isn't too high. But as the E313-E314 is the shortest route from Antwerpen to Aachen and beyond, there is a lot of traffic that has to use the roundabout three-quarters. It also serves as part of a regional ring road around the city of Hasselt. 

So reconstructing it into a turbine is a good idea. 

Speaking of turbines, full turbines are rather rare, but Belgium has a few of them. Usually only half of the interchange are turbines, the others are cloverleafs, hence the name "cloverturbine".

I'd say full turbines approach the capacity of a full stack. The advantage of a turbine is that the turn-off directions can be made at high speed which allows for 2- or even 3-lane connector roads.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Um, what's a turbine?


----------



## SkyView

Penn's Woods said:


> Um, what's a turbine?


Take a look at the megapicture here above (Gent)


----------



## Spookvlieger

sotonsi said:


> that looks large enough to turn into a turbine fairly easily should it need it. Capacity on 3-level roundabout interchanges is a lot lower, but they can cope with rather a large volume of traffic moving slowly - the problem is getting traffic moving slowly and smoothly through it.
> 
> I'd say that given both roads are 2x2 it will be fine (or is that just through the junction)


They really need a turbine here... In rush hour you get delayed traffic for several miles because of this interchange and a lot of accidents occure there... The highway is 2x2 indeed but they really need a 3x3 highway. It's always jammed for miles because a line of trucks always take the right lane so there is only one lane left for cars...


----------



## Spookvlieger

*Rendering of the new interchange:*


----------



## Spookvlieger

*More recent picture*


----------



## Spookvlieger

The never ending line of trucks: Live image.
Exit E314 to E313 on the interchange of lummen direction Antwerp.










*On this site a map and live fotage of Motorways in Flanders.*

http://www.verkeerscentrum.be/verkeersinfo/kaart


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A12 Rupel Tunnel*

A classic Belgian fail... The two right lanes were closed in the Rupel Tunnel due to an accident. Out of the 10 or so dynamic signs, only 1 was working, and showed the wrong layout. The right 2 lanes were closed by electronic signs, yet everyone was ignoring these...

Well, here are the pics:


----------



## Wover

Video from a random blog that I found.

It starts somewhere in Antwerp suburbia, then joins the ringroad in the direction of Holland (E19), then joins the A12 (direction Bergen-op-Zoom), then the exit to E34 - Knokke and eventually goes through the Tijsmanstunnel, takes the exit to Lillo and drives on the most important harbour road.

The spot where she pulls over in the end is also one of my favourite spots in Antwerp and I also love the road going there.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In the endless Oosterweel soap in Antwerpen, they have now chosen a toll tunnel to close the R1 ring road. Initially, a bridge was preferred because of its lower cost, a tunnel would've proven € 350 million more expensive (some see this as a way too optimistic additional cost). 

The new tunnel will feature 2x2 lanes, will be of cut & cover nature and will cost € 3.05 billion. The new tunnel has a preliminary completion date of January 1st, 2021, over 25 years after the initial start of procedures.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Masterplan Antwerpen:

* New 2x2 toll tunnel under the Schelde (Scheldt) River.
* New motorway A102-R11 along the east side of Antwerpen, mostly underground
* New parallel roads to E34 and E17 west of Antwerpen
* Improvement on E313 
* Improvement A12 in Aartselaar
* Several new connections in the suburbs
* Improvement R1-A112 interchange on the south side of Antwerpen
* Removal of the Merksem viaduct on R1.


----------



## Wover

It's largely a big joke and also a good example of Belgian decision making:

- Side A says go for this
- Side B says no, go for this instead

= Government comes up with plan that's not appreciated by either of the sides and is just total crap.

Pic of the mentioned Merksem viaduct just for your information, not that I feel bad that it will go  :


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interchange Zwijnaarde near Gent. Belgium is one of the few countries which uses full turbine interchanges.


----------



## mapman:cz

What's the current status of A2×A13 interchange reconstruction? I completely forgot the timeline


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=GR130TVTE

Belgium's motorways are the unsafest in all of Europe. 15% of all traffic fatalities occured on motorways, an increase from 11% 20 years ago. 139 people were killed on Belgian motorways, against 60 people on Dutch motorways, while the Netherlands has 6 million more inhabitants - which means Belgian motorways are 3.5 times less safe than the Dutch ones.


----------



## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> the Netherlands has 6 million more inhabitants - which means Belgian motorways are 3.5 times less safe than the Dutch ones.


No it doesn't - it means that if you are Belgian you are, on average, 3.5 times more likely to die on the motorway than if you are Dutch, providing everyone stays within their borders.

You need to divide fatality stats by how much people travel to get a safety comparison that is legitimate.


----------



## Wimpie

I've recently made a video on the repaved E40

Youtube


----------



## ChrisZwolle

sotonsi said:


> You need to divide fatality stats by how much people travel to get a safety comparison that is legitimate.


I agree, but those statistics are not always at hand, and sometimes unreliable due to different measuring methods. But I think the numbers would turn out even worse because Dutch roads are generally even busier than the Belgian ones.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wimpie said:


> I've recently made a video on the repaved E40
> 
> Youtube


Looks great, those 4 lanes. Hopefully more will be done soon, like R0 and E313. The section from Leuven to Liège isn't too good either in terms of pavement quality, but at least we can't complain about the capacity there; 40.000 vehicles on 2x3 lanes.


----------



## Bypass

^^The cloverleaf in Lummen is finished  It's now an turbine


----------



## Wimpie

It's not completly finished yet, it's now completly conflict free but they still need to rebuild quite a few bridges.

@ Chris, indeed the pavement on that side is quite old and noisy, I hope they'll give it a repavement similar to the one they other side got in the past few years. The traffic signage on the Flemish side of the the freeways is good tough.

I also have a video of the E314, the freeway on which Interchange Lummen is located;Youtube


----------



## piotr71

Suicide lanes stil exist. N9 near Brugge.

Strangely, MB's driver was still alive after overtaking.


----------



## Maxx☢Power

How do you know that the middle lane can be used in both directions? Are there signs for it?


----------



## Slagathor

You take a chance, that's why it's called the suicide lane.


----------



## Wimpie

Maxx☢Power;65910743 said:


> How do you know that the middle lane can be used in both directions? Are there signs for it?


These road became very rare but they're still found in more rural regions.
In Belgium the law on traffic regulations enforces a "keep right at all times on every road" rule. So people know that they've to keep right on this road and can only use the middle lane for overtaking. Thus this type of road is more safe than the regular 1+1 since the middle lane knows very few traffic because it is only used for overtaking.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

E40 from Viaduc de Cheratte near Liège.


----------



## Maxx☢Power

Slagathor said:


> You take a chance, that's why it's called the suicide lane.





Wimpie said:


> These road became very rare but they're still found in more rural regions.
> In Belgium the law on traffic regulations enforces a "keep right at all times on every road" rule. So people know that they've to keep right on this road and can only use the middle lane for overtaking. Thus this type of road is more safe than the regular 1+1 since the middle lane knows very few traffic because it is only used for overtaking.


Sounds super safe kay:


----------



## piotr71

*E34 Meldegen-Antwerp's* ring.










I'd rather copy information from Wiki to let you understand it easily, than create anything by myself .

_By the early 1990s the western portion of the route, between Antwerp and the coast, was a dual carriageway with frequent intersections, the more busy of which were controlled by traffic lights and marked by 90 kilometres per hour (56 mph) speed limits. Starting at the Antwerp end, this part of the E 34 has more recently been progressively upgraded with junctions either eliminated or else replaced by motorway-style intersections. The road is still of sub-motorway quality between the coast and Zelzate, but to the east of the road tunnel under the Ghent-Terneuzen Canal, the upgrade is virtually complete. The upgrade from National road to Autoroute quality has been reflected in a name change, from N49 to A11: in terms of national road numbers, as long as the upgrade remains incomplete, the two names are currently used interchangeably or together (N49-A11) when referring to the full length between Antwerp and Zeebrugge. In Belgium the E route numbers are given prominence at least equal to nationally assigned road numbers, so that in practice the road may be marked, using all three names, as the N49-E 34-A11. Locally the road is often referred to more simply as the expressway (den expresweg)._

I drove on this road about 4 years ago. Back then most of it had concreted surface in very bad condition. What it looks like now? Have a look:

This part of E34 is signed as N49 because it still does not meet motorway's regulations.






























































































































Motorway A11 starts from the next picture.


----------



## piotr71

I think, it means "works on hard shoulder"













































Unfortunately, going to one of Belgian-Dutch border crossing, I missed most impressive piece of enginering on this road which is tunnel under Ghent-Terneuzen Canal.


----------



## piotr71

I had chosen to drive on ring 2 with an intention to make some nice pics of toll section of this road, unfortunately(again) my camera displayed communicate: _memory is full_. There was no place to park a car anywhere since then, so I could not erase unwanted pictures.. I paid bloody 5.50 euros to cross tunnels with hope that the rest of Antwerp's ring is clear. Unfortunately(!) it wasn't!



















Next pics come from Antwerp's ring and E34 to the Dutch border.


----------



## piotr71

Queues likely.


----------



## piotr71

*E34 Antwerp-Dutch border*.


----------



## Wover

>


It means "Works in Desteldonk", where Desteldonk is most likely the name of an exit on the motorway.


----------



## piotr71

Exactly! 

http://maps.google.pl/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=pl&geocode=&q=Desteldonk,+Gent,+Vlaams+Gewest,+Belgi%C3%AB&sll=51.31334,5.250607&sspn=0.083586,0.264187&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Desteldonk+Gandawa,+Prowincja+Flandria+Wschodnia,+Region+Flamandzki,+Belgia&ll=51.122085,3.781099&spn=0.010492,0.033023&t=h&z=16


----------



## piotr71

To whom it may concern I am posting a link to my album.
I know some users can't see picasa's images for unknown reasons.

*http://picasaweb.google.pl/109480072698896029207/E34Belgium?feat=directlink*


----------



## Wimpie

My newest creation, a less known freeway which is part of the ringroad of Brussels.

Youtube


----------



## Verso

One of my favorite (4-lane) roads is in Brussels:









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5590983 by foggie_









_http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8024047 by Paduamesmo_


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Ah N3, not a very common route to take if you don't live in the eastern suburbs. Most through traffic uses nearby N4 or R0. 

This is also interesting, near Tervuren, a wildly oversized divided highway, probably dating back from the pre-automobile era. It ends at a palace.


----------



## Verso

ChrisZwolle said:


> Ah N3, not a very common route to take if you don't live in the eastern suburbs.


I don't know, we used it from Brussels to Luxembourg. You can also enter motorway from it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Unexpected congestion can be very dangerous:


----------



## ArthurK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unexpected congestion can be very dangerous:


That's unbelievable. :runaway:

They should reduce the speed limit to 50 km/h well ahead of the road works. Just warning signs is not enough; they shouldn't just blame the drivers. hno:


----------



## Suburbanist

ArthurK said:


> That's unbelievable. :runaway:
> 
> They should reduce the speed limit to 50 km/h well ahead of the road works. Just warning signs is not enough; they shouldn't just blame the drivers. hno:


That wouldn't work either. What you really need is variable signaling. An otherwise unreasonable low speed limit will divert awareness. This problem is particularly serious in tunnels prone to congestion, like this:


----------



## Spookvlieger

ArthurK said:


> That's unbelievable. :runaway:
> 
> They should reduce the speed limit to 50 km/h well ahead of the road works. Just warning signs is not enough; they shouldn't just blame the drivers. hno:


Believe me, it is signed well ahead of road works... People just don't give as sh*t and keep driving at 120 when 70 or 50 is allowed...

I don't know if anyone has seen telefacts on VTM? Have you seen how these roadworkers run back and forward over 3 or 4 lanes of 100km/h traffic? :runaway::eek2:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

joshsam said:


> Believe me, it is signed well ahead of road works... People just don't give as sh*t and keep driving at 120 when 70 or 50 is allowed...


It absolutely doesn't work to post a 50 or 70 km/h limit 2 km before the actual roadworks begin. Nobody takes it serious. The only thing that can prevent stuff like this is motorway traffic management, placed at 600 m intervals, not 2 km intervals.


----------



## Glodenox

joshsam: I've recorded that section, I'll put it online soon.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Spookvlieger

Glodenox said:


> joshsam: I've recorded that section, I'll put it online soon.
> 
> Greetings,
> Glodenox


Great  make sure to put the link in this tread!:cheers:


----------



## Glodenox

I certainly will  YouTube's upload system was down yesterday, but uploading seems to work fine now. Expect the link in about 20 minutes.

EDIT: here we go, the dangerous bit starts at 7:45






EDIT2: are you guys interested in subtitles? It's not that much work putting those, but I'm not sure whether it's really needed...

EDIT3: subtitles are added.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## PLH

I only want to know why the heck insn't the construction site lit in any way?


----------



## Glodenox

The construction sites are lit, just like the rest of the motorway... Otherwise you wouldn't see much of the work anyway.

But adding stronger and especially white lights instead of the usual yellow lights at that point could indeed help.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Things like that like running across SIX lanes in darkness with only a reflective coat would be completely unacceptable according to Dutch regulation. I think the contractor can expect a very serious fine for such behavior in NL. 

But the video also underlines a few important facts, for example the lack of budget for safe work zones, lack of police presence at lane closures, lack of equipment like impact-absorbers and not unimportant, the lack of money for a good renovation. The guy said there is no money for a complete renovation, so they just replace the top 5 cm of pavement every 4 -5 years.

You need equipment like this to work on major roads.









The road in the second half of this video was the Inner Ring Road of Brussels, which has 6 lanes per direction in some spots. You cannot let people making a run for their life to cross these lanes at night with no lighting.


----------



## Glodenox

I repeat myself: there was lighting. If there wasn't, you'd hardly see anything on the video.

Also, I'm pretty sure the regulations aren't that much different in Belgium... They're just not always respected the way they should be.

It's not that there's a lack of budget for safe work zones, it's that politicians get too many complaints about traffic jams and therefore prefer risking those people's lives. Just 200 metres from my house a national road has been shut down for about a month for reconstruction. The situation differs a lot from region to region (which I don't approve of though).

The lack of police presence is indeed unacceptable. It's sad that people don't want to adjust their speed without them, but especially during the closure, their presence is the least you can expect.

Impact-absorbers are there and do their job, along with the flashing arrow lights, but you can't simply stop a loaded truck driving at 90 km/h with that. They use the equipment shown above even on very local roads in order to have people notice that they have to change lanes from time to time.

The lack of money I don't really understand myself. I'd assume it's cheaper in the long run to reconstruct the foundation as well, but I guess politicians don't want to risk losing votes because of some extra traffic jams.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Well, in the video I only saw an arrow cart, not a full crash-absorber, which I'd expect on a wide road like that, hence my comment. 

Another problem of these quick fixes is that they are more expensive in the long term. If you do a full reconstruction, you can be good for another 15 - 20 years. Now you have to run repairs every 4 - 5 years. 

What I don't understand is where all the money goes. Sure, mobility is slightly less taxed in Belgium than the Netherlands, but it would still amount to a huge sum of money. Belgium should allocate more money for road renovations. Many roads are in dire need of them.


----------



## Wimpie

The bugdet has been tripled 2 years ago and doubled again this year in Flanders alone. Hence those massive roadworks occuring all over the region.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pont de Wandre, Liège:









A602/E25 Liège









Liège:









courtesy of eifelmomente.de


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ Nice pictures!
Pond warande looks better from a distance than up close,
Also the bridge of the E25 is so short you don't have the feeling you just crossed a bridge...
That's a very dangerous highway btw, the tight curves small, lanes,rapid descents and heavy traffic get me scared everytime...
No to mention that everyone exceeds speed limits even big trucks...
But the scenery makes it worth


----------



## Spookvlieger

The bridge is called Point du pays de Liège 










http://www.greisch.com/projet/2090.jpg


----------



## piotr71

Some pics from A17 and A19 motorways, as well as R8 and E17 around Kortrijk.


























































































































































We are turning right to merge with A19.


----------



## piotr71

We are on A19.






















































































































Junction after junction.









We approaching the end of the motorway.













































Well, we got N38 which goes 4 lane.


















Traffic lights' camera on the right.


















Turning to N8...









...which is mostly covered with concrete.









And the link to the gallery:
*http://picasaweb.google.com/109480072698896029207/BelgiumBelgieBelgiqueBelgienKortrijkIeperE17A17A19N38N8#*


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ Thanks a lot for the pictures!!!
Pitty they don't show...


----------



## Moravian

Thank you a lot for those pictures.

What could be highlighted there:
a)the interesting provisional (?) end of the uncompleted motorway A19 by Ieper (that gap between A19 and A18),
b)A19 - same issue as at A18 - there are lampposts just at the junctions,
c)every tunnel in such flat country like Flanders is a rarity...


----------



## Spookvlieger

Moravian said:


> Thank you a lot for those pictures.
> 
> What could be highlighted there:
> a)the interesting provisional (?) end of the uncompleted motorway A19 by Ieper (that gap between A19 and A18),
> b)A19 - same issue as at A18 - there are lampposts just at the junctions,
> c)*every tunnel in such flat country like Flanders is a rarity...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Flander is not a country (not yet at least :lol and tunnels do exist. Mostly under big rivers or inside cities.


----------



## Moravian

joshsam said:


> Moravian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you a lot for those pictures.
> 
> What could be highlighted there:
> a)the interesting provisional (?) end of the uncompleted motorway A19 by Ieper (that gap between A19 and A18),
> b)A19 - same issue as at A18 - there are lampposts just at the junctions,
> c)*every tunnel in such flat country like Flanders is a rarity...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Flander is not a country (not yet at least :lol and tunnels do exist. Mostly under big rivers or inside cities.
> 
> 
> 
> Right, and I tried to be very careful - flat Flanders (lowlands countryside) in comparison with Ardennen, Hohes Venn etc. (almost the switchbacks a la A4 there)....
Click to expand...


----------



## Suburbanist

*Day Trip Report - from Tilburg (Netherlands) to Luxembourg, travelling most through Belgian*

I took a day-trip from my home in Tilburg (Netherlands) to Luxembourg. Most of the drive was in Belgium, and I took some pictures.

My outward route was: Tilburg - Turnhout - Geelt, then E313 to Liège, then N63/N4/N89 all the way to Libramont Chevigny, and finally E411/E25 to Luxembourg. On my way back, it was night and I drove just from Luxembourg northern border to Maastricht and got no pictures because it was snowing and nearing the sunset time.

N63 near Nandrin. It is a very odd highway: 2x2, no shoulder, some roundabouts but many middle crossings. In some of them you have to take the left, than a turning lane and wait into the middle. In others, you take a right exit that resembles a U-turn, then you wait perpendicular to BOTH carriageways until it clears, and then you cross. Speeds vary from 80km/h to 100km/h.










To ease the busiest/most dangerous crossings, they narrow the carriageway to one lane, so drivers have more breathing space in the median to maneuver.









Bad pavement. Belgium needs to keep up its standards with its neighbors!









Here, near Terwagne, it is almost a highway :cheers:









Look down there an open sector without median: vehicles bear right, than cross like they were crossing an avenue. No traffic lights, speed 80km/h (but many drivers go faster as I noticed, with completely disregard for the local 80 kph limit)









Here, instead of crossing, you wait in the median. I saw it getting confused: a car coming from a side road stayed in the middle, then a truck which was in the expressway partially blocked the left lane waiting the median to clear completely so it could turn left!









Light snow could be seen near Bailonville



























The landscape near the roar was really beautiful. The Adernèes mountains are amazing! HEre near Champion









N4 doesn't have interchanges, but roundabout. Here, we are approaching the N4/N89 roundabout.









Tight curves and claustrophobic underpasses near Saint Hubert









Now, we are entering E411 in Libramont Chevigny. No traffic lights, you just wait in the median until it clears and go! I had a big Volvo Truck, with better view than mine (the crossing lane comes from a small hill) and the driver was honking at me. But the truck had to wait









Belgian signaling for motorway exist









Remnants of pre-Schengen area: disused border control post in Luxembourg-Belgian border line.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The speed limit is probably not 80, but 120 km/h. Tractors are allowed on such roads.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> The speed limit is probably not 80, but 120 km/h. Tractors are allowed on such roads.


Allowed or not, they are there:


----------



## Thermo

:redx:


----------



## PLH

^^ I can see everything.


*@ Suburbanist* I'd love to see more pics from regular roads, is it possible?


----------



## Thermo

Don't forget there are huge regional differences in Belgium. The GDP per capita in Flanders would be interesting to compare with the Netherlands...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There are always regional differences. What I don't get is that Brussels is the area with the highest GDP per capita, but also the area with the highest unemployment and many notorious neighborhoods. If you travel the high speed rail through Brussels it's appalling what you see there. 

I assume the money is only made in Brussels but spend in the edge communities (mainly Flanders). I've also read Brussels is the subdivision with the highest amount of commuters from another area in Europe.


----------



## Wimpie

ChrisZwolle said:


> Unemployment in Belgium is twice as high as the Netherlands though. Public debt is also much higher and may become problematic in a few years (99% of GDP).


The unemployment rate in Flanders dropped with 7% last year. When talking about economy you should always judge on the seperate economy's of the different states of Belgium.



Des said:


> If you look at GDP per capita The Netherlands still outperforms Belgium as well. Economic growth says only so much about the situation in a country.
> 
> 8 Netherlands	40,777
> 18 Belgium	36,274
> 
> The overall GDP in Belgium is also much lower than in The Netherlands, as is the total population.



The GDP per capita as well as the overall GDP are both higher in Flanders than in the Netherlands.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wimpie said:


> The unemployment rate in Flanders dropped with 7% last year.


7% of 7 percentage points? It's quite a difference; from 11 to 10.2% or from 11 to 4%...



> When talking about economy you should always judge on the seperate economy's of the different states of Belgium.


Because it would probably suit you because Wallonia is obviously performing worse than Flanders. Normally you compare countries, not regions. Every country has regional variations in economic performance. In Germany you have places like Brandenburg and in France you have places like Nord-Pas-de-Calais which are performing considerably worse than average.



> The GDP per capita as well as the overall GDP are both higher in Flanders than in the Netherlands.


Apples and oranges. You're comparing a region with an entire country. If you compare København to all of Germany there will be differences too. 

Besides that, GDP per capita doesn't say everything, for instance I don't think the average inhabitant of Luxembourg makes $ 85,000 per year.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ If you want to compare only Flanders, you would have to compare it with Western Netherlands only, excluding Limburg, Gelderland, Drenthe and Zeeland, for instance.


----------



## Trilesy

A more interesting comparison would be between Dutch- and French-speaking portions of Belgium. From what I know Dutch part has a higher GDP per capita than French. Anyone knows exact numbers?


----------



## Trilesy

In terms of "Belgian problem" the best solution probably would be to divide the country and have Flanders join the Netherlands and Wallonia join France. Seems like it will be true to history.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No way that would happen...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Trilesy said:


> In terms of "Belgian problem" the best solution probably would be to divide the country and have Flanders join the Netherlands and Wallonia join France. Seems like it will be true to history.


Read up a bit on the country. You're forgetting about Brussels, among other things.


----------



## Des

Trilesy said:


> In terms of "Belgian problem" the best solution probably would be to divide the country and have Flanders join the Netherlands and Wallonia join France. Seems like it will be true to history.


Problem is the French don't want Wallonia... I think it would be best to divide the country and just have two new countries so everybody can get on with its life...


----------



## Angelos

Come on now, are we comparing which country has the BIGGEST 






















GDP.... ??? :S


----------



## Trilesy

Penn's Woods said:


> Read up a bit on the country. You're forgetting about Brussels, among other things.


They can make Brussels a separate entity within the Netherlands (something like Vatican or, less radical, as a self-governing city; and still keep NATO and all other Euro structures in there). Is that what you're worried about?


----------



## Trilesy

Des said:


> Problem is the French don't want Wallonia... I think it would be best to divide the country and just have two new countries so everybody can get on with its life...


I agree with you. This is probably a more realistic solution considering that both Flanders and Wallonia will be too proud to join any other country. Although my suggestion is more true to history and would prevent from creation of 2 more tiny states in Europe. 

When do you think separation can became a reality?


----------



## Trilesy

ChrisZwolle said:


> No way that would happen...


Why?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Trilesy said:


> They can make Brussels a separate entity within the Netherlands (something like Vatican or, less radical, as a self-governing city; and still keep NATO and all other Euro structures in there). Is that what you're worried about?


I'm not "worried" about anything; it's just that your solution of French-speakers-go-this-way/Dutch-speakers-go-that-way disregards Brussels' very existence (since it's a city that's historically Dutch-speaking but currently predominantly French-speaking, officially bilingual and treated by the Flemish as their capital....) (or the existence of the German-speakers in the east, or the messiness that is the so-called periphery). Now, I do like Brussels, and Belgium, so I admit to being biased in favor of not breaking the country up; I also admit it's none of my business, as an American. But I've spent time there and I pay a lot of attention to the situation just out of interest.

Now, that said: who's this "they" who are going to make Brussels a separate entity (within the Netherlands? Why?) The real sticking point to me - besides the fact that all polls indicate that most people do not in fact want the country broken up - is that any separation would have to be negotiated. By the same politicians who are unable to negotiate the formation of a government. If they can't figure out that stuff now, how are they going to reach an agreement about the status of Brussels, among many other things? That's your real problem: "They" can't make Brussels a separate entity; in fact "they" can't do anything.

Obviously, the actual Belgians on the forum are free to disagree with either one of us, or tell us to butt out.  And anyone is free to tell us to get back on topic, since this is, after all, a roads forum.

Unrelated: I do like your avatar.


----------



## Trilesy

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm not "worried" about anything; it's just that your solution of French-speakers-go-this-way/Dutch-speakers-go-that-way disregards Brussels' very existence (since it's a city that's historically Dutch-speaking but currently predominantly French-speaking, officially bilingual and treated by the Flemish as their capital....) (or the existence of the German-speakers in the east, or the messiness that is the so-called periphery). Now, I do like Brussels, and Belgium, so I admit to being biased in favor of not breaking the country up; I also admit it's none of my business, as an American. But I've spent time there and I pay a lot of attention to the situation just out of interest.
> 
> Now, that said: who's this "they" who are going to make Brussels a separate entity (within the Netherlands? Why?) The real sticking point to me - besides the fact that all polls indicate that most people do not in fact want the country broken up - is that any separation would have to be negotiated. By the same politicians who are unable to negotiate the formation of a government. If they can't figure out that stuff now, how are they going to reach an agreement about the status of Brussels, among many other things? That's your real problem: "They" can't make Brussels a separate entity; in fact "they" can't do anything.
> 
> Obviously, the actual Belgians on the forum are free to disagree with either one of us, or tell us to butt out.  And anyone is free to tell us to get back on topic, since this is, after all, a roads forum.
> 
> Unrelated: I do like your avatar.


I'm in no way an expert in Belgian affairs and I know that in real life things tend to be "a little complicated". So, seriously I have little hope that Belgium will break up anytime soon (if ever). 

In terms of Brussels that's a good point. The city is historically Dutch, but mostly French-speaking now. On the other hand, why can't there be a French-speaking city (historically Dutch) within the Netherlands? 

Avatar: Vick is awesome, but sadly no Super Bowl for Eagles this year.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The language border was established in the 1960's, with Brussels as a predominantly French-speaking entity as an enclave within Flanders. As in every city, suburbanization also occured in Brussels, hence, many French-speaking population left for the suburbs, which are evidently in Flanders. This created the Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde issue which has been hampering efforts to create a stable government since 2007. There have been 4 governments between 2007 and 2010, and they are now attempting to create a 5th one, which is still unsuccessful even though elections were in June 2010.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ At the end of the day, the effect on highway network is clear: Belgium has a worse network than nearby countries (proportionally). It is underdimensioned and - more important - has a huge backlog of maintenance to be done. Not much construction of new lanes and alignments is seen in Belgium.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ I'm embaressed when I see our highways hno:, The potholes that formed last winter where not even repaired and now its even worse...its dangerous!


----------



## Wimpie

Trilesy said:


> A more interesting comparison would be between Dutch- and French-speaking portions of Belgium. From what I know Dutch part has a higher GDP per capita than French. Anyone knows exact numbers?


The Flemish state of Belgium has an unemployment rate of 8 percent (4 percent pre-crisis but dropping back to that number), the Wallonian state of Belgium has an employmentrate of about 19 percent (about the same as before the crisis). 

Average income of a Flemish citizen: 16.199 Euro
Average income of a Wallonian citizen: 14.377 Euro
Average income of a citizen of Brussels: 12.740 Euro

Provincee with the highest average income is the Flemish province of Brabant: 17.599 Euro
Province with the lowest average income is the Wallonian province of Luxemburg: 13.000 Euro

Richest city: the Flemish city of Sint-Martens-Latem: 22.786 Euro
Poorest city: the Brussels district of Sint-Joost-Ten-Node: 8.100 Euro



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ At the end of the day, the effect on highway network is clear: Belgium has a worse network than nearby countries (proportionally). It is underdimensioned and - more important - has a huge backlog of maintenance to be done. Not much construction of new lanes and alignments is seen in Belgium.


You're right about the lack of maintenance _in the past_. Maybe I should make clear that the government of Belgium does not maintain its roads but the different states of Belgium do so. As the Flemish state of Belgium is much richer, the budget for road-building and maintenance has been sixfolded. The plan is to get our freeways back on an excellent level of quality and a lot of roadwork has been done last year. The results are already showing in the Flemish province of Brabant nearly all freeways have been dealt with in the past 3 years and thus almost all of them are in Excellent condition. 2 new freeways are currently planned or already under construction (A11 & N74). Many cities are getting extended ringroads or new ringroads. And I didn't even explain about the Antwerpen 2020 plans yet...

This is one of the reconstructed freeways


----------



## Penn's Woods

joshsam said:


> I don't really care but I know one thing: Flanders is monoligual and Walloons should speak Dutch here just like we speak French in Wallonia. Flemisch people that live in Wallonia just addapt and speak French. But for some reason, Walloons think they can permit to impose their language upon us and fail to addapt. Becasue around Brussels lots af Walloons live in the BHV county, Walloon people can vote for a Walloon party on Flanders territory while it would never ever be that Flemisch people living in Wallonia could do the same with a flemisch party. This makes that Flemisch speaking communities around Brussels are getting more and more French speaking communities. Walloons want to make city limits bigger so they can have priveliges on Flemisch territory, something a Flemisch person living in Wallonia would never ever get. So that's really fair right?
> 
> Ofcourse we Flemisch people do not want enlarge city limits. That means we lose territory the French speaking wich already demand priveliges like being informed in French and French speaking services in monolingual Dutch speaking Flanders. If I would go and live in Wallonia there is no way I could ever ask for a letter in Dutch as a Flemish.
> 
> What we can't ever have, they can't ever get...
> 
> Sometimes companies from Wallonia call to cell things over phone. They call to someone living in Flanders but can't do their explanation in Dutch. I can perfectly understand them but I always answer: can you do that explaination in Dutch? When they say no, I say: No interest.


I understand all that, I really do - and I admit it's none of my business - but the problem is cities expand....


----------



## Wimpie

I think alot of the infrastructure in Wallonia was a pure waste of money. Most of the wide and fancy roads were under construction when their economy was already running its last miles.
In Flanders the construction of necessary infrastructure was blocked for years because the French oriented unitairy Belgian government didn't want to stimulate the Flemish economy.
When the Waffle-Iron Political Principle of Public Infrastructure (or WIPPOPI) was introduced, we were able to obtain the necessary infrastructure but that always involved an obligatory and equally expensive project in the Wallonian part of the country. (thus the "waffle iron principale").


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ DO you honestly think Wallonia has too many highways? They don't have many connections. Many cities lack ring roads. They have few international highway connections, just one with Luxembourg, one with Germany and one with France... They need more highways to stimulate their economy. They need some new tunnels in Liège and to upgrade some N-routes to highway standards.

Bear in mind that Wallonia is hilly, meaning highway construction is naturally higher.

Now, enumerate which highways you think were a waste of money in Wallonia.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Hence, the large number of GTI's (Grand Travaux Inutiles) in Belgium. What an incredible inefficient way to spend tax money. I would be extremely discontent with the way tax money was spent in those years if I were a tax payer in Belgium.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ DO you honestly think Wallonia has too many highways? They don't have many connections.


The motorway network is good. However, there is a huge amount of 2x2 expressways going to nowhere. It could have made sense if their economy was booming but it isn't. The upside is though that Walloon cities are nowhere near congested as Flemish cities are.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ DO you honestly think Wallonia has too many highways? They don't have many connections. Many cities lack ring roads. They have few international highway connections, just one with Luxembourg, one with Germany and one with France... They need more highways to stimulate their economy. They need some new tunnels in Liège and to upgrade some N-routes to highway standards.
> 
> Bear in mind that Wallonia is hilly, meaning highway construction is naturally higher.
> 
> Now, enumerate which highways you think were a waste of money in Wallonia.


And there are plenty of non-Walloons passing through. What role does the EU (or the Belgian federal government, for that matter) have in financing infrastructure? I know Wallonia's got about a third of Belgium's population but more than half the land area.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ DO you honestly think Wallonia has too many highways? They don't have many connections. Many cities lack ring roads. They have few international highway connections, just one with Luxembourg, one with Germany and one with France... They need more highways to stimulate their economy. They need some new tunnels in Liège and to upgrade some N-routes to highway standards.
> 
> Bear in mind that Wallonia is hilly, meaning highway construction is naturally higher.
> 
> Now, enumerate which highways you think were a waste of money in Wallonia.


I actually come up with two autoroutes (the A3/E40 and A27/E42) reaching the German border, and two (the A7/E19 and A8/E42) reaching the French border, and I feel like I'm forgetting something.


----------



## Wimpie

Penn's Woods said:


> And there are plenty of non-Walloons passing through. What role does the EU (or the Belgian federal government, for that matter) have in financing infrastructure? I know Wallonia's got about a third of Belgium's population but more than half the land area.


The Belgian government has no role whatsoever in financing public infrastructure. The states, and the states alone are responsible for that.
Wallonia did however pulled out an infrastructural loan at the EU a couple of months ago. But the amount they got (240 million euros) was barely enough to deal with the most urgent problems.
And they haven't discussed the terms of paying it back yet. Somewhere I have the feeling we - Flemish taxpayers - will have to deal with that.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ *Complete list international connections:*

*Wallonia*

-The A2 in Liège connecting Wallonia and The Netherlands...
-The A6/E411 reaching Luxemburg.
-The A3/E40 to Germany
-The A27/E42 to Germany
-The A7/E19 to France
-The A8/E42 to France

Not to mention all the 2x2 express ways that Wallonia has where you can drive 120km/h

*Now lets make that list for Flanders:*

-The A18/E40 to France
-The A???/E17 to France
-The A12/E??? to The Netherlands
-The A1/E19 to The Netherlands
-The A21/E34 to The Netherlands
-The A2/E314 to The Netherlands

How is Wallonia more bad connected to neighbours than Flanders?
They have the same amount of connections with twice as less population.


----------



## Thermo

Penn's Woods said:


> I understand all that, I really do - and I admit it's none of my business - but the problem is *cities expand*....


So the borders should expand with them? If the Mexican city of Ciudad Juarez (right next to the US border) "expands", does this mean they could claim US territory? What would be the US reaction you think? 

Cities can expand perfectly without changing the official borders, certainly within the EU. We have a perfect example alongside the French/Belgian border. The French city of Lille (right next to the border) is co-operating perfectly with neighbouring Flemish and Walloon regions without annexing them.


----------



## Ingenioren

Do you think Belgian motorways lack international connections? I would rather think new motorways to avoid the congested city ringroads to be more pressing.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Thermo said:


> So the borders should expand with them? If the Mexican city of Ciudad Juarez (right next to the US border) "expands", does this mean they could claim US territory? What would be the US reaction you think?
> 
> Cities can expand perfectly without changing the official borders, certainly within the EU. We have a perfect example alongside the French/Belgian border. The French city of Lille (right next to the border) is co-operating perfectly with neighbouring Flemish and Walloon regions without annexing them.


I'm really trying to avoid taking sides in this, but the way places like Brussels, Montreal and Barcelona, where different languages are competing, has always been interesting to me, so I know enough about them to compare....

What I mean by "cities expand" is that their urban areas grow, whether you want them to or not. The 1962/1963 language law makes perfect sense when it's a matter of individual Flemings settling in Mouscron (or individual Walloons in Spiere-Helkijn) and adapting to the majority language. It's another matter entirely when you draw a language border through what were already the outer suburbs of a major, mostly-French-speaking city. _It wasn't going to work_. It was inevitable that people from Brussels were going to settle in these areas (heck, they were already there), not one by one but in such numbers that offically-Flemish municipalities like Kraainem were going to end up 75-percent French-speaking. I really can see both sides' point of view, but it was asking for conflict. These areas are Flemish, but they're also suburbs of Brussels. If Flemish politicians hadn't spent the last 50 years crying "Walen buiten!" and issuing Peeters circulars and "wonen in eigen streek" decrees, treating these people like invaders rather than fellow Belgians, maybe the francophones wouldn't be asking to be annexed to Brussels. But Flemish politicians _have_ spent 50 years alienating this population (Did you think no one outside Belgium was paying attention?), so it's understandable that it'd (in general) prefer to be part of Brussels. What is your solution to the "periphery"? Kick all the francophones out?

Look at Quebec: Quebec has been able to protect French without closing English-language universities (McGill and Concordia, both in the heart of Montreal), shutting out English-language media, or prohibiting English-speaking parents from educating their children in English. Montreal's a wonderful, cosmopolitan-feeling place; one of my favorite places in the world.

Also, Ciudad Juárez and El Paso are in different countries. Brussels and Vilvoorde aren't, yet. And the United States is far, far more accommodating of Spanish than Flanders is of French. A place in the U.S. that's 75 percent Spanish-speaking (or 7.5 percent, for that matter) will have Spanish-language government services by law. Any large US city has Spanish-language TV stations (Philadelphia has three.) So annexation isn't really the issue; it's treatment of minorities. When minorities are treated like unwelcome foreigners, that's when they start to ask to be annexed to a place that'll be a home to them.

I've said more than once that this is none of my business and I didn't want to take sides. But you asked for my opinion....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Interesting never completed freeway link between Charleroi and Maubeuge, currently numbered N54.

route:









Western stub









Hugely oversized border crossing









Eastern stub


----------



## Thermo

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm really trying to avoid taking sides in this, but the way places like Brussels, Montreal and Barcelona, where different languages are competing, has always been interesting to me, so I know enough about them to compare....
> 
> What I mean by "cities expand" is that their urban areas grow, whether you want them to or not. The 1962/1963 language law makes perfect sense when it's a matter of individual Flemings settling in Mouscron (or individual Walloons in Spiere-Helkijn) and adapting to the majority language. It's another matter entirely when you draw a language border through what were already the outer suburbs of a major, mostly-French-speaking city. _It wasn't going to work_. It was inevitable that people from Brussels were going to settle in these areas (heck, they were already there), not one by one but in such numbers that offically-Flemish municipalities like Kraainem were going to end up 75-percent French-speaking. I really can see both sides' point of view, but it was asking for conflict. These areas are Flemish, but they're also suburbs of Brussels. If Flemish politicians hadn't spent the last 50 years crying "Walen buiten!" and issuing Peeters circulars and "wonen in eigen streek" decrees, treating these people like invaders rather than fellow Belgians, maybe the francophones wouldn't be asking to be annexed to Brussels. But Flemish politicians _have_ spent 50 years alienating this population (Did you think no one outside Belgium was paying attention?), so it's understandable that it'd (in general) prefer to be part of Brussels. What is your solution to the "periphery"? Kick all the francophones out?
> 
> Look at Quebec: Quebec has been able to protect French without closing English-language universities (McGill and Concordia, both in the heart of Montreal), shutting out English-language media, or prohibiting English-speaking parents from educating their children in English. Montreal's a wonderful, cosmopolitan-feeling place; one of my favorite places in the world.
> 
> Also, Ciudad Juárez and El Paso are in different countries. Brussels and Vilvoorde aren't, yet. And the United States is far, far more accommodating of Spanish than Flanders is of French.
> 
> A place in the U.S. that's 75 percent Spanish-speaking (or 7.5 percent, for that matter) will have Spanish-language government services by law. Any large US city has Spanish-language TV stations (Philadelphia has three.) So annexation isn't really the issue; it's treatment of minorities. When minorities are treated like unwelcome foreigners, that's when they start to ask to be annexed to a place that'll be a home to them.
> 
> I've said more than once that this is none of my business and I didn't want to take sides. But you asked for my opinion....


It's clear you are not neutral and don't understand the Flemish position. It's always the same: the foreign media only reads the Francophone press, and so the 'outside world' has more sympathy for the Francophone position (the "poor victims" of those "evil Flemish").

You say the US is more accommodating of Spanish than Flanders is of French. Have you ever compared the size of Flanders and the US? :nuts: We are a small state with 6 million inhabitants. In the past (you know Belgian history?) we had to fight for our rights. Dutch was considered to be a completely useless and inferior language by the Belgian state. The Dutch language was always in the weak position. Take Brussels for example. It was historically a Dutch-speaking city. Now it's almost completely Francophone. If I go to a restaurant in Brussels, most of the time I cannot order in Dutch and the menus are French only. "Bilingual" often meens French-speaking. That's why we are so afraid in the aera around Brussels. The French-speakers rarely showed some basic respect for our language and culture, even on our own territory. 

Francophones in Flanders can even vote for anti-Flemish parties like FDF (and they do!), while the (large) Flemish community in Wallonia (area around Wavre, Jodoigne) cannot vote for Flemish parties. 

And if we react to this, we are the 'bad guys'. It's really the world upside down.


----------



## g.spinoza

Thermo said:


> It's clear you are not neutral and don't understand the Flemish position. It's always the same: the foreign media only reads the Francophone press, and so the 'outside world' has more sympathy for the Francophone position (the "poor victims" of those "evil Flemish").


It's not like that, please don't play the victim. In most cases the Belgian situation is even not so interesting to reach foreign media, let alone to blame the "evil Flemish"...


----------



## Thermo

g.spinoza said:


> It's not like that, please don't play the victim. In most cases the Belgian situation is even not so interesting to reach foreign media, let alone to blame the "evil Flemish"...


I have seen enough examples of articles in foreign media, that were almost a perfect translation of articles in the Francophone press.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Thermo said:


> It's clear you are not neutral and don't understand the Flemish position. It's always the same: the foreign media only reads the Francophone press, and so the 'outside world' has more sympathy for the Francophone position (the "poor victims" of those "evil Flemish").
> 
> You say the US is more accommodating of Spanish than Flanders is of French. Have you ever compared the size of Flanders and the US? :nuts: We are a small state with 6 million inhabitants. In the past (you know Belgian history?) we had to fight for our rights. Dutch was considered to be a completely useless and inferior language by the Belgian state. The Dutch language was always in the weak position. Take Brussels for example. It was historically a Dutch-speaking city. Now it's almost completely Francophone. If I go to a restaurant in Brussels, most of the time I cannot order in Dutch and the menus are French only. "Bilingual" often meens French-speaking. That's why we are so afraid in the aera around Brussels. The French-speakers rarely showed some basic respect for our language and culture, even on our own territory.
> 
> Francophones in Flanders can even vote for anti-Flemish parties like FDF (and they do!), while the (large) Flemish community in Wallonia (area around Wavre, Jodoigne) cannot vote for Flemish parties.
> 
> And if we react to this, we are the 'bad guys'. It's really the world upside down.



Ik lees Le Soir, La Libre EN DE STANDAARD. Century-old grievances against the francophone elite of the time do not justify picking on francophone individuals today who are really just trying to find a nice place to live. And why not pick on the Flemings who sell them their houses?


----------



## Thermo

Penn's Woods said:


> Ik lees Le Soir, La Libre EN DE STANDAARD. Century-old grievances against the francophone elite of the time do not justify picking on francophone individuals today who are really just trying to find a nice place to live. And why not pick on the Flemings who sell them their houses?


The only (only!) thing we ask is that people who want to live in Flanders accept that Dutch is the official language, just as we accept that French is the official language in Wallonia. Is this too much to ask? Isn't this just fair?

They can speak whatever language they want at home, on the streets, in the restaurants, they can have French-speaking schools, libraries, (talking about good integration, ahum...)etc... But the language of the local authorities is Dutch. Only Dutch. It's just a matter of protecting our language against the big French language.


----------



## Wimpie

^^
I agree completly!

Belgium in the golden sixties (yes, it's about roads)


----------



## GCarty

Talking of languages, why is this thread labelled "Autoroutes de Belgique" and not "Belgische Autosnelwegen" as well?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Thermo said:


> The only (only!) thing we ask is that people who want to live in Flanders accept that Dutch is the official language, just as we accept that French is the official language in Wallonia. Is this too much to ask? Isn't this just fair?
> 
> They can speak whatever language they want at home, on the streets, in the restaurants, they can have French-speaking schools, libraries, (talking about good integration, ahum...)etc... But the language of the local authorities is Dutch. Only Dutch. It's just a matter of protecting our language against the big French language.


Well, I'm not there. I could cite examples from the francophone press of attempts to prevent people from speaking French in markets, on playgrounds, in shops.... And anyone who's interested in Belgium and roads has seen plenty of vandalized signs (on both sides). Not to mention "wonen in eigen streek." And "Dilbeek, waar Vlamingen thuis zijn." (And "Walen buiten," but that's a long time ago). But no doubt all that's anecdotal. But I really didn't mean to get into this. I do hope your country works everything out in a way that's respectful to everyone. And that's all I'm going to say.


----------



## Penn's Woods

GCarty said:


> Talking of languages, why is this thread labelled "Autoroutes de Belgique" and not "Belgische Autosnelwegen" as well?


I've wondered that myself.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Done.

I'm surprised it took so long before anybody noticed it... the thread had this name for 2 - 3 years.


----------



## Thermo

Penn's Woods said:


> Well, I'm not there. I could cite examples from the francophone press of attempts to prevent people from speaking French in markets, on playgrounds, in shops.... And anyone who's interested in Belgium and roads has seen plenty of vandalized signs (on both sides). Not to mention "wonen in eigen streek." And "Dilbeek, waar Vlamingen thuis zijn." (And "Walen buiten," but that's a long time ago). But no doubt all that's anecdotal. But I really didn't mean to get into this. I do hope your country works everything out in a way that's respectful to everyone. And that's all I'm going to say.


You have a very one-sided view on things here. This is how the (only!) Flemish school in Wallonia was "welcomed" in Comines:






Btw, what's your connection with (obviously Francophone) Belgium, if I may ask?


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## Karnoit

^^

My god you're very embarrassing yourself Thermo.
You obviously just found out that karma is a bitch, now you still have to learn that the only person you have to blame for what's people are thinking about you is just yourself. 

And I already told you in an other thread this *IS NOT* the only Flemish school in Wallonia.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ Penn's woods really doesn't deserve this...
Although he isn't right about the Flemish only being hostile towards WAlloons, Walloons also are hostile towards Flemish people. The video proves that. But Penn's woods really seemed like a nice guy trying to understand both sides of the story.

Anyway: @ Penn's Woods: Neither the Walloon,neither the Flemisch are the 'bad ones' in this story. Although it is true that most people not being from belgium chose the Walloons side. But I think that has more to do with the Walloons being portrayed as suppressed by Flemisch people...

But anyway, this is a tread about Belgian Highways...


----------



## Penn's Woods

joshsam said:


> ^^ Penn's woods really doesn't deserve this...
> Although he isn't right about the Flemish only being hostile towards WAlloons, Walloons also are hostile towards Flemish people. The video proves that. But Penn's woods really seemed like a nice guy trying to understand both sides of the story.
> 
> Anyway: @ Penn's Woods: Neither the Walloon,neither the Flemisch are the 'bad ones' in this story. Although it is true that most people not being from belgium chose the Walloons side. But I think that has more to do with the Walloons being portrayed as suppressed by Flemisch people...
> 
> But anyway, this is a tread about Belgian Highways...


("he isn't right about the Flemish only being hostile towards WAlloons" He (I) didn't say that, actually. Maar bedankt.)


----------



## Spookvlieger

Karnoit said:


> ^^
> 
> My god you're very embarrassing yourself Thermo.
> You obviously just found out that karma is a bitch, now you still have to learn that the only person you have to blame for what's people are thinking about you is just yourself.
> 
> And I already told you in an other thread this *IS NOT* the only Flemish school in Wallonia.


Can you explain that also to me? Because I really can't find another one...


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## Spookvlieger

BTw: the vid also features something else: The incompleted highway. Much more interesting then the politics


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## GCarty

ChrisZwolle said:


> I'm surprised it took so long before anybody noticed it... the thread had this name for 2 - 3 years.


I only joined the forum recently, after reading this blog post. When Indigo Jo mentioned a "road forum" I first thought he was referring to SABRE, where I've long had an account.


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## Karnoit

joshsam said:


> Can you explain that also to me? Because I really can't find another one...


In Mouscron. Moreover, there are "immersion" school a bit everywhere in Wallonia. In those schools courses are in French and Dutch (sometimes up to 75nl/25fr).


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## Spookvlieger

^^Why would they do that though? I can't remember people going to a school in Wallonia and I leave near the linguistic border...


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## Karnoit

^^

You missed something. 
Of course there is no reason for a dutch-speaking pupil from Flanders to go to school in Wallonia. My observation was about the supply of dutch-speaking schools for flemish people living in Wallonia. The school in Comines is not the only one as Thermo said.


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## Josh

^^Yes it is. The school in Mouscron has been transformed into an immersion school. It has merged with other Frenchspeaking schools in Mouscron.

Talking about immersion schools...I wish the concept would also be introduced in Flanders.


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## Filou

Josh said:


> ^^Yeah for instance, the thread title would lead to a major conflict since Dutch and German are left out. :lol:





ChrisZwolle said:


> Done.
> 
> I'm surprised it took so long before anybody noticed it... the thread had this name for 2 - 3 years.


Josh noticed it right at the first page! :lol:

And by the way, I think it's a bad idea to use this threat for political discussions. I thought it was about roads!


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## Wimpie

E314; today










E314; 5 years ago


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## Spookvlieger

^^ Looks way better


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## g.spinoza

I don't see many differences... apart from the weather and the pavement.


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## metasmurf

g.spinoza said:


> I don't see many differences... apart from the weather and the pavement.


What about the median and the roadside?


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## Spookvlieger

^^ At least it got new pavement..The old was concrete that made a lot of noice and was bumpy...


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## Wimpie

@ Teach

I am perfectly aware of what I've said, I like Brussels as a city, alot, but I don't see why I as a Flemish person has to refer to streets or places in the city in French while it is the only officially bilingual state in the country.



Suburbanist said:


> Those already stubbornly drawn in these language wars (useless nowadays when, I suppose, Belgians educated in Belgium have knowledge of both languages) already know how cities are known. Those unfamiliar with 19th century grievances might find themselves lost in the highways trying to figure out Liuk = Liège and Anvers = Antwerpen.



Again, it has nothing to do with 19th century grievances. If you would have read my comment properly, you would have seen that its all about what happened_ after world war 2_. Only than after a great deal of struggling Dutch became a propper official language of Belgium. It is after all the majority language of the country but was treated as a minority one. Up to today a minority seems to be in the assumption that they can dictate the ways of a majority. And than I leave out what happened for example during WW I...

About the signs, the system is perfectly logical, when reffering to national places the name of that city is always displayed in the language of the state where the sign is located and thus the name most commonly amongst the people living there. When reffering to international places both the domestic name and the name of the place known in the language of the other country are displayed. When traveling into Belgium you should be aware, as a guest, that places can have differing names.

Back to roads

I made this album last spring, its the E314 which was built in 1986

Link
http://s400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/Wimpie25/E314/

A few key pictures


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## Teach

> I don't see why I as a Flemish person has to refer to streets or places in the city in French while it is the only officially bilingual state in the country.


Um, your entire rant here has been based on the idea they have to be referred to in BOTH languages BECAUSE Brussels is bilingual. Sounds like you're trying to wiggle your ass out of being caught not following your own rule by making up this new 'exception' where the rule now apparently only applies to foreigners...


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## Wimpie

^^
I'm not making up my own rules, nor I'm trying to work myself out of it. All I do is asking people to respect the Belgian language laws, the same laws I've been following here all along because as I Flemish person I DO NOT have to reffer to place in Brussels in French...
I suggest you dig yourself into the legal part before commenting on people.
And please, stick to roads...

My video of the E314, I don't think I've posted it yet.


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## Teach

> All I do is asking people to respect the Belgian language laws


First of all, Belgian language laws don't count in this forum. Second, if you demand that people use both the Dutch and French names of a bilingual city when in international company (like, in this, the international part of this forum), then you should do the same. 



> as I Flemish person I DO NOT have to reffer to place in Brussels in French...


...then other people don't have to refer to them in Dutch either. And you're the last person who should be lecturing them that they should.


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## Baiazid

Wimpie.... get real. Nobody outside Belgium gives a ...... (you fill in the blanks) about whether is it Brussels or Bruxelles or Brusel, or even Bruxel like we call it in Romanian. Really, do you care if the big Romanian city of Cluj Napoca is referred as Kolojvar (Hungarian) or Clausenburg (German)?

Come on, this are realy 19th century issues. We're in the 21st. Sooner or later we'll all be "the great European nation". All the languages in Europe will eventually merge into a single one. And so will the names. The local national names of the cities will then be reffered as "the old local name".

It's really stupid to get offended by the way people call a city, especially since they use a wide spread version of the name. And, by the way, like it or not, Bruxel (you don't mind me calling it in Romanian) is less and less the Belgian Capital and more and more the European Capital. Therefore, don't be surprised you'll see it called in ways you don't expect.

Bucuresti (Bucharest, Bucarest etc.) is called in so many ways, yet still I have my food on the table every evening. :cheers:


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## g.spinoza

Just to say that all of this is extremely OT, other than childish and boring.


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## Penn's Woods

I'm afraid to ask where Wimpie's last set of pictures are from (because the "Waver-Namen-Heverlee" sign in the second one suggests to me that it's a Flemish city sufficiently well known in history that its French name is well established enough in English that it can be considered the English name as well. Sort of like Bruges.)hno:


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## Wimpie

Namen & Waver are both cities in Wallonia and are sometimes known under their newer French names (Wavre & Namur).



Baiazid said:


> Come on, this are realy 19th century issues. We're in the 21st. Sooner or later we'll all be "the great European nation". All the languages in Europe will eventually merge into a single one. And so will the names. The local national names of the cities will then be reffered as "the old local name".


For the last time, these are not 19th century issues. People died in the 80's while defending Dutch in the Voeren region...
And like I said, a country with 2 official languages (plus german) only had its constitution translated in the majority language in 1967? And what about the numerous Flemish soldiers that died during the wars under control of Wallonian superiors? That is very 19th century...
I'm glad that Flanders became a semi-autonomous state within Belgium but I wouldn't mind the Walloons to stop fiddeling with our ways...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wimpie said:


> Namen & Waver are both cities in Wallonia and are sometimes known under their newer French names (Wavre & Namur).
> 
> 
> 
> For the last time, these are not 19th century issues. People died in the 80's while defending Dutch in the Voeren region...
> And like I said, a country with 2 official languages (plus german) only had its constitution translated in the majority language in 1967? And what about the numerous Flemish soldiers that died during the wars under control of Wallonian superiors? That is very 19th century...
> I'm glad that Flanders became a semi-autonomous state within Belgium but I wouldn't mind the Walloons to stop fiddeling with our ways...


I am aware that Namen and Waver are Dutch for Namur and Wavre. (Although how are the French names "newer"?) The Namen/Waver/Heverlee signs (and the location of the E314) suggested to me that the picture might have been taken in...in a city that I don't dare identify to you by the name that it's mostly known by in English, because I'll be accused of being racist or something.

I don't see *any* Walloon on this forum fiddling with your ways (whatever that means), just foreigners genuinely interested in your country who suddenly find themselves being attacked for breaking rules that they have no reason to know exist. Seriously, if you were actually trying to make us take the Francophone side in the issue, you should continue behaving exactly the way you are.

Nu hoe zegt men in het Nederlands, "get a fucking grip"?


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## lambersart2005

Penn's Woods said:


> I don't see *any* Walloon on this forum fiddling with your ways (whatever that means), just foreigners genuinely interested in your country who suddenly find themselves being attacked for breaking rules that they have no reason to know exist. Seriously, if you were actually trying to make us take the Francophone side in the issue, you should continue behaving exactly the way you are.
> 
> Nu hoe zegt men in het Nederlands, "get a fucking grip"?


You`re so right. I am so fed up with all this language fighting. Be proud of your flemish nationality but please let others express their opinions, too. If a foreigner names a city not in the `officially`correct way, so what. This is above all, a highway-forum, not a battlefield against the french speaking world.... I also did not notice any Wallon in here arguing about the language issue you opened up, Wimpie....


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## Glodenox

Sigh. I would've hoped this discussion would've died down on the last page already.

First of all: sure, it was weird that Bruxelles was used in that English text, whereas it would've been more logical to use the English term Brussels. It just makes more sense to put it in the same version as the language you're writing. It makes less sense to write either Bruxelles or Brussel. Important note: do I care? Not the tiniest bit.

As for directions on signs to cities in another linguistic region: there's more logic to write those in the language of that city itself, but the current situation isn't any different than in most other countries anyway. I wouldn't be against changing that around, but I don't really let any sleep over that.

As for my personal experience with other languages: there's only one place where I refuse to speak or listen to another foreign language unless it's something that I intended to happen: in my own house. Apart from that: I always help people wherever I am, but if I see that people are clearly not even attempting the tiniest bit to use the language of the region, I refuse to help them in their language and reply in the region's language. Note that I do this in both Flanders and Wallonia, so a Fleming I don't know who tries to ask me stuff in Dutch in Wallonia will get a reply in French from me if he didn't first had a (bad) attempt at French.

People who don't live in a situation like this one may think this is completely bonkers, and I don't blame you. It's just that if you are exposed to these situations pretty much every day, that you start making certain rules and putting up boundaries to it. It's all very exhausting and it's just easier for me to deal with it that way.

I'm a proud Fleming, but equally proud Belgian, European and international person.

Sadly enough, there aren't that many people from Wallonia on this forum so we could get a point of view from them. Or I guess they're just afraid to be bashed by some of my (astray) fellow Flemings for some stupid detail or thing they can't understand. That's what's called a collision of cultures, I guess.

EDIT: oh, and can we now start talking about highways again?

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## Thermo

I could't care less if someone says 'Anvers' in stead of 'Antwerp' or 'Antwerpen'. Jeez, this is getting out of hand  Back to the ROADS.


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## Wover

One last comment though: I just want to make it clear for foreigners that not all Flemish people think like Wimpie. I value our language laws as well, but I see that in practice it doesn't always work out, so I don't mind errors made against them, especially by foreigners.

But in Wimpie's defence, I must agree with him that it's not only "19th century" stuff, but that all of the events concerning languages, laws and the form of our country are very fresh in our minds, especially now that the reason for the very existence of it are being questioned.

I hope Wimpie will not take to much offence in what I wrote here, but if he does, please send me a pm. Discussions like this should not be held in this topic.


----------



## Wimpie

^^
I'm not offended at all, it's just that I can really get into the the whole subject of our language laws, up to the point that it almost makes me hyperventilate. I just want to make clear to foreigners or people who know little about it, that it is more than a minor historical issue and that alot of people really take it serious.



Penn's Woods said:


> I am aware that Namen and Waver are Dutch for Namur and Wavre. (Although how are the French names "newer"?) The Namen/Waver/Heverlee signs (and the location of the E314) suggested to me that the picture might have been taken in...in a city that I don't dare identify to you by the name that it's mostly known by in English, because I'll be accused of being racist or something.


That city is called Leuven.
The French versions of these city names are newer because the Dutch language border kept moving north in the past 400 years until it was legally defined in the sixties to put a hold to the Frenchification. That is why most of the Wallonian cities or towns have an (historical) Dutch name which is much older than the frenchified modern day version of it.
But it is not only Wallonia but also the largest part of the north half of France used to be part of the Dutch language region (the 17 provinces of the united Netherlands). That is also why the northern half of France looks alot like Belgium when it comes to the more historical city centers. For example Saint Quintèns is known as Sint Kwintens in Belgium. But also Lille is always signed as Rijssel (with the French version between brackets). The process of frenchification was sped up under the influence of Napoleon and became dramatic after the independence of Belgium of the Netherlands.
With the language border being situated in Belgium, our country is actually a collision between 2 cultures.

For example this intersection is both in France & Belgium, you can check on the map that the border is actually in the model of the road behind you for a few km's

http://maps.google.be/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...=S38PMk3RmCGvc8IyXHZH6g&cbp=12,47.85,,0,11.61


----------



## Josh

^^Uhm, I can tell you that's completely wrong. The linguistic border in Belgium has barely moved over the past centuries, except maybe for a few small villages along the border (and Brussels). Everything south of it has always been French speaking and everything north of it has always been Dutch speaking. So no, the Dutch names names For Wavre or Namur are not older than the French names and these cities have never been Dutch speaking.
In Northern France, only the present-day arrondissement of Dunkirk was historically Dutch speaking. Lille (Rijsel in Dutch and not Rijssel) or Saint-Quentin have never been Dutch speaking. 
Looks to me like you've got your information from some untrustworthy source.

Anyway, back to the highways now!


----------



## Spookvlieger




----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ Belgian politics over the last 5 years in one picture?


----------



## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Belgian politics over the last 5 years in one picture?


No, just 4. Large part of this year is better represented by this one:


----------



## Baiazid

So, how about Belgian motorways?


----------



## aswnl

Baiazid said:


> So, how about Belgian motorways?


I think they're still breeding on a plan to dismantle all corroded light-poles before they all will fall down on the motorways...


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## brisavoine

Wimpie said:


> Namen & Waver are both cities in Wallonia and are sometimes known under their newer French names (Wavre & Namur).


:laugh:

Sometimes SSC gives me a good laugh I must say.

Anyway, bravo, you've done a great job at showing the international forumers what's going on in Flanders at the moment. Congrats! kay:


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## brisavoine

Glodenox said:


> As for directions on signs to cities in another linguistic region: there's more logic to write those in the language of that city itself, *but the current situation isn't any different than in most other countries anyway*.


In Europe these days the names of foreign cities on road signs are written both in the national language of the country where the sign is posted as well as in the native language of the city appearing on the sign.

For example here in Lille, Ghent is clearly marked both in French (Gand) and in Dutch (Gent):









Here near Dunkirk (or should I say Dunkerque? or Duinkerke? or Duinkerken?) the city of Furnes is marked both in French (Furnes) and in Dutch (Veurne):









Frankly the extremist situation in Belgium where regional authorities refuse to write the names of cities from the other side of the linguistic border in their native forms is becoming more and more ridiculous as the years go by.


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## Penn's Woods

brisavoine said:


> ....Frankly the extremist situation in Belgium where regional authorities refuse to write the names of cities from the other side of the linguistic border in their native forms is becoming more and more ridiculous as the years go by.


(At the risk of opening this up again, you can't blame regional authorities: it's national law.)


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## aswnl

brisavoine said:


> In Europe these days the names of foreign cities on road signs are written both in the national language of the country where the sign is posted as well as in the native language of the city appearing on the sign.


No, it is obliged to use the local (native) name primarely (endonym). Logical, because if you don't know the local name you'll never find your destination, and you could end up with discontinued signage. The name in the language of where you are may be added between brackets (exonym). So France does it the wrong way, it should be Gent (Gand). 

However the Belgian language laws don't take into account the target of roadsignage: people who are not known to the local situation. This group can't cope with signage made for Belgians-only, in which you have to know the exonym and endonym of all places in the country to find your way... :nuts:


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## brisavoine

^^Hm, I'm not sure I understand what you mean...

All I know is that in supposedly imperialist France, Ghent is posted as "Gent", whereas in Flanders Mons is not posted as "Mons" (as if the rest of Europe was supposed to know it's called "Bergen" in Dutch), and in Wallonia Ghent is not posted as "Gent". If that's not ridiculous, in a country that hosts the EU institutions!


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## aswnl

I agree that the Belgian way of roadsigning is totally ridiculous.
By the way: In the Netherlands several German cities already have changed names on the roadsigns to their local names. Keulen became Köln, Aken became Aachen, etc. In the nearby future the Wallon city of Luik (B) will be changed into Liège as well on the Dutch A2.


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## Penn's Woods

aswnl said:


> I agree that the Belgian way of roadsigning is totally ridiculous.
> By the way: In the Netherlands several German cities already have changed names on the roadsigns to their local names. Keulen became Köln, Aken became Aachen, etc. In the nearby future the Wallon city of Luik (B) will be changed into Liège as well on the Dutch A2.


Okay, a general question: is the use of...the names that are used in the destination country (German for places in Germany for example)*...an EU requirement, or directive, or...? My understanding is that Belgian signage treated places outside Belgium the same way they did places in Belgium until a European rule required otherwise. In other words, Lille would have been identified in Dutch-speaking areas as "Rijsel" and only "Rijsel"; now it's "Rijsel _(Lille)_" Which, I assume, is why even some French-made road maps (Michelin, IGN....) of northern France have Lille labeled in both languages - so people trying to find it from northern Belgium know the Dutch name they were going to see for it.

And Brisavoine, if I'm not mistaken, you can occasionally see a "Sarrebruck" or "Gênes" in France without translation. But I'll assume these are all being fixed. ;-)


*because I can't remember which is an "endonym" and which is an "exonym."


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## brisavoine

Well the Flemings and the Walloons should take example on the Swiss. No silly linguistic pettiness in Switzerland.

Here we're in German-speaking Switzerland (municipality of Ried bei Kerzers), just a few miles before crossing the linguistic border. As you can see, the names of the cities are in French. In the same situation in Flanders, just a few miles from the linguistic border, the names would be in Dutch only.









Here we're in French-speaking Switzerland (municipality of Avenches), just a few miles before crossing the linguistic border. As you can see, the names of the cities are in German. In the same situation in Wallonia, just a few miles from the linguistic border, the names would be in French only.









Even more interesting, on his arrival in French-speaking Switzerland, a German-speaking motorists is greeted with signs telling him things in German, despite the fact that he's now in French-speaking territory. This would be unthinkable in either Flanders or Wallonia.


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## piotr71

brisavoine said:


> Here near Dunkirk (or should I say Dunkerque? or Duinkerke? or Duinkerken?) the city of Furnes is marked both in French (Furnes) and in Dutch (Veurne):
> http://i56.tinypic.com/2e64xsx.jpg
> 
> .


However, in some cases only half of foreign destinations are marked in such way:


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## Baiazid

Obviously, we're not talking at all about "Belgian motorways", yet the debate is interesting. So, why not...

Language is still considered by many people as having to do with the national identity. Maybe it did back to the end of 20th century. But today, in the age of globalization language it's only about communication. Perhaps it takes longer to understand that and one needs to travel enough and speak more the 2 languages (native and English) to get it. I don't identify myself by the language I'm speaking. Indentity lies in culture, thoughts, actions etc. But not the language. Of course, it would feel weird to talk French or German to my kids back at home. Yet we do talk English or French among ourselves once the conversation involves another person who doesn't speak Romanian.

Now, the names, I would say that, for the sake of standardisation, which in turn rewards us with the ease of use, at least in Europe we should all reffer the cities by their local name. Cause it's far more likely that the outsiders will adapt to the change, rather then the locals. It might be strange at the begining, but everybody will benefit in the end. Cause once you travel in a forign country, the last thing you care behind the wheel are the local sensitibilities. You only care about getting fast and safe to your destination. So any confussion is to be avoided. That is, of course, assuming that there is "life after GPS" and you get to the "unlikely event" of driving based on your own geography knowledge and on the road signs.


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## Wimpie

Josh said:


> ^^Uhm, I can tell you that's completely wrong. The linguistic border in Belgium has barely moved over the past centuries, except maybe for a few small villages along the border (and Brussels). Everything south of it has always been French speaking and everything north of it has always been Dutch speaking. So no, the Dutch names names For Wavre or Namur are not older than the French names and these cities have never been Dutch speaking.
> In Northern France, only the present-day arrondissement of Dunkirk was historically Dutch speaking. Lille (Rijsel in Dutch and not Rijssel) or Saint-Quentin have never been Dutch speaking.
> Looks to me like you've got your information from some untrustworthy source.
> 
> Anyway, back to the highways now!


I assume your information is faulty because my explantion comes right out of my old Dutch highschool textbook...
The Dutch language region used to be alot bigger, it also compromised the region of Artesië (which is now known as Artois) in France. Under the emperialistic period French spread across Europe (even into the higher classes of the United Kingdom which frenchified the English language considerably).



Penn's Woods said:


> (At the risk of opening this up again, you can't blame regional authorities: it's national law.)


Correct! You are well informed 



brisavoine said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Sometimes SSC gives me a good laugh I must say.
> 
> Anyway, bravo, you've done a great job at showing the international forumers what's going on in Flanders at the moment. Congrats! kay:


And what exactly is it that we are doing wrong, you'll find the exact same situation in Wallonia...




I regret by the way that Switzerland changed their original font (that is in Belgium since 1978). The ex-Yugoslavian country's have the proof that it is still a very modern font.










In Belgium


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## De Klauw

Baiazid said:


> Obviously, we're not talking at all about "Belgian motorways", yet the debate is interesting. So, why not...
> 
> Language is still considered by many people as having to do with the national identity. Maybe it did back to the end of 20th century. But today, in the age of globalization language it's only about communication. Perhaps it takes longer to understand that and one needs to travel enough and speak more the 2 languages (native and English) to get it. I don't identify myself by the language I'm speaking. Indentity lies in culture, thoughts, actions etc. But not the language. Of course, it would feel weird to talk French or German to my kids back at home. Yet we do talk English or French among ourselves once the conversation involves another person who doesn't speak Romanian.


Globalisation or not, in Flanders more than 90% of the population speaks Dutch, in Wallonia 90% speaks French, in Germany 90% speaks German. It's quite obvious that people identify with languages. It's one of the last differences between nations. English is used in international conversations. it does not threaten the national languages. And BTW: monolingualism and the fact that people self-identif with a language do not go hand in hand.


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## De Klauw

brisavoine said:


> ^^Hm, I'm not sure I understand what you mean...
> 
> All I know is that in supposedly imperialist France, Ghent is posted as "Gent", whereas in Flanders Mons is not posted as "Mons" (as if the rest of Europe was supposed to know it's called "Bergen" in Dutch), and in Wallonia Ghent is not posted as "Gent". If that's not ridiculous, in a country that hosts the EU institutions!


Only Walloon cities are mentioned on signbords by their Dutch name only. If you drive the E17 Antwerp-Lille,you will see that Lille is signed as Rijsel (Lille), just the same as in France.


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## De Klauw

brisavoine said:


> Anyway, bravo, you've done a great job at showing the international forumers what's going on in Flanders at the moment. Congrats! kay:


What a load of crap, in Wallonia Antwerpen is also signed by the French name only. As usual you're making one-sided accusations again and generalizations. Flemings are not more extremist than other people in Europe.


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## De Klauw

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ At the end of the day, the effect on highway network is clear: Belgium has a worse network than nearby countries (proportionally). It is underdimensioned and - more important - has a huge backlog of maintenance to be done. Not much construction of new lanes and alignments is seen in Belgium.


First of all, the jurisdiction of the highways is in the hands of the regional government. So the 'standing-still-situation' on national level has nothing to do with the maintenance of the roads in Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels. Second: Belgian roads are not that worse, not worser than roads in the US or most parts in Europe. thirdly: the Belgian road network is not at all underdimensioned. It's more the opposite, we have therefore less traffic congestion than your country.


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## brisavoine

Wimpie said:


>


Do you realize the irony of that picture? You guys write the German name of Aachen, but not the French name of Liège. Belgium is NUTS. :nuts: :doh:


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## De Klauw

^^Luik is an official name as well, most Belgian cities have an official Dutch and French name. Aken is not an official name as Dutch is not an official language in Germany.


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## Ingenioren

Is there also a sign saying Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen) on E40 east from Liège? I tought it was only Aachen, but haven't been paying attention since i usually know where i'm going - maybe just in the german-speaking region? (Damn Google for not having streetview in Belgium.)


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## De Klauw

^^Wallonia recently changed its policy. Previously Aachen was signed as 'Aix-la-Chapelle', but since so many people were not aware that Aachen = Aix-la-Chapelle they now only sign Aachen. However: Flemish cities are still signed with their French names only. This for the reasons I said earlier.


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## ChrisZwolle

Language politics. Especially something road signage is not meant for. But try tell that the Belgians...


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## ChrisZwolle

brisavoine said:


> By the way, how do you pronounce "Lille" in The Netherlands? Also, how do people call Dunkirk in The Netherlands?


Lille is just Lille like in French. Dunkerque is a place name Dutch people hardly ever discuss about in conversation.


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## brisavoine

^^Not everybody knows the name of cities in the language spoken in each city. Do you know what Θεσσαλονίκη is? Or what about Варна? Where is that? Even in the Latin alphabet, many francophones for example do not know what Köln or Wien is.

In Switzerland there is the urban myth of those French tourists who wanted to visit the beautiful lakeside city of Morat, but could never find it, so they were very disapointed, but instead they discovered the city of Murten, and it was not so bad after all. :lol:


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## nerdly_dood

brisavoine said:


> ^^Not everybody knows the name of cities in the language spoken in each city. Do you know what Θεσσαλονίκη is? Or what about Варна? Where is that? Even in the Latin alphabet, many francophones for example do not know what Köln or Wien is.


Варна: Varna. Never heard of it but since I see that weird little H there I know that's using Cyrillic text not Roman.

Θεσσαλονίκη: After staring at each letter I can slowly sound it out: Thessaloniki. I've heard of it and know it's in Greece, but not much else.

Heard a lot about a city named Köln in German class and ONLY NOW after googling it have I found that it's Cologne. Hmm.

As for Wien, it took a couple weeks of hearing about it being in Österreich and wondering if Vienna fit in there somewhere before it was mentioned that it was their Haupstadt, at which point I figured out what was going on.


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## Penn's Woods

Maxx☢Power;73346657 said:


> Ok, how about this: All signs, everywhere, use the language(s) spoken in the city they're referring to. Paris is Paris, Aachen is Aachen, Genova is Genova, Bratislava is Bratislava, etc. Problem solved.
> 
> Seriously, how insanely difficult does it have to be?


Well, my preference would be for both the name of that city in its language and its name in the language of the place the sign's in. That way, everyone (almost...) is happy. I admit this may be because I'm a language geek....


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## philimonas

brisavoine said:


> ^^Not everybody knows the name of cities in the language spoken in each city. Do you know what Θεσσαλονίκη is? Or what about Варна?


What about Солун (if it was signed that way in Bulgaria) or Βάρνα (if it was signed that way in Greece)?

Transliterating is different than translating..!


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## Spookvlieger

These pictures where made for a railway extension project near the airport of Brussels but also show the A1/E19 motorway near the airport and the machelen intersection.

Update diablo project 25/01/2011



De Prodigy said:


> Update 25.01.2011
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> De werken schieten daar serieus vooruit!!
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## Wimpie

> These pictures where made for a railway extension project near the airport of Brussels but also show the A1/E19 motorway near the airport and the machelen intersection.


Cool! I already sas some of these photo's on another forum. The project is impressive but on the other hand its kind of a pitty that they're not going to build the mega freeway anymore.




Maxx☢Power;73346657 said:


> Ok, how about this: All signs, everywhere, use the language(s) spoken in the city they're referring to. Paris is Paris, Aachen is Aachen, Genova is Genova, Bratislava is Bratislava, etc. Problem solved.
> 
> Seriously, how insanely difficult does it have to be?



So you expect them to transliterate places in your Latin alphabet. That goes against your principles in my eyes.

All places outside Belgium are signed both with their exonyme AND their endonyme. The language laws only apply to internal places.


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## Spookvlieger

Wimpie said:


> Cool! I already sas some of these photo's on another forum. The project is impressive but on the other hand its kind of a pitty that they're not going to build the mega freeway anymore.


I seems belgium doesn't needs a mega freeway I guess :dunno:
Instead lots of 2x2 motorways need to be upgraded to 3x3, I would rather see the money used for that instead of a super highway


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## Wimpie

Mmm 3 X 3 is a bit of an odd configuration. I believe a 2X3 or perhaps a 2X4 will do for now 

This for example is a 2x3


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## ChrisZwolle

six-laning roads like E313 is much more important than a massive 12-lane E19 between Brussels and Antwerpen. Maybe they should just widen E19 to 8 lanes or upgrade parallel A12 to full motorway standards. That way there is sufficient capacity between both metro areas.

Annoying is that the R0 widening doesn't seem to gain any ground.


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## Wimpie

It did gain alot of ground in the Flemish state of Belgiums. The plans were made made, the environmental effects report was finished years ago and they were already planning to build up the budget. However, the state of Brussels seems to be taking over by some green NIMBY group that is against everything Flanders plans.


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## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe they should just widen E19 to 8 lanes or upgrade parallel A12 to full motorway standards.


You could even do both! Though having both routes as 2x3 would be better than 2x4 A1 and 2x2 A12 for capacity and redundancy.

Upgrading the A12 to full motorway standards (and better yet, reroute E19 onto it, taking long-distance traffic) would help take traffic off the bit of R0 between the two roads, as more would choose to take A12, rather than R0-A1.


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## Wimpie

Some picturess of a reconstruction last spring


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## Junk

:eek2:mg::shocked:WOW! Belgian motorways _actually_ get reconstructed!!


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## Spookvlieger

^^ They do, but not frequently enough. But I believe coming 3-4 years a lot of money is made free for reconstruction of motorways


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## Wimpie

Indeed, motorways in Vlaams-Brabant were all reconstructed in the past 5 years. The Flemish government is now planning to spread that succesfull program to the rest of Flanders so that we have a motorway network in excellent condition by 2015.
I have to say that of all AWV-departments, those of Vlaams-Brabant & Limburg have always been more frequent at keeping roads (both freeways & normal roads) in better condition.
Those 2 regions also have the best & most readible traffic signs. 
The only bad thing in Limburg is the E314, large parts of it have been reconstructed last year though. Plus they're also building a new interchange.

For those reasons I'm currently placing Vlaams-Brabant on the first place but I'm a bigger fan of the Limburg lower grade network.



Junk said:


> :eek2:mg::shocked:WOW! Belgian motorways _actually_ get reconstructed!!


Don't act like an idiot...


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## lambersart2005

oh yeah... GREEEEAAAAAT Flanders.... :bash:


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## Wimpie

I just described the current situation and the plans for the next 5 years...

Belgium is a federal state and the states are fully autonomous when it comes to for example public infrastructure. This means that Flanders and Wallonia are two seperate nations when it comes to roads.

This resulted in the following situation as observed objectively by the federal government; the richer Flanders has a road network which is now in better condition than that of Wallonia. 

Within Flanders there are differences as well between provinces. That I discribed when I explained the situation in the provinces of Vlaams-Brabant & Limburg. I have never said anything about "greeeeaaaat Flanders".

Act like an adult or stay out of this topic I would say, if you have nothing more to contribute.

The border crossing is visible in these photo's




























Or this video (around 2.15)


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## Spookvlieger

^^Damm that couldn't be more worse than in that vid you posted. I don't think mister labersart2005 has something more to say...
That pavement looks like it has survived a war...


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## Spookvlieger

Queque on the Brussels RO






Some other vids:


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## Spookvlieger

And for people who are interested in a road trip on the allways crowed E40 Highway:
A trip from Grootbijgaarden (near Brussels) to the city of Nieuwpoort at the Belgian coast.


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## Wimpie

I've seen those video's some time ago, it is really an interesting trip but too bad the uploader didn't choose to speed them up


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## Junk

Wimpie said:


> the richer Flanders has a road network which is now in better condition than that of Wallonia.


I do not know very much about the roads in Wallonia but the roads around Antwerp harbour are in pretty bad condition...


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## Jeroen669

Wimpie said:


> the richer Flanders has a road network which is now in better condition than that of Wallonia.


...but is still far worse than in all neighbouring countries...


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## Wimpie

^^

Not true, not true at all. Have you ever been to Germany? As I said before, in most provinces the roads are now in better condition than those of for example Germany (and definitively in better condition than any American freeway).

Random picture of a Flemish motorway as found on Gmaps...


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## Jeroen669

Most flemish motorways are generally ok, except from the E34 and the E313 which still have bad parts. But for normal roads, I absolutely don't agree that flemish roads would be in better condition than german ones. I really don't know in what world you're living...


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## Suburbanist

I haven't driven on E42 Charleroi-Liège, which I heard is in bad shape. I have driven 3 months ago on E42, though, from Herstal to Sankt-Vith. The first sectors are ok, but once the route branches off south, it has some stretches in very bad shape. It is a very beautiful route but it had, back then, some sector in bad need of repaving (and first snow hadn't come by then).

I hope they fix roads all over the country, not only around the major cities. The N63/N4/N89 2x2 expressway, for instance, is in a very bad shape with painting long overdue, some rusty signs and, God forbid, some quite dangerous at-level interchanges that should get viaducts or underpasses. It's not a rural road, but an expressway 2x2 all the way. 

Antwerp Ring also have some sectors with crumbling pavement, alternated with others quite new and shinny.


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## Spookvlieger

^^I went to Namen/Namur last weekend and the E411 and E42 around Namen/Namur both looked like they survived a fallout. I had to drive 90km/h in some sections because I feared loosing control due to ginormous holes in the pavement, equal to the vid posted here above hno:

You won't believe your eyes when you see this.
Here is a section of the E19.
The pavement looks OK untill around 2.35 where you can see a warning for bad pavement.
You can think you are driving somewhere in Russia when you watch this...

The sign says; Over a length of 3km, Bad pavement, speed reduced to 90km/h


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## Penn's Woods

Wimpie said:


> ^^
> 
> Not true, not true at all. Have you ever been to Germany? As I said before, in most provinces the roads are now in better condition than those of for example Germany (and definitively in better condition than any American freeway).


That's a very broad statement....


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## SkyView

I guess Wimpie has never driven anything outside Belgium, otherwise he wouldn't write such moronic statements.


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## piotr71

I would not say any bad word about Belgian secondary roads. They are in really good good condition and aren't any worse than other European roads. Yes, of course, there are some exceptions, however my overall expression is more than positive. Another thing is how significant progress has been done in recent years
with reference to repaving Belgian motorways. 

Let me show you some examples:

E34/A11. This motorway some 5 years ago was just piece of ruin. Very old uneven concrete has been replaced by smooth tarmac.



















E17 Gent - Kortrijk.

This motorway wasn't better than E34.









And some national roads.
N38









N8









N34.









N31.









R30.









N9.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Where's that picture of the N34? (I'm asking because of the streetcar* tracks.)

*American for "tram."


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## piotr71

N34
https://picasaweb.google.com/109480072698896029207/N34Belgium#


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## piotr71

del pls


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## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Where's that picture of the N34? (I'm asking because of the streetcar* tracks.)
> 
> *American for "tram."


It's the Belgian coastal tramway. It runs form the city of Knokke all the way to de Panne. It's the best public transportation in the coastal communities and between two towns it makes speeds of up to 80km/h.

It's build for handling all the tourist flocking the Belgian coast in the summer months. Because only 3 or 4 cities on the Belgian coast have a trainstation, the tramway is an important connection between all the coastal towns.

At a lengt of 67km, this is the longest single tramline in the world.

Here ypu can see its route and stops.









http://www.movares.nl/NR/rdonlyres/0BF3D71F-D61C-4ED6-A06F-FDB82D8BDB4B/0/KusttramMovares.jpg


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## piotr71

Has this tram ever been going to France? Looking at the map and the pictures I would rather say so.


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## Penn's Woods

I spent five minutes Googling "Bray-Dunes" (which is the town on the French side of the border) with "tramway" and found mentions of a (in French) "voie ferrée unique" (single-track railway?) passing through there connecting Dunkerque and De Panne, which has been closed for years; and also of a former freight line.

EDIT: Found something else: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Buurtspoorwegen_West-Vlaanderen.png
Looks like the tram line never got west of De Panne.


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## ChrisZwolle

The E40 (A18) in that area (Jabbeke - French border) was the last major motorway construction project in Belgium, completed between 1989 and 1997.


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## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> The E40 (A18) in that area (Jabbeke - French border) was the last major motorway construction project in Belgium, completed between 1989 and 1997.


Is that a hint to get back to talking about roads?


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## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> I spent five minutes Googling "Bray-Dunes" (which is the town on the French side of the border) with "tramway" and found mentions of a (in French) "voie ferrée unique" (single-track railway?) passing through there connecting Dunkerque and De Panne, which has been closed for years; and also of a former freight line.
> 
> EDIT: Found something else: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Buurtspoorwegen_West-Vlaanderen.png
> Looks like the tram line never got west of De Panne.



OT:
That map shows the density of local tramways lines that the whole of Flanders used to had. All cities where connected by Tramways. It was a golden age of tramways for Belgium. My town, that now has only 40.000 people, had 6 tram connections with other cities. It is such a shame they are all gone. And now plans are for a new lightrail system, if only they had kept those tramlines 50years ago...hno:


----------



## piotr71

ChrisZwolle said:


> The E40 (A18) in that area (Jabbeke - French border) was the last major motorway construction project in Belgium, completed between 1989 and 1997.


Let me just add that this motorway is unlit on almost all its length.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

piotr71 said:


> Let me just add that this motorway is unlit on almost all its length.


It also lacked a physical median (just grass), but I believe they recently put up some embankments in the median to reduce collisions.


----------



## piotr71

Carriageways are seperated in this way:










and this:


















Also (I think you meant this) in such a way, which looks pretty new:










By the way. Do you know (forumers) whether road N97 by-passing town Dinant has full motorway specification just not carrying motorway sign, or it is
a bit lower standard road (no shoulders, tighter bends or so). I have very detailed map of Northern Belgium which clearly distinguish this section of N97 from regular 2x2 roads such as N4 which I have driven on.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

N4 is just a 2x2 road, but does not have complete grade-separation. 
N97 can be compared with a droga ekspresowa or voie expresse with full grade-separation and is a de-facto motorway.

Both roads have a 120 km/h speed limit unless otherwise signposted.


----------



## piotr71

ChrisZwolle said:


> N4 is just a 2x2 road, but does not have complete grade-separation.
> .


As far as I remember it consist of several 1x4 sections, as well. It also has very short slip roads and goes through some smaller town's centres, so my map showing N97 in different way does its job very well. 

After your comment I compared it to a map of France where I found more roads of this kind(one of them I experienced with my car), so it must be in fact motorway with no motorway's sign.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Is it like the N80 between Sint-Truiden and Hasselt?
That is an 2x2 express way, it's fully seperated with shoulders but with sometimes same level crossings, and exits at other crossings, some parts are 90km/h and others are 120km/h.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No, it's more like N25 between Louvain-la-Neuve and Nivelles or N74 around Hechtel/Overpelt.

It's virtually impossible to distinguish them from full-blown motorways.


----------



## piotr71

N80 on my map looks like N4. 

N97 is exactly like N74 from Rosterheide nr Hechtel-Eksel (some 20 kilometres North of Hasselt) to Dutch border.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^I see, I've already driven on the N74, the motorway like part starting at Hechtel ending in Neerpelt. Well I guess nobody really knows how to call those. for me those are just expressways and not full highways...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

N74 was once planned as A24. Unfortunately the Dutch government wasn't very cooperative with building A69 from Eindhoven to the Belgian border.

That would've made a nice north-south motorway from Eindhoven to Hasselt (and Liège). Especially because there is quite a lot of industry around Hasselt/Genk and Dutch N69 is severely overloaded (30.000 vehicles per day through the shopping street of Valkenswaard).


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Yes I know, the N74 is a very busy road when nearing towards Hasselt also. People I know coming from that direction are always late due to traffic jams.
It alos needs much more divertions around town centers.
Also the N80 was planned to have a full connection on the E40 motorway but Walloon government didn't really liked that id ,leaving Sint-Truiden without a proper connection on the E40 towards Brussels. Because of that the N3 towards Tiennen is overloaded constantly. I admire people still living next to that road....


----------



## Spookvlieger

There is also an example of "Grand travaux inutiles" around Sint-Truiden, the n718 was meant to be an Expressway connecting the n716 and the n79. Only 3.5 km of it got completed, making it the shortest National road of Belgium. I leave nearby that road and it's 2x2 fully divided with shoulders, there is no speed limit, traffic poles where set up but no lightbulps where placed. The poles are rusted because they are never repainted and you can drive with your bike on it because it is as busy as a dirt road...


----------



## Spookvlieger

The whole plan for Sint-Truiden used to be this:
I know it's a rough drawing but these where (and still are) the problems:

-Construction of the N80 towards the E40 motorway, creating a much needed connection for growth.
-Divertion of traffic from the local roads between the N716 and N79
-Divertion of traffic, keeping it out of the city center, by connecting the N716 with the N3 and further on towards the N80.

Dreams did not come true...


----------



## Filou

piotr71 said:


> Has this tram ever been going to France? Looking at the map and the pictures I would rather say so.





Penn's Woods said:


> Looks like the tram line never got west of De Panne.


These tracks are railroad tracks not tramtracks. The tramline is built at metre gauge, this is standard (1,435 mm) gauge...


----------



## Penn's Woods

joshsam said:


> There is also an example of "Grand travaux inutiles" around Sint-Truiden, the n718 was meant to be an Expressway connecting the n716 and the n79. Only 3.5 km of it got completed, making it the shortest National road of Belgium. I leave nearby that road and it's 2x2 fully divided with shoulders, there is no speed limit, traffic poles where set up but no lightbulps where placed. The poles are rusted because they are never repainted and you can drive with your bike on it because it is as busy as a dirt road...


Are you allowed to say "Grands travaux inutiles" around Sint-Truiden? :lol:


----------



## Wimpie

SkyView said:


> I guess Wimpie has never driven anything outside Belgium, otherwise he wouldn't write such moronic statements.


I've driven in; France, The Netherlands, Germany, Luxemburg, Austria, Italy, The United States of America (New York, New Jersey and Califoronia), Spain, Tunesia, Turkey, Greece (Corfou), Switzerland & Hong Kong.
To my opinion I've got enough expierence abroad to be able to claim that on an international scale Belgium is really not doing that bad, especially not in Flanders. Ofcourse, compared to country's like the Netherlands where they have roads in a freakishly good condition, nothing looks ok.

I btw have a picture of the coastal tram in the 60's (visible in this picture is also the old road marking system which was inspired by that of the US).


----------



## Glodenox

Penn's Woods said:


> Are you allowed to say "Grands travaux inutiles" around Sint-Truiden? :lol:


There is a Dutch term ("Grote nutteloze werken"), but the term GTI (which stands for "Grands travaux inutiles") has pretty much become standard, so why wouldn't we use it? The term itself is based on a book written by RTBF journalist Jean-Claude Defossé in 1990 "Le Petit Guide des Grands Travaux Inutiles", which was followed up with a TV series that got attention in the whole country (extremely rare today).

More information:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grote_nutteloze_werken

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Wimpie

I happen to have uploaded some fragments of the show on Youtube a couple of years ago.


----------



## Pannyers

^^ Funny video.


----------



## Wimpie

The documentary was made in the early 90's if I'm correct. Most of these mistakes have been eiter demolished, rebuilt or used for other purposes.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Besides that, I've drivin around Rome once and there are massieve projects around Rome that where never finished either. Next to the Italian A12 highway you can see tons of never used bridges and miles concrete pillars in the fields next to it for an incompleted highway or railwaytrack maybe...


----------



## Wimpie

When it comes to road, the Italians seem to think in a way that very much resemblences ours


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Various Belgian media report the 2010 traffic volume on R1 in Antwerpen (Berchem - Borgerhout) was 260 000 vehicles per day. While this is technically not impossible, it's not very likely, considering the 2007 traffic count was 145 000 vehicles per day. In any way, 260 000 vpd would make R1 the second-busiest motorway in Europe (after M-30 in Madrid which tops 312 000 vpd).


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Various Belgian media report the 2010 traffic volume on R1 in Antwerpen (Berchem - Borgerhout) was 260 000 vehicles per day. While this is technically not impossible, it's not very likely, considering the 2007 traffic count was 145 000 vehicles per day. In any way, 260 000 vpd would make R1 the second-busiest motorway in Europe (after M-30 in Madrid which tops 312 000 vpd).


I saw a headline and blurb on De Standaard's site yesterday (didn't try to read the article) that I didn't understand and can't find now. Something about the Antwerp ring carring more vehicles and the Brussels one being busier....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ The Brussels ring road is more congested because the intensity / capacity ratio is worse (180 000 vehicles on six lanes vs the alleged 260 000 vehicles on 10 lanes).


----------



## Spookvlieger

You'll need to be abonnee if you want to read the full article, but this is what I could find:



> *Antwerpse ring drukste snelweg van Vlaanderen *
> woensdag 06 april 2011, 05u00Auteur: (vhn) BRUSSEL - Tussen Borgerhout en Berchem passeren elke dag 260.000 voertuigen, waarvan iets meer dan een vijfde vrachtwagens. Wegvakken op de Antwerpse ring, bijvoorbeeld tussen de afritten Antwerpen-Zuid en Berchem, maken nagenoeg de complete top tien uit van de meest drukke snelwegen in Vlaanderen.


http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=E138HSTR&word=ring+antwerpen



> *GVA:*
> 05/04 De Antwerpse ring is de allerdrukste snelweg van Vlaanderen. Tussen Berchem en Borgerhout passeren maar liefst 260.000 chauffeurs per dag.
> 
> 
> Het aantal voertuigen op de ring is een absoluut record. De cijfers komen van de zogenaamde detectielussen, kabels in de weg die verbonden zijn met een meettoestel. In die meetsystemen is de laatste jaren tien miljoen euro geïnvesteerd.
> 
> Ter vergelijking: op de Brusselse ring staat op sommige plaatsen 16 uur file per dag. Tussen Jette en Zellik passeren 186.000 voertuigen. Dat is minder dan in Antwerpen, maar er zijn ook minder rijstroken.
> 
> Het aantal vrachtwagens is ook gestegen op onze wegen. In Antwerpen is een vijfde van het verkeer vrachtverkeer.


http://www.gva.be/nieuws/binnenland...s-drukste-snelweg-van-vlaanderen-video-2.aspx

^^There is a nice vid on that page where you can see the everyday traffic jams and show you the detection system..  They also speak about the Brussels RO ps: Anyone know how to add a movie from adobe flashplayer like the one above?)

*Articles*: Between borgerhout and berchem, 260.000 vehicules drive everyday. More than 1/5 are trucks going and departing from the harbour of Antwerp. The numbers are recorded by detection systems that are build in the roads pavement.
For compairison; On the Brussels RO drive 186.000 vehicules/day and that results in 16hours of traffic jams/day.

Now I would like to know about traffic volumes on the E313, it's only a 2x2 higway for the most part but it's always jammed towards Antwerp...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

At 2x2, about 90 000 - 100 000 is really the max. (which means near-constant congestion).


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^So how would they come at 260.000 for he R1? Like you said that is impossible...


----------



## Wover

ChrisZwolle said:


> At 2x2, about 90 000 - 100 000 is really the max. (which means near-constant congestion).


http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.997055

"Vehicles per day per direction"

So for E313 around Hasselt it would be around 74 000. Even though I think it gets the busiest around the last 25km before Antwerp...


Some more highwaysrelated news:

New campaign to protect motorcyclists
http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/mediatheek_en/1.996425

Higher taxes on Diesel cars:
http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/mediatheek_en/1.996397


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^This study: http://www.ersvlimburg.be/upload/40157148/downloads/tactische_studie_e313_syntheserapport.pdf

Says that afther merging with the E34, an thus when becoming a 3x3 highway, it handles between 137.000 and 150.000 vehicules a day. It also say that on an average day the E313 before merging with the E34 handles an average of 72.000 vehicules/day


----------



## Spookvlieger

*Replacement E313 Beringen-Ham*











The E313 Highway between Ham end Beringen will be fully replaced. Budget= 20million EURO.
Works already began a 21 march and will end in oktober.
First 3 bridges will be renewed, those have already been done.

next:

-Breaking up of all the fundations
-Reconstruction of the fundation in continuous reinforced concrete.
-New sewer system
-New concrete noice barriers (across the whole E313 in Limburg, I noticed them being placed in Hasselt yesterday)
-New steel crash barriers

but no new illumination 

The road will be fully broken op on both sides at Tessenderlo and trafiic wil have to take the parralell roads there. In other section the traffic wil pass at one side of the road and the shoulders will be widened to handle the traffic.









http://www.wegenenverkeer.be/images/stories/projecten/tessenderlo.gif


This is a pic that was in my newspaper today. couldn't find it on the internet so I scanned it...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow that is a serious renovation! Too bad they don't widen it at the same time too...


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Yes ineed, maybe they've thought about it in the new design so they can easely ad a new lane in the future, but I doubt it 
Anyway i'm glad they finally do something about this highway, full of puttholes and pavement that looks like patchwork.

Anyway, I hope we have a gouvernment soon, The NVA has forseen much more funding for highways and roads in Flanders (not in Wallonia because they voted for a party that doesn't want to change the budget for highways) So a lot of new projects on Flander's highways will follow the coming years...Finally!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yep, masterplan Antwerpen 2020 is badly needed. If nothing is done Antwerpen region will face a complete and total collapse of traffic. Truck traffic alone will occupy 4 - 6 lanes on some motorways, leaving no or little space for other traffic. The saturation and the lack of redundancy of the Antwerpen regional road network are already severe.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Funny you should mention that: saw this last night on De Standaard's site -

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20110408_157

EDIT: and what's the "new A102"?


----------



## Penn's Woods

joshsam said:


> Anyway, I hope we have a gouvernment soon, The NVA has forseen much more funding for highways and roads in Flanders (not in Wallonia because they voted for a party that doesn't want to change the budget for highways) So a lot of new projects on Flander's highways will follow the coming years...Finally!


I'm trying to get my head around this paragraph: I thought highways are a regional matter; is the _funding_ federal? And it seems odd to me that the budget would treat the regions differently.... (And do Flemings and francophones end up fighting over how much highway funding there would be in Brussels, although I guess there aren't a lot of highways there....?)


----------



## Teach

> I thought highways are a regional matter; is the funding federal?


Yes, they are regional, as is the funding. So there being a new federal government should have no effect on planned investments on highways.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> I'm trying to get my head around this paragraph: I thought highways are a regional matter; is the _funding_ federal? And it seems odd to me that the budget would treat the regions differently.... (And do Flemings and francophones end up fighting over how much highway funding there would be in Brussels,* although I guess there aren't a lot of highways there....?)[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Only like 3 miles of motorway or so because RO is mostly on Flemisch territory.
> Anyway sometimes I don't get the funding things myself, but the average belgian doen't lies awake at night from that


----------



## De Klauw

joshsam said:


> ^^So how would they come at 260.000 for he R1? Like you said that is impossible...


The R1 is not 2x2 but more 2x5 or even 2x6 at the widest point (like here). 

So 260.000 is not that impossible.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

joshsam said:


> Penn's Woods said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to get my head around this paragraph: I thought highways are a regional matter; is the _funding_ federal? And it seems odd to me that the budget would treat the regions differently.... (And do Flemings and francophones end up fighting over how much highway funding there would be in Brussels,* although I guess there aren't a lot of highways there....?)[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Only like 3 miles of motorway or so because RO is mostly on Flemisch territory.
> Anyway sometimes I don't get the funding things myself, but the average belgian doen't lies awake at night from that
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean that the signs in the Flemish of the ring only in Dutch and the bit in Brussels in both languages?
Click to expand...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

ChrisZwolle said:


> WTF some Belgians attached a swing set to a bridge across the Antwerpen Ring Road.


That looks like fun!


----------



## Wover

Penn's Woods said:


> Goedenavond/Bonsoir!
> 
> I'm playing with Google maps and just came across a road outside Liège marked "P415" (it's in the middle of this map: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=50.667743,5.538826&spn=0.04907,0.109692&z=13) And I saw a couple of Ps down in the province of Luxembourg on another playing-with-maps session a few days ago.
> 
> Are these provincial roads? I've checked both of these findings against three paper road atlases* and they're not there, and I've never noticed any other "P" roads on paper maps.... Are they actually marked?
> 
> *The 2010 Michelin Benelux road atlas, a Geocart Benelux road atlas which has no date but I bought it a year or two ago, and this fabulous publication: http://www.amerigo.nl/belgie/9020948539.html


I googled a bit and it is indeed a "Provincial" Road. As you most likely know there are 10 provinces in Belgium and they maintain these really small roads. Usually they're not even numbered.

Here's a discussion about it in Dutch, but on the second picture he posted, he found out that on ViaMichelin maps, they are also shown: http://www.wegenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1530


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Also a lot of roads used to be P-roads but then got an N-road afther some reforms. I don't really now much about is...It just means that a lot of roads that where previously funded by a province became funded by the nation, bu that hapened long time ago.


----------



## Wimpie

The transition to relatively the Flemish state and the cities happend only a couple of years ago, 2007 if I'm not mistaken. P-roads never existed in Flanders though. Even though the provinces no longer maintain roads, some roads were/are stull under provincial care until their quality was/is acceptable enough for the state to be willingly to take them under their care.

Most provincial roads used to connect cities within the province outside the regular national road network or they used to have very low nation route numbers. Their design was/is very similar; spacious concrete roads with a hard shoulder, originally for pedistrians, now for cyclists.

The cities never really bothered wether the road was in an acceptable condition or not for they are ranked lower on the food chain and you don't bite the hand that used to feed you.
The roads that are now city roads but still have a nation road number are being funded by the state.

Typical provincial design









Altough a large part of them were converted to this when transferred to a city


















Or this when transfered to (a city, funded by) the state


----------



## Wimpie

Uploaded a new video


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Great vid 
Old concrete road...and the usual old rowhome ribbon development


----------



## Zagor666

Vlaanderen 



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## [email protected]

Is this the road along the Brugge-Sluis canal ?


----------



## Zagor666

Sorry,i dont know.Its a picture from an old motorcycle touring magazine :cheers:


----------



## Wimpie

A Belgian freeway light, up close


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^It's actually giant


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New railway in the median of the E19 between Brussels and Mechelen:


----------



## Glodenox

^^ For more information and pictures about the line mentioned above, you can check these two topics in the Belgian section of the forum (mainly in Dutch):

RAIL : Diabolo, ontsluiting Brussels Airport (1)
RAIL : Diabolo, ontsluiting Brussels Airport (2)

The second is the continuation of the first thread. We've been gathering all information on it since 2007, so it's quite lengthy 

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some statistics about the Belgian motorway network.



















Interestingly, 1972 was also the top year in the Netherlands. In 1971, the UK saw the largest amount of mileage added.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Oops we forgot building a new one last 20 years :lol:


----------



## Wimpie

^^
10 years, I think the E40 to Calais was opened in that year.
With the opening of the N74, A11 and N31 we will get a lengthy boost to our network.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The last openings were E429 around Lessines and E25 in Liège in 2000. E40 was completed a few years earlier.


----------



## piotr71

N40-very late in the afternoon.










This is actually N597 road. N40 we'll see after several kilometres.








































































We are turning to N53 Beuamont.









Kind of confusion here. Need to make a decision.




































Well, _toutes directions_ will lead us to N40, hopefully.









Here we are.


















Let's turn right.


----------



## piotr71

Very typical for N40 long and straight stretch.

















































































The commune Givet(on top of the sign) lies on the river Meuse on French territory. N40 crosses Givet entering France and then continue in Belgium again.


















It's getting really dark.



































































































Thanks.


----------



## piotr71

Let me show you a briefed report of N96.


----------



## piotr71

And N92.


























































































Full preview from post 109 here:
*http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1265311&page=6*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pics don't show again. This is exactly why I left Google Picasa. I got tired of taking the chance whether pictures will show or not. Sometimes they're visible to user A, but not to B, or sometimes only after some refreshing a few, half of it, or all will show.


----------



## Wimpie

Nice pictures. Some stretches of the N96 and N42 are in pretty bad shape. I like the scenery alot though.

Like this


----------



## Spookvlieger

Dam that on ramp is in so bad shape hno:

Thanks for the pics piotr 71!


E19:


Meurisse said:


> Heb deze week eens de spoorlijn proberen te fotograferen. Er is al een behoorlijk stuk met bovenleiding voorzien!


----------



## Spookvlieger

E40 Starting point in Brussels: Reyers









http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2398481651_501cc7bcc2_z.jpg


----------



## Zagor666

I love the Ardennes :cheers:


----------



## g.spinoza

A bit off topic news, but it involves roads and Belgians.

My condolences and rip to the Belgian bicycle rider Wouter Weylandt, who died at Giro d'Italia near Rapallo (Liguria).


----------



## Thermo

Very sad day, indeed hno:


----------



## lambersart2005

lamp-post heaven... :cheers:







Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Wimpie

^^
Actually you just me me realize that our lamposts aren't found anywhere else on this planet


----------



## Ingenioren

Those from the first pic are also seen in France...


----------



## lambersart2005

I love crossing the border from D or NL, seeing a loooong row of shiny lampposts already in the distance... :cheers:

vive la belgique et ses autoroutes majesteuses!
leve belgie!
es lebe belgien


----------



## Spookvlieger

lambersart2005 said:


> I love crossing the border from D or NL, seeing a loooong row of shiny lampposts already in the distance... :cheers:
> 
> vive la belgique et ses autoroutes majesteuses!
> leve belgie!
> es lebe belgien


I like that to









http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/387363311_07cdf88dc4.jpg









http://www.fotothing.com/photos/4f9/4f945f817ac16c537bf67e223dea8943.jpg


----------



## Spookvlieger

Comprehend:









http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/4629/spict7750td7.jpg


----------



## Spookvlieger

_*Fases of the work on the E313:*_









http://www.wegenenverkeer.be/images/stories/projecten/e313_overzicht.jpg


----------



## Wimpie

Ingenioren said:


> Those from the first pic are also seen in France...


They might look like it but they aren't the same 
And even if the lamp is the same, the lampposts aren't. No country in the world ever made full steel lampposts of 20 metres tall just to light a 2 lane freeway 



lambersart2005 said:


> I love crossing the border from D or NL, seeing a loooong row of shiny lampposts already in the distance... :cheers:
> 
> vive la belgique et ses autoroutes majesteuses!
> leve belgie!
> es lebe belgien


I found a very illustrative video concerning our well lit roads


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^When driving it feels so normal to see them so lit up. But watching this vid, It feels strange....

Edit:

I've never seen it so empty like this before, must have been few hours before rush hour...

90% chance of getting this when driving there:


----------



## piotr71

Let's not forget that some of them are lit only on junctions or as long as sun shines


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^That's one of.........two highways that aren't lit? :lol:


----------



## piotr71

Yeah, I know two (I was thinking about third one, but couldn't recall any). Strangely, A19 isn't lit up, however N38 being kind of continuing road for A19 has got nice lamp posts on large part of its length.


----------



## Spookvlieger

:lol:


----------



## Wimpie

E314 In Aarschot & Leuven



























































































Forgotten road with the old Belgian roadmarking system, sacred ground for road enthousiasts


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Nice pics but the Ecoduct is in Maasmechelen,Limburg 
Nice to see the old road markings. I have never seen them before.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A3 terminus in Brussels:


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^They want to schange that into a normal boulevard hno:
It's one of the only direct routes into Brussels. For here you can drive through tunnels and get fast on the inner ring road of Brussels. I have no idea why they want to change that since it handles a lot of traffic.

From a 4x2 to a 2x2, It will end up toatlly clogged up. The last part is even 4-2-2-4 lanes wide, they will never be able to handle the traffic on a 2x2 boulevard.

It handles 120.000 vehiclues, the part of the A3 before the junction wilt the Brussels outer ringroad(R0) handles almost 140.000 vehicules.









http://www.demorgen.be/static/FOTO/pe/1/1/1/media_xl_3861466.jpg?20100907141915

video about the changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A6UDNkB64w

For who is interested in the first section of the E40 highway:
immages form the 40ties, better maintained than today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJq2RyyMbuI


----------



## Wimpie

Vilvoorde Viaduct



















E40 Leuven-Luik










































































































































































































































































































This place is known as Heilissem in Flanders


















Welcome to Wallonia






























































































































Welcome to Flanders (for the next 2 km's)













































Welcome back to Wallonia









Remainings of the old Belgian roadmarking system


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## ChrisZwolle




----------



## Spookvlieger

Immages are not showing for me


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## Thermo

My God. Is this really 2011???? hno:


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## DanielFigFoz

Portuguese motorways are better than Belgian ones? Can this be true?

No seriously, Portuguese motorways are mainly new and even the old ones are in good shape. It's just all the other roads that I'm sure are worse than Belgian ones.



Coccodrillo said:


> Wallonian waste of money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3xSEk5PFC4


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Surel

^^ Thats really the WOW video... Whoever might have worked out this road must have been first class comedian.


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## Spookvlieger

DanielFigFoz said:


> Portuguese motorways are better than Belgian ones? Can this be true?
> 
> No seriously, Portuguese motorways are mainly new and even the old ones are in good shape. It's just all the other roads that I'm sure are worse than Belgian ones.
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Let me correct you, they are better than Wallonian ones. You can easely spot the difference afther the border.


----------



## Filou

joshsam said:


> ^^They want to schange that into a normal boulevard hno:
> It's one of the only direct routes into Brussels. For here you can drive through tunnels and get fast on the inner ring road of Brussels. I have no idea why they want to change that since it handles a lot of traffic.


The reason is obvious, off course. The Brussels government wants to cut the numbers of cars in the city with at least 20 %. The reconversion of this motorway in a green boulevard will make the city less carfriendly and more inhabitantfriendly.


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## ChrisZwolle

Right, a constant traffic jam is much more attractive for its inhabitants. Such schemes cause more problems than it solves.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Right, a constant traffic jam is much more attractive for its inhabitants. Such schemes cause more problems than it solves.


Maybe constant traffic jams will exasperate people so much that they will start taking public transport. I would.


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## Spookvlieger

Lot's of people from the whole of Belgium work in Brussels. They come from further than 50km. Connections with public tranportation to Brussels aren't to write home off. NMBS sucks all the time with constant delays and fallouts. Still lots of people take the train despite that because the traffic in and around Brussels is always bad.
And know they want to take out one of the major routes in to Brussels? :nuts:

I'm sure people in Munchen won't mind if the 94 or 955 was shut down?


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## g.spinoza

joshsam said:


> I'm sure people in Munchen won't mind if the 94 or 955 was shut down?


Traffic in München is bad, even if the public transportation is impeccable. I drive to work myself because I found it cheaper, and I rarely find myself in a jam (most people come from out of city to work in München, but I do the opposite: I live in the city and work outside), but if that was the case, I'd surely take the U-Bahn.

But to answer your question, yes, Münchner would definitely mind


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## Wimpie

g.spinoza said:


> Maybe constant traffic jams will exasperate people so much that they will start taking public transport. I would.


And who said that I WANT to take public transport? What Brussels is doing is forcing people to change their lifestyle. People have to decide for themselves, not some tiny Belgian state with more important problems to care about.


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## g.spinoza

Wimpie said:


> People have to decide for themselves, not some tiny Belgian state with more important problems to care about.


I want to take the plane to downtown. Why the hell they don't build an airport in the city main square? hno:


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## Wimpie

Typical answer from some one in which everything is either black or white. You have to stay realistic in your arguments.


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## g.spinoza

Is it realistic to force a city into constant traffic jams and road expansion just because you WANT to drive there? 






or, as one of the greatest Italian singer sang:

"Liberty is not being upon a tree,
it's not a gesture or an invention
it's not a free space
liberty is involvement."

Everyone of us live in a community, and a being in a community is doing what is better for the community.


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## Filou

> People have to decide for themselves





g.spinoza said:


> I want to take the plane to downtown. Why the hell they don't build an airport in the city main square? hno:





Wimpie said:


> Typical answer from some one in which everything is either black or white. You have to stay realistic in your arguments.


I suppose that his point was that when the government builds motorways, tunnels, railroad, metrolines they always decide for the people. You can have the argument that you want to decide for yourself how you want to go to the citycenter, but the decision to build infrastructure is not an individual one.

In this case the Brussels government decided that there are too much cars in the city, witch brings the quality of life and the health of the Brussels population in danger.

After downgrading this motorway, you will still have the possibility to drive to Brussels, the only difference is that it will be on a normal avenue and not a motorway.

You state that the people must decide for themselves, but in this case the people of Brussels decided that your car among all these others are bad for their physical and mental health. 

What is more important: your freedom to drive your car or the freedom of the Brusselers to breathe?

Examples of similar situations in other countries show that the trafic jams never increase after demolitions of citymotorways. Quite the contrary...

Seoul:

Before:










During demolition:










After:










Much better for the quality of life, huh?


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## ChrisZwolle

Yes, reduction of capacity by 30% and subsequent much more severe congestion is going to improve air quality. :nuts:

Really, if you think traffic flow and air quality is going to improve by a drastic reduction of roadway capacity you really need to see a mental doctor. 

You may reduce traffic somewhat, but 80% of idling and queuing traffic is still much worse for air quality than 100% of free-flow traffic. In fact, do you know what the roads with the worst air quality are? Urban arteries with 40 000 vehicles per day, not motorways with 120 000 vehicles per day.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> Really, if you think traffic flow and air quality is going to improve by a drastic reduction of roadway capacity you really need to see a mental doctor.
> 
> You may reduce traffic somewhat, but 80% of idling and queuing traffic is still much worse for air quality than 100% of free-flow traffic. In fact, do you know what the roads with the worst air quality are? Urban arteries with 40 000 vehicles per day, not motorways with 120 000 vehicles per day.


Mental doctor is needed by those who are willing to stay in queue for hours every day when road capacity is insufficient, instead of taking public transport.


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## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> Mental doctor is needed by those who are willing to stay in queue for hours every day when road capacity is insufficient, instead of taking public transport.


90% of the car journeys - including congestion - are still faster than public transport.


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## aswnl

g.spinoza said:


> Is it realistic to force a city into constant traffic jams and road expansion just because you WANT to drive there?


Is it realistic to force a city and it's outer ring into constant jams and road expansions just because some bunch of cityhippies DON'T WANT you to drive there ? hno:hno:


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> 90% of the car journeys - including congestion - are still faster than public transport.


I don't know where you took this statistic but it feels wrong. When there is serious congestion (and in Munich this happens quite often) driving is simply not an option. 40 minutes to get to Garching from Munich (last sunday's jam), rather than 15 minutes in normal conditions or 17 minutes by U-Bahn


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## g.spinoza

aswnl said:


> Is it realistic to force a city and it's outer ring into constant jams and road expansions just because some bunch of cityhippies DON'T WANT you to drive there ? hno:hno:


Yes, it is. It's called government. Otherwise it's just anarchy.


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Please compare door-to-door transport under normal circumstances. Not station to station. Besides that, many people like to compare trips to the city center, while the majority of the trips is outside the city center (Europe is not the U.S. or Tokyo). The 10% trips where public transport is usually faster are city center to city center trips, or from favorable locations to the city center.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> ^^ Please compare door-to-door transport under normal circumstances. Not station to station. Besides that, many people like to compare trips to the city center, while the majority of the trips is outside the city center (Europe is not the U.S. or Tokyo). The 10% trips where public transport is usually faster are city center to city center trips, or from favorable locations to the city center.


You may be right. But I still think that better air is worth waking up 15 minutes earlier.


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## ChrisZwolle

The quality of air is most certainly not determined by the number of vehicles on a certain road. There are much more issues to factor in, the urban layout (street canyons), number of traffic lights, background concentrations, congestion, truck traffic share, etc. That's why I said before that urban arteries with traffic lights tend to have a worse air quality than motorways with far more traffic. 

Hence, the reduction of traffic on a motorway will not necessarily improve air quality, on the contrary, even at lower traffic volumes, air quality can still degrade.


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## Wimpie

Filou said:


> In this case the Brussels government decided that there are too much cars in the city, witch brings the quality of life and the health of the Brussels population in danger.
> 
> After downgrading this motorway, you will still have the possibility to drive to Brussels, the only difference is that it will be on a normal avenue and not a motorway.



It's a tunnel for for Christ's sake. The motorways is still well outside the dense city limits. If Brussels is going to downgrade this strecht of freeways. Traffic jams will be several kilometers longer all over Flanders. They will also take longer to desolve and thus as Chris states, you will be moving the "air problem" to any given region in Flanders.
They should never have given Brussels the right to control those stretches of motorways.
Brussels was blessed with an efficiënt roadway infrastructure, downgrading that would be as much of a disgrace like bombing the Gisa Piramids...


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## Filou

ChrisZwolle said:


> Really, if you think traffic flow and air quality is going to improve by a drastic reduction of roadway capacity you really need to see a mental doctor.


I think your insults are disgusting. And you call yourself a mod? I don't want to have a debate with people who start to call people names when they have different opinion.

Bye


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> The quality of air is most certainly not determined by the number of vehicles on a certain road. There are much more issues to factor in, the urban layout (street canyons), number of traffic lights, background concentrations, congestion, truck traffic share, etc. That's why I said before that urban arteries with traffic lights tend to have a worse air quality than motorways with far more traffic.
> 
> Hence, the reduction of traffic on a motorway will not necessarily improve air quality, on the contrary, even at lower traffic volumes, air quality can still degrade.


At some point, you will have to leave the motorway anyway and get into the city streets, with traffic lights and canyons and such. You cannot seriously expect me to believe that reducing traffic increases pollution. It's like saying that Jesus Christ froze to death, as we say in Italy.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

g.spinoza said:


> At some point, you will have to leave the motorway anyway and get into the city streets, with traffic lights and canyons and such. You cannot seriously expect me to believe that reducing traffic increases pollution.


Usually traffic spreads out on various streets at the end of a motorway (as is the case on E40, which continues into tunnels and city streets). E40 only makes it halfway to the city center by the way, it terminates in residential areas. 

Reducing traffic alone may not degrade air quality. However, this reduction is usually only achieved by seriously obstructing traffic flow, which subsequently leads to more congestion and emissions, thus degrading air quality.

They monitor air quality in my city, and did you know which road had the worst air quality? Not the motorway with 120 000 vehicles per day. Not the six-lane beltway with 60 000 vehicles per day. But a 50 km/h two-lane city street where all buses come through with near-constant stop-and-go traffic. It carries only 10 000 vehicles per day, yet has the worst air quality of all.


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## Wimpie

Filou said:


> I think your insults are disgusting. And you call yourself a mod? I don't want to have a debate with people who start to call people names when they have different opinion.
> 
> Bye


He's not insulting anyone, he's merely stating facts. In order to improve the air quality in an economically responsible way, you have to make sure traffic keeps moving. Narrowing down roads or demolishing viaducts and overpasses, you're slowing down the traffic flow which results in more pollution.


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## g.spinoza

ChrisZwolle said:


> They monitor air quality in my city, and did you know which road had the worst air quality? Not the motorway with 120 000 vehicles per day. Not the six-lane beltway with 60 000 vehicles per day. But a 50 km/h two-lane city street where all buses come through with near-constant stop-and-go traffic. It carries only 10 000 vehicles per day, yet has the worst air quality of all.


I can see that, but I think that reducing the possibility to access to that street would reduce the number of buses (or cars) accessing to that street. It would still be the most polluted road in your city, but at least it would have, say, 7000 vehicles per day, and not 10000.


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## Filou

It doesn't matter, g.spinoza, Chriszwolle thinks that people who disagree with him have mental problems. It useless to argue with somebody like that. hno:


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## Filou

Wimpie said:


> He's not insulting anyone, he's merely stating facts.


:lol: Yeah, who's facts? Never mind, discussion is useless here.


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## g.spinoza

Filou said:


> It doesn't matter, g.spinoza, Chriszwolle thinks that people who disagree with him have mental problems. It useless to argue with somebody like that. hno:


I disagree, I think Chriszwolle is one of the most balanced and interesting people to talk to here. I always listen to what he says, even if sometimes I don't agree, but I have to admit that remark about people who needs mental doctor was way out of line, especially from him.


----------



## Filou

Suburbanist said:


> If you make car traffic even more hellish by reducing capacity and expensive by reducing street parking (essentially leaving underground parking as the only option), people might just move elsewhere where traffic is better. If those people are skilled and earn good wages, employers might well follow them later.


Again, this is what's happening right now! You guys don't understand. Brussels is today inaccessible, middleclass is moving outside the city, industry has left almost completely, offices move far away to Flanders or Brabant Wallon.
For you guys the sollution is simplistic: build more roads in Brussels and everything will be fine. It's just the overkill of tunnels and urban motorways that has caused all these problems. By resizing the infrastructure to a more human level, forcing the people to find other sollutions, the city will be a more pleasant place. It's a proven concept! Keep the cars outside the city and middleclass will come back, because their children can play in the streets, offices will come back, because their (or most) employees live IN the city, the others will commute by train or metro...



> If you reduce mobility, you will only increase the cost of housing near employment centers.


That's quite absurd!



> Then, again, you end only with the rich (which can pay millions) or the poor (who accept living in cramped flats with not much space, let alone private gardens/yards) will think as attractive to live.


Again: that's how it is TODAY! thanks to your carfriendly city!



> for business and then business + employees will relocate elsewhere.


Again and again: that's what's happening today. To stop relocation of business and middleclass the city has to become human-friendly.

It's funny how you describe a "possible" future while this is what Brussels is today! How can you not know this?



> of Wallonia and Flandres attracting business from Brussels to their own regions, just after the border, creating reverse commute


There is no reverse commuting. The workers (middleclass) have allready left the city. What's left in Brussels is unemployment of more than 20 % . You seem not to understand that the situation is very bad in Brussels. The present situation must be turned around. 

The car and motorway-freeks do not see that our cities have become unlivable because of the endless flow of trafic jams going in and out of the city.
Building more roads will make it worse. Correcting the errors of the past will surely improve the situation.

I'm not against cars, I'm against the terror of the cars. Let's make it better for everybody.


----------



## Wimpie

If it wasn't neceassary to bring all those commuters into Brussels, the national minister of transport, infrastructure and mobility would have never let those tunnels built.
If Brussels is going to lock itself out for the rest of Flanders, we'll be more than happy to transport everything elsewhere.
Brussels should do something about its social problems first before blaming the people that pay your debts.


----------



## Filou

Wimpie said:


> If it wasn't neceassary to bring all those commuters into Brussels, the national minister of transport, infrastructure and mobility would have never let those tunnels built.


For who was it necessary: for the commuters or the Brusselers? It's clear that the benefit of these tunnels do not go to Brussels. But the cost of maintenance or now for Brussels.
In those days the national politicians did not consider Brussels a city to live in. In was just a place for offices and trains- and cartunnels to bring the commuters to work.



> If Brussels is going to lock itself out for the rest of Flanders, we'll be more than happy to transport everything elsewhere.


Don't forget to take your tunnels with you when you leave. :lol:



> Brussels should do something about its social problems first before blaming the people that pay your debts.


Is this a discussion about tunnels and urban motorways or is it just a hate tirade against Brussels?

Sadhno:

I see that the discussion is useless.

Some people believe that motorways and cartunnels bring prosperity. I don't see that.
Other people believe that a sollution has to be found for the traffic congestion and the decay of the city. That's my opinion.

I don't think we will agree.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wimpie said:


> ....


What's the blue symbol next to the parking sign?
Also, I noticed one of the rest/service areas had a lodging symbol. Is that common in Europe? Are hotels at highway service areas decent places to stay? I'm imagining them being loud....


----------



## Surel

Its easy to call people wackoes just because they have different oppinion on some matter. E.g. I am very pro nuclear energy, but dont know if it helps my arguments to call some anti nuclear activists names (neverthless I do sometimes :O).

The fact that people left the cities for the suburbs and countryside has completaly different reasons. People just prefer private space for their own hyves. The richer the family, the more probable it will have as its base a house somewhere in the countryside, preferably in some preserved nature. Lower density is the key. This has nothing to do with traffic. People in fact move out of the city in spite of the longer commuting times, just because they love the suburb, or peace of a village.

The business or industrial centrum moving to the places where the people live would only destroy that location and the people would move away again.

Thus what is the presented solution? Creation of massive car traffic flows from the suburbs into the city centers. What happens? The city center becomes even less suitable for normal living, causing yet more exodus. The areas around these arteries will die out completaly.

Just a question. Why is the area around Central Park the most expensive residential area in New York? Is it because there is good connection from here to the suburbs? Hell no. It is because it is around the nicest place to live around there and yet staying in the city, thus not having to commute.

I dont share the oppinion that the city centers would be saved by creating huge superhigways going through them. On the contrary, the city centers are destroyed by it. But to make it clear. I am not talking about agglomeration areas. These certainly needs superhigways to hub the whole place together. But no one expects there that people would actually live there next to the motorways and be happy.

And to close it. I am fully aware of what are the possibilities of personal car and I use it gladly. But I think that the world where everyone basically has one car and uses it in the same manner as people used their own feet, just requires much better sollutions then creating superhigways or expanding freeways into the city centers. It requires personalized public transport system and new non fossile fuel based economy...!! I am not going to reapeat myself, since I wrote about that already several times. But I see the city tunnels as some starting points. The problem for the city and people in it now however stays after the cars leave the tunnel.


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## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> What's the blue symbol next to the parking sign?
> Also, I noticed one of the rest/service areas had a lodging symbol. Is that common in Europe? Are hotels at highway service areas decent places to stay? I'm imagining them being loud....


Rating of the rest area. But I have no idea how the rest area's are rated :dunno:









https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GWTa2KFjrog/Ryy3sB8zGWI/AAAAAAAABNI/sJXhmXq-bIY/s800/IMG_1589.JPG









https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zAR1yVYnVl8/Ryy5CB8zHKI/AAAAAAAABT0/qg8SbvuBYOI/s800/IMG_1650.JPG

Edit:

The newer signs don't use them anymore i think:
Picture by wimpie:








http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/Wimpie25/P211109_1558.jpg


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## Spookvlieger

National road N31 Bruges(no highway)
Changes to highway A17/E403 at the junction with the A10/E40


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## Wimpie

Penn's Woods said:


> What's the blue symbol next to the parking sign?
> Also, I noticed one of the rest/service areas had a lodging symbol. Is that common in Europe? Are hotels at highway service areas decent places to stay? I'm imagining them being loud....



They're usually quite descent because most of them are owned by international chains of hotels. They're completly built for motorways, soundproof. I said this before, in Europe you can live your life without ever leaving the motorway


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## Wimpie

High speed police chase around Antwerp


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## De Magellaan

Suburbanist said:


> What most transit wackos ignore, or better saying, the question they refuse to ask, is: _what impacts reduced access have on the economy of a city/neighborhood_? All Western schemes to reduce traffic via capacity constriction have failed to move everyone to transit. In the long term, you end with unintended consequences.
> 
> Amsterdam pursued such policies in the 1970s. Its central area may look lovely, but many serious business and companies' HQs left for outer suburbs, curiously close to - guess - the A10 and A9 motorways.


Actually, the city center is still very important for employment. The municipality's website has good data on it. 
Access for cars has been reduced but the rate of cycling has increased a lot. Then there's also public transit which works just fine in a diverse, dense city like Amsterdam. So you can wonder if there's truly so much reduction in accessibility. 
Also central Amsterdam is attractive because of it's livability not accessibility. People move there because it's a good place to live, in part because car traffic is light. The city attracts many people with a degree in higher education, and it are these people why there are so many HQs in Amsterdam.
Which by the way tend to cluster around the railway stations that also have nearby highway access. These locations are highly accessible by all modes of transportation. 

So if you look at the impact of these policies on the economy it has been very positive.


----------



## -Pino-

The businesses in Central Amsterdam are mostly of a relatively small size. That makes good employment rates (don't forget the many shops in the area), but I would still say that the Amsterdam city centre is incapable of housing large enterprises as you also need them in a capital city. And to the extent that the city centre is capable of doing so, it must be only in a fringe area like the IJ embankments. Where the town council has been realistic enough to provide for good car access.

But well, the conclusion is justified that the more classic part of Central Amsterdam is highly liveable. But well, so are areas that through NIMBYism prevent much needed infrastructure from being constructed. It has a sense of egoism over it, that approach that says "just go somewhere else".


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## Wimpie

Back to Belgium now


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## Cicerón

Found this on another forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuqbftqboKs

Edit: Sorry, I didn't know it was posted before. I saw the video was uploaded on June 11th so I only checked the posts from the last 2 days.


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## Wimpie

I believe this already appeared in this thread


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## GZT

Well, actually, the worst road in Belgium is this one: http://maps.google.be/maps?f=d&sour...91534,3.701068&spn=0.001363,0.003484&t=h&z=19

You go up and down 16 times, and the 'hills' are extra high. I have to slow down to 15km/h... There have been many complaints by neighbours and questions about the safety (firefighters, ambulance...)


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## Wimpie

all of the speedbumps in this region were replaced with lower versions in asphalt after the regulations concering speedbumps were changed.
You don't have to slow down to pass the new versions, it's mainly a visual thing now. 
If you think those speedbumps in the link are too dangerous, you can always post a remark on meldpuntwegen.be


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## tompaw

Hi guys. This thread is not my usual place, but 2 days ago I came back from my regular car ride to London and - as usual - the ONLY place that had me stuck BOTH WAYS was Antwerpen.

Driving to London it was a usual traffic I suppose, as my car stayed on R1 and after 2 hours we left the damn^H^H^H^Hwonderful town of Antwerp behind us.

However, when driving back to Krakow, the damned thing forced me off the motorway in Gent and then gave me the WEIRDEST route ever. First through some river port in Gent, then through the very down town of Antwerp. Here's the GPS log:










My question is: was there really something happening on BOTH rings at that date? Or did my car just go mental for no reason? 

There were these warning signs displaying something over the motorway, but for me it looked like:

vegoenoenbogsonnbggveg*VIADUCT*ntgeskent R1/R2

Anyway, you guys have the best TMC system in the whole freaking Europe, even though I wanted to literally SMASH the damned thing when it was changing my route EVERY 2 MINTUES. It would be nice if your signs/lcd messages/tmc messages were in English, too.

BTW - It's the first time I drove through Eindhoven after the new road layout was finished >> WOW!!


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## Glodenox

There'll be traffic works on the Viaduct of Vilvoorde (R0 around Brussels) soon (18 June till the end of August), but that shouldn't have been accounted for yet. Can't really think of any other viaducts that are even remotely nearby that could have an effect on your route...

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## ChrisZwolle

> the damned thing forced me off the motorway in Gent


Nobody forces you anywhere


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## Penn's Woods

^^Really! I have no GPS at all, and yet I manage to get out of town and go tooling around the Northeast, into multiple states, just fine.

Maybe it was confused, since it has A-numbers only and the signage has only E-numbers.


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## tompaw

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nobody forces you anywhere


A few times in past I decided to be smarter than TMC. I never won


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## Spookvlieger

^^When I do not agree I force my GPS to use another route. Like in Austria where I (actually me and my dad) drove like 80km on map while GPS was saying to use another(very strange and defenataly not faster or smarter) route and we could not get it find another possible way, it made us U turn 3 times on the same road while there was no other road nearby...

Anyway we kept on driving(around 80km) by map and then suddenly the GPS fixed itself.


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## [email protected]

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Really! I have no GPS at all, and yet I manage to get out of town and go tooling around the Northeast, into multiple states, just fine.


Same here. Good old maps FTW. 
Some friends of mine who have a GPS still manage to lose their route anyway.


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## Spookvlieger

The A12 urban highway in the suburbs of Antwerp. As you know it's not a real up to standard rule highway but a converted national road.
Enjoy! Some pics remind me remotely of the USA with the big shops and advertising...



Antwerp skyliner said:


> 1. de 82 m hoge toren.
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> 5. Boom centrum, skyline brussel in de verte
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> 
> 13.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 15. en de avond valt...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 18. nogmaals antwerpen, links silvertoptorens, ergens rechts zie je de londen tower...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 22. een uurtje later..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 23. a12 by night (zonder statief)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mvg.


----------



## De Klauw

^^Nice. But I suppose the pictures with the Antwerp skyline are taken with a very with large zoom lens?


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^They probably are...I have no idea, It's taken from Boom 11km from Antwerp.


----------



## SkyView

Nice, pics, tnx !


----------



## Clone

mgk920 said:


> ^^
> I suspect that one of the major reasons why there are so few cabover type big-rig trucks in North America is that 'conventional' (engine in front) type rigs provide much better collision protection for the drivers.
> 
> The only cabovers that I see here are a few local short-wheelbase straight delivery trucks.
> 
> Mike


They are rare in Europe because they have to pay taxes for length, so the shorther they are the cheaper.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not really, in Europe trucks are limited to their entire length, not just the trailer, hence it's more economical to have a cab-over. Conventionals ("nose trucks") are usually only used in construction(like) activities or tank transport which have such a heavy weight that they can't use long trailers anyway.


----------



## Wimpie

A couple of new video's. The first video features the motorway seen in pictures in an earlier post.



> De filmpjes die ik gisteren gemaakt heb tijdens mijn ritje in Belgie:
> 
> 
> Startpunt hier is de N16 t.h.v. de kanaalbrug bij Willebroek, om iets verder de A12 richting Antwerpen op te draaien, om tenslotte nog een stukje R1 door de Kennedytunnel mee te pakken waar iets verder dan de video t.h.v. Zwijndrecht eindigt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dit filmpje toont een reeks tunnels in Brussel, met o.a. de tunnels komende van de N3 richting Wetstraat, en de tunnels op de kleine ring (R20) vanaf de Wetstraat tot Koekelberg:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> En tenslotte een stukje grote Brusselse ring (R0) t.h.v. het viaduct van Vilvoorde en de werkzaamheden aldaar waar ik me illustratief aan de geldende Vmax heb gehouden en dus goed te zien is dat vrijwel iedereen me inhaalde, en een gedeelte van de E19 tot Mechelen:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wat betekent "t.h.v."?

(What does "t.h.v." mean?)


----------



## ChrisZwolle

"ter hoogte van", literally "at the altitude of", but more like "near" (a city, street, geographical object, etc). Ter hoogte van Mechelen > Near or at Mechelen, in this case at the viaduct of Vilvoorde.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Thought it might be something like that. Probably a direct translation of the French "à hauteur de".


----------



## Spookvlieger

Nice vids! Like the second one to.
The last one is very recent. The vilvoorde viaduct is in repair since two weeks


----------



## Daviedoff

^^
I've made the 3 videos last Sunday afternoon (June, 26th.). In the future you'll see more videos like this from mostly Belgian routes and highways  .

These were my first 2 videos made with my new camera holder (filmed June, 23th.)

A10 - E40 Ostend to Aalter.




 
Border crossing B-Nl nearby Sluis (B:N376 - NL:N253)


----------



## Penn's Woods

Some Flemish motorways will no longer be lit at night (article in French): 

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique...ur-l-eclairage-des-autoroutes-en-flandre.html


----------



## Glodenox

Same news here with a few more details: http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/110630Lichtplan (article in Dutch)

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Road_UK

When is Belgium starting to upgrade it's motorway network? Even Poland is starting to straddle into the 21st century now, and the new A4 is a joy to drive on. They've had major roadworks on the Antwerp ringroad on the stretch Gent to Breda, and they preicted that the road will hold for 30 years. But I wasn't impressed when they delivered it. On the E17 on the Gent viaduct you notice that once in a while the beat changes when you drive over it. Antwerp-Eindhoven is like a railtrack. It seems to me they have done the E411 between Namur and Luxemburg twice 5 years ago, with contraflow traffic in place for 20 km. In the summer season! Roadsigns are messy, and they are fighting a language war on them.
I spoke to a Belgian driver about this once, and he blamed the Dutch lorrydrivers transiting through Belgium. But Dutch roads are like carpet....


----------



## Road_UK

Another nice anecdote. You know how in Belgium, they announce roadworks and lane closures up to 3000 metres before start? Three tears ago they were going to resurface a few km of road on the E40 at Adinkerke / Veurne. Starting right on the border with France coming from Calais. And out they came with the warning shields and their ridiculous big cones with the flashing light-bulbs, and they started lining everything up 3000 metres into France. At least they posted the warnings in both French and Flemish. The French, quite right as they are, threw everything back over the border back into Belgium, and started announcing the lane closure with their own diagram signs - and using their own medium size cones 600 metres before the border and the actual roadworks. With no more information then necessary, like in the most of Europe.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Daviedoff said:


> ^^
> I've made the 3 videos last Sunday afternoon (June, 26th.). In the future you'll see more videos like this from mostly Belgian routes and highways


Great! can't wait. You are doing a good job!


----------



## Daviedoff

^^ Thank you 

Another thing I'm quite interested at, is the lumination at the roads and highways, I take pictures from all kinds of lightpoles.

Here's an example, this is the picture you also see in my avatar, tomorrow you see more:


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Would be great to see some details on Belgian Highways


----------



## Daviedoff

Quite old Belgian sign (location: R0 Groenendaal):










Old model traffic light in Brugge (Bruges):










Pictures of Belgian lightpoles:


----------



## LMB

Penn's Woods said:


> Some Flemish motorways will no longer be lit at night (article in French):
> 
> http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique...ur-l-eclairage-des-autoroutes-en-flandre.html


I don't know Flemish well enough to understand the other article for comparison, but I can see that the Francophones here complain and ridicule the Flemish, calling them "englighted". This seems to me out of place, for the Francophones (as far as I know) are 1/3 poorer per capita than the Flemish, and would need to "économiser" much more than their neighbours. 

The proposed cuts seem sensible, lights will be reduced except around merging lanes, accidents and construction sites.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Deosn't matter. Belgium will face problems in energy suply the next decade because Nuclear powerplants are gonna close and alternatives are not effective enough. (stupid desicion if you ask me, like in Germany). Motorway lightbulbs use a lot power so shutting them down will help reduce power usage.


----------



## Spookvlieger

@davidoff:
Thanks for the pictures on Belgian lampposts 
Do you also have a pic of those type of lampposts that are strangeled into each other?
like this: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/33099771?source=wapi&referrer=kh.google.com


----------



## Wimpie

Road_UK said:


> When is Belgium starting to upgrade it's motorway network? Even Poland is starting to straddle into the 21st century now, and the new A4 is a joy to drive on. They've had major roadworks on the Antwerp ringroad on the stretch Gent to Breda, and they preicted that the road will hold for 30 years. But I wasn't impressed when they delivered it. On the E17 on the Gent viaduct you notice that once in a while the beat changes when you drive over it. Antwerp-Eindhoven is like a railtrack. It seems to me they have done the E411 between Namur and Luxemburg twice 5 years ago, with contraflow traffic in place for 20 km. In the summer season! Roadsigns are messy, and they are fighting a language war on them.
> I spoke to a Belgian driver about this once, and he blamed the Dutch lorrydrivers transiting through Belgium. But Dutch roads are like carpet....


Your comment makes no sense whatsoever from the first word till the last. Some of this might have been true 10 years ago but especially the Flemish network is in near excellent condition today. The Antwerp ringroad looks and drives great, especially knowing that is has been reconstructed in concrete.
Plus the biggest mistake that you are making is that there ISN'T A BELGIAN ROADNETWORK. Flanders, Brussels CR and Wallonia are all responsible for their own roadnetwork.


Road_UK said:


> Another nice anecdote. You know how in Belgium, they announce roadworks and lane closures up to 3000 metres before start? Three tears ago they were going to resurface a few km of road on the E40 at Adinkerke / Veurne. Starting right on the border with France coming from Calais. And out they came with the warning shields and their ridiculous big cones with the flashing light-bulbs, and they started lining everything up 3000 metres into France. At least they posted the warnings in both French and Flemish. The French, quite right as they are, threw everything back over the border back into Belgium, and started announcing the lane closure with their own diagram signs - and using their own medium size cones 600 metres before the border and the actual roadworks. With no more information then necessary, like in the most of Europe.


What the hell are you trying to say with this one, that it is a bad thing to announce road works well in advance?


----------



## Penn's Woods

LMB said:


> I don't know Flemish well enough to understand the other article for comparison, but I can see that the Francophones here complain and ridicule the Flemish, calling them "englighted". This seems to me out of place, for the Francophones (as far as I know) are 1/3 poorer per capita than the Flemish, and would need to "économiser" much more than their neighbours.
> 
> The proposed cuts seem sensible, lights will be reduced except around merging lanes, accidents and construction sites.


Are you talking about the article itself, or the comments? I think the readership of La Libre Belgique is relatively to the right (it was traditionally a Catholic paper), things in Belgium are (at least on the Internet), um, tense these days. And Internet comments are often ridiculous, if entertaining to the outsider.

And as some point out, Wallonia - the French-speaking region - has made a similar move already.


----------



## Road_UK

Wimpie said:


> Your comment makes no sense whatsoever from the first word till the last. Some of this might have been true 10 years ago but especially the Flemish network is in near excellent condition today. The Antwerp ringroad looks and drives great, especially knowing that is has been reconstructed in concrete.
> Plus the biggest mistake that you are making is that there ISN'T A BELGIAN ROADNETWORK. Flanders, Brussels CR and Wallonia are all responsible for their own roadnetwork.
> 
> 
> What the hell are you trying to say with this one, that it is a bad thing to announce road works well in advance?


As a Euro-driver, I will judge a motorway by country. I will not get involved with local childish slapstick language wars. Belgian roadsigns are downright confusing, because they are fighting a war on it, while the sole purpose of a roadsign is to give directions. Antwerp ringroad hasn't improved, and the mere fact that there is a busy left-hand lane exit after the Kennedy tunnel causing congestion only proves my point that Belgium is lacking a modern transit system. The way they are announcing roadworks is horrible. There is a reason why countries like Germany and France are announing lane closures only 600 mtrs before. It reduces congestion. People won't panic 3 km up the road! When it comes to transportation in Belgium, Belgium is lacking well behind its European partners. It's not only my opinion as an experienced Euro-driver. It's a well-known fact. Take a look at the billiungal road sign thread. Somehow, there is always that same old sign from the Kortrijk area popping up. These are from people acknowledging that Belgian's road network are far from efficient. Are you a Belgian? Do you feel attacked? Too bad. It's my opinion.


----------



## Karnoit

LMB said:


> I don't know Flemish well enough to understand the other article for comparison, but I can see that the Francophones here complain and ridicule the Flemish, calling them "englighted". This seems to me out of place, for the Francophones (as far as I know) are 1/3 poorer per capita than the Flemish, and would need to "économiser" much more than their neighbours.
> 
> The proposed cuts seem sensible, lights will be reduced except around merging lanes, accidents and construction sites.



Obviously you don't know french enough either to make the difference between the article (which is totally correct) and the first comment of the readers (which is a harmless joke).

And the ones that are 1/3 poorer than their neighbours already took the same decision in 2007


----------



## Wimpie

^^
Well, why isn't in effect yet? 



Road_UK said:


> As a Euro-driver, I will judge a motorway by country. I will not get involved with local childish slapstick language wars. Belgian roadsigns are downright confusing, because they are fighting a war on it, while the sole purpose of a roadsign is to give directions. Antwerp ringroad hasn't improved, and the mere fact that there is a busy left-hand lane exit after the Kennedy tunnel causing congestion only proves my point that Belgium is lacking a modern transit system. The way they are announcing roadworks is horrible. There is a reason why countries like Germany and France are announing lane closures only 600 mtrs before. It reduces congestion. People won't panic 3 km up the road! When it comes to transportation in Belgium, Belgium is lacking well behind its European partners. It's not only my opinion as an experienced Euro-driver. It's a well-known fact. Take a look at the billiungal road sign thread. Somehow, there is always that same old sign from the Kortrijk area popping up. These are from people acknowledging that Belgian's road network are far from efficient. Are you a Belgian? Do you feel attacked? Too bad. It's my opinion.



If you really have that much experience on the European roadnetwork, you're really bad on making judgements. We've got an excellent roadnetwork, that's a fact, not you're subjective opinion. We're not fighting a language war on roadsigns, we don't use our infrastructure for that. Signs are either in Dutch in Flanders, in French in Wallonia or Billingual in Brussels. We fought our language war in the 60's, we fought to get rid of the Apartheid in Belgium that limited the Flemish majority and give it the same rights as immigrants. Today we keep on fighting to keep our rights and defend our economic superiority.

About announcing roadworks, if you don't announce them well in advance, people will get killed and that's a fact. If I were responsible for it, I would rather have an extra long trafficjam than 7 people getting killed because they didn't see it comming.


----------



## Karnoit

Wimpie said:


> ^^
> Well, why isn't in effect yet?


It is. Between 00.30 and 05.30 except during harsh winter and in dangerous area. Now if you're so cocky that you can't admit that Wallonia may sometimes take good decisions and make use of it before Flanders I can't help you.


----------



## Daviedoff

I've made another video, this time from the Expressway N31 Bruges - Zeebrugge, one of the busiest N-road in Flandres.


----------



## Road_UK

Wimpie said:


> ^^
> Well, why isn't in effect yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you really have that much experience on the European roadnetwork, you're really bad on making judgements. We've got an excellent roadnetwork, that's a fact, not you're subjective opinion. We're not fighting a language war on roadsigns, we don't use our infrastructure for that. Signs are either in Dutch in Flanders, in French in Wallonia or Billingual in Brussels. We fought our language war in the 60's, we fought to get rid of the Apartheid in Belgium that limited the Flemish majority and give it the same rights as immigrants. Today we keep on fighting to keep our rights and defend our economic superiority.
> 
> About announcing roadworks, if you don't announce them well in advance, people will get killed and that's a fact. If I were responsible for it, I would rather have an extra long trafficjam than 7 people getting killed because they didn't see it comming.


You're a moron. You're fighting a language war. You're not having a debate about the efficiency of motorways, you are just spewing your Flemish-Nationalist rants, trying to convince us that the Flemish are actually superior. I won't get involved in your political discussions, I'm here to discuss motorways.


----------



## aswnl

^^
It's no use arguing with him. He simply denies any negative remark on the quality of Flemish institutions, infrastructure, roadsignage, etcetera. Not only on this forum, by the way.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Daviedoff said:


> I've made another video, this time from the Expressway N31 Bruges - Zeebrugge, one of the busiest N-road in Flandres.


Thanks! I enjoyed watching between all the talking 


@Wimpie. Yes roads in Flanders are in much better condition than in Wallonia, there is no-one who is going to deny that. It's very noticable when driving. But, when looking to other countries, you can't deny that our highway system is outdated, regardless if the road surface is good condition or not. It's the small things like modern lighting, new crash barriers, good looking roadsignage, trimming of the greenery next to the highway,... that make a highway looking good to. And that we don't have. There may be some new, some parts are better and newer than others, especially in the Flemisch diamond, but it would be great to see that everything gets replaced and doesn't stay their for another 40 years.

Just when looking to the vids of davidoff, you can see roadsurfaces are in good condition overall. But you can also notice other things that are in less good condition...
But you can also see that thing are being improved. If we ever get a gouvernment with N-VA, there will be lots of money for reconstruction of roads, at least, that is the intention.


----------



## Road_UK

QUESTION

A few years ago on the N4 between Arlon and Namur, I've noticed they were experimenting with a French-style hard shoulder lay-out. With interrupted linings. I haven't been on that road since, I only used it once to avoid congestion on the E411. 

Any idea what happened to that trial scheme? Did it work out?


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ Can you post an example? I've never seen such things. But since it's an N-road, Walloon gouvernment can do with it what they want...


----------



## Road_UK

^^








This photo is taken in France. You see the interrupted hard shoulder line. 
The N4 in Belgium is a National route, a dual carriageway with motorway characters and a hard shoulder. As a trial scheme they've implemented a French style hard shoulder layout as posted in the photo above.

I just wondered if it worked out or not... And is it still there?


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^I've never seen such things on hard sholders in Belgium. I do know that in Wallonia, the space between the two directions can be painted like this with two white interrupting lines with space in between. I've never drivin on the N4 so I can't tell.


----------



## Daviedoff

This is the N4, photo taken in October 2009:









As you can see with interrupted hard shoulder lines  .

I'm not sure, but I thougt there was also a small piece (+/- 3 km.) at de E403/A17 highway nearby Moeskroen/Moescron with the same kind of interrupted lines.


----------



## Road_UK

^^
Daviedoff you're the man!!!!!!!!! :banana::banana::banana:


Are they still there?

I've never seen them at or near Moeskroen. Well, I have - but that was across the border in France (Tourcoing) .

Edit: Have you noticed how I wrote Moeskroen only? This is to protect Wimpie from getting a heart infarct..


----------



## Spookvlieger

Well this is new to me


----------



## Penn's Woods

joshsam said:


> Thanks! I enjoyed watching between all the talking
> 
> 
> @Wimpie. Yes roads in Flanders are in much better condition than in Wallonia, there is no-one who is going to deny that. It's very noticable when driving. But, when looking to other countries, you can't deny that our highway system is outdated, regardless if the road surface is good condition or not. It's the small things like modern lighting, new crash barriers, good looking roadsignage, trimming of the greenery next to the highway,... that make a highway looking good to. And that we don't have. There may be some new, some parts are better and newer than others, especially in the Flemisch diamond, but it would be great to see that everything gets replaced and doesn't stay their for another 40 years.
> 
> Just when looking to the vids of davidoff, you can see roadsurfaces are in good condition overall. But you can also notice other things that are in less good condition...
> But you can also see that thing are being improved. If we ever get a gouvernment with N-VA, there will be lots of money for reconstruction of roads, at least, that is the intention.


What's the "Flemish diamond"?


----------



## Daviedoff

^^


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's the most densly populated area of Belgium.


----------



## Thermo

joshsam said:


> But, when looking to other countries, you can't deny that our highway system is outdated, regardless if the road surface is good condition or not. It's the small things like modern lighting, new crash barriers, good looking roadsignage, trimming of the greenery next to the highway,... that make a highway looking good to. And that we don't have. There may be some new, some parts are better and newer than others, especially in the Flemisch diamond, but it would be great to see that everything gets replaced and doesn't stay their for another 40 years.


Absolutely true. When dealing with roads, the people responsible only think of the road *surface*, nothing else. So the result is we have pretty good roads today, BUT the surroundings (lighting, crash barriers, roadsigns,...) often look very outdated. Which makes that the overall picture of Belgian roads isn't looking good or modern. And the worst thing: nobody seems to care. 

Take this (tourist sign) as example.
A dirty old sign, but it's not replaced "because you can still read it"... It gives the whole road an outdated look. I know this sign and today it looks even worse. But nobody thinks of replacing it...


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Is that sign on the E314? Because there is a sign of Hageland on there looking worse than this one...


----------



## Thermo

joshsam said:


> ^^Is that sign on the E314? Because there is a sign of Hageland on there looking worse than this one...


Yes it's the E314. Like I said it looks worse today (picture must be old). Further on this highway there is a sign 'Diest' that you can't even read anymore...


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Yep, It's sad. If they just would trim those trees down, those signs wouldn't be so dirty in the first place...


----------



## LtBk

There must be somebody who cares. I'm sure this was covered before, but what's reason for lack of maintenance?


----------



## Spookvlieger

Because there is no money for it. Don't ask me why because we sure pay enough taxes (highest in Europe). I sometimes wonder where our tax money goes...Looking to The Netherlands always saddens me that we can not have such clean highways adn so much nice new projects.
All projects are almost halted because of stupid green activistes :bash:. Those really are stupid people. We live an urban country, deal with it. Go fight for the greenery somewhere else...


----------



## Thermo

joshsam said:


> Because there is no money for it. Don't ask me why because we sure pay enough taxes (highest in Europe). I sometimes wonder where our tax money goes...Looking to The Netherlands always saddens me that we can not have such clean highways adn so much nice new projects.
> All projects are almost halted because of stupid green activistes :bash:. Those really are stupid people. We live an urban country, deal with it. Go fight for the greenery somewhere else...


Money is not the problem. Like you said: we pay loads of taxes, also for the roads ("wegenbelasting"), so there is money. It's just they don't spend it on the road surroundings. BUT things have finally changed I think. You can see a clear change in the last years: slowly things get better.


----------



## Penn's Woods

LtBk said:


> There must be somebody who cares. I'm sure this was covered before, but what's reason for lack of maintenance?


Suddenly, I'm noticing a lot of signs in Pennsylvania that are half-hidden behind trees. A criticism people often make of Belgium. I'm assuming no one wants to spend money trimming the trees, and am resisting the temptation to rant about...um, the temptation to rant.

Ahem.

By the way, as much as some people pick on the appearance of Belgium's roads, and particularly the signage, I do really like the practice of duplicating roadside exit signs and the like on both sides of the road. Not just because of the tree problem but because it's easy to miss a sign because a truck's blocking your view of it.... Never seen that anywhere else, and once you see it in Belgium it's just so obviously a good idea you wonder why.


----------



## CNGL

That spot is hard to find. I remember some images of Street View in Austria, but that was on the Brenner pass, just at the border with Italy.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Very stupid private issues from Belgium hno: I wish we had street view!


----------



## Penn's Woods

joshsam said:


> ^^Very stupid private issues from Belgium hno: I wish we had street view!


There was an item in Le Soir yesterday about a Google bike (not a car) making StreetView photos in the narrow streets of the old part of Bruges, so I assumed that meant the issues had been resolved.

http://geeko.lesoir.be/2011/07/05/google-street-view-un-velo-sillonne-les-rues-de-bruges/

My translation: 
"A bicycle is roaming the streets of Bruges since Tuesday, in order to make panoramic photos for the computer program Google Street View, the city's tourism official Jean-Marie Bogaert (N-VA) announced.

"From Tuesday to Thursday, this privately-owned bicycle will be used by an employee of the American company to take as many photos as possible in the Venice of the North. “Google is interested in Bruges because this city is a popular tourist destination, recognized by UNESCO as part of the world heritage," indicated the tourism official, adding that a car would not have been able as easily as a bicycle to enter all the small arteries of the city."


----------



## Tchek

I really wish I was the guy in the bike/car roaming the streets for Street View, all around the world! My dream job!


----------



## Spookvlieger

@ Penn, I really hope so!


----------



## Daviedoff

New video, for testing my new camera (Samsung ST90). It shows a part of the E40 highway between Aalter and Nevele. At the end you see the traffic jam at the exit Aalter, this is very commun every evening rush hour.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^your vids are all equally fun watching


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Daviedoff said:


> New video, for testing my new camera (Samsung ST90). It shows a part of the E40 highway between Aalter and Nevele. At the end you see the traffic jam at the exit Aalter, this is very commun every evening rush hour.
> 
> 
> (At the moment poor quality, because youtube is still processing the video.)


Great video, a bit of a dodgy move at 1:00!:lol:


----------



## Daviedoff

^^ Thank you 

Today I was in Gent and I've made 2 new video's.

N498-N9 Maldegem - Eeklo, a typical Belgian oldschoolroad:




 
A tour around Gent:


----------



## Wimpie

Thermo said:


> Take this (tourist sign) as example.
> A dirty old sign, but it's not replaced "because you can still read it"... It gives the whole road an outdated look. I know this sign and today it looks even worse. But nobody thinks of replacing it...



These signs will be replaced in the future once the new design has been chosen out of a whole bunch people sent in 
However, signs that were in really bad condition have been replaced in the past in the same design but according to the techniques of the new Standaardbestek.



Karnoit said:


> It is. Between 00.30 and 05.30 except during harsh winter and in dangerous area. Now if you're so cocky that you can't admit that Wallonia may sometimes take good decisions and make use of it before Flanders I can't help you.


Erm, if I'm not mistaken we were the first ones to do that years ago. Wallonia followed our example on this one.
I really wish there was something good to say about Wallonia but there isn't, so I'm sorry but I can't.


----------



## Spookvlieger

@ 1:50 in you first vid a pre-war car daviedoff 
Like the vid of the tipical Belgian concrete main road


----------



## Tchek

Wimpie said:


> I really wish there was something good to say about Wallonia but there isn't, so I'm sorry but I can't.


See, we in Wallonia are used to get that kind of comment by our northern "neighbour", yet *we* wallonians are supposed to be the disrespectful, disdainful ones.


----------



## Glodenox

Walloons have never appeared disrespectful to me. Only the french-speaking (mostly non-Walloons) that come to settle in Flanders and refuse to speak even the most basic Dutch in my own town are disrespectful.

I'd hereby like to apologise for the Flemish who can't see the difference there. Usually they're the kind of people who live so far away from the problem that they don't know what's going on over here, but still have a very strong opinion about it. Everybody I know who lives nearby has the same opinion as me: Walloons themselves are a very friendly people, which we hope we are as well, but those who settle here and refuse to adapt, they're the problem of the whole situation. Sadly enough the politicians reacted very slowly against that, resulting in some of the problems we have today (most are actually just problems for politicians since they'd be losing votes in certain areas).

There's plenty of good to be said about Wallonia. But positive news doesn't make good news (for TV and radio stations), so we don't get to hear too much about that...

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Wimpie

Tchek said:


> See, we in Wallonia are used to get that kind of comment by our northern "neighbour", yet *we* wallonians are supposed to be the disrespectful, disdainful ones.


I understand your point of view and I always wish to talk about it in a constructive way, like we always did. Unfortunately your politicians haven't been very constructive for the past four years so yeah, it's logic that we're keeping our leg stiff.
We're still all Belgians, but we're so different and I think that's what making our country so special.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ Belgium is certainly interesting. And Walloon roads aren't that bad, they're better than roads in Somalia.

Wallonia has lots of nice things and places as does Flanders


----------



## Road_UK

Wimpie said:


> I understand your point of view and I always wish to talk about it in a constructive way, like we always did. Unfortunately your politicians haven't been very constructive for the past four years so yeah, it's logic that we're keeping our leg stiff.
> We're still all Belgians, but we're so different and I think that's what making our country so special.


Why can't you all grow up and be a bit more like Switzerland? You might - who knows - even have a government then..


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^As an interested but neutral observer, I have to say I see plenty of unconstructive politicians on both sides. And the whole mess is facilitated by a system where - what, 7, 8? - parties have to agree on anything and where all of the parties are regionalized (so no Flemish party needs to care about francophone voters and vice versa). 

The whole thing's a case study in why proportional representation is not always an ideal way to elect a legislature. It would be completely anomalous, just from a point of view of democratic legitimacy, if a party that represents 15% of the voters got the country to break up, but I hope that's not the N-VA's endgame.

And that's all I'm saying.
Now, anything new in roads? Or pretty pictures?
:cheers:


----------



## Wover

Road_UK said:


> Why can't you all grow up and be a bit more like Switzerland? You might - who knows - even have a government then..


The thing is that on the Flemish side there's a big voice for a Switzerland-like system with most power centered in the regions. But the Wallonian side is afraid that that will eventually tear apart the country, resulting in financial losses for them.

I know a few Wallonians and they're also pissed off about their politicians...


----------



## Thermo

Wover said:


> The thing is that on the Flemish side there's a big voice for a Switzerland-like system with most power centered in the regions. But the Wallonian side is afraid that that will eventually tear apart the country, resulting in financial losses for them.


Excellent explanation of the whole 'crisis'.


----------



## Wimpie

Road_UK said:


> Why can't you all grow up and be a bit more like Switzerland? You might - who knows - even have a government then..


Belgium is already a federal state where most of the power has been alocated to the states. We even changed our constitution for that in 1992, it has been signed by the king of Belgium as well.
It's the last federal bit (our social security) that's causing all the problems.
What Flanders is asking now is to take this reform of state to the next level and evolve to a confederal system where there's no federal level anymore.

The problem is not just Wallonia vs Flanders but more important, Right vs Left. The biggest party in the south is the Socialists Party with 30% of all votes (they've been the biggest party for years and have representatives in every political layer).
In the north the biggest party is the N-VA or the New Flemish Alliance. In the last elections they came out with nearly 30% of the votes as well (altough they would win today with 40% of all votes).
Both party's differ radically and so do our states.


----------



## Thermo

Wimpie said:


> What Flanders is asking now is to take this reform of state to the next level and evolve to a confederal system where there's no federal level anymore.


That's not entirely correct. There will still be a federal level (responsible for parts of social security, public safety (police), justice and defense).


----------



## Road_UK

Is the tax system on a federal basis?


----------



## Penn's Woods

All right, I have a _roads-related_ Belgian federalism question (well, a couple of questions actually): I know the roads are a regional responsibility, but the numbering system is national (N-roads don't change numbers at the regional borders, numbers used in one region won't also be used elsewhere unless it's the same road crossing the line....) How is that coordinated? I assume that the numbering system was established by the central government before the roads were regionalized, but how is the unified system maintained?

Also, I get more information about Belgium in French than in Dutch, and as far as I can tell, francophones are in the habit of calling N-roads "national" rather than "regional" ("la nationale 5," for example). I assume this is mostly a matter of people using the terms they're used to.
I'm curious whether Flemings do the same: in casual conversation, how'd you refer to the N16 - "Rijksweg 16"? And do non-roadgeeks in casual conversation talk about "gewestwegen" or "nationale wegen" or what?


----------



## Wimpie

^^
We usually talk about gewestwegen, rijkswegen or steenwegen. About the numbering system, if you go into it more you will see that it is very logic, it came into effect in 1986. In those days Belgium only had 9 provinces and wasn't a real federal state yet.
There's an article on the Dutch wikipedia which explains it all.



Thermo said:


> That's not entirely correct. There will still be a federal level (responsible for parts of social security, public safety (police), justice and defense).


The intention always has been to transfer those matters to the states as well


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Belgium at least still has a logically numbered main non-motorway system. The Netherlands doesn't have that, there is no N1, N4 or N16 in the Netherlands. There are only motorways or very low capacity provincial roads with 3-digit numbers. Only a few 1- and 2-digit numbers remain and most of them are less than 30 kilometers long.


----------



## Rudolf der Rare

I love Belgium Motorways, there is some arctic touch to it, it never gets dark :lol:


----------



## -Pino-

CNGL said:


> Well, in Spain is even worse: Apart that our regular roads almost always have 3 or 4 digits, we have a nice set of lots of prefixes for our motorways, in order to keep their numbers on 2 digits, since the A followed by 3 or 4 digits are used in some regions as regular roads!


In the Spanish national road numbering (AP, A and N), there is definitely a pattern in which higher numbers are of lower priority.
- 1 to 9: main radiales from Madrid, main coastal routes
- 10 to 99: national motorways of lower importance
- 100 to 699: non-motorways only

When it comes to regional motorways, you indeed see some strange high numbers. Not sure what pushes these regions.


----------



## Daviedoff

E403 freeway from Brugge to Kortrijk:




 
National road N8 from Ieper to Veurne:


----------



## Spookvlieger

E403 seems pretty busy, was it rush hour?
It also seriously needs repavement, and fast! And It wouldn't hurt to give it an extra lane to near Bruges judging the traffic... Nicely done video's once again!


----------



## Daviedoff

^^
The video is taped just before rush-hour, around 3.30, 4pm...
And indeed, it can be quite busy there. The worst part is the end nearby Bruges, the part you see in the beginning. In morning rush-hour, there's always a traffic jam (some kilometres) before the trafficlights of the "Chartreuzeweg". And I agree also with you that some parts have a bad pavement.


----------



## Wimpie

-Pino- said:


> .
> 
> The complication about 3-digit route numbers is that motorists can easily handle one or two during their journey, but not a full flurry of them. Throughout the World, you don't need to. The main chunk of every journey, over a country's main roads, are on routes with numbers below 100.



Well the advantage of E-numbers is that it's a route that runs over multiple freeways which would otherwise have their own number. If I want to to go Amsterdam I only have to remember 1 number.


----------



## Road_UK

Wimpie said:


> Well the advantage of E-numbers is that it's a route that runs over multiple freeways which would otherwise have their own number. If I want to to go Amsterdam I only have to remember 1 number.


Read the damn posts. E19 all the way is not the route to take.


----------



## -Pino-

^^ Now if that was the only international route on which the E-number pointed you in the wrong direction. But it isn't. Apart from that, there is no "multiple freeway" argument to be had for the E313s, the E314s and other one-motorway E-routes that Belgium has. Worse, en route from Brussels to Arlon you would be worse off with E-numbers in comparison with national routes. By the way, if you just want to follow E19 shields on your way from Brussels to Amsterdam, you'd get stuck at Antwerp. Once you make it into the Ring, they just stop signposting E19.

Again, if E-numbering is so great, why doesn't any of Belgium's neighbours with comparable motorway networks use it as the primary form of road numbering?


----------



## Wimpie

^^
We took a decision that our neighbourse didn't have the courage for. That's the best explanation. It's not our problem that the E-routing system isn't well signed in those countries, it's theirs.



Road_UK said:


> Read the damn posts. E19 all the way is not the route to take.


I took the E19 and arrived on my destination within the foreseen time. It might not be the ultimate route but it is good enough for me.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wimpie said:


> ^^
> We took a decision that our neighbourse didn't have the courage for. That's the best explanation. It's not our problem that the E-routing system isn't well signed in those countries, it's theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> I took the E19 and arrived on my destination within the foreseen time. It might not be the ultimate route but it is good enough for me.


As far as I can tell from this distance (most European signage I see is on the Internet) your neighbors *do* sign the E-route system well. But they sign their domestic systems too. Which makes more sense to me. (Since all maps I've ever seen of Belgium show the A-numbers, and since you'd still need to post, for example, the little bit of the A10 into Ostend that doesn't have an E-number...)


----------



## Glodenox

Wait. First the argument is that the numbers should be smaller and now the argument becomes that there should be several numbers signed at the motorways :crazy:

I don't know any facts as to how the numbering came to be, but it's working very well for us, so there's no need to change things around. Almost all our motorways completely overlap with the E-routes as far as I'm aware - unlike in most other countries, which makes it completely painless to have our numbering system this way.

EDIT: Wasn't aware of the situation at the E40/A10.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Penn's Woods

> First the argument is that the numbers should be smaller and now the argument becomes that there should be several numbers signed at the motorways


Different arguments from different people, silly.  And mine's less an argument than an observation.

The A10 between Jabbeke and Ostend doesn't have an E-number; neither do the A12 or the A19.... (Really, why do I know these things?!)


----------



## Glodenox

Penn's Woods said:


> The A10 between Jabbeke and Ostend doesn't have an E-number; neither do the A12 or the A19.... (Really, why do I know these things?!)


The A12 is referred to as A12, just like the A19. As long as a motorway completely overlaps with an E-number or doesn't overlap at all, there's no big issue. So far, the A10 is the only "problematic" one, although I seem to remember that the main road just follows the E-route and signs the exit as A10. I agree, it may be a bit odd to see for foreigners, but I don't think it is a confusing situation.

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## -Pino-

^^ The A10 east of Groot-Bijgaarden does not have an E-number either, as E40 is routed over the R0. The A25 South of Cheratte has a similar problem. But then again, those are simply TOTSOs and not something that creates any issues other than that. It just places some (IMO useful) remarks with respect to the supposed advantage that E-numbering saves having to follow multiple route numbers.

With respect to the courage that Wimpie refers to, I would say that it is the other way around. Throughout Western Europe, E-numbering preceded national motorway numbering. The other countries took a decision while Belgium sat on its hands. Indeed, complete lack of courage ...


----------



## Daviedoff

Yesterday I've made a trip to the Ardennes, and made a few vids.

1. The national road N4, a typical Belgian expressroad. Before the E411 was completely build this was the main route from Namur to Luxembourg. Now you'll see the section Courrière (junction E411) to Tenneville, I'm planning also the part Tenneville - Bastogne - Arlon to do. For me, this is one of the most beautiful road in Belgium!
part 1:




 
part 2:




 
2. E25 Luxembourg to Liège, the section Baraque de Fraiture - Aywaille.




 

There are also some photos:
E411 Beez (Namur)

E25 Baraque de Fraiture and Aywaille-Remouchamps

Liège: A602 and trainstation Guillemins


----------



## Spookvlieger

N4 indeed a nice road to drive, a shame about the pavement in some places....
E25 with that part of new pavement looking good!

Great pics to! Guillemins is really nice! You might as wel post them the pics about the highway here in this thread because otherwise people won't bother watching them 

E25 bridge in your pics, I think that it's ugly bridge!
That last pic of the E411 are that cobble stones coming through the pavement?


----------



## Thermo

The N-roads through the Ardennes are in such a bad shape! hno:


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Have you watched that vid of the N8? I feel ashamed that even in Flanders there are roads that look like that.


----------



## Thermo

joshsam said:


> ^^Have you watched that vid of the N8? I feel ashamed that even in Flanders there are roads that look like that.


Totally agree.


----------



## Wimpie

Yeah the N8 is indeed a disgrace, and to think we have only a bunch of NIMBY's to blame.


----------



## Road_UK

E34 is a disgrace. And this morning at 7am I drove on the E314 coming out of Germany/Holland on my way to Gent. Wanted to go via Brussels, but matrix signs warned about an accident with queues and gave the travel advice to go via Antwerp instead. So I jumped on the E313 and ended up in traffic jams at Herentals and on the E17 at St Niklaas due to roadworks. I hate driving in Belgium. All you want after a day and night spinning through Italy, Austria, Germany and 30 km of Holland.


----------



## keokiracer

^^ I think it means
"I can't see the pics"

And neither can I...


----------



## -Pino-

No, it was Belgian-French for "I can't post the pics". Which probably explains why you cannot see any pics ...


----------



## Daviedoff

3 new vids:

1. R9 Charleroi (petite ceinture), a unique one-way freeway!




 
2. N97 "Route Charlemagne" from Dinant to Ciney (junction N4)




 
3. E42 St-Vith (border crossing Germany into Belgium at Steinebruck) to Verviers (Interchange Battice E42xE40) in 2 parts. I've skipped the part Malmedy - Francorchamps due to roadworks and traffic jam.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Great vids! E42 is a really a nice Highway to drive!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The first shoulder running of Belgium went into operation today on the E313 on the east side of Antwerpen. Traffic is a chaos nonetheless due to a severe accident on the northbound E19. The shoulder running will add a 4th outbound lane on E313, so the Ring Road R1 can empty quicker. 

I personally doubt if it would have a lot of effect, the whole Antwerpen is usually gridlocked, and an 8 km long peak lane is not going to solve much. The entire road network needs to be expanded. E313 needs to be widened to 2x4 lanes to Ranst, and 2x3 to Lummen. A second ring road is also needed to relieve R1, the busiest road in the Benelux. E19 needs to be widened to 2x3 and an additional Schelde River crossing is necessary (Oosterweel connection). 

They have the masterplan Antwerpen for this. Hopefully it will become a reality soon, because this was already necessary 15 years ago.


----------



## keokiracer

ChrisZwolle said:


> A second ring road is also needed to relieve R1, the busiest road in the Benelux.


180.000 vehicles drive over that road every day, which might be the biggest in Belgium and Luxemburg, but not for The Netherlands (for instance the A16, Rotterdam: 230.000 on 6 lanes and A20 Rotterdam: 184.000 on 3 lanes), but you know that too 


> They have the masterplan Antwerpen for this. Hopefully it will become a reality soon, because this was already necessary 15 years ago.


Fully agreed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is some confusion about the traffic counts on the R1.

A 2007 full report gives about 180.000 vehicles per day on R1. However, the media reported in 2011 the volumes were much higher, at some 280.000 vehicles per day. I can't find it right now, but I had my doubts about these counts of 280.000 vehicles, considering the highway capacity on R1. It's unlikely but not impossible. However, it doesn't match with earlier reports, traffic counts don't soar from 180.000 to 280.000 vehicles in 4 years.


----------



## keokiracer

^^ Do you have a source?
I want to check it out myself. 

It's not that I don't trust you, I just want to see things myself


----------



## Daviedoff

ChrisZwolle said:


> I personally doubt if it would have a lot of effect, the whole Antwerpen is usually gridlocked, and an 8 km long peak lane is not going to solve much.


I think it's gonna have more effect than you think, because a major reason for the traffic jam at the R1 to Breda is caused by congestion problems at the beginning of the E313-E34, so an extra lane will certainly help I think!

I've made a video of that section, it's uploading now...


----------



## Daviedoff

^^
The video:




 
The project isn't completely finished yet, in the next few weeks they gonna place the rest of the signalisation and then the signs will also show speed limits.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Great you have that on video!

Don't forget to post your splended vid about the E40 to


----------



## Godius

Is it safe to have a line of trees right next to road? I think it is not so safe, and are there emergency exits?


----------



## Daviedoff

joshsam said:


> Don't forget to post your splended vid about the E40 to







Route in Gmaps


----------



## keokiracer

^^ Close call at 3:08
Nice vid


----------



## Gereke

The stripes on the road are much better then the ones we use here in The Netherlands with shoulder running. I think more people will use the shoulder with these kind of stripes.


----------



## Penn's Woods

From the "Suffixes" thread:



aswnl said:


> Dutch suffixes
> 
> -baan (Utrechtsebaan)
> -boulevard (Europaboulevard)
> -dreef (Zamenhofdreef)
> -ring (Asserring)
> -weg (Grotenhuysweg)
> -rijweg (Oostzanerrijweg)
> -straatweg/steenweg (Amsterdamsestraatweg; _steenweg_ is Flemish)
> -straat (Dorpsstraat)
> -laan (Gorslaan)
> -singel (Noordsingel)
> -dijk (Zeedijk)
> -wal (Oudezijds Voorburgwal)
> -oever (Oostoever)
> -sloot (Binnenwatersloot)
> -gracht (Prinsengracht)
> -sluis (Kikkerbilsluis)
> -kade/kaai (Prins Hendrikkade; _kaai_ is Flemish)
> -schans (Oudeschans)
> -einde (Noordeinde)
> -tuin(en) (Haarlemmerhouttuinen)
> -park (Moreelsepark)
> -plein (Rembrandtsplein)
> -markt (Nieuwmarkt)
> -hof (Prinsenhof)
> -steeg (Klaversteeg)
> -pad (Zandpad)
> 
> Above that since the 1960-ies there are new neighbourhoods with a theme. For instance that all streets in that area are called after types of mills, and therefore the suffix is –molen. The same with flowers (-bloem), forests (-bos), herbs (-kruid), plants (-blad, -gras, -mos, -varen, etc). Also some new types of suffixes only exists in newtowns, like: -steen, -gilde, -meer, -land, -weide, -veld, -hoeve, -borg/borch, -kamp/camp, -stede, -spoor, -poort, -erf, -water, -muur, -gaarde/gaerde, -hage/haage/haege, -weide, etc. etc.
> 
> It can even be worse; just names of birds, boats, plants and so on.


Now about the "steenweg is Flemish": I'd noticed that on maps, and likewise you see "chaussée" in francophone Belgium, but not in France. Many, many Belgian towns have a series of steenwegen/chaussées radiating out of them, named after the next city down the road* Did someone at some point - the Austrians, or the early Belgian government... - set out to develop a systematic network of intercity roads?

*You can find the same phenomenon in parts of the United States. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, a town of a few thousand people (but which is a county seat and commercial center for a farming area...site of a famous battle of the U.S. Civil War, which happened mostly because the two armies, or a raiding party of the Confederate army that was searching the countryside for things they needed bumped into the Union army, thanks to the road network) has a good dozen radiating roads with names like Baltimore Pike, Hanover Road, York Road...all named after the towns they lead to.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ The latter bit is common though, isn't it? At least in Europe it is


----------



## Penn's Woods

DanielFigFoz said:


> ^^ The latter bit is common though, isn't it? At least in Europe it is


You mean the naming-things-after-the-next-town-down bit? In the U.S., it's more noticeable, and very systematic in some places, in the east than it is elsewhere. (Gettysburg has about ten of them: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39.831477,-77.232685&spn=0.073558,0.132008&t=m&z=13&vpsrc=6 .) 

What stands out in French-speaking Belgium is the choice of the word "chaussée" for all these roads, because I've never seen it in France. And aswnl said that its Dutch-language equivalent, "steenweg," is Flemish, which I took to mean not used in the Netherlands. In Brussels, where both languages are used, a road that is a chaussée in French will be a steenweg in Dutch. So I'm wondering if there was a systematic development of such roads and "chaussée/steenweg" was the preferred term for those roads in particular.


----------



## Wimpie

The "steenwegen" are the original equivalents of the US Highways. In the spoken language the term is used in the same context as "highway" as well.
I don't think there really was a systematic plan, it only turned out to be.
In the beginning of the 20th century the Belgian government wanted to profile itself as the first nation in mainland Europe with a high quality roadnetwork for automotive traffic. Roads back then were built like railways, as straight as a line where possible. It was easy to that back in those days as our country wasn't as densily built as it is today. 
Steenwegen that connected cities were named after the city they were going to, the later secondary steenwegen were named also named after smaller that they, again, led to.

Considering the suffixes, Belgian streetnames are usually older than the Dutch ones and thus tend to use older suffixes or often none at all.
Especially within the village/town/city-centers one can find rather original streetnames that sound remarkable in Dutch ears. One example is the "Blijde Inkomststraat".

Another remarkble thing in Belgium is the habbit of naming tunnels, streets or square's after an American president. Even more remarkble is that the majority of them are named after a democratic presidents.

Here's a list and evidently the democratic one has more hits.


----------



## -Pino-

Kennedy and Roosevelt making up the vast majority is not something uniquely Belgian. I think that applies throughout Western Europe. 

But I've got a feeling that political colour has not been relevant in the split. Roosevelt happened to be Democrat, but was above all a president that came to Europe's rescue in WW2. For understandable reasons, you come across his name less often in Germany and Austria.. Why Kennedy? I suspect that he was the "right man in the right era" - a combination of his untimely death and the fact that it occurred in an era in which many infrastructure needed a name ...


----------



## sotonsi

It's no surprise - JFK was assassinated at a time when news did travel around the world and at the was the leader of the West at the height of the Cold War, so naming stuff after him in order to declare solidarity with them isn't a problem. FDR, Truman and Eisenhower are linked to WW2 (Eisenhower would have stuff named after him due to him being General Eisenhower, rather than President Eisenhower), and Wilson to WW1. Hoover's one that stands out as a bit bizarre in the number of things named after him.


----------



## Wimpie

Througout the years I made a couple of video's of Belgian roadways, I'll group them together.


----------



## Daviedoff

A video of the short A28 (3 km) and N81 from Aubange to Arlon (junction E25-E411). I have no idea the A28 will be completed in the future...


----------



## aswnl

Daviedoff said:


> 1. R9 Charleroi (petite ceinture), a unique one-way freeway!


Perhaps an idea to use it once a year as F1-circuit ?
Charleroi could use some attractive events...


----------



## Wimpie

I don't think that'll work out. It wouldn't be long, nor challenging enough for F1-races.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

hundreds of thousands of people watch cars driving monotonous oval laps at the Indianapolis 500, so I guess Charleroi is possible too


----------



## Wimpie

Yeah but then we're talking about Nascar, last time I checked that sport wasn't that popular in Belgium/Europe. 
But imagine if it was and the R9 could indeed be used as a speedway/Nascar circuit, were is the crowd going to be?


----------



## DSzumaher

Tour de Wallonie in 6 stages. 

Stage 1 in Ardennes
Compare to daviedoff's vid:
- with Malmedy-Francorchamps section;
- without Verviers-Battice section.





Stage 2 around Liège





Stage 3 to Namur





Stage 4 around Namur





Stage 5 across Ardennes again





Final stage to Luxembourgish border





End of the "race" .


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Great job!


----------



## Daviedoff

^^ I agree with that.
The E42 Liège - Namur is very old-fashioned at some parts, with the noisy old concrete pavement (the noise is like a sort of whistle-tone) and you'll see some remainings of the old Belgian roadmarking style.


----------



## Wimpie

Another important aspect of our roadways and its traffic are the emergency service, I found this video which shows most of them


----------



## Road_UK

Daviedoff said:


> ^^ I agree with that.
> The E42 Liège - Namur is very old-fashioned at some parts, with the noisy old concrete pavement (the noise is like a sort of whistle-tone) and you'll see some remainings of the old Belgian roadmarking style.


Yes, I had the misfortune of having to drive from Calais back home to Austria two weeks ago using E42 (Lille-Liege-Aachen) - and I only did it to avoid congestion at Brussels. I should have stuck with congestion. 

Having driven a lot in Belgium lately, I see no difference in most of their roads between now and five years ago. In all of Belgium they are some reasonable roads, and some real ugly ones - just like before. And it's not just on the Walloon side!


----------



## Thermo

Works on the E19 Antwerp-Mechelen finished.


----------



## Wimpie

Road_UK said:


> Yes, I had the misfortune of having to drive from Calais back home to Austria two weeks ago using E42 (Lille-Liege-Aachen) - and I only did it to avoid congestion at Brussels. I should have stuck with congestion.
> 
> Having driven a lot in Belgium lately, I see no difference in most of their roads between now and five years ago. In all of Belgium they are some reasonable roads, and some real ugly ones - just like before. And it's not just on the Walloon side!



On the Flemish side there should be a huge difference with the situation 5 years ago. Alot of freeways have been renovated or are under renovation.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Wimpie said:


> Another important aspect of our roadways and its traffic are the emergency service, I found this video which shows most of them


Gotta love immigrant neighborhoods in our Capital


----------



## Daviedoff

E19 from Antwerpen (Kleine Bareel) to Breda (border crossing B-NL at Hazeldonk). You'll see a long traffic jam in the opposite direction, this is caused by roadworks. At 2.08 a minivan tries to turn back trough the median:


----------



## Wimpie

Well made that video, I always love to see roadworks caught on camera


----------



## Wimpie

Update on the roadworks at the E313 & E314 interchange. The project is entering its last phase and the last bridges and curves will be placed and finished between 28/10 and 2/11. Traffic going into all directions is adviced to evade unnecessary ussage of the interchange. Emergency escaped routes will be signed for the duration of the roadworks
The last 2 temporarily bridges will be demolished and replaced by their permanent successors. Their taluds will also be adjusted to the new bridges.
When the bridges are in place, new pavement will be placed on all the bridges and roads on the interchange. During the winter another contractor will replace the old Belgian public lighting with newer high pressure sodium models. In the beginning of 2012 when the winter weather is over the pavement of both the E314 & E313 will be renewed up to the already renewed sections in the vacinity of the interchange. That involves a few km's in the direction of Hasselt & Antwerp on the E313, a few km's on the E314 in the direction of the Netherlands and several km's in the direction of Leuven (up to the provincial border with Vlaams-Brabant).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Viaduct replacement is currently underway at interchange Lummen (E313/E314)


----------



## Wimpie

More pictures


----------



## Daviedoff

This afternoon, I've also visited the roadworks at interchange Lummen, and I've took some pictures:

https://picasaweb.google.com/goda1979/Lummen30okt#


----------



## Wimpie

Nice, I planned to go as well but something else came up


----------



## Daviedoff

The E313 freeway from Antwerpen to Lummen (interchange E313xE314):
Route in Google Maps


----------



## Suburbanist

*Incomplete network around La Louvière, Mons and Charleroi*

One of the most important urban axes of Belgium has a rather incomplete network.

While Charleroi have a proper ring road and even a one-way downtown circle expressway, La Louvière and Mons don't have any. 

So I was thinking: are there credible projects to bring these cities up to proper standards by:

(1) completing R5 around Mons

(2) linking the N65 expressway southern terminus in La Louvière with R3 Charleroi?

(3) eiher building a southern link Charleroi-Namur (E411) or a eastern bypass of Namur?


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^I don't think there is any money for such things. Not in Flanders, nor in Wallonia. Keeping the current network in proper condition seems to be hard enough...

Mons only has 90.000 inhabitants, I don't think such big project is needed.
It's like saying Mechelen needs an outer ringroad...while both have an inner ringroad.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

City propers are not a good measurement in terms of population in Belgium. The area around Mons is heavily urbanized with small / medium towns. 

However, I think it's more important to reduce the reliance of all of Flanders on the R0 and R1 ring roads. If something happens there the entire region is gridlocked.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Thet should widen them both or build alternatives !


----------



## Wimpie

Suburbanist said:


> One of the most important urban axes of Belgium has a rather incomplete network.
> 
> While Charleroi have a proper ring road and even a one-way downtown circle expressway, La Louvière and Mons don't have any.
> 
> So I was thinking: are there credible projects to bring these cities up to proper standards by:
> 
> (1) completing R5 around Mons
> 
> (2) linking the N65 expressway southern terminus in La Louvière with R3 Charleroi?
> 
> (3) eiher building a southern link Charleroi-Namur (E411) or a eastern bypass of Namur?



The most important urban axe in Belgium is the Flemish diamond with 5 million inhabitants.
Considering the economic situation in Wallonia, such big projections to improve the roadwork aren't really needed. And even if the Wallonian government would want to, they don't have the money for it at the moment. Like Chrisz & Josham said in their comments, Flanders could use such improvements much more. The way things are going now, most of the important missing links will be built by 2015 and major incomplete network connections should be finished by 2020.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> And even if the Wallonian government would want to, they don't have the money for it at the moment.


So motorways in Belgium are financed by the regions, and not by the federal government?


----------



## Daviedoff

^^ Indeed, it is!


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Unfortunately, Belgium is very disorganized in that aspect, and even routes of national importance don't have a central planning. Thank God the network was built for most of it before regionalism-fueled brinkmanship would have made the network completion impossible, and people would be travelling from Liége to Luxembourg still on non-grade separated 2x4 routes in the Ardnees


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Like there is much traffic from Liège or Namur to Luxemburg?  South of the urbanised part of Wallonia along the Meuse, traffic on highways is very low. Not to mention that that across the ardennes there are plenty of 2X2 expressways where 120km/h is allowed.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ There are important medium cities there, just because they are in the mountains doesn't mean they don't need highways (on the contrary): Bastgone, Neautchateaux, Dinant and Marche-en-Famenne - the latter doesn't even have a highway connection at all.

Cities in mountainous areas need more highways because the normal roads are twisting and slower than they would be in the lowlands of northern Belgium. Train lines are also slower and few in between, the Ardenees are shortchanged in terms of transportation IMO. 

In any case, at least a W/S ringroad in Liège, arguably the third most important Belgian city and a major industrial center, should be built!


----------



## Glodenox

Well, in Mechelen, a bit of outer ringroad exists and is being improved: the R6 to the north of Mechelen. It is now finally being converted to a traffic-light free road. The R6 has several fatal accidents each year, but the mayor of Mechelen has been against the change, because then the view to the cathedral of Mechelen would be blocked from that road. So basically, he valued the sight of the cathedral from 3km away more important than the lives of several people :nuts:

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^I agree on Liège.

Marche en Famme as a whole district (Much bigger than march en famme) only has 50.000 inhabitants.

E411 highway is only 15 km away and there is a connection. More, the E4 runs next to it connecting it to Namur and Bastenaken and making a full connection with the E411 and E25, a 2x2 expressway with a speed limit of 120km/h. N63 , also a 2x2 expressway connects it to Liège. How can you say that small town is badly connected? 

Go take a look in Limburg and find bigger places that have much worse connections.


----------



## Ingenioren

joshsam said:


> ^^Like there is much traffic from Liège or Namur to Luxemburg?  South of the urbanised part of Wallonia along the Meuse, traffic on highways is very low. Not to mention that that across the ardennes there are plenty of 2X2 expressways where 120km/h is allowed.


The E25-E411 is congested towards Luxembourg, there was left space for widening in the median from Habay to the border like already done south from sortie 29 towards Arlon. I would also like to see E46 upgraded to motorway standard from France to Libramont aswell as continuing A28 from Aubange to Arlon and motorway Bouillon - Pétange.

I exit the E25 at Sortie 45 trough Theux to meet up with E42 at Sortie 7 to bypass Liège...


----------



## Wimpie

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, at least a W/S ringroad in Liège, arguably the third most important Belgian city and a major industrial center, should be built!


Luik no longer is a major industrial center! There are no major industrial company's in Luik that are still active. The industrial infrastructure that's located around the city has been out of use for years.
One thing Luik has is that it's an important inland port, has a HST-trainstation, a passenger airport and is a connection between Belgium and Germany.
The main industrial hub in Belgium is the port of Antwerp, the second biggest chemical hub in the world after the port of Texas.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Unfortunately, Belgium is very disorganized in that aspect, and even routes of national importance don't have a central planning. Thank God the network was built for most of it before regionalism-fueled brinkmanship would have made the network completion impossible, and people would be travelling from Liége to Luxembourg still on non-grade separated 2x4 routes in the Ardnees


Again wrong, the outlines of our national freeway network have been defined years ago. Besides that there's still a federal secretary of traffic and mobility to control the last few matters that need to be arranged at a federal level.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Wimpie said:


> Luik no longer is a major industrial center! There are no major industrial company's in Luik that are still active. The industrial infrastructure that's located around the city has been out of use for years.
> One thing Luik has is that it's an important inland port, has a HST-trainstation, a passenger airport and is a connection between Belgium and Germany.
> The main industrial hub in Belgium is the port of Antwerp, the second biggest chemical hub in the world after the port of Texas.


It's a sad story of Liège though, and now the last steel factory closed just a few weeks ago, putting another few hundred people workless hno:


----------



## Penn's Woods

delete please


----------



## ChrisZwolle

How about the heavy industry in the suburbs of Liège? As far as I know there are still mills in Seraing and FN weapons factory in Herstal.


----------



## Thermo

Karnoit said:


> That scrapyard is invaded by thousands of tourists from your country every holiday though. And unlike Road_Uk, nothing obliges them to come here.


Wallonia has the most beautiful landscapes in the whole benelux and has plenty of really beautiful villages. Yes, there are some 'bad' parts like Charleroi and the area around Liège (due to old industry), but you can find similar scenes in the UK for example.




> Anyway, federalisation does not date back from yesterday and road infrastructures are regional matters for a long time now. Each regions is responsible for the mental image foreigners have about the road networks. We all know why Wallonia roads are in bad shape (no money). If Flanders has a bad image according to foreigners driving through (and it seems so, although Road_Uk overeacts), then the one to blame is the flemish governent itself and not Wallonia.


Nobody is blaming Wallonia for bad roads in Flanders. But it has to be said: Belgian roads are worse than the ones in any neighbouring country. BUT finally the politicians in both Flanders and Wallonia have committed to renovate the whole network in the coming years. The budget for roads in Flanders has been tripled, and will stay at this level in the future. 



lambersart2005 said:


> what is wrong with all you belgium-haters? comments like the one above don't seem to be really constructive criticism... please, grow up and start to be a bit more open-minded!


Haters gonna hate...


----------



## Lebanese_Almaghrebia

Glodenox said:


> 130km/h doesn't seem like a great idea on most of our roads. There's just too many exits on most of them. There may be a select few cases where this would be acceptable (E34, E17 perhaps, E403 on some parts, and about a quarter of the motorways in Wallonia since the exits are much more separated - though the pavement quality must be up to standards for that as well).


If you drive on our highway, you will see that probably >50% drive faster than 120 km/h. 

http://www.9lives.be/forum/mobiliteit/795944-hoe-snel-rijden-jullie-op-de-autostrade.html

If you look at those results of that poll, you will see that a maximum speelimit of 130km/h is not a bad idea.


----------



## Wimpie

^^
It is not a bad idea at all, especially considering the fact that our first freeways were designed to be driven on without a speed limit. Most mid-class cars in the 60's didn't go much faster than 140 km/h anyway.


----------



## Glodenox

Lebanese_Almaghrebia said:


> If you drive on our highway, you will see that probably >50% drive faster than 120 km/h.
> 
> http://www.9lives.be/forum/mobiliteit/795944-hoe-snel-rijden-jullie-op-de-autostrade.html
> 
> If you look at those results of that poll, you will see that a maximum speelimit of 130km/h is not a bad idea.


And from the moment that people get used to driving 130 km/h, they'll start driving 140 km/h. We shouldn't raise the limits just because people drive faster than allowed, but limits should be raised when it is sensibly possible - and that is currently not really the case on many stretches.


----------



## keokiracer

^^ Nonsense: since the max speed in The Netherlands was raised on a few stretches as a test, the max speed on those stretches went up with only 3 km from approx. 113 km/h to approx. 116 km/h.


----------



## Glodenox

The average speed, you mean? I assume that's considering free-flowing traffic, but that would be lowered anyway due to the truck traffic. Couldn't it be that your data simply based on the speed of all vehicles, instead of just the cars that are actually allowed to drive that fast?

I have no data to support this, but I always assumed that the speed people will drive on average is mainly affected by two things: when fines are given and up until which point we feel safe. The fines are a given, the safety feeling is probably around 150 km/h, judging from the average speeds driven on German highways (again, no actual data there, just my general experience from twice driving there). So I'm assuming that when the limit is raised, people will raise their speed as well, until they hit one of the two limits.

Also, I'm not certain how long it'll take for people to get used to 130 km/h. It's been introduced for a while now in the Netherlands, but I'm not sure whether it has been long enough for the general public. Sure, the commuters have gotten used to it, but you only need a few cars that go slower to slow down the rest of the traffic.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Glodenox said:


> The average speed, you mean? I assume that's considering free-flowing traffic, but that would be lowered anyway due to the truck traffic. Couldn't it be that your data simply based on the speed of all vehicles, instead of just the cars that are actually allowed to drive that fast?


The data he means includes only passenger cars. So no trucks and buses. The V85 and average speed only went up by 3 or 4 km/h on most of the test sections.










For instance the A32. It was posted at 120 km/h. The average speed of passenger cars was 116.2 km/h. When they increased the speed limit to 130 km/h, the average speed went to 118.4 km/h, an increase of only 2.3 km/h. 

So there is no such thing that if you increase the limit by 10 km/h, traffic will go 10 km/h faster accordingly.


----------



## Glodenox

Weird, but good. The only question that remains then is whether or not this will also be the case in our country. But I do hope that research like this will be used to increase the speed on some sections, because you might wrongly be thinking that I'm against raising the limit from my previous posts


----------



## Comfortably Numb

Road_UK said:


> Nah because...:
> 
> 1: It's my European right to travel through scrapyards if I want to.
> 
> 2: My boss pays me to get to my destination on time.
> 
> 3: Your roads are not tax-free. A lot of it is funded by European money, which is also my money.


Dude, why do you constantly bash British and Belgian motorways?


----------



## Comfortably Numb

I love Belgium. I always thought of it as the best of France, the Netherlands and the UK in a blender. It's one of the friendliest countries I've been to on the continent and one of the less hostile towards English people. 

I liked what I saw of your motorways too. I hope to visit again.


----------



## Wimpie

^^

An American Professor in the social (or human) sciences once wrote an essay on that.

_What all Belgians have in common is a love for the "good life", which they find in their excellent food and drink, comfortable housing, reliable medical and social services, highly developed traffic and communications infrastructure. Belgians are not the type wanting to impress other people with their achievements, or to convince others of their righteousness. They tend to be rather reserved or introverted in their first contacts with other people, but are sincerely warm and friendly once you get to know them better. They are happy when they can enjoy a safe and comfortable life, together with their family and friends, and they put a high value on privacy. They have a clear aversion towards moralizing, towards telling other people how they should or should not behave (an attitude for which they critize their neighbours in Holland), and they take "live and and let live" as the basis for their philosophy. R. Hill, in a book on different European characters, describes the Belgians as "open-minded opportunists", noting their pragmatical attitude. _


----------



## Daviedoff

^^ A lot of things are true indeed...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Completely irrelevant to roads. What is this, the Belgian forum for social sciences?


----------



## Thermo

Wimpie said:


> ^^
> _They have a clear aversion towards moralizing, towards telling other people how they should or should not behave (an attitude for which they critize their neighbours in Holland)_,


==>



ChrisZwolle said:


> Completely irrelevant to roads. What is this, the Belgian forum for social sciences?


Point proven :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's right, the Dutch don't like offtopic


----------



## SeanT

So, we are lucky that it ain´t just a dutch forum!:lol:


----------



## Glodenox

Actually, I don't feel that it's completely off-topic since the way people think in a country has a decent effect on how they drive, including on highways  But I do think we best just stick to talking about the roads themselves, since that's much more interesting


----------



## Wimpie

^^

I think you're right, the differences between Belgium and the Netherlands are a good example of that. We might be bonded by language and history but generally we have a different vision on life and "how things need to be done".

The Dutch would say: "A problem exists from the moment it poses itself until it is solved".
The Belgians would way: "A problem exists from the moment it starts to get annoying".

If we pull that back to roads and general infrastructure, well, it explains everything


----------



## italystf

Wimpie said:


> ^^


You mean that this underpass (seems new) is too narrow? Maybe it's just an agricultural passage with no need to be upgraded in the future.



Wimpie said:


>


Those speed bumps exist in many urban areas in Europe, however I think they're annoying and pretty useless.



Wimpie said:


>


Thypical road sign mess common in roadworks expecially in Italy. Consequences: nobody pay attention to signs in roadworks area, even the few times they're useful and well-placed.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I don't think that is the speed bump but the position of the road before and then during the bump


----------



## italystf

DanielFigFoz said:


> I don't think that is the speed bump but the position of the road before and then during the bump


Yup, you're right. By the way the best example of Belgian road engineering is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCXY5ylV0r4&feature=player_embedded


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Yes, I've seen that before :lol:


----------



## Verso

Lebanese_Almaghrebia said:


> Hardly known anywhere in Europe? Are you serious? hno: Look to your country, the UK has some shitty roads aswell. Or look to Bulgaria, Romania, Slovenia,...


Slovenian motorways are definitely better than Belgian.


----------



## Lebanese_Almaghrebia

Verso said:


> Slovenian motorways are definitely better than Belgian.


No they are not better than the roads in Flanders + they are payed with our money. :lol: Slovenia is nothing compared to Flanders. Without the EU Slovenia is nothing.
http://www.money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=SI&year=2010

And as sad before our roads will be repaved in 2015. So we have 3x2 + lightning + many exits + every 40 km a gasstation + smooth roads. :cheers:


----------



## italystf

Verso said:


> Slovenian motorways are definitely better than Belgian.


Because they were mostly build in 2000s.


----------



## Glodenox

Please don't be insulted by his unjustifiable comparison. We've already had so many endless and almost useless discussions in here. I've never been in Slovenia, but from the looks of it on Google Maps, the highways you guys have seem to be pretty nice indeed


----------



## Lebanese_Almaghrebia

italystf said:


> Yup, you're right. By the way the best example of Belgian road engineering is this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCXY5ylV0r4&feature=player_embedded


That's Wallonia. hno: So I prefer to call it Walloon engineering because it's not a federal jurisdiction.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I'm not Belgian, but hno:

All this intra-European badmouthing, even intra-a-country-the-size-of-Maryland badmouthing. And people wonder why so many British (and not just British) are not enthusiastic about tighter integration, or at least skeptical that it would work.

On that note...:runaway:


----------



## Lebanese_Almaghrebia

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^I'm not Belgian, but hno:
> 
> All this intra-European badmouthing, even intra-a-country-the-size-of-Maryland badmouthing. And people wonder why so many British (and not just British) are not enthusiastic about tighter integration, or at least skeptical that it would work.
> 
> On that note...:runaway:


As you can read in my posts, I am very Eurosceptic.  I only want closer ties with countries that are at our level economically . (France, UK, Holland, Italy, Scandinavia and Germany) And have you ever been to Europe? The mentality differences are huge. Even in a country the size of Maryland. Flanders and Wallonia are just 2 different world's let alone Eastern Europa.


----------



## italystf

And I though that Italy was a "divided" country because of (only economic) differences between north and south.


----------



## Lebanese_Almaghrebia

italystf said:


> And I though that Italy was a "divided" country because of (only economic) differences between north and south.


We have economic differences + different languages ( Dutch & French) + mental differences + culturale differences ( not so big...) :cheers:


----------



## italystf

Lebanese_Almaghrebia said:


> We have economic differences + different languages ( Dutch & French) + mental differences + culturale differences ( not so big...) :cheers:


You're the only country in Europe were speaking a certain language in some public spaces like schools and municipal halls is forbidden by law even if both parts understand it.


----------



## hofburg

I came here after italystf mentioned there's stuff here to laugh about. indeed there is! and to add even something more, here is the trailer of the film 'Rien à declarer', good comedy about douanne cancelation between France and Belgique in 90's... 








italystf said:


> Because they were mostly build in 2000s.


motorways built in 70s-90s are in the same condition or even better than others. it's all the question of maintenance.


----------



## Verso

Lebanese_Almaghrebia said:


> No they are not better than the roads in Flanders + they are payed with our money. :lol: Slovenia is nothing compared to Flanders. Without the EU Slovenia is nothing.
> http://www.money-go-round.eu/Country.aspx?id=SI&year=2010


Now you're just trolling. Share of EU money is very low compared to all our motorways.



italystf said:


> Because they were mostly build in 2000s.


Slightly less than half were built in 2000s. But even our oldest motorways (from 1972 on) are much better than in Belgium, at least when I was there in 2005. I don't know why some Belgians are so upset when someone says Belgian motorways aren't good. It's a fact, at least for Western standards.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Lebanese_Almaghrebia said:


> As you can read in my posts, I am very Eurosceptic.  I only want closer ties with countries that are at our level economically . (France, UK, Holland, Italy, Scandinavia and Germany) And have you ever been to Europe? The mentality differences are huge. Even in a country the size of Maryland. Flanders and Wallonia are just 2 different world's let alone Eastern Europa.


That's sort of my point. I have been to Europe. I particularly like Belgium. I appreciate the sort of cultural diversity you have within close reach (even if it seems a lot of Europeans don't) and - while it's none of my business whether you integrate more closely or not - I wouldn't want to see unification proceed to the point where those differences are ironed out. (The "EU uniformity fetish" tag on one of the license-plate threads is mine.) Although sniping at one's neighbors is not perhaps the best way of showing appreciation for diversity. If you don't mind my saying so.


----------



## Lebanese_Almaghrebia

Verso said:


> Now you're just trolling. Share of EU money is very low compared to all our motorways.


If found you very funny. :lol: Where are the facts?


----------



## Road_UK

Belgians get really upset when someone makes comments on their country. This Arab guy above me keeps on making references to the differences between Flanders and Wallonia, which is nothing but Flemish propaganda Wimpie style, but then 10 times worse. In my opinion, Belgium is a Federal State, with EU membership - and is responible for their infrastructure nationwide. How they do it, is their own problem - same as the childish language wars. 

A little while back, I was travelling on the E17 from Lille into Belgium, heading towards Gent. The road surface was very smooth indeed, it was rather impressive. And just when I started thinking that I may have been a little premature, I got past Waregem, and gone where my illusions. That bit of road wasn't just bad... It was horrible, even for Belgian standards. E34 Antwerp - Venlo: Type of motorway unknown in Holland and France, and not even in the UK - and they got pretty bad roads. A lot of the National roads: Horrible. Does the N8 Veurne-Ieper ring a bell? These are all in Flanders. Stop blaming the Walloons, you are just as bad as each other.

All Belgians in this thread may now start crying again.


----------



## Thermo

Road_UK said:


> Belgians get really upset when someone makes comments on their country. This Arab guy above me keeps on making references to the differences between Flanders and Wallonia, which is nothing but Flemish propaganda Wimpie style, but then 10 times worse.


Are you suggesting there are no differences between Flanders and Wallonia? :nuts: So we just had 1,5 year political crisis just for fun? 

About our roads, I'll say it again: YES OUR ROADS ARE FAR WORSE THAN IN ANY NEIGHBOURING COUNTRY. EVEN IN FLANDERS! 

But finally we have politicians who are committed to do something about it in the coming years. Like I said: the budget for road maintenance has been tripled. There are like 150 different road works programmed for 2012 alone. What else can we do TODAY? Tell me.

ps: about the "flemish propaganda" concerning the difference between Flanders and Wallonia, here's a study of a Walloon university: http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/mediatheek_en/2.3815/1.1185640


----------



## LtBk

How much do Belgians pay for electricity on average?


----------



## Road_UK

Thermo said:


> Are you suggesting there are no differences between Flanders and Wallonia? :nuts: So we just had 1,5 year political crisis just for fun?
> 
> About our roads, I'll say it again: YES OUR ROADS ARE FAR WORSE THAN IN ANY NEIGHBOURING COUNTRY. EVEN IN FLANDERS!
> 
> But finally we have politicians who are committed to do something about it in the coming years. Like I said: the budget for road maintenance has been tripled. There are like 150 different road works programmed for 2012 alone. What else can we do TODAY? Tell me.
> 
> ps: about the "flemish propaganda" concerning the difference between Flanders and Wallonia, here's a study of a Walloon university: http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/mediatheek_en/2.3815/1.1185640


Do them up. At least you're man enough to admitt it. A lot of your fellow Belgians - especially the Flemish propaganda bloggers - believe that there is nothing wrong. I hope your government will do something about it. But a year ago the bloggers on this thread were saying the same thing, and that was when you had no government. 
This is the point I'm making: the state of denial. It could have been done a long long time ago. I can see changes, but not on a big scale. For some strange reason, the E40 between French border and Nieuwpoort has been resurfaced again, after two years. Why? Isn't it more important to focus on the E34?


----------



## Glodenox

Could it be one of the first motorway links between two countries without customs in the world? Considering the Benelux already existed since 1944, which meant that Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg belonged to a unified customs unit, this seems like a possibility to me.

Must've been a hell to get it finished in winter though. Or perhaps it was already finished, but not yet officially opened until that time...


----------



## Wimpie

Another set, taken around a year ago (except the first one). Today 60% of the roads seen on the pics have been renovated and/or extended.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wimpie said:


> Another set
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice pix!

One thing: this sign makes no sense to me. "Uitgezonderd plaatselijk verkeer" means "except local traffic," right?

So I'd take that as turn left except local traffic. But there are other towns straight ahead and to the right....


----------



## Glodenox

Basically, it's a road that may only be used for local traffic. It would be better to say "Enkel plaatselijk verkeer" (only local traffic). Basically, they copied the text of the subsign that is always used to describe such roads. You can see a temporary example of that sign in the first picture:









(Credit to Wimpie)
(I wonder why there's so many of them though...)

I've seen other advance signs like that, but there they added the circular sign along with subsign instead of just the text, which makes more sense as it is telling you that such a sign is located there. That's much like the signs of "max. 3 tons" or "dead end" being placed on advance signs. I don't have any pictures of that sign though.

EDIT: oh, this one actually shows it a bit, but it would be placed in the middle section of the advance sign:









(Credit to Wimpie)


----------



## Verso

^^ The last sign makes much more sense.


----------



## piotr71

*N8 December 2011*

N8 from French border to Brussel/Bruxelles.


----------



## piotr71

*N8*


----------



## piotr71




----------



## piotr71

This part of N8 can't be called perfect. I dare to say that N8 reflects all Belgian road network, which is mostly in very good condition now, comparing to its state let's say 10 years ago, however it still consists of about 10% extremaly bad stretches.


----------



## piotr71

*N8*





























































































































































































































































TBC


----------



## Wimpie

^^

Nice pics! I don't drive in that part of the country that much.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Some stretches look good, but others hno: I must say that I don't know a road in such bad state in Limburg where I live...But we don't have that much big roads either...


----------



## piotr71

The capital!


























































































That's it Ladies and Gentelmen. Happy New Year!


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Thanks a lot for the pics!


----------



## keokiracer

piotr71 said:


> That's it Ladies and Gentelmen. Happy New Year!


Thank you for the pics. Happy New Year to you too kay:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Interesting pictures!


----------



## ABRob

Daviedoff said:


> ^^
> http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/Wimpie25/E314/P040610_1230_01.jpg
> 
> Funny picture :lol:
> (This effect exist more on fotos taken from a car or train which is moving, I don't know what's the reason of this)


That happens mostly because of cheap cameras (in moblilephones) / bad optics (bad lenses).


----------



## GROBIN

DanielFigFoz said:


> Interesting pictures!


Especially this one  :



piotr71 said:


> *(...)*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *(...)*
> That's it Ladies and Gentelmen. Happy New Year!


Happy New Year to you all ! 

P.S.: @*piotr71* - Ladies here ? On the _Highways & Autobahns_ thread ? Where ? :lol:


----------



## keber

ABRob said:


> That happens mostly because of cheap cameras (in moblilephones) / bad optics (bad lenses).


Actually it can happen at very most expensive DSLR-s too. 

Lenses don't have any influence here. This is because of CMOS sensor in cameras, which records picture progressive, line by line. When picturing fast motion subject (like this fence from moving car), it can be titled because object already moved for some distance in the time between when first and last row were taken.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS_sensor#Disadvantages_of_CMOS_compared_to_CCD


----------



## Wimpie

My old collection of mostly rural pictures.



Spoiler


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Thx for the pics.

Video's I found:


----------



## Daviedoff

I have made a new video:


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Thanks a lot! I enjoyed watching  E40 looking smooth and clean


----------



## Suburbanist

Yesterday I drove in E40 and then I circled R0 almost entirely until the access to Zaventem Intl. Airport.

I was quite shocked by the state of the Bruxelles ring road in some sectors. I mean, some viaducts are not only old, but outright rusty or missing some protective elements so that you can even see some exposed columns!

Then, there is the whole language mess, which makes signage confusing at least, useless more likely to out-of-area drivers, as R0 crosses the "region border" 5 or 6 times, and then suddenly Mons becomes Bergen lol.

Then, there is the issue of the non-highway sector north of Waterloo, particularly this underpass  which has steep approach, narrow lanes and, frankly, is outright dangerous if iced/snowed. Why haven they not built an high overpass (viaduct) instead?

Now, some questions about R0 and adjacent roads:

1. Near this exit, E429 has traffic lights less than 1200m after interchange Halle. Are there any plans to build an overpass there, or a junction, or else? It is the worse possible design solution, which surely means traffic jams there.

2. From what I see in interhcange Itre, the only logical conclusion is that they have some plans to extend the highway westward towards. Where will this highway go in the future, and are there any schedule for its completion?

3. Here we can see partially built ramps off R0 into Bruxelles that are probably part of plans to create a decent junction there. Am I right?

Extra question: do they have plans to improve and speed up the Boulevard du Lambermont through Schaerberk as to create a fast-ish link between A12 and E40? I bet that area gets a lot of traffic with all the NATO, EU and else buildings over there.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Liège situation*

I drove thourgh Liège twice last week, in my way to (E40 => A604 => N63) and from (E25 S to E25 N) Luxembourg.

While Liège has some remarkable features, like interchange Loncin, is also has some problem caused mainly by the absence of an Eastern bypass. 

Crossing the area of Seraing was easy, just a couple traffic lights and that was all, but I bet that area gets very clogged with trucks on busier days due to the many heavy industries located in the area. N63 could also do with some improvements, maybe an upgrade to A-standards, but that is another story.

More problematic is the E25 gap. Sure enough, I could have stayed on A602 to Loncin then backtrack on E42 to Cheratte, but TomTom was telling me that would include 22min of delays, so it suggested the route I plotted on the above link via central Liège and Bressoux. While there are some interesting features, like many urban avenues grade-separated junctions not common in nearby countries (a plus), there were also problems. The pavement is in bad condition and, then, they reduced what was once a 2-lane expressway underpass to one lane only as in here, and on 3 similar locations throughout that Meuse riverbanks' expressway.


----------



## Spookvlieger

I guess Boulevard du Lambermont is still ok, traffic not to bad an pretty wide with 2x3lanes at some parts , there are worse boulevards in Brussels (like Avenue Charles Quint/Keizer Karel laan the first part wich is not tunneled, It gets better afther Koekelberg where it becomes the Leopold II laan) with a lot more conjestion. I don't think there are any plans for it.


----------



## Wimpie

Suburbanist said:


> Yesterday I drove in E40 and then I circled R0 almost entirely until the access to Zaventem Intl. Airport.
> 
> I was quite shocked by the state of the Bruxelles ring road in some sectors. I mean, some viaducts are not only old, but outright rusty or missing some protective elements so that you can even see some exposed columns!
> 
> Then, there is the whole language mess, which makes signage confusing at least, useless more likely to out-of-area drivers, as R0 crosses the "region border" 5 or 6 times, and then suddenly Mons becomes Bergen lol.
> 
> Then, there is the issue of the non-highway sector north of Waterloo, particularly this underpass  which has steep approach, narrow lanes and, frankly, is outright dangerous if iced/snowed. Why haven they not built an high overpass (viaduct) instead?
> 
> Now, some questions about R0 and adjacent roads:
> 
> 1. Near this exit, E429 has traffic lights less than 1200m after interchange Halle. Are there any plans to build an overpass there, or a junction, or else? It is the worse possible design solution, which surely means traffic jams there.
> 
> 2. From what I see in interhcange Itre, the only logical conclusion is that they have some plans to extend the highway westward towards. Where will this highway go in the future, and are there any schedule for its completion?
> 
> 3. Here we can see partially built ramps off R0 into Bruxelles that are probably part of plans to create a decent junction there. Am I right?
> 
> Extra question: do they have plans to improve and speed up the Boulevard du Lambermont through Schaerberk as to create a fast-ish link between A12 and E40? I bet that area gets a lot of traffic with all the NATO, EU and else buildings over there.


Are we talking about the same ringroad? The widest and most important and complete part which is also located nearest to the city lies almost entirely on Flemish territory and is well maintained. Only a small part belongs to Brussels and thus signage there is bilingual.
The souther part which is located much further of the city belongs indeed to Wallonia and is in quite a bad shape. So I don't see the problems, drivers always pass a part where signage is bilingual. So yes, some parts of the ringroad are a mess but that's due to the Walloon goverment and not the Brussels/Flemish goverment who have always maintained their sectors well.



> Extra question: do they have plans to improve and speed up the Boulevard du Lambermont through Schaerberk


:nono: 
"Boulevard du Lambermont" / "Lambermontlaan"
"Schaerberk" (?) --> Scha(a)(e)rbeek or "Schaarbeek/Schaerbeek"


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Are we going to have to use both versions of the name every time we mention a street or neighborhood in Brussels?


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Actually, yes. But I didn't too.  haha


----------



## ptscout

N62 from the Luxemburger Grenz through Grüfflingen to the E42.


----------



## Spookvlieger

markings look yellow in that vid  (are they? road works?)

Anyway nice vid! Love driving those roads, bending the curves.

edit: the where yellow indeed untill 1:57 in the vid. Good they are working on it. Hope they do the other bad parts too.


----------



## ptscout

Yes, provisionally marks. I think Ive seen worse roads in Wallonie (here the old: http://g.co/maps/r5mz6 - with 'Strassenschäden' sign. They also want a bypass here: http://n62.eu/N6211/index.php?Die_Zeit_ist_reif..._&nbsp;_&nbsp;oder_doch_noch_nicht?
The German Speaking Community must have an seperate state budget for that?!


----------



## Wimpie

^^

We often suspect that because the roads within the German language community often look tidier and better maintained 



Penn's Woods said:


> ^^Are we going to have to use both versions of the name every time we mention a street or neighborhood in Brussels?


Technically and legally yes, it's the only region in Belgium with a legal status of absolute bilinguality


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Bi-lingual means EITHER language, not BOTH languages, right?

I can call Bruxelles as so or as Brussel and both are mutually equivalents.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Wimpie said:


> ^^
> 
> We often suspect that because the roads within the German language community often look tidier and better maintained
> 
> 
> 
> Technically and legally yes, it's the only region in Belgium with a legal status of absolute bilinguality



Obviously, you don't know your own Constitution:

"Art. 30

Het gebruik van de in België gesproken talen is vrij; het kan niet worden geregeld dan door de wet en alleen voor handelingen van het openbaar gezag en voor gerechtszaken."

http://www.senate.be/doc/const_nl.html


----------



## Penn's Woods

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Bi-lingual means EITHER language, not BOTH languages, right?
> 
> I can call Bruxelles as so or as Brussel and both are mutually equivalents.


Of course it does. (See my preceding post.)
But in English it's "Brussels."


----------



## Suburbanist

Penn's Woods said:


> But in English it's "Brussels."


On my personal standards, I translate country names, but at least in areas of Europe using mainly Latin-derived alphabet, I stick to the original city name. I always found weird that some cities in Italian have English translations (Venice, Florence, Naples, Turin, Milan), and others don't. So I prefer to write München, Braunschweig, Lisboa, Köln, Bruxelles (or Brussel) etc.


----------



## Road_UK

Wimpie said:


> Are we talking about the same ringroad? The widest and most important and complete part which is also located nearest to the city lies almost entirely on Flemish territory and is well maintained. Only a small part belongs to Brussels and thus signage there is bilingual.
> The souther part which is located much further of the city belongs indeed to Wallonia and is in quite a bad shape. So I don't see the problems, drivers always pass a part where signage is bilingual. So yes, some parts of the ringroad are a mess but that's due to the Walloon goverment and not the Brussels/Flemish goverment who have always maintained their sectors well.
> 
> 
> 
> :nono:
> "Boulevard du Lambermont" / "Lambermontlaan"
> "Schaerberk" (?) --> Scha(a)(e)rbeek or "Schaarbeek/Schaerbeek"


Why are you always in denial? You know as much as anyone else, that some Flemish sections are as equally as bad as some Walloon ones. And some newly renovated Walloon motorways are as good as any newer Flemish ones.

A little while back I crossed the E17 border from Lille into Belgium, heading towards Antwerp. Right from the border, the road is in top condition. And I mean top top TOP condition. And just as I started thinking that I may have been a bit pre-mature about Belgian roads, I've hit Waregem. And all my illusions were gone. It really was like driving on a railroad. 
What I'm saying is, that everywhere in Belgium, there are good sections, there are bad sections. But overall, Belgium is (still) lacking behind to its western-European partners.

I never saw you making a comment about the E34 Antwerp-Eindhoven. Have you been on it?


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Um, well, native speakers of English have been calling Venice "Venice" (for example) for centuries....

Non-native speakers of English (or any other language) don't get to break rules they find "weird" and call it their "personal standards." Do what you want, but don't call it English, because it isn't: it's this grotesque pseudo-English Esperanto that Continentals insist on using because it's "easier" than learning their neighbors' languages.

(EDIT: Those arrows are for Suburbanist, obviously....)

Off topic, but while I'm on a tear -P), what do our Dutch friends think of this? http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/3184...ns-ophouden-met-dat-rare-Engels-van-ons.dhtml
And where does any non-native speaker get off (in the comments) saying that "American" is not "real English"?


----------



## lambersart2005

Wimpie said:


> Are we talking about the same ringroad? The widest and most important and complete part which is also located nearest to the city lies almost entirely on Flemish territory and is well maintained. Only a small part belongs to Brussels and thus signage there is bilingual.
> The souther part which is located much further of the city belongs indeed to Wallonia and is in quite a bad shape. So I don't see the problems, drivers always pass a part where signage is bilingual. So yes, some parts of the ringroad are a mess but that's due to the Walloon goverment and not the Brussels/Flemish goverment who have always maintained their sectors well.
> 
> :nono:
> "Boulevard du Lambermont" / "Lambermontlaan"
> "Schaerberk" (?) --> Scha(a)(e)rbeek or "Schaarbeek/Schaerbeek"


I didn't want to post something in the first place but wimpie, you really force us to... please, please, please, just reflect once or twice how you write things... and don't always say "it*s just the truth". Even if... 
But off-topic, I know...


----------



## keokiracer

Meurisse said:


> It will take some time before we'll see the dozers starting on this project... We still have some very active protest comitees not willing to support this project but proposing their own alternative...


What kind of alternatives? Doing nothing? Public transport? Widening the current Ring with a new Kennedytunnel?

(That last one probably not, that would cost way more than the _Lange Wapper_)


----------



## Wimpie

ChrisZwolle said:


> Nice E40 video. The section east of Leuven would've been awesome if the pavement was better. Quantity-wise, it's one of the best motorways in Belgium. Six lanes and only 40.000 - 50.000 vehicles per day.


The section east of Leuven (east of Tienen to be specific) is Wallonian and I don't know what their plans are considering renovation. I suspect they're still looking for funding and are dealing with the worst parts around Luik first.
I do know that since the portion between Brussels and Heverlee has been renovated only a small percentage of the E40 in Flemish-Brabant is below the "Good to Very Good" classification and the local department of Roads and Traffic plans to renovate those last sections as well.


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## Spookvlieger

^^The old conrete part starts well before the E40 crosses border with Wallonia. It's just in a bad shape , Flemish and Wallonian side.


----------



## Thermo

joshsam said:


> ^^The old conrete part starts well before the E40 crosses border with Wallonia. It's just in a bad shape , Flemish and Wallonian side.


Indeed. The E40 east of Leuven is a disgrace. In Wallonia ànd Flanders.


----------



## Wimpie

The bad part starts at Tienen and that's still quite a distance east of Leuven and as far as I can remember that first part of concrete is still in a fairly good state, just noisy like on the E314 before the renovation.


----------



## Thermo

Ok, maybe it's 'fairly good', but I think old concrete highways should't exist anymore. Period. No excuse.

Btw, are there any plans to renovate the E314 after Halen (into Limburg)? That must be one of the worst Flemish highways...


----------



## Wimpie

^^

You're right when you say that they shouldn't exist anymore but the techniques these highways were built with are quite remarkable the least. The concrete was cast in one continuous section so teams were working on the road day and night, al the way from Brussels to Luik. This technique avoids the often seen problem on secondary roads, sagging concrete slabs.
For example the E40 or A3 as it was called back then, was built in the 70's. They repeated this "one section technique" to build the E314 from Holsbeek to Limburg, that road was opened in 1986. The concrete used on the E40 didn't look older than that of the E314. Just to proove that altough it is old, it's not bad. They still use it in combination with a more silent concrete mixture to build our new freeways.

Considering Limburg, I don't know. They have been renovating sections but never more than 5 km in one piece. It is indeed a disgrace, especially when you cross the border comming from Flemish-Brabant. This weekend they have been constructing a new road service before, on and after the Lummen Interchange.


----------



## Daviedoff

Thermo said:


> Indeed. The E40 east of Leuven is a disgrace. In Wallonia ànd Flanders.


Not true... From Leuven to Tienen, the road is mostly in good to exellent condition. The old concrete section starts juft after exit Tienen... And even this isn't very bad at all, it's only very noisy. 
And I was glad to see that the section just before and at interchange Loncin was renewed, before that, this section was a real disaster...


----------



## Wimpie

Happy Spring 2012! (picture taken on 26/03/2012)












For your convience, the picture I took in 2011 on 26/03


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## LtBk

Why are people keep saying that drivers are bad in Belgium?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Probably because they appear so (subjective) and the Belgian traffic fatalities are much higher than surrounding countries (objective).


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## Wimpie

Traffic safety increased to a massive extent over the last decade and logically fatalities dropped drastically in the same amount of time. Much of the image of the "unsafe Belgian traffic" is thanks to subjective feelings of our northern and eastern neighbours.
Objectively, traffic here probably reflects the way Belgians are. A "healthy way of putting regulations aside" with respect and manners towards others.


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## Spookvlieger

^^ Yep, we are just a bit slacky on the rules. But I like it that way. Otherwise things would be boring anyway...


----------



## Wimpie

The E40 was closed down this week because a driver hit an LPG tank at a service station.


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## ChrisZwolle

Nice photo. You can see the single-span overpass, nowadays they don't build those as much.


----------



## Godius

Nice picture!

The track narrows as the barrier bends quite a bit inside (shoulder). Not really to be called safe, i guess.


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## Wimpie

True, stylistically they're very appealing and we still have alot of them over here but whenever one of them is hit they're lost because it's a single construction. That's why new overpasses are always build with a central supportive construction. They're cheaper as well to build


They use more steel for the new ones


















Where in old ones like these more concrete was needed


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N31 Brugge*

Two new tunnels opened to traffic today in Brugge. Flemish minister Hilde Crevits inaugurated the two tunnels in the N31 expressway that bypasses the city of Brugge.


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## Spookvlieger

^^they worked pretty fast.


Dec: 21 it looked like this:


vank said:


> Eén maand na de update van Daviedoff een kleine update van de rotonde Koning Albert I-Laan en N31. _(Foto's: 20 december)_
> 
> Genomen vanaf de fietsersbrug - Tillegemstraat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De brug in kwestie, helaas door het herfstweer oogt het wat (extra) triestig, wel een mooie brug en een mooi en veilig geheel van alles!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iets meer in detail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Momenteel
> Na de betonwerken van de resterende tunneldelen moet er nog wegenisbeton aangelegd worden en dan kan na de ingebruikname van de pompinstallaties het verkeer van de N31 doorheen de tunnel (dit is voorzien in het voorjaar van 2012). Momenteel is men volop bezig aan de constructie van het tweede brugdek zodat ook de rotonde kan worden vervolledigd.
> 
> *Fase 4: bouwen fietsersbrug*
> - autoverkeer op nieuw kruispunt mogelijk
> - fietsverkeer via Chartreuseweg en Rijselstraat
> - onderbrekingen voor plaatsing brug op precies af te spreken tijdstippen
> 
> *Fase 5: afwerking – groen*
> - kruispunt zal opnieuw in gebruik zijn voor alle verkeer.


Render:



Quimb said:


>


----------



## Spookvlieger

And this is the new part of the R4 around Ghent:




































I love this place now. The 4 types of Belgian roads in one pic.

Crossing R4 "Schansakker"


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N31 Brugge*

Some photos by Hilde Crevits, minister of mobility in Flanders.


20120411 Brugge. Opening tunnel N31 by hilde.crevits, on Flickr


20120411 Brugge. Opening tunnel N31 by hilde.crevits, on Flickr

Crevits is the 4th from the right, in the black coat.

20120411 Brugge. Opening tunnel N31 by hilde.crevits, on Flickr


20120411 Brugge. Opening tunnel N31 by hilde.crevits, on Flickr


20120411 Brugge. Opening tunnel N31 by hilde.crevits, on Flickr


20120411 Brugge. Opening tunnel N31 by hilde.crevits, on Flickr


20120411 Brugge. Opening tunnel N31 by hilde.crevits, on Flickr


----------



## Wimpie

I like this one, the minister of public infrastructure in her newest project. Thanks to this woman things are finaly changing


----------



## Wimpie

Another thing, the man made King Albert Canal needs to be widened at some points to be able to carry the newest and biggest ships. In order for that to happen some of the older roadway bridges need to be demolished. Belgium wouldn't be Belgium if it didn't go with a party


----------



## Daviedoff

I've made 2 new vids:

1. B401 Gent, which connects the E17 freeway with the city-centre of Gent.




 
2. The R4 (Ring Gent) freewaysection. (with a littlebit too much zoom)


----------



## Thermo

^^ First video is so typical... They only resurfaced some small parts of the road instead of doing the WHOLE road in the same time... The result is just ridiculous. 

And those bridges when you enter Ghent are appalling.


----------



## Wimpie

Construction has started on a new section of the N19 "North-to-South" connection.


----------



## Batavier

Nice, that's the new road in the province of Limbourg which will go underground eventually isn't it?


----------



## SkyView

Batavier said:


> Nice, that's the new road in the province of Limbourg which will go underground eventually isn't it?


No, it's another north-south connection, in the Antwerp province, between Kasterlee and Geel.


----------



## Wimpie

The N19 is a national road that goes from Leuven to the Dutch border, it runs through 2 provinces and projects to upgrade it are in effect across its entire lengt


----------



## Spookvlieger

Batavier said:


> Nice, that's the new road in the province of Limbourg which will go underground eventually isn't it?


There is also a new section of the North_South connection planned in Limburg yes ,But that's a differend road, the N74. The one in Limburg is the N. Parst of it will be tunneled but not as much as first proposed. The connection is really needed but as for now, will still not get build because of protests...

From Hechtel to the Dutch border it is a highway, and there it stops being a highway because the Dutch gouvernment didn't want to make the connection (hence the problems in Valkenswaard these days), but from Hechtel towards Hasselt, the most busy part of the road it is a 2x2 road that goes trought the core of some villages so they want to fix that...

Innitial plans where a highway from the E40 to Eindhoven. N80 Expressway starts today in Sint-Truiden and runs up to Hasselt, there the origional tracé of that highway changes to N74. N80 also lacking proper connection to the E40 highway runs also further south into Namur.


----------



## Daviedoff

E314 from Leuven - Lummen to Geleen (NL), in 2 video's:


----------



## Godius

Daviedoff said:


> E314 from Leuven - Lummen to Geleen (NL), in 2 video's:


LOL @5:05. 

2x a Belgian license plate, a coincidence?


----------



## Road_UK

Dickhead @ 5:05


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E313 / E314 Lummen Interchange*

The reconstructed Lummen Interchange was officially inaugurated today. The works started in 2006.

before:









after:


----------



## Batavier

^^ that looks much safer!


----------



## Luki_SL

^^It looks much safer and more collourfully


----------



## Spookvlieger

I driven on it last week and I must say some of the LED lighting in the bridges are cinfusing while driving in the dark!. On the other hand much better! I know before you had to look out for trucks behind you when braking for entering that giant circle because they ofthen just keep on driving at to much speed and had a hard time braking when a car did...


----------



## Nima-Farid

the only problem is the small ponds. the would start smelling after a while...


----------



## -Pino-

Lummen is certainly not the only motorway intersection with ponds in it. In the Netherlands, we've got a few too. Never heard anything about smells or comparable complaints. Though I am not really sure why they create these ponds.

Anyway, one horror intersection gone, but Belgium has got a few motorway intersections with conflicts to go. Top of the list: Cheratte between E40 and E25.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retention_basin


----------



## Road_UK

-Pino- said:


> Lummen is certainly not the only motorway intersection with ponds in it. In the Netherlands, we've got a few too. Never heard anything about smells or comparable complaints. Though I am not really sure why they create these ponds.
> 
> Anyway, one horror intersection gone, but Belgium has got a few motorway intersections with conflicts to go. Top of the list: Cheratte between E40 and E25.


E40-E17 Antwerp bound could benefit with some attention...


----------



## Penn's Woods

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20120621_141

"Overkapping" (the Antwerp Ring)? Does that mean they want to cover it?


----------



## keokiracer

^^ Yes.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

These "roofs on motorways" can be good ideas, but putting a roof on the entire R1 is far too expensive. Plus, the space that is freed up is usually not used very efficiently, you can't construct buildings on it or parks with trees. Like in Paris, you'll probably end up with a bunch of tennis courts on it.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20120621_141
> 
> "Overkapping" (the Antwerp Ring)? Does that mean they want to cover it?


Do you read the articles in Dutch? Or do you translate it through Google or some sort?
If you are you should take a look on the Italian Motorway thread...


----------



## Penn's Woods

It looks like it's a Green Party proposal. I assume this is theirs alone, not likely to pass?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Do you read the articles in Dutch? Or do you translate it through Google or some sort?
> If you are you should take a look on the Italian Motorway thread...


I can read Dutch, more or less, but I just had time to skim the article. The word "overkapping," I didn't know, but it's an obvious cognate.


----------



## Road_UK

It is not a word that is used everyday.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

An "overkapping" is a hot topic nowadays, not only in Belgium but also in the Netherlands, France and Germany in particular, where many large projects incorporate some kind of "einhausung" across the motorway.


----------



## Road_UK

I just asked my Austrian friend if he knows the word Einhausung.

He hasn't got a clue...

Keine Anhung!


----------



## Penn's Woods

Off topic (1): I learned the other day (in the New York Times, I think) that the four languages with the largest number of articles on Wikipedia are English, French, German and Dutch. (French and German may not be in that order.) The article was about the relative lack of content in Spanish.

Off topic (2): I learned two minutes ago that the first Atlantic hurricane of the year is named Chris.

Sorry....
:cheers:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Road_UK said:


> I just asked my Austrian friend if he knows the word Einhausung.
> 
> He hasn't got a clue...
> 
> Keine Anhung!


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einhausung

They are not as common in Austria as they are in Germany. Innsbruck recently got an "einhausung" across A12.

Belgium doesn't have many / any yet...


----------



## Road_UK

Yes, the A3 at Goldbach did spring to mind when you mentioned it, as well as the Amras tunnel at Innsbruck. Others in Austria are the ones that function as protection against avalanches. There are a few of those in the Zillertal. In Belgian I can only think of those silly tube thingies near Genk...


----------



## Suburbanist

Covered highways can be ok, but some of the schemes I see are just weird... and, of course, they make widening a very expensive proposition...

The only thing that bothers me is that they talk so much of covering highways to eliminate physical barrier in cities, yet they ignore the elephant in the room of most European cities: massive rail yards or station approaches that are as wide as 40-lane highways, usually without any over/underpass.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Nobody proposes to cover interchanges, either...


----------



## Daviedoff

R2 Beveren - Zandvliet with the Liefkenshoek toll tunnel, new version:





 

A54/E420 from Nivelles to Charleroi:


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Outside the dirty cities like Liège and Charleroi, the Southern Wallonie area is very beautiful and actually quite high, sometimes over 600m, with deep river valleys. It's an important tourist attraction. You can even ski here in winter.


Is that high???
Anyway, your English has improved a lot over the years :lol:
Since I've added Autopager to my Firefox, I like to dig a bit into history...


----------



## Spookvlieger

R2 is in a bad state judging from the video hno: + my gosh that's one empty highway...


----------



## Spookvlieger

> *Brussels and Antwerp have worst traffic*
> 
> 
> Traffic jams in Belgium are the worst in the world, according to a survey carried out by the US traffic information platform Inrix, which looked at the GPS data of 100 million motorists in Europe and North America.
> 
> Milan comes at the top of the list, followed by Brussels and Antwerp. In Belgium as a whole, the average motorist spends 55 hours a year in traffic, the worst score in the survey. In Brussels, the figure goes up to 70.5 hours, and in Antwerp 70.2. Ghent comes third in Belgium on 50 hours. The worst place to be is, apparently, in Antwerp on a Friday between 16.00 and 17.00, when you can expect your journey to take 40% longer than at other times.
> 
> Motoring organisation Touring said the figures were “the result of decisions not being thought through” and compared Belgian cities to “fortified fortresses” where traffic was held on the outskirts, with no options like park-and-ride zones.
> 
> Flemish mobility minister Hilde Crevits noted that the number of roadworks at present was not helping the problem but warned that there are “no miracle solutions. There is a need for major investment, not only in the roads network but also in public transport, and in improving road safety so that there are fewer accidents to disrupt traffic.”
> 
> http://www.flanderstoday.eu/content/brussels-and-antwerp-have-worst-traffic
> 
> The stats can be found here:
> http://scorecard.inrix.com/scorecard


...


----------



## verreme

I have a question for you guys.

Several years ago (2005 maybe?) I watched in TV some news about speed limits in Flemish motorways being lowered from 120 to 90 km/h due to pollution. Later on, Catalan regional government used this as an argument for lowering speed in motorways in Barcelona metro area from 120 to 80 km/h. The measure is now (fortunately) gone, but I wonder what happened with Flemish motorways. How long did that last? Did it apply to all the network?

Thank you all


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E17 Antwerpen - Gent - Kortrijk - Rekkem (F)*

Part II

41. 

E17-41 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

42.

E17-42 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

43.

E17-43 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

44.

E17-44 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

45.

E17-45 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

46.

E17-46 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

47.

E17-47 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

48.

E17-48 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

49.

E17-49 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

50.

E17-50 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

51.

E17-51 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

52.

E17-52 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

53.

E17-53 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

54.

E17-54 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

55.

E17-55 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

56.

E17-56 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

57.

E17-57 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

58.

E17-58 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

59.

E17-59 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

60.

E17-60 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

61. 

E17-61 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

62.

E17-62 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

63.

E17-63 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

64.

E17-64 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

65.

E17-65 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

66.

E17-66 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

67.

E17-67 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

68.

E17-68 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

69.

E17-69 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

70.

E17-70 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

71.

E17-71 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

72.

E17-72 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

73.

E17-73 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

74.

E17-74 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

75.

E17-75 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

76.

E17-76 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

77.

E17-77 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

78.

E17-78 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

79.

E17-79 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

80.

E17-80 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

81.

E17-81 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

82.

E17-82 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr

83.

E17-83 by Chriszwolle, on Flickr


----------



## Daviedoff

R8 Kortrijk, full-HD video:


----------



## Wapper

@ chriszwolle: I don't think that sign indicates the viaduct, because it's after that. I think it's just to anounce that you are in the Gentbrugge part of Gent.


----------



## Road_UK

Dutch speeders in Belgium will not receive a ticket at home anymore since the beginning of this year, a newspaper reports today. Belgian police says its too much of a hassle to go through a new European database, and without an address, they can't send the speeding tickets out to owners of speeding vehicles. Prior, the police used to ask the RDW, the Dutch agency that issues license plates, for details, but they have stopped supplying them to the Belgian authorities, stating that the European database is as good as anything else, upsetting the Belgians who are now sulking that the Dutch don't want to cooperate with them anymore. The city of Antwerp take notes of Dutch registration numbers of offending vehicles, in the hope to catch them at a later stage.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Belgian road vignette will be introduced in 2016. Apperently it will be required on all roads, not just motorways.

The weird thing is that the expected revenue from the vignette is just over € 2 billion. This is substantially more than the € 230 million revenue in Switzerland and the € 368 million in Austria, so I'm wondering what kind of ripoff we will be facing in 2016.


----------



## Road_UK

Traffic volumes are also a lot higher.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That doesn't matter. You pay the same for an annual vignette whether you drive 1 or 500 times a year across a road. Some of the difference could be explained by the higher amount of transit traffic, although trucks will supposedly pay via a km-charge. Austria is not that much smaller than Belgium (8.4 vs 11 million inhabitants) and also has substantial through traffic and foreign holiday traffic who purchase vignettes. Austria sold 23.1 million vignettes last year, while Belgium has about 5.4 million registered vehicles.


----------



## Road_UK

Count the daily Dutch, German, French, Luxembourg and UK traffic and numbers will add up. Don't forget that the E411 functions as a through road for the French avoiding tolls on the French A4 andA26.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I made a simplified calculation. The average sold vignette in Austria costs € 15,90. To get to 2 billion revenue, the average vignette in Belgium will have to cost € 67.


----------



## Road_UK

Based on how much traffic per country annually? Also include holiday and transit traffic, as well as the 1000s of French and Dutch commuter traffic that crosses the border every day to go to work in Belgium.
Edit: and keeping in mind that the Belgian vignette applies on all roads.


----------



## aswnl

Some thousand commuters will generate only 10-100 thousands of euro's, not billions. Transit traffic isn't that much except from holidays, and I believe a lot of Dutch going tot eastern France and Spain will travel via Germany from the day the vignette will be introduced. So not much income from them - the loss of taxes on fuel will possibly be higher than the income from Dutch from the southwest of NL. Trucks will generate income, but there's also a downside: Belgium by then will no longer gain money from the Euro-vignette for trucks, just like the German LKW-Maut. And even the tolled Liefkenshoektunnel will loose income to the Dutch Westerscheldetunnel...


----------



## Road_UK

Yes but you forget that the vignette applies on all roads, so all vehicles traveling in Belgium are required to display one. And you will be surprised how many Austrian registered vehicles in Mayrhofen alone do not have a vignette because they never travel on motorways.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's hard to imagine trips to Belgium or people living in Belgium never using the motorway. I doubt if it would make a substantial difference if only motorways or all roads would be tolled.


----------



## italystf

Imagine the situation in Baarle Hertog/Nassau: "this car is parked half in Belgium but it has no vignette, so we must fine it." :lol:


----------



## Meurisse

ChrisZwolle said:


> I made a simplified calculation. The average sold vignette in Austria costs € 15,90. To get to 2 billion revenue, the average vignette in Belgium will have to cost € 67.


A first unofficial rumour said the price is set to € 90 (a year) and they'll have to install at least thousand camera's for controling the use of the vignette.

Cars will need to have lager windshields when every country wants to have their vignette on it...


----------



## Godius

Let's hope that they will make decent roads with the revenue. But I'm afraid that the money is going te be used for a whole bunch of things except for decent road building.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Meurisse said:


> A first unofficial rumour said the price is set to € 90 (a year) and they'll have to install at least thousand camera's for controling the use of the vignette.


The Austrian annual vignette is also almost € 90, so that doesn't explain the huge difference. There are 5.4 million passenger cars in Belgium, so € 90 would raise about € 486 million, provided every single passenger car needs a vignette. The other € 1.5 billion would have to be raised from foreign vehicles, which is a very unlikely amount (if the average short-term vignette costs € 15 you need 100 million foreign passenger cars on the road every year).

Something's not right.


----------



## Road_UK

Well, obviously they haven't set a price yet, nor is it really clear how they are going to implement it, so nobody can tell the annual revenue until we see a actual price list.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Yes but you forget that the vignette applies on all roads, so all vehicles traveling in Belgium are required to display one. And you will be surprised how many Austrian registered vehicles in Mayrhofen alone do not have a vignette because they never travel on motorways.


Does any other country in Europe do that? Is it even legal? Seems to me it amounts to a fee to cross the border (at least by car)....


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> Well, obviously they haven't set a price yet, nor is it really clear how they are going to implement it, so nobody can tell the annual revenue until we see a actual price list.


There were articles on Belgian papers' sites last week about the number of cameras that will go up just to read vignettes and license plates.

EDIT: http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique/article/755368/840-cameras-scanneront-votre-plaque.html


----------



## Road_UK

Which is ok when they put a reflective foil over it, like in other countries. So why don't they?


----------



## piotr71

joshsam said:


> The trucks forming long rows is an argument. Other than that I have no idea but* I don't considder it a bad thing*.
> 
> What about signs only on the left side of the road
> 
> It's up to the Walloon government to cut the trees down then if that part is so bad...


I actually like them as long as I can see one. 

Find a missing detail


----------



## piotr71

One more.


----------



## Glodenox

Several provinces do indeed have serious problems in terms of keeping the motorways maintained... I sometimes wonder why they even bother having a green median if they're unable to maintain it.
As for the signs on the left: I'm not certain whether it's actually cheaper to have an overhead sign instead of having the same sign on both sides. I don't have any information about the costs, but I can imagine that a gantry also has its price.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Glodenox said:


> Several provinces do indeed have serious problems in terms of keeping the motorways maintained... I sometimes wonder why they even bother having a green median if they're unable to maintain it.


Let me fix that: The green medain is there because they didn't maintain it. Once (in most places, but not all) it used the be just grass on the median and on the side of the highways...At one time (some 30 years ago) they stopped to cut the grass, grass became weeds and weeds became forest.

Example:

LONCIN ( A3/E40 X A15/E42 X A602/E25 )










Exactly the same spot today: http://goo.gl/maps/9UmTn


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## Penn's Woods

^^If you don't mind a point of English (I don't make a habit of doing this), you mean "stopped cutting the grass." "Stopped to cut the grass" would mean you were in the middle of doing something else when you noticed the grass needed to be cut, so you stopped what you were doing and cut the grass instead.

:cheers:

Now, since there are Belgians on line, what do you know about the issue discussed starting here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=94628639#post94628639 ? My impression was all directional signage to Belgian places needed to reflect the status of the place the sign was in. So Liège would be:

Liège in French-speaking areas without facilities
Liège/Luik in French-speaking areas with Dutch facilities or in Brussels
Liège/Lüttich in French-speaking areas with German facilities
Lüttich/Liège in German-speaking areas, which all have French facilities
Luik/Liège in Dutch-speaking areas with French facilities
Luik in the rest of Flanders.

Apparently it's not so?


----------



## piotr71

You are great Michael!


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^Um, thanks....
[blushes]

I thought I was being embarrassingly nerdy, actually....


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^If you don't mind a point of English (I don't make a habit of doing this), you mean "stopped cutting the grass." "Stopped to cut the grass" would mean you were in the middle of doing something else when you noticed the grass needed to be cut, so you stopped what you were doing and cut the grass instead.


Thanks, learned that again. Although I knew the two forms, I never realised they could have a slight differend meaning. 

:cheers:



Penn's Woods said:


> Now, since there are Belgians on line, what do you know about the issue discussed starting here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=94628639#post94628639 ? My impression was all directional signage to Belgian places needed to reflect the status of the place the sign was in. So Liège would be:
> 
> Liège in French-speaking areas without facilities
> Liège/Luik in French-speaking areas with Dutch facilities or in Brussels
> Liège/Lüttich in French-speaking areas with German facilities
> Lüttich/Liège in German-speaking areas, which all have French facilities
> Luik/Liège in Dutch-speaking areas with French facilities
> Luik in the rest of Flanders.
> 
> Apparently it's not so?



You know, I have no idea. It's also not something that keeps me awake at night . I know that in Belgium, by law, cities are signed in the language wich is spoken in the region the sign stands in. (But exeptions are to be found everywhere) That's why you have language swaps around Brussels on the R0. On one sign the city is named in Dutch, on the next sign in French...

I've seen names of German cities on Belgian roads signed in Dutch/French and German. Ofthen the German name first and then the Dutch name enclosed by brackets. e.g.: Köln (Keulen), Aachen (Aken). But then again towards Lille in France you have signs that put the Dutch name first like this: Rijsel (Lille)

As for signing of Belgian cities in other countries I have no idea what rules are overthere. If you drive on the Belgian A3/E40 (German 44) you have Liège signed in German, French and Dutch. (or at least it used to be couple of years ago)

I have no idea why on that Dutch sign in the link Köln is singed in German and Aachen in Dutch. The other names seem obvious as Liège is a French speaking city and there are no language disputes in The Netherlands.

Brussel/Bruxelles, hmmm, lets leave that in the middle. I see no use signing it in French on a Dutch motorway but some other Belgians might not think alike..


Lets conclude that it is al tarred with the same brush (is that correct? We say: één pot nat! :lol


----------



## Bothar.G

Wide medians are a huge thing to maintain. They can be equivalent to several Olympic stadiums depending on the distance covered. It may be cheaper to maintain them every 10 years instead of cutting them every year. In some countries it's no longer practical to build wide medians because of escalating land costs and the subsequent maintenance costs. Unless they built a left shoulder lane.


----------



## Spookvlieger

@ Penn's Woods: The trains and language issue you discribed to on Le Soir probably goes about this:

For Example:
One of the most busy railway lines runs from Liège to Ostend through Brussels. You leave in Liége and all spoken (intercom) and written (screens in the train) language on the trains is French. Then you enter Flanders and from the moment you arrive in the town of Landen, everything spoken and written on the train becomes Dutch, leaving the persons who don't speak Dutch helpless. Ofthen in Landen trains are splitt up and re-arranged. So according to you destination you might have to change of carrage. Especially the trains drving from Brussels to Liège are ofthen splitt up in a section that travels to Hasselt and one that travels to Liège. So this might cause some trouble. Aloso the stop in Leuven, wich is a major railway hub for Flanders, might cause troubles. (There is also a faster railway line directly from Liège to Leuven so many French speaking people will have to switch trains overthere.)

Then when you enter Brussels all announcements become trilingual (French/Dutch/English) That's true for aal stations in Brussels and on this particluar line for about 3 stations ( Brussels North, Central and South). Afther you leave Brussels South you travel West towards Ostend and everything will be in Dutch again.... Ofthen to reach other cities along the coast line people will need to switch trains in Ghent. Since everything is in Dutch, French speaker wo can't understand a word Dutch are kinda helpless...

I don't think there is going to be a solution for the problem anytime soon though .


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^That's the idea. Actually, the example was an Eupen-to-Ostend train.* Although they didn't go into issues like changing trains. There was a list, though, of stations in Brussels where Dutch is used first and stations in Brussels where French is used first. :nuts:

It doesn't keep me up at night but the interplay of languages is fascinating to me for some reason. I know way more than is reasonable for an American about Quebec and Catalonia too. And I've never even been to Catalonia, although it's high on my list....

*Personal note: it was finding myself unexpectedly in Ostend and discovering that, between English and having studied German, I understood a lot that got me interested in the Dutch language. "Unexpectedly," because I got out of that Cologne-Brussels train at Midi/Zuid and discovered that there were not in fact any convenient hotels in the neighborhood. In fact, at least in 1985, that neighborhood didn't look at all inviting. So I decided to check my bag, sightsee in Brussels, and then go on to Ostend for the night - I was going to England the next day anyway so I'd have a head start in the morning.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> *Personal note: it was finding myself unexpectedly in Ostend and discovering that, between English and having studied German, I understood a lot that got me interested in the Dutch language. "Unexpectedly," because I got out of that Cologne-Brussels train at Midi/Zuid and discovered that there were not in fact any convenient hotels in the neighborhood. In fact, at least in 1985, that neighborhood didn't look at all inviting. So I decided to check my bag, sightsee in Brussels, and then go on to Ostend for the night - I was going to England the next day anyway so I'd have a head start in the morning.


Brussels has changed a lot since 1985 and overall looks much better now. You have seen Brussels at it's worst when you visited it back in those days... The area around the South station still is a rough area but they are changing that as we speak. Unfortionally, the trainstation still looks like crap, only the TGV/Thalys/Eurostar platforms build in the 90ties look ok.

Overall trainstations in Brussels are the worst of the country. Many middle sized cities have modern trainstations or old ones where they looked afther over the years... Unfortionally they have better railwaystations in Seberia compaired to Brussels.

And yes Dutch/Flemish sounds very similar to English  Since you have had German, You should be able to speak it in only a few months, though writing is a lot harder.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I was using the sort of abbreviated Continent-wide timetable that was issued with the Eurailpass. Midi/Zuid was the only Brussels station it showed (I suppose there were more international connections there than at the others) so I assumed it was the main one. And since I'd just been in a couple of cities in Germany where it was easy to find a perfectly acceptable room either across the street from the train station or actually in it (Cologne), I assumed Brussels would be that way too!

What I haven't mentioned is it was August 15, so when I arrived in Ostend at 6 p.m. without a reservation, the woman at the tourist counter looked at me as if I was crazy and started working the phones, so I got to eavesdrop on a good bit of what I suppose was West-Vlaams. She found me a cheap, clean room upstairs from a cheap restaurant.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> I was using the sort of abbreviated Continent-wide timetable that was issued with the Eurailpass. Midi/Zuid was the only Brussels station it showed (I suppose there were more international connections there than at the others) so I assumed it was the main one. And since I'd just been in a couple of cities in Germany where it was easy to find a perfectly acceptable room either across the street from the train station or actually in it (Cologne), I assumed Brussels would be that way too!


In that times the only decent station was Central, around Central there were/are lots of hotels. The problem was offcourse that South was allways the hub for international trains. Why they let that area delipitate that much I have no idea. So you surely wasn't in the wrong railwaystation. Brussels had a very bad reputation at the time and city flight to the suburbs was in full progress. 

The area looks like this now but it's only the street against the station, the ones behind that still look a bit rough.

West entrance south: http://goo.gl/maps/wpxH5
West entrance North: http://goo.gl/maps/pl4W8
Eeast entrance: http://goo.gl/maps/GyW9o



Penn's Woods said:


> What I haven't mentioned is it was August 15, so when I arrived in Ostend at 6 p.m. without a reservation, the woman at the tourist counter looked at me as if I was crazy and started working the phones, so I got to eavesdrop on a good bit of what I suppose was West-Vlaams. She found me a cheap, clean room upstairs from a cheap restaurant.


You got lucky! Specially if the weather as good. Every hotel and rental appartment is full at our coastline around that time  To take a look back, maybe you will enjoy this thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1200625&highlight=flemish+coast  From post 16 onward you'll see pics of Ostend.


----------



## Road_UK

Driving from Brussels to Liege on the E40, first all the signs are in Dutch, so you head for Luik. Then you enter Walloon, so the signs turn French and you head tor Liege, until the road strays back into Flanders again for a few km, and the signs for Luik reappear. Once back in Walloon, it is all French again. I wonder which agency maintains the Flemish corridor, because road quality on the Flemish bit stays the same.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Road_UK said:


> I wonder which agency maintains the Flemish corridor, because road quality on the Flemish bit stays the same.


Agentschap Wegen en Verkeer Just like in the rest of Flanders. They maintain everything on Flemish N roads and Highways on Flemish territory... Every province has it's own department to. It's two stretches of about 3km and I agree the concrete is in a bad state. In between those two stretches there is 3km that belongs to Wallonia.

The quality of the road surface increases once you enter the Province of Liège but when you get at Loncin it almost makes you cry in despair...

ps: I tried to search the same agency for Wallonia but couldn't find it online. The only once I could find in the French one. PFF finding information for Wallonia is horrible and I thin Flanders is bad in information sites compaired to The Netherlands for instance...They have lots of work to do overthere.


----------



## Penn's Woods

I've seen the Walloon road site. There are some nice maps on it. But it's been a while since I looked at it and I'm damned if I can remember the address....

EDIT: Voilà : http://routes.wallonie.be/


----------



## sotonsteve

abritishguy said:


> Also, am I right in thinking that they have used the same type of lamp for the past 40+ years, because over here in england we replace (most) of the motorway light fittings after about 10 years or so!


Most motorway lighting in the UK gets replaced long before it is life expired. Some lighting does not even survive for 10 years. Very wasteful.


----------



## Daviedoff

E25 from Neufchâteau to Liège, in 2 videos:


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Great video's! 

Try to watch how many Luxemburgians are speeding on our roads... I noticed it myself last week when I went with a friend to Baraque de fraiture to hang out 2 trailcams.

@ second video, 3:52 when are they going to fix that part? Plates say "route dégradé" like forever on that part.

The most fun part of the highway to drive starts in the second vid on 4.55 at Tilff. I love that part. Sometimes scary when it's busy too.


----------



## Road_UK

A lot of these Luxembourg registered vehicles are driven by Belgians. Either for tax reasons, or Belgian workers.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^How easy is it to do that? ("That" meaning register a car in a country you don't live in.)


----------



## Road_UK

I don't know, but it is getting more popular in Belgium, Netherlands and even Austria to buy and/or register vehicles in Luxembourg. There are quite a few people in Innsbruck who register their vehicles there.


----------



## Filou

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^How easy is it to do that? ("That" meaning register a car in a country you don't live in.)


A lot of these cars are leased company cars. Or they lease it from a Luxemburgian company, or their company has an office in Luxemburg.

I don't think you can register your car in Luxemburg as a private person, unless you have your official home in that country. Off course, I think you can lease it in Luxemburg, if you like.


----------



## Penn's Woods

The Belgians are Champions of Speeding!

http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/belg...pions-des-exces-de-vitesse-et-vous-939870.php

But Dutch drivers can't be ticketed for speeding in Belgium:

http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique...erlandais-ne-peuvent-pas-etre-verbalises.html

Yes, arguably the articles don't actually say what the headlines lead one to expect....


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^What can I say, when my dad learned me driving he was like: I know it's 50 here but drive 60 because it feels so damn slow.

A lot of roads are 50km/h in Belgium because where there is a road, there are houses. Even on large sections of main thoroughfares are 50km/h for miles on end. It's annoying.


----------



## Road_UK

Also a lot of 70 in Belgium what would have been 50 in Holland and Germany. UK has a lot of 65 kph in urban areas as well. (40 mph)


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^But by German or Dutch standards of build up area almost every street in Belgium would be due to the bad planning.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Belgium has the worst possible spatial planning from a traffic engineering point of view.

Most roads are lined with houses, creating few possibilities to improve the road or to construct parallel roads for slow traffic, it creates a lot of conflicts (Belgium has the worst traffic safety in western Europe) and it exposes many more people to traffic noise.


----------



## Daviedoff

N74 from Hasselt to Lommel (border with NL):


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^It can't get any more Belgian I guess  You were lucky on that road. When did you drive it? It's gridlocked very ofthen. The bridge at 0:55 is in a very bad shape. Underneath it is been studded by metal studs for as long as I can remember and the steel rebar in the bridge is exposed because concrete is missing!


----------



## Daviedoff

This vid is taped last Sunday, around 1 pm.


----------



## piotr71

Guess the year this picture was taken.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

2012.


----------



## Road_UK

ROFL!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It's possible. Search an old road (plenty of them in Belgium), organize some oldtimers and shoot a photo in sepia.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Shouldn't it be more overgrown?


----------



## Suburbanist

Look at the old crappy telephone dual-wire placed there... phased out sometime in the 1990s at the LATEST.


----------



## piotr71

3 shots later all become clear:









Chris is right! Actually, it was April 2011 and the first picture has been slightly photoshoped but it does not make any particular difference. Belgian 
roads rule...for those loving classic vehicles driven on the roads from the relevant era.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> I meant to ask "Doesn't everyone understand Dutch?" Wasn't sure I was getting it right. :-/


 Non Dutch speakers might find this difficult  in this case the sentence construction is differend from the ones I wrote. Because you are being ironic you have to add someting and it becomes: Verstaat niet iedereen Nederlands dan? Anyway your sentence wasn't wrong, just a bit strange


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> Headline of the day: "One motorist in five drives without headlights at night":
> 
> http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique/article/785346/un-automobiliste-sur-cinq-roule-sans-phares-la-nuit.html
> 
> Survey conducted on presumably-lighted Belgian freeways, but still....


That's a lot. And many Belgian motorways are dark these days except for the exits and junctions... I noticed yesterday the E313 between Tongeren and Hasselt (it's not a busy section but still) wasn't even lit at 7pm.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Josham, what is the Belgian equivalent of the Dutch Rijkwaterstraat (RWS)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

There is no Belgian equivalent. There is agentschap wegen en verkeer in Flanders and Autoroutes et route de Wallonie


----------



## Penn's Woods

joshsam said:


> Non Dutch speakers might find this difficult  in this case the sentence construction is differend from the ones I wrote. Because you are being ironic you have to add someting and it becomes: Verstaat niet iedereen Nederlands dan? Anyway your sentence wasn't wrong, just a bit strange


God, it's worse than French. hno:

(Joking.)


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> There is no Belgian equivalent. There is agentschap wegen en verkeer in Flanders and Autoroutes et route de Wallonie


And Brussels?


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> And Brussels?


Everything about transport is on this site: http://www.bruxellesmobilite.irisnet.be/

Here you can find all organisations in Belgium that go over mobility:
http://wegen-routes.be/link/linkn.html#gewest
you can click FR in the upper right corner.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Lummen motorway interchange at night:


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^While this certainly is a nice junction now, i do wonder why they haven't build it to handle more capacity....


----------



## PLH

You mean more lanes? Because only a stack is better than a turbine, given the same amount of lanes, and these are way too comlicated for European traffic.


----------



## Filou

Penn's Woods said:


> Headline of the day: "One motorist in five drives without headlights at night":
> 
> http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique...liste-sur-cinq-roule-sans-phares-la-nuit.html
> 
> Survey conducted on presumably-lighted Belgian freeways, but still....


This is a very strange article. You get the impression that 1 in 5 of the motorists drive without lights at night. Surely everbody who has been in Belgium has noticed that this isn't true!

I don't know the correct names in English for the different kind of names for the different lights of a car.
Cars have normally three kinds of lights in front. Citylights (or parking lights), normal lights (are these the headlights?) and than you have a third kind that you use on dark motorways and highways when there are'nt any cars from the opposite directed you can blind. You also use them to flash a car in front of you if they go to slow. (Well, some people do that) In French these are called "phares". What is the correct translation for this?


----------



## Road_UK

It is true that Belgians leave it to the last minute before putting their headlights on. But when it's raining they put their fog lights on, which is compulsory in Belgium, but fortunately considered dangerous almost anywhere else.


----------



## Spookvlieger

PLH said:


> You mean more lanes? Because only a stack is better than a turbine, given the same amount of lanes, and these are way too comlicated for European traffic.


But there are turbines in Belgium with more lanes...
And how is a stack to complicated for european traffic? Some of the junctions with the R0 are stacks, they are just better integrated in the landscape then those American ones wich are hidious in most cases.

Turbine with more lanes: R0 x A201 Brussels airport








http://www.globalview.be/pictures/big/A_511090.jpg

Stack: R0 x A10








http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/44795395.jpg


----------



## Penn's Woods

Filou said:


> This is a very strange article. You get the impression that 1 in 5 of the motorists drive without lights at night. Surely everbody who has been in Belgium has noticed that this isn't true!
> 
> I don't know the correct names in English for the different kind of names for the different lights of a car.
> Cars have normally three kinds of lights in front. Citylights (or parking lights), normal lights (are these the headlights?) and than you have a third kind that you use on dark motorways and highways when there are'nt any cars from the opposite directed you can blind. You also use them to flash a car in front of you if they go to slow. (Well, some people do that) In French these are called "phares". What is the correct translation for this?


Parking lights, headlights and "high beams." But I always thought "phares" was the normal word for headlights, not high beams. :dunno:


----------



## Penn's Woods

Road_UK said:


> It is true that Belgians leave it to the last minute before putting their headlights on. But when it's raining they put their fog lights on, which is compulsory in Belgium, but fortunately considered dangerous almost anywhere else.


Most American cars don't even have fog lights.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Penn's Woods said:


> Most American cars don't even have fog lights.


Not even rear fog lights? They're mandatory in Europe. Otherwise you can't see vehicles in front of you in dense fog. Front fog lights are not mandatory, my car doesn't have them. Many childish adults use them for decoration (i.e. for no valid reason other than to make it look "cooler"). You can actually be fined for having fog lights on (front or rear) when visibility is not severely limited in the Netherlands, but apparently it's mandatory to have rear fog lights on during rain in Belgium, but it's considered very annoying in other countries.


----------



## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> Most American cars don't even have fog lights.


On that account America is the place to be. There is nothing more annoying than being stuck behind somebody with these bloody lights on. Driving at dark when it's raining in Belgium is a real migraine stimulator as these fog lights blend extra in water.


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> Not even rear fog lights? They're mandatory in Europe. Otherwise you can't see vehicles in front of you in dense fog. Front fog lights are not mandatory, my car doesn't have them. Many childish adults use them for decoration (i.e. for no valid reason other than to make it look "cooler").


I only put them on when the visibility is less then 50 metres, and not when someone is having a cigarette outside.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Yeah, but we have SUVs that are so high that if you're in a normal car (like yours truly) with an SUV behind you even the normal headlights shine right into your rearview mirror.


----------



## Road_UK

I'm talking about rear lights. Not bothered about the front ones.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some parts have already been done, but there are major works planned for this year.

Some parts of E34 look like this:


----------



## piotr71

Stretch between Antwerp and Zelzate (motorway) looked like this in 2008 yet. I drove there in October 2010 and it was fine:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=65990485#post65990485

_Pictures got smaller for unknown reason but are still readable._


----------



## Meurisse

ChrisZwolle said:


> between Zelzate and Antwerpen


Only between Antwerp and Melsele (that's between R1 and R2)



ChrisZwolle said:


> which is in quite poor condition (maybe the worst in Flanders).


this is absolutely true. Last week they had to close the highway because of a car accident that happened because of a sunk piece of road ...


More info on the planned road reconstruction (in Flanders) this year:









19 constructions sites, 170km of highway at a cost of nearly 90 millions


----------



## Road_UK

ChrisZwolle said:


> The E34 conversion to a motorway is quite slow unfortunately. They just do one intersection at a time. They will also start some major rehabilitation projects along the existing part between Zelzate and Antwerpen which is in quite poor condition (maybe the worst in Flanders).


After E34 towards Eindhoven.


----------



## crimio

How many km of motorway are in Belgium?


----------



## keokiracer

1.763 km


----------



## crimio

Thanks, so the number is the same as in 2007.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Yep, the same as 2000 as well.


----------



## crimio

)


----------



## crimio

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yep, the same as 2000 as well.


----------



## Daviedoff

A video of R30, the city-ring of Bruges (Brugge):


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^Nice video! An immage of Bruges many people will think doesn't exist.


----------



## Daviedoff

Next one: N31 Brugge - Zeebrugge!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

boom! 2 hours delay on R1 and 1.5 hour on A11/E34.









cause:


----------



## JB1981

Boom! seems to be a fine description indeed :uh:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You thought Los Angeles traffic was bad? Think again, Brussels and Antwerp have the worst traffic congestion _in the world_.

http://www.inrix.com/Scorecard/


----------



## Spookvlieger

All Belgians knew that allready xD. On a more serious note. We need to build more motorways soon or face total gridlock. R0 and R1 need bypasses and widenings really badly hno:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ They should build an "outer eastern bypass" linking Wavre-Louvain-Zandhoven-Brecht.

Converting the remaining A12 sectors that are non-highway would help a lot.


----------



## jdb.2

For the record, this was actually the planned motorway network in the seventies:








(source: wegen-routes.be)

Here are some close-ups of these plans.

This was how the R2 was planned:








This actually differs a bit from the first map, where it has a spiral shape.
A motorway between Ekeren and Wommelgem was also planned (A102). Today only the nothern section of the R2 running through the port is built.
Currently, there are propositions to build the A102 and extend the R2 to connect to the E17 in Beveren as an alternative to the Oosterweel plans.

The roadnetwork around Brussels








The A11 was originally planned to run parrallel to the E40 from Brussels to Dendermonde. You can see also a southern extension of the Brussels ring R0. And the A8 (E429) had to connect to the R0 in Anderlecht instead of Halle.
The Anderlecht interchange was actually built, but it now just an oversized exit: http://goo.gl/maps/F14Ad

The planned road network around Mechelen.








The R6 Mechelen ringroad was originally planned as motorway. 
Parallel to the current E19, there is also a motorway coming from Leuven, passing by Mechelen and connecting to the R2.

The province of West-Vlaanderen.








We can see the A9, which is actually built, but only from Kortrijk to Ieper. It's current number is A19.
The A71 is also built as A17 (E403), but it's route is changed to run more to the east. Instead of passing west from Brugge, it currently conencts to the E40 south of Brugge.
Other never-built roads on this map is a road running from Waragem to Diksmuide passing by north of Roeselare, and the missing nothern section of the R8 (ringroad of Kortrijk).

Province of Limburg.








This road was planned as the A24 Hasselt-Eindhoven. The section between Houthalen and the Dutch border is built, but does not have motorway restrictions, it's currently known as N74. However, it does have the same look & feel as a motorway.

Finally, the Charleroi region.








The A6 was never built. It was supposed to be a second connection between Brussels and Charleroi and connect to the R3 ringroad. The R3 is actually built.

Map source: Pierre Berquin

Most of these were a bit exaggerated in my opinion, however, some of these plans (like the R2 around Antwerp) could solve many traffic problems that exist today. It seems the planners in those periods were very forward-looking.


----------



## Road_UK

Will they ever extend the A19 to Veurne? I've found that a lot of locals use the A25 in France instead...


----------



## jdb.2

According to this site , the plans to extend the A19 were definitively buried in 2005. Ironically, i have read that one of the obstacles that prevented the extension of this road is a historical WWI cemetery. But that's not mentioned in the provided link, don't know if that story is true or not.

This decision may also mean the reserved zone for this road will also be cancelled. If that's the case, we can be sure it will never be extended.
Then, as usual, the authorities come up with half-baked alternatives, like an improved N8 between Ieper and Veurne.


----------



## Road_UK

It'll have to be more then just an improvement. That road is horrible. No wonder people divert to the French A25.


----------



## Meurisse

ChrisZwolle said:


> boom! 2 hours delay on R1 and 1.5 hour on A11/E34.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cause:


After 30 hours it's still burning (it burned at 2000°C). E34 will be closed for the rest of the weekend...


----------



## Fane40

Cause of this truck accident ?
Maybe a reason to built a second ring road of Antwerpen. Maybe not...
But two hours to cross the city,:nuts: !


----------



## keokiracer

Fane40 said:


> Cause of this truck accident ?


 Unknown



Fane40 said:


> Maybe a reason to built a second ring road of Antwerpen. Maybe not...


 This crash happened just west of the R2 (2nd Ring of Antwerp)


Fane40 said:


> But two hours to cross the city,:nuts: !


That's Antwerp for ya...


----------



## Meurisse

Fane40 said:


> Cause of this truck accident ?


Not yet confirmed but it could be a lost spare wheel that made this truck (loaded with hydrogen) make his fatal maneuver.

After almost 48hours burning, the truck has now been removed. Tomorrow at 10h we will know how long reconstruction of the highway will take...



> Maybe a reason to built a second ring road of Antwerpen. Maybe not...


In this case not, it happened further than R2



> But two hours to cross the city,:nuts: !


You have the biggest traffic jam or you don't


----------



## ChrisZwolle

New bridge across the Albert Canal near Geel. The N19 runs across it.


----------



## jdb.2

^^ Any renders of this bridge? There is a dedicated site about the N19 project with a lot of images, but i couldn't find anything about this bridge: http://www.noordzuidkempen.be/projecten/aanleg-n19g but sadly nothing about the most interesting part.



Fane40 said:


> Cause of this truck accident ?
> Maybe a reason to built a second ring road of Antwerpen. Maybe not...
> But two hours to cross the city,:nuts: !





Meurisse said:


> In this case not, it happened further than R2


That's right, but if the R2 was finished it would automatically releave pressure on the R1, with or without incidents. Every incident on any of the roads feeding the Ring causes overcrowding (is that a word?) on the R1. So while the R2 would handle long distance-traffic in the first place, it could also intercept extra traffic from the R1 to spread the traffic load. At least people who wanted to go from Breda or Hasselt to Brussels wouldn't have to wait 2 hours to pass Antwerp.


----------



## Moravian

Some pictures from summer 2007 from the route E42 in Belgium between Mons (Friday afternoon...) and French border eastern from Lille:

https://picasaweb.google.com/106508291525457441555/E42InBelgium2007?authkey=Gv1sRgCLuKuMehmqDs2AE


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E34 / R11 Antwerpen*

It is planned to build a second beltway along the southeastern side of Antwerpen by converting the R11 into a motorway, mostly underground. 

Here's the proposed design for the E34-E313 / R11 interchange, a full turbine. It also appears that E34-E313 will be widened to 2x4 lanes.

Construction is planned for 2017-2018. 











At the same time, E34-E313 will be widened. The segment between R1 and R11 will remain as it is; 2x3 lanes with shoulder running. The segment between R11 and E34 interchange Ranst will be widened to 2x5 lanes with an additional inbound bus lane.


----------



## lambersart2005

...oh I love these brussels urban expressways  the northern and eastern segment of the r20 seem to be completely gridlocked every rush hour. Incredible traffic in the brussels region anyway!


----------



## Road_UK

When it moves the inner ringroad of Brussels is actually quite fun to drive on. Tunnel in...tunnel out...tunnel in...tunnel out....


----------



## Spookvlieger

.....when it moves, you found yourself the right choice of words there :lol:

Two recent aireals:

E40 in the country side of Brabant towards Liège:









E314 North of Leuven on the border between Brabant and Limburg. I can see those wind turbines in the distant on a clear day.










credits: https://www.facebook.com/FotogeniekVlaanderen


----------



## Spookvlieger

Here is another Expressway in Brussels. This one is in Eastern Brussels and is named R21. He enters at 2min in the video and leaves at 4 min in the video.





Some are all in tunnels like R20 wich runs underneath the Leopold II boulevard in West Brussels.


----------



## Spookvlieger

lambersart2005 said:


> Incredible traffic in the brussels region anyway!


It's pretty crazy but not that much. There are just too many cars in downtown Brussels for the the small streets to handle


----------



## Daviedoff

N44 from Aalter (E40) to Maldegem (N49-E34):


----------



## Glodenox

Found an old video (in Dutch) of the opening of the A10 (partially E40) motorway (Oostend-Brussels). I don't think it has been posted here yet.


----------



## Road_UK

I've never fully understood that road, even though I can dream it. Distance markers are on a countdown from Brussels to the French border, but when you are actually on the border there are still some 7 km left. Miscalculation?


----------



## Glodenox

Hmm, quite strange indeed. The last marker that I can see on street view shows a 5.5 km distance. That section is numbered as the A18 and at its intersection with the A10 it is at 46.8km.
One explanation could be that a certain segment was already built when they decided to go for a shorter route. I can somewhat understand that they'd prefer not to renumber the existing sections as it doesn't do any real harm to not start at 0km.
I tried looking for an explanation in the A18 page of wegen-routes.be, but I couldn't immediately find anything that would explain the situation.


----------



## Road_UK

They've opted for a different approach in Germany where the newly extended and diverted A61 to the Dutch border have been numbered into the minus figures, rather than renumbering the entire motorway.


----------



## Mateusz

Road_UK said:


> Will they ever extend the A19 to Veurne? I've found that a lot of locals use the A25 in France instead...


A19 ends quite awkwardly near Ieper.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Mateusz said:


> A19 ends quite awkwardly near Ieper.


in 2005 they decided the road will never be build. yet they are going to upgrade part of the N38 wich is now a 2x2 road with no divider towards poperinge untill the crossing with N8 where a new road shall connect towards Veurne.

However, Nimby's have been blocking the project for years so don't expect something will ever change to the current situation.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I've driven down that 2x2 N38 you speak of, strange road.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ Typically roads constructed in the 60ties and 70ties have these setup in Belgium.Probably there used to be a suicide lane in the middle and the road had hard shoulders and is now widened to a 2x2 road with no dividers.

In places where such roads have lower traffic volumes they have chosen a 2+1/1+2 set up in most cases though or deleted the entire suicide lane. I know several streches of road in Belgium that still have suicide lanes.

Former suicide lane road near my town, now a 1+1:

http://goo.gl/maps/kpG6f

same road but on this strecht higher speed limit and traffic volumes and now a 2x2 setup:

http://goo.gl/maps/aYVhS

Same road but now a 2+1/1+2 setup:

http://goo.gl/maps/t54xM


Another such 2X2 road in the neighbouring city. Just to make a point they are very very common 

http://goo.gl/maps/lTtXu


----------



## Glodenox

Nearby where I live, the suicide lane was replaced with a bus lane. It made the bus service a lot more stable in the morning and evening:

https://www.google.be/maps/preview#...1!2m3!1sEUXoBPsX4zTmNg3vnOPjlw!2e0!7e11&fid=5


----------



## Mateusz

DanielFigFoz said:


> I've driven down that 2x2 N38 you speak of, strange road.


I had a same feeling... I was like why the hell there is no divider!


----------



## DanielFigFoz

And it was completely dead as well!


----------



## Spookvlieger

that's not that common


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Huge pavement buckle on E34 west of Antwerpen.


----------



## Meurisse

Just a little bit worse than normal conditions...


----------



## Daviedoff

Part 1 of E25/E411 from Arlon to Brussel/Bruxelles:




 
Part 2 and 3 coming soon! :banana:


----------



## cougar1989

I will show you some pictures from my Roadtrip trough the EU+EFTA from 15/07/13 until 19/07/13.
A1 - A13 - A3 - A27 - N62


----------



## Daviedoff

E411 part 2 and 3:


----------



## Spookvlieger

E411 is in such a bad state hno: Wallonia needs to set money free to fix this road!


----------



## Penn's Woods

Random question:

What's a T-road? ( http://wegnummers.autosnelwegen.nl/wegen/belgie/xt0.html )


----------



## keokiracer

They all seem to be numbered cycle paths / footpaths. Not sure if that's it though.


----------



## Road_UK

Perhaps T-junction?


----------



## Spookvlieger

They include a variety of roads that sometimes are open or not open for motorised traffic. Some T-nummers are also Touristic routes. Mainly bycicle and pedestrian routes that have been layed out specifically to connect two urban centers split by e.g.: A motorway, a canal, a forest and industrial area ect... are also indicated with T.

In Brussels roads leading through the Zoniën Forest are indicated with T yet sometimes it suddenly changes to N. I have no idea why.

The T numbering looks like a mess and it looks like it needs a cleanup. Maybe they where initialy ment to be Touristic routes but their use has been forgotten overtime, also because Touristic routes are now indicated with another system wich is to be the same in the EUregio.









http://www.henri-floor.com/plaatjes/2010/08/28/foto64.jpg


----------



## Spookvlieger

Old N2 route. Again most parts old concrete. Strip mall like shops and houses scattered everywhere.

Assent-->Diest--->Herk-de-stad


----------



## piotr71

Sunset on E34.


----------



## Fargo Wolf

ChrisZwolle said:


> E313 in Hasselt, at opening in 1964 and today. Unfortunately many motorways in Belgium (and Germany) became such tree alleys without any connection to the landscape you're driving through.


I would surmise that it's to visually screen the motorway from areas next to said motorway. Though I can only speak for myself, I rather like it.  This is common near Vancouver, Canada, despite motorway expansion (Trans Canada Highway 1) there.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Night pictures of E313xE314 Lummen










Tipical urbanized country side of Belgium at night:


----------



## Redouane

When is Belgium gonna come with a new signage system? The current one is outdated, and alot of light's inside are broken. Making them unreadable at night..


----------



## Glodenox

I haven't heard anything yet about an update to the signage scheme, so I'm doubting we'll see anything being done about that soon.
As for the illuminated signs: those get fixed once in a while, usually a lot faster if someone reports the problem.


----------



## Redouane

Glodenox said:


> I haven't heard anything yet about an update to the signage scheme, so I'm doubting we'll see anything being done about that soon.
> As for the illuminated signs: those get fixed once in a while, usually a lot faster if someone reports the problem.


Yeah in Vlaanderen, have you ever been to Wallonie? Almost all sign's are broken there, and it looks like they really not give a shit about it..


----------



## Glodenox

Ah, that I don't know. It's been a while since I've been on a motorway in Wallonia at night. It does seem that the road maintenance in Wallonia is quite a problem. Seeing they like introducing "Marshall plans", they should have one for the motorways. But I fear that it'd just be a one-off then.


----------



## Road_UK

Time for the whole of Belgium to step into the 21st century though, and modernise their roadsigns. A new font perhaps, get rid of those insect-covered lamp-signs and replace them with illuminated foil, and make an extra effort with those road markings...


----------



## Redouane

Road_UK said:


> Time for the whole of Belgium to step into the 21st century though, and modernise their roadsigns. A new font perhaps, get rid of those insect-covered lamp-signs and replace them with illuminated foil, and make an extra effort with those road markings...


True, the signs are really outdated.. I mean even most country's in Africa have modern sign's.. 

Example: (Algeria)


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Redouane said:


> Yeah in Vlaanderen, have you ever been to Wallonie? Almost all sign's are broken there, and it looks like they really not give a shit about it..


They probably aren't reported.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^You'd think they'd be checked periodically.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Most countries have road inspectors that clear the road of debris and check malfunctions on a daily basis.


----------



## Spookvlieger

judging by the blown tires lying around on the sides on our highways.... :sad:


----------



## Brussels1

ChrisZwolle said:


> Most countries have road inspectors that clear the road of debris and check malfunctions on a daily basis.


When rolling on Europe's motorways I do not see the a big difference between Belgium and the other surrounding countries when it comes to maintenance.

On the Belgian motorway network in general I believe it is one of the most adequate in Europe. The problem during the last decade (s?) has been the maintanance but serious efforts are made to catch up, also in Wallonia which you must havce noticed if travelling through Belgium lately.


----------



## Road_UK

No I haven't.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Me neither, especially not in Wallonia and especially NOT on the Walloon part of the Brussels R0 and the E25/A26.

Some stretches have been redone of our highways in the recent years but only to see other stretches that where fine before now neglected...

And to come back to the Walloon part of the Brussels R0, it's a fucking disgrace to even call that a highway. You can't even drive 90km/h unless you want to wreck your car.

What I do notice is the gap between Germany and Belgium getting smaller. German highways are getting worse all the time...

To quote davidoff: this is a good part of highway and I wished every highway looked like this as standard:



Daviedoff said:


> E17 Kortrijk - Gent:


----------



## Thermo

The situation in Flanders has improved over the last years, no one can deny this. But the gap with other countries still exists. Luckily the improvements are still going on. If I remember correctly, in 2016 our highways should be at the same level as in other Western European countries. At least, that's what the Flemish ministry of infrastructure promised...

But what annoys me: all the attention goes to the road surface, while all the rest (roadsigns, crash barriers, etc) are forgotten. There are far too many old roadsigns still standing. They should be replaced with new ones with a totally new design, typeface, etc. That would make the 'look' of our highways a lot more modern. Because these oldfashioned roadsigns (many even broken, dirty,...) make our highway system look outdated. A new, modern road with old roadsigns or rusty crash barriers still doesn't look good.


----------



## Redouane

Thermo said:


> The situation in Flanders has improved over the last years, no one can deny this. But the gap with other countries still exists. Luckily the improvements are still going on. If I remember correctly, in 2016 our highways should be at the same level as in other Western European countries. At least, that's what the Flemish ministry of infrastructure promised...
> 
> *But what annoys me: all the attention goes to the road surface, while all the rest (roadsigns, crash barriers, etc) are forgotten. There are far too many old roadsigns still standing. They should be replaced with new ones with a totally new design, typeface, etc. That would make the 'look' of our highways a lot more modern. Because these oldfashioned roadsigns (many even broken, dirty,...) make our highway system look outdated. A new, modern road with old roadsigns or rusty crash barriers still doesn't look good.*


Can't agree more..


----------



## g.spinoza

> *Belgium: 130 cars crash in fog; at least 1 dead*
> 
> BRUSSELS (AP) — More than 130 vehicles were involved in three pileups at a highway in western Belgium in a dense morning fog Tuesday, leaving at least one dead and 76 injured.
> 
> Medical workers struggled to free injured passengers from the twisted metal of their vehicles for hours after the crash, troubled by continuing fog, which made emergency rescue by helicopter impossible.
> 
> The provincial governor, Carl Decaluwe, said one person had died, and that among the injured, five were in life-threatening condition while 11 sustained serious injuries.
> 
> The highway in Zonnebeke, linking the regional industrial hub of Kortrijk to nearby Ieper, was strewn with debris in three locations close to one another. The damp and cold conditions in early December often create fog, but drivers said it felt like a white wall of fog suddenly appeared, and immediately decreased virtually all visibility[...]


more here


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E19 Mechelen*

The E19 Bridge across the Leuven - Dijle Canal is wider than the San Francisco - Oakland Bay Bridge (eastern span). The San Francisco Bridge is 78.7 meters wide. The E19 bridge is 82.5 m wide.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Didn't they build it with a future rail alignment in place? There are several wide bridges and a wide ROW all the way north up to Berchem.


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## Spookvlieger

*A11 - U/C*

Promotion movie of the A11.
Needed for expansion of the Sea Port in Bruges.
The local roads are badly conjested:

(only Dutch but good visualisation)


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## Penn's Woods

A11 - that'll connect to the A11/E34 toward Antwerp? (Don't have time for the video...) Is there a map of this project?


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## Spookvlieger

Here is a plan. I'm afriad afther building this there will still be a missing between the newly A11 and the the A11 towards Antwerp.

The A11/E34 becomes the N 49 afther the intersection with the R4 in Ghent. It then becomes a local Expressway (speed limit may vary between 90 and 120 km/h) with 2X2 configuration and same level crossings, like Belgium has many.

The N49 continues towards Knokke-Heist. The new A11 will be connected with the N49 just before Knokke, in Westkapelle where the N376 (2x1) currently meets the N49. The way it looks the N376 in direction of the Sea port will remain as a normal road and be bypassed by the new A11 wich will follow and exact parrallel route untill it meets the N348 ,where it will split from the origional route N376. The new A11 will then divert towards the 'havenrandweg'. The havenrandweg will be reconstructed to a full motorway. Afther that it will connect to the A17/403 in Bruges.

From West to East the new A11 will be connected with the:
-A17/E403
- Zeelaan/N31 (extension of the A17, dual carage way without median, speed limit 70-90km/h)
- exit on the N348 near Dudzele
- N350 (the main connector to the RORO port of Sea Bruges)
-exit on the N300 near Ramskapelle
- Connection to the N49 near Westkapelle.

Obstructions:
-A tunnel under the section between the N376 and N374 south of Westkapelle. Both roads will not connect directly on the A11.

-A Bridge over the Leopold Canal and the Bangelroeke Canal (mainly only leisure today, little industrial traffic) wich run parallel.
-Bridge across the Boudewijn Canal (the main shipping canal between the Sea port of Bruges and the inland port of Bruges and mayor inalnd shipping route towards Ghent)
-In the same area two railways and numerous buildings and famers houses.


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## ChrisZwolle

*2014 road works*

137 kilometers of the Flemish motorway network will be renovated in 2014, in 23 separate work zones, totaling € 109.5 million.


----------



## bogdymol

I read an article on the internet stating that Belgium authorities want to tax the drivers depending on the amount of km they drive. The tax will be different, depending on the hour (7-9 a.m. and 16-18 will be more expensive) and the road type they drive. 

Here's the article: leblogauto.com (in French language).

Is this proposal really going to happen?


----------



## Glodenox

They're just doing a short test now on checking how technically feasible it is. No decision has been made yet. I don't really expect it'll get through as only the green party seems to be backing it and elections are coming up soon.

An article in English: http://www.deredactie.be/permalink/1.1865243


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Oosterweel Connection, Antwerpen*

Flemish newspaper GVA reports that the Oosterweel Connection, the completion of beltway R1, is the best solution for traffic problems in the city of Antwerpen, according to the 2000+ page draft EIS.

There were three major options;

* BAM alignment (Oosterweel)
* Meccano alignment
* Oosterweel North Alternative

All three variants are effective but the BAM/Oosterweel alternative is the best option. 

A final decision will possibly be made next Friday, according to GVA. It would be by far the largest road project in Belgium in 25 years.


----------



## sotonsi

bogdymol said:


> Is this proposal really going to happen?


This sort of thing comes up every few years in the UK. And in other Western European countries too (the EU seems keen on it long term, though even they realise that it is going to be a hard sell to get the populus to agree to cars being tracked, so member states keep floating it in the hope that someone will bite eventually). It always eventually falls flat on it's face.

I believe it is an idea to make money off of cars as fuel consumption decreases and alternate energy sources (electric, hybrid) get more popular. And also do a bit of demand spreading to give disincentive to drive at busy times (and on busy roads - certain roads might warrant a premium) - though quite why they haven't realised that driving at busy times is disincentive enough...

It's also a way of justifying Galileo that isn't "we can't trust those Americans to keep GPS on" paranoia/xenophobia/isolationism - Galileo would become the satellite system used to track position.


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> Flemish newspaper GVA reports that the Oosterweel Connection, the completion of beltway R1, is the best solution for traffic problems in the city of Antwerpen, according to the 2000+ page draft EIS.
> 
> There were three major options;
> 
> * BAM alignment (Oosterweel)
> * Meccano alignment
> * Oosterweel North Alternative
> 
> All three variants are effective but the BAM/Oosterweel alternative is the best option.
> 
> A final decision will possibly be made next Friday, according to GVA. It would be by far the largest road project in Belgium in 25 years.


I'm completely lost now if they'll build a tunnel or a bridge? I didn't even know they were still planning to close the R1 :dunno: I though they where now doing studies to convert the R11 into a full motorway wich would take a lot of traffic driving driving on the R1 today....


----------



## Meurisse

ChrisZwolle said:


> Flemish newspaper GVA reports that the Oosterweel Connection, the completion of beltway R1, is the best solution for traffic problems in the city of Antwerpen, according to the 2000+ page draft EIS.
> 
> There were three major options;
> 
> * BAM alignment (Oosterweel)
> * Meccano alignment
> * Oosterweel North Alternative
> 
> All three variants are effective but the BAM/Oosterweel alternative is the best option.
> 
> A final decision will possibly be made next Friday, according to GVA. It would be by far the largest road project in Belgium in 25 years.


IF they ever start on it... The first ideas of this new connection came around 1997... The proposal with a bridge was abandoned in 2008 due the public referendum.

You can folow this sage in our Belgian road section


----------



## Kanadzie

Having experienced the R0 I can agree R1 is badly needed and also R11 improvements  The Antwerp motorways though did seem to be well made, just too few for the area's needs.

I wonder though how a complete R1 would be signed, "Ring Antwerpen" already is on R0. Maybe... "Grootring Antwerpen" or I would like to say, "Antwerpsegrootring" ? Tweestring Antwerpen?


----------



## Meurisse

Kanadzie said:


> Having experienced the R0 I can agree R1 is badly needed and also R11 improvements  The Antwerp motorways though did seem to be well made, just too few for the area's needs. I wonder though how a complete R1 would be signed, "Ring Antwerpen" already is on R0. Maybe... "Grootring Antwerpen" or I would like to say, "Antwerpsegrootring" ? Tweestring Antwerpen?


R0 = ring Brussels 
R1 = ring Antwerp (now 3/4 round, Will be completed)
R2 = great ring Antwerp (only part between E34 and A12 with liefkenshoek scheldt tunnel)
R10 = singel city ringroad between city and R1
R11 = "krijgsbaan" city ringroad between E34/E313 and A12

So, oosterweel connection will just be R1, ring of Antwerp ;-)


----------



## Kanadzie

You're right, I was confused between R1 and R2, too much good Vlaamsebier on offer over there  I still have some Duvel and de Koninck I smuggled out of the country in my fridge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R1 Antwerpen*

The Flemish government has chosen to construct the Oosterweel Connection to complete the R1 ring road in Antwerpen.

Some interesting points;

* Merksem Viaduct will be replaced by a tunnel under the Albert Canal.
* tolls on all three motorway tunnels, but the Kennedy Tunnel will remain toll free for light vehicles.
* no truck ban in the Kennedy Tunnel, research shows this is counterproductive.
* the local Waasland Tunnel remains toll free
* construction is planned for 2016-2022
* cost: € 3.2 billion
* main tunnel: 2x3 lanes


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^ the tunnel will be 2x3 lanes while the current viaduct is 2x 4 lanes and traffic jams on the viaduct are frequent :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The tunnel under the Schelde River will feature 2x3 lanes. That's six more lanes crossing the river than the current situation.

It's unclear to me how many lanes the Albert Canal Tunnel will feature, I've read about 14 lanes, but I haven't seen any good designs.


----------



## Meurisse

joshsam said:


> ^^ the tunnel will be 2x3 lanes while the current viaduct is 2x 4 lanes and traffic jams on the viaduct are frequent :nuts:


 THE viaduct will be replaced by 2 x 3+2. At sportpaleis, together with a new exit it will be 18lanes

Main Scheldt tunnel is 2x3. Then it splits into 2 tunnels of 2x 2 each


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## Meurisse

joshsam said:


> ^^ the tunnel will be 2x3 lanes while the current viaduct is 2x 4 lanes and traffic jams on the viaduct are frequent :nuts:


updated images:



Meurisse said:


>


----------



## EPA001

Very interesting. But I do not understatement the third picture of the new situation. Where does the traffic from or to the North go? In the current situation that is clearly visible. I don't see it in the picture of the New situation? :dunno: Or am I messing something here?


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## Meurisse

I think, we did not see detailed plans yet:

2x 2lanes on the left and right will be the lanes towards Oosterweel, they will be laid on top of each other on the bottom of Albert Canal/Straatsburgdok towards the new exit 'Oosterweel' at Noordkasteel.

The central 2x 3 (or 4?) lanes in the middle will lead, also on top of each other towards North, exit 'Luchtbal'


----------



## EPA001

Meurisse said:


> I think, we did not see detailed plans yet:
> 
> 2x 2lanes on the left and right will be the lanes towards Oosterweel, they will be laid on top of each other on the bottom of Albert Canal/Straatsburgdok towards the new exit 'Oosterweel' at Noordkasteel.
> 
> The central 2x 3 (or 4?) lanes in the middle will lead, also on top of each other towards North, exit 'Luchtbal'


OK. I guess you are right and we will have to wait to see the further detailled plans.


----------



## Spookvlieger

I also have another question, how will ships gain acces to the Lobroek dock? In the rendering it seems they just cut off from the Albert Canal.

The Lobroek dock isn't used for much these days except for storing rotting ships and de industry around it doesn't need water acces.

Maybe recreational area?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Flemish government has chosen to construct the Oosterweel Connection to complete the R1 ring road in Antwerpen.
> 
> ....
> * tolls on all three motorway tunnels, but the Kennedy Tunnel will remain toll free for light vehicles.
> ....


Will someone going all the way around have to stop three times to pay tolls?


----------



## BenjiMan

I assume they will use a electronic tolling system


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^So only people who don't have the right pass (like...anyone from outside Belgium) will have to stop three times. :troll:

(Seriously, I gather from what I read around here that there isn't a pan-European tolling system yet.)


----------



## Meurisse

joshsam said:


> I also have another question, how will ships gain acces to the Lobroek dock? In the rendering it seems they just cut off from the Albert Canal.
> 
> The Lobroek dock isn't used for much these days except for storing rotting ships and de industry around it doesn't need water acces.
> 
> Maybe recreational area?


That dock isn't in use since a few years. It's also often no more than 1 or 2 meters deep because of (very) toxic slib... Today there are no ships in it at all.



Penn's Woods said:


> Will someone going all the way around have to stop three times to pay tolls?


And why would you do that? I think you'll have to pay 3 times. And it will probably an electronic toll systems. By 2016 Belgium will have a toll system for trucks so a little effort then to have toll on these 3 tunnels.


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## Penn's Woods

^^Why would I do that? I don't know. I hadn't seen a detailed plan when I wrote that. But judging from the detailed plan on page 4 of today's Standaard (PDF edition; can't find it elsewhere on the site), someone wanting to go from east of the city to the E34 towards Zelzate either hits all three tunnels or goes around the long way, south of the city.

EDIT: or am I misunderstanding: Are the "Oosterweeltunnels (in plaats van Lange Wapperbrug)" and "Tunnel in plaats van brug onder Albertkanaal" toll-free? I thought those two and the Nieuwe Scheldetunnel were the three Chris was referring to. But the plan only mentions a toll on the latter (and the Kennedy, and the Liefkenshoek, which is off the map.)


----------



## Meurisse

Toll only on the tunnels beneath scheldt (Kennedy, oosterweel, liefkenshoek)

Not clear about the tunnel beneath albertcanal


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## ChrisZwolle

The Federal police last night carried out massive checks on drivers on the A12 Brussels - Boom - Antwerp Motorway. Nearly a quarter of motorists were found to be over the legal drink-drive limit.

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieu..._20140216_alcoholcontrole_antwerpen__bijna_ee


----------



## Penn's Woods

Here's something:

http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20140221_00991465

"Vlaams minister van Mobiliteit Hilde Crevits (CD&V) heeft een nieuwe autosnelweg aangekondigd. De A11 wordt de ‘missing link’ tussen Brugge en Knokke-Heist. 

"Op 22 maart beginnen de werkzaamheden aan de nieuwe snelweg, die 12 kilometer lang is en in het najaar van 2017 moet af zijn. De A11 moet de haven van Zeebrugge beter ontsluiten, de veiligheid en leefbaarheid van de regio vergroten en vlot verkeer van en naar de kust mogelijk maken.

"De nieuwe snelweg zal het Vlaamse polderlandschap doorkruisen. Volgens Crevits zal dat gebeuren met respect voor de buurtbewoners, de landbouw en de natuur. Er is ook aan de fietsers gedacht. Dankzij 15 km nieuwe fietspaden zouden zij veilig van het ene naar het andere polderdorp moeten kunnen rijden, zonder dat de nieuwe snelweg een obstakel vormt.

"De minister belooft dat het Agentschap Wegen en Verkeer alle mogelijke inspanningen zal doen om de hinder te beperken. Vanaf eind 2015 wordt er echter grotere hinder verwacht. Om die te beperken, worden tunnels nooit gelijktijdig afgesloten. Ook zullen rijstroken zo weinig mogelijk versmald worden.

"Voor informatie heeft Crevits de website www.A11verbindt.be gelanceerd."

Someone else can translate and/or summarize.


----------



## keokiracer

Penn's Woods said:


> Someone else can translate and/or summarize.


_Flemish minister of Mobility Hilde CRevits (CD&V) has announced a new highway. The A11 will fill in the missing link between Brugge and Knokke-Heist

On March 22nd construction will commence on the new highway, which is 12 kilometers long and should be finished on the end of 2017. The A11 is being built to make the port of Zeebrugge better accessible by car/truck, improve the safety and livability of the area and provide smooth traffic from and to the shore.

The new highway will cross the Flemish polder-landscape. According to Crevits this will happen with respect for local inhabitants, agricultur and nature. Cyclists weren't forgotten either. Thanks to 15 kilometers of new cyclepaths they should be able to move from one village to the other withoutthe new highway forming an obstacle

The minister promises that the 'Agentschap voor Wegen en Verkeer' (literally: Agency for Roads and Traffic) will do everything to limit nuisance. Starting 2015 however, a lot of nuisance is expected. To limit this, tunnels will never be closed at the same time. The lanes open to traffic will also be made as wide as possible (preventing narrower lanes when possible)

For more information Crevits has opened the website www.A11verbindt.be._


----------



## Karnoit

A nice pix of the E25 highway


8/52 Leading Lines par Christian_Philippe, sur Flickr


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^For those who understand Dutch: http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20140221_00991251

I didn't watch the video, did read the text:

Veel van de dubbele rotondes in ons land zullen verdwijnen omdat ze nutteloos en zelfs gevaarlijk zijn. Dubbele rotondes zijn ronde punten met twee of meer rijvakken Sommige van die rotondes waren aangelegd om files te op te lossen, maar vaak zorgen ze voor nog meer file omdat mensen alleen maar de buitenste rijstrook durven nemen uit schrik dat ze anders gaan botsen met vrachtwagens of bussen. 

My rough translation: "Many of the double roundabouts in [Belgium] will disappear because they are unnecessary and even dangerous. Double roundabouts are roundabouts with two or more lanes. Some of the roundabouts were built to solve traffic jams but often the (cause?) more jams because people only drive in the outermost lane out of fear that otherwise they'd collide with trucks or buses."

Doesn't say what authority is going to eliminate them or cite any figures for its conclusions, though.

(Really, why am I the one who's posting stuff from the Standaard around here...?)


----------



## keokiracer

Penn's Woods said:


> (Really, why am I the one who's posting stuff from the Standaard around here...?)


I guess you're the only one that reads 'De Standaard'


----------



## Glodenox

^^ I don't really have the habit of immediately posting such things in here. I'll try to do that more often.


----------



## Meurisse

^^ Because I already posted it in our local section 

What they're about to do is to remove the painted lines on the double-lanes-roundabouts, no more than that. No plans to upgrade them to "turbo-roundabouts" so far...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

I commented on it in the U.S. thread where Penn's Woods also posted it; http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=111742740&postcount=2374

Basically, two-lane roundabouts (non-turbo roundabouts) perform poorly. This is because of the inefficient use of it and fear among motorist to use the left lane, so people who drive on the right lane may turn off right, could continue straight through or even turn left. This creates possible conflicts, especially if straight through traffic is heavy. 

Turning it into wide single lane roundabouts is a bit unorthodox, perhaps inspired by the huge unmarked traffic circles in Paris. 

Basically, three solutions are possible;
* turn it into a turbo roundabout. Leads to more efficient use and predictable behavior. Requires complete reconstruction if done properly.
* narrow the road to single lane just before the roundabout. Only possible with low volumes. Relatively cheap.
* turn it into a signalized intersection. Preferred if it is a busy road with a lot of through traffic. Substantial investment needed, plus operational costs of traffic lights.


----------



## Spookvlieger

N80 (2x2), 120km/h, roundabout just before Hasselt where it meets with ramps of the E313 is an extremely dangerous roundabout. It's a two lane roundabout with very heavy traffic.

On both sides of the roundabout waiting times can be 15mins or longer during rush hour; Collisions happen almost on a daily base and it won't be the first time I see people freaking out on that roundabout including road rage, leaving the vehicule ect ect...

this compilation shows the particular roundabout around 0:44 and you can easely see the problem.....people can't hold their lane...


----------



## sotonsi

ChrisZwolle said:


> Basically, three solutions are possible;
> * turn it into a turbo roundabout. Leads to more efficient use and predictable behavior. Requires complete reconstruction if done properly.
> * narrow the road to single lane just before the roundabout. Only possible with low volumes. Relatively cheap.
> * turn it into a signalized intersection. Preferred if it is a busy road with a lot of through traffic. Substantial investment needed, plus operational costs of traffic lights.


Or a fourth, which is a bit harder:
*develop a driving culture that doesn't get confused by two-lane roundabouts.

Two-lane roundabouts work in the UK, whereas Turbo roundabouts just confuse people (despite always being signalised, and typically very well marked as to what lane goes where, I've never been through one without seeing someone who is in the wrong lane). I like Turbo Roundabouts, but they are confusing for a nation taught to use multi-lane roundabouts properly.


----------



## Spookvlieger

sotonsi said:


> Or a fourth, which is a bit harder:
> *develop a driving culture that doesn't get confused by two-lane roundabouts.


I don't think 2 lane roundabouts confuse people. I think it's a matter of being attend and having awareness of the other people driving around you, and we all know in Belgian traffic you are on your own, you have to fight your way through the traffic and hold your ground. Courtesy in the traffic doesn't exist overhere. It's not just the roundabout.

The Belgian government started a campain for the driving behavior. It's about the fact that many people just drive wreckless.

"Minder zuur achter het stuur"

"less acidic behind the wheel" A better translation would be 'angry' or 'furious'.



















The campain against the Belgian road aggression and lack of following the rules of the road: (dutch only but you can see the 4 most annoying things you are guaranteed to run into when driving our roads)






Here is the radio edit about the campain: (Dutch only)


----------



## Glodenox

ChrisZwolle said:


> [...] They opened some shoulder running, but congestion is going out of control due to the lack of capacity expansion projects.


You make it sound as if the fact that there are hardly any expansion programs are the cause for the congestion. The main reason for congestion remains that there is more traffic  Capacity expansion could reduce that congestion though, that is true.



ChrisZwolle said:


> The 'Oosterweel Connection' in Antwerp seems to drag on forever. It seems close to construction from time to time, but never actually gets around to that. The same counts for the expansion of R0 around Brussels. Not to mention the horrible E313.


True that about the Oosterweel connection. There is still some progress, but it's going slow and costing more and more.
The R0 expansion has been cut up in two segments, split at the Vilvoorde viaduct. The eastern section has been researched last year, the northern section is now under research. For the eastern section, they currently predict that the work will start in 2016, which doesn't seem that bad to me. I couldn't find a prediction for the northern segment yet.

EDIT: by the way, I find this page (in Dutch) to be very handy for a quick overview of all the projects: http://www.wegenenverkeer.be/stand-van-zaken.html


----------



## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> ^^ It's not an extension of the existing A11. The new sections runs from N31 to _Westkapplle_ (12km; OSM).
> 
> 
> 
> I've no idea if the A11 gap will ever been closed, for instance by upgrading the N49!?


Ah. And they're calling it the A11, not the E34?


----------



## Penn's Woods

Glodenox said:


> EDIT: by the way, I find this page (in Dutch) to be very handy for a quick overview of all the projects: http://www.wegenenverkeer.be/stand-van-zaken.html


All the projects in Flanders. What about Wallonia and Brussels?


----------



## Road_UK

To them that's not Belgium. That's France and some obscure city the Flemish have a few interests in


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wallonia has much less congestion. But they are widening E42 to six lanes between Charleroi and Liège. 

As I understand, the eastern bypass of Liège has also been put forward recently. It has been planned since the 1970s.


----------



## Glodenox

Road_UK said:


> To them that's not Belgium. That's France and some obscure city the Flemish have a few interests in


Wait, what the hell is wrong with you? That's totally uncalled for! I never said that was a list of all projects in Belgium. And I'm often improving Google Maps in Brussels and have already sent several mails with questions or remarks to the Brussels and Walloon administrations, so you couldn't be more wrong.
Isn't it normal that I'm more interested in what happens in my neighbourhood? Those are the works I can easily take a look at myself. Also, I'm equally interested in what is happening in Bruges (for example) than what is happening in most parts of Wallonia: not very.
Besides, another site I use often is http://www.mobielbrussel.irisnet.be/ which has a map with all the projects for Brussels.
For Wallonia I sometimes use http://trafiroutes.wallonie.be/trafiroutes/maptempsreel/ but I haven't found a site yet where they show planned construction works in detail.


----------



## Road_UK

Easy sir, it was a joke. No need to be so defensive.


----------



## Glodenox

Sorry. I shouldn't have lashed out like that, but I felt insulted. It's just that I'm getting sick of such remarks that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anyway, let's hope this didn't kill the thread again.


----------



## De Klauw

MichiH said:


> ^^ It's not an extension of the existing A11. The new sections runs from N31 to _Westkapplle_ (12km; OSM).
> 
> 
> 
> I've no idea if the A11 gap will ever been closed, for instance by upgrading the N49!?


It will. But it's more a long term project. Every few years an existing traffic light controlled intersection is replaced by a bridge. Though things are delayed quite much. The last thing that happened was the new exit in Moerbeke in 2010. For the upcoming years 3 bridges are planned: in the Stroomstraat in Bassevelde, the Sint-Laureinsesteenweg (N455) in Balgerhoeke and the Stoepestraat (N448) in Assenede. Nowadays there are still 12 traffic lights between Antwerp and Knokke. In 2019 there will be 9. In 1991 there were 23 traffic lights. So things improved a lot already. 

In 2019 the new exit in Kaprijke is planned, eliminating another traffic light. And then the other traffic lights will follow soon. 

Between Westkapelle (the new A11) and Maldegem the road is different. That's an old transformed _steenweg_ with lots of crossing with no traffic lights. The limit is 90 km.h. But it's not very unpleasant to drive there because traffic is not bothered by the outcomming streets. 



This is how it should be within a year or 10:


----------



## De Klauw

BTW: I wouldn't say nothing improved over the years. Though technically the N31 is not a highway all the traffic lights disappeared the last 5 or 10 years. Only one left, which will also be upgraded next year. So it's now a smooth semi-highway with a speed limit of 90 (because it runs basically through Bruges). So it's a good connextion between the upcomming A11 and the E40/E403. Coastal traffic from Antwerp and beyond will likely use this road a lot in the future.

And there's also the R4-Zuid. The completion of the beltway of Ghent. Also quite a large project. 

The new Lummen interchange is also worth mentioning. 



In the coming years lot's of things are planned: 

Flanders:
-Oosterweelverbinding: completion of the Antwerp beltway 
-R0: widening of the Brussels beltway
-N74: connection of the existing N74 with the E314 (around Houthalen-Helchteren)
-R4-East and -West: upgrading the existing expresways into semi-highways with no traffic lights (this is a big project. Construction will start quite soon and things should be completed around 2022)
-N60-link to Wallonia near Ronse
-Upgrade of N8 Ieper-Veurne
-Tunnel near Halle to connect the E429 with the R0
-long term project the upgrading of the E34/A11 (as mentioned in a previous post)
-long term project: another long term project is the upgrade of the A12 Brussels-Antwerp

There is also the N44 which also will be upgraded from a dangerous expressway (with lot's of traffic lights) to a semi-highway with no traffic lights. But that's currently just a plan and a study. 

Another planned project is the A102/R11bis: a bypass connecting the intersection Antwerpen-Noord with Wommelgem. This should be a long tunnel of 12 km long. And extensions are planned to the E19 (also a tunnel). I have to say I do not believe this project will ever be build. 



Wallonia:

-Upgrade of the N5 to France
-Widening of the E42
-Planned: the R7 east of Liège


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## Penn's Woods

Please see first photo:

http://gallery.autosnelwegen.net/BE-A18.html

Exonym questions (for Dutch-speakers)

1) Does anyone call Calais "Kales" any more?
2) I thought it was Duinkerke*n*?


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## Road_UK

Penn's Woods said:


> Please see first photo:
> 
> http://gallery.autosnelwegen.net/BE-A18.html
> 
> Exonym questions (for Dutch-speakers)
> 
> 1) Does anyone call Calais "Kales" any more?
> 2) I thought it was Duinkerke*n*?


1: No, nobody. Calais has never really been considered a part of French-Flanders, and the person who came up with that name might have been shot.

2: That part of French-Flanders is also a cultural part of the Belgian province of West-Flanders. Everything is "...kerke" there. 

Added point: Steenvoorde is in France. It's called Steenvoorde on both sides of the border.


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## Penn's Woods

^^http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord-Pas-de-Calais#Steden

Obviously, one shouldn't trust Wikipedia.


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## Road_UK

Sure, administration wise you can add anything. But Calais has nothing in common with French-Flemish towns and city's, and intends to lean more towards Picardy.


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## Penn's Woods

^^My point was that whoever put that article together recognized (or made up) a slew of Dutch names for places in N-P-de-C.


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## ChrisZwolle

I've never seen Dowaai, Kamerijk and Valencijn written as such before. Probably some very old exonyms that are not in use anymore.

Atrecht has some historic value for the Treaty of Arras (Vrede van Atrecht) in 1482. But I haven't seen it written or called 'Atrecht' in modern day context.

Some exonyms are more common in Flanders than the Netherlands, for example the French city of Lille has a Dutch exonym (rough translation actually) as 'Rijsel'. This is very common exonym in Flanders, but less so in the Netherlands. I'm pretty sure most Dutch would think that Rijsel is some place in Belgium. I also believe many Dutch think Mons / Bergen and Tournai / Doornik are separate cities.


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## Penn's Woods

Lille, Lyon and Marseille used to be "Lisle," "Lyons," and "Marseilles" in English.


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## Thermo

Some (new) bike bridges (and other cycling infrastructure) in Flanders:

N31 (Brugge)






































N75 (Hasselt - Dilsen) (quoted from the Belgian forum)



Ivo said:


> Klassiek zicht vanaf de fietsbrug richting viaduct:
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> De aansluiting van het fietspad op het viaduct is niet echt fietsvriendelijk (om niet te zeggen: levensgevaarlijk!) hno: :nuts: :
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> Weg naar Maasmechelen, richting viaduct. Links, waar de fietser staat, de aansluiting met het nieuwe fietspad naar de fietsbrug:
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Ivo said:


> *Update 8 november 2014*
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> Het viaduct en de N75 zijn open in alle richtingen. Er zijn geen omleidingen meer:
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## Penn's Woods

Google oddity:

https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=50.521299,4.194374&spn=0.008076,0.021136&t=m&z=16

Can one in fact go from the A501 northbound to the A7/E19 northbound? You need to zoom in another notch to see the ramp at all, and then it's dashed. But on the imagery, it's got a couple of vehicles using it. Has it been closed since the pics were taken?


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## Spookvlieger

Streetview pictures date back from July 2013 so it was open back then...


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## Kanadzie

It seems absurdly common fatal truck accidents in that area probably even the E19
I remember one when I was there and seen some on this site since


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## ChrisZwolle

Lots of ugly crashes today.

E34 at Zoersel.









E17 at Aalbeke.









E34 at Zelzate.


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## Suburbanist

When will they reopen A601 in Liège?


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## ChasingCars

ChrisZwolle said:


> Lots of ugly crashes today.



And lorries are involved in all of them...again.


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## Spookvlieger

Suburbanist said:


> When will they reopen A601 in Liège?





> Pour des raisons de sécurité, les autoroutes A601 et A601.926 (entre HERSTAL et JUPRELLE) ont dû être fermées en urgence.
> Les déviations se font via l'échangeur de VOTTEM.


That's the only message I could find and it dates back of December 2014. My guess is the Walloon government doesn't have the money (or don't want to have) to renovate this road. The viaducts in this road look like a total mess with cracks and concrete falling off. They are in total disrepair. The road will probably stay closed for a very long time.(read: years if not forever)

meanwhile on google maps, they scrapped the road out of existence:


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## Kanadzie

It's curious they made that road in the first place. It's a nice short cut, but only a little bit shorter...


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## Spookvlieger

Acces roads at VOTTEM are extremely small and trucks are almost the same width as the lanes. The northbound lane (towards Hasselt/Antwerp) at VOTTEM also has a sharp bend at the beginning that causes traffic to slam the brakes rather hard. There is almost no space to merge because of the brigde just before the northbound exit. This gives a lot of traffic slowing down causing jams at VOTTEM. I drove their just this monday and around 7PM when I was returning from Köln, I found myself in very slow traffic at VOTTEM and once past VOTTEM there was free flowing traffic.


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## Kanadzie

Yeah especially with the standard cloverleaf design
But they could have just made Vottem interchange properly 

Oh well hopefully they will fix the road properly. But it seems so crazy to call that thing an autoroute, it is just an exit ramp :lol:


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## Spookvlieger

I know, it should have gotten a B number, like the other highway stubs in Belgium. There is another such road in Liège: A604. Also should have gotton a B number.

But there are more short roads with 3-digit A number in Belgium: A501 and A503 for instance.

A501 infact is almost Identical in purpose of the A 601


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## ChrisZwolle

It was designed in the early 1960s as the Antwerpen - East Belgium motorway. It opened in 1964 from Hasselt to the German border. 

At that time E314 to the Dutch border wasn't completed yet, so this was the main route to (southern) Germany from Antwerpen. As they forecasted high truck volumes, this little A601 made a lot of sense to relieve the Vottem cloverleaf, which is a simple cloverleaf with no C/D lanes on either E40 or E313.


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## sotonsi

joshsam said:


> There is another such road in Liège: A604. Also should have gotton a B number.


It was meant to be R7.


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## Thorum

A601 should reopen once the Haut-Sarts industrial area starts expanding.


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## Spookvlieger

I read somewhere they wanted an extra exit on the A601 for Haut-Sarts but i guess that won't happen now.


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## De Klauw

joshsam said:


> I know, it should have gotten a B number, like the other highway stubs in Belgium. There is another such road in Liège: A604. Also should have gotton a B number.
> 
> But there are more short roads with 3-digit A number in Belgium: A501 and A503 for instance.
> 
> A501 infact is almost Identical in purpose of the A 601



B numbers are always given to acces roads to highways (the exit of a A/E numbered road to a N numbered road). Not a single B number is given to a connection between two A/E roads. I think that's why the A601 has a A number rather than a B number. (Also: most B numbered roads are not highways, though some are: like B401).

A604 on the other hand indeed should have a B number. But as sotonsi said, that road never intended to be a local acces road. It supposed to be part of the R7 with connections to other highways.


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## Spookvlieger

My commute;

Featuring local, regional, national roads and highways.
Featuring roads with all kinds of surface, from new smooth asphalt and concrete to old crumbling asphalt and 50 year old bumpy concrete slab roads

Direactions and main roads are named in the video.


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## Spookvlieger

R71 Hasselt.
Today I made a short trip around this ringroad. I believe this is the first video online of this Ringroad.


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## ChrisZwolle

*Liège*

I recorded a video of the former transit route through Liège. For a long time there was no bypass for north-south traffic from Maastricht to Luxembourg, so E25 traffic had to go through the city. This is quite a quick route through Liège, it took me only 10 minutes to get from A25 to E25. It's probably even faster than taking E40 / E25 around the city.


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## verreme

^^ Didn't you shoot a video of this very route back when you started in this business?


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## ChrisZwolle

I think so, probably with my photo camera 8 years ago or so.


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## ChrisZwolle

E34 pavement has buckled near the Dutch border.


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## Penn's Woods

I would eat any cookie as a dessert or snack, not breakfast. I do have a jar of that speculoos cookie butter stuff (which I suspect Trader Joe's, which is a quirky store, actually invented); bought it out of curiosity because I knew what speculoos was. It is good and I use it occasionally as a spread. But one jar has lasted months.
You can find actual speculoos cookies but it's a bit of a specialty item you're not going to find in an average supermarket.


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## Kanadzie

^^
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculoos


> In the area of Europe centered on Eeklo, Belgium, local workers had long known that a sandwich made in the morning with butter and speculoos cookies would develop a spread-like consistency by lunchtime.[3]
> 
> In 2008, two competitors entered a contest on the Belgian television show, The Inventors (de Bedenkers), with a spread made from speculoos cookies[3][4] — Els Scheppers, who reached the semi finals, and the team of chef Danny De Mayer and Dirk De Smet, who weren't selected as finalists. Spreads made from crushed Speculoos cookies would subsequently go into production by three separate companies, and by the time they arrived in Belgian supermarkets, Speculoos spread caused a sensation,[3] taking the "Benelux market by storm."[4]
> 
> The companies manufacturing the spread were Biscuiterie Willems, Vermeiren Princeps and Lotus Bakeries of Belgium — with Lotus Bakeries subsequently claiming exclusive rights, having purchased the recipe from contestant Scheppers of the television competition.[3] The two competitors, Scheppers as well as De Mayer & De Smet, had presented nearly identical speculoos-based spread recipes, with the latter claiming to hold a patent.[4] De Mayer/DeSmet's recipe was marketed beginning in November 2007 as Speculla, and Scheppers recipe by Lotus Bakeries arrived in early spring 2008 as Speculoospasta. Lotus subsequently also purchased the De Mayer/De Smet patent.
> 
> A two-year patent battle ensued between Lotus and Biscuiterie Willems[4] and in January 2011, Lotus Bakeries' patent was nullified[3][5] by the Commercial Court of Ghent (Belgium),[4] which discovered the recipe had been posted on an internet website, Oma Wapsie (Grandma Wapsie), since 2002.[6][7]


Eeklo can be accessed by ring (partially completed) R43 from E34 motorway, ergo on-topic post


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## Red85

Kanadzie said:


> ^^
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculoos
> 
> 
> Eeklo can be accessed by ring (partially completed) R43 from E34 motorway, ergo on-topic post


Specul*aa*s is better.


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## Penn's Woods

I know both words exist; is there a difference or are they regional terms for the same thing?


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## ChrisZwolle

*E403 Tournai - Brugge*

I took a little detour in the way back from Spain, in order to clinch the entire Belgian motorway network. The only major section I haven't driven yet is now E40 (Brussel - Gent). 

Here's E403, also known as A17, which runs from Tournai along Kortrijk and Roeselare to Brugge.

The Flemish part is generally in excellent condition, the Walloon part is mediocre, though not as bad as some other motorways I drove (E25, E42). There are six lanes from E17 to Roeselare. E403 carries a decent amount of trucks.


E403-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-7 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-9 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-10 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-11 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-14 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-17 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-20 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-22 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-26 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-29 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-32 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-36 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-40 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-43 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-45 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-47 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-48 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-50 by European Roads, on Flickr


E403-52 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Spookvlieger

Speculaas is a hard cookie with little herbs in it. And speculoos is a thicker softer viarant with a lot of herbs added.... It's essentially two different things. Speculoos is like they made it in old days, in the middle ages. Speculaas is the finer modern variant. Speculoos is something you buy in the local bakery, sepculaas is what you buy in the supermarket


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## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> I took a little detour in the way back from Spain, in order to clinch the entire Belgian motorway network. The only major section I haven't driven yet is now E40 (Brussel - Gent).
> 
> Here's E403, also known as A17, which runs from Tournai along Kortrijk and Roeselare to Brugge.
> 
> The Flemish part is generally in excellent condition, the Walloon part is mediocre, though not as bad as some other motorways I drove (E25, E42). There are six lanes from E17 to Roeselare. E403 carries a decent amount of trucks.
> 
> 
> E403-47 by European Roads, on Flickr


I think it's good that with reconstruction of the roads in Flanders with the new road budget they are also adding concrete barriers again. I really like the continious poored concrete barriers.


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## ChrisZwolle

*E34*

Repaving E34 between Lille* and Zoersel. Hats off to these guys working the asphalt in this heat.

This kind of carriageway-wide repaving provides the smoothest and best-looking pavement, with no seams.



















* Lille is a town in Flanders. The French city of Lille is generally referred to as Rijsel in Flanders.


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## piotr71

I will experience smoothness of this stretch in couple of weeks


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## ChrisZwolle

*A601*

Abandoned (?) A601 near Liège.


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## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> Abandoned (?) A601 near Liège.


I guess so, nearly closed for a half year now. Give a few years and weeds will have cracked open the bad pavement and the road will be totally useless. the right lane was also 'cut' off for traffic by a full white line since last year;


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## ChrisZwolle

Trucking in Belgium. 5 lanes occupied by trucks. Nice spot by _jdb2_










There is new signage at this location:


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## piotr71

I am pretty certain I've already seen those signs in April, haven't I? 
(have to check my SD card )


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## Meurisse

piotr71 said:


> I am pretty certain I've already seen those signs in April, haven't I?
> (have to check my SD card )


They've installed them a week or two ago. The started with these new signs on the Antwerp Ring last year (first at 'Luchtbal/Merksem and exit of E19/A12). Now all signs are replaced a think


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## Spookvlieger

Part of the N3 I filmed:


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## ChrisZwolle

*speed limits*

It is planned to reduce the general speed limit in Flanders from 90 to 70 km/h by 2017. Already about two-thirds of the 'Gewestwegen' operate under such a speed limit. Rural Flanders is one of the most urbanized regions in Europe, with lots of ribbon development and scattered housing along the roads. 

Currently, 5188 km of these roads already operate under the 70 km/h regime. The remaining 2683 km of roads have a 90 km/h speed limit. The minister of mobility for Flanders wants to allow 90 km/h only on roads with a median.

This doesn't apply to motorways, and also seems to exclude divided, four-lane highways which also have a 120 km/h speed limit in Belgium, regardless if they are access-controlled or not.

http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386895


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## Spookvlieger

The 90km/h zones on gewestwegen that are not on 2x2 divided by a median are very rare anyways and are just small stretches of roads that contain no or very little housing.

The main thing of this new rule is to outlaw the forest of signs on Flemish roads. They want to remove all 70km/h signs afther the 'build' up signs and afther crossings. (The general rule in Flanders is still that if the 70km/h sign is not repeated afther a crossing, a side street or a build up area sign, the limit becomes 90km/h)


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## Suburbanist

this will be confusing 

I like the reassurances of speed signs in Belgium and I wish Netherlands followed suit, with less "zones" and more "after every entry point" regulations.


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## Spookvlieger

How can it be confusing? Inside a build up zone _(indicated by signs F1a/F1b and F3a/F3b)_ you drive 50 unless otherwise stated (_30km/h zones, 20km/h zones, woonerf,...)_ outside build up zone you drive 70 unless otherwise stated with a sign that says 7/0 or 90, depicts an 'autoweg' _(F9 and F11 signs can either be 90 as indicated or 120 if not indicated by sign)_ or a 'highway' sign _(F5 and F7 signs always 120 unless otherwise indicated)_


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## Suburbanist

^^ It is confusing because Wallonia has different rules and this can unleash the floodgates of hell in Europe: regional or even local blanket speed limits. Then, you need to check a master-table before driving through other provinces/sates etc.


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## Spookvlieger

They'll follow just like Flanders follows The Netherlands.
Allready some things are differend in Wallonia. Flanders goes with The Netherlands and builds cycle paths in red.
In Wallonia cycle paths are in green.-not that Wallonia has much of cycle culture-
Green cycle paths where I've spotted them first many years ago: 

today I see more and more green cycle paths in Wallonia

https://www.google.be/maps/@50.6935...4!1sruYhZ0khI7gsPIoUAZokXg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.be/maps/@50.7092...4!1spEIZsJOHVjs2WggAHZu6tQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

------------------------------------------------------

On the somewhat same matter, Wallonia and Flanders have now an almost completely seperated road funding and Flanders has differend views on how to do things and will continue to do so. The national level has become even less important. Give it a few decades and Flanders wil have a differend road system to the one in Wallonia.


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## Stefvh

Regionalisation of Road Rules was never meant to facilitate our lives.

If only it was just for roads...


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## ukraroad

It sometimes even seens that they are going to become two big counties which gonna quarrel with each other


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## Thermo

I've heard '_wegen en verkeer_' (Flemish road infrastructure agency) is thinking about a complete redesign of the road sings (meaning a new design and typeface for all roadsigns). 

I really hope they do. The road signs could use an update/modernization.


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## Glodenox

They're already trying out some new things like the upward arrows on overhead signs, so it wouldn't surprise me if that rumour happens to be true. Generally speaking, I think the road signs are already quite well designed, but there is room for improvement.


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## ChrisZwolle

Repaved E19 near Mechelen.


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## ChrisZwolle

The SOS phones along Flemish motorways will be discontinued. The system cost is € 800,000 per year but they were used only 3172 times in 2014. That means a cost of € 250 per call. There are 1350 SOS phones along Flemish motorways.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnen...ert-voor-praatpalen-langs-Vlaamse-wegen.dhtml


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## Kanadzie

Thermo said:


> I've heard '_wegen en verkeer_' (Flemish road infrastructure agency) is thinking about a complete redesign of the road sings (meaning a new design and typeface for all roadsigns).
> 
> I really hope they do. The road signs could use an update/modernization.


I thought they were pretty nice and clear and I have rusty flemish skills 

I liked the plastic-illuminated ones you see around Antwerpen (partly as some proclaim Boom), they were dirty and old but it was something I had never seen before but it gives a nice look at night. Mind you spending the power sounds crazy but the Doel can make plenty kilowatts for them anyhow


----------



## -Pino-

^^ The power will be alright, it's having to change light bulbs every now and then. I've had too many experiences of driving in Belgium at night and having issues because of illumination problems in these signs. Though the advent of LEDs could improve that.

Speaking of renewal of signs in Flanders, the Antwerp ring road has seen some experimental gantry signs in the past year or so, which are a great improvement. Would be great if that modernisation could somehow be continued to a broader modernisation of the other directional signs on the motorways (some quick thoughts that I once prepared here). But equally, the symbols used on warning and prohibition signs could be modernised. Think of modernisations had in neighbouring countries, where the pedestrians on signs no longer wear hats, trains no longer have smoke plumes and cars have moved on from 1960s vintage. So looking forward to learn what might be upon us!


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## Meurisse

A lof of signs have been renewed last weeks. All of them on the Antwerp Ring, E313, E17, ...


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Vlaams Gewest (Belgium) from Antwerpen to Brecht 19.08.2015 Timelapse x4


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Brecht (Belgium) to Oosterhout (Netherlands) 19.08.2015 Timelapse x4


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving from Lille (France) to Gent (Belgium) 18.08.2015 Timelapse x4


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## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Gent (Belgium) from Zwartegat to Gent-Centrum 18.08.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## Ale92Milano_SpA

Driving through Vlaams Gewest (Belgium) from Gent to Brugge 18.08.2015 Timelapse x4


----------



## DSzumaher

Rallye du Soleil Wallonne 2015

SS1: driving on a flat terrain before approaching Ardennes





SS2: uphill finish at the _friterie_ 





(after snack) SS3: downhill (by car, not skis ) with manual settings





SS4: between the river and the railway line






The rally finished on position... unimportant.


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## verreme

^^ Amazing signwork as usual!


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## DannyBoy85

Apparently the N5/E420 from Charleroi to the French border will be upgraded to a dual carriageway in some parts (missing links).

The project has almost been approved by the Walloon transportation and infrastructure minister Carlo Di Antonio.

I am not able to put an external link to the press.


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## Meurisse

we started a thread on this project in our Belgian secion:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1862555



> *Un accord pour la E420*
> 
> S.Ta. Publié le lundi 12 octobre 2015 à 20h37 - Mis à jour le mardi 13 octobre 2015 à 06h54
> 
> C’est sans doute le dossier le plus discret actuellement sur la table du gouvernement wallon. Il faut dire qu’il est sensible. La construction du chaînon manquant autoroutier de l’axe Rotterdam-Marseille, entre Couvin et Charleroi est en passe de devenir une réalité… Théorique. Tant du côté des cabinets ministériels wallons concernés (Di Antonio et Prévot) que du côté des bourgmestres des communes traversées par le projet (Gerpinnes et Ham-sur-Heure/Nalinnes) on se tait dans toutes les langues. Il mine depuis plus de trente ans cette région du sud de Charleroi où depuis le début des années 80 on a construit à tout va, empêchant de réaliser un projet autoroutier sur lequel la Belgique a pris des engagements.
> 
> Si au fil des ans, de nombreux projets sont venus provoquer la colère des riverains de la N5 (axe Charleroi-Charleville-Mézières) qui ne veulent pas voir une autoroute passer dans leur jardin, le dernier en date, proposé par le ministre wallon de l’aménagement du territoire, à savoir le "trident light" qui vise à organiser un contournement du complexe du Bultia (c’est la commune d’Ham-sur-Heure qui devra digérer l’impact), un renforcement de la N5 (lui donner un caractère autoroutier), une liaison vers Marcinelle qui relie la N5 à la A503 d’un côté et une autre vers Loverval (la commune de Gerpinnes est impactée) vers la Blanche borne et Bouffioulx pour rejoindre le R3.
> 
> Les riverains de la N5 vont certainement se réveiller
> 
> Moyennant sans doute un certain nombre de modifications, c’est ce dernier projet qui devrait être validé par l’exécutif wallon, peut-être cette semaine. Si le tracé passera en grande partie par des bois, il est évident qu’un certain nombre d’expropriations immobilières devront avoir lieu. Les quartiers des Bruyères (Marcinelle) et des Morlères (Loverval-Gerpinnes) retiennent leur souffle. Un autre problème concernait certaines zones naturelles classées. On voit mal l’association "Charleroi South Airpur" (Ham-sur-Heure/Nalinnes) rester inactive, tout comme l’association "Nos villages" (Gerpinnes) qui par le passé, se sont créées pour empêcher l’arrivée de la nouvelle autoroute sur leurs terres, la préférant plutôt chez les autres et inversement. La fin d’un dossier de longue haleine ? On attend de voir…


----------



## Kanadzie

> bourgmestres


such curious Belgian French words


----------



## DannyBoy85

Kanadzie said:


> such curious Belgian French words


It's a word used for the word "mayor" in the French-speaking part of Belgium (Wallonia). These are some vocabulary differences such as:

- berme centrale (the divider in the middle of the road) - glissière in France
- bande de circulation (traffic lane) - voie de circulation in France
- bande des pneus crevés (shoulder lane) - bande d'arrêt d'urgence in France
- ring (beltway) - périphérique in France


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ I figured, it seems Dutch / German inspiration.
Bande de pneus creves is hilarious :lol:

In Canada we have some other ones
- terre-plein for the median divider
- voie (traffic lane)
- accotement (shoulder lane)
No Canadian city with significant francophone population has a beltway so no word exists :lol:


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## Suburbanist

Has A601 been reopened?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

No. They closed the motorway because the condition of pavement is too bad for safe travel. It is not known when there is money for maintenance, so it could be a while before it reopens.


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> No. They closed the motorway because the condition of pavement is too bad for safe travel. It is not known when there is money for maintenance, so it could be a while before it reopens.


I asked because Google Maps now shows the road as opened again (instead of dashed out as a month ago)


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## DannyBoy85

Suburbanist said:


> I asked because Google Maps now shows the road as opened again (instead of dashed out as a month ago)


 I contacted the M.E.T. last year and they said it's not likely to be opened again.

Furthermore, the extension project for the Hauts-Sarts zoning has been changed. Originally, the A601 was supposed to be used as a new exit but is has been ruled out.

As a Walloon citizen, I'm really disappointed by the government at how they handle roads and motorways. The network is really in bad shape. And it's not likely to become better soon.


----------



## DannyBoy85

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ I figured, it seems Dutch / German inspiration.
> Bande de pneus creves is hilarious :lol:
> 
> In Canada we have some other ones
> - terre-plein for the median divider
> - voie (traffic lane)
> - accotement (shoulder lane)
> No Canadian city with significant francophone population has a beltway so no word exists :lol:


Is there still the tendency to eliminate all English words in the French language in Canada?


----------



## DannyBoy85

ChrisZwolle said:


> No. They closed the motorway because the condition of pavement is too bad for safe travel. It is not known when there is money for maintenance, so it could be a while before it reopens.


In Wallonia, there is no money for anything.


----------



## Thermo

^^ What about the famous "_Plan Routes_" of the Walloon government? Has it stopped? Is there any result?


----------



## ukraroad

What is invested better: North or south? If North, then the southern must be invested. Plus few motorways are u/c


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## DannyBoy85

Thermo said:


> ^^ What about the famous "_Plan Routes_" of the Walloon government? Has it stopped? Is there any result?


The "Plan Route" has helped to enlarge the E42 to 3 lanes in most parts and renovate some viaducts (Cheratte, Beez).

However, it's a drop in the ocean compared to the renovation works the network needs.

I heard that a new plan is in project for 2017.


----------



## DannyBoy85

ukraroad said:


> What is invested better: North or south? If North, then the southern must be invested. Plus few motorways are u/c


Flanders invests better than Wallonia. Since regions are responsible for road infrastructure you must consider it as two separate countries.

The investments in Flanders have no impact on Wallonia and since Wallonia budget is bad you can't expect road to be better here.


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## ChrisZwolle

Wallonia needs better maintenance, while Flanders needs more capacity. There haven't been a lot of capacity additions over the past 20 years, and Antwerp and Brussels are extremely congested. The road network also means that most traffic has to use the R0 or R1 to travel between provinces, regions or internationally.


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## DannyBoy85

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wallonia needs better maintenance, while Flanders needs more capacity. There haven't been a lot of capacity additions over the past 20 years, and Antwerp and Brussels are extremely congested. The road network also means that most traffic has to use the R0 or R1 to travel between provinces, regions or internationally.


 Surprisingly, the contrary has been done. Wallonia added an extra lane on the E42 while Flanders should do it on the E313 (from what I’ve read because I have never been to Antwerp).
And Flanders renovated the surface of some roads while Wallonia should really do it.


----------



## ukraroad

DannyBoy85 said:


> Surprisingly, the contrary has been done. Wallonia added an extra lane on the E42 while Flanders should do it on the E313 (from what I’ve read because I have never been to Antwerp).
> And Flanders renovated the surface of some roads while Wallonia should really do it.


 WHAT'S CONTRARY? It just obeys the phrase said just before you


----------



## hammersklavier

ukraroad said:


> WHAT'S CONTRARY? It just obeys the phrase said just before you


Umm...


DannyBoy85 said:


> Wallonia added an extra lane on the E42


That's adding capacity (presumably at the expense of maintenance)


> And Flanders renovated the surface of some roads while Wallonia should really do it.


That's a maintenance project...

Basically what I'm getting is that Walloon roads are like American ones, always getting more capacity while the ones that already exist are left to crumble, but Flemish ones are a caricature our ideas of what the Dutch or Germans do, that is keep things like the road surface in tip-top shape but at the expense of ignoring congestion.

So if Walloonia has plenty of capacity and keeps adding at the expense of maintenance, but Flanders maintains theirs well but ignores the need to add extra capacity, then ... they play their roles, and they play the roles that what both sides _need_ to do is indeed contrary to what they are _inclined_ to do.


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## ChrisZwolle

E42 is a major truck corridor. And it had space in the median for an additional lane, so the investment was quite low. 

The Walloon motorway system has been substantially improved over the past 10 years. I remember those 'route degradée' next 90 km signs on E25 south of Liège. Nearly all of it has been renovated, though the quality is still somewhat mediocre (lower than what one would expect of a renovated motorway).


----------



## Penn's Woods

DannyBoy85 said:


> I contacted the M.E.T. last year and they said it's not likely to be opened again.


What, ever? As in, may as well take it off the maps?


----------



## Spookvlieger

Yup.


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## ChrisZwolle

It's not an acute congestion problem, but it may be cheaper to renovate A601 than to rebuild the Vottem cloverleaf to modern standards.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Penn's Woods said:


> Seriously. I actually drove in Antwerp last summer, in a Dutch rental. Would Hertz in Amsterdam have thought to tell me about this? I don't know what those norms mean....


On the other hand, I was yelled at at some length by a Brussels cop for honking at a bus that was blocking an intersection. I told him in English I couldn't understand him (which was a lie), he looked at the Dutch plate and went away.


----------



## renroz

Penn's Woods said:


> On the other hand, I was yelled at at some length by a Brussels cop for honking at a bus that was blocking an intersection. I told him in English I couldn't understand him (which was a lie), he looked at the Dutch plate and went away.


Everyone is afraid of Dutch cars hahaha! :banana:


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## Spookvlieger

Nah, he went to get his Flemish collegue to be able to talk to you :troll:


----------



## Kanadzie

Penn's Woods said:


> On the other hand, I was yelled at at some length by a Brussels cop for honking at a bus that was blocking an intersection. I told him in English I couldn't understand him (which was a lie), he looked at the Dutch plate and went away.


I would have been... sorry officer, I am a tourist, I don't speak much German
I only know how to say hello, it's "du bist eine grosse Ars..loch" :lol:


----------



## Spookvlieger

He would have no clue what you where saying either way.


----------



## UnequalSine

Penn's Woods said:


> Seriously. I actually drove in Antwerp last summer, in a Dutch rental. Would Hertz in Amsterdam have thought to tell me about this? I don't know what those norms mean. Would my car have been banned if those rules had been in effect? (It was a gasoline-powered small Fiat.)


If your rental company gives you a car that doesn't comply with EURO 1 regulation, you really should ask for a refund.


----------



## keokiracer

joshsam said:


> He would have no clue what you where saying either way.


There is of course the small chance that the officer would have grown up in the German-speaking part of Belgium


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*truck tolls*

Belgium introduces a truck toll, starting 1 April 2016.

Flanders and Wallonia charge tolls on motorways and parallel main roads only. Brussels charges tolls on the entire urban road network.


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## Spookvlieger

There are much more N roads charched in Wallonia, I wonder what is behind this. More parrallell routes?

Plus there is quite some confusing numbering on the map. Either only use the A numbers or only the E numbers or both in all cases and not A en E numbering mixed up.


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## Wover

joshsam said:


> There are much more N roads charched in Wallonia, I wonder what is behind this. More parrallell routes?
> 
> Plus there is quite some confusing numbering on the map. Either only use the A numbers or only the E numbers or both in all cases and not A en E numbering mixed up.


When a motorway is not part of a E-road, it's signed solely as an A-road. All other motorways are signed with their E-number.

As for the N-roads in Wallonia: In Flanders all main connections are motorways (A or E), but in Wallonia some main connections are just N-roads, so I guess that's the reason why they're tolled.


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## Meurisse

And a few roads in wallonia are added to eurovignet?


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## ChrisZwolle

I don't understand that either. This toll system is supposed to replace the Eurovignette system.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Eurovignette is completely scrapped in Belgium, according to the Eurovignette site: https://www.eurovignettes.eu/portal/en/welcome

_”The State of Belgium has decided to no longer levy the Eurovignette for the Belgian territory as of April 1st, 2016. On that day, the start of a new kilometre-based road charging system is planned. This means that the Eurovignette is no more necessary for Belgium and will be replaced by a kilometre-based toll.
The remaining Eurovignette countries - Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Sweden - will continue with the Eurovignette system.”_

The implementation of the truck toll is characterized as 'chaotic', with very long delivery times for the transponders and a large amount of malfunctioning transponders. Transponders can also be obtained at major border crossings, resulting in very long waiting times to get them installed. 

It appears though, that many trucking companies decided to order a transponder in the last month before implementation, leaving little time for repairs or unforeseen problems. 

There were protests in Wallonia where truck drivers blocked motorways.

It has been criticized to enforce the truck toll with € 1000 fines from the very first day, without a grace period. Especially with the former Eurovignette costing only € 8 per day, a € 1000 fine seems out of proportion.


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## Kanadzie

^^ pourquoi faire simple, quand on peut faire compliqué!


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## DannyBoy85

The introduction of this toll system has led to many protest among truck drivers. Some decided to block the roads: http://www.lalibre.be/actu/belgique...ace-lundi-apres-midi-57027a0335708ea2d4345ac3


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## ChrisZwolle

A Dutch trucking company received 85 transponders. Not one of them worked.


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## WillBuild

Why are the E34 (Expresweg) West of Zelzate, R4-East and Liefkenshoektunnel exempt? They see their fair share of truck traffic..


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## keokiracer

The Liefkenshoektunnel is tolled already. The E34 and R4-East: no idea. 

Possibly a 'trick' in the hopes of more truck traffic using those routes towards the Dutch Westerscheldetunnel (also tolled) to keep them away from the bottleneck called Antwerpen.


----------



## WillBuild

keokiracer said:


> The Liefkenshoektunnel is tolled already. The E34 and R4-East: no idea.
> 
> Possibly a 'trick' in the hopes of more truck traffic using those routes towards the Dutch Westerscheldetunnel (also tolled) to keep them away from the bottleneck called Antwerpen.


As someone too familiar with the E34, R4 and Dutch access roads, I sure hope not.

Actually, after posting the question I remembered that that stretch of E34 is not up to motorway standards yet.

And, apparently, the R4-West is intended to become the primary motorway whereas R4-East will be for the most part a regional "primary road 2". I hadn't expected that, given its more direct alignment with the planned to be upgraded Tractaatweg across the border.


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## DannyBoy85

Some gas stations are already on shortage: http://www.lesoir.be/1172836/articl...llonie-camionneurs-intensifient-leurs-actions


----------



## NejcB

kreden said:


> IIRC, there is a caveat to this strategy - the national motorway company's debt does not count towards public debt, despite being wholly owned by the government, only if it obtains most of its revenue "on the market" (through tolls) and not through public financing, such as taxes. I remember this was a factor in the decision-making process when the vignette system in Slovenia was being modified, since vignettes are not considered tolls but more of a road tax.


Aha ok, so considering that in Belgium the motorways are only financed by the government that rule cannot apply. This would also explain why the EC refused thefinancing of the Oosterweel connection in Antwerpen to be excluded from public debt.

Thanks to all of you for the explanation!


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The E17 border crossing into France is still jammed with 30+ minutes delay at 10 pm, due to border controls. These border controls where in place before the attack in Nice occurred.

The best option to enter France appears to be E429/E42 at this time. The E19 border crossing is also jammed. However, many GPSs opt for E17 as this is the shortest route from Antwerpen to Paris (signage indicates to use E403 via Tournai).


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## Spookvlieger

At one point traffic jams at the border reached around 20km in length...


----------



## NejcB

Does anyone know by what percentage the daily number of vehicles is decreased in these summer holiday days in comparison with a 'normal' day outside the holiday period on the most heavily congested parts of the Belgian road network, such as the ring of Brussels or Antwerpen? Hourly data would probably even be a better index.

I am asking this question because sometimes I have an impression that there are not that much less cars but the fact that these few percent mean that you fall bellow the point of saturation it changes everything.


----------



## kreden

NejcB said:


> Aha ok, so considering that in Belgium the motorways are only financed by the government that rule cannot apply. This would also explain why the EC refused thefinancing of the Oosterweel connection in Antwerpen to be excluded from public debt.
> 
> Thanks to all of you for the explanation!


I've managed to find more clarification on this matter: for the company not to be considered part of the state sector, the government must not provide (directly or indirectly) over 50% of the company's revenue or guarantee for the company's debt in excess of 50% of the value of the company's assets. Sorry for the OT.


----------



## Wimpie25

One of my more recent videos


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## ChrisZwolle

*E42*

They recently expanded the Verlaine rest area near Huy on E42. They also expanded the motorway to six lanes.










2013:









Nearly the entire E42 from Mons to Liège has been widened to six lanes, except for a 10 km stretch between Daussoulx (E411) and Andenne.


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## DannyBoy85

ChrisZwolle said:


> They recently expanded the Verlaine rest area near Huy on E42. They also expanded the motorway to six lanes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2013:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly the entire E42 from Mons to Liège has been widened to six lanes, except for a 10 km stretch between Daussoulx (E411) and Andenne.


It should be expanded as well according to the Plan Route.


----------



## Thermo

ChrisZwolle said:


> They recently expanded the Verlaine rest area near Huy on E42. They also expanded the motorway to six lanes.


I like how they kept the eighties(?)-style architecture and modernized it.














































E42









On Streetview you can see the BEFORE and AFTER. Huge difference!


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## Spookvlieger

So the Walloon government didn't have money for 10 km of highway near Liège but found money to lay out a new rest area and and extra lane on the E42? 

Nice job btw. I like how both Wallonia and Flanders are chosing cast concrete barriers again :yes:.


----------



## DannyBoy85

joshsam said:


> So the Walloon government didn't have money for 10 km of highway near Liège but found money to lay out a new rest area and and extra lane on the E42?
> 
> Nice job btw. I like how both Wallonia and Flanders are chosing cast concrete barriers again :yes:.


As said before the 10km are going to be extended in the future (within the Plan Route).

The concrete divider is more and more common, indeed.


----------



## Spookvlieger

DannyBoy85 said:


> As said before the 10km are going to be extended in the future (within the Plan Route).
> 
> The concrete divider is more and more common, indeed.


I was actually referring to the closed A601


----------



## DannyBoy85

joshsam said:


> I was actually referring to the closed A601


Yeah, strange way of decision-making.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Extension works of the Brussels R0 will start in 2019.(in Dutch)






Here is the website:http://www.werkenaandering.be/

and a map where you can chose wich part of the ring to view in detail:
http://www.werkenaandering.be/overzicht/

The main thing will be that local traffic will be isolated for a large part from throughout traffic. Today local and throughout traffic mixes a lot.

New situation will be that feeder lanes will tae the traffic from the exits and only come back together at an intersection.


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## Spookvlieger

The extention works of the N5 near Couvin are now clearly visable on Google Earth. They are upgrading the road from a 1+1 to a 2+2 with speed limit of 90 or 120km/h
Just across the broder you can see that France is upgrading route N51 to (semi??) highway standard towards Charleville-Mézières. With that this missing link will be largly overcome.


----------



## Mundial

joshsam said:


> Just across the broder you can see that France is upgrading route N51 to (semi??) highway standard towards Charleville-Mézières. With that this missing link will be largly overcome.


It will be a free "autoroute", the A304. See Wikipedia for more information.


----------



## DannyBoy85

Today started a 2 month renovation of the E25 between Cheratte and the NL-border:

http://febetra.be/fr/2016/08/belgie-werken-e25-cheratte/

There is also a big viaduct renovation nearby ("Viaduc de Cheratte" that supposedly ends this year).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*speed limits*

The default speed limit on the regional roads (_gewestwegen_) in Flanders will go down to 70 km/h next year. These are mostly the N-roads. 90 km/h will only be permitted on a few key roads that are better suited for them. 120 km/h will continue to apply to four-lane divided N-roads if not otherwise indicated.

So the speed limit outside city limits will be 70 km/h unless posted at 90. They have to remove 16,000 70 km/h signs. 

There is not yet a definitive list of roads where 90 km/h will remain the speed limit. 

Flanders has extensive ribbon development, nearly all roads are lined with houses, so 70 km/h is more appropriate as the default speed limit. The article doesn't say anything about Wallonia.

http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/s...n-gaat-omlaag-70-kilometer-per-uur-b6fee462c/


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> The default speed limit on the regional roads (_gewestwegen_) in Flanders will go down to 70 km/h next year. These are mostly the N-roads. 90 km/h will only be permitted on a few key roads that are better suited for them. 120 km/h will continue to apply to four-lane divided N-roads if not otherwise indicated.
> 
> So the speed limit outside city limits will be 70 km/h unless posted at 90. They have to remove 16,000 70 km/h signs.
> 
> There is not yet a definitive list of roads where 90 km/h will remain the speed limit.
> 
> Flanders has extensive ribbon development, nearly all roads are lined with houses, so 70 km/h is more appropriate as the default speed limit. The article doesn't say anything about Wallonia.
> 
> http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/s...n-gaat-omlaag-70-kilometer-per-uur-b6fee462c/


So will they signpost "regional speed limit" at every point of regional internal border?

I wish some EU legislation was passed to prevent sub-national entities from setting different 'default' traffic regulations (be it parking, use of daylights, default speed etc).


----------



## sotonsi

Suburbanist said:


> I wish some EU legislation was passed to prevent sub-national entities from setting different 'default' traffic regulations (be it parking, use of daylights, default speed etc).


Not going to happen - the EU likes strong sub-national regions as it makes the national entities weaker and nations states are basically Hitler.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Nice but slightly dated picture of the R0/E40 intersection on the western side of the R0.

Heli Tour by 1kroc1, on Flickr


----------



## Red85

mappero said:


> On Brussels ring the signage is sooo bad!! This create this enormous traffic!! The specialists responsible for that should be kicked out from their work.
> 
> Try to find and take the exact lane if you want to turn from the northern ring when driving over the Vilvoorde Viaduct towards Antwerpen!!?? A lot of drivers is taking the most right exit which give you the wrong exit! But it's like you can understand those orange temporarily sign boards!!!
> 
> 
> For a God sake!!, can the Belgian transfer the signs work to Dutch specialists??!! Why is so easy, pro and efficient to drive on Dutch roads and motorways compare to completely chaos roads in Belgium!!??:bash:


2nd that. Took the wrong exit also...

Just a freaking nightmare if you drive there with all the traffic and no knowlegde of the right way at all.

Why are you putting up signs then?

But overall in Vlaanderen is it quite ok, in the other Belgium it's not. Try to learn in the first place: be consequent in the places you point at. 
- For sign 1 its city a and b.
- For sign 2 (3km further) its city b and c 
- For sign 3 (4km further) its city a and c

And place them in ******* sight! Walonians...


----------



## Glodenox

About that exit just after the Vilvoorde viaduct: that exit will be closed in a couple of years. They're making a new exit that branches off from the road towards E19 Mechelen/Antwerpen. That's also the reason for those road works.

More information: http://www.werkenwoluwelaan.be/verkeersknooppunt-machelen/


----------



## DannyBoy85

Two pictures of the renovation of the E40 Viaduct in Cheratte.


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^I tried to fix your posting code but I didn't work. you need to have a direct link for the images from the hosting website. Otherwise the insert won't work.


EDIT; I fixed your code with the direct link, however the immages are quite large. I would be good to resize them on the hosting website.


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## DannyBoy85

joshsam said:


> ^^I tried to fix your posting code but I didn't work. you need to have a direct link for the images from the hosting website. Otherwise the insert won't work.


Here are the posting links.

What code to write to display image on the forum?


----------



## Spookvlieger

normally this one










But the immages worked for like two minutes afther I used the correct link and now the code is broken again. It must have something to do with the hosting webiste I guess. It gives code 403. Wich means it's forbidden to use direct link from hosting website.


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## DannyBoy85

Is it correct like that?


----------



## DannyBoy85

Two pictures of the renovation of the E40 Viaduct in Cheratte:


----------



## DannyBoy85

To the administrator:

since I can't seem to be able to upload images, can you delete my today's posts?

Thx


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## ChrisZwolle

^^ Try to use a different host, for example imgur.com


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*A11*

The new A11-N49 interchange near Westkapelle will be partially put into service tomorrow. The direction Antwerpen > Brugge will use the new underpass of the future A11, and then follow a temporary road to N376.


----------



## DannyBoy85

Trying to upload two pictures of the E40 viaduct renovation in Cheratte:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Aha, traffic is now switched to the north side of the bridge. Is there still a speed camera to enforce the low speed limit of what was it, 50 or 60 km/h?


----------



## De Klauw

mappero said:


> On Brussels ring the signage is sooo bad!! This create this enormous traffic!! The specialists responsible for that should be kicked out from their work.
> 
> Try to find and take the exact lane if you want to turn from the northern ring when driving over the Vilvoorde Viaduct towards Antwerpen!!?? A lot of drivers is taking the most right exit which give you the wrong exit! But it's like you can understand those orange temporarily sign boards!!!


What's wrong with this sign? Could not be clearer what lane to take to go to Antwerp. Did you missed it? https://www.google.be/maps/@50.9071596,4.430159,3a,75y,169.09h,90.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqYh4NpLrZlvqVTVDrD_Tgg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=nl


----------



## keokiracer

If you actually read his post you'd see that he didn't miss his exit by driving past it, but by taking one exit too early (exit 5: Machelen-Woluwelaan). The sign you link to is irrelevant as it is after exit 5.


----------



## DannyBoy85

ChrisZwolle said:


> Aha, traffic is now switched to the north side of the bridge. Is there still a speed camera to enforce the low speed limit of what was it, 50 or 60 km/h?


Hey, the traffic has indeed been reduced to two lanes and no exit to the E25 direction to Maastricht. But on Monday, the right lane on the south side will be reopened. Works are to be completed in early 2017 : http://viaducs-herstal.blogspot.be/

The speed camera at 70 km/h has been removed and it only brought back rarely (some weeks ago for the last time).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N31 Brugge*

Construction started today on the N31-N351 in Brugge. They are going to replace the intersection with a grade-separated interchange, eliminating the last traffic lights on N31 through the city. It's planned for completion late 2017 or early 2018.

Project website: http://wegenenverkeer.be/werken/herinrichting-kruispunt-n31-met-bevrijdingslaan


----------



## Wimpie25

6 years ago the section of the E40 between Heverlee & Sterrebeek opened to traffic again in both directions. The motorway had been extensively renovated. 

Last week plans for another renovation have been presented to the public. After 6 years of heavy traffic, the motorway no longer looks as fresh as it did in 2010. The 2010 renovation featured the narrowing of the median, newer and taller lighting and a resurfacing of the old concrete with new layers of Very Open Asphalt. In the 2017 renovation, the 40 year old concrete will be completely removed.

The Freeway was constructed in the 70's to connect Luik (Liège) to Brussels. The Heverlee Interchange was already constructed in the 70's but only connected Leuven Dowtown to the new E40 with an also newly constructed expressway.

The original layout featured 2x3 lanes. After the A2(E314) was constructed, the freeway was widened between Heverlee and Sint-Stevens-Woluwe to 4 lanes, westbound. The eastbound direction got an rushhour expresslane in 2013.

Back in the day I made this video






I also drove on the same section of the E40, featured in one my more recent video's. (starting at 1:35)


----------



## Ryme Intrinseca

Could someone explain the situation on the R0 at Machelen? It seems that the plan is to fully open the interchange with the Brussels Ring upgrade starting in 2019, though it will only provide access to the R22.

So my question is, why has the interchange not been fully opened already, given it is essentially complete?


----------



## Spookvlieger

snowdog said:


> Quite ridiculous to impose such measures on the safest roads of all, why don't they spend that money on actual dangrous roads: Outside of built-up areas and in built-up areas?


I think they will. At least they have placed a ton of camera's on N roads as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

I prefer strict speed enforcement with reasonable speed limits, which checks everyone (with cameras), than the American version of it (usually lower than justifiable speed limits which most people flaunt, but then get caught and harshly fined every now and then - or if they get in an accident).

It is annoying to be driving on a 1+1 expressway, at the posted speed limit, and then have a car tailgating you as its driver wants the car in front (me) to disrespect the posted limit and drive faster 'like most people do'. I absolutely hate this "it is illegal, but everybody does, so should you" situations when it comes to moving traffic or double parking.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

As of 1/1/17, the general non-urban speed limit in Flanders is now 70 km/h.

Although officially explained as 70 km/h already being the de-facto speed limit outside city limits with 90 km/h being the exception, practice shows a massive downgrading of the remaining 90 km/h sections to 70 km/h.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Only in Flanders? What's about Wallonia? How should one know which rule is valid, 70 or 90km/h?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

70 km/h is the general speed limit in Flanders. Sections with a 90 km/h speed limit are indicated as such by signs.

Wallonia still has a 90 km/h general speed limit. Brussels too, perhaps, but they don't have many (if any?) roads outside city limits with a 90 km/h speed limit.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Yes, I know. Flanders has changed it because 75% were already limited to 70km/h but maintaining the signs is expensive, so they wanna remove 30,000 signs and just post the 90km/h exceptions.

However, how should I know if I'm in Flanders or Wallonia and what's the maximum speed?

Okay, my GPS automatically indicates that I'm close to a national border and displays the maximum speed table. I even have a "Location info" button and I can always request the actual speed table. However, I think Belgium is still one country or have I missed anything?


----------



## Glodenox

From what I've seen, signs as shown in the picture above have been put up at the internal borders as well. Though as far as I'm aware only in the direction into Flanders...


----------



## Kanadzie

MichiH said:


> ^^ Yes, I know. Flanders has changed it because 75% were already limited to 70km/h but maintaining the signs is expensive, so they wanna remove 30,000 signs and just post the 90km/h exceptions.
> 
> However, how should I know if I'm in Flanders or Wallonia and what's the maximum speed?
> 
> Okay, my GPS automatically indicates that I'm close to a national border and displays the maximum speed table. I even have a "Location info" button and I can always request the actual speed table. However, I think Belgium is still one country or have I missed anything?


Upgrade GPS to type that indicates maximum speed on the road you actually are on at any given time


----------



## italystf

MichiH said:


> ^^ Yes, I know. Flanders has changed it because 75% were already limited to 70km/h but maintaining the signs is expensive, so they wanna remove 30,000 signs and just post the 90km/h exceptions.
> 
> However, how should I know if I'm in Flanders or Wallonia and what's the maximum speed?
> 
> Okay, my GPS automatically indicates that I'm close to a national border and displays the maximum speed table. I even have a "Location info" button and I can always request the actual speed table. However, I think Belgium is still one country or have I missed anything?


Aren't there border signs at any road that crosses the Flemish-Wallonian border?


----------



## italystf

Kanadzie said:


> Upgrade GPS to type that indicates maximum speed on the road you actually are on at any given time


You aren't forced to use GPS every time you drive. Signage must be clear enough.


----------



## Suburbanist

I'm adamantly opposed to sub-national entities establishing their own 'default traffic laws'.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> I'm adamantly opposed to sub-national entities establishing their own 'default traffic laws'.


Don't tell that in North America...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Or Germany. Some states have a 120 km/h speed limit, others have 130 km/h. But those are clearly posted.


----------



## Thermo

Suburbanist said:


> I'm adamantly opposed to sub-national entities establishing their own 'default traffic laws'.


It's called federalism. You should look it up.


----------



## MichiH

Germany does NOT have different traffic laws and I don't know any European country having different traffic laws. German road authorities can implement federal laws differently. However, the default speed limits (no limit / 100 / 50) are identical. Exceptions are signposted (lower speed limit than default limit). There are more road authorities than states. For instance, the state of Baden-Württemberg has four general road authorities belonging to the "Regierungsbezirke" which seem to implement the laws differently.

I don't think that the Belgian way of having different default traffic laws per region is legal...


----------



## Spookvlieger

MichiH said:


> I don't think that the Belgian way of having different default traffic laws per region is legal...


The regions are responsible for all speed limits on Regional roads, Hence all N-roads and local routes. So they have to power to change any speed limit on all roads that are not classified as highways.

And even on highway regulation Flanders has found loopholes to change speed limits under certain circumstances, like with the smog alarm, wich is only implemented in Flanders.
--------------------------------

On the same discussion: Regions are also responsible for traffic safety on all roads. Hence Wallonia's green coloured bike lanes on crossings (the few you come across) and Flander's red coloured bike lanes on crossings or dangerous bike lanes (like close to a road)

Wallonia:
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.6958...4!1sVUmThyaQkAtBVuMN4iFgNA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Flanders:
https://www.google.be/maps/@50.8325...4!1s4UjF0GmvTzadUgcxPr_9uw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## MichiH

joshsam said:


> The regions are responsible for all speed limits on Regional roads, Hence all N-roads and local routes. So they have to power to change any speed limit on all roads that are not classified as highways.


It's identical in Germany. Any road authority has the power to change speed limits but they DON'T have the power to change the default (=unsigned) limit.



joshsam said:


> And even on highway regulation Flanders has found loopholes to change speed limits under certain circumstances, like with the smog alarm, wich is only implemented in Flanders.


Of course, that's the normal situation. But the law is made by the federal government.

Enviromental strategies (Euro x norm car ban, truck ban, speed limit) are issued by the city, town or even village. I only know smog alarm from Stuttgart. No other municipality has issued anything like that in Germany and I think it's the same in whole European Union.

Again, my only concern is, how should anyone know what's the speed limit when it's not signed? I don't think that anyone can expect that everyone knows if s/he is in Wallonia or Flanders...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Belgium has allocated nearly all power to the regional governments in respect to roads. The federal government does not fund roads like in Germany, the regions fund it. Hence, there are no federal or national roads, from an ownership view, Belgium only has regional roads (_gewestwegen_). Even motorways are operated like a regional road, though not typically called that. 

The federal government of mobility has only limited powers in respect to traffic, these are driver's license and hours of service regulations, the traffic code and motor vehicle registration (and I also think there are federal laws for traffic offenses). 

But road funding, road operations and road development is entirely up to the three regions. And - apparently - they can also change the general speed limit.


----------



## Spookvlieger

MichiH said:


> Again, my only concern is, how should anyone know what's the speed limit when it's not signed? I don't think that anyone can expect that everyone knows if s/he is in Wallonia or Flanders...



Like any good driver just watch the plates. When you enter Belgium the language of the sign telling you what to drive might help. If you enter Belgium to Flanders, the sign will also say 70 if you enter trough Wallonia the sign will say 90. If you cross region borders there will be signs. There are allready giant signs at region borders stating in wich Region you are and also in wich Province you are. If you haven't got any clue because you missed a giant signage on the side of the road, you can always resort to the names of the towns an cities. French and German names are in Wallonia.

Here you have all 3 of them at the Belgian border:










some other variant of Region and Province indicating


----------



## Kanadzie

Thermo said:


> It's called federalism. You should look it up.


But default limits in such small areas make no sense.
Why not adopt the USA-style option of just putting _all _the signs up _every_ time.
The European use of the "end all limits" sign but you still have a speed limit always struck me as nonsense.


----------



## MichiH

joshsam said:


> If you cross region borders there will be signs.
> 
> There are allready giant signs at region borders stating in wich Region you are and also in wich Province you are. If you haven't got any clue because you missed a giant signage on the side of the road, you can always resort to the names of the towns an cities. French and German names are in Wallonia.
> 
> Here you have all 3 of them at the Belgian border:


Are these giant blue signs indicating 70 / 90 at every road crossing the internal borders or are they planned to be mounted?

If it is, no problem.

If it isn't, what will happen to a (foreign) driver caught by a speed camera doing 95km/h in Flanders after entering the region from Wallonia?
Is it legal to fine the driver for exceeding the speed limit by 25km/h?

If a driver knows the official limit but is not sure where s/he is and don't wanna risk a fine, s/he must drive (less than) 70km/h and would provoke dangerous overtakings in Wallonia...


----------



## Glodenox

They were already placed a couple of weeks before the new year. They'll most likely be missing on most local roads though. I'm also not certain whether Wallonia has put up signs in the other direction indicating that the default speeds are different there. But at least you won't get fined if you apply the default speed limits of Flanders in Wallonia (should be fixed though).


----------



## GROBIN

Why do I feel this "brilliant" idea won't last long?...


----------



## Spookvlieger

GROBIN said:


> Why do I feel this "brilliant" idea won't last long?...


Because we don't like to keep to speed limits in Belgium? :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

I have no objection to whatever jurisdictional arrangements are in place so that they can decide on specific speed limits for specific roads. I just sub-national entities in EU to be forced, if so, to sign any deviation from national traffic law.

Which is, in practice, the previous situation - since so much of northern Belgium is build-up alongside intercity roads, their limit is often 70. And, up to one week ago, that is clearly signed everywhere. I was not advocating from this arrangement to be prohibited.

------------------------
This is a problem in some other countries as well, including Netherlands, with "Zone 60" or "Zone 30" designations on rural areas. You are supposed to beware of the first sign and, if you missed it, though luck. That is not a practical arrangement. Signposts with fixed speed limits are relatively cheap, no harm putting thousands of them up.


----------



## italystf

Suburbanist said:


> I have no objection to whatever jurisdictional arrangements are in place so that they can decide on specific speed limits for specific roads. I just sub-national entities in EU to be forced, if so, to sign any deviation from national traffic law.
> 
> Which is, in practice, the previous situation - since so much of northern Belgium is build-up alongside intercity roads, their limit is often 70. And, up to one week ago, that is clearly signed everywhere. I was not advocating from this arrangement to be prohibited.
> 
> ------------------------
> This is a problem in some other countries as well, including Netherlands, with "Zone 60" or "Zone 30" designations on rural areas. You are supposed to beware of the first sign and, if you missed it, though luck. That is not a practical arrangement.* Signposts with fixed speed limits are relatively cheap, no harm putting thousands of them up*.


Each sign, that must be reflective, complete with its pole, costs few hundreds of euros. It's not a negligible cost especially for small municipalities, if they have to put thousands of them (and replace them after 15-20 years, as they discolour).


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ But they are happy to park the camera that costs every passer-by a few hundreds of euros, aren't they


----------



## belerophon

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ But they are happy to park the camera that costs every passer-by a few hundreds of euros, aren't they


The newest camera in Chemnitz (Blitzer) which could control 2 lanes per direction, and redlight, which was worth a hundred thousand €, was amortised after month^^


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ probably should turn it back to Karl-Marx-Stadt then


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Flanders will decommission its network of roadside emergency telephones tomorrow. There are 1350 telephones installed along the Flemish motorways.

Meanwhile Wallonia has awarded a contract to keep them operational until at least 2020. They want to phase out the emergency telephones when e-call systems in cars become commonplace (which are obligatory from 2018, but the transition may take place until 2030).


----------



## Suburbanist

ChrisZwolle said:


> Flanders will decommission its network of roadside emergency telephones tomorrow. There are 1350 telephones installed along the Flemish motorways.
> 
> Meanwhile Wallonia has awarded a contract to keep them operational until at least 2020. They want to phase out the emergency telephones when e-call systems in cars become commonplace (which are obligatory from 2018, but the transition may take place until 2030).


I think this make some sense because there are still some weak cell phone coverage spots in Wallonia, or at least there were in 2015.


----------



## Wimpie25

My latest video


----------



## mappero

OMG, they will completely change the Europe.. /

http://www.msn.com/nl-be/nieuws/nationaal/bomen-langs-e40-moeten-weg-tegen-vluchtelingen/ar-AAmVYru?ocid=iehp


----------



## Spookvlieger

Will make Belgian highways great again!

No longer driving through and endless forest!


----------



## mappero

Now I understand. Belgium vs The Netherlands in the road conditions but also in the way how they drive  

This can explain ->bad drivers are indicator of


----------



## Wimpie25

Actually, Belgium scores very well on the CPI (Corruption Perception Index) by ranking 15th. Which makes sense since we have one of the lowest inequality rates, income-gaps and highest citizen participations rates in the world. In general the more "equal" a country gets, the less corrupt its goverment is and the higher the quality of the infrastructure is perceived.

That's where Belgium is the odd duck, our infrastructure is generally good but hasn't always been able to keep up with our Benelux partners.

The article mentioned something about how a hierarchical organized country could have infrastructure of a lesser standard?


----------



## Spookvlieger

^^I bet they didn't take into account 4 useless governments trying to eat the same cake


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N67 Eupen - Monschau*

N67 in Eastern Belgium is one of the worst main roads of Belgium. It is called the 'highway to hell'. Though it has been reduced from 11 to 5 km.










2007:


----------



## Corvinus

LOL a piece of GDR driving experience, even with fitting German signs, they should preserve it as an open-air museum.


----------



## italystf

^^ Is this pre-WWII?

Those concrete slabs were widely used in Europe in those years.
There are few relicts left across the continent, like a part of E28 in Russia (originally part of Berlin-Koenigsberg reichautobahn), part of DK18 in Poland (originally part of Berlin-Breslau reichautobahn) and part of G-211 in Slovenia.


----------



## GROBIN

Looks like what used to be called "the longest stairs in Europe"! (Polish A4 Krzyżowa-Wrocław 10 years back)

I love the Belgians' sense of humor! Much more autoirony than Frenchies!


----------



## The Polwoman

italystf said:


> ^^ Is this pre-WWII?
> 
> Those concrete slabs were widely used in Europe in those years.
> There are few relicts left across the continent, like a part of E28 in Russia (originally part of Berlin-Koenigsberg reichautobahn), part of DK18 in Poland (originally part of Berlin-Breslau reichautobahn) and part of G-211 in Slovenia.


Most of these roads are postwar actually: 1950s or 1960s. Eindhoven once had such a road as well built in the early 1960s as a spur from the motorway to Tilburg. When it was resurfaced in 2008 it was in a wrecked state.


----------



## italystf

I wonder if some media would publish some photos of that Belgian road with a generic title 'Belgian roads' to imply that all roads in Belgium look like that.
That's what happened with muddy dirt tracks in Yakutia, whose photos have been viral on the net for years, with a generic title 'Russian highways'.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R1 Antwerpen*

Traffic volume data of R1, the Antwerp ring road. Based on known traffic data, it is the second-busiest motorway in Europe after M-30 in Madrid.


----------



## Spookvlieger

140.000 vehicules squeeze in the 6 lane tunnel under the Scheldt :nuts:


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ man we always complain about R1 traffic but 140 000 vpd on 6 lanes seems not so bad here :lol:

E.g. a bridge over the St. Lawrence River in Montreal (Champlain) pushes 170 000 vpd on 6 lanes and a lane in the opposite direction is reserved for buses at peak hours :lol:


----------



## keokiracer

joshsam said:


> 140.000 vehicules squeeze in the 6 lane tunnel under the Scheldt :nuts:


Nono, 160k. The data is for the stretch of road west of the interchange/exit. So you need to look at Antwerpen-Centrum.

The most impressive part is the 35k trucks in the tunnel on the 2x3 lanes. Pure ridiculousness. Fun fact; a bit east between E19-South and E313 is the highest truck count worldwide on a single motorway section; 51.000 trucks per day.
The stupid amount of trucks is why it is a lot worse than for example the bridge in Montreal or the A20 in Rotterdam (180k on 2x3).


----------



## Spookvlieger

keokiracer said:


> Nono, 160k. The data is for the stretch of road west of the interchange/exit. So you need to look at Antwerpen-Centrum.
> 
> The most impressive part is the 35k trucks in the tunnel on the 2x3 lanes. Pure ridiculousness. Fun fact; a bit east between E19-South and E313 is the highest truck count worldwide on a single motorway section; 51.000 trucks per day.
> The stupid amount of trucks is why it is a lot worse than for example the bridge in Montreal or the A20 in Rotterdam (180k on 2x3).


Well yes, Truck traffic is insane, it slows everything down. Driving to antwerp is a pain as well. If you have 3 lanes, the right lane is full of trucks end to start and sometimes even 2 lanes.

I blame it on the underdevelopped cargo rail infrastructure in Belgium. We defenately need the Antwerp-Rhine-Rhur line back for a starters but The Netherlands doesn't agree. It's still there actually, well at least in Belgium the whole route is still open (open in the sense that it only needs new tracks but the route was not physically removed)


----------



## keokiracer

joshsam said:


> I blame it on the underdevelopped cargo rail infrastructure in Belgium. We defenately need the Antwerp-Rhine-Rhur line back for a starters but The Netherlands doesn't agree. It's still there actually, well at least in Belgium the whole route is still open (open in the sense that it only needs new tracks but the route was not physically removed)


I think you're overestimating rail. For example only ~10% of containers in Rotterdam go over rail, and that's with the cargo-only Betuweroute. That would be around 3k trucks on a daily basis for Antwerpen (as roughly 20k is not local truck traffic but through traffic and yeah yeah you can't one-on-one compare the cities and ports; it's just an example). That would still leave you with 47k trucks per day. Not really somehting to write home about. What you need is alternative routes, ideally to bypass Antwerpen entirely (which we both know is not going to happen in the next century...) or just to provide another route near Antwerpen (Oosterweel).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R1 Antwerpen*

The Flemish government appear to have reached an agreement over the R1 / Oosterweel Connection in Antwerp. 

They call it a 'radical port alignment' and 'Oosterweel light'. According to the _Gazet van Antwerpen_ newspaper it only outlines the main principles of the plan. 

According to the newspaper, it involves a tunnel from Wommelgem to Ekeren, a second Tijsmans Tunnel in the Port of Antwerp, and a slimmed down Oosterweel connection and a cap over a part of R1. 

It appears they are going to push the 'second bypass' after all, at least the Wommelgem - Ekeren - Liefkenshoek Tunnel sounds like that. 

http://www.gva.be/cnt/dmf20170314_0...g-zet-vandaag-handtekening-onder-overeenkomst


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Some more information has surfaced.










Green line: new tunneled bypass on the east side of Antwerpen / expanded capacity

Blue line: new tunnel under the Scheldt

Red line: tunneled R1 (cost: € 9 billion :nuts: )

Orange line: possible future extension of the bypass (also R11)


----------



## Thermo

Historical day! Finally.

Enormous project, btw.


----------



## mappero

#BelgianDoItBetter as they always say. So the tunnel costs are also better :nuts:
I can see those traffic jams with Belgian road works organization, lack of the info signs, missing lanes or disappearing somewhere and mess around that giant project hno:
However they gain a green light to start this project after so many years ...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R4 Gent*

What do you think of this design for the R4-N424 intersection near Gent?


----------



## mappero

^^ I drive there 3,4 times a month. Knowing Belgian approach*, this new roundabout with traffic lights will generate even more traffic. 

*) - traffic lights with the same red/green light time regime(so no accommodation to the traffic flow); no directional traffic lights (so collision traffic and pedestrian and bikers)

I know I'm criticizing this, but maybe because I spent too much time in very good organized country called The Netherlands


----------



## da_scotty

It's a sort of weird Turbo-Roundabout without the ability to make a 180.


----------



## Spookvlieger

If the traffic lights will be 'fine tuned' the Belgian way (read: not at all) that intersection will be a disaster. They can't even tune the traffic lights on a straight section of road with multiple intersections let alone try this :bash:


----------



## keokiracer

da_scotty said:


> It's a sort of weird Turbo-Roundabout without the ability to make a 180.


It's not (half) a turboroundabout but a turboplein, and afaik they don't allow 180's by design.


----------



## Kanadzie

I'm just amused by trying to pronounce "Geeraard van Den Daelelaan"


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's easy for daelelaan. The 'aele' sounds a bit like a ******* pronouncing a normal American English A + le like in the name 'Dale'.


----------



## MichiH

^^ Is there any info when the installation of the new markers should be done?

Is there any official date when the N49/A11 rededication will get in force? (or when it came in force)


----------



## jdb.2

I noticed the existing 100m markers on the E19 between Brussels and Antwerp have been turned to face the traffic. What a waste of effort if they are going to be replaced anyway.

(Belgians excited about road markers, since every large project is halted  )


----------



## Suburbanist

What is the status of the rehabilitation of R0?


----------



## Spookvlieger

Suburbanist said:


> What is the status of the rehabilitation of R0?


Non existent as of now. They are just resurfacing some parts and some some 'smart' paint jobs that will alter the flow of traffic.

The rest has to wait untill omewhere 2019.


----------



## Thermo

The new highway A11 from Brugge to Knokke is finished. The 'most expensive highway in Flanders' will be open to traffic on september 1st. 




























(pics: https://www.facebook.com/WillemenGroep/posts/1031147746988636)


----------



## italystf

^^ Drawbridge on a new motorway? Isn't it going to create huge traffic jams?

I know that some drawbridges have been built on early Dutch motorways and that they have mostly been replaced by aquaducts, so I think it's weird to have a new motorway with a drawbridge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A large lift bridge was built recently on Dutch A15 in Rotterdam. The Netherlands also plans to build a new movable bridge on A27 in Gorinchem. So it isn't completely out of style. 

The problem with these movable bridges is that the technology becomes increasingly complex and is prone to malfunctions.


----------



## Thermo

A11










































































(pics from twitter)


----------



## DannyBoy85

A film of the complete drive?

Anyone?


----------



## DannyBoy85

According to a new police rule (that is soon to be passed) speed excesses of less than 7 kph will not be punished anymore on urban and rural roads and under 9 kph on highways or expressways.

This means that the first 10 kph flatrate of a fine (amount 53 €) will star from 129 kph to 139 kph on a motorway for example (instead of 121 kph).

Sources:

http://www.levif.be/actualite/belgi...ndes-ce-qui-change/article-normal-716827.html

https://www.autogids.be/autonieuws/...-flitsers-volgens-college-der-procureurs.html


----------



## Meurisse

here you go:

just before opening:


----------



## Meurisse

and summary of the works


----------



## Penn's Woods

Is that new piece of the A11 eventually supposed to be (or is it already) incorporated in the E34? If so, how is it marked?


----------



## Meurisse

It should yes. They just started to replace all plates next to the road (localization marks). I guess they will put E34/A11 here (as for N49)


----------



## jdb.2

Isn't E34 already assigned to the existing N49 all the way to Knokke?
The signage are already installed and just mention A11, so i guess the km markers will not contain an E number.

Wikipedia mentions that the E number that was reserved for this (approximate) route is E404.
But I guess they skipped this number, fearing people might get lost.


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^I saw an article a month or so ago about changes to the Flemish road-numbering system; applying the A11 and/or E34 designations across the N49 was one of the changes, I think.

Unfortunately, I don't remember where the article was, but I read Dutch and have added a few Dutch and Flemish sites to my Facebook feed so I can keep up. Probably the VRT or De Standaard.


----------



## MichiH

^^



ChrisZwolle said:


> With installing these new markers, N49 between Zelzate and Antwerpen will officially become a part of A11. Intersections on N49 have been replaced by interchanges over the past number of years, bringing it up to motorway standards.


If I got the article right, the signs should be replaced by the end of 2017.

I'll drive the new A11 and N49 next week and will report...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

E404 is actually designated by UNECE to Jabbeke - Zeebrugge but is not signed anywhere due to the lack of a logical route between those termini. The new A11 is not E404, it runs farther east. I believe it is not E34 either.


----------



## keokiracer

ChrisZwolle said:


> E404 is actually designated by UNECE to Jabbeke - Zeebrugge but is not signed anywhere due to the lack of a logical route between those termini.


E404: Signage not found


----------



## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> 
> If I got the article right, the signs should be replaced by the end of 2017.
> 
> I'll drive the new A11 and N49 next week and will report...


Thanks.
If I remember correctly what I read, though, it was supposed to affect the whole of the N49. Even though it's not all up to motorway standards, it was a matter of making navigation easier.


----------



## jdb.2

keokiracer said:


> E404: Signage not found


Correction
E404: Road not found  Since the road that was planned as E404 was never built.
Tomtom should add this message as an easter egg if you take the wrong exit or something.


----------



## DannyBoy85

*Contournement de Couvin (ring road around Couvin)*

According to a tv news from Télésambre, the first phase of the ring around Couvin should be inaugurated this October.
Of course all the polishing work will take extra time.
What about phase 2 and phase 3? It's still under construction.
Trucks in the city center are almost drving their last time.



http://www.telesambre.be/-le-contournement-de-couvin-sera-inaugure-en-octobre_d_23328.html


----------



## mappero

Thermo said:


> A11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (pics from twitter)


I hate those useless Belgian roundabouts, the same as a new one in Poland... No turbo roundabouts at all... !
So what is the reason to build such expensive if only the outside lane will be in use by drivers as they are afraid of taking inner lane.. because according Belgian driving rules the driver inside roundabout has no priority on incoming traffic if he drives on the inner lane :bash:




 check the video from 0:50 ...:bash:


----------



## Glodenox

I hate those roundabouts as well. I'm quite surprised they've added another one like these as I thought I had read they weren't going to build any more. Though it could be this one was planned before they made that decision and it was too late to adjust the plans (without having to redo a lot of paperwork).


----------



## MichiH

*A11/N49/E34*



ChrisZwolle said:


> Flanders started rolling out a new design for hectometer markers along its roads. Instead of the old kilometer posts, they will be installed every 100 meters. They will also be installed perpendicular to the motorway, instead of alongside it, making it easier to read while on the move. They will install 19,300 hectometer markers, at a cost of € 2.7 million.
> 
> With installing these new markers, N49 between Zelzate and Antwerpen will officially become a part of A11. Intersections on N49 have been replaced by interchanges over the past number of years, bringing it up to motorway standards.
> 
> The new design:


I drove from Antwerpen to Brugge today. The new A11 section from Brugge to Westkapelle has the new small "hectometer markers" in green/white/black as shown on the pic. The westernmost segment has blue/white "hectometer markers" indicating N31. The motorway is interrupted on the bridge over the canal indicated by end of/beginning of motorway signs. The new A11 section has no E numbering!

About the announced A11 dedication of the existing N49 from Westkappelle to Zelzate: The whole section has still the old red/white markers. The markers on the 8km segment from Kaprijke to east of N44 (bridge over the canel) are still in the old red/white style but already show A11 (and E34) instead of N49! The markers look quite new though. 2014 GSV shows old E34 markers.

That means, that this segment was "recently" been signed A11. Does anyone know when it happened: 2015, 2016 or 2017?

The eastern end looks intended - there's an at-grade junction - but the western end is odd because it's a bit away from the next at-grade junction. Maybe the bridge - and the neighboring segments with at-grade junctions - don't fulfill motorway standards* or will the markers on remaining segment from the bridge to the next junction be changed "soon"?

*However, A12 between Antwerpen und Brussel also has a lot of at-grade junction with traffic lights...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> The motorway is interrupted on the bridge over the canal indicated by end of/beginning of motorway signs.


This is due to the fact that Belgian motorways are not allowed to have movable bridges, so I've read. So they briefly make it an expressway, which in Belgium - if not otherwise indicated, also allow 120 km/h.

This is the first movable bridge on a Belgian motorway. The concept has long been used in the Netherlands. It's not considered ideal but if it cannot reasonably be avoided, it is allowed to have a movable bridge in a motorway.


----------



## Glodenox

ChrisZwolle said:


> [..]an expressway, which in Belgium - if not otherwise indicated, also allow 120 km/h.[...]


Just a bit of nitpicking from my part, but that is not correct. An expressway (I presume you refer to 'autoweg') merely states that you may not turn around, drive backwards, park, tow and several other relatively obvious things you're not allowed to do on a motorway either. Also, it can only be used by some types of motorized vehicles. So cylists and pedestrians for example are not welcome there. But there's not a single rule about the maximum speed specifically on that road type.

The only reason why that section also allows 120 km/h is because it is a road with at least two lanes for each direction with a physical divider in between, just like it would be the case for any other road.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E420 Couvin*

The new Couvin bypass will be designated as a motorway


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^So is the A54 posted as A54 or E420 now? (Which is the problem with not just posting both applicable numbers....)


----------



## WillBuild

ChrisZwolle said:


> The new Couvin bypass will be designated as a motorway


Nice. Does anyone know when the entire project will be finished?

I had to drive from Maastricht to Paris last weekend. This would have been a great alternative to the A2/A1.


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> ^^So is the A54 posted as A54 or E420 now? (Which is the problem with not just posting both applicable numbers....)


Both.

However, I think the Couvin bypass won't be A54 but A5 because the route is in the corridor of N5...

btw: I have currently traveled all Belgian* motorways now. It will be a very short "success" for about 1 month only... Have to go to Belgium in 2018 again...

*All Belgian, Dutch, German and Luxembourgian motorways


----------



## Penn's Woods

I've clinched the B401. In both directions.


----------



## sotonsi

MichiH said:


> I have currently traveled all Belgian* motorways now. It will be a very short "success" for about 1 month only... Have to go to Belgium in 2018 again...
> 
> *All Belgian, Dutch, German and Luxembourgian motorways


Not so fast. Either your .list file is wrong, or you haven't 100%ed these Benelux motorways (the Belgian ones are on 0%): NLD A2, BEL A25, BEL A28, NLD A79, A604.
:soon:


----------



## MichiH

^^ All clinched today  Plus a short segment of Belgian A13 you've missed; it was quite hard to drive through Liege today because some city streets were closed...

Well, Belgian A28 is still left. I wanted to drive it tomorrow but have decided 15 minutes ago that I wanna rest tomorrow and travel the last remaining Benulux motorway on Tuesday...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E420 Couvin*

A photo update of E420 at Couvin:


DSC_0035.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0041.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0056.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0060.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0086.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0093.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0124.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0132.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


DSC_0138.jpg by Jeroen van Lieshout, on Flickr


----------



## DannyBoy85

According to a tv news from Télésambre, the first phase of the ring around Couvin should be inaugurated this October.
Of course all the polishing work will take extra time.
What about phase 2 and phase 3? It's still under construction.
Trucks in the city center are almost drving their last time.



http://www.telesambre.be/-le-contour...e_d_23328.html


----------



## Thobe

> N5: Couvin-North – Couvin-South 4km (October 2011 to Mid October 2017) – project – map


The Couvin bypass (4,6km) is open for traffic! 
https://www.rtbf.be/info/regions/na...-partie-du-contournement-inauguree?id=9737998

The other part is still under construction untill mid 2019.


----------



## mappero

^^ Possible to get location of this new stretch? 

When will be that day when motorways in Belgium will use A numbers as the rest of the world? :/


----------



## Glodenox

There are A-numbers for all our motorways, but nobody uses them. So I suspect we'll be moving around in a self-driving car faster than we'd call the E19 between Brussels and Antwerp the A1.

Also, there are plenty of other naming conventions in the rest of the world and I can't see any good reason to change this convention now.


----------



## MichiH

Thobe said:


> The Couvin bypass (4,6km) is open for traffic!


How is it signed, E420, N5 or A5? Signed as motorway or expressway?


----------



## verreme

mappero said:


> ^^ Possible to get location of this new stretch?
> 
> When will be that day when motorways in Belgium will use A numbers as the rest of the world? :/


The rest of the world? Norway, Sweden and Denmark use the E-numbers too.


----------



## sotonsi

Most countries with a motorway network (as opposed to one or two here and there) give them a separate set of numbers, or different coloured shields/cartouches, and most use 'A' prefixes if they use different prefixes to regular roads. However these are far from universal things - eg Hungary, Pakistan, Ireland and the UK use 'M'; Mexico, Czechia and Slovakia 'D'; Turkey 'O'; Japan, Malaysia and the Philippines 'E'; Kosovo 'R'; the US 'I'; and I know I've missed other countries.

Belgium and the Nordic countries are different as they use E roads as primary numbers, whereas other countries give E roads equal-footing at best and people typically ignore them. Belgium is doubly odd as there's a public-facing (Denmark has administrative M numbers for motorways) national numbering system on these roads, rather than the E numbers only. Triply odd as this use of E numbers doesn't happen off the motorway network, unlike Scandinavia (and the small non-motorway bit of the E55 in Denmark).

Of course, doing stuff different from others isn't an inherently good reason to change, and things would be more boring if they were more uniform.


----------



## Thobe

MichiH said:


> How is it signed, E420, N5 or A5? Signed as motorway or expressway?


Signed as motorway.


----------



## sponge_bob

sotonsi said:


> However these are far from universal things - eg Hungary, Pakistan, Ireland and the UK use 'M'; Mexico, Czechia and Slovakia 'D'; Turkey 'O'; Japan, Malaysia and the Philippines 'E'; Kosovo 'R'; the US 'I'; and I know I've missed other countries.


You missed Spain which uses _all_ of those letters for Motorway (and for Non Motorway too), although mainly A or AP.


----------



## jdb.2

Belgium used to have very low E-numbers (E3, E5, E9, E10).
Probably somewhere in the 80s the E-numbering system was reformed.

For example E9 was renumbered to E313. In my opionion Belgium should have switched to national A-numbers as primary road numbering at that point.
Very important national corridors now carry inconvenient numbers like E313, E314 and E411. A13, A2 and A4 would have been so much easier.

Especially E313-E314 are confusing especially because they intersect. Traffic from Antwerp to Aachen has to follow E313 and then E314.

In Spain E-numbers are useless as well because they not always follow the shortest route. For example, E15 Valencia-Alicante follows the coastal AP7, even though the new A7 trough Alcoy is much shorter. Maybe they hope more people will use the toll road that way. :lol:
Or they just didn't bother to reroute the E-15 and change the signs for the millionth time.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MichiH said:


> How is it signed, E420, N5 or A5? Signed as motorway or expressway?


Directional signage show it as E420 motorway. Traffic signs show it as an expressway. Hectometer signs show it as N5. 

:lol:


----------



## Luki_SL

Are there any plans to built motorway A19 missing link between Ypres (N38) and Veurne (E40/A18)?


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's a political game between local politicians, the Flemish governemnt and the Belgian government. Don't expect any concrete plans any time soon.

For instance the previous Belgian government wanted to upscale the N8 instead, but those plans where pushed and driven by local politics who didn't want the new motorway, the current government scrapped the plan to upscale the N8 and is doing new studies to realise the A19. This however created a lot of commotion within the local comunities and politics.

The N8 is a dangerous road that needs to be reconstructed very fast. Local politicans rather have no new highway and the money to be directed to reconstruct the dangerous N8 wich runs trough their towns.

The current government however wants to do both. (Like it should be) but local politicians are very sceptical and still don't want a new highway.


----------



## MichiH

*N5 south of Charleroi*



MichiH said:


> ^^ I've tried to find some info....
> 
> http://www.sofico.org/fr/les-missionsles-grands-ouvrages/la-n5-e420
> 
> It seems that it is/was planned to upgrade N5 b/n Charleroi and French border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northern section (13km) between Charleroi Sud and Somzée (Walcourt)
> Central section (25km) between Somzée and Mariembourg (north of Couvin)
> Southern section (length yet undefined) between north of Couvin and the French border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was decided in 2011 to fund the 14km extension (Couvin bypass) which costs about 176 million €.
> 
> https://www.rtbf.be/info/regions/ha...ite-du-trident-au-sud-de-charleroi?id=9122103
> 
> If I got it right, it's about the planned (or u/c?) upgrade of the northern or central section. The road will only partially get motorway standard :dunno:
> 
> 
> http://routes.wikia.com/wiki/Route_nationale_belge_5
> 
> N5 could be future A5 but Bultia shopping center bypass (1.5km) will feature 2 lanes only.
Click to expand...

A public inquiry concerning the revision of sector plans will take place from 25 October 2017 to 8 December 2017; The project consists of the revision of the Charleroi and Philippeville-Couvin sector plans for the registration of the proposed E420-N5 route south of Charleroi and the associated reservation perimeter.

If I got it right, there will be two N5 branches between R3 and Bultia. The western branch is an extension of A503 from R3 exit 5, the eastern branch ends at R3 exit at Blanche Borne. See map.

Is the public inquiry ("Enquête publique") the last step to get building permit or is it an earlier planning stage?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E17 Waregem*

A DDI has been approved for the E17 / N382 interchange in Waregem. It would be the first DDI in Belgium.


----------



## mappero

^^ If Belgians keep a good and up to date signing system then this can be a very interesting idea, otherwise will be a junction with a lot of accidents


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## Spookvlieger

I can think of several junctions this might actually work where structural traffic jams are present every day. Offcourse It would be better to build a double loop like they did with the N75xE314 junction.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Flanders has seen substantial snowfall today, which has impacted traffic from the early morning to late evening. Some roads were jammed up for more than 12 hours. 

Gent seems especially hard-hit, as of 9:30 p.m. E40 is still jammed up badly.









I've read reports about incredible gridlocks on the regional road system with 3-4 hours to travel 10 kilometers.

Around 4 p.m.:


----------



## Spookvlieger

And most of those traffic Jams are caused by idiots. I had a nearly 1 hour delay on a local road because some ass with a merc, back wheel drive with no winter tires blocked a bridge with his car... :bash: They should fines those idiots heavely and give the money to the people in the traffic jam...


----------



## Pitchoune

Sorry for the off topic but those interested in very accurate reports about snow in Belgium can check that website:
http://www.weerstationmaasmechelen.be/sneeuw/,
The situation is now back to the normal with southeast covered by snow and nothing elsewhere


----------



## Red85

Luki_SL said:


> Are there any plans to built motorway A19 missing link between Ypres (N38) and Veurne (E40/A18)?


Where I've got it from, I don't know. So correct me if I'm wrong.
If you stretch it, it would go straight through the battlegrounds of the opening stages of 'the third battle of Ypres', The battle of Pilckem Ridge.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Low Emission Zone*

A Low Emission Zone (LEZ) will become operational in Brussels from 1 January 2018. In 2018, it only applies to older diesel cars. From 2019, it will also apply to older petrol cars. Over the years, the admission criteria will be enhanced to ban older vehicles. 

More information: http://www.lez.brussels/en/content/lez

According to that website, the enforcement will not start until October 2018. Every vehicle that wants to drive in Brussels - including vehicles that comply! - will have to register. Non-registration will be fined € 350, even if the vehicle complies with the emission standards. 

Antwerpen also has a LEZ since 2017. Every foreign motorists (except Belgian and Dutch) must register their vehicle, even if your vehicle complies with the admission standards, otherwise you get a € 125 fine.

https://www.slimnaarantwerpen.be/en/LEZ/check-your-vehicle/conditions-for-admission

If you want to drive into both cities, you probably have to register your vehicle in both cities because they are separate entities and have different admission criteria. However, you cannot register your vehicle in Brussels until summer 2018. You also have to re-register when they change the admission criteria in Antwerpen in 2020 and 2025.


----------



## Spookvlieger

If they implement the law like they check drivers license or car insurance in Brussels you shouldn't fear driving a damn diesel train...


----------



## jdb.2

I heard a comedian today who said that the Antwerp LEZ is sandwiched between the largest petrochemical port in Europe and the busiest motorway in Belgium (R1), and it's divided in two by one the busiest rivers in Europe.
And how the city council were actually surprised when the emission limits were exceeded when there was a bit of wind.

And for the same sum for violating the LEZ you could also drive 80 in a 50 zone while being drunk and using the phone. Don't know if this last thing i actually true. :nuts:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

4 trucks and 1 car crashed yesterday on E19 just north of Antwerpen. A BMW was completely destroyed, its two occupants were killed.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A cable-stayed bridge snapped this morning on N602 across the Albert Canal near Lixhe (north of Liège).










It appears to be a similar problem as with the Nipigon Bridge in Ontario, Canada that also had its bridge deck lifted by the cables due to the cold.


----------



## Glodenox

So basically the cables became shorter due to the cold and pulled up the bridge. Impressive to see what a difference in length a colder temperature can give. But I assume there is a system to counteract that that failed? I can't imagine this being normal for cable-stayed bridges in areas with big temperature swings.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R1 Antwerpen*

_Verkeerscentrum_ released some traffic statistics over 2017.

The busiest segment of road in Flanders is R1 between Berchem and Borgerhout in Antwerpen. The total AADT is 276,100, which is likely the highest in the EU outside of Madrid. A mind-boggling 50,800 semi trucks drive on that section. 

The Kennedy Tunnel northbound has traffic congestion 10.5 hours per day on average. This is an increase of 25% in just 2 years. At the Antwerpen-East interchange, the traffic jam duration increased by 100 minutes per day in just 1 year, with now 6.5 hours of traffic jam per day in one direction. Traffic congestion around Antwerpen is spiralling out of control.


----------



## Spookvlieger

And politicians shit their pants whenever they hear the words Antwerp and road construction within a few sentences of eachother Antwerp needs at least a 6 lane secondairy full ringroad but since they can 't even complete the first one afther 50 years I doubt anything will change.

Driving to Antwerp is one of the most dreadfull experiences one can have. Whenever in a 40km radious on an highway towards Antwerp you're constantly sandwiched between big trucks. E314 from Netherlands to Lummen interchange, right lane is full of trucks night and day. E313 from Lummen all the way to Antwerp is full of trucks every single moment of the day 24/7. General driving speed falls to 90km/h for long periods even on non rush hours. I've been in traffic Jams on weekends soly caused because of the insane volumes of semi-trucks.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ surely lots of trucks couldn't been a surprise to the road authorities, Antwerp has been one of the world's major ports for centuries...


----------



## Spookvlieger

The volume of trucks has been growing rapidly though. They should have had more investment and talks to open the Iron Rhine railway again. Yet today The Netherlands refuses to re-open their section for freight rail. Offcourse they wouldn't have any benefit from doing so. I would only be good the port of Antwerp. Meanwhile Belgium is trying other routes.(Sinceit's clear they don't want to enlarge motorways) On the Albert canal all bridges are being increased in height so they can stack more containers on riverboats. Currently they can only stack 2, they want to stack 4 in the near future and also let bigger ships pass. The locks on the Albert canal are designed much larger than what the boats than can pass under the bridges.

Distribution centers are trying everything to bypass Antwerp. Currently distribution centers are springing up alongside the Albert canal wich have their own river port just so they don't have to use trucks that have to go over Antwerp. Nike Europe for instance has more than quadruppled its volumes. They have an enormous site going up and have been continiously building for more than 10 years.

Ikea distribution BeNeLux is also situated close to the Albert canal in Genk. They have both road traffic, ship traffic (need to be unload at Genk river port and then put on trucks) and trains driving directly into the distribution center.

Another distribution giant, Essers, is located next to IKEA distribution for the same reason.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The volume of trucks on R1 is really something else. In the Netherlands or Germany, the worst corridors are usually recording around 20,000 - 25,000 trucks per day. Such volumes are resulting in significant truck columns and on two-lane motorways result in other traffic avoiding the right lane. 

51,000 trucks per day is a whole other level. I doubt if there is any other motorway in Europe that comes close to that. 

The Port of Antwerp, like other ports in northwestern Europe, serve a relatively small, but densely populated hinterland. The vast majority of trucking from those ports do not drive all the way to Romania or Russia, but stay within a few hours of the port. In case of Rotterdam, a full 81% of goods are transported to no more than 300 kilometers from the port. This is where trucking provides quick and efficient transport and rail and ship are less capable to compete.

In the Netherlands, the share of rail transport for containers within 100 kilometers is pretty much 0%. In the 100-300 kilometer range, it is still under 10%. It jumps to almost 50% for container transport over 500 kilometers, but that is a small market segment.


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the Netherlands, the share of rail transport for containers within 100 kilometers is pretty much 0%. In the 100-300 kilometer range, it is still under 10%. It jumps to almost 50% for container transport over 500 kilometers, but that is a small market segment.


How about transport by river?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ In Dutch:


----------



## mappero

The very Belgian view on the traffic problem in Belgium...
And the comparison in between The Netherlands and Belgium... (only in Dutch)
http://www.msn.com/nl-be/nieuws/nationaal/de-nederlanders-kunnen-het-wel-pak-minder-files-daar-door-extra-asfalt-blijkt-nu/ar-BBK7nXG?ocid=iehp


----------



## Glodenox

It wouldn't hurt Newsmonkey to actually talk to traffic experts before posting such articles. That would have made the article a lot less "look at this opinion I am having based on hardly any facts or context". Sure, adding lanes reduces traffic jams in the short term, but is it actually a good idea in the long run?


----------



## Spookvlieger

Glodenox said:


> It wouldn't hurt Newsmonkey to actually talk to traffic experts before posting such articles. That would have made the article a lot less "look at this opinion I am having based on hardly any facts or context". Sure, adding lanes reduces traffic jams in the short term, but is it actually a good idea in the long run?


Seriously there is no way traffic will decrease. So what are the other options? O right our splendid PT infrastructure that rivals that of....of what exactly? Romania? Bulgaria? (No offence intended to Romanians or Bulgarians)

If they can't invest in decent PT they must create extra lanes on our highways. There is several highways that desperately need a 3rd or 4th lane. Why is The Netherlands able to do both and we can't have none? And it isn't even limited to highway infrastructure. Local raods ar even more gridlocked or filled to capacity so many hours a day it's becoming rather insane. Nearly all of our traffic jams are so called 'structural traffic jams' or are caused by accidents wich occured because of our lacking infrastructure. In short means; our infrastructure is substandard. Just face it.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The "public transport vs. roads" discussion is a bit outdated. It doesn't matter how many billions you will pour in public transport, it won't reduce congestion. It's a fairy tale that hasn't worked anywhere. 

The vast majority of car trips are in the 10 - 40 kilometer range, where travel time difference with public transport is at its greatest, even with traffic congestion factored in. Public transport works fine for long-distance travel into city centers, or between city centers but that's not where most of the car trips are. So there is no real competition. 

Here is the amount of trips (millions) and travel time difference between transit and driving in the Netherlands. As you can see, there are simply no car trips that would be faster with transit. There are even very few car trips where public transport would require 1 - 1.5 times longer. The vast majority of car trips would require at least 50% to 100% more time on public transport.










This is for the Netherlands, but Belgium is even more dispersed with its heavily developed rural areas, which makes public transport even less competitive than in the Netherlands. 

So yes, you can invest in public transport to make it better, but it won't have any effect on traffic congestion. The travel time difference is just too great, you can't fix that even with billions of euros.

The truth is that you can't eliminate all traffic congestion, but you can substantially reduce it, in both the number of bottlenecks as well as the duration of the remaining traffic jams. Now you have E17/R1 at the Kennedy Tunnel which records over 10 hours of traffic congestion per day, in one direction.


----------



## Glodenox

I suspect that the only discussion you can have is roads vs canals. And we're investing quite a bit in our canals lately.

Besides, the northern part of the Brussels Ring Road will be expanded in a couple of years and the first construction has started on completing the Antwerp Ring Road as well. So the needed capacity is already on its way (I doubt it'll suffice, but I also doubt it will ever suffice).

As long as cars remain a part of your wage in Belgium and people keep living far away from their work (usually also in villages far from any train connections), there's no chance whatsoever that the traffic jams will improve. It has even come to a point that people might make less money if they live nearby their work as they will get less money for their commute.


----------



## Penn's Woods

mappero said:


> The very Belgian view on the traffic problem in Belgium...
> And the comparison in between The Netherlands and Belgium... (only in Dutch)
> http://www.msn.com/nl-be/nieuws/nat...r-extra-asfalt-blijkt-nu/ar-BBK7nXG?ocid=iehp




“The Dutch road network is generally seen as the best in the world”!
Ik zal dat later, um, finishen  te lezen.


----------



## Attus

Public transport may be very efficient in three major kinds of trips: 
- Travelling inside a dense city area
- Commuting to the city center from outskirts or nearby localities
- Intercity services between two city centers. 
In any other cases public transport has only a chance if you're not able to drive (because you're a child, too sick to drive, or too poor to maintain a car). And although intercity services, commuter lines and downtown bus/tram services may be very dense, the vast majority of trips don't belong to the categories above. 

(Chris, you knew I would write it, I suppose ;-))


----------



## Spookvlieger

Glodenox said:


> *As long as cars remain a part of your wage in Belgium* and people keep living far away from their work (usually also in villages far from any train connections), there's no chance whatsoever that the traffic jams will improve. It has even come to a point that people might make less money if they live nearby their work as they will get less money for their commute.


Well, If you considder jobs where cars are not part of the wage, e.g.; factory workers, you can easely see 99% travels by car...SO I'm not really sure it has nathing to do about it.


----------



## MarcVD

For readers not familiar with belgian society, one car purchase out of two (not counting 'utility' vehicles like vans) is made by a company; one car out of six is owned by a company; and one car out of eight is a 'salary' car. I don't believe there is any other country in the world which even remotely approaches such figures.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

^^ New car registrations in the Netherlands are also 50/50 company car lease and private purchases. 

However, I think it's a bit delusional to think that if a company car wasn't part of the salary, people wouldn't commute to work by car.


----------



## MarcVD

That must be very recent then because as far as I know, législation in the Netherlands is very unfavourable to company cars...


----------



## Spookvlieger

There is still a difference in culture though. A friend of mine who worked in The Netherlands as an industrial engineer was not pleased when he was ony able to chose a VW Golf or an Opel astra with no to many options as a company car.

In Belgium, jobs like industrial engineers will give you a wide range very decent cars to chose from. When he changed job back to Belgium he instanly got an Audi A6 avant full option. Other cars he could chose from where BMW4, Opel Isigna, and VW Passat or Arteon.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ my Belgian colleagues all got Audi's like A4
Our company cars in Canada are just some Ford, and only if you have to drive for the company all the time :lol:

In Canada the company car is taxed as income as if it was a rental car, so not very attractive. I'm engineer and nobody will give you one :lol:


----------



## Spookvlieger

Well, you get a wage reduction in Belgium as well if you chose a company car, but the costs (losing part of your wage) are far less then if you had to pay for everything yourself. On top of that the company will pay your insurance and ofthen (not always) will give you a card for filling up your car you can use freely across Europe...

Sadly I'm just a worker so I have to pay for everything myself.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ in Belgium I should be moving


----------



## Spookvlieger

You'll get depressed by our rainy and dull climate stuck in a gaint gridlock, but at least it's in A4 station wagon with seat heating, automatically adjusting seats and interior mood lighting.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Something else about cars in Belgium. Untill 2 years ago the government was handing out a 15% fee reduction on engery efficient DIesel cars. So called measurements to get the car park greener. This 15% price reduction was done for a period longer than 5 years. The Diesel share in Belgium has grown to over 65%. Now the government stabs you in the back rasing taxes for Diesel cars and Diesel fuel making it more expensive because they are, accordingly to our government, bigger polluters than petrol cars. They say it's nesseairy to make the car park greener. Bunch of ripoffs 

However I can almost surely guarantee you when they have anough people switched back to petrol, they will find something else to empty the pockets of the working men.

People tend to forget though that a modern day diesel easely makes 800-1000km on a 50l tank. Petrol cars hardly do half of that. Also a diesel engine can make up to 300.000km without having to make big part replacement costs.. A Petrol engine (specially the small ones they put in cars these days) is worn out by 200.000 and you'll have costs before that.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ fwiw
I have 299 900 km on my Saab (2.8 turbo V6) today and engine is beautiful, not leaking any drop of oil and not burning either, and with no engine or turbo repairs 

But my BMW (4.8 V8) has 281 000 km and valve seals are not good, engine smokes oil if I let it idle  Both cars petrol fueled and about 11-12 years...


----------



## Penn's Woods

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ in Belgium I should be moving




Ik wil naar België verhuizen!
Je veux déménager en Belgique !

Actually, I’d consider it for the right opportunity.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Kanadzie said:


> ^^ fwiw
> I have 299 900 km on my Saab (2.8 turbo V6) today and engine is beautiful, not leaking any drop of oil and not burning either, and with no engine or turbo repairs
> 
> But my BMW (4.8 V8) has 281 000 km and valve seals are not good, engine smokes oil if I let it idle  Both cars petrol fueled and about 11-12 years...


Sounds like a engine gasket change might do the trick on your BMW? Mostly burning oil is because engine oil leaks ttrough the engine gasket. Don't know how available such parts are for older BMW's in Canada. The biggest costs are offcourse the man hours, the gaskets themselves are relatively cheap.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Penn's Woods said:


> Ik wil naar België verhuizen!
> Je veux déménager en Belgique !
> 
> Actually, I’d consider it for the right opportunity.


At least if you're from Philly, the semi run down state of nearly everything (even if things are new) in Belgium wouldn't bother you :lol:


----------



## Penn's Woods

^^rolleyes


----------



## Spookvlieger

I wasn't being all to serious


----------



## ChrisZwolle

MarcVD said:


> That must be very recent then because as far as I know, législation in the Netherlands is very unfavourable to company cars...


Taxation is pretty high indeed. But a car isn't seen as a "status symbol" in the Netherlands, so the number of new car sales by private consumers is pretty low as well, which evens the statistics out. Belgium sells considerably more new cars than the Netherlands, despite its smaller population. 

Many company car leases in the Netherlands have a relatively low budget. It isn't all too common to be able to get a € 40,000+ car from your employer. Many people have a budget under € 25,000. 

For example, the 5 most popular company lease cars on gasoline are;
* Volkswagen Polo
* Hyundai Ioniq
* Volkswagen Golf
* Ford Fiesta
* Peugeot 108 

Diesel cars tend to be larger, but the top 5 doesn't contain any luxury brand (Renault, Peugeot, Opel, Skoda).


----------



## MarcVD

As far as I know, the number of cars sold in BE and NL is roughly the same but population in NL is 50% higher.

Purchase price for car lease is irrelevant. What counts is the difference between purchase and resale at end of lease period. That's what makes High end cars so attractive for leasing. My BMW 418d has the same leasing price as a Renault Laguna...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R4*

A new interchange of R4 at Rieme opens to traffic tomorrow. It serves a new industrial area. Unlike the other interchange projects of R4, this one did not replace an intersection.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The bridge clearance of the Albert Canal is being increased to allow larger ships. Here's the new bridge of N130 in Merksem. It was inaugurated today. The bridge was built in 9 months. However, the new bridge has less capacity than the old bridge, which had 4 lanes and two bus lanes.


----------



## Meurisse

ChrisZwolle said:


> However, the new bridge has less capacity than the old bridge, which had 4 lanes and two bus lanes.


not true, nothing changed to the capacity

https://www.google.be/maps/@51.2368...4!1sFcuTklT5jt4OcgLU0Wwm3w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

only the 'bridge part' is a bit smaller. Bus lanes now only start downhill, before they switched on top of the bridge


----------



## ChrisZwolle

You're right, I was looking at satellite imagery of another bridge replacement in Merksem (N1).


----------



## jdb.2

MarcVD said:


> As far as I know, the number of cars sold in BE and NL is roughly the same but population in NL is 50% higher.


Isn't that because importing cars from Germany is national sport in the Netherlands (because of the crazy inflated prices), that causes this difference?



MarcVD said:


> Purchase price for car lease is irrelevant. What counts is the difference between purchase and resale at end of lease period. That's what makes High end cars so attractive for leasing. My BMW 418d has the same leasing price as a Renault Laguna...


CO2 emission is also a major factor that dermines the "fiscal deductibility" if that's the correct English term.
German premium car makers have sneaky ways to become low CO2-figures. For example: Mercedes C-class has a standard fuel tank less than 40 l (=less weight), so they can score lower fuel consumption and CO2 emission figures. As a customer you can select the "free" option for a bigger fuel tank, but officially, your car still has the low CO2-rating. Every gram counts in this case.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Pick your lane.... in Charleroi :nuts:


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Rue de la Loi in Brussels.




/Wetstraat


----------



## jdb.2

Rue de la Loi in Brussels.
Wetstraat in Bruxelles.
Lawstreet in Brussel.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A big crash on E40 near Erpe-Mere:










https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenlan...open-terwijl-er-rook-uit-motor-kwam~a5bcf00e/


----------



## Spookvlieger

I dont eve think these crashes are abnormal any longer. Traffic volumes are to high and there are just to many big foreign trucks that drive absolutely agressive. Just yesterday I needed to hit the full brakes because Litiuan truck driver thinks he's allowed to overtake another truck with 1km/h more speed than the whole row of trucks in front of him and just decides to slowly start pushing me out of my lane against the concrete  REsult: He caused a traffic jam.


----------



## AvB

*Rest Area Ghyvelde - Bruges (x3.2)*


----------



## italystf

Found on Facebook


----------



## AvB

*Bruges - Gent (x3.6)*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*Wallonia construction*

There are a couple of long construction zones on the Walloon motorways this season.

The worst in terms of congestion is E411 at Namur. I'm not sure what kind of configuration they operate there, but there frequently is intense congestion with significant delays.

The worst in terms of very long single lane configurations are E25 and E42. 

There is a 26 kilometer single lane construction zone on E42 south of Verviers, that is planned until mid-2019. Traffic is light there though, and it will only cause congestion if there are races or other events at Spa-Francorchamps or Nürburgring. There are two more single lane construction zones on A60 in Germany as well, making that trip less than ideal, with approximately 45 kilometers of single lane traffic between Verviers and Wittlich.

There are two long single lane construction zones on E25 south of Liège, 18 + 20 kilometers. However these will be removed by late June / early July.


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> There are a couple of long construction zones on the Walloon motorways this season.
> 
> *The worst in terms of congestion is E411 at Namur.* I'm not sure what kind of configuration they operate there, but there frequently is intense congestion with significant delays.
> 
> The worst in terms of very long single lane configurations are E25 and E42.
> 
> There is a 26 kilometer single lane construction zone on E42 south of Verviers, that is planned until mid-2019. Traffic is light there though, and it will only cause congestion if there are races or other events at Spa-Francorchamps or Nürburgring. There are two more single lane construction zones on A60 in Germany as well, making that trip less than ideal, with approximately 45 kilometers of single lane traffic between Verviers and Wittlich.
> 
> There are two long single lane construction zones on E25 south of Liège, 18 + 20 kilometers. However these will be removed by late June / early July.


They have 2 narrow lanes running in each directon. sometimes they are paired in the same direction, sometimes they switch sides or split up. one center lane, construction in the middle and one lane that feeds the on and off ramps, in many cases you need to carefully select your exit kilometers ahead or miss it all together. Many exits are closed, only some are open. The situation is quite bad even outside rushhour. The lanes are so narrow you can't even pass a truck in most cases, even more because the quality of the road surface on those temporary lanes is one of the worst Ive ever seen. Trucks are swaying constantly and blocking your path ect...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

What is the point of this roundabout?










B402, Gent.


----------



## Glodenox

There used to be no way to enter the parking of Flanders Expo at the other side of the B402 (slightly visible to the left of your image), so people could use that roundabout to turn around and take the exit. Nowadays there are two bridges that allow you to do the same thing, so it has lost most of its purpose, though I suspect quite a few visitors of Flanders Expo won't be aware of this change and would be surprised if this roundabout was removed.


----------



## mappero

^^
True, Belgian are very surprised when something is changed! "We do that like this for ages" they love to say ...
I can see that every day, not only on the roads but also at the companies when you need to change the procedures or create a new process flow...


----------



## AvB

*Gent (Centre) - Gent (IKEA) - Brugge (x3.6)*


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N67 Highway To Hell*

It has been reported that the "Highway To Hell" is no more. N67 had this nickname, grafitti'ed across signs, due to the extremely poor condition between Eupen and the German border. It had concrete slabs that were likely built before or during World War II. It is now entirely renovated. It used to be described as the worst road in Belgium.

So this is no more:


----------



## Thermo

Apparently the nickname is now 'Speedway to Heaven' :skull:


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*section control*

Average speed checks in Flanders. Green = active, yellow = planned.


----------



## Spookvlieger

The planned one in Tienen is active. The planned one on the N80 between Sint-Truiden and Hasselt is installed but not active.

There is an average speed check in Linter on a provincial road between Oplinter (just outside Tienen) and Budingen wich is active for 2 years allready but not indicated on this map.

The average speed checks on the N29 between Tienen and Diest are being installed as we speak. 

Together with this nearly all mayor roads in and out of towns have plate recognition camera's installed (APNR).

The speed at wich this camera network is being deployed is something I'm not used to from out government


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This map was made by Wegen en Verkeer so they may not show municipal / provincial section control locations.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Ok that makes sense. I think there is a lot of Provincial roads with average speed checks allready across Flanders...


----------



## Kanadzie

What a horrible way to live
It is really strange how the EU keeps freaking out because Facebook left a cookie but then the member states are putting mass surveillance cameras everywhere and ticketing people in section controls...


----------



## Spookvlieger

looks like a pedestrian/bike bridge or very local road at least, hard for two cars to pass I would say.

Edit: This is the bridge : https://www.google.be/maps/@50.7286...4!1sKzdxg2OjfwhqOj3Z80DWPg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Looks like a bridge with steel I beams bearing the road surface, no concrete beams. The pillars are concrete though. Very local traffic, area is more like a rural area.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The bridge has been confirmed to be damaged beyond repair. It will have to be demolished. There is no apparent risk of immediate collapse, so it may remain for some time. R0 opened to traffic before the morning rush hour.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E42 Autoroute de Wallonie*

L'Avenir reports that the 15 kilometer section of E42 between Andenne and Daussoulx (E411) has been expanded to six lanes. The additional lanes opened up on 13 August, the widening took exactly one year. 

There is now a continuous six lane motorway from Liège to Charleroi. In fact, there is a six lane east-west motorway corridor across Wallonia, almost continuously from near the French border to near the German border, with only a brief four lane section near La Louvière, and the final border sections have four lanes as well.

https://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf2018...e-et-daussoulx-on-roule-enfin-sur-trois-voies


----------



## ChrisZwolle

N5 / A304 is starting to pop up in Google Maps as an alternative route between major cities in the Benelux and France. It is only 7 minutes longer than the route via Luxembourg - Metz. Once N5 opens from Couvin to the French border, the difference could be close to zero, and even be faster during rush hour in Luxembourg (which is quite severe).

It would be interesting to see how this plays out. N5 is still a surface street between Charleroi and Somzée, with partial grade-separation between Somzée and Couvin.










Google also redirects traffic across R9 in Downtown Charleroi. That's an elevated one-way motorway ring road. R3 would only be slightly longer. Google Maps also takes through traffic on E25 through the center of Liège instead of via the motorway ring road, I suppose they're not too happy with that in Liège.


----------



## Ni3lS

Today I drove the recently opened A11 North of Bruges. There is a small part with a bridge that is not classified as a highway. So you're on the highway, then the bridge part is not a highway (as the signs indicate) and right after the bridge it's a highway again. Just out of curiosity, was it designed this way or is it in general not possible for bridges in Belgium to be part of highways or classified as highways?


----------



## Glodenox

The latter: it is not allowed to have a movable bridge on a highway in Belgium, so they had to make that part non-highway.


----------



## 8166UY

Kinda defeats the purpose of that law...


----------



## Pell0

Got a speeding ticket for going 101 (corrected to 94 kp/h) in the A14 E17 near Gentbrugge (€53). I have no excuse but to my surprise the ticket was more expensive than it would have been in the Netherlands (about 30 euro's). I always taught speeding tickets in Belgium would be less expensive the they are in the Netherlands since most stuff seems to be cheaper in Belgium..

Have I been living under false impressions my whole life?


----------



## Ni3lS

^^ I thought fuel would be cheaper in Belgium so I filled up on diesel only to find out it was 15 cents per liter cheaper in my homecountry upon crossing the border :dunno:


----------



## Puinkabouter

Diesel used to be a lot cheaper but the taxes on it have been increased gradually in the past few years to get its price on more or less the same level als petrol. Mostly in an effort to improve air quality over time.

Most groceries are cheaper in NL than in Belgium, btw. Definitely not everything is cheaper there than in the Netherlands.


----------



## jdb.2

But car & home ownership overall are more expensive in the Netherlands, so I think the total cost of living is still more affordable in Belgium.
The tradeoff is that we have lower quality houses, appartments and roads.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N5 Couvin - Charleroi*

N5 is a major route nationale in Wallonia, it connects Charleroi with Reims in France. It is a dual carriageway for most of its length, with free-flow traffic south of Somzée.

I don't know when it was built (little info is known about the Belgian express roads), it seems like the 1960s and it still has the orginal concrete pavement, very bumpy and loud, there were "route degradée" signs all over the place. A bit of nostalgia. Charleroi looks utterly depressing though, I took N5 right into the city center.


N5 Belgium-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


N5 Belgium-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


N5 Belgium-3 by European Roads, on Flickr


N5 Belgium-4 by European Roads, on Flickr


N5 Belgium-5 by European Roads, on Flickr


N5 Belgium-6 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## da_scotty

You could tell me that this was taken in a poorer eastern european country and I would have believed you.

Charleroi is indeed a sad place...


----------



## jdb.2

I would rather say Charleroi (and other places in the Hainaut region) looks more like some places in the UK with abandoned industry, or northern France.


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's the general state of the infrastructure in that region wich adds to the feeling It's all lost glory. Anyone who has seen the elevated beltway of Charlerloi from underneath will think twice driving over it. Cracked concrete and rusted rebar are showing everywhere, even pieces of concrete missing. There are more bridges in this state across Belgium , mostly on local roads but the beltway in charlerloi is one of the worst I've seen in my life.

Also the housing stock in that region is mostly old and all build during the Industrial revolution not to mention most of those have never been refurbished and the once red bricks are black and grey from the pollution of long gone factories.

The city center itself is rather okayish though.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The R9 viaducts have been extensively renovated between 2014 and 2018. They are currently working on the last section on the southeast side of the ring road.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Luckely they did that. That's the part above the main railway station they are working on now...


----------



## ChrisZwolle

One of the more confusing aspects of Belgian signage is the fact that one signage sequence sometimes consists of different destinations on each sign.

For example, here at Battice, the first sign says Saarbrücken, the second one Trèves (Trier). There is no consistently in choosing the destinations and they are also displayed in two different languages, despite both being German cities.

Also, the E42 indication to Battice / Aubel is wrong. E42 doesn't go there, it continues onto E40 towards Liège.


E40-E42 Battice-1 by European Roads, on Flickr


E40-E42 Battice-2 by European Roads, on Flickr


----------



## woutero

Here's another confusing one I came across recently:

First there's this sign which indicates you need to exit for Liège and Mons:









100 meter further on the left side of the road, there is a distance sign for Mons and Namur, and even for the intersection (1km) that you are already in (the turnoff point is about 100m ahead). In most countries you would interpret this sign as a distance sigh for the A54, but for Namur and Mons you actually have to be in the right lane and take the E42, although Namur is not featured on the signs there:









And then you've got this. No sign for Namur.









It makes you wonder. Didn't the people who installed the distance sign on the left look at it and think: hmm... this might be confusing... let me call someone and make sure we should be doing this.


----------



## General Maximus

How come they spell Saarbrücken the German way, but Treves (Trier) the French way? In France, they signpost Saarbrücken as Sarrebruck.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Think of it this way: the crash barrier loses its potential after an impact. The risk per user is small but the amount of users (maybe over 50,000 per day) increases the risk. So it is a safety hazard, some of those examples are quite serious (on a bridge or at a sign).

In any way, it should be an insurance claim, so there is no reason not to repair it immediately. In the Netherlands there is a general contractor that is responsible for small repairs and maintenance for each section of motorway, so this type of repairs don't need a tender procedure. The maintenance contract will stipulate how quickly something should be repaired, in the Netherlands it is generally within hours, not days or longer.


----------



## Spookvlieger

The one on the viaduct of vilvoorde (second down from the left) has been there for at least 2 years.

This one on a local road I take sometimes has been destroyed for over 10 years :lol:


----------



## Kanadzie

ChrisZwolle said:


> Think of it this way: the crash barrier loses its potential after an impact. The risk per user is small but the amount of users (maybe over 50,000 per day) increases the risk. So it is a safety hazard, some of those examples are quite serious (on a bridge or at a sign)..


especially since, clearly, the risk of hitting that exact spot, is generally much greater than average of the total length of the place (because of road geometry or whatever, but especially since... already crashed)


----------



## General Maximus

Loving it!

Just heard an advert on Flemish radio. The narrator says that Belgium is not exactly known for good roads. But not to worry, the new Mitsubishi is shock resistant to the worst of potholes...


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> Think of it this way: the crash barrier loses its potential after an impact. The risk per user is small but the amount of users (maybe over 50,000 per day) increases the risk. So it is a safety hazard, some of those examples are quite serious (on a bridge or at a sign).


Not only that, but a damaged barrier could be worse to collide with than a correctly installed one, so the damaged barrier itself increases risk. In the UK these are generally quickly as well, depending on exact location and severity of damage


----------



## Puinkabouter

General Maximus said:


> Just heard an advert on Flemish radio. The narrator says that Belgium is not exactly known for good roads. But not to worry, the new Mitsubishi is shock resistant to the worst of potholes...


And they have a poster campaign too 








(It says: "built for Belgian roads").

Pretty sad. But, despite all efforts, definitely still true.


----------



## Glodenox

Because laughing at someone in the face is a good selling tactic?
Seems to be a marketing campaign that is mostly aimed at making the headlines due to being "edgy" and "daring".


----------



## Puinkabouter

Not really. It's not like the citizens of Belgium are blind idiots who take pride in those roads. Most Belgians are as frustrated with them as non-Belgians are amused by them.

This campaign doesn't laugh at Belgium's citizens. It laughs at their disappointing institutions, just like most Belgians do themselves. It offers them an empowering solution, in a way.


----------



## mappero

^^ Love it!!
So many Belgians don't care about the roads as they drive company's car


----------



## jdb.2

ChrisZwolle said:


> In the Netherlands this type of damage would require *immediate* repairs, not in 2 days, not in 2 months. He said that most of the damaged / destroyed crash barriers are either in the jurisdiction of Brussels or Wallonia.


How fast are they fixed on toll-free French roads and in Germany?


----------



## General Maximus

Funny you asked that. I drove around Paris today, and quite a few à damaged. On tollroads they usually leave a cone at a damaged barrier until it gets repaired.


----------



## btrs

ChrisZwolle said:


> A compilation of damaged or completely destroyed crash barriers on a 100 km drive from Antwerpen to Charleroi, by _snelwegfreak_.
> 
> In the Netherlands this type of damage would require *immediate* repairs, not in 2 days, not in 2 months. He said that most of the damaged / destroyed crash barriers are either in the jurisdiction of Brussels or Wallonia.


Well, coincidentally lol they are now laying cables (either fiber-optic or power) between Zemst and the resting area at Peutie, and they cut the barriers at their worst parts anyway. So some sections will be replaced (at the landside anyway, the parts at the railway side will probably remain until the next refurbishment).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*R1 Antwerpen*

This graph shows the average amount of minutes with traffic jam at the Kennedy Tunnel, Antwerpen-bound (and other locations). 

It has increased significantly in recent years, from 450 minutes (7.5 hours) per day in 2014 to 660 minutes (11 hours) per day in 2018.

This may be the worst bottleneck in all of Europe. An average of 11 hours of congestion per day, in one direction...


----------



## General Maximus

The problem here is mainly the high amount of heavy freight traffic, I find. They're coming and going from Holland, France, UK and Germany and congregate at Antwerp. 

I wonder if it's just not possible to build routes coming and going from Breda, Eindhoven, Gent, Brussels, Bruges and Liege and have connections with all those routes somewhere else at different places.


----------



## General Maximus

^^ Just made a little example...


----------



## Stuu

^^

Would getting rid of the toll on the R2 make much difference? €19 is quite a lot, maybe an hour's pay for a truck driver...


----------



## General Maximus

^^ I wouldn't have thought so. It's all mainly port traffic out there, and that route is not really connecting to any other routes. It'd only block stuff on the other side of the Kennedy..


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They should've built R2 as the second beltway of Antwerpen. 

R0 and R1 and the motorways feeding into it are not only urban chokepoints, they are national chokepoints as almost all traffic in and through Belgium has to pass across R1 and R0 to get to other parts of the country. This makes the road system hugely vulnerable.


----------



## General Maximus

Like I said, building routes avoiding Antwerp all together would be an option.


----------



## da_scotty

General Maximus said:


> Like I said, building routes avoiding Antwerp all together would be an option.


Then again, the area around Antwerpen/Brussels is really build up with terrible Urban sprawl.

A new motorway would be very expensive and difficult to litigate .hno:


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's fine with lower traffic volumes. But these roads are not that low volume as they used to be 20 or 30 years ago. Pressure on these roads has risen a lot in recent years because they are used as arternative routes to the real motorways since they are clogged up so much... Overflow if you will.


----------



## g.spinoza

Kanadzie said:


> Tons such roads in USA and Canada (well at 110 the sign) without problems...


If you cannot see the problem with entering a high-speed road from a standstill - or, even worse, entering your own driveway decelerating from 110 to zero... hno:


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's fine really if the traffic volumes are low.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Average speed checks in Flanders: 141 are currently planned or operational. 

Yellow = planned
Blue = implementing 
Green = implemented









Source: Wegen en Verkeer

Flanders is becoming somewhat of a mass-surveillance state.


----------



## General Maximus

Oops...


----------



## Glodenox

ChrisZwolle said:


> Average speed checks in Flanders: 141 are currently planned or operational.


And that's just those that are active on the roads maintained by the region. In Mechelen, for example, I know of three other stretches that have average speed checks.


----------



## Spookvlieger

There are more average speed checks indeed but they are owned by local authorities.

The blue ones between Tienen and Diest are operative btw.



ChrisZwolle said:


> Flanders is becoming somewhat of a mass-surveillance state.


If we could see a map that shows all (not only those use for average speed checks) plate recognition camera's that would be much more jaw dropping. My town has plate recognition camera's on every single road leaving the city. Apart from this, there are also around 40 police surveillance camera's in the city center.

In November Flanders had 875 ANPR camera's Wallonia had 33 :rolf:

From the link above:

ANPR BELGIE by Joshua Radoes, on Flickr


----------



## piotr71

Nicely repaved N12 between Malle and Turnhout.


----------



## Batavier

^^ Those 3 lane roads in Belgium always confuse me and seem rather dangerous with opposing traffic using the middle lane. I thought they were being phased out, but apparently not


----------



## General Maximus

Wait, this road is two-way traffic???


----------



## Spookvlieger

Yes they are. Proper suïcide lanes still exist in good old Belgium although increasingly rare.
I recently flashed a Dutch plate over afther driving for a longer distance on the middle lane on a 3 lane stretch of the N3 between Tienen and Sint-Truiden. Dude was looking at me he had seen Jezus Christ when I passed him.


----------



## Attus

General Maximus said:


> Wait, this road is two-way traffic???


Correct. A gool ol' three lane road just like fifty years ago. Obviously resurfaced and repainted recently. Horrible.


----------



## Glodenox

I thought these had all (rightly so) gone extinct :bash: I haven't encountered any for over a decade.

Who in their right mind would still allow these to remain this way? I can only assume local pressure from a local mayor who thinks he's a mobility expert.


----------



## g.spinoza

^^ The same minds that allow 120 km/h motorway-like roads to have private accesses (see few posts earlier). Belgium looks like majorly unsafe as it comes to road.


----------



## snowdog

g.spinoza said:


> If you cannot see the problem with entering a high-speed road from a standstill - or, even worse, entering your own driveway decelerating from 110 to zero... hno:


If I could have my driveway on the motorway I'd be overjoyed.
Finding a 10 second gap is hardly a problem. And there's the hard shoulders if you need to stop...

Admittedly, it's funny how Belgium has gone crazy with some things like avg speed checks, but picks relatively more dangerous designs for other roads.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow, amazing that they still keep such configurations in this day and age. In most countries they were already considered too dangerous in the 1960s and 1970s. 

They could've changed it to a center turn lane like in the U.S. Then that lane is for turning only, not for passing.


----------



## Glodenox

I've just been checking Street View on this stretch. Most of it seems to have a restriction that you may not overtake cars and very often they turn the middle lane into a turning lane. But a sign will of course not stop everybody and there do seem to still be (short) sections in which the middle lane is implemented as a suicide lane as both directions may use it to overtake cars.

I'm not saying "fake news" on this completely as there are still stretches with serious issues, but it doesn't seem as bad as it appears to be on these pictures.


----------



## Wover

g.spinoza said:


> Belgium looks like majorly unsafe as it comes to road.


Road fatality statistics confirm that, Belgium has 50% more road deaths per million inhabitants compared to the Netherlands. It's at a similar level as France though.

Driving around Belgium, it's really not surprising at all. One thing is bad road design, another is bad urban planning, another is bad driving culture and driver training,...

I find it really sad that due to this inability to act on these obvious problems, people are getting killed in traffic for no reason every week.


----------



## General Maximus

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ The same minds that allow 120 km/h motorway-like roads to have private accesses (see few posts earlier). Belgium looks like majorly unsafe as it comes to road.


Some busy dual carriageways in the UK with a 70 MPH (113 km/h) speed limit has cyclists, tractors, private driveways, acces to farms, 90 degree left- and right turns and no lorry overtaking bans. It can always be worse. I don't think that Belgium is doing worse than the UK anyway. In fact, I've got the feeling that Belgium is slowly improving, and the UK is slipping more and more into decline.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Belgium is definitely improving, Flanders more so than Wallonia though. 

Wallonia had a rate of 81 per 1 million in 2015, which is worse than many Eastern European countries.


----------



## MichiH

And it's "werkdagen (exclusief schoolvakanties)" - "working days (excluding school holidays)" - which means that figures cannot be compared to "usually published" figures from other countries where "real" AADT is published.

It doesn't that data is useless - it's important (and quite impressive!) - but it cannot be used for comparsion.


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe the Albert Canal improvements will take some trucks off the roads. E313 runs parallel to the canal and is sort of an industrial zone by itself. It's notable that on the E34 to E314 segment, traffic volumes are relatively similar, there is no significant increase closer to Antwerp as you usually see near major cities. Which tells you that a lot of traffic on E313 has a destination along the corridor itself.


I hope it does but I drive regulary next to the Albert Canal by bike and most goods transported are bulk goods. Not much container ships to be seen. Maybe if you watch 10 ships pass by, one of them is a container ship.

The industrial zones alongside the Albert Canal, From Antwerp all the way to Genk are nearly all either petrochemical companies or logistics and transport. Nearly all those giant buildings are European logistic HQ's from companies around the world. The only logistic HQ using the Canal, wich currently also has its own habour, is Nike Europe in Laakdal.


----------



## General Maximus

*New sign E42-E411 interchange*

New sign spotted by me today. Is Wallonia thinking of bringing national numbering back?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wow, great spot, that is unusual.


----------



## TM_Germany

For a new sign, that looks really battered.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*E403*

E403 (Brugge - Tournai) had a missing section at the regional border. It appears it has been a missing link for about 15 years or even longer.

The Aalbeke - Dottignies section did not open until 1998, however satellite imagery as far back as 1984 shows it almost complete with only a tiny unbuilt section of 1 km at the Walloon side of the regional border.


----------



## Luki_SL

^^what is wrong with this missing section ?


----------



## Glodenox

For over 20 years there were disagreements between the Flanders and Wallonia regions about this motorway (the regions are responsible for building and maintaining the motorways). I can't immediately find more information than that, but I assume Wallonia didn't want to invest money in that section as they didn't profit a lot from it? It is mostly a practical way for them to bypass Lille if they want to go towards Kortrijk or Brugge.

From a physical point of view there is no reason why it should have taken so long. There were no mountains, rivers or any other obstacle to overcome on that stretch of less than a kilometre.


----------



## mgk920

An interesting road. What is the prognosis of a potential southward extension of the E403 from the E42 at Tournai and where is/was it planned to ultimately go? There appears to be a preserved ROW running southward from the E42 interchange.

Also, panning a short distance to the north of the Flanders/Wallonia border I notice a mostly completed local ring motorway around Kortrijk ('R8'), with little bits, pieces and a couple of interchanges not (yet) fully built. What are the plans for 'completing' it, if any now exist?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N5 / E420 Couvin*

The second stage of the N5 / E420 autoroute will open to traffic in early September, an 8 kilometer section between Couvin and the French border. A series of festivities are planned on 31 August and 1 September (which is a weekend).

>> https://sofico.org/autoroute-e420-en-fete-appel-a-candidatures/


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> The second stage of the N5 / E420 autoroute will open to traffic in early September, an 8 kilometer section between Couvin and the French border. A series of festivities are planned on 31 August and 1 September (which is a weekend).
> 
> 
> 
> >> https://sofico.org/autoroute-e420-en-fete-appel-a-candidatures/




N5? Not an A- number, even if they don’t bother posting it?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The whole thing is a bit of a mess.

At the Couvin entrance, there is no motorway regulation sign. In fact there is nothing restricting access at that point. However there are directional signs with E420 and the motorway symbol.

Then, the kilometer markers only have the E420 number, white-on-red. Guide signs have the usual white-on-green E420 number. 

There is an 'end expressway' sign at an off-ramp. Which in Belgium only regulates access (not speed).

There are no A-numbers signposted, but N5 is not signed there either. 

You can see it in the first two minutes of this video:


----------



## mgk920

ChrisZwolle said:


> The whole thing is a bit of a mess.
> 
> At the Couvin entrance, there is no motorway regulation sign. In fact there is nothing restricting access at that point. However there are directional signs with E420 and the motorway symbol.
> 
> Then, the kilometer markers only have the E420 number, white-on-red. Guide signs have the usual white-on-green E420 number.
> 
> There is an 'end expressway' sign at an off-ramp. Which in Belgium only regulates access (not speed).
> 
> There are no A-numbers signposted, but N5 is not signed there either.
> 
> You can see it in the first two minutes of this video:
> 
> [snippage]


Can I safely assume that this is/was planned to be the southward continuation from the R3/A503 interchange on the south edge of Charleroi?

What's the prognosis of south a connection being built within my lifetime?

Mike


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Crazy dude attempts to cross an active railroad on a partially removed level crossing :nuts:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1136325065308594176


----------



## Thermo

New 'welcome' signs when entering Flanders


----------



## Spookvlieger

Is that a serious proposal because that looks like a bad photoshop.


----------



## Thermo

Yes, it's official https://www.benweyts.be/nieuws/vlaa...op-unieke-manier?pq=nieuws&page=1#views-row-2

Each sign costs 23.500 euro :hahano:


----------



## Thermo

The fietssnelwegen (bicycle highways) network keeps expanding. The F11 recently opened between Lier and Antwerp:










The network will be 2400km










Signage





























F1












F212


































www.fietssnelwegen.be


----------



## verreme

^^ I wish my country had this bicycle infrastructure  This (intercity bike lanes) it's what can move people out of cars. Urban bicycle lanes are fine but they are mostly used by people who wouldn't use the car anyway.


----------



## Suburbanist

verreme said:


> ^^ I wish my country had this bicycle infrastructure  This (intercity bike lanes) it's what can move people out of cars. Urban bicycle lanes are fine but they are mostly used by people who wouldn't use the car anyway.


Beware of the development patterns in most of Belgium and Netherlands: cities are actually quite close to each other, so cycling 15km means traveling between two municipalities.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

It was kind of surprising that you were still allowed to drive 120 km/h there. The Flemish part of R0 is hugely congested, also frequently during off-peak hours.

If I'm correct the speed limit reduction only applies to the Flemish part. Evidently the government wants to present some 'serious' measures to save the world from an imminent climate disaster for the summit in Madrid.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> It was kind of surprising that you were still allowed to drive 120 km/h there. The Flemish part of R0 is hugely congested, also frequently during off-peak hours.
> 
> If I'm correct the speed limit reduction only applies to the Flemish part. Evidently the government wants to present some 'serious' measures to save the world from an imminent climate disaster for the summit in Madrid.




As far as I can tell, it’s part of the new Flemish Regional government’s climate plan; it wasn’t quite clear to me whether they’re waiting for the other regions to agree (so that it covers the whole Ring I suppose) or proceeding without them.


----------



## MichiH

The N5/E420 Couvin bypass was opened in October 2017 and the southern extension to the French border was opened this September. But there is still a 1km gap in the 2x2 expressway north of the Couvin bypass. Construction works began in October 2016. They build a tunnel under the railway and the tunnel (one carriageway with two-way traffic) is in service since June 2019. It should be completed (2x2 service) by Mid 2020. I've been there a week ago and I'm not sure that the deadline will be met. We will see.






*N5:* Frasnes – Couvin-North 1km (October 2017 to Mid 2020) – project – map


----------



## Penn's Woods

MichiH said:


> The N5/E420 Couvin bypass was opened in October 2017 and the southern extension to the French border was opened this September. But there is still a 1km gap in the 2x2 expressway north of the Couvin bypass. Construction works began in October 2016. They build a tunnel under the railway and the tunnel (one carriageway with two-way traffic) is in service since June 2019. It should be completed (2x2 service) by Mid 2020. I've been there a week ago and I'm not sure that the deadline will be met. We will see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *N5:* Frasnes – Couvin-North 1km (October 2017 to Mid 2020) – project – map




Is it supposed to eventually get an A number (which of course will be ignored except on maps....)?


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Not to my knowledge, but A5 is available...


----------



## MichiH

Penn's Woods said:


> Is it supposed to eventually get an A number (which of course will be ignored except on maps....)?


No, it's signed E420 on direction signs and N5+E420 on km posts. A numbers are also generally used on km posts.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Two Dutch men were killed in a crash on A12 near Zandvliet. The crash occurred at the N101 interchange, which is only 1 kilometer from the Dutch border. Apparently they crashed over the barrier and landed on their roof. The crash occurred last night at 20:30 but weren't found until 12 hours later, despite they were located almost next to the traffic lanes, but in the dark.










>> https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/bui...to-over-de-kop-bij-antwerpen-doden-uren-later

The barrier has a gap at that location:


----------



## Bulevardi

__
http://instagr.am/p/p%2FB68BQEuALAx/

E19 - A7


----------



## da_scotty

^^
The seventies want their restaurant back.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

*N5 Neuville*

120 km/h speed limit :runaway:


----------



## Spookvlieger

There is plenty of that in Wallonia bit usually they've put a concrete barrier in front of the homes.


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## ChrisZwolle

Check out this hugely oversized traffic signal on R20 in Brussels. It is a tunnel entrance. I wonder what it was for. It has since been removed.


----------



## da_scotty

Where is this? I can't find it on streetview?


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## ChrisZwolle

Here it is: Google Maps

It was located at the Leopold II Tunnel at the Sacré-Cœur, it looks like it was removed with the tunnel rehabilitation.


----------



## mappero

ChrisZwolle said:


> Check out this hugely oversized traffic signal on R20 in Brussels. It is a tunnel entrance. I wonder what it was for. It has since been removed.


Those were very old stale lighted signs for oversides vehicles entering the tunnel (no trucks and buses or larger vehicles allowed there). 

TBH, Brussels and general Belgium is quite horrible with signage information for drives of those bigger vehicles and this is changing so ofter even during one year...


----------



## Spookvlieger

VRT reported on the bridges in Flanders in bad to seriously bad condition and that actually need to be renovated and completely replaced. And these are only the road bridges not even the railway bridges wich I ofthen find looking much worse even.









IN KAART: welke bruggen in uw buurt zijn in (zeer) slechte staat? Bekijk het hier


Uit onderzoek van VRT NWS blijkt dat behoorlijk wat bruggen in Vlaanderen en Brussel gerenoveerd moeten worden.




www.vrt.be


----------



## ChrisZwolle

If the bridges received the same amount of maintenance as the motorways during the 1980s and 1990s, there would be reason for concern, yes.


----------



## Spookvlieger

ChrisZwolle said:


> If the bridges received the same amount of maintenance as the motorways during the 1980s and 1990s, there would be reason for concern, yes.


I know many bridges in my area on local roads where the rebar is showing, also on railway bridges. You can see pieces of concrete lying underneath the bridges that have fallen off. And I don't see half of those bridges listed on the map...; The situtaion is many times wose.

I made a complaint about *this* railway bridge 3 times in the last 4 years and they still haven't fixed it. It's much worse now than you can see on this google streetview from 2013! That bridge carries one intercity every hour and it has clear concrete rot in the carrying beam. And that's a relatively new bridge from the late 90's when they replaced a metal bridge that looked like it had its last paint job 100 years ago.

*This bridge* was only replaced recently (2019). Before that I knew it was rotting for at least 10+ years. They managed to put up a plate to warn for falling concrete though


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The new Aalter interchange of E40 has opened to traffic today:


----------



## Puinkabouter

After four years of construction - a much needed change. I once had a job for which I commuted via this exit/entrance almost every day. It was quite dangerous, as the exit (Ghent > Bruges) had a very low capacity, causing queues of hundreds of meters on the highway itself.

Getting on the highway, coming from Tielt and going to Ghent, also caused a lot of problems as it required a left turn, crossing a never-ending flow of semi trucks. Could take several minutes between arriving at the junction and actually making it onto the highway.


----------



## keokiracer

This might be one of the older ones in The Netherlands, from 2007, built by design:








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.nl


----------



## Penn's Woods

Thermo said:


> Never seen this before, but I like it. And old bridge (over E40) in Deinze was transformed into an 'ecoveloduct' (bridge for cyclists and wildlife).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brug wordt ecoveloduct over E40 in Nevele (Deinze) | Wegen en verkeer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wegenenverkeer.be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope the wildlife knows which side is for them


Vive le vélo !


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> This is a relatively recent trend, they are also constructing these in the Netherlands, both on overpasses and through underpasses, where the road is narrowed and some brush is placed to create a wildlife crossing.
> 
> Examples in the Netherlands:
> 
> A1-A35 Azelo - Borne-5 by European Roads, on Flickr
> 
> 
> A1 Oxersteeg 25-03-2020 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


New York City a couple of months ago announced plans for a bike-and-pedestrian bridge across the East River, between Manhattan and Queens.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Apparently there are plans to replace the Zaventem motorway interchange (R0/A201) with a SPUI. The current turbine interchange is a bit oversized for the amount of traffic it carries and the bridges are in poor condition. But I don't understand that this would supposedly cost € 200 million. That's a huge investment to make traffic less fluid...

current interchange:









Render of the future interchange:


----------



## Spookvlieger

WoW I don't think that's a good idea. Traffic on the side of the airport needs to be free flowing at least from and to the airport. This will cause guarantee traffic jams on the exits of the R0. The rest is over dimentioned because there was a highway to start and cut through Brussels and supposed to end on the R21, wich was also supposed to be highways but never build itself, ect, ect.

Also something they conveniently left out if this image in the bottom are the on ramps from the E40 coming from Leuven/Liège dumping a massive amount of traffic on the R0 that gets pre selected (R22 feeder Roads) for the airport at the Woluwelaan/Diegiem interchange. The R0 westbound is 7?lanes on that part with 4lanes that have very intensive waving going on. I wonder how they will solve that if traffic starts backing up on the R0.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently there are plans to replace the Zaventem motorway interchange (R0/A201) with a SPUI. The current turbine interchange is a bit oversized for the amount of traffic it carries and the bridges are in poor condition. But I don't understand that this would supposedly cost € 200 million. That's a huge investment to make traffic less fluid...
> 
> current interchange:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Render of the future interchange:


That ceases to be a motorway interchange.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They're also talking about turning A201 into an 'urban boulevard' so A201 also likely ceases to be a motorway.

This would be the first SPUI in Belgium. A SPUI is not very common in Europe, Germany seems to be the only country that has implemented them on a larger scale. Come to think of it, I can't recall ever having seen a SPUI outside of Germany...









Single-point urban interchange - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Spookvlieger

There is practially many companies that are on the edge of leaving central Brussels for the outskirts with complaints about secuirity issues and bad mobility. Now Brussels has every right to try and get less traffic towards the city center and poltical landscape shows the inhabitants of Brussels want this as well. 
However, Brussels are and incredible amount of office space for a city its size and allready a lot of that is vacant as we speak. Making it harder for people to get by car to Brussels, wich many do because a lot workers come in from area's far away outside the city with little means of public transportaion, will only push a further trend outwards to office parks.

I'm not saying this is bad; they could convert all that office space into living space but people need to understand that if you want to change car usage in a city like Brussels were hundred of thousands commute to by car for far away area's, thing will start to shift and first will go down hill... Judging that Brussels absolutely needs the money out of the taxes these large office spaces generate this could be a good dent in the Brussels budget, wich isn't anything to brag about to begin with.


----------



## Puinkabouter

This interchange, like most of the R0 and half of the A201, is in the Flemish Region, not in the Brussels Capital Region.

The regions are funded by a grant from the federal government, based on an intricate mechanism that is partly based on the size of their populations. The federal government also has a separate budget for investments in Brussels to contribute to the burdens of being the capital (mostly related to the flood of commuters). Regions can add a small percentage to the federal personal income tax for their own use, but that only applies to their residents, not to businesses on their territories. They also get income from registration rights for real estate transactions. If a lot of buildings were to change owners (which usually happens when offices become dwellings), that actually increases the income of the region.

At a municipal level it is possible to get some cash inflow from the presence of offices, but municipalities in Belgium are also for the main part funded by a grant from the region they are in.

The shift away from car-centrism towards a mix is not a trend that is unique to Brussels - far from it, even.

People aren't biologically tied to their cars. Making car commutes less attractive doesn't simply lead to people just driving elsewhere. It also leads to people swapping cars for something else. This project also comes with a bunch of new cycleways and space for separate tram and bus infrastructure.


----------



## ChrisZwolle




----------



## Spookvlieger

We are so bankrupt we now use canvas instead of metal plating 😅


----------



## PovilD

ChrisZwolle said:


> They're also talking about turning A201 into an 'urban boulevard' so A201 also likely ceases to be a motorway.
> 
> This would be the first SPUI in Belgium. A SPUI is not very common in Europe, Germany seems to be the only country that has implemented them on a larger scale. Come to think of it, I can't recall ever having seen a SPUI outside of Germany...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Single-point urban interchange - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


I saw similar junctions in Reykjavik, Iceland in Google Maps.








I don't remember seeing such junctions in other countries though.



ChrisZwolle said:


>


I could easily make this design by using tools of old MS Paint  Wondering if those elements were actually created by MS Paint and featured here.

Belgium astonishes me with its directional signage design standards though.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Some of the older style exits on Belgian highways could be easily converted to SPUI interchanges. In many cases exits like *this*, *this,* *these or this* where replaced with two roundabouts on either side.

What's the advantage of SPUI exists? Can they handle more traffic?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


>


What are we supposed to be noticing, the tiny E-numbers?

And if you had pixelated the sign, you could have made that your entry in Guess the Highway.


----------



## Puinkabouter

^^ They're just canvas wrapped around the old signage. It's already coming off in the top left corners.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Puinkabouter said:


> ^^ They're just canvas wrapped around the old signage. It's already coming off in the top left corners.


Right. I didn’t see that until I switched to my phone and was able to blow it up.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

They also flipped the arrows on E40 at Aalter, but not in the same way that they did around Antwerp.


----------



## mgk920

Spookvlieger said:


> Some of the older style exits on Belgian highways could be easily converted to SPUI interchanges. In many cases exits like *this*, *this,* *these or this* where replaced with two roundabouts on either side.
> 
> What's the advantage of SPUI exists? Can they handle more traffic?


The SPUI ('Single Point Urban Interchange') is often used when the freeway/motorway right of way might be on the narrow side. Their big advantage is that vehicles that are turning left (or right in 'drive on the left' countries) onto or off of the freeway in one direction do not interfere with those vehicles that are making similar turns in the opposite direction. That eliminates a traffic carrying disadvantage with conventional 'diamond' interchanges. OTOH, they are a bit more expensive than conventional diamonds in that they need much larger bridge structures than with regular diamonds.

They are fairly common in parts of the USA.

Mike


----------



## Spookvlieger

mgk920 said:


> The SPUI ('Single Point Urban Interchange') is often used when the freeway/motorway right of way might be on the narrow side.


I can see the point of that when there is little room. It makes perfectly sense in densly build up area's. However I can't see the point of a SPUI in the place of a turbine interchange at all.

@ChrisZwolle From the looks of it, they will use the existing bridge for the SPUI. It's wide enough, capable of supporting 3 lanes in each direction. Curently ony 2 lanes in use and very wide shoulders.


----------



## Thermo

ChrisZwolle said:


>


Wallonia adopting a new font? (must say I like it)


----------



## The Wild Boy

Gib map of Belgian motorways


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The Walloon government has adopted the _Plan mobilité et infrastructures pour tous 2020-2026_ on 9 July.

This mobility plan 'for everyone' outlines spending for the next 5-6 years. They claimed it was a huge shift from road spending to other modalities. The actual budget is difficult to find, both the press release and program page do not link to it.

But I found it here: https://rodriguedemeuse.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/PMIPT-2020-2026.pdf

The biggest items are the N5 / E420 upgrade south of Charleroi:


N5 _Réhabilitation et sécurisation de la N5 - E420, y c Viaduc d'Yves-Gomzée_ (municipality of Walcourt): € 37.8 million
N5 _Réhabilitation et sécurisation de la N5 - E420 au sud de Charleroi (phases suivantes)_ (all municipalities between Charleroi and Couvin): € 33 million

So a € 70 million investment is planned for N5 over the next 5-6 years. I think they will upgrade the existing dual carriageway to motorway standards, like they did near Somzée. 

It's not clear if this includes a new motorway alignment closer to Charleroi, where the existing N5 cannot be upgraded to a motorway. I think they would need to go through separate plan approval, which doesn't seem likely under the current anti-car government.


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## Uppsala

ChrisZwolle said:


> They also flipped the arrows on E40 at Aalter, but not in the same way that they did around Antwerp.



So Flemish signs should have arrows pointing upwards in the Swedish way?

Signs in French should have arrows pointing downwards?

What should this be good for? Do they see any kind of culture in this? That arrows pointing upwards are Swedish-German-Dutch? While downward-pointing arrows are British-French-Italian? Or something like that?

I actually think this is pretty silly.


----------



## Spookvlieger

It's just that the Flemish want a different standard than the Walloon, and that goes for nearly everything I could possibly imagine. Everything is always of two different standards in Belgium.


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## Uppsala

Spookvlieger said:


> It's just that the Flemish want a different standard than the Walloon, and that goes for nearly everything I could possibly imagine. Everything is always of two different standards in Belgium.



Switzerland also has more than one language. If you drive from D-border to I-border, you will see signs in German in the north and Italian in the south of Switzerland. But the signs have the same standard.

So I still think that this with different standards on signs in Flanders and Wallonia is incredibly ridiculous and silly.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

In terms of road ownership, Wallonia and Flanders are basically like two different countries. Both are implementing new style signage separately. Both fund their own roads and set out their own mobility policies. There is no national road authority.


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## MichiH

Uppsala said:


> Switzerland also has more than one language.


It's not about language but about "nationality". Switzerland is *one* country in its citizens' minds. Belgium not.


----------



## The Wild Boy

Can i see a map of the motorway system in Belgium?


----------



## Spookvlieger

This map doesn't include N- numbered roads with highway standard only A/E numbered roads. I've never seen a complete map of Belgium with all highway standard roads on it.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Uppsala said:


> Switzerland also has more than one language. If you drive from D-border to I-border, you will see signs in German in the north and Italian in the south of Switzerland. But the signs have the same standard.
> 
> So I still think that this with different standards on signs in Flanders and Wallonia is incredibly ridiculous and silly.


As Chriszwolle explained, Highways are not a federal matter anymore but a state matter and Flanders want to tackle things differently than Wallonia. Not compairable with Switserland at all.


----------



## MichiH

The Wild Boy said:


> Can i see a map of the motorway system in Belgium?





Spookvlieger said:


> I've never seen a complete map of Belgium with all highway standard roads on it.


So, you need to draw your own 





__





Travel Mapping: Mapview







travelmapping.net








__





Travel Mapping: Mapview







travelmapping.net


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> In terms of road ownership, Wallonia and Flanders are basically like two different countries. Both are implementing new style signage separately. Both fund their own roads and set out their own mobility policies. There is no national road authority.


I’m sort of surprised the route-numbering system is still unified....


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> In terms of road ownership, Wallonia and Flanders are basically like two different countries. Both are implementing new style signage separately. Both fund their own roads and set out their own mobility policies. There is no national road authority.


And there are harmless variations from state to state in the U.S., from province to province in Canada.... I actually roll my eyes a bit when the feds try to standardize, say, exit numbering or mixed-case fonts on city street signs, because I don’t see the need, particularly for the latter, and it’s really not the way we’re supposed to do things.

But unless one side or the other is rejecting sign formats solely because they’re used on the other side, I don’t see different entities making different decisions as nefarious or even bad, and I don’t know that I’d read implications for the future existence of the country into it.


----------



## da_scotty

Penn's Woods said:


> But unless one side or the other is rejecting sign formats solely because they’re used on the other side, I don’t see different entities making different decisions as nefarious or even bad, and I don’t know that I’d read implications for the future existence of the country into it.


Sadly that is the thing. Belgium is a cluster****.
For example, currently with the corona-crisis decisions have to be made by 8 or 9 (they aren't sure themselves) Health ministers who all have different opinions and jurisdictions, which also overlap. Compared to that the road problems are a breeze.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The road ownership and responsibility is in fact clearly delineated in Belgium. They are owned and operated by the three regions, with no overlapping or higher authority.

The biggest problem is Brussels, where the Capital Region exercises control over portions of R0 which makes it rather difficult to get things in agreement. For example near Vilvoorde, the ring road passes through Brussels for 800 meters without any interchange or connection to their road network, yet cooperation is vital for the widening of R0 in that area. R0 also briefly crosses into Brussels territory on the east and west side of the city.


----------



## mgk920

At least here in the USA, there is this thing called the 'Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices' ('MUTCD') that is agreed to and enforced at the federal level by various state level transportation people (the USA is a federal republic, a 'federation', created by its states, not the other way around) and that publication dictates a nationwide code on what road signs, paint lines and so forth should look like and how they are used. It is what ensures, for example, that a STOP sign here in Wisconsin looks and works the same as a STOP sign in Florida, New York or California, or any other USA state.

I have also seen writings over the years about the effect of the MUTCD on issues relating to overall non-road related national unity.

Mike


----------



## Penn's Woods

mgk920 said:


> At least here in the USA, there is this thing called the 'Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices' ('MUTCD') that is agreed to and enforced at the federal level by various state level transportation people (the USA is a federal republic, a 'federation', created by its states, not the other way around) and that publication dictates a nationwide code on what road signs, paint lines and so forth should look like and how they are used. It is what ensures, for example, that a STOP sign here in Wisconsin looks and works the same as a STOP sign in Florida, New York or California, or any other USA state.
> 
> I have also seen writings over the years about the effect of the MUTCD on issues relating to overall non-road related national unity.
> 
> Mike


One could argue, but one won’t, whether the original 13 states created the Union or the people created the whole system; the other 37 states were created BY it.


----------



## Ingenioren

Yeah that's boring, it's nice that you can see where a road is geographically due to small differences in sign standards etc.


----------



## Puinkabouter

For what it's worth, I do find the upwards pointing arrows more readable than the downwards pointing arrows. In my recollection, they were introduced in Flanders on the R1, in an attempt to improve traffic flow by having some lanes have mixed destinations. It's much easier to communicate that with upward pointing arrows than downward pointing arrows imo.

Even with the old signage there are some places where the downward pointing arrows were mixed with upward facing arrows for some directions (like on the E40 Ostend > Brussels right before the Groot-Bijgaarden interchange with R0). If with downward pointing arrows you still have to use upward pointing arrows, but not the other way around, then you might as well just only have upward pointing arrows.

In some places it still feels a bit half-assed though. Like on the E40 Liège > Brussels right before the interchange with R0.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Puinkabouter said:


> For what it's worth, I do find the upwards pointing arrows more readable than the downwards pointing arrows. In my recollection, they were introduced in Flanders on the R1, in an attempt to improve traffic flow by having some lanes have mixed destinations. It's much easier to communicate that with upward pointing arrows than downward pointing arrows imo.


Yes, upward arrows are better suited to show lane splits and mixed destinations, this is also the reason why the Netherlands switched to them. Strangely, Germany has used upward arrows for years but they often do not show taper exits on them. A taper exit is an exit where a second lane becomes available at the split. If you don't sign it in advance, almost nobody will use that capacity.


----------



## Uppsala

ChrisZwolle said:


> Yes, upward arrows are better suited to show lane splits and mixed destinations, this is also the reason why the Netherlands switched to them. Strangely, Germany has used upward arrows for years but they often do not show taper exits on them. A taper exit is an exit where a second lane becomes available at the split. If you don't sign it in advance, almost nobody will use that capacity.



Upward arrows come from Sweden. Germany has had it for a long time, but not quite as long as Sweden. Old German signs actually had downward arrows, but it was many years ago that they changed from the old standard.

Sweden has always had upward arrows. There has never been anything else. Germany has for some reason followed Sweden when they introduced upward arrows.

Modern Dutch signs with upward arrows look Swedish. New signs in Flanders in Belgium also feel Swedish. The signs also feel very Swedish in Flanders, as they have the combination of having upward arrows but then that the road numbers are only signposted with E-numbers in the same way as in Sweden.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The speed limit on the new E420 around Couvin has been raised to 120 km/h.









E420 à Couvin : la limitation de la vitesse rehaussée à 120km/h


Les résultats des derniers tests ont démontré que la rugosité est à présent suffisamment performante pour lever la limitation de vitesse imposée depuis l’ouverture du second tronçon du contournement de Couvin en septembre 2019




www.dhnet.be


----------



## DannyBoy85

ChrisZwolle said:


> The speed limit on the new E420 around Couvin has been raised to 120 km/h.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E420 à Couvin : la limitation de la vitesse rehaussée à 120km/h
> 
> 
> Les résultats des derniers tests ont démontré que la rugosité est à présent suffisamment performante pour lever la limitation de vitesse imposée depuis l’ouverture du second tronçon du contournement de Couvin en septembre 2019
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dhnet.be


Pretty seldom nowadays to raise speed limits in an era with anti-car mentality.


----------



## btrs

ChrisZwolle said:


> In terms of road ownership, Wallonia and Flanders are basically like two different countries. Both are implementing new style signage separately. Both fund their own roads and set out their own mobility policies. There is no national road authority.


That's why I am possibly one of the few people that wants this authority (mobility and traffic regulations) moved back to the federal level. *One country, one set of practices and rules*. Would also come in handy for other nasty cases like the noise abations around Brussels Airport (no less than 3 levels of government involved, who all clash on the subject !), the future "smart" toll-driving where each region wants to implement a different system, etc.. And don't get started about the "regionalization" of SNCB (Belgian railways), where some nationalist parties want to give regional lines to De Lijn or other contenders..


----------



## btrs

ChrisZwolle said:


> They're also talking about turning A201 into an 'urban boulevard' so A201 also likely ceases to be a motorway.


I take this road daily to and from work and I'd hate to see this happening. I mean, with the "demotion" of the E40 from Evere onwards also into this "urban boulevard" they made it into a crawl-road instead of a fast access into Brussels. A few years ago I went to Berlin and the motorway went all the way to the Funkturm (Berliner Messe). Why should it be different in Brussels ?


----------



## Penn's Woods

So I caught this on Vive le vélo. The woman in the picture (and I hope it’s okay to share a television screen cap here) is, if I understood right, a cycling columnist from the Netherlands, who went for a ride in the country south of Brussels before appearing in the show. In other words, this is the Flemish-Walloon regional border. Got me to wondering how many places in Europe you can find this sort of sign within a country.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

This became necessary after Flanders implemented a different default speed limit than Wallonia on rural roads (70 vs 90 km/h). 

I've seen people arguing that the highway code and road operations should've remained a federal competency.


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> This became necessary after Flanders implemented a different default speed limit than Wallonia on rural roads (70 vs 90 km/h).
> 
> I've seen people arguing that the highway code and road operations should've remained a federal competency.


I’m surprised the numbering system is still unified, and directional signage is mostly identical. Is all that maintained by agreement among the regions?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> This became necessary after Flanders implemented a different default speed limit than Wallonia on rural roads (70 vs 90 km/h).
> 
> I've seen people arguing that the highway code and road operations should've remained a federal competency.


Also, that symbol to the right of the autoroute symbol is unfamiliar to me.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The numbering system may only be unified because not many new roads are being built in Belgium these days. New roads that cross regional boundaries are exceedingly rare. The numbering system was inherited from the federal days and hasn't changed much.

The directional signage is already changing, Walloon cities are implementing a new style of local signage and Sofico is experimenting with new motorway signage (just like Flanders).

The other symbol is a four lane divided highway. Belgium also applies a 120 km/h speed limit on those (unless otherwise posted). I believe Belgium has the highest posted speed limit on such roads in Europe (four lane roads that are not motorways and can have intersections and tractors on them).


----------



## Spookvlieger

I believe it's the same in many rural/ex-urban US area's where big roads divided by a median are highway speed but they still have local slow traffic, level crossings and driveways of houses/businesses connected to them.

Besides France and Belgium, I don't think I've seen anything like that in Western Europe.

Also found in Belgium are 2x2 roads with no median but just a painted line with speed limit of 90km/h like this:
N76
N76, 3590 Diepenbeek








N76 · N76, 3590 Diepenbeek, Belgium


N76, 3590 Diepenbeek, Belgium




goo.gl




Also pretty unusual for western Europe outside of Belgium where these roads are common. On some of these roads in Belgium they just placed removable concrete barriers in the center if there was to much crashes.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Spookvlieger said:


> I believe it's the same in many rural/ex-urban US area's where big roads divided by a median are highway speed but they still have local slow traffic, level crossings and driveways of houses/businesses connected to them.
> 
> Besides France and Belgium, I don't think I've seen anything like that in Western Europe.
> 
> Also found in Belgium are 2x2 roads with no median but just a painted line with speed limit of 90km/h like this:
> N76
> N76, 3590 Diepenbeek
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N76 · N76, 3590 Diepenbeek, Belgium
> 
> 
> N76, 3590 Diepenbeek, Belgium
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also pretty unusual for western Europe outside of Belgium where these roads are common. On some of these roads in Belgium they just placed removable concrete barriers in the center if there was to much crashes.


Don’t hold me to this, because I’m not claiming knowledge of speed laws, but I don’t think I’ve encountered any roads that weren’t freeways/motorways/autoroutes... in the U.S. with limits above 55 m.p.h. / 88 km/h. Which as you may know was the national speed limit from the mid-70s until about 1987. Then, states were permitted to raise it to 65 on Interstates outside of urban areas, then on all freeways; then finally limits above 65 began to appear, but I think that’s because the feds stopped trying to regulate that at all. But the history seems relevant because it’s almost as if the 55 limit for non-freeways has stuck to this day. But - disclaimer - I’ve never driven west of Illinois and Wisconsin or south of Virginia and Kentucky. So I’m basically talking about the Northeast and Northeast-adjacent areas.


----------



## Attus

ChrisZwolle said:


> The other symbol is a four lane divided highway. Belgium also applies a 120 km/h speed limit on those (unless otherwise posted). I believe Belgium has the highest posted speed limit on such roads in Europe (four lane roads that are not motorways and can have intersections and tractors on them).


Correct. Since in Germany those roads have no limit at all  (OK, the majority of them have signposted limits).


----------



## ChrisZwolle

The German ones that could have no speed limit are _Autobahnähnlich_ (motorway-like). The Belgian non-motorways are not motorway-like, they have at-grade intersections, shoulders are often lacking, they sometimes do not have a median barrier and sometimes even driveway access. Most of these roads are in the Ardennes. It's quite an experience, some of those feels like you're driving in the 1960s, especially if they still have the original concrete and lampposts.


----------



## Spookvlieger

The A12 in Flanders between Boom and Brussels is a non highway standard highway with level crossings and sections of 120km/h with driveways acces. And on top of that it's 3 lanes each direction on some of those parts.

The N80 I drive daily is 120km/h with very short exits/entrance (basically streets that connect to it with super short exit/merge lane, only several meters in lenght) and also level and non level crossings.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Spookvlieger said:


> The A12 in Flanders between Boom and Brussels is a non highway standard highway with level crossings and sections of 120km/h with driveways acces. And on top of that it's 3 lanes each direction on some of those parts.
> 
> The N80 I drive daily is 120km/h with very short exits/entrance (basically streets that connect to it with super short exit/merge lane, only several meters in lenght) and also level and non level crossings.


I did the A12. On a Thursday afternoon in July. (Not THIS July.) I just remember it as busy, and not at all freeway-like.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Nope it's not freeway at all, at least some sections aren't. Still it's numbered as such. And sometimes N roads wich aren't supposed to be freeways, are defenately freeways with highway standards (exits, interchanges, shoulders ect). Wich shows numbering in Belgium means nothing for a large part.

At least not like in The Netherlands where freeways are always numbered as A roads and non freeways always numbered as N roads or no number at all.
This video covers all sections of road numbered as A12(freeway numbering in theory)


----------



## Ingenioren

Penn's Woods said:


> I don’t think I’ve encountered any roads that weren’t freeways/motorways/autoroutes... in the U.S. with limits above 55 m.p.h. / 88 km/h.











Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.co.uk





Here you go


----------



## ChrisZwolle

70 or 75 mph is quite widespread on four lane highways that are not controlled-access highways on the Great Plains. Especially the western half. Texas even allows 75 mph on two-lane roads.


----------



## TrojaA

ChrisZwolle said:


> The German ones that could have no speed limit are _Autobahnähnlich_ (motorway-like). The Belgian non-motorways are not motorway-like, they have at-grade intersections, shoulders are often lacking, they sometimes do not have a median barrier and sometimes even driveway access. Most of these roads are in the Ardennes. It's quite an experience, some of those feels like you're driving in the 1960s, especially if they still have the original concrete and lampposts.


According to the StVO (the law of Road Traffic Regulations), any road which is out of town with at least 2+2 (without structural separation) or 1+1 with structural separation does not have a speed limit. These roads can also be such with at-grade intersections, too.
But all cases I know of that have no shoulders, at-grade intersections and where the regulations would apply, have nowadays (or at least for 20+ years) speed limits between 100km/h and 120km/h.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Ingenioren said:


> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go


I can’t tell where that is, but I know US 69’s a bit far west for me.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A lot of sand from a windstorm has buried the coastal road and coastal tramway of Belgium.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310654030209675264

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310544472971894785

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309784187315122176


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Wallonia has adopted a change of road signage (_signalisation_) as of 1 September 2020. One of the new features is the exit symbol:


















La Wallonie modernise et simplifie la signalisation routière


Pour mettre en place ces mesures, l’arrêté ministériel de 1976 relatif aux placements et aux exigences techniques de la signalisation routière a été modifié et entrera en vigueur au 1er septembre 2020. Cette nouvelle signalisation commencera à être visible dès l’automne puisque l’entrée en...




www.wallonie.be


----------



## da_scotty

Wait didn´t they just implement a new system a few years ago? How many parallel systems are there in Belgium atm?


----------



## keokiracer

da_scotty said:


> Wait didn´t they just implement a new system a few years ago? How many parallel systems are there in Belgium atm?


No, that was Flanders. Flanders and Wallonia do pretty much everything differently when it comes to road management because.... Well, Belgium.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

That's right, Belgium is in terms of road infrastructure essentially two different countries, the only things that binds them together is a uniform route numbering, and most of the highway code. But planning, operations and signage are regional responsibilities. So I think you can expect the differences to become bigger and more visible. 

This was initiated during the third state reform of 1988-1989, the road ownership was devolved to the regions in 1990, when Brussels Region was also established. These differences are only now becoming more visible due to the typical slow pace of road development in Belgium.


----------



## da_scotty

keokiracer said:


> No, that was Flanders. Flanders and Wallonia do pretty much everything differently when it comes to road management because.... Well, Belgium.


Wegenwiki (dutch) sais Wallonia also changed it exit signage a few years ago. From blue backlit overhead signs to this:










While Flanders dit this:


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wallonia has adopted a change of road signage (_signalisation_) as of 1 September 2020. One of the new features is the exit symbol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La Wallonie modernise et simplifie la signalisation routière
> 
> 
> Pour mettre en place ces mesures, l’arrêté ministériel de 1976 relatif aux placements et aux exigences techniques de la signalisation routière a été modifié et entrera en vigueur au 1er septembre 2020. Cette nouvelle signalisation commencera à être visible dès l’automne puisque l’entrée en...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wallonie.be


Are they going to upgrade (if that’s the right word) existing signage or just apply this to new signs?

And I don’t suppose they intend to start posting A-numbers....


----------



## ChrisZwolle

A diamond interchange on N453 just west of Oudenaarde has a very unusual configuration


----------



## keber

It looks very strange for almost for every country in Europe that overtaking in interchange area is allowed.


----------



## Stuu

ChrisZwolle said:


> A diamond interchange on N453 just west of Oudenaarde has a very unusual configuration


Ignoring the fact that I wouldn't trust those cycle lanes, I assume this is another Belgian half-built plan? The route to the east of there has huge blocked areas of tarmac before the motorway and after, and there doesn't appear to be much need for the GSJ: it would be more useful serving the industrial area to the east.


----------



## sponge_bob

Stuu said:


> Ignoring the fact that I wouldn't trust those cycle lanes, I assume this is another Belgian half-built plan?


Looks like a half profile motorway to me too Stuu.


----------



## Spookvlieger

When this road was constructed it had 2+2 configuration from the center of Oudenaarde and remained as such untill right afther this exit. The exit itself was ment to serve and Industrial area that was never fully exploited as you can see on the south side of this road. 

As traffic volumes remained low, the road was changed to 1+1 configuration and they never even bothered to change that exit.

Even now the industrial area is only partly in use and that weird shaped road leading from the exit to the industrial estate is only there since a few years. Before the exit was just a dead end on one side and very local trafic on the other side.


----------



## Uppsala

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wallonia has adopted a change of road signage (_signalisation_) as of 1 September 2020. One of the new features is the exit symbol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La Wallonie modernise et simplifie la signalisation routière
> 
> 
> Pour mettre en place ces mesures, l’arrêté ministériel de 1976 relatif aux placements et aux exigences techniques de la signalisation routière a été modifié et entrera en vigueur au 1er septembre 2020. Cette nouvelle signalisation commencera à être visible dès l’automne puisque l’entrée en...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wallonie.be



This will thus be very similar to those in France. But also Sweden and Switzerland.

But I think it is wrong to change only in Wallonia and leave the old ones in Flanders. It is becoming more difficult for people to understand that it is the same function.


----------



## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> Wallonia has adopted a change of road signage (_signalisation_) as of 1 September 2020. One of the new features is the exit symbol:


I wonder if there is a summary of the differences in the road signs between Wallonie and Flanders available somewhere.


----------



## Spookvlieger

A summary that explains something about Belgium. I think you're just asking to much my friend


----------



## Uppsala

Is there any plan to change the design of exit numbers in Flanders as well? If they follow the new Dutch design, it will still be something like the new one in Wallonia, because Dutch are quite similar to these, even though they are blue.

If it were white "French" in Wallonia and blue "Dutch" in Flanders, it could still work quite well as it would be the same symbol after all.


----------



## MattiG

Uppsala said:


> Is there any plan to change the design of exit numbers in Flanders as well? If they follow the new Dutch design, it will still be something like the new one in Wallonia, because Dutch are quite similar to these, even though they are blue.
> 
> If it were white "French" in Wallonia and blue "Dutch" in Flanders, it could still work quite well as it would be the same symbol after all.


Why would they think about something like that? It is quite evident that Flanders and Wallonie want to be as dissimilar as it would be possible within the specs of the Vienna Convention.


----------



## ChrisZwolle

Signage on R9 in Charleroi


----------



## Luki_SL

^^How old is it?


----------



## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Signage on R9 in Charleroi


:-(


----------



## Spookvlieger

That signage is becoming more black over the years lol. Now it indicaties absolutely nothing...


----------



## Spookvlieger

Luki_SL said:


> ^^How old is it?


It think if we wait just a few more years it will return back to nature as its components are weathered away...

Also that black concrete on the walls and bridge was once white... They could sand blast it or even just with water but no - we like everything black, deteriorated and depressing in this country.


----------



## Kanadzie

^^ do they still have significant coal industry in this area? maybe it is pollution fallout.


----------



## Spookvlieger

That industry almost completely died out in the late 90's and early 2000's. I don't think there is any coal fired industry left right now. Although that concrete went black long time ago... Just like the houses... This must have been one of the most polluted places in Europe some 100-50 years ago. The density of the blast furnaces and coal mines was staggering. My grandfather who had worked in the area always said that at night the sky turned orange and red because there was so many of them.


----------



## Pitchoune

There is definitely no coal industry anymore. That one disappeared in that area somewhere in the 80´s (and as far as I know the last coal mine to close in Belgium was in Zolder in Limburg in 1992) but there is stil some dying metallurgy industry left in Charleroi and you still see some smoke above the city when getting nearer to it. Both industries came often together since local coal was used to directly feed the blast furnaces just around. When coal industry stopped, metallurgy remained longer feeded with other cheaper fuels from further away but it is also in crisis now. That particular city was one of the world’s richest one century ago.


----------



## Spookvlieger

For the people interested: The proper People are US based urban explorers and they've documented Belgium's biggest blast furnaces still standing (scrappers have done a lot of damage to it)(it's not in Charleroi). These guys have respect for industrial buildings and leave everything like it is. They have some serious good content from the US and Europe.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Pitchoune said:


> There is definitely no coal industry anymore. That one disappeared in that area somewhere in the 80´s (and as far as I know the last coal mine to close in Belgium was in Zolder in Limburg in 1992) but there is stil some dying metallurgy industry left in Charleroi and you still see some smoke above the city when getting nearer to it. Both industries came often together since local coal was used to directly feed the blast furnaces just around. When coal industry stopped, metallurgy remained longer feeded with other cheaper fuels from further away but it is also in crisis now. That particular city was one of the world’s richest one century ago.


Charleroi was rich? I had no idea. I knew the -region- was an industrial powerhouse....


----------



## Spookvlieger

In terms of GDP maybe. The hundreds of thousands of steel workers and miners definately weren't rich and lived in slum like conditions.


----------



## Penn's Woods

Spookvlieger said:


> In terms of GDP maybe. The hundreds of thousands of steel workers and miners definately weren't rich and lived in slum like conditions.


Did the owners of the mines and mills at least live there, as was the case in Pittsburgh?


----------



## Spookvlieger

I don't know to be honest. Probably I guess. The city itself and it's 19th and early 20th century upper class housing stock doesn't strike me as more afluent than other Belgian cities. Beautifull and detailed none the less, but nothing you wouldn't find in other cities. The working class houses from that era are also the same, bland and boring row houses build in subpar materials. The only striking difference with the rest of the country is that local poverty has prevented people from upgrading those working class houses while in other cities they have ofthen modernised or cleaned facades.


----------



## Pitchoune

Indeed, the people working in the industry were definitely poor except the bosses that I think were living nearby. You had many housing "cities" where the workers and the bosses were living together next to the mine. The boss and his family were living in the big house and the workers together in another building. In the complex you had a nursery, some shops, sport facilities and so on. This was also a way to control the life of the workers. Regarding wealth, let's say that coal & metallurgy at that time from Charleroi and Liège bassins made Wallonia and Belgium a very rich country and the second industrial power after UK. (Flanders took the lead in the 60's.) But I don't know exactly how incomes were distributed between Charleroi/Wallonia/Belgium. Money seems to have been invested more in the infrastructures (railways, canals, harbours, etc.) than prestigious local architecture. You have a few rich houses in Charleroi but as Spookvlieger said, no more (or even less) than other cities around. So I probably exaggerated a bit. Wealth produced in Charleroi seems to have benefited Brussels and Belgium as a whole more than Charleroi itself.


----------



## Thermo

ChrisZwolle said:


> Signage on R9 in Charleroi


This is obviously a wildlife crossing.


----------



## Spookvlieger

Location is here. That signage has been in a such a state for years now.








50°24'51.8"N 4°27'20.7"E · Charleroi, Belgium


Charleroi, Belgium




maps.app.goo.gl


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## Bender

I don't know about Charleroi specifically (it's just a Ryanair airport to me) but each time I am in Wallonia (Liège mostly), I am surprised by how decrepit the city and its suburbs are. It does feel like a decaying city. I am less often in other parts of Wallonia but the overall impression remains the same.


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## Penn's Woods

Pitchoune said:


> Indeed, the people working in the industry were definitely poor except the bosses that I think were living nearby. You had many housing "cities" where the workers and the bosses were living together next to the mine. The boss and his family were living in the big house and the workers together in another building. In the complex you had a nursery, some shops, sport facilities and so on. This was also a way to control the life of the workers. Regarding wealth, let's say that coal & metallurgy at that time from Charleroi and Liège bassins made Wallonia and Belgium a very rich country and the second industrial power after UK. (Flanders took the lead in the 60's.) But I don't know exactly how incomes were distributed between Charleroi/Wallonia/Belgium. Money seems to have been invested more in the infrastructures (railways, canals, harbours, etc.) than prestigious local architecture. You have a few rich houses in Charleroi but as Spookvlieger said, no more (or even less) than other cities around. So I probably exaggerated a bit. Wealth produced in Charleroi seems to have benefited Brussels and Belgium as a whole more than Charleroi itself.


That’s what I was wondering. The U.S. is so decentralized that the steel magnates of Pittsburgh, for example, tended to live there. Which had some benefit to the community in the form of funding for museums, universities, cultural stuff.... And there are plenty of cities you can say that about. (Their descendants might eventually settle in New York or wherever among other rich people....) Which is different than a city whose industries are all owned by people in, say, the national capital or some other “more prestigious” city.


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## Penn's Woods

Thermo said:


> This is obviously a wildlife crossing.


Rampant socialists? /jk


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## Pitchoune

Bender said:


> I don't know about Charleroi specifically (it's just a Ryanair airport to me) but each time I am in Wallonia (Liège mostly), I am surprised by how decrepit the city and its suburbs are. It does feel like a decaying city. I am less often in other parts of Wallonia but the overall impression remains the same.


Wallonia has some very beautiful clean cities such as Tournai, Mons and Namur. At the opposite you have Charleroi, Verviers, La Louvière and the "Borinage region". Liège is in the middle, it has a lot of history and heritage and some parts are nice, but it is hidden by many ugly buildings a bit everywhere. In my opinion Liège has suffered even more than Brussels from a lot of destructions in the 60's/70's/80's. The city is slowly recovering from those urbanistic experiences and from its recent economical decline. We can be optimistical regarding Liège I think even if it will take time. Charleroi and Verviers have also some potential because they have a lot of (mostly industrial) heritage. The problem with Wallonia is that the old industrial axis West-East Mons-Liège is decaying and it contains all big cities. The new economical and prosperous axis at the moment is the North-South axis Brussels-Luxemburg but it contains only small cities. I'm afraid that no major change will happen with the same policies that have been applied the last decades and there is no sign that things will radically change in the near future. Given its position in Europe, Wallonia should easily be one of the richest regions of Europe again.


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## ChrisZwolle

Liège has the best scenery of any city in Belgium. It's located in the Meuse valley with hills around it. The view from the citadel hospital is quite impressive, despite all the ugly buildings.


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## mgk920

Spookvlieger said:


> Location is here. That signage has been in a such a state for years now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 50°24'51.8"N 4°27'20.7"E · Charleroi, Belgium
> 
> 
> Charleroi, Belgium
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maps.app.goo.gl


Are there any current plans to connect the developing N5 motorway to the A503 and thus the central Charleroi loop?

Mike


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## Spookvlieger

Bender said:


> I don't know about Charleroi specifically (it's just a Ryanair airport to me) but each time I am in Wallonia (Liège mostly), I am surprised by how decrepit the city and its suburbs are. It does feel like a decaying city. I am less often in other parts of Wallonia but the overall impression remains the same.


I can say that most towns/cities are rather tidy in Wallonia as long as you stay out of the Sambre/Meuse valley and the pays-noir. Even along the Sambre there are some nice towns. The capital city of the poorest area (Mons, Hainaut) has a very well kept historic city center.

Liège gets a lot of critics but the absolute center is fine imo. Some bits a bit rough around the edges but that's what I would call typical for any Belgian city. That changes rapidly if you start venturing in the former steel producing suburbs like Seraing, Ougrée or Herstal offcourse.


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## Spookvlieger

mgk920 said:


> Are there any current plans to connect the developing N5 motorway to the A503 and thus the central Charleroi loop?
> 
> Mike


I doubt it. Officially it's not full motorway standard anywhere, not even the newly build parts even though in reality they might as well be up to standard (some parts).
Anyway there is probably to much things in the way including houses, including woodland which at this point is probably protected area.


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## ChrisZwolle

The Walloon regional government is dominated by the socialists and greens, and road infrastructure is usually quite low on their priorities, and the 2021 budget also shows this. In fact they always make a point how this time their policies would lead to a real shift to other modalities. Even though reality usually doesn't reflect this.

However they did adopt the N5 upgrade into their budget, it is by far the largest expenditure on roads in Wallonia, but only the rebuild from Somzée to Couvin to a motorway platform. However it might not gain motorway status, even though this doesn't make any difference (the speed limit will be 120 km/h). 

As some German state ministers are finding out, being in charge of transportation also means that you have to build or open infrastructure your party doesn't want.


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## Pitchoune

There is the so called "Y" or "Trident" proposal to connect the new E420 to Charleroi R3 loop. This is IMO a weird proposal where each upper branch of the Y will be 2x1 lane (because the greens didn't want one real standard highway). This was decided that way in 2015. Budget is 150 millions EUR. This proposal or any other will eventually be done for sure because it is part of the Rotterdam-Marseille (freight) highway and it is the last missing part. But when is the question.










véh/jo = vehicle/day
voie(s)par sens = lane(s) for each direction


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## Spookvlieger

If there is space for 2x1 on the east side of the N5 they could surely fit 2x2. I understand they don't want to do it on the West side with that old growth forest in the way ..


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## Pitchoune

I don’t know the exact considerations behind the decision. IMO the left branch is more important because it connects directly to the A503/E420 and the smal R9 Charleroi loop and then towards Brussels via the A54. You don’t need to change highway with the left branch. The right branch is better if you go to/from Namur/Liège/Germany. There will also be many underground sections from what I understood.


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## Penn's Woods

Spookvlieger said:


> If there is space for 2x1 on the east side of the N5 they could surely fit 2x2. I understand they don't want to do it on the West side with that old growth forest in the way ..


Aren’t -two- roads more disruptive to the environment than one?


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## mgk920

There is no way that that traffic will evenly split between those two branches. I would build that left branch first as two lanes on a four lane ROW and conveniently 'forget' the right one.

Mike


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## Spookvlieger

They could force traffic to split up and make it single direction traffic...otherwise this is a stupid plan. If they are going to build a road anyways they might as well build it full with 2x2 and hard shoulders...

N5 is seeing increasingly higher volume of transit traffic in the last 10 years....

To start with on the west branch at the stub of the A504 there is a row of houses in the way that need to be demolished and their owners expropriated. Something that doesn't go easy and without court rulings in Belgium. Infact I don't think the Walloon state can just force people out of their homes. The Flemish government has been fighting in court to get everyone evicted from the village of Doel for about 3 decades now. Even now that the village had been demolished for large part and 99% abandonned - a few still won't move out of their homes.


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## Pitchoune

Indeed there is no apetite anymore in Belgium to destroy houses for highways. The only solution is to go underground when they are houses that cannot be avoided.


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## Thermo

Flanders: 19 new 'trajectcontroles' (_trajectory speed control_ systems, is this the correct English translation?) will be installed in 2021. AWV (road agency) is systematically replacing the traditional speed cameras by these 'trajectcontroles'. 215 are already in place (though several are not working yet due to software problems at the federal police...)














__





Trajectcontroles | Wegen en verkeer







wegenenverkeer.be














Far more effective (and annoying) than the speed cameras I must say...


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## Penn's Woods

Thermo said:


> Flanders: 19 new 'trajectcontroles' (_trajectory speed control_ systems, is this the correct English translation?) will be installed in 2021. AWV (road agency) is systematically replacing the traditional speed cameras by these 'trajectcontroles'. 215 are already in place (though several are not working yet due to software problems at the federal police...)
> 
> 
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> 
> Trajectcontroles | Wegen en verkeer
> 
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> 
> 
> wegenenverkeer.be
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Far more effective (and annoying) than the speed cameras I must say...


Combined with new 30 zones in every village, if one believes De Standaard. Y’all are no fun.

(And we discussed English terminology for the trajectcontrole idea some time ago, maybe in Roadside Rest. Don’t remember what conclusion we came to....)


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## ChrisZwolle

Traffic safety is better than any point in automotive history, but governments across Europe are lowering speed limits and implementing ever more police state practices, to punish the citizens who make minor offenses (such as driving 80 km/h on a road that used to have a 90 km/h speed limit). Belgium is one of the worst, they are employing systematic police surveillance on motorists.


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## Thermo

Belgium has (had?) one of the highest number of traffic accident related deaths in Western Europe, so something had to be done. There will be no additional speed cameras, they're just being replaced by these trajectcontroles.

Just stick to the speed limit. And if you drive too fast, you'll get a ticket. Don't see what this has to do with "police state" practices. One of my family members died because of a 'fun' speeding driver. It's about saving lives.


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## pascalwithvespa95

Thermo said:


> Belgium has (had?) one of the highest number of traffic accident related deaths in Western Europe, so something had to be done. There will be no additional speed cameras, they're just being replaced by these trajectcontroles.
> 
> Just stick to the speed limit. And if you drive too fast, you'll get a ticket. Don't see what this has to do with "police state" practices. One of my family members died because of a 'fun' speeding driver. It's about saving lives.


Exactly. Speed limits have a reason and therefore need to be enforced. I don´t care how


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## MichiH

We can talk about whether any specific speed limit makes sense. However, when there is a speed limit, it must be enforced. If it is not enforced, the speed limit is useless.


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## ChrisZwolle

Speed enforcement today is not about saving lives, but revenue maximation. The overwhelming majority of speeding fines are issued for minor offenses (typically up to 10 km/h over the speed limit). That has nothing to do with traffic safety. It is a police state in a sense that the police is increasingly tracking your movements everywhere, just waiting to give you a speeding ticket for some unimportant offense. It's not proportional anymore. Especially with all the lowered speed limits.

The one-sided focus on speed enforcement is actually a reason why traffic deaths have not declined much over the past decade. Because it's not the cause of those accidents. Sweden has lowered speed limits across the country, set up thousands of new speed cameras but deaths have not gone done much more.

If politicians were serious about traffic safety and speed enforcement, they would introduce speed limits that fit the road configuration and function, or increase the tolerance to 10 or 15 km/h. But they don't want to give up 90% of the speeding fine revenue.


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## Penn's Woods

ChrisZwolle said:


> Speed enforcement today is not about saving lives, but revenue maximation. The overwhelming majority of speeding fines are issued for minor offenses (typically up to 10 km/h over the speed limit). That has nothing to do with traffic safety. It is a police state in a sense that the police is increasingly tracking your movements everywhere, just waiting to give you a speeding ticket for some unimportant offense. It's not proportional anymore. Especially with all the lowered speed limits.
> 
> The one-sided focus on speed enforcement is actually a reason why traffic deaths have not declined much over the past decade. Because it's not the cause of those accidents. Sweden has lowered speed limits across the country, set up thousands of new speed cameras but deaths have not gone done much more.
> 
> If politicians were serious about traffic safety and speed enforcement, they would introduce speed limits that fit the road configuration and function, or increase the tolerance to 10 or 15 km/h. But they don't want to give up 90% of the speeding fine revenue.


I’m not as cynical as you, but there’s sometimes a difference between “doing something” and doing a thing that will actually help.
And @Thermo, that “fun” was tongue-in-cheek. Sorry for your loss and I hope I didn’t offend. I’m not a speed freak, but having learned to drive during the period when no speed limit in the U.S. was higher than 88 km/h, I’m cynical about them. I can’t believe village centers are unsafe at 50, so long as people actually pay attention to what they’re doing.

I pass this spot regularly. Most recently yesterday. An abrupt lowering to 25 MPH (40 km/h) from 40/65. I suppose it’s technically an extremely small built-up area, but I’ve never once seen a pedestrian.

P.S.: That’s also the most traffic I’ve ever seen there. Must be rush hour.

















Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




goo.gl


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## ChrisZwolle

Most crashes occur at intersections, due to priority rules not being followed or judgment errors. Speed is always a factor in the outcome of any type of crash. However the worst speed offenders often involve other problems such as driving under influence (drugs, alcohol, nitrous oxigen), which speed cameras or average speed checks don't solve. 

Most speed enforcement is on the safest roads. In the Netherlands they've been installing average speed checks on roads with few crashes, in one case even on a road with not a single crash in 5 years. They rarely enforce speed in school zones or dangerous rural roads, instead they're setting up on motorways or wide open roads.


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## mgk920

Penn's Woods said:


> I’m not as cynical as you, but there’s sometimes a difference between “doing something” and doing a thing that will actually help.
> And @Thermo, that “fun” was tongue-in-cheek. Sorry for your loss and I hope I didn’t offend. I’m not a speed freak, but having learned to drive during the period when no speed limit in the U.S. was higher than 88 km/h, I’m cynical about them. I can’t believe village centers are unsafe at 50, so long as people actually pay attention to what they’re doing.
> 
> I pass this spot regularly. Most recently yesterday. An abrupt lowering to 25 MPH (40 km/h) from 40/65. I suppose it’s technically an extremely small built-up area, but I’ve never once seen a pedestrian.
> 
> P.S.: That’s also the most traffic I’ve ever seen there. Must be rush hour.
> View attachment 912949
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goo.gl


And just below that thing, someone places a sign that says "HIGH SCORE (xx)".

Mike


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## Spookvlieger

This type of roundbout has a much higher traffic flow than a T-intersection because it allows better timing of traffic lights to ensure more free flowing traffic. That's in theory if they've timed the traffic light perfectly.
Although I would prefer the slip lanes to be free flowing entirely with an acceleration lane wich doesn't seem to be the case judging from the drawing.

I think if they really wanted to they could have fitted an urban T-interchange with narrow curves like a small T-bone or combination T-bone/roundabout.


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## Ingenioren

How about an Arc-De-Triomphe style chaos instead ?


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## g.spinoza

Spookvlieger said:


> This type of roundbout has a much higher traffic flow than a T-intersection because it allows better timing of traffic lights to ensure more free flowing traffic. That's in theory if they've timed the traffic light perfectly.
> Although I would prefer the slip lanes to be free flowing entirely with an acceleration lane wich doesn't seem to be the case judging from the drawing.
> 
> I think if they really wanted to they could have fitted an urban T-interchange with narrow curves like a small T-bone or combination T-bone/roundabout.


It seems to me that the higher throughput is due to the increased number of lanes that reach the intersection, more than the intersection itself. You can draw whatever intersection you like, but if you're going to put traffic lights on it, I'm not sure you are goint to improve that much.
But I'm no expert.


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## Spookvlieger

Compaired to the original intersection there are indeed more lanes. However this type of roundabout increases left turning traffic flow wich is what they are going for in this case. Generally on turbo roundabouts with traffic lights, the traffic lights are installed because of high traffic intensity, the flow is better with controlled acces than without. 

I'm also not an expert but this Polish study is a good read, it seems to list the downsides and the improvements and a short section that signalised turbo roundabouts do have better capacity than other signalised roundabouts and defenately higher capacity than regular 2 or 3 lane roundabouts. 
ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books.

Regular roundabouts perform terrible with intensive traffic. I know several two lane roundabouts in my area that where replaced by intersections with turning lanes because of traffic jams, considering they used to be regular intersections with turning lanes in the 80's and replaced in the 90's on to be replaced with what they used to be in the 2010's...


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## Bender

Ingenioren said:


> How about an Arc-De-Triomphe style chaos instead ?


Survival of the fittest


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## Spookvlieger

R1






A1 Between Antwerp and Brussels






A27






R8






Dutch A2 into Belgian A25


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## ChrisZwolle

Belgium is the only country in Europe where there is no national default speed limit per road type. Flanders lowered the default rural speed limit to 70 km/h in 2017. Brussels lowered the default urban speed limit to 30 km/h in 2021.

The default limits are as follows;

Vlaanderen / Flanders:

city limits: 50 km/h
rural: 70 km/h
motorway: 120 km/h

Wallonie / Wallonia:

city limits: 50 km/h
rural: 90 km/h
motorway: 120 km/h

Brussels:

city limits: 30 km/h
rural: 70 km/h
motorway: 120 km/h

Higher or lower speed limits than the default speed limit are signed, otherwise the default speed limit applies.






Snelheidsbeperkingen


Wegwijs in het Belgisch verkeersreglement




wegcode.be


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## Spookvlieger

Dual carriageway with median, either grass or crash barriers= 120km/h unless signed differently. I think motorway is confusing terminolgy to use in the case of Belgium.


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## panda80

Drove during the Easter weekend on a very interesting road in Belgium, the B258. Having a german road indicative, the road goes through belgian territory, with no connection to the belgian road network. There is one house along this strip of road, which has a Belgian post code, but is connected to the German telephone network (Fringshaus). Filmed the whole road between Aachen and Monschau, the belgian section is between 25:52 and 27:42. Is the road maintaned also by Germany?


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## MichiH

panda80 said:


> Is the road maintaned also by Germany?


It was maintain by German road authorities 10 years ago - and I guess that it still is - but Belgium collects "tolls" = speed cameras checks 









Nordeifel: Belgien blitzt, Deutschland zahlt


Dass die belgische Polizei sich mit der Radarpistole zwischen Konzen und Fringshaus positioniert, erhitzt die Eifeler Gemüter.




www.aachener-zeitung.de





International division of labor


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## panda80

I also don't know the quarantine rules, but I suppose they don't apply for this stretch. Avoided it on the way to Aachen, but after seeing there is no connection from it to the belgian road network, took it for the day-trip to Monschau.


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## DannyBoy85

panda80 said:


> Drove during the Easter weekend on a very interesting road in Belgium, the B258. Having a german road indicative, the road goes through belgian territory, with no connection to the belgian road network. There is one house along this strip of road, which has a Belgian post code, but is connected to the German telephone network (Fringshaus). Filmed the whole road between Aachen and Monschau, the belgian section is between 25:52 and 27:42. Is the road maintaned also by Germany?












I've driven this road last summer.

The road is indeed in Belgium and Belgian rules of road apply (90 km/h).

However it is maintained by the Germans since there a no other Belgian public roads connected (exception to private forest roads).

It caused two problems in the past:


When an accident occured (who had the responsability to take the call)
When a German learning driver with an "L" drove on this road from Kaltherherberg and was not allowed to drive abroad on a Belgian road


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## Syrious

That is one of the best roads in Belgium and THE best in Wallonia. Thank you Germany


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## Spookvlieger

Are you sure it's not the best stretch of Road in the world?


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## DannyBoy85

Spookvlieger said:


> Are you sure it's not the best stretch of Road in the world?


I'd say the best in the universe.


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## Pitchoune

I don't understand why people keep saying that roads in Belgium and Wallonia in particular are bad. The situation has improved a lot the last 10 years. Most highways in Wallonia are now OK.


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## ChrisZwolle

I agree, the motorways are mostly in good condition. Flanders has improved as well since the mid 2000s. A lot of notorious stretches have been improved over the past 5 years. Even the 'Highway to Hell' (N67) has been improved. And E42 is now a continuous six lane motorway between Charleroi and Liège.


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## ChrisZwolle

A large-scale rehabilitation of the Huccorgne Bridge of E42 near Huy has been announced.

This bridge is 547 meters long and 60 meters high. The main bridge is a concrete box girder bridge, the approach spans are beam bridges. The bridge was built between 1968 and 1971.

The approach spans will be demolished with the exceptions of the columns. The beams and superstructure will be entirely replaced.

The main span will get a reinforcement with external prestressing cables.

Construction is scheduled between August 2021 and July 2023 and consists of three major phases. There will be 2 lanes each way on one bridge side during construction, with a 50 km/h speed limit.The rehabilitation cost is € 23 million.









E42/A15 – Wanze : une spectaculaire réhabilitation bientôt en cours au viaduc de Huccorgne | Sofico







sofico.org


----------



## panda80

Viaduc Charlemagne on N97 near Dinant is the heighest bridge in Belgium, at 80m over Meuse river. Crossed it mid-June during a relatively extensive roadtrip through Belgium, on the way from Dinant to Mons. The bridge is 2+2, but one lane is closed because of roadworks. However I saw no workers there, do you happen to know if the bridge has one lane closed because of structural problems (to reduce weight on it), or are they really doing some repairs there? Filmed the whole drive on N97 and N40 between Dinant and Mons, found the road through The Ardennes interesting and pictuoresque:


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## Spookvlieger

I don't know anything about that Road N97 or the works on the viaduct but from the images of your video it seems it needs reconstruction over it's entire lenght. Those are a lot of potholes and patched up surfaces... I drove it many years ago and it was much better and the bridge had two lanes open.


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## Pitchoune

More information here: la-circulation-du-viaduc-charlemagne-concentree-sur-une-seule-voie-de-circulation - Ville de Dinant
The viaduc is being renovated since February 2021 and it will last until August 2022.


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## ChrisZwolle

The N5 / E420 motorway upgrade in Couvin has been delayed. The railway underpass needs its final cladding, which will be implemented after the summer vacation. So there is still a 2+0 system with a 50 km/h speed limit through there.

Regardless, this route has been picked up by GPS and Google Maps, there were far more Dutch motorists on this road and into France than I've ever seen before. I've traveled through here quite a few times over the years. It's now the fastest and shortest route from western Netherlands and Antwerp / Brussels to many locations in France, including down to Reims, Dijon, Lyon, etc. Even while not all of N5 south of Charleroi is yet a four lane expressway.


E420 N5 Couvin 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


E420 N5 Couvin 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


E420 N5 Couvin 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


E420 N5 Couvin 05 by European Roads, on Flickr


E420 N5 Couvin 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


E420 N5 Couvin 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

Driving through Antwerp without a massive traffic jam? It's possible on a Sunday morning:


R1 Antwerpen 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


R1 Antwerpen 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


R1 Antwerpen 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


R1 Antwerpen 06 by European Roads, on Flickr


R1 Antwerpen 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


R1 Antwerpen 09 by European Roads, on Flickr


R1 Antwerpen 12 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Thermo

Pretty extensive video about the 'big link' mobility/environmental project in Antwerp, the biggest infrastructural project in the city ever. Some interesting facts about the history and concept of the 'oosterweel' / ringland project with some new images:


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently this is N61 in Pepinster.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415624534095499272


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## ChrisZwolle

E25 through Liège has totally flooded. There are several tunnels in the Meuse and Ourthe River areas.


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## DannyBoy85

Due to recent tragic events in the region of Liège (floodings), the abandonned A601 is now being temporary used as a dump place for the content of sinistred houses during the floodings.

See the picture for yourself.










SOURCE : https://www.rtl.be/info/video/786381.aspx


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## mgk920

DannyBoy85 said:


> Due to recent tragic events in the region of Liège (floodings), the abandonned A601 is now being temporary used as a dump place for the content of sinistred houses during the floodings.
> 
> See the picture for yourself.
> 
> View attachment 1795122
> 
> 
> SOURCE : https://www.rtl.be/info/video/786381.aspx


Interesting.

Why was this road abandoned?

Mike


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## Spookvlieger

mgk920 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Why was this road abandoned?
> 
> Mike


No one really knows. The A601 connector surface pavement was in apalling condition before it closed to the point it had only one lane open for traffic. Several bridges also show spalling, which can't be good. The Road also had low traffic volumes. The Walloon government, instead of repearing the Road simply stated they won't be allocating the funds to restore it and have it permanently closed. Large sections of the road have since been overgrown with weeds in the pavement cracks...


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## Pitchoune

They should destroy the road and allow the successfull Hauts Sarts business park to expand.


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## ChrisZwolle

Reopening A601 was actually part of the 2020-2026 mobility plan of Wallonia.


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## DannyBoy85

ChrisZwolle said:


> Reopening A601 was actually part of the 2020-2026 mobility plan of Wallonia.


It changes all the time, you can never know if it will reopen or not.


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## ChrisZwolle

Some eye-watering statistics about the floods in Eastern Belgium;


50,000 vehicles destroyed
3 million m³ of waste
1.5 million tons of waste (normally all of Wallonia produces 1.9 million tons of waste per year).









Inondations: près de 50.000 véhicules hors d’usage et 1,5 million de tonnes de déchets


Le groupe Comet, actif dans plusieurs filières du traitement de déchets, a estimé l’impact des inondations.




www.lesoir.be





Helicopters were brought in to remove cars from inaccesible areas:

















Inondations: les images impressionnantes des hélicoptères évacuant des dizaines de voitures inaccessibles


90 épaves de voitures sont actuellement coincées dans des endroits inaccessibles. Deux hélicoptères de l’armée sont occupés à les hélitreuiller, rapporte Sudinfo.




www.lesoir.be


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## DannyBoy85

In less than one week, the whole A601 has already been filed with waste from last week's floodings.


















L’autoroute A601 à Herstal saturée de déchets en seulement 72 heures!


L’autoroute A601 abandonnée n’aura finalement été qu’une solution de courte durée où stocker la quantité astronomique de déchets provenant des zones sinistrées. En 72h à peine, le site, qui devait pallier la saturation des centres de tri « classiques », est arrivé à saturation. Dix kilomètres de...




lameuse.sudinfo.be


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## ChrisZwolle

The Flemish government has announced to award a € 606 million contract to a consortium 'BRAVO-4' to eliminate 14 intersections on R4 between Gent and Zelzate. R4 is a beltway that loops around the heavily industrialized canal zone between Gent and Zelzate. The project consists of R4 west and east, both are already four lane expressways with some interchanges but also numerous intersections and traffic lights.

Practically all traffic lights will be replaced by viaducts or interchanges. Most notable are the E34/R4 interchange on the east side of Zelzate, which provides access to the Netherlands, and the complex R4 / N456 interchange in Wondelgem, where R4 will be constructed in a tunnel.

Construction will start in late 2022 and be completed in 2028. It's one of the largest road projects in Flanders this decade, after the Antwerpen Ring Road.

Press release: Aannemer voor ombouw R4 West en Oost gekend — R4WO


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## Pitchoune

Ideally they should also close the ring a bit closer to the city as well, between Evergem and Oostakker for instance.


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## Puinkabouter

That's an idea that pops up every once in a while, titled "Sifferverbinding", as it would have to cross the "Alfons Siffer" dock in the port, and the canal too. It's short but probably quite expensive. The current infrastructure was built with that as a future link in mind: they kept an open space in the middle of the road for a future tunnel entrance. An alternative that has been proposed in the past but also hasn't made it so far is a cross-canal link about halfway between Zelzate and Ghent, which would be cheaper to build, but less conveniently located. I don't think it will be built in the next few decades though, unless the port would suddenly go through an unexpected boom.

I though I heard that the tunnel of the E34 underneath the canal will have to be replaced too at some point in the recent future. They're building a huge new lock in Terneuzen to allow bigger ships to enter the port, but the tunnel is less deep than that lock. Not sure if it's true though.


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## ChrisZwolle

Most of the center of Pepinster will be demolished. This is a small town where most houses are built between N61 and the Vesdre River. 

The Vesdre River violently overflowed, with N61 becoming a new channel for the river, ruining most houses along it.

Source in Dutch: Groot deel centrum Pepinster wordt afgebroken na zware overstromingen: burgemeester beveelt afbraak van 50-tal woningen

View of Pepinster from N61:


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## sven_engelen

*E42 Battice - St. Vith*
The Belgian A27 (E42) between Battice and St. Vith is the most beautiful highway in Belgium. With many valley bridges through the hills of the Ardennes it is a really mesmerizing highway with it's most beautiful point at viaduc de Polleur. (2:59 in my video). Enjoy the ride!


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## Pitchoune

ChrisZwolle said:


> The N5 / E420 motorway upgrade in Couvin has been delayed. The railway underpass needs its final cladding, which will be implemented after the summer vacation. So there is still a 2+0 system with a 50 km/h speed limit through there.
> 
> Regardless, this route has been picked up by GPS and Google Maps, there were far more Dutch motorists on this road and into France than I've ever seen before. I've traveled through here quite a few times over the years. It's now the fastest and shortest route from western Netherlands and Antwerp / Brussels to many locations in France, including down to Reims, Dijon, Lyon, etc. Even while not all of N5 south of Charleroi is yet a four lane expressway.


Indeed, I see much much more Dutch cars between Nivelles and Charleroi on the A54 since a few months. Something like 5 to 10 times more than before. That's a good thing because more traffic will actually speed up the completion of the highway between Charleroi and Somzée (the so-called Trident project). That project seems to be in a stalemate at the moment. I guess the N5 between Loverval and Somzée must be much busier now and if confirmed, then the local population will not be happy.


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## ChrisZwolle

E25 in Liège will likely not reopen fully until mid-October. 

The Cointe Tunnel has reopened for local traffic in late July, but the Kinkempois Tunnel has seen severe damage to its technical equipment, it was flooded to the roof. Repairs will take several months.



https://www.rtbf.be/info/regions/liege/detail_le-tunnel-sous-cointe-liaison-e25-e40-sera-rouverte-mi-octobre?id=10825838



Location of the Kinkempois Tunnel: OpenStreetMap


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## Ady

ChrisZwolle said:


> Location of the Kinkempois Tunnel


For a second I read "Kinepolis Tunnel" there


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## ChrisZwolle

Temporary directional signage on the E25/E411 interchange (Échangeur de Neufchâteau). E25 through Liège is closed, officially only to trucks but they want through traffic to use E411 / E42.


Échangeur de Neufchâteau by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Vignole

What happens when it gets dark? Are these signals reflective?


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## ChrisZwolle

I wondered about that as well. I haven't driven there at night. There is high mast lighting though. The sign is probably internally lit.


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## ChrisZwolle

I took some photos of E19 between Antwerp and Brussels. The signage is kind of nostalgic.


E19 Antwerpen - Brussel 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


E19 Antwerpen - Brussel 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


E19 Antwerpen - Brussel 04 by European Roads, on Flickr


E19 Antwerpen - Brussel 06 by European Roads, on Flickr

Notice that these signs display Walloon cities with their Dutch exonyms, which can be confusing for foreign drivers. Namen = Namur. Luik = Liège, Bergen = Mons. Charleroi is the only major Walloon city which does not have an exonym in Dutch. 

E19 Antwerpen - Brussel 07 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## Glodenox

ChrisZwolle said:


> Notice that these signs display Walloon cities with their Dutch exonyms, which can be confusing for foreign drivers. Namen = Namur. Luik = Liège, Bergen = Mons. Charleroi is the only major Walloon city which does not have an exonym in Dutch.


Sadly enough, this is something that continues to take place in the whole country. Weirdly enough they usually don't do this for cities outside of Belgium.
Signs in Wallonia generally also only mention Anvers (= Antwerpen), Courtrai (= Kortrijk), Louvain (= Leuven). I'm not quite sure what both regions are trying to achieve this way other than confusing people. Then again, most people will use a navigation device if they drive somewhere they haven't been yet, at which point the text on the signs doesn't really matter that much any more.


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## Puinkabouter

The least they could to is have the city's proper names between brackets. This is done for Rijsel (Lille) and Parijs (Paris) on the E17 in Kortrijk, but not for Doornik (Tournai) or Moeskroen (Mouscron). Also, across the border in France, signage around Lille does provide a bracketed translation for Gand (Gent) but not for Bruxelles (Brussels). Stuff like this would be very triggering in Belgium, hence the all-or-nothing attitude - and they chose nothing.

Linguistic pettiness at its finest.


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## 54°26′S 3°24′E

Maybe they should try to learn a bit from e.g. Finland, at least if Wallonia and Flanders have the motivation to work together as a nation....



https://www.mattigronroos.fi/w/index.php/Introduction_to_Roads_in_Finland#Language


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## jdb.2

What I understand is that official city or municipality names are determined by Belgian law.
Both Dutch and French names are equal official names, so according to law Luik and Liège, or Antwerpen and Anvers are both equal.
In Flanders they sign the official Dutch names, and Wallonia the French. But it's not a pragmatic approach to say the least.

Foreign city names are not subject to this law, so there is more "freedom" to sign the native names.


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## ChrisZwolle

Back in the day there were signs with 'Aix-la-Chapelle'. That is the German city of Aachen. 

Lille is also a long-standing feud on Dutch Wikipedia. In the Netherlands this city is chiefly known by its French name. But in Flanders, the exonym 'Rijsel' is more common. So they can't agree on which title to use.

There are some bilingual signs on R0 around Brussels. However these appear and disappear randomly, following the invisible borders of municipalities with language facilities.


foto 186 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The E34 Waaslandhaven-Oost interchange in the Port of Antwerp has been completed on 19 September. This is the first section of the Oosterweel megaproject to be completed. The former semi-interchange is now a full interchange.

Waaslandhaven (Port of Waasland) is an area within the larger Port of Antwerp which has several chemical companies. The interchange is just west of where the future tunnel under de Schelde River will be constructed.

Location: OpenStreetMap


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## ChrisZwolle

Apparently there are now plans to rehabilitate the final 0.5 km of E25 between Liège and the border with the Netherlands.

This is administratively a complex section of E25, where it changes administration 3 times in 500 meters. There is a tiny sliver of E25 which runs through Flanders. This portion has old concrete which is in poor condition.


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## ChrisZwolle

The final 1 kilometer of the E420 / N5 Couvin motorway bypass has been completed today, it's now open with 2x2 lanes through the railway underpass at Frasnes-lez-Couvin. This means that the largest motorway project in Wallonia is now completed, with a four lane motorway from Couvin to the French border. Most of it opened in 2017 and 2019.









Contournement autoroutier de Couvin: 2X2 bandes disponibles dès ce vendredi soir dans la tranchée couverte de Frasnes-Lez-Couvin


L’Allée des Frênes ne sera pas immédiatement à nouveau accessible.




www.dhnet.be





Location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.0742&mlon=4.5109#map=15/50.0742/4.5109


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## verreme

Are there any serious plans to complete the motorway up to Charleroi?


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## Spookvlieger

I think it would be very hard to accomplish. First because it would cause a lot of forced expropriations and second because the only free route would be the completely deviatie from the original route and cut through forested area.


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## Ni3lS

ChrisZwolle said:


> Apparently there are now plans to rehabilitate the final 0.5 km of E25 between Liège and the border with the Netherlands.
> 
> This is administratively a complex section of E25, where it changes administration 3 times in 500 meters. There is a tiny sliver of E25 which runs through Flanders. This portion has old concrete which is in poor condition.


Interesting, I always wondered why this short stretch of road is in such poor condition. I actually drove this stretch again 10 days ago.


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## verreme

Spookvlieger said:


> I think it would be very hard to accomplish. First because it would cause a lot of forced expropriations and second because the only free route would be the completely deviatie from the original route and cut through forested area.


I see. Even if this route is shorter for long-haul traffic, crossing an urban area on a long roadtrip is most inconvenient. And it can even be dangerous if there's driver fatigue from hours of driving.


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## Spookvlieger

Sure but you need to have political will and money to build new roads through allready privately owned land. Neither is present.


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## ChrisZwolle

Wallonia has funding allocated for the upgrade of the existing four lane N5 to motorway standards. However this does not include the segment from Somzée to Charleroi.


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## MichiH

ChrisZwolle said:


> I often use cruise control in construction zones if traffic allows it. It's a way to maintain an unnatural low speed limit.


I generally use the cruise control nowadays especially on crowded roads because I can simply follow the car in front and don't have to care about the speed anymore. It is way safer than not using cruise control, especially in case of unexpected full braking of the car in front, e.g. at or in construction sites. My middle-sized car has three types of cruise control: Standard, adaptive and intelligent adaptive. I use the adapted cruise control because the speed sign recognition is crap. The system is still not perfect, e.g. does not foresee cars slowing down to far ahead (e.g. when a truck overtakes another truck, the system keeps the distance till the truck is in the desired distance and only then reduces my speed rapidly) or does not react preventive when the car in front enables the turn signal/indicator.


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## Pitchoune

In Wallonia they have the No GPS board, it is not an interdiction (impossible to enforce) but more a recommendation in order to avoid some traps and unusable roads.


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## ChrisZwolle

This is still a problem with navigation apps / devices.

I use Waze and while it generally works OK in the Netherlands, in France it quite often wants to send me on very narrow roads or tight turns. I usually ignore these instructions if the intersection doesn't have any directional signage.

I was using Google Maps in Annecy and it sent me through a residential neighborhood to cut between two major roads. It also instructed me to turn left on a road where it was prohibited (and physically impossible).

Of course, common sense goes a long way to avoid these kind of GPS traps, but traffic not familiar to an area is likely to follow it.


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## MattiG

ChrisZwolle said:


> This is still a problem with navigation apps / devices.
> 
> I use Waze and while it generally works OK in the Netherlands, in France it quite often wants to send me on very narrow roads or tight turns. I usually ignore these instructions if the intersection doesn't have any directional signage.
> 
> I was using Google Maps in Annecy and it sent me through a residential neighborhood to cut between two major roads. It also instructed me to turn left on a road where it was prohibited (and physically impossible).
> 
> Of course, common sense goes a long way to avoid these kind of GPS traps, but traffic not familiar to an area is likely to follow it.


However, the proper solution is to use decent navigators, instead of taking überstupid actions like banning GPS.

Tomtom for instance does pretty good job on routing. The iqrouting based on the real speed data quite automatically prevents from taking lousy routes. In addition, routing engines may consider other factors, too, like curvature, number of left turns, number of traffic light, road width, etc. Some of those factors depend on how good digital road map data is available in the country.


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## MattiG

MichiH said:


> I generally use the cruise control nowadays especially on crowded roads because I can simply follow the car in front and don't have to care about the speed anymore. It is way safer than not using cruise control, especially in case of unexpected full braking of the car in front, e.g. at or in construction sites. My middle-sized car has three types of cruise control: Standard, adaptive and intelligent adaptive. I use the adapted cruise control because the speed sign recognition is crap. The system is still not perfect, e.g. does not foresee cars slowing down to far ahead (e.g. when a truck overtakes another truck, the system keeps the distance till the truck is in the desired distance and only then reduces my speed rapidly) or does not react preventive when the car in front enables the turn signal/indicator.


The adaptive cruise control based on traffic sign pattern recognition is a dead end. It is an engineering dream, but too easy to tamper. Everyone can make practical jokes by showing something resembling a speed limit sign.

In the Finnish election system, every candidate has a number. Usually, this number is put in a circle in ads. Then, the ads are put visible to drivers. Think about what happens if the cruise control detects the ad of the former prime minister on a street in an urban area:


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## DannyBoy85

MattiG said:


> The adaptive cruise control based on traffic sign pattern recognition is a dead end. It is an engineering dream, but too easy to tamper. Everyone can make practical jokes by showing something resembling a speed limit sign.
> 
> In the Finnish election system, every candidate has a number. Usually, this number is put in a circle in ads. Then, the ads are put visible to drivers. Think about what happens if the cruise control detects the ad of the former prime minister on a street in an urban area:
> 
> View attachment 3895156


Something similar happened to me this summer. Some roads on the right side were limited to 30 km/h and the car detected it while remaining on the main roads at 80 km/h. The car was bipping loudly to slow down while it wasn't necessary at all. Green anticar-ologists must have been laughing at me.


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## MichiH

MattiG said:


> The adaptive cruise control based on traffic sign pattern recognition is a dead end. It is an engineering dream, but too easy to tamper. Everyone can make practical jokes by showing something resembling a speed limit sign.
> 
> In the Finnish election system, every candidate has a number. Usually, this number is put in a circle in ads. Then, the ads are put visible to drivers. Think about what happens if the cruise control detects the ad of the former prime minister on a street in an urban area:
> 
> View attachment 3895156


Exactly! That's why sign recognition will never work! My car often shows me a speed limit of 40km/h from motorway exit ramps or anything from the back a truck.

The (remote) solution would be a ban of road signs and sending the speed limit - and other advices - directly from a road authority server to the car. Or a total ban of speed limits and a system where the car is automatically detecting the right behavior depending on its own skills, reports from other cars which used the road before, and condition sensors. Well, very remote future....


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## Spookvlieger

Belgium has these ice warning signs at each bridge (even the smallest) on main routes. It applies when when wet. So whenever it reaches below 6°C and it rains my car keeps flagging me for "dangerous road situation" and even if the last bridge was 20km ago it still keeps displaying the message and I have no way to turn it off (BMW). It's annoying as **** to have that the whole winter.


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## jdb.2

MichiH said:


> Exactly! That's why sign recognition will never work! My car often shows me a speed limit of 40km/h from motorway exit ramps or anything from the back a truck.
> 
> The (remote) solution would be a ban of road signs and sending the speed limit - and other advices - directly from a road authority server to the car. Or a total ban of speed limits and a system where the car is automatically detecting the right behavior depending on its own skills, reports from other cars which used the road before, and condition sensors. Well, very remote future....


My car's traffic sign limit recognition is able to recognize conditional speed limits. There are some symbols it can detect, like snow otherwise it shows a question mark (or something) indicating it couldn't interpret the lower sign.
These system could be made more intelligent, if the posted limit is higher than the gps data; it should prioritize the gps.
But then again, gps data could be outdated, like when Flanders switched from 90 to 70 kmh as a general speed limit.

On the A12 you have this situation.
Google Maps
Left is 120 km/h (motorway regulations), right is 50 km/h, but traffic sign recognition picks up the motorway sign en shows 120 km/h..


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## MattiG

jdb.2 said:


> My car's traffic sign limit recognition is able to recognize conditional speed limits. There are some symbols it can detect, like snow otherwise it shows a question mark (or something) indicating it couldn't interpret the lower sign.
> These system could be made more intelligent, if the posted limit is higher than the gps data; it should prioritize the gps.
> But then again, gps data could be outdated, like when Flanders switched from 90 to 70 kmh as a general speed limit.
> 
> On the A12 you have this situation.
> Google Maps
> Left is 120 km/h (motorway regulations), right is 50 km/h, but traffic sign recognition picks up the motorway sign en shows 120 km/h..


There is a big difference between a machine and a human being: With the intuition, a human being can make and educated guess if the information is true or false. A world if full of symbols having digits in a circle. Making a machine to interpret those signals correctly might be a mission impossible.

In addition, it is a very important legal question who is the guilty one if the car makes a stupid decision. Even if the open engineering questions were resolved tomorrow, there will be a huge pile of legal questions to agree by countries. 

There are a lot of standardization activities ongoing on this area, with both technical and legal focus. It is a very long range planning job, targeting year 2040 or so. The basic problem for distributing the information for autonomous vehicles is how the data can be immune to tampering and how quickly it can be delivered to the endpoints. For speed limits, the acceptable delay to deliver updated information to cars shall be seconds instead of days, because violating the limits usually has legal and monetary consequences. The navigator-contained data is more or less offline, and not very suitable for variable signs changing frequently not for those temporary ones at construction sites.


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## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> The adaptive cruise control based on traffic sign pattern recognition is a dead end. It is an engineering dream, but too easy to tamper. Everyone can make practical jokes by showing something resembling a speed limit sign.
> 
> In the Finnish election system, every candidate has a number. Usually, this number is put in a circle in ads. Then, the ads are put visible to drivers. Think about what happens if the cruise control detects the ad of the former prime minister on a street in an urban area:
> 
> View attachment 3895156


You just need to ban this - quite ridiculous - system for election candidates. Or mandate that the numbers are written in a way that sign recognition system do not get confused.
My car has the sign recognition system and it works amazingly well. It recognises only black numbers in white signs with red border, and ignores them if there is an explanatory panel (like "only with rain" or "only for trucks").


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## ChrisZwolle

MattiG said:


> In addition, it is a very important legal question who is the guilty one if the car makes a stupid decision. Even if the open engineering questions were resolved tomorrow, there will be a huge pile of legal questions to agree by countries.


I've read on the news yesterday that the EU wants to make the producers of AI liable for the action it takes. 

That sounds like an instant killer of autonomous vehicles. Which AI producer can afford to be liable for every vehicle crash in Europe?


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## Bastiaan85

Firstly they would only be liable for crashes where the AI would be at fault, not every crash obviously. 9 out of 10 crashes are caused by distracted drivers looking on their phone, falling asleep, speeding ("lost control of the wheel"), overlooking oncoming traffic (either by not looking or from some visual impairment), driving with a poorly maintained vehicle, under the influence and so on.

And secondly this liability would still be handled by the producer's insurance, not themselves (as insurance is mandatory). So the question is rather "would be it be possible for them to get insurance for their systems?" And that, to me, would rely on not just it being liable or not, but rather if there's a profit to be made when on average the insurer pays out less in damages than it makes from its income. I wouldn't see a real reason why insurance companies wouldn't rather rely on AI than on mindless or otherwise impaired hοmο sapiens drivers if they can make more profit from it.

This basically flows back to the main principle that AI driving doesn't need to be flawless, it has to be less flawed than what we currently have.


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## MattiG

E


g.spinoza said:


> You just need to ban this - quite ridiculous - system for election candidates. Or mandate that the numbers are written in a way that sign recognition system do not get confused.
> My car has the sign recognition system and it works amazingly well. It recognises only black numbers in white signs with red border, and ignores them if there is an explanatory panel (like "only with rain" or "only for trucks").


And ban every symbol having a number to inside a circle, including those stickers in heavy vehicles showing the max speed. Well, well.


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## g.spinoza

MattiG said:


> And ban every symbol having a number to inside a circle, including those stickers in heavy vehicles showing the max speed. Well, well.


No. Current systems are already capable to distinguish. But at least, don't put misleading ad signs near the road: it's common sense even for humans.


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## ChrisZwolle

The new Antwerpen-West interchange is shaping up real nice.


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## ChrisZwolle

The first Diverging Diamond Interchange (DDI) in Belgium has been completed today. It's on the Waregem exit of E17.


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## ChrisZwolle

A video with drive-through and drone footage of the new DDI at Waregem:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580904753461985280


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## ChrisZwolle

Possibly the only sign with 'A8' on it.

A8 is the motorway number for E429, which is the signed number. A-numbers are regularly signed when the motorway is not an E-route, but when there is an E-route, the A-number is usually relegated to kilometer posts only.


E429 Halle - Tournai 20 by European Roads, on Flickr


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## ChrisZwolle

The E429 motorway is interrupted at Halle, the last few kilometers to R0 are a four lane road with traffic lights, numbered N203a.

There are plans to upgrade this to a proper motorway connection, with a DBFM contract (this was announced last year).


E429 Halle - Tournai 01 by European Roads, on Flickr


E429 Halle - Tournai 02 by European Roads, on Flickr


E429 Halle - Tournai 03 by European Roads, on Flickr


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