# Fines in your country



## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

To continue the discussion started offtopic on the german thread, here we can discuss about all concerning fines.

I start saying that know two different kind of fine system (I ignore if exists others): The first is like we have in Italy, Germany, France.... and it consists that in a fix amount for kind of infraction. The second like in Finland and Switzerland where the fine is proportional to the income of the offencer.

Personally, I find the finnish system (Finland was the first country to introduce it in 1921) right and democratic cause it hits everybody in the same way. A fine is a punishment for something wrong you did and not a privilege that u can decide to pay or not. So a fine should be a deterrent to don't do it again. It's pretty evident also that same fee ticket for everybody can't be a real deterrent and real punishment for those person with money, since 100 or 200 euro for them is nothing.

Starting from this principle I think is why points on the driving license system worked quite well (I say quite cause in Italy there's a privacy question that makes it don't work as it should): rich or not, everybody has the same points.


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

I've only paid one in 30 years of driving.

About $30. Caught by a (rare-in-the-U.S.) speed camera, here: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=38.972572,-77.07716&spn=0.009325,0.016458&t=m&z=16 (At Connecticut Avenue and Newland St. The map centers there *if* you hide the side panel.)

Limit of 30 m.p.h. (50 km/h) on a six-lane, divided state highway that's a major connector between downtown Washington and the Beltway. Yes, it's passing through a residential neighborhood, but really. People can keep their kids from playing in that street (or more likely, in that neighborhood, instruct the maid to do it).

The locals - presumably knowing about the camera - had all religiously slowed down to 30 while yours truly thought "this is ridiculous" and managed to pass a few of them. Doing 49 at the moment the camera got me. (I would not have done a sustained 49 there.)

This was Inauguration Day 2009 and I was trying to get downtown in time to stand in the cold by the Lincoln Memorial for two hours.


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## Corvinus (Dec 8, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> The second like in Finland and Switzerland where the fine is proportional to the income of the offencer.


Switzerland - again, like many other countries, e.g. Austria, Germany ... - has a system of "anonymous payment of fines" for "light" infractions, e.g. excess of speed up to 15km/h in built-up areas, or 25km/h on a motorway. If the driver is not known to the authority, the car registrant receives the bill by mail, and the fine can be paid by no matter whom. Infractions paid in the range of this "anonymous-payment" process will not be recorded in any driver history or criminal record. The advantage for the authorities is simple and fast handling. 
Fines eligible for the "anonymous-payment" process are fixed-value (up to CHF 260,-); in this case, the economic situation of the trespasser is not being considered.

For more serious infractions, the "anonymous-payment" process is not applicable and a criminal investigation will be started. In court, the economic situation of the suspect is now being considered. The sum of the imposed penalty, however, depends also on many other factors taken into consideration.

Also, if payment of a fine eligible for "anonymous payment" is declined, the ordinary investigation will be started. So well-off people better think twice before recurring against a fine in the "anonymous-payment" range where their income and fortune does not count. If they lose in court afterwards, the new fine (now considering their wealth) may result in a manifold of the former one.


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## MattiG (Feb 11, 2011)

Satyricon84 said:


> Personally, I find the finnish system (Finland was the first country to introduce it in 1921) right and democratic cause it hits everybody in the same way.


Well, well...

The Finnish system has been criticized heavily because it may lead to absurd situations.

The scale is twofold: Certain smaller crimes are handled by flat rate fines up to 150 EUR. Otherwise, the fines are proportional to the person's net income. There is no upper limit, and therefore even rather a minor incident may lead to a penalty being beyond any reasonable level. For example, one person got fines of 112,000 EUR because of driving 82 km/h at speed limit of 60 km/h. If the speed had been 80 km/h, only 115 EUR would have been payable.

One key problem is to define what is the net income. The system is based on salaried persons' income structure, but there are many people groups like physicians, entrepreneurs, farmers, investors, etc, whose income figures are not at all comparable. The poor guy happened to get his 112,000 EUR fine after selling his company, and having an income peak that year.

Another source for critics is that the system treats one-time accidental criminalists equally to those breaking the rules regularly. For a normal crime, the penalty scale is progressive, but for traffic crime, the maximum is always payable without any grace. There is something similar to the Flensburg point system in Germany: If you get fines three times a year or four times during two consecutive year, you will lose your driving license for a month. Every non-major offense is equal: not using the safety belt, overspeed of 30 km/h, or having tons of excessive load in the trailer.

The key driver of the system is collecting the money. About 80% of all the penalty money comes from the traffic crime. Increasing the traffic safety has no priority.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

I've got the first fine when i was 17 y.o. driving my scooter, due unreadable license plate. There was still the Lira as currency and it was around 30.000 lire (around 16€ of now - but not the cheapest fine is 39€)
I've got in Verona my first fine driving my car for forbidden park. I parked it with two wheels on the sidewalk and I've got a fine of 72€. This cause 36€ were for the forbidden park and other 36€ cause it was on the sidewalk.
In Milan I got a fine cause I passed in a traffic limited zone. It was night and I didn't know so much well the streets so I didn't see the ZTL signal. The fine was 81€ (70€ for the infraction + 11€ cause it arrived at home! :bash
In Siegen, Germany I've got my last fine for speeding. I was driving 67 Km/h in a 50 Km/h. I paied for it 25€ directly to the officer. 

In Italy in general you can't pay a fine to the officer like in Germany, but there are however some exceptions like if you drive a vehicle > 3,5 t. If you are extraUE citizen driving a foreign license plate vehicle also you must pay on the place


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## Corvinus (Dec 8, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> I've got the first fine when i was 17 y.o. driving my scooter, due unreadable license plate. There was still the Lira as currency and it was around 30.000 lire (around 16€ of now - but not the cheapest fine is 39€)


I had one of these cheapest ones in Genova on the windshield a year ago. "Forgot" to pay, and nothing arrived since then (car was foreign-plated). 
Not like Austrian _Bezirkshauptmannschaften_, who send recorded, _remise en main propre_ letters abroad -at least to addresses in German-speaking countries- because of fine amounts of 20-30 €!


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

MattiG said:


> Well, well...
> 
> The Finnish system has been criticized heavily because it may lead to absurd situations.
> 
> ...


Yes I've heard of that guy driving 82 Km/h on 60 Km/h. From what you say it's evident also that finnish system needs maybe some revision in the way to avoid absurd situations, but in generally I consider it still the most efficient. 
Absurd case happened in our system too like this one: 


> L'a.d. di Telecom preso a 311 km/h
> Ruggiero: "Stavo provando la macchina"
> 
> Quando hanno visto quel puntino avvicinarsi e hanno letto la velocità sul display dell'Autovelox, i poliziotti di pattuglia sulla A26 a Carpignano Sesia, nel Novarese, hanno pensato a un errore: 311 chilometri orari. Hanno estratto la paletta e fermato l'auto: al volante del bolide, una Porsche Carrera, l'a.d. di Telecom Italia, Riccardo Ruggiero. "Stavo provando l'auto", si è giustificato il manager.
> La sua candida ammissione di colpa, però, non è servita a salvarlo: gli agenti gli hanno affibbiato una multa di 357 euro e gli hanno immediatamente scalato 10 punti dalla patente. E ora Ruggiero rischia la sospensione della patente da 1 a 3 mesi: a decidere in merito sarà la prefettura locale, che nel prendere il provvedimento terrà conto della velocità registrata dal telelaser, installato su una piazzola a Carpignano Sesia lungo la Voltri-Sempione.


Pratically the article says that the CEO of Telecom was caught driving his Porsche at 311 Km/h on the A26. His justification was "I was just checking the car". For driving 181 Km/h he got only a fine of 357€ (He earns it in half day...) and a suspension of the driving license from 1 to 3 months (it means he'll hire a driver for this period and Telecom pays for it). No jail, no ban and no a real pecuniary punishment that would make him to remember to don't do it again. It's sign that something in this system doesn't work too....


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm all in favour of fines proportional to income, otherwise they are useless to rich, especially for parking violations, where there is no punishment other than the monetary fine.

And they should cut off one or two points to those who park in dangerous places, if they can see the driver entering or leaving the vehicle. You still lose points if you don't use seat belts or motorbike helmet (and you're endangering only yourself) but not if you endanger others by improper parking.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

^^ Actually in Italy you lose two points for parking only if you park in handicapped reserved places or in reserved lanes for buses or trams, taxies park places, bus stops or private transits



> Sosta nelle corsie riservate al transito degli autobus o veicoli su rotaia; sosta o fermata negli spazi riservati a veicoli per persone invalide o in corrispondenza di rampe, scivoli o corridoi di transito; sosta negli spazi riservati alla fermata degli autobus o dei taxi [art. 158, comma 2 lettere d, g, h].


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

Satyricon84 said:


> ^^ Actually in Italy you lose two points for parking only if you park in handicapped reserved places or in reserved lanes for buses or trams, taxies park places, bus stops or private transits


But no if you block driving lanes, cycleways or sidewalks.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

italystf said:


> But no if you block driving lanes, cycleways or sidewalks.


Blocking sidewalks is not possible otherwise in cities like Milan almost everybody would lose points cause of it. And you cant blame too much citizens if the administration in past didn't care to provide enough parking places in relations of dwelling projects that they did.


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

In the UK fines do not take income into account, which means that the rich don't care of course.

I remember reading an interview with I think chef Gordon Ramsey where he happily admitted that he completely ignored parking restrictions in London, he just parked wherever was convenient for him when visiting his restaurants etc even if it meant blocking the sidewalk, parking in no parking areas etc. He just paid any fines he got and treated it as a cost of doing business, probably passing on the costs to his customers!


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Jonesy55 said:


> I remember reading an interview with I think chef Gordon Ramsey where he happily admitted that he completely ignored parking restrictions in London, he just parked wherever was convenient for him when visiting his restaurants etc even if it meant blocking the sidewalk, parking in no parking areas etc. He just paid any fines he got and treated it as a cost of doing business, probably passing on the costs to his customers!


When I worked for a company that had around 100 agents in the whole territory, fines that they got with cameras passed all from our office (all cars were registered with the company's name). Useless to say that for few important agents the company paied the fines (and in some cases, they save them points on their license don't declaring who was driving), while for all others they had to pay from their pockets.


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

I was "caught" running a stop sign late last September (I actually went made a very fast stop) and a cop was behind me, the cop fined me $129, I contested it and went to court...in January, and ended up paying $50. It's all a scam to make money, especially in suburban areas with little crime filled with cops that have nothing better to do. They need to make their quotas at the end of the month. There is no "system" and the fine is totally at the discretion of the cop who is fining you. You could pay $20, or you could pay $500. 

Now a lot of the intersections around my area have cameras, but I don't obviously run red lights, that is simply dangerous.

Only time I've ever paid a ticket before. Oddly enough, I've technically sped in front of cops several times before without problems. I think if you move with traffic and lots of people are speeding at the same time, it makes it hard for a cop to just pick on you. That or I've been lucky? :dunno:


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Xusein said:


> Only time I've ever paid a ticket before. Oddly enough, I've technically sped in front of cops several times before without problems. I think if you move with traffic and lots of people are speeding at the same time, it makes it hard for a cop to just pick on you. That or I've been lucky? :dunno:


A friend of mine has been fined for speeding by police after he crashed alone into a guardrail's roundabout, just for the lenght of tyres signs on the asphalt. He had an old car without ABS. In my opinion such fine could be not valid since you can't estabilish the exact speed from the lenght of the signs, but I could be wrong....


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

I've had a couple of parking tickets, that's it, no speeding fines or anything else.

One was right outside my house, there were no street spaces left so I had to park overnight on a double yellow around the corner. Wasn't blocking anybody but by 0800 next morning a ticket had been slapped on the windscreen :rant:

The standard fine is £60, reduced to £30 if you pay within 14 days..


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## Corvinus (Dec 8, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> A friend of mine has been fined for speeding by police after he crashed alone into a guardrail's roundabout


In Switzerland, a fine for "failure of mastering the vehicle" (_Nichtbeherrschung des Fahrzeuges_) may be given in such a case - independently of the speed issue. This fine may also apply if you fall from your bicycle, e.g. when drunk.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

My father got two tickets at the same time while he came visiting me in Bologna, when I lived there. One ticket was for entering ZTL (limited traffic zone, only for residents), and the other was for parking in a ZTL. We thought it was stupid, because of course if you park in a ZTL you have first to enter it... however, 2 separate tickets and 70€, if I remember correctly.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

g.spinoza said:


> My father got two tickets at the same time while he came visiting me in Bologna, when I lived there. One ticket was for entering ZTL (limited traffic zone, only for residents), and the other was for parking in a ZTL. We thought it was stupid, because of course if you park in a ZTL you have first to enter it... however, 2 separate tickets and 70€, if I remember correctly.


70€ should be only if you enter in ZTL. I took it 6 years ago and it was 70€, + 11€ for shipping costs cause it arrived at home. Now instead it's 87€ if you enter in the ZTL. However for what I know, seems not in all cities the fine is the same: in Napoli you get 74€, so maybe In Bologna they had another fee. Parking fine instead was 36 until last year, now it's 39€


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

^^ This happened like 10 years ago. I remember 36+36 euros, but I may remember wrong.


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ This happened like 10 years ago. I remember 36+36 euros, but I may remember wrong.


At any rate the fine for ZTL is insane and injust for the seriousness of the offence. The same amount applied for these fines too: driving without glasses or contact lens (required on the license), driving with a temporary lack of phisical requirments (example driving with broken arm), driving without seat belts and driving a moto without helmet. All things adamantly more dangerous than to drive in ZTL zone but fined in the same way.


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## CNGL (Jun 10, 2010)

In Catalonia there is a great way to avoid parking fines: Language issues . There, almost all signs are written only in Catalan, and if you get a fine you can argue the sign was not written in Spanish (As it MUST be). They must have to let you get away without the fine.

And I like the way they fine in Switzerland. They calculate the fines in base to the income. Some time ago, I've heard that someone, due to speeding, got a 200,000 EUR fine! I don't know if higher fines had been reported.

Back to Spain, I really like this speed camera. Since it's located just after 70 km/h limit sign, it's the national champion in number of fines. I only have driven through it once with a van that was caught twice in two days by that camera, and I have seen it catching a car.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> At any rate the fine for ZTL is insane and injust for the seriousness of the offence. The same amount applied for these fines too: driving without glasses or contact lens (required on the license), driving with a temporary lack of phisical requirments (example driving with broken arm), driving without seat belts and driving a moto without helmet. All things adamantly more dangerous than to drive in ZTL zone but fined in the same way.


It's not that ZTL fines are too high compared to others. To me, other fines are too low compared to ZTL fines.



CNGL said:


> In Catalonia there is a great way to avoid parking fines: Language issues . There, almost all signs are written only in Catalan, and if you get a fine you can argue the sign was not written in Spanish (As it MUST be). They must have to let you get away without the fine.


Really? LOL! I guess the only difference between Catalan and Castilian is an apostrophe or something like that...


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## CNGL (Jun 10, 2010)

^^ Yup! But is not that the difference. Spanish and Catalan are two different languages. The official language in all Spain is Spanish (Castilian), so all signs in the country must be written in Spanish. But in Catalonia, where both Spanish and Catalan are official, the later one is far more used. I've read that someone is exploiting this "bug": If he sees a no parking sign, and the explanation below is only written in Catalan, he parks where is forbidden.


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

CNGL said:


> In Catalonia there is a great way to avoid parking fines: Language issues . There, almost all signs are written only in Catalan, and if you get a fine you can argue the sign was not written in Spanish (As it MUST be). They must have to let you get away without the fine.
> 
> ....


In the mid-80s, someone contested a ticket in the Canadian province of Manitoba on the grounds that the law he'd supposedly violated was passed by the legislature in English only, rather than English and French.*

The Supreme Court of Canada ordered the province to pass French versions of all its existing laws, and pass them in both languages in the future. They didn't let this guy off his ticket. (They'd have had to invalidate every ticket, and not just tickets, going back nearly a century....) The case now shows up in texts to explain why Manitoba has to do this.


*The legal issue, if anyone's interested (and if I'm remembering correctly what I read), is that the law creating the province required its legislature to pass laws in both languages. 20 years, and lots of settlers, later, the now-overwhelmingly-English-speaking province decided it didn't need to do that any more. 95 years after that, this guy challenges this ticket and it goes to the Supreme Court of Canada, which says Mabitoba couldn't unilaterally change a requirement imposed on it by Federal law.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

I know all of this, but all the Catalan signs I saw were completely understandable by Castilian speakers. I mean, is that so difficult to understand "aparcament prohibit" instead of "Aparcamiento prohibido"?



CNGL said:


> ^^ Yup! But is not that the difference. Spanish and Catalan are two different languages. The official language in all Spain is Spanish (Castilian), so all signs in the country must be written in Spanish. But in Catalonia, where both Spanish and Catalan are official, the later one is far more used. I've read that someone is exploiting this "bug": If he sees a no parking sign, and the explanation below is only written in Catalan, he parks where is forbidden.


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## Penn's Woods (Apr 8, 2010)

g.spinoza said:


> It's not that ZTL fines are too high compared to others. To me, other fines are too low compared to ZTL fines.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? LOL! I guess the only difference between Catalan and Castilian is an apostrophe or something like that...


Actually, written Catalan looks to me like a cross between Spanish and French. Interesting-looking language, too, which I'd learn if I had the time. Just for fun. (I have weird ideas about what's fun.)


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Penn's Woods said:


> Actually, written Catalan looks to me like a cross between Spanish and French. Interesting-looking language, too, which I'd learn if I had the time. Just for fun. (I have weird ideas about what's fun.)


I see very few differences between the two. For an Italian mothertongue Catalan is easier to read, but probably Spanish is easier to speak.


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## Corvinus (Dec 8, 2010)

CNGL said:


> In Catalonia there is a great way to avoid parking fines: Language issues . There, almost all signs are written only in Catalan, and if you get a fine you can argue the sign was not written in Spanish (As it MUST be). They must have to let you get away without the fine.


COOL, good to know when I'm visiting Barcelona some day!



CNGL said:


> And I like the way they fine in Switzerland. They calculate the fines in base to the income. Some time ago, I've heard that someone, due to speeding, got a 200,000 EUR fine! I don't know if higher fines had been reported.


Could you mean this one? It is a well-known case of a Swedish Gypsy speeding at 290km/h on the motorway near Fribourg. 

http://archives.24heures.ch/actu/suisse/fribourg-chauffard-290-kmh-ne-presente-tribunal-2011-10-04

The fine they indicated is "only" about CHF 60'000,- however. Although it was done in a rather expensive sports car (initially seized by the police), the trespasser's lawyer says his client is living on welfare at some CHF 1'000,- per month.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

My fines record in Europe: 

Belgium:
Traveling at 140 km/h on the E40 near Jabbeke, on my way to Calais to get a ferry. A motorcop pulls me into the services at Jabbeke, and buys me a coffee inside. After chatting about my job and his family life, he still issues a 200 euro on the spot fine. 

E411 between Namur and Arlon, a week later. Again doing 140. Unmarked car guides me off the motorway, and again a 200 euro on the spot fine.

France:
Belgian/French border Tournai-Lille. French customs decided I bought too many cigarettes in Luxembourg, and made me pay the duty for it. Never got done for speeding in France. 

Italy:
After delivery in Monaco, I was on my way to Rome. I wasn`t in a hurry, and wanted to swim in the sea. Drove into Portofino on the Italian Riviera, and did not notice the signs, prohibiting vehicles over 7 metres. My van is 7.5 metres, and the local police charged me 75 euros. 

Netherlands:
Doing 130 instead of 100 on the A27 at Utrecht, I ended up paying 280 euros on the spot fine. Even though I have A Dutch passport, I was living in England (still am partly) and was driving an English reg van, hence the reason I had to pay the fine on the spot. 

Sweden:
Doing 130 instead of 110 on E4 near Linköping. Was on my way to Stockholm to catch a ferry to Helsinki. Got issued with a ticket, and had to pay roughly 300 euros at a local postoffice. 

England:
Every once in a while I get a ticket, usually pay 60 pounds fixed penalty. 

Austria:
Zell am Ziller: 10 km too fast, 10 euros to pay.
A12 Innsbruck-Wörgl: Speeding and tailgathing. 60 euros to pay. 

Germany:
In Germany all vans are supposed to have a logbook, with driving times written on it. Don't have one, and police in Straubing passed my details on to the BAG. 4 weeks later I receive a penalty notice of 80 euros at my home in England. 

That's all folks...


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

^^ I guess your boss didn't pay for the Italian ticket.


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

g.spinoza said:


> ^^ I guess your boss didn't pay for the Italian ticket.


He surely doesn't know about its existence.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

I did tell him, but no - he did not pay for them. But I can go wherever I want in that van, as long as I get the deliveries done on time.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

It was not technically a fine, but once (2007) I had to pay CHF 500 for getting my car back from the impounding lot. I had traveled to Zurich with friends, the hotel in question (in the middle of an industrial park near the airport) had its own garage full, the receptionist told me I could leave the car in a place marked with yellow line in front of the hotel (in the hotel's driveway, no other building in front, no other property accessed from there - look it here http://goo.gl/maps/ngKM).

Next morning - guess what - the car wasn't there. For two minutes I thought of theft, then rushed to the reception where the lady told me they called a towing company because my car (+ 3 other cars that were parked in the same "forbidden" area) was blocking the hotel shuttle.

Long story short I did complain to the manager (it was an hotel employee who told me to park there), and after a negative review on a website + email to the costumer service the refunded me CHF 400.

The only upside is that at the time CHF 500 was less then € 300 :O


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Road_UK said:


> I did tell him, but no - he did not pay for them. But I can go wherever I want in that van, as long as I get the deliveries done on time.


I guess you also have to pay for fuel in your detours?


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Nope, never.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Road_UK said:


> Nope, never.


Can you suddenly drive from Mayrhofen to - say - Faro, Portugal, on your company's expense account for the lulz?


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

I could I suppose...
But whenever I go up to Scandinavia, I take a little diversion via Sneek, NL for example, to see my family, and they know that, and they don't mind that. One time I delivered in Monaco on a Friday, and been told to stay in France as there would be a reload for me in Paris the following Monday. But I didn't want to stay in my van all weekend, so I went to Mayrhofen instead (this was before I moved here)
My fuelcards:







This one pays the toll in France and Spain as well...








Cheaper diesel at unmanned stations. 







pays the tolls in Italy.


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## italystf (Aug 2, 2011)

Road_UK said:


> pays the tolls in Italy.


Telepass is faster


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Road_UK said:


> I could I suppose...
> But whenever I go up to Scandinavia, I take a little diversion via Sneek, NL for example, to see my family, and they know that, and they don't mind that. One time I delivered in Monaco on a Friday, and been told to stay in France as there would be a reload for me in Paris the following Monday. But I didn't want to stay in my van all weekend, so I went to Mayrhofen instead (this was before I moved here)


Why don't you use something like this

http://www.tolltickets.com/default.aspx?lang=en-GB&mnu=c


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