# MISC | Ansaldo Breda



## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

Why the hell isn't this company blacklisted by the EU? Everything I have ever read about this company is that they are FUBARing everything they are involved in.

If it's not the worthless IC4 in Denmark, then it is the worthless new trams in Gothenburg or the worthless new V250 HSR train in Holland or the worthless ETR 500 in Italy. 

What the hell is going on? Why is this maffia shite organization allowed to continue with their scams, all they do is robbing money from taxpayers all over europe :bash:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Calm down. They offer better prices than other train makers, and get contracts.

The V250 project is recovering after previous problems - finally.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> Calm down. They offer better prices than other train makers, and get contracts.
> 
> The V250 project is recovering after previous problems - finally.


They sell you a Ferrari and then you find out after delivery that in reality it was a Fiat with a broke gearbox.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

gincan said:


> They sell you a Ferrari and then you find out after delivery that in reality it was a Fiat with a broke gearbox.


The problem is that people contracting them usually mixup the specs and other things during the project, and AnsaldoBreda is less flexible with protocol adjustments than other train maker. So they can argue in courts forever.

There is no such "blacklisting" of an European company operating under the law of an European state.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist has stock in AnsaldoBreda.

Always defending incompetence.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Silly_Walks said:


> Suburbanist has stock in AnsaldoBreda.
> 
> Always defending incompetence.


I don't own any shares of Finmeccaninca (the holding of which AnsaldoBreda is part of).


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## tool2106 (Sep 24, 2009)

Finmeccanica is facing major financial problems due to economic crysis in Italy. Just a few days ago stocks plunged losing 20% in one day.

We're having major delays in Italy as well on deliveries from Ansando Breda, FinCantieri and Alenia, and we're sorry for delays all around the world.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> The problem is that people contracting them usually mixup the specs and other things during the project, and AnsaldoBreda is less flexible with protocol adjustments than other train maker.


So you are conceding that it is a less customer orientated company than the other rolling stock suppliers? 
Because it looks like it will either have to adapt to the realities of the market, or disappear. There are companies out there after all that manage to deliver reliable train sets on time and on budget...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

gincan said:


> Why the hell isn't this company blacklisted by the EU?


It's not up to the EU to "blacklist" companies. It's up to the railways not to consider their offers when writing out a tender. I suspect that the V250 will probably be the last train AnsaldoBreda will sell outside of Italy for a while...


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

This firm is the epitome of poor performance, and frankly I'm disappointed that people still buy rolling stock from them. Just let it die for christ's sake.


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

That's true, and even italian railways should stop buying AnsaldoBreda trains! :bash:
In Italy we still have othe non-state owned companies, that can work much better, even if they don't get any order from the state railways hno:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> So you are conceding that it is a less customer orientated company than the other rolling stock suppliers?


Of course. There is no point negating that. They work like it were 1992 in terms of project specification and didn't implement design-adjust-build philosophy at all. 



> Because it looks like it will either have to adapt to the realities of the market, or disappear. There are companies out there after all that manage to deliver reliable train sets on time and on budget...


Finmeccaninca is considering either selling the rolling stock unit, and/or shutting down the long-distance stock unit (retaining only the subway, light-rail and tram unit).


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> It's not up to the EU to "blacklist" companies. It's up to the railways not to consider their offers when writing out a tender. I suspect that the V250 will probably be the last train AnsaldoBreda will sell outside of Italy for a while...


In certain cases, laws prevent railway companies owned by governments for not considering a bid from a capable supplier.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> In certain cases, laws prevent railway companies owned by governments for not considering a bid from a capable supplier.


Capable supplier? Well no law will force anyone to consider AnsaldoBreda, then :lol:


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

> ...retaining only the subway, light-rail and tram unit).


Makes sense. They're supplying rolling stock to LA's Metro (apparently they have the unions "bought"), and they are going to have the Honolulu Light Rail Project. SF Muni also.


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## mopc (Jan 31, 2005)

gincan said:


> Why the hell isn't this company blacklisted by the EU? Everything I have ever read about this company is that they are FUBARing everything they are involved in.
> 
> If it's not the worthless IC4 in Denmark, then it is the worthless new trams in Gothenburg or the worthless new V250 HSR train in Holland or the worthless ETR 500 in Italy.
> 
> What the hell is going on? Why is this maffia shite organization allowed to continue with their scams, all they do is robbing money from taxpayers all over europe :bash:


Can we have sources for these claims, specific cases and problems, please


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

Finmeccanica looks to sell off Ansaldo-Breda:



> As part of a 1 billion euro asset sell-off by the end of 2012, Finmeccanica will also move ahead with talks to sell loss-making rail unit Ansaldo Breda.


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8272007&c=EUR&s=TOP

A different article says Bombardier is the favored suitor...


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

^^ For example the V250.
The trains were orderd in 2005 by HSA and NMBS.
The first v250 came in the end off april 2009 in holland when all the 19 trains should have been deliverd around 2007.
Right now they are still testing the trains and not all the trains are dellivered yet.
According to the latest rumors, the V250 train can't past a test to get a 1000 km without a mallfunction.hno:


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

mopc said:


> Can we have sources for these claims, specific cases and problems, please


To help your knowledge of the problems with the Danish IC4 train sets, here is an article from the International Railway Journal on the subject.
The reason DSB decided, after this article was published, to continue with the project is mainly because it would be more expensive to abandon the project than to more or less rebuild the trains themselves and get them to work.
At this moment all IC4 trains are grounded, because of 2 cases of brake failures, leading to trains passing signals showing red. Luckily no accidents.

PS. The transport minister mentioned in the article is no longer part of the government having lost a general election to the Social Democrats.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

mopc said:


> Can we have sources for these claims, specific cases and problems, please


Do you really want me to digg up tons of articles about the continous FUBARing of all the rail-contracts awarded to Ansaldobreda?
Here is one from 2009 about the FUBARed IC4

_Executives at the state rail service have a backup plan ready in case its next generation of passenger trains are not delivered by the May deadline. National rail service DSB has indicated that it doubts whether Italian company Ansaldobreda can meet its deadline to deliver 14 IC4 passenger trains by May.

After repeated delays delivering the latest generation of passenger trains, DSB gave Ansaldobreda a final ultimatum last year that the first of a total of 83 IC4s would be in service by May 2009. Ansaldobreda was *originally supposed to have delivered the first the IC4s by 2003*, with all being fully operational by 2006. 

Eight trains have been delivered, but *only three are operational*, and *all still have problems*, according to DSB. ‘I’d like to be able to say that I hope the deadline is met, but I’ve stopped believing in the IC4,’ said Søren Eriksen, DSB’s managing director, told TV2 news.

Eriksen said DSB was initiating a back-up plan should the IC4s not arrive in May. He said up to 45 double-decker trains, along with three IC3s and an additional three InterCityExpress trains loaned from Germany’s state rail service Deutsche Bahn will be ready to be put into service. He added that the failed delivery of the IC4s would result in DSB having to annul its 5 billion kroner contract with Ansaldobreda. DSB has already paid Ansaldobreda 3.5 billion kroner.

A spokesperson from Ansaldobreda told The Copenhagen Post that the company was not a liberty to comment on the situation. Currently, one IC4 train operates Monday through Thursday between Aalborg, Aarhus and Copenhagen._


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> AB promised that they would build a local assembly plant, which would mean that about 100 new permanent jobs and more temporary jobs would be created. They've promised this to other American cities as well.


They promised it to Los Angeles as well, which raised some questions in the media since they figured out A.B. promised it to 2 other cities as well, while they could only really open a local plant at 1 of those locations... so they were lying to at least 2 American cities.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> AnsaldoBreda won the contract to build new cars for Miami metro.


I'll hope for the best for Miami. Let's keep following the progress, maybe this time they will get it right.


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> AB promised that they would build a local assembly plant, which would mean that about 100 new permanent jobs and more temporary jobs would be created. They've promised this to other American cities as well.





Silly_Walks said:


> They promised it to Los Angeles as well, which raised some questions in the media since they figured out A.B. promised it to 2 other cities as well, while they could only really open a local plant at 1 of those locations... so they were lying to at least 2 American cities.


How come they do that? :uh::nuts:
They must believe people are stupid! icard:



Silly_Walks said:


> I'll hope for the best for Miami. Let's keep following the progress, maybe this time they will get it right.


Florida: fingers crossed & touch all the wood of the Everglades! :|


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> AnsaldoBreda won the contract to build new cars for Miami metro.


 I feel sorry for the staff who will be confronted with such unreliable rubbish. 



> They lost Honolulu's contract though.


Three hurrays for Honolulu then....


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

*Oslo says stop!*

An article just went live on the website of the Danish engineering magazine "Ingenioeren". It deals with a recent report by the traffic company of Oslo City concerning the 32 trams they bought a few years ago from AndsaldoBreda. I translate the first sentences: 

"Drop that rubbish!" That was the main gist of a comprehensive technical review of Oslo's 32 light rail carriages provided by Ansaldobreda. The rolling stock is between 9 and 12 years old and although it officially has at least another 20 years to go, the technicians recommend condemning the entirety to the scrapheap - and sooner rather than later. 

’The maintenance costs of the SL95-carriages are in all likelihood the highest in Europe. At any rate they are much above the maintenance costs of all our other - much older - light rail rolling stock. Each tram-kilometer costs the City of Oslo 47 NKr in maintenance costs. This is four times the European average, and the cost will continue climbing if we retain the AnsaldoBreda-provided materiel", states the report.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

If you ask AnsaldoBreda to make you a pair of shoes, you end up with 1 sandal, made of rusting faux-leather.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

No no no... You will end up with a pair of shoes. 

However, If they say it will be ready by 2 months, they actually mean 2 years and when you try them out the laces loosen, you tight them again and after 6 feet a giant hole in the sole is what you get. When you complain they assure you they'll fix it in no time. Three weeks later you get them back, but to be sure they are fit for purpose you bring them to a local shoemaker to get a second opinion.

Then the question of question of all questions. "How much did you paid for them in the end?"


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Bashing AnsaldoBreda has become a sport on this section of SSC.

Hopefully the ETR1000 project will be successful and then AnsaldoBerda can be recognized as a 1st class train manufacturer again.


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> Bashing AnsaldoBreda has become a sport on this section of SSC.


Just as much as the fact that you are the best, er... known _member_ of SSC, for a certain number of reasons.



> Hopefully the ETR1000 project will be successful and then AnsaldoBerda can be recognized as a 1st class train manufacturer again.


:smug:


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Oh subby, you so cray...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Why? What does AnsaldoBreda have to do with the ETR1000 to make them a 1st class train manufacturer? The entire technical design and engineering was done by Bombardier (ETR1000 is a Zefiro), Bombardier is part of the consortium that builds the ETR1000 and does things like quality control.

The only reason that AnsaldoBreda is even involved with the ETR1000 is because this gave Bombardier a competitive advantage over Alstom: the ETR1000 is 'designed in Italy' and 'built in Italy by an Italian company which provides jobs to Italian employees'. Alstom might have factories in Italy (ex-FIAT), but the design department is located somewhere in Paris (or maybe La Rochelle) and the money would go to France, and not Italy.

With the V250, IC4, trams for Oslo and Gothenborg, the Trenitalia E403 locomotive (which is still not doing what it was ordered for) and all the other projects that AnsaldoBreda is absolutely incapable of engineering something which even remotely resembles quality. They've also proven to be unreliable when that IC4 train showed up in Libya.

I don't want to bash AnsaldoBreda per se, but they keep on failing miserably when they attempt to deliver on their own. I'm sure AnsaldoBreda can deliver quality vehicles, they've done so before when they were part of the consortium which built the ETR 500 or when they act as a subcontractor


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Bashing AnsaldoBreda has become a sport on this section of SSC.


Praising AnsaldoBreda (against all actual facts) has become YOUR sport on just about every section of SSC.



> Hopefully the ETR1000 project will be successful and then AnsaldoBerda can be recognized as a 1st class train manufacturer again.


Ah yes, because assembling something for someone else makes you a 1st class manufacturer. Just as I am a first class manufacturer of Lego, even though I lack all design and plastic-molding skills.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## bongo-anders (Oct 26, 2008)

Is Ansaldo STS a part of this company because they seem to be doing it right.
Atleast our driverless metro in Copenhagen works very well so Ansaldo STS will also provide the trains and signalling system for the city circle line that opens in 2018.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Ansaldo STS is a sister company of AnsaldoBreda. They're both owned by Finmeccanica, the Italian space and defense giant.  Ansaldo STS is the vendor of one of the most well-known high speed safety system: Transmission Voie-Machine (TVM). It's in use on all French high speed lines, as well as on High Speed 1 in the UK and HSL 1 in Belgium. Ansaldo STS acquired TVM when they took over CSEE.

For some reason, Ansaldo STS can get its act together while AnsaldoBreda on its own is incapable of doing so. In the Copenhagen case, I'm thinking that AnsaldoBreda acted as some sort of subcontractor to STS, where STS did quality control and provided AB with detailed instruction on what to build.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

News from RailJournal.com: Washington Metro has placed an order with Kawasaki for 100 additional metro cars to replace the unreliable Breda cars delivered in the 1990s.

I've always thought AB couldn't be as bad as we all make it sound, but once you dive in a bit more it isn't even bad, it's worse.


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

*Gothenburg debacle*

Here's another translated article from the danish engineering magazine that i quoted once already. 

* * *

Rust attacks on Gothenburg's fleet of Ansaldobreda-trams are so severe that large parts of wagons bearing structure must be replaced. The beleaguered tram operator, Gothenburg Spårvägar, experienced a new low with their Ansaldobreda-trams in February when the 40 trams had to be taken out of service to be checked for rust.

37 of the carriages had so extensive rust damage that they were immediately barred from passenger service. Today, 28 of the carriages have again been authorized to transport passengers after temporary repairs paid by Ansaldobreda. But a new report from a independent auditor of Gothenburg's municipal authorities indicates that technicians from Gothenburg Spårvager estimates that it will cost 3 million SKr per tram to restore the fleet to longer-term reliability..... 

... It is only a few months since Ansaldobreda delivered the last tram to Gothenburg's transport company. The full delivery from Italy comprises 65 trams. The first Ansaldobreda tram was put into passenger service in 2006.

It is true, the city's auditors say, that for SKr 100,000. per wagon it is possible to make a number of makeshift repairs that will ensure operational stability for some time to come. But that will only be a kind of temporary solution - rust problems will arise again warn the Swedish technicians.

In addition, there's a need to replace sheets of plywood below the flooring of the trams. These are subject to significant moisture damage, and many trams are actually affected by fungal attacks due to moisture penetration.

There are currently intense negotiations between Gothenburg City Council and Ansaldobreda about who should pay the costs of a major upgrade of the equipment. The warranty period for the trams is two years. In the case of so-called "serial fault" the warranty, however, covers the equipment's entire life cycle.


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

This is not the Danish State Railways (DSB) answer to the IC4 Ansaldo scandal. :lol:

This locomotive, K582, owned by the North Zealland Veteran Railway Club, was built in 1900 by Ernesto Breda and is running on the first stage of the new high speed line out of Copenhagen, at the future station Ny Ellebjerg. .
The train is on a trip on the ring line around Copenhagen.

See the whole video here.

http://www.veterantoget.dk/galleri.aspx


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

Never give up said:


> This is not the Danish State Railways (DSB) answer to the IC4 Ansaldo scandal. :lol:
> 
> This locomotive, K582, owned by the North Zealland Veteran Railway Club, was built in 1900 by Ernesto Ansaldo and is running on the first stage of the new high speed line out of Copenhagen, at the future station Ny Ellebjerg. .
> The train is on a trip on the ring line around Copenhagen.
> ...


The Ansaldo company which in 1900 built this steam locomotive has nothing to do with the AnsaldoBreda company which has recently built the IC4.._and_ the Fyra Albatross V250.


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

joseph1951 said:


> The Ansaldo company which in 1900 built this steam locomotive has nothing to do with the AnsaldoBreda company which has recently built the IC4.._and_ the Fyra Albatross V250.


I'm sorry, I should have written Ernesto *Breda*, not Ernesto Ansaldo. :bash:


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## 압둘라-爱- LOVE (May 17, 2012)

Kingdom of Saudi Arabia


Princess Nora University metro


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

VRT (Flemish public broadcast) has received shocking photos of damage which happened the AnsaldoBreda-built V250 trainsets after a trip.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

AlexNL said:


> VRT (Flemish public broadcast) has received shocking photos of damage which happened the AnsaldoBreda-built V250 trainsets after a trip.


This is what I mean when I say EU should blacklist AnsaldoBreda, this is not even poor construction, but outright fraud.

The politicians that handled the public tender should be publicly flogged and given lengthy jail terms for fraudulent handling of public funds.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ There is no blacklist for train manufacturers (only for airline and ship operators AFAIK).


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Marc Descheemaecker (CEO SNCB) listed some of the issues with the V250 trains:
- Metal strip which came loose
- Problems with doors and stairs
- One train suffered from a battery fire while in the yard
- The braking system was designed for 160 km/h and is inadequate for use at speeds of 250 km/h.
- Lots of problems with influx of water, causing rust
- Corrosion on nearly-new axles
- Essential cables (electrical, hydraulical) mounted on the bottom side of the train without any protection - ballast caused severe damage
- The rasters on the bottom of the train were much too thin and open, this caused all kinds of problems
- Snow blocked the horn of the train, rendering it useless
- NedTrain (rolling stock maintenance) uses a list of "penalty points" to determine if a train is fit for duty. If a train set gatherings more than 10 points, it isn't allowed to enter service. 5 points are given for design things (such as a broken light bulb), 10 for stability issues, 20 for safety issues. When thoroughly investigating half (!) a V250, 1157 points were awarded. On another train, this went up to over 2000.


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

Never give up said:


> I'm sorry, I should have written Ernesto *Breda*, not Ernesto Ansaldo. :bash:


That' ok. Still, Breda ws a pivate company which strived to make good locos and, later, good electric trains. Some of the elctric fast trains build dy Breda, such as ETR200 were in service for over 50 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FS_Class_ETR_200

Unfortunately, todays AnsalboBreda bear no resemblance to the historical Breda company


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## SAS 16 (Apr 9, 2013)

AlexNL said:


> Marc Descheemaecker (CEO SNCB) listed some of the issues with the V250 trains:
> - Metal strip which came loose
> - Problems with doors and stairs
> - One train suffered from a battery fire while in the yard
> ...


:rofl::applause:


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Any railway company with respect to it's customers would blacklist AnsaldoBreda for future orders. The Norwegian Railways who have already done so a couple of years ago should be a good example for other countries/operators.


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## Busfotodotnl (Mar 18, 2009)

Visual problems of the AnsaldoBreda V250-trains

http://media.rtl.nl/media/financien/rtlz/2013/NMBS-fyra.pdf


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ There is no blacklist for train manufacturers (only for airline and ship operators AFAIK).


AnsaldoBreda is a good place to start, then.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Silly_Walks said:


> AnsaldoBreda is a good place to start, then.


Would the Italian government let such list be established first place? It has interests on the success of Finmeccanica.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Would the Italian government let such list be established first place? It has interests on the success of Finmeccanica.


If they had any interest in the succes of this company, they would have made them make decent products.


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## erka (Apr 26, 2003)

Terrible, just terrible. Very good decision of the Belgian Railways and the Dutch should do the same.


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> Marc Descheemaecker (CEO SNCB) listed some of the issues with the V250 trains:
> - Metal strip which came loose
> - Problems with doors and stairs
> - One train suffered from a battery fire while in the yard
> ...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

M-NL said:


> I've always thought AB couldn't be as bad as we all make it sound, but once you dive in a bit more it isn't even bad, it's worse.


One picture speaks a thousand words and in this case there are several pictures...

Another interesting point from the presentation not mentioned here: The 9 delivered trains may look the same on the outside but 'under the bonnet' they're not. AB has let their mechanics assemble each train as they pleased and not according to the plans. What baffles me is that the people from NS did not notice that and have accepted delivery of a faulty product (Especially since the IC4 debacle was already well unfolding when they took delivery. That should have raised the alarm and triggered extensive delivery checks)


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The IC4 debacle was already well underway when NS received the first V250. Two years ago, Atkins has performed a second opinion on the IC4 - just as Mott MacDonald did with the V250. The Atkins report is available here. On page 29, you can find a table showing statistics about component breakdowns on board the IC4. Lots of faults and casualties were caused by long term storage of components, which led to a loss of quality.

Back in 2009, Railway Gazette reported that DSB had reached a settlement with AnsaldoBreda regarding the IC4 project. Railway Gazette also wrote:


> DSB reports that the biggest problem with the IC4s is the train management software, which will need 'substantial upgrading'. It also notes a number of production faults, blamed on each set being 'hand-built' ahead of series production.


So, back in 2009, it was known that 14 of the 83 IC4's delivered varied greatly. This should've been a warning to the V250 project team.


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## Busfotodotnl (Mar 18, 2009)

Dutch Railways also willing to cancel the V250-order. 

The end of AnsaldoBreda?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Will AnsaldoBreda survive this? Good question... according to SNCB's report, AnsaldoBreda's financial situation is horrible. With NS and SNCB backing out of the V250 order and starting up legal procedures, this might very well worsen for them.

I am curious to see if the deals with Bombardier/Trenitalia and the Honolulu metro have provided the company with enough cashflow to be able to survive.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

I just want AnsaldoBreda to have enough cashflow to pay back its customers. After that they can fall in Vesuvius for all I care.


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

Busfotodotnl said:


> Dutch Railways also willing to cancel the V250-order.
> 
> The end of AnsaldoBreda?




http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/sncb-pulls-out-of-v250-deal.html


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## Peloso (May 17, 2006)

Never give up said:


> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/sncb-pulls-out-of-v250-deal.html


Ansaldo said the decision was "baffling" and that "it would protect their interests and their image". Now this is typical macaroni behavior. Like they usually say on macaroni newspapers, in order to fuel ill-advised patriotism, here we got "one more instance of ITALIAN EXCELLENCE". :lol:


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## bolg (Aug 21, 2012)

AlexNL said:


> Will AnsaldoBreda survive this? Good question... according to SNCB's report, AnsaldoBreda's financial situation is horrible. With NS and SNCB backing out of the V250 order and starting up legal procedures, this might very well worsen for them.
> 
> I am curious to see if the deals with Bombardier/Trenitalia and the Honolulu metro have provided the company with enough cashflow to be able to survive.


Yikes. Ansaldo are set to deliver a new signaling system to the Stockholm metro red line in 2013/2014. :bash:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

bolg said:


> Yikes. Ansaldo are set to deliver a new signaling system to the Stockholm metro red line in 2013/2014. :bash:


Anslado-STS is a reputable engineer company. I doubt it would be let to go bankrupt. Even if the whole group was to collapse, the STS unit could be sold with a hefty profit to some competitor.


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## bolg (Aug 21, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> Anslado-STS is a reputable engineer company. I doubt it would be let to go bankrupt. Even if the whole group was to collapse, the STS unit could be sold with a hefty profit to some competitor.


I'm not worried by the end product or that they won't deliver due to bankruptcy, but of delays.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Ansaldo STS has a good reputation when it comes to signalling and train control. They are one of the leading vendors of ETCS hardware and software, apart from that they have another gem in their portfolio: TVM. A couple of years ago, Ansaldo STS bought CSEE, the original vendor of TVM, the signalling system used on all French high speed lines and on some lines outside France as well (such as the Channel Tunnel and High Speed 1). Even if the whole of Finmeccanica were to collapse, Ansaldo STS would survive.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

The defense-related divisions are doing fine as well. Though they took a hit with Tunisian and Libyan contracts 2 years ago.


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/06/05/ansaldobreda-blames-irresponsible-driving-for-fyra-failure/


Hooooooo boy

"How dare you drive our train at its designed speed?"


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Unfortunately there are partly right on this one. During the heavy snow SNCF limited TGVs to 160 km/h and DB and JR do a similar thing. HSA didn't. However I seriously doubt that at reduced speeds there wouldn't have been snow intrusion into the electric cabinets and clogging of the horns.


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## Tony_H1 (Jan 31, 2011)

It took Metrolink engineers in Manchester UK nearly 7 years to correct all the faults on one of the second generation 2000 series LRVS that AnsaldoBreda delivered in 1999. 

From delivery in 1999 4 out of 6 of these vehicles are now permanently retired!

Of the first series a vast majority are retired after little over 20 years service.

In Birmingham UK there are also 15 of these T69 type AnsaldoBreda LRVS. Every single one of them is wired up differently, and normally at least 2 are out of service long term or being used for spares, as it normally takes AB 8 to 10 weeks to deliver parts!

These trams are also being replaced shortly after a lifespan of a little over 10 years!


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

M-NL said:


> Unfortunately there are partly right on this one. During the heavy snow SNCF limited TGVs to 160 km/h and DB and JR do a similar thing. HSA didn't. However I seriously doubt that at reduced speeds there wouldn't have been snow intrusion into the electric cabinets and clogging of the horns.


This is not entirely true. HSA did limit the speed to 160 km/h on the HSL during snow periods. I was on some V250 services that were restricted.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

And besides, driving at 250 km/h in some snow could only be responsible for very few of the faults that were discovered... what about the other 2000 faults?? All by irresponsible driving? PUH-LEASE.


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## Busfotodotnl (Mar 18, 2009)

More pics from dutch railways investigation


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Maarten Otto said:


> This is not entirely true. HSA did limit the speed to 160 km/h on the HSL during snow periods. I was on some V250 services that were restricted.


As I understand it now ANY speed would have been considered irresponsible by AB when it comes to driving in snowy conditions.



Silly_Walks said:


> And besides, driving at 250 km/h in some snow could only be responsible for very few of the faults that were discovered... what about the other 2000 faults?? All by irresponsible driving? PUH-LEASE.


Sounds like Iraqi minister of information tactics to me. I would very much like to see how wrong usage can cause poor workmanship.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Damage on the runs from Belgium:


The same cables ponted out above, broken and worn afther a month of usage; doors that fall off, plates that can't take friction of the wind...










Underneath the train; heavy damage from just driving at the regular speed these trains should operate (160km/h during snow)


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## Busfotodotnl (Mar 18, 2009)

M-NL said:


> As I understand it now ANY speed would have been considered irresponsible by AB when it comes to driving in snowy conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like Iraqi minister of information tactics to me. I would very much like to see how wrong usage can cause poor workmanship.


According to AnsaldoBreda NS did drive 250 with the V250 Fyra during snowy conditions


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Ok so they can prove that I guess. Still, I don't think such big damage is accepatble even when driving 250km/h in snow. The train should have been build for that, they are expensive enough.

Does it somewhere says in the manual you can't drive 250 in snow?


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

Silly_Walks said:


> And besides, driving at 250 km/h in some snow could only be responsible for very few of the faults that were discovered... what about the other 2000 faults?? All by irresponsible driving? PUH-LEASE.


edit


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

Silly_Walks said:


> And besides, driving at 250 km/h in some snow could only be responsible for very few of the faults that were discovered... what about the other 2000 faults?? All by irresponsible driving? PUH-LEASE.


Especially the rust formation /corrosion on bogies....hno:


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

Those pictures... :cripes:


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

437.001 said:


> Those pictures... :cripes:


IMHO AnsaldoBreda has no excuse.


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## Peloso (May 17, 2006)

Busfotodotnl said:


> According to AnsaldoBreda NS did drive 250 with the V250 Fyra during snowy conditions
> http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k639/busfotodotnl/250indesneeuw.jpg


:lol:
Corporate macaroniness at its best. What does using trains at designed speed, albeit with snow, have to do with the flaws highlighted in posts
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=103819388&postcount=105
and
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=103823819&postcount=109
?


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## willele (Jul 15, 2005)

SNCB and NS has no excuse!!!!!!!!
Have used the train as house vacuum cleaner .


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^ True, they have no excuse.

They should have known that they were buying trains from an incompetent company that builds trains that break down from every little bump in the road... eh... I mean tracks.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

willele said:


> SNCB and NS has no excuse!!!!!!!!
> Have used the train as house vacuum cleaner .


:troll:


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Momo1435 said:


> ^^ True, they have no excuse.
> 
> They should have known that they were buying trains from an incompetent company that builds trains that break down from every little bump in the road... eh... I mean tracks.


I think when the order was done, the problems with Ansaldo Breda weren't known yet. The company has a delay in orders of what, 4-5 years? These trains should have been delivered so many years ago and then when they are finally finished, they are just a heap of metal and wiring. I'm gladd at least Siemens is delivering great commuter trains to Belgium now.(Desiro)

In the meanwhile, Sweden and Denmark are put up with lightrail systems that fall apart also made by Ansaldo Breda. The floors just rust out afther a year lol

I guess it's bad maintanance, bacause that's all the Italians have to say.

Ow yes don't forget Willele's comment two. They used their lightrail trains as vacuum cleaners!


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## Silver Swordsman (Nov 8, 2011)

And how exactly do you use a train as a vacuum cleaner??


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## Galro (Aug 9, 2010)

joshsam said:


> I think when the order was done, the problems with Ansaldo Breda weren't known yet. The company has a delay in orders of what, 4-5 years? These trains should have been delivered so many years ago and then when they are finally finished, they are just a heap of metal and wiring. I'm gladd at least Siemens is delivering great commuter trains to Belgium now.(Desiro)
> 
> In the meanwhile, *Sweden and Denmark* are put up with lightrail systems that fall apart also made by Ansaldo Breda. The floors just rust out afther a year lol
> 
> ...


I think you are thinking of Norway and Sweden. Denmark have trains by them which have been put into traffic between Italy and Libya.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Silver Swordsman said:


> And how exactly do you use a train as a vacuum cleaner??



I think he is implying now that we used the train on track that weren't ready or something like that so that Fyra had to take all the first hits on what as wrong with the tracks...
Maybe he means something like that.

Infact, the tracks have been ready for a long time and have been used by 200km/h Belgian cummuter trains for years.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Galro said:


> I think you are thinking of Norway and Sweden. Denmark have trains by them which have been put into traffic between Italy and Libya.


Ok I must have mistaken.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

joshsam said:


> I think when the order was done, the problems with Ansaldo Breda weren't known yet. The company has a delay in orders of what, 4-5 years? These trains should have been delivered so many years ago and then when they are finally finished, they are just a heap of metal and wiring. I'm gladd at least Siemens is delivering great commuter trains to Belgium now.(Desiro)


The Fyra trains have been ordered in 2004, back then the Norwegian railways had lots of problems with their new AnsaldoBreda trains for several years already. The Danish IC4 trains were also scheduled to enter service in 2003, they were already delayed by then.

So AnsaldoBreda already had a bad reputation back then and that was widely known in the railway business.


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## suburbicide (May 4, 2012)

Galro said:


> I think you are thinking of Norway and Sweden. Denmark have trains by them which have been put into traffic between Italy and Libya.


The Copenhagen metro has trains from AnsaldoBreda as well, but I haven't heard anything about them rusting away.


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## suburbicide (May 4, 2012)

Momo1435 said:


> The Fyra trains have been ordered in 2004, back then the Norwegian railways had lots of problems with their new AnsaldoBreda trains for several years already.
> So AnsaldoBreda already had a bad reputation back then and that was widely known in the railway business.


The Type 72 trains delivered in the early 2000s to the Norwegian state railways (NSB) did have some serious problems intitally, primarily because they were too heavy and had to be rebuilt. The trains were delayed by years. But these trains actually work fine now, and a spokesman recently stated that they consider them among their best trains ever.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Silver Swordsman said:


> And how exactly do you use a train as a vacuum cleaner??



Just look at the nose of this thing :banana:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Will NS send a V250 to the railway museum in Utrecht or not?


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Some photos form AB's Napoli plant: http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/viewtopic.php?p=479002#p479002


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## Think (Dec 30, 2007)

The serious incidents of AnsaldoBreda in Madrid metro started in 2002, when the 7000 series were delivered.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I had misstated something on this thread before. AnsaldoBreda actually won the contract to supply trains o Honolulu Rail Transit, a long heavy elevated rail line under construction in Hawaii.

These are the trains 










.


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> I had misstated something on this thread before. AnsaldoBreda actually won the contract to supply trains o Honolulu Rail Transit, a long heavy elevated rail line under construction in Hawaii.
> 
> These are the trains
> 
> ...


What has this fact got to do with AnsaldoBreda (Fyra) Albatros V250? Is this the demostration that the Albatros V250 are good trains?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

joseph1951 said:


> What has this fact got to do with AnsaldoBreda (Fyra) Albatros V250? Is this the demostration that the Albatros V250 are good trains?


It has nothing to do with the V250. Isn't this thread named MISC | Ansaldo Breda? Or is it specific for the V250 project?


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## joseph1951 (Aug 19, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> Will NS send a V250 to the railway museum in Utrecht or not?


Probably they will be sent to the skrapyard or given for free to Trenitalia/FS Group or the Fyra Albatros Carriages will be recycled into a very hybrid Bombardier-Zefiro Etr1000-AnsaldoBreda Albatros -FyraV250, to be used in Italy as Regional High Speed Trains.


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## 437.001 (Mar 27, 2009)

Coccodrillo said:


> Some photos form AB's *Napoli* plant: http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/viewtopic.php?p=479002#p479002


Did you just say "Napoli" (Naples)?? :sly:

Should we understand that the Fyra were built there, and if so, should we understand other things about that? :sly:


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

All Fyra V250 trains were built in Pistoia, just like DSB's IC4.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Ansaldo Breda has also facilities in Palermo and Reggio Calabria (this one I think is has been idle for a while, but not sure).


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## willele (Jul 15, 2005)

for precision listen here!
http://youtu.be/2IvKUxIJ9yQ


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## Peloso (May 17, 2006)

Oh my. They reject all of the accusations, and insist the operators are at fault. Manfellotto and the idiotic AB management clearly do not understand that this way they are only infuriating their clients more. They even tried to crack solidarity between the Belgians and the Dutch by claiming that "the Dutch have been more flexible on this matter". As an icing on the cake, they obtained the Italian government's "support" in the form of special talks on the matter with their peers of the interested countries. Di Rupo, Belgian Prime minister (of Italian origins) has already answered making clear that "this is a merely industrial issue". What could one expect after the aforementioned "clever move"? hno:


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## Ribarca (Jan 28, 2005)

The main question is why did they pick the Ansaldo Breda for the Fyra. Just because they were the cheapest or are is there more going on as Alstom has implied.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Di rupo was not in power when ansaldobreda was chosen. More however, di rupo has no power if the flemish government thinks otherwise.

The dumping of the fyra and not paying any euro to ansaldo breda is been mainly pushed by the flemisch government. The walloon government has been suprisingly silent on the matter.


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## wbrm (Sep 9, 2008)

joshsam said:


> Di rupo was not in power when ansaldobreda was chosen. More however, di rupo has no power if the flemish government thinks otherwise.
> 
> The dumping of the fyra and not paying any euro to ansaldo breda is been mainly pushed by the flemisch government. The walloon government has been suprisingly silent on the matter.


The Flemish government has nothing to do with this. It's completely federal. For the Belgian part that is.


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## Thorum (Mar 27, 2012)

Just in the news: Ansaldo is one of three partners that's gonna make the new Riyadh subway system. FIngers crossed (for the Saudis) they're the junior partner.

http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20130730_00675818


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

No need to keep your fingers crossed: This concerns Ansaldo STS, not AnsaldoBreda.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Alstom will do the rolling stock if I'm not mistaken.


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## Rayancito (Oct 18, 2012)

M-NL said:


> No need to keep your fingers crossed: This concerns Ansaldo STS, not AnsaldoBreda.


 Both companies are involved in different packages. Metro trains are different from high speed trains, *obviously*.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Rayancito said:


> Both companies are involved in different packages. Metro trains are different from high speed trains, *obviously*.


But AnsaldoBreda has also managed to deliver horrendous trams and metro's... it seems to be their thing.


AnsaldoSTS is a different story, and actually has a good track record with their signalling systems.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Thank goodness as their signalling systems are currently being rolled out on the red line of the Stockholm tunnelbana.


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## superdupont (Jul 30, 2013)

Silly_Walks said:


> But AnsaldoBreda has also managed to deliver horrendous trams and metro's...


 which are your fav trams and metros..?


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

Yesterday a Dutch newspaper announced that on monday (16/9) Ansaldo Breda will give a press conference about a improved V250 which AB did just confirmed at there twitter acount.


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

* Foreign groups interested in Ansaldo STS, AnsaldoBreda

* Unions oppose ceding control to foreign groups

MILAN, Sept 23 (Reuters) - Finmeccanica told unions on Monday it is in advanced talks to sell its prized gas turbine unit AnsaldoEnergia to Korea-based Doosan Heavy Industries, a move that would help Italy's defence and aerospace group cut its large debt pile.

At a meeting with unions, Chief Executive Alessandro Pansa also said the state-backed group was in talks with foreign manufacturing companies for the possible sale of unprofitable train maker AnsaldoBreda and rail technology group AnsaldoSTS, two other units that are part of Finmeccanica's disposal plan.

Shares in Finmeccanica rose as much as 4.5 percent after the updateon a sale disposal plan worth around 1 billion euros that has been in the works for more than a year.

Rating agencies Fitch, Standard and Poor's and Moody's have all cut Finmeccanica's debt to 'junk' after political wrangling and a corruption investigation into an Indian helicopter tender slowed down the disposal plan.

In a statement, unions said they opposed the sale of the units to foreign groups unless prospective buyers gave clear reassurances that jobs and key technological know-how would stay in Italy, now in its second year of recession.

"We believe the Italian government should immediately get involved. We ask the government to clarify once and for all its position with regards to the sale process," the unions said.

Unions would like Italy's state-holding Cassa Depositi e Prestiti or its Italian Strategic Fund investment arm to buy a core stake in the three Finmeccanica's units to avoid ceding control to foreign players.

*A union source said one of the options on the table was to sell a portion of Ansaldo STS together with AnsaldoBreda to make the latter more appealing to a prospective buyer.
*
Finmeccanica had 3.4 billion euros in net debt at end-2012.

Source: reuters


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

Denmark has now recieved it´s last IC4 train set (out of 82) except the one which Berlesconi gave to Gadaffi, and IC2 set out of 23 from Ansaldobreda.
They now occupy approx. 7½ km. of track at different locations around the country, here at the Copenhagen Airport depot.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

are they operating normally now?

I was thinking... maybe Ansaldo Breda can sell the V250 to another buyer after fixing its problems?


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## phantom23 (Aug 8, 2009)

On the other hand - who'd like to buy them with such history?


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)




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## terminal (Sep 14, 2007)

well compared to the Fyra.....this Frecciarossa is fucking awsome


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

terminal said:


> well compared to the Fyra.....this Frecciarossa is fucking awsome


That's what you get when all you let AnsaldoBreda do is tighten some bolts.


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## terminal (Sep 14, 2007)

Silly_Walks said:


> That's what you get when all you let AnsaldoBreda do is tighten some bolts.


maybe u are right but maybe if the result is that to tight all those bolts.... AB & Bombardier forever


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## sanarsoe (Oct 8, 2013)

I get many information's to here.Thanks fora shearing.


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## Alargule (Feb 21, 2005)

Yousa welcome, JarJar.


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

From Jan Duin's page on Twitter.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Old. I think that has been posted on the HSL -Zuid thread.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

Gothenburg City takes the conflict with AnsaldoBreda to the arbitration tribunal.

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/goteborg/1.2214161-rostiga-sparvagnar-till-skiljedomstol

I can't bother to translate the text but is basically says that the trams Gothenburg bought from AnsaldoBreda are a rusting pile of junk and that reparing them will cost 150-200 million Swedish Krona, ~17 to 22 million Euros.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Hawaii also has big problems with AnsaldoBreda at the moment.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Silly_Walks said:


> Hawaii also has big problems with AnsaldoBreda at the moment.


What happened with thier order?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Silly_Walks said:


> Hawaii also has big problems with AnsaldoBreda at the moment.


They agreed to have fixed-length 4-car trains (instead of starting with 2-car trains that could be coupled later one).

The change will avoid delays, since the coupling mechanism wasn't working on tests. The total number or cars (80) won't change, but they will all be built as 4-car sets. So they'll get 20 4-car sets instead of 40 2-car sets that could be expanded later. 

As a result, some modification to station designs will be done, making them all fit for 4-car train operation. The frequency of service, on its start, will also be halved from 150 to 300 seconds.

Bombardier doesn't agree with this modification and is said to be going to sue again (it lost the train bid to AnsaldoBreda). 

So interesting developments are coming. 

Only thing I really don't like is that some influential people in Hawaii are picking up on the V250 controversy as a way to justify a premature cancellation of contracts and re-tendering of the trains to some other manufacturer already, as the politicians all over Oahu could become worried of a Fyra-style fallout there (line ready but trains not able to enter service due to technical issues and integration problems).


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I can see why politicians are worried over the Fyra drama: the cancellation of the V250 trains and the associated legal fees pose a big risk to AnsaldoBreda. There is a chance that AnsaldoBreda will have to reimburse SNCB and NS for the full amount received so far and that they will also have to pay for damages suffered by the railways such as alternative transport, marketing, brand damage, etc.

This could result in additional losses of hundreds of millions for AnsaldoBreda, this for a company that has been suffering from heavy year-over-year losses. Losing the Fyra case could jeopardize the existence of the company.


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> They agreed to have fixed-length 4-car trains (instead of starting with 2-car trains that could be coupled later one).
> 
> The change will avoid delays, since the coupling mechanism wasn't working on tests. The total number or cars (80) won't change, but they will all be built as 4-car sets. So they'll get 20 4-car sets instead of 40 2-car sets that could be expanded later.
> 
> ...


And this even before the AB trains start breakind down? :troll:


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## The Westerner (Feb 25, 2007)

Just passed by AB's HQ. There's a V250 Fyra parked in the yard.
Since I was driving I couldn't take a deep look at it, but passing over the fact that it's yucky, it seemed a new train.
AFAIK it's retired from service since June, anybody knows why that trainset is there?


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Only 9 out of 19 sets have been delivered and entered service for a few months from autumn 2012 to January/February 2013, so I suppose you saw one of the sets that never reached Benelux and thus never entered service.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

At least one V250 train set is in Pistoia which AnsaldoBreda is still working on. A couple of months ago they presented their solution to the "winter problem": a snow plough mounted underneath.


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## The Westerner (Feb 25, 2007)

AlexNL said:


> At least one V250 train set is in Pistoia which AnsaldoBreda is still working on. A couple of months ago they presented their solution to the "winter problem": a snow plough mounted underneath.


what a smart invention...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I keep wondering what will happen with the V250 trains after all. I still hope somehow they get into service after issues are fixed. Maybe on domestic Dutch services. Maybe sold to some international open-access carrier. Maybe NTV could buy the trains at fire-sale prices to operate open-access services in Italy


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Well, I keep hearing there aren't enough doors for domestic service (they want faster boarding times for domestic service), so it seems unlikely.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I think that NS will be forced to pay for the trains they already accepted from AnsaldoBreda, but I don't think we will ever see the V250 trains re-enter service. In the half-year results for the first half of 2013 NS embedded a major loss for the V250 trains, i.e. in their own bookkeeping the trains are already fully depreciated.

Should AnsaldoBreda win the legal battle, then I expect NS to have the trains scrapped on a short notice. The trains are useless to NS: they can't be used for Dutch-Belgian services (no safety certificate) and they can't be used on domestic services either because SNCB and NS publicly said the trains are be unsuitable and, worse of all, unsafe.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I was wondering... maybe NS and SNCB could solve their grievances with AnsaldoBreda by exchanging the V250 order for a smaller quantity of ETR1000 trains...

It would be nice to see ETR1000s running over HSL-4/Zuid.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

They should ask Bombardier then...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Coccodrillo said:


> They should ask Bombardier then...


ETR1000 is a joint project between AnsaldoBreda and Bombardier.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

It is mainly (if not only) a Bombardier project, even if built also by AnsaldoBreda, so I doubt AB could build and sell this kind of trains alone.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

And I'm not too sure if Trenitalia would agree (as the Frecciarossa 1000 is built for them), nor any of the competition offices. All that aside, I would love to see a ETR 1000 on HSL-Zuid.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

And even if AB could technically build a Zefiro alone, I suppose Bombardier still has patents on the blueprints...


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## LUCAFUSAR (Mar 31, 2009)

I still can't understand why NS hadn't chosen the Pendolino or something like the CAF built for the Turkish Railways.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

The excuse every time is that they chose the only valid offer left... but when only AB was left, they should have realized they "better go back to the drawing board". By the time they would have looked at how to proceed, trains like the (non-tilting) New Pendolino, etc. would have been on the market, providing much better, reliable alternatives than AB.

But no no, in their rush and need for a cheap solution, they chose the worst of all options, and we see what that brings: still no 250 km/h service, money down the drain, still more money needing to be spent for a weak 160 km/h service, and maybe, MAYBE 200 km/h service somewhere down the line, after even more money spent.

They should just give Amsterdam-Brussels to Arriva and let them run the service with New Pendolino's.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

After the V250 collapse, Alstom offered the Pendolino to NS: "We're building Pendolino's for PKP, so if you want we can build some for the Netherlands as well". NS refused the offer as they deemed it "unappropriate at this time". 

When AnsaldoBreda was the only remaining party interested to build the trains, time had already progressed to somewhere around 2003. At that time the infrastructure was still on schedule and the estimated date on which the infrastructure would be ready was still the same: April 1st, 2007. The Dutch government pressured HSA: trains or no trains, the concession would start when the infrastructure is ready which would also mean that HSA would have to pay the high concession fee. 

Re-tendering the rolling stock would mean years of delay while AnsaldoBreda promised they could deliver the rolling stock on time. HSA was faced with a difficult decision: either trust an unexperienced manufacturer, or pay boatloads of money (€ 148 millions/year) without the income to back it.

Looking back at all of this, more than 10 years later, is easy: the decision made by HSA was the wrong one and everyone has to pay a hefty price. NS lost millions of euros to acquire rolling stock and now in court cases, the government still does not have the envisioned high speed services and the passenger is screwed over most of all: in a few years they will get a train which is slower than the train as it ran before.


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## LUCAFUSAR (Mar 31, 2009)

What a mess!

Sincerely, as an Italian, I feel really ashamed, but I can see that also the NS had contributed to create this situation.

I also think that the New Pendolino will be the best choice for the NS. Maybe, after huge compensation from AnsaldoBreda (i.e. selling Ansaldo STS by Finmeccanica to GE and/or taking money form the pockets of italian taxpayers with some "special purpose tax") they will redo the tender in a better way, so more competitors will participate.

However, seeing the photo of the tagged V250 in the previous pages (I still can't believe that such an ugly train was designed by Pininfarina), the Pendolino has the fault of being "Made in Italy" too...:lol:


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## 33Hz (Jul 29, 2006)

Silly_Walks said:


> They should just give Amsterdam-Brussels to Arriva and let them run the service with New Pendolino's.


What is to stop an open access operator coming along and doing this properly?

Maybe NTV should get some more AGVs and launch a proper 300 km/h service. Then the Italians can run it with French trains :lol:


I can't understand why on earth they think mixing 160 km/h services with 300 km/h Thalyses on an expensive high speed line is in any way sensible or acceptable.


Heck we've even seen in another thread that original TGVs are being scrapped. It must be cheaper for them to get those and renovate the traction package.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

According to Arriva it will be nearly impossible to run an open access service on the HSL under the current access conditions. Basically it comes down to having to negotiate a deal with HSA (NS) to run an open access service, but by doing so Arriva would actually help HSA (NS) to pay for their concession!


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## LUCAFUSAR (Mar 31, 2009)

Excuse me, but what's the maximum speed allowed on this line?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

HSL-Zuid is built for 300 kph.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

AlexNL said:


> According to Arriva it will be nearly impossible to run an open access service on the HSL under the current access conditions. Basically it comes down to having to negotiate a deal with HSA (NS) to run an open access service, but by doing so Arriva would actually help HSA (NS) to pay for their concession!


Everything about HSL-Zuid from the building of the infrastructure, tendering the concession and the acquisition of rolling stock is questionable. This calls for a thorough investigation by the EU, alongside the dutch parliamentary inquiry that is already going to be conducted. Unfortunately these will take a lot of time to conduct and will very likely be eventually ignored, but at least we will know what happened.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ What was wrong with the infrastructure building?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Questionable choices were made by the government that drove up the price of the infrastructure. For example, the Groene Hart-tunnel which cost a billion to build.

Then there's the case of the noise barriers: when the infrastructure was nearly completed it turned out that the barriers that were placed along the track in Brabant were of an inferior quality. The contractor refused to replace them, insisting that the government would pay for this. The government did end up paying, but went to the court of appeal at the same time.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

33Hz said:


> Maybe NTV should get some more AGVs and launch a proper 300 km/h service. Then the Italians can run it with French trains :lol:


They would have to be able to run under 1800 V DC though...



> I can't understand why on earth they think mixing 160 km/h services with 300 km/h Thalyses on an expensive high speed line is in any way sensible or acceptable.


Running only a hdnfull of Thalyses on this expensive line makes even less sense. The line is there, So better use it.



> Heck we've even seen in another thread that original TGVs are being scrapped. It must be cheaper for them to get those and renovate the traction package.


You'd need more than a renovation of the traciton package. Building a train that can handle two DC voltages is possible, but this must be taking in to acount at the start of the design. Adding a second DC voltage afterwards is not trivial.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Some follow-up on Honolulu situation.

There are some technical advisers to Honolulu Rail recommending it to "ditch AnsaldoBreda while you can", as it is rumored in Oahu. Some people quite didn't like the selection of trains from AnsaldoBreda for it being a company embroiled in some problems with light rail products in other cities.

The original intention, as we know, was to run 2-car trains on 150 sec. daytime interval. At a later stage in the project, cars would be coupled to from 3-car or 4-car trainsets. Problem is that AnsaldoBreda came up with a train that would require extensive work for being reconfigured, not the smooth easy shuffling the operator expected. However, AnsaldoBreda claims to have fulfilled the requirements of the contract and says the expectation of easy reconfiguration of cars was unrealistic from start.

Shall we remember Honolulu rail will be a UTO (unmanned train operation) system, with limited workforce expense so to allow, from start, high frequencies to the line, avoiding the usual pitfall of new urban rail services - intervals are too long, reducing attractiveness of the system. 

A decision has been made to operate all trainsets on their final intended length of 4-cars from start. This means daytime interval is halved to 300 seconds (it is designed so that it will be later decreased as the system expanded up to a final daytime interval of 4-car sets running every 105 seconds).

Now they are estimating the initial ridership will be 9% lower due to reduced frequency/increased interval.

Heavy construction is going full-on meanwhile.


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