# PARIS | Bus, LRT, Tram



## Cosmin

*The ultimate Ile-de-France public transport map.* It's getting better by the week.:applause:


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## edubejar

Cosmin said:


> *The ultimate Ile-de-France public transport map.* It's getting better by the week.:applause:


Looks like a very good tool by the RATP. What I like is that they've included all RATP and SNCF-managed lines, including the entire Transilien, OrlyVal, Tram lines, the new CDGVAL, and even the new Voguéo.


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## Songoten2554

thats great a thread of the paris light rail system i really am interested in this.

so three lines are owned by RATP and the other by Translien why is that though?


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## Svartmetall

^^ Just to clarify, SNCF is the other company, I believe Translinien is their branding.


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## Minato ku

Transillien is just the name of the suburban train service of the SNCF in Paris metro area.
It is a branding like TGV, Corail or TER.

T4 is a old suburban train line that was converted in the Tram Train line.

T2 is also in an old suburban line (Moulineaux line), RATP transformed it in a tramway line.

The last day of the Moulineaux line in 1993 (see the third rail like most suburban line before the 1970's)


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## X38

Are the Paris trams 1- or 2-way?


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## Coccodrillo

^^ ???

They are double ended, like nearly all new tramway systems.



Minato ku said:


> The Parisian system is quite weird because no one of these lines are connected to an other light rail lines. :nuts:
> The situation will soon change with the extention of T2 at Porte de Versailles (T3)


And even then, the tracks of the two lines will not be connected because the T2 uses trams 2.40 m wide, the T3, 2.65 m wide.


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## Minato ku

^^ When I say connected it is not necessary sharing the same tracks but having a common station. (exactly like the metro or RER)


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## X38

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ ???
> 
> They are double ended, like nearly all new tramway systems.


OK, I meaned "have they 1 or 2 cabins?"
So, according to you, they have 2. ok.


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## Songoten2554

so T2 used to be a surburban line ohhh

which line of the light Rail lines end in la defense and do they go to Gare du nord?

also i see in that picture of the RER as well?


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## Minato ku

:?

Only the T2 go in la Defense but it stop at Issy Val de Seine.
There is not light rail line in Gare du Nord. 

Issy Val de Seine.








In Issy Val de Seine there is the RER C.

In La Defense, the T2 is in same place that the suburban lines, but don't confuse these suburban lines with the RER.


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## Hugues75

Well, on the video, the different trains or trams you can see :

- Z 6400 (one deck, blue with red and white doors) : Transilien L, which come from "gare St-Lazare" and go to "St-Nom-la-Bretèche" and "Versailles Rive Droite"

- Z 8800 (or Z 20500, it's hard to see) (double deck, blue and white with red doors) : Transilien U, La Défense - La Verrière : this is a line which never enter Paris itself. This line is a connexion between St-Lazare and Montparnasse suburbans lines.

- Citadis 302 (light rail, black and green outside, orange inside) : T2, the second light rail in the big Paris, between "La Défense" and "Issy-Val de Seine". As Minato said, it's an old suburban line extended to La Défense - it was first terminus at "Puteaux". Extension in progress to Porte de Versailles in the south and Pont de Bezons in the north.

Not on video, but at La Défense there's also the RER A.


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## MelbourneCity

Minato ku said:


> Actually no tram run at Place d'Italie
> In an other way there is a tram in Porte d'Italie (not so far at about 1.5 km of Place d'Italie following the Avenue d'Italie)
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> Porte de Choisy one stop after Porte d'Italie
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> A tram and the high-rises of Chinatown


Thats the one I was thinking of!
Got confused between locations!
Looked like a good tramway!


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## Coccodrillo

Minato ku said:


> In La Defense, the T2 is in same place that the suburban lines, but don't confuse these suburban lines with the RER.


Can Transilien lines be considered RER lines with a stub terminus inside Paris, instead of a tunnel passing the centre?


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## Substructure

Not exactly, in any case the Transilien would be closer to an LRT than a heavy rail system like the RER.


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## flierfy

Substructure said:


> Not exactly, in any case the Transilien would be closer to an LRT than a heavy rail system like the RER.


Trains that run on the tracks of the SNCF can never be a light rail. Transilien is exactly what Coccodrillo assumed, a rail network like RER whose lines unlike RER terminate in the grand termini of Paris


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## Cosmin

I love those Citadis trams! Parisians, are they running well and without major problems? What does RATP say?


Cosmin said:


> What a beauty...


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## Minato ku

No, no problem.
In one and half years, I only heard of two fatally accident with pedestrian (Of course the dead is the pedestrian) and two accidents (without injuries) with cars.
In these case it was not due at the tram but at the pedestrians and the cars that don't respect the traffic signal. :bash:

Nothing else, it work well. The only big problem with the T3 is its speed. 
With 18 km/h on average speed this tram is too slow.


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## Songoten2554

oh man are there going to be more trams you know i think london has a tram system now and they are expanding on it but Paris tram system is great i hope more lines are planned to sevre areas with not much buses or Rail transport you know.


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## Tiago Costa

Minato ku said:


> No, no problem.
> In one and half years, I only heard of two fatally accident with pedestrian (Of course the dead is the pedestrian) and two accidents (without injuries) with cars.
> In these case it was not due at the tram but at the pedestrians and the cars that don't respect the traffic signal. :bash:
> 
> Nothing else, it work well. The only big problem with the T3 is its speed.
> With 18 km/h on average speed this tram is too slow.


Minato ku, what are the average speeds of the other tram lines? How great is the exclusivity level of the lines? I saw in the photos that some tram lines runs at dedicated rail lines, but T3 runs in a very integrated environment. What is the maximum velocity for the T3 trams in the places showed in your photos (those quoted by MelbourneCity - very eye candy photos!)?


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## Substructure

dwdwone said:


> Is any portion of the Paris light rail lines underground?


Check out the map:
http://www.plandeparis.info/plans-de-metro/plan-de-metro-bonne-definition.gif

The only at-grade lines are those that begin with a "T".
The RER lines A, B, C, D and E run at-grade, but are all underground within the intra-Paris.

So, there are 16 subway lines, 5 express suburban lines, 3 light-rail lines, plus all the suburban heavy-rail lines.
Hope this helps.


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## JustinB

He is talking about the Tramlines.

The T2 terminus at La Defense is underground.

http://carto.metro.free.fr/documents/CartoTramParis.v1.2.png

www.carto.metro.free.fr

Great site for track maps.


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## Substructure

Oh my, I was dreaming of such a site with geographically exact maps. Thanks a bunch !


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## GENIUS LOCI

The guy who made these maps is a SSC forumer


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## gramercy

its nice to see the renessance of trams in france


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## salaverryo

gramercy said:


> its nice to see the renessance of trams in france


You mean the _renaissance_. The English word is _rebirth_.


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## Gil

salaverryo said:


> You mean the _renaissance_. The English word is _rebirth_.


Renaissance and rebirth, in English essentially mean the same thing. Renaissance though conveys a much larger or grander image than rebirth, which seem to convey starting over from scratch.


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## HenriqueBSB

Paris light rail line is very good. I wish Brasília light rail line gonna be very same.


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## JustinB

Substructure said:


> Oh my, I was dreaming of such a site with geographically exact maps. Thanks a bunch !


No problem. I love that site.


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## gramercy

salaverryo said:


> You mean the _renaissance_. The English word is _rebirth_.


magyarul meg reneszánsz hülye nyelvtannáci


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## Cosmin

Are you ok?:lol: Nem tudom magyarul. Write in English please.


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## Minato ku

Today the southern extention of the







(Issy Val de Seine to Porte de Versailles) opened.


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## juanico

Note that this extension allow transfer with T3 @ Porte de Versailles, the first such example in Paris light rail network.


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## rheintram

i'd love to see more about the new extension!


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## Minato ku

T6 
Chatillon Montrouge - Viroflay rive Droite (14 km and 21 stations)


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## Hugues75

Note that T6 will be a "tramway on tires".

I find this really strange, because there are many normal trams who already exist in Ile-de-France...


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## Falubaz

Hugues75 said:


> Note that T6 will be a "tramway on tires".
> 
> I find this really strange, because there are many normal trams who already exist in Ile-de-France...


u mean like a translohr?


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## Eurotram

Hugues75 said:


> Note that T6 will be a "tramway on tires".
> 
> I find this really strange, because there are many normal trams who already exist in Ile-de-France...


I wonder if people in Paris (responsible for choosing Translohr for T6 line) regret their choice?Because,as I read all informations about this mean of transport,there no new contracts for such systems and such vehicles;it's possible that transport authorities all over the world realized that isn't as excellent as they thought before (especially if they think about regio trams as complementation of city transport systems,like Paris' T4 line)


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## Hugues75

Falubaz said:


> u mean like a translohr?


Exactly.


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## historyworks

Is there any estimate of the journey time on the T6 end-to-end?


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## Hugues75

historyworks said:


> Is there any estimate of the journey time on the T6 end-to-end?


According to the RATP, the journey will take 40 minutes

http://extension-reseau.ratp.fr/tram-chatillon-viroflay/index.html


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## historyworks

^^
Thank you Hugues75


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## Minato ku

I think it could be a great idea to had the bus to this thread.








and various buses around.

Old RVI 312 (1988 - 1996)









TFS 


















Irisbus Citelis (2005-) Scania OmniCity


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## SmithDevelopment

cool, fresh air, i love it


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## juanico

You meant *TFS*...

Good idea to integrate buses to this topic. The OmniCity definitly has the best look of the network.


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## Minato ku

It is not a new idea, Cosmin asked me about a Paris bus thread a long time ago.
At the beginning (before the creation of this thread) I wanted two seperates threads but viewing the low activity of this one, it was a better idea to integrate buses with the tram.

Omnicity are good looking but have a bad reputation.









Renault Agora









Irisbus Agora L









Man NL 223 









Iribus Citelis


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## deasine

juanico said:


> You meant *TFS*...


Sorry, was that TFS, LRT, Tram? I'm confused :lol:


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## Minato ku

TSF Tramway Standard Français, (standard French tram).
It is the tram that build Alstom before the Citadis.


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## deasine

So do you guys want LRT or Tram changed to TFS? It really doesn't matter to me.


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## Minato ku

^^ No TSF is the name of a rolling stock (like Citadis for the tram or MF01 for the metro).
Only the T1 use them.

When juanico said "You meant TSF...", it is because I wrote TFS instead of TSF in the previous message.


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## deasine

Oh my god. This is awkward. I'm calling it a day off now -__-"


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## marciomaco

What is the code of colors that are used on bus routes' numbers?


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## dale88

Minato ku said:


> ^^ No TSF is the name of a rolling stock (like Citadis for the tram or MF01 for the metro).
> Only the T1 use them.
> 
> When juanico said "You meant TSF...", it is because I wrote TFS instead of TSF in the previous message.


Wrong, TFS stands for Tramway Français Standard (French Standard Tramway in english)as you said but it is also the name of a rolling stock and not TSF.


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## Minato ku

^^ I always mix the both... :lol:

marciomarco, there are so many line that I don't know anything about a specific code of colors.


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## marciomaco

I'll give you an example from my city: Oporto

We have 6 colors:

blue for the city center
yellow for Matosinhos zone
green for Maia zone
red for Ermesinde and Valongo zone
purple for Gondomar zone
and orange for Gaia

For sure Paris has one color code


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## Minato ku

No there are color by lines but not by destination. 
You will find lines of red, orange, bleu, red, brown, yellow ect... color that go in the center or that go anywhere else.

Where there is a code is for the line the number in inner Paris 
The first number is for a central district

2X : Gare Saint-Lazare 
3X : Gare de l'Est 
4X : Gare du Nord
5X : République area
6X : Gare de Lyon / Gare d'Austerlitz area
7X : Hôtel de Ville / Châtelet area
8X : Left bank, around Luxembourg
9X : Gare Montparnasse

The second number is for a more peripheral areas of inner Paris.
X2 : South-west (16th arrondissement)
X3 : West (17th arrondissement)
X4 : North-west (17th arrondissement)
X5 : North and Nord-east (18th arrondissement and 19th arrondissement)
X6 : East (20th arrondissement and 12th arrondissement)
X7 : South East (13th arrondissement)
X8 : South (14th arrondissement)
X9 : South-west (15th arrondissement)

By exemple the line 28 
Gare Saint Lazare (2) to Porte d'Orleans in the south (8)

Anyway this is not anymore really true as this code is very old and many lines have seen their route modified.

By exemple the line 66 do Clichy-la-Garenne (northwestern inner suburbs) to Opéra.
If we read the code the first (6) would be for the area around Gare de Lyon / Gare d'Austerlitz and the second (6) for the East of inner Paris.
But this line does not serve any of the these areas.

The lines with three digit numbers serve mostly the suburbs.


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## Minato ku

Some data about RATP buses network as january 2010 (there are other private systems, mostly in outer suburbs)
Created in 1906
Lenght : 3,861 km
Lines : 346
Stops : 6,993
Cars : 4,772


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## marciomaco

Minato ku said:


> Anyway this is not anymore really true as this code is very old and many lines have seen their route modified.
> 
> By exemple the line 66 do Clichy-la-Garenne (northwestern inner suburbs) to Opéra.
> If we read the code the first (6) would be for the area around Gare de Lyon / Gare d'Austerlitz and the second (6) for the East of inner Paris.
> But this line does not serve any of the these areas.


To make better the old number code, they should arrange some kind of other code. (f.e. colors :lol


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## Minato ku

No with the organisation of Paris bus system a color code would be a very bad idea.


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## dale88

Yes because there too many areas, so they would never be enough colours...

And as minato ku said, in paris there is a code with numbers only, its makes a lot of things much easier.


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## Minato ku




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## Eurotram

Minato ku said:


>


Nice photos. But that type of Citadis looks strange.I know it is often visible when tram is adapted to run in "double traction",but this time (just like in Stadler's Tango) the effect is like this:








Very often it looks better when the coupler is uncovered


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## Minato ku

Before the tram were like that 










But as the tram sionce the Porte de Versailles extension (opened last year) and with Pont de Bezon extension (in 2012) run in a less segregated environement it need better protection for the pedestrians.
________________________________________________

RATP bus network is not the only bus system in Paris area
RATP bus mostly serve the inner city and the inner suburbs, in outer suburbs there is many different other compagnies.
These networks are regrouped in the name Optile.

Optile.
1,070 bus lines
24,000 bus stops
250 million passengers per year.


Phébus (Keolis) is a bus system serving Versailles and surrounding.




































Some other bus found in Versailles
Veolia Montesson (serving Montesson Valley)


















Sqybus (serving the New town of Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines)


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## Minato ku

Sqybus
Irisbus Citelis 12


















RATP
Man Lion's City G, my favorite



























Irisbus Citelis 18


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## Metropolitan 3.0

Luli Pop said:


> It wouldn't be confusing. Metro is M1, and tram would be T21...
> Trams and metros have similar frequency and distance between stations, and speed is not so different. Plus, in Paris tariffs are integrated, so no confusion would be possible.
> 
> I think the present system is almost perfect, but it could be simpler with little modifications.


Unfortunately, trams are significantly less frequent than metros in Paris, and their service is also a lot more irregular (especially on T1 or T3, which cross roads). As for speed, I would say tramways from those lines are twice slower. The problem is less true on T2 because it is fully separated from traffic on most of the line though. As for T4, I don't know, I've never taken it.

Overall, I would say tramways in Paris are a lot more an improved version of a bus service than something which could really be compared to a metro service.

As a matter of fact, showing trams on the metro maps instead of the bus maps already looks like a fraud to me. It's often faster to take metro line 6 and then switch to another metro line than it is to take the line T3. And services aren't even more crowded on the metro than they are on the tram.


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## Minato ku

RATP
Renault Agora GNV (Compressed natural gas)


















Transdev CEAT (Express bus: inner Paris to Sainte-Geneviève-des-Bois in southern outer suburbs)
Mercedes Citaro


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## deasine

Mind posting shots of the Mobillien fully segregated bus-only lanes and bus shelters throughout Paris? I'm working on a project related to bus priority and would like to know more information about the Mobillien.


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## Minato ku

Honestly I don't understand all the fuss about Mobilien, it is just quite badly designed segrated bus and taxi lanes.





































If you want a real good busway, the Trans Val de Marne line (Tvm) in southern suburbs is far more interesting.
It has an average speed often higher than most tram, it does have the priority and the frequencies are really great.
With 18.5 million passengers, it is one of busiest bus line of Paris bus network.

I don't really have good pics of this line.


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## deasine

Well see I'm working on something that has to focus on bus-lanes within a limited space in a city centre. Most busways that are fully segregated are in the suburbs, have its own street dedicated to itself, or the street just has a lot of space. 

Any parts of the Mobilien that are semi-segregated from the street?


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## Minato ku

What do you mean exactly by semi segregated ? Because mobilien are semi-segegrated of the traffic.

______________________________________

RATP Heuliez GX 127


















RATP Veolia Heuliez GX 417









Veolia TRA Heuliez GX 327








Heuliez GX 327 and T1 tram


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## deasine

In the cases, I would consider bus lanes on the road with only a painted line separating the bus lane from the general traffic lane(s) equivalent to semi-segregation. Full segregation would be actual medians with few intersections that meet with general traffic.


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## Minato ku

The interesting bus station of Val de Fontenay 

















Renault Agora


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## FDW

Minato ku said:


> snip


It's not all that interesting, in fact it just looks like an American style transit center/park and ride. (albeit in a denser setting, and without the parking.)


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## deasine

^ Aesthetically, I think it's nicer than the average American Transit Centre.


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## Minato ku

^^ It is also nicer than the average parisian one.

Gallieni









Porte d'Orléans


















Asnières Gennevilliers Gabriel Peri









Pont de Sèvres


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## Minato ku

Tram and bus ridership in 2009.

_In million of passengers_

RATP tram : 89 (exclude T4 tram train)
RATP bus : 995
Optile and TRA bus : 309


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## NvkR

This is what the T6 tram will look like:










The line will open in 2014, will be 14 km long and have 21 stops. The RATP is expecting 82 000 passengers a day on this line that will go from Chatillon to Viroflay.

more info (in french):
http://www.ratp.fr/


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## IrishMan2010

Trams look good!


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## Minato ku

^^ This is simplely a Translohr.
I hope the tram wil be longer than in the picture.

The big work of the T6 beginned.
The last I took this road in rush hour, it was completly jammed. 
Over hour in the bus for a trip of less than 5 km. :nuts:


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## NvkR

> Trams look good!


Yeah... it looks.... alright. Definately less sexy than the trams of line T2 or T3, but better than T1, thats for sure. Like Minato said it's a Translohr so we know the design most probably wont change!



> This is simplely a Translohr.
> I hope the tram wil be longer than in the picture.


Well, on the RATP website they say that one tram will be able to carry 250 people including 60 seated. On wikipedia, they say that in the french city of Clermont-Ferrand has, a Translohr tram (4 tramcars) can carry 170 people, including 40 seated. So I'm guessing there will be 5 tramcars for the ones on line T6.


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## Gadiri

Minato ku said:


>


I have seen those new Scania integrated low-floor buses. They seems to be very confortable. 



Minato ku said:


>


Which brand is this one ?


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## Minato ku

^^ It is a Heuliez GX 127.


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## Minato ku

A new model
Irisbus Citelis 12.


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## Minato ku




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## manrush

Are there parts of that line that are at grade or at street level or does T4 run entirely along a mainline railway?

(Also, it's kind of strange that tram-trains could be considered regular LRT here in the US).


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## Minato ku

The T4 is an old railway line converted in tramway like the







but the







use tram-train rolling stock wich can run on regular main line track.
The line connects Aulnay sous Bois







to Bondy







.
It run along RER and mainline tracks near these two stations but most of the line is at grade level.
As it is an old railway line, it is more segregated than other tram lines.










The majority of the line looks like this.


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## juanico

manrush said:


> (Also, it's kind of strange that tram-trains could be considered regular LRT here in the US).


How would you label it then?


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## manrush

juanico said:


> How would you label it then?


I would still call it what it is, a tram-train.


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## Minato ku




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## HARTride 2012

Minato ku said:


>


I love these trams , very sleek, modern, and run very smoothly.


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## Busfotodotnl

It's sad that the T4 (and T3) is not equipped with ticketgates or something. A lot of people travel for free, although thats my opinion after visiting from tramlines in november.


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## HARTride 2012

^^
Ouch...


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## Minato ku

Hôtel de Ville de La Courneuve


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## Minato ku

Extention work between L'Île-Saint-Denis and Saint-Denis.


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## HARTride 2012

^^
Neat


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## Busfotodotnl

^^ Compared with november 2010..


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## Minato ku

Parc de Saint Cloud (interchange with the T2)









Line 84, Boulevard Raspail









Line 20, Gare de Lyon


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## HARTride 2012

^^


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## Minato ku

Near Pont de Bondy.


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## ajw373

Minato ku said:


>


Is this a new bus? Had though most new articulated buses in Paris were MAN. Clearly this is an Irisbus with a body style that looks newer than any articulated bus I have seen in Paris with similar body. The side windows in particular look quite different going so high up the side of the bus.


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## Falubaz

How many ppl fit in that toy?


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## Minato ku

^^ A dozen, enouth for this small shuttle line.








Extension.
Work between Saint Denis and Villeneuve la Garenne


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## Minato ku

The center of Saint Denis will become a hub of the Paris tram network with three lines serving it.







Work at Marché de Saint-Denis 








Marché de Saint-Denis is the first or last station of the line and it will provide an interchange with the T1.
T1 at Marche de Saint-Denis
















 Work at Gare de Saint-Denis








In this picture we see the tracks of the T8 crossing the tracks of the T1.
This may sound usual in many cities but it will be the first time that two tram lines will do it in Paris.


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## Minato ku

Irisbus Agora L


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## Clery

Minato ku said:


> New RATP lively with the grey of the STIF.


That sucks.
The green is ours. hno:


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## Augusto

> With all the extensions on the west and east of the line, I believe that T1 will be split at least in two.
> Because 31 km long is not suitable for a tram line like the T1. The whole trip between Colombes Gabriel Peri and Val de Fontenay will take at least two hours. :nuts:
> And it's not over, another extension is planned on the western side further inside Nanterre.


I agree, the line will likely be split into 2 lines, with 2 different rolling stocks, as the TFS could not deal with the gradients on the eastern extension. Rouen is about to get ridd of its TFS fleet so a good option would be to buy them back for the western extension.


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## Minato ku

RATP Irisbus Daily








First time I see this type of minibus, here spotted in Neuilly.


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## HARTride 2012

^^
Sleek looking minibus. Compared to the ones we have here in the US.


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## Minato ku

La Défense


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## Minato ku

A day picture iof the new RATP STIF lively.


















STIF is the regional transportation autority, it was quiet but now it want its name and its silver grey on every new bus, RER and suburban trains.
The next victim will be the metro.


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## ajw373

Very ugly livery. A little bit more green on the side would help.


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## Minato ku

Fortunately it has only spread to RATP buses paid by the STIF (regional transportation autority), the RATP buses paid by the RATP are still green.


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## Busfotodotnl

A TFS-tram of Paris tramway line 1 at a bridge over a railway line at Rue de Stalingrad near the tram stop Gaston Roulaud. Slums in Paris, it's a shame.


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## Busfotodotnl

Photos and a video of the T2-extension from La Défense tot Pont de Bezons. At january the 26th 2012, i made i video of the full traject (excluding the last stop) to give you an impression of the status of the project.






Near station Faubourg de l'Arch









Nearly completed at the Boulevard Charles de Gaulle.



























The new tram depot of Colombes with space for 18 Citadis 302 trams.


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## Busfotodotnl

A T Zen bus of Veolia Transport on line 1 at Lieusaint - Moissy RER.


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## Busfotodotnl

Taken from a RER train, this Renault SC10 at Villeneuve. Anyone an idea of its status?


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## Minato ku

Heritage vehicule maybe ? :dunno:

How was the Tzen ? I never took it.


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## Busfotodotnl

Now you can! Enjoy the ride!


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## Minato ku

I am pretty disappointed by the Tzen, the line seems great in Sénart but in Corbeil-Essonnes it is not better than any average bus, it doesn't even have segregated lane.

It was the driver who was hearing rap music and african cup result ?


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## Busfotodotnl

Yeah he was hno: . I got the idea that these buses have an USB-connection for the driver where you can plug in a MP3-player.

He also went to trough the red traffic light at 0:40, 1:17, 3:26, 5:19, 5:36, 6:40, 8:30, so it's waiting on the first accident.

The bus was also 4 minutes late; nevertheless there was only a bad connection between the RER and bus. Finally the validators did not work.


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## Minato ku

Scania OmniCity articulated Orlybus


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## Busfotodotnl

A new video from Paris: works for the extension of tramway line 3 and the new line 3est at Porte de Vincennes:


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## city_thing

Busfotodotnl said:


> A TFS-tram of Paris tramway line 1 at a bridge over a railway line at Rue de Stalingrad near the tram stop Gaston Roulaud. Slums in Paris, it's a shame.


Slums in Paris...? Really? I had no idea!



Minato ku said:


> Scania OmniCity articulated Orlybus


And why is the Australian/New Zealand/Southern Cross flag hanging up in Paris? Was it for some special event?


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## Minato ku

There are some eastern european roma slums around train tracks in Paris.
When one is demolished by autorities and a new one appeared after.

About the Australian flag, it is because of the Australian restaurant located here.


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## ajw373

Gee never notice those flags in the picture. Now here is a test what is the 3rd flag in the pic? The blue one with the white cross.


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## Minato ku

Eureka Flag, I believe.

Renault Agora 

















With the withdraw of all R312, now it is among the oldest rolling stock of Paris buses.


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## parcdesprinces

ajw373 said:


> Now here is a test what is the 3rd flag in the pic? The blue one with the white cross.


French Royal Merchant Navy / Marine Marchande Royale Française ?? :yes: :| :



parcdesprinces said:


> Royal Merchant Navy :





.


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## Minato ku

^^ :rofl:

Seriously, in order not to mislead some other members, it seems to be Eureka Flag.


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## ajw373

Minato ku said:


> ^^ :rofl:
> 
> Seriously, in order not to mislead some other members, it seems to be Eureka Flag.


That it is, now one last question what is the location of this restaurant, err photograph of the bus? May have to pop in next time I am in Paris, though think that may be a few years off now I no longer live in the UK and am back in Aus.


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## Minato ku

Denfert-Rochereau, the building is RER station main entrance.
The old terminal station of the Sceaux line, now RER B.


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## Minato ku

RATP, Mercedes Citaro


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## Busfotodotnl




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## Minato ku

RATP, Man Lion's City Hybrid


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## Minato ku

Bondy









Some buses at Aulnay-sous-Bois, the northern last stop of the T4.


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## HARTride 2012

^^
A lot of STIF grey there.


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## Minato ku

^^ Veolia TRA network buses.


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## HARTride 2012

^^
Oh I see. Where do they travel?


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## Minato ku

In northeastern suburbs, mainly in Seine Saint Denis around Aulnay-sous-Bois.


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## Minato ku

New bus stop at Bastille.


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## Thelème

^^cool, more pictures please


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## Minato ku

Construction in Épinay-sur-Seine


























With the tramway and the construction of a new mall, the center of Épinay-sur-Seine is completely under the work.


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## Minato ku

Athis car network
The network is centered around Athis-Mons, a southeastern outer suburb in the south of Orly airport.
The picture are in Juvisy, a major suburban train station of the southeastern outer suburb located south of Athis-Mons.


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## Minato ku

in test, north of La Défense.
In this moment, every trams run to Pont de Bezon but without passengers.


















Three tram extensions will in open in the next months.
T1: November 15, 2012
T2: November 19, 2012
T3 (T3a and T3b): December 15, 2012


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## Nephasto

I have a question related to the T3a/b inauguration:
-Wouldn't it make sense to extend the tramways 3a and 3b from Porte de Vincennes to Nation, in order to connect with RER A?
I think that it would be quite simple (just using the existing sidewalk) and usefull for people coming from the East of Paris who use RER A.


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## Nephasto

Minato ku said:


> La Défense
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While quite dark and not particulary beautiful, I like this station.
> Especially having the tram platform next to the suburban train platforms.


RER station ins Paris are mostly quite dark, and I think that is because the ceilings are black.
The station of T2 in your photo is dark because of that same reason.


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## Minato ku

^^ Note taht it isn't the RER station but the suburban train station with train comming form Saint Lazare terminal (PCentral Paris), Versailles, Saint-Quentin en Yvelines (Transilien L and U).
La Défense is pretty well connected the southwestern suburbs.


Nephasto said:


> I have a question related to the T3a/b inauguration:
> -Wouldn't it make sense to extend the tramways 3a and 3b from Porte de Vincennes to Nation, in order to connect with RER A?
> I think that it would be quite simple (just using the existing sidewalk) and usefull for people coming from the East of Paris who use RER A.


At Nation, the tram station would be a bit too far of the RER station entrances because of two columns the tram could not be closer.

Avenue du Trône, 12e 20e par Minato ku, sur Flickr


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## Nephasto

^^Still, it could end right before the columns, within 100 something meters of the metro/RER entrance.


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## Minato ku

More like 250m-300m (if the reversal is before the station) with several avenues to cross.
Without forgetting that this section will be very expensive, there is two metro tunnel just under Avenue du Trones (line 1 and 2).
To build a tram above old metro tunnel , we must strengthen the tunnels.
This tram is already very expensive and this section will add even more to this price.

Between Porte de Vincennes and Nation, there is already the line 1 of the metro.

__________________________________








Basilique de Saint Denis (tomorrow the extension to Gennevilliers open)


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## Busfotodotnl

How about new stock for T1? The extension is quite long and i think they need extra trams veside of the original TFS2-trams. Are there already second hand trams from.Rouen?


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## Minato ku

The RATP has several extra TFS trams, the former rolling stock of the T2.


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## Minato ku

Opening of the section Les Courtilles - Gare de Saint Denis
While the extension opened to passengers this thursday, the official inauguration will be this week end.

4.9km and 10 new station
The T1 is now 17 km long with 36 station









Unlike the other parisians tram lines, there are two short sections where the T1 shares tracks with the car traffic.
One in the Ile-Saint-Denis, and the second in the town center of Gennevilliers.


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## Minato ku




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## Augusto

Nice pics Minato. But you could have write the streets names for non parisiens readers


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## Minato ku

> *Paris opens light rail line T1 extension*
> Written by Keith Barrow, Friday, November 16, 2012
> 
> *THE 4.9km western extension of Paris light rail line T1 from Saint Denis to Asnières Gennevilliers Les Courtilles opened on November 15.*
> 
> Construction began in 2008 on the €150m extension which has 10 stations, including interchanges with RER Line D at Saint Denis, RER Line C at Gennevilliers, and Metro Line 13 at Les Courtilles.
> The journey time between Saint Denis and Les Courtilles is 17 minutes, and services operate at minimum intervals of four minutes during peak periods.
> A further 8km eastern extension is planned, which will take trams from Noisy-le-Sec to Romainville and Montreuil, terminating at an interchange with RER Line A at Val-de-Fontenay. Paris Transport Authority (RATP) will procure 15 additional low-floor LRVs to provide the additional capacity required for the €400m extension, which is due to be completed in 2016.


http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/light-rail/paris-light-rail-line-t1-goes-west.html#.UKgbPoezJ8E


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## Minato ku

Extension of T2 opening (Pont de Bezon - La Défense
4.2km and 7 new station.
The T2 is now 17.9 km long with 24 stations.









Pont de Bezons



































Victor Basch


























Jacqueline Auriol


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## Minato ku

Charlebourg



































Les Fauvelles

















Suburban train








Faubourg de l'Arche








Tram comming from la Defense


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## Minato ku

La Défense 
With the opening of the extension, there been some changes at this station.
This station is not anymore the terminal stop and traffic will grow (La Defense is already the busiest tram stop), with its previous configuration it could not cope with this increase.

Even if this station is still made of a single island platform, the platform was lengthened and trams don't stop anymore at the same position on both sides of the platform.
Tram bound to Pont de Bezons stop on the north side of the platform and tram bound to Porte de Versailles stop on south side.

Here the south side of the platform, the new extended part of the station.

















The northern side








New exits have been built


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## Minato ku

*Paris tram network towards 2020.*









Next opening: T3a to Porte de Vincennes and T3b on December 15.
_______________________________________

*Bus and tram ridership in 2011*

Tram: 114 million (+5.5%)
RATP bus: 1,001 million (+2.6%)
OPTILES and TRA bus: 331 million (+3.4%)
Total bus and tram network: 1,446 million (+3%)


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## Busfotodotnl

Construction works for the future T7-line. Photos not by me but by someone of symbioz.net.


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## Nephasto

Any photos of T3 extension?


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## Minato ku

Opening of the extension
Sorry, I couldn't take good pics because of the weather. I will take more picture the next week.

Arriving at Maryse Bastié








Alexandra David-Néel








Porte de Vincennes terminal stop of the T3a and the T3b, T3a platforms








The two lines platforms are in the both side of the Avenue.

















Porte de Vincennes T3b platforms








Porte de la Chapelle, northwestern end of the T3b


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## Nephasto

Is it easy to cross the road at Porte de Vincennes between T3a and T3b?


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## SparksTO

Minato ku Thank you very much for yours updates, I really appreciate it.


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## Minato ku

Nephasto said:


> Is it easy to cross the road at Porte de Vincennes between T3a and T3b?


I would not say that it is easy and I will not say that it is difficult, the traffic is quite busy but there are pedestrain crossings. 
You can use the subway station to cross thev street, there are metro entrances on both side of the Avenue.


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## HARTride 2012

^^
What is the purpose of that bridge then?


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## Minato ku

The bridge is the old Petite Ceinture (inner belt) railway line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemin_de_fer_de_Petite_Ceinture


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## HARTride 2012

^^
Oh I see.

I think it could be put to use as a bike trail


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## Nephasto

Minato ku said:


> I would not say that it is easy and I will not say that it is difficult, the traffic is quite busy but there are pedestrain crossings.
> You can use the subway station to cross thev street, there are metro entrances on both side of the Avenue.


Do the pedestrian crossing have traffic lights?


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## Minato ku

With the heavy car traffic and the pedestrian traffic that trams will bring, the pedestrain crossing have traffic lights.
It was the case before the tram. Cours de Vincennes would be very tough to cross without traffic lights.


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## importedfromserbia

Busfotodotnl said:


> Yeah he was hno: . I got the idea that these buses have an USB-connection for the driver where you can plug in a MP3-player.
> 
> He also went to trough the red traffic light at 0:40, 1:17, 3:26, 5:19, 5:36, 6:40, 8:30, so it's waiting on the first accident.
> 
> The bus was also 4 minutes late; nevertheless there was only a bad connection between the RER and bus. Finally the validators did not work.


Well, if you pay attention to the stop light you'll notice that stop light is for pedestrians.


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## Nephasto

Minato ku said:


> With the heavy car traffic and the pedestrian traffic that trams will bring, the pedestrain crossing have traffic lights.
> It was the case before the tram. Cours de Vincennes would be very tough to cross without traffic lights.


Indeed it would. Its good that there are traffic lights.


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## Minato ku

As I promised, some other pictures of the new extension.








Between Maryse Bastié and Porte de France.
Maryse Bastié station, before this boulevard (Boulevard Massena) was elevated.








A google street view of the area before the tram in 2009. 








This bridge is the unsued Petite Ceinture (inner belt) railway line, it has been replaced by a new one.








Before, it was a very unfriendly place for pedestrians.








Porte de France station, the area is quite empty for the moment but in few years this area will be completly different.








Porte de France is above the track of Gare d'Austerlitz, this hole will be covered by buildings
Several high-rises are planned.

















Between Delphine Sering and Canal Saint Denis. 
Delphine Sering station

















Grand Moulin de Pantin and Ourcq canal

















Porte de la Vilette station

















Quai de la Gironde, next to the Saint Denis Canal

















Canal Saint Denis station.








A google street view of the area in 2008.


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## Nephasto

Minato ku said:


> Porte de France station, the area is quite empty for the moment but in few years this area will be completly different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Porte de France is above the track of Gare d'Austerlitz, this hole will be covered by buildings
> Several high-rises are planned.


Is it straightforward to go from Porte de France station (T3) to Biblioteque station (RER C; M14)?
It is signaled as a connection with a walk, and its about 500m, but my question is if there is a direct pleasent walkable path.


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## juanico

Very nice idea to post before/after pictures. The changes are stunning!


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## Minato ku

Nephasto said:


> Is it straightforward to go from Porte de France station (T3) to Biblioteque station (RER C; M14)?
> It is signaled as a connection with a walk, and its about 500m, but my question is if there is a direct pleasent walkable path.


Yes, by using the Avenue de France, the Avenue is now open to Marechaux (where is located the tram).
The closest RER entrance is on Avenue de France, 350m further and the closest metro entrance is at 500m of tram also on Avenue de France.


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## Minato ku

Extension, video of the RATP.


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## LtBk

Slight off-topic, but are the French generally supportive of mass transit?


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## Ledindondelafarce

LtBk said:


> Slight off-topic, but are the French generally supportive of mass transit?


French mostly support mass transit and tend to use it often, at least in cities. 
However, many French people love their car too, so tramways and busways usually get hated as they reduce the place for automobiles.


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## Minato ku

France is among the european countries with the lowest use of the public transportation by the population.
It is not that French people hate it but the service in most of the country is quite limited, most of the population don't live in large or medium city.


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## Attus

On the other hand in Paris and Ile de France the ridership of public transport and the modal split is pretty high. A little bit lower but quite high is it in some medium sized towns (e.g. Strasbourg) as well.


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## dimlys1994

RATP announced the start of construction of tunnel for tramway line 6 in Viroflay

http://www.ratp.fr/fr/ratp/r_82075/tramway-t6-c-est-le-bapteme-pour-son-tunnelier-/

Correct me, if I wrong.


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## Slartibartfas

Wow, these changes along the T3 line are stunning. Some outright hostile areas seem to have been transformed into rather nice ones.


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## Minato ku

Porte de Vincennes
T3b platforms

















T3b tracks to the north








T3a tracks to the south


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## MK Tom

Are literally all the Paris tram lines off-street? Every line I've looked at seems to be on reserved formation.

Also is tram ticketing integrated with the metro, RER, local SNCF services and so on?


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## LaMingue

> Are literally all the Paris tram lines off-street? Every line I've looked at seems to be on reserved formation.


Except for some portions of Tramway Line 1 in Saint-Denis, all tram lines run on reserved platforms.



> Also is tram ticketing integrated with the metro, RER, local SNCF services and so on?


There are three ticketing schemes in Paris:
- Bus and trams;
- Metro and RER (inner Paris);
- RER (outside Paris) and commuter trains have specific fare schemes.


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## Minato ku

There are three sections in the T1 not segregrated to the traffic
Saint Denis, rue Auguste Delaune (traffic restricted): 250m








Ile Saint Denis: 500m








Genevilliers town center: 100m (westbound), 200m (eastbound).




















LaMingue said:


> - RER (outside Paris) and commuter trains have specific fare schemes.


Note that if the ticket includes Paris as departure or arrival, you can use the metro with this ticket.

Ticket visit and one day ticket include all the transport inside the fare zones you have.
It is the same thing for smart card.


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## MK Tom

Thanks for the info! I wonder why the decision was made to go to the added expense of building off-street alignments for everywhere else; T2, 3 and 4 seem less like trams and more like American-style light metro systems.

So is the one day ticket kind of like a London travelcard where you just buy it from any station for a set number of zones and use it on all modes within that area? I'm guessing this being France that it'll need to be validated each time too.

Lastly, do we have opening dates for 'tram' lines T5 and T6 yet? I was looking round their websites with my limited grasp of French but I couldn't find a definite date for either.


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## Minato ku

MK Tom said:


> Thanks for the info! I wonder why the decision was made to go to the added expense of building off-street alignments for everywhere else; T2, 3 and 4 seem less like trams and more like American-style light metro systems.


Because it is how are build modern tram in France.
We try to segregate it as much as it is possible to the traffic.

If there are sections where T1 is mixed with traffic, it is because the streets were not wide enouth.



MK Tom said:


> So is the one day ticket kind of like a London travelcard where you just buy it from any station for a set number of zones and use it on all modes within that area? I'm guessing this being France that it'll need to be validated each time too.


One day tickets are called "Mobilis", you chose the zones (zones 1 and 2 are mandatory) and you can use it, for all the day you have validated it. 
It needs to be validated each time.

zones 1 - 2: €6.60
zones 1 - 3: €8.80
zones 1 - 4: €10.85
zones 1 - 5: €15.65

On weekends and public holiday, there are one day illimited tickets for people under 26 years old.
It is called "Ticket Jeunes Week-end".

zones 1 - 3: €3.65 
zones 1 - 5: €7.85 
zones 3 - 5: €4.60 



MK Tom said:


> Lastly, do we have opening dates for 'tram' lines T5 and T6 yet? I was looking round their websites with my limited grasp of French but I couldn't find a definite date for either.


Not yet, anyway we usually know the opening date only a few months before the opening.


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## sotonsi

T4 is a transferred rail alignment (and run by SNCF), T2 is mostly ex-SCNF alignment, T3 is down the middle of Boulevards.

Segregating trams as much as possible is the way to keep the system reliable and fast. Lightly used rail alignments and wide road alignments both work well, as do alongside-road routes to new development. Using the tram's street running capability can be useful - Manchester Metrolink moving the line through central Oldham, rather than dodging it on the railway line (as currently, temporarily is the case) as well as more typical central-area distribution (eg Manchester and Croydon in the UK).

Paris is taking a tram approach in parallel with the better UK systems - segregation is good, taking over poorly used rail routes is good, running on street if necessary is better than expensive tunneling...


----------



## Augusto

LaMingue said:


> Except for some portions of Tramway Line 1 in Saint-Denis, all tram lines run on reserved platforms.
> 
> 
> 
> There are three ticketing schemes in Paris:
> - Bus and trams;
> - Metro and RER (inner Paris);
> - RER (outside Paris) and commuter trains have specific fare schemes.


I would have considered bus and trams separetly: you can transfer from one bus line to another with one ticket but if you transfer from one tram to another tram or from the tram to the bus you'll have to use 2 tickets.


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## Minato ku

Augusto said:


> I would have considered bus and trams separetly: you can transfer from one bus line to another with one ticket but if you transfer from one tram to another tram or from the tram to the bus you'll have to use 2 tickets.


No, you can make a transfer between two tram lines and between the bus and tram with one ticket.
LaMingue is right.


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## lechevallierpatrick

Pourquoi ne pas utiliser le pont de la petite ceinture comme passerelle piétons entre les 2 terminus(T3a et T3b)avec l'ajou d'escalators des deux cotés?


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## Minato ku

There is no need, there are subway entrances at both sides of the avenue, next to the tram station.
If you don't want to wait the green light on crossing, you can use them as underpass.

The Petite Ceinture is still owned by RFF, so even if it is unused, it is still a railway infrastructure.


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## CNGL

Minato ku said:


> Actually since December, there is a line 35 between Mairie d'Aubervilliers and Gare de l'Est.
> The line 65 was splite in two. (formerly Aubervilliers - Gare de Lyon).
> Line 35 Aubervilliers - Gare de l'Est
> Line 65 Porte de la Chapelle - Gare de Lyon.


I did not knew about the 65 split. I knew that a 3 as first number means that starts at Gare de l'Est and a 5 as second number means that goes to the North or Northeast, and since Gare de l'Est is already in the Northeast part, a line 35 was unlikely.


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## Minato ku

Gare de l'Est is in the northeast side of Central Paris, The city spread much more after. 
Line 35
3X For Gare de l'Est
X5 For Mairie d'Aubervilliers in northeastern inner suburbs.
The line 35 is 5.5km long.

The lines 35 and 65 have the same route between Marx Dormoy (18th arrondissements) and Gare de l'Est.
It was the busiest section of the line 65.










You can see in the map that the numbering scheme doesn't really matter anymore.
There are lines with 3X departing of Gare du Nord and line with 4X departing of Gare de l'Est.
We can see the lines that have been shortened or those who have been extended.

The worse is the line 66 (Opera - Clichy Victor Hugo)
6X is for Gare de Lyon and X6 is for the east (Porte de Pantin to Porte de Bercy).
The line 66 services none of those areas.
Opera is at the oposite side of Central Paris to Gare de Lyon and Clichy is in the northwest.
The line 66 should be called the line 24.

The line 24 exists and it is not called according the numbering scheme.
Line 24 (Saint-Lazare - Maison Alfort in southeastern suburbs by Bercy).
While the 2X is good for Saint-Lazare Opera area, the number 4 is for the northwest.
The correct number of the line 24 should be the number 26.
The line 26 exists (Saint-Lazare - Nation).


----------



## dale88

CNGL said:


> I did not knew about the 65 split. I knew that a 3 as first number means that starts at Gare de l'Est and a 5 as second number means that goes to the North or Northeast, and since Gare de l'Est is already in the Northeast part, a line 35 was unlikely.


Hi, as a regular user of line 35 and before that the line 65 (which is my childhood bus line), the split between the 2 lines has some good and bad effects.

The positive ones, the creation of line 35 allowed a better split of the passenger load, with line 65 taking the passengers wanting to go Porte de la chapelle (the new northern terminus of the line and western terminus of tram line T3b), and line 35 is now taking the load of passengers wanting to go further in the suburb of Aubervilliers.

It also simplifies the management of line 65 with a shorter route and as a result shorter time to run the entire line.

The negatives are that people living in the suburb town of Aubervilliers, do not have a direct access to Porte de la chapelle anymore.

People need to take line 35 and then tram T3b or the newly created bus line 512 at Mairie d'aubervilliers, a shuttle line connecting the town with the new terminus of metro line 12 at Front populaire.

However the passenger load is pretty low on line 512 and the bus get more crowded only during rush hour, the rest of the time its more like 2 to 5 people.

That was my 2 cents on the topic of line 35

dale88


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## Minato ku

*Antony - Clamart tram*
STIF (Paris regional transportation autority) Board approved the first phase of studies
The line would be 8.2km long with 14 stations

Early 2013: presentation of the project and public meetings
2013 - 2014: Further studies
2015: Public inquiry
2016 - 2017: In-depth studies
2017: Start of construction
2020 - 2021: Opening

No number yet but it is likely to be called T10


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## Swede

Am I missing somethin or is Place du Garde a strange place to end the line? Why not create a connection to Transilien N and the Grand Express Rouge?
/French spelling is not one of my strengths.


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## Minato ku

The problem is the size of the streets.
There are only small streets in the area, no main and wide street linking Place de la Garde to Clamart station (Transilien N, Grand Paris Express red line).



Swede said:


> /French spelling is not one of my strengths.


Me too and I am french.


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## MK Tom

Minato ku said:


> *Antony - Clamart tram*
> STIF (Paris regional transportation autority) Board approved the first phase of studies
> The line would be 8.2km long with 14 stations
> 
> Early 2013: presentation of the project and public meetings
> 2013 - 2014: Further studies
> 2015: Public inquiry
> 2016 - 2017: In-depth studies
> 2017: Start of construction
> 2020 - 2021: Opening
> 
> No number yet but it is likely to be called T10


Are we looking at a full-blown tram line or a Translohr line here? Seeing as it interchanges with the Translohr T6 then interoperability would make some sense. Then again the use of a totally incompatible system for T5 and T6 is a complete mystery to me.


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## Swede

Minato ku said:


> The problem is the size of the streets.
> There are only small streets in the area, no main and wide street linking Place de la Garde to Clamart station (Transilien N, Grand Paris Express red line).


Not even any big enough for one of the tracks? As in, having the northbound tracks on one street and the southbound ones on the next street over...



Minato ku said:


> Me too and I am french.


At least I have the handy excuse of never having studied French :cheers:


----------



## Minato ku

MK Tom said:


> Are we looking at a full-blown tram line or a Translohr line here? Seeing as it interchanges with the Translohr T6 then interoperability would make some sense. Then again the use of a totally incompatible system for T5 and T6 is a complete mystery to me.


I don't know but normally, it should be a normal tram.
The tram T6 and Antony - Clamart tram will be segregated.
At Hopital Béclère the two lines will be at two different level.

Orange: T6
Purple: Antony - Clamart tram


----------



## Nephasto

MK Tom said:


> Then again the use of a totally incompatible system for T5 and T6 is a complete mystery to me.


Don't you mean T5 and T1 (which will almost intersect)?


----------



## MK Tom

Kind of - what I mean is it seems illogical to me to use the Translohr system for T5 and T6 when Paris already has a growing network of tram lines. It precludes any future running between those two lines and the rest of the network. Who knows how much the tram system might grow over coming decades? Building two lines to be totally incompatible seems very peculiar. I don't dislike Translohr as a system; it's a nice cheap alternative for small towns and cities like Clermont-Ferrand and Venice. But installing it in a city that already has trams is an unusual decision. It'd be like adding a Translohr line in Strasbourg or Lyon... it adds to the network, but it doesn't add to the system. It limits potential for future re-configuring of the system and services.

Translohr does have obvious drawbacks in the one-manufacturer nature of the stock. If all manufacturers standardised on the Translohr rail design then we'd have some guarantee of the long-term viability of the system. Currently we have the situation where if this one line of vehicles is discontinued, or the company goes under, there's nothing new that can ever operate on these lines. Seeing as the Bombardier GLT system has failed spectacularly, it'd make sense for the Translohr version to be adopted as the global standard for rubber tyred tram systems across all manufacturers. I still prefer proper tram systems, but the Translohr instillations in Paris and other cities will always be there, will want extending and at some point will want new vehicles.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Paris tram lines are not built to make a network like many other cities.
Tram are built to replace busy bus lines or serve areas with few mass transit.
Even with 11 lines in 2020, there will be only 8 stations where transfer between two tram lines will be possible.

T1a - T1b: Bobigny Pablo Picasso
T1 - T2: Parc Pierre Lagraviere 
T1 - T5: Marché de Saint Denis
T1 - T8: Gare de Saint-Denis 
T2 - T3a: Porte de Versailles
T3a - T3b: Porte de Vincennes
T3a - T9: Porte de Choisy 
T6 - T10: Hopital Béclère

With the further extension, the T1 will be split in two lines like the T3.
I imagined that the Porte de Choiy - Orly tram will be T8 and Antony - Clamart tram will be T10.


----------



## MK Tom

Do you mean Porte de Choisy would be T9? 

Even if these lines aren't meant to form a network, surely it'd be logical to allow for that in the future? We don't know what the travel habits of Parisians will be in 20 years. There may be demand for through services for some reason. It just seems an obvious case of futureproofing to design all the tram lines to be inter-compatible.


----------



## Minato ku

I don't think that the RATP is in favor of an intercompatibility between lines.
Don't forget that he line T3 has been splite in two lines and it will be also the case of the T1 with the further extension.

______________________________________________________

My bus line (line 128) has lost its Renault Agora of 1999.


















The Irisbus Citelis with RATP Stif livery have replaced them.


----------



## MK Tom

Minato ku said:


> I don't think that the RATP is in favor of an intercompatibility between lines.
> Don't forget that he line T3 has been splite in two lines and it will be also the case of the T1 with the further extension.


Yeah I know... That's a very bizarre, 1960s-style attitude for them to take. I can't think of any other city globally that's actually gone out of its way to avoid lines being interoperable.

Cool pictures btw as always


----------



## Northridge

Minato ku said:


> My bus line (line 128) has lost its Renault Agora of 1999.


Is that a good thing?
Reason why I'm asking is that the only place I've seen Renault buses is in France, so I guess them are not as good as intended. Not due to them being french, obviously, but the fact that no one else seems to be buying them.


----------



## HARTride 2012

^^
I understand from one of my business classes when I was in the university here in the US, that Renault tried to market its vehicles (passenger vehicles, not transit) in the US during the 70s/80s but they did not do too well and pulled out of that market.


----------



## Minato ku

Northridge said:


> Is that a good thing?
> Reason why I'm asking is that the only place I've seen Renault buses is in France, so I guess them are not as good as intended. Not due to them being french, obviously, but the fact that no one else seems to be buying them.


It is because Renault Agora was primary made for the french market.
It is really with Irisbus that they have targeted a more international market.
Irisbus Citelis is the successor of renault Agora and so far it has quite well spread around Europe.


----------



## Slartibartfas

MK Tom said:


> Yeah I know... That's a very bizarre, 1960s-style attitude for them to take. I can't think of any other city globally that's actually gone out of its way to avoid lines being interoperable.


That seems extremely weird to me as well. I also saw the Translohr system in Mestre live and real and my superficial impression was that you combine the disadvantages of trams with those of heavy rubber based transportation. 

I wonder what was such a big incentive to make systems not interoperable? Because interoperability is not an incentive by itself. Its not just potential changes in the future but also the larger the variety in the used system the less you can use benefits of economy of scale.


----------



## emyrr3096

any new photos of city bus, LRT, and tram car in Pariskay:


----------



## ajw373

Northridge said:


> Is that a good thing?
> Reason why I'm asking is that the only place I've seen Renault buses is in France, so I guess them are not as good as intended. Not due to them being french, obviously, but the fact that no one else seems to be buying them.


You have not been to Australia then? Both Perth and the capital Canberra have large numbers of Renualt buses. Both ordered large numbers of PR100.2's and PR180.2's in the late 80's and early 90's, the Canberra units carried the Renault logo but were branded Mack as Mack trucks were the sales agent in the country. Then in the mid 90's Renault produced a bus called the PR100.3 which was only sold in Australia, this was a cross between a PR100.2 and an R312. Perth got 1 trial unit and Canberra 40+ production units.

Of course Renault was then merged into Iris and again Iris was reasonably popular in Australia, with the Agora. Canberra has 20 (they were ordered by a company called Kings that went bust and the Canberra local government purchased them).

Plenty of pics can be found here:

http://www.actbus.net/gallery/index.php/ACTION-Buses-Current


----------



## Minato ku

Renault Agora and MAN Lion's City at Pont de Levallois (western end of metro line 3).

Renault Agora is the bus #2867 in service since June 1999
MAN Lion's City is the bus #9602 in service since January 2011.

















There are Agora with a larger advertising space at the back. This Agora is the bus #7587 in service since May 2001. 








There are also Agora with smaller advertising space at the back. This Agora is the bus #7921 in service since February 2002.


----------



## Minato ku

*Tram-train Massy Evry*
Between Massy and Epinay, the tram train line use the former track of the RER C and between Epinay sur Orges and Evry the line wil use new tram track.










Map of the line.








-20 km
-17 stations
-38 minutes ride.
-40,000 daily passengers
Opening by the end 2018

Video in french


----------



## MK Tom

Does this line have a T number?


----------



## Minato ku

No number yet, we only know the number to the T8.
I don't even know if the Tram-train Massy Evry will be a T# line.


----------



## LaMingue

I've heard that this line, as well as Tangentielles Ouest and Nord, could be named "Tram Express" with a letter. Which gives: TeO, TeN, TeS. 

To be confirmed...


----------



## Swede

Minato ku said:


> *Tram-train Massy Evry*
> Between Massy and Epinay, the tram train line use the former track of the RER C and between Epinay sur Orges and Evry the line wil use new tram track.


When did RER C use the tracks and why doesn't it use it anymore?


----------



## Minato ku

Works in Sarcelles


----------



## MK Tom

Minato, you're awesome!!

I'm surprised there isn't some kind of buffer or barrier at the end of the 'track'.


----------



## Minato ku

Renault Agora (line 94: Levallois - Gare Montparnasse)








Man Lion's City G (line number and direction plannel not working) (line 80: Porte de Versailles - Jules Joffrin Mairie du 18e)








Irisbus Citelis line (line 22: Porte de Saint-Cloud - Opéra) followed by a Man Lion's City G (line 43: Neuilly - Gare du Nord)








Irisbus Citelis 12 (line 32: Porte d'Auteuil - Gare de l'Est)








Irisbus Citelis 12 (line 32) and Man Lion's City G (line 43) a bit further in the east.


----------



## Slartibartfas

I think the light rail lines look great and there is a lot of urban development going on along the corridors. But I just don't get it why anyone would choose Translohr. It just makes no sense. A proprietary system that successfully combines the disadvantages of two worlds. Great.


----------



## MK Tom

Slartibartfas said:


> I think the light rail lines look great and there is a lot of urban development going on along the corridors. But I just don't get it why anyone would choose Translohr. It just makes no sense. A proprietary system that successfully combines the disadvantages of two worlds. Great.


I don't really mind Translohr as a cheaper alternative for smaller towns, like Clermont-Ferrand. There's kind of a case for it there, if a weak one. But its use in Paris is just plain bizarre. As I and others have said in this thread, it removes all possibility of future through-running between tram lines. It doesn't matter if there are no immediate plans for through running, say from T1 onto T5, the system will expand in the future and removing the potential to use T5 and T6 as part of a wider network is just illogical and pretty stupid really.


----------



## Minato ku

I don't think you will see any real through-running in Paris tram, it is not conceived as such.
The main system is the metro and RER, trams are just secondary lines who carry commuters to the metro or RER like the bus in periphery.

While I am not in favor of Translohr, I also against the fact to built tram in Central Paris, it would be very costly for serving an area already well covered when there are plenty area in the periphery unserved and this the only way to create a wide interconnected tram network. 

If you think the tram as a transport to cover some unserved gap to link to the the heavy mass transit system, you can't think Paris tram network as a single interconnected system because of the size of the city.


----------



## Slartibartfas

Does anyone have numbers to compare the costs of tram lines vs Translohr? Including real maintenance costs...


----------



## Minato ku

^^ No unfortunately.
_____________________________








Tunnel work


----------



## Highcliff

wwooww...paris has one of the most beautiful lines of light rail.....


----------



## dan72

Had a costing for light rail versus translohr in 2010 for australia was about double may have changed now?


----------



## Minato ku

dan72 said:


> Had a costing for light rail versus translohr in 2010 for australia was about double may have changed now?


But he ask with maintenance costs.
_________________________________________








Issy-Val de Seine


----------



## MK Tom

I was shocked when I traveled on T2. Appallingly over capacity. Even with double five-section trams it was full and standing, people crammed in as much as possible, with people having to wait up to five departures to even get on board the vehicle.

A few pictures from my own visits:


----------



## Minato ku

MK Tom said:


> I was shocked when I traveled on T2. Appallingly over capacity. Even with double five-section trams it was full and standing, people crammed in as much as possible, with people having to wait up to five departures to even get on board the vehicle.


The T2 is very crowded during rush hour, especially near la Défense.
Execpt for the T4, all the tram line are crowded. The T1 is maybe the worst, it is packed all the day.
This situation shows well that trams are quite insufficient for some of the routes where they were built.
We clearly need more subway in the periphery of Paris

I am afraid to see how the situation will be with the T6, not only the line will crowded but with the quite unreliable Translohr.


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ or more tram lines. The big advantage of trams are that you can build a much finer network even outside of the metropolitan core. As it stands, those tram lines in greater Paris are only single lines. Maybe one should think about adding parallel lines in a certain distance, creating a real network. Alternatively one would have to upgrade the existing corridors for longer vehicles and/or higher frequencies.

An overused system is a good sign however, compared to an underused one. It shows the demand is clearly there for even more PT.


----------



## Minato ku

Streets are not wide enough, there is very few wide avenues in suburbs, especially in circular suburbs to suburbs route.
Subway would be more efficient and would provide a better development of the area.


----------



## trainrover

What are circular suburbs, or do you mean inter-suburb trips?


----------



## Minato ku

I mean a route from a suburb to a suburb that don't use a direction leading to Central Paris.
Most of the street are small two streets, not wide enough to have an efficient tram line that would not be stuck in the traffic.


----------



## Clery

The problem of trams isn't only the capacity, it is also the speed.

While tram can be interesting for local trips, it's just not competitive enough to cross the whole city.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Minato, do you know how many buses of each model are there in Paris (RATP)? And how many models / brands are there? Thank you.


----------



## Minato ku

Heuliez GX317: 4
Renault Agora: 1012
Irisbus Agora line: 414
Irisbus Citelis line: 884
Irisbus Citelis 12: 474
MAN NL 223: 205
MAN Lion's City: 121
Mercedes Citaro: 68
Mercedes Citaro facelift: 82
Scania Omnicity: 221

Articulated
Renault/Irisbus Agora L: 209
Irisbus Citelis 18: 156
Irisbus Crealis 18: 2
MAN Lion's City G: 157
MAN Lion's City GL: 16
Scania Omnicity: 11
Heuliez GX427 Hybrid: 1


----------



## Clery

Minato ku said:


> Heuliez GX317: 4
> Renault Agora: 1012
> Irisbus Agora line: 414
> Irisbus Citelis line: 884
> Irisbus Citelis 12: 474
> MAN NL 223: 205
> MAN Lion's City: 121
> Mercedes Citaro: 68
> Mercedes Citaro facelift: 82
> Scania Omnicity: 221
> 
> Articulated
> Renault/Irisbus Agora L: 209
> Irisbus Citelis 18: 156
> Irisbus Crealis 18: 2
> MAN Lion's City G: 157
> MAN Lion's City GL: 16
> Scania Omnicity: 11
> Heuliez GX427 Hybrid: 1


Is this only for the RATP company or does it also include Optile private consortium bus lines?


----------



## Minato ku

It is only for the RATP, there is a fan site that show all the bus fleet of the network.
It is updated very regulary.
The number I posted are the number and type of buses in May 2013.

http://www.busiloe.fr/

While they show it in the website, here I didn't included the minibuses.


----------



## Slartibartfas

I don't know the suburbs of Paris very well but it would be also possible to shut down certain streets for cars (or possibly transform them into mere local access streets with no transit function for cars to prevent traffic jams). And then there is also the possibility of doing it Stadtbahn like with underground parts, where necessary and separate way of right at level where possible.

As densities are fairly high, I could imagine however that also real subway lines could be justified. But again, one could try building them in addition to the existing light rail lines rather than as replacement. Tram lines could make sense as feeder lines for such a subway line.


----------



## Minato ku

The problem is that there been very few urban planning in suburbs, this lead to many small streets leading to medium streets (often not so much larger), the only big major avenues are the main roads leading to Central Paris.
Add to this fact that the streets are mainly residential, it is quite difficult to shut down traffic in a residential street, especially if there is no other streets to deviate traffic.

Building underground is an option but if we build long underground strech, in my opinion it is better to extend the existing metro network.
Metro would offer faster and more attractive trips with more connections and a higher choice of distinations in a lower commute time.

Paris tram network will grow for sure but I don't think that the network in 2030 will be much bigger than the network planned for 2020.


----------



## nanar

btw, there are in the whole suburbs of Paris some hundred of kilometers of streets which could accept trams lines, mainly on radials roads, but not only


----------



## domcovkid

*New trams on T7*


----------



## Minato ku

Thank you.
It is trams with the same design that will run in the T8.


----------



## Attus

^^ Same design, or same construct, too?


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

Minato ku said:


> Heuliez GX317: 4
> Renault Agora: 1012
> Irisbus Agora line: 414
> Irisbus Citelis line: 884
> Irisbus Citelis 12: 474
> MAN NL 223: 205
> MAN Lion's City: 121
> Mercedes Citaro: 68
> Mercedes Citaro facelift: 82
> Scania Omnicity: 221
> 
> Articulated
> Renault/Irisbus Agora L: 209
> Irisbus Citelis 18: 156
> Irisbus Crealis 18: 2
> MAN Lion's City G: 157
> MAN Lion's City GL: 16
> Scania Omnicity: 11
> Heuliez GX427 Hybrid: 1



Why RATP don't buy more hybrid buses?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ I have only specified if the bus is hybrid for models where there are only hybrid but it is true that there are very few hybrid buses in the RATP network.
There are also some hybrid Irisbus Citelis 12 and some hybrid MAN Lion's City.
More will come in the future.


----------



## Minato ku

Heuliez GX427 Hybrid, the only one in the RATP network in test in line 91.


----------



## Slartibartfas

TGV? Imposter! 




Minato ku said:


>


----------



## Minato ku

^^ The destination banner is scrolling in newer buses, so you can only see a partial view of the name on picture.
The full name of the western last stop of line 91 is "Montparnasse 2 Gare TGV" (Montparnasse 2 TGV station).


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ I know, but excuse me, I simply had to make that joke ...


----------



## Minato ku

No problem. 
I understood that it was a joke, I wrote this for people who may not understand why there is written TGV.


----------



## MK Tom

I like the new destination blinds on those buses. The old ones look really dated to me. They look like a calculator screen. 

Any news on T5?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ The T5 is now visible on network maps, all or almost all the rolling stock has been delivered.
The opening is planned for summer 2013.

We even have the route map
Scroll>>>








http://www.ratp.fr/informer/pdf/orienter/f_plan.php?&loc=reseaux&nompdf=t5&fm=gif


----------



## Minato ku

I have further information for the T5
Full test ride will begin in June 22.
Opening is planned for September.


----------



## HARTride 2012

T5 testing.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Great video, it is the first time I see the T5 in operation.
I live in the oposite side of Paris.


----------



## gambarini

LA Defense Station


----------



## gambarini

Porte De Versailles Station


----------



## Minato ku

gambarini said:


> LA Defense Station


A little mistake, it is not the RER A platforms, it is the platforms of Transilien L and U.


----------



## HARTride 2012

^^
I was about to say the same thing. I remember asking you about that subject and answered that the RER hall is separate from the LRT and Suburban hall.

While on the subject, would anyone happen to have a map of the La Defense station complex? Showing all of the rail lines that interchange there? ~ Metro, RER, Suburban, LRT?


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

Gare Saint-Lazare / Porte d'Orleans


----------



## alexandru.mircea

HARTride 2012 said:


> While on the subject, would anyone happen to have a map of the La Defense station complex? Showing all of the rail lines that interchange there? ~ Metro, RER, Suburban, LRT?


You want something more complex than the RATP interactive map?

Something interesting that I have seen in photos is the 3D model of ALL the metro/RER/train lines that form the underground station, to be found in the Musée de la Défense:


musée de la défense by PARIS2e, on Flickr


musée de la défense by PARIS2e, on Flickr

The full set, with all sorts of stuff that can be seen in the museum, here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/paris2e/sets/72157625094241753/


----------



## HARTride 2012

^^
HOLY MOLY! Can't even tell what is what.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

It reminds me of the internal structure of an Alien Queen / Predator head :lol:


----------



## gambarini

Minato ku said:


> A little mistake, it is not the RER A platforms, it is the platforms of Transilien L and U.


Ok, thanks


----------



## LaMingue

alexandru.mircea said:


> You want something more complex than the RATP interactive map?
> 
> Something interesting that I have seen in photos is the 3D model of ALL the *metro/RER/train lines* that form the underground station, to be found in the Musée de la Défense:
> 
> The full set, with all sorts of stuff that can be seen in the museum, here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/paris2e/sets/72157625094241753/


Sorry to contradict ^^, but this has to be the 3D model of La Défense *road *system. You can basically see the ring road circling the district, as well as the soon-to-be renovated "Rose de Strasbourg" interchange on the left.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ No problem, and I take your word for it. The blogger who posted the pics said it was the rail model, and I don't have the knowledge to tell true from false in this case.


----------



## Svartmetall

alexandru.mircea said:


> ^ No problem, and I take your word for it. The blogger who posted the pics said it was the rail model, and I don't have the knowledge to tell true from false in this case.


As a non-expert looking at the Google Maps images of the area, it does look far more conceivable to say that it is the road system. Nice diagram, but wow, talk about extensive road infrastructure!


----------



## Ledindondelafarce

It is the road system.


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

I have a little doubt about Translohr, to be used in new RATP T6 line:

Last year, Alstom acquired the transportation divison of Lohr Industries and I can't see the Translohr on in its portfolio in Alstom's website. Translohr isn't longer offered by the French company?


----------



## kyah117

They didn't put it on the official website, they've created a new website and a new brand called _"New TL"_

http://www.newtl.com/

I've seen somewhere on the internet that the first Translohr of the T6 is ready since a few days.


----------



## Minato ku

The opening of T5 on July 29.


----------



## MK Tom

Minato ku said:


> The opening of T5 on July 29.


Have people stopped using the route for walking and riding motorcycles now that the empty running has been going on for a while?


----------



## Minato ku

Noisy-le-Grand - Mont d'Est	
A new bus station with a new entrance to the RER station (line A)


----------



## Minato ku

The line opened today.


----------



## Busfotodotnl

The only thing i hope the tracks wont be like in Padova (Italy) within a few years.


----------



## dan72

Whats wrong with them? Is it a bumpy ride as the road surface is not flat


----------



## Minato ku

In Paris, the concrete surface is pretty heavy. 
They have strengthened the tracks to avoid problems like Clermont Ferrand or Padova.

Will it work? Only the times can say so.


----------



## Highcliff

T5 has small trains....three sectioned trains...


----------



## Woonsocket54

Looks like Paris is just about as segregated as large US cities if not worse, judging by the lack of European faces on the T5.


----------



## Winged Robot

Woonsocket54 said:


> Looks like Paris is just about as segregated as large US cities if not worse, judging by the lack of European faces on the T5.


hno: No, just no. Save those comments for another thread please.

Anyway, the tram line looks awesome Minatu Ku. It's nice to see public transit options continue to grow in the suburbs.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Woonsocket54 said:


> Looks like Paris is just about as segregated as large US cities if not worse, judging by the lack of European faces on the T5.


Lack of European faces doesn't necessarily mean segregation, it can also mean large incoming immigration. Of course if you go in an immigration hotspot you won't see many European faces, but from experience you may cross the road to the next suburb and the social fabric there can be very different (like, a beautifully mixed one). It varies even in the same suburb, the immigrants can live in the highrises while the neighbourhood of detached houses (a bit of garden + garage) right near them will be a typical (lower-)middle class residential area.
As I understand it the story in major American cities was that black and white communities split, whites fleeing towards the suburbs and the black / latino communities occupying the inner city. That doesn't recall Paris (or London) much, these places are arrival hotspots where (as an immigrant) you'll find cheap living, survival networks or even family members, but the point is to move out if you make it. There isn't much of a split as in American cities as it is a much more dynamic scenario, but that's how I see it.


----------



## Augusto

I second this. The "93" is indeed an arrival spot. During the past it has welcomed poor domestic immigrants from Brittany and Auvergne, and later from Portugal and former french Algeria (both-european and non-european algerian). 

By the way if you want to see "european faces" ;-) it is still possible as we now have new immigrants from Poland, Serbia, Ukraine and Portugal again because of their economy drop.


----------



## Minato ku

*Roissypole (CDG airport) bus station*
There is a a big diversity of bus network here.
8 bus networks and 30 lines 
CIF is the largest network here with 12 lines, the RATP operate 4 lines to Roissypole


















CIF


----------



## Minato ku

Filéo, it is a bus network working on demand in CDG airport area.


----------



## Minato ku

Transdev CEAT network: Heuliez GX 427 Hybrid 

Line 109: Porte d'Orleans - Fleury-Mérogis Prison
This is an express line between inner Paris and the largest prision in Europe 

I couldn't take a good picture of the front because the bus left the station as soon as I arrived. 








We also see a Mercedes Citaro of the RATP line 188 (the bus where I was).


----------



## CB31

*Les tramways en Ile-de-France​*


----------



## Minato ku

Bus traffic of inner Paris routes during the day.


----------



## Minato ku

Video on the opening day.


----------



## CB31

Great video Minato Ku, thanks for posting.

It looks like the tam goes really smoothly. :colgate:


----------



## Minato ku

^^ ErebosSan videos are always great








A great video by heisserreifen


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Minato ku said:


> Transdev CEAT network: Heuliez GX 427 Hybrid
> 
> Line 109: Porte d'Orleans - Fleury-Mérogis Prison
> This is an express line between inner Paris and the largest prision in Europe
> 
> I couldn't take a good picture of the front because the bus left the station as soon as I arrived.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We also see a Mercedes Citaro of the RATP line 188 (the bus where I was).


Why did they change RATP livery for a silver only one?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Because this is not an RATP bus, here this is Transdev CEAT.
The RATP is not the only transportation company in Paris area.
While in Paris and inner suburbs, the RATP is almost the only bus company, in outer suburbs there are many different companies.

This picture is in inner Paris (Porte d’Orléans) but this is an express line to the outer suburbs.


----------



## CB31

A very nice video about the arborization in the new line 7 of the Tram.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Note that the T7 is now visible in the line map of the metro line 7.


















Pictures by mss92 (Symbioz)


----------



## Minato ku

The TVM line is now equipped with MAN Lion's City G.
A mix of former MAN Lion's City G of the line 183 and 187 and new vehicules.




































Former Agora L of the TVM are now in the line 187. The line has lost in change.
Its recent stock was replaced by a older one.


----------



## Minato ku

Old RATP Renault SC 10.
This bus is not used for regular passenger traffic but for special occasions. These can be rented by companies (the case here).


----------



## HARTride 2012

^^
Neat!


----------



## Minato ku

Unusual buses on line 38.
The RATP line 38 has Renault Agora for main stock but since the closure of Montrouge bus depot near Porte d’Orléans for works, there are sometimes some Mercedes Citaro in the line.

With the closure of Montrouge bus depot, buses are parked in Bagneux bus depot.

You can see that this bus come from the line 216.








This bus is from the line 88.


----------



## fieldsofdreams

First time posting here, and I'm pretty impressed by how much buses around Paris (especially those operated by the RATF) have changed over time. More interesting is that certain bus types are used on certain bus lines, giving me an impression that the bus assignments are similar to those in NYC and Los Angeles.

A first question though: how come there are no foldable bike racks mounted in front of the buses?


----------



## Ledindondelafarce

The main reason is that it isn't needed. When you're to use your bike in Paris, there is no need to take the bus. It would probably be longer to do so. + it takes at least a minute to put your bike on the rack, so that's (one minute) * (the number of stops) lost.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Yeah that sounds like something for a train trip. I've never heard of buses customized to carry bikes, can you show us a pic of how they look like?


----------



## CNGL

Minato ku said:


> Unusual buses on line 38.
> The RATP line 38 has Renault Agora for main stock but since the closure of Montrouge bus depot near Porte d’Orléans for works, there are sometimes some Mercedes Citaro in the line.
> 
> With the closure of Montrouge bus depot, buses are parked in Bagneux bus depot.
> 
> You can see that this bus come from the line 216.
> 
> This bus is from the line 88.


Ah, bus route 38. It has a website where among other things lists other bus routes with the same number, including Zaragoza's one which if you look at the front of the bus or inside has different destinations :nuts:.


----------



## Minato ku

alexandru.mircea said:


> Yeah that sounds like something for a train trip. I've never heard of buses customized to carry bikes, can you show us a pic of how they look like?


It is a common feature in Northern America to have bike racks in the front of buses but I have never seen anything like that in Europe.









Picture by Secondarywaltz, wikipedia

So safety reason, I don't think this would be permitted here.
It can be dangerous in a collision with a pedestrian, cyclist or biker.
We already had to modify the front design of the T2 tram with the opening of the extension in 2009.


----------



## Falubaz

In Europe we sometimes exagerate with the so called 'safety'.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Ha, that looks mental, thanks Minato.


----------



## bagus70

HI, I'm a newcomer in here. I would like to know the route of Paris tram.

Thanks.


----------



## Bren

Here you are.


----------



## Minato ku

Note that the T5 opened two month ago and the T7 (phase 1: Villejuif Louis Aragon - Athis Mons) will open at the end of the year.
T6 and T8 should open at the end of 2014.


----------



## bagus70

No wonder why I didn't came across tramlines when I visited Paris....in 1999


----------



## Minato ku

All the tram lines are in the periphery, most people who visit Paris don't see the tram lines.
In 1999, there were only two tram lines, T1 which opened in 1992 and T2 in 1997.


----------



## gambarini

Minato ku said:


> All the tram lines are in the periphery, most people who visit Paris don't see the tram lines.
> In 1999, there were only two tram lines, T1 which opened in 1992 and T2 in 1997.


And T2 arrived in Porte De Versailles only in 2009...

Now you can see the T2 from the Acqua Boulevard for example...


----------



## VincentB_

Minato ku said:


> All the tram lines are in the periphery, most people who visit Paris don't see the tram lines.


In 1930, Paris had one of the biggest tram network in the world.

All was destroyed in only a few years, under pressure from the cars manufacturers. The last line was closed in 1937. One of the main lobbyists was Louis Renault... who was a major constructor of buses.

As a direct consequence of this decision, in 1940, when most of the buses ran out of fuel, the subway became the only transportation system in Paris during the war (even if some buses were later modified to use gas). 

I have pictures of this former network, if you're interested.


----------



## Minato ku

Good idea.


----------



## VincentB_

I'm currently in Paris then... I'm very far way from my library ; but i'll be back home in a few days.

But there's an article on the french Wikipedia about the former network.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Société_des_transports_en_commun_de_la_région_parisienne

The second picture shows a Type L car. It was the latest car built for the network... and it proved to be a failure. They were very light... and the chassis couldn't stand the weight of the motors. As a result, it began rapidly to fold : you can see it on the picture.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ Amazing, the tram network back then was as extensive as the metro network is now. Strange to see cables in Paris (in the vintage postcard images), but it was very minimal. 

This depot still exists, I live 100 metres away from it:


----------



## VincentB_

A few days ago, someone asked for pics of parisians trams during their construction (sorry, I'm not 100% sure it was here or on the subway thread... :dunno.

These one were taken last year in Aytré, near La Rochelle, in the Alstom factory, where the Citadis are built.

Just a little warning : there is an unique assembly line for all trams no matter for which city they are built. So some of the pics are of parisians trams, but other show trams built for Lyon, Dijon, and Montpellier (outside, several vehicules for Tunis, Dijon, and Rotterdam were ready for shipment).

Wiring :
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

The roof :
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

The floor :
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

The sides :
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

The articulation :
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Final assembly :
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

Modules after assembly: 
Uploaded with ImageShack.com
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

As you can see, the structure and the panels are painted only in white. The colored parts are not painted anymore but covered with thin colored sheets of plastic, glued : 
Uploaded with ImageShack.com

The trailers for the TGVs are built in the same factory.


----------



## gambarini

Test of







train.


----------



## RoccatArvo

Arrival of the tunnel boring machine at "Viroflay - Rive Gauche" station.






Arrival of the first Translohr STE6.


----------



## gambarini

Porte De Versailles - Le Milons Partie

























Pont Du Garigliano - Port De Versailles
(PRE FIRST EXTENSION)


----------



## Pierre50

T7 inauguration is foressen by Nov 16th 2013.
Tests are going on

I had chances to see some of them on Nov 7th between stations Orlytech and Porte de Rungis

Frequency of tests was around 6 minutes headway.


----------



## Pierre50

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/10780785254/


----------



## dimlys1994

Parisians, congratulations for new tram line and new Orly airport connection:banana::cheers:


----------



## Minato ku

Thank you.








*Opening*
Villejuif - Louis Aragon, the northern terminal with a connection to metro line 7 and numerous bus lines.
The opening was a secret with very few people aware, no, I joke. :lol:



























A tram waiting.

















This is the nicest tram rolling stock in Paris network.

















More to come...


----------



## Minato ku

Athis Mons, Porte d'Essonne, the southern terminal stop.
Right south of Orly, there isn't a lot of thing here, except a mall.
It will stay the terminal until 2018 and the extension to Juvisy a big RER station.

















Aéroport d'Orly












































More to come...


----------



## dimlys1994

Minato ku said:


> Aéroport d'Orly


I thought that Aeroport d'Orly is underground station and will have entrance from parking:lol:


----------



## Minato ku

Opening (third post)
Saarinen








La Belle Épine


----------



## gambarini

Inauguration de







à Villejuif


----------



## Minato ku

Paris tram network in early October 2012: 41.5 km, 70 stations
Paris tram network in November 2013: 82.3 km, 145 stations

The network doubled of size in one year and two new lines will open next year.


----------



## MK Tom

Knowing Paris tram lines I fully expect the T7 trams to carry on being that overcrowded!

Does anyone have any pictures of the tunnel section of T6 at the western end? I think this'll be the first tunnel on a Translohr line.


----------



## dimlys1994

MK Tom said:


> Knowing Paris tram lines I fully expect the T7 trams to carry on being that overcrowded!
> 
> Does anyone have any pictures of the tunnel section of T6 at the western end? I think this'll be the first tunnel on a Translohr line.


Yes, indeed. This will be the first translohr tunnel and Minato ironically said that will be the only tunnel of its kind. 

Anyway, here are photos of underground section from Tram 6 official website. I think that there are out-of-date photos, because TBM breakthrough is completed:
































































More photos can be found by this link


----------



## Minato ku

> *Alstom delivers its 1,500th Citadis tram for the opening of the new T7 line in the Ile-de-France*
> 18/11/2013
> 
> On Saturday November 16th, Alstom delivered its 1,500th Citadis tram on the occasion of the launch by STIF (Ile-de-France Transport Union) and the RATP of the Ile-de-France's tram line 7. The inauguration of the new line was held in the maintenance and the storage depot in Vitry-sur-Seine in the presence of Jean-Paul Huchon, President of STIF, Pierre Mongin, President of the RATP and Jérôme Wallut, Managing Director of Alstom Transport France.
> 
> Alstom has supplied a total of 19 32-metre long trams, each able to carry about 200 passengers, equivalent to more than three buses. The trams will operate on the T7 line, 11.2 km long, which links Villejuif (Val de Marne) with Athis-Mons (Essonne) and serves 18 stations. There are plans to extend the line further between Athis-Mons and Juvisy-sur-Orge (2018). STIF ordered the trams in February 2011 as part of a contract covering the supply of 39 Citadis trams for the T7 and T8 lines (Saint-Denis to Epinay and Villetaneuse[1]). The deal covered by the contract includes the potential for up to 70 trams.
> ...


http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2013/11/-alstom-delivers-its-1500th-citadis-tram-for-the-opening-of-the-new-t7-line-in-the-ile-de-france/


----------



## HARTride 2012

^^
That's a lot of LRV's!!!


----------



## gambarini

Arrive at Villejuif Louis Aragon


----------



## Minato ku

Collision between a bus (MAN Lion's City G) and a car.


----------



## MK Tom

Sorry for the slightly specific request, but are any Parisians able to get up to date pictures of the crossing between T8 and T1 at some point? Or T8 construction generally, particularly the depot, but I'm especially interested in where it crosses T1 in Saint-Denis.


----------



## dimlys1994

Minato ku said:


> Epinay-sur-Seine station
> The station will provide a transfer between the RER C, the Tram Express Nord and the T7.


Perhaps, you meant T8?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Yes, a typing error.
__________________________________

*Saint-Denis - Université, bus station*

It opened in 1998 with the metro station of the same name.
The bus station is served by the lines 154, 253, 255, 256, 268, 356 and 361 of the RATP network and the line 11 of CIF network







































































Entrance of the metro (line 13)









Saint-Denis - Université is at walking distance of the T5 at Guynemer station.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ looks like a bat's wings. :lol:


----------



## Minato ku

This bus line operated by the SNCF is a shuttle between Pereire - Levallois (RER C) and Pont Cardinet (Transilien L) stations.
Between 1988 and 1996, this shuttle was done by a railway link between the two stations, it was closed due to low traffic.









Here this bus is just above the track former Auteuil line, this part was used by Pereire -Cardinet railway shuttle.


----------



## Minato ku

La Belle Épine


----------



## Minato ku

RATP Bus line 91.
The stock is now dominated by Heuliez GX 427 Hybrid.

















I am inside the bus of the previous picture.


----------



## Swede

How do the hybrids run? I.e. noise levels, ride comfort, fuel consumption?
My town will get it's first hybrid buses this year and I'm hoping they start making them the standard quickly.


----------



## Minato ku

I don't know for fuel consumption but there is no difference for ride comfort and buses are a bit less noisy.


----------



## Minato ku

MAN Lion's City on line 76, rare sight.


----------



## Minato ku

Two Irisbus Citalis of the line 92.


----------



## redstarcastles

some photos from Portes de Versailles on 12 April 2014:


459 & 411 Portes de Versailles 12 April 2014


315 Portes de Versailles 12 April 2014


430 and Berlin wall at Portes de Versailles 12 April 2014

http://smu.gs/1mxe4Oz


----------



## Minato ku

New bus station for line 20 and 26 at Saint-Lazare


----------



## dimlys1994

Video from STIF in French about new Paris tram line 9:


----------



## Minato ku

Shelters have been installed at the new bus platforms for lines 20 and 26 at Saint-Lazare.


----------



## Woonsocket54

On 17 May 2014, I took Tram T4 from Aulnay-sous-Bois to Bondy.


----------



## Minato ku

Châtillon - Montrouge


----------



## alex2013

the trams in Paris are so nice and comfortable! I love them!


----------



## dimlys1994

Remark from Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-for-paris-line-4-automation.html?channel=542
> 
> _The board of Stif has also approved a €88m order for 15 Alstom Citadis Dualis tram-trains for use on the Epinay – Le Bourget section of the Tram Express North line, which is due to open in July 2016. The vehicles (pictured) will accommodate up to 251 passengers, 102 of them seated, and deliveries are due to start in Spring 2016._


----------



## _Night City Dream_

How long is that stock?


----------



## Minato ku

42m, the same length that the Citadis 402 of the T3.


----------



## redstarcastles

Buses:


4663 Portes de Versailles 12 April 2014


9850 Rue St Lazare 12 April 2014


1308 Pigalle 12 April 2014

http://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/


----------



## redstarcastles

Some more buses:


9985 Opera 12 April 2014


AW-017-GL Opera 12 April 2014


493-MSV-75 Opera 12 April 2014


7235 Opera 12 April 2014

http://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/


----------



## Minato ku

N63 (N for Noctilien, the night bus service in Paris)


----------



## Minato ku

Collision between a bus and a coach at Place de l’Opéra.
Damage is slight but some windows of the bus (MAN Lion's City Hybrid of the line 21) were broken, slightly injuring passengers.

Police officer is guiding the emergency service through the traffic








Firemen

















Traffic was temporarily blocked








But only for few minutes because the Place became a big mess.








Obviously it was during rush hour, among the crowd of office workers heading home.








Police officers are investigating


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Minato ku said:


> 42m, the same length that the Citadis 402 of the T3.


Thanks. Why are there so few doors?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ I don't know.
____________________________

*M6 replacement buses*

The metro line 6 is closed between Trocadéro and Montparnasse-Bienvenüe. during the months of July and August
There are replacement buses between Trocadéro and Cambronne.
Those buses don't go as far as Montparnasse, the RATP explains that this is because of the lack of space at Montparnasse, and the traffic.

Trocadéro

















Cambronne


----------



## Minato ku

An Irisbus Citelis of line 20 has burned, this morning. 
The fire was accidental, the engine has most likely overheated.
Nobody has been injured


----------



## HARTride 2012

^^
Yikes!


----------



## Minato ku

*Castor, replacement bus service of the Austerlitz - Invalides section of the RER C*
For the fist time, it is not the RATP which operates the replacement buses but Keolis.

Gare d'Austerlitz


----------



## Klausenburg

It's Irisbus _Citelis_ and Alstom _Citadis_


----------



## Minato ku

Klausenburg said:


> It's Irisbus _Citelis_ and Alstom _Citadis_


I know, this is big careless mistake. 

___________________________________

*T Zen 1*
BRT line in southeasthern outer suburbs, Sénart. 
The line uses Irisbus Crealis Neo.
The area around most of the line is still underdeveloped but development is underway.

Lieusaint - Moissy RER



























Château de la Barrière


















Carré Trait d'Union (there is a big shopping mall here, Carré Senart)



























Citalien, Citalien is a bus line between Senart and Melun


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

*Bus Pep's line 26: between Bussy-saint-Georges and Val d'Europe*


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

*Paladin 13 *: Antony RER <> Sceaux <> Bourg-La-Reine <> Robinson RER
(Gruau Microbus)


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

* Paladin 10 *: Antony RER <> Massy-Verrières RER <> Les Baconnets RER <> Antony RER 
EVOBUS MERCEDES-BENZ CITARO K

Les Baconnets RER station









Eglise-Mairie Station


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

Mercedes-Benz O520 Cito 
*Paladin 3* : Antony <> Les Baconnets RER
*Mont-Blanc Station*









*Paladin 6* : Sceaux Camberwell > Les Blagis > Pierre Curie > Robinson RER 
*Collège Thomas Masaryk*











*Paladin 8* : Antony RER <> Verrières Le Buisson
*Antony RER Station*


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

VANHOOL A308 

*Paladin 4* : Croix de Berny RER <> Châtenay-Malabry Cité-Jardins
*Montgolfier Station*









*Antony RER Station*









*Cimetière Nouveau Station*


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

Route des Petits Ponts









Come inside!


----------



## Minato ku

Along Boulevard Macdonald


----------



## 79007

A little picture taken by myself of Cergy-Pontoise _agglomération_ bus service near Cergy-Saint-Christophe station:


Le plus grand horloge d'Europe..., at Flickr


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

*Paris - Roissy CDG*


----------



## dimlys1994

Huge crowds at Chatillion, courtesy of France 3:
http://france3-regions.francetvinfo...ramway-nomme-t6-est-sur-ses-rails-612514.html


----------



## Minato ku

I was here! The weather was bad, it was cold and it rained so I'll take more pictures another day.








Châtillon-Montrouge



































Pavé Blanc








Robert Wagner


















Say good bye to the bus line 295 (Porte d'Orléans - Vélizy 2).
Its route is replaced by the tram T6 and bus line 388 (extented from Châtillon-Montrouge to Porte d’Orléans).


----------



## dimlys1994

So, Minato, have you got any first impressions?


----------



## Minato ku

Well, as always with the Translohr the ride is not as smooth as a steel tram but this is still more comfortable than a bus.
Unlike the T5, the rolling stock is long (46 m).
The ride is neither slow but neither very fast, it has quite sharp curves between Pavé Blanc and Vélizy 2 where it goes back to a more straight route.
Not everything was done in the stations, some still don't have their names displayed on signs but this is better than the opening of the T7 when most stations had no sign at the opening. :lol:

My impressions are rather positive.


----------



## Minato ku

Video of the T6's inauguration at Châtillon-Montrouge by ErebosSan


----------



## Tramwayman

I will never understand the reason why Paris wants that shitty Translohr? Why? Do they want public transport Zoo, only to say oh look we have a rubber tired tram trolley bus hybrid orgasm thing   

Slow, narrow, low space, riding quality very poor, shitty thing that alwas need cleaning the guiding rail.

Two idiot French cities, Caen and Nany already want to change to Tram, although they have another idiotic thinc not Translohr but almost the same rubbish. A lot of money to built and maintain and now they want Tram hahaha


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ hno:

Oh and BTW the hybrid thing they chose in Caen and Nancy has nothing to do with the Translohr which, whether you personally like this fact or not, is a true tramway.

Just like for example the rubber-tyred metros are true trains/metros as well, despite their tyres.

And if they chose the Translohr for the T6 line in Paris that's because it's a much more efficient system in climbing slopes than classic trams, knowing that this line crosses very hilly areas.


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

*Châtillon Montrouge -- Vélizy Villacoublay
*
*Clamart *(Avenue Charles de Gaulle)









*Vélizy* (Avenue de l'Europe)









*Vélizy* (Avenue de l'Europe)


----------



## 00Zy99

What about Translohr makes them good at hill-climbing? Conventional streetcars have been known to climb grades of up to 29% (29-Fineview line in Pittsburgh).


----------



## Svartmetall

Tramwayman said:


> I will never understand the reason why Paris wants that shitty Translohr? Why? Do they want public transport Zoo, only to say oh look we have a rubber tired tram trolley bus hybrid orgasm thing
> 
> Slow, narrow, low space, riding quality very poor, shitty thing that alwas need cleaning the guiding rail.
> 
> Two idiot French cities, Caen and Nany already want to change to Tram, although they have another idiotic thinc not Translohr but almost the same rubbish. A lot of money to built and maintain and now they want Tram hahaha


I dislike the tone of this post. Please keep the discussion respectful as to the merits of each individual system. It is a valid discussion to have, but when one comes to the discussion with such a disrespectful tone, it makes proper, structured discussion impossible to have. 

Thanks.


----------



## Tramwayman

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ hno:
> 
> Oh and BTW the hybrid thing they chose in Caen and Nancy has nothing to do with the Translohr which, whether you personally like this fact or not, is a true tramway.
> 
> Just like for example the rubber-tyred metros are true trains/metros as well, despite their tyres.
> 
> And if they chose the Translohr for the T6 line in Paris that's because it's a much more efficient system in climbing slopes than classic trams, knowing that this line crosses very hilly areas.


:nuts::nuts::nuts: >Oh my god what slopes? hahah how many % are this slopes? Modern trams handle slopes very well 9% in Jerusalem, 11% in Augsburg, 10% in Tenerifa, Bombardier Flexity trams and Citadis trams run on this lines so please Paris doesn't have any slope close to that.

Translohrs can handle slopes up tp 13% as their brochure says that, well a normal tram can handle this too. So I do not see any reason for building that crapy thing.

And pleas it is not a tram, Tram is what runs on rails!!!!!!!


----------



## Tramwayman

Svartmetall said:


> I dislike the tone of this post. Please keep the discussion respectful as to the merits of each individual system. It is a valid discussion to have, but when one comes to the discussion with such a disrespectful tone, it makes proper, structured discussion impossible to have.
> 
> Thanks.


Buy the way I am not discussing anything, just saying what I think about Translohr and that's it. If that's disrespectful to the Translohrs they can sew me for offending their rubber tires, narrow body, and bumpy ride :nuts:


----------



## Minato ku

donquichotedelmedina said:


> *Châtillon Montrouge -- Vélizy Villacoublay
> *
> *Clamart *(Avenue Charles de Gaulle)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Vélizy* (Avenue de l'Europe)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



Both picturess are in Châtillon, Avenue de Verdun.​


----------



## parcdesprinces

Tramwayman said:


> Oh my god what slopes? [...] Paris doesn't have any slope close to that.


Wrong! You'll be surprised to learn that the T6 line has and will have several slopes up to 10%.  (that's why, among other reasons, they chose the Translohr for this line...oh and sorry if they didn't ask for your expertise before making such a choice :laugh:..so, sorry for you again but deal with it, dear)



Tramwayman said:


> a normal tram can handle this too.


Despite your so called certainties (so nicely expressed BTW hno, some Citadis cannot so easily do so apparently, for example on the T3 line in Paris, near the Pte de Versailles Station there is a 7% (only ) slope on the line... and you know what about that? Several times on rainy days, I saw this 42m-long Citadis 402 tram full of passengers (myself included) making two attempts to climb this 'little' 7% slope (I admit it was quite funny to experiment).




Tramwayman said:


> And pleas it is not a tram, Tram is what runs on rails!!!!!!!


:blahblah: et:




Anyway.... hno:


----------



## Svartmetall

Tramwayman said:


> Buy the way I am not discussing anything, just saying what I think about Translohr and that's it. If that's disrespectful to the Translohrs they can sew me for offending their rubber tires, narrow body, and bumpy ride :nuts:


You're now being disingenuous. You're just throwing out opinions as fact. Whilst you can have an opinion, it is best to phrase it as such and do so in a constructive manner. 

Final warning, reply nicely without expletives and without rudeness or don't post here on this subject. Thank you.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

I remember taking the bus once (2-3 years ago) on this route, from Porte d'Orléans to the Clamart hospital, when the works were already started. There were quite a few hilly bits, I'll be curious to see if I can identify them on Street View.


----------



## Minato ku

The south of Chatillon is pretty hilly. I think you are looking for Avenue de Verdun.


----------



## Tramwayman

parcdesprinces said:


> Wrong! You'll be surprised to learn that the T6 line has and will have several slopes up to 10%.  (that's why, among other reasons, they chose the Translohr for this line...oh and sorry if they didn't ask for your expertise before making such a choice :laugh:..so, sorry for you again but deal with it, dear)
> 
> 
> 
> Despite your so called certainties (so nicely expressed BTW hno, some Citadis cannot so easily do so apparently, for example on the T3 line in Paris, near the Pte de Versailles Station there is a 7% (only ) slope on the line... and you know what about that? Several times on rainy days, I saw this 42m-long Citadis 402 tram full of passengers (myself included) making two attempts to climb this 'little' 7% slope (I admit it was quite funny to experiment).
> 
> :blahblah: et:
> 
> 
> Anyway.... hno:


I do not have to deal with anything, I do not even live there, do not have to ride them.

Hahaha Citadis trams are rubbish, everyone knows that, they are only beautiful, but technically they're nothing, a complete rubbish. Apparentely they need stronger trams on T3 how come they didn't think that    

Although Citadis Trams ruun in Jerusalem on 9% slopes quite easily, as well as in Tenerifa on 10% slopes, the whole Tenerifa is a city on hills. 

If a tram in France can not handle 10% that is problem for France, and their tramway production, Bombardier Flexity's in Augsburg handle 11% and they are 43 meters long.

Is that an excuse to construct a translohr system? they're freaking narrow 2.20 mm no space in them. Bumpy ride, and that roller coaster guiding system that need special care to maintain. And they are slower than trams.

So please do not tell me that Paris had to constract that because there was no other way, when Citadis trams are so bad they can buy trams from Bombardier which are way cooler then all the production of Alstom. :lol:


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## RoccatArvo

Tramwayman said:


> And pleas it is not a tram, Tram is what runs on rails!!!!!!!


It's a tram on tyres. Except the wheels and the bogies, the rest is very similar to a classic tram.


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## Tramwayman

RoccatArvo said:


> It's a tram on tyres. Except the wheels and the bogies, the rest is very similar to a classic tram.


:lol::lol: Tram on tires 

It is Translohr not a Tram that's why it has name TRANSLOHR. a completely new mode of transport.

Let's call then trolleybuses a bus with horns :lol:
Or trackless bus with horns 

Let's call bus, tram on tires without catenary and electricity.

what is wrong with people, for AMERICANS everything that runs on rails is TRAIN. :lol:


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## Silly_Walks

RoccatArvo said:


> - Trams have a pantograph and overhead lines. The Translohr too.


So do trolleybuses. 



> - Translohr trams are bidirectionnal, like Citadis trams and Flexity trams.


Bidirectionality does not a tram make. A car can drive backwards. That does not make it a tram.
Many trams are not bidirectional, but they are still trams.
Many metros are bidirectional, but they are not trams.



> - The Translohr has a permanent guiding, like normal trams.


Trams have rails on which they run. Translohr does not. It has a guide rail which merely guides it. Actual running is done on tires. 



> - The Translohr can be 46m long. In a lot of countries, bus can't overstep 30 meters. In France, the limit is 25 meters.


Length does not a tram make. I once held hands with a long line of people. This did not turn us into a tram.

The longest road trains are over 50 meters in length. This does not make them trams... or actual trains.



> - The Translohr is electric, like any other tram.


So is a trolleybus, many trains, metros and a Tesla Roadster.



> - The GLT is subjected to trafic regulation. The Translohr is subject to the same regulation than other trams.


The law does not a tram make. For the law, men and women are TREATED the same. But that does not magically turn men into women and vice versa.
In certain countries, people on roller skates are subject to the same traffic regulations as bicyclists. That does not turn the roller skates into bicycles.



> Except the wheels and the bogies, the Translohr is like the other trams.


And the rails, and the fact that it isn't a tram.

Except for the bark and the leash, a dog is a cat.


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## Skalka

This last post by Silly Walks contains a lot of unintended hilarity, just wanted to say.

If you ask me, Translohr is what happens when tokenism gets built as a vehicle. It's supposed to appeal to passenger psychology like a real tramway, i.e. special right-of-way, station design, integration into urban landscape etc. in order to win potential passengers for public transport that otherwise feel themselves to be above riding a bus with all these suspicious strangers, yet for some reason the city employing it finds an excuse not to install a proper tramway (topography, cheaper installment, local jobs, Grande Nation vanity) that usually seems a bit far-fetched to name it cautiously. 

I may be ready to buy the argument that combined transportation is something that's best to be avoided as any transfer makes public transport more and more unattractive and Translohr may therefore be a blessing for hill-valley transportation, but then again, why not resort to Frisco-style cable cars?



> In Paris, the governement was afraid that Lohr would go bankrupt because of a lack of orders. And according to the Cour des Comptes (a public but independant and highly regarded Council which examines the expenses of the administrations and public organisations), the RATP only wanted to build as many lines as possible very quickly, no matter the technology used, to face up to a possible incoming competition from private operators.


This. Say what you want about the purity of motive, but this is the closest thing to a qualified reason to build Translohr in the suburbs of Paris. RATP essentially prepared for "war" and needed every "man".


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## [email protected]

The map of the tram network has been updated on Carto Métro:
http://carto.metro.free.fr/documents/CartoTramParis.v2.4.pdf


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## dimlys1994

^^Looking on the map, the most unusual tram stop of T6 is Georges Millaby - it has long platform, and on one half of platform stops westbound trams, on the other - eastbound


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## [email protected]

^^ It's here...


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## VincentB_

@Skalka : apart the fact as i think that the Translohr IS closer to a tram than to trolleybus (from a user perspective, no doubt, i'm in a tram !), Silly walk made another mistake when he said that "The law does not a tram make".

At least in France, this is false. When a vehicle is involved in an accident, it's very important to legally define what the vehicule is, because the law applicable to trains and trams is not the same as the one applicable to car, trucks, or busses (it's much more easier for the victim to obtain a compensation in the second case). From this point of view, the Translohr is now considered as a tram.


@00Zy99 : the RATP does not think his network this way. That's the same thing with the subway : all lines are considered as isolated from the other, no tracks are shared. Sound probably strange but in fact, it's much more easier to manage : when there's a problem on a line, it has no effect on the other.


@dimlys1994 & [email protected] : right, that's is really curious ! But after all it's not a bad idea : the available space was clearly scarce, and there was only enough place to built a single platform, probably too narrow to receive passengers for both directions...


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## Minato ku

VincentB_ said:


> the RATP does not think his network this way. That's the same thing with the subway : all lines are considered as isolated from the other, no tracks are shared. Sound probably strange but in fact, it's much more easier to manage : when there's a problem on a line, it has no effect on the other.


All line of Paris metro are isolated in commercial service but tracks of all lines are connected to each other.
A train can move from a line to an other, mainteance can be in a depot located in an other line.

MF 77 have their heavy maintenance done in Saint-Ouen at the end of the line 4.
Trains of line 7, 8 and 13 have to use the tracks of line 4. (Note that line 4 is rubber tired while line 7, 8 and 13 are steel)



Silly_Walks said:


> Bidirectionality does not a tram make. A car can drive backwards. That does not make it a tram.
> Many trams are not bidirectional, but they are still trams.
> Many metros are bidirectional, but they are not trams.
> 
> Trams have rails on which they run. Translohr does not. It has a guide rail which merely guides it. Actual running is done on tires.


You forgot something, Translohr can't run without its guide rail.
This is why it is not a bus or trolleybus.

This how I see it.

Train: vehicule running on guided infrastructure are dependent on this infrastructure. Monorail or Maglev are train even if they does not run on usual rail tracks.
Metro: Urban train running on segregated way, often underground
Tram: train operating at street level with intersection with traffic.

Except the fact it does not run on usual track, Translohr is everything like a conventional tram.


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## dimlys1994

Another excellent video from ErebosSan:


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## intres

Définition de Tramway par le dictionnaire Larousse 
_in French and a translation in English:_
Tramway : 
nom masculin
mot anglais de _tram_, rail et _way_, voie
définitions :
1/ Autrefois, chemin de fer établi sur la chaussée d’une route ou d’une rue au moyen de rails sans saillie (rails à ornière) ; voie ferrée d’intérêt local établie en totalité ou en partie sur la voie publique ou en accotement de route.
Aujourd’hui, chemin de fer électrique destiné au transport urbain et suburbain des voyageurs et implanté en totalité ou en partie sur la chaussée des rues empruntées.
2/ Véhicule qui circule sur ces voies (Abréviation : tram).

1/Formerly, *railway *established on the carriageway of a road or a street by means of rails without projection (grooved rails); railway of local interest established altogether or partially on public roads or in the verge of road.
Today, *railway *with electric traction intended for the public and suburban transport of the travelers and implanted altogether or partially on the roadway of the borrowed streets.
2/vehicle which circulates on these rails (Abbreviation: tram).


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## JustinB

RoccatArvo said:


> In Caen, the TVR has a licence plate. There is a guiding rail on the whole line, but the vehicles must often go on the road when there is a problem on the line. :lol:


Yep! You're correct! My bad. I didn't realize the Caen vehicle also had a auxilliary diesel engine. 

What a crappy system!


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## dan72

Where the new t8 runs along that large road, which looks like 2 lanes in each direction now, how many lanes was it before. If the number of traffic lanes has been reduced significantly how did they justify it and what has happened to the traffic thatw as once there? Have people got out of cars onto trams or is there a major traffic problem now


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## Minato ku

The road has 3 lanes in each direction, including two bus lanes in each side, some major intersections had underpass.








In the heart of Epinay, there was a central busway.


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## RoccatArvo

Silly_Walks said:


> So do trolleybuses.


No. Most of trolleybus have trolley poles.




Silly_Walks said:


> Bidirectionality does not a tram make. A car can drive backwards. That does not make it a tram.
> Many trams are not bidirectional, but they are still trams.
> Many metros are bidirectional, but they are not trams.


Standard buses are not bidirectionnal.


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## Silly_Walks

VincentB_ said:


> Silly walk made another mistake when he said that "The law does not a tram make".
> 
> At least in France, this is false. When a vehicle is involved in an accident, it's very important to legally define what the vehicule is, because the law applicable to trains and trams is not the same as the one applicable to car, trucks, or busses (it's much more easier for the victim to obtain a compensation in the second case). From this point of view, the Translohr is now considered as a tram.


I made no mistake, and clearly explained this. Just cause one type of vehicle is treated the same according to the law, does not turn it into another type of vehicle. A translohr is treated the same as tram according to the law, but that does not make it a tram. A male is treated the same as a female according to the law, but that does not make him a female.


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## Silly_Walks

Skalka said:


> This last post by Silly Walks contains a lot of unintended hilarity


You have misjudged my intentions


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## Silly_Walks

Minato ku said:


> You forgot something, Translohr can't run without its guide rail.
> This is why it is not a bus or trolleybus.


I did not forget that. That fact just doesn't make it a tram.



> Train: vehicule running on guided infrastructure are dependent on this infrastructure. Monorail or Maglev are train even if they does not run on usual rail tracks.
> Metro: Urban train running on segregated way, often underground
> Tram: train operating at street level with intersection with traffic.
> 
> Except the fact it does not run on usual track, Translohr is everything like a conventional tram.


You say a tram is a train, and then go on to say a bus must therefore be a tram.

A translohr is something completely different. It is a trolleybus guided by rail. No way does that make it train, and according to YOUR definition, since it is not a train, it is also not a tram.


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## Silly_Walks

RoccatArvo said:


> No. Most of trolleybus have trolley poles.


True, but as there are trams using trolley poles, my point still stands. Getting electricity from suspended wires does not make something a tram, because then a trolleybus would be a tram, and most trains would be trams.



> Standard buses are not bidirectionnal.


Neither are many, many trams. My point still stands: bidirectionality does not turn something into a tram.


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## RoccatArvo

Silly_Walks said:


> True, but as there are trams using trolley poles, my point still stands. Getting electricity from suspended wires does not make something a tram, because then a trolleybus would be a tram, and most trains would be trams.


Don't deform my words. I didn't said it was a tram because it uses electricity.



Neither are many, many trams. My point still stands: bidirectionality does not turn something into a tram.[/QUOTE]

Except the tyres, everything with the Translohr is like a normal tram. The Translohr is a different kind of tram, whatever you think.


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## Silly_Walks

RoccatArvo said:


> Don't deform my words. I didn't said it was a tram because it uses electricity.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither are many, many trams. My point still stands: bidirectionality does not turn something into a tram.


Except the tyres, everything with the Translohr is like a normal tram. The Translohr is a different kind of tram, whatever you think.[/QUOTE]

Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.


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## 00Zy99

Why can't Translohr run without it's guide rail? What makes it so "tram-y" (technically speaking) as opposed to the TVR?


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## VincentB_

00Zy99 said:


> Why can't Translohr run without it's guide rail? What makes it so "tram-y" (technically speaking) as opposed to the TVR?


Because of this (source: wikipedia)...

Translohr :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Guidance_system.jpg?uselang=fr

TVR :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TVRGeleiding.svg?uselang=fr

Because of its configuration, the TVR can easily run without its rail. But there's a serious drawback : it's much more prone to derailment than the Translohr.


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## Gros Matou

Silly_Walks said:


> Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.


Using your same arguments, I could demonstrate that the the MP 89 is not a metro, just because it has rubber wheels.

You know, the homologation procedure is practically the same for the Translohr and steel wheeled trams. The objectives of both systems are the same, the conditions in which they are working are the same, the capacities are roughly same. The Translohr is designed and built to be used just like a tram : even its internal structure follows the same design of every other low floor tram. It cannot be operated like a trolleybus and is certainly not considered as a road vehicle by the competent authorities. In fact, the tracks used by Translohr systems are zoned as railways by the authorities.


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## Silly_Walks

Gros Matou said:


> Using your same arguments, I could demonstrate that the the MP 89 is not a metro, just because it has rubber wheels.


What constitutes a metro, aka rapid transit, is an entirely different discussion, as this is mostly defined by characteristics such as exclusive right of way, no level crossings, etc., and far less by the type of vehicle used. Most often this is a steel-on-steel EMU, but it can also be monorail, maglev or rubber-tyred vehicles, etc.

That discussion is better suited for a Metro forum, as the definition of LRT, Translohr, etc., are enough to keep this forum occupied.


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## RoccatArvo

Silly_Walks said:


> Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.


Stop your bad faith. You say that the Translohr isn't a tram just because it has tyres. In the same time, you claim that it's a trolleybus for the same reason. 

The Translohr has a pantograph, like any other tram. Trolleybuses have trolley poles.
The Translohr can be bidirectionnal. A trolleybus is not bidirectionnal.
The Translohr is driven like a tram. A trolleybus is driven with a steering wheel, like any other bus.
The Translohr is subject to tram regulations. A trolleybus is subject to road regulations.

The fact is that the Translohr is NOT a trolleybus.


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## Silly_Walks

RoccatArvo said:


> Stop your bad faith. You say that the Translohr isn't a tram just because it has tyres. In the same time, you claim that it's a trolleybus for the same reason.
> 
> The Translohr has a pantograph, like any other tram. Trolleybuses have trolley poles.
> The Translohr can be bidirectionnal. A trolleybus is not bidirectionnal.
> The Translohr is driven like a tram. A trolleybus is driven with a steering wheel, like any other bus.
> The Translohr is subject to tram regulations. A trolleybus is subject to road regulations.
> 
> The fact is that the Translohr is NOT a trolleybus.


My point exactly. It is not a trolleybus, it is not a tram, it is a translohr.

All the other points you listed here I already recounted.


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## Minato ku

Silly_Walks said:


> Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.


Translohr is much closer to a conventional tram than it is of a trolleybus.
You can't suggest otherwise.


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## Yak79

If you want a rational classification, you'll have to choose a scientific criterion: transportation engineering uses driver's tasks in order to divide “vehicles” in homogeneous groups. Going from A to B, a driver has to do a lot of activities that we usually imply with the word *to drive* and that activities can be grouped in main categories:

Navigation, aka choosing the route
the driver is free to choose which route he follows ► INDIVIDUAL TRANSPORT, either private or public (TAXI)
routes are fixed, settled by a superior authority ► MASS TRANSIT

Control, aka choosing the trajectory
there's a steering wheel whit which the driver can control the direction ► BUSES, TROLLEYBUSES, ETC.
the vehicle is constrained by a physical bond, without any steering device (guided transit system) ► TRAM, TRAIN, MONORAILS, ETC.

Drive, aka choosing speed, acceleration, braking, and interacting whit other vehicles
the driver lead the vehicle under is own responsibility (visual march) ► TRAM, LIGTH RAIL, ETC.
the driver (when present) follows instructions the regulator gives him (signaling) ► TRAIN, METRO, ETC.

Each time a system fits partly in a group and partly in another, you have to put it in the lower group, that is the heavier from driver's perspective (hence tram-trains are in the end TRAM, although adapted to railway requirements). Metros systems are a subset of trains, regardless which kind vehicles they employ (conventional metro, rubber tire metro, monorails, cable metro like in Perugia or maglev like in Nagoya).
From this point of view there's no way you can deny that Translohr is a tram, even if you abominate it from the bottom of your heart.

Debating about the nature of Translohr is something that pops up in every thread related with this rubber-tire tram, and obviously I read a lot of theory, but none of them is at the same time universal (a legal criterion can attribute a system in different categories depending on the country), significant (criteria based on structural or mechanical features have little or no impact in service quantities) and rational (I assume personal preferences or unmeasurable aspect are absurd criteria, but not everyone thinks so:bash. At last, the assumption “tram or train = steel wheels and tracks” is completely ineffective, neither sufficient (also bridge cranes transport things going on a pair of rails, but obviously they aren't freight trains) nor necessary ( maglev uses rails only when is starting or stopping, otherwise literally flies some millimeters over them, but a sane man will never state that for this reason maglevs are to be regarded as aircrafts that take off and land on rail, like planes - rubber tires on ground - and seaplanes - floats on water).


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## Minato ku

Thank you. 

This is where is Translohr by using these criteria.

Navigation, aka choosing the route
routes are fixed, settled by a superior authority ► MASS TRANSIT

Control, aka choosing the trajectory
the vehicle is constrained by a physical bond, without any steering device (guided transit system) ► TRAM, TRAIN, MONORAILS, ETC.

Drive, aka choosing speed, acceleration, braking, and interacting whit other vehicles
the driver lead the vehicle under is own responsibility (visual march) ► TRAM, LIGTH RAIL, ETC.


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## Svartmetall

This kind of semantic argument is rather dull to be honest. Debating the merits of a mode is all well and good when backed up with actual fact such as performance differences etc from proper studies.


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## Yak79

Svartmetall said:


> This kind of semantic argument is rather dull to be honest. Debating the merits of a mode is all well and good when backed up with actual fact such as performance differences etc from proper studies.


I'm sorry, but you can't define my post “semantic argument”: the classification system I exposed is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria have a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation *capacity*, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. Without any proper study, you can easily conclude that, since the vehicle serves as a tram (= a Translohr route belongs at the same capacity class), therefore it is certainly a tram.


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## Svartmetall

Yak79 said:


> I'm sorry, but you can't define my post “semantic argument”: the classification system I exposed is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria have a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation *capacity*, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. Without any proper study, you can easily conclude that, since the vehicle serves as a tram (= a Translohr route belongs at the same capacity class), therefore it is certainly a tram.


No, I wasn't referring to you. You brought clarity to the whole debacle above. I'm talking about the plague of a discussion that occurred previously. 

Thank you for your contribution.


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## Minato ku

Well, at least, opening a Translohr is a good thing to increase the activity of a thread about trams. 
Very few activity during the previous months and then four pages in few days.

I think I should repost pictures about the opening T8 yesterday to not forget it because it is already several pages back.



Minato ku said:


> After the T6 last saturday, the 9th parisian tram line opened today.
> Say hello to the T8.
> Unfortunately, the opening was at 4 pm when the sun begins to set.
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> The switch had a dysfunction, the driver had to move it manually.
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## 00Zy99

I'd like to see pictures of the connecting link to the T8 shops. That little single track stretch has to be one of the most scenic parts of the Paris mass transit system, in my opinion.


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## Minato ku

Mercedes Citaro G C2 on line 170
This line has just become articulated and and received the first articuled Citaro of the RATP network.


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## Minato ku

Saint-Denis - Gare
The only place where two tram lines cross each other in Paris' tram network.



































Tracks of the T1 like on the tracks of the T8, they built the beginning of a connection.









Note that the T1 and T8 have different names, T1 station is called "Gare de Saint-Denis" and the T8 station is called "Saint-Denis - Gare". :nuts:
I much prefer the name "Gare de Saint-Denis".


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## 00Zy99

Don't you mean T8? You keep referring to T7 here.


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## Minato ku

I have not yet realized that we have a T8.


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## Skalka

VincentB_ said:


> @Skalka : apart the fact as i think that the Translohr IS closer to a tram than to trolleybus (from a user perspective, no doubt, i'm in a tram !), Silly walk made another mistake when he said that "The law does not a tram make".
> 
> At least in France, this is false. When a vehicle is involved in an accident, it's very important to legally define what the vehicule is, because the law applicable to trains and trams is not the same as the one applicable to car, trucks, or busses (it's much more easier for the victim to obtain a compensation in the second case). From this point of view, the Translohr is now considered as a tram.


That's sensible. In Germany, we only have two sorts of work rules: EBO for heavy rail and BOStrab for any other track-guided system. And something like Translohr is indeed a track-guided system, just like any other tram, monorail, subway etc. And I guess that any vehicle running under BOStrab auspices will be treated the same in an accident.




> @00Zy99 : the RATP does not think his network this way. That's the same thing with the subway : all lines are considered as isolated from the other, no tracks are shared. Sound probably strange but in fact, it's much more easier to manage : when there's a problem on a line, it has no effect on the other.


The lack of a network approach will be due to geography rather than orthodoxy. The lines needn't be innerconnected to such a degree in the beginning because they serve *a tangential demand*, it's like bitching about a Versailles tramway and a Saint-Denis tramway not being interconnected because categorism demanded for only one true Francilien tramway to exist. 

Tramlink in London merely serves Croydon too, so what? If tangential network fringes mature enough, they may indeed interconnect for synergic effects and resemble an orbital network on paper, but they *don't serve an orbital purpose per se*. It's more about the general accessibility of said fringes and whereas the improved capacity and visibility of LRT vis-à-vis busses does its part for a better functionality of the fringes on their own, they will mostly live from being feeder lines to rapid transit and that's often enough to make them viable. The desired orbital purpose will be the job of future Métro line 15 of Grand Paris Express project.

In essence, the fringes of the metropoles are populous enough to deserve stand-alone tram systems. Big cities like (East) Berlin and Vienna have an average of four full-fledged depots, so let's say that 400,000 denizens is the maximum acceptable threshold for a depot to urge remote lines to take a longer ride instead of building an additional depot that better distributes the waggons throughout a city. Splitting said "ballooned" depot in two means that 200,000 denizens make a good starting point in order to create a local isolated tram network with its own infrastructure. And these 200,000 denizens should easily be achieved in a small stretch of banlieue, right?


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## Minato ku

Weekday ridership of the tram lines according a document distributed by STIF during the opening of T6








179,000 passangers







196,000 passengers







181,000 passengers







90,000 passengers







34,300 passnegers







49,000 passengers







23,000 passengers

Prevision







82,000 passengers







60,400 passengers







70,000 passengers







25,000 passengers

The ridership of the T7 is rather disappointing, I hope it will get better in the future, especially with the extension to Juvisy.
They hope 40,000 passengers in this extension.
The line that the T7 replaces was linking Villejuif Louis Aragon with Juvisy.

The T10 seems rather useless, this is more like a gift to make happy some suburban mayors (including the President of the general council of the powerful Hauts-de-Seine department).

With the two planned extensions of the T1 would have 110,000 passengers. With the opening of those, the line T1 will be cut in two.
The extension of the T3b would have 76,000 passengers
The extension of the T4 would have 37,000 passengers


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## Minato ku

Saint-Denis - Porte de Paris

















Delaunay-Belleville


























César

















Rose Bertin


----------



## Minato ku

Still three years or more to wait before the opening of the first section. This is slow.
_____________________________________

Opéra - 4 Septembre


----------



## parcdesprinces

Minato ku said:


> The big change with the new shelters is the exterior countdown clocks.


And the pretty useful universal USB port on which you can charge your smartphone. :yes:


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Wow, now that's a nice touch. I've not seen that at all anywhere I've travelled.


----------



## 00Zy99

Is there a diagram of the new shelters? I can't find the countdown clocks in the pictures (they're too busy) and I'm not sure where the displays are.


----------



## I(L)WTC

Minato ku said:


> Still three years or more to wait before the opening of the first section. This is slow.
> _____________________________________
> 
> Opéra - 4 Septembre


So much invasive.


----------



## Minato ku

00Zy99 said:


> Is there a diagram of the new shelters? I can't find the countdown clocks in the pictures (they're too busy) and I'm not sure where the displays are.


You can't see it because they are not yet operative in most of the new stops.


----------



## Bren

Tramway T3b extension










http://cdn-lejdd.ladmedia.fr/var/lejdd/storage/images/media/images/wiklipedia/10870124-1-fre-FR/Wiklipedia.jpg


----------



## dan72

Is it under construction now, will this be the last exstension of the 3a and 3b line


----------



## nanar

> will this be the last exstension of the 3a and 3b line


Do you ask ? 
Probably for some years, yes I guess, because the inhabitants of the west part of Paris (XVI) don't really wish the tram


----------



## nanar

to delete


----------



## Minato ku

dan72 said:


> Is it under construction now, will this be the last exstension of the 3a and 3b line





nanar said:


> Do you ask ?
> Probably for some years, yes I guess, because the inhabitants of the west part of Paris (XVI) don't really wish the tram


Don't forget the extension to Porte Maillot on the T3b.
The 17th arrondissement is in favor of this part, the local mayor even regretted that it was not done at the same time as the extension to Porte d’Asnières.

For the remainder, I think that we will have to wait a long time.
The need for a line here is not as strong as the other parts and the residents are rather against the tram.


----------



## Suburbanist

Minato ku said:


> The need for a line here is not as strong as the other parts and *the residents are rather against the tram.*


Why?

Wouldn't it make sense to complete the circle?


----------



## Tramwayman

I read that Anne Hidalgo said in April 2014 that the tram would close the circle no matter objections!


----------



## atlantis5484

Suburbanist said:


> Why?
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense to complete the circle?


Because people living in what we call " Auteuil Neuilly Passy" are too fortunate to melt with other peoples.
See this music clip " Auteuil Neuilly Passy" from "Les Inconnus" on youtube and you will understand (even if you don't speak french)


----------



## VincentB_

There's another reason : this part of the city is already served by the VMI branch of the RER C... and its frequentation is low.

(but in my opinion, the tram would be a great improvement, given the fact that trains on the VMI are scarce and slow !).


----------



## parcdesprinces

Tramwayman said:


> I read that Anne Hidalgo said in April 2014 that the tram would close the circle no matter objections!


As a resident of this neighborhood I confirm indeed that it was included in the program of the local socialists during the last municipal elections campaign, but as usual the right-wing won in this Arrondissement and they support the local inhabitants/electors and companies in their opposition to the tram here. So whatever Hidalgo says, she will have to go counter a strong opposition and dozens of appeals (which will last years) if she really want to build that tram extension. Anyway, for now which is truly planned at more or less long term is the _Pont du Garigliano-Pte d'Auteuil_ extension, especially in order to serve the French Tennis Open stadium, the Stade Jean Bouin and the Parc des Princes, the rest (i.e. _Pte d'Auteuil-Porte Maillot_) is not officially planned yet and has never been (not to mention it's not needed at all).


----------



## Minato ku

VincentB_ said:


> There's another reason : this part of the city is already served by the VMI branch of the RER C... and its frequentation is low.


...and the metro line 9 which is quite close in the southern part of the 16th arrondissement.
Most Maréchaux boulevards neighborhoods in the 16th arrondissement are facing the big Bois de Boulogne park rather than densely populated inner suburban community.
This explains why the demand is lower here.










The line orange is where the T3 would run after Porte d'Auteuil


----------



## 00Zy99

Thanks a ton. Is there a way to move that Google map so we can see the whole thing?


----------



## Minato ku

It is just a picture from Google Earth where I added an orange line.


----------



## Minato ku

Buses at Chelles RER station


----------



## Minato ku

But don't forget that the central transportation network in Paris is the metro, RER and suburban trains.
Trams are just to fill gap.


----------



## 00Zy99

Minato ku said:


> But don't forget that the central transportation network in Paris is the metro, RER and suburban trains.
> Trams are just to fill gap.


And they can fill more gaps if interconnected, or form a back-up. The metro and RER both have overcrowding issues. If the trams take off some and have a healthy ridership, might that not be cheaper than expanding the metro and/or RER networks (not that that won't be necessary anyway).


----------



## Minato ku

Trams have already a healthy ridership, Paris has one of busiest network in Europe. 
Paris needs more metro and other Rapid transit lines, trams are too slow and don't have enough capacity. It can't be use for long journey.


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Trams are much cheaper to build than Métro lines.....


----------



## Tramwayman

Minato ku said:


> Trams have already a healthy ridership, Paris has one of busiest network in Europe.
> Paris needs more metro and other Rapid transit lines, trams are too slow and don't have enough capacity. It can't be use for long journey.


Trams are slow in France, because you plan the lines and build them so that they must be slow. Well and Citadis trams are only beautiful but technically hno:

Even in Poland where the tramway systems have outdated tracks run faster then french Citadis trams on new tracks. :lol:

And Germany, the fastest tram systems in the world on normal shared streets!!!! :cheers:


----------



## Minato ku

Paris has 12 million inhabitants, it is not a medium sized city like in Germany.
There is a higher density of population, more people, more traffic and we don't have wide streets like in Moscow, especially in suburbs.
Trams mixed with traffic in long section in small street means trams stuck in traffic jams.

Trams are maybe cheaper but they don't have the efficiency of the metro.


----------



## nanar

Trams double tracks are no more than 6/7 meters wide. 
No needs of wide streets like Moscow (such streets are suitable and attractive for private cars)
Trams running on reserved tracks, are greater, more comfortable, and more attractive than buses.
The matter is not to compare metro against trams,
but to build may be ...20 or 25 trams lines instead of 20/25 bus lines with the highest ridership.


----------



## towerpower123

The trams and buses in Paris are so beautiful and modern!!! I wish we could take some to the USA to replace some of the ugly excuses we have here! Also, I stand by my opinion that Translohr and any other guided bus, fake tram is a complete waste of money and a really stupid idea. If it were a full tram on steel wheels, it would not have a problem with snow due to the extreme pressure on the rail surface and narrow width. Also, it makes it impossible to plant a nice green route along the line like has been done with the trams.

While a full metro in tunnels would be preferred, trams and streetcars are the next best option, far ahead of buses.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ew/view/ratp-board-approves-t7-extension.html
> 
> *RATP board approves T7 extension*
> 10 Feb 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRANCE: The board of Paris transport operator RATP has formally approved the draft plans for a southern extension of tram line T7 from Athis-Mons to Juvisy, where an interchange will be provided with RER lines C and D.
> 
> Being promoted by Ile de France transport authority STIF, the extension was originally planned to open in 2018, but is now expected to be completed by 2021. Running for 3·7 km, including around 900 m in tunnel, the extension will serve six stops in the districts of Athis-Mons, Paray-Vieille-Poste and Juvisy-sur-Orge. One stop would also be underground
> 
> ...


----------



## radamfi

Can the Mobilis ticket be purchased on buses, or from ticket machines at tram stops?


----------



## Skalka

One thing bugs me: I don't want to say that the Paris Metro were somehow complicated, but I'm afraid that the Franciliens will have to stick with two metro maps in the long run: one for Paris proper and one for Grand Paris Express plus the tramway, each with an appropriate scale. What do you think?


----------



## parcdesprinces

radamfi said:


> Can the Mobilis ticket be purchased on buses


Nope.



radamfi said:


> or from ticket machines at tram stops?


Not sure....but I don't think so dunno. ....anyway, ratp.fr is your friend..


:bowtie:


----------



## parcdesprinces

Skalka said:


> One thing bugs me: [...] What do you think?


I think that the map below will suit you |)... Enjoy! opcorn:..












:runaway:


----------



## 00Zy99

Too much pastel, not enough contrast.

I can't tell what half the things are.


----------



## radamfi

The RATP site says



> Mobilis est en vente dans toutes les stations de métro, de bus, du tramway et des gares du RER, ou encore chez certains commerces agréés RATP.
> spacer


My French isn't very good but I think that means you can buy it at metro stations, on buses, on the tramway, RER stations and certain other outlets.


----------



## RoccatArvo

lechevallierpatrick said:


> Quel dommage et quel gaspillage.....Avec le tramway il n'y aurait pas eu de problemes....





00Zy99 said:


> What a shame and what a waste.....With the tramway it would have had no problems....


The T6 line was blocked because of the snow a day of January. The T5 line is equiped whis Translohr trams. No problem reported the same day. At the end of Decembre, it snowed in the region. No problem reported.

The T6 line is very recent. It was the first winter since the opening of the line. In France, some other networks also experienced problems with the snow during the first years of service. And yet, these networks are equipped with normal trams.


----------



## radamfi

Can someone confirm please if my understanding of the French in my post above is right?

In other words, you can buy Mobilis from the bus driver or the tram stop machine.


----------



## Minato ku

You can't buy Mobilis from the bus driver. 
Bus drivers only sell (sans correspondance) ticket at two euros.
This ticket is more expensive than the normal ticket, works only in bus and you can't make transfer between bus lines.

You can buy Mobilis from the tram stop machine.
Tram stations have exactly the same kind of machine than the metro stations.


----------



## radamfi

Minato ku said:


> You can't buy Mobilis from the bus driver.
> Bus drivers only sell (sans correspondance) ticket at two euros.
> This ticket is more expensive than the normal ticket, works only in bus and you can't make transfer between bus lines.
> 
> You can buy Mobilis from the tram stop machine.
> Tram stations have exactly the same kind of machine than the metro stations.


Thanks. So is

http://www.ratp.fr/en/ratp/c_21148/mobilis/

wrong, or my translation?


----------



## Skalka

parcdesprinces said:


> I think that the map below will suit you |)... Enjoy! opcorn:..
> 
> :runaway:


Yeah, that's exactly the problem. :lol:


----------



## Minato ku

radamfi said:


> Thanks. So is
> 
> http://www.ratp.fr/en/ratp/c_21148/mobilis/
> 
> wrong, or my translation?


I think that when they speak of bus station, this means of the big bus terminals where you can find ticket machines.


----------



## Minato ku

00Zy99 said:


> Is there a diagram of the new shelters? I can't find the countdown clocks in the pictures (they're too busy) and I'm not sure where the displays are.





Minato ku said:


> You can't see it because they are not yet operative in most of the new stops.


----------



## 00Zy99

Ah HA!

THAT. Is an actually useful thing.


----------



## Minato ku

Minato ku said:


> A new SIEL version for the new bus shelters inside the City of Paris.
> This version is bigger and then can provide more information than just the next bus arrivals.


There is also an other version


----------



## alexandru.mircea

The pic I posted with the snow was obviously a pic of a tram and not Translohr because the tracks were double, instead of single tracks. 

There is a map of the whole IdF network (including transilien, RER, trams and some of the more important suburban bus lines) posted in all metro stations, it's very good - easy to follow and not overly large. It is too big though to make it into tiny pocket maps (like the metro map from RATP). On the Vianavigo website & app the solution was to show the RER & transilien lines only in the first instance and to zoom in for the metro, tram etc.


----------



## Sacré Coeur

^^ This is the link for the IDF mass transport network map you mentioned.


----------



## Ledindondelafarce

alexandru.mircea said:


> There is a map of the whole IdF network (including transilien, RER, trams and some of the more important suburban bus lines) posted in all metro stations, it's very good - easy to follow and not overly large. It is too big though to make it into tiny pocket maps (like the metro map from RATP).


There actually are tiny pocket maps with the new STIF IDF map. RER, Transilien and trams on one side, zoom on inner Paris on the other.


----------



## Minato ku

alexandru.mircea said:


> The pic I posted with the snow was obviously a pic of a tram and not Translohr because the tracks were double, instead of single tracks.


This is the Translohr, line T6. I recognize the area in Châtillon.
Anyway you need to know that it is before a steep slope.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Minato ku said:


> This is the Translohr, line T6. I recognize the area in Châtillon.
> Anyway you need to know that it is before a steep slope.


You're right, I even found the place on Street View. The user who tweeted the photo also said it was the Translohr, so it's really strange how looking at the pic it suddenly started looking like a conventional two-tracked tram, completely fooling me.



Sacré Coeur said:


> ^^ This is the link for the IDF mass transport network map you mentioned.


That's the one, thanks.


----------



## Bren

A new administrative step toward making the T1 extension a reality.










http://www.lemoniteur.fr/147-transport-et-infrastructures/article/actualite/27515190-tramway-t1-le-prolongement-a-l-ouest-est-d-interet-general-pour-le-stif-et-les-hauts-de-seine


----------



## alexandru.mircea

The streets for the T1 extension are quite narrow all the way through, it's going to be interesting.


----------



## Minato ku

Minato ku said:


> A new SIEL version for the new bus shelters inside the City of Paris.
> This version is bigger and then can provide more information than just the next bus arrivals.


Good night visibity, better than during day light.









Bus stop poles are also lighted.


----------



## Minato ku

Buses in Sartrouville


----------



## Suburbanist

Will RATP build more Translohr lines? Translohr needs more costumers.


----------



## Tramwayman

Suburbanist said:


> Will RATP build more Translohr lines? Translohr needs more costumers.


Completely usless thing :lol:


----------



## Ledindondelafarce

Suburbanist said:


> Will RATP build more Translohr lines? Translohr needs more costumers.


So far there is no projected Translohr line AFAIK.


----------



## Suburbanist

Paris is not hilly enough for Translohr, maybe.


----------



## Tramwayman

Suburbanist said:


> Paris is not hilly enough for Translohr, maybe.


Modern trams can negotiate the same percentage of hills as Translohr, and you are gonna find very few cities in the world that have more then 13% hills and with need of a modern tram.

So TRANSLOHR has no costumers because it is not needed anywhere.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Tramwayman said:


> So TRANSLOHR has no costumers because it is not needed anywhere.


Actually, Translohr do have some costumers, dear:

Paris, France
Clermont-Ferrand, France
Padua, Italia
Venice-Mestre, Italia
Tianjin, China
Shanghai, China
and
Medellin, Colombia

:bowtie:


----------



## RoccatArvo

The Translohr could interest several cities in Asian and in South America.


----------



## Lw25

Tramwayman said:


> Damn, never thought there still existed such dumb persons :lol:
> 
> Lets see how this narrow street city will give all the citizens their right to use cars hahaha


Well, you can see this in practice, in Poland. Our local authorities (3, 4, 5 cadence in row) are mostly not only pro cars... they are car fetishists... e.g. in Krakow... 
Btw, one of the Polish cities, Olsztyn, is recreating their tram system (of course with very big road next to tram line). They were thinking about Translohr... but finally, railway is(/will be) on sleepers and trams will be from Solaris... And because tram can be build even by a workshop next to the tram depot and Translohr is patented... I don't think that anyone, except Chinese, will choose that kind of transport. Normal tram is just more convenient for transport company...


----------



## VincentB_

_Porte de Vincennes_ (T3a and T3B) ; it's a panorama made of several pictures.

From the left to the right :

- the T3a,

- the _Vélib_ station, the bicycle sharing service that is now an important part of the public transport system in Paris,

- the entrance of the subway station (line 1),

- on the right, you can see the platform of the T3b.



(warning 56k !)

The bridge is a part of the former _Petite Ceinture_ urban circular railway line, now unused.


Back in Paris next week for two more job interviews :banana:


----------



## RoccatArvo

Some photos of the future underground stations of the T6 tram line.

Some photos taken in 2014.



















Dissambled tunnel boring machine.











Viroflay-Rive Gauche station in 2014.











Viroflay-Rive Droite station in 2014.











Some photos taken in 2015.



















Photos : Gérard Rollando.

http://www.tramway-chatillon-viroflay.fr/s-informer/images/


----------



## dimlys1994

^^How huge:cheers:


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

Images taken on 2 may.


----------



## VincentB_

V.E Day :


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

*







Line 21 (ratp)
Man Lion's City hybrid*


----------



## Bren

Paris trams network


----------



## HARTride 2012

Benobve has some new Metro and LRT videos!

https://www.youtube.com/user/benobve/videos?shelf_id=0&sort=dd&view=0


----------



## Minato ku

Today, I saw some MAN Lion's City hybrid on line 28 (RATP) but it just a provisional move.


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

* Old style Scania OmniCity *

LINE 148 Mairie de Drancy









and bus service special event Paris-Stade de France


LINE 145 Rosny 2


----------



## Filip7370

Proud to say, they are labeled "Made in Poland", their production facility is placed in Słupsk, West Pomorze Wojewodaship.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/light-rail/more-citadis-lrvs-for-paris-line-t3.html?channel=526
> 
> *More Citadis LRVs for Paris Line T3*
> Tuesday, June 16, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE board of Ile-de-France transport authority Stif adopted a financing agreement on June 15 which will fully fund a €63m order for 17 additional Alstom Citadis LRVs for Paris light rail Line T3 to support the extension of the line and increase capacity on the existing route_
> 
> Construction is expected to begin within the next few months on the next phase of Line T3b, a 4.3km extension from Porte de la Chapelle west to Porte d'Asnières. The extension will have eight stations, including interchanges with metro Line 4 at Porte de Clignancourt, Line 13 at Porte de Saint-Ouen and the northern extension of Line 14 at Porte de Clichy
> 
> ...


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Bonjour!Would anybody know how many passengers use T3a and T3b everyday?


----------



## nanar

Less or more 300 000 on average weekdays, I think.


----------



## Minato ku

This is the message I had written in december. The STIF published data about the ridership of all tram lines.



Minato ku said:


> Weekday ridership of the tram lines according a document distributed by STIF during the opening of T6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 179,000 passangers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 196,000 passengers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 181,000 passengers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 90,000 passengers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 34,300 passnegers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 49,000 passengers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 23,000 passengers
> 
> Prevision
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 82,000 passengers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 60,400 passengers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 70,000 passengers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 25,000 passengers
> 
> The ridership of the T7 is rather disappointing, I hope it will get better in the future, especially with the extension to Juvisy.
> They hope 40,000 passengers in this extension.
> The line that the T7 replaces was linking Villejuif Louis Aragon with Juvisy.
> 
> The T10 seems rather useless, this is more like a gift to make happy some suburban mayors (including the President of the general council of the powerful Hauts-de-Seine department).
> 
> With the two planned extensions of the T1 would have 110,000 passengers. With the opening of those, the line T1 will be cut in two.
> The extension of the T3b would have 76,000 passengers
> The extension of the T4 would have 37,000 passengers


----------



## nanar

May be T7 needs a complement (T7d) going north south directly, not through Rungis market ("MIN")


----------



## Minato ku

That's what many people are complaining, the old bus line was going north south directly following the N7 road.
Also the fact that the T7 stops at Athis-Mons instead of Juvisy (big RER station) for the old bus line added a transfer to some passengers.


----------



## Kolerus

How much is Tzen lines?


----------



## skyrocket2

I wish similar cities would invest in transport in a similar fashion to Paris. The city is one of the few in Europe to be blessed with boulevards and an entire country willing to subsidise public infrastructure, but it still does not excuse how poor some metros are in most of Europe, and God forbid USA!


----------



## Minato ku

Kolerus said:


> How much is Tzen lines?


I have no info about the ridership of Tzen line 1, the area served by the line is still in development so I don't expect a huge ridership.

________________________________


----------



## Clery

How many tram lines are in activity in Paris at this date?


----------



## Tramwayman

Clery said:


> How many tram lines are in activity in Paris at this date?


I thought the best known search engine is google, if you type there Paris tram you are gonna have tons of information, why ask such a thing here?hno:

There are:

1 Tram train line T4
2 Translohr lines T5 and T6
5 Tram lines T1, T2, T3, T7, T8


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Bonjour...How is the daily ridership on T6 going?Is it better than expected?


----------



## HARTride 2012

Where can I find an UPDATED bus network map?


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

*Transdev STRAV (Val d'Yerre Network)*
Line C1 Avenue Charles Christofle (Irisbus IVECO Citelis)


Line C2 rue de Villecresnes (Heuliez-Bus GX427)


Line C2 rue du Réveillon (Iveco urbanway)


Line Q Avenue Charles Christofle (IVECO urbanway 12)


Line I rue Les canotiers (Heuliez-Bus GX327)


Line I Avenue Charles Christofle (Heuliez-Bus GX327)


----------



## Minato ku

HARTride 2012 said:


> Where can I find an UPDATED bus network map?


Here you can find the bus map by sectors in suburbs
_Note, for the sector maps click on the links under the "Et aussi, nos plans de secteur géographiques multimodal :", not on the bus sign above._
http://www.ratp.fr/fr/ratp/c_20559/consultez-l-ensemble-des-plans/

Here the bus map inside the inner Paris (but it is not updated, some suburban bus routes that changed are still there hno.
http://www.ratp.fr/informer/pdf/orienter/f_plan.php?loc=reseaux&nompdf=bus_paris&fm=gif



lechevallierpatrick said:


> Bonjour...How is the daily ridership on T6 going?Is it better than expected?


Unfornately, I have no info about it.


----------



## XAN_

Does anyone have a brief description of T4 signalling system?


----------



## RoccatArvo

Line T6 : Progress of the works of the underground stations in Viroflay.























































Photos : Gérard Rollando.


----------



## Fro7en

^^ how did you get in here? or is this official photos?


----------



## Nouvellecosse

The station looks like it will be very elaborate and grand enough to be metro or rer.


----------



## RoccatArvo

Fro7en said:


> ^^ how did you get in here? or is this official photos?


Official photos.


----------



## Minato ku

Iveco Urbanway, the successor of Irisbus Citelis on line 69.


----------



## VincentB_

Nouvellecosse said:


> The station looks like it will be very elaborate *and grand enough to be metro* or rer.


To save cost, it was decided to reuse the tunnel boring machine that already had been use to bore the extension of the L12 of the metro. That's the reason why the tunnel of the T6 is so wide.


The works for the extension of the T3 has begun. Pics taken last week from the _porte des poissonniers_ - close to the current last station of the line - where the T3 will cross the RER and D, and the tracks to the _Gare du nord_. On the right, behind the fence, the tracks of the _Petite ceinture_ (there's a rom camp there... for the time being).

East :



West :


----------



## Busfotodotnl

Extension works of







between Robert Wagner and Viroflay-Rive-Droite
















This extension of has a interesting tunnel within it, which i passed two days ago when i visited the existing part of


























19 and 20 september the works are open for the public.


----------



## metr0p0litain

I'm surprised about the low expected ridership of only 25,000 passengers/day for the new T10. Seems like it's gonna be a Translohr-based line like T5 with STE3, because of intersection problems between a classic tramway and the Translohr system.


----------



## Minato ku

No, the T10 will pass under the T6.
Here

It will be a conventional tram line.


----------



## metr0p0litain

Minato ku said:


> No, the T10 will pass under the T6.
> Here
> 
> It will be a conventional tram line.


Thank you!  I didn't expect that both lines will not cross at same level.


----------



## Falubaz

Does the Viroflay RG station have conection to RER C?


----------



## dimlys1994

Falubaz said:


> Does the Viroflay RG station have conection to RER C?


Oh yes, it will


----------



## Bren

Tramway T10 Antony-Clamart


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...struction-to-start-next-year.html?channel=526
> 
> *Paris Tram Express South construction to start next year*
> Friday, October 09, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _A €455m financing plan for the first phase of Paris's Tram Express South tram-train line was approved by the board of Ile-de-France Transport Authority, bringing the project a step closer to construction, which is due to start in the first half of next year_
> 
> Stif has approved an initial €76m allocation for the project, 53% of which will come from the Ile de France government with the French state contributing 28%, the department of Essonne 15%, and infrastructure manager SNCF Network 4%
> 
> ...


----------



## redstarcastles

Three tram routes photographed, 2, 3a and 6:


421 Musée de Sévres 13 September 2015


452 Porte de Versailles 13 September 2015


319 Porte de Versailles 13 September 2015


608 Chatillon Montrouge 13 September 2015

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/European-Trams/Paris-Trams/


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## alexandru.mircea

Anne Hidalgo (Paris mayor) is on the record about supporting the idea of a tram line that crosses Paris east-west either via Rivoli or via the quais: http://www.lejdd.fr/JDD-Paris/Le-pl...etonniser-les-voies-sur-berges-a-Paris-755585


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## metr0p0litain

Yes, but... Anne Hidalgo said, that she wishes a tramway of a new generation: Without rails and overhead wires. So, that sounds like a classic bus to me!


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## Nouvellecosse

metr0p0litain said:


> Yes, but... Anne Hidalgo said, that she wishes a tramway of a new generation: Without rails and overhead wires. So, that sounds like a classic bus to me!


Not to me. Trams tend to be longer and higher capacity than buses, so there would need to be some type of guidance system even if it wasn't traditional tracks.


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## Lw25

Nouvellecosse said:


> Not to me. Trams tend to be longer and higher capacity than buses, so there would need to be some type of guidance system even if it wasn't traditional tracks.


So it would be just a very long guided bus.


----------



## [email protected]

Nouvellecosse said:


> Trams tend to be longer and higher capacity than buses


Even if you think about bi-articulated buses (25m, 200 passagers) and you compare with, for example, the Citadis Compact (22m, 171 passengers) ?


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Yes, even when I think of rare exceptions, the fact remains that trams tend to be loner than buses.


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## alexandru.mircea

Personally I'd be happy even with a BHNS line (bus à haut niveau de service) or more, as I happen to think that the surface is not serviced well enough.


----------



## Lw25

Trams are longer than buses, but also, tram is a rail vehicle. Without "rail(s)" it is not a tram. It is a bus. Here, some people were arguing about Translohr, which has one rail. Long vehicle with rubber tyres, without any track... would be, no doubt, just a very long bus.


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## Yak79

I'm sorry, but your statement doesn't constitute an effectual criterion for classification. A good criterion must meet at least three requirements:
- *usefulness* - it must have a substantial practical impact on the matter to which it relates;
- *unambiguity* - it must attribute any item in one and only class, with no room for interpretation;
- *universality* - it must lead to the same result, whatever the circumstances.

Your criterion doesn't meet neither the first nor the second one:


 having rails or not has only a minimal effect on the vehicle manufacturer/infrastructure builder and no on from the users and operators point of view;
this way its impossible to draw a line between trams and trains; plus, it works for trams (for better or worse, since there's an _annoying exception_, the Translohr), but metros are split in a lot of unnecessary classes (it's instead obvious that Paris metro lines belong to the same group, regardless they're rubber-tired or conventional) and finally it can lead to absurd conclusions: even bridge cranes transport things going on a pair of rails, but obviously they aren't freight trains.
 
I suggest to use this useful, rational approach which I already posted here some months ago


Yak79 said:


> If you want a rational classification, you'll have to choose a scientific criterion: transportation engineering uses driver's tasks in order to divide “vehicles” in homogeneous groups. Going from A to B, a driver has to do a lot of activities that we usually imply with the word *to drive* and that activities can be grouped in main categories:
> 
> Navigation, aka choosing the route
> the driver is free to choose which route he follows ► INDIVIDUAL TRANSPORT, either private or public (TAXI)
> routes are fixed, settled by a superior authority ► MASS TRANSIT
> 
> Control, aka choosing the trajectory
> there's a steering wheel whit which the driver can control the direction ► BUSES, TROLLEYBUSES, ETC.
> the vehicle is constrained by a physical bond, without any steering device (guided transit system) ► TRAM, TRAIN, MONORAILS, ETC.
> 
> Drive, aka choosing speed, acceleration, braking, and interacting whit other vehicles
> the driver lead the vehicle under is own responsibility (visual march) ► TRAM, LIGTH RAIL, ETC.
> the driver (when present) follows instructions the regulator gives him (signaling) ► TRAIN, METRO, ETC.
> 
> Each time a system fits partly in a group and partly in another, you have to put it in the lower group, that is the heavier from driver's perspective (hence tram-trains are in the end TRAM, although adapted to railway requirements). Metros systems are a subset of trains, regardless which kind vehicles they employ (conventional metro, rubber tire metro, monorails, cable metro like in Perugia or maglev like in Nagoya).
> From this point of view there's no way you can deny that Translohr is a tram, even if you abominate it from the bottom of your heart.
> ...


this classification system is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria not only meet the above requirements, but have also a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation *capacity*, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. So Translohr is certainly a tram - in a manner of speaking,_ it barks like a dog …_ - while you can't say the same about other so-called _guided bus_ (optical,magnetic or whatever) an even about the now-defunct Bombardier TVR: they has a steering device, and they're really able to steer, then they falls under the bus class and its “constraints” (no offense meant to mayor Hidalgo, obviously ).

PS. My apologies: lexical choices I made may not be fully proper, but I don't master specialized English phraseology and I tried my best.


----------



## redstarcastles

A couple more:


706 Villejuif Louis Aragon 14 September 2015


712 Porte de Rungis 14 September 2015


705 & Concorde Porte de L'Essonne 14 September 2015


705 Porte de L'Essonne 14 September 2015

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/European-Trams/Paris-Trams/


----------



## Lw25

Yak79 said:


> I'm sorry, but your statement doesn't constitute an effectual criterion for classification. A good criterion must meet at least three requirements:
> - *usefulness* - it must have a substantial practical impact on the matter to which it relates;
> - *unambiguity* - it must attribute any item in one and only class, with no room for interpretation;
> - *universality* - it must lead to the same result, whatever the circumstances.
> 
> Your criterion doesn't meet neither the first nor the second one:
> 
> 
> having rails or not has only a minimal effect on the vehicle manufacturer/infrastructure builder and no on from the users and operators point of view;
> this way its impossible to draw a line between trams and trains; plus, it works for trams (for better or worse, since there's an _annoying exception_, the Translohr), but metros are split in a lot of unnecessary classes (it's instead obvious that Paris metro lines belong to the same group, regardless they're rubber-tired or conventional) and finally it can lead to absurd conclusions: even bridge cranes transport things going on a pair of rails, but obviously they aren't freight trains.
> 
> I suggest to use this useful, rational approach which I already posted here some months agothis classification system is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria not only meet the above requirements, but have also a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation *capacity*, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. So Translohr is certainly a tram - in a manner of speaking,_ it barks like a dog …_ - while you can't say the same about other so-called _guided bus_ (optical,magnetic or whatever) an even about the now-defunct Bombardier TVR: they has a steering device, and they're really able to steer, then they falls under the bus class and its “constraints” (no offense meant to mayor Hidalgo, obviously ).
> 
> PS. My apologies: lexical choices I made may not be fully propor, but I don't master specialized English phraseology and I tried my best.


I said that "Long vehicle with rubber tyres, without any track... would be, no doubt, just a very long bus.". Translohr has one rail, it was just an example of similiar discussion in this topic, but while you can call Translohr a tram, because it has rail, you can't call vehicle without rail a tram. That was the point.


----------



## Yak79

^^
I didn't misunderstood your post at all; my point is: what makes a tram (its distinctive feature) isn't being _a rail vehicle_, but being _a guided transit system driven under line of sight control_.
Until recently, all trams were actually rail vehicles, but this remark was nevertheless well based: since some vehicles can be used (and are indeed used) as a tramcar or as a unit for metro train-set, nothing in the vehicle itself could be used defining what a tram is. The whole thing has become more noticeable once Translohr appeared: the only way you can group it with other trams, as it seem logical to do, is extending the use of “rail vehicle” out of its common meaning (= a vehicle that runs on rails) until its literal meaning (= a vehicle that is related to a rail), and this obviously lead to some debate.
Using a more accurate (or engineering, if you prefer) definition not only this controversy is solved at root, but a thing became also clear: also a vehicle with rubber tires could be a tram, if only integrated a device that allows the driver not to worry about choosing and maintaining the trajectory.

The plain and simple fact is that in this field, the only successful (_aka_ which at least manages to fulfill the above-mentioned requirement) attempt to avoid the tracks - which provide, among a lot of other function, the needed constraint in conventional tram system - requires anyway a single steel rail.
Those other pseudo-guided bus I cited in my previous post (and to which mayor Hidalgo probably refers) fail from the start, since they're unable to *effectively* substitute this function of rails and therefore to bring up themselves from bus to tram class - putting aside that they're also, generally speaking, a technical fiasco.

Maybe in the future something could change, but currently your statement, albeit inaccurate, it's indeed true: all trams are _lato sensu_ rail vehicle.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Yak79 said:


> ^^
> I didn't misunderstood your post at all; my point is: what makes a tram (its distinctive feature) isn't being _a rail vehicle_, but being _a guided transit system driven under line of sight control_.


No, what makes a tram is also that it rides on rails. A guided bus does not, a translohr does not, so these are not trams.


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## Yak79

^^
Could you please adduce some technical reason for what you are saying, just like I tried to do; maybe something useful for a transportation engineer and not a simple tautology. Otherwise your statement is no more than a personal, irrelevant belief.
It's slightly upsetting when you struggle to explain and demonstrate something, moreover in a language you don't speak very well, and someone counter in a way that somewhat resound like “_because I said so!_”.


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## Skalka

I think that Silly Walks considers Translohr not to be a real tram for the same reason he may also consider rubber-tyred metros not to be real metros: If the tires break, the rail does no good in moving the vehicle and that this problem doesn't arise at more traditional vehicles with steel wheels. IIRC, that's also why rubber-tyred metro waggons have emergency steel wheels just in case to help itself out of a broken situation.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Yak79 said:


> ^^
> Could you please adduce some technical reason for what you are saying


Trams ride on rails, that's just what they do. Simple as that.


"A tram (also known as tramcar; and in North America known as streetcar, trolley or trolley car) is a *rail vehicle* which runs on tracks along public urban streets (called street running), and also sometimes on a segregated right of way.[1]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram


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## Silly_Walks

Skalka said:


> I think that Silly Walks considers Translohr not to be a real tram for the same reason he may also consider rubber-tyred metros not to be real metros: If the tires break, the rail does no good in moving the vehicle and that this problem doesn't arise at more traditional vehicles with steel wheels. IIRC, that's also why rubber-tyred metro waggons have emergency steel wheels just in case to help itself out of a broken situation.


Metro's have a far wider definition than just their type of wheels or tracks (frequency, complete grade separation, etc). Although I personally find rubber-tyred metros to not be very comfortable, if they adhere to metro-specs, they are metro.

Translohr doesn't ride on rails, it just uses one for guidance. It's a special type of guided bus.


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## Skalka

Silly_Walks said:


> Translohr doesn't ride on rails, it just uses one for guidance. It's a special type of guided bus.


On the other hand, a Translohr can't just (accidently or on purpose) jump off its guiding rail as a TVR vehicle did. Even if a Translohr moves on its stabilizers or "support wheels", it's designed to be so disabled that it can only move on the course of its rail, never jumping off. So even if a Translohr doesn't exactly ride on its rail, it's still a rail vehicle as it can't run without the pan in the ground in its rail which is kind of a socket to the "plug" at the underside of the vehicle.

I can see the problems why Translohr can be seen as an abomination of a tram rather than a real tram, but then again, it's like saying that the only true S-Bahn systems in the world were those in Berlin and maybe Hamburg just because they were first all the others got no third rail or an even remotely metro-like independence from other modes of traffic. That's just bean counting or comma-f***ing.


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## Silly_Walks

People keep bringing up metro or S-Bahn, which have rather loose definitions regarding type of rolling stock.

In this case, however, we were discussing trams, and not metro or S-Bahn. The fact of the matter is that trams ride on rails. Simple as that. You might not like it, but that's the way it is. You might like Translohr, that's entirely up to you. But you liking it does NOT make it a tram.


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## Skalka

The problem is that I actually don't like Translohr. And as we're at it, there's even a mode of transport called *aerial tramway* (that's a ropeway) which definitely doesn't run on rails. On the other hand, its very nature allows for course other modes of transport hardly allow. Getting over the East River between Manhattan and Long Island without digging a tunnel.


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## Silly_Walks

Skalka said:


> And as we're at it, there's even a mode of transport called *aerial tramway* (that's a ropeway) which definitely doesn't run on rails.


Which is why it is called an aerial tramway. It denotes a difference. Soy milk isn't milk, milk comes from mammals. An aerial tramway isn't a tram, trams run on rails.


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## Yak79

@*Silly_Walks*
Even if you arrogantly repeat a thing countless times, refusing to give any reason, it won't became more true only for that.

Your wiki-based explanation is useless: firstly because this is a *definition*, not an *exposition* and, with my utmost respect for its valuable work, I really don't think Wikipedia is some sort of revealed, in which name you must disown you rationality; then because Wikipedia pages differs depending on the language, so its not universal, (and your quote isn't even the best version, unless you think also this is a tram).
I'm here, waiting to know why, in your opinion:
- the nature of road is so important, among other mechanical features (framework, engine, power supply devices, wheel-rail interaction, etc.);
- metro and S-bahn definition has to be wider than the tram's one, or _loser regarding type of rolling stock_;
- my supposed liking Translohr doesn't make it a tram, but your obvious hating it do make it not to be a tram.

Anyway, there's not a thing like a _guided bus_; it's a contradiction in terms: if it is a bus, it'll have a steering device and so it won't be really guided, if it's guided, it won't have any steering device and so it won't be really a bus. _Guided bus_ is only a business catch-phrase, coined only for marketing purposes.

PS. this whole thing has very little to do with Translohr, from which you are clearly obsessed: I repost an explanation made about the nature of Translohr only because it can be effective in pointing out a better objection against cited official mayoral statements than the mere “rail issue”.


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## nanar

Please; stop these stupid recurrent discussions about sex of angels, or open special thread for that .. :bash:


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## Yak79

^^
My apologies for my posts being blatantly OT and a little disputatious :hide:.
Before stopping here and now this controversy, I really don't want to be or appear self-righteous, hence I've to add a clarification: the definition I use is only one possible definition of tram; I think it's a good, effective and well based one: I hope I 've been good enough in explaining why.
But definitions are _per se_ conventional and can change as time goes by, and it's obviously welcome any alternative definition, but those without a rational base or founded only upon tradition or authority.


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## metr0p0litain

The thing what people love about tramways is the high quality of ride and the well built infrastructure. Rails give people the promise of "something will come along". A bus can change its way every time and as a passenger you can't be sure that you're on the right place to wait for it. We've seen the growing number of cities with new tram lines in France and it's no secret that people find it cool to ride by tram, because they're tired of the poor ride quality of buses.

The french tramway is a big success, because it's modern and compares the best a classic tramway offers. With a tramway of "a new generation without rails and overhead wires" there is a risk to damage the reputation of modern tramways in France. People aren't stupid and even if you write "Tram" on a bus, it still will be what it was before...


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## Minato ku

I think that people should stop to take Anne Hidalgo seriously, she just say that to show that she had project in mind. 
She wants that the media talk about her. She sees the management of the city as an extensive advertising campaign. :nuts:

The municipal office of the City of Paris should help funding subway extension, it would be better.


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## RoccatArvo

metr0p0litain said:


> The french tramway is a big success, because it's modern and compares the best a classic tramway offers. With a tramway of "a new generation without rails and overhead wires" there is a risk to damage the reputation of modern tramways in France. People aren't stupid and even if you write "Tram" on a bus, it still will be what it was before...


Don't be so sure. In Nancy, there is no tram, but a TVR from Bombardier. Technically, it's a guided trolleybus. But lots of people think it's a tram, because it's called "tram" by the local public transportation company and by the local politicians. It's the same in Caen.

In some others cities, such as Nîmes, the politicians invented ludicrous names like "tram'bus" for the BRT systems. :nuts:


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## MTR MTR

RoccatArvo said:


> In some others cities, such as Nîmes, the politicians invented ludicrous names like "tram'bus" for the BRT systems. :nuts:


Wow I was about to mention Nimes...
I think they named it A Tram because they wanted it to be converted into one in the future (though they just opened the BRT) it would save them the hassle of renaming everything.

Maybe their definition of tram is: Something that is articulated that is fast and comfortable, which is basically a BHNS.


----------



## RoccatArvo

MTR MTR said:


> Wow I was about to mention Nimes...
> I think they named it A Tram because they wanted it to be converted into one in the future (though they just opened the BRT) it would save them the hassle of renaming everything.


No, it's more marketing. They don't want to say they're building a BRT line when the other cities are building trams. They chose buses with a special design (Irisbus Crealis Neo) to look more "modern", but it's also more expansive.

In France, people prefer the tram. So when it's called tram, it's more attractive than when it's called "bus à haut niveau de service".


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## VincentB_

Pics taken during the heritage days.

Those vehicules are currently located in a warehouse, near _Villeneuve triage_ station.

An icon, like the Sprague : the Renault TN. They were introduced in the 30's and in use until 1971.





After the liberation of Paris, many busses had been destroyed, or damaged beyond repair ; many other had been so overused during the german occupation that they had to be scrapped. There was an urgent need for new busses. But the Renault factory was itself partially destroyed and suffered from a lack of workers and the scarcity of steel. 

As a result, it was decided that the factory would built only the chassis, and that the bodywork would be built by the RATP in its workshops ; these busses has a different look from those built by Renault ; to date they are still the only busses built by the RATP :


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## VincentB_

A postwar bus built by Somua ; it is still well remembered because a scale model was produced by Dinky Toys.





A trolleybus built by Vetra. Trolleybusses were introduced in Paris during the war because of the lack of fuel. They were replaced by busses in 1966. 



A Chausson - one of the last built (Chausson was a subsidiary of Saviem, now Renault Trucks) :





To reduce maintenance costs, it was decided in the 60's to buy a single standard model that would replace all the different models in service.

A request for proposal was issued aud three companies responded : Saviem, Berliet, and Verney (the latest didn't go beyond the prototype stage).


----------



## alexandru.mircea

VincentB_ said:


> Chausson


The Chausson factory in Asnières?


----------



## [email protected]

Yes (but there was also a factory in Gennevilliers...)


----------



## VincentB_

Yes, Chausson's main factory was there.

Two prototypes were selected : the Saviem (later Renault) SC 10 and the the Berliet PCM. 

The SC 10 would be a huge success in France and had a lengthy career. 

As a kid, I preferred the Berliet because of its impressive radiator grill. However, they suffered badly from corrosion (the chassis was made of steel and the bodywork of aluminium).

This SC 10 was used as a free shuttle between _Villeneuve Triage_ station and the exhibit :



From the left to the right :

- a Berliet PCM ;
- a Berliet PCMR ; this derivative of the PCM was a failed attempt for a revival of the doubledeckers in Paris. They proved to be difficult to use in the streets of a city where there are many trees ; people were reluctant to go to the upper level as the rides in busses are most of the time very short (for longer ride, we use the subway) ; but most of all, I remember very well that I had the fear of my life the first time I used one of them : the shock absorbers were very soft (many streets in Paris are still cobbled) and that gave the very unpleasant feeling that the bus would fall appart in the curves (moreover I usually become very quickly seasick) ;
- a Renault SC 10 (latest facelift).



Berliet PGR ; another derivative of the PCM but narrower end shorter.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Nice. On the site of the Chausson Bros factory in Asnières there is a nice little park now, with only the frontispiece of the factory remaining, installed there by the authorities together with a signpost with the tale of the factory.



















http://www.panoramio.com/user/2640518?with_photo_id=19868685


----------



## alexandru.mircea

In other news, the works for the prolongation of the T1 from the current Asnières end towards the T2 in Colombes have started in November. The official website here: http://www.t1ouest.fr/#&panel1-3


----------



## VincentB_

The rear of this SC 10 had been badly damaged in an accident. A worker of the RATP then came with the idea to rebuilt it with an open air platform, like the old pre-war Renault TN.



This prototype became extremely popular and this version was later produced by Renault for several cities.

In fact, I didn't like to stand on the platform because it was just over the exhausts...


----------



## Minato ku

Porte d’Orléans
It was a mess at 8:15 pm when I was going to home.


















Several trams stuck behind each others.
Not only trams were stuck but pedestrians had difficulty to cross the intersection because of the trams.


----------



## gambarini

Why?


----------



## nanar

Because "Paris sera toujours Paris" 
(Paris will be always Paris ... a big mess)


----------



## alexandru.mircea

gambarini said:


> Why?


Cars. Getting through the intersection can last la lot, at rush hours, so cars that have engaged in crossing while on green lights, can stay so much in the intersection for so much that they are caught in the middle of it, blocking cars and trams coming from right/left. 

The presence of traffic officers has always been surprisingly rare, there, considering how difficult an intersection it is.


----------



## hans280

^^ This is surreal. I was having a drink at the Porte d'Orléans early last night - and shaking my head at exactly the same traffic mess. 

I do agree with Alexandru: it is about an inflated sense of entitlement among the car drivers. (Combined yesterday with the beginning of the easter weekend - this is one of the busiest spots for cars leaving Paris.) The traffic laws in every European country I know say that EVEN IF you have a green light you may not proceed if it's clear that the street ahead is blocked. The Swiss drivers (Zurich) are exceptionally good at this: when they are about to cross a tram line they stop and crane their necks to make ab-so-lute-ly sure there's no tram approaching before they proceed. In Paris I wouldn't recommend driving like that. On a few occasions (in my car) I have refused to proceed against a green light because the road ahead was miserably clogged. This instantly led to furious honking behind me, raised index fingers and, on one occasion, violent threats.

Shall we say that... the Parisians are not very good at subjugating their own private interests for the common good? :nono:


----------



## gambarini

hans280 said:


> ^^ This is surreal. I was having a drink at the Porte d'Orléans early last night - and shaking my head at exactly the same traffic mess.
> 
> I do agree with Alexandru: it is about an inflated sense of entitlement among the car drivers. (Combined yesterday with the beginning of the easter weekend - this is one of the busiest spots for cars leaving Paris.) The traffic laws in every European country I know say that EVEN IF you have a green light you may not proceed if it's clear that the street ahead is blocked. The Swiss drivers (Zurich) are exceptionally good at this: when they are about to cross a tram line they stop and crane their necks to make ab-so-lute-ly sure there's no tram appraising before they proceed. In Paris I wouldn't recommend driving like that. On a few occasions (in my car) I have refused to proceed against a green light because the road ahead was miserably clogged. This instantly led to furious honking behind me, raised index fingers and, on one occasion, violent threats.
> 
> Shall we say that... the Parisians are not very good at subjugating their own private interests for the common good? :nono:


The same and even worst in Rome


----------



## Minato ku

That's why the fact that the tram will cross Porte Maillot worries me.
They managed to avoid the problem at Porte de Vincennes when they divided T3 in two lines which stop on the sides the Avenue. So on regular service, trams don't cross Porte de Vincennes.


----------



## 00Zy99

What ever happened to the underground stations on "T6"? I haven't heard anything on them for a while, but what pictures I saw looked beautiful.


----------



## hans280

00Zy99 said:


> What ever happened to the underground stations on "T6"? I haven't heard anything on them for a while, but what pictures I saw looked beautiful.


The tunnel is part of the prolongation of the line to Viroflay, and it is scheduled to open for passenger service in "spring 2016". According to a website dedicated to the project it should be any moment now: http://www.tramway-chatillon-viroflay.fr/.


----------



## Fenix_2007

What's the word on the extension of T3B towards Porte Dauphine? Will it be done or not?

Shame that the extension currently under construction has been delayed.


----------



## Minato ku

T6 extension will open on May 28th.


----------



## Nexis

Some Recent Paris Tram videos from Timosha21


----------



## VincentB_

After 6 months in Paris I came back home in january.

I realised a few days ago that I forgot to show you those pics of one of the two remaining trams from the former network closed in the 30's.

This one is in fact the property of a belgian association (AMUTRAM). It's fully operationnal but the restoration is not totally accurate ; the chassis came from an old tramway from brussels.


----------



## Nexis

*Paris Tramway - Line T6 - Extention to Viroflay*


----------



## dimlys1994

^^This marks opening of world's longest Translohr tunnel, which is also second-ever Translohr tunnel to built


----------



## 00Zy99

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^This marks opening of world's longest Translohr tunnel, which is also second-ever Translohr tunnel to built


The second fact makes the first somewhat less significant.


----------



## dimlys1994

00Zy99 said:


> The second fact makes the first somewhat less significant.


First Translohr tunnel was opened two years ago in Mestre, Italy


----------



## Minato ku

The tunnel of T6 is longer. It is almost two kilometers of tunnels and two underground stations.
In Mestre it is just a section under the train station.

It was raining a lot, so I didn't take pictures of the station entrance.

*T6 extension to Viroflay*










Viroflay - Rive-Gauche































































Viroflay - Rive Droite





















































Tunnel between Viroflay - Rive Droite and Viroflay - Rive-Gauche


----------



## RoccatArvo

Some videos I found on YouTube.


----------



## Jlagu

Great pictures Minato ku...i wonder how the surface entrance of the tunnel looks

edit: never mind.. i saw the videos


----------



## Nexis

Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?


----------



## mrsmartman

bobtehpanda said:


> The issue is that unlike actual trains, monorails are a vendor-locked technology. Why would I invest in something that lasts 40 years if no manufacturer will support it or if the manufacturer that did supported it doesn't exist in 40 years? At least with light rail or trains you have a choice.


The same could be applied to guided bus way as well.

Or we may need a standard for guided bus way.

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/49077-manhattan-monorail/page-2

*Your Trusted Source of Railroad Photographs*


----------



## Yak79

Nexis said:


> Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?


Not particularly: in Venezia-Mestre network the crawl at 70 km/h, a good speed in urban context, over the trans-lagunar bridge (Ponte della Libertà, more than 3 km long) with no relevant issues.
Running on rubber tires, it could theoretically have better acceleration/deceleration standards, but these are anyway limited in order to ensure a safe and comfortable march for passengers. This asset, however, provides a good emergency braking (up to 3 m/s²) with the same equipment used in operating braking (disk brakes with ABS), while conventional tramcars must be equipped with magnetic track brake to achieve a similar performance.




mrsmartman said:


> Originally Posted by *bobtehpanda*
> _The issue is that unlike actual trains, monorails are a vendor-locked technology. Why would I invest in something that lasts 40 years if no manufacturer will support it or if the manufacturer that did supported it doesn't exist in 40 years? At least with light rail or trains you have a choice._
> 
> 
> 
> The same could be applied to guided bus way as well.
> 
> Or we may need a standard for guided bus way.
> 
> http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/49077-manhattan-monorail/page-2
> 
> *Your Trusted Source of Railroad Photographs*
Click to expand...

Those issues are more relevant - for both monorails and *tramway on tires* - in short/medium term, when:
- a vendor-locked technology means monopoly, with all its flaws (unbalanced relationship between counterparts, no competitive tenders for further vehicles, etc.);
- a sudden manufacturer bankruptcy or product discontinuation may leave purchasers in trouble with lack of spare parts and eventual fleet growing needs.
However, differences in this respect are less significant now than in the past, due the increasing widespread of turnkey solutions in mass transit market (we can think, e. g., at driverless “light” metros, or urban cable system).

Conversely, in long term patents will expire and procurement of new rolling stock won't be a serious matter, even in case of a unique technology: despite being a almost the only one of its kind, Wuppertal's Schwebebahn replaced its cars (GTW 72 by MAN) in early 70s, seventy years after its opening, and purchased a new fleet (GTW G15) by Vossloh Kiepe in 2011, paying new vehicles 3,9 M€ each (a bit expensive, but not absurd).


----------



## mrsmartman

^^ Turnkey solutions are fatty.


----------



## Tramwayman

Nexis said:


> Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?


Ride quality of a Translor is equivalent to a bus.

Tramway runs on rails, no concrete or asphalt surface can be as smooth as rail.

Yes Translor is very dependent on the CLEAN Rail, because the rail has huge gaps lots of thing fall there and the rolling material is easily damaged. 

Problems when it snows.

Concrete also damages after some years because the wheels run on the same spot.

Rolling material costs a lot of money, and they need exclusively tires from Michelline.

It is a cunning move from French government to tie a city with their Translohr so they will never ever be able to buy any parts from another supplier. The stupid cities that have adopted the system, well their problem :lol:

Paris built the 2 lines to have workers busy because Lohr industries went into bankruptcy and had to sell Translohr division, so Alstom bought it to prevent Chinese CSR to buy it.


Translohr has some theoritical advantages in compare with a normal tram which in fact are no advantages.

2.20 m wide. modern tramways can be as wide as this also, CAF is building trams fro St. Etienne with a width of 2.15mm

13% slopes, in no city Translohr has such inclines, normal tramways also can achieve this ramps, for example Bombardier trams in Augsburg with 11% incline possibility. 

turning radius 10,5 meters. well Bombardier builds the trams fro Toronto with a turning radius of 10.89 meters so no advantage.

Building costs are as high or even higher in compare with normal trams. Seen in practice.


----------



## Yak79

^^

I really *do* wish you stop here your personal crusade against Translhor, which you never miss to badmouth whenever someone post about it:


 firstly, your answer has no relevance at all with respect to *Nexis* question;
then, I highly doubt you ever rode a Translohr and therefore your statement about march comfort are merely based on prejudice or hearsay;
finally, your criticism, although not entirely preposterous, are nevertheless blatantly biased, exaggerated and dotted with some inaccuracies here and there (projects and procurements for Paris lines are far previous than Lohr crisis, Ayacucho line in Medellin reaches 125 ‰, etc.).
 Despite being a huge tram enthusiast, I'm well aware where the boundaries between technical facts and personal tastes are: therefore I try my best to keep a balanced and unbiased perspective.
Conversely, I find slightly annoying and useless when someone pollutes a technical forum with his hateful rants, but this is clearly my point of view: I see someone even liked your umpteenth reiteration of generic contempt against this technology.


----------



## Tramwayman

Yak79 said:


> ^^
> 
> I really *do* wish you stop here your personal crusade against Translhor, which you never miss to badmouth whenever someone post about it:
> 
> 
> firstly, your answer has no relevance at all with respect to *Nexis* question;
> then, I highly doubt you ever rode a Translohr and therefore your statement about march comfort are merely based on prejudice or hearsay;
> finally, your criticism, although not entirely preposterous, are nevertheless blatantly biased, exaggerated and dotted with some inaccuracies here and there (projects and procurements for Paris lines are far previous than Lohr crisis, Ayacucho line in Medellin reaches 125 ‰, etc.).
> Despite being a huge tram enthusiast, I'm well aware where the boundaries between technical facts and personal tastes are: therefore I try my best to keep a balanced and unbiased perspective.
> Conversely, I find slightly annoying and useless when someone pollutes a technical forum with his hateful rants, but this is clearly my point of view: I see someone even liked your umpteenth reiteration of generic contempt against this technology.


I rode translohr in Paris both lines and in Venezia, so I know it low ride quality especially compared to tram, you should perfectly know that no concrete or asphalt based rubber tired public transport mode can be smoother than a tram riding on rails.

Ayacucho translohr line in Medellin by far could be the only place where this system shoul have been built ever, you can clearly see that in no other cities Translohr uses its "so called advantages" against tram.

There are by far no cities in the world with a need of long multiple section tram lines on 13% ramps, as well as the need of a 10,5 meter radius.

as of personal thing well Systra is currently in my town Tbilisi trying to push Translohr thing here because our modern future tramway system will have curves as tight as 18 meter on some places, Systra knows that with an open tender ALSTOM will never win the tender with their rigid bogie CITADIS trams with their 25 meter radiuses so not to lose the money they push Translohr appealing that normal trams can not take such radius. Well there are other manufacturers in the world making great adapted trams on any radius so thats why I am saying that French Government is trying to lobby this translohr thing everywhere they can to somehow sell it. Well my city is not a test field fro them and we do not want to be tied with this manufacturer.



Nexis said:


> Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?


You can clearly see here that translohrs are always overtaken in speed on the mentioned bridge in Venezia where they supposedly run with 70 km/h

here city buses overtake them
https://youtu.be/Ctylr9D1UlU?t=3m6s

the same happens here
https://youtu.be/8V76E-akzCs?t=4m24s

this is the only "speedy" section of translohrs, because in other cities they normally run max 40 km/h.

In Padova you can clearly see low ride quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjlPojTD7y8


----------



## Woonsocket54

Are the Rive-Gauche and Rive-Droite underground Translohr stations in Viroflay of identical design?


----------



## Yak79

Tramwayman said:


> I rode translohr in Paris both lines and in Venezia, so I know it low ride quality especially compared to tram, you should perfectly know that no concrete or asphalt based rubber tired public transport mode can be smoother than a tram riding on rails.
> ...


And you should know (having tested it) that Translohr could be at worst bumpy in its own way, and not in the same way as buses: its structural design, and therefore its dynamic behavior, is if anything similar (not equal) to a classical tram with Jakobs bogies, and far away from an articulated bus.
You also should know that also a modern multiarticulated tramcar “on rails” can be really awful when used in a legacy network: putting aside poor maintained tracks, even the absence of transition curves is more than enough to guarantee a very uncomfortable journey.
Hence, the equalities _trams on rails = always smooth ride_ and _trams on tires = bus-like ride_ are both false.




> ...
> Ayacucho translohr line in Medellin by far could be the only place where this system shoul have been built ever, you can clearly see that in no other cities Translohr uses its "so called advantages" against tram.
> 
> There are by far no cities in the world with a need of long multiple section tram lines on 13% ramps, as well as the need of a 10,5 meter radius.
> ...


The basis of your previous evaluation about Translohr features are flawed, since you aren't accounting a main point: you compared operating performances of standard version on one side (Translohr) and peak performances of different customized versions on the other (steel-wheeled trams). One thing is believing that there's no need of those strong points, another is claiming that those strong point doesn't exist (and the latter statement is false).




> ...
> You can clearly see here that translohrs are always overtaken in speed on the mentioned bridge in Venezia where they supposedly run with 70 km/h
> 
> here city buses overtake them
> https://youtu.be/Ctylr9D1UlU?t=3m6s
> 
> the same happens here
> https://youtu.be/8V76E-akzCs?t=4m24s
> 
> this is the only "speedy" section of translohrs, because in other cities they normally run max 40 km/h.
> ...


Since the tram in Venezia is roughly criticized (as well as any mass transit project in Italy), but I never heard anything about it being slower than what is officially declared, I simply assumed that it really run at 70 km/h. Anyway, the second video proves only that at least in some cases they go at a lower speed (51,1 km/average on the 3,4 km bridge section), and not that Translohr can't reach and maintain 70 km/h.
Plus, in a standard urban context all tramways _normally run max 40 km/h_, and the average speed is considerably lower when they run in mixed traffic sections.




> ...
> as of personal thing well Systra is currently in my town Tbilisi trying to push Translohr thing here because our modern future tramway system will have curves as tight as 18 meter on some places, Systra knows that with an open tender ALSTOM will never win the tender with their rigid bogie CITADIS trams with their 25 meter radiuses so not to lose the money they push Translohr appealing that normal trams can not take such radius. Well there are other manufacturers in the world making great adapted trams on any radius so thats why I am saying that French Government is trying to lobby this translohr thing everywhere they can to somehow sell it. Well my city is not a test field fro them and we do not want to be tied with this manufacturer.
> ...


So, in the end *there is* a personal reason behind you hate against this technology! A reason that I respect, even though I don't agree with - IMHO, any tramway project should be welcomed, regardless which kind of tram, once expected ridership is enough to justify it.
That said, your city authorities choice won't be affected no matter how many time you declare your loathing or how many proselytes you'll make on this forum: we are already well aware of your opinion on this subject, and by now we also know why, therefore I kindly renew my request to quit your hammering.


----------



## mrsmartman

Third party vendor could be the underwriter of metropolitan transportation system in the form of BOT model.


----------



## mrsmartman

Could the advantage of rubber wheel be less noisy?


----------



## 00Zy99

mrsmartman said:


> Third party vendor could be the overwriter of metropolitan transportation system in the form of BOT model.


What do you mean by overwriter?



mrsmartman said:


> Could the advantage of rubber wheel be less noisy?


The two are roughly equal if at top quality. Things deteriorate in both cases.


----------



## mrsmartman

00Zy99 said:


> What do you mean by overwriter?
> 
> 
> 
> The two are roughly equal if at top quality. Things deteriorate in both cases.


*Edit:* Underwriter.

It really depends on track condition. Underground concrete boxy track could produce much echo while unpolished steel curve could produce loud screechy sound.

See: MISC | Noisiest Metro?


----------



## Tramwayman

Translohr is not a tram, it is a long guided bus, and it is not welcomed in the city even less when it is labeled under the tram name.

You did not say anything about Padova and well we talk here about modern systems, Modern tramways run sleek and smooth while Translohr has the same bumpy ride as modern as you make it. After a short period of time concrete or asphalt starts to deteriorate and thing gets even worst.

Point is that our city hall already told Systra that we only need the steel wheel tram and on 1524 mm gauge, cause we want to link it with the railway for interurban ride, but they keep saying that we should only use tram in city boundaries and only on rubber tires so I find utterly offensive to hear things like that from them. I mean what they think of themselves, as I said Alstom has difficulties to build modern trams on 1524 mm and to be able to handle 18 meter curves, they see that building a tramway here, means that they can not participate in tender for rolling stock, so not to lose the whole contract they try to convince here the people to install this rubber tired "wannabetramlike" thing. That is one big fat cunning move from them so do not criticize me for hating. 

The same thing they did in Riga telling them to change track gauge on 1435 mm and buy Citadis trams. Riga said big FAREWELL to Systra and bought perfect modern trams on pivoting bogies called Skoda 15T.


----------



## RoccatArvo

Woonsocket54 said:


> Are the Rive-Gauche and Rive-Droite underground Translohr stations in Viroflay of identical design?


Not exactly, there are a little bit different. But the two stations are from the same architect.
http://www.pierreschall.com

He also worked on the design of the underground stations of tramway line 2 in Nice.


----------



## RoccatArvo

Some photos of the underground stations on the Internet.



























https://twitter.com/StephaneDSS/status/736882117225918468

Another photo, taken before the commercial launch.










https://www.yvelines.fr/2016/05/26/...es-stations-souterraines-du-t6-sont-ouvertes/

These underground stations look like underground cathedrals. ^^


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ with a note of natural history museums


----------



## Robi_damian

^^ Stunning.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Minato_ku, do you happen to know who is in charge of surface transport nodes? RATP or local authorities (like city halls)? I'm thinking of interchange nodes like say, the one at Chatillon-Montrouge. Also, would I be right to say that the one at Gabriel Péri (Asnières-Gennevilliers) is the worst in the inner ring of suburbs? Or maybe you've seen worse. Thanks in advance for any info


----------



## Minato ku

It is often the RATP that is in charge of these.

Chatillon Montrouge bus interchange never had a heavy structure, it was just several bus shelters next to each other.
Now the area is the construction site for line 15. Bus stops are in the nearby streets.
Gabriel Péri Asnières-Gennevilliers doesn't seem worst than Bobigny Pablo Picasso, Pont de Sèvres and many other big bus stations built during the 1980s.


----------



## Gadiri

> *Maroc : ça roule pour la RATP à Casablanca​*
> 
> OLIVIER COGNASSE MAROC , BTP MAROC , COP22 PUBLIÉ LE 19/05/2016
> 
> ...
> 
> *Une fraude à faire pâlir les transports franciliens*
> 
> Tout l’inverse du tram, qui *atteint un taux de régularité supérieur à 99 % et un taux de fraude de 0,25%*. De quoi faire rougir de honte, *le tram parisien avec ses 13% de fraude* affichés officiellement. Sans doute davantage réellement. Et "*nous souhaitons expérimenter la validation à quai en Ile-de-France*", prévient Elisabeth Borne.* Le système de Casablanca est fermé. Impossible d’atteindre le quai sans passer le portique de validation du billet.* Surtout avec une présence humaine dissuasive de deux agents par station, matin et soir, et dans les rames, avec des contrôleurs et une présence policière. Le tram transporte 41% de femmes, contre seulement 15% pour le bus… Seul point noir : les accidents, souvent graves. 130 ont été recensés l'an passé, malgré une baisse de 40% en un an.
> 
> ...
> 
> ----------------------------
> 
> 
> *Morocco: it rolls for the RATP in Casablanca​*
> 
> 
> OLIVIER Cognasse MOROCCO, MOROCCO BTP COP22 PUBLISHED 05/19/2016
> 
> ...
> 
> *Fraud to rival the Paris transport*
> 
> Quite the opposite of the tram, *which reaches a regularity rate of over 99% and a fraud rate of 0.25%.* Something to be ashamed, the *Paris tram with 13% of fraud officially displayed. *Probably more actually. And "*we want to experiment dockside validation in Ile-de-France,*" warns Elisabeth Borne. *The Casablanca system is closed*. Unable to reach the wharf without the portico of the validation ticket. Especially with a human deterrent presence of two agents per station, morning and evening, and in trains, with controllers and a police presence. The tram transports 41% of women, against only 15% for the bus ... The bad thing accidents, often severe. 130 were recorded last year, despite a 40% drop in one year.
> 
> ...


http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/maroc-ca-roule-pour-la-ratp-a-casablanca.N392052

Casablanca system : 



Also used in Istambul :









https://www.istanbulhotels.com/travel/light_rail_metro_system_in_istanbul.html


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Are RATP busses not supposed to turn on the air conditioning during periods of severe heatwaves? When I took a couple of buses on thursday afternoon the perceived temperature outside was 34 Celsius and inside the bus in must have been in the 50s, close to the levels that would make one faint. However there was no AC / ventilation at all.

By contrast, the Transiliens had a very cold AC on that day.


----------



## Minato ku

No, thanks to the Green the new RATP buses don't have AC. :nuts:


----------



## redstarcastles

3634 Opera 14 September 2015


1771 Opera 14 September 2015


9985 Opera 14 September 2015


7734 Opera 14 September 2015

More ici:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/BusSceneEurope/BSE-Paris-September-2015/


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Minato ku said:


> No, thanks to the Green the new RATP buses don't have AC. :nuts:


The heat is back again... **** the Greens!


----------



## 00Zy99

Who are the greens and what did they do?


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ the Ecologist party. Based on Minato_ku's answer I presumed they voted against AC for RATP (the SNCF then falls out of the Region's jurisdiction?)


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## 00Zy99

alexandru.mircea said:


> ^ the Ecologist party. Based on Minato_ku's answer I presumed they voted against AC for RATP (the SNCF then falls out of the Region's jurisdiction?)


Okay, I honestly fail to see how one party would have that kind of power. 

Why wasn't the decision made on a technical basis?

Why did they vote against AC? More emissions? I highly doubt that the impact would actually be that significant.


----------



## Silly_Walks

AC in bus -> more people take bus in stead of car -> better for the environment.


----------



## Suburbanist

Paris should phase out buses and replace them by trams, monorails and light elevated rail.


----------



## 00Zy99

The latter two have the issue of high visual impact. Besides, the metro already has absurdly dense service in the central areas.


----------



## Suburbanist

00Zy99 said:


> The latter two have the issue of high visual impact. Besides, the metro already has absurdly dense service in the central areas.


Then get rid of buses where metro service is already "absurdly dense".


----------



## 00Zy99

Suburbanist said:


> Then get rid of buses where metro service is already "absurdly dense".


Absurdly dense is not the same thing as having total 100% coverage of every desired route.

For many of the remaining routes, however, there is enough traffic to justify a bus, but not enough to justify building tram or a monorail.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

00Zy99 said:


> Okay, I honestly fail to see how one party would have that kind of power.
> 
> Why wasn't the decision made on a technical basis?
> 
> Why did they vote against AC? More emissions? I highly doubt that the impact would actually be that significant.


I too have no insight on how it happened, maybe Minato_ku can tell us more.

The problem with AC in fuel-based vehicles is that the consumption of fuel when the AC is on is huge. In trains this is not a problem because they're electric and electricity in France is produced mainly without emissions (not to say that nuclear waste and the accident risks aren't issues too). The high fuel consumption for AC is maybe a financial issue too.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...1-express-tram-trains-arrive-for-testing.html
> 
> *First T11 Express tram-trains arrive for testing*
> 13 Jul 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRANCE: The arrival of the first Alstom Citadis Dualis tram-train cars at the Noisy-le-Sec maintenance depot on July 12 marked the start of commissioning of the T11 Express tram-train line in the northern suburbs of Paris.
> 
> T11 Express is being delivered in two phases and involves the adaptation of part of a freight railway alignment for tram-train services to improve rail links between districts in the north of the city. Ultimately intended to serve a 28 km corridor between Sartrouville in the northwest of the city and Noisy-le-Sec to the east, the first phase is due to open in July 2017 over an 11 km route between Epinay-sur-Seine and Le Bourget serving seven stations. Interchange will be provided along the route with RER, metro and tram services
> 
> ...


----------



## Minato ku

Last long week-end line 1 (from Thursday _Bastille day_ to Sunday included) was closed between Porte Maillot and La Défense.

Replacement bus service at Porte Maillot








Funny note, replacement buses were crowded but the regular bus service following line 1 on this route, bus line 73 was quite empty.
_Note that line 73 stop is not there._

















Most were articulated buses except this one.


----------



## Get Smart

redstarcastles said:


> A couple more:
> 
> 705 Porte de L'Essonne 14 September 2015
> 
> More here:
> https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/European-Trams/Paris-Trams/


Next time i am in Paris, i want to take this tram to Porte de L'Essone, my question is, is this area in zone 3 or Zone 5?? I am assuming its in zone 5. Also how much is an all day tram ticket to cover zone 5??


----------



## Minato ku

It's on zone 4.
A day ticket (Mobilis) covering zone 1-4 costs €11.50.
You can use metro, RER, suburban trains, trams and bus inside those zones (except Orlyval).


----------



## Get Smart

Minato ku said:


> It's on zone 4.
> A day ticket (Mobilis) covering zone 1-4 costs €11.50.
> You can use metro, RER, suburban trains, trams and bus inside those zones (except Orlyval).


Thank you Minato Ku, that was very helpful, now I know what ticket to buy when I want to go see the Concorde plane parked there


----------



## Yak79

Tramwayman said:


> Bombardier Cityrunner trams with 7 sections in Augsburg run on 11% slopes.
> 
> I have spoken with many German tram engineers which all agre that 12% slope for modern multiple section trams is no problem.
> 
> ...


If it were true, why would have Linz had to resort to a specialized model - Bombardier _ Mountainrunner_ - for climbing Pöstlingbergbahn slopes, whose maximum incline is 11,6%?
We're not speaking about a _in-your-opinion-crap_ Alstom's product, and nevertheless Bombardier didn't take part in that tender with its standard models - wich should, according to you, negotiate such a gradient without troubles - but with a specially designed one, wich main feature is … ta-dah: an higher share (100%, in this case) of motorized axles, that is the same thing Alstom made for Jerusalem.

And FYI, _Am Perlachberg_ in Augsburg, with its 10,6% (or 10,4%, depending on the sources) actually hosts the steepest tramway track in Germany, but trams run through it downhill only: it's an one way road!
Moreover, to be more accurate, *CF8*s (the official denomination of Bombardier trams in Augsburg) aren't exactly “standard”: they've an adapted overhang ad quite more performing brakes than other vehicles in Flexity product line.

Here, 
an article* from Augsburger Allgemeine (25 May 2009) about the admittance of those trams into AVG (Augsburg operator) fleet;
a picture of Am Perlachberg descent by Panoramio user Dida from Augsburg.


* in German (I merely Google-translate it)


----------



## VincentB_

_Porte de La Chapelle_ (T3b) is temporary closed because of works on the extension of the line.







All trams stops at _Colette Besson_ :


----------



## VincentB_

T3a, _Porte de Versailles_, late in the evening last week ; this vehicle is in fact a vacuum cleaner :


----------



## VincentB_

_Aulnay-sous-Bois_ (RER B & T4) :






_
Freinville-Sevran_ (T4) :









Sevran was the start of a 25 km walk along the Ourcq ; It was my first time on the T4 ; I was very surprised to notice that the trains are relatively noisy.


----------



## CODEBARRE75011

Minato Ku said:


> It is a large metropolitan area with 12 million inhabitants.


12.5 millions the french method of Insee (40% or more commuter). With the anglo-saxon method (25% or more commuter) the metropolitan area of Paris is probably around 14 millions inhabitants or maybe more.


----------



## Minato ku

Here you're too much into the detail, the purpose of my message was to say that Paris is a very big city. :lol:
_____________________________________________








and bus line 183 (next T9), Porte de Choisy

Cross platform transfer between bus line 183 and T3a eastbound








Porte de Choisy is the only station on the T3a and T3b lines with an island platform.
Eastbound tram has doors opening on both sides.


----------



## 00Zy99

How will it work when T9 comes on-line? Will there be a track connection?


----------



## Minato ku

The T9 station will be on Avenue de la Porte de Choisy










No track connection seems to be planned even if the reversing tracks will parallel to T3a tracks on Boulevard Massena.


----------



## Tramwayman

Of course no connection tracks are planned cause T3 uses 2.65m wide vehicles and all other lines 2.40m and T9 will also use 2.40m cars so T3 vehicles wont even be able to physically use any other lines while 2.40m cars on T3 line would be too narrow for the platforms.


----------



## Minato ku

According what I heard T9 would use Citadis 402 and 403. This means 2.65m wide vehicles.


----------



## nanar

No : it means *around 43/45 meters long*

The 402 used in Grenoble , Bordeaux, Lyon, Rouen, the 403 used in Strasbourg are 2,40 m wide.
Others 402 (like Paris T3 or Montpellier), but also 302 (Montpellier, Mulhouse, Nice) are 2,65 m wide.


----------



## Tramwayman

Minato ku said:


> According what I heard T9 would use Citadis 402 and 403. This means 2.65m wide vehicles.


:lol::lol::lol:

Any Citadis model can be any width. This does not affect model name.



And again T9 can not use 402 and 403 together, it is either 402 or 403, not both of them.

And again T9 will use 402 model with a width of 2.40m.
403 model was exclusively made for Strasbourg.


----------



## Minato ku

No it isn't, *T9 will use 2.65m wide trams*.
That's what shows official documents.
I made a confusion, it's true that the name does not have anything to do with the width but it does not mean that the width was wrong.


----------



## Tramwayman

Minato ku said:


> No it isn't, *T9 will use 2.65m wide trams*.
> That's what shows official documents.
> I made a confusion, it's true that the name does not have anything to do with the width but it does not mean that the width was wrong.


Ok then T9 will use 402 model, with 2,65m width.


I wonder why does not Alstom seize the production of this old models in favor of updated series (Citadis X05) which already have customers (Nice and Sydney).


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## BSB2008

Minato ku said:


> The T9 station will be on Avenue de la Porte de Choisy
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> No track connection seems to be planned even if the reversing tracks will parallel to T3a tracks on Boulevard Massena.


Minato ku, is there any document from which you took this picture?


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## Minato ku

This comes from the official website.
http://www.tramway-t9.fr/

Here you can get some information of the project by areas
http://www.tramway-t9.fr/spip.php?rubrique3

Here the technical documents
http://www.tramway-t9.fr/spip.php?article103


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## BSB2008

Minato ku said:


> This comes from the official website.
> http://www.tramway-t9.fr/
> 
> Here you can get some information of the project by areas
> http://www.tramway-t9.fr/spip.php?rubrique3
> 
> Here the technical documents
> http://www.tramway-t9.fr/spip.php?article103


Thanks! kay:


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## MTR MTR

Hi,

I heard some buses in Paris are self service (libre service en francais) could someone clarify which routes are in self service?

Thanks


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## 00Zy99

Could someone please explain what self-service means in this context?


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/t11-express-depot-opened.html
> 
> *T11 Express depot opened*
> 16 Sep 2016
> 
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> FRANCE: On September 15 Valérie Pécresse, President of the Ile-de-France region and transport authority STIF, joined SNCF Transilien Director General Alain Krakovitch and other dignitaries to officially open the depot at Noisy-le-Sec that will maintain the fleet of 15 Alstom Citadis Dualis tram-train vehicles being supplied for T11 Express.
> 
> Deliveries are due to be completed by the end of this year, and with railway infrastructure work now finished, driver training is scheduled to commence in November. Under Phase 1 of the project, T11 Express services are due begin operating over the 10⋅6 km between Epinay-sur-Seine and Le Bourget in July 2017
> 
> ...


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## MTR MTR

00Zy99 said:


> Could someone please explain what self-service means in this context?


It means boarding through all doors.


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## Augusto

MTR MTR said:


> Hi,
> 
> I heard some buses in Paris are self service (libre service en francais) could someone clarify which routes are in self service?
> 
> Thanks


It sounds very 20th century. I havn't seen this for a while. Now you can board by all doors only on the 18m long buses and trams, excepted on the airports services. 
Fare evasion is an issue in Paris. In my opinion the only solution would be to gate the tram stops like in Istanbul or Casablanca or a conductor in every tram like in Amsterdam.


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## alexandru.mircea

Maybe MTR MTR is referring to driverless buses.

A question: are RATP envisaging the aquisition of new trams for T1?


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## Minato ku

Old buses


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## MTR MTR

How long are the trams on T1? they seem much shorter then the ones on T3.

^^
Are the heritage bus runs organized by the RATP?


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## nanar

Yes they are shorter. 29 meters on T1, 45 meters on T3
On the new line T11, I think around 44/45 m


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## VincentB_

Minato ku said:


> Old buses


Renault TN :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:



T2 near La Défense :


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## Bren

First cable car transport in Paris ... should we rename the thread to Bus, LRT, Tram, Cable


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## 00Zy99

So where is this cable car proposed to run? Where will it start/end? What route will it take?


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## Bren

^^



















75781850


https://villeneuve-saint-georges.fr/85-democratie-ville-de-projets/ville-de-projets/360-le-televal.html


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## PeFe

I found these photos of the very cool looking new Paris bus stops.




























Sourced from the ever interesting Jarrett Walker transport blog
http://humantransit.org/2016/09/paris-the-triumph-of-the-bus-stop.html#comments


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/work-starts-on-t13-express.html
> 
> *Work starts on T13 Express*
> 27 Sep 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> FRANCE: Preliminary work including vegetation clearance is due to start this autumn for T13 Express, which will see tram-train services introduced between Saint-Cyr-L’Ecole and Saint-Germain-en-Laye in the western suburbs of Paris.
> 
> Formerly known as Tangentielle Ouest, the project has been renamed to reflect the use of vehicles capable of running on heavy rail infrastructure as well as new on-street alignments. This brings it into line with the T11 (Epinay – Le Bourget) and T12 (Massy – Evry) projects elsewhere in the Ile-de-France region
> 
> ...


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## alexandru.mircea

alexandru.mircea said:


> Maybe MTR MTR is referring to driverless buses.



Here is the driverless bus that RATP will be testing for two years:



CODEBARRE75011 said:


> *RATP : un minibus autonome testé pendant deux ans*
> 
> 
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> 
> http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-se...dant-deux-ans-2029895.php?gD3RUtzCjAdL75Al.99


I think all articulated buses can be entered by all doors. It is certainly the case with 304, and if I remember well with 80 too. I don't know how many other lines with articulated buses are there.


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## alexandru.mircea

Among the many things voted at the last STIF council meeting, there is the "Grand Paris des bus" project. This is basically about buying 1000 buses for the suburban network from now to 2020, and it was part of the electoral promises of the current president of the region. This all is presented as a major rethink of the suburban network and it even has a website for public consultation, due to happen from Ovtober 5 to November 5: http://grand-paris-des-bus.fr/ The consultation for the Inner Paris network is already in progress (September 9 to November 30).


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## Bren

A new vid has been released about cable car A.


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## dimlys1994




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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...n-paris-tram-train-extension.html?channel=526
> 
> *Construction begins on Paris tram-train extension*
> Tuesday, October 18, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> _CONSTRUCTION of the extension of Paris tram-train line T4 to Montfermeil was officially launched on October 18 with a groundbreaking ceremony in Clichy-sous-Bois, which was attended by France’s minister for cities, youth affairs and sport Mr Patrick Kanner, Ile-de-France regional president Mrs Valérie Pécresse, president of the département of Seine-Saint-Denis Mr Stéphane Troussel, and Mr Alain Krakovitch, president of SNCF Transilien_
> 
> The project involves constructing a 6.5km branch off the initial Bondy - Aulnay-sous-Bois section from a junction at Gargan. The branch will have 11 stations, including an interchange with the future Grand Paris Express metro Line 16 at Clichy-Montfermeil. Daily ridership is forecast to be around 37,000, and around 30% of journeys will be through trips from Line 16
> 
> ...


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## Woonsocket54

^^ here is a schematic from Wikipedia










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Île-de-France_tramway_Line_4

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Plan_T4_Paris.png

This line will pass through some of the most economically depressed and transit-starved districts in suburban Paris.


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## Woonsocket54

Woonsocket54 said:


> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Plan_T4_Paris.png


Apparently the map posted to Wikipedia has outdated station names. Here is what appears to be the updated map from urbanrail.net:










http://urbanrail.net/eu/fr/paris/paris-map.htm

Notably, the station named after the real French politician Jean Jaurès has been renamed after the fictional Jean Valjean from Victor Hugo's "Les Misérables", famously portrayed by Australian singer Hugh Jackman in the musical film adaptation.


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## subbotazh

TZen (bus rapid transit) plans:










wiki


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## arctic_carlos

Isn't there a mistake in the RER signs in Épinay-sur-Seine? AFAIK it's RER C the line serving that station!


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## dougdoug

extension of T3B north of Paris


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## alexandru.mircea

arctic_carlos said:


> Isn't there a mistake in the RER signs in Épinay-sur-Seine? AFAIK it's RER C the line serving that station!


Yep!


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## Minato ku

arctic_carlos said:


> Isn't there a mistake in the RER signs in Épinay-sur-Seine? AFAIK it's RER C the line serving that station!


Yes there is, the big fail!! :rofl:


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## charpentier

Map of the driverless shuttle lines in La Défense:









http://defense-92.fr/mobilite/navettes-conducteur-ont-debute-service-a-defense-52592


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## 676882

Hm... Express Trams look like light-metro for me


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## VincentB_

T2, _La Défense_ ; one of the lines interrupted for a few weeks in summer because of renovation works :


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## Tyger-Wyger

00Zy99 said:


> What ever happened to the underground stations on "T6"? I haven't heard anything on them for a while, but what pictures I saw looked beautiful.


I was there yesterday (15.08.17) I rode the line end to end and back again just for shits and grins because tramway 20613 was doing the honors for me.

Those two stations are quite small, just the length of a tram set and that's all. At the terminal station the tracks continue so the trams can lay over giving their driver a short break before starting again. There is one of more switches so the trams can arrive on one platform and depart on the other.

I think these Lohr trams are striking in both technology and visual design as well. They have a single rail down the center of the tramway that guides it. The trams actually ride on rubber tires just like on some of the metro stock. Cirrent collection is by overhead wire.


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## Tyger-Wyger

Nexis said:


> Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?


I was riding the T6 yesterday (15.08.17) and it had no problem keeping up with the street traffic.


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## Nouvellecosse

Minato ku said:


> Alstom NTL Aptis, fully electric bus in test on line 21


That bus doesn't know whether it's coming or going! I love it! :lol:


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## VincentB_

Seen last Monday,_ Avenue de Tourville_.

Because of works in the street, the asphalt was removed, leaving the cobblestones apparent...



...and revealing the tracks of the former tram network ! They are still there, 80 years after the closure.

Needless to say, i shoot a lot of pictures. :lol:







Since remnants of this network are scarce, this is really a great discovery imho.


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## parcdesprinces

VincentB_ said:


> Since remnants of this network are scarce, this is really a great discovery imho.


Not that rare actually, a significant part of them are indeed still there under the asphalt. I remember when I was a kid in the 80s when numerous streets and avenues were still cobbled, you could see those old tracks pretty much everywhere in Paris back then.

Anyway, thanks for the pics, it's nice to see them again.


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## VincentB_

parcdesprinces said:


> Not that rare actually, a significant part of them are indeed still there under the asphalt. I remember when I was a kid in the 80s when numerous streets and avenues were still cobbled, you could see those old tracks pretty much everywhere in Paris back then.


I confess that i didn't remember this...

Age do that. :grandpa:


------------------------------


I didn't know were to put the following pictures hno:

Waterways are part of the parisian transport network ; last tuesday I had a chance to see a ship crossing the lock at _La Villette_ ; this lock allow transit of ships between the Saint Martin canal and the river Seine.













Many scenes in french movies take place there, including _Amélie Poulain_ and _Hôtel du Nord_, and it's the location of this year's edition of _Paris-plage_ :


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## GENIUS LOCI

^^
It doesn't look as a regular public service boat to me


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## VincentB_

I didn't say that... It isn't ; but ships were still integrated in the public transport system a few years ago :

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voguéo


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## 00Zy99

Any of those tracks still usable?

I know they were able to reactivate some old tracks in Dallas.

It'd be a real cheap way of expanding the system.


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## nanar

00Zy99 said:


> Any of those tracks still usable?


No. There is not enough distance between the two tracks for modern tramway (wide 2,40 or 2,65 m)
The old trams were no more than 2,00 m wide

Old parisian (intra muros) network, in 1923 (in red)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...n_STCRP_n°2_de_1923_(verso)_Trams_à_Paris.jpg


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## Neric007

Why are T3 a and b not continued to Nation to connect the linez with the subway and RER network efficiently ?


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## lechevallierpatrick

That is an excellent idea!


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## Neric007

But it seems such an obvious thing to do that I'm really wondering why it hasn't been done already and I assume there must be a reason somehow.


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## nanar

It's less or more projected, but a lot of *old* metro tunnels, serving as rolling stocks garage, are under Cours de Vincennes, between stations "Porte de Vincennes" and "Nation". 
http://carto.metro.free.fr/documents/CartoMetroParis.v3.10.png

May be they are not strong enough to support easily T3 tram weight (concrete + tracks + vehicles)


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## VincentB_

Suresnes (T2) :



The tunnel under Mont Valérien :


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## _Night City Dream_

Minato ku said:


> A short visit of the new T11.
> The line is fully segregrated.
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> RER B seen from the platforms of the T11 at Le Bourget


Is that famous Saint-Denis which has a glory of being one of the most dangerous and criminal boroughs around Paris?


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## Bren

Trams network


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## lechevallierpatrick

Dommage qu'il n'y ait pas de possibilités d'interconnection!


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## subbotazh




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## alexandru.mircea

*Tram 12 Express* will be delayed by one year and a half: https://twitter.com/LeParisien_91/status/911297319995355136


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## alexandru.mircea

Graph showing the increase in bus and tram ridership (in grey):










https://twitter.com/Asso_usagersidf/status/916702439432179717


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## alexandru.mircea

Tremendous pic:



















https://twitter.com/IDFmobilites/status/912684499854614528

Speaking of the T2, the user association *Plus de trains* (very active and successful in their dealings with SNCF and RATP) have started a sister association *Plus de trams*, dedicated to obtaining improvements in frequency and timetables for the tram network and especially T2, which has reportedly turned into a nightmare in recent times. You can follow them here: https://twitter.com/Plusdetrams


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## alexandru.mircea

And a couple of pics showing construction works for the T4, in Clichy-Montfermeil: 










https://twitter.com/AteliersMedicis/status/913430820144259075










https://twitter.com/seinesaintdenis/status/913752280201142272


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## alexandru.mircea

I recently took the T6 from Viroflay to Vélizy. The terminus station is just gorgeous! For the moment I claim #1 spot for it in my top of most beautiful stations that are not métro stations. The architecture is very simple actually, it's just walls made of loose concrete shapes, lighted from bellow and put behind glass. 

If you don't remember it: 


PARIS--606 arr Viroflay Rive Droite IB by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr









http://www.monversailles.com/tramway-t6-viroflay-velizy-chatillon/


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## parcdesprinces

^^ Looks like (in a more "gigantic" & "cathedral" way) to what they have done in Rouen (Normandy) in the 90s :yes::









©http://www.trams-in-france.net


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## Bren

Tram 13 Express


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## Vaud

^^ the whole thing after Poissy ZAC seems quite an unnecessary large expenditure. That's a huge distance to be covered by a tram parallel to existing railway tracks to serve one final station that is in fact connected to the RER. If the objective is to provide a railway connection to inhabitants from previous stations wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to create a railway station in the last stop in Poissy?


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## Stuu

The route after Poissy seems very odd, as it's a tramway why not send it through Achères instead of through a forest?


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## Ledindondelafarce

The station in Achères is supposed to offer connection from/to Cergy-RER A branch. I too think the tram should go on the D30, or at least stop around the Technoparc area, there is a high school there that attracts students from quite far away, and many factories and companies. 
It could be that Achères opposes the tram going through its commune, or that the planners only considered the tram going through Poissy because the commune fought for it, and didn't study any alternative from what was originally planned for Achères. Communes in the Grande Couronne tend to be quite bad in urbanism and to protect automobilists...


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## Bren

Tram 9


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## alexandru.mircea

^ nice vid. I'm happy for the improvement in access this new line will bring for the MACVAL, one of the best cultural institutions of the entire parisian region.


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## sven_engelen

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ Looks like (in a more "gigantic" & "cathedral" way) to what they have done in Rouen (Normandy) in the 90s :yes::
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ©http://www.trams-in-france.net


It also looks like the Spui station in The Hague:


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## cochise75

*T3b extension - Porte de Clichy*

Today :


Prolongation tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


Prolongation tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


Prolongation tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


Prolongation tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


Prolongation tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


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## Minato ku

RATP bus with Ile de France mobilités (new name of the STIF) livery.
Every new bus, trams, metro, RER and other suburban trains will have this livery, not matter the company operating it.


DSC051912 by Minato ku, sur Flickr


DSC051908 by Minato ku, sur Flickr


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## parcdesprinces

^^ Ugly buses, _"no matter the company operating it"_.


My two cents = puke


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## LtBk

How would you rank Paris Tram and Bus systems on a 0-10 scale?


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## Svartmetall

From my limited use - buses 6, trams 8. The trams are surprisingly quick and pretty frequent. The buses are a bit meh.


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## cochise75

*T3b extension - Porte de Clichy*


Prolongement tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


Prolongement tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


Prolongement tramway T3 - Porte de Clichy [Paris XVIIe] by Cochise75, sur Flickr


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## alexandru.mircea

LtBk said:


> How would you rank Paris Tram and Bus systems on a 0-10 scale?


The traffic is so heavy that taking the bus on a work day is almost pointless. I recently did 45 minutes for a 19 minute itinerary, at noon (so not rush hour). 

The tram is nice but a victim of its own success. The region has recently announced the acquisitions of new rolling material if I recall correctly.


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## Bren

New bus interior.


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## Neric007

Minato ku said:


> Alstom NTL Aptis, fully electric bus in test on line 21


Any update regarding those ?


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## Woonsocket54

^^ Those buses are pretty cool. Looks like they can drive them in either direction. There are only fronts, no rears.


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## Vaud

What exactly is the point of a bus that can be driven in both directions?


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## Falubaz

^^Nobody knows, but it looks cool.


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## parcdesprinces

...


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## Tramwayman

Woonsocket54 said:


> ^^ Those buses are pretty cool. Looks like they can drive them in either direction. There are only fronts, no rears.





Falubaz said:


> ^^Nobody knows, but it looks cool.


THey are driven only one direction  They do not have two cabins.


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## Master13

Tramwayman said:


> THey are driven only one direction  They do not have two cabins.


exact, but the wheels at both ends can rotate to facilitate turning.


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## Tramwayman

Master13 said:


> exact, but the wheels at both ends can rotate to facilitate turning.


Not much. 

You will see, no one will need this thing  Only Paris can buy them to support crappy and useless NTL department of Alstom.


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## VincentB_

Vélib (location of bicycles) is a part of the public transport network in Paris. 

After a change of contractor, all stations were to be refurbished and new cycles were put into service.

It's currently a total disaster and in fact an embarrassing scandal for the municipality. Most of the stations are out of order for different reasons. 

I tried to use the service two weeks ago near Javel - i was very surprised to see a station that was apparently functional - but...










Latest news about the "velibgate" (in french) :

https://france3-regions.blog.france...lib-les-bricolages-de-smovengo.html#more-4541


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## Antje

Hi again, which tram or tram express routes are under construction now, and which proposals have a realistic chance of going ahead?

I am currently reviewing the existing map on UrbanRail.net.


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## Minato ku

What is under construction

T1 to Asnières-Quatre Routes (opening at the end of 2018)	1km
T3b to Porte d'Asnières (opening in november 2018) 
T4 to Hôpital de Montfermeil (opening in 2020)
T9 
T12 Express

Which proposals have a realistic chance of going ahead ? I would say amost all of them. 

Proposal whose work will soon begin.
T1 extension to the east and to the west
T3b to Porte Dauphine
T10 (work will soon begin)
T11 Express eastern extension to Noisy le Sec
T13 Express


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## historyworks

Minato ku said:


> What is under construction
> 
> T1 to Asnières-Quatre Routes (opening at the end of 2018)	1km
> T3b to Porte d'Asnières (opening in november 2018)
> T4 to Hôpital de Montfermeil (opening in 2020)
> T9
> T12 Express
> 
> Which proposals have a realistic chance of going ahead ? I would say amost all of them.
> 
> Proposal whose work will soon begin.
> T1 extension to the east and to the west
> T3b to Porte Dauphine
> T10 (work will soon begin)
> T11 Express eastern extension to Noisy le Sec
> T13 Express


What is total Paris tram patronage now Minato ku? Is it still growing at the same rate?


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## Minato ku

114.8 km (97.5 km)
10 lines (8 lines)
189 stations (171 stations)
(RATP)

RATP tram lines (T1, T2, T3a, T3b, T5, T6, T7, T8)
283.7 million passengers
950,000 passengers per workday.

It's still growing but obviously less than the period between 2012 and 2016.
The network doubled in size during the period.


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## wgerman

VincentB_ said:


> Thanks for the pics. I was in Paris for three days but with only an afternoon of free time... and since i wanted to see the Joan Miro exhibition... hno:
> 
> 
> 
> No direct TGVs between the two stations, only RERs. However - since we don't know how much time to spare you have - you can stop at Gare du Nord to see the trains ; in fact the station is very popular among spotters (cause you can see there Eurostars, Thalys, and regular TGVs).
> 
> If you really want to make a trip, I second nanar's suggestion. Buy your tickets three months in advance, there : it will be much less costly.
> 
> https://www.oui.sncf/
> 
> (or you can spent a whole day in Lille : it's a very beautiful city btw)
> 
> 
> 
> You'd better buy a Navigo pass. A full pass costs 22,80 € for a whole week.


Thank you for your insights and answers.


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## wgerman

nanar said:


> Saying precisely :
> 
> 2) The station for changing from (RER) B line south branch, to "Orly airport people mover" (aka *Orlyval*) is "ANTONY" :
> https://en.parisinfo.com/transport/73375/Orlyval
> 
> 3) For TGV testing, you could book a trip, from Roissy CDG2 railway station to "Champagne-Ardennes" TGV station _(half an hour for 115 km)_ and back


Thank you for your replies.


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## wgerman

parcdesprinces said:


> I mean, in your face you glorious Texans!
> 
> 
> 
> :horse::horse:
> 
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> 
> Joke around, there are the _RER_ (aka suburban rail) from CDG to Inner-Paris !


:hmm:...........:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## VincentB_

Not a part of the network but very popular : the little train between _Porte Maillot_ and the _Jardin d'acclimatation_ (an amusement park in the west of Paris).

Pics taken a week ago.





























https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_du_jardin_d'acclimatation


----------



## redstarcastles

Buses this time:


5304 Porte d'Orléans 15 November 2018


4124 Rue du Père Corentin 15 November 2018


4119 Porte d'Orléans 15 November 2018


6186 École Militaire 15 November 2018 - Latest livery


6186 École Militaire 15 November 2018


DY-430-MG Rue de Clichy 15 November 2018


379 Rue de Clichy 15 November 2018


802 Rue Lepic 15 November 2018


741 Porte Vincennes 16 November 2018


6814 Porte Vincennes 16 November 2018

More ici:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/BusSceneEurope/BSE-Paris-November-2018/


----------



## GojiMet86

Is there an online roster for the bus fleet of Paris, or any other city in France?


----------



## Augusto

GojiMet86 said:


> Is there an online roster for the bus fleet of Paris, or any other city in France?


You'll find all those informations on http://www.busparisiens.fr/forum/ (in French)


----------



## Minato ku

There is also Siloe

https://www.busiloe.fr/php/requete-parc.php


----------



## historyworks

I'm surprised they're not using three-door buses in a big city like Paris where the buses must have big turnover of passengers along the routes.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ It's to lower fare evasion.


----------



## Slartibartfas

Just one more argument how systems without ticket checks upon entering each and every station/vehicle can be so much more efficient. Buses in Vienna have up to 4 doors. You can board and leave at any of them. This makes a huge difference especially during rush hour where you have massive passenger turnover at many stops. Limiting the number of doors you can enter to 2 or possible even 1 is really crippling their potential.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

There are four-door buses working for RATP as well and I can tell you as a user that there is no significant difference, nevermind a "huge" difference. Traffic, road congestion, lack of bus lanes and blocking of bus lanes are by far the biggest issue for the punctuality and regularity of bus service.


----------



## Slartibartfas

How is it working? Do you swipe a card at any of the four doors?


----------



## Khaul

What's the general opinion about the performance of the two Parisian Translohr lines in comparison to the conventional tram lines? Are there any plans to use the technology in new lines?


----------



## D K

It is not really about lowering fare evasion. It is more about traffic density. Megabuses can not fit all the routes.


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ But 3 doors instead of 2 don't need larger buses, they do improve turnover of people during rush hour however significantly.


----------



## nanar

Khaul said:


> What's the general opinion about the performance of the two Parisian Translohr lines in comparison to the conventional tram lines?


:down:
:storm:
:bash:


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Khaul said:


> What's the general opinion about the performance of the two Parisian Translohr lines in comparison to the conventional tram lines? Are there any plans to use the technology in new lines?


It is just another big waste of money....They thought to save money!Of course no connections possible between T1 and T5 in St.Denis.Besides I think that T5 translohr are too short and overcrowded.....As far as T6 is concerned I also think it was a mistake (many incidents),very narrow (2m20).I think the route (le tracé) could have been thought in a much better way.....Translohr sould be banned!


----------



## 00Zy99

With T6 they said that they needed Translohr because of the steep grades. Yeah, right. Steeper grades have been successfully operated in streetcar systems all over the world.


----------



## historyworks

Slartibartfas said:


> How is it working? Do you swipe a card at any of the four doors?


Yes they do significantly reduce dwell time if they're run like a tram or train with all-door entry and exit. It also helps to distribute the passenger load more evenly throughout the bus and thus to load fully to its capacity, thus maximising its productivity. With two-door rigid buses (or three-door artics) with a "cave" up the back, people are reluctant to go to the back in case they get trapped inside by the crowd when they want to get out. 

In terms of fare evasion, the operation needs to be backed up by a strong enforcement regime with frequent random inspections and savage fines that will make the transgressor's eyes water so that they won't want to do it again.

In Prague they are now using four-door 12 metre buses and five-door 18 metre artics as the standard buses. The SOR artics are quite well designed in that they still have quite good seating capacity in spite of the number of doors. Before this, they were using Ivecos/Irisbus like in Paris, but with three doors in the rigid bus and four in the artic.


----------



## nanar

Minato ku said:


> Look at what I've found in the 7th arrondissement next to Saint-Francois Xavier metro station.


Probably rails of lines 43 and 92, between Hôtel des Invalides and Gare Montparnasse
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Plan_STCRP_n°2_de_1923_(verso)_Trams_à_Paris.jpg












hseugut said:


> Paris was certainly even nicer with the old cobblestones and trams here and there ..


Yes ...
Rails of same lines, on avenue de Tourville, not far from Minato's pictures : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...24px-Paris_AvenueTourville_Tram_201708_03.jpg 
(Photo by *Le Zibou* - summer 2017 - _but looks quite like *1917*_)


----------



## nanar

error


----------



## parcdesprinces

Minato ku said:


> Look at what I've found in the 7th arrondissement next to Saint-Francois Xavier metro station.


LOL Minato.. you can find such tracks almost everywhere in Paris IM ... (as we already discuss several years ago.. don't you remember?)

"sous l'asphalte les rails"... 

More seriously, the longest still intact ones I remember of, very well from my childhood, were from Pte de La Muette to Alma (via Trocadero)... :yes:

Oh and there were also some visible old tram tracks in Auteuil/Boulogne (Pte-Molitor actually) back then, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Minato ku

nanar said:


> Probably rails of lines 43 and 92, between Hôtel des Invalides and Gare Montparnasse...


The line 92 still runs here, obviously as a bus line, it has the same route as the former streetcar. 
The line has been extented south from Montparnasse to Porte d'Orleans in April.

While some bus line follow the route of former tramway, most of the time, the number has changed.
The tramway 8 has been replaced by bus line 38.

Until April 2019, the bus 28 was quite similar to the former tram line 28 but the line has been shortened and no longer serves the south of Montparnasse. Replaced by line 92.
Bus line 91 still follows the same route (Montparnasse-Bastille) as former tram 91 but it has been extended to Gare du Nord in April.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Tram T1 will be extended one stop to the west to Asnières – Quatre-Routes on 2019.10.12

https://actu.fr/ile-de-france/asnie...e-tramway-t1-asnieres-sur-seine_27537541.html


----------



## DiogoBaptista

*Porte de Montreuil*

Porte de Montreuil, Citadis 402 numéro 336 Ligne T3B by Torsten Giesen, no Flickr















*Porte de Bagnolet*

D850_DSC_8333_20190924_002_DxO by Torsten Giesen, no Flickr


----------



## VincentB_

T6, _Viroflay RG_ :


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Crossing the canal de l'Ourcq in Pantin.










https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?


----------



## SebParis

First train for Tram 9:







__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/%5Burl%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FIDFmobilites%2Fstatus%2F1200402526664888320%5B%2Furl%5D

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/%5Burl%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FB_Lambert75%2Fstatus%2F1201799233793396738%5B%2Furl%5D


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

^^ Hey SebParis, to post a video you need only to put the ID of the video between the 




Same with the tweets :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200402526664888320

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201799233793396738

More photos :







































https://twitter.com/IDFmobilites/status/1201812705700720650


----------



## BillyF




----------



## Clery

*Last saturday, December 14th, was inaugurated the new branch of







to Clichy-sous-Bois.*

The new branch adds 4.7 km and 8 stations, it doubles the frequency as well, so its opening won't lead to less trams on the older branch.


Click to enlarge

Clichy-sous-Bois is famous for having been the starting point of the French riots in 2005, when 2 kids fleeing cops asking to check their id cards got lethally electrocuted after hiding in an electric facility. The tram was long awaited because the suburb is notorious for being particularly inaccessible by public transport from Paris.







will now allow a direct and relatively frequent connection to







(1 tram every 7 minutes).


----------



## Woonsocket54

*T4 tram stops that opened last month*

*République - Marx Dormoy*









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:République_-_Marx_Dormoy_Tramway_T4_2019_01.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:République_-_Marx_Dormoy_Tramway_T4_2019_02.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:République_–_Marx_Dormoy_Détail_Tramway_2019.jpg

*Léon Blum*








https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Infogare_Tramway_T4_Léon_Blum_2019_01.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Léon_Blum_Détail_Tramway_2019.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Léon_Blum_Tramway_T4_2019_01.jpg








https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Léon_Blum_Tramway_T4_2019_05.jpg








https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Léon_Blum_Tramway_T4_2019_06.jpg

*Maurice Audin*









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Maurice_Audin_Détail_Tramway_2019.jpg

*Arboretum*









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arboretum_station_détail_by_night_02.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arboretum_station_détail_by_night_03.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citadis_Dualis_Arboretum_Tramway_T4_2019_04.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citadis_Dualis_Arboretum_Tramway_T4_2019_03.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Plan_Tramway_T7_2019_02_(Arboretum).jpg


----------



## BillyF




----------



## Woonsocket54

Construction of eastern extension of T4 tram at Hôpital de Montfermeil station









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...Ligne_4_Hôpital_Montfermeil_Montfermeil_1.jpg


----------



## BillyF




----------



## BillyF




----------



## BillyF

Winter 2018


----------



## Minato ku

Solaris Urbino 18
Here used as a replacement bus for line 4, last week.


Solaris Urbino 18, RATP by Minato ku, sur Flickr


----------



## Tramwayman




----------



## BillyF

Paris Night Bus (Noctilien)


----------



## GojiMet86

BillyF said:


> Paris Night Bus (Noctilien)


Are those night replacements for the Metro?


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Yep, and RER.


----------



## EMArg

Some shots on the Buses of Paris:


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Construction work on the new














line seen from the sky :


----------



## SebParis

Article on Trams in Le Parisien: Le tramway trace son chemin en Ile-de-France

Two new studies have been announced this week:
1) Westward extension of T11 to Satrouville (connection to RER A)
2) Northward extension of T10 to Fort d'Issy-Vanves-Clamart (connection M15)

Opening dates for current tram projects:
T9 Paris - Orly Ville: Mid 2021
T13 phase 1 Saint-Cyr - Saint-Germain-en-Laye: End 2021/Start 2022
T10 Antony - Clamart: 2023
T12 Massy - Evry: 2023
T3b porte d'Asnières - porte Dauphine: 2024
T1 Bobigny - Val de Fontenay: 2025 (only till Montreuil)


----------



## Iron_

SebParis said:


> Article on Trams in Le Parisien: Le tramway trace son chemin en Ile-de-France
> 
> Two new studies have been announced this week:
> 1) Westward extension of T11 to Satrouville (connection to RER A)
> 2) Northward extension of T10 to Fort d'Issy-Vanves-Clamart (connection M15)
> 
> Opening dates for current tram projects:
> T9 Paris - Orly Ville: Mid 2021
> T13 phase 1 Saint-Cyr - Saint-Germain-en-Laye: End 2021/Start 2022
> T10 Antony - Clamart: 2023
> T12 Massy - Evry: 2023
> T3b porte d'Asnières - porte Dauphine: 2024
> T1 Bobigny - Val de Fontenay: 2025 (only till Montreuil)


The extension of T10 could be to FIVC *or* Issy RER.


----------



## ed24

Are there still no plans to eventually complete the 3a/3b loop to Pont du Garigliano?


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

No, it could also end up in a BRT line because of the low traffic expected.
















Work at the porte de Choisy northern terminus :
























Arthur Weidmann


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Est-ce que T9 et T3a seront reliés a la Porte de Choisy?


----------



## TER200

lechevallierpatrick said:


> Est-ce que T9 et T3a seront reliés a la Porte de Choisy?


No...


----------



## Clery

TER200 said:


> No...


It's been considered at a time to expand line T9 to Place d'Italie. In such a case, a connection with line T3a will be required. Unless if they go for an overpass which I doubt considering the current philosophy of the era (which we can basically sum up as concrete = bad , trees = good ). It would have been possible in the 1970's though.


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

The new depot.
































Source


----------



## fabricofparis

Hi, I don't know if this is the best place to post this? I'm writing a series on the tramways of Île-de-France, starting with the historical network and eventually moving to the modern one.
I just published part 2, about steam-powered trams: Tramways in Île-de-France: a history | Fabric of Paris


----------



## Antje

@Clery, It should not be too hard for the T9 to cross over the T3a at grade level, and then proceed via Avenue de Choisy. They've done it before with the T1 and T8 at Saint-Denis.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Metro Report:









Paris tram depot to feature lightweight jacks and bespoke turntable


FRANCE: The depot for the Paris Tram 9 project is being equipped with a set of 18 lightweight lifting jacks and a bogie turntable supplied by CIM and its UK subsidiary Mechan. The 10 km route T9 with 19 stops will connect Paris-Porte de Choisy to central ...




www.railwaygazette.com


----------



## urbanflight

Trial period on the Tram9 Paris-Orly ville


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349037998160171008


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Inside the new rolling stock.
































Source


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Est-ce que les quais en station auront la possibilité d'etre rallongés au cas ou le trafic le justifierait?Il s'agit quand meme d'une des lignes les plus fréquentées du réseau de la RATP....


----------



## 437.001

urbanflight said:


> Trial period on the Tram9 Paris-Orly ville
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1349037998160171008


How distant will be the T9 stop at Les Saules from the RER C station?
Is the line bound to be extended in the future to Orly-Ville RER C station?



ZeusUpsistos said:


> Inside the new rolling stock.


Is this the line from St-Germain-en-Laye to St-Cyr?


----------



## SebParis

437.001 said:


> How distant will be the T9 stop at Les Saules from the RER C station?


Map point: 48°44'49.2"N 2°24'59.2"E

Street View: Google Maps


----------



## Iron_

lechevallierpatrick said:


> Est-ce que les quais en station auront la possibilité d'etre rallongés au cas ou le trafic le justifierait?Il s'agit quand meme d'une des lignes les plus fréquentées du réseau de la RATP....


From which line are you talking about ?
T9 has already 43 m platforms and T13 will have few traffic.


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Iron_ said:


> From which line are you talking about ?
> T9 has already 43 m platforms and T13 will have few traffic.


I am talking about T9.43m platforms will be OK for the moment I guess,but what about higher frequentation than expected in the future?


----------



## Iron_

lechevallierpatrick said:


> I am talking about T9.43m platforms will be OK for the moment I guess,but what about higher frequentation than expected in the future?


43 m is the longest platform length in France, I don't see why this would be not enough for T9. Most of tram platforms are 32 m.


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

437.001 said:


> Is the line bound to be extended in the future to Orly-Ville RER C station?


It is envisaged that the line will be extended to Orly airport at some point, therefore crossing RER C at Orly-Ville as well as Pont de Rungis.



437.001 said:


> Is this the line from St-Germain-en-Laye to St-Cyr?


Correct.



lechevallierpatrick said:


> I am talking about T9.43m platforms will be OK for the moment I guess,but what about higher frequentation than expected in the future?


It will be the rolling stock with the highest capacity in the region along with the Citadis 402 on line T3. The expected traffic on the line is 17 millions passengers per year, to be compared with the 60 millions on line T3a. And if the line becomes saturated, there will always the possibility to increase the frequency by adding more trains.


----------



## TER200

Iron_ said:


> 43 m is the longest platform length in France, I don't see why this would be not enough for T9. Most of tram platforms are 32 m.


No, this would be forgetting the 65 m on T2.

(and to be pedantic, 45 m on T6 and in Strasbourg, soon 48 m in Nantes, and of course 84 m des T11, T12 (and T13 ?) ).


----------



## Iron_

TER200 said:


> No, this would be forgetting the 65 m on T2.
> 
> (and to be pedantic, 45 m on T6 and in Strasbourg, soon 48 m in Nantes, and of course 84 m des T11, T12 (and T13 ?) ).


Yes but T2, T11, T12 are more like trains than trams. T9 is not in the same configuration at all. It will runs in the middle of the car traffic and pedestrians.


----------



## TER200

Iron_ said:


> Yes but T2, T11, T12 are more like trains than trams. T9 is not in the same configuration at all. It will runs in the middle of the car traffic and pedestrians.


Just like both end parts of the T2, and part of the future T12.


----------



## Iron_

You can't compare T2/11/12 with T9.


----------



## TER200

Then what is this, if not "a tram running in the middle of cars and pedestrians" ?
















(source : transportparis - Le webmagazine des transports parisiens)


----------



## Iron_

Yes 20% of the route.
Si tu veux faire exprès de pas comprendre, bien à toi.


----------



## TER200

Iron_ said:


> Yes 20% of the route.


So what ? If it works, it works.


But all in all you're not wrong, trams longer than 44 m remain an exception in France, and T9 sticks to this rule.


----------



## SebParis

Les voies réservées aux bus se multiplient sur les autoroutes d’Ile-de-France


Une nouvelle voie réservée aux bus a ouvert la semaine dernière sur la N118. Après des débuts laborieux, ces files de circulation sur les gr




www.leparisien.fr


----------



## urbanflight

SebParis said:


> Les voies réservées aux bus se multiplient sur les autoroutes d’Ile-de-France
> 
> 
> Une nouvelle voie réservée aux bus a ouvert la semaine dernière sur la N118. Après des débuts laborieux, ces files de circulation sur les gr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.leparisien.fr


That's great news. Especially, considering that the transformation of the périphérique hasn't even started yet 😁✅♻

























Currently:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Urban Transport Magazine:









Chinese autonomous electric bus in service in Paris - Urban Transport Magazine


The Chinese manufacturer CRRC Electric has announced that its C12AI autonomous driving bus model officially started operation on bus route No.393 in Paris after obtaining UATC operation permit, marking a new milestone for the bus maker in its history. This is the first 12m autonomous bus...



www.urban-transport-magazine.com


----------



## Clery

urbanflight said:


>


What a joke, périphérique is at 95% either on viaducts, in tunnels or on trenches and they use a location where it's transitionning at grade level to show their "vision". A bus line on the périphérique makes no sense. There is already T3 on the same itinerary and I can't see people climbing stairs to reach a bus stop on a viaduct or waiting for it in a tunnel.

This conversion of périphérique is a severe mistake, and it's a public transit fanboy who's saying it. Covering it like it's been done in Boston should be the way to go.


----------



## fabricofparis

Clery said:


> There is already T3 on the same itinerary and I can't see people climbing stairs to reach a bus stop on a viaduct or waiting for it in a tunnel.


Rather than an orbital route doubling the tram lines, we could imagine express services using the périphérique for part of their journey.



Clery said:


> Covering it like it's been done in Boston should be the way to go.


Covering it will reduce noise pollution, but it will do nothing for air pollution. The motivation behind transforming the périph is to reduce the amount of vehicular traffic, and its associated harms, so close to the city centre. Burying it without reducing its capacity would do nothing to reduce traffic. Reducing throughput for cars, even if in sections that capacity is not used much by other users, is a good thing in itself imv. And of course the more trees – natural carbon sinks and temperature regulators – are planted the better.


----------



## Clery

fabricofparis said:


> Covering it will reduce noise pollution, but it will do nothing for air pollution. The motivation behind transforming the périph is to reduce the amount of vehicular traffic, and its associated harms, so close to the city centre. Burying it without reducing its capacity would do nothing to reduce traffic. Reducing throughput for cars, even if in sections that capacity is not used much by other users, is a good thing in itself imv. And of course the more trees – natural carbon sinks and temperature regulators – are planted the better.


Air pollution emitted by vehicles has already been considerably reduced and will continue being reduced in the years to come. However, it seems people are forgetting that road traffic isn't only used by selfish rich people who don't care of the planet but also for many essential activities (delivery, craftsmen, logistics...). These activities, together with buses, motorbikes, taxis and uber already make the majority of remaining traffic in Paris.

And I don't mention here that commute time is already an issue in Paris with public transports being saturated, therefore increasing social inequalities and pressures on housing prices. We can't constantly reduce transport offer in thinking there will never be any consequences.

This kind of policies actually incites activities to move more in the fringe of the metro area in places which are not served by public transit but can easily be reached by car, which is even counter-productive to reduce CO2 emissions.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ A couple a years ago I posted on this forum the findings that 52% of daily car travels inside Paris city limits are made up by well off people ("cadres") driving distances under 3 kilometres. It may look surprising at first sight but they are the ones making the majority of Parisian traffic. 

Reducing non-essential driving will be _beneficial_ for deliveries, services, taxis and buses etc, not the other way around.


----------



## Clery

alexandru.mircea said:


> ^ A couple a years ago I posted on this forum the findings that 52% of daily car travels inside Paris city limits are made up by well off people ("cadres") driving distances under 3 kilometres. It may look surprising at first sight but they are the ones making the majority of Parisian traffic.
> 
> Reducing non-essential driving will be _beneficial_ for deliveries, services, taxis and buses etc, not the other way around.


In reducing the size of roads, you reduce all drivings, not just non-essential ones. Plumbers, electricians, delivery men, they all say that Paris has been turned in hell, some plumbers even refuse to take customers in central Paris (It happened to me, I live in the 2nd arrondissement and for what it's worth I don't own a car). Furthermore, I would add that the Périphérique is actually used to *avoid* driving in Central Paris. If it's not faster to drive around Paris than through it, then you can actually increase traffic within the city.


----------



## SebParis

437.001 said:


> 🔼 🔼 🔼
> I guess line T3b will reach Porte Maillot before RER E does, won't it?


The current provisional dates for service are mid-2023 for RER E to Nanterre and end-2023 for T3b. So it will probably be close!


----------



## Woonsocket54

Contracts have been awarded for some of the work on the T3b extension in western Paris. It will open end of 2023.









Double win for Colas on Paris tram


Colas has won two contracts for the extension of the T3 tram in the west of Paris.




www.theconstructionindex.co.uk


----------



## Aim9X

Nice! Hopefully they will finish the loop this decade.


----------



## Clery

Aim9X said:


> Nice! Hopefully they will finish the loop this decade.


There is no plan as far as I know to join Pont du Garigliano to Porte Dauphine. From what I remember, it's been considered that trafic would be too low between both to justify a tram line.


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Drone views showing the current progress from Evry to Massy.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ what a huge line...


----------



## glksc

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1439293457235853315


----------



## TER200

Alstom's Citadis 305 selected for the line T1, to replace the TFS and serve the extensions (up to 120 trams) :








L'Ile-de-France passe commande à Alstom pour remplacer les tramways de la ligne T1


L'autorité régionale des transports Ile-de-France Mobilités et la RATP ont passé commande auprès d'Alstom Transport pour renouveler les rames de...




www.lefigaro.fr












Tramway : Alstom (encore) - transportparis - Le webmagazine des transports parisiens


Pour le coup, c'est une - demi - surprise. Après la tempête entre Alstom et la Région Ile de France à propos du marché du MI20 pour...



transportparis.canalblog.com


----------



## fabricofparis

A spot of history for anyone interested in the original Parisian tram network: the Belleville funicular tramway, Paris's answer to the San Francisco Cable Car, in operation between 1891 and 1924. https://fabricofparis.com/2021/10/08/tramways-ile-de-france-history-belleville-funicular.html


----------



## Woonsocket54

Bi-articulated buses will run on two BRT lines - T Zen 4 line (Viry-Chatillon <> Corbeil-Essonnes) and T Zen 5 line (Paris <> Choisy-le-Roi). 


















Paris: Bi-articulated e-buses for the first time and new tramways - Urban Transport Magazine


Île-de-France Mobilités, the authority responsible for transport in the Île-de-France region, and the urban operator RATP Paris are awarding two major contracts for high-capacity surface transport – to further expand and modernise the network: More comfortable trams Alstom Transport won a...



www.urban-transport-magazine.com


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## Woonsocket54

RATP has won the contract to operate the T10 tram, which is expected to open in summer 2023.



https://www.ratp.fr/groupe-ratp/newsroom/tramway/le-groupe-ratp-remporte-lappel-doffres-pour-lexploitation-du-tramway


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## Hourdel

Work on a new station called Massy-Europe :








The future platforms :








A bridge with a new road under the tracks (elevator access on the right) :








At the end of the year, the platforms will be finished, the embankment will be planted and the electrical connection will be made.
What the station will look like :


----------



## Axelferis

*T9





*


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Bonjour!Est-ce que les problemes rencontrés sur T9 peu apres son inauguration ont été resolus?Quelle est la fréquentation quotidienne du T9?Quelle est sa vitesse moyenne?Merci...


----------



## Hourdel

lechevallierpatrick said:


> Bonjour!Est-ce que les problemes rencontrés sur T9 peu apres son inauguration ont été resolus?Quelle est la fréquentation quotidienne du T9?Quelle est sa vitesse moyenne?Merci...


Je pense qu'il faudra attendre la fin de l'année voire l'année prochaine pour avoir les premiers chiffres publics.


----------



## Pierre50

Your answer relative to T9 issues just after inauguration is clear for me. We will wait for "official" figures on operations on this T9 line, operated by Transdev on behalf of IDFM.
Be carefull in your answers, English language should be used in this forum. Thanks !!


----------



## Hourdel

The last stop of the line at Saint-Germain-en-Laye is almost ready and the last fittings are being completed. Because the station is close to the château de Saint-Germain-en-Laye, special stones have been chosen for the walls and the platforms, and the shelters have a specific colour.
























There is a corridor that goes under the park between this station and the RER A station (the entrance is visible at the end of the platform on the right on the last photo).
It is also almost finished and the restoration of the park is in progress :


----------



## SebParis

Yesterday evening was a public meeting at Juvisy. The extenstion of T7 seems to be back on track.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461606057881522179








Projet Tram ligne 7 Prolongement Athis-Mons > Juvisy-sur-Orge


Depuis 2013, le Tram T7 relie Villejuif (94) au terminus actuel « Athis-Mons Porte de l’Essonne » (91).Le prolongement jusqu’à Juvisy-sur-Orge (91) permettra de relier le pôle d’emploi d’Orly-Rungis à la gare de Juvisy-sur-Orge, et assurera des correspondances avec les RER C et D, les métros 7...




www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr


----------



## fabricofparis

Hi Paris tram fans! You might be interested in this from my history of the Paris tramway. In today's instalment we look at the arrival of electricity to the network at the end of the 19th century.








Tramways in Île-de-France: a history | Fabric of Paris


Keeping current: electric trams come to Paris




fabricofparis.com


----------



## Hourdel

fabricofparis said:


> Hi Paris tram fans! You might be interested in this from my history of the Paris tramway. In today's instalment we look at the arrival of electricity to the network at the end of the 19th century.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tramways in Île-de-France: a history | Fabric of Paris
> 
> 
> Keeping current: electric trams come to Paris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fabricofparis.com


Your blog seems very interesting !


----------



## Hourdel

14 km of tracks are already laid between Évry-Courcouronnes and Épinay-sur-Orge. 6 km of tracks are still to be laid.

In Évry-Courcouronnes, all the rails have been laid since late spring 2021 and the road surface was completed in summer 2021.
In Ris-Orangis, track laying has been completed between Avenue de l'Orme à Martin and Avenue Joliot-Curie. Teams are now working on laying the tracks as far as Chemin du bois de l'hôtel-Dieu.
In Grigny, track laying began in August 2021 and is continuing between the A6 exit ramp to the RN441 and Chemin du Plessis :









In Viry-Chatillon, it has been completed between the RD 445 junction and the Coteaux de l'Orge :









In Morsang-sur-Orge, the construction of a retaining wall to Viry-Chatillon is currently underway. Once completed, the laying of tracks in this sector will be able to start in 2022 (Here Parc du Château station) :









In Savigny-sur-Orge, the construction of the retaining wall along rue des Rossays is underway and precedes the track-laying stage.
In Épinay-sur-Orge, the first rails were laid in October along the RD 257. However, the bulk of the laying will take place in the first quarter of 2021 :

















Déjà plus de 14 km de rails posés - Tram T12


14. C’est le nombre de kilomètres de rails déjà posés sur les 20km de la nouvelle ligne de tram T12 (en prenant en compte le double-sens de circulation) qui constituent le tracé sur le réseau urbain entre Évry-Courcouronnes et...




tram12-express.iledefrance-mobilites.fr


----------



## Hourdel

The first Dualis tramway tests began last Monday on the rail section of the new Ligne 13.





































As a reminder, this new line is composed of two sections :

A rail section between Saint-Cyr and Lisière Pereire, part of the Grande Ceinture Ouest, with railway signalling, 25 kV catenaries, where trams will run on the left
An urban section between Lisière Pereire et Saint-Germain-en-Laye, with tramway signalling, 750 V catenaries, where trams will run on the right.
On the last picture, the tram is in the last station of the rail section. The tracks going on the right are at the beginning of the urban section, the tracks leading to a cul-de-sac on the left are at the beginning of phase 2 of the line, which is yet to be funded.
The trials on the two sections will normally begin in early January.
Let's hope this complex system will work fine !








Découvrez la première rame du tram T13 sur le tracé ! - Tram T13 - Saint-Cyr - Saint-Germain


Ce lundi 20 décembre, la toute première circulation d’une vraie rame du tram T13 a eu lieu sur le tracé ! Pour le démarrage des essais dynamiques, la première rame a effectué un premier trajet d’essai sur les anciennes voies rénovées de...




tram-t13-stcyr-stgermain.iledefrance-mobilites.fr












T13 : début des essais - transportparis - Le webmagazine des transports parisiens


Les premiers essais ont débuté ce 20 décembre sur la partie Grande Ceinture de T13, entre le dépôt des Matelots et l'ancienne gare de Saint...



transportparis.canalblog.com


----------



## tojaniety

A tram through the fields? Weird.


----------



## Hourdel

tojaniety said:


> A tram through the fields? Weird.


In reality it is more a light rail (what is called a tram-train in France) than a tram. The rail section was a branch of the Transilien Ligne L until july 2019 with low passenger numbers. It was decided to extend it with new urban sections and a cheaper rolling stock able to be used as a tram and as a train (Citadis Dualis).


----------



## fabricofparis

Happy new year everyone! I just published a piece that might interest some of you, about the Traverse minibus lines that serve Paris's outer neighbourhoods: I rode all of Paris's tiny buses, so you don't have to | Fabric of Paris


----------



## Hourdel

Since the beginning of december, some trams have been given an original decoration :




These trams exhibit a rhinoceros rolling on a skate board, with a sentence stating : "be careful : a tram weighs as much as 30 rhinoceroses". Indeed, collisions with cars have been frequent since the opening of this new line. This decoration is a part of a larger preventing campaign taking place since september with the distribution of leaflets to pedestrians and car drivers and the presence of warning signs at crossings.









Despite these incidents, the opening of this line is a success with approximately 60,000 passengers per working day (compared to the pre-covid forecast of 70,000).


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

The new rolling stock, which was selected after a vote. It is very similar to the Citadis 405 running on T9.








T1 : découvrez le visage de votre futur tramway


C'est fait ! Vous avez voté... et choisi le visage du tramway qui roulera prochainement sur la ligne T1. Découvrez tout de suite la proposition qui a reçu le plus de voix.




www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr


----------



## ajw373

ZeusUpsistos said:


> The new rolling stock, which was selected after a vote. It is very similar to the Citadis 405 running on T9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T1 : découvrez le visage de votre futur tramway
> 
> 
> C'est fait ! Vous avez voté... et choisi le visage du tramway qui roulera prochainement sur la ligne T1. Découvrez tout de suite la proposition qui a reçu le plus de voix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr


Similar to a 405? It is a 405. X05 is the family name for the fifth generation Citadis.


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## ZeusUpsistos

Yes, what I meant is that this particular design will be very similar, almost identical, to the one on line T9.








Par Cramos — Photographie personnelle, CC BY-SA 4.0, File:Citadis 405 n°911 à Porte de Choisy par Cramos.JPG - Wikimedia Commons
















New renders of the future cable car which will connect Créteil and métro line 8 to Villeneuve-Saint-Georges (but not quite the RER D station).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488831480281325577


----------



## TER200

ajw373 said:


> Similar to a 405? It is a 405. X05 is the family name for the fifth generation Citadis.


No.
Aesthetically it is very similar to the particular version running on T9.
But it is not a regular Citadis 405, it has a different bogie architecture meaning no overhand and the ends and two double doors directly at the end (like in Strasbourg and soon Nantes).


----------



## ajw373

TER200 said:


> No.
> Aesthetically it is very similar to the particular version running on T9.
> But it is not a regular Citadis 405, it has a different bogie architecture meaning no overhand and the ends and two double doors directly at the end (like in Strasbourg and soon Nantes).


My bad, I didn’t realise it was 5 section tram until I saw that render so it will be a 305. 

BTW there is no such thing as a regular 405 (or 305)! The whole idea of the Citadis platform is it can be customised to suit the needs of the client. 

Regardless of front design, bogies, door location if it is an 7 segment X05, it is a 405 if it’s a 5 segment X05 it’s a 305. 

X05 refers to the 5th generation, hence the last number in the specific model is a 5.


----------



## TER200

ajw373 said:


> BTW there is no such thing as a regular 405 (or 305)! The whole idea of the Citadis platform is it can be customised to suit the needs of the client.


Yes there is.
Like 95% of the Citadis (non Dualis, Spirit...) have the first bogie several meters behind the cab, after a first passenger door. Only details are customized, not the general layout. All the x02 and x05 have exactly the same architecture :
end car on a bogie with one door - intermediate car with 2 doors in a large room and no wheel - [car with a bogie and no door - intermediate car with 2 doors in a large room and no wheel](repeat if needed) - end car on a bogie with one door.








Those are the "official" 205, 305 and 405 variants shown in the product brochure.


The exception is the Citadis 403 in service in Strasbourg, the identical (but nameless afaik) version ordered for Nantes and no the shorter one for the T1 :
end car with a small swivel bogie under the cab and then 2 doors in a large room - [car with a bogie and no door - intermediate car with 2 doors in a large room and no wheel](repeat if needed) - car with a bogie and no door - end car with a small swivel bogie under the cab and then 2 doors in a large room.








It's more similar to the older Citadis 401, but shortened with no overhang.

This mean one more bogie for equivalent length, but zero overhang at the end of the tram (required on some networks designed around older trams) and one more large room with 2 doors (but one less car with seats above the bogie).
It's still unusual (not only among Citadis, also Combinos, Urbos and Flexitys are usually of the first type), although Alstom recently got 2 new contracts for the 403-ish and 303-ish variant which is only in service in one city.


----------



## Tramwayman

ajw373 said:


> My bad, I didn’t realise it was 5 section tram until I saw that render so it will be a 305.
> 
> BTW there is no such thing as a regular 405 (or 305)! The whole idea of the Citadis platform is it can be customized to suit the needs of the client.
> 
> Regardless of front design, bogies, door location if it is an 7 segment X05, it is a 405 if it’s a 5 segment X05 it’s a 305.
> 
> X05 refers to the 5th generation, hence the last number in the specific model is a 5.


Not really, Alstom does not do any deep configuration in terms of technology or body of a tram which is a pitty.

Almost all standard citadis trams have the same characteristics when it comes to curvature.
Turning radii of 25 m (20 in depot) with extremely reduced speed is the key factor Alstom either does not take parts in tenders when it comes to other networks with tighter curves or is unable to win against other tender participants because normally cities with existing networks order different designs, very customized ones which Alstom doesn't want to do.

There are many networks with curves tighter than 25 or 20 meters.
There is why Citadis we see mostly in French networks or french monopoly countries in Africa on newly designed networks exclusively for citadis trams.
Rarely you will see Citadis elsewhere, where in many cases they haven't prooved with a good name.

Another parameter worth mentioning is the steep gradient where Alstom claims that steel wheel trams can only go up to 8.5% which is the limit only for them but not for the other manufacturers. Cause we have modern systems with steeper gradients. Depends on many factors.

It is a positive thing that ultimately Alstom understands that standard citadis is not the best case, and now more often offers the 403 series new version as seen in Nantes or T1 in Paris.
This I think should be the base option for the manufacturer. It can negotiate curves faster and does that with very high stabilization of the whole body, whereas standard ones swivel head sections violently while entering the curve or leaving it. Also, they are friendlier with track wear.


----------



## Minato ku

A bus, I have spotted not long ago. Electric bus Alstom Aptis on line 56.
Made by NTL, it's the same part of Alstom that were making Translohr.
Production of Alstom Aptis will end by 2022 due to low number of order.


Alstom Aptis by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Alstom Aptis by Minato ku, sur Flickr


----------



## TER200

Tramwayman said:


> It is a positive thing that ultimately Alstom understands that standard citadis is not the best case, and now more often offers the 403 series new version as seen in Nantes or T1 in Paris.
> This I think should be the base option for the manufacturer. It can negotiate curves faster and does that with very high stabilization of the whole body, whereas standard ones swivel head sections violently while entering the curve or leaving it. Also, they are friendlier with track wear.


I'm not totally sure of this. In Strasbourg drivers say that the front cab violently moves sideways when the small bogie enters the curve (maybe they are nostalgic for the Eurotrams, that are very stable but have basically no suspension).



Minato ku said:


> Production of Alstom Aptis will end by 2022 due to low number of order.


Some were already removed from service, apparently due to bad reliability or steering problems.
This sounds very Phileas-ish (after the infamous dutch bus that pretended to be a tram with vitual rail).


----------



## NCT

Interesting that traditional rail manufacturers are trying to enter the electric bus market with mixed (or limited?) success.


----------



## Tramwayman




----------



## Hourdel

Construction of platforms in the new stations.


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Work around Hôpital Béclère station.
























Arthur Weidmann


----------



## fabricofparis

Hi tram fans! I thought you might appreciate this, the latest instalment in my history of the tramways of Île-de-France. Covering the tumultuous 1910s and the golden age of the 1920s.

Tramway's in Île-de-France: a history - the golden age


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## 437.001

Hourdel said:


> From Versailles to Créteil, with Ligne 15, it will soon be possible to take either RER C or Transilien N, make a change in Issy or Clamart and then go with Ligne 15 to Le Vert de Maisons or Créteil l'Échat. That would be normally a 40 - 45 minutes journey.


Oh blimey.  Of course, that's it.
The scale of the Grand Paris Express is such, that many of us can't fathom it yet.

The second half of my answer to your post gets posted on the RER thread, as that's about the Choisy to Massy branch, so nothing to do with trams.


----------



## Hourdel

Work at Parc des sports station :
















According to the newspaper Le Parisien, the line will be extended northward to a station on Ligne 15, either Clamart (with a connection to the Transilien N) or Issy (with a connection to the RER C). Due to narrow and winding streets, a part of this extension may be underground. IDFM's choice will be made public in May.


----------



## Minato ku

Western extension : Porte d'Asnières to Porte Dauphine

Porte d'Asnières

Boulevard Berthier, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Between Porte d'Asnieres and Porte de Courcelles, tracks have been laid.

Boulevard Berthier, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Boulevard Berthier, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Boulevard Berthier, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Porte de Courcelles
This use to be the entrance of a tunnel

Avenue Paul Adam, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Approaching Porte de Champerret, tunnels are being filled

Avenue Stéphane Mallarmé, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Porte de Champerret, you can see the former road tunnels

Boulevard Gouvion-Saint-Cyr, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Boulevard Gouvion-Saint-Cyr, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Beams to support the new ground for the tram because of the presence of the subway tunnels.

Porte de Champerret, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Porte de Champerret, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Porte de Champerret, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Porte de Villiers station will have a single island platform due to the narrower width of the boulevard.

Boulevard Gouvion-Saint-Cyr, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Boulevard Gouvion-Saint-Cyr, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Porte des Ternes

Boulevard Gouvion-Saint-Cyr, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Approaching Porte Maillot

Boulevard Gouvion-Saint-Cyr, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

At Porte Maillot with the whole square under construction work due to the construction of the RER E, currently there aren't work for T3b.

Boulevard Gouvion-Saint-Cyr, 17e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Just before Porte Dauphine, another road tunnel is being filled up.

Boulevard de l'Amiral Bruix, 16e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Boulevard de l'Amiral Bruix, 16e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

What you see here, it's the RER C tunnel at Porte Dauphine

Place du Maréchal de Lattre de Tassigny, 16e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr

Site of Porte Dauphine tram station

Boulevard Lannes, 16e, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Porte Dauphine, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


Porte Dauphine, T3b by Minato ku, sur Flickr


----------



## Ghostpoet

Somewhere I saw that the opening of the T13 St-Cyr – St-Germain-en-Laye was planned for 13 May, but it is postponed...

Ghostpoet


----------



## ed24

Minato ku said:


> Porte de Champerret, you can see the former road tunnels


Was this also done on the other stages of Line 3a/3b or unique to this extension? I remember cycling down some of these road tunnels back in the day on a Velib


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## TER200

AFAIK, yes they removed the tunnels all along the line 3. Congestion is supposed to reduce road traffic... but it also delays the trams sometimes.


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## Minato ku

Almost all, they have kept tunnels at Porte de la Villette and Porte de Pantin. (I think they will keep the tunnel at Porte Maillot as the tram doesn't run along it).

But indeed the underpass at Porte d'Italie, Porte de Charenton, Porte de la Chapelle, Porte des Poissonniers, Porte de Clignancourt, Porte de Saint Ouen, Porte de Clichy, Porte d'Asnières have all disappeared with the tram.


----------



## 437.001

*T13
Saint-Nom-la-Bretèche
Forêt de Marly*


----------



## John.S

Hourdel said:


> These trams exhibit a rhinoceros rolling on a skate board, with a sentence stating : "be careful : a tram weighs as much as 30 rhinoceroses"


This has been a long standing slogan here in Melbourne on our tram network, the photo below goes back as far as 2011.










It is interesting to note, Keolis has operated the entire tram network down here (quite successfully) for over 12 years now, and has just started running T9 in Paris (since its inception).


----------



## Hourdel

The inspiration is obvious indeed .


----------



## John.S

Hourdel said:


> The inspiration is obvious indeed .


I can't wait to see it in person later this year. Been a while since I've been able to leave this penal colony.


----------



## Clery

Hourdel said:


> The inspiration is obvious indeed .


It's more a trademark than inspiration considering it is the same operator Keolis in both cases. Maybe Keolis does that as well on other networks they are operating.


----------



## Minato ku

Indeed, it's the same in Lyon, Bordeaux, Angers, Dijon...


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Arthur Weidmann


----------



## Hourdel

Two options have been selected for the northern part of the line (the southern part is currently under construction). Both foresee a terminus at Clamart (interchange with Métro 15 and Transilien N). The first option is an underground route (with two intermediate stations) while the other option would be above ground and form a loop (with four intermediate stations). These options will soon be submitted for public consultation.


----------



## Axelferis




----------



## Hourdel

All buses of this model (149 buses) were removed from service after two such fires occurred. The manufacturer (Bolloré) has said that the cause of the fire had been found but RATP and IDFM are still waiting for the results of their own enquiry. RATP still operates nearly 350 other electric buses.


----------



## Hourdel

Citadis 402 with IDFM livery, a different nose and a new interior design (like in T9 trams). Nine new trams of this type have been running on the line since the end of March, in preparation for the forthcoming extension.


----------



## Hourdel

Tests run well, final works have been completed, so this new line can open. The inauguration will take place on 6 July.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1532299894869872645


----------



## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼
Great news. 
Three questions:
1) By which year do they plan to extend it to Poissy and Achères Ville?
2) How far is the distance between the tram platforms and the RER C/Transilien platforms at St-Cyr?
3) And between the tram platforms and the RER A platforms at St-Germain-en-Laye?


----------



## TER200

437.001 said:


> 2) How far is the distance between the tram platforms and the RER C/Transilien platforms at St-Cyr?


You can see this in the last photo.
OpenStreetMap (the tram uses the tracks from the north via the sharp curve)


----------



## Hourdel

437.001 said:


> 🔼 🔼 🔼
> Great news.
> Three questions:
> 1) By which year do they plan to extend it to Poissy and Achères Ville?
> 2) How far is the distance between the tram platforms and the RER C/Transilien platforms at St-Cyr?
> 3) And between the tram platforms and the RER A platforms at St-Germain-en-Laye?


1) The second step is expected to open in 2027.
2) I think there are nearly 100m between the platforms.
3) There is a 130m-long passageway under the park. You can clearly see it on google map when it was under construction (tram station on the north side) :


----------



## 437.001

*T13 express
Saint-Germain-en-Laye - Saint-Cyr*

The new line T13 has opened.
It links St-Germain-en-Laye station (connection to RER A), to St-Cyr station (connection to RER C, Transilien N, Transilien U), in the western suburbs.
It reuses the former Grande-Ceinture Ouest branch of Transilien L between the stations Noisy-le-Roi and St-Germain-en-Laye - Grande Ceinture (now called Lisière Pereire), via St-Nom-la-Bretèche (where it connects to Transilien L), and which has now been extended to St-Cyr.
Plus a new tramway section between Lisière Pereire and St-Germain-en-Laye station of RER A.

It is planned that the line will be extended to Poissy and Achères-Ville in the coming years.





Video by *ErebosSan*


----------



## Minato ku

The opening day was pretty chaotic as some protestors (residents of Bailly who complained about the noise) blocked the traffic.

The ride that should have taken 30 minutes took 2 hours. 😓


T13 by Minato ku, sur Flickr


T13 by Minato ku, sur Flickr


T13 by Minato ku, sur Flickr


T13 by Minato ku, sur Flickr


----------



## Hourdel

A video showing the passageway between the RER A station and the T13 station at Saint-Germain en Laye :




With the help of the moving walkway, it takes less than four minutes from platform to platform. I have seen screens displaying the departure timetable for the RER A trains but apparently there is no such screen for the tramway.


----------



## fabricofparis

Hello tram fans! Last week I published this piece about the decline and fall of the Paris tramway in the 1930s.
The story starts in the late 1920s, a golden age for the tramway with 1100 km and 720 million passengers per year. But car-centric ideology was already starting to take hold, and by the late 1930s the region would be almost entirely devoid of trams.

It's part 7 of a longer history, which I'll be continuing with the modern tram network. Hope you enjoy!


----------



## Hourdel

The first rails of the eastern extension were laid this summer, in Montreuil, in a place where there was a motorway that crossed the city.























A map of the extension (the rails on the pictures are at Rue de Rosny, where there will be the maintenance depot) :
















Île-de-France Mobilités


🚊Prolongement du Tram T1 : les travaux se poursuivent 🚧 A Montreuil, les premiers rails ont été posés 🎉 Au cours des prochains mois les rails seront installés au fur et à mesure de la construction de...




www.facebook.com












Mustapha Iski on LinkedIn: Prolongement du T1 : Pose des premiers rails Vendredi 29 juillet 2022…


Prolongement du T1 : Pose des premiers rails Vendredi 29 juillet 2022, les premiers rails pour la station "Rue de Rosny" ont été posés. Pour rappel le…




www.linkedin.com












T1 Bobigny - Val de Fontenay


Le prolongement du tramway T1 à Val-de-Fontenay



www.t1bobigny-valdefontenay.fr


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

Drone views all along the future line.


----------



## Hourdel

Progress of the track laying near Porte Maillot.






























Source


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Will these street feature only tram lines properly reserved for them and no car traffic?


----------



## Hourdel

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Will these street feature only tram lines properly reserved for them and no car traffic?


It depends on the width of the streets but car traffic won't be removed. There is a street where only a one-way car lane will be kept but in other streets there will be enough room for car lanes in each direction and a cycling lane. And the tramway tracks are separated from car traffic. 
You can see some renders of what it will look like in the project's website.
Porte de Villiers : Porte de Villiers - T3 Le tracé









Porte d'Asnières : Porte d'Asnières - T3 Le tracé










Porte des Ternes : Porte des Ternes - T3 Le tracé (here a one-way car lane limited at 30km/h)


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## _Night City Dream_

So beautiful! Thanks.


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## fabricofparis

Hi friends! Apologies if this has been asked and answered before, but is the T3b extension still on track to start operating in 2023?


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## Minato ku

End of 2023, I've heard early 2024.


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## _Night City Dream_

alexandru.mircea said:


> I recently took the T6 from Viroflay to Vélizy. The terminus station is just gorgeous! For the moment I claim #1 spot for it in my top of most beautiful stations that are not métro stations. The architecture is very simple actually, it's just walls made of loose concrete shapes, lighted from bellow and put behind glass.
> 
> If you don't remember it:
> 
> 
> PARIS--606 arr Viroflay Rive Droite IB by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.monversailles.com/tramway-t6-viroflay-velizy-chatillon/


It is almost as beautiful as the best Moscow metro stations.


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## Hourdel

The first tests on this new line that will open next year :


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