# TORONTO | Streetcars



## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

Yes, SF does. Very fantastic.


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## You are to blame (Oct 14, 2004)

*some more ROWs pictures*


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## Smartboy (Oct 5, 2004)

I'm sorry!!! But in my country only use public transit who don't have money to buy a car (here the cars are very expensive and most peolpe don't earn much money ). And i've heard in Canada verybody have e can bye a car.


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## You are to blame (Oct 14, 2004)

Smartboy said:


> I'm sorry!!! But in my country only use public transit who don't have money to buy a car (here the cars are very expensive and most peolpe don't earn much money ). And i've heard in Canada verybody have e can bye a car.


Well everyone (rich to poor) pretty much uses PT except people in the suburbs and owning a car doesn't mean people stop using PT (well in toronto) PT has many advantages over a car in toronto.


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## nikko (Jul 23, 2004)

DrJoe said:


> bad pic, but it shows row


LA, 1979 


do you know where the pic was taken?


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

LegEnd said:


> the streetcars in Toronto are great, used them all the time when i was there, made me wish we could get more stuff like that in britain.
> 
> Is it there or san fransisco that has the old cars from all over the place?


Quite possibly you are thinking of the Market Street Railway in San Francisco:

Home Page:
http://www.streetcar.org/index.html

Index page for pictures and descriptions of the streetcar fleet:
http://www.streetcar.org/fline/streetcars/index.html

The following are just a few of the streetcars featured at the above website:

1912 Moscow/Orel Tram









1927 Osaka Tram









1929 Porto (Portugal) Tram









1934 Blookpool (England) Boat Tram









1929/1930 Melbourne (Australia) Tram









Philadelphia PCC


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## Gil (Mar 11, 2005)

nikko said:


> LA, 1979
> 
> 
> do you know where the pic was taken?


The pic was taken on the 510 Spadina route just south of (leaving) the Bremner stop (aka SkyDome, now Rogers Centre). The stop is now surrounded by condominium towers.


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## nikko (Jul 23, 2004)

Gil said:


> The pic was taken on the 510 Spadina route just south of (leaving) the Bremner stop (aka SkyDome, now Rogers Centre). The stop is now surrounded by condominium towers.


Oh wow, looks so very different...


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## Palal (Sep 6, 2004)

It's called SF Muni. MSR is a Streetcar advocacy group. Another company with the same name operated half of the Streetcars in SF before it merged with MUNI in the '50s. Half of the streetcars you showed are no longer running for one reason or another, but we do have quite a large number of PCCs, Milano Peter Witts, and other historic streetcars.



greg_christine said:


> Quite possibly you are thinking of the Market Street Railway in San Francisco:
> 
> Home Page:
> http://www.streetcar.org/index.html
> ...


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## hylaride (Feb 9, 2005)

*Different culture*



Smartboy said:


> I'm sorry!!! But in my country only use public transit who don't have money to buy a car (here the cars are very expensive and most peolpe don't earn much money ). And i've heard in Canada verybody have e can bye a car.


Don't worry about it too much, you asked a question, and you get an answer. Amazing how different a simple think like public transit can be in two different countries, eh? 

Anyways, as to whether public transit is only for the "poor" or not largely depends on the city. In large and/or dense cities, like Montreal, Vancouver, or Toronto public transit plays an important role. Here in Toronto, most people don't drive into the city unless they are either exceedingly wealthy or have to. There are numberous reasons why you'd take transit, such as it being safe, reasonably clean, faster (during rush hour), and usually cheaper. If you work downtown, parking is at least (at LEAST) $15, a day, versus about $3/day if you buy a metropass. This is on top of gas, insurance, time, etc. The TTC has large cummuter lots at the end of it's subway lines which have free parking if you have a metropass. Toronto also has an extensive heavy rail commuter service by GO Transit. It takes more people into the city on a workday than the 2 highways that go downtown, do. Some people drive occassionally. I have a friend who lives in the suburbs and works downtown, but during the summer leaves early from work on fridays to beat the rush to the cottage. Speding the extra money and hassle is worth it to him once a week.

So you see that dense cities have little room for parking many cars, so people opt to either take the train in, or live IN the city where you don't need a car (like me! . I certainly could afford one, but this way i spend $90/month for a pass, everything i want is in walking distance or a quick streetcar or subway ride away. My commute to work is less than 15 minutes. Being 23, if I owned a car, I'd be spending $300/month on insurance alone (and i have never had an accident ot speeding ticket)! Then there is the price of the car itself, gas, parking, mainenance... This way I have more money to save up for a place and travel ;-).

That being said, it depends on the city and the services that are offered. Hell, even in Toronto I tend to avoid parts that are only served by busses. Calgary is a "car friendly" city, but has a good light rail service that is being expanded and is used by commuters. Certainly, smaller cities have a perception that you're only taking the bus because you can't afford a car, because the bus service is so terrible that you'd only be using it if you absolutely had to. Many medium sized cities have universities where students use the transit (like London, Kingston, etc), but otherwise is not used by other locals.

Most poor people in Canada can afford to get a car, albiet probably a used one. Some places you need it. Some you don't. It depends. Compare New York City to Los Angeles. Two very big cities. In one, you're considered an idiot for trying to drive downtown during rush hour. The other, you're considered poor if you try to get around via any means but a car.

I hope I clearly explained our way of thinking to you.


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## Smartboy (Oct 5, 2004)

*Thank you hylaride !*

Thank you hylaride for the explanation!!!

My city has 10 million habitants and the public transit it's not efficient and everybody want have a car. But cars cause traffic jams.

Well, what time streetcars works? Does It work at early morning too?


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## hylaride (Feb 9, 2005)

*Night Time!*



Smartboy said:


> Thank you hylaride for the explanation!!!
> 
> My city has 10 million habitants and the public transit it's not efficient and everybody want have a car. But cars cause traffic jams.
> 
> Well, what time streetcars works? Does It work at early morning too?


Depends on the route. Some of them are 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The subways shut down for 3.5 hours every day (from 2AM-5:30AM) and buses take the slack operating on a special night schedule. Most of the city is covered by it (the name of it is called Blue Night).

Two streetcars lines that go downtown (Queen and College if memory serves correctly) run all the time at a reduced schedule. During the day they run at 5 minute intervals, where as the evening it goes down to 30 minutes.

The fact that the subway shuts down at 2am (especially on summer friday and saturday nights) really bugged me until I realized that a lot of other cities did the same thing earlier AND didn't have night busses, so i'm considering myself lucky . I really hate busses, but I'll take them 2 or 3 times a week if I have to.

If you want to learn more about Toronto's Transit, there is an excellent site at Transit Toronto. They have answers from everything from why Toronto still has streetcars, to why it wasn't until the 1950s that we finnally got a subway (they were planning one in the early 1910s, but then WW1, by the time the economy fully returned to peacetime and they started talking about it again the depression and then WW2 hit).


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## mic of Orion (Feb 24, 2005)

if Toronto needs new trams, well I found some very nice trams just being built for Zagreb (Croatia) city transport, they are all articulated can be designed to specification of each city and Zagreb is getting at first 70 and than 100 more the replace its stock of old trams. 

TMK 2200

















TMK 2200 Trams are 32m long, 2.5 m wide, max speed is 70km, and max cappacity is 200 - 48 seats. Not bad at sniped price of US$1.75 mill per tram. 

All trams will have interior and exterior cctv - for saftey reason installed. 

tram link on the manufactures website - http://www.koncar-ellok.hr/prikaz.asp?txt_id=1224



Curent city trams are also quite nice enterd service 2000-2004 - less than 30 are in service but they are nicely done. 

TMK 2100 

TMK 2100 stats, Lenght 27.4m Width: 2.2m Max speed 58km, capacity: 44 seating and 120 standing. No in service: 20+









don't think they manufacture this trams anymore.


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## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

Ok well they would have to be Bombardier if Toronto bought new ones, because Bombardier is Canadian so if they are involved the Federal government is more likely to chip in with some money.


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

And with all the gov't grants they get ...


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## mic of Orion (Feb 24, 2005)

Oh yhea, I forgot of them, Krakow in Poland just got 50 of them, very nice 3 section trams - let me find some pics - don't have any specs but you could actually request trams to your own specs - needs. :cheers:  

New Bombadier Tram


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## hylaride (Feb 9, 2005)

DrJoe said:


> Ok well they would have to be Bombardier if Toronto bought new ones, because Bombardier is Canadian so if they are involved the Federal government is more likely to chip in with some money.


Not entirely. This is a provincial issue. The Federal government doesn't technically have the autority to do this, and the idea of giving gas tax money to cities is heading for a constitutional challenge. Keep in mind, that even though most of your taxes go to the federal government in Canada, most of it is transferred directly to the provinces to spend as they see fit. 

Toronto does tent to buy Subway cars from Bombardier, but it gets busses from all several different companies. As the TTC has it's current fleet from a former ontario crown corporation (since sold to bombardier), it's most likely that they'll get the streetcars from wherever is cheapest.

Also, Bombardier has a large airline industry in Toronto. Bombardier is not afraid to use arm twisting tactics against governments. One day that company will get what's comming to it...


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## DrJoe (Sep 12, 2002)

The TTC already said that if they are to get new streetcars the money will have to come directly from both the Provincial and Federal governments. If the Feds see Bombardier involved then they are more likely to hand over some money. Vancouver already has a similar deal worked out with them for funding there Skytrain.


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## rise_against (Apr 26, 2005)

i hope the new trams look sleaker!!! what is the Skytrain?


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

SkyTrain is a rapid transit system that unlike LRT is not at-grade and unlike subway is not undergroungd {although section downtown is. 
It is elevated with no street contact. 
The largest system of SkyTrain is in Vancouver. It is fast, effiecent, safe, and EXTREMLY frequent....evry 3 minutes during the day, every 90seconds in rush hour.
They are totally automated, no driver. 
In Vancouver the SkyTrain system is 50km. As a visual just think of a monorail except it has 2 rails like a train. 
www.translink.bc.ca is Vancouver Transit website. Lots of pics.


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## Skybean (Jun 16, 2004)




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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

ssiguy2 said:


> SkyTrain is a rapid transit system that unlike LRT is not at-grade .


geez, how many times do you have to be 'reminded' that ALRT is LRT. Hence 'aLRT'. The route kms are way out of date though.

http://www.lrta.org/world/worlda-e.html#Canada

scroll to Canada and view Vancouver


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

He was asking what a SkyTrain was. If I said just LRT he would think CTrain, or hundreds of other tram systems. I was trying to explain it so he could visualise the difference, eg looks like monorail.
Tell me ROCH if you were trying to explain to someone what SkyTrain looks like would you say it looks like a monorail system of Ctrain system???


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

I wouldn't say either. It is a 3rd rail light rail. Better than traditional LRT, almost HRT.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

I KNOW!!!!! I was just trying to help him visualize it so he doesn't think its a RedRocket or Ctrain which is what people think of when you say LRT.


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

ssiguy2 said:


> I was trying to explain



"SkyTrain is a rapid transit system that unlike LRT "

My ass


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## Homer J. Simpson (Dec 2, 2003)

Oh god, yet another ruined thread.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Fine..you win, it looks like a red-rocket and operates the same way.


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

The streetcars are really distinctive. I wonder if any city has the same model of streetcar, but just painted with a different livery?


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

Actually, there is a small US city I believe in either Wisconson or Illinois that use old TTC rolling stock in their streetcar route.

http://www.trolleycar.org/observations/weyrich/wey000318.htm


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

The Red Rockets have a slightly wider track base than standard Streetcar/tram lines do they not?


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

they operate non standard 10 Gauge


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## Principes (Jan 24, 2005)

can u post some of toroto's suburban railway train sets?


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/

Just go here


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## Principes (Jan 24, 2005)

cheers


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

rise_against said:


> i hope the new trams look sleaker!!! what is the Skytrain?


You know the SRT line in Scarborough? That's what Skytrain is (except SkyTrain is the entire "subway network" in Vancouver), plus it uses GO Transit-style honour fare system (no turnstyles etc).


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

^the Skytrain is the updated version, better capacity, better efficiency. Though I'd rather the SRT replaced with SRT instead of its upgraded version, though an upgrade would just take 2 years if the line was fully closed, instead of probably 3-5 years for the HRT to be constructed, which the SRT could run parrallel while the HRT is being constructed.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

If you need to know what they look like then think of a monorail system and stations. They use different technology and different trains but it gives you an idea. 
SkyTrain is not for heavy passenger rates like a subway but are good for medium capacity. They are fast, effient, and have proven themselves to be very safe. 
That said, they are a lot of money and if you can get the kind of ridership on a Rapid transit LRT then its way better bang for the buck. 
Calgary's CTrain is an example of that.


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

That's cool, Kenosha using TTC's old streetcars. And it connects to Chicago via Metra commuter rail. Pretty good for a small border town.


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## MSPtoMKE (Sep 12, 2002)

Hey, i took this picture!


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## Q-TIP (Feb 14, 2005)

Anyone, network map?


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/toronto/ttcroutes.html


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## lindenthaler (Apr 11, 2003)

Such great city deserves better tram cars als those one shown


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Most Torontonians LOVE their RedRockets because they are unique. No other major city in the world uses them so when you see them you know you are in Toronto. Its as much of a Toronto landmark as is the CNTower.


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## salvius (Aug 4, 2004)

Stevan said:


> Such great city deserves better tram cars als those one shown


There is actually a fairly sizeable opposition to changing these trams, as ssiguy points out. They are embedded into the urban fabric of the city and many feel modern trams would take some of that character away. I do think they are actually more interesting than modern trams. The new ones are a bit too 'square' (literally and slang-wise) but they posses a number of technical advantages.


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## Homer J. Simpson (Dec 2, 2003)

^Nice of you to drop in.

Newer trams would be more effecient and easier to maintain.

I will be sorry when the old ones go.


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## SpatulaCity (Mar 17, 2004)

I don't think I'd mind an upgrade too much as long as the TTC keeps the tradition of using red streetcars:










The one thing that I would sorely miss is if the upgraded cars don't have that bell that the drivers ding everytime they pass each other going the opposite direction. I love hearing that sound.

Not only would it be really weird to see something like this roll down Queen...








... but I'm pretty sure we're pretty limited to what we can use here. I haven't read the whole thread but does anyone know what possible replacements the TTC has been looking at... or what options the city has?


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

I saw some nice glassy trams going to Marsille in time for the world cup. Wouldn't mind something sophisticated looking instead of the typical nasty ^ looking new versions.


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## SpatulaCity (Mar 17, 2004)

Roch5220 said:


> http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/toronto/ttcroutes.html



Is that a complete map? I see streetcars on Parliament all the time. I see them on Church sometimes as well.


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## Homer J. Simpson (Dec 2, 2003)

^I was wondering the same thing? :?

BTW, how long is the streetcar system in KM?


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

http://world.nycsubway.org/canada/toronto/toronto-sc-map.html

Its conceivable, though possible explaination are route detours. The above is the actual street grid network.


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## SpatulaCity (Mar 17, 2004)

yeah maybe when the College route was being worked on... but I could swear there is a Parliament route that runs along Dundas and turns south on Parliament (pretty sure it's called "Parliament"). The driver has to get out and adjust the tracks... I could be mixing something up though.





hey salvius, "Location: Berlin"... nice! How do you like it so far?


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

SpatulaCity said:


> The driver has to get out and adjust the tracks... I could be mixing something up though.
> 
> ?


I could be wrong, but I doubt that having to manually adjust the tracks is a permanment occurance. It sounds like a route adjustment.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

It would be great to see Toronto being able to get new cars but similar to today's red-rockets. The new trams/streetcars can look very sleek and clean but are also a dime a dozen. The RedRockets are unique to Toronto. 
I could see them first transferring over to a newer form of streetcar at first being the Spadina/Harbourfront ROW line.


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

Roch5220 said:


> I could be wrong, but I doubt that having to manually adjust the tracks is a permanment occurance. It sounds like a route adjustment.


I see this happening from time to time, it usually happens when the cars turn around downtown, like McCaul on Queen, York on King via Wellington and Church. You'll notice on some of these streets like Church that the stops specifically state that they provide rush hour sevice only, because off peak runs don't turn back in the core, but pass through it.
Parliament is also a portion used for detouring routes during times of construction.


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## hylaride (Feb 9, 2005)

samsonyuen said:


> The streetcars are really distinctive. I wonder if any city has the same model of streetcar, but just painted with a different livery?


No, these streetcars are unique to Toronto. Nobody else has them.


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## hylaride (Feb 9, 2005)

SpatulaCity said:


> yeah maybe when the College route was being worked on... but I could swear there is a Parliament route that runs along Dundas and turns south on Parliament (pretty sure it's called "Parliament"). The driver has to get out and adjust the tracks... I could be mixing something up though.
> 
> The college/carelton streetcars end at parliament. The streetcars turn on parliament and then turn again onto dundas or vice versa.


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## addisonwesley (Jun 19, 2005)

*TTC: Building a Transit City*

I believe residents in the GTA will find this very interesting. A little outdated (2003), but none the less interesting. Lots of maps.

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/building_a_transit_city.pdf


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## Isan (Jul 9, 2004)

*TTC- Street Car*

Extraordinary and beauty transport system connectivity


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## Isan (Jul 9, 2004)




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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

" The Toronto tracks are virtually the cheapest quality a transit operating authority can operate. Their foundations are shallow, and there appears to be a hollow area between the underside of the top concrete and the top of the underlying trackbed making the vehicles unnecessarily noisy for too large a radius; the tracks need rebuilding far too often. "


Where did you hear that nonsense? 

The TTC is in the midst of a $300 million track replacement project...all state-of-the-art, pioneered by the TTC and now the standard used around the world.



"Very few -- if none -- switches are equipped with motors (the opertor must fish her/his crowbar, exit the vehicle, and flip the switch with all her/his might leaning into the bar (i.e., on icy days). "


More nonsense...of course they have motors. Occaisionally, when a streetcar is short-turning on a non-route track, they are required to open the switch manually (it closes automatically). 

Along with the track replacement, new switches are obviously installed. But, when it comes time to replace the streetcars with new ones (whichever they are), may require double-blade switches...a pretty expensive proposition.







"I wonder how antiquated the circuitry to its network is"

I guess you would have to wonder...cause you obviously wouldn't "know".








"With its predominantly narrow streets there, the city really ought to equip its network and cars with manually-operated or automatic tools to control the traffic lights in favour of passing streetcars. "


Signalized intersections on streetcar routes ARE equipped with signal priority detection equipment.









"As a network, it has all the hallmarks of a system a westerner would come to expect to find characterisetic to a region struggling to develop."


As we have just seen, it doesn't look like you are in a position to make such assessments. As a network, it has all the hallmarks of the best and largest streetcar system in north america. It seems Toronto is doing the least struggling in this catagory. Perhaps we should have followed Montreal's lead, and abandoned our streetcars back in 1959 ?







KGB


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - Toronto Star

The right side of the track
When it comes to streetcar work, TTC is on top
Cutting-edge pilot project saves time and money

KEVIN MCGRAN
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

There was a time the TTC was on the cutting edge of transit in North America.

For the most part, that time has past. But there’s one area — the decidedly unsexy world of streetcar rail/road construction — where the TTC has regained its status as a world leader.

A pilot project last year at the intersection of King and Dufferin Sts. is being expanded this year at two intersections along St. Clair Ave. The work will:

*Lengthen the life expectancy of the road, rail and infrastructure underneath to 25 years, from about 15.

*Cut in half the time it takes to reconstruct intersections.

*Cut the cost of road repairs.

*Reduce the noise and vibration of streetcars.

“We’re the defining edge in my mind,” says Jim Teeple, the TTC superintendent who oversees streetcar track reconstruction. “We don’t deserve bragging rights, until we actually get it in use.

“(But) what we’re doing with special work from the technology perspective and installation methods is cutting edge. I’m very proud of it. A lot of gray matter went into what we’re trying to do.”

In the bad old days, the TTC would lay streetcar tracks on wooden ties and pour concrete around them.

The problems were many.

The wood ties would rot. The rail connections would be bolted together but inevitably loosen over time. The loose rail would take a pounding, shaking the concrete, creating potholes.

Meanwhile, the rail, which also acts as a current for electricity flowing back to a substation, was suffering from electrolysis.

Essentially, it was rusting quickly because the electricity would take the metal with it as it sought the path of least resistance down into the ground, degrading watermains. Road repairs, watermain repairs and rail repairs were constant.

About nine years ago, the TTC pioneered a way to lengthen the life of the road and rail by using steel ties instead of wooden ties and putting a “rubber boot” around the rail in a process they called RETrack (Resiliency Embedded Track).

The material — a thermaplastic that can be mass produced — kept the electrical current contained in the rail, reducing the effects of electrolysis, and acted as a buffer between rail and concrete, reducing road repairs.

The TTC’s RETrack is now a North American standard.

But there was another problem: what to do at intersections. Each area where streetcars turn from one road to another is unique. The rubber boot couldn’t be manufactured to meet the intricacies of the intersection — the curves, the joinings, etc.

“The geometry changes by the foot,” says Teeple. “It’s not something we can order off the shelf and put it in place. It’s unique. Everything in the intersection is unique.”

Advances in polyurethane technology have finally allowed the TTC to apply the principals of RETrack to intersections. Last summer, the TTC tried it out at King and Dufferin; this summer St. Clair and Oakwood and St. Clair and Rubina are getting it. If it works, it’ll be expanded to all 80 intersections as they come up for refitting.

“The true challenge was to find a material that could be formed and poured and then, when properly cured, would give it the properties we were looking for: electrical isolation, mechanical dampening of vibration and absorption of energy from streetcars above,” says Teeple.

And because the “rubber boot” absorbs the stress of the weight of the streetcar and buffers noise, the streetcars are “quiet as a mouse,” says Teeple.

American transit authorities, increasingly moving toward streetcar- type service, are already copying the TTC’s RETrack procedure for long, straight rail.

Retired engineer Bill Moorhead, whose company supplied the TTC with engineering expertise, says European and Asian cities, as well as places like Houston, San Diego and Philadelphia, are keen to learn if and how the TTC perfects its work on intersections.

“That’s something new; nobody so far is replicating that because the jury is out until we see how well TTC succeeds with it,” says Moorhead, a member of the American Public Transit Association, an influential lobby group in the United States. “This could be considered experimental.

“I’m sure some version of that will be developed and used almost universally.”

Meanwhile, this month at College and Ossington, the TTC will use a pair of European machines called PEMS in an attempt to reconstruct that intersection in two or three days, down from the five to seven it normally takes.

Usually, the TTC assembles an intersection at its Hillcrest yard, then disassembles it into 6- or 9-metre “panels,” transports it to the intersection and puts it back together again.

The PEMS, which speed up the delicate work of positioning track, will allow the TTC to transport much longer panels, requiring less work at the site.

“If you’re the owner of a store on any one of the corners, you can appreciate what this does to you,” says Teeple.

“So the faster we can get in and get out, it benefits everybody. These panel movers are going to allow us to do that now by taking extremely large pieces of trackwork down in one fell swoop.”

That’s all good news for the city’s bottom line. The TTC is in the middle of a 15-year program to rebuild its 280,986 double track feet (84,296 metres) for streetcars. The cost of the repairs has actually come down in the past four years.

In 2000, it cost the city $942.23 per foot of double track. These advances have helped bring the cost down to $688.41.

It’s not a subway to York University or some other glorified project for politicians to cut ribbons at.

But the TTC does quietly look for better ways to handle projects. “Extending life cycle drops costs,” says Teeple. “If we can put some other innovation into them to reduce construction time, we’ll save money.”


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

greg_christine said:


> Quite possibly you are thinking of the Market Street Railway in San Francisco:
> 
> Home Page:
> http://www.streetcar.org/index.html
> ...


Yes, I've seen that in San Francisco... it was very cool.
I like the look of our streetcars. I have no desire for them to be streamlined
bullets.. they are urban transit, and operate at relatively slow speeds, and
are not being designed to blast off into outer space. I would like new ones
designed like the look of the existing pmes so that ours don't look like all the generic one's everyone else is anxious to adopt. Who cares if ours look
different than Tokyo's or in Germany. I am happy to have streetcars that
look like ours!


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

KGB said:


> "With its predominantly narrow streets there, the city really ought to equip its network and cars with manually-operated or automatic tools to control the traffic lights in favour of passing streetcars. "
> 
> Signalized intersections on streetcar routes ARE equipped with signal priority detection equipment.


Yeha, but the TTC is not currently using the signal priority detection equipment. They just got approval/made the decision to start using it at the end of April 2006.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/index.shtml gives a little bit more info...scroll down to April 21, 2006

When was the Spadina ROW built?

Cheers, m


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

allurban said:


> When was the Spadina ROW built?


That's the example of how its ROW streetcar route is a ROW physically but not operationally, i.e., prime example of my observations of traffic-light sequencings there.

Reading that article somewhere above, I hope the city'll overcome its ifiness although it's pointless crossing my fingers. It's a network bearing early-to-mid-20th-Century characteristics (I've commuted on many of its routes, and its operators would also tell you the network's low score on automatic switches -- its operators are most likely fully aware of other cities' remarkable accomplishments built into their networks).




KGB said:


> Where did you hear that nonsense?


Like my written observation in my message somewhere above might be implying, as far as several blocks away from the passing bogies.

Cheers,
Chris


----------



## sl64 (May 1, 2006)

If you're implying that you can hear TTC streetcars for blocks around, you must have quite the superhuman sense of hearing. Downtown you can certainly hear them everywhere... because they *are* everywhere. Where it's just one route, there is no way you can hear them from farther than the next street over, if that.

"It's a network bearing early-to-mid-20th-Century characteristics"

Shocking that it would bear characteristics of the time when it was built. And characteristics aside, they've done a remarkable job adjusting the network over the years, which is much harder than building a modern network from scratch. Combined with their rate of use and functionality, I don't see how any other NA city has done a better job with what it has.

And finally, with new subway lines largely a financial impossibility, the TTC is gung-ho about ROW these days. Within 10-15 years I think you'll see a lot of them popping up. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if the St. Clair line were extended east, and an Eglinton east-west line and maybe even a Don Mills north-south line were built, all with ROW, relatively soon.

Ultimately I think the TTC will look to expand streetcar usage outside of downtown, especially once the new car issue is cleared up and they know what they'll have going forward. I hope to see ROW streetcars operating on every major street in the city that can't quite support a subway someday.


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## mr_storms (Oct 29, 2005)

they reallly need some new low floor ones


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## Bertez (Jul 9, 2005)

Supposedly the new s'cars that they bought are low-floor models


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"Yeha, but the TTC is not currently using the signal priority detection equipment. They just got approval/made the decision to start using it at the end of April 2006."



What are you talking about????? The signal priority equipment has been in use for years. And not just on the streetcars, but buses as well.

That article is talking about just the Spadina line...and there are very good reasons it's not being used....the major one being it's basically pointelss, given the factors affecting that route. Using signal priority would cause more problems than it would solve.

Why do you think the engineers have chosen to not utilize them up to this point??? They are just stupid, or have a grudge against Spadina????


If you don't know what you are talking about...why not ask questions, rather than look stupid making incorrect statements.








"its operators would also tell you the network's low score on automatic switches -- its operators are most likely fully aware of other cities' remarkable accomplishments built into their networks) "



Where do you think I get most of my info regarding this....I have an immediate family member as a streetcar operator for the last 23 years. I hear stuff you will never read in a newspaper article....or even commision reports.


But you are right about the switches being the bain of streetcar operators (not just TTC...but anywhere). The basic rule is....never trust a switch. Switches wear out and malfunction....and you never know when, so you are always wary. That's why there are basic procedure every operator must use with them. Because taking an open switch is something you definetely don't want to happen.

But you are wrong about every other point you made....the switches aren't heated, because there is no point....the other mandatory switch maintenence renders it pointless to install heaters. And ALL switches are motorized on a route. There are the odd ones that are manual, but they are never located on an actual route, and would represent like 1% of switches. If you ever see an operator opening a switch manually, it's because the switch has malfunctioned and must be used manually until it can be repaired.








"overhead traction power signs are so rusted and tiny that an operator often missed the warning, and her/his mismanagment of the current would cause the vehicle to lurch or even shower sparks onto streetgoers."


There's no such thing as an operator "missing" an insulator or an NA switch. They don't use the signs....they are there just as a technicality for liability purposes...not as signs used by operators. An operator knows exactly what is on the rails, on the overhead wires, and on the road (or at least is supposed to). If there are ever sparks, then you either braked or accelerated through an insulator....and you are not supposed to do that...pretty basic stuff...you aren't trained to go by the signs. Try telling an inspector that you took an open switch or blew an insulator because you couldn't read the sign....quite laughable. 








"the most pressing improvement necessary is to equip all the streetcars there with flashing signs more akin to those found upon schoolbusses"


Well, if you aren't aware of the Highway Traffic Act, then you shouldn't be on the road.

The offenders know what they are doing is wrong...the solution is not barriers or flashing lights, but change of attitude. What it needs is a serious penalty...not the pidly fine...if you are even caught. If the penalty is severe enough, then people will stop doing it. They gave operators special forms to fill in plate #s of those who violated the law....they filled them out...sent them in...on a regular basis. The police then issued a warning to those people. The TTC asked for a formal study to determine if it had made any difference...it made none.

If you lost your license for 3 or 6 months if found guilty, then you wouldn't be taking such risks just to get in front of that streetcar....or you'd be riding it for the next 3 or 6 months.






KGB


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

KGB said:


> If you don't know what you are talking about...why not ask questions, rather than look stupid making incorrect statements.
> KGB


You have chosen to reveal your own self with your statement. This is sad. 

I am well aware of the TTC and the issues that it has with signal priority equipment. I am aware that it is installed in some buses and streetcars...and I am aware that in most cases it is not being used...

Please provide evidence and examples of where it is being used...before you start criticizing me personally.

Cheers, m


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

> At present, the TTC employs signal priority at 260 intersections on eight routes, with benefits of faster service and an annual savings of $1.5 million in operating costs, and ten streetcars and four buses in vehicle savings. The TTC would like to expand signal priority to 27 additional routes.
> 
> 
> > The above was taken from the text of the Final Report of the Smart Growth Panel, April 2003.
> ...


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

Maybe you should have googled before you spoke?? he he

Don't be a sore sport...you were simply wrong. Next time, just admit it, rather than tap-dance around.






KGB


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

KGB said:


> Maybe you should have googled before you spoke?? he he


8 routes out of how many? Not being used on Spadina...because the engineers dont want it...Is it currently being used on streetcar routes? (note title of thread)

I wouldnt call it system wide implementation 



KGB said:


> Don't be a sore sport...you were simply wrong. Next time, just admit it, rather than tap-dance around.
> KGB


That's fine...I can accept that I was partly wrong..not simply wrong. You were simply rude...can you admit that?

Hmmmm...actually, lets just leave it. 

I'd like to hear more about the stories from your streetcar operator family member. 

Cheers, m


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"I wouldnt call it system wide implementation"


Of course it isn't system-wide (yet). It's something that takes time to instal...and at $25,000 per intersection, it's not cheap. It's being done by priority...about one route per year (40 to 60 intersections). 

But that's not what you said...you said the TTC does not use signal priority period....or just started using it last week. This is completely false...not partly false.








"Is it currently being used on streetcar routes? (note title of thread) "


You should read your own googled post more carefully.








"You were simply rude...can you admit that? "


You made an incorrect statement...I pointed it out...that isn't being rude. Suggesting that you should do some research rather than making incorrect statements is not being rude either....it's good advice. 







KGB


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

So, it is being used, on some Toronto streetcar and bus routes...at least 8, perhaps more. I had read the April 19 MTO press release, stating the plans to expand signal priority permission to all transit vehicles, which says:

With the traffic signal pre-emption technology, buses, streetcars and
other transit maintenance vehicles can shorten a red, or lengthen a green
traffic signal to their advantage when approaching an intersection. This
technology is currently used by emergency vehicles.

another article I found uses two conflicting views:

With the traffic signal pre-emption technology, buses, streetcars and
other transit maintenance vehicles can shorten a red, or lengthen a green
traffic signal to their advantage when approaching an intersection. This
technology is currently used by emergency vehicles. 

and

This initiative responds to requests from municipal transit authorities. The Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) and York Region have already implemented forms of this transit priority system on some of their routes. Several municipal transit authorities, including Guelph Transit, are investigating the use of this technology.

Well, thanks for the correction. 

So, Id like to know, why isnt it being used on Spadina? Why is it "basically pointless" to use it? 

Cheers, m


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## GO_Rider (Apr 26, 2006)

From my experiences, I have seen the 506 streetcar with signal priority in action. The pedestrian light would be flashing the red hand, and then finally it turned solid, but the traffic light was still green on College St, where a streetcar was in the process of crossing the intersection. The traffic light immediately changed once it completed crossing. It's pretty cool, I think.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Are Allurban and Elkram the same person???!!!!


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

No


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"So, Id like to know, why isnt it being used on Spadina? Why is it "basically pointless" to use it? "


"I am well aware of the TTC and the issues that it has with signal priority equipment. "


It does not appear that you are "well aware" at all. 


What's all the negativity over Toronto's streetcars anyway? It's well used and well loved. To listen to you guys, it's some antiquated, malfunctioning piece of crap that should be scrapped.





KGB


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

KGB, if you dont have an answer to the question, or do not wish to answer the question, please say so.

I can find my answers from other sources...but I would like to hear from this forum as well.

Again, does anyone know why TTC is not currently using the signal priority detection equipment for the spadina line.

Cheers, m


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

GO_Rider said:


> From my experiences, I have seen the 506 streetcar with signal priority in action. The pedestrian light would be flashing the red hand, and then finally it turned solid, but the traffic light was still green on College St, where a streetcar was in the process of crossing the intersection. The traffic light immediately changed once it completed crossing. It's pretty cool, I think.


Thanks for the info. 

Cheers, m


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

allurban said:


> No


Fooled me. I'd say the style of your entries
is identical, as is the general negative spirit of your postings 
regarding Toronto. Must all be a "huge coincidence". :sleepy:


----------



## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

Hi Allurban! I wish you a fun weekend!




GO_Rider said:


> From my experiences, I have seen the 506 streetcar with signal priority in action. The pedestrian light would be flashing the red hand, and then finally it turned solid, but the traffic light was still green on College St, where a streetcar was in the process of crossing the intersection. The traffic light immediately changed once it completed crossing. It's pretty cool, I think.


This was the route I travelled the most, all times of day. Do you know if travel times have been significantly trimmed either way along Carlton and College? I'm wondering if it's still more timely to get off the respective preceding stop before the one at the corner of Yonge rush hours -- we westbound passengers getting off at that intersection were seldom let out any earlier than the fourth red traffic light we'd be restlessly witnessing from our red rocket. Mind you, that city's traffic signals yield remarkably shorter go and stop times, the traffic lights keep changing there.




KGB said:


> "the most pressing improvement necessary is to equip all the streetcars there with flashing signs more akin to those found upon schoolbusses"
> 
> Well, if you aren't aware of the Highway Traffic Act, then you shouldn't be on the road.


A couple of days after writing my observation, I came across marvelous pictures of Melbourne's fleets of trams. Errr, some planner there must have seen the light coz Melbourne's trams are adorned with retractable illuminating signs, being designed much like what I'd always craved riding Toronto's.

KGB, your ego's muddling (e.g., careful, lest you be demonstrative of another reason why visiting there might not be worthwhile) -- pretty childish to stomp on a solid recommendation for a safety improvement, no? Maybe try reading between my lines: I didn't feel safe riding your trams -- you'd think it'd be irksome to a network for its obliging a passenger or even a nearby pedestrian for crying out loud! into having to remember to look away from the exit every time a passenger got off one of its trams, no? So much for the romantic ideal, which seemed to be the only promoted reason coming out of there for not doing away with the city's trams.

By the way, I found the Toronto Transit Commission's bus and tram operators to be *remarkably* smart people, I thoroughly enjoyed shooting the breeze with them -- I also admired their boldness -- sensible drivers too.

Oh! the gong's the other cute aspect I remember about the trams there. It's a shame -- read: not pity -- that the operators were left to honk their horns at an ever increasing number of underpassers, when I reckon management ought to be overcoming this most *pressing* problem of theirs.

Cheers,
Chris


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"KGB, your ego's muddling (e.g., careful, lest you be demonstrative of another reason why visiting there might not be worthwhile) "


Oh...and what is that...Torontonians are such assholes?

I wondered when the true nature of your negativity would shine through...just typical Montrealers and their anti-Toronto sentiments. Yea...my ego. I guess pointing out straight glaring BS posts regarding technical comments about streetcars makes ME the bad guy. mmmm hmmm 







"pretty childish to stomp on a solid recommendation for a safety improvement, no? "


What's childish about it? And why all the drama about stomping?

It's a simple matter of following the rules of the road. You stop at a red light don't you....they don't put barriers down when there is a red light. 







" I didn't feel safe riding your trams -- you'd think it'd be irksome to a network for its obliging a passenger or even a nearby pedestrian for crying out loud! "


Since streetcars are unique to Toronto, perhaps you just don't understand the nature of it, and are making a big deal out of something that is just normal....just not to you. When you walk onto a road, you look to make sure it's safe to do so don't you? Of course you do that when exiting a streetcar...it's just common sense....you are walking into traffic. 







"So much for the romantic ideal, which seemed to be the only promoted reason coming out of there for not doing away with the city's trams."


Oh yea...it's just all down the tubes eh? Com'on...now your just reaching in your desperate attempt at knocking something just because it's in Toronto, when we all know streetcars are fabulous.

And while the streetcars are indeed well loved and iconic of the city (which must just bug the shit out of montrealers), they are definetely not here for the fun of it....they serve a very specific route service not provided by buses or subways. 








" at an ever increasing number of underpassers, when I reckon management ought to be overcoming this most pressing problem of theirs."



Man...you just can't stop bringing this up...even in the same post.

Look, flashing lights aren't going to stop people from doing it....the offenders already know they have to stop...they just want to get by that streetcar too badly, and take stupid risks to do it. The answer is to make the penalties serious. 

The operators will generally not even open the doors until they see traffic has stopped first. It isn't "managements" fault. 



This thread has become the usual bash-Toronto-at-any-cost ...I mean now the streetcars suck...hell, they are nothing but a deadly menace to society. Not only that, you can't post blatent bullshit like there's no signal priority...no motorized switched, etc....because someone will point out that is incorrect....what fun is that? 


Whatever.







KGB


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

^ :wallbash: ^ Relax, e.g., take a deap breath.

My main point touches upon out-of-towners, whose highway codes most likely have no provision concerning trains cruising streets -- most underpassers, i.e., infractors, bear out-of-province license plates. Equipping the trams there with indicators like Melbourne's would be a step in the right direction.

Cheers,
Chris


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

KGB you hit the nail on the head. "Elkram/Allurban", (or just plain Mark), whatever
you want to call yourself, you are the one who should take a deep breath and
relax. In your short career here on skyscrapercity you have displayed nothing but
contempt for Toronto. Be prepared for a rocky ride if you intend to keep it up.
Next time you make a fake profile to agree with yourself, at least disguise it better.


----------



## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

^^ career?!? Kiddo, dry up !


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"most underpassers, i.e., infractors, bear out-of-province license plates."


Wanna bet?

But hey....every "fact" passed off here has been total rubbish anyway...so go ahead, keep making up facts...why should it stop now?

Getting off a streetcar is no more risky than crossing the street in the city....keep on making up reasons to knock streetcars all you like, but to cling to this one tells me your real intention here is to knock them for the sake of it. Trolls are annoying.




KGB


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

Taller said:


> Fooled me. I'd say the style of your entries
> is identical, as is the general negative spirit of your postings
> regarding Toronto. Must all be a "huge coincidence". :sleepy:


I'm impressed with your deduction skills, Sherlock. :weirdo: 
Based on, oh, less than 10 posts by me, you think that I am someone else. 

Um...why are you here? Your talent is being wasted...go work for the FBI or CIA or CSIS...find Osama, find the WMDs in Iraq...do psychic profiles of criminals...solve the unsolved mysteries of _Unsolved Mysteries_......

Dont you realize the failure of your logic?

There is a remarkable similarity between you and a chimpanzee. You share 97% of your DNA. You both can use tools. You have an identical number of fingers and toes. Therefore, by your logic, you would be identical to a chimpanzee. 

But I am confident that you are not a chimpanzee.



Taller said:


> KGB you hit the nail on the head. "Elkram/Allurban", (or just plain Mark), whatever
> you want to call yourself, you are the one who should take a deep breath and
> relax. In your short career here on skyscrapercity you have displayed nothing but
> contempt for Toronto. Be prepared for a rocky ride if you intend to keep it up.
> Next time you make a fake profile to agree with yourself, at least disguise it better.


Next time you make assumptions, better find the proof. If you bothered to check the internet protocol, you would see that I am using a completely different computer from this elkram person, and that computer is located in a completely different part of the world....oh, and there are dozens of names that begin with the letter m....

but why check...just assume that you are right because you believe it to be so. Do you believe the WMDs in Iraq are gonna turn up any day now?

Sure, I made a mistake, I read the CNW news release from the Ontario Government, which said that only emergency vehicles use the signal priority technology...I failed to check those facts...I had proof to back up what I said about signal priority. But the proof was wrong, and therefore, I was wrong. I already stood corrected a few posts ago.

What is your reason for not answering the question about why using signal detection equipment on Spadina is pointless? If you dont know, maybe you can try to find out....

Cheers, m


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

Spadina is not a good candidate for signal priority, because it's headways are too small. It's a small, but very busy route, so streetcars are too close together. If signal priority were operating, Spadina would basically have a solid green light all the time. 

Obviously this would not work well for all the major, busy streets it crosses...especially when it crosses 4 other streetcar routes, which also use signal priority. Plus the intersections are complicated by having so many separate left turn lights...it's not a simple 4-way. 

This is why Spadina needs to have larger vehicles, with higher capacity but longer headways. Spadina will probably be the first line to use either the coupled streetcars or whatever new "train" style LRT vehicles it purchases down the road.






KGB


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

@"allurban/elkram": Uh-huh... whatever you say. I believe you
because I am a very trusting soul.......... :hahaha: .


----------



## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

Hmmm, if KGB's and TB's surly attitudes serve as any indication, maybe Toronto deserves the very quality of tram network it's got.

Let me share further observations from my daily commutes on the trams there:

-- loose rails that I've seen pop way out of joints from trams heading the other way on the other side of the road, no matter how much they reduced their speed

-- operators telling me that the tracks weren't in the least bit designed for the hefty weights of the city's two current fleets of trams 

-- reduced speed zones, i.e., 5MPH / 10KPH, for blocks upon blocks for seasons at a time; it was a relief when the busses had to sometimes substitute the trams coz they drastically trimmed the travel times

-- the insulation disintegrating off the feeder power lines strung atop the catenary poles

-- delapidated track sections that often caused the tram chassis to excessively thud against some underframe, as well as the whole car to lurch to one side

-- as complete strangers from the outset, lots of white English-speaking adult male passengers getting themselves into amusing squabbles (very Torontonian)

One needn't be a rocket scientist or a text book to figure out how much attention ought to be devoted to the network there.

The most disturbing aspect about it was learning from news reports of passengers dying from being hit by vehicles while getting either on or off a tram there. I wish I could say the STOP stickers on the doors are a joke, but that wouldn't be fair of me.

Tram and interurban networks in Holland, Belgium, W Germany, Portugal and Spain were always thrilling, while Toronto's own network did little to excite me.

Cheers,
Chris


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

"loose rails that I've seen pop way out of joints from trams heading the other way on the other side of the road, no matter how much they reduced their speed

"operators telling me that the tracks weren't in the least bit designed for the hefty weights of the city's two current fleets of trams"

"delapidated track sections"


Yea yea yea...I suppose it's easier to make up your own stories, than it is to face the truth that the track is all brand new and state-of-the-art.

You forgot to mention the gum you saw on the floor once.








"Hmmm, if KGB's and TB's surly attitudes serve as any indication, maybe Toronto deserves the very quality of tram network it's got."

" lots of white English-speaking adult male passengers getting themselves into amusing squabbles (very Torontonian) "



I see your posts are getting less about streetcars, and more about what you really troll around Toronto threads for. But then again, there's nothing origional about a Montrealer's opinion about Toronto....we have heard it all before ya know. 







KGB


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

Cheesh, remind me and other forumers to get a Toronto-limited passport!


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

elkram said:


> Cheesh, remind me and other forumers to get a Toronto-limited passport!


@"elkram/allurban/Mark". of Montreal, London and Kuala Lumpur 
This one sentence pretty much sums up all your prejudices:
"-- as complete strangers from the outset, lots of white English-speaking adult male passengers getting themselves into amusing squabbles (very Torontonian)"

For someone who professes his dislike/contempt for Toronto on 
numerous occasions, why are you seemingly drawn to all the Toronto
threads?


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

KGB said:


> Spadina is not a good candidate for signal priority, because it's headways are too small. It's a small, but very busy route, so streetcars are too close together. If signal priority were operating, Spadina would basically have a solid green light all the time.
> 
> Obviously this would not work well for all the major, busy streets it crosses...especially when it crosses 4 other streetcar routes, which also use signal priority. Plus the intersections are complicated by having so many separate left turn lights...it's not a simple 4-way.


Thanks for the info...much appreciated...It's funny that, according to the subway riders efficiency guide, it is faster to use bathurst than Spadina even tho Spadina is in ROW...have you read the guide? 

When TO gets the new subway cars with the gangways, I think it will become even more useful...passengers can walk through cars and position themselves in the train so they will be right at the platform exit 



KGB said:


> This is why Spadina needs to have larger vehicles, with higher capacity but longer headways. Spadina will probably be the first line to use either the coupled streetcars or whatever new "train" style LRT vehicles it purchases down the road.
> 
> KGB


That would be nice...I would like to see better service on Spadina. Personally, I think the new LRTs  and coupled CLRVs (if this happens) will end up on King and St. Clair first. The reasons are: 


TTC has been wanting to make changes on King for years...remember the Transit Mall proposal. Also, they specifically mentioned King in the proposal for coupling cars

No ALRVs are used on Spadina although they can fit into the tight turnarounds at Spadina and Union...because of visibility concerns. Anyways, if thats the case, then I dont see TTC putting longer or coupled streetcars on Spadina (and Harbourfront)

The City will *owe* the St. Clair community after the row that popped up over the ROW. That may be why they are testing the time-expired transfer there

I do hope that Spadina will get other things installed before the other routes...platform ticketing to speed up boarding, all doors boarding, smart card testing, time-expired transfers, full POP implementation, etc.

Cheers, mya

(Seems someone thinks I'm someone else...so why not humour him. Let LT think Im R&B star Mya  Actually, those are just my full initials)


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

elkram said:


> -- operators telling me that the tracks weren't in the least bit designed for the hefty weights of the city's two current fleets of trams


I dont know about this...but the CLRVs (Canadian Light Rail Vehicles) that are currently used (and the ALRVs which are based on the CLRV) were going to be used on the streets and on a network of high speed interurban routes...(which never came about, except for the Scarborough RT)...so they are much heavier when compared to the older PCC cars.

Principal Specifications (CLRV):
Fleet numbers: L1 Class - 4000-4005 (Swiss built), L2 Class - 4010-4199 (Canadian built) 
Seating: 46 
Normal service usage: 102 passengers - 29,685 kg 
'Crush' load capacity: 132 passengers - 31,735 kg 
Empty streetcar weight: 22,685 kg (50,000 lbs)  
Minimum horizontal curve radius: 10,973 mm (36'0") 
Minimum vertical curve radius - convex: 122 m 
Minimum vernicle curve radius - concave: 244 m 
Motor rating: 2 x 185 HP continuous, 245 HP in acceleration, 370 HP in braking 
Initial acceleration rate: 1.47 m/s/s (3.3 MPHPS) 
Braking rate: 1.6 m/s/s (3.6 MPHPS) in service, 3.46 m/s/s (7.7 MPHPS) in emergency 

Principal Specifications(ALRV):
Fleet numbers: 4200-4251 
Seating: 61 
Normal service usage: 155 passengers - 47,655 kg 
‘Crush’ load capacity: 205 passengers - 51,165 kg 
Empty streetcar weight: 36,745 kg (81,000 lbs) 
Minimum horizontal curve radius: 10,973 mm (36’0”) 
Minimum verticle curve radius - convex: 122 m 
Minimum verticle curve radius - concave: 244 m 
Motor rating: 4 x 87 HP (65KW) continuous, 4 x 123 HP (92KW) one hour. 
Initial acceleration rate: 1.2 m/s/s (2.65 MPHPS) 
Braking rate: 1.6 m/s/s (3.6 MPHPS) in service, 3.13 m/s/s (7.0 MPHPS) in emergency 

Principal Specifications (PCC Cars Classes A-6/7/8 as rebuilt)
Seating: 46 
Normal service usage: 103 passengers - 53,000 lbs 
'Crush' load capacity: 134 passengers - 57,650 lbs 
Empty streetcar weight: 37,400 lbs  
Minimum horizontal curve radius: 10,973 mm (36'0") 
Minimum verticle curve radius - convex: 122 m 
Minimum verticle curve radius - concave: 244 m 
Motor rating: 4 x 48 HP continuous, 4 x 55 HP one hour. 100 HP in acceleration, 225 HP in braking 
Initial acceleration rate: 4.3 MPHPS 
Braking rate: 1.6 m/s/s (3.6 MPHPS) in service, (9.0 MPHPS) in emergency

NOTE: This information was taken from the Transit Toronto Website

ALRV - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4504.shtml
CLRV - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4503.shtml
PCC - http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4502.shtml

The Scarborough RT  was supposed to be the first of these interurban railways, using the CLRV technology. Another was going to be built at Kipling Station out in the west end. 

At the last minute, the Ontario Government demanded that the TTC use their new Linear Induction Motor system instead of CLRV/ALRV. 

Cheers, mya


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

allurban said:


> When TO gets the new subway cars with the gangways


Right on. Are there any drawings? Where might I look at one?

Buying and using lousy female body fragrances are now catching on here -- they're so nauseating that I find myself having to trespass into the adjacent car before reaching the first station to prevent myself from hurling.

Cheers,
Chris

PS: Who/where's Mark?!?


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

If you are doing all this for my benefit, then you needn't bother. I think you
know I have made my point : "Mind your p's and q's". :goodbye:


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## dchengg (Jan 13, 2006)

i saw on the news the other day about the transit company will be putting on those traffic light controllers, to make travelling by public transportation more efficient, and theyre going to first test it on the streetcars.


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

allurban said:


> If you bothered to check the internet protocol, you would see that I am using a completely different computer from this elkram person, and that computer is located in a completely different part of the world


allurban, how do you check the internet protocol here? Consulting the site's FAQ has yielded no help on how to do this.

Cheers,
Chris


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## sl64 (May 1, 2006)

allurban said:


> I dont know about this...but the CLRVs (Canadian Light Rail Vehicles) that are currently used (and the ALRVs which are based on the CLRV) were going to be used on the streets and on a network of high speed interurban routes...(which never came about, except for the Scarborough RT)...so they are much heavier when compared to the older PCC cars


Um, did you just quote yourself?


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

elkram said:


> allurban, how do you check the internet protocol here? Consulting the site's FAQ has yielded no help on how to do this.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris


The mods can do it if there is a problem with people making fake accounts
so that they can agree with themselves and sound like somebody out there
actually agrees with them. Newbies do it all the time.  Nasty habit, and
it fools no one, no matter how long they drag it out. 
Cheers, tb



sl64 said:


> Um, did you just quote yourself?


He probably got confused for a moment ...


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

No, I didnt quote myself. 

Elkram said that operators are telling him the streetcars are too heavy for the _tracks_...Maybe he meant the roads, maybe he didnt. I dont care.

I'm talking about the roads. The criticism of the streetcars being too heavy for the roads is a regular excuse that comes up again and again...I dont agree with that criticism, I find that it is sloppy thinking. 

Yes, the CLRVs weigh about 14000 lb more than the PCC cars, but that doesnt mean the streets cannot handle the extra weight. If the roads couldnt support the weight of CLRVs, why would TTC introduce ALRVs?

Also, future TTC cars would be articulated, so they will probably be heavier than CLRVs.

Is it possible that the CLRVs could be too heavy for the track that was installed in the day of the PCC car, which might lead to problems with premature wear? I dont know...Im not an engineer.

TTC engineers would obviously want to use track that can bear the weight of the cars. KGB pointed out that most of the streetcar rails have been replaced since the CLRVs were introduced...so I am sure that TTC would have found ways to fix the problem (if there was a problem).

Cheers, mya


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## Gil (Mar 11, 2005)

*Network Expansion*

It took me a while to find this one thread. I didn't want to create a duplicate with this one floating around somewhere.



> *Plan calls for light rail network*
> RON BULL/TORONTO STAR FILE
> Mar 15, 2007 01:35 PM
> John Spears
> ...


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## Canadian Chocho (May 18, 2006)

Yay! I love Streetcars!


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

So there is a plan but no funding to execute. Nothing different from all the other plans and illusions that have come out over the years.


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

hkskyline said:


> So there is a plan but no funding to execute. Nothing different from all the other plans and illusions that have come out over the years.


This has been my attitude towards it as well, but the plan is also terrible in that it is proposing spending the money on LRT lines that are in need of HRT capacity - LRT becomes a waste of money because the problem of capacity on select corridors would not actually be solved. Some of these corridors are fine as streetcars (like Waterfront), but an alarming majority of them are best slated from subway, particularly Eglinton and Sheppard East, the idea of making those LRT instead is absolutely proposterous.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Success driven by TTC: Miller
15-year plan shifts the focus from subways to electric light rail cars and more streetcars*
Toronto Star
March 17, 2007 
Tess Kalinowski
John Spears
STAFF REPORTERS

It will take 15 years and about $6 billion to build the light rail network that the Toronto Transit Commission envisions connecting virtually every neighbourhood in the city.

But Toronto has no choice other than to forge ahead with the project, says Mayor David Miller.

"If we're going to succeed economically and socially, we need a strategy like this," Miller said yesterday after TTC planners took the wraps off the proposal.

"We simply have to make it happen."

It's a plan that TTC Chair Adam Giambrone said, "will restore Toronto's stature as a leader in urban transit."

The Toronto Transit City – Light Rail Plan calls for 120 kilometres of electric light rail along seven underserved routes. When complete, the network would carry 175 million riders a year, of which 75 million would be new TTC users.

Included in the cost estimates is the purchase of 240 quieter, more accessible streetcars like those already planned for the refurbishment of the existing fleet.

"The dollars are substantial," conceded Giambrone. "Without the support of all orders of government, transit cannot work." 

Neither the provincial nor the federal government has committed funds for the project and Giambrone admitted that even raising Toronto's one-third share of the cost will be a challenge.

But, he said, "we have to start somewhere. People don't give you money for plans that don't exist."

"No Torontonian should be disadvantaged because they don't own a car," said Giambrone. "(Transit) brings light back to neighbourhoods that have suffered decay over the last 15 years." 

Miller said he'll continue to push, with other big-city mayors, for a national transit strategy that provides stable, sustained funding.

The city is playing its part by switching its emphasis away from high-cost subways, he said.

"By using LRTs rather than subways...it's affordable, it's realistic," he said. 

It doesn't, however, mean the city is abandoning subways, said Giambrone. More transit users would bring more subway riders, he said.

Miller said the province can give the plan a lift by relaxing its environmental assessment procedures for transit projects. Current rules can tie up a project for two years, Miller said, which makes little sense because the projects benefit the environment.

Putting the plan before the dollars isn't necessarily a bad strategy, said Ryerson University Professor James Mars.

He likes the plan, with a few reservations. 

The Sheppard East Corridor, for example, would require most passengers to transfer through the transit system at least twice.

But Mars says politicians have frequently backed transit plans to win voter support and with federal and provincial elections looming, there's unprecedented interest in reducing traffic congestion and improving the environment.

Before the proposal goes ahead, however, Mars wants to see the province's new regional transit authority, which doesn't begin meeting until next week, get up and running.

The TTC plan needs input from experts and the public – "a view that's not predicated on an election" – Mars said.

A group that may not be as supportive of the transit expansion is the population that has no choice but to drive, because of work or other demands, said Teresa Di Felice of the South Central Ontario branch of the Canadian Automobile Association. 

The city has already shelved a $300 million backlog of road repairs this year, and is considering taxing motorists through road tolls, parking fee hikes and licence registrations, she said. 

"We know our members are environmentally conscious and would like to see an improvement in transit but they're also motorists and they're continually facing punitive measures," said Di Felice.

The CAA has 1.7 million members, about half of them in the Toronto region.


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## Truepioneer (Feb 25, 2007)

Keeping the Streetcars is one of the best decisions Toronto has ever made along with not building the Spadina Expressway. 

We might not get the same funding from the federal government that other world class cities do but atleast on the local level people in Toronto have an excellent mind set when it comes to urban issues.

Unfortunately there is no way that LRT can ever be used to substitute a subway line.


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

Truepioneer said:


> an excellent mind set when it comes to urban issues


What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!


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## leaf345 (Dec 21, 2006)

elkram said:


> An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!


hno:


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## Zaki (Apr 16, 2005)

elkram said:


> What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!


What urban decay? Have you ever been to Toronto? If Toronto really was decaying, why do we keep moving up in the standard of leavingrank and now are ranked in the top 10, the only large city in the top 10.


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## Homer J. Simpson (Dec 2, 2003)

elkram said:


> What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!


LOL, I dont even know what to say about that.

It must suck to be so threatened by a city hundreds of kilometers away.


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## leaf345 (Dec 21, 2006)

I dont quite understand how Toronto can have urban decay. After all, it isn't even a city! Isn't that right, elkram?


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## Electrify (Mar 19, 2007)

Don't mind taking the strretcar for short transfers to and from the subway, but when travelling outside of downtown I almost always find it faster to take the Bloor-Danforth line across and then transfer on to a southbound bus.


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## Truepioneer (Feb 25, 2007)

elkram said:


> What on earth would that be, huh? An excellent mind set, with urban decay all around it -- cheesh !!



Ehhhh....I wouldn't consider Toronto in urban decay.

Urban stagnation in some aspects yes.


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## addisonwesley (Jun 19, 2005)

Homer J. Simpson said:


> LOL, I dont even know what to say about that.
> 
> It must suck to be so threatened by a city hundreds of kilometers away.


Haha, zing!


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

leaf345 said:


> I dont quite understand how Toronto can have urban decay. After all, it isn't even a city! Isn't that right, elkram?



Ignore elkram. He is either a bit "simple" or an old alcoholic, or simply off his meds again. Either way he is a deeply unhappy man and spends much of his life being bitter about Toronto. Sad man, and I think he needs help, poor thing.


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

Steve Munro's website (http://stevemunro.ca) has a lot of interesting information and discussions and comments about the Transit City plans....

In fact there was so much info and so many comments he had to divide things into 7 separate forums to discuss the different lines (e.g. north, northwest, west, east, central south, etc...)

Cheers, m


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## mr.x (Jul 30, 2004)

Whether or not it is the best solution to solving Toronto's transit woes, at least something is trying to be done here....and I welcome it. Can't wait to see it complete! I was gawking reading 120 kms and over $6 billion! *thumbs up*


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*TTC light rail vehicles *
15 June 2007
The Toronto Star

Toronto's transit agency will buy 204 streetcars for $1.4 billion to replace existing fleet. Two will arrive in 2010 for testing and the next 48 are due by 2012, with another 26 delivered each year until 2018. The final configuration has not been set. 

THE FEATURES 

LOW FLOOR: Vehicles will meet Toronto's curb and platform heights, ending struggles with strollers and wheelchairs. Meets needs of an aging population. 

STOP ANNOUNCEMENTS: Automated audio and visual stop announcements will improve accessibility for visually and hearing impaired riders. 

COMFORT: Cars will be air-conditioned. 

SEATING: To be determined. TTC officials want public input on the position and number of seats. Streetcars typically hold about 80 riders versus about 50 on a bus. 

BIKES: Prototype shows a bike rack inside the car. 

CABIN: Driver could be sequestered because fare monitoring would be eliminated if the TTC moves to a fare smartcard passengers can scan. 

WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT: The model pictured here will be at the Finch subway station on June 25; Scarborough Centre RT station on June 26; Albion Centre, June 27, and Yonge-Dundas Square on June 28. 

Give your opinions and see models at www.mynewstreetcar.ca 

STILL TO BE DETERMINED: Colour. Whether the TTC rocket remains red might be the biggest question of all.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*TTC launches its road show
‘We're looking at defining our streetcars, the new image of Toronto for the 21st century' *
15 June 2007
The Globe and Mail

The TTC launched a new website yesterday to consult Torontonians about what they want to see in the next generation of the city's streetcars as the transit agency prepares to spend more than $1-billion to replace North America's biggest light-rail fleet. 

The site, www.mynewstreetcar.ca , contains little hard information about the Toronto Transit Commission's plans to buy more than 200 sleek, new low-floor streetcars – accessible to the disabled – as its current crop approaches 30 years of age. 

But it does feature a promotional video and photos of state-of-the-art light-rail vehicles from other cities, and it asks users for their comments. 

“When you think of Toronto, you think of the CN Tower, and you think of the Toronto Rocket,” TTC chairman Adam Giambrone told a press conference yesterday. “…Today, we're looking at defining our streetcars, the new image of Toronto for the 21st century.” 

The TTC also announced four “streetcar open-house” events that will run later this month to allow the public to have its say. 

The move appears to be part of a push to keep the agency's ambitious Transit City plan, which would add 120 kilometres of new streetcar lines by 2021, in the public eye. If the plan goes ahead – it still requires funding from other governments – the TTC says it would need 260 extra light-rail cars, on top of the 204 it plans to buy to replace the current fleet. 

Mr. Giambrone pointed to the environmental benefits of electric streetcars, which produce no tailpipe emissions, and added that the TTC is investigating buying wind or solar “green power” from Toronto Hydro to further reduce the streetcars' ecological footprint. 

The TTC held its press conference yesterday at the Ontario Science Centre, near Don Mills Road and Eglinton Avenue East, where two of the seven proposed light-rail routes in the $6-billion Transit City plan would intersect. 

On hand was a demonstration light-rail vehicle of the kind the TTC is hoping to buy. The sample car, a Bombardier Flexity model similar to those in Minneapolis and provided free of charge for the event by the Montreal-based firm, was mounted on a flat-bed truck. 

Controversy erupted last year over the TTC's subway-car purchase, in which the transit agency handed a $674-million contract to Bombardier without seeking bids from other firms in order to preserve jobs at the company's Thunder Bay plant. 

Asked whether the other firms likely to bid on the streetcar contract would question the TTC for putting a Bombardier vehicle on display yesterday, Mr. Giambrone said the firm was the only one that had a suitable model nearby. (The car had been on display in Quebec City.) 

He said the other firms expected to bid would be given an opportunity to provide a showroom model for public viewing. The TTC may put light-rail vehicles from other firms on display at this year's CNE, he added. In addition to Bombardier, the half-dozen firms interested in bidding on the contract include Italy's AnsaldoBreda, Germany's Siemens and the Czech Republic's Skoda. 

Bombardier may have another advantage going into competition for the streetcar contract. The TTC has hired a consultant to examine how much Canadian content it can demand as a condition in the new streetcar contract, perhaps as high as 30 per cent. Open houses 

• June 25 at Finch subway station. • June 26 at Scarborough Centre RT station. • June 27 at the Albion Centre in Etobicoke. • June 28 at Yonge-Dundas Square. 

The open houses will run from noon to 8 p.m. 

More GO power 

GO Transit unveiled a prototype of its brand-new locomotive yesterday, and the transit agency says the new, more reliable engines will mean fewer delays for commuters. 

The commuter rail service has ordered 27 new aerodynamic-looking locomotives, at a cost of $143-million, which are to start rolling into service later this year on the Lakeshore lines and the Milton line. 

GO, which has seen its reputation tarnished by complaints over increased delays in recent years, says the new, more fuel-efficient locomotives are also more powerful that the current fleet, which dates back to the late 1980s. 

The new vehicles can pull 12-car trains, two more cars than the current engines can manage. That translates into 300 more passengers per train. 

The contract with manufacturer MotivePower Industries in Boise, Idaho, gives GO the option of purchasing another 26 locomotives. GO says it plans to replace its entire fleet of 45, which were made by General Motors.


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.

They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.

Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.


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## WotaN (Jun 15, 2004)

elkram said:


> This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.
> 
> They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.
> 
> Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.


Maybe instead of breaking through open door it'd be better to see how good old Yurp where over 100 tram systems have managed to survive has dealed with that kind of problem. I can assure you that definitely not every track section here is separated from cars lanes and noone wants to do it. Simply there's no such need.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> This reversion to craving trams has become too much.



For who...you? And BTW...streetcars have ALWAYS been popular in Toronto...it's not some passing fancy other cities occaisionally jump on a bandwagon over.




> They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.



That's probably because none of them have any experience with either in Montreal, so what they "think" is basically irrelevent to determining which is actually better. Take it from someone who has had DAILY experience using both, and the streetcar is so superior to the electric trolly bus, it's not worth even asking about. Streetcars are better than buses period ...it doesn't matter what propels them. 






> Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated.



Hmmm...how much you want to bet that if the situation were reversed, you'd never stop shutting up about how superior Montreal was to Toronto because of their euro-style streetcar system. You are pretty predictable...if it's in Toronto, you will spin it to be bad. It's so obvious by now, that even if you made an actual intelligable comment, no-one would take you seriously. What a sad sack.

Anyway, as someone who uses one of these streetcars that travel in traffic on a regular basis, I can tell you that it's only at certain times of the day, and certain areas of downtown that it poses a problem in the first place.

Some old commercial streets are simply too narrow to allow for ROW streetcars and car lanes/street parking at the same time....so you compromise one way or the other. It doesn't have to be the perfect ideal situation to work. Even when there is ROW (Spadina, Harbourfront, St Clair), it isn't "perfect" either. 

When you have a very busy, dense and congested downtown core, surface travelling is NEVER going to be ideal, no matter what you do.




KGB


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

I still think the most glaring ommision of the TransitCity initiate is the gapping hole on the Sheppard line. Whether it be an extended subway to atleast hook up with the Spadina Ext or have the entire line transfered to rapid Jane
LRT to make it a true complete East/West rapid transit line like the Eglinton cross town route. 
I hope that there will be different stlye or atleast paint to make it easier to differentiate the regular streetcars from the new rapid LRT route. It would greatly help the travelling public. Also naming them different would help such as TTrain or whatever like OTrain or CTrain. Just as at Union you are informed of the way to GO and subway and Spadina/Waterfront streetcars. 

I thing thing like this will help but the fact that it is so comphrehensive, being built by 2020 so it will force Toronto to fast track the whole program and construction so it doesn't have to work on TTC time where they wouldn't even start contruction on any of them for atleast 5 years so they can study it to death,and the province paying 66% it will be a resounding success. 

I am truly drulling tou lucky bastards!! r


LRT


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

KGB said:


> the streetcar is so superior to the electric trolly bus


Either it's superior or not -- why bother guaging the extent of superiority should the supremeness of something ultimately reign. Can you prove this claim of yours _without_ becoming sulky :wink2:? (Most of you Toronto forummers really ought to re-read what you post -- you heap mounds of mounds of praise by way of phony modifiers, etc., etc., plus by the extent of your replies you end up soliciting you're embarassing yourselves and this country.)

Bendy, double-decker busses -- the capacity offered by busses nowadays ain't all that far behind trains-in-streets.

Be your own guests if you'd rather not promote your trams to LRTs . . . it's not as though anybody's going to (ahem) miss any thing . . .


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## p5archit (Feb 25, 2003)

elkram- dude your posts are non-sensical. What the hell are you trying to say anyways? You obviously have some issues with the city of Toronto, but in all of your comments you have failed to achieve anything except for make yourself look like a fool. By the way, please explain what a phony modifier in this context is- considering people tend to use them so regularly..
----------------done

p5


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

Holy christ...all that blather about a "so". We both know your position is weak, but I had no idea you were that far gone. Right...and I'm the national embarassment????




> Can you prove this claim of yours without becoming sulky


Yes I can... and a hell of a lot easier than it is for you to ask a question without being a complete troll. If your anti-Toronto rage is so out-of-control, why not just remove yourself from it and seek a 12-step program or something. Why you choose to continuously troll Toronto threads is really beyond me.






> Bendy, double-decker busses -- the capacity offered by busses nowadays ain't all that far behind trains-in-streets.



The advantages of streetcars go beyond simple vehicle capacity.





> Be your own guests if you'd rather not promote your trams to LRTs . . . it's not as though anybody's going to (ahem) miss any thing . . .


I'm hoping you can make sense of this...cause I sure can't.





KGB


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

elkram said:


> This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.
> 
> They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.
> 
> Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.


Reversion to craving trams?? WTF are you blithering about? Toronto never got rid of its streetcars. This thread is about Toronto's streetcars, not what some halfwits say in Montreal when they are interviewed by Le Journal de Montréal. I'm sure most of them have never seen a "tram" and think they are just those ridiculous sight seeing buses. If you don't want them in Montreal, big deal. We want them here. Why do you frequent any thread involving Toronto's transit system, or its streetcars? You have a weak grasp of the system and you habitually complain.


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## p5archit (Feb 25, 2003)

Just noticed this on the thread showcasing Melbournes streetcars: looks like the same LRT vehicle that the TTC shows on their little info site- I have also heard they are gunning for one particular model- could this be it?








courtesy of Yardmaster

Seems to only be a temporary addition to the fleet in Melbourne as well- testing possibly?

p5


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

Depressionesque? What's this guys problem? Does he think everyone on Toronto's streetcars is on their way to the breadline, or to sell moonshine to their Yankee neighbours? Wierd. 

Oh, and great thread!


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

gappa said:


> Depressionesque? What's this guys problem? Does he think everyone on Toronto's streetcars is on their way to the breadline, or to sell moonshine to their Yankee neighbours? Wierd.
> 
> Oh, and great thread!


The profile known as "elkram" (he has another profile, by the way) moved from Vancouver to a suburb of Montreal a number of years ago, and is mired in deep jealousy and anger toward Toronto (good old fashioned regional jealousy and ***** envy... and I suspect he has much to be envious of... LOL!).
Most of his entries sound like they are direct translations from Babelfish as he seems to struggle with the English language. I feel kind of sorry for him as he seems lonely, friendless and unhappy.


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

KGB said:


> all that blather about a "so".


Heh heh, you done it again, huh? "that", "so" -- only thing is, you keep strewing these boards with your aimless hype . . . I notice you T'o forummers squabble the most with folks here hailing from Sydney, Australia . . . all the while reminding me of the Bushes.

"Reversion", coz virtually the whole world wishes to bring back trams.

"Depressionesque", coz traffic jams of those decades pale when compared today's traffic-jam patterns.

Trams are great although they don't belong in the streets alongside autos. If trams must run in-street, then dedicate the remainder of traffic lanes (mind you, T'o's streets are too constricted to begin with) of the converted street to bicycle traffic, while ensuring tram drivers can override the traffic-signal sequences when approaching intersections. Sure, this vehicular prohibition I suggest might sound zany but folks would eventually adjust their (ahem) lifestyles.

I gather that establishing trolleys costs 1/50 of erecting in-street tramways, and take far less time to implement. Trams are prone to obstruction; trolleys can skirt around such impediments. Plus with the advent of the technology involving guidance beacons being embedded into asphalt, tramways risk becoming obselete all the sooner (due to the inherently excessive construction and maintenance costs).

You know, I shook my head some weeks ago when I saw the recent plan (map) depicting currently proposed tramways earlier in this thread -- a place with millions of people deserves better modes of transport than those outlined in the plan.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Heh heh, you done it again, huh? "that", "so"



Dude...you are about the last person who should be lecturing about grammar. Besides that, it's a pretty lame attempt at tap-dancing around the fact you don't seem to have nearly enough facts to debate the actual topic with.




> "Reversion", coz virtually the whole world wishes to bring back trams.


Well, if you were talking about other cities, then I might (almost) be inclined to agree with you that it's a trendy bandwagon many cities seem over-eager to jump on lately.

But...we aren't talking about other cities...we are talking about Toronto...a city which has had a well-used and well-loved streetcar network working continuously for more than 140 years. We already know they work well here. 

We already know that streetcars move more people, faster...than a bus running on the same route. 

We already know people prefer riding a streetcar over a bus...replace a bus route with a streetcar, and watch ridership climb. And ridership is an important factor in the transit business. 

This is not to say they would work well everywhere.





> Trams are great although they don't belong in the streets alongside autos.



Says who? Not that it's all that important, but they have been running in the streets of Toronto longer than autos have.

It's your logic that seems odd. Buses are somehow ok to be "running in the streets" with autos, while streetcars are not. Meanwhile, they are both just transit vehicles. The only difference is that the streetcar's wheels are on tracks. Do you have some kind of rubber fetish or something?

Oh...and what...now you think trams are great????? Or is it just that anything that is generally great just turn to shite when they are in Toronto? ha ha ha





> If trams must run in-street, then dedicate the remainder of traffic lanes (mind you, T'o's streets are too constricted to begin with) of the converted street to bicycle traffic, while ensuring tram drivers can override the traffic-signal sequences when approaching intersections. Sure, this vehicular prohibition I suggest might sound zany but folks would eventually adjust their (ahem) lifestyles.



Well, as I said before, this is only an issue at certain times in the downtown core...otherwise, cars and streetcars share the road just fine.

But, the things you speak of have already been contemplated (do you really think YOU know something the TTC people don't?...get over yourself). Next summer, a stretch of King will be doing just that. But while it's easy to "say" it, reality is something much different....taxpayers (aka businesses) do have some say, and politicians have to listen. Businesses get a little nervous about closing the streets to cusomer parking and deliveries. It's not as simple as you like to think.

And transit signal priority is already in place.






> I gather that establishing trolleys costs 1/50 of erecting in-street tramways, and take far less time to implement.



Well, I don't know about your 1/50th figure, but it doesn't matter...initial capital costs are not the trick...it's long term operating costs and efficiency and ridership growth that is key.






> Trams are prone to obstruction; trolleys can skirt around such impediments.


It's almost tiring to keep refuting this often quoted, but misguided claim. 

First off...why would you choose an inferior transit mode because of something that doesn't happen very often? You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Secondly, streetcars CAN get around an obstruction....they are alerted of it before hand, and can take one of the many short-turn routes located on either side of the "obstruction". An "obstruction" is generally an accident involving autos. They are generally moved out of the way quite quickly. And in such instances before they are, it blocks everything anyway...buses or streetcars aren't getting through. It's really a moot point.

There are other advantages the streetcar has, but I see little point in getting into a more comprehensive discussion about it with you.





> You know, I shook my head some weeks ago when I saw the recent plan (map) depicting currently proposed tramways earlier in this thread -- a place with millions of people deserves better modes of transport than those outlined in the plan.



Yea...well, you know what makes me shake my head? The fact that you think you have enough knowledge about it to even imagine you could form an opinion about it.





KGB


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## Nozumi 300 (Jan 10, 2007)

p5archit said:


> Just noticed this on the thread showcasing Melbournes streetcars: looks like the same LRT vehicle that the TTC shows on their little info site- I have also heard they are gunning for one particular model- could this be it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i saw someone on another board have their signature with that LRV in what he thinks TTC livery will look on them, and it looks really good


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

Few things are more rewarding that watching elkram get well and truly trod upon! :cheers:


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

KGB said:


> Says who? Not that it's all that important, but they have been running in the streets of Toronto longer than autos have.
> 
> It's your logic that seems odd. Buses are somehow ok to be "running in the streets" with autos, while streetcars are not. Meanwhile, they are both just transit vehicles. The only difference is that the streetcar's wheels are on tracks.
> 
> ...


Not taking elkram's side, but civil engineers will agree, better to run rail vehicles and road vehicles in segregated environments, not a shared thoroughfare. St.Clair, Spaidna etc., such models are great... but things like Queen (excluding Queensway and further west)? Not so hot.


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## elkram (Apr 1, 2006)

KGB said:


> why would you choose an inferior transit mode


You might be accusatory but at least you're passionate about this. Of all my comments, you didn't peg onto my claim about busses being refashioned into possessing promising technology that's coming on-stream, but then again nothing more than sheer mediocrity hails from Canada . . . move forward, be innovative.

At least King is a start (it's taken ages to implement, I heard about launching this plan years ago there).


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

I don't like the current streetcars, they are ugly, slow (even on dedicated ROWs) and dont carry a lot of people, can't wait to see their replacement when they arrive.


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## Roch5220 (Mar 7, 2003)

thats probably because you are relatively new to the city? a couple of years maybe? I think the ones that grew up through in Toronto like them for their nostalgia.


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## algonquin (Sep 24, 2004)

KGB said:


> We already know people prefer riding a streetcar over a bus...replace a bus route with a streetcar, and watch ridership climb. And ridership is an important factor in the transit business.
> 
> This is not to say they would work well everywhere.


Two major points here that I'd like to highlight, thank you KGB:

1. No one gets excited about buses. Streetcars are cool.

2. Streetcars don't work well everywhere, thats why the TTC system is a mixture of buses, heavy-rail subways, light-rail(streetcar) subways, streetcars w/ and w/o ROW's, and elevated light-rail. This combination gives Toronto by far the best transit system, and certainly the most varied, in Canada.


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## algonquin (Sep 24, 2004)

elkram said:


> This reversion to craving trams has become too much. Although I'm for this vehicle type, I'm strictly opposed to its being run in-street.
> 
> They're trying to revive a few tramways back here, and every resident who has recently cared to respond to the topic via the media here prefers electric trolley busses over trams any day.
> 
> Trains running down streets (trams, streetcars) is so Depressionesque, i.e., really flipping outdated. If public transport's going to make a real comeback, then these trams must certainly be limited to their very own rights of way.


You can't have ROW's in the inner city.

And maybe public transit is making a comeback in Montreal, but in Toronto it never left. Who gives a damn if montrealers want electric buses? That's your problem.

The term 'reverting' would apply to a city that, for nostalgic reasons, would install a streetcar system that they mistakenly removed almost a century ago. Toronto had the sense to keep it's system, and now enjoys a 140-year heritage of street-oriented transit, something that Montreal completely lacks.


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## Sen (Nov 13, 2004)

I like the Madrid-Barcelona system. I hope the proposed Toronto LRT network is anything like this.

-Sleek looking wide body continuous trains with low floor access

















-right of way and signalling priority (and partially underground, if possible)

















-LRT and BUS also don't exclude each other, you can have bus and LRT on the same route, bus can be the "local service", and LRT the "express service", with ROW implemented on Spadina I think the major reasons to its slow speed are frequent stops and low maximum speed. LRT is pointless if it can't go faster than a regular bus.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Not taking elkram's side, but civil engineers will agree, better to run rail vehicles and road vehicles in segregated environments, not a shared thoroughfare.



It doesn't take a civil engineer to figure that out...and to expand on that, it isn't so much the vehicle type that should be segregated, but public transit vehicles of any kind should have their own ROW and not be hampered by traffic.

But I think you're missing the point though...we weren't arguing ROW vs mixed-traffic, but which is the more successful transit vehicle when they DO run in mixed-traffic. 






> Of all my comments, you didn't peg onto my claim about busses being refashioned into possessing promising technology that's coming on-stream



Oh don't worry, I haven't overlooked a single morsel of your juicey commentary on the subject. What you fail to understand is that the key to the success of our streetcars over buses has nothing to do with technological improvements on the bus....it has to do with the fundemental differences between a bus and a streetcar.







> but then again nothing more than sheer mediocrity hails from Canada



Yea...that's really profound. 





KGB


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## Electrify (Mar 19, 2007)

KGB said:


> But I think you're missing the point though...we weren't arguing ROW vs mixed-traffic, but which is the more successful transit vehicle when they DO run in mixed-traffic.


Ahh, thanks for summing that up. My head was hurting trying to read this thread. Anyways, in mixed traffic, I would vote a bus just cause it is more maneuverable so it doesn't get screwed over if there is an accident on the tracks or stuck behind left turners (assuming it is running through the middle).

Also, while I'm sure my point will be debated by many (especially since it happens to agree with elkram's...), there is no argument that a bus is faster if the route has lots of turns in it.


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## algonquin (Sep 24, 2004)

^ what about capacity? A streetcar holds far more than a bus, and if traffic is snarled, both move at the same pace.

If an accident shuts down a street, both streetcar and bus have to choose a new route. Streetcar's do this all the time in Toronto when necessary, because the grid allows it.

As for the last point, due to Toronto's grid, there are rarely turns on any streetcar route.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> I'm sure my point will be debated by many (especially since it happens to agree with elkram's...)



I'm afraid elkram doesn't have such power....I disagree with him because I don't believe he is right...not just because it's him saying it. If he says something I agree with, I'll acknowledge it. That's just an unproven theory at the moment, mind you. he he





> Anyways, in mixed traffic, I would vote a bus just cause it is more maneuverable



As has already been pointed out, this theoretical manuverability advantage of the bus you think exists is rarely going to actually give it an advantage in a real life scenario on the streets of Toronto. Why would we throw out all of the proven advantages of the streetcar, to reap a small advantage that "might" exist with the bus? 

It's all about the net result, and when you weigh all of the factors of the two, the streetcar wins in the end.




KGB


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> if traffic is snarled, both move at the same pace.


Actually, the streetcar moves faster because it controls the traffic behind it, while the bus does not.

A bus can never load in the middle lane (the streetcar is only an odd exception simply because there is no other choice). When the streetcar stops, all traffic stops, allowing for the traffic in front to move, making a gap for the streetcar when it gets going again. A bus has to pull over to load/unload, allowing traffic to fill that gap by passing it on the left. The bus also has to generally change lanes all the time, which is only as good as the cars that let you in.

You see, the bus's manueverability is actually one of it's weaknesses.






KGB


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

There is certainly much room for improvement in Montreal's buses, however...anyone left standing in a big blue cloud of choking fumes will attest to that. And what is with them not allowing you to take your bike on a bus? Perhaps elkram should take that thought and... carry it over to the _Montreal_ thread. The truth is, Montrealers (well, the _real_ ones, anyway) would be thrilled to bits to get "trams" back, and I can't imagine many are happy that they did the "sheep thing" and got rid of them all back in the 50's in favour of diesel guzzling buses. In any case, elkram will never have to encounter a "tram" out in the suburb of Laval where he lives. He is more used to the trolley buses from when he lived in Vancouver and I doubt has ever experienced the urban thrill of an actual streetcar system.


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

KGB said:


> Actually, the streetcar moves faster because it controls the traffic behind it, while the bus does not.
> 
> A bus can never load in the middle lane (the streetcar is only an odd exception simply because there is no other choice). When the streetcar stops, all traffic stops, allowing for the traffic in front to move, making a gap for the streetcar when it gets going again.
> 
> ...


The only problem to this is the passenger safety angle. Some drivers don't stop. I know, I've almost been hit trying to get off a streetcar, and more than once, I might add.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

TRZ said:


> The only problem to this is the passenger safety angle. Some drivers don't stop. I know, I've almost been hit trying to get off a streetcar, and more than once, I might add.


In my past, the time or two I was nearly decked was by an out of town driver. Once a guy from Saskatchewan nearly creamed me, as he obviously had no idea
what the streetcar was doing. You really have to look when you step off the car, and most drivers are keenly aware of approaching traffic and will caution you.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year.

Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.





KGB


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## algonquin (Sep 24, 2004)

^ I'll never understand why they didn't install stop signs like those on school buses... seems like a no-brainer to me. Won't stop some people, but it would help.

Man oh man, nothing riles up that wonderful righteous pedestrian rage than some asshole blasting past an open streetcar door.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year. Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.KGB




In my experience the streetcar drivers really do take their jobs seriously, and ensure the coast is clear before they open the doors. They are always leaning over and peering... they caution people frequently to be careful. I think only a daft pillock would use that lame excuse to get rid of the streetcars in Toronto. I have descended from streetcars thousands of times in my life, and only twice have been surprised by errant motorists.. both out of towners. I've been nearly creamed or mowed down by buses in various cities.


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## gappa (Mar 13, 2007)

In Melbourne the older style trams had extended (by the doors) stop signs but then new ones don't, as their doors slide back against the side of the tram.
Personally I've seen someone hit by a car that didn't stop for him as he alighted, but this is quite rare. In Victoria (the state in which Melbourne's located) there are questions on trams in the driving test so all locals know of the dangers and what is the lawful thing to do. And also in the trams, there are signs telling commuters to check for traffic before alighting.
Another way to reduce the risk is the construction of 'super stops' which are like mini train platforms in the middle of the road. These completely seperate commuters from traffic except from the trams themselves.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> there are questions on trams in the driving test so all locals know of the dangers and what is the lawful thing to do.



Everybody knows what the deal is here...sure, there may be the odd out-of-towner who has no knowledge of how the streetcar thing works (and is too daft to bother reading the large signs posted right on the streetcar). But basically, all the people who dangerously whiz by the streetcar are people who know very well, but are hell-bent on getting past the streetcar and seem to think death-defying feats of driving is a sane idea at the time. 

There's nothing more dangerous than an impatient driver.

The worse part isn't the risk-the-life-of-streetcar-passenger to get where you are going 26 seconds sooner, it's the race-the-streetcar at the intersection when the light turns green to get in front, when there are parked cars ahead blocking the right lane.






> And also in the trams, there are signs telling commuters to check for traffic before alighting.



Our streetcars have the same signs. Thankfully, the drivers are aware of the oncoming traffic, and generally won't even open the doors until they see traffic stopped first. 

And not to put all the blame on cars, as streetcar passengers need to pay more attention. But as we all know, these days most people are in their little self-induced semi-comas....between the cell phones and Ipods, most people are only vaguely aware of what's going on around them. And it's amazing how many people risk their lives running across red lights to catch a streetcar. King streetcars run every two minutes...where's the logic risking your life to save two minutes???????


I'd like to summerize by saying...HUMANS ARE STUPID!! and I'm moving to another planet ASAP.





KGB


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## allurban (Apr 7, 2006)

Sen said:


> I like the Madrid-Barcelona system. I hope the proposed Toronto LRT network is anything like this.
> 
> -right of way and signalling priority (and partially underground, if possible)


I love the turf ROW...I would love to see something like that in Toronto...could they start on Queensway?

Cheers, m


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

KGB said:


> Well, whenever pedestrians and road vehicles interact, a level of caution must be observed....that's just common sense. But I don't see this as any excuse to get rid of streetcars. People must be awful careful, cause I don't think anyone has ever been killed getting on or off a streetcar...yet plenty of pedestrians are killed in other interactions with vehicles every year.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't see this as a valid arguement against streetcars.
> 
> ...


It wasn't an argument against streetcars at all, it was an argument on where they can be improved, an area of concern that can be addressed. It is an argument for central road platforms. 

I think someone being killed getting off a streetcar has happened before, but I agree it is extremely rare and almost doesn't happen. Even if people aren't getting killed though, if this is something that can be improved, I think it would be worthwhile.

T,B: I agree that that is true if you get off at the front doors. Can't do much for you getting off at the back though.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Tcmetro said:


> be more compatible.


Oh? What usefulness are you conceiving? Intercity railed freight barging cars out o' da way?

hno:


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## Tcmetro (Jun 9, 2007)

I ment that if the TTC had to get an emergancy order are something, they could get some trains from another city or something, plus non standard gauge trains cost more (I think), It's not like the TTC needs extra money though...


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

Tcmetro said:


> I ment that if the TTC had to get an emergancy order are something, they could get some trains from another city or something, plus non standard gauge trains cost more (I think), It's not like the TTC needs extra money though...


You're not the first one to bring this issue up. This angle's been around. Adjusting the wheels' spacing is very minor and easily adjusted. It only needs to be done once anyway. It has no significant impact on costs, as it is nothing maintenance yards can't handle.


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## Buster (Sep 1, 2003)

New trains are nice.

More ROW's are nicer.


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## ale26 (Sep 9, 2005)

So wait...is Toronto getting those new Bombardier Subway cars or not..i havent heard much about that lately??


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> When they put in new ties, why don't they shift the track to standard gauge, and buy standard gauge trains fore each line as it gets updated.


Cause those two things have never happened, or likely will ever happen simultaineuosly, and the lifespan of rails and streetcars are about 30 years. The cost of replacing track is far more expensive than converting the trucks on the vehicles.





KGB


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Streetcars to lose meddlesome middle pole *
3 November 2007
The Globe and Mail

It is the bane of many streetcar riders, especially those brave ones trying to get a stroller and a child up the steps: the maddening pole bolted right in the middle of the vehicle's entrance. 

Now, it is on its way out. 

Turns out the pole and obstructive gate-like structure at the top of the stairs – originally meant to force riders to board single-file so everyone paid their fare – is no longer needed. 

A test vehicle has been operating without the pole or the gate for the past month without any negative effects, so the transit agency now plans to alter the rest of the fleet. 

“It's like a stone in your shoe … and it just bugs you and you can't get it out,” said Toronto Transit Commission vice-chairman Joe Mihevc, who originally introduced a motion in July asking agency staff to look into removing the nuisance. “And now we're getting it out.” 

While it will be at least a decade before a new fleet of modern light-rail vehicles make the streetcar system truly accessible to everyone, removing this pole – called a stanchion – will make boarding the current streetcars less of a bother. 

“Anyone who rides a streetcar knows how crazy-making these stanchions are,” Mr. Mihevc said in an interview. “They are people-unfriendly, and certainly anybody with a baby carriage or a stroller finds them impossible.” 

Mr. Mihevc said concerns about fare evasion have decreased as the sale of Metropasses has dramatically increased, with 250,000 of the monthly passes in circulation.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

When do they decide between Siemens and Bombardier?


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

i don't think they're buying either. They're looking at the Cezch company that had a hand building the current cars.


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## Canadian74 (Jul 29, 2007)

Is there a date when they will announce the winner? Bombardier might have a pretty good chance since they also ordered their subway cars from BBD and will probably get a nice discount?


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## Electrify (Mar 19, 2007)

I liked the middle poll.


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## noob(but not really) (Feb 3, 2007)

*pole

Are you serious?


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## Electrify (Mar 19, 2007)

noob(but not really) said:


> *pole
> 
> Are you serious?


Actually, I was getting it confused with the railing on the back door. Could care less about that pole actually.


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

from the 5 times that I took the streetcar in the past 10 years, I actually find that pole convinent in pulling my self onto the vehicle


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

[unPC]And now, with that pole out of the way, fat people can ride the streetcar[/unPC]


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*City's budget for streetcars too high, bidder says *
9 November 2007
The Toronto Star

An Ottawa company is bidding to build the TTC's new streetcars, possibly bringing new jobs here and warning the city its budget is overly generous. 

Vossloh Kiepe Corp., the Canadian subsidiary of a German conglomerate, hopes to build the 204 light-rail vehicles in Toronto, president Peter Maass confirmed last night. 

"We supply equipment and partner with local companies as much as possible to manufacture at source," said Maass. He spoke to the Star in advance of a news conference today, "a major announcement of how we're going to be proceeding." 

Maass wouldn't reveal the name of Vossloh Kiepe's potential partner but said it would not be Bombardier, which is also in the running for the contract along with Siemens Canada. 

He said the city appears to be willing to spend more than necessary on replacing its aging streetcar fleet. "The budget, as stated by the city of Toronto, is in the neighbourhood of $7 million per streetcar. It's rather high, well above the market price." 

Maass wouldn't specify what he believes the market price should be. 

That's in spite of Toronto having "a challenging network of tracks," Maass said. 

"There's no existing vehicle in the world that you can take and run on this system. The track gauge is a little bit wider than most systems, but that's not much of an encumbrance. It's the very tight-radius curves, especially in tunnels. They make it extremely challenging to manoeuvre with any vehicle." 

The radius of some curves on TTC tracks, he said, is more than twice as tight as "a typical light-rail system." It's one reason why streetcars sometimes make an ear-splitting screech when they turn. 

"We think there'll be an interesting discussion coming up to pick the best technology to deal with this," Maass said. "There's reliability and maintainability and also safety concerns ... the potential for derailment, especially in tunnels." 

Vossloh Kiepe, he said, is currently working on a $250 million contract to supply Vancouver with 228 trolley buses, working with Winnipeg-based New Flyer. Vossloh Kiepe's 102-year-old parent company is based in Dusseldorf and has had, Maass said, a long relationship with Bombardier. "Most of their light-rail vehicles in Europe have our electrical propulsion systems."


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## noob(but not really) (Feb 3, 2007)

Electrify said:


> Actually, I was getting it confused with the railing on the back door. Could care less about that pole actually.


Yeah, that pole sucks.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

$7 million per vehicle is an absurd amount of money. Most LRT trains run between 2-3 million per vehicle including articulated ones.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Low floors will give bumpy ride, new bidder for streetcars says
Partial low-floor design would be better, Dusseldorf-based manufacturer advises TTC *
9 November 2007
The Globe and Mail

Toronto is taking a risk on an unproven technology for its next generation of streetcars that would make for a bumpier ride and more breakdowns, according to a new competitor for the up-to-$1.4-billion contract. 

The Toronto Transit Commission and other firms bidding for the contract insist that the ground-hugging “100-per-cent low-floor” design specification is reliable and will be better for all passengers, including the disabled. 

With an eye on the TTC's expected demands for Canadian content, Dusseldorf-based Vossloh Kiepe is to announce today that it is teaming up with auto and bus parts manufacturer Martinrea International Inc., based in Vaughan, Ont., to compete for the contract. Other firms that have expressed interest in building 204 light-rail vehicles to replace the TTC's current iconic fleet include Montreal's Bombardier, Germany's Siemens, Czech-based Skoda and the French firm Alstom.

The winner may be called upon to build even more new vehicles if the city's ambitious light-rail expansion plans go ahead. 

Peter Maass, president of Vossloh Kiepe's Canadian arm – which has only a handful of employees, says the TTC's recent decision to restrict the competition to designs for 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles is a bad move, because the new technology is unreliable and produces a much bumpier ride since passengers are closer to the ground. 

“It is the roughest ride. When you are standing or sitting in it, you are getting this jarring right up your spine, like you wouldn't believe,” Mr. Maass said in an interview, adding that some cities in Europe are going back to partial low-floor designs. “... You feel like you are getting tossed around in the vehicle.” 

Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC, said 100-per-cent low-floor cars he has ridden offered a smooth ride, with the exception of one in Helsinki, where he believed the track system may have been partly to blame. 

“I have ridden low-floor streetcars all over the world. ... All of them were perfectly comfortable,” Mr. Giambrone said. 

TTC engineers believe the 100-per-cent low-floor cars are better for passenger flow, and because they lack stairs, reduce the chances of customers tripping on board. They have also concluded that, while the design will be challenging, 100-per-cent low-floor cars may actually be better on the system's unusually tight turns, and less likely to derail than partial low-floor vehicles. 

Mr. Maass said his firm will offer the TTC a completely low-floor vehicle if asked, but will try to persuade the transit agency next week to allow it to bid with a 70-per-cent low-floor car based on one it helped build for the German city of Leipzig. 

Partial low-floor vehicles use traditional light-rail technology, raised like the current TTC fleet at the front and back, but with a lower middle section for disabled passengers to board. 

To make the entire car low-floor means making its propulsion system and other components much smaller, Mr. Maass said, requiring “experimental” technology that can break down. He added that getting such a radical new design to work on the TTC's tracks, which have extremely tight turns and steep hills compared with many European systems, will be an added challenge. 

Certainly, Siemens – considered one of the front-runners for the TTC's streetcar deal, along with Bombardier – has had many problems with its 100-per-cent low-floor light-rail vehicles in Europe in recent years, after it emerged that the streetcars' frames were cracking from the strain of the new design. 

The debacle with the firm's Combino model – forerunner of the modified Combino Plus that it intends to offer Toronto – forced the German transportation giant to recall hundreds of light-rail vehicles from European cities over the past five years, costing it as much as $500-million. 

Mario Péloquin, Siemens director of business development for Canada, said the Combino's problems has been solved, and he strongly denied the charge that low-floor technology is flawed. 

“… It is proven technology,” he said in an interview, adding that the trend is clearly toward 100-per-cent low-floor vehicles. 

Mr. Péloquin disagreed that the cars give a jarring, bumpy ride: “As a passenger, you can feel more what's happening on track below the train. But I wouldn't say it is bumpy. There's been a lot of technological advancements.” 

Bombardier Transportation vice-president Mike Hardt also stood by the 100-per-cent low-floor design, which his firm plans to offer the TTC. 

Bombardier was embroiled in a controversy during the last major TTC purchase, when the transit agency made a $674-million deal with the firm to build 234 new subway cars without accepting bids from other companies to protect jobs at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant. This time, the TTC is accepting bids, but may include Canadian-content provisions.


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

^^^

in another article this company said that TTC's budget is too high, and it should be shrinked. What they're doing is child's play, and it is very unprofessional. It is usually considered rude to go public with your customer's design, before they even approved you as a contractor. It is even more rude to exploit public opinion and push your customer into a coner, in trying to win the bid. This is close to blackmail, and I dont think TTC will take it.

The chairman's response has pretty much sealed the loss for this company.


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## brugghen (Jan 21, 2005)

*Movie Toronto in the 80s*

Here is how Toronto looked like about 25 years ago






Regards

Wouter


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

so let me get the right, within the past 25 years, all the trollies and PPC cars are retired without any replacement??????

man we've went down in transit.


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## Epi (Jul 21, 2006)

Here's a question that might have been entertained at some time in the past.

Just as an interesting proposal, instead of building new subways downtown how about this:

Revamp the Adelaide line, and run it all the way out to Shaw/Strachan (or whatever is suitable). Do the same with a new Wellington line. At the other end it would meet up at Parliament or somewhere else suitable. Add in a workaround for Clarance Square (at Wellington and Spadina), and I think it could work. It would take some coordination, but I don't think it would be impossible.

Then make it so that every other King streetcar will go down to Adelaide (to go east) or come up from Wellington (to go west) instead of going straight on King.

Yes it's a lot of construction, but with the one-way roads, it would only cut off 1-2 lanes of traffic at a time leaving the road still open for business during construction. It would forgo the problem with having a politically difficult transit mall for King, and would provide adequate coverage of the CBD, while splitting up riders to maximize capacity. And besides, Adelaide<-->Wellington is only about 250 metres, so it's not that far to walk.


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

Epi said:


> Here's a question that might have been entertained at some time in the past.
> 
> Just as an interesting proposal, instead of building new subways downtown how about this:
> 
> ...


You might be onto something. It has some problems (two directions served by separate streets may be confusing or inconvenient to riders), but it could be worth a closer look.

I have doubts it would remove the need for a transit mall though. However, as LRV lengths will have limitations regardless as long as they share roads with other traffic for even part of the route, such a relief scheme could have its place in the heart of Condominia.


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

^^^^
is that financially feasiable for the TTC?


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## canadave87 (Oct 8, 2007)

TRZ said:


> You might be onto something. It has some problems (two directions served by separate streets may be confusing or inconvenient to riders), but it could be worth a closer look.


Not necessarily. It works okay in Ottawa, where the westbound Transitway goes down Slater Street, and the eastbound goes down Albert.


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## Nomels (Jun 10, 2006)

Why do you keep calling tram a "streetcar"? It is a tram! What does it mean a "streetcar" - a car on the street?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ It's North American termanology for trams. They're perfectly entitled to call them whatever they want in the context of their cities. They can call them pink spotted purple elephants as long as they use the correct termanology relative to other cities when referring to other cities infrastructure for all I care.

C'mon mate, learn some respect.


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## Nomels (Jun 10, 2006)

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ It's North American termanology for trams. They're perfectly entitled to call them whatever they want in the context of their cities. They can call them pink spotted purple elephants as long as they use the correct termanology relative to other cities when referring to other cities infrastructure for all I care.
> 
> C'mon mate, learn some respect.


They can do whatever they want, all i am saying is:

Its common sense v.s. respect
-The whole world is saying mobile phone, but americans say cell phones
-The whole world is calling taxi a "taxi" - americans call them a cab

I need to know the american terminology to find a relevant information - its pathetic:lol: Its even not on WIKI - the "pink spotted purple elephant"
:cheers: dude


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## deasine (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm sure we can call it whatever we want nomels... honestly, you have absolutely no right in regulating who calls what on these forums... what's common sense to you (or in your region) does not mean it's common sense to us. what's common sesne to us is that we call it StreetCars. 

Now if you have any complaints on the term that's being used, note that the TTC calls it StreetCar, you can go ahed and complain about that to them.

Proof: http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/rideguide.pdf


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## Nomels (Jun 10, 2006)

deasine said:


> I'm sure we can call it whatever we want nomels... honestly, you have absolutely no right in regulating who calls what on these forums... what's common sense to you (or in your region) does not mean it's common sense to us. what's common sesne to us is that we call it StreetCars.
> 
> Now if you have any complaints on the term that's being used, note that the TTC calls it StreetCar, you can go ahed and complain about that to them.
> 
> Proof: http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/rideguide.pdf


:nuts: Don't freak out and don't take it personally:cheers: Its just so annoying that info is burried


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## Vancouverite (Nov 28, 2006)

I seriously doubt you cannot find anything on wikipedia about streetcars. I just wiki'd streetcars and it automatically directs you to trams and the first line reads: 

_"A tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car, or *streetcar* is a railborne vehicle, lighter than a train, designed for the transport of passengers (and/or, very occasionally, freight) within, close to, or between villages, towns and/or cities, primarily on streets."_ 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Streetcars&redirect=no

Nomels, welcome to the 21st, globalized century were we can interact and learn about each other's cultures, _*language*_, and ideas. You have astutely noted that North Americans, not just people in the United States of America, call certain things by different names than other people. Guess what, there a thousands and thousands of different words for common things. It's called "language". Are you losing sleep over the fact that an elevator is called a lift in England? What about the fact that football is called soccer in North America? 

A streetcar is a tram is a trolley. _Get over it. _


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## Nomels (Jun 10, 2006)

Vancouverite said:


> I seriously doubt you cannot find anything on wikipedia about streetcars. I just wiki'd streetcars and it automatically directs you to trams and the first line reads:
> 
> _"A tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car, or *streetcar* is a railborne vehicle, lighter than a train, designed for the transport of passengers (and/or, very occasionally, freight) within, close to, or between villages, towns and/or cities, primarily on streets."_
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link, I didnt get anything in WIKI because I typed "street car":bash: 

Hey, take it easy, it is lift indeed and football not soccer.

"American football" players are barely touching it with their legs:lol::lol:hno:


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## Nomels (Jun 10, 2006)

Vancouverite said:


> I seriously doubt you cannot find anything on wikipedia about streetcars. I just wiki'd streetcars and it automatically directs you to trams and the first line reads:
> 
> _"A tram, tramcar, trolley, trolley car, or *streetcar* is a railborne vehicle, lighter than a train, designed for the transport of passengers (and/or, very occasionally, freight) within, close to, or between villages, towns and/or cities, primarily on streets."_
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link, I didnt get anything in WIKI because I typed "street car":bash: 

Hey, take it easy, it is lift indeed and proper football is played everywhere apart from NA not soccer.

"American football"??? players are barely touchingthe ball with their legs:lol::lol:hno:


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## Nomels (Jun 10, 2006)

Anyway, I hope more trams and metros are gonna be built on both sides of the lake


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

nomels said:


> "American football"??? players are barely touchingthe ball with their legs:lol::lol:hno:


I'll :cheers: to that remark, I feel the same way. Europe understands REAL football!

But who in the world calls a truck a "lorry"?:nuts: :lol:


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## Epi (Jul 21, 2006)

nomels said:


> Thanks for the link, I didnt get anything in WIKI because I typed "street car":bash:
> 
> Hey, take it easy, it is lift indeed and proper football is played everywhere apart from NA not soccer.
> 
> "American football"??? players are barely touchingthe ball with their legs:lol::lol:hno:


There are more native English speakers in North America then there are native English speakers in the rest of the world.

By the way, the term 'soccer' is widely known, and the Brits do use it from time to time. Considering they invented the game, and invented English, I think it's okay 

Now back to streetcar talk!


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Rebooting the TTC *
14 November 2007
The Toronto Star

The Toronto Transit Commission is considering entering the information age with a $6 million project that should have arrived long ago, instead of coming next year at the earliest. 

TTC commissioners are to discuss today a program that would introduce "smart" transit shelters that electronically tell commuters when their next bus or streetcar will arrive. The proposed new plan would also provide email and cellphone alerts regarding a vehicle's time of arrival, and allow the online purchase of tickets. 

The changes are meant to make public transit more user-friendly. In an age when everything from airline trips to jewellery can be bought online, it only makes sense to sell TTC tickets the same convenient way. 

Bus shelters with signs that electronically let people know how long they must wait, and email warning of delays, would improve TTC service by letting riders know where they stand. 

None of these approaches are especially new. GO Transit runs an email alert program, and York Region's VIVA transit system has shelters with LED displays showing bus arrival times. The TTC needs to get on board. Some critics complain about the program's cost, which is equal to the price of several buses. But it seems worth that much to shift Canada's largest transit system into the 21st century.


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## Electrify (Mar 19, 2007)

If they are going to use information displays, it should be installed first on the most unpredictable routes to keep track of (ie: streetcar routes). Most times, I find that suburban buses are able to keep to their schedules very well.


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

^^^^^

i have a feeling they're going into all the ROWs, all the subway busbays, and suburban (North of St. Clair in my books) major intersections.

very good trend that the TTC is taking. It'll cost us, but it'll be well worth it for the future.


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## canadave87 (Oct 8, 2007)

DENTROBATE54 said:


> If Toronto didn't have its long legacy of subway/streetcars, it'll be a lot easier to make a convincing argument for BRT. You'll find we're quite spoiled here though .


Try living in Ottawa for a few years, and you may change your opinion of BRT.


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## DENTROBATE54 (May 23, 2008)

TRZ said:


> Do you know that oil companies are one of the biggest backers of BRT? Guess what?, it isn't because it's an efficient transit mode, it is because it is inefficient and expensive. The higher the price of gas goes, the less viable BRT becomes.


Why are you overlooking the obvious fact that every commuter that's riding a BRT route isn't driving a car? The fuel consumption of one biodiesel bus vs. the smog produced by 30 cars. That's the grand difference here. Price of gas is negligible as transit operators often recieve subsidies to run vehicles. Hence what's their average cost for gas in contrast to an everyday individual is quite different.



> This is the same kind of thing that I was talking about in the other thread in the Ontario section; run the Sheppard LRT up along the east side fo the 404 to Finch from Sheppard near Consumers and then have it continue along Finch, clear across the city to Humber.


I haven't gotten over there yet, but you raise a good point. The Sheppard Lrt could serve Seneca College. However some major problems with that. First the Don Mills LRT would already run by there. Think the path of VIVA Green. The LRT will veer east on Finch Ave to directly serve Seneca. Hence redundancy. Second where exactly are you planning to route your ROW along the DVP? We can't have another Allen Exwy-type line again, you know that. Thirdly you're confiming that the "stubway" is utterly useless by having it remain a subway of only 7kms length (I'm assuming you plan on extending it to Consumers Rd). This creates a series of transfers just to make a single directional commute (YUS+stubway+Sheppard LRT). Also besides underused Old Cummer GO stn is there really any justification for _better-than-bus_ through the car-owning affluent neighbourhood on Finch East between Don Mills and Yonge?

This is why I proposed dismantling the "stubway" to create an uninterrupted, continuous trek to Yonge. Yonge/Sheppard isn't really the heart of NYCC either so why not run a ROW adjacent to the existing YUS line stopping at Empress/Park Home en route to Finch. You'll find routing it this way is cost- and time-effective and would serve far more commuters.



> One thing to note though; the trackbed is not the problem with the tunnels. If LRT vehicles didn't have pantographs, it would only be the platforms that need modification, nothing needs to be done about the trackbed, but because the vehicles do use pantographs, the tunnels are too short in height to give enough clearance; where the trackbed does enter the picture is in the special double-tie assembly that was employed for Sheppard, which makes the trackbed thicker than usual, meaning that, if removed, the trackbed could be made lower without actually changing the footings and foundation slab. This is currently under study, but I don't think it will fly since there will inevitably be big problems with lowering the platforms because this kind of thing was never considered at the design stage, meaning that major conflicts are virtually guaranteed and will be very complicated [expensive] to resolve.


And these pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing Sheppard subway infrastructure? 



> Why are you even bothering to compare the Transit City network to the legacy network? It is clear that they are intended to be very different. It is also foolish to call the legacy network "bullshit". The management of the legacy network, however, could definately be called "bullshit".


Indeed the management is bullshit, but the LRV is a tangible object one can point the blame stick at !


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

canadave87 said:


> Try living in Ottawa for a few years, and you may change your opinion of BRT.


It didn't impress me *at all* its first summer in service (21 years or so ago?) -- and now look 'n' ride it, pretty dilapidated!


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

DENTROBATE54 said:


> Why are you overlooking the obvious fact that every commuter that's riding a BRT route isn't driving a car? The fuel consumption of one biodiesel bus vs. the smog produced by 30 cars. That's the grand difference here. Price of gas is negligible as transit operators often recieve subsidies to run vehicles. Hence what's their average cost for gas in contrast to an everyday individual is quite different.


You're thinking only in terms of emmissions and road space, you need a more wholistic perspective, I'd argue. While fuel efficient busses will of course help deal with the issue of gas prices, there are other issues that give it serious disadvantages, most notably upkeep costs, which is higher than that for LRT per rider because BRT will require more staff and maintenance (more vehicles but also higher degrees of daily wear an tear due to higher friction coefficients of roads versus those of rail) as well as higher capital investment for stations because BRT requires more space than LRT. The price of gas is not negligible for the operator, and you must think about the operations side of things because transit costs money to run; that's why we pay a fare in the first place, and gas prices are related to fare hikes, even though transit is subsidized today (wasn't always, it used to be profitable until 1970).





DENTROBATE54 said:


> I haven't gotten over there yet, but you raise a good point. The Sheppard Lrt could serve Seneca College. However some major problems with that. First the Don Mills LRT would already run by there. Think the path of VIVA Green. The LRT will veer east on Finch Ave to directly serve Seneca. Hence redundancy.


It's not redundancy, it is called a transfer node, and is an important node if the Sheppard LRT is not going to be at Don Mills and Sheppard as would be the case with this alignment.


DENTROBATE54 said:


> Second where exactly are you planning to route your ROW along the DVP? We can't have another Allen Exwy-type line again, you know that.


I know you haven't checked the other thread, but I did explain this already there; there's a readily-available green corridor on the east side of the 404. It also wouldn't matter if it was an "Allen" style in this case since there wouldn't be a stop along it, except possibly at Van Horne.


DENTROBATE54 said:


> Thirdly you're confiming that the "stubway" is utterly useless by having it remain a subway of only 7kms length (I'm assuming you plan on extending it to Consumers Rd). This creates a series of transfers just to make a single directional commute (YUS+stubway+Sheppard LRT). Also besides underused Old Cummer GO stn is there really any justification for _better-than-bus_ through the car-owning affluent neighbourhood on Finch East between Don Mills and Yonge?


Yes, I'm extending the subway to Consumers in such a scenario, of course. However, it is hardly useless as I envision the Sheppard Line acting as the northern-most point of the DRL; the final extension after Eglinton Square would be to connect it to Sheppard via Vic Park. This makes the Sheppard Line an alleviator from Yonge rather than a feeder, which is a disaster waiting to happen if left as-is. Converting to LRT would not avert such a disaster either, because the feeder dynamic remains. As part of the DRL, the transfer at Consumers or VP/Parkwoods area (depending on what route you come from) becomes extremely attractive and useful - and sustainable.

As for Finch East not needing anything but bus service, why don't you download the service summary from the TTC web site and see how much service is run along Finch East between Yonge and Seneca; it is one of the busiest sections in the network, if not *the *busiest.




DENTROBATE54 said:


> This is why I proposed dismantling the "stubway" to create an uninterrupted, continuous trek to Yonge.


Which you would still have with a Finch routing as I proposed. Finch/Yonge and Sheppard/Yonge are about the same distance from NYCC; it's the next subway stop from either one.


DENTROBATE54 said:


> And these pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing Sheppard subway infrastructure?


As-is? No, there is no room for the overhead catanery infrastructure.





DENTROBATE54 said:


> Indeed the management is bullshit, but the LRV is a tangible object one can point the blame stick at !


Except you should recognize that the LRV here is the victim, along with its passengers, of bad management. Blame the managers since they're responsible for the mess the service is.


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## sonysnob (Dec 12, 2004)

I think those who are of the opinion that the Sheppard Subway should be abolished are short-sighted. There is a big need for a high-capacity, high-speed long distance travel in the north end of the city. If you are in doubt, look at the 401 a few kilometres to the south.

Transportation networks like subways last for a long time, and while in its present form the Sheppard Line doesn't serve much use, it could and should be completed as a subway to finally finish the long standing need for a high-capacity east-west transit alternative for the north.


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

sonysnob said:


> I think those who are of the opinion that the Sheppard Subway should be abolished are short-sighted. There is a big need for a high-capacity, high-speed long distance travel in the north end of the city. If you are in doubt, look at the 401 a few kilometres to the south.
> 
> Transportation networks like subways last for a long time, and while in its present form the Sheppard Line doesn't serve much use, it could and should be completed as a subway to finally finish the long standing need for a high-capacity east-west transit alternative for the north.


The big piece of the puzzle being overlooked here is where these 401 users are coming from. A GO service from Pickering or Seaton to Richmond Hill or North Toronto (respectively) would do more to attract the 401 crowd. Subways are not high speed, they are only medium speed since they are local in nature, usually (variations can of course allow for express services, but this has not happened in Toronto yet). GO would certainly be higher speed.


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

> As-is? No, there is no room for the overhead catanery infrastructure.


On one of Boston's T Lines the rolling stock switches between catenary in open air section and third rail in the tunnel. It's entirely doable to do the same in the Sheppard Subway tunnel


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

urbanfan89 said:


> On one of Boston's T Lines the rolling stock switches between catenary in open air section and third rail in the tunnel. It's entirely doable to do the same in the Sheppard Subway tunnel


I have read that the designs of 3rd-rail LRVs cannot be safely operated in Toronto's system, so while the technology has been applied in other cities, this is not at all doable in Toronto. Issues with the shoe (the part that touches the third rail to get the electricity from the rail to the vehicle) coming into contact with passengers.


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## DENTROBATE54 (May 23, 2008)

TRZ said:


> Oh, but the recent incident with the drunk TTC bus driver is doing your BRT advocacy such a huge favour. hno:
> 
> Your selective news highlighting is shameful.


Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...



> *Wrong turn causes death Car mounted TTC right-of-way -- and collided head-on with streetcar, police believe*
> By ROB LAMBERTI, SUN MEDIA
> Sat, June 28, 2008
> 
> ...


... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently hno:. 

Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imageant_Vienna_III.JPG


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

DENTROBATE54 said:


> Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...
> 
> 
> 
> ... these things seem to be happening more and more frequently hno:.


You're using a drunk driving instance to make an argument? You'll go to any length at all, won't you?hno: Although they haven't confirmed alcohol involvement yet, let's think about it, these people were on the way home from a party, and were too stupid to realize the raised right of way... they must have been drunk, nobody's this bad of a driver, not even suburbanites crash into streetcars. Your misinformed crusade against streetcars is comical at best.

Why don't you go on a crusade against GO Trains everytime a GO Train hits a car at a level crossing... it happens enough times every so often. This means GO Trains are "inherently flawed" by your logic. There was an accident on the Milton Line where someone on Trafalgar Rd. stopped at the crossing like they were supposed to, but then were rear-ended by a drunk driver that pushed the car in front of the GO Train. By your logic, this is the fault of the GO Train and its "inherent flaws", not the drunk driver, just like you are arguing above that the streetcar and "its inherent flaws" are responsible for this accident, not the (I'm presuming drunk) driver.



DENTROBATE54 said:


> Oh, and the present Sheppard Subway underground ROW can accomodate the pantographs of LRT vehicles, provided we utilize the right type of vehicles. Ones that can easily adapt to various heights of the overhead wires by partly folding. For example, the model below can run both open-air on the surface and in confined tunnels:


Do you remember when I mentioned the issue about keeping as much of the system on common vehicles as possible? Now you are proposing we get a special vehicle just for Sheppard. 

If you are going to design a custom vehicle, then yeah, sure, you could do it, but custom vehicles are very unecomical and there is no good argument to convert it if special vehicles are involved; defeats the purpose entirely if it is not going to be compatible with the rest of the Transit City (and to a lesser extent legacy) network(s).

I said that pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing tunnel as-is. This is true. However, if the track is replaced, without the double-tie system Sheppard uses, which reduces noise caused by vibrations, the height of the track's Top-of-Rail will be lower. This may allow it to be converted and is under study, but the operation is going to be extremely complicated no matter hwo they do it, which means it is going to be expensive, which means there is going to be a lot of arguments against it.

If money were unlimited, sure, we could engineer a conversion of Sheppard.

However, I argue it is obvious to make the infrastructure a sound investment rather than downgrade it is the most economical approach at all, even though Sheppard should never have been a subway in the first place.


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## DENTROBATE54 (May 23, 2008)

TRZ said:


> You're using a drunk driving instance to make an argument? You'll go to any length at all, won't you?hno: Although they haven't confirmed alcohol involvement yet, let's think about it, these people were on the way home from a party, and were too stupid to realize the raised right of way... they must have been drunk, nobody's this bad of a driver, not even suburbanites crash into streetcars. Your misinformed crusade against streetcars is comical at best.


Sorry, but if I were willing to go to any lengths I would've highlighted this gem:



> *It's the third collision involving a streetcar within the past 17 days. *


:yes:

If streetcars are so great and have been around long enough for the general public to know how to behave around them, tell me then, why is it that these accidents are spiking up to this level? 

These are the dangers involved when routing a rapid transit ROW down the median of high-use, local mixed pedestrian/motor roadways. Buses have quicker reaction time to adverse road conditions, like per se a careless driver or pedestrian getting in the path of a bus. Buses can and do more readily brake or swerve out of the way, saving lives. Streetcars would just plow right through... oops hno:!



> Why don't you go on a crusade against GO Trains everytime a GO Train hits a car at a level crossing... it happens enough times every so often. This means GO Trains are "inherently flawed" by your logic. There was an accident on the Milton Line where someone on Trafalgar Rd. stopped at the crossing like they were supposed to, but then were rear-ended by a drunk driver that pushed the car in front of the GO Train. By your logic, this is the fault of the GO Train and its "inherent flaws", not the drunk driver, just like you are arguing above that the streetcar and "its inherent flaws" are responsible for this accident, not the (I'm presuming drunk) driver.


Every GO line that I know of has well-defined gates to keep pedestrians and cars at bay. What you've described there is a freak accident. I don't seek out "inherent flaws" with the GO network except to say that some of its stations are unnecessary and backlog the system by incessantly stopping trains for said stops. However there *are* fundemental flaws with LRVs and how they're operated, and there's nothing comical about pointing that reality out!



> Do you remember when I mentioned the issue about keeping as much of the system on common vehicles as possible? Now you are proposing we get a special vehicle just for Sheppard.


:lol: We're still very much in the planning stage of Transit City. Why is everything so _set in stone_ in your mind? Has Bombardier even began to mass-produce the potential fleet yet? Is there even a concept model available for live display? Seen anything that isn't a computer sketch?

No I wasn't proposing anything unique for Sheppard, as the line would be able to interline with Finch West LRT, Eglinton-Crosstown, Scarborough-Malvern (known guarantees) and SRT (highly possible/probable).



> If you are going to design a custom vehicle, then yeah, sure, you could do it, but custom vehicles are very unecomical and there is no good argument to convert it if special vehicles are involved; defeats the purpose entirely if it is not going to be compatible with the rest of the Transit City (and to a lesser extent legacy) network(s).


:lol::nuts::hilarious Does or does not the Eglinton-Crosstown Line comprise a very significant, can't miss, tunneled portion for almost half its length? Jane and Don Mills have to buried south of St Clair/O'Connor. Tell me won't all these lines require vehicles that can operate equally efficient underground as they would on the surface? Sounds like collapsable pantographs/cataneries are a *must* for the majority of the proposed Transit City lines. Hence there's nothing unique about the vehicles that'd run through the "Stubway" ROW.



> I said that pantographs cannot be rendered into the existing tunnel as-is. This is true. However, if the track is replaced, without the double-tie system Sheppard uses, which reduces noise caused by vibrations, the height of the track's Top-of-Rail will be lower. This may allow it to be converted and is under study, but the operation is going to be extremely complicated no matter hwo they do it, which means it is going to be expensive, which means there is going to be a lot of arguments against it.


:lol: So you want the "Stubway" to remain a white elephant? Think today's ridership levels are bad, wait til there's a true through east-west alternative routing north the 401 vying for commuters. See yah :yes:!

But just as to further school you on the wonders of LRTs that are adaptable to both open-air surface and tunneled underground conditions, here's some pics. Enjoy !

































> If money were unlimited, sure, we could engineer a conversion of Sheppard.


Yes it'll cost a pretty penny to refurbish the existing line. But you know what stalling will do right? Costs will only inflate the longer we prolong the inevitable. Best to get the ball rolling, sooner than later. The line was at risk before when the city was cash-strapped. For it to go offline for a few years to make it a more viable and valuable alternative to the 401 for commuters, is a corrective course of action.



> However, I argue it is obvious to make the infrastructure a sound investment rather than downgrade it is the most economical approach at all, even though Sheppard should never have been a subway in the first place.


It will be a sound investment once travellers from as far west as Brampton (via Humber College) and from as east as Morningside Heights can utilize the "Stubway" as incorporated into a lengthier line which nodally hits Humber College> Albion Mall> Jane/Finch> Keele/Finch> Yonge subway> Fairview> Agincourt> McCowan/Sheppard> Malvern Town Centre. This will bring in far more commuters than the "stubway" alone ever will (an extension past VP would never fly, if even to there).


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Toronto could hand Bombardier a "signature" contract *

TORONTO, July 2 (Reuters) - Bombardier Inc appears poised to win a major contract to replace Toronto's fleet of streetcars, highlighting the growing global demand for the plane and train maker's light rail vehicles.

The contract, worth C$1.25 billion ($1.7 billion) for 204 new streetcars, is expected to go to the Montreal-based company after Germany's Siemens AG decided not to enter the bid.

Given growing concerns over pollution and congestion in major cities around the world, the light rail segment is likely to have long-term growth potential for Bombardier. It is already the world's No.1 provider of light rail equipment with customers in Europe and North America.

"It's green, it's politically correct," said Jacques Kavafian, analyst Research Capital, of the transit division, "It's got the whole environmental thing written on it, so I think it's going to be important."

The potential contract has an option for purchasing up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Toronto.

A spokesman for the TTC was unable to give a total value of the contract should the option be exercised, but a report in the Globe and Mail newspaper put the value at more than C$3 billion.

David Slack, a spokesman for Bombardier's transportation division, said the deal could stand as a "signature" contract for the company as Toronto is an important city for mass transit in North America.

"In terms of positioning ourselves as the leader of light rail vehicles in the world, it's very important in that regard," said Slack.

Bombardier and Britain's TRAM Power were the only two companies to submit bids to the proposals process, which the Toronto Transit Commission closed on Monday.

The TTC had stipulated that the streetcars needed to be completely wheelchair accessible, and that at least 25 percent of the content for the vehicles' design and construction would have to be Canadian.

The Canadian content requirement could help give a boost to the manufacturing sector in Ontario, which has been struggling to cope with the impact of the robust Canadian dollar.

For a contract of this size, the company would typically involve multiple plants in the process, Slack said. "Certainly there would be an important role for our site in Thunder Bay, Ontario."

A spokesman for Siemens, which could have been a major rival to Bombardier's bid, said the Canadian rule was one of the things the company considered when deciding against entering the process, although he noted it was not the most important consideration.

The Canadian requirement, as well as Bombardier's previous work in providing subway cars for the TTC, put the odds on the company being awarded the contract, analysts said.

The TTC said that it expects to make a final decision on the contract in November.

Shares of Bombardier closed down 20 Canadian cents, or 2.7 percent, at C$7.21 on the Toronto Stock Exchange amid a wider market downturn. ($1=$1.01 Canadian)


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## urbanfan89 (May 30, 2007)

Now if Bombardier could buy the GM Oshawa truck plant for a firesale price once it closes next year, the manufacturing sector here would have a future after all.


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## lightrail (May 24, 2007)

DENTROBATE54 said:


> Sorry, to be the bearer of bad news but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Edmonton LRT runs in "tube" type tunnels using the U2 and new SD160 LRT cars. The pantograph height automatically adjusts for the situation. So it can be done.

Edmonton "tube" tunnel deep under the University near University Station. Notice the overhead wire.









Edmonton LRT on the surface line - notice how high the overhead wire is and how the pantograph adjusts


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Toronto's C$1.25 bln streetcar plan goes off track *
17 July 2008

TORONTO (Reuters) - Toronto's transit authority said Thursday that it has canceled the proposals process to replace its aging fleet of streetcars after the bids it received from Bombardier Inc and Britain's TRAM Power Ltd were deemed to be non-compliant.

The Toronto Transit Commission said that Bombardier's bid failed a technical evaluation related to negotiating the tight turns on the city's existing streetcar system, while TRAM Power's bid was determined to be not commercially compliant.

The TTC can now contact any vendor, including those who responded to an initial request for expressions of interest, to discuss what issues any of the companies had with the requirements of the proposal process.

The contract for 204 new streetcars, worth C$1.25 billion ($1.24 billion), had looked likely to go to Montreal-based Bombardier after Germany's Siemens AG decided not to enter the bidding, despite showing earlier interest.

Using the specifications outlined in the original request for proposals, the TTC said it will contact known manufacturers to discuss issues that either led the companies to not enter the bidding, or to submit a bid that was not compliant.

The contract would have an option to purchase up to an additional 364 streetcars over the next 15 years, as part of a plan to expand the use of light rail and rapid transit across Toronto, Canada's biggest city.

The Globe and Mail newspaper has put the total value of the contract at more than C$3 billion.

The TTC said the latest process will take about four weeks to complete. ($1=$1.01 Canadian)


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

lightrail said:


>


Very cool -- _über_ metro-ish!


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## vancouverite/to'er (Apr 22, 2007)

How do they compare to Toronto's current subways in terms of speed?


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## juliandavidgomez (Jul 8, 2008)

Smartboy said:


> I'm sorry!!! But in my country only use public transit who don't have money to buy a car (here the cars are very expensive and most peolpe don't earn much money ). And i've heard in Canada verybody have e can bye a car.


Vey bad news, it means people in Brazil don't have civic principles, and are not acquainted with the word ecology.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

There must be a couple of low-floor tram manufacturers out there. There is no shortage of them on European city streets. Why didn't they bid (although I think Bombardier sold to a few of those places)?


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

hkskyline said:


> There must be a couple of low-floor tram manufacturers out there. There is no shortage of them on European city streets. Why didn't they bid (although I think Bombardier sold to a few of those places)?


25% Canadian content.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Eglinton LRT ready to launch*
Toronto Star
June 29, 2011










Along Eglinton Ave., they’ve been waiting nearly 20 years for someone to replace the subway that former Premier Mike Harris cancelled in 1995.

This summer, that wait will finally be rewarded when the TTC starts digging the first tunneling shaft for the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown Light Rail Transit (LRT) line.

The $8.2 billion provincially funded LRT will be wholly owned by Ontario and is slated for completion in 2020. Construction will begin around Black Creek Dr., where, next summer, the first of four enormous tunnel-boring machines will be launched from that pit.

The LRT will run about 20 kilometres underground to Kennedy station, where it will continue seamlessly above-ground for 6 kilometres on the route of what is now the Scarborough RT.

Most of the disruption from construction will be around stations and the shafts from which the tunneling machines will be launched and extracted.

Ontario Transportation Minister Kathleen Wynne will be discussing the project at a public meeting from 7 to 8:30 p.m. Thursday, at the York Civic Centre Council Chamber, 2700 Eglinton Ave. W.

The Toronto Star asked Jack Collins, Metrolinx vice-president for rapid transit implementation, about the project:

Given the Eglinton line will run mostly underground, how does LRT differ from subway?

Subway trains have six cars. LRTs will be run in three-car trains.

“A subway train is about 145 metres long and we are 97 metres long. Because of that you can get more people in a subway. Capacity is a difference, but we’re sizing the capacity to meet the needs of the Eglinton line and future growth, and we don’t feel a subway is necessary,” Collins said.

The original LRT plan called for only an 11-kilometre tunnel in the middle. With the switch, the trains are now expected to travel at subway speeds, averaging 34 km/h versus 22 km/h. The trip between Jane and Kennedy will take about 25 minutes, rather than 45.

How many people will ride it?

Metrolinx estimates 12,000 riders an hour during rush hours through the busiest sections, east of Yonge. Projections west of Yonge are about half that.

“The scale coming from the east is much heavier in the peak hours,” Collins said. That’s because many SRT riders will now choose to stay on the Eglinton line rather than switch to the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Won’t so many riders getting off at Yonge over-burden that subway line, which is already at capacity?

Between the TTC’s new subway trains, which carry up to 10 per cent more riders, and a new computerized signaling system that will allow Yonge trains to run closer together, Yonge will have about 30 per cent more capacity in coming years.

“We think that will handle the additional people,” he said. “The Bloor-Danforth line actually gets some relief. People getting on downstream in the morning perhaps will now get a seat.”

What’s the plan for stations?

There will be a maximum of 26, about 800 metres apart in the middle section, farther apart in less-travelled areas. Underground stations will cost about $100 million each. Public consultations on station designs will take place in fall. Among the first to be designed are Eglinton West; Caledonia, where there’s a potential connection to GO’s Barrie line; Keele; Dufferin; Bathurst; Oakwood and Chaplin. Work is beginning on the complex task of reconfiguring Kennedy.

What happens to SRT riders while the line is converted to LRT?

The current plan is to shut down the SRT after the 2015 Pan Am Games, with a design and contractor ready to go. Riders would be bused until the LRT is completed — as soon as possible, probably about three years.

Will the LRT be driverless?

“The trains will have fully functional cabs. (They) may have somebody sitting in there as a customer ambassador, similar to the GO trains. But the actual acceleration, deceleration and braking will be computer-controlled, which is called Automatic Train Operation.”


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Is it true that the Eglinton LRT will cost more to build than a subway as stated in the Globe and Mail? The former TTC head blasted this project as being more costly than subway for less capacity. :nuts:


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

isaidso said:


> Is it true that the Eglinton LRT will cost more to build than a subway as stated in the Globe and Mail? The former TTC head blasted this project as being more costly than subway for less capacity. :nuts:


$8.2 billion does seem excessively expensive. The estimated cost of the Spadina extension is $2.6 billion.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Eglinton LRT named Canada’s costliest construction project*
Published On Mon Jan 02 2012
Toronto Star

The Eglinton light rail transit line is the most expensive infrastructure project in Canada, according to a report released Monday by ReNew Canada, an infrastructure magazine.

When Rob Ford came into power more than a year ago, he banished plans to build new streetcar lines on Toronto streets, and insisted on burying 19 kilometres of the proposed Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown light-rail line, far more than originally planned. At a cost of $360 million per kilometre of underground rail, that turned the fourth-ranked project of 2011 to top spot at $8.2 billion.

“What’s interesting about the transit projects in the GTA is that they created this idea that trolleys and streetcars are outmoded and that subways are the better, more modern mode of transit,” said Mira Shenker, editor of the magazine that compiles an annual list of the 100 most expensive construction projects across the country.

“But if you look at the list across the country, it’s a lot of light rail and bus transit. Those are still current and still being done.”

That list includes $2.1 billion for a light rail project in Ottawa; $1.4 billion for a rapid bus transit system in York Region; a $1.4 rapid transit expansion in Vancouver and massive light rail projects in Calgary, Waterloo and Edmonton.

To make the list, infrastructure projects must be “going forward,” Shenker said. “We have to feel that this project is moving ahead — that there’s political will with enough backing that we feel the momentum is there and the funding will be there.”

The Eglinton line came in ahead of a controversial hydroelectric dam in northeastern British Columbia, a new project in the planning stages that will cost $7.9 billion.

The top 100 projects in Canada total $114 billion, up from $96 billion the previous year. The cost for the Eglinton line represents about one-third of the $25.4 billion spent on transit projects across the country. Shenker expects the project to remain near the top of the list until its expected completion in 2020.

And the project’s price tag could increase once Metrolinx and GO Transit, the line’s owners, figure out how to cross the Don Valley. Since Ford won’t allow new streetcars on existing roadways, the light rail cars must cross via their own bridge or tunnel. Both options will be costly and aren’t included in the $8.2 billion provincial funding. Transportation Minister Bob Chiarelli, however, said the entire project will come in on time and under budget.

Transit projects in the GTA are well represented on the list: the Spadina subway extension comes eighth, at $2.63 billion; the Georgetown rail project, which includes a new spur line to carry airport commuters from Union Station, comes in at 18th, at $1.5 billion; and the Union Station revitalization sits at 49th, at $640 million.


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

hkskyline said:


> *Metrolinx orders tunneling machines $54 million purchase will be used to dig underground section of Eglinton LRT*
> Published On Wed Jul 28
> Toronto Star
> 
> ...


This is something that I've wondered about. In Boston, the Blue Line trains switch from overhead power to third-rail power when they enter the subway tunnel along the southern portion of the line. It seems intuitive that having an overhead wire arrangement requires a larger tunnel diameter, which increases the amount of material to be excavated and amount of concrete to be pored, which increase costs. Given that this is a grade-separated extension of an existing grade-separated line, it seems nonsensical that they are planning to use light rail trains with overhead wire for power.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

greg_christine said:


> This is something that I've wondered about. In Boston, the Blue Line trains switch from overhead power to third-rail power when they enter the subway tunnel along the southern portion of the line. It seems intuitive that having an overhead wire arrangement requires a larger tunnel diameter, which increases the amount of material to be excavated and amount of concrete to be pored, which increase costs. Given that this is a grade-separated extension of an existing grade-separated line, it seems nonsensical that they are planning to use light rail trains with overhead wire for power.


Well, this whole project started off as a subway, then abandoned, and now is a streetcar line. The increased diameter is probably not a big enough problem to cause a major cost increase, but at least this line will be grade-separated from the rest of the traffic and hopefully the vehicles can move at reasonable speeds within the tunnels.

Don't think there's 3rd rail technology readily available for light rail yet either. Does any city run these types of vehicles?


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

hkskyline said:


> Well, this whole project started off as a subway, then abandoned, and now is a streetcar line. The increased diameter is probably not a big enough problem to cause a major cost increase, but at least this line will be grade-separated from the rest of the traffic and hopefully the vehicles can move at reasonable speeds within the tunnels.
> 
> Don't think there's 3rd rail technology readily available for light rail yet either. Does any city run these types of vehicles?


The Norristown Line in Philadelphia is considered light rail even though it uses third-rail power.









The streetcar lines in Washington, DC, used to obtain power from a conduit below street level through a slot in the pavement. In France, there are streetcars that obtain power from a third rail located at the middle of the track. The third-rail obtains power from a cable below street level. There is a control system that energizes only the portion of the rail directly below the streetcar as the streetcar passes. The point is that there are many systems available that avoid the clearances needed for pantographs and overhead wires.

The amount of material that must be excavated for a tunnel is proportional to the cross-sectional area of the tunnel, which is proportional to the square of the diameter. (6.0/5.4)^2 = 1.23 So, 23% more material must be excavated for a 6.0 m tunnel compared to a 5.4 m tunnel. The wall area of the tunnel is proportional to the diameter. Assuming that the wall thickness is also proportional to the diameter, the same 23% difference would apply to the amount of concrete that must be poured. On a project of this size, it wouldn't surprise me if the cost difference is several hundred million dollars.

It seems to me that they chose light rail during the early planning stages based on the paradigm that light rail is cheaper than heavy rail. Now, the project has evolved in a direction where light rail probably isn't the best choice.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

greg_christine said:


> It seems intuitive that having an overhead wire arrangement requires a larger tunnel diameter


Not if the pantograph were flexible enough :dunno: Besides, the height of the wire above Buenos Aires' oldest stock appears to be just a few inches above their rooves. Might Toronto use a charged rail underground instead of a wire (isn't that how the streetcars are powered within their subterranean interchanges with the Spadina subway, or even along the underground portion of the Harbourfront LRT)?


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

^^ There is certainly equipment available that would avoid the additional height clearance required for conventional pantographs. The Blue Line in Boston with both pantographs and third-rail contact shoes is a prime example. 


















The planners in Toronto don't seem to have considered using such equipment. They seem stuck on the idea of using standard light rail vehicles.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

You're last picture's telling enough  Surely the planning authorities have devised the ability at conversion over to heavy rail into their Eglinton line, no?


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## Innsertnamehere (Jun 8, 2010)

yep, its being built to be able to be converted later. dont know why they arent doing it in the first place though...


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

I know ... even if Toronto bothered posting bus route numbers onto their bus stops (poles), Eglinton itself seemed so swarmed by routes that they'd probably never have enough room on the signage to accommodate each of 'em


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## deasine (Sep 13, 2007)

Actually, Bombardier is also testing out various other cantenary-free technologies, including contactless e-mobility solution systems (inductive power-transfer). Though the shortfall of these solutions, even if it's stable and that the price is reasonable, is that it is currently proprietary and not standardized.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

How does being proprietary mean anything to Toronto? 
Toronto may go thru the public relations exercise of putting projects out to tender but everyone knows who will get the contract. 
Bombardier is Toronto's defacto rail provider. The TTC has never bought anything but Bombardier rail since the 1980s and any contract that gets any form of senior level financial support guarantees that to continue. 
Bombardier is a world leader in rail so it's not such a horrible thing and they would be built in Ontario which is another plus. That, however, makes the concern over proprietary technology a mute point in Toronto. As long as Bombardier builds it, it really doesn't matter what the technical specifications are. Some cities have proprietary technology but other like Toronto {and Montreal} have prorietary suppliers and in both cities it's Bombardier.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

That sorta Flash Gordon testing ought to be tried out on small communities (e.g., Saskatoon, maybe Hamilton) if first anywhere ...


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Proprietary technology is OK as long as it's tested. The last thing the city wants is to try out uncharted methods that blow up and cause massive overruns and delays, and there's nowhere else to look to for help since the technology has not been implemented elsewhere. Who wants to be a guinea pig after all?


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

ssiguy2 said:


> Bombardier is a world leader in rail


Yeah, much like Ford Motors' own leadership due to their perceived grade of quality ... really, I wish Canadians weren't *so* desperate at the way we go about bragging :sleepy: it *altogether* embarasses me ... maybe Bombardier's rail division ought to have stuck to manufacturing rubber-tyred fleets, coz that sort of product of theirs seems to seldom falter :runaway:


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Eglinton LRT first up at new TTC board

Toronto Star reports the pros and cons of burying the Eglinton LRT will be released by the new TTC board.


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## historyworks (Jul 12, 2007)

ssiguy2 said:


> How does being proprietary mean anything to Toronto?
> Toronto may go thru the public relations exercise of putting projects out to tender but everyone knows who will get the contract.
> Bombardier is Toronto's defacto rail provider.


Is that ethical, sounds terribly unhealthy even corrupt?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Complimentary by Georgie_grrl, on Flickr


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## Innsertnamehere (Jun 8, 2010)

A picture of the first new streetcar arriving in the city:









http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/3263-New-TTC-Streetcars/page105


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

historyworks said:


> Is that ethical, sounds terribly unhealthy even corrupt?


Corruption in the awarding of infrastructure projects in Canada?........never accured to me. 

Yes, it is unhealthy and very corrupt. Bombardier has been the beneficiary of a lot of government money over the years primarily due to being a Montreal based company and Quebec has always been the spoiled child of confederation. That is how Bombardier has developed. Bombardier has huge manufacturing plants in both Ontario and Quebec which is why they get the government contracts as it produces local jobs. 

When Toronto put it's streetcar orders out to tender it was a joke and everyone knew it, Bombardier will get the contract even if other competitors had the same product at half the price. 

As far as Bombardier goes, it is not 'bragging" but at the same time Bombardier is the largest manufacturer of rail vehicles on the planet so it's not like the government is giving contracts to a company with inferior products. Bombardier is one of the "Big 3" when it comes to LRT with the other 2 being Siemens and Alstrom. 

Calgary and Edmonton LRT use Siemens as Alberta has no manufacturing base so no matter who they choose they would never be built there anyway.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Well, I don't think other competitors were offering an inferior or unsafe product at a major discount to Bombardier.

I also doubt other cities were paying the same "inflated" price for Bombardier vehicles as Toronto.


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## saiho (Jun 28, 2009)

ssiguy2 said:


> When Toronto put it's streetcar orders out to tender it was a joke and everyone knew it, Bombardier will get the contract even if other competitors had the same product at half the price.


IDK about half the price but, its true the TTC always gives its contracts to bombardier that's why we got those horrible-screechy-out-of-tune-door-chime-cheap-easy-to-dirty-but-not-easy-to-clean-aluminium-T1 series trains. Though they cleaned up their act with the TRs. 



ssiguy2 said:


> As far as Bombardier goes, it is not 'bragging" but at the same time Bombardier is the largest manufacturer of rail vehicles on the planet so it's not like the government is giving contracts to a company with inferior products. Bombardier is one of the "Big 3" when it comes to LRT with the other 2 being Siemens and Alstrom.
> 
> Calgary and Edmonton LRT use Siemens as Alberta has no manufacturing base so no matter who they choose they would never be built there anyway.


Well its because Siemens's LRT trains perfectly meet North American LRT crash safety and cost requirements. That's why almost every post-70's LRT network in North America uses Siemen's LRTs. These new LRT systems are highly dissimilar to Toronto's legacy system.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Montreal's MTA went public last month about their intention of consulting with Bombadear about about their exploration of design improvements into and selections of purchasing their next round of either one of the manufacturer's commuter rail cars, series 2000 and 3000 ... nothing about consulting the overall rail-car manufacturing sector, thus their crookedness must be in the bag :sly:


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

This is why proprietary technology is a mute point in Toronto. 

As long as the maker is Bombardier the technology is irrelevant. This is why Toronto should extend it's SkyTrain down Eglinton. Some say it's proprietary and they don't want that but it's not relevant. Same goes for monorail. Monorail systems may be different but Bombardier builds, according to monorails.org , state of the art monorail systems like the huge system currently being built in Sao Paulo. 

It's interesting that Toronto doesn't consider monorail as again they say it is proprietary but the monorails for Sao Paulo are being built in Kingston Ontario and the provincial government gave Bombardier money to recently open a new monorail test track in Kingston to show case the technology.


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## saiho (Jun 28, 2009)

ssiguy2 said:


> This is why proprietary technology is a mute point in Toronto.


given your points after that... maybe.



ssiguy2 said:


> As long as the maker is Bombardier the technology is irrelevant. This is why Toronto should extend it's SkyTrain down Eglinton. Some say it's proprietary and they don't want that but it's not relevant.


And how are we going to get new trains for it? MARK III/II trains are too long to go around its underground curve. We have to custom order new trains from Bombardier or rebuild the curves so... 

proprietary + Bombardier Tax + Custom Order = ($$$)x3

so tech is very relevant. IMHO the crosstown LRT is fine.



ssiguy2 said:


> Same goes for monorail. Monorail systems may be different but Bombardier builds, according to monorails.org , state of the art monorail systems like the huge system currently being built in Sao Paulo.


The line 2 monorail is a flawed design. There is a forced transfer from the conventional metro line 2 to the line 2 monorail. Kinda sounds like the ummmm SRT with the BD line in Toronto and look how well that turned out to be. :hammer: though line 17 is a bit of a different story.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Whether they extended the Metro or not, that has nothing to do with the worthiness of the technology. Elevated Monorail is, by far, the cheapest, least disruptive, enviornment friendly, pedestrian friendly of any elevated technology with the smallest footprint and smallest shawdow. Unless the elevated Metro uses rubber tire vehicles, it is also the smoothest and quietest. 

This is why many congested developing cities are going to monorail. Their congested cities tend to have more congested roads, much higher density levels, and older ones or ones with challenging topography. This is where monorails shine as they are quiet, easier and less disruuptive to build, have far superior turning and grade abilities, and cast the smallest amount of shawdow all of which are eseential if going beside or over high density areas. 

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack this thread so let's get back to Toronto streetcars.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Sydney folk crushed the proposal there for an extensive monorail network, thinking the system too unsightly.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

I can understand that. 

I would never have agreed to a Sydney monorail. I don't like elevated trains thru inner city areas and all grade separated systems that run thru inner cities should be either tunneled or use current rail corridors. Sydneysiders also had a pretty bad impression of the monorail as it was a useless circular tourist route and nothing more.


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

**Bump**

Toronto Transit Commission 4401 (2013 Bombardier Flexity Outlook) is seen at Hillcrest Complex Harvey Shops, not in service.


Toronto Transit Commission 4401 by YT | transport photography, on Flickr


Toronto Transit Commission 4401 - interior by YT | transport photography, on Flickr


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Multi-segment tram with trolley pole... Really mind blowing.
In contrast, Riga decided to switch from pole to pantographs together with introduction of articulated trams.


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## Innsertnamehere (Jun 8, 2010)

They have both Trolley polls and Pantographs, as they are still in the process of setting up pantograph-compatible wiring in the network. You can see the pantograph in the photo as well.


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## JustinB (Aug 12, 2008)

XAN_ said:


> Multi-segment tram with trolley pole... Really mind blowing.
> In contrast, Riga decided to switch from pole to pantographs together with introduction of articulated trams.


If you look at the pics closely, you'll see a pantograph.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

I see, but Riga opted for conversion before starting regural service, so it got articulated trams with pant. only. Toronto trams on contrst have both, which to my knowledge is unique for articulated trams.


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## Innsertnamehere (Jun 8, 2010)

probably, yes. Toronto's legacy streetcar network remains largely unchanged from the 1920's.


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## JustinB (Aug 12, 2008)

The first two routes the streetcars will run on (509/10 and 511) are pantograph ready.


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## saiho (Jun 28, 2009)

JustinB said:


> The first two routes the streetcars will run on (509/10 and 511) are pantograph ready.


Are they? I believe to many frogs at the intersections have yet to make the switch.


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Those are some flashy streetcars you got there.


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## andrrew0256 (Nov 17, 2011)

Come on chaps, some of us are thousands of miles away across the pond and would appreciate a bit more information and pictures. Is this the only thread on here discussing your new kit?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)




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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*CLRV's, ALRV's, & Worms On A Friday Night In Toronto*


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## jay stew (Nov 5, 2009)

When I was in Toronto, I made the mistake of riding the streetcar during the morning commute. I was literally sardined! :nuts:


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## nanar (Apr 12, 2005)

Very interesting information. ^^


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## jay stew (Nov 5, 2009)

nanar said:


> Very interesting information. ^^


I don't know if that was sarcasm or not, I just wanted to post my experience on the streetcars.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)




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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Photos taken by Lee Carlson


Heading to Long Branch by Lee Carlson, on Flickr


4408 on Spadina by Lee Carlson, on Flickr


Flexity on Bathurst by Lee Carlson, on Flickr


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## ainvan (Nov 15, 2006)

*TTC plans to launch new streetcar route this June*



> Get ready to meet the 514 streetcar route. A report to be voted on by the TTC board next week recommends the introduction of new a streetcar line that would operate between Cherry St. and Dufferin St. This new route would provide transit accessibility for the Canary District, but also relief for the busiest stretch of the 504 King route.
> 
> There's been talk of streetcars on Cherry St. for a while, but it's close to reality now. Should the board approve the recommendation, service would get underway on June 19. The new route would be the third to employ the TTC's new low-floor streetcars, which have greater capacity than the vehicles currently servicing King St. right now.












BlogTO


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## ainvan (Nov 15, 2006)

Some streetcar pics


Old n' New by kotsy, on Flickr


Spadina Streetcar by Lori Whelan, on Flickr


New Streetcar 4403 Passing through Chinatown by wyliepoon, on Flickr


Queen & Spadina by kotsy, on Flickr


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*4th quarter daily public Transit Ridership for Toronto Streetcars*

Toronto / Toronto Transit Commission - 308,900 (2015) : 2.84%


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## Innsertnamehere (Jun 8, 2010)

Streetcar ridership has skyrocketed in the last few years.. I wonder how high it will go.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Probably another 100-200k with the crosstown line opening up in a few years..


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## Innsertnamehere (Jun 8, 2010)

Hmm, I guess that will go in with the streetcar ridership for APTA. I wonder if they'll open another category for it.. Its much more of a rapid transit service than existing streetcars.


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## ainvan (Nov 15, 2006)

*Old & New*


TTC Witt Streetcar 2766 on display at Leslie Barns by Sean_Marshall, on Flickr


TTC Streetcar 4500 at Fleet Loop by Sean_Marshall, on Flickr


Toronto Transit Commission 4500 by Adrian Badaraco, on Flickr


Interior, PCC 4500 by Sean_Marshall, on Flickr


Where Old Meets New by James D, on Flickr


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Distillery streetcar loop, southern terminus of route 514 Cherry. Ready to open on June 19:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_Street_streetcar_line


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/n-america/single-view/view/tram-depot-opens-in-toronto.html
> 
> *Tram depot opens in Toronto*
> 03 Jun 2016
> ...


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Map of new 514 Cherry streetcar route, which will open next Sunday:
http://www.ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/Service_changes/new-ttc-service_june19.jsp


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)




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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

514 Cherry route is launched. This one is at the Dufferin Loop, route's western terminus:
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/06/18/ttc-launches-new-514-cherry-st-streetcar-route.html


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## ainvan (Nov 15, 2006)

Flexity by Nicoli OZ Mathews, on Flickr


Drive By by kotsy, on Flickr


Bisha by Marcanadian, on Flickr


In Motion by Paul Flynn, on Flickr


The Drive-By by Paul Flynn, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Queens Quay West by wyliepoon, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

King Street Car by Roozbeh Rokni, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*King St. business owners lash out at TTC streetcar pilot project*
‘We’re . . . shocked as we look down King St. and see no traffic except streetcars. There’s just an unease.’
Dec 24, 2017
Toronto Star _Excerpt_

Streetcar travel times on King St. have improved and drivers are facing minimal, if any delays on nearby streets, but the streetcar pilot project remains divisive going into 2018.

While the pilot project is hailed for achieving its goal of providing a faster and more reliable transit route with city councillor Joe Cressy writing there is “no going back”, not all are satisfied.

The Star spoke to four stakeholders in the restaurant industry and one residential advocate Saturday. Here’s what they said:

Todd Sherman, president of the Urban Dining Group

“We have seen a dramatic change in the character of King St.,” said Sherman, who runs four restaurants within the boundaries of the pilot project. “The pedestrian traffic has dropped considerably, the access to King St. has become very difficult — which in fact has cannibalized a good percentage of our business.”

Bruce Holmberg, sous chef at Il Fornello

“No, everything’s the same,” Holmberg said when asked if the restaurant had been impacted by the pilot. “We cater to the theatres, so everyone who goes to the theatres comes here . . . We’re pretty much booked every night.”

He said he has noticed that other restaurants have been affected: “I guess a lot of them are smaller. We’re 250 seats, so there’s never been parking on King St. for 250 cars. So I guess a lot of the smaller restaurants would have people that would drive up, park and go in, that would be my reasoning for it.”

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-lash-out-at-ttc-streetcar-pilot-project.html


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

King Street Streetcar Pilot Project by wyliepoon, on Flickr


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## saiho (Jun 28, 2009)

Here we go again. While Bombardier is still messing around with delivering new streetcars.



> *Nearly one-third of old streetcars were unable to leave yard due to frigid weather: TTC*
> 
> ...The Toronto Transit Commission, which handles local service, said nearly one-third of its old streetcars broke down and were unable to leave the yard. It was among the worst mass failures in recent years, and buses had to fill the gaps. And the operator of the regional GO Transit service said a suburban commuter line faced extensive delays after a crack was found in a rail track designed to withstand a 60-degree temperature swing...
> 
> ...


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Frigid in Hogtown (II) by Bryan Bonnici, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Spending on King St. up since streetcar pilot began*
Economic activity on King increased 21 per cent between October and December, a trend in line with seasonal spending patterns in previous years.
Feb 16, 2018
Toronto Star _Excerpt_

Spending at King St. businesses has increased since the start of a contentious pilot project to improve streetcar service downtown, according to new city data.

The one-year pilot, which restricts car traffic on King between Bathurst and Jarvis Sts. in order to prioritize streetcar travel, began in November.

Figures released Friday indicate that spending in the project area rose by 21 per cent between October and December 2017, a trend in line with seasonal spending patterns in previous years.

The latest figures also show significant improvements in transit service and minimal negative effects on car traffic, which Councillor Joe Cressy (Ward 20 Trinity-Spadina) said was indication the project is a “win-win.”

“Every month I have seen the transit experience improve,” said Cressy, whose ward covers part of the pilot area. “This is turning into a real success story.”

This is the first time the city has published data about the pilot’s economic impact. The spending numbers, which were compiled using point-of-sale data from credit and debit processor Moneris Solutions, don’t support claims made by local business owners who have blamed the pilot for what they describe as deep financial losses.

Some have called for the project’s traffic restrictions to be lifted outside of rush hours, or for it to be cancelled outright.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*TTC's 505 Dundas and 506 Carlton routes will run with buses this year*
February 16, 2018
TTC Press Release _Excerpt_

Starting this Sunday, Feb. 18 and throughout 2018, the TTC's 505 Dundas and 506 Carlton routes will be served by buses instead of streetcars. Also starting Feb. 18, streetcars will return to the 511 Bathurst and 503 Kingston Rd routes.

These changes are necessary to provide uninterrupted service because of a reduction in the number of streetcars available for service, as well as during numerous road construction projects along the 505 and 506 routes this year, including:


TTC track construction on Broadview Ave. starting in May
TTC track construction at the intersections of Broadview Ave. and both Gerrard St. E. and Dundas St. E. in summer 2018
TTC track construction at Dundas St. W. and Lansdowne Ave. in September
City water main and streetscape work between Bathurst St. and Huron St. in September
TTC construction at Gerrard St. E. and Parliament St. in May
Main Street Station construction through the summer of 2018.
The TTC will monitor both routes throughout the year and re-assess service based on fleet availability and construction work.

In order to maintain passenger capacity during the busy morning and afternoon rush hours, between 27 and 30 buses will replace the 18-19 streetcars on 505 Dundas and 42-45 buses will replace the 30-32 streetcars usually servicing the 506 Carlton. To speed up service, the buses on these routes will operate using Proof of Payment and all-door boarding.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Cherry via King by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Detail of a TTC streetcar in a snow storm - Toronto by Phil Marion, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*About 25 cars have driven down Queens Quay tunnel tracks since 2014, TTC says*
509 Harbourfront and 510 Spadina streetcars were diverted early Sunday morning in latest incident
CBC News _Excerpt_
Mar 11, 2018

Yet another car drove down the tracks of the Queens Quay streetcar tunnel early Sunday morning, which the TTC says was about the 25th incident it has seen since 2014.

TTC spokesperson Jessica Kosmack told CBC Toronto that the number of incidents has been going down and that investigators have carried out a probe each time a similar incident occurs to determine how it happened. 

In the most recent incident, Toronto Fire Services said they were called to the scene around midnight where they found one man in the car. The man did not require medical assistance, a spokesperson for Toronto fire said.

Toronto police traffic services said Sunday night the incident is still under investigation, and that no charges have been laid. 

Video from the incident shows the car had Quebec licence plates.

Resident Katie Gear was shocked to learn that another car drove into the tunnel on Sunday and said there might be more that could be done to help. 

"People who are visiting, they must not know what to do," she said. "There are really busy times where they should have a policeman directing traffic, that would help."

The TTC said it has already taken a number of measures to prevent drivers from entering the tunnel, including posting additional large signs, lowering the pole lights on both sides of the entrance and installing a flashing light on a black-and-yellow striped rectangular pole sign in the centre of the entrance.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Night Rider by Jason Cook, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

TGP3M1 - Weekly Photos: "Curves" by Aidan Samuels, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

King Street Transit Pilot Project by wyliepoon, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*TTC vice-chair wants review of Queens Quay*
Transit agency already planning to add a gate to prevent drivers from entering streetcar tunnel, but Alan Heisey believes whole street needs a rethink.
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Mar 23, 2018

The vice chair of the TTC is calling for a full review of the design of Queens Quay, after criticizing the recently reconfigured lakefront street as confusing to road users, including himself.

The transit agency announced a week ago it would erect a gate at the streetcar tunnel at Queens Quay and Bay St. after yet another driver entered it illegally and became stuck.

The TTC says that since 2014 roughly 25 drivers have entered the tunnel, and the problem persists despite measures aimed to prevent it.

But at a meeting of the agency’s board on Tuesday, TTC Vice Chair Alan Heisey said the tunnel isn’t the only part of Queens Quay that’s causing trouble. Drivers also regularly encroach on the streetcar right-of-way elsewhere on the street, he said. The right-of-way is supposed to be reserved for transit vehicles.

Heisey even admitted to making the mistake himself.

More : https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/03/23/ttc-vice-chair-wants-review-of-queens-quay.html


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Ryerson transit expert challenges the TTC’s findings on the King St. pilot project*
Review concludes transit improvements have been “modest at best.”
Toronto Star _Excerpt_
Mar 26, 2018

Business owners have launched another salvo of criticism at the King St. streetcar priority project, this time backed by a transit expert who says the pilot isn’t working as well as advertised.

A review authored by Ryerson University professor Murtaza Haider and released Monday by the Ontario Restaurant Hotel & Motel Association (ORHMA) contends the project’s effect on streetcar travel times has been minimal, and the ridership increase observed on the route may have been achievable without reconfiguring King.

“I believe leadership needs to look at it and make decisions accordingly,” ORHMA president Tony Elenis said of Haider’s analysis.

“(The pilot’s) not working, and that’s coming from an expert.”

In a statement, the TTC stood by its assessment that the pilot appears to be achieving its goals.

“We have both the numbers — improved travel times and reliability, and increased ridership — and the anecdotal feedback from our customers to call the pilot a success to this point,” the transit agency said.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*TTC replacing streetcars’ touch-screen fare machines with ones that don’t accept credit or debit*
In a statement to the Star, spokesperson Heather Brown said the new machines are “quick, easy-to-use and reliable.”
May 3, 2018
Toronto Star _Excerpt_

The TTC is rolling out new fare machines for the city’s newest streetcars that only accept loose change, tokens or Presto cards.

The TTC started to install them last month as replacements to the fleet’s touch-screen fare machines, which had received mixed reviews from riders.

The replacements appear to be simpler, lower-tech and use buttons — but do not accept debit or credit.

“Passengers travelling by streetcar should carry a PRESTO card, a token, or exact change for fare payment in the event they board a streetcar with reduced payment functionality,” a notice on the TTC website reads.


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

hkskyline said:


> King Street Transit Pilot Project by wyliepoon, on Flickr


Toronto Streetcars look rather dirty!


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## Rapidtransitman (Aug 4, 2010)

@FabriFlorence

That's due to Toronto streetcars still using a trolley pole. It's been a wet spring, so there is a lot of dirty water that's dripped from the wire and pole. The streetcar network will slowly transition to pantograph, line by line, over the next few years.


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

Great network! After Melbourne and Vienna, Toronto has probably the best tram system of the world.


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## urbanflight (Dec 12, 2018)

FabriFlorence said:


> Great network! After Melbourne and Vienna, Toronto has probably the best tram system of the world.


:shifty:


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## Polak_w_Kanadzie (May 12, 2016)




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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

I don't think it's even in the top 10 most extensive (there are a lot of large systems in Europe) but of course it depends on what one includes as considerations for "best" since size may be only one variable.


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## Polak_w_Kanadzie (May 12, 2016)

It's very bad system. First and worst thing is very slow, unreliable.


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

Canadians don’t know what to do with a compliment.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

High Park loop by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Toronto Transit Commission 4580 by Youngjin Ko, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

1734-32 by Boris T, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

College car by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Olympus OMD EM1. Queen Street Shadows by Peter LeDoux, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Toronto Transit Commission 4001 by Adrian Badaraco, on Flickr

Not done yet by Adrian Badaraco, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

1W2A0060 by Clement Lo, on Flickr


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## citysquared (Jun 10, 2019)

I really like the new sleek, long and articulated streetcars, but they seem to be causing traffic congestion because it's so much harder to pass them given length. For me most times of the year when I bike it isn't a problem, but those who rely on cars year long it's getting frustrating. 

Somewhat related, I wish they would turn Queen West from University to Spadina into a pedestrian and streetcar transit mall. Those parked cars aren't generating hardly any business, it's mostly foot traffic. 

See Angers France:










https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2015/04/04/queen-st-transit-mall-why-wait-for-lrt/


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

#4571 turning into Kipling Loop by Edward Brain, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Old Guard by Frank Lemire, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Nikon D700. Too quiet for a weekday! by Peter LeDoux, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Line of streetcars on Queen, some diverted from King by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Self-Guided Walk: Riverside STOP 3: The Broadview Hotel by Renée Suen 孫詩敏, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Turning on to Fort Rouille Street by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

P6181908 by B Toronto, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Sunday Morning Traffic on Queen St by Bill Smith, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

TTC 4535 by Articulated Photos, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

506 Carlton by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Streetcar track construction on The Queensway at Sunnyside by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Crossing Dundas Street East at Yonge by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

4600-ttc-2021-08-05-mt by Michael Taylor, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

DSCN7215 by Transit Insider, on Flickr

DSCN7198 by Transit Insider, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Untitled by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)




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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

D2FR6527 by B.Toronto, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Toronto gets first look at what it will be like to ride Eglinton Crosstown LRT*


> Torontonians are getting their first glimpse of what it will be like to ride on the long-awaited Eglinton Crosstown LRT.
> 
> Construction on the 19 kilometre project began a decade ago, in 2011. This month teams are testing trains with the hope the line will be ready for passenger travel in the later part of 2022.
> 
> CTV News Toronto took part in a tour Tuesday around the Science Centre Station at Don Mills Road and on a train eastward to Birchmount Station.











Toronto gets first look at what it will be like to ride Eglinton Crosstown LRT


Torontonians are getting their first glimpse of what it will be like to ride on the long-awaited Eglinton Crosstown LRT.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

XXIMG_1667 by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Streetcar on College by Jack Landau, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

PB035734 by B.Toronto, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

King Street East by Marcanadian, on Flickr


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## GojiMet86 (Jan 3, 2016)

A Toronto Transit Commission CLRV appears in Disney's new Turning Red:


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Queen West businesses plead with the city to delay track repairs until after holiday season* 
CityNews _Excerpt_
Nov 17, 2021

The City of Toronto has shortened its schedule for repairing streetcar tracks on Queen West following a plea from local businesses, but owners say it’s not enough to save their holiday earnings.

Crews are set to replace TTC streetcar tracks between Spadina Avenue and Niagara Street starting Thursday. A road closure along Queen Street had been planned to last three weeks.

More : CityNews


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)




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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Dundas Street East by Marcanadian, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Not in service by Adrian Badaraco, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

IMG_2534 by Tom Dressel, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Toronto streetcar by Maurice P., on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

IMGP7708 -2strcrp1stpffwlcon by citatus, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

* Eglinton LRT delay creates 'dangerous' traffic volumes, speeding, residents complain *
CBC _Excerpt_
Oct 4, 2022

Residents on a street north of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT project are expressing concern about "dangerous" traffic problems plaguing the area — now that the opening of the line is delayed again and construction is continuing.

They say drivers use Broadway Avenue, which runs east to west north of Eglinton, to get around obstacles caused by the construction. That has seen traffic volumes double or triple during rush hour, said long-time resident Mike Crowley.

"It's a safety issue, and it's a lack of respect of vehicles for pedestrians there," he said.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/lrt-delay-traffic-headaches-1.6604557


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*TTC to make changes to 506 Carlton route to get around construction projects *
CBC _Excerpt_
Oct 12, 2022

The Toronto Transit Commission says it is making changes to its 506 Carlton route to get around construction projects on Carlton and College streets.

Starting on Thursday, TTC service will completely bypass Carlton and College between Ossington Avenue and Parliament Street for the rest of the year.

Spokesperson Stuart Green said on Wednesday the TTC has developed a new diversion plan and it's about improving customer service. The changes involve adding a 506C replacement bus and changing the route of the 506 streetcar,

"We've been on diversion for a little while now to get around some construction along College and Carlton. And the diversion plan that we had in place hasn't been working to a level that our customers deserve, frankly. We've heard a number of complaints," Green said.

"This eliminates a lot of turning and it really addresses some of those concerns we were hearing about from our customers about longer than acceptable travel times."

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ttc-streetcar-changes-college-carlton-bypass-1.6614812


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Not In Service by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

TTC Hillcrest Complex III by Jack Landau, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Note this historic Toronto streetcar is now in San Francisco :

San Francisco F Market Line - 1074, Ex. TTC Historic Streetcar, Offside by Fred Maple🍁, on Flickr


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

It's a pity that Toronto doesn't have a special line served by vintage streetcars, like San Francisco and Melbourne. Tourists would love it very much!


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## citysquared (Jun 10, 2019)

I agree wholeheartedly. They need to have at least a few old red rockets riding the rails during the summer tourist season. They are amazing!


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## _Night City Dream_ (Jan 3, 2008)

hkskyline said:


> Not In Service by A Great Capture, on Flickr


Very nice shot! I love the way the tram is turning around University. Always loved that urban density.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

501 Queen by Jack Landau, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

TTC streetcar with vista by Francesco Lo Presti, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

End of the Line by Frank Lemire, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

DSC_1225 by James R, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

The crowds seem bigger than before by A Great Capture, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Road work on Adelaide by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Toronto councillors demand answers from 'secretive' Metrolinx on Eglinton Crosstown delay *
CBC _Excerpt_
Nov 24, 2022

As the opening of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT blows past yet another deadline, two Toronto city councillors who say they're fed up with the lack of transparency are planning to ask council to formally request answers as to why the project stalled for a third time this fall.

The 25-stop, 19-kilometre light rapid transit line that will eventually connect the city along Eglinton from Kennedy to Mount Dennis was last slated to be up and running this fall. Work began in 2011 and Metrolinx previously announced completion dates of 2020 and 2021. The overall cost is estimated at about $5.8 billion.

Neither Metrolinx nor the Ontario government would answer CBC Toronto's questions about the delay and timeline and the two councillors say they've also been stonewalled.

More : https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/secretive-eglinton-crosstown-delay-1.6660657


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## andrrew0256 (Nov 17, 2011)

hkskyline said:


> Note this historic Toronto streetcar is now in San Francisco :
> 
> San Francisco F Market Line - 1074, Ex. TTC Historic Streetcar, Offside by Fred Maple🍁, on Flickr


A nice thought but this car never saw service in Toronto. 1074 - Toronto, Canada - Market Street Railway (streetcar.org)


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