# Brazil's Favela Housing Program



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

cello1974 said:


> ... As in every city in the world. The walled city in HK is also horrible. Maybe not as violent, but people housing on poor ships, in cages and the walled city are also existent in HK!!! Why do you take Brazil as an example, with Cape Town, Jo'burg, Bogotá or even Cairo being more violent and dangerous???


That's because this thread is about Brazil's slum problem and favela housing program. Problems in other cities deserve different threads of their own.

Talking about problems is the first step in finding solutions. Ignoring it will make them far worse. I doubt Brazil is taking ignorance as a remedy at this point.


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

hkskyline said:


> That's because this thread is about Brazil's slum problem and favela housing program. Problems in other cities deserve different threads of their own.
> 
> Talking about problems is the first step in finding solutions. Ignoring it will make them far worse. I doubt Brazil is taking ignorance as a remedy at this point.


And why is a Hongkonger so busy about solving a 40 year old problem in Brazil??? Doon't forget: SP has already reduced favela dwellers from 2.4 million to 800,000 (which is still a bunch, thinking that Frankfurt has about 643,000 inhabitants, but not as much as in Calcutta, Manila or Jakarta!),...


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

You can't compare Rio to all other Brazilian cities - not even to Sao Paulo! Its problems and amount with organized crime, corruption and street violence is NOT representative to the rest of Brazil and it has different reasons.

The other problem is that the whole world only focusses on Brazil (especially Rio) when it's up to Carnaval, Football, Povertry (especially street children - which datas are mostly extremly exagorated as even the Unicef had to confess) and Drugwars! That's NOT BRAZIL! - These are only aspects of a very diverse lifestyle and culture. Go and experience yourself!

But I also know it from Switzerland - acording to international media we are just a bunch of money-laundring xenophobic millionaires :rofl: (oh talking about it I will in a few hours have a meeting with some FIFA representatives! TRUE!)


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

Kuesel said:


> You can't compare Rio to all other Brazilian cities - not even to Sao Paulo! It's problem with organized crime, corruption and street violence is NOT representative to the rest of Brazil and it has different reasons.
> 
> The other problem is that the whole world only focusses on Brazil (especially Rio) when it's up to Carnaval, Football, Povertry (especially street children - which datas are mostly extremly exagorated as even the Unicef had to confess) and Drugwars! That's NOT BRAZIL! - These are only aspects of a very diverse lifestyle and culture. Go and experience yourself!


YOU SAID IT ALL!!!!!! :applause: :applause: :applause:


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

Thanks! I had to edit my post a bit as you could see


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

It'll be a sad day if everyone is too busy worrying about what's in their backyard only and letting the rest of the world rot. 

People should *read* the contents and not make weird extrapolations from what is on print with what's in their imagination. If the article talks about Rio, then why assume it's the same as Sao Paulo? If the article talks about solving the slum problem in Brazil, then that's what it means. Don't try to tie things together when they shouldn't be. Besides, a lot of the information are event-driven. If it's not pretty then that's the way it is. 

The key thing is to *understand* what is being shown in this thread. 

Just because there are shootouts in Rio's slums doesn't mean the rest of Brazil is slum-free. It doesn't mean the slum problem can be ignored while the police barge in to curb crime. What is the big picture out of all this?

Think of the cause of the problem. While other places may not see the same effects, are the causes linked? Are the problems similar but manifest themselves in different ways?


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

... I mean that someone who has never been there shouldn't make comments on topics he doesn't even know! You should LIVE in Brazil to understand it. Cities like Curitiba export their urban planning into the rest of the world. They invented biarticulated busses you can find today in Germany, Turkey, Asia and the US. South Korea plans a new capital - that shall be be built after the example of Curitiba! There are cities with a poverty rate of as less as 3%. Some cities like Quissama, have a GDP per capita as high as 100,000 dollars!!! Mentioning one side, mention the other also,...


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

THAT's the thing! It's not about the article itself - it IS a sad news, but it's about aspects of how media focus on specific aspects of another country. WHY is it for example that Curitiba's urban planing and transport system is not as famous as the lesser world-important crime in Rio's favelas? Why every newspaper writes about Ronaldinho and Co. but doesn't mention that Sao Paulo is the biggest industry city with the highest GDP in the continent? And why all the tourist guides show indios on their front cover if they are making up only a very small part of the population - And NOT all Brazilian girls are big-bottomed mulatas. Or as Maria Rita sings: 
"Nem toda brasileira é bunda
Meu peito não é de silicone"


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

^^ That is soooo right,...  :lol:


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

But for many people the own misery is easier to stand if they care about other people's misery! :lol:
For the very most people here in Europe this would be considered a slum also, since most of the apartments are smaller than 35m² for 2 or more people:







:lol:


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

cello1974 said:


> ... I mean that someone who has never been there shouldn't make comments on topics he doesn't even know! You should LIVE in Brazil to understand it. Cities like Curitiba export their urban planning into the rest of the world. They invented biarticulated busses you can find today in Germany, Turkey, Asia and the US. South Korea plans a new capital - that shall be be built after the example of Curitiba! There are cities with a poverty rate of as less as 3%. Some cities like Quissama, have a GDP per capita as high as 100,000 dollars!!! Mentioning one side, mention the other also,...


By that logic, the United Nations should close down now. The folks in New York shouldn't approve humanitarian assistance to Darfur because not all of them have been there. The IOC should not consider any bids from Brazil because not all members who vote get to go there. That doesn't make sense at all. Does Rio's slum violence problem have anything to do with Curitiba urban planning? Does good planning in one city lower another's crime rate? Do mass murders in one country make shootings in another acceptable? 

Enough with the nationalism. Is there anything logically wrong with the reporting? Are the facts wrong? Are there no slums in Brazil? Was there no shooting violence? Is this all an illusion made up by the Western media?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Kuesel said:


> THAT's the thing! It's not about the article itself - it IS a sad news, but it's about aspects of how media focus on specific aspects of another country. WHY is it for example that Curitiba's urban planing and transport system is not as famous as the lesser world-important crime in Rio's favelas? Why every newspaper writes about Ronaldinho and Co. but doesn't mention that Sao Paulo is the biggest industry city with the highest GDP in the continent? And why all the tourist guides show indios on their front cover if they are making up only a very small part of the population - And NOT all Brazilian girls are big-bottomed mulatas. Or as Maria Rita sings:
> "Nem toda brasileira é bunda
> Meu peito não é de silicone"


The media is not going to report everything is fine in the news. Unfortunately, we're surrounded by a lot more bad news than good. We are not supposed to blindly believe what is being reported either. However, following the information in this thread, there is a mix of good (housing program) and the bad (manifestation of the problem via crime). Perhaps those who are aware of what's going on can share their insights in why this is not a problem in their opinion, or what can be done to make it go away.

If people are going to lay judgment on a city and a country based on one tad bit of news, then that's their ignorance. It doesn't alter the facts. People should strive to get a balanced opinion. Hence, everyone is welcome to contribute *constructively* rather than try to stop it because it may shed bad light on a country or a city. 

Brazil's slum problem is indeed something that needs to be tackled. Rest assured, if I come across good news like that first article, then it will show up here.


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

You are distorting everything we say here!!! But why do you care about Brazil, if there are places that are worse off??? Don't you have any problems in front of your own overcrowded aprtment skyscrapers? Don't you have e serious surpluspopulation problem? Isn't population density a serious threat to health (SARS) and well-being in HK? What is sofascinating about wan...ing at the serious problems of other countries that neither ME nor YOU will solve. There have already been people more competent than you who tried to solve the problem. And Rio has an exceptional problem that you do not have elsewhere: Druglords climbed up the hills along with the slums in which they hide. They pay schools, kindergartens and child care for those women who work. They have banks and post offices. In exchange, the poor protect the druglords, who seem to be some kind of Robin Hood for many of the poor people. And when they tried to clear some of the slums that are held by druglords, people didn't want to leave them as they have all their necessities satisfied. Other slums could get cleared easily,...
And szch organs like IOC or UNO etc have local assistants,... YOU don't. And YOU are no institution and not one 1,000,000 that important as you find yourself,... :lol:


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

cello1974 said:


> You are distorting everything we say here!!! But why do you care about Brazil, if there are places that are worse off??? Don't you have any problems in front of your own overcrowded aprtment skyscrapers? Don't you have e serious surpluspopulation problem? Isn't population density a serious threat to health (SARS) and well-being in HK? What is sofascinating about wan...ing at the serious problems of other countries that neither ME nor YOU will solve. There have already been people more competent than you who tried to solve the problem. And Rio has an exceptional problem that you do not have elsewhere: Druglords climbed up the hills along with the slums in which they hide. They pay schools, kindergartens and child care for those women who work. They have banks and post offices. In exchange, the poor protect the druglords, who seem to be some kind of Robin Hood for many of the poor people. And when they tried to clear some of the slums that are held by druglords, people didn't want to leave them as they have all their necessities satisfied. Other slums could get cleared easily,...
> And szch organs like IOC or UNO etc have local assistants,... YOU don't. And YOU are no institution and not one 1,000,000 that important as you find yourself,... :lol:


So we shouldn't care about the rest of the world because it's not in our backyard and we are helpless to solve it? So we should all live in our shoeboxes myopic of what's happening in the rest of the world because we shouldn't care whether they're starving to death, shooting each other to death, or hacking each other to bits. That type of complacency has contributed to enough miseries in recent history, including Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfur. 

Brazil's slums are not exactly the world's most fascinating urban problem, but it *is* a problem. This section is about urban issues, where people come together to discuss issues that are not necessarily only confined to their backyard. Does a discussion imply the problem will be solved right away? I won't be so idealistic to think so. However, perhaps out of the discussion, something meaningful can come out, and other people can share their thoughts, experiences, and knowledge about the subject. 

By the way, these articles are from reputable international newswires and come straight out of the origin because they have offices there. Don't confuse over who *wrote* them. 

Just because some people decide to play Robin Hood, steal from the rich to feed the poor, doesn't mean the shootings and violence, is all of a sudden, not a problem anymore.

so do *you* think the violence in these slums are justified, that *nothing needs to be done*?


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

You have enough time doing research on all the negative things going on in the favelas, why not do some research on the pogress that some favelas are making? Our Brazilian friends have posted some examples of projects for reorganizing the shanty towns, you can do the same. But it seems that you love exploiting all things negative. 
slag...


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

hkskyline said:


> So we shouldn't care about the rest of the world because it's not in our backyard and we are helpless to solve it? So we should all live in our shoeboxes myopic of what's happening in the rest of the world because we shouldn't care whether they're starving to death, shooting each other to death, or hacking each other to bits. That type of complacency has contributed to enough miseries in recent history, including Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfur.
> 
> Brazil's slums are not exactly the world's most fascinating urban problem, but it *is* a problem. This section is about urban issues, where people come together to discuss issues that are not necessarily only confined to their backyard. Does a discussion imply the problem will be solved right away? I won't be so idealistic to think so. However, perhaps out of the discussion, something meaningful can come out, and other people can share their thoughts, experiences, and knowledge about the subject.
> 
> ...


NO! But I think that there are already specialists from Barcelona and Chicago in Sao Paulo, Rio and other people more competent than you or me, who know better how to solve the problem. Incompetence can even worsen the problems! I never ignored it, but it is stupid to think that we can solve the problem discussing it on a PC... Become a politician and solve it...


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

cello1974 said:


> NO! But I think that there are already specialists from Barcelona and Chicago in Sao Paulo, Rio and other people more competent than you or me, who know better how to solve the problem. Incompetence can even worsen the problems! I never ignored it, but it is stupid to think that we can solve the problem discussing it on a PC... Become a politician and solve it...


Then having a thread like this with the relevant background information would prompt them to come in to discuss how they have tackled their slum problems. Nothing wrong with posting the news and a few articles with information. Politicians are bad candidates to solve problems anyway. Experts in the field should be heavily involved and then they should influence the politicians' action plans.

By the way, one interesting method of solving the *root cause* of these slum problems is micro-credit, which has been fairly successful in South Asia. By providing small loans to the poor, they are able to establish small businesses to sustain themselves. While slums are not likely going to disappear in that part of the world any time soon, at least they don't have to live through the poverty cycle for another few generations. Once the wealth effect takes off, then there will be more impetus to leave the slum and redevelop it.

Discussing the problem won't necessarily create a solution that can be put into action right away, but surely, there'll be things to learn in the process. Governments and NGOs depend on discussions to iron out action plans as well, much like what we do here, but with much more publicity.


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## cello1974 (May 20, 2003)

hkskyline said:


> Then having a thread like this with the relevant background information would prompt them to come in to discuss how they have tackled their slum problems. Nothing wrong with posting the news and a few articles with information. Politicians are bad candidates to solve problems anyway. Experts in the field should be heavily involved and then they should influence the politicians' action plans.
> 
> By the way, one interesting method of solving the *root cause* of these slum problems is micro-credit, which has been fairly successful in South Asia. By providing small loans to the poor, they are able to establish small businesses to sustain themselves. While slums are not likely going to disappear in that part of the world any time soon, at least they don't have to live through the poverty cycle for another few generations. Once the wealth effect takes off, then there will be more impetus to leave the slum and redevelop it.
> 
> Discussing the problem won't necessarily create a solution that can be put into action right away, but surely, there'll be things to learn in the process. Governments and NGOs depend on discussions to iron out action plans as well, much like what we do here, but with much more publicity.


Which already exists,...


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

hk and cello: sorry but you two get a bit too enthusiastic and impuslive about the topic. You both make some points but it's all about facts and not intuitions and feelings.

Clear: there ARE indeed people who can and will solve the problems in the world better than we do (MAYBE ) but we are here for discussing as well - exchange experiences and oppinions and not making the world a better place ourselves (unfortunatly).

Bosnia or Rwanda are also totally one-sided items in the press BTW. There is a lot of positive developments going on that no one cares. Sex and violence sells. Symptomatic: Paris Hilton even in Europe took the bigger media attention than the G8 or the European Constitution. And THAT'S the sad thing.

Rio ALWAYS had problems and these enterings in Favleas ALWAYS happen. Why is it only NOW in the news???? - Isn't there an international even in the near future? THINK!


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

cello1974 said:


> Which already exists,...


I presume you are based in Brazil. What other methods have been employed to eradicate these slums? I doubt any government has tried to raze them and force the people out. There must've been some 'soft' measures implemented over the years.


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