# THE NETHERLANDS | Railways



## Cpt.Iglo

The Netherlands got many old trainstations. Some examples:

Amsterdam:

















The Hague:

















Groningen:

















Haarlem:









Zwolle:










There are also some smaller cities with old trainstations:

Leeuwarden









Valkenburg









Middelburg










That's it. I hope you like the Dutch trainstations


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## iampuking

Do you have any pics of the trainsheds?

And yes, they are very beautiful and well maintained.


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## Hybrid 87

is it just me or do they all look a bit the same???


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## iampuking

There is a similar style, but they're decorated differently.


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## GVNY

Hybrid 87 said:


> is it just me or do they all look a bit the same???


Just you, unfortunately.


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## SmarterChild

I thought the trainstation in the hague is a large shabby concrete building? and is it true the Amsterdam Centraal is actually sinking?


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## Momo1435

^^
Good that you say that because the 1st picture is from The Hague HS (Hollands Spoor) station and the second is the interior from the much newer Den Haag Centraal station. Centraal is indeed a shabby concrete building, although they're renovating it right now. They are the two main stations of The Hague.


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## ChrisZwolle

Zwolle has a nice trainstation indeed  It has been build in 1864, and is thus now 144 years old. Though it's not a very large trainstation, it is one of the most important in the Netherlands, it has 7 (future 8) radiating railway lines, though the importance of the railway yard is diminishing. There are plans to rehabilitate the whole area called "Spoorzone", or "railway zone" in English. 

It has also an important busstation, with buses sometimes queuing up the area, though it is mostly used by students and the elderly.


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## Crownsteler

iampuking said:


> Do you have any pics of the trainsheds?
> 
> And yes, they are very beautiful and well maintained.


Amsterdam Centraal:








notice the flying wheel on the left shed










Den Haag Hollands Spoor:









Haarlem:


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## Tubeman

Crownsteler said:


> Amsterdam Centraal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> notice the flying wheel on the left shed


Those trainshed roofs remind me a lot of Newcastle Central (UK)


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## Caisson Boy

*Muizenberg Station*

Well, OK, it's not in Holland, but there is a strong Dutch heritage in many of our buildings in Cape Town. This is Muizenberg Station, on Cape Metrorail's Southern Line:


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## Mathijzzz

The station of Apeldoorn still has it's monumental station but it's completely renovated and placed into a new trainstation. 

How it is now: 









What it was:









I


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## woutero

I couldn’t find a thread on Dutch Railways, so I thought I’d start one. If there's already one: feel free to ignore this.

The Dutch Railway system is not as extensive as the railway systems in neighbouring Belgium and Germany (in route length per inhabitant or route length per square kilometer) but is nevertheless quite extensive and VERY heavily used.

It consists of about 2.800 km of railway track of which 75% is electrified, and 2/3rds has double, triple or quadruple tracks. It serves 383 train stations. The tracks are owned and maintained by ProRail, a state controlled company. 

The system is operated by different companies, of which the NS (Nederlandse Spoorwegen – Dutch Railways) is the largest. NS operates all main lines of the network. NS’s only shareholder is the State of The Netherlands. NS also owns and operates most railway stations. Other companies that operate (regional) railways include Arriva, Connexxion, Synthus and Veolia.

There are a couple of different kinds of trains:

Stoptreinen/sprinters are local trains, which stop at each stop
Sneltreinen stop at fewer stops
Intercity trains only stop at intercity stations
On most stretches the maximum speed is 140 km/h. Due to heavy use and a mix of local and fast trains, higher speeds would result in lower capacity.

The Dutch railway system is said to be the most heavily used system in Europe, and third in the world (source wikipedia, not sure which would be first and second). Its usage much resembles the use of the highway network (about which there is an extensive thread on this forum): very heavy use, and an messy mix of local, regional and longer distance travelers.

Some numbers:

NS (so excluding the other operators) transport 1,1 million passengers per day (on a national population of 16 million).
NS operates about 4.500 train rides/routes per day
NS accounts for 15,5 billion passenger km per year
NS employs 26.000 people
Punctuality in 2007 was 87% (means 87% of the trains were on time, which means less than 3 minutes delay)

In the last decade the system has been upgraded. Many capacity bottlenecks have been resolved by creating railway flyovers to prevent trains from crossing each others paths, and by creating four track railways on the busiest stretches. Some new railway stretches have been constructed (such as the Betuwelijn between Rotterdam and the German border for freight, and the high speed line Amsterdam – Rotterdam - Brussels - Paris), and some stretches are under construction (like the Hanzelijn between Lelystad and Zwolle, offering a faster connection to the Northern Netherlands). Some regional lines have been ‘downgraded’ to regional lightrail lines (like the Hofpleinlijn and the Zoetermeerlijn).

To give you an idea of the intensity of use of the system:

On the stretch between Utrecht and Amsterdam, 12 trains per hour pass per direction outside rush hours. 
Many of the trains can hold up to 700 people per train.
250.000 people use Amsterdam Central Staion daily (not sure if this includes subway and tram users).
When the high speed rail between Amsterdam and Rotterdam be operational, it will have 6 trains per hour per direction. 
On the most rural routes there are usually still two trains per hour. Very few lines only have one train per hour.

Bad points:

Due to heavy use delays often occur.
Train speeds are not very high. On most intercity lines 140 km/h is the maximum speed.
The train often feels more like a metro system, which takes away some of the charm.
International routes are limited. There are only two rail connections with Belgium, and six with Germany.
Train system does not reach all towns.

Some images:

Network (red is 1 track, blue is 2 tracks, green is 3 tracks, yellow is 4 tracks)









Common trains:


















Thalys (which won't go fast until HSL is finished)









sprinter:


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## Cpt.Iglo

*Some Dutch trainstations:*

Amsterdam:









The Hague:









Groningen:

















Haarlem:









Zwolle:










There are also some smaller cities with old trainstations:

Leeuwarden









Valkenburg









Middelburg










*A few more Dutch trains:*









New Sprinter









Spurt


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## brisbanite

Thanks for the pic's Woutero, I love the Dutch railway system.


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## woutero

Some additional info on international and night trains:

Current international trains (not all stops mentioned):

1 Intercity train per hour: Amsterdam – Rotterdam – Antwerp - Brussels
4 Intercity trains per day: Amsterdam – Hengelo – Hannover - Berlin
8 ICE (High Speed) trains per day: Amsterdam – Köln – Frankfurt (1 continues to Basel, 1 to Munich)
7 Thalys (High Speed) trains per day: Amsterdam – Rotterdam – Antwerp – Brussels - Paris
The High Speed Trains still run slow on the regular Dutch tracks. But that will change (at least for the ones to the south) once the HSL is finished.


High Speed Trains when the HSL will be in use (expected as of october 2008):

1 train per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Antwerp – Brussels – Paris
1 train per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Antwerp – Brussels
2 trains per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam – Breda
2 trains per hour Amsterdam – Schiphol – Rotterdam
8 trains per day The Hague – Rotterdam – Breda – Noorderkempen – Antwerp – Mechelen - Brussels

Current international night trains:

1 train per day Amsterdam - Warsaw/Moscow/Minsk (splits)
1 train per day Amsterdam - Copenhagen/Prague (splits)
1 train per day Amsterdam - Milan/Vienna (splits)
1 train per day Amsterdam - Munich/Zurich (splits) (in winter to Garmisch Partenkirchen)
1 train per week ’s-Hertogenbosch - Bologna (summer only) (car/sleep train)
1 train per week ’s-Hertogenbosch - Livorno (summer only) (car/sleep train)
1 train per week ’s-Hertogenbosch - Avignon (summer only) (car/sleep train)
1 train per week Utrecht – Bisschofshofen (winter only)
1 train per week Utrecht – Innsbruck (winter only)
1 train per week Utrecht – Lausanne (winter only)

Domestic night trains:

Each night an hourly service between Utrecht – Amsterdam – Schiphol – Leiden – The Hague – Rotterdam
On thu, fri and sat nights hourly service Utrecht – ’s-Hertogenbosch – Eindhoven
On thu, fri and sat nights hourly service Rotterdam – Dordrecht – Breda – Tilburg – Eindhoven
On thu, fri and sat nights hourly service ’s-Hertogenbosch – Tilburg
Some additional trains run on Saturday nights (e.g. Utrecht– Veendendaal - Ede – Arnhem – Nijmegen)


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## sweek

Just so you know, those first and second busiest systems are Japan and probably Switzerland. Which is in Europe, but not in the EU, so I guess it's the busiest in the EU.


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## Zaqattaq

I love NS


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## Timon91

I just read that the new Sprinter won't have any toilets on board. Strange, because the direct train from Alkmaar to Rotterdam CS (journey of 2h30) is a sprinter.


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## RzgR Spijkenisse

Come on, only blind people would take that train, most other travellers would Change trains in A'dam and travel by InterCiy in one hour between both cities. So. if you wanna poo between A'dam and R'dam, take the IC, it has a toilet on board. Dont forget, there is a HighSpeedRail coming in the next four years.


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## Timon91

^^Yes, but from Rotterdam to Amsterdam Muiderpoort it is the fastest connection, and this takes about 1h30, so if you've got to go, you've got a problem


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## UrbanBen

Timon Kruijk said:


> ^^Yes, but from Rotterdam to Amsterdam Muiderpoort it is the fastest connection, and this takes about 1h30, so if you've got to go, you've got a problem


The sprinter is the fastest connection? I have a hard time with that - wouldn't you do Rotterdam-Amsterdam with a faster connection and then Amsterdam-Amsterdam Muiderpoort?


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## Timon91

Yes, it is, I looked it up on the site of the ns. At first, I also thought it would be else. It is also one of the recommended connections between Rotterdam and Uitgeest, which takes about 2 hours. This is because the travelling time by intercity between Rotterdam and Amsterdam is 52 mins. With the new HSL coming up (which will take a few more years) the time will be cut to 30 mins. Travelling time from Amsterdam to Breda (which is 2 hours now), will be cut to 1 hour.


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## Wuppeltje

@Timon Kruijk

Rotterdam Centraal - Amsterdam Muiderpoort is a pretty unlogical route. Most people will go the Amsterdam CS first and than transfer (reason more trains between Rotterdam and Amsterdam). If you don't have to be very close to Amsterdam Muiderpoort it is better to take a bus problably to CS first. 

Rotterdam Centraal - Uitgeest can be taken by 2 trains in 1:18. 

Sprinters are making sometimes long journeys, but virtually nobody has to be in them for 1 hour or more. If you do than you are problably making a very unlikely trip. Many people don't like toilets in trains too. In Zeeland and other areas there are bus trips over 1 hour, which are quite normal. I don't hear people complain in those busses about toilets.


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## Alexriga

So when HSR is scheduled to open?


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## ChrisZwolle

After the summer, according to a newspaper today.


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## Timon91

^^But the *real* HSL trains won't ride yet, isn't it? They will just use normal wagons and a normal loc.


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## pietje01

Timon Kruijk said:


> ^^But the *real* HSL trains won't ride yet, isn't it? They will just use normal wagons and a normal loc.


That's correct.
There are already Thalys HST's running, but due to the lack of ETCS they still have to run on conventional tracks.
ETCS will be added when they are modernised in the near future, but this will be after the services are already started.

The new HST's from AnsaldoBreda are ordered, but are for now nowhere in sight hno:


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## Wuppeltje

Those slow Italians with their AnsaldoBreda.


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## Timon91

I even thought that when it takes too long for AnsaldoBreda, that there will just be normal French TGV's running on this track....


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## pietje01

No, that way they wil spoil the travellers and they wouldn't like it when the AnsaldoBreda trains arrive


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## Timon91

Has anyone heard a rough guess of the date that the AnsaldoBreda trains are finished?
And I have another question: a few weeks ago I drove over the A15 towards Nijmegen, along the Betuwelijn. The fact that I didn't see any trains took my attention. Does anyone know if there are any trains using this track?


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## Momo1435

Timon Kruijk said:


> Has anyone heard a rough guess of the date that the AnsaldoBreda trains are finished?
> And I have another question: a few weeks ago I drove over the A15 towards Nijmegen, along the Betuwelijn. The fact that I didn't see any trains took my attention. Does anyone know if there are any trains using this track?


No nothing is known about the AnsaldoBreda train, there was a rumor then 1 set would go to a testtrack in Velim (CZ) a while, but afaik that hasn't happened yet.

Yes, the Betuweroute is used, but only by 100 trains a week due to problems with the security systems. But before the summer the frequency should go up to 4 trains an hour.


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## X38

There are problems with the High Speed Line between Antwerp (Belgium) - Dutch border. Something with that ETCS, and the NMBS (Belgian railways) want to use the line for commuter trains to Antwerp, because in the area around the HSL live many commuters to the city of Antwerp, most of that people are going by car, and the make the city of Antwerp terrifying to live. There are also buses of "De Lijn", but they are very very slow.
The NMBS has build a train station in "Brecht", called "Noorderkempen, and they want to use it for a shuttle sevice between Antwerp and Breda, stopping in that station.


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## Coccodrillo

The (probably) first photos of the HST: http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19549


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## Timon91

The train looks ok, the colours seem quite familiar to me. The intercity Amsterdam-Brussels has the same colours


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## X38

I don't like it.


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## Ni3lS

Everyone likes NS. so do I.. It are my initials!  [ My favourite color is yellow btw ]


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## Ni3lS

*Some more pics.*



















New Train design 










Rotterdam Centraal is closed, They are building a new station.










Impressions:


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## Ni3lS

*Utrecht Centraal : Busiest Train Station*

Utrecht Centraal is the busiest train station in The Netherlands. Most of the trains are coming through Utrecht.

Pics





































More information about Dutch Railways will follow.

I will keep this thread up to date


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## Kuvvaci

what about National Railways Intercity trains? Their speed?


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## xlchris

I never knew one of those trains is only being used in the Randstad area. I'm not that much in the other parts of NL so I wouldn't know.


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## Timon91

120 to 140 for regular IC's, I think. Some lines like Amsterdam Bijlmer-Utrecht and the future line Lelystad-Zwolle are ready for 200 km/h, but the top speed of those IC's is 160 km/h.


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## Kuvvaci

do you have intercity buses?


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## convalescence

Momo1435 said:


> ^^ Right now it's 0 km/h, since it's not in service yet due to several technical problems causing too many delays.
> 
> But the 1st shuttle trains will go only 160 km/h, but they will be replaced by the weird looking trains that go 250 km/h (if they ever come into service, delays, delays, delays.) Plus the Thalys will do it's maximum speed of 300 km/h on the line.


Why do NS and SNCB order these new (and ugly) trains for their HSL? In both countries there are for example Thalys and ICE in service which are able to drive 300, so why do they take these new trains who are only able to drive 250?

Or if the Eurostar trains would be compatible to the signal technique in Netherlands, a connection between Amsterdam and London would be nice as well.


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## Timon91

Kuvvaci said:


> do you have intercity buses?


Yes, we have buses called the "interliner", but it's not as widely used as for example the Greyhound in the US, because we have a good train system which brings you to your destination faster.


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## Timon91

convalescence said:


> Why do NS and SNCB order these new (and ugly) trains for their HSL? In both countries there are for example Thalys and ICE in service which are able to drive 300, so why do they take these new trains who are only able to drive 250?


They wanted something completely new to show the Benelux identity. Like the TGV is French and the ICE is German. So I don't know how they got to this design, but I think they just held a contest, picked out the ugliest design and decided to build that one. The ICE and Thalys are really much nicer, I agree with you.



convalescence said:


> Or if the Eurostar trains would be compatible to the signal technique in Netherlands, a connection between Amsterdam and London would be nice as well.


Hopefully, but I guess plane will stay the fastest way of travelling between Amsterdam and London. Nowadays this train connection is still a pain in the ass and we are all hoping for improvent with the new HSL.


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## Momo1435

^^ We got stuck with the AnsaldoBreda trains since they won the tender for these trains because they were the cheapest. The design of the train is by Pininfarina, so it should be good. But it just shows that even the greatest designers don't always deliver. It would've been better if they would've chosen for a tested design, then we could have got something better. Although I don't think a TGV or an ICE were in the race, since they didn't fit the specifications for the tender. 



Timon91 said:


> Yes, we have buses called the "interliner", but it's not as widely used as for example the Greyhound in the US, because we have a good train system which brings you to your destination faster.


Actually, since bus services are all regulated Intercity buses are only allowed on routes that aren't directly connected by train.

And we have the Interliner










the Qliner










and the Brabantliner


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## Kuvvaci

thank you for the infos. I thin only Germany doesn't have intercity buses...


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## xlchris

This has won a price for best design. Chairs are higher so you can put your stuff underneeth it.


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## convalescence

This new railway infrastructure looks sick ^^

but I don't want to know how it will look like in 5-10 years hno: probably won't be white anymore...


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## Timon91

Which train type is that new interior with those higher red chairs?


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## Momo1435

^^ It looks like the lower deck of a VIRM, but it's just a design study it's not an actual interior. Maybe something for when the trains are up for refurbishment, the only things that should be sorted is the legroom, the seat are standing a bit to close to each other. But the idea is good, there's not enough space to leave your luggage in the VIRM.










If that is sorted it could already be used for the DD-AR conversion to Intercity trains that will start soon.


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## urbanfan89

Kuvvaci said:


> thank you for the infos. I thin only Germany doesn't have intercity buses...


Apparently intercity buses are banned in France to prevent competition with SNCF.


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## serdar samanlı1

urbanfan89 said:


> Apparently intercity buses are banned in France to prevent competition with SNCF.


Really? I always thought intercity buses are everywhere.


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## Kuvvaci

^^ than means you don't know about transportation..


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## Kuvvaci

how many stations are there between Amsterdam and Brussels with NS National Railways HSL ?


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## Club_Dru

HSL-Zuid stations between Amsterdam to Brussel: *Amsterdam CS- Schiphol Airport-Rotterdam CS-Antwerp CS - Brussel South Station/ CS* 










The infrastructure is finished since 2006, but there are still sum problems with the safetysytem and most important, the trains still not delivered by the Italian manufacture AnsaloBreda! Originally the HSL Zuid scheduled for completion in 2007, it is now expected to open in mid 2009. 

The new line is expected to shorten travel times for international and domestic services.

Amsterdam-Rotterdam 0:43 (currently 0:58) 
Amsterdam-Breda 0:59 (currently 1:44) 
Amsterdam-Antwerp 1:10 (currently 2:00) 
Amsterdam-Brussels 1:44 (currently 2:40) 
Amsterdam-Paris 3:04 (currently 4:04) 
The Hague-Brussels 1:44 (currently 2:17) 
Breda-Brussels 0:59 (currently 1:44) 

left train NS 'HiSpeed', with a rental locomotiv to Brussel. Right train Thalys to Paris.




































Amsterdam and the The Hague are upgrading their stations. Rotterdam and Breda get a totaly new station.


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## Timon91

It's a beautiful project, but there have been just too much problems. Hopefully it will open soon and turn out to be efficient, otherwise it's all been for nothing hno:


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## Kuvvaci

Very nice info...

I noticed that HST has normal locomotive, why?


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## Timon91

That's temporary, until the new high speed trains arrive. You know, the very ugly ones.


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## Kuvvaci

so what is its (this green loco's) speed?


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## Koen Acacia

^^ Not much. :/ Just regular speed.


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## Timon91

160 km/h


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## hoosier

Man, I can't believe the Netherlands doesn't have true HSR yet!!


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## Kuvvaci

why? What is Thalys?


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## Timon91

^^We also have the ICE, going to Frankfurt am Main. However, both Thalys and ICE don't run at full speed, but 150 km/h maximum. So no high speeds yet. And yesterday it was announced that it will take another year for the HSL-Zuid to open, because AnsaldoBreda can't deliver the trains on time and because there are more problems with the safety system. If it continues like this, this safety system will turn out to be working well, since there has never happened an accident there, because we keep delaying this project all the time :bash:


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## Kuvvaci

so, they don't drive full speed because of safety system problem, right? I have no idea about it before... I found some Dutch suburban train pictures , if you allow me I'd like to share them with you here.


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## Club_Dru

^^@kuvaci Please share, no problem.


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## Kuvvaci

demiryolportali-İlker Ertuğrul


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## X38

^^ What station is this?


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## X38

xlchrisij said:


>


I like it :drool:


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## Dino S

X38 said:


> I like it :drool:


Don't quote pictures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bash:hno:


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## 33Hz

Timon91 said:


> And yesterday it was announced that it will take another year for the HSL-Zuid to open, because AnsaldoBreda can't deliver the trains on time and because there are more problems with the safety system.


What's the source for that?


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## Timon91

^^The Dutch NOS Journaal, www.nu.nl, the newspaper Trouw, to name a few.


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## Club_Dru

*Donderdag 20 November*
De eerste treinen op de hogesnelheidslijn HSL Zuid laten opnieuw op zich wachten. Verkeersminister Camiel Eurlings deelde dat donderdag mee in de Tweede Kamer. De Kamer reageerde woedend, ook omdat de minister de exploitant HSA te hulp wil schieten om een faillissement af te wenden.

*Thursday 20 November*
Again the first trains of the HSL-South has a delay. Trafficminister Camiel Eurlings says this at the Parlement. The Parlementmembers are furious, because now Eurlings wants to finance the HSA (High Speed Alliance, the traincompagny) to affoid a bankrupcy.(The HSA has ordered the trains at AnsaldoBreda, because it was the cheapest deal)

_(I tried to translate it as possible)_

Source: http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/263217/Voorlopig-geen-treinen-op-HSL-Zuid.html

There are problems with the safetysytems and there are problems with the trainmanufacture AnsaldoBreda, the previous Dutch goverment hasn't have an agreement about the deliverytimes of the trains. So AnsaldoBreda doesn't get a penalty if there is a delay of delivery.

It is not the first time AnsaldoBreda has delayproblems.
From wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansaldobreda,_S.P.A.

*Denmark*
The company has recently become known for delaying the delivery of the new IC4 high-speed Diesel multiple units and refusing to acknowledge penalties claimed by the government because of these delays. The trains were supposed to be ready in 2003, but so far Ansaldobreda has only been able to deliver a single set for testing. May 21st 2008 the Danish customer DSB announced that they would cancel the entire 5 bill. DKK (€670mln) contract unless at least 14 sets are delivered and in service by May 2009. However 70% of the contract amount has already been paid to AnsaldoBreda.


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## Timon91

The cheapest solution isn't always the best solution. It's horrible :bash:


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## serdar samanlı1

Is car travel common in Netherlands?


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## Timon91

^^Yes, most people use cars, resulting in lots of jams. Our motorways are completely stuck during rush hours. The government wants to encourage people to use the train more and more often.


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## Jay

woutero said:


> what class is this?


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## ReisThijs

Buncles said:


> ^^ Is the rail line high speed, or just regular rail?


Just "regulair" rail. Though speeds of 160km/u or 200km/u should be possible: that's not very regular in the Netherlands.



Qaabus said:


> IJsselspoorbrug Zwolle
> A new, higher, bridge will replace the current one from 1864, removing one of the main obstacles for shipping on the IJssel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source


It's not that old actually: the original bridge was replaced by this one in the 1930's.


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## hoosier

ChrisZwolle said:


> The network is pretty good, and frequencies are high, but the network is often loaded to capacity due to aged safety systems, and problems at important stations can have effect throughout a lot of the network for most of the day. They should've 4-tracked more railway lines, but chose presitiguous megaprojects instead (Betuweroute, HSL-South).


Is HSL-South the same as HSL-Zuid? Sorry I don't know any Dutch.


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## Momo1435

Yes, Zuid is Dutch for South.


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## Slagathor

hoosier said:


> Sorry I don't know any Dutch.


Few people do, don't sweat it.


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## andrelot

*A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system*

I'm living in Tilburg since June, and here are some of my thoughts on major issues of the system, with questions I have about them:

(1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system? 

(2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?

(3) They are putting gates or checkpoints for the OV-Chipkaart in every station. It seems a very good idea do replace honor system with printes tickets by RFID cards. Any estimate date to start allowing use of the Transportation Card to pay for NS fares?

(4) Some trains that split during the journey (IC to Leewarden/Groningen or IC to Maastrich/Heerlem) are not well identified from inside. Older double decker trains had an electronic display in each floor/car, newer ones don't. Are there any plans to include an on-board electronic train announcement system? (Sometimes is really hard to understand what the conductor is saying).

(5) Are there any plans to create "super direct" routes on longer routes that don't stop as much as the Intercity? I've travelled Tilburg-Groningen route a dozen times, and there's no option that takes less than 1 connection (that's fine) and at least 10 stops (that's not fine) using only IC services for a route that has no more than 280 km.

(6) Are there any plans to electrify the Nijmegen-Venlo-Roermond route? What about Syntus routes in easter Netherlands? I think is so outdted to have those lines still running on diesel...


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## Slagathor

andrelot said:


> *A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system*
> 
> I'm living in Tilburg since June, and here are some of my thoughts on major issues of the system, with questions I have about them:
> 
> (1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?


Arrival times are a problem, you're right. When I pick someone up, I have to ask them what time they got _on_ the train so I can figure out what time it _should_ arrive according to ns.nl

The train services used to carry their own numbers a few years ago, as I recall, but they fell into disuse and later ceased to exist altogether. As far as I know, there are no plans to reinstate them or introduce a similar system.

It's funny you should mention national metro system, because that is exactly what NS has in mind when it considers its future. In the next few years, trains in the Randstad will run every 10 or sometimes even 5 minutes. You'll be seeing more of that throughout the entire country as the infrastructure and rolling stock are adapted accordingly.



> (2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?


You spotted all the differences between 1st and 2nd class. That's it, there isn't more to it.

As for seating arrangements - NS has struggled to come up with a consistent policy. A few years ago they argued that double deckers should have face-to-face arrangements below and individual rows upstairs. When they ordered newer trains, the policy was changed. I have no idea what the current policy is. It's a major flaw in the organizational structures of the company.



> (3) They are putting gates or checkpoints for the OV-Chipkaart in every station. It seems a very good idea do replace honor system with printes tickets by RFID cards. Any estimate date to start allowing use of the Transportation Card to pay for NS fares?


People traveling on subscriptions can already use it (since december 1st I believe). It will be introduced in stages for every traveler through 2010 if all goes to plan.



> (4) Some trains that split during the journey (IC to Leewarden/Groningen or IC to Maastrich/Heerlem) are not well identified from inside. Older double decker trains had an electronic display in each floor/car, newer ones don't. Are there any plans to include an on-board electronic train announcement system? (Sometimes is really hard to understand what the conductor is saying).


Everyone I know is annoyed by the disappearance of the inside displays in the new double deckers. It's a strange decision. There are, sadly, no plans to bring it back. 
Other types of trains such as the Sprinter do have detailed displays (showing every station with its own arrival time) and an electronic announcer. I don't know if the voice-over is gonna be introduced on other trains as well.



> (5) Are there any plans to create "super direct" routes on longer routes that don't stop as much as the Intercity? I've travelled Tilburg-Groningen route a dozen times, and there's no option that takes less than 1 connection (that's fine) and at least 10 stops (that's not fine) using only IC services for a route that has no more than 280 km.


No. Frequent stops is the new black. Metro system etc. 



> (6) Are there any plans to electrify the Nijmegen-Venlo-Roermond route? What about Syntus routes in easter Netherlands? I think is so outdted to have those lines still running on diesel...


I don't know, you'd have to contact Prorail for that.


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## DarkLoki

andrelot said:


> *A couple of thoughts on Dutch railway system*
> (1) Sometimes I keep thinking whether Netherlands have a rail system or a national metro system. You cannot find, easily, information about arriving trains or arriving times of your train unless you ask an NS employee or check the Internet. There are no such thing like "train service numbers" to make identification easier. Is there any plan to improve the station information system?


The train stations I use have a table that shows all the arriving trains. Their origin and arrivaltime. Oh I guess you mean when you are inside the train. In that case there you would indeed have to ask a "conducteur". But new trains such as the ICMm has fittings for a new information system that will give information about the stations and times. When the DDAR is upgraded for intercity use it will also use that system. They will also solve the problem you mentioned in question 4.



> (2) 1st class offer little more comfort than 2nd class, but 2nd class costs only 60% of 1st class prices. Newer trains have 6-seat compartments on 1st class, and individual electric socks. Only real benefit seems to be guaranteed seat in peak-times. Anyway, I really don't like newer trains where most seats in 2nd classe are placed in pairs facing each other. I prefer "bus"-like seat where I face the back of other sit, not a stranger face. Am I the only one that dislikes these new double-decker trains with seats facing each other in opposite pairs?


I prefer having the seats in a vis à vis setting, and as far as I know most trains have less of them in recent times. So I do not know if you are the only one who dislikes those trains but I am not one of them


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## Slagathor

DarkLoki said:


> The train stations I use have a table that shows all the arriving trains. Their origin and arrivaltime.


I think I've managed to never ever see those 



> Oh I guess you mean when you are inside the train. In that case there you would indeed have to ask a "conducteur". But new trains such as the ICMm has fittings for a new information system that will give information about the stations and times. When the DDAR is upgraded for intercity use it will also use that system. They will also solve the problem you mentioned in question 4.


So the Sprinter, the ICMm and the DDAR will use that system, that's good, but what about VIRM?



> I prefer having the seats in a vis à vis setting, and as far as I know most trains have less of them in recent times. So I do not know if you are the only one who dislikes those trains but I am not one of them


It's a personal thing. But NS could at least strive to implement a single policy. As is stands, nobody knows what's what.


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## woutero

^^
I read this week that NS has plans to create a difference between quiet and social zones in their double decker trains.

Upstairs would be the quiet zone, where the seats are arranged like buses, and people are supposed to be quiet, read or work.

Downstairs would become the social zone, with seats arranged vis-a-vis (four seats), and lounge benches. 

So in the future you will have a choice.

Source:
http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/357939/Beneden-is-het-gezellig.html


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## andrelot

That would be a good idea, there are "quiet" cars today, but I don't think people care about them.


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## 3737

The DDAR trains will be refurbished and will be renamed in Double dekker Zone.
(DDZ for short)
It will be named zone because of the relax deck on the first floor and silence deck on the second floor.
First class first floor now :









Second class second floor now :









Source : wikipedia

The train after refurbishing :
First floor first class with the lounge banks :









Second floor first class : 









First floor second class : 









First floor first class and second class in the background :









And also the second floor : 









Toilet:









Entrance train : 









Source : www.puurruimte.nl

The first proto train will be finished at the end of 2010 and is already in progress : http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3929514137/in/set-72157622399969052/ :banana:
If the proto train is finished and succeeded for some tests the whole DDAR fleet will be refurbished in the begining of 2011 and will be finished around 2013.
The project will be done by nedtrain who also did the refurbishing of the ICMm (koploper) trains.

And here is some more info about the project : http://www.nsprocurement.nl/files/DDARm.Info-Modernization.080901.ppt


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## andrelot

Cool, thanks for posting. Do you know if are they going to put wireless service in the trains?

I also hope they change those filthy bathrooms whic throws sewage... straight into the tracks.


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## 3737

andrelot said:


> Cool, thanks for posting. Do you know if are they going to put wireless service in the trains?
> 
> I also hope they change those filthy bathrooms whic throws sewage... straight into the tracks.


I think they will get new bioreactors like het new VIRM trains but i am not shure about it.
Al the trains of the NS fleet will have wireless internet.
NS signed an agreement with T mobile and the first trains will be equiped with it in march 2010 :banana:


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## Momo1435

^^ Only the Intercity trains.


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## andrelot

I have another question: I realized Dutch rail network has some key nods out of Randstad (Zwolle and Eindhoven, for instance), yet there are no express services linkin these places with non-stop services to cities in The Randstad. For instance: from Zwolle there area a lot of lines branching north and east, as there are other lines in Eindhoven. So why don't NS set up some direct services like Rotterdam-Zwolle, Amsterdam-Eidnhoven etc. non-stop services, to speed up connections from the outer provinces to the Randstad?

Even within the Randstad, I still cannot understand why don't they have direct Intercity services from Rotterdam to Amsterdam that don't call at Den Haag HS (except for Fyra, which was almost empty 4 times I used it), or Utrecht-Den Haag Centraal services that don't call at Gouda.


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## Momo1435

Direct trains are not really practical on the Dutch railways, there are just too many cities of reasonable size and the rail network is already too busy and complex to make these kind of trains go faster then the current trains. 

And the number of people that actually travel from Amsterdam to Eindhoven or Rotterdam - Zwolle is actually not high enough for 2 non stop trains per hour. Any lower frequency will seriously harm is passenger numbers (see Fyra). On the other hand Rotterdam - Utrecht needs 4 ICs per hour during rush hour to have enough capacity and that won't change with direct trains to the East. And then you need 3, because Zwolle has one, why can't Enschede and Arnhem have two. At Gouda these trains will have to share the tracks with the 4 ICs from Den Haag to Utrecht, at Woerden the 2 IC per hour will also join the tracks. And then you don't even look at the stopping services and the freight trains that also have a regular timetable on this route. Adding any more trains would just mean more delays and make it much more complex then needed. 

This is also the reason why all the trains stop at Gouda, back in the 1980s there where 2 ICs per hour from Rotterdam to Utrecht, only stopping at Rdam Alexander. And also 2 ICs per hour from Den Haag to Utrecht with 1 stop per hour in Gouda. These trains used to be coupled in Utrecht to continue together to Zwolle-Groningen/Leeuwarden or Enschede. 

In the 1990s a new fast train was added to the route, with an hourly service from Rotterdam to Utrecht that stopped also at Gouda and Woerden and continued to Arnhem. On the other half hour the train would start at Den Haag, in order to have an 1/2 hour frequency between Gouda and Utrecht. This service was even increased to a full 1/2 hour between both Rotterdam and Den Haag and Utrecht with the trains coupled together at Gouda. 

But even with this train the Rotterdam - Utrecht route became to busy during rush hours. Especially because these trains where always coupled at some point on the route there could only use half trains between Rotterdam and Utrecht. In order to use the full capacity they have stopped coupling the trains altogether and created 4 IC trains per hour from Rotterdam to Utecht that continue to Leeuwarden (1x), Deventer (2x) or Enschede (1x). 

As a result there are now 8 IC trains between Gouda and Utrecht, if they would all be non-stop there wouldn't be room for a direct fast train between those two cities any more. Half of them could easily pass Gouda, but for the timetable planners it would too difficult, especially in Utrecht where 6 of those ICs have to change the driving direction of the train to go to Amersfoort. That takes time and uses more capacity in the station then a regular stop. Gouda is lucky in this way since it has one of the best connection with Utrecht out of all the cities in the Randstad.


Direct services would be good for the people living in the cities in the North East and South, but it's just not possible in the already too busy timetable in the Randstad. Plus long distance commuting isn't something that should be encouraged in a country with a such a high population density as Holland, the infrastructure is already used more then it can handle. People should actually be encouraged to live close to their work, so they don't have to take the train or car to commute.


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## andrelot

> People should actually be encouraged to live close to their work, so they don't have to take the train or car to commute.


Thanks Momo1435, you gave me interesting and useful information about the tracks use in the Randstad. It is by no means a calm track like Syntus services near Hegelo.

In regard of the latter, I think it is not common to read that people should stop taking the train to commute. I know the country is fairly dense, and economic activities are quite spread around. For sure, single young professional can choose to live near their workplace, but what about families where the man works in Amsterdam the woman in Rotterdam, and their child studies at a Tech University in Utrecht, for instance?

Just hanging on the subject, I think is quite unreasonable to expect families to be able to confine their lives to just one city these days, if they have higher-profile careers. I mean, it should be easier to relocate if one works as a cashier and the other as a salesperson at a department store; situation is different one is an specialist doctor and the other an electrical engineer.


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## Momo1435

It's about choices.

But if we really wan't to do something about the capacity problems in our trains or for more people even more importantly, solve the congestion problem on our roads then we cannot just depend only on solutions like more trains or more roads. 

For a real solution of those problems we need to take a different look on our mobility together with how we organize and design our cities. Discouraging long distance commuting even if it's by train is one of the things we should not be afraid of to discuss as possible solution. We have to keep all options open if we really want to ease the congestion and to make our public transport a better option for more people to use on a daily basis. Right now everybody has an excuse ready why they shouldn't change their own mobility behaviour, even when they always complain about the traffic jams or standing in the train. And as a result we will end up with a country that's completely built-up country with only high-ways and suburban neighbourhoods, that's not something to look forward to.


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## andrelot

How much space do Dutch railways and freeways take up from the whole land territory? 1% maybe?

Usually when you put facts on the ground you find out urbanization and "space eaten" by airports, tracks and highways are far less than common sense would say - at least that what happens in controlled experiments done in US: people think that farmland is running out fast, when it indeed is not -.

Anyway, I don't think increased train mobility is a bad thing for a dense country. Unless you want to isolate further provinces and depopulate them, then turning the Randstad cities into Manhatan-like high-rises skyline, rail and road transportation demands are going at most to stabilize.

I don't think couples would be willing to give up in dual careers, best educational choices for their children etc. for the sake of saving some pristine farmland. These days, is easy to blame the car etc. (especially because anti-car measures usually pamper the affected people with nice streets, or people think that congestion would go down because _others_ will stop driving so he/she will have more room to drive). However, I don't think any politician would advance and agenda like "choose the jobs available in your cities, not the trains that take you from your cities to the jobs you want to".

It's quite totalitarian, indeed, this approach (just reflecting, I'm not thinking you said that).


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## DarkLoki

I do not live in the Randstad but I do not see why the family situation you proposed would not be possible. What about the current train system would not allow two of them to commute to their work?


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Such a service would not be that much faster than the current IC. It would have a lot less customers though. There really isn't that much point for such a train.
> 
> Having more different stopping patterns also decreases the efficiency with which you can use your network. If you want to run trains every 10 minutes at regular intervals it helps a lot if they all stop at the same places.


Just put ETCS 2 or 3 in place and that can be done. Moreover, how can you state that there is no demand for such services. I know you are timetable-obsessed, which is ok, but from then to say that such trains would have far less costumers, it is an exaggeration, I'd say.

Usually long-distance express train has far less costumers per km than regional services. In the case of Netherlands, without any speed upgrading of the network, it would be possible to run a non-stop train from Sittard (in Limburg) to Amsterdam in less than 1h30, if it were non-stop. Today services take 2h10.

Ultimately every long-distance service has to preempt regional operations, but that is how is should be. Just drop the damn obsession with intervals, and make regional services adapt to long-distance trains that would be given preference.



K_ said:


> Indeed. They should just integrate the whole service in the existing IC network. Have the normal Amsterdam - Rotterdam (and beyond) IC's travel on the line, and the trains will be full.


There is no rolling stock to cope with such demand, unless you "degrade" the railway to normal 160 km/h in a permanent basis (like they are doing temporarily while the Fyra stock is not delivered), but that would just jeopardize the very reason by which the project was done, and would slow down Thalys services too.

They need to charge a supplement, but a smaller one.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Usually long-distance express train has far less costumers per km than regional services. In the case of Netherlands, without any speed upgrading of the network, it would be possible to run a non-stop train from Sittard (in Limburg) to Amsterdam in less than 1h30, if it were non-stop. Today services take 2h10.


This could only be done if there were no other trains on the line. A direct Sittard - Amsterdam service would have to run in addition to existing services with more stops. This would mean that this train would have to overtake the other train, which needs extra infrastructure. 
If you could fill such a train every hour than it becomes justifiable to invest in the needed infrastructure, but I doubt you could do that. 



> Ultimately every long-distance service has to preempt regional operations, but that is how is should be. Just drop the damn obsession with intervals, and make regional services adapt to long-distance trains that would be given preference.


Having regional trains adapt to the long distance trains is exactly what NS is doing. It's what everyone is doing, except maybe Trenitalia.

The point is however that many long distance trains need the intermediate stops in order to be profitable. Combine that with the simple fact that having all trains adhere to the same stopping pattern makes capacity and infrastructure planning easier and you'll see that what NS does makes perfect sense.


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## ArthurK

Suburbanist said:


> Usually long-distance express train has far less costumers per km than regional services. In the case of Netherlands, without any speed upgrading of the network, it would be possible to run a non-stop train from Sittard (in Limburg) to Amsterdam in less than 1h30, if it were non-stop. Today services take 2h10.


I don't agree. Amsterdam-Sittard is 196 km. That would require an AVERAGE speed of 130 km/h, which is impossible on the current infrastructure. For example, you're not able to drive through Utrecht with a higher speed than 40 km/h. Therefore, non-stop services will have less time benefit than you might expect.

If I remember correctly, the Intercity Amsterdam-Maastricht-Liège-Luxemburg (once a day in summer) skipped some intercity stations. This train has been dissolved some years ago. And IIRC, the intercities Amsterdam-Berlin (then 4x/day) didn't call at Almelo and Apeldoorn a few years ago.

Another special service was the so-called "Civil Servants Express" (ambtenarenexpres) between Groningen and The Hague, which skipped Amersfoort. So non-stop Zwolle-Utrecht.

I can remember an item on tv news in the early 90s. The mayor of Amersfoort was upset about a plan in which (some) intercities would no longer call at Amersfoort. It sounds nowadays strange to me, but I can clearly remember.


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## pietje01

Suburbanist said:


> There is no rolling stock to cope with such demand, unless you "degrade" the railway to normal 160 km/h in a permanent basis (like they are doing temporarily while the Fyra stock is not delivered), but that would just jeopardize the very reason by which the project was done, and would slow down Thalys services too.


Not true, the fact that the speed is limited is due to incompatibilities with the ETCS equipment.
On the HSL between antwerp and the Netherlands, Thalys is allowed to go at 300km/h while the domestic train does only 160 km/h, so that wouldn't be a problem.

Also, in Belgium NMBS is upgrading its I6/I10 stock, maybe NS could do the same with the ICR stock, so they do the same as the NMBS with the line between Leuven and Liege (Thalys at 300, domestic at 200)


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## Suburbanist

*Hacker gets community service for faking transport cards*

A 30-year-old man from Leiden has been given 60 hours community service and a suspended month jail term for forging at least 20 public transport smart cards.
The man, known as Erik van IJ, used a card reader and computer software to transfer information from a legal transport card to fake ones. He claims to have hacked the cards in order to show how weak their security is.

IJ is the first person to be found guilty of forging transport cards – the ov-chipkaart – since they were introduced. 

source


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## AlexNL

The way they caught this guy was pretty interesting too... appearantly the TLS backend found out that fraudulent transactions were taking place, but instead of simply blacklisting the card they decided to track him (as he had a frequent home-work travel pattern) and wait for him to use his cloned OV-chipkaart at a terminal.


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## Suburbanist

*Major blow to new Bombardier Sprinters... 2/3 of them are BROKEN disrupting services in NL*

I'm not entirely sure I read the article correctly, but apparently two thirds of Sprinter new fleet are broken and out of service due to winter conditions affecting their systems.

It's a major blow to NS services, which is then rushing crappy, noise and very old trains about to be retired to fill the gaps...

================
Tweederde nieuwe stoptreinen kapot
_Tweederde van de 95 nieuwe sprinters van de NS zijn kapot. Dat bevestigt een woordvoerder van de NS tegenover ANP na eerdere berichtgeving van de NOS.

De nieuwe stoptreinen van Bombardier, een consortium van Siemens, zijn tijdens het winterse weer van de laatste weken stil komen te staan. Smeltwater van de sneeuw lijkt problemen te hebben veroorzaakt in de elektronica van de treinen. Maar definitief uitsluitsel kan de NS daar nog niet over geven. Meer dan dertig technici van Bombardier zijn in allerijl naar Nederland gekomen om de problemen op te lossen.

Volgens de vervoersmaatschappij hebben de problemen met de nieuwe sprinters geen gevolgen voor de dienstregeling. De oude stoptreinen, die de sprinters moesten vervangen, zijn ingezet op de trajecten waar door de defecten treinstellen uit zijn gevallen._


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## k.k.jetcar

> It's a major blow to NS services, which is then rushing crappy, noise and very old trains about to be retired to fill the gaps...


But apparently able to work even when the sun isn't shining and everything is wet:tongue2:


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## AlexNL

The already retired DDM1 double decker trains (pushed/pulled by a class 1800 loco) will be re-activated as a huge amount of Sprinter Light Trainsets are out of service due to snow related malfunctioning. 

NOS mentioned that of 95 SLT's available to NS, only 10 are in service... which is a huge blow to NS indeed. The SLT trainsets were to be NS's answer to the new trains bought by Veolia, Arriva and others (mostly the GTW trainsets from Stadler): clean, light, fast, open and step-free access.

However, the trainsets are turning out to be a huge headache to passengers, train drivers, train managers and now upper management of NS:
- No toilets (NS has officially stated no more SLT will be ordered after delivery of the current order)
- Breaks down easily
- Train series that were punctual with the previous trains (DD-AR, Mat '64 or SGMm) are now delayed frequently
- Too little leg room
- Passengers feel unsafe
- Delivered way too late

The union for train drivers has gathered a list of complaints, which can be found here (in Dutch).

SLT is not the only trainset giving NS a headache, the V250 trains from AnsaldoBreda are still problematic as well. This shows a problem NS is having: the unability to order decent rolling stock. Perhaps this is due to the people in the NS headquarters having lost all touch with the outside world?

SLT is highly criticized for being a 'drawing board train', due to the lack of toilets and leg space... if even the staff apologizes for having an SLT you just know something is wrong...


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## Attus

Sorry, it is the 2400 series what you're talking about?


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## AlexNL

The SLT trains are numbered in both the 2400 series and the 2600 series. The 2400's consist of 4-car trainsets and are built by Bombardier, the 6-car trainsets are numbered in the 2600 and are built by Siemens.

Both the 2400 and the 2600 series have their share of problems, so they're not unique to either Bombardier or Siemens.


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## Attus

AlexNL said:


> The SLT trains are numbered in both the 2400 series and the 2600 series.


I see, thanks!


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> However, the trainsets are turning out to be a huge headache to passengers, train drivers, train managers and now upper management of NS:
> - No toilets (NS has officially stated no more SLT will be ordered after delivery of the current order)


These trains are meant for short journeys. I don't have details, but I doubt any official suggested route would involve anything like 45min in one of those trains. Maybe the Rotterdam-Hoek van Holland route. The question is that some people, out of laziness, prefer to take longer routes on Sprinters than change for an Intercity and arrive early. For instance, some passengers travel from Breda to Utrecht in a stoptrein instead of taking 2 Intercity just to avoid a connection at Den Bosch or Rotterdam - e.g., lazy.

Toilets are very expensive now that NS, rightfully, will not fit any open discharge toilet in its trains anymore.



> - Train series that were punctual with the previous trains (DD-AR, Mat '64 or SGMm) are now delayed frequently


Not necessarily related with rolling stock.



> - Too little leg room


This is definitively an issue with those trains.



> - Passengers feel unsafe


Says who? Why? This doesn't make sense at all. Frist, these trains are designed as open room, so you don't have that situation of a strange type sit in a compartment with your. Second, there are cameras (a lot of them) on those trains. Third, they are very well-lit. What would make these trains "unsafe"?


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## Suburbanist

*With many cars and sets damaged, NS announces temporary relief measures for January*

70% of the fleet of new Sprinters have been damaged by winter conditions. It is more a design flaw than anything else, as those trains are rather new, many of them brand new.

On top of that, older rolling stock not yet "winterized" also suffered and a non-disclosed number of cars and EMUs are not available until they will be repaired. 

Therefore, NS announced a set of measures to accommodate the shortcoming for the whole month of January:

- instead of cancelling trains, NS will run shorter trains in many routes until repaired sets/cars are put back to service. In most cases, this mean trains with half the capacity of usual ones. Overcrowd is expected and predicted at peak times.

- Fyra and ICE will be opened (the later only within Netherlands, of course) for passengers with common tickets without supplement.

- every passenger will be entitled to the off-peak 40% discount, regardless of possession of a discount plan/card


Of the measures above, I don't agree with opening ICEs without the supplement. There are not many of them running, and they are usually already half-full. It could end with stranded passengers between Utrecht and Amsterdam, compromising the high-quality travel experience ICE Intl. passengers have.

I also fear that controllers will become loose on avoiding people with 2nd class tickets spoiling 1st class users by sitting there. The only major advantage of 1st class hefty price difference in Netherlands is that it is far less crowded than 2nd class and almost always have seats available. This extra comfort of a less crowded seating area will become even more important when many trains are expected to be very crowded due to their shortening, so I hope NS keeps enforcing 1st class tickets on 1st class seats.

In regard of Fyra, they have already waived fare supplement (far higher than that of ICE) in a number of occasions. Indeed, at the smallest problem in the Rotterdam-Den Haag-Leiden-Schiphol line they seem to open Fyra (now running 34 services per direction daily) for other passengers. This has increased the number of people travelling on Fyra considerably and increased awareness of the service among users. My only concern: that passengers will demand Fyra to be open all the times without supplement and NS bowing to them as an image-appease initiative, which could derail HSA already precarious financial situation.


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## AlexNL

Actually, when the Fyra supplement is waived, NS Reizigers pays a sum of money to HSA to pay for those supplements. 

About SLT: if you live in Gilze-Rijen and you have to go to work in Houten-Castellum, the sprinter series are the only options you have. That's over an hour in a train without a toilet, and there are no faster alternatives. NS intended the SLT trainsets for short trips (where the average passenger would be in an SLT for 20 minutes max.) but when they use these trains on long-haul services like Rotterdam - Alkmaar, you're bound to attract passengers that make long trips in a sprinter simply because it's the fastest route.

Furthermore sometimes SLT is also used as a replacement service when the original train is broken down. I.e. on the The Hague - Venlo route, an intercity service. SLT doesn't belong there in the first place, but when it does make its appearance there it's just a huge pain in the ass to passengers that need to.. well.. go.

This is a problem, either because NS ordered the wrong trains or perhaps they ordered the right trains but they are using them on the wrong route.



About safety: from what I've understood, people feel unsafe in SLT exactly because of the wide open area and that there is not a single place in the train where you can not be seen. The older Mat '64, the SGMm trains, the intercities, they all have compartments which are at most as long as the carriage itself. SLT is a wide open area and as well-lit as a soccer field. 

About delays: not necessarily related to the rolling stock, I think the NS staff still needs to get used to the trains and its characteristics.


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## Maarten Otto

SLT reliability has dropped below 10% recently because of (your not gonna believe it) melting snow water that entered the electrical systems and caused chortcuts in the electrical systems of the train. What a wonderfull product, a leaking train.....


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## Nexis

Maarten Otto said:


> SLT reliability has dropped below 10% recently because of (your not gonna believe it) melting snow water that entered the electrical systems and caused chortcuts in the electrical systems of the train. What a wonderfull product, a leaking train.....


Sounds like rushed production......how many SLT's does NS own?


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## pietje01

Nexis said:


> Sounds like rushed production......how many SLT's does NS own?


No apperantly it has something to do with an altered design of the airflow for cooling the electronics.hno:
The alteration was requested by NS, they probably regret this deerly :rofl:


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## Maarten Otto

Nexis said:


> Sounds like rushed production......how many SLT's does NS own?


NS itself owns no trains. The lease company NS Financial services is responsible for rolling stock procurement and dry lease to NS.

But there are 99 sets.


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## Sol

^^ NS Financial Services is a 100% subsidiary of N.V. Nederlandse Spoorwegen (NS). So, what is your point?

Besides that, "NS itself owns no trains" doesn't mean anything if you don't know the terms of the contracts (financial lease, operational lease, something between financial/operational lease?). I only know that NSFS is founded for tax reasons.


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## woutero

News about the High Speed Trains:

_Breda in April_
High speed service will be extended to the city of Breda as of Apri 4th 2011. It will take 25 minutes between Rotterdam and Breda. Breda will now be directly connected with Schiphol Airport. Travel time between Breda and Amsterdam Centraal will be cut by 34 minutes, and will be 1:09h. This will all be done with the temporary trains that run 160 km/h.

_Full speed in december 2011_
In december 2011 the high speed trains will finally become operational, so that the speed on the line can be upgraded to 250km/h. NS Hispeed announced that the trains will be delivered by AnsaldoBreda this summer, and will be integrated in the 2012 service.

_Lower rates_
The number of travellers on the high speed trains between Rotterdam and Amsterdam have been low. But due to problems with other trains, NS have gotten rid of the supplement ticket in january 2011. It may come as no surprise that now the trains have filled up. From february 2011 on, NS Hispeed has lowered the rates for Fyra trains. For instance, the supplement between Schiphol and Rotterdam was €6 each way, and will be lowered to €2.


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## Suburbanist

*Public transport smart card in use nationwide*

It affects not only rail, but I think the news are important anyway:

_The public transport smart card can be used in buses, trains, trams and the metro nationwide from Wednesday, news agency ANP reports.
Groningen and Drenthe provinces are the last regions to be connected to the ov-chipkaart system. That should have happened in December but there were problems with the supply of the card readers, ANP said.

Paper tickets will now be gradually phased out over much of the country. They have already been scrapped in the Rotterdam and Amsterdam metropolitan regions._

One expected effect is that Arriva trains in Friesland and Groningen will now accept OV Chipkaart as mean of payment. This is a very bold move and I hope to see all paper ticket machines gone in 2013 at the latest! Then, anyone travelling in Netherlands will need a smart card and the gate isolation of fare-paying areas of many big train stations will go on.


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## Coccodrillo

Some coaches of an AnsaldoBreda train waiting in the factory on the 7th March 2011.


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## Suburbanist

*Ticket price cuts boost Fyra high-speed train service*

Use of the high-speed train Fyra between Amsterdam and Rotterdam has more than doubled since the supplementary fee was slashed, according to NS figures.
In the last quarter of 2010, 215,000 people used the train, but that rose to 550,000 in the first three months of 2010.

In January, the supplement was scrapped altogether and in February and March it was cut from €6 to €2.10.

In February, transport minister Melanie Schultz van Haegen warned the company charged with operating high speed trains in the Netherlands is in financial trouble and action needs to be taken to avoid bankruptcy.

The company, High Speed Alliance, is 90% owned by the Dutch national railways NS and 10% by Air France-KLM. They won sole operating rights 10 years ago, well before the track was completed.


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## Busfotodotnl

Today, the 2th of april 2011, the service on the HSL-Zuid is extended from Rotterdam to Breda.

From now one, the next services use the HSL-Zuid
10x daily: Thalys Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol Amsterdam Airport - Rotterdam Centraal - Antwerp Centraal - Brussels Midi - Paris Nord
32x daily: Fyra Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol Amsterdam Airport - Rotterdam Centraal - Breda

More official information here (officially services start 4th of april, but you can travel on the 2th and 3th as well).


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## Suburbanist

*NS wants to introduce evening peak fares*

NS is reported to be considering a new fare scheme that would introduce an evening peak fare. As it stands now, subscribers of NS travel cards (€ 55/year) can travel with 40% discounted fares outside the morning peak, which lasts until 9:00 weekdays. Now, NS is considering to introduce an evening peak also (17:00-19:00) because trains are increasingly crowded at that time.


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## AlexNL

To add to that: current subscribers will be able to keep using their cards as nothing will change for them (until the subscription expires I think, it might be possible NS would not allow a renewal).

Apart from that, NS will be introducing several new passes which will replace the Off-peak Hours Pass (Voordeelurenabonnement, VDU):


*Dal Voordeel*
This pass pretty much resembles the current Voordeelurenabonnement: it gives a 40% discount during off-peak hours, and will cost € 50 per year. 
It should be noted that this subscription does not give full day discount in july and august, unlike the current VDU.
*Weekend Vrij*
This pass is the same as above, but allows for unlimited travel at no extra cost during weekends. Will cost € 40 per month (2nd class).
*Dal Vrij*
This pass extends the unlimited travel of _Weekend Vrij_ to all off-peak hours and will be available for purchase for the price of € 95 per month (2nd class).
*Altijd Voordeel*
This pass gives a 20% discount during peak hours and 40% during off-peak and weekends. € 20 per month.
*Altijd Vrij*
This pass allows for unlimited travel during peak and off-peak hours and weekends, will cost € 295 per month (2nd class).
Peak-hours: on business days (i.e. mon - fri) this means the time period between 6:30 AM and 9:00 AM (morning peak), and 16:00 - 18:30 (evening rush hour)
Off-peak hours: 9:00 AM - 16:00, and after 18:30. Saturday and Sunday are off-peak for the entire day.

Please note that these products are valid only on trains operated by NS, and not on services operated by Veolia, Arriva, Syntus and Connexxion. The subscriptions can be purchased per month. The current VDU will be available until August 1st. After August 1st, only the new subscriptions as outlined above will be available for purchase. They will be issued on a OV-chipkaart, which will be the only way of using them.

For more information, please visit NS.nl (only in Dutch).


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> Apart from that, NS will be introducing several new passes which will replace the Off-peak Hours Pass (Voordeelurenabonnement, VDU):
> 
> 
> [*]*Dal Vrij*
> This pass extends the unlimited travel of _Weekend Vrij_ to all off-peak hours and will be available for purchase for the price of € 95 per month (2nd class).


I was invited as a tester of this plan, but I didn't want to pay € 95 to ride trains when I didn't need it. I'm afraid, though, that this clearly subsidized plan will benefit those who need it less: mobile workers travelling on companies' expenses. It is a bargain for those travelling often during the workday (think of sales representatives). It reflects the low occupation of seats during these times, hovering likely around 15%-25% at most off-peak.

What I question is: shouldn't NS reduce frequency of services instead of selling those seats in subscription plans cheap? Do we really need 2 Maastricht-Amsterdam/Schiphol Intercity services per hour off-peak instead of one every 45 or 50 minutes? Couldn't NS rest some trains and their crews off-peak?



> [*]*Altijd Voordeel*
> This pass gives a 20% discount during peak hours and 40% during off-peak and weekends. € 20 per month.


I think this will be hugely popular with commuters. The € 120/year fee easily pays off with peak time discounts.



> [*]*Altijd Vrij*
> This pass allows for unlimited travel during peak and off-peak hours and weekends, will cost € 295 per month (2nd class).


This is actually the equivalent of the Jaarabonementen for unlimited distances (whole network) of NS trains, prices are close too. 



> Please note that these products are valid only on trains operated by NS, and not on services operated by Veolia, Arriva, Syntus and Connexxion. The subscriptions can be purchased per month.


I guess ICE Frankfurt/Basel, Fyra, Thalys and IC Berlin are also excluded from these subscription trains as they are operated by NS Hispeed, DB and Thalys.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> I was invited as a tester of this plan, but I didn't want to pay € 95 to ride trains when I didn't need it. I'm afraid, though, that this clearly subsidized plan will benefit those who need it less: mobile workers travelling on companies' expenses. It is a bargain for those travelling often during the workday (think of sales representatives). It reflects the low occupation of seats during these times, hovering likely around 15%-25% at most off-peak.
> 
> What I question is: shouldn't NS reduce frequency of services instead of selling those seats in subscription plans cheap? Do we really need 2 Maastricht-Amsterdam/Schiphol Intercity services per hour off-peak instead of one every 45 or 50 minutes? Couldn't NS rest some trains and their crews off-peak?


I think reducing frequencies will be counter-effective. NS aims at achieving growth during off-peak hours (and relieving rush hour a bit as those trains are almost full), but to do this the off-peak services need to be attractive.

I agree that NS could perhaps use their trains and people a bit more efficient, take the 800 series for example. This train runs from Alkmaar to Sittard, and then splits into two trains of which one goes to Maastricht and the other one to Heerlen, and vice versa.

While this makes perfect sense during rush hour (it is more attractive to passengers to Utrecht and beyond to not have to change trains) it results in at least two trainsets (but sometimes even 3) running the entire length to Alkmaar and back, which could be overkill. A long while ago, I saw 12 double decker carriages passing by 's-Hertogenbosch station.

I think it could be done with half the capacity, but it would also mean people would have to change trains. Even if it's a guaranteed cross-platform change, people experience it as a delay and an uncertainty in their trip.

NS aims to offer a "gecadanseerd" schedule. This means that the timetable is the same every hour, as this makes it easier for passengers to remember when their train leaves, and from which platform.

Therefor I think reducing frequencies is a bad idea, and changing series is a bad idea as well.


> I think this will be hugely popular with commuters. The € 120/year fee easily pays off with peak time discounts.


You mean: € 240,- a year. ;-)


> This is actually the equivalent of the Jaarabonementen for unlimited distances (whole network) of NS trains, prices are close too.


Yes it is, the difference being that the current Jaarabonnement allows all trains, also those of Veolia. This one doesn't, it's only NS.


> I guess ICE Frankfurt/Basel, Fyra, Thalys and IC Berlin are also excluded from these subscription trains as they are operated by NS Hispeed, DB and Thalys.


Thalys is excluded as it's a reservation only service (Thalys is always excluded from promotions and even the current Jaarabonnement), yet all the other services will be included.

IC Brussel runs as an additional intercity in the Netherlands and can be used for domestic travel without any reservation or supplement. IC Berlin is fully integrated into the timetable and even replaces a normal train service. Those IC services will be included in these subscription plans.

Fyra is a domestic intercity service and will be included, but a supplement will be required. In the future, this can be put on a OV-chipkaart as well.

I am not sure about ICE, but from what I've read on Twitter it will be included (just like it is nowadays) and a supplement will not be required.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> What I question is: shouldn't NS reduce frequency of services instead of selling those seats in subscription plans cheap? Do we really need 2 Maastricht-Amsterdam/Schiphol Intercity services per hour off-peak instead of one every 45 or 50 minutes? Couldn't NS rest some trains and their crews off-peak?





AlexNL said:


> NS aims to offer a "gecadanseerd" schedule. This means that the timetable is the same every hour, as this makes it easier for passengers to remember when their train leaves, and from which platform.


Sometimes the only reduction obtained when rail services are cut is in comfort for passengers: halving the number of trains on a given line doesn't halves the costs of keeping the railway running. Shortening the trains (like from 3 to 2 EMU in multiple) may be a better idea, especially if this allow maintenance work during the day (instead of night).

Cadenced timetables (symmetric, with trains every (sub)multiple of 60 minutes) are not only a way to help passengers, but also a system to save money. A simple exmple is a single track line with a train roughly every hour, where trains cross themselves always on different stations. With a symmetric tibetable they cross always on the same stations, so crossing points may be reduced (even if sometimes this may not be a good idea). On a bigger scale, this allow a lot of traffic with fewer tracks, compared with the same traffic without coordination.


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## Suburbanist

Something NS should do is get away with trains that are coupled/decoupled. I don't understand the point of having them, particularly on Leeuwarden/Groningen-Den Haag/Rotterdam route that couple/uncouple on both ends.

They should have fixed routes, for instance: Den Haag-Groningen, and Rotterdam-Leeuwarden, without any coupling/de-coupling.

They should also have fixed trains on Maastricht/Heerlen-Alkmaar/Schiphol routes: fix the routes to Heerlen-Alkmaar and Maastricht-Schiphol only, without the fuss about attaching cars in Sittard.


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## AlexNL

I don't see much possibilities for that either, once the High Frequent Rail Transport programme is a regular thing, there will be 6 intercity trains per hour per direction between Amsterdam and Eindhoven (ETMET), on top of that there will be Sprinter services (Breda - Utrecht, Tilburg University - Eindhoven and Deurne - Nijmegen) and cargo.

Not coupling those trains will require additional train paths and I am not sure if that capacity is even available with ETMET.


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> Not coupling those trains will require additional train paths and I am not sure if that capacity is even available with ETMET.


What I was thinking was something like this: when a Rotterdam Leeuwarden train is running, an Intercity departs from Den Haag and ends in Gouda, where people northbound connect to the train from Rotterdam. Then, at Meppel, another Intercity departs to Groningen after the Rotterdam train arrives, providing connections.

Same could happen in the south: when a train is coming from Alkmaar, instead of being de-coupled in Sittard it could follow straight to Heerlen, and a short Intercity Sittard-Maastricht would depart 4 min later.

Anyway, with the completion of the Hanzelijn, I guess travelling by Fyra from Rotterdam to Schiphol then travelling on a Schiphol-Zwolle service via Lelysta will be faster than taking Gouda-Amersfoort trains,.


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## AlexNL

What you are proposing is definitely an option, but it won't be effective: study has shown that for each change of train, passengers experience it as a 15 minute delay. Each change also make the train a less attractive option.


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> What you are proposing is definitely an option, but it won't be effective: study has shown that for each change of train, passengers experience it as a 15 minute delay. Each change also make the train a less attractive option.


5 minutes are enough for a connection in a relatively small station with 6 or 8 platforms. Today, de-coupling trains in Sittard take at least 8 minutes (if you check the aankmost/vertrek data on the Internet). 

Some passengers would rather ride a 3 hour stoptrein without connections than a 2h Intercity journey with 4 connections. I even read somewhere people complaining when the network was reorganized in 2006 because direct strop trains from further north to Amsterdam were cut in 2 or 3 and people were now "forced" to connect even if the change saved them 20 min of travel time or more.

I bet some people will complain loudly of the restructuring of services on Schiphol-Den Haag-Rotterdam route when Fyra comes full service in December and direct Intercity are cut in Leiden or Den Haag Centraal.


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## AlexNL

I can understand it too: a direct train provides certainty, you can just remain seated. Not having to worry about "Where is my connecting train?", "Oh crap, this train is 10 minutes delayed and now I will miss the connecting service" et cetera.



> I bet some people will complain loudly of the restructuring of services on Schiphol-Den Haag-Rotterdam route when Fyra comes full service in December and direct Intercity are cut in Leiden or Den Haag Centraal.


These cuts are unneccessary and I believe are intended to push those passengers into the more expensive Fyra trains. The alternative (direct service) will be diverted through Haarlem and will be slowed significantly as more stations along that route are 'upgraded' to an intercity station.

So I can understand any potential uproar about those.


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## Busfotodotnl

Today the first trains run in one direction through the new Hanzelijn-bridge near Zwolle. For now, only the trains Amersfoort-Zwolle run through this bridge. After 12-12-2012, the new link Lelystad-Zwolle will run there as well.

A cabride of the first train this morning:


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## Suburbanist

*End of paper tickets in NL*

NS has announced that OV chipkaart (RFID smartcards) will be the only possible mean of payment of train fares in Netherlands from late 2012. This is 6 months after the initially planned phase-out of paper tickets on inter-city trains.

Local public transportation systems are also implementing the same card. In many regions, they are the only possible mean of using transit, save for an expensive single-trip disposable RFID card one can buy from conductors in certain trams and buses. A flat fee + distance-based fare is now applicable on transit, instead of the outdated and overdone zonal system in use before, based on mechanical stamps of cards market with strips.

Only exceptions to the card requirement will be passengers using international train tickets that entitles travel with NS trains for part of the journey and those using rail passes.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> NS has announced that OV chipkaart (RFID smartcards) will be the only possible mean of payment of train fares in Netherlands from late 2012. This is 6 months after the initially planned phase-out of paper tickets on inter-city trains.
> 
> Local public transportation systems are also implementing the same card. In many regions, they are the only possible mean of using transit, save for an expensive single-trip disposable RFID card one can buy from conductors in certain trams and buses. A flat fee + distance-based fare is now applicable on transit, instead of the outdated and overdone zonal system in use before, based on mechanical stamps of cards market with strips.
> 
> Only exceptions to the card requirement will be passengers using international train tickets that entitles travel with NS trains for part of the journey and those using rail passes.


As usual anything that makes transit less attractive is heralded as progress by suburbanist...


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## Slagathor

K_ said:


> As usual anything that makes transit less attractive is heralded as progress by suburbanist...


:lol:


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> As usual anything that makes transit less attractive is heralded as progress by suburbanist...


How a national transit card, that will be accepted in any land-based public transportation in the country but taxis, from Intercity trains to passenger river ferries makes transit "less attractive"?

That card can be programed to be reloaded automatically whenever it reaches the minimum threshold, meaning you don't need to buy a ticker ever. Their are valid for 5 years and are being handled out for €2. So for 95% of transit users, or more, it is going to simplify payment, and also bring savings as they are going to close tickets sales point in all but a handful of major train stations.

Only foreign tourists might have a harder time trying to figure out the system, as most are used only to oh-so-1960 colored paper tickets.


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## Silly_Walks

I love the idea of the OV-chipcard, but there is certainly room for improvement.
There are a lot little annoyances that i didn't have when using the Octopus card in Hong Kong.

Just to learn from example:

Make the anonymous card cheaper. € 7.50 is too much. Make it € 5.00 at most. Don't force people to get the € 2.00 registered one. Also make it a "borg": when people hand their card back in, make them get their € 5.00 (or € 7.50 as it is now) back.

Keep the card valid till it breaks. The Octopus card is valid forever, why does the OV-Chipcard have to be any different? And if they really have technical reasons for the short validity, then at least let people hand in their expired cards to get their € 7.50 back.

Make an anonymous card for children and senior citizens. There is an Octopus card like this, and it would be like the old "pink" strippenkaart that we already had. There's no reason not to do this: if people don't want to pay, there's already ways to do that. They won't get a "pink OV-Chipcard" just to pay less. They would still be screwed when being checked, as they would be with a pink strippenkaart.

Make it easier to charge. In Hong Kong all you have to do is hop into a 7/11, put your card on a pad, give the person behind the desk some money and they will charge it onto your card. In The Netherlands the equivalent could be the places where they now have those yellow "charging stations", which accept no cash: Albert Heijn, Primera, etc. They will be happy to receive customers at the desk, since Primera owners have already complained about losing customers because they no longer have to come to the desk to buy a strippenkaart, where they usually also buy other things while they are there.

Make the beeps at check-in and check-out louder, make the message on the screen more clear.
During rush-our in the Amsterdam metro, it's basically impossible to hear and see whether your card checked out, or whether you're just walking through the door opened by the person in front of you. It's really annoying when bad design like this costs you 4 euros. It hasn't cost me money yet, but it has cost me time: the check-in gate didn't give me any message whether i had been checked in, so i had to go back to one of the blue poles to see... i had been checked in succesfully. Thanks for telling me.
So: make sure your machines work, and make sure they work ergonomically.

Make the paper cards cheaper. Right now there is a one-hour card for public transport in Amsterdam, which costs € 2,60. This is a good price for someone who has to travel for one hour, but for someone who only wants to go 1 or 2 stops and otherwise never uses public transportation, this is insane. Make a half-hour card for € 1,30.


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## Slagathor

I'm with you. I don't see why we had to reinvent the wheel and then proceed to come up with a worse design when we might have just copied a perfectly functioning system from elsewhere in the world.

But of course by the same token we might have just asked the French to build our highspeed railway line and get some of their trains 2nd hand and on the cheap. But nooo, we had to do it all ourselves. And **** it up. hno:


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> How a national transit card, that will be accepted in any land-based public transportation in the country but taxis, from Intercity trains to passenger river ferries makes transit "less attractive"?


You don't need a chip card to have an integrated tariff system. So the fact that the OV Chipcard offers this is a weak argument. 

The whole system is flawed in principle. In a conventional, paper based system as a passenger you are yourself responsible for having the right transportation title on you when you travel. Paper tickets are easily understandable by everyone, and can be checked without special equipment. 

Yesterday when I took the bus I stamped my ticket(as usual) and then noticed that the stamping machine had obviously run out of ink, as it had cut of a piece of my 12 trips card, but not stamped the line next to the piece it cut of. So I just went to the bus driver, and he wrote in the time and the stop I boarded at in by hand. Problem solved. However, had I not done that I would have had a hard time explaining my self to the train conductor of the train I took as the second part of my trip. 
But as the integrated tariff around here uses simple paper tickets that any user can understand the problem was avoided.

You can't audit a chipcard without the right equipment.
When I was last in London, I used to Oyster Card. When transferring from the DLR to the Underground at Canary Warf I somehow overlooked the machine where I had to "check out" after using the DLR. So I ended up not being able to pass the gate at the underground station. I went to a staffed ticket booth, where my Oyster Card was checked and somehow fixed, so I could now enter the underground station. This was done without questions asked.
This shows me that the system is actually open to manipulation, and that the only way for the manipulation to be limited is that the transport company takes it upon itself to make sure everyone has the right ticket before boarding a vehicle. So you suddenly need gates at every station, and more importantly you need staff at every station. On the London Underground the stations are all staffed, and all have gates. On the DLR the stations don't have gates and are mostly unstaffed, which means that "checking out" with your Chip Card is not enforced. 

So with a chipcard you need to have gates at every transit stop. You need staff at every transit stop too. (In the UK at stations with gates they are left open when there is no staff present). So it works in urban transit, but not in a country wide regional system. A lot of train stations in the Netherlands are unstaffed, and therefore you can get on a train without any problem. Since a passenger cannot herself verify that the Chip Card "check in" machine did the right thing before she boards a train she cannot be expected to have the right transport title when checked on board. I wonder what will happen once someone challenges the system in court afte having been given a fine for not properly checking in...
But even when it works the system is quite open to being abused and gamed in many ways. Especially since the work of the ticket inspectors has suddenly gotten a lot harder too. One trick is checking in, and checking out again immediately. When a ticket inspector comes you just claim you did the right thing, but the machine obviously didn't. 
I wouldn't be surprised if over the next years public transport companies in the Netherlands saw a reduction in revenue.


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## Suburbanist

^^ They addressed many of your concerns.




K_ said:


> The whole system is flawed in principle. In a conventional, paper based system as a passenger you are yourself responsible for having the right transportation title on you when you travel. Paper tickets are easily understandable by everyone, and can be checked without special equipment.


This is just anti-progress. Airline tickets, AFAIK, until the late 1990s were in paper-based versions that actually represented the tickets and had value in themselves. I guess some people might have complained about e-tickets being "open to manipulation" or else.

More important, the urban transportation in the whole country was converted into a km-based system, which is usually most fair in a country without very big metro areas or extreme high-density origin/destination points. There is a flat entrance fee (€ 0,70) + km-based fee. Changes (connections) within a certain time threshold, calculated automatically, don't imply in a new entrance fee being charged.

This is more sensible and precise than the old system of fare zones. However, it would be very difficult to sign and sell tickets for km-based journeys without an automated collection system. The passenger would have to calculate the distance of the journey and buy a ticket for the equivalent fare (OV Chipkaart have precision on € 0,01). You'd have to have massive panels of all possible combinations between two stops within a network in places like Amsterdam or Rotterdam-Den Haag. Then, you'd have to deal with enhanced and tweaked fare discounts rules.



> You can't audit a chipcard without the right equipment.


Every conductor in public transportation in NL has the "right equipment".



> . So you suddenly need gates at every station, and more importantly you need staff at every station. On the London Underground the stations are all staffed, and all have gates. On the DLR the stations don't have gates and are mostly unstaffed, which means that "checking out" with your Chip Card is not enforced.
> 
> So with a chipcard you need to have gates at every transit stop. You need staff at every transit stop too. (In the UK at stations with gates they are left open when there is no staff present). So it works in urban transit, but not in a country wide regional system. A lot of train stations in the Netherlands are unstaffed, and therefore you can get on a train without any problem.


Netherlands has a place to put fare gates in major train stations platforms. They also have an "incentive" system here: a €4 to € 40 balance is required on your card before checking in (depending if it is an urban, 1st class rail, 2st class rail or any of them with discount plans). €4 or € 20 is what 99% of possible combinations of urban transit or intercity train 2nd class with discount, respectively, will cost. If you check-out properly, your card is "refunded" to make it a net withdraw of your payable fare (it appears on a display the moment you check-out, contrary to Oyster). If not, you lose the whole money withdrawn on check-in.

The OV Chipkaart also makes it easier to make trips that are partially on peak and partially off-peak. Up to now, they had just a single discount card: € 55/year for 40% off-peak (all times but Mon-Fri 6h30-9h) discount. Now, with improved ticketing with the RFID card, they introduced an evening (16h30-19h) peak, and different discount plans like € 20/month for 20% peak + 40% off-peak discount, € 45/month for unlimited weekend travel + 40% off-peak discount, € 95/month for unlimited off-peak and weekend travel + 40% off-peak discount.

If you were travelling on a journey that comprised peak and off-peak, you'd have to buy 2 paper tickets, with a break in the first city after the 9h or before 6h30, if you didn't want to just pay full fare all the way. Now, the chipkaart automatically calculates that.



> Since a passenger cannot herself verify that the Chip Card "check in" machine did the right thing before she boards a train she cannot be expected to have the right transport title when checked on board.


The Dutch OV Chipkaart readers display a color, a sound, and a written advise upon touching to certify your card is good for travel. The sound for successful check-in or failed check-in is clearly different. One is green, other is red.



> One trick is checking in, and checking out again immediately. When a ticket inspector comes you just claim you did the right thing, but the machine obviously didn't.


Dutch OV Chipkaart readers cannot check-in and check-out at the same card within 150 sec. A third signal (yellow) and a written message says you already checked in (or out) and can't repeat it. This was done specifically to prevent the scenario you described.

It is the obligation of the passenger to assure him/herself that he/she had the proper travel title. In reality, it is not much different than a challenge of current system: people could claim the stamp machines were broken (some small stations had just one per platform). Foreigners would board trains from Amsterdam to Zaandam using their invalid (for that journey) tourist transport cards for 24 or 72h. 


So, you see, the Dutch system is more resourceful than Oyster or Octopus cards. Those were meant only for use on systems that were 100% either gated or staffed controlled (like buses). The OV Chipkaart has a more ample scope.


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## krulstaartje

The biggest (and only, if you think about) failure of the OV-chipcard is that it misaligns the burdens and costs of implementation, the transitory costs that come with the incredibly stupid decision to develop a system from scratch instead of adopting Oyster. Examples:
-Studentenkaart administrative failures.
-Costs of 'forgetting' to check out.
-Confusion created by the multiple cards needed for specific-operator discount fares.

These are not theoretical problems like K_'s, but actualy, real observed problems. The problem is that the costs for these things are now burdens on the *user* instead of the *operator*. That's bad for two reasons.

(1) It's a cost to those users, which is unfair, creates a backlash against the system as a whole which leads to costly delays--for example the parliamentary response.

(2) More importantly, aligns economic incentives wrong, as those able to fix things have pretty small incentives to change stuff. It earns them money, after all. But even when taking a more nuanced, less conspiracy-theory view, it's about priorities, about executives and management pushing things through, and about private sector taking a stance and just going to fix something.

TLS are complete ****heads, so much is clear. Connexion and Arriva have exited the organisation because of that reason. Left is a bunch of bureaucrats and consultants without any private sector incentives, or monetary incentives at all, to do a decent job. More positively framed: if Connexion and Arriva were losing millions a year because of TLS failures, those failures would be fixed already. That's the failure of the OV-chipcard.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> This is just anti-progress. Airline tickets, AFAIK, until the late 1990s were in paper-based versions that actually represented the tickets and had value in themselves. I guess some people might have complained about e-tickets being "open to manipulation" or else.
> 
> 
> 
> Repeat after me:
> Trains are not planes.
> Trains are not planes.
> Trains are not planes.
> Do this a couple of times, and then we can continue.
> 
> A big difference between a train and a plane is that a plane has a passenger manifest. Think about that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More important, the urban transportation in the whole country was converted into a km-based system, which is usually most fair in a country without very big metro areas or extreme high-density origin/destination points. There is a flat entrance fee (€ 0,70) + km-based fee. Changes (connections) within a certain time threshold, calculated automatically, don't imply in a new entrance fee being charged.
> This is more sensible and precise than the old system of fare zones. However, it would be very difficult to sign and sell tickets for km-based journeys without an automated collection system. The passenger would have to calculate the distance of the journey and buy a ticket for the equivalent fare (OV Chipkaart have precision on € 0,01). You'd have to have massive panels of all possible combinations between two stops within a network in places like Amsterdam or Rotterdam-Den Haag. Then, you'd have to deal with enhanced and tweaked fare discounts rules.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need a chip card for that. In Switzerland I can just go to a ticket vending machine, type in where I want to go to, and I'll get a ticket, that includes trains and buses (and sometimes even boats and cable cars) based on the tarrif system the companies involved use. Sometimes it is km based, sometimes zone based. It works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every conductor in public transportation in NL has the "right equipment".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not every train has a conductor on it. And even if it has a conductor, you often don't encounter one. Which means that you only find out you are not in order until you meet the conductor... What happens then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Netherlands has a place to put fare gates in major train stations platforms. They also have an "incentive" system here: a €4 to € 40 balance is required on your card before checking in (depending if it is an urban, 1st class rail, 2st class rail or any of them with discount plans). €4 or € 20 is what 99% of possible combinations of urban transit or intercity train 2nd class with discount, respectively, will cost. If you check-out properly, your card is "refunded" to make it a net withdraw of your payable fare (it appears on a display the moment you check-out, contrary to Oyster). If not, you lose the whole money withdrawn on check-in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which means you need to have 20,- euro on you chipcard when you take the train to Schiphol to fly out, making this trip quite costly if you don't return to the Netherlands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Dutch OV Chipkaart readers display a color, a sound, and a written advise upon touching to certify your card is good for travel. The sound for successful check-in or failed check-in is clearly different. One is green, other is red.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't forget that soon the majority of people on public transit will be senior citizens, whose hearing and eyesight is not what it once was... Combine that with a bus or tram stops where lots of people want to get on or off, and there will be delays. At least with the oyster card you don't have to check out on buses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is the obligation of the passenger to assure him/herself that he/she had the proper travel title.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And as I told you earlier: With a chipcard you cannot expect the passenger to be responsible for this anymore, as the individual passenger cannot audit the chipcard. So the burden is placed upon the transit company. Just wait for the first court case...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Mr_Dru

^^^
It just takes a generation to get used with the Chipkaart. The current generation already use the Studenten OV Chipkaart (students are traveling for free). They don't use papers-tickets for any public transportation anyway. So in the future they don't know better.

In the old days we had ticket counters with personals. Now we have ticket machines. In the beginning everybody was complaining that the counters were replace by machines. But today nobody complains anymore. 

I guess only the main stations with cities 150.000+ inhabitants have a personal ticket-counter, that's only is used by elderly people or tourist.


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## Sol

Mr_Dru said:


> ^^^
> It just takes a generation to get used with the Chipkaart.


A generation? At most two weeks for 95% of the people.


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## K_

Sol said:


> A generation? At most two weeks for 95% of the people.


And in the third week they find out how to abuse the system to their advantage, leading to reduced revenue for the transit companies...


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> And in the third week they find out how to abuse the system to their advantage, leading to reduced revenue for the transit companies...


And who says there hasn't been users trying to cheat the system as it was/is?

One of the major problems of fare evasion in NL had been misuse of Student free travel cards on their previous incarnation as paper passes. 

There is also the case of strangers, mostly the backpacker type, asking you to get a discount ride on a train your are boarding (someone with travel discount cards can take 2 more people travelling with discount, provided they are in the same route).


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> There is also the case of strangers, mostly the backpacker type, asking you to get a discount ride on a train your are boarding (someone with travel discount cards can take 2 more people travelling with discount, provided they are in the same route).


How is that cheating?


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## sekelsenmat

How much do you have to pay more for a ticket if you buy in the train? I had a lot of trouble buying a ticket in the netherlands because the machines don't accept notes =O only coins and credit cards, and maybe half of them not even coins ...


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## K_

sekelsenmat said:


> How much do you have to pay more for a ticket if you buy in the train? I had a lot of trouble buying a ticket in the netherlands because the machines don't accept notes =O only coins and credit cards, and maybe half of them not even coins ...


You can't buy a ticket on board anymore. If the conductor comes, and you don't have a ticket whatever the reason you are a fare evader. 
If you can identify yourself you can aply for an "uitstel van betaling", which means you don't have to pay the fine immediately, but can first appeal the fine, giving the reason for not having a ticket. And if you did indeed have a valid reason (not having enough coins for the ticket vending machine is not a valid reason) the fine might be waved.


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## Slagathor

sekelsenmat said:


> How much do you have to pay more for a ticket if you buy in the train? I had a lot of trouble buying a ticket in the netherlands because the machines don't accept notes =O only coins and credit cards, and maybe half of them not even coins ...


Count yourself among thousands of tourists who wonder the same. The NS ticket machines are absolutely retarded. They don't accept notes or major credit cards nor foreign debit cards. It's like they don't acknowledge the existence of the rest of the world.


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## sekelsenmat

K_ said:


> You can't buy a ticket on board anymore. If the conductor comes, and you don't have a ticket whatever the reason you are a fare evader.


How much is the fine?


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## Suburbanist

sekelsenmat said:


> How much is the fine?


At least € 38 (plus any ticket costs).



Slagathor said:


> Count yourself among thousands of tourists who wonder the same. The NS ticket machines are absolutely retarded. They don't accept notes or major credit cards nor foreign debit cards. It's like they don't acknowledge the existence of the rest of the world.


The machines at Schiphol Airport do accept credit cards. In any case, the best course of action for tourists is to buy a disposable OV Chipkaart and load it with money. As OV Chipkaart is being rolled in, I don't think NS will update its ticket machines, since they will be retired anyway soon.


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## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> The machines at Schiphol Airport do accept credit cards. In any case, the best course of action for tourists is to buy a disposable OV Chipkaart and load it with money.


You can't load additional cash onto a disposable OV Chipkaart. There are three types:

* Personalized OV Chipkaart. Obviously not suitable for tourists.
* Anonymous OV Chipkaart. Suitable for tourists, but it costs 7,50 which is a lot if you're only here for a few days.
* Disposable OV Chipkaart. Only the RET and the GVB currently offer them and you can't use them with any other company (so you can't take them on the train).

That means if you're visiting Holland as a family of 4 people, you'll spend 30 euro on buying an Anonymous OV Chipkaart. Then you have to activate them (a separate process) and then NS requires you to put at least 20 euro on each card or the machines won't let you check in. 

NS isn't currently planning to offer an alternative.



> As OV Chipkaart is being rolled in, I don't think NS will update its ticket machines, since they will be retired anyway soon.


Doesn't excuse the initial stupidity.


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## Vliegtuigbouwert

hno:
When I went to Hongkong you could borrow a cheap rechargeable card at the airport suitable for all kind of public transport and even for vending machines throughout the city. Back at the airport a week later I could get a total refund of the bail and the money leftover on that card. Is it really that hard to go to a random Asian Metropolis and copy their public transport system?


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> * Anonymous OV Chipkaart. Suitable for tourists, but it costs 7,50 which is a lot if you're only here for a few days.
> * Disposable OV Chipkaart. Only the RET and the GVB currently offer them and you can't use them with any other company (so you can't take them on the train).
> 
> That means if you're visiting Holland as a family of 4 people, you'll spend 30 euro on buying an Anonymous OV Chipkaart.


I didn't know Disposable OV Chipkaarts can't be used outside RET and GVB networks. Doesn't HET have them also?



> NS isn't currently planning to offer an alternative.


I think they could, then, revamp their ticketing machines, like allowing some form of refund to credit cards. Technically, it shouldn't be difficult to implement sector-specific disposable chipkaarts, e.g., the RFID equivalent of paper tickets, but I doubt NS will do that, as it would remove the incentives for buying a chipkaart. 

Tourists are naturally expected to pay more for use of trains. Any person who rides trains in Netherlands more than 600km a year outside peak time is better of with a off-peak discount card. Tourists don't have that and thus pay 100% fares instead of 60% fares.



> Doesn't excuse the initial stupidity.


Not at all.


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## Suburbanist

Vliegtuigbouwert said:


> hno:
> When I went to Hongkong you could borrow a cheap rechargeable card at the airport suitable for all kind of public transport and even for vending machines throughout the city. Back at the airport a week later I could get a total refund of the bail and the money leftover on that card. Is it really that hard to go to a random Asian Metropolis and copy their public transport system?


A single fare in Netherlands could be far more expensive than in Hong Kong. Think of a Schiphol-Groningen trip, nothing absurd at all. It costs € 23. If one could grab a card for - say - € 10, and check-in to Groningen, one could just ditch the card upon arrival in Groningen, instead of having to top up money before checking-out.

As far as all stations, even minor ones, are not gated (something that will not happen, unfortunately, I think gated stations are safer, more modern, and keep people for going to the platforms if they are not travelling, reducing crowding), you need to have a sufficient high balance on your card to check-in. It should be the maximum fare (€ 23,50 for 2nd class travel).

But a refund scheme should operate at the airport. Maybe some kiosks that give money back when you feed your card back in.


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## Vliegtuigbouwert

^^That makes sense. So you imply that the free entrance to the platforms is the main obstruction for introducing such a system? Many stations have already invested in gates standing there unused for many years now. Some stations like Schiedam Centrum have had operating gates in the past. I wonder how much longer it will take before all stations are equipped with gates and are operating.


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## Slagathor

Vliegtuigbouwert said:


> hno:
> When I went to Hongkong you could borrow a cheap rechargeable card at the airport suitable for all kind of public transport and even for vending machines throughout the city. Back at the airport a week later I could get a total refund of the bail and the money leftover on that card. Is it really that hard to go to a random Asian Metropolis and copy their public transport system?


I know, it's ridiculous. We could have saved billions of euros if we'd asked the French to build our highspeed railway and exploit it and if we'd asked Hong Kong if we could copy their ticket system. But no, we had to reinvent the wheel. Except our wheel is square. hno:



Suburbanist said:


> I didn't know Disposable OV Chipkaarts can't be used outside RET and GVB networks. Doesn't HET have them also?


HTM? No they don't. They make you buy single tickets at the driver. Those are of course more expensive.



> I think they could, then, revamp their ticketing machines, like allowing some form of refund to credit cards. Technically, it shouldn't be difficult to implement sector-specific disposable chipkaarts, e.g., the RFID equivalent of paper tickets, but I doubt NS will do that, as it would remove the incentives for buying a chipkaart.
> 
> Tourists are naturally expected to pay more for use of trains. Any person who rides trains in Netherlands more than 600km a year outside peak time is better of with a off-peak discount card. Tourists don't have that and thus pay 100% fares instead of 60% fares.


Well 60% versus 100% is a difference from that mandatory 7,50 charge for an EMPTY card + that silly minimum of 20 bucks to check in. Imagine if you're going home from a trip in Amsterdam. You want to take the train from Centraal to Schiphol. In order to be able to check in, your card has to have at least 20 bucks on it. Then you check out on Schiphol with some 17 euro still left on your card. And you can't get it back.


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## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> Well 60% versus 100% is a difference from that mandatory 7,50 charge for an EMPTY card + that silly minimum of 20 bucks to check in. Imagine if you're going home from a trip in Amsterdam. You want to take the train from Centraal to Schiphol. In order to be able to check in, your card has to have at least 20 bucks on it. Then you check out on Schiphol with some 17 euro still left on your card. And you can't get it back.


The balance for travelling with discount cards on 2nd class is € 10.

I think the easiest way to solve the problem for the overwhelming majority of international travelers would be to put some refund machines at Schiphol Plaza. It is a 24/7 patrolled area, so no risks in storing money on the machines. They could make the machines work both ways: you can buy an anonymous card for € 27,50. When returning, you can get a refund from whatever money is left, if you return the card. If transforming it in an ATM becomes too much of a hassle, they could transform it in a voucher system to be used within the airport stores.

Same could be done in train border stations like Maastricht Ranwick, Hengelo, Roosendal. Put the machines at Eindhoven airport, Hoek Van Holland ferry terminal, Rotterdam cruise port...

That only, the only people that would be on the hook for a loss would be those leaving the country by Eurolines or some lift with a car driver.


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## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> The balance for travelling with discount cards on 2nd class is € 10.


Tourists don't get the discount.



> I think the easiest way to solve the problem for the overwhelming majority of international travelers would be to put some refund machines at Schiphol Plaza. It is a 24/7 patrolled area, so no risks in storing money on the machines. They could make the machines work both ways: you can buy an anonymous card for € 27,50. When returning, you can get a refund from whatever money is left, if you return the card. If transforming it in an ATM becomes too much of a hassle, they could transform it in a voucher system to be used within the airport stores.
> 
> Same could be done in train border stations like Maastricht Ranwick, Hengelo, Roosendal. Put the machines at Eindhoven airport, Hoek Van Holland ferry terminal, Rotterdam cruise port...
> 
> That only, the only people that would be on the hook for a loss would be those leaving the country by Eurolines or some lift with a car driver.


That could work, but it won't happen. It would cost money twice: first to put up the machines and second by providing refunds.


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## K_

Vliegtuigbouwert said:


> ^^That makes sense. So you imply that the free entrance to the platforms is the main obstruction for introducing such a system? Many stations have already invested in gates standing there unused for many years now. Some stations like Schiedam Centrum have had operating gates in the past. I wonder how much longer it will take before all stations are equipped with gates and are operating.


That will never happen. You can't have gates at unmanned stations. Manning all stations is to expensive.


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## MattN

Rotterdam Centraal has a change machine where you can exchange notes for coins for the ticket machines, but no doubt these aren't available at many stations and are no good for fares which aren't an exact number of euro. 

Otherwise, can prepaid chipknips be used at NS ticket machines? You'd probably still end up with some money left on it by the time you went of course but not so bad as an OV-Chipkaart.


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## Mr_Dru

*new OV Terminals (PT Terminals)*
Currently the four largest trainstations in the Netherlands are in construction.
*Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht*. 
When the stations are finished they will renamed in _Public Transportation Terminals_

*Amsterdam CS*





*Rotterdam CS*





*The Hague CS*





*Utrecht CS*





*Amsterdam Centraal Station*
start 2003-2013 (the new metro 2017)
Huge renovation
New busplatform
New metrostation (metro north-south line)

*Current situation*











Winbuks said:


> Uitgraven bouwput voor de westelijke entree van de nieuwe metroverdeelhal


*Future rendings*


























*New metrostation *



















The Engineer said:


> Dag van de bouw 2011, Kleine selectie van de foto's
> 
> 1. Het prachtige dak van de het station
> 
> 11-05-28 Dag van de bouw 2011 002 by The Engineer 023, on Flickr
> 
> 2. De wand waar straks de metro doorheen rijdt.
> 
> 11-05-28 Dag van de bouw 2011 003 by The Engineer 023, on Flickr
> 
> 3. Overzicht waarbij de posities van de nog te maken schuine kolommen goed te zien zijn. (telkens tussen de 2 stalen kolommen en op de schuine betonblokken)
> 
> 11-05-28 Dag van de bouw 2011 006 by The Engineer 023, on Flickr


*New metrotunnel placed underneath the station*


Momo1435 said:


> Mijn dank gaat wederom naar Wuppeltje en de Dienst Noord/Zuidlijn voor het regelen van perstoegang tot het ponton en Overhoeks. Ik heel veel foto's kunnen maken, hier een selectie met een paar worden .
> 17 nu alleen nog een grote bocht om recht op de ingang van de sluis te komen te liggen.
> 
> 
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> 19. En hij staat recht.
> 
> 
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> 
> Ik heb het dus niet meer afgewacht totdat de tunnel helemaal in de sluis was gevaren.Maar ja, ondanks de vroege ochtend en de regen was het toch een mooie ervaring om het allemaal van iets dichterbij, of beter gezegd van hogerop te kunnen zien tussen alle cameraploegen, fotografen en de medewerkers van de bouwbedrijven/gemeente. Ik zal later ook nog een paar extra foto's plaatsen.


*New busplatform*

















*New docks for the public transporationsferries*










*Rotterdam Centraal Station *
Start 2004-2013
Complete new trainstation
New metro line to The Hague Centraal Station
*
Old building just before the demolition (in the front the construction of the new metrostation)*









*Future rendings*

















































*Current situation*


Eric Offereins said:


> ^^ Jammer dat men er dan niet voor kiest om een veel groter oppervlak met zonnecellen te installeren.
> Zal wel een budgetkwestie zijn geweest.
> 
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## Suburbanist

It has been announced that paper tickets will be discontinued from use in Dutch railways from December 2012.


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## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> It has been announced that paper tickets will be discontinued from use in Dutch railways from December 2012.


Have they said how people coming from abroad will be able to exit the train stations once the gates are closed?


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> It has been announced that paper tickets will be discontinued from use in Dutch railways from December 2012.


It has been announced, but it won't happen, as NS can't stop accepting tickets issued by foreign railways.


----------



## Suburbanist

Silly_Walks said:


> Have they said how people coming from abroad will be able to exit the train stations once the gates are closed?


Gating is a different subject. They haven't settled on closing the gates Dec. 2012, just on the fact NS will not issue paper tickets anymore and all passengers will then be required to carry an OV Chipkaart. They will probably exempt passengers travelling on Thalys and ICE trains from that requirement. 

Possible solution for international travelers include having gate agents on the few stations served by international trains that will be gated (Arnhem, Rotterdam Centraal, Breda, Schiphol, Amsterdam Centraal, Utrecht Centraal, Amersfoort, Hilversum, Maastricht).


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Possible solution for international travelers include having gate agents on the few stations served by international trains that will be gated (Arnhem, Rotterdam Centraal, Breda, Schiphol, Amsterdam Centraal, Utrecht Centraal, Amersfoort, Hilversum, Maastricht).


I can still buy a paper ticket to any Dutch station, not just the main ones served by international trains, at any major station in Switzerland. For NS to stop accepting such tickets the Netherlands would have to cancel quite a few international agreements. 
And there remains the fact that you can't have gates at unmanned stations. So for the foreseable future I expect paper tickets to remain in parallel with the chipcard.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> And there remains the fact that you can't have gates at unmanned stations. So for the foreseable future I expect paper tickets to remain in parallel with the chipcard.


There is no project that I know about gating all Dutch train stations. Just RET is, AFAIK, working to have all its Rotterdam Metro's stations gated. It is easier because of their design.

In any case, the number of passengers buying tickets from abroad to minor stations in NL is small. NS will not sell domestic paper tickets from Dec. 2012, and that surely counts more than 99% of all ticketing activity.

Now I just wish NS dropped from Interrail pass agreement like the British did in the 1980s.


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## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> Now I just wish NS dropped from Interrail pass agreement like the British did in the 1980s.


Why would they want to do that? It brings a lot of tourists through with little direct costs. It is a shame Britain left it but being physically detached from the continent means it probably doesn't lose much.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> NS will not sell domestic paper tickets from Dec. 2012, and that surely counts more than 99% of all ticketing activity.


Is NS no longer going to sell e-tickets too? I can't imagine that NS would be the only railway in Western Europe that doesn't sell tickets via the internet...



> Now I just wish NS dropped from Interrail pass agreement like the British did in the 1980s.


What have you got against interrail?


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## sekelsenmat

> What have you got against interrail?


Well, I think that we all know the answer to that =D Suburbanist is a pro-road fanatic whose hobby is trolling the rail forums in skyscrapercity. He comes here just to propose non-sensical ideas created to harm rail users and make driving look better or else cheer when companies (like NS) enact such idiotic proposals (like dropping paper ticker). He clearly says that he doesn't use trains, because he prefers to drive, and yet he has very strong ideas about how people should use trains (actually he would rather prefer that they don't use). Basically he supports everything which makes rail usage less convenient, more complex, more expensive or else less attractive. Dropping Interrail goes in line with that, so that's why he supports dropping it.


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## Suburbanist

sekelsenmat said:


> cheer when companies (like NS) enact such idiotic proposals (like dropping paper ticker). He clearly says that he doesn't use trains, because he prefers to drive, and yet he has very strong ideas about how people should use trains (actually he would rather prefer that they don't use). Basically he supports everything which makes rail usage less convenient, more complex, more expensive or else less attractive. Dropping Interrail goes in line with that, so that's why he supports dropping it.


NS is becoming more business oriented, a smart card create more opportunities to extract more money from passenger. I have nothing against rail transport as infrastructure, I have everything against diverting funds from road to rail project. But I'm the biggest support of profitable freight and passenger rail operations and high-speed, airline-style priced rail.

Complexity = opportunities for price discrimination = opportunities to earn money and be more competitive and profitable. 

As I always wrote, I think infrastructure is something for governments to take care directly or indirectly, and that includes rail. What I can't cope with are operations of vehicles done by government entities or monopolies auctioned in blocks to private operators with few commercial freedom to set prices, routes etc. In essence, I want to kill the idea of a network of trains that must be coordinated, and leave the idea of a network of tracks, modern, high-speed, state-of-the-art signaled, that any private party can use. Like air or road or water transport.

I want to bring competition, for the sake of competition and choice, even if it degrades service level, for ideological reasons (I'm against state-sponsored monopolies). As a technology, modern trains are quite cool. As a monopoly-based system, it is a curse, a cancer on the economic freedoms that need to be dismantled. But that doesn't mean ripping out tracks or demolishing stations, just dismantling the operational framework and the very concept of a service networks centrally planned. They did it with airlines in the 1980s/1990s, before that time air travel was tightly regulated, national carriers had monopolies, fares were fixed, in many countries schedules of domestic flights were "timed" to offer connections with international flights etc. Free markets gave us Ryanair, Easyjet and the ability to travel to Norway or Portugal paying peanuts. 
======

In that sense of infrastructure, not vehicles, Pro-Rail TRACK network is abysmal: it uses ATB, an outdated system that can't cope with speeds faster than 140 km/h. The should deploy ERTMS-2 in 5 years throughout the network, which could easily allow speed-up of trains as many grade-crossings have been already removed and alignments, well, it is most a flat country here with straightened tracks, so, signaling allowing, not many track improvements would be required to put many lines running at 220 km/h. Yet, they are dropping the ball cancelling projects like the Zuiderzee line to Groningen and Germany.



K_ said:


> Is NS no longer going to sell e-tickets too? I can't imagine that NS would be the only railway in Western Europe that doesn't sell tickets via the internet...


You can buy e-tickets in the future, I suppose, but you will have to load them in you OV Chipkaart. The smart card is already the medium of carrying of many discount plans, student free transport passes, senior concessions etc. So, once the interface is dealt with, the card will be the universal carry of all rail products. 

A colleague of mine told me that German (DB) trains operating regional lines into Netherlands will be soon fit with OV Chipkaart check-in machines inside the trains used in those routes. Therefore, it will be possible for passengers travelling to/from Neteherlands to use OV Chipkaart to pay for the Dutch part of their journey. 



> What have you got against interrail?


It is a financially detrimental product that lost its reason for existence since the international rail market was liberalized. By financial detrimental I mean: rational use of rail for travel will usually mean advanced discount tickets + some national passes will provide cheaper travel. Those using passes are only making a good deal if they are overusing the network. And if so, if they are using rail for impractical journeys, or to travel 500km every day, they should pay accordingly. It would be like Shell selling a "free refuel" card that allows people who want to drive 3.000km in 5 days, like me, and taking a financial hit.

The bottom line is: I see passengers as costumers, as money pits to be dug out of their wallets and pay more if possible. I don't see them as using an essential service when they are travelling long distance, like it were health care or tertiary education.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Suburbanist said:


> The bottom line is: I see passengers as costumers, as money pits to be dug out of their wallets and pay more if possible. I don't see them as using an essential service when they are travelling long distance, like it were health care or tertiary education.


According to that logic, toll-free motorways shouldn't exist and tolled ones should be far more expensive.


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## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> It is a financially detrimental product that lost its reason for existence since the international rail market was liberalized. By financial detrimental I mean: rational use of rail for travel will usually mean advanced discount tickets + some national passes will provide cheaper travel. Those using passes are only making a good deal if they are overusing the network. And if so, if they are using rail for impractical journeys, or to travel 500km every day, they should pay accordingly. It would be like Shell selling a "free refuel" card that allows people who want to drive 3.000km in 5 days, like me, and taking a financial hit.


How is it the same when rail use has little direct costs. If someone using a pass is on a train that requires reservation they have to pay that. Also sleepers require a reservation. Also they are not entirely cheap. In Eastern Europe it is negligable the discount you can achieve unless you do long distances, which take a long time anyway. The rail companies do get a cut of the fares based on estimated usage.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> NS is becoming more business oriented, a smart card create more opportunities to extract more money from passenger.


One of the most efficient railways when it comes to extracting money from passengers is the SBB... Don't you think that this is the model to copy then?



> As I always wrote, I think infrastructure is something for governments to take care directly or indirectly, and that includes rail. What I can't cope with are operations of vehicles done by government entities or monopolies auctioned in blocks to private operators with few commercial freedom to set prices, routes etc. In essence, I want to kill the idea of a network of trains that must be coordinated, and leave the idea of a network of tracks, modern, high-speed, state-of-the-art signaled, that any private party can use. Like air or road or water transport.


There are big differences between the air, the road and the rail networks that make it impossible to operate the rail network exactly like those other networks.
In rail operation Capital is a very large factor of production, much larger than it is for road or rail transport. When the government provides this capital is has a duty (to the taxpayers) to make sure it is used wisely. That means making sure it is efficient. If the government builds an expensive tunnel that can only be used by 5 trains per hour because they neglected to take the way the rest of the network is operated in to account when designing and planning in the result is a waste of a lot of taxpayer money.
There is a reason why the S in "PIGS" doesn't stand for Switzerland... 



> I want to bring competition, for the sake of competition and choice, even if it degrades service level, for ideological reasons (I'm against state-sponsored monopolies).


Before you start to promote something because of "ideology" i'd sugest you get better aquainted with ideology in question first. And before applying it to a sector get to know that sector a bit better too.



> As a technology, modern trains are quite cool. As a monopoly-based system, it is a curse, a cancer on the economic freedoms that need to be dismantled.


A railway line that has a monopoly on a particular line in fact doesn't have a monopoly at all. Saying that NS should not have a monopoly on Amsterdam - Den Haag is like saying that Ford shouldn't have a monopoly on building the Focus...



> In that sense of infrastructure, not vehicles, Pro-Rail TRACK network is abysmal: it uses ATB, an outdated system that can't cope with speeds faster than 140 km/h. The should deploy ERTMS-2 in 5 years throughout the network, which could easily allow speed-up of trains as many grade-crossings have been already removed and alignments, well, it is most a flat country here with straightened tracks, so, signaling allowing, not many track improvements would be required to put many lines running at 220 km/h.


You still need to learn a lot about railways. Installing ETCS (which is planned btw) will not speed trains up a lot. Nor is that in fact needed in such a small country. What ETCS will achieve is shorter train intervals. NS wants to run it's network like a metro, which is for such a small and densely populated country a good concept.
You can't just speed up an existing line just by swapping out the signalling. Have you considered what is involved in increasing the center distance between two tracks? And then we haven't started about upgrading the overhead to 25Kv.



> You can buy e-tickets in the future, I suppose, but you will have to load them in you OV Chipkaart. The smart card is already the medium of carrying of many discount plans, student free transport passes, senior concessions etc. So, once the interface is dealt with, the card will be the universal carry of all rail products.


And how do I load an e-ticket on the chipcard? 



> The bottom line is: I see passengers as costumers, as money pits to be dug out of their wallets and pay more if possible.


Make sure you tell that at your next job interview.


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## Silly_Walks

If ETCS is really planned, first NS will need to have trains that can run on ETCS. I can just imagine ProRail finally installing ETCS, after which no trains can run on those tracks 

Same goes for 25kV.... you'll need trains that can run on both 25kV and 1500V, and as of now, i don't think they have any (not counting Thalys, Fyra and ICE trains).


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## K_

Silly_Walks said:


> If ETCS is really planned, first NS will need to have trains that can run on ETCS. I can just imagine ProRail finally installing ETCS, after which no trains can run on those tracks


Usually ETCS is installed in phases, in a way that allows existing stock to keep running on the network. An example is how the SBB is doing it: They are replacing the physical layer of their existing TPS with one that uses ETCS hardware, but keeps the existing "software". Once the whole network and all rolling stock has the new hardware they will roll out the new software, and have the whole network running on ETCS. But that will not happen for a few years...



> Same goes for 25kV.... you'll need trains that can run on both 25kV and 1500V, and as of now, i don't think they have any (not counting Thalys, Fyra and ICE trains).


The latest generation of trains NS bought are prepared for running under 25kV. All that is needed is adding some equipment, for which the place has already been reserved. 
Anyway, making rolling stock that is capable of running both under AC and DC is rather straightforward nowadays, so much that when NMBS ordere new locomotives from Siemens they had to specifically request that the 15Kv AC capabilities be removed... By default both Bombardier and Siemens now build locomotives that can accept any common overhead supply in Europe.


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## Momo1435

The VIRM and the SLT sets are all prepared for 25 kV, all older trains aren´t.

As for the ETCS, at first it will be installed next to the current ATB. This will happen on the Amsterdam-Utrecht line and on the Hanzeline, Lelystad-Zwolle. This will mean that all the rolling stock will be able to run on these lines, and only the rolling stock with ETCS will use ETCS.

There currently are no further plans to implement ETCS on the entire network. Such a big investment is impossible right now with the current political climate that favors new roads over big railway investments. All the big projects that are under construction right now were all decided by earlier cabinets.


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## Suburbanist

Momo1435 said:


> There currently are no further plans to implement ETCS on the entire network. Such a big investment is impossible right now with the current political climate that favors new roads over big railway investments. All the big projects that are under construction right now were all decided by earlier cabinets.


I guess there are plans to implement ECTS on the Utrecht-Arnhem route also, as it is the route used by fast German trains. Track is being improved here and there.

The cancellation of projects like Zuiderzeelijn and High Speed Ost was decided on the previous cabinet AFAIK.

Projects being floated like Breda-Oosterhout-Gorichem-Utrecht railway would depend on provinces chipping money in, but they'd rather improve the road network as it delivers more mobility per euro.


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## Momo1435

The Zuiderzeelijn and the HSL Oost were axed because of the problems with the HSL Zuid and the Betuweroute, all the political parties where scared to start another big project. It's more the smaller projects, like the doubling of the line to Almere that are being scaled down by this government. In the same category you also see the cuts on the urban transport, that will result in a reduction of connections between the train and the bus. 

The current policies for new roads are just political decisions, there no rational decision making behind it based on mobility studies. It's just to keep the voters happy and distract then from all the other spending cuts at all the other departments like education and healthcare.


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## Suburbanist

Momo1435 said:


> The Zuiderzeelijn and the HSL Oost were axed because of the problems with the HSL Zuid and the Betuweroute, all the political parties where scared to start another big project.


The Betuweroute is exceeding its target. Almost 600 trains/week are using it nowadays, to the point the line to Emmerich (Germany) is almost saturated and can't handle many more trains.


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## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> The Betuweroute is exceeding its target. Almost 600 trains/week are using it nowadays, to the point the line to Emmerich (Germany) is almost saturated and can't handle many more trains.


The connection in Germany has been the weak point from the start. Against European agreements, they still haven't upgraded their side of the line.


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## Momo1435

Suburbanist said:


> The Betuweroute is exceeding its target. Almost 600 trains/week are using it nowadays, to the point the line to Emmerich (Germany) is almost saturated and can't handle many more trains.


Well, you tell the public and the politicians, for them the "betuweroute" is still synonym for "too expensive".


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## Coccodrillo

Silly_Walks said:


> The connection in Germany has been the weak point from the start. Against European agreements, they still haven't upgraded their side of the line.


It's the same on the Swiss border, and probably also on the Austrian one.


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## Anspen

Silly_Walks said:


> The connection in Germany has been the weak point from the start. Against European agreements, they still haven't upgraded their side of the line.


From what I understand this is partially due to the slowness of the Dutch governments requesting/negotiating the expansion (it really should have been part of the orginal betuweroute build). On the other hand, the German railway organisation has a relatively small and set amount for rail expansion. To little really, especially with several expensive high speed lines in the planning/building stages (some viaduct parts of the the Nürnberg-Berlin line have already been build and are not likely to see high speed operation for a decade for example).


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## Suburbanist

Anspen said:


> From what I understand this is partially due to the slowness of the Dutch governments requesting/negotiating the expansion (it really should have been part of the orginal betuweroute build).


The line construction started with agreements in place. It currently ends here, 2km before the Dutch-German border. The political issue behind it is that the line is that DB Schenkler hasn't lived up to its original plans of some mega-hubs to concentrate and funnel traffic there. Earlier plans called for even an intermodal (rail-road-water) major terminal not far from Arnhem.


----------



## AlexNL

Momo1435 said:


> The VIRM and the SLT sets are all prepared for 25 kV, all older trains aren´t.


I've been told by someone close to NS that the ICMm ('Koploper') trains have been prepared for 25 kV as well with their recent renovation. If that is true, then the only intercities that aren't prepared for 25 kV are the ones with ICRm and 1700 locomotives. But those trains won't last another 10 years anyway. It's yet unknown what will happen to DD-AR when it becomes DDZ. Then it leaves the non-IC trains: the SGMm will probably be retired along with the ICRm, so it just leaves SLT as Mat '64 is already exiting the NS fleet.

Other trains are the Spurt and Velios, which are GTWs, so the powerpack can be easily replaced for a 25 kV supporting one. And then there's the Protos on the Valleilijn, of which I'm not sure how it's built.


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## K_

AlexNL said:


> I've been told by someone close to NS that the ICMm ('Koploper') trains have been prepared for 25 kV as well with their recent renovation. If that is true, then the only intercities that aren't prepared for 25 kV are the ones with ICRm and 1700 locomotives. But those trains won't last another 10 years anyway. It's yet unknown what will happen to DD-AR when it becomes DDZ. Then it leaves the non-IC trains: the SGMm will probably be retired along with the ICRm, so it just leaves SLT as Mat '64 is already exiting the NS fleet.
> 
> Other trains are the Spurt and Velios, which are GTWs, so the powerpack can be easily replaced for a 25 kV supporting one. And then there's the Protos on the Valleilijn, of which I'm not sure how it's built.


converting to 25Kv will be done gradually, just as converting to ETCS will be done gradually too.
It will mean that once some lines have been converted the older stock will no longer be able to run on it, but since we are talking about a project that will take decades that is not a problem. Plenty of other lines where these trains can run for the remainder of their life. And even after all the stock has been replaced with multi current versions I doubt the whole network will be converted to 25Kv anyway. It makes sense to just reelectrify those lines where you need the extra power.


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## AlexNL

K_ said:


> (...) I doubt the whole network will be converted to 25Kv anyway. It makes sense to just reelectrify those lines where you need the extra power.


This may seem true on the short term, as it saves money. However, it costs more money on the longer term, because...

- Two seperate energy networks need to be maintained (1,5 kV DC and 25 kV AC)
- Train operators need to keep either their rolling stock seperated, or buy bicurrent rolling stock. This is a big investment as well
- The Betuweroute and HSL-Zuid have shown that the 25 kV AC has negative implications on adjacent tracks, more specifically EMC-related problems with the safety systems (ATB).

Since ATB can't operate under alternating current, the safety system has to be replaced as well. Because of EU regulations, only ERTMS (ETCS) is an option, which is planned anyway. Furthermore, ATB is starting to show its age and the call for a higher density on the network, along with higher maximum speeds, is getting louder.

In my opinion, the best thing to do is go for nationwide 25 kV with ERTMS Level 2. It's the future, anyway. Countries around us are doing research or even full-scale implementations. Denmark is taking the lead, they want to be on nationwide ERTMS Level 2 within 10 years from now.


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## Suburbanist

10 years? OMG, that is a lot of time.

Netherlands shoud embark in a conversion program during 5 years, raising trackage fees to pay for part of it and having ProRail taking debt to finance the rest.


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## AlexNL

I think 10 years is a reasonable amount of time for the amount of work that has to be done in Denmark. They're dealing with 3.200 km of track that needs work (about half the amount of track in the Netherlands) and they're going to replace systems that sometimes even date back until pre-World War 1.

The Danish programme has started in 2009 and planned completion is in 2021. The total cost of the programme will be € 3,2 billion. This includes track, control centers and vehicle retrofitting. You can find out more in this brochure.



> Netherlands shoud embark in a conversion program during 5 years, raising trackage fees to pay for part of it and having ProRail taking debt to finance the rest.


I agree with you that it's time for action as the current equipment is aging, and ERTMS has matured enough for it to be usable. However, 5 years is too short of a timeframe when offset against the amount of track ProRail maintains: 6500 km. By taking a look at the Danish example, I think finishing by 2025/2030 is a more reasonable timeframe.


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## Coccodrillo

Why? There is no need to convert electrification (and partially signalling) system quickly.


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## Silly_Walks

Coccodrillo said:


> Why? There is no need to convert electrification (and partially signalling) system quickly.


There actually _is_ a need to convert the signalling system. A lot of lines in The Netherlands are too crowded according to the current signalling system, and they would be less so under ERTMS.


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Why? There is no need to convert electrification (and partially signalling) system quickly.


Dordrecht-Eindhoven, Eindhoven-Utrecht, and Hilversum-Arnhem line are examples of lines that already suffer service degradation due to antiquate signaling. And also speed degradation: trains can't go past 140km/h, though there would be travel time gains if they could (the track bed and alignment is already fit for that).


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## woutero

Last weekend the 2012 train schedule started operation. Biggest changes are in the Randstad, where the Fyra trains, running on the High Speed Line, have become an integrated part of the operation.

NS took out the regular intercity services between Amsterdam and Rotterdam via Schiphol and replaced them with intercity services via Haarlem. 
This does mean that travelers between Rotterdam and Schiphol/Amsterdam now have a strong stimulus to take the Fyra High Speed Trains.
A welcome new connection is the one between Lelystad-Almere-Amsterdam South-Schiphol-Leiden-The Hague.


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## Suburbanist

It is been reported that Eurostar is now selling round-trip ticket London-Amsterdam-London with a combination of Eurostar to Bruxelles Midi + Thalys via HSL to Amsterdam for only £ 79. Apparently, it is a new discounted fare, not only a temporary sales action.

If so, they will really put a challenge to low-cost airlines in the route (the crappy Benelux trains were detrimental to such competition before, but now the Bruxelles-Ams. part is also offered in modern Thalys trains).


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## mappero

FYRA on HSL with locs and speed @ 160 km/h?


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> It is been reported that Eurostar is not selling round-trip ticket London-Amsterdam-London with a combination of Eurostar to Bruxelles Midi + Thalys via HSL to Amsterdam for only £ 79. Apparently, it is a new discounted fare, not only a temporary sales action.


Correct, Eurostar has teamed up with Thalys. You can book an integrated Eurostar+Thalys ticket right from Eurostar's website.

I think this is a smart competitive move, and that we will be seeing more deals like this in the future.


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> Correct, Eurostar has teamed up with Thalys. You can book an integrated Eurostar+Thalys ticket right from Eurostar's website.
> 
> I think this is a smart competitive move, and that we will be seeing more deals like this in the future.


It is. You could previously buy a "any Dutch station" + Eurostar ticket, but that is not really attractive because it means no reserved seats from/to Bruxelles to/from Netherlands. Now, for a price cheaper than that, you can travel in good high speed trains all the way.


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## woutero

That's good news! I just looked into tickets, and the cheap fares are easy to book (so not just some price you can never get). 

Travel time however is still an issue. Mainly due to the 45 min layover in Brussels. If there would be a direct train, that would become pretty competitive.
Now:
A'dam Central - London Paddington: 4h40
Schiphol - London: 4h24
Rotterdam - London: 3h59


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## Suburbanist

woutero said:


> Travel time however is still an issue. Mainly due to the 45 min layover in Brussels. If there would be a direct train, that would become pretty competitive.


They need that layover to allow the 30-min mandatory advance check-in! If trains were direct, there would still be a similar 30-min advance check-in mandate in Amsterdam Centraal.


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## mappero

^^ Because of bloody UK staying outside of Schengen Area ...
Fog, weather condition is this part of Europe is good enough for Thalys/Eurostar to win competition vs airlines


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> They need that layover to allow the 30-min mandatory advance check-in! If trains were direct, there would still be a similar 30-min advance check-in mandate in Amsterdam Centraal.


And if they were to get rid of the check in they could give everyone a 30min faster trip without having to invest any money. Pity Eurostar isn't run by greedy capitalists...

Anyway, the previous "any Dutch station" eurostar ticket had the advantage of allowing you to take the Benelux train, which offers more legroom than Thalys does.


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## AlexNL

Look at it in a different way: by having people take Thalys first, they'll be used to the legroom by the time they get to the Eurostar.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> And if they were to get rid of the check in they could give everyone a 30min faster trip without having to invest any money. Pity Eurostar isn't run by greedy capitalists...


It is not a matter of Eurostar, but an issue to be dealt by and with UK Home Office.



> Anyway, the previous "any Dutch station" eurostar ticket had the advantage of allowing you to take the Benelux train, which offers more legroom than Thalys does.


More legroom? I doubt it, for similar arranged seats.

Also, Thalys provide a 1h15 FASTER ride between Bruxelles and Amsterdam to 1h31 travel time. THAT is an improvement. I'm sure, though, K_ will complain about some missed connection to Staroven or Arles on Sunday mornings.


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## Momo1435

^^ Oh please, I'm not going to explain to you that even with similar arranged seats there can be differences in legroom based on the distance between the seats. And from 1st hand experience on both trains I can say, affirming K__ claim that the Benelux train has more legroom then the Thalys. 

Claims like this is the reason why nobody takes you serious anymore, even when you have a point.


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## Suburbanist

Momo1435 said:


> ^^ Oh please, I'm not going to explain to you that even with similar arranged seats there can be differences in legroom based on the distance between the seats.


That is quite obvious, it is just that I don't think Thalys seat pitches (for similarly arranged seats) are shorter than those of Benelux cars. Does anyone have such tech specs for both trains? Then, the doubt can be easily solved.


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## AlexNL

Uhm, buy a ticket for a Thalys train to Antwerp, and go back with the Benelux, and see for yourself?


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## Silly_Walks

AlexNL said:


> Uhm, buy a ticket for a Thalys train to Antwerp, and go back with the Benelux, and see for yourself?


You want him to leave his basement? :bash:


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> Uhm, buy a ticket for a Thalys train to Antwerp, and go back with the Benelux, and see for yourself?


I believe more in technical specs than personal empirical perceptions.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> I believe more in technical specs than personal empirical perceptions.


Then take a ruler with you? I highly doubt that information regarding the distance between seats can be found online.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> That is quite obvious, it is just that I don't think Thalys seat pitches (for similarly arranged seats) are shorter than those of Benelux cars. Does anyone have such tech specs for both trains? Then, the doubt can be easily solved.


I'l get my tape measure out the next time. 
However, I do know that legroom in first class on the Thalys, before the last renovation, was similar to that in second class in ICR cars (as used on the Benelux...) The big nuisance in many TGV sets is the fold a way foot rest, that even when it does stay up still eats up leg space. I would basically need to take a notch out of my shins if I wanted to be able to stretch my legs. No, the ICE seats are far better.


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## woutero

Is the legroom issue really that important? I think not.

I have been on both trains, and did not notice that there was a difference. They were adequate in both cases. Even if there was a difference, I would rather have an few cm less legroom than 1h longer on a train anyway. And if you want to talk about leg room, look at the real competition: the airplane. That's where legroom is actually an issue.


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## Suburbanist

woutero said:


> Is the legroom issue really that important? I think not.
> 
> I have been on both trains, and did not notice that there was a difference. They were adequate in both cases. Even if there was a difference, I would rather have an few cm less legroom than 1h longer on a train anyway. And if you want to talk about leg room, look at the real competition: the airplane. That's where legroom is actually an issue.


Agreed.

I think this is like a minor issue, like people whining about "bad" Thalys design because it has some seats without a direct unimpeded window view.


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## Ale Sasso

Yes... I think the same.


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## Go Ahead Eagles

Schiphol Station


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## CitoyenNéerlandais

Thans for posting 
Schiphol station is one of my favorite stations.
It has a special atmosphere, more different than other stations.


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## Wilhem275

A question about long distance trains ending in Schiphol (as the EC from Berlin): are they recovered inside the station or at Hoofddorp facility?


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## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> A question about long distance trains ending in Schiphol (as the EC from Berlin): are they recovered inside the station or at Hoofddorp facility?


All trains that terminate at Schiphol Airport railway station continue to the Hoofddorp yard. Doing the cleaning and recovery at Schiphol would keep the platform occupied for too long, Schiphol desperately needs the capacity.


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## Suburbanist

^^ They actually need some extra platforms there, especially with the prospect of future Amsterdam-London services that could start in Amsterdam Zuid and call in Schiphol as well (needing sealed platforms).


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## Momo1435

An extra platform would be welcome, but it will certainly not happen in the next 5 years. Mostly because it will be extremely difficult to build a new platform underneath Schiphol Plaza without causing too much disruption. Since there aren't any plans for it now you can expect it to take over 10 years from a decision to the completion of an extra platform. 

In the last few days Eurostar repeated their wish to start a service to Amsterdam within 5 years, it doesn't look like they are going to wait for an extra platform to start the service. Apparently it's not that important, or maybe they will just skip Schiphol and focus on passengers from London to Amsterdam and vice versa and not on connecting airline passengers.


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## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ They actually need some extra platforms there, especially with the prospect of future Amsterdam-London services that could start in Amsterdam Zuid and call in Schiphol as well (needing sealed platforms).



Yeah, even without a Amsterdam-London service Schiphol needs extra platforms.


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## AlexNL

Extra platforms at Schiphol would be very welcome, but I don't see that happening in the next 5 to 10 years. I wouldn't really worry about the ICE and Eurostar to/from London: DB already confirmed that ICE will not be calling at Schiphol Airport (only Amsterdam and Rotterdam). Eurostar is also unlikely to stop there.

There's not really much demand for a service from Schiphol to London: if you're already at Schiphol, a plane gets you there faster. Even if you go last minute. Passengers that wish to travel by train are coming from other places anyway (since nobody lives at Schiphol) and coming from Utrecht / Almere there are direct trains to Amsterdam Centraal.


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## Suburbanist

In any case, I read about some plans to run Den Haag Centraal - Schiphol - Lelystad - Zwolle trains via the new Hanzelijn when it opens later this year. How would they accommodate these extra trains?

Maybe they could build a second Schiphol train station only for high-speed and international trains, not far from the current one and connected to Schiphol Plaza with a moving walkway.


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## AlexNL

Schiphol Airport still has some platform capacity left to deal with the proposed changes in the timetable. Some trains will also change their terminus (such as the intercity to Berlin, which will go to Amsterdam Central starting december 2012). This page (in Dutch) outlines all the proposed changes.

Furthermore, the Dutch government is investing in the area. The SAAL-project (Schiphol - Amsterdam - Almere - Lelystad) aims to provide more capacity along the route by investing until 2020 - plans go even further than that. More information at Rijksoverheid, in Dutch.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Interesting. They are getting rid of many trains that now are used in couple/uncouple schemes in Sittard and Zwolle, transforming these pairs in single routes.


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## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> In any case, I read about some plans to run Den Haag Centraal - Schiphol - Lelystad - Zwolle trains via the new Hanzelijn when it opens later this year. How would they accommodate these extra trains?


Those trains are already in service, except right now they terminate in Lelystad.



> Maybe they could build a second Schiphol train station only for high-speed and international trains, not far from the current one.


That already exists. It's called Amsterdam Zuid.


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## mappero

AlexNL said:


> Extra platforms at Schiphol would be very welcome, but I don't see that happening in the next 5 to 10 years. I wouldn't really worry about the ICE and Eurostar to/from London: DB already confirmed that ICE will not be calling at Schiphol Airport (only Amsterdam and Rotterdam). Eurostar is also unlikely to stop there.
> 
> There's not really much demand for a service from Schiphol to London: if you're already at Schiphol, a plane gets you there faster. Even if you go last minute. Passengers that wish to travel by train are coming from other places anyway (since nobody lives at Schiphol) and coming from Utrecht / Almere there are direct trains to Amsterdam Centraal.


Will ICE trains go through The Netherlands to London? When will occur? Any precise date for introduction this service?


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## Momo1435

^^ The DB wants to start the London - Amsterdam/Frankfurt service in December 2015.

The train will run combined between London and Brussels where it will be split into a train to Amsterdam and a train to Cologne-Frankfurt. 
http://www.bahn.com/i/view/GBR/en/about/overview/ice-in-london.shtml




Suburbanist said:


> Maybe they could build a second Schiphol train station only for high-speed and international trains, not far from the current one and connected to Schiphol Plaza with a moving walkway.


You know what, this is actually not a bad idea. There's room here for 2 extra tracks with platforms on the outside of the tunnel. Since the airport wants to add another terminal and piers this location will be closer to the terminals then it currently is. An automatic people mover can connect this station to Schiphol Plaza, which can also be used by the people working in the offices on Schiphol to give them better access to the current train station.


----------



## AlexNL

Momo1435 said:


> ^^ The DB wants to start the London - Amsterdam/Frankfurt service in December 2015.


And Eurostar will be coming to Amsterdam in 2014, with their brand new Velaro e320, which is 400 meters long.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ 2014 is soon.

Do they have any plans about how to deal with the need of the enclosed platforms for customs/immigration control in Amsterdam?


----------



## AlexNL

There haven't been any public announcements about that, yet. But I see several possibilities:

1) They temporarily close off a platform in Amsterdam and Rotterdam when a Eurostar train is close to departure (they do this at the railway stations in the Alpes region, when Eurostar goes there during winter)
2) They perform customs checking on board the train, kicking people who aren't supposed to be on board out in Rotterdam or Brussels
3) They move the security theatre to St. Pancras International and other British stations where Eurostar will call

I think the decision that Eurostar will make, will also be taken by Deutsche Bahn once they start operating ICE trains to Londen in 2015/2016.


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> There haven't been any public announcements about that, yet. But I see several possibilities:
> 
> 1) They temporarily close off a platform in Amsterdam and Rotterdam when a Eurostar train is close to departure (they do this at the railway stations in the Alpes region, when Eurostar goes there during winter)
> 2) They perform customs checking on board the train, kicking people who aren't supposed to be on board out in Rotterdam or Brussels
> 3) They move the security theatre to St. Pancras International and other British stations where Eurostar will call
> 
> I think the decision that Eurostar will make, will also be taken by Deutsche Bahn once they start operating ICE trains to Londen in 2015/2016.


Lets hope it's 
4) they get rid of the security theatre.

1) is not an option. In Bourg st. Maurice it may be possible to reserve a platform for an hour but this is not possible in the Netherlands.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ UK is not part of Schengen, thus this is not a decision left up to Eurostar, but to the British Border Force.

Modern passport control in the scope of Frontex require facilities that are not available in a train, such as x-ray, integrated databases etc.

They could transform the outer Amsterdam Centraal platform into an "international train only", with x-rays, controlled access (no passengers without tickets) and, when Eurostar is departing, passport/immigration control.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Modern passport control in the scope of Frontex require facilities that are not available in a train, such as x-ray, integrated databases etc.


Border guards checking trains entering the Schengen area from the outside use mobile terminals. There is no reason why they can't be used on the Schengen - UK border. And where do you get the idea that immigration control requires x-ray machines?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ To verify against drugs and other smuggled products or firearms.


----------



## AlexNL

At Amsterdam Centraal, platform 15 is already outside of the OV-chipkaart tourniquet zone. It looks like platform 15 will thus be used for international trains. Perhaps something can be done there, by sealing off platform 15a.

Unlike Brussels-South and Paris Nord, there won't be as much trains to London per day. I also think average ridership will be lower as taking the plane from Amsterdam will be as fast as taking the train - if you include the theatre.


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ To verify against drugs and other smuggled products or firearms.


That's not really an issue with the UK-EU border though. the UK is mostly concerned about illegal immigrants.

Every time I drive my car onto a ferry to the UK, the British border control agents (who, for some reason, are stationed on the continent) ask me to open my booth so they can check for illegal immigrants. They never even attempt to search the vehicle for drugs, despite the fact that I'm a 28 year old man traveling by myself with my own car and as such would be more than eligible for a good checking with dogs and mirrors and what have you.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ To verify against drugs and other smuggled products or firearms.


That's the job of customs, not immigration, and you don't have to pass through customs when going from the continent to the UK.


----------



## Bartje

*New trains for Vechtdallijnen (Vecht Valley Lines)*

Roll-out of first GTW for Vechtdallijnen (NL)
Arriva and Stadler Rail are today celebrating the joint roll-out of the first electric articulated multiple-unit train (EMU-GTW) in the Dutch provinces of Overijssel and Drenthe. In mid-2010, Arriva Netherlands placed an order with Stadler for 14 EMU-GTWs for the Vechtdallijnen concession. These vehicles have been developed in many areas and, as such, are improved versions of the Arriva GTW trains that are already successfully in service.

Arriva is one of the largest public transport service providers in Europe. Their buses and trains carry more than 1.5 billion passengers in 12 countries every year. The company was taken over by Deutsche Bahn in August 2010. In June 2010, Arriva Netherlands ordered a total of 38 GTW articulated multiple-unit trains from Stadler, of which 24 were for the province of Gelderland and the remaining 14 for the provinces of Overijssel and Drenthe. This brings the total number of GTW trains ordered by Arriva for use in various parts of the Netherlands since 2005 to 99.

Christian König, Sales Director Switzerland and Netherlands of Stadler Rail Group, is pleased about the development: “We are proud to bring Stadler state-of-the-art low-floored vehicles into service in two other provinces in the Netherlands. Once again, Stadler was able to process the order quickly. This was only possible thanks to the real commitment and enthusiasm of all those involved. I am very grateful to all of them.”

Anne Hettinga, Managing Director Arriva Netherlands: “It is a milestone in the implementation when the first trains coming out of the factory. With the Roll Out we let our clients see that we are on schedule with the implementation. In additition, our clients can see with their own eyes that we are on schedule and can judge that the trains to all the requirements and extra offers we have done. “

The vehicles are essentially based on the various EMU-GTW trains delivered to Arriva since 2005. The trains are air-conditioned and 75% low-floored. Legroom is very generous in all compartments. Up to four trains can run at the same time in multiple-unit operation. The vehicles are made of lightweight aluminium. The vehicles have public WLAN, five TFT monitors in each carriage a working area and a silence area. The trains are also designed in accordance with the TSI standard for disabled access.


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## Suburbanist

*Commuters to be 'paid' to stay off trains during rush hour*

So they want to pay up to €7/day for those not commuting during rush hour...

A national network transport pass costs € 390/month by the way...



> Train season ticket holders are to be offered up to €500 to avoid travelling in rush hour in an effort to reduce overcrowding, the Telegraaf reports on Tuesday.
> 
> Four-month trials of the rebate scheme will run in five areas: Arnhem-Nijmegen, Roermond- Maastricht, greater Amsterdam, Overijssel and Gelderland, the paper says, quoting trade publication OV magazine.
> 
> People with an annual season ticket will ‘earn’ €3 every time they avoid morning or evening rush hour and €7 if they stay off the train in busy periods all day.
> 
> The trials, which will cost €7m and involve 35,000 season ticket holders, are being run by the NS and regional train firms Syntus and Veolia. It will start in September.


Source translated here


----------



## Suburbanist

NS released a brief stating they want to phase out paper tickets completely be the end of 2013. As part of that plan, NS will introduce a one-trip-only simpler RFID card to be sold at station ticket machines for the occasional users.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> NS released a brief stating they want to phase out paper tickets completely be the end of 2013. As part of that plan, NS will introduce a one-trip-only simpler RFID card to be sold at station ticket machines for the occasional users.


Have they figured out what they intend to do with people buying tickets abroad? And how will I be able to buy a ticket over the internet?


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Have they figured out what they intend to do with people buying tickets abroad? And how will I be able to buy a ticket over the internet?


Couple months ago they told of having a pair or manned gates in stations that will be fully gated (such as Rotterdam, Amsterdam Centraal and Utrecht) and have international traffic.

As for departing passengers, I think they could easily devise a system where you enter a code in a ticket machine and it immediately releases your disposable one-ticket RFID card.

The next short-term steps for NS, as it said, are to put some special rail passes in the RFID card. The most used passes are already integrated with the card though since 2011.


----------



## Attus

^^ The Netherlands is a country really small by area and has several short distance international traffic, e.g. Euregiobahn Aachen - Heerlen once an hour. How can such a system handle that kind of travels?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Couple months ago they told of having a pair or manned gates in stations that will be fully gated (such as Rotterdam, Amsterdam Centraal and Utrecht) and have international traffic.


In principle all stations have international traffic. And than there are those that buy tickets for travel within the Netherlands from railways and travel agents outside of the Netherlands.
For example: Someone going to from Switzerland to Den Helder might well buy a ticket Schiphol - Den Helder at ticket office of Zürich Airport...

NS can stop selling paper tickets for domestic travel, but they can't stop accepting them. Not without a COTIF renegotiation...


----------



## Suburbanist

Attus said:


> ^^ The Netherlands is a country really small by area and has several short distance international traffic, e.g. Euregiobahn Aachen - Heerlen once an hour. How can such a system handle that kind of travels?


First I don't know if Heerlen will be gated.

Second, they plan of fitting the train sets used on these regional routes with OV Chipkaart machines.


----------



## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> NS released a brief stating they want to phase out paper tickets completely be the end of 2013. As part of that plan, NS will introduce a one-trip-only simpler RFID card to be sold at station ticket machines for the occasional users.


One trip RFID cards have been used in Moscow for quite a while now. Seems a bit of a waste but I guess electronics are that cheap now. I can see issues, as NL is not an island. Still a good solution that makes it easier for occasional users and tourists.


----------



## Attus

Suburbanist said:


> First I don't know if Heerlen will be gated.
> 
> Second, they plan of fitting the train sets used on these regional routes with OV Chipkaart machines.


Sorry, I have used trains in the Netherlands only a very few times: is there not any ticket check on the train board? Or do they mean that board check is made by living people so that it can't make any trouble to check paper tickets there?


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## Suburbanist

^^ They will keep checking the electronic cards, which need to be validated on totems.

Some stations will be gated (no access to platform without validated card), others will not.


----------



## AlexNL

New Sprinter EMUs are on their way. NS has issued an "Invitation to tender" for new single deck sprinter EMUs. Delivery should commence from october 2016.

Railway Gazette


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Interesting... too bad Dutch passengers will have to put up with those old crap vehicles until they are replaced by those being ordered.

I'm referring to these:


plan V NS Oisterwijk 15-1-11 by Hans Klomp, on Flickr


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## Momo1435

^^ I rather have those then the modernized original sprinters or the DDAR local double deckers. But the last time I was on a mat '64 should already be like summer last year. But I don't live in the South where they are still used on most of the local services.


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## AlexNL

The requirements for the new trains:


> 1. Single deck EMU’s for commuter services based upon an existing concept with proven technology. The EMU’s must comply with the usual standards including but not limited to TSI, UIC, NEN, DIN etc., Dutch and European legislation regulations and Dutch authorization regulations.
> 2. To create flexibility in the capacity per train, it will be considered to order at least two lengths of EMU’s, to be determined by the number of coaches per EMU. At least the following lengths are considered, one length of EMU with a seat capacity of approximately 150 seats, and the other length of EMU will have a seat capacity of approximately between 200 – 250 seats.
> 3. Other characteristics:
> a) Service speed of 160 km/h;
> b) Mutual coupling between EMU’s of this tender;
> c) High acceleration;
> d) High deceleration;
> e) Short stopping times including quick boarding and alighting times;
> f) Standard 1 500 V DC;
> g) Authorized for the Dutch railway network;
> h) Level entrance at platform height;
> i) An as much as possible leveled floor throughout the EMU;
> j) Modern in appearance;
> k) Transparent and "open" interior; The gangway width between two coaches shall be as wide as possible, but with a minimum of approximately 2 m;
> l) Containing a toilet;
> m) Low life cycle costs;
> n) High reliability;
> o) High availability;
> p) Prepared for ERTMS;
> q) Fit for use in Dutch weather conditions.


Entire document


----------



## Silly_Walks

Why not ERTMS standard?

Why not 25kV capable from the start? 


These trains are supposed to last at least 30 years...


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## AlexNL

Silly_Walks said:


> Why not ERTMS standard? Why not 25kV capable from the start?


----------



## Silly_Walks

AlexNL said:


>


For newly built units, the price difference should be negligable, especially compared to modifications after they have been made already.


----------



## K_

Silly_Walks said:


> For newly built units, the price difference should be negligable, especially compared to modifications after they have been made already.


One can expect the price for ERMTS equipment to go down in the future, and as long as you don't install it you don't have to maintain it either...


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## Momo1435

There's also no specific requirement to have ATB, the trains just have to comply with the Dutch regulations. Since the current cabinet wants to install ERTMS in the near future, there's a chance that ERTMS will become part of the regulations before 2016. Therefore I think it's only mentioned to be completely certain that it can be installed. And even if they wouldn't have done it I doubt that any of the manufactures would offer a train that isn't ERTMS ready since all of their standard trains are already prepared to have it installed.

Modifications have also become very cheap with the modular designs of modern trains. And since a complete change to 25 kV is still very far of, and if it will happen it will take place in stages. And there's no need for all trains to have both 1,5 kV and 25 kV capability during such a transition.


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## Maarten Otto

On Friday evening July 6th 2012, High Speed Alliance (NS Hispeed) received formal approval from the Dutch Inspection of Living environment and Transport to start revenue earning services with AnsaldoBreda build High speed train class 4800 (V250). Immediately the TOC applied for introducing an hourly service between Amsterdam and Rotterdam using the V250 from 10 September 2012. This will supplement the existing two trains per hour service linking Amsterdam to Breda, but replace the once hourly xx:13 departure via the classic route (not calling at Leiden Central) from Amsterdam to Rotterdam, better known as "the plaster train". 

NSHispeed has applied for a 160 km/h path on the HSL-Zuid for its third Fyra train but is expected to run at 250 km/h to let passengers experience the new era in Dutch rail travel. As a result the train will arrive 8 minutes early in Rotterdam than advertised. 

Until 10 September the TOC will train it's staff, but now the train is certified to carry passengers it is possible to do staff exams during revenue earning services from Amsterdam to Breda.

UPDATE: (13-07-20112) The TOC will put the V250 in service with "surprise" appearances in the current Fyra service to Breda from time to time. It is expected the first V250 will carry passengers later this month. 


4804 Nieuw Vennep by Maarten Otto, on Flickr


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## 3737

Today was the first ride with passengers the V250 with passengers.
From the dutch thread.



Busfotodotnl said:


> Het was erg leuk om het toch nog te kunnen meemaken, ook al was het maar het kleine stukje van Schiphol naar Amsterdam Centraal.
> 
> Hieronder alvast een drietal filmpjes, de rest volgt later (na het eten):


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## Suburbanist

*New stations opening Dec. 9, 2012*

There is a relatively intense pace of construction of new stations in the Netherlands.These are the stations opening next December.

1. Almere Poort
2. Groningen Europapark
3. Halfweg-Zwanenburg
4. Hengelo Gezondheidspark
5. Utrecht Leidsche Rijn
6. Hoevelaken
7. Maastricht Noord
8. Dronten
9. Kampen Zuid.

Dronten and Kampen Zuid are on the new Hanzelijn which will start commercial service next December (it connects Zwolle and Lelystad, is fit with ECTS and can handle traffic up to 230km/h).

Roughly 30% of the national train schedules will be altered substantially (e.g., beyond minor timing adjustments) according to NS.


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## Momo1435

The Hanzelijn was designed for a speed of 200 km/h not 230 km/h, the operating speed will be 140 km/h as all trains will use the old ATB that is installed next to the ETCS. There are no trains that can go faster then 160 km/h anyway. 

The line will be used by the IC trains from Leeuwarden and Groningen to Amsterdam and Schiphol Airport - (The Hague).


----------



## Coccodrillo

Is there a map with service patterns of IC trains, like it exists for Belgium?


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## Theijs

Coccodrillo said:


> Is there a map with service patterns of IC trains, like it exists for Belgium?


Yes, unofficial for the timetable 2012-2013 starting in December http://www.rover.nl/images/rover_spoorkaart_IC_2013_v2.pdf


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## Momo1435

^^ Before anyone asks, the numbers on that map are a proposal by the passengers organization Rover to give all the lines a number.

The dots next to the number corresponds to the number of train per hour on that route.


----------



## Godius




----------



## mramelet

Suburbanist said:


> There is a relatively intense pace of construction of new stations in the Netherlands.These are the stations opening next December.
> *5. Utrecht Leidsche Rijn*


Are you sure about that?
Cause I can't see any construction work while going under the A2 tunnel each day.
Was that not an early planned delivery date? I guess with the delay in the tunnel construction and all the future Leidsche Rijn centrum area, didn't they postpone the train station as well?


----------



## Suburbanist

Nigh train services will be reduced from DEc. 9th

Instead of all-night services during weekends on the Rotterdam-Dordrecht-Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven-Den Bosch-Utrecht semi-loop, there shall be only 2 hourly services until 2am.

Shuttle night service Den Bosch-Tilburg had been cancelled last year, and now the Utrecht-Gouda-Rotterdam shuttle will have just one night run.

The net cost of running the night trains on Brabant was estimated to be € 2,3 million /year. That cost will be reduced by 60% now with reduced service.


----------



## AlexNL

If you ask me, night trains are a great example of trains that can be operated by private sector parties such as Arriva. Those companies have already proven of being capable of offering more trains at lower costs...


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> If you ask me, night trains are a great example of trains that can be operated by private sector parties such as Arriva. Those companies have already proven of being capable of offering more trains at lower costs...


I don't know about the major service, but the Tilburg-Den Bosch shuttle carried less than 200 people per night (it only operated Thr-Fri and Fri-Sat nights) on average before it was cancelled. It operated 4 nightly frequencies, thus less than 50 people on average per trip. And more than half of its users were students travelling for free, according the to local newspaper here in Tilburg. It was essentially a party shuttle between both cities for bored students to have a night out at the other place.

Some colleagues are quite disgruntled at the nigh train cancellations because they used it often to reach Schiphol early in the morning for flights to their home countries on weekends, and now it is not possible to arrive at Schiphol on Saturdays before 8am or so. In any case, I asked two of them and their feedback was that those trains were semi-empty.

Apparently a major cost of these night trains is workforce. They close stations and have to have security personnel letting only those with tickets to enter the stations.


----------



## Suburbanist

*Summary of discount plans and passes*

In case someone is curious, these are the discount plans and passes available on Dutch heavy railways (it excludes trams, subways, local light rail and Randstad Rail)

40% discount off-peak* and weekends = € 50/year

20% discount peak + 40% discount off peak and weekends = € 240/year

free travel on weekends** + 40% off-peak weekday discount = € 480/year 2nd class, € 780/year 1st class

free travel on weekends and weekdays off-peak* = € 1140/year 2nd class, € 1980/year 1st class

free travel anytime = € 3540/year 2nd class, € 5940/year 1st class

free travel anytime + free travel on regular fare local public transportation = € 4191/year 2nd class, € 6698/year 1st class

* peak travel: Monday-Friday 6h30-9h, 16h-18h30 

** Friday 18h - Monday 4h

With these new fare plans (started this summer), passengers must check-in and check-out on the travel card readers whenever travelling, meaning it is no longer enough to just have a valid transportation pass stored in a card, but check in and out on each trip (sensible measure, as it greatly increases precise data collection about usage patterns etc)


----------



## AlexNL

The "free travel anytime" ("Altijd Vrij") passes are also available as a month pass and can be purchased at any NS ticket vending machine and on NS.nl.

In addition to these passes, you can also buy the "Fyra supplements" (a surcharge levied for travelling with the Fyra high speed train between Amsterdam and Breda - NOT BRUSSELS) as either a monthly or an annual subscription. "Fyra Altijd Toeslagvrij" (Fyra Always Without A Supplement) as a month pass costs € 71,70 a month 2nd class, € 93 first class. When purchased as a year pass, it costs € 480 second class, € 660 first class.

Interestingly enough, you can buy "Fyra Altijd Toeslagvrij" month pass on the NS TVM or when buying a new pass through ns.nl, but you can't buy it on www.nshispeed.nl. Please note: whilst NS Hispeed also offers a "Fyra Maandtraject" pass (which gives you unlimited travel on Amsterdam - Breda) some options (such as Amsterdam - Breda) are more expensive than combining "Altijd Vrij" with "Fyra Altijd Toeslagvrij"...


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> In case someone is curious, these are the discount plans and passes available on Dutch heavy railways (it excludes trams, subways, local light rail and Randstad Rail)
> 
> 40% discount off-peak* and weekends = € 50/year
> 
> 20% discount peak + 40% discount off peak and weekends = € 240/year
> 
> free travel on weekends** + 40% off-peak weekday discount = € 480/year 2nd class, € 780/year 1st class
> 
> free travel on weekends and weekdays off-peak* = € 1140/year 2nd class, € 1980/year 1st class
> 
> free travel anytime = € 3540/year 2nd class, € 5940/year 1st class
> 
> free travel anytime + free travel on regular fare local public transportation = € 4191/year 2nd class, € 6698/year 1st class
> 
> * peak travel: Monday-Friday 6h30-9h, 16h-18h30
> 
> ** Friday 18h - Monday 4h
> 
> With these new fare plans (started this summer), passengers must check-in and check-out on the travel card readers whenever travelling, meaning it is no longer enough to just have a valid transportation pass stored in a card, but check in and out on each trip (sensible measure, as it greatly increases precise data collection about usage patterns etc)


Some of those options sound like a very good deal (although depends how expensive are standard tickets, I guess), others are very expensive. For example, travel anywhere anytime costs even more than in Switzerland (and ours really does include everything), on the other hand 40% discount is given away pretty much for free. Basically good for old people, students and locals/longer term visitors wanting to see the country during weekends, but not so good for people who'd like to use trains to commute to work.


----------



## Suburbanist

*High-frequency rail project likely to be scrapped.*

Published today on De Telegraaf



> Er worden miljarden bespaard op een aantal treinprojecten. Dit geld hoeft dan niet te worden weggehaald bij asfaltprojecten. Dat melden bronnen aan het Binnenhof.
> 
> *Een van de spoorprojecten die hoogst waarschijnlijk sneuvelen, is het zogenaamde programma ’Hoogfrequent Spoor*’, zo zeggen ingewijden binnen de spoorsector en het ministerie van Infrastructuur. Dit programma heeft als doel om op de drukste trajecten elke tien minuten een intercity of sprinter te laten vertrekken. Voor het project was al 2,8 miljard euro gereserveerd.
> 
> *De besparingen worden gebruikt voor het nieuwe spoorbeveiligingssysteem Ertms, waarvan de aanleg volgens het regeerakkoord in 2016 moet beginnen.* Daarvoor is minstens een miljard nodig. Volgens bronnen komt het schrappen van het hoogfrequentspoor de NS niet slecht uit, omdat de spoorwegen dan miljoenen had moeten investeren in nieuwe treinen.


The "Hoogfrequent Spoor" aimed to increase train frequencies on several routes to 1 train every 10 minutes or less on busiest lines.

The project is likely going to be scrapped, ministry sources say. The money saved (€ 2,8 billion) will be partially used to finance some road projects, and partially used to speed up the implementation of ERTMS on Dutch network, stating 2016. 

What the article doesn't say is that ERTMS will also increase traffic capacity, up to a point, in the network. I'd like to hear what is ProRail position on this


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> For example, travel anywhere anytime costs even more than in Switzerland (and ours really does include everything),


The OV Abbonment (travel free anytime + local public transport) includes almost all public transportation services except trains with supplements, some express buses and some ferries. 

[/quote] Basically good for old people, students and locals/longer term visitors wanting to see the country during weekends, but not so good for people who'd like to use trains to commute to work.[/QUOTE]

There are other route-specific plans that combine train + public transportation. They are charged on a per-distance basis, but travelling is restricted on a specific route. It's too complicated to explain here how it works, but in a nutshell if you are travelling more than 60km one-way daily by train, it will be always cheaper to buy a free travel anytime pass.


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> What the article doesn't say is that ERTMS will also increase traffic capacity, up to a point, in the network. I'd like to hear what is ProRail position on this


ProRail already has done a study about this subject in 2010 (Search for the document 'Technische vergelijking tussen NS’54 ATB-EG en ERTMS Level 2').

Result: On the analysed route (Utrecht - Den Bosch) ERTMS L2 will reduce track occupancy to 75% per hour, down from 91% per hour for the current ATB-EG. This would allow for 2 to 3 extra trains per hour. Increasing speeds will reduce travel time, but not necesarily reduce track occupancy, because of the increased speed difference between passenger and freight trains. The results found were considered representative for the entire dutch rail network.


----------



## Suburbanist

Maybe they can 4-track Houten-Den Bosch and Breda-Tilburg in a smaller version of that version. 

Both are the most critical bottlenecks (other than jucntions requiring flyovers)


----------



## da_scotty

- Breda-Tilburg is on long term planning, nothing seriously.
- Houten-'s Hertogenbosch is not going to happen soon, simply to many bridges that need to be build, I have heard plans of doubling the tracks in between the bridges.

The 's Hertogenbosch junctions are in the progress of becoming free-flow, and the 's Hertogenbosch - Nijmegen/Utrecht Junction short section is becoming 4-track as well


----------



## Suburbanist

da_scotty said:


> - Breda-Tilburg is on long term planning, nothing seriously.


I live very close to that railway. They have 6 passenger trains per hour and a lot of freight traffic. There are usually parked freight trains waiting clearance for their paths on Tilburg yards.


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> There are usually parked freight trains waiting clearance for their paths on Tilburg yards.


Everytime you direct a freight train to a siding it influences your service at least 2 times (a train 'slowly' braking from 80 to 40 km/h and accelerating from standstill to 80). I therefore advocate that once a freight train is rolling to keep it rolling untill it is a it's destination, because that way it has the least influence on the other services.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I think those stops are programmed. Breda-Tilburg is just a sector from which, on both ends, 3 and 2 railways converge, respectively (though the HSL doesn't affect the sector for practical matters).


----------



## AlexNL

The route over Tilburg is used as an escape route for high speed trains, sometimes. If the route towards Rotterdam is blocked, Fyra-trains that are in Breda are sent back to Amsterdam over Tilburg and Utrecht.

Also, if the tunnels at Barendrecht or Rotterdam Blaak are blocked (i.e. because of a fire warning) Thalys trains are sometimes diverted over Tilburg as well. Those trains then leave the HSL at Breda.


----------



## Suburbanist

*OV-Chipkaart improved*

They improved the funcionalities of the OV-Chipkaart (the smartcard used to pay fares and load subscriptions in Netherlands).

Now, ticket machines, by default, ask you to put your card close to the read (the OV-Chipkaart works by radio frequency with proximity, not magnetic reading) before prompting you to buy travel products.

You can now load on your carda day discount in case you are traveling with a travel companion who was a plan that incldues additional discounts for travel companions. 

It is now possible to easily fill a claim for refund for dalays, online, for trips paid with the OV-Chipkaart. Much easier than before.


----------



## M-NL

There are plenty of countries around the world where public transport chip cards systems were implemented. So instead of using one of those systems and customising it for dutch use, it was a case of "Not invented here" and they reinvented the wheel (again!), with all the troubles asociated.


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## AlexNL

In my opinion, the NS Ticket Vending Machines are way too slow. It takes about 3 seconds to read products, and about 5 to write them. Compared to Transport for London's machines, which can read an Oster card instantly, this is very slow.

This also applies to the validators used by Veolia and Arriva: it takes several seconds to process a transaction, while the validators used by NS, GVB and RET process a card immediately.


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## K_

M-NL said:


> There are plenty of countries around the world where public transport chip cards systems were implemented. So instead of using one of those systems and customising it for dutch use, it was a case of "Not invented here" and they reinvented the wheel (again!), with all the troubles asociated.


Well, I doubt that systems used in Urban transport networks with simple tariff structures would be possible to implement as-is on the Dutch Network. The Netherlands are the first country in the world actually attempting to have a signle smart card system that can be used everywhere.
It's not so much "not invented here", but more "nobody has tried this before..."
(edit: And the technology used in "those other countries" was invented in the Netherlands...)

Switzerland is also working on a smart card system for public transit. They will have to "invent" one themselves too, as all the current systems cannot made to work in a Swiss context.


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## Suburbanist

The OV Chipkaart is now going to work fine. It should have had all these capabilities from its introduction in 2010.

I think passengers in Netherlands mostly got used to how it works. The only occasional source of misunderstandings is the fact you must check in/out when transferring between NS and non-NS heavy rail. 

I also read some people mistakenly transfer to Randstad Rail in Den Haag forgetting it is not part of the heavy rail system.

Other than that, the system is quite useful, it loads all subscriptions, it calculates the applicable fare with any loaded discounts plans etc.


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## K_

AlexNL said:


> In my opinion, the NS Ticket Vending Machines are way too slow. It takes about 3 seconds to read products, and about 5 to write them. Compared to Transport for London's machines, which can read an Oster card instantly, this is very slow.


Oyster and OV Chipcard use the same technology, which actually was developed by a Dutch company...


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## 33Hz

The Fyra mess continues...

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ssels-fyra-service-in-doubt.html#.ULO1teTTsud


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## AlexNL

Just to add a bit more fun to the bundle of joy that is called the V250:

Two V250 trains stranded on the HSL within the past 7 days. Both times, the train had to be evacuated, causing delays. This morning, the 7:25 Schiphol -> Rotterdam train failed at Hoofddorp. At 10:30 the evacuation was still ongoing. Around 12:30, the train was still on the HSL. Fyra and Thalys services were heavily disrupted.


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## Suburbanist

33Hz said:


> The Fyra mess continues...
> 
> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ssels-fyra-service-in-doubt.html#.ULO1teTTsud


Old news.

SNCB has agreed on commercial terms to operate the Breda shuttles.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> Old news.
> 
> SNCB has agreed on commercial terms to operate the Breda shuttles.


Yes, but what you fail to mention is that SNCB demands to be compensated for the losses they will be making on that connection (at least € 11,4 million euros each year, according to SNCB predictions). As the Belgian State is unwilling to fully pay that amount, a proposal has been submitted to the Dutch State asking them to pay for 50%.

I think it's unlikely that the Dutch State will accept: the HSL-South was awarded to HSA with the idea of making a profit out of it. Also, providing subsidy (which this basically is) might be illegal under Dutch or EU law.

Furthermore, the agreement proposed does NOT meet the requirements as laid out in the concession which was granted to HSA back in 2001. Back in 2005, the State agreed to alter the terms of the concession to the following:

- 32 daily trains Amsterdam - Breda and back
- 32 daily trains Amsterdam - Rotterdam and back
- 16 daily trains Amsterdam - Brussels and back
- 8 daily trains The Hague - Breda - Brussels and back
- At least 10 times Amsterdam - Paris and back, but HSA is obliged to lobby for 16 times a day

While the offer laid out by SNCB fulfills the requirements for Amsterdam - Brussels, it doesn't match The Hague - Brussels. If any of our PMs have any balls, they will object to the proposal laid out by SNCB - even if this means that we will lose the fast, non Thalys, connection to Brussels.


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## mappero

Any more info about this accident?
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/ns-withdraws-nid-sets-after-train-splits-in-service.html?channel=542#.ULP3PIbe-uo


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## Sunfuns

So basically you built a brand new high speed rail line for billions of euros which is now being vastly underused or am I missing something here? Who said only in the South or the East is money squandered? :lol:


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## AlexNL

The cause of the accident seems to be a split pin used to secure the screw coupling. This pin seemed to be of inferior quality. The pin has been replaced on Sunday, all NID trainsets have been in service again since Monday morning.



Sunfuns said:


> So basically you built a brand new high speed rail line for billions of euros which is now being vastly underused or am I missing something here? Who said only in the South or the East is money squandered? :lol:


Nope, you're right. Currently it's used by 2 to 4 trains per hour:
- Fyra Amsterdam - Breda, twice an hour (after 20:00: once an hour)
- Thalys to Paris
- Fyra V250 between Amsterdam and Rotterdam

In timetable 2013, the V250 is supposed to continue to Brussels. Initially 10 times a day... this will be expanded to 16 times a day when more rolling stock becomes available.


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## M-NL

K_ said:


> Well, I doubt that systems used in Urban transport networks with simple tariff structures would be possible to implement as-is on the Dutch Network.


The public transport system of the greater Tokyo area alone is arguably even more complex then the entire Netherlands as a whole. In this area 2 chip card systems are active. Both work and work fast. And in this same area you can also still buy paper tickets, which is an afterthought in the Netherlands, because they wanted to eleminate them.


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## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> The cause of the accident seems to be a split pin used to secure the screw coupling. This pin seemed to be of inferior quality. The pin has been replaced on Sunday, all NID trainsets have been in service again since Monday morning.


One thing I don't understand: Why did they replace them when converting from DDAR+mDDM to NID in the first place? If it is because of lifespan/wear don't the DDAR's run the same risk?


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## AlexNL

I am not sure why they did it, however, the issue is not a problem with DD-AR.


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## mrmoopt

K_ said:


> Oyster and OV Chipcard use the same technology, which actually was developed by a Dutch company...


Incorrect, the cards are sourced from the same company, NXP.
Revenue clearing houses, types of validators, are all different.


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## Moje Leto

Are they serving hash browns on the trains?

Greetz


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## Silly_Walks

Moje Leto said:


> Are they serving hash browns on the trains?
> 
> Greetz


Why would they serve these?








http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ReOGjaKjVfU/TTFsUsIsX4I/AAAAAAAAAF0/BX3J3RC9PwE/s1600/hashbrown.jpg


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## Godius

*kapsalon*


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## AlexNL

I think it's time to post some updates about the Dutch railway network:

*Hanzelijn (Lelystad - Zwolle)*
Construction and testing of the Hanzelijn is finished!

A few months ago, ICE-3M #4610 has performed some test runs on the new infrastructure, achieving a top speed of 200 km/h under ETCS Level 2. However, regular trains will only run at 140 km/h because those trains are not equipped with ETCS, they only carry the legacy ATB system.

On Thursday December 6th the Queen will officially open the Hanzelijn, riding from Lelystad to Zwolle. On Saturday the 8th there will be free rides between Lelystad, Zwolle, and all intermediate stations. Starting from timetable 2013 (effective December 9th) regular trains will start using the Hanzelijn.

*Ticketing*
NS is pushing ahead with the introduction of the OV-chipkaart, the new RFID-based smart card that intends to be "one single ticket for all public transport". 2.5 weeks ago, a couple of tickets and passes have been changed and are now only issued on the OV-chipkaart. For example, the "doggie day pass" is no longer available on paper.

NS is planning to require passengers to use their OV-chipkaart if they want to travel with a discount (for example, when using the Voordeelurenabonnement) starting Spring 2013. From then on, only full fare and international tickets will be sold on paper.

*Other companies*
_Arriva_
Arriva is getting bigger and bigger! On December 9th they will take over the following services:

- Zwolle - Emmen, currently operated by NS Reizigers
- Zutphen - Apeldoorn, currently operated by NS Regio
- Achterhoek (Arnhem - Winterswijk and Zutphen - Winterswijk) from Syntus,
- Betuwe area (Elst - Tiel) from Syntus

For all of these services Arriva has ordered new GTW DMU's and EMU's from Stadler which have been given the appropriate liveries and interior fittings.

_Hermes_
A newcomer from the Connexion-Transdev group: Hermes will start operating trains on the Arnhem - Doetinchem line, using the same rolling stock as Arriva: GTW. Arriva will run on the same line between Arnhem and Doetinchem.

*HSL-Zuid*
Several months ago the AnsaldoBreda built V250 trainsets finally got their admissions for carrying passengers on the HSL and convetional rails in both The Netherlands and Belgium. Up until now the V250 has been running between Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Sometimes the V250 is used to replace a broken Traxx+coaches combination.

However, things are going to change: the Beneluxtrein (Amsterdam - Brussels via The Hague and Roosendaal) will disappear after December 8th, from December 9th Fyra is intended to travel to Brussels using the HSL-Zuid and the V250 rolling stock. Initially, the service will be limited to 10 trains a day due to rolling stock shortages. NS Hispeed is planning to increase the frequency to 16 trains a day, but they are dependant upon AnsaldoBreda for that. 

Tickets for Fyra Brussels are not yet on sale, but what is known is that the ticket prices and conditions will be similar to Thalys. There has been a large public outcry over this as the Beneluxtrein is used by a heavily mixed audience. For instance, it is oftenly used by commuters that have passes for the Dutch and the Belgian networks. For Fyra Brussels, passes will not be available (initially), meaning that commuters might end up paying twice the amount of what they pay today. Also, the compulsary reservation means reduced flexibility.

At the time of writing this post, there is major uncertainty about the start of the Fyra Brussels service: political approval is required under the HSL-Zuid concession, and this has not been given yet. Without this approval, the train can not operate - there is a significant chance that this approval will not be given in time for the timetable change, next week.

Also, several consumer organisations have complained to the Dutch competitive authority about potential abuse of the monopoly position that NS and NS Hispeed enjoy regarding the introduction of Fyra to Brussels.

*In brief:*
- The High Frequency Rail Programme (Programma Hoogfrequent Spoor, PHS) has become uncertain as the Dutch government needs to cut budgets. PHS intended to upgrade main corridors to support 6 intercity and 6 local trains per hour during rush hour, but economic and sociological outlooks question the need for PHS.
- After the crash in Amsterdam, earlier this year, the Dutch government planned on installing ERTMS across the Netherlands. The ERTMS roll-out has been confirmed last week, and will commence in 2016. The budget assigned to PHS will probably be partially used for this.
- Starting from 2017 the regional rail service from Düsseldorf to Emmerich will continue to Arnhem, re-establishing a connection that was broken when ICE International was introduced (in 2000)
- With the introduction of Timetable 2013 (effective Dec. 9th) 5 new stations will open: Kampen Zuid, Dronten, Groningen Europapark, Almere Poort and Halfweg-Zwanenburg.
- Also in Timetable 2013: the intercity Amsterdam - Vlissingen will start to run twice an hour, between Roosendaal and Vlissingen this train wil call at all stations. The local train (Vlissingen - Roosendaal) will no longer operate, the intercity will be taking its place. Furthermore, this train will be re-routed over Schiphol, re-establishing the intercity from Rotterdam to Schiphol that was abolished with Timetable 2012.


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## Theijs

AlexNL said:


> HSL-Zuid
> The Beneluxtrein (Amsterdam - Brussels via The Hague and Roosendaal) will disappear after December 8th, from December 9th Fyra is intended to travel to Brussels using the HSL-Zuid and the V250 rolling stock.
> 
> Also, several consumer organisations have complained to the Dutch competitive authority about potential abuse of the monopoly position that NS and NS Hispeed enjoy regarding the introduction of Fyra to Brussels.


The same happened last year with the break of direct connections Rotterdam - Schiphol via The Hague: travellers were forced into the expensive Fyra or take a normal train but changing in The Hague or Leiden. Now this abuse has been corrected:


> - Also in Timetable 2013: the intercity Amsterdam - Vlissingen will ... be re-routed over Schiphol, re-establishing the intercity from Rotterdam to Schiphol that was abolished with Timetable 2012.





> - Starting from 2017 the regional rail service from Düsseldorf to Emmerich will continue to Arnhem, re-establishing a connection that was broken when ICE International was introduced (in 2000)


Let's hope it won't take 13 years before an affordable solutions is found for the connection Antwerpen - Roosendaal / Breda for commuters presently using the Benelux train.


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## Suburbanist

Some questions:

- why they don't extend the Zwolle-Roosendaal intercities to Vlissingen without intermediate stops except Bergen op Zoom, thus providing more service in Zeeland, the most neglected Dutch province when it comes to rail

- will they use only V250 for domestic Fyra services?

- will Fyra International carry domestic passengers in Netherlands (with seat reservation of course!)?


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> Some questions:
> 
> - why they don't extend the Zwolle-Roosendaal intercities to Vlissingen without intermediate stops except Bergen op Zoom, thus providing more service in Zeeland, the most neglected Dutch province when it comes to rail


The local service was loss-making and NS wanted to get rid of it, together with the closure of a few stations. The province of Zeeland negotiated with NS to prevent closure of the smaller stations. However, NS still wanted to get rid of the loss-making local service. So, it was opted that the intercity service was used to now serve all intermediate stations.

The passenger flows for Zeeland are more oriented towards Rotterdam and beyond, that's why the Amsterdam - Vlissingen service was chosen and not Zwolle - Roosendaal.


> - will they use only V250 for domestic Fyra services?


The V250 trains are intended for both domestic and international services. The V250 introduction is planned as follows:
- V250 on Amsterdam - Brussels (series 9200)
- V250 on Amsterdam - Rotterdam (series 1000)
- V250 on Amsterdam - Breda (series 900)
- V250 on Antwerp - Breda (series 1200 I believe)

It all depends on rolling stock availability: the few V250 trains that are available now will first go to the 9200. Once enough trains are available for working on the 9200, they will continue introducing V250 on other services.


> - will Fyra International carry domestic passengers in Netherlands (with seat reservation of course!)?


From December 9th, the 1000 series that is currently operating between Amsterdam and Rotterdam will cease to exist, as the rolling stock is required for the service to Brussels. To compensate for the loss of seats, domestic passengers will be carried on this train as well - without requiring a reservation.

This is a temporary situation due to rolling stock shortages: the end situation is that there will be 4 Fyra trains between Amsterdam and Rotterdam that won't need a reservation (900 + 1000) and 1 that has a compulsory reservation (9200).


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## Suburbanist

^^ What about services to/from Breda from DEc. 9th?


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## AlexNL

The Fyra services to and from Breda will continue to operate as they do currently, meaning: Traxx locomotives pulling ICRm Prio coaches. Do note that adjustments have been made to the timetable: trains will leave Breda 4 minutes later, will leave Amsterdam 2 minutes earlier.


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## Suburbanist

^^ So HSL will see quite a diversity of rolling stock. TGVs, V250, Traxx-hauled ICR consists and, from 2015 maybe, AGVs or the next Siemens thing (forgot the name, too late for that)

=============================

Speaking of Dutch railways, a friend of mine got a large bill (€ 103) for boarding Thalys without a ticket thinking her "open date" ticket would allow her to travel any train on that route. So she was billed for Thalys fare + service charge + fee for on-board issuance of ticket.


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## AlexNL

You're correct: the HSL will see Thalys (PBA and PBKA), Traxx+ICRm and V250. The V250 will gradually replace the ICRm rolling stock throughout 2013. At least, that's the plan. Reality might turn out to be quite different, those ICRm coaches shouldn't have been there in the first place 

Eurostar is planning on going to Amsterdam from 2014 using their new Velaro e320's, DB is planning the same with their Velaro D's. However, by the time that the Velaros will reach Amsterdam the ICRm should be gone.


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## M-NL

In other news: NS has temporarily reduced it's services in half in the Rotterdam area because of frosty conditions and sleet.

These are drastic measures for this kind of weather. I dread what will happen when there's actual snow instead of sleet and temperatures far below freezing. It seems to me that the only reason they did this is because the bonuses of the management depend on the quality of service and someone thought it was a good idea for trains that don't run to not be included in those statistics.


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## AlexNL

The go-ahead signal has been given for Amsterdam - Brussels, tickets will be on sale from tomorrow. From april 2013 there will be a service Antwerp - Breda every two hours, at the current price, without reservation or any ticket price flexibility.

Woohoo, I guess?


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## Suburbanist

M-NL said:


> In other news: NS has temporarily reduced it's services in half in the Rotterdam area because of frosty conditions and sleet.
> 
> These are drastic measures for this kind of weather. I dread what will happen when there's actual snow instead of sleet and temperatures far below freezing. It seems to me that the only reason they did this is because the bonuses of the management depend on the quality of service and someone thought it was a good idea for trains that don't run to not be included in those statistics.


Actually this is a new management plan put to deal with winter conditions. When some weather parameters are expected as imminent (temps below -5 or snow/ice/sleet), they will preemptively reduce services to avoid propagation of delays or having rolling stock stuck on a key node.

The idea is to contain delays to areas actually affected by bad weather and avoid the 2010 debacle where almost all key national services were brought to a halt while rolling stock couldn't be moved out of the heavily snowed-in Leiden-Den Haag-Rotterdam-Gouda perimeter.

This new plan also defines more clearly what are Pro-Rail responsibilities on managing snowed tracks.


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## K_

AlexNL said:


> From april 2013 there will be a service Antwerp - Breda every two hours, at the current price, without reservation or any ticket price flexibility.


What do they mean with "at the current price", as currently there is no Antwerp - Breda service... And what is their plan if the service turns out to be a huge success (which it well could become?)
In my opinion the best solution would have still been to merge the Noorderkempen shuttle with this service, and have an hourly IC Breda - Noorderkempen - Luchtbal - Antwerpen Centraal.


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> What do they mean with "at the current price", as currently there is no Antwerp - Breda service...


I think they meant the current cost for a Breda-Antwerpend trip, which is € 12,60. It is just a political/marketing ploy since the distance between both cities will be shortened 38% with new HSL Zuid/4 services. 



> And what is their plan if the service turns out to be a huge success (which it well could become?)


Maybe they will introduce seat reservation then. Breda-Antwerpen trips will be extremely fast, 34 min IIRC (vs. 65 min today with IC + Benelux train).

It is likely this service could become the choice for people who want to travel without seat and time-specific reservation, instead of the regional train Roosendaal-Essen-Antwerpen. Since domestic Fyra goes to Breda, it would offer the elusive alternative people were looking for. Actually, it might be the case domestic Fyra Amsterdam-Breda + international Fyra Breda-Antwerpen, both without seat reservation, are still faster than current Benelux train...


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## AlexNL

Breda - Antwerpen will be 29 minutes, including stops at Noorderkempen and Luchtbal. The price will be the same as Breda - Antwerpen over Roosendaal.

Since it's a political agreement and a binding contract has been signed, it's unlikely that seat reservation will ever become mandatory on this Fyra. This, indeed, makes it an attractive alternative to Fyra Amsterdam - Brussels - and will potentially cannabalize it.

The worst-case scenario for Amsterdam - Antwerp is:
- Amsterdam - Breda (about 60 minutes with V250)
- Wait 30 minutes
- Breda - Antwerp: 29 minutes

Total travel time: 1h59
Current travel time over Roosendaal: 2h14

So yes, this is faster than the current Benelux.


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## Theijs

K_ said:


> Introduce an hourly IC Breda - Noorderkempen - Luchtbal - Antwerpen Centraal.


Totally agree: let the Desiro's of NMBS prolongue their current journey to Breda. But of course a more prestigious V250 train should run there, of which the SNCB and NSHispeed will apparently only have enough by April 2013.
I still wonder why no early morning Benelux starting in Den Haag via Breda will be introduced at the 'empty hour' at the introduction timetable.


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## AlexNL

Tickets for Fyra have gone on sale at www.nshispeed.nl


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## K_

Theijs said:


> Totally agree: let the Desiro's of NMBS prolongue their current journey to Breda.


Better to use classe 18 plus I11 for this trip. Use Desiro's to run the Antwerpen - Roosendaal local every half hour.


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## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> Actually this is a new management plan put to deal with winter conditions.


I know what they did, but I do not have to like it. 

Compare NS to the SBB and JR East (the only 2 railways in the world that are considered to perform better then NS does): They do not need to half their services under snowy or low temperature conditions, so why do NS and Prorail have to? Also both SBB and JR East seem to have trains that can cope with these conditions a lot better and also their infrastructure and contingency plans are better adapted for the conditions that can be expected.

NS and ProRail still have a lot to learn before they can reach the current top levels. And I bet SBB and JR East are not satified with their current service.


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## M-NL

Starting next year trains in the Netherlands are not allowed to run on lower taxed 'red diesel' anymore. 

Several rail cargo transportation companies have already complained about the fact that transport by ship can continue to use 'red diesel' and have therefore gained an unfair advantage. They're also worried that because of rising costs, not only the more expsensive fuel, but also track usage fees have risen, they can't compete with road transport anymore.

Suggestions have also been made to electrify all tracks in the 3 northern provinces.


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## K_

M-NL said:


> Several rail cargo transportation companies have already complained about the fact that transport by ship can continue to use 'red diesel' and have therefore gained an unfair advantage. They're also worried that because of rising costs, not only the more expsensive fuel, but also track usage fees have risen, they can't compete with road transport anymore.


When something changes there will always be complaints. Those same companies aren't complaining about the fact that in Switzerland track charges basically include electricity, whether you use it or not...


----------



## Suburbanist

*Hanzelijn opened*

The Lelystad - Zwolle higher speed connection has been opened. Trains are already running today, though full services only start, officially, with the change on the timetable tomorrow.

There were boasting that the line has been completed under budget without massive cost overruns and delays that have become the norm on recent rail projects in the Netherlands (Betuwelijn, HSL Zuid, Noordzuidlijn)

People waiting first trains in station Dronten









Royal train crossing the IJssel









Station Dronten


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## Suburbanist

It has been announced that after June's timetable change the night train network on the Rotterdam-Dordrecht-Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven-'s.Hertogenbosch-Utrecht loop will be restored to 4 night trains per Friday and Saturday night. Until then, trains stop running after 2am

I work at a university, and students were complaining loudly about "their" train being taken off for 6 months (meaning: if they go out to other cities, they have to wait until 7 or 8am for the first train next day to come back).

The sense of entitlement of some students is quite staggering. They were complaining and staging a small protest as if it were a fundamental student right to have a night train to go party in other cities. Gosh.

Now on the costs: this limited night service, running only two nights a week (e.g., a total of 16 train runs per week on the whole one-way route), will cost € 1.150.000 per year (up from € 850.000 on the old 2007 contract). Security costs have increased, as NS says it needs some extra security on stations to prevent vandalism and loitering if they are to be opened at night and to use only 2-person teams of fare enforcers/conductors (apparently but not surprising, a train with many youth semi-drunk passengers is prone to confrontations with conductors over fares and rules of use).

Noord Brabant province is complaining that the night network on Randstad is covered by NS as a regular expense, and so should Noord Brabant routes. But NS says if it were to operate a night network in Noord Brabant, it would have to agree to demand for night trains all the way to Maastricht, Arnhem and Zwolle at least.


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## AlexNL

...which makes you wonder at what rate Arriva could offer a night train service. Or even a nightly express bus network.


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> ...which makes you wonder at what rate Arriva could offer a night train service. Or even a nightly express bus network.


But I think the major difference in costs is not on train operation itself, but station operation. At least that is what I read on the BD newspaper. 

Would it be possible to Arriva or Veolia to man the station at nights only? Wouldn't some duplicate staff be needed?

I think the station staffing should be shifted to Pro-Rail from NS.


----------



## AlexNL

Earlier today, an intercity heading towards Schiphol Airport caught fire in the vincinity of Abcoude. At the time of the fire, around 75 to 90 passengers were on board of the train. The train was evacuated quickly, nobody got injured. However, the fire did cause major disruptions until after evening peak hours. 

Three youngsters were take into custody on the suspicion of arson, possibly with fireworks.




























The train is of the type VIRM, consisting of 6 carriages. It can carry up to 750 passengers, of which 500 seated. The fire supposedly started in a toilet, destroying an entire carriage and severly damaging the adjacent carriage.


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## Wilhem275

Let me guess... "Let's see what happens if we throw a firework in the potty!" "Yeah, cool!" hno:

Oh, my poor VIRMs... this is the second serious damage in a few months, after the Westerpark accident.


Would have been nice if the fire developed under the infamous Abcoude acquaduct :nuts:


----------



## Suburbanist

'Was that other VIRM involved on the crash written off?


----------



## AlexNL

It hasn't been written off entirely: NS and NedTrain are looking into the possibility of fixing the coaches that suffered minor damages and reusing those to form new VIRM train sets.


----------



## Suburbanist

I found this schematic map of Dutch intercity services on the Metronetwerk blog


----------



## steedness

No connection between Leuwarden and Groningen?


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## AlexNL

The map is incomplete, it looks like it only shows the intercity network as operated by NS. There are many railway lines that have local trains operated by Veolia, Arriva, NS and others.

You can find an interactive map or a PDF version.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> DB is sending sub-par rolling stock to NL. They should use Velaros, AGVs etc. on that service, since trains use HSL east of Hannover.


No need for that as the intercity stops more frequently than the ICE does, thus the benefit for the higher top speed is lost just as quickly. Also, the HSL only allows for 250 kph which is just 20 kph more than ICx K1n's top speed - 230 kph.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> DB is sending sub-par rolling stock to NL.


Well, compared to AnsaldoBreda, everything else is like heaven.


----------



## flierfy

Wilhem275 said:


> A question about the Hanzelijn: when Zwolle - Almelo railway will reopen, is there any plan to move there Amsterdam - Berlin IC services, via Lelystad - Zwolle - Almelo?
> 
> It would be some 5 km longer, but mostly at 200 km/h as permitted by the coaches (with adequate locos of course). This way that agony-slow train would be a little faster and we'd get a higher use of the line.


The section which is prepared for speeds up to 200 km/h is rather short. There is very little to gain for the Amsterdam to Berlin services there. It would probably not even enough to compensate the longer way. And then there is the small matter of capacity on the Flevolijn. There are already frequent local services on this line. With Almere and Lelystad expected to keep growing even more services could be needed there in the future. Which in return would leave little space for long distance services. Especially for long DB services which are prone to be late.


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> No need for that as the intercity stops more frequently than the ICE does, thus the benefit for the higher top speed is lost just as quickly. Also, the HSL only allows for 250 kph which is just 20 kph more than ICx K1n's top speed - 230 kph.


This service to Berlin has already been retired by NS from its regular timetable planning. They could do the same in Germany, cut some stops and use IC4. 

For instance, if you go to DB website and make a query from Amsterdam/Rotterdam/else to Berlin, it will suggest you change train in Hannover to an ICE, arriving before the IC (and it wil usually suggest the same on the opposite direction).

As for V250 on those services: it would be interesting, but DB is poised against Italian train manufacturers so it is unlikely they'd buy the trains even if they were available. 

But the important thing is that the current rolling stock from the 1980s will be retired soon.


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> This service to Berlin has already been retired by NS from its regular timetable planning. They could do the same in Germany, cut some stops and use IC4.


There's no reason for DB to do just that. Cutting stops makes the train less attractive for a lot of passengers (as they have to change trains more often) while the time gained is only a few minutes. It might even make a city (such as Wolfsburg) itself less attractive as it loses a direct connection to Berlin.

Besides...
For instance, if you go to DB website and make a query from Amsterdam/Rotterdam/else to Berlin, it will suggest you change train in Hannover to an ICE, arriving before the IC (and it wil usually suggest the same on the opposite direction).
[/quote]Passengers wanting to go faster between Hannover and Berlin can already do so.


> As for V250 on those services: it would be interesting, but DB is poised against Italian train manufacturers so it is unlikely they'd buy the trains even if they were available.


DB preferres to buy German, just as SNCF prefers to buy French and companies from the USA are preferring American built goods over anything else. However, if it suits DB better they procure French, Spanish. DB signed a framework agreement with CAF and Alstom for regional trains rolling stock.

If AnsaldoBreda were to propose a good deal and offers a decent contract (including termination clauses and fines for late delivery or poor quality) I am sure DB would consider them during a tender.


> But the important thing is that the current rolling stock from the 1980s will be retired soon.


The current rolling stock is being refurbished and brought up to "ICE standards" (some would call it "brought down to" instead). It will be able to last for a couple of more years before being cascaded down onto other services or being put aside.

ICx won't come in service before 2016, and of coruse there's always a chance of it getting delayed due for various reasons.


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## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> ICx won't come in service before 2016, and of coruse there's always a chance of it getting delayed due for various reasons.


...the main one being Siemens' good ol' tradition about delivery timing :| 


About Ansaldo: I wouldn't buy anything from them even if they were the last train maker on planet Earth.
Latest Italian HS trains will be a joint-venture between AB and Bombardier - the latter one building everything important so the other can't screw up.

They have no more skills to design a new train, they can only assemble it.

On the other hand they're good with subways systems, and they seem to have a good market in USA. And Ansaldo STS is a respectable name in the signalling field.
Can't understand why they have to make ugly products along with good stuff...


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> The current rolling stock is being refurbished and brought up to "ICE standards" (some would call it "brought down to" instead). It will be able to last for a couple of more years before being cascaded down onto other services or being put aside.


Well, some people will never get over the elimination of compartments or use or modern open plans on 2nd class cars. 

But I don't think nostalgia for bygone era should dictate refurbishment plans...


----------



## thun

True. Customer's wishes should.


----------



## Suburbanist

thun said:


> True. Customer's wishes should.


But that is a basic problem of whatever service that is standardized and meant to serve a large number of people. It is impossible to manufacture a train that will please everyone. Moreover, there are economic considerations to be made

Compartments are more expensive and make it difficult to fit every one of them with LCD travel information panels and to fit train cars with surveillance cameras that can give a full view of all seats.


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## AlexNL

One of the best ways to meet customer demands is to live up to their expectations and wishes. Another way is to offer value-for-money.

That's why the new Frecciarossa 1000 will be equipped with 4 (yes, four) classes. It's why .Italo has three. It's why Railjet has three. It's why you can reserve a separate room in Thalys.

The price of any of those options is higher than the price of normal ticket (the price for using the Business Class in Railjet is a premium ticket + € 15,-) but you get more out of it.


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## Suburbanist

^^ I agree with you.

The problem is that the amateur or semi-amateurs Internet community revolving around transportation is plagued by nostalgia and irrational conservatism. Things like losing sleep (or affirming to do so) because a train has an "ugly" nose that has ZERO impact over the passenger riding experience. Or, in the context of subways and heavy commuter rail, complaining vocally about platform screen doors for no reason but that it kills the better part of the hobby of taking photos of movies of trains from station platforms... And then sometimes (thank God not often) these very people find some naive general news reporter that write about such grievances as if they were serious.

=====================

Now, in relate to multiple service classes: I'm all for it, but you need to operate under a reservation system to make them viable. Else, you end with people paying the lowest class ticket, and then expecting to be let use other classes of service because the cheapest one if full.


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## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Now, in relate to multiple service classes: I'm all for it, but you need to operate under a reservation system to make them viable. Else, you end with people paying the lowest class ticket, and then expecting to be let use other classes of service because the cheapest one if full.


In Switzerland you can't seat in first class if the second is full...


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The problem is that the amateur or semi-amateurs Internet community revolving around transportation is plagued by nostalgia and irrational conservatism.


Not to forget those that are plagued by ignorance...


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> That's why the new Frecciarossa 1000 will be equipped with 4 (yes, four) classes.


Side note: the present day Frecciarossa fleet (good old ETR 500) is being refurbished into 4 classes.
I doubt 2 lower levels are needed, but that's just the way it is.



Suburbanist said:


> Things like losing sleep (or affirming to do so) because a train has an "ugly" nose that has ZERO impact over the passenger riding experience.


And, let's face it, Dutch trains always had ugly noses  it's a tradition feature


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I agree with you.
> 
> The problem is that the amateur or semi-amateurs Internet community revolving around transportation is plagued by nostalgia and irrational conservatism.


I don't take many hobbyist seriously anyway. There are people who are very knowledgable about a subject, but usually they're quite ignorant and don't take reality into account. Steam trains were brilliant when they were invented, but as time progresses so does technology. Passengers don't want 50 year old rolling stock either, they want something more modern and con-temporal. Most hobbyists tend to forget that. 

I only take photos at a station if that fits within the picture I want to make. Usually platforms are crowded and the time to take a picture is limited. People walk in front of the camera, and it's usually not allowed to use a tripod or flash. Out in the field those nuisances are far less prevalent.


Coccodrillo said:


> In Switzerland you can't seat in first class if the second is full...


That's not allowed in the Netherlands, either. It's an urban myth kept alive by train managers that are pretty much invisible when a train is packed.


----------



## Sunfuns

Wilhem275 said:


> Side note: the present day Frecciarossa fleet (good old ETR 500) is being refurbished into 4 classes.
> I doubt 2 lower levels are needed, but that's just the way it is.


I wonder about that as well. Maybe that's not the case everywhere, but in Switzerland, Germany and France (TGV) 2nd class is just fine. Personally I've never found a good reason to a lot more for the 1st class. The only real benefit is less people around.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I agree with you.
> Things like losing sleep (or affirming to do so) because a train has an "ugly" nose that has ZERO impact over the passenger riding experience.


Or one man's irrational quest to glorify a shit pile of a train.


----------



## thun

Sunfuns said:


> I wonder about that as well. (...) Personally I've never found a good reason to a lot more for the 1st class. The only real benefit is less people around.


I guess its an unavoidable side effect of the liberalisation of train operations. With new competition, operators have to find ways to differentiate their products and there are very few ways to do so if you don't want to enter an vicious circle of fare dumping. Offering more classes to skim a multitude of willingnesses to pay of your customers is a more attractive option. Time will show if customers actually accept such offers when it comes to train journeys.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> I wonder about that as well. Maybe that's not the case everywhere, but in Switzerland, Germany and France (TGV) 2nd class is just fine. Personally I've never found a good reason to a lot more for the 1st class. The only real benefit is less people around.


I actually don't find 2nd class on the TGV just fine. On a TGV I will always try to get a 1st class ticket for a discounted price. 2nd class is too cramped. You really notice that the French are on average a lot smaller than Northern Europeans when you take their trains...


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> In Switzerland you can't seat in first class if the second is full...


You're not even allowed to stand in first class with a second class ticket.


----------



## Christopher125

Wilhem275 said:


> I'd blow air on the rails to remove them, since air under pressure is way easier to provide and manage on a train. You use the onboard compressors and set up just a bunch of trains able to blow air directly to the rails.


I don't think it would be practical, leaves along the track are already blown about by passing trains but that still leads to them ending up on the railhead one way or another. Controlling lineside vegetation is still the best way to combat it.

Chris


----------



## Wilhem275

Is there a reason why such a widespread project of renovation was started? A political will to bring more people to PT?




Christopher125 said:


> I don't think it would be practical, leaves along the track are already blown about by passing trains but that still leads to them ending up on the railhead one way or another. *Controlling lineside vegetation is still the best way to combat it.*


Yep, absolutely. My idea was about wet leaves already sticked to rails (which are the ones giving low friction problems), usually they're heavey so if you blow them away before they get under the wheels you solve part of the problem.

But still is a complicate answer to a simple problem


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> Is there a reason why such a widespread project of renovation was started? A political will to bring more people to PT?


Public Transportation in the Netherlands has seen a significant growth in the past, more passengers are using the stations than what they were designed for. This results in overcrowding of platforms, corridors and concourses. To cope with the current and expected future demand, ProRail, NS and City Hall of the affected stations decide to renovate.

In Eindhoven, the main corridor will be widened, the same is taking place in Zwolle. Amsterdam is having a major renovation to cope with the passenger influx created by the Noord/Zuidlijn (the new metro line currently under construction). In Tilburg, a new platform will be constructed as the current station lacks the capacity for the services desired by the province.

In other areas, such as Breda, Rotterdam and Utrecht, the station buildings themselves are old and in need of renovation. In Breda, City Hall is taking the opportunity to rejuvenate the surroundings (project Via Breda). 

Last but not least, the renovation/rebuilding of these stations creates new space for commercial real estate, which is mostly operated by NS itself. Customer satisfaction surveys indicate that the shopping facilities at the stations are appreciated by the passengers, and recently developed formulas such as "Julia's" (Pasta to go), "Sissy Boy" (clothing) and "Starbucks" (fancy coffee) are pulling people towards the station.

Overall, the renovation of stations is a triple-win situation:
- Passengers get to enjoy spacious, modern stations with plenty of facilities
- NS gets a money-making machine (thanks to retail) which they can use to brag about
- Cities get a revamped station, which increases the attractiveness of the entire area


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## Wilhem275

And even more demand for transport is generated 

So the whole project began due to demand higher than what the facilities could cope with.


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## AlexNL

During redesign of a station, not only current demand is taken into account, but future demand is estimated as well. This is so they won't have to redo everything within 10 years.

For Breda, for example, the arrival of the high speed train has been a major factor. The time to get from Breda to Schiphol or Amsterdam has been slashed in half, a connection with Antwerp will also be much shorter than the current offerings. This will create more demand for Breda, thus the station is built for it. In the worst case scenario, it takes longer than anticipated to reach the expected usage.


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## Wilhem275

A question about HS in Breda (I don't remember if I asked already...).

The connection from HS to the old line is some 11 km away from the city station, so you have HS services sharing this pretty long stretch with standard traffic.
Isn't this slowing them down or creating congestion on the old line?


----------



## AlexNL

Between Breda and the current place of the connection (at the Rotterdam side), there's not much space to create a fly-over. You've got to do with the A16, buildings on both sides of the track (at Prinsenbeek), and farms. I'm guessing that land acquisition costs would've been too high to build the connection further to the south.

Also, the benefits would've been limited: when coming from Breda, the train still has to pick up speed in order not to hamper other traffic on the high speed line. The 10 km of track is long enough for a HS train to be able to pick up speed, even if there's a freight train in front of it. Similarily, when leaving the HSL-Zuid the train has to decelerate. At its current position, deceleration to 140 km/h is sufficient, but if the junction were further to the south, it might have to be to 80 km/h.

Slow trains on a high speed line severely limit capacity, something which can be inconvenient for Thalyses or other high speed trains to/from Brussels. The current placement of the connection isn't that inconvenient, either, as it's after the junction towards Roosendaal. The stretch of track between Lage Zwaluwe and Breda has these trains:

- 2x/hr intercity The Hague - Venlo
- 1x/hr regional service Breda - The Hague (2x/hr during rush hour)
- 2x/hr Fyra Amsterdam - Breda (1x/hr after 20:00)
- Some freight trains (but not much anymore, most freight uses the Betuweroute nowadays)

That amount of trains doesn't cause any kind of capacity problems.


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## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> At its current position, deceleration to 140 km/h is sufficient, but if the junction were further to the south, it might have to be to 80 km/h.


Mmh, right, that's the point. I'm used to longer junctions, while that is almost nonexistent :lol:, there wouldn't be enough space to accelerate decently.
I like that junction, very smart design. The whole LHD/RHD switch is interesting.

Well, if the old line has no capacity problem, then there's nothing to be worried about :cheers:


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## Wilhem275

A question about Knoopunkt De Nieuwe Meer (well, that's the name of the road junction ).

In recent videos I saw building works all around the junction, it seems they're upgrading it, and it would make sense since traffic HSL<->Sloterdijk is increasing and the existing design implies crossing all tracks.

Are they reaching this kind of design?


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## Silly_Walks

^^

As far as I know they're not working on that connection.

They are quadrupling the other tracks that go to Amsterdam Zuid station.


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## Wilhem275

Yep, I knew that but I didn't find any pictures of the project 

To be more clear, I'm talking about this:
http://youtu.be/4ohi1POMsf4?t=8m45s

The embankments they're drafting on the left seem like a new ramp from Schiphol to Sloterdijk... but it may just be a work of fantasy 

Is it true that most traffic from CS goes on to HSL and Leiden, while traffic from Zuid mostly terminates at Hoofdorp? In this case switching the way tracks merge would make sense.


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## M-NL

Wilhem275 said:


> A question about Knoopunkt De Nieuwe Meer (well, that's the name of the road junction ).


And as you probably expected the railway junction has a different name: Riekerpolder aansluiting.


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## Wilhem275

Thank you for answering the hidden question :lol:

Now that I have the right name, Google told me a lot about the projects going on... what is really comical is that most infos are here in SSC (in the Dutch forum), and Images search even listed that silly image I posted at #670 :nuts:

About the project management:
http://www.railinfrasolutions.nl/projecten/baan-en-spoorbouw/ovsaal-west/

Well well, I was not wrong 













http://nemetschek-scia.com/nl/compa...poorkruising-riekerpolder-amsterdam-nederland









http://www.prorail.nl/Publiek/Infraprojecten/NoordHolland/OVSAAL/Zuidas/Inbeeld/Pages/Visuals.aspx


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## bagus70

Hi I would like to know more about railway in Netherlands.


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## hammersklavier

Indeed, that's what this thread's for.


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## M-NL

*Next generation SLT*

I'm a bit confused now: Last Friday NS issued a 'Request for Proposal' for a new series of commuter trains to replace older models like the current SGMm Sprinters starting 2018.
I was under the impression they already did that in juli 2012.
A few highlights for the new trains:

Equipped with ERTMS (no info on STM-ATB or separate ATB)
Equipped with wide doors and low-level floors
Must be wheel chair accessible
Must be based on existing technology
Last years info also specified 2 variants (a 150 seat and a 250 seat variant), quick acceleration, a 160 km/h top speed and 'must be suitable for Dutch weather'. Hopefully they have learned by now that their specification of Dutch weather wasn't accurate enough for the SLT and V250. I can't find any info on 25kV AC (or 3000V DC) suitability.

What interests me most is what they consider 'Existing technology'. Would a Stadler FLIRT for 1500V DC be existing technology given that it has never been built before?


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## bagus70

I would like to know whether if cape gauge railway line did exist in Netherland?


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## Slagathor

M-NL said:


> 'must be suitable for Dutch weather'. Hopefully they have learned by now that their specification of Dutch weather wasn't accurate enough for the SLT and V250.


You're right, that was really stupid. When people hear "Dutch weather", much like "English weather", they just think "rain." No problem, our train can handle rain! 

"Must be able to handle 2 months in Norway and 2 months in Mali." would be a better description of our weather.


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## Coccodrillo

bagus70 said:


> I would like to know whether if cape gauge railway line did exist in Netherland?


3ft 6in are a nice size in imperial units, but not in the international units (1067 mm). Most narrow gauge lines in Europe use 750, 760 or 1000 mm gauges. The United Kingdom and Ireland still have some 914 mm/3ft/1 yard lines, but not much Cape gauge lines. The few examples of Cape gauge lines in Europe I am aware of are a tramway line in the Isle of Man (still in use) and one line somewhere in Scandinavia (now closed).

The standard gauge story is different, as it is not round either in imperial (4ft 8.5in) nor in international (1435 mm) units.


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## Maarten Otto

bagus70 said:


> I would like to know whether if cape gauge railway line did exist in Netherlands?


In a complete flat country where a third of the land mass lays below sea level? Make an educated guess....


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## 3737

It was just anounced that arriva in cooperation with Brussel airport will start a international connection between The Hague and Brussel South via the old benelux line as an anwser on the failing fyra. The train will stop in The Hague , Delft , Rotterdam ,Dordrecht, Roosendaal, Antwerpen, Mechelen, Brussel Central en Brussel South.


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## mappero

^^ Cool! With conventional loc + wagon trains like that https://www.google.be/maps?q=fun&ll=51.471232,4.448422&spn=0.003375,0.010504&sll=51.264470,4.462776&layer=c&cid=15285554825288264662&cbp=13,205.37,,0,-2.48&panoid=MOvOyTTyAqo-n_gcUmUbkg&hq=fun&t=m&z=17&cbll=51.471395,4.448365 or other ?


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## Glodenox

It's not certain yet which trains they'd use, but I think it isn't very likely they'll use the NMBS/SNCB cabins shown there. Also keep in mind that they haven't been given a trajectory for their trains yet as far as I'm aware. I think it's a bit too optimistic to say that the train will now run with certainty, but a big step has been set here.

Also, Brussels Airport is also going to be a stop between Mechelen and Brussels Central. The original article failed to include this stop in the list.


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## AlexNL

Arriva has stated that they're currently negotiating with train manufacturers, they want to operate this service with brand new rolling stock.


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## K_

AlexNL said:


> Arriva has stated that they're currently negotiating with train manufacturers, they want to operate this service with brand new rolling stock.


Stadler Flirt maybe?


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## AlexNL

Stadler FLIRT or maybe even KISS is what I expect, yes.


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## Slagathor

How on Earth are they gonna get that ready before December?


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## 3737

^^ They won't. The connection is started in December 2015 or earlier if possible as seen on nu.nl (dutch).


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## Wilhem275

If they reach an agreement with another operator who already ordered the trains, from now to December they car fit NS/SNCB equipment and complete test runs.

Some KISSes are already built (just an example).

That's not a probable scenario, IMO.


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## Theijs

K_ said:


> Stadler Flirt maybe?


Would the Railjet be an option? With that train they might be able to switch to the HSL...


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## AlexNL

They don't want to switch to the high speed line


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## Suburbanist

In any case: RENFE has some 40 trains idling on its depots. What is the technical feasibility (assuming RENFE wants to) of converting some 10 of their high-speed trains not in use to operate with ATB and the Belgian system?


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## AlexNL

It depends on the type of trains not used by RENFE. If they are pure AVE trainsets, it's most likely that these trains will only run on 25 kV AC. In that case you can pretty much forget about ever getting these trains to run in Belgium or the Netherlands, as heavy modifications are needed for these trains to be able to run under 1.5 kV DC and 3 kV DC.

However, if the trains are of the Avant/Alaris/Alvia type (for example, S/120 or S/130), there is hope. These types of trains are made to serve not only high speed lines, but local branch lines as well. They're fitted with gauge changing bogies and can run both on 25 kV AC and 3 kV DC. Having them also run under 1.5 kV DC will be an engineering challenge, but it is definitely not impossible.

As you point out, the major hurdle is the safety system. The Spanish high speed lines are usually signalled with ERTMS and ASFA. The ASFA equipment can be removed (as ASFA is not needed) and replaced with ATB and the Belgian safety systems. 

As part of the ERTMS specification, a piece of technology has been developed to interface with legacy signalling systems. This is called a Specific Transmission Module (abbreviated STM), which is installed as part of the ERTMS Vital Computer (EVC), the heart and soul of the ERTMS safety system. The STM translates commands received from the legacy safety system to commands which the EVC can understand.

For the Netherlands, an STM-ATB has been developed and certified for use a couple of years ago. If I'm not mistaken, Traxx locomotives already use this STM-ATB to run on the Dutch network. Not too long ago, an STM-Belgium was developed to support Memor and TBL interfacing in Belgium, which is due to be re-fitted onto the ICE 3M trainsets.

As ERTMS leans heavily on standardisation, it should be possible to add an existing STM to an existing EVC, even if these come from different vendors. So, theoretically speaking, it should be possible to add the Dutch and Belgian safety systems to the Spanish trainsets.

However, STMs aren't cheap, as ERTMS overall isn't cheap. The entire system is classified as SIL 4 (Safety Integrity Level), which means that the margin for errors is very, very slim. Even when these STMs can be easily retrofitted onto the Spanish rolling stock, extensive testing of the safety systems on the Dutch and Belgian networks is needed.


----------



## K_

3737 said:


> ^^ They won't. The connection is started in December 2015 or earlier if possible as seen on


December 2015 is definitely possible. Stadler has free capacity in it's Bussnang factory in 2014/2015. If Arriva is quick in placing an order production could start almost immediately.

But the safest bet would probably be to get passenger coaches to a UIC design, and locomotives of a type already homologated for Belgium and the Netherlands, as there the highest risk for delays lies.


----------



## XAN_

AlexNL said:


> Having them also run under 1.5 kV DC will be an engineering challenge, but it is definitely not impossible.


Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power


----------



## Suburbanist

XAN_ said:


> Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power


But that is a serious performance hurdle, except for very short runs (like couple km between a change of current point and a changing of loco station).


----------



## Theijs

XAN_ said:


> Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power


'Any' does disturb the trick. NMBS had expected to run with the new Desiro's to the Netherlands (Roosendaal / Maastricht), but what works on the analogue build BN trains, doesn't seem to work with the digital Desiro's.


----------



## AlexNL

In the old days this was definitely true, any train capable of running under 3 kV could run under 1.5 kV at half power. For modern trains this is different, as the components used are much more sensitive. The Desiro trains cease to operate under 2 kV, for example.


----------



## mappero

AlexNL said:


> Stadler FLIRT or maybe even KISS is what I expect, yes.


It's also possibility to buy Polish brand new trains produced by Pesa or Newag. Some of them are already in service in Germany, Poland, Italy, Lithuania


----------



## MarcVD

XAN_ said:


> Correct me if I wrong, but I heard, that any 3 kV DC train can be ran under 1,5 kV DC, but only with half of traction power


P=U²/R, so if you divide U by two, you divide the power by four. Which 
definitely ruins any hope for performance. Running at half tension is only
used to reach the next station where locos can be exchanged (exemple :
SNCB to Roosendaal, SNCB to Maastricht, FS to Vintimiglia) but is never
used for long stretches of mainline. Bitension locos (SNCB 11 & 25.5 for
example) are used for that.

On the other hand, if you have equipment for 3 kV, adapting it to run
also Under 1.5 kV is not difficult at all. It was done on some Eurostar sets.
As explained above, the most difficult part is the safety systems.

Which is why I also believe that loco + UIC coaches is the best short-term
option.


----------



## AlexNL

According to International Rail Journal, Arriva has ordered 8 6-car FLIRT 3 trains from Stadler.


----------



## Momo1435

Some pictures I took yesterday.

VIRM's at Leiden Centraal

1

IMG_1464 by Momo1435, on Flickr

2

IMG_1475 by Momo1435, on Flickr


3. ICM at Amsterdam Zuid


IMG_1522 by Momo1435, on Flickr


4. Amsterdam Centraal


IMG_1711 by Momo1435, on Flickr

5.

IMG_1714 by Momo1435, on Flickr

6.

IMG_1725 by Momo1435, on Flickr

7. DDZ 


IMG_1745 by Momo1435, on Flickr


8. ICR driving trailer in Rotterdam Centraal


IMG_1756 by Momo1435, on Flickr


9. The Hague Centraal


IMG_1785 by Momo1435, on Flickr


10.

IMG_1799 by Momo1435, on Flickr


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## Surel

Today I experienced the bad side of the OV-kaart functionality. I did no consider its application in the trains (but also in the city public transport) as well done, but after today I think that certain aspects of it are clear failure.

I came with the train from Germany to Venlo. I planned that I would go from Venlo to Zwolle and then further on. I searched the price for my trip to be 23 euro op de NS webpage. The trip was Venlo - Nijmegen - Zwolle - further on.

I came in Venlo and had to use Veolia. Checked in at Veolia, checked out in Nijmegen just to pay 13 euro. But then I had to check in again at NS in Nijmegen!! NS then charges further 20 euro. Thus the total price comes at 33 euro instead of 23!!! I realized this in Nijmegen and went to NS counter to demand a refund or another solution. They just send me away with saying that I should have bought the paper ticket in Venlo to get the price 23 euro for the trip.

What kind of system is this?

a) Ov kaart does not in fact function when changing train operators.
b) It does not bring any financial benefit to the customer and I doubt that it brings financial benefit to the operator (due to the investments costs)
c) It makes certain sort of pricing impossible under current implementation.

d) *It makes it impossible to know the price of a trip beforehand in similar situations. The only way how to find the price when using OV kaart is looking at the NS reisadvies, but nowhere does NS states the price for when using the OV kaart on this trip!! It just small prints after some clicking that the OV kaart price can differ from the paper ticket price.*

I use OV kaart already several years, and can't really see any real benefit, especially in the train transport.

I would guess that the biggest interest in the OV kaart were the companies that were implementing it as it meant and means profit. I can imagine that the NS, Veolia, etc. are also happy with it as it allows unclear pricing, especially in cases like this.

There is no technological obstacle that would not allow the trip I made being charged correctly.

The approach of the NS clerks at the counter in Nijmegen really pissed me off. I must say that consider this type of pricing a theft on a customer.


----------



## Surel

AlexNL said:


> According to International Rail Journal, Arriva has ordered 8 6-car FLIRT 3 trains from Stadler.


FLIRT is ok, and the distance Den Haag - Brussels is not that high (just 160 km). I took FLIRT several times on Ostrava - Praag (360 km) and the economy class could use bit more space though on this distance. Wonder how it will look like.










The point is however, that the FLIRT gives much better economic results than heavy Railjets or others. And the distance is just right for a nice bi-directional tact service.


----------



## da_scotty

Surel said:


> Today I experienced the bad side of the OV-kaart functionality. I did no consider its application in the trains (but also in the city public transport) as well done, but after today I think that certain aspects of it are clear failure.
> 
> I came with the train from Germany to Venlo. I planned that I would go from Venlo to Zwolle and then further on. I searched the price for my trip to be 23 euro op de NS webpage. The trip was Venlo - Nijmegen - Zwolle - further on.
> 
> I came in Venlo and had to use Veolia. Checked in at Veolia, checked out in Nijmegen just to pay 13 euro. But then I had to check in again at NS in Nijmegen!! NS then charges further 20 euro. Thus the total price comes at 33 euro instead of 23!!! I realized this in Nijmegen and went to NS counter to demand a refund or another solution. They just send me away with saying that I should have bought the paper ticket in Venlo to get the price 23 euro for the trip.
> 
> What kind of system is this?
> 
> a) Ov kaart does not in fact function when changing train operators.
> b) It does not bring any financial benefit to the customer and I doubt that it brings financial benefit to the operator (due to the investments costs)
> c) It makes certain sort of pricing impossible under current implementation.
> 
> d) *It makes it impossible to know the price of a trip beforehand in similar situations. The only way how to find the price when using OV kaart is looking at the NS reisadvies, but nowhere does NS states the price for when using the OV kaart on this trip!! It just small prints after some clicking that the OV kaart price can differ from the paper ticket price.*
> 
> I use OV kaart already several years, and can't really see any real benefit, especially in the train transport.
> 
> I would guess that the biggest interest in the OV kaart were the companies that were implementing it as it meant and means profit. I can imagine that the NS, Veolia, etc. are also happy with it as it allows unclear pricing, especially in cases like this.
> 
> There is no technological obstacle that would not allow the trip I made being charged correctly.
> 
> The approach of the NS clerks at the counter in Nijmegen really pissed me off. I must say that consider this type of pricing a theft on a customer.


a) They are working/have finished working on that, they have elliminated the double check-in cost, though (for splitting the money) double checking in has to happen anyway, the same way you have to when changing train to bus travel

b) on bus/tram/metro systems it does, it gains a much fairer payment structure due to the payment from halt to halt instead of sector too sector (although that can turn out the other way as well). You do not notice this though, because prices have gone up along the whole linehno:

c) ??

d) I do disagree, checking 9292.ov shows exactly what you will pay with the chipkaart.




I find using the OV-card really easy. I travel between Delft-Oss and Delft-Utrecht on a regular basis, and I've started paying less then when I had to buy a regular ticket. (inflations not counted though)


----------



## Silly_Walks

Surel said:


> Today I experienced the bad side of the OV-kaart functionality. I did no consider its application in the trains (but also in the city public transport) as well done, but after today I think that certain aspects of it are clear failure.
> 
> I came with the train from Germany to Venlo. I planned that I would go from Venlo to Zwolle and then further on. I searched the price for my trip to be 23 euro op de NS webpage. The trip was Venlo - Nijmegen - Zwolle - further on.
> 
> I came in Venlo and had to use Veolia. Checked in at Veolia, checked out in Nijmegen just to pay 13 euro. But then I had to check in again at NS in Nijmegen!! NS then charges further 20 euro. Thus the total price comes at 33 euro instead of 23!!! I realized this in Nijmegen and went to NS counter to demand a refund or another solution. They just send me away with saying that I should have bought the paper ticket in Venlo to get the price 23 euro for the trip.


Hold on, let's try to make your story a bit more clear:

You took the Veolia train from Venlo to Nijmegen, and that cost 13 euros?

Then you took the NS train from Nijmegen tot Zwolle, and that cost 20 euros? But you already figured this out in Nijmegen? How can you figure out the cost of the trip is 20 euros, if you haven't travelled to Zwolle yet to check out there?

According to the NS site, the price for travelling from Nijmegen to Zwolle is € 15.20, regardless of whether you use OV-Chip or a paper ticket, so I don't really know where you got your € 20 from?
Or did you forget that NS as standard charges 20 euros off your card on check-in, only to refund you the surplus (20 euros minus the actual cost of your trip) on check-out?


Anyway, according to the NS site the trip Venlo-Nijmegen is only € 10.50, while 9292.nl says it is € 13.04. According to 9292.nl the total trip from Venlo to Zwolle would be € 27.38 for a single journey trip on an OV-Chip without discounts. This would mean the NS part of the trip is € 14.34 in stead of € 15.20, which makes sense because if all is right these days you don't have to pay that 'basistarief' of € 0.83 after switching between trains of different operators, as long as you switch within 35 minutes.


It seems your trip was supposed to be € 27.38. 
If I look on the NS website right now for Venlo-Zwolle, it actually tells me that trip is only € 20.70, with a small disclaimer that prices can vary from what you see on the site. If you click that link it explains NS can't possibly know the correct price because part of the trip is done by another operator... in other words, they are morons 



In conclusion I think 2 things happened here:
1. NS are morons and they should finally get their stinking websites in order and not provide false information (knowingly even!!)
2. You checked in at NS in Nijmegen, freaked out cause you saw minus 20 euros appearing on the screen, ran to some person and started screaming at them, not realizing you still had to check out at Zwolle to get part of your money back automatically at check-out :lol:


The OV-chip has plenty of faults, but the faulty NS website can not be blamed on the OV-chip.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think most people get confused by the withdraw (4/10/20 euros) and then refund of remainder upon check-out.

I think they should just show the balance upon check-in, and the actual fare upon check-out.


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## M-NL

They should have closed of the stations, just like originally planned. That way you do not need to 'reserve' 20 euros, but only the amount to the next stations and you can travel first, find out how much you need to pay and charge up you card with that amount, before you can leave the destination station (just like in Japan with it's fare adjustment machines).

But no, they created such an impossible chip card system that no money was left to actually implement the closing off of stations. Also in the current system around 1% of the travellers forgets to check out. Thus with trips costing less then 20 euros the remainder goes to the company you travelled with (which according to news sources is around 30 millions euros). You can reclaim this amount though, but lots of people can't be bothered.


----------



## Surel

Silly_Walks said:


> Hold on, let's try to make your story a bit more clear:
> 
> You took the Veolia train from Venlo to Nijmegen, and that cost 13 euros?
> 
> Then you took the NS train from Nijmegen tot Zwolle, and that cost 20 euros? But you already figured this out in Nijmegen? How can you figure out the cost of the trip is 20 euros, if you haven't travelled to Zwolle yet to check out there?
> 
> According to the NS site, the price for travelling from Nijmegen to Zwolle is € 15.20, regardless of whether you use OV-Chip or a paper ticket, so I don't really know where you got your € 20 from?
> Or did you forget that NS as standard charges 20 euros off your card on check-in, only to refund you the surplus (20 euros minus the actual cost of your trip) on check-out?
> 
> 
> Anyway, according to the NS site the trip Venlo-Nijmegen is only € 10.50, while 9292.nl says it is € 13.04. According to 9292.nl the total trip from Venlo to Zwolle would be € 27.38 for a single journey trip on an OV-Chip without discounts. This would mean the NS part of the trip is € 14.34 in stead of € 15.20, which makes sense because if all is right these days you don't have to pay that 'basistarief' of € 0.83 after switching between trains of different operators, as long as you switch within 35 minutes.
> 
> 
> It seems your trip was supposed to be € 27.38.
> If I look on the NS website right now for Venlo-Zwolle, it actually tells me that trip is only € 20.70, with a small disclaimer that prices can vary from what you see on the site. If you click that link it explains NS can't possibly know the correct price because part of the trip is done by another operator... in other words, they are morons
> 
> 
> 
> In conclusion I think 2 things happened here:
> 1. NS are morons and they should finally get their stinking websites in order and not provide false information (knowingly even!!)
> 2. You checked in at NS in Nijmegen, freaked out cause you saw minus 20 euros appearing on the screen, ran to some person and started screaming at them, not realizing you still had to check out at Zwolle to get part of your money back automatically at check-out :lol:
> 
> 
> The OV-chip has plenty of faults, but the faulty NS website can not be blamed on the OV-chip.



I will try to make it clearer for you.

a) I use OV-kaart since it was introduced. I did not freak out about deposit, and I certainly did not scream on anybody.

b) Now about the trip. My trip was Venlo - Nijmegen - Zwolle - Final destination. The total price should be some 23 Euro.

c) When I checked uit Veolia in Nijmegen I realized that with 13 euro already gone, the total price won't make 23 Euro, but at least 10 more. So I went to the NS counter to solve this.

d) I was sent away with telling me that I should have bought a paper ticket in Venlo for the whole trip and not use the OV-kaart. NO refund, no apology, nothing.

I would have accepted a solution, if they were able to refund the 13 euro paid to Veolia and have me bought a paper card from Venlo to my final destination. Otherwise it is to me a theft on a customer, using information asymmetry.

e) The conclusion is that when using the OV kaart on a journey that involves two operators is more expensive than if buying a paper ticket by NS for the whole trip. *Note that you can use the NS ticket for the whole journey even if using Veolia trains (after some searching on the NS page), however you can't check in at NS pole in Venlo and then use Veolia train*. I was warned to not do this in Venlo as they would charge me a 200 offense.

@Suburbanist

the balance is shown at check in and fare is shown at check out. Its just they can't show you the price on check in, beforehand. If you go to the NS ticket machine it will show you the ticket price, which is different from the actual price on this trip, due to the two operators involved.

@da_scotty

Thanks for the advice to search for the price on 9292.ov. I never looked there as I don't like the page that much. Maybe I should.


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## M-NL

Surel said:


> e) The conclusion is that when using the OV kaart on a journey that involves two operators is more expensive than if buying a paper ticket by NS for the whole trip.


That's because the current system charges you a base fare every time you check in. Officially it shouldn't do that, but the operators claim that it's very difficult for them to change. Until that moment a paper ticket is indeed cheaper. Most frequent travellers already know this.

The same problem occurs when using bus, tram and to lesser extend the subway. Everytime you change and need to check out and in again you need to pay the base fare again.


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## Surel

M-NL said:


> That's because the current system charges you a base fare every time you check in. Officially it shouldn't do that, but the operators claim that it's very difficult for them to change. Until that moment a paper ticket is indeed cheaper. Most frequent travellers already know this.
> 
> The same problem occurs when using bus, tram and to lesser extend the subway. Everytime you change and need to check out and in again you need to pay the base fare again.


What you mean by a base fare? Lump sum payment every time you check in? Well then this is not the only problem here.

The main problem with Veolia + NS is as follows.

a) There is not set km pricing for the train travel. The charges are destination based (from stop to stop). Thus much longer distances will cost you only a fraction more. When splitting the distance in two and out and in checking in the middle of the trip (which is 30 minutes condition with the OV kaart), you pay much more than for the whole trip.

Going from Utrecht to Groningen will cost you much less than going from Utrecht to Zwolle, and then from Zwolle to Groningen. This problem is not present with the paper train ticket, because you can stop in Zwolle for as long you want in the given day. With a OV-kaart, you have officially just 30 minutes (I think it is 30 minutes) to change a train in Zwolle.

b) This problem then multiplies when two operators are present. Because you are forced to check out and checked in. Furthermore, the operators have different fares for the same destination to destination trips!! And what more? The operators get different subsidies for passenger/kms

c) Further problem of the system is traveling via another station. Imagine that I would go from Venlo to Nijmegen using only NS going through Eindhoven, checking in at NS pole in Venlo and checking out at NS pole in Nijmegen... what kind of price would I be charged? Even the NS is not able to give me that price on its site.



M-NL said:


> Officially it shouldn't do that, but the operators claim that it's very difficult for them to change.


Could you elaborate on this? Do the operators something illegal?


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## Wilhem275

A big problem is keeping a difference among operators. To the customer, it should be completely transparent what operator is actually performing che task. The concept should be "A train travel from Venlo to Nijmegen" or "Taking a bus in Amsterdam", who cares if it's NS, Veolia, GVB or Connexxion... it's up to them to split their quota.

Knowing that Venlo - Nijmegen is operated by Operator X (for x km) and Nijmegen - Zwolle is operated by Operator Y (for y km) makes it pretty easy to split the income: Operator X gets (Total sum * x)/(x+y).


How does the train ticket check work with OV-C? You check in at any station, get on a train, then the train staff checks your kaart: since they don't know your destination, what should they look for?
- if you actually checked it
- if you have enough money
- what else?


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## Surel

Wilhem275 said:


> Knowing that Venlo - Nijmegen is operated by Operator X (for x km) and Nijmegen - Zwolle is operated by Operator Y (for y km) makes it pretty easy to split the income: Operator X gets (Total sum * x)/(x+y).


Exactly, but the system is not designed in this way. In Venlo, you have two poles for checking in. One is of NS and the other one of Veolia.

If you use NS train, you have to check in at the NS pole.
If you use Veolia train, you have to check in at the Veolia pole.
If you don't do it, or mistakenly check at the other pole, they will charge you fine as if you did not buy a fare at all.

Why is this? One pole should be enough right? Yeah, it should, but then if both operators had trains on the same Venlo - Nijmegen trip, how would they know which train did you chose, and how could they compete? Therefore they make two poles! But then you are forced to check out and check in when you change a operator.


The system is simply not well designed. Instead of designing the system from the top down approach. I.e. saying what do you want from it:

a) A check in electronic system
b) Quick check in and check out.
c) Transparent fares, competing operators = different prices by different operators.
d) One transparent price for a given trip (destination to destination) on a given day for each possible combination of operators.
e) The price for given trip and given combination of operators should be known beforehand.


Besides the OV-kaart has further faults and bad design, as it prevents group pricing, special pricing offers etc. I wonder whether a redesign of the system would be as costly as implementing the system in a first place. The current OV-kaart is in no way good enough replacement for the classic paper ticket.

I could imagine a quick update of the system which would not have to be that expensive. A passenger could buy a electronic ticket beforehand at the NS or other vending machines. The ticket would be clearly planned and structured and transparent pricing would be available. But yeah, what is the advantage over a paper ticket then right?

Another solution could be that when changing operators, the system would adjust the total fare for both at the second check out. I.e.

1) Having charged card at 40 euro
2) Check in at Veolia Venlo, charge of 10 euro deposit. Card at 30 euro.
3) Check out at Veolia Nijmegen, charge of fare 13 euro, deposit goes back. Card at 27 euro.
4) Check in at NS in Nijmegen, charge of 20 euro deposit. Card at 7 euro.
5) Check out at NS in destination, charge of Nijmegen - final destination fare 20 euro, deposit goes back,settlement of the whole trip - netting between NS and Veolia, overcharge of 10 euro goes back, Card at 17 euro.
6) Veolia received 13 and NS received 10. NS and Veolia net out based on the % they agreed for given journey. 


Another main advantage of any sort of similar electronic prepayed cards for its operators is that it gives the companies access to the money of their customers. A 5 million Dutch having charged their OV kaart at average 40 Euro outstanding gives the operators access to additional 200 mil Euro as a interest free loan.


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## Surel

Wilhem275 said:


> How does the train ticket check work with OV-C? You check in at any station, get on a train, then the train staff checks your kaart: since they don't know your destination, what should they look for?
> - if you actually checked it
> - if you have enough money
> - what else?


Well, they look where did you check in. I can imagine a situation where someone checks in in Den Haag, travels to Amsterdam, does not check out and would want to go back to Den Haag. When the train conductor would check his card on board of the train from Amsterdam to Den Haag and would find out that he did not checked in Amsterdam, he would be fined. It would be interesting to know the precise rulings on those situations though.


Because on the other side, the OV-C offers you some flexibility. Imagine I am traveling from Amsterdam to Utrecht and would go further on to Eindhoven. In Utrecht I realize I want to go to Den Haag instead, I can just do that without losing money, because the transaction happens just after the trip.

This of course brings further problems, because someone could travel on purpose Amsterdam, Utrecht, Den Haag, Rotterdam, etc, Eindhoven, but paying the fare for direct trip Amsterdam - Eindhoven, while making a stop in Den Haag.

Since the conductors don't leave information on the OV-C (at least I think so) the charge made in Eindhoven would not reflect through which cities you went. It just charges the shortest possible route.

This is of course the main difference between the public transport use of the OV-C and the train use. In the public transport, person checks in and out in every vehicle, therefore the whole route is precisely known. In the train, a person checks in and out just on the start and end station, while the route is not really known.

If you forced everyone to re-check at every station where a train is changed, you would make the traveling quite troublesome. Unless the poles would be either in trains, of at least several on each platform at the stations where a change of a train happens.

Also how would you differentiate a re-check from an out-check? You would have to design the system as such, that every additional check after the fist in check would conduct a recalculation of the total fare for the whole trip, if this happened in a reasonable time during one day. In fact this could work on daily bases, i.e. the total fare could be just settled with the last check out in that given day.

I.e.

1) first station A, check in
2) second station B, check-out (re-check), Settlement for route A-B
3) third station C, check-out (re-check). Refund route A-B, Settlement for route A-C.
etc. etc.

There would other problems emerge though. Imagine you would check in in station A, rode with a train to station B, then traveled with a car to a station C, and there checked again in order to travel to station D. The system could not know whether you used train the whole time or not and it would charge you the whole distance A to D instead of A-B plus C-D.


I can't see at the moment really good solution with the current design of the checking poles. They either must come inside the trains (further problems with free riding - thus better on the outer side of the trains doors), or they have to be equipped with a choice function (which would slow the whole thing down enormously).


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## mappero

^^ I have also question 
When I travel from Belgium on IC train to Eindhoven via Roosendaal and I have train ticket only to Roosendaal (issued by SNCB, NMBS) and 2 minutes for train change, how and should I check-in using my Dutch OV-chipkaart? 
There is no time to run to station building and check in? Or check my OV-kaart if my Voordeelurenabonnement card is valid/active...


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> They should have closed of the stations, just like originally planned. That way you do not need to 'reserve' 20 euros, but only the amount to the next stations and you can travel first, find out how much you need to pay and charge up you card with that amount, before you can leave the destination station (just like in Japan with it's fare adjustment machines).


But they can't close te stations. Not unless they man them again.


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## thtc

mappero said:


> ^^ I have also question
> When I travel from Belgium on IC train to Eindhoven via Roosendaal and I have train ticket only to Roosendaal (issued by SNCB, NMBS) and 2 minutes for train change, how and should I check-in using my Dutch OV-chipkaart?
> There is no time to run to station building and check in? Or check my OV-kaart if my Voordeelurenabonnement card is valid/active...


When making an international journey you are still entitled to buy a paperticket from your origine to your final destination. Your Voordeelurenabonnement or Dalvoordeel will be valid after 9:00 on the Dutch part of the journey on tickets issues by NS (HIspeed).


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## Suburbanist

^^ 16h00-18h30 is also peak time.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ 16h00-18h30 is also peak time.


That doesn't matter when you have the old Voordeelurenabonnement, only if you have one of the newer passes (such as Dal Voordeel). I'm not sure how the peak limitations apply if you have a paper ticket issued abroad.


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## Suburbanist

I think all old Voordeelurenabonnement already expired, didn't they? Did NS sell those discount passes valid for more than 1 year?


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## radamfi

Surel said:


> 1) Rail modal split of passenger transport is falling in the Netherlands since 2006 with the highest drop in 2011 when OV-C was introduced. Maybe it went up in 2012 I don't know.


I never knew this. This is deeply worrying. What is happening in NL? I thought Dutch railways were one of the most reliable in Europe, possibly only second to Switzerland. I have noticed fares have risen somewhat since I first investigated NL train in the 90s, but they are still considerably less than in the UK, yet British trains have seen a large increase in patronage in the last 10 years. For my season ticket, 50 km to London, I pay more than the cost of the most expensive 2nd class NS subscription! The most you can pay off-peak in NL with discount is €14.80. You can hardly go anywhere in the UK for that, unless you book well in advance!

Dutch trains still have tight, planned connections whereas in the UK connections are not planned and don't wait. Getting to the station in NL is much easier than the UK with bewaakte fietsstalling, OV-Fiets and buses stopping at the station (unlike the UK).

So what's the problem?


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## Suburbanist

The drop has been rather small, not really significant.

What happens is just that cars are faster for many commutes. Netherlands is a rather decentralized country, much more than UK.

Passenger numbers are also up.

What I think is happening is that the economic crisis had let much more people stuck in place, it is difficult to sell your house and relocate these days, so maybe the commuting distance is raising on average.


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## mramelet

Suburbanist said:


> The drop has been rather small, not really significant.
> 
> What happens is just that cars are faster for many commutes. Netherlands is a rather decentralized country, much more than UK.
> 
> Passenger numbers are also up.
> 
> What I think is happening is that the economic crisis had let much more people stuck in place, it is difficult to sell your house and relocate these days, so maybe the commuting distance is raising on average.


I think also that a lot of investment has been done on roads. A good example is the A2, which has been ported from 3 to 5 lanes between Utrecht and Amsterdam.
Going by car from the South to Amsterdam wasn't an option before because of traffic jams. But with this massive expansion of concrete, it has become an appealing alternative for many. There is no more traffic jams (unless accident happens) on this piece which used to be the biggest traffic jam of the Netherlands!
And same thing happens with the A4, A12, A10, ...


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## Wilhem275

K_ said:


> So if you want to travel for free on the Turin Metro you just call the control room and claim you ticket doesn't work?
> Great system...


Well, you must sound convincing, and this is not a joke. Most manned systems rely (at least partly) on the operator's judgement on borderline cases, and this already cuts off most of the wannabe freeriders...
Probably, for better proof, they may also ask you to read the S/N of your ticket. GTT uses paper tickets with a magnetic strip, so I suppose they have a database with S/N associated to the actual fare they were sold with, and usage history (all vehicles are connected to their IT center).
In a very rare case, you might enter an unmanned station with a ticket printed by a parking meter (that is a very smart thing they implemented), so they have no trace of it, but whatever.

My belief is that this system has some flaws, but still it works better and costs less than applying a more complicated one, or manning all stations, so it's overall acceptable.

Funny thing is that my problem happened 10' after I was visiting the control room, so I knew exactly who was answering to my request, and they probably recognized me from the cameras :lol:


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## K_

Wilhem275 said:


> Well, you must sound convincing, and this is not a joke. Most manned systems rely (at least partly) on the operator's judgement on borderline cases, and this already cuts off most of the wannabe freeriders...
> Probably, for better proof, they may also ask you to read the S/N of your ticket. GTT uses paper tickets with a magnetic strip, so I suppose they have a database with S/N associated to the actual fare they were sold with, and usage history (all vehicles are connected to their IT center).
> In a very rare case, you might enter an unmanned station with a ticket printed by a parking meter (that is a very smart thing they implemented), so they have no trace of it, but whatever.
> 
> My belief is that this system has some flaws, but still it works better and costs less than applying a more complicated one, or manning all stations, so it's overall acceptable.
> 
> Funny thing is that my problem happened 10' after I was visiting the control room, so I knew exactly who was answering to my request, and they probably recognized me from the cameras :lol:


This does however show the fundamental flaw with fully electronic systems. They shift the burden of proof back to the company. In Switzerland you have open access to stations, but you are yourself responsible for having the correct ticket. I wonder what NS will do with people who claim they checked in (" but the gates opened, conductor, really") but actually didn't...


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## M-NL

On the trains you must at all times be able to show a valid ticket when asked to, regardless if the stations were gated or not.


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## K_

M-NL said:


> On the trains you must at all times be able to show a valid ticket when asked to, regardless if the stations were gated or not.


But only with paper tickets can the passenger be sure to have a valid ticket. With the chipcard it becomes impossible for the passenger to verify wether he/she is in order.
As long as possible I will keep using paper tickets exactly for this reason.


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## M-NL

K_ said:


> With the chipcard it becomes impossible for the passenger to verify wether he/she is in order.


Not true. You can check the current card status at every NS-Kaartautomaat. See here (in Dutch) how to do that.


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## radamfi

M-NL said:


> Not true. You can check the current card status at every NS-Kaartautomaat. See here (in Dutch) how to do that.


I have done that just after checking in and checking out, to double check that it has worked, for extra piece of mind. However, if you are inside closed barriers you won't be able to do that.


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## aleander

K_ said:


> I wonder what NS will do with people who claim they checked in (" but the gates opened, conductor, really") but actually didn't...


I can tell you: because of how likely a situation like that already is with plain check-in (you missed a checkout => you checkout instead of checkin, also just plain errors that you miss in a hurry) people trust each other more than the system. So conductors just let people off the hook, +/- their gut feeling. Seen that quite a lot, actually. While gates would make mistakes more obvious, people would probably still each other more for a long time (or suspect that the gate didn't open because of an issue, and the person just skipped it because of that).

The automats are often placed in ridiculously inconvenient places (Sloterdijk, I'm looking at you). It's not reasonable to expect people to double check with them when they're in a hurry.


----------



## Theijs

aleander said:


> The automats are often placed in ridiculously inconvenient places (Sloterdijk, I'm looking at you).


If you Twitter to NS, they might do something about it.


----------



## Silly_Walks

M-NL said:


> Not true. You can check the current card status at every NS-Kaartautomaat. See here (in Dutch) how to do that.


Lot of good that does you when you are at the platform just in time and your train comes rolling in... they should have more of those blue readers on the platform that many metro stations have, or maybe even sell some kind of cheap, portable reader that shows you on a small one- or two-line LCD display what your current status is (i.e. what your last action was... which should be checked in at 'blabla' at xx:xx hours, etc.).


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## radamfi

Is NS considering changing to a per-km charging scheme? They are an anomaly given that most other train operators in NL use it.


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## AlexNL

There are no plans to do so.


----------



## bagus70

I would like to know a bit of history behind station which is now used as Railway Museum in Utrecht. I wonder when was the last time it was used for regular service? What was the reason behind its closure?


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> Not true. You can check the current card status at every NS-Kaartautomaat. See here (in Dutch) how to do that.


And can you check that the machine is working correctly? Can NS guarantee that the machines will never make a mistake?

My the point is that a conductor confronted with someone with a OV card that has not been checked in who states: "I've checked in, really, and the gates opened" has no other option then to believe this reason on his word... I've noticed that in London when I had problems with the Oyster Card. I was always promptly helped. But then in London there is staff at each underground station, so that someone jumping a gate would get noticed...


----------



## K_

aleander said:


> I can tell you: because of how likely a situation like that already is with plain check-in (you missed a checkout => you checkout instead of checkin, also just plain errors that you miss in a hurry) people trust each other more than the system. So conductors just let people off the hook, +/- their gut feeling. Seen that quite a lot, actually. While gates would make mistakes more obvious, people would probably still each other more for a long time (or suspect that the gate didn't open because of an issue, and the person just skipped it because of that).
> 
> The automats are often placed in ridiculously inconvenient places (Sloterdijk, I'm looking at you). It's not reasonable to expect people to double check with them when they're in a hurry.


Which is why it's pointless to gate unmanned stations. People will just jump the gates, and claim that they did check in...


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## Wilhem275

I agree with that, since we're talking about railways and not underground systems. Metro systems follow different procedures, mainly because they're meant to have no staff on trains.
Most railways services will always have conductors checking tickets; minor services can be checked by "flying squads", as we call them 

So, I really don't see the urge to switch the railway to electronic ticket + gated stations.

Most of all, electronic ticketing is a fancy and useless feature until fares are actually integrated...


----------



## da_scotty

bagus70 said:


> I would like to know a bit of history behind station which is now used as Railway Museum in Utrecht. I wonder when was the last time it was used for regular service? What was the reason behind its closure?


It is in "regular service", with a rough one-hourly service! It is however not a regular line and a seperate ticket must be bought!

The station was closed in 1939, the two main operating company's at that time merged, and the already little used Maliebaan station was swapped for the more convenient Central Station!


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## bagus70

And I've just realized that the original facade of Utrecht central station is no longer exist. 

Anyone have the image of the original Utrecht central station building? Preferably in color...


----------



## Suburbanist

NS should have put a tender for maximum speed (280 km/h). That way, ICE-3 and AGV would have been feasible competitors. The AGVs are doing just fine in Italy where they are used by ItaloTreno.

I still think a major problem is that HSA paid too much for the concession, fearing it would lose it to DB or SNCF or Veolia Rail.


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## AlexNL

NS never wanted a real high speed train as they were deemed way too expensive. An AGV .Italo costs about € 26 million euros, while a V250 costs around € 20 million.


----------



## 33Hz

^ you pays for what you get...


So what's going to happen now? For the moment it is possible to get decent IC prices again from Brussels through to NL.

And by way of comparison, Hitachi were named as preferred bidder for the UK High Speed domestic trains on HS1 (Class 395 'Javelin') in 2004. The contract was signed in 2005 and the first train was delivered in 2007. Testing was completed 6 months early and they went into service in 2009. They are dual voltage and quad signalling system trains, with both UK and French systems.

Hitachi had never designed a train for Europe before this.

I'm sure they would love to help :-D


----------



## AlexNL

What's going to happen is not sure yet: NS has been given until October 1st to work on alternatives, then the Dutch government will make a decision. They will either take any of the plans presented by NS (which mostly involve a combination of high speed trains and classic intercities) or they will keep NS to the concession.

In the worst case, the government can opt for disenfranchisement, meaning re-tendering of the HSL-Zuid. I consider the last option to be very unlikely, as the government is also the owner of NS and gets dividend from NS.

For the short term (at least until december 2014) it looks like the current situation (with intercity trains from The Hague to Brussels) is what we'll get. Starting October 7th, there will be 2 additional pairs of Thalys trains running between Amsterdam and Brussels.

The long term plans as presented by NS involve sending intercity trains over the HSL to Belgium along with intercity trains over Roosendaal. NS is planning the delivery of new intercity rolling stock which would also be used over the HSL, current estimates is entering into service from 2022.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ They shouldn't accept a further 8-year delay on running high-speed services on HSL to Belgium.

They should revoke the concession and put a new tender. One that NS should be barred from joining.


----------



## AlexNL

Fully agree with that. 

Even when the HSL is integrated into the Hoofdrailnet (Dutch Core Routes Network) NS will be paying a high price for usage of the HSL - much higher than what is considered to be realistic. Re-tendering the HSL Zuid for a fair price will provide passengers with greater benefit than the current proposed solution.

However, it will create budgettary problems at the Ministry of Infrastructure, as they've already taken the concession fee into account for their plans until 2025... :-/


----------



## Wilhem275

I think NS should pay FS to overhaul the V250 fleet and turn them into decent trains.

Trenitalia is the only major operator whose maintenance facilities are used to receive brand new sh!t from AB and rebuild it into something actually usable in real life service.
All the latest trains built from AB went immediately into maintenance and were rebuilt almost completely.
They would have no problem in handling the V250s for a fair price, and NS would end up with its trains in service within a decent time.


Ok, just kidding, but not so much...


----------



## domtoren

Hollandse Rading, between Utrecht and Hilversum



















"Gothic" arches and Sprinter regional/suburban train


----------



## 3737

A few options are:









The NS already decided that if they get the contract they buy more traxx locomotives to compensate for the loss of the V250 and also because the traxx locomotives used now are going to return to the leasing company due to the ending of the contract. source (dutch) They can later decide to also use the traxx locomotives for a national service.









A whole rebuild of the V250 fleet (If they can't get rid of the contract with AB).

A rebuild of VIRM.








After the refurbishment of the old DDAR train the first generation of VIRM will go into refurbishment. In theory it is possible to make the trains dual voltage (1,5 kV and 25 kV). Also some rumours on dutch train fora say it is even possible te improve the max speed to 200 km/u but it can't be confirmed by an official source. They also can't be used for international services but they could for example be used for the Amsterdam-Breda Shuttle.
Buy a new fleet of trains.

Some candidates:

A-train (javelin) form hitachi








Advantage:Hitachi has proved it can build new desinged reliable trains on time.
Disadvantage: The Javelin is build specific for the width of England, also the max speed of a javelin is 225 km/H If the NS decide it needs a train capable of 250 a new type of javelin needs to be designed.
Also the javelins are a lot more expensive. 29 javelins (6 cars, 240 seats) costs around 193 milion euro's (250 million pound) The V250 were build for 20,7 million euro's (8 cars, 540 seats). Of course as the Dutch would say "goedkoop is duurkoop" (If you buy something cheap in the end you will regret it)

Siemens Railjet








Advantageroved itself for the austrian railways also at the moment 7 set are build for the czech republic. Almost the same capacity as the V250. Maybe as traction it is possible to build a more powerfull type of the BR 189 (max speed 140 km/u) which is already in service in The Netherlands. 
Disadvantage: Again the max speed is 230 km/u.

Alstom Pendolino without tilting system.








Advantage:Are build at the moment in poland for PKP.The NS could decide to put an order after the once for PKP are ready. Altough in the past the pendolino's gave a lot of problems the generation used now in Italy, Spain and China are reliable machines. Max speed of 250 km/H. Almost the same capacity as the V250.
Disadvantage: can't seem to find one.

ICx








Advantage: DB already said that is time they will use the ICx for the Amsterdam-Berlin service. Due to the flexibilty the max speed can be 230 km/u or 249 km/u. Higher capacity than the V250.
Disadvantage:The train still needs to be build. Could be a big disaster like the velaro D.


----------



## Suburbanist

My fear is that they might rebuild the V250 but lower its speed to 220 or 200


----------



## Wilhem275

Nah, it doesn't have speed-related issues, it's "just" a bunch of faulty pieces poorly assembled...

It could even turn out to be a good train, after a serious rebuild process.

Of course it will not be able to run at full speed in dense snow, as happened, but I wouldn't trust any train in doing that...


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Doesn't the X2000 does just that?


----------



## Silly_Walks

Wilhem275 said:


> Nah, it doesn't have speed-related issues, it's "just" a bunch of faulty pieces poorly assembled...



Well, there were the brakes that weren't really meant for 250 km/h...




Anyway, I hope for a big overhaul of the system with IC+ 160-200 km/h services (upgraded VIRM for 160 km/h max and new 200 km/h IC's), real HS service (Thalys), and 250 km/h international IC+ service on Amsterdam-Brussels and The Hague-Brussels (like Fyra, but run with non-tilting New Pendolino's, no reservation necessary, and only slightly more expensive than the 140-160 km/h Beneluxlijn redux).


----------



## K_

The number of options to replace the V250s might even be larger. At the moment SBB has a tender running for Class II HSTs. For this tender Stadler has designed a 249 kph train as well. And Bombardier has something on the drawing board too. By the end of this year we should know who gets the tender, and maybe NS could just tack on an order for services on the HSL Zuid...


----------



## K_

3737 said:


> Also the javelins are a lot more expensive. 29 javelins (6 cars, 240 seats) costs around 193 milion euro's (250 million pound) The V250 were build for 20,7 million euro's (8 cars, 540 seats). Of course as the Dutch would say "goedkoop is duurkoop" (If you buy something cheap in the end you will regret it)


The Javelin is actually cheaper:
29 x Javelin:
250 million pounds is 295 million euros. For 9860 seats (29 * 340) comes to just a little bit short of 30000 EUR/seat.
1 x V250:
20.7 million euro, for 540 seats. Comes to 38000 EUR/seat.

Add to that the problems, and the damaged image, and you can see how expensive the AB train was. What I don't really get is that a company that pays 148 million per year for exclusive use of the HSL risked it all by trying to get its trains on the cheap...


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## AlexNL

I wouldn't count on a rebuild of the V250. Both SNCB and NS have terminated the contract and are working on legal proceedings to get as much money back as possible. Even if NS would lose all court cases (which I deem unlikely) I don't expect V250 to ever enter service again. Instead, the sets would be sent to a demolition company as happened with SM'90.


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> I don't expect V250 to ever enter service again. Instead, the sets would be sent to a demolition company as happened with SM'90.


They could be taken apart for parts...


----------



## flierfy

K_ said:


> 29 x Javelin:
> 250 million pounds is 295 million euros. For 9860 seats (29 * 340) comes to just a little bit short of 30000 EUR/seat.


That's the price of the Javelins from ten years ago. You don't really think you get the same deal again today, do you.


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## AlexNL

I don't think there are much parts that will be reusable. The major components (such as traction systems, door systems, etc.) are very train specific. It's unlikely that parts coming from a V250 will fit on a Thalys or ICE.


----------



## K_

flierfy said:


> That's the price of the Javelins from ten years ago. You don't really think you get the same deal again today, do you.


The V250 and the Javelins were ordered in the same year, so I think you can compare their prices and conclude that one is cheaper than the other...


----------



## thtc

joseph1951 said:


> ^^
> I agree. The AGV Platform is from V250 to 360 km/h . Alternatively one can buy upgraded S120, or the new Oares /Oaris...
> 
> I believe that in the short stretches of the Dutch HSL the acceleration is far more important than the V300 top speed. Alstom shouldn't have any problem in building an AGV with an acceleration of 0.9 ~1.2 m/s2 and Vmax of 300 ~320 km/h.


There is no need for an other highspeedtrain next to Thalys between Amsterdam and Brussels except for one or two trains per day to London. A train for 200-230 km/h wil do all; CD just cancelled an order for 8 additional Railjet- trains which has exact the good specs for a train between Amsterdam and Brussels.


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## Slagathor

^^ It's extremely unlikely a high speed train between Amsterdam and London would be able to compete with the airplane.


----------



## K_

Slagathor said:


> ^^ It's extremely unlikely a high speed train between Amsterdam and London would be able to compete with the airplane.


Why not?

People already travel from Amsterdam to London by train. Offering a single seat ride would certainly increase their numbers. A direct Asterdam - London train would take less then 4 hours. That is competitive with air travel.


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## Slagathor

There are very frequent connections between London City airport and Schiphol / RTH-THE airport. The last one in particular is a very good alternative for the train. I've taken the train to London once, but I much prefer the airplane. It's simply faster and the prices are not that different.


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## Sunfuns

At only a bit under 4 hours train wouldn't dominate the market, but surely it would have a solid share assuming prices are similar and schedule convenient. There are plenty of people who are not that wild about flying unless they have to.


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## Slagathor

^^ I'm not sure you can run a train by targeting the demographic that feels a bit iffy about flying. Trains from Holland to London will always be problematic because of simple geography: you have to take a heck of a curve through Belgium and France to get there. 

The fastest trains are now faster than ferries, but they'll never be faster than planes on this particular connection. If prices are equal, the plane will continue to dominate the market. Considering the costs of running high speed trains, one wonders if anyone will volunteer to exploit this service in the future. I think Deutsche Bahn had plans but I doubt they could make it work.


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## AlexNL

A non-stop service will be pointless, indeed. However, if adding stops in Brussels and maybe Antwerp the target market will be bigger which results in making the service more successful.

It's possible that Eurostar is going to do a 1-on-1 replacement of a Brussels service by extending it to Amsterdam. The current Eurostar rolling stock offers seats to 750 passengers, it's rare that those are all full. The new e320 will offer 900 seats, so there would be enough capacity for passengers from the Netherlands ánd Belgium.


----------



## Sunfuns

Slagathor said:


> ^^ I'm not sure you can run a train by targeting the demographic that feels a bit iffy about flying. Trains from Holland to London will always be problematic because of simple geography: you have to take a heck of a curve through Belgium and France to get there.
> 
> The fastest trains are now faster than ferries, but they'll never be faster than planes on this particular connection. If prices are equal, the plane will continue to dominate the market. Considering the costs of running high speed trains, one wonders if anyone will volunteer to exploit this service in the future. I think Deutsche Bahn had plans but I doubt they could make it work.


It works elsewhere with similar distances, airline competition and travel time so not sure why you say it would definitely fail in Holland. Zurich-Paris for example have 6 trains per day and travel time about 4 h, probably about as many flight as well. Basel-Paris route (1 h less) is train dominated (also 4 flights/day), not sure about Zurich. Perhaps London-Amsterdam train takes only 30% of the market, but even that could provide a good profit for someone. 

I'm not afraid of flying, but I prefer a train because of baggage restrictions in airplanes. With a train I can travel light and still take with me say a bottle of wine or a pocket knife.


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## Sunfuns

AlexNL said:


> A non-stop service will be pointless, indeed. However, if adding stops in Brussels and maybe Antwerp the target market will be bigger which results in making the service more successful.
> 
> It's possible that Eurostar is going to do a 1-on-1 replacement of a Brussels service by extending it to Amsterdam. The current Eurostar rolling stock offers seats to 750 passengers, it's rare that those are all full. The new e320 will offer 900 seats, so there would be enough capacity for passengers from the Netherlands ánd Belgium.


Isn't Brussels-London route dominated by the train? Airlines could compete there only by price as there is no way one could travel the distance faster that way (2 h). Also is Eurostar train from Brussels to London stopping somewhere else in France/England before reaching London?


----------



## AlexNL

Sunfuns said:


> Isn't Brussels-London route dominated by the train? Airlines could compete there only by price as there is no way one could travel the distance faster that way (2 h).


I believe most passengers have been taken from airlines between Paris and London. Brussels - London is busy too, but I think there is enough spare capacity to fill.

A large number of people from the Netherlands who prefer the train already use Eurostar, so those seats are already accounted for in today's passenger numbers. I think the additional capacity offered by the e320 train sets is enough to cope with the increased demand generated by direct Amsterdam - London services, and that's why I don't expect an increase in the amount of services between Brussels and London offered by Eurostar.

If Eurostar would use the e320 for this, it could re-use the TGV-TMST fleet to provide services to other destinations in France, or to add an extra service to/from Brussels if the Amsterdam services are causing capacity issues along the route.


> Also is Eurostar train from Brussels to London stopping somewhere else in France/England before reaching London?


Yes, all Eurostar trains make at least 1 intermediate stop between Brussels and Paris. See the timetable:


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> A non-stop service will be pointless, indeed. However, if adding stops in Brussels and maybe Antwerp the target market will be bigger which results in making the service more successful.


The important question is wether this service will also be permitted to transport Amsterdam - Brussel or Amsterdam - Antwerpen passengers. That will make a big difference when it comes to profitability.


----------



## Sunfuns

Is Eurostar allowed to transport Brussels-Lille or Brussels-Calais passengers?


----------



## Slagathor

Sunfuns said:


> It works elsewhere with similar distances,


I hear that all the time, but I don't think you can compare it to continental services. 

Just look at the map: a plane can get from Rotterdam - The Hague Airport to London City Airport in 45 or 50 minutes: a straight line across the North Sea. Rotterdam - The Hague Airport also has no waiting times worth mentioning: Jan recently cycled up to the terminal building and found he could get from his front door to the airplane seat in less than an hour.

Trains, meanwhile, have to take a necessary but lengthy detour through Belgium and France. 

That's why you can't compare Amsterdam/Rotterdam - London to Paris - Zurich. Because of geography.


----------



## Sunfuns

Slagathor said:


> I hear that all the time, but I don't think you can compare it to continental services.
> 
> Just look at the map: a plane can get from Rotterdam - The Hague Airport to London City Airport in 45 or 50 minutes: a straight line across the North Sea. Rotterdam - The Hague Airport also has no waiting times worth mentioning: Jan recently cycled up to the terminal building and found he could get from his front door to the airplane seat in less than an hour.
> 
> Trains, meanwhile, have to take a necessary but lengthy detour through Belgium and France.
> 
> That's why you can't compare Amsterdam/Rotterdam - London to Paris - Zurich. Because of geography.


Why would you care how long a detour train makes geographically if it still arrives in 3.5 h? Travel time including getting to and from airport on time is the only relevant measurement. Prices of course as well, but that's a different discussion. 

I agree that you could make this journey faster with a plane, under optimal conditions at least, however the difference is sufficiently small (ca 1 h)that it wouldn't completely shut out a train service.


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## Slagathor

It wasn't anywhere near 3.5 hours when I took the train to London. More like 4.5. The point is you can't go any quicker than that because of the geographic detour. So if you can't go closer to airplane travel _times_, you have to make the difference in travel _fares_. Which isn't happening.


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## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Why would you care how long a detour train makes geographically if it still arrives in 3.5 h? Travel time including getting to and from airport on time is the only relevant measurement. Prices of course as well, but that's a different discussion.


It means on-air flight time is shorter 

I've flown London City - Rotterdam, flight stays on air less than 34 minutes I think.


----------



## AlexNL

Sunfuns said:


> Is Eurostar allowed to transport Brussels-Lille or Brussels-Calais passengers?


They did so in the past, people could get on at Brussels and get off at Lille, without ever seeing passport control as this is not permitted under Schengen. Some people used this possibility to get to London, it's called the Lille loophole. 

I think Eurostar stopped selling tickets from Brussels to Lille, there are plenty of other trains to get you there.


----------



## Sunfuns

Slagathor said:


> It wasn't anywhere near 3.5 hours when I took the train to London. More like 4.5. The point is you can't go any quicker than that because of the geographic detour. So if you can't go closer to airplane travel _times_, you have to make the difference in travel _fares_. Which isn't happening.


I checked and the combined Thalys+Eurostar time is 3 h 50 min. To be honest I thought Amsterdam-Brussels leg is faster than it actually is when I wrote my previous post. There must be a lot of restrictions and non-high speed sections for these 200 km to take close to 2 h. Still 4 h (assuming 10 min stop in Brussels Midi) while a bit marginal is also not completely out of train territory.


----------



## AlexNL

Of the 200 km mentioned in your post, only 130 km is truly high-speed. There are some limiting sections:

Amsterdam - Schiphol takes 15 minutes, because that route is oversaturated. From the HSL to Rotterdam takes nearly 5 minutes because of a sharp bend and, again, some oversaturation. From Rotterdam to the HSL takes approx. 8 minutes (the HSL starts at Barendrecht). 

From Barendrecht to Antwerpen-Luchtbal is a real high speed line, you're there in a jiffy. But from Antwerp to Brussels, trains have to go over busy classical lines with a Vmax of 160 km/h... this easily takes 40 minutes.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Hence my idea of a high-speed underground line between Ams. Centraal and Schiphol, they could built it 4 tracks so that the other 2 are a subway (like they have between Hollendrecht and Amstel).


----------



## Proterra

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Hence my idea of a high-speed underground line between Ams. Centraal and Schiphol, they could built it 4 tracks so that the other 2 are a subway (like they have between Hollendrecht and Amstel).


Building an underground HSR from Amsterdam Central Station to their airport is ridiculously cost prohibitive considering the tiny amount of time gained with such a connection and the fact that it needs to be deep underground considering that that city has a large collection of monumental buildings all built on a peat bog. The way how they managed to screw up their latest cross-city subway line in a fashion which would make Polish infrastructure ventures seem timely and efficient underlines this even more...

I honestly think the Dutch have better ways to spend their budget than to waste it on getting 2,000 suits a day 3 minutes faster to the airport at a price tag of probably 3 to 4 billion EUR. In my opinion a better return on investment could be had by improving the existing infrastructure and possibly - if they want to splurge - by extending their newest disaster of a subway line - above ground - to the airport.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Expanding the Noordzuidlijn to Schiphol is good policy, but it will not be very effective for travel between Amsterdam Centraal and Schiphol (though very effictive for serving the Zuidas and Amstelveen).

Schiphol needs a larger station as well..


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## Wilhem275

HSLs will always be "slowed down" when approaching nodes, because the layout must adapt to the city, usually by sharing tracks with existing lines.

You can build a dedicated new infrastructure, but it will cost a lot of money and will be used just by a few specialized trains.

Actually Amsterdam and Rotterdam have well designed urban railways, they only need some specific improvement, eg: making urban stretches usable at 160+ km/h, and most of all improving capacity.
Some sharp bends are not a problem: when approaching the cities, trains will be already slowing down, you wouldn't gain great times even with a 300 km/h track straight under Amsterdam CS...

Let's face it: if you have two stops is such a short distance, you will never ever have "HSR times". To have great times from Amsterdam CS you should avoid Schipol... which is nonsense for the system.

Are there any long term plans for new tracks at Schipol and a new tube for Rotterdam's tunnel?


----------



## Suburbanist

Something I never understood is why haven't they plugged the railway that comes from south of the Maas into what is present-day Randstad Rail "E", instead of putting two very tight curves around Rotterdam Centraal. Especially considering the city was destroyed in WW2, they could have done that and saved a couple km...

http://goo.gl/maps/SzPDc


----------



## 3737

In 1945 the connection Rotterdam-Utrecht didn't exist as we know it today. 
Before WW2 there were 3 different connections with 3 different main stations which were build by 3 different companies.
The HIJSM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Delftse Poort-Dordrecht (Red)
The ZHESM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Hofplein (Green).
The NRS build Utrecht-Rotterdam Maas (Blue)
In 1899 the ceintuurbaan (purple) was build by the HIJSM to connect Rotterdam Delftse poort and Rotterdam Maas. Also a connection was made with the ZHESM/green line.

After the bombardment in 1940, Rotterdam Maas and Rotterdam Hofplein were totally destroyed. Rotterdam Delftse poort was damaged but could still be used. In 1942 they decided to connect Utrecht via Rotterdam Delftse poort by building the brown line. After completion they demollished the blue part and the east side of the ceintuurbaan. After the war station Rotterdam hofplijn was rebuild and Rotterdam Delftse Poort was demolished to make place for Rotterdam CS as the new main station of Rotterdam. Since the present time the ZHESM line has been converted to a metro line and a new metro tunnel has been build (black).Rotterdam Hofplijn is now decommissioned, also the connection with the ceintuurbaan is removed due to the new metrotunnel which connects at the same point as the old connection.

Something I did never understand was why they never build something like the yellow line after the bombardment which would take a lot shorter to build and the trains don't have to drive around Rotterdam using the ceintuurbaan. Also due to the bombardment they didn't have to demolish houses to build a yellow line which was a problem in 1899.

@suburbanist did you mean something like the light green line I draw ?


----------



## LtBk

Slightly off-topic, but is there a plan to introduce tram, possible metro services in other Dutch cities like Eindhoven and Utrecht?


----------



## AlexNL

There are no plans for that.

Groningen had plans for a tram, but city council killed the plans after much doubting.


----------



## Slagathor

LtBk said:


> Slightly off-topic, but is there a plan to introduce tram, possible metro services in other Dutch cities like Eindhoven and Utrecht?


Those towns aren't really big enough for that to be economically feasible. Even in The Hague, the HTM is just scraping by.


----------



## Silly_Walks

LtBk said:


> Slightly off-topic, but is there a plan to introduce tram, possible metro services in other Dutch cities like Eindhoven and Utrecht?


Yes, there are, for Utrecht. Utrecht already has LRT, and they will expand their LRT to reach the University Campus area.

Once this is done, there are already some ideas of maybe also replacing a busline with a tram/LRT in the west/center of the city.


----------



## Suburbanist

3737 said:


> In 1945 the connection Rotterdam-Utrecht didn't exist as we know it today.
> Before WW2 there were 3 different connections with 3 different main stations which were build by 3 different companies.
> The HIJSM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Delftse Poort-Dordrecht (Red)
> The ZHESM build The Hague HS-Rotterdam Hofplein (Green).
> The NRS build Utrecht-Rotterdam Maas (Blue)
> In 1899 the ceintuurbaan (purple) was build by the HIJSM to connect Rotterdam Delftse poort and Rotterdam Maas. Also a connection was made with the ZHESM/green line.
> 
> After the bombardment in 1940, Rotterdam Maas and Rotterdam Hofplein were totally destroyed. Rotterdam Delftse poort was damaged but could still be used. In 1942 they decided to connect Utrecht via Rotterdam Delftse poort by building the brown line. After completion they demollished the blue part and the east side of the ceintuurbaan. After the war station Rotterdam hofplijn was rebuild and Rotterdam Delftse Poort was demolished to make place for Rotterdam CS as the new main station of Rotterdam. Since the present time the ZHESM line has been converted to a metro line and a new metro tunnel has been build (black).Rotterdam Hofplijn is now decommissioned, also the connection with the ceintuurbaan is removed due to the new metrotunnel which connects at the same point as the old connection.
> 
> Something I did never understand was why they never build something like the yellow line after the bombardment which would take a lot shorter to build and the trains don't have to drive around Rotterdam using the ceintuurbaan. Also due to the bombardment they didn't have to demolish houses to build a yellow line which was a problem in 1899.
> 
> @suburbanist did you mean something like the light green line I draw ?


Yes, maybe they could have made Hofplein the major Rotterdam station in 2 levels (Utrecht - sChiedam and Rdam Zuid - Den Haag)


----------



## LtBk

Slagathor said:


> Those towns aren't really big enough for that to be economically feasible. Even in The Hague, the HTM is just scraping by.


Both cities I mentioned have over 200,000 people in the central city alone. That's good for enough tram service IMO. And what do you mean by economic feasibility?


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## 3737

^^
The line Rotterdam Delftse poort-Dordrecht did cut trough the first and second Rotterdam hofplijn station but they never build a platform.








link
Also in my opinion they did place Rotterdam CS at a real poor place.
I would have build the new Rotterdam CS around the same place as Rotterdam Blaak. I would scrap Rotterdam Hofplijn and Rotterdam Maas and connect them with the new station. If the bend with Rotterdam maas would have been to sharp, they could have made a new connection with the ceintuurbaan, build the brown line like the drawing in my other post and scrapping the west part of the ceintuurbaan and blue line.They could have used Rotterdam Delftse poort as a smaller station like Rotterdam blaak is now.









When making these images I also noticed something different. In the Netherlands we only have 1 main terminus (The Hague CS) and most cities only uses 1 station as the main station where as in other big cities in Europe they al uses a lot more. For example Londonaddington,Kings cross,Victoria, St. Pancras,Waterloo etc. When looking at the development of the rail infrastructure of the Netherlands they first build the terminus stations on other sides of the city. Later on connected them with a ring like railway around the city. And as last demolished the old terminus station and building new stations or transformed the terminus stations into normal stations always using 1 station as the main station.


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## flierfy

3737 said:


> When making these images I also noticed something different. In the Netherlands we only have 1 main terminus (The Hague CS) and most cities only uses 1 station as the main station where as in other big cities in Europe they al uses a lot more.


That is not too dissimilar to railway networks in adjacent countries. Paris is the only city in continental Europe I can think of which preserved its network structure of several termini. Every other city merged smaller stations into big ones and often replaced termini with through stations in this process. Vienna is currently the latest example for this development.


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## Slagathor

LtBk said:


> Both cities I mentioned have over 200,000 people in the central city alone. That's good for enough tram service IMO. And what do you mean by economic feasibility?


Sorry, but 200.000 people isn't nearly enough for a significant tram network. It's miles away from being subway-worthy.

First of all, the Dutch soil isn't very suitable for digging tunnels so any subway system will be hugely expensive in construction costs (just look at the _Noord-Zuid lijn_ in Amsterdam). There's no way a town of just 200.000 people could cough up that kind of money or expect to earn it back through ticket fares. Even Amsterdam, with financial support of the national government, is almost going bankrupt on digging a single subway line of just 8 stops!

Trams are a little easier, but putting all the rails down is still a massive job. In Groningen, it proved to be plainly too expensive (its relatively limited network would cost 450 million euro to construct).

The third largest city in the country, The Hague, has just over 500.000 inhabitants and 1.3 million in the metropolitan area. And it can't afford a subway. It keeps its tram network because the tracks were already there from over 100 years ago, but the tram company HTM hasn't actually made a profit in living memory. That's not surprising: public transportation is very rarely profitable except in the world's megacities. 

There's a reason Utrecht's sneltram never ventures into the historic city center and instead rides around suburban areas where land is cheaper. Nobody has the money to build an old-fashioned tram system in Utrecht, let alone a subway.


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## radamfi

Isn't the recently built tram tunnel under The Hague quite a serious bit of tunnelling?!

In terms of profitability, in the UK, recent tram systems like Manchester and West Midlands have to charge high enough fares so that they cover their operating costs, although the construction costs are not recovered. The UK, outside London and Northern Ireland, has bus deregulation. This means that the vast majority of buses are run for profit, and bus companies charge high enough fares to enable them to be profitable. They do get a small amount of subsidy per mile (in the old days it was to pay for the fuel tax but it no longer covers that) and they also get money to carry old and disabled people for free. Bus deregulation would not be possible in the Netherlands because so many people use cycles for trips where they would use buses in the UK.


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## radamfi

The Netherlands has a lot of very good busway systems, like Haarlem to Amsterdam ZO, several in Utrecht, the whole of Almere, Rotterdam Rodenrijs to Zoetermeer etc. which are arguably almost as good as having trams and a lot cheaper.


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## mramelet

radamfi said:


> The Netherlands has a lot of very good busway systems, like Haarlem to Amsterdam ZO, several in Utrecht, the whole of Almere, Rotterdam Rodenrijs to Zoetermeer etc. which are arguably almost as good as having trams and a lot cheaper.


Agree.
In most cases, these bus are much more economical to run than trams. So unless there is a need for additional capacity, it's just as fast, and cheaper.
Almere is an excellent example. Fast, frequent, reliable.

As a French man, I followed the development of the French tram network, which was absolutely amazing in the last ten years. It has become a kind of hype for each city to have its tram. In most cases, it is absolutely ridiculous, and a bus would have perfectly fit in. 
I can't remember the exact figures, but it should be quite simple to determine what is needed :
< 30,000 users per day : bus
30,000<100,000 : tram
100,000<400,000 : metro
> 400,000 : train (like RER in Paris).

There are not that many lines which will have more than 30,000 users a day in the Netherlands. In Utrecht, where I live, which is the biggest city without a proper tram network, I see a few maybe, where triple bus are not even enough today.


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## Coccodrillo

Slagathor said:


> Sorry, but 200.000 people isn't nearly enough for a significant tram network.


They are, for French standards.



Slagathor said:


> Nobody has the money to build an old-fashioned tram system in Utrecht, let alone a subway.


But an extension is under construction: http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/nl/utr/utrecht.htm


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## Slagathor

radamfi said:


> Isn't the recently built tram tunnel under The Hague quite a serious bit of tunnelling?!


The construction of which took 5 years longer than expected and ended up costing € 204.000,- per _meter_. The city is still traumatized.



Coccodrillo said:


> They are, for French standards.


Good for them. 



> But an extension is under construction: http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/nl/utr/utrecht.htm


Yeah, an above-ground extension in an area that is not exactly short on space:


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## radamfi

The new tram line in Utrecht will replace the very frequent extra long articulated buses (3 section) on the particularly busy route to the hospital and university.

The current bus timetable is ridiculously frequent even in the off peak hours.
http://gvu.nl/gvulijndetails.aspx?systeemlijnnummer=U012&richting=1

It is replaced by express buses in peak times.
http://gvu.nl/gvulijndetails.aspx?systeemlijnnummer=U062&richting=1

There is also a route 11 which is almost as frequent, going a different way to the university.

So I can certainly see how a tram would be appropriate for this level of demand.


----------



## MattN

I'm not sure where you get the idea from that it can't be checked whether people have 'the correct travel entitlement'? Controleurs can check it, and in Rotterdam at least they very frequently do. Fare evasion is also supposed to have reduced massively (I think they estimate it at about 75%?). 

I recognise that there are ways in which the Chipkaart has made things more difficult and/or expensive, especially for foreign tourists, but I don't think that the claims you made here stack up.


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## Silly_Walks

MattN said:


> I'm not sure where you get the idea from that it can't be checked whether people have 'the correct travel entitlement'? *Controleurs can check it*


Yes,they can, but by then it's too late.


It should be easier for travellers to double-check whether they have checked-in properly.

For example, I once went through the gates at a metro station. The gates were already open because I went right behind someone else. I didn't hear a beep, and the text that appeared on the little screen could just as well have been from the guy before me. I had NO idea whether I was checked in. There happened to be 'controleurs' at the gates that day, so I asked one how I could check if I had already checked in. HE had to let me out of the gates (if I hadn't checked in, but used my own OV-chipcard to go out through the gates, it would have cost me 4 euros), so I could use the blue device to see my status. Then the guy had to let me back in (double check-in would also be 4 euros).

This is WAY to complicated.


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## Wilhem275

I can't believe controleurs don't have a device for reading the actual state of the chippy.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Wilhem275 said:


> I can't believe controleurs don't have a device for reading the actual state of the chippy.


Normal controleurs do, but not those guys standing at the gates.


And still, you should be able to check your status a LOT more easily AFTER the gates, even if no controleur is nearby.


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## K_

MattN said:


> I'm not sure where you get the idea from that it can't be checked whether people have 'the correct travel entitlement'? Controleurs can check it, and in Rotterdam at least they very frequently do. Fare evasion is also supposed to have reduced massively (I think they estimate it at about 75%?). I recognise that there are ways in which the Chipkaart has made things more difficult and/or expensive, especially for foreign tourists, but I don't think that the claims you made here stack up.


The thing is that passengers themselves can't can't check if they have the right ticket, wether they're in order. 

You don't need a sophisticated system to fight fare evasion. Switzerland has open stations (even at the Lausanne metro), no ticket sales on board most busses and trams, and no conductors on local trains. Fare evasion however is negligible. 
You achieve this by treating your customers as adults, and not as children who can't be trusted...


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## radamfi

K_ said:


> Fare evasion however is negligible.


Any statistics on Swiss fare evasion? SBB has in recent years expanded the penalty fare system to cover the whole country with a 90 CHF fine for boarding without a ticket. That suggests they have been having issues with zwartrijders themselves.

http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-servic...gen-fahrausweis/allgemeine-informationen.html

The Netherlands used to work on the 'honour' system for buses. You used to stamp your strippenkaarten yourself. When I first visited NL in the early 90s this surprised me, coming from the UK where you have always had to pay the driver or show your ticket to the driver. When I visited again in the late 90s it was all different. The driver stamped your strippenkaart. Presumably the Dutch bus companies realised they were losing a lot of money.


----------



## Road_UK

radamfi said:


> Any statistics on Swiss fare evasion? SBB has in recent years expanded the penalty fare system to cover the whole country with a 90 CHF fine for boarding without a ticket. That suggests they have been having issues with zwartrijders themselves.
> 
> http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-services/services/sbb-customer-service/reisen-ohne-gueltigen-fahrausweis/allgemeine-informationen.html
> 
> The Netherlands used to work on the 'honour' system for buses. You used to stamp your strippenkaarten yourself. When I first visited NL in the early 90s this surprised me, coming from the UK where you have always had to pay the driver or show your ticket to the driver. When I visited again in the late 90s it was all different. The driver stamped your strippenkaart. Presumably the Dutch bus companies realised they were losing a lot of money.


Yes, but that was also the time when the entire Dutch public transport system was working under the assumption of good faith. You were able to travel pretty much anywhere without a valid ticket on trams and busses. If ticket inspectors did come, it was very little trouble to give up a false name. Obviously these times are now gone after they've finally realised that the system of good faith has failed.


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## K_

radamfi said:


> Any statistics on Swiss fare evasion? SBB has in recent years expanded the penalty fare system to cover the whole country with a 90 CHF fine for boarding without a ticket. That suggests they have been having issues with zwartrijders themselves.


SBB estimate fare evasion at about 1.4%. That is quite low. The SBB has indeed recently started applying the penalty fare system to the whole network, and not just local trains as previously. This to better be able to combat notorious fare evaders.




> The Netherlands used to work on the 'honour' system for buses. You used to stamp your strippenkaarten yourself. When I first visited NL in the early 90s this surprised me, coming from the UK where you have always had to pay the driver or show your ticket to the driver. When I visited again in the late 90s it was all different. The driver stamped your strippenkaart. Presumably the Dutch bus companies realised they were losing a lot of money.


The problem is that this increases dwell times for buses, and thus increases travel time and reduces time table stability. Having to get your pass out, or paying at every transfer also increases the "friction" in the system, making it less attractive. In the Netherlands it's all part of a regrettable tendency to punish the group for the misbehaviour of some individuals.

Here in Switzerland I commute to the office every day by public transit, and also to four different other locations, and have travel times that are comparable to a car. 
In the train I can read however.
One of the reason why door-to-door transit times are so short is that I can really plan with 3 minute bus-train-bus transfers. This only works reliably in a system that allows boarding at all doors, and does not require any ticket inspection, or checking in or out upon boarding.


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## K_

Road_UK said:


> Yes, but that was also the time when the entire Dutch public transport system was working under the assumption of good faith. You were able to travel pretty much anywhere without a valid ticket on trams and busses. *If ticket inspectors did come, it was very little trouble to give up a false name*. Obviously these times are now gone after they've finally realised that the system of good faith has failed.


And this central "bug", has not been solved with the OV chipcard. You can still give up a false name...

The "honor system" can (and does) work if some conditions are met.
- Fare integration, making monthly or yearly passes attractive. For example the integrated ZVV system around Zürich, or the "GA". In Switzerland, as soon as you commute from one of the major cities to another one the most cost effective transit pass is the "General Abo" (GA) which basically gives you unlimited travel on the whole PT network, for about 3000 euro a year. About half a million people have one in Switzerland (as do I...), which means that most regular PT users have one...
- High fines. And on the third offense you will see a day in court. And if you can't show a valid official photo-ID when checked the PT police will hand you over to the regular police, which won't let you go until they've established your real identity. 

In Switzerland this leads to very low rates of fare evasion. They only need to make sure that PT users face a chance of one check every month to make sure fare evasion doesn't pay. 

Trying to solve the problem of people abusing the honor system by abolishing it is in my opinion not a good thing. It reduces the appeal of public transit. We are seeing this in the Netherlands...


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## MattN

As far as I am aware you have to show a valid ID in the Netherlands as well


----------



## Road_UK

MattN said:


> As far as I am aware you have to show a valid ID in the Netherlands as well


Yes you do. It hasn't always been like that. Back in the 90s kids would keep a second school diary on them with a fake name and address written in it. That was their ticket...


----------



## radamfi

K_ said:


> Trying to solve the problem of people abusing the honor system by abolishing it is in my opinion not a good thing. It reduces the appeal of public transit. We are seeing this in the Netherlands...


I agree that speedy boarding is important. However, is it fair to say that it the Netherlands has abandoned this by adopting the OV-Chipkaart? Poortjes for metro and, possibly in the future, national rail, doesn't really slow you down that much. Trams and some bendy buses still allow multi-door boarding and alighting. Even on a normal bus, people can pretty much touch in without slowing down their walk onto the bus.


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## AlexNL

radamfi said:


> Even on a normal bus, people can pretty much touch in without slowing down their walk onto the bus.


Depends: some bus operators (such as Veolia) have really slow readers. You'll need to hold your card in front of the reader for 4 seconds before it reacts to it. Other operators such as HTMbuzz and GVB have speedy readers where touching is enough.


----------



## radamfi

AlexNL said:


> Depends: some bus operators (such as Veolia) have really slow readers. You'll need to hold your card in front of the reader for 4 seconds before it reacts to it. Other operators such as HTMbuzz and GVB have speedy readers where touching is enough.


Now that is silly. Why don't they get them replaced? I've travelled on GVB, RET, HTM and Connexxion buses so I've been 'lucky' in not using Veolia. I was in Tilburg bus station recently and saw lots of Veolia buses but didn't check whether the boarding time was slow.

If the Dutch want to save money, then why do they still buy high standard German buses like MANs and Mercedes? They could buy cheap rubbish like the ADL Enviro range that we endure in the UK.


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## Slagathor

AlexNL said:


> Depends: some bus operators (such as Veolia) have really slow readers. You'll need to hold your card in front of the reader for 4 seconds before it reacts to it. Other operators such as HTMbuzz and GVB have speedy readers where touching is enough.


This. God I hate the Veolia readers.


----------



## radamfi

Do the Veolia trains in Limburg have the similar bad card readers?

I suppose it could be worse. In many places in the UK you have to place the card on top of the ticket machine, wait until it beeps then take it off again. Outside London, smartcards are primarily used by old people for their free travel so they have great difficulty putting the card in the right place, wasting a lot of time.


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## AlexNL

radamfi said:


> Now that is silly. Why don't they get them replaced?


These devices were bought a couple of years ago (when the OV-chipkaart was introduced) and were probably the result of a competitive tender. Replacing them means making a lot of costs with little time gained.



> I've travelled on GVB, RET, HTM and Connexxion buses so I've been 'lucky' in not using Veolia. I was in Tilburg bus station recently and saw lots of Veolia buses but didn't check whether the boarding time was slow.


It definitely slows down the boarding process compared to other operators that have faster readers, but times are comparable to the old way: presenting your "strippenkaart" to the driver and telling him where you want to go to so he can place the stamp in the right square.


> If the Dutch want to save money, then why do they still buy high standard German buses like MANs and Mercedes? They could buy cheap rubbish like the ADL Enviro range that we endure in the UK.


Public transport authorities tend to set high demands for the vehicles, and it's becoming more and more the norm that the operator of the next term takes over the vehicles if they're still fit-for-purpose. Cheaper buses that are ready for demolition at the end of a concession period are considered to be uneconomical and "not green".



Slagathor said:


> This. God I hate the Veolia readers.


Me too. The readers are slow and have a horrible display that shows little information. The good thing about the readers is that they show the name of the stop the system assumes the vehicle is at, so you can tell if there's an error with regards to vehicle positioning.



radamfi said:


> Do the Veolia trains in Limburg have the similar bad card readers?












Veolia, Arriva and Syntus have the same god-awful readers (the one on the left). Those readers are slow, have the display at an awkward angle, and the sounds ('beep') are barely audible. 

The readers on the right (used by NS and Connexxion) are much better: they're very fast: tapping your card against the "Kaart hier" sticker (which is a WTF in itself) is enough. The display provides more information, and there's a clear distinction between check-in (one long beep), check-out (two short beeps) and an error (three beeps in an alternating tone).


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> It definitely slows down the boarding process compared to other operators that have faster readers, but times are comparable to the old way: presenting your "strippenkaart" to the driver and telling him where you want to go to so he can place the stamp in the right square.


But I suppose that compared to "everybody just boards through any door, and takes a seat immediately, without bothering even getting your ticket/pass out of your purse" it is still slower...


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## radamfi

Is open boarding on buses acceptable to the Dutch people? In the UK, as I said before, you have always had to pay the driver or show the ticket to the driver. Well, since conductors stopped being used. About 10 years ago, London introduced bendy buses for the first time, combined with the ability to board or alight from any door. London's buses were starting to get very crowded after strong passenger growth so bendy buses and open boarding was seen to be necessary for capacity reasons. 

This was widely criticised for encouraging fare evasion, even though evasion was probably not that high. So the next (current) mayor vowed to scrap these buses at great expense. Fare evasion wasn't the only reason for the scrapping, but it was one of the factors. He has since introduced a new kind of open boarding bus ("New Bus for London") where you can board and alight at any door, but you must touch the Oyster card when boarding.

I suspect that smartcards boost patronage because you are not so aware of how much you are spending, especially if you top up your card automatically.


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## Slagathor

Open boarding is very much frowned upon and discouraged, I don't even know of any places where they allow it but of course I haven't been to every corner of the country.


----------



## radamfi

AlexNL said:


> In Limburg, Veolia started selling paper tickets again because they saw a huge decline in ridership when they went "chipkaart only".


I just had a look at their paper tickets and they are not cheap. €2.50 for city and €4 for longer distance buses. Most people travelling shorter distances would be better off with an OV-Chipkaart. Some longer distance trips would be cheaper with the €4 paper ticket.

http://www.veolia-transport.nl/limburg/kaarten-en-tarieven/buskaarten/ritkaarten/index.html


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## Suburbanist

One would need to travel a lot to benefit from these prices. Moreover, different cities/provinces are introducing discount plans for urban local transportation as well...


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## radamfi

The instaptarief is €0.86. The kilometertarief for Zuid-Limburg is €0.162/km and for the rest of Limburg it is €0.144. That means you need to travel 10.12 km in Zuid-Limburg (11.39 km in Noord and Midden) to be worth getting the €2.50 ticket and 19.38 km in Zuid-Limburg (21.81 km in Noord and Midden) for the €4 ticket.


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## radamfi

The 2-Eurokaartje in Groningen/Drenthe is a bit better value with it being cheaper if the distance travelled is 7.55 km.

On the Arriva service from Groningen to Emmeloord, with a connection to Lelystad, the OV-Chipkaart fare is €22.88, whereas you can get a day return for €15 after 9 am Monday to Friday, anytime weekends and weekdays in July and August.


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## Silly_Walks

K_ said:


> So you find getting your pass out several times a day less cumbersome than getting it out a few time per year?


A few times a year wouldn't deter 'zwartrijders'.


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> I'm also in favor of outlawing any single paper ticket within Netherlands, for whatever reason. If tickets are to be sold by drivers, they should be like those disposable chipkaarts sold by GVB. No passenger transaction should happen without a OV-Chipkaart.


For single use tickets such as the ones sold on board on a bus, fitting those things with an RFID tag is pointless. The RFID tag would add significant charges to the price of a ticket while the ticket itself will be disposed of quickly after leaving the bus.

Only Amsterdam and Rotterdam sell single use tickets with integrated RFID chips, but that's because of the gated subway stations.


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## Proterra

Suburbanist said:


> You can do that to some operators, I think.
> 
> I'm also in favor of outlawing any single paper ticket within Netherlands, for whatever reason. If tickets are to be sold by drivers, they should be like those disposable chipkaarts sold by GVB. No passenger transaction should happen without a OV-Chipkaart.


You're criminally insane. OV-Chipkaart in the Netherlands? The system where they keep track of your every move and store it in a database for two years?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of innovation, but the Netherlands must be the most effed-up country in Europe when it comes down to government involvement in people's private lives. I'm sure they would be happy to hand the files to the Americans or so if they would decide one they they wanted to know the whereabouts of Dutch Citizen X. on date Y. while he was speaking to person Z. on his cellphone. If any politician in Poland would ever come up with such a scheme, he should be shot on sight.

Back to a chipcard for public transportation; the system they use in Kraków is in my opinion quite good; a chipcard together with a photo-ID card which stores month passes and could be expanded to store a wider variety of passes and tickets. No need for checking in or checking out, the controller just holds the card to his or her reader and sees whether you have a valid ticket or not. It's also a fair system for visitors, because there is no personal data on the chip in the card itself, you can buy one on the spot and start using it, the whole process not taking more than 5 minutes if you have a picture for them to make your photo-ID.


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## Suburbanist

^^ You can also buy anonymous OV-Chipkaarts in Netherlands.

The requirement to check in and out is essential to allow fine-grained data about usage of different lines and systems. For instance, during that last budget cut rounds in GVB they had discovered that they were overestimating the ridership of many bus lines and underestimating ridership of several tram lines. 

With a requirement to check in and out, you can collect precise data not only about crowding of vehicles, but detailed travel patterns that allow you to program better your limited transportation resources.


----------



## Proterra

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ You can also buy anonymous OV-Chipkaarts in Netherlands.
> 
> The requirement to check in and out is essential to allow fine-grained data about usage of different lines and systems. For instance, during that last budget cut rounds in GVB they had discovered that they were overestimating the ridership of many bus lines and underestimating ridership of several tram lines.
> 
> With a requirement to check in and out, you can collect precise data not only about crowding of vehicles, but detailed travel patterns that allow you to program better your limited transportation resources.


You don't need to have any personal data on the card itself to mine statistics...


----------



## K_

Proterra said:


> You don't need to have any personal data on the card itself to mine statistics...


You don't even need chip cards. It's perfectly possible to automatically count passengers.


----------



## K_

Silly_Walks said:


> A few times a year wouldn't deter 'zwartrijders'.


In Switzerland getting caught without a ticket several times a year will cost you more then a yearly PT pass would have cost you. And you end up with a criminal record, with all the disadvantages that entails...

Given how low the number of fare evaders are it does appear to work...


----------



## Theijs

K_ said:


> In Switzerland getting caught without a ticket several times a year will cost you more then a yearly PT pass would have cost you.


In Brussels they have a progressive fine system: it starts with something like €85, next time (within 2 years) it doubles to 170 and so on...


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> You don't even need chip cards. It's perfectly possible to automatically count passengers.


But you can't properly identify the total trip data, only individual use at vehicles/lines. With OV-Chipkaart it is possible to gather precise information on total trips, whatever public transportation lines/services are used to complete them.


----------



## Proterra

Suburbanist said:


> But you can't properly identify the total trip data, only individual use at vehicles/lines. With OV-Chipkaart it is possible to gather precise information on total trips, whatever public transportation lines/services are used to complete them.


But what does personal data have to do with trip data? And besides that, with paper tickets one can also gather rather precise data on total trips - no one is going to buy a ticket they're not going to use.


----------



## K_

Theijs said:


> In Brussels they have a progressive fine system: it starts with something like €85, next time (within 2 years) it doubles to 170 and so on...


In Switzerland it's 100 chf for a first and second offense. The third and subsequent times you will have to appear in court. And that is where it quickly becomes expensive.


----------



## 3737

I think another problem is that in the train they almost don't check the OV-chipcards. For my internship I used to use the train for a year between Leiden and Delft but I think they only checked my card 5 times in 1 a whole year!
Because I'm a student it is free so I always check in to use the public transport but a retour between Delft and Leiden normal price 2nd class is 9,20. If you use it for 47 weeks (5 weeks vacation) for 5 days a week it will cost you around 2162 euros per year and with 40% discount (5,60 retour) it will cost you 1316 euro per year. It is even cheaper to get caught. Of course mostly during rush hour it is to crowded to check but in most occasions they close the door and they just sit in first class doing nothing. Why the hell would you even bother to check in ?


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## Road_UK

The few times that I have used the train in the Netherlands I did see conductors walking by with a little device to check those chip cards...


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## Suburbanist

Proterra said:


> But what does personal data have to do with trip data? And besides that, with paper tickets one can also gather rather precise data on total trips - no one is going to buy a ticket they're not going to use.


I'd agree to have plans loaded onto anonymous chipkaarts (except those that require a qualification like study or old age). 

People can buy tickets and use at a later time. Moreover, you can track movements that involve also urban transportation, and you couldn't track itineraries on urban transportation at all with the strippenkaart.


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## K_

3737 said:


> I think another problem is that in the train they almost don't check the OV-chipcards. For my internship I used to use the train for a year between Leiden and Delft but I think they only checked my card 5 times in 1 a whole year! Because I'm a student it is free so I always check in to use the public transport but a retour between Delft and Leiden normal price 2nd class is 9,20. If you use it for 47 weeks (5 weeks vacation) for 5 days a week it will cost you around 2162 euros per year and with 40% discount (5,60 retour) it will cost you 1316 euro per year. It is even cheaper to get caught. Of course mostly during rush hour it is to crowded to check but in most occasions they close the door and they just sit in first class doing nothing. Why the hell would you even bother to check in ?


If you don't mind appearing in court ever year or so you can indeed systematically travel without a ticket. It won't be cheap however.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I'd agree to have plans loaded onto anonymous chipkaarts (except those that require a qualification like study or old age). People can buy tickets and use at a later time. Moreover, you can track movements that involve also urban transportation, and you couldn't track itineraries on urban transportation at all with the strippenkaart.


There is no need for that. You don't need to track everyone's movements. You only need to know the movements of a representative sample, and you can extrapolate from that. SBB for example has gotten pretty good at predicting the number of people that will be on a train, to the point that they will plan in extra trains at short notice. If NS has better data thanks to the OV chipcard they don't appear to be making much use of it.


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

radamfi said:


> I just had a look at their paper tickets and they are not cheap. €2.50 for city and €4 for longer distance buses. Most people travelling shorter distances would be better off with an OV-Chipkaart. Some longer distance trips would be cheaper with the €4 paper ticket.


Correct. Ie the bus 175 from Haarlem Station to Amsterdam Arena costs about 4.50€ with the ov chipcard and 4€ with the paper ticket bought from the driver. There are other examples with similar long routes.


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ You can also buy anonymous OV-Chipkaarts in Netherlands.


But "anonymous" means it is not assigned to one person. You can still track who is the user of the card as you can upload the money on it mostly using the pin card. Can you do it using cash only?


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## Slagathor

Grzegorz.Janoszka said:


> But "anonymous" means it is not assigned to one person. You can still track who is the user of the card as you can upload the money on it mostly using the pin card. Can you do it using cash only?


Yes, you can.


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

*Ring rail roads in the Netherlands*

Recently I have been visiting more often some railway stations in the Netherlands (Amsterdam Centraal, Haarlem, Leiden and so on) and I have noticed every now and then fright trains passing the main stations, sometimes even directly at one of the platforms. I think it happens quite often in Amsterdam Centraal.
I haven't seen such thing in Germany and I noticed that most big German cities have ring rail roads so fright trains can bypass the main passenger stations. Why isn't it the case for Amsterdam? Why do fright trains pass this station, especially in peak hours?

Thanks for any answers.


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## AlexNL

That's because there aren't many routes in the Netherlands which go around city centers. A couple of years ago the purpose-built Betuweroute freight corridor opened, which is meant for freight traffic from Rotterdam to Germany and vice versa. At Meteren (near 's-Hertogenbosch) and at Elst (near Arnhem) junctions were built to allow freight trains to enter and leave the Betuweroute.

In the case of Amsterdam: the harbours are quite close to Amsterdam Central station, and are probably intended to go to Germany. The only possible route is through Amsterdam Centraal, as there are no other routes.


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## Wilhem275

And even with bypasses, freight trains in Germany are sometimes diverted through main stations anyway. It is not uncommon to see tank wagons in Köln Hbf...


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## Slagathor

They do get in the way sometimes but it often isn't feasible to construct the bypasses. Just look at the map of Amsterdam and how a railway line might go from the harbor towards the East without going through the city. It's virtually impossible. And don't say "tunnel", those are fiendishly expensive in our marshland.


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## AlexNL

And the citizens of Amsterdam are scared by tunnels after the Noord/Zuidlijn fiasco (despite the fact that the tunnel boring itself has given almost no troubles).


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## Suburbanist

They should build a new combined subway/freight rail line with 4 tracks. The subway would have the following stations: Westerpark, Joordan, Dam/Rokin, Stadhuis, Plantage, Osterpark (and then the freight line would joing the tracks with a flyover near Westergraaf yard).


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## Wilhem275

To what extent? We already said freight traffic is not that intense... and remember that subways and freight railways need much different gauges and gradients (=> +€€€).

People can just live with the fact that some freigh train will go through a station, sometimes.


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## Suburbanist

^^ At least, it should NOT be diesel trains, always electrical locos.

===============

Freight trains are a problem near the place I live. The railway between Breda and Tilburg Uni. accommodates several freight movements per hour, and also 6 passenger trains (to be increased to 8 in 3 years if NS plans are adopted with new Amsterdam-Eindhoven trains via HSL). We routinely can see freight trains parked at Tilburg waiting for clearance, and any delay wreaks havoc on schedule. There is limited capacity for waiting freight trains, especially eastbound trains, do they cannot hold them there much if passenger trains are disrupted. I'm actually surpised how many freight trains pass here and I wonder where do they came from, since any Rotterdam-bound traffic from/to Germany uses the Betuweroute.


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## Suburbanist

*Station naming inconsistency*

ProRail and the rail companies usually do a good job on signage and standardization of pretty much everything possible among stations (panels, ticket machines, signs etc).

Something that is a mess, though, is station naming for cities with more than one station.

In some cases they adopt "Centraal" on the name to make that station distinguished from others with the same city name, thus Rotterdam Centraal (making it distinguished from Rotterdam Blaak, Rotterdam Alexander and others), Den Haag Centraal, Amsterdam Centraal etc.

However, other cities with two or three stations sharing the city name don't have a station called "Centraal". Tilburg has tree stations (Tilburg -, - Reeshof, - Universiteit). Arnhem has five (Anrhem-, -Zuid, -Velperpoort, -Presikhaaf, -Oosterbeek). Leeuwarden has three, Nijmegen has four...

I think they should adopt some criteria to rename all stations of cities with more than one station named after them in a way that either remove the city prefix or puts a - Centraal suffix on the major station. They could even adopt just the "C." (like the Germans adopt Hpf.)


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## AlexNL

The "Centraal" suffix was given to a few stations a long, long time ago. Nowadays NS pretty much refuses to name any station "Centraal" as the name does not always reflect the status of the station.

Take Kampen for instance: it has two stations, one as the terminus of the Zwolle - Kampen shuttle service, and one at the Hanzelijn: Kampen Zuid. "Kampen" station is close to the city center but only has trains to Zwolle, while Kampen Zuid has a direct train to Amsterdam and at the same time exposes hubs such as Almere and Weesp. I'd say that Kampen Zuid is of bigger importance to Kampen than the old station, despite being further away from the city centre.

Regarding your freight trains question: a lot of these trains come from Belgium (through Roosendaal) and are heading towards Venlo to cross the border there (or vice versa). For trains coming from Rotterdam, the Betuweroute might not be the best fit as it has its own technical characteristics (25 kV, ERTMS) and is not always the best route. The Betuweroute terminates at Emmerich, while Venlo might be a more logical target for some trains.


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## Coccodrillo

^^How long will the Zwolle - Kampen shuttle continue running? I know there were some plans to convert it into a tram-train, but that they were later scrapped.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ At least, it should NOT be diesel trains, always electrical locos.


Why?


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## radamfi

Was there a particular reason why the stations called 'CS' were renamed to 'Centraal' around 1998 ish?


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## 3737

^^ It had something to do with the top 5 busiest railway stations of the Netherlands. Namely Rotterdam centraal, Amsterdam centraal, Utrecht centraal, Leiden centraal and The Hague centraal.

Also a cheaper option is just to make a free platform track where it can safely pass a station for example at Leiden centraal.








Link


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Why?


Diesel fumes make stations dirty over time with soot. Just take a look at London terminals with plenty of diesel traffic.


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## Wilhem275

"Plenty" is different from "sometimes"; and when it happens, freight trains usually don't stand in the station.

And please don't go over with the nanny rethorics of the super-unsafe freight train passing along a platform... icard:


All these things only add complications to the railway. In these days, we are getting to the point that certain infrastructures are not built just because they reached such a degree of complication that in the end it makes costs overcome advantages...

I'm very harsh on this point because I'm used to propose very practical solutions about railways and every time I receive a truckload of complaints about nothing, then everything gets stuck...


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## Coccodrillo

Also if diesel traffic is low and in transit? Diesel trains in London idle on place for some time, so it must be different.


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## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> I'm very harsh on this point because I'm used to propose very practical solutions about railways and every time I receive a truckload of complaints about nothing, then everything gets stuck...


I feel your pain. I've been involved in a rail infrastructure project at the planning stage and the shit storms coming from all directions are just sheer. I used to fantasize about standing up at meetings and just yelling "Everyone SHUT THE **** UUUUUUPP!"


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## Dzwonsson

AlexNL said:


> It's not that much of a blessing as it seems to be at first sight [...]


Exactly, for example a while ago I had a friend from abroad visiting for a day and we wanted to go the city center, which is just a couple of subway stops from where I live. We went to the subway station (Melanchtonweg) and guess what? You can't get a single fare ticket at the TVMs at that particular station; moreover, there is no booth or desk service either. So, we made use of their customer service line and believe it or not we were advised to take the tram instead. Which we eventually did. But, that's not all, it turned out the single fare is €3.50 which is crazy (in NY a single ride ticket is $2.30 in comparison). Not to mention that the single fare ticket is supposed to be valid for 2 hours after the first check-in and well... it isn't, an hour later we tried to take the subway and my friend's ticket was declined everywhere. A while later we decided to go home, so I tried to get my friend another ticket and again, we checked a couple of subway stations and the first place where we actually could get a single fare ticket was Beurs and it took us at least half an hour to get there from where we were. In other words: if you don't have the OV chipkaart you're screwed.


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Wilhem275 said:


> "Plenty" is different from "sometimes"; and when it happens, freight trains usually don't stand in the station.


Actually on busy stations I see fright trains stopping, sometimes even twice.


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## radamfi

Is this a genuine advert? If so, is it on more than one bus and if so, which bus company/area?

http://t.co/i2SnZ6VDmR


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## Suburbanist

^^ In English only? Unlikely.


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## Momo1435

It's real, it was an ad in 2010 on a Connexxion bus, this is bus from Amsterdam Centraal Station to Uithoorn Amstelplein (or vice versa).


It's mentioned here on a Dutch website about advertising.
http://www.admosphere.nl/guerilla-ns-if-youve-had-the-time-to-read-this-story/


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## radamfi

What are the main changes for the new timetable from 15 December?


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> What are the main changes for the new timetable from 15 December?


No major change this year that I'm aware of. No new lines, no new high-speed trains.


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> What are the main changes for the new timetable from 15 December?


No major change this year that I'm aware of. No new lines, no new high-speed trains.


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## Road_UK

Say again?


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## radamfi

Just noticed that the UK changes its timetable on 8 December whereas most other European countries change on 15 December. In recent years, the UK changed on the same date. I asked on a UK forum and they said the UK always changes on the second Sunday in December. What is the rule in NL?


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## AlexNL

On European mainland the rule is "the Sunday after the 2nd Saturday". As Dec 1st 2013 is on a Sunday, it becomes the 3rd Sunday of the month.

Except for the GrenslandExpress (the local train between Hengelo and Bad Bentheim), this train will stop on December 8th. The reason? The associated concessions end on Dec. 8th due to a mistake made during tendering.


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## radamfi

Thanks, just spotted this:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32002D0844:EN:HTML



> Paragraph 2 of Annex III to Directive 2001/14/EC is hereby replaced by the following: "2. The change of working timetable shall take place at midnight on the second Saturday in December. Where a change or adjustment is carried out after the winter, in particular to take account, where appropriate, of changes in regional passenger traffic timetables, it shall take place at midnight on the second Saturday in June and at such other intervals between these dates as are required. Infrastructure managers may agree on different dates and in this case they shall inform the Commission if international traffic may be affected."


So it looks like the UK has a different interpretation of this directive. They think that 'midnight on second Saturday night' means the same as 'midnight on second Sunday morning'. Unfortunately, this means that the UK will be different when the 1 December is on a Sunday.


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## Coccodrillo

I heard that these standardized dates may change in future, to the night of the switch from summer to winter time (in October), from 2018 or so.


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## AlexNL

Some operators (such as DB) and agencies (such as Treinreiswinkel) have been asking for this, because a lot of international trains open for sale only late October, while people start making plans for Christmas way in advance.

Having the yearly timetable change occur in October would mean that those trains open for sale in July/August, which better fits in with the planning period.


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## Momo1435

Some pictures


Delft


IMG_0102 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_0125 by Momo1435, on Flickr


Rotterdam


IMG_0181 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_0186 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_0202 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_0205 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_0220 by Momo1435, on Flickr


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## radamfi

What are the major rail schemes in the Netherlands at the moment? Any new lines? Is railway investment being cut back to pay for the big road expansion?


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## AlexNL

radamfi said:


> What are the major rail schemes in the Netherlands at the moment? Any new lines? Is railway investment being cut back to pay for the big road expansion?


There are no new lines planned, but that doesn't mean nothing is happening. Currently, a lot of stations are being upgraded or completely rebuilt to cope with increasing demand. The government is working on increasing frequencies up to a train every 10 minutes on selected routes (Programma Hoogfrequent Spoor), and the nationwide rollout of ERTMS is being prepared.

More is happening, such as SAAL: the expansion of capacity between Schiphol, Amsterdam South, Almere and Lelystad by doubling railway tracks between Schiphol and Duivendrecht and signaling improvements.


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## radamfi

Sounds good, but aren't there still significant gaps in the rail network, such as Breda to Utrecht? Belgium has a lot more stations yet is a much smaller country. Although I still prefer the Dutch network as it is higher quality.


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## AlexNL

Breda - Utrecht has been proposed multiple times, but unfortunately no plans exist to actually build that thing.


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## webeagle12

*Fyra fiasco could cost NS €465m*

DURING a debate in the Dutch parliament on November 4 finance minister Mr Jeroen Dijsselbloem, revealed that the loss incurred by Netherlands Railways (NS) as a result of the Fyra debacle stands at around €221m and could reach €465m when all costs, including legal fees and the cancellation of the order for AnsaldoBreda V250 trains, are taken into account.

It is feared that the financial impact will hit NS' investment programme and will probably lead to the cancellation of the company's dividend to the Dutch state. The government had previously forecast a dividend of €119m for 2013, but Dijsselbloem says he expects there will be no payment at all this year.

In previous years these payments were allocated to the rail programme of the state's Infrastructure Fund, which provides investment in national infrastructure projects and maintenance. In the absence of a dividend from NS, the state will cover the €119m payment to the Infrastructure Fund.

NS is a publically-owned company under Dutch civil law, with 100% of the company's shares held by the state. The minister of finance is the designated shareholder, while the minister of infrastructure is counterpart to NS for operating concessions and implementation of transport policy.

The withdrawal of Fyra and NS' exit from the high-speed business means all high-speed services on HSL South will be operated by Thalys, and Eurostar from 2016.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/fyra-fiasco-could-cost-ns-€465m.html?channel=537


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Moving from ATB to ERTMS has disadvantages too. ATB is actually quite a sophisticated system, very suitable for a high traffic density network like that of NS. And it's not because a line is straight that you can travel at 200kph over it.


ERTMS is superior to any other system when fully deployed, and unbeatable on its third specification.

If you have a straight and plane ROW, it is much cheaper to, over time, fix other stuff needed to run trains at 200 km/h like the trackbed. Not cheap, not doable overnight, but much easier than when you need a new ROW.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ERTMS is superior to any other system when fully deployed, and unbeatable on its third specification. If you have a straight and plane ROW, it is much cheaper to, over time, fix other stuff needed to run trains at 200 km/h like the trackbed. Not cheap, not doable overnight, but much easier than when you need a new ROW.


You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.


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## Glodenox

K_ said:


> You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.


Could you at the very least explain why you are saying this? That sort of message doesn't add anything to the topic apart from your personal opinion right now...

I don't know about how ATB and ETCS shape up against each other, but I do know that the long term plans in Belgium are to transform all lines to ETCS. The balises being placed right now only support TBL1+, which is specific to Belgium, but those same balises can relatively easily be reprogrammed to support ETCS.

Also, isn't it so that the more balises are placed, the more accurate the clearances stay for trains, allowing a bigger throughput? With the radio-based clearances being the best, of course. (I could be wrong here)


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Wilhem275 said:


> Countries with DC current are developing 25 kV just on new HSLs, there are no real projects of general conversions... In Italy it's being discussed but it's not going to happen in years, too complicated. And we already had a general change of system, in the 70s.


AFAIK Czech republic is migrating all their railways to 25kV. There are other countries thinking about it as well, however there is a long way to go from thinking to actual decisions.
And what was the general change in the 70's if all the other countries have more modern and more universal systems? Why wasn't it decided to go to 3kV back then?



Wilhem275 said:


> Switching to 3 kV DC would be a wise move: not a lot to be rebuilt, but some decent advantages (we go 250 km/h on that, with special equipment, and 200-220 on normal lines).
> NL would also have access to a broader market of rolling stock, developed for bigger countries with a HS system (Italy, Spain, and Poland will come). Look at Poland: it needed fast trains in a short time, and the Pendolinos were ready...


Well, Penodolino can run on 1.5kV as well. Poland however had to rebuild a little bit their 3kV sections of HS for Pendolino, denser power stations and some other stuff. The Pendolino tests yesterday set the new speed record for Poland - 292 km/h.


----------



## K_

Glodenox said:


> Could you at the very least explain why you are saying this? That sort of message doesn't add anything to the topic apart from your personal opinion right now... I don't know about how ATB and ETCS shape up against each other, but I do know that the long term plans in Belgium are to transform all lines to ETCS. The balises being placed right now only support TBL1+, which is specific to Belgium, but those same balises can relatively easily be reprogrammed to support ETCS. Also, isn't it so that the more balises are placed, the more accurate the clearances stay for trains, allowing a bigger throughput? With the radio-based clearances being the best, of course. (I could be wrong here)


One of the advantages of ATB is that it communicates constantly with the train. So if a signal changes to a less restrictive aspect a train approaching it can accelerate immediately to a higher speed, and doesn't have to wait till it passes over the next balise. ATB is actually a very good system. 
That is why for the Dutch railways migrating to ETCS L1 might actually lead to a lower capacity of the network. ETCS L2 would be an improvement, and that is probably what might end up being done. SBB is planning to convert the whole network to ETCS L2 as well.


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## Wilhem275

Grzegorz.Janoszka said:


> And what was the general change in the 70's if all the other countries have more modern and more universal systems? Why wasn't it decided to go to 3kV back then?


We = Italy, not NL  Italy had part of its network based on a weird 3,6 kV AC 3-phase 2-cable system... it was all dismissed in 1976, after a conversion process which meant a complete rebuilding.

During the conversion there were such situations:









The train on the right was fitted for both systems.

I guess swithing from 1,5 to 3 would be easier than 25, because infrastructure and trains would need less work on them. Yes, the 25 kV cable is lighter, but it needs a higher insulation space from other structures, which the existing masts and substations may not guarantee.

Actually I'm more worried about trains that infra: the Dutch network, despite being dense, is not enormous... but a lot of rolling stock would be needed, during the conversion.


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## XAN_

Grzegorz.Janoszka said:


> AFAIK Czech republic is migrating all their railways to 25kV. There are other countries thinking about it as well, however there is a long way to go from thinking to actual decisions.
> And what was the general change in the 70's if all the other countries have more modern and more universal systems? Why wasn't it decided to go to 3kV back then?


Back in 60s, there was a rapid advance of mass-produced rectiferes and other AC electrics, so it become possible to make relatively cheap and durable standat-frequency-AC loco.
Before that it was kind of dilemma - either railway choose simple and durable DC locos and builds tons of substations and thicker catenary, or low-frequency AC and builds conversion stations (standard frequency->low frequency) and/or low-frequency power-plants, or go for standard frequency AC, wich don't need all that stuff, but turning locomotives into state-of-art and hell-expensive breakthrough machinery.


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## Glodenox

K_ said:


> One of the advantages of ATB is that it communicates constantly with the train. So if a signal changes to a less restrictive aspect a train approaching it can accelerate immediately to a higher speed, and doesn't have to wait till it passes over the next balise. ATB is actually a very good system.
> That is why for the Dutch railways migrating to ETCS L1 might actually lead to a lower capacity of the network. ETCS L2 would be an improvement, and that is probably what might end up being done. SBB is planning to convert the whole network to ETCS L2 as well.


Ah, I wasn't aware that ATB also communicates directly to the trains. I just looked it up and ATB seems to use the rails to transmit the clearance information. Even so, I don't think ETCS Level 2 is really necessary everywhere (always welcome, obviously, but not a necessity). On many stretches Level 1 would be more than sufficient and I could understand that choice if it is cheaper to implement. But if a certain stretch is really used very often, I'm sure they'll realise they need to opt for Level 2.


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## Suburbanist

ERTMS 2 is superior to ATB in terms of capabilities for busy railways. 

As for 25kV AC eletrification, they could start with some dead-end routes like the lines Mappel-Leeuwarden/Groningen, or the Rosendaal-Vlissingen link. 

60Hz AC is much easier to manage, you can draw it from the electrical grid.


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## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> 60Hz AC is much easier to manage, you can draw it from the electrical grid.


I assume you mean 50Hz.


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## radamfi

Is there any news yet on the proposal to replace paper tickets with disposable smartcards?


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> Is there any news yet on the proposal to replace paper tickets with disposable smartcards?


I think most transactions already happen with the OV-Chipkaart. Paper ticket use is declining fast.


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## AlexNL

Paper ticket use is declining, indeed, but that is also because NS is making it very hard to avoid the OV-chipkaart. Many products have been either abolished altogether (such as the round trip ticket or a day pass) or have already been moved to the chipkaart. The 'trajectabonnement' (a pass which allows unlimited travel between two stations) is the last one to be moved to the chipkaart.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Round-trip tickets offered a discount that was applied to all fares at the time reizen-op-saldo (pay-as-you-go) was unveiled. So it it like all journeys started costed half the price of a round-trip one. 

Moreover, the maximum price for any train journey was set at half the price of a day-pass.

The only group who lost here were the small number of people making sporadic triangular long journeys in the same day.


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## AlexNL

Round trip tickets were interesting as they gave you the advantage of ongoing tariff degression: the three trips were counted as one, which is cheaper than two tickets. They were used rarely if I go by my experiences: a strange look from a ticket inspector when I handed him a ticket 'From Breda to Breda (via Delft and Eindhoven)'


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

AlexNL said:


> Paper ticket use is declining, indeed, but that is also because NS is making it very hard to avoid the OV-chipkaart. Many products have been either abolished altogether (such as the round trip ticket or a day pass) or have already been moved to the chipkaart. The 'trajectabonnement' (a pass which allows unlimited travel between two stations) is the last one to be moved to the chipkaart.


Actually after some years without, I started to use paper tickets again. How else am I supposed to grant 40% discount to people traveling with me?


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## AlexNL

That is also possible with the OV-chipkaart. Before checking in, have the people who are travelling with you go to a ticket vending machine. Have them load the product 'Samenreiskorting' onto their card. Upon check-in they will get the discounted tariff.

They'll have to do it again for the next trip.


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## M-NL

K_ said:


> One of the advantages of ATB is that it communicates constantly with the train. So if a signal changes to a less restrictive aspect a train approaching it can accelerate immediately to a higher speed, and doesn't have to wait till it passes over the next balise.
> That is why for the Dutch railways migrating to ETCS L1 might actually lead to a lower capacity of the network.


While this statement may have been true 5 to 10 years ago and thus made a transition to at least L2 a necesity, this isn't true anymore. In the meantime L1 has been extended with Euroloop and, even more important, radio infill. Radio infill is basically the same as the L2 air interface, but is only used in case a train should have an information update in between balises. For normal operation the balises are used to communicate with the train.

Thus the only difference between L1 and L2 is the way the infrastructure communicates with the train.


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## DingeZ

Bottom line is that migrating to ERTMS L1 would be too much effort for a small profit. Strictly seen the Dutch network is slowly upgraded to ERTMS L3, but Level 2 is used until Level 3 is completed.


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## radamfi

If you have an inclusive rail/ferry ticket from London to Any Dutch Station, using the Hoek van Holland to Harwich ferry, what routes are you allowed to use in NL? For example, are you allowed to go Hoek van Holland - Rotterdam - Schiphol (via Fyra)? Or Hoek van Holland - Schiedam - Amsterdam - Maastricht? Or are you only allowed a proper direct route?


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## Road_UK

Fyra is dead. I'd expect you'd be allowed on any train that doesn't require reservation, but you best check with Stena Line or NS.


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## radamfi

Is there no longer a toeslag for the Breda to Amsterdam direct train?


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## AlexNL

A supplement is still required between Breda and Schiphol. Starting from December 15, the supplement will no longer be required between Breda and Rotterdam, but will remain compulsory for Schiphol - Rotterdam.


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> Is there no longer a toeslag for the Breda to Amsterdam direct train?


Only for Schiphol-Rotterdam sector, it costs € 2,30, and the train is now called "Intercity Direct" and not Fyra.


----------



## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Suburbanist said:


> Only for Schiphol-Rotterdam sector, it costs € 2,30, and the train is now called "Intercity Direct" and not Fyra.


Yesterday on Amsterdam Centraal they still announced Fyra, never heard them announcing IC Direct.


----------



## AlexNL

The IC Direct brand will be introduced with the December timetable change.


----------



## M-NL

DingeZ said:


> Bottom line is that migrating to ERTMS L1 would be too much effort for a small profit. Strictly seen the Dutch network is slowly upgraded to ERTMS L3, but Level 2 is used until Level 3 is completed.


Is it? L1 with radio infill and L2 will perform exactly the same. 
One of the major issues with the higher ERTMS levels is the limited bandwidth of GSM-R, which can cause problems with extensively used routes or on complex yards. Also GSM-R signal quality can suffer from for instance the use of LTE in an adjacent band. Using L1 instead of L2 on busy locations can therefore solve this communication speed limitation.

These problems will only be worse in L3, because now the train itself is even more responsible for locating itself and therefore must send out more location reports. Also L3 can only be used on trains having integrity protection, which at this moment is still a problem with locomotive drawn trains wihich are not of a fixed composition.


----------



## XAN_

M-NL said:


> Is it? L1 with radio infill and L2 will perform exactly the same.
> One of the major issues with the higher ERTMS levels is the limited bandwidth of GSM-R, which can cause problems with extensively used routes or on complex yards. Also GSM-R signal quality can suffer from for instance the use of LTE in an adjacent band. Using L1 instead of L2 on busy locations can therefore solve this communication speed limitation.
> 
> These problems will only be worse in L3, because now the train itself is even more responsible for locating itself and therefore must send out more location reports. Also L3 can only be used on trains having integrity protection, which at this moment is still a problem with locomotive drawn trains wihich are not of a fixed composition.


Well, so TVM-style (or ALSN-EN) systems still have a fair number of advantages, compared to high-level ERTMS?


----------



## M-NL

The main disadvantages of ERTMS are the limitations of the air interface, it's complexity and, for the moment, its higher costs compared to the current systems.

Currently work is being done on upgrading the air interface to something faster and the cost will drop automatically with increased usage rate. Its complexity is the result of the tasks the system is required to perform, which is to be a succesor to all systems currently in use. I supose a large part of this complexity can also best be described as lack of experience. Once you get the hang of a new system you can start copy-pasting standard solutions, and this will not be an issue anymore.


----------



## Suburbanist

Three bits of news:

- Costs of FYRA cancellation are mounting for NS, it will have to pay another € 153 million to the State this year as it didn't deliver contracted services which would allow the reduction on HSL franchise fee reduction agreed in 2008-9 - conditioned to running high-speed services.

- NS announced it will remove most arrival and departure printed boards from platforms as surveys show few people use them as most passengers now rely on electronic panels and smartphones/tablets to plan their trips 

- NS also started a new campaign for free weekend prices lasting until May 2014: € 29 (2nd class) or € 45 (1st class) for passengers who want unlimited rides Friday 19.00 - Monday 4.00. These prices are valid for one year after contract is signed.


----------



## AlexNL

A short while ago we had a discussion about re-electrification of the Dutch railway network. As it turns out, we aren't the only ones who were having those talks - so are ProRail (the infrastructure manager) and NS (the operator).

ProRail and NS seem to have settled on a re-electrification on 3 kV for a number of causes:
- Energy losses over longer distances will be lower than on 1,5 kV
- Trains can accelerate quicker
- It allows for higher top speeds
- Braking energy recuperation rates can go up from 10% to as much as 40%
- Estimated CO2 reduction: 150 million kilos per year
- Does not require a full re-electrification and re-signalling as would be the case with 25 kV

Cost estimations:
- Infrastructure: € 400 million
- Rolling stock: no final figure has been determined but will most likely be less than infrastructure costs

Benefits:
- Savings on energy bill up to € 30 million / year, measured by today's electricity prices


Source (in Dutch): OV magazine


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## Wilhem275

Not bad.


----------



## Suburbanist

I still think they should work on re-electrification at 25kV AC. They could start with lines in Noord Holland (isolated from the rest), then move on to electrify anything outwards form Zwolle (including present-day diesel lines like Harlingen-Leeuwarden) and the move one to the core network.

=============================

I read a while ago (more like 2 years ago) about some plans to redevelop and reinstate train service on the ZLSM line. Any concrete news on that


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## Silly_Walks

25kV is more future proof, and in the end has even more power savings.


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## Suburbanist

Silly_Walks said:


> 25kV is more future proof, and in the end has even more power savings.


25kv AC 60Hz also allows for ProRail to take electricity from the grid with ease.


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## Silly_Walks

50Hz, I assume?


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## XAN_

Silly_Walks said:


> 50Hz, I assume?


Bingo


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## Suburbanist

FYRA brand is being withdrawn :sad2:










.

These are the new "supplement payment totems" to be fit on stations served by Intercity Direct trains


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## AlexNL

It's only logical, the Fyra brand has been damaged heavily in the past 4.5 years. Its replacement, _Intercity direct_, is just horrible.


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## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> A short while ago we had a discussion about re-electrification of the Dutch railway network. As it turns out, we aren't the only ones who were having those talks - so are ProRail (the infrastructure manager) and NS (the operator).
> 
> ProRail and NS seem to have settled on a re-electrification on 3 kV for a number of causes: ...


I came across this map of maximum traction current limits in Belgium. It seems that switching to 3 kV with a 2.4 kA limit as is common in Belgium will not help much (3 x 2.4 = 7.2 MW). 

It seems to me that if they switch to 3 kV in the Netherlands they should aim for at least a 3 kA limit (9 MW, still not enough for dual TRAXX's at full power) or better still retain the current 4 kA limit (12 MW). Then you're almost at the same power level you would achieve with 25 kV at 500 A, but with a lot less effort needed.


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> Wow, that's quite a bombshell to me. For years I have been posting on British forums that they should follow the Dutch/Swiss example of carefully planned connections that wait a few minutes in case of delays. Now it seems that the Dutch have copied the British!


The problem is that you have competing goals. If you hold up trains on some stations, it will just cascade these effects elsewhere.

The ultimate solution is: run your train on time.


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## radamfi

Suburbanist said:


> The problem is that you have competing goals. If you hold up trains on some stations, it will just cascade these effects elsewhere.


That's what the British National Rail timetable has stated for at least 20 years:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec13/Commercial_Information.pdf (page 6)



> "Connections between trains cannot be guaranteed. The nature of the integrated operation of railway passenger services
> means that to delay one train to await customers from a late running train arriving at a station may cause significant
> disruption to many other customers when they make connections at other stations along the route. Every endeavour
> is made to minimise the total disruption and particular attention is given to services operating infrequently and the last
> train services each day.
> 
> The aim of all Train Operating Companies is to run punctually; inevitably some disruption occurs from time to time. When
> planning a journey you may wish to consider the effects which any disruption could have and to allow some contingency
> margin when planning connections"


The problem is that you have effectively reduced the frequency on Dutch trains to those where direct trains exist. For example, according to the timetable, Utrecht to Groningen is every 30 minutes, either direct or changing at Zwolle. However, if you now assume that trains won't wait, you will only want to get the direct train, meaning the effective frequency is now every hour. 

The Dutch situation is worse because there is such a short wait between the connections so they are easy to miss. At least in Britain you have 'minimum connection times' so only those connections where the gap between trains is larger than the minimum connection time will be offered. 

You also now have the issue of some important routes not having direct trains, such as Amsterdam C to Groningen, as you can't rely on the connection now.


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## Suburbanist

^^ But how often do trains miss connections? I don't think that happens often. They probably hold up local Sprinter trains to make way for IC trains if that is the case.

Just because a connection isn't guaranteed doesn't mean it is missed every time. 

I think trains will wait each other in Venlo and Zwolle, where there are cross-platform schemes.


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## M-NL

The stupidest thing they ever did in my opinion was to change the old system where there was a intercity Hoofddorp/Amsterdam-Enschede(or Berlin every 2 hours) and Rotterdam/The Hague-Groningen/Leeuwarden each hour and also an intercity Hoofddorp/Amsterdam-Groningen/Leeuwarden and Rotterdam/The Hague-Enschede each hour shifted half an hour from the other service (so effecively 2 intercities each hour). That made sense and had worked perfectly for at least 25 years.


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## radamfi

^^I guess that had to change because of the new Lelystad to Zwolle line.


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## Suburbanist

Just because something has worked for 30 years doesn't mean it can't be changed. 

There is the Hanzelijn, which shifted Amsterdam=>Zwolle traffic to Lelystad, removing connections in Amersfoort.


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## Road_UK

radamfi said:


> Why don't Dutch trains accept Visa/Mastercard at most stations? I can understand that they don't want to pay the transaction fees charged by the banks, but they could offer Visa/Mastercard at all stations like they do at Schiphol for an extra charge. Some countries don't issue Maestro cards very much, if at all. Also petrol/gas stations in NL seem to have no problem accepting Visa/Mastercard.


The Dutch are running a bit behind the times when it comes to credit card payments. Even in shops, supermarkets and restaurants it hasn't really kicked in.


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## radamfi

Road_UK said:


> The Dutch are running a bit behind the times when it comes to credit card payments. Even in shops, supermarkets and restaurants it hasn't really kicked in.


But the Dutch are very good at accepting DEBIT cards as opposed to credit cards. They had their PIN systems before most other countries. I can fully understand not accepting credit cards because of the fees, but why don't NS accept Visa and Mastercard DEBIT cards?


----------



## M-NL

radamfi said:


> I guess that had to change because of the new Lelystad to Zwolle line.


They changed it a few years ago with the argument to create a more robust time table.



Suburbanist said:


> Just because something has worked for 30 years doesn't mean it can't be changed.


I'm not against change at all, but change should make things better, not worse. You be the judge: It used to possible to travel from Twente to Amsterdam twice an hour, once direct, once with 1 change at Amersfoort, with a traveltime of roughly 1h45m. Nowadays direct is only possible once every 2 hours, otherwise up to 3 changes are required and travel time has increased by up to 25 minutes. In fact for most itineraries from Twente to the west a lot more changes are needed and travel time has increased.


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## Theijs

radamfi said:


> Why don't NS accept Visa and Mastercard DEBIT cards?


ask NS via Twitter: @ns_online
I know their are paranoia for fraud...


----------



## radamfi

Theijs said:


> ask NS via Twitter: @ns_online
> I know their are paranoia for fraud...


Are Visa and Mastercard debit cards any more prone to fraud compared to Maestro debit cards, which NS accept?


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## AlexNL

I think it has to do with associated costs offset against the low amount of people using it. Dutch people have bank cards that support Maestro. Foreigners can go to a ticket window to buy a ticket, and paying a € 0.50 surcharge for it!

Customer friendly? Nope.

I guess it's their way of saying "Welcome to Dutch Railways!" I suppose...


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## M-NL

Maestro = Mastercard.


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## Suburbanist

PIN system in Netherlands is a national network separated from Maestro/Mastercard/Eurocard or Cirrus/Visa networks.


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## AlexNL

The old PIN system was switched off when the magstripe was replaced with an EMV chip. Dutch banks nowadays use Maestro (most banks) or V Pay (SNS).


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## radamfi

M-NL said:


> Maestro = Mastercard.


Maestro is owned by Mastercard, however Maestro cards and Mastercards are not necessarily accepted in the same places.


----------



## duongpm006

Maxx☢Power;33595456 said:


> You think this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looks "fatter" than this?


Yes, i think that!


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> The old PIN system was switched off when the magstripe was replaced with an EMV chip. Dutch banks nowadays use Maestro (most banks) or V Pay (SNS).


Didn't know that the chip-based cards were no longer PIN.

I still get PIN or Maestro as options to pick when I use my card in certain places.

The Dutch also had the Chipknip system, a portable chip-stored offline wallet system. It didn't require a password.


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## AlexNL

Chipknip still exists but will be phased out in 2015 due to declining usage. Meanwhile tests are being carried out to pay with an OV-chipkaart, and contactless payment is on its way as well.


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## M-NL

radamfi said:


> Maestro is owned by Mastercard, however Maestro cards and Mastercards are not necessarily accepted in the same places.


You're right. I only meant that Meastro is a brand name for Mastercard debit cards, not that their credit and debit cards were interchangable (as you state, they're not).


----------



## 3737

LtBk said:


> Why the lack of HSR or upgraded train lines between northern Netherlands and Germany?


They are upgrading but it goes really slow.
More info.


----------



## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> In the future, when Kampen - Zwolle and Zwolle - Wierden are electrified, the lines might be put into a single concession and put out for tender. This is more likely to attract interested parties, but will probably mean that the infrastructure at Zwolle will have to be adjusted.


 Actually electrifying and also double tracking Zwolle - Wierden could make sense: You could send the Amsterdam - Berlin train (or any intercity for that matter) over the Hanzelijn. Consider that at the current 140 km/h speed limit it takes 40m (including 4 stops!) to get from Almelo to Zwolle and 1h8m to get from Zwolle to Amsterdam CS, whereas the current route via Amersfoort takes 1h44m. If in the future the ICx can run 200 km/h on the Hanzelijn, that would reduce travel time and relieve Amersfoort.


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## Silly_Walks

LtBk said:


> Why the lack of HSR or upgraded train lines between northern Netherlands and Germany?


Both sides of the border are sparsely populated, peripheral regions. Not a lot of people for traffic within the border region, and not a lot of people from outside the border region travelling through it.


----------



## Surel

Slagathor said:


> The line between Leeuwarden and Groningen should be electrified and should feature two tracks. Unfortunately the only way that line would have received a real impulse would have been through the construction of a railway line on the Afsluitdijk which is not going to happen since the government decided to go with the Lelystad-Zwolle connection instead.


Nice map.

What about building a new **** and connecting Amsterdam, Hoorn - Leeuwaarden, Groningen and Bremen (Hamburg) with a 200+line.


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## Road_UK

Sunfuns said:


> I certainly don't. Why is there very little demand and are you sure it's not a chicken and egg problem (no demand because connections are poor and poor connections because there is little demand)?


There's a motorway running parallel with hardly anyone on it. It's a very remote part of the Netherlands with low population density and practicality no transit traffic.


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## da_scotty

Surel said:


> Nice map.
> 
> What about building a new **** and connecting Amsterdam, Hoorn - Leeuwaarden, Groningen and Bremen (Hamburg) with a 200+line.


You say build a Afsluitdijk next to the Afsluitdijk. There where plans once to build a railway there, but it was axed in favor for a second carriageway for the motorway.

But Demand is to low and I think priorities for 200Km/h+ should be somewhere else!


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## Suburbanist

^^ It doesn't have to be a second levee. The IJsselmeer is quite shallow, you could build a normal viaduct there, it wouldn't even be that expensive. Actually, you could build a subaquatict tunnel as well, probably after dragging a channel over the shallowest parts. Or build a mix of viaduct +tunnel + artificial island.


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## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ It doesn't have to be a second levee. The IJsselmeer is quite shallow, you could build a normal viaduct there, it wouldn't even be that expensive. Actually, you could build a subaquatict tunnel as well, probably after dragging a channel over the shallowest parts. Or build a mix of viaduct +tunnel + artificial island.


How about trying to change your own country instead of throwing your "they shoulds" everywhere in other places


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## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> How about trying to change your own country instead of throwing your "they shoulds" everywhere in other places


What about you stop trying to disqualify my posting activity on SSC with cheap attacks like this one?


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist's idea is a nice engineering challenge, but will not be realized as there is not enough demand to justify the expenses incurred.


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> Suburbanist's idea is a nice engineering challenge, but will not be realized as there is not enough demand to justify the expenses incurred.


I think the Hanzelijn more or less put off other railways to Fr^yslan and Groningen for the time being, in practice. 

Yet, a lot of travel time could be gained if they upgraded the signaling. ATB is, at the moment, what holds back higher speeds. ROW for most railways is fine (where it wasn't, like Rotterdam-Moerdijk, a HSL was built after all...). Eliminating grade crossings is not a difficult task on major trunk roads (if only they don't want a rail tunnel as the standard solution)* However, until 130 km/h restrictions are in place the system will underperform. 

That is why I don't understand this money thrown away on ATB-"plus" as most of the network will eventually get ERTMS.


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## Surel

da_scotty said:


> You say build a Afsluitdijk next to the Afsluitdijk. There where plans once to build a railway there, but it was axed in favor for a second carriageway for the motorway.
> 
> But Demand is to low and I think priorities for 200Km/h+ should be somewhere else!


Well, yeah.

But first, it would not have to be so complicated as Afsluitdijk as it would have not its functions. It could prove financially more feasible due to already existing tracks. It could prove more beneficial in terms of the time travel.

There is certainly less demand. But one of the reason that the north is so underdeveloped is its troublesome connection to the core. If you could get commuting times from Leeuwarden to Amsterdam under 40 minutes, it would be feasible for daily commute.

Sure, they probably are projects that deliver more in the cost benefit analysis and thus the economics would favor them. On the other side I am not sure that in this way a less developed regions will improve in the long term.

All in all it was just an idea.


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## Suburbanist

^^ I think the greatest hurdle of a new railway to Leeuwarden wouldn't be crossing the water, not crossing Frisian fields, but finding a proper ROW between Amsterdam and the water. The line to Einkhuizen would require major works (for a 40min travel time). Yet, I agree that making Sneek a place with easy access to Amsterdam would be a great thing, for instance.


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## Momo1435

Before we start new lines to the outer parts of the country it's 1st needed to seriously upgrade the lines around the 4 big cities. There's much more to be won thereb in terms of creating better services for more people and making the network as a whole more reliable.


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## Suburbanist

Momo1435 said:


> Before we start new lines to the outer parts of the country it's 1st needed to seriously upgrade the lines around the 4 big cities. There's much more to be won thereb in terms of creating better services for more people and making the network as a whole more reliable.


What about that project to have 6 ICs per hour per direction on lines between A'Dam-R'Dam-Eindhoven-Utrecht-A'dam?


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## Surel

Momo1435 said:


> Before we start new lines to the outer parts of the country it's 1st needed to seriously upgrade the lines around the 4 big cities. There's much more to be won thereb in terms of creating better services for more people and making the network as a whole more reliable.



But that's exactly what I was talking about. If you invest in the core, because the return on the investment is higher (at least so it may seem), you will need to subsidize the periphery in the long run in order to keep the living standards in tact, you will see demographic problems, etc etc.

On the other side, if you make the periphery more connected and participating on the wealth creation now at the costs of higher investments, you will be rewarded by less redistribution in other areas.

The exact cost benefit analysis in the big picture is unfortunately more a crystal ball work than anything. In this respect I think that it is anyway more a question of political will and ambition than precise economic calculation, as that one is mostly not possible.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I think the greatest hurdle of a new railway to Leeuwarden wouldn't be crossing the water, not crossing Frisian fields, but finding a proper ROW between Amsterdam and the water. The line to Einkhuizen would require major works (for a 40min travel time). Yet, I agree that making Sneek a place with easy access to Amsterdam would be a great thing, for instance.


I think they already made a start in Stavoren, didn't they? :cheers:


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## radamfi

Do Friesland/Groningen/Drenthe want fast rail links to the Randstad? It might change the provincial way of life (i.e. increase development) and make the cost of housing more expensive if the area becomes commutable to the Randstad.


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## radamfi

Road_UK said:


> There's a motorway running parallel with hardly anyone on it. It's a very remote part of the Netherlands with low population density and practicality no transit traffic.


There is an express bus service running from Alkmaar to Leeuwarden every hour, 7 days a week, with clever connection possibilities at Den Oever so that passengers from Den Helder and Hoorn can also travel to Leeuwarden with virtually no waiting in Den Oever as the bus schedules are carefully coordinated.

What I find bizarre is why the bus service along the Afsluitdijk is so good whereas there is no service between Lelystad and Enkhuizen along the N302. The train alternative is a long detour via Amsterdam.


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> That is why I don't understand this money thrown away on ATB-"plus" as most of the network will eventually get ERTMS.


 You mean ATB-VV right? ATB-VV is the system used to prevent SPADs. ATB+ is the system Thalys (and Thalys only!) used to go 160 km/h on a 140 km/h stretch, by using Eurobalises.

If you meant ATB+, I don't understand, because it is only installed on one section and is not and will not be implemented anywhere else.

If you meant ATB-VV, I partially agree. I don't agree, because it does improve safety a bit, but I do agree, because it's both not failsafe and they're investing money in a system that will only be used for short period of time (around 10 years). Instead they could have gone the Belgian way and used a system similar to TBL1+. Then the beacons could have been reused for ERTMS in the future.


----------



## Wilhem275

Glad to see my fantasies are not so unreal :lol: I was actually thinking about the evolution of the Zoetermeerlijn, from rail to metro.
Yep, the future connection at Schiedam Centrum is clear on the map, I was in doubt if the line was headed somewhere else with an overpass (e.g. in Schiedam Noord).
In OSM the project is clear.

I didn't figure out the "international fashion" of the old Hoekse lijn... My idea was that ships made it to Rotterdam center.



AlexNL said:


> 2) The double tracking is only envisages for Rijswijk - Delft-Zuid. For the foreseeable future, Delft-Zuid - Schiedam will remain 2 tracks.


That is a bit weird: they put a heavy effort in building 4 tracks in dense urban environments, then only 7 km of 2-tracks is left, in the middle of nothing, where building would be cheaper.
Probably the explanation is that, having no stops at all between Delft-Zuid and Schiedam Centrum, all trains keep the same speed and no additional capacity is needed.

This seems confirmed in http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_Kethel
Which is also why Kethel/Spaland will not have a station, at the moment.
Still, looked out of context, leaving just 7 km out of 85 seems weird...


Speaking about unlikely new stations, I read of Zoetermeer people asking for a HSL-stop, probably linked to the new BleiZo station. Nice on paper, but I don't see which services may use it: too tiny for HS services to stop there, too expensive to have a dedicated frequent service (ERTMS, no other stops between Schipol and Rotterdam).
It would only serve as a link from Zoetermeer to Rotterdam and Schipol (and maybe Gouda to Schipol)...

The only effective point is that Zoetermeer is close to Rotterdam but has good connections just with Den Haag. Probably an extension of RandstadRail 4 from BleiZo to Pijnacker-Rotterdam will be enough, if needed.


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## da_scotty

^^ 
This was placed by accident a few years ago but give's a good few of the future situation.


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## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/...ached-on-e625m-arnheim-station-redevelopment/
> 
> *Topping out milestone reached on €625m Arnheim station redevelopment*
> 29 JAN, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contractors delivering the renewed Arnhem passenger rail terminal in the Netherlands have held a topping out ceremony to mark another significant milestone in the project.
> 
> Described as one of the largest development projects in the city for 70 years, the new station will provide the city with a modern railway station capable of accommodating the 110,000 passengers expected to use the terminal each day by 2020.
> 
> ProRail, the Municipality of Arnhem and NS (Dutch Railways) are redeveloping the station and its surrounding area from designs drawn up by architect UNStudio and consultancy Arup.
> 
> The project, which will cost in the region of €625 million, is being funded by the Municipality of Arnhem, NS, the Ministry of Infrastructure and the Environment, province of Gelderland and the Arnhem Nijmegen City Region.
> 
> Construction work is expected to be complete by the end of 2015.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Good. That claustrophobic bus station at Arnhem CS is very third-worldish and uncomfortable. It looks dirty and unhealthy.


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## Wilhem275

Yep, the first time I was in Arnhem I found that place horrible. Some parts of the new station were already completed and gave me a very good impression.


Some more questions (yes, in these days I'm on a Dutch-railway-random-spree...).

1) Once someone posted here an unofficial map of the IC network. Similar to the map of Wikipedia but much nicer and more clear, with a smoother style of the lines.
Googled that, but I can't find it around.

2) Is there also a map of the Sprinter network? Or maybe a map of the whole NS service, at least for main routes?
I'm trying to figure out how the infrastructure is actually used.

3) This is personal :heart: 
My first trip to NL was in 1991, I was 5 years old, and it is probably the very first "big travel" I can remember. Some images are still stuck in my mind like it was yesterday, and this is why I feel a connection with the country.

My first memory of a Dutch train is a bit confused.
We were on an embankment, the sea on one side, a terminal rail station on the other. I think I have identified this as Enkhuizen station.








http://www.panoramio.com/photo/12720851

Now, the train had the typical rounded nose of Dutch trains, but I can't decide between a Mat '64 and a Hondekop.

Which of the two was used, in 1991's Enkhuizen?

This site states that both were used, but only Mat '64 on a regular basis.









22/07/1991... could be it.


----------



## Momo1435

I think you would be interested in this map.
http://www.treinreiziger.nl/userfiles/image/artikel/pdf/spoorkaart_2014_A4.pdf

http://www.spoorkaart2014.nl/

You can find the map of the IC routes here, but it's from the 2013 timetable.
http://www.rover.nl/actueel/nieuwsarchief/270-ic-dienstregeling-2013-in-kaart-gebracht


As for the train in Enkhuizen, it probably was a Mat '64 since that was commonly used around that time. As the picture shows the emplacement in the station was still the original situation, since then new tracks were added for trains to be parked. You couldn't have seen one of the Mat '54 Hondekop EMU's parked at the station waiting for the afternoon rush hour services to start.

The only other station that you could have been was Vlissingen, there


----------



## Wilhem275

About the maps: oh yeah! 

My parents confirmed we stopped in Enkhuizen, I don't think we went to Zeeland.
You put me a bit in doubt with Vlissingen (also there is no Street View there), but the memory is of a very minimal station (as Enkhuizen was back then) and the train coming from the left side, from a p.o.v. with the sea roughly behind my back.
I even remember the wooden fence seen in the picture, but weirdly with sand instead of grass (about this I must be wrong, the picture is set in the right time span).
Well, we all know how imprecise those childhood memories can be, sometimes closer to a dream, but I think we got it 

So, my first Dutch train was a Mat '64. Know I should ride one before they're retired from service...


----------



## AlexNL

If you want to see some more Dutch rolling stock which is soon to become extinct, be sure to check out the Enschede - Zwolle and Zwolle - Kampen lines. These lines run with DM'90, the last remaining DMU's with Dutch railways. These lines will soon fall under the supervision of the province of Overijssel that intends to electrify them and put them out for tender.

Other rolling stock which you might like is the DD-AR (the 2nd generation double deck car) which NedTrain is currently refurbishing to become NID (a.k.a. DDZ), meant for intercity services. However, in a few months some original, unrefurbished DD-AR will re-enter service to serve in some crowded local trains in the following composition: locomotive (class 1700), B coach (2nd class), AB coach (1st and 2nd class), Bs coach (2nd class and control car).

The unrefurbished DD-AR will then most likely remain in service until 2019/2020.


----------



## Wilhem275

Actually I already used unrefurbished DD-AR. I happen to find mDDM the weirdest train I've ever seen :lol:

So far I travelled with these NS materials:
- SLT on Delft - Den Haag CS
- DD-AR on Haarlem Spaarnwoude - Amsterdam CS and Leiden - Den Haag HS
- (probably also the same DD, but with 17xx loco)
- VIRM on Amsterdam - Utrecht and Amsterdam CS - Leiden via Schiphol
- ICE3M on Utrecht - Köln (via Eindhoven - Venlo, back then)
- refurbished ICM on Den Haag CS - Utrecht

What I'm gonna miss is the viaduct in Delft. The image of those VIRMs taking off and flying over the city was funny.
(probably Delftenaren are not gonna miss it at all)


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> About the maps: oh yeah!
> 
> My parents confirmed we stopped in Enkhuizen, I don't think we went to Zeeland.
> You put me a bit in doubt with Vlissingen (also there is no Street View there), but the memory is of a very minimal station (as Enkhuizen was back then) and the train coming from the left side, from a p.o.v. with the sea roughly behind my back.
> I even remember the wooden fence seen in the picture, but weirdly with sand instead of grass (about this I must be wrong, the picture is set in the right time span).
> Well, we all know how imprecise those childhood memories can be, sometimes closer to a dream, but I think we got it
> 
> So, my first Dutch train was a Mat '64. Know I should ride one before they're retired from service...


If it helps: you can't really see the sea from Vlissingen station, you have to walk a bit. From one of the platforms, you can get a glimpse of the seaport but only if you really stretch your neck. If you exit the station through the front doors, you walk into a parking lot and behind that is a ****. You have to climb that first before you actually see the water behind it.


----------



## Wilhem275

Which brings me back into doubt since I remember we were on a **** when I saw the train :lol:
I guess I earned a trip to Vlissingen and Enkhuizen, the most cosmopolitan and vibrant towns of all the Netherlands :lol:

Actually, today I began looking for info on Erasmus programs... it's still a draft, but I may end up studying in NL next year...


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> Actually I already used unrefurbished DD-AR. I happen to find mDDM the weirdest train I've ever seen :lol:
> 
> So far I travelled with these NS materials:
> - SLT on Delft - Den Haag CS
> - DD-AR on Haarlem Spaarnwoude - Amsterdam CS and Leiden - Den Haag HS
> - (probably also the same DD, but with 17xx loco)
> - VIRM on Amsterdam - Utrecht and Amsterdam CS - Leiden via Schiphol
> - ICE3M on Utrecht - Köln (via Eindhoven - Venlo, back then)
> - refurbished ICM on Den Haag CS - Utrecht
> 
> What I'm gonna miss is the viaduct in Delft. The image of those VIRMs taking off and flying over the city was funny.
> (probably Delftenaren are not gonna miss it at all)


So there's still plenty of trains for you to discover 
- SGMm, the previous generator of sprinter trains. Can be seen a lot in the Randstad area
- DM'90, seen around Zwolle
- ICRm coaches, can be seen in some intercity services (Roosendaal - Zwolle, Den Haag - Venlo) with a class 1700 locomotive; as domestic 'high speed train' branded Intercity direct, hauled by a Traxx; in international non high speed services to Belgium, also Traxx hauled
- Perhaps Thalys high speed trains?

There are some other operators:
- Syntus between Hengelo and Oldenzaal, using Coradia LINT
- Veolia on Maastricht - Heerlen and Roermond - Venlo - Nijmegen, using Stadler built GTW trains
- Arriva on Dordrecht - Geldermalsen, Tiel - Arnhem, Arnhem - Winterswijk, Winterswijk - Zutphen, Zwolle - Emmen, and nearly all non-intercity services in Groningen and Friesland. All running with different versions of GTW
- Arriva on Almelo - Mariënberg with refurbished Coradia LINT
- Connexxion on Amersfoort - Ede-Wageningen using custom built FTD Protos EMUs (and 1 GTW)
- DB to Germany from Enschede and Heerlen, using TALENT
- SNCB to Belgium from Roosendaal and Maastricht using MS80 



Wilhem275 said:


> Actually, today I began looking for info on Erasmus programs... it's still a draft, but I may end up studying in NL next year...


Welcome


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> Which brings me back into doubt since I remember we were on a **** when I saw the train :lol:
> I guess I earned a trip to Vlissingen and Enkhuizen, the most cosmopolitan and vibrant towns of all the Netherlands :lol:


If you do end up studying here, a summer's day in Vlissingen and Middelburg can be very nice. I grew up in Middelburg, I'll be glad to give you some tips.

Don't go there in winter, though. 



> Actually, today I began looking for info on Erasmus programs... it's still a draft, but I may end up studying in NL next year...


Then you're my opposite, I went to Italy for my Erasmus. 

Choose wisely, you don't wanna end up studying in Tilburg (ugly, not much to do) or something.


----------



## ihabor

*Rail Magazines published in Netherlands*

Hello All,

I wonder if you know some Rail Magazines published in Netherlands which are of interest for the professionals in the field. 

Thanks a lot for your help!

I. Habor


----------



## AlexNL

There are a few magazines I know of, there might be more.

1) Rail Magazine
2) SpoorPro
3) OVPro (like SpoorPro, but then for everything public transport related)


----------



## Suburbanist

*Fare gate tests in Rotterdam Alexander*

Starting next Monday, for several months the fare gates at Rotterdam Alexander will be closed on weekends all day and weekdays off-peak. Passengers will open the fare gates by checking out on their OV-Chipkaarts as they currently do already. 

Staff will be on site at all times to open the gates for those that are legally travelling without an OV-Chipkaart. Tests have been conducted in Woerden since 20/01.


----------



## radamfi

Suburbanist said:


> Starting next Monday, for several months the fare gates at Rotterdam Alexander will be closed on weekends all day and weekdays off-peak. Passengers will open the fare gates by checking out on their OV-Chipkaarts as they currently do already.
> 
> Staff will be on site at all times to open the gates for those that are legally travelling without an OV-Chipkaart. Tests have been conducted in Woerden since 20/01.


http://www.ns.nl/reizigers/ovchipkaart#211-05



> Op dit station start op maandag 17 februari 2014 een lange proef van een aantal maanden, waarbij tijdens de ochtend- en avondspits alle poorten alleen openen als u met uw OV-chipkaart in- en uitcheckt. Heeft u geen OV-chipkaart, dan helpt een van onze medewerkers u graag door de poorten.
> Station Woerden was het eerste station waar we sinds 20 januari 2014 eveneens zijn gestart met deze proef. Meerdere stations volgen dit jaar. We houden u op de hoogte.


I understand that to mean that the gates will only be in operation in the peak hours.


----------



## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> http://www.ns.nl/reizigers/ovchipkaart#211-05
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that to mean that the gates will only be in operation in the peak hours.


Yes, I just mis-translated it too quickly 

I don't know what happens, sometimes I get betrayed by writing the opposite words in English to what I really wanted to write from Dutch (spits)

If they are using the formal NS peak-time definitions, that means gates closed from 6.30-9.00 and 16.30-19.00


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> Welcome





Slagathor said:


> Then you're my opposite, I went to Italy for my Erasmus.
> 
> Choose wisely, you don't wanna end up studying in Tilburg (ugly, not much to do) or something.


Well, thank you, I'm still waiting for more details about the program, but I'm really looking forward into it.
My favourite city is Den Haag, so it wouldn't be bad ending up in Delft... but let's see what will be the choice.

So, here's my usual bunch of questions about Dutch railways :lol:

1) I'm trying to find out what a double white light signal means, as it can be seen at 28:52 in this video. Usually one for each track, often before particular places with bad visibility (tunnels, bridges, curves).
It can't be an info for drivers, because in that position it may be hidden behind other trains. And it comes in many different shapes and positions.
I guess it may be a warning of incoming trains made for workmen who must operate close to traffic; it's also similar to the one used for service grade-crossing in main stations.
Sometimes they're blinking, sometimes they're not, I can't get the logic behind them.


2) Singelgracht Aansluiting: I wonder why all the three main connections (Haarlem<->CS; Zaandam<->Utrecht; Schiphol<->Weesp/Watergraafsmeer) are designed with switches turned "on the wrong side":









(The original drawing comes from www.sporenplan.nl)
Green arrows represent the route followed by almost any train passing by Westerpark, red arrows are routes I've never seen in use (not even by the Enkhuizen - Amersfoort service, the only one not following those three main routes).
Modifying this setup to straight routes wouldn't lead to any major increase of speed, since everything calls at both Centraal and Sloterdijk, but still it's unusual to design a "permanently diverging routes" setup; and it's not good for comfort and maintenance.
Maybe the original planning of services was different? Or maybe that's just the kind of stuff which evolves randomly in time, with new bits added here and there...

In fact, I see it's a tradition of NS to design stations where straight switches are not a priority (Hilversum is a mess, IMHO).


3) In the OV SAAL documentation I can't find anything about evolutions of Weesp station (just a reminder about general optimization after 2020).
I think that plant is a serious bottleneck for Flevolijn, since ICs can't overtake Sprinters and sometimes Sprinters have to stop for a long time for the interchange.
Look at this situation (@27:40): Sprinter to Almere is waiting for the other one to come, and behind it there already is an IC waiting... and it will probably stay behind the Sprinter at least until Almere Centrum.
Actually, from Almere Centrum, there is no space for overtaking until Muiderpoort or A'dam Zuid (tomorrow, A'dam RAI), which means an IC could build up a lot of delay. The alternative is to occupy the Hilversum tracks, which is not good for both lines capacity.

Now, since adding two outer tracks at Weesp doesn't seem a heavy work (just widening the foot subway and closing a gap in the Stationsweg underpass), I would do that immediately; even before doubling the Ringspoorbahn.
What I have in mind is a sort of simplified Leiden Centraal.

Did I just miss this info, or there are really no plans to do that?

Thanks, as usual  it's a fascinating network.


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> Then you're my opposite, I went to Italy for my Erasmus.
> 
> Choose wisely, you don't wanna end up studying in Tilburg (ugly, not much to do) or something.


What is wrong with Tilburg :angry: ?

In any case, except for Groningen, Maastricht or Twente universities, pretty much any other is withing reach of the rest of country with easy transport links.

Here at our university, some exchange students are taking advantage of a NS subscription plan that allows them to travel for free on weekends for € 45/month. The uni. even recommends that for year-long exchange students.


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> Now, since adding two outer tracks at Weesp doesn't seem a heavy work (just widening the foot subway and closing a gap in the Stationsweg underpass), I would do that immediately; even before doubling the Ringspoorbahn.
> What I have in mind is a sort of simplified Leiden Centraal.
> 
> Did I just miss this info, or there are really no plans to do that?
> 
> Thanks, as usual  it's a fascinating network.


I think Pro-Rail prefers the approach of having trains running on time, avoiding overpass tracks/sidings. Many busy railways don't have outer tracks altogether. The usual practice is just to dispatch the ICs and hold up the regional trains, should need arise.


----------



## Wilhem275

That is an understandable policy, applied to timetable design (overtakes can become a nasty affair); but in practice, having such frequent traffic and no buffer areas means having a disaster every time a mosquito flies in the wrong direction... I mean, the concept of "holding up regional trains" has some limits, when you're supposed to send a Sprinter out every 10-15 minutes with an IC in the middle.
We're talking about a 30 km single track (per direction), with 6 stops in the middle; nothing terrible _per se_, but with 8 trains/h (which are supposed to increase in near future) it begins to trigger an alarm.

Given the fact that they're building a huge project around A'dam Zuid, I would spend a few more millions and snap in half that 30 km section with a simple trick 

You may fill in more/closer trains, or be less bonded when building timetables, or fear less domino effects.
Btw, at Weesp the overtake action is actually meant to happen by timetable (for the Hilversum line); while Flevolijn is expected to become more crowded.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I agree. Many sectors need 4-tracking.


----------



## da_scotty

> I'm trying to find out what a double white light signal means, as it can be seen at 28:52 in this video. Usually one for each track, often before particular places with bad visibility (tunnels, bridges, curves).
> It can't be an info for drivers, because in that position it may be hidden behind other trains. And it comes in many different shapes and positions.
> I guess it may be a warning of incoming trains made for workmen who must operate close to traffic; it's also similar to the one used for service grade-crossing in main stations.
> Sometimes they're blinking, sometimes they're not, I can't get the logic behind them.


They are there for that exact point, they flicker when that block section is occupied, and are on when the track is free! They look like this:









The other blinking lights are indeed for service crossings at large stations, they work exactly the same but look different:


----------



## Wilhem275

Sorry for the total OT*, just a quick update about my Erasmus.
Good news are that Den Haag uni have Economics courses included in the Erasmus program. This would be just perfect for me.
Bad news... it's the _only one_ regarding Economics in the whole NL. So, the competition will be harsh, my chances are not that good 

*We don't have a Roadside Rest Area thread in the Railways section, we should have one, named "The Loco Shed" or something like that...


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> Sorry for the total OT*, just a quick update about my Erasmus.
> Good news are that Den Haag uni have Economics courses included in the Erasmus program. This would be just perfect for me.
> Bad news... it's the _only one_ regarding Economics in the whole NL. So, the competition will be harsh, my chances are not that good
> 
> *


Aren't your university affiliated with Tilburg, Nijgmen, Rotterdam or Maastrich unis? 

Beware, also, that here in the Netherlands they have usually separate programs (and tracks) for Econometrics and Applied Math.


----------



## 3737

Today the new rebuild Rotterdam central station was officially opened by king Willem-Alexander. It is the first station that is finished of a big rebuilding project of the most important stations of the Netherlands transforming them into new public transport hubs.

The old station dated from 1957.


















The new station

















King Willem-Alexander with mayor Aboutaleb of Rotterdam under the new roof.


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## Arnorian

Has this been posted before?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Neat.

I didn't realize local trains Heerlen-Sittard were hourly only.


----------



## cees

And I still do not understand why there isn't a northern connection along the afsluitdijk. I understand that the connection itself is not that prior because there's a weak economic connection with both parts of the country. But i assume that a northern rail connection like that could improve both sides in increase markets, increase availebility in workforce, tourism, jobs, etc. 
Also i can figure that a railway track along the **** shouldnt be to costly. They are even planning to strengten the ****, why not drop a railway track along, I asume with no cost for buying out grounds would make this a relatively cheap project. while it covers a huge gap in railway connection in the netherlands. Instead they are investing in the huge high speed line connections wich arent that helpfull for local economies. such a connection could save hours of traveltime between certain places while the high speed connections are only saving minutes.


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## Slagathor

You can forget about that. There were two options to improve rail connections between the Randstad (Amsterdam and Schiphol, mostly) and the North and they were:
1) a railway across the Afsluitdijk, or
2) a railway through Flevoland connecting Lelystad to Zwolle.

They chose the latter.


----------



## cees

I know that this is not going to happen. But idea is not to improve the connection of the randstad and the north. But to connect the north, with the other north. on both sides they are dealing with a weakening economy. and to connect both sides could strengten both sides. just to make the north more compateble and sustaineble.


----------



## Suburbanist

Fryslan doesn't have a really weak economy. As far as rural regions go, the whole Netherlands is quite strong by European standards. However, its population loss is, up to a point, inevitable as society inches ever towards an economy where most jobs are service-related and concentrated on cities, whereas farming, fishing, greenhouse agriculture, modern wind farms and the like don't employ much people with technological changes they see.

I support faster rail link ZWolle-Leeuwarden and a high-speed rail link Zwolle-Groningen (and then to Germany - Bremen  )


----------



## Surel

Slagathor said:


> You can forget about that. There were two options to improve rail connections between the Randstad (Amsterdam and Schiphol, mostly) and the North and they were:
> 1) a railway across the Afsluitdijk, or
> 2) a railway through Flevoland connecting Lelystad to Zwolle.
> 
> They chose the latter.


And it is quite a pity, because the distance between Amsterdam and Breda is around the same as between Amsterdam and Leeuwarden.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Slagathor said:


> You can forget about that. There were two options to improve rail connections between the Randstad (Amsterdam and Schiphol, mostly) and the North and they were:
> 1) a railway across the Afsluitdijk, or
> 2) a railway through Flevoland connecting Lelystad to Zwolle.


Uh, no, a route via the Afsluitdijk was never an option.
The other big options besides the Hanzelijn via Lelystad and Zwolle, were several versions of a "Zuiderzeelijn", which would connect Lelystad to the north via Heerenveen instead of Zwolle.


----------



## AlexNL

When the Afsluitdijk was built a railway was certainly an option. The engineers reserved space for a double tracked railway line next to the motorway. However, when the motorway was doubled (somewhere in the seventies?) they used that space as it was apparent at that time that the railway would never be built since a route through Flevoland was more desirable.


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## da_scotty

In the meanwhile the first generation of VIRM Doubledeck-EMU's will be renovated, new interiors improved aerodynamics and better enviromental gimmics! They will look like the NID trains! 








funny detail, the old catering lifts will be converted to bagage space!


----------



## Suburbanist

What was the last Dutch train series that was manufactured in Netherlands?


----------



## da_scotty

Mat.64 (Plan V/T ) I believe, and the Mailtrain Motorpost(MP) . It was build by Werkspoor. After that a lot of the body work was done at Talbot in Achen, with finishing (electrical/interior) work in the Netherlands


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## M-NL

In fact only plan T (mat '64 4-car sets) was entirely built by Werkspoor. Plan V (mat '64 2-car sets) was split between Werkspoor, Talbot and Düwag. This model was made between 1966 and 1976, while Werkspoor stopped rolling stock manufacture in 1972. Talbot Aachen was chosen because a lot of miners got jobs there after the coal mines in Limburg closed down. Düwag was already contracted by Werkspoor earlier because they didn't have enough capacity to build all plan V's themselves.
Come to think of it, that's a recurring theme at Werkspoor: The main reason only 25 1200 class locomotives were built, instead of the intended 75, is that Werkspoor wasn't able to build them quickly enough (and they were expensive). So NS acquired the 1100 and 1300 classes instead.


----------



## webeagle12

Dutch Traxx locomotives grounded

AT the request of manufacturer Bombardier, Netherlands Railways (NS) withdrew its entire fleet of Traxx F140 MS (class 186) multi-system locomotives from service on April 8, reportedly due to pantograph problems.

NS and the High Speed Alliance (HSA) lease 18 class 186 locomotives from Alpha Trains for use with ICRm coaches on IC-Direct (formerly Fyra) services from Amsterdam to Rotterdam and Breda. The locomotives were brought in to replace the fleet of AnsaldoBreda V250 emus, which was withdrawn last year.

The withdrawal of the class 186s means IC-Direct passengers cannot currently travel via HSL South and are forced to use slower conventional NS services on parallel routes. There is no suitable alternative rolling stock available in the Netherlands as HSL South is equipped with 25 kV 50 Hz ac electrification and ETCS Level 2.

Bombardier is reportedly investigating the pantographs and their behavior in relation to the catenary. It is not clear yet how long the Traxx locomotives will remain out of service and when IC-Direct will resume operations.

NS has ordered 19 class 186 locomotives from Bombardier, which will replace the leased units on IC-Direct services.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/locomotives/dutch-traxx-locomotives-grounded.html


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## AlexNL

Tomorrow NS will operate an hourly service as some locomotives have been cleared for service. Somewhere along the day it will become known if thursday's services will be affected.


----------



## M-NL

It could be an aerodynamic problem: Does anyone know of another country where the TRAXX is used at 160 km/h with the front pantograph up? 

All other Dutch locomotive classes have a speed limit when using the front pantograph, because at higher speed the air flow causes an increased contact pressure, that could cause damage to the wire or the contact strip.


----------



## Wilhem275

Why does NS use the front panto on the 186s?


----------



## M-NL

Because out of the 4 pantographs only one can be used for 25 kV. (Another one 15 kV and 2 for DC)


----------



## MarcVD

Why two pantos for DC ?


----------



## DingeZ

Actually, the problem is in the DC pantos. These are raised and lowered very frequently, about 80 times a day.


----------



## XAN_

MarcVD said:


> Why two pantos for DC ?


Because DC network use lower voltage (1,5 kV or 3 kV), so to get the same power (=watts) compared to AC systems (15 kV or 25 kV), it needs more current (=more Ampers), and more current need more contact surface, unless you want to burn the wire from all those excessive heat, caused by passing big current through a single panto. When using 2 pantos, current is split evenly, every panto got only half of current, which is ok.


----------



## MarcVD

I did some research and found indeed some picture of Fyra locs starting with two pantos on the wire.
I suppose the front panto gets dropped as soon as the train is started. Never happens in Belgium,
though, and all the pictures I found were under NS (i.e. 1.5 kV) catenary. Under 3 kV and with the
wire section used, this is definitely not needed. It was with old locs (DC serial traction motors and
resistances) but the new ones have only one DC panto anyway, hence my surprise when I saw two
DC pantos mentioned.


----------



## Wilhem275

Also, I guess the 25 kV panto has a load control (usually needed on HSLs), while the DC ones don't, hence some problems they may face under heavy duty.




webeagle12 said:


> NS has ordered 19 class 186 locomotives from Bombardier, which will replace the leased units on IC-Direct services.


Since these locos will have to use the HSLs for a long time and serve only that purpose, I don't understand why not buying 200 km/h machines. They can buy faster coaches from DB, or buy new ones later... or even adapt the existing ones.


----------



## Wilhem275

OFF TOPIC (sorry)

Breaking news! Against all odds, I'll have my Erasmus at Den Haag University :banana: :banana: :banana:

Cheers to all the Dutch forumers :cheers1:

/OT


----------



## AlexNL

Congrats, and welcome to the Netherlands! 

Regarding 200 kph machines: NS bought the exact same locomotives as are currently running on HSL-Zuid. This means the locos can quickly enter service (upon being delivered). 200 kph locomotives have a different construction and would thus require the entire approval process, something which can take many months. The new locomotives are only intended as a stop-gap solution until the new intercity rolling stock (IC200) arrives which is intended to run 200 kph (some politicians want NS to go faster than that).

Besides, NS does not own any coaches that can do 200 kph either so having locos that can is a waste of time and money.


----------



## Wilhem275

Thanks 

I knew about the coaches, but I didn't know about the new IC200 stock plan: in that case I agree there's no need to buy new faster locos. I believed the 186s+coaches were meant as a much longer term solution.


----------



## AlexNL

Yes and no. The 186+coaches solution is a stopgap solution for domestic traffic. IC200 trains are expected to arrive starting 2021 (or sooner if possible). For international travel, the 186+coaches solution will remain in use until at least 2025 as going faster is nonsense with the services they will run on (Amsterdam - Schiphol - The Hague HS - Delft - Rotterdam - Breda - Noorderkempen - Antwerp Luchtbal - Antwerp Central, Antwerp Berchem, Mechelen, Brussels Airport, Brussels North, Brussels Central and Brussels South). 

The only place where coaches going 200 km/h would make sense is between Rotterdam (Barendrecht) and Breda, and between Breda and Noorderkempen. The time gained is just very limited due to the short distances.


----------



## M-NL

DingeZ said:


> Actually, the problem is in the DC pantos. These are raised and lowered very frequently, about 80 times a day.


That surprises me, because on the old resistor locos, for the reasons described earlier, also 2 pantographs were used without any durability issues.


----------



## XAN_

MarcVD said:


> I did some research and found indeed some picture of Fyra locs starting with two pantos on the wire.
> I suppose the front panto gets dropped as soon as the train is started. Never happens in Belgium,
> though, and all the pictures I found were under NS (i.e. 1.5 kV) catenary. Under 3 kV and with the
> wire section used, this is definitely not needed. It was with old locs (DC serial traction motors and
> resistances) but the new ones have only one DC panto anyway, hence my surprise when I saw two
> DC pantos mentioned.


It makes perfect sense - loco will draw more amps under 1.5 kV than under 3 kV. And the moment when the current is the highest - is starting from standstill.


----------



## DingeZ

Wilhem275 said:


> OFF TOPIC (sorry)
> 
> Breaking news! Against all odds, I'll have my Erasmus at Den Haag University :banana: :banana: :banana:
> 
> Cheers to all the Dutch forumers :cheers1:
> 
> /OT


That's weird, because Den Haag is wildly infamous for being the largest Dutch city without a university.

On topic:
Yes, all locos (as far as I know) in the Netherlands use two pantographs when departing. The thing I noticed with the TRAXX is that the pantographs lower quite harshly. You can hear the them almost smacking down.

Here at 0:16 you can hear the pantograph falling onto the roof:


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> It was with old locs (DC serial traction motors and resistances) but the new ones have only one DC panto anyway, hence my surprise when I saw two
> DC pantos mentioned.


Well there is a combination of 2 effects to consider: the current drawn from the overhead wire, combined with the collector width. It could just be that the TRAXX has slightly narrower collector strips and thus requires 2 pantos up under 1.5 kV. Or maybe it is not even required, but to be on the safe side it's a function they included in the programming.

This problem is proof again that the Netherlands should change to 3 kV DC or 25 kV AC asap. The limits of the current system are reached.


----------



## Suburbanist

It should change to 25kV 50Hz indeed. 

They could start electrifying lines that are used in conjunction to HSL according to new plans.


----------



## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> It should change to 25kV 50Hz indeed.


Such a project has already been considered. It finally was rejected because of the costs. Basically, you would need to

1) increase clearances, as the insulation distances for 25 kV AC are much 
bigger than for 1.5 kV DC, so review all bridges, make them higher or lower 
the tracks
2) change all catenary insulators
3) change all track circuits used for signalling
4) install new power sub-stations
5) change of adapt all rolling stock (not only locos and EMUs but also 
coaches because of the power supply for heating/HVAC/lights...) 

Even for a whealthy country like the Netherlands, it's unaffordable. Even as
a, let's say, 10 years plan. And I'm even not counting the transition costs (i.e. how do you operate while the network is half DC, half AC).


----------



## DingeZ

That's why ProRail and NS have chosen to go for 3kV. As there are no plans to run Intercity's at more than 200km/h apart from the HSL, 3kV is sufficient. Actually, the reason to upgrade to 3kV is mainly to make power regeneration more efficient.
A difference however with Belgium, is that the maximum amperage is Belgium is set around 2kA, while the Dutch overhead wires can take up to 4.8kA. If it is converted to 3kV but the maximum amperage is set equal, then it is truly capable of powering more trains.


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> OFF TOPIC (sorry)
> 
> Breaking news! Against all odds, I'll have my Erasmus at Den Haag University :banana: :banana: :banana:
> 
> Cheers to all the Dutch forumers :cheers1:
> 
> /OT


Congratulations! If you need any advice, send me a PM.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Such a project has already been considered. It finally was rejected because of the costs. Basically, you would need to
> 
> 1) increase clearances, as the insulation distances for 25 kV AC are much
> bigger than for 1.5 kV DC, so review all bridges, make them higher or lower
> the tracks
> 2) change all catenary insulators
> 3) change all track circuits used for signalling
> 4) install new power sub-stations
> 5) change of adapt all rolling stock (not only locos and EMUs but also
> coaches because of the power supply for heating/HVAC/lights...)
> 
> Even for a whealthy country like the Netherlands, it's unaffordable. Even as
> a, let's say, 10 years plan. And I'm even not counting the transition costs (i.e. how do you operate while the network is half DC, half AC).


Of all the arguments only the one about signalling make sense to me. 

France has been running a network that is partly DC, partly AC for decades now. Belgium is as wel. So are many other countries. The problem of dealing with different overhead voltages has been so thoroughly solved that SNCF doesn't mind if a train has to change voltage for just a few km. 

As to the cleareance being a problem, why do I see AC catenary in low tunnels, just barely below the cealing in many places?


----------



## Raphael_SBBR

DingeZ said:


> That's weird, because Den Haag is wildly infamous for being the largest Dutch city without a university.


Leiden University has a new campus in Den Haag. Also there are the art academy and the university of applied sciences.


----------



## M-NL

K_ said:


> France has been running a network that is partly DC, partly AC for decades now. Belgium is as wel. So are many other countries. The problem of dealing with different overhead voltages has been so thoroughly solved that SNCF doesn't mind if a train has to change voltage for just a few km.


The problem NS sees is in the way rolling stock is managed. They basically want to be able to use any rolling stock anywhere anytime on the Dutch network. When you get into a situation where you have DC, AC and AC/DC rolling stock they fear they loose to much flexibility, change all rolling stock to AC/DC is deemed to expensive.

The stupid thing is: the Netherlands started of with 10 kV 25Hz, then considered 15 kV 16.7 Hz, but eventually decided on 1.5 kV, because it was easier to implement. They figured they could easily change it later if they needed to. How wrong they were.


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> Of all the arguments only the one about signalling make sense to me.


I see in you answer an argument regarding clearances. I do not see any
reasoning for dismissing the 3 others...



K_ said:


> France has been running a network that is partly DC, partly AC for decades now. Belgium is as wel. So are many other countries. The problem of dealing with different overhead voltages has been so thoroughly solved that SNCF doesn't mind if a train has to change voltage for just a few km.


Yes indeed. But :

- France has this kind of network since decades and plans to keep it that 
way. So they developped, over the years, a fleet of bi-courant rolling stock
that can be used under the two systems. The NS rolling stock is, on the 
other end, mostly entirely DC only. If they plan a full conversion to AC over,
let's say, 10 years, it means that for that period, they would need at least
half of their fleet capable to run under both AC and DC, and after those 10 
years, a fleet entirely converted to AC. Railway rolling stock is usually built
for la lifespan of 30-40 years... How do you manage that ?

- Belgium is a special case, the lines with AC traction being :
-- Either at the periphery of the network and before electrification,
exploited with elderly equipment that needed renewal anyway ;
-- Or with new capabilities (200 km/h) that required new rolling stock
in any case.



K_ said:


> As to the cleareance being a problem, why do I see AC catenary in low tunnels, just barely below the cealing in many places?


You can't go against physics. The insulation distance in air needed to avoid 
arcing is proportional to the voltage. So if for 1.5 kV we need 5 cm, for
25 kV you'll need 1 m...

In any case, this project would require massive investment - just try to 
figure out how much it would require to replace the whole rolling stock - and 
the money to do that just isn't there...


----------



## MarcVD

DingeZ said:


> the maximum amperage is Belgium is set around 2kA


2400 A in the older installations, 4000 A in the ones developped during the last 10 years. And this is per train, not per track, and has nothing to do with
the catenary itself. The limitation comes from the rectifiers in the sub-stations. The SNCB and NS overhead wires have more or less the same equivalent
section, so the current they can accept is more or less the same too. But if you want to keep the same maximum current at 3kV that you have at 1.5kV now,
it means you will have to double the power output of the rectifiers in the sub-stations. That will not come cheap.


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> The problem NS sees is in the way rolling stock is managed. They basically want to be able to use any rolling stock anywhere anytime on the Dutch network. When you get into a situation where you have DC, AC and AC/DC rolling stock they fear they loose to much flexibility, change all rolling stock to AC/DC is deemed to expensive.


If that's the main problem they see, then I don't understand why chosing 3kV
instead is considered as a better solution. Change all rolling stock to 1.5/3 kV
is not going to be much cheaper than going for an AC/DC fleet. Remember,
adapting a 3kV loco to accept also 1.5 kV is easy (SNCB did it many times),
but the opposite is not true at all (and as a proof of that, NS never did it).

It is however much cheaper to go for 3kV than to 25kV on the infrastructure
side : insulation distances do not change that much, signalling equipment 
remains compatible... That's where you win.


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> 2400 A in the older installations, 4000 A in the ones developped during the last 10 years. And this is per train, not per track, and has nothing to do with
> the catenary itself.


Are you sure you didn't mean the other way around? That's at least how it is in the Netherlands. All trains together in one power section cannot use more then 4000A, otherwise the substation will shut down.



MarcVD said:


> If that's the main problem they see, then I don't understand why chosing 3kV instead is considered as a better solution.


The unfortunate truth is that 3kV is not at all a better solution, 25kV would be way better. However, all current requirements can be met with 3kV, at a fraction of the cost of a transition to 25kV. The current decision makers, just like happened in 1905, just don't look ahead further then a few years and are making the same mistake again, and settle for a sub optimal solution, just because it's cheaper.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> If they plan a full conversion to AC over,
> let's say, 10 years, it means that for that period, they would need at least
> half of their fleet capable to run under both AC and DC, and after those 10
> years, a fleet entirely converted to AC. Railway rolling stock is usually built
> for la lifespan of 30-40 years... How do you manage that ?


If you migrate to 3KV DC you'll need multi current capable stock as well. The thing is that multi-current AC/DC stock is easier than bi-current DC/DC stock. In fact, the way AC stock is constructed these days you get the DC capabilities almost for free. 




> You can't go against physics. The insulation distance in air needed to avoid
> arcing is proportional to the voltage. So if for 1.5 kV we need 5 cm, for
> 25 kV you'll need 1 m...


So how do some railways get away with less then 1m?


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> If you migrate to 3KV DC you'll need multi current capable stock as well. ?


Where did I say the opposite ? You're in fact saying the same as what I said myself two posts earlier



K_ said:


> The thing is that multi-current AC/DC stock is easier than bi-current DC/DC stock. In fact, the way AC stock is constructed these days you get the DC capabilities almost for free.


Totally false. The way current traction chains work is the following : first
produce DC and then ondulate it at variable tension and frequency for 3
phase motors. If the power supply is AC, you must first lower the tension
(transformer) and then rectify it to feed the DC bus. So an AC capable
traction unit will always be heavier and more expensive than a DC only one.
This is the reason why the first dual-mode sets (SNCF AGC) came first with
DC only, AC came later and only with longer units, to be able to store the
additional equipment. IF AC was free, SNCB would not have bothered ordering
two different series of Desiro Main Line units and would have ordered the 3/25
variant only. 



K_ said:


> So how do some railways get away with less then 1m?


I have no idea and would very much appreciate if you could post a picture or
a link where this is clearly visible. But I know that SNCF hesitated a lot before
going for AC electrification of the RER E tunnel between Haussmann and Magenta
(this is the first AC-electrified tunnel under Paris), because, among
others, those problems of insulation distances.


----------



## Suburbanist

When was electrification of the main lines completed in Netherlands?

Has the conversion been steam => electric or did they go like steam => diesel => electric?


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Totally false. The way current traction chains work is the following : first produce DC and then ondulate it at variable tension and frequency for 3
> phase motors. If the power supply is AC, you must first lower the tension
> (transformer) and then rectify it to feed the DC bus. So an AC capable
> traction unit will always be heavier and more expensive than a DC only one.
> This is the reason why the first dual-mode sets (SNCF AGC) came first with
> DC only, AC came later and only with longer units, to be able to store the
> additional equipment. IF AC was free, SNCB would not have bothered ordering
> two different series of Desiro Main Line units and would have ordered the 3/25
> variant only.


I'm not saying AC is free. I'm saying that with AC capable stock DC is almost free. And you have actually given a good explanation as to why: The AC gets converted in to DC anyway. So choose DC 1500V as the tension on the DC bus and all you need to add is a few switches and a pantograph.

Which is why I'm maintaining that if you are going to have a dual-mode fleet anyway, that an AC/DC vehicle is easier than a DC/DC vehicle. This because curretnly all AC vehicles use a DC bus, and thus are basically AC/DC vehicles. 
Building trains that perform well under two DC tensions is not trivial, and you'll end up buying bespoke, in stead of off-the-shelf for the next decades...


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> I have no idea and would very much appreciate if you could post a picture or
> a link where this is clearly visible. But I know that SNCF hesitated a lot before
> going for AC electrification of the RER E tunnel between Haussmann and Magenta
> (this is the first AC-electrified tunnel under Paris), because, among
> others, those problems of insulation distances.



This is in Switzerland, but this is 25kV:









This is in Croatia, again 25kV:










The last photo is interesting, because this was indeed a case of needing a solution to the problem of electrifying with 25kV in a place with very tight clearances. It appears the Furrert+Frey have solutions for that...


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## Suburbanist

^^ Is that rigid cantenary?


----------



## 3737

On other (big) news, today it was anounced that starting of 2016 ERMTS wil be introduced on only the most busiest part of the Dutch railway network. Before 2020 al the rolling stock will be equiped with ERMTS.









Purple : ERMTS level 2 will be equiped before 2028. 
Green: ERMTS is already build and (except Lelystad-Zwolle) active.
Yellow: No ERMTS.

Source: ovpro (Dutch)


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## Suburbanist

Once the advantages of ERTMS become obvious, they will start converting the rest of the network. Hopefully implementation costs will be lower by than, and so the time it takes to deploy it.

What about plans to connect Emmen with Veendam or at least extend service to Stadskanaal?


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## Momo1435

^^ It was just in the news that Arriva expects to extend the Groningen - Veendam services to Stadskanaal in 2017.
http://www.rtvnoord.nl/artikel/artikel.asp?p=119828

The Veendam - Stadskanaal line is now in use as a museum line with steam trains (S.T.A.R), it will need an upgrade to start scheduled passenger services with Arriva's GTWs.

There are local politicians that want to extend the line even further to Emmen, but those plans are just pipe-line dreams for now. A completely new line will have to be build, making it much more expensive that the extension to Stadskanaal. Which makes it very unlikely that it will ever happen, also because it will connect 2 regions with a shrinking population.


----------



## Suburbanist

I also think they should extend regular scheduled services on the Schin on Geul - Kerkrade touristic line, and maybe run Rotterdam - Arnhem express services on the Betuwe route.


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## Momo1435

Schin on Geul - Kerkrade would be interesting, but it needs to be electrified to make it worthwhile. It could be operated as a loop with trains coming from Maastricht going either clockwise or anti clockwise from Schin op Geul to Heerlen and then onwards back to Maastricht. 

But I don't think that this will happen, it makes more sense if the ZLSM starts a more regular service with old diesel trains in the high season. 


There will be no passenger trains on the Betuweroute. The is not certified for passenger operations, especially the tunnels will need serious modifications to make them safe if a large number of passengers will need to be evacuated. The number of passengers that travel directly between Rotterdam and Arnhem is also not big enough to make these extra investments in the line worthwhile. I also doubt that it will be faster then running Rotterdam - Arnhem trains via the standard route with just 1 stop in Utrecht.


----------



## AlexNL

There are some weird omissions in the map above. Nearly the entire corridor from Bad Bentheim to Amsterdam will be equipped with ERTMS, but between Amersfoort and Hilversum this will not be the case. I don't see why as adding ERTMS to that small section would complete the corridor and would make the route more suited for future trains to Germany (e.g. ICx).

Another interesting omission is Zwolle - Groningen/Leeuwarden: those lines are nearly straight and the desire exists to speed up trains to reduce travel times. By sticking to the old ATB system it won't be possible to go faster than 140 kph while it should be possible to do 200 kph with new rolling stock, 3 kV and ERTMS.


----------



## Slagathor

^^ Where do level crossings come in? I imagine they would pose a problem for 200km/h.


----------



## AlexNL

Level crossings are undesirable at any railway, but sometimes they're simply unavoidable because they're used infrequently (farmers crossing the railway to get to a different part of their land), due to a lack of space for a viaduct or tunnel, or due to a lack of funds.

I don't feel that the mere existence of a level crossing should block an upgrade of a section of track to 200 kph. The level crossing can be maintained as long as it closes on time (which means: move the train announcement sections), if necessary traffic that uses the crossing can be warned for the higher speeds by means of signs.

In the UK, there are plenty of level crossings (public footpaths that go along the railway) that only have a sign as 'protection': "Stop, look, listen. Beware of trains." There are no lights and no bells, all there is is just a flimsy tiny gate that you have to climb over. At the other side, trains may run at speeds of up to 200 kph. This situation is way more unsafe than level crossings as we know them in the Netherlands.

A more valid concern in my opinion are the platforms where through-trains don't stop, the platforms should be brought away from the through track or, if this is not possible due to space/budgetary restrains, should be widened as such that people have the ability to protect themselves from an oncoming train. Audio/visual warnings ("Please stand back from the edge of platform 1, the approaching train is not scheduled to stop at platform 1.") can help with this.

If people deliberately stay on a level crossing or step onto the tracks at a platform, the difference between passing at 140 kph or 200 kph will be very small, as will chances of survival be. The risk of the train derailing after a full-on collission with a vehicle might go up a little bit, but there is data available about these situation (level crossing for 200 kph exist abroad).


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Is that rigid cantenary?


It is. The point is that it shows that you don't need 1m long insulators with 25Kv.

The UK went for 25kV as well, and they don't exactly have a large loading gauge either...

So I think that the argument that there is no room for a 25kV catenary on the dutch network is not so strong...


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> There are some weird omissions in the map above. Nearly the entire corridor from Bad Bentheim to Amsterdam will be equipped with ERTMS, but between Amersfoort and Hilversum this will not be the case. I don't see why as adding ERTMS to that small section would complete the corridor and would make the route more suited for future trains to Germany (e.g. ICx).


Could be just a mistake in the map...


----------



## telemaxx

AlexNL said:


> There are some weird omissions in the map above. Nearly the entire corridor from Bad Bentheim to Amsterdam will be equipped with ERTMS, but between Amersfoort and Hilversum this will not be the case. I don't see why as adding ERTMS to that small section would complete the corridor and would make the route more suited for future trains to Germany (e.g. ICx).


Or is it an indication that in the future the trains Berlin-Hannover-Amsterdam will run via Utrecht?


----------



## M-NL

That would not make any sense at all. Amersfoort - Utrecht is one of the busiest 2 track sections in the Netherlands. If any route change were to happen, it would be Almelo - Zwolle - Amsterdam (you would need to electrify Wierden-Zwolle, but that was intended fot the future anyway).

Why is Hengelo-Enschede not switched to ERTMS? All other lines in the vicinity will be either ATB-NG or ERTMS, so why keep one short line at ATB-EG?

Another interesting point the map doesn't touch: Are sections with ERTMS dual-signalling or is the existing system going to be removed? In case of dual signallinging some of the limitations of ATB will remain. In an earlier report it was stated that the entire operation should start by equipping all rolling stock with an EVC + STM's, to prevent that a train without ERTMS must run on a ERTMS only line or at a speed it can't do without ERTMS.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think that map is just wrong.


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> It is. The point is that it shows that you don't need 1m long insulators with 25Kv.
> 
> The UK went for 25kV as well, and they don't exactly have a large loading gauge either...
> 
> So I think that the argument that there is no room for a 25kV catenary on the dutch network is not so strong...


You can have shorter insulators with rigid catenary because you don't have
to take in account any security margin for possible cable movements.

But this system has other drawbacks, therefore you see it only when 
enlarging the loading gauge would be unaffordable. So, essentially, in tunnels.

Under bridges, it's always cheaper and operationally better to make the bridge
higher, or lower the trackbed.

The comparison with the british network is irrelevant, because this one was
not electrified at all. Its loading gauge was so low that even a DC catenary
did not fit. The difference of cost to enlarge the loading gauge for DC or for
AC was not that big, so they took the right decision and went for AC.

But with NS the choice is more difficult because for AC you must enlarge the
loading gauge, while for 3 kV DC you don't...

The question also - which has probably not been verified yet - is to check 
whether the national power grid in the Netherlands is strong enough to support the dissymetric load caused by a 25 kV substation.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nt-approves-dutch-etcs-roll-out-strategy.html
> 
> *Government approves Dutch ETCS roll-out strategy*
> 14 Apr 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NETHERLANDS: A 10-year programme for the introduction of the European Rail Traffic Management System across the core rail network has been approved by the ruling cabinet of the coalition government.
> 
> A budget of €2·5bn had previously been agreed for ERTMS implementation up to 2028, and the programme presented by State Secretary for Infrastructure & Environment Wilma Mansveld has been designed to make the most effective use of the available funding.
> 
> ETCS is already operational on the Betuwe Route freight corridor, HSL-Zuid and the new Hanzelijn between Lelystadt and Zwolle, mainly using Level 2, but with some Level 1. It has also been installed on ProRail’s Amsterdam – Utrecht main line in conjunction with the quadrupling of that route over the past decade. Around 20% of the NS fleet has been equipped so far, according to Mansfeld.
> 
> The government has now agreed that ETCS Level 2 should be adopted as the standard train control system, replacing the increasingly obsolete ATB automatic train protection equipment, and improving capacity at the same time. All rolling stock is to be equipped with Baseline 3 compliant onboard equipment by 2022.
> 
> Under the infrastructure programme due to start in 2016, ETCS will be installed on the majority of routes in the Randstad conurbation, and on the main lines running south to Vlissingen, Roosendaal and Eidhoven, and east to Arnhem, Nijmegen, Almelo and Bad Bentheim, which are used by international freight and passenger trains. At this stage it will not be installed north of Alkmaar nor on the routes to Zwolle, Groningen and Leeuwarden.
> 
> Meanwhile, in order to ensure safety in the short term, Mansfeld said that all routes not currently equipped with ATP or where ERTMS is scheduled would be fitted with an improved ATB-Vv.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Italy once thought about 6 kV DC, but I think no engine has ever built with that system. However, at least a line electrified at (nominal) 4 kV DC did exist.



MarcVD said:


> The question also - which has probably not been verified yet - is to check whether the national power grid in the Netherlands is strong enough to support the dissymetric load caused by a 25 kV substation.


2x25 kV?


----------



## MarcVD

Coccodrillo said:


> 2x25 kV?


Does not solve the problem. From the power grid side, it is still a
non-symmetric load (a symmetric load takes the same current
from the 3 phases). It just allows to lenghten the distance between
two successive sub-stations.


----------



## Silly_Walks

dimlys1994 said:


> From Railway Gazette:
> "Around 20% of the NS fleet has been equipped so far, according to Mansfeld."



No idea where they came up with this number. As far as I know, only a few test SLT's have ERTMS built in, plus the Thalys trains, the Traxx locomotives, and I think one ICE3, which doesn't normally run in The Netherlands (I just saw it on the Hanzelijn for the 200km/h test)?


----------



## XAN_

Coccodrillo said:


> Italy once thought about 6 kV DC, but I think no engine has ever built with that system. However, at least a line electrified at (nominal) 4 kV DC did exist.


Five VL22I, one VL23I, one VL8V, four ER2V trainsets... were experientially fitted with semiconductors back in 70th, and some of them were 3 kV DC only, others were fitted for both 3 kV and 6 kV DC, and tested in a Soviet Georgia at experimental Tskhinvali-Gori line*
Reaserch revealed: 1. Soviet semiconductors for general purposes are pure disaster 2. 6 kV DC have no economical advantage over 25 kV 60 Рz AC

Further reading (russian) - http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Электроподвижной_состав_на_напряжение_6000_В
--------
*which was later razed in Georgian civil war in 90th hno:


----------



## Sopomon

Slagathor said:


> ^^ Where do level crossings come in? I imagine they would pose a problem for 200km/h.


The UK has several level crossings on the ECML which is 200 km.h operation.
Not ideal, but it is certainly achievable - and there seem to be relatively few collisions with vehicles on them too, perhaps due the the fact the people understand that they'd be obliterated if they got suck on the crossing.


----------



## M-NL

Silly_Walks said:


> No idea where they came up with this number. As far as I know, only a few test SLT's have ERTMS built in, plus the Thalys trains, the Traxx locomotives, and I think one ICE3, which doesn't normally run in The Netherlands (I just saw it on the Hanzelijn for the 200km/h test)?


They probably count SLT's as equipped because all SLT's have an EVC+STM, despite lacking some equipment such as antennea and DMI. Thus those sets can't actually run on ERTMS, but can be retrofitted relatively easy (and I wonder why they didn't fit them with DMI's in the first place.)


----------



## M-NL

XAN_ said:


> 2. 6 kV DC have no economical advantage over 25 kV 60 Рz AC


The problem was that up untill recently there were no motors capable of handling those high voltages directly, nor were there electronics. Thus you had to step down voltage first before you could actually use it.
Stepping down voltage requires something that in essence resembles a transformer. Therefore it makes more sense to use an even higher AC voltage.


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> The problem was that up untill recently there were no motors capable of handling those high voltages directly


You mean there are now ? I was not aware of that, thought that the practical
limit still was 1500V for DC serial motors and around 1000V for 3-phase. Care
to elaborate ?


----------



## M-NL

High voltage electric motors exist. But just like you state yourself: the practical limit. They're just to heavy to use in a mobile setup.

Thus you needed a control system in between to reduce the voltage to acceptable levels. Until a few years ago you could not feed 3 kV directly into the traction electronics, now you can (which greatly simplifies the circuits). 6 kV as a direct input is, as far as I know, still not possible.


----------



## XAN_

Yes, experimental trains motors were 1,5 kV high frequency (1,5 kHz) AC


----------



## Momo1435

The map in the Railwaygazette article is correct. It comes directly from the letter from the State Secretary for Infrastructure & Environment Wilma Mansveld which outlines the decision. 

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwe...system-en-railmap-3-0-nota-alternatieven.html











ERTMS was already to be equipped on the following lines
Amsterdam - Utrecht
Hanzelijn
OV SAAL: Schiphol - Lelystad 

Now it's decided to also be rolled out on the lines which are part of the High Frequency Program (PHS - Programma Hoogfrequent Spoorvervoer)
Alkmaar – Amsterdam
Amsterdam – Utrecht – Eindhoven
Schiphol – Utrecht – Arnhem/Nijmegen
Den Haag – Rotterdam – Breda
Breda - Eindhoven

+ connecting corridors:
- around Haarlem 
- Den Haag - Schiphol
- Leiden - Alphen - Woerden/Gouda 

And on the the main freight routes which are part of the EU TEN-T Network.
Rotterdam - Hengelo -> Germany
Rotterdam - Roosendaal -> Belgium


The decision to also include the line to Vlissingen is probably freight related, but it's also part of the main IC corridor on the Old Line. 


Hilversum - Amersfoort would have made sense from a connection corridor perspective. But I guess because around Amsterdam there are mostly passenger corridors and Amersfoort is on freight corridor there wasn't a direct need to connect these 2 lines.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Amsterdam-Hilversum will get ERTMS for the OV-SAAL project.

Rotterdam-Hengelo will get ERTMS, mostly for freight purposes.

Once those two projects are completed, they will see it would make sense to also implement ERTMS on that short bit Hilversum-Amersfoort.


----------



## Suburbanist

ERTMS is needed on the line to Groningen/Leeuwarden, to allow faster services to the most distant provinces.

Otherwise, Drenthe, Groningen and Friesland will keep having too long travel times to the Randstad. 

I still think a high-speed rail is needed to allow places like over there to be within "rail commuting distance for 3x/week workers" of Utrecht and Amsterdam.


----------



## Momo1435

The main reason for the roll out of the ERTMS is not to increase the speed, but to increase the capacity.


----------



## M-NL

And an increase in safety, especially to mitigate SPAD's.
I believe the intention for rolling out ERTMS on the other lines runs in parallel with the lifespan of the current systems, unless some other reason demands earlier replacement.


----------



## Slagathor

Momo1435 said:


> The decision to also include the line to Vlissingen is probably freight related, but it's also part of the main IC corridor on the Old Line.


It must be freight related. Freight trains from Vlissingen travel vast distances on the Old Line even when they're heading to Antwerp, in which case they first have to travel North to classification yard Kijfhoek near Rotterdam where they can turn South towards Antwerp, a situation that is unlikely to change any time soon. 
The provincial government of Zeeland had plans for the construction of a short stretch of railroad near Bergen op Zoom so trains coming from Vlissingen could turn South immediately, but those plans were shelved during the crisis years and have yet to be rehabilitated.


----------



## K_

Slagathor said:


> It must be freight related. Freight trains from Vlissingen travel vast distances on the Old Line even when they're heading to Antwerp, in which case they first have to travel North to classification yard Kijfhoek near Rotterdam where they can turn South towards Antwerp, a situation that is unlikely to change any time soon. The provincial government of Zeeland had plans for the construction of a short stretch of railroad near Bergen op Zoom so trains coming from Vlissingen could turn South immediately, but those plans were shelved during the crisis years and have yet to be rehabilitated.


What is keeping freight trains from reversing in Roosendaal?


----------



## Slagathor

Strict rules about freight traffic and complicated maneuvers near built-up areas.


----------



## MarcVD

Slagathor said:


> Strict rules about freight traffic and complicated maneuvers near built-up areas.


Strange... I just had a look on the station from Goggle Earth, and it seems
that this stations contains all what would be needed to make a reversal there.


----------



## Slagathor

I think it's a combination of two factors. The first is safety: Roosendaal's railway yard is right in the middle of the city and its railway station is physically part of it. The classification yard in Kijfhoek is more conveniently located.

Kijfhoek also has humps, which come in handy for certain maneuvers. Roosendaal's humps were demolished in the 1990s iirc.


----------



## Momo1435

Loco reversals are indeed prohibited in Roosendaal out of safety concerns (mostly due to a string of incidents a couple of years ago). But when only a loco reversal is needed the trains don't have to travel all the way to Kijfhoek, it can already be done at Lage Zwaluwe. It doesn't really happen that often since most freight cars from Vlissingen to Belgium do pass Kijfhoek anyway. That's because almost all mixed freight trains from DB Schenker in the Netherlands is routed via Kijfhoek. There are a couple of trains from some places in the Netherlands that are not Kijfhoek where there's enough traffic directly to Köln Gremberg or Hagen Vorhalle. Since DB Schenker doesn't have it's own yard in Belgium they don't deliver the freight-cars directly to SNCB/NMBS Logistics yard at Antwerp. 

The NMBS or any other company also don't have any scheduled direct freight trains from Vlissingen to Belgium.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...n-–-roermond-electrification.html?channel=542
> 
> *Nijmegen – Roermond electrification proposed*
> Wednesday, April 16, 2014
> 
> DURING a Parliamentary meeting on railways, Dutch secretary of state for infrastructure, Mrs. Wilma Mansveld announced that the government is willing to provide funds for the electrification of the Maas Line from Nijmegen to Roermond via Venlo.
> 
> Negotiations on the financial arrangements and implementation timetable will now be held between the Dutch government and the province of Noord-Limburg. The project is expected to cost between €150m and €175m, and Mansveld expects a final decision to be made by September.
> 
> The Dutch government has been discussing the possibility of electrifying other regional lines, although no announcement has yet been made on which routes would benefit.


----------



## Suburbanist

Leeuwarden-Groningen should be electrified as well.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ but at 25 kV AC!


----------



## Silly_Walks

All lines should be prepared for 25kV at least. 

Too bad they recently got rid of this recommendation, because of short-sightedness.


----------



## DingeZ

Why is everybody so obsessed with 25kV? It's not that much better than 3kV. The fact remains that conversion of the whole network from 1.5kV to 25kV would cause major disruptions for several years, something the Dutch network definitely can't afford (aside from 1 summer week). Not to mention out would cost billions, money that could improve the system much more if spent on other projects.


----------



## Suburbanist

DingeZ said:


> Why is everybody so obsessed with 25kV?


It is a first step towards running very fast train with high acceleration.

Dutch terrain = flat

Alignment of most railways = straight or only gentle curves

There is a lot of potential for converting most of the lines into 220 km/h with high acceleration trains, which needs a lot of power for which currents would have to be very high with 3kV


----------



## Silly_Walks

DingeZ said:


> Why is everybody so obsessed with 25kV?


Money.


25kV will allow more trains to run, with higher acceleration and higher speeds, for lower long-term cost than 3000V.


----------



## Wilhem275

@Suburbanist
You can do that with 3 kV. Modern trains on RFI network are showing performances so impressive that any plan about conversion to 25 is being delayed, over and over...
The new AGV has slightly better performances under 25 kV, but still is a beast with 3. And recently introduced Flirts by Stadler are showing an acceleration suitable for a metro line.

We run many lines at 200/220 (and 250 as well) and we're pretty much happy about it.
The only major disadvantage is that current generated by regenerative braking is not so easy to be handled back into the national network, but this is not a great problem on the densely used Dutch network, since there will always be another bunch of trains ready to use that energy.

By the way, I don't see the point of running 220 km/h in a country were all stops are so close.
A couple of weeks ago I was talking with some RFI people about future lines, they say the experience with 220 km/h lines has not proven to be satisfactory: the costs for reaching 220 instead of 200 are huge (you basically have to build everything with HS standards) while the time gain is ludicrous.
On Mestre - Padova, 29 km, going 220 instead of 200 lets you gain a stunning time of 35 seconds...


For the love of precision: we talk about "3 kV" but today the output of the lines is actually 3,6 kV.
Is the Dutch network set exactly at 1,5?



Silly_Walks said:


> Money.
> 
> 
> 25kV will allow more trains to run, with higher acceleration and higher speeds, for lower long-term cost than 3000V.


This is the kind of matter that is true in theory but that practice is pushing away little by little. What you say is true, there is a global advantage, but the advancements of 3 kV technology are moving the BEP to a much farer future; and there will be more.

I would still consider 25 kV if I had to run a network full of much faster trains, but I don't think this is the future of NL.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Wilhem275 said:


> @Suburbanist
> 
> For the love of precision: we talk about "3 kV" but today the output of the lines is actually 3,6 kV.
> Is the Dutch network set exactly at 1,5?


Around 1800, I believe.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Wilhem275 said:


> @Suburbanist
> 
> I would still consider 25 kV if I had to run a network full of much faster trains, but I don't think this is the future of NL.


The future of trains in NL is more and more trains, not so much speed. This is cheaper with 25kV.

Combine that with a need to increase the speed on IC and IC+ type services to 200 km/h, and 25kV just makes sense, even if 3000V seems cheaper in the short term.

There are plenty of longer distance services in NL that would benefit from an increase from 140 km/h to 200 km/h.


----------



## Suburbanist

I still think 250 km/h with high acceleration should be the target.

I think the future of lines like UTrecht-Eindhoven is full grade separation + in-cab signaling. Given these conditions, speeding trains up is easier.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> It is a first step towards running very fast train with high acceleration.
> 
> Dutch terrain = flat
> 
> Alignment of most railways = straight or only gentle curves
> 
> There is a lot of potential for converting most of the lines into 220 km/h with high acceleration trains, which needs a lot of power for which currents would have to be very high with 3kV


A lot more is involved in increasing line speed then you seem to realize.
The biggest issue isn't even the overhead. It's the railway alignment. Increasing the speed to 200kph and beyond involves things like moving the track centers apart. That might mean that most bridges need to be rebuild for example. On many lines you would have to replace even the subgrade. You are effectively building a new line...


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> By the way, I don't see the point of running 220 km/h in a country were all stops are so close.


Nail. Head. Hit.


----------



## flierfy

Wilhem275 said:


> By the way, I don't see the point of running 220 km/h in a country were all stops are so close.


It is not quite so simple. While capacity might be the vastly bigger concern for internal traffic in the Netherlands, there remains the issue with fast links to cities outside the NL. With HSL Zuid a first fast link has already been built. Something similar would now be desirable for traffic from/to western and northern Germany as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> A lot more is involved in increasing line speed then you seem to realize.
> The biggest issue isn't even the overhead. It's the railway alignment. Increasing the speed to 200kph and beyond involves things like moving the track centers apart. That might mean that most bridges need to be rebuild for example. On many lines you would have to replace even the subgrade. You are effectively building a new line...


Over time, it can be done. And should be done. Many sectors are in need of 4-tracks as well, like Houten-Eindhoven and Utrecht-Arnhem-Nijmegen


----------



## Neverworld

On the stretch Houten - Eindhoven the biggest issue is the at-grade intersections at Geldermalsen combined with the island platform (meaning the stopping services to and from Tiel need to cross the outer through tracks before they can halt). Some sort of extra capacity would be nice as well, which would also open up space for an extra station in the northern part of Den Bosch.

On Utrecht - Arnhem I don't see anything happening anytime soon. Driebergen - Zeist will be reconstructed and will feature 4 tracks (all with platform as far as I know), but other than that... There isn't much space and it will be very expensive. An extra issue is that there are some at-grade crossings in Ede that will need to be eliminated before NS is allowed to run extra trains on that sections. So an upgrade on this stretch is really expensive.

Same holds for Arnhem - Nijmegen, but in theory they should be able to run non-stop and stopping services both six times per hour (although stopping services might have to be capped at 4 times per hour if they also want to run freight services) on that section after they finish the works at station Elst. When the stopping service to Tiel will only run between Elst and Tiel that section is actually quite straightforward.


----------



## AlexNL

The intention is keep the train between Arnhem and Tiel running on that route, opposed to shortening it to Elst.


----------



## Wilhem275

flierfy said:


> It is not quite so simple. While capacity might be the vastly bigger concern for internal traffic in the Netherlands, there remains the issue with fast links to cities outside the NL. With HSL Zuid a first fast link has already been built. Something similar would now be desirable for traffic from/to western and northern Germany as well.


Well, I agree the links with Germany are awfully slow. My first time with the ICE3M (via Venlo) was a total delusion. A friend, last week, tried it (via Oberhausen) and said that too.
I actually believe NS should use those trains today on HSL Zuid and give up "fast" trains with Germany until fast lines are ready. Right now they use high speed, expensive trains on 80-140 km/h lines... just to have a quick run between Cologne and Frankfurt (where alternatives are not missing).

Right now I'm writing an essay about the problem of capacity vs. speed (in N-E Italy). My main inspiration is the Ruhr setup: they have fast lines from outer regions (Frankfurt, Aachen, Hannover) up to the first main city, then they don't care about speed anymore because all cities are important.










You can clearly see which corner is missing a fast link 

I think the first step is activating 200 km/h on Amsterdam - Utrecht, then make Arnhem - Oberhausen much faster (ABS or NBS), 53' is really too much for 80 km.
I don't know the situation of Utrecht - Arnhem, if more capacity/speed is obtainable without major works, probably you would need 4 tracks.


About Amsterdam - Berlin, there would be a weird solution...
Today:
Amsterdam - Bad Bentheim 2h35' (my God...)
Bad Bentheim - Berlin Hbf 3h47'

But...
Amsterdam - Oberhausen Hbf 1h54' (and we should make it at least 1h30')
Oberhausen - Essen ~10'
Essen Hbf - Berlin Hbf 3h42'

My suggestion? Concentrate on Amsterdam - Oberhausen @ 200, give up Osnabrück, and you'll shave at least 1 hour off Amsterdam - Berlin...
And keep Osnabrück - Amersfoort as a standard IC link, slow as it is.


----------



## Suburbanist

Maybe they could save time if they ran ICE to Frankfurt via Rotterdam, Antwerpen, Zaventen Airport, Louvain, Liege and Aachen, using the various high-speed links and the also fast Diabolo connector.


----------



## Wilhem275

Man, I think you vastly overrate the effects of those lines on travel time


----------



## Neverworld

AlexNL said:


> The intention is keep the train between Arnhem and Tiel running on that route, opposed to shortening it to Elst.


So what's the use of the third platform?



Suburbanist said:


> Maybe they could save time if they ran ICE to Frankfurt via Rotterdam, Antwerpen, Zaventen Airport, Louvain, Liege and Aachen, using the various high-speed links and the also fast Diabolo connector.


Maybe to get from Rotterdam to Frankfurt yes (although it won't be much). However, the relation between central Netherlands (basically triangle Amsterdam - Rotterdam - Arnhem) and the Ruhr area will not be helped by that and the ICE primarily serves those urban centers. Amsterdam - Frankfurt or Amsterdam - Stuttgart is faster by plane anyway, if speed is your main concern.



Wilhem275 said:


> I think the first step is activating 200 km/h on Amsterdam - Utrecht, then make Arnhem - Oberhausen much faster (ABS or NBS), 53' is really too much for 80 km.
> I don't know the situation of Utrecht - Arnhem, if more capacity/speed is obtainable without major works, probably you would need 4 tracks.


I agree it's too slow. The ICE is basically limited by the 140km/h speed limit on the section between Utrecht and border (and beyond, the train doesn't speed up significantly in Germany either). It's not easy to fix that, there are a lot of at-grade intersections and slow stopping services on that stretch. A dedicated new HS track is completely out of the question for the forseeable future.

Don't forget NS doesn't own the ICE's, they're property of DB (apart from 2 or 3 as far as I remember, not enough for a full service somewhere else).


----------



## MarcVD

Neverworld said:


> Don't forget NS doesn't own the ICE's, they're property of DB (apart from 2 or 3 as far as I remember, not enough for a full service somewhere else).


Four ICE trains are on the NS roster.


----------



## Suburbanist

Arnhem - Nijmegen is congested. The Intercity trains Roosendal-Zwolle, for instance, have to make extra local stops between Anrhem and Nijmegen as there is no path for them to travel directly, which adds some 5 minutes in total travel time.


----------



## AlexNL

Neverworld said:


> So what's the use of the third platform?


Shorter planning of trains from Arnhem towards Nijmegen. As the train to Tiel takes points to leave the main line, an IC to Nijmegen can be timetabled to follow that Tiel train a bit more narrower.


The original plan was to complete isolate the train to Tiel (with just one very low-speed turnout from the main line), which is why the current layout was designed, approved and is currently being built. The extra point (to allow trains from Arnhem to diverge) will probably be built at a later stage...

This is something typically Dutch, and is one of the reasons why projects are usually delivered late and costs overrun...:bash:


----------



## M-NL

Wilhem275 said:


> My suggestion? Concentrate on Amsterdam - Oberhausen @ 200, give up Osnabrück, and you'll shave at least 1 hour off Amsterdam - Berlin...
> And keep Osnabrück - Amersfoort as a standard IC link, slow as it is.


The current Amsterdam -Berlin train loses a lot of time, because it's a regular Intercity in the Netherlands. It stops at Hilversum, Amersfoort, Apeldoorn, Deventer, Almelo and Hengelo before arriving at Bad Bentheim for a time consuming loco change.

They should electrify and (if needed) double track the Zwolle - Almelo route and then reroute the Amsterdam - Berlin train via Zwolle and use a multi-system loco's until the ICx's arrive. The elimination of several stops and the posibility to do 200 km/h on the Hanzelijn and 140 km/h from Zwolle to Wierden, instead of 130 km/h on the current route, will reduce travel time considerably.


----------



## AlexNL

If you're waiting for the ICx trains to run in the Netherlands you're in for a long wait as DB canceled the option for our country.


----------



## M-NL

My understanding is slightly different: Because of increased domestic demand the original order was changed: The multi-system option on the short sets was dropped and the length of the long sets was increased by 2 carriages. A next order may still include international versions, but delivery will not be expected before 2025. The current carriages on the other hand don't have eternal life either. Remember that most of them are also already over 30 years old.

Despite everything: Everytime I rode this service it was pretty crowded with lots of international passengers. Thus there is to much demand to just drop it.


----------



## LtBk

I find it stupid that there is no HSR between NL and DE.


----------



## K_

Wilhem275 said:


> I actually believe NS should use those trains today on HSL Zuid and give up "fast" trains with Germany until fast lines are ready. Right now they use high speed, expensive trains on 80-140 km/h lines... just to have a quick run between Cologne and Frankfurt (where alternatives are not missing).


Arnhem - Oberhausen is 160 kph, and Duisburg - Köln 200 kph. 
Anyway, for Amsterdam - Köln - Frankfurt trains this is by far the fastest route. 

It would have been different if the original TGV plan the the transport minister De Croo proposed would have been built...


----------



## XAN_

Hm, it seems the entire "legalise" thing aren't so harmless after all. :lol:


----------



## Momo1435

Here's 2 picks I took yesterday on the Maasvlakte in the Port of Rotterdam. 


IMG_7326 von Momo1435 auf Flickr


IMG_7334 von Momo1435 auf Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

*Over €1bn earmarked for railway improvements*



> The government and regional councils are to invest €1.1bn on improving the railway networks, junior infrastructure minister Wilma Mansveld said on Tuesday.
> 
> Some €430m will be spent on expanding ‘capacity and quality’ at Amsterdam’s central station. Platforms will be widened and the ‘spaghetti’ of train tracks will be unravelled, the minister said.
> 
> The plans also involve building railway bridges to increase capacity to Utrecht, Eindhoven and between Schiphol and Lelystad, where the local airport is due to undergo significant expansion.


- See more at: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...armarked_for_railway.php#sthash.t9rCC3Du.dpuf


----------



## Suburbanist

*"Airport travel guarantee" product to be launched by NS*

NS will start a pilot program this summer whereas passengers bound to Schiphol can pay a small fee (€5) in an app as get comprehensive travel assistance and insurance on their trips to Schiphol Airport for outbound flights.

This guarantee will ensure that, in case of delays or disruptions of train service, NS takes alternative action if needed (like putting the passenger on a taxi) to allow a passenger to reach the check-in counters in Schiphol on time. If even such measures are not enough, and the passenger misses the plane, (s)he will get compensation for the fees incurred to reschedule the flight + accommodation or money lost on unused flight segment.

Source (in Dutch)


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> NS will start a pilot program this summer whereas passengers bound to Schiphol can pay a small fee (€5) in an app as get comprehensive travel assistance and insurance on their trips to Schiphol Airport for outbound flights.
> 
> This guarantee will ensure that, in case of delays or disruptions of train service, NS takes alternative action if needed (like putting the passenger on a taxi) to allow a passenger to reach the check-in counters in Schiphol on time. If even such measures are not enough, and the passenger misses the plane, (s)he will get compensation for the fees incurred to reschedule the flight + accommodation or money lost on unused flight segment.


Most travel insurances will already cover the costs incurred when you miss a flight due to a late train. The only new thing is that NS will indeed be motivated to prevent the damage from occurring in the first place...


----------



## M-NL

I'm curious for the exact conditions of this guarantee. Like why should I take an earlier train when the guarantee will make sure I'm in time even if I cut it very close.

Also €5 is pretty expensive. Even for the longest journeys, such as from Maastricht or Groningen, that 20% of the fare. For shorter journeys the guarantee could be over 50% of your fare.


----------



## Theijs

M-NL said:


> Like why should I take an earlier train when the guarantee will make sure I'm in time even if I cut it very close.


One should have a smartphone with a special NS App, and stick to their travel schedule. No doubt NS will oblige you to take an earlier train, e.g. you arrive 2 hours before departure, when the check-in desk just opened.


----------



## Suburbanist

Theijs said:


> One should have a smartphone with a special NS App, and stick to their travel schedule. No doubt NS will oblige you to take an earlier train, e.g. you arrive 2 hours before departure, when the check-in desk just opened.


I think it will be still worth for situations like a transcontinental flight, a package tour for the whole family (when missing the plane = no holiday).


----------



## Surel

Suburbanist said:


> NS will start a pilot program this summer whereas passengers bound to Schiphol can pay a small fee (€5) in an app as get comprehensive travel assistance and insurance on their trips to Schiphol Airport for outbound flights.
> 
> This guarantee will ensure that, in case of delays or disruptions of train service, NS takes alternative action if needed (like putting the passenger on a taxi) to allow a passenger to reach the check-in counters in Schiphol on time. If even such measures are not enough, and the passenger misses the plane, (s)he will get compensation for the fees incurred to reschedule the flight + accommodation or money lost on unused flight segment.
> 
> Source (in Dutch)


NS took me from Utrecht to Eindhoven Airport to catch a plane with a taxi on their costs, it is few years ago and there was no guarantee back then...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...els-open-access-plan-shelved.html?channel=542
> 
> *The Hague – Brussels open-access plan shelved*
> Thursday, June 26, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE municipal government of The Hague and Arriva have abandoned plans to launch an open-access cross-border service linking the Dutch city with Brussels, which was due to begin operating in December 2015.
> 
> The Hague's councillor for transport Mr Peter Smit said that the municipality had found it impossible to set up the service, dubbed Lage Landen Lijn (Low Countries Line), which would have offered an alternative to Thalys and NS International services.
> 
> The main reason for the cancellation is reportedly difficulties finding viable train paths for the service, particularly on the congested section between Brussels North and Brussels South. Other reports in the Dutch press also suggest the service does not have the support of the Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure.
> 
> Proposals for the Lage Landen Lijn emerged as a result of dissatisfaction with the now-withdrawn Fyra service, which left The Hague without any international trains to Belgium. The tendering process was managed by The Hague Trains Holding, a limited company registered in the Netherlands which is wholly owned by the municipality of The Hague, with Arriva shouldering all of the financial risk.
> 
> Following the collapse of Fyra, a cross-border service was reintroduced but this is considerably slower than the Benelux service superseded by Fyra in December 2012


----------



## Wilhem275

If the problem is between Brussels North and Brussels South... they can just arrive to North, then there is plenty of connections to proceed. After all, it's a regional link.

But clearly the main problem is not that.


----------



## K_

Wilhem275 said:


> If the problem is between Brussels North and Brussels South... they can just arrive to North, then there is plenty of connections to proceed. After all, it's a regional link.


The problem with Brussel North is that a train arriving from the North basically has to leave towards the South (and vice versa). You can't that easily reverse trains there without eating up a lot of capacity. 

If I was an open access operator intending to run to Belgium I'd either go around Brussel to Brussel South, or go to the airport. From next year onward the Airport will get good IC connections with most of the country, so it would be a good "hub" for international trains as well.


----------



## AlexNL

The "Sprinter Next Generation", the next generation of commuter trains for the Dutch railway network, will be built by either Alstom or CAF. The final decision will be made after the summer.

Source: an NS news article about sustainability.


----------



## MrAronymous

What will they replace? Do they mean the generation after the SLTs? They sure like planning ahead.


----------



## Wilhem275

K_ said:


> If I was an open access operator intending to run to Belgium I'd either go around Brussel to Brussel South, or go to the airport. From next year onward the Airport will get good IC connections with most of the country, so it would be a good "hub" for international trains as well.


Well, I agree. I just didn't know Brussel North has a lack of sidings.
But still, I believe the main limit to this service is not south of the border...


----------



## Momo1435

MrAronymous said:


> What will they replace? Do they mean the generation after the SLTs? They sure like planning ahead.


This is indeed a next generation of trains for the Sprinter services. These are already needed because the last batch of options for the SLT was never picked up. 

They will replace the old SGM Sprinter sets and the soon to be reactivated DD-AR sets (made from the cars have not been renovated into the DDZ/NID IC sets).

They will come into service from 2018.

Here's the original press release from the NS (in Dutch):
http://www.ns.nl/over-ns/nieuwscentrum/nieuwsberichten#vernieuwingen-en-verduurzaming-materieel-ns


----------



## MrAronymous

Momo1435 said:


> These are already needed because the last batch of options for the SLT was never picked up. [/url]


Because of the toilets/snow incidents? Seems weird to just purchase different train stock for no reason. Is NS not yet satisfied with the current SLT?


----------



## da_scotty

They are, but because of the toilets they are not allowed to buy the new sets...


----------



## XAN_

What's the big deal with toilets, anyway?


----------



## MrAronymous

da_scotty said:


> They are, but because of the toilets they are not allowed to buy the new sets...


They can't buy the new sets with toilets? Weird.

@Xan_, They left out the toilets on these trains, which frequently stop, with the reasoning that you could use the toilets on the stations (eventhough not even all (especially small) stations have a toilet). Which makes sort of sense because a lot of times these Sprinter trains act as a RER/Commuter train system, and you don't often find toilets there either. The public and media then made a big deal about it, so then parliament (a.k.a. government, who has a big stake in NS) ordered for them to be built in.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Except that Sprinters are for many people the only/fastest/best option to travel, even for longer distances (even up to 60 minutes).


----------



## Suburbanist

Wouldn't be possible to change the option contract for more SLT trains, fitting toilets?

I think SLT are good trains for most of their use. Very wide doors facilitating movement, a better seat plan than the older Sprinters.


----------



## Momo1435

I don't know if the addition of toilets would have been possible within the contracts, especially from the perspective from the original tender for the SLT trains. 

Anyway, the NS has chosen to start a new tender. That's the only reality right now. And it will mean that the NS will keep having 2 different kind of Sprinter EMUs, no change there.


----------



## Suburbanist

Have they totally retired the outdated old trains from the late 1970s that were running some stoptrein services until very recently?


----------



## da_scotty

These series still have Mat'64 in them.


_4400/9600_ Sprinter	Deurne- Eindhoven 's-Hertogenbosch – Nijmegen 
(usually SLT, SGMm and NID though)

_6800_ Sprinter	Maastricht Randwyck – Maastricht – Sittard – Roermond

_6900_ Sprinter	Heerlen – Sittard	

_7000_ Sprinter	Apeldoorn – Deventer – Almelo – Hengelo – Enschede	

_7500_ Sprinter	Ede-Wageningen – Arnhem	

_21400_ Nighttrain (Eindhoven) -Utrecht-Amsterdam-Rotterdam (Usually VIRM, ICMm or NID though)


----------



## Road_UK

edit


----------



## Wilhem275

I hope Mat '64 will not be retired before december


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> I hope Mat '64 will not be retired before december


These old trains are really two notches below the usual standards of Dutch trains in terms of comfort. They are poorly insulated, very noisy, and has its passenger room awkwardly configured.

I guess they were modern when first introduced.


----------



## Road_UK

A British Rail train called "Amsterdam" painted in Dutch livery to promote the Stena Line train-ferry link to the Netherlands in 1993.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> These old trains are really two notches below the usual standards of Dutch trains in terms of comfort. They are poorly insulated, very noisy, and has its passenger room awkwardly configured.
> 
> I guess they were modern when first introduced.


I can tell you never grew up in the Netherlands. I love those trains. It brings back many happy memories!


----------



## AlexNL

XAN_ said:


> What's the big deal with toilets, anyway?


Passengers want them.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> I can tell you never grew up in the Netherlands. I love those trains. It brings back many happy memories!


They lack many modern features:

- proper lighting (they are poorly lit)
- retention toitlets that don't discard contents on rail tracks
- wi-fi
- passenger information monitors

I also don't think the cost of retrofitting them would justify doing so. They probably have mechanical components at or near the end of their useful life.


----------



## Momo1435

Mat '64 is pure nostalgia, already saved from retirement many times.

First in the 1990s when the new SM '90 EMUs were presented as it's successor, but only 9 were built which already have been retired 7 years ago. Then came the SLT in the 2000s which was to replace all of the Mat '64 sets, but that turned out different. I've seen several plans to retire the sets for good over last couple of years, but the current sprinter rolling stock shortage makes it keep on going. Although we do see sets being retired and scrapped on a regular basis it's probably going to soldier on for some time.


The fact that they were very modern at the time when they entered service in the 1960s and 70s makes them still usable. For their age they are not even that outdated and they are far more comfortable then many of the newer generations of regional trains in Europe. 

I don't get to ride them too often anymore as I did when they were the only trains used on the Utrecht - Leiden route. But when I do I always get to sit in the compartment above the powered bogie. It's the sounds and the vibrations which are absolutely awesome. They also have a typical smell which just brings back nostalgia.

They are at the absolute end of their lifespan, I understand, but it's still sad that they will still be gone soon.


----------



## Slagathor

Road_UK said:


> I can tell you never grew up in the Netherlands. I love those trains. It brings back many happy memories!





Suburbanist said:


> They lack many modern features:
> 
> - proper lighting (they are poorly lit)
> - retention toitlets that don't discard contents on rail tracks
> - wi-fi
> - passenger information monitors
> 
> I also don't think the cost of retrofitting them would justify doing so. They probably have mechanical components at or near the end of their useful life.


You're not getting the point.  Of course they're not for this age anymore. But Dutch people typically love them just for the sake of childhood memories. 

If you asked any Dutch kid in the 1970s, 1980s or the 1990s to draw a picture of a train, they would have drawn a Mat '64. It wasn't just _a_ train, it was _the_ train.

Does that warrant the enormous price tag it would take to retrofit these trains? No. Of course not.

But we still love them.


----------



## Wilhem275

Jesus Christ, as a kid they were the Dutch train to me too, and I'm not even Dutch :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

Road_UK said:


> A British Rail train called "Amsterdam" painted in Dutch livery to promote the Stena Line train-ferry link to the Netherlands in 1993.


Some lad in Britain found it very unfair that British Rail has made an effort to paint one of their trains in Dutch livery, but NS did nothing. So he photoshopped a couple of trains himself. Very impressive:


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> The problem with Brussel North is that a train arriving from the North basically has to leave towards the South (and vice versa). You can't that easily reverse trains there without eating up a lot of capacity.


The track layout of Brussels North has been radically simplified several years
ago, on the basis that no train used that station for reversal or composition
changes anymore. A fire destroyed the original signalling installations and to
speed-up the rebuilding, all track equipment that was not intensively used
has been removed. You won't find any siding or engine pocket anymore there,
just switches that allow to choose between different platform tracks...

On the other hand, this is not that critical. Trains from Den Haag would be 
made of either ICRm rakes or new EMUs. I read somewhere that ICR coaches 
with driving cabins were taken out of sidings to be equipped with driving 
posts compatible with TRAXX locs. So in both cases, trains would be reversible
with no specific track layout needed, just a few minutes layover to
allow the driver to change direction.

So this explanation for not implementing the proposed route just looks like
an excuse to me. The real reason is probably that they never intended to
implement, and that this proposal was only a way to put pressure on NS so
that they do something. Now that they have obtained what they want, they
just widthdraw. Not really a surprise...

By the way, station Brussels South will follow the same route : a severe
simplification of the track layout is under way. Reversals and composition
changes are becoming quite rare there too. The station is now under control
of a computerized signalization system, from which can be obtained detailed
usage statistics of each and every single switch. Anyone that is not, or only
sparsely, used, will be removed.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...inter-city-trains-until-2021.html?channel=542
> 
> *NS: no new inter-city trains until 2021*
> Monday, June 30, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE NEW CEO of Netherlands Railways (NS) Mr Timo Huges, has informed the Dutch secretary of state for infrastructure Mrs Wilma Mansveld that NS will not acquire any new inter-city rolling stock before 2021.
> 
> The Dutch government has urged NS, which holds the concession to operate most regional services and all inter-city trains in the Netherlands, to procure new inter-city rolling stock within four years.
> 
> However, NS says it wants to apply the lessons it has learnt as a result of the disastrous procurement of V250 high-speed trains from AnsaldoBreda and wishes to choose from various suppliers, which takes time.
> 
> NS has also stressed that new inter-city rolling stock will have a maximum speed of 200km/h, and it has no intention of ordering faster trains, arguing that higher speeds are not required because of the relatively short distances between stations.


----------



## radamfi

Why have NS introduced a minimum top-up of €4? Also, the ticket office didn't like me topping up with loose change (0.01 and 0.05 euro coins have little use these days) and only allowed me to top up with whole euros. So a top-up of €4 is OK, but €4.11 isn't.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Topping up with the OV-chipkaart is very limited to begin with. 


They should look at Hong Kong and see how it is done there. You can step into any store that allows Octopus payments, give them money and they will put that on your card.
Really customer-friendly and it just MAKES SENSE.

Get off your shit, TLS, NS, GVB, etc.


----------



## radamfi

There must be some logic to the way it is done in NL? Maybe they are trying to promote automatic top-up? It is good that you can top-up in supermarkets, but why do you have to use the machine and not the manned till or the self-service tills like you get in some AH stores? In London I get rid of loose change by topping up my Oyster card and the shops will top-up by any amount, even 1p. The London Underground machines will also accept any amount multiple of 5p in cash.

Are the Dutch thinking of allowing payment by contactless bank card? London buses have accepted them for over a year and it will soon be rolled out to the Underground and National Rail, including daily and weekly capping. Ultimately they may get rid of the Oyster card in favour of contactless bank card.


----------



## AlexNL

NS will start trialling contact less payment with a bank card this summer.


----------



## MrAronymous

radamfi said:


> There must be some logic to the way it is done in NL?


No, it's just putting themselves over customers. This way they don't get the useless coins.


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

But shops generally like coins, as they often have a shortage of change, so an OV-Chipkaart loader which gives them easy access to coins and small bills would actually work to their advantage.


----------



## Theijs

radamfi said:


> Why have NS introduced a minimum top-up of €4?


it's all about costs... At Arriva machines you can chose the amount yourself, but you can only pay by bank card.

Let's hope for costumer friendly innovation: http://mobile.railwaygazette.com/index.php/news/news/profile/21619


----------



## Surel

radamfi said:


> Are the Dutch thinking of allowing payment by contactless bank card? London buses have accepted them for over a year and it will soon be rolled out to the Underground and National Rail, including daily and weekly capping. Ultimately they may get rid of the Oyster card in favour of contactless bank card.


Indeed. Credit based payment is disadvantageous to the customers and advantageous to the provider. It is then rather unnecessary with new bank cards or even mobile apps.

Dutch smartphone penetration is around 70 %. I dunno how much of those have a NFC, in the UK it is around 10 %, in the US it is 70 %. Anyways in the next few years the penetration with NFC phones will soar. NFC bank stickers are also very easy to manufacture.

But I understand that such a system as OV card has certain inertia.


----------



## Silly_Walks

I don't want my public transport payments linked to my bank account or phone bill.

I guess I'm a segregationist... :/


----------



## radamfi

The advantage of using contactless bank cards is that processing can be done away from the vehicle, such as using overnight batch processing, unlike smartcards which require processing on-the-fly. The NS Business Card already enables you to pay later.


----------



## radamfi

So, any news about how the replacement of paper tickets with the eenmalige OV-Chipkaart is going?


----------



## MrAronymous

A 'meldpunt' has been made for customers to file a complaint. Here's an article in Dutch.
Lots of complaints can be called invalid, as you can still buy a one or two way disposable OV-chipkaart ticket. Somehow people seem to not know about its existence.


----------



## AlexNL

radamfi said:


> So, any news about how the replacement of paper tickets with the eenmalige OV-Chipkaart is going?


Overall it's going pretty well: there is lots of staff on stations to help out when people have questions, and at busy stations extra (temporary) validators have been placed to cope with the increased demand and dwell times.

Not everything is going well: the ticket vending machine in Wijchen ran out of tickets. As the 'Nijmeegse Vierdaagse' is held close to that area, a large influx of visitors is to be expected to and from that station. Running out of tickets on such a time is inconvenient, to say the least.


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> A 'meldpunt' has been made for customers to file a complaint. Here's an article in Dutch. Lots of complaints can be called invalid, as you can still buy a one or two way disposable OV-chipkaart ticket. Somehow people seem to not know about its existence.


What happens when someone with a paper ticket tries to get in to the station?


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> What happens when someone with a paper ticket tries to get in to the station?


Some gates have been fit with QR/barcode readers.

For the time being, there are also a station agent near the gates on station where international trains call and gates are activated.

AFAIK, the compulsory presence of a QR code for European tickets issued on paper abroad will kick in mid-2015


----------



## Road_UK

If I travel by train from Mayrhofen to Sneek, I travel with a paper ticket all the way, issued by the ÖBB. Changing in Jenbach, Munich and Düsseldorf is not a problem. How do I go about in the Netherlands with my valid ÖBB ticket? I also have to change at Arnhem, Zwolle and Leeuwarden...


----------



## AlexNL

Road_UK said:


> If I travel by train from Mayrhofen to Sneek, I travel with a paper ticket all the way, issued by the ÖBB. Changing in Jenbach, Munich and Düsseldorf is not a problem. How do I go about in the Netherlands with my valid ÖBB ticket? I also have to change at Arnhem, Zwolle and Leeuwarden...


As long as you don't leave the station you won't encounter gates, and only a part of the stations will be equipped with gates. Sneek is not on the list.


----------



## Road_UK

Ok, but what if I want to interrupt my journey in let's say Zwolle for an hour and I wish to leave the station? How do I get back in?


----------



## M-NL

If you pass an exit gate with a OV-chipkaart you check out. If you get back into the station you pass an entry gate and check in again. Yes, this also means you have to pay the base fare again. 

The NS-forum has a nice example illustrating this: Single trip Maastricht-Groningen: € 25,40, Maastricht-Utrecht: € 22,90, Utrecht-Groningen: € 23,90. So if you interupt your trip, in this case your fare would almost double! NS recommends using an E-ticket in this case, which does allow you to interupt your journey.

Last weekend I experienced the NS service attitude again: Due to planned maintenance there were limited service around Schiphol and Utrecht. Okay, that can happen. However there also was a points malfunction preventing travel from Schiphol in the Amerfoort direction. All the information signs only displayed which trains didn't run. Zero information on the alternatives. In the entire station of Schiphol there wasn't a single person that could tell me the best way to travel to the East. In the end I relied on my own knowledge and selected a route over the Hanzelijn (damn that tunnel makes your ears pop!) via Zwolle and then further east. Once on route I used the NS travel planner, with suggested trains that according to the platform signs were cancelled. In the end it only took 45 minutes extra, which could have been only 15 minutes if I hadn't passed up on an earlier train, because at that time I was still under the impression the direct train was running (which wasn't).
Because of my route knowledge I could choose an optimal alternative. Less seasoned travellers and tourists were left to there own devices. No information and no staff with enough knowledge. That really bad NS (and ProRail)!


----------



## Road_UK

That's all well and good, but in Austria they still issue paper tickets only, which is what I'm using to travel to and in the Netherlands. If ÖBB and DB allows me to interrupt my journey in their countries, but I'm limited to railway stations in the Netherlands only then obviously there is some poor thinking going on, and not very good for international rail travel. You can't expect people to pay to walk in and out of a railway station when they have already payed for their fare in the country of departure.


----------



## M-NL

All foreignly issued paper tickets have 2D-barcodes, similar to the E-ticket I mentionned. Thus you can interupt your journey at any intermediate station you like, as long as you complete the journey at the validated date.

Modifying the gates to accept both barcoded tickets and chip cards would have been much easier then the route they actually chose. But they probably didn't because for not-invented-here reasons.


----------



## MrAronymous

M-NL said:


> Modifying the gates to accept both barcoded tickets and chip cards would have been much easier then the route they actually chose. But they probably didn't because for not-invented-here reasons.


Which other route? They're going to put at least one code scanner gate at gated stations in the future. They're already testing equipment in Maarssen.


----------



## K_

Wilhem275 said:


> Is this whole mess really costing less than some staff checking tickets?


Oh, they won't even be able to reduce on train inspections...


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> Error. Does not compute. The average passenger knows very well which company it's using. It's a small minority that either is unfamiliar with the area or is just clueless. The situation with operators other than NS (Dutch Railways) is pretty much only present on local lines (Unlike in the UK I believe), which were not profitable or important enough for NS to operate there. The important big city routes are usually served by NS. So it's not as much of a big deal you're making it out to be. It's pretty much the same as a bus transfer.


No it isn't the same. 
With buses you check in or out on the vehicle. And you are always supposed to do this, regardless of whether you're transferring to a bus from the same, or from a different company. 
With trains it is not obvious. I'm traveling Rotterdam - Harlingen in a few weeks time, and just learned that not only will I have to buy a disposable chipcard, I also will have to pay attention at every transfer wether I'm changing companies or not... I don't think this exists anywhere in Europe.


----------



## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> I presume you need intermediate validators so they can accurately split the revenue between the companies. In most cases, though, there won't be any ambiguity. If you touch in at Assen and touch out at Roodeschool, you must have used Arriva between Groningen and Roodeschool.
> 
> If you travel from Rotterdam Blaak to Schiedam Centraal, you could have used NS or RET or a mixture of the two. The fare is different depending on whether you use NS or RET so I guess it is needed there. But in London there are similar routes where you could have used the Underground or National Rail, yet you don't have separate readers. Therefore in London, on these routes, they don't know which company you used, and therefore the fare is the same, and they have to split the revenue using surveys.
> 
> In London they do have interchange validators as well, coloured pink instead of the usual yellow. Touching on the pink readers is not compulsory, but if you don't touch the pink reader, the system assumes a default route which might be more expensive than the route you actually took.


A secondary issue is that there are some subscriptions and several passes valid on GVB network, but not on NS network, and GVB and NS share several stations and some platforms. For instance, you might have a 72h pass for GVB. You can travel by subway between Amsterdam Zuid and Bijlmer Arena if you want, but you can't take a NS train. Likewise, if you have a "free weekend travel" pass from NS, you can travel between Rotterdam Schiedam and Rotterdam Blaak using NS trains, but not RET subway.


----------



## AlexNL

radamfi said:


> If you touch in at Assen and touch out at Roodeschool, you must have used Arriva between Groningen and Roodeschool.



The system architecture does require you to touch out at an NS validator and touch in at an Arriva validator when you change trains in Groningen. This is a result of the OV-chipkaart's system architecture: as each operator owns and operates its own equipment, starting a journey (touching in) with one operator and ending it with another (touch out) is not possible.

If someone starts the journey with NS but finished it with Arriva, they can't simply tell TLS (the clearance house behind the OV-Chipkaart) how much money they want as the operators will have to communicate with each other to figure out which uncompleted journeys should be matched together to form a completed journey (and thus to calculate the route taken).

Furthermore, as it's possible to take multiple routes and use different operators to get from A to B* this makes the calculations very hard. So while I agree that it would be easier if you would have to touch in and out only once, it's not as easily realized with the complex fare structure that the Netherlands has nowadays...

* To get from Hengelo to Apeldoorn you can take the direct NS intercity train, but it's also possible to travel to Zutphen with Syntus and to travel to Apeldoorn with Arriva


----------



## radamfi

AlexNL said:


> To get from Hengelo to Apeldoorn you can take the direct NS intercity train, but it's also possible to travel to Zutphen with Syntus and to travel to Apeldoorn with Arriva


I tried to get the fare for this route on the NS site but it doesn't know fares where you use a 'via station'. 9292.nl does give a fare of €12.07, compared with the direct NS fare of €11.80.


----------



## K_

radamfi said:


> I presume you need intermediate validators so they can accurately split the revenue between the companies. In most cases, though, there won't be any ambiguity. If you touch in at Assen and touch out at Roodeschool, you must have used Arriva between Groningen and Roodeschool.


There are quite a few countries in Europe where they manage to split revenue between operators without imposing extra complexity on the passengers...
For many passengers, especially people who don't take the train a lot it is not immediately obvious when you change operators. 
With buses it's not a problem, because there the principle is that you always check out when you leave a vehicle, regardless of whether you change operators. 
With trains it can be a problem, because the operator isn't necessarily obvious.
If I travel from Heerlen to Eijsden I change from "Veolia" to "NMBS" according to the trip planner on www.ns.nl. Is there an NMBS CICO pole in Maastricht? 
And the information in the trip planner is incorrect, as the operator of that line is NS, not NMBS, even though the train sets and personel are provided by NMBS. So strictly It's check out Veolia, check in NS one would need to do here...
I'm due to travel to the Netherlands in August. I'll have ample opportunity to try out different scenarios, as I'll arrive on an international ticket bought at the station in Belgium, will need to buy a ticket Rotterdam - Harlingen and Harlingen - Amsterdam, and then will leave Amsterdam with an e-ticket sold to me by DB (with two persons on one piece of paper...)
I first intended to just check in at Rotterdam and out in Harlingen on my trip there (as I though that this is what you did on trains). I think I will now just treat the disposable chipcard as if it was a paper ticket.



> If you travel from Rotterdam Blaak to Schiedam Centraal, you could have used NS or RET or a mixture of the two. The fare is different depending on whether you use NS or RET so I guess it is needed there.


No what is needed here is that fares are integrated. That Blaak - Schiedam costs different whether one takes the metro or the train is silly really.



> But in London there are similar routes where you could have used the Underground or National Rail, yet you don't have separate readers. Therefore in London, on these routes, they don't know which company you used, and therefore the fare is the same, and they have to split the revenue using surveys.


In London the Oyster card was introduced as a means to fully integrate the whole system tariff-whise. In the Netherlands they seem to do the opposite.


----------



## K_

How is it done on randstadrail? AFAIK the RET requires you to check in at the station entrance, but HTM wants you the check in on the vehicle. How does it work on the shared sections?



AlexNL said:


> * To get from Hengelo to Apeldoorn you can take the direct NS intercity train, but it's also possible to travel to Zutphen with Syntus and to travel to Apeldoorn with Arriva


They could just solve that by limiting a ticket to a route. When you buy Hengelo to Apeldoorn from a ticket vending machine it could give you two options, and you choose which route you take. Based on that the revenue for the ticket is split.


----------



## M-NL

Fit all trains with a passenger boarding/alighting system and simply count how much distance passenger have travelled on your network. Split the revenues accordingly.
Calculate the fare over the most likely route taken and automatically charge multiple base fees if the itenerary included several operators.
In fact a lot of train are already fitted with such a counting system.


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> Fit all trains with a passenger boarding/alighting system and simply count how much distance passenger have travelled on your network. Split the revenues accordingly. Calculate the fare over the most likely route taken and automatically charge multiple base fees if the itenerary included several operators. In fact a lot of train are already fitted with such a counting system.


You don't need to fit all vehicles. Getting a representative sample is sufficient. 

The SBB is working on a "Be in,be out" system. Basically the system would recognize your present on board a vehicle, and would even know if you'd travelled first or second class. As a passenger you wouldn't have to do anything beyond having your card on you. Now that is user friendly...


----------



## AlexNL

K_ said:


> How is it done on randstadrail? AFAIK the RET requires you to check in at the station entrance, but HTM wants you the check in on the vehicle. How does it work on the shared sections?


On the shared part of the The Hague - Rotterdam route, RET has a separate section on each platform. RET's validators are placed at the platform entrances.

These separate sections are a result of the different rolling stock: HTM uses low floor tram vehicles (matching the platforms in the city), RET uses high floor subway vehicles.


----------



## Suburbanist

Speaking of Randstad Rail... when will the Hoek van Holland-Schiedam line be transferred to RET?

What about the conversion of the Kempen-Zwolle railway on a tram route?


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> On the shared part of the The Hague - Rotterdam route, RET has a separate section on each platform. RET's validators are placed at the platform entrances. These separate sections are a result of the different rolling stock: HTM uses low floor tram vehicles (matching the platforms in the city), RET uses high floor subway vehicles.


So what do you do if you've validated on the RET section and the first vehicle to come along is a HTML tram?


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> Speaking of Randstad Rail... when will the Hoek van Holland-Schiedam line be transferred to RET?



Have they drawn up a plan to do this?


----------



## MrAronymous

Suburbanist said:


> Speaking of Randstad Rail... when will the Hoek van Holland-Schiedam line be transferred to RET?


I'm guessing 2017.


----------



## radamfi

K_ said:


> They could just solve that by limiting a ticket to a route. When you buy Hengelo to Apeldoorn from a ticket vending machine it could give you two options, and you choose which route you take. Based on that the revenue for the ticket is split.


If you buy the eenmalige chipkaart, you can indeed choose a cheaper route from the machine. There is a video showing the machine giving you a set of options for travelling on different routes and operators between Amersfoort and Hengelo:

http://www.ns.nl/kaartautomaatdemo/...et_andere_vervoerders_gereisd_kan_worden.html


----------



## radamfi

When the Hoek van Holland line is transferred to RET, would that be the end of through rail/sea tickets between NL and London?

The Hoek van Holland to Harwich ferry sells Dutch train tickets on the boat, even including the €6 bike ticket. Are they still allowed to sell paper tickets or are they able to sell the eenmalige chipkaart? It was the cheapest ticket office to buy Dutch train tickets as they didn't charge a 0.50 euro surcharge, and allowed you to pay in Visa/Mastercard at no extra cost!


----------



## AlexNL

K_ said:


> So what do you do if you've validated on the RET section and the first vehicle to come along is a HTML tram?


Then you walk towards the HTM section of the platform, and as you do so you walk past the RET validators. Don't forget to touch out there, otherwise you'll lose € 4,-. Once you're in the HTM vehicle, touch in using their validators.

You can somewhat see the situation in the following picture:









This is an HTM vehicle standing at the HTM section of the platform. HTM vehicles always stop on this side, the platform is at the same height as the vehicle. There are no validators on this platform.

RET vehicles stop to the right of the picture, where the platform is higher. RET's validators are placed solely on the platform, there are no validators inside the vehicles.

This is a fine example of the differences between HTM and RET: HTM treats RandstadRail as a tram line which has low platforms and extends into the city, while RET thinks of it as a subway line. After Rotterdam Centraal, the subway trains continue to Slinge. 

All underground stations are sealed off with gates, making validators inside the vehicle redundant. Yet with the tram, the platforms are not sealed so validators inside the vehicle are a necessity. For trams, low floors are desired so PRM's can board easily. Yet, in the subway, higher platforms are used so the vehicles need to align with that.


----------



## M-NL

Travelled from Utrecht to Arnhem yesterday. The VIRMs HVAC system had a major problem, as it was a sauna in the entire set. If it would have been slightly more crowded I bet people would have fainted. This set should have never been in service.


----------



## radamfi

I posted recently complaining that my Maestro card from the UK Post Office did not work in the NS machines. I got a Quidity prepaid card, which has expensive fees, but I was curious to see if that would work.

http://www.quiditycard.com/

And it did work! And it also works in Albert Heijn, Zeeman and the yellow OV-Chipkaart machines in Albert Heijn.

I also noticed Rodenrijs and Meijersplein metro stations accept credit cards at no extra cost. If that's the same at all RET machines it would appear that Rotterdam is the place for foreigners to top-up their OV-Chipkaarten. It also allows you to top-up with just €1, unlike NS machines that have a minimum top-up of €4.


----------



## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> I also noticed Rodenrijs and Meijersplein metro stations accept credit cards at no extra cost. If that's the same at all RET machines it would appear that Rotterdam is the place for foreigners to top-up their OV-Chipkaarten. It also allows you to top-up with just €1, unlike NS machines that have a minimum top-up of €4.


GVB and RET accept CCs.


----------



## Suburbanist

What if they built a "border station" on an open field just after exit from Lille on LGV-Nord?

It would be a structure meant only for border control on UK-bound trains, optimized for that with a different than usual layout. For instance, passengers could exit the train and be processed on an airport-like counter, going sideways and accessing the same trains after going around, on the same level, past the passport control lines. With proper staffing, this could be done in 20 minutes. And such station could make it much easier for other services to/from London.


----------



## Road_UK

Because one: Lille is a huge agglomeration. There is not enough room. Not close to the city centre anyway. I know, I've lived there. 

And two: There is always what is called the Lille Loophole. Passengers not travelling to the UK but using Eurostar between Lille and Paris, Brussels can refuse UK border checks at all times, and local law enforcement are at hand to protect their interests. UK border agents have often been threatened with arrests. After all Lille, Paris and Brussels are in the middle of Schengen, not Britain.


----------



## verfmeer

Couldn't they build it at Calais Frethun. It is the last station before the tunnel. It is in the middle of a field with all the room you want. That way you can expand Services from London to all over the continent.


----------



## Road_UK

verfmeer said:


> Couldn't they build it at Calais Frethun. It is the last station before the tunnel. It is in the middle of a field with all the room you want. That way you can expand Services from London to all over the continent.


What, get all passengers who boarded the train at Lille, Paris and Brussels to get off the train for passport control? I can see easyJet providing a good alternative again...


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> Because one: Lille is a huge agglomeration. There is not enough room. Not close to the city centre anyway. I know, I've lived there.
> 
> And two: There is always what is called the Lille Loophole. Passengers not travelling to the UK but using Eurostar between Lille and Paris, Brussels can refuse UK border checks at all times, and local law enforcement are at hand to protect their interests. UK border agents have often bin threatened with arrests. After all Lille, Paris and Brussels are in the middle of Schengen, not Britain.


A station could be fit right here. It would be mostly a border processing facility. All passengers would disembark and go through control, next stop would be in UK already so these concerns are moot and no loophole would exist. Passengers disembarking in that station would go through a secondary exit out of the border control perimeter and just exit the place altogether.


----------



## AlexNL

MarcVD said:


> I don't see how they could possibly organize that in Brussels, given that
> the Eurostar terminal only has two tracks. Other tracks in the station are
> not fenced. And the two Eurostar tracks are stub-ended, they can only
> be accessed from the south.
> 
> Most probably this would be organized at Lille Europe - although this station
> has capacity problems too. But at least, it would allow to serve Lille without
> all the hassle that exists today.


Nope, as I said this will happen at Brussels. Not in Lille, not in Calais, but in BRUSSELS. The train will arrive at one of the regular platforms, everyone disembarks, train leaves for the Vorst maintenance yard and reverses back into the €* terminal from there.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Are passengers obliged to unload their baggages when coming from Aix-en-Provence? If so, the direct connection would be in one direction only, so it wouldn't be that worth making trains beyond Paris and Bruxelles (except for a few seasonal services). Good connections would be enough.


----------



## Road_UK

Moving the UK Border Agency back to London would be the best option for everybody. That way we can have trains moving between London and the whole of Europe without all this song and dance at stations within the Schengen area. The UK wishes to stay out of Schengen? Fine, but don't let them lying their agents around IN Schengen, eating up our infrastructure.


----------



## radamfi

Unfortunately, the UK won't allow trains to enter the country without being checked beforehand. In theory, an immigrant could pull the emergency handle once the train enters England and jump out of the door.


----------



## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> Unfortunately, the UK won't allow trains to enter the country without being checked beforehand. In theory, an immigrant could pull the emergency handle once the train enters England and jump out of the door.


Do high-speed trains trigger automatic breaking if someone push emergency buttons or pull handles?

I actually don't understand the rationale to give passengers the control over emergency stops on trains that still retain it. It is not like passengers can recognize modern emergencies on trains that the engineer couldn't, so the most useful thing could be something to alert the engineer or a third-person out of the train to take some procedure. 

Things like foreign object on tracks, track intrusion etc. are usually not visible to passengers at all, only to the control cockpit. Fire is an emergency, but modern trains have fire alarms on their own. Incidents between passengers are best not dealt by stopping a train. Medical emergencies are best dealt having the train pull over at the next station where EMR can reach faster.


----------



## Wilhem275

The engineer doesn't have complete knowledge of what happens behind him, and a lot of stuff can't be controlled by sensors.

A fire can be decetced fast by people, smoke, smell of burning/heating stuff, a window broken from an object... in the worst case, even a derailed axle may be signalled before it leads to a major derailment.
In the Eschede disaster several seconds passed between the first impact and the actual derailment, and the enquiry revealed that the consequences might have been less serious if the staff would have activated the emergency brakes (which they didn't due to wrong training).

Modern emergency brakes trigger an alarm in the cab, so that the driver can manage a stop at a planned spot, if in a tunnel. If the driver doesn't react, the train stops anyway.


----------



## Wilhem275

The engineer doesn't have complete knowledge of what happens behind him, and a lot of stuff can't be controlled by sensors.

A fire can be decetced fast by people, smoke, smell of burning/heating stuff, a window broken from an object... in the worst case, even a derailed axle may be signalled before it leads to a major derailment.
In the Eschede disaster several seconds passed between the first impact and the actual derailment, and the enquiry revealed that the consequences might have been less serious if the staff would have activated the emergency brakes (which they didn't due to wrong training).

Modern emergency brakes trigger an alarm in the cab, so that the driver can manage a stop at a planned spot, if in a tunnel. If the driver doesn't react, the train stops anyway.


My idea for immigration check is to perform them on board, between the last continental stop and Folkestone (even if you escape in the tunnel, it's pretty easy to find you before you see the UK...). Luggage can then be checked at St. Pancras.
Or, even simpler, the UK can cut all this crap...


----------



## radamfi

Wilhem275 said:


> My idea for immigration check is to perform them on board, between the last continental stop and Folkestone (even if you escape in the tunnel, it's pretty easy to find you before you see the UK...).


They used to do that in the early days of Eurostar. When I first used Eurostar to Brussels in 1994 I was checked on the train. The problem is that the immigration staff have to be on the train for a long time, especially if there is no stop between Lille and London. Even if the train stops at Calais and Ashford they still have a long time doing nothing. No one is prepared to pay for that.



Wilhem275 said:


> Or, even simpler, the UK can cut all this crap...


Unfortunately, our politicians listen too much to the right wing press (Daily Mail etc.) and that reflects on our immigration policy.


----------



## Suburbanist

I was wondering: the press is mostly quiet on the success of the Hanzelijn. Two other "big" rail project had had hiccups (Betuweroute and HSL-Zuid/Fyra), the Hanzelijn, albeit shorter, is working fine, just waiting for 200km/h trains to be deployed there. 

I also wonder if the complaints about "lost of fast connectivity" in Amersfoort were materialized or not.


----------



## M-NL

The Hanzelijn also has its hiccup: Due to a design error in the Drontermeertunnel trains with sufficient time tabel slack are urged to limit their speed (to something in the 80 to 100 km/h range) through the tunnel to reduce ear popping. The tunnel was originally designed for 200 km/h.


----------



## Slagathor

Yes, and that particular hiccup has featured relatively prominently in the press. Because they are vultures when it comes to infrastructure projects.


----------



## M-NL

And rightly so, despite the press most of the time having no clue what they're talking about.

Many infrastructure projects have the annoying habit of going way over budget. There are multiple reasons for that. Mainly: To limit the budget you calculate as little as possible foreseen and unforeseen expenses and ask for extra money later. If you have multiple options you have the cheapest one approved and then during building once you've passed the point of no return you change your plans to a more expensive variant.
And of course a big one: Until the last screw is put in we continue to make design changes.
One thing that remains interesting about any big project: a disproportionate amount of the budget is spent on talking not actually building.


----------



## LtBk

Why the train tunnel was downgraded to only speeds up to 100 km/h



> And rightly so, despite the press most of the time having no clue what they're talking about.


That's a worldwide trend unfortunately.


----------



## MrAronymous

It was constructed too narrow, so when trains go through it with high speeds it's uncomfortable for passengers (increased pressure on trains > ear popping).


----------



## LtBk

Any plans to fix it?


----------



## Surel

MrAronymous said:


> It always has to be tendered following EU directives if an aquisition/service/delivery costs more than a certain amount.


Do you have any link with specifics?


----------



## Slagathor

Is that a joke? That information is readily and widely available throughout the EU in all its official languages.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Will NS ever change it's livery? Many public transport companies change theirs every 10-20 years or so, and the NS livery seems very out of date. This is the visualization I came up with - all of the blue and much of the yellow has been replaced with sleek gray and black.


----------



## AlexNL

Surel said:


> Got one question on the NS acquisition of the rolling stock. What is the tendering procedure? Does NS have to announce open tenders, or is it allowed to buy rolling stock without tendering and directly award a contract?
> 
> Any links, also in Dutch are welcome.
> 
> Second question. Are there any foreseeable plans for open tendering on the long distance track? I.e. not only the regional relations. And this then allowing a combined traffic. E.g. NS operating the same route as the private operator? Are those long distance tracks subsidized? How?


Question 1: Yes, NS is obliged to issue public tenders for new rolling stock. They got an exemption for the new locomotives, but this was due to so called 'urgency'.

Question 2: There are no plans to open the network to competition from the Dutch state. The European Commission has put forward such proposals, but it will be a long time before those come into law.

Question 3: There is no subsidizing for the basic services as offered by NS. The profits from the long distance routes and real estate are used to fund loss-making services. However, there is some subsidizing involved for additional services such as the night trains in Brabant (during week ends) and local wishes (such as extra trains between regionally important cities).



BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> Will NS ever change it's livery? Many public transport companies change theirs every 10-20 years or so, and the NS livery seems very out of date. This is the visualization I came up with - all of the blue and much of the yellow has been replaced with sleek gray and black.


And yet you leave an enormous amount of yellow on the front side for no appearant reason... 

But honestly, I don't think NS needs to change its branding. The NS brand has a very strong presence in Dutch society, any Dutch man you talk to will say "NS" when you mention the colours yellow and blue.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

AlexNL said:


> And yet you leave an enormous amount of yellow on the front side for no appearant reason...


That is so that the approaching train can be seen from afar - it's like a high visibility jacket.


> But honestly, I don't think NS needs to change its branding. The NS brand has a very strong presence in Dutch society, any Dutch man you talk to will say "NS" when you mention the colours yellow and blue.


Oh.. I thought it might be like that - that's the reason why I stuck only with colors and logos that NS currently use - just got rid of the blue and changed the livery. Maybe it's just me - from where I am, we don't like such bright, contrasting colors and tend to paint everything gray...


----------



## AlexNL

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> That is so that the approaching train can be seen from afar - it's like a high visibility jacket.


Trains used to have that, but that requirement was abolished a couple of years ago. The added value of a white or yellow area on the nose is deemed too little to be of any effect, so it is no longer necessary.


> Oh.. I thought it might be like that - that's the reason why I stuck only with colors and logos that NS currently use - just got rid of the blue and changed the livery. Maybe it's just me - from where I am, we don't like such bright, contrasting colors and tend to paint everything gray...


Matter of personal preferences, I guess. I quite like NS's branding, especially when the trains have just been through the washing machine. The yellow really stands out then!


----------



## Wilhem275

Although I don't think NS should change its livery I like this proposal a lot, I always enjoy the dark grey/yellow contrast.

Front of trains usually must be bright for safety requirements, I knew locos allowed to NL network must have a white or yellow empty field (in Italy it's red).

EDIT:



AlexNL said:


> Trains used to have that, but that requirement was abolished a couple of years ago. The added value of a white or yellow area on the nose is deemed too little to be of any effect, so it is no longer necessary.


So know there's complete freedom of colours?


----------



## MrAronymous

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> Will NS ever change it's livery? Many public transport companies change theirs every 10-20 years or so, and the NS livery seems very out of date. This is the visualization I came up with - all of the blue and much of the yellow has been replaced with sleek gray and black.


Blasphemy.


----------



## Surel

Slagathor said:


> Is that a joke? That information is readily and widely available throughout the EU in all its official languages.


Why? The directive is not specific and allows various methods. I am simply interested in the specific procedure that the NS folows or should follow. Someone certainly put it on paper, rigt?

I dont get understand your bewilderment, it would be quite nice if a link to EU Directive would be an answer to all legal questions and procedures in all the member states, it is not so though...


----------



## Surel

AlexNL said:


> Question 1: Yes, NS is obliged to issue public tenders for new rolling stock. They got an exemption for the new locomotives, but this was due to so called 'urgency'.
> 
> Question 2: There are no plans to open the network to competition from the Dutch state. The European Commission has put forward such proposals, but it will be a long time before those come into law.
> 
> Question 3: There is no subsidizing for the basic services as offered by NS. The profits from the long distance routes and real estate are used to fund loss-making services. However, there is some subsidizing involved for additional services such as the night trains in Brabant (during week ends) and local wishes (such as extra trains between regionally important cities).


Thank you. Would you have any links (in Dutch is ok) on the latest tenders and the procedure that is followed?

As about opening the network. I guess there is a difference between the long distance service and the regional service? How is the regional service tendered, is it tendered everywhere or not? And who decides about it? I guess that it is funded by the public money, isn't it? If it is not tendered isn't it in fact subsidized then? I know lots of questions. Is there some overview or document where would most of those questions be answered and made clear? Thanks.


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> EDIT:
> 
> So know there's complete freedom of colours?


Yes, there is.

A couple of years ago (2011 or 2012), DB Schenker was redoing the livery on the 1800 locos they acquired from NS. Those locomotives were NS yellow but as DB's main color is red, the locomotives had to become red as well. When the first loco was outshopped, it had a large white area on its nose with an inverted DB logo on it - the contrast area. 

I thought it looked weird, so I sent an e-mail to the inspectorate asking about the rules and logic behind the requirement to have at least 1 m² in a highly visible colour. Their reply was that the contrast area was not needed anymore since 2010, something which I forwarded to some contacts of mine. 

One of them relayed it back to DB Schenker, who quickly altered their design. The 2nd locomotive that was outshopped did not carry the contrast area, instead it was adorned with the same nose pattern as the other DB locos. 




Surel said:


> Thank you. Would you have any links (in Dutch is ok) on the latest tenders and the procedure that is followed?


Most (if not all) public tenders in the Netherlands are placed on www.tenderned.nl. If you're looking for NS specific tenders about rolling stock, search for "NS Financial Services" or "NS Lease".


> As about opening the network. I guess there is a difference between the long distance service and the regional service?


Domestic long distance services along with lots of regional services are all operated by NS on a concessionary basic, which is awarded directly for a 10 year period. The government is currently working on finalizing the concession period for 1-1-2015 - 31-12-2024.



> How is the regional service tendered, is it tendered everywhere or not? And who decides about it?


In some parts of the Netherlands the regional services have been transferred to a lower government (usually a province), which puts those services out to tender. The decision about which lower government gets to put out services for tendering is decided by the nationwide government in The Hague.



> I guess that it is funded by the public money, isn't it? If it is not tendered isn't it in fact subsidized then? I know lots of questions. Is there some overview or document where would most of those questions be answered and made clear? Thanks.


Yes, there's lots of taxpayer money involved in operating these trains. When they were still operated by NS there was taxpayer money involved and there still is today. 


The areas where you will find most tendered services are mostly rural, where the services were loss-making for Utrecht-based NS. Services ran with low frequencies, low ridership and old rolling stock.

After transferring control to the provinces, they started putting these services out for tender. The governments usually put out a combined package to tender: both bus and train services would be granted to an operator at the same time. The governments made a huge sack of money available for this, but in return they asked for higher frequencies, newer rolling stock and an overall better passenger rating.

And they succeeded in this: all private operators have increased frequencies, ridership has gone up, trains are more punctual and passenger satisfaction has increased. To top it all off, the amount of taxpayer money required to offer the services has been lowered.


----------



## 3737

AlexNL said:


> A couple of years ago (2011 or 2012), DB Schenker was redoing the livery on the 1800 locos they acquired from NS. Those locomotives were NS yellow but as DB's main color is red, the locomotives had to become red as well. When the first loco was outshopped, it had a large white area on its nose with an inverted DB logo on it - the contrast area.


So it was you who allerted them :lol: .
Something similar happened to the 419.
When the first the first mat 64 were decomissioned in 2004, the 419 was used to train drivers at specific routes. Some train enthousiast+Nedtrain decided to paint the train green (pre 70s livery). But because it wasn't a historic train but still used by NS to train drivers it got a strange white nose.








Link
Later in 2004 it was decomisioned again and was donated to a foundation to preserve the 419. At that moment it became a historic train and it lost it's strange white nose.








Link

Also today they started testing with th 186001 on a rainy day.
To bad they used rolling stock with the Fyra livery.








Link


----------



## Wilhem275

Eh eh eh eh eh eh eh 










All for the same price... I love DB's site


----------



## da_scotty

Why bother with the massive detour via Almere/Duivendrecht/Bijlmer? Sightseeing?

There is a half-hourly train from Amsterdam CS-Den Haag HS on weekdays, in the weekends you only have a cross-platform change at Leiden! Much easier!


----------



## Wilhem275

Basically sightseeing around Amsterdam's node, just to look at some traffic going by.

If it was for the shortest route, then the CNL stops in Utrecth too


----------



## M-NL

Interesting though that train 4041 is classified as a RE. Train series 4000 is the NS Sprinter on the Rotterdam - Uitgeest route and stops at pretty much all intermediate stations. I would thus have classified this train as a RB.


----------



## Surel

AlexNL said:


> Most (if not all) public tenders in the Netherlands are placed on www.tenderned.nl. If you're looking for NS specific tenders about rolling stock, search for "NS Financial Services" or "NS Lease".


I have found this, its seems, major tender for the future EMUs on the NS network. https://www.tenderned.nl/tenderned-...uidigemenu/aankondigingen/cid/745870/cvp/join

As the award criteria applied are not yet present and I did not find any older rolling stock tenders I would like to ask you if you could direct me at some older tender which had been completed and there would be a award criteria as well as negotiation report available.

I guess NS prefers using negotiation in its rolling stock tendering (but also in other tendering). Why is that with such big contracts? I notice that Rijkswaterstaat also prefers negotiation to the open procedure.


----------



## Wilhem275

M-NL said:


> Interesting though that train 4041 is classified as a RE. Train series 4000 is the NS Sprinter on the Rotterdam - Uitgeest route and stops at pretty much all intermediate stations. I would thus have classified this train as a RB.


That surprised me too, but DB's Hafas is not very precise when it comes to classification systems used abroad. I just tried to look for a Syntus service and they show it, but with no category at all (just the number).

When they receive correct info, they can also fit the right name in the timetable, so the "Sprinter" category could actually be used. Or at least using the "R" (Regional) general label used for any stoptrain ("RB" means nothing to anyone not frequenting Germany).

"RE" is completely wrong in the Sprinter context. Even because the IC service itself is something closer to the German RE concept.


----------



## JeroenMostert

*Creditcards now accepted by most ticket-machines.*

http://www.treinreiziger.nl/actueel...elijk_bij_grootste_deel_kaartautomaten-146425


> However, travelers must pay 50 cents extra if they want to pay with credit card. At 90% of the stations can be paid by credit card (VISA or Mastercard), the rest of the stations follow until end of September.


List of stations accepting creditcards:http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/assets/NS/pdf/credit-card-station-nl.pdf


----------



## Coccodrillo

3737 said:


> The 186001 arrived today at it's new home at watergraafsmeer workshop.
> Tomorrow it will start testing between Amsterdam and Deventer.
> 
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd....0534092_767493636627890_630306451616725_n.jpg
> 
> link


That "E" before the "186" looks Italian. If thex followed the Dutch numebring system, it would have had a 4-digit number. And using the German syste, it wouldn't have had the "E".

As far I know, when first German 189 locos entered in Italy they were "reclassified" as E 189. Then Swiss Re 484 (Bombardier AC/DC Traxx) were renamed E 484 on the front panel (remaining Re 484 on sides), and DC-only Traxx locos bought by Italian companies became known as E 483 (being similar to E/Re 484).


----------



## radamfi

LOL, I thought my first post didn't get through.


----------



## radamfi

Do the eenmalige chipkaarten allow break of journey? If so, are the barriers clever enough to know if the station where you break your journey is on a valid route between the origin and destination stations?


----------



## verfmeer

At the moment there aren't any closed stations if I'm right (Woerden maybe), so you don't have to check out or in if you use your eenmalige chipkaart. There might be a rule that it is only valid for a few hours after check-in, but I don't know that.


----------



## radamfi

verfmeer said:


> At the moment there aren't any closed stations if I'm right (Woerden maybe), so you don't have to check out or in if you use your eenmalige chipkaart. There might be a rule that it is only valid for a few hours after check-in, but I don't know that.



I am really thinking about when the gates are shut, then you will have to touch out then back in again.


----------



## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> Could it be that NS International (new brand of NS Hi-Speed) buys some second-hand TGVs from SNCF and fit them to run on the route?


Unlikely. First of all, SNCF doesn't seem interested in selling them, in fact they
send them to demolition as soon as they are taken out of service just to 
ensure they won't be re-sold. And second, it's very expensive to add 3000V
capability to a train that has been initially designed to run under 1500V only.
For such trains, with a quite limited residual life, the cost would be too high.


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> Unlikely. First of all, SNCF doesn't seem interested in selling them, in fact they send them to demolition as soon as they are taken out of service just to
> ensure they won't be re-sold.


Is that legal? Class 1200 was already at the scrap yard and some even partly scrapped when ACTS won a court case against NS based on some European law stating that NS had to enable the competition to buy out of service equipment first before being scrapped. If it's indeed a European law SNCF has to do the same.

Nice thing is that the class 1200 is still around and ACTS doesn't even exist anymore.


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> Is that legal?


Probably not, but as long as no potential buyer complains, it will probably
continue that way.

I remember indeed the NS 1200 case, they even asked a signed deal with
the scrapyard company that they would not resell any part, and specifically
not the ATB boxes...


----------



## AlexNL

A long while ago I read an article about the oldest TGV sets. Appearantly, the quality is much better than was anticipated by its designers and SNCF is considering on giving the sets a 2nd life in the intercity transport sector once their use as a HST runs out. This would be somewhere around the 2018 timeframe.


----------



## 3737

M-NL said:


> Class 1200 was already at the scrap yard and some even partly scrapped when ACTS won a court case against NS based on some European law stating that NS had to enable the competition to buy out of service equipment first before being scrapped.


Some were literally saved from the scrapyard.
The 1215 and 1225 were allready at the scrapyard when they were saved by ACTS (large image).









Link

Both the 1215 (1251) and 1225 (1252) are still in active service as of today.
In 2011 they had a reunion to celebrate the 60 year anniversary of the class 1200. 








link

The 1251 even got a new paintjob this year to celebrate the 175th birthday of the Dutch railways.









Strange thing is that most class 1600 are sold to private cargo companies at this moment.


----------



## M-NL

3737 said:


> Strange thing is that most class 1600 are sold to private cargo companies at this moment.


That isn't strange. Despite them still being perfectly good locomotives (in France almost all BB7200, BB15000 and BB22200's are also still in service, despite being a few years older), for DB Schenker they're not practical. They can't be used on the Betuwe route, nor abroad, while DB Schenker has a fleet of multi system loco's. Domestically there are plenty of routes they can be used on, they're just not served by DB Schenker anymore.


----------



## MarcVD

AlexNL said:


> A long while ago I read an article about the oldest TGV sets. Appearantly, the quality is much better than was anticipated by its designers and SNCF is considering on giving the sets a 2nd life in the intercity transport sector once their use as a HST runs out. This would be somewhere around the 2018 timeframe.


That idea has now been sidelined in favor of new EMUs and D/EMUs specialized in intercity services. Most probably extrapolation of already
existing designs like Regiolis and Regio2N, adapted for a higher speed.


----------



## Wilhem275

verfmeer said:


> At the moment there aren't any closed stations if I'm right (Woerden maybe)


Can I have a confirmation of this? Sunday I'll be having a weird trip around many stations and I'd like not getting stuck in barriers 

BTW, people, let's organize a meeting of this topic's people


----------



## AlexNL

As of last Tuesday, the gates in Woerden are closed. They open by checking in or out with an OV-chipkaart, a disposable ticket, or a paper ticket which has a barcode. If you have none of those, there is an SOS & Info post which will get you in touch with an operator who can open the gates remotely.

During rush hour the gates are also closed at the following stations: Rotterdam Alexander, Almere Centrum, Houten and Enschede. This is an experiment to monitor how passengers react to the closed gates, so that NS can change things before a national roll-out.


----------



## Wilhem275

So this happens only in Woerden?


----------



## radamfi

Wilhem275 said:


> So this happens only in Woerden?


In peak times also at the places AlexNL mentions above.

I don't know if this is normal, but I was at either Almere Centrum or Lelystad a few weeks or a few months ago, not at peak time, and all the barriers were closed apart from one. I was breaking my journey there so didn't need to touch in or touch out so I used the open barrier.

What sort of ticket have you got, or will get for your day trip?


----------



## Wilhem275

Actually I have a DB ticket (which was mainly a Munich - Amsterdam) where I specified to touch some destinations in NL before ending in Den Haag HS, as part of the same travel.
This is the ticket: http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/Wilhem275/Treni/m-dh_zps7d944563.png~original

(I probably won't reach Almere, just Weesp)

I'm not even sure it is actually accepted by NS as a valid ticket! Two years ago I did the same and NS staff considered that ok, but I never understood if they really checked it or they just read the destination and didn't want to bother... so I'm still worried they'll kick me in the nuts if I show them this thing...


----------



## radamfi

Wilhem275 said:


> Actually I have a DB ticket (which was mainly a Munich - Amsterdam) where I specified to touch some destinations in NL before ending in Den Haag HS, as part of the same travel.
> This is the ticket: http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/Wilhem275/Treni/m-dh_zps7d944563.png~original
> 
> (I probably won't reach Almere, just Weesp)
> 
> I'm not even sure it is actually accepted by NS as a valid ticket! Two years ago I did the same and NS staff considered that ok, but I never understood if they really checked it or they just read the destination and didn't want to bother... so I'm still worried they'll kick me in the nuts if I show them this thing...


I find that NS staff aren't very fussy about that sort of thing. As long as you have some kind of ticket they seem to give you the benefit of the doubt if they are not sure about validity. They have never checked my ID when travelling on an e-ticket, for example.

It is different to a lot of British staff which refuse a ticket if it isn't obviously valid and only if you argue they might say "Well I'll let you off this time..." Especially when you get specialised "Revenue Protection Inspectors" whose only job is to catch people without a ticket. The British ticketing system is very complicated so a lot of people get caught out.

It would be interesting to know if the barcode on the DB ticket scans on the gate, though, even if you don't need to scan it because the barrier is open. If you follow the route that is printed on the ticket I can't see why you would have a problem, even though the route is unusual.


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> Actually I have a DB ticket (which was mainly a Munich - Amsterdam) where I specified to touch some destinations in NL before ending in Den Haag HS, as part of the same travel.
> This is the ticket: http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/Wilhem275/Treni/m-dh_zps7d944563.png~original
> 
> (I probably won't reach Almere, just Weesp)
> 
> I'm not even sure it is actually accepted by NS as a valid ticket! Two years ago I did the same and NS staff considered that ok, but I never understood if they really checked it or they just read the destination and didn't want to bother... so I'm still worried they'll kick me in the nuts if I show them this thing...


I doubt that, it looks like an entirely valid DB ticket for European destinations. I've had Thalys tickets that looked a lot closer to a photoshop forgery and nobody ever batted an eyelid at those either.


----------



## Wilhem275

That's what I wanted to hear 

The only time I had a problem was on the Amsterdam - Berlin IC, with DB staff not accepting DB ticket because, they said, it was not valid before Bad Bentheim.
Actually there was a mistake in the ticket, generated by their ticketing system, so that the tariff codes did not comply with the planned travel (codes that the user is not supposed to know).

Anyway, if I find a closed gate I'll try the barcode, just for the sake of it 


PS: at the moment my biggest issue, apart from not having a house, is discovering if I can obtain an OV-studentenkaart. If so, I'll proclaim myself new King of the Netherlands.


----------



## radamfi

Last week I used the new Antwerpen to Eindhoven bus, run by DB, and I had a normal DB e-ticket same as you get for the train. The driver didn't bother to check the ID. However, although the bus was branded DB, the bus had a Dutch numberplate and had a Dutch speaking driver (so presumably Dutch or Belgian). Maybe my ID would have been checked if the driver was German!


----------



## Surel

Suburbanist said:


> Compared to the way many other countries manage it, requiring the transportation companies to fund these discount themselves with cross-subsidization. Since the benefits are clearly separated from fare policy of NS or other train companies, it is easy to adjust them without having to revamp the whole thing (right now free travel for students is under fire).


I thought that student and similar discounts are required and subsidized by the state in all the EU.

That would be a very stupid thing to do. Not only would it reduce welfare rapidly and have long lasting negative external effects due to worsening the access to the education. It would be a huge bomb to the NS incomes. I think one forth of all passenger/kms are made by the students.



Suburbanist said:


> Public != free at end-user point.


Public transport is meant to be used by the public, because otherwise the public lacks the service. If you construct the fare with the intention of make it prohibitive for certain part of public to use it at certain hours. You are quite clearly discriminating (in the economic sense) and you are putting the concept on its head. That is not what a public institution should be doing. It should instead look at the possibilities how to saturate that public demand.

Thus I don´t see reasoning of increased fare with access reduction as something legit. Temporarily, ok. But in the long term it is a stupid way to go.


----------



## AlexNL

This just in: the first V250 trains will probably be returned to Italy this weekend. The necessary permits have almost been arranged, NS doesn't want to wait much longer.

The V250 ran its first revenue earning service on July 29th, 2012 between Amsterdam and Rotterdam, I was one of the people on board. I never was a fan of the V250 or the Fyra concept, but I never expected this to happen. Unfortunately, because what passengers are getting in return is much, much worse.


----------



## Suburbanist

Surel said:


> I thought that student and similar discounts are required and subsidized by the state in all the EU.
> 
> That would be a very stupid thing to do. Not only would it reduce welfare rapidly and have long lasting negative external effects due to worsening the access to the education. It would be a huge bomb to the NS incomes. I think one forth of all passenger/kms are made by the students.


I don't think there is any EU mandate for student discounts. I surely know several countries where no such train ticket discount exists. 

The debate is a bit more complex: right now, full-time students of higher education get 4 years of a "free" transportation card, which can be either a weekend+holidays or a weekday pass. This allows them to travel, for free, on any form of regular charged public transport, from InterCity trains to the fast ferries in Rotterdam. 

CEntral government has agreements with the transportation companies to pay them, and it does indeed pay them nicely: the cost of an OV-Studentenchipkaart is around € 1600/year. There were plans to substitute the grant that covers it by loans for those that wnated to use it, as there is some perception the system is a bit abused.

In the end, it was decided the student pass will stay as a grant, but savings will have to be found to lower the cost. Namely and chiefly, government wants universities to, for the extent it is possible, stop having activities that start before 10.00 in the morning, so that pressure for morning peak travel is reduced and therefore costs (I don't know the details of contracts government signs with transport operators). The government suggested universities "shifted" most their opreations 2 hours forward, starting things at 9.45 and ending most classes at around 19.45, therefore reducing peak demand for travel, then pass will be kept as a grant-nature. 

It is not mandatory, but as an insider (of a uni. administration, not transport company) I can tell there has been quite a "strong" message coming to the unis. from the minister in terms of making serious plans to adjust their daily schedules and an even stronger request to delay classes or other activities that attract many students on Monday morning until after 9.30. 

There had never been a plan to scrap things altogether and charge students for the whole thing.




> Public transport is meant to be used by the public, because otherwise the public lacks the service. If you construct the fare with the intention of make it prohibitive for certain part of public to use it at certain hours. You are quite clearly discriminating (in the economic sense) and you are putting the concept on its head. That is not what a public institution should be doing. It should instead look at the possibilities how to saturate that public demand.


At least with NS, the problem is the following: on most trunk lines, capacity is a problem at peak times. Only expensive projects, some of them ongoing, can increase capacity, can address several bottlenecks. The train system cannot just grow by putting more trains there, because there are no paths available.


----------



## radamfi

Surel said:


> If you take the trains into account then it might hold. If we talk about just local public transport..not true.


Are you saying that local public transport is better in the Netherlands than Switzerland?


----------



## Road_UK

I think they are both as good?


----------



## radamfi

K_ said:


> What about tourists?
> They are big users of the facilities at stations...


Well, some of them may have an OV-Chipkaart, but many won't. The shops will therefore miss some business, but nothing like that of British stations where you can only access the platform areas if you have a ticket. Of course, Dutch tourists will mostly have an OV-Chipkaart.

In much of Britain, you are not even allowed to access platform areas without a ticket where there are no gates, as they are a "compulsory ticket area". If you get caught walking back from the platform by an inspector, they could give you a penalty fare, even if you didn't get on a train.

For most of their railway history, Britain and Ireland have used barriers to stop passengers reaching the platforms unless they have a ticket. There was a class of train worker called the 'ticket collector'. Of course that was very labour intensive, so that generally stopped in Britain in the 80s, replaced by so called 'open stations'. After privatisation in the mid 90s, the train companies decided to mostly abandon open stations in favour of automatic barriers.


----------



## radamfi

Road_UK said:


> I think they are both as good?


Certainly they are the best two in the world. In general, my favourite country is NL but I have to give CH the slight edge on public transport because the rail network is so much more comprehensive and there CH is more likely to run services with trams and trolleybuses rather than diesel buses.


----------



## MrAronymous

K_ said:


> In Switzerland you would normally only have to deal with a validator or a ticket vending machine once a day, at the beginning of your trip. Most people have transit passes, this requires you to go to the ticket office or a machine once a year, and after that all you need to do is have your pass with you...


Doesn't matter. It's the principle of your story: Being in a hurry and therefore not having a valid proof of payment. You running past the pole could be Switzerlandized to you running through the station directly to the train running straight past the ticket machine. It's not the systems fault.



K_ said:


> Actually you can buy S-Bahn tickets from any DB ticket vending machine. If you arrive by train you don't even need to buy an S-Bahn ticket...


Are S-bahns operated by DB? That would explain a lot.



K_ said:


> There is actually a station in The Netherlands where only an NMBS train stops. It has only an NS card reader. What is according to you the procedure when traveling to/from that station?


Buy a valid NMBS ticket then. It's puzzeling to me why you even ask. Of course there have to NMBS tickets available at a ticket machine of some sort. And I guess the NS reader is for unforseen circumstances. Makes sense to place them everywhere on the network now so when you might have to use the station you don't have thousands of people filling in forms to have their €20 deposit back because they were unable to check out. Or NS just didn't give it any thought and just equipped all the stations they own.



K_ said:


> The system is not going to keep fare evaders out.


Not completely, but it's a good deterrent.



K_ said:


> If validating before travel is so logical, then why does almost no railway require it?


Other companies don't sell dateless tickets? NS used to. You had to validate it. And of course the tickets with the date on them have been _validated_ the moment they go through the ticket machine and get a date/time stamp.


----------



## AlexNL

> There is actually a station in The Netherlands where only an NMBS train stops. It has only an NS card reader. What is according to you the procedure when traveling to/from that station?


That station is Eijsden, it is one of the few stations which belong to the NS operated Hoofdrailnet but that are not served by NS. Other stations are Enschede de Eschmarke and Glanerbrug (trains operated by DB Regio). This has to do with some technical limitations: between Eijsden and Maastricht-Randwijck there is a power change (Eijsden is under Belgian 3 kV), and between Enschede and Glanerbrug there's no OHLE at all. 

As NS trains can't reach those stations but NMBS and DB do, the trains are run by those companies. Because the stations belong to the NS network from a concessionary point of view, there are NS validators on the platforms.


----------



## Surel

radamfi said:


> Are you saying that local public transport is better in the Netherlands than Switzerland?


No. I am saying that if I would not take into the account the rail network, or, in another way, I would consider only the local public transport, not only Switzerland (if), in Europe, has a better local public transport than the Netherlands.


----------



## Surel

Suburbanist said:


> At least with NS, the problem is the following: on most trunk lines, capacity is a problem at peak times. Only expensive projects, some of them ongoing, can increase capacity, can address several bottlenecks. The train system cannot just grow by putting more trains there, because there are no paths available.


Therefore I said, temporarily ok.

Let's put it in another way. NS wants to achieve a _Metro _like system. Imagine a metro, where rush hour fares would be doubled... Yeah, profitable, but pretty much dumb.


----------



## MrAronymous

Why dumb? You prefer this? Preventing that _and_ making more money, seems like a good strategy. Remember there are already crowds now in some places.


----------



## Suburbanist

Surel said:


> Therefore I said, temporarily ok.
> 
> Let's put it in another way. NS wants to achieve a _Metro _like system. Imagine a metro, where rush hour fares would be doubled... Yeah, profitable, but pretty much dumb.


That already happens, almost.

Everyone that uses trains more than 200km/year is better off with the 40% off-peak card.

Most people train user have the card. So there is alrady de-facto peak fares that 67% more expensive at peak times (6.30-9.00; 16.30-19.00 weekdays)

But that is not all, *NS got a preliminary authorization to raise fares and subscriptions allowing peak time traffic by 10% and 6%, respectively, while also lowering the basic off-peak fares by 17%* (base fares, before accounting for discounts).


----------



## radamfi

In Switzerland, a regular single fare is the same price all day long, as it is in the Netherlands. However, you do kind of pay 67% more in peak hours in the Netherlands as the Dal Voordeel gives 40% off outside rush hours and the Dal Voordeel only costs €50 a year. Even in Switzerland, they charge 22% more for the day ticket before 0900 (71 vs 58 CHF)


----------



## Surel

MrAronymous said:


> Why dumb? You prefer this? Preventing that _and_ making more money, seems like a good strategy.


I did not notice that NL is Mumbai. Would flat fare make Mumbai out of NL in the long term? It is about the goals that you want to achieve and that you set. If you set a goal for a system that is able to handle the rush hour, you will get there. It works on the roads. It works on the rails as well.

Now if you can't temporarily increase the capacity, you need to implement some measures. The key word is temporarily. Another important thing is that the overcrowding is quite locally specific. Not all the lines suffer from the same effect. Flat adoption of differentiated fares is then not optimal, right?

Third, I don't think that a public service should be there to make money. It's first and utmost goal is to produce welfare, not create profit. If I should concentrate on making money, I would privatize the ProRail and NS :lol:.


----------



## Coccodrillo

radamfi said:


> In Switzerland, a regular single fare is the same price all day long...


But not for a long time from now, I fear.


----------



## Road_UK

MrAronymous said:


> Are S-bahns operated by DB? That would explain a lot.


Some are indeed...


----------



## Surel

Suburbanist said:


> That already happens, almost.
> 
> Everyone that uses trains more than 200km/year is better off with the 40% off-peak card.
> 
> Most people train user have the card. So there is alrady de-facto peak fares that 67% more expensive at peak times (6.30-9.00; 16.30-19.00 weekdays)
> 
> But that is not all, *NS got a preliminary authorization to raise fares and subscriptions allowing peak time traffic by 10% and 6%, respectively, while also lowering the basic off-peak fares by 17%* (base fares, before accounting for discounts).


I know that it happens. And I think nothing good of it.


----------



## radamfi

Again, I think it is interesting to demonstrate the contrast in Britain, this time regarding rush hour fares. A return ticket from London to Manchester (300 km) costs 321 GBP in rush hours, more than 4 times what it costs outside rush hours (79.70 GBP). And if you book well in advance, you can get that for as little as 12.50 GBP single.


----------



## Road_UK

radamfi said:


> Again, I think it is interesting to demonstrate the contrast in Britain, this time regarding rush hour fares. A return ticket from London to Manchester (300 km) costs 321 GBP in rush hours, more than 4 times what it costs outside rush hours (79.70 GBP). And if you book well in advance, you can get that for as little as 12.50 GBP single.


Britain has gone over the top treating train fares as airline pricing. I unexpectedly had to take the train once from Leeds to Stevenage, paying 92 GBP. Compare that with the fare (fair) I paid once for going from Jenbach (Austria) to Turin for 60 euros, also pay as I went...


----------



## Surel

K_ said:


> Do you know what profit is? It means that what you produce is worth more than what you consume. if you do this, you do increase total welfare.
> Of course, all externalities must be taken in to acount, and PT has (sometimes quite large) positive externalities that do justify in some cases a public subsidy. But the operators themselves should nevertheless still try to make a profit.


I did not say that a public service should be in loss either. Btw, there are not that many PT companies that are "profitable" without taping into the public money. When this taping into the public money happens without competition, the profit is just a word without market meaning anyway.

You should differentiate making profit and working efficiently here. PT should indeed be efficient. Efficiency is what creates welfare, not profit. If you would argue that more profitable PT company means more welfare, you would need to prove that, the additional profit the PT company makes is able to offset for the loss the customers incur. *I.e. would you be able to redistribute the additional profit so that all the customers would be the same happy as before the change and there would still be left some profit for the owner? Then, and only then, you created welfare*.

In practice. Imagine two hypothetical situations.

NS runs 10 trains in the peak hours and 1 train in the off peak hours. The total costs incurred are 11 euro. NS charges 2 and 1 euro respectively and makes 10 euro profit.

Now, NS wants to increase that profit. NS increases the charge to 3 and 1 euro respectively and changes the number of the trains to 8 and 3 respectively. It makes 16 euros profit now. Did this increase the welfare? Hardly so.

If you take that 6 euro extra profit and distribute it to the customers with the higher charge, you don't have enough to distribute it to all of them. So you will have two trains of frustrated customers in the peak hours, because of the higher charge. You have also customers that now travel off peak and keep that one euro. But just before the moment, they were willing to pay two for traveling in the peak hours. Thus, the peak hour travel has more value to them than the off peak 1 euro savings. They are not happier either.

You see, the real welfare increase comes through efficiency and not through profit increase. If the NS was able to either keep the number of peak trains stable, or reduce the costs in order to have more profit that could be redistributed, than we could perhaps talk about welfare increase. And don't let me start about the externalities .

Changing the profit of one economic subject without changing it's efficiency is only changing the distribution of the welfare in the society, not increasing it.


----------



## K_

aleander said:


> No, making people stay in hotels is in no way a good thing. What you'd want would be people living closer to their jobs, but as long as we can't guarantee that families will be able to find jobs in one place, that isn't something we can really fix.


No, if it is cheaper to stay in a hotel than travel during rush hour this means that it costs less to provide a hotel room than a train seat during rush hour. It is thus efficient to stay in a hotel.



> No. It only means you sold it for more than it cost you to produce it. Just because it made you a profit doesn't mean your customer couldn't get a bigger profit in another manner.


You do know what "sold" means right? It means that someone valued your product more than the price you asked for it. So your product is, to the consumer worth worth at least a certain amount. That fact that the value might be a lot more than what you ask yourself only means that you've given some of the added value away for free. 
If the customer can get more value for less somewhere else, then somewhere else he will go.



> In fact, absent regulations, it often makes sense to reduce the welfare of your customers, business partners and employees, usually to increase their dependence on you.


That reducing the welfare of your customer increases profits is something I know no example of. It doesn't make sense. 



> This risks going off topic, but it's pretty obvious that I'm seeing a large benefit in the freedom to move acquired by making at least urban and preferably suburban public traffic funded fully from tax money.


The "benefit" is what I referred to with the "positive externality". And I agree that it should be considered. This justifies subsidies, it does not justify making it fully tax payer funded, as this would actually reduce the benefit again (by encouraging inefficient mobility behavior)


----------



## K_

Surel said:


> In practice. Imagine two hypothetical situations.
> 
> NS runs 10 trains in the peak hours and 1 train in the off peak hours. The total costs incurred are 11 euro. NS charges 2 and 1 euro respectively and makes 10 euro profit.
> 
> Now, NS wants to increase that profit. NS increases the charge to 3 and 1 euro respectively and changes the number of the trains to 8 and 3 respectively. It makes 16 euros profit now. Did this increase the welfare? Hardly so.


Why not? Running more trains off peak requires less rolling stock in total. So NS is producing its services consuming less resources. So NS has just become more efficient.


----------



## Surel

K_ said:


> Why not? Running more trains off peak requires less rolling stock in total. So NS is producing its services consuming less resources. So NS has just become more efficient.


Good point to the example. The real point is, would the NS save enough to compensate the customers to make them evenly satisfied as before the change?

As about your profit increase x welfare decrease doubts. One of the most obvious examples is e.g. decreasing quality of certain products (e.g. chips) to be able to discriminate and segment the market. Collusion is even more simple example.


----------



## Suburbanist

*NS to provide alternative transportation after last train in case of delays/cancellation*

As a new concession contract (2015-2015) is going to be signed between the ministries and NS, the rail operation company will be required to arrange, provide and fund alternative transportation to the homes of passengers that are left stranded in case the last viable train trip of the day is broken due do delays, detours or cancellations. 

NS has some obligations to do it now, but the system for claims is clumsy, and there are ambiguities, such as in case of weather-related delays or those caused by foreign objects/bodies on tracks. Now, apparently, the process will be much more streamlines, instead of refunding the occasional tax bill after forms are sent, NS will have to actively organize itself alternative transportation for stranded passengers by bus, taxi or other means.


----------



## K_

Surel said:


> Good point to the example. The real point is, would the NS save enough to compensate the customers to make them evenly satisfied as before the change?


This doesn't matter. Every person traveling by train is by his actions demonstrating that the trip is worth to him, at least what he paid for it. 



> As about your profit increase x welfare decrease doubts. One of the most obvious examples is e.g. decreasing quality of certain products (e.g. chips) to be able to discriminate and segment the market.


This practice doesn't decrease welfare, it just does allow companies to claim some surplus back. Which then usually goes in to more products. 
(There aren't a lot of companies making big profits after all... most of the added value goes to the customers and the employees.)


> Collusion is even more simple example.


Collusion is very hard to maintain, absent government support, as the incentive to break it is very strong. That is why so few examples actually exist.


----------



## Surel

K_ said:


> This doesn't matter. Every person traveling by train is by his actions demonstrating that the trip is worth to him, at least what he paid for it.


Are you familiar with the Edgeworth box? The welfare can be analyzed on the the same principle. Any change has to be Pareto efficient in order to not decrease the welfare. The increase in the profits would have to increase the welfare at least as much as to offset the decreased welfare due to the higher ticket price. The simple way how you could analyze this is to say that the increased profit would have to be able to make the customers if distributed to them evenly happy as they were in the old situation.



K_ said:


> This practice doesn't decrease welfare, it just does allow companies to claim some surplus back. Which then usually goes in to more products.
> (There aren't a lot of companies making big profits after all... most of the added value goes to the customers and the employees.)


It decreases the welfare as it decreases the quality of the already made product at costs. I.e. it is a practice that moves the surplus from the consumer to the producer at the costs of the welfare. The surplus could be captured in some other way btw (e.g. income based pricing).

We can continue this in PM if you want.


----------



## verfmeer

K_ said:


> No, if it is cheaper to stay in a hotel than travel during rush hour this means that it costs less to provide a hotel room than a train seat during rush hour. It is thus efficient to stay in a hotel.


The goal for every community is to increase wellbeing of its members. Economic welfare is only part of it. Relationships, freedom, and a feeling of usefulness are equally or even more important. If you want to increase these values, you might need to decrease the economic value of your country. Living apart from family and friends lowers the relationship value dramaticly. To make that worth it, other values have to increase more. I don't think that the pure increase of economic value is worth the decrease of the relationship value. Therefore, this is a bad idea.

If you only value economic values, you can get a South Korean society. Schools and parents only focus on high grates, companies expect people to work long hours and people's psychological state isn't important. Therefore South Korea has the highest suicide rate of the world, because the non-economic values aren't valued high enough by the people in power. I am happy that I live in a country where this isn't the case, and will try to fight everything that goes against it.


----------



## aleander

K_ said:


> That reducing the welfare of your customer increases profits is something I know no example of. It doesn't make sense.


I don't feel like playing cat and mouse with the general idea of trickle-down economics, because that's mostly tiresome, but I'll point out there are entire businesses that relied on such decrease to even get started - see, for example, antiperspirants, "intimate smell" solutions, shaving legs and a huge chunk of beauty industry, or diamond trade.


----------



## Road_UK

This thread is becoming unreadable. 

1: This is still "the Netherlands Railway thread", right?
2: Why not use English properly, instead of trying to use all these expensive words. Half of you don't know what they mean anyway, and hardly anyone talks like that in England...


----------



## Attus

It's nice that you can read about British railways in Dutch thread, Belgian railways in the Swiss one...


----------



## Sunfuns

Road_UK said:


> This thread is becoming unreadable.
> 
> 1: This is still "the Netherlands Railway thread", right?
> 2: Why not use English properly, instead of trying to use all these expensive words. Half of you don't know what they mean anyway, and hardly anyone talks like that in England...


We are not English and not pretending to be. I bet English people talk similar to this then discussing university level economics.

I was not aware of all terms either, but maybe some day we talk about physics and chemistry so I have an advantage :lol:


----------



## Road_UK

I bet the authors of these posts don't even know what they mean. But because it sounds posh they use them anyway, resulting in sentences written in broken English with all these Cambridge/Oxford terms thrown in...


----------



## radamfi

This post from RailUK forums says someone tried to a FIP priv ticket in Amsterdam (cheap or free ticket for rail staff or retired rail staff) but was unable to do so as they claimed they can't do it any more because the tickets are now on eenmalige chipkaarten

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1902240&postcount=70


----------



## Wilhem275

A VIRM 6+6 just passed by, in regular service  But only the first half was open for passengers.

It would be interesting to know what depots handle these materials.


----------



## AlexNL

VIRM is maintained at Onnen, but the NedTrain workshops in Maastricht and Leidschendam also do maintenance on some VIRM EMUs.


----------



## M-NL

Incredible. In the current concession NS has 2 hours to provide alternative transport in case of major disruptions. For the new concession this is going to be reduced to 1 hour. 
Even though that is a good thing, I can't help to note that in the old days, they had contracts with local bus companies to always have some busses and drivers standby. In most cases alternative transport was available within half an hour. But those contracts were deemed to expensive.
Also new in the new concession: get-home-warranty. Currently already common practice, but formalised in the new concession.


----------



## M-NL

radamfi said:


> This post from RailUK forums says someone tried to a FIP priv ticket in Amsterdam (cheap or free ticket for rail staff or retired rail staff) but was unable to do so as they claimed they can't do it any more because the tickets are now on eenmalige chipkaarten


All former (Dutch) rail staff I know have been issued personalised OV chip cards. Also all special tickets were exchanged for single use chip cards (I have travelled on a single use 'meereiskaartje' twice now).
This change however wasn't a smooth operation. Information letters were very unclear and despite the letter stating that they should go to a ticket counter for more information most of the ticket counter staff didn't have a clue.


----------



## Theijs

AlexNL said:


> VIRM is maintained at Onnen, but the NedTrain workshops in Maastricht and Leidschendam also do maintenance on some VIRM EMUs.


4th of October is Open Doors at NedTrain Leidschendam, due to 175 Railways in NL.


----------



## Alargule

Road_UK said:


> This thread is becoming unreadable.
> 
> 1: This is still "the Netherlands Railway thread", right?
> 2: Why not use English properly, instead of trying to use all these expensive words. Half of you don't know what they mean anyway, and hardly anyone talks like that in England...


Agreed. Maybe splitting the whole OV Chipkaart discussion into a different thread would be the best option here.


----------



## da_scotty

The timetable switch between one day and the next is at 4.00.


----------



## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> Why not say "tot mandaagochtend 6.30"?


Because the weekend fare period lasts only till 4AM monday. If you have the weekend vrij abbonement, for instance, it can be used until 4.00 only.


----------



## Wilhem275

My usual miscellaneous questions.

1) Night trains in the Randstad. NS says the trains call at Den Haag Centraal:
http://www.ns.nl/en/travellers/abou...in-at-night[2]/taking-the-train-at-night.html

The Journey Planner, as well as my infos, say this is not true...
But, apart from this, I can't tell from that poor map which lines are actually covered by the hourly everyday service, which only in w-e nights, and if and where to change...

2) This w-e Schiphol is off-limits due to maintenance works; are they building the new overpass at the Riekerpolder Aansluiting?

3) NS site says that Thalys are rerouted between Amstedam CS and Rotterdam; I didn't see any TGV here, but today there's a lot of extra traffic with the same materials of the Brussel IC.
So, are TGVs routed via Breukelen - Gouda, or people must change in Rotterdam to the ICs I see running here?
What is weird is that these extra ICs seem to be enter Den Haag HS on the track towards CS, not Leiden...

4) To use my anonymous OV-C on NS trains, all I need is €20 before departure and simple check in - check out, or there's more?


----------



## radamfi

You only need €16 to check in for NS trains. €20 is deducted on check in, so you have a balance of -€4 until you check out again.


----------



## Suburbanist

There was a massive theft of copper cables near Amsterdam Lelyllaan, apparently, which disrupted traffic in the region. Have they fixed everything already?


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> My usual miscellaneous questions.
> 
> 1) Night trains in the Randstad. NS says the trains call at Den Haag Centraal:
> http://www.ns.nl/en/travellers/abou...in-at-night[2]/taking-the-train-at-night.html
> 
> The Journey Planner, as well as my infos, say this is not true...
> But, apart from this, I can't tell from that poor map which lines are actually covered by the hourly everyday service, which only in w-e nights, and if and where to change...


The map is incorrect. Night trains don't call at Den Haag Centraal, they only call at Den Haag HS.

The routes in Brabant are only served at week-ends. On the page you linked to, this is hidden under the link 'Show additional text'. On this page it is shown by default.


> Night-time Nachtnet services in Brabant
> 
> On Friday and Saturday nights trains will run on the following routes:
> 
> Eindhoven - Tilburg - Breda - Dordrecht - Rotterdam
> Eindhoven - 's-Hertogenbosch - Utrecht, Utrecht Centraal continuing to 's-Hertogenbosch and Eindhoven
> 's-Hertogenbosch - Tilburg (shuttle)





> 2) This w-e Schiphol is off-limits due to maintenance works; are they building the new overpass at the Riekerpolder Aansluiting?


I'm not sure what they are doing this weekend, but it is related to the Schiphol - Duivendrecht doubling.



> 3) NS site says that Thalys are rerouted between Amstedam CS and Rotterdam; I didn't see any TGV here, but today there's a lot of extra traffic with the same materials of the Brussel IC.
> 
> So, are TGVs routed via Breukelen - Gouda, or people must change in Rotterdam to the ICs I see running here?
> What is weird is that these extra ICs seem to be enter Den Haag HS on the track towards CS, not Leiden...


When Thalys trains are diverted due to engineering works, they usually go over Gouda/Breukelen and not via Den Haag.

Due to engineering works between Lage Zwaluwe and Dordrecht, the Benelux ICs are limited to Brussels - Roosendaal this weekend.

This weekend, the Intercity Direct (which normally serves Breda - Amsterdam) has been rerouted to serve Breda - Den Haag Centraal instead. It does not serve Schiphol or Amsterdam Centraal.



> 4) To use my anonymous OV-C on NS trains, all I need is €20 before departure and simple check in - check out, or there's more?


That's mostly it. You have to go past a ticket machine once to indicate if you want to travel 1st or 2nd class.



Suburbanist said:


> There was a massive theft of copper cables near Amsterdam Lelyllaan, apparently, which disrupted traffic in the region. Have they fixed everything already?





Road_UK said:


> If it's not on the news then nobody knows. Unless they're involved themselves. Where were you at the time of the theft, Suburbanist?


Somewhere early friday morning there was a copper theft just north of Schiphol, indeed. The thieves appearantly cut through a 3 kV feeder cable, which short circuited and set things on fire.

It was impossible to run trains between Schiphol and Amsterdam Lelylaan and Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid, but the engineers were able to rebuild everything rather quickly. Around noon on Friday it was possible to start running trains again.

Given the extent of the damage this can be considered quite an achievement. Someone posted some pictures on Tweakers.net.


----------



## da_scotty

Wilhem275 said:


> My usual miscellaneous questions.
> 
> 1) Night trains in the Randstad. NS says the trains call at Den Haag Centraal:
> http://www.ns.nl/en/travellers/abou...in-at-night[2]/taking-the-train-at-night.html
> 
> The Journey Planner, as well as my infos, say this is not true...
> But, apart from this, I can't tell from that poor map which lines are actually covered by the hourly everyday service, which only in w-e nights, and if and where to change...


Rotterdam - Delft - Den Haag HS - Leiden - Schiphol - Amsterdam - Utrecht is every night hourly. But on sunday, monday and teusday night the service between Leiden/Schiphol/Amsterdam is partly replaced by a bus service.

The Utrecht-Eindhoven-Rotterdam (and intermediate) is on fridays and saturdays.

Utrecht-Rotterdam is on fridays and saturdays (two or three services)

Utrecht-Amersfoort is on fridays and saturdays (two or three services)

This NS(english) page does tell the correct info though: http://www.ns.nl/en/travellers/about-your-trip/travel-scenarios/taking-the-train-at-night%5B2%5D



> 2) This w-e Schiphol is off-limits due to maintenance works; are they building the new overpass at the Riekerpolder Aansluiting?


They are quadruppling the Schiphol - Amsterdam South section.



> 3) NS site says that Thalys are rerouted between Amstedam CS and Rotterdam; I didn't see any TGV here, but today there's a lot of extra traffic with the same materials of the Brussel IC.
> So, are TGVs routed via Breukelen - Gouda, or people must change in Rotterdam to the ICs I see running here?
> What is weird is that these extra ICs seem to be enter Den Haag HS on the track towards CS, not Leiden...


They are indeed routed via Breukelen - Gouda, but I would suppose that the intercity via Den Haag is quicker.


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> My usual miscellaneous questions.
> 
> 1) Night trains in the Randstad. NS says the trains call at Den Haag Centraal:
> http://www.ns.nl/en/travellers/abou...in-at-night[2]/taking-the-train-at-night.html
> 
> The Journey Planner, as well as my infos, say this is not true...
> But, apart from this, I can't tell from that poor map which lines are actually covered by the hourly everyday service, which only in w-e nights, and if and where to change...


Aahh NS and their terrible maps.

There's basically 1 night train service. It runs every night, once every hour on the following route, in both directions:

Rotterdam Centraal - Delft - Den Haag HS - Leiden Centraal - Schiphol - Amsterdam Centraal - Utrecht Centraal.

Notice that it does NOT make a circle: if you want to go from Utrecht to Rotterdam, you have to go via Amsterdam and The Hague. 

On weekend nights (Friday-Saturday and Saturday-Sunday), the route is extended at both ends. From Rotterdam, the trains continue to Dordrecht, Breda, Tilburg and Eindhoven. From Utrecht, the trains continue to 's-Hertogenbosch and Eindhoven.

Also: because of the construction works in Delft, the trains are sometimes rerouted via Gouda. NS typically service Rotterdam - Delft - The Hague with buses during those nights.



> 2) This w-e Schiphol is off-limits due to maintenance works; are they building the new overpass at the Riekerpolder Aansluiting?


Good question, I don't know...



> 3) NS site says that Thalys are rerouted between Amstedam CS and Rotterdam; I didn't see any TGV here, but today there's a lot of extra traffic with the same materials of the Brussel IC.
> So, are TGVs routed via Breukelen - Gouda, or people must change in Rotterdam to the ICs I see running here?
> What is weird is that these extra ICs seem to be enter Den Haag HS on the track towards CS, not Leiden...


The ICs to Brussels still terminate in The Hague I think. When the Thalys is rerouted, it typically does Rotterdam CS - Gouda - Breukelen. 



> 4) To use my anonymous OV-C on NS trains, all I need is €20 before departure and simple check in - check out, or there's more?


That's all.


----------



## MrAronymous

Wilhem275 said:


> My usual miscellaneous questions.
> 
> 4) To use my anonymous OV-C on NS trains, all I need is €20 before departure and simple check in - check out, or there's more?


You need to activate it at a machine before you use it. You then can select if you wish to travel first or second class. English info here. Animated video in Dutch here.


----------



## Road_UK

I don't get it. There were calls for a new thread about these matters, so I opened one, but nobody shows up...


----------



## radamfi

Does anywhere else in the world operate an hourly intercity service overnight, 7 days a week?


----------



## Momo1435

Wilhem275 said:


> 2) This w-e Schiphol is off-limits due to maintenance works; are they building the new overpass at the Riekerpolder Aansluiting?


Yes, that's exactly what they are doing.

http://www.prorail.nl/projecten/sch...rkzaamheden-spoorviaduct-a4johan-huizingalaan

And while there busy they are also working on more viaducts along the line.
http://www.prorail.nl/projecten/sch...endwerkzaamheden-spoorviaduct-amstelveenseweg


Plus track work at Duivendrecht station, the other end of the section of the line which will quadrupled.

http://www.prorail.nl/projecten/sch...weekendwerkzaamheden-bij-station-duivendrecht


----------



## 3737

The first V250 left the Netherlands today and make it's way back to Italy.


----------



## Slagathor

It's not _making its way_ so much as it's being desperately dragged.


----------



## Wilhem275

Walk of shame...


----------



## webeagle12

I"m amazed it didn't fall apart into pieces on the way there


----------



## Wilhem275

Don't worry, they'll be put into good use... I told you months ago, there's only one rail operator in this world that has the experience needed to make AB's crap work


----------



## Wilhem275




----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> Don't worry, they'll be put into good use... I told you months ago, there's only one rail operator in this world that has the experience needed to make AB's crap work


I read in some Forum (Ferrovie IT) that there Trenitalia might be interested on buying the V250 fleet to operate hybrid services (like Bari-Roma, Ancona-Roma, Torino-Venezia, Milano-Bari). I know there are some knowledgeable insiders on that forum, though I'm not sure whether this is an expected thing or not.


----------



## Wilhem275

I was expecting this since at least three years, and I'm not an insider...


----------



## AlexNL

Should that ever happen, then Italy can prepare for lots of visits from Dutch people who have never ridden on a V250 but still want to.

I was one of the passenger on board of the maiden run on July 29th 2012. Lucky me..


----------



## M-NL

Good luck to the Italian passengers. And first of all the safety systems must be changed and integrated into the train. That will probably be a challenge given that the integration of the original design wasn't all that great to start with.

Also another interesting point: Both the Netherlands and Belgium use high platforms, so I guess  the V250 was designed for 760mm platforms. In Italy they use 550mm platforms.


----------



## Slagathor

In Italy, _safety_ is just a word without meaning. Like _faith_ in the Netherlands.


----------



## Road_UK

Slagathor said:


> In Italy, safety is just a word without meaning. Like faith in the Netherlands.


May God have mercy on your soul.


----------



## Slagathor

Road_UK said:


> May God have mercy on your soul.


Neither one of those nouns describe something that actually exists. You may as well have posted "Hocus pocus!"


----------



## radamfi

One thing that is a bit surprising about the NS website is that the English section is relatively small. Compared to NMBS which translates almost every word into English. It is surprising because the Dutch speak English more than any other non-English speaking country. It is not a major issue these days I suppose now we have Google Translate. It is also relatively easy to learn sufficient Dutch vocabulary to understand the Dutch language site.


----------



## Turick

Slagathor said:


> In Italy, _safety_ is just a word without meaning.


Says who?


----------



## Road_UK

Slagathor just did. And he's right. That Distanza Di Securezza business is a myth in Italy.


----------



## Turick

No he is not. By saying that, he implied that in Italy there are no safety standards and effective controls, neither in the railway service and infrastructure nor in any other field. This is simply not true, therefore the "joke" doesn't work.

It is always silly to generalize. Driving in Italy may be challenging, especially for foreigners and especially in certain areas, but I would not use it as a proof.
I wouldn't say that in UK or in the Netherlands the word _hygiene_ has no meaning because they do not know what a bidet is.:nono:

Btw, it's "distanza di sicurezza" (and there are no random capital letters in Italian )


----------



## MrAronymous

radamfi said:


> One thing that is a bit surprising about the NS website is that the English section is relatively small. Compared to NMBS which translates almost every word into English. It is surprising because the Dutch speak English more than any other non-English speaking country. It is not a major issue these days I suppose now we have Google Translate. It is also relatively easy to learn sufficient Dutch vocabulary to understand the Dutch language site.


It's not at all surprising. It's because NMBS/SNCB has to put up with Belgium's language division. I mean even their official website now is 'belgianrail.be' .. in English because they probably couldn't settle on which acronym to use. So when they have to translate their whole website to the two other national languages, why not translate it to English as well while you're at it.

The NS website is just made in one language as their main market is Dutch speaking Dutch people. The NS English pages just feature the most critical information and gets rid of all the clutter most English speaking people (largely tourists) won't need.


----------



## Suburbanist

Actually, as a foreigner living in Netherlands, I get the impression that one unintended consequence of high English proficiency among Dutch work force is that it ends up being less pro-active in translating general written materials, probably because there had been always someone around to help (I read that efforts for large-scale language instruction began at primary and secondary schools as early as 1958).

This can be noticed in many instances, not only transportation but also other small things like language menus on credit card machines and informational boards on not-so-famous museums with guided tours (which will often have guides with passable English whereas in France or Italy that would not be the case and you'd be handed a translated folder to self-guide yourself alone, for instance).


----------



## M-NL

I get the impression that a lot of Dutch people aren't as highly English proficient as they think they are. There are several books about the gibberish the Dutch have uttered abroad.
This is however not just a Dutch problem, the large majority of people will never be as proficient in a foreign language as they are in their mother tongue. However being exposed to foreign languages from early age helps. Example: The Dutch use subtitling on television, whereas for instance the Germans use audio dubbing.

What's the big problem in all of this: In a foreign language, a lot of nuances will get lost because of umbiguous language. For instance in native English 'I like your idea!' often means the exact opposite. A non-native speaker would not understand this.

In technical projects it is these small nuances that cause problems. Any implied intention in text or speach could be lost in translation. I wonder how many projects have run into problems because of this.


----------



## Slagathor

Turick said:


> No he is not. By saying that, he implied that in Italy there are no safety standards and effective controls, neither in the railway service and infrastructure nor in any other field. This is simply not true, therefore the "joke" doesn't work.
> 
> It is always silly to generalize. Driving in Italy may be challenging, especially for foreigners and especially in certain areas, but I would not use it as a proof.
> I wouldn't say that in UK or in the Netherlands the word _hygiene_ has no meaning because they do not know what a bidet is.:nono:
> 
> Btw, it's "distanza di sicurezza" (and there are no random capital letters in Italian )


Relax, dude, it was a joke.


----------



## Wilhem275

That was trolling  But there's a part of truth in that 

Now excuse me, I have to go out and get killed by a moped speeding on a bike lane :troll:


Getting back to railways, does anyone have pics of the V250 with open doors? My guess is that it is compatible with 550 mm platforms, the entrance will just appear with one more step, as happens with many similar trains.
I think the whole train, even if designed for internal NL/B traffic, complies with TSI standards.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> Actually, as a foreigner living in Netherlands, I get the impression that one unintended consequence of high English proficiency among Dutch work force is that it ends up being less pro-active in translating general written materials, probably because there had been always someone around to help (I read that efforts for large-scale language instruction began at primary and secondary schools as early as 1958).
> 
> This can be noticed in many instances, not only transportation but also other small things like language menus on credit card machines and informational boards on not-so-famous museums with guided tours (which will often have guides with passable English whereas in France or Italy that would not be the case and you'd be handed a translated folder to self-guide yourself alone, for instance).


Italy I don't know about, but despite trying to find reasons for some people to bash the French, the French are in fact very helpful in providing information in several languages. This includes road matrix information, on signs, instructions, museums, public transport...


----------



## Turick

Slagathor said:


> Relax, dude, it was a joke.


I know. Sometimes a joke is not funny to everybody, though. 
It was the patronising connotation (also of the other response) that bothered me, but I don't want to make a fuss over that joke.

Amici come prima* :hug:



*Italian idiomatic expression for "no hard feelings", literally "[let's be] friends as [we were] before"


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> It's not at all surprising. It's because NMBS/SNCB has to put up with Belgium's language division. I mean even their official website now is 'belgianrail.be' .. in English because they probably couldn't settle on which acronym to use. So when they have to translate their whole website to the two other national languages, why not translate it to English as well while you're at it.


Another thing is that the Dutch (at least those in the business of designing things) seem to put more value in attractive design, often at the expense of content and function.
I've followed the evolution of both the NS and the NMBS's websites, and noticed how the NS was user slicker, better designed, but the site of the NMBS had more useable content. 
In the Netherlands architects build more to impress their peers than to please the people who actually end up living in their houses (the famous cube house in Rotterdam are a prime example), although that is now changing.
The same has happened with trains. Form trumps function. The koploper train sets and ICR cars may have an elegant profile, however that has been achieved at the expense of useable luggage racks...


----------



## Wilhem275

A thing I find user-disturbing in Dutch PT (not railways) is that vehicles must stop at the very end of the platform, while the platform itself is designed to suggest people should wait in the middle. So everyone has to go after the tram when it arrives, or has to stand in the rain because the shed is 20 meters apart...
Or maybe it's just an HTM thing?

This becomes ridiculous in Den Haag tram tunnel, because the platforms are somehow 3x longer than a tram (were they planning a metro there?), stairs are in the middle, and you have this enormous empty station with everyone sacked in the most remote corner of the platform, far from any access point... :nuts:

I mean, I understand the logic of behavioural uniformity but the practical application isn't the best...


----------



## Slagathor

Yes yes, I've been saying that for _years_.

It's especially annoying when you're running to catch the tram and you're approaching the platform from the rear. "Well, I guess I'm gonna have some extra running to do." and then you narrowly manage to hurl yourself at the backdoor of the tram just before it closes and frankly you would have been a lot less breathless and sweaty if Mr Lunatic up front didn't part-take in that ridiculous obsession of parking the nose of the tram past the front of the fvcking stop like he's lining up for a drag race whatareyoutryingtogivemeaheartattack... etc. etc. etc.


----------



## AlexNL

The idea behind the long platform in the Haagse Tramtunnel is that they are able to cope with multiple trams, should there be a calamity such as a fire in the tunnel. This way, vehicle that are already in the tunnels can continue to the next platform and park close to the previous vehicle. This makes evacuation easier as the people on board the vehicle are close to exits as opposed to a tunnel which may get dark and a smoke trap.

Why tram drivers to the same on the streets is something which I can't answer, maybe they're trained like that so that tram stops can be used for multiple vehicles at the same time if spaced close together (such as near The Hague Centraal).

In the Rotterdam subway and on railway lines they have signs that indicate where trains of a given length should stop. Look for the diamond shaped signs (NS: blue, Rotterdam: white) with a number on them. They mark where a train consisting of the indicated amount of carriages should stop. If the particular length is not shown drivers should pick the next one, so that a 7 carriage train would stop at a sign labelled '8'.


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> Most likely, NS's designers did not consider it attractive to give the entire door a different colour, so they opted for white arrows instead.


Their reasons are understandable, I just think this particular solution is prone to conflicts with the door opening interface (and it's not really performing its task, those things are tiny).

I notice this because I'm not used to buttons not on the door (are they used anywhere outside NL?). I think this design is today out of standard.
This is a problem particularly evident with the DDZ: large doors imply an even more distant button...










Not knowing it, I would NEVER go for that white dot in the middle of nothing.
It just seems natural to me to link the drawing of the arrow to the opening command: touch the arrow, the object while move in that direction, very basic communication.

(big doubt: do DDZ's large doors actually use an expulsion or sliding design? The smaller ones are expulsion doors, for sure.)



AlexNL said:


> About the placement of door opening buttons: I think this has to do with the mechanism that opens those doors: they open outwards, then sway sideways. It could be that it was not possible to get a reliable system (connections failing due to frequent movement), so they placed them besides the doors instead. The newer SLT rolling stock does have the buttons on the doors themselves, but those trains don't use that mechanism.


I was actually thinking about a much nobler reason  if door opening buttons are on the door, people outside will press them and stay there in the middle, while others must get out; if the buttons are on the side, people is automatically in the right place where to wait.
Seems a kind of trick compatible with the Dutch transport tradition 

I was also thinking about the maintenance aspect, but I believe there is a way to keep the system reliable also with expulsion doors.
GTL trams in Den Haag have, depending on the series, sliding or expulsion doors; some have modern buttons on the door, others old buttons on its side. I will pay attention if the two features are linked.


Random facts:
- I see a VIRM 6+6 almost everyday as a Amsterdam - Rotterdam IC, always the same couple together (pretty worn out paint job)
- I saw a test ride of the E186.004 here in Den Haag HS, it was coming from Rotterdam and was sent to the siding towards Voorburg
- I like those machines in the classic livery, but I have to admit they look like Lego trains :lol:


----------



## Wilhem275

Wilhem275 said:


> (big doubt: do DDZ's large doors actually use an expulsion or sliding design? The smaller ones are expulsion doors, for sure.)


Found it, they seem to be of the sliding type:









http://www.nicospilt.com/index_Treinstellen_Dubbeldekkers.htm


----------



## AlexNL

Thing is, Dutch people are used to how the doors work. The trains that are now DDZ trains have been on the network since the early nineties, so people know where the buttons are. Nearly all other Dutch rolling stock has the buttons besides the doors, so it's quite familiar.

For the people who are not familiar with the Dutch way of how doors work it will be a little bit unfamiliar at first, but there will probably be a Dutchie pressing the opening button anyway. 

I have the same when I'm abroad, especially with older subway rolling stock in Paris or Berlin I have to get used to how the little lever works.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think buttons should be replaced by proximity sensors.


----------



## Road_UK

Why. You always come with these statements, but you never say why.


----------



## AlexNL

The V250 had proximity sensors for the interior doors, but they were no success. In most cases, you had to hold your hand in front of the sensor before it noticed somebody wanted to go through the door.

By tweaking the range of the sensor it would've been possible to get it to work better, but this would lead to more false openings as well. Imagine someone sitting next to the door, reaching down to his bag to fetch something. When sitting upright again, the door would open because the sensor noticed some movement...

While technology can be benificial and proximity sensors certainly have added value (such as for automatic doors in supermarkets), it does not always work as intended.


----------



## 3737

Surel said:


> No steam locos available, or wouldn't they be allowed on the track?


The railway museum in Utrecht doesn't have active steam locomotives any more. 25 years ago they had a steam locomotive parade.


----------



## Wilhem275

Hey, look who just passed by...


----------



## Road_UK

I know. Absolutley disgusting, that car on the cycle path...


----------



## Wilhem275

Don't make me talk about the usage of bike paths, I've seen things...

Anyway, I think that color is hideous


----------



## XAN_

Road_UK said:


> I know. Absolutley disgusting, that car on the cycle path...


It isn't parked, it's actually leaving the gas station.


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> Don't make me talk about the usage of bike paths, I've seen things...
> 
> Anyway, I think that color is hideous


It's still better than the hiiiideous yellow+blue livery.


----------



## MrAronymous

Wilhem275 said:


> Don't make me talk about the usage of bike paths, I've seen things...
> 
> Anyway, I think that color is hideous





Slagathor said:


> It's still better than the hiiiideous yellow+blue livery.


Plot twist: the train's colours are only yellow and blue.


----------



## Wilhem275

I knew that  but still the effect leads to one of my less favourite shade of green.


----------



## Slagathor

MrAronymous said:


> Plot twist: the train's colours are only yellow and blue.





Wilhem275 said:


> I knew that  but still the effect leads to one of my less favourite shade of green.


Oh, I thought the yellow and blue merged together to form a green carriage.


----------



## radamfi

XAN_ said:


> It isn't parked, it's actually leaving the gas station.


Off topic, but do the Dutch usually translate tankstation into English as 'gas station' (like Americans) or 'petrol station' (like the British)?


----------



## Road_UK

Gas station. Most Dutch people think they're Americans...


----------



## da_scotty

hmmm wouldn't surprise me if someone said: Benzine Station... 

I would say Petrol Station though, but that's because of 2 yrs. of Scottish education.


----------



## Slagathor

radamfi said:


> Off topic, but do the Dutch usually translate tankstation into English as 'gas station' (like Americans) or 'petrol station' (like the British)?


Our education system tries to teach everyone British English but American culture is so dominant that, in practice, people typically employ some kind of bizarre hybrid version of English. There is usually a hint of British to the Dutch accent (people often use the British pronunciation of _can't_, for example), but vocabulary tends to be heavily influenced by American TV and films. 

So when in doubt, it's safe to assume the Dutch use the American term. In this case: gas station.


----------



## Wilhem275

This weekend the whole stretch Schiedam Centrum - Den Haag HS is closed to traffic for major works.

Many buses where gathered this morning near HS, I guess they were linked to the replacement services.

At the moment they are working on the switches between HS and Moerwijk, I think they are repositioning or replacing them.

This was the "office" outside HS, this morning at 2 am... lots of coffee and track plans


----------



## Wilhem275

Different story: next Sunday (04/10) there will be the Open Day of NedTrain Leidschendam.

http://www.nedtrain.nl/metaNavigatie/actueel/evenementen/show/open-dag-nedtrain-leidschendam
As far as I understand, a registration is not needed.

The nearest OV stop is Leidschendam Voorburg (Den Haag trams 3 and 4 & Rotterdam Metro E).
https://maps.google.nl/maps/myplaces?ll=52.076473,4.383427&spn=0.004847,0.011362&ctz=-120&t=k&z=17

I'd like to go, and it could be a good moment to meet with you fellow forumers  If anyone is interested, please PM me.


----------



## Road_UK

How is your Dutch these days? You should visit this section. You can also post in English I suppose, and start interacting with locals who share your interests...


----------



## Wilhem275

I'm still far from being able to compose full sentences :lol: but if they accept some posts in English, it's probably better to move there.


----------



## Road_UK

I am sure they will


----------



## radamfi

How much do Dutch train drivers earn? Does it vary by operator? What about conductors? What about metro, tram or bus drivers?


----------



## Kirov88

radamfi said:


> How much do Dutch train drivers earn? Does it vary by operator? What about conductors? What about metro, tram or bus drivers?


Driver € 2,400 to 3,000

Conductor € 2,000 to 2,500

Bus driver € 1,660 to 2,800

These numbers are highly inaccurate though and is the base salary per month.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I'm assuming these are "netto" values right?


----------



## Kirov88

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I'm assuming these are "netto" values right?


Nope, but you need to add 35 - 50% for the real cost of labour. Which includes holiday money, compensations for whatever, employers share of pension, collective insurances, social security and stuff like that.

For example, if your gross base income is 2,500, you will cost about 3,500 a month. Your net income would be around 1,900 excluding tax deductions and compensations for travel, irregular hours and stuff like that. Also, once a year you get holiday money which is 8% minimum of your yearly gross salary so in this case, € 2,400 before tax.


----------



## radamfi

Kirov88 said:


> Driver € 2,400 to 3,000
> 
> Conductor € 2,000 to 2,500
> 
> Bus driver € 1,660 to 2,800
> 
> These numbers are highly inaccurate though and is the base salary per month.


It is interesting to see that these figures are quite similar. In the UK, bus drivers mostly get very low pay, not much more than half of what is mentioned here. People mostly only do bus driving if they can't find another job and staff turnover is very high.

On the railways, it is very different, and British train drivers can earn much more than €3000 a month gross. It is now a middle class occupation and some people with university degrees have left their old jobs to do train driving.


----------



## Suburbanist

There will be much rail traffic disruption, including 6 consecutive days without any traffic, on the Breda-Tilburg-'s-Hertogenbosch/Eindhoven lines.

There are going to do some major works at Tilburg railway station, including a new passageway and other stuff that ultimately will make the station fully accessible from both sides, as the train workshops and engine house were dismantled couple years ago.


----------



## Road_UK

Source?


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> Source?


http://www.prorail.nl/projecten/station-tilburg

and

http://www.ns.nl/reizigers/reisinformatie/informatie/actualiteiten/werkzaamheden-tilburg.html


----------



## Theijs

1st thing spotted at Nedtrain: treindrop https://mobile.twitter.com/TvW76/status/518371672374906880/photo/1


----------



## Suburbanist

Theijs said:


> 1st thing spotted at Nedtrain: treindrop https://mobile.twitter.com/TvW76/status/518371672374906880/photo/1


This is hte pic


----------



## JB1981

Suburbanist said:


> There will be much rail traffic disruption, including 6 consecutive days without any traffic, on the Breda-Tilburg-'s-Hertogenbosch/Eindhoven lines. There are going to do some major works at Tilburg railway station


And replacement of a couple of miles of overhead wires between Breda and Gilze-Rijen.


----------



## Bartje

*Vechtdallijnen*

In the Netherlands there are a few regional railway lines, which are succesfull. One of them is the Vechtdallijnen (lines along the river Vecht in Overijssel and Drenthe). the Vechtdallijnen connect Zwolle with Emmen and Almelo with Mariënberg. In Mariënberg there's an interchange. The provinces of Overijssel and Drenthe and the Region Twente are responsibel for the exploitation of these railway lines. After a tender Arriva won the right to exploit the Vechtdallijnen. But the provinces and region are responsibel for passenger revenges and all the risks.

_Een van de succesvolste regionale lijnen van Nederland: De Vechtdallijnen. Hoge klantwaardering, reizigersgroei en een betere punctualiteit (ondanks de invoering van een kwartierdienst)._

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMEkmBqz7DQ&feature=player_embedded









Stadler GTW-E III









De opdrachtgevers / provinces and region









Eerste klas / First class

















Tweede klas / Second class









Stiltecoupe en werkcoupe (2de klas) met stopcontacten!
Slince area and working area (second class)









Servicebalie / service desk









Incheckpalen op station Zwolle
Signing at Zwolle station









Vechtdalbord i.p.v. de vishaak van NS (station Mariënberg)
Signing at Marienberg station


----------



## Kirov88

I'm very glad that the exploitation of these lines went to a private company. Traveled with them once or twice on these lines and I'm almost willing to travel with public transport again. Only the rails need to be straighten out but I believe that that's being done now.


----------



## DingeZ

Bartje said:


> After a tender Arriva won the right to exploit the Vechtdallijnen. But the provinces and region are responsibel for passenger revenges and all the risks.


I'm pretty sure the underlined part is much more responsible for this succes than the other part.


----------



## AlexNL

Of course, the responsibility and direct involvement of the governments with the train services make a huge difference. In the old situation, NS controlled everything from Utrecht and it was almost impossible for a local government to have any say in the services that they would get, nor for the rolling stock. NS operated the 'Emmerlijn' with Mat '64, train sets from the 1960's and 1970's.

What Arriva brought to the table was a better deal: for less money they can run more services. NS simply can't do this because of the way the company works internally, from a political point of view. The unions are still quite powerful within the flag carrier, something which is much less the case within Arriva.


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> What Arriva brought to the table was a better deal: for less money they can run more services. NS simply can't do this because of the way the company works internally, from a political point of view. The unions are still quite powerful within the flag carrier, something which is much less the case within Arriva.


Is this just a matter of lower wages or more organization flexibility in terms of hours, schedules, less overhead etc?


----------



## AlexNL

It's both.


----------



## Glodenox

I'm quite surprised that the NS unions aren't going on strike for this? I know that should a system like this be set up in Belgium, there'd be unions on the tracks blocking the trains for at least a week.

Though I presume that a union can be called to court in the Netherlands?


----------



## AlexNL

As far as I know unions can indeed be held accountable in court. Furthermore, if there would have been no decentralisation those railway lines would have probably been closed by now as they are not interesting to NS.


----------



## Wilhem275

There are several similar successful cases in Europe. Some see it as a loss of workers' rights, other as a way to rebalance excess political protections gained through the monopoly (I stick with the latter).

Little note about OV-Chipkaart: when changing to some operators (HTM>RET, HTM>Veolia) the machine will say "Overstap OK" and then show a €4,00 billing. This led me to think that they made me pay the full fare (as if I didn't check out earlier) since when changing HTM>HTM it will not write that; but no, they just show the check in billing, it's not an actual transfer. Quite confusing, though...

This Sunday I was at ESA-ESTEC Open Day in Noordwijk, and on the way back I saw several Arriva buses (to Leiden) letting down everyone for more than one hour, because they were already full. They didn't even try to get people on board, just skipped away in front of them. Even if they were just two persons (and we could have accomodated them without major problems).
I understand they want to respect regulations on number of passengers, but I think Arriva completely failed... an operator should always know if there are big events in its area.

What I find completely wrong is the fact that their failure was completely paid by people stranded. Don't operators hold any responsibility about the guarantee of service?


----------



## Slagathor

The responsibility is that passengers who paid a fare should be moving to where they need to be. Those people waiting weren't paying passengers yet.

This is the same rule NS uses as an excuse to transport you on your feet over hundreds of kilometers: "Your ticket buys transportation, not a seat." I've literally received that sentence in an e-mail reply after I complained once.


----------



## Kirov88

Glodenox said:


> I'm quite surprised that the NS unions aren't going on strike for this? I know that should a system like this be set up in Belgium, there'd be unions on the tracks blocking the trains for at least a week.
> 
> Though I presume that a union can be called to court in the Netherlands?


NS didn't even participate in the tender, why is this relevant? And the union(s) have members from every company.


----------



## da_scotty

Slagathor said:


> The responsibility is that passengers who paid a fare should be moving to where they need to be. Those people waiting weren't paying passengers yet.
> 
> This is the same rule NS uses as an excuse to transport you on your feet over hundreds of kilometers: "Your ticket buys transportation, not a seat." I've literally received that sentence in an e-mail reply after I complained once.


hundreds of kilometers.... the Netherlands aint that big...:nuts::lol:


----------



## Slagathor

Well, they would if they could.


----------



## da_scotty

It's only during rush hour that you have to stand. In other countries you wouldn't blink at standing, as a 50km sub-urban line wouldn't be weird. 
In the Netherlands 50km is reagarded as long distance/intercity travel, it's just a mather of scope.


----------



## verfmeer

Wilhem275 said:


> There are several similar successful cases in Europe. Some see it as a loss of workers' rights, other as a way to rebalance excess political protections gained through the monopoly (I stick with the latter).
> 
> Little note about OV-Chipkaart: when changing to some operators (HTM>RET, HTM>Veolia) the machine will say "Overstap OK" and then show a €4,00 billing. This led me to think that they made me pay the full fare (as if I didn't check out earlier) since when changing HTM>HTM it will not write that; but no, they just show the check in billing, it's not an actual transfer. Quite confusing, though...
> 
> This Sunday I was at ESA-ESTEC Open Day in Noordwijk, and on the way back I saw several Arriva buses (to Leiden) letting down everyone for more than one hour, because they were already full. They didn't even try to get people on board, just skipped away in front of them. Even if they were just two persons (and we could have accomodated them without major problems).
> I understand they want to respect regulations on number of passengers, but I think Arriva completely failed... an operator should always know if there are big events in its area.
> 
> What I find completely wrong is the fact that their failure was completely paid by people stranded. Don't operators hold any responsibility about the guarantee of service?


The operators have delivered what they promised, all the scheduled busses have been in service. If there is extra demand due to an event, no extra busses have to go in service.
I don't think that operators can be held responsible for event related demand, because I can organize an event which could overflow the busline. One bus can carry around 80 people, less then 3 school classes. So if I take 3 classes to the museum by bus, people must wait for the next bus. The bus operator can't know about my plans. Only if there is a structural rise in demand extra busses can be demanded.


----------



## Suburbanist

Will more lines be put to tender to concessionaires, like Kempen-Zwolle, and maybe Emmen-Zwolle?


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> Little note about OV-Chipkaart: when changing to some operators (HTM>RET, HTM>Veolia) the machine will say "Overstap OK" and then show a €4,00 billing. This led me to think that they made me pay the full fare (as if I didn't check out earlier) since when changing HTM>HTM it will not write that; but no, they just show the check in billing, it's not an actual transfer. Quite confusing, though...


OV-chipkaart messages can be quite confusing from time to time, indeed. Once upon a time, when the project started, all operators had similar equipment which showed similar messages. Over time, more operators onboarded onto the OV-chipkaart system, often forced by the transport authorities and Dutch laws. As more companies onboarded, they brought their own hardware with them which was different from what was already being used elsewhere. Take a look at these lists to see what I mean.

Personally, I don't think it's relevant to show to a passenger that the system withheld € 4,00 from the balance when checking in as the remaining funds will be refunded at the end of the journey. 

Showing "You have checked in, welcome aboard!" should be enough when entering the vehicle. Upon leaving, a message like "Your journey cost € 1,39, your remaining balance is € 13,37. Goodbye!" would be adequate.



> This Sunday I was at ESA-ESTEC Open Day in Noordwijk, and on the way back I saw several Arriva buses (to Leiden) letting down everyone for more than one hour, because they were already full. They didn't even try to get people on board, just skipped away in front of them. Even if they were just two persons (and we could have accomodated them without major problems).
> I understand they want to respect regulations on number of passengers, but I think Arriva completely failed... an operator should always know if there are big events in its area.


You are right... if the buses are allowed to go faster than 80 km/h, Dutch regulations forbid passengers standing in the bus. 


> What I find completely wrong is the fact that their failure was completely paid by people stranded. Don't operators hold any responsibility about the guarantee of service?


Bus services are paid for by two parties:
1- Local/regional governments that pay a subsidy to the operator to compensate for losses
2- Passengers on board of the bus

People waiting at a bus stop have not yet paid for their journey, they do so when checking in and out with their OV-chipkaart.

In the case of an event, the event organizer has to contact the public transport authority to tell them about the event that is to take place. What the transport authority needs to know is when the event will be (morning, evening, multi day, ...), how big the event will be and how many people are expected to take public transport.

Some events are very public transport oriented, think of large festivals. In that case, an operator will need to schedule extra buses (possibly even getting them from other areas in the country) and plan for extra bus drivers. These need to be available throughout the day as festival goers do not always leave at the same time.

For other events such as a football match, there is a peak load shortly after the match during which the operator will require lots of buses, but only for two or three trips between the stadium and, for example, city centre and the railway station.

Then lastly there are smaller events. The reveal of a new sculture in the garden of the Kröller-Möller museum may be a big thing for the museum, but it will attract only little extra people. Most of them will probably come by car anyway, so there won't be a real reason to run extra buses. Should it really be necessary (for example, because the museum has struck a deal with NS to give free train travel on the day of the reveal) then even a few extra buses in the few hours before will suffice.

All in all, it's down to the event organizer to supply the right information.


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> Will more lines be put to tender to concessionaires, like Kempen-Zwolle, and maybe Emmen-Zwolle?


Emmen - Zwolle has already been put out to tender, it's the Vechtdallijnen nowadays.

Zwolle - Kampen (over the diesel line, not the new Hanzelijn) will be put out to tender when electrification is complete. This will be put out to tender alongside Enschede - Almelo - Zwolle, which will also be fully electrified.


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> Emmen - Zwolle has already been put out to tender, it's the Vechtdallijnen nowadays.
> 
> Zwolle - Kampen (over the diesel line, not the new Hanzelijn) will be put out to tender when electrification is complete. This will be put out to tender alongside Enschede - Almelo - Zwolle, which will also be fully electrified.


Sorry, I meant Enschede-Zwolle, not Emmen-Zwolle.

Who's operating services between Marienberg and Hengelo these days?


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> Who's operating services between Marienberg and Hengelo these days?


Mariënberg - Almelo is operated by Arriva as part of the Vechtdallijnen concession. If you want to continue to Hengelo you'll have to change onto an NS operated train at Almelo.


----------



## Glodenox

Kirov88 said:


> NS didn't even participate in the tender, why is this relevant? And the union(s) have members from every company.


My question isn't specific to this tender really. My main question was the legal status of a union in the Netherlands, which has now been clarified by AlexNL (thanks for that, by the way!).
It only just dawned on me that the unions in the Netherlands didn't really protest against the whole tendering system, which seems odd to me as I'm used to the "trigger-happy" rail unions in Belgium.

But anyway, there's no need to continue about this subject in here. There are plenty of more interesting things to talk about


----------



## AlexNL

Dutch unions are less trigger-happy than their Belgian or French counter parts. The Dutch approach, the "poldermodel", is to have discussions and come to terms that are reasonably agreeable for all parties involved. The amount of strikes in the Netherlands is quite low, overall.

There has been plenty of protest from the unions against liberalisation, don't be mistaken about that. The unions have been up in arms about the seperation between NS and ProRail and regularely hint at a re-unification, even suggesting forms that are not legally possible (one unified company). The unions have sort-of accepted the as-is situation as they realize that they're not in the position to change it. However, when something goes wrong on a privately owned line they use this for their own benefit to the fullest.

For example, when Veolia just started operating the railway lines in Limburg the amount of SPADs* increased slightly. The unions said that "the liberalisation made the railways unsafe and that we fear the moment when an accident happens". Veolia acted swiftly on this and the amount of SPADs was reduced dramatically (below the country average), but the unions kept quiet about this.


* Signal passed at danger


----------



## DingeZ

AlexNL said:


> As far as I know unions can indeed be held accountable in court. Furthermore, if there would have been no decentralisation those railway lines would have probably been closed by now as they are not interesting to NS.


A common misconception. NS (almost, I'm not aware of cases more than 50 years ago) never does intend to close down a single line. It was the government that asked the NS to bring a list with least profitable lines so they could shut one down if they would want to pay less. A few decades ago the government wanted to close many of the Northern lines, but the NS didn't.


----------



## AlexNL

You are absolutely right, NS was not planning to give up on those railway lines. They tried various things to keep the trains running by looking for ways to reduce operating costs on those lines as much as they possibly could. For example, the "Wadloper" rolling stock (DH1/DH2) was designed for one-man operation, frequencies were quite low (1 tph) and the staff could perform multiple jobs.

However, that was before the "verzelfstandiging" of NS. If the private operators would have never entered the market, I think that most of the rural railway lines that are now run by Arriva and the likes would have been closed and replaced by buses.


----------



## Suburbanist

What was the last line closure for regular passenger service? The line to IJmuiden? KErkrade-Schin op Geul?


----------



## Slagathor

AlexNL said:


> There is no minimum speed requirement for Dutch roads or highways. However, if you are blocking traffic due to an excessively low speed you can be fined by the authorities.


I've always been a bit confused about that. I was taught at school that a vehicle should be capable of going at least 70km/h or it's not allowed on a motorway. 

On the other hand, I heard there is no such thing as an official minimum speed because that would make traffic jams illegal. 

Surely there are _some_ legal requirements for a motorway? You can't go on there with a tractor, for example.


----------



## radamfi

Slagathor said:


> Surely there are _some_ legal requirements for a motorway? You can't go on there with a tractor, for example.


The Netherlands highway code is available online, even in English:

http://www.rijkswaterstaat.nl/image...ulations in the Netherlands_tcm174-337519.pdf



> 2.16
> Motorways and main highways
> 
> Article 42
> 
> 1 Motorways may only be used by drivers, whose
> vehicles are capable of being driven at speeds
> greater than 60 km/h.
> 
> 2 Main highways may only be used by drivers, whose
> vehicles are capable of being driven at speeds
> greater than 50 km/h.


----------



## da_scotty

^^
So as long as your car can drive 60+, you can drive slower then 60 as long as you don't hinder traffic.... We Dutch are are a weird lot.


----------



## radamfi

Does the Netherlands even have a minimum speed road sign? In other European countries it is a round blue sign with the minimum speed in white, like on page 2 here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/312234/the-highway-code-traffic-signs.pdf

The list of roadsigns in the link in my previous post doesn't include that sign. In the UK they are rare, but they sometimes appear on entrances to long tunnels.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Zuidtangent should be converted into a light rail line.


I think you should buy a helicopter.


----------



## radamfi

As I understand it, Zuidtangent was built to enable it to be converted to tram at a later date if buses get too crowded. Is the bus service close to capacity yet? Obviously we have a precedent for this, with the busiest bus route in Utrecht being converted to tram at the moment, but that route was extremely busy with even bi-articulated buses being crowded despite running every few minutes.

But if Zuidtangent is converted to tram, what would you do about the motorway section?

The recently opened Edinburgh tramway was originally a guided busway.

Paris are currently going through a massive tram line building programme, but they are also building busways for lower demand corridors.


----------



## da_scotty

^^
On the other hand, it is prepared for conversion to lightrail. It isn't all crazy!


----------



## Suburbanist

The sector where Zuidtangent buses use the highway is not that long and, more importantly, it has space for a segregated light-rail to be built nearby without much hassle.

Between Amstelveen and Amsterdam Arena they can get away building light rail over the local roads and, mostly, the bus lanes/busways already in place.


----------



## Road_UK

Of course nobody has mentioned Haarlem city centre :nuts:


----------



## da_scotty

The dedicated track of zuidtangent (as I said) is prepared for conversion to lightrail/trams.


----------



## radamfi

Road_UK said:


> Of course nobody has mentioned Haarlem city centre :nuts:


According to Wikipedia, some people were proposing a tunnel from Haarlem NS to start of the busway. There is also the small matter of the 310 to Nieuw-Vennep and also the extension to Uithoorn.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuidtangent_(Noord-Holland)


----------



## Road_UK

Are they really that desperate to move people from the bus onto a train or tram?


----------



## verfmeer

radamfi said:


> Does the Netherlands even have a minimum speed road sign? In other European countries it is a round blue sign with the minimum speed in white, like on page 2 here:
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/312234/the-highway-code-traffic-signs.pdf
> 
> The list of roadsigns in the link in my previous post doesn't include that sign. In the UK they are rare, but they sometimes appear on entrances to long tunnels.


How are they coping with traffic jams on those roads? That would be forbidden.
In the Netherlands there is no minimum speed limit, but if you are driving very slow (60 km/h on 130 roads) you could be fined for breaking article 5:



> *[FONT=RijksoverheidSerif-Bold
> Bold[/FONT]* It is an offence for any road user to act in such manner​ as to cause a hazard (or a potential hazard) on the public​highway or to obstruct other road users in any way.


----------



## verfmeer

Road_UK said:


> Are they really that desperate to move people from the bus onto a train or tram?


Five years ago, some people felt like the Haarlem city centre was overflowing with busses, so they wanted them out of the streets. Therefore a tunnel has been investigated, but it turned out to be too expensive.

At the moment, the biggest problem is the high demand for the busses. Bus drivers are quite expensive, so it is cheaper to carry people in 1 tram in stead of 3 busses. For that reason, the province is looking for ways to increase the passenger capacity without increasing the amount of drivers needed. Trams could do that, but at the moment they are looking at 25 meter long bi-articulated busses.


----------



## radamfi

verfmeer said:


> How are they coping with traffic jams on those roads? That would be forbidden.
> In the Netherlands there is no minimum speed limit, but if you are driving very slow (60 km/h on 130 roads) you could be fined for breaking article 5:


Here's probably one of the most widely seen minimum speed signs in the UK, given that it is on the A282 (informally considered by most drivers as part of the M25, London's ring road). The minimum is just 10 mph, and I can't really see what the point of it is.

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.45...bk4-ywH-E7FjSYu2OqCg&cbp=12,11.87,,1,1.6&z=14

The link below suggests that whilst there is no specific offence of driving too slow in the UK, you could be fined for other reasons:

http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/minimum-speed-limits-driving-too-slow.html

It does say that other countries have a more robust enforcement of minimum speeds.


----------



## da_scotty

We do have a road thread you know?


----------



## Road_UK

They're probably dealing with railway infrastructure issues over there right now...


----------



## DingeZ

radamfi said:


> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/T100-bus
> 
> says
> 
> "Voor deze afwijkende maximumsnelheid gelden een aantal voorwaarden zoals: geen staanplaatsen, autogordels op alle zitplaatsen, snelheid begrensd op 100 km/h. Het openbaar vervoer voldoet niet altijd aan deze voorwaarden."
> 
> "For these exceptional speed limits a number of conditions apply: no standing, seat belts at all seats, speed limited at 100 km/h. The public transport does not always satisfy these conditions."
> 
> The 300 doesn't have seat belts and does have standing so it sounds like 80 km/h should be the limit. Although maybe "Het openbaar vervoer voldoet niet altijd aan deze voorwaarden" means they can get around this rule on the 300? I usually sit near the driver on the 300 so I can see the speedometer and I'm sure the speed was nearer 100 than 80 on the motorway. I'll have to check next time I'm on it. Do buses other than T100 buses have speed limiters set at 80 km/h? I remember in the old days a red light would appear on the speedometer if the bus driver was speeding.


Officially it is 80km/h, but last night I had a driver who definitely went faster. Probably because he was frustrated of the jam due to two lanes being closed at a small section of the A9.


----------



## radamfi

Has the rollout of credit card acceptance at railway stations been completed now?


----------



## radamfi

radamfi said:


> Has the rollout of credit card acceptance at railway stations been completed now?


http://www.ns.nl/reizigers/producten/waar-te-koop/ns-kaartautomaat.html

Apparently since 30 September. It was mentioned earlier that GVB and RET machines also accept Visa/Mastercard, with the advantage of no 0.50 euro fee, so that's ideal for foreigners wanting to top-up their OV-Chipkaarten. What about machines run by other operators, such as Arriva, Veolia etc.?


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> As it currently stands, there will be more trains between Amsterdam and Eindhoven, bringing the total up to 6 tph. Two of them will continue to Venlo.


4tph via Utrecht + 2tph via Rotterdam/Breda (HSL)?


----------



## da_scotty

No I suppose:

Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Venlo
The Hague-Rotterdam-_HSL_-Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven (Formarly IC The Hague-Venlo)
Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Heerlen
Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Maastricht


----------



## AlexNL

da_scotty said:


> No I suppose:
> 
> Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Venlo
> The Hague-Rotterdam-_HSL_-Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven (Formarly IC The Hague-Venlo)
> Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Heerlen
> Amsterdam-Eindhoven-Maastricht


Correct.


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> Correct.


But currently there are 

2tph to Venlo 
2tph to Maastricht
2tph to Heelren

If you add to that trains that will go just till Eindhoven, then which of the others will stop being a place with 2tph? Will they restart splitting trains to Limburg again in Sittard?


----------



## verfmeer

No, currently the trains from Amsterdam all go to Sittard, where 2tph go to Heerlen and 2tph go to Maastricht. In the future 2 extra trains per hour from Amsterdam will be added, which will be directed to Venlo. Because 4 tph is to much for Venlo, the Den Haag-Venlo train will be shortened to Eindhoven. So no splitting in Sittard is needed.


----------



## AlexNL

The current rolling stock on the IC Den Haag - Venlo is a mixture of ICM (Koploper), DDZ and ICR (coaches). Given the plan to re-route that IC over the high speed line, only the ICRm coaches can be used as they can be hauled by a Traxx locomotive. The ICRm coaches are needed for all services that operate over the HSL (Amsterdam - Breda and Amsterdam - Rotterdam), and also for international services to Brussels.

There are not enough ICRm coaches available to keep the IC from The Hague running to Venlo, so it will be shortened to Eindhoven. There are relatively few passengers coming from either The Hague or Venlo that travel further than Eindhoven on the same train, so I think a split is justifiable. 

Passengers from Venlo get direct trains to Den Bosch and Utrecht in return, so they're not really losing out on 'connections to big cities' (as some politicians like to say when their town loses a IC), they're just being connected to different cities.


----------



## samsam538

Will the trains between Eindhoven and Sittard be on a 20/10 interval?


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## Suburbanist

So the new configuration of ICs calling in Eindhoven will be during daytime weekdays:

2tph Den Haag - Eindhoven via HSL and vv.
2tph Amsterrdam - Venlo via Utrecht and vv.
2tph Amsterdam - Maastricht and vv.
2tph Amsterdam - Heerlen and vv.

totaling 16 ICs calling in Eindhoven per hour.


PS: They could extend Amsterdam-Breda trains to Tilburg. 

Is that correct?


----------



## AlexNL

Extending the Amsterdam - Breda service to Tilburg will require at least 1 additional rake of coaches and a locomotive, I don't know if those are available. 

It looks like there are plans to intensify Breda - Tilburg connections to 6 ICs per hour + 4 sprinter trains. What I am most worried about is level crossings between these cities. With 10 trains per hour per direction, those crossings will see a significant amount in closure time.


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## Wilhem275

Is it so needed to get the IC-D to Tilburg? Faster connection to Schiphol, maybe, but not that faster to Amsterdam... (and not counting the new A'dam - Eindhoven ICs).

Why can't I find the Amsterdam - Breda anywhere in the Reisplanner? The site says they are selling it, then no timetable...


Anyway, if I'm getting it correctlythe Amsterdam - Breda and Den Haag - Brussel will share a similar fleet, able to use the HSL; maybe not the same batch of ICm coaches (internal vs. Benelux setup?).

Is this going to happen just as soon as the 186s will be ready?

Any plans to get new 200+ km/h stock (like ICx) for these services?

PS: since all this is linked to the new Amsterdam - Venlo IC, probably the culprit here is the rebuilding of Utrecht's trackplan. Horizon 2017?


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> Is it so needed to get the IC-D to Tilburg? Faster connection to Schiphol, maybe, but not that faster to Amsterdam... (and not counting the new A'dam - Eindhoven ICs).
> 
> Why can't I find the Amsterdam - Breda anywhere in the Reisplanner? The site says they are selling it, then no timetable...


NS considers the Amsterdam - Breda service a high speed train, which is not shown by default. When planning a journey, you'll have to make sure the "Toon hogesnelheidstreinen" / "Show high speed trains" checkbox is ticked.


> Anyway, if I'm getting it correctlythe Amsterdam - Breda and Den Haag - Brussel will share a similar fleet, able to use the HSL; maybe not the same batch of ICm coaches (internal vs. Benelux setup?).


You are right, they'll have the same ICRm coaches. The international fleet will be identical to the domestic coaches, altho I'm not sure about train length.


> Is this going to happen just as soon as the 186s will be ready?


And when enough ICRm rolling stock is available. Over the course of 2015 we will gradually start to see more Amsterdam - Rotterdam services, but the biggest change will likely happen with the december 2016 timetable change.


> Any plans to get new 200+ km/h stock (like ICx) for these services?


For domestic services: yes. NS has started a tender procedure to acquire new intercity rolling stock, dubbed the IC Next Generation (ICNG). The trains will have a top speed of 200 km/h.

For international services no new rolling stock is being ordered, but one of the possible options for ICNG is a Belgium capable version. (Another option is Germany!) 


> PS: since all this is linked to the new Amsterdam - Venlo IC, probably the culprit here is the rebuilding of Utrecht's trackplan. Horizon 2017?


The track plan at Utrecht might play a role, but it won't be a big one. If needed they could always start a new service Eindhoven - Venlo which gets extended to Amsterdam when infrastructure is ready.

The main culprit right now is rolling stock availability: the coaches need to undergo some technical changes before they can be used over the high speed line, and NS is overhauling the interior.. As we're talking about more than hundred coaches this takes time.


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## JB1981

Wilhem275 said:


> Is it so needed to get the IC-D to Tilburg?


Needed or not, I don't see this happening anytime soon. Tilburg station has little or no capacity for the ICd to wait, change the locomotive from one side to the other and go back to Amsterdam. Breda has plenty.


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## JB1981

AlexNL said:


> Extending the Amsterdam - Breda service to Tilburg will require at least 1 additional rake of coaches and a locomotive, I don't know if those are available.
> 
> It looks like there are plans to intensify Breda - Tilburg connections to 6 ICs per hour + 4 sprinter trains. What I am most worried about is level crossings between these cities. With 10 trains per hour per direction, those crossings will see a significant amount in closure time.


Ten trains per direction per hour. Wow, pretty ambitious.

I guess they will need to get rid of freight trains first to make this happen. And wait until Breda Centraal is finished or at least has more than 3,5 tracks available.


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## AlexNL

JB1981 said:


> Needed or not, I don't see this happening anytime soon. Tilburg station has little or no capacity for the ICd to wait, change the locomotive from one side to the other and go back to Amsterdam. Breda has plenty.


In Tilburg a new platform is currently under construction, this will bring some more space. That doesn't mean that the ICd will continue to Tilburg tho, given rolling stock requirements.



JB1981 said:


> Ten trains per direction per hour. Wow, pretty ambitious.


There are bits of the Programma Hoogfrequent Spoor (PHS) where even more trains will run, 6 IC + 6 sprinter trains are planned.


> I guess they will need to get rid of freight trains first to make this happen. And wait until Breda Centraal is finished or at least has more than 3,5 tracks available.


Freight trains are encouraged to move to the dedicated Betuweroute freight line, this is mostly interesting for trains from the Rotterdam harbour towards Germany. Freight trains coming from Roosendaal and heading towards Venlo are most likely to keep using the Brabantroute as this is quicker. 

The situation in Breda is only temporary, I expect all platforms to be in service again within a year.


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## radamfi

Are people happy about the conversions to light rail of the Zoetermeer local service and the Rotterdam Hofplein to Den Haag line, or do people wish they were still run by NS?


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## Wilhem275

From the info I collected, I would say the operation is considered a strong success. It was win-win for every stakeholder: they are basically getting more frequent and better connected services with less operational costs, while the previous situation (especially in Zoetermeer) was never free from flaws.

Rotterdam lost a couple of marginally important stops (Hofplein itself was not well connected) while got a much better connection through the city center. Those areas, anyway, have a quick tram connection with other stations on line E.

More people is using those lines today than ever before, so it's appreciated.

There is still space for some improvements, mainly in frequency (Line E runs only every 15', 10 could be better) and in capacity, for example using two trams instead of one.
In rush hour I've seen them pretty packed inside DH (from Central Station towards the south/western suburbs), I don't know if it happens also between the city and Zoetermeer.


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## AlexNL

In december 2013, OV-magazine published an article named 'Randstadrail is sexy public transport', quoting some figures:

- On the Zoetermeer lijn, ridership has almost doubled since taking over from NS. Before RandstadRail there were about 50,000 users/day, that has risen to 90,000.
- The ZoRo-buses that link Zoetermeer and Rodenrijs have reached the target of a daily ridership of 4,000 passengers two and a half years early.
- On the Hofpleinlijn, RandstadRail has become a victim of its own success: RET CEO Pedro Peters admits that they sometimes have to leave passengers behind.

Since the introduction of RandstadRail the frequencies have gone up significantly, as well as the destinations served. The RET operated metro runs once every 10 minutes (during rush hour, slightly lower frequencies off-peak and during holidays) and run directly into the Rotterdam city centre. 

The HTM operated RandstadRail lines go directly towards the city centre of The Hague, reducing the amount of transfers and travel time.



Wilhem275 said:


> There is still space for some improvements, mainly in frequency (Line E runs only every 15', 10 could be better) and in capacity, for example using two trams instead of one.


During rush hour line E runs every 10 minutes during rush hour (except holidays). I usually see double compositions during rush hour, even at the end of evening peak (leaving The Hague at 18:30) but I don't know what compositions are used during non-peak times.

Increasing the frequency to 10' would be better, but I'm betting off-peak ridership is not yet high enough to justify the additional personnel expenses required for this kind of operation. As the RandstadRail network uses dedicated tracks that are not shared with other operators, I don't expect HTM and RET have to pay track access. 

A fully automated metro system (such as the DLR in London) would be a good outcome for the personnel costs, but this is likely to infuriate unions. Furthermore, I don't think that the Dutch are ready for fully automated train operation just yet. Only Amsterdam is currently looking at implemeting ATO (their new M5 trains are prepared for it), but no roll-out plans exist.



> In rush hour I've seen them pretty packed inside DH (from Central Station towards the south/western suburbs), I don't know if it happens also between the city and Zoetermeer.


Zoetermeer trams can be quite packed. It's a "sleeping town" linked to The Hague, lots of people who work somewhere in The Hague live in Zoetermeer and hence have to commute. Looking at HTM's timetables, I see that during rush hour trams go from Zoetermeer to The Hague once every few minutes. With such a high frequency, I think it can be justifiable that you'll have to wait one or two minutes more if a vehicle is really packed.


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## radamfi

I expected that there would be significant ridership increases thanks to RandstadRail. The reason I posed the question was because Manchester has similarly replaced a number of its old railway lines with trams and, while there have been huge increases in passengers, some of the former users of the railway lines miss some of the ticketing benefits of being part of the national rail network, for example through ticketing across the country and being able to use discount railcards. 

Also, some people question the wisdom of replacing heavy rail with light rail and would have advocated modernising the old railway lines and connecting them up with tunnels in the style of the German S-Bahn. The former railway lines around Manchester were very dilapidated (some of them not electrified) so some people claim that the patronage rise is more of a result of electrification and updating the infrastructure and similar increases would have been made if the heavy rail was upgraded instead.

I am particularly interested in the ZoRo bus link. I have been on it a couple of times and been suitably impressed. The Dutch are the masters in bus priority. However, I was wondering whether some people would have preferred the old direct bus between Zoetermeer and Rotterdam? Also, I suspect that patronage along the ZoRo has been inflated by new housing developments along the bus route.


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## Suburbanist

RandstadRail has very different lines, like the very tram-like ones in Den Haag, the light-rail ones to Zoetermeer, and the heavy metro one (line E) Slinge-Den Haag Centraal


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## radamfi

AlexNL said:


> A fully automated metro system (such as the DLR in London) would be a good outcome for the personnel costs, but this is likely to infuriate unions. Furthermore, I don't think that the Dutch are ready for fully automated train operation just yet. Only Amsterdam is currently looking at implemeting ATO (their new M5 trains are prepared for it), but no roll-out plans exist.


The London DLR still has staff to close the doors and also to operate the train from time to time. You have to vacate the front seat if the 'Passenger Service Agent' wants to drive the train. They do, however, cost less than a normal London Underground train driver.

Do the Metro drivers in Amsterdam/Rotterdam actually drive the train, or just open and close the doors with the computer doing the actual driving?


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## Wilhem275

This approach makes much more sense


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## AlexNL

Earlier today NS published a news message to their website, relating to their rolling stock needs and requirements. 

In brief:
- NS is in final talks with CAF, a Spanish manufacturer of rolling stock, for the supply of up to 120 new Sprinter trains. These are planned to enter service from 2018.
- 18 sets of DD-AR coaches are taken from the 'mothballfleet', they will enter service later this year to offer additional capacity in some Sprinter series
- NS is still looking if they need additional double deckers but has not yet taken a decision (return of DDM-1?)
- The tender for the IC NG is ongoing, NS aims to have a selection of qualified bidders by the end of the year
- 81 sets of VIRM are being overhauled by NedTrain, as are 301 ICRm coaches. The ICRm coaches are being prepared for operation on the high speed line.










A CAF train


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## Suburbanist

^^ But will they refurbish the DD-AR taken out of the reserve fleet?

They also mention on that newsletter that all NS routes will have at least 1 train every 30 min per direction all the time during the day. Most already had, some some specific local routes didn't.


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## Slagathor

Oh god, more Southern European rolling stock... Brace yourselves.


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## da_scotty

^^
CAF? A well respected and proven company, I'm not worried


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## Wilhem275

Don't worry, I know those CAFs and they're really good stuff. One of the most rational and pleasant internal designs today, and who worked on the homologation process told me that the building quality is very high (also in hidden parts), they didn't find a single screw out of place. They also showed a great performance under 3 kV.
I have no informations about ride quality, but I have no reason to think it will be less than good, the overall project seems well managed.

I'm just not 100% on the idea of using them as Sprinters, they are supposed to be used a bit more as an IR. Compared to the SLT (which is the perfect Sprinter, IMHO) they have less doors, not a completely flat floor, less free "buffer space" next to the doors.

On the other hand, I never saw a Sprinter really packed, so they will probably offer a good travel quality without suffering these shortcomings.

Here's our article about the official presentation from region Friuli Venezia Giulia, you can see many photos we took:
http://www.ferrovieanordest.it/portale/node/803

PS: to be honest, I would trust also Bombardier products made in Italy (Vado Ligure plant), FS got an entire fleet of locos -the largest in Europe- built there and they're sturdy workhorses... the problem is just with the damn AB...


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## AlexNL

There are sprinter trains that are definitely packed. Go look between Amsterdam and Almere during rush hour, or Arnhem - Nijmegen.


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## AlexNL

This is what the new NS Sprinter EMUs will look like (altho the livery is still subject to change):










Source: Javier Goikoetxea (CAF)


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## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> There are sprinter trains that are definitely packed. Go look between Amsterdam and Almere during rush hour, or Arnhem - Nijmegen.


Sorry, I simplified too much my sentence. What I had in mind is that there are some Sprinter services which travel less loaded, and these could be served well by a train less "S-Bahn" oriented.

The CAFs can be easily configured in a setup more urban-friendly than the ones I saw (CAF technicians explained us the possible variants), for example with the second door seen in the render.
Probably most of the space between the doors can be configured with foldable seats to gain space, although my impression is that the general design is still more prone to mid-range services than proper local links.

But in NL there is a large amount of Sprinter services which are much more mid-range than a pure S-Bahn, so that's not a bad choice at all.


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## M-NL

These trains are also meant to replace the remaining Mat'64 sets. Thus they are meant more for regional service, not for commuter/suburban service. I would expect things like slightly more comfortable seating, because of longer average journey times.


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## VITORIA MAN

Slagathor said:


> Oh god, more Southern European rolling stock... Brace yourselves.


what happens in northern europe with the southern european countries :|


----------



## 3737

Last saturday the first (test)train used the new train tunnel trough Delft.
The tunnel will be used for normal service in Q1 2015.


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## Suburbanist

Don't you think the Delft project should have been built with 4 tracks?


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## Theijs

Suburbanist said:


> Don't you think the Delft project should have been built with 4 tracks?


In fact it is being build with 4 tracks...


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## radamfi

Do Dutch people realise that their train fares are cheap compared to other northern/western Europeans, apart from Belgium?


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> Don't you think the Delft project should have been built with 4 tracks?


Well, two tunnels have been built - they just didn't finish the 2nd one because there was no funding for that at the time.

The doubling of Rijswijk - Delft-Zuid is now expected to be finished somewhere around the end of 2017.



radamfi said:


> Do Dutch people realise that their train fares are cheap compared to other northern/western Europeans, apart from Belgium?


Fares are relatively low, indeed. A main contributor to this is not having a long distance network (as we basically have no long distances). The prices have to be low enough to be competitive with the car.


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## da_scotty

The second tunnel hasn't been build as a matter of fact. Because the construction site is under the current Bridge. So traffic has to switch first before the complete second tunnel can be constructed.

The tunnel will be build though, only, as said, it will be constructed without tracks/equipment due to lack of funding.


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## Slagathor

I may have found a way to save a few cents with the OV Chipcard but I'm not sure it's legal. 

I travel from The Hague to Leiden (and back) once a week. I'm only there roughly 3 hours. Last Friday, I forgot to check out when I arrived in Leiden.

So when I came back to Leiden Centraal, 3 hours later, I checked out. Then I immediately checked back in again because I was going back to The Hague. Naturally, it registered "Overstap OK."

When I got back to The Hague and I checked out, I was charged € 2.50 for the trip versus the normal € 3.30.

Now, it's obviously a small difference I'm not going to go out of my way for an 80 cent discount. But if you have a trip like that 5 times a week, it might be worth considering. So, could they fine you for doing this?


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## da_scotty

I suppose.

Because they can see where you checked in (I believe). So if you are traveling in the direction of the city you originated, I suppose you get a fine. But most likely you'll get a slap on the wrist and a talk


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## AlexNL

What you are doing is legal according to the terms and conditions, altho it is probably not intended like that. That is why you are required to check out when you leave the station. 

On his overview page, a ticket inspector only sees that you checked in in Leiden at a specific time. He does not see your prior check-in in Den Haag, unless he specifically goes to look for it.

In the future this loophole will be closed as The Hague will get gates and the gates in both Leiden and The Hague will be closed.


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## Suburbanist

This happened to me once as well. It happened in 2012, though, and I remember well that I couldn't re-check-in until 3 minutes had passed (I tried to do it immediately, but got an error message).


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## Suburbanist

What happens if someone does this, for instance:

- check-in at Lelystad (NS)
- alight in Amsterdam Zuid, doesn't check-out (NS), check-in on metro gates (GVB)
- check-out in Amsterdam Centraal metro gates (GVB)

then taps the NS totem at Amsterdam Centraal...


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## Wilhem275

Will they keep formally allowing stopovers, when the gates will be in operation?
Example: Check-in in Den Haag, Check-out in Leiden, later check-in in Leiden and finally check-out in Haarlem ==> billed as Den Haag - Haarlem.

Regional transport in most (if not all) countries allows for stopovers, it would be a pity to not allow it anymore.


Other story: yesterday I had another train-nerd friend here and I had to show him all the nice features of the giant model rail layout which goes under the name of "Randstad", using my €14 Dagkaart.

282 km... and he was amazed like I was the first time I discovered all the brilliant solutions used.










Sloterdijk - Schiphol was closed for work. And right after we arrived in Delft, a train broke the overhead wires and the whole line was blocked, there was a bit of confusion and then they reversed to Rotterdam all trains arrived from South.

I also forgot to check out of a tram in Rotterdam with my OV-C icard: and he had some troubles with the 1-hour single ticket because staff requested him to check-out and check-in every time but all machines refused the ticket.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> What happens if someone does this, for instance:
> 
> - check-in at Lelystad (NS)
> - alight in Amsterdam Zuid, doesn't check-out (NS), check-in on metro gates (GVB)
> - check-out in Amsterdam Centraal metro gates (GVB)
> 
> then taps the NS totem at Amsterdam Centraal...


In that case it will be seen as the start of a new journey. When checking in, the system only looks at your last transaction to see if you're eligible for a transfer (long distance discount).



Wilhem275 said:


> Will they keep formally allowing stopovers, when the gates will be in operation?
> Example: Check-in in Den Haag, Check-out in Leiden, later check-in in Leiden and finally check-out in Haarlem ==> billed as Den Haag - Haarlem.
> 
> Regional transport in most (if not all) countries allows for stopovers, it would be a pity to not allow it anymore.


As long as you check in within 35 minutes after having checked out, and not having made any journeys in between, you are given the long distance discount.

If any of those conditions is not met it will be seen as the start of a new journey.


> Other story: yesterday I had another train-nerd friend here and I had to show him all the nice features of the giant model rail layout which goes under the name of "Randstad", using my €14 Dagkaart.
> 
> 282 km... and he was amazed like I was the first time I discovered all the brilliant solutions used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sloterdijk - Schiphol was closed for work. And right after we arrived in Delft, a train broke the overhead wires and the whole line was blocked, there was a bit of confusion and then they reversed to Rotterdam all trains arrived from South.


Those things happen, unfortunately. You can't blame NS for that happening (those things just happen), but you can file a claim to get a refund (Geld terug bij Vertraging).



> I also forgot to check out of a tram in Rotterdam with my OV-C icard:


That can happen as well! If you lost any money because of this, you can request a refund online. I did this once and RET had refunded the money in two days.



> and he had some troubles with the 1-hour single ticket because staff requested him to check-out and check-in every time but all machines refused the ticket.


Was it an RET issued ticket that was still valid at that time (i.e. has it not been more than an hour since the first check-in)? An "HTM uurkaartje" is not valid on RET vehicles and vice versa.


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## dynastylimo4

Beautiful netherland... It's amazing. Can't describe in words. I really want to visit those place. Great ...


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## verfmeer

Slagathor said:


> I may have found a way to save a few cents with the OV Chipcard but I'm not sure it's legal.
> 
> I travel from The Hague to Leiden (and back) once a week. I'm only there roughly 3 hours. Last Friday, I forgot to check out when I arrived in Leiden.
> 
> So when I came back to Leiden Centraal, 3 hours later, I checked out. Then I immediately checked back in again because I was going back to The Hague. Naturally, it registered "Overstap OK."
> 
> When I got back to The Hague and I checked out, I was charged € 2.50 for the trip versus the normal € 3.30.
> 
> Now, it's obviously a small difference I'm not going to go out of my way for an 80 cent discount. But if you have a trip like that 5 times a week, it might be worth considering. So, could they fine you for doing this?


It is legal. Because this is a new journey, you can travel anywhere, including your original starting point. I do this very often with the bus, when I went to my dentist last week for example, I checked out and was back at the bus within 35 minutes, so I saved 88 cents. Even if I missed that bus it wouldn't be a problem, because I could take another bus for 2 stops, coming closer to my destination and it gives you 35 more minutes.
When travelling with the train I suppose this is legal, as long as you check out within 6 hours after your check-in (otherwise it wil cost you 20 Euros).


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## radamfi

verfmeer said:


> It is legal. Because this is a new journey, you can travel anywhere, including your original starting point. I do this very often with the bus, when I went to my dentist last week for example, I checked out and was back at the bus within 35 minutes, so I saved 88 cents. Even if I missed that bus it wouldn't be a problem, because I could take another bus for 2 stops, coming closer to my destination and it gives you 35 more minutes.
> When travelling with the train I suppose this is legal, as long as you check out within 6 hours after your check-in (otherwise it wil cost you 20 Euros).


I have used this technique often when spending time walking around city centres. I just hop on the first bus/tram I see as the 35 minutes comes to an end.


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## dimlys1994

Some more photos from Delft, taken from Railway Gazette:


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## Suburbanist

The Dutch... always economical with escalators. In most countries, there would be a narrower staircase and 3 more escalators. 

I wonder why is this the case. It happens not only on station buildings, but pretty much anywhere. It is noticeable how even people living or working in multi-story buildings will use stairs instead of lifts for 2 (climb) up to 4 (descend) floors ignoring the mechanical elevation structures.


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## AlexNL

People like to, and are encouraged to, walk. It's a very small thing but it helps staying healthy.


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> As long as you check in within 35 minutes after having checked out, and not having made any journeys in between, you are given the long distance discount.


This is pretty limiting for stopovers. There's not much one can do within 35 minutes around a station, and without local transports.

Also, I guess they will not apply the discount if I chech-in at a different station (example: Delft - Rotterdam CS, walk to Blaak, then Blaak - Dordrecht).

These situations are not very frequent, but when they happen it's nice to have an open regional ticket and be free to use the system.
If NL doesn't want area ticketing, at least the train ticketing should be actually integrated with the local usage of OV-C (single basistarief, free change from train to PT <35', pay-per-km).
That could be a way to have a flexible and integrated system without getting rid of the OV-C system.



AlexNL said:


> Those things happen, unfortunately. You can't blame NS for that happening (those things just happen), but you can file a claim to get a refund (Geld terug bij Vertraging).


Nah, I don't blame them, it can happen anywhere. I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often, with 1,5 kV and this dense traffic with strong accelerations.
In the end we didn't have any serious delay, we were travelling away from the troubled stretch. There was just a bit of confusion because they loaded people on a DD-AR to Venlo and then they announced that another train was going to depart first, so everybody had to move. Not a big deal.

We also noticed that, in emergency conditions, all three tracks in Delft were needed... next year they will have just two.



AlexNL said:


> That can happen as well! If you lost any money because of this, you can request a refund online. I did this once and RET had refunded the money in two days.
> 
> Was it an RET issued ticket that was still valid at that time (i.e. has it not been more than an hour since the first check-in)? An "HTM uurkaartje" is not valid on RET vehicles and vice versa.


Yep, I found the _formulier_ but I'm waiting because yesterday not all transactions from RET showed up on my card account. Now they did.
We simply jumped off because we realized we were going in the wrong direction.
I wonder if they'll refund also the basistarief (which I paid again after 5', on the next tram we took).

About the single ticket, it was issued by RET staff on board, IIRC the agent checked it in before handing it over to my friend.
On the next tram the agent checked it but there was something wrong because it was still associated with the previous ride. Then he corrected the error with his machine and told us that also single tickets must undergo the common checking procedure*; following validators always considered it invalid.

*and that was the moment my friend began to swear against the OV-C system :lol: it's a 1-hour ticket limited to the RET network, who the hell cares about revenues :lol:



Suburbanist said:


> even people living or working in multi-story buildings will use stairs instead of lifts for 2 (climb) up to 4 (descend) floors ignoring the mechanical elevation structures.


Oh come on, I'm the less athletic person I know and even I follow that rule!


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## AlexNL

Back in the day of the Strippenkaart, it was permitted to use the train in some urban areas (e.g. between the main stations in Amsterdam). This was abolished when the OV-chipkaart was introduced, probably because of challenges when it comes to integrating the urban tariff into the software used for price calculation.

Pricing with the OV-chipkaart _is_ difficult. The tariff is dependant on the operator and the area in which a line runs. Sometimes, there are multiple operators and areas, in which tariffs can be different even for vehicles that follow the same routes. For example, in the city of Amsterdam the transport is carried out by GVB, who is owned and paid by the council of Amsterdam. However, some regional lines are operated by Connexion or EBS under contract of the province of Noord-Holland. Because of different levels of subsidy and usage, a kilometer with GVB may be cheaper than with EBS.


----------



## Sunfuns

Nor do you need to be Dutch to follow such a sensible approach. I also never use elevators for less than four floors unless I carry something heavy.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The most obvious cases, I think, are trips between the stations served by GVB and NS concurrently, for instance, between Amsterdam Zuid and Amsterdam Bijlmer Arena.

By the way, I have a question: if one wants to travel, on NS, between Amsterdam Lelylaan and Amsterdam Zuid, what is the valid route? Via Schiphol (backtracking a lot) or round the way via Amsterdam Centraal and Duivendrecht?


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Nor do you need to be Dutch to follow such a sensible approach. I also never use elevators for less than four floors unless I carry something heavy.


I live on 3rd floor (first is 8m high) of a 12-floor building, I almost always use the elevator both ways.


----------



## Road_UK

Suburbanist said:


> The Dutch... always economical with escalators. In most countries, there would be a narrower staircase and 3 more escalators.
> 
> I wonder why is this the case. It happens not only on station buildings, but pretty much anywhere. It is noticeable how even people living or working in multi-story buildings will use stairs instead of lifts for 2 (climb) up to 4 (descend) floors ignoring the mechanical elevation structures.


Some people like to stick with what they are used to and what works, and won't listen to people coming from far away dictating to them how everything has to be high-tech because they got f*ck-all in their own country.


----------



## Suburbanist

Road_UK said:


> Some people like to stick with what they are used to and what works, and won't listen to people coming from far away dictating to them how everything has to be high-tech because they got f*ck-all in their own country.


Why do you take any comment I make for an _attempt to impose a different set of behaviors on a large group of people?_


----------



## Road_UK

Because you've got a habit of doing so. I have invited you are number of times to come to the Dutch section and lay out your plans for our little country, but it seems you are afraid. Do it anyway, and we can have a normal discussion. I am sure your Dutch is more than adequate by now....


----------



## verfmeer

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The most obvious cases, I think, are trips between the stations served by GVB and NS concurrently, for instance, between Amsterdam Zuid and Amsterdam Bijlmer Arena.
> 
> By the way, I have a question: if one wants to travel, on NS, between Amsterdam Lelylaan and Amsterdam Zuid, what is the valid route? Via Schiphol (backtracking a lot) or round the way via Amsterdam Centraal and Duivendrecht?


The fastest way can be used. In this case, going via Schiphol takes you 19 minutes, vs 49 minutes via Centraal/Duivendrecht. This is a hypothetical situation though, most people will use the GVB metro.


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist would drive his car into the elevator if he could. Park in front of his apartment's front door.


----------



## radamfi

I thought that NS don't have a boarding fee? However, I looked on 9292.nl for Roodeschool to Assen, and the fare breakdown is 7.00 from Roodeschool to Groningen on Arriva and 4.30 from Groningen to Assen on NS. Going the other way it is 5.40 on NS and 5.90 on Arriva.


----------



## Slagathor

They have one. I think it's 80 cents.


----------



## radamfi

When do you pay the NS boarding fee? I just tested AZU, Utrecht to Rotterdam Centraal and you pay the 0.87 boarding fee and 0.75 fare on the bus, and then 9.90 on the train. But the train only fare from Utrecht Centraal to Rotterdam Centraal is still 9.90.


----------



## Slagathor

Really? That's odd...


----------



## verfmeer

The local public transport companies have a common boarding fee, which is paid in the first vehicle. Because the train is more expensive than the local public transport, it has it's own ticket prices, including boarding fee. There simply isn't any integration between local public transport and the NS.


----------



## radamfi

I have always understood that NS train fares and local bus/tram/metro were priced independently, so that is why this discussion of the NS boarding fee is news to me.

The NS fares are here:

http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/assets/NS/tariefinformatie/prijzen-enkele-reiezen-2014

Utrecht to Rotterdam is 56 km so costs 9.90 according to the table. As I understand it, the concept of 'boarding fee' is to enable the pricing formula

boarding fee + (number of km * price per km)

But the NS train fares don't work like that. The train fares get cheaper per km the further you travel, until you get to 243 km and any further distance comes for free. This has been the same as long as I've looked into Dutch train pricing (since the late 90s). 

So I can't see the relevance of a boarding fee for NS.


----------



## saewer

Nope, that's not correct. Also for rail travel there's a boading fare which is set on €0,87 fixed. This fare is the same for all public transporation providers and methods.


----------



## AlexNL

Not correct, you don't pay the € 0,87 if you travel with NS. Their fare calculation method is different from the other operators.


----------



## M-NL

radamfi said:


> The train fares get cheaper per km the further you travel, until you get to 243 km and any further distance comes for free. This has been the same as long as I've looked into Dutch train pricing (since the late 90s).


This 243 km is that per one-way trip, the entire return trip or per day? Return tickets in the traditional sense don't exist any more, as in their fare is now calculated based on 2 one-way tickets. Otherwise 2 long trips on a single return ticket would be cheaper then using the chip card. In all reality there probably aren't that many possibilities in the Netherlands to make a single 243 km trip.


----------



## radamfi

I am visiting NL on Friday and for once there is a cheap train ticket deal when I am there

http://www.treinreiziger.nl/reizen/kortingsacties/hema_treinkaartjes:_ns_dagkaart_najaar_2014-146636

But, OP = OP!

Is it likely to be sold out by Friday?



M-NL said:


> This 243 km is that per one-way trip, the entire return trip or per day? Return tickets in the traditional sense don't exist any more, as in their fare is now calculated based on 2 one-way tickets. Otherwise 2 long trips on a single return ticket would be cheaper then using the chip card. In all reality there probably aren't that many possibilities in the Netherlands to make a single 243 km trip.


For one-way trips over 243 km you pay the maximum single fare of 25.40, for example:

Groningen to Rotterdam
Den Helder to Heerlen
Den Helder to Vlissingen

I just noticed that if you transfer between companies you might pay less, for example Roodeschool to Vlissingen costs 25.30.


----------



## radamfi

Finally, some online reference to the 25 euro dagkaart at Eindhoven airport, dated 10 October.

http://www.treinreiziger.nl/kennisnet/internationale_vergelijking:_toeristen_en_de_trein-146540

I got mine back in August. Does anyone know if they are still selling them at Eindhoven airport? I'm planning to pick another one up tomorrow. I'm using iDBus from London to Amsterdam tonight then getting the train to Eindhoven to pick it up. If they aren't selling them any more then I won't go to Eindhoven, as I would then go direct to Arnhem instead, so it would be useful to know now.


----------



## Theijs

radamfi said:


> Finally, some online reference to the 25 euro dagkaart at Eindhoven airport, dated 10 October. http://www.treinreiziger.nl/kennisnet/internationale_vergelijking:_toeristen_en_de_trein-146540 I got mine back in August. Does anyone know if they are still selling them at Eindhoven airport? I'm planning to pick another one up tomorrow.


I was 2 November on the airport, GWK was already closed. GWK still sells it, but no price was mentioned on the poster.


----------



## radamfi

I did buy another one at Eindhoven airport yesterday morning, as well as buying a code from HEMA. At GWK, I was given a leaflet saying that you can use it for free on the 400/401 buses between the airport and central station. The ticket does not work the reader on the bus but the driver knew that it was accepted.

At Arnhem, I touched in on the Arriva/Breng reader and the dagkaart was accepted. I touched out shortly afterwards to cancel the touch in. I also touched in at Ede-Wageningen and out at Amersfoort on the Valleilijn readers. So I would assume that the 25 euro dagkaart can be used on all train companies.


----------



## radamfi

This is what you get with the 25 euro dagkaart at Eindhoven airport. The GWK lady circled the bus numbers.


----------



## M-NL

The last AnsaldoBreda V250 has left the country yesterday and is now being towed back to Pistoia.


----------



## da_scotty

Luckily they don't have to update the google imagery:


----------



## Wilhem275

Slagathor said:


> I may have found a way to save a few cents with the OV Chipcard but I'm not sure it's legal.
> 
> I travel from The Hague to Leiden (and back) once a week. I'm only there roughly 3 hours. Last Friday, I forgot to check out when I arrived in Leiden.
> 
> So when I came back to Leiden Centraal, 3 hours later, I checked out. Then I immediately checked back in again because I was going back to The Hague. Naturally, it registered "Overstap OK."
> 
> When I got back to The Hague and I checked out, I was charged € 2.50 for the trip versus the normal € 3.30.
> 
> Now, it's obviously a small difference I'm not going to go out of my way for an 80 cent discount. But if you have a trip like that 5 times a week, it might be worth considering. So, could they fine you for doing this?





verfmeer said:


> It is legal. Because this is a new journey, you can travel anywhere, including your original starting point.
> ...
> When travelling with the train I suppose this is legal, as long as you check out within 6 hours after your check-in (otherwise it wil cost you 20 Euros).


I tried this and it made me spare much more than a few cents.

Dordrecht - Rotterdam Lombardijen EUR 2,- instead of 3,-

Den Haag HS - Enkhuizen EUR 18,30
Enkhuizen - Den Haag HS EUR 6,80

Is the 6 hours limit enforced automatically?


----------



## Slagathor

Wow, that's a huge difference.


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> Is the 6 hours limit enforced automatically?


Only on postpaid passes (Traject Vrij, Business Card, ...).


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> Only on postpaid passes (Traject Vrij, Business Card, ...).


So, with the common _Reizen op saldo_, I can virtually stay around for the whole day?

Also, at which time of the night are "previous day travels" closed by the system? The question arose with a friend while discussing what happens with night travels.


Not strictly related to railways, but the Phileas project is over: the producer (APTS) is starting bankrupcy procedures, and I'm pretty sure no one will develop the project anymore.

Not suprising news, it's just following the same course of all the other "innovative trams on tyres" projects which, IMHO, had no better effects than wasting a lot of money and leaving some cities with a prototypal and incomplete transit system.
At home I have to deal with a couple of Translohr systems and they're afwul: they put together the disadvantages of both trams and buses.
I have no mercy for these projects, nor for those administrations who chose them while the market is offering great trams and buses.

A couple of articles in Dutch:
http://www.volkskrant.nl/economie/g...ielen-phileas-eindigt-toch-als-flop~a3799154/
http://www.dichtbij.nl/helmond/regi...eas-is-bouwer-van-de-bus-failliet-update.aspx


----------



## Wilhem275

That's what I see 24/7 looking out of my window :lol: I'd rather use them! 

But I already have a couple of day tickets in my pocket, I will have my tours of the network. I want to ride a Plan V before they're put to sleep.


----------



## radamfi

I wonder why there are so many deals to Eindhoven airport? I can think of two possible reasons.

1. From the point of view of the airport, Eindhoven airport wants to entice passengers away from Schiphol.

2. From the point of view of NS, there is competition from a direct bus service from Eindhoven airport to 's-Hertogenbosch, Utrecht and Amsterdam. 

http://www.airexpressbus.com/

I didn't think commercial express buses were allowed in the Netherlands for domestic travel, but I presume this is allowed because it goes to an airport. Is there a likelihood of the Netherlands allowing express buses to compete with trains more generally? Germany had a similar ban, only allowing express buses to airports, but they changed the law with effect from January 2013 and long distance bus competition in Germany is now huge.

Given the low price of trains in the Netherlands, express buses would have to be very cheap to be worthwhile. 

There do, however, seem to be a growing number of express buses to other countries.

I remember a lot of people carrying around the paper Spoorboekje. I would have thought it was much bigger seller than the timetable books from other countries given it was just the right size and it was a cheap book as well.


----------



## radamfi

Wilhem275 said:


> I think he means that, if the decision of SNCB will be to install 3G/4G repeaters instead of WiFi, the service will not be accessible by users from abroad; while WiFi on NS trains is open to anyone*.
> 
> In fact I see no point in installing such repeaters, today.
> 
> *including people not actually travelling: when I didn't have a Dutch number I often hooked stopped ICs for a quick surf


Do people find the train WiFi reliable enough? I have generally given up on train WiFi (I have tried it in various countries) as I tend to find my own data more reliable and I usually have enough data so I don't need to save money by using the train WiFi. Nowadays I even prefer to use my own data when travelling around Europe. For most countries, I use an Orange Spain SIM card which gives 100 MB for 24 hours for 1 euro in all EU countries plus Norway and Iceland. For the Netherlands I use *Bliep which is ideal for people like me who visit regularly but for short trips.


----------



## MrAronymous

Wifi is can get pretty slow or unusable(not being able to log in)at peak hours. When it's less busy they it works fine, though you sometimes have to try logging in multiple times.


----------



## AlexNL

I never use Wi-Fi on board the train, because I have plenty of data with my Vodafone subscription. Having a dedicated 4G connection for myself beats a shared 3G connection hands-down. 

Last year, I tried using the Wi-Fi connection on board a Thalys train. While it's a fun gimmick, it barely worked and I would definitely not pay money for it. The Wi-Fi was probably overloaded, as I was on a train that left Brussels just after 5 in the afternoon...


----------



## Surel

radamfi said:


> Do people find the train WiFi reliable enough? I have generally given up on train WiFi (I have tried it in various countries) as I tend to find my own data more reliable and I usually have enough data so I don't need to save money by using the train WiFi. Nowadays I even prefer to use my own data when travelling around Europe. For most countries, I use an Orange Spain SIM card which gives 100 MB for 24 hours for 1 euro in all EU countries plus Norway and Iceland. For the Netherlands I use *Bliep which is ideal for people like me who visit regularly but for short trips.


Wifi is ok. Don't forget that wifi train router uses probably the same mobile network that you use, even if you are on roaming (that is choosing the best available service). As I see above it might be different with 4G but honestly I did not notice the difference, but that might be my provider. I have also used wifi and phone data in CZ and they both had connection problems at the same times, when the train was passing through the remote areas. I really liked when NS introduced the wifi, I remember videoskyping in the train and commenting on where the train was passing. That was cool. Aggregation can make it unusable in peak. True.

Wifi is usable also for laptops and tablets that are lacking sim card.

btw, for that data roaming, do you have a double sim phone? Otherwise it can get quite unhandy, doesn't it?

It is however true that wifi may become obsolete over time, the only advantage it would keep would be the fact that it would still be free. The lack of charging facilities seemed to me always a bigger problem in trains, than the internet connection, when using wifi or data extensively, the charging becomes even more urgent.


----------



## Wilhem275

In this image, a ground barrier at a level crossing in Gelderland, to block the access to the tracks.

Against vehicles or against animals?


----------



## MrAronymous

Against animals obviously. I mean the rail corridor is fenced off so no use for vehicles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_grid


----------



## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> No, it isn't. All communication is encrypted (ProRail assumes the Key Manager role) and there is plenty of redundancy in the network.


In fact the info is available on wikipedia, but I was to amused by earlier responses to post it.

And by the way, there is no such thing as ERTMS-3. There is level 3 and baseline 3, but they're two completely different things.


----------



## MarcVD

Wilhem275 said:


> ^^ That is true only for the slowest service  The Thalys will still take almost half of that time.


Compare the timings for the "new" IC service that will start next sunday with how it was before the Fyra farce started..

Also, more than 3 hours for 210 km is really not competitive, even on a classic
railway line.

Brussels-Luxemburg takes half an hour less, for the same distance, with much more stops, and thru much more difficult terrain... and is one of the reputedly
worse SNCB lines.


----------



## Wilhem275

I agree that the overall time is poor, I'm making a comparison table with the Vlissingen - Lelystad service (they run at pretty close times) and the Brussel IC is really sloooow... even if it skips a lot of stops.

Later I'll work on these data and post something.

The general reason is in fact the need to keep this train behind a normal IC (which is slow) between Roosendaal and Amsterdam Centraal.


----------



## Suburbanist

The IC Amsterdam C.- Bruxelles-Midi is just a political-appeasing service, though a cheap one. Thalys is the flagship service on that route, and with 12 daily departures on weekdays and 10 on weekends, it is no longer just the extra option it used to before HSL Zuid opened. The advantage it has it that it now serves National Aiport directly. It used to take quite a long time to go from Netherlands to BRU by train, it got a lil' better with the diavolo connector with an easier transfer in Mechelen, not there is a direct train. 

When will this IC to Belgium start running via Breda?

I wonder how much the strikes in Belgium will affect fleet management on the days that follow those "action days".


----------



## radamfi

Surel said:


> btw, for that data roaming, do you have a double sim phone? Otherwise it can get quite unhandy, doesn't it?.


I have an unlocked WiFi router. I use that even in the UK as I find it cheaper to use a different SIM card for data and calls/texts.


----------



## AlexNL

MrAronymous said:


> Against animals obviously. I mean the rail corridor is fenced off so no use for vehicles.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_grid


Actually, this grid is intended to prevent humans from entering the tracks. Especially in the more rural areas, people tend to walk along the railway to walk their dogs or to get somewhere quicker...



Suburbanist said:


> When will this IC to Belgium start running via Breda?



The plan is december 2016. NS anticipates that this will "speed up" the journey by an awe-inspiring 7 minutes...


----------



## Suburbanist

I was noticing some strange feature on NS subscriptions. Consider the Weekend Vrijf abonnement for instance.

For the pass holder, it offers



> Wanneer heeft u maximaal voordeel van Weekend Vrij?
> 
> In het weekend: vrij reizen
> (vrijdagavond 18.30 uur tot maandagochtend 04.00 uur)
> 
> In de daluren (ma t/m vr): 40% korting
> (9.00 - 16.00 uur en 18.30 - 6.30 uur)
> 
> Tijdens de feestdagen: 40% korting (bij feestdag op ma t/m vr) of vrij reizen (bij feestdag in het weekend)



However, for accompanying travelers, it offers



> Nog meer voordelen van Weekend Vrij
> 
> [...]40% korting voor max. 3 medereizigers (na 9.00 uur ’s ochtends en het hele weekend)


Which implies the following: accompanying passengers can travel with a 40% discount between 16.30 and 19.00, but not the pass holder him/herself!


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> The plan is december 2016. NS anticipates that this will "speed up" the journey by an awe-inspiring 7 minutes...


Wait, this means I got it wrong... what I got is that the train would have been routed via HSL all the way from Rotterdam to Antwerpen, no intermediate stops. So this is not true. 

So, to recap things, we should have:
- Beneluxtrein Amsterdam - Brussel via Den Haag, Breda and using the HSL south of Rotterdam 
- IC Direct Amsterdam - Breda all the way via HSL 
- IC Den Haag CS - Eindhoven (former Venlo) via HSL 

All sharing the same fleet of E186 and coaches. Correct?


----------



## da_scotty

Not the same E186 fleet.

The Beneluxtrein uses belgian locomotives, but the same coaches
The IC-services use Dutch E186 (the yellow/blue ones) with the same coaches!


----------



## Suburbanist

Reason they are diverting the trains to HSL-Zuid is to provide connectivity at Breda and, indirectly, to many other cities like Eindhoven, 's-Hertogenbosch, Arnhem, Nijmegen, Tilburg, all fit with IC trains that call at Breda. 

However, I think that this Benelux service should use the HSL between Rotterdam and Hoofddorp, OR originate in Den Haag Centraal.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...te-€200m-for-r-net-expansion.html?channel=537
> 
> *Dutch allocate €200m for R-Net expansion*
> Thursday, December 11, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _DUTCH secretary of state for infrastructure Mrs Wilma Mansveld has announced that the government will grant €200m to South Holland to extend the R-Net network of high-quality public transport services around the Randstad conurbation_
> 
> The agreement to extend the network to Gouda, Alphen-aan-den-Rijn, Leiden, Katwijk and Noordwijk-aan-Zee encompasses the first mainline R-Net rail services, including additional Netherlands Railways (NS) Sprinter services and regional services on the Gouda – Alphen line, which will be operated by NS subsidiary Abellio under a contract awarded by the South Holland provincial government. Abellio will use a fleet of two-car Stadler Flirt 3 EMUs, which will carry R-Net livery, when it takes over operation of this line in December 2016


----------



## MrAronymous

R-net rail service? So how frequent will that be? I thought one of the deciding factors to give a line R-net branding is that the frequency should be every ~10 minutes.

@Suburbanist; but that was one of the biggest complaints about the Fyra; that it didn't call at The Hague. 

I checked my schedule for my usual Schiphol-Rotterdam commute for next week and it turns out IC Brussel is 2 minutes slower than the normal Intercity service, eventhough it skips 5 stations. How on earth is that even possible. :|


----------



## Slagathor

I think he means the extension to the university. I don't think that's operating yet.


----------



## da_scotty

Nope, the tram tracks/bus lane are complete in the TU-Campus area, except the reversing loop. Between the station and the Zuidpoort Halt tracks have been laid as well. The Tram/Bus Lane has been in use in the Campus since September for bus lines 69/40 and partly line 121.

The connection at the railway station, the Zuidpoort halt tracks and the new bridge over the Schie have yet to be build. Completion date is expected in 2017, but I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## Wilhem275

If the 19 (RR) is terminating there, do they need a reversing loop anyway?


----------



## Suburbanist

Does any revenue service use this track?


----------



## Wilhem275

I've seen some night services to Gouda (then reversing towards Rotterdam) departing from Hollands Spoor, in case of planned disruptions on the main line.

It would be interesting to see some regular service terminating there, but the line (to Gouda) is already packed.


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> I don't know if this will be a permanent situation, but it appears that with the new timetable all Sprinters Den Haag CS - Breda/Roosendaal are now operated with SLTs instead of SGMs (this used to happen only during weekends).


For the foreseeable future that is a permanent situation.


----------



## da_scotty

Wilhem275 said:


> I've seen some night services to Gouda (then reversing towards Rotterdam) departing from Hollands Spoor, in case of planned disruptions on the main line.
> 
> It would be interesting to see some regular service terminating there, but the line (to Gouda) is already packed.


Some services use it when the Rotterdam-Gouda Line is closed, then some IC trains run Gouda-HS-Rotterdam or vice versa.


----------



## radamfi

Is there a list of unusual passenger movements, for example when a section of track is only used a few times a day, or even just once a week?

like this:

http://www.psul4all.free-online.co.uk/intro.htm


----------



## da_scotty

I believe Somda.nl has some of that, I'm not too sure!


----------



## radamfi

da_scotty said:


> I believe Somda.nl has some of that, I'm not too sure!


That does at least answer another of my questions. I was going to ask if there was a site showing intermediate times between stops and somda.nl does that.


----------



## radamfi

This site has information on obscure passenger services throughout the world, including the Netherlands:

http://egtre.info/wiki/Netherlands_-_Lines_with_Obscure_or_Sparse_passenger_services


----------



## Suburbanist

Night trains in Brabant are under risk of being cut at the end of 2015. The province doesn't want to pay anymore for it, citing low ridership, and it will be up to the cities to decide whether to fund night trains or not.


----------



## da_scotty

pfff it's on off on off, maybe the cause of low ridership has partly something to do with the service being there one year, than being cut only to be reinstated and cut again...


----------



## Road_UK

All we have to do is turn Brabant into one big city and it'll be running again. Right, Surby?


----------



## Suburbanist

da_scotty said:


> pfff it's on off on off, maybe the cause of low ridership has partly something to do with the service being there one year, than being cut only to be reinstated and cut again...


Night trains have been operating since 2010, at least the Rotterdam-Eindhoven-Utrecht "V" axes. What has been on and off is the shuttle 's-Hertogenbosch-Tilburg.

I think they operated trains, at a time, on Thursday nights as well.

Now NS says it will operate trains until 2.00 on weekends, and local govt's need to pay for later trains.


----------



## AlexNL

The problem with the Brabant night trains is that they are used mostly by drunk people for intra-Brabant transfer. NS hoped that lots of people would use these night trains to go to and from Schiphol airport, but demand for those services has been quite low on the trains that leave after 2:00.

It costs NS a lot of money to hire the necessary security personnel at the stations and on board the trains, and NS is no longer willing to cover these costs even partially (and rightfully so). The trains are used by a lot of students who travel for free thanks to their OV-studentenkaart, which yields NS no money and thus no funds to run the trains.

Maybe NS should do what RET and GVB are already doing for their nightly transport: i.e. charging a seperate fee or requiring some sort of supplement?


----------



## Wilhem275

AlexNL said:


> Maybe NS should do what RET and GVB are already doing for their nightly transport: i.e. charging a seperate fee or requiring some sort of supplement?


I see NS' point, but I think there should be some -governative?- support for this kind of usage, to put into youngsters' mind the habitude of using the train when drunk.

No one likes dealing with drunkies, but better on a train than driving a car...


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> I see NS' point, but I think there should be some -governative?- support for this kind of usage, to put into youngster's mind the habitude of using the train when drunk.
> 
> No one likes dealing with drunkies, but better on a train than driving a car...


I don't have data, I can only speak for the students we supervise/help here: they like the ability to use their OV-Chipkaarts to go party in a nearby town, and not have to wait till first morning trains on Sundays. 

Before I started to drive more, I well remember taking the first trains Sunday morning, at 7.40 or something like that (I was bored and liked to make most use of my Museumkaart  ), there were always a lot of sleepy youngsters at the station and on trains, they were clearly going back home after a night out.

I think night trains made that option more interesting for more people. 

I don't know if they still do this on the Randstad, but the times I used night trains to go to Schiphol, they always had a lot of security staff. In Tilburg, they had 3 people controlling access to the platforms, in Rotterdam there were even more (before renovation was completed). They kept asking for tickets several times (tunnel access, platforms), much more than during day service. OF course station was nowhere as busy as daytime, but the level of staffing was noticeable. I'm sure night staffing costs more. 

There is also the issue of disruptions. I think they are now over with it, but in 2011-13 more often than not there were delays or cancellations on the route to Rotterdam and they were fixing several things on the tracks.


----------



## radamfi

AlexNL said:


> NS hoped that lots of people would use these night trains to go to and from Schiphol airport, but demand for those services has been quite low on the trains that leave after 2:00.


If I lived in Breda/Tilburg/Eindhoven I would be using the night trains for that reason, not after a night out. But wouldn't you want to get to the airport for early flights on any night of the week, not just at weekends? How about running a luxury bus (coach in British English) from Noord Brabant to Rotterdam on nights that the train doesn't run, or even direct to Schiphol? You can get from many parts of England and Wales to Heathrow or Gatwick on overnight coaches. If you live in Eindhoven, you can't get to Schiphol until 0659 (unless you pay silly money for airport parking) but if you live in Amsterdam you can get to Eindhoven airport for 0515, because there is a bus from Amsterdam at 0330.


----------



## Suburbanist

There are several private shuttles that take you to Schiphol during the night. They are not expensive if you book in advance. You can get a transfer from Eindhoven to Schiphol for €200 on a van sitting 5 passengers and luggage. Not cheap, but also not terribly expensive if you are travelling as a family, for instance.


----------



## Wilhem275

Yesterday NS announced a reduced timetable for today, due to snow.
Snow arrived, but it's nothing serious, at least here in Den Haag:









Two hours ago, and now there's even less on the ground.

Nonetheless some parts of the network seem to be in total distress: looking at the planner a good 60% of scheduled trains are not running at all, and most of the rest has at least +15'. Others are only covering a part of the route (for example it seems nothing to Vlissingen is making it past of Dordrecht or Roosendaal).

Many problems are reported in the Planner as "points malfunction", I suspect mainly in Rotterdam Centraal.


Now, unless somewhere there is much more snow than here, these are not extreme conditions. What is failing so bad? Bad maintenance? The points' heaters not working (I see one from here)? Trains stuck?

PS: right now a northbound Thalys just passed by...


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a question: which Dutch stations have mid-point switches that allow two train-berth (like splitting platforms in a and b sectors)?


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> Yesterday NS announced a reduced timetable for today, due to snow.
> Snow arrived, but it's nothing serious, at least here in Den Haag:
> 
> 
> Two hours ago, and now there's even less on the ground.
> 
> Nonetheless some parts of the network seem to be in total distress: looking at the planner a good 60% of scheduled trains are not running at all, and most of the rest has at least +15'. Others are only covering a part of the route (for example it seems nothing to Vlissingen is making it past of Dordrecht or Roosendaal).
> 
> Many problems are reported in the Planner as "points malfunction", I suspect mainly in Rotterdam Centraal.
> 
> 
> Now, unless somewhere there is much more snow than here, these are not extreme conditions. What is failing so bad? Bad maintenance? The points' heaters not working (I see one from here)? Trains stuck?
> 
> PS: right now a northbound Thalys just passed by...[/QUOTE]
> 
> It's a kind of wet and sticky snow that disturbs switches so larger stations like Roosendaal are easily crippled.
> 
> [URL="http://www.telegraaf.nl/teleweer/23495401/__Zuid-Nederland_witte_wereld__.html"]The snowfall is worse in Brabant province.[/URL]


----------



## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: which Dutch stations have mid-point switches that allow two train-berth (like splitting platforms in a and b sectors)?


For sure:
- Amsterdam Centraal
- Leiden
- Dordrecht
- Roosendaal

I'm not sure about Haarlem and Utrecht (probably some were removed).


----------



## damiantenzijthoff

Wilhem275 said:


> For sure:
> - Amsterdam Centraal
> - Leiden
> - Dordrecht
> - Roosendaal
> 
> I'm not sure about Haarlem and Utrecht (probably some were removed).


Geldermalsen as well.


----------



## Surel

9


Slagathor said:


> It's a kind of wet and sticky snow that disturbs switches so larger stations like Roosendaal are easily crippled.
> 
> The snowfall is worse in Brabant province.


I don't have that good understanding of the technicalities of it, but isn't it possible to make it snow proof? Did someone decide that the costs of making it snow proof are higher than having part of the network shutdown almost every winter, or every time it snows?


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## da_scotty

I think these stations have them (based on sporenplan.nl) :

Zwolle, Den Bosch, Nijmegen, Venlo, Roermond, Uitgeest, Haarlem, Deventer, Hengelo, Almelo, Amersfoort, Rotterdam (1a/1b), Zutphen, Roosendaal, Sittard, Maastricht, Amsterdam CS, Leiden CS, Dordrecht, (and strictly speaking, Rotterdam Stadium)

Utrecht has them but there all being removed!


----------



## Suburbanist

da_scotty said:


> Utrecht has them but there all being removed!


Seriously? Isn't that the station that needs them the most, since trains reverse there, taking a lot of dwell time for other "timed transfers" as well?


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## Momo1435

Prorail wants to untangle the tracks at Utrecht Centraal by reducing the number of switches. All the different services will get their own dedicated tracks so they can pass the station passing less switches then they do now. The non platform tracks running through the station will also be removed. 

This does mean that there will be less cross platform connections between routes, but that is compensated by a more solid time table and also more trains.


----------



## MarcVD

Wilhem275 said:


> Yesterday NS announced a reduced timetable for today, due to snow.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Nonetheless some parts of the network seem to be in total distress: looking at the planner a good 60% of scheduled trains are not running at all, and most of the rest has at least +15'. Others are only covering a part of the route (for example it seems nothing to Vlissingen is making it past of Dordrecht or Roosendaal)


Looks like the Amsterdam-Brussels ICs are part of the casualties... Just looked
at www.railtime.be and saw four of them cancelled already. Here in Belgium it
does not look as bad. A tree downed on the tracks, and a few other minor
malfunctions, but nothing too serious.

But it's true that in other occasions, snow also put the rail network down to 
their knees... why is that ? What makes the rail network so fragile today, while
40 years ago, they still were taking pride from the fact that trains would run
safely and reliably in any kind of weather ?


----------



## Slagathor

MarcVD said:


> Looks like the Amsterdam-Brussels ICs are part of the casualties... Just looked
> at www.railtime.be and saw four of them cancelled already. Here in Belgium it
> does not look as bad. A tree downed on the tracks, and a few other minor
> malfunctions, but nothing too serious.
> 
> But it's true that in other occasions, snow also put the rail network down to
> their knees... why is that ? What makes the rail network so fragile today, while
> 40 years ago, they still were taking pride from the fact that trains would run
> safely and reliably in any kind of weather ?


In one word: switches. The Dutch network alone has 7000 and they're sensitive equipment. Snow (especially the sticky kind) is very good at jamming the electronics. That wasn't a problem 40 years ago because back then every station had a few guys with giant metal keys (and brooms when necessary) that moved all the switches around. These days, a switch in Vlissingen might be moved by a computer in Utrecht. When the electronics are messed up or when there's so much snow jammed between the switch that it can't move all the way to meet the other track; there's an error message and the signals go red, halting all the trains. 

Which is why Prorail is reducing the number of switches and slowly but surely installing more robust designs.


----------



## radamfi

On Christmas Day, I visited two of the stations that have gone fully gated, Almere Centrum and Almere Poort. I was using a HEMA day ticket which you print at home so I got to see if the barcode worked. At Almere Centrum, most if not all gates have barcode readers. At Almere Poort, only a couple did. I had no problems using the barcode to get in and out at both stations.

Earlier in the day I tried to get to Almere Poort, but just after leaving Weesp there was a huge lightening strike which prevented the train going any further. After a few minutes, we reversed back to Weesp. So I went to Leeuwarden via Amersfoort and Zwolle instead. I then went to Harlingen Haven and back, a line I hadn't done. I didn't realise that Arriva do their train announcements in Frisian as well as Dutch. Do the train staff have to speak Frisian?

It is a novelty for me to use the train on Christmas Day as in the UK there are no trains and only very few trains on only a few lines on 26 December. There were certainly a lot of people using the train on 25 December.


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## Astenaar

Wow, really no trains? How do people without a car travel on those days? I used to use the trains a lot with christmas, travelling between work, family and family in law. I was working parttime in healthcare back then, so was obliged to christmas shifts.


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## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: which Dutch stations have mid-point switches that allow two train-berth (like splitting platforms in a and b sectors)?


The more interesting question: Which stations have them and actually not use them anymore? Almelo comes to mind.


----------



## radamfi

Astenaar said:


> Wow, really no trains? How do people without a car travel on those days? I used to use the trains a lot with christmas, travelling between work, family and family in law. I was working parttime in healthcare back then, so was obliged to christmas shifts.


Most people in the UK without cars are forced to stay at home on 25 and 26 December, unless they know someone who can drive them, or pay very high taxi rates. Trains finish early on 24 December. There are also almost no local buses on 25 December, even in London. Most places don't have any buses on 26 December, or have a very limited service (much worse than Sunday service). The express bus companies National Express and Megabus have started running on 25 December in recent years but only between main cities and airports with higher than normal fares. These companies run more or less normally on 26 December.

Many places also have no or very few buses on 1 January. Scotland and North East England also has no trains on that day. In some part of the UK, the trains finish early like in NL on 31 December, but in London and South East England, there are extra trains after midnight and free transport in London between 2345 and 0430.

When you tell people in the UK that you are going to NL for Christmas to travel by train they are surprised that trains are running on 25 December.


----------



## radamfi

I'm not technically knowledgeable about signalling, but it seems like in the Netherlands when you have a signal fault, it means no trains until it is fixed. In the UK, if the signal fault is not on a junction, normally it means that all trains will stop at the signal, call the signalling centre or signal box, blow the train's horn, and then move slowly until the next signal. If the next signal is green, then the train can proceed normally. So an isolated signal fault that is not on a junction in the UK normally only makes a few minutes delay on a quiet line, and maybe 30 minutes delay on a busy line because of trains queuing.


----------



## Busfotodotnl

da_scotty said:


> I think these stations have them (based on sporenplan.nl) :
> 
> Zwolle, Den Bosch, Nijmegen, Venlo, Roermond, Uitgeest, Haarlem, Deventer, Hengelo, Almelo, Amersfoort, Rotterdam (1a/1b), Zutphen, Roosendaal, Sittard, Maastricht, Amsterdam CS, Leiden CS, Dordrecht, (and strictly speaking, Rotterdam Stadium)
> 
> Utrecht has them but there all being removed!


Image of a removed splitting section at Utrecht Central Station:








Source: nicospilt.com


----------



## Sunfuns

Just for the sake of argument let's assume than from now on Netherlands will have snowy winters with regular snow of all kinds from later December till early March. What would have to be done with switches to accommodate for that?


----------



## MrAronymous

Either make sure they get heated properly and still work, be replaced by 'winterproof' ones, or be removed.


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## Suburbanist

Today I went through Breda station. The building isn't even finished yet, and there are some water leaks that are staining the ceilings (above the bus bays). Hope they can fix the problem. 

Otherwise, I like how the station is turning out. When I had looked at the project drawings, I thought it was going to be underwhelming, so I'm positively surprised. 

There is just something I'm not sure: doesn't putting buses at the same level of trains, parallel to the platforms, worsen the air quality for passengers on the platforms? In Amsterdam, which uses a somehow similar design for its bus station, there is more separation between bus lanes and the train platforms.


----------



## mistertl

radamfi said:


> I'm not technically knowledgeable about signalling, but it seems like in the Netherlands when you have a signal fault, it means no trains until it is fixed. In the UK, if the signal fault is not on a junction, normally it means that all trains will stop at the signal, call the signalling centre or signal box, blow the train's horn, and then move slowly until the next signal. If the next signal is green, then the train can proceed normally. So an isolated signal fault that is not on a junction in the UK normally only makes a few minutes delay on a quiet line, and maybe 30 minutes delay on a busy line because of trains queuing.


It depends on the situation. On the main line, without switches/junctions, the driver will request permission to pass the signal at danger. The driver will have to drive 'on sight' until the train has passed the next signal. In case the next one is also faulty, the driver will continue with driving on sight until the next one, et cetera. 
When the signal is before a switch, the driver will get a so called 'aanwijzing StopTonend Sein'. The driver will have to fill in a form with the details regarding the path that has been selected by the traffic controller. With this form, the driver gets permission to pass the signal at danger.

The problem with the last option is that every train that has to pass the signal, is required to have that 'aanwijzing STS'. With one train an hour, it's not a problem. But when there are more than 15 trains an hour passing that signal, it is. At some point, a decision is made to repair the fault immediately, and for safety reasons, the tracks are taken out of service until the signal is repaired.


----------



## da_scotty

Suburbanist said:


> Today I went through Breda station. The building isn't even finished yet, and there are some water leaks that are staining the ceilings (above the bus bays). Hope they can fix the problem.


This will be done when the whole roof is finished (see the Dutch thread about this in the Noord-Brabant section). 



> Otherwise, I like how the station is turning out. When I had looked at the project drawings, I thought it was going to be underwhelming, so I'm positively surprised.


Except the weird location of the stations shops and stores, which are in a side-corridor of the station instead of the main tunnel.

The station does have a very clinical feel to it below ground though, above ground on platform level its stunning!


----------



## Suburbanist

da_scotty said:


> The station does have a very clinical feel to it below ground though, above ground on platform level its stunning!


Maybe it is a matter of taste, but I really likes the underground. It is airy enough, it has a post-industrial feel to it, cold colors. and very good looking floors. I wonder how it will age.


----------



## Wilhem275

Seems I will have to take a look there, after my exams are over... what about Tilburg, will it take long to get its final shape?


----------



## da_scotty

The shape won't change (monument), they will just add a tunnel!


----------



## AlexNL

Astenaar said:


> Wow, really no trains? How do people without a car travel on those days? I used to use the trains a lot with christmas, travelling between work, family and family in law. I was working parttime in healthcare back then, so was obliged to christmas shifts.


Really, almost no trains run in the UK during Christmas. On December 25th, not even Eurostar runs.

Network Rail took advantage of this by planning a lot of engineering works between Christmas and new year. Over 11.000 engineers are at work at over 2.000 sites!



radamfi said:


> I'm not technically knowledgeable about signalling, but it seems like in the Netherlands when you have a signal fault, it means no trains until it is fixed. In the UK, if the signal fault is not on a junction, normally it means that all trains will stop at the signal, call the signalling centre or signal box, blow the train's horn, and then move slowly until the next signal. If the next signal is green, then the train can proceed normally. So an isolated signal fault that is not on a junction in the UK normally only makes a few minutes delay on a quiet line, and maybe 30 minutes delay on a busy line because of trains queuing.


Signals can be overridden after permission by the signaller, but if a lot of trains pass by that specific signal it will quickly become too much for the signaller and the decision is made to fix the fault.

There's an exception to the "after permission" rule: if the signal is permissive, the driver will have to ask for permission only once. Permissive signals (P-seinen) are not controlled by a signaller but work on the presence of the train in the block which is guarded by the signal. Permissive signals are placed on the "vrije baan" inbetween stations.

If the permissive signals do not clear due to a fault, the driver asks for the signaller's permission to pass the first permissive signal he encounters. Once given, the driver is allowed to pass all permissive signals he encounters.

When driving past a red signal this always has to be done with a speed that is low enough to safely stop the train, should a vehicle still be present in the block. This is called "Rijden op zicht" (driving on sight).



Wilhem275 said:


> Seems I will have to take a look there, after my exams are over... what about Tilburg, will it take long to get its final shape?


The exterior design of Tilburg won't change much, the biggest changes will be the new, wider tunnel. The project is expected to be completed in june 2016.


----------



## Suburbanist

I was thinking here about major station reconstruction projects. In my opinion, Rotterdam Centraal has the best hall, Arnhem the best concourse and Breda the best platforms.


----------



## MrAronymous

You don't think the Utrecht concourse will be nicer? And to be honest I think the Breda platforms just look good, but it can't beat Arnhem with its gorgeous platform canopies and airy stairwells.


----------



## Suburbanist

MrAronymous said:


> You don't think the Utrecht concourse will be nicer? And to be honest I think the Breda platforms just look good, but it can't beat Arnhem with its gorgeous platform canopies and airy stairwells.


I'm not considering Utrecht since works are on an early stage, so it is difficult to get an impression.

Arnhem looks very nice, and feels nice as long as it isn't raining. I agree about the stairwells.


----------



## 3737

As of today at 26 stations the OV chipcard gates are closed.
A list:

Gates closed

Rotterdam Zuid
Rotterdam Alexander
Rotterdam Lombardijen
Barendrecht
Capelle Schollevaar
Zwijndrecht
Zoetermeer Oost
Voorschoten
Woerden
Culemborg
Houten
Zaltbommel
Amsterdam Sciencepark
Amsterdam Holendrecht
Nieuw-Vennep
Santpoort Noord
Beverwijk
Heiloo
Den Helder
Hoorn Kersenboogerd
Hoorn
Almere Centrum
Almere Poort
Breda Prinsenbeek
Best
Enschede

Partially closed

Rotterdam Centraal
Rotterdam Blaak
Amsterdam Zuid
Houten
Maassluis
Schiedam Nieuwland
Vlaardingen Centrum
Vlaardingen Oost
Zoetermeer
Amsterdam Bijlmer Arena
Schiedam Centrum
Gouda (zuidzijde)

Gates still open

Amsterdam Centraal
Amsterdam Amstel
Amsterdam RAI
Leiden
Helmond
Utrecht Overvecht
Roosendaal
Zaltbommel

No gates available

Den Haag Centraal
Den Haag HS
Rijswijk
Delft
Dordrecht
Gouda (noordzijde)
Utrecht Centraal
Amersfoort
Arnhem Centraal
Groningen
Schiphol

Source: metro (dutch)


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## AlexNL

Breda has been equipped with gates, but they're still open. I expect that they will remain open until the tunnel linking the main entrance (northern side) with the city center (southern side) is fully built.


----------



## Wilhem275

da_scotty said:


> The shape won't change (monument), they will just add a tunnel!





AlexNL said:


> The exterior design of Tilburg won't change much, the biggest changes will be the new, wider tunnel. The project is expected to be completed in june 2016.


I believed there was something bigger going on... ok, I won't miss much :lol:


----------



## da_scotty

AlexNL said:


> Breda has been equipped with gates, but they're still open. I expect that they will remain open until the tunnel linking the main entrance (northern side) with the city center (southern side) is fully built.


Same as Delft, in fact, you can see the lights of the new gates are already turned on in the new station!


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...to-contest-dutch-train-order.html?channel=529
> 
> *Alstom and Bombardier to contest Dutch train order*
> Tuesday, December 30, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _BOTH Alstom and Bombardier have initiated legal proceedings against Netherlands Railways (NS) over the direct award of an order for 60 Flirt EMUs to Stadler_
> 
> Despite running a public competitive tender for 118 Sprinter trains, which was won by CAF, NS announced its intention in November to order an additional 60 Sprinter EMUs without competitive tendering, stating that urgent and unforeseen circumstances would allow it to circumvent European Union legislation on competitive tendering for large equipment orders by public bodies, and enable it to negotiate a contract directly with Stadler for the trains.
> 
> This is the second time in a rather short period that NS has justified a major order without competitive tendering on the grounds of urgent and unforeseen circumstances. NS ordered class 186 Traxx locomotives directly from Bombardier – which are now being delivered - in the same way, however, there were no appeals from manufacturers or leasing companies that time


----------



## Coccodrillo

Why from Stadler instead from CAF? To have them more quickly?


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> Why from Stadler instead from CAF? To have them more quickly?


They just added more trains over an already fulfiled order, beyond the normal scope for extending a contract. NS wants to increase local services and it doesn't have rolling stock to do so. 

Same reason they fast-tracked orders of new locos for the unacceptably slow trains to be used on HSL services after the issues with the V250, but in this case the necessity for a replacement fit for traffic before 2020 was more evident as a somehow unforeseeable circumstance, compared to the increase in local services that motivated the STADLER order.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The photo of an SLT is misleading: these were built by Bombardier and Siemens, not by Stadler. There are no Stadler Flirts in the Netherlands (just some Stadler GTW by some private operators, not NS).


----------



## AlexNL

That is not completely true:
- FLIRT trains already run between Hamm, Düsseldorf and Venlo. Those sets are only capable of operating under 15 kV and are not allowed to go over 60 km/h in the Netherlands because they do not meet the latest crashwortiness standards. This is not a problem as the distance from the German border to Venlo station is only a few kilometers.
- FLIRT trains are on order for the Arnhem - Düsseldorf service that will be operated by Abellio from June 2017.
- For Gouda - Alphen a/d Rijn, Abellio has ordered FLIRT trains from Stadler as well. These should enter services from december 2016.

This explains the choice for Stadler FLIRTs by NSR: by the time they need them, the FLIRT should have been homologated for running in the Netherlands.


----------



## Suburbanist

Is there some particular story about how Connexion ended up being the sole operator of a minuscule fleet of Protos trains?

Protos in Amersfoort by bramwesterink, on Flickr


----------



## MrAronymous

Um, I guess they just won the tender?


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> Is there some particular story about how Connexion ended up being the sole operator of a minuscule fleet of Protos trains?


Yup... Connexxion was the first operator to order the Protos, but the factory went bankrupt by the time the 6th Protos was delivered. Furthermore, the 1st Protos could not be used as it was a prototype model which deviated from the further sets.

Nowadays Fahrzeugtechnik Dessau (FTD), the company that made the train, re-started and is selling a modernized version of the Protos. Connexxion intends to buy a few more of those trains.


----------



## Suburbanist

Tilburg Universiteit under snow before Christmas


----------



## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> Nowadays Fahrzeugtechnik Dessau (FTD), the company that made the train, re-started and is selling a modernized version of the Protos. Connexxion intends to buy a few more of those trains.


Now the story gets really weird: Originally Connexion wanted to buy the Protos prototype to expand their fleet. However while the set was being converted from Bo'2'+2'Bo to 2'Bo'+Bo'2', just like the rest of the fleet, FTD went bust.
FTD restarted but stopped selling the Protos, so Connexion ended up having to buy a GTW instead. But FTD went bust again and the current restart FTD started selling them again?

If they want to buy extra Protos, they could sell the GTW and buy some extra Protos, otherwise there would be 3 different types in their small fleet.


----------



## radamfi

Who actually owns the trains? The train companies themselves, the Government or province, or private leasing companies?


----------



## AlexNL

As far as I know, the majority of the rolling stock is owned by the operators and the rest by leasing companies. NS has its own company for that, NS Financial Services in Dublin. In the cities, tram and subway stock is usually owned by the city and not the operator.


----------



## Suburbanist

Which loco is this? When was the model retired from service? When have they changed the paint scheme to the current yellow and light blue one?









Source: Rob van der Rest website


----------



## MrAronymous

Spoortslag '70. Trams and buses of other companies were also painted yellow.


----------



## JB1981

Suburbanist said:


> Which loco is this? When was the model retired from service? When have they changed the paint scheme to the current yellow and light blue one? Source: Rob van der Rest website


As you can see on the nose, this is an 1100-series locomotive. Has been in active duty from the post-war electrification in the fifties through the eighties/nineties when they were replaced by the 1700-series I think.


----------



## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> Which loco is this? When was the model retired from service? When have they changed the paint scheme to the current yellow and light blue one?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Class_1100

Originally, the locs did not have this prominent nose like seen on the picture,
but their fronts were flat. Noses were added later as a security measure.
This picture must be quite rare, because, if I remember well, most locs, when
fitted with the noses, were repainted grey/yellow.

Those locs were based on the SNCF BB 8100 design.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_8100
Most NS locos were based on french designs.


----------



## Wilhem275

MarcVD said:


> Most NS locos were based on _horrible and outdated_ French designs.


Fixed :troll: :troll: :troll:


----------



## M-NL

Ok, I'll bite, but with 2 questions:

Which of the Alstom locos was outdated at time of acquisition?
Except for the 1100-series, what is so horrible with the other series?


----------



## artisanvapor

Nice pics very great place for travelling................


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> Ok, I'll bite, but with 2 questions:
> 
> Which of the Alstom locos was outdated at time of acquisition?
> Except for the 1100-series, what is so horrible with the other series?


Well the 1100 are basically a pre-war design.
But their french counterpart were outdated too.

As far as I know, both the 1300 and 1600 were fine machines at the time
they were put in service.


----------



## Wilhem275

M-NL said:


> Ok, I'll bite, but with 2 questions:
> 
> Which of the Alstom locos was outdated at time of acquisition?
> Except for the 1100-series, what is so horrible with the other series?


Nah, it's just an external design matter, and of course it's personal. I simply think that most of NS post-war material was not that aesthetically pleasant. Some looked very old, some looked just ugly. The flat liveries (which I actually like in its modern stage) didn't help the case.

The Koploper is a weird beast and was probably outstanding at the time (it still is impressive), but it's not something "beautiful".
The IRM was probably the first really modern train, had a very contemporary design in early '90s (and still looks young).

Now, I never completely appreciated Paul Arzens designs, but I can see why many people consider it so impressive. Apart from personal taste, the point is that in 1994 NS was still getting new machines with a design of 1964. A cool design of 1964, but still 30 years old...

Who takes the cake, IMHO, is the DDM... the first time I read it was a 1985 design I was surprised, it looked as old at least as the first French double deck coaches. At that design was still in production in 1998...
Interesting fact is that, with the revision process, it became one of the overall most interesting materials around, if not my favourite.

Oh, and the V250 is universally known as the butt-ugliest train ever  because it didn't already have enough problems :lol:


----------



## da_scotty

I suppose it has to do with the dutch attitude to "flashiness", the Dutch saying "Act normal, that's strange enough" is reflected in there somewhat modest train designs.

It's a miracle at all that the trains are bright yellow!


----------



## Wilhem275

That's the funny part: no way to get a fancy design, but 40 years of some of the less subtle liveries ever seen


----------



## Suburbanist

Older locos from the 1940s appear to look more Americanized in design.


----------



## Wilhem275

Also something from later years. Mat '54 and its evolutions was clearly inspired by the American streamliners of the 1930s.

Thanks for reminding this, I remember I noticed the same and we discussed this aspect years ago in this thread.
This is not the only American influx in the Dutch transports tradition, there were also some features in motorways planning and design, IIRC.

There must have been a direct cultural contamination, somewhere in Dutch history.


----------



## AlexNL

It's not that strange, shortly after World War II the Netherlands benefited from the Marshall Plan which was instated by the US Government. The railway system benefited of this as well, lots of the modernisation which occured post-WW2 is based upon American designs and technology.

The ATB safety system is based upon the Pulse code cab signaling as developed by the Union Switch and Signal corporation for the Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1920s. The class 2200 diesel locomotives were based on an American design from Baldwin and Westinghouse, and finally PCC trams were built for cities such as The Hague and Antwerp.


----------



## Wilhem275

PRR is exactly what I had in mind, talking of locomotives design. Think about the electric GG1 and the diesel E7...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog_nose

I would not be surprised to discover that people who worked for PRR was directly involved in the reconstruction program.


It is also true that many other European countries benefited from the Marshall Plan and had strong cultural contaminations, but the same signs are not so evident in their transport industries.
My guess is that at the time they had a national industry with a more consolidated tradition than the Dutch one, so there was less space to be filled with the American concepts.

For example, Italy and Germany already developed their own safety systems before the war.


----------



## Wilhem275

That's a widespread problem today in Europe: former monopolists gained independence and thus follow their internal interests, but States are still believing those operators' suggestions like they are a reliable neutral advisor.

This is a fault of weak Ministries, in my opinion, who chose to dump a part of their political responsibilities (mainly because the general public doesn't know or doesn't care about these dynamics).


----------



## MrAronymous

AlexNL said:


> NS claims they need 8 years to order some 200 km/h trains. And the State believed them!:nuts:


I'm guessing it's also a funding issue. Pretty sure if it were up to NS they'd have ordered new trains yesterday.


----------



## AlexNL

MrAronymous said:


> I'm guessing it's also a funding issue. Pretty sure if it were up to NS they'd have ordered new trains yesterday.


NS funds the trains themselves, they did actually start with a tendering procedure. 

The timelines are more or less as follows:
- 2014: start tendering procedure
- 2016: contract awarding
- 2019: testing
- 2020: entry into service

NS has only specified the most important aspects: 200 kph top speed, number of seats and desired train lengths, suitable for operation on the Dutch rail network and in Dutch weather conditions. They want a framework contract and would also like to have an option for trains that can run in Germany and Belgium.


----------



## radamfi

What speed does Thalys go between Schiphol and Rotterdam?


----------



## Wilhem275

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I've seen videos in which they keep 250 km/h (also in the Southern part), so I figured that they'll go faster only in case of delays.

It's a guess, but it's also a common practice in many HS systems.


----------



## AlexNL

On the northern section, a Thalys train can only maintain its top speed (300 km/h) for about 2 minutes before it has to start decelerating again. So it's just timetabled for a slightly lower speed (helps cut the energy bill, too) and they can make it up if the train has left Amsterdam or Schiphol late.


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> And there's your problem.
> 
> The horrible thing is... back in 2013/2014, after the Fyra collapse, NS managed to persuade the government that it's not possible to run 200 km/h before 2021.
> 
> NS claims they need 8 years to order some 200 km/h trains. And the State believed them!:nuts:


All they would have needed to do is ask Siemens to build a few more Railjet sets. These could have been running by now even...

Would have been perfect for this service.


----------



## M-NL

Exactly. And realise a RailJet costs less then 10 million euro per set, compared to 22 million for the AB V250 and about 30 million for a Velaro or AGV. However one small glitch: By the time they realised a RailJet could have done new EU TSIs didn't allow certification of the Taurus in new countries anymore. 

And for those services continuing to Brussels, consider this: only on the 161km stretch between Rotterdam and Antwerp higher speeds will give you a real advantage. On the Schiphol to Rotterdam part 230 km/h would have been enough and between Antwerp and Brussels speeds are limited to 160 km/h anyway.


----------



## AlexNL

M-NL said:


> Exactly. And realise a RailJet costs less then 10 million euro per set, compared to 22 million for the AB V250 and about 30 million for a Velaro or AGV. However one small glitch: By the time they realised a RailJet could have done new EU TSIs didn't allow certification of the Taurus in new countries anymore.


The Vectron, the successor to the Taurus locomotive, does meet those TSIs.


----------



## Theijs

Previously the Eindhoven Airport ticket was presented: http://www.spoordeelwinkel.nl/produ...ief09feb&ns_linkname=eindhoven-airport#229-05
Now there is as well the Amsterdam Schiphol Airport ticket:
http://www.gvb.nl/Documents/att/English.html


----------



## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> The Vectron, the successor to the Taurus locomotive, does meet those TSIs.


But contrary to the Taurus the fastest 'standard' Vectron is limited to 200 km/h, thus a 230 km/h version will be a more expensive 'special'.

Anyway that's all theoretical, because the Netherlands has chosen to interpret the EU preference for train sets very literal, resulting in pretty much requiring EMU/DMUs and a dislike in the use of fixed consist locomotive with carriages. Also the regulations for speeds over 230 km/h can only be met with EMUs.


----------



## Maarten Otto

radamfi said:


> What speed does Thalys go between Schiphol and Rotterdam?


Slotted at 300 km/h and operated as such.


----------



## Maarten Otto

K_ said:


> All they would have needed to do is ask Siemens to build a few more Railjet sets. These could have been running by now even...
> 
> Would have been perfect for this service.


Yes and no.

They have indeed looked at that option and confirmed that it was way to expansive in operation. This fleet would be even smaller then the V250 fleet as it would be absurd to run it to Belgium. The smaller a fleet is the higher their operational costs. This is why airlines try to gain the highest fleet commonality available. If your a Airbus airline flying the A320 family it wouldn't cross your mind to lease or even buy a Boeing 73x. You stick with what you got as it is way cheaper, even if that means flying less routes or suspending the introduction of services for a while.

Same applies to trains. A bigger your fleet equals cheaper spare parts, staff training costs and facilities hence why the first series of IRM stock could alse be replaced by ICNG


----------



## AlexNL

M-NL said:


> But contrary to the Taurus the fastest 'standard' Vectron is limited to 200 km/h, thus a 230 km/h version will be a more expensive 'special'.


Siemens has the designs and specifications for that. However, they've decided not to build any 230 km/h Vectrons: it would require a reinforced cab structure and a different kind of bogie. Given that locomotives are mostly in demand by freight operators or used on conventional rail, the demand for a 230 km/h locomotive is low.

However, Siemens can start building almost straight away if a customer shows up for a Vectron230.


----------



## Surel

AlexNL said:


> The Vectron, the successor to the Taurus locomotive, does meet those TSIs.


And what about this beauty .


----------



## Theijs

Surel said:


> And what about this beauty .


I fear NS will stay with Traxx loco's, and not experiment with winter proof Skoda locs.


----------



## Surel

^^
They should be doing 190 km/h with a double deck. Max 200 km/h. I have no idea of its compatibility with the Dutch network.
http://rail-sim.de/forum/index.php/...n-Skoda-Doppelstockzüge-für-DB-Regio-München/
http://www.skoda.cz/de/press/zum-do...66E3341EBFAA9DBC85EA8B064122BF44/resource.pdf


----------



## K_

Maarten Otto said:


> They have indeed looked at that option and confirmed that it was way to expansive in operation. This fleet would be even smaller then the V250 fleet as it would be absurd to run it to Belgium.


Why would it be absurd to run them to Belgium? Especially given that the Siemens Vectron is already approved for Belgium.


----------



## AlexNL

K_ said:


> given that the Siemens Vectron is already approved for Belgium.


It is not.

The HLE 18 electric locomotive is *not* a Vectron, it's a ES64U3 (ES64U4 without the 15 kV installation).


----------



## DingeZ

M-NL said:


> But contrary to the Taurus the fastest 'standard' Vectron is limited to 200 km/h, thus a 230 km/h version will be a more expensive 'special'.
> 
> Anyway that's all theoretical, because the Netherlands has chosen to interpret the EU preference for train sets very literal, resulting in pretty much requiring EMU/DMUs and a dislike in the use of fixed consist locomotive with carriages. Also the regulations for speeds over 230 km/h can only be met with EMUs.


The use of trains sets in the Netherlands has nothing to do with the EU. It is all because train sets are much easier and faster to couple and uncouple. This makes it possible to lengthen/shorten trains 'on the fly', which happens regularly.


----------



## Coccodrillo

How it looked like above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMsOCpv2Pho (from minute 10)

What is the concrete structure on the right around at minute 16? It looks like a new bridge to replace this one one (and maybe also the level crossing), is it correct? If not, are there plans to close this level crossing?


----------



## Sunfuns

I assume they will now proceed to demolish the old route and station. Is that so?


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> How it looked like above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMsOCpv2Pho (from minute 10)
> 
> What is the concrete structure on the right around at minute 16? It looks like a new bridge to replace this one one (and maybe also the level crossing), is it correct? If not, are there plans to close this level crossing?


In Netherlands, it is not allowed to have 4-track level crossings so they are raising the bridge there, and they will probably depress the road a bit as well, I think.


----------



## AlexNL

Sunfuns said:


> I assume they will now proceed to demolish the old route and station. Is that so?


The station building and possibly a part of platform 1 will remain, as the station building is a monument. It's now planned to become a restaurant, and the former platform will become a terrace.


----------



## MrAronymous

Haha. No, of course not. Have you looked at the old station? It's a jewel.
They're now going to demolish the viaduct and old rail tracks. Then the last part of the municipal building can be finished and the western tunnel can be completed (with 2 tracks and a plaform in it). Next to that they will make a parking garage with a canal on top. 

@Coccodrillo It's the start of the future doubling of the tracks. The Amsterdam-Dordrecht route will be fully 4-tracked in the future. The section between The Hague and Rotterdam is still 2-tracked. I suppose the location you pointed at will become a viaduct of some sort

Here you can see a panorama visualiation of different angles of what it will look like when done.

http://www.spoorzonedelft.nl/ is the project website for anyone wondering.


----------



## da_scotty

Coccodrillo said:


> How it looked like above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMsOCpv2Pho (from minute 10)
> 
> What is the concrete structure on the right around at minute 16? It looks like a new bridge to replace this one one (and maybe also the level crossing), is it correct? If not, are there plans to close this level crossing?


I Think it might be the DSM industrial tail track. DSM (yeast production) lost it's railway connection during construction but it should be returned, that's also the track seen diverging to the right just before the tunnel and viaduct line converge.


----------



## AlexNL

MrAronymous said:


> The Amsterdam-Dordrecht route will be fully 4-tracked in the future. The section between The Hague and Rotterdam is still 2-tracked. I suppose the location you pointed at will become a viaduct of some sort


Almost. Delft Zuid - Schiedam will remain 2 tracks.

As the Hoekse Lijn will be linked to the subway network of Rotterdam, trains can use the former Hoekse Lijn track, but it is yet to be seen how ProRail will utilize this to make 4-track use of Schiedam - Rotterdam effective. Right now, the Hoekse Lijn-tracks lead to platform 1 in Rotterdam.


----------



## MrAronymous

Momo1435 said:


> 2.
> 
> IMG_3882 by Momo1435, on Flickr


Fun fact, the lady in the white coat is the head architect. I'm pretty jealous you got to 'meet' her. 

@AlexNL; yeah I already thought of it after I posted. In a video of a tour of the new station a guy working for Spoorzone Delft said they will put the signals between Delft-Zuid and Schiedam closer together, so more trains will be able to run.


----------



## Surel

MrAronymous said:


> Here you can see a panorama visualiation of different angles of what it will look like when done.
> 
> http://www.spoorzonedelft.nl/ is the project website for anyone wondering.


Thank you! Very nice project indeed.

Would you know what is the costs just for the rail infrastructure without all other development? I have just skimmed the page and they say the total budget is over € 1 bln, the total tunnel length should be 2.3 km.


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> The station building and possibly a part of platform 1 will remain, as the station building is a monument. It's now planned to become a restaurant, and the former platform will become a terrace.


It would be really cool if they left a piece of track and parked a few old railcars there. How about a few old restaurant cars for example.


----------



## da_scotty

Surel said:


> Thank you! Very nice project indeed.
> 
> Would you know what is the costs just for the rail infrastructure without all other development? I have just skimmed the page and they say the total budget is over € 1 bln, the total tunnel length should be 2.3 km.


450 million I believe!


----------



## Wilhem275

Surel said:


> Would you have some track schemes with distances of the rails before and after, description of the project, and some costs calculations? Thank you.


By rails distances you mean how wide is the space between tracks, or how long the railway is?
The overal lenght is almost identical, the new underground path is perfectly parallel to the old viaduct.


----------



## Crownsteler

Am I the only one btw who thinks the entrance into the bicycle garage is rather dubious? A bit of rain and the whole tunnel floods...

Anybody know how the migigated the risk of flooding?


----------



## da_scotty

The whole water/canal system in the Netherlands is regulated, rain is so often that it doesn't really effect the water table much. I row/coach on the rivers in Delft and the water level (except in summer) rarely goes way up. If there's a lot of rain they open a sluice elsewhere (usually near a main river) and the water level drops.

Where in the Netherlands, flooding mitigation is step 1 in a building progress.

On a side note, the Tunnel does act as water barrier, this used to be the case anyway as the ground underneath the tunnel is of a different material then the surrounding clay, which created a water-break.


----------



## Surel

Wilhem275 said:


> By rails distances you mean how wide is the space between tracks, or how long the railway is?
> The overal lenght is almost identical, the new underground path is perfectly parallel to the old viaduct.


I meant the length of the new alignment. I found it on the project page already. 2.3 km.


----------



## Crownsteler

da_scotty said:


> The whole water/canal system in the Netherlands is regulated, rain is so often that it doesn't really effect the water table much. I row/coach on the rivers in Delft and the water level (except in summer) rarely goes way up. If there's a lot of rain they open a sluice elsewhere (usually near a main river) and the water level drops.
> 
> Where in the Netherlands, flooding mitigation is step 1 in a building progress.
> 
> On a side note, the Tunnel does act as water barrier, this used to be the case anyway as the ground underneath the tunnel is of a different material then the surrounding clay, which created a water-break.


I know, I'm Dutch. That is why I find it so bizar. It seems like such an obvious weakness in such an important piece of infrastructure. While we haven't had flooding in a while now, and of course the water level is well regulated, I'm really curious what kind of risk assement they did on it.


----------



## Slagathor

C'mon, they figured out how to do this in the 17th century when Amsterdam gained its canals. It's not exactly new science.


----------



## MrAronymous

To be honest, there's more dangerous things surrounding the bicycle garage than the water canal itself. Like.. there not being any barriers (not even a curb) when you go upwards to the south. The bike path is directly next to the canal and you could easily drive straight into it. I'm not an advocate of fencing off everything at all, but this situation just seems dangerous. (considering there's even a lot of people who even drive into bright coloured bollards in daytime) They could've extrended the small wall that exists down below in front of the garage a little upwards just to the upper quay level.


----------



## M-NL

*Tilburg accident*

Can anybody shed some light on this?:
When I look at the pictures it looks like the accident happened here. The passenger train drove from the southernmost orange track onto the black track where unfortunately a freight train was parked, which unfortunately had a filled tankcar at the end.

I don't understand why a passenger train would use this track, because it only started slightly to the east just after the station and already ends slightly further to the west at Tilburg University. Anybody travelling this stretch that can confirm it is used by passenger trains?

First impression: The passenger train started against a red signal and because the route to the middle or northern orange track wasn't set yet it would follow the exact route of the freight train did and ran into it. However that is unlikely because the conductor is not allowed to send the train off without a safe signal indication, the driver is supposed to double check that and pretty much all controlled signals are fitted with ATB-VV to prevent SPADs (but the mat'64 train set may not be, I'm not sure). That in turn suggests that they had a clear signal and that one of two switches may have failed. The switch leading up to the southern orange track is possible but unlikely because the driver would have had plenty of time to react after being sent to an unusual track, but didn't, suggesting he either expected it or this route isn't uncommon. This in turn leads me to suggest that the cause could be a failure of the switch from the orange to the black track. If the train passed that switch at a speed of 40 km/h or over the roughly 75 meters to the end of the freight train would have made it nearly impossible to stop in time.


----------



## Suburbanist

M-NL said:


> I don't understand why a passenger train would use this track, because it only started slightly to the east just after the station and already ends slightly further to the west at Tilburg University. Anybody travelling this stretch that can confirm it is used by passenger trains?


This is very close to home, and I can confirm the Weert/Eindhoven-Tilburg Universiteit trains do use the third all the time, but rarely the fourth. Usually, an IC direction Breda and this Sprinter direction Tilburg Unviersiteit (final destination) depart almost together from Tilbrug station, then the Sprinter immediately cross the main Breda=> Tilburg track and travel slowly until its berth on Tilburg Universiteit.


It is also common to have freight trains parked around there, sometimes for quite a long time while they probably waith a path on the busy line to Rotterdam. Sometimes these trains are parked on the third track I think, I don't understand exactly why.


----------



## da_scotty

In the Dutch section it was suspected that there was a train (class 1600) shunting, due to the low speeds of both trains the security overides failed, causing both trains to be on the same track. (ATB doesn't work below 40kph).


----------



## Suburbanist

ATB really needs to go away.


----------



## MrAlpine

M-NL said:


> Can anybody shed some light on this?:
> When I look at the pictures it looks like the accident happened here. The passenger train drove from the southern most orange track onto the black track where unfortunately a freight train was parked, which unfortunately had a filled tankcar at the end.
> 
> I don't understand why a passenger train would use this track, because it only started slightly to the east just after the station and already ends slightly further to the west at Tilburg University. Anybody travelling this stretch that can confirm it is used by passenger trains?


I have travelled this route for four and a half years now and I can confirm, just like Suburbanist, that the third track (counted from the North) is used all the time by the sprinter-service between Weert and Tilburg University. This track is used in both directions. The fourth track is only rarely used by passenger trains, most of the time for a procedure called 'roestrijden'.



Suburbanist said:


> Sometimes these trains are parked on the third track I think, I don't understand exactly why.


Well, the pictures show the collision occured just after the passenger train had switched from track 3 to track 4. Track 4 is ordinarily not used by passenger trains.

What might have happened, although is not more than a speculation, is that the train driver either missed a red signal or drove through a green signal, while the switch had been broken. The first case might seem most likely, since it is standard practice for the sprinter-service to Tilburg University to leave Tilburg Central Station on a yellow signal. With regard to a switch failure, you would expect the train driver to see that, since the speed limit on this particular track is no more than 40 km/h (it is secured by dwergseinen only).


----------



## AlexNL

I am putting my money on a SPAD. The last signal passed by that Sprinter train is not protected by ATB-Vv and given the low speeds used on the approach towards Tilburg University (where this train uses a dead end track), ATB-EG would most likely not have been able to prevent the accident from occurring.

Given the time of day during which the accident happened, it might have been possible that the driver was blinded by the sun and hence did not observe the red aspect until it was too late.


----------



## MrAlpine

Brabant Dagblad, the largest news paper of the province of North-Brabant, has reported that the train driver of the passenger train from Friday's accident drove through a red signal. This is proven by an email sent by ProRail, the company that owns all Dutch rail infrastructure, to some Members of the Dutch Parliament. Eight passengers have suffered from minor injuries.


----------



## M-NL

What could have happened if it had been a freight train with brakes in the G setting instead of a passenger train with EP brakes?
The assessment by Prorail that the signal protecting this section didn't need ATB-VV was clearly flawed.


----------



## radamfi

Can you buy a RET one hour ticket (€3) from Den Haag CS for use on the metro line to Rotterdam?


----------



## Theijs

radamfi said:


> Can you buy a RET one hour ticket (€3) from Den Haag CS for use on the metro line to Rotterdam?


Yes, RET machine is situated at platform 12.


----------



## dimlys1994

Photo of new Barneveld Zuid station, opened on 2 February 2015. Taken from Wikipedia:


----------



## MrAlpine

Omroep Brabant has reported that the signal the train driver from past weeks' train crash drove through, will be replaced by a more advanced one. With the newer version, called ATB-vv, trains that drive through a red signal with under 40 km/h will also be stopped.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Just switch to ERTMS already. ATB-vv is money wasted that could be spent on ERTMS right away.


----------



## M-NL

Though you're 100% right, you want improved safety now, not in a few years. ATB-VV can do that pretty much directly, ERTMS takes 'a bit longer'. 

Even worse: ERTMS seems to remain a lot of talk and no actual action, because they keep on focussing on the difficult stuff, even though the solution is already there: Using GPRS instead of CSD on big station yards. They are hesitant because L2 on big yards hasn't been done before anywhere. One good decision was made though: first equip all rolling stock and after that the infrastructure, so you don't need dual signalling.


----------



## oslogospelchoir

dimlys1994 said:


> Photo of new Barneveld Zuid station, opened on 2 February 2015. Taken from Wikipedia:


Wow. Let's make an architectural statement...just not sure what it is.


----------



## M-NL

The gateway arch to the platform, what else would it be :lol:


----------



## oslogospelchoir

M-NL said:


> The gateway arch to the platform, what else would it be :lol:


 why? did it need one?


----------



## Silly_Walks

What did you want them to do? Waste money on a proper roof?

No, no, random arches are the way to go.


----------



## Maarten Otto

A homage to the chicken barn.....


----------



## Suburbanist

An electrical problem brought chaos to traffic to, from and around Amsterdam today.


----------



## Weissenberg

Suburbanist said:


> The designs of new Dutch stations are always interesting. Arnhem, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Dronten, Breda, Delft all look very nice.


True, though I think the main hall in Rotterdam is a bit out of proportions. When you enter it from the platforms the effect is definitely jaw-dropping, but then you go to town and you're like "meh".


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> An electrical problem brought chaos to traffic to, from and around Amsterdam today.


To call a complete power grid failure with impact on 3 provinces 'an electrical problem' is a bit of an understatement.

What's bad though, is that after power had been restored NS was totally unable to restore any kind of service. They should have immediately dropped the illusion to restart running according to the time table and simply settle for if-it-can-run-run it.

That's the main problem NS faces today: As long as everything is running close to normal everything is controlled automatically by computers. Once it goes south and the computers give up, humans have to take over and several recent incidents prove they don't know how to do that any more.


----------



## Slagathor

Aahh childhood memories.


----------



## 3737

Silly_Walks said:


> Why will they be reactivated?


It is explained in this Dutch rail magazine (PDF).

For non dutch readers it says:
HSL logistics has only 1 locomotive at the moment (Ex NS1832, the checkerboard one).
They were searching for 2 new electric locomotives for the dutch network only due to growing demands.
The Dutch railways don't want to sell any 1800 to third parties no more.
Most of the 1700's (which are on sale) are in a poor condition and they miss vital parts.
Begin this year Werkgroep Loc 1501 (which owns the 1304 and 1315) came in contact with HSL.

The 1300's got their last big overhaul in 1996 and were decommissioned in the year 2000. The 1304 was placed in a shed near Blerick where it still sits as of today.








Link

The 1315 was used till 2009 and in 2013 the 1315 was moved to Horb am Neckar, Germany to the Eisenbahn Erlebniswelt.








Link

Begin April a delegation of HSL went to Horb to inspect the 1315.
The 1315 was a in condition that met above expectations.
The 1315 will be activated first due to its good condition. If the 1315 meets the expectations of HSL the 1304 will be reactivated. The 1304 has some traction problems thus needs to be fixed before it can be activated.
The locomotives will be repainted probably in the brown HSL livery used in Germany.









Link

I personally hope that they will use a color scheme similar to the NS1218 which looks a lot like the old livery only in a different color.








Link









Link


----------



## Suburbanist

I saw an horizontal LED panel along the lining of one of Den Bosch station platforms. Apparently it is used to point the position of doors for people waiting the train, as the platforms are quite long (divided in A, B and some trains using central part (A+B)). Is that a pilot program or something we could expect seeing in other stations that have divided platforms such as Amsterdam Centraal or Deventer?

I also used rode some DDZ trains recently (usually, this rolling stock is not used on the services I use on a weekly basis). I noticed the seats are shedding their cover, the fabric fading fast and it looks already worn out (much more than the 2009 VIRM sets). Apparently some toilets are out of commission because the door closing mechanism is not working.

Was this just bad luck or a general problem with these train sets (bad execution quality)?


----------



## MrAronymous

It's a pilot program. They have installed sensors on the trains to measure how full each carriage is and then they display it on the LED screens so people will know where to line up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZKx6QGTNY


----------



## Silly_Walks

It does/did indeed show how full each carriage is, and where the doors will be.


----------



## Suburbanist

MrAronymous said:


> It's a pilot program. *They have installed sensors on the trains to measure how full each carriage is* and then they display it on the LED screens so people will know where to line up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZKx6QGTNY


Does this mean all that feedback passengers can give via Reisplaner Xtra app is useless therefore? I always make an effort to click on the smiles and the seat info there :lol:


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> Does this mean all that feedback passengers can give via Reisplaner Xtra app is useless therefore? I always make an effort to click on the smiles and the seat info there :lol:


_You_ can stop doing that. Other people's brains are too complex to be read by infrared sensors, however, so they should continue using the Reisplaner Xtra app :lol:


----------



## DingeZ

MrAronymous said:


> It's a pilot program. They have installed sensors on the trains to measure how full each carriage is and then they display it on the LED screens so people will know where to line up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZKx6QGTNY


No, that was the previous pilot, which has been cancelled due to costly installation of the sensors.
This time the display only point out the location of the doors, first/second class, silent areas, bike areas, etc. The information just comes from InfoPlus (and can be seen by anyone at sites like these). It is quite likely this will succeed.


----------



## Surel

MrAronymous said:


> It's a pilot program. They have installed sensors on the trains to measure how full each carriage is and then they display it on the LED screens so people will know where to line up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyZKx6QGTNY


What kind of sensors?

I always dreamed of the day when the doors will contain contactless chip scanners and all that hassle with check in or check out or any other sort of tickets would be solved.


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## Silly_Walks

Surel said:


> What kind of sensors?


Infrared.


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## K_

Surel said:


> What kind of sensors?
> 
> I always dreamed of the day when the doors will contain contactless chip scanners and all that hassle with check in or check out or any other sort of tickets would be solved.


That's what the Swiss Railways are working on. In stead of "Check in-Check out" they want a system with "Be in, Be out". It will even detect whether you're travelling first or second class, so you can instantly upgrade if you want...


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> That's what the Swiss Railways are working on. In stead of "Check in-Check out" they want a system with "Be in, Be out". It will even detect whether you're travelling first or second class, so you can instantly upgrade if you want...


Near-field communication is promising, but the Swiss have been hanging on this idea, since I first read it, for at least 8 years and counting, without a viable scalable solution that would allow them to get rid of 19th century paper technology. 

Netherlands did the right thing, using RFID as a system to allow phasing out paper, which was desperately needed. When something else comes, we can upgrade.


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## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> Netherlands did the right thing, using RFID as a system to allow phasing out paper, which was desperately needed. When something else comes, we can upgrade.


Except the implementation sucks compared to the Octopus in Hong Kong, and Translink Systems doesn't seem to be too interested in improving it.


----------



## Surel

K_ said:


> That's what the Swiss Railways are working on. In stead of "Check in-Check out" they want a system with "Be in, Be out". It will even detect whether you're travelling first or second class, so you can instantly upgrade if you want...


I could come up with quite many solutions that would recognize a person entering a vehicle, that would be able to count people onboard etc... But charging them is problematic. You can't do that, I guess, without the wireless chips.

A system that would check the number of passengers on board and compared it to the number of paying passengers would be thus feasible. This would eliminate the need for inspectors and make free riding almost impossible.

The best technology would indeed be combined with a smartphone.

Anyway. I also always dreamt about a Smart ID Card, that would be operated as a sort of smart phone and combine all your cards etc with apps.

Of course, personal security problems arise with such solutions...


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## AlexNL

Silly_Walks said:


> Except the implementation sucks compared to the Octopus in Hong Kong, and Translink Systems doesn't seem to be too interested in improving it.


In all fairness, improvements _are_ being worked on but it goes very slowly.


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## Suburbanist

There have been several improvements to the OV-Chipkaart systmem since its introduction:

- transfers between operators now don't charge the "instaptarief" twice (note this doesn't apply to NS, since NS doesn't have a "instappentarief")

- there is a simpler process to file "missed check-outs"

- there is an easy 10-sec process to activate the "samenreiskorting" (discount for people travelling together with a pass holder)

- NS machines now accept most foreign cards (huge improvements for occasional user)

- you can check-in on local transit with any balance above zero (instead of above € 4 formerly)

- gates have been installed

Major items on a to-do list regarding the OV-Chipkaart are, in my opinion:

- solving the NS + other train operator transfer issue, eliminating the transfer totems

- allow travel with any balance above € 0,00 on NS as well

- create some automated machines, to be put in airports and other key stations, where people can return anonymous OV-Chipkaarts and get a refund in cash for any low balance (say, below € 15)


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## AlexNL

In my opinion gates aren't an improvement:cheers1:


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## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> In my opinion gates aren't an improvement:cheers1:


Let's agree to disagree on that.

---------------------------

I've been surprised to see some VRIM sets used on Sprinter services near my home station (Tilburg Universiteit). That is an enormous improvement over the crappy Plan-V sets used before, so I won't ever complain. Do they have spare VIRM sets for this, though?

Also, while they are nice for sitting, they are not very good for quick boarding, especially the older sets that have a central space reserved for a trolley cart, the SLT are much better with their wider doors and all-flat interior.


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## AlexNL

VIRM is totally unsuited for Sprinter services as they accelerate way too slowly, and as a consequence they're having a hard time keeping to the timetable. These services are usually worked by SLT, SGM or Plan V sets because of their characteristics, but it sometimes happens that such a set is unavailable (e.g. due to a defect) while a VIRM set is standing idle in a yard, so then NS transport control opts to use the VIRM instead.

It's better to have a train running late by a few minutes than not having a train running at all.


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## M-NL

The problem with VIRM is its bad power to weight ratio coupled with to few powered axles. Only 2 axles per 2 coaches are powered. When you start coupling sets it gets even worse, because total power of the consist is limited because of overhead wire limitations.
The overhead wire system limitation is really starting to be problem, which is why they are considering a change to either 3kVDC or 25kVAC. Unfortunately 3kV is the main candidate at the moment, not because it's better, only because it's cheaper.


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## Silly_Walks

M-NL said:


> The overhead wire system limitation is really starting to be problem, which is why they are considering a change to either 3kVDC or 25kVAC. Unfortunately 3kV is the main candidate at the moment, not because it's better, only because it's cheaper*.


*cheaper in the short term, not in the long term, as a study showed.


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## Suburbanist

This is how the train indicator panel in Den Bosch looks like in daytime


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## Suburbanist

Two old rail travel vintage panels found in an Amsterdam restaurant









.


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## Wilhem275

(was referred to the panel in Den Bosch)

Are the arrows meant to indicate the direction of travel?


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## Suburbanist

And two pics of the V250, a train who could have changed the history of Dutch rail transport if everything had gone as planned :sad:









.


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## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> And two pics of the V250, a train who could have changed the history of Dutch rail transport if everything had gone as planned :sad:




:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Sopomon

The interior looks like that of a cheap 90's discotheque


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## AlexNL

The level of comfort was more or less equal to that of the Sprinter fleet.


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## Slagathor

A friend of mine rode one of them between Rotterdam and Antwerp. He said it was a bit like rolling down a hill in a tumble dryer: lots of noise, shaking and a general feeling of significant discomfort.


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## DingeZ

Silly_Walks said:


> *cheaper in the short term, not in the long term, as a study showed.


Conversion to 25kV is highly problematic. Large modifications are necessary for many lines, which includes many construction works lasting for at least a week each. Furthermore, the point to switch is very complex. Either the lines need to be converted in sequence, which requires many current change points, making the system very complex. Switching the entire network at once requires a total closure of the system for at least a week (and probably a month). This would a complete disaster.


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## Slagathor

^^ I don't know about disaster, it's all in the planning. Zeeland went without any train service for over a month a few years ago and it went alright.

If we announce today that in July 2016, there will be no trains for a month, people would plan around it. Maybe we could change the school vacations for that one year as well, make sure all the schools are closed from the last week of June. Give people the opportunity to go on holiday abroad.

That, of course, is a separate issue from whether 25kV is desirable.


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## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> ^^ I don't know about disaster, it's all in the planning. Zeeland went without any train service for over a month a few years ago and it went alright.
> 
> If we announce today that in July 2016, there will be no trains for a month, people would plan around it. Maybe we could change the school vacations for that one year as well, make sure all the schools are closed from the last week of June. Give people the opportunity to go on holiday abroad.
> 
> That, of course, is a separate issue from whether 25kV is desirable.


Not to be preposterous, but the line to Middleburg is an end-line, parallel to a not-so-congested highway. This is very different than closing lines in the Randstad.

The positive thing is that most lines in the Randstad have viable detours to accommodate at least half the traffic, a bit more if they sacrifice Sprinter-only stations to keep major services live. 

---------------------------------

where is the exact point on HSL-Zuid where the change happens in Hooffdorp, Rotterdam and Rotterdam Lombardijen?


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## AlexNL

Slagathor said:


> A friend of mine rode one of them between Rotterdam and Antwerp. He said it was a bit like rolling down a hill in a tumble dryer: lots of noise, shaking and a general feeling of significant discomfort.


I can confirm that. Especially in the "Groeneharttunnel" the train shook horribly.


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## Suburbanist

C'mon, it was not that bad. It was not as stable as a TGV, but it did the job in the few weeks it was in service before the snow incident.


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## AlexNL

I do think it was bad. Of course, it was well within the limits of what one assume to be safe, but comfortable? No, not at all. The train shook and vibrated way too much for a train that was built in the 21st century!


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ine-extension-allocated-E88m.html?channel=522
> 
> *Funding approved for Utrecht - Leidsche Rijn line*
> Thursday, May 28, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _DUTCH secretary of state for infrastructure Mrs Wilma Mansveld announced on May 27 that the Dutch government will allocate €88m towards the construction of a new line from Utrecht Central to Leidsche Rijn, a major new housing development west of the city_
> 
> Once complete, Netherlnds Railways (NS) Sprinter services from The Hague and Rottderam to Gouda and Utrecht will be extended to Leidsche Rijn. Frequencies on the route will be increased from four to six trains per hour
> 
> ...


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## MrAronymous

Uh, there already is a line to Leidsche Rijn. The €88m will go toward doublinging of the tracks, including a new bridge across a major canal.


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## Wilhem275

It took me a good minute to understand what the heck they're talking about :lol: those Sprinters supposed to be extended to Leidsche Rijn _past_ Utrecht icard:

The matter is the doubling of the Woerden - Utrecht line between Utrecht Leidsche Rijn and Utrecht Centraal. This 1,5 km gap was the last part left with two tracks, probably because of the Leidsche Rijn canal crossing.

Utrecht Leidsche Rijn is a local stop between Utrecht Centraal and Den Haag, already served by the Sprinters Woerden - Utrecht (and skipped by the Sprinters Den Haag - Utrecht). So at the moment the frequency is 2 tph.
I guess the Woerden - Utrecht service will be doubled, and the all Sprinters will have to stop there.

Question: when will all these services be connected with the Sprinters towards Geldermalsen, to create the suburban service of Utrecht?


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## Theijs

DingeZ said:


> No, June (just checked, June 1st) is the date for just that fly-over. The completion for the quad-tracking to Amsterdam Zuid will take at least until 2016.


indeed, I just saw the IC-B using the new fly over. Now they continue with quad-tracking to Amsterdam Zuid and further to the Y at Amsterdam Bijlmer Arena / Duivendrecht.


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## AlexNL

Now that the dust around the Abellio fraud has settled, Arriva has presented what they will offer in the province of Limburg. When compared to the Abellio offer, Arriva seems to focus more on trains and less on buses. Arriva intends to offer 4 trains an hour between Nijmegen and Venray, through-services between Maastricht and Nijmegen and an international service Liège - Maastricht - Heerlen - Aachen. The intent is to run this service twice an hour.

The trains will look like this:









The core network will be as follows:









And Treinreiziger.nl has posted much more details.


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## radamfi

Do the train conductors ever check if people have paid the 6 euro dagkaart for carrying a bicycle? The problem is, you place the bike in the dedicated area, and then sit somewhere else on the train, maybe even upstairs from where the bike is. So how does the conductor know who's bike that is?

Also, on the Sprinter trains where you have tip-up seats in the area intended for bicycles and wheelchairs, should passengers sitting there vacate the area if needed for a bike?


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## Slagathor

I've taken a bike on a train a grand total of twice in my entire life but both times the conductor walked into the carriage and asked, loudly, "Who owns the bike on the balcony?"

The answer to your 2nd question is yes, officially. That's what the sign says. But circumstances might require improvisation, such as when the train is crowded and there's a pregnant woman or a really muscled and angry looking guy sitting there. :lol:


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## MrAronymous

Prototype for new the information kiosks, Delft station:









Cepezed

The old ones looked more or less like this


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## suasion

> Do the train conductors ever check if people have paid the 6 euro dagkaart for carrying a bicycle? The problem is, you place the bike in the dedicated area, and then sit somewhere else on the train, maybe even upstairs from where the bike is. So how does the conductor know who's bike that is?


I have seen the ticket checkers impound bikes because nobody would claim them


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## Wilhem275

If the bike is worth less than the fine...


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## radamfi

Wilhem275 said:


> If the bike is worth less than the fine...


What is the fine for not having a bike ticket?


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## suasion

> What is the fine for not having a bike ticket?


Depends on whether you have a bike or not:cheers:


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## Slagathor

radamfi said:


> What is the fine for not having a bike ticket?


It's not technically a fine, it's the standard surcharge of buying your ticket on-board. So you pay the original ticket (6 euros) + the surcharge (35 euros).


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

THIRTY FIVE EUROS?!?
How can that extra work that train conductor has to do be worth 35 euros?
That surcharge sounds pretty much like a fine to me

(Especially since our surcharge is 50 cents)


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## MrAronymous

You need to properly read.
He said that the €35 is the surcharge (for not buying a bike ticket) + normal ticket price. In other words: a "fine".
I imagine not having a ticket which includes bikes, when you brought your bike, is the same as not having a normal ticket normally; you'll be fined.

The rate for the bike is €6 for a day pass. But remember here that if it would be any cheaper many more people would take bikes on board and chaos would ensue. Bike + train is very popular.


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## verfmeer

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> THIRTY FIVE EUROS?!?
> How can that extra work that train conductor has to do be worth 35 euros?
> That surcharge sounds pretty much like a fine to me
> 
> (Especially since our surcharge is 50 cents)


Because he has to write the ticket, send a copy of it to the office, which then send a bill to your house. Paying directly isn't possible, because carrying cash is too dangerous for the train conductor. Criminals would quickly know that train conductors carry cash, so the train conductors could get robbed quite quickly.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

verfmeer said:


> Because he has to write the ticket, send a copy of it to the office, which then send a bill to your house. Paying directly isn't possible, because carrying cash is too dangerous for the train conductor. Criminals would quickly know that train conductors carry cash, so the train conductors could get robbed quite quickly.


Oh, okay, that makes sense.

But is robbing of conductors really a thing?



MrAronymous said:


> You need to properly read.
> He said that the €35 is the surcharge (for not buying a bike ticket) + normal ticket price. In other words: a "fine".
> I imagine not having a ticket which includes bikes, when you brought your bike, is the same as not having a normal ticket normally; you'll be fined.


I got kinda mixed up in my head because, because surcharge sounds more like an additional fee - you pay it and everything's fine. But I didn't know that the conductors don't carry money, so now I understand it better.


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## Suburbanist

In Netherlands, train conductors are not there to sell tickets, only to check compliance. 

It is a basic feature of any proof-of-payment system that there has to be a fine/fee/surcharge large enough to encourage people to pre-comply (aka, buy the right travel product and use it properly - check-in/out) on their own.

Else, a lot of people would not buy tickets at all and just wait for a conductor that might or might not come to sell a ticket.

I'm under the impression there are less conductors roaming trains to inspect ticketing than 3 or 4 years ago.


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## radamfi

Regarding the debate as to whether the €35 penalty is a "fine". On railforums.co.uk there is a section where people who have been caught for not having a ticket get advice, and usually say they have received a "fine". Then someone corrects them and says that only a court can issue a "fine".

I didn't know that conductors didn't carry cash. I wouldn't have thought that robbery would be a major problem. In other countries, conductors sell tickets on the train, primarily because the ticket office is closed, and accept cash. They could easily be carrying hundreds of euros. Dutch train fares are so low compared to other countries so even with the €35 penalty you are not talking about much money.

What I suspect is a more significant problem is the fact that the conductor is enforcing a penalty and so could end up with an argument with the passenger. That is rather brave for an individual conductor. In most of South East England and a few other parts of England, there is a "Penalty Fare" system in operation, where you have to have a ticket, otherwise there is a Penalty Fare of £20 or double the fare to the next station, whichever is higher. The conductor does not enforce that. Conductors do check tickets, but cannot issue the Penalty Fare. They can only sell a normal ticket, although discounted fares are not available. The only people who can issue a Penalty Fare are specially trained "Revenue Protection Inspectors" who normally travel around in pairs for their safety, and have special training in conflict management. They allow you to pay the Penalty Fare in cash on the spot, but they take your name and address and check that it is real by contacting relevant agencies if you want to pay later. 

Do the Dutch train conductors check if you are giving them a real name and address?


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## Mr_Dru

The government is planning to increase the penalty from €35 to €70. Plus the administration will increase from €10 to €15. That's excluding the travel route, that also must be paid.


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## Theijs

radamfi said:


> Do the Dutch train conductors check if you are giving them a real name and address?


Yes, if you do provide a false, or are a tourist without Dutch address, police will be ordered to the next station. So the conductor can continue his journey on the train.


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## M-NL

radamfi said:


> Regarding the debate as to whether the €35 penalty is a "fine". On railforums.co.uk there is a section where people who have been caught for not having a ticket get advice, and usually say they have received a "fine". Then someone corrects them and says that only a court can issue a "fine".


A Dutch conductor is what they call a BOA (Bijzonderde OpsoringsAmbtenaar = Special Investigative Officer) in the Netherlands. BOAs can issue actual fines, but tickets issued by a BOA do not have to be fines in the classic judicial sense.


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## mistertl

It's possible to buy a ticket on board with cash in The Netherlands, but the ticket price includes the 35 euro 'fine'. In this case, you don't get an 'uitstel van betaling' (I don't know the correct translation, something like a 'grace period for payment'?), but an actual handwritten ticket.


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## radamfi

Does anyone ever get prosecuted for deliberate fare evasion, or do they always get a 35 euro surcharge at worst? If you get prosecuted, do you get a criminal record which has to be declared when looking for a job?


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## Slagathor

Escalation is always possible, of course.

1) If you're caught on board a train or at a train station (sometimes only the platforms) without a valid ticket, you have to pay the fare + 35 euros.

2) You'll need to identify yourself. If you show a valid ID, there is the additional option of paying the full amount later (but within 1 week). The conductor will assume you can show a valid ID because, by law, all citizens of the Netherlands must at all times be able to identify themselves in the public realm.

3) Failure to comply (such as refusing to identify yourself and pay or showing a false ID) may result in further prosecution. The conductor will usually call for the police to be ready at the next station, who will take it from there.

4) Sentences for deliberate fare evasion may from this point include jail time of up to 2 months or a fine of up to 90 euros. These would show up on your criminal record.

When the conductor issues you your ticket of the fare price + 35 euros, he/she will always ask you: "There is no obligation to answer; but why did you not have a valid ticket?" and your response (should you choose to give one) will be registered and might be used in further (criminal) proceedings if you fail to pay.


----------



## suasion

Just saw a sign in Haarlem station about works for gates taking place in October/ November


----------



## K_

Slagathor said:


> Escalation is always possible, of course.
> 
> 1) If you're caught on board a train or at a train station (sometimes only the platforms) without a valid ticket, you have to pay the fare + 35 euros.


I wonder what will happen now NS is putting up gates everywhere. With the gates there is a huge potential for abuse.
What if a passenger says "yes, but the gates opened, and let me in, so I asumed I had a valid ticket". The burden of proof that the passenger is not the victim of a malfunctioning gate now lies with the railways...

Closed, gated systems don't do on board inspections AFAIK. They concentrate their fare enforcement on the gates themselves. NS however has a mixed system, with partly open and partly closed stations, and with now tickets that a passenger cannot inspect himself. I think this will end up badly for the NS the first time someone takes them to court over an alledged fare evasion.


----------



## Slagathor

K_ said:


> I wonder what will happen now NS is putting up gates everywhere. With the gates there is a huge potential for abuse.
> What if a passenger says "yes, but the gates opened, and let me in, so I asumed I had a valid ticket". *The burden of proof that the passenger is not the victim of a malfunctioning gate now lies with the railways...*
> 
> Closed, gated systems don't do on board inspections AFAIK. They concentrate their fare enforcement on the gates themselves. NS however has a mixed system, with partly open and partly closed stations, and with now tickets that a passenger cannot inspect himself. I think this will end up badly for the NS the first time someone takes them to court over an alledged fare evasion.


Interesting thought experiment, but I think you may have taken a leap there. I'm not sure the burden of proof falls with NS. In The Hague, for example, there are signs everywhere to alert the traveler that it is, at all times, his/her responsibility to have a ticket. Even if the ticket machine on board the tram in question is broken.

Also, there is the added complicating factor that a lot of commuter stations won't be gated shut. Many of them simply can't be. So in theory, there will always be a few stations where passengers could simply stroll onto the train without passing through a gate. That would surely mean the legal burden of proof would still fall on the passenger at all times.


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Slagathor said:


> 1) If you're caught on board a train or at a train station (sometimes only the platforms) without a valid ticket, you have to pay the fare + 35 euros.


I have been commuting by train for two years now and I have seen quite a few people who forgot or "forgot" to check-in. The worst the guard did was to ask them to step out on the closest station (a very small one usually, with check-in/out poles directly on the platform), check-in and come back onto the train. The guard waited for them before closing the doors. In most cases it was "next time please remember to check-in". I have never seen anyone getting a fine.


----------



## Slagathor

Grzegorz.Janoszka said:


> I have been commuting by train for two years now and I have seen quite a few people who forgot or "forgot" to check-in. The worst the guard did was to ask them to step out on the closest station (a very small one usually, with check-in/out poles directly on the platform), check-in and come back onto the train. The guard waited for them before closing the doors. In most cases it was "next time please remember to check-in". I have never seen anyone getting a fine.


Yeah that happens a lot and it's become more frequent since conductors have faced more physical violence in recent years. A lot of them just can't be bothered and prefer to avoid confrontation. It's not an official guideline or anything though; they're _supposed_ to make you buy a ticket + surcharge.


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^

I think there is an element of understanding with the conductors about the system. It's an easy thing to forget to check in or out if you are distracted. When somebody offers their card and there is money loaded on it, depending on circumstances and appearances I think they choose to assume it was an accident. I see people getting fines often enough to know there is no policy of ignoring fare evasion. in my experience old women who are less likely to assault a conductor are more likely to escape fines. Also when checks are done the checkers operate in pairs.

A few weeks ago I thought I had checked in but hadn't, the guy let me off because I was with my son and had bought him a railrunner ticket.
On another occasion I checked out leaving the station only to find I was checking in. I'm 100% certiain that I got the check in beep before boarding that train.


----------



## Surel

Slagathor said:


> Interesting thought experiment, but I think you may have taken a leap there. I'm not sure the burden of proof falls with NS. In The Hague, for example, there are signs everywhere to alert the traveler that it is, at all times, his/her responsibility to have a ticket. Even if the ticket machine on board the tram in question is broken.
> 
> Also, there is the added complicating factor that a lot of commuter stations won't be gated shut. Many of them simply can't be. So in theory, there will always be a few stations where passengers could simply stroll onto the train without passing through a gate. That would surely mean the legal burden of proof would still fall on the passenger at all times.


I am not really that sure. What is important here is whether the passenger has reasonable ways how to check the validity of the ticket.


----------



## K_

Surel said:


> I am not really that sure. What is important here is whether the passenger has reasonable ways how to check the validity of the ticket.


Indeed. You cannot require passengers themselves to ascertain they have the right ticket if the ticket is essentially invisible. 

If you look at most "gated" sytems than you see that they put the effort in revenue protection at the gates. Some systems even use tickets or tokens that are swallowed by the gates, so that when inside passengers don't have any proof of purchase.

When you have both gated and non gated stations this becomes an issue. If I commute between two non gated stations, and just systematically not check in, and then when the conductor comes just claim: "But I checked in. The machine did ping, and I boarded."
There is no way for the railways to prove that I have indeed not been the victim of a malfunctioning check in pole...


----------



## radamfi

K_ said:


> Closed, gated systems don't do on board inspections AFAIK.


There are lots of ticket gates in the UK and Ireland but not at all stations, so it is kind of like the Dutch system, although the gates primarily accept regular paper tickets with a magnetic strip with some also accepting smartcards. There are also stations where tickets are checked by humans. Inspections still exist although in areas with a lot of gates inspections are less common. Even on the London Underground which is fully gated there are occasional inspections.

The Paris suburban network is also gated. Does that have ticket checks? Given its size I would be surprised if it didn't.


----------



## K_

radamfi said:


> There are lots of ticket gates in the UK and Ireland but not at all stations, so it is kind of like the Dutch system, although the gates primarily accept regular paper tickets with a magnetic strip with some also accepting smartcards. There are also stations where tickets are checked by humans. Inspections still exist although in areas with a lot of gates inspections are less common. Even on the London Underground which is fully gated there are occasional inspections.


On UK railways the tickets are still human readable. And AFAIK what the gates do is just check your ticket is valid. So if you have a valid ticket, but get on a train via a route that does not have you pass a gate you are not going to get in to trouble.

The problem I see in The Netherlands is that the gates (and the CI/CO poles) also validate your ticket. Without the magic these devices do your ticket is not valid. But as a passengers you have no way of ascertaining that the device did perorm it's magic correctly.


----------



## radamfi

K_ said:


> On UK railways the tickets are still human readable. And AFAIK what the gates do is just check your ticket is valid. So if you have a valid ticket, but get on a train via a route that does not have you pass a gate you are not going to get in to trouble.
> 
> The problem I see in The Netherlands is that the gates (and the CI/CO poles) also validate your ticket. Without the magic these devices do your ticket is not valid. But as a passengers you have no way of ascertaining that the device did perorm it's magic correctly.


When you put a ticket in a ticket gate in Britain, the gate sometimes writes information to the magnetic strip. So if you try to use it again and the inspector is suspicious, he can scan the ticket. But yes, there is no concept of having to validate your ticket.

When you enter the NS gate or touch the pole it tells you on the display that you have checked in with NS. How much more evidence do you want? You can go to the ticket machine and check to see if the 20 euros has been deducted but you can only do that if you are not inside the gated part of the station, so that can only be done at an intermediate station or where there are no gates.

Is it possible to buy a smartcard reader like what the conductors have so you can check your own card for piece of mind?


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> Is it possible to buy a smartcard reader like what the conductors have so you can check your own card for piece of mind?


You can check the balance of your OV-Chipkaart on NS app. It is not perfect as it doesn't update instantaneously all the time, but they are getting better. 

Not sure about other operators (HTM, RET etc...) I don't have their apps installed and don't know about.


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## radamfi

Suburbanist said:


> You can check the balance of your OV-Chipkaart on NS app. It is not perfect as it doesn't update instantaneously all the time, but they are getting better.
> 
> Not sure about other operators (HTM, RET etc...) I don't have their apps installed and don't know about.


Ooh, I didn't realise that was in (near) real time. I'll have to install the apps when I next visit NL. In London, contactless bank cards are accepted for travel on buses, Underground and national trains and you can see online when you touched in after a few minutes, even on the bus as the data is transferred over the mobile network from the bus. However, because it is not quite instantaneous, when you are checked on the train, the conductor cannot check whether you touched in, as no data is stored on the card. The best he can do is store the card number on his device. So basically you cannot be caught for fare dodging if you show a bank card on a train in London.


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## M-NL

K_ said:


> There is no way for the railways to prove that I have indeed not been the victim of a malfunctioning check in pole...


They don't need to, the burden of proof is on you. When you're not checked in, regardless the cause, you don't have a valid ticket and will be 'awarded' the 35 euro penalty and the inability to exit a gated station.


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## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> You can check the balance of your OV-Chipkaart on NS app. It is not perfect as it doesn't update instantaneously all the time, but they are getting better.
> 
> Not sure about other operators (HTM, RET etc...) I don't have their apps installed and don't know about.


The NS app only knows about your balance the last time you touched in/out on an NS validator, and it might take a couple of hours for data to replicate from the validators to their backoffice. 

When traveling on any of the other operators, it sometimes takes days for your journeys to show up on ov-chipkaart.nl, and none of them offer apps that show your journeys like the NS app does. There are also no devices or apps available that allow you to read what's on your OV-chipkaart.


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## Silly_Walks

Are there nfc-apps available for nfc-enabled phones to read the OV-chipkaart?


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## K_

M-NL said:


> They don't need to, the burden of proof is on you. When you're not checked in, regardless the cause, you don't have a valid ticket and will be 'awarded' the 35 euro penalty and the inability to exit a gated station.


I wonder what the judge will have to say about that if this goes to court.

Consider the following scenario:

The conductor comes and checks my chip card. Notices that it hasn't checked in.
Me: But I checked in.
Conductor: But my card reader says otherwhise:
Me: But I did check in. The check in pole must have malfunctioned. It did behave as usual when I held my chipcard against it.

So it's basically my word against the conductor, with neither me nor the conductor posessing the means of proving beyond reasonable doubt that either mine or his version of what happened is correct. 

The conductor can indeed now write out a fine. And I can decide to take NS to court. Judges usually tend to put the burden of proof with those who have the most means at their disposal. So NS would have to come up with a proof that shows beyond reasonable doubt that their chipcard equipment never malfunctions...

It it only takes one court decision in favor of a disgruntled passenger and NS basically loses it's ability to collect revenue...

Someone else wrote here that in practice when a conductor encounters someone with a chipcard that hasn't been checked in they just tell people to quickly do that at the next station...


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## K_

radamfi said:


> When you enter the NS gate or touch the pole it tells you on the display that you have checked in with NS. How much more evidence do you want?


In this case I only have evidence that something was displayed on a screen. I do not have evidence that the correct bits were written to the card.


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## Suburbanist

K_, I don't understand your obsession with the issue of "can't have a system without written proof". If we were to take it seriously, virtually any application relying on RFID or other near-field communication would be dead on arrival.

For instance, in the Netherlands it is now possible at most debt card machines to make small payments touching your card on a reader for 2 seconds or so, instead of inserting it and entering a PIN. You probably wouldn't accept that because there isn't a register of an user physically entering a code (something that requires active and decisive action from the account holder) and because in a very, very limited number of circumstances a wrong card could have been read.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> K_, I don't understand your obsession with the issue of "can't have a system without written proof". If we were to take it seriously, virtually any application relying on RFID or other near-field communication would be dead on arrival.


No. That is not the case. I have actually myself no personal problem with RFID applications.

My "obsession" is more a worry. The Dutch absolutely love to game and abuse any system to their advantage. I think that the OV Chipkaart system as it exists now is vulnerable to this. And this will reduce revenu for the PT companies. 
That is not a good thing.


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## Suburbanist

I'm sure that if it had reduced revenue, companies would have complained. On the contrary, GVB (local transp. Amsterdam) and RET (local transp. Rotterdam) started getting a significantly amount of increased shared revenue from passes and ticket combinations, as the old system did not account properly multimodal uses.


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## Surel

Suburbanist said:


> K_, I don't understand your obsession with the issue of "can't have a system without written proof". If we were to take it seriously, virtually any application relying on RFID or other near-field communication would be dead on arrival.
> 
> For instance, in the Netherlands it is now possible at most debt card machines to make small payments touching your card on a reader for 2 seconds or so, instead of inserting it and entering a PIN. You probably wouldn't accept that because there isn't a register of an user physically entering a code (something that requires active and decisive action from the account holder) and because in a very, very limited number of circumstances a wrong card could have been read.


a) nope, you could use smart-phone app based services with RFID. You could also hook up a mobile phone number to your OV account, and have confirmation sms sent to your phone, if smart-phone app would be a problem.

b) nope. you got the receipt from the cash register. 

btw, I've been paying wireless with my debit card already several years ago in the CZ and more then ten years ago via sms in public transport.


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## Surel

radamfi said:


> When you enter the NS gate or touch the pole it tells you on the display that you have checked in with NS. How much more evidence do you want?


You would need some sort of proof that would be instantly available to both of you, the conductor and you that you have checked in. That is. You would be required to carry on you some sort of feedback from the machine that is easy to be checked by both, you and the conductor. That is a clear validation of your fare.

E.g. if instead of the OV card the service used smarth phone app, you would be required not only to check in, but if asked, you would be required to show on the screen of your phone the message that says that you checked in.

In Prague there's a system that works with SMSes. Instead of buying a ticked, you send special SMS to certain number. It deducts the fare from your phone bill and you receive in return a confirmation sms with the information about your ticket, times, price, and identification number.

If you are asked to show your ticket, you show the sms with the information, it's unique number is checked and everything is clear.


If you use paper ticket, it is not valid unless you validate it. The validation is there for everyone to see, to show the dates and times for which the ticket is valid.

In case of electronic fare, you need a validation as well. That is the check-in. The OV card however as it is now lacks a access to those validation information for the passenger. Therefore you can´t ask the passenger to provide those validation information when requested. What was easy with the paper ticket is impossible with the OV card.


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## K_

Surel said:


> You would need some sort of proof that would be instantly available to both of you, the conductor and you that you have checked in.


The magnetic strip cards in the Prodata System used on public transport in Flanders do exactly that: They print a line on the back of the card each time you use it, so you can easily check yourself dat indeed the machine did the right thing.


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## DingeZ

First: In a "My word against his word"-battle the conductor usually leaves it as it is. He can also see the last 10 uses of the card, if the person seems to be paying regularly, an incident is likely.
Second: You can always check the status of a card at a ticket machine. Once you present the card to the machine it will immediately tell if it is checked in or not. Larger stations have ticket machine both inside and outside the gates. You could also ask a conductor before boarding, he can always check.


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## radamfi

I can understand K_'s issue to an extent, despite being in favour of smartcard use in transport. That's partly why I switched from Oyster to contactless in London. In London, one failed validation on the bus can mean a criminal record. However, I have no such issues in the Netherlands as compared to London there are more safeguards and more ways to check that you have validated and the worst you have to fear for a one-off "offence" would be a 35 euro penalty, not a criminal record.

Visitors to London from the rest of the UK often say that they wish they had a smartcard system where they live.

Germany, Belgium and Switzerland have mobile tickets that you can load onto your smartphone. I guess that's not been considered necessary in the Netherlands because of the OV-Chipkaart, but maybe NS could now consider smartphone ticketing? That would satisfy people who don't want to use the OV-Chipkaart, particularly foreigners, but don't want the hassle of a printed e-ticket.


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## radamfi

Suburbanist said:


> I'm sure that if it had reduced revenue, companies would have complained. On the contrary, GVB (local transp. Amsterdam) and RET (local transp. Rotterdam) started getting a significantly amount of increased shared revenue from passes and ticket combinations, as the old system did not account properly multimodal uses.


If GVB and RET gained revenue, was there a corresponding loss to other carriers?


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## MrAronymous

FYI, TransLink Systems (owner, operator of OV-Chipkaart) has signed a deal with _all_ the public transit companies in the country to make sure all the systems in the future are compatible (card readers and such). They're even looking into smartphone NFC OV-Chipaart usage and elimination of having to check in and out again when changing operators when switching trains. NS is already testing 'paying afterwards' (especially for people with an NS Business Card) with the OV-Chipkaart.

Recent article.


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> If GVB and RET gained revenue, was there a corresponding loss to other carriers?


The net gains of GVB and RET came at expense of mostly some bus operators that were being paid significantly more than their actual share, based on outdated assumptions about flow of passengers. Both areas have subscriptions plans that mix up the "big state-local company" as the backbone carrier with services from contracted-out buses and NS (on a limited basis).

Old revenue share mechanisms (pre-OV-Chipkaart) underestimated sometimes dramatically the number of people actually using RET and GVB services. This has been corrected.

As a result, money allocated to buses was reduced. And, as the cities were facing budget crises at the time, they made noticeable cuts on the bus network, even as they boosted the tram/subway services, in Amsterdam, Den Haag and Rotterdam. Rotterdam experienced the most bus cuts.

I think the overall result was positive, there were god-awful many redundant bus routes meant to give "one-seat rides" over trips that can be done with multiple transfers on the tram/subway network. 

One must notice that, since the introduction of the OV-Chipkaart, rail fares have been kept mostly in line with inflation or a little bit over, whereas the kilometer-fare for local transportation has been increased quite significantly, in some cities by 40% since 2011.


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## Suburbanist

Switzerland, Germany and Belgium are not exactly comaprable with NEtherlands for they don't have a gating policy (meaning: a decision to introduce physical segregation of mass transportation with gates). Even major global cities like Berlin or Frankfurt have "gate-free" access to its subway service, which is quite sad and outdated.


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## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> Even major global cities like Berlin or Frankfurt have "gate-free" access to its subway service, which is quite sad and outdated.


...and very practical and also pleasant to use 



MrAronymous said:


> and elimination of having to check in and out again when changing operators when switching trains.


This should have been done from the beginning...

IMHO, to make the OV-C system a lot less unpleasant, also the bus&tram level should be organized like railway&metro: check in/out machines at the stops, and not check out&in at stopovers.
To avoid abuses the typical German rule must be applied: round or return trips are not allowed, and if a passenger is found travelling back to the departure point he will be fined. The system can automatically calculate which routes are allowed, letting users know in advance and not leaving the interpretation to the checking staff.
Also, a maximum "open travel time" can be specified.

Of course this leaves some extra grades of freedom to the traveller (typically, taking a wide route from A to B...), with a few passenger*km slipping out of control; but, as it happens in Germany, the vast majority of users will just go from A to B, not affecting the final revenues.


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## radamfi

Suburbanist said:


> Switzerland, Germany and Belgium are not exactly comaprable with NEtherlands for they don't have a gating policy (meaning: a decision to introduce physical segregation of mass transportation with gates). Even major global cities like Berlin or Frankfurt have "gate-free" access to its subway service, which is quite sad and outdated.


But NS still sells e-tickets that are printed on A4 paper and have installed bar-code readers on the gates to read them. So if you allow them, why not the mobile equivalent?


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## Aumgn

"Yes mr. conductor, I really did buy a ticket! It's on my phone that just died!"


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## mistertl

radamfi said:


> But NS still sells e-tickets that are printed on A4 paper and have installed bar-code readers on the gates to read them. So if you allow them, why not the mobile equivalent?


They intent to do so in the future. As a test, you can already load your international ticket to Belgium on to your smartphone (in the NS International app) and open the gates with it. The conductor is also able to read the tickets from your smartphone.
Tickets to Germany will follow in the foreseeable future (afaik this fall).
When successful, it's possible that it will also be used for domestic journeys.


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> But NS still sells e-tickets that are printed on A4 paper and have installed bar-code readers on the gates to read them. So if you allow them, why not the mobile equivalent?


I'm not against it, or using smartphone. I'm against "open" systems like those of Germany or Switzerland, where you walk in a subway like the platform was just an extension of the sidewalk.

I like heavy physical segregation that creates a "passengers-only" zone within station, and gates reading smart mediums (phones, RFID etc) to control the flow.
--------------------------

Anyway, I was thinking about something: Dutch railways in general are entering a period of low expectations and dull projects. When I moved to Netherlands, there were all buzz and excitement for the HSL-Zuid (which was about to open, then), still some talks of reviving Zuiderzeelijn, the works on Hanzelijn, major reconstruction of several big key stations, the anticipation of new trains like the V250, big plans for services to London etc.

Now, there are just 2 stations undergoing major reconstruction, and not many new projects in the pipeline. There are not new concrete railway projects in advanced planning stages either - even "interurban tram" Maastricht-Hasselt is stalling a bit. The new trains for NS will have lower specs than the abandoned V-250. 

At most, I read about studies or reviving rail service in Limburg and Groningen using already-existing heritage railway tracks. 

That also replicates at local railway level. The Alphen a/d Rijn-Leiden tram-train was cancelled, the conversion of the Hoek van Holland branch to Randstad Rail + more stations is behind schedule, there are no new subway projects in Amsterdam, and not a talk about much needed subway services in Utrecht. 

As the country already got over the worst of the financial crisis and is by all measures on a growing route again, it would be time to pull big projects again, like the Breda-Gorichem-Utrecht railway, reconstruction and building of 2 new tracks between Houten and Best, and new subway projects in all 4 major cities.


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## radamfi

mistertl said:


> They intent to do so in the future. As a test, you can already load your international ticket to Belgium on to your smartphone (in the NS International app) and open the gates with it. The conductor is also able to read the tickets from your smartphone.
> Tickets to Germany will follow in the foreseeable future (afaik this fall).
> When successful, it's possible that it will also be used for domestic journeys.


You gave me an idea! If NS International sell them then surely so will SNCB Europe. I then remembered that SNCB Europe sell Netherlands domestic tickets as homeprinted tickets, so I tried to book Amsterdam to Rotterdam at the SNCB Europe desktop website and it offers me "Mobile Ticket" as an option! I didn't try to book it though as I have no trips in the Netherlands in the near future. Has anyone else tried this, or is willing to try this?!


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## suasion

While smartcard travel in itself is a good idea, the system as introduced in the Netherlands is nonsense.
I lost my card the otherday, it's going to cost me €11 to replace it??????? 
I had to buy a ticket from the machine as a result and it costs €1 extra??????

My contract also included up to 4 people travelling with me. 
I can not buy an e-ticket with korting???????
With the OV chipcard if visiting relatives want to use this, they have to buy a €7.50 card and load it with €20 . Not an option just visiting for the weekend. So instead of paying €2.00 each way from the airport they must pay €8.80 to get there and back. 
No wonder operators are reporting an increase in revenue. NS must be raking it in from, every tourist paying €1 surcharge on their tickets to amsterdam.

Other countries allow you to buy refundable cards from vending machines but not Holland, to add to the list of things that are wrong. Holland had an opportunity to introduce a modern simple and customer friendly system, instead they managed to produce an overly complicated system which has done nothing but irritate everybody except the suburbanist.


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## radamfi

You can get a ticket combining a return train trip between Schiphol and Amsterdam and local GVB travel within Amsterdam for €15 for one day, €20 for two days and €25 for three days:

https://www.ns.nl/producten/en/uitleg-overige-producten/p/amsterdam-travel-ticket


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## MrAronymous

Suburbanist said:


> Now, there are just 2 stations undergoing major reconstruction, and not many new projects in the pipeline. There are not new concrete railway projects in advanced planning stages either - even "interurban tram" Maastricht-Hasselt is stalling a bit. The new trains for NS will have lower specs than the abandoned V-250.
> 
> That also replicates at local railway level. The Alphen a/d Rijn-Leiden tram-train was cancelled, the conversion of the Hoek van Holland branch to Randstad Rail + more stations is behind schedule, there are no new subway projects in Amsterdam, and not a talk about much needed subway services in Utrecht. .


First you complain about there no longer being any stations or concrete tracks being _built right at this moment_, but then you fail to mention there's is still an Amsterdam metro line and a new Utrecht tram line under construction _right at this moment_. I know you're aiming for more, but do those not count? Bit unfair now.

By the way, I don't see Utrecht fit for a metro. It's too small, and it can do with just an expanded tram and train network. They're currently upgrading the train services so that it should become a sort of RER. Combine that with a lightrail-style tram system and you have the same convenience of metro, for a lot less.


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## suasion

> You can get a ticket combining a return train trip between Schiphol and Amsterdam and local GVB travel within Amsterdam for €15 for one day, €20 for two days and €25 for three days:


That is more expensive than two single tickets under the new regime and a lot more than the €4 total they used to need for the weekend, I have bikes and no need for bus or tram. 
The OV card does not offer the same service I used to get. It only takes the ability for me to buy smartphone or e-tickets with korting to sort out this problem, but they do not offer it. My NS contract did not get any cheaper yet I can no longer get korting for friends or relatives from abroad.


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## Surel

MrAronymous said:


> First you complain about there no longer being any stations or concrete tracks being _built right at this moment_, but then you fail to mention there's is still an Amsterdam metro line and a new Utrecht tram line under construction _right at this moment_. I know you're aiming for more, but do those not count? Bit unfair now.
> 
> By the way, I don't see Utrecht fit for a metro. It's too small, and it can do with just an expanded tram and train network. They're currently upgrading the train services so that it should become a sort of RER. Combine that with a lightrail-style tram system and you have the same convenience of metro, for a lot less.


Utrecht is too small for a metro line.


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## radamfi

I've just been experimenting with the SNCB Europe app, and it appears to offer mobile tickets for trips within the Netherlands where either the origin or destination is Amsterdam Centraal, Schiphol, Rotterdam Centraal or Utrecht Centraal. So you can get:

Amsterdam Centraal to Schiphol
Amsterdam Centraal to Groningen
Utrecht to Roodeschool
Schiphol to Hoofddorp
Rotterdam Centraal to Rotterdam Alexander

but not

Amsterdam Amstel to Den Haag Centraal
Groningen to Assen
Den Haag HS to Leiden


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## Suburbanist

MrAronymous said:


> First you complain about there no longer being any stations or concrete tracks being _built right at this moment_, but then you fail to mention there's is still an Amsterdam metro line and a new Utrecht tram line under construction _right at this moment_. I know you're aiming for more, but do those not count? Bit unfair now.


Oh, I should have explained better. Of course I know of the Noordzuidlijn and the projects that are winding up. My point is that without new active projects on design phase right now, in a couple years there will be nothing much being brought live. 

Leaving the urban transportation projects to other threads, we could talk about electrifying and twinning the whole Leeuwarden-Groningen-Leer (Germany) line. 

They also need to get more aggressive with ERTMS deployment, pulling forward the upgrades scheduled only to 2025.


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## radamfi

I would say the Programma Hoogfrequent Spoorvervoer (PHS) is quite a big deal, giving metro frequencies on many lines, and that's going ongoing for the next 10 years and beyond.


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## Suburbanist

radamfi said:


> I would say the Programma Hoogfrequent Spoorvervoer (PHS) is quite a big deal, giving metro frequencies on many lines, and that's going ongoing for the next 10 years and beyond.


It won't do much to increase speed though 

Of course it is good idea to have 134 daily Eindoven-Amsterdam trains (per direction) between IC and Sprinters, but that doesn't mean one will travel between Eindhoven and Amsterdam in 45 minutes.


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## suasion

> I've just been experimenting with the SNCB Europe app, and it appears to offer mobile tickets for trips within the Netherlands where either the origin or destination is Amsterdam Centraal, Schiphol, Rotterdam Centraal or Utrecht Centraal. So you can get:
> 
> Amsterdam Centraal to Schiphol
> Amsterdam Centraal to Groningen
> Utrecht to Roodeschool
> Schiphol to Hoofddorp
> Rotterdam Centraal to Rotterdam Alexander


Sums NS up really.


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## suasion

> It won't do much to increase speed though


For a public trabsport increasing frequency reduces journey time.
First case, after work I have to wait less time for a train going my way= faster journey.
Second, I have to be somewhere at a fixed time. More trains means one is more likely to arrive close to my appointment time, I can leave home later=faster journey


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## Theijs

Suburbanist said:


> They also need to get more aggressive with ERTMS deployment, pulling forward the upgrades scheduled only to 2025.


ProRail messed up its finances, so don't expect anything more in the near future than that is currently planned.


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## Surel

Suburbanist said:


> Oh, I should have explained better. Of course I know of the Noordzuidlijn and the projects that are winding up. My point is that without new active projects on design phase right now, in a couple years there will be nothing much being brought live.
> 
> Leaving the urban transportation projects to other threads, we could talk about electrifying and twinning the whole Leeuwarden-Groningen-Leer (Germany) line.
> 
> They also need to get more aggressive with ERTMS deployment, pulling forward the upgrades scheduled only to 2025.


Amsterdam - Leeuwarden - Groningen over Ijsselmeer would be better. It would cut some 60 kms between Amsterdam and Leeuwarden. It would be even maybe possible to introduce there half hour tact for 250 km/h trains.


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## MrAronymous

Yeah well, that's not happening. There have been plans for that for years, but they decided not to go through with it because of the cost/benefit ratio. The (a smaller) budget was spent on improving road connections to Leeuwarden instead.


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## Surel

MrAronymous said:


> Yeah well, that's not happening. There have been plans for that for years, but they decided not to go through with it because of the cost/benefit ratio. The (a smaller) budget was spent on improving road connections to Leeuwarden instead.


I would trace it through Noord Holland and through Afsluitdijk of even a new dike. Yet even worse ratio .


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## 3737

Today the 1315 returned from Germany to be reactivated and repainted.
Also they showed the 1304 in its new livery.









link


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## Theijs

3737 said:


> Today the 1315 returned from Germany to be reactivated and repainted. Also they showed the 1304 in its new livery. link


uah, uggly 70s colour scheme!


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## da_scotty

Suburbanist said:


> It won't do much to increase speed though
> 
> Of course it is good idea to have 134 daily Eindoven-Amsterdam trains (per direction) between IC and Sprinters, but that doesn't mean one will travel between Eindhoven and Amsterdam in 45 minutes.


But appart from speeding up entrance/exit speeds at railway stations, your speed increase wont be as effective.

-The lengt between Eindhoven-Amsterdam is +/- 120 km, with stops about every 30 km. 
- Lets say in this 30 km the train can travel at top speed for 20 km. 
- Speed is 140km/h : the 15km takes +/- 8.5 minutes.
- Speed is 200km/h : the 15 km takes +/- 6 minutes

The investments for turning the whole stretch in a 200km/h would gain 10 minutes. The cost would be huge, the improvements little. 
I would rather save ten minutes by having a train every ten minutes, instead of waiting ten minutes. Adding more trains is cheaper and more cost effective then having 200km/h on such stretches.


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## Silly_Walks

You can have more trains if they clear a section faster. 

The distance between Utrecht and Den Bosch is about 48 km. It's about time trains go 200 km/h on that stretch.


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## Momo1435

The Hague Central Station.


IMG_1726 by Momo1435, on Flickr


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## AlexNL

There are still plenty of major projects for the railway, but they will be less visible than HSL-Zuid or Betuweroute have been. One major project is PHS (introduction of metro-like frequencies), the other is the rollout of ERTMS.

Passengers will notice the first as having more trains per hour on the same infrastructure. Passengers won't notice a thing from the 2nd one, except for perhaps a slight decrease in journey times due to higher maximum speeds and calculated braking curves.

As much as I would love to see the Breda - Utrecht line built, I don't expect it any time soon. With the HSL Zuid fiasco still on everyone's mind, I can't see the government accepting the build of a new line anytime soon.


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## Suburbanist

The point of have VMax 250km/h would be to have direct non-stop Eindhoven-Amsterdam trains. Now if only they hadn't demolished through-tracks in Utrecht...


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## Silly_Walks

Trains can still pass Utrecht when going from Amsterdam to Eindhoven, just not at 250 km/h.

Wouldn't make sense to not stop at Utrecht, however, as it is THE BUSIEST TRAIN STATION IN THE NETHERLANDS.


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## AlexNL

Exactly. Skipping Utrecht does not make sense at all.


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## Suburbanist

And that is, of course, not counting VAT (which is a general tax).

My point is this: just because transportation is a public service, doesn't mean it should necessarily be or be not funded out of general taxation.


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## suasion

A bit out of date but you will notice in 2006 road traffic only accounted for 23% of Dutch fuel use in 2006 and was trending lower. And I bet that 23% included lawnmowers:bowtie:
Plus all the fuel cars burn will start to come at a cost

But this is a silly argument, the roads budget is not related to the expected btw take from fuel or car purchase. What about bike lanes, is the btw from bells and other accessories funding them? I would also argue all the small cobble lock streets probably don't come under the national budget.


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## telemaxx

Suburbanist said:


> Fuel taxes collected 260% more money than all expenses in the car infrastructure of the road network, so that argument is somehow moot.


Do you have a source for that? Because I guess this does not really include everything like all kinds of city streets, parking facilities (not only building and maintaining them, but what is the cost of space they take in the public space?). Then you probably don't count external cost.


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## Suburbanist

telemaxx said:


> Do you have a source for that? Because I guess this does not really include everything like all kinds of city streets, parking facilities (not only building and maintaining them, but what is the cost of space they take in the public space?). Then you probably don't count external cost.


I compared the road fuel duty (exclusive of VAT, which is paid over it!) and the car registration/purchase fees/taxes, meaning the taxes the Dutch government only collects because of vehicular road use, with the expenditures of RWS.

Opportunity cost of space used by linear infrastructure is always very tricky to measure. At extremes, if roads, highways, railways, pipelines, transmission lines didn't exist, life would be exgtremely harsh. Infrastructure is somehow needed to modern life so we can't just measure the value of land in, Rotterdam, and the assume that if you ripped A16, A20, A15, A13, and also all the overground railways, and built skyscrapers over the space, the city would still work and the rest of land have the same value.

Same go for trains, we cannot talk of the land opportunity cost of Rotterdam Centraal or Amsterdam Science Park and them assume the presence of these stations is exogenous to the real estate prices nearby (or all over the city)

I'm not denying there are health externalities, climate externalities etc.


----------



## K_

suasion said:


> hno:hno:hno:
> 
> Railways in Holland are built using public funds.
> 
> The road network is not expected to turn a profit, society can't do without it. Why shold the rail network be treated differently.



That's not the point I'm making. Railways indeed have a positive externality, just as roads have. 
I however don't see anything wrong with a railway turning a profit if it can. Why should the added value a railway produces only go to it's customers?


----------



## MrAronymous

Because the system isn't as good as it needs to be yet. If the system's perfect, and there's a profit, first prices should be lowered. Still perfect and a making money? > profit.


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> Because the system isn't as good as it needs to be yet. If the system's perfect, and there's a profit, first prices should be lowered. Still perfect and a making money? > profit.


Perfection doesn't exist. 

Again, why should all the added value go to the customers? What is wrong with the company actually producing the added value getting a part of it?


----------



## MrAronymous

Because people are paying for service. The 'company' is owned by the government, and therefore is supposed to benefit the people (investing), rather than leeching. Same case could be made with roads. But then again, "improving" roads often comes down to widening, which is often not possible or wanted because of health/safety/ecological/space reasons.


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> Because people are paying for service. The 'company' is owned by the government, and therefore is supposed to benefit the people (investing), rather than leeching.


What are you going to invest with if you don't have profits?

Profit is not leeching.
If I produce something that is worth 30 euro to you, and it costs 20 euro to me to produce it, I've produced an added value of 10 euro. Now you are saying that I should sell this to you for 20 euro, and let you have all the added value, otherwhise I'm "leeching"? Why is it wrong if I ask 25,- euro from you for it?


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^^^

A fair point if any profit made is reinvested in the system, but I think you will find, as in any company when profit is the goal (which it must be in a private business, otherwise nobody would invest) that the focus on profit will come at the expense of service. 
I think we are all agreed here that like all other vital infrastructure, it is impossible to accurately calculate the value the rail system adds to the economy. Therefore the railway should focus on trying to move as many people as efficiently as possibe. If they can turn a profit doing that, fair enough but their business model should not be built around it.
Now If a private company wants to build their own network then as far as I'm concerned they are free to try and make all the profit they want.


----------



## K_

suasion said:


> A fair point if any profit made is reinvested in the system,


Quite often this is indeed the case. There are quite a few major companies out there for example that systematically reinvest all their profits. 
(Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway group is an example).



> but I think you will find, as in any company when profit is the goal (which it must be in a private business, otherwise nobody would invest) that the focus on profit will come at the expense of service.


Honestly I find this rarely to be the case. After all, fosusing on profit at the expense of service is about the fastest way to turn a profitable company in a non profitable one...



> I think we are all agreed here that like all other vital infrastructure, it is impossible to accurately calculate the value the rail system adds to the economy. Therefore the railway should focus on trying to move as many people as efficiently as possibe.


Trying to move as many people as possible should not always be the goal. After all, transport costs energy, even when it's done in the most efficient way possible. If you make transport to cheap the result is that people will move around to much.
You can end up with a transportation system that efficiently moves huge amounts of people, but that produces a negative added value to the economy as a whole...


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^

Off the top of my head you have to look at the original Railtrack in the UK, its focus on profit came at the expense of safety. More recently i don't think the "special" chip in VW cars was installed with anything more than profit in mind.


Mankind has always sought to improve mobility and worked hard to come up with innovations to do so. Such developments have usually been drivers of economic growth. Using livestock as pack animals/ riding them, the wheel, incremental improvement in boats and navigation, buiding canals, external combustion engine and the railways; internal combustion engine and automobiles, Gas turbines/ aircraft.

Railways are reflection what our socio-economic system wants. And for good or bad that is lots of people wanting to move at peak. If you restrict rail movement people just shift to other modes of transport plus your economy becomes less competetive.
In fact one could argue it is because most people want to travel at peak thereby overloading the roadnetwork that much of current railways are needed.


----------



## 3737

NS just announced (dutch) that as of 13 december the last 31 Mat64 will be decommissioned after 50 years of service.








Link


----------



## Suburbanist

@suasion, you are ignoring in all your argument a key fact: even if the government is not a private entity, some essential principles of economics still apply. If a railway system is run at operational losses (meaning: fares can't pay the regular cost of operating and keeping it in good state of repair and covering depreciation and replacement of capital assets), this means money will have to come from somewhere, namely, from public budget funds, which means, ultimately taxes (or debt to be paid by taxes).

There might, or might not, be a case for using tax money to directly fund the operation of railways. It implies spreading its costs through society and decoupling users and payers. Those are all valid discussions, but we can't say that by "not having a profit motive" NS, ProRail or the other Dutch transportation public entities could run services ignoring financial constraints altogether.


----------



## Slagathor

3737 said:


> NS just announced (dutch) that as of 13 december the last 31 Mat64 will be decommissioned after 50 years of service.
> 
> [URL="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PlanV447%2B478.jpg"]Link[/URL][/QUOTE]
> 
> I know their time is up, and they don't meet today's standards anymore. But it's still a shame. When I was a kid in the '80s and '90s, the Mat '64 was [B]the train[/B]. We all knew what a train was supposed to look like, and they looked like the Mat '64. :D


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^^^

No I'm not ignoring anything. 

The annual subsidy to all public transport is about 0.5% of GNP. Now I will ask you, how much do you think the Dutch public transport system contributes to GDP?

Besides the obvious of getting lots of people to work on time:

People can move to more productive jobs – this values the benefits resulting from jobs changing location into areas with higher productivity (such as Central Business Districts). Analysis shows that improving access to these clusters means that more workers are willing to work there. There are benefits to society from this:
The tax revenues associated with their higher income, because the
individual makes their decision net of tax.

Increased labour force participation – This reflects the relationship
between lower commuting costs and higher labour force participation
rates.

Agglomeration benefits – increase in productivity – this values the
increase in productivity to all existing jobs in agglomeration areas from the
marginal increase in employment density. It is an external gain from the
move to more productive jobs, described above. In this case people stay in
the same job but benefit from an increase in productivity.



Look at the UK system where the concessions focus on profit. It is alleged that the earnings from NS's UK subsidary acts as a subsidy for Dutch railways.

You should also remember the policy goals for Dutch public transport is

"The accessibility of towns and cities, the shortage of land, the quality of life in neighbourhoods, the social isolation of people – public transport contributes to a modern balanced society such as ours."

ie. There is a social function


----------



## suasion

> I know their time is up, and they don't meet today's standards anymore.


I was on one last weekend, I haven't seen one in ages. They are very poor compared to the newer sprinters, especially in terms of access.


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> I know their time is up, and they don't meet today's standards anymore. But it's still a shame. When I was a kid in the '80s and '90s, the Mat '64 was *the train*. We all knew what a train was supposed to look like, and they looked like the Mat '64.


What is strange to me is that their design was already quite out of fashion for the time it was unveiled. Especially the nose, doesn't look modern at all for the time, but something of the 1930s


----------



## Suburbanist

In a pilot program, some NS staff that interacts with the public will start wearing body cameras they can quickly turn on if facing a confrontational situation with passengers.


----------



## da_scotty

^^
Sad but necessary.


----------



## Surel

suasion said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> A fair point if any profit made is reinvested in the system, but I think you will find, as in any company when profit is the goal (which it must be in a private business, otherwise nobody would invest) that the focus on profit will come at the expense of service.
> I think we are all agreed here that like all other vital infrastructure, it is impossible to accurately calculate the value the rail system adds to the economy. Therefore the railway should focus on trying to move as many people as efficiently as possibe. If they can turn a profit doing that, fair enough but their business model should not be built around it.
> Now If a private company wants to build their own network then as far as I'm concerned they are free to try and make all the profit they want.


The problem is not profit oriented approach. The problem is monopolization.

Profit is a strong incentive for increasing quality and keeping up to a standard. Competition is even stronger incentive.

Monopolization leads to situation of easy profits, without quality.

On the other side, networks, as railway of course is, have economies that lead to monopolization as there are huge fixed costs, network effects, etc.

Luckily, there doesn't have to be only competition of railway companies, but also competition of railway with other means of transport.


----------



## da_scotty

^^
Can we talk about Dutch Railways? I Believe the economic side of Railways has a seperate topic now!!


----------



## Suburbanist

da_scotty said:


> ^^
> Sad but necessary.


I have used the train system a bit, and I remember just twice having witnesses something that would be a "confrontation". Once when I was catching a night train to Schiphol, a group of staffers were dealing with a couple drunk and provocative teenagers, and another when a guy was yelling and cursing a conductor as they were arguing about their student card being not valid at that week. It's been a while since I last caught night trains, I'm not sure whether they still block the entrances of stations and only let passengers that check in go through to the platforms. 

I once saw a scene where police arrived once in the subway/metro in Amsterdam though. Fare-dodgers it appears (I was on the opposite platform witnessing the staff block the escalators and the police arrive. No idea what the fuss was about.


----------



## 3737

Sneak preview of the SNG (dutch).


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^^^

Baby changing table. :banana:


----------



## Wilhem275

Slagathor said:


> I know their time is up, and they don't meet today's standards anymore. But it's still a shame. When I was a kid in the '80s and '90s, the Mat '64 was *the train*. We all knew what a train was supposed to look like, and they looked like the Mat '64.


Well, I'm happy I tried them a couple of times last year 

So long!











So, the oldest trains around in NL will be...? ICM and IC coaches?


----------



## Mojito

^^ The first generation of Sprinters (SGM, now SGMm). The first one was delivered in 1975.


----------



## M-NL

Interesting detail:
The last delivered mat'64 (plan V13 number 965) was taken into service in december 1976.
The complete prototype series SGM-0 was taken into service between april 1975 and august 1976.


----------



## da_scotty

The oldest active might be the NS 1200/1300 loco's who are still active, I believe one was re-activated not to long a go. And I do mean active service, not heritage trains.


----------



## AlexNL

suasion said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Baby changing table. :banana:


It's an EU requirement. If a newly built (or refurbished) train has toilets, at least one of them must be wheelchair accessible and must also have baby changing facilities in the same room.


----------



## Sunfuns

suasion said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Baby changing table. :banana:


If you don't like your own anymore you can go in and change to another one :booze:


----------



## AlexNL

To be precise, the baby changing table requirement is defined in the TSI People with Reduced Mobility and is specified as follows:



> *4.2.2.5. Toilets*
> (...)
> (4) When toilets are fitted in a train a baby nappy changing facility shall be provided. If separate nursery facilities are not provided or if separate nursery facilities are provided but are not accessible to a wheelchair user, a table shall be incorporated within the universal toilets. It shall be compliant with the requirements of point 5.3.2.5.
> 
> (...)
> 
> *5.3.2.5. Baby nappy changing table*
> (1) The usable surface of the baby nappy changing table shall be a minimum of 500 mm wide and 700 mm long.
> (2) It shall be designed to prevent a baby from inadvertently sliding off, shall have no sharp edges and shall be able to take a minimum load of 80 kg.
> (3) It shall be possible to put it into the stowed position with only one hand, using a force not exceeding 25 N.


----------



## MarcVD

>>> shall be able to take a minimum load of 80 kg

Strong baby, isn't it ?


----------



## Svartmetall

MarcVD said:


> >>> shall be able to take a minimum load of 80 kg
> 
> Strong baby, isn't it ?


Or has an adult leaning on it, plus bags and changing equipment (and baby of course). What if the train rocks and the adult falls against the changing table? The sudden impact may wrench the table from the wall in such a case unless it is able to bear a substantial load. 

Just a thought. Might be wrong.


----------



## Nexis

video by Timosha21

*The Dutch National Railroad System - Holland Trains*


----------



## Wilhem275

A technical question on infrastructure. 

In this frame I took from a video at Riekerpolder there are two extra rails in the middle of the track.










Now, in a local forum there was quite a quarrel about their function. 

Theory 1: they are placed where the track lies over two different grounds (land/bridge), to give more vertical rigidity. 

Theory 2: they keep derailed axles within the track.

Theory 3: there is a dilation joint there, with the main rails cut longitudinally and free to slide, and the extra rails are there to hold everything in place. 


I'll stick with the first. Who's right? 
I also noticed that in recent works ProRail is using this setup, with the bridge deck filled with ballast.
It appears the rails fastenings are no more encased in the poured concrete (a setup that DB Netz and RFI are abandoning, it seems), while it was very common in many Dutch viaducts of the 80s/90s.


----------



## AlexNL

Believe it or not, it's the second. The idea is that the tunnel underneath it is protected when a derailing train runs over it.


----------



## Silly_Walks

^^

I know the type of extra rails you are referring to, but the ones in the photo do not seem like those types of rails.

The anti-derailing rails generally start and end in a point, and cover a far longer stretch.


----------



## AlexNL

They can, but it's not necessary. If the bridge is really short this suffices.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Thanks!


----------



## ascariss

New Arnhem station looks impressive, oddly enough it doesn't feel and look like a station, more along the lines of a museum for contemporary arts. Still would definitely like to visit and see it in person.


----------



## MrAronymous

If you would look more than 2 seconds you would see the Arriva (red) gates aren't active yet, so they put up some temporary totems. If you can figure out which train you have to take, you can also figure out which gate you have to take. They could have made the logos a bit bigger but the situation looks fine to me.


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> If you can figure out which train you have to take, you can also figure out which gate you have to take.


I'm going to Arnhem Velperpoort and intend to just jump on the next train going that way. So which gate do I take?


----------



## Slagathor

Just buy a car and bugger off already.


----------



## MrAronymous

You check the screens for the next train to Arnhem Velperpoort. There you see if it's an "Arriva Stoptrein" or "NS Sprinter". Then you go to the right gate.

That wasn't so hard now was it.


----------



## suasion

What happens when I'm changing train? do Ihave to exit one gate and enter another?


----------



## corgan1

Momo1435 said:


> The new station was designed by Ben van Berkel from UNStudio.
> [...]


Amazing! :banana:


----------



## julesstoop

The present system is completely ridiculous. If these railway companies really can't strike a few smart deals on how to distribute the fees on combined routes and as a result persist in requiring passengers to chip in and out whenever they change company, they should make it possible to do so on the vehicle itself. Similar to the system used on just about any bus and tram.


----------



## MrAronymous

suasion said:


> What happens when I'm changing train? do Ihave to exit one gate and enter another?


No, for that there is this:


Crackpatch said:


> ]


But the different commuter subscriptions and gates-per-company are being worked on though.

@Jules; that would be a nightmare. Imagine a full, or even half of the people on a train having to get off and tap a card reader. Would take even longer than it does now in busy stations.


----------



## Sunfuns

I was in Netherlands a week ago and also used the train system. Sure, it's possible to learn it, but it is overcomplicated. I had a feeling the technology has been introduced just for technology's sake not because it makes it better for passengers.


----------



## Theijs

Sunfuns said:


> I was in Netherlands a week ago and also used the train system. Sure, it's possible to learn it, but it is overcomplicated. I had a feeling the technology has been introduced just for technology's sake not because it makes it better for passengers.


This technology has been introduced so each transport company obtains the exact fare per travelled kilometer. It has not been introduced to be consumer friendly.


----------



## Suburbanist

I read the major beneficiaries of OV-Chipkaart were GVB and RET, which, under previous estimation schemes, were allocated substantially lower portion of metropolitan fares in their areas than the actual usage, to the point this extra money has been key in preserving these agencies from cuts that had been proposed in 2010.


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> You check the screens for the next train to Arnhem Velperpoort. There you see if it's an "Arriva Stoptrein" or "NS Sprinter". Then you go to the right gate.


And then I'm at the platform, having checked in at an Arriva gate, and notice that the Arriva train is late, and the next one is a NS train...

In fact, what is actually happening at Arnhem right now is that people will the Arriva gates, even when taking an NS sprinter, because the Arriva train is cheaper...


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I read the major beneficiaries of OV-Chipkaart were GVB and RET, which, under previous estimation schemes, were allocated substantially lower portion of metropolitan fares in their areas than the actual usage, to the point this extra money has been key in preserving these agencies from cuts that had been proposed in 2010.


So they didn't have good useage statistics before. They could have fixed that without having to introduce an expensive system.

The should have aimed from the outset for a system where you only need to CI at the beginning, and CO at the end, and don't need to worry about which company you are travelling on. 

The system as it is now is confusing, and is prone to be abused by those who actually know how it works...


----------



## K_

MrAronymous said:


> No, for that there is this:


And what if you only have 1 minute to make your transfer, and lots of people all want to do the same?

It should not be needed to do this. If the check in time at the starting station is known, and the check out time at the final station the system should be able to deduce which trains you travelled on.


----------



## julesstoop

MrAronymous said:


> @Jules; that would be a nightmare. Imagine a full, or even half of the people on a train having to get off and tap a card reader. Would take even longer than it does now in busy stations.


 
Of course. Using present technology, the only decent solution would be a single 'check in' and 'check out' per trip. But it's also possible to devise a system where you wouldn't need to explicitly hold your card against a surface to check in or out. Entering or exiting a vehicle with a chip card would be sufficient to register.


----------



## M-NL

They should have equipped all trains with sensors counting the number of boarding and alighting passengers. That way they could have determined the exact amount of passenger kilometres travelled and you do not need complicated transfer procedures.
Also in retrospect they found out people that travel on tickets bought online or abroad don't have chip cards, so they had to modify the gates to accept those tickets. Thus there was no reason to abolish paper tickets at all, yet the still did.


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^^^

Its so sad but so true, that they forgot about all the international passengers. :bash:Shame on DB amd SNCB for not complying with the chipcard.:nuts:


----------



## Suburbanist

suasion said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Its so sad but so true, that they forgot about all the international passengers. :bash:Shame on DB amd SNCB for not complying with the chipcard.:nuts:


You can use etickets to check in and out, no problems.


----------



## suasion

Yes, but as an afterthought.


----------



## Coccodrillo

As there is a long term idea to convert the whole Dutch network to 3 kV DC or 25 kV AC, would it be better to choose one of these two alternatives to electrify these lines? Sure, they would be more difficult to manage at the beginning, but the conversion would not be easy and quick either, and it should start at some point.


----------



## da_scotty

The line is being electrified as we speak (every evening) and yes that is likely to happen. However there is still a lot of speculation. 
In the Dutch topic the lines around Limburg where mentioned, as they are isolated and connected to the belgium 3kV network. But again, nothing is planned (or a time line given) at the moment.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think they should start upgrading to 25 kV AC at the same time they will implement ERTMS on each line.


----------



## rolabol

Suburbanist said:


> I think they should start upgrading to 25 kV AC at the same time they will implement ERTMS on each line.


I don't expect this will happen, as it would imply raising every structure (viaduct) over the railway. It's just too costly. hno:

Engines that can handle different voltages are no longer the problem. The problem is that the power supply around big stations like Utrecht may be insufficient: if too many trains start at the same time, the voltage may drop below the safety threshold.


----------



## M-NL

Starting trains aren't as much a problem as it used to be, in the sense that in the past some train types could make the overhead voltage drop to below 1000V (except for the driver, the 1200 has no under voltage protection whatsoever!), causing other types low voltage safety systems to kick in. Nowadays the power electronics have voltage/current curves built in, so when the voltage drops they have to limit traction current.

Of course switching to 3kV will ease this problem even more, even when you only switch from [email protected] to [email protected] Note that at 3 kV the nominal voltage is about 3.3kV instead of the 3.6kV allowed. That extra 0.3kV headroom is the reason why you can recover more energy when using 3kV.


----------



## 3737

A picture of the new FLIRT for NS at the stadler site in poland.








link


----------



## The Polwoman

^^

I see, the distinction between the NS-Flirt and the other one (was it for Hungary?) is clearly made as the blue line is smaller at the bottom and the gray one is minimal at the bottom too, more white.

Coming back at the voltage discussion, there has never been made an official statement but two years ago ProRail started a research for 3kV. The reason for 3kV is quite more obvious than changing towards AC because of Belgium and the existing infrastructure. And the trains itself as you can see in the picture above :lol:.


----------



## Suburbanist

How much extra clearance does 25kV AC actually require?


----------



## M-NL

The NEN-EN50110 norm contains a table with required distances. Roughly speaking the minimal safety distance to prevent a current arc is 10mm per kV + 150mm (thus making it 165mm for 1.5kV and 400mm for 25kV). The minimal allowed supervised working distance is the minimum safety distance + 1000mm (making it 1165mm for 1.5kV and 1400mm for 25kV).

So the answer to your question: About 235mm extra, which can be quite prohibitive when you're dealing with low clearance infrastructural element such as a tunnel or a viaduct.


----------



## Silly_Walks

So is there a list or map showing all the structures requiring to be modified to meet that 1400mm?


----------



## da_scotty

I doubt it, because there is no full scale plan yet. I suppose there are stats about bridges, but they are not public.

A lot of new projects are however being prepared with a new type of cantenary system. Which is prepared for 25kV.


----------



## Silly_Walks

da_scotty said:


> A lot of new projects are however being prepared with a new type of cantenary system. Which is prepared for 25kV.


It used to be a requirement to use B4 catenary (capable of 25kV) for new sections and replacement of old catenary, but I believe that requirement was dropped a while ago (can't find the source).

I have seen some recent new catenary that didn't seem to be of the B4 or other 25kV-compatible type.


----------



## da_scotty

Indeed, Zwolle-Wierden for example isn't wired with B4


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ that's sad to hear. But do the wires now being installed meet requirements for 3kV?


----------



## da_scotty

No because again there is only a potential test of 3kV. As said the goverment plan used to be to prepare the wires for 25kV, but that requirement seems to be dropped.


----------



## Wilhem275

I see there are some works between Almere Poort and Centrum, but they might just be noise barriers (may they be damned).

There's also something bigger going on just east of Almere Centrum, what's that? It looks like a proper widening to 4 tracks, but just for a brief section.

https://www.google.it/maps/@52.3763094,5.2259147,690m/data=!3m1!1e3


----------



## Bobo90

They're building a tailtrack


----------



## 3737

Some interior shot taken bij Railmagazine of the new NS Flirt.
It looks al lot like the interior used for the caf SNG.




























https://railmagazine.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/MF6_8492.jpg

Construction of the new flirt's.


----------



## Theijs

ProRail is lobbying to increase voltage from 1,5 Kv to 3 Kv. Estimated costs € 700 million.
Source: http://www.nu.nl/ondernemen/4233063/prorail-wil-meer-geld-beter-spoor.html


----------



## Suburbanist

That is a massive cop-out from plans to go to 25kV AC


----------



## Silly_Walks

Also a waste of 700 million, as it will have to be upgraded to 25kV eventually anyway, due to capacity and speed increases.

Might as well do it correct right away.

This short term thinking is devastating.


----------



## Suburbanist

The gangway passage on these new trains is much narrower than on the spacious SLT ones, which allow very easy movement between the cars...


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> That is a massive cop-out from plans to go to 25kV AC





Silly_Walks said:


> Also a waste of 700 million, as it will have to be upgraded to 25kV eventually anyway, due to capacity and speed increases.
> 
> Might as well do it correct right away.


The thing is that they can't do it correct right away. The currently used ATB system works on a frequency incompatible with 50 Hz AC. Even though that could be easily changed, the EU probably wouldn't allow it. ATB will eventually be phased out in favour of ETCS, but that will take at least 15 to 20 years. In the mean time 3 kV could be a good step up.

On the other hand, when you look back in history Dutch railways have made poor choices in the past. They started in 1908 with 10 kV 25 Hz AC, but that was dropped in 1926 in favour of 1.5 kV DC, which in the meantime had been used on other lines because it was cheaper. After the second world war no working electric 1.5 kV DC rolling stock was left, so that would have been the ideal moment to switch to 3 kV (switching to the German 15 kV would have been a bit sensitive and 25 kV wasn't feasible yet), yet they stuck to 1.5 kV DC. Since then all infrastructure has been made with 1.5 kV safety clearances, which even though cheaper, makes a switch to any other system again even more difficult.

If they had just remained with 10 kV AC longer...


----------



## MoshiAmsterdam

Silly_Walks said:


> Also a waste of 700 million, as it will have to be upgraded to 25kV eventually anyway, due to capacity and speed increases.
> 
> Might as well do it correct right away.
> 
> This short term thinking is devastating.


25kV can take decades, and who knows what better options are available by then. Only going for the ideal but most expensive solution is devastating for ones budget, and that isn't any different with railways.

It isn't a waste of 700 million anyway, to say that you'd have to know what the cost reduction / advantage is each year and how long 3kV will stay, and you don't.


----------



## Suburbanist

How much would it cost to get 25 kv AC plus the reconstruction of bridges etc? Maybe € 3-4 bln or something like that? It is not little money, but it could be tied as part of a big project to deploy ETCS, eliminate more grade crossings on busy lines etc. Since most lines have good alignment and almost all of them are flat, this would allow a system-wide maximum speed of 220 km/h with few exceptions on the current NS network.


----------



## Silly_Walks

MoshiAmsterdam said:


> 25kV can take decades, and who knows what better options are available by then. Only going for the ideal but most expensive solution is devastating for ones budget, and that isn't any different with railways.
> 
> It isn't a waste of 700 million anyway, to say that you'd have to know what the cost reduction / advantage is each year and how long 3kV will stay, and you don't.


Except that the study that has been done, already showed that in the long term, 25kV is cheaper. 3kV would be cheaper in the short term only.

Doing 3kV AND 25kV is just a waste of money.

Switching to 25kV and ERTMS doesn't have to take decades. It just takes political will. It can be done within 5 years.


----------



## MoshiAmsterdam

Silly_Walks said:


> Doing 3kV AND 25kV is just a waste of money.


You don't know that because you don't know all parameters. If there isn't enough budget for 25kV the only question is whether on 3kV is worth it's money. Knowing 25kV is a better solution doesn't change anything to that. If it's a given 25kV isn't reachable within 10 years, and 3kV returns its investments within 10 years it's a very wise decision.


----------



## Silly_Walks

25kV is attainable in 10 years. It can be done in 5.

They just lack the political will to push it through.


----------



## M-NL

When you interpret 'lack the political will' as 'the politicians only have limited resources and they consider other matters to be more urgent', then your statement is correct. Note that I totally disagree with what the politicians currently do consider more urgent matters.
Also note that those same politicians are trying to find ways to slow down the roll out of ERTMS because they find it to expensive.


----------



## Wilhem275

MoshiAmsterdam said:


> You don't know that because you don't know all parameters.


I don't have an opinion on this specific matter, but in my experience I've seen a certain attitude of some railfans to glorify the most advanced solutions just for the sake of it, without a real reason.
I've heard so many times praises for more HS lines, no matter how useful they can be. My answer is that HS is an instrument and not a goal.

I see a similar pattern in this 25 vs. 3 kV issue, or sometimes in the "ERTMS immedately no matter what" outcries (and I'm a supporter of ERTMS).

The point is that the right choice in technics is not "the best system" but the best compromise, and they're often different.

I recognize the advantages of 25k but I don't see how many low clearance spots in the Dutch network could be solved without massive works (which is also a problem in term of disruptions of main lines).
There's also the limit of rolling stock, with a lot of recent materials that cannot be scrapped and are much easier to convert to 3 kV CC than 25 AC (and to allow for mixed operations meanwhile).



I also think that, losing NL, 1,5 kV is pretty much dead in Europe: the last one standing will be half of France which -in theory- is ready for the conversion to 25 kV given the amount of dual voltage materials they have.
There could still be the limit of clearances, I don't have info about that.


----------



## MarcVD

1500 V DC : 2300 km in The Netherlands versus 5800 in France. New electrifications 
using this system will probably become very rare but there are enough km of lines already
electrified to keep the system running. And given that SNCF almost stopped investing on 
anything else than TGV those days, I do not see a conversion project starting anytime 
soon...


----------



## MarcVD

Wilhem275 said:


> are much easier to convert to 3 kV CC than 25 AC


That is something I'm not really sure. In both cases, traction motors, power 
electronics, and cabling will all have to be replaced. The only additional 
difficulty with 25 kV conversion is the physical place to install the transformer.


----------



## Suburbanist

25kV 50Hz has the advantage of being on the same frequency as the national grid...


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> That is something I'm not really sure. In both cases, traction motors, power electronics, and cabling will all have to be replaced.


You don't need to replace traction motors and the majority of the power electronics don't need to be changed either. Most modern trains, regardless AC or DC, except for some 1.5 kV DCs, are essentially running on about 3 kV DC. The AC models have an additional transformer and rectifier to produce that DC voltage. DC models are connected directly from the overhead line. That why the power rating on 3kV DC, 15 kV AC and 25 kV AC is usually about the same and slightly lower on 1.5 kV DC. Also nowadays, a DC-DC 'transformer' exist.



Suburbanist said:


> 25kV 50Hz has the advantage of being on the same frequency as the national grid...


Which is actually a disadvantage, because the national grid has three phases and the overhead wire uses just one. Thus you're always stuck with uneven phase usage, because you use at most only two of the three phases, which power plants do not like at all.


----------



## Wilhem275

M-NL said:


> That why the power rating on 3kV DC, 15 kV AC and 25 kV AC is usually about the same and slightly lower on 1.5 kV DC. Also nowadays, a DC-DC 'transformer' exist.


Yes, and the conversion itself is not a nightmare: you may even put in parallel under 3 kV two subsystems that now are directly connected to 1,5 kV (I'm simplifying to the extreme here).
This gives also the flexibility to switch immediately to 1,5 kV when needed, which will be important to avoid cutting the country in half during the conversion.
And just in case, a 3 kV train can run under 1,5, with limited performance (it happens everyday at Italian/French borders).

They'll also have to replace all the wiring needing more insulation, but I'm quite confident there won't be much to update under this point of view.
Take the new Flirts: I really don't think Stadler uses different wiring for the 3 or 1,5 kV versions, it's an industry standard.
With 25 kV this aspect would be much more difficult, needing a heavy redesign.


Overall I don't have enough data to judge if the choice is correct, but I can see many good reasons why they're going that way (and I also tend to assume they're not idiots).


----------



## M-NL

Putting 2 1.5 kV systems in series for 3 kV running used to be the trick in the time of power control using resistors. Nowadays using (additional) power electronics would be a much more practical solution. 

In the past several models of the Siemens Taurus were built. The only technical difference between the ES64U3 and ES64U4 seems to be that the capability to run on 1.5 kV DC is disabled in the software for the U3 model, hardware wise they are identical. It wouldn't surprise me if Stadler, with its highly standardised product portfolio has done the same.

Note that for instance the Belgian Desiros can't run on 1.5 kV DC, despite being suitable for 3 kV DC. Whether that's because of a technical limitation, because the software wasn't programmed to cope with that situation or it could, but isn't allowed to because it interferes with the Dutch track occupation circuits, I don't know.


----------



## Coccodrillo

M-NL said:


> Which is actually a disadvantage, because the national grid has three phases and the overhead wire uses just one. Thus you're always stuck with uneven phase usage, because you use at most only two of the three phases, which power plants do not like at all.


There is no need to use just two phases. You can use one phase and the neutral, changing the phase every X km of track, so to have a more or less balanced usage of the three-phase current coming in from the power plants (roughly, 1/3 of track-km for each phase). Or also alternate using two of the three phases, again with each combination used roughly for 1/3 of the tracks.

Note that such problems don't exist with the 15 kV 16,7 Hz system (as it is produced differently).


----------



## Suburbanist

Why did the Swiss opted for 16.7Hz instead of 50Hz?


----------



## Wilhem275

I have a question about the usage of slab track in the Netherlands (we already mentioned it a few months ago).

It seems that for many decades slab track was preferred by NS for almost all of its "modern works" from the '70s, any tunnel, any viaduct, even simple overpasses or small bridges, including the full HSL Zuid.
I believe no other European network made use of slab track like NS did.

In recent works (roughly last 10-15 years) I notice that slab track was completely abandoned by ProRail in favor of the classic ballast, including the whole Betuwelijn and any work going on right now (OV SAAL, for example).

This change was quite radical and it is probably supported by a specific policy and by experiences with the large amount of previous works.
So, I'm quite curious to understand the reasons behind this choice


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> Why did the Swiss opted for 16.7Hz instead of 50Hz?


Because they started electrification in 1919 when 50 Hz power wasn't viable yet. By the time 50 Hz was starting to be viable - in the 50s - the network was already nearly 100% electrified with 15 kV 16.7 Hz.


----------



## Coccodrillo

At the beginning of XX century there weren't many options. One was DC electrification, the other low frequency AC.

At that time AC monophase motors produced too many sparks on the collector (a part of electric motors) if working on high frequency, and so needed a low frequency to work. That's why they choose 16 2/3 Hz, which is exactly 1/3 of 50 Hz, the frequency of the main network (in Europe, a great part of the world uses 60 Hz).

Converting frequency is not easy, so the first way was simply putting a 50 Hz motor mechanically coupled to a generator with 3 times less poles, which gave 50 / 3 = 16,666666...Hz (+/- a tolerance).

While this anormal frequency required a separate supply network, it had other advantages over DC. Some countries though the other way round (like Italy which choose 3 kV DC), deciding that the advantages of DC were higher than its disadvantages. While in the 1920s both systems where roughly on the same level, today it is clear that AC systems are better (even at 16,7 Hz).

A wide range of frequencies have been tried, both on railway traction and industrial networks, but today the only frequencies used on large networks are 50 and 60 Hz for much of the world's main electrical network, 16,7 Hz for railways mainly in German-speaking and Scandinavian countries, and 25 Hz on the Northeast Corridor in the USA.

Note that 16 2/3 and 16,7 Hz are not the same thing, the explanation can certainly be found also in English (here in Italian: http://www.sguggiari.ch/3_16_2_3_Hz_o_16_7_Hz.php).

From a performance point of view, 25 kV 50 Hz, 25 kV 60 Hz and 15 kV 16,7 Hz (and the 12 kV 25 Hz on the Northeast Corridor) are roughly equal, so there is no need to covert 16,7 Hz network to 50 Hz, because there is already a fully functional 16,7 Hz production and distribution infrastructure. That's different for new rail electrifications, which use either 50 or 60 Hz depending of the main industrial network of the region.

Maybe it would be practical to standardize the electric network of the Northeast Corridor (and its branches), as it is relatively short and electrified with three different currents (25 kV 60 Hz, 12.5 kV 60 Hz, 12 kV 25 Hz).


----------



## hammersklavier

Coccodrillo said:


> At the beginning of XX century there weren't many options. One was DC electrification, the other low frequency AC.
> 
> At that time AC monophase motors produced too many sparks on the collector (a part of electric motors) if working on high frequency, and so needed a low frequency to work. That's why they choose 16 2/3 Hz, which is exactly 1/3 of 50 Hz, the frequency of the main network (in Europe, a great part of the world uses 60 Hz).
> 
> Converting frequency is not easy, so the first way was simply putting a 50 Hz motor mechanically coupled to a generator with 3 times less poles, which gave 50 / 3 = 16,666666...Hz (+/- a tolerance).
> 
> While this anormal frequency required a separate supply network, it had other advantages over DC. Some countries though the other way round (like Italy which choose 3 kV DC), deciding that the advantages of DC were higher than its disadvantages. While in the 1920s both systems where roughly on the same level, today it is clear that AC systems are better (even at 16,7 Hz).
> 
> A wide range of frequencies have been tried, both on railway traction and industrial networks, but today the only frequencies used on large networks are 50 and 60 Hz for much of the world's main electrical network, 16,7 Hz for railways mainly in German-speaking and Scandinavian countries, and 25 Hz on the Northeast Corridor in the USA.
> 
> Note that 16 2/3 and 16,7 Hz are not the same thing, the explanation can certainly be found also in English (here in Italian: http://www.sguggiari.ch/3_16_2_3_Hz_o_16_7_Hz.php).
> 
> From a performance point of view, 25 kV 50 Hz, 25 kV 60 Hz and 15 kV 16,7 Hz (and the 12 kV 25 Hz on the Northeast Corridor) are roughly equal, so there is no need to covert 16,7 Hz network to 50 Hz, because there is already a fully functional 16,7 Hz production and distribution infrastructure. That's different for new rail electrifications, which use either 50 or 60 Hz depending of the main industrial network of the region.
> 
> Maybe it would be practical to standardize the electric network of the Northeast Corridor (and its branches), as it is relatively short and electrified with three different currents (25 kV 60 Hz, 12.5 kV 60 Hz, 12 kV 25 Hz).


I'll note that the electrical network south of New York is obsolete for a secondary reason -- the catenary is variable-tension. When it was first installed in the 1930s there was no clear superiority (and few trains went faster than 100 mph anyhow); nowadays, constant-tension catenary is needed if trains are ever to go faster than 110 mph south of New York.

Converting the NEC to a single catenary standard (and applying it to the rest of the country) is undoubtedly a massive benefit, one helped along by the ex-PRR electrical network being undermaintained and obsolete in its physical plant; a major issue that Europe's multiple nets of incompatible legacy networks incurs is the need to install multiple sets of power collection equipment in international trains, thereby making them heavier. But of course the European railroad power nets are also much better maintained.


----------



## M-NL

Coccodrillo said:


> From a performance point of view, 25 kV 50 Hz, 25 kV 60 Hz and 15 kV 16,7 Hz (and the 12 kV 25 Hz on the Northeast Corridor) are roughly equal, so there is no need to covert 16,7 Hz network to 50 Hz, because there is already a fully functional 16,7 Hz production and distribution infrastructure. That's different for new rail electrifications, which use either 50 or 60 Hz depending of the main industrial network of the region.


There is one 'small' point though. Power frequency is one of the main parameters determining transformer size. The higher the frequency the smaller the transformer can be. There is table on page 3 of this article. It roughly states that a 16,7Hz transformer is about 3% less efficient (that's a lot of extra heat!) and also about twice as heavy as a 50 Hz transformer. ABBs solution is interesting though: rectify the high voltage, invert it to a high frequency of 5 kHz to 10 kHz, then send it through a transformer and then rectify again for the inverters driving the motors. Despite all the extra components efficiency is said to be over 99%, irregardless of the power frequency.


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> You don't need to replace traction motors.


Unfortunately you do, because of insulation. If used under 3 kV, motors have 
to be insulated for 3 kV, including the wires in the motor coils. The fact that they are used two in series doesn't change anything. Not doing it would be a major security hazard. So yes you might keep them, but then you need to 
rewire them completely, which would probably be more expensive than 
purchasing anew. 



M-NL said:


> and the majority of the power electronics don't need to be changed either


3 cases to consider :
- old equipment still using resistor sets : to be completely changed because of insulation reasons, like said above. But I suppose you don't have so much of
that anymore...

- DC serial motors with choppers : that I suppose you still have a lot of. Has to be completely renew because the thyristor chains have now to withstand a voltage of 3 kV rather than 1500 (but only half the current, so you need more in series and less in parallel)

3 phases motors : there you have more chances to be able to re-use most of the components, indeed. 



M-NL said:


> Most modern trains, regardless AC or DC, except for some 1.5 kV DCs, are essentially running on about 3 kV DC. The AC models have an additional transformer and rectifier to produce that DC voltage.


For that I would like to know your source because as far as I know, 
the "internal power bus" of a multivoltage train is usually 1500V, not 3000.


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> ABBs solution is interesting though: rectify the high voltage, invert it to a high frequency of 5 kHz to 10 kHz, then send it through a transformer and then rectify again for the inverters driving the motors. Despite all the extra components efficiency is said to be over 99%, irregardless of the power frequency.


This is basically the same way as all those universal wall warts that charge our mobile phones, and tons of other devices work, but scaled up. A nice thing of this ABB system is that this in fact gives you an universal power supply for locomotives. So your train can run on any DC or AC voltage...


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> Converting frequency is not easy, so the first way was simply putting a 50 Hz motor mechanically coupled to a generator with 3 times less poles, which gave 50 / 3 = 16,666666...Hz (+/- a tolerance).


Actually the way most railways solved this is by just having their own power stations. SBB produces almost all its electricity itself.


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> Unfortunately you do, because of insulation. If used under 3 kV, motors have to be insulated for 3 kV, including the wires in the motor coils.


That would be true if the motors were exposed to 3kV. They aren't, because when you add a DC-DC 'tranformer' that produces 1.5 kV for the rest of the train nothing changes. It is a stop gap measure though. Completely changing the train for 3 kV would be preferable.



MarcVD said:


> For that I would like to know your source because as far as I know,
> the "internal power bus" of a multivoltage train is usually 1500V, not 3000.


The baureihe 145/146 have an intermediate DC circuit voltage of up to 2800V for instance. If you take a look at the electric schematic of the Taurus 1216 you see that in DC mode the overhead line is connected directly to the intermediate circuit. Both can be found at drehstromloks.de.
This wikipedia article states 'The N700 Shinkansen uses a three-level converter to convert 25 kV single-phase AC to 1,520 V AC (via transformer) to 3,000 V DC (via phase-controlled rectifier with thyristor) to a maximum 2,300 V three-phase AC (via a variable voltage, variable frequency inverter using IGBTs with pulse-width modulation) to run the motors.'


----------



## DingeZ

MarcVD said:


> Unfortunately you do, because of insulation. If used under 3 kV, motors have
> to be insulated for 3 kV, including the wires in the motor coils. The fact that they are used two in series doesn't change anything. Not doing it would be a major security hazard. So yes you might keep them, but then you need to
> rewire them completely, which would probably be more expensive than
> purchasing anew.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 cases to consider :
> - old equipment still using resistor sets : to be completely changed because of insulation reasons, like said above. But I suppose you don't have so much of
> that anymore...
> 
> - DC serial motors with choppers : that I suppose you still have a lot of. Has to be completely renew because the thyristor chains have now to withstand a voltage of 3 kV rather than 1500 (but only half the current, so you need more in series and less in parallel)
> 
> 3 phases motors : there you have more chances to be able to re-use most of the components, indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> For that I would like to know your source because as far as I know,
> the "internal power bus" of a multivoltage train is usually 1500V, not 3000.


Let's see.
Resistor sets: Mat 64' (withdrawal planned next month), first 50 sets of ICM (withdrawal around 2022-2025)
Choppers: SGM (withdrawal planned 2018/2019), other 94 sets of ICM, built between 1987 and 1993

The rest is all three-phase.


----------



## Momo1435

DDZ/NID in The Hague 


IMG_8837 by Momo1435, on Flickr


----------



## Wilhem275

Weirdest train even, undoubtably  (but also exceptionally comfortable)


----------



## da_scotty

I like them as they are very comfortable, there are only a few downsides;
- really really small trash cans
- seat trays are kind of far away from the seat (akward to work on a laptop)
- very bright light

Plus:
- smooth
- lovely chairs
- design elements
- wide doors/stairs


----------



## suasion

^^^^^^

I really like the corner couches in these units.

I hate the fact that there is no positive lock when the door is closed or open, it just wildly swings about instead, really dangerous when people let go of them and the following person is unaware that it is going to swing into their face.


----------



## Suburbanist

I like the trains, but they have some construction problems, minor things like seats some seats that are wearing off too soon, or toilette doors that are misaligned etc.


----------



## 3737

The first 3 Flirt´s arrived in Maastricht today.








https://www.facebook.com/NedTrain/photos/pcb.1072492499461334/1072492332794684/?type=3&theater

3 generations.








Link

The new flirt´s got a revised livery around the doors.








Link

Also SLT will be refurbished (dutch) in 2017


----------



## 3737

Today the first NS Flirt made its first testdrive on Dutch soil.








Link

Also it looks like it won't take long for we see the first refurbished VIRM for a testdrive.
Here is VIRMm with a part of it's new livery and with the new European door livery guidelines which are also shown on the new NS Flirt. 








Link


----------



## Wilhem275

I saw also pictures of a R-Net Flirt, are they in test as well?


----------



## Slagathor

Yeah, those have been running past HS and Laan van NOI. If you'd still been living here, you'd have seen them.


----------



## AlexNL

The R-Net FLIRT has been making test runs for a few months now, they'll be entering service this december. The NS FLIRTs will probably see an earlier debut into service, as they are needed very quickly.


----------



## Wilhem275

Is there any substantial difference between the two?



Slagathor said:


> Yeah, those have been running past HS and Laan van NOI. If you'd still been living here, you'd have seen them.


Damn, the guy who got my room didn't have my same idea to put a webcam out of the window... I had the best view on the line


----------



## 3737

The only differences I could find is that they are shorter and don't have a cabin door.


----------



## M-NL

Derived from the other models in service it is also likely the axle arrangement differs.
It seems that Stadler uses one driven axle per car. A 2 car version is thus usually a Bo'2'2', a 3 car version a 1A'2'2'Bo' and a 4 car version a Bo‘2‘2‘2‘Bo‘.
This seems to be supported by the video you posted: When the train passes by the head end produces the distinct power electronics sound, the rear end doesn't.


----------



## Attus

Hello,

is it possible in Rotterdam Centraal to make photos of the trains without having any ticket (or having only Welcome Rotterdam Card)?


----------



## Suburbanist

Attus said:


> Hello,
> 
> is it possible in Rotterdam Centraal to make photos of the trains without having any ticket (or having only Welcome Rotterdam Card)?


No, there are gates on all entrances to the main concourse that gives access to platforms.

If you have an OV-Chipkaart, you can enter and exit at no cost within 35 minutes* (and repeat the operation again).

Or you buy a 2nd class ticket to Rotterdam Blaak for € 2,20, the shortest possible train route within Rotterdam, and spend a lot of time in the platforms before boarding one of the trains to Blaak (there are several every hour). You can even go back walking on the former-railway-turned-boulevard. 

*I'm not exactly sure how long is the time allowance.


----------



## Attus

^^Thank you :-/


----------



## 3737

After 52 years the era of mat 64 has officially ended.
Although the plan was to decommission mat 64 in December 2015 the last active service was on march the 30th this year.

The prototype build in 1961.








link

Mat 64 (plan V) on its last days of active service.








Link

I will miss its iconic acceleration noise.


----------



## Suburbanist

How is the Betuwelijn doing, in terms of traffic?


----------



## Wilhem275

3737 said:


> I will miss its iconic acceleration noise.


Typical of old CC engines, I always appreciated it too


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> How is the Betuwelijn doing, in terms of traffic?


Stable number of passengers. The service between Arnhem CS and Tiel has been maintained in the 2017 timetable.


----------



## Suburbanist

Oh sorry I was referring to the betuweroute, the freight only link.


----------



## MoshiAmsterdam

Like he didn't knew The capacity of the Betuweroute has been reduced because of the 3rd track that's being build in Germany. So hard to draw any conclusions based on the traffic numbers at the moment.


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> No, there are gates on all entrances to the main concourse that gives access to platforms.
> 
> If you have an OV-Chipkaart, you can enter and exit at no cost within 35 minutes* (and repeat the operation again).
> 
> *I'm not exactly sure how long is the time allowance.


It's 60 minutes, actually. And in Rotterdam there are validators on the platform, they've been placed for international travellers but anyone can touch in/out on the platform.


----------



## Wilhem275

Please take a look at this short video: https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/...f_t=comment_mention&notif_id=1461487747356525

Well, may I be damned, I'm struggling to understand where this was taken and still I have no idea.

The steamer is supposed to come from Germany, the CNL runs Amsterdam - Utrecht - Arnhem - Cologne. 4-tracks line, there aren't many such stretches along that route (Bijlmer Arena - Utrecht), but the setting is wrong.

Help me...


----------



## K_

Wilhem275 said:


> Please take a look at this short video: https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/...f_t=comment_mention&notif_id=1461487747356525
> 
> Well, may I be damned, I'm struggling to understand where this was taken and still I have no idea.
> 
> The steamer is supposed to come from Germany, the CNL runs Amsterdam - Utrecht - Arnhem - Cologne. 4-tracks line, there aren't many such stretches along that route (Bijlmer Arena - Utrecht), but the setting is wrong.
> 
> Help me...


This is at the Vijfwalbrug in Houten. This is on the line from Utrecht to 's Hertogenbosch and Eindhoven, which means that the CNL train was (as happens) routed via Venlo.


----------



## Wilhem275

Dammit! I was sure it was that part of the line, but I couldn't locate that bridge... because GMaps is still to be updated icard: Thank you.


----------



## 3737

Eurostar announced that it will start an Amsterdam/London service in 2017 

Only 2 days after the announcement the E320 drove for the first time on Dutch soil. :banana:








Link


----------



## samsam538

*Abellio NRW Flirt*

A few days ago, an Abellio NRW Flirt arrived in the Netherlands.

Abellio Deutschland ET25.2302 by Het Treinenhoekje, on Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

NS is starting a campaign for better train punctuality. It comprises station posters, video silent announcements on station and train information systems and some spot videos.

The campaign reads something like "whistle = no boarding". They want to cut people mad-dashing through closing doors when the conductors blew a whistle for departure.


----------



## suasion

I've seen that all over the place. Do they really believe people running late are going to settle for a 15 -30 minute wait? 
After my fun Journeys with NS last Thursday, I would say there is a lot more worthwhile things they could putting effort into.


----------



## MrAronymous

Like installing countdown clocks everywhere or invent a hurry-up-almost-leaving signal.


----------



## M-NL

In Japan they have departure melodies indicating the train is about to depart. Exactly when the melody finishes, there is a warning chime, the doors close and the train leaves.

I don't like that the door closing procedure is started about 20 seconds before the scheduled departure time. Why can't they change that to starting the door closing procedure at the scheduled departure time? This won't prevent last second mad-dashing, but at least there's no 'the train departed early' argument any more.


----------



## sven_engelen

That is a good idea though, but only if there will be a sprinter line between Venlo and Eindhoven so the Intercity doesn't have to stop at Blerick, Horst-Sevenum and Deurne all the time...


----------



## Slagathor

If you think that's bad, try reaching Vlissingen by train.


----------



## Suburbanist

sven_engelen said:


> That is a good idea though, but only if there will be a sprinter line between Venlo and Eindhoven so the Intercity doesn't have to stop at Blerick, Horst-Sevenum and Deurne all the time...


Currently, all Intercity trains already stop in all these stations (and also in Helmond). The trip takes 39 minutes between Eindhoven and Venlo. I don't envision that changing.


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> If you think that's bad, try reaching Vlissingen by train.


Zeeland provincial government chose to have the IC stop at all stations west of Bergen op Zoom instead of having some minor stations with little use closed OR financing a local sprinter train. The overall message here is that cities located at the extreme ends of the country suffer by not having faster connections to key rail hubs. Happens to affect Vlissingen, Enschede, Heerlen... At least Zealand has an electrified line instead of the diesel railways providing service to places like Venray, Harlingen or Sneek.


----------



## da_scotty

Suburbanist said:


> I read somewhere they want to swap IC routes so that there will be IC Venlo_ schiphol (instead of Den Haag) and IC Den Haag (instead of schiphol) - Maastricht /Heerlen


I believe the routes will be:
(Alkmaar) -Amsterdam - Eindhoven - Maastricht
Schiphol - Amsterdam Zuid - Eindhoven -* Venlo/Heerlen (split train)*

Den Haag - Rotterdam - _High speed line_ - Breda - Eindhoven

In future a 5th and 6th intercity will take the Venlo branch, eliminating the split in Eindhoven.

The Eindhoven-Den Haag and Venlo/Heerlen - Schiphol will offer cross-platform connections at Eindhoven.


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> Zeeland provincial government chose to have the IC stop at all stations west of Bergen op Zoom instead of having some minor stations with little use closed OR financing a local sprinter train. The overall message here is that cities located at the extreme ends of the country suffer by not having faster connections to key rail hubs. Happens to affect Vlissingen, Enschede, Heerlen... At least Zealand has an electrified line instead of the diesel railways providing service to places like Venray, Harlingen or Sneek.


I am aware. I worked for the provincial government around the time that this was decided. I argued against it and felt the smaller stations should be closed as per the initial suggestion from NS.


----------



## Wilhem275

Slagathor said:


> I am aware. I worked for the provincial government around the time that this was decided. I argued against it *and felt the smaller stations should be closed* as per the initial suggestion from NS.


So you got yourself attacked by those lovely people who believe it's their right to live alone and far from everything AND have frequent and direct services to anywhere?
Been there, done that 



da_scotty said:


> I believe the routes will be:
> (Alkmaar) -Amsterdam - Eindhoven - Maastricht
> Schiphol - Amsterdam Zuid - Eindhoven -* Venlo/Heerlen (split train)*
> 
> Den Haag - Rotterdam - _High speed line_ - Breda - Eindhoven
> 
> In future a 5th and 6th intercity will take the Venlo branch, eliminating the split in Eindhoven.
> 
> The Eindhoven-Den Haag and Venlo/Heerlen - Schiphol will offer cross-platform connections at Eindhoven.





Suburbanist said:


> I read somewhere they want to swap IC routes so that there will be IC Venlo_ schiphol (instead of Den Haag) and IC Den Haag (instead of schiphol) - Maastricht /Heerlen


I found this NS image, but it's not clear about what goes where past Eindhoven:









My best guess is that the Schiphol will go to Venlo (yellow line) and the two remaing A'dam CS will proceed to the south.
Probably they'll all be distanced 10-10-10, to give a regular offer between Amsterdam and Eindhoven (with one out of three with a connection in Utrecht).

I remember AlexNL mentioned the DH-Eindhoven via HSL, but I believed that was going to happen with the new Alstom IC.
But that train was supposed to terminate in Eindhoven, while the Venlo branch was to be given to something else (from Amsterdam or Schiphol, then).
It makes sense, Venlo has no connection to Amsterdam today.




3737 said:


> ^^ This is going to happen after December this year!
> The controversial thing is that the Benelux will be slower then it was before the HSL/Fyra era.


So, it means Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - HSL - Antwerpen?

About it being slower, I often hear this complaint about many IC services all over Europe, but to me it's completely normal than a "historical" IC stops being very fast after a parallel HS service is introduced.
If one is interested in reduced travel times from Amsterdam to Brussel, that train is no more the answer.
Actually, since a faster option will be offered to Schiphol and Amsterdam, I'd have the IC Brussel stop in Leiden, Lan van NOI and Delft too. The time difference with a normal IC is so ridiculous* that it makes no sense to cut out relevant basins.

*I just checked. It's very ridiculous: despite having FIVE less stops, and being capable of 160 km/h between Hoofddorp and Mariahove, from Schiphol to Dordrecht the IC Brussel is 2' _slower _than the usual Vlissingen IC :nuts: Now _that_ is something to complain about!

For 2017, I quote from infrasite.nl:


> *De grootste veranderingen op een rij*
> 
> Dankzij de oplevering van het project OV Saal rijden er vanaf december 2016 meer NS-treinen tussen Almere/Lelystad en Schiphol en tussen Amsterdam Centraal en Breukelen
> Dankzij aanpassingen van sporen in Assen kan er vanaf mei 2017 een nieuwe NS spitstrein rijden tussen Groningen – Assen.
> Er is reistijdverbetering van de intercity Leeuwarden naar de randstad door kortere halteertijd in Zwolle en er is reistijdverbetering Intercity Zwolle – Roosendaal tussen Arnhem en Nijmegen.
> Nieuwe treindienst Arnhem – Emmerich – Oberhausen - Düsseldorf (Abellio).
> Arriva is de nieuwe vervoerder in Limburg op de trajecten Nijmegen – Roermond, Roermond – Maastricht Randwyck, Sittard – Kerkrade en Heerlen – Maastricht Randwyck. Er gaan meer treinen rijden tussen Maastricht – Maastricht Randwyck.






Of which the Arnhem - Düsseldorf is actually the most interesting thing, it fills a HUGE hole in Germany - NL connections!


----------



## sven_engelen

Suburbanist said:


> Currently, all Intercity trains already stop in all these stations (and also in Helmond). The trip takes 39 minutes between Eindhoven and Venlo. I don't envision that changing.


Well, i have to take the train to Helmond every each day. The intercity goes from Venlo to Eindhoven. A sprinter services the small stations between deurne and Eindhoven. If the sprinter goes all the way to Venlo, the intercity is able to skip all small stations and go all the way to venlo in 30 or even less mins instead of 40


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## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> I remember AlexNL mentioned the DH-Eindhoven via HSL, but I believed that was going to happen with the new Alstom IC.
> But that train was supposed to terminate in Eindhoven, while the Venlo branch was to be given to something else (from Amsterdam or Schiphol, then).
> It makes sense, Venlo has no connection to Amsterdam today.


No, re-routing the IC Den Haag - Venlo to R'Dam [HSL] - Breda is already planned to start later this year. The discussion is whether these trains will already take over trains currently routed Schiphol-Utrecht-Maastricht/Heerlen.

I'm not sure they'd like to make them split trains as another colleague mentioned. They got rid of train splitting in Sittard couple years ago. Moreover, these trains going via HSL use just locos. They are not EMUs so splitting them would take quite a time. It is better just to use the current scheme of matching each IC to either Maastricht or Heerlen to another train waiting there for the other destination.



> So, it means Rotterdam - HSL - Breda - HSL - Antwerpen?


Yes. I wonder how long reversing in Breda would take. It would be more interesting, now that Breda station is finished and ready, to have this international train from Belgium terminate in Breda, with ready connections to other fast trains from there.

I write this because these trains to/from Belgium appear to get delayed very often. When this happen, from what I noticed, the practice is now held them even later as not to disrupt the congested paths between R'dam and Dordrecht, which are heavily used by freight trains as well. 



> *I just checked. It's very ridiculous: despite having FIVE less stops, and being capable of 160 km/h between Hoofddorp and Mariahove, from Schiphol to Dordrecht the IC Brussel is 2' _slower _than the usual Vlissingen IC :nuts: Now _that_ is something to complain about!


The IC-Brussels train stay on platforms for a significantly longer time than regular intercity trains. I've noticed it in Schiphol, in Den Haag HS and Rotterdam C.

I think they should have built HSL slightly different, with a deep tunnel (following the metro tunnel of Randstad rail) that build transversal platforms underneath Rotterdam Centraal in a NW-SE alignment, and then extended with deep tunnels all the way to Barendrecht (where the HSL starts). This would have been feasible, and would have speed up trains up to 8 min! And Rotterdam would be a 2-level station (exc. the Randstad Rail platforms).


----------



## Slagathor

You have an odd definition of the word feasible.


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## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> You have an odd definition of the word feasible.


They did something similar in Antwerpen (if shorter) and London (different scope). 

Do you think a deep bored tunnel (60m below surface) would have been unfeasible in Rotterdam?


----------



## Theijs

Suburbanist said:


> Do you think a deep bored tunnel (60m below surface) would have been unfeasible in Rotterdam?


Don't forget the existing metro under R'dam CS. And such a deep and long tunnel for 8 minutes time saving? I guess it will have a negative cost/benefit ratio to justify the financial investment.


----------



## Wilhem275

And the fact that the Willemsspoortunnel is already an investment that must be used. And the fact that a separate HSL-tunnel would not allow cross-platform connections or any other routing (Rotterdam also allows for potential HSL-Zuid - Utrecht paths).

And the fact that Antwerpen had a _slightly _bigger limit than Rotterdam...


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## Suburbanist

The tunnel under the Maas is already quite busy, being used by 412 scheduled trains daily on weekdays, plus many freight trains. As Dordretch bridges are a major bottleneck, any delay further south ripples through with limited spare paths.

Speaking of it, did the tracks at now defunct hofplein station of randstad rail connected with the Dordretch line before they built the tunnel under the Maas?


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## Wilhem275

But still very far from saturation. Today, max 14 t/h + some freight, over 4 tracks. In comparison, the Schiphol tunnel is exploding


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## thtc

Suburbanist said:


> The tunnel under the Maas is already quite busy, being used by 412 scheduled trains daily on weekdays, plus many freight trains. As Dordretch bridges are a major bottleneck, any delay further south ripples through with limited spare paths.
> 
> Speaking of it, did the tracks at now defunct hofplein station of randstad rail connected with the Dordretch line before they built the tunnel under the Maas?



There has never been a connection between the Hofpleinline and the Dordrecht line at the level of Hofplein station, but only in Rotterdam North via the Utrecht line tot Rotterdam Cetral (with potential onward connection in the direction of Dordrecht).


----------



## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> The tunnel under the Maas is already quite busy, being used by 412 scheduled trains daily on weekdays, plus many freight trains. As Dordretch bridges are a major bottleneck, any delay further south ripples through with limited spare paths.


I see now you added some info later. In general, keep in mind that capacity should never be valued in terms of trains per day. At least trains per hour; even better every half hour (since NS has a 30' repetitive schedule).

As of today, every 30' there are at most:
2 IC (Den Haag) - (Dordrecht) 
2 Sprinters
1 IC Den Haag - Venlo
1 IC Direct to Breda
1 IC Brussel
1 Thalys
+ some freights.

At Dordrecht there are less passenger trains (and they will be even less) but there's probably much more freight traffic, south of Kijfhoek.


----------



## Slagathor

Kijfhoek is pretty hopeless: freight trains from the sea port of Vlissingen that wanna go to Antwerp, have to go to Kijfhoek and turn around. hno:


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> I see now you added some info later. In general, keep in mind that capacity should never be valued in terms of trains per day. At least trains per hour; even better every half hour (since NS has a 30' repetitive schedule).
> 
> As of today, every 30' there are at most:
> 2 IC (Den Haag) - (Dordrecht)
> 2 Sprinters
> 1 IC Den Haag - Venlo
> 1 IC Direct to Breda
> 1 IC Brussel
> 1 Thalys
> + some freights.
> 
> At Dordrecht there are less passenger trains (and they will be even less) but there's probably much more freight traffic, south of Kijfhoek.


Don't forget the Intercity Dordrecht-Amsterdam via Haarlem.


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## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> Kijfhoek is pretty hopeless: freight trains from the sea port of Vlissingen that wanna go to Antwerp, have to go to Kijfhoek and turn around. hno:


Why can't they turn around in Roosendaal. There is so much idle space there.


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## Wilhem275

They may need some rearrangement before going en route. But yet it's quite a lot of back-and-forth for that job...



Suburbanist said:


> Don't forget the Intercity Dordrecht-Amsterdam via Haarlem.


Yep, it's one of the "2 IC (Den Haag) - (Dordrecht)": 1 Vlissingen - Lelystad C. via Schiphol + 1 Dordrecht - A'dam via Haarlem 

Since december Dordrecht will be left with its 2 IC and 2 Sprinters.

So, between Rotterdam and Breda via HSL (every 60'):
2 IC Direct A'dam - Breda
2 IC Den Haag - Eindhoven - Venlo?
1 IC Brussel

And, to make it even better, any plans to extend an Utrecht - Rotterdam all the way to Breda? 


One day I'll finally understand why the hell so many people keeps moving around the country all day long :lol: A friend's theory is that they put all housing in one city, all jobs in another, all restaurants in a third one... and all toilets in yet another one :lol:


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> Why can't they turn around in Roosendaal. There is so much idle space there.





Wilhem275 said:


> They may need some rearrangement before going en route. But yet it's quite a lot of back-and-forth for that job...


Oops it seems I misremembered that. I checked the thread and found this post by Momo:



Momo1435 said:


> Loco reversals are indeed prohibited in Roosendaal out of safety concerns (mostly due to a string of incidents a couple of years ago). But when only a loco reversal is needed the trains don't have to travel all the way to Kijfhoek, it can already be done at Lage Zwaluwe. It doesn't really happen that often since most freight cars from Vlissingen to Belgium do pass Kijfhoek anyway. That's because almost all mixed freight trains from DB Schenker in the Netherlands is routed via Kijfhoek. There are a couple of trains from some places in the Netherlands that are not Kijfhoek where there's enough traffic directly to Köln Gremberg or Hagen Vorhalle. Since DB Schenker doesn't have it's own yard in Belgium they don't deliver the freight-cars directly to SNCB/NMBS Logistics yard at Antwerp.
> 
> The NMBS or any other company also don't have any scheduled direct freight trains from Vlissingen to Belgium.


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## Suburbanist

Speaking of Lage Zwaule, is it the NS-served station with least daily use? Did it use to serve some defunct-and-demolished big factory or something like that? Or was it just a convenient point near the bifurcation of Brabant and Belgium lines where they decided to build and operate a station (something that is otherwise quite rare in Netherlands).


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## Theijs

Suburbanist said:


> Speaking of Lage Zwaule...


The Moerdijk branche line connects at Lage Zwaluwe with the Dutch main railway network, be it to Kijfhoek, Eindhoven/Germany or Roosendaal/Antwerp (as well as the port of Vlissingen Sloehaven). So enough for Lage Zwaluwe to be a Cargo hub.


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## Momo1435

Lage Zwaluwe is busier then some of the smaller stations on the Zeeuwse Lijn (Roosendaal - Vlissingen). It serves the villages of Lage Zwaluwe, Moerdijk & Zevenbergschenhoek.

It's an old station, it opened together with the opening of the line from Breda to Moerdijk in 1866. For the 1st 6 years this line terminated at Moerdijk where there was a boat connection to Rotterdam. In 1872 the Moerdijk Bridge opened, before that Lage Zwaluwe was used as a construction railway yard for the bridge. The opening of the bridge was the start of the station becoming a proper railway junction. In 1876 the line from Roosendaal was connected with the Moerdijk Bridge via Lage Zwaluwe (this line would also terminate at Moerdijk before, but there was a direct line from Zevenbergen to this little town which is now more known for it's harbor / industrial complex). In 1886 the 5 branche line from Lage Zwaluwe was opened, this was the line to 's Hertogenbosch. This one is now still in use (since 1950) as an industrial line to Oosterhout. The small branche to Moerdijk was already closed in 1928. The much newer branche line to the Moerdijk industrial area follows a completely different route then the old line. 

Being on this junction gave the station it's right to exist. Until the whole rationalisation of the timetable with the Spoorslag '70 program which included the introduction of the Intercity trains from 1970s many long distance trains did stop there, to offer connections to the other branche lines. 

(most info from stationsweb.nl)


Still being a junction is probably the most important reason why it's still open. There's also a free P+R (Park + Ride) facility at the station.


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## sven_engelen

Does that mean that there will be only VIRM trains on that traject? Because it's a very busy traject and 4 icm 4's from Eindhoven to Schiphol is way too long right?


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## The Polwoman

Suburbanist said:


> Why can't they turn around in Roosendaal. There is so much idle space there.


I think it wasn't even for capacity or anything, rather than local nimbies. At the other side there are nimbies complaining beyond Roosendaal because of that.


Further news: a painful mistake. No train traffic in Zealand this weekend because of planned works, which were postponed so there are no works but no passenger train will service! hno:

http://www.bndestem.nl/regio/zeelan...an-het-spoor-maar-tóch-geen-treinen-1.6332632


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## AlexNL

Regarding the 2017 timetable:
- The IC Den Haag - Venlo will be reduced to Den Haag - Eindhoven and will use the high speed line. NS is going to use a composition of Traxx + 9 ICR coaches + Traxx.
- The Beneluxtrein will be routed over Breda. Dordrecht and Roosendaal will no longer be served, instead Breda and Noorderkempen will see additional stops.

However, some delays are going to happen:
1) As of december 2016, the Den Haag - Eindhoven train will be split in Breda as NS is incapable of getting enough drivers trained for Traxx and HSL. With the april 2017 timetable update, this will become one through series again.
2) The rerouting of the Beneluxtrein does not take place until april 2017 either. This is because Bombardier can't get their act together, the necessary software patches to allow the Traxx locos to run on the Belgian part of the HSL are still not finished.

The Belgian part of the HSL infrastructure is different than the Dutch part. The safety and signalling systems were provided by a different supplier (Alstom) and they use some features which aren't being used in the Netherlands. The software on the Traxx locos has to be updated to work with this, too.


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## Suburbanist

That means Breda station will make full use of its passenger side infrastructure


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## da_scotty

AlexNL said:


> Regarding the 2017 timetable:
> - The IC Den Haag - Venlo will be reduced to Den Haag - Eindhoven and will use the high speed line. NS is going to use a composition of Traxx + 9 ICR coaches + Traxx.
> 
> However, some delays are going to happen:
> 1) As of december 2016, the Den Haag - Eindhoven train will be split in Breda as NS is incapable of getting enough drivers trained for Traxx and HSL. With the april 2017 timetable update, this will become one through series again.


Do you know how this will effect the time needed to change from the (future)IC1900 (Den Haag-Breda-(Eindhoven)) and the IC3600 (Roosendaal-Zwolle) and vice versa. It's currently 20minutes waiting, realy annoying.

The NS website is blank after 10 december, but I believe the timetable is finished?


----------



## AlexNL

da_scotty said:


> Do you know how this will effect the time needed to change from the (future)IC1900 (Den Haag-Breda-(Eindhoven)) and the IC3600 (Roosendaal-Zwolle) and vice versa. It's currently 20minutes waiting, realy annoying.


The whole timetable in Brabant will be revised, so the IC3600 is likely to be affected as well. What the consequences of that will be, I don't know.


> The NS website is blank after 10 december, but I believe the timetable is finished?


The timetable is practically finished, but changes can still be made (late path requests). The deadline for this is October 10th, 2016. After that date, the timetable is finalised and published.


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## da_scotty

^^ ah well, it' cant get worse then 20min.


----------



## The Polwoman

*New railway station Breda officially opened*

State secretary of traffic and transport Sharon Dijksma has officially opened Breda railway station at 15:30 this afternoon after a four-year major overhaul.

http://www.bndestem.nl/regio/breda/breda/nieuw-station-breda-officieel-geopend-video-s-1.6355394

The previous station from 1974 has been demolished for 99% (apart from two dissonant kiosks) and a much larger building came in place, with below the tracks about 5000 square meters of hall space (including tunnel, not including shops and restaurants, my estimation, the old one was under 1000m2, also including the tunnel) and above 6 platform tracks and one large bus platform parallel to the railway tracks. The entry to the city center (Willemstraat) also saw an overhaul with pedestrians now in the middle and restricted accessibility for other transport modes. Also, the north side has gone from an unnoticed exit at a rather grim parking lot to an enormous work of brick and glass.

2012: demolishing north side in early 2012, later in the year land at the north side was cleared and the first part of the old roof was stripped.
2013: former post-platform 2 in use for passengers, demolishing the old roof completely, first signs of new building visible. A temporary bridge for access to the north causes lots of tired legs.
2014: first tracks covered by the new roof in april/may, on September 6 opening of northern hall, south closes while in the same year the old station, including the similar roof of the regional bus station and the bus stations in general, are demolished.
2015: southern (center) side increasingly visible, more tracks covered by roof, parking garage on roof opens and apartments start to be occupied.
2016: finishing the southern side and opening the southern hall at the start of July (correct me if I'm wrong). Temporary bridge becomes obsolete and will be dismantled. Opening on September 8 by Sharon Dijksma.

But we're still missing the promised train to Belgium, the whole reason this station gained its current proportions for :lol:

And so the fourth of six key projects (excluding other major overhauls) will be closed.

Old:








New:








Old interior:








New interior:


----------



## sven_engelen

Because i still have a day ticket that will expire this sunday, i will do a huge train travel on Sunday! This will be the travel:

07.00: Venlo (place of residence) 
07.52: Nijmegen

08.18: Nijmegen
09.41: Zwolle

09.47: Zwolle
10.44: Groningen

10.51: Groningen
11.40: Leeuwarden

11.44: Leeuwarden
12.38: Zwolle

12.45: Zwolle
13.10: Lelystad Centrum

13.14: Lelystad Centrum
16.54: Vlissingen

17.06 Vlissingen
18.07 Roosendaal

18.20 Roosendaal
18.38 Breda

18.51 Breda
19.29 Eindhoven

19.31 Eindhoven
20.34 Maastricht

20.57 Maastricht
21.27 Roermond

21.36 Roermond
21.58 Venlo


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## Slagathor

Why would you do that to yourself?


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## The Polwoman

What I forgot to mention about the Breda station:

the works began before 2012 already, but were only visible from the inside: platforms were opened up in 2008 and 2009 to construct the passenger tunnel, which was already prepared for chip card usage by splitting the tunnel in two zones. The gaps the tunnel left weren't covered anymore, in contrast to the covering of the old tunnel in 2015. Where the old tunnel was in the length of the Willemstraat, the new tunnel is more to the west (and the entrance at the front has stairs more to the east to lessen the detour from the Willemstraat.

As I couldn't find any proper digital map of the new station, I decided to photograph one from printed media*. You can see the tunnel is west of most other facilities and most facilities also have moved westwards because of this, although the platforms are at the same location as they were traditionally:










Another fact is that in preparing for a new station (and mostly the HSL service) the platform at track 7 and 8 was constructed in the late 2000s.

_the printed media was given for free at the opening_


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## Suburbanist

Something I did not understand is why they have built the lifts in the middle of two escalators instead of building three escalators and a central lift like they did, for instance, in Rotterdam. With so many people changing trains in Breda in the near future, when Breda will become the transfer point for traffic between a large chunk of Netherlands and Belgium, and the likely point where they will often terminate or start late international trains to prevent them from messing up the domestic schedule, they should have gone for a bit more space to/from the access tunnel.

The access tunnel was indeed planned with OV-chipkaart in mind to the station works very well in that regard. 

The main entrance of the station also changed to the north side.

What will happen with the "phantom" platform 2?


----------



## sven_engelen

Slagathor said:


> Why would you do that to yourself?


What else should i do with a day ticket valid till Sunday..


----------



## The Polwoman

Suburbanist said:


> Something I did not understand is why they have built the lifts in the middle of two escalators instead of building three escalators and a central lift like they did, for instance, in Rotterdam. With so many people changing trains in Breda in the near future, when Breda will become the transfer point for traffic between a large chunk of Netherlands and Belgium, and the likely point where they will often terminate or start late international trains to prevent them from messing up the domestic schedule, they should have gone for a bit more space to/from the access tunnel.
> 
> The access tunnel was indeed planned with OV-chipkaart in mind to the station works very well in that regard.
> 
> The main entrance of the station also changed to the north side.
> 
> What will happen with the "phantom" platform 2?


This platform is not going to be used for a while for sure. In earlier statements on the Dutch forum was told that planned shops will obstruct potential stairways to the platform of track 2. In the longer term it is possible to remove the obstructions but it would not be ideal as the platform is narrow and the access probably suboptimal. So I guess that it can be used for goods but even for that purpose it is not ideal, compared to Eindhoven.


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## Suburbanist

They also need to take down the ugly remnants of the temporary scaffold staircase looming over the tracks.


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## Slagathor

sven_engelen said:


> What else should i do with a day ticket valid till Sunday..


At least take an hour per destination to walk around and see the sights or something. Don't imprison yourself on trains all day, they're not that comfortable in this country and they don't have restaurant cars.


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## Spookvlieger

The Polman said:


> But we're still missing the promised train to Belgium, the whole reason this station gained its current proportions for :lol:












Did they design the architecture of the station to make the shock for the Belgians passing through less. I mean, it looks like the typical 100yo fixed and refixed brick housing, with windows sealed by bricks and then reopened and conrete patches that fix cracking walls, you will find in low end neighbourhoods in the bigger Belgian cities.

I looks like drab to be honest. It could be Borgerhout or Molenbeek, or the Bronx in 80ties.

What a shame.


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## AlexNL

Bricks are something you see a lot in the neighbourhoods around the station, so the architect decided that his building should also have a brick facade to better blend into the surrounding area. They have chosen to use various coloured bricks to prevent the building from looking too overwhelming.

Back in 2009, this is what the entrance on the north side looked like:


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## Slagathor

Here are some more photos from the Dutch forum section:



Breda2008 said:


> Wat foto's van ProRail:





Breda2008 said:


> We zijn toch leuk foto's-van-een-ander aan het posten. Deze zijn van architectenweb.nl


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## Momo1435

sven_engelen said:


> What else should i do with a day ticket valid till Sunday..


Is this even possible with all the engineering work in the weekends.


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## MrAronymous

joshsam said:


> I mean, it looks like the typical 100yo fixed and refixed brick housing, with windows sealed by bricks and then reopened and conrete patches that fix cracking walls
> 
> What a shame.


That was exactly the inspiration, actually. But the the architect found it in Italy.

They've projected all earlier design phases on the brick walls, as it were.



Suburbanist said:


> The main entrance of the station also changed to the north side.


Of course not. They just put it there because that made it easier during construction and because they don't give a shit about the people actually using the station by designing a ridiculously inconvenient and illogical layout. The main entrance is, and always will be, the city center side.


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## Suburbanist

MrAronymous said:


> Of course not. They just put it there because that made it easier during construction and because they don't give a shit about the people actually using the station by designing a ridiculously inconvenient and illogical layout. The main entrance is, and always will be, the city center side.


I meant it from an architectural viewpoint. Breda Centraal will be mainly accessed by the south side. This has repercussions, though: the rather large shopping areas might be less patronized than they would be otherwise, due to its location. Cheaper commercial rents would help though.

I wish they were building much taller buildings in the north side, on that reclaimed industrial land. With upcoming 64/day fast trains to Amsterdam and Rotterdam per day, it would be a good place to live and commute and save a lot of money in housing costs.


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## Harbornite

*[DE/NL] NS update: E 186 035, 037, 038-040*












> This morning (09.09.2016) NS E 186 037 had its maiden run. E 186 035 left the Kassel factory to start its journey to the Netherlands. Bombardier continues right away with delivering the eight units that have been ordered extra: Batch E 186 038-045. The first three of this batch are already awaiting their maiden run. (Christian Klotz and Marcus Alf)


http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1405330&id=9235&action=dview


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

During today's opening of Breda station they operated a steam tram on Speelhuislaan tracks which were reconstructed as a pedestrian path to the station



























fairly low quality photos provided by me


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## Wilhem275

There are two really horrendous things in that building:
- the fake concrete patches in the fake brick walls
- the squared pillars that become round halfway through

Last time I saw the half square/half round pillars I was 100% convinced it was temporary, to not ruin the lower half during the works, and that a squared cladding was going to be added. Those things look like a joke now :crazy:

Luckily both things can be fixed for a cheap sum


----------



## sven_engelen

Momo1435 said:


> Is this even possible with all the engineering work in the weekends.


Yup, i planned the travel and I'm not facing any railworks


----------



## Coccodrillo

sven_engelen said:


> What else should i do with a day ticket valid till Sunday..


I do such trips sometimes in Switzerland, with some non Swiss friends that do not own any kind of Swiss pass. There are cheap (~30 €) day passes for Switzerland that can be used by everyone, but these are hard to find, so every time they have time and get one (usually once or twice a year), my friends want to exploit them as much as possible!

(such passes are sold by the municipalities, not the SBB, and can be used only on certain dates - so to use them, one has to hope to find one *and* to find it valid on a day that suits him, which is not easy)



BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> During today's opening of Breda station they operated a steam tram on Speelhuislaan tracks which were reconstructed as a pedestrian path to the station


That's odd, I suppose they are remenants of some indistrial siding, right?


----------



## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> (such passes are sold by the municipalities, not the SBB, and can be used only on certain dates - so to use them, one has to hope to find one *and* to find it valid on a day that suits him, which is not easy)


It helps to live in a small community. In Basel (15 available per day) they are sold out very quickly. Albeit now in fall it's a bit easier and there are still some left for every day starting mid October. Sometimes I get them for friends/family visiting from abroad.


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## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> There are two really horrendous things in that building:
> - the fake concrete patches in the fake brick walls
> - the squared pillars that become round halfway through
> 
> Last time I saw the half square/half round pillars I was 100% convinced it was temporary, to not ruin the lower half during the works, and that a squared cladding was going to be added. Those things look like a joke now :crazy:
> 
> Luckily both things can be fixed for a cheap sum


Since you're the only one deeply troubled by these things, do you mind footing the 'cheap' bill?


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## Wilhem275

I'd rather pay NS a course of fine architecture :troll: :troll: :troll:

C'mon, they just needed to go in full brick mode... what do those random patches mean? I can't look at those and not think to a run down industrial building.

The city itself is one of the nicest I've seen in NL!


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## The Polwoman

Coccodrillo said:


> That's odd, I suppose they are remenants of some indistrial siding, right?


Indeed they are! It was a cargo branch line used until 1989. After that date is was still maintained until 2004. After that date the line was disconnected from the mainline at Breda station and parts are demolished.


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## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> I'd rather pay NS a course of fine architecture :troll: :troll: :troll:
> 
> *C'mon, they just needed to go in full brick mode... what do those random patches mean? I can't look at those and not think to a run down industrial building.*
> 
> The city itself is one of the nicest I've seen in NL!


It's a reference to an old design feature (so called blind bays) that's fallen into disuse and is these days usually associated (often mistakenly) with the infamous window-tax introduced by Napoleon.

It can often be hard to tell the difference between windows that were bricked up for tax purposes and blind bays that were designed like that from the start. 

Public buildings were exempt from the tax and indeed many churches (for example) already had these closed bays for decades if not centuries.

But with private houses it becomes very tricky. I happen to know that this building in The Hague was designed with closed bays. But this house... Who knows. These closed bays may have been closed bays from the start. Or they might have been windows that were bricked up later. Or perhaps some of them were initially closed bays while others were later bricked up. It's hard to know without the paperwork.


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## Suburbanist

Off all great station projects undertaken or u/c in Netherlands recently, Rotterdam Centraal is my favorite, and Arnhen Centraal comes at a very close second place. Amsterdam Centraal is my least favorite, they should have demolished the old station and built something completely new with stunning architecture and a massive floor-to-ceiling clearance. Something like full of glass playing tricks with sunlight reflection and a massive LED wall for electronic art display visible from Amsterdam Noord. Imagine that :drool:


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## MrAronymous

I'd rather not.


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

Coccodrillo said:


> That's odd, I suppose they are remenants of some indistrial siding, right?





The Polman said:


> Indeed they are! It was a cargo branch line used until 1989. After that date is was still maintained until 2004. After that date the line was disconnected from the mainline at Breda station and parts are demolished.


Since I live in Breda only as of August, I don't know that much. But we are studying exactly that area north of the station and I think that it was also the historical steam tramway route. (That's why they used the historical steam tramway train during this opening ceremony) That tramway closed shortly before WWII, but was reopened as an industrial railway after WWII.

Nowadays only Speelhuislaan tracks remain (it used to be much longer) and all except for the last block were reconstructed as a pedestrian path.


----------



## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> Off all great station projects undertaken or u/c in Netherlands recently, Rotterdam Centraal is my favorite, and Arnhen Centraal comes at a very close second place.


I'll agree... just up to this point 
Although not so recent, I like a lot the style of Bijlmer Arena and the minimal design of some recent local stations (Ypenburg, Vaartsche Rijn).

Before thinking about tearing down Amsterdam Centraal (...) there are many stations in the Amsterdam area, IMO, that need a heavy overhaul. All the '80s-90s "tubular style" is aging terribly, like Sloterdijk, Zaandam, Duivendrecht, Almere Centrum...
Maybe at the time it looked futuristic, and it was kind of consistent, but now it just lost it.



Slagathor said:


> It's a reference to an old design feature (so called blind bays) that's fallen into disuse and is these days usually associated (often mistakenly) with the infamous window-tax introduced by Napoleon.
> 
> It can often be hard to tell the difference between windows that were bricked up for tax purposes and blind bays that were designed like that from the start.


I get your reference, but I still don't see it in Breda's design. It's a common sight in old brick walls, but usually they closed (or never opened) the windows with bricks of the same texture. I just don't recognize those random concrete frames in Dutch classic architecture (which I happen to appreciate!). Actually bare grey concrete is not something frequently seen there, luckily.


----------



## 3737

After 52 years mat 64 made it's final ride today with a farewell tour ending at the Dutch railway museum.
A lot of people waved the 449,466,469 and 876 a final goodbye.

A tour of the interior.















Making it's last 100 meters towards the Dutch railway museum





After the farewell tour the 876 was donated to the Dutch railway museum (in dutch)


----------



## Sunfuns

Will they keep it in a running shape so that it could be used as a heritage train once in a while?


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## 3737

Yes, 2 of the once 275 trainsets will be preserved in running shape.
The 876 will be preserved by the Dutch railway museum and the 904 will be preserved by the stichting mat 64.


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## Suburbanist

These trains indeed belong into a museum, they were a stain in the current NS fleet, noisy, cranky, badly insulated, outdated " bench-like" seats. They should had been retired at least 15 years earlier. 

When has NS adopted its current yellow and deep blue livery?


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> These trains indeed belong into a museum, they were a stain in the current NS fleet, noisy, cranky, badly insulated, outdated " bench-like" seats. They should had been retired at least 15 years earlier.


And they were still better than anything AnsaldoBreda managed to send our way. :lol:


----------



## suasion

> And they were still better than anything AnsaldoBreda managed to send our way.


:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:


----------



## Suburbanist

AnsladoBreda has nothing to do with it, it was a good manufacturer and designer of rolling stock and railway infrastructure & systems for a long time, with occasional problem-products as others have had as well, until it was purchased by Hitachi to establish an European presence.


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## Svartmetall

So good that it left a trail of rubbish trains and broken promises well before the purchase by Hitachi...


----------



## Wilhem275

In general, they were quite good on trams and subways, and complete crap on trains. Never understood why. I can't name a single decent train they built, or that didn't require a complete rebuilding by the operator (namely, the FS).
I still don't understand how NS&Co. didn't figure out this before buying anything, it was not exactly a secret :crazy:

Signalling and infra are covered by another branch, Ansaldo STS, which is regarded as a good manufacturer (completely separate management).


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> In general, they were quite good on trams and subways, and complete crap on trains. Never understood why. I can't name a single decent train they built, or that didn't require a complete rebuilding by the operator (namely, the FS).
> *I still don't understand how NS&Co. didn't figure out this before buying anything, it was not exactly a secret* :crazy:
> 
> Signalling and infra are covered by another branch, Ansaldo STS, which is regarded as a good manufacturer (completely separate management).


I can answer that: vanity and stupidity. They never do their homework and in that particular instance, they also insisted on a custom designed high speed train. Because style is better than substance. :nuts:


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## Suburbanist

The V250 was a well designed trainset, plagued by an unusual stacking of execution flaws and project management faults that unfortunately doomed it. It would be good to have them running up and down the HSL, had they worked as initially planned, instead of the proposed replacement which will be rated only for 200 km/h :bash:


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## suasion

.:rofl:


> The V250 was a well designed trainset,


:rofl:



> On the 31st of May 2013, the NMBS/SNCB cancelled the Fyra project entirely.[63][64] On June 3, NS also announced it was stopping operation of V250 trains. According to their survey of the trains it would take at least 17 months to repair all construction flaws, and entry into service would not be expected before 2018.[65] In addition, even if trains were to be repaired, the maintenance cost would be much higher and the lifetime of the trains much lower than agreed in the contracts with AnsaldoBreda. It is currently unlikely that the V250 will enter commercial service again.


----------



## 3737

Of course it's all the fault of NS they f*cked up. I mean look at the Danish IC4 DMU's they work perfectly :nuts:

Still though when the delivery of SLT started a lot of mat 64 was decommissioned but due to a design flaw a lot of SLT short circuit due to melting ice in the winter of 2010/2011. A lot of mat 64 was recommissioned and brought me and a lot of other comutters save at home.

I'm going to miss those noisy pieces of junk at least you knew you would arrive at your destination :lol:.


----------



## AlexNL

There is a difference between design and execution. On paper, the V250 was a pretty good train: it offered high capacity (546 seats) in a single deck unit of 200 metres, which is more than a TGV Duplex. The amount of seats could be increased if you'd rework first class (more seats) or remove FC alltogether.

If the execution was done well, AnsaldoBreda had a product which they could have sold to other operators as well. Sadly, they completely screwed it up.


----------



## suasion

On paper, the starship enterprise looks damn good.


----------



## Svartmetall

Wilhem275 said:


> In general, they were quite good on trams and subways, and complete crap on trains. Never understood why. I can't name a single decent train they built, or that didn't require a complete rebuilding by the operator (namely, the FS).
> I still don't understand how NS&Co. didn't figure out this before buying anything, it was not exactly a secret :crazy:
> 
> Signalling and infra are covered by another branch, Ansaldo STS, which is regarded as a good manufacturer (completely separate management).


Ask Oslo and Gothenburg what they think of the trams. The AB trams in Oslo are a mess, as are the ones in Gothenburg (rusting). Apparently LA has also had problems with them. 

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/03/26/ansaldobreda-problems-arent-in-los-angeles-alone/


----------



## M-NL

Wilhem275 said:


> I still don't understand how NS&Co. didn't figure out this before buying anything, it was not exactly a secret :crazy:


They did find out in time, but they choose to ignore at least two safeguards included in the tender documents.

The first one was ignoring the requirement for a bank guarantee from a bank with at least a certain rating, which couldn't be met by AB.

The second one was the requirement for having recent experience as the primary contractor in a previous high speed train project. At that point AB and it predecessors had only been a minor participant in a consortium.

At the time the contract was awarded also all the issues with the Danish sets and several trams around the world were already known. Despite all that NS still awarded the contract to AB.:bash:


----------



## Slagathor

Like I said: stupidity.


----------



## M-NL

Indeed.
Another example: Starting this week all Intercity Direct services have been converted to push-pull operation. Because of numerous problems with single loco operations, especially at the ATC transfer sites, and the inability of Nedtrain to create a working driving trailer in time, they decided to order extra locomotives instead, so all sets now have locomotives at both ends.
Even despite the V250 fiasco there should already have been at least 200 km/h operation by now, but again they choose to stick with 160 km/h running using renovated old carriages with traction provided by uprated freight locomotives.


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> They should run a new IC series Lelystad-Almere-A'dam Zuid-Schiphol- HSL- Rotterdam.


How about extending that service to Zwolle or even further, because the Hanzelijn allows for 200 km/h running.


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## Wilhem275

Duivendrecht is probably of almost no local importance, but it's relevant as an interchange to the metro: if ICs don't stop there, there is no other fast way to reach central Amsterdam (given that the new metro line to A'dam Zuid will still take some time...).

I would explore the concept of sending some HSL services to Zuid (and over) instead of Centraal. As of today, even in such a dense offer, there is no direct connection between Zuid station and Rotterdam.
I don't have data to say if Rotterdam - Zwolle would be faster than via Utrecht, but for sure Rotterdam - Almere/Lelystad would be MUCH faster than the current trip via Den Haag and Amsterdam CS...

It's a matter of demand in the Amsterdam area. It is well known that Zuid is getting heavier in recent years, but I don't know if it can steal some of the IC Direct offer from Centraal (I don't know if Schiphol's 3 platforms can manage extra trains).


----------



## Suburbanist

They need to expand the Schiphol tunnels with two new tracks. 

It should be possible with some modifications in the passanger terminal, maybe they will do that whenever they give the main hall a facelift.


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## Suburbanist

Which Dutch stations have underground passageways for carts or service personnel?


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## Momo1435

Suburbanist said:


> They need to expand the Schiphol tunnels with two new tracks.
> 
> It should be possible with some modifications in the passenger terminal, maybe they will do that whenever they give the main hall a facelift.


The current tunnel was doubled together with the construction of Schiphol Plaza and a complete renovation of the Buitenveldertbaan runway. It was done when Schiphol was at 15 million passengers a year, now it's over 60 million. 

Nowadays it's simply impossible to built a new tunnel directly next to the current one and significantly expand the current station. It would have too big of an impact on the airport operations. The only possible way is to drill a new tunnel deep underneath the airport with a separate new station a bit further away from the current entrance.

But right now the most likely new rail infrastructure to Schiphol is an Airport link for the Amsterdam Metro system.


ps. Duivendrecht is a station that was more much important before the new Amsterdam Bijlmer ArenA station and the direct link from that station to Amsterdam Zuid were opened. Back then it was the transfer station for passengers from Utrecht to Schiphol. With the new link there's simply no need for transfers anymore and that's why the Amsterdam - Utrecht ICs don't stop there anymore.


----------



## M-NL

The actual problem isn't track capacity in the tunnel, but high platform occupation in the station itself. If they were to build 2 extra platforms ('Spoor 0' and 'Spoor 7') and reserve those platforms for HSL-traffic that could work. The existing station terminal building seems wide enough for that.


----------



## Suburbanist

Why didn't they build a more spacious station at Schiphol to begin with?


----------



## MrAronymous

Because it wasn't deemed necessary.


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> Why didn't they build a more spacious station at Schiphol to begin with?


Because they misplaced their crystal ball and didn't foresee the actual growth.

But on another note: There is no way to tell in advance which length of train is coming up next and where the doors are going to be, which results in alighting and boarding in the Netherlands taking ages. Thus trains spent much more time at platforms then necessary, preventing platform access for the next trains. Guess why in Japan trains have shorter carriages yet more doors per side?


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a historical question: before 1986, when they finally opened the full Leiden-Schiphol-Sloterdijk line (I read that, first only a connection to Schiphol was openened), what was the fastest travel option between Amsterdam and Rotterdam? Did they run Intercity trains via Gouda in that route? Going all around Haarlem must have taken ages.


----------



## Suburbanist

M-NL said:


> But on another note: There is no way to tell in advance which length of train is coming up next and where the doors are going to be, which results in alighting and boarding in the Netherlands taking ages. Thus trains spent much more time at platforms then necessary, preventing platform access for the next trains. Guess why in Japan trains have shorter carriages yet more doors per side?


That should be fairly easy to signal, shouldn't it?

I get that information (length of train, number of seats, location of classes) on my NS Xtra app... It has always worked so far (never been in a train that didn't match the composition shown in the app).

1.5 year ago I asked a question here about a LCD panel test in Den Bosch, showing where doors would be. I never saw the system implemented elsewhere.

Something that could make boarding faster would be every passenger disembarking through the door in front of them, and everybody embarking and then walking in direction of travel inside the trains. That is virtually impossible to implement though.


----------



## Momo1435

Suburbanist said:


> I have a historical question: before 1986, when they finally opened the full Leiden-Schiphol-Sloterdijk line (I read that, first only a connection to Schiphol was openened), what was the fastest travel option between Amsterdam and Rotterdam? Did they run Intercity trains via Gouda in that route? Going all around Haarlem must have taken ages.


The route of the IC trains was via Haarlem, there have never been any ICs via Gouda. Maybe there were some fast trains before there were Intercities, but that's a very long time ago. 

The route via Haarlem is only a couple of km's longer then the route via Schiphol, the new line didn't cut the journey short. Still today it takes the same time to travel from Leiden to Amsterdam on both routes, 35 minutes. In 1987 the same trip was 34 minutes. In 1986 the IC Amsterdam - Haarlem - Leiden stopped less often then the fast train that replaced it. In other words the IC trains via Haarlem were probabaly faster then the IC trains via Schiphol a year later. I cannot check this directly since my oldest timetable I have here is from '86 -'87, the 1st year of the fully completed Schiphol line. 

In 1987 the IC trains took 1:03 from Rotterdam to Amsterdam CS. 

Now it's 0:42 via the HSL or 1:10 via the old line (with 8 stops instead of just 4 1987)


----------



## mistertl

Suburbanist said:


> That should be fairly easy to signal, shouldn't it?
> 
> I get that information (length of train, number of seats, location of classes) on my NS Xtra app... It has always worked so far (never been in a train that didn't match the composition shown in the app).
> 
> 1.5 year ago I asked a question here about a LCD panel test in Den Bosch, showing where doors would be. I never saw the system implemented elsewhere.
> 
> Something that could make boarding faster would be every passenger disembarking through the door in front of them, and everybody embarking and then walking in direction of travel inside the trains. That is virtually impossible to implement though.


A new LCD panel will be used at Schiphol in the future (Q2 2017), at least at platforms 1 and 2.


----------



## P05

First of all excuse my lack of knowledge about railways, I am just an occasional NS user/sufferer.

A few years ago (2010) a journey from Vlissingen to Amsterdam took two an a half hours, with the semi-direct trains that only stopped at Middelburg, Goes and Bergen op Zoom.

Then we lost the connection with Schiphol and got Haarlem instead. And the semi-direct trains with less stops were cancelled and we got one train every half an hour stopping at all the stations, increasing the journey time to Amsterdam increased to 2 hours and 45 minutes.

After lots of complains, we got the trains to Schiphol restored, but the journey time to Amsterdam increased even more, close to three hours.

And now we are back to Haarlem again, no direct train to Schiphol and more than three hours to Amsterdam. People crossing with the ferry from Zeeuws Vlaanderen at Vlissingen to get to Schiphol will love it.

Seriously, does any of the bosses at NS have a lover living in Haarlem or something? I don't understand why such fixation with Haarlem.

At this pace, in 20 years it will be quicker to bike from Vlissingen to Amsterdam than to take the train. Wish ticket prices would slow down as much as time travels to the Randstad have.


----------



## Momo1435

In 1987 Vlissingen - Amsterdam took 2:42 direct. In 2010 it was 2:21 with a 4 minute change in Rotterdam (or 2:41 direct). Now it takes 2:30 with a 5 minutes change in Rotterdam (or 2:56 direct), from December it will be 2:45 with a 17 minutes change at Rotterdam (or 3:03 direct). I would say that the worsened connection at Rotterdam to the IC Direct (either a 1 minute (too short) or 17/19 minute connection) is a bigger issue then losing a direct connection to Schiphol. 

When the HSL will be fully utilized in the future it might become interesting to have a direct fast connection between Vlissingen and Breda. 

The problem is that the passenger numbers on the line to Zeeland are steadily dropping over the years. One could argue that this happens because of services slowing down and less frequent. But dropping passenger numbers is never a good incentive to significantly improve services again. The market is too small for a separate faster IC between Vlissingen and Roosendaal and a Sprinter service. 

As for the changes between Rotterdam - Den Haag - Amsterdam. There are simply too many passengers and therefor trains between these cities nowadays. More trains means slower connection, especially with the lack of tracks between the cities and the continuing aftermath of the HSL debacle. 

The NS have chosen to just 3 fixed corridors going up to Amsterdam. All the trains from Rotterdam via Den Haag HS go to Amsterdam Central via Haarlem. All the trains from Den Haag Centraal go to Amsterdam Zuid (and beyond) via Schiphol. The IC Direct will be the only IC trains running via Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal via Schiphol. This has to do with the lack of capacity between Schiphol and Amsterdam, not the Schiphol tunnel, but mainly on the Westtak line between the 2 stations. The trains from Den Haag Centraal use the extra capacity created by the doubling of the line from Schiphol to Amsterdam Zuid.


----------



## Suburbanist

Zeeland is really on a bad spot now with long connections in Rotterdam. If they could arrange for connections in Breda, it would help. I had thought of extending the Sprinter Utrecht - Breda to Rosendaal but they have now re-routed it as a Den Bosch-Dordrecht Sprinter.


----------



## Suburbanist

Momo1435 said:


> The NS have chosen to just 3 fixed corridors going up to Amsterdam. All the trains from Rotterdam via Den Haag HS go to Amsterdam Central via Haarlem. All the trains from Den Haag Centraal go to Amsterdam Zuid (and beyond) via Schiphol. The IC Direct will be the only IC trains running via Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal via Schiphol. This has to do with the lack of capacity between Schiphol and Amsterdam, not the Schiphol tunnel, but mainly on the Westtak line between the 2 stations. The trains from Den Haag Centraal use the extra capacity created by the doubling of the line from Schiphol to Amsterdam Zuid.


This was the plan altogether when they broke many ICs in Leiden and rerouted others through Haarlem, unfortunately facing problems soon after because of the snow damage to the Fyra V250 trains.


----------



## The Polwoman

Momo1435 said:


> The problem is that the passenger numbers on the line to Zeeland are steadily dropping over the years. One could argue that this happens because of services slowing down and less frequent. But dropping passenger numbers is never a good incentive to significantly improve services again. The market is too small for a separate faster IC between Vlissingen and Roosendaal and a Sprinter service.
> 
> As for the changes between Rotterdam - Den Haag - Amsterdam. There are simply too many passengers and therefor trains between these cities nowadays. More trains means slower connection, especially with the lack of tracks between the cities and the continuing aftermath of the HSL debacle.


The problem can be divided into more problems:
A: the train became slower up north during the past years
B: the train became slower in the province itself
C: the requirements from the national government (2x/h for all sprinter and IC trains on the mainline) do not fit to the situation in Zeeland
D: the double-decker trains going to Zeeland are EXTREMELY big as a result from the demand between Rotterdam and Amsterdam.

So it is better to bring faster trains, with a dedicated IC and one sprinter/IC stopping at all stations and more direct connections to speed up travelling further north, loosen requirements for Zeeland to allow once-hourly stop patterns and most importantly: cut the train in Rotterdam!

Why? So a much shorter, single-deck train can easily provide the IC service on all of the traject. To make the news better: four of the smallest NS trains an hour offer the same or an even lower capacity as two double-deckers now. When investing in a slightly higher speed to and in Zeeland as well (160kph, like with the mandatory roll-out of ERTMS and shorter halts), almost all of Zeeland, including the micro-urban region of Middelburg-Vlissingen will fall within the maximum reasonable commute time from Rotterdam (well below 90 minutes). The investment not profitable? A typical short-sighted Dutch argument. Think about the long-term. Half of Scandinavia would be inaccessible (and impoverish) when using this argument over and over again.

More profitable is likely to have one real IC and one IC that stops in all villages beyond Bergen op Zoom. When a train can be manned in the same way as regional lines in the north and east (just only the driver) then I see it becoming profitable. But one can also invest in an extra direct train to Breda and so offering more to the passengers in Zeeland.


----------



## Suburbanist

A train with a planned transfer in Breda wouldn't provide a faster connection between Roosendaal and Rotterdam?


----------



## Momo1435

The biggest problem in Zeeland is that the passenger numbers are simply not big enough for more services.




Suburbanist said:


> This was the plan altogether when they broke many ICs in Leiden and rerouted others through Haarlem, unfortunately facing problems soon after because of the snow damage to the Fyra V250 trains.


Not exactly, all IC from Rotterdam to Amsterdam via the old line were supposed to go via Haarlem. Just to fill the Fyra trains between Rotterdam and Schiphol. But from Den Haag it wasn't as channeled into corridors as much as it will now be. You still had, and still have until December ICs from Den Haag Centraal via Leiden and Schiphol to Amsterdam. 

Leiden wasn't the station where these IC were broken up, it was just become a bigger hub station for people traveling to and from Schiphol and Amsterdam Zuid.


----------



## LtBk

How many people in NL travel on rail every day? Is there a pattern of more or fewer people traveling by train?


----------



## Suburbanist

Zeeland needs more population, they could build TOD new towns near some of those stations, will tall residential buildings.


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## Momo1435

^^ Creating ghost towns is never a good policy, unless you building a scary theme park. 



LtBk said:


> How many people in NL travel on rail every day? Is there a pattern of more or fewer people traveling by train?


Looking at the NS numbers it's pretty stable at 600.000 people making 1,200,000 daily journeys. At least that is the number which the NS has published in every annual report for the last 5 years. They don't give exact numbers anymore, in 2010 it was 1.157.260 journeys. They lost some traffic to other companies as some rural local lines where transferred to other companies, which means the total numbers for all railway journeys must have grown a bit. But it has been pretty stable over the last 5 years with a slow growth.

The NS has said that this year they see a clear growth, based on the economy doing a bit better again. But we have to wait and see for the actual numbers to see if it's finally more then 1.2 million.

It's always interesting to see the statements when new stations are opened, the predicted traffic will always double or triple in 2020/2025/2030. But what we actually see a much slower growth numbers . The government and the NS are simply not investing enough in new infrastructure and new trains to even make such growth possible. These absurd predictions are just made to mislead (local) politicians to invest public money into large new showy stations. Money that should have been invested in actual measures to make the Dutch railways much more stable in it's daily operations.


----------



## Suburbanist

Yes, NS needs 200km/h trains, ERTMS and some new lines. Moreover, some big cities that have just buses linking to the train station must build trams or light rail (Eindhoven, Groningen, Breda, Arnhem)


----------



## LtBk

From a outsider's perspective you guys have it better than over 90% of the world.


----------



## Wilhem275

LtBk said:


> From a outsider's perspective you guys have it better than over 90% of the world.


And that's why they complain so much :troll:


----------



## LtBk

I live in country where many cities and towns don't have any type of passenger rail transportation at all. And many of cities with passenger service only have 1-2 trains a day.


----------



## Slagathor

Well sure but our country is tiny.


----------



## Momo1435

It's indeed a luxery problem, after Switzerland we have the best nationwide coverage with our rail network. And it's amazing how many passenger are using this network, especially with it being a very lean network in terms of tracks. 

But that's the main reason why we still have to complain. The system is overused, problem do spread very easily over a large part of the network. You hear to often that trains don't run because of problems on other lines. It's actually the reason given in the announcements when that's the case, the NS doesn't try to hide this from us travelers. 

So when I say that more money should be spent on making the system more stable I mean smart investments in extra capacity at the known weak spots. I also mean better maintenance so you don't have the same issue over and over again. When you see money being spend on vanity projects instead it's hard not to complain. And I think it's more urgent then the loudest complaints in the media. Which is even going as far as organizations going to court claiming money from the NS because people have to stand in the train too often. I very much hope the court will reject this nonsense. Let the NS spend it's money on maintenance and cleaning instead.


----------



## Suburbanist

Momo1435 said:


> So when I say that more money should be spent on making the system more stable I mean smart investments in extra capacity at the known weak spots. I also mean better maintenance so you don't have the same issue over and over again. *When you see money being spend on vanity projects instead it's hard not to complain. *And I think it's more urgent then the loudest complaints in the media. Which is even going as far as organizations going to court claiming money from the NS because people have to stand in the train too often. I very much hope the court will reject this nonsense. Let the NS spend it's money on maintenance and cleaning instead.


What are significant "vanity projects"? Other than some stations with too much decorative/style elements (like the huge, enormous high ceiling hall at Rotterdam Centraal), it doesn't feel like money has been thrown away. 

The Hanzelijn was a much-needed project, so was the high speed line. Even the criticized V250 trainsets were also needed, if NS had worked out a solution to have them operating now instead of waiting another 2 years for new trains...


----------



## LtBk

Is there a current list of projects for passenger rail?


----------



## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> The Hanzelijn was a much-needed project, so was the high speed line.


Needed, yes. Needed with those high-end specs... not so sure.
Ok futureproofing and all, but those were shots really too long.


----------



## AlexNL

LtBk said:


> Is there a current list of projects for passenger rail?


Yes! http://www.prorail.nl/projecten


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, NS needs 200km/h trains, ERTMS and some new lines.


Except for two classes (SGM and DM'90) all current NS passenger train classes are suitable for 160 km/h operation, yet on the entire 1.5 kV network they can't exceed 140 km/h, because of an antiquated ATC.

And what did our nitwit secretary for infrastructure and environment do? She delayed the roll out of ERTMS, on the grounds that Germany did so as well (and she lacked funding). The fact that among others, Belgium and Denmark haven't delayed their roll out was conveniently omitted. There is a Dutch saying 'If everybody jumps into the ditch/canal, do you do the same?' that is applicable here.


----------



## MrAronymous

It was clearly a budget choice. It was either ERTMS rollout or improvements/expansion of Schiphol Airport station.


----------



## Suburbanist

Overall, why does ERTMS deployment take so long and cost so much? What is the most cumbersome - the radio engineering part, the software bit, or integrating rolling stock with ETCS?


----------



## AlexNL

All of it. And at the same time, the trains have to keep running.


----------



## The Polwoman

Momo1435 said:


> ^^ Creating ghost towns is never a good policy, unless you building a scary theme park.
> 
> It's always interesting to see the statements when new stations are opened, the predicted traffic will always double or triple in 2020/2025/2030. But what we actually see a much slower growth numbers . The government and the NS are simply not investing enough in new infrastructure and new trains to even make such growth possible. These absurd predictions are just made to mislead (local) politicians to invest public money into large new showy stations. Money that should have been invested in actual measures to make the Dutch railways much more stable in it's daily operations.


Investing is very important, also to make connections much better. I see that tiny investments like the The Hague-Eindhoven train transferring to the HSR between Breda and Rotterdam results in a totally changed schedule improving a lot. From Tilburg Reeshof and Gilze-Rijen the butcher is cutting in the meat of travel times a lot from December to many destinations as a result. And the increase in trains depleting the need for a stopping IC between Nijmegen and Arnhem results in a (required) different schedule for Tilburg Reeshof and Gilze-Rijen as well: after tweaking a lot, going to Schiphol, Roosendaal and Eindhoven is quicker as well. Much quicker than even imaginable by car. But which we never saw coming in our suburb.

What I want to say is that this eventually may lead to much increased ridership even despite the retaining twice-hourly frequency. I'm awaiting the numbers but will only be released in late 2018. Efficiency in the timetable is very important. The win or loss of connections has influenced ridership in the past. As we know here in the Netherlands, standing in the cold for 20 minutes? Nah, I take the car instead/I skip lecture for today :lol:.


----------



## Suburbanist

The Polman said:


> Investing is very important, also to make connections much better. I see that tiny investments like the The Hague-Eindhoven train transferring to the HSR between Breda and Rotterdam results in a totally changed schedule improving a lot. From Tilburg Reeshof and Gilze-Rijen the butcher is cutting in the meat of travel times a lot from December to many destinations as a result. And the increase in trains depleting the need for a stopping IC between Nijmegen and Arnhem results in a (required) different schedule for Tilburg Reeshof and Gilze-Rijen as well: after tweaking a lot, going to Schiphol, Roosendaal and Eindhoven is quicker as well. Much quicker than even imaginable by car. But which we never saw coming in our suburb.
> 
> What I want to say is that this eventually may lead to much increased ridership even despite the retaining twice-hourly frequency. I'm awaiting the numbers but will only be released in late 2018. Efficiency in the timetable is very important. The win or loss of connections has influenced ridership in the past. As we know here in the Netherlands, standing in the cold for 20 minutes? Nah, I take the car instead/I skip lecture for today :lol:.


I'm quite happy for the new schedule of trains to and from my station. Amsterdam Centraal is now faster reached through the IC Direct, currently that involves a 27-min wait in Breda. It's a much smoother travel route than via Den Bosch.


----------



## LtBk

Slagathor said:


> Well sure but our country is tiny.


Sure, but the national government and the general population is supportive of passenger rail. In the US as you know voted for a President whose political party strongly dislike Amtrak or rail transit in general unless it's private.


----------



## Suburbanist

Surel said:


> We had it over whether the train is competitive with a car in the Netherlands. I don't think it is.
> 
> As about the pricing. It always depends on with what do you compare it. Compare it with Czech train prices and it is more expensive, income wise. But that is extreme, Czech train service is the cheapest in Europe I guess, income wise.


If you consider total ownership and operation costs of car (insurance, road tax, fuel, maintenance), train travel is already cheaper on subscriptions plans. 

The Dutch train network works great for someone who, simultaneously:
(1) lives close enough to a station to walk/cycle (or take a fast tram/subway in the 3 cities that have them)
(2) works close enough to another train station

In those circumstances, it is very hard to beat the convenience of train transport, especially as parking places for offices near train stations is often expensive as well, adding to the costs. 

Trains are rather packed at peak times. There are just a handful station without at least 2x/hour service during daytime.

I think NS doesn't have a problem attracting people for whom the train is a feasible alternative. It is also paid for free passes for students (which are less time-sensitive than older adults with families). 

The problem, which I don't think can be fixed with subsidies, is that many people don't live AND don't work close enough to a station, making the proposition of using bus + train + bus very bad time-wise. I'm talking adding 90-120 min to a person's commute each day. Many people would not be taking such jobs if commute took 2h, instead of 30-45min, each way. 

So, in my opinion, *further subsidization of train fares would benefit, mostly, those who already use train because they live/work on places where using train is convenient. *. Specifically, subsidization of single train fares would be a boon for those who occasionally use train because it is convenient, such as people going to the airport, or to another city on non-recurrent trips.


----------



## AlexNL

I have to agree with Suburbanist on this one: Dutch train prices are quite competitive against car use, except for those who *never* travel with a train and thus don't have a discount pass. 

The best way to increase ridership is therefore to increase capacity where needed, reduce journey times, and improve connections between the different modalities.


----------



## Attus

Surel, here you may see the Dutch Intercity Network (it's from 2015, i.e. two years old, but the 2017 one is basically the same).

Intercitynet NL 2015 [CC BY 3.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0)], by Dennistw (Classical geographer), from Wikimedia Commons
As you may see there are several connections having 4 trains an hour, and quite many having 2 trains an hour. 
VIRM Lelystad by Peter Reading, on Flickr
Many of the trains are double decker. And they are not empty.


----------



## Surel

And I use them quite often . ^^

And I am all for increasing the intervals and making the Randstad yet more connected in a S-Bahn style. That would require infrastructure investments and allow much affordable subscription plans. And I am all for it let Randstad pay for it.

The rest of the country could utilize the trains even now much better with a better ticketing system. In fact even the whole system could be much better utilized with better ticketing.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Surel said:


> The rest of the country could utilize the trains even now much better with a better ticketing system. In fact even the whole system could be much better utilized with better ticketing.


What's the problem with the ticketing? I like the current system. Then again, I don't use the train on a regular basis for commuting


----------



## AlexNL

One thing which I would like to see added, now that the OV-chipkaart is in use throughout the country, is price capping like on the Oyster card. While I understand this can't be done with the current pre-paid system, it should be possible if a move is made to a post-paid system where passengers receive a bill at the end of the month.


----------



## Slagathor

^^ I'm pretty sure the post-paid system is available with the OV-Chipkaart. I've seen ad posters in bus stops about people paying their bill at the end of the month. So I guess people who have that, could be eligible for price capping.


----------



## Surel

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> What's the problem with the ticketing? I like the current system. Then again, I don't use the train on a regular basis for commuting



It is very difficult to manage and utilize effectively the train capacity and sell tickets for certain times and relations using dynamic pricing in the current system.

I don't use it regularly either, but I use it often enough. The discussion started with the fact that the modality share is not favourable for the trains:



ChrisZwolle said:


> During the period from 1994 to 2007, regional public transport (bus, tram, subway) lost 2.4 billion passenger kilometers. Trains gained 3 billion km, cycling 0.8 billion and cars..... *18 billion kilometers*. The _growth_ in vehicle traffic was larger than _all_ train travel at that time (15.7 billion km).


My argument is that the pricing on the Dutch railway is generally not competitive to using a car. The argument that the total car costs should be included is not relevant here. Everyone (other then some city youth) has a car. Those are sunk costs. No one makes a decision whether to buy a car or ride with PT and train. That's not how it is. People make decision, what costs me more, a full tank or a ticket. If you should want to have competitive railways you need to make car ride price wise competitive only with 3 or more passengers.

I am not saying that there is no capacity problem as well. But I would need to know more about the numbers of the capacity utilisation of the trains.

The capacity problem is also of another kind. In fact what you see is that there's sort of plan to create an urban traffic train system in the Randstad, while at the same time, those trains are utilized on longer distance as well. This creates problems with the capacity of the trains. It would be better to have high capacity, light, wide door - quick stops, standing places, fast trains connecting the Randstad area. Those trains could be used with cheap integrated (with other PT) subscription plans, like a big metro system. Then you could have trains doing longer distances, where the you could sell some combined style tickets with variable and dynamic pricing.

The distances and urbanisation between Rotterdam and Den Haag is quite comparable and suitable for a metro system. The distances between Amsterdam, Utrecht, Almere, are also not greater than the distances in an metro system.

If you could separate this local traffic from the long distance traffic, you would get much less capacity constraints problems imho.

Yet another look at is. I think it is good to strive for a integrated PT system for the whole country, however then you should really build it up to it. Imagine a city that would introduce rush hour pricing plans for its PT (metro, tram, bus), that would be defying the whole purpose of this system. Therefore I think that this needs to be taken into consideration here as well.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

Surel said:


> Imagine a city that would introduce rush hour pricing plans for its PT (metro, tram, bus), that would be defying the whole purpose of this system. Therefore I think that this needs to be taken into consideration here as well.


London underground has higher prices during rush hour.


----------



## Wilhem275

Ok, the voices about V250s are growing. It seems they will become part of the Frecciargento (Silver Arrow) fleet and are very likely to be used for services between Milan and the Adriatic coast, which include HS Milan - Bologna and then an upgraded line up to 200 km/h.

This fits perfectly their profile, 250 km/h under 25 kV and 200 under 3 kV.

From the Atlantic to the Adriatic...  Be prepared to see them with this livery:


----------



## AlexNL

Thanks for the update, Wilhem275. Do keep us posted, because if this gets serious I am definitely going to look into booking a little trip to Italy!


----------



## Wilhem275

Everything still under the "I'll believe it when I'll see it" policy 

But I find extremely funny that in the end the nose of the beloved Plan V (sort of...) will be running around Italy :lol:

Lucky you, it's also a quite scenic route, with many parts along the sea.


----------



## 3737

Wilhem275 said:


> Ok, the voices about V250s are growing. It seems they will become part of the Frecciargento (Silver Arrow) fleet and are very likely to be used for services between Milan and the Adriatic coast, which include HS Milan - Bologna and then an upgraded line up to 200 km/h.


Do you have a source or are these just rumours ?
It's not like I don't trust you but I have heard a lot of rumours over the years about the fate of the V250 and for now none of them came true.

Still would love to see the ugly duckling ride again instead of rusting away in a yard in Italy.


----------



## Wilhem275

Nothing official yet, but on 29/11 there was a meeting between Trenitalia and some unions to discuss the 2017-2026 industrial plan, and the V250s were named among the ongoing purchases (as well as more ETR 400 HS trains and some regional material).
There is still no mention of this detail in Trenitalia's public documents, but it makes sense, it's a kind of operative info that is of bigger interest for the unions than the general public.


I also have several half-sources, usually well informed, who confirm there's some work going in this direction. Still, I wouldn't place a bet on it till the day I see one departing a station... but there are good chances.


----------



## AlexNL

Wilhem275 said:


> Lucky you, it's also a quite scenic route, with many parts along the sea.


Won't be long before the trains start to rust then. :nuts:


----------



## Wilhem275

LOL, I thought the same :lol:


----------



## Maarten Otto

I knew it..... It was all a set up...











(Inside a V250 relay area)


----------



## Slagathor

Maarten Otto said:


> I knew it..... It was all a set up...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Inside a V250 relay area)


Tinypic is banned on this site, but here's the URL:

http://nl.tiny pic.com/r/s5h6ky/9

(remove the space between _tiny_ and _pic_)


----------



## Surel

Rebasepoiss said:


> London underground has higher prices during rush hour.


And Tallin has a free of charge PT. Now you tell me which city has seen increased PT ridership and modal share...


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ Free public transport is a stupid idea, I think we can all agree on that. 

I was just bringing an example of what you mentioned. London has a capacity problem on the underground so it's perfectly logical to ask for higher prices during rush hour (if they keep working on increasing the capacity at the same time).


----------



## K_

Slagathor said:


> It's hideous, but then bright yellow and blue were always a bad combination.


One of the most attractive liveries on a Dutch train was the red and yellow Benelux livery. If they decide to use ICng sets on services to Belgium I hope they revive this livery. Could look very good...'


----------



## Wilhem275

I actually like the current yellow+blue, more than its white-ish variant applied to Sprinters.

Somebody posted here some renders of the current livery with black/dark grey instead of blue, I remember it looked much more modern and still "very NS".


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> One of the most attractive liveries on a Dutch train was the red and yellow Benelux livery. If they decide to use ICng sets on services to Belgium I hope they revive this livery. Could look very good...'


That will never happen, I'm afraid. The red part of this livery came from the red that was in force on the belgian trains at that time. Red + yellow like SNCB + NS. But this belgian red livery is almost extinct now. I hope they will come with something creative anyway, although I'm not holding my breath.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## Wilhem275

From the roads thread:


ChrisZwolle said:


> An interesting 1979 photo of the Botlek Bridge in the Port of Rotterdam. It shows a shared road/rail lane. It was put into operation on 9 July 1967 to handle Sunday traffic to the beaches (2 lanes westbound in the morning and 2 eastbound in the evening). It may have been removed after the motorway tunnel opened in 1980.



What's a passenger train doing in that area? Beach traffic too?


----------



## 3737

Probably an excurion train there is no passenger service only goods traffic.
The bridge on the foto was used until last year when it was replaced by a bigger bridge.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...eration-sprinter-emu-on-test.html?channel=529

*First NS New Generation Sprinter EMU on test*
Wednesday, January 18, 2017










_NETHERLANDS Railways (NS) has released footage of the first completed New Generation Sprinter (SNG) EMU, which is undergoing tests at CAF’s plant in Beasain in northern Spain_

NS placed a €510m order with CAF in December 2015 for 118 of the 1.5kV dc suburban trains, which are based on CAF’s Civity platform. The order comprises 68 three-car and 50 four-car sets

...


----------



## bagus70

I have some questions about Dutch railway:
1. Which cities / towns have tram or LRT network?
2. I'm planning to visit Netherlands in October. I was wondering if it's possible to visit Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg without any need to stay there? I'm planning to go from Amsterdam - Hamburg vv in a single day


----------



## Theijs

bagus70 said:


> I have some questions about Dutch railway:
> 1. Which cities / towns have tram or LRT network?
> 2. I'm planning to visit Netherlands in October. I was wondering if it's possible to visit Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg without any need to stay there? I'm planning to go from Amsterdam - Hamburg vv in a single day




AD 1: check the tram section at: http://egtre.info/wiki/Netherlands_-_General_Information for information and details.


----------



## verfmeer

bagus70 said:


> I have some questions about Dutch railway:
> 1. Which cities / towns have tram or LRT network?
> 2. I'm planning to visit Netherlands in October. I was wondering if it's possible to visit Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg without any need to stay there? I'm planning to go from Amsterdam - Hamburg vv in a single day


2. It is a five hour journey single trip, so you have to leave early. If you're willing to depart at 5:12 in the morning and return at 23:01 in the evening you have from 10:13 till 17:46 in Hamburg. Whether or not that is enough for you I can't Judge.


----------



## bagus70

verfmeer said:


> 2. It is a five hour journey single trip, so you have to leave early. If you're willing to depart at 5:12 in the morning and return at 23:01 in the evening you have from 10:13 till 17:46 in Hamburg. Whether or not that is enough for you I can't Judge.


10.13 until 17.46 is sufficient, but the trainlag is not worth attempting, I think. So I would stay overnight in Hamburg then


----------



## Wilhem275

A day trip NL-Hamburg, just to visit MW, is something I wouldn't suggest even to the most hardcore railfan 
It's a pretty dull and slow train ride, 2 trains (more if not departing from Amsterdam), and then there's the risk of spending some time in queue at MW.

When I visited it I came from Berlin (2 hrs) in the morning and then left in the evening with a night train, and I didn't even have time to see the city. I spent a lot of time in there, because it really takes long to fully appreciate it.

Overall you can do it, but be advised it's going to be a hard day. I'd probably stay for the night and pay a visit to the city on the following day, and maybe visit something else on the road (Bremen for example) or the tram/LRT network of Hamburg which is good too.


About trams and metros, only Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague have them and they're all nicely wide networks (plus a single line in Utrecht, not so interesting).

If you're interested in the systems more than in the travel itself, the Rotterdam network is pretty much "standard", wide but nothing so interesting to see (well, like the city itself...  ), Amsterdam is nice for trams sneaking in the crowded old city plus the metro ring (combined with the main railway, something unique), while in The Hague there's the most interesting tram network IMO; a mix of modern and old, a stretch shared with the metro, elevated and underground parts with interesting architecture... and a trip to the Scheveningen beach is always worth it, even in October


----------



## suasion

I have also on more than 1 occasion missed a connecting train at Osnabruck, it is more of a problem in the Amsterdam direction due to the train being bi-hourly.


----------



## bagus70

So yeah, I probably won't visit Wunderland on this October's trip. I think enjoying rail scene in Netherlands is sufficient


----------



## Suburbanist

I rode an old DD-AR today. I thought they had all been renovated or scrapped?


----------



## da_scotty

bagus70 said:


> So yeah, I probably won't visit Wunderland on this October's trip. I think enjoying rail scene in Netherlands is sufficient


You can go to Miniworld in rotterdam, it's similar but smaller.



Suburbanist said:


> I rode an old DD-AR today. I thought they had all been renovated or scrapped?


A small amound has been reactivated, they are really shitty inside but it's better then standing.
They are activated so the Mat'64 could be scrapped, and until all the FLIRTS are in to service they will remain in service as sprinters.
There are 11 EMU-4 sets composed as : 4*DDM+1700 loco
There are 18 EMU-3 sets composed as : 3*DD-AR + 1700 loco


----------



## The Polwoman

Finally the connection between Breda and The Hague is restored, though still with transfers for Tilburg and Eindhoven this finally brings an improvement to travel speeds from previous year instead of worsening.

It took even longer, until 9:00 instead of 5:30/6:00 as this morning a kettle wagon had a bad smell near Lage Zwaluwe, which is solved.
http://www.bndestem.nl/regio/ooster...age-zwaluwe-treinverkeer-rijdt-weer-1.6849452

For Breda departures: http://www.ns.nl/actuele-vertrektijden/avt?station=bd
Note however that the new connection may be more unstable because of too many reasons. The trains are exactly the same as the IC-Direct, of which 5% (!) is cancelled on average.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The problems and alternative arrangements in Breda you allure to were mostly related to renovation of Rotterdam Blaak and the Willemspoortunnel


----------



## da_scotty

Makes me happy, 20 min less travel time on a 2 hour journey and no 20min wait in Breda!


----------



## Grzegorz.Janoszka

For quite a while there are similar scenes in the Haarlem train repair workshop. There are some trains unmoved for a few months, they seem to be blocked by a wrecked car, container, tyres and so on.

Anybody knows what is going on there?


----------



## AlexNL

I've asked, looks like it's an exercise for the emergency services.


----------



## Suburbanist

If they are using LED displays they should alternate the displays, at least the orientation messages. Cost is almost nothing and better than cramping abbreviated words.


----------



## The Polwoman

Slagathor said:


> Oh god please don't. NS can't do proper English. Have you ever read their rules and guidelines signs on the trains? What a toe-curling cringe fest. Like it was written by a 12 year old for a school assignment.


Even at my level of proficiency the grammar on these signs looks nasty. I think that, with changing the colour, it is already clear enough for passengers to see that there is something unusual going on there. Like +5min in red is very clear to me that it is a delay. Cancelled: with a stripe going through it, it is clear enough to me that the train is cancelled. Or actually the faded colour and red text says enough as well.

The mentioned accent on the RET is sufficient for me. The sharp contrast with Dutch is annoying sometimes but the information provided will arrive well at native speakers.


----------



## Slagathor

Weissenberg said:


> Well, if there's will, there's a way. Earlier this year RET started using bilingual announcements as well, and as you can guess it was beyond terrible. But then they hired a British-born voice actress and this is the result.


Always with the snobbish British women... I wonder if it's the same lady who reads the announcements in The Hague's public transport. I dislike her. 

Canadians speak the nicest English, please ask them.



The Polman said:


> Even at my level of proficiency the grammar on these signs looks nasty. I think that, with changing the colour, it is already clear enough for passengers to see that there is something unusual going on there. Like +5min in red is very clear to me that it is a delay. Cancelled: with a stripe going through it, it is clear enough to me that the train is cancelled. Or actually the faded colour and red text says enough as well.
> 
> The mentioned accent on the RET is sufficient for me. The sharp contrast with Dutch is annoying sometimes but the information provided will arrive well at native speakers.


Yeah I generally prefer signs and symbols. If you've ever hired a car in America, you may have noticed they have everything spelled out on the dashboard ("lights", "fuel") where European cars just have symbols. The symbols are nicer.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Slagathor said:


> Yeah I generally prefer signs and symbols. If you've ever hired a car in America, you may have noticed they have everything spelled out on the dashboard ("lights", "fuel") where European cars just have symbols. The symbols are nicer.


Not only dashboards, but road signs too.
"Do not enter", "One way", "Speed limit" – whyyyy?

Maybe Americans just like to put text on everything. Compare the city flag of Breda to the flag of San Francisco


----------



## 3737

The first SNG has left the factory in Spain towards the testtrack at Velim (Czech Republic).


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Why is NS ordering both Stadler and CAF trains? Wouldn't maintanance be cheaper if they had just one type of train?


----------



## AlexNL

The SNG tender was won by CAF. The Stadler FLIRT trains were an emergency order as NS suddenly needed more trains than they had planned for due to circumstances partly out of their control.


----------



## Weissenberg

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> Maybe Americans just like to put text on everything.


Reminds me of this TED video:




:lol:


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

^^
That's where I got it from :lol:

Tbh, I could just be presumptuous, because I do not know what is the state of minor flags in other countries. From where I am from in Latvia 2 of some 70–80 municipalities do have flags with their name on it.


----------



## Alargule

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> Not only dashboards, but road signs too.
> "Do not enter", "One way", "Speed limit" – whyyyy?


Don't forget that symbols were only recently introduced in Europe (can't talk for other continents/cultures) - before that, lettered signs were ubiquitous. It would almost seem that the whole modernist movement that introduced symbols in the first place was a typically 'European' trait.


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ It's a typical generic thing here in Europe to use simple, easily recognisable flags for subnational/local entities. Look at the mess at the other side of the ocean, using a symbol with complex textures, okay, but either do it realistic or simplistic and in many cases it is neither of both. And worse, writing their names and even slogans on the flag! That's not how it should be, a kid should be able to recognise and to draw it.
But if I can give one away:

Draw, in dark blue, an arrow to the left. Go to the right, at a small distance from the arrow you just drew. There you start drawing the right arrow. Do not attach the lines to each other, rather go to the tail of the left arrow, let the horizontal line at the left arrow go down to the right at an angle of 45* until you reach the same height as the bottom of both arrows and almost reach the leftmost point of the right arrow. Now draw to the bottom end of the right arrow.
Then go to the tail of the right arrow, draw 45* up to the left until you reach the height of the top of both arrows and almost at the tail of the left arrow (before the left tail goes horizontal). Now continue to the left. See?

It represents going forth and back of a train in its journey. Actually very simple and everyone recognises this as the symbol of our railways despite the fact that others took over lines in recent years. It is in use since the railway revolution we had after 1968, ending the time of the negative status quo on the system.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Alargule said:


> Don't forget that symbols were only recently introduced in Europe (can't talk for other continents/cultures) - before that, lettered signs were ubiquitous. It would almost seem that the whole modernist movement that introduced symbols in the first place was a typically 'European' trait.


We have a different definition of recently :lol:



> the basic patterns of most traffic signs were set at the 1908 International Road Congress in Paris. In 1909, nine European governments agreed on the use of four pictorial symbols, indicating "bump", "curve", "intersection", and "grade-level railroad crossing". The intensive work on international road signs that took place between 1926 and 1949 eventually led to the development of the European road sign system.


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## Surel

Europe has much bigger need for symbols with all its languages.

On the other side, it is argued that pictograms can be dumbing abstract thinking.


----------



## 8166UY

I was taking the sprinter from Uitgeest to Rotterdam friday and there were actually English anouncements for the large stops. Not in an annoying accent too. Was a first for me, so maybe the NS actually is making everything bilingual in the close future.


----------



## Alargule

Surel said:


> Europe has much bigger need for symbols with all its languages.


As railway systems predominantly focus on domestic passengers, I think there might be other reasons why symbols became more widespread on the continent than overseas (not taking into account road signs).


----------



## Momo1435

VIRM EMU almost arriving at Amsterdam Amstel Station from it's previous stop Amsterdam Centraal. Taken yesterday.


IMG_1382 by Momo1435, on Flickr


----------



## The Polwoman

Alargule said:


> As railway systems predominantly focus on domestic passengers, I think there might be other reasons why symbols became more widespread on the continent than overseas (not taking into account road signs).


Partially influenced by road symbols in some cases and other things that are common throughout Europe. You still see however different symbols for specific things like train stations (in the Netherlands using a particular Dutch ICM EMU front for that), but at the other side symbols are common because of either European laws like with ERTMS and sometimes as it is just practical because don't forget we have freight traffic as well. It is hard enough already to switch between all the countries for these drivers, some things just had to be common like omitting the last zero from speed limits in certain countries. Not that any cargo train would go 800km/h though :lol:.


----------



## The Polwoman

8166UY said:


> I was taking the sprinter from Uitgeest to Rotterdam friday and there were actually English anouncements for the large stops. Not in an annoying accent too. Was a first for me, so maybe the NS actually is making everything bilingual in the close future.


Since these signs were changed in stations and also having introduced announcements in English at important nodes, this is likely the way the NS is heading to. I heard it as well at Rotterdam Centraal in the SLT. I'm curious what happens in a FLIRT near Eindhoven...

By the way, talking about flirts, April the 3rd. That will be the date of the The Hague-Breda-Eindhoven-reunification via HSR and some extra services seeing the FLIRT being introduced.
- Other trains will be extended
- The reliability of the Breda-Tilburg-Eindhoven section will go down the drain, likely more than 10% of the trains will never be driven 
- This will also affect HSR and Rotterdam-The Hague caused by a lack of spare material. The spare material is, against all logic, located at The Hague instead of somewhere in the middle, like the bogus Amsterdam location of all IC Direct spare trains.
- The extended Lelystad-Dordrecht train will be scrapped and terminate at Dordrecht and instead an unfrequent train will go further to Breda 
- Another special NS Flirt will be seen from Arnhem to Dusseldorf under the Abellio brand. Finally a local/regional train to Germany from Arnhem!


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## Suburbanist

I think they should electrify short sections of railways surrounded by electricity, such as Tiel-Arnhem Zuid.


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## Suburbanist

The Polman said:


> - The extended Lelystad-Dordrecht train will be scrapped and terminate at Dordrecht and instead an unfrequent train will go further to Breda
> -


There will be 2 Sprinter trains per hour (24 min) and 1 short IC train (18 min) per hour. It is not _that_ bad. I wonder what rolling stock will they use for this Breda-Dordrecht IC shuttle... 

I also wonder is a direct Rotterdam - Roosendaal train would be faster if routed via HSL without entering Breda. I'm not sure about the track layout between HSL and the Breda-Roosendal line.


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## LtBk

How would you guys rank the Dutch passenger rail system on a 0-10 scale?


----------



## Suburbanist

TM_Germany said:


> It is possible to purchase tickets from other railway operators (like DB) that obviously aren't Chipkaarts (like Cellphone or Online- tickets) How are people with such tickets able to access the platforms?


Every station has some gates that read QR codes, printed or through your phone screen.


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## TM_Germany

okay, thanks ^^


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## 8166UY

There are QR-code scanners at the gates. The wide ones (for strollers and such) always have them.


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## Slagathor

LtBk said:


> How would you guys rank the Dutch passenger rail system on a 0-10 scale?


Pff I hardly know where to start.

In terms of daily use, reliability and accessibility (density), probably 8. I also quite like the rent-a-bike system (OV-fiets). If you live in town A and you work in town B, the Dutch railways will get you there.

In terms of what it _could_ be (how the high speed line is completely underutilized and how the speeds are generally quite low at 140, as well as the shortage of reliable and decent international connections) I'm gonna have to go with a 5.


----------



## flierfy

LtBk said:


> How would you guys rank the Dutch passenger rail system on a 0-10 scale?


9,99
It may not be perfect, but it comes pretty close to that.


----------



## Suburbanist

The Dutch government is too slow to approve new high speed projects, and it canceled a project to bring Groningen within a 90min travel time from Amsterdam :bash:


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## AlexNL

I would go with a 7.5. Overall I am pretty satisfied with the railway network, but there are a couple of buts:

1) The drama around the high speed line. It has been handled badly when the line was first put out to tender, and has been dealt with horribly ever since. NS hasn't performed well, still doesn't perform well, and is unlikely to perform well. Maybe things will improve when the ICNG trains arrive, but that is so far away that any other operator could have also realised that.

2) The network itself is being stretched to its limits with project such as PHS (a train every 10 minutes), which creates bottlenecks and forces ProRail to take drastic measures (DSSU) which reduce flexibility and make different service patterns very hard. 

3) 140 km/h top speed, on only a part of the network. Seriously? When I am traveling from Den Bosch to Utrecht, it's not uncommon to see cars on the adjacent A2 highway overtaking my train. The speed of the train should at least be 160 km/h, not 130 km/h.


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## LtBk

Is there any demand for faster service? Does the Dutch gov have long term plans for faster services?


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## AlexNL

Demand for faster services will definitely be there. The current infrastructure setup doesn't give much leeway for faster services, because:

1) The overhead lines supply 1500V DC to the trains. While trains can run 160 under 1500 V, it takes a long time to actually reach that speed and the power draw is heavy. Conversion to 3000V would help.

2) The signalling system (ATB-EG) is programmed to not allow speeds above 140 km/h. As ATB is a "Class B" system, changing the parameters is no longer allowed under EU regulations. To get higher speeds, ETCS will have to be installed.

3) There are still many level crossings, so these would either have to be adapted (i.e. close a bit earlier) or would have to be removed altogether.

4) There are still many lines where there are intermediate stations whose platforms are right next to the running lines, i.e. there are no passing loops. If trains were to run at 200 kph, these intermediate stations would have to be reconstructed. On newly built/upgraded infrastructure this is however taken into account (see Hanzelijn).


----------



## da_scotty

I would say 8.5

a) Trains are clean, safe, modern. Since the removal of Mat'64 there is barely any old stock left. All trains are modern or refurbished. Comparing this to some other modern/major EU nations the Netherlands is at the top of its field.

Yes there are only few food/drink options on board, but at all non-local stations there are shops/coffee stands etc. 

Nearly all trains have on-board-info, and soon nearly all have WiFi (great Dutch invention). 

B) Trains are frequent, and I mean really frequent. We Dutch forget that. But having (nearly) all lines at 30min/intervals is amazing. Major stations have a 15min/interval and trunk routes are evolving to a 10min/interval local / 10min/interval Intercity interval. I don't think any nation on earth (even Japan) can beat such a comprehensive and wide-spread frequent service.

C) Investments, while engineering is anyoning for passengers from time to time. Even these are well-handled now-a-days with frequent bus replacements (and often free coffee/thee). The network is evolving constantly.

All the major stations have been renewed, renovated or extended. 

D) Delay

While dutch people will not generaly agree, trains run on time. Delays if they happen are often not more then 5/10minutes. While Dutch people think this is a lot, it really issnt. Especially in combination with 30min/interval Intercity services, even if you miss the connection, your delay will be minimal. Unlike some major EU nations where 2h intervals are not unknown for IC services.

---------------

Down points might be the High speed service. But does a country where IC-trains have stops every 15-30min need a genuine high speed service? I dont think so. Average journeys are short, and few people do a daily Groingen-Amsterdam or Amsterdam-Maastricht. And even then it takes only 2-3hr so what are we talking about.
I'dd love to see more frequent services and faster station speed (yards at 80 instead of 40) save more time then 5min at 200km/h.


----------



## Suburbanist

The opportunity for higher station speed was pretty much dropped when they did not build higher-grade switches on major reconstruction projects in Breda, Utrecht and Rotterdam.


----------



## Suburbanist

A positive aspect of the Dutch trains is that they are relatively cheap for intense use. A few years ago NS restructured its subscription/pass offers, and now there are some bargains, such as a € 99/month unlimited offpeak + weekend pass.


----------



## Wilhem275

While I consider the Dutch network as an inspiration for high capacity solutions, it also looks like who designed it couldn't care less for speed... 
Yes, speed in stations can give a significant advantage, and some of these stations are a triumph of double switches icard:

Amersfoort, Nijmegen, Amsterdam CS itself... In some cases (Rotterdam) space costraints didn't leave much room for improvement, in others they just went for the simplest design with the cheapest Lego blocks. Hilversum is an example.


Overall I like the approach used with DSSU, not flexible but has high capacity without giving up on decent speeds.


----------



## The Polwoman

AlexNL said:


> Demand for faster services will definitely be there. The current infrastructure setup doesn't give much leeway for faster services, because:
> 
> 1) The overhead lines supply 1500V DC to the trains. While trains can run 160 under 1500 V, it takes a long time to actually reach that speed and the power draw is heavy. Conversion to 3000V would help.
> 
> 2) The signalling system (ATB-EG) is programmed to not allow speeds above 140 km/h. As ATB is a "Class B" system, changing the parameters is no longer allowed under EU regulations. To get higher speeds, ETCS will have to be installed.
> 
> 3) There are still many level crossings, so these would either have to be adapted (i.e. close a bit earlier) or would have to be removed altogether.
> 
> 4) There are still many lines where there are intermediate stations whose platforms are right next to the running lines, i.e. there are no passing loops. If trains were to run at 200 kph, these intermediate stations would have to be reconstructed. On newly built/upgraded infrastructure this is however taken into account (see Hanzelijn).




I think in the end it is a primary priority for ProRail to mull on 160km/h as soon as ERTMS is fully in use on each part of the network and to introduce 3000V at the same time. This will especially be effective on lines around Utrecht where speeds near the station are much higher than they once were, infrastructure has been changed and most of all many passengers are passing by. Another one is those of dead-end branches where travel times to the Randstad and other economic important regions are longer than an hour.


----------



## MarcVD

You realize that going from 1500 to 3000V would require a complete renewal of the whole NS fleet ?


----------



## Suburbanist

MarcVD said:


> You realize that going from 1500 to 3000V would require a complete renewal of the whole NS fleet ?


They can retrofit the motors, can't they?


----------



## Wilhem275

Not really, you have to rebuild all the electronics and it's an expensive and long job. Probably easier on recent stuff (Stadler), while for VIRM or ICM it will probably mean the end of their life.

I don't get why NS is not buying new trains with both voltages, it would make the switch immensely easier.


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## MarcVD

Not only the electronics but also all the high voltage cabling insulation. If you have space for the transformer, upgrading for 25 kV is much easier.


----------



## Slagathor

Wilhem275 said:


> Not really, you have to rebuild all the electronics and it's an expensive and long job. Probably easier on recent stuff (Stadler), while for VIRM or ICM it will probably mean the end of their life.
> 
> *I don't get why NS is not buying new trains with both voltages*, it would make the switch immensely easier.


Ten bucks says the knuckle-draggers haven't even thought about it. 

They're probably reading this right now, with a sinking feeling, thinking: "Oh ****."

I see you, NS.


----------



## da_scotty

^^
Think again, most new trains have provisions/room for equipment for 25kv operation. It's still not a easy/quick job though..

And why they don't buy dual voltage? Why buy for something when the descision about 3kv/25kv hasn't been made yet.
I'd rather see them buying more stock then investing for something that you might not even need.


----------



## MarcVD

In fact the french have largely proven with their own south-west and south-east networks that 1500 V is perfectly suitable for high density and reasonably high speed. You just need catenary with enough cross section, and enough substations. Gosh, the english have even proven that
for 750V third rail !


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Still substandard solution. Dutch railways should move towards 25kV AC electrification on all major lines.


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## MarcVD

That should indeed be the perfection solution if banknotes were growing on trees.


----------



## Suburbanist

MarcVD said:


> That should indeed be the perfection solution if banknotes were growing on trees.


Electrification at 25 kV AC can be staggered with fleet renewal plans. ProRail will often spend high-10-digit sums on tunnel projects like Nijverdal, so it is not out of line suggest change in electrical current. Sure enough, all cables and isolators needs to be replaced, however the poles do not. Plenty of money is saved with reduced need for electrical substations along the lines as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

I wonder how is the conversion project of Kempen-Zwolle railway into a tramway going...


----------



## Silly_Walks

MarcVD said:


> That should indeed be the perfection solution if banknotes were growing on trees.


The report done a while back shows 25kV is the 'cheapest' in the long term.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> Electrification at 25 kV AC can be staggered with fleet renewal plans. ProRail will often spend high-10-digit sums on tunnel projects like Nijverdal, so it is not out of line suggest change in electrical current. Sure enough, all cables and isolators needs to be replaced, however the poles do not. Plenty of money is saved with reduced need for electrical substations along the lines as well.


I think the main cost, and which causes most resistance to changing to 25kV, lies in the fact that many structures need to be modified for the bigger clearances required.


----------



## da_scotty

Suburbanist said:


> I wonder how is the conversion project of Kempen-Zwolle railway into a tramway going...


It isn't beign converted I believe.
Yes electrifcation and a new station at Z-Stadshagen are coming, but no conversion to a tramline.

Syntus will take over services on the line, I have heard that Kampen-Enschede services might be a option in the future. Joining the Zwolle-Enschede and Zwolle-Kampen line.

in Dutch: https://www.prorail.nl/projecten/zwollekampen


----------



## 3737

Silly_Walks said:


> I think the main cost, and which causes most resistance to changing to 25kV, lies in the fact that many structures need to be modified for the bigger clearances required.


Some parts of the catenary are already prepared for 25kV like Utrecht-Woerden or Utrecht-Amsterdam.
The biggest problem is that AC power is interfering with ATB.
There were problems with railway lines which run parallel to the HSL-zuid like Dordrecht-Breda where the AC current was interfering with the ATB of the trains running next to it.
And the conversion to ERMTS will take ages (the first line will be equipped in 2023) and also only a part of the Dutch railway lines will be converted.









Link (the black lines all already equipped with ERMTS)
So before they can convert to 25 kV, they need to convert to ERMTS first.


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## MarcVD

And the conversion to another current type is something quite difficult to organize if services on the line are to be maintained. Namur Luxembourg is currently going over this and it will take something like 8 years.


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ I saw this on a cabview video lately when they were installing those single wires located above all others which is usual for 25kV.

In the Netherlands this would be a straight nightmare for train passengers as our fascistoid safety laws would require years of closing railways altogether, which is unacceptable on our not-so-detailed network. With a few weekend closures however we can obtain 3kV much easier.


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## Suburbanist

Can't they close a major line for a summer for this conversion jobs? For instance, close the Utrecht-Den Bosch sector for 8 weeks and put special long trains via Nijmegen to make up for it.


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## Wilhem275

I assumed the decision was already made in favour of 3 kV.

TBH, 3 kV is probably more than enough for most of what the Dutch lines are capable of, even if speeds are raised.


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> I assumed the decision was already made in favour of 3 kV.
> 
> TBH, 3 kV is probably more than enough for most of what the Dutch lines are capable of, even if speeds are raised.


DC is not the best way to power a massively used network! AC has many advantages, and it can be integrated into the national electricity grid.


----------



## mistertl

The decision for 3 kV has been made, but there is still not a 'go' on the project.
As this moment, the project is planned for 2030-2035, after the ETCS roll-out.
The Netherlands will be divided in 12 to 15 parts, and each month, a part will be switched to 3kV. In one and a half years, all parts will be converted to 3 kV.


----------



## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> DC is not the best way to power a massively used network! AC has many advantages, and it can be integrated into the national electricity grid.


To the contrary, AC traction integrates very badly in a national grid. This is because it is simple phase and therefore creates an unbalanced load. DC is much better on that aspect because rectification can use 3 phases.


----------



## The Polwoman

mistertl said:


> The decision for 3 kV has been made, but there is still not a 'go' on the project.
> As this moment, the project is planned for 2030-2035, after the ETCS roll-out.
> The Netherlands will be divided in 12 to 15 parts, and each month, a part will be switched to 3kV. In one and a half years, all parts will be converted to 3 kV.




Interesting, hoping that a go will come soon during the next cabinet period (hoping that all these backroom talks will go pretty smoothly of course). And pretty quick actually. Do you also know how these regions will be divided or what kind of region would be first? And which types of trains do actually have to be enhanced or phased out?


----------



## 3737

The Polman said:


> And which types of trains do actually have to be enhanced or phased out?


ICMm/SGMm/NID and maybe the first generation of VIRMm will be fased out at that time.
If they decide to enhance trains to 3 kV they can still drive on half power at 1,5kV parts.
Belgian trains use this trick to reach Roosendaal and Maastricht.


----------



## AlexNL

It works on the ancient stock because there's a lot of mechanics and little electronics in there. The new Desiro ML units will simply cut out when they sense 1.5 kV DC, as they're not designed for it.

I expect something similar with the newer stuff: while an SGMm and an ICMm might work fine under 1.5 kV (even if they've been adapted for 3 kV) I am pretty sure that SLT will be harder to adapt.


----------



## da_scotty

^^^^
I know, but it's b******t.
The IC-Direct/Coach stock is here for at least 4 more years, and I wouldn't be surprised if it has to stay for 6-7 years.

^^
September '17 I believe.


----------



## AlexNL

That should be september 2017, I don't know the precise day though.


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## Slagathor

After the summer, like that makes sense.


----------



## AlexNL

Just in time for the peak season... when a new college year starts and many students haven't moved out yet


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Theijs said:


> NS won't, I have written before here why.
> One of the reasons: new stock in the way...


When and what will be the new trains? I was very annoyed that now from Breda I don't have WiFi not only in the Rotterdam direction, but also in the Eindhoven direction


----------



## MrAronymous

Probably Alstom Concordia.


----------



## Momo1435

New railway bridge under construction in Utrecht. The bridge will cross the Amsterdam-Rhine Canal between Utrecht Centraal and Utrecht Leidsche Rijn. It's being put together over 500m from the railway line. When it's fully assembled it will be moved over land to it's final position right between the existing railway bridge and a road bridge. This will happen in November.


IMG_5172 by Momo1435, on Flickr


After the new bridge has opened the existing bridge will be renovated. When that's completed the whole line between Utrecht Centraal and Woerden will have 4 tracks.


----------



## AlexNL

MrAronymous said:


> Probably Alstom Concordia.


Coradia  

The units will likely be a variant of the Coradia Liner which Alstom are building for SNCF.


----------



## Suburbanist

So I noticed NS is still tweaking their travel information system. Some things are better now: disruption advice always alternate between Dutch and English (red typeface on white background). Delays are also shown win red. White typeface on blue background seems now reserved to information on trains following the next one.


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ some, but worsened on the visibility of disruptions from a distance like if everyone takes just one actual second to check departure times on their mobile phone (3 seconds to take, 5 seconds to unblock, 5 seconds to go to the correct app and because the app has a slight lag, 10 seconds before you switched to the right screen). In that time I could've seen the disruption on the screen that it is delayed so I won't run, or turn back when the screen was faded like in the past. Now it all takes extra time.


----------



## city_man

Eurostar to run direct trains from London to Amsterdam by end of the year

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...to-amsterdam-by-end-of-the-year-a3546141.html


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## Wilhem275

Doesn't tell how the passenger checks issue will be solved.

Also, I don't get why they speak of the Rotterdam connection as a brand new thing, like the Amsterdam service won't already run through Rotterdam CS...


In theory, a platform may be segregated in both stations, but for London-bound trains only, and definitely not in Schiphol.


----------



## MarcVD

Apparently passenger check facilities will be built in Amsterdam and Rottterdam. 

E* trains won't stop in Schiphol and Antwerp. 

So no pax detraining in Brussels.

Aim is a journey A'dam-London in less than 4 hours.


----------



## Suburbanist

They will build platform extensions in Rotterdam and Amsterdam for Eurostar. Schiphol will likely be not served by the Eurostar, at least initially. 

In Amsterdam, they will extend platform 15b.

In Rotterdam, they will use platform 2 and extend it further. It has been underutilized since the end of Hoek van Holland services.

Trains will be operated like this: half the trainset will depart from Amsterdam with passengers going to London, the other half with passengers going to get off in Bruxelles-Midi. Both sections of the train will be kept closed off to each other.

In Bruxelles-Midi, the half-train with passengers to London stays put while the other half is emptied of passangers coming from Netherlands and then opened to passengers boarding in Bruxelles-Midi. 

This will take 20-25 minutes of stop time at Bruxelles-Midi on London-bound trains.


----------



## Wilhem275

I think you mean platform 1 in Rotterdam. But yes, those are the only confined spaces available.
AlexNL explained how the track layout in Rotterdam was modified to allow train from the HSL to reach track 1 (previously not possible), although IIRC that path only leads to half of it, which may not be long enough for a double E320.
The current layout of Rotterdam CS.


It's funny, because the Dutch network makes extensive use of the island platform concept, which is very efficient, and that's why those two are so easily expendable to the Brit's paranoia... only because they're remnants of less efficient designs.

It's just crazy to think of the costs and technical efforts to make those trains run at high speeds and _under the freaking sea_, and then have them sitting for 25 minutes because oh my! God forbid we're not an island anymore :nuts: icard:


Anyway, speaking of Schiphol, I wonder if there's a really strong demand for it. After all, if one has to reach it to catch a plane, it's probably better to just begin the trip at a UK airport 4 hours earlier... and there's plenty of connections from Brussel and Rotterdam anyway.


----------



## M-NL

Do realise that Schiphol is a major hub airport, with planes arriving and departing from and to destinations not served by the Paris and London airports (and vice versa).
However at this moment Schiphol is so crowded that at peak times you need to account for at least an hour to one and a half hours to pass security and passport control. For the past years every time I arrived at Schiphol I noticed the lines at immigration had increased yet again. In fact I can't remember any airport I've ever been to having longer lines.
So despite 4 hours travel time sounding long, accounting for the complete end to end journey the train could be the best option.


----------



## Slagathor

The Eurostar is not going to stop at Schiphol. 

Impression of the new check-in booths in Rotterdam (source):



[IMG]

Edit: I removed the pictures because the plans for Rotterdam have changed. They will now use platform 1, which means a new booth is no longer necessary.


----------



## da_scotty

The second picture is correct, the building will be build on platfrom one, which will be expanded over track one, effectively becoming platform 2.

Track 2 has connection to the HSL line, and is not used anymore since the closure of the Hoekse-Lijn. I wonder if they will use it as a dedicated platform for Thaly's services as well.


----------



## Weissenberg

Looks good, though it makes me wonder, who's going to pay for these check-in booths?


----------



## Slagathor

^^ Plans have just changed. There will not be any booths in Rotterdam, instead they will use platform 1.

They will actually use track 2 by putting a platform extension over track 1, apparently. This takes care of the problem with the length of the train that Wilhelm275 earlier referred to.

Track 2 doesn't currently have a platform, as you may know.

The article in question mentions that platform 1 "will be extended across track 1 so it reaches track 2" but it doesn't specify how that will happen. This could be a temporary construction (this sort of thing) or a permanent change. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Theijs

The EU has granted NL grants to dubble the track and electrify the cross border line Heerlen - Aachen.
Source: http://ift.tt/2sQJyo9


----------



## Slagathor

That's a good idea but as usual we'll probably just end up waiting on the Germans...


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ we can better temporarily lease the land, giving the permits, construct it ourselves and when it's finished it should be given back. Actually, better lease it to China overall for five years. Then we'll see how fast it all goes!


----------



## 3737

Arriva has won the next contract to operate their regional passenger service in the northern provinces Friesland and Groningen until 2035.
The new contracts starts at December 2020

The current fleet of 51 Stadler GTW 2/8 and GTW 2/6 DMU's will be refurbished with new powerpacks with batteries to reducre CO2 emmisions.
Also Arriva will introduce a new logo and livery foor the GTW.

Stadler will also build 18 new trains called Flirtino.
Expected is that the Flirtino is a hybrid between a FLirt and a GTW powerpack like the FLIRT's which run at Valle d’Aosta.
The new units will run on biodiesel and are prepared for a rebuild to zero CO2 emission.

New logo









Refurbished GTW









The new Flirtino









Link


----------



## Suburbanist

So no electrification until 2035 at least ?


----------



## Wilhem275

So, the Flirtinos will be bimodal diesel+electric like the units designed for VDA?
It's also a good solution if they plan to electrify the area step by step.


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## 3737

^^ yes.
Someone found a better picture of the Flirtino.


ReisThijs said:


> link


They will be used between Leeuwarden and Groningen which at the moment is a 40 km line for diesel powered trains online.
The diesel powerpack in the middle will be replaced over time with a battery.
It can run 10 km without needing power from overhead wires on a full battery.
So in the future only a part of the line has to be electrified which reduces infrastructure costs.


----------



## The Polwoman

^^
In that case one can save costly infrastructure, likely not having to make any further changes to bridges, tunnels and viaducts. But some straight tracks near stations will be provided with overhead wires.


----------



## The Polwoman

*Dear travellers*

Our national railways will go to a gender-neutral system of announcements. Instead of using _Ladies and gentlemen/Dames en heren_ at the start of an announcement we will use _Dear travellers/Beste reizigers_.

http://nieuws.ns.nl/beste-reizigers/

Tuffy, as we call the lady of announcements (she is not gender neutral) will start using it at the start of the new timetable in December.

What is neither gender-neutral are our toilets in the trains, let alone the train stations (which are separated 'of course').

We'll see...

http://www.rtvnoord.nl/nieuws/181372/Arriva-gaat-ook-nadenken-over-Beste-reizigers

Arriva may be following suit.


----------



## Slagathor

I hate Tuffy, she doesn't pronounce the R right and has an ugly accent.


----------



## AlexNL

I think Tuffie is alright, although a bit more variations in how she pronounces things wouldn't be bad sometimes.

If you want to hear a bad voice, step into a Sprinter.


----------



## Slagathor

Oh I thought it was the same woman everywhere.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

The Polman said:


> Tuffy, as we call the lady of announcements (she is not gender neutral)


What would be a gender neutral voice? :lol:


----------



## Silly_Walks

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> What would be a gender neutral voice? :lol:


^^

Scarlett Johansson, I guess.


----------



## MrAronymous




----------



## AlexNL

Slagathor said:


> Oh I thought it was the same woman everywhere.


It's definitely not, just listen to how the word "Sprinter" is pronounced. Tuffie's announcements are completely different from how the voice of the SLT pronounces it and the FLIRT lady says it differently as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

When was Tuffy voice first introduced ?


----------



## AlexNL

Suburbanist said:


> When was Tuffy voice first introduced ?


According to Wikipedia Tuffie's voice was introduced in 2003.


----------



## 3737

AlexNL said:


> Tuffie's announcements are completely different from how the voice of the SLT pronounces it and the FLIRT lady says it differently as well.


I'm not sure if its true but I thought that the lady who was used for the announcements in the SLT has died a few years ago and they had to use a different voice due to new stations.


----------



## Suburbanist

Tonight I saw announcements for trains to Bruxelles-Midi in Breda, so I thought for 5 seconds they might have been doing some trial runs on HSL... then I realized they were just trains going via Roosendaal cut short due to reconstruction works south of Dordrecht...


----------



## 3737

Today the new ICNG mock-up was presented.
The ICNG will eventually replace the ICRMm rolling stock.


















Link


















Link


----------



## Slagathor

ICNG mock-up unveiled in Amersfoort
03 October 2017 | News

NS have unveiled the preliminary design for the Intercity New Generation (ICNG). NS placed the order for 79 such trains with Alstom in the summer of 2016. The mock-up that was presented in Amersfoort today was designed to give the general public an idea of what the new trains will look like. 

The trains will have a maximum speed of 200km/h and will be suitable for traveling on the high speed railway line between Amsterdam and the Belgian border.










The deal with Alstom consists of the delivery of 79 trains of which 49 will have 5 carriages and 30 will have 8 carriages. Altogether, the trains will have roughly 25.000 seats.

The trains will be equiped with (wheelchair accessible) lavatories, WiFi, travel information screens, separate trash collection, led-lighting with intelligent light control, (USB) plugs and extra luggage space.

_For more information (in Dutch) and photos, please go to the website of Rail Magazine._


----------



## Slagathor

3737 said:


> Today the new ICNG mock-up was presented.
> The ICNG will eventually replace the ICRMm rolling stock.
> 
> _[images removed]_


Great minds think alike, you just beat me to it.


----------



## 3737

^^ True :lol:

Also tonight they've started testing the SNG on Dutch soil.









Link


----------



## Wilhem275

So, I understand there will be 118 SNG by CAF.
Plus 58 new FLIRT (+6 for R-Net), plus the existing 131 SLT.

I guess the end is near for the SGMm...


Also, the ICNG will reasonably replace the 186+ICRm on the HSL. Some of the ICMm too?


Speaking of the ICNG, this will be its Italian brother, which will be used for regional services:










































































Most notable difference is Vmax (160 vs. 200), which in turn requires different bogies and less streamlined details (roof, headlights).

One thing I don't like of the Coradia family are the windows, always too small compared to some competitors.

I much prefer NS's colors, toilets included :lol:


----------



## Slagathor

Yeah I've been wondering how much longer ICMm is gonna be around...


----------



## da_scotty

The oldest ICMm is going to be replaced by the initial order of ICNG. There are options for more seats (up to 125.000 extra seats) to replace the rest.

But priority is to replace the ICR pulled trainsets.


----------



## Silly_Walks

So our 160 km/h train that never operated at 160 km/h, will be replaced by a 200 km/h train that will never operate at 200 km/h?


----------



## Slagathor

^^ Well they should do because the very first trains they will replace is the Intercity Direct on the high speed line.


----------



## Suburbanist

And provide service to Belgium


----------



## mistertl

No. They will not provide any service into Belgium. 
The Traxx+ICRmhi coaches will stay until the end of the current franchise ends in 2025.
However, there are two extra trains with a Belgium package on order. When NS gets a new contract from 2025, they have the possibility to order trains that have already been accepted in Belgium, which means that the current stock can be replaced within a smaller time window.


----------



## btrs

Slagathor said:


> ICNG mock-up unveiled in Amersfoort


Why did some stupid designer come up with the idea of a black front window band instead of continuing it all-blue ? Would have looked much better, and is also applied on NID.


----------



## Wilhem275

Probably because NS's blue is too light for that job. On the NID they tried a decent solution, but IMHO it doesn't really blend well with dark windows and frames.

Overall I like this solution, it's actually quite elegant.

I have the feeling blue is the culprit here, not black.
In general I think the NS livery would look much cooler by switching from the current flat blue to a dark metal grey.
More or less like the VIRM's front, that contrast works well there.


----------



## M-NL

Indeed the shape of the blue to black band just doesn't look right.
The shape of this train is ideal to use the mat'54 intercity livery as inspiration: The blue band should end just in front of the passenger windows, the space from the cabin side windows over the cabine doors should be just plain yellow, the top blue line should be made slightly narrower and have continued as far to the front as possible, or removed alltogether and finally the yellow section over the windshield should have been either blue or grey.
They still have plenty of time to make small changes to the livery, because even the first car hasn't been built yet.


----------



## Wilhem275

When I say that the Dutch network is a triumph of high capacity... just look at the first 2 minutes of this:






:cheers:

With the completion of the new bridge on the Woerden line, they'll be able to move 12 trains simultaneously


----------



## Suburbanist

NS announced the test on running 6 Intercity trains per hour between Eindhoven and Utrecht have been successful. The change will be made permanent for the 2018 timetable.


----------



## Wilhem275

Sweet.

Today there are 4 tph from Amsterdam CS (of which 2 to Arnhem and 2 to Eindhoven) + 4 tph from Schiphol/Amsterdam Zuid (same).

With the current timetable the CS and Zuid trains run close to each other and then meet at the same platform in Utrecht.
Such setup allows for 15' connections from both stations to anywhere; which is obtained with a direct connection every 30' plus a cross-platform change every 30' as well, mixed together.

This setup will probably come to an end with the new offer, since a 10' frequency towards Eindhoven won't sync well with the 15' spacing towards Arnhem. There was an easy simmetry with this 2+2/2+2 system.

So, what is the plan for 2018?
Will all 6 Eindhoven trains come from CS, or 4 from CS + 2 from Zuid?
And what happens for the Arnhem branch?


It's a bit weird, because a 10' frequency is not quite common in the half-hour based system of the Dutch OV. It's either 15' or 7.5, to be evenly spaced.


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> Sweet.
> 
> Today there are 4 tph from Amsterdam CS (of which 2 to Arnhem and 2 to Eindhoven) + 4 tph from Schiphol/Amsterdam Zuid (same).
> 
> With the current timetable the CS and Zuid trains run close to each other and then meet at the same platform in Utrecht.
> Such setup allows for 15' connections from both stations to anywhere; which is obtained with a direct connection every 30' plus a cross-platform change every 30' as well, mixed together.
> 
> This setup will probably come to an end with the new offer, since a 10' frequency towards Eindhoven won't sync well with the 15' spacing towards Arnhem. There was an easy simmetry with this 2+2/2+2 system.
> 
> So, what is the plan for 2018?
> Will all 6 Eindhoven trains come from CS, or 4 from CS + 2 from Zuid?
> And what happens for the Arnhem branch?
> 
> 
> It's a bit weird, because a 10' frequency is not quite common in the half-hour based system of the Dutch OV. It's either 15' or 7.5, to be evenly spaced.


This is how trains are operating in the trial (every Wednesday). 

Example timetable on Wednesdays mornings, from Utrecht to Eindhoven

09:03 - Amsterdam C. - Maastricht
09:09 - Schiphol - Nijmegen
09:14 - Amsterdam C - Eindhoven
09:24 - Schiphol - Venlo
09:24 - Amsterdam C. - Nijmegen
09:33 - Amsterdam C. - Maastricht
09:39 - Schiphol - Nijmegen
09:44 - Amsterdam C. - Eindhoven
09:54 - Schiphol - Venlo
09:54 - Amsterdam C. - Nijmegen

They are replacing some long waits in Utrecht by shorter dwell times (and I think people are supposed just to wait the next train in the same platform without having the whole simultaneous cross-platform thing, but then dwell times in Utrecht for some services were slashed from 9 to 3 minutes...). Transfers are still cross-platform but not simultaneous, most people wait for the next train to pull within 5 minutes.


----------



## Wilhem275

Thanks for the Wednesday tip. I built a quick comparison:










Assuming the rest of the offer will stay as it is, some notes:
1) Dwell times are pretty much the same. For the Schiphol - Nijmegen service they are virtually reduced from 5 to 3', but those 2' are just moved to the Bijlmer Arena stop. The rest of the timetable is identical.

2) Simultaneous cross-platform interchange is still possible every 30' instead of 15' (that's simple math, 2 being the GCF of 6 and 4).
The A'dam CS - Maastricht and Schiphol - Nijmegen don't match anymore.

3) Who loses from this?
- A'dam CS > Nijmegen still happens 4 times per hour, but not evenly spaced anymore. This adds 5' to some trips;
- same for Schiphol - Eindhoven
- Schiphol - south of Eindhoven gets messed up: it drops from 4 to 2 tph for stations between Eindhoven and Sittard, while Maastricht itself keeps the same 2 tph but gets +13' 

The last point can be easily avoided by *swapping around the Maastricht and Eindhoven services**, probably it's just a provisional situation.

There could also be some conflicts in other parts of the network, where the track will be shared by IC spaced 10/20/10/20 and Sprinters spaced 15/15/15/15 (e.g. between Bijlmer Arena and Uitgeest).

Overall it's clearly a compromise, a bit dirty but nothing too harmful. The gain in capacity on the main axis is really significant, compared with the rest of Europe.


* for this test they kept the current Alkmaar - Maastricht and just added an independent Amsterdam - Eindhoven to raise the frequency.
In the final timetable I wouldn't be surprised if they mixed the old and new services, getting an Alkmaar - Eindhoven and Amsterdam - Maastricht, just like they did last year splitting the Vlissingen - Lelystad in two overlapped branches.
All this while solving the Maastricht issue.


----------



## da_scotty

In the future the Nijmegen branch will get six trains as well, so it's kind of temporary.


----------



## Slagathor

It's not in the center though, it's next to it. 

There are a few modern buildings in Delft that I take issue with, but this isn't one of them. I think it works.


----------



## Wilhem275

I read somewhere that the classic Spoorkaart by treinreiziger.nl, the map with all Dutch rail services, will be published by NS itself from 2018.

I still have to see the pdf published, just found this preview:











Meanwhile I found an even more detailed version of the same project on an enthusiast's website:

http://www.nicospilt.com/pdf/Spoorkaart_2018.pdf

This one's a bit more technical, with all "train series" drawn as separate lines; I like it much more, quite a powerful instruments for any railfan out here 


It was about time NS moved on from the ugly thing seen in stations:
https://www.spoorpro.nl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/spoorkaart-20181.jpg


----------



## The Polwoman

^^
*About Overijssel*

The most detailed map says it already: map based on insights up to September:

http://www.rtvoost.nl/nieuws/281402/ook-spoorvernieuwing-tussen-enschede-en-zwolle-is-een-puinhoop

http://www.rtvoost.nl/nieuws/281393...n-zwolle-kampen-station-stadshagen-later-open

Things have gone horribly wrong with the electrification and speed increase on the railway lines of Kampen-Zwolle/Zwolle-Wierden(-Enschede).

This will mean that not only the new faster service will not go beyond Raalte to Zwolle for at least some months, it also includes that the new station Zwolle Stadshagen cannot open. The power on the overhead wires caused a dangerous situation because of failures during construction and the soil is too weak to bear the trains at 140kph. Between Raalte and Zwolle, electric substations were built incorrectly.


----------



## Wilhem275

Someone asked for more pics of the revived V250 - here they are.

The funniest part is that its home depot is still supposed to be Watergraafsmeer :lol: :lol: :lol:















































http://www.ferrovie.info/index.php/...-fyra-v250-trenitalia-in-livrea-frecciargento


----------



## Silly_Walks

The Grey Goose!


----------



## luka23

I love it actually!


----------



## da_scotty

Stunning!


----------



## Wilhem275

It'll probably end up with a lot of bright red on it, so don't fall in love with this silver livery.

Pretty much as this:









was turned into this:










But I agree, the V250 makes a much better figure now. The Fyra full white nose wasn't exactly helping...


----------



## 3737

Wilhem275 said:


> Someone asked for more pics of the revived V250 - here they are.
> 
> The funniest part is that its home depot is still supposed to be Watergraafsmeer :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ferrovie.info/index.php/...-fyra-v250-trenitalia-in-livrea-frecciargento


The Watergraafsmeer could also refer tot the last time the V250 was refurbished/maintained in Watergraafsmeer, would also explain the 2012 date.
It looks like the UIC code is the old code, NS-HSA (High Speed Alliance) doesn't exist any more.


----------



## Momo1435

The just didn't repaint this panels.


----------



## Slagathor

Still doing a half-a$$ed job, they never learn. Bits will start falling off again soon, just you watch.


----------



## 3737

^^They also forget to paint a red stripe on the front of its nose which I thought was mandatory in Italy.

It started snowing since yesterday in The Netherlands which means that the whole country is in gridlock. :lol:
Also today the new timetable started but due to the snow an adapted timetable is used today to solve malfunctions due to the weather faster.
Today also means the end of the usage of DMU's by the dutch railways.
Keolis is taking over Zwolle Kampen which is also been electrified

A POV of an ICMm in snowy conditions taken yesterday.





POV of a DM'90 on one of it's last days in service between Zwolle and Kampen.


----------



## webeagle12

Slagathor said:


> Still doing a half-a$$ed job, they never learn. Bits will start falling off again soon, just you watch.


Don't worry. They always can find parts in Netherlands next go rail tracks


----------



## RGR 523

*Changement d’itinéraire pour les IC Amsterdam – Bruxelles* 

Après le retrait en 2013 des automotrices électriques Fyra V 250, la relation Amsterdam CS – Bruxelles Midi était assurée par des rames de voitures ICR des NS, remorquées par des locomotives série 28 de la SNCB ou de Railpool, ou des Trax 186 des NS après leur homologation pour circuler sur le réseau belge. Ces trains transitaient par la ligne classique entre Schiphol et Anvers Luchtbal, et desservaient les gares d’Amsterdam CS, Schiphol (Aéroport), La Haye HS, Rotterdam Centraal, Dordrecht, Roosendaal, Anvers Central, Berchem, Malines, Aéroport de Bruxelles Zaventem, Bruxelles Nord et Bruxelles Midi, effectuant les 228 km du parcours en 3 heures 23, à la vitesse maximale aux Pays-Bas de 140 km/h. Au service annuel 2018, afin d’accélérer la relation, ces trains Benelux sont tracés, à 160 km/h vitesse maximale des Traxx et des voitures ICR, par les LGV HSL Zuid au Pays-Bas et L 4 en Belgique, et desservent Breda où aura lieu un changement de sens. 

La suite dans Rail Passion










Le train ICD 931 Breda - Amsterdam CS, assuré par une rame de voitures ICR encadrée par les 
Traxx 186.023 et 186.038 entre en gare d’Amsterdam CS à 14h21 (15 septembre 2017).


----------



## da_scotty

I'm sorry what language is that? We don't speak that in the Netherlands!

Being childish, but English is the language of this forum!


----------



## AlexNL

That information is slightly outdated, the Beneluxtrein is still routed via Roosendaal. The ambition is to have it running via Breda with the april 2018 timetable update, but we've heard that before...


----------



## Losbp

NS installed this quite cool information board guiding people to board the trains in Schipol Airport Station.

NS personnel will always be in the platfoms guiding confused tourist trying to get the trains to Amsterdam


----------



## mistertl

Losbp said:


> NS installed this quite cool information board guiding people to board the trains in Schipol Airport Station.
> 
> NS personnel will always be in the platfoms guiding confused tourist trying to get the trains to Amsterdam


Unfortunately, there are still a lot of train drivers who doesn't stop at the right place.


----------



## MrAronymous

They're still getting used to it.

From what I've seen it doesn't really work yet. The classes aren't displayed on there yet. There's no mention of lining up next to the doors. No corresponding anouncements. The whole platform is still clogged with tourists and their luggage on the northern side, blocking people from exiting quickly, slowing the boarding process as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

Subway Schiphol - IJbrug, please  That will alleviate the issues at Schiphol railway station.


----------



## Sixhaven

NS is obligated by the Dutch railway concession to go to Brussels via the high-speed line. NS has no choice. Don't blame NS, blame the Dutch government.


----------



## Slagathor

The government is at fault for turning the IC to Vlissingen into a horse-drawn carriage then?


----------



## da_scotty

> Note also that the travel time between Amsterdam and Vlissingen has gained more than 30 minutes since the 1970s. The IC to Zeeland has become incredibly slow.
> 
> NS hates Zeeland.


No the province is, for demanding that all the local stops should have service while somse stations should really be closed in Zeeland. 
You had one fast train and one local train, the fast train was turned in to a 2nd local because the province wanted to keep every little station open on the line, even the really close ones. NS said fine, if you want to stick to those stations we are obligated to serve them 2x hour. But demand on that line is so low that a combined IC/Local service (3/4 times/hr) is just not warrented and a waste of money. So NS rightly said: keep the stations, but the IC will defacto become a local train.

I do disagree that Roosendaal/Bergen op Zoom got *****'ed . They still have a local service which doesn't take that much longer to reach Antwerp. Secondly, how big is the demand really, Zeeland is not very populated. If a second local service (or the IC service which stops at Essen) from antwerp could continue too Roosendaal, much of the time loss would be gone for that part of country. But don't make it like hundreds of passengers at Roosendaal will have a terrible long journey it's a few daily passengers. Could the service be better, ofcourse, but it's not the end of the world like you picture.


----------



## Suburbanist

A solution might be to extend the IC Zwolle-Roosendaal to Vlissingen, calling only at Bergen-op-Zoom and Goes.

An even better solution would be a Vlissingen-Rotterdam railway, over the estuary :cheers: They could use it to expand the southern reaches of the Randstad and build new towns in the relatively empty islands :cheers:


----------



## Wilhem275

da_scotty said:


> ...NS said fine, if you want to stick to those stations we are obligated to serve them 2x hour...


Does the line have enough capacity for both an IC and a local every 30'?

(still demand would be a problem)


----------



## da_scotty

No no and No..

1) the problem is not that they can't place an IC there, it's just not worth it for the passenger demand, they have a few direct IC-peak services now, that should do. But off peak / weekend the demand is really not there. Why waste money then to extend a very long / complicated IC line just for the sake of adding a IC train.

2) Vlissingen-Rotterdam, why, it would double the existing railway, splitting demand. It would cost a lot, and I mean a lot of money crossing all the rivers/estuaries. Secondly there are hardly any medium (let alone large) population centres. Hellevoetsluis & Spijkenisse are the only two, and one is and one would be better of served with the Rotterdam Metro system.

3) I know you have a fettish for sprawling subarbanism (hence the name), but let's keep the empty places empty shall we. There is really no need for new-towns, let alone there. (and lets not have that argument again, we'll never agree).



> Does the line have enough capacity for both an IC and a local every 30'?


I don't know power supply whise.. and how that would work out in Roosendaal, but I'd say capacity wise not a problem. The line is fully double tracked and Vlissingen has extra platforms. Roosendaal lost a few trains and the extra peak services fit in as well, so probably it could be done without major work. The problem is just that the demand isn't there. Outside peak times the VIRM stock used is really empty.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think Vlissingen used to be an important ferry terminal for trucks on the UK-mainland route before the Eurotunnel came online in 1992, right?


----------



## Slagathor

Correct. The Vlissingen ferry to Sheerness was discontinued in 1994. It was an interesting connection in that it didn't go to the usual suspects Dover or Harwich.

*@da_scotty*

I agree that the provincial government took the wrong decision back then. Stations like Arnemuiden and Krabbendijke should have been closed; the demand simply isn't there.

However, NS relegated the IC to a sneltrein in the Randstad as well, which hardly helps. 

From Roosendaal, the stops used to be:

Dordrecht - Rotterdam CS - Den Haag HS - Leiden - Schiphol - Amsterdam CS​
Now, it's:

Dordrecht - Rotterdam Blaak - Rotterdam CS - Schiedam C - Delft - Den Haag HS - Den Haag Laan van NOI - Leiden - Heemstede - Haarlem - Amsterdam Sloterdijk - Amsterdam CS​
That's adding insult to injury. 

Zeeland is a dead end, I accept that. And Breda (and, by extension, Tilburg and Eindhoven) is much more important for the connection to Antwerp than Roosendaal or Zeeland. I don't argue with any of that.

But even though it's a dead end, I think there is room for improvement. I would suggest:

1) Close Arnemuiden, Kruiningen-Yerseke, Krabbendijke and Rilland-Bath. The data is pretty clear on those stations, their time is past:



Code:


[URL="https://www.treinreiziger.nl/aantal-en-uitstappers-per-station-2013-2016/"]Number of daily passengers in 2016 per station in Zeeland[/URL]
2.939  Vlissingen
  958  Vlissingen Souburg
4.657  Middelburg
  467  Arnemuiden
7.197  Goes
1.225  Kapelle-Biezelinge
  826  Kruiningen-Yerseke
  603  Krabbendijke
  486  Rilland-Bath
6.963  Bergen op Zoom

(Vlissingen Souburg is an odd one out, given that it lies closer to the actual built-up area of the town than Vlissingen proper, which sits in the ferry port).

2) Zeeland could become the dead-end line for 2 ICs: one from Amsterdam (once every hour) and one from Zwolle (once every hour, currently terminates in Roosendaal). This gives the province a direct connection to Breda, making Antwerp slightly easier to reach again.

3) Let the IC to Amsterdam run as an actual intercity train in the Randstad like it used to. It can stop in Haarlem instead of Schiphol, that's fine, but don't let it stop 6 times in the Rotterdam-The Hague area alone. That's absurd.


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> 3) Let the IC to Amsterdam run as an actual intercity train in the Randstad like it used to. It can stop in Haarlem instead of Schiphol, that's fine, but don't let it stop 6 times in the Rotterdam-The Hague area alone. That's absurd.


It is better instead to extend the IC Direct trains that currently end in Rotterdam to Zeeland, instead. Or maybe send one per hour of the IC Directs to Zeeland and one per hour of the IC Zwolle...


----------



## Slagathor

I'm not sure they have the rolling stock for it while they're still waiting on the ICNG...


----------



## Suburbanist

In any case, is a change of trains in Rotterdam Centraal that bad for Zeeland-bound travelers?


----------



## Slagathor

Not in principle, but it's currently a very poor transfer with an 18 minute wait. The situation is so preposterous that a journey via 's-Hertogenbosch is considered an alternative on the NS website.

For a journey from Vlissingen to Amsterdam CS, it gives you:

1) Direct IC which takes 3:03
2) Transfer to IC Direct in Rotterdam which takes 2:45
3) Transfer to IC Zwolle in Roosendaal, then to IC Amsterdam in 's-Hertogenbosch, which takes 2:57

So going from Vlissingen to Amsterdam is faster with 2 transfers via 's-Hertogenbosch than with the direct IC. That's absurd.


----------



## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> Not in principle, but it's currently a very poor transfer with an 18 minute wait.


This is strange because there are 4 trains per hour between R'dam C. and Amsterdam C. via HSL . These trains are times for quick transfers for IC Den Haag - Eindhoven. I understand they might not want to dispatch two IC trains after each other to Delft, so maybe the solution is to speed up the connection from Bergen op Zoom to R'dam Centraal and have people transfer from there instead (to Den Haag on IC Eindhoven and to Amsterdam on IC Direct).


----------



## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Slagathor said:


> 1) Close Arnemuiden, Kruiningen-Yerseke, Krabbendijke and Rilland-Bath. The data is pretty clear on those stations, their time is past:


600-800 passengers a day is a reason to close the station? I bet in the Netherlands there are many stops with way less passengers that are still there and nobody wants to close them.

If you count 20 trains a day it is 40 passengers per train - is it not enough?


----------



## da_scotty

20 trains? Make that 36 (x2 each direction) .

Arnemuiden had 467 in 2016. Thats 487/72 = 7 per train, of which a lot will only be at peaktime. Add to that the station is less then 4km from Middelburg. Rilland-Bath is very small as well.

Kruiningen Yerseke is in the middle of nowhere, could be better served with a bus from Kapelle.


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## Slagathor

Kruiningen-Yerseke was a logical IC stop back in the 1990s when there was still a ferry connection to Perkpolder. But the ferry disappeared when the Western Scheldt tunnel opened in 2003 and since that it's been sharpy downhill for that station.


----------



## Slagathor

Grzegorz.Janoszka said:


> 600-800 passengers a day is a reason to close the station? I bet in the Netherlands there are many stops with way less passengers that are still there and nobody wants to close them.
> 
> If you count 20 trains a day it is 40 passengers per train - is it not enough?


These are all the stations with fewer than 1.000 daily passengers in 2016:

The ones in *bold* are in Zeeland.
The ones in black are not in Zeeland, but serviced by a dead-end IC in the same fashion.
The ones in red have been closed in the meantime.
The ones in green are exclusively serviced by NS stopper trains.
The ones in orange are exclusively serviced by stopper trains not operated by NS.



Code:


161	Eijsden (unusual border station, has been closed periodically in the past)
201	Soest
205	Hoensbroek
240	Spaubeek
259	Schinnen
467	[B]Arnemuiden[/B]
486	Nuth
486	Oosterbeek
486	[B]Rilland-Bath[/B]
487	Hoek van Holland Strand
559	Wolfheze
603	[B]Krabbendijke[/B]
629	Geleen Oost
709	Heino
728	Akkrum
764	Soestdijk
773	Bovenkarspel Flora
807	Rheden
826	[B]Kruiningen-Yerseke[/B]
838	Bunde
840	Susteren
859	Hollandsche Rading
891	Santpoort Zuid
893	Waddinxveen Noord
904	Utrecht Leidsche Rijn
936	Santpoort Noord
940	Lage Zwaluwe
948	Grou-Jirnsum
953	Nijmegen Goffert
958	[B]Vlissingen Souburg[/B]

So you can see the Zeeland stations are outliers; Ordinarily stations with so few passengers are only serviced by stopper trains. Most of them are also situated on much busier and more central railway lines than the line in Zeeland, meaning that the stopper trains in question offer short and fast connections to the IC network nearby (which is not the case in Zeeland).


----------



## Wilhem275

A couple of notes:



Slagathor said:


> Dordrecht - Rotterdam CS - Den Haag HS - *Leiden - Schiphol - Amsterdam CS*
> 
> Now, it's:Dordrecht - Rotterdam Blaak - Rotterdam CS - Schiedam C - Delft - Den Haag HS - Den Haag Laan van NOI - *Leiden - Heemstede - Haarlem - Amsterdam Sloterdijk - Amsterdam CS*​That's adding insult to injury.


I agree in general that extra stops make the connection less interesting.
But I see that in fact between Leiden and Amsterdam CS the travel time is pretty much the same whatever the routing, so I wouldn't look there for the culprit.

Skipping the whole Den Haag/Leiden part would be the game changer.



Slagathor said:


> Not in principle, but it's currently a very poor transfer with an *18 minute wait*.


That would be a happy case! The perfect transfer to the next IC Direct would be in 3'.

Too bad it's 12', so the IC Direct departs right before the arrival of the Vlissingen stoptrain :troll:

MAYBE, with 4-tracking between HS and Delft Zuid complete, it will be easier to disjoin the timetables of the Oude Lijn and the HSL and thus shifting the two services towards a better connection in Rotterdam.

At the moment I think it's not possible, because the sort-of-IC Direct Den Haag - Eindhoven locks the two timetables together.


I guess that pursuing a good connection in Rotterdam is the best case for Zeeland, because it probably lacks the demand for a dedicated faster train.

But if such service could be sustainable, then the best solution would be to route it on the HSL with a new junction in Lage Zwaluve (quite cheap to build, honestly).


See also how the newly "fake fast train"  from Zeeland in the morning already shaved off a good 15'.

Btw, why there's a 7' stop in Roosendaal, to begin with?


----------



## Slagathor

^^ To be honest, after reading all that, they might even consider giving NS the boot and letting Arriva run something from Vlissingen to Breda at 30 minute intervals. That way, you could have a local service that could flexibly connect to the rest of the nation's network in both Roosendaal and Breda.

Maybe running a train from Vlissingen all the way to Amsterdam is just no longer a feasible option.

The key would then be to establish which stations to keep servicing and which to close, as well as figuring out how to achieve the best transfers in Roosendaal and Breda. Since we're dealing with a dead-end line, that shouldn't be too difficult.

NB. The long stop in Roosendaal is because of freight traffic. icard:


----------



## ErwinFCG

Slagathor said:


> These are all the stations with fewer than 1.000 daily passengers in 2016:


To clarify, these are only NS data. As far as I know the other operators don't provide their data, but I am pretty sure many of the stations on the Arriva lines also have fewer than 1,000 passengers per day.

Take for example the Zwolle-Emmen line. The latest data is from 2008, when Gramsbergen station had 244 passengers per day, Dalen station 253 per day, and Nieuw Amsterdam station 475 per day. In 2012, Arriva took over from NS here, and Arriva doesn't have this rule of 2 trains per hour at every station (apparently). So now there are 2 trains per hour, of which one stops at each station and one skips Gramsbergen and Dalen.



Slagathor said:


> To be honest, after reading all that, they might even consider giving NS the boot and letting Arriva run something from Vlissingen to Breda at 30 minute intervals.


Then maybe even a similar pattern as between Zwolle and Emmen is possible, with 1 hourly 'stoptrein' (keeping the small stations open) and 1 hourly 'sneltrein'.

Also, I don't know if this is a general pattern, but in Groningen/Friesland the passenger numbers have risen significantly after Arriva took over from NS. In the 90s there were 2 'stoptreinen' per hour between Groningen and Leeuwarden. When NoordNed (50/50 NS/Arriva) took over in 1998 a 'sneltrein' was added in the rush hours, and when Arriva fully took over in 2005 this 'sneltrein' was no longer in rush hours only, but the entire day on weekdays. Nowadays the 'sneltrein' also runs in weekends, and by 2020 a second hourly 'sneltrein' will be added.


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## Slagathor

Awesome, I didn't know that. That's pretty good then!


----------



## Sixhaven

Suburbanist said:


> Exactly. Other often ignored featured is that anonymous OV-Chipkaarts can be linked to an OV-Chipkaart account that already has one nominal card attached to it.


I don't understand what you mean.

Sent from my MotoG3 using SkyscraperCity Forums mobile app


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## MrAronymous

On OV-chipkaart.nl you can make an account with an personal card. You can then (apparantly) add an anonymous one to that account.


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## Sixhaven

You can also make an account on ov-chipkaart.nl with only an anonymous card. You don't need a personal card to make an account there. That would be absurd.

Sent from my MotoG3 using SkyscraperCity Forums mobile app


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## ADCS

Attus said:


> Hello,
> I'd like to get an OV Chipcard. I am neither a Dutch citizen nor have I residence in the Netherlands. I can't speak Dutch.


NS agents all speak English at a high level, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Theijs

Attus said:


> Hello,
> I'd like to get an OV Chipcard. I am neither a Dutch citizen nor have I residence in the Netherlands. I can't speak Dutch.


The vending machines and OV-chipkaart.nl have a menu in English available.


----------



## The Polwoman

ADCS said:


> NS agents all speak English at a high level, if I remember correctly.


Comparitively, it's true. At least, their vocabulary is wide and with a clear pronunciation for foreigners, although it always contains a rather significant accent.

They are quite helpful to foreigners, whether it is a cousin from Indonesia who doesn't know yet how to check in with the chip card, or a drunken man from Poland who needs to go to my hometown but seems to have lost contact with reality that afternoon :nuts:. They guided him the way, but not in a negative light, rather smooth.

This is different from Germany. There they refrain from their small vocabulary of English and both would be fined with fines that have a ridiculous magnitude compared to the maximum cost you can make on the specific network.


----------



## radamfi

I've managed to get a personal OV-Chipkaart even though I live in the UK, following advice on another forum. This method would probably work for most people in the world. So I can now use automatic top-up and OV-Fiets just like a Netherlands resident.

First of all, I got a bank account with Bunq in order to get iDEAL. iDEAL is necessary for some ticket offers, automatic top-up and for OV-Fiets. You don't need to live in the Netherlands to get this bank account and you prove your identity over a video call. They even posted a Maestro card to my home in the UK but I have deactivated that because it costs €8 a month. It is free if you just need iDEAL.

Then I ordered an OV-Chipkaart from https://www.ov-chipkaart.nl. They only deliver to NL, BE, DE and LU so I used a mail forwarding service in Germany and got the card sent to

https://www.mailboxde.com/

who forwarded it on to my home in the UK.

The card took 13 days to reach Germany, then another 5 days to reach the UK.



MrAronymous said:


> On OV-chipkaart.nl you can make an account with an personal card. You can then (apparantly) add an anonymous one to that account.


What is the advantage of having an anonymous card and personal card on the same account? I've now got both types of card and I can see both cards at the same time in the website. Is there any other benefit?


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## Slagathor

That's some first class scheming, well done.


----------



## Sixhaven

It's funny, because I thought of exactly this scheme with a free Bunq account as a work-around last week. I even made my German girlfriend get a Bunq bank account to see if it works. Good to hear that it does work indeed.

Bunq is only available to customers in the EEA. Anyone who spends more than a month in the Netherlands and is resident in one of the EEA countries should get a free Bunq account to escape the horror of iDEAL-only payments in the Netherlands.

I also got myself a free German bank account with N26, which to my mind offers a better deal than Bunq. The MasterCard you get with N26 is free, but what's even better is that all fees for paying in foreign currencies are waived, and that exhange rates are calculated at mid-market rate through TransferWise. No Dutch bank offers anything remotely comparable, and apart from Bunq, no Dutch bank account is free of charge. Long live the European Union.


----------



## Sixhaven

@radamfi: actually in your particular scheme, it's not entirely necessary to sign up for Bunq. You can order the OV-chipkaart to your German mail forwarding address and pay via PayPal, apply for automatic reloading using the form "Apply for automatic reloading with international IBAN" on the forms and downloads section of the ov-chipkaart website and call the NS customer service to apply for an OV-Fiets subscription without using iDEAL. But I agree that the Bunq workaround is easier. And if you order a season ticket with NS through their website with iDEAL, you'll get an OV-chipkaart for free. If you don't have iDEAL, you'll end up spending an extra € 7,50.


----------



## Suburbanist

iDeal is necessary to buy the very-good-value ticket deals on Spoordelwinkel NS promotion website.


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## Wilhem275

I don't understand the existence of these national, incompatible money circuits.


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## Slagathor

Are you suggesting we wait for the Italians and the Greeks to figure out electronic payments before we advance? Cause I'm sorry but you guys are too slow. The Germans as well with their cash fetish.


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## radamfi

Does any country other than the Netherlands have a special payment system for online shopping? Presumably it is necessary because Dutch Maestro cards don't have card numbers. If so, why don't Dutch Maestro cards have card numbers?


----------



## radamfi

Sixhaven said:


> I also got myself a free German bank account with N26, which to my mind offers a better deal than Bunq. The MasterCard you get with N26 is free, but what's even better is that all fees for paying in foreign currencies are waived, and that exhange rates are calculated at mid-market rate through TransferWise. No Dutch bank offers anything remotely comparable, and apart from Bunq, no Dutch bank account is free of charge. Long live the European Union.


I would like a N26 account for the free Maestro card but they won't accept the mailboxde.com address and they won't post to the UK. I have a Revolut bank account which does mid-market rate transfers between currencies, which I use to convert GBP to EUR then transfer to Bunq.


----------



## Slagathor

radamfi said:


> Does any country other than the Netherlands have a special payment system for online shopping? Presumably it is necessary because Dutch Maestro cards don't have card numbers. If so, why don't Dutch Maestro cards have card numbers?


I think it's a cultural thing: Dutch people resent debts, credit cards and interest payments. They wanna know exactly how much money they have at any given time, and be able to instantly transfer money from their normal checking account when they buy something online. So the banking apps and iDeal meet a cultural demand.


----------



## radamfi

Slagathor said:


> I think it's a cultural thing: Dutch people resent debts, credit cards and interest payments. They wanna know exactly how much money they have at any given time, and be able to instantly transfer money from their normal checking account when they buy something online. So the banking apps and iDeal meet a cultural demand.


But it is possible to pay online using debit cards in other countries as well, and the money comes directly out of the bank account. If there is not enough money in the account, the transaction is declined, unless the checking account (=current account in British English) has an overdraft facility. Debit cards in other countries can be used online because they have a 16 digit card number just like credit cards.

NS always refer to Visa/MasterCard as "creditcards" which is a bit confusing for foreigners as Visa and MasterCard offer both debit and credit cards.


----------



## Sixhaven

In Germany SOFORT/Klarna is very popular, and it works similar to iDEAL. SOFORT is available in several European countries though. iDEAL is only for Dutch banks and a big nuisance for all people without a Dutch bank account.

Many Dutch people don't own a credit card or prefer to pay with iDEAL just out of habit. When Air Berlin went bankrupt last year, all Dutchies who paid with iDEAL lost the money they paid for their ticket, while many who paid by credit card got reimbursed by the credit card company.

The hesitation of many Dutch towards using a credit card makes little sense.


----------



## Sixhaven

radamfi said:


> NS always refer to Visa/MasterCard as "creditcards" which is a bit confusing for foreigners as Visa and MasterCard offer both debit and credit cards.


NS did this because before 1 January 2018, you had to pay an extra fee of € 0,50 if you wanted to pay with MasterCard or Visa. In Summer 2017 they changed the buttons to "Pin card" and "Other card," which is only slightly less confusing. But now the extra fee is waived. There is only one button for all cards and another button for coins.


----------



## Sixhaven

Wilhem275 said:


> I don't understand the existence of these national, incompatible money circuits.


Exactly. Dutch people are very good at proudly boasting what an internationally oriented trading people they are, but when it comes to these things, it seems hard for them to grasp the concept of a European single market. In which other European country is paying with a credit card in a supermarket next to impossible?

In some aspects, Germany is worse for their Girocard-only terminals. But at least you can pay by credit card at REWE.


----------



## radamfi

I have some sympathy with the Dutch system as presumably the transaction costs of iDEAL and Maestro are very low. Whereas shops have to pay Visa and MasterCard transaction fees and that cost would then be passed on to the consumer.



Sixhaven said:


> In which other European country is paying with a credit card in a supermarket next to impossible?


Albert Heijn in Gent didn't accept my MasterCard when I was there last year.  But maybe that's an anomaly because if is of course mostly a Dutch chain. Maybe all other Belgian supermarkets accept credit cards?

For a long time, Lidl didn't accept credit cards in the UK but that changed about 2-3 years ago.


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## Sixhaven

I also like the Dutch system for the high acceptance rate of Maestro and V Pay, which is indeed a lot cheaper for small-scale entrepreneurs than accepting credit card. In Germany and Belgium these kind of shops only accept cash or in the case of Germany only cash and Girocard (in Belgium also some shops only accept cash and Bancontact). A big chain supermarket like Albert Heijn should accept credit cards in my opinion. The fees are not gonna hurt them.


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## Suburbanist

This is wildly off-topic, but with instantaneous payments within SEPA through bank transfers (which many Dutch banks already allow), and MIFID-2 liberalization of bank transaction systems, it is only a matter of time until a credible startup takes advantage of both and creates an app-based payment system with (near) instant confirmation, using the inter-bank SEPA system protocols (the same used by you to transfer money from one bank account to another within SEPA - Standard European Payment Area) and bypassing the 'networks' of Maestro and Visapay altogether.

This would force these payment processor networks, which are hugely profitable and still operate under arcane time-schedules, to compete for real, slashing their merchant fees.


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## radamfi

This is amusing

https://www.creditcard.nl/nieuws/betalen-treinkaartje-met-creditcard-populair

It says online train tickets purchase by credit card is "enormously popular", even though just 7% of transactions are by credit card.


----------



## radamfi

Another option for visitors is 

http://www.tripkey.nl/

Notably, it allows you to use OV-Fiets, normally only available to personal OV-Chipkaart holders. But it looks like they have had complaints and is not currently available for new users:

http://www.tripkey.nl/registration-for-tripkey-cards-temporarily-closed/

There is also this site, selling personal OV-Chipkaart for €19.95

http://www.public-transport-holland.com/product/ordering-personal-ov-chipcard/

But is this site legitimate? There is no address or company name that I can see.


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## Slagathor

There's no address and I didn't find any Chamber of Commerce registration so I would be extreeeemly wary about giving any money to that website.

Tripkey, on the other hand, has a CoC registration and appears to be a valid enterprise.


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## Attus

Thank you guys, I have my OV Chipkaart  
The lady at the counters was nice and helpful and spoke decent English.


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## Surel

Sixhaven said:


> I also like the Dutch system for the high acceptance rate of Maestro and V Pay, which is indeed a lot cheaper for small-scale entrepreneurs than accepting credit card. In Germany and Belgium these kind of shops only accept cash or in the case of Germany only cash and Girocard (in Belgium also some shops only accept cash and Bancontact). A big chain supermarket like Albert Heijn should accept credit cards in my opinion. The fees are not gonna hurt them.


Albert Heijn and other chains also don't accept embossed debit cards (no credit card, just a bank account card). They simply don't like Master Card and Visa .


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## MarcVD

Sixhaven said:


> In Germany and Belgium these kind of shops only accept cash or in the case of Germany only cash and Girocard (in Belgium also some shops only accept cash and Bancontact). A big chain supermarket like Albert Heijn should accept credit cards in my opinion. The fees are not gonna hurt them.


I really don't understand where you get this idea from.
Almost 100% of the shops in Belgium accept electronic payments. Even if 90% of the payments are done with the "Bancontact/MisterCash" national scheme, international credit and debit cards are also widely accepted. Belgium is probably the country which issues the highest number of electronic payments per capita (roughly 2 billions per year). I haven't paid purchases in cash in a supermarket for years...


----------



## Sixhaven

I didn't mean to write that Belgian shops don't accept electronic payments. I meant to say that many small shops only accept Bancontact/MisterCash and cash, like many small shops in Germany only accept Girocard and cash.

You probably don't realize this, because you own a card with Bancontact yourself. But the fact of the matter is that the planned shutdown of Bancontact was postponed because many small retailers feared higher prices:

https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/be3994b5c54a75

In bars and cafés in Belgium often no cards are accepted, only cash (presumably because these bars don’t want to pay taxes). I had to rush to an ATM as recent as last year in Belgium, because a bar didn’t take any card.


----------



## MarcVD

Sixhaven said:


> I didn't mean to write that Belgian shops don't accept electronic payments. I meant to say that many small shops only accept Bancontact/MisterCash and cash, like many small shops in Germany only accept Girocard and cash.
> 
> You probably don't realize this, because you own a card with Bancontact yourself. But the fact of the matter is that the planned shutdown of Bancontact was postponed because many small retailers feared higher prices:
> 
> https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/be3994b5c54a75
> 
> In bars and cafés in Belgium often no cards are accepted, only cash (presumably because these bars don’t want to pay taxes). I had to rush to an ATM as recent as last year in Belgium, because a bar didn’t take any card.


Bancontact will not be shut down. It has been made SEPA compliant and entirely renewed (it's my job).

There are indeed some specific sectors with low plastic money acceptance. Cafés and bars indeed, but also hairdressers, and physiciens. All places where it is easy to conceal parts of the revenue...


----------



## radamfi

Albert Heijn To Go at Breda and Eindhoven stations accepted my Mastercard today at the self-service tills.

I got the Den Haag to Eindhoven train and it arrived in Eindhoven 3 minutes late. The conductor said she had tried to contact the connecting train to Venlo but said she got no confirmation that it would wait and it didn't wait even though. Is the train to Venlo supposed to be a connection? If so, why would the conductor need to contact the Venlo train? Surely they already know how late the train from Den Haag is?


----------



## M-NL

Years ago when there still was one big Dutch Railways, the driver (no direct communication for the conductor existed) passed his request to the local signalling post, which in turn forwarded it to the connecting train. 
Nowadays the driver or conductor has to pass a request to the nationwide NS coordination center, which has to coordinate with the nationwide signalling coordination center, which has to coordinate with the regional signalling center, after which the approved or denied request has to travel the same path back to all trains involved. This process usually takes so much time that the connection is already lost. Thus most personnel don't even bother anymore.


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## mistertl

Nope. I simply give a call to the signaller, and he/she will check if it's possible for the other train to wait a few minutes.


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## M-NL

Interesting, because I didn't make that up myself, but just repeated the procedure as it was described to me by three people (two from NS, one Prorail) at different occasions.


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## Wilhem275

In a highly repetitive system like the Dutch network, these things should be sorted out automatically.

There should be a list of planned connections and a maximum time a connecting train can be waited for.
Expected delays are known in real time for any given train, so you can already know with large advance if the connection can be saved or not.

I mean, if I can do all this from the NS app, 900 km away...


----------



## mistertl

Wilhem275 said:


> In a highly repetitive system like the Dutch network, these things should be sorted out automatically.
> 
> There should be a list of planned connections and a maximum time a connecting train can be waited for.
> Expected delays are known in real time for any given train, so you can already know with large advance if the connection can be saved or not.
> 
> I mean, if I can do all this from the NS app, 900 km away...


There are so-called "TreinAfhandelingsDocumenten" or TAD for short. They specify a few things like: in case of a delay, how long can a train wait for the connection. Or a different question: when does a train get priority over another train, or is that priority lost after a few minutes delay.
So, when I call to the signaller, he/she will check if the train is covered in those documents and will decide whether it can wait or not.
In some cases, only the last connections of the day are specified, or in other occasions only on one day of the week, for example on Sunday, when there is an hourly schedule on many more rural lines.
The signaller is responsible for maintaining those connections. Unfortunately, when there is any disruption going on, the signaller will be usually too busy to notice.
So essentially I only place a wake-up call for the signaller.
Above is the regular scenario.

Then we also have the scenario that a connection is not covered by those TADs, but when the train staff thinks the connection should be held. For example, when it's the last connection of the day and the delay is quite severe and more than is specified in the TADs.
It is only in that case that it gets a bit more complicated, but it's still pretty straightforward.
In this scenario, I'll give our control room a call and they will decide about the connection. The question they will ask is: how many people are there for that connection on board of the delayed train? When it's only one or two people, they will usually opt for a taxi.
When there are quite a lot of people for the connecting train, they will give a call to the DVL (decentrale verkeersleider, the person that does all the planning in the signal box) to see if it's possible to let the train wait. Especially for the last trains, it's not always possible due to planned maintenance.
When the DVL gives the OK, the NS control room will inform the train crews.

In my own experience, even this last procedure is a matter of minutes. The last time I used it, I was driving the last IC service service from Utrecht to Eindhoven, with 12 VIRM coaches. Even with 12 coaches, the train was fully packed. We were delayed by approximately 20 minutes, because someone on board needed medical attention.
Quite a few people needed to get to one of the stations between Den Bosch and Eindhoven, where we didn't call, but we were scheduled to have a connection with the last all-station service of the day from Den Bosch to Eindhoven.
Due to the delay, that connection would be lost.
I called the control room, they agreed with me, and I got a phone call a few minutes later that the connecting train would be held at Den Bosch, even though it would have to wait for 20 minutes.


----------



## radamfi

How long does it take for money to come out of your bank account after you use OV-Fiets or automatic top-up?


----------



## mistertl

The money for an OV Fiets is billed monthly and will be directly taken from your bank account in the first half of each month. It is not deducted from the money on the OV Chipkaart. 
When you use the auto-top-up for your OV Chipkaart and your balance gets below the minimum required amount, it will usually be taken from your bank account, a few days after the top-up.


----------



## Dijklex

mistertl said:


> There are so-called "TreinAfhandelingsDocumenten" or TAD for short. They specify a few things like: in case of a delay, how long can a train wait for the connection. Or a different question: when does a train get priority over another train, or is that priority lost after a few minutes delay.
> So, when I call to the signaller, he/she will check if the train is covered in those documents and will decide whether it can wait or not.
> In some cases, only the last connections of the day are specified, or in other occasions only on one day of the week, for example on Sunday, when there is an hourly schedule on many more rural lines.
> The signaller is responsible for maintaining those connections. Unfortunately, when there is any disruption going on, the signaller will be usually too busy to notice.
> So essentially I only place a wake-up call for the signaller.
> Above is the regular scenario.
> 
> Then we also have the scenario that a connection is not covered by those TADs, but when the train staff thinks the connection should be held. For example, when it's the last connection of the day and the delay is quite severe and more than is specified in the TADs.
> It is only in that case that it gets a bit more complicated, but it's still pretty straightforward.
> In this scenario, I'll give our control room a call and they will decide about the connection. The question they will ask is: how many people are there for that connection on board of the delayed train? When it's only one or two people, they will usually opt for a taxi.
> When there are quite a lot of people for the connecting train, they will give a call to the DVL (decentrale verkeersleider, the person that does all the planning in the signal box) to see if it's possible to let the train wait. Especially for the last trains, it's not always possible due to planned maintenance.
> When the DVL gives the OK, the NS control room will inform the train crews.
> 
> In my own experience, even this last procedure is a matter of minutes. The last time I used it, I was driving the last IC service service from Utrecht to Eindhoven, with 12 VIRM coaches. Even with 12 coaches, the train was fully packed. We were delayed by approximately 20 minutes, because someone on board needed medical attention.
> Quite a few people needed to get to one of the stations between Den Bosch and Eindhoven, where we didn't call, but we were scheduled to have a connection with the last all-station service of the day from Den Bosch to Eindhoven.
> Due to the delay, that connection would be lost.
> I called the control room, they agreed with me, and I got a phone call a few minutes later that the connecting train would be held at Den Bosch, even though it would have to wait for 20 minutes.


As a ProRail Signaller I second this! Very accurate description. The TAD's don't cover every situation. But a bit of good will and a few quick calls will usually do the trick.


----------



## Slagathor

hybridace101 said:


> Hello! I may be new to this forum so apologies if I post my question in the incorrect one. I am interested in knowing more about the NS railway system, especially ticketing.
> 
> First, when the strippenkaart was still in place, did it cost the same to use NS (instead of GVB to) to travel between two points in Amsterdam served by both companies?


Too hard to tell. NS didn't accept the strippenkaart so you'd have to compare NS ticket prices to strippenkaart rates, which varied over the years as the prices were adjusted.



> Second, if one has an OVB-chipkaart, can one purchase a one-way or return ticket online and load it up to the card to avoid the €20 deposit required to enter the system, especially if the journey is short?


If you want to avoid having to buy a chipkaart and put enough money on it for the deposit, you should just buy a disposable single-use chipkaart at a ticket machine. Those cost an extra 1 euro that's added to the fare.



> Finally, can a passenger with a single-use chipkaart (e.g. from Rotterdam to Amsterdam) break the journey in-between (e.g. Den Haag HS) and continue the journey with that same card?


That's not technically allowed so if you're unlucky, the ticket inspector would notice the time you checked in at Amsterdam and do the math. You'd then have to buy a new ticket with the inspector which carries a 35 euro penalty.


----------



## mistertl

Slagathor said:


> Too hard to tell. NS didn't accept the strippenkaart so you'd have to compare NS ticket prices to strippenkaart rates, which varied over the years as the prices were adjusted.


Actually, on a few lines the Strippenkaart was accepted. There were stamp machines on the stations that could be used to stamp it. The inspector only checked if one had stamped the correct amount.

The penalty is 50 euro btw, but a break of journey is allowed at every station.

The easiest thing to do is to buy a ticket online at ns.nl, and load it into the NS Reisplanner Xtra app on your smartphone (available for android and ios). You can pay by credit card.


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## hybridace101

^^
But does the NS app accept credit cards issued outside the Netherlands?


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## mistertl

Yes, they do. Mastercard/VISA/AMEX cards are accepted.


----------



## Sixhaven

Slagathor said:


> That's not technically allowed so if you're unlucky, the ticket inspector would notice the time you checked in at Amsterdam and do the math. You'd then have to buy a new ticket with the inspector which carries a 35 euro penalty.


It is allowed. With a single journey Rotterdam-Amsterdam on a disposable OV-chipkaart (or on an e-ticket) you can get off at any station on the route between Rotterdam and Amsterdam and stay there as long as you like. You only have to complete your journey before 4 AM the next day.


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## Sixhaven

Using a Strippenkaart on the trains was especially handy when you had to change from metro/tram/bus to train in the big cities. Nowadays you end up paying the boarding fare again, because tariffs are not integrated between bus/tram/metro and trains in the Netherlands.


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## hybridace101

mistertl said:


> Actually, on a few lines the Strippenkaart was accepted. There were stamp machines on the stations that could be used to stamp it. The inspector only checked if one had stamped the correct amount.


Did these lines include the stretch between Schiphol and Amsterdam Centraal, and between Centraal and Amsterdam Zuid?


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## Sixhaven

No, not the stretch between Schiphol and Amsterdam Centraal. There is no direct line between Amsterdam Centraal to Amsterdam Zuid, but you were allowed to travel to Zuid via Duivendrecht with a Strippenkaart (but not via Schiphol).

In the Amsterdam region, the Strippenkaart was valid only in second class and only at train stations in Amsterdam, Diemen and Duivendrecht.


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## hybridace101

Sorry for my persistent questions. I'm planning a trip to Amsterdam in a few months time. Do any of NS' longer-distance trains (e.g. Sneltrein, ex-Fyra/IC Direct, IC Brussel) have power ports to plug laptops and phones?


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## Sixhaven

IC Direct and IC Brussels have power sockets, but only in first class. All the other intercities don't have power sockets.


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## mistertl

All DDZ, ICM, all modernized VIRM and the latest batch of the pre-modernized VIRM trains have power sockets in the first class.
It's only the first three batches of VIRM that doesn't have sockets in the first class.


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## hybridace101

Isn't the DDZ used for stoptrein services? But NS should follow the lead of other countries that tend to provide power outlets for at least medium and long-distance services.


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## Slagathor

There is no long-distance service, it's Holland. It's tiny. 

The new sprinters have both power and USB sockets in all classes. The new ICs will have them as well. We're getting there.


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## mistertl

DDZ has been used for the all station 'sprinter' services in the past, due to a shortage in sprinter trains suitable for those services. After the delivery of the FLIRT sprinters a few years ago, most of the shortages no longer existed and the DDZ was moved to the intercity services.

It's not that easy to fit power sockets in an already existing train. The VIRM and DDZ trains are kind of purpose built for the Dutch Railways. They simply don't have enough spare current available for sockets throughout the train. 
For example: the only reason that it was even possible to install the sockets in first class VIRM with the refurbishment, was that the new HVAC system needed a bit less power and the now available spare power could be used for the sockets.

However, NS also sees the demand for power sockets. For that reason, with the refurbishment of the second and third VIRM series starting in the next few years, the complete electricity network in the trains will be redesigned, only to make it possible to install power sockets in the first and second class.
The other trains (IC Direct/IC Brussels coaches, ICM) are simply too old for it to be viable to have plug sockets in the second class too and will be replaced with new trains in the next few years.

All new trains will of course have power sockets and USB ports in the first and second class. The FLIRT sprinters already have them. 
The new SNG sprinter trains that will enter service by the end of this year have them too, and they will replace the now 40+ years old SGM rolling stock and the few DDAR/DDM1 trains that were left.
The ICNG, the new intercity rolling stock that will replace the 35 years old IC Direct/IC Brussels coaches and the ICM EMUs, also has plug sockets and USB ports.

By the way: about the 'should follow': there already were plug sockets installed in some ICR coaches in the years '94/'95. I don't think that many other operators had those in that time 
But in that time, it was clearly deemed to be a first class perk only for business travellers with the notebook computers becoming more common. When the complete refurbishment of the ICR coaches began in 1997, this was still the case and therefore they are only available in the first class.


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## Wilhem275

If 220V sockets demand too much current to the vehicle network, maybe a compromise could be to just fit 5V 2A USB ports, which in the end is what most travellers want today.

(also much easier in terms of insulation)


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## mistertl

I have no idea why they didn't opt for that one exactly.
I think that the main issue is that the refurbishment of both DDZ and the VIRM1 began almost 10 years ago with the DDZ. They are using the same design principles. I think that, at that time, they simply didn't think of that as it wasn't as common as it is now.
The VIRMm refurbishment plans didn't start much later, even though the first train wasn't refurbished until 2016. As soon as they entered service, the lack of plug sockets and/or USB ports became one of the biggest complaints. That is why the decision was made to change that in the upcoming VIRM2/3 refurbishment. Also many other things will be changed when comparing it to the VIRM1 refurbishment, including the seats.

Maybe there will be some retrofit in the VIRM1 series, but I don't expect that in the DDZ anymore.


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## hybridace101

Wilhem275 said:


> Say hello to ETR 700
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still incomplete, there must be some bright red on the nose. They were also studying how to cover that terrified mouth


Is this an ex-Fyra train?


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## Slagathor

Yes. And the red-and-white tape is now structurally integral. The horse that drags it along is just outside the frame of the photo.


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## hybridace101

mistertl said:


> DDZ has been used for the all station 'sprinter' services in the past, due to a shortage in sprinter trains suitable for those services. After the delivery of the FLIRT sprinters a few years ago, most of the shortages no longer existed and the DDZ was moved to the intercity services.


Interesting. I thought DDZs were classed as stoptreins and those double-deckers with smaller doors are sneltreins. Does this mean that stoptreins are now (almost) exclusively single decker? Do some NS stoptreins have WiFi the way double-decker sneltreins do?

The last time I used NS WiFi, it was quite slow, but that was more than three years ago.


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## mistertl

hybridace101 said:


> What's the longest stoptrein line in the country?


 km or time?
I guess that the sprinter The Hague - Amsterdam Centraal - Zwolle is a good candidate for both, but the sprinter Dordrecht - Den Bosch - Arnhem covers also quite a long distance.


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## AlexNL

Den Bosch - Utrecht - Den Haag is quite a long ride as well.


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## hybridace101

Slightly off-topic. Utrecht appears to be the country's 'central' rail hub yet it's not highly promoted a tourist destination as Amsterdam, the Hague, or even Rotterdam. To those who have been to Utrecht, is it underrated as a destination for those who want to hop on and hop off dutch trains? Is it worth visiting?


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## Suburbanist

hybridace101 said:


> Slightly off-topic. Utrecht appears to be the country's 'central' rail hub yet it's not highly promoted a tourist destination as Amsterdam, the Hague, or even Rotterdam. To those who have been to Utrecht, is it underrated as a destination for those who want to hop on and hop off dutch trains? Is it worth visiting?


Utrecht has is fair share of attractions, the problem is that it's really hard to compete with World class cities like Amsterdam or Rotterdam. The station is nice, they have some canals there too.


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## Momo1435

Utrecht is a very nice city to visit.

For years you had to walk through a 1970's dark shopping center from the central station to go the old town. But right now they are completely rebuilding this complex into a modern light mall. And they are also improving the routes around it so you won't have to pass through this mall to reach the beautiful old city. It got a couple of nice looking canals which are a bit different then the canals in Amsterdam, so they will still be interesting even if you have already visited Amsterdam. There are a lot of churches, as the city has always been one of the religious capitals of the Netherlands. It's a university city, so there are a lot of young people around and has a good night life as well. 

Since this is the railways thread the national railway museum should be mentioned as well. They got a nice collection of old and modern Dutch trains on display.

The location of Utrecht as the central railway hub is also ideal to visit other interesting cities like Leiden, Gouda or 's Hertogenbosch to name just a few.


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## hybridace101

mistertl said:


> km or time?
> I guess that the sprinter The Hague - Amsterdam Centraal - Zwolle is a good candidate for both, but the sprinter Dordrecht - Den Bosch - Arnhem covers also quite a long distance.


Sorry, I meant to ask the longest sneltrein line in terms of distance/miles.


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## da_scotty

Sneltrein?

There are only a handfull of sneltreinen left, non of them by the NS, all of them by Arriva:

3800: Zwolle - Emmen
13800: Zwolle - Coevorden (peak) 
32100: Maastricht - Heerlen 
37300: Leeuwarden - Groningen 

I think the 3800 is the longest at 106 km (give or take).


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## AlexNL

Zwolle - Emmen is 75 km (one way).


The longest intercity route in the Netherlands is Den Helder - Maastricht, at 303 km. This train runs a few times a day.


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## K_

Momo1435 said:


> Since this is the railways thread the national railway museum should be mentioned as well. They got a nice collection of old and modern Dutch trains on display.


I noticed the last time I was in Utrecht that there is a shuttle between Utrecht Centraal and the Railway Museum. What route does this take?


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> I noticed the last time I was in Utrecht that there is a shuttle between Utrecht Centraal and the Railway Museum. What route does this take?


It reverses after the junction with the line from the museum on the Amersfoort railway.

It is a pity they don't rebuild the line there as a full freight bypass of Utrecht Centraal


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## hybridace101

da_scotty said:


> Sneltrein?
> 
> There are only a handfull of sneltreinen left, non of them by the NS, all of them by Arriva:
> 
> 3800: Zwolle - Emmen
> 13800: Zwolle - Coevorden (peak)
> 32100: Maastricht - Heerlen
> 37300: Leeuwarden - Groningen
> 
> I think the 3800 is the longest at 106 km (give or take).


I use the old names. And I meant stoptrein, though I realised someone answered that.


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## da_scotty

What are you asking? Each time you ask A) ... someone answers.. then you say no I want to know B)... so we answer... then you say "no not that again". You did the same when you kept saying something different when you asked about the Rotterdam-Amsterdam HSL.

What do you want to know?

*For now it's this.*
Longest Sprinter/Stoptrein line:
_Dordrecht-Arnhem at 130km+ _
Longest Sneltrein:
_Zwolle-Emmen 75km _
Longest Intercity:
_Maastricht-Den Helder 300km+ 

(in 2016 it was the sunday only/some services only: serie 12600 Vlissingen-Groningen at 380km+)_


FYI train types:
*Old:*
Stoptrein (Local)
Sneltrein )(Semi Fast / Interregional)
Intercity (Fast)
*New: *
Sprinter (Local)
Intercity (Semi Fast, Fast, some via HSL)
Intercity Direct (Fast via HSL, surcharge between Rotterdam-Schiphol),

_some regional operators still use sneltrein/stoptrein_

The term Intercity is very fluid, some are fast, but some stop really often.


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## Wilhem275

Suburbanist said:


> It is a pity they don't rebuild the line there as a full freight bypass of Utrecht Centraal


To bring through the city center what now runs out of it? :nuts:


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## hybridace101

da_scotty said:


> What are you asking? Each time you ask A) ... someone answers.. then you say no I want to know B)... so we answer... then you say "no not that again". You did the same when you kept saying something different when you asked about the Rotterdam-Amsterdam HSL.
> 
> What do you want to know?
> 
> *For now it's this.*
> Longest Sprinter/Stoptrein line:
> _Dordrecht-Arnhem at 130km+ _
> Longest Sneltrein:
> _Zwolle-Emmen 75km _
> Longest Intercity:
> _Maastricht-Den Helder 300km+
> 
> (in 2016 it was the sunday only/some services only: serie 12600 Vlissingen-Groningen at 380km+)_
> 
> 
> FYI train types:
> *Old:*
> Stoptrein (Local)
> Sneltrein )(Semi Fast / Interregional)
> Intercity (Fast)
> *New: *
> Sprinter (Local)
> Intercity (Semi Fast, Fast, some via HSL)
> Intercity Direct (Fast via HSL, surcharge between Rotterdam-Schiphol),
> 
> _some regional operators still use sneltrein/stoptrein_
> 
> The term Intercity is very fluid, some are fast, but some stop really often.


Thanks for this. I agree that IC is a 'fluid' term. To be honest, I personally find both IC and Sneltrein misleading terms to describe the train services they refer to given your characterisation since a) they are not quite fast, and b) they are not as 'intercity' as their counterparts in Germany, France, and the UK.


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## da_scotty

It's still the fastest service between the main cities. There's only a handfull of exception. 

That other countries have faster intercities is nice and good, but the basic principle is still there. The distances don't warrant much higher speeds and the country is way more populated.

In the end, it's only a name.


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## Wilhem275

And, to be honest, even in those countries the IC service is often overlapping with the RE. It just covers longer distances.

It answers its own name: an internal connection between cities.


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## DingeZ

da_scotty said:


> What are you asking? Each time you ask A) ... someone answers.. then you say no I want to know B)... so we answer... then you say "no not that again". You did the same when you kept saying something different when you asked about the Rotterdam-Amsterdam HSL.
> 
> What do you want to know?
> 
> *For now it's this.*
> Longest Sprinter/Stoptrein line:
> _Dordrecht-Arnhem at 130km+ _
> Longest Sneltrein:
> _Zwolle-Emmen 75km _
> Longest Intercity:
> _Maastricht-Den Helder 300km+
> 
> (in 2016 it was the sunday only/some services only: serie 12600 Vlissingen-Groningen at 380km+)_


Actually, on weekend nights there is a late night Rhenen - Den Helder sprinter service, which is 164,7 km. It arrives at Den Helder at 2:35...


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## ADCS

hybridace101 said:


> Slightly off-topic. Utrecht appears to be the country's 'central' rail hub yet it's not highly promoted a tourist destination as Amsterdam, the Hague, or even Rotterdam. To those who have been to Utrecht, is it underrated as a destination for those who want to hop on and hop off dutch trains? Is it worth visiting?


Utrecht is wonderful and has more of the classic Dutch city feel about it than the other major Randstad cities. I'd highly recommend taking a day and getting lost walking about the _grachten_, or finding yourself in a cafe for _biertjes en bitterballen_, or a plate of sweet _poffertjes_.


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## Grzegorz.Janoszka

Slightly offtopic: where can I find a place in the NL where I could safely and legally watch with kids the high-speed trains going 300 km/h or so?


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## Slagathor

Presumably Lage Zwaluwe station..? I don't know how close to the platforms they pass by though.

You'll be hard struck to find a spotting place between Schiphol and Rotterdam because the part where they actually reach 300km/h is in a tunnel. So you'll end up somewhere in Brabant.

EDIT: the parking lot at Lage Zwaluwe could work. The high speed rail tracks pass between the parking lot and the station. The station also has a pedestrian bridge over the tracks but you may need to check in with an OV-Chipkaart in order to access it. I never use the station so I don't know if they've put up any gates recently.


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## Momo1435

The new sprinter trains SNG from CAF in Spain, parked in The Hague until the next testr ride.


IMG_4917 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_4918 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_4921 by Momo1435, on Flickr


----------



## AlexNL

The SNG trains are expected to enter passenger service on November 12 on the Den Haag Centraal - Leiden - Haarlem all stations service. Initially one diagram will be covered by SNG, the rest will remain SGMm.


----------



## Wilhem275

Is there a planned phase out for the SGM?


----------



## AlexNL

I don't have exact dates, but as SNG is intended to replace SGMm I don't think we'll be seeing much SGMm in service anymore once enough SNGs have been delivered.

The SGMm-II trains (2 coach trains) are the first to leave, SGMm-III will follow later. As the oldest trains are more than 40 years old, they'll most likely be sent to the scrapyard.


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## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> As the oldest trains are more than 40 years old, they'll most likely be sent to the scrapyard.


When you maintain them properly especially older model trains (like SGM) could proverbially last forever. But everytime rolling stock gets marked for phase out, all of a sudden reliability takes a hit. 'Because the equipment is getting old!' No, it's not, you're not doing enough maintenance anymore.


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## da_scotty

Then again, SGM isn't quick enough, has no Aircon and the 2-coach sets can't run independent anymore (or at least in autumm/winter). 
So you could maintain them, but I think the Sprinter/Vlaflip's time on the Dutch railways is over. I suppose they will retain one in the S_poorwegmusuem_.


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## da_scotty

NS newest sprinters have entered (testing) service. One coupled train (A EMU-3 and a EMU-4 combined) have started trial services in the The Hague-Haarlem Sprinter.

The train is based on the CAF Civity platform. 



Momo1435 said:


> Het testbedrijf met passagiers van de SNG is gisteren gestart. Ze rijden doordeweeks 1 omloop in de Sprinter Den Haag - Leiden - Haarlem.


----------



## Mr_Dru

3737 said:


> A line up of all the generations of sprinter rolling stock.
> From right to left:
> SGM, SLT, FLIRT and SNG (which will replace the SGM).


Photo from another angle










source:ns.nl


----------



## MrAronymous

#SaveVlaflip


----------



## Suburbanist

It's a pity they gave up on the very large SLT windows on newer trains.


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## da_scotty

It's not so much as giving up, as choosing a different brand of trains.


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## MrAronymous

It's not the bigger windows that's the problem, it's the ugly paint scheme designs NS came up with.


----------



## Theijs

Direct Intercity Eindhoven - Düsseldorf to be introduced by 2025. The journey time would be reduced to 2 hours.

Source: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2018/11/17/directe-trein-eindhoven-–-dusseldorf-onderweg


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## K_

Theijs said:


> Direct Intercity Eindhoven - Düsseldorf to be introduced by 2025. The journey time would be reduced to 2 hours.
> 
> Source: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2018/11/17/directe-trein-eindhoven-–-dusseldorf-onderweg


In rhe other direction this train should be extended to Antwerpen. 
So we get Antwerpen - Breda - Tilburg - Eindhoven - Venlo,- Dusseldorf...


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> In rhe other direction this train should be extended to Antwerpen.
> So we get Antwerpen - Breda - Tilburg - Eindhoven - Venlo,- Dusseldorf...


The Brabant line Eindhoven - Tilburg - Breda is heavily trafficked and needs widening.


----------



## Slagathor

K_ said:


> In rhe other direction this train should be extended to Antwerpen.
> So we get Antwerpen - Breda - Tilburg - Eindhoven - Venlo,- Dusseldorf...


I've always wondered why the Belgians haven't pushed for an IC Eindhoven - Brussels via Zaventem Airport. A regular IC on that route (using the high speed line between Breda and Antwerp) would put Zaventem airport at a similar travel time as Schiphol from Eindhoven. 

Since Eindhoven's a booming hub attracting more and more expats who tend to fly quite often, this seems like a no-brainer...


----------



## da_scotty

^^
Zaventem is becasue of Schiphol. You get a airport, we get a airport. "its unfair to our home carier".

The other story is that it will probably be Dusseldorf-Eindhoven-Rotterdam-The Hague. As The Hague has decided to join the Eindhoven lobby as they want a connection with Germany as well.


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## Wilhem275

Makes sense linking it to the Hague IC.


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## Momo1435

Theijs said:


> Direct Intercity Eindhoven - Düsseldorf to be introduced by 2025. The journey time would be reduced to 2 hours.
> 
> Source: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2018/11/17/directe-trein-eindhoven-–-dusseldorf-onderweg


The press release says that the current time is 2 hours and that it will be reduced to 1:40. Which is a case of purposely making the improvement sounding better then it really is, making it sound that you do something good, but the reality will be nice, but not that much better then the current situation. The current timing is 1:49 from Eindhoven to Düsseldorf and 1:52 in the opposite direction, not 2 hours. So the reduction will be about 10 minutes at the most, that's just half of what they claim it will be. 

It's also called an Intercity, but the reality is that it will be the extension of the current German RE that runs from Hamm via Düsseldorf to Venlo. So it's just as the Regional Express, but then it runs to Eindhoven and not to Venlo. If it would also have become an proper IC in Germany it would even be faster then just this 10 minute reduction. Of course it's called an IC on the Dutch part as the new train will skip most stations between Eindhoven and Venlo, this means that it will also be an improvement for travels between the 3 Dutch cities it will serve. The current Dutch IC trains on this line do stop at all stations. It's just called an IC because the trains continue to Utrecht, Amsterdam Zuid and Schiphol as proper Intercity trains. Travelers from Venlo beyond Eindhoven will be bit faster, but they will have to change trains more often. 

The trains that are going to be used for the trains to Eindhoven will be very similar to the current Stadler Flirt EMUs which are currently used on the RE to Venlo. The current trains will most likely be retired when the current concession for this RE ends, which is in 2025. The new concession holder will have to buy / lease new trains that can run beyond Venlo on the Dutch network (if Nordrhein-Westfalen doesn't finance the trains for the new concession holder). 

This whole construction will also make it very unlikely that the trains will be extended to other cities in the Netherlands. Since the trains will be linked to the new German concession, which is the reason why they will only start in 2025 and not earlier, any other changes will already have to be incorporated into this concession.

So all in all it will be a nice new connection, but we should not expect to much of it in terms of it being a real Intercity train.


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## Slagathor

Cross-border trains are so hopeless these days. Makes you wonder if we should just rip out all the overhead wires and run diesels again. No platforms either, since we can't agree on standard sizes. If you can't climb on board, you're on your own.


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## Theijs

Our parliament has been updated today about several cross border rail initiatives. https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/binari...-internationaal-personenvervoer-per-spoor.pdf (in Dutch).


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## Theijs

Let’s hope that by 2025 the whole line Den Haag - Rotterdam has 4 tracks: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actuee...en-in-druk-spoor-tussen-den-haag-en-rotterdam


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## Wilhem275

I don't understand if this means 4 tracks between Delft Zuid and Schiedam, or just a rearrangement of the line between Schiedam and Rotterdam CS to make full use of the existing 4 tracks (or both).

They never mention it, but sooner or later a third flyover will be needed west of Rotterdam, to solve the conflict between local traffic from Den Haag and HS/freight traffic from Schiphol/Gouda.


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## da_scotty

^^
Delft Zuid- Schiedam will remain 2-track. Which is fine'ish as it has no stations. It's just linking the old Hoekse lijn tracks to the Oude Lijn tracks. They "can" do that already, but it requires a 40km/h switch so it's not feasable on such a busy section.

Expanding that section will be difficult and expensive. It's a proteceted landscape and green buffer so 4 tracking might need a A4-road deepened construction.

It doesn't need a flyover per-se, it does however require a re'do of the Rotterdam yard, which I think is needed in case of using all the four tracks at Schiedam. This is because platform 1/2 at schiedam can only reach platform 2+3 at Rotterdam.


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## The Polwoman

^^ There will be no stations two-tracked anymore along the old line, but nonetheless, having less tracks can cause trouble once even the slightest minutes will start to count. Of course they will be able to throw 8 sprinters and 8 IC's through it giving one train every 3:45min, but that means you got to keep them separate almost perfectly to not disrupt the system. It's a two-tracked version of how they try to plan around the idiotic situation of the single-track Ravenstein bridge, that thing bites already. Once the capacity is exhausted entirely, it means they have to start drawing the timetable from there, those kind of points should be limited to prevent a mess of trains having to stop for longer than 1 or 2 minutes (worse: 5) at every single cobblestone, like the Roosendaal-Zwolle IC or some of the trains along the Amsterdam-Eindhoven corridor.

But I'm already surprised given the fact that they want to invest into trains sometimes, given the car-centric party in the governments that has already destroyed entire parties with their authoritarian and corrupt style of governing.


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## Suburbanist

The Dutch government unveiled details of a 2040 plan to have one Intercity train every 10 min between 9 core cities: Eindhoven, Rotterdam, Den Haag, Utrecht, Arnhem, Nijmegen, Breda, Zwolle and Amsterdam


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## Wilhem275

da_scotty said:


> It doesn't need a flyover per-se, it does however require a re'do of the Rotterdam yard, which I think is needed in case of using all the four tracks at Schiedam. This is because platform 1/2 at schiedam can only reach platform 2+3 at Rotterdam.



True, and for sure a rearrangement will be needed, but at a certain point the flyover will be necessary.
This is due to the lines arrangement south of Rotterdam, which determines the usage of the Willemsspoortunnel's 4 tracks: through traffic on external tracks (IC Direct, HS, freight), traffic calling at Blaak on the internal pair (IC and Sprinters).
This in turn forces Centraal to be arranged in the same fashion: tracks 2-5 and 10-12 express traffic, 6-9 local services.
Today there is no problem since the two flyovers already lead the two Schiedam tracks "in the middle" of Centraal, and almost all of Schiedam's traffic is local.


With the future 4 tracks arrangement also Schiedam will bring into CS an Express-Local-Local-Express pattern, and they'll need to mix with the other lines without conflicts.
3 of those 4 tracks will need to jump over the other lines, and there comes the need for the third flyover.

Something like this:












Otherwise they'll have many conflicts between local and express traffic.


----------



## 3737

The first ICNG (number 6001) is finished for static testing.



















Still in black but with the finished design it will look something like this:










Link


----------



## Wilhem275

Mat '57 is back


----------



## Suburbanist

If they only had elongated the nose to evoque the V250 &#55357;&#56842;


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> If they only had elongated the nose to evoque the V250 ��


No, no, no.


----------



## M-NL

Wilhem275 said:


> Mat '57 is back


Blue with a yellow stripe. No thanks. I actually think the original yellow and blue intercity livery of the Mat '54 would look very good on this (and would also eliminate that weird black to blue transition of the mock-up)


----------



## da_scotty

It's a very "happy looking" train!


----------



## Wilhem275

M-NL said:


> the original yellow and blue intercity livery of the Mat '54


That is what I actually had in mind, thank you.


----------



## M-NL

I wish I knew how to use photoshop to give an idea how much better it would look, but tastes are diverse.


----------



## Wilhem275

Well, I guess the ICx plans are definitely over...

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/db-previews-talgo-ecx-long-distance-train/



> DB announced last month that it had selected Talgo for a framework contract to supply up to 100 trains, which have been given the working title of ‘ECx’, with an initial order for 23 trains worth €550m. DB says it has deliberately opted for a proven vehicle platform in order to optimise reliability through proven components and minimise lead times for the fleet.
> 
> The locomotives and coaches will be introduced from December 2023, initially on a two-hourly Amsterdam – Berlin service, where they will reduce journey times by around 30 minutes to 5h 50min by eliminating locomotive changes at the Dutch-German border.

















































I like Talgos, they're a super comfortable ride.


----------



## Slagathor

Guess everyone's gonna stick with KLM.


----------



## Rover030

I was reading about those Talgo trains yesterday, and found pretty much only positive aspects: more comfortable ride, less noise, lightweight, natural tilting, a bit wider because of the shorter cars. The only negative thing was that it's difficult to take individual cars away from the rest of the trains for maintenance, because they are supported by the wheels of the next car. But that's a problem for trains with Jacobs bogies as well I'd say.

So why is this concept not more widely used? Are the short cars an issue? I'd say when you have only one entrance area per car instead of two that is compensated for.


----------



## TER200

Rover030 said:


> I was reading about those Talgo trains yesterday, and found pretty much only positive aspects: more comfortable ride, less noise, lightweight, natural tilting, a bit wider because of the shorter cars. The only negative thing was that it's difficult to take individual cars away from the rest of the trains for maintenance, because they are supported by the wheels of the next car. But that's a problem for trains with Jacobs bogies as well I'd say.
> 
> So why is this concept not more widely used? Are the short cars an issue? I'd say when you have only one entrance area per car instead of two that is compensated for.


 I don't think you can remove a car easily from an ICE4 for example. Or if you can, you don't have one to replace it (as they are all different) so the whole trainset is stranded. But for maintenance it is still easier to separate cars to work on them on a non-articulated trains, while for articulated ones (for example the TGVs I know better) you always need an 200 meters long workshop.



Here, like on the railjet (and to some extent the TGVs), the power unit can be separated and changed easily. As the power unit typically has a lower disponibility rate than the coaches, you can have 20 trainsets with 21 locos for example, and switch the locos as they need maintenance (it is more flexible if you also have the same loco type for other services like ÖBB's Taurus).


----------



## Wilhem275

I wonder if, with multisystem machines, they will still have to stop in Bad Bentheim, or they can just switch voltage on the run.

There are many border stations in Europe which are completely useless for EC commercial service (Bad Bentheim, Brenner, Tarvisio) and should be skipped as it happens with any other handover technical point (like in Hoofddorp when switching to 25 kV and ETCS).


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## Mr_Dru

At least the trains has a better livery now.


----------



## MrAronymous

"better"


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## Suburbanist

The V250 has a very cool design. I think sometime in the future the Spoormuseum in Utrecht will buy an unit for display due to its unique story in Netherlands


----------



## bagus70

Is that duck nose train going to see service in Netherlands?


----------



## Slagathor

We'd rather go back to the horse.


----------



## Losbp

A pilot project on Passenger Information System in Utrecht Centraal station commences yesterday with new information such as crowd information in trains and also with time of arrival and departure of trains in exact seconds.


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## Suburbanist

Interesting.

What happened to that project with longitudinal platform signaling trialed in Den Bosch?

In Switzerland they use train formation info extensively. Seconds to departure is not used but trains departe exactly on time as scheduled.


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## da_scotty

^^ the test ended, the same signaling is now at the Schiphol platforms towards Amsterdam central due to the busy platforms there.


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## MrAronymous

But I've heard that the practice at Schiphol is kind of a failure, since the drivers don't always stop exactly where they need to.


----------



## MrAronymous

First moving images of the ICNG.


----------



## K_

Losbp said:


> A pilot project on Passenger Information System in Utrecht Centraal station commences yesterday with new information such as crowd information in trains and also with time of arrival and departure of trains in exact seconds.


What is the definition of "departure time" in the Netherlands. Is it the time that the doors get locked and the train is thus departed from the point of view of the passenger, or is it the time the train starts moving?


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## Rover030

According to this article, it counts down until the moment that the conductor blows the whistle, which means that you are no longer allowed to enter the train and the door closure procedure will be started.


----------



## Theijs

K_ said:


> What is the definition of "departure time" in the Netherlands. Is it the time that the doors get locked and the train is thus departed from the point of view of the passenger, or is it the time the train starts moving?


The Timetable departure time, visible at the platforms, is the time the train starts moving.


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## K_

Theijs said:


> The Timetable departure time, visible at the platforms, is the time the train starts moving.


How soon before that do you have to be on board? From the point of view of the passengers the train has left the moment you can no longer board. So it would be better to have that displayed.


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## AlexNL

At NS, the departure process is started 20 seconds prior to the posted departure time. So if a train is advertised as departing at 09:23, the guard will blow their whistle at 09:22:40.


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## The Polwoman

And in the future, it could be started at every six seconds: so when at 3/10 of a minute: 12:00:18s, they will start to whistle at 11:59:58. The departure time is still from the latter minute.


----------



## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> At NS, the departure process is started 20 seconds prior to the posted departure time. So if a train is advertised as departing at 09:23, the guard will blow their whistle at 09:22:40.


I still think this is stupid. If a train is advertised to depart at 09:23, that should be the moment the departure procedure starts. The only difference it makes is that the entire timetable is pushed back by 20 seconds (like it used to be before the current departure procedure).


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## Suburbanist

I think since the last major timetable revamp in 2014 (?) they at least took care of the issue of extremely tight connections that had people running like crazy on stairs/escalators to make transfers. Duivendrecht and Deventer used to have such situations with an oncoming train arriving just 1 min on the schedule before the departing train. 

These connections were not advertised on the NS planner, but people traveling daily, fit and light on luggage would surely race across the stations to avoid a 31 min wait... The result was then common delays as once a line of people entering the nearest train door is there, conductors are reluctant to go and stop it.


----------



## AlexNL

Those kind of unofficial connections still exist all over the network. They're not always advertised as such, but they definitely are there.


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> Duivendrecht and Deventer used to have such situations with an oncoming train arriving just 1 min on the schedule before the departing train.
> 
> These connections were not advertised on the NS planner, but people traveling daily, fit and light on luggage would surely race across the stations to avoid a 31 min wait...


What makes this worse is that when you are actually in the train they tried to change to and missed, you often notice that it regularly crawls to the next station at a snails pace because of padding in the timetable. It would have made it to the next station on time even if it departed slightly late, but in that case the statistics would show a late departure. And that is of course far worse then disgruntled passengers.


----------



## NCT

A bit strange for late departures to be monitored no? Surely people only care about late arrivals?


----------



## Wilhem275

NS just warned me to not travel by train on 28/05 :lol: due to a strike, they foresee little or no traffic.


----------



## TER200

M-NL said:


> What makes this worse is that when you are actually in the train they tried to change to and missed, you often notice that it regularly crawls to the next station at a snails pace because of padding in the timetable. It would have made it to the next station on time even if it departed slightly late, but in that case the statistics would show a late departure. And that is of course far worse then disgruntled passengers.


End possibly delayaing the next train. But of course this is far less important then you missing the connection :tongue3:


----------



## The Polwoman

AlexNL said:


> Those kind of unofficial connections still exist all over the network. They're not always advertised as such, but they definitely are there.


There are many of them indeed. One of them is for specific Brabantian villages and suburbs to Amersfoort and Apeldoorn: They take the first possible IC in Den Bosch to Utrecht (departure every 10min), and then connect there to the IC to Enschede.

Departure time in Den Bosch is at 7:08 and officially arrives at 7:36, 28 minutes. And the exact departure time for the IC to Amersfoort/Apeldoorn/Enschede. However, the path of the IC is swimming too much, honestly, and so arrives usually at 7:33, 25 minutes only. And even then it goes at snail's pace around Houten where they have room for acceleration. Given the tight schedule south of Houten such big margins bring negative effects to later trains. And with 8 minutes waiting no one's going to benefit. We're not in rural Eastern Europe, this is the lifeline between Amsterdam and tech haven Eindhoven.

Ultimately, with most train drivers you'll be able to transfer to the other train, either running, sometimes even walking. A few trains unluckily delay, some are however douches pretending to drive economically (which to me is weird since the NS claims to drive for 100% on green energy).


----------



## TER200

The Polman said:


> pretending to drive economically (which to me is weird since the NS claims to drive for 100% on green energy).


 The only real "green ernergy" is the one you don't use.
The rest is greenwashing, it does not excuse from sparing (and it's not free).


However you're right, too much margin creates timetable dispersion and thus reduces capacity.


----------



## mistertl

Even with "green" energy, the bill still has to be paid. You'll probably see the trains coasting a lot more from July, as the new driver advisory system is rolled-out.


----------



## Suburbanist

Doesn't regenerative braking recovers most energy?


----------



## AlexNL

Regenerative braking does recover energy, but in the Netherlands it can only be used to feed other trains within the same overhead line section. If none are there, the energy is simply lost.

It can't be fed back into the grid, due to limitations in the DC system design.


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## MarcVD

It is extremely easy nowadays to design a DC substation tgat can work "four quadrants" and feed excess energy back to the grid. This is exactly how a SNCF BB 26000 (for example) works. The grid must however be ready to accept it. And that is indeed another story...


----------



## Wilhem275

Regenerative braking is more efficient in "closed environments" like a metro line or tram network, where another vehicle is likely to drag the energy somewhere, and frequent stops are needed anyway.

For a train it will always be more efficient to coast for long distances, if the schedule isn't too tight.

I agree, though, that going too slow and with a lax timetable is not good for the system. I have the impression NS is taking it too easy nowadays.


----------



## davide84

MrAronymous said:


> First moving images of the ICNG.


The trainset #601/602 has started to run on the Velim test track.
Short summary of the italian article linked below...
The train has 5 elements; another one should join soon, and then two trainsets with 8 elements. Maximum speed will be 200 km/h. The order includes 79 trains, of which 49 with 5 elements (110 m) and the rest with 8 elements (165 m).
Two of the trainsets will have some kind of technical readiness to circulate on the belgian network as well.

http://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/8520


----------



## EMArg

Shots of the Amsterdam Centraal:


----------



## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## Wilhem275

Which station is this?











Edit: sorry, found out, it's Amersfoort, I couldn't recognize it from this perspective.


----------



## da_scotty

Amersfoort I would say indeed.


----------



## EMArg

At *Rotterdam Centraal*:


----------



## EMArg

^^


Video:


----------



## EMArg

Train trip from *Amsterdam* to *Rotterdam*


----------



## MrAronymous

Today:


> *NS wants to build above Utrecht, The Hague and Sloterdijk railways and to renovate stations with revenue*
> 
> NS wants to realize thousands of homes above the railways around Utrecht CS, The Hague CS and Amsterdam Sloterdijk. The proceeds will be used to modernize the stations and station areas in these cities. NS and ProRail announce this today and Thursday.
> 
> David Bremmer 10-07-19, 06:01
> 
> This spring the idea was suggested to take a look at the possibilities of building above the track. This week, that idea will take shape seriously. On Wednesday, the municipality of Utrecht, the Central Government Real Estate Agency, ProRail and NS conclude a letter of intent to investigate whether the railway above Utrecht Central can be built on with houses and offices. They do this in the presence of State Secretary Knops (Home Affairs). According to NS, the rails above and at Utrecht Central Station offer no less than 91,000 square meters of potential building land. That is as much as 15 to 18 football pitches. The Moreelse Tuinen site, right next to the railway at Utrecht CS, also offers a lot of space.
> 
> On Thursday, NS and ProRail in Amsterdam will sign a similar covenant with the municipality and with the Amsterdam Transport Region. The aim is to realize offices and homes above the railway at Sloterdijk station. In addition to Utrecht and Amsterdam Sloterdijk, NS is explicitly looking at whether the tracks at The Hague Central can also be built on. Football fields of area are also available here.
> 
> Sloterdijk needs to be refurbished
> They want to use the money that NS, ProRail and the municipality earn from housing construction to further modernize stations and station areas in the above-mentioned cities. For example, Amsterdam Sloterdijk needs to be refurbished urgently. Where most major train stations have been totally renewed in the last decade, Sloterdijk dating from 1983 is severely outdated. Moreover, the number of travelers is expected to increase sharply now that Amsterdam wants to add 40,000 to 70,000 homes in the nearby port area.
> 
> NS speaks of a unique construction, so that it is no longer solely dependent on the government for financing. "By building above the tracks of Amsterdam Sloterdijk, you can not only build a beautiful city district, but part of the revenue can also be used for the renovation of the station," says spokesperson Erik Kroeze. Building above the tracks is building in the most accessible place, he says. "You do not need any new public transport connections for those homes and offices, because they are already there. So you immediately solve a accessibility problem."
> 
> This type of builing normal in many European cities
> The railways acquired in 1995 - rail management and NS were then split - the exclusive right to build above the rail. For a long time that possibility was of little value, because building above stations is expensive and therefore unprofitable. This has changed with the ever-rising house prices, certainly in the city centers of Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam and Utrecht. In many other European cities, such as London and Paris, buildings above the tracks are already completely normal.
> 
> If NS is indeed going to build, ProRail as co-owner of the stations and the rail must issue a permit for it. The railway manager acts constructively as a signatory to the aforementioned agreements. At the same time, ProRail warns of the risks. Passing trains cause heavy vibrations and noise, new homes and offices must be protected against this. This can be achieved by using so-called spring-loaded foundation piles. There must also be minimum standards for placing the foundation: how far off the rails can they go into the ground?
> 
> Train vibration nuisance
> Already 300,000 people live in the Netherlands within three hundred meters of the track. "That will certainly be much more in the coming decades," ProRail expects. Over the past five years, the manager has been sending letters to a hundred municipalities telling them to take measures to protect new homes and offices from vibrations. Many municipalities ignored that warning.
> 
> For that reason, the rail manager is now calling for legal measures against "train vibration nuisance". State Secretary Van Veldhoven (Infrastructure) is currently preparing legislation. "With those agreements in hand, we can make building around the Dutch railway together a success."
> 
> AD


A picture from earlier this year that shows how Amsterdam Sloterdijk might look in the future:


----------



## Suburbanist

Wouldn't it be better to build offices instead of houses in the immediate vicinity of said stations? 

I think housing-above-stations, in a high-density setting, could work better on satellite stations like Nieuw-Vennep or Dordrecht Zuid.

Duivendrecht could also see massive real estate development nearby.


----------



## 3737

*Amsterdam – Brussels trainsets ordered*

NETHERLANDS: National operator NS has awarded Alstom a contract to supply a further 18 Intercity New Generation 200 km/h electric multiple-units, which will provide it with a pool of 20 units equipped for use on Amsterdam – Brussels services as well as domestic routes.

This would enable the locomotive-hauled ICR stock which is currently used on the international route to be withdrawn in 2025 when it will be life-expired.

The firm order for 18 units confirmed at the end of July follows the initial €800m order for 49 five-car and 30 eight-car IC-NG units which was placed in July 2016.

The IC-NG is part of Alstom’s Coradia Stream family. The EMUs will be equipped to operate on the 25 kV 50 Hz HSL-Zuid high speed line as well as the 1·5 kV DC conventional network in the Netherlands. Two EMUs from the first batch, and all of the units in the latest order, will also equipped to operate under 3 kV DC electrification in Belgium.

The first of the initial IC-NG units are currently undergoing testing ahead of entry into passenger service on the Amsterdam – Rotterdam – Breda route from 2021 and the Den Haag – Eindhoven route from 2022. Passenger facilities will include wheelchair-accessible toilets, wi-fi, USB sockets, passenger information screens, intelligently-controlled LED lighting and space for luggage.

If the concession to operate the Amsterdam – Brussels services were to be awarded to a company other than NS at some point in the future, the 20 EMUs equipped for international use would transfer to the new operator.

Link


----------



## MarcVD

3737 said:


> NETHERLANDS: National operator NS has awarded Alstom a contract to supply a further 18 Intercity New Generation 200 km/h electric multiple-units, which will provide it with a pool of 20 units equipped for use on Amsterdam – Brussels services as well as domestic routes.


Does that mean that the IC Brussels to Amsterdam and vv will become a pure NS affair ? Under which regime ? Open access ?


----------



## MarcVD

Duplicate, sorry.


----------



## btrs

MarcVD said:


> Does that mean that the IC Brussels to Amsterdam and vv will become a pure NS affair ? Under which regime ? Open access ?


It will depend if NS will again gain the concession of the so-called "Hoofdrailnet", in which the HSL-Zuid services are included since 2012.
But then again, if it loses this concession, the whole company is more-or-less redundant, so this probably won't happen.

I guess the setup will remain as the current state: SNCB drivers and train managers operate the train until Breda, then NS drivers and train managers operate until Amsterdam.
This is unlike the setup which Arriva wants to exercise on its Limax local services: namely only operated by Arriva drivers & service personnel in all three countries. SNCB is protesting heavily against this and is pushing for Arriva to operate with SNCB train managers from Maastricht (Randwyck?) onwards to Liège.


----------



## mistertl

I don't know about the exact arrangements, but I do know that a delegation from NMBS/SNCB has visited the mock-up and have given their input for the trains. So at least there is some collaboration between the two operators.


----------



## NCT

Good to see high-speed rolling stock finally progressing, after the saga of the V250. Slightly shame it's only 200km/h stock given what the line is capable of. Are the Thalys trains running at full line speed between Rotterdam and Schipol?


----------



## Sixhaven

btrs said:


> It will depend if NS will again gain the concession of the so-called "Hoofdrailnet", in which the HSL-Zuid services are included since 2012.
> 
> But then again, if it loses this concession, the whole company is more-or-less redundant, so this probably won't happen.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the setup will remain as the current state: SNCB drivers and train managers operate the train until Breda, then NS drivers and train managers operate until Amsterdam.
> 
> This is unlike the setup which Arriva wants to exercise on its Limax local services: namely only operated by Arriva drivers & service personnel in all three countries. SNCB is protesting heavily against this and is pushing for Arriva to operate with SNCB train managers from Maastricht (Randwyck?) onwards to Liège.



This is not the current set-up. Currently drivers and train managers are alternately provided by NS and NMBS and serve the whole route. There is no change in train managers in Breda.


----------



## mistertl

NCT said:


> Good to see high-speed rolling stock finally progressing, after the saga of the V250. Slightly shame it's only 200km/h stock given what the line is capable of. Are the Thalys trains running at full line speed between Rotterdam and Schipol?


Yes they are, and so are the Eurostar trains.


----------



## Klaasje

Between Schiphol and Rotterdam it's only for three minutes tough.


----------



## mistertl

Depends on the train. Thalys is very slow in acceleration, and even though it can maintain its speed on the higher speed regions more easily, Eurostars' acceleration is little bit better. Those trains can run at 300 km/h a bit longer.
While the total power output of the Thalys trains might be higher (considering that an E* is basically two trainsets coupled together), the E* seems to be better at accelerating at lower speeds, which makes the difference.


----------



## Wilhem275

What's the price difference to add 3 kV capability?

Maybe it's time to plan on the availability of dual 1,5/3 kV material.


----------



## da_scotty

Let them first make a plan what the new Dutch Voltage will be in the future. the VIRm and SLT are 25kV prepared, but the last plan was to transfer to 3000V instead of 25kV.

However, it has been very quiet on that front, and the other main project, the ERMTS introduction investment have been delayed and downscaled time and time again.


----------



## MarcVD

Sixhaven said:


> This is not the current set-up. Currently drivers and train managers are alternately provided by NS and NMBS and serve the whole route. There is no change in train managers in Breda.


Yes indeed, and not only that. SNCB also provides part of the traction. It was also like that in the past, SNCB always owned some of the rolling stock used to operate the route. Not anymore, it seems. Unless NS re-sells some of the stock to SNCB later on, like SNCB did with CFL. Hence my question...


----------



## Slagathor

da_scotty said:


> Let them first make a plan what the new Dutch Voltage will be in the future. the VIRm and SLT are 25kV prepared, but the last plan was to transfer to 3000V instead of 25kV.
> 
> However, it has been very quiet on that front, and the other main project, the ERMTS introduction investment have been delayed and downscaled time and time again.


Maybe NS want to have a whole fleet of trains that 25kV prepared so they can tell The Hague: "Look, it makes no sense going to 3000V now."

That's why they're buying all these trains while keeping their mouths shut.


----------



## Theijs

New pics from the IC NG EMUs: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hn37CjMfX7k&feature=youtu.be


----------



## btrs

da_scotty said:


> However, it has been very quiet on that front, and the other main project, the ERMTS introduction investment have been delayed and downscaled time and time again.


I think ProRail decided to let the Danes and Norwegians (both going through large ERTMS introductions due to life-expired lateral signalling) do the initial troubleshooting, and reap the benefits from them in the long run.

The HSL, Betuweroute and Traxx issues are just too fresh in people's minds, therefore they're putting now more emphasis on the new ICNG trains and more doubling/tripling of tracks to divert the attention from that.


----------



## da_scotty

^^
Could very well be true. However the dutch network is getting very very capacity constraint.


----------



## MrAronymous

Driebergen-Zeist station area reconstruction:


Momo1435 said:


> 20191013_155224 by Momo1435, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20191013_155208 by Momo1435, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20191013_155600 by Momo1435, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20191013_155655 by Momo1435, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20191013_155726 by Momo1435, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20191013_155802 by Momo1435, on Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

How are the works to make the OV-Chipkaart system work with NFC smartphones?

-------------
side note: I miss an OV-Chipkaart-alike system here in Switzerland, where we lack any for of systematic passenger ticketing control, except on certain aerial tramways leading to mountain villages.


----------



## davide84

Suburbanist said:


> I miss an OV-Chipkaart-alike system here in Switzerland, where we lack any for of systematic passenger ticketing control, except on certain aerial tramways leading to mountain villages.


This is done on purpose and corresponds to an opposite philosophy: public transport must be as easy as possible, ticketing control is based on trust and random checks, stations and trains have no gates nor special procedures... you just travel.

Today I bought a daily pass, I put it in my backpack and then I travelled on 14 different trains. As a user I liked a lot that I did not have to care about validating some kind of chipcard 28 times 🙂

If you miss the Dutch approach you can try the new "check in check out" functionality of the SBB app, I think it goes exactly in that direction.


----------



## mgk920

M-NL said:


> The root of all OV chipcard evil is that Translink wants to collect as much passenger information as possible. Any other system except for their own bespoke chip card system wouldn't have allowed them to do that.


Although this might seem like an anachronistic question to some, but do they accept totally anonymous euro banknotes and coins for fare payments?

:?

Mike


----------



## Suburbanist

mgk920 said:


> Although this might seem like an anachronistic question to some, but do they accept totally anonymous euro banknotes and coins for fare payments?
> 
> :?
> 
> Mike


You can buy an anonymous OV-Chipkaart and pre-load it with money. Or you can buy disposable OV-Chipkaart paying the exact value of the fare concerned (e.g. a single NS-train trip, a 24h GVB pass...). 

I am not sure the machines that dispense the cards still take money, though - as many other services in the Netherlands, there is a strong push for electronic transactions only (meaning: you use a bank card to pay for it).

On manned stations, you can buy disposable single-use OV-Chipkaarts. There is a fee for that, though. It was € 1.00 extra.


----------



## radamfi

Suburbanist said:


> I am not sure the machines that dispense the cards still take money, though - as many other services in the Netherlands, there is a strong push for electronic transactions only (meaning: you use a bank card to pay for it).


They still take coins, but not banknotes.


----------



## MrAronymous

Didn't the old ticket machines at some GVB stations also take banknotes, most importantly Centraal? Most of the recently installed new wider model built-in ticket machines found at most metro stations seem to have it available.


----------



## M-NL

radamfi said:


> They still take coins, but not banknotes.


But here's the kicker: The machine only takes a really limited number of coins per transaction (don't know the exact number), so even if you have the correct change you may not be able to buy a ticket.


----------



## The Polwoman

It's also a tremendously long time ago since I bought train tickets in Europe by cash, the Netherlands probably even in 2012. At that time banknotes were still accepted but I used my debit card even as a minor (I turned 18 that summer). I used cash only to get rid of cash given by others, not because the bank account was empty.


----------



## Guest

Rotterdam Centraal got a large train departure screen. 

https://www.treinreiziger.nl/rotterdam-heeft-groot-blauw-vertrekbord-terug-gekregen/


----------



## Momo1435

The 1st Stadler GTW "Spurt" operated by QBuzz (owned by the Italian railways) has got it's new look as the Merwedelinge Line between Dordrecht and Geldermalsen was branded as R-Net from the new 2020 timetable. 

Most of the trains are still in their former Arriva colors, the former operator of this line. 

R-Net is the universal brand given to more and more public transport services in both North and South Holland provinces in the western part of the Netherlands. This includes bus lines, tram lines and the metro systems of Amsterdam and Rotterdam. 

This is the 2nd railway that is branded R-Net, the 1st one was the Gouda - Alphen services which uses a fleet of Stadler Flirt trains. Both lines are not part of the national rail network which is operated by the NS. It's the Province of South Holland who is responsible for the franchises on both lines. As they are not responsible for any other lines it's unlikely that we will see more trains using the R-Net brand on other lines. 

I was lucky today to catch the Qbuzz R-Net GTW from Geldermalsen to Dordrecht. 



IMG_1724 by Momo1435, on Flickr


IMG_1722 by Momo1435, on Flickr


Meanwhile at Geldermalsen work is going on for a new platform for the Merwedelinge Line so the R-Net trains don't have cross the main line between Utrecht and 's Hertogenbosch anymore to reach the station. The single line branches off from the main line just north of the station after it crosses the Linge river. With the 10 minute interval Intercity services on the mainline it was decided to extend the single track branch line into the Geldermalsen station so there won't be any conflicts anymore between the trains on both lines. At the same time 2 level crossings will be eliminated, which are now more often closed then they are open.

The old station building which dates from 1884, located in the middle of the current single island platform will not be changed. The new platform will be located on the western side of the station on the former freight yard. The current pedestrian bridge over the tracks will be replaced by a new tunnel underneath the station. 



20191229_111858 by Momo1435, on Flickr



Some images of the new station.

https://www.gelderlander.nl/west-betuwe/dit-is-het-nieuwe-station-van-geldermalsen~a791ff4d/


----------



## Theijs

Momo1435 said:


> The new platform (at Geldermalsen) will be located on the western side of the station on the former freight yard.



In 1995 the freight yard was used to move live cradle out of the area endangered by floods.
Will the fright yard be 100% eliminated or will one or two tracks return (opstelsporen voor R-net)?


----------



## Momo1435

The remaining 2 freight tracks of the former freight yard have already been eliminated for the new island platform. 

The outer track of that platform will be for the Merwedelinge Line, the inner track will be for the Sprinters to 's Hertogenbosch. The current Island will have the Sprinters to Tiel on on side and the Sprinters from s' Hertogenbosch at the other side. There will be a 3rd new side platform for the Sprinters from Tiel. The Intercities will pass the station using the current through tracks that are not on a platform. This means that the station will have 7 tracks in the new situation, down from 8 in the previous situation. The old freight yard had even more tracks, but those were already removed for a parking lot and a new entrance to the station when the current bridge over the tracks was built not to long ago.

There won't be any tracks to park the R-Net trains in Geldermalsen, they will only be parked at Dordrecht. If there's no place in Dordrecht they actually the yard at Rotterdam Central station, that's also where they are washed. I doubt that even in the new situation a train will be left on the platform in Geldermalsen at night for the 1st train to Dordrecht. It's just to exposed to vandalism, much more then in Dordrecht where it's easier to guard them. This does mean that there will still be a need for the very early 1st train from Dordrecht to Geldermalsen which now leaves at 4:46. I can imagine that this will be one of trains with the least daily passengers in the whole of the Netherlands. But it's needed to have a train in the other direction capturing the early peak traffic towards Dordrecht.


----------



## da_scotty

I wonder if we will see a fly-over/dive under situation for the tiel-trains. Removing the crossing of the Northbound lines.


----------



## MoshiAmsterdam

da_scotty said:


> I wonder if we will see a fly-over/dive under situation for the tiel-trains. Removing the crossing of the Northbound lines.


It's not planned in the current project, thus unlikely in the near future. There will be an extra platform for the Tiel-Utrecht trains.


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## Wilhem275

Even though I have a fetish for flyovers, it would be an overkill with that traffic.

A minor flaw I can see in this station layout is that trains to Utrecht can depart from either platform 1 or 3, while the best practice would be to have a single platform for departures.
But honestly there was no way to apply it in this context.


----------



## da_scotty

Wilhem275 said:


> Even though I have a fetish for flyovers, it would be an overkill with that traffic.
> 
> A minor flaw I can see in this station layout is that trains to Utrecht can depart from either platform 1 or 3, while the best practice would be to have a single platform for departures.
> But honestly there was no way to apply it in this context.


Overkill?

It would negate the crossing of 2xhr (to Tiel) crossing a 8xhr section (North/South 6 IC's + 2 sprinters) . I've seen flyovers been constructed for less.


----------



## MoshiAmsterdam

da_scotty said:


> Overkill?
> 
> It would negate the crossing of 2xhr (to Tiel) crossing a 8xhr section (North/South 6 IC's + 2 sprinters) . I've seen flyovers been constructed for less.


Where? 2 Trains an hour is the minimum on Dutch railways. I.e. 2 tracks with 4 trains each might be less trains in total but more crossing movements. IC's will get priority so worst thing that can happen in the planned configuration is that travelers to Tiel will be delayed a few minutes (without blocking a needed track). Doesn't warrant a 100+ million investment imo.


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## Wilhem275

In practice it's one Sprinter which has to cross the mainline for 2 minutes, within a 10 minutes frame between two IC's (let's say 8 to avoid conflicts), and it can wait its turn without disturbing following traffic. It's quite a wide span to me.


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## da_scotty

^^
junctionss with less then 2/8 trains combined? There is quite a few?
It's not the two train section, it's the 8 train section + goods which makes pathing difficult. It would make the crossing more robust. It's not 100% needed, but if you invest in rebuilding the total geldermalsen area, why don't do it right.


----------



## MoshiAmsterdam

da_scotty said:


> ^^
> junctionss with less then 2/8 trains combined? There is quite a few?
> It's not the two train section, it's the 8 train section + goods which makes pathing difficult. It would make the crossing more robust.


Combined yes, but the number of crossing movements is relevant as well, which is only 2 an hour. As is the disturbance caused on the network in case of irregular operations which is none. 



> It's not 100% needed, but if you invest in rebuilding the total geldermalsen area, why don't do it right.


Because it would be very expensive to do it right especially in an urban area? You can do more effective things for the money it would cost.


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## kokomo

Hello Dutch friends! 

I bring you this snapshot I took a while ago on the highway in Buenos Aires, where this Wadloper can be seen. Unfortunately I am not able to provide any more details about its next destination but considering Argentina's lack of rolling stock and the interest of the new populist government to launch once more medium distance services, it wouldn't be crazy to give the _Waldos _a major overhauling and a new life. Cheers


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## Silly_Walks

It's like seeing an old friend again after a long, long time... and finding out he has a serious meth problem.

Thanks for sharing!


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## da_scotty

^^
Pointless, there is already a good Heerlen-Aachen service, a faster Eindhoven-Cologne service would be much more usefull for connections in to Germany and connecting way more people. The Limburg area is properly connected via the LIMAX (RE18) already.

All the time gains will be from a direct train in Eindhoven instead of a change, and it's 25min at best to Aken. Further along train times are much less effected.


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## Theijs

What do you mean?
Eindhoven - Aachen - Köln?
Or the Den Haag/Eindhoven - Köln Intercity as existed until the early 90’s?


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## da_scotty

The last one, that would serve way more people and offer better connections in to germany and beyond.
I´d rather have that then doubling a existing service with a service that is barely faster and serves a mainly national purpose instead of the international purpose.


----------



## btrs

Already mentioned in the local cross-border railway topic, but since it concerns NL as well it deserves a cross-post:



btrs said:


> Until now, the so called "Limax" (Liège-Maastricht-Aachen eXpress) or "Drielandentrein" (lit. "Three Countries Train") is barred from operating in Belgium.
> While it is equipped with the necessary STM-TBL1+, the Belgian railway safety authority DVIS-SSICF (a department of the Federal Ministry of Transport - FOD Mobiliteit) rejected the homologation. Arriva was forced to restrict the RE18 service to Maastricht until the installation of a full ETCS system compatible with Belgian rail infrastructure is completed.
> 
> A few days ago, Stadler was awarded a contract for equipping all Flirt 3 trainsets operated by Arriva NL with ETCS L2 Baseline 3 systems which will be compatible for operation in all 3 countries:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Arriva and Stadler sign contract to refit trains with ETCS automatic train protection system GUARDIA *
> 
> _Arriva Nederland and Stadler signed a contract to refit 36 trains with the European Train Control System (ETCS) GUARDIA. The project will include the homologation of GUARDIA for the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. The fleet of 36 trains includes 8 trains that have already been used on the international train line RE18 in Limburg. The regional carrier Arriva is the first in the Netherlands to order the system to make its trains suitable for the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS). The first trains with the built-in system will be ready for use in 2022. _
> 
> 
> 
> Source: https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/2020_0629_media release refit arriva_en.pdf
> 
> Since the first retrofitted trains will only be ready in 2022, SNCB still needs to operate current Break (AM80)-trainsets between Liège and Maastricht for the next 2 years..
Click to expand...


----------



## da_scotty

Let's see what the NMBS finds now to stop the service.

Competition on the belgian railways, mes non c'est n'est pas possible.


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## MarcVD

I'm sorry, but in this case SNCB has nothing to do with that. The interdiction comes from the SSICF, which is the Belgian railways certification authority. It depends of the transport ministry and has nothing to do with SNCB. The people working for this organisation all have a "cover your ass" attitude pushed to the greatest extent, so will always interpret the law in the most restrictive way. In this case, the law says, since a few years already, that all new rolling stock candidate for certification in Belgium must be equipped with ETCS. Arrival knew that very well, and decided to ignore it. They gambled and they lost. And in this particular case, it is perfectly justified, as there is already ETCS in the station of Liege Guillemins.


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## Slagathor

They bought the wrong trains, not Belgium's fault.


----------



## yc1000

NS is going to introduce two additional 10 minute train services (6 times an hour) in 2022. The first 10 minute train was introduced between Amsterdam Central Station and Eindhoven in 2017. The new connection is the Arnhem - Utrecht - Amsterdam Zuid - Schiphol - Leiden Centraal - The Hague HS - Rotterdam line. So between Arnhem and Schiphol Airport there will be 6 connections an hour of which 4 direct and 2 with a change at Utrecht Centraal. Between Schiphol and Rotterdam there will be 6 connections of which 4 direct and 2 with a change in Leiden Centraal.

Furthermore, the first local "sprinter" train service will also have a 10 minute interval between Rotterdam and Dordrecht all day.

Source in Dutch: Derde tienminutentrein tussen Rotterdam, Den Haag, Leiden en Schiphol


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## Suburbanist

This 6 connections between Schiphol and R'dam Centraal exclude the 4 ones through the HSL, right?


----------



## Suburbanist

I am not sure such high frequency at expense of higher speeds and longer double-decker trains is the right approach. This starts to resemble a gigantic urban metro network with trains every 10 minutes... The only advantage is that people no longer need to plan such trips. But the trips still take a long time.


----------



## Suburbanist

(from NS)


----------



## yc1000

Suburbanist said:


> This 6 connections between Schiphol and R'dam Centraal exclude the 4 ones through the HSL, right?


Yes, correct. But NS is also planning a 6x/h service on the high speed line, not sure whether they are in a nice 10 minute interval. But this is after 2022.


----------



## __Abigail__

Suburbanist said:


> I am not sure such high frequency at expense of higher speeds and longer double-decker trains is the right approach. This starts to resemble a gigantic urban metro network with trains every 10 minutes... The only advantage is that people no longer need to plan such trips. But the trips still take a long time.


The right approach for what? The biggest problem the Dutch railways are facing is the one of capacity. More trains means more capacity. And most people take the train only for a few stops -- shorter wait times have a bigger impact on travel time than whatever can be gained by driving faster.


----------



## Suburbanist

That would be interesting, next step is merging RET, HTM and GVB


----------



## Suburbanist

__Abigail__ said:


> The right approach for what? The biggest problem the Dutch railways are facing is the one of capacity. More trains means more capacity. And most people take the train only for a few stops -- shorter wait times have a bigger impact on travel time than whatever can be gained by driving faster.


For faster-driving trains with great acceleration, they need to re-wire the core network to 25kV AC....


----------



## yc1000

Suburbanist said:


> For faster-driving trains with great acceleration, they need to re-wire the core network to 25kV AC....


That would be expensive. I would like it too, but I think focusing on an upgrade to 3 kV is more useful at the moment.


----------



## Suburbanist

With so many trains now in Rotterdam Centraal, I wonder if Pro-Rail/NS are starting to regret a massive missed opportunity a decade ago: to build a deep tunnel connecting the two approaches of the HSL, parallel in the North to the new metro tunnel, such that trains Hoofddorp <=> Lage Zwaule (and points before/beyond) could cross Rotterdam in a deep tunnel perpendicular to the current tracks at Rotterdam Centraal. Like Berlin Hbf., to some extent. This would have allowed not only a few minutes gain on all high-speed trains but also reduced capacity issues on the tunnels and tracks between Rotterdam Centraal and Lombardijen.

As they were building both the metro line and finishing the HSL, they could have done a joint excavation project.


----------



## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> For faster-driving trains with great acceleration, they need to re-wire the core network to 25kV AC....


SNCF ran TGVs at 220 km/h on the classical line Tours - Bordeaux under 1,5 kV. Before that, classical loco hauled trains, notably with the famous CC6500 locs, ran on this line at 200 km/h. SNCB runs at 200 km/h between Brussels and Leuven under 3 kV, and plans to to it also all the way to Brugge. No need to have 25 kV catenary to run fast, provided you ensure enough power supply and enough catenary cross-section.


----------



## Suburbanist

MarcVD said:


> SNCF ran TGVs at 220 km/h on the classical line Tours - Bordeaux under 1,5 kV. Before that, classical loco hauled trains, notably with the famous CC6500 locs, ran on this line at 200 km/h. SNCB runs at 200 km/h between Brussels and Leuven under 3 kV, and plans to to it also all the way to Brugge. No need to have 25 kV catenary to run fast, provided you ensure enough power supply and enough catenary cross-section.


In this case, the issue is more enough power to have a line full of trains, metro-style, each of them large, heavy and needing a fast acceleration profile from zero to 140/160. That is a lot of wattage drawn simultaneously... something that is easier to deal with 25000V AC integrated with the national grids than the dedicated pro_Rail 1500V DC infra.


----------



## MarcVD

You don't need dedicated infrastructure. Each substation takes the 3 phase power of the national grid to convert it into 1,5 kV=. It’s an easy electrical scheme with 6 rectifiers. The load on the national grid is perfectly balanced, which is not the case with 25 kV~ because it is single phase. What you just need is enough substations to feed the right power and a very thick catenary (the NS one isn’t), or feeder cables, to bring the power to the locos with minimal losses.

Only 15kV~ 16,7 Hz needs dedicated infrastructure because the frequency is not the same as the national grid.


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## davide84

M-NL said:


> Still I Had the choice the I would have at least chosen the German S-Bahn height of 96cm over 76cm.


There is no such choice. The standards mandate either 550mm or 760mm.


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## wbrm

I think the choice mentioned is the choice of standard.


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## AlbertJP

The platforms used to be 84cm high in the Netherlands, and have had to be lowered to 76cm in many places (or the tracks raised, which happened at Amsterdam RAI leading to insufficient clearance between the catenary and the station roof and a permanent 80 km/h speed restriction through the station.)

For the ICNG-B you need to have the same platform height in The Netherlands and Belgium, which we at least have now.


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## M-NL

davide84 said:


> There is no such choice. The standards mandate either 550mm or 760mm.


Yes and no. Several countries have exceptions for the mandated 55cm or 76cm, the Netherlands could have demanded one as well. But then the Dutch pragmatism kicked in. It would have meant that international trains would pose a problem, because most coaches and high speed trains are currently built for 55cm/76cm platforms. Building seperate plaforms would be impractical.


----------



## davide84

wbrm said:


> I think the choice mentioned is the choice of standard.


Mmm... I don't believe we should expect that much of a choice here.
Today in Europe (not just EU, e.g. CH) the are two official and international standards for new constructions and rolling stock. Of course any administration can choose something else and make it "its" standard, but that would go against decades of effort in harmonizing railways across the continent. Committees composed by NL and other national administrations have already agreed that 550 mm and 760 mm offer the best compromise between performance and compatibility* and committed to stick to them as much as possible. Industry and regulators committed as well.

*I agree it's debatable, but TSI specifications have been written and accepted so the matter is officially considered settled.


----------



## Wilhem275

M-NL said:


> The high floor areas are likely at the same height, meaning there is more internal heigth difference in the Italian models.


Yes, there's a tall empty space above windows... which in turn emphasizes Alstom's love for small windows.


----------



## MrAronymous

I don't think it's a case of Alstom's preference as much as simple pragmatism. Windows leak heat/cold and demand more maintenance. They also probably calculated a standard window size and use that for every seat. Not everywhere needs AlpExpress panorama cars. I'm sure Alstom is willing to put in more window surface if the customers asks for it and pays up. Amsterdam's metro windows are ginormous.


----------



## TER200

Bigger windows are not only more expensive, they also usually make the structure heavier... it looks like there is a recent trend to reduce the size of windows on trains (compared to 20 years old designs like the Desiro Classic or the Coradia LINT) for those reasons.


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## Theijs

The space above the windows is also used to store luggage in Dutch trains.


----------



## Suburbanist

North-American trains, especially the Amtrak fleet, have tiny windows compared to their European counterparts.


----------



## Wilhem275

Stadler somehow managed to solve all this years ago: lightweight, wide and tall windows, large luggage racks, easy to mantain.













__





Stadler Flirt






www.bahnaktuell.net





It all comes down to platform capabilities. There's a well known limit in Coradia's industrial process (except for the Lint, developed separately). Yes they can provide any solution to a paying customer, but the price would be unmanageable.

I don't know how they manage their industrial process, but Stadler usually provides platforms much better designed in all segments.


----------



## MrAronymous

Stadler also barely allows for customization.


----------



## Wilhem275

And probably for the best, given how smooth custom projects turn out


----------



## Stuu

MrAronymous said:


> Stadler also barely allows for customization.


They build loads of very customised trains, such as all the different sized EMUs for Swiss mountain railways which are often in single figure numbers. The interiors of their trains are also very different between operators


----------



## M-NL

MrAronymous said:


> Stadler also barely allows for customization.


Stadler uses more of a configurable options concept instead of customization. That makes for a more predictable outcome.
Still there are a lot more differences then just different seats and interior colors. When you take a look at the drivers cab of the NS, R-Net, Keolis, Arriva, Eurobahn and Abellio FLIRTS you'll notice they're all different.


Wilhem275 said:


> And probably for the best, given how smooth custom projects turn out


The fact that the Abellio FLIRTs for the Arnhem-Dusseldorf service had little problems, despite the challenging border crossing at Zevenaar with two system switches in rapid succession, while the Eurobahn FLIRTs for the Hengelo-Bielefeld services did, despite a single system switch while stationary at Bad Bentheim, suggests that even FLIRTS are more differences under the skin then we know. (And yes, a lot of issues were also caused by a lack of drivers and the available drivers not being trained for driving in the Netherlands)
But yes, all kinds of custom wishes NS had for recent rolling stock series backfired. When a manufacturer asks you to reconsider a change, but you insist, you should not be surprised.


----------



## Grunnen

The Alstom trains that e.g. are used between Dresden and Hof in Germany have small windows, but are otherwise clearly more comfortable (less noise, less vibrations) than Flirt trains.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Any idea about how is managed the 3-track Hemtunnel? Railways with an odd number of tracks (mostly 3) are rare and usually end up being managed as one or more double track lines (one per direction) plus a single track used in both directions.









Amsterdam · Netherlands


Netherlands




www.google.ch


----------



## Grunnen

^^ According to Wikipedia, the tunnel has three tracks because of freight traffic, and the center track has a wider loading gauge for special freight trains.


----------



## mistertl

Coccodrillo said:


> Any idea about how is managed the 3-track Hemtunnel? Railways with an odd number of tracks (mostly 3) are rare and usually end up being managed as one or more double track lines (one per direction) plus a single track used in both directions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amsterdam · Netherlands
> 
> 
> Netherlands
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch


It's exactly as you say. The outer tracks are used as the regular double track, the inner track is used in both directions in the regular timetable.


----------



## Wilhem275

To get an empyrical idea of how much the central tube is used, you can watch some cabview videos and check the proportion of dirt over the 3 portals 

It is interesting to see this 3-tracks segment within the layout leading to it:


http://www.sporenplan.nl/html_nl/sporenplan/ns/ns_normaal/asd.html



The line at both ends is configured so that 2 tracks per direction can be used at full capacity at a given time. On the Amsterdam side the tunnel is fed by a heavily used couple of tracks (from Centraal) plus a few trains coming from the Hemboog (Schiphol), and the tunnel capacity reflects this setup.

A funny oddity of the Dutch network: just north of Zaandam, the line to Enkhuizen forks out. The southbound track runs on a viaduct so that it joins the Alkmaar line with a flying junction, also passing over several roads, while the northbound track runs at ground level and crosses said roads.
It's a rather weird railway crossing because it crosses two lanes of bike path, four lanes of motorway and two lanes of local road, while the railway is a single track used in just one direction.
It's kind of rare to find railway crossings where the road is one way only, but this one is probaby the only one where the railway is one way only


----------



## M-NL

mistertl said:


> If it were that simple, I have no doubt that it would have been offered by Alstom.


I actually think the oposite happened. It was offered by Alstom, but for some reason rejected by either NS, an infrastructure manager, a government inspection agency or the notified body doing the approval process.


----------



## mistertl

No, that is not what happened. And I'll leave it with that. I already said way too much on this forum about it.


----------



## Theijs

mistertl said:


> Because of the rules in Belgium, the ICNG-B will, for example, not be able to use the Dutch un-wired bridges the normal way.


A clear example dates from 1984, when a Belgium EMU came for tests to the The Netherlands and had to pass the unwired bridge south of Leiden (De Vink)

__
https://flic.kr/p/CyFSM5
but stranded there as the driver didn’t think about the difference in height of the pantograph between NL and B...


----------



## MarcVD

mistertl said:


> A mechanical limiter is not allowed by Belgium, from what I'm told (but I'm not an expert in that kind of matter, so this is how I understand it). IIRC it had something to do with different overhead wire heights on different railway lines in Belgium, which means that it has to be a software implementation, but maybe someone with actual knowledge from Belgium can correct or confirm that.
> In the Netherlands it is basically mandatory to have a "stuit" as we call it in order to be able to cross the bridges with a raised pantograph. So all trains without the mechanical limiter need to lower the pantographs.
> On a Traxx 186 (and soon the ICNG-B) software limits the pantograph from raising too high, based on the country selection by the driver, but it is not deemed reliable enough.


All belgian multi system locos that could go in the Netherlands (HLE 11, 15, 16, 18, 25.5) as well as the french CC 40100 were equipped with a latch that limited the pantograph extension, active only when the administration selector was set on the ”1500V NS” position. TGVs PBA and PBKA have it as well. PBAs were made from TGV réseau, this is one of the modifications that had to be made. With another administration selected, this latch is not active. There is no need, as such catenary interruption can only be found in the Netherlands. 

The 3000V belgian locos that did occasionnaly venture in the Netherlands under half voltage did not, as they never went further than the border stations of Maastricht and Rosendaal. The selector also has/had a ”1500 SNCF” position for SNCF 1500V lines where this latch was not activated.


----------



## MarcVD

Theijs said:


> A clear example dates from 1984, when a Belgium EMU came for tests to the The Netherlands and had to pass the unwired bridge south of Leiden (De Vink)
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/CyFSM5
> but stranded there as the driver didn’t think about the difference in height of the pantograph between NL and B...


Could you please give more info about this picture please ? This EMU type is 3 kV= only, and never visited the NS network further than Maastricht in regular service.


----------



## mistertl

MarcVD said:


> All belgian multi system locos that could go in the Netherlands (HLE 11, 15, 16, 18, 25.5) as well as the french CC 40100 were equipped with a latch that limited the pantograph extension, active only when the administration selector was set on the ”1500V NS” position. TGVs PBA and PBKA have it as well. PBAs were made from TGV réseau, this is one of the modifications that had to be made. With another administration selected, this latch is not active. There is no need, as such catenary interruption can only be found in the Netherlands.
> 
> The 3000V belgian locos that did occasionnaly venture in the Netherlands under half voltage did not, as they never went further than the border stations of Maastricht and Rosendaal. The selector also has/had a ”1500 SNCF” position for SNCF 1500V lines where this latch was not activated.


Interesting to hear that all those loco's had such a thing, because we even have special sub-signs that basically say: if you're running foreign trains, you have to lower the pantographs for this bridge and all Belgian loco's had to follow that signage. They were specifically constructed for the Belgian locomotives visiting the Netherlands and could be found on the routes that the Belgian loco's would normally take.
So if I understand it correctly, that would have been unnecessary. Then I wonder why it was done anyway.

Signs are still there until today, see for example this cab ride video (from 18 minutes and 48 seconds):


----------



## Klaasje

Well, some accidents did happen using the 25.5. So at least the story above isn't fully true.


----------



## Wilhem275

...maybe it's just about time to wire those bridges... 😅


----------



## da_scotty

MarcVD said:


> Could you please give more info about this picture please ? This EMU type is 3 kV= only, and never visited the NS network further than Maastricht in regular service.


The trains can run half powered as they do to Maastricht/Roosendaal. However as discussed they have a problem with overhead on bridges. If ATB was present they could drive around the Netherlands easily, except for the named bridge problems.

I suspect that it's for a test for the future SM90 train, likewise a Talent, and before that the Baureihe 627 have done product test before for future trains.


----------



## Theijs

MarcVD said:


> Could you please give more info about this picture please ? This EMU type is 3 kV= only, and never visited the NS network further than Maastricht in regular service.


MarcVD, take the effort to click on the picture. You will find some additional information.


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## Suburbanist

Theijs said:


> MarcVD, take the effort to click on the picture. You will find some additional information.


Just a friendly note: on mobile, it is often difficult to see which photos are clickable or not in absence of a mouse cursor, and which are not, and an overlay with the URL is not always visible.


----------



## da_scotty

Theijs said:


> MarcVD, take the effort to click on the picture. You will find some additional information.


A) bit harsh
B) Het was de bedoeling verder te rijden tot Haarlem (voor proeven in de werkplaats), 
It was planned to continue to Haarlem for workshop testing.

Still doesn't say why it did the trip under it's own power or why they needed to test a Belgian train in Haarlem. So in my view the question is still open.


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## MarcVD

Well, a bit harsh, yes, on a tablet there is no way to tell whether a picture is clickable or not.
However I did now, and understood the following:

The EMU was on its way to Haarlem to undergo some testing ;
It did not travel on its own power (probably because of no ATB) but was hauled by a NS loco ;
But people on board the EMU raised the pantograph to keep the warming heating on...
And when an unwired bridge was reached, the panto, not equipped with a latch, messed with the OHLE
The story does not say whether there were only belgian people on board (probably unaware of the unwired bridges) or also dutch people (who should have known).

It is absolutely normal that this EMU was not equipped with a latch to limit the pantograph extension, as it is 3kV only, and was not expected to travel any further north than Rosendaal and Maastricht on the NS network.


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## Theijs

MarcVD said:


> Well, a bit harsh, yes, on a tablet there is no way to tell whether a picture is clickable or not.


Sorry, I’m not aware of that. I see via the old SSC forum app on my mobile that it’s a picture posted on Flickr, so than you always have a chance to find more details.

So this NMBS EMU 347 of the ‘break’ series was on 4/2/1984 in Leiden.

Using Google to find more information, i found another picture on Flickr, of 10/5/1984 with other reasons to visit NL...

__
https://flic.kr/p/fy4JNV


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## Wilhem275

What's that NS material? A Koploper prototype?


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## AlbertJP

No, the driving trailer of the Benelux before ICR was introduced.


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## MarcVD

Af far as I remember, they were made out of old restaurant cars (plan D) that had been sidelined.
This second generation (*) of benelux trains were made of:

one SNCB HLE 25.5
one SNCB I4 A car
one SNCB I4 AB car
three NS plan W second class cars
the above-mentioned driving trailer
Sometimes an NS postal service van was also included in the consist.

Conoisseurs riding second class knew that, if wanting a comfy ride, they had to board the I4 AB car, that was vastly more comfortable (it was a car for international service, with lateral gangway and separate 6 people compartments) than the plan w ones...

(*) the first generation was a set of 12 EMUs mat. 57, 8 NS and 4 SNCB, which were a derivation of the classical mat. 54 Hondekoppen, adapted for 3 kV in addition to 1500.


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## Wilhem275

Why was it rebuilt with a high cab?


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## da_scotty

I read that it was a mandatory safety feature, I don´t know the exact logic behind it. Probably that the front of the cabin became a crumple zone.

This also kept the custom facilities and bagage facilities below.


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## Slagathor

A German train driver did an oopsie and derailed his locomotive. This isn't ordinarily something I would care about, except he happened to be towing one of NS' new intercity trains. D'oh. 



3737 said:


> Het ziet er naar uit dat de eerste ICNG gesneuveld is voordat die überhaupt nog in dienst is geweest.
> Bij Drieleben in Duitsland is een convooi wat lijkt op 2 ICNG's ontspoort waarbij het eerste stel ernstig beschadigd is geraakt doordat deze over de sleeplok is gegleden.
> 
> Nieuws nog in het Duits.
> *Zug in der Börde entgleist*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bei Dreileben (Landkreis Börde) ist am Freitag ein Zug entgleist. Foto: Tom Wunderlich
> 
> Dreileben l Auf einer Bahnstrecke bei Dreileben im Landkreis Börde ist am Freitagmittag ein Zug entgleist. Ersten Informationen vor Ort zufolge ist eine Güterlok, die einen Personentriebwagen zog, entgleist. Der eine Teil des Zug-Gespanns lag kopfüber auf dem Dach neben den Gleisen. Der Personentriebwagen wurde schwer beschädigt.
> Der verletzte Lokführer der Güterlok konnte sich aus eigener Kraft aus der umgekippten Bahn retten. Ob es weitere Verletzte gibt, ist derzeit noch unklar.
> Die Polizei vor Ort vermutet ersten Angaben nach einen technischen Defekt als Unfallursache. Einsatzkräfte der Feuerwehr sind ebenfalls an der Unfallstelle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link


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## Suburbanist

M-NL said:


> For the most part the EU is a great concept and institution, but introducing the euro and thereby linking all the economies of the participating countries together was, in my opinion, the stupidest thing the EU countries ever did. It robbed the 'poorer' countries of their options to restructure their economy without going through a major depression, but also required 'richer' countries to provide massive support, to not let the euro drop to far. Every country their own currency and the euro as a trade/EU-standard currency next to it, would have worked. At every POS you can then either pay with the local currency or the euro. Lots of popular holiday countries function this way, so why can't the EU?


If the Netherlands had their own currency, the DNB would have been dealing with major headaches to prevent its appreciation. The gigantic foreign account surplus the Netherlands has would push its domestic currency way up, which is bad for exports, which would also exacerbate the labor arbitrage gains to be had, for instance, by having outsourced workers from abroad doing contract-agency work in Netherlands earning foreign wages.

Actually, the Netherlands did have a similar problem in the late 1960s and early 1970s, when gas exports made the value of its currency appreciate, making other sectors that were somehow struggling a bit just collapse (textile industry, for instance).

Devaluation of the Euro due to the "pull-down" effect of Southern economies works wonders in favor of the Dutch economy, including a rapidly reducing public debt (except from the corona crisis, form which the Dutch economy is well positioned to recover fast as households are amassing a lot of extra savings waiting for things to reopen). 

A common currency was a major thing on the Dutch wish list, because it can piggyback on the structural deficits of other parts of the EU, while also benefiting from their inability to just devalue their currency (like Italy use to do several times + high-ish inflation).

Want an example of an export open-economy country with massive currency/monetary issues affecting the local cost of living? Switzerland is there for you. Even the Danish, who are not in the Eurozone but pegged to it, have a much harder time keeping the peg alive. 

End of my off-topic comment here.


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## Slagathor

The Dutch Guilder was pegged to the German Mark anyway, so it wasn't really an independent currency to begin with.

About the crossings: the Netherlands is the most densely populated country in the world as well as the world's second largest agricultural exporter. So there's inevitably going to be a lot of small crossings for heavy farm vehicles. Some of these can be abolished and the rest should definitely be fitted with lights (at the very minimum). Unfortunately, we've been governed by tarmac-loving Christian (CDA) and conservative parties (VVD) for the past twenty years.


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## M-NL

I want to add that in the concept I had in mind the exchange rates between the national currencies and the euro are set by a central agency like the ECB and revised on a regular basis. Of course you want to prevent big differences within the EU, but this way it does allow for differences if the need arises. Now everything is 100% fixed and differences are not possible at all.


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## Slagathor

M-NL said:


> I want to add that in the concept I had in mind the exchange rates between the national currencies and the euro are set by a central agency like the ECB and revised on a regular basis. Of course you want to prevent big differences within the EU, but this way it does allow for differences if the need arises. Now everything is 100% fixed and differences are not possible at all.


The system you propose already existed in the 1990s. It was inferior to what we have now and that part about "when the need arises" sounds lovely, but really sucks in practice.


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## davide84

I can't remove from my head the idea that having unprotected level crossings in 2021 has nothing to do with the Euro.


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## Suburbanist

Can't they build pre-fab steel structures as overpasses, at least on the crossing-rich diesel network in the Groningen and Fryslân?


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## M-NL

For motor vehicles if possible alternative routes need to be found, for pedestrian/bike crossings over or underpasses can be made and the few remaining crossings can be changed into protected crossings or full blown under/overpasses. Unfortunately it seems the Netherlands doesn't like overground solutions, when they stand out in the landscape.
It also seems there are YIMBYs active here: Yes, I DO want this unprotected crossing, because it would otherwise take me to much time to get to where I want to go. Those YIMBYs then, unless forced to, do not cooperate in trying to create an alternative solution.


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## davide84

In Italy there's still a few of them. They are used for agriculture, that's why they are unprotected: they are only needed when two fields on the two sides of the railway have the same owner, it would be too expensive to protect them in the normal way. It's way cheaper to give the farmer some training and a couple of keys to open the gates once a week. Overpasses are often not practicable, in order to be used by farm vehicles they would eat up a lot of farming land ("a lot" from the perspective of the farmer).
These crossings are slowly being removed but they require long negotiations and coordination with the local road planning. AFAIU the fields are there since ages before the railway arrived and the right of crossing is embedded in the zoning. Where they still stand, speed is permenently limited regardless of train color.


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## M-NL

In a few weeks there will be two unprotected crossings less in the Netherlands:
Railway crossing Zenderen closed after accident, only pedestrians are allowed to cross (in Dutch)


> A 21-year-old meal delivery driver was killed on Sunday afternoon at the level crossing. He wanted to deliver an order to a posting NS employee and was caught by a freight train in his van. This week many flowers have been placed at Het Vlier to commemorate the man.


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## 3737

The first SNG with the new yellow front color has been spotted in the workshop at Haarlem.
Doesn't look that bad though as I was expecting.




mistertl said:


> Foto via Facebook.


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## 3737

The Dutch government decided to invest 2,5 bilion euro (dutch) from an investment fund into public transport.
1,5 Bilion euro wil be used to connect Schiphol via metro thus decreasing the load on the railway network around Amsterdam.
The other 1 bilion euro will be used to double Delft - Schiedam to four tracks.
That will mean that Leiden - Dordrecht will finally be four tracks wide over the whole length.


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## Suburbanist

3737 said:


> The Dutch government decided to invest 2,5 bilion euro (dutch) from an investment fund into public transport.
> 1,5 Bilion euro wil be used to connect Schiphol via metro thus decreasing the load on the railway network around Amsterdam.
> The other 1 bilion euro will be used to double Delft - Schiedam to four tracks.
> That will mean that Leiden - Dordrecht will finally be four tracks wide over the whole length.


Sounds great news!


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## yc1000

3737 said:


> The Dutch government decided to invest 2,5 bilion euro (dutch) from an investment fund into public transport.
> 1,5 Bilion euro wil be used to connect Schiphol via metro thus decreasing the load on the railway network around Amsterdam.
> The other 1 bilion euro will be used to double Delft - Schiedam to four tracks.
> That will mean that Leiden - Dordrecht will finally be four tracks wide over the whole length.


The money is reserved, it is still not sure that it will go on, but there is funding at least. Leiden - Dordrecht will be four tracks, but the plan is to create a S-bahn like rail system between Den Haag Centraal and Dordrecht. This means that the two western tracks will be dedicated to the so-called CitySprinter. The other two eastern tracks will be dedicated Intercity lines, with even higher frequencies than today (6x/h, from December 2021 8x/h).


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## Suburbanist

Would RandstadRail take over the CitySprinter project, or don't they want to expand even further?


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## yc1000

Suburbanist said:


> Would RandstadRail take over the CitySprinter project, or don't they want to expand even further?


It will most likely be a train line (not a metro line like Randstadrail), I think NS will operate this line, but as the line will only be used by CitySprinter, they could issue a tender to award the winner to operate this line.


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## mistertl

The CitySprinter is part of the NS plan for a S-Bahn-like network, so yes, NS is planning on operating the line themselves. This will be done with the specially modified SNG-trains, from which the first is already being tested at the moment.
The first line (although not officially branded CitySprinter) is the AirportSprinter that will be running from December 2023. Additional lines include Weesp - Amsterdam - Haarlem and the The Hague - Dordrecht line. Those latter plans require infrastructural changes like the Amsterdam redesign and the above mentioned track doubling between Delft and Schiedam (and some more changes between Rotterdam and Dordrecht, including new stations).
Will it actually happen that way? I guess only time will tell.


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## Suburbanist

This will make the tunnels in Rotterdam even more of a bottleneck and chokepoint. 

Missed opportunity to build an underground North-South alignment of the high speed line across Rotterdam with a new tunnel for its tracks.


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## Klaasje

These plans require rerouting the freight trains Kijhoek-Bentheim. Currently these trains use loads of capacity in these tunnels since a freight train requires the tunnel track to be clear in front and rear of te train until it has left the tunnel. After rerouting these freight trains there is plenty of capacity available for these plans.

The route of these trains is Kijfhoek-Rotterdam Centraal-Woerden-Breukelen-Amsterdam Bijlmer ArenA-Diemen zuid-Amersfoort-Bad Bentheim. By using the Betuweroute till either Elst or Zevenaar and a route from there to Bentheim loads of capacity become available in the Randstad as a whole and on Amersfoort-Deventer.


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## Slagathor

^^ Another way to relieve pressure on Kijfhoek is by building a short connection between the Zeeland line and the freight railways of the port of Antwerp right here, a stretch of less than 10km.

Currently, freight trains from Vlissingen have to go to Kijfhoek, change locs, and then go South to Antwerp.


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## K_

Slagathor said:


> Currently, freight trains from Vlissingen have to go to Kijfhoek, change locs, and then go South to Antwerp.


Why don't they reverse in Roosendaal?


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## M-NL

K_ said:


> Why don't they reverse in Roosendaal?


Because trains from Sloehaven are very likely to carry dangerous goods and Roosendaal is in the middle of the city.

@Slagathor: Exactly. Connecting 127a and L11 together along the A4 only takes a little over 7km.
It probably only needs to be single track and even at just 40 km/h it will still only take 15 minutes max to reach Belgium. It doesn't even have to be electrified as most freight trains coming from Sloehaven are likely diesel drawn anyway and electrification in Belgium only starts a little bit south of Berendrecht.








Screenshot from OpenRailwayMap


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## Turf

M-NL said:


> Because trains from Sloehaven are very likely to carry dangerous goods and Roosendaal is in the middle of the city.
> 
> @Slagathor: Exactly. Connecting 127a and L11 together along the A4 only takes a little over 7km.
> It probably only needs to be single track and even at just 40 km/h it will still only take 15 minutes max to reach Belgium. It doesn't even have to be electrified as most freight trains coming from Sloehaven are likely diesel drawn anyway and electrification in Belgium only starts a little bit south of Berendrecht.
> View attachment 1346486
> 
> Screenshot from OpenRailwayMap


Edit: changed post to English.

Another option would be to connect from the western side of the canals. From the Rilland high voltage station, over the canal with a low bridge connecting somewhere around DB bundel BASF.


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## 3737

Some livery changes.
SNG with it's new yellow nose due to safety.








Link

Also a VIRMm-2/3 was spotted in what looks like the final NS flow livery, not a big fan of it though...











ufopiloot said:


> Hier een beter overzicht. Wat een ongeordende teringzooi! Als geheel komt het beter uit de verf dan gevreesd maar het gebrek aan afwerking op de kop is echt een grote min hier. Als ik het goed zie gaan de strepen van de 1e klas ook dwars door het NS-logo lopen, dat al verminderd zichtbaar is omdat ze het er onhandig groot op hebben gezet. 25% kleiner en het was geen probleem geweest. Wat een afgang.
> View attachment 1494410
> 
> 
> Kleine positieve noot: blauwe tussendeuren, zoals verwacht. Valt dus ook niet tegen, als 1 van de weinige voor de hand liggende keuzes op dit ontwerp.


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## Wilhem275

Poor VIRM... they couldn't even complete in blue the area right under its windshield.

The SNG is quite nice though


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## robbo2k

Second Life DM90 in Poland. First DMU is paint


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## Adilox

I have a question concerning the Den Haag - Rotterdam line. From what I found out there is currently 4-tracking being performed between Delft and Delft Campus. When is it supposed to finish? Also is there a timeline for 4-tracking the rest of the corridor to Schiedam and will it cause any disruptions to the rail service?


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## AlbertJP

Four-tracking Rijswijk-Delft is in progress; I believe all the way to Schiedam was planned, but can't find the details on Delft-Schiedam. It is not yet quite clear to me what will happen on the route Schiedam-Rotterdam, as the current services use two flyovers to reach platforms 6-9 at Rotterdam Central (2-4 are used by southbound high speed / international services.) I think the four-tracked line will end just short of there.

Edit: ProRail has an end date of 2024 on their website, for Rijswijk-Delft Campus and some modifications to Schiedam Centrum station to bring disused platforms back into use, but no four-tracking of Delft-Schiedam is mentioned there.


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## luka23

There is a sum of €1bln reserved from a growth fund for the 4-tracking of Delft - Schiedam, but it is out of the 2024 project scope.


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## Slagathor

It should be noted that 4-tracking Delft-Schiedam is a lot less urgent than 4-tracking Rijswijk-Delft.

Rijswijk-Delft features 2 commuter train stations (Rijswijk and Delft Campus) where commuter trains slow down intercity trains. If a commuter train at Delft Campus is delayed, an intercity train at Delft will have to wait for it to leave because it can't get past. This is an obvious chokepoint in the network.

Four-tracking Rijswijk-Delft also makes it possible for some intercity trains to skip Delft. I believe the IC between The Hague and Eindhoven used to skip Delft, as did the IC Amsterdam to Vlissingen. Right now, that would be hard (if not impossible) to orchestrate.

The section between Delft and Schiedam, however, doesn't have any stations and since all trains between Delft Campus and Schiedam travel at 140km/h, there's no bottleneck that needs to be urgently removed.


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## AlbertJP

The justification given by ProRail for bringing platforms 1 & 2 back at Schiedam back into use without a full four-tracking is that trains to Amsterdam will continue to be able to call there. Alternating platforms at Schiedam would shorten the follow-up times on the route.


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## mistertl

And they are currently optimizing and renewing the signals between Delft Zuid and Schiedam. I believe they will actually do some tests next weekend with the new interlocking system, with the renewal being finished by the end of this year.

Edit: and just as I posted this, ProRail themselves posted a news article about it (in Dutch): Weekendwerk in Rijswijk en Delft


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## mistertl

Edit: something went wrong with posting. This post can be removed. Was a duplicate with the previous post.


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## Adilox

mistertl said:


> And they are currently optimizing and renewing the signals between Delft Zuid and Schiedam. I believe they will actually do some tests next weekend, with the optimization being finished by the end of this year.


Does it mean that barring COVID lockdowns there may be a partial increase in frequency of train operations starting next year or is it something that will take place only after the entire project is complete?


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## mistertl

There will be a small frequency increase in intercity services by the end of this year when the Rotterdam - Schiphol - Arnhem (RoSA shuttle) will start to operate, which will take the number of Intercity services from 6 to 8 intercity services per hour per direction.
From the end of this year there will also be an increase in frequency from 4 to 6 trains sprinter/all station trains per hour already between Dordrecht and Rotterdam, but the sprinter trains can't continue beyond Rotterdam due to the current capacity problems. Further extension of that frequency increase will have to wait until the Rijswijk - Delft Campus track doubling has been completed in 2024.


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## robbo2k

DM90 in Poland. First ride.

They will probably run from December 2022 for PKP Intercity. It is planned to add a ramp, new air conditioning of the passenger space and stairs for low platforms.
Additionally, refreshment of 2nd class seats and new arrangement of 1st class.


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## da_scotty

Do you have interior pictures?


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## robbo2k

There is still a project for the interior. There will be 1st class, a wheelchair space and a ramp. The train will be fully air-conditioned and there will be steps outside for low platforms.


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## M-NL

What are the platform heights on the routes this train is going to be used on? The DM'90 was originally designed for 840mm ATOR platforms.


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## robbo2k

Sanok and *Düwag Wadloper* 300mm?


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## 3737

The TEE DE4 which has been rusting away at the Dijksgracht in Amsterdam has been sold to the Dutch transport museum in Nieuw-Vennep.
For now it will be restored as a static object but I think the goal is still to rebuild the diesel car in the future.
The DE4 was first transported to the Zaanstraat maintenance yard with a mat64 functioning as a breakvan.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=552899629394202



At the Zaanstraat it was loaded on to a trailer and transported on the road to the museum.
Also it went by the HKS scrapyard where a lot of trains are scrapped, luckily the DE4 is spared of such a fate.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3011609239121495


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## [email protected]




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## 3737




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## 3737

With the new schedule next week, DDZ wil return back into service after a year of absence due to vibrations.
They've found a solution for this problem.
With DDZ returning, they can start reshuffling SNG and SLT back into the sprinter service replacing SGMm.
This will be the last week for SGMm into normal service, after sunday they're fased out.

The 2995 has gotten stickers saying: After 46 years I'm done sprinting.


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## Wilhem275

Love the choir sound 

Such a long career is probably also due to the project being on point from the beginning as a suburban material. Quite innovative under certain aspects.


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## Slagathor

These were probably the least nationally iconic of all the trains. If you don't live in the Randstad, you may have never travelled on these because they didn't usually venture into the provinces (where locals were condemned to these).


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## M-NL

They have run the Enschede - Apeldoorn Sprinter service for at least 10 years and they replaced Plan V on several lines in Gelderland, Brabant and Limburg, until FLIRT3 and SNG became available or the operator changed. But that only happened in the last 15 years or so, before that they were indeed pretty much limited to the Randstad, mostly because of their limited top speed of 125 km/h, that was reduced even further to 120 km/h when they upgraded the traction equipment (I always wonder why they didn't go for an 'upgrade' to 130 km/h).


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## AlbertJP

Above 125 km/h the ATB panel would need to be expanded with an additional light to distinguish between 125 km/h and 140 km/h speed limits. Both speed limits trigger the "green" light on SGM. I think this would complicate certification of a speed upgrade, and wouldn't be worth it for 5 more km/h.

The DC traction motors might also be a limiting factor, I don't know how far you can take those considering the upgraded traction equipment involved higher acceleration.


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## M-NL

Why an additional light? Any speed limit between 81 km/h and 130 km/h uses the same 120 pulse track code. Both code120 and code96 trigger the same green light and that doesn't change. The only change needed to ATB is moving the light from 125 km/h to 130 km/h and adjusting the Vmax. 
The only question is indeed if the final drive ratio and running gear would be able to handle sustained driving at 130 km/h, given that the SGM already makes a loud roaring sound from the motors at 125 km/h. With the SGMm rebuild they needed to rebuild the bogies and axles anyway, so they could have also changed the final drive ratio to lower motor rpm at the same time. Or would the running gear have run into the same problem DDZ did?


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## AlbertJP

I stand corrected. I was under the impression that code 120 was for 125 km/h rather than 130.

I think that any other scenario would cause increased wear on the traction motors. DC traction motors are not as durable as the synchronous AC ones used in the 1600-1800 / DDZ / VIRM and everything after those. They are already being stressed more due to the new traction equipment. This is a trade-off between acceleration and maximum speed, and anywhere in the Randstad, acceleration is the most important of the two.


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## M-NL

AlbertJP said:


> I stand corrected. I was under the impression that code 120 was for 125 km/h rather than 130.


Actually sources claim that in the first designs code 120 was indeed meant for 125 km/h, but during testing it was decided to change that to 130 km/h.


AlbertJP said:


> I think that any other scenario would cause increased wear on the traction motors. DC traction motors are not as durable as the synchronous AC ones used in the 1600-1800 / DDZ / VIRM and everything after those. They are already being stressed more due to the new traction equipment. This is a trade-off between acceleration and maximum speed, and anywhere in the Randstad, acceleration is the most important of the two.


When you change the gearing ratio by 4% motor rpm could remain the same, so wear on the motors itself shouldn't have gotten that much worse. I doubt that a 4% change in gearing would result in a 4% reduction of acceleration. I also don't think DC motors (and single phase AC motors as well) are less durable perse, they just need more maintenance, because they have brushes, which 3 phase AC motors don't (BTW: 1600/1800 are driven by 2 chopper controlled DC motors). Because the new traction equipment of SGM consists of choppers instead of the old resistor based control, I would actually expect that would result in a stress reduction, because choppers operate much smoother then the switching of resistors, which produces shocks in the drive train during switching that can clearly be felt while riding such a train.
Because the SGM was initially designed as a 2 car set, the later addition of the unpowered intermediate car didn't do acceleration any favors. So if acceleration had been that important, they should have stuck with the initial 2 car sets only. That would have meant no toilets though. No problem on the short Zoetermeerlijn, but on a longer service I would consider a toilet essential. They unfortunately made the mistake to omit the toilet with the SLT, requiring an expensive retrofit.


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## Klausenburg

What will come for the railways with the new coalition government ? I read about the new line Lelystad - Groningen, but I suppose there are other things planned too...


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## Suburbanist

Klausenburg said:


> What will come for the railways with the new coalition government ? I read about the new line Lelystad - Groningen, but I suppose there are other things planned too...


So they are resurrecting the Zuiderzeelin, after giving all the billions for the affected provinces to build roads in lieu of the canceled railway project?


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## AlbertJP

There are a number of factors at play there. The northern provinces took the lead and presented the line as a way to make new housing in the north possible, and some people still feel that the north needs some more compensation for the earthquake damage caused by natural gas extraction in the province of Groningen.

I think the public perception has also changed quite a bit in the past few years. In 2007, people had just had bad experiences with new railways due to delays in the construction of the HSL and Betuweroute, but these have gone to the background as both lines are seeing a lot of use nowadays and the Hanzelijn (Lelystad-Zwolle) opened on time in the meantime. The Nedersaksenlijn Emmen-Veendam (as part of a Groningen-Twente route) and an upgrade of Zwolle-Enschede with a possible extension to Münster have also been recently floated.

I think there is some reorientation in progress regarding the areas away from the Randstad, with people seeing opportunities for growth there.


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## Suburbanist

Emmen - Veendam looks a good idea.

I also wonder about that hypothetical Breda - Gorichem - Utrecht line, if it will ever see something more concrete on the planning side.


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## yc1000

Suburbanist said:


> Emmen - Veendam looks a good idea.
> 
> I also wonder about that hypothetical Breda - Gorichem - Utrecht line, if it will ever see something more concrete on the planning side.


There is no real lobby for a Breda - Utrecht line, but I think it can reduce the car traffic on the A27 road.


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## Wilhem275

Such a link may be realized by extending current IC services Utrecht - Rottedam to Breda via HSL.

Not as fast as direct line, but still an interesting direct link. Probably too much Rotterdam - Breda stuff on the HSl, though.


I just found on Reddit the 2022 Spoorkaart, but I don't understand if it's official (can't find it published by NS):


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/comments/rehr9k

Direct link:


https://i.redd.it/3hku2w2dp1581.png




Weirdest thing is the new 3200 series IC, basically touring the whole Randstad like the late night service  clearly they joined together a Rotterdam - Schiphol and a Schiphol - Arnhem.


----------



## da_scotty

Not weirder then the existing Dordrecht-Venlo train or the former sunday Vlissingen-Groningen services.


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## Wilhem275

Let me explain better: that service is weird not in being unusually long, but in taking a very indirect route to connect main cities.
Clearly from Rottedam and Den Haag there are more convenient solutions to Utrecht.

There are other indirect routes but I can reckon that happening just with Sprinters (which is justified by other local reasons).

As has been in recent past, this 3200 could also be a temporary solution to bridge two services which would need more capacity to run separately.
It could easily be split into a Schiphol - Arnhem and a Rotterdam - Lelystad once the 10-minutes concept will be extendend that way (maybe with extra tracks at Zuid and Weesp, just guessing).


Also, I'm wondering if at a certain point they'll un-braiden the 10-min IC concept between Amsterdam and Utrecht; like, making two fixed trunks Zuid - Arnhem and Centraal - Eindhoven. Right now they're still mixed up, which is kind of an anomaly in the super streamlining NS is applying.


----------



## Attus

Can someone explain me, what happens at 1:40 and on?


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## M-NL

Did you notice that after the fire truck arrived at the barriers there is a cut in the video at 1:57? A train has probably passed just before the crossing barriers start opening, but just before they are completely up again another train approaches from the other side so they start closing again. That's not uncommon. What happens next, the fire truck and the cyclist passing the crossing with active lights and the barriers closing again, is technically illegal. If something were to happen while on the crossing you have pretty much no time to evacuate before the train arrives (the firemen will likely already be in full gear at this moment!). And I don't have to tell you who 'wins' when a train at speed and a stationary fire truck meet on a railway crossing. You should always wait for the lights to extinguish before starting to cross. Maybe people from NS or Prorail should pay the Woudenberg fire department a visit, because they should know better then to do this and give a bad example. In fact NS has a special program on this subject, intended for elementary and secondary school students on the dangers on and around railways, NS Luisteris, that has also made appearances at police and fire department demos.


----------



## AlbertJP

3737 said:


> The ICNG-B for services towards Brussels has been certified according to IRJ


IRJ is a bit premature here. The certification tests have been completed and the necessary documentation has been submitted to the authorities. (The same was done in the Netherlands some months ago.) Certification is still pending in either country.


----------



## Khaul

Quick question: what was the fastest travel time between Amsterdam and Rotterdam before the opening of the HSL? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Suburbanist

Khaul said:


> Quick question: what was the fastest travel time between Amsterdam and Rotterdam before the opening of the HSL?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


It was just around 1h10 on most services I guess. A bit less on the IC to Belgium which skipped Leiden and Delft.


----------



## M-NL




----------



## Suburbanist

M-NL said:


> View attachment 3214250


These trains go via Haarlem, though, don't they?


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## Slagathor

They all do. If you want to go through Schiphol, you need to depart from Amsterdam Zuid.


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## Suburbanist

Slagathor said:


> They all do. If you want to go through Schiphol, you need to depart from Amsterdam Zuid.


Yes, but before HSL Zuid trains from Amsterdam to Rotterdam traveled via Schiphol.


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## zeeuwinthecity

M-NL said:


> View attachment 3214250


This is not a fair comparison. That train goes via Haarlem, but before the HSL opened there was a faster route through Schiphol. It also makes a lot more stops.


----------



## mistertl

Going via Schiphol or Haarlem doesn't make a real difference in time. Maybe a few minutes, but nothing more.


----------



## Slagathor

Suburbanist said:


> Yes, but before HSL Zuid trains from Amsterdam to Rotterdam traveled via Schiphol.


Yes, the old Vlissingen train ran the following route:

Amsterdam Centraal
Schiphol
Leiden Centraal
Den Haag HS
Rotterdam Centraal
Dordrecht
Roosendaal
Bergen op Zoom
Kruiningen-Yerseke
Goes
Middelburg
Vlissingen Souburg
Vlissingen

This service ran from at least the 1990s (that I can remember) until the high speed railway line was completed and stuff started to get moved around.

I took this train a lot when I first started my career (I was living in Middelburg but had a job in Den Haag) for a few years. Back then, there was still a difference between intercity trains and sneltreinen. Sneltreinen stopped in places like Delft and Schiedam, but intercity trains did not. The Vlissingen train was officially an IC.

This train took 1:03 to travel from Amsterdam Centraal to Rotterdam Centraal. Source: old NS schedule from treinreiziger.nl.


----------



## Suburbanist

mistertl said:


> Going via Schiphol or Haarlem doesn't make a real difference in time. Maybe a few minutes, but nothing more.


That is a matter or bad scheduling, right? Otherwise, the tracks between Sloterdjk and Leiden are faster than the loop through Haalerm.


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## AlbertJP

The line through Schiphol is just 3 km shorter (44 instead of 47 km via Haarlem), and has a real bottleneck at the six-platform station at Schiphol, as well as more 80 km/h sections.


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## Slagathor

Yeah, it's quite a long-winded (and slow) trip from Schiphol to Centraal via Lelylaan and Sloterdijk. 

This morning I was in Amsterdam for business so I took the IC from The Hague via Leiden and Schiphol to Zuid. Then the Noord-Zuidlijn into the city. It was really fast and the transfer at Zuid is very convenient.


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## zeeuwinthecity

Interestingly, before the Schiphollijn was completed the fastest route was not through Den Haag and Leiden but through Woerden and Breukelen. The route is now only served by a Sprinter with 14 intermediate stops that takes 1:17 to cover the distance. I wonder what the travel time on an intercity on this trajectory would be today.


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## 3737

zeeuwinthecity said:


> Interestingly, before the Schiphollijn was completed the fastest route was not through Den Haag and Leiden but through Woerden and Breukelen. The route is now only served by a Sprinter with 14 intermediate stops that takes 1:17 to cover the distance. I wonder what the travel time on an intercity on this trajectory would be today.


The reason lies in the old days before the Dutch railways (NS).
The "oude lijn" (old line) between Amsterdam and Rotterdam has been build by the Hollandsche IJzeren Spoorweg-Maatschappij (HIJSM).
Their big competitor the Nederlandsche Rhijnspoorweg-Maatschappij (NRS) had railway lines to Amsterdam - Utrecht and Rotterdam - Utrecht.
To compete with the HIJSM the NRS build a small connecting line between Breukelen and Harmelen to compete between Amsterdam - Rotterdam in 1869 called the "nieuwe lijn" (new line). 
When in 1939 the competitors where fused into the Dutch railways (NS) they preferred the old line over the new line and even cancel passenger trains over the new line until 1950 when it came back as a now known sprinter service.
Funny enough the sprinter service is still faster between sprinter stations Amsterdam Holendrecht and Rotterdam Alexander than using the IC direct according to wikipedia altough the new line is now mostly used for goods traffic to bypass the crowded old line.


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## 3737

Last weekend ICNG was introduced to the public.






When the ICNG will enter service is unknown due to the shortage of materials and also due to the shortage of personal at the moment.


----------



## mistertl

The ICNG will enter service before the end of this year, and that there is no exact date yet has nothing to do with shortage of materials/shortage of personnel, but with the whole process of testing.
If the last testing phase goes smoothly, it might be a bit earlier, but if there are still issues found that need to be fixed before the trains enter service, it might be a bit longer.


----------



## 3737

The NS has announced today that they started a RFI (request for information) for new sprinter trains.
The NS expect that around 2030 the amount of commuters will increase a lot so they've started to look to strengthen the sprinter fleet.

Some interesting notes:
Max speed of 160 km/h
Between 8000 to 18000 seats, this needs to be determined in the next phase.
The train needs to be ready at the end of 2027.
The NS will look into using the new sprinters also for some Intercity services (probably a higher comfort than the ones used now).
An extra order can be placed later for cross border trains to Germany and/or Belgium.

Link (In Dutch)


----------



## 3737

NS put the RFI on tenderned.
NS is looking for a sprinter trains with the same length as both SLT types.

Some of the info:

*II.2.4) Description of the procurement:*
(nature and quantity of works, supplies or services or indication of needs and requirements)

Train Set Characteristics of base order
The base order foresees, besides the other deliverables, the supply of Train Sets with a total seating volume between approximately 8.000 and 18.000 seats.
Operational service of the Train Sets on the Dutch Railway Network is foreseen to start in the second half of 2027. Meaning Acceptance for the first Train Sets is foreseen to take place in 2026.
The foreseen characteristics for the base order Train Sets are, as an indication, listed below. The final characteristics will be defined in the Award Guidelines.

General vehicle architecture characteristics:

• The Train Set complies with applicable standards including but not limited to European and Dutch legislation;
• The Train Set is an articulated electrical multiple unit with wide gangways without steps to pass the gangways;
• The Train Set has a driver's cab on both ends, and each driver’s cab has an external driver’s cab side door on both sides;
• The Train Set has two Train Set variants differing in length, a long Train Set with a length of approximately 107,5 m and a shorter Train Set variant of approximately 2/3 of the length of the long Train Set;
• The Train Set incorporates technology which allows it to be easily upgraded with the latest digital developments.

General external interface characteristics:

• The Train Set is suitable for the operation on the Dutch Railway Network;
• The Train Set has a service speed of 160 km/h;
• The Train Set is suitable for the 1500 V DC power supply on the Dutch Railway Network;
• The Train Set is suitable for the CCS-systems ERTMS and ATB;
• The Train Set complies with the kinematic reference gauge G2 and for lower parts GI2;
• The Train set has an axle load category C2_500 (<20 t at 500 kg/m2)
• The Train Set offers level access from a platform height of 760 mm to flat passenger entry vestibules.

Passenger comfort and design characteristics:

• The Train Set has an interior layout, door positions and door width offering fast access and egress;
• The Train Set has an interior and exterior aesthetic design in accordance with the NS brand design guidelines;
• The Train Set appeals to passengers.

Optional:

• As an option, the Train Sets might consider a bicurrent Train Set suitable for a power supply of 1500 V DC and 3000 V DC;
• Any other (technical) option(s) will be mentioned in the Award Guidelines

Possible additional orders

Possible additional orders are foreseen for the supply of Train sets with a total seating volume of approximately 50.000 seats to be ordered until 2036. The seating volume of 50.000 seats is additional to the base order seating volume. This is mainly depending on passenger growth and developments with regard to the transport concession between NS and the Ministry of Infrastructure and Water Management

The possible additional orders may consist of several batches with a different number of cars per batch and with different delivery rates.

The possible additional orders may consist of Train Set variants based on the same product platform as the base order with characteristics as described in the section II.2.11) Information about options.

*II.2.11) Information about options*
Options: yes

Description of options:

As mentioned under:


Short general description of the Contract under "D": "addenda on the purchase agreement for possible additional orders of Train Sets and/or Train Set variants AND Modifications on one or more Train Sets.
Train Set Characteristics of base order under "Optional": "As an option, the Train Sets might consider a bicurrent Train Set suitable for a power supply of 1500 V DC and 3000 V DC" AND "Any other (technical) option(s) will be mentioned in the Award Guidelines".
Possible Additional Orders: "a total seating volume of approximately 50.000 seats to be ordered until 2036."

The possible additional orders may consist of several batches with a different number of Cars per batch and with different delivery rates.
The possible additional orders may consist of Train Set variants based on the same product platform as the base order with characteristics as follows:

1) Train Sets with base order characteristics and including additional development and innovations in the field of, for instance, train operation, interior, IT;
2) Train Sets of different lengths, of a different number of Cars and/or different number of seats and/or different seat configuration;
3) Train Sets for cross border variants (meaning suitable for operation in the Netherlands and (an)other countries), such as Belgium and/or Germany.

Future developments and/or changes and/or enhancements made by the Supplier in or to the product platform as offered to NS in its Tender, may at NS request be included in Train Sets to be delivered on basis of additional orders placed by NS.


----------



## bifhihher

👆
So no upgrade to 25kV or 3kV, all optional. I thought dutch railways were investigating for future proofing and lowering waste at that low voltage?


----------



## NCT

All sounds eminently sensible to me. At the end of the day accurate trip recording means accurate capacity allocation.


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## Attus

However, the logic is completely different from the German one (not necesserily worse, but very different) so that German people may find it weird.


----------



## Wilhem275

Still, integration across vectors based on fixed stations (rail+metro) would do pretty much no harm to usage data, given the very limited number of possible routings.
There aren't many freaks like me wishing to take the longest route through the network...

There are cases of possible parallel routes, but they're mostly illogical, and even then they might be limited applying the same rule already in place within rail services (only routes allowed by the timetable planner).


----------



## Slagathor

Attus said:


> However, the logic is completely different from the German one (not necesserily worse, but very different) so that German people may find it weird.


Fair enough but we don't tend to govern our country based on what others may think.


----------



## Henk Angenent

Wilhem275 said:


> Still no sign of better Check-in continuity across vectors? At least integrating all rail services + metros in a single check-in procedure would be a step forward.





Wilhem275 said:


> Still, integration across vectors based on fixed stations (rail+metro) would do pretty much no harm to usage data, given the very limited number of possible routings.
> There aren't many freaks like me wishing to take the longest route through the network...
> 
> There are cases of possible parallel routes, but they're mostly illogical, and even then they might be limited applying the same rule already in place within rail services (only routes allowed by the timetable planner).


If you want to integrate travel across various concessions into a single check-in and check-out journey, you need to set up an independent authority to allocate the correct fare payments to the various concession holders. The individual concession holders are not allowed to do this, because that would give them sensitive information about other concessions. For this reason, the Dutch consumer and market authority ACM only allowed a time-limited pilot on a single line with single check-in and check-out in 2016: Brief aan NS en Connexxion over proef eenmaal in- en uitchecken op ‘Valleilijn’ | ACM.nl

In 2019, a cost-benefit analysis was conducted which concluded that a single check-in and check-out system would have a benefit of € 14.1 million in 15 years, due to saved travel time and fewer costs due to check-in/check-out mistakes. The costs over those 15 years amounted to € 104 million: developing and implementing the system would cost € 22 million, and maintaining the system and dividing the payments across the various concession holders would cost € 7 million per year. The conclusion was thus that the benefits of such a system did not outweigh the costs, and that efforts would concentrate on other means to reduce mistakes by passengers: Brief regering: Vervolgaanpak overstapproblematiek OV-chipkaart


----------



## Slagathor

I would like card readers at bus and tram stops rather than on the vehicle. I think that would reduce the amount of time it takes passengers to (dis)embark and it would reduce missed check-outs as well, as people have a chance to walk back to the stop even if they forget. 

I realize this creates other problems, though (like vandalism). So some trials are probably warranted. Maybe do a trial in The Hague (we've got some pretty rough neighborhoods here) and see how it goes.


----------



## yc1000

Slagathor said:


> I would like card readers at bus and tram stops rather than on the vehicle. I think that would reduce the amount of time it takes passengers to (dis)embark and it would reduce missed check-outs as well, as people have a chance to walk back to the stop even if they forget.
> 
> I realize this creates other problems, though (like vandalism). So some trials are probably warranted. Maybe do a trial in The Hague (we've got some pretty rough neighborhoods here) and see how it goes.


Well, Utrecht has card readers on the tram platform. But I think this is because the tram is categorised as light rail/sneltram.


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## M-NL

There are a lot more bus stops than there are buses, and buses return to the depot at the end of the day, so it makes sense to put the card reader on the bus. Also, a lot of bus stops are nothing more than a pole with a sign and the timetable next to the road. A card reader needs power and a data connection. However, for city buses and trams you could just as well put the card reader at the stop, but for city buses and regional buses at the same bus stop, it would be very confusing, that you need to check in at the stop for one, and in the bus for the other.


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## 3737

Some news from the last month.
The goverment will invest 7,5 billion euro in the Dutch infrastructure the comming years to make new residential areas better connected.
4 billion will go to the railways mostly to strengthen the infrastructure and to make transit between different public transport options better at train stations.
This will then boost the increase of housing aound these stations which is needed in the Netherlands.

Randstad
1,5 Billion will go to the Oude lijn/Old line between Leiden and Dordrecht.
Some of the train stations will be getting extra bicylce parking and new bus stations and/or a new hall.
Between Delft and Schiedam it will be expanded to 4 tracks making it finally 4 track wide over the whole length.
The citysprinter concept (kind of a SBahn) will then start between Den Haag and Dordrecht first with 6 trains per hour but the ambition is 12 trains in 2040.
5 new citysprinter stations will be opened, (1 Rijswijk Buiten, 2 Schiedam Kethel, 3 Rotterdam van Nelle, 4 Rotterdam stadionpark (now only used during footbalgames of Feyenoord and events), 5 Dordrecht Leerpark).
(Infographic in Dutch)









Amsterdam
The north south metroline will be lengthened to (Schiphol airport) Hoofddorp.
This will the decrease the amount of sprinters to Schiphol airport making more room for intercities and international trains.
The A10 highway will be put underground and Amsterdam South station will be transformed into a international trainstation.










Eindhoven
The station will be transformed into a new public transport hub with new (underground) buslanes and busstation to Brainport









A part of the money will be used for smaller projects mostly to increase capacity of stations around the Netherlands and thus increase housing capacity
All these projects are stilll under scruteneering due to the nitrogen deposit problems so altough there is money it is still not shure if some of these will proceed or maybe with delays.

In other smaller news.
Prorail has started with the introduction of the next gen signalling.
The new signal is a lot smaller then the older ones, it only uses one lamp to display green, yellow and orange making more room for the speed indicator above.
It can also change its intensity which makes the signal better vissible during fog or sunset.
The first 6 signals have been placed around Meteren and will be used to check the feedback from traindrivers.
In 2023 they'll slowly start to replace the older signals.


----------



## Suburbanist

Interesting projects.

In a broader sense, the Netherlands need a new VINEX-style housing plan, entirely focused on locations around rail lines. Some "park-and-ride" stations offer plenty of opportunities for high-rise clusters of residences and offices.

Lage Zwaule comes to mind as a prime location for >100m high residential towers, and a brand new station and 80.000 people leaving within 2km walking/cycling distance.


----------



## Suburbanist

Still a pity there have been no talks of improvement on the Roermond-Eindhoven stretch, or no new info on that possible new line Utrecht-Breda over the rivers.


----------



## yc1000

Suburbanist said:


> Interesting projects.
> 
> In a broader sense, the Netherlands need a new VINEX-style housing plan, entirely focused on locations around rail lines. Some "park-and-ride" stations offer plenty of opportunities for high-rise clusters of residences and offices.
> 
> Lage Zwaule comes to mind as a prime location for >100m high residential towers, and a brand new station and 80.000 people leaving within 2km walking/cycling distance.


If you want to create Chinese ghost cities you should do that. It is better to build around and in current cities, as there is little incentive to move to a place that is not lively.


----------



## Suburbanist

yc1000 said:


> If you want to create Chinese ghost cities you should do that. It is better to build around and in current cities, as there is little incentive to move to a place that is not lively.


80.000 people would make Lage Zwaluwe very lively, would not it? Especially if many projects are geared to the 25-40 y.o. crowd currently shut out of the housing market.


----------



## steple

3737 said:


> In other smaller news.
> Prorail has started with the introduction of the next gen signalling.
> The new signal is a lot smaller then the older ones, it only uses one lamp to display green, yellow and orange making more room for the speed indicator above.


How does it work?

Yellow + number: announcing the indicated speed?
Green + number: execute the indicated speed?


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## AlbertJP

Yes, and the green is flickering in that case to make sure the driver doesn't pass at full speed by accident if they oversee the number or it failed to display.

Aspects are the same as in the current system, just the signal design is new and all three colours are combined in one light with multiple LEDs.


----------



## Wilhem275

I love this signalling for its simplicity and effectiveness.

The only aspect which doesn't convince me 100% is a sequence of speed reductions. Like, when you have signal A protecting an 80 km/h point and the following signal B protecting a 60 km/h point.
IIRC, the distant signal will show yellow+8. Signal A should then show blinking green+8, but since it must also act as a distant signal for signal B, it will then show yellow+6.
The information about the speed of the first point is then not repeated, it relies entirely on reading it once from the distant signal. It's a bit of a grey area for me.


----------



## mistertl

As a driver, I can say that's a pretty common occurrence to get one speed restriction after another. Or even overlapping speed restrictions with a combination of signals and signs. It's not an issue.
A nice example might be this video from 12 minutes and 55 seconds. It's a cab ride entering Schiphol Airport. The train has to slow down to 80 km/h, and then half-way through that slow down there's another speed restriction to 40 km/h because the signal at the end of the platform is at danger:





(From 12m55s if the automatic starting time doesn't work)


----------



## AlbertJP

Wilhem275 said:


> IIRC, the distant signal will show yellow+8. Signal A should then show blinking green+8, but since it must also act as a distant signal for signal B, it will then show yellow+6.
> The information about the speed of the first point is then not repeated, it relies entirely on reading it once from the distant signal. It's a bit of a grey area for me.


This is true indeed, the second one will be yellow+6. The same happens with the new Swiss N signals which can also show only one speed. Germany solved this by allowing two theatre boxes on Ks signals, one above it with white numbers and one below it with yellow numbers (although large parts of Germany are still using H/V signals where the main and distant signal are separated anyway.)


----------



## K_

Henk Angenent said:


> If you want to integrate travel across various concessions into a single check-in and check-out journey, you need to set up an independent authority to allocate the correct fare payments to the various concession holders.


Then why not just do that?

The Dutch network has a lot of short connections. When I last travelled to Harlingen I could not even find the Chipcard reader in time to check out and in again for the next leg in the short time available for the transfer. I was travelling on a normal ticket then so I did not bother in the end. 




3737 said:


> Prorail has started with the introduction of the next gen signalling.
> The new signal is a lot smaller then the older ones, it only uses one lamp to display green, yellow and orange making more room for the speed indicator above.


Interesting. SBB also developed a new generation of signals, also more compact. However after rolling them out on a few sections they have stopped that, and have decided to just install ETCS L2 wherever a stretch is due for a signaling updated. So in stead of being modernized signals are just disappearing.


----------



## Slagathor

K_ said:


> Then why not just do that?


Because it's much cheaper to let the travelers do the work for you.


----------



## K_

PippO.SkaiO said:


> NS repeating their successful procurement history with another Fyra-like odyssey?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nieuwe intercity-treinen laten nog langer op zich wachten
> 
> 
> Met het nieuwe materieel zouden eigenlijk dit jaar al passagiers vervoerd worden, maar dat wordt op zijn vroegst april volgend jaar, zegt NS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nos.nl


Should have bought from Stadler. Giruno's would be perfect for the Benelux services.


----------



## TER200

K_ said:


> Giruno's would be perfect for the Benelux services


The one that is as expensive as a very high-speed train, but limited to 200 km/h ? (250 only where the network accepts this with 18 tons/axle). Well, I guess why NS did not chose it (however the Flirt200 would have fitted, I guess Stadler contended with it).


----------



## 3737

Theijs said:


> It’s a pity the yellow / bordeaux red scheme isn’t returning on the ICNG-B, I liked that.


It would have looked a lot better though.









Link

Altough the Bordeux red livery was based on the old NMBS livery which is probably the reason they haven't used it.


----------



## M-NL

The livery looks good on this train, but I get German, instead of Benelux, vibes when I see this.


----------



## btrs

Apart from the good news of the ICNG-B, is there any timeframe when the final decision is going to be made concerning the conversion to 3kV DC ?
Only the recent purchased 'modular' sets (SNG, FLIRT3, ICNG) are easily convertible, maybe just needs a software/firmware upgrade. Koplopers are headed for scrap (needs physical electric conversion), VIRM are a creation of the 1990s which needs both physical and software adjustments to function under 3kV. SLT also not so sure (given their DB 425-origins..).

With the delays in ICNG delivery and the leasing contract for the Traxx ending, there are effectively 2 solutions:

Hire more Vectrons from ELL or other leasing firms. But they haven't the special homologation for HSL-Zuid, since the ETCS-version on the Southern section is a kind of a custom build (still on v2.3.0d, with special extensions for the cross-border operation between 2 different RBC's. A standard specification for such a setup was added in Baseline 3 versions, but needs completely new hardware on the RBC and track sides.)
Bring in the cousin of the Belgian HLE13: French BB36000/Astride. Capable of all 3 voltages the Netherlands currently has or will have in the future, and capable of 200 km/h on the HSL. Only downside is Akiem didn't bother to fit them with ETCS during their mid-life overhaul. 😟 And needs to be fitted with ATB as well (although it might be possible to use an STM, as in the Traxx/Vectrons ?).


----------



## mistertl

Last month, the decision was made not to convert to 3kV in the foreseeable future. It hasn't been ruled out entirely, as it probably will be necessary if passenger numbers keep growing, but at least until 2040 1.5 kV would be enough.


----------



## bifhihher

mistertl said:


> Last month, the decision was made not to convert to 3kV in the foreseeable future. It hasn't been ruled out entirely, as it probably will be necessary if passenger numbers keep growing, but at least until 2040 1.5 kV would be enough.


Rediculous


----------



## M-NL

Typically Dutch. Everybody knows something should be done, but hey, that's expensive, so keep on messing around and complaining, but actually do nothing.
Two things that make a transition difficult / expensive, are rolling stock and infrastructure that were never designed for 3 kV. So at least continue with requiring that all future rolling stock and infrastructure(changes) must be made 3 kV future proof, if not even already 3 kV capable. That would make a future transition much easier. For instance, modify all those bridges on electrified lines that do not have overhead lines yet and already account for the extra safety distance required for 3 kV.


----------



## Stuu

How much extra is the safety distance for 3kV compared to 1.5kV? The maximum that 25kV can jump is around 50mm, so it must be pretty minimal


----------



## M-NL

I can't find the exact numbers for 1500 V anymore, but for 3 kV Infrabel requires at least 50 cm and for 25 kV at least 70 cm, so for 1500 V it is probably somewhere in the 35 cm range.
Note that the minimal overhead wire height in the Netherlands is 5,1 m for 1500V, while the maximum kinematic train height of the GC profile is 4,7 m, so that's a 40 cm difference.


----------



## Stuu

M-NL said:


> I can't find the exact numbers for 1500 V anymore, but for 3 kV Infrabel requires at least 50 cm and for 25 kV at least 70 cm, so for 1500 V it is probably somewhere in the 35 cm range.
> Note that the minimal overhead wire height in the Netherlands is 5,1 m for 1500V, while the maximum kinematic train height of the GC profile is 4,7 m, so that's a 40 cm difference.


Those are lot bigger than the EU interoperability standard, which is 270mm for 25kV. The clearance is almost entirely for mechanical movement of the wires rather than electrical arcing. 

If there is already a 400mm clearance then there doesn't seem any reason for additional clearance for 3kV


----------



## 3737

mistertl said:


> Last month, the decision was made not to convert to 3kV in the foreseeable future. It hasn't been ruled out entirely, as it probably will be necessary if passenger numbers keep growing, but at least until 2040 1.5 kV would be enough.


Haven't heard anything yet about a decision of the conversion.
I'ts so stupid, typical Dutch to then wait until 2040 maybe try to extract more out of it by building even more powerstations or increasing the voltage to 1,8 kV and then see that the trains are grinding to a halt due to the overcapacity around 2040.
We're now in a energy transition and houding crisis where people are more dependent on public transport and also new housing will be developed around stations, the NS wants to run more sbahn (cirtysprinter) kind of services up to 12 sprinters per hour near 2040 on for example the Den Haag-Dordrecht corridor.
It seems that no one want to pull the trigger to start a conversion to ERMTS or 3kV/25kV because this means the closing (partly) of a railway line for a few months but in delaying it over years it will make the disruptions more expensive and also more severe due to the increasing capacity on the railway lines over the last and future decades.

Most of the infra still used today is dating form the 50's which they try to increase over time with small upgrades trying to fix an aging system.


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## mistertl

3737 said:


> Haven't heard anything yet about a decision of the conversion.


See Kamerbrief over BO MIRT november 2022 en moties en toezeggingen MIRT and the accompanying report: Feitenrapport Systeemkeuze TEV (both in Dutch).


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## Suburbanist

Wouldn't it be better to e.g. renovate all bridges and other clearances such that 50kV, 50Hz is viable in the future? That way, the railway grid can be directly connected to the normal grid, and lots of power can be derived from 50.000V, sufficient for very dense services on trains with very fast acceleration.

There is no need to stop at 26kV, let alone to keep the weird 16.7Hz frequecy.


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## AlbertJP

There is no 16.7Hz on the railways in the Netherlands. We do have 25kV 50Hz on some railways.


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## Suburbanist

AlbertJP said:


> There is no 16.7Hz on the railways in the Netherlands. We do have 25kV 50Hz on some railways.


My point is more about an Northern-European wide upgrade to 50kV, 50Hz, in Netherlands, Belgium, the whole HS system in France, Germany, Denmark.

But I know it is unlikely to happen.


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## M-NL

Stuu said:


> Those are lot bigger than the EU interoperability standard, which is 270mm for 25kV. The clearance is almost entirely for mechanical movement of the wires rather than electrical arcing.


Those distances came from a document regarding working in close proximity to the overhead line. The distance of the live wires to their carrying construction is smaller then that.


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## Stuu

Suburbanist said:


> Wouldn't it be better to e.g. renovate all bridges and other clearances such that 50kV, 50Hz is viable in the future? That way, the railway grid can be directly connected to the normal grid, and lots of power can be derived from 50.000V, sufficient for very dense services on trains with very fast acceleration.
> 
> There is no need to stop at 26kV, let alone to keep the weird 16.7Hz frequecy.


Acceleration is limited now so that people don't fall over, that is a hard limit on how fast a train can accelerate. I doubt there's very much to be gained going from 25 to 50kV. It means supply points can be further apart as currents can be lower, but that isn't an issue in most of Europe


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## M-NL

Stuu said:


> I doubt there's very much to be gained going from 25 to 50kV.


In Japan at peak times they run 400 meter 17 MW Shinkansen trains every 3 or so minutes in two directions fed by 25 kV 60 Hz overhead lines. Transformer efficiency is at 97 to 99 percent. Some systems actually already use 50 kV feeder lines with autotransformers to 25 kV to feed the running wire. So indeed, there is little to be gained with switching the overhead wire itself to 50 kV.


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## CitoyenNéerlandais

The first ICNG train with the new Flow-livery has arrived. Those with the new livery will connect Brussels and Antwerp (Belgium) with the Netherlands:


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