# Most progressive city in Eastern Europe ?...



## Regener8tor (May 22, 2011)

What would you say is the current most progressive city in Eastern Europe ?...

And why ?... 

Which city would you nominate based on the following factors ?... - business, politics, education, infrastructure, art, media, fashion, design, manufacturing and technology etc.


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

What do you mean by progressive?


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## ilovecoffee (Jul 9, 2013)

eastern europe is kind of tricky being that much of the territory was formerly ussr controlled and the goverments are still evolving since that breaking point around 20 years ago, and have not had enough time to establish an economically powerful and influential goverment. The poverty rates is eastern europe are also higher than the rest of the continent so again its hard to say without those cities having an established economic power that would really have influence over the city instead of the still evolving centers they are today.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

Prague, at least it is the richest city in that area.


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## Regener8tor (May 22, 2011)

It's interesting that you mention Prague because a friend of mine visits quite regularly and says it's quite a hip and liberal city. There seems to be a lot going on there in terms of cultural events etc.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Prague is the eastern european city with most tourist arrivals.

3.7 million tourists in 2006

Ranked no 20 in all the world. 
Higher up the list than many western cities like Berlin, Munich and Florence.

Stockholm Sweden ranks at place 66. Copenhagen at 54th place.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Eastern European :crazy:
Prague is west of Vienna


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

I don't consider CZ to be in Eastern Europe either. Regardless, I think Prague is the most liberal city in former Eastern bloc.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

I always see Moscow as the most progressive, economic centre, financial and cultural hub of Eastern Europe


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

Slartibartfas said:


> Eastern European :crazy:
> Prague is west of Vienna


I think the thread starter meant formerly communist countries in Europe when writing eastern Europe.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Then he should have said so. Man, the iron curtain fell a whole generation ago. People could at some point start to realize that things have changed back to where east really means east again and not communist.

The Czech Republic was never orthodox, has a distinctive central European look and feel and is as I said no furhter east than some strong holds of the "West".


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

^^ I have the impression that "Eastern Europe" has a peyorative meaning for some people in Europe.



Manila-X said:


> I always see Moscow as the most progressive, economic centre, financial and cultural hub of Eastern Europe


Moscow? Where the Pussy Riots where imprissoned for showing their tits in public? where gay people are almost persecuted? where you need to have good relations with the government to get a concession? where Putin controls everything, even when he was not the President? Yeah, thats progressive.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Possibly, but thats not my point. Its simply wrong. Its geograpically not eastern and its culturally far away from Russia, even though its slavic.

For me Eastern Europe starts somewhere where Orthodoxy starts. But the line is not very clear. There is really nothing eastern about Crotia for example, a catholic country that looks like Italy on the coast line. It was not even part of the east block. Czechoslovakia was part of the east block but so was the GDR. I know some people also continue to call Dresden Eastern European but thats as nonsensical as calling Prague Eastern European.



> One definition describes Eastern Europe as a cultural (and econo-cultural) entity: the region lying in Europe with main characteristics consisting in Byzantine, Orthodox and some Turco-Islamic influences.[2][3] Another definition, considered outdated by most authors,[4][5][6][7][8] was created during the Cold War and used more or less synonymously with the term Eastern Bloc. A similar definition names the formerly communist European states outside the Soviet Union as Eastern Europe.[3]


wikipedia.org


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

What about the Baltic states and their cities? I would like to nominate Tallinn. 

I can't understand how someone can see Moscow as progressive though?! Probably the least progressive city in Europe...
Sure, they have some interesting construction projects with modern design and so on but so does Dubai and many other cities in the Gulf States. They're certainly not progressive.


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## Treka (Jan 26, 2013)

I was thinking more Polish, Perhaps Warsaw?


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Tallinn certainly has a progressive reputation and a tech-savvy one.


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

^^It's rather small though.



sebvill said:


> ^^ I have the impression that "Eastern Europe" has a peyorative meaning for some people in Europe.


You have the right impression and some of this people live in the former Eastern Block so when you call them "Eastern Europeans" they might get offended. National pride and complexes aside this term is quite confusing like in this thread where you have to compare cities like Prague or Bucarest to Moscow and you wouldn't normally do that because this cities are nothing alike.


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## Proterra (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess in Eastern Europe, Istanbul is probably the most progressive city. That, or any city somewhere in Finland or the Baltics, Tampere and Tallinn come to mind... Mytilene is also quite progressive, but it's too small to be really called a city. All the other countries in Eastern Europe are too poor or too auhoritarian to be sporting much progressiveness...


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

For people of a certain age, maybe 30s+, east/west is more of a cultural than a geographical distinction.

And even 20 years+ since the fall of communism, GDPs in the east are still considerably below western counterparts. 

You can find cities with a central european feel as far east as Lviv and Kiev in Ukraine, and while the eastern nations are certainly different in character, they often feel to have more in common with each other than other countries in the geographical centre of europe.


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

Iluminat said:


> ^^It's rather small though.


It's a capital city. Estonia is one of the countries that has done best since the dissolution of the Soviet Union too. Even though it may be smaller than Prague it's still an important city in this regard. It doesn't feel "Eastern" (as in old communist city). For it's size it has good business connections and as Slartibartfas says it's a high-tech city.

And how many really large cities is there in Eastern Europe anyway? Prague, Warsaw, St. Petersburg, Moscow and Bucharest, Kiev and Budapest are the only I can think of right away. Rather small thread if those are the only candidates.


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## Proterra (Mar 17, 2011)

KeanoManu said:


> And how many really large cities is there in Eastern Europe anyway? Prague, Warsaw, St. Petersburg, Moscow and Bucharest, Kiev and Budapest are the only I can think of right away. Rather small thread if those are the only candidates.


And you can scrap Warsaw, Prague and Budapest straight off that list as these cities are neither geographically, nor culturally, part of Eastern Europe. If "Eastern European" is another word for "Slavic" then historically everything east of the river Weser is "Eastern Europe" 
Culturally, I'd even consider Poland and Czech actually more Western European than anything else, and geographically these two countries are right in the heart of the continent.


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## KeanoManu (Mar 1, 2012)

Proterra said:


> And you can scrap Warsaw, Prague and Budapest straight off that list as these cities are neither geographically, nor culturally, part of Eastern Europe. If "Eastern European" is another word for "Slavic" then historically everything east of the river Weser is "Eastern Europe"
> Culturally, I'd even consider Poland and Czech actually more Western European than anything else, and geographically these two countries are right in the heart of the continent.


I took the definition of Eastern as in former Soviet and it's allies. It highlights the problem with the thread though. What is Eastern Europe? In Sweden I would say that the term Eastern Europe usually is just exactly how I interpreted it as. But it's different for everyone and different between countries.

I agree that Prague/Czech Republic are more Western European culturally. The same can be said about the Baltic states. All these four have economies close to Western European standard too.

The terms are even more complicated than this though. Both Spain and the UK are Western European, but culturally there's a huge difference.


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

KeanoManu said:


> It's a capital city. Estonia is one of the countries that has done best since the dissolution of the Soviet Union too. Even though it may be smaller than Prague it's still an important city in this regard. It doesn't feel "Eastern" (as in old communist city). For it's size it has good business connections and as Slartibartfas says it's a high-tech city.


I'm not sure if it's really more "high-tech" or "western" than let's say Wrocław, Poznań or Bratislava. Actually Tallinn still looks more "eastern" at certain parts than CEE cities due to it's SU legacy it also have a large Russian minority, probably the largest in the EU.



> And how many really large cities is there in Eastern Europe anyway? Prague, Warsaw, St. Petersburg, Moscow and Bucharest, Kiev and Budapest are the only I can think of right away. Rather small thread if those are the only candidates.


Perhaps there aren't many "really" large cities but in the Tallinn league we have quite many to choose from Vilnius, Riga, Ljubljana even many Polish province capitals can compete although being the capital of a whole country does give Tallinn some advantage.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

KeanoManu said:


> I took the definition of Eastern as in former Soviet and it's allies. It highlights the problem with the thread though. What is Eastern Europe? In Sweden I would say that the term Eastern Europe usually is just exactly how I interpreted it as. But it's different for everyone and different between countries.
> 
> I agree that Prague/Czech Republic are more Western European culturally. The same can be said about the Baltic states. All these four have economies close to Western European standard too.
> 
> The terms are even more complicated than this though. Both Spain and the UK are Western European, but culturally there's a huge difference.


If you want to be more precise:

Southern Europe: Portugal, Spain, Southern France, Italy, Greece

Western Europe: UK, Ireland, Northern France, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Western Germany

Northern Europe: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland

Central Europe: Eastern Germany, Czech Republic, Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland

Eastern Europe: Baltics, Western Russia, Belorrusia, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria

The Balkans: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia. (although probably the first two dont identified themselves with thes rest of the group and could be considered part of Central Europe).

How close was I?


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

Oh dear, Poland and Czech Republic, Croatia and Estonia are surely eastern european countries / nations.

Here in Spain they are considered as Eastern Europe (politically, economically, culturally) absolutely, whether they like it or not.

What a pity: they have to speak about being progressive, they are so anxious to be like the West (a large part of the population there) instead of trying to be a centre of power and attraction on their own. :nuts:

First they were dependent of what Russia was saying, now hating it and do everything what the West orders.

But whatever
Actually what has all of these to do with the theme of the thread hno:. 

For me as a centre of power, economically and culturally - Moscow is number one, Civil rights and also culture - Prague. Cities with the most beautiful historical architectural heritage: San-Petersburg, Prague, Krakow, Tallinn, Budapest, Dubrovnik


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## jwojcie (Jun 4, 2009)

^^
kind of a weak post... with historical perspective context cutted just in 45'... the things in CEE are kind of more complicated than simplistic view that _"most of the things east of Spain are east"_ It would be really funny to see you ArchiMos saying straight in the face of more than 100 years old person who without leaving home has lived in Austro-Hungary, Germany and Poland that he is some wanna be Westerner and in fact Eastern European ... :lol:

Anyway, the OP should just say "the former soviet block countries" and it would be clear what is the topic here.


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

jwojcie said:


> ^^
> kind of a weak post... with historical perspective context cutted just in 45'... the things in CEE are kind of more complicated than simplistic view that _"most of the thing east of Spain are east"_ It would be really funny to see you ArchiMos saying straight in the face of more than 100 years old person who without leaving home has lived in Austro-Hungary, Germany and Poland that he is some wanna be Westerner and in fact Eastern European ... :lol:
> 
> Anyway, the OP should just say "the former soviet block countries" and it would be clear what is the topic here.


Well I´d say straight to his face: So sorry, granny, but whether you like it or not, the perception in the countries such as Spain, Italy or France is that you are Eastern European.

I´m talking about the actual moment and the geo-political situation of today, because 100 years ago it was a different story, and ,I don´t know, 2000 years ago the most progressive was the South of Europe and so what?


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## jwojcie (Jun 4, 2009)

ArchiMos said:


> Well I´d say straight to his face: So sorry, granny, but whether you like it or not, the perception in the countries such as Spain, Italy or France is that you are Eastern European.


Well, you know but this sounds a little bit pre-Copernican: everything around is not central cause is moving around us... A little bit not up to the speed with science and history I would say  From that perspective this thread is entirely futile, because every single one of us lives in the centre...



ArchiMos said:


> I´m talking about the actual moment and the geo-political situation of today, because 100 years ago it was a different story, and ,I don´t know, 2000 years ago the most progressive was the South of Europe and so what?


No, you are talking about geo-political situation of more than twenty years ago. Many people kind of miss that simple world, I guess there was also some inertia in school books of some countries not directly involved. (Un)fortunately current geo-political situation is more like 100 or even 1000 years ago...

Anyway, I don't really care about it.. I guess if current EU shape is more or less sealed, then in time the idea of "Europe" would be constrained to EU which is already happening and pisses of those outside of it. If that happens then all border countries would become "Far East Europe" countries :lol:


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

ArchiMos said:


> Oh dear, Poland and Czech Republic, Croatia and Estonia are surely eastern european countries / nations.
> Here in Spain they are considered as Eastern Europe (politically, economically, culturally) absolutely, whether they like it or not.


But why would this contries care what they consider them to be in Spain or Argentina? I don't really see an argument here. It's only natural for Spanish people to be ignorant about countries that are so far.



> What a pity: they have to speak about being progressive, they are so anxious to be like the West (a large part of the population there) instead of trying to be a centre of power and attraction on their own. :nuts:


I don't think this countries actually have the potential to be a center of power on their own, they lack population and economical power for that not to mention you can't build your identity on what people in Spain, Italy or some other places think you are.


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## OxfordWarsaw (Feb 26, 2013)

Regener8tor said:


> What would you say is the current most progressive city in Eastern Europe ?...
> 
> And why ?...
> 
> Which city would you nominate based on the following factors ?... - business, politics, education, infrastructure, art, media, fashion, design, manufacturing and technology etc.


Warsaw, end of thread :]


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

ArchiMos said:


> Oh dear, Poland and Czech Republic, Croatia and Estonia are surely eastern european countries / nations.
> 
> Here in Spain they are considered as Eastern Europe (politically, economically, culturally) absolutely, whether they like it or not.


Which is if anything a demonstration of ignorance. Czechs share a lot with Austrians culturally and historically (or the other way round) and economically they are catching up to the old EU member states as well. So what you are saying now is that this counts nothing because of a 45 years episode in the 20th century. :nuts:

But maybe Austria is also considered Eastern European in Spain. What do I know.

Anyway, this debate gets repetitve. As jwojcie said it, this thread is about cities from the "former east block". Thats fine. I honestly don't know enough about all these cities but I would expect that Prague would be a candidate. I also found Ljubljana refreshing btw.


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## Laurentzius (Sep 10, 2010)

Proterra said:


> I guess in Eastern Europe, Istanbul is probably the most progressive city. That, or any city somewhere in Finland or the Baltics, Tampere and Tallinn come to mind... Mytilene is also quite progressive, but it's too small to be really called a city. All the other countries in Eastern Europe are too poor or too auhoritarian to be sporting much progressiveness...


There's so much fail in this post, I don't even know where to begin. First of all, Istanbul is not in Eastern Europe. But I've seen maps showing Turkey as part of Western Europe, so what do I know? Have you also missed the news about the Gezi park protests in Istanbul? Really progressive stuff, indeed. Finland is geographically part of Eastern Europe if you must divide Europe in 2 halves, but I seriously doubt that the person who opened the thread had Finland in mind. Dismissing all countries between Finland and Turkey aka the entire Eastern Europe as "too poor or too authoritarian to be sporting much progressiveness" shows that you basically have no clue about EE at all. Why bother commenting then?


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

^^I guess he was just ironic since Nowy Targ is in Poland:dunno:


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

Moscow is indeed a leading progressive city in EE in one field, which is politics - but people's politics, not state politics. They have a very strong civil society and a lot of critical thinkers. Best contemporary art scene too, with a focus on the political, the social and the ideological. The protests after the last elections were the most amazing in Eastern Europe since the fall of communism. It must be said that they didn't achieve much, which isn't surprising considering who they're dealing with. But the protests were the best in EE since the Serbian anti-establishment movement from about a decade and half ago. Back then Belgrade was amazing, easily the most progressive in EE, it's a shame that with the NATO attack everything changed, civil society realligned itself on a very nationalistic position, and the country overall changed priorities and that spirit died. Even so, original leaders of the Belgrade protests still teach civic dissent & disobedience all over the world (the Egyptian spring for example had strong links with Serbian activists). 

Also, EE never was or is only about Slavs. Besides Slavs, Eastern Europe comprises in even it's most strict geographical definition a few good tens of milions of non-Slav people, like Romanians (including the majority ethnicity in Moldova), Georgians, Armenians, Balts, Estonians, plus countryless people like Tartars and Roma gypsy. If you expand the definition to former communist Central-European & South-Eastern European states, you also get the Hungarians, Albanians, plus the country-less Aromanians.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

Im nominating Bratislava for this title

Its one of youngest capitals of Europe, just 15 years ago it was a black hole even in eastern europe and now after 15 years thanks to its geostrategic position its one of cities with highest disposable income in eastern europe ...


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

alexandru.mircea said:


> it's a shame that with the NATO attack everything changed..


just forgot to say that few years prior bombardment, Serbs voted for madman in power who in early 90's did genocide on non-serbs citizens of former Yugoslavia.

but nevertheless prior that I can agree that Belgrade along with other yugoslav cities were pinnacle of Eastern European development.. just shame there is no metro {underground train system}


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

Name user 1 said:


> just forgot to say that few years prior bombardment, Serbs voted for madman in power who in early 90's did genocide on non-serbs citizens of former Yugoslavia.


You're trying too make it look like fickle people who don't know what they want, but you know it's not true. One would suspect that te people who took to the streets months after months were not the same who voted for Milosevic just previously. Just like in Romania - the 1990 "occupy" of the University Square in Bucharest didn't comprise of people who voted the neo-communists.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

you cannot compare dictatorship or life in Romania (one of the most oppressed and poorest countries of Europe at that time) before 1990 with Yugoslavia which at that time was one of the most developed countries in the world 

..unfortunately in late 80's suppression of minorities took off because few years after TITO death Yugoslav economy worsened {confidentially in late 80's) and as a result no one was able to hold so many minorities under one country in peaceful way... everyone wanted bigger share of pie but no one (Croats, Serbs, Slovenes...etc) wanted share with others

as a Serbs were most powerful in Yugoslavia so Milosevic exploited it for its gain by using minorities and later armies against BiH & Croats

btw> ethnic cleaning wasn't only about Milosevic who abused system ..anyway he still had clear support of Serbians well beyond 1999 when he stepped down..

its sad how this once wealthiest part of the Eastern Europe ended


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

Name user 1 said:


> you cannot compare dictatorship or life in Romania (one of the most oppressed and poorest countries of Europe at that time) before 1990 with Yugoslavia which at that time was one of the most developed countries in the world


What are you on about? I didn't even come close to talking about that.


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

alexandru.mircea said:


> Moscow is indeed a leading progressive city in EE in one field, which is politics - but people's politics, not state politics. They have a very strong civil society and a lot of critical thinkers. Best contemporary art scene too, with a focus on the political, the social and the ideological. The protests after the last elections were the most amazing in Eastern Europe since the fall of communism. It must be said that they didn't achieve much, which isn't surprising considering who they're dealing with.


Very well said, Alexandru, let´s hope those like Sebvill read it and start to divide the political regime, that could be oppressive and degenerating and the civil society – progressive and developing, all in the same city. 

But it seems like a tough theme, as it looks like everyone has its own concept of what is “progressive” and even what is “Eastern Europe”. :nuts:


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

jwojcie said:


> ^^
> kind of a weak post...





jwojcie said:


> Well, you know but this sounds a little bit pre-Copernican:


And, Jwojcie, kind of be so kind to leave your inventive valorizations of other peoples´ points of view for your mummy, thank you


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## jwojcie (Jun 4, 2009)

^^
Oh... don't act so but hurt... didn't mean to be offensive...


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

A Spanish talking about peripherical conditions....


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## ArchiMos (Jan 18, 2011)

sebvill said:


> A Spanish talking about peripherical conditions....


Who is Spanish ?, I´m not.


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

What do people think of Krakow? Just got back from there and loved it.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

^^ Never been there but plan to do go there. I have no idea how progressive it is though.


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

In Poland it have reputation of being very conservative and dangerous due to the football related violence, from time to time you hear about people being stabbed to death with a knife or machete for some stupid reason hno:


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## vladanng (Aug 2, 2009)

Im amazed by some people here comenting. Im from Serbia, and someone said that in Spain everything here is Eastern Europe  Not to mentioned what we in Serbia and region think for Spain/ South Italy and maybe Portugal and southern parts of France..if we look on that ignorant way. im for example amazed how cities there can be full of garbage on every street, or how people are too short or too fat. Or how nobody can learn proper english without strong local accent. People from spain, and i heard about that think that all this region east from Vienna is third world or what. But again they dont now that we also see big difference between Spain And Germany/North Italy  
The point i wanted to say, is that people are without brain when thinking about IE or SIE. After all years of comunism and wars in region and coruption, its not that bad. Come to see just differencesbetween Serbia and Bulgaria. As they were Comunism in SSSR, neither EU helps them to look better than Serbia, or Sofia to look better than Belgrade. Serbia is poor country, but is recovering, and i would say that Bucharest and Belgrade would be in SIE cities with future. 
Athens/Istanbul are higher level. So, IE Moscow/Kiev. SIE Istanbul/Bucharest/Belgrade. Istanbul we now why, Bucharest, in big country for Europe standards and country with relatively strong economy. When it comes to Sofia and Belgrade, BG would be winner, cause it have much bigger market and infulence in region. Serbia and Bulgaria are same population, but Belgrade is economical/cultural/political very strong in 50% of Bosnia/whole Montenegro/North Kosovo and Macedonia, amd after all has some of influents on Croatia and Slovenia, mostly on culture/music and politics. Sofia have just Bulgaria and much stronger and bigger neigbours RO/TR. Serbia even on Bulgaria have impact in culture/music. Zagreb/Tirana/Sarajevo/Skoplje/Podgorica/Chisinau..dont think they can became progresive in region. So, remember in SIE BG and Buchares for nice future and regional centers. In IE Moscow and Kiev. So its not the same SIE or IE. Budapest is now center, but i dont know how fast they are progresing.


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## selters (Dec 20, 2012)

I do not believe what I have just read. A few days ago I was in Belgrade. I traveled great distances, experienced lot's of different cultures, nations and styles up to date but I have never seen dirtier, more disorganized and more depressive and gray place than Belgrade is. Listening Serbians speaking about Belgrade I tough it would be something, but actually it's much closer to nothing. Over the many places in that small city center you can fell the the strong smell coming out of garbage bins and canalisation, that is disguisting, and it's dirty. Taxi drivers are comparable to one in NYC, and generally Staff members in Hotels, Restaurants, Bars and practically anywhere else are rude and impolite. On the other side there is a matter of political situation due to facts that Belgrade politics has always been an unstable melting pot composed of ultra-nationalist, dictators and lunatics threatening to spread the fire on amuch larger extend (as it did in the 90'). Anyway, sorry to break your illusions, but in Belgrade there is simply not much to see, and it's definitely not a city of progression, even on a distant time scale.


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## Manitopiaaa (Mar 6, 2006)

Ljubljana
Olomouc
Prague
Tallinn
Warsaw

Prague is the only one that can be considered progressive when compared with Western Europe's hedonist hubs lol: Amsterdam, Barcelona, Berlin, Madrid and London, Paris, Rome to some extent.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

vladanng said:


> The point i wanted to say, is that people are without brain when thinking about IE or SIE. After all years of comunism and wars in region and coruption, its not that bad. Come to see just differencesbetween Serbia and Bulgaria. As they were Comunism in SSSR, neither EU helps them to look better than Serbia, or Sofia to look better than Belgrade. Serbia is poor country, but is recovering, and i would say that Bucharest and Belgrade would be in SIE cities with future.


let speak statistics 

"Serbia is one of the poorest countries in Europe. Serbian GDP is only 35 percent of the EU average. Just behind Serbia is Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina - according to preliminary estimates of the European statistical office Eurostat."

oficial link published few weeks ago Eurostat










and bad new in Serbian


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## vladanng (Aug 2, 2009)

Everyone who went in Bulgaria and Serbia, can see which country is developed. U FORGOT to tell that in Serbia black market is not counted in economuy, and in Bulgaria it is, because of EU standard. Bulgarian roads are mostly in catastrophic shapes/cities are with devastating infrastructure and facades, AND Serbia form big diasporta, in 2012. got some 5 bilions euros. Bulgaria at same time, as i understood had just one bilion. Difference can see, becuse of history. And we talk about future. Go in Bosnia, leave statistics, Sarajevo look so developed and cleaner and richer than Sofia, and whole country. U dont understand the point. Bulgaria cause of EU standards neede to destroy black market, and in Serbia is oficcialy biggest in region. And, now i will look for u, in Serbia in 2012 had biggest income from Diaspora in region. Believe me u, standars of living is higher in Serbia, and if are not fro this region, than u dont know what u are talking. And as i sad, for future, Belgrade is having bigger influence and has big impact on former EX yu and that together is bigger market than Sofia having just Bulgaria. Thats my point. And go look for etihad buying Jat airways, ist first step of BG becaming regional centar.


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## vladanng (Aug 2, 2009)

As i tell, Bosnia and Serbia DIDNT counted black market in regular economy, belive me, and its very very big in Serbia, so stastisics cant show what is true. Bulgaria on other hand and Romania and Croatia and other EU countries because of EU standard, had to do that.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

vladanng said:


> U FORGOT to tell that in Serbia black market is not counted in economy, and in Bulgaria it is, because of EU standard.


where you get that from ? Serbian diaspora news or someone got that from blog or forum - better to get some reliable info to support it

btw- being proud of Black economy - which not generate taxes - needed for proper functioning of state (health, education, building infrastructure, police, army, state institutions) ... not really something to be proud of



btw black economy counts for around 30% of Bulgarian economy and its not counted by Eurostat


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

Bulgaria has the biggest share of undeclared economy in the EU

Bulgaria has the biggest share of undeclared economy in the European Union (EU) – 31.9% of GDP, a study of the European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions (Eurofound) revealed;

link

Bulgaria Tops EU in Informal Economy (black economy)
Bulgaria's informal economy is the largest of any European Union country, over 30 per cent, according to a recent study.

link


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

Serbia is now one of the poorest country in Europe and you can look at in from any angle... unemployment one of highest in Europe, average wages one of the lowest in Europe, 

debt of country is high in comparison with others European countries within same GDP per capita range ... even now Serbia borrows like crazy to function, if lenders will stop borrowing to Serbia - how much public wages will be in Serbia? 100 euro?

and btw - Sofia public transfor beside others modes of transport has metro (underground train) and Belgrade not


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## alexandru.mircea (May 18, 2011)

selters said:


> I do not believe what I have just read. A few days ago I was in Belgrade. I traveled great distances, experienced lot's of different cultures, nations and styles up to date but I have never seen dirtier, more disorganized and more depressive and gray place than Belgrade is.


That may be true, but remember that we're not in a thread about infrastructure, urban development or regeneration. I was making the same point RE Bucharest in the "hipster city" thread. The heart and soul of a city can exist without any connection to the level of development or decay of the city, the level of public services or private economy... Whether a city has a creative class, intellectuals, dissenting civil society, and public spaces to put them to work is a different issue. 
This is not to say Belgrade has these things now (they certainly had them in the '90s), I don't know, my point is not to dismiss a city completely based only on one side of it. I almost did the same in Marseille, for example, which - seen through my initial petit-bourgeois lenses - seemed like an immigration sh*thole stuck under piles of trash and layers of decay, only to look more attentively and discover it's in fact one of the most interesting cities in Western Europe.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

This thread is not about the poorest region but about the most progressive city in the formerly communist countries.


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## TurboEngine (Jun 2, 2013)

vladanng said:


> Everyone who went in Bulgaria and Serbia, can see which country is developed. U FORGOT to tell that in Serbia black market is not counted in economuy, and in Bulgaria it is, because of EU standard. Bulgarian roads are mostly in catastrophic shapes/cities are with devastating infrastructure and facades, AND Serbia form big diasporta, in 2012. got some 5 bilions euros. Bulgaria at same time, as i understood had just one bilion. Difference can see, becuse of history. And we talk about future. Go in Bosnia, leave statistics, Sarajevo look so developed and cleaner and richer than Sofia, and whole country. U dont understand the point. Bulgaria cause of EU standards neede to destroy black market, and in Serbia is oficcialy biggest in region. And, now i will look for u, in Serbia in 2012 had biggest income from Diaspora in region. Believe me u, standars of living is higher in Serbia, and if are not fro this region, than u dont know what u are talking. And as i sad, for future, Belgrade is having bigger influence and has big impact on former EX yu and that together is bigger market than Sofia having just Bulgaria. Thats my point. And go look for etihad buying Jat airways, ist first step of BG becaming regional centar.


Hello, this is not a psychiatric clinic for treatment of complexes :bash:

Serbia is worse economically than Bulgaria in every single indicator. By the way, only a very poor country can be proud of diaspora remittances. You're basically saying you live off handouts.


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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

no need to dicking here TurboEngine, everyone got point, those smiles are unnecessary ...


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## Macedonicus (Aug 9, 2011)

It's fair to compare Bulgaria with other EU country so I'd rather compare it with Greece. Bulgaria's roads are far better than the Greek ones. The sea-area is also lot better, more developed and with better night life and I prefer the Bulgarian resort towns than the Greek ones.


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## TurboEngine (Jun 2, 2013)

^^

No, the roads are not better at all. Greece has put a lot of money in its road infrastructure.


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

Afaik Bulgaria have slightly lower corruption perception and that's it


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## alesmarv (Mar 31, 2006)

Surprised someone mentioned Spain in the same sentence as Germany and France. But anyways Czech, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Balkans, etc. are most definitely eastern Europe, culturally, economically nor geographically. But I haven't lived in Europe for longer than 6 months straight in some 25 years so what do I know. I do know that the central European countries that someone called Eastern Europe are on a trajectory to well surpass Spain and the rest of Southern Europe in all major economic categories within the next two decades.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

What is the GDP growth rate for those countries you mention?


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## Beck Duggleby (Aug 10, 2013)

Prague is the most liberal/progressive.


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## Kensingtonian (Nov 8, 2008)

Prague is the first city that comes to mind.


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