# The SELECT thread...



## MANUTD

RedWayne28thfloor said:


> What is a variation addendum as a matter of interest?


OMG checkout THE POINT THREAD -- its will educate you !!


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## CAJ

Bling08 said:


> Brace yourselves. Just received Handover Documents.
> 
> We are on Lengthy Payment Plan, so we just continue with Payments, but before handover they want us to sign Variation Addendum and pay the following amounts:
> 
> First Provisional Service Charge Dhs 15.2/sq - Total of 13,580.24
> Capital Reserve Fund Charge @Dhs 1/sq - Total of 893.44
> Provisional Chilled Water Charge - Dhs 5/Sq - Total of 4,467.18
> Affection Plan Charges - Not sure what this is - 390.00 Dhs
> 
> They are credited us with (3,380.63) as they call it "Total Goodwill Amount" - Assuming this is for Late penalty payments - Seems very low.
> 
> So we need to pay a total of 15,950.23 and send a signed copy of Variation Addendum before they will allow Handover.
> 
> They stated Handovers will commence 1st May 2011.
> 
> There are lots of other info and I've only just received it, but thought I would outline the key concerns. Do let me know if you want further info.
> 
> Can't remember what the Point's Service Charge was to compare. Would be interested to hear all your thoughts on the above.
> 
> Whilst I am pleased there is light at the end of the tunnel, I still think we have a long way to go - Hope I am wrong. Its been a long haul!!!
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Bling08


Does the addendum only relate to the payments you refer to?


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## Anjam

One relates to the change in apartment numbers and another is for LPP owners who do not yet own the property outright. Will post details tonight.


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## CAJ

Anjam said:


> One relates to the change in apartment numbers and another is for LPP owners who do not yet own the property outright. Will post details tonight.


Would appreciate that. Many thanks


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## SGrCRAP

*Select Group - More deadly than Fukushima!*

Torch Folk, 

I'm a Point owner so I thought I'd share some of our experiences with you guys as I can see history repeating itself.

Select Group quite simply cannot be trusted! They ramped the Point service charges at every possible opportunity and provided a totally shocking level of service. 

Essentially developers are now looking to make their money from facilities management rather than new build development. Every tower which completes is full of owners who developers and FM companies view as cash cows which they can extort cash from.

Developers will attempt to bamboozle owners with a whole load of rules and regs but one thing is constant.... the MARK UP. Everything we pay for in the Point has been marked up by 250-300%. Some 'specialised' line items are marked up by over 1000%. We worked out we could fly British tradesmen over and put them up in the Royal Mirage and pay them 500 quid a day for less! 

Be very careful about your post handover common area snagging defects - Select will probably stitch you up here - apparently Select Group retained several million dirhams from DCE on the Point build. DCE then refused to fix the common area snagging issues at the Point and downed tools. Select Group then went into complete denial there was anything wrong with the common areas and told the Point IOA all the problems in the building occurred after the building was handed over! Yes..... they really did!

So Select short changed DCE and left all the problems and incomplete issues for the owners to pay for. Most people call this robbery!

Beware of Trojan Horses.....

Select Group will start to make noises about getting the Torch owners association up and running soon. They will say that under RERA rules and regs they cannot provide FM services after the owners association is formed. They will then recommend OA management service providers who "on the surface" specialise in formalizing the OA formation of your building and making it JOP compliant. 

A lot of Point owners strongly suspect Select Group are in cahoots with several of these OA service providers. We've seen internal emails between Select and these companies which confirms there is an extremely close relationship.

Best Advice - 


Get you Owners Association Registered as quickly as possible
Get your building indpendently surveyed - you need to do this to get your OA formalized.
Don't use an OA formation service provider - they will rip you off even more
Once you've got your OA formed appoint your own bulding manager who ideally would be a resident owner
Then write direct contracts between your legal entity (Torch Development Ltd probably) and service providers. Kick out any FM umbrella service provider - go direct

If you do this you should be able to get your service charges to under 10 AED/sqft. 

50% of everything you pay is being skimmed by all the middle men. 

Hope this provides some insight for you


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## Dubai_Steve

^^ Thanks for your comments. I guess there is no choice but to pay the 1st years maintenance charges however in order to get handover?

This seems to be AED 21.2 per sq ft! (15.2 maint. + 1 reserve fund + 5 chiller charge). 

Presumably the good will gesture payments will be skimmed back off this.

During this 1st year we can then work on getting rid of Select?


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## steve short

to get rid of sg and start your own oa we will require a full list of owners i doubt if sg will supply this could we get one from the land registry people??


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## foxy

Thanks for the advice. You won't be surprised that few trust Select. I have always felt that Select have been extremely cynical in dealing with us. They basically get away with what they can. And I don't feel RERA has helped us enough if at all. 
So what I propose as owners is that we are active in dealing with Select, because if we are passive they will walk all over us. 
An independent audit of the building is the least we can do. 

Ps. Is it true that Select hasn't handed over a list of Point owners to the OA?


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## Rider

Is it normal practice in Dubai for developers to award themselves the Building Management contract for the first 12 months?

I guess we need to find an owner who plans to live in the building and is willing to take the lead in forming an OA before following the other steps as outlined by SGrCrap - thanks for taking the time to post that by the way.


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## Rider

What are these 'exclusive 3 bedroom penthouses now released on the 84th floor'

Is there a change in design or have Select kept these up their sleeve?


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## flashinglights

Either the scaffolding is coming down, or they have now built the spire above the top of the scaffolding.

Not long to go.


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## Anjam

Rider said:


> What are these 'exclusive 3 bedroom penthouses now released on the 84th floor'
> 
> Is there a change in design or have Select kept these up their sleeve?


^^Apparently Select kept a number of apartments to sell on completion. It may have been around 10% of them from memory.


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## scoobudubai

Please refer to clause 10.1..YOU MUST accept handover within 30 days max....etc
Is this valid? If one accepts handover, is it available -immediately- to occupy?


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## Anjam

..


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## scoobudubai

mlane said:


> well i wouldnt buy an apartment in dubai without a balcony to be honest
> 
> there is nothing better than coming back after a long day,putting on your shorts,grabbing a cold beer and chilling on your balcony watching the world go by
> 
> buying a square box with out any access outside aint a good move
> 
> no tenants would go for apartments like these,well they would for a small price


hmm...


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## ramzy

Isn't there a Dubia law which states that an owners association must be setup and registered with Rera upon completion by the developer? If so can't the full list of owners be acquired from rera?


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## SGrCRAP

Hi Folks, 

Thought I'd fill you guys in a bit on what's been going on. 

Fristly and most importantly there will be an email going out to all owners in the next day or so which asks you to complete a proxy form for the AGM if you can't attend. We could really do with as many proxy votes as possible as Select can exercise 61 votes at the AGM due to their illegal contract ammendment for LPP owners. (As you know they took away LPP owners voting rights by blackmailing them prior to handover)

So keep you eyes on your email for the proxy forms - the email will contain names of owners going to the AGM which you can use to carry your vote. 

The reasons the service charges have gone up are:-


Chiller Fees
Lack of essential maintenance
Hyper marked up services

The IOA has been battling to try and get these areas under control. 

*Chiller Fees *

With regard to the Chilled water provision the building AC was exceptionally poorly managed by Select Group. The common areas were over cooled and there was no adjustment to chilled water or set point temperatures on the roof chillers. Strata Global have raised the chilled water temperature by 2-3% degrees recently which should save money. The IOA had been asking Paul Brady to do this for months if not years but Select Group never bothered as they weren't paying the bills and their 100k pounds a year management fee wasn't enough to cover 'tricky' stuff like adjusting a dial!

The IOA in conjunction with Strata Global are also looking into energy reduction through the installation of BTU meters in each unit. They will meter unit AC consumption and even up the playing field as chiller costs will be based on usage. If occupants want to have their units ice cold then they'll have to pay for the pleasure. Currently the energy usage policy in the building is climatically irresponsible! The IOA are investigating costs for the BTU option with Strata Global.

*Lack of Essential Services*

According to Strata Global Select Group provided a skeletal FM service which had no provisions for maintaining things like the 'lifting station' -aka the submersible pump in the footings which keeps them dry. So the new FM provider called Lootah FM is supposedly providing a comprehensive service which will address the gaps left by Select. 

*Hyper Mark Ups. *

I've seen the line item costings supplied by Lootah and the costs are eye watering. The obvious question you will ask is "why don't we look at other FM providers" - well the answer is they are generally all the same - they are RIP OFF merchants exactly like Select Group. 

We've been told we need a full time life guard according to Dubai Municipality rules 'cos some drunken **** drowned in a pool somewhere. So the FM provider quoted us about 300% percent more than what you'd pay if you hired directly. Specialised maintenance such as pump maintenance is seriously marked up. Lootah wanted 52,000 + AED for a quarterly service of our pump. That's £2,500 quid a pop. You could pay a British pump engineer 500 quid for an hour or two's work, fly him out and put him up in the Royal Mirage for a night for less! Totally barking!

*Summary. *

From my perspective the developers and FM providers are using RERA rules and regs to bamboozle owners in order to attach themselves to our service charges for as long as they possibly can. 

The whole property development market seems to be re-alligning itself for FM as this is where the money is (at the moment) The developers can't legally provide FM services once a building is JOP compliant and RERA certified with a bona fide owners association. So the developers appear to be either setting up FM subsidiaries or getting very cosy with FM providers and OA managed services providers. It's a bit like a baton pass in the "Rip of Dubai Owners 2011" relay race. 

What's the answer - I think getting the OA registered through RERA is the only way to get any control. Once this is in place you can get rid of all the blood suckers attached to the service charge funds and write direct contracts between the Point Development Ltd company and service providers. The umbrella FM providers and OA management firms are way to greedy to stay in business. 

Essentially developers and FM companies still perceive owners to be a load of mugs with too much money to care about being fleeced. Times have changed but they haven't. 

Adapt or die. I would prefer they did the latter!

Remember to send your proxy vote


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## RedWayne28thfloor

SGrCRAP said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Thought I'd fill you guys in a bit on what's been going on.
> 
> Fristly and most importantly there will be an email going out to all owners in the next day or so which asks you to complete a proxy form for the AGM if you can't attend. We could really do with as many proxy votes as possible as Select can exercise 61 votes at the AGM due to their illegal contract ammendment for LPP owners. (As you know they took away LPP owners voting rights by blackmailing them prior to handover)
> 
> So keep you eyes on your email for the proxy forms - the email will contain names of owners going to the AGM which you can use to carry your vote.
> 
> The reasons the service charges have gone up are:-
> 
> 
> Chiller Fees
> Lack of essential maintenance
> Hyper marked up services
> 
> The IOA has been battling to try and get these areas under control.
> 
> *Chiller Fees *
> 
> With regard to the Chilled water provision the building AC was exceptionally poorly managed by Select Group. The common areas were over cooled and there was no adjustment to chilled water or set point temperatures on the roof chillers. Strata Global have raised the chilled water temperature by 2-3% degrees recently which should save money. The IOA had been asking Paul Brady to do this for months if not years but Select Group never bothered as they weren't paying the bills and their 100k pounds a year management fee wasn't enough to cover 'tricky' stuff like adjusting a dial!
> 
> The IOA in conjunction with Strata Global are also looking into energy reduction through the installation of BTU meters in each unit. They will meter unit AC consumption and even up the playing field as chiller costs will be based on usage. If occupants want to have their units ice cold then they'll have to pay for the pleasure. Currently the energy usage policy in the building is climatically irresponsible! The IOA are investigating costs for the BTU option with Strata Global.
> 
> *Lack of Essential Services*
> 
> According to Strata Global Select Group provided a skeletal FM service which had no provisions for maintaining things like the 'lifting station' -aka the submersible pump in the footings which keeps them dry. So the new FM provider called Lootah FM is supposedly providing a comprehensive service which will address the gaps left by Select.
> 
> *Hyper Mark Ups. *
> 
> I've seen the line item costings supplied by Lootah and the costs are eye watering. The obvious question you will ask is "why don't we look at other FM providers" - well the answer is they are generally all the same - they are RIP OFF merchants exactly like Select Group.
> 
> We've been told we need a full time life guard according to Dubai Municipality rules 'cos some drunken **** drowned in a pool somewhere. So the FM provider quoted us about 300% percent more than what you'd pay if you hired directly. Specialised maintenance such as pump maintenance is seriously marked up. Lootah wanted 52,000 + AED for a quarterly service of our pump. That's £2,500 quid a pop. You could pay a British pump engineer 500 quid for an hour or two's work, fly him out and put him up in the Royal Mirage for a night for less! Totally barking!
> 
> *Summary. *
> 
> From my perspective the developers and FM providers are using RERA rules and regs to bamboozle owners in order to attach themselves to our service charges for as long as they possibly can.
> 
> The whole property development market seems to be re-alligning itself for FM as this is where the money is (at the moment) The developers can't legally provide FM services once a building is JOP compliant and RERA certified with a bona fide owners association. So the developers appear to be either setting up FM subsidiaries or getting very cosy with FM providers and OA managed services providers. It's a bit like a baton pass in the "Rip of Dubai Owners 2011" relay race.
> 
> What's the answer - I think getting the OA registered through RERA is the only way to get any control. Once this is in place you can get rid of all the blood suckers attached to the service charge funds and write direct contracts between the Point Development Ltd company and service providers. The umbrella FM providers and OA management firms are way to greedy to stay in business.
> 
> Essentially developers and FM companies still perceive owners to be a load of mugs with too much money to care about being fleeced. Times have changed but they haven't.
> 
> Adapt or die. I would prefer they did the latter!
> 
> Remember to send your proxy vote


Did any point owners who didn't sign the addendum manage to get their keys?


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## SGrCRAP

ramzy said:


> Isn't there a Dubia law which states that an owners association must be setup and registered with Rera upon completion by the developer? If so can't the full list of owners be acquired from rera?


From our experience RERA couldn't give a monkeys about owners. We've seen that at other development too. The IOA went to see them recently and they laughed at them throughout the whole meeting. They said we had a fine building and it was up to us to sort things out - Go figure!

Select never provided an owners list at the Point as they said it contravened people's privacy or some shit like that. As sure as night follows day they will try to confuse and misdirect you as it provides the perfect cover to extract as much cash as possible. 

Best plan is to get your IOA setup ASAP. Then get the building surveyed with someone like Scream!Point (will let you know what they're like) - at the same time get your AGM set up and appoint your OA board who must all be resident. You'll need a minimum of 5 people on the board. Once the surveys done and assuming all is OK (unlikely) you can get the OA formalised and become JOP compliant. Then you hoof all the parasites out and get some value for money by going direct. You will have to push and hound Select Group all the time otherwise they will default to "all ahead dead slow"


By the way - Select Group charged us about £100,000 sterling for a "management fee" at the Point - what did they do for their money you may ask? ... they outsourced the whole FM piece to CityServe who'd marked everything up. Cityserve then dropped in a load of sub contractors who Select Group didn't /couldn't/wouldn't manage. Select in conjunction with CityServe then totally over egged the pudding by appointing as many bodies on the ground as possible. I think there were 8 or 9 cleaners at one time, 2 full time security guards plus a concierge! What did they do? Nothing!


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## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> Please refer to clause 10.1..YOU MUST accept handover within 30 days max....etc
> Is this valid? If one accepts handover, is it available -immediately- to occupy?


30 days from when 1st May or when you receive your handover notice?

Also, there are charges of AED 3000 to pay for oqood admin fee, even though the 1% law 13 fee has already been paid.

plus 1110 DEWA deposit and connection fee.


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## thebhoypc

IF SOMEONE POSTS AN EMAIL ADDRESS ILL SEND THEM A COPY OF AN ADDENDUM TO POST.

CHEERS


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## Sid

Notification arrived today.
27th floor.
SPP
Goodwill: AED5.5K


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## RedWayne28thfloor

Rider said:


> How can Select be removed if most owners are on LPP and are effectively being asked to sign away their voting rights for the next 9 years?
> 
> Also, are the service charges based on the sq feet as documented in the SPA or have they measured all the apartments on completion? The reason I ask is because I believe there is an issue with some of the 3 beds and it may be worth verifying the actual size of the apartments.


I guess the only thing you can do is look to re-mortgage once the building is complete. Still not so easy but probably the only option


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## Joannides

i noticed in the statement of account they sent through that theyre trying to charge me a second time for the registation / oqood fees again despite me paying it when they first demanded it a couple of years ago.

has this happened to anyone else? also, can anyone remember approximately when we were asked to pay the land registration fee?

thanks


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## CAJ

Joannides said:


> i noticed in the statement of account they sent through that theyre trying to charge me a second time for the registation / oqood fees again despite me paying it when they first demanded it a couple of years ago.
> 
> has this happened to anyone else? also, can anyone remember approximately when we were asked to pay the land registration fee?
> 
> thanks


Nov 08 but just paid the 1% fee not the OGOOD fee


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## Rider

^^ They should have sent you a receipt in the post once you made the payment. I can't quite remember which month but pretty sure it was late 2008 or 2009.


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## Joannides

^^
many thanks all.

never recieved a receipt, although tranferred via moneycorp, so will get proof from them. thanks again


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## mackie1964

Many thanks Steve for posting. I have not received anything.

As far as I am concern, my position is clear, I have a contract in place that accommodate for the LLP payments and will not sign anything else. If they refuse to hand me the apartment, I will be calling the police and gain an entry to my unit :cheers:

This will be for our own use so I am not in a hurry!

With regard to the service charges, I am astonished at the cost estimated comparing with what I am paying elsewhere in the Marina. Allover the world, maintaining supertalls / sqft is much cheaper than maintaining 30/40 floors to the same standards by nearly 30 to 40%.

Let the games begin :cheers:


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## Dubai_Steve

Joannides said:


> i noticed in the statement of account they sent through that theyre trying to charge me a second time for the registation / oqood fees again despite me paying it when they first demanded it a couple of years ago.
> 
> has this happened to anyone else? also, can anyone remember approximately when we were asked to pay the land registration fee?
> 
> thanks


Probably you paid only the 1% law 13 fee and not the 3000 oqood admin fee. Check your money transfer receipt/request form.


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## Joannides

Dubai_Steve said:


> Probably you paid only the 1% law 13 fee and not the 3000 oqood admin fee. Check your money transfer receipt/request form.


just checked mith moneycorp, and that indeed is the case (1% but not oqood fee)


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## Rider

Dubai_Steve said:


> Great! now the car park will stink of stale urine. :bash:


Taking the piss seems to be par for the course :bash:


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## Dubai_Steve

mackie1964 said:


> With regard to the service charges, I am astonished at the cost estimated comparing with what I am paying elsewhere in the Marina. Allover the world, maintaining supertalls / sqft is much cheaper than maintaining 30/40 floors to the same standards by nearly 30 to 40%.
> 
> Let the games begin :cheers:


Something I don't understand. 

The maintenance charges are set at 15.2 and the chiller charges at 5 making a total of 20.2 per sq ft. However, in the Select tenancy agreement for LPP buyers it states:

_The Tenant will pay all charges for electricity, water, fuel, gas, sewerage, *chilled water* and other utilities consumed in the Property, and all charges for telephone communications or other services connected to the Property. The Tenant will pay all Municipality or other taxes, duties, charges and ssessments levied on the Property during the Tenancy Period._

Doe this mean that chiller charges are paid by the tenant, in which case the maintenance charges are effectively only 15.2? However, the chiller charges need to be paid in full before handover. Does this mean the tenant will be paying the charge as well as the owner?

Am I missing something here?


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## Caoi1971

Notification came today email email. 66th Floor. Goodwill ~8kAED


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## foxy

On SPP and havn't received an email or a letter!!

Paid 1% registration on 7/10/2008. 

Looks like the goodwill gesture is less than 1%. 

Regarding the maintenance charge.. are they not supposed to be RERA aproved?

ps where Is TB?? not like him to be so quiet.


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## Anjam

Joannides said:


> i noticed in the statement of account they sent through that theyre trying to charge me a second time for the registation / oqood fees again despite me paying it when they first demanded it a couple of years ago.
> 
> has this happened to anyone else? also, can anyone remember approximately when we were asked to pay the land registration fee?
> 
> thanks


I was under similar impression, think I paid OQOOD along with the 1%. Will check when I get home. I have received the registration title from the Land Department which made me think I may have paid the fees. It's unlike Select to send anything unless it is paid for!


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## Anjam

Any pics of the emerging spire and reducing scaffolding ?


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## Sid

foxy said:


> On SPP and havn't received an email or a letter!!
> 
> Paid 1% registration on 7/10/2008.
> 
> Looks like the goodwill gesture is less than 1%.
> 
> Regarding the maintenance charge.. are they not supposed to be RERA aproved?
> 
> ps where Is TB?? not like him to be so quiet.


TB is fresh out of negative comments. He'll be back soon... :lol:


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## Dubai_Steve

Anjam said:


> I was under similar impression, think I paid OQOOD along with the 1%. Will check when I get home. I have received the registration title from the Land Department which made me think I may have paid the fees. It's unlike Select to send anything unless it is paid for!


It seems that we only paid the 1% fee and not an admin fee but according to the part of the email below from Select Property (UK) in Nov 2008, this should have been registered for us for those who paid early? So I am not sure that we should have to pay the 3000 feee now!

_You are requested to please arrange to pay your 1% proportion of the registration fee now to enable us to complete registration in your favour as soon as possible. Buyers are not required to visit the Land Department in person for registration of the sales. *We will be given access to a Land Department system to register all sales in accordance with our records.*_


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## Rider

Cayan sent me details of an apartment available at Silverene a couple of months ago (similar cost to my 2 bed at Torch) and the price breakdown shows OQOOD pre-registration fee AED 5,000 so perhaps this is the norm.


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## FWIW

mackie1964 said:


> Many thanks Steve for posting. I have not received anything.
> 
> As far as I am concern, my position is clear, I have a contract in place that accommodate for the LLP payments and will not sign anything else. If they refuse to hand me the apartment, I will be calling the police and gain an entry to my unit :cheers:
> 
> This will be for our own use so I am not in a hurry!
> 
> With regard to the service charges, I am astonished at the cost estimated comparing with what I am paying elsewhere in the Marina. Allover the world, maintaining supertalls / sqft is much cheaper than maintaining 30/40 floors to the same standards by nearly 30 to 40%.
> 
> Let the games begin :cheers:


Well said Mackie!

I think if you have these words in your SPA then you should be protected to some degree!

_"No variation of this Agreement shall be valid unless it is in writing and signed by each of the Parties or their authorised representatives"_

If people sign the SVA, then they agree with the whole SVA.

Reading the SVA, it seems like they are threatening that no signature on SVA, then handover process cannot continue. That is a load of tosh in my book.


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## Rider

When I first spoke with Select 5 or 6 years ago, they sent me a copy of the SPA and were adament that no changes were allowed to be made to the terms and conditions. 

I was unhappy with some of the terms but signed it in any case. Now they want to have their cake and eat it. 

LPP owners, stand firm and don't sign otherwise we will face years of high service charges and the same issues as Point owners have faced.


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## Dubai_Steve

Didn't we discuss this before for the Point handover. In the end everyone signed the addendums to get handover.


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## Anjam

I think everyone at the Point ended up signing it


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## FWIW

Anjam said:


> I think everyone at the Point ended up signing it


But with hindsight would they still do it?

Are there any Point investors who are also Torch investors?


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## Anjam

Some of the comments from the Point investors are that it hasn't really made any difference to the rentability (is that a word?) of the property.


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## glover

Article 7(1) of the Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 clearly forbids the developer from refusing to handover the completed unit of an off-plan apartment if the buyer has fullfiled all his obligations.

If Select insists on signing the addendum, take all documents to RERA/Legal Department in LD.

ARTICLE 7(1)
The Master developer or sub-developer may not, when the real estate project is completed and the developer has obtained the Certificate of Completion from the competent authorities, refuse to handover or register the real estate unit under the name of the Buyer in the Real Estate Registry, so long as the Buyer has fulfilled all his contractual obligations, even if there was any other financial obligations due to the Developer from the Buyer not arising from the Sale Contract of the real estate unit. (my translation)


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## ZARO786

*The Torch - Charges*

Dear The Torch Investors,

I have also recently received an email confirmation from Select of the proposed handover and the charges that has been applied to our investments. Like all of you, I am also somewhat baffled by the high fees that has been applied esp :

1) Building Charges and 2) Pre reg and Misc charges 

I have not known any developer to charge in excess of 20aed/sq ft in the current economic climate. I think those of you who are familiar to Dubai Marina are aware of the current rate of charges which are in force with different projects.

"Captital Reserve Fund" - again this too is beyond me - seems like some sort of a contingency fund.

"Provisional" Chilled Water Charge for a/c - again I am not too convinced of this. Knowing Select - the only way is up! 

Oqood "Admin" fee - see esponse below from CEO of RERA

"Affection Plan Charges" - What is this ??

Having read the a/c sheet in detail, I decided to write to CEO of RERA fro clarification - Marwan Bin Ghulaita as I have dealt with him on number of occasions in the past in relation to The Torch project. Please find a response from him:

Ceo Office
From: Marwan Bin Ghulaita ([email protected]) 
Sent: 14 April 2011 14:04:20 
To: 
Cc: Ceo Office ([email protected]) 


Dear , 
Thanks for your contact. As I read from your email if the building is ready there is no need for Oqood registration it should be registered in land system directly and the fees is 1% of the amount unless agreed otherwise on SPA. Regarding service charge it should be approved by RERA so ask your developer for the approved letter. Regarding delay and other things you should look at the spa and see how it deals with this issue. 
I hope its all clear and if you need more info you can contact land dept registration section as this process handled by them. 
Best Regards,,, 
" The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams" E. Roosevelt 

Eng. Marwan Bin Ghulaita 
CEO 
RERA 
+97142030333 [/SIZE][/B] 

We need to ask Select for transparency and proof on all the fees that has been levied.
In addition, we should ask Select for an approval letter for the building charges since this has to be approved and stamped by RERA.


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## RedWayne28thfloor

It's a bloody minefield!!


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## Rider

^^ Thanks for sharing that. 

Isn't OQOOD simply a database for developers to register the owner details of off-plan properties which haven't been completed? Once completed, the Land Registry should then come into play so why do owners details need to registered with OQOOD at this stage in the game?

I too am baffled by the other charges and will be seeking clarification before I even consider paying them.


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## FWIW

glover said:


> Article 7(1) of the Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 clearly forbids the developer from refusing to handover the completed unit of an off-plan apartment if the buyer has fullfiled all his obligations.
> 
> If Select insists on signing the addendum, take all documents to RERA/Legal Department in LD.
> 
> ARTICLE 7(1)
> The Master developer or sub-developer may not, when the real estate project is completed and the developer has obtained the Certificate of Completion from the competent authorities, refuse to handover or register the real estate unit under the name of the Buyer in the Real Estate Registry, so long as the Buyer has fulfilled all his contractual obligations, even if there was any other financial obligations due to the Developer from the Buyer not arising from the Sale Contract of the real estate unit. (my translation)



Thanks for that Glover - I did a quick search and found this informative article:

https://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sid...i Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 

Also this is quite useful:

http://altamimi.newsweaver.ie/Newsletter/kalr5lz78an


----------



## shakka

ZARO786 said:


> Dear The Torch Investors,
> 
> I have also recently received an email confirmation from Select of the proposed handover and the charges that has been applied to our investments. Like all of you, I am also somewhat baffled by the high fees that has been applied esp :
> 
> 1) Building Charges and 2) Pre reg and Misc charges
> 
> I have not known any developer to charge in excess of 20aed/sq ft in the current economic climate. I think those of you who are familiar to Dubai Marina are aware of the current rate of charges which are in force with different projects.
> 
> "Captital Reserve Fund" - again this too is beyond me - seems like some sort of a contingency fund.
> 
> "Provisional" Chilled Water Charge for a/c - again I am not too convinced of this. Knowing Select - the only way is up!
> 
> Oqood "Admin" fee - see esponse below from CEO of RERA
> 
> "Affection Plan Charges" - What is this ??
> 
> Having read the a/c sheet in detail, I decided to write to CEO of RERA fro clarification - Marwan Bin Ghulaita as I have dealt with him on number of occasions in the past in relation to The Torch project. Please find a response from him:
> 
> Ceo Office
> From: Marwan Bin Ghulaita ([email protected])
> Sent: 14 April 2011 14:04:20
> To:
> Cc: Ceo Office ([email protected])
> 
> 
> Dear ,
> Thanks for your contact. As I read from your email if the building is ready there is no need for Oqood registration it should be registered in land system directly and the fees is 1% of the amount unless agreed otherwise on SPA. Regarding service charge it should be approved by RERA so ask your developer for the approved letter. Regarding delay and other things you should look at the spa and see how it deals with this issue.
> I hope its all clear and if you need more info you can contact land dept registration section as this process handled by them.
> Best Regards,,,
> " The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams" E. Roosevelt
> 
> Eng. Marwan Bin Ghulaita
> CEO
> RERA
> +97142030333 [/SIZE][/B]
> 
> We need to ask Select for transparency and proof on all the fees that has been levied.
> In addition, we should ask Select for an approval letter for the building charges since this has to be approved and stamped by RERA.


It would be great if we had a set procedure to follow that would allow us handover without signing addendum or paying oqood fees if they are already covered by our law 13 land reg payment request some years ago. I feel that Select's reps will just ignore you unless you had a solicitor with you to prove that they are breaking the law. If everyone stood firm then this would happen but EVERYONE has to stand firm.


----------



## shakka

Has anyone on LPP had goodwill charge credited to them?


----------



## Anjam

shakka said:


> Has anyone on LPP had goodwill charge credited to them?


^^ Yes


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ yes, most seem to have, but not all.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Rider said:


> ^^ Thanks for sharing that.
> 
> Isn't OQOOD simply a database for developers to register the owner details of off-plan properties which haven't been completed? Once completed, the Land Registry should then come into play so why do owners details need to registered with OQOOD at this stage in the game?
> 
> I too am baffled by the other charges and will be seeking clarification before I even consider paying them.


I don't think we should have to pay this AED 3000 (£500) oqood fee. We need clarification.


----------



## Psofos

Anjam said:


> Based on a discussion I had many years ago with Select, they said either owner can go. I have sent them another email to confirm this.


I left my wife behind and went on my own but ensured that she signed an authorisation and also attached a copy of her passport. This was also witnessed by a third party and his passport copy was also attached. Make sure the page in the passport bearing the signature is copied and that it matches the signature on the letter

Louise will advise you on current procedure acceptable to SG. I think she has a template. If not, pm me and I will send you a template which you can pass by SG before setting off to Dubai.

Psofos.


----------



## Psofos

nn


----------



## mackie1964

All the other developers that I had to deal with in the past charged me AED275 or 295 or nothing at all for the registeration fee hno:

My unit is already registered so, no oqood fees from me. RERA will need a NOC Letter from the developer to release the title deed, this is where I can see me having a fight also hno:

@Steve; The chilling is obviously central and there is no individual units for apartments. The developer will have to pay the utility bills and divide it by the overall sqft in the building and pass it back on to the owner through the service charges. Its normal practice in 90% of Dubai Marina Towers. You will have to charge your tenant the AED5/sqft upfront as part of your tenancy agreement or, increase the rent and recover it that way. That's what I do


----------



## MANUTD

RedWayne28thfloor said:


> Did any point owners who didn't sign the addendum manage to get their keys?


THERE WAS A LOT OF "TALK" ABOUT PHONING THE POLICE TO GET OUR KEYS AT HANDOVER BUT WE ALL CAVED IN AT THE END -- NOT THAT I WILL CAVE IN AGAIN WITH SG --


----------



## smshah

*select ripping me off*

Dear Fellow investors

i received a summary of account for my torch apartment. i'm on a SP payment plan so i have paid 90%. On the statement it says a late payment charge of approx 2950 DHS. I queried this and select said i was late on my third installment due 1st june 06 by six months!!!!!. I looked at my receipts and found the receipt for my third installment dated 7/06/06!!!!! WATCH YOUR STATEMENTS LADS!!!!


----------



## FWIW

smshah said:


> Dear Fellow investors
> 
> i received a summary of account for my torch apartment. i'm on a SP payment plan so i have paid 90%. On the statement it says a late payment charge of approx 2950 DHS. I queried this and select said i was late on my third installment due 1st june 06 by six months!!!!!. I looked at my receipts and found the receipt for my third installment dated 7/06/06!!!!! WATCH YOUR STATEMENTS LADS!!!!


So are you saying that they didn't even check their own systems?

SG are beyond a joke. They should be grovelling for your forgivenes.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Maybe they meant late by 6 days instead of months? :dunno:


----------



## smshah

Dubai_Steve said:


> Maybe they meant late by 6 days instead of months? :dunno:


No, i did ask that but the guy at select said transfer received 7/12/06 when the receipt says 7/06/06


----------



## ramzy

Sid said:


> Notification arrived today.
> 27th floor.
> SPP
> Goodwill: AED5.5K


I'm on 18th (was 12), SPP , goodwill 5.9k


----------



## markev

We got our completion notice via e-mail today - hard copy to follow via courier. We're on floor 23 , on spp and our goodwill amount is AED 8.1k


----------



## SGrCRAP

Anjam said:


> Some of the comments from the Point investors are that it hasn't really made any difference to the rentability (is that a word?) of the property.



We'll see after our AGM on the 18th. If we get tucked up by Select you KNOW what's coming your way. The addendums are ILLEGAL folks - don't let them blackmail you guys as well.

20+AED/sqft  service charge is a joke by the way. I would estimate 40% of it is going into the coffers of Select and their useless FM outsourcing buddies. Bet you guys will get 'Cityserve' for your FM provision and 'NEB' for your 'independent' surveyor. If you see these two companies referred to by Select's King of Bullshit - prepare for 12 months of service charge increases with inversely proportional levels of service PLUS the billy bonus.... common area snags which will never be fixed!


----------



## 234sale

CAJ said:


> Nov 08 but just paid the 1% fee not the OGOOD fee


The oqood charge is only 295AED


----------



## Rider

SGrCRAP said:


> We'll see after our AGM on the 18th. If we get tucked up by Select you KNOW what's coming your way. The addendums are ILLEGAL folks - don't let them blackmail you guys as well.
> 
> 20+AED/sqft service charge is a joke by the way. I would estimate 40% of it is going into the coffers of Select and their useless FM outsourcing buddies. Bet you guys will get 'Cityserve' for your FM provision and 'NEB' for your 'independent' surveyor. If you see these two companies referred to by Select's King of Bullshit - prepare for 12 months of service charge increases with inversely proportional levels of service PLUS the billy bonus.... common area snags which will never be fixed!


If Select have the voting rights of all your LPP owners, how are you going to get rid of them?

I can't believe the authorities allow such practices to go on. Talk about a conflict of interests. They must be about as wanted as a fart in an astronaut's suit.

PS: Many thanks as always Imre, great shots.


----------



## Rider

^^ Thanks 234Sale

I also found this which you posted previously, issued by RERA as current procedure. 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1140383

Looks like the OQOOD transaction charge went from AED 295 to 1000 in a short space of time so a nice 200% mark up for Select with them charging AED 3000. The apartments should have been registered when the OQOOD system first came out, not when the building is complete so it's too late to do it now as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Joannides

why do i fear this oqood fee is going to be a problem. its clear that we're being fleeced, altough these cowboys are out to get what they can and i'd be surprised if they back down.

do we have any recource? there seems to be nothing stating that a developer can't charge an overhead :-(

also, i am not sure why we would have been asked to pay 1% fee if it wasnt registered then???


----------



## Anjam

Joannides said:


> why do i fear this oqood fee is going to be a problem. its clear that we're being fleeced, altough these cowboys are out to get what they can and i'd be surprised if they back down.
> 
> do we have any recource? there seems to be nothing stating that a developer can't charge an overhead :-(
> 
> also, i am not sure why we would have been asked to pay 1% fee if it wasnt registered then???


I have received my OQOOD registration so properties must have been registered over 2 years ago.


----------



## mskhan

Received handover documents by email. Originals to follow by courier.
I am on floor 31 (previously 24) - 2 bedroom. Goodwill amount 8.6K


----------



## SGrCRAP

*PROXY VOTES*

Don't forget folks - if you're not on the LPP please send your proxy votes into Sara. 

[email protected]

Every one counts. Apparently they need to see your passport and a copy of the title deeds too.


----------



## torchowner

Following the expose' in the March 20th edition of the Mail On Sunday regarding the dealings of Select Property in the UK, journalist Tony Hetherington is now looking into the dealings of both Select Property and the Select Group in the UAE. 
If you have bought a property through either, or both of these companies , and feel that you have been misled, lied to or simply not received what you paid for thenTony would like to hear from you.
In the first instance please write to;
Tony Hetherington,
Financial Mail,
2, Derby Street,
London, W8 5TS


----------



## torchowner

Following the expose' in the March 20th edition of the Mail On Sunday regarding the dealings of Select Property in the UK, journalist Tony Hetherington is now looking into the dealings of both Select Property and the Select Group in the UAE. 
If you have bought a property through either, or both of these companies , and feel that you have been misled, lied to or simply not received what you paid for thenTony would like to hear from you.
In the first instance please write to;
Tony Hetherington,
Financial Mail,
2, Derby Street,
London, W8 5TS


----------



## NEMISIS

torchowner said:


> Following the expose' in the March 20th edition of the Mail On Sunday regarding the dealings of Select Property in the UK, journalist Tony Hetherington is now looking into the dealings of both Select Property and the Select Group in the UAE.
> If you have bought a property through either, or both of these companies , and feel that you have been misled, lied to or simply not received what you paid for thenTony would like to hear from you.
> In the first instance please write to;
> Tony Hetherington,
> Financial Mail,
> 2, Derby Street,
> London, W8 5TS


I too would urge you all to speak to the Mail. They have legal teams looking at the practices of Sp and SG as we speak.

Anyone who signs the addendum is potentialy giving up the rights of their propoerty to an unknown 3rd party who may further securitise their interests in it. What if this 3rd party were to go bankrupt with their share of your appartment used as security.


----------



## ramzy

Anjam said:


> I have received my OQOOD registration so properties must have been registered over 2 years ago.


In the account sheet SG sent to me, it shows the receipt of the 1% Registration fee (law 13). I also have a document which shows the Contract was registered in OQOOD, but does that mean it's only the sale that was registered and not the Title.

Isn't the 3000AED for Title registration with land department then?hno:


----------



## ramzy

NEMISIS said:


> I too would urge you all to speak to the Mail. They have legal teams looking at the practices of Sp and SG as we speak.
> 
> Anyone who signs the addendum is potentialy giving up the rights of their propoerty to an unknown 3rd party who may further securitise their interests in it. What if this 3rd party were to go bankrupt with their share of your appartment used as security.


Is this the Addendum for the LPP owners you are reffering to??


----------



## Dubai_Steve

NEMISIS said:


> Anyone who signs the addendum is potentialy giving up the rights of their propoerty to an unknown 3rd party who may further securitise their interests in it. What if this 3rd party were to go bankrupt with their share of your appartment used as security.












Doesn't the highlighted section stop your worst case scenario above?


----------



## Rider

*OQOOD*
OQOOD is something which came along after our SPAs were signed. The grey area is who pays for the registration - the developer (seller) or the buyer. Why should all the owners have to pay for it when the SPA doesn't cover it. Surely a fair comprimise is 50/50 split or worst case the charge is billed to the owner AT COST. To hell with this 200% mark-up - I'm not having it - it's fleecing at it's worst. Not only that, it's too late to charge it now when the building is complete, as stated in the email from RERA.

*LPP ADDENDUM*
Agree 100% (or 200%) with everyone who says DON'T SIGN THE ADDENDUM LPP OWNERS. My fear is that many LPP owners don't read this forum and are not aware of what they are signing away and the level of service they'll get in the future, giving Select a majority of voting rights which will allow them to do what they like for years to come. 

Imagine there's another banking crisis and all the UK the banks are struggling to make money. Barclays bank (hypothetically speaking) then decide to walk into an apartment block in London full of residents who have mortgages with them. They insist on each mortgage holder signing an addendum to the mortgage agreement which allows Barclays to take over the building maintenance contract having gained all voting rights before charging residents what they like - it's unthinkable.


----------



## mackie1964

NEMISIS said:


> I too would urge you all to speak to the Mail. They have legal teams looking at the practices of Sp and SG as we speak.
> 
> *Anyone who signs the addendum is potentialy giving up the rights of their propoerty to an unknown 3rd party who may further securitise their interests in it. What if this 3rd party were to go bankrupt with their share of your appartment used as security*.


Absolutely correct and I have been advised legally not to sign it too. :applause::applause: It's clear to me that SG are going to sell the LLP on at a reduced value at some point soon and walk away!!

I have not received anything yet but will not sign it. I would also check all of your payments against what they are asking, their accounts are all over the place, I paid much more than they said I did last time I checked the balance, if compared with all the receipts I got. I just never had the time to sort it out before now hno:

I have been contacted also by a few groups and someone from the media but, I have no interest in harming SP under the current financial climate despite being very disappointed with their original practices, it will contribute nothing positive to me. I, however, will never forgive SG and shall take them on in the UAE alone and not in a group but will do it at the right time and get the right result, they will not see it coming, I promise. 

I have enough information and set aside enough funds to ensure success. 

Let the investors get their units here, BC and Botanica first as I promised a few people before :cheers: I will be the first at that witness stand and I am sure a few here would be too. Some high profile guys in Dubai are not happy with them too, it's only a matter of time


----------



## Rider

The notice of completion states 'Handover appointments *can only be confirmed *upon receipt of all signed documents detailed above' i.e. the two addendums.

So, it would appear that LPP owners who don't sign the addendums won't get an appointment to receive their unit. 

I'm not paying the OQOOD charge so I'll be interested to hear how the 'phoning the police' route works for LPP owners who won't sign.


----------



## mackie1964

Dubai_Steve said:


> Something I don't understand.
> 
> The maintenance charges are set at 15.2 and the chiller charges at 5 making a total of 20.2 per sq ft. However, in the Select tenancy agreement for LPP buyers it states:
> 
> _The Tenant will pay all charges for electricity, water, fuel, gas, sewerage, *chilled water* and other utilities consumed in the Property, and all charges for telephone communications or other services connected to the Property. The Tenant will pay all Municipality or other taxes, duties, charges and ssessments levied on the Property during the Tenancy Period._
> 
> Doe this mean that chiller charges are paid by the tenant, in which case the maintenance charges are effectively only 15.2? However, the chiller charges need to be paid in full before handover. Does this mean the tenant will be paying the charge as well as the owner?
> 
> *Am I missing something here*?


You are assuming that everyone will have a tenant. The unit will be chilled, occupied or not


----------



## Dubai_Steve

But how can we get handover without signing it?

I assume quite a few will sign, especially those who don't read this forums.


----------



## mackie1964

You will be amazed how many people read the Torch thread  One guy that I met in my office over a year ago had 6 units between family and friends. He does not write here but reads it weekly at least, many more are the same.

There is a contract between two parties. Once I receive my completion notice, I will be ready to receive it within the limitation of the contract, providing all defects have been rectified!

If they refuse to hand me the unit, I know where to go 

I am only talking about myself here and not trying to influence anyone :cheers:

I will be amazed if SP/SG get/have major vote rights, even with the shared ownership/timeshare units considered. They will have a sizeable vote right / say in it supported by the unsuspected 

Anyway, go and have a drink and forget about it for the weekend. Have a great weekend everyone :cheers:


----------



## Mistermark

Guys,

There have been a couple of posts here recently from people who understandably want to expose SG's conduct to the white light of media scrutiny in the UK. As long-standing members will know, I went some way down that route in the summer of 2009 but backed off when it became clear there wasn't (yet) widespread support for such an action.

It seems to me that the developer's behaviour with regard to The Point and the ongoing delays and unmet deadlines on other projects suggest that there may soon be a consensus in favour of taking such steps. I am a former journalist and have excellent contacts in national newspaper groups and broadcasters which mean I am well placed to lead such a campaign, and as previously mentioned I laid the ground for doing so in the summer of 2009, so can easily revert to the plan if needs be.

For reasons I cannot go into here, I am not able to start such a process right now. However, I anticipate being able to post some information a week today - Friday 22 April - which will be of interest to anyone who is a current or potential customer of Select Group or it subsidiaries. Once you have digested it, please let me know if you would like me to take up the cudgels on your behalf.

Regarding strategy, I agree with Mackie. There is no point going after Select Property, the UK-based sales agent. It is entirely independent of the developer and in many respects is as much a victim of its conduct as we are. Equally, there is no point in seeking to persuade buyers of properties in projects that are well advanced to withhold payment - at this late stage, the least bad outcome for them is that the units are delivered. 

Rather, the interests of owners are best served by the developer's actions being placed in the public domain, along with the futility of trying to resolve disputes through the legal system of Dubai. This approach shames Dubai and its leaders in a country that is responsible for much of its inbound investment and tourism, and warns potential investors of the pitfalls of doing business there. The hoped-for outcome, as Mackie says, is for the authorities in Dubai to yank the developer's chain and make it very clear that such conduct, if not remedied, is unlikely to go unpunished.

Rant over. Just a week to go to the 22nd...


----------



## Imre

mackie1964 said:


> You will be amazed how many people read the Torch thread  One guy that I met in my office over a year ago had 6 units between family and friends. He does not write here but reads it weekly at least, many more are the same.


One of the forumers had 6 floors there , any info about him?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Rider said:


> Looks like the OQOOD transaction charge went from AED 295 to 1000 in a short space of time so a nice 200% mark up for Select with them charging AED 3000. The apartments should have been registered when the OQOOD system first came out, not when the building is complete so it's too late to do it now as far as I'm concerned.












The above could explain the new oqood charges? due to the change in numbering after you sign the first variation.

Looks like they have to be paid. Well at least they are not AED 5000 that Cayan are charging.


----------



## Caribarra

*Confused*

Hi All

May I ask, what happens if we don't sign do we simply carry on paying our payment plan and not receive our properties? and for how long, surely some authority there has to step in as this is blackmail - isn't it??????????

PLease advise - - - - - - - --- - -thanks


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ Your current contract says that your handover date must be before 30 business days after you receive written notice of completion unless both parties agree otherwise.


----------



## Rider

Dubai_Steve said:


> The above could explain the new oqood charges? due to the change in numbering after you sign the first variation.
> 
> Looks like they have to be paid. Well at least they are not AED 5000 that Cayan are charging.


But the change in apartmemt numbering was ordered by DEWA after the Developer *elected* to change the design of the building in order to maximise sales (less 3 beds and more 1 beds). I cannot for the life of me see why owners should have to pay for this.


----------



## mackie1964

Rider said:


> But the change in apartmemt numbering was ordered by DEWA after the Developer *elected* to change the design of the building in order to maximise sales (less 3 beds and more 1 beds). I cannot for the life of me see why owners should have to pay for this.


Not only that, the design was changed many times according to K&A and SG increased the number of floors and units (including commercial units too). These changes were the main contributors for the 3.5 years delay. over 500 investors lost money, SG (and to a degree SP) are making a killing and this has not stopped them from trying to screw us all again. They have no shame and trying to cash in as much as they can before ........... to be continued :cheers:

I stand corrected with regard to the voting block for the fractional ownership units. It has been brought to my attention (through a PM on this forum) that these votes are under the control of a trustee on behalf of the owners (not sure who this is). :cheers:



Dubai_Steve said:


> The above could explain the new oqood charges? due to the change in numbering after you sign the first variation.
> 
> Looks like they have to be paid. Well at least they are not AED 5000 that Cayan are charging.


Why would anyone pay for a change they did not ask for? SG/SP were the only beneficial from this change(selling additional units). Don’t believe anything else.


----------



## scoobudubai

torchowner said:


> Following the expose' in the March 20th edition of the Mail On Sunday regarding the dealings of Select Property in the UK, journalist Tony Hetherington is now looking into the dealings of both Select Property and the Select Group in the UAE.
> If you have bought a property through either, or both of these companies , and feel that you have been misled, lied to or simply not received what you paid for thenTony would like to hear from you.
> In the first instance please write to;
> Tony Hetherington,
> Financial Mail,
> 2, Derby Street,
> London, W8 5TS


We have a lot to say.
Why would Select care about the Mail on Sunday? I have not read it for 20 years. Surely it's The Sunday Times that matters?

I have a lot to say, as I said.

Although, on the other hand, fantastic news torchowner, well done. This is a way forward, and a very good one.


----------



## Mistermark

scoobudubai said:


> We have a lot to say.
> Why would Select care about the Mail on Sunday? I have not read it for 20 years. Surely it's The Sunday Times that matters?
> 
> I have a lot to say, as I said.
> 
> Although, on the other hand, fantastic news torchowner, well done. This is a way forward, and a very good one.


I think if we're going to do this, we should use every available channel. Not just newspapers, also TV.

All I ask is, please hold on until next Friday and I will be able to co-ordinate this.


----------



## shakka

We have all been waiting since 2008 for completion another week is not going to hurt.


----------



## Caribarra

HI ALL

So are you saying do not sign anything until next week, as I have to be honest im pretty confused about the situation. I have asked my agent for some advice on this.

Am I right in thinking that signing the addendum means that they can reposses my property as they please and not give me my money back, is it that bad????????????


----------



## Sid

Just an idea... I guess many of us are based in the UK?

If so, is it worth UK oweners meeting in a mutual location (London?) to discuss a way forward?


----------



## Sid

torchowner said:


> Following the expose' in the March 20th edition of the Mail On Sunday regarding the dealings of Select Property in the UK, journalist Tony Hetherington is now looking into the dealings of both Select Property and the Select Group in the UAE.
> If you have bought a property through either, or both of these companies , and feel that you have been misled, lied to or simply not received what you paid for thenTony would like to hear from you.
> In the first instance please write to;
> Tony Hetherington,
> Financial Mail,
> 2, Derby Street,
> London, W8 5TS


Is there an email address for Tony?


----------



## MANUTD

Mistermark said:


> Guys,
> 
> There have been a couple of posts here recently from people who understandably want to expose SG's conduct to the white light of media scrutiny in the UK. As long-standing members will know, I went some way down that route in the summer of 2009 but backed off when it became clear there wasn't (yet) widespread support for such an action.
> 
> It seems to me that the developer's behaviour with regard to The Point and the ongoing delays and unmet deadlines on other projects suggest that there may soon be a consensus in favour of taking such steps. I am a former journalist and have excellent contacts in national newspaper groups and broadcasters which mean I am well placed to lead such a campaign, and as previously mentioned I laid the ground for doing so in the summer of 2009, so can easily revert to the plan if needs be.
> 
> For reasons I cannot go into here, I am not able to start such a process right now. However, I anticipate being able to post some information a week today - Friday 22 April - which will be of interest to anyone who is a current or potential customer of Select Group or it subsidiaries. Once you have digested it, please let me know if you would like me to take up the cudgels on your behalf.
> 
> Regarding strategy, I agree with Mackie. There is no point going after Select Property, the UK-based sales agent. It is entirely independent of the developer and in many respects is as much a victim of its conduct as we are. Equally, there is no point in seeking to persuade buyers of properties in projects that are well advanced to withhold payment - at this late stage, the least bad outcome for them is that the units are delivered.
> 
> Rather, the interests of owners are best served by the developer's actions being placed in the public domain, along with the futility of trying to resolve disputes through the legal system of Dubai. This approach shames Dubai and its leaders in a country that is responsible for much of its inbound investment and tourism, and warns potential investors of the pitfalls of doing business there. The hoped-for outcome, as Mackie says, is for the authorities in Dubai to yank the developer's chain and make it very clear that such conduct, if not remedied, is unlikely to go unpunished.
> 
> Rant over. Just a week to go to the 22nd...


Your not far wrong there Mistermark

I think the authorites there are just STARTING to wake up and smell the coffee a little --NAKHEEL have lost a few cases in ARBITRATION and I am damm sure SG will do too -- IF, that is INVESTORS have the money and balls to take them on ! 

You're right though as much as SP are optimistic about DUBAI (they have to be really fare doos ? ) they are equally victims too of SELECT GROUP as we are.


----------



## Sheltie

Caribarra said:


> HI ALL
> 
> So are you saying do not sign anything until next week, as I have to be honest im pretty confused about the situation. I have asked my agent for some advice on this.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that signing the addendum means that they can reposses my property as they please and not give me my money back, is it that bad????????????


I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused here. What will happen if we sign the addendum?
In 2005 I bought 3 apartments in Dubai. One won't be built at all and I paid 50%, which I've probably lost, the second might be ready next year (hopefully) and the 3rd is in The Torch.
I know Select are *** but after 6 years I just feel that I am glad to get the keys for one of them. 
Can someone please explain why we shouldn't sign the addendum. I am on SSP.


----------



## scoobudubai

This twisted notion that SP is a victim :hilarious:


----------



## Rider

Sheltie said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one who is confused here. What will happen if we sign the addendum?
> In 2005 I bought 3 apartments in Dubai. One won't be built at all and I paid 50%, which I've probably lost, the second might be ready next year (hopefully) and the 3rd is in The Torch.
> I know Select are *** but after 6 years I just feel that I am glad to get the keys for one of them.
> Can someone please explain why we shouldn't sign the addendum. I am on SSP.


As an SPP owner this doesn't affect you in the same way as the only addendum you are being asked to sign relates to the change in apartment number. You will as the outright owner of your apartment retain the normal rights e.g. voting in the Torch owner's association (when it's formed) and you could potentially securitise a future loan/debt against your apartment which would be considered an asset of yours.


----------



## Sheltie

Thanks, Rider, for that info.


----------



## MANUTD

scoobudubai said:


> This twisted notion that SP is a victim :hilarious:


Not a notion its fact - but we will agree to disagree on that I ain't losing sleep
over Dubai any more


----------



## scoobudubai

MANUTD said:


> Not a notion its fact - but we will agree to disagree on that I ain't losing sleep
> over Dubai any more


So Mark Stott, Giles Beswick, and that other guy Littlewood are victims? !!!!!


----------



## NickBoyC

Hi All,
Has anyone decided to use Exclusive for the rental of their property utilising their Management Service? I think the fees for Management are 8% of the annual rental and on top of this a 300AED registration fee. Has anyone had a better offer than this?

Also regarding the comment about a meet in London to try and go through all this I would be in support of. I am also on LPP and would like to agree a course of action. I have no idea what I should be signing and what I shouldn't at this point.

Cheers

Nick


----------



## Psofos

scoobudubai said:


> We have a lot to say.
> Why would Select care about the Mail on Sunday? I have not read it for 20 years. Surely it's The Sunday Times that matters?
> 
> I have a lot to say, as I said.
> 
> Although, on the other hand, fantastic news torchowner, well done. This is a way forward, and a very good one.


Hi Scoobudubai
As a professional Marketer with PR and some Public Affairs experience, I would advise that you do not underestimate the MoS. 
I cannot wait to see SG and their affiliates get the adverse publicity they deserve.
Psofos.


----------



## Psofos

scoobudubai said:


> This twisted notion that SP is a victim :hilarious:


They are not a victim at all. In 2006 they gave me the impression that they were affiliates if not a sister company. It is only in early/mid 2009 when they began to distance themselves from SG in response to customer complaints!
Psofos


----------



## Psofos

SGrCRAP said:


> Don't forget folks - if you're not on the LPP please send your proxy votes into Sara.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Every one counts. Apparently they need to see your passport and a copy of the title deeds too.


They are really making it difficult! I have already sent the proxy form duly signed. It would be exceptionally difficult to send copies of passports and deeds. Who exactly wants to see copies of the passports and title deeds?
Psofos.


----------



## Caribarra

Hi there

Yes well join the club im as confused as anyone, do we sign don't we sign. What happens in the meantime?

Iam using Louise for my rentals etc. but I havn't got a place to rent yet...............

Select have a lot to answer for this con - fusion.

Thanks again for any advice..................


----------



## NickBoyC

On another note have we heard anything regarding car parking space allocation? Is this part of the hand over process?


----------



## ab31

Sid said:


> Is there an email address for Tony?


No, it can only be done by post there is no e-mail address in paper or on line that I could find.


----------



## Rider

I can't see how any adverse publicity could affect one and not the other. I agree with Psofos about SP suddenly distancing themselves from the developer in 2009.

In any case, people buying from SP in the future face the same risk in that they will eventually be at the mercy of the developer in whichever country they have bought in, assuming the same model is being used.


----------



## Mistermark

Caribarra said:


> Hi there
> 
> Yes well join the club im as confused as anyone, do we sign don't we sign. What happens in the meantime?
> 
> Iam using Louise for my rentals etc. but I havn't got a place to rent yet...............
> 
> Select have a lot to answer for this con - fusion.
> 
> Thanks again for any advice..................


Only you can decide, but my advice would be not to sign anything that reduces your rights and entitlements below those given in the Sale and Purchase Agreement.

The PR process I have in mind will result in the developer being put on an exceptionally short leash by the Dubai government, which will preclude them refusing to hand over apartments that are legitimately owned and paid for by customers.


----------



## Impy

*LLP*

hi all,

Plse excuse my ignorance, but I am working abroad, and will not return to the UK till the end of next week, hence I have not recieved any paperwork from SP.

In simple terms,please could someone precis for me the problems of signing the Apenndum(s) if one is on the LLP plan at The Torch ?

Many thanks


----------



## ab31

Impy said:


> hi all,
> 
> Plse excuse my ignorance, but I am working abroad, and will not return to the UK till the end of next week, hence I have not recieved any paperwork from SP.
> 
> In simple terms,please could someone precis for me the problems of signing the Apenndum(s) if one is on the LLP plan at The Torch ?
> 
> Many thanks


I thought I'd just done that!!!!!


----------



## scoobudubai

scoobudubai said:


> Adam Price, Sales Director of Secect Property, told us this in 2006:
> "The advantage to purchasing with Dubai Select being that as we are a UK company this increases the security of your investment in terms of a UK legally binding contract and both pre and post sales support."


"The Torch development is being developed by Dubai Select LLC. Dubai Select are working in association with architects Khatib and Alami on the development period. www.khatibalami.com 

In the contract I send across to you points 15.1- 15.4 will explain the procedure should the development be delayed. However Khatib and Alami are responsible for a number of Dubai governments backed developments and it is very unlikely that any delay will occur."


----------



## scoobudubai

Mistermark said:


> Giles,
> 
> I accept I'm at a disadvantage as I've been without postal deliveries for the past two days and expect to be for a couple more, so I haven't seen the letter, albeit that someone on this forum has kindly offered to fax me his tomorrow.
> 
> That said, I am shocked that the developer is now claiming Force Majeure. As I'm sure you know, in the three and a half years or thereabouts since the project was released, no such claim has previously been made and I am not aware of any wars, earthquakes, civil insurrection or other extreme and unanticipated events that have affected construction that would meet any normal definition of Force Majeure.
> 
> I will call you tomorrow because my own position on this is quite clear: unless the developer waives the LPP instalments until completion and provides a fair settlement on top of that, I would like to cancel my purchases and receive refunds of the sums paid to date, and I will be very disappointed if a fraudulent claim of Force Majeure is used to prevent me from receiving those refunds until after 31/06/09.
> 
> As to the argument that there is no common ownership between Torch Select Limited and Select Property/Stott Group, like someone else said, I'd be interested to see proof of this. Who are the registered directors and shareholders, and if the UK or Dubai companies have any nominee directors and shareholders, who are the beneficial owners or shadow directors? I appreciate that Dubai Free Zone companies don't have to publish such details, but that doesn't mean that a company can't choose to put them in the public domain.
> 
> I'm sure I also saw a press release or other media coverage stating that the developer was a JV between an Emirati and Mark Stott. If it emerges that he's one of the beneficial owners behind the Dubai-registered company then I wonder what sums he has drawn from that business and whether they have been declared to the Inland Revenue here in the UK, assuming he's UK domiciled.


Any progress on this front?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

ab31 said:


> b)There are serious *potential *problems if the owner of an apartment dies before completing payments.
> 
> c)If Select go bust,or decide to sell your share of your building this *could *lead to serious problems with regard to ownership.


Could you expand and clarify on these 2 points that you bring to the table please? People need to know why not to sign as at present there does not seem to be much reason apart from that select will get voting rights and control maintenance charges (currently set at 15.2 + 5 chiller fees). As you know people here want to start getting rental income now after 3 years delay so 15.2 + 5 does not seems bad really, the 5 will be paid for by the tenant.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

CULWULLA said:


> Torch is now tallest resi tower in world but NOT offically until its opened. its surpassed 322.5m Q1 by 15.5m.
> Q1 was completed in 2005, so i guess sometime this year 2011 will handover the title to Torch. then i think 2012 will be 414m Princess towers turn. then 2015 its 516m pentominuim!!


The Torch will be the tallest residential tower in the World. :cheers:


----------



## Rider

Mistermark's plan is the only one with a shot of yielding some kind of a result even if it is just a behavioural change. 

Developers are aware that the legal system is unreliable and time consuming and this just encourages them to rip people off knowing that most will tolerate it as they have no protection from the Government. In lawless societies people commit crimes - because they can. With over 600 apartments there will be most likely be some owners from certain countries who won't think twice about employing 'alternative' ways of disputing the practices of the developer.


----------



## Anjam

Mistermark, do you still own a property in The Torch?


----------



## Mistermark

scoobudubai said:


> pity we didn't take this approach back in 2006 when it was clear that many things were amiss....however better now than never


I agree. Unfortunately at that point we didn't know how things were going to work out. In the summer of 2009, when some of us tried to terminate our agreements and received the letters saying that if we did they would keep the money, I tried very hard to get people to work with me but at that time there were some voices on this forum who said I shouldn't rock the boat and they didn't want to knock confidence in the project or the firm because they just wanted it finished. I suspect if they had known then what we know now they might have taken a different view.


----------



## Rider

The Point Owners Association AGM is today. I'm very interested in the outcome as it will give us a real insight into what we may face 12 months from now. 

They are the pathfinder and we are on the same road just 12 months behind them with Bay Central lagging behind us.


----------



## foxy

Well I am doing 2 things. 1) I am going to wait till Friday before signing anything and 2) I will be sending an eMail to Mr Galiati asking him why he seems so powerless to control Select.


----------



## scoobudubai

FARHAN et al v. TORCH SELECT LIMITED et al
Share | Plaintiffs: SAAD FARHAN and MUZAIN ALYASH 
Defendants: TORCH SELECT LIMITED and SELECT PROPERTY GROUP, LTD. 

Case Number: 2:2010cv00812 
Filed: February 17, 2010 

Court: New Jersey District Court 
Office: Newark Office 
County: Middlesex 
Presiding Judge: Judge William J. Martini 
Referring Judge: Magistrate Judge Claire C. Cecchi 

Nature of Suit: Contract - Other Contract 
Cause: 28:1332 Diversity-Breach of Contract 
Jurisdiction: Diversity 
Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff


----------



## 234sale

^^ So true,, just a shame you have to go through the process..

DEVELOPERS DO LOSE IN COURT.. oops caps lock was on


----------



## FWIW

scoobudubai said:


> FARHAN et al v. TORCH SELECT LIMITED et al
> Share | Plaintiffs: SAAD FARHAN and MUZAIN ALYASH
> Defendants: TORCH SELECT LIMITED and SELECT PROPERTY GROUP, LTD.
> 
> Case Number: 2:2010cv00812
> Filed: February 17, 2010
> 
> Court: New Jersey District Court
> Office: Newark Office
> County: Middlesex
> Presiding Judge: Judge William J. Martini
> Referring Judge: Magistrate Judge Claire C. Cecchi
> 
> Nature of Suit: Contract - Other Contract
> Cause: 28:1332 Diversity-Breach of Contract
> Jurisdiction: Diversity
> Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff


Scoob - what happened after the filing?


----------



## Rider

How was a breach of contract case able to get heard in the States? It doesn't even sound like mis-selling, just plain old breach of contract.


----------



## Caribarra

I think your right it's probably not the same format however, at the bottom of my account it just says that the amount I know own them is the full amount at the end of the payment plan. This indicates to me that they want al that money irrespective of an early payment.

Now that’s a real turn and another fine profit........someone let me know if I am wrong - please. 

Thank you All.


----------



## Anjam

Caribarra said:


> I think your right it's probably not the same format however, at the bottom of my account it just says that the amount I know own them is the full amount at the end of the payment plan. This indicates to me that they want al that money irrespective of an early payment.
> 
> Now that’s a real turn and another fine profit........someone let me know if I am wrong - please.
> 
> Thank you All.


Where are you seeing this? I can't see any reference to a change in payment plan in the addendum. 

As far as I know the repayment is based on the sliding scale chart that was sent to me when I purchased and shows the full & final payment after each LPP payment.


----------



## CAJ

Caribarra said:


> I think your right it's probably not the same format however, at the bottom of my account it just says that the amount I know own them is the full amount at the end of the payment plan. This indicates to me that they want al that money irrespective of an early payment.
> 
> Now that’s a real turn and another fine profit........someone let me know if I am wrong - please.
> 
> Thank you All.


I don`t think that is correct. Clause 4.3 still allows you to pre-pay the outstanding amount as defined in Schedule 2


----------



## Impy

Please could anyone recommend me a lawyer in Dubai so that I could send the LLP Addendum to them for consultation before signing ?
PM's would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Caribarra

Hi All

Yes CAJ you are correct 4.4a does state this and seems to enable the early repayment to carry on after completion.

When they are throwing everything at you the view can a little muddy to say the least.......I will hang on for a while yet - I think.

Thank u all again.


----------



## rbuster8

has anyone managed to figure out what exactly this addenduk means for peopl who want to sell asap? It looks to me like we will have tp pay the entire amount remaining on the LPP purchase price. This is outrageous. How can Select just change the contract willy nilly entitrely ijnh their favour. This is extortion. We cannot sell/rent without their prior permission (incredulous). I have asked Select for some kind of clarification regarding these addendums but had no response. What the feck are we going to do?? I cannot believe this is happening to us! What a mess! It just continues to get worse


----------



## Dubai_Steve

rbuster8 said:


> has anyone managed to figure out what exactly this addenduk means for peopl who want to sell asap? It looks to me like we will have tp pay the entire amount remaining on the LPP purchase price.












Not sure if this contradicts schedule 11 at the end of the original agreement which contains a form of prepayment notice which allow for over payments or early settlement at a reduce figure per the LPP pre-payment table. After submitting this notice with payment, the seller must give a revised payment schedule or confirm full satisfaction of buyers obligations.

However, should Torch Select sell on the LPP (allowed under the addendum and looking likely) then this schedule 11 may be invalid as it is directed to Torch Select specifically. However, the financial entity taking over the LPP may also allow for over payments or early payments but this is not guaranteed.


----------



## ab31

torchowner said:


> Following the expose' in the March 20th edition of the Mail On Sunday regarding the dealings of Select Property in the UK, journalist Tony Hetherington is now looking into the dealings of both Select Property and the Select Group in the UAE.
> If you have bought a property through either, or both of these companies , and feel that you have been misled, lied to or simply not received what you paid for thenTony would like to hear from you.
> In the first instance please write to;
> Tony Hetherington,
> Financial Mail,
> 2, Derby Street,
> London, W8 5TS


At the Owners Association meeting last night at the Point, Paul Brady, a director of Select, was able to vote himself onto the board of the OA.
We wanted a shepherd, we have got a wolf guarding the flock.
This is a director of the company who sold the building to buyers using dubious sales techniques, delivered poor quality, side stepped the snagging issues and provided rip off services. Now they have attatched themselves to the owners like a leach.
Select have done it to us at the Point and, having proven the method, will now inflict the same at the Torch.
If you agree with what I have said here, or feel the same is happening to you, then write to Tony Hetherington now.
Dubai government needs to act to clean up the real estate business which suffers from lack of comsumer protection.
If the message is sent out ' Don't buy in Dubai ' then maybe the government would want to step in.


----------



## Rider

ab31 said:


> At the Owners Association meeting last night at the Point, Paul Brady, a director of Select, was able to vote himself onto the board of the OA.
> We wanted a shepherd, we have got a wolf guarding the flock.
> This is a director of the company who sold the building to buyers using dubious sales techniques, delivered poor quality, side stepped the snagging issues and provided rip off services. Now they have attatched themselves to the owners like a leach.
> Select have done it to us at the Point and, having proven the method, will now inflict the same at the Torch.
> If you agree with what I have said here, or feel the same is happening to you, then write to Tony Hetherington now.
> Dubai government needs to act to clean up the real estate business which suffers from lack of comsumer protection.
> If the message is sent out ' Don't buy in Dubai ' then maybe the government would want to step in.


If the other board members have no connection with Select, why can't they just outnumber Brady when it comes to voting?

Could you tell us what else was decided at the meeting? Are you stuck with them for another 12 months?


----------



## scoobudubai

FWIW said:


> Scoob - what happened after the filing?


Case was moved to Dubai.
More details next week


----------



## FWIW

ab31 said:


> At the Owners Association meeting last night at the Point, Paul Brady, a director of Select, was able to vote himself onto the board of the OA.
> We wanted a shepherd, we have got a wolf guarding the flock.
> This is a director of the company who sold the building to buyers using dubious sales techniques, delivered poor quality, side stepped the snagging issues and provided rip off services. Now they have attatched themselves to the owners like a leach.
> Select have done it to us at the Point and, having proven the method, will now inflict the same at the Torch.
> If you agree with what I have said here, or feel the same is happening to you, then write to Tony Hetherington now.
> Dubai government needs to act to clean up the real estate business which suffers from lack of comsumer protection.
> If the message is sent out ' Don't buy in Dubai ' then maybe the government would want to step in.


Unbeleivable - so the Fox is now inside and guarding the hen house?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Dubai_Steve said:


> Not sure if this contradicts schedule 11 at the end of the original agreement which contains a form of prepayment notice which allow for over payments or early settlement at a reduce figure per the LPP pre-payment table. After submitting this notice with payment, the seller must give a revised payment schedule or confirm full satisfaction of buyers obligations.
> 
> However, should Torch Select sell on the LPP (allowed under the addendum and looking likely) then this schedule 11 may be invalid as it is directed to Torch Select specifically. However, the financial entity taking over the LPP may also allow for over payments or early payments but this is not guaranteed.


*MANUTD, did your lawyer check out this issue for The Point?*


----------



## hawki

thetorch said:


> Hi Foxy
> 
> I have had exactly the same addendum and SPP and I have already wrote back to Mr Brady refusing to sign this version of the First Addendum, for the following reasons;
> 
> 1) I will not sign a Buyer's Release of any further responsibility by Select Property. The developer continues to have responsibility under warranties.
> 
> 2) After employing Louise's company as my snagging company and carrying out snagging back in September, approved and signed by the Project Architect in October last year, to my (or Louise's) knowledge, nothing on the list has been addressed. Furthermore, my snagging company is not allowed access to check on progress!!
> 
> 3) Select Property have no legal rights to implement any Addendum to the Sale of Purchase Agreement, unless both Buyer and Seller agree, as per section 18.4 “No variation of this Agreement shall be valid unless it is in writing and signed by each of the parties or their authorised representatives.”
> 
> 4) I have had no letter in writing on letter headed paper, advising me of completion, which is in breech of compliance of the Agreement.
> 
> 5) We have had no signed proof issued that the Project Architect has signed off the building, which I have requested.
> 
> 6) We have had no signed proof that RERA have signed off the building, which I have requested.
> 
> If anyone is considering signing these Addendums, particularly if it releases the Seller from any further obligations, they must be ****ing stupid!
> 
> I certainly won't be doing this and if they refuse to give me the keys, I will start charging them rent on my apartment through my rental company that I will create, as they are effectively then in breech of contract under sections 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4, whereby they MUST handover the property between 20 and 30 days after completion announcement, assuming the Buyer has met all his obligations under the original contract.
> 
> There, this is clear cut, don't sign it, but continue to meet your obligations and make the final payment. That way, you have met all your obligations under the contract and Select Property have no rights to with hold keys. If they do, I suggest you can sue them for damages incurred, including loss of rental income.
> 
> The Torch


I have been reading this forum since investing into this project and i must say that this post is probably the clearest most sensible thing ive read to date!!! Who do Select think thay are- I for one am tired of their constant greedy attitude , please dont sign away your rights!


----------



## ab31

Rider said:


> If the other board members have no connection with Select, why can't they just outnumber Brady when it comes to voting?
> 
> Could you tell us what else was decided at the meeting? Are you stuck with them for another 12 months?


So long as Select own a number of units, or , have the votes given to them when people sign the addendum , you will be stuck with Brady or some one similar on the OA.
One of the highlights of the meeting was when a sizeable leak suddenly appeared through the ceiling causing a large pool of water.
Selects answer to these on-going problems is that they have all developed since handover, [ yeah right ].
One good point, Brady is having to work with a bunch of people who hate the sight of him, and we are gaining in numbers all the time. His working conditions with us leave a lot to be desired. Perhaps we can hold the next meeting in our leaking pumproom.
We did make it clear we are no longer prepared to put up with sky high service charges and crap suppliers. We are going to have a long, hard fight on our hands.
Sadly guys, all this crap is coming your way.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

hawki said:


> I have been reading this forum since investing into this project and i must say that this post is probably the clearest most sensible thing ive read to date!!! Who do Select think thay are- I for one am tired of their constant greedy attitude , please dont sign away your rights!


What happens if you don't sign and fail to complete before 30 days of receiving the notice as per the original contract signed? MANUTD said his expensive lawyers advised that you have to sign or loose your apartment. I am worried that by not signing we would loose all right to our property before having a chance to go to court or whatever. Also note that DEWA and air con will be shut off from your apartments from 1st May so you may get condensation build up / mold etc. if left for months on end empty without power.

As for the proposed press campaign, I am not sure how that will get select from dropping or modifying the addendum in a matter of weeks.

The court case filed is interesting and may prove a test case if successful but could be a long way off yet?

ps. I am hoping the leaks that the point suffered from will not happen with the Torch as they had much more time to sort problems out with the torch and we even know that some apartments have been cleaned since original inspections. 

With the point they did inspections in March/April and handed over on 1st June. Power was only connected 1 week before handover. The Torch inspections were in August and has had DEWA since December.


----------



## Psofos

foxy said:


> Well I am doing 2 things. 1) I am going to wait till Friday before signing anything and 2) I will be sending an eMail to Mr Galiati asking him why he seems so powerless to control Select.


I sent a letter to Mr. Galiati but never got a response!
Psofos.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

He won't reply as he does not know what to reply.


----------



## Mistermark

hawki said:


> I have been reading this forum since investing into this project and i must say that this post is probably the clearest most sensible thing ive read to date!!! Who do Select think thay are- I for one am tired of their constant greedy attitude , please dont sign away your rights!


I would agree - IF the legal system in Dubai was up to recovering your losses. Since it isn't, I fear the only solution is to create such a stink in the UK media that the Dubai government pays the developer a little visit...


----------



## Mistermark

Dubai_Steve said:


> What happens if you don't sign and fail to complete before 30 days of receiving the notice as per the original contract signed? MANUTD said his expensive lawyers advised that you have to sign or loose your apartment. I am worried that by not signing we would loose all right to our property before having a chance to go to court or whatever. Also note that DEWA and air con will be shut off from your apartments from 1st May so you may get condensation build up / mold etc. if left for months on end empty without power.
> 
> As for the proposed press campaign, I am not sure how that will get select from dropping or modifying the addendum in a matter of weeks.
> 
> The court case filed is interesting and may prove a test case if successful but could be a long way off yet?


Every owner will have to make their own decisions re the addendum but personally I think you may as well sign it. Currently the developer has possession of almost all of the purchase price of the apartments, plus the apartments themselves. The only way to get the keys is to sign. So sign.

The black ops PR campaign will not get rid of the need to sign the addendum. However, if enough of us participate, it will bring about a state of affairs under which the Government of Dubai tells the developer how it can and cannot behave going forward, including telling it not to rely on the addendum.

As for the court case, it has been moved to Dubai. 'Nuff said.


----------



## torchowner

hawki said:


> I have been reading this forum since investing into this project and i must say that this post is probably the clearest most sensible thing ive read to date!!! Who do Select think thay are- I for one am tired of their constant greedy attitude , please dont sign away your rights!


God almighty with a voracious appetite for your money as they can get away with anything.hno:


----------



## MANUTD

Dubai_Steve said:


> *MANUTD, did your lawyer check out this issue for The Point?*


I had a customer for my POINT property BUT SELECT WOULD NOT transfer LTPP -- LOSt MY CUSToMER THEN _ but still rented out !!


----------



## ramzy

MANUTD said:


> I had a customer for my POINT property BUT SELECT WOULD NOT transfer LTPP -- LOSt MY CUSToMER THEN _ but still rented out !!


Does that mean you could not sell it?


----------



## NickBoyC

All,

Signing these addendums and losing voting rights is one thing as far as I'm concerned. What I would like clarification on is being on the LPP is if I sign these addendums and in another years time I have the funds to pay off what I believe to be the settlement figure after say 6 years of being on the LPP are Select Group going to tell me I ower them the figure that they would have received as if I continued the payment plan for the entire 15 years.

It's like taking out a 25 year mortgage here in the UK. Paying it off after two years and the bank says, 'hang on you owe us the next 23 years interest to settle this'. 

What's the thoughts on this? This would be a reason for me not sign. What are our options for getting a Dubai based mortgage and getting this paid up now? In theory negating the need to sign at least one of the addendums.


----------



## ab31

Dubai_Steve said:


> What happens if you don't sign and fail to complete before 30 days of receiving the notice as per the original contract signed? MANUTD said his expensive lawyers advised that you have to sign or loose your apartment. I am worried that by not signing we would loose all right to our property before having a chance to go to court or whatever. Also note that DEWA and air con will be shut off from your apartments from 1st May so you may get condensation build up / mold etc. if left for months on end empty without power.
> 
> As for the proposed press campaign, I am not sure how that will get select from dropping or modifying the addendum in a matter of weeks.
> 
> The court case filed is interesting and may prove a test case if successful but could be a long way off yet?
> 
> ps. I am hoping the leaks that the point suffered from will not happen with the Torch as they had much more time to sort problems out with the torch and we even know that some apartments have been cleaned since original inspections.
> 
> With the point they did inspections in March/April and handed over on 1st June. Power was only connected 1 week before handover. The Torch inspections were in August and has had DEWA since December.


Some interesting points here but remember Select have allowed no further snagging since the initial one back in September.Is this because they have done nothing about the outstanding issues?
Don't presume that because the water has been turned on for months that Select/DCE have bothered to test for leaks.
If your apartment is empty and the one above you is occupied then get your apartment checked regularly to see what is leaking through the ceiling or growing on the walls.
At the Point there is no waterproofing below the floors or behind the walls.
As the Torch is also built by DCE why should it be any different?
You were told the same stories as we were, the 5 star finish, the top of the range appliances etc.The reality is that your standards seem to be virtually the same as the Point.
As for going to the press you are quite right in saying nothing can be done before you are faced with the decision regarding the addendum.
Your problems will not end when you get your keys.Select will continue to extract money from you at every opportunity.
Regardless of what you do about the addendum, don't let Select get away with it .The more of you that write to Tony Hetherington, the more chance we have of him grasping the true picture and driving a stake into the heart of the vampire that is Select


----------



## MANUTD

ramzy said:


> Does that mean you could not sell it?


Correct, could have sold it twice if SELECT GROUP would have swpped LTPP to another person - as it happens my circumstances have changed and I dont have to sell now -- but SG to my mind could have made it easier to sell my apartment at the time and chose not too !


----------



## Rider

NickBoyC said:


> All,
> 
> Signing these addendums and losing voting rights is one thing as far as I'm concerned. What I would like clarification on is being on the LPP is if I sign these addendums and in another years time I have the funds to pay off what I believe to be the settlement figure after say 6 years of being on the LPP are Select Group going to tell me I ower them the figure that they would have received as if I continued the payment plan for the entire 15 years.
> 
> It's like taking out a 25 year mortgage here in the UK. Paying it off after two years and the bank says, 'hang on you owe us the next 23 years interest to settle this'.
> 
> What's the thoughts on this? This would be a reason for me not sign. What are our options for getting a Dubai based mortgage and getting this paid up now? In theory negating the need to sign at least one of the addendums.


You'll need to move fast if you want this to happen. The notice of completion documents were all backdated to 31 March even though we didn't get them until mid April. I imagine they will hold you to 30 April as 30 days notice. 

If you can do it within the next few days then Select should in theory issue you with a revised statement of account and you'd then be in the same position as SPP buyers in that only one addendum should apply.

I think you could still follow the same approach even after signing the second addendum. If the SPA provides for early settlement of the entire capital amount then the second addendum should in theory become void as you would no longer be on the LPP and would be in the same position as a SPP buyer. The addendum may prevent your from selling without their permission but does it prevent you from re-mortgaging and removing yourself from the LPP?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

its 30 business days, so docs have to be with them before mid may.


----------



## Sheltie

Still haven't got my couriered papers. Is anyone else still waiting?


----------



## foxy

Yep I'm waiting too.


----------



## Qasim786

What a mess, just been catching up on the previous pages. Please could anyone on a LPP help explain to me in simple English, what the heck they want from us. Do these people in Select have no mercy. I know they want to make money but there's making money and there's making money. I am trying to get out and sell up but, if I do today it looks like at a loss. Can't afford that, especially with a mortgage in the uk, a wife and a child to support.
My apartment is on the 75th floor, with great views. All I want is what I put in, anyone interested please pm me. 

Sorry I know this isn't a forum to put your apartment for sale but any help anyone can give would be extremely helpful......I am sooooooooooooooooooo Stressed.


----------



## Free Time

Dubai_Steve said:


> its 30 business days, so docs have to be with them before mid may.


Is this just the deadline for getting signed stuff and payment back to them or do we also have to physically take possession of property by then as well?


----------



## Dubai bound

we await that dark place but it could be my bathroom within the torch, that one little light in there must really be the darkest place, but suppose at least you cant see the different shade tiles on the wall or the awful grouting, some of the grout is grey some is white! not bad hey! and i wonder why they wont let us inspect before we sign and pay, could it be none of this been rectified and not likely to ever be rectified by them


----------



## scoobudubai

scoobudubai said:


> Mark Stott – Select Property
> By Rebecca Burn-Callander, published 1 yearWednesday, 10 June 2009 - 00:00:00
> ago in Leadership.
> 
> The construction industry is in freefall. Property values have tumbled. Projects all over the globe are on hold. And yet, what’s this? A property entrepreneur bucking the downturn? Surely there must be some mistake?
> 
> 
> ShareComments
> Add a comment
> Related Content
> Growing Business Awards judging day: Entrepreneur of the Year
> Richard Branson Part 1: "UK firms must make their mark internationally!"
> Mark Stott: "Business is a bus journey"
> More from this section
> International hotspots for 2011
> A silent CEO is a dead CEO: a lesson in communication
> Who is Britain's best CEO?
> Real Business first met Mark Stott during the golden days of off-plan sales. He was holding a lavish party for Select Property at a celebrity trap in west London last year. The no-expense-spared bash was celebrating *the launch of the firm’s new Aquitania development*: *the acquisition of the islands of France and Spain in Dubai’s “The World” for £98m*.
> 
> Guests were treated to a performance from A-list songstress Kelly Rowland and Hollywood honey Hilary Swank was present via video link on a huge screen. Orlando Bloom sashayed around the room, shaking hands with dignitaries and smiling at swooning socialites. And there was even a bespoke Aquitania cocktail making the rounds. It was a terrifying shade of blue. No frills the evening was not. But eight months on, Stott admits it was a complete waste of money. “I learned so much that evening about working with celebrities,” he says, ruefully. “I’d use Kelly again but I was completely disappointed with Orlando. It was £75,000 for him to walk around the room, have a couple of drinks and then skulk off.”
> 
> Rowland cost a whopping £100,000 for her performance. Swank, who was primed to be an ambassador for the Select brand, cost “even more” admits Stott. But the Boys Don’t Cry star was struck down by a health scare and had to pull out.
> 
> It was an expensive lesson for Stott: just a few, short months later, when the Sunday Times turned up to poll Stott’s employees for this year’s Best Companies to Work For supplement, he had been forced to lay off staff. “We had just made 16 redundancies,” he says, forlornly. “It was the worst experience I’ve ever been through in my life in business.” Despite the lay-offs, Select Property came eighth in the ranking. Stott scored highest for his inspirational leadership.Real Business caught up with the Cheshire-born entrepreneur at the Select headquarters in a Wilmslow business park. It’s a pretty low-key setting for a firm founded to sell off-plan properties. Where are the flashy premises on Mayfair? The hard sell trips overseas to view show homes? The champagne on tap? During the past seven months, since the market fell off a cliff, Stott has turned his business model upside down: no dangling off-plan mansions in front of bored fat cats. Instead, he breaks down the cost of owning your own slice of the Dubai coastline into a lengthy payment plan option that “costs less than a cappuccino every day”. They are pitched at families, not playboys. And all the selling is done over the phone; low overheads, minimum fuss.
> 
> The concept is, in essence, time-sharing with equity. Rather than purchase a property outright, investors buy a “fraction” of an apartment in Dubai, Turkey, Spain and now Orlando, and pay off their chunk over a 15-year period. These properties are ready-built and the fractions broken down into two-week slots. You basically own a portion of the property that equates to a fortnight stay there every year. Select Property is still making good on former off-plan investments but this new model is integral to the firm's future. “What we’re trying to do – in a tough climate – is make property investment available to absolutely everybody,” explains Stott. “And, at £69 a month for a fully furnished, two-bedroom unit on the beach, we’ve made it ridiculously affordable. I’ve lost count of the number of properties I’ve sold to taxi drivers, to business owners, to teachers...” At the end of the investment plan, you can then sell off your share and make a killing.
> 
> “It’s a lot more reliable than the stock market,” says Stott. “Absolute worst case scenario it’s going to be worth what you paid for it. And it’s definitely a lot more fun than leaving your money in a post office account.” He says it’s a win/win model: customers get a place in the sun and Select gets a steady, guaranteed stream of cash over the next 15 years and an ever-increasing customer demographic.
> 
> This revenue model has proved the salvation of a company that should be seeing sales dying. The firm pulled in a £17m turnover last year, trousering profits of £5m. And Stott won’t be losing any ground in 2009. “I want 10,000 customers this year,” he says. “In terms of turnover, that might bring me £10m, it might bring me £50m. But this model will allow us to bring in ten times more customers than we usually do in a year. Within five years, I plan to have a quarter of a million customers.”
> 
> *Stott also maximises margins at every turn. “Because of the climate now, we buy property cheaper,” he says. “And we sell it over the phone, which takes our cost of sale down to 10 to 15 per cent. Traditionally, it’s more like 60 per cent.”*
> 
> Moving away from the off-plan strategy has also allowed the canny Stott to set up a whole raft of complimentary businesses: Select Furniture kits out all the apartments and a new cleaning company keeps them ***** and span. The opportunities are seemingly endless. “I know where these guys are going on holiday every year for the next 15 years,” he says. “I can get them great deals on flights, travel insurance, currency exchange.”
> 
> You’d be forgiven for getting déjà vu with this business model. It sounds a lot like the timeshares of old or Grant Bovey’s dream for a mini monopoly before his property firm, Imagine Homes, went bust last year. But unlike Bovey, Stott has tiny overheads: 80 per cent of the properties are sold over the phone. And Select’s apartments are second homes in the sun, not overpriced mansions in the UK.
> 
> “The Imagine Homes model encouraged people to highly leverage themselves to earn income on buy-to-let products and allow that income to fund future purchases in turn,” explains Stott. “This was similar to the Inside Track model, which would always come down like a house of cards when market sentiment changed and negative equity was quickly created. The fact is, most of our customers don’t use financing. They don’t pay over the build period or put in a minimum of 30 per cent over the first six months. This means that even with the most severe economic downturns, they are unlikely to walk away from their investment.”
> 
> However, his updated model has not been without its casualties. It’s sounded the death knell on the marketing spend. From being accustomed to blowing six grand a week on big budget PR, Stott is having to dramatically down-scale.
> 
> Salvation appeared at the end of last year in the form of Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York. “Our chairman [ex-MD of retail banking at RBS, Mike Hutchins] knows her,” says Stott. “One day I just had the phone passed over to me and this voice I immediately recognised said: ‘So you need some help out in Dubai, do you?’ We partnered with her to push her charity at an event out there. She only took one person with her, no security, none of that. She was so down to earth – especially after Orlando.”
> 
> Now, the Duchess fronts Sarah Selects, a partnership that sees the property firm auction off the occasional luxury pad to raise money for her worthy causes. It’s a great opportunity for Stott. “The Duchess took Weight Watchers from about three million to 30 million users in the US,” he says. “She’s a woman of the people over there. She could help me take this to the States, too. There are millions of people over there who only get a very short holiday period – two weeks, that’s it – and most go to the same place every year. That’s ideal for us.”
> 
> Schmoozing with starlets. Chilling with the Duchess. Not bad going for a man who says his only brush with celebrity before Select was flogging David Beckham’s Bentley. “I was a car salesman for ten years,” explains Stott, laughing.
> 
> Stott’s zero-to-hero tale is more extreme than most: “I left school after my A-Levels and sold cars for a guy called Graham Knight. But I set up my own garage when I was 20. I saved up a very small pot of money and built businesses off that. Within four years I had a bar and a restaurant, I’d invested in a florist and a marketing agency – I even had a software company.”
> 
> But every venture failed, bar the car dealership. “The car business bankrolled everything,” says Stott. “It was always the thing I wanted to get away from and the business I never saw any value in. I always thought the big ticket would be the software business or the bar. As it turned out, those just lost me £1m and the car business plugged away, bailing out the debts.”
> 
> Unsurprisingly, when Stott decided to found his next ambitious venture, Select Property, in 2004, the banks refused to cough up. “They’ve never backed me,” he says. “You always need an asset and to get an asset you need money in the first place.”* Stott turned to angel investors and raised £7m for his first property acquisition, locking them into specific projects without giving them any share of the holding company*. This is how Stott still retains 80 per cent of the business (the only other shares belong to four of the other directors).
> 
> It was a challenging time for the first-time property entrepreneur. “Dubai was probably the fastest-growing city in the world. You learned on your feet,” he says. “It’s an incredible place to do business; regulatory changes every month; the government growing; playing catch up with the speed of growth of the marketplace.” During that time, Stott sold 6,000 properties. “I bought an answering machine, plugged it in, put an ad in the Sunday Times and went home for the weekend,” he recalls. “When I came back in on Monday morning, there were 30 messages on the machine.”
> 
> Three years later, while other players in the market were exercising caution, *Stott’s appetite for risk forced him to make the high-stakes acquisition of Aquitania that could have sunk the firm without a trace – instead, it made Select Property one of the largest players on the Dubai investment property market. *In a few short years, the Cheshire-born entrepreneur has been involved in projects in Dubai, Spain and Turkey worth £1.3bn. The firm has sold £750m worth of property to date and still shows no sign of following the market into the doldrums.
> 
> But after so many busts, Stott is still endearingly baffled by his success. “It’s been the most surreal thing,” he admits, sheepishly. “The other day I was on this island four miles out to sea being photographed with all these famous people. The photographer was a guy from Ashton, not far from here. We both thought we were dreaming.”
> 
> Related articlesPaul Barry-WalshTony DeepLuke Johnson
> 
> Share| More 2 comments.
> 
> 1.mark 66 days ago.
> i bought from select and this guy and they are basically selling a lie. glossy brochures turn into building sites years late on delivery and very poor quality. he offers no after sales and tells you he is "just the sales guy". Your story is very good marketing for him but very sad for anyone sold on it! shame on you!
> 
> *2.gill 60 days ago.
> I had the unfortunate experience of working for select. what a bunch of two faced bullies they are. I slogged myself to the bone for months, working all the hours god sent only to be ousted by this despicable man's sister, the so called 'marketing director' - she was also clueless as to what marketing was, with a law background! They thrive on gossiping , bullying, and are totally self centred and egotistical. so glad to now be working with a bunch of 'real' people.*




Is this still valid?


----------



## scoobudubai

Mistermark said:


> The journey has begun:
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=76496835&postcount=26219


Fantastic. I have to do other things now, can't wait for what looks like an excellent read later on. I nearly missed it!


----------



## Sid

Mistermark said:


> The journey has begun:
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=76496835&postcount=26219



Thank you for sharing. :applause:


----------



## gerald.d

Wow.

Looks like the cats have just been introduced to the pigeons who installed the fan.

And thrown vast quantities of excrement at it.


----------



## Rider

Mistermark said:


> The journey has begun:
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=76496835&postcount=26219


Thanks Mark, that was a very insightful read. I think you have given the process of getting the developer to mend it's ways some much needed direction.


----------



## foxy

Mark. Thank you for sharing. Just adds to what we aready know about the character of Dubai Select and Mr Aslam.

Interesting that SSC gets a specific mention... Is it possible that Mr Aslam reads this site??

What's next?


----------



## MANUTD

Morrismarina said:


> I've spoken with SP in Wilmslow today regarding the Addendum. Their view is that the additional wording to clause 11.1 does NOT mean that the full puchase price has to be paid if the LPP is paid off. Their experience with The Point was that all investors paying off their LPP after signing the Addendum were able to use the balance stated in the early repayment table within their contract.
> 
> SP were quite adamant about this so on the face of it good news for all LPP holders. However my personal view is that the new clause clearly does not refer to the early repayment table and at the end of the day it is open to interpretation which is clearly not acceptable. It's what's written down what counts in law, not what somebody tells you over the phone. Whilst I trust what SP are saying my advice would be to ask SG to specifically make reference to the early repayment table within this clause if you are considering signing the Addendum.
> 
> SP agreed that it is not possible to transfer the LPP to a buyer when selling your unit after completion. It is possible before handover but not after. SP were intimating that this has always been the case and is stated in the contract, but I'm not so sure ?? I've always understood the position to be that you can sell at any time and your buyer takes over the LPP. Why it's possible before completion but not after does not make sense to me at all, but there you go.
> 
> I asked SP why the Addendum was removing investors rights to vote at the Owners Association but they had not heard anything about this.
> 
> My view is that there is no legal connection between SP and SG whatsoever. Yes SP did try give the impression they were the developer at the start. Clearly this is why they used the common name "Select". I also have photos of the original boarding round the Torch site showing "Dubai Select" no mention of "Select Group". Of course SP will say that they were named on the boarding as selling agents but in truth they know they were giving the impression they were the developer. They definitely didn't try to make it clear that they weren't......... until problems started. However comments in newspapers and the like prove nothing.
> 
> I agree with Mackie I've always found SP polite and helpful in all my dealings with them. They've certainly looked after me by selling my TT and BC units in very difficult market conditions, for which I'll always be grateful.
> 
> I do personally feel the Addendum issue is not fair, a contract is a contract and can only be amended by the agreement of both parties, not under duress by using blackmail tactics. I certainly wouldn't have signed my contract if these additional clauses were in it at the start and I'm sure nobody else would either. Everybody involved knows this is a scam by SG that's why they leave it until just before handover to force this issue on them.
> 
> Whilst SP have been criticised for being a little too enthusiastic with their sales practices at times, I do honestly believe they are the good guys in all this and are as much victims of SG as the investors. I personally would have no problem buying from SP again and I may well do so in the future....... just so long as SG aren't the developers.


AGREED MORRIS


----------



## Mistermark

foxy said:


> Mark. Thank you for sharing. Just adds to what we aready know about the character of Dubai Select and Mr Aslam.
> 
> Interesting that SSC gets a specific mention... Is it possible that Mr Aslam reads this site??
> 
> What's next?


Thanks Foxy and others for your kind comments.

Yes, I know that Rahail reads this forum (hi Rahail, I hope you are proud of yourself, now that your behaviour is in the public domain!). 

What's next is that I am receiving all kinds of interesting information and case studies from people who want to be part of the process I have outlined, and in approximately a week's time I will be in a position to talk about the proposed PR campaign in more detail. But initially I am looking principally for evidence of breaches of contract and insolvency.


----------



## MANUTD

Mistermark said:


> The journey has begun:
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=76496835&postcount=26219


Well done, Nothing more than you were owed though , hope they realise now that its pointless opposing my case . Might give a few more encouragement to sue SG now.


----------



## mackie1964

Mistermark said:


> Thanks Foxy and others for your kind comments.
> 
> Yes, I know that Rahail reads this forum (hi Rahail, I hope you are proud of yourself, now that your behaviour is in the public domain!).
> 
> What's next is that I am receiving all kinds of interesting information and case studies from people who want to be part of the process I have outlined, and in approximately a week's time I will be in a position to talk about the proposed PR campaign in more detail. But initially I am looking principally for evidence of breaches of contract and insolvency.


You understand that once one crosses the line, there is no going back. It will have to be all the way, right? I know you do.

All in good time my friend  Some of us still have major interests in Dubai :cheers:

@Steve; No, you are wrong, the files are for judgment day only. I have to make sure that the punch takes them totally out and I don't get any punches back.  and it does not have to do with property development only !!!

@Scoopy; it's because of people like you, group actions will never work, moan and complain too much and contribute nothing. What’s in the article above that could be remotely actionable? I give up with you for sure. :nuts:


----------



## Mistermark

mackie1964 said:


> You understand that once one crosses the line, there is no going back. It will have to be all the way, right? I know you do.
> 
> All in good time my friend  Some of us still have major interests in Dubai :cheers:
> 
> @Steve; No, you are wrong, the files are for judgment day only. I have to make sure that the punch takes them totally out and I don't get any punches back.  and it does not have to do with property development only !!!
> 
> @Scoopy; it's because of people like you, group actions will never work, moan and complain too much and contribute nothing. What’s in the article above that could be remotely actionable? I give up with you for sure. :nuts:


I'm with you 100%. They had their chance.


----------



## captain_caveman

Torch Fractional Ownership scheme: This weel I recieved my 7 days notice to pay up final installments or forgo all monies paid to date. BecauseI have been following this forum over the last four months, I am seriously concerned about any rental returns I may get over my weeks and the pissibility that management fees will shoot through the roof as well as the value of my units when they are sold on at the end of the scheme. Because I am under contractal blackmail to pay off my final installments within 7 days OR lose all monies that I have paid to dat, I feel that I am in a tricky situation mainly do i risk paying SP more monies with the hope that I MAY get something back?

What are the issues about the factional ownership concept?

It is noted that we never ever got apologies nor compensation for the scheme lateness!


----------



## propertymagnet

Mistermark,

I just love people like you. The best of luck, and all I can say is 'go get em'.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

AltinD said:


> It's nice to see construction updates posted


----------



## flashinglights

Dubai_Steve said:


>


Enlightening!

Now, Mistermark, did you manage to hold up that side of the bargain? Where's the post? :lol:


----------



## Morrismarina

Mistermark said:


> What's the latest regarding termination notices - who has withdrawn theirs, and who's letting theirs stand?
> 
> For my part, I've withdrawn mine and will be proceeding with my purchases. The principal reason for doing so is that I think the Dubai market has hit bottom, with rents not having dropped as feared when the schools closed for the summer and selling prices edging up. I considered whether to push for a refund but took the view that by the time any money would have come through, there's a risk that the market would have moved against me. Also, while there are undoubtedly units available for the OP of my Torch units or less, I don't think they would have been comparable to mine in the Torch, which are on high floors, with exceptional views.


kay:


----------



## foxy

I wonder how many here would be happy with:

1) Late delivery payment as per contract
2)The addendum for the number change only
3)Help to set up the IOA ASAP and help it to deliver a good service to the owners 
4) Wave the Oqood fee as a goodwill guesture

This REALLY is the bare minimum Mr Aslam. Don't you agree?


----------



## foxy

Oh, I further thing Mr Aslam, I would sign a "no further claim document if the 4 points I made earlier were met and if a full survey of the building was made and all recommended work done


----------



## Leshall

NEMISIS said:


> As i said in my last post which was deleted, Most SPA's with The company we all have contracts with were signed by employees of Select Property UK.
> 
> Mark Littlewood and Jillian Griffith are legal officers of the company with whom you have your legal agreements with, They were also paid employees of SP UK headed by Mark Stott.
> 
> How much evidence do you need to establish a link ?


Actually the legal officers who signed my SPA was Mark Stott and Jillian Griffett when it was Torch Select Limited


----------



## Morrismarina

Dubai bound said:


> Bearing in mind it will be difficult for LLP owners to sell for another 10 years, because seems you cant pay off, unless you pay the full term fee, first, and if Select agree to sale! then you can sell, and if you had the money to pay it off why would you be on LLP in first place
> 
> It means you would pay of all the interest for the full 15 year term, not the rolling price as in contract.
> 
> Then you would get your voting rights back, so for 10 years expect the service charge to go up every year and also LLp owners when signed agree that select can sell to any financial institution, or banking faclity, this could be anyone, even someone more greedy then select, and they would take all the Voting rights over, and I dont think it would be an High street Bank, anyone who wants to make quick cash could buy, 1 missed instalment, apartment repossessed the amendments are that one sided, and that will have a huge effect on everyone at the Torch LLP or not!
> 
> And believe its about 65- 70 % on LLP
> 
> perhaps Giles would care to come on or rahail and tell us the ratio of LLP after all it effects everyone in The Torch, but i guess we wont hear from either.
> 
> but Giles tells us he is just as innocent as us, so why would Giles not want to share any info, such as ratio and also supply a list of purchasers, so we can form a proper OA, or would you like to hide behind Data protection Giles!
> but you can at least share the ratio without breaking that, or also you could write to each purchaser and ask them if they mind you sharing the information in order to create a OA, but suppose you wont do that either!
> 
> But you are as innocent as us Giles i forgot!


To be fair SP told me this is not the case and balance quoted in the early repament table would apply, this was their experience at The Point. However the wording of the Addendum is far from clear and states full purchase price. The precedent set at The Point could change in the future (especially if the LPP is securitised and a new owner is on the scene) and that is why this clause needs to refer specifically to the repayment table. It's similar in my mind to the clause saying an investor could terminate their agreement if there was non delivery after 30 June 2009. As Mistermark discovered there was no reference to having any monies refunded within the clause and this is exactly how it was interpreted. You can bet Rahal or whoever he sells the contracts to, will be as ruthless as possible, you have to work on this basis now when dealing with this developer. I'd insist on additional wording to the clause being added before you sign, if SP refuse..... then you have your answer.


----------



## Mistermark

torchowner said:


> Dear Mark
> 
> How is this quote from letters on Dubai Select Property letterhead to prove that SP duped the investors to believe that they were the Developers:
> 
> "Q. *Who are the Developers behind The Point?*
> A. Dubai Select is the Developer of The Point"
> 
> Another letter on Select Property Member Services letterhead:
> 
> "Having reviewed the build progress of The Point with our construction partners DCE, I am writing to inform you that unfortunately the completion date of the development has been moved to ......"
> 
> It was only when the s**t was to hit the fan, SP and SG decided that it was time for SP to play the poor innocent victim and pass all blame onto SG as they were very well aware of how futile it is to sue a Developer in Dubai.
> 
> SP are guilty of lying, fraud and marketing malpractices and should be investigated by the proper authorities and along with their partners in crime, SG, investigated by the British media.


Do you have scans of these documents you can either email me ([email protected]) or post here?


----------



## torchowner

Dubai_Steve said:


> I think these rents are quite achievable. Quality of the Torch (World's tallest residential tower) is actually better than many, including Princess, Pinnacle etc. and these prices are less than its nearest neighbours eg. Marina heights. Market is also picking up now. Marina views are stunning, location is good (better than Ocean heights for example) and facilities (pool, gym etc.) are quite good. Post DEWA checks have been done unlike with the Point which was rushed.
> 
> The product may be reasonable, Select Group however are not, but that does not affect anyone renting.


Do you realize that the so called "World's tallest residential tower" has been built by a deadly combination of Select Group and DCE!!!! It is frightening to even think of the consequences when these two companies get together!!!:nuts:


----------



## scoobudubai

Mistermark said:


> Giles,
> 
> I accept I'm at a disadvantage as I've been without postal deliveries for the past two days and expect to be for a couple more, so I haven't seen the letter, albeit that someone on this forum has kindly offered to fax me his tomorrow.
> 
> That said, I am shocked that the developer is now claiming Force Majeure. As I'm sure you know, in the three and a half years or thereabouts since the project was released, no such claim has previously been made and I am not aware of any wars, earthquakes, civil insurrection or other extreme and unanticipated events that have affected construction that would meet any normal definition of Force Majeure.
> 
> I will call you tomorrow because my own position on this is quite clear: unless the developer waives the LPP instalments until completion and provides a fair settlement on top of that, I would like to cancel my purchases and receive refunds of the sums paid to date, and I will be very disappointed if a fraudulent claim of Force Majeure is used to prevent me from receiving those refunds until after 31/06/09.
> 
> As to the argument that there is no common ownership between Torch Select Limited and Select Property/Stott Group, like someone else said, I'd be interested to see proof of this. Who are the registered directors and shareholders, and if the UK or Dubai companies have any nominee directors and shareholders, who are the beneficial owners or shadow directors? I appreciate that Dubai Free Zone companies don't have to publish such details, but that doesn't mean that a company can't choose to put them in the public domain.
> 
> *I'm sure I also saw a press release or other media coverage stating that the developer was a JV between an Emirati and Mark Stott. If it emerges that he's one of the beneficial owners behind the Dubai-registered company then I wonder what sums he has drawn from that business and whether they have been declared to the Inland Revenue here in the UK, assuming he's UK domiciled*.


If Mistermark can provide further details (e.g. a scan of a newspaper article) relating to the last paragraph that would be greatly appreciated, particularly after having sold his soul to the devil


----------



## mackie1964

Morrismarina said:


> I take it that you are referring to me in your post and as being one of these "plants" as you put it.
> 
> I'm certainly not. Have a read of my post number 14768 on 20th April. If I was a "plant" what benefit would it be for me to post comments like this ??
> 
> Yes I would buy from Select Property again. It would never be off-plan again, far too risky as we've all found. It would be a completed property and in no way built or connected to Rahal Aslam or his Select Group. I can only speak as I find in that I have no gripe with Select Property at all. Others may have but I have not. My issues have been with the developer with incredibly late delivery and loss of rental income or holiday useage, intentionally fraudulent completion dates in their contracts at all developments, poor quality, a dishonest use of the FM clause, illegally rewriting contracts for those on the LPP by blackmail tactics, etc.etc. Their business model is based on ripping people off.
> 
> Think about it, would I be saying the above if I were an SP plant ??


OOOOOOOOOOps, I might as well come clean here. I am the Plant, planted by SP/SG to fool Scoopy the girl from Hell.

We knew all along that the building was going to finish 2011 but we purposly written the contracts with an early completion so I can take some more money from Steve and Foxy .... :runaway:

F$£%^&ng Morons hno: People are entitled to different opinion and they are usually the decent folk …. From experience


----------



## Mistermark

scoobudubai said:


> If Mistermark can provide further details (e.g. a scan of a newspaper article) relating to the last paragraph that would be greatly appreciated, particularly after having sold his soul to the devil


When I posted that message, I was desperately trying to find evidence that Mark Stott/SP were part of SG. I failed. You claim they are linked; in fact you have just quoted from what you claim is a press release demonstrating that the link exists. If it does - please, please, either post a scan here or email it to me.


----------



## mackie1964

torchowner said:


> Dear Mark
> 
> How is this quote from letters on Dubai Select Property letterhead to prove that SP duped the investors to believe that they were the Developers:
> 
> "Q. *Who are the Developers behind The Point?*
> A. *Dubai Select is the Developer *of The Point"
> 
> Another letter on Select Property Member Services letterhead:
> 
> "Having reviewed the build progress of The Point with our construction partners DCE, I am writing to inform you that unfortunately the completion date of the development has been moved to ......"
> 
> It was only when the s**t was to hit the fan, SP and SG decided that it was time for SP to play the poor innocent victim and pass all blame onto SG as they were very well aware of how futile it is to sue a Developer in Dubai.
> 
> SP are guilty of lying, fraud and marketing malpractices and should be investigated by the proper authorities and along with their partners in crime, SG, investigated by the British media.


Dubai Select LLC; different company according to SP/SG. I have the same letter 

It's very important if you were to follow any course of action to stick to facts and actionable evidences. This is the main reason I have withdrawn from group actions in the past. I used to get PMs and emails from people copying other people's details and unsubstantiated allegations and I also read some of the letters they were sending to SC/SP, they were shocking.

You can moan and shout here all you can and attack people that can really help but show us some real useable information and you will be amazed what I can post on here if the Mod let me.

The Plant


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Dubai bound said:


> remember people on the LLP a 2 Bed is a 300,00 GBP apartment.


The 2 beds are actually about £185,000 the rest is interest payable over a 15 year term (similar to a mortgage).



Dubai bound said:


> 1 missed instalment, apartment repossessed the amendments are that one sided


Hasn't that always been the case from the original agreement? Again similar to a UK mortgage except payments here are made quarterly rather than monthly. Has anything changed in this respect?



Dubai bound said:


> Steve you not a salesman by any chance are you!


No, I am a computer scientist and theoretical quantum physicist.


----------



## scoobudubai

Mistermark said:


> When I posted that message, I was desperately trying to find evidence that Mark Stott/SP were part of SG. I failed. You claim they are linked; in fact you have just quoted from what you claim is a press release demonstrating that the link exists. If it does - please, please, either post a scan here or email it to me.


I have so many communications from Dubai Select in the eary days...but again so do many others I'm sure.

As you betrayed everyone in the forum in 2009 by saying you were proceding with your purchases given it was the ideal thing to do (a BIG lie, made as a result of a clause in your special outrageous written agreement with Select to get your money back...my god hearts dropped when we saw that in your revelations..Select demanding you to LIE in this forum, so that you could get your money!), I don't know what to say about what you are trying to achieve now apart from personal gain (which is fine! but only in some morally correct sense if it exists) with your recent revelations. Am looking forward to the 'stink' you claimed you are going to create in the media, but really doubt it will happen, you will get what you want before that happens, in the meantime unwitting people are sending you confidential information I imagine. You claimed you were a journalist, me too in my old school rag...

There was no 'consensus' on the forum as you claimed for 2009, just one person said 'don't rock the boat', in any case the forum is generally anonymous...look at the first 'Caveman' posting by Select in the last few days saying they were given 7 days to pay otherwise they would lose all their money, striking fear 

Lets move on.


----------



## Mistermark

scoobudubai said:


> I have so many communications from Dubai Select in the eary days...but again so do many others I'm sure.
> 
> As you betrayed everyone in the forum in 2009 by saying you were proceding with your purchases given it was the ideal thing to do (a BIG lie, made as a result of a clause in your special outrageous written agreement with Select to get your money back...my god hearts dropped when we saw that in your revelations..Select demanding you to LIE in this forum, so that you could get your money!), I don't know what to say about what you are trying to achieve now apart from personal gain (which is fine! but only in some morally correct sense if it exists) with your recent revelations. Am looking forward to the 'stink' you claimed you are going to create in the media, but really doubt it will happen, you will get what you want before that happens, in the meantime unwitting people are sending you confidential information I imagine. You claimed you were a journalist, me too in my old school rag...
> 
> There was no 'consensus' on the forum as you claimed for 2009, just one person said 'don't rock the boat', in any case the forum is generally anonymous...look at the first 'Caveman' posting by Select in the last few days saying they were given 7 days to pay otherwise they would lose all their money, striking fear
> 
> Lets move on.


Whatever you say, John.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

234sale said:


> In this market no way.. 10K less on all prices
> 
> Come on, it's a new building and the market is flooded
> 
> Hundreds of rentals will be available at once..
> 
> FYI Burj Khalifa is only 120K for a 2bed


Maybe 5k to 10k less. Imre found one at 5k less and I would be happy with 95k rather than 105k in this market.


----------



## mackie1964

Dubai_Steve said:


> The 2 beds are actually about £185,000 the rest is interest payable over a 15 year term (similar to a mortgage).
> 
> 
> 
> Hasn't that always been the case from the original agreement? Again similar to a UK mortgage except payments here are made quarterly rather than monthly. Has anything changed in this respect?
> 
> 
> 
> *No, I am a computer scientist and theoretical quantum physicist*.


And an international property tycoon, don't forget :banana:


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ not doing well in that one unfortunately

1 hit by a hurricane with FM claim. Another 3 years late with a silly addendum and idiots for developers. Another 2 in legal action for recovery of money 

I learnt my lesson now and would only invest for cash flow not capital gains in future. :bash:


----------



## Mistermark

Dubai_Steve said:


> I learnt my lesson now and would only invest for cash flow not capital gains in future. :bash:


I'm with you 100%. And it's worth bearing in mind that only completed units generate cash flow. Off-plan is not cash-generative, and also bears risks if located in countries where the legal and regulatory environment does not function as it should.


----------



## captain_caveman

i work for the nHS, not select and am on the fractional ownership scheme and i been told to pay final installment within 7 days or forego the scheme. I believe i was misled about this scheme from the start regarding rental returns and investment, so not convinced about the the rentable achievements of this scheme now nor the value of the scheme costs. in all i got to pay 1100 within 7 days or lose all my 6300 i already paid.


----------



## RedWayne28thfloor

*torch inspection before handover*

Is it true that after your snagging last year you have not had the opportunity to reinspect your apartments before handover?


----------



## Morrismarina

Torchowner has made a valid point. This Q & A sheet sent out with contracts does indeed state the developer being Dubai Select LLC. If this is not SP then clearly there was an intention to mislead as the selling agent (SP) were using the same common name "Dubai Select" as the developer (SG). Totalling different legal entities but it's reasonable to uphold that there was an intention to deceive here. 

Presumably Select Group were previously know as Dubai Select LLC ?? I'm not so sure. If they've always been Select Group then the intention to deceive is even clearer.










Here's the first photo I took of the Torch site back in Feb'06.


----------



## Morrismarina

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ not doing well in that one unfortunately
> 
> 1 hit by a hurricane with FM claim. Another 3 years late with a silly addendum and idiots for developers. Another 2 in legal action for recovery of money
> 
> I learnt my lesson now and would only invest for cash flow not capital gains in future. :bash:


Can I suggest you're wrong Steve. I'm sure that you were like me also investing for cashflow on the basis that TT would be completed in June 2008 or at the very latest 12 months later and you'd be picking up some decent rentals returns. 

Unfortunately if we *had* been investing purely for capital gains we may have sold up in 2008 and took a decent profit. Sadly we were both in it for the long term. 

We should have had 3 years rental income under our belts by now and current prices would as we were long term investors be irrelevant.


----------



## chelseaboy

ab31 said:


> Yes, we are still stuck with Select - Paul Brady is now on the OA. Luckily he can be outvoted by the other members.


OH dear thats a shame. Especially after all the hard work sara and the others have been doing for our benefit(the owners). Keep the point forum going strong its a great way of keeping up to date with whats going on. i,m sure we will eventually gain control of our building and turn things around. Keep up the good work.


----------



## ab31

chelseaboy said:


> OH dear thats a shame. Especially after all the hard work sara and the others have been doing for our benefit(the owners). Keep the point forum going strong its a great way of keeping up to date with whats going on. i,m sure we will eventually gain control of our building and turn things around. Keep up the good work.


Actually this forum is not a great way of keeping up to date with what's going on. 2 members of the OA were banned for life from this forum for putting the true state of affairs at The Point over and above ROI.Ironic that they were trusted to be on the OA, gave up their time to be on the OA, yet were gagged from posting the information about what the OA were doing/achieving that you and others would have found useful!!


----------



## RedWayne28thfloor

ab31 said:


> Actually this forum is not a great way of keeping up to date with what's going on. 2 members of the OA were banned for life from this forum for putting the true state of affairs at The Point over and above ROI.Ironic that they were trusted to be on the OA, gave up their time to be on the OA, yet were gagged from posting the information about what the OA were doing/achieving that you and others would have found useful!!


You must do what we have done with bay central and form your own website so you can post the truth, the facts and the current state of play without any interference or threats


----------



## 234sale

Please stay within our rules

forum rules


----------



## Imre

234sale said:


> In this market no way.. 10K less on all prices
> 
> Come on, it's a new building and the market is flooded
> 
> Hundreds of rentals will be available at once..
> 
> *FYI Burj Khalifa is only 120K for a 2bed*


Thats not true, you will not find any 2 BR's there for 120K , thats the price for a 1 BR only..

Just think about , service scharge is 50dhs/sqft /year , smaller one is 2 BR+study which is 1639 sqft so the service charge is 82.000 dhs/year , the bigger one is 2 Br+maids 2056 sqft ans the service charge is 103.000 dhs/year .. so what left if the rent is 120K ?

I dont think so that any owners of Burj Khalifa need that small income.


----------



## 234sale

I do know imre,, I do know.. 

Anyone with a pc can check Dubizzle..

120K is a 2 bed,, slip of the keyboard 


Actually anyone can be an agent with PC access, just make sure the price is good and off you go..


----------



## Imre

Noooo 2 BR available for 120K in Burj Khalifa .. I checked the dubizzle but nothing


----------



## Dubai bound

Steve LPP is nothing like a UK mortgage, Firstly UK mortgage would not change its Criteria midterm,5years in, would not be allowed to anyway, Governing rules would apply! Secondly you can sell and not have to pay up all the remaining term interest> its OK SP saying this is not the case, but it is to loose in the amendment, and contracts as any solicitor will tell you, can be interpreted a number of ways, which is why any legal contract needs to be watertight, but seems even the SPA is worded so loosely, which is why lawyers letter that SP provided on Fm back in 2009 say in there opinion! and also you dont have to supply the UK mortgage company with full details of a possible tenant if you rent, or full details of a possible future buyer to see if they agree< and you also pay your mortgage of from the sale proceeds< something that cant be done if amendments signed, you have to pay them first then they might agree to the sale and also a uk mortgage would not want your voting rights< and would not be interested in extracting service charges from you, So all in all nothing like a UK Mortgage


----------



## propertymagnet

Dubai_Steve said:


> I thought chiller charges are paid by the tenant?
> 
> Time place charges are 13dhs sq ft does that include chiller charges?


Yes they bunged the both together, we paid separateley in the early months and then they lumped both payments together, and it actually ended up being the same more or less.


----------



## Mistermark

Thanks 234Sale for the new thread - very helpful .

Rahail, read and learn my friend, read and learn .


----------



## foxy

Thanks 234Sale it's actually better if all of Selects victims have a common thread. 
Another thought for those on Torch LPP, if you need Selects approval when you get a tenant, will they charge you an admin fee?


----------



## Sid

*SPP - First Variation Addendum*

Re Buyers Release (clause #3)

Can somebody put it in layman terms what this clause means practically?

Thanks


----------



## ramzy

Hi All

I enquired via SG about the OQOOD fees breakdown and this is what I got back today. 

On 25 Apr 2011, at 07:07, "Fareed Ahmed" <[email protected]> wrote:

Thank you for your email,
Please find bellow the answers for your queries.

1) I am not aware from where you got this amount but I would like to
inform you that AED. 3,000 are for Oqood administration charges for DLD
and developer. Developer is allowed by DLD to take up to AED. 5,000 from
customer (even other developers are charging AED. 5,000 from customers)
but as we believe our all customers are valued customers so management
approved to take only AED. 3,000 and these are implemented since late
2008.

2) Once all the Torch apartment will be handed over then we will apply
for Title Deeds for all customers as per the DLD instructions. We are
charging AED.390 in our Final SOA which is for title deed and 1% which
you paid is for only registration fee.

There are not any other charges except those we mentioned in our Final
Statement of account (part of the Handover Pack).

Let us know if you need more info/have any further query in this regard.

Kind Regards
Fareed 

Having read my OQOOD receipt I got in 2008 and the info posted on Clyde and co website( google OQOOD Clyde) I can see how the 390 aed comes into play and customer needs to pay this for first registration, but not the aed 3000. Sounds like SG want to pass this cost onto customer. 

Thoughts?


----------



## 234sale

I wanna put all non-related to construction items in here.. Imre or I will update the threads, please use here only.. Yes it will be a mix of different projects


----------



## shakka

ramzy said:


> Hi All
> 
> I enquired via SG about the OQOOD fees breakdown and this is what I got back today.
> 
> On 25 Apr 2011, at 07:07, "Fareed Ahmed" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for your email,
> Please find bellow the answers for your queries.
> 
> 1) I am not aware from where you got this amount but I would like to
> inform you that AED. 3,000 are for Oqood administration charges for DLD
> and developer. Developer is allowed by DLD to take up to AED. 5,000 from
> customer (even other developers are charging AED. 5,000 from customers)
> but as we believe our all customers are valued customers so management
> approved to take only AED. 3,000 and these are implemented since late
> 2008.
> 
> 2) Once all the Torch apartment will be handed over then we will apply
> for Title Deeds for all customers as per the DLD instructions. We are
> charging AED.390 in our Final SOA which is for title deed and 1% which
> you paid is for only registration fee.
> 
> There are not any other charges except those we mentioned in our Final
> Statement of account (part of the Handover Pack).
> 
> Let us know if you need more info/have any further query in this regard.
> 
> Kind Regards
> Fareed
> 
> Having read my OQOOD receipt I got in 2008 and the info posted on Clyde and co website( google OQOOD Clyde) I can see how the 390 aed comes into play and customer needs to pay this for first registration, but not the aed 3000. Sounds like SG want to pass this cost onto customer.
> 
> Thoughts?


Much appreciated Ramzy

What does DLD stand for?

Right being practical. Can we individually pay our Oqood fees direct at 1000 AED yes or no? If so what is the procedure anybody?


----------



## Sid

shakka said:


> Much appreciated Ramzy
> 
> What does DLD stand for?
> 
> Right being practical. Can we individually pay our Oqood fees direct at 1000 AED yes or no? If so what is the procedure anybody?


I thinks its a no as the OQOOD d/b is only accessible by developers.

DLD- Dubai Land Department


----------



## Joannides

i've been trying to get a straight answer to the above for days (since i had the same conversation with Fareed). my understanding is that only developers can do this as they are 'trained' to use the oqood system, whereas we aren't, so we're being charged a ripoff amount for them doing it for us

if someone can tell me otherwise, i would love to be corrected.

As it stands, i see that i have no choice but to pay up or else not be able to complete the handover as soon as possible, which will be counter-productive, seeing that we will be charged service charges from 1st May anyway...


----------



## MANUTD

foxy said:


> Thanks 234Sale it's actually better if all of Selects victims have a common thread.
> Another thought for those on Torch LPP, if you need Selects approval when you get a tenant, will they charge you an admin fee?


They havent charged me (yet)


----------



## MANUTD

Joannides said:


> i've been trying to get a straight answer to the above for days (since i had the same conversation with Fareed). my understanding is that only developers can do this as they are 'trained' to use the oqood system, whereas we aren't, so we're being charged a ripoff amount for them doing it for us
> 
> if someone can tell me otherwise, i would love to be corrected.
> 
> As it stands, i see that i have no choice but to pay up or else not be able to complete the handover as soon as possible, which will be counter-productive, seeing that we will be charged service charges from 1st May anyway...


REFUSE TO TAKE HANDOVER UNLESS IT IS READY ?-- HAVE YOU CHECKED SNAGS ARE DONETO YOUR REQUIRMENTS ?


----------



## foxy

Ramzy

Can you ask Fareed to provide the evidence that they can charge up to 5000 AED? The only mention of 5000aed I can see on the Clyde website is a NOC fee when selling.



ramzy said:


> Hi All
> 
> I enquired via SG about the OQOOD fees breakdown and this is what I got back today.
> 
> On 25 Apr 2011, at 07:07, "Fareed Ahmed" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Thank you for your email,
> Please find bellow the answers for your queries.
> 
> 1) I am not aware from where you got this amount but I would like to
> inform you that AED. 3,000 are for Oqood administration charges for DLD
> and developer. Developer is allowed by DLD to take up to AED. 5,000 from
> customer (even other developers are charging AED. 5,000 from customers)
> but as we believe our all customers are valued customers so management
> approved to take only AED. 3,000 and these are implemented since late
> 2008.
> 
> 2) Once all the Torch apartment will be handed over then we will apply
> for Title Deeds for all customers as per the DLD instructions. We are
> charging AED.390 in our Final SOA which is for title deed and 1% which
> you paid is for only registration fee.
> 
> There are not any other charges except those we mentioned in our Final
> Statement of account (part of the Handover Pack).
> 
> Let us know if you need more info/have any further query in this regard.
> 
> Kind Regards
> Fareed
> 
> Having read my OQOOD receipt I got in 2008 and the info posted on Clyde and co website( google OQOOD Clyde) I can see how the 390 aed comes into play and customer needs to pay this for first registration, but not the aed 3000. Sounds like SG want to pass this cost onto customer.
> 
> Thoughts?


----------



## MANUTD

*MISTERMARK PR CAMPAIGN*

I had good converation with Mistermark this morning and I think Rahail Aslam may just regret short changing him soon ! 

And i am certainly checking out my rights BEFORE taking handover of my apartment at THE TORCH and NOT paying service charges in advance until REAL handover -- I paid at THE POINT but NO WAY here SELECT got away with lots at THE POINT i was a little short of cash then to challenge it but not now 

SNAGGING MUST BE COMPLETED NOT LIKE IT WASNT AT MY POINT VILLA -- and one or two important issues must be clarified too -- which they know about


----------



## Dubai bound

*Completed ?*

Has anyone seen any documentation that actually shows The Torch being passed and anyone seen any confirmation certificates stating that all safety checks have been carried and out and all passed?

Ask yourself why no one can go and inspect the apartment before they sign, and why no one will offer to show any of the above certificates to its investors, they must just assume that all us, investors are stupid and desperate just to get our hands on what is rightfully ours anyway!

Come on select I know you are reading, so why not play fair and at least be forthcoming and honest, just failing to reply or let the investors know your side to the Investors genuine Queries is just not on, or at all Professional

Select you come on here to defend yourself so why not come on here, or agree to one person compiling a list of genuine queries we have, and let them post them queries and you reply to them ? is that so hard or not legimate for you to do for your Loyal investors! surely we are owed that much, if you think anything of your investors, playing the waiting game and refusing to reply is just causing so much bad feeling and hatred.

Do the right thing select and agree to this


----------



## Joannides

seems like good advice, MANUTD!


----------



## Dubai bound

The 3,000 OQOOD fee although bit of a cheek is very minor detail compared to the amendments they want signing>


----------



## scoobudubai

I hear there is a new website on the way dedicated to exposing the fraudulent practices etc of Select both in the U.K. and Dubai.


----------



## Mistermark

scoobudubai said:


> I hear there is a new website on the way dedicated to exposing the fraudulent practices etc of Select both in the U.K. and Dubai.


I'm not aware of one. However if anyone who has web design skills is willing to produce one, I'd be happy to provide them with the information, starting Friday.


----------



## foxy

If Rahail Aslam was to appear on TV being doorstepped by a reporter asking akward questions it would be well deserved. I imagine his family and friends would be interested to see how makes his money.


----------



## Dubai bound

Continued drop in Dubai residential rents

At the same time, residential rents in some of Dubai's most popular areas have dropped by around 30% in the past 12 months, according to data published this week by Dubai's Real Estate Regulatory Agency (Rera). The authority measures rental prices across the emirate, compiling a Rental Index designed to help landlords and tenants to negotiate fair contracts. In its latest report, it confirmed that apartment rents in Dubai Marina, Palm Jumeirah, Discovery Gardens, and Jumeirah Beach Residences had all seen significant declines over the last 12 months.

Moreover, these declines look set to continue for a while yet - industry experts have long warned that Dubai faces a long wait before its surplus real estate stock is absorbed. Mohamed Alabbar, chairman of Burj Khalifa developer Emaar Properties, said in November 2010 that it would take at least 20 months for the city to absorb its surplus stock; a month later Nakheel CEO Chris O'Donnell said the process could take as long as five years.

"In the residential market there is an increasing amount of new supply entering the market, and while that's a good thing for tenants and is pushing down rents, you're probably looking at 20% to 25% of the residential supply being vacant at the moment," says Plumb.

"You would expect the residential oversupply to be absorbed over the medium term, between two to three years. It won't be absorbed over the next six months, but it won't sit there vacant forever, like the office market will."


----------



## Dubai bound

"There are set payments that don't need to be made until developers get final approvals: connecting to power, connecting to sewerage, and so on," explains Plumb. "So by avoiding finishing the building, they avoid having to make utility payments and things like that. By keeping finished properties from the market, they are keeping their own costs down.

"What you'll find is that where there is a big project, a multi-tower project, the developers aren't releasing all the towers at once, but staggering the release dates."

A significant portion of the units still due to come onstream in 2011 and 2012, are in buildings where construction began before the crisis and continued because it proved cheaper for the developer to go on, than cancel and be forced to repay money to investors. 
.


----------



## Torch77

Fellow investors,

I just want to inform you that I have been following the discussions regarding The Torch and Select Group. I'm on LPP and joining the uproar against the way we have been treated by the Select Group. Please PM if there is anybody taking the lead in uniting investors.


----------



## MANUTD

Torch77 said:


> Fellow investors,
> 
> I just want to inform you that I have been following the discussions regarding The Torch and Select Group. I'm on LPP and joining the uproar against the way we have been treated by the Select Group. Please PM if there is anybody taking the lead in uniting investors.


Just make sure your snagging list is complteed BEFORE YOU ACCEPT HANDOVER -- you stand little chance after of getting it done after !!!

just worth checking size of apartment is what it says on the SPA too ?


----------



## ramzy

foxy said:


> Ramzy
> 
> Can you ask Fareed to provide the evidence that they can charge up to 5000 AED? The only mention of 5000aed I can see on the Clyde website is a NOC fee when selling.


Will try to find out


----------



## rbuster8

*WHAT IS DEFINITON OF "FULL PURCHASE PRICE" ?*

LENGTHY PAYMENT PLAN- PURCHASE PRICE?? i RECEIVED A RESPONSE TO MY QUESTION THIS MORNING FROM SASHA TAKTIKOU (HEAD OF LEGAL) DUBAI SELECT LLC EMAIL [email protected].

IF I WANT TO SELL MY APARTMENT EARLY I UNDERSTOOD THAT ACCORDING TO THE SPA SECT 11;2 "THE BUYER SHALL PAY ONE PERCENT OF THE TOTAL PURCHASE PRICE UPON EXECUTION OF THE FORM OF ASSIGNMENT BY THE SELLER" . 

SASHA'S RESPONSE WAS;
"SELLING YOUR PROPERTY TO A THIRD PARTY WILL BECOME YOUR ENTITLEMENT ONLY UPON FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT OF YOUR FINAL PAYMENT (UNDER YOUR LENGHTY PAYMENT PLAN) AS PER YOUR SALE & PURCHASE AGREEMENT), WHICH IS WHEN YOU WILL OBTAIN OWNERSHIP TITLE TO YOUR PROPERTY. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS TRUE ALSO UNDER THE CURRENT PROVISIONS OF YOUR SALE &PURCHASE AGREEMENT AS YOU MUST BECOME AN OWNER TO BE ABLE TO SELL" 

WHAT ABOUT SECT 11;2 IN THE ORIGINAL SALE AND PURCHASE AGREEMENT? IF I HAD KNOWN THAT THIS WAS THE CASE I WOULD NEVER HAVE TAKEN OUT THE LPP! WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THESE PEOPLE??


----------



## 234sale

Torch Thread now open, please use the Torch Thread for construction updates only..


----------



## Mistermark

foxy said:


> If Rahail Aslam was to appear on TV being doorstepped by a reporter asking akward questions it would be well deserved. I imagine his family and friends would be interested to see how makes his money.


Indeed. I'm working on it


----------



## MANUTD

rbuster8 said:


> LENGTHY PAYMENT PLAN- PURCHASE PRICE?? i RECEIVED A RESPONSE TO MY QUESTION THIS MORNING FROM SASHA TAKTIKOU (HEAD OF LEGAL) DUBAI SELECT LLC EMAIL [email protected].
> 
> IF I WANT TO SELL MY APARTMENT EARLY I UNDERSTOOD THAT ACCORDING TO THE SPA SECT 11;2 "THE BUYER SHALL PAY ONE PERCENT OF THE TOTAL PURCHASE PRICE UPON EXECUTION OF THE FORM OF ASSIGNMENT BY THE SELLER" .
> 
> SASHA'S RESPONSE WAS;
> "SELLING YOUR PROPERTY TO A THIRD PARTY WILL BECOME YOUR ENTITLEMENT ONLY UPON FULL AND FINAL SETTLEMENT OF YOUR FINAL PAYMENT (UNDER YOUR LENGHTY PAYMENT PLAN) AS PER YOUR SALE & PURCHASE AGREEMENT), WHICH IS WHEN YOU WILL OBTAIN OWNERSHIP TITLE TO YOUR PROPERTY. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS TRUE ALSO UNDER THE CURRENT PROVISIONS OF YOUR SALE &PURCHASE AGREEMENT AS YOU MUST BECOME AN OWNER TO BE ABLE TO SELL"
> 
> WHAT ABOUT SECT 11;2 IN THE ORIGINAL SALE AND PURCHASE AGREEMENT? IF I HAD KNOWN THAT THIS WAS THE CASE I WOULD NEVER HAVE TAKEN OUT THE LPP! WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THESE PEOPLE??


I think you can pay off the current anout owing and sell then BUT unfortunately that was why most folks took the LTPP becaise they wanted the credit --i agree its ridiculous that this can't be transferred but suspect youir hands may be tired with this - although selling in this climate at present is not good either or imposssible


----------



## Sheltie

234sale said:


> Torch Thread now open, please use the Torch Thread for construction updates only..


Still closed!


----------



## ZARO786

please read this - comes directly from the RERA 

http://www.rpdubai.ae/rpdubai/fg?f=...L4GdM4SmRuF5HOn9mBJxnwhHeHAUMf4krQQrnxON/MVs=


----------



## NickBoyC

All,
What issues are we currently facing with these two addendums if your on the LPP and we sign them.

I'm aware of the concern about the addition to clause 11.1 and about the statement of having to pay the ENTIRE purchase price if you want to settle early.

I'm aware that your signing away your voting rights on OA. Do we need clarification that these voting rights are returned to you in full once you complete on the property whether that's in two years time or after the 15 years is complete?

Any other issues / concerns with these addendums?


----------



## Sid

ZARO786 said:


> please read this - comes directly from the RERA
> 
> http://www.rpdubai.ae/rpdubai/fg?f=...L4GdM4SmRuF5HOn9mBJxnwhHeHAUMf4krQQrnxON/MVs=


Thanks ZARO786!

I wonder if Select are aware of of the existence of this doc.

A few Q's for Select:

- Are the service charges approved by RERA?
- When will they call a meeting to setup a OA?


----------



## ZARO786

Hi Sid
I have written to the developer on this very point for clarification on BOTH the service charges and Oqood fees - no reponse to date. I have now written to the Land Dept for clarification. Will post reponse once I hear anything. Also, please refer to my post 14/4 re: CEO of RERA who has informed me that I should not pay the Oqood fee and the building charges HAS to be approved by RERA. The developer should provide you with a written confirmation.

I urge all to go on Dubai Land Dept website.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

..


----------



## scoobudubai

*Termination*

I don't think there are enough people contributing to this forum.

Due to the delays, according to the SPA, Select can terminate YOUR contract at any time now with -no- provision for a refund of any description.


----------



## Poolview

Sid said:


> Its the 1st addendum for SPP buyers.


 
This is the reply I got back from Select when I asked how it would affect my rights



Please note that the addendum comes to supplement your sale and purchase agreement and not to deprive you of your rights agreed therein. The developer remains liable for a period of 12 months for MEP and 10 years thereafter for any structural defects (not just under the provisions of the SPA but also under applicable law).



All snagging reports have been considered and matters pertaining thereto have been rectified by our Project Management Team.



I trust this settles your concerns.



Regards, 









Sasha Taktikou
Head Of Legal

Dubai Select LLC
E: [email protected]


T: 00971 (4) 368 3355 
M: 00971 50 7989562
F: 00971 (4) 368 3344
W: www.select-group.ae


I think I will take this one with a pinch of Salt


----------



## slick2day

PoolView...your also giving your rights up to sue Select over the quality of the building, lateness etc


----------



## slick2day

Dubai steve

Until the LPP clauses are more specific and less ambigous you have no security. An email is not a LEGAL agreement and will not hold up to any test...My thoughts-think with the glass half empty is the best approach.

The more ambigous the contract is the more likely they are to take advantage of you further down the line.


----------



## FWIW

Poolview said:


> This is the reply I got back from Select when I asked how it would affect my rights
> 
> 
> 
> Please note that the addendum comes to supplement your sale and purchase agreement and not to deprive you of your rights agreed therein. The developer remains liable for a period of 12 months for MEP and 10 years thereafter for any structural defects (not just under the provisions of the SPA but also under applicable law).
> 
> 
> 
> All snagging reports have been considered and matters pertaining thereto have been rectified by our Project Management Team.
> 
> 
> 
> I trust this settles your concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sasha Taktikou
> Head Of Legal
> 
> Dubai Select LLC
> E: [email protected]
> 
> 
> T: 00971 (4) 368 3355
> M: 00971 50 7989562
> F: 00971 (4) 368 3344
> W: www.select-group.ae
> 
> 
> I think I will take this one with a pinch of Salt


I'm surprised that they didn't repeat the "We do not provide legal advice [to our clients]" line.

If it does not materially change anything in the SPA, then why have an addendum?

As I said before - the SPA can only be changed or amended via the addendum if both parties agree on the changes. If you don't agree, don't sign. In fact I would repeat that they have to fulfil their end of the bargain as per the original SPA.


----------



## slick2day

Well said...dont have the wool pulled over your eyes!!!!!

The changes are all one sided and in select groups favour.


----------



## FWIW

Sid said:


> Its the 1st addendum for SPP buyers.


Please look up what Completion Date actually means in your Torch contract.

I would guess that Completion Date does not equal Hand Over Date. More like handover date equals completion date Plus 30 business days (at 4 days a week for UAE).

I also don't like the way the "or the Property" is tagged onto the last line. Why have they done this? Does this limit the buyer if something is found to be wrong with the Property?


----------



## Dubai bound

*amendment*

even on the spp if you sign you are signing away any comeback to select whatever happens to the TORCH you have no comeback
Must be crazy if anyone agrees to that, you are signing to take apartment AS IS Which is there words in amendment


----------



## slick2day

Hi NickBoyC

They want to vet every tenant and be able to refuse.

If you miss a payment they can repossess without any reference to a legal process.

They take your voters rights

You have to pay the entire purchase amount from handover not the prepayment amount as per the spa.

Addendum 1- You are signing your rights away to legally challenge select in the future.
Then theres all the Oqood charges, high service charge, affection plan payments they are asking for.....RIP off merchants.


----------



## ramzy

Sid said:


> Its the 1st addendum for SPP buyers.


Surely SG want to ensure that the buyer is signing away his/her rights to claim any compensation , eg for late delivery. But if that's the case why put this clause in the addendum if they have already claimed Force Majeure....

They probably know that their FM claim won't hold and the only way to ensure they don't get taken to court is by putting this explicit clause in the addendum.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Dubai bound said:


> they have added into amendment the sale price being the full price with all the 15 years interest and not mentioned the original purchase price.


This was also the case in the original sale agreement on page 2. However, in clause 4.3 you may make 1 over payment per year (no less than 70k) or the pre payment balance under schedule 2, provided you give 30 days notice with the form in schedule 11. The total (entire) purchase price is also given in Schedule 2 on your original agreement. The pre-payment table which make up part of the agreement states that the balance to pre-pay is the amount required to FULLY satisfy the purchasers obligation under schedule 2 of the sale agreement. This has not been changed in the addendums.


----------



## RedWayne28thfloor

ramzy said:


> Surely SG want to ensure that the buyer is signing away his/her rights to claim any compensation , eg for late delivery. But if that's the case why put this clause in the addendum if they have already claimed Force Majeure....
> 
> They probably know that their FM claim won't hold and the only way to ensure they don't get taken to court is by putting this explicit clause in the addendum.


The buyers release is quite amazing. Its more and more clear we are dealing with a developer without any shame or morals its quite astounding what they try on


----------



## NickBoyC

Hi Slick2Day and others.

I've also had confirmed in email only that if you want to settle early the early repayment table still applies even with the addendums signed. I have asked for the addendum to be reworded to reflect what was in their email to me. Nothing back as yet.

Reading Dubai Steve's take on this looks like he thinks this isn't an issue anyway. Has anyone had anything in writing on letter headed paper confirming where we stand on this?

I've also asked for confirmation that the purchasers voting rights on the OA are returned upon completion. Again waiting to hear back on this one.


----------



## NickBoyC

Forgot to say regarding Chiller Charges.

I spoke to Louise at Exclusive who commented the chiller charges are quite high at 5AED per sq ft. She is doubtful considering the market that I will recover this when renting out my apartment. She went on to say that 3 or 4AED may be more reasonable but expect the tennant to negotiate an all inclusive price. I think considering everything she is likely spot on so personally I'm playing worst case that if I get a half decent annual rent that I won't see any return on the chiller charge.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

..


----------



## Dubai_Steve

..


----------



## bayvee

MANUTD said:


> For the two ? if they can handover two that is ?


Both optimists and pessimist are right. There is no "single date" of handover. It will commence on the lower floor in the west tower in Q4 with a snagging visit - customer orietnation etc. and before we are all in there and things will be in order, it will be at least mid 2012. Select will be playing this card to "straddle" the end of 2011 clause 16 risk.


----------



## FWIW

Dubai_Steve said:


> Select confirmed that the LPP tenancy agreement must be signed by all tenants even short term 2 night stays arranged through a licensed agency! Holiday makers will not want to sign this document for such simple purposes and the document specifically refers to 12 month rentals with dates of post dates cheques etc. Therefore my conclusion is that Select are actively preventing holiday rental activities for LPP buyers. Be aware by signing the addendum you may be giving up your rights (As missold by Select Property and Select Group) to enter into holiday rental usage of your property.


Thanks for getting an answer out of them. I too was told that we could do what we like in our properties even though we are on LPP.


----------



## Rider

So it would seem that LPP buyers are nothing more than tenants themselves until everything is paid.


----------



## Why Dubai

Has anyone obtained any proper legal advice yet ??


----------



## Rider

I have had a brief conversation with a lawyer. He advised me that the addendum is almost certainly unlawful. He also suggested that the courts could nullify it if they are of the opinion that one party imposed an unfair change to the contract because they were in an unfair bargaining position i.e. holding onto the keys until the addendum was signed. So it's worthwhile keeping the documentation stating that handover appointments will only be given upon receipt of the signed addendum(s). 

The trouble is getting a court to nullify the addendum will take a while as we all know.


----------



## hawki

Hi everyone
I received my documents today- posted in Dubai on 24 April, letter dated 31st March.
I am not a solicitor but these addendums really are unreasonable to say the least. What will the situation be if we don't agree to sign them? I feel blackmailed by these people and therefore we should be requesting a refund of all monies paid to date. This situation is all wrong, we signed agreements in 2005 and the transaction was sealed then Im sure there is nothing they can do should we refuse. These people are putting us all through a total nightmare, and i for one have had enough. 
I am on the LLP and requested my outstanding balance to consider paying it off. I have been sent a settlement figure which is dressed up to show a discount for early payment on the LLP!!
For this reason and having read the addendum I believe that should you wish to pay off the LLP before it runs its course they will want the whole of the interest calculated. I.e for my 2 bed half way up the building- an extra £40-£45k (calculated after a year should i sign).


----------



## Dubai_Steve

hawki, is your settlement figure different to that in the pre payment table of your sale agreement? after removing any handover charges and maintenance fees of course. Did you send in your schedule 11 form to do this?


----------



## Dubai bound

Holiday rentals will not be a option, and those on 
LLP are only tenants yourself until you paid up in full< which is why they are dangling the carrot of allowing you to rent max 12 month agreed with them contract in order for you to sign amendments! which is not what we purchased either< select gave all kinds of false info just to sell!
if you miss one payment apartment is gone and no comeback or redress of any monies paid thus far!
SPP amendment is agreement to have no redress against Select come what may!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Assuming handover can be taken without signing. Are there any negatives for not signing the 2nd variation addendums for LPP buyers at all? eg. will not be given permission to rent at all?


----------



## Dubai bound

they might not let you rent at all, if you dont sign, but remember if you do sign and they let you rent they can still reject every tenant you find resulting in the fact you might not be able to pay installmemts resulting in goodbye your apartment< and they can sell again< or do you think Select are too honest to do this ant try this one< cos sorry i dont< it would be in there interest for you not to be able to pay


----------



## Dubai Architect

I am sure I saw a link to the Select fraud website this morning. What happened to the posting? Can someone post the link?


----------



## 234sale

8 posts since 2007,, true lurker.

You probably could sell that..


----------



## Dubai_Steve

..


----------



## Dubai_Steve

I wonder if Bay Central buyers and Point owners are aware that they may not be allowed to rent on short term lets (!)

Is there some new law in Dubai that says they are not allowed now?


----------



## hawki

Dubai_Steve said:


> hawki, is your settlement figure different to that in the pre payment table of your sale agreement? after removing any handover charges and maintenance fees of course. Did you send in your schedule 11 form to do this?


Hi Steve I didn't send anything in . They have taken the figures from the original LLP table which is correct and what I expected to pay then of course added the latest Maintenance rip off fees! What I am saying though Steve is that I believe that if we sign this we will loose the right to this early settlement unless its in the addendum- a fax simply isnt good enough!!! Id settle now for a full refund !!!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

I don't think we loose the right to early settlement by signing the addendums.


----------



## FWIW

Dubai_Steve said:


> I wonder if Bay Central buyers and Point owners are aware that they will not be allowed to rent on short term lets (!)
> 
> Is there some new law in Dubai that says they are not allowed now? or is this just part of Select's imagination or poor legal training?


I only knew of this via your posts Steve! I was never really going down the holiday let path, but having it as an option was always a good option. I know some investors have made good returns on holiday lets in other buildings and swear that in a slow Market it is the way to go. Now it looks like that option is closed?


----------



## 234sale

Dubai_Steve said:


> I wonder if Bay Central buyers and Point owners are aware that they may not be allowed to rent on short term lets (!)
> 
> Is there some new law in Dubai that says they are not allowed now?


It's not allowed Steve..

I know Mohammed from mystaygroup (short term leasing on Burj Khalifa).. He has permission from the Minstery of Tourism,, but getting all requirements together is a difficult procedure..


As to an individual..

Its not officially Legal,, as its a business and requires a license..

But then is it illegal?


----------



## hawki

Dubai_Steve said:


> Some replies from Select Group legal team


Who sent you this! Im particularly interested in the statement saying its your right not to sign!! What do they mean by this


----------



## Dubai bound

Holiday lets full stop in Dubai are going to be stopped!
with millions and millions spent on new hotels they have forced the government to revise the law and you would need special permit and these apartments will not satisfy the criteria, you would be in breach of contract too!


----------



## captain_caveman

Any fractional owners having issues, PM me please


----------



## Dubai_Steve

234sale said:


> It's not allowed Steve..
> 
> I know Mohammed from mystaygroup (short term leasing on Burj Khalifa).. He has permission from the Minstery of Tourism,, but getting all requirements together is a difficult procedure..
> 
> 
> As to an individual..
> 
> Its not officially Legal,, as its a business and requires a license..
> 
> But then is it illegal?


I guess propertmagnets (Karen) business will be going down the drain then?


----------



## 234sale

^^ Dubai is full of Grey area's


----------



## Dubai bound

*Sign or not*

you do not have to sign< and for them to say otherwise is breaking the law< check that with whoever you like< and for them to say the amendments protect both sides< please someone explain where is it to our advantage except being able to rent< which is not much use if the service charges go sky high and they have to agree to whom you can rent it to!
its in there interest for you to default they have to take no legal proceedings to evict you< if you sign you agree to walk away no questions ask

Which might be OK if you were dealing with HSBC Barclays Etc but this bunch not the same they care about nothing or no one

Just ask yourself would you buy from them knowing what you know now!
because signing amendments is like entering into a new contract
why would you


----------



## Bling08

Response I received regarding the Calculating of the goodwill payment. Hardly a clear breakdown is it!!!!!


Goodwill payments have been calculated on all payments made by customers on or before 30th June 2009 and onwards LPP payments (if any) till 31-Jan-2010.

The period of calculation was from 30th June 2009 to 31st January 2010 as per our letter dated 29th January 2009 and 17th September 2009

The rate applied for the calculation was LIBOR + 1% over the period. We get the LIBOR rate from June 2009 To January 2010 month wise.

We calculate the Goodwill as per your payments received on these dates.



If you will calculate the Goodwill as per above calculation you will reach the total amount we mentioned in the SOA.



Let us know if you need more info/have any further query in this regard.



Kind Regards


----------



## Dubai bound

*goodwill*

so what happened to payments from Jan 2010 to now ?


----------



## micmonro1

*Hi*



ZARO786 said:


> Dear The Torch Investors,
> 
> I have also recently received an email confirmation from Select ......
> 
> We need to ask Select for transparency and proof on all the fees that has been levied.
> In addition, we should ask Select for an approval letter for the building charges since this has to be approved and stamped by RERA.


Hi Zaro, we seem to have asked the same questions but don't have any answers.
I want us to have contact so I am sending what I blogged so far, and I hope you can email me your thoughts. my email: [email protected].
best regards
Lily
"Everyone please follow my posts as I have posted some crucial information in the last 2 days to stand up to the crooks who are aiming to take all our rights away by signing the new addendum of the contract. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE SIGN THIS DOCUMENT. SG will pressure you and threaten that they will take your property and monies invested so far, which is not the case - it would be illegal. We waited 3 years, what harm is there to wait a little longer to fight for our rights. 
We have many options:
1) sign up to the campaign 
2) media exposure- see a very recent article from Daily Mail dated 19th March 2011 exposing the unscrupulous acts by Select and cheating fractional ownership investors in Turkey and I suggest that every individual write to the paper. 
3) Write to FSA
4) Write to Office of Fair Trading
5) Write to RERA in Dubai as they are the regaulating body who approves the service charge amongst other things (see their website on the law relating to Jointly owned property)
6) Respond to my posts or Mistermark so we can form a united action group
7) If all fails, take legal action against SP in the UK High Court

Please, please read and digest - we have legal rights and people power."


----------



## micmonro1

*please let me know where*



slick2day said:


> HI All
> 
> There are a few investors meeting on monday afternoon ( bank holiday) in central London. It would be great if you would like to meet up to discuss this matter. if so please get in touch via private message to me.
> 
> Cheers


Cheers


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Dubai bound said:


> so what happened to payments from Jan 2010 to now ?


Nobody challenged this so they went with their written offer of 6 months goodwill only.


----------



## Ben44

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...Torch’

Dont know what your all worried about, the man from Select says is is going well


----------



## Dubai_Steve

> Dubai Marks a New World Record: Select Group’s `The Torch’ at Dubai Marina is World’s Tallest Residential Tower
> 
> At 348 metres and 86 floors, `The Torch’ pips Q1 Tower of Gold Coast, Australia by 25 metres to covet the world honour
> 
> The AED 665 million (USD$182m) development has been completed and is ready for handover in May 2011 DUBAI, United Arab Emirates--(BUSINESS WIRE)--
> 
> Select Group, one of the largest private property developers in the UAE has won another distinction for Dubai with its `The Torch’ at Dubai Marina beating Q1 Tower of Gold Coast, Australia to become the world’s tallest residential tower.
> 
> “Our success story is *based on foundations of trust*, integrity and corporate governance. We have been able to continue developing in Dubai because of our high caliber of leadership supported by a team with extensive experience and skill sets.”
> 
> `The Torch’ at 348 meters (3,742 ft) at 86 floors is taller by 25 metres to its earlier rival and record holder Q1 Tower, which stands at 323 metres (1,058 ft), a statement from the Select Group said.
> 
> Commenting on the achievement, Mr. Rahail Aslam, CEO of Select Group, said: “This is a milestone for the Group and we are proud to be contributing to the list of global firsts Dubai has achieved over the years. We would like to position `The Torch’ as our tribute to this cosmopolitan city which despite the downturn in the real estate sector and fluctuations in the economy has shown resilience to weather the extreme economic downturn.
> 
> “The Torch,’ a defining landmark of Dubai Marina skyline, offering stunning views across the Jumeirah beachfront, is a sold out property and a testimony to Select Group’s continuing commitment to Dubai and the potential of its property sector as it gradually emerges from the shadows of the impact of the global financial crisis,” Mr. Aslam remarked.
> 
> The Torch’ is a purely 100 per cent residential tower unlike many mixed-use high-rise developments vying for the tallest title. A thumb rule followed by global institutions like the Emporis Standards Committee (ESC) and the Council on Tall Building and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), which monitor these records is that a building should at least have 90 per cent residential use to qualify for the tallest residential tower title.
> 
> The AED 665 million (USD$182m) `The Torch’ comprises 676 apartments and an array of modern amenities including an up-to-date gymnasium, sauna/steam room, a retail zone at the Podium level and eight levels of parking.
> 
> The project is complete and Select Group is gearing up to hand over the property to investors in May 2011.
> 
> Commenting on the Group’s continuing interests in Dubai property, Mr. Aslam said: “Our success story is based on foundations of trust, integrity and corporate governance. We have been able to continue developing in Dubai because of our high caliber of leadership supported by a team with extensive experience and skill sets.”.
> 
> He said Select Group has already delivered several completed projects which enjoys consistent occupancy rates in excess of 85 per cent. The tenancy retention rates in Select Group properties are probably one of the highest in Dubai Marina and this has been achieved through quality of construction, design, *active management* and detailed development planning from design to handover and operation.
> 
> “The competition landscape has been evolving since 2007 and changed quite significantly in 2009. Despite the difficulties faced in what undoubtedly has been the most difficult economic period any developer has faced, Select Group has diligently worked towards completion of its iconic projects in Dubai Marina,” Mr. Aslam said.
> 
> The developer is also making substantial progress to complete another three towers in Dubai Marina later this year including Bay Central, a mixed use development considered to be at the foremost location in Dubai Marina comprising two residential towers and a 5- star hotel. Select will complete the two residential towers later this year, followed by the 5-star hotel to be delivered early 2013. Further to this, ‘Botanica,’ a striking 41 storey development will also be completed in 2011. `Botanica’ is the only private residence with a botanical garden on the 27th floor, with stunning views across the Marina and Gulf Sea.
> 
> Rahail Aslam, CEO of Select Group, is featured in the Sunday Times Rich List (Photo: Business Wire)


http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...ubai-Marks-World-Record-Select-Group’s-Torch’


----------



## FWIW

Dubai_Steve said:


> http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...ubai-Marks-World-Record-Select-Group’s-Torch’


And the journo's contact details:

Contacts 

Watermelon PR
Ms. Priyanka Geriya
Dubai, UAE
Tel: +971-4-2833655
Email: [email protected]


Maybe the torch investors can give her a history lesson?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Select Group HQ


----------



## Impy

*local press*



Dubai_Steve said:


> http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...ubai-Marks-World-Record-Select-Group’s-Torch’


seems like SG are plastering the local press with this story - Emirates 24/7 is running the article too. Do not have acontact address for the journalist but we should email the paper to give them some of the scams SG are playing at ?


----------



## micmonro1

*meeting*



slick2day said:


> HI All
> 
> There are a few investors meeting on monday afternoon ( bank holiday) in central London. It would be great if you would like to meet up to discuss this matter. if so please get in touch via private message to me.
> 
> Cheers


Hi if anyone knows where the meeting is please inform me via a private message


----------



## micmonro1

*good work*



Dubai_Steve said:


> http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...ubai-Marks-World-Record-Select-Group’s-Torch’



The CEO became rich from our money, we shall see how rich he stays.


----------



## propertymate

Take a look at this - something about Select being on time with their projects!!!

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...2011/April/theuae_April823.xml&section=theuae


----------



## propertymate

Read this 'The Torch, a development by UK-BASED Select Group' :-

http://gulfnews.com/business/proper...-tower-set-to-welcome-occupants-soon-1.800497


----------



## Dubai_Steve

propertymate said:


> Take a look at this - something about Select being on time with their projects!!!
> 
> http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...2011/April/theuae_April823.xml&section=theuae


:lol:

“Since our projects are on time as we carefully manage our cash flow, buyers are happy.” said Aslam

Talk about a blatant lie. 3 years late and unhappy buyers :bash:

guess they are trying to pre-empt mistermark's campaign.


----------



## RedWayne28thfloor

Dubai_Steve said:


> :lol:
> 
> “Since our projects are on time as we carefully manage our cash flow, buyers are happy.” said Aslam
> 
> Talk about a blatant lie. 3 years late and unhappy buyers :bash:
> 
> guess they are trying to pre-empt mistermark's campaign.


Disgusting!


----------



## RedWayne28thfloor

*goodwill*

So the term goodwill payment is used instead of compensation. Clearly a directive from selects lawyers.


----------



## friendship1976

*To those that are interested to know.*

greetings to all, I just joined this forum, and for those of you that are interested to know, that I'm in litigation with Select. I first filed a law suite against Select in the U.S, and then my attorney and I decided that it would be best to move it to Dubai, since it would be costly for me. The law firm that is currently handling my matter in Dubai is Hadiff and partners. I'd like some feed back from people that are in a similar situation. Thanks


----------



## friendship1976

jaydubai said:


> Can anybody tell me at what date I can ask for my money back due to completion date
> Being delayed numerous times.. I'm on lpp and I'm hoping I can get a full refund?
> Help would be much appreciated


Good luck with that one!!! my attorneys have been trying since the end of 2009, we are now going to arbitration. Dubai's laws are so screwed up, that even arbitration is not binding, which means if the arbitrator rules in my favor, and Select does not accept that ruling, I then have to go to court and try to enforce the arbitrator's finding. (finding is a better word, I guess).:bash:


----------



## Dubai bound

*Scoobe-doo where r u!!!!*

Whatever happened to scoobudubai, one minute he was here the next gone, anyone know where his gone too! 

He seems to have disappeared from the Forum, 

anyone any news on him ?


----------



## Sid

Dubai bound said:


> Whatever happened to scoobudubai, one minute he was here the next gone, anyone know where his gone too!
> 
> He seems to have disappeared from the Forum,
> 
> anyone any news on him ?


He's developing his 'hi tech' website.

:nuts:


----------



## MANUTD

Ben44 said:


> http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...Torch’
> 
> Dont know what your all worried about, the man from Select says is is going well


Well thats all alright then !! :lol:

1) No mention of charging for services before we get them like they did at THE POINT -- i paid for one month eactra while they waited to finish my apartment anmd i needethe money then for renatal so just paid up 

2) As of yet not being alLowed to re-inspect our snagging before handover mine was done in SEPTEMBER)

3) Not being allowed to measure our apartments to check the size is correct 

4) LTPP owners having to sign a dodgy probably illegal addendum to lose their properly entitled rights BEFORE handover 

5) Having 3 star quality delivered despite claims of 5 Star quality 

These are the facts at the moment -- I hate PR BULLSHIT -- have put up with SG for so long but I want to have my greviances sorted before i take handover


----------



## foxy

Dubai Select have no shame!
Glad to see them manage their cashflow so well!
Mine suffered but what the hell. I am so happy that i help provide the cashflow for select's amazing success. So in summary the little crooks are hiding behind Dubai laws, Dubai authorities and now Dubai PR.


----------



## Mistermark

I trust we have all seen the press release about The Torch http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=76853153&postcount=594.

It describes Select Group as a 'success story' that is 'based on foundations of trust [and] integrity' and claims that it achieves 'quality of construction'.

Starting today I am actively seeking the assistance of fellow current or previous customers of Select Group who wish to share their personal experiences of the trust, integrity and construction quality they have experienced from Select Group with the media in the UK. When a company performs this well for its customers, it should not hide its light under a bushel: it deserves widespread publicity.

For clarity, I am not running a campaign group, I cannot offer you advice about the addendum, I am not interested in any non-SG projects in Dubai or UAE. And because the media outlets in question are in the UK, you must be either UK-resident or a UK citizen to participate, as well as being a current or previous owner.

In respect of The Torch, I already have a large number of volunteers so I am interested only if you have a particular angle on it or a 'hard luck' story to tell. Currently I am a little short of buyers willing to go on the record in Bay Central and Botanica, followed by The Point (though the quality of those who have come forward on TP, like the construction job on that building, is first rate).

My email is [email protected]. Please email me, rather than using the PM function on this site.

Many thanks.


----------



## 234sale

Clause 6.1,,


----------



## rags

The Apt owners in Torch must write to Gulf News and Khaleej Times asap to put the record straight and call Select's shameless spin for what it is. They should also work on the offer from Mistermark as he has shown us clearly (and, cleverly) putting his money where his mouth has been and is.


----------



## propertymagnet

I hope they come forward as well Rags. There been enough moaning and wingeing on this site, let just hope Mistermark gets the support he deserves, and owners past and present will come forward and have there say. Good luck mistermark


----------



## MANUTD

234sale said:


> Clause 6.1,,


Yes quite !!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Just noticed that the SKYNET invoice/ticket on my handover documents comes from:

DUBAI SELECT (not SELECT GROUP) in DUBAI ?

I though DUBAI SELECT are the UK company?


----------



## Dubai bound

*Skynet*

So have you paid and signed Steve ?


----------



## micmonro1

*warning about signing and paying*



Dubai bound said:


> So have you paid and signed Steve ?


Everyone,
Deadline is looming but do not despair - I have a legal background and I wish to warn you of the dangers of signing and paying. I understand we all want to get our apartment and move on but if you do this you will be in a far worse position than you are already. I expect soon after tomorrow those who have not 'complied' will receive threatening letters dressed up with the right to take our property and forfeit our monies already invested. This cannot be far from the truth as this will amount to unfair terms of your contract which they are trying to enforce and IS challengeable. 

Those on LPP especially the consequences of signing and paying means: 
a) that you deemed to agree with it (and therefore on weaker grounds when challenging it later)
b) you are putting your self in a compromising situation and signing your right to participate in an OA and vote.
c) you cannot challenge the service charge they impose and the yearly unjustifiable increases which you will find hard to recover from your rental income
d) SG decides whether you could sell or not
e) not legally obliged to get tenants to sign their own Tenancy Agreement which gives you as the leaseholder very little rights if any

In accordance with SPA Torch Select NOT SG have agreed to resolve matters where there is a dispute then arbitration if it is not resolved. Your money paid so far is protected in an Escrow account and if they choose to transfer it to another account your money should still be safe.
SG are simply bullies who are going to make threats. You need to be prepared to stand up to them and challenge them. 
Just because they are in a different jurisdiction they think that we are stupid and do not know our rights. Why should we let them stitch us up further, hadn't they taken enough from us to put in their fat bellies (See Rahail Islam - CEO of SG being featured as being on the Sunday Times Rich List).
DO NOT CRUMBLE AND STAND FIRM BECAUSE TOGETHER WE CAN ACHIEVE WHATEVER WE WANT TO ACHIEVE. DO NOT LET DUBAI'S DREAM BE AT OUR OWN EXPENSE. DUBAI IS ABOUT REPUTATION AND THIS IS WHERE WE NEED TO FOCUS AS WELL AS CHALLENGING THEM THROUGH THE LEGAL SYSTEM.


----------



## jeetha

Oh dear what a mess!!

SELECT GROUP:bash:


----------



## Dubai bound

*?*

Hi


The problem you will find is that most will sign, same has they did in The Point, yes I agree they are being bullied and it is also illegal, and you dont have to sign, and No they cant take what you have paid so far, but you have to remember most people dont want to take the risk and that is what Rahail Aslam works on, he works on the assumption, that most people are scared, and that is because most people are honest Rahail, and most people just want what they paid for and for you and your company to act in good faith,, its Ok using your contacts to get helpful PR in the press, but why dont you inform the same press of the reality, No I suppose that is asking too much, but surely even you can see, you are trying it on too much this time, its bad enough we have waited this long, and your paltry offer of Goodwill, but surely you can see, from comments and the hatred that is growing, that this is not the right way forward, I dont know if these are your own views Rahail, or you are being advised, but Morals and ethics should at least be applied in business. its not all about making money! dont let greed take over! because it has a way of turning round and biting you hard on the B--
I was always taught to be cautious Rahail and told be careful who you tred on, on the way up, because they will be waiting when you are on the way down !

Do the right thing, just let the people have there apartments which they have paid for by adhering to the original sales & purchase agreement, times are tough enough, dont try to wring everybody dry for your own personal gain!


----------



## scoobudubai

Scoob is back after being banned. It would seem that someone went in banging hard on the moderator's door.

A new website is being prepared which should be of interest to most investors and the public, to expose how these companies have been operating. The temporary website is gone it seems.

We have a great marketing video by Select Property.


----------



## slick2day

Hi Everyone
Just a remainder there is a torch owners meeting THIS MONDAY IN CENTRAL LONDON AT 2.30.If your interested in attending please private message me.


----------



## scoobudubai

propertymate said:


> I am another unhappy Torch owner and partly blame myself for being taken in by the sales patter of SP and the glossy brochures. Surely it should be that SP provide compensation for grosss misrepresentation. I have an article in the Daily Express dated April 19th 2006 that states "Dubai Select (SP) a Cheshire based DEVELOPER specializing solely in this tax-free haven, has just 83 off-plan one, two and three-bed apartments and two penthouses left. etc etc...................................OWNERS WILL ENJOY FIVE-STAR LUXURY FROM TOP TO BOTTOM ETC..................
> This is untrue. I am so disappointed thatI shall be appointing an agent to do the Handover rather than coming to Dubai.


Hi Propertymate, any chance you could scan it all in?, I saw it before but am having difficulty


----------



## scoobudubai

slick2day said:


> Hi Everyone
> Just a remainder there is a torch owners meeting THIS MONDAY IN CENTRAL LONDON AT 2.30.If your interested in attending please private message me.


Is there still a plan to protest outside the UAE embassy when the torch is launched? with media etc?


----------



## slick2day

Hi scoobudubai

We are meeting tommorow to discuss the way forward.Nothings going to happen as individuals....why dont you come with your ideas....?


----------



## slick2day

Hi Everyone

Torch owners meeting THIS MONDAY IN CENTRAL LONDON AT 2.30.If your interested in attending please private message me.


----------



## NickBoyC

Does anyone know what this Facebook group or page is called? Can't find anything on it


----------



## Imre

So anyone moved today ?


----------



## vaksa

*Buyers protest against tower clause*

Buyers in the world's tallest residential tower are organising protests against what they claim are unfair practices by the developer.

http://www.thenational.ae/business/property/buyers-protest-against-tower-clause


----------



## Dubai bound

*vaska*

nothing on that link you put in post ???


----------



## Mistermark

Imre said:


> So anyone moved today ?


I have it on good authority that eight units were handed over today. Which means The Torch is definitely the world's tallest (completed) residential tower - whatever the developer of 23 Marina may claim...


----------



## Impy

*THE NATIONAL NEWSPAPER ARTICLE*



Dubai bound said:


> nothing on that link you put in post ???[/QU
> 
> Buyers protest against tower clause - The National2 May 2011 ... "*We are making sure there is legal protection in case of default by the buyer," said Rahail Aslam, the chief executive of Select. ...*www.thenational.ae/business/property/buyers-protest-against-tower-clause -
> 
> 1 hour ago
> Dubai Developer's
> 
> Cant access the full story - does anyone have the link ?


----------



## scoobudubai

Impy said:


> Dubai bound said:
> 
> 
> 
> nothing on that link you put in post ???[/QU
> 
> Buyers protest against tower clause - The National2 May 2011 ... "*We are making sure there is legal protection in case of default by the buyer," said Rahail Aslam, the chief executive of Select. ...*www.thenational.ae/business/property/buyers-protest-against-tower-clause -
> 
> 1 hour ago
> Dubai Developer's
> 
> Cant access the full story - does anyone have the link ?
> 
> 
> 
> Scoob to the rescue:
> 
> Business
> Property
> 
> Buyers protest against tower clause
> Kevin Brass
> 
> Last Updated: May 2, 2011
> 
> 
> Buyers in the world's tallest residential tower are organising protests against what they claim are unfair practices by the developer.
> 
> Select Group is starting to hand over apartments this month in the Torch, the 343-metre tower in Dubai Marina. The Dh665 million (US$181m) tower will surpass the Q1 tower on the Gold Coast of Australia, currently the world's tallest residential tower at 323 metres.
> 
> But some buyers on a long-term payment plan in the Dubai project are refusing to sign an addendum to their contracts, which the developer is requiring before they will get their keys.
> 
> The new clause requires the buyers to pay thousands of dirhams in service fees upfront, in addition to giving the developer their voting rights on the homeowners' association.
> 
> "We're pretty much being held to ransom," said a buyer, who asked not to be identified. "It's a complete nightmare."
> 
> However, the developer said the change is a standard procedure and most buyers were moving ahead with their purchase plans. The long-term payment plan gave buyers 15 years to pay for their apartments.
> 
> "We are making sure there is legal protection in case of default by the buyer," said Rahail Aslam, the chief executive of Select. "We are at risk if they occupy the apartment and there is no remedy for non-payment."
> 
> The addendum also gives the developer the right to sell the contracts for their remaining instalments to a third party.
> 
> About 275 of the buyers in the project used the long-term plan, Mr Aslam said. Buyers on the plan had the option of paying the full purchase price at handover, he said.
> 
> 
> 
> UK investors have organised a meeting for Monday in London.
> 
> "What we're fighting is, how can they change the original contracts?" said the buyer.
> 
> About 90 per cent of the 676 apartments in the Torch have been sold, mainly to European and Middle East buyers between 2006 and 2008 at the height of the Dubai property boom, Mr Aslam said.
> 
> Buyers typically paid between Dh720,000 and Dh1.7 million for apartments ranging from 900 square feet to 1,700 sq ft, Mr Aslam said.
> 
> The Torch's claim to the tallest residential tower designation may be short lived. The Princess Tower, also in Dubai Marina, has already topped out at 414 metres. Originally scheduled to finish this year, the Princess Tower is now scheduled for handover in January, a company spokesman said.
> 
> Both the Torch and Princess Tower will be passed by another Dubai Marina tower under construction, the Pentominium, which is planned to reach 516 metres. The Pentominium is at least a year from finished.
> 
> 
> 
> Including the Torch, Dubai is already home to six of the 10 tallest residential buildings in the world, according to the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat.
> 
> Burj Khalifa, the world's tallest building at 828 metres, includes apartments but it is not considered residential. To be included on the council's list, a tower must be at least 90 per cent residential.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Share this article:
Click to expand...


----------



## Dubai bound

*Mr Aslam*

if has you state you are only trying to protect yourself, you should take that up with your legal department who wrote the original contract, not expect the investors to rectify your Legal departments incompetance, and sign these.

Or is it because you know no one would have purchased or signed the original contract if them points were added then ??? and you think that you can just add them at a later date and no one will bat an eyelid.

If you dont want to let people have there apartments who wont sign, then that's easy, you are in breach of contract give them investors the choice, if they dont want to agree then return there money!

The law states you have to stick to the Original sales and purchase agreement, and you know it!


----------



## Joannides

Mistermark said:


> I have it on good authority that eight units were handed over today. Which means The Torch is definitely the world's tallest (completed) residential tower - whatever the developer of 23 Marina may claim...


Depends on what your definition of 'handed over' is! ;-)

The building is yet to receive the necessary certificate from the Dubai Municipality, so while people can collect their keys and be given the tour of the building (once all payments have been made), they cannot walk around unaccompanied and certainly cannot move in. 'Pre-hand-over would probably be a more appropriate term!

I have been told that the necessary paperwork will be in place around the middle of the month.


----------



## foxy

*Email Kevin Brass*

I have emailed Mr Brass. I thanked him for bringing this matter before the public and gave him the perspective of a buyer on an SPP contract.

I had paid 90% of the purchase price by May 2007 as per contract. If Select had honoured the contract they would had my money for years and only paid just over 3% over all that time... But no they are soo greedy..


----------



## True Blue

Been reading those press releases above. Select originaly sold themselves as a UK based developer, then when they sold out and things started to unralvel, they distanced themselves from Select Dubai by claiming the UK business was just an agent appointed to sell only.

Now it has all gone full circle again as Mr Aslam claims that Select are in fact a UK based company. What an own goal!!!


----------



## shakka

True Blue said:


> Been reading those press releases above. Select originaly sold themselves as a UK based developer, then when they sold out and things started to unralvel, they distanced themselves from Select Dubai by claiming the UK business was just an agent appointed to sell only.
> 
> Now it has all gone full circle again as Mr Aslam claims that Select are in fact a UK based company. What an own goal!!!


Bang on! Select UK owe us money full stop


----------



## rbuster8

*LPP SALES & PURCHASE AGREEMENT?*

Hi everybody,
I've recently been in touch with quite a few of you through PM. Sorry to be asking such a vacuous question at this stage in light of whats been said about the reality of receiving a refund from Select. Can anyone tell me where in the LPP SPA it says "if the completion date is delayed then a refund will be given"? I'm sure this has been discussed on this forum many times over the last few years. I know it's been discussed repeatedly and probably dismissed as impossible by now, However. What happens now? (3 years past the original completion date)? Is this not breach of contract (forgetting about the fraudulent force majeure claim). What happens to those on the LPP who can no longer afford to make the quarterly payments? Select must have been in 'breach of contract',, so,, can an effort still be made to sue them even though the quarterly payments are no longer fourth coming from the LPP investor? In other words, if we can't pay anymore. Is it feasible to take legal action against Select in UK (after all the CEO has just said publicly that "they are a UK based company").


----------



## vaksa

foxy said:


> I have emailed Mr Brass. I thanked him for bringing this matter before the public...


For about 20 minutes.
The headline is still there though.


----------



## rbuster8

*when didi he say select is aUK based company?*



True Blue said:


> Been reading those press releases above. Select originaly sold themselves as a UK based developer, then when they sold out and things started to unralvel, they distanced themselves from Select Dubai by claiming the UK business was just an agent appointed to sell only.
> 
> Now it has all gone full circle again as Mr Aslam claims that Select are in fact a UK based company. What an own goal!!!


Hi True Blue,
When/where did Aslam say that "Select are in fact a UK based company"? Can't see it anywhere. Can you post please?


----------



## scoobudubai

vaksa said:


> For about 20 minutes.
> The headline is still there though.


Has this got something to do with freedom of the press in the UAE?


----------



## Dubai bound

*negative reporting*

They dont like Negative reporting! shows Dubai in a bad light!

perhaps they should have reported building is not 100% finished yet, which means completion certificate not issued yet, which means people who have signed and paid from 1st May, can't even occupy until such time and who knows if it will even pass inspection, so still might not be able to occupy, and might have to wait a bit longer, but still few more $$$$ into select account while we wait!

But at least they can report it is the tallest residential tower.... some consolation ! thats good press


NICE!


----------



## Rider

Once the OA is formed, I for one will be pushing to make sure that the service charge calculations are independently reviewed by members not associated with Select. 

There are 2 main areas I would like clarification on:

Who is paying for the developer's unsold stock. 

On which date should the service charge begin.

I have been in contact with Cayan regarding an apartment in Silverene and they have confirmed to me what the service charges and chiller fees will be. I realise that it's a much smaller development but the differences are significant.


----------



## Dubai bound

*handovers*

Is it true that all handovers have been cancelled for the time being, due to all certificates not being in place ?

if so naughty naughty :bash: select trying to get more money in before even having all relevant paperwork in order

Seems RERA do have some authority


----------



## Rider

Dubai bound said:


> Is it true that all handovers have been cancelled for the time being, due to all certificates not being in place ?
> 
> if so naughty naughty :bash: select trying to get more money in before even having all relevant paperwork in order
> 
> Seems RERA do have some authority


If this is true then investors may well be out of pocket again if they had already booked flights.


----------



## Dubai bound

*oh yes*

But I recall a paragrapph in letter from select on completion notice stating no cost of travel will be reimbursed if handover does not occur!

They like to cover themselves, which is why they are pushing hard for amendments to be signed>


----------



## True Blue

propertymate said:


> Read this 'The Torch, a development by UK-BASED Select Group' :-
> 
> http://gulfnews.com/business/proper...-tower-set-to-welcome-occupants-soon-1.800497





rbuster8 said:


> Hi True Blue,
> When/where did Aslam say that "Select are in fact a UK based company"? Can't see it anywhere. Can you post please?


This is the quote from the Gulf News article;


> The Torch, a development by UK-based Select Group, is set to take in its first residents next month. While chuffed at the new accolade, the developer is also sitting pretty as more than 80 per cent of the 676 apartment units have buyers.


Mind you, the rest of the article is bullshit so they have a great defense already :lol:


----------



## True Blue

Rider said:


> Once the OA is formed, I for one will be pushing to make sure that the service charge calculations are independently reviewed by members not associated with Select.
> 
> There are 2 main areas I would like clarification on:
> 
> Who is paying for the developer's unsold stock.
> 
> On which date should the service charge begin.
> 
> I have been in contact with Cayan regarding an apartment in Silverene and they have confirmed to me what the service charges and chiller fees will be. I realise that it's a much smaller development but the differences are significant.


I don't take your point about Silverene being a much smaller development. There is such a thing as economies of scale, the bigger the development the cheaper the running costs per foot should be. Silverene has 2 towers with 2 receptions to staff and secure. Probably has a larger leisure area with bigger pools, bigger gym and better quality equipment and sunbeds etc.


----------



## jeetha

Rider said:


> I have been in contact with Cayan regarding an apartment in Silverene and they have confirmed to me what the service charges and chiller fees will be. I realise that it's a much smaller development but the differences are significant.


& what is it going to be.......?


----------



## johnnyinspain

I have been involved in a 3 year fight with another developer in Dubai Marina, (a single 21 floor tower developer). We had the same problems you are having with Select. Finally 3 years later we have control of our OA and have just agreed 2011 service fees at 12.50 AED per square foot. We have full facilities in our tower and have obtained and used multiple quotes from service companies.
If you go as a group to RERA, (obtain quotations from independent service companies) and INSIST that the OA is set up immediately, they may well reject the first year charges requested by Select. But you have to do this NOW.
I also own in Silverene, and agree that Silverene in the real world will probably be more expensive to operate than Torch as it is 2 towers with much larger area's serving facilities, (other than cleaning charges for communal area's in Torch). We are expecting around 12 to 15 AED for that development in the long run. Torch should be in my experience around 13 to 14 AED per square foot. (Al Majara by EMAAR; 5 towers with amazing facilities is 15.80 AED per square foot).

*The key for you guys is to keep going to RERA as a group until they act, and keep pushing publicity. You WILL win in the long run. Good luck guys*.



jeetha said:


> & what is it going to be.......?


Originally Posted by Rider 
I have been in contact with Cayan regarding an apartment in Silverene and they have confirmed to me what the service charges and chiller fees will be. I realise that it's a much smaller development but the differences are significant.


----------



## MANUTD

True Blue said:


> I don't take your point about Silverene being a much smaller development. There is such a thing as economies of scale, the bigger the development the cheaper the running costs per foot should be. Silverene has 2 towers with 2 receptions to staff and secure. Probably has a larger leisure area with bigger pools, bigger gym and better quality equipment and sunbeds etc.


20 AED PSF at THE TORCH (inc chiller at 5aed psf ) --this is a joke now and from what am hearing SG WON'T GET AWAY with it !! 

As owners you are NOT OBLIGED TO PAY ANY SERVICE CHARGES until COMPLETION CERTIFICATE is issued by the MUNINCIPALITY 

DON'T PAY until SG produce that CERTIFICATE 

I never dId see the one for the POINT ?


----------



## Rider

Cayan told me Silverene would be 10 + 3 chiller which is a bargain compared to what these crooks are charging, particularly when you consider that the standard of finish at Silverene is considerably better than the Torch.


----------



## Rider

True Blue said:


> I don't take your point about Silverene being a much smaller development. There is such a thing as economies of scale, the bigger the development the cheaper the running costs per foot should be. Silverene has 2 towers with 2 receptions to staff and secure. Probably has a larger leisure area with bigger pools, bigger gym and better quality equipment and sunbeds etc.


I take your point about economies of scale and 2 lots of reception etc but I'm sure gym equipment maintenance and sunbeds will have a minimal bearing on things.


----------



## jeetha

Rider said:


> Cayan told me Silverene would be 10 + 3 chiller which is a bargain compared to what these crooks are charging, particularly when you consider that the standard of finish at Silverene is considerably better than the Torch.


Hope you are right :banana:


----------



## Bling08

Are you responding to Dubai select stating you will not be paying Service Charges?


----------



## DennyCrane

*Confused, you will be!*

Interesting news that requires explanation

Whilst searching out some old records I found some interesting documents from my Bay Central purchase back in 2007.

Bay Central, Dubai Marina - Frequently Asked Contract Questions

Q. Who are the developers behind Bay Central?

A. Dubai Select is the developer of Bay Central. The plot 8V on Dubai Marina is wholly owned by the Dubai registered Bay Central Phase 1 Limited, a project-specific sister company of Dubai Select, who secured this site early in 2006.

A quick trip to companies house shows the registered office of Dubai Select is the same as the company in Manchester we currently know as Select property

Name & Registered Office:
DUBAI SELECT LIMITED
THE BOX BROOKE COURT LOWER MEADOW ROAD 
HANDFORTH 
WILMSLOW 
CHESHIRE 
SK9 3ND 
Company No. 04838525

Is it any wonder we all thought we were buying from a UK based company? Even the staff from Manchester also worked in the Dubai office.

I know this isn't a construction update and I will also post on the Select thread. It is however, very important people see these facts about BC and Select and not all investors visit the Select thread

There are too many people who feel ripped off and our time will come. It shouldn't have to be like this


----------



## MANUTD

Bling08 said:


> Are you responding to Dubai select stating you will not be paying Service Charges?


I think there could be quite a few actually very soon writing in . Also they must allow an IOA to set their own service charges 20 aed psf is a total rip off - I thought THE POINT was HIGH ENOUGH but this really taking owners for mugs


----------



## Dubai_Steve

The sales girl who showed us around the plots from the Select Group Emaar business park offices also worked as a model for the brochures for Select Property in the UK. Surely not just a coincidence?


----------



## Morrismarina

DennyCrane said:


> Interesting news that requires explanation
> 
> Whilst searching out some old records I found some interesting documents from my Bay Central purchase back in 2007.
> 
> Bay Central, Dubai Marina - Frequently Asked Contract Questions
> 
> Q. Who are the developers behind Bay Central?
> 
> A. Dubai Select is the developer of Bay Central. The plot 8V on Dubai Marina is wholly owned by the Dubai registered Bay Central Phase 1 Limited, a project-specific sister company of Dubai Select, who secured this site early in 2006.
> 
> A quick trip to companies house shows the registered office of Dubai Select is the same as the company in Manchester we currently know as Select property
> 
> Name & Registered Office:
> DUBAI SELECT LIMITED
> THE BOX BROOKE COURT LOWER MEADOW ROAD
> HANDFORTH
> WILMSLOW
> CHESHIRE
> SK9 3ND
> Company No. 04838525
> 
> Is it any wonder we all thought we were buying from a UK based company? Even the staff from Manchester also worked in the Dubai office.
> 
> I know this isn't a construction update and I will also post on the Select thread. It is however, very important people see these facts about BC and Select and not all investors visit the Select thread
> 
> There are too many people who feel ripped off and our time will come. It shouldn't have to be like this


Not sure why you are confused it's very simple.

Dubai Select Limited (now calling themselves Select Property) is the UK company based in Wilmslow who are the selling agents.

Duabi Select LLC (now calling themselves Select Group) is the UAE company who's the developer.

As far as I understand they are not connected in any legal way, it's just a coincidence that they both shared the same name "Dubai Select".


----------



## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> About 275 of the buyers in the project used the long-term plan, Mr Aslam said.


That is interesting as it means Select will not have the majority vote. As less than 50% of buyers are on the LPP.


----------



## mackie1964

I finally got the handover documentations this weekend and it only arrived in the UK a few days ago according to the posting stamps / tracking codes ....etc. The letter is dated 31st March which is obviously an attempt at another fiddle by the crooked developer in my opinion.

I will now challenge every one of those costs and of course not sign any addendums. :cheers:


----------



## scoobudubai

Morrismarina said:


> Not sure why you are confused it's very simple.
> 
> Dubai Select Limited (now calling themselves Select Property) is the UK company based in Wilmslow who are the selling agents.
> 
> Duabi Select LLC (now calling themselves Select Group) is the UAE company who's the developer.
> 
> As far as I understand they are not connected in any legal way, it's just a coincidence that they both shared the same name "Dubai Select".


"not connected in any legal way".

Select (U.K.) (now Select Property Group), obvious attempts to deceive back in 2005 onwards for many years, in the light of what they are now claiming.


----------



## micmonro1

*Did Aslam ever tell the truth?*

Are we to believe whatever Asllam says? The statements by them should be taken as a pinch of salt unless they can produce EVIDENCE. 
This also applies to all the outstanding documents that they are withholding from us.


----------



## DennyCrane

Morrismarina said:


> Not sure why you are confused it's very simple.
> 
> Dubai Select Limited (now calling themselves Select Property) is the UK company based in Wilmslow who are the selling agents.
> 
> Duabi Select LLC (now calling themselves Select Group) is the UAE company who's the developer.
> 
> As far as I understand they are not connected in any legal way, it's just a coincidence that they both shared the same name "Dubai Select".


Please read my post and the wording very carefully. The document from Dubai select at the time of purchase did not state either Dubai Select LLC or Dubai Select LTD just Dubai Select whose registered office is the UK. It's clear after we all bought that the UK arm of Dubai Select was closed down and a magical name change appeared to Select property. Dubai Select is now a dormant UK company. Sorry Morris but it stinks and it's misleading


----------



## micmonro1

*RERA reply to charges*

To all the Torch owners who may still be uncertain about RERA's position with regard to service charge, the CEO has made it absolutely clear that WE MUST NOT PAY UNTIL THE APPROVAL CERTIFICATE IS SIGNED OFF BY RERA. 
Please read it carefully before paying anything.

"Thanks for your contact. I went through your email and I would like to explain the following:
1- as govt official I always make sure that myself or my team answer any inquires by investors but sometime investors they are looking for answer that we don't have or they don't want to accept our answer to them specially when it comes to jurisdiction that out of our scope, so if any investor tell you the opposite let him show you the evidence that we didn't answer him , and by the way all information required by investors can be found in our web site www.rpdubai.com and its updated regularly. 
2- regarding the project you mentioned any fees that the developer want you to pay you should ask him for the approval document issued by us. If he can't provide you with the document then don't pay him. We always give developer approval in written format. 
3- Developer can't cancel any contract without following the process of land dept and you as owner will be contacted by the developer and the land dept legal section for any cancellation process. So don't assume that R.E rights are not protected in Dubai. We have more that 130 nationality invested in Dubai and they are happy with their investment and enjoying living in Dubai and I hope you will be one of them soon. 
3- we at RERA can assist you with any issue that developer forcing you to do that against the law. The only thing we can't involve in is a contractual agreement sign between two parties. If there any issue of such matter the court will be the place to solve it not the regulator. 
So as concluding to my email myself and the team will always be their to assist with our capacity and jurisdiction and if developer ask you to pay anything always ask him for RERA written approval. I'm cc this email to land dept legal section if you have any clarification you can contact them . 
Wish you all the best and please if any investor tell you that RERA don't answer email tell them the CEO of RERA answered me in his day OFF. 
Best Regards,,, 
" The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams" E. Roosevelt 

Eng. Marwan Bin Ghulaita 
CEO 
RERA 
+97142030333"


----------



## scoobudubai

DennyCrane said:


> Please read my post and the wording very carefully. The document from Dubai select at the time of purchase did not state either Dubai Select LLC or Dubai Select LTD just Dubai Select whose registered office is the UK. It's clear after we all bought that the UK arm of Dubai Select was closed down and a magical name change appeared to Select property. Dubai Select is now a dormant UK company. Sorry Morris but it stinks and it's misleading


Hi Denny
Thanks, you hit the nail on the head, except for one thing. Dubai Select. U.K is alive and well, it just under a 'name change' or 'previously known as' effectively Select Property Group U.K.

See www.selectproperty.com:
© 2004-2011 Select Property Group Ltd. Company No. 05071388. 

Check Companies House.

ok I just changed my mind..I will help out a little:
_Companies House Details
Companies House Number: 05071388 
Incorporation Date: 12 Mar 2004 
Latest set of accounts: Filed on: 28 Sep 10
Made up to: 31 Dec 09
Purchase a copy of these accounts for only £4.99

Sample accountsLast company return showing the directors and ownership details: Filed on: 06 Apr 11
Made up to: 12 Mar 11
Purchase a copy of this company return for only £4.99

Sample return45 documents available View other documents available on this company 
Financial Year End31-12 
Capital: £100.00 (as at 06 Apr 2011) 

Previous Company Names
DUBAI SELECT LIMITEDChanged 26 Sep 2006_

Many people agree with you that the said they were the developer and now they are saying the developer is a totally different company in Dubai (watch out..in Dubai does not exactly mean - registered in Dubai). Please help with more comments they are welcome


----------



## Impy

*some great quotes from Arabianbusiness.com*

As property prices continue to decline, Mark Stott, CEO of real estate agent-turned-developer Select Property, explains why he's still feeling confident in his company and business partner Select Group.

One person who appears quite the opposite of uneasy is Mark Stott, CEO of UK-based real estate agent-turned-developer, Select Property.

"I think Dubai will bounce very, very quickly. I don't think the money is gone, I think people are just sitting on their hands," he says.

His company, Select Property, began selling property in Dubai four and a half years ago in partnership with Select Group, a Dubai-based developer. Since then, Select Property has been responsible for the sales of every project by the developer, as well as branching into development through a number of joint ventures with its partner. 

Stott is confident Select Property and partner Select Group- led by CEO Rahail Aslam- will continue along the same successful path, though suggests some other developers may not be able to keep the pace.


----------



## Impy

*Arabianbusiness.com quotes*

some great quotes from Arabianbusiness.com 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As property prices continue to decline, Mark Stott, CEO of real estate agent-turned-developer Select Property, explains why he's still feeling confident in his company and business partner Select Group.

One person who appears quite the opposite of uneasy is Mark Stott, CEO of UK-based real estate agent-turned-developer, Select Property.

"I think Dubai will bounce very, very quickly. I don't think the money is gone, I think people are just sitting on their hands," he says.

His company, Select Property, began selling property in Dubai four and a half years ago in partnership with Select Group, a Dubai-based developer. Since then, Select Property has been responsible for the sales of every project by the developer, as well as branching into development through a number of joint ventures with its partner. 

Stott is confident Select Property and partner Select Group- led by CEO Rahail Aslam- will continue along the same successful path, though suggests some other developers may not be able to keep the pace.


----------



## slick2day

Hello everyone

I have posted for a little while.Myself and 
Micromonro1 are busy getting members through
Our group.As well as getting our thoughts together.
Even if you decide to sign the addendums under duress 
Please join the group.Get in on the act and say 
YES to people power.
[email protected]


----------



## slick2day

Let's not forget select properties role in this.


----------



## torchowner

MANUTD said:


> I am not volunteering to lead a group at all because of demands on my time but am sure there are individuals out there who are so inclined to do so -- and they should ALL work together if possible


So you would like others to do all the hard and dirty work and reap the rewards!:bash:


----------



## slick2day

Hi impy

Great article...wonder if Mr Stott few as relaxed as when he
did for that article? Hmmmmmm I don't think so....!


----------



## slick2day

Hey torchowner and Manutd....it's fine we 
can all contribute to the group cause in different
ways.


----------



## micmonro1

To the Torch owners, I have posted an interview by RERA's CEO., and this link is to another more recent. Please read it. I believe that there some who portraying an image that Dubai is a lawless place. That wrong and the letter which the man has sent me proves it.
But please read the article as well.
1- http://www.arabianbusiness.com/exclu...a--366395.html
“There is no developer above the law. Or sub developer. Nakheel, Emaar, Dubai Holding, *all of them are following the law of the regulatory agency. All of them. There is no exception. If any of them has any assumption that they are above the law, then let them read the law. The law did not exempt anyone…. But people think ‘oh those are the master developers, so they are exempt.’ No, no, no.”
*

Please read, think carefully before you sign or agree anything, I am sure that those of you who have some common sense will see the wisdom in my efforts. 
Please inform others who may not know about this link.


----------



## scoobudubai

micmonro1 said:


> To the Torch owners, I have posted an interview by RERA's CEO., and this link is to another more recent. Please read it. I believe that there some who portraying an image that Dubai is a lawless place. That wrong and the letter which the man has sent me proves it.
> But please read the article as well.
> 1- http://www.arabianbusiness.com/exclu...a--366395.html
> “There is no developer above the law. Or sub developer. Nakheel, Emaar, Dubai Holding, *all of them are following the law of the regulatory agency. All of them. There is no exception. If any of them has any assumption that they are above the law, then let them read the law. The law did not exempt anyone…. But people think ‘oh those are the master developers, so they are exempt.’ No, no, no.”
> *
> 
> Please read, think carefully before you sign or agree anything, I am sure that those of you who have some common sense will see the wisdom in my efforts.
> Please inform others who may not know about this link.


Can't help feeling it myself, that Dubai is a lawless place. Why are people so terrified of challenging Select, why do they confiscate all monies paid to date, so easily...


----------



## scoobudubai

scoobudubai said:


> Can't help feeling it myself, that Dubai is a lawless place. Why are people so terrified of challenging Select, why do they confiscate all monies paid to date, so easily...


“There is no developer above the law. Or sub developer. Nakheel, Emaar, Dubai Holding, all of them are following the law of the regulatory agency. All of them. There is no exception. If any of them has any assumption that they are above the law, then let them read the law. The law did not exempt anyone…. But people think ‘oh those are the master developers, so they are exempt.’ No, no, no.”

So the penalty if they are above the law is to be sentenced to "let them read the law". The developers must be shaking in their boots.


----------



## NEMISIS

*ADDENDUMS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO BE SIGNED TO OBTAIN HANDOVER*

After receiving legal advice on the LPP addendum's. Anyone who has or will sign is effectively giving up the apartment and all monies paid to the sole discretion of Rahail Aslam.

The main reason for the re-draft (which is what this actually is) is Clyde & Co realizing that the original contract was drafted incorrectly from day 1. It has then been seized as an opportunity to deceive investors once more.

The overriding legal consensus from lawyers both in Dubai and the UK is that SG are perfectly entitled to ask investors to sign the addendum, and investors are equally entitled to refuse to agree to the terms. If SG refuse handover on the basis of refusal to sign the addendum they are in breach of contract and therefore required to return all monies paid to them under the contract so far, provided the investor has met all of his contractual obligations to date.

Legally speaking once the addendum's are signed you have signed away your ownership of the property and your only right is to continue to pay your LPP premiums until the full purchase price is paid. 

The mortgaged part of the property could end up being owned by any investor/organization who will be legally entitled to change the terms of joint ownership in any way they want as you are agreeing to this legal right which passes to the new joint owner.


----------



## DennyCrane

NEMISIS said:


> After receiving legal advice on the LPP addendum's. Anyone who has or will sign is effectively giving up the apartment and all monies paid to the sole discretion of Rahail Aslam.
> 
> The main reason for the re-draft (which is what this actually is) is Clyde & Co realizing that the original contract was drafted incorrectly from day 1. It has then been seized as an opportunity to deceive investors once more.
> 
> The overriding legal consensus from lawyers both in Dubai and the UK is that SG are perfectly entitled to ask investors to sign the addendum, and investors are equally entitled to refuse to agree to the terms. If SG refuse handover on the basis of refusal to sign the addendum they are in breach of contract and therefore required to return all monies paid to them under the contract so far, provided the investor has met all of his contractual obligations to date.
> 
> Legally speaking once the addendum's are signed you have signed away your ownership of the property and your only right is to continue to pay your LPP premiums until the full purchase price is paid.
> 
> The mortgaged part of the property could end up being owned by any investor/organization who will be legally entitled to change the terms of joint ownership in any way they want as you are agreeing to this legal right which passes to the new joint owner.


Absolutely correct!!!


----------



## Rider

NEMISIS said:


> After receiving legal advice on the LPP addendum's. Anyone who has or will sign is effectively giving up the apartment and all monies paid to the sole discretion of Rahail Aslam.
> 
> The main reason for the re-draft (which is what this actually is) is Clyde & Co realizing that the original contract was drafted incorrectly from day 1. It has then been seized as an opportunity to deceive investors once more.
> 
> The overriding legal consensus from lawyers both in Dubai and the UK is that SG are perfectly entitled to ask investors to sign the addendum, and investors are equally entitled to refuse to agree to the terms. If SG refuse handover on the basis of refusal to sign the addendum they are in breach of contract and therefore required to return all monies paid to them under the contract so far, provided the investor has met all of his contractual obligations to date.
> 
> Legally speaking once the addendum's are signed you have signed away your ownership of the property and your only right is to continue to pay your LPP premiums until the full purchase price is paid.
> 
> The mortgaged part of the property could end up being owned by any investor/organization who will be legally entitled to change the terms of joint ownership in any way they want as you are agreeing to this legal right which passes to the new joint owner.



So what is your proposed course of action if the developer refuses to grant a handover appointment due the addendums not being signed?

How can owners get their keys within the next few weeks without taking legal action against the developer which as we all know could take years.


----------



## Dubai bound

Clyde & Co have been working hard and come up with something they think suits them!
and believe me you will be shocked!


----------



## shakka

Dubai bound said:


> Clyde & Co have been working hard and come up with something they think suits them!
> and believe me you will be shocked!


How do you mean? Shocked by what the addendum says or the further action they will issue to us. Please explain


----------



## shakka

Had a good chat with one of the people on this forum yesterday. We are going to win this. 
Anyone that signs fair enough but you will only have yourself to blame going forward. Sign if you want it wont affect the people that havent signed. If you can afford to wait a little longer we will be rewarded.


----------



## Dubai bound

Exhibitor Details 
Select Property


Select Property has been successfully selling off-plan investments in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) since 2004 and has become Europe’s leading property experts, identifying and delivering high quality projects to offer high returns to customers. Initially focusing on Dubai Marina, Select Property have since launched large scale projects on the Aegean Coast of Turkey and as joint property developers in Dubai’s neighbouring emirate Ras Al Khaimah. More recently for 2010, Select Property has launched 2 stunning projects on Egypt’s Red Sea Riviera and is soon to partner with Spain’s largest savings bank, Bancaja on an exclusive basis.



Select Property’s success is driven by an innovative and unique approach to the overseas property market. The company’s development strategy is simple, land is only purchased and developments launched once key milestones are met in sales across other developments. This ensures we do not over commit or put our customers or ourselves at risk. 



Selecting the right projects is fundamental to deliver the desired rewards to our customers and has been key to our success. This is centred on a set of 5 key principles. By securing developments based on these principles we are able to sustain the marketability and desirability of our purchaser’s properties. 



Our unrivalled approach means the company is able to achieve a high percentage of its sales through repeat and referral business. 



From initial consultation, through to the sales, contractual and payment processes, and then onto handover, Select Property customers are supported throughout. Understanding the importance of peace of mind to its customers, Select Property was the first company to introduce escrow accounts for off-plan developments in Dubai. Protecting the purchaser`s funds throughout the construction phase, escrow offers added security and has been a huge success. Since Select Property introduced escrow in 2006 when launching Bay Central in Dubai Marina and in 2008 when launching the award-winning Pacific development, escrow has become a legal requirement for all off-plan developments in the Emirates. 



2009 saw the completion of Select’s first project, The Point providing a new level of security to the portfolio. This year will see the completion of 2 further projects in Dubai along with additions to the Horizon Sky Beach Resort in Turkey. Moreover the latest projects to be launched in 2010 on Egypt’s Red Sea Coast offer customers the security of a guaranteed rental return, along with full licence approval and legal due-diligence.



Select Property is an innovative leader in the overseas property sector, providing customers with unique products and services designed to meet its customer’s requirements. 


Procuring a mortgage in the overseas property market, particularly emerging ones, can often be difficult. To provide greater flexibility to its customers, Select Property has developed flexible payment plans to make purchasing a property more accessible. This accompanied with the prospect of immediate rentals or a rental guarantee provided by both Egypt projects, Royal Beach and Paradise Gardens allow for greater flexibility.

In 2008, Select Property launched its financial services arm, Select Money. Select Money provides financial products tailor made for the overseas property market. Its one stop financial solution offers a currency exchange service providing preferential rates over high street banks and the option to forward book currency for up to two years, fixing the exchange rate for property payments and helping protect from adverse currency movements. 

The most recent addition is Select Furniture, helping customers to command higher rentals with a complete turn key furniture solution. Available exclusively to Select Property customers, Select Furniture presents a range of stylish furniture packs, with optional upgrades available, alleviating the hassle of managing deliveries and chasing available items. A choice of styles have been strictly selected to provide the highest quality, yet carefully priced to deliver value and comfort.


----------



## Dubai bound

yes Select your sales are certainly UNIQUE that is for sure, and great you get so many repeat customers!
Investors show oct 2011 see you there


----------



## Dubai bound

and we are supported throuhout the sale right through to handover perhaps you could explain why you washed your hands of the Torch then but fail to mention that in this report you have just passed to overseas investor show at EXCEL


----------



## Dubai bound

*?*

Select property you seem to be saying one thing but do another, Times are ready to change


----------



## Caribarra

Hi All

I did sign but I have sent e-mails stating that I signed under duress and not to process my documents, we will see what happens I guess. Thanks.


----------



## micmonro1

*Shocked????....Ha*



Dubai bound said:


> Clyde & Co have been working hard and come up with something they think suits them!
> and believe me you will be shocked!


Do you see me shocked?....... For Clyde & co and their client my message is clear, hear my voice,
Bring it on


----------



## micmonro1

*Think before you sign*



Caribarra said:


> Hi All
> 
> I did sign but I have sent e-mails stating that I signed under duress and not to process my documents, we will see what happens I guess. Thanks.


*Under duress won't get you anywhere, SG can still enforce it.* 
*for those who have not signed yet, join our group and see the light, it will open your eyes to what we can do together.*


----------



## Dubai bound

*under duress*

The people that think signing and putting under Duress will get them anywhere it will not Select will just send it back and refuse to accept.
and then try there hardball tactics, dont fall for this approach


----------



## Dubai bound

one way & one way only to make them see sense,


----------



## micmonro1

For NEMISIS.....Thank you for being the voice of common sense


----------



## MANUTD

torchowner said:


> So you would like others to do all the hard and dirty work and reap the rewards!:bash:


Don't what your problem is but plEase get over it ?
-- i'm spending my own money already on the TORCH legally which my help the group and wil have no problem sharing if it is helpful to the group and have doNe so already with Micmonroe -- dont quite see where you're coming from pal hno:


----------



## MANUTD

slick2day said:


> Hey torchowner and Manutd....it's fine we
> can all contribute to the group cause in different
> ways.


Agreed , I have appointment with Lawyer re my contract tomorrow and have agreed to ask some questions for the group already -- perhaps TORCHOWNER is in here to stir up trouble i dont know -- but think he should clarify please I am little weary of him /her now ? :nuts:

I just stated i would struggle to lead a group and usually with these things a person will come forward who has some time on their hands to drive the group -- we are very lucky in that respect now at THE POINT with a very dedicated person chairing the OA there and potentially getting results soon


----------



## Mistermark

Dubai bound said:


> Clyde & Co have been working hard and come up with something they think suits them!
> and believe me you will be shocked!


I think whatever the eventual outcome for owners in The Torch and other projects, the conduct of Clyde & Co should be placed in the public domain. Most of us know about the legal 'opinion' they gave on the termination clause in the SPA. But that's not the end of it.

Not so long ago, I received a letter from them informing me that if I breached the Settlement Agreement - a civil matter - they would report me to the Dubai police (presumably for committing a crime). Which raises three possibilities:

1. Breaching a civil agreement is a crime in Dubai. In which case, by having failed to report their own client, the developer, for already having breached that same agreement, they were guilty of concealing a crime; or

2. The law firm knowingly threatened to report me to the Police, despite having no evidence that I had committed a crime; or

3. The firm is ignorant of the basics of UAE law.

Seems to me it must be one of these three things. And I suspect that Dubai bound may also have received some interesting correspondence from the firm. All of which must be somewhat worrying for the partners in the London head office, where lucrative City work could be undermined if their correspondence achieved unintended prominence in any PR activity aimed primarily at the developer...


----------



## jeetha

Removed


----------



## jeetha

.......


----------



## NEMISIS

Rider said:


> So what is your proposed course of action if the developer refuses to grant a handover appointment due the addendum's not being signed?
> 
> How can owners get their keys within the next few weeks without taking legal action against the developer which as we all know could take years.


This is the easy part.

Provided you have fulfilled all of your obligations as per your SPA (which includes final service payments OQOOD fees etc). You simply turn up at SG offices and ask for your keys. There is also one other option that will work that i wont print in public that completely reverses the balance of power.

When they refuse, ask them to confirm why. If the answer is that you have not signed an addendum you simply call the police and lodge a bribery case to be investigated by them. You wont need to go to court. You have a contract that entitles you to the property. There is no need to sign any additional addendum's that give more rights and financial gain to SG. 

*Read your original contracts people clause 5.1*. 



> “provided the buyer has fulfilled his obligations under the terms of this agreement, the buyer shall have the right (and risk) of possession of the property from the completion date and all other rights (and risks) in relation to the property set out in this agreement from the completion date”


This is the mistake the goons from Clyde & Co made in the contract. Thats why the addendum is trying to delete it. 

For me personally i am lucky enough to have a good relationship with a senior police officer in Dubai who heads up the UAE equivalent of SOCA. My best mate has spent the last 3 years training his officers and he is ready and primed to act.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing Rahail's face when he gets the knock.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

So you have the right to rent your apartment if you do not sign? This is contrary to what was said here by someone previously.

This is what Select said about the addendum

"It is your right to deny submitting the required handover documentation but please bear in mind that all such documents have been carefully drafted to protect the interests of all parties involved (i.e. buyer, seller, tenant (if any)) and to protect the interests of the Owners Association for the mutual benefit of all owners in the Torch. "


----------



## MOAF

Dubai bound said:


> yes Select your sales are certainly UNIQUE that is for sure, and great you get so many repeat customers!
> Investors show oct 2011 see you there


HI Dubai bound,

Thanks for letting me know that the SP will be hosting a stand in the investor show in oct 2011,,dont worry i will be there among other investors.

See you soon SP at the show.

MOAF


----------



## DennyCrane

MOAF said:


> HI Dubai bound,
> 
> Thanks for letting me know that the SP will be hosting a stand in the investor show in oct 2011,,dont worry i will be there among other investors.
> 
> See you soon SP at the show.
> 
> MOAF


Join the line!


----------



## MOAF

Hi Guys,

Just been back off holiday, and stopped over in dubai for couple of nights before proceeding to another hoilday destination in the middle April 2011.

So I thought just take a short stroll to the marina have an ice cream and have a look at the Torch "without" an appointment of course.

So I went to the Torch building reception & spoke to the security guy & asked if i could view my apartment as a one off, he said No way, under NO circumstances can I do that as they were advised by SG/SP not to allow any one in.

So being persisted as I am, I kept moaning at the security guy until he gave in and called the project manager a indian national, who was reponsible for the delivering the project before 1st May 2011, he worked for SG

Had a quick chat with him, he hummed and harred and then said go on then, be very very quick.

So myself and my 10 year child went accompained with the indian DCE worker & viewed the apartment.

All the communal areas had no lights lit at all, except the emergencey lights, could not see a great deal, probbaly SG trying to save some money here. 

Anyway I entered the apartment & have to say looked "acceptable" not the 5 Star quality & finished they promised us, the whole apartment appeared to be painted again and looked fresh, but the water was connected to the bathroom only but not the kitchen ???.

The bathroom looked very dark even though we had the lights on.???

So I left after 5 minutes or so being in the apartment, but did not test any appliance or facilities in the apartment.

As we were taking the lift down back to reception, the DCE worker advised me that all apartments will be subjected to a deep clean in a couple of weeks by a external sub contractor.

I reached reception and gave a heartfelt thanks to the project worker for letting me in to view my apartment, & we had a frank discussion about the quality of the apartments & the Torch buliding and the said without doubt that the quality has suffered slightly as it was trying quickly as possible to complete the project before the 1st of May 2011 deadline as they were major implications if SG& DCE did not complete the project.

Sorry Folks I forgot to take the camera with me left it behind at the hotel.

BTW, I will not be signing the Variation Addenums & also I am on the LPP & over the five years, I have had 6 late payments by a Maximum of 2 -3 days late into selects escrow account, ie, uk bank holidays,forex company delivering the payments a day or so late , so they F***ing charged me a late fees of Dhs 4450.???? this is out of order for being 3 days late on 6 different occassion in 5 years.

These guys have got to be stopped.

MOAF


----------



## Dubai bound

not only you cant rent if you dont sign you cant take apartment till 2021 when you have finished payment plan!


----------



## shakka

Dubai_Steve said:


> So you have the right to rent your apartment if you do not sign? This is contrary to what was said here by someone previously.
> 
> This is what Select said about the addendum
> 
> "It is your right to deny submitting the required handover documentation but please bear in mind that all such documents have been carefully drafted to protect the interests of all parties involved (i.e. buyer, seller, tenant (if any)) and to protect the interests of the Owners Association for the mutual benefit of all owners in the Torch. "


Oh that makes it ok then. Yeah great changes everything. Where do I sign?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Dubai bound said:


> not only you cant rent if you dont sign you cant take apartment till 2021 when you have finished payment plan!


Are you sure, that seems contrary to Nemesis' post?



> “provided the buyer has fulfilled his obligations under the terms of this agreement, the buyer shall have the right (and risk) of possession of the property from the completion date and all other rights (and risks) in relation to the property set out in this agreement from the completion date”


----------



## Dubai_Steve

MOAF said:


> As we were taking the lift down back to reception, the DCE worker advised me that all apartments will be subjected to a deep clean in a couple of weeks by a external sub contractor.


I thought they already started that according to PrincessTower's post where he said they were cleaning one floor per day with mops etc. Perhaps they are 50% done with that already?

Sounds like final cert. has not been issued otherwise lights should be on in communal areas. Interesting you said there are major implications if not completed by 1st May, yet there is still not a final cert.?


----------



## Rider

^^ One major implication which springs to mind is them billing owners service charges from 1 May which would be illegal if the building is not available for occupation.


----------



## Dubai bound

*positive*

yes they have sent out letters today stating that they are not forcing you to sign but if you dont sign refer to 10.3 of spa and it states that you cant take apartment till full purchase price paid in 2021!
seems they hae there own special way of reading there own contracts, but thats what clyde & co have come up with
they are only being reasonable and letting you take possession before you have paid, or allowing you to rent to assist its valuable investors, 
nice people they are!

they sink lower and lower


----------



## Dubai bound

*yes*

yes they will have a lot of service charges to pay, no doubt clyde co are looking for a way out of that one next!


----------



## MOAF

Dubai bound said:


> yes they will have a lot of service charges to pay, no doubt clyde co are looking for a way out of that one next!


:lol::lol::lol: I wonder what the annual service charge SG would then set


----------



## Rider

Dubai bound said:


> yes they have sent out letters today stating that they are not forcing you to sign but if you dont sign refer to 10.3 of spa and it states that you cant take apartment till full purchase price paid in 2021!
> seems they hae there own special way of reading there own contracts, but thats what clyde & co have come up with
> they are only being reasonable and letting you take possession before you have paid, or allowing you to rent to assist its valuable investors,
> nice people they are!
> 
> they sink lower and lower


What about SPP owners? My apartment is now 100% paid so does this mean I can get my keys without signing?


----------



## CAJ

Just received this from select





We can confirm that if you wish to settle at any point after the handover, the outstanding payable will be calculated as per the schedule 2 of the Sales & Purchase Agreement(SPA). Whatever that you have paid as per the schedule with whatever is outstanding. Please note if you have not paid any installment on time, the interest may apply for that installement depending on the number of days it was late.


----------



## Dubai bound

dont hold your breath Rider, they probably have some other reason up there sleeve!


----------



## mackie1964

CAJ said:


> Just received this from select
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We can confirm that if you wish to settle at any point after the handover, the outstanding payable will be calculated as per the schedule 2 of the Sales & Purchase Agreement(SPA). Whatever that you have paid as per the schedule with whatever is outstanding. Please note if you have not paid any installment on time, the interest may apply for that installement depending on the number of days it was late.


And I have many letters and emails here from Select telling me that they would pay me full compensation and will not claim Force Majeure.

They were lying on both counts. Do not trust anyone. :cheers:

They will get what they deserve .............. soon


----------



## NickBoyC

NEMISIS said:


> This is the easy part.
> 
> Provided you have fulfilled all of your obligations as per your SPA (which includes final service payments OQOOD fees etc). You simply turn up at SG offices and ask for your keys. There is also one other option that will work that i wont print in public that completely reverses the balance of power.
> 
> When they refuse, ask them to confirm why. If the answer is that you have not signed an addendum you simply call the police and lodge a bribery case to be investigated by them. You wont need to go to court. You have a contract that entitles you to the property. There is no need to sign any additional addendum's that give more rights and financial gain to SG.
> 
> Read your original contracts people clause 5.1.
> 
> This is the mistake the goons from Clyde & Co made in the contract. Thats why the addendum is trying to delete it.
> 
> For me personally i am lucky enough to have a good relationship with a senior police officer in Dubai who heads up the UAE equivalent of SOCA. My best mate has spent the last 3 years training his officers and he is ready and primed to act.
> 
> I'm actually looking forward to seeing Rahail's face when he gets the knock.


So did you pay all the money they asked for including service charge, chiller fees, admin fees etc as soon as they asked for it meaning you've complied with the spa? Have I not complied with the spa by not paying this money yet? Not sure anyone should have paid anything until this certificate has been issued?


----------



## Rider

*Service charge refund. *

Clearly the Developer wishes people to believe that the building was ready on 1 May. This cover story about the first 2 weeks of May being fully booked is utter nonsense. 

Are they going to issue revised statements of account to everyone showing the correct start date from which the service charges should be levied? This lot have no competence, class or morals.


----------



## Dubai bound

you can not trust anything this group says or even puts in email, you need everything varified on letterhead, and worded watertight, they work on leaving all there wording open to interpretation< meaning different people read it different ways, which leaves it open, get everything documented watertight then make your own personal judgement if you are going to sign or not.


----------



## MANUTD

You defintely need to see the COMPLETION CERTIFICATE BEFORE PAYING ANY SERVICE CHARGES OQOOD ETC -- will be interesting when that is issued officially but i will want copy and be able to check my snags have been done AND check that size of my apt is same as the SPA says 

You would interested to hear that some developers are trying to charge for more than 40% more than is being delivered 

I can't comment on what SG are delivering with regrad to apt size but RERA hold records at office and they may just differ from what SG are telling you ?? -- some very reputable developers have been caught out inadvertantly with these independantly obtained meassurements and refunded differences to investors (obviously affects service charges land reg fee too !! )


----------



## NickBoyC

MANUTD said:


> You defintely need to see the COMPLETION CERTIFICATE BEFORE PAYING ANY SERVICE CHARGES OQOOD ETC -- will be interesting when that is issued officially but i will want copy and be able to check my snags have been done AND check that size of my apt is same as the SPA says
> 
> You would interested to hear that some developers are trying to charge for more than 40% more than is being delivered
> 
> I can't comment on what SG are delivering with regrad to apt size but RERA hold records at office and they may just differ from what SG are telling you ?? -- some very reputable developers have been caught out inadvertantly with these independantly obtained meassurements and refunded differences to investors (obviously affects service charges land reg fee too !! )


Do we also need to challenge the amount they are asking for in respect to service charges and chiller charges. Seems to me they've pulled these figures out of the air and I'm also reading they should have set us up with an oa so real residents participate in employing the service companies we want to use.

Manutd have you asked sg for proof of apartment size based on this independent survey they were supposed to have had?


----------



## FlyJim

*Title?*

Folks,

Has anyone had any problems regarding title of their property?

I got divorced, and it has joint names on the SPA, Select say I will have to get legal assistance, pay the Land Department 1% TWICE (since I would be a buyer and a seller), just to cross off my ex-wife's name!
In effect, I would be selling the flat to myself!

I have emailed the Land Dept to see under what name/title the apartment is actually currently registered. No reply yet.
I have a feeling the registered title may still be Torch Select since i am on the LPP.
This is another reason to with-hold the Oqood charge for the time-being. 

Many thanks for any advice and keep up the good work!


----------



## FWIW

Reading the pages of excellent information everyone is sharing here, I have a quick question for Torch LPP owners:
Even if you have never missed a LPP payment (and are fully up-to-date), are SP/SG charging you 'late charges' if the the LPP did not go into their bank account on the 1st day of the LPP month e.g. bank transfer delays, forex issues, etc?

Is this what will happen to Bay Central investors too?


----------



## allan wright

*AJ*

It is very frustrating that whatever query you have there is no response. I am still waiting for a reply to an email sent on the 18th April. The only time you seem to get a response is when you ask how to pay money into one of their accounts.

As there has now been a loss of trust (understatement) I will be severing links with any linked or recommended companies. These will include Moneycorp and the recommended letting agency who I have yet to hear from. I have no problem with them at the moment but no doubt Select will receive a commission of some sort.

Being on the LLP I am now looking at ways to fully pay off the 2 X 1 bed apartments. This will put me in a better position not to sign the contracts, it should reduce the cost of the 1% law 13 charge and save a 1% charge should I decide to sell. The main reason however is that I would not want to deal with Select on an ongoing basis. This will reduce it to the service contract until such a time that an OA can take over.

Just for information: as per the terms of the contract I have informed Select that there is now a dispute between us so that arbitration should take place within 20 days. This was sent on the 5th May and unsurprisingly there has been no response todate.

I will update if any news.

To help myself and other owners: Does anyone have a sale going through. If so what prices are actually being achieved. Also does anyone have a letting agent that they would actually recommend. I see also that rents seem to be around 75,000 UAD's. Out of this what service charges would the owner be responsible for.


----------



## UAEasy

Dubai bound said:


> yes they have sent out letters today stating that they are not forcing you to sign b*ut if you dont sign refer to 10.3 of spa and it states that you cant take apartment till full purchase price paid in 2021!*
> seems they hae there own special way of reading there own contracts, but thats what clyde & co have come up with
> they are only being reasonable and letting you take possession before you have paid, or allowing you to rent to assist its valuable investors,
> nice people they are!
> 
> they sink lower and lower


What is the reasoning quoted in the SPA for not getting possession until 2021? Is it a feasible/legal reason?
(Sorry, not a Torch owner so haven't seen the contract).


----------



## allan wright

People on the long payment plan are not due to have fully paid for their apartments until 2021. So this is when it is assumed they will get their keys unless they sign away all their rights.


----------



## NEMISIS

allan wright said:


> People on the long payment plan are not due to have fully paid for their apartments until 2021. So this is when it is assumed they will get their keys unless they sign away all their rights.


^^
INCORRECT AND MISLEADING INFORMATION.

LPP investors are entitled to take delivery of their units as long as all LPP payments are up to date.

Clause 10.3a last line "pursuant to the provisions of this agreement" this means the schedule of payments to be adhered to.

Seems like lots of new users are spreading misinformation around here. 

Its also worth remembering that any units that are owned by the developer or not handed over to the investor "for whatever reason" are liable to have service charges paid by the developer. This could be a costly experience if all LPP investors (275) refuse the addendum as they are contractually entitled to do.

REMEMBER if Select refuse your keys due to non signing of addendum's they are in breach of contract clause 5.1 Ensure you meet your obligations and as long as SG continue to breach the original contract they are just causing more damage to themselves.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

NEMISIS said:


> Its also worth remembering that any units that are owned by the developer or not handed over to the investor "for whatever reason" are liable to have service charges paid by the developer. This could be a costly experience if all LPP investors (275) refuse the addendum as they are contractually entitled to do.


Interesting point, this means Select would be liable for up to around £1m per year in service charges if they did not hand over the apartments but I suspect they could hand over the apartments but not allow usage until 2021?




Dubai bound said:


> they have sent out letters today stating that they are not forcing you to sign but if you dont sign refer to 10.3 of spa and it states that you cant take apartment till full purchase price paid in 2021!


----------



## glover

*a dubai-based lawyer, Ludmila Yamalova, answered a question about service charges in the link below. her answer clearly shows that Select violated the law when they set the Torch's service charges the way they did. *

"1: At least as of September 2010, all service charges must be approved by Rera. This is mandated by the Rera Circular of 2010, which states that all “annual service charges must be approved by Rera.”
Furthermore, prior to collecting services charges, all developers are required to: 1) register the project and all units with the Land Department, 2) call owners to a General Assembly meeting to elect the Board and 3) register the Owner’s Association with Rera.

Therefore, legally speaking, only those developers, who have registered Owners Associations and obtained Rera approvals, are allowed to issue service charges.
In reality, however, most developers continue to issue service charges without having complied with the Rera requirements.

In such situations, it is advisable that the owners communicate developer’s non-compliance to Rera, be it through the Interim Board or by individual owners."

http://www.emirates247.com/columns/...ect-here-are-your-options-2011-05-04-1.328223


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ Seems then that criminal charges could be filed against Select Group if they do not sign the 3rd addendum.


----------



## mackie1964

^^ Just to add to this. RERA told us that they will investigate and do something about it if enough investors complained directly to them. 

Do the right thing and stand up for your rights :cheers:


----------



## CAJ

mackie1964 said:


> ^^ Just to add to this. RERA told us that they will investigate and do something about it if enough investors complained directly to them.
> 
> Do the right thing and stand up for your rights :cheers:


Any disgruntled investors should write to RERA expressing their concerns regarding the way in which we have been treated as investors/purchasers of the torch

Anyone can visit the RERA website and register, and then send an e-mailfrom the website raising questions and advising them of the current situation

As Mackie says, as many of us as possible should express our concerns direct to RERA


----------



## micmonro1

*RERA complaint*



CAJ said:


> Any disgruntled investors should write to RERA expressing their concerns regarding the way in which we have been treated as investors/purchasers of the torch
> 
> Anyone can visit the RERA website and register, and then send an e-mailfrom the website raising questions and advising them of the current situation
> 
> As Mackie says, as many of us as possible should express our concerns direct to RERA


*As I said all along, Marwan Bin Ghilaita gave me his word that they are happy to help, don't believe otherwise. I have proved this by getting 2 prompt responses in a matter of days (read my previous post of the direct response from the CEO of RERA).Thank you CAJ and Madkie64 for confirming and re-confirming this.

Message is simple DON'T PAY OR SIGN INSTEAD COMPLAIN TO RERA.
For those who have paid under pressure, you too can still write to RERA that you were unhappy about paying the service charge when there is no evidence of it being approved by RERA. 
*


----------



## ramzy

Will a direct email to the CEO help? Or does it have to go via Rera website?


----------



## micmonro1

*RERA complaint*



ramzy said:


> Will a direct email to the CEO help? Or does it have to go via Rera website?


for Ramzy and everyone else, please complain via the website or write to RERA by email to Legel dept 
*[email protected]*

Note that legal is mis-spelt on the address so if it bounces back, re-send it with correct spelling.


----------



## CAJ

ramzy said:


> Will a direct email to the CEO help? Or does it have to go via Rera website?


the more the better


----------



## NickBoyC

I've just emailed RERA with all the relevant points as I see them today.

Looks like with all the conversations around courier's and postal services a fair number of people are chosing to sign the addendums.

Coming back to some previous comments is the consensus that anyone who has not yet paid the service charges, Ogood admin fee, Affection Plan Charges is in breach of the original SPA? 

Thoughts please?


----------



## micmonro1

PERHAPS SG ARE IN A RUSH.......OPEN YOUR EYES EVERYONE

*Law may empower investors to cancel contracts and get refunds*

Real Estate Investor Protection Law is likely to be unveiled this year, says bin Mijrin
By Parag Deulgaonkar
Published Monday, February 14, 2011

The law will address grounds for cancellation such as a developer's refusal to link payments to construction milestones. (AGENCIES)
The Real Estate Investor Protection Law is likely to be unveiled this year, which will empower investors to seek cancellation of contracts if the developer fails to fulfill his contractual obligations, Director-General of Dubai Land Department has said.

In an article published in Al Bayan, Sultan Butti bin Mijrin said: “The new law consists of approximately 30 articles, all in the interest of the investors, providing them a complete and comprehensive legal support to protect their purchases of properties.

The law is due for release this year.”In January, Emirates 24/7 had reported that the law was due for release this year.

The law will address grounds for cancellation such as a developer's refusal to link payments to construction milestones, or if he makes material changes to specifications.

It will also deal with refund or replacement issues in the event of a material defect and financial penalties for delay in delivery.

Mijrin said: “The law will provide the grounds that give the investor the right to resort to cancel the sales and purchase contract with the developer and even recover dues in full.”

Although the Land Department has created a mediation committee that offers remedy only if the developer and the investor agree to settle their issues amicably. In case of disagreement, the issue is to be resolved through the court.

According to Ludmila Yamalova, Managing Partner of HPL Yamalova & Plewka, filing a formal case is an expensive and time-consuming proposition.

The overall cost includes court fee of 7.5 per cent of the value of the case or a maximum of Dh30,000, per contract, which is to be paid before filing of the case; translation costs as every document submitted to the court has to be translated into Arabic and, finally, the attorney cost, which varies greatly, but is required to be paid up front.

“Most of the time, the minimum expense of litigating a case is Dh150,000,” she added.

A number of investors have been aggressively forming groups and have been petitioning Real Estate Regulatory Agency (Rera) to take action against erring developers. Rera has said it has cancelled 202 projects and expects the number to rise this year.

http://www.emirates247.com/property...contracts-and-get-refunds-2011-02-14-1.356178


----------



## mackie1964

CAJ said:


> the more the better


Please write Direct to Mr. Bin Galita :cheers:

He does read his emails, He assures me that he does!


----------



## Sheltie

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ Hope you added the PO Box otherwise you may need to resend.


My papers arrived today in Dubai. They were sent recorded delivery with Royal Mail for about £8.00 on the 28th. There was the holiday weekend so it probably took about 10 days.


----------



## Sheltie

Forgot to add I didn't have a PO number on it.


----------



## glover

Did Select do the things outlined below before it asked owners to pay the service charges!!! 



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## micmonro1

*glover*
Thank you, that is why I am asking people to write and complain to RERA. Also, with regards to the threat SG and whoever that represent them has made about withholding the handover of the units to the buyers its simple, *read the recent Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010, which is signed by Sheikh Mohamed Bin Rashid Al Maktum *

"the Law that was expanded upon relates to registration upon completion. Previously, a developer could not refuse to hand over or register a unit in the name of the purchaser on the Real Estate Register once a project had been completed or a completion certificate had been issued by the relevant authorities, if a purchaser had discharged all its contractual obligations. *The Resolution adds that now, the developer cannot refuse even if there were other financial obligations owed by the purchaser to the developer which did not arise in connection with the sale contract."*

For those decent people who have faith in what I say believe me SG are trying to cause panic amongst investors with these tactics. Its the oldest tricks (*cause panic-buy cheap- sell high .....and make a huge profit*) and they will employ any tactics to entrap you. 
If you read any advise to sign "under duress" *please please ignore it* or call a Lawyer and ask them about what they think, the correct advise will be what MANUTD's Lawyer has told him *"Ignore it"*. 
They will get SP to pose as your trusted friend who will help you get rid of the unit but in reality they will feed you stories that your unit will worth cheaper than when you bought it. Another lie as the property market has began to recover. 
Don't fall for it. Remember one advise I was always given
*Know your rights*
read this link:
http://blogs.thenational.ae/crane_country/Property Law News Bulletin 12 May 2010(2).pdf


----------



## Why Dubai

Has anyone received any further correspondence from SG after stating that they are refusing to sign ??


----------



## Rider

^^ I paid the final 10% and received a receipt by email from [email protected]. I responded and asked them to confirm if I could make a handover appointment without signing the first addendum. I also asked about the formation of OA and queried the service charges (which I have yet to pay). They do not seem to be responding to queries. 

Is anyone still planning to challenge the Force Majeure claim and seek compensation as per the SPA?

Also, how is everyone planning to take possession of their units without a handover appointment? Is anyone planning to turn up at SG's office and demand their keys?


----------



## Caribarra

Hi All

I had a conversation with a representative of the Handover team, she said that the charges etc. have been sent to Rera so they await the decision. Meanwhile they want handovers to commence, charges next year will begin from the completion notice date only.

This does make snse however, she also said that the pre-payment plan would still be in force. She sent this information in an e-mail but forgot to put in writting about the pre-payment details so I now await another e-mail.

Make of it what you will, but why don't they just make a statement so everyone knows whats happening??????????????????????????


----------



## Rider

Caribarra said:


> Hi All
> 
> I had a conversation with a representative of the Handover team, she said that the charges etc. have been sent to Rera so they await the decision. Meanwhile they want handovers to commence, charges next year will begin from the completion notice date only.
> 
> This does make snse however, she also said that the pre-payment plan would still be in force. She sent this information in an e-mail but forgot to put in writting about the pre-payment details so I now await another e-mail.
> 
> Make of it what you will, but why don't they just make a statement so everyone knows whats happening??????????????????????????


Thanks for the update. 

What about this year's charges from 1 May until the completion date (15 May or whenever)? We should not have to pay for this if the units can't be occupied during this time.

Also, why are they commenting on what will be happening next year? A bit presumptious of them to think that they'll still be around.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Rider said:


> ^^ I paid the final 10% and received a receipt by email from [email protected]. I responded and asked them to confirm if I could make a handover appointment without signing the first addendum. I also asked about the formation of OA and queried the service charges (which I have yet to pay). They do not seem to be responding to queries.
> 
> Is anyone still planning to challenge the Force Majeure claim and seek compensation as per the SPA?
> 
> Also, how is everyone planning to take possession of their units without a handover appointment? Is anyone planning to turn up at SG's office and demand their keys?


If you not planning on challenging the FM then you may as well sign the first addendum as you need the number change. Otherwise you will need to create a different variant of the first addendum.

The 2nd addendum for LPP buyers is the worrying one.


----------



## rbuster8

EMAIL ADDRESS FOR RERA PROVIDED BY micmonro ie.. [email protected] RETURNED AS FAILED TO DELIVER, I TRIED TWICE.


----------



## Cool banana

rbuster8 said:


> EMAIL ADDRESS FOR RERA PROVIDED BY micmonro ie.. [email protected] RETURNED AS FAILED TO DELIVER, I TRIED TWICE.


Try this:

http://www.rpdubai.com/rpdubai/home/contactus.do?lang=0

additionally you can also try mailing:

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

hope your voice gets heard. GL with your undertaking.

:banana:


----------



## micmonro1

*Complaint to RERA*



Cool banana said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://www.rpdubai.com/rpdubai/home/contactus.do?lang=0
> 
> additionally you can also try mailing:
> 
> [email protected]
> [email protected]
> [email protected]
> [email protected]
> 
> hope your voice gets heard. GL with your undertaking.
> 
> :banana:


Thank you cool banana, I think his email box is either full, or his email box is being deliberately jammed to prevent people from sending emails. 
To all torch owners, 
try icomplain on RERA's website or find the postal address for RERA and post your complaint.
Don't give up


----------



## Anjam

micmonro1 said:


> I think his email box is either full, or his email box is being deliberately jammed to prevent people from sending emails.
> Don't give up


^^ Not everything is a conspiracy! Have you considered that you may have the wrong email address? 

rera.ae is a false domain.


----------



## Imre

^^

This email is better 



Imre said:


> Try this one:
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> I found here:
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=179383&page=27


----------



## micmonro1

Please read this article,

*Developer In Dubai To Refund AED 7.5 Million To Property Investor*

The Dubai real estate courts are starting to mean business if the most recent ruling to be announced is anything to go by. The latest problem to make the news involves Law No 13, which states that all off plan property that is purchased needs to be registered at the Land Registry Department within 60 days of an agreement being made. If a developer fails to register the property within the 60 day time period, the deal is thus considered void, as Mizin Properties has now found to its cost. At a time when developers are failing to attract freehold property buyers’ with falling property prices and difficulty obtaining credit, the last thing a developer need is to be losing property deals it has already closed on. However this now looks to be the situation facing Minzin properties, the developer behind freehold property project Remraam. This isn’t the 1st time Remraam has hit the news, as its previous CEO is now in court on charges of bribery and fraud, so it could no doubt do without the latest these latest problems.


The situation is a fairly simple one and unfolded as such. An as unnamed investor made a large purchases’ of apartment units at Mizin’s Remraam freehold development in April 2008. Now, as specified by property Law Number 13, Mizin should have then registered the land within the 60 day time period. However in January this year, the investor found that the apartments had in fact not been registered in his name, and therefore according to Law No 13, the deal was void. And now the court has made the ruling for the complaint registered on the 21st of January, and it isn’t good news for Minzin Properties! Unfortunately for the company, the investor in question didn’t just purchase a small about of residential freehold property, but had bought around AED 7.5 millions worth! And all of this now had to be refunded to the investor due to the failure to register the land! However it gets worse, as the court also ruled that another 9% of that sum should also be paid to the investor to cover legal costs and damages, leaving Minzin with a payment of over AED 8 million to make! Quite a costly mistake for something as small as registering the land in Dubai!

link:
http://www.realtyna.com/dubai_real_...und-aed-7.5-million-to-property-investor.html


----------



## NickBoyC

Is there a way of confirming what registrations have been made to date with the Dubai Land Department? Can I contact them directly or do they only speak with Developers?


----------



## Anjam

NickBoyC said:


> Is there a way of confirming what registrations have been made to date with the Dubai Land Department? Can I contact them directly or do they only speak with Developers?


Why don't you just ask Select for your Law 13 registration Certificate?


----------



## NickBoyC

Didn't know this was an option. Have Select provided you with this certificate them


----------



## rbuster8

Imre said:


> ^^
> 
> This email is better


yes, this is the correct email address, i got an extemely prompt and polite reply,, he said "Thanks for your contact. registration and handover of the unit is part of the land dept services. I will cc Mr Hisham and Mansoor who can help. And as rules no one can force you to sign anything against your will. And service charge need to be opaid after approval from RERA to keep the shared area of the building operating and it can be paid in installments and it should not stop the handover of the unit. I hope this is clear"
Best regards
Eng Marwan Bin Ghulaita
CEO
RERA

PLEASE EMAIL MR HISHAM AND MR MANSOOR;
[email protected]
[email protected]
COME ON PEOPLE LETS MAKE THE EFFORT!!


----------



## DennyCrane

rbuster8 said:


> yes, this is the correct email address, i got an extemely prompt and polite reply,, he said "Thanks for your contact. registration and handover of the unit is part of the land dept services. I will cc Mr Hisham and Mansoor who can help. And as rules no one can force you to sign anything against your will. And service charge need to be opaid after approval from RERA to keep the shared area of the building operating and it can be paid in installments and it should not stop the handover of the unit. I hope this is clear"
> Best regards
> Eng Marwan Bin Ghulaita
> CEO
> RERA
> 
> PLEASE EMAIL MR HISHAM AND MR MANSOOR;
> [email protected]
> [email protected]
> COME ON PEOPLE LETS MAKE THE EFFORT!!


Thank you for this vital information from all Bay Central investors! The addendum can go where the sun don't shine......


----------



## Anjam

NickBoyC said:


> Didn't know this was an option. Have Select provided you with this certificate them


Yes they have sent me a certificate showing the registration of the original sale. It lists the 1% fees I sent along with the 1% the developer has paid.


----------



## mackie1964

*Please Write to RERA*

Ladies and Gents; Please write to RERA and especially to Mr Marwan Bin Ghalita, the CEO and the Legal department. It does not matter if you have signed, about to sign or not going to sign. Register your worry, complains and any issues in a nice polite and straight to the point email. No threats or childish Scoopy type attitude please! 

This will help us immensely in the near future. 

I am not part of any groups and will not be part of any groups but do yourselves a favour and stand up for your rights, even if it's a bit late.

We can’t let those crooks screw us up for ever, can we?

It will pay off in the very near future :cheers:


----------



## scoobudubai

mackie1964 said:


> Ladies and Gents; Please write to RERA and especially to Mr Marwan Bin Ghalita, the CEO and the Legal department. It does not matter if you have signed, about to sign or not going to sign. Register your worry, complains and any issues in a nice polite and straight to the point email. No threats or childish Scoopy type attitude please!
> 
> This will help us immensely in the near future.
> 
> I am not part of any groups and will not be part of any groups but do yourselves a favour and stand up for your rights, even if it's a bit late.
> 
> We can’t let those crooks screw us up for ever, can we?
> 
> It will pay off in the very near future :cheers:


My 2 shillings - DO NOT send your next payment to Select, send to the escrow account as usual -UNTIL- Torch Select Ltd. either couriers of faxes to you (as per clause 17) a statement that the building is complete and also stating the completion date. The "COMPLETION NOTICE" is just a trick to deceive you.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

:nuts: ^^ Final cert has been issued and more handovers tomorrow. First tenants moving in in a few days.


----------



## Dubai bound

*Tenants*

Would that be according to louise at select by any chance!!!!!!


----------



## rbuster8

Dubai_Steve said:


> :nuts: ^^ Final cert has been issued and more handovers tomorrow. First tenants moving in in a few days.


How do you know this?


----------



## Anjam

rbuster8 said:


> How do you know this?


There is a whole wide world outside these forums where people interact and actually talk 

Select called with an update on the certificate and a couple of the owners have received offers on their apartments.


----------



## Dubai bound

*Anjam*

Is that why you spend so much time on these forums, facebook etc etc, or is that just to post what a great deal we all have and should be so happy to deal with select!

And what offers would that be on the apartments, is that the ones I hear about, where developer is offering peanuts to buy back??

Or do you mean the ones that Tenants are lining up to rent in such a wonderful building! 

Come on Anjam do us a favour!


----------



## Anjam

Dubai bound said:


> Is that why you spend so much time on these forums, facebook etc etc, or is that just to post what a great deal we all have and should be so happy to deal with select!
> 
> And what offers would that be on the apartments, is that the ones I hear about, where developer is offering peanuts to buy back??
> 
> Or do you mean the ones that Tenants are lining up to rent in such a wonderful building!
> 
> Come on Anjam do us a favour!


I don't need to spend any time on forums or Facebook to get or share the information I need.....there's an app for that! The SSC one is rather brilliant.

However I do spend most if not all of my waking hours connected to the internet in some form or another, it's my job and my livelihood and is of no concern to you.

Please refer me to a post where I have said _*you*_ have a had a great deal with Select and *you* should be happy? I don't think anyone can be happy with Select, those that bought in the early days may have had a good price but have waited 6 years and those that bought later paid twice what their apartment is worth today.

Where have I said people are lining up to rent? I am talking about 2/3 units so hardly a stampede. Agents always have a few people on the books who are desperate to move for some reason or other. Once these have dried up we (including me) will be lucky to get a viewing let alone an offer with the number of apartments available. 

There are at least two apartments under offer and I hope for the owner's sakes they will complete by the end of this month, it may well be for peanuts but it will give the owners a chance to put their lives back together. Most people have no idea of the hardship and misery this investment has caused some. The diatribe on this forum is driving some people insane with anonymous posters advising what people should and shouldn't do with their life savings. Anyone following investment advice on a forum is on a hiding to nothing but unfortunately there are many who are (or were when they bought) new to property investment and find it difficult to filter information.

Any information I share has come directly from individuals I have come to know personally over the years, these are real people and not someone hiding behind an avatar. I am not going to divulge details as it is not my place to do so, believe what you want and then move on.

So that is why I post what I post, it's information from people I trust and who trust me and hopefully brings some balance into the equation.

You always have the option of ignoring my posts.


----------



## MOAF

Just received a very propmt E-mail back from Marwan (CEO of RERA) and he has assured me personally that he will look in the dealings of the company concerned & RERA (CEO) has advised me that I can not be forced into signing anything,, period....

SG/SP, Take Note this will not go away...


MOAF


----------



## MOAF

RedWayne28thfloor said:


> MOAF all these and other cloudy issues with addendums is the reason I will not sign anything like this as recommended by my legal representation and RERA CEO.


RedWayne28thfloor, good on you mate, SG have taken the us investors for a big ride but not anymore, I am also an investor in pacific in RAK, which is a joint venture between Select property & Select Group, I wonder what they have in store for us there with regards to additional addendums, I assume "Select property" will play same blame game again & blame it on Select Group.

I wish I never invested with these companys, just bloodly stress, if you ask me.

MOAF


----------



## torchowner

mackie1964 said:


> I will disagree only on this occasion / this case. You comment is valid otherwise.
> 
> The CEO and his colleagues are happy to receive and respond to emails. They disagree that RERA is useless and wish to prove otherwise but people apparently have not been contacting them direct. Here is a chance for everyone with an issue related to RERA to take up. They care about the reputation of their country and let us support them helping us eliminating some of the fraudsters, crooks, extortionate and totally illegal demands. :cheers:
> 
> This is just the start, Select (all of them) have gone too far as far as I am concerned. The greed has taken over and will bring them down. Some other forumer sent me some documentation over the last few days that are totally shocking. I will put it to good use at the right time.
> 
> *It does not matter if you signed, about to sign or not going to sign. Stand up for your rights without jeopardising your investment. Crooks can't win forever!*


Please pm your email address and I will mail certain information that will make your hair to rise and remain in that state for sometime.


----------



## torchowner

mackie1964 said:


> I will disagree only on this occasion / this case. You comment is valid otherwise.
> 
> The CEO and his colleagues are happy to receive and respond to emails. They disagree that RERA is useless and wish to prove otherwise but people apparently have not been contacting them direct. Here is a chance for everyone with an issue related to RERA to take up. They care about the reputation of their country and let us support them helping us eliminating some of the fraudsters, crooks, extortionate and totally illegal demands. :cheers:
> 
> This is just the start, Select (all of them) have gone too far as far as I am concerned. The greed has taken over and will bring them down. Some other forumer sent me some documentation over the last few days that are totally shocking. I will put it to good use at the right time.
> 
> *It does not matter if you signed, about to sign or not going to sign. Stand up for your rights without jeopardising your investment. Crooks can't win forever!*


Please pm your email address and I will mail certain information that will make your hair to rise and remain in that state for sometime


----------



## FlyJim

*Furniture pack etc.*

I too have emailed the 3 main addresses (inc the legal dept. one), no reply yet, though. 

I have also received emails from the furniture pack company who are ready soon for delivery, however if you don't have a handover (with air-con switched ON, they say!), then they can't deliver.

So, if you don't pay the service charge/sign the addendums/register for elec and water, then you can't get the furniture in either!

Good luck everybody with your emails to the relevant people...


----------



## gerald.d

mackie1964 said:


> I will disagree only on this occasion / this case. You comment is valid otherwise.
> 
> The CEO and his colleagues are happy to receive and respond to emails.


I'm not disputing this - of course share the email addresses amongst yourselves as much as possible, but it remains bad form to post them on a public message board.


----------



## Why Dubai

What is the consensus, for those on the LPP, re the next payment ??


----------



## Dubai_Steve

I suggest a mod removes the emails with a comment to PM mackie if they are required.


----------



## FlyJim

Why Dubai said:


> What is the consensus, for those on the LPP, re the next payment ??




I assume keep paying the quarterly payments (to the new account).
That way you are still sticking with your agreed SPA.


----------



## micmonro1

*Well said Mackei*



mackie1964 said:


> I will disagree only on this occasion / this case. You comment is valid otherwise.
> 
> The CEO and his colleagues are happy to receive and respond to emails. They disagree that RERA is useless and wish to prove otherwise but people apparently have not been contacting them direct. Here is a chance for everyone with an issue related to RERA to take up. They care about the reputation of their country and let us support them helping us eliminating some of the fraudsters, crooks, extortionate and totally illegal demands. :cheers:
> 
> This is just the start, Select (all of them) have gone too far as far as I am concerned. The greed has taken over and will bring them down. Some other forumer sent me some documentation over the last few days that are totally shocking. I will put it to good use at the right time.
> 
> *It does not matter if you signed, about to sign or not going to sign. Stand up for your rights without jeopardising your investment. Crooks can't win forever!*


Thank you Mackei, :banana:


----------



## Anjam

mackie1964 said:


> *It does not matter if you signed, about to sign or not going to sign. Stand up for your rights without jeopardising your investment. Crooks can't win forever!*


:applause:


----------



## Why Dubai

I have emailed Select asking where to make the LPP payment, having not signed the addendums....... but no response to date.


----------



## NEMISIS

Why Dubai said:


> I have emailed Select asking where to make the LPP payment, having not signed the addendums....... but no response to date.


They will advise you to pay all future LPP payments into the new account outside of Escrow.

I have been advised personally by the head of RERA and also a senior partner of a law firm in Dubai not to pay any money relating to off plan property into anything other than an ESCROW account at least until you have received official confirmation that the building is complete and no longer constitutes OFF-PLAN.

SG will of course insist that you pay into the new account as the building is complete, even though there is no written conformation or official completion certificate available for investors.

Contractually you are simply required to meet your LPP payments. Paying into a non Escrow account simply makes life for SG easier with no benefit to you as an investor whatsoever.


----------



## 234sale

The completion certificate can be issued on the understanding that on going works will be completed. Though until this time,, the building isn't officially complete.


Can be another 3 months to finish the outstanding works..

Tecom if visited will explain all..


----------



## hawki

*Brilliant letter and very fair!!! I will not be signing the addendum's--- select went too far this time by insulting my intelligence !*

RERA
Legal Department
Land Department Building, 4th Floor
Bani Yas Road
Deira
Po Box 1166
Dubai, UAE

2011 

Dear Sirs,
Re: Torch development in Dubai Marina

Select Group is the developer of Torch Tower in the Marina, Jumeirah. It is now completed after a 3 year delay where the developer has claimed ‘force majeure’ since January 2009. 

I write to make a formal complaint against the above company (who is also the developer of other projects in the Marina) in their dealings with this build as you are the regulating, managing and licensing body which is set up to oversee fair practices and in effect protect investors/owners from such developers. I am one of many investors who are extremely unhappy with the conduct of this company.

Please be informed that the developer is now demanding an extortionate amount of service charge which does not identify what the costs refers to, neither have they provided a Building Management Statement in accordance with the CEO’s circular of 2010 and Direction for general Regulation Concerning Jointly Owned Properties (Article 33). It specifies within the law that your department must approve the service charge which to date has not been forthcoming. Thus, is it not an illegal practice if the developer has sought service charge demand before the certificate has been issued by your department? 

The documents are crucial for transparency to know whether all units are being charged the same and whether it is justified after proportioned between all units, taking into account what the likely maintenance costs are. In addition. Furthermore, the developer has created unfair addendums to the contract to which it would be harmful if I was to sign as it would take many of my legal rights away. I am being put under pressure by the company in that if I do not pay the service charge demanded and sign the addendums, they will not release the key to the apartment until 10 years later.

I urge you to look into the activities of this company and intervene where appropriate to assist investors who have decided to invest a lot of money in your beautiful Emirate. 

Yours faithfully
*************[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dubai bound

The National today in The UAE makes interesting read!!!
Mr Aslam states that we all have a good deal, and most have signed addendums and are happy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
be interesting to know the ones that have signed are you Happy or did certain circumstances make you sign when in reality you would have not wished to sign any such thing


----------



## TORTURE

*The National*

From The National UAE

Torch buyers upset at changes
Kevin Brass 

May 24, 2011 

Photo 
The Torch residential tower, centre, in Dubai Marina. Pawan Singh / The National





A group of buyers in the Torch, the world's tallest residential tower, have been told they will not get access to their apartments unless they agree to controversial changes to their contracts.

Select Group started handing over units in the 348-metre-tall, Dh665 million (US$181m) tower in Dubai Marina this month. About 100 apartments have already been handed over and another 200 buyers have booked appointments, said Rahail Aslam, the chief executive officer of Select Group.

But some investors have objected to changes to their contract issued by Select last month that gives the developer rights not in the original contract.

"What they are trying to do is force us into signing away our control," said James Rooney, a UK citizen who bought a two-bedroom apartment in 2005 for about Dh1.3m. "We had a contract and now it has changed."

The amendments apply to about 275 buyers who purchased units under a long-term payment plan under which buyers had until 2021 to pay for their apartments.

The contract changes give the developer the buyers' voting rights on the homeowners association and allows the developer to take control of a unit if the buyer "defaults under any of its obligations".

The documentation also gives Select the ability to transfer sale contracts to third parties.

The changes were necessary to allow Select to move forward with plans to securitise the debt from the long-term contracts, Mr Aslam said. About 50 per cent of the buyers in the long-term plan have already signed the contract changes, he said.

"As far as we're concerned, we have no issues with handovers," Mr Aslam said. "Handovers are happening, which suggests there are no issues with the documentation."



The original contracts allowed for additional documentation to be signed before handover, Mr Aslam said. "Of course they have to sign the addendum, it's part of the handover procedure."

But the owners refusing to sign claim that is not correct. They argue that the contract can be changed only if both parties agree to it.

About 25 buyers have formed a group in London to object to the deal, Mr Rooney said.

They have sought legal advice to back up their claims.

In response, a Select legal representative said in a letter to a purchaser said the buyers would not be able to occupy their units unless they signed the amendments or paid the "full purchase price".

If buyers do not sign, "then we don't get the keys, end of story", said Ian Maclaren, a UK journalist who bought a two-bedroom apartment in 2005. "There's no hint of compromise."

The addendum is a "form of bullying that should not be tolerated", Mr Maclaren said.



"We're saying, 'you're sticking to the wording of the agreement and now when it suits you you're sticking something else in'," he said. "Would they allow us to do that?"

The group members say they are not going to sign and are pursuing their legal options.

Mr Aslam said they represented only a few buyers and insisted there was nothing egregious in the contract changes.

"They're enjoying an amazing payment plan and now they're complaining about it," he said. "I just don't get it."

The Torch passed the Q1 Tower in Australia to earn the title of world's tallest residential tower, defined as towers with at least 90 per cent of the space devoted to apartments.

About 90 per cent of the 676 apartments in the tower have been sold, primarily to buyers from Europe and the Middle East who bought them between 2005 and 2008 at the height of Dubai's property boom.




So we're all happy then????????????


----------



## Dubai bound

*Happy*

Oh yes Over the Moon! same has the Point owners are over the moon too, and the upcoming projects they must be all jumping for joy too!!
in fact we are all besides our self in jubilation Thank you so much Mr Aslam:banana:hno:


----------



## SGrCRAP

*At Last the Press get involved*

Dear Select Victims, 

I'm really glad the Torch owners have managed to get some publicity about the illegal LPP addendum stitch up which Select Group have tried to force through. 

Rahail Aslam and Select Group's lawyers (UK-rejects) have no understanding of contract law if they think they can blackmail people into signing un-negotiated contract addendums by threatening to hold back keys on handover. 

Select Group did this at the Point Development and they then used the illegally obtained voting rights at the recent AGM to appoint their in house stooge onto the owners association (Paul Brady - Director of Asset Management [aka spin] for Select Group). Interestingly Brady did not receive a single vote for election from anyone else so he used Select's illegally obtained 61 LPP voting rights to elect himself. 

Select Group seem to be in total denial about a wide range of issues at their developments ranging from:-


Fire Safety - two fires in the Point in 6 months and fire alarm failed both times! Occupants smelt smoke during the last fire! Select Group claim to have a DCD certificate but don't appear to be able to produce one. Even if they do many owners suspect Select 'induced' the issuing party as they were scrambling desperately to hand the building over to avoid late delivery penalties. 
Unrectified common area snagging defects signed off by Select's pet NEB consultant who is blind whenever Select require him to be. Interestingly the reported reason Select Group did not finish the Point building was because they fell out with DCE (prime contractor) over late payments on Bay Central. DCE must have thought 5M AED was not enough to bother completing the Point common area snagging so they just walked away and let Select keep the money. The 5M AED retention fund has now disappeared. Owners were reportedly told "You will never get your hands on the retention fund" by Select Group's representative.
Persistent Building leaks which according to Select Group miraculously appeared the day after the DLP (Defects and Liability) period expired
 Illegal contract ammendments
 Extremely dodgy SPA clause which uses an allegedly 'independent' consultant to resolve any disputes between owners and Select Group - the reality appears to be Select Group have an internal arrangement with the consultant to pass everything as 'acceptable'
 Total lack of MEP maintenance during Select's period running the FM. Owners were paying large amount in service charges but in reality nothing was being done in terms of MEP maintenance. The owners are having to foot the bill for remedial work in virtually every area. Everything seems to have been installed in a massive hurry and every corner possible appears to have been cut. 

The sooner the authorities in Dubai take action the sooner confidence will be restored to the market. RERA are arrogant and totally toothless. Our OA were laughed at by their representative.

The Police should take Rahail Aslam in for questioning over Criminal Negligence regarding the two fire alarm failures at the Point in six months. They should also take in Aslam's senior management who have also failed completely in their duty of care for people living in buildings which ultimately they are responsible for.


----------



## TORTURE

Let's hope Mr Aslam, Mark Stott and friends are all squeaky clean, once the UK media campaign gets underway.
Of course, they could always try doing a Ryan Giggs.


----------



## scoobudubai

micmonro1 said:


> You are correct. As I said before SG don't give a damn what you are SPP-LPP or others, all they want to do is to scam you out of your money but You have to know one thing:
> Know your rights
> 
> 
> That is why I am asking people to write and complain to RERA. Also, with regards to the threat SG and whoever that represent them has made about withholding the handover of the units to the buyers. *Its simple, read the recent Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010, which is signed by Sheikh Mohamed Bin Rashid Al Maktum *
> 
> "the Law that was expanded upon relates to registration upon completion. Previously, *a developer could not refuse to hand over or register a unit in the name of the purchaser on the Real Estate Register once a project had been completed or a completion certificate had been issued* by the relevant authorities, if a purchaser had discharged all its contractual obligations. *The Resolution adds that now, the developer cannot refuse even if there were other financial obligations owed by the purchaser to the developer which did not arise in connection with the sale contract."*
> 
> For those decent people who have faith in what I say believe me SG are trying to cause panic amongst investors with these tactics. *Its the oldest tricks (cause panic-buy cheap- sell high .....and make a huge profit) *and they will employ any tactics to *entrap you. *
> If you read any advise to sign "under duress" *please please ignore it or call a Lawyer and ask them about what they think, the correct advise will be "Ignore it". *
> 
> They will get SP to pose as your trusted friend who will help you get rid of the unit but in reality they will feed you stories that your unit will worth cheaper than when you bought it. Another lie as the property market has began to recover.
> 
> read this link:
> http://blogs.thenational.ae/crane_co... 2010(2).pdf
> 
> Thank you Saint, Mackei1964 and others ......
> *Don't let SG/SP take you for a fools they are calling your bluffs
> *


Hi - what does this mean "other financial obligations owed by the purchaser to the developer which did not arise in connection with the sale contract", does other financial obligations include e.g. land registration fee, service management etc?


----------



## True Blue

Dubai_Steve said:


> They are referring to the 2nd addendum there for LPP buyers only, not the first one (which is the number change + the Select release)


I'm begininng to think you have sold your sole to the Devil Steve. Or just your password to your forum account.

You obviously signed the addendums and post positive speculation almost daily. You might alienate yourself soon from the rest of your neighbours if you are not carefull


----------



## True Blue

scoobudubai said:


> Hi - what does this mean "other financial obligations owed by the purchaser to the developer which did not arise in connection with the sale contract", does other financial obligations include e.g. land registration fee, service management etc?


^^Yes and Oqood etc.


----------



## MOAF

Select property, seem very quiet on the SCC these days , I wonder "WHY" , I wonder whats there view on this. ???



MOAF


----------



## Dubai_Steve

True Blue said:


> I'm begininng to think you have sold your sole to the Devil Steve. Or just your password to your forum account.
> 
> You obviously signed the addendums and post positive speculation almost daily. You might alienate yourself soon from the rest of your neighbours if you are not carefull


Yes I have reluctantly signed and had handover. Unfortunately need the cash flow, so can't afford to sit this one out for months on end before getting income.


----------



## torchowner

Dubai_Steve said:


> Yes I have reluctantly signed and had handover. Unfortunately need the cash flow, so can't afford to sit this one out for months on end before getting income.


What I do not understand is that if you signed reluctantly, why do you keep defending and praising Select to be the next best thing to sliced bread?hno:


----------



## Dubai_Steve

I have not defended Select, I have just clarified some facts on here. I wrote to Select and told them how I was being forced into signing and was signing under duress. I also wrote to RERA. I don't praise Select, where have I praised them? I have praised the Torch, as the building itself seems nice in general. Even Mackie has praised the Torch as a tower. The gym is outstanding.


----------



## True Blue

^^You should have only agreed to sign if you could include the words "under duress" or "without prejudice" if that was the case. Then you would be able to challenge the validity of the addendum should a dispute be crystalised in the future.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Yes, but I doubt they would have given me the keys. Perhaps I should have signed Mickey Mouse instead, maybe they wont check the signatures properly in a rush.


----------



## rbuster8

HI STEVE.
HAVE YOU GOT A TENANT YET? I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING QUITE A FEW RECENT POSTS THAT SEEM TO SUGGEST YOU MIGHT BE AN SG PLANT! I'D HATE TO THINK SO,,I'VE SENT YOU A FEW PRIVATE EMAILS OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS ALWAYS POSTIVE , HANG ON,, IT'LL COME GOOD,, Etc. NOW IM CONFUSED AGAIN,,,,ON REFLECTION,,,HAVE I BEEN DUPED AGAIN BY SELECT? SHOULD I TRUST MY OWN MOTHER?? SURELY NOT DUBAI STEVE!! PLEASE NO! ONE THING I HAVE NOTICED IS YOUR REPLYS ARE WITHOUT EXEPTION PROMPT AND POSITIVE. YOU OBVIOUSLY SPEND A LOT OF TIME WAITING ON THIS FORUM FOR A CHANCE TO POST A COMMENT. I ALSO NOTICE YOU HAVE BEEN A MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2005 AND HAVE NOW PLACED 7,669 POSTS ON THIS FORUM. NO OTHER CONTRIBUTER HAS COME ANYWHERE NEAR THAT NUMBER OF POSTS! COULD IT EVEN BE A POSSIBILITY THAT DUBAI STEVE IS MORE THAN ONE PERSON? AFTER ALL,,,, 7,669 POSTS (ALL IN FAVOUR OF THE TORCH) I DON'T KNOW,,,, WHERE DO YOU GET THE ENERGY FROM? NEVER MIND THE TIME. PLEASE SAY IM WRONG!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

rbuster8 said:


> HI STEVE.
> HAVE YOU GOT A TENANT YET?


Nope, been on the market for a few days so far.



rbuster8 said:


> I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING QUITE A FEW RECENT POSTS THAT SEEM TO SUGGEST YOU MIGHT BE AN SG PLANT!


:lol: which post?



rbuster8 said:


> 7,669 POSTS (ALL IN FAVOUR OF THE TORCH)


Not all, I did buy in Marina Heights also in the early days.


----------



## rbuster8

A RESPONSE FROM DUBAI STEVE WITHIN THE HOUR, AMAZING


----------



## gerald.d

ANOTHER POST FROM rbuster8 IN ALL CAPS.

WHO'D'VE THUNK IT?!


----------



## Imre

rbuster8 said:


> 7,669 POSTS (ALL IN FAVOUR OF THE TORCH) I DON'T KNOW,,,, WHERE DO YOU GET THE ENERGY FROM? NEVER MIND THE TIME. PLEASE SAY IM WRONG!


Then just have a look my posts nr 

:cheers:


----------



## foxy

If you trawl back to the early days you will see that Select has been receiving criticism since the begining. Would they really plant someone to take a moderately critical view to retain credibility? or is Dubai Steve just protecting his interests by not slagging off the development he has invested in? This second view is not that uncommon. 
If Dubai Steve (or Stevies) is/are Select employees than they should feel ashamed of themselves and should blow the whistle on this mob.


----------



## Rider

rbuster8 said:


> HI STEVE.
> HAVE YOU GOT A TENANT YET? I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING QUITE A FEW RECENT POSTS THAT SEEM TO SUGGEST YOU MIGHT BE AN SG PLANT! I'D HATE TO THINK SO,,I'VE SENT YOU A FEW PRIVATE EMAILS OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS ALWAYS POSTIVE , HANG ON,, IT'LL COME GOOD,, Etc. NOW IM CONFUSED AGAIN,,,,ON REFLECTION,,,HAVE I BEEN DUPED AGAIN BY SELECT? SHOULD I TRUST MY OWN MOTHER?? SURELY NOT DUBAI STEVE!! PLEASE NO! ONE THING I HAVE NOTICED IS YOUR REPLYS ARE WITHOUT EXEPTION PROMPT AND POSITIVE. YOU OBVIOUSLY SPEND A LOT OF TIME WAITING ON THIS FORUM FOR A CHANCE TO POST A COMMENT. I ALSO NOTICE YOU HAVE BEEN A MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2005 AND HAVE NOW PLACED 7,669 POSTS ON THIS FORUM. NO OTHER CONTRIBUTER HAS COME ANYWHERE NEAR THAT NUMBER OF POSTS! COULD IT EVEN BE A POSSIBILITY THAT DUBAI STEVE IS MORE THAN ONE PERSON? AFTER ALL,,,, 7,669 POSTS (ALL IN FAVOUR OF THE TORCH) I DON'T KNOW,,,, WHERE DO YOU GET THE ENERGY FROM? NEVER MIND THE TIME. PLEASE SAY IM WRONG!


I think Select are making you a little paranoid. 

Sure Dubai Steve's glasses are more 'rose tinted' than most but I can recall several posts from him suggesting that Select get booted out and replaced as far as Building Management goes. He's probably just an optimistic guy who really believes in his investment.


----------



## NEMISIS

The whistle has already been blown. I am in contact with ex-select employees and their testament is making very interesting reading indeed. The web of lies and deceit that has been spun by SG & SP is beginning to close in now. Amounts the gems i have in writing from a senior manager in Select Property dating back to June 2007 stating "I can categorically assure you that no instances of Force Majeure have occurred, or been claimed so far to this date in relation to the Torch Project"

Anyone who signed a contract with SG in 2007 or later has been deceived in legal terms as you have been presented with a void contract. In legal terms your contract was already broken before you signed it unless you were specifically notified of the FM instances pre-dating your contract. This was further compounded in evidence when in 2009 SG wrote out and claimed FM officially and gave all the reasons which relate to pre 2007 instances.

*Its hardly surprising that SG and Clyde & CO are so desperate to get addendums signed waiving the any rights to take action.*

I have a very large body of evidence that will soon be passed to the serious fraud office in the UK to investigate as the scale of deceit that has been conducted here meets with their criteria of serious fraud.

*Serious fraud as defined by the SFO.

Fraud is a type of criminal activity, defined as:

'abuse of position, or false representation, or prejudicing someone's rights for personal gain'.

Put simply, fraud is an act of deception intended for personal gain or to cause a loss to another party. * - http://www.sfo.gov.uk/fraud/what-is-fraud.aspx


----------



## Anjam

foxy said:


> If you trawl back to the early days you will see that Select has been receiving criticism since the begining. Would they really plant someone to take a moderately critical view to retain credibility? or is Dubai Steve just protecting his interests by not slagging off the development he has invested in? This second view is not that uncommon.
> If Dubai Steve (or Stevies) is/are Select employees than they should feel ashamed of themselves and should blow the whistle on this mob.


^^I don't think Dubai Steve works for Select. The amount of time he spends on SSC and Flickr looking for Dubai Marina pictures would have cost SG a fortune in overtime.


----------



## jeetha

^^ahh!........ bless him.


----------



## Rider

Has anyone had any contact with SG this week - either the ccdxb or handover email addresses?

I have emailed them several times this week but as yet no response from anyone.


----------



## True Blue

Anjam said:


> ^^I don't think Dubai Steve works for Select. The amount of time he spends on SSC and Flickr looking for Dubai Marina pictures would have cost SG a fortune in overtime.


I don't think DS has ever posted a picture from flickr of the Chic end of the marina or any Cayan projects as the main subject. Many of his posts also included slagging off The Jewels, Dorrabay and my personal apartments. Hardly a balanced approach. I have taken and posted many picture of Select projects over the years. I'm not singling out DS, there were many, most of them have mysteriously dissappeared now, Morrismarina, NazUK, Yousuf, DXBPC et al who wanted to make it personal and I happily rose to the challenge.

Many saw me as anti Select in the early years and adopted tit for tat rebukes on my investments and Cayan, everytime I pointed out my professional opinions which are now confirmed as fact. The constant regurgitation of the phrase "arse end" was spouted only by those who invested in Select Property and saw my opinions as derisery against Select.

Here are some of the opinions I expressed in the early days which I am now happy to confirm became the facts of today;


Torch Tower will not be handed over before 2011.
Select will not compensate for the excessive delays, the compensation clause was a sales gimmic.
Purchasing anything over 1000AED/ft is taking a risk.
Claims by Select that their developments will be the most luxurious apartments in the marina will be shown to be miss selling at the least, possibly even fraudlent.
The tallest block will be admired from a distance as it will not contain living appeal due to the density of accomodation.
Ths lack of density of accomodation will make good quality apartments at the Chic end more desirable. This is bourne out by the premium in rent I acheive with my investments over the tallest block area. This can be independently confirmed.
Phase 1 area of the marina was a draw in the early years but the Walk at JBR, WILL BE the main hub of the marina.

I could go on and on, but in the main I have tried to give sensible balanced advice which was always attacked, mostly in a personal manner and without any substance. So I have now got that off my chest

At the end of the day, I care little for all of it as I have made over £100k from my Dubai investment based on using my own judgement. Whereas my adversaries are all still waiting to earn their first penny based on theirs


----------



## CAJ

True Blue said:


> I don't think DS has ever posted a picture from flickr of the Chic end of the marina or any Cayan projects as the main subject. Many of his posts also included slagging off The Jewels, Dorrabay and my personal apartments. Hardly a balanced approach. I have taken and posted many picture of Select projects over the years. I'm not singling out DS, there were many, most of them have mysteriously dissappeared now, Morrismarina, NazUK, Yousuf, DXBPC et al who wanted to make it personal and I happily rose to the challenge.
> 
> Many saw me as anti Select in the early years and adopted tit for tat rebukes on my investments and Cayan, everytime I pointed out my professional opinions which are now confirmed as fact. The constant regurgitation of the phrase "arse end" was spouted only by those who invested in Select Property and saw my opinions as derisery against Select.
> 
> Here are some of the opinions I expressed in the early days which I am now happy to confirm became the facts of today;
> 
> 
> Torch Tower will not be handed over before 2011.
> Select will not compensate for the excessive delays, the compensation clause was a sales gimmic.
> Purchasing anything over 1000AED/ft is taking a risk.
> Claims by Select that their developments will be the most luxurious apartments in the marina will be shown to be miss selling at the least, possibly even fraudlent.
> The tallest block will be admired from a distance as it will not contain living appeal due to the density of accomodation.
> Ths lack of density of accomodation will make good quality apartments at the Chic end more desirable. This is bourne out by the premium in rent I acheive with my investments over the tallest block area. This can be independently confirmed.
> Phase 1 area of the marina was a draw in the early years but the Walk at JBR, WILL BE the main hub of the marina.
> 
> I could go on and on, but in the main I have tried to give sensible balanced advice which was always attacked, mostly in a personal manner and without any substance. So I have now got that off my chest
> 
> At the end of the day, I care little for all of it as I have made over £100k from my Dubai investment based on using my own judgement. Whereas my adversaries are all still waiting to earn their first penny based on theirs


YOUR THE MAN!

IF YOU WERE CHOCOLATE YOU WOULD EAT YOURSELF.


----------



## FWIW

Rider said:


> Has anyone had any contact with SG this week - either the ccdxb or handover email addresses?
> 
> I have emailed them several times this week but as yet no response from anyone.


Yes, they sent me a receipt for a recent lpp payment. It used to be that I would need to spend considerable time chasing for a receipt. Now it comes automatically a day or two after transfer. They must be up to something regarding payment delays, therefore I now pay well ahead of time. I bet you they will still pile on late fees though!


----------



## Sid

CAJ said:


> YOUR THE MAN!
> 
> IF YOU WERE CHOCOLATE YOU WOULD EAT YOURSELF.


:lol::banana::lol::banana::lol::banana:


----------



## Anjam

I am glad I gave you an opportunity to get things of your chest TB despite the fact that your reply has no relevance to my tongue in cheek remark :cheers:

We are all good people on here but unfortunately due to the anonymous nature of the internet and forums in particular one tends to hide behind this shield of anonymity and come out with things one wouldn't normally say to someone. Don't take it personally. I have met people who have met you and they say you are a great guy even though you can be a PITA on here sometimes 

I am sure we will all look back on these forums in a few years and have a good chuckle, there is some top content on here. I am sure there is a book, a sitcom and even a full length movie to be made out of some of the stories on here.


----------



## Yousuf27

In my experience of life in general one should view with great suspicion someone who continually has to reassure themselves - and everyone else - how right they were, and how well they've done. That isn't a personal attack - it's just a lesson learned from life experience. Most people - when they're really genuinely successful - just keep quiet.


----------



## True Blue

CAJ said:


> YOUR THE MAN!
> 
> IF YOU WERE CHOCOLATE YOU WOULD EAT YOURSELF.


I'm sure you mean, YOU'RE the man 





Yousuf27 said:


> In my experience of life in general one should view with great suspicion someone *who continually has to reassure themselves* - and everyone else - how right they were, and how well they've done. That isn't a personal attack - it's just a lesson learned from life experience. Most people - when they're really genuinely successful - just keep quiet.


In general I have kept quiet, more so over the last 6 months or so, but the time was right to do a bit of gloating:baeh3: I don't expect there will be much else to talk about on the forum and it does look like the golden days are over.

Anjam, I'm not sure MM would agree to a movie being made. Imagine the humiliation of some of his classics being dug up like him claiming BC will be no more than 6 months late due to the Hotel:laugh: There are many more.

It's good to be able to laugh, and he who laughs last, laughs longest. Or eats himself!!:lol:


----------



## foxy

TB have you heard of the expression "No one likes a smart arse". On the other hand you are smart and I respect your views.

After 6 long years we are approaching the end game, can't you be a little bit happy for us?


----------



## True Blue

foxy said:


> TB have you heard of the expression "No one likes a smart arse". On the other hand you are smart and I respect your views.
> 
> After 6 long years we are approaching the end game, can't you be a little bit happy for us?


*For clarity*, I am happy for you all. My comments were restricted to those who have been attacking my views in such a personal manner over the last six years.

I thought I had made that point. It is sometimes difficult to express yourself in a comedic and non confrontational or nasty manner when you are in a forum. In a bar it is much easier as when you can see me laughing and joking when I say "told you so". No malice intended, just having my long overdue day.kay:


----------



## Dubai_Steve

True Blue said:


> Many of his posts also included slagging off The Jewels, Dorrabay and my personal apartments.


Check the records, this was only ever done by me in defence of you slagging of the Torch. My role on here is to keep the Karma for the Torch as you seem to make consistent negative posts on the Torch thread as if you are intent on devaluing it. Just take a look at your recent posts on that thread, all speculative negative suggestions (or thought seeds) to which I have to post a response to correct you.


----------



## binwaitin

FWIW said:


> Yes, they sent me a receipt for a recent lpp payment. It used to be that I would need to spend considerable time chasing for a receipt. Now it comes automatically a day or two after transfer. They must be up to something regarding payment delays, therefore I now pay well ahead of time. I bet you they will still pile on late fees though!


we have also been billed late payment fees and have tried to dispute but had sg advise us we were late / end of story - we had provided proof of payment but sg still did not relent - they insisted on payment. we also had the same problems chasing receipts for payments sent.


----------



## Anjam

binwaitin said:


> we have also been billed late payment fees and have tried to dispute but had sg advise us we were late / end of story - we had provided proof of payment but sg still did not relent - they insisted on payment. we also had the same problems chasing receipts for payments sent.


How late did they claim your payments were?


----------



## binwaitin

Anjam said:


> How late did they claim your payments were?


hi anjam

pymnt sent 05/09/06 moneycorp confirm 06/09 - sg advise pymt rcvd 11/10/06
pymt sent 25/06/06 globex confirm 28/06/06 - sg advise pymt rcvd 28/06/06

but we were charged for both late payments..


----------



## RedWayne28thfloor

binwaitin said:


> we have also been billed late payment fees and have tried to dispute but had sg advise us we were late / end of story - we had provided proof of payment but sg still did not relent - they insisted on payment. we also had the same problems chasing receipts for payments sent.


Funny you should say that because I've just received a receipt from SG for my latest payment and this is something they havent done for about 18 months. We always used to receive a receipt by mail but it just stopped.


----------



## foxy

binwaitin said:


> hi anjam
> 
> pymnt sent 05/09/06 moneycorp confirm 06/09 - sg advise pymt rcvd 11/10/06
> pymt sent 25/06/06 globex confirm 28/06/06 - sg advise pymt rcvd 28/06/06
> 
> but we were charged for both late payments..


Have you complained to RERA?
Post the details here. We need to shed as much light as we can.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

RedWayne28thfloor said:


> Funny you should say that because I've just received a receipt from SG for my latest payment and this is something they havent done for about 18 months. We always used to receive a receipt by mail but it just stopped.


I always ask Select Group for an email receipt after doing a transfer (and chase up if not sent). Never had any late charges.


----------



## NEMISIS

*NEWS JUST IN*

Anyone who is still debating weather to sign the addendum's or not. 

*DONT.*

They are being re-drafted as we speak.


----------



## Rider

^^ Re-drafted only for those who have not yet signed or for everyone? 

Surely the same addendums must apply to everyone equally - who are on the same payment plan.


----------



## foxy

NEMISIS said:


> Anyone who is still debating weather to sign the addendum's or not.
> 
> *DONT.*
> 
> They are being re-drafted as we speak.


Any news on the service fees?? Have Select received approval from RERA?


----------



## FWIW

binwaitin said:


> we have also been billed late payment fees and have tried to dispute but had sg advise us we were late / end of story - we had provided proof of payment but sg still did not relent - they insisted on payment. we also had the same problems chasing receipts for payments sent.


Sad to hear this, especially as you torch investors have waited a very long time. Did you sign the addendum and have you had handover btw? Also, did you have any payments that were early? Could those not be offset against the ones they deemed as late?


----------



## NEMISIS

Dubai_Steve said:


> What about the LPP and service charges for those in the limbo state intenting to push forward with court action?
> 
> The RERA approval letter states that the Developer should undertake to pay the service fees & maintenance for *unsold *units as the owner of such units but does not state what to do for those who are refusing handover.


It is the developer who is REFUSING handover under the in situ contract state, (subject to BUYERS waiving all contractual rights including cancellation due to the contract being void). 

The SG legal team has confirmed that the contractual situation is such that any LPP investor can only use the apartment, parking space, building amenities and services when, and only when the FULL PURCHASE PRICE is paid. As this was the case when the contracts were signed then there is no legal requirement to pay service charges until the BUYER is permitted to enter the building for which service charges are being levied.

Anyone on LPP who has signed either addendum, your problems havn't even started yet. The last 5 years will feel like a picnic in park compared to whats coming over the next 10.


----------



## glover

On what clause in the SPA are they basing this! 


NEMISIS said:


> The SG legal team has confirmed that the contractual situation is such that any LPP investor can only use the apartment, parking space, building amenities and services when, and only when the FULL PURCHASE PRICE is paid.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

NEMISIS said:


> Anyone on LPP who has signed either addendum, your problems havn't even started yet. The last 5 years will feel like a picnic in park compared to whats coming over the next 10.


Can you please clarify that point with an example of what you are thinking of, for the benefit of those who have already signed so as to allow usage of the units before the full price is paid?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

NEMISIS said:


> The SG legal team has confirmed that the contractual situation is such that any LPP investor can only use the apartment, parking space, building amenities and services when, and only when the FULL PURCHASE PRICE is paid. As this was the case when the contracts were signed then there is no legal requirement to pay service charges until the BUYER is permitted to enter the building for which service charges are being levied.


Interesting point. That does not bode well for the general maintenance of the building as I doubt Select can afford to pay the charges they have set for all of those units.


----------



## NEMISIS

glover said:


> On what clause in the SPA are they basing this!


10.3



Dubai_Steve said:


> Can you please clarify that point with an example of what you are thinking of, for the benefit of those who have already signed so as to allow usage of the units before the full price is paid?


I'd rather not thanks. I fail to understand why anyone in their right mind decided to sign those addendum's. You have basically agreed to do whatever Select want you to do for as long as the LPP is in force. Your apartment does not belong to you and your joint owner could end up being anyone (individual or corporation), they are then able to sell their interest on to whoever they wish. Every time any future joint owner of your apartment wants to amend your agreement further (in whatever way they see fit), you are now contractually obliged to agree and sign any such agreements as are necessary to facilitate this process. You will never be able to mortgage this property to pay of the LPP unless SG agree to it first. Any LPP investors who have signed addendum's are at the total mercy of SG or whoever buys the debt from them. If at any time you refuse to agree a sale of rights or any other amendments that are required you will be in breach of your new contract and forfeit your rights.

Good luck with that. I'm sure uncle Rahail will look after you all, he seems like a really nice chap to me.



Dubai_Steve said:


> Interesting point. That does not bode well for the general maintenance of the building as I doubt Select can afford to pay the charges they have set for all of those units.


I wouldn't mind betting that service charges will escalate at a higher rate than property values in Dubai for at least the next 10 years.


----------



## glover

can someone post the verbiage of clause 10.3! i only have BC contracts, and would like to compare the two.!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Caribarra said:


> Hi there ALL
> 
> OK - I have read the posts and I have a question, what do we do and how long is it going to take. I have been waiting for years for this to happen and now I just do not know what to do next. Finances will restrict me to put in place a Dubai solicitor so will Rera or someone intervene here?
> 
> Please - just some straight forward advice is needed for the people who do not want to sign but are needing to sign - if that makes sense.
> 
> Thank you for your comments, much appreciated....


The difficulty is that many people are in the same position as you, unable to afford legal costs at 20k+ with no 100% certain outcome. Meanwhile you need to maintain the LPP payments. Some have no choice but to rent the units and deal with what might come in the future when and if it happens. Hopefully, if the LPP is sold on it will be under the same terms and conditions. Those fortunate to have access to lots of cash can go legal and try to return all monies paid due to the void contract as this would give a better return that keeping the unit in the mid term so can take advantage of the void contract situation recently discovered.


----------



## NEMISIS

*FUTURE ADVERTISEMENT*

Dear potential investor,

We would like to offer you the opportunity to purchase an investment as follows:

For AED**** you can jointly own a share of property that will yield an income return in excess of 7% pa of your initial capital investment. This return is fixed and guaranteed. Furthermore within the agreement you will be able to refuse the other joint owner use of the property for any reason you see fit. If the other owner wants to buy himself out of your agreement you can refuse with no valid reason. If you want to use any of this guaranteed income generated to secure more debt you can. If you want use the capital element of the property to generate debt you can also do this. If the company providing you with the new debt insist that the property is repossessed in its entirety on default of the new debt you are creating you will have to get the other joint owner to agree to this. (He has to agree to this contractually or he is in breach of contract). In fact you can do whatever you see fit as long as it is legal (well in the UAE anyway). 

As if this wasn't attractive enough, the icing on the cake is this. If whatever it is you want to do with the equity share of the property is not agreed to by the other joint owner, and they simply refuse to sign any new contracts that allow you to do whatever it is you want to do. You can simply hold him in breach of his contract and take full ownership of the property. This could effectively return well in excess of 100% return on your capital investment depending on when you decide to present such an agreement that the investor does not agree to.

Obviously as time goes by and your capital and interest is gradually repaid to you as per the attached schedule, your joint ownership rights of the property remain the same so any such agreements you wish to make would sensibly be deferred so that the other joint owner can repay most of your investment back before refusing to enter into an agreement in which he forfeits his rights to the property.

Please hurry as this opportunity is in limited suppy. Well until sometime next year, or the year after when we will have some more of these to sell.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

LPP to be sold only with same terms and conditions?


----------



## NEMISIS

Dubai_Steve said:


> LPP to be sold only with same terms and conditions?


Only until such time as the Seller wishes to amend the conditions, to which you have agreed to their irrevocable right to do so.









You are in the lions den now Steve, good luck.


----------



## Dubai_Steve




----------



## mackie1964

NEMISIS said:


> Dear potential investor,
> 
> We would like to offer you the opportunity to purchase an investment as follows:
> 
> For AED**** you can jointly own a share of property that will yield an income return in excess of 7% pa of your initial capital investment. This return is fixed and guaranteed. Furthermore within the agreement you will be able to refuse the other joint owner use of the property for any reason you see fit. If the other owner wants to buy himself out of your agreement you can refuse with no valid reason. If you want to use any of this guaranteed income generated to secure more debt you can. If you want use the capital element of the property to generate debt you can also do this. If the company providing you with the new debt insist that the property is repossessed in its entirety on default of the new debt you are creating you will have to get the other joint owner to agree to this. (He has to agree to this contractually or he is in breach of contract). In fact you can do whatever you see fit as long as it is legal (well in the UAE anyway).
> 
> As if this wasn't attractive enough, the icing on the cake is this. If whatever it is you want to do with the equity share of the property is not agreed to by the other joint owner, and they simply refuse to sign any new contracts that allow you to do whatever it is you want to do. You can simply hold him in breach of his contract and take full ownership of the property. This could effectively return well in excess of 100% return on your capital investment depending on when you decide to present such an agreement that the investor does not agree to.
> 
> Obviously as time goes by and your capital and interest is gradually repaid to you as per the attached schedule, your joint ownership rights of the property remain the same so any such agreements you wish to make would sensibly be deferred so that the other joint owner can repay most of your investment back before refusing to enter into an agreement in which he forfeits his rights to the property.
> 
> Please hurry as this opportunity is in limited suppy. Well until sometime next year, or the year after when we will have some more of these to sell.


No need to advertise. Some deals are already on the table. I will be very surprised if SG in property development this time next year, those crooks are planning the next scam already but, we could spoil that deal for them :cheers:


----------



## Zengana

Please everyone, why can't we get our act together and get one law firm acting for the investors of the Torch. At least this way we can negotiate the lawyers fees.


----------



## 234sale

The contract was made for a unit in your name,, unless you bought as a group that approach won't be accepted. 

If you somehow can get that accepted by the relevant court,, "which it will unlike won't", then you would be allowed to.


----------



## scoobudubai

NEMISIS said:


> Only until such time as the Seller wishes to amend the conditions, to which you have agreed to their irrevocable right to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are in the lions den now Steve, good luck.


It's not that bad (b) seems to say that changes to the payments or total amount owed are not allowed to be changed.


----------



## torchowner

234sale said:


> The contract was made for a unit in your name,, unless you bought as a group that approach won't be accepted.
> 
> If you somehow can get that accepted by the relevant court,, "which it will unlike won't", then you would be allowed to.



It should be possible for a group of owners to approach a law firm and negotiate a individual group discount! This in my opinion, would be a win win situation for everybody. The law firm is guaranteed a certain amount of business and each owner would have to pay less for his/her case!


----------



## FWIW

torchowner said:


> It should be possible for a group of owners to approach a law firm and negotiate a individual group discount! This in my opinion, would be a win win situation for everybody. The law firm is guaranteed a certain amount of business and each owner would have to pay less for his/her case!


I came across this on my travels:

http://lyhplaw.com/faqs.htm#4



> How much cost benefit does collective action offer?
> Collective efforts by investors provide enormous cost benefit. First, as far as legal and expert fees are concerned, they can share the expense. Second, any costs incurred in gathering due diligence necessary to litigate a case can be also split across the board. Even bigger cost benefit could be achieved if, because of their collective force, investors work out a settlement with the developer without going to court.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> It's not that bad (b) seems to say that changes to the payments or total amount owed are not allowed to be changed.


But what about the time period to pay it over?


----------



## MORRIS DANCER

NEMISIS said:


> 10.3
> 
> 
> 
> I'd rather not thanks. I fail to understand why anyone in their right mind decided to sign those addendum's. You have basically agreed to do whatever Select want you to do for as long as the LPP is in force. Your apartment does not belong to you and your joint owner could end up being anyone (individual or corporation), they are then able to sell their interest on to whoever they wish. Every time any future joint owner of your apartment wants to amend your agreement further (in whatever way they see fit), you are now contractually obliged to agree and sign any such agreements as are necessary to facilitate this process. You will never be able to mortgage this property to pay of the LPP unless SG agree to it first. Any LPP investors who have signed addendum's are at the total mercy of SG or whoever buys the debt from them. If at any time you refuse to agree a sale of rights or any other amendments that are required you will be in breach of your new contract and forfeit your rights.
> 
> Good luck with that. I'm sure uncle Rahail will look after you all, he seems like a really nice chap to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't mind betting that service charges will escalate at a higher rate than property values in Dubai for at least the next 10 years.


Dear Nemisis,

First off a huge thank you for your very helpfull and informative post re legal opinions.

May i ask you, do you intend to take legal action as you dissagree to sign the addendums based on this information you have discovered.

I ask because i am on the LPP with 2 2bed apartments in the Torch. I have not signed the addendums and informed SG i want them removed or adjusted.

SG responded that they wont adjustor/remove addendums and they want to know if i wish to take posetion of the units in which case i still need to sign the addedums SO THAT CLAUSE 10.3 OF THE SPA DOES NOT APPLY. or i take possetion of the properties when the full purchase price is paid.

You can send me a personal message if you prefer to keep you motives off the public forum

Regards

Mark


----------



## Caribarra

Hi there Morris

We are in the same position but to be honest if theres no give what do you do??????? to go to the court route is expensive and they know it, im sure that we have a better than even chance of winning but I do not have the funds for that.

So what are people intending to do just sit it out until their LPP is paid off, it seems to be the only 2 options I have unless the authorities get involved and how long will it take them. For ever I think.

Any answers greatfully received - thank you.


----------



## FWIW

Imre - that 2 bedder is nicely done but I cannot stand the kitchen...it looks so like it is not supposed to be there. I would want to box arround it or do something... is it that bad in real life? Would you like to cook in there? Hope the non-white cooker hood has a powerful motor and is not just recirculating it arround the apartment!


----------



## Zengana

*Get a Lawyer's advise*



Why Dubai said:


> Can any one answer what happens to the service charges if we have to wait 10 years for the handover ??


Why don't you write to RERA and say you are not paying the service-charge because....? See what they will say.....
I have already asked them and they say get a lawyer's advise


----------



## Dubai_Steve

FWIW said:


> Imre - that 2 bedder is nicely done but I cannot stand the kitchen...it looks so like it is not supposed to be there. I would want to box arround it or do something... is it that bad in real life? Would you like to cook in there? Hope the non-white cooker hood has a powerful motor and is not just recirculating it arround the apartment!


Looks fine for a short term rental though, when you would not do much cooking. The higher 2 beds are probably better for long term with the separate kitchen.


----------



## FWIW

Dubai_Steve said:


> Looks fine for a short term rental though, when you would not do much cooking. The higher 2 beds are probably better for long term with the separate kitchen.


That restricts your potential target market to just short term rentals then...fine if that is what you want but I feel sorry if someone bought that as their holiday home.

I am not even sure our PropertMagnet would be able to do her magic on that! Just looks like a bad layout from the pics to me. I am sure in real life a young bloke who eats out everyday would like it...


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ feedback from the agents was that the British market like this layout best as they eat out a lot and the living room is more spacious but the asian and local market prefer the separate kitchen layout of the higher 2 beds in the Torch.


----------



## mackie1964

hawki said:


> *I have had an e mail from Selects Head of Legal: I stated that i will not be signing the Addendum's because it washes their hands of all the wrong doings over the past few years which we are all too aware of.
> As i am on the LLP, they also want to have my vote with regards to the OA which means in effect they can use my vote to shaft me for outrageous mark- ups on services as they will to all of you because over half of the building are on the LLP, so I believe!!!
> They keep referring me back to section 10.3 of the contract and are telling me that if I do not sign the addendum's I can pick the keys up in 10 years time when ive paid of all of the money!!!!!*


Do you mean this one:



> We write with reference to your property at The Torch and our previous communications thereto in relation to your handover. We have not received any documentation from you confirming that you will be proceeding with your handover. There is great demand from tenants in the building and a large interest by letting agents to manage and let out properties in the Torch. You could be earning a good profit on the apartment, but as the handover formalities are still pending, you are incurring service charge costs calculated as of 22nd May 2011. Whilst we have extended our handover deadline to end of July 2011 (the SPA provides that handover will complete within 20 days from completion notice) in order to facilitate all our buyers with their handover formalities, we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011. With this in mind, we advise all our buyers to take prompt actions towards securing a handover appointment well in advance of this deadline. We thus invite you to write to us to confirm whether:
> a) you wish to take possession of the Property now (in which case the First and Second Addendums will need to be signed so that clause 10.3 of the SPA does not apply); or
> b) you would prefer to maintain the contractual status quo and take possession of the Property when the full purchase price has been paid. We look forward to hearing from you and look forward to welcoming you to your new apartment at The Torch.


Now; that is funny


----------



## Mistermark

mackie1964 said:


> Do you mean this one:
> 
> 
> 
> Now; that is funny


Indeed it is. Had I still been an owner I would probably have had Aslam's kneecaps drilled for that.


----------



## torchowner

Mistermark said:


> Indeed it is. Had I still been an owner I would probably have had Aslam's kneecaps drilled for that.


What came first, the headless chicken or Rahail!!!:lol:


----------



## Morrismarina

The one bedroom unit looks huge. The same as the one I sold a couple of years ago. In fact I have some spare cash at the moment and thinking of buying a one bed in TT again as rentals seems to be going very well and I could hold for 10 years+ so not too concerned with values in the short/medium term. Anybody any idea what price I could pick one of these up for and likely rental return ?? Would it be better to go for a Marina facing apartment ??


----------



## NEMISIS

Why Dubai said:


> Can any one answer what happens to the service charges if we have to wait 10 years for the handover ??





Zengana said:


> Why don't you write to RERA and say you are not paying the service-charge because....? See what they will say.....
> I have already asked them and they say get a lawyer's advise





glover said:


> Can someone post Clause 10.3! Need to compare it to my SPA in Bay Central.
> 
> This sounds like a clear violation of both, the SPA and the prevailing laws.


Much of the Torch Select Ltd SPA is in breach of both the Dubai Civil Code and UAE Federal Code. This is just one reason for TSL desperately wanting investors to sign addendum's 1&2. By signing the addenda you have/or will be letting TSL off the hook for the various breaches committed. 

Any lawyer in the UAE who has learned to correctly spell their own name will tell you that the Federal and Civil codes override any contract that is in place between two parties and any such contract must not clearly breach any Federal or Civil codes.

One clear example is Force Majeure. - Article 273 of the UAE Civil Code states that;
*“ if Force Majeure interrupts the performance of a contract such as to make it impossible for the contract to be performed, either wholly or in part, then the contract, or the relevant part of the contract, is extinguished or may be treated as suspended”.*

This is just one example of why Torch Select Ltd are so keen for all the mugs to sign away their rights on the addendum's. There are also far more serious issues that they are trying to hide that I am currently discussing with the UAE Central Bank, which I may/or may not disclose in the near future.


----------



## scoobudubai

Mistermark said:


> Indeed it is. Had I still been an owner I would probably have had Aslam's kneecaps drilled for that.


Well that is a fascinating terrifying and disgusting comment. I think that a lot of people would be interested in the CEOs of both companies. For the sake of doubt, scoobudubai has never been just one person, in fact various families have been involved e.g. Irish and Sicilian. Whilst we would never associate ourselves with such a horrible and disgusting 'threat', we can kind of understand why people are so angry as to have made this threat.
Select should wake up and realise the amount of poison they have generated in peoples lives, people who were otherwise leading normal peaceful lives. They will not get away with it.


----------



## propertymate

^^Maybe!
It is low floor and 05 (Marina View). I have been told by my agent that maybe because it is furnished is the reason it has not rented out yet. Earlier last year I was told by Select that I had a much better chance of renting it out if it was furnished and they persuaded me to buy their furniture pack at £7000+ and I fell for it!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ Since it is furnished, have you considered short term rentals instead?


----------



## scoobudubai

So how many lights are lit up at night? doesn't look like much happening, building seems fairly empty, has anyone actually been notified of a completion date yet? as opposed to a completion notice. If so what was the completion date?

Just saw www.selectdubaibeware.com, interesting articles e.g. by Mark Stott etc. is all that stuff true?


----------



## micmonro1

*Response to latest SG's letter*

"we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter 

My response is as follows:

Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.

Regards, Lily

*Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.*


----------



## micmonro1

*Response to latest SG's letter*

"we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter 

My response is as follows:

Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.:banana:

Regards, Lily

*Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.*


----------



## SB75

propertymate said:


> I have had my 1 bed, marina view, furnished apartment up for rental with a well known agency in Dubai for nearly 2 months now and no tenant as yet. I am very disappointed. Considered selling but would would make a large loss.


 I have a furnished 2 bed on the 66th floor, its a 06 marina view, been available 5 weeks now and no offers as yet


----------



## scoobudubai

So how many people have signed the addenda, how many have succeeded in letting their apartment(s), how many are failing to let?
How many people have not signed the addenda?

Is the building complete yet, and if so has the completion date been communicated yet?


----------



## True Blue

^^It is a big building and will take time to fill up. I used to be able to rent my units within a week, last time it took 3-4 weeks and plenty of viewings. I did get plenty of offers but they were mostly low ball.

Intersting to note that asking prices in the marina seem to be healthier looking than at the start of the year. Just read about a MP 1 bed going for 100k and I see listings for Jewels 1 beds at 80-85k unfurnished. Dorrabay 2 bed 120k whereas before the average was 110k. I just quote these buildings because I know that market well.

I previously estimated the market for Torch units at 65k average for 1 beds and 85k average for 2 beds. Some are suggesting the price is now 70k and 90k respectivly. So I wonder if things are improving despite the additional supply coming to the market?


----------



## True Blue

scoobudubai said:


> So how many people have signed the addenda, how many have succeeded in letting their apartment(s), how many are failing to let?
> How many people have not signed the addenda?
> 
> *Is the building complete yet, and if so has the completion date been communicated yet*?


Don't you think you have flogged this subject to death?

Once the building is occupied by the client(handed over) it is deemed to be complete.

If you have been issued a completion notice then refer to the contract and determine how much notice must be served and calculate it on that basis.


----------



## scoobudubai

True Blue said:


> Don't you think you have flogged this subject to death?
> 
> Once the building is occupied by the client(handed over) it is deemed to be complete.
> 
> If you have been issued a completion notice then refer to the contract and determine how much notice must be served and calculate it on that basis.


Flogged to death? not really, am amazed that nobody else seems to care. The 'completion date' is referred to several times in the contract. Surely it deserves serious attention. As far as we are concerned, there is no 'completion date' yet, so not sure why people have already moved in.


----------



## MANUTD

scoobudubai said:


> So how many people have signed the addenda, how many have succeeded in letting their apartment(s), how many are failing to let?
> How many people have not signed the addenda?
> 
> Is the building complete yet, and if so has the completion date been communicated yet?


:yawn::yawn::yawn: 

If you haven't signed you should be doing something about it or prepare to wait 10 years


----------



## MANUTD

micmonro1 said:


> "we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter
> 
> My response is as follows:
> 
> Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.:banana:
> 
> Regards, Lily
> 
> *Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME
> AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.*


Lily 
Since quite rightly you won't sign the addendums , I wonder if you paid your fees and got a locksmith involved (change the locks) whether they could actually throw you out ?


----------



## scoobudubai

MANUTD said:


> :yawn::yawn::yawn:
> 
> If you haven't signed you should be doing something about it or prepare to wait 10 years


What are the options if out of money to pay next installment? Does Select just forfeit all money sent over 5 years?


----------



## FWIW

micmonro1 said:


> "we note that there will be no further extension to this deadline and we will demobilize from the Building as from 30th July 2011." Sasha's letter
> 
> My response is as follows:
> 
> Since we have been waiting for 6 years for you to "demobilize" your self out of our building, I am sure many people like my self will be saying one thing which is GOOD RIDDANCE......in the meantime Sasha and co please leave our keys with the porters on your way out.
> 
> Regards, Lily
> 
> Don't be fooled or intimidated by this letter, it is a ploy to get those to sign who have not already. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO TAKE YOUR PROPERTY AWAY. THEY HAVE TO GO TO COURT THEMSELVES WHICH WILL TAKE TIME AND WILL BE COSTLY FOR THEM.


Lily,

I must say that what select are doing here is undermining the sanctity of contract law. I think you should investigate the 'economic duress' angle that select are threatening you and other torch investors with. Any judge worth his salt can see that select are applying illegitimate pressure where they are seizing on the vulnerability of torch investors to take a monopoly profit e.g. Sign addendum or wait 10 years and keep paying service charges.

I think many law schools in the uk will find this case very interesting. You should approach some to see if they can help!

All the best,

Fwiw


----------



## agod

Why Dubai said:


> Can any one answer what happens to the service charges if we have to wait 10 years for the handover ??


 Its a good point, as the owner is responsible for the service charge, and you are technically not that, you are a part owner, up to the amonut you have paid them, so the service charge should be apportionate to that..

We have a similar situation, but it is Title Deeds we are missing, because the Developer has a Mortgage on the Property, and the Bank will not release them until the loan is cleared, yes the Bank loaned money on sold properties!!! so No deeds, No HOA Bank Accounts, No JOPD, No title, No Owny, Owny.

If you really want serious grief, buy a Trident Property for a bundle of fun.

Al


----------



## Mistermark

MANUTD said:


> Lily
> Since quite rightly you won't sign the addendums , I wonder if you paid your fees and got a locksmith involved (change the locks) whether they could actually throw you out ?


I've wondered that. Were I still an owner I'd get through reception, if necessary by giving the guy on the reception some baksheesh, break in (not that it's really breaking in - it's your apartment, after all), get the locks changed, job's a good 'un. 

Remember, the courts in Dubai don't work. That's why you can't claim for your money back due to late delivery, or compensation, or any of the other mickey takes by Aslam and his court of sycophants. The uselessness of the courts means there's no way they're going to be able to do anything about it once you've taken possession.


----------



## poppies1

Have watched Torch threads for long while, now managed to register. As a one-bed apartment owner I am and have been for a long time, totally confused, and not a little scared by the entire debarcle. I am on SPP and all final payments have been made, I am still refusing to sign Addendum 1. All posts now seem to be about LPP, I appreciate LPP owners serious worry. Can anyone advise on my situation re SPP and Handover. No way can I afford legal fees or any further outlay at all. Select have brought me to the brink of 'going under'. Please can anyone help?


----------



## swans

SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?


----------



## MANUTD

Mistermark said:


> I've wondered that. Were I still an owner I'd get through reception, if necessary by giving the guy on the reception some baksheesh, break in (not that it's really breaking in - it's your apartment, after all), get the locks changed, job's a good 'un.
> 
> Remember, the courts in Dubai don't work. That's why you can't claim for your money back due to late delivery, or compensation, or any of the other mickey takes by Aslam and his court of sycophants. The uselessness of the courts means there's no way they're going to be able to do anything about it once you've taken possession.


You'd have to be sure of power i guess but DEWA wont worry as long as they had their money ! And because all pay chiller (even for your balcony or patio !! lol ) you should get your air con


----------



## MANUTD

scoobudubai said:


> What are the options if out of money to pay next installment? Does Select just forfeit all money sent over 5 years?


if you're out of money youre in trouble i'm afraid -- sad but true


----------



## FWIW

swans said:


> SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?


I think this will get very messy very quick. If the rental is greater than the service charge, then I would argue that the lpp buyer should receive a proportion of the rental income to cover their lpp quarterly costs. However, I don't think this is what rera had in mind when they stated that the unsold apartments the developer must pay service charges as per owners association laws. If select try and be clever and set the rent the same as the service charge, then all other torch investors would be undercut! This will never happen as there would be a lynch mob!

This should have been straight forward. Select the seller make an offer. Investor accepts offer and signs SPA. Investor pays lpp. Select construct the building. Investor gets property and continues paying lpp. Everybody happy! Making people sign adendums is clearly wrong as even the SPA states that any variance to the SPA must be made by both seller and buyer!


----------



## scoobudubai

MANUTD said:


> if you're out of money youre in trouble i'm afraid -- sad but true


So anything like that will be a windfall for Select, I'm sure that this will continue to happen, people on the LPP have a long 10 years ahead.


----------



## micmonro1

*Know your rights every where you live*



swans said:


> SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?


It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.

If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.

FWIW- 
1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances. 

2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.

I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.

LILY


----------



## micmonro1

SWAN wrote "SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?"



It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.

If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.

FWIW- 
1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances. 

2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
*Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.*

I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.

I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.

LILY


----------



## micmonro1

Once again, those who are serious about legal action and have the finance to take SG on, then please contact me, BUT only if you have decided and ready to commit financially. 

We are on course and will be funding it as a group. No time wasters please.

Any legal information, see my previous posts. Only PM me if you are ready to commit.

Lily


----------



## profit hunter

micmonro1 said:


> SWAN wrote "SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?"
> 
> 
> 
> It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.
> 
> If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.
> 
> FWIW-
> 1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances.
> 
> 2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
> *Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.*
> 
> I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.
> 
> I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.
> 
> LILY


Lily,

I take my hat off to you. Rahail Aslam and others from Select are laughing
all the way to the bank. It's about time someone put a stop to this daylight
robery. Good luck.


----------



## scoobudubai

profit hunter said:


> Lily,
> 
> I take my hat off to you. Rahail Aslam and others from Select are laughing
> all the way to the bank. It's about time someone put a stop to this daylight
> robery. Good luck.


I know people go on and on about Select Group, but the contract is with Torch Select Ltd an offshore company in JAFZA, not with Select Group.

Is Select Group really a UAE company? Select Holdings, to whom your Torch property would presumably be assigned should you breach the contract, is another offshore company but this time in The Seychelles, another anonymous tax haven presumably popular with the criminally minded. The intention is clear that the UAE SPA would become useless, the apartment would be 'given' to Select Holdings in The Seychelles, and that would be the end. Does anyone know Seychelle's laws?


----------



## scoobudubai

Are you saying that the money trail leads to the Seychelles for all these Select companies? Who are the beneficiaries of Select Holdings in The Seychelles? Can anyone hazard a guess?


----------



## profit hunter

scoobudubai said:


> I know people go on and on about Select Group, but the contract is with Torch Select Ltd an offshore company in JAFZA, not with Select Group.
> 
> Is Select Group really a UAE company? Select Holdings, to whom your Torch property would presumably be assigned should you breach the contract, is another offshore company but this time in The Seychelles, another anonymous tax haven presumably popular with the criminally minded. The intention is clear that the UAE SPA would become useless, the apartment would be 'given' to Select Holdings in The Seychelles, and that would be the end. Does anyone know Seychelle's laws?


You know there are so many Selects out there that it's hard to keep track
of them all. How convenient!


----------



## mackie1964

micmonro1 said:


> SWAN wrote "SG HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY WILL LOOK TO RENT OUT THOSE UNITS WHO'S OWNERS HAVE NOT SIGNED LPP ADDENDUMS TO COVER THE SERVICE CHARGES. From reading the contract if we choose not to take handover until full price paid in 10 years then it is SG responsibility- anybody clarify this?"
> 
> 
> 
> *It's simple... if you have this statement from SG in writing then it is a declaration of a criminal intent which is punishable by imprisonment under Dubai civil law. Please produce it to Dubai police and RERA.*
> 
> If it's hearsay, then dismiss it as hot air by Sasha & Co and if she or any one from SG repeat it to you then warn them that you will report it to the authority.
> 
> FWIW-
> 1- I don't need to ask lawyers in the UK (I am one) regarding signing under duress. Dubai does not recognise it as it's a contractual matter and you have agreed to it regardless of circumstances.
> 
> 2- With regards to judges (and I work with many) it's again simple:
> Put an application to court/arbitration and a judge will of course look at the case. If people just talk on this forum and don't take charge of the situation then SG will be laughing of their good fortune which brought them such gullible investors.
> 
> I and others are heading to court because we are aware of Dubai laws and have sought legal advice. I have thick skin and the more they attack me the more adamant I will be to take them to court. SO BRING IT ON.
> 
> I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who have and are supporting me to take this fight on.
> 
> LILY


I doubt if they would ever put this in writing. They are naïve but not stupid.

As for the services charges, if they refused to hand over, completion has not taken place and therefore, they can not enforce service charges for something you can't use. Completely different story to Uncle Al's Trident stuff.

I have been speaking to an ex-Select employee and my advisor is currently drafting a statement to agree on, sign and getting it certified. We have also a few nice surprises for the Select Mob. Crooks always get what they deserve and I will not stop also until I get justice for a few people.

The guys in the UK lied to me up to very recently, face to face too from what I just found our recently and I intend in making sure that they pay for making me look like a fool. 

All the best to you too on your path for justice. I had my doubts about you but it looks like I may have been wrong about you and you are not the same lady that spoke to my wife a few weeks back.

To quote Ezekiel (and Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction)

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. 

And you will know my name when I lay my vengeance upon thee. :cheers:


----------



## scoobudubai

mackie1964 said:


> I doubt if they would ever put this in writing. They are naïve but not stupid.
> 
> As for the services charges, if they refused to hand over, completion has not taken place and therefore, they can not enforce service charges for something you can't use. Completely different story to Uncle Al's Trident stuff.
> 
> I have been speaking to an ex-Select employee and my advisor is currently drafting a statement to agree on, sign and getting it certified. We have also a few nice surprises for the Select Mob. Crooks always get what they deserve and I will not stop also until I get justice for a few people.
> 
> The guys in the UK lied to me up to very recently, face to face too from what I just found our recently and I intend in making sure that they pay for making me look like a fool.
> 
> All the best to you too on your path for justice. I had my doubts about you but it looks like I may have been wrong about you and you are not the same lady that spoke to my wife a few weeks back.
> 
> To quote Ezekiel (and Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction)
> 
> The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.
> 
> And you will know my name when I lay my vengeance upon thee. :cheers:


Well this ex-employee strategy is paying some dividends for us too, but we have more work to do.

Does anyone have contact details for Katie Moore and Jillian Griffett (note spelling). There are several other ex-employees but just those two in this posting.

Mackie - I hope the vengeance to which you refer will not end in knee operations as per Mr. Marks posting? As we said this is a disgusting attitude and 2 rights do not make a wrong.
Nice of you to refer to us as 'brothers'.


----------



## MANUTD

scoobudubai said:


> Are you saying that the money trail leads to the Seychelles for all these Select companies? Who are the beneficiaries of Select Holdings in The Seychelles? Can anyone hazard a guess?


Whats your point ?? Dont worry about who owns what that wont help anyway -Concentrate on helping Lily I would if I were on LTPP --


----------



## scoobudubai

Need some wisdom from e.g. Lily.

The assignment letter that people signed, e.g. an extremely foolish scoobudubai, means that the investment SPA is completely thrown out after e.g. 2 months of non-payment, and the investment (i.e. ALL your money) moves to a new owner in The Seychelles, with presumably the intention that such an infortunate investor would have -NO- legal recourse anywhere...would that not demonstrate again that Select are out to effectively 'steal' investors money whereever possible at the earliest opportunity?

The assignment agreement said Select Holdings Ltd, but absolutely no mention that this company is an offshore company in - The Seychelles - !! subject to god knows what jurisdiction, maybe none! might as well sue a black hole if you are unfortunate to get that far.

Lily what say as you are a legal expert
Am I wrong?


----------



## scoobudubai

scoobudubai said:


> Need some wisdom from e.g. Lily.
> 
> The assignment letter that people signed, e.g. an extremely foolish scoobudubai, means that the investment SPA is completely thrown out after e.g. 2 months of non-payment, and the investment (i.e. ALL your money) moves to a new owner in The Seychelles, with presumably the intention that such an infortunate investor would have -NO- legal recourse anywhere...would that not demonstrate again that Select are out to effectively 'steal' investors money whereever possible at the earliest opportunity?
> 
> The assignment agreement said Select Holdings Ltd, but absolutely no mention that this company is an offshore company in - The Seychelles - !! subject to god knows what jurisdiction, maybe none! might as well sue a black hole if you are unfortunate to get that far.
> 
> Lily what say as you are a legal expert
> Am I wrong?


sorry - self proclaimed!


----------



## micmonro1

*Final Notice*

*Attention to All Those Who Are Seeking Legal Action*

If you wish to join me to take legal action, then please PM me, but only those who are serious, committed financially and willing to take it all the way if SG does not retreat its position from handing over unconditionally.

I can only take people who are genuine, serious and committed, and strong willed, where trust is paramount. If you are uncertain about my credentials, please see my previous posts and support I have had from others. I am a criminal lawyer in the UK and I am only trying to help those who are in the same position as me.

*The deadline to join us is set to 25th July 2011.* This deadline is not going to be extended, and I will not respond to any enquiries after that date. I hope you will understand that we have not got time to waste and time is of the essence to act. 
Regards
Lily


----------



## micmonro1

*Final Notice*

*Attention to All Those Who Are Seeking Legal Action*

If you wish to join me to take legal action, then please PM me, but only those who are serious, committed financially and willing to take it all the way if SG does not retreat its position from handing over unconditionally.

I can only take people who are genuine, serious and committed, and strong willed, where trust is paramount. If you are uncertain about my credentials, please see my previous posts and support I have had from others. I am a criminal lawyer in the UK and I am only trying to help those who are in the same position as me.

*The deadline to join us is set to 25th July 2011*. This deadline is not going to be extended, and I will not respond to any enquiries after that date. I hope you will understand that we have not got time to waste and time is of the essence to act. 
Regards
Lily


----------



## rbuster8

scoobudubai said:


> sorry - self proclaimed!


Excellent, your twisted logic astounds! Still gunning for Lily? WHY?? So they haven't fired you yet,, but you've been exposed. Haven't you? Go on,, keep it up. It's actually good reading. You and Dubai Steve.


----------



## swans

I know that one employee bought an 06 2 bed unit low floor around the same time that I purchased mine- old numbering I believe 1006 or 1206- I will look through my old emails paperwork to see if I can get the name.


----------



## Why Dubai

Has any one had any contact with the Serious Fraud Office yet ??


----------



## scoobudubai

Why Dubai said:


> Has any one had any contact with the Serious Fraud Office yet ??


Yes many. To those who have not yet done so the next few days are very important, please file your fraud report URGENTLY - just my recommendation.

The address is 

[email protected]


----------



## scoobudubai

How do the beneficiaries of Select Holdings in the Seychelles repatriate money from their pot of gold there? possibly all the 'profits' from torch select ltd, point development ltd etc go there.

I saw this, but am otherwise intrigued:
€100,000 a Month Offshore Anonymous Mastercard
We can offer up to 5 Anonymous Mastercard's that allows us to set a daily and monthly limits for ATM withdrawals, POS purchases as well as Internet purchases up to €100,000 a month as this is a fully working Mastercard with chip and is attached to a direct wire account for the card, not a shared or pooled account.

Card is issued by an fully licensed offshore bank with physical branches (not an Internet only bank) and can be obtained in any name you wish and couriered to any address you wish, thus it is very private. Note: we will not release the name of this bank or card under any circumstances for enhanced security and privacy of the card so please don't ask.


----------



## Ben44

What about the News of the World..


----------



## captain_caveman

I have yet to have any response from the SFO. Has anyone else?


----------



## scoobudubai

captain_caveman said:


> I have yet to have any response from the SFO. Has anyone else?


It can take up to 20 days apparently.


----------



## haroonr

Are they any UAE nationals invested in select??


----------



## haroonr

Anyone have information on Mr Brady?? Select Director??


----------



## shakka

haroonr said:


> Are they any UAE nationals invested in select??


Thats a great question! UAE Nationals wouldnt put up with this.


----------



## Bling08

Unfortunately we are in the process of signing paper work and getting our handover date, as we do not have the funds to fight Select and feel that we don't have any other option. I wish you all the best guys and will of course keep you updated on our situation. Good luck.


----------



## mackie1964

micmonro1 said:


> If any investors are thinking of investing with Select Property (aka Select Group in Dubai) BE VERY AWARE of this company who have this stitching people up for years.
> 
> I invested in the Torch development in Dubai Marina through Select Property who purported to be a direct developer and gave the impression that my investment is safe in their hands as they are UK based. DO NOT FALL FOR THIS.
> 
> I am a UK lawyer and I even got drawn into their misleading sales tactics. Select Group (who only disclosed themselves as the developers later) are now refusing to hand over my unit unless I sign very unfair addendums unless I pay up the long payment plan which I am tied up to for another 10 years!
> 
> I know people from the Point development in Dubai Marina, many from the Torch who contacted me who are trapped and even Bay Central investors whose project is delayed like ours (which was a 3 year delay).
> 
> *I and others are now taking LEGAL ACTION against Select Group.* Please follow my posts on the Torch Completed thread and Select thread where I have posted legal advice with Dubai law and articles.
> 
> For Bay Central investors you are entitled to get your full refund for breach of contract.
> 
> Lily
> 
> PS I know Select Group (a sub-developer) cronies will be attacking this post and my integrity but I am determined to take SG on until I get justice for myself and others.


This was in the investment thread.

Why is she banned? Select complaining maybe :dunno:


----------



## mackie1964

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ I am all for legal action for late delivery.
> 
> *Mackie however knew when the delivery date would be, we even made a bet about it and his estimate was very close to the actual date of delivery. So he knew many years ago about the actual delivery date yet still talked about how he would fit out the apartment and "get it right' etc. So a bit confused who is taking legal action for what. It all seems messy to me.*
> High Times (Nemisis) also knew when delivery would be and knew about the addendum's they would need to sign. Now they realize there is a more lucrative route to get a refund by collecting negative evidence about Select in order to get a court case together to secure a refund they are going on that route instead. I am sure he realises that this is a better option now that renting 3 beds out at a recession level income of the price of a 2 bed and not being able to cover the LPP payments. Yet claims are made this is on the basis of principal when they had already read the addendums of the Point several years before that. Sure its human nature to take the most financially viable route. Interesting to watch.
> 
> Meanwhile scooby is trying to make a website on Select in order to try and make a deal with Select to take it down in return for a refund as she saw that someone else had done similar things in the past.
> 
> Of course my ramblings sound like I am defending Select. This is not the case at all, they have been very devious and need justice brought against them. Just some observations.


You are wrong here Steve. I am not after a refund and could have had a refund if I wanted but, It's not about money any more. I have a contract and never expected an addendum. The first time I heard of an addendum was on the point and made it clear to Select face to face then that I have a contract in place and would accept nothing else. :cheers:


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> Why would you expect not to loose your apartment if you do not make any mortgage payments for more than 6 months :dunno:


Good to have your opinion for what it is worth. Who the hell in their right mind would sign a U.K. mortgage agreement, and then be asked to sign an additional agreement which meant that after 2 missed payments the property would be handed over to a dodgy offshore company in The Seychelles, the agreement in the U.K. would be waived, with no rights left in the U.K. !!

The agreement most of us if not all signed said 'Select Holdings Ltd' no mention that this company was in The Seychelles, nor the fact that it was a 'secret' offshore company.

I personally associate offshore companies in The Seychelles with criminality e.g tax evasion, money laundering etc. Some might be ok, but tell me I am wrong?
The Seychelles is used typically as there is 'apparently' total confidentiality, just like Switzerland 15 years ago where all the mafia movies showed the mafia & U.S. mobs with accounts there.

Tell me I am wrong, Dubai Stevie Wonder.

p.s. The 'assignment' letter I've been told will appear under Torch Select Ltd. on the www.selectdubaibeware.com website, a site which was set up to warn the public.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ You could have something there. I was always suspicious about the Seychelles thing from the beginning and the fact that the owner wanted to remain anonymous but turned a blind eye as I just wanted to own an apartment in Dubai at the time I bought in during the boom years and all the Dubai hype. The LPP was a way in for me at the time, I knew the risks (ie. non payments = loss of apartment) and went along with them. The 3 year or so delay almost wiped me out financially also. At least I have an apartment now and it is rented out so have a good chance of making it to the end. I would rather that than go the expensive and possibly unrewarding legal route in Dubai. I always knew off-plan would be a risk. I invested in other countries and lost everything (some court cases pending), at least I have some hope here.


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ You could have something there. I was always suspicious about the Seychelles thing from the beginning and the fact that the owner wanted to remain anonymous but turned a blind eye as I just wanted to own an apartment in Dubai at the time I bought in during the boom years and all the Dubai hype. The LPP was a way in for me at the time, I knew the risks (ie. non payments = loss of apartment) and went along with them. The 3 year or so delay almost wiped me out financially also. At least I have an apartment now and it is rented out so have a good chance of making it to the end. I would rather that than go the expensive and possibly unrewarding legal route in Dubai. I always knew off-plan would be a risk. I invested in other countries and lost everything (some court cases pending), at least I have some hope here.


We also realised the risk to some extent, and our due diligence 'efforts' included discussions with Adam Price about what we thought were the 'riskier' clauses, however we never knew that the meaning of the contract would be completely twisted at the end, towards completion. In fact we are not aware if completion has yet occurred as we have no completion date.


----------



## micmonro1

*Notice*

I am reminding people that the dead line is looming.....
25 July 2011 
Please read my previous posts after that time.
Lily


----------



## Select Victim

What would the costs be? Indicative would be good at this stage.


----------



## scoobudubai

micmonro1 said:


> I am reminding people that the dead line is looming.....
> 25 July 2011
> Please read my previous posts after that time.
> Lily


Will not be taking you up on this. Have some doubts about you, and your legal abilities. But always good to see your postings.


----------



## scoobudubai

Can anyone think of a way to exploit the TIEA between The Netherlands and The Seychelles to unravel Select Holdings Ltd?

I guess it's possible that money flows from Dubai offshore companies Torch Select Ltd, Point Development Ltd etc directly over to Select Holdings Ltd offshore company in The Seychelles, without ever touching the Select Group bank a/c ? Has anyone seen Select Holdings in any organisation chart?


----------



## MANUTD

scoobudubai said:


> Can anyone think of a way to exploit the TIEA between The Netherlands and The Seychelles to unravel Select Holdings Ltd?
> 
> I guess it's possible that money flows from Dubai offshore companies Torch Select Ltd, Point Development Ltd etc directly over to Select Holdings Ltd offshore company in The Seychelles, without ever touching the Select Group bank a/c ? Has anyone seen Select Holdings in any organisation chart?


Barking up wrong tree -- you would be better working with Lily -- if i was on LTPP I would be unquestionably :cheers:


----------



## scoobudubai

MANUTD said:


> Barking up wrong tree -- you would be better working with Lily -- if i was on LTPP I would be unquestionably :cheers:


...


----------



## 234sale

I'm a ManU supporter..






will ban the lot of ya's if ya put me team down..


----------



## ab31

Check out todays Sunday Express.
An article on Select and the Torch.
Although not all we perhaps expected , and not particularly damaging to Select, it is a start with more to come.
If you want to help, contact the Sunday Express.


----------



## shakka

ab31 said:


> Check out todays Sunday Express.
> An article on Select and the Torch.
> Although not all we perhaps expected , and not particularly damaging to Select, it is a start with more to come.
> If you want to help, contact the Sunday Express.


http://www.selectdubaibeware.com/Se...s/Article_On_Sunday_Express_24thJuly_2011.pdf


----------



## True Blue

Dubai_Steve said:


> Why would you expect not to loose your apartment if you do not make any mortgage payments for more than 6 months :dunno:


I think the main point is that they didn't expect to lose all the invested money also. Using your analogy of a UK mortgage, the bank would sell the asset, pay off the outstanding debt and charges and refund the surplus. Select keep the asset and the money, double edged sword.


----------



## poppies1

Please can someone urgently post e-mail address for Rahail Aslam, so that I can immediately contact him to 'thank him' for agreeing, IN PRINT that on 'paying the full price', (as an ssp customer I have), I can take 'immediate possession without having to sign the documents' !!! Anyone else in this position?


----------



## Zengana

*Utter rubbish*



poppies1 said:


> Please can someone urgently post e-mail address for Rahail Aslam, so that I can immediately contact him to 'thank him' for agreeing, IN PRINT that on 'paying the full price', (as an ssp customer I have), I can take 'immediate possession without having to sign the documents' !!! Anyone else in this position?


Please don't write this kind of miss leading information on this forum, I know several investors who have paid the full amount and they still had to sign *addendum 1* which get SG of the hook from any future claims for poor work and compensation.


----------



## MANUTD

poppies1 said:


> Please can someone urgently post e-mail address for Rahail Aslam, so that I can immediately contact him to 'thank him' for agreeing, IN PRINT that on 'paying the full price', (as an ssp customer I have), I can take 'immediate possession without having to sign the documents' !!! Anyone else in this position?


ARTICLE in SUNDAY EXPRESS is clear to me UNLESS you sign addendum you can't take possession --get a mortgage in DUBAI (in DUBAI LOL !!) and sign up everything is rosy --what is the pont of taking out LTPP in the first place if you were able to get mortgage ??


----------



## J39

The Sunday Express are looking to do a follow up article on Select Property/ Dubai Select/ Select Group .
If you feel you have been misled or lied to by any of these companies, or you feel the delivered product does not live up to what was promised, or you have any other grievances, then James Murray wants to know by Thursday, 28 th of July.
[email protected]


----------



## poppies1

My post is not 'utter rubbish', was meant to express irony / sarcasm etc, whilst putting Mr Aslam on the spot !! Article clearly states that '...all customers (on long term payment plans) have the option of paying the full price for their property and taking immediate possession without having to sign the documents'. As an SSP customer who has paid, IN FULL, the same rule re ' without having to sign the documents' must also apply, immediately!


----------



## Zengana

*I am not good with irony*



poppies1 said:


> My post is not 'utter rubbish', was meant to express irony / sarcasm etc, whilst putting Mr Aslam on the spot !! Article clearly states that '...all customers (on long term payment plans) have the option of paying the full price for their property and taking immediate possession without having to sign the documents'. As an SSP customer who has paid, IN FULL, the same rule re ' without having to sign the documents' must also apply, immediately!


Hi popies, I am sorry that misunderstood you mate. but wouldn't you agree with me that anything Aslam say is not worth the paper its written on it.
Take the time to google his history and it will freak you to know what is his background.


----------



## Zengana

*I am for this too*



J39 said:


> The Sunday Express are looking to do a follow up article on Select Property/ Dubai Select/ Select Group .
> If you feel you have been misled or lied to by any of these companies, or you feel the delivered product does not live up to what was promised, or you have any other grievances, then James Murray wants to know by Thursday, 28 th of July.
> [email protected]


I will send him an email too....thank you J39


----------



## Zengana

*Be aware*



Zengana said:


> I will send him an email too....thank you J39


I know several investors who has paid the full price after SG refused to handover the units and they forced them to sign addundum 1 which takes away investor's rights to claim cost for poor work and compensation from the developer SG.


----------



## Zengana

Zengana said:


> Hi popies, I am sorry that misunderstood you mate. but wouldn't you agree with me that anything Aslam say is not worth the paper its written on it.
> Take the time to google his history and it will freak you to know what is his background.


:nuts:


----------



## FlyJim

*What is the law in Dubai for this?*

Surely, like in other countries, there is a law for new-builds that stipulates a guarantee period, eg. 10 years, during which structural defects must be rectified by the builder/developer at their cost.

Does anyone know the situation in Dubai?
Perhaps this is one of the new laws forthcoming, so making Addendum 1 obsolete?


----------



## FWIW

J39 said:


> The Sunday Express are looking to do a follow up article on Select Property/ Dubai Select/ Select Group .
> If you feel you have been misled or lied to by any of these companies, or you feel the delivered product does not live up to what was promised, or you have any other grievances, then James Murray wants to know by Thursday, 28 th of July.
> [email protected]


From the torch thread:

Correct e-mail address is 
[email protected]


----------



## J39

FWIW said:


> From the torch thread:
> 
> Correct e-mail address is
> [email protected]


Sorry for my mistake, I have corrected the address now.


----------



## 234sale

MANUTD said:


> ARTICLE in SUNDAY EXPRESS is clear to me UNLESS you sign addendum you can't take possession --get a mortgage in DUBAI (in DUBAI LOL !!) and sign up everything is rosy --what is the pont of taking out LTPP in the first place if you were able to get mortgage ??


Can get you a mortgage if u need ManU


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ Which UAE banks are lending on the Torch?


----------



## 234sale

^^ Good Question...

Remember one mortgage per customer is a rule they are following..

Will pass info through PM only as dont want to start investment discussion in threads..

Though Special deal for MANU supports only..


----------



## 234sale

FlyJim said:


> Surely, like in other countries, there is a law for new-builds that stipulates a guarantee period, eg. 10 years, during which structural defects must be rectified by the builder/developer at their cost.
> 
> Does anyone know the situation in Dubai?
> Perhaps this is one of the new laws forthcoming, so making Addendum 1 obsolete?


Structual 10 years,, Snaging 1


----------



## scoobudubai

234sale said:


> ^^ Good Question...
> 
> Remember one mortgage per customer is a rule they are following..
> 
> Will pass info through PM only as dont want to start investment discussion in threads..
> 
> Though Special deal for MANU supports only..


"Thank you for your interest in applying for a mortgage through Barclays Bank PLC. 

Under our current lending policy we unfortunately do not lend to non- UAE residents. "


----------



## Imre

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ Which UAE banks are lending on the Torch?


Banks are not financing without title deed.

I had a buyer but the deal was cancelled because of the title deed.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ How can I get the title deed?


----------



## Imre

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ How can I get the title deed?


As I know the Select already submitted the drawings (over 950) to the Land Department ,after need the internal approval, maybe this is already done.

After they will join a queue with other projects , after the first set of title deed can be issued in the developer name and after you can apply the individual title deeds so it takes around 3-4 months but can be even longer.


----------



## poppies1

Ta for apology Zengana. I've exchanged a number of e-mails with Paul Brady since this morning. Long story short Mr Brady said 'The article did not wholly reflect our CEO's comments', .......'so please complete the necessary formalities and we will arrange your handover, as a priority'.
In my latest e-mail I informed Mr Brady that I would be contacting the Express to ask them to investigate as to whether the Select CEO's quotes must either constitute false statements by him or misrepresentation by the newspaper. I have sent copies of all today's correspondence to James Murray. I made it clear to Mr Murray where I place my trust on this issue, and that is certainly NOT in a Company based in Dubai, Seychelles et al.Unfortunately it seems the e-mail address was incorrect, I will now re-send.


----------



## Mistermark

poppies1 said:


> Ta for apology Zengana. I've exchanged a number of e-mails with Paul Brady since this morning. Long story short Mr Brady said 'The article did not wholly reflect our CEO's comments', .......'so please complete the necessary formalities and we will arrange your handover, as a priority'.


All of which confirms what we already knew - that Aslam is a lying scammer.

Now all we need is a follow-up by the paper confirming that owners are indeed being refused occupancy of their own apartments unless they sign away their rights.


----------



## MANUTD

FlyJim said:


> Surely, like in other countries, there is a law for new-builds that stipulates a guarantee period, eg. 10 years, during which structural defects must be rectified by the builder/developer at their cost.
> 
> Does anyone know the situation in Dubai?
> Perhaps this is one of the new laws forthcoming, so making Addendum 1 obsolete?


Iwould Suggest Addendum 1 makes obsolete ANY claims for badworkmanship in the future -- many are interested in the future law at THE POINT -- could be a way for some recompense from SELECT who have overseen an inferior product being delivered at that site


----------



## Zengana

*I thank you too*



poppies1 said:


> Ta for apology Zengana. I've exchanged a number of e-mails with Paul Brady since this morning. Long story short Mr Brady said 'The article did not wholly reflect our CEO's comments', .......'so please complete the necessary formalities and we will arrange your handover, as a priority'.
> In my latest e-mail I informed Mr Brady that I would be contacting the Express to ask them to investigate as to whether the Select CEO's quotes must either constitute false statements by him or misrepresentation by the newspaper. I have sent copies of all today's correspondence to James Murray. I made it clear to Mr Murray where I place my trust on this issue, and that is certainly NOT in a Company based in Dubai, Seychelles et al.Unfortunately it seems the e-mail address was incorrect, I will now re-send.


Thanks poppies, 
Believe me, when I say that these people will tell you anything to let you have a sense of security until it comes to putting there promises on paper then you will see their true colour. 

Talking to Lily (the decent lady MANUTD recommended) made me more aware of their tactics. Big thank you MANUTD:cheers:


----------



## scoobudubai

When did Rahail Aslam actually get involved in this for the first time? Was he there in the background in 2005/06/07 when the '3' Dubai Selects, Dubai Select in the U.K. (dubaiselect.co.uk emails) & it's office in Dubai also Dubai Select (dubaiselect.com emails), and Dubai Select in Dubai (apparently 2 -completely different companies here even though the 2 Dubai Selects in Dubai had the same tel & fax nbr) had everyone fooled? The last of these, Dubai Select (the 'developer') never produced emails in that period, unless someone proves me wrong.

Or did he appear in 2008 when one was Select Group in Dubai (CEO RA) and the other completely unrelated company was Select Group International in Wilmslow (CEO MS)?


----------



## poppies1

Zengana, sent copies of all yesterday's correspondence between me and PB to James Murray at the Express. He e-mailed me today explaining he is on holidays this week, but will study the correspondence on his return. I told him I could only see two alternatives. Either the CEO of Select gave deliberately misleading information or CEO was misquoted !!. I know where the smart money is going (Irony / Sarcasm). Cheers.


----------



## glover

^^^^ here is something i posted about 2 months ago.

"Article 7(1) of the Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 clearly forbids the developer from refusing to handover the completed unit of an off-plan apartment if the buyer has fulfilled all his obligations.

If Select insists on signing the addendum, take all documents to RERA/Legal Department in LD.

ARTICLE 7(1)
The Master developer or sub-developer may not, when the real estate project is completed and the developer has obtained the Certificate of Completion from the competent authorities, refuse to handover or register the real estate unit under the name of the Buyer in the Real Estate Registry, so long as the Buyer has fulfilled all his contractual obligations, even if there was any other financial obligations due to the Developer from the Buyer not arising from the Sale Contract of the real estate unit. (my translation)"


----------



## micmonro1

*Damac case*



scoobudubai said:


> It's also a bit worrying that nobody can say that after 3 years there has been a even a single success in court.


John, please do your homework before you make comments. Everyone is talking about the Damac case and this is one case of many, and plenty going through the legal system. 
In any case, I am going to take SG to court but all you do is talk about it, which can only mean that you are fake and helping SG or you are just off your rock. As rbuster says, you do amuse us though.

You will have to get your own legal advice re FM, please don't pick my brain.
As for our own lawyer, all will be revealed in good time.

Lily


----------



## scoobudubai

micmonro1 said:


> John, please do your homework before you make comments. Everyone is talking about the Damac case and this is one case of many, and plenty going through the legal system.
> In any case, I am going to take SG to court but all you do is talk about it, which can only mean that you are fake and helping SG or you are just off your rock. As rbuster says, you do amuse us though.
> 
> You will have to get your own legal advice re FM, please don't pick my brain.
> As for our own lawyer, all will be revealed in good time.
> 
> Lily


The Damac case is so famous, The Irish couple. I'm not aware of any other stories of success, and I'll bet that Irish couple spent a fortune to get there. But what about The Torch? 650 apartments, surely someone has won a case by now? after 3 years? 
I was wondering if you could ask your partner about Force Majeure, as I hear he has strong opinions on all these matters (Middle East law etc). Most of the lawyers I spoke to indicated in their own gentle words that the legal system in Dubai is unpredictable to say the least, and generally in favour of the developer.


----------



## scoobudubai

glover said:


> ^^^^ here is something i posted about 2 months ago.
> 
> "Article 7(1) of the Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 clearly forbids the developer from refusing to handover the completed unit of an off-plan apartment if the buyer has fulfilled all his obligations.
> 
> If Select insists on signing the addendum, take all documents to RERA/Legal Department in LD.
> 
> ARTICLE 7(1)
> The Master developer or sub-developer may not, when the real estate project is completed and the developer has obtained the Certificate of Completion from the competent authorities, refuse to handover or register the real estate unit under the name of the Buyer in the Real Estate Registry, so long as the Buyer has fulfilled all his contractual obligations, even if there was any other financial obligations due to the Developer from the Buyer not arising from the Sale Contract of the real estate unit. (my translation)"


Thanks glover, for me it's a very interesting idea. I hate the idea of throwing money at lawyers and the ridiculously expensive arbitration court thing, however I might one day soon.

Is this idea really feasible, i.e. stop making the LPP payments and complain to the Land Dept about the keys & addendum when they notify you that Select wishes to forfeit all your money? I wonder if more of us can take this approach, and if turns out that the land dept does not care then will interest be due?


----------



## MANUTD

glover said:


> ^^^^ here is something i posted about 2 months ago.
> 
> "Article 7(1) of the Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 clearly forbids the developer from refusing to handover the completed unit of an off-plan apartment if the buyer has fulfilled all his obligations.
> 
> If Select insists on signing the addendum, take all documents to RERA/Legal Department in LD.
> 
> ARTICLE 7(1)
> The Master developer or sub-developer may not, when the real estate project is completed and the developer has obtained the Certificate of Completion from the competent authorities, refuse to handover or register the real estate unit under the name of the Buyer in the Real Estate Registry, so long as the Buyer has fulfilled all his contractual obligations, even if there was any other financial obligations due to the Developer from the Buyer not arising from the Sale Contract of the real estate unit. (my translation)"


Seems plausible and worth pursuing -- RERA shouid uphold this but they seem to be advising owners go legal -- yet this seems straight forward --good stuff


----------



## glover

^^^^^ if you default and select goes to the land department, and you eventually get a notice from LD, explain to them that you deliberately withheld your payment because Select breached the SPA and broke the law. if they tell you go to the courts, they might also tell Select the same, that the land department cannot cancel the contract because there seems to be a legal issue here that needs to be resolved first, and if Select wants to cancel the contract and forfeit all monies, they have the courts . you never know!!! in that case, Select will be stuck with so many apartments and no LPP payments.


----------



## MANUTD

glover said:


> ^^^^^ if you default and select goes to the land department, and you eventually get a notice from LD, explain to them that you deliberately withheld your payment because Select breached the SPA and broke the law. if they tell you go to the courts, they might also tell Select the same, that the land department cannot cancel the contract because there seems to be a legal issue here that needs to be resolved first, and if Select wants to cancel the contract and forfeit all monies, they have the courts . you never know!!! in that case, Select will be stuck with so many apartments and no LPP payments.


^^Hence the e-mail to meet in London -- spooky but spot on Glover


----------



## Mr Koryzma

scoobudubai said:


> Lily - didn't you bring your partner, an Iraqi Legal person to one of those Torch meetings, who tried to stir up group action? He was not even an investor in The Torch.
> 
> Anyhow you are free to make comments on Force Majeure - and whether it's significant that no completion date has been provided. Dubai lawyers I've spoken to can't seem to agree. It's also a bit worrying that nobody can say that after 3 years there has been a even a single success in court.


Yet another vague, ambiguous criticism of Lily and her ("Iraqi legal person") partner who tried to stir up group action". What exactly do you mean by this statement? "Dubai Lawyers you have spoken to",, Name one?,, Sasha??? Why specify that Lilys partner is Iraqi? What's that got to do with anything on this forum? Are you all racist? You really are hilarious! Why should you be concerned about ANYTHING Lily says or does? Do you lose sleep over this? You continue to expose yourselves more frequently on this forum. Here is a tip for you if you want to maintain the influence you have over some guillable people on this forum. Get together with the all the other people who collectively are Scoobodubai and Dubai Steve. Arrange a regular meeting and try to agree on some form of consistency. If you don't do this even the gullable and naive will see through you all. Try and meet at least once daily over some coffee or something. Speak to each other openly about your next move to counteract the insurgents on the forum. Don't take it personally. It's just a job! Take some time and count to ten before responding to Lily's posts. You are far too quick to jump to conclusions and it's becoming evident in your responses that she is seriously annoying a number of you. Lighten up, especially with the racist comments. Angry people,,,greedy people,,, It's just not cricket!


----------



## agod

scoobudubai said:


> The Damac case is so famous, The Irish couple. I'm not aware of any other stories of success, and I'll bet that Irish couple spent a fortune to get there. But what about The Torch? 650 apartments, surely someone has won a case by now? after 3 years?
> I was wondering if you could ask your partner about Force Majeure, as I hear he has strong opinions on all these matters (Middle East law etc). Most of the lawyers I spoke to indicated in their own gentle words that the legal system in Dubai is unpredictable to say the least, and generally in favour of the developer.




That Irish couple, are still waiting for Damac to pay out, I beleive, and costs where abot 200.000.

The reason they won their case, might be due to the fact, that their building is situated in the DIFC Freezone, whose court system is run on the lines of the British Justice and Laws.

A.


----------



## glover

^^^^ actually, they got paid few days ago, minus the legal fees which are still in dispute.
--------------------------

*Damac drags its heels in AED1.7m apartment dispute*

By Shane McGinley

* Thursday, 28 July 2011 11:33 AM

It’s understood DIFC Court this week issued an interim charging order against the developer ordering it to comply with the ruling.

“Full payment has been made as per the terms of the charging order. The remaining issue relates to costs which were not the subject of the charge order,” said Niall McLoughlin, senior vice president of corporate communications at Damac.

Kaashif Basit, a partner at KBH Kaanuun and counsel to the Gaffneys, said further costs still remained to be settled with the developer.

“The cheques they sent us were not correct and not accepted by my clients as it did not include payment of additional judgment interest and costs. They have today [Thursday] given us new cheques to include judgment interest but further costs still remain an issue,” Basit said.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/damac-drags-its-heels-in-aed1-7m-apartment-dispute-412869.html


----------



## scoobudubai

Mr Koryzma said:


> Yet another vague, ambiguous criticism of Lily and her ("Iraqi legal person") partner who tried to stir up group action". What exactly do you mean by this statement? "Dubai Lawyers you have spoken to",, Name one?,, Sasha??? Why specify that Lilys partner is Iraqi? What's that got to do with anything on this forum? Are you all racist? You really are hilarious! Why should you be concerned about ANYTHING Lily says or does? Do you lose sleep over this? You continue to expose yourselves more frequently on this forum. Here is a tip for you if you want to maintain the influence you have over some guillable people on this forum. Get together with the all the other people who collectively are Scoobodubai and Dubai Steve. Arrange a regular meeting and try to agree on some form of consistency. If you don't do this even the gullable and naive will see through you all. Try and meet at least once daily over some coffee or something. Speak to each other openly about your next move to counteract the insurgents on the forum. Don't take it personally. It's just a job! Take some time and count to ten before responding to Lily's posts. You are far too quick to jump to conclusions and it's becoming evident in your responses that she is seriously annoying a number of you. Lighten up, especially with the racist comments. Angry people,,,greedy people,,, It's just not cricket!


The way I understand it -> is Lily turned up with her partner at a London meeting, who said he was from Iraq - Baghdad, and said he was in the legal profession, he did most of the talking during the meeting, said several times he would contact El Arabia to publish a media article, and was interested in group legal action.


----------



## Mr Koryzma

scoobudubai said:


> The way I understand it -> is Lily turned up with her partner at a London meeting, who said he was from Iraq - Baghdad, and said he was in the legal profession, he did most of the talking during the meeting, said several times he would contact El Arabia to publish a media article, and was interested in group legal action.


 "The way you understand it".... more vague references to a meeting you never attended. Aren't you even a little but offended by my assertion? Speaks volumes! A real investor would most likely be a bit frustrated. Not you though,,, not even a flicker. You've got too much to lose haven't you?


----------



## Mr Koryzma

scoobudubai said:


> I've had a very interesting suggestion from someone on the forum, simply stop paying the LPP. Wait for the land department to write to you about the default, then complain that Select is witholding the keys.


 Yes,,, then lose your unit for breach of contract,,,, are you on commision for each unit that gets repossessed following your excellent advice? Probably so.


----------



## glover

^^^^^ Are you trying to get back at scoobudubai with this statement! otherwise, it would show that you are completely ignorant of the laws here in dubai!


----------



## Imre

Its confirmed , tomorrow SSC banner from The Torch



Imre said:


> Dubai Marina and Jumeirah Lakes Towers , Dubai,UAE
> Taken by me, 29/July/2011 ( from the world's tallest residential towers ,The Torch )
> 
> Link: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=82344388#post82344388





Jan said:


> Excellent banners guys, thanks!
> 
> Aug 2: Galgary
> *Aug 3: Dubai*
> Aug 4: San Diego
> Aug 5: Rostov
> Aug 6: Nanaimo
> Aug 7: Sacramento


----------



## Sid

Mr Koryzma said:


> "The way you understand it".... more vague references to a meeting you never attended. Aren't you even a little but offended by my assertion? Speaks volumes! A real investor would most likely be a bit frustrated. Not you though,,, not even a flicker. You've got too much to lose haven't you?


^^
He was at the meeting, and some of what he said is true.

He's a bit of a **** but you got to admire his persistance. :lol:


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## Dubai_Steve

I thought scooby was a female :dunno:

What is with this - scooby is 7 different people thing?


----------



## Redders

*Ceasing LPP Payments*

With regards to LPP installments, please be very aware of your obligations here folks. If you stop paying you will be in default and you could lose ALL your money and of course the property. I appointed a solicitor back in June after receiving Select's proposed handover documents, which I believe are nothing short of criminal. She has advised me I have to continue to make payments, at least until an arbitration case is filed (which I am planning to do). Even then, she believes its risky to stop paying installments, as per her recent email below:

_"I have queried with the Land Department whether they would take a buyer off the interim register if a developer serves the buyer with a default notice and the buyer fails to pay in the 30 day notice period, but the buyer has already filed a case at arbitration. I have received three different answers from three different people who really ought to know the answer. I think therefore that the safest thing to do is to keep making payments until an arbitration award is obtained. The alternative and worst case scenario is that an investor stops making payments (on the basis of the dispute) gets removed from the register, and then loses at arbitration. They would then also have lost their purchase..."_

Whilst I am loathed to keep coughing up cash every quarter, I really dont want to lose the 100k already invested. Caveat emptor!


----------



## glover

^^^^^ sorry to say so, but your lawyer doesn't know what she is talking about, and i would be careful about hiring her and/or her law firm! i bet you she is non-arabic speaker who has little experience in the UAE legal system.

i speak here from first hand experience. lawyers like yours who are not sure how the system works should be avoided and their word should always be in doubt imo.

but please do what your are comfortable with, and kudos to you for standing up to select.


----------



## Mistermark

glover said:


> ^^^^^ sorry to say so, but your lawyer doesn't know what she is talking about, and i would be careful about hiring her and/or her law firm! i bet you she is non-arabic speaker who has little experience in the UAE legal system.
> 
> i speak here from first hand experience. lawyers like yours who are not sure how the system works should be avoided and their word should always be in doubt imo.
> 
> but please do what your are comfortable with, and kudos to you for standing up to select.


I appreciate what you say about non-Arabic solicitors. However I think the problem in Dubai is that a lawyer with perfect information will in many cases come up with exactly this advice, namely that the authorities' positions are inherently contradictory, hence it is difficult to say authoritatively how to behave to protect ones' interests.


----------



## True Blue

glover said:


> with all the new real estate laws and regulations for off-plan units, this should not be surprising. however, your role as claimant, with help from competent people, is to point out to whoever you deal with when you are protecting your rights is that you understand your rights here and you know the law, and specifically refer them to the relevant laws and regulations.
> 
> it is ridiculous to claim that if you default with cause (like in Select's situation), you will lose your money and apartment. nonsense. there is a clear procedure to follow in the land department when it comes to disputes like this, and in the end, you will always be given the option of settling the outstanding balance if the land department rules against you.
> 
> whoever tells you otherwise knows squat!! i am speaking again from personal experience.
> 
> in the addendum issue, you have article 247 of the UAE Civil law (the reciprocity of breach of contract) where if one party breaches a contract, the other party can do the same; *and Article 7(1) of the Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 which clearly forbids the developer from refusing to handover the completed unit of an off-plan apartment if the buyer has fulfilled all his obligations*.


What completely amazes me is that Select have collected all this money and are refusing to handover the asset which was purchased by the payment of the money. Now I may be missing something but surely Select can see that they can not get away with this imbalance by holding both the money AND the asset without getting trashed in a court. They may believe thay are in a position of strength holding all the cards but someone in authority will see how unfair they have acted and unbalanced the position of the parties is/are and may decide the return of the payment is what is best(especially if that is what is requested). Classic breach of contract where the original position is restored with interest and costs. This outcome would take Select down for sure!!

If this happened, the Banks or funders may want to sue the Directors for playing corporate Russian roulette.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

How many apartments out of the total are there that are not being handed over? What percentage have signed and what percentage are taking legal action so not to sign the addendum 1 and/or addendum 2?


----------



## shakka

True Blue said:


> What completely amazes me is that Select have collected all this money and are refusing to handover the asset which was purchased by the payment of the money. Now I may be missing something but surely Select can see that they can not get away with this imbalance by holding both the money AND the asset without getting trashed in a court. They may believe thay are in a position of strength holding all the cards but someone in authority will see how unfair they have acted and unbalanced the position of the parties is/are and may decide the return of the payment is what is best(especially if that is what is requested). Classic breach of contract where the original position is restored with interest and costs. This outcome would take Select down for sure!!
> 
> If this happened, the Banks or funders may want to sue the Directors for playing corporate Russian roulette.


At the moment people want the keys to the apartment but soon people will be asking for their money back. Too many investors to bully on this one as opposed to The Point. 
The comeback on Select hasnt even started yet. Its a prominent building in a prominent area of Dubai. The sh*t is going to hit the fan. Even the people who signed the addendums are now coming round to what has happened & are asking what they can do. 
Anyone checking Select out on google intending to purchase will soon know to stay clear. 
When reality bites then come to the table & meet only this time it will be a negotiation. ie How about we dont claim compensation & you give us the keys to what we agreed.


----------



## shakka

Dubai_Steve said:


> How many apartments out of the total are there that are not being handed over? What percentage have signed and what percentage are taking legal action so not to sign the addendum 1 and/or addendum 2?


Great question but why are you bothered Steve you must be happy you signed in fact so happy you dont understand why others havent signed.


----------



## Dubai bound

*meeting*

because without attending meeting, you have put Rahail in a stronger position, he now knows only 5 people are serious and have the balls to face up, he is thinking the rest are just sitting on the backs of others, he is not going to change addendums, we all know that, and its down to sign or take legal route, and how many have actually done that, about the same 5, lots of people keep saying legal action, but you know who you arer, the ones that have actually paid money and taken that route> and he knows it too....

talk is cheap, action speaks louder, but lots keep waiting for someone else to take plunge, why on earth are people still asking for someone to recommend a lawyer, why have they not done there own research andd started action, because again talk is cheap

if you are not going to meet and try negotiate there are 2 choices sign or take legal action, nothing more nothing less

all meetings are pointless but it is a starting point to move on from.

so now only 2 choices, and with a system that changes daily, its going to be hard & difficult


----------



## MANUTD

glover said:


> with all the new real estate laws and regulations for off-plan units, this should not be surprising. however, your role as claimant, with help from competent people, is to point out to whoever you deal with when you are protecting your rights is that you understand your rights here and you know the law, and specifically refer them to the relevant laws and regulations.
> 
> it is ridiculous to claim that if you default with cause (like in Select's situation), you will lose your money and apartment. nonsense. there is a clear procedure to follow in the land department when it comes to disputes like this, and in the end, you will always be given the option of settling the outstanding balance if the land department rules against you.
> 
> whoever tells you otherwise knows squat!! i am speaking again from personal experience.
> 
> in the addendum issue, you have article 247 of the UAE Civil law (the reciprocity of breach of contract) where if one party breaches a contract, the other party can do the same; and Article 7(1) of the Government of Dubai Executive Council Resolution No. 6 of 2010 which clearly forbids the developer from refusing to handover the completed unit of an off-plan apartment if the buyer has fulfilled all his obligations.


By far the best of advice on this thread -- its cost you nothing either -- enforcing it will take time ,intellect and perserverance -- (oh and being resident in Dubai might help :cheers:


----------



## Mr Koryzma

Dubai bound said:


> because without attending meeting, you have put Rahail in a stronger position, he now knows only 5 people are serious and have the balls to face up, he is thinking the rest are just sitting on the backs of others, he is not going to change addendums, we all know that, and its down to sign or take legal route, and how many have actually done that, about the same 5, lots of people keep saying legal action, but you know who you arer, the ones that have actually paid money and taken that route> and he knows it too....
> 
> talk is cheap, action speaks louder, but lots keep waiting for someone else to take plunge, why on earth are people still asking for someone to recommend a lawyer, why have they not done there own research andd started action, because again talk is cheap
> 
> if you are not going to meet and try negotiate there are 2 choices sign or take legal action, nothing more nothing less
> 
> all meetings are pointless but it is a starting point to move on from.
> 
> so now only 2 choices, and with a system that changes daily, its going to be hard & difficult


How do you know that only 5 people have decide to take legal action?


----------



## MANUTD

True Blue said:


> What completely amazes me is that Select have collected all this money and are refusing to handover the asset which was purchased by the payment of the money. Now I may be missing something but surely Select can see that they can not get away with this imbalance by holding both the money AND the asset without getting trashed in a court. They may believe thay are in a position of strength holding all the cards but someone in authority will see how unfair they have acted and unbalanced the position of the parties is/are and may decide the return of the payment is what is best(especially if that is what is requested). Classic breach of contract where the original position is restored with interest and costs. This outcome would take Select down for sure!!
> 
> If this happened, the Banks or funders may want to sue the Directors for playing corporate Russian roulette.


TB -- SG will have to concede -- FACT -- Glover is so right -- but it takes guts to move against them -- their greatest strength is fear from investors that they wont win -- my advice is to stand up for your rights 

ive got some issues at THE POINT which they put right and many not but i just had enough at TT and arent going be shafted once more -- it may be long fight but i dont really care now -just want justice


----------



## FWIW

MANUTD said:


> TB -- SG will have to concede -- FACT -- Glover is so right -- but it takes guts to move against them -- their greatest strength is fear from investors that they wont win -- my advice is to stand up for your rights
> 
> ive got some issues at THE POINT which they put right and many not but i just had enough at TT and arent going be shafted once more -- it may be long fight but i dont really care now -just want justice


Well said mr united! Fear, uncertainty and doubt are their only method left. Don't fall for sp/SG fud! Another strategy they tried is the EEE - Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. I think their meeting was only designed to embrace you and pay for their ticket home!

When people invested did they do it a group meeting? So why negotiate that way?

Good luck to the brave and the righteous!


----------



## micmonro1

Dubai bound said:


> Very unusual advise that from a Lawyer, dont attend and try nogotiate, when you could have even have taken a legal representive with you into the meeting, or even a journalist for that matter< which brings me to people that are being very misguiding stating that in fact they are lawyers on here and giving free advice, maybe they would care to mention if they are registered with the SRA in England and Wales because I am having trouble finding there names in our office 2010 copy, perhaps I am just missing something, and they will clarify there real qualifications and employment at this time!


You sound like a person who wasn't accepted in the group. However, I am very used to this in my profession and by many investors or 'purported' investors. 

Dubai Bound, if you want to have my professional identity verified, I invite you to show up in my court, equally you had better show up with your true ID, otherwise you may not be able to leave the court house.

I do not advocate what people must do as they have their own minds but clearly these comments are designed to tarnish my name. But the more people who attack me the more resilient and determined I become. 

I know many more people who are taking legal action, not just 5 as you claim so your information is inaccurate I'm afraid.
Lily


----------



## scoobudubai

micmonro1 said:


> You sound like a person who wasn't accepted in the group. However, I am very used to this in my profession and by many investors or 'purported' investors.
> 
> Dubai Bound, if you want to have my professional identity verified, I invite you to show up in my court, equally you had better show up with your true ID, otherwise you may not be able to leave the court house.
> 
> I do not advocate what people must do as they have their own minds but clearly these comments are designed to tarnish my name. But the more people who attack me the more resilient and determined I become.
> 
> I know many more people who are taking legal action, not just 5 as you claim so your information is inaccurate I'm afraid.
> Lily


I thought Micmonro & partner Lily were rejected from the group after accusing people of being actors from Select? I certainly would not send money to Micmonro & Lily or cohorts, certainly nobody should without confirming Micmonro's (Iraqi legal person who spoke much more than Lily at the London meeting where Lily was generally as quiet as a mouse) id and also Lily's id. :lol: Micmonro posts lots of 'laws' but seems to have no idea how they are actually applied in reality, in Dubai.

Problem we have is what to do next? I like glover's suggestion of stopping LPP payments but suspect that strategy might only work for Dubai Residents, if living abroad maybe they wouldn't care and would allow the property to be taken plus all monies invested. Essentially RERA / Land Dept. seems like a waste of space, or worse, corrupt.

Also we are trying to get in touch with our snagging company to check their availability for 2021.


----------



## Pro Bono

*Some free advice from someone with first hand experience.*

Ladies and Gentlemen, I am an investor in the Torch and was one of the original investors who reserved my unit way back in 2005. The reason I am posting is to provide some very important information to some people who are clearly at a loss for what to do.

I have been in a legal dispute with SG since 2009 when they originally claimed Force Majeure on the development despite sacking respected architects Khatib & Alami due to a disagreement on the way Select wanted to cut corners on both design and implementation process in order to bleed profit from the project. After a long drawn out process of Arbitration and then enforcement by the Courts we are now in a position to throw some light on why Select Group have been and are behaving the way they are.

Firstly Select Group are quite within their legal and moral rights to claim Force Majeure. It is up to the individual investor to either agree, or disagree with this claim. Sadly due to Dubai’s legal system being in its infancy this must be done through the arbitration system as is required by the contract. 

Due to the fact that there is no confidence in the legal system in Dubai (mainly due to incompetent lawyers), most law firms require upfront fees. So as an investor if you ever face a situation where you are in dispute with a Developer the odds are stacked very heavily against you if you ever wish to enforce a contractual obligation onto a Developer. This is where 50% of people decide not to pursue legal action and in doing so further strengthen the Developers hand. 

Our legal costs came to about £15k all funded up front by us back in 2009. The Torch contract has provision for dispute resolution as a single arbitrator, this is good news as it could have been up to three arbitrators which increase the costs of arbitration and in my lawyers experience makes a clear decision harder to come by. You should note that the arbitrators in Dubai are not usually locals. They are usually experienced individuals who have a legal, property, commercial background. Ours was actually a British lawyer who worked for a Dubai law firm (obviously not ours). The final cost of arbitration is dependent on the amount of your claim and the extent of damages sought by you. 

You can use an online calculator here to work it out here - http://www.diac.ae/idias/

If you win your case at arbitration, in your final claim you can claim back all of your lawyer’s costs, the arbitration costs, as well as any damages you are applying for in the case. The arbitration costs are supposed to be met 50/50 by you and the defendant. In our case Select Group refused to pay their share (which is the norm for developers), so we paid it for them. I’m sure the arbitrators look unfavourably on developers who do this as it is basically putting their fingers up to the system.

Once the arbitration ruling is made you will need to go to a court to get the decision sanctioned or enforced. This is not an appeal process of the arbitration ruling. It is simply a process that ensures the arbitrator followed the correct procedures (which your lawyer will ensure they do anyway if they are any good). A tip here is to make sure your lawyer will receive a percentage of the final compensation amount, most want 5%, we agreed 7.5% with ours in return for a lower initial fee.

The reason that no one hears about successful court/arbitration cases in Dubai is that every case is subject to a confidentiality order. It’s just the way the culture in the Middle East works. I think they think that if no one talks about bad things then they don’t happen. Like homosexuality is illegal so no one in the Middle East is gay. 

Anyway the point of me posting is just to say that we won our case against Select and the court upheld the arbitration ruling. Force Majeure was judged not to have applied at the Torch and Select are liable to pay penalties on the money we paid at the HSBC Middle East base rate until they give us possession and occupation of our unit.


----------



## True Blue

^^I bet your pm inbox has just exploded:lol:

Hence the reason Select are trying to bully everyone into signing the addendum, they are losing the legal battles so are trying to close the doors to future claims. Cowboys!!


----------



## True Blue

Pro Bono said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen, I am an investor in the Torch and was one of the original investors who reserved my unit way back in 2005. The reason I am posting is to provide some very important information to some people who are clearly at a loss for what to do.
> 
> I have been in a legal dispute with SG since 2009 when they originally claimed Force Majeure on the development despite sacking respected architects Khatib & Alami *due to a disagreement on the way Select wanted to cut corners on both design and implementation process in order to bleed profit from the project*. After a long drawn out process of Arbitration and then enforcement by the Courts we are now in a position to throw some light on why Select Group have been and are behaving the way they are.
> 
> Firstly Select Group are quite within their legal and moral rights to claim Force Majeure. It is up to the individual investor to either agree, or disagree with this claim. Sadly due to Dubai’s legal system being in its infancy this must be done through the arbitration system as is required by the contract.
> 
> Due to the fact that there is no confidence in the legal system in Dubai (mainly due to incompetent lawyers), most law firms require upfront fees. So as an investor if you ever face a situation where you are in dispute with a Developer the odds are stacked very heavily against you if you ever wish to enforce a contractual obligation onto a Developer. This is where 50% of people decide not to pursue legal action and in doing so further strengthen the Developers hand.
> 
> Our legal costs came to about £15k all funded up front by us back in 2009. The Torch contract has provision for dispute resolution as a single arbitrator, this is good news as it could have been up to three arbitrators which increase the costs of arbitration and in my lawyers experience makes a clear decision harder to come by. You should note that the arbitrators in Dubai are not usually locals. They are usually experienced individuals who have a legal, property, commercial background. Ours was actually a British lawyer who worked for a Dubai law firm (obviously not ours). The final cost of arbitration is dependent on the amount of your claim and the extent of damages sought by you.
> 
> You can use an online calculator here to work it out here - http://www.diac.ae/idias/
> 
> If you win your case at arbitration, in your final claim you can claim back all of your lawyer’s costs, the arbitration costs, as well as any damages you are applying for in the case. The arbitration costs are supposed to be met 50/50 by you and the defendant. In our case Select Group refused to pay their share (which is the norm for developers), so we paid it for them. I’m sure the arbitrators look unfavourably on developers who do this as it is basically putting their fingers up to the system.
> 
> Once the arbitration ruling is made you will need to go to a court to get the decision sanctioned or enforced. This is not an appeal process of the arbitration ruling. It is simply a process that ensures the arbitrator followed the correct procedures (which your lawyer will ensure they do anyway if they are any good). A tip here is to make sure your lawyer will receive a percentage of the final compensation amount, most want 5%, we agreed 7.5% with ours in return for a lower initial fee.
> 
> The reason that no one hears about successful court/arbitration cases in Dubai is that every case is subject to a confidentiality order. It’s just the way the culture in the Middle East works. I think they think that if no one talks about bad things then they don’t happen. Like homosexuality is illegal so no one in the Middle East is gay.
> 
> Anyway the point of me posting is just to say that we won our case against Select and the court upheld the arbitration ruling. Force Majeure was judged not to have applied at the Torch and Select are liable to pay penalties on the money we paid at the HSBC Middle East base rate until they give us possession and occupation of our unit.


You only need to look at the sales renders to see the MO of Select. Design something quite visually appealing, sell it, then redesign it much cheaper with no features or any special architectural detailing.

The amount of redesigning of BC post sale has been quite extaordinary!


----------



## Pro Bono

I think I can throw some light on why SG are starting to realise they have a big problem here with all you naughty non addendum signers. Let’s say there are 50 units not signing the addendum's. Select Group are legally liable to pay the service charges on 50 units as they are refusing to give full ownership/occupation of the units by withholding keys (illegal by the way). I think that they now realise that the FM claim does not stand up and in fact will do severe damage to their stance on the “full purchase price” must be paid to allow occupation line.

In order to trick gullible investors into thinking they must sign the addendum's and give more power to Select Group, they take the legal position that the full purchase price must be paid before possession and occupation can be permitted. This is a desperate attempt by an incompetent lawyer to manipulate a flawed contract to SG’s advantage which to a significant degree has worked on some people. Their concern is that if an investor has possession and occupation of a unit and at a later date defaults on the payments this could create a significant legal problem as SG would need to repossess a unit and the existing SPA and also Dubai civil law simply does not have the ability to effect.

So along comes the addendum in a half hearted attempt to correct a potential time bomb. What the thumb sucking lawyer did’t imagine though is the following scenario.

An investor disputes the ridiculous FM claim (which was borne out of greed and not wanting to pay late delivery compensation). If the FM claim is rejected then the developer can be asked to specifically perform clause 15.1 

*“If the Buyer has fulfilled all his obligations under the terms of this agreement and the Seller is unable to give possession and occupation of the property by ___date, and this remains the case for at least a period of six months thereafter then the Seller shall (unless the delay is due to Force Majeure in which case the provisions of clause 15.3 shall apply) pay penalties to the Buyer on all payments made by the Buyer towards the purchase price for the period from ___date until the date that possession and occupation is offered by the Seller.”*

There is no mention of “full purchase price” it is simply “all obligations” which is legally defined by the payment schedule listed in the SPA as “schedule 2”.

So if we assume for the sake of argument that this is now the case. SG are refusing handover of units and in doing so in breach of clause 15.1 of the SPA. They are liable for service charges on these units as they are unoccupied and I have been reliably informed that an investor who is being refused occupation of a unit for no real reason other than the developer wanting to strengthen their own legal position and generate more future income possibilities. An investor could make a successful claim for loss of income/rent using the RERA rental index as a benchmark for the relevant apartment type.

From an investors perspective this could be a win win situation as no service charges are due, yet income can be earned in lieu of the apartment being withheld. All paid by those nice people at SG. Thank you Rahail.

Sooner or later Select Group will start to realise that holding onto people’s apartments is simply going to cost them more money in the long run which I suspect is starting to sink in now. It was a fairly desperate measure and is going to backfire straight in their faces. The only reason for making people sign away their legal rights for recompense is if you are pretty certain a major problem exists and there is a need to deal with it. Out of the 500 apartments that they actually sold they have just been playing the numbers game and trying to reduce the size of the problem down to a more manageable level which I would imagine has now been done. I doubt there are more than 40-50 apartments who have not handed over due to the addendum's and so the next stage is to deal with these. Of these I would image maybe 20 will go to law. 

Select will lose every single case, they know it and they are only just starting to calculate the potential costs involved. 

Sadly the only way to make greedy immoral people sit up and listen, is to show them how vulnerable their wealth is.


----------



## shakka

Pro Bono said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen, I am an investor in the Torch and was one of the original investors who reserved my unit way back in 2005. The reason I am posting is to provide some very important information to some people who are clearly at a loss for what to do.
> 
> I have been in a legal dispute with SG since 2009 when they originally claimed Force Majeure on the development despite sacking respected architects Khatib & Alami due to a disagreement on the way Select wanted to cut corners on both design and implementation process in order to bleed profit from the project. After a long drawn out process of Arbitration and then enforcement by the Courts we are now in a position to throw some light on why Select Group have been and are behaving the way they are.
> 
> Firstly Select Group are quite within their legal and moral rights to claim Force Majeure. It is up to the individual investor to either agree, or disagree with this claim. Sadly due to Dubai’s legal system being in its infancy this must be done through the arbitration system as is required by the contract.
> 
> Due to the fact that there is no confidence in the legal system in Dubai (mainly due to incompetent lawyers), most law firms require upfront fees. So as an investor if you ever face a situation where you are in dispute with a Developer the odds are stacked very heavily against you if you ever wish to enforce a contractual obligation onto a Developer. This is where 50% of people decide not to pursue legal action and in doing so further strengthen the Developers hand.
> 
> Our legal costs came to about £15k all funded up front by us back in 2009. The Torch contract has provision for dispute resolution as a single arbitrator, this is good news as it could have been up to three arbitrators which increase the costs of arbitration and in my lawyers experience makes a clear decision harder to come by. You should note that the arbitrators in Dubai are not usually locals. They are usually experienced individuals who have a legal, property, commercial background. Ours was actually a British lawyer who worked for a Dubai law firm (obviously not ours). The final cost of arbitration is dependent on the amount of your claim and the extent of damages sought by you.
> 
> You can use an online calculator here to work it out here - http://www.diac.ae/idias/
> 
> If you win your case at arbitration, in your final claim you can claim back all of your lawyer’s costs, the arbitration costs, as well as any damages you are applying for in the case. The arbitration costs are supposed to be met 50/50 by you and the defendant. In our case Select Group refused to pay their share (which is the norm for developers), so we paid it for them. I’m sure the arbitrators look unfavourably on developers who do this as it is basically putting their fingers up to the system.
> 
> Once the arbitration ruling is made you will need to go to a court to get the decision sanctioned or enforced. This is not an appeal process of the arbitration ruling. It is simply a process that ensures the arbitrator followed the correct procedures (which your lawyer will ensure they do anyway if they are any good). A tip here is to make sure your lawyer will receive a percentage of the final compensation amount, most want 5%, we agreed 7.5% with ours in return for a lower initial fee.
> 
> The reason that no one hears about successful court/arbitration cases in Dubai is that every case is subject to a confidentiality order. It’s just the way the culture in the Middle East works. I think they think that if no one talks about bad things then they don’t happen. Like homosexuality is illegal so no one in the Middle East is gay.
> 
> Anyway the point of me posting is just to say that we won our case against Select and the court upheld the arbitration ruling. Force Majeure was judged not to have applied at the Torch and Select are liable to pay penalties on the money we paid at the HSBC Middle East base rate until they give us possession and occupation of our unit.


Made my day this has. Right Select I have £15k ready. Now do you want to sort this the most cost effective way or play silly buggers. 

How about a meaningful meeting where solutions can be suggested to avoid these addendums instead of dragging us to a sit down where you can make all the verbal promises like when you sold the apartments. Its time you respected your customers. 

Pro Bono Please PM your solicitors details if you dont mind. Well done by the way & thanks for sharing this.


----------



## CAJ

Pro Bono said:


> I think I can throw some light on why SG are starting to realise they have a big problem here with all you naughty non addendum signers. Let’s say there are 50 units not signing the addendum's. Select Group are legally liable to pay the service charges on 50 units as they are refusing to give full ownership/occupation of the units by withholding keys (illegal by the way). I think that they now realise that the FM claim does not stand up and in fact will do severe damage to their stance on the “full purchase price” must be paid to allow occupation line.
> 
> In order to trick gullible investors into thinking they must sign the addendum's and give more power to Select Group, they take the legal position that the full purchase price must be paid before possession and occupation can be permitted. This is a desperate attempt by an incompetent lawyer to manipulate a flawed contract to SG’s advantage which to a significant degree has worked on some people. Their concern is that if an investor has possession and occupation of a unit and at a later date defaults on the payments this could create a significant legal problem as SG would need to repossess a unit and the existing SPA and also Dubai civil law simply does not have the ability to effect.
> 
> So along comes the addendum in a half hearted attempt to correct a potential time bomb. What the thumb sucking lawyer did’t imagine though is the following scenario.
> 
> An investor disputes the ridiculous FM claim (which was borne out of greed and not wanting to pay late delivery compensation). If the FM claim is rejected then the developer can be asked to specifically perform clause 15.1
> 
> *“If the Buyer has fulfilled all his obligations under the terms of this agreement and the Seller is unable to give possession and occupation of the property by ___date, and this remains the case for at least a period of six months thereafter then the Seller shall (unless the delay is due to Force Majeure in which case the provisions of clause 15.3 shall apply) pay penalties to the Buyer on all payments made by the Buyer towards the purchase price for the period from ___date until the date that possession and occupation is offered by the Seller.”*
> 
> There is no mention of “full purchase price” it is simply “all obligations” which is legally defined by the payment schedule listed in the SPA as “schedule 2”.
> 
> So if we assume for the sake of argument that this is now the case. SG are refusing handover of units and in doing so in breach of clause 15.1 of the SPA. They are liable for service charges on these units as they are unoccupied and I have been reliably informed that an investor who is being refused occupation of a unit for no real reason other than the developer wanting to strengthen their own legal position and generate more future income possibilities. An investor could make a successful claim for loss of income/rent using the RERA rental index as a benchmark for the relevant apartment type.
> 
> From an investors perspective this could be a win win situation as no service charges are due, yet income can be earned in lieu of the apartment being withheld. All paid by those nice people at SG. Thank you Rahail.
> 
> Sooner or later Select Group will start to realise that holding onto people’s apartments is simply going to cost them more money in the long run which I suspect is starting to sink in now. It was a fairly desperate measure and is going to backfire straight in their faces. The only reason for making people sign away their legal rights for recompense is if you are pretty certain a major problem exists and there is a need to deal with it. Out of the 500 apartments that they actually sold they have just been playing the numbers game and trying to reduce the size of the problem down to a more manageable level which I would imagine has now been done. I doubt there are more than 40-50 apartments who have not handed over due to the addendum's and so the next stage is to deal with these. Of these I would image maybe 20 will go to law.
> 
> Select will lose every single case, they know it and they are only just starting to calculate the potential costs involved.
> 
> Sadly the only way to make greedy immoral people sit up and listen, is to show them how vulnerable their wealth is.


fantastic news some really useful information for which I am most grateful

I am informed from a fairly reliable source that the majority of the LPP purchasers have not signed the addendum and therefore this could equate to in excess of 150 purchasers or even more

For those who had doubt over taking SG to task, this must make your decision process alot easier

SG are now on their back foot, do not give in

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT


----------



## MANUTD

*WOW -- TWO POSTS --TWO GEMS*

Thanks PRO BONO -- think thats quite clear :cheers:


----------



## CAJ

CAJ said:


> fantastic news some really useful information for which I am most grateful
> 
> I am informed from a fairly reliable source that the majority of the LPP purchasers have not signed the addendum and therefore this could equate to in excess of 150 purchasers or even more
> 
> For those who had doubt over taking SG to task, this must make your decision process alot easier
> 
> SG are now on their back foot, do not give in
> 
> FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT


Lets see if this post disappears. Please copy it just in case


----------



## scoobudubai

CAJ said:


> Lets see if this post disappears. Please copy it just in case


I'm in awe at these recent postings, in fact all of us. It's amazing.
Bit worried if so many have not signed...if they go 'bust' (but we have a plan for that not yet fully formulated).
Has anyone lost against these DRSs?
Has anyone verified with RERA what Rahail Aslam claimed in the media?

Also worried by fact that so few lights are on...


----------



## gerald.d

Dubai_Steve said:


> I agree there are a lot of nutters on this particular thread, though can't blame the mental health after years of financial drain and torture from Select.
> 
> TB and I will endeavour to keep your son further entertained with the arse end (sorry chic end) vs tallest block debate :lol:
> 
> ps. The forum also contains a lot of 'my renovation/decoration is better than your renovation/decoration'
> 
> Lots of Love and Kisses
> 
> Steve from Select xxx


I see what you just did there boss.


----------



## True Blue

propertymagnet said:


> Sadly forums are a breeding ground for paranoia and conspiracy theories, especially this forum , my 18 son and his friends use SCC as a source of entertainment sometimes, when they are playing poker and they need a good laugh...The world has gone crazy. Forums should be an exchange of information that others can benefit from. However all this forum is ,is a group of people constantly trying to convince themselves and other's they have bought in the best tower, and its full of the 'my tower is better than your tower brigade', and my god is it pathetic.All fuelled mostly by men I might add..
> th


Talk about miss spent youth and bad parenting. How bad can a game of poker be when you have to resort to SSC for a laugh? 


WHAT ARE YOU BOYS LOOKING AT ON THE INTERNET WITH ALL THAT LAUGHING AND GIGGLING?

EH! SKYSCRAPER CITY MUM. TRUE BLUE IS TEASING THOSE SELECT VICTIMS AGAIN!

OH.....OK THEN....SO LONG AS IT ISN'T PORN THEN.

NO MUM......BUT THE ROOF OF PRINCESS TOWER DOES LOOK A BIT LIKE A HELMET!

BTW, The Chic end is defo better than the tallest block, but they are 18yo, they already knew that. 

I don't need to own in the tallest residential tower in the world, I'm happy with the phallus I already own


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^

Too bad your phallus collapsed now though TB 



True Blue said:


> ^^Yeah! the whole thing, without any warning. Just detached its self, bounced of the white window spine feature and launched its self onto 2 villa roofs below.


----------



## True Blue

Anyone know when the Dubai Marina version of Monopoly is coming out?

I hear if you buy the BC plots you won't be able to put a hotel on it:lol:

If you buy Silverene, you need to buy the Electricity Company before you can get a mortgage.


----------



## MANUTD

True Blue said:


> Anyone know when the Dubai Marina version of Monopoly is coming out?
> 
> I hear if you buy the BC plots you won't be able to put a hotel on it:lol:
> 
> If you buy Silverene, you need to buy the Electricity Company before you can get a mortgage.


OMG you dont know what you started now PM's sons can make all sorts of jokes regarding monopoly --might be more educational than POKER :lol::lol:


----------



## MANUTD

Dubai_Steve said:


> I agree there are a lot of nutters on this particular thread, though can't blame the mental health after years of financial drain and torture from Select.
> 
> TB and I will endeavour to keep your son further entertained with the arse end (sorry chic end) vs tallest block debate :lol:
> 
> ps. The forum also contains a lot of 'my renovation/decoration is better than your renovation/decoration'
> 
> Lots of Love and Kisses
> 
> Steve from Select xxx


Very original :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## MANUTD

propertymagnet said:


> Sadly forums are a breeding ground for paranoia and conspiracy theories, especially this forum , my 18 son and his friends use SCC as a source of entertainment sometimes, when they are playing poker and they need a good laugh...The world has gone crazy. Forums should be an exchange of information that others can benefit from. However all this forum is ,is a group of people constantly trying to convince themselves and other's they have bought in the best tower, and its full of the 'my tower is better than your tower brigade', and my god is it pathetic.All fuelled mostly by men I might add..
> th


I am male i'm afraid PM and i must admit a bit addicted to SSC - BUT have to say I found out a lot surfing SSC and found a few will be life long friends - a few nutters too :lol::lol: 
-- just need to be able to decide who is a nutter or not :lol::lol: 
-- Thats the tricky bit :cheers:


----------



## propertymagnet

too much information


----------



## propertymagnet

True Blue said:


> Talk about miss spent youth and bad parenting. How bad can a game of poker be when you have to resort to SSC for a laugh?
> 
> 
> WHAT ARE YOU BOYS LOOKING AT ON THE INTERNET WITH ALL THAT LAUGHING AND GIGGLING?
> 
> EH! SKYSCRAPER CITY MUM. TRUE BLUE IS TEASING THOSE SELECT VICTIMS AGAIN!
> 
> OH.....OK THEN....SO LONG AS IT ISN'T PORN THEN.
> 
> NO MUM......BUT THE ROOF OF PRINCESS TOWER DOES LOOK A BIT LIKE A HELMET!
> 
> BTW, The Chic end is defo better than the tallest block, but they are 18yo, they already knew that.
> 
> I don't need to own in the tallest residential tower in the world, I'm happy with the phallus I already own


My support for you in the reply to 'Dubai Steve's post somehow doesn't seem quite 'fitting' now.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Have you taken the TB course on how to conduct forum advertising without being caught. 

I agree with all you say PM (apart from your first sentence).

I had a strange dream about you last night, you were trying to convert some spare room close to the kitchen in my apartment into a pantry, very wierd :lol:


----------



## True Blue

propertymagnet said:


> My support for you in the reply to 'Dubai Steve's post somehow doesn't seem quite 'fitting' now.


Just trying to keep the kids amused.

Thanks for the "first sentence". I like the comment "and much more besides" that leaves a lot to the imagination Now Steve will be having some more wierd dreams tonight:lol:


----------



## propertymagnet

True Blue said:


> Just trying to keep the kids amused.
> 
> Thanks for the "first sentence". I like the comment "and much more besides" that leaves a lot to the imagination Now Steve will be having some more wierd dreams tonight:lol:




lol!.....................I feel extremely sorry for anyone that would want to dream about me..............I think nightmare would be more appropiate....


----------



## MANUTD

propertymagnet said:


> As an example, for the two apartments that I have recently refurbished, furnished and manage, the first being in March of this year, the gross rental achieved, to date, is £27364.00 for 26 weeks booked so far this tax year. The second apartment, furnished in May, has, to date, a gross rental of £15802.00 for 16 weeks, so far this calender tax year. It takes a lot of hard work on my behalf and belief from the landlords that I am able to convert enquiries to short term bookings. Luckily I have been able to provide both the hard work and instil belief into the landlord as I thoroughly enjoy working in this industry and gaining rentals is very satisfying. I therefore continue to believe the investment applied in the beginning will result in a higher turnover of rentals, a theory I was able to put into practice.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> GP is great what the NET ?


----------



## propertymagnet

whoops!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ PM, can you remind us what approx. investment total would be expected for year 1 for a 2 bed in the Torch to refurb and furnish to your required high standards now that you have seen the end product etc.?


----------



## propertymagnet

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ PM, can you remind us what approx. investment total would be expected for year 1 for a 2 bed in the Torch to refurb and furnish to your required high standards now that you have seen the end product etc.?


You already have this information Steve in a private message I sent you a long time ago. ?


----------



## Sheltie

Propertymagnet, do you manage the property, as in cleaning and looking after it. I don't live in Dubai so I got a one year long term lease till I can find a suitable management company to do short term rentals.


----------



## propertymagnet

Sheltie said:


> Propertymagnet, do you manage the property, as in cleaning and looking after it. I don't live in Dubai so I got a one year long term lease till I can find a suitable management company to do short term rentals.


Yes we do, we are a one stop shop  thanks for your interest My name is Karen BTW


----------



## thetorch

MANUTD said:


> propertymagnet said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an example, for the two apartments that I have recently refurbished, furnished and manage, the first being in March of this year, the gross rental achieved, to date, is £27364.00 for 26 weeks booked so far this tax year. The second apartment, furnished in May, has, to date, a gross rental of £15802.00 for 16 weeks, so far this calender tax year. It takes a lot of hard work on my behalf and belief from the landlords that I am able to convert enquiries to short term bookings. Luckily I have been able to provide both the hard work and instil belief into the landlord as I thoroughly enjoy working in this industry and gaining rentals is very satisfying. I therefore continue to believe the investment applied in the beginning will result in a higher turnover of rentals, a theory I was able to put into practice.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> GP is great what the NET ?
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, so let's see.
> 
> 1) I don't have to buy any furnishings (or replace them when damaged).
> 
> 2) I don't have to do any work to get an unfurnished 2 bed rented for a year in advance.
> 
> 3) and I get 95,000AED paid in advance.
> 
> 4) My ongoing damage costs are minimal on unfurnished.
> 
> I would call the furnished short term letting brigade busy fools, who, at the wrong times of the year, will struggle to get takers.
> 
> OK, I have to pay out same as the short term guys (agencies, rip off SP, etc), but at least I can forget about it now and I have a full year's revenue in the bank, earning interest (OK, being taken off my borrowing costs!).
> 
> The Torch
Click to expand...


----------



## propertymagnet

thetorch said:


> MANUTD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, so let's see.
> 
> 1) I don't have to buy any furnishings (or replace them when damaged).
> 
> 2) I don't have to do any work to get an unfurnished 2 bed rented for a year in advance.
> 
> 3) and I get 95,000AED paid in advance.
> 
> 4) My ongoing damage costs are minimal on unfurnished.
> 
> I would call the furnished short term letting brigade busy fools, who, at the wrong times of the year, will struggle to get takers.
> 
> OK, I have to pay out same as the short term guys (agencies, rip off SP, etc), but at least I can forget about it now and I have a full year's revenue in the bank, earning interest (OK, being taken off my borrowing costs!).
> 
> The Torch
Click to expand...


----------



## BigAsh

The one who follows the crowd, will usually get no further than the crowd. The one who walks alone is likely to discover new places no one has ever been before.

Creativity in living is not without its attendant difficulties, for peculiarity breeds contempt. And the unfortunate thing about being ahead of your time is that when people finally realize you were right, they'll say it was obvious all along.

You have two choices in life: you can dissolve into the mainstream, or you can be distinct. To be distinct, you must be different. To be different, you must strive to be what no one else but you can be...


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ A quote from Alan Ashley-Pitt


----------



## HappyLarry

BigAsh said:


> The one who follows the crowd, will usually get no further than the crowd. The one who walks alone is likely to discover new places no one has ever been before.
> 
> Creativity in living is not without its attendant difficulties, for peculiarity breeds contempt. And the unfortunate thing about being ahead of your time is that when people finally realize you were right, they'll say it was obvious all along.
> 
> You have two choices in life: you can dissolve into the mainstream, or you can be distinct. To be distinct, you must be different. To be different, you must strive to be what no one else but you can be...


Admirable first post.


----------



## SGrCRAP

thetorch said:


> MANUTD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, so let's see.
> 
> 1) I don't have to buy any furnishings (or replace them when damaged).
> 
> 2) I don't have to do any work to get an unfurnished 2 bed rented for a year in advance.
> 
> 3) and I get 95,000AED paid in advance.
> 
> 4) My ongoing damage costs are minimal on unfurnished.
> 
> I would call the furnished short term letting brigade busy fools, who, at the wrong times of the year, will struggle to get takers.
> 
> OK, I have to pay out same as the short term guys (agencies, rip off SP, etc), but at least I can forget about it now and I have a full year's revenue in the bank, earning interest (OK, being taken off my borrowing costs!).
> 
> The Torch
> 
> 
> 
> Man U - spot on analysis -
> 
> This thread seems to have become an advertising medium for short term rental providers - another Dubai variant of real estate shark!
> 
> I did the numbers of short terms rentals a while back and there's absolutely no point in using a third party as it kills the margin advantage stone dead. If you factor in voids, costs for cable/internet, DEWA, wear and tear, rip off management fee you're much better off doing annual lets on a vanilla unfurnished unit.
> 
> Is Property Magnet using these forums to push their services? - isn't this against forum rules?
Click to expand...


----------



## MANUTD

SGrCRAP said:


> thetorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man U - spot on analysis -
> 
> This thread seems to have become an advertising medium for short term rental providers - another Dubai variant of real estate shark!
> 
> I did the numbers of short terms rentals a while back and there's absolutely no point in using a third party as it kills the margin advantage stone dead. If you factor in voids, costs for cable/internet, DEWA, wear and tear, rip off management fee you're much better off doing annual lets on a vanilla unfurnished unit.
> 
> Is Property Magnet using these forums to push their services? - isn't this against forum rules?
> 
> 
> 
> crspn --before i incur wrath of Karen :lol:- i didn't post that and dont really have a view on that -- more concerned about getting my money back out of SG :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## propertymagnet

SGrCRAP said:


> thetorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man U - spot on analysis -
> 
> This thread seems to have become an advertising medium for short term rental providers - another Dubai variant of real estate shark!
> 
> I did the numbers of short terms rentals a while back and there's absolutely no point in using a third party as it kills the margin advantage stone dead. If you factor in voids, costs for cable/internet, DEWA, wear and tear, rip off management fee you're much better off doing annual lets on a vanilla unfurnished unit.
> 
> Is Property Magnet using these forums to push their services? - isn't this against forum rules?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is explaining to the forum members that STRs can work deemed as pushing my services? Have I put my personal name, address, website and telephone number on this forum of recent?
> 
> My figures differ greatly to yours as STR works for myself , and others, but that is due to the amount of work and the quality of the furnishings I demand and are available for my guests. If you are unable to procure a full calendar then your figures certainly don't equate to those I am able to acquire. It's all relative to the amount of effort the owner is willing to put into their investment. I didn't purchase my apartment with the intention of sitting back and hoping the STR market would flood to the door, and if it didn't then take the LTR option. I, and possibly most owners, wanted more than that. It takes massive hard work but any Dubai owner could do the same. Isn't that what forum's are about, offering ideas for owners to increase their rental potential?
> 
> If, as it you seem to indicate by your post, you prefer LTR then my suggestions shouldn't be hitting a sore spot with you as you can simply disregard them. Viewing anything/anybody, without trial and error, as a real estate shark or rip off agent might not be a wise move in the current economy where we all need to possibly work that bit harder.
Click to expand...


----------



## shakka

SGrCRAP said:


> thetorch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man U - spot on analysis -
> 
> This thread seems to have become an advertising medium for short term rental providers - another Dubai variant of real estate shark!
> 
> I did the numbers of short terms rentals a while back and there's absolutely no point in using a third party as it kills the margin advantage stone dead. If you factor in voids, costs for cable/internet, DEWA, wear and tear, rip off management fee you're much better off doing annual lets on a vanilla unfurnished unit.
> 
> Is Property Magnet using these forums to push their services? - isn't this against forum rules?
> 
> 
> 
> SGrCrap- Dont you think we need all the help so we can get some return on what is for me looking like a poor investment now. We can decide if we wish to contact & ask for Property Magnet services or not.
> As per your earlier (spot on) post we should keep this thread to exposing Select for what they are
Click to expand...


----------



## kuttika

Hi All, I was in land department today. I went into handover my protest letter re. the delays and no information etc. The person just attached some papers to my letter and said that If I signed the addendem I could get handover. The person probably mistook me for a Torch investor without even looking at my letter. I was told to continue paying and go to court if I wanted the apartment. Should I understand that Select is going to use the land department to get us all to sign the addendums. So even if we all are planning to go to land department with regard to complaints re. the addendum, forget it, they are going to ask us to sign as well. I was also told that there is nothing with the letter, it is just a formality, we really must be coming across as jokers to them for having invested in this development.......................


----------



## glover

*Damac buyer wins payout in court drama*

_a legal precedent. owners can sue and win even if the property is under construction and the completion date has NOT passed, if they can prove by an expert opinion, that the property cannot be completed by the completion date._

----------------------------------------
By Benjamin Roberts, Monday, 29 August 2011 7:49 AM

Lawyers representing an investor in a Damac Properties commercial project said their client has won the first of what is hoped to be many successful compensation claims against the company in a landmark case in property litigation.

The Dubai developer in July returned money plus costs to an investor that had bought seven units in the mixed use Executive Bay project in Business Bay, according to law firm The Legal Group, which secured the payout in Dubai’s Court of Appeal.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/damac-buyer-wins-payout-in-court-drama-417724.html


----------



## mackie1964

What is the latest here guys? I have been away and will be for another few weeks with business and did not have a chance yet to catch up with this Torch stuff! I obviously have not signed anything and not willing to sign. I had the usual threatening letters from Select and I just forwarded them to our new legal man!

Any chance someone can summarize the latest in a few lines without me having to read all of those pages?

Cheers :cheers:


----------



## t054

mackie1964 said:


> What is the latest here guys? I have been away and will be for another few weeks with business and did not have a chance yet to catch up with this Torch stuff! I obviously have not signed anything and not willing to sign. I had the usual threatening letters from Select and I just forwarded them to our new legal man!
> 
> Any chance someone can summarize the latest in a few lines without me having to read all of those pages?
> 
> Cheers :cheers:


Hi there only new to this post and i thought a cut out from an artical i read may be of interest just some basic info i found. 

The Dubai Court’s practice requiring that a separate lawsuit is filed for every contract at issue is a prohibitively expensive prac-tice. Every suit requires a payment to the Court of 7.5% of the contact value or a maximum of Dh. 30,000.00. In most cases, it is Dh 30,000. 

http://lyhplaw.com/newsletters/newsletter2.pdf


----------



## shakka

t054 said:


> Hi there only new to this post and i thought a cut out from an artical i read may be of interest just some basic info i found.
> 
> The Dubai Court’s practice requiring that a separate lawsuit is filed for every contract at issue is a prohibitively expensive prac-tice. Every suit requires a payment to the Court of 7.5% of the contact value or a maximum of Dh. 30,000.00. In most cases, it is Dh 30,000.
> 
> http://lyhplaw.com/newsletters/newsletter2.pdf


Is that all it is thats a lot better than I thought. This is very encouraging news thanks t054. Great first post Surprised its taken you this long to join this forum.


----------



## slick2day

Check this out folks...Interesting stuff

Dear readers,

We thank you for your questions. In light of the great number of questions – mostly regarding Purchasers’ possibility to terminate Sale and Purchase Agreements (“SPAs”) when Developers (“Seller”) fail to fulfill their contractual obligations –, we cover below the largest possible number of inquiries by presenting an introductory post which we hope sets the parameters of current real estate disputes in Dubai.

The issue covered – from a general standpoint – is can Purchasers of real estate property terminate SPAs when the Seller fails to deliver a property on the agreed date?

Purchasers of real estate property in the United Arab Emirates can seek the termination of a Sale and Purchase Agreements and a full refund of the monies advanced toward the purchase of the Properties based on the provisions of the United Arab Emirates (hereinafter referred to as “UAE”) civil law.

Article 272 of Federal Law No. 5 of 1985 (hereinafter referred to as the “Civil Code”) allows parties to a contract to seek its termination if the counterparty does not fulfill its contractual obligations.

Would a given contract be cancelled in furtherance of the above article, Article 274 establishes the effects of such termination. In this regard, it indicates that the parties shall be restored to the position they were prior to the conclusion of the contract, and would this not be possible, compensation shall be ordered.

Undoubtedly, increasing court decisions are finding in favor of Purchasers when these seek legal recourse in light of the general inability of Developers to fulfill their obligations pursuant to the contracts concluded and hence are failing to deliver the properties on the contractually agreed dates.

Obviously, in order to obtain an accurate assessment of such viable legal option, it is crucial to establish that the Developers have failed to act as contractually agreed and that the Purchasers have fulfilled according to theirs. In addition, the defaulting party must not be able to excuse its non-compliance with the agreement of the parties.

Our analysis in this regard follows below.

Buyers Compliance with Contractual Obligations

The Buyers must have fully complied with their contractual obligations – i.e. payment terms –, and must be in possession of evidences supporting the said compliance.

Sellers’ Inability to meet the Anticipated Completion Dates

In general, SPAs include an Anticipated Completion Date (hereinafter referred to as “ACD”) by which they commit to deliver possession of the particular property. It is common that SPAs additionally grant the Seller the possibility to unilaterally extend the ACD by a period of 6 to 12 months.
It is crucial to verify that this period has expired. Otherwise the corresponding claim could be rejected on prematurity grounds.
Contractual Remedy afforded to the Purchasers

A large number of SPAs allow Purchasers to terminate the SPAs when the Seller fails to deliver the Property on the agreed date.

A smaller percentage of SPAs affords no remedy or provide only interest – i.e. a percentage interest per month upon the expiration of the ACD – as contractual remedy afforded to the Purchasers in case of default by the Seller. Accordingly, it can be understood that the Purchasers shall not be entitled to terminate the SPAs or merely be entitled to such interest up to the date of actual delivery.

Despite the above, numerous national court and arbitral tribunal decisions have applied by default general provisions of the Civil Code – i.e. Articles 272 and 274 above – and have consequently allowed Purchasers to terminate SPAs which had been left with an indeterminate completion date.

In turn it is important to note that court and arbitration decisions have rejected to apply the interest agreed by the parties in similar SPAs and usually apply the default provisions with regards to the interest granted to the Purchasers. Currently Dubai courts and Arbitral Tribunal decisions are applying interest in the amount of 9%.

In addition, decisions are not granting specific performance – save in the scenario of the Project being 100% completed at the time the competent authority is prepared to render a final decision –, rather courts and arbitral tribunals are rendering compensation comprising return of monies advanced plus interest, court costs and legal fees.

Based on the above and provided the intention of the Purchaser is to obtain the return of the amounts advanced towards the purchase of the particular property, we advise to verify that the project will not be completed at the time a decision is likely to be rendered to avoid a potential specific performance decision as opposed to one of compensation.

Force Majeure

The only afforded remedy available to the Seller when it has failed to comply with its contractual obligations would be the applicability of force majeure.

It order to assess the viability of its application, one must refer to the terms of each particular SPA which specifically defines the contours of such available defense.

It is important to note that the UAE legal system has always followed the civil law doctrine rooted in the French civil code of 1804. The interpretation which has been given to force majeure contentions has regularly been one of “unforeseen occurrence”. Accordingly, the circumstances which gave rise to its proper application must have been difficult to imagine for the breaching party at the time of executing the SPA. We do note that financial difficulties – even in a time of crisis! –, and the breach of a parallel contract by a third party – i.e. Master Developer – do not qualify as force majeure.

Pursuant to the foregoing, a Purchaser who has complied with the SPA but has not received possession of the property by the completion date agreed in the SPA can seek its termination in front of the competent authority – national courts or arbitration – and request the refund of the amounts advanced towards its purchase.

***


----------



## SGrCRAP

shakka said:


> SGrCRAP said:
> 
> 
> 
> SGrCrap- Dont you think we need all the help so we can get some return on what is for me looking like a poor investment now. We can decide if we wish to contact & ask for Property Magnet services or not.
> As per your earlier (spot on) post we should keep this thread to exposing Select for what they are
> 
> 
> 
> Fair does. People have to make their own choices. Just don't like people advertising their services on forums and also thought the figs were over optimistic as there was no consideration for voids, costs, agro factor etc. Won't be engaging in debate with Karen - Waste of time.
> 
> Back to topic. This is the man who ripped us all off. Always good to put a face to a name!
Click to expand...


----------



## Why Dubai

Has anyone who has not signed had any joy with courts yet ?


----------



## shakka

SGrCRAP said:


> shakka said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair does. People have to make their own choices. Just don't like people advertising their services on forums and also thought the figs were over optimistic as there was no consideration for voids, costs, agro factor etc. Won't be engaging in debate with Karen - Waste of time.
> 
> Back to topic. This is the man who ripped us all off. Always good to put a face to a name!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aint heard from you thought you had given up SGrCRAP.
> Yep thats the guy to aim at
Click to expand...


----------



## Imre

Penthouse floors looks great!

22/September/2011

*Torch penthouse floor*



















*The Torch fully furnished penthouse photos and the view*










Album:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imresolt/sets/72157627728145198/

or

https://picasaweb.google.com/110829...hotosAndTheViewDubaiMarinaUAE22September2011#


----------



## MANUTD

IMRE -- youre cleary doing a job -- fair enough -- but this does really rub salt into the wounds of investors who havent been delivered the quality they were promised in other apartments AND are being asked to sign addendums which are not legal - just reinforces my distrust for SELECT -- good luck with your sales though everyone is entitled to make a living I guess


----------



## Why Dubai

Anyone heard from Lily recently, how is she getting on with the courts ??


----------



## Impy

*Bloomberg info*

Interesting ?

Bloomberg 
BusinessWeek 
Business Exchange 




Select Group Ltd.
October 19, 2011 2:36 PM ET
Real Estate Management and Development
SnapshotPeople 
Company Overview
Select Group Ltd. engages in real estate investment and development activities in Dubai. It develops residential towers, mixed use developments, private residences, and apartments. The company also invests in real estate developments of other developers. In addition, it involves in hospitality and industry fields. Select Group Ltd. company was founded in 2002 and is based in Dubai, the United Arab Emirates.

Emaar Business Park

Building 4, 2nd Floor, Office 205

Sheikh Zayed Road

Dubai, 

United Arab Emirates

Founded in 2002

Phone: 

971 4 368 3355


Fax: 

971 4 368 3344


www.select-group.ae

Key Executives
Mr. Rahail Aslam 
Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer 

Mr. Noor Khan 
Director of Finance and Investments 

Mr. Colin Wright 
Chief Operating Officer 

Mr. Mark Stott 
Managing Director of Select Property Group 

Ms. Helen White 
Marketing Director of Select Property Group 
Compensation as of Fiscal Year 2011.


----------



## SGrCRAP

Pro Bono said:


> The last time I posted on this forum it was to inform Torch investors that the legal option was a valid course of action to consider as I have personally been successful in arbitration through the DIAC against the Developer and I have also had an award made and now enforced by the execution court. It is clear to me that certain people are purposefully posting information that is clearly intent on serving the Developers best interests.
> 
> I will soon be posting some information that I have recently become party to, which I feel all investors will benefit from in terms of dealing with the handover of Botanica and Bay Central.
> 
> *HERE ARE THE FACTS.*
> 
> If you have a legally binding contract (SPA) then both sides are duty bound to perform it in full.
> If one party fails to perform an obligation in the contract then they are contractually obliged to remedy the breach.
> If a remedy to the breach is not possible then the contract is cancelled and both sides are returned to their original (pre contract) state. This will also include interest on any payments made from the outset. The normal commercial interest rate that the DIAC will apply to these payments is 9%, regardless of what is specified in the SPA.
> 
> In order to succeed in Dubai you will need to pay a lawyer their working fees upfront (about £15k).
> These fees will be refunded by the respondent when you win the award.
> You will need to pay all DIAC fees (about £10k - £15k depending on the full claim amount).
> The process of arbitration in Dubai takes about 9-12 months (Developer kicking and screaming all the way).
> Once you have an arbitration judgement there is NO RIGHT to appeal.
> Once you have an award judgement from the DIAC you need to take this to a court to have it enforced, (this is purely to check that procedural regularity has been followed by the DIAC).
> If the Developer fails to pay the award the execution court then serves 15 days on the respondent to pay in full, failure to pay will be followed by an order to attach the debtor’s assets, bank accounts and any other property including real estate property that can be attached by the courts to satisfy the value of the adjudged amount. This is a key point which I will discuss in length soon.
> 
> This whole process will take 12-18 months and providing you can prove clear physical breaches of your SPA it will have a definite outcome with all costs awarded in your favor.
> 
> If you claim breaches to be poor quality bathroom fittings and badly fitted kitchen units then you are on dodgy ground.
> 
> If you claim breaches that can be physically proved then your chances of success are very strong indeed, instances such as unit size failings, Force Majeure, late delivery, handover conditional of signing addendums etc, are all easily provable and impossible to defend.


Very interesting - would an independent fire survey delivered by professional fire engineers which stated the entire fire control system (throughout the building) did not meet current standards be sufficient for a Dubai court to rule in favour of the owners as a collective?


----------



## mackie1964

slowhand99 said:


> The developer is Bay Central Developments Limited which is likely to be a separate company. It could be part of a group although it is likely to be standalone. If it is part of a group, in the UK there is no obligation on the parent company to support a subsidiary.
> 
> I am not sure how you have quantified "plenty of assets" in your trailing statement given above. Given the quoted timescales involved in establishing a claim I wouldn't bet that Bay Central Developments Limited will have many assets in 18 months time except for unsold properties. By the way there is nothing in principal to stop a company taking out development profits along the way to completion. It is not difficult for a FD who wants to to justify doing this on the grounds they "believe" the project is on track to make a profit.
> 
> Clearly the developer deserves being sued for the very cavalier way we have been treated. The sole reason my view has been not to sue the developer is the uncertainty of finally getting a return from the process.
> 
> Congratulations to Probono for taking the plunge all that time ago and thank you for providing all the info on the process. By the sounds of it a very good decision. However doing it now and waiting 12 to 18 months especially if many others try? Clearly everybody will make there own decision. A "bird in the hand" springs to mind.


What a Clown :bash::bash:


----------



## Morrismarina

slowhand99 said:


> The developer is Bay Central Developments Limited which is likely to be a separate company. It could be part of a group although it is likely to be standalone. If it is part of a group, *in the UK there is no obligation on the parent company to support a subsidiary. *
> 
> I am not sure how you have quantified "plenty of assets" in your trailing statement given above. Given the quoted timescales involved in establishing a claim I wouldn't bet that Bay Central Developments Limited will have many assets in 18 months time except for unsold properties. *By the way there is nothing in principal to stop a company taking out development profits along the way to completion.* It is not difficult for a FD who wants to to justify doing this on the grounds they "believe" the project is on track to make a profit.
> 
> *Clearly the developer deserves being sued for the very cavalier way we have been treated.* The sole reason my view has been not to sue the developer is the uncertainty of finally getting a return from the process.
> 
> *Congratulations to Probono for taking the plunge all that time ago and thank you for providing all the info on the process. By the sounds of it a very good decision. *However doing it now and waiting 12 to 18 months especially if many others try? Clearly everybody will make there own decision. A "bird in the hand" springs to mind.


If some of you actually take the time to read this properly instead of dismissing Slowhand's posts out of hand all the time with rude and unhelpful comments, you'll find the points in red are actually correct. 

However it should in theory be difficult for a developer to simply take out funds held in escrow as their profit, but hey this is Dubai and the Wild West !!


----------



## slowhand99

Morrismarina said:


> If some of you actually take the time to read this properly instead of dismissing Slowhand's posts out of hand all the time with rude and unhelpful comments, you'll find the points in red are actually correct.
> 
> However it should in theory be difficult for a developer to simply take out funds held in escrow as their profit, but hey this is Dubai and the Wild West !!


many of the people who post here are wannabee bigshots, low level sales people who understand nothing, unemployed kerb layers, never quote facts, trolls, the uneducated and can't read who have bought nothing, sold nothing but have uninformed opinions about anything. They will be spewing out the same bullshit next year without realising they are doing it. Still they are something to smile at from time to time.


----------



## slowhand99

mackie1964 said:


> What a Clown :bash::bash:


someone has seen you and says your avatar is a close likeness for you. This explains everything.


----------



## slowhand99

MANUTD said:


> Did YOU really write that ?


It is more than you can do. If you read it, it has some useful and relevant points. Lets have some practical relevant facts from you that a disappointed investor can use.

Just slagging off the developer is not helpful. There isn't one investor who isn't very pissed off with the developer. You are just stating the obvious as TB and others do. 

probono's post is very interesting and useful if true. Also Mistermark's post about doubting whether you can get legal redress is also very interesting and relevant. Man U pay attention and try harder to contribute something useful


----------



## True Blue

^^If I am stating the obvious, why is it always contrary to your points of view?

You pedal personal insults because you are a loser who has never contributed anything worthwhile to this forum. You will continue to be a loser as you can not see the error of your ways and think you have made good choices. Let me tell you that you are WRONG and I am about to demonstate it with facts;



> "By the way there is nothing in principal to stop a company taking out development profits along the way to completion"


WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! Your little torch barer has backed you up on this point because clearly he has never run a development business either. Answer me this, Mr Big Shot with a big mouth. How can you extract profit when you have not discharged your liabilities??? How can you extract profit when the funds are the investors funds and *none of the money belongs to the developer???* Absolute fucking criminal, unethical and I would cut their balls off if they stole my money before delivering my part of the deal.

You clearly have a high opinion of yourself, but to everyone with business sense, you are a poisoned prick who obviously lives on planet "you". Or you are the snake in the grass who is still going out of his way to cover Select's back by pedalling trash. I suggest you spend some time searching the internet for facts before you post anymore SHIT on this forum, big mouth!


----------



## True Blue

slowhand99 said:


> many of the people who post here are wannabee bigshots, low level sales people who understand nothing, unemployed kerb layers, never quote facts, trolls, the uneducated and can't read who have bought nothing, sold nothing but have uninformed opinions about anything. They will be spewing out the same bullshit next year without realising they are doing it. Still they are something to smile at from time to time.


What an ARROGANT PRICK!!!


----------



## HappyLarry

True Blue said:


> What an ARROGANT PRICK!!!


That told him. :cheers:


----------



## MANUTD

slowhand99 said:


> It is more than you can do. If you read it, it has some useful and relevant points. Lets have some practical relevant facts from you that a disappointed investor can use.
> 
> Just slagging off the developer is not helpful. There isn't one investor who isn't very pissed off with the developer. You are just stating the obvious as TB and others do.
> 
> probono's post is very interesting and useful if true. Also Mistermark's post about doubting whether you can get legal redress is also very interesting and relevant. Man U pay attention and try harder to contribute something useful


Ok my tip , any disgruntled investor shoud listen to PRO BONO now --difference is I did 12 months ago :cheers: got to admit I looked after No.1 when others had heads in the sand :cheers:


----------



## MANUTD

SGrCRAP said:


> Very interesting - would an independent fire survey delivered by professional fire engineers which stated the entire fire control system (throughout the building) did not meet current standards be sufficient for a Dubai court to rule in favour of the owners as a collective?


We will find out I hope soon ?? Interesting times ahead


----------



## captain_caveman

To the guy who said that only 10 odd people are unhappy with the torch project: I have spoken to either face to face or over the phone to a figure that is a multiple of this 10 figure. If you include the timeshare people as well and the unhappy investors of other select project including their developments in other countries other than UAE (which has already been reported) then I am afraid the figure is 100s


----------



## shakka

*Who is a Select agent provocateur?*

A lot of people on this forum are accusing certain people of working for Select. I believe there to be a couple of regular posters to be working for or more the case used to work for Select Group either in the UK or Dubai as a sales agent.

I think they should do the right thing & own up now to working with this dishonest company. Then we know where they stand & why they may be always looking to the positive on what has been a disgusting company in the way they have run their business. On the other hand maybe they have been duped as well thinking they were selling apartments from an honest developer. I think we as buyers are owed this to know who may have a hidden agenda on this forum.

So who was a Select employee or sales agent commission only or whatever?


----------



## Morrismarina

What's a "provocateur" Any annoying Frenchman perhaps ?? :dunno:


----------



## shakka

Morrismarina said:


> What's a "provocateur" Any annoying Frenchman perhaps ?? :dunno:


Not quite what I was getting at.

Well the silence is deafening! As least Morrismarina & Barry have come forward & admitted their part, fair enough. For that they must be commended. Its the others who have remained silent who check this forum & post regularly that deserve the real contempt.

So come on. I mean are you ashamed or something?


----------



## AZ_1st

shakka said:


> Not quite what I was getting at.
> 
> Well the silence is deafening! As least Morrismarina & Barry have come forward & admitted their part, fair enough. For that they must be commended. Its the others who have remained silent who check this forum & post regularly that deserve the real contempt.
> 
> So come on. I mean are you ashamed or something?


maybe we should have a vote on who we think the actors/agents are?


----------



## agod

....


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Dubai Having completed and handed over the world’s tallest dedicated residential high-rise — The Torch with 86 floors — its developer is turning to unfinished business in Ras Al Khaimah.

The Select Group has an ongoing project called the Pacific, featuring a cluster of six mid-rise buildings, in the northern emirate. The topping out for all six properties is complete and the rest of the work is, according to the developer, progressing well.

This will now set the stage for a renewed attempt at selling the 30 per cent of the properties that are unsold as of now. “For the remaining inventory Select holds in Pacific, we are planning to revive our sales campaign in the second quarter,” chairman Rahail Eslam said.
“We will be specifically targeting certain nationalities that are regular visitors to Ras Al Khaimah, i.e., Russians, Italians and Germans, although this does not mean we will restrict our marketing to these groups only. The emirate is a popular retreat among Dubai expatriates and local residents.”

The developer is looking to attain a price tag of Dh700 to Dh800 per square foot. Property selling in these still uncertain times comes with a fair share of caveats.
Buyer’s market

It is very much a buyer’s market and they can well set the tone for what the properties will actually sell for. Only developers with deep pockets and a lot of patience can hope to sit it out until the market trends set an opposite course.

The Select Group expects its track record of five completed projects in Dubai to raise its credentials along with the fact that the Pacific in Ras Al Khaimah is nearly 70 per cent sold.

“The Pacific is one of the few projects that has never been scaled down or placed on hold in RAK. It is around 70 per cent sold and our confidence to complete the project remains intact,” Eslam added. “Tough times have not deterred us from pursuing projects within a framework of prudence and diligence, including the financial planning. And our investor base continues to be intact.”
Even in Dubai it has enough to keep the developer keen in the near term. The handover process is continuing apace at the 41-storey Botanica, and with a botanical garden on the 27th floor, in Dubai Marina.

Completion of the Bay Central, a cluster of three high-rises also located in Dubai Marina, is scheduled for later this quarter. One of the high-rises will function as a five-star hotel and also feature serviced apartments. The identity of the hotel operator has not been disclosed.

Progress on land bank

“All our land bank in Dubai Marina is either under construction or already completed, including the hotel which is anticipated to open in early 2013,” Eslam said. “To date, we are the largest private developer in Dubai Marina.”

The completed properties now have their own owner association managements, which work in coordination with the interim board of property owners. “Within three to four months of opening a new project, we call an annual general assembly of all owners to elect an interim board to work with the OAMs — all FM services within each development are outsourced to specialist third-party suppliers,” Eslam said.

new strategy

rescue scheme

Now that it is more or less done with its roster of its own projects, the Select Group is giving a thought to help out with the stalled developments of other developers.

“There are good opportunities to rescue partially completed developments in Dubai and soon we will be placing our interest in some of those projects,” Rahail Eslam said. “We are already looking at other opportunities in Dubai and internationally — we are not just looking to complete our projects and sit idle.

“However, our main focus is placed on the handovers and completion of our ongoing projects.”

http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidG..._Torch_Select_Group_focuses_on_Ras_Al_Khaimah


----------



## agod

The man has Balls, I will give him that.


----------



## True Blue

^^ It just shows you the absurd level of profit that they have made out of selling high and delivering low. Being 3 years late with their bread and butter developments AND NOW they are coming to the rescue of other developers. you couldn't make it up!


----------



## The night

Quote:
Originally Posted by MANUTD View Post
Yes i'm in here unfortunately - I'm told quite a few are in Arbitration in THE TORCH -- but i dont know of any "victories" as such




Yes, MANUTD,,,, you are correct,,,, Arbitration has been successful for many investors.

Why would SG want "victories" splashed all over these forums?

Wonder what agreement they reached?

All the regular disgruntled contributors to these forums who spent so much time threatening legal action have disappeared into thin air.
Do you think they 'gave up' ,,,,, or did SG just have them all shot? Investor activity on these forums is now a fraction of what it was a year ago.
The only regular contributors left are 'SG', 'Imre',, people who signed addendums and others who seem to be overly concerned about the views from their balcony's.

So many of those unhappy people who 'posted' with such conviction ARE gone. How come?

They have reached an amicable resolution and signed gagging clause. Remember 'Mistermark'. He DID tell us a long time ago


----------



## Pro Bono

*RAHAIL ASLAM – AEQUITAS*

Ladies & Gentlemen,

The net is closing in on Rahail Aslam. We are making headway with a very senior official at the Dubai government. We have been collecting information on how Mr Aslam has been behaving towards investors and will soon be publishing a file disclosing facts that fully incriminate Mr Aslam.

Anyone wishing to get money out of SG or any of its little subsidiaries, my advice is to do it quickly. I don’t think SG will be around next year.

Heres just a small sample of some data which tells you everything you need to know about Rahail Aslam and his crooked ways.

An excerpt for the lazy;

_“Sir Martin Nourse, delivering the Court’s judgment, found that CIL was unable to rely upon the good faith defence because its controller, *Mr Aslam*, must have known that the £50,000 payment that CIL received was actually made by the Company, rather than by Mr Susca personally, and that the payment was made at a time when the Company was insolvent.”_

Full ruling;

http://www.mayerbrown.com/london/article.asp?id=3338&nid=369


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Where will the LPP payments go to if Select Group are not around?


----------



## shakka

Good question Steve. In your case to another company that has bought the assets off Select or gained by bankruptcy ie your LPP portion of your apartment. So anybody taking Select to court looking to get paid out could be your next landlord.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ I hope any new landlord will stick to the agreement and allow reduction in price for early repayments as Select have done.


----------



## Mistermark

Pro Bono said:


> Ladies & Gentlemen,
> 
> The net is closing in on Rahail Aslam. We are making headway with a very senior official at the Dubai government. We have been collecting information on how Mr Aslam has been behaving towards investors and will soon be publishing a file disclosing facts that fully incriminate Mr Aslam.
> 
> Anyone wishing to get money out of SG or any of its little subsidiaries, my advice is to do it quickly. I don’t think SG will be around next year.
> 
> Heres just a small sample of some data which tells you everything you need to know about Rahail Aslam and his crooked ways.
> 
> An excerpt for the lazy;
> 
> _“Sir Martin Nourse, delivering the Court’s judgment, found that CIL was unable to rely upon the good faith defence because its controller, *Mr Aslam*, must have known that the £50,000 payment that CIL received was actually made by the Company, rather than by Mr Susca personally, and that the payment was made at a time when the Company was insolvent.”_
> 
> Full ruling;
> 
> http://www.mayerbrown.com/london/article.asp?id=3338&nid=369


This refers to an allegation of improperly moving money out of an insolvent UK company, a long time before Aslam set up shop in Dubai. If the UK authorities were unable to get him banged to rights, what chance the corrupt and incompetent Dubai ones? There's a big gap between proving someone is dodgy and getting redress.


----------



## Pro Bono

Mistermark said:


> *This refers to an allegation* of improperly moving money out of an insolvent UK company, a long time before Aslam set up shop in Dubai. If the UK authorities were unable to get him banged to rights, what chance the corrupt and incompetent Dubai ones? There's a big gap between proving someone is dodgy and getting redress.


No, you are wrong.

This does not refer to an allegation. This refers to a court judgement to which remedial action was necessary, demanded and implemented by a UK court. We have only disclosed one detail of the full file we have on Rahail Aslam. We have a trail of similar incidents of such acts in the UK and are currently speaking to several people who are willing to provide written testimony which will be used in a court of law here in the UK. This is just one instance that was dealt with through the courts. 

Do you think this was an isolated incident?

We believe that one of the reasons Mr Aslam is in Dubai is the fact that he believes it is a safe haven from some of his dealings in Cheshire.

We agree that the UAE law system is impotent. The UK system is not, this is why we are going to use it to bring him down legitimately. Rahail Aslam can do what he wants in Dubai, but he cannot erase his corporate history in the UK. All of his business activities are available for the public record and he has a lot to lose now he has made some money.

Corporate fraud if proven is a very serious offence, as is money laundering and tax evasion. There is a high appetite for UK authorities wanting to be seen as successful in capturing such offenders, wherever they reside.

Rarely does someone go from selling cars to controlling a multi-million dollar property empire without upsetting a few people along the way. The problem is if one has left evidence of wrong doing, then due to one’s success, one has a lot more to lose. 

Every company bar one, that Rahail Aslam has had a Directorship of in the UK has been wound up, dissolved or liquidated. Ever wonder why? Something to hide perhaps? 13 companies and none of them were sound enough to continue trading?

There is a lot we don’t know yet, but there is a lot we do know and in time we will have enough to pass to the UK authorities so that Mr Aslam’s past becomes his new problem.


----------



## MANUTD

Pro Bono said:


> No, you are wrong.
> 
> This does not refer to an allegation. This refers to a court judgement to which remedial action was necessary, demanded and implemented by a UK court. We have only disclosed one detail of the full file we have on Rahail Aslam. We have a trail of similar incidents of such acts in the UK and are currently speaking to several people who are willing to provide written testimony which will be used in a court of law here in the UK. This is just one instance that was dealt with through the courts.
> 
> Do you think this was an isolated incident?
> 
> We believe that one of the reasons Mr Aslam is in Dubai is the fact that he believes it is a safe haven from some of his dealings in Cheshire.
> 
> We agree that the UAE law system is impotent. The UK system is not, this is why we are going to use it to bring him down legitimately. Rahail Aslam can do what he wants in Dubai, but he cannot erase his corporate history in the UK. All of his business activities are available for the public record and he has a lot to lose now he has made some money.
> 
> Corporate fraud if proven is a very serious offence, as is money laundering and tax evasion. There is a high appetite for UK authorities wanting to be seen as successful in capturing such offenders, wherever they reside.
> 
> Rarely does someone go from selling cars to controlling a multi-million dollar property empire without upsetting a few people along the way. The problem is if one has left evidence of wrong doing, then due to one’s success, one has a lot more to lose.
> 
> Every company bar one, that Rahail Aslam has had a Directorship of in the UK has been wound up, dissolved or liquidated. Ever wonder why? Something to hide perhaps? 13 companies and none of them were sound enough to continue trading?
> 
> There is a lot we don’t know yet, but there is a lot we do know and in time we will have enough to pass to the UK authorities so that Mr Aslam’s past becomes his new problem.


Yes my guy dug up 13 companies too funnily enough 

Good luck with your efforts , I couldn't imagine ruinning a business in the fashion you mention , but sometimes people seem to get on like that , not for me though  

Hope one day soon there may be redress of some fashion lets see what happens :cheers:


----------



## MANUTD

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ I hope any new landlord will stick to the agreement and allow reduction in price for early repayments as Select have done.


They would HAVE TO contractually ==oh but theres the problem :lol::lol:


----------



## SGrCRAP

*Update on Select Group and chiller pipes*

I've spent the last three weeks going over my 3 bed unit in the Point with a fine toothcomb. The smug *unts/Select Group bum chums will no doubt bang on about the Point being totally different to other Select Developments but the simple fact is.... it was built by the same monkeys who built the Torch and the issues I've found are apparently widespread throughout Dubai. 

For those who want to get ahead of the curve this is the technical breakdown of what's wrong with DCE's pipe lagging and for that matter pretty much every other building in Dubai which was knocked up on the cheap with no quality control or oversight by the developer. In no particular order:-

- The pipe insulation is not cut correctly around elbow joints, gate valves, drain valves and support brackets (the brackets support the chiller pipe runs by tying them into the concrete ceiling)

- DCE taped all the insulation so it looks like everything is nice and tidy but this is where the problem lies. To identify an area of poor insulation you need to either spot the condensation or feel around each joint very carefully. Where the condensation has presented itself you will always find an area where the insulation is either too thin or is simply not present. You've really got to get your fingers into find the problems - if you feel cold it's a sign the insulation is poor or not there. I've found completely exposed chiller pipe in the worst cases. The difficult places to lag are notorious for gaps in the insulation. Eg where the CHWS pipe runs very close to the AC drain and the pipes touch. Or where the chiller water pipe is up tight against the ac outlet ducting. You'll also find virtually every joint is poorly lagged ie elbows, valves etc.

- I've completed the re-lagging exercise in my 3 bed unit and it's not an easy job if you want it done properly. I stripped back the insulation, removed condensed water and rust, treated corroded areas with zinc oxide, remade the insulation properly, re-taped it and then covered the repaired areas with aluminium foil tape to improve the thermal insulation even further. 

- I had to cut two ceiling access holes in the corridor to lag support brackets and two elbows which were poorly insulated. I also repaired any water damage on the ceiling side of the plasterboard - the condensation drips make holes in the plasterboard which will eventually fail and leak directly into your unit. After filling the damaged areas I treated both sides of the plasterboard with an oil based paint to protect them in the event of any future condensation. Shouldn't be a problem now due to lagging everything properly. 

- Basically every FCU (fan coil unit) will need a lot of remedial lagging done around it is there are normally quite a few gate valves to allow the unit to be taken out of circuit for servicing/repair etc. 

- Someone suggested 700 AED to get this done. If you want some clown to stand on some step ladders and put some tape around your condensing pipes then rock on. It won't solve the problem! 

To do this properly the insulation needs to be spot on. Botannica and the Torch do have lagged pipes - so did the Point. The point (pardon the pun) I'm making is I think the probability of the chiller pipes being poorly insulated in the Torch, Botanica, BC etc is almost 1. Ie certain. The condensation problems won't present themselves for a good while after handover as the water will be building up inside the lagging and dripping onto the 60x60 ceiling panels and onto the plasterboard ceilings. The problem will only become apparent about 12-18 months after handover when things start failing due to excessive condensation in your roof voids. If you see your 60x60 panels starting to warp then suspect trouble!

If anyone wants a list of materials let me know - doing this yourself doesn't cost much but it's a dirty and time consuming job. It would be much easier to do it in newer buildings as the surface level rust on the chiller pipes won't have really taken hold yet so you won't have rusty water running down your arms when you open up the old lagging!

Before idiots start posting pro Select crap about all their developments post the Point being top notch and perfect - I challenge these morons to revisit their units 1 year from now (after a nice hot summer) - let's see whether condensation problems have reared their head in SG developments by 12/02/13. If they have - I will be dishing it out to all the twits who drank too much Select Group coolaide


----------



## FWIW

SGrCRAP said:


> I've spent the last three weeks going over my 3 bed unit in the Point with a fine toothcomb. The smug *unts/Select Group bum chums will no doubt bang on about the Point being totally different to other Select Developments but the simple fact is.... it was built by the same monkeys who built the Torch and the issues I've found are apparently widespread throughout Dubai.
> 
> For those who want to get ahead of the curve this is the technical breakdown of what's wrong with DCE's pipe lagging and for that matter pretty much every other building in Dubai which was knocked up on the cheap with no quality control or oversight by the developer. In no particular order:-
> 
> - The pipe insulation is not cut correctly around elbow joints, gate valves, drain valves and support brackets (the brackets support the chiller pipe runs by tying them into the concrete ceiling)
> 
> - DCE taped all the insulation so it looks like everything is nice and tidy but this is where the problem lies. To identify an area of poor insulation you need to either spot the condensation or feel around each joint very carefully. Where the condensation has presented itself you will always find an area where the insulation is either too thin or is simply not present. You've really got to get your fingers into find the problems - if you feel cold it's a sign the insulation is poor or not there. I've found completely exposed chiller pipe in the worst cases. The difficult places to lag are notorious for gaps in the insulation. Eg where the CHWS pipe runs very close to the AC drain and the pipes touch. Or where the chiller water pipe is up tight against the ac outlet ducting. You'll also find virtually every joint is poorly lagged ie elbows, valves etc.
> 
> - I've completed the re-lagging exercise in my 3 bed unit and it's not an easy job if you want it done properly. I stripped back the insulation, removed condensed water and rust, treated corroded areas with zinc oxide, remade the insulation properly, re-taped it and then covered the repaired areas with aluminium foil tape to improve the thermal insulation even further.
> 
> - I had to cut two ceiling access holes in the corridor to lag support brackets and two elbows which were poorly insulated. I also repaired any water damage on the ceiling side of the plasterboard - the condensation drips make holes in the plasterboard which will eventually fail and leak directly into your unit. After filling the damaged areas I treated both sides of the plasterboard with an oil based paint to protect them in the event of any future condensation. Shouldn't be a problem now due to lagging everything properly.
> 
> - Basically every FCU (fan coil unit) will need a lot of remedial lagging done around it is there are normally quite a few gate valves to allow the unit to be taken out of circuit for servicing/repair etc.
> 
> - Someone suggested 700 AED to get this done. If you want some clown to stand on some step ladders and put some tape around your condensing pipes then rock on. It won't solve the problem!
> 
> To do this properly the insulation needs to be spot on. Botannica and the Torch do have lagged pipes - so did the Point. The point (pardon the pun) I'm making is I think the probability of the chiller pipes being poorly insulated in the Torch, Botanica, BC etc is almost 1. Ie certain. The condensation problems won't present themselves for a good while after handover as the water will be building up inside the lagging and dripping onto the 60x60 ceiling panels and onto the plasterboard ceilings. The problem will only become apparent about 12-18 months after handover when things start failing due to excessive condensation in your roof voids. If you see your 60x60 panels starting to warp then suspect trouble!
> 
> If anyone wants a list of materials let me know - doing this yourself doesn't cost much but it's a dirty and time consuming job. It would be much easier to do it in newer buildings as the surface level rust on the chiller pipes won't have really taken hold yet so you won't have rusty water running down your arms when you open up the old lagging!
> 
> Before idiots start posting pro Select crap about all their developments post the Point being top notch and perfect - I challenge these morons to revisit their units 1 year from now (after a nice hot summer) - let's see whether condensation problems have reared their head in SG developments by 12/02/13. If they have - I will be dishing it out to all the twits who drank too much Select Group coolaide


Thanks for this as it is very very useful info! First thing I will do in bay central is have a look or if you are in town buy you a beer or two to have a quick shifty?


----------



## shakka

"Homes from Hell the Dubai dream" on ITV on Tuesday 13 March 8pm.
Look out Select here it comes..


----------



## scoobudubai

shakka said:


> "Homes from Hell the Dubai dream" on ITV on Tuesday 13 March 8pm.
> Look out Select here it comes..


Well there was a Torch investor in the show - however no mention of The Torch!!


----------



## scoobudubai

Furthermore, on 'homes from hell' they mentioned I think more than once that Sheikh Mohammed said investors would not lose money....
Apparently he said much more than that (not mentioned in the program for some reason):
http://selectdubaibeware.com/Sheikh_Mohammed_guarantee_capital_of_investors_Newspaper_Article/Article_Al_Bayan_From_Sheikh.pdf


----------



## MANUTD

scoobudubai said:


> Furthermore, on 'homes from hell' they mentioned I think more than once that Sheikh Mohammed said investors would not lose money....
> Apparently he said much more than that (not mentioned in the program for some reason):
> http://selectdubaibeware.com/Sheikh_Mohammed_guarantee_capital_of_investors_Newspaper_Article/Article_Al_Bayan_From_Sheikh.pdf


Any one fancy taking on Sheikh Mo ??


----------



## Imre

22/March/2012


----------



## scoobudubai

Imre said:


> 22/March/2012


That reminds me - are they registered at the OFT for MLR? beautiful cab - virgin pure white innocence - hopefully all those who deserve it get what they deserve!!


----------



## scoobudubai

Morrismarina said:


> What evidence do you have that they have only used investors funds ?? There are plenty of other ways to raise finance. The owner Rahail Aslam is worth over £100m and is featured in the Sunday Times Rich List. The MD Mark Stott is also very wealthy in his own right. Perhaps the owners have put capital into the business. Perhaps bank finance is involved. Or other equity partners ?? Who knows. But it's pure speculation to suggest they are only using investors funds for expansion.
> 
> So what's wrong with making a fortune from a computer business and then diversifying into property ?? What's wrong with owning a chain of luxury car showrooms in the UK and diversifying into property ?? You're right the restless never make any money by standing still. Look at Richard Branson, starting off selling records now he's into airlines, holidays, drinks, TV and media, cosmetics, trains, ballooning, finance, even looking to take over Northern Rock. Why do you deny the owners of DS the right to be ambitious ??
> 
> What do you mean by the escrow law is too late for DS investors ?? We know that DS were way ahead of the game by launching Bay Central over a year ago with the first escrow account in Dubai. I'd be very surprised if they were found not to have organised their finances to comply with the escrow law on their other developments.
> 
> DS have launched three projetcs in Dubai and all are under construction, yes they are going to be delayed but there's very few developments that come in on time in Dubai - at least DS investors haven't got the problems other have eg. The Atlantic, Dubai Lagoon and the Wind Tower.
> 
> I just think you're trying to cause trouble Salameer. :bash:



Name & Registered Office:
THE NORTH AND SOUTH COMPANY LIMITED
Company No. 03836236

Accounting Reference Date: 31/12
Last Accounts Made Up To: 31/12/2004 (FULL)
Next Accounts Due: 31/10/2006 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To: 06/09/2007
Next Return Due: 04/10/2008 OVERDUE 



Case Number: 1 
Case Type: Compulsory Liquidation 

Practitioner name: OR MANCHESTER, THE OFFICIAL RECEIVER 
Practitioner address: 1ST FLOOR 
BOULTON HOUSE 
17-21 CHORLTON STREET 
MANCHESTER 
M1 3HY 

Practitioner name: OR LONDON, THE OFFICIAL RECEIVER 
Practitioner address: 21 BLOOMSBURY STREET 
LONDON 
WC1B 3SS

Do people check out the CEO's before investing with a company?
I know I would not invest with a company run by someone with this track record. It would make be even more nervous about signing 'addenda' which place me in a riskier situation.


----------



## AZ_1st

*Can anyone recommend a Dubai Layer?*

it's got to a point where I can't take any more from Select


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ Why, what have they done now?


----------



## kuttika

will this provide us all relief from having to sign the addendums, late delivery, facilities and other many issues with them.

http://www.emirates247.com/property...und-if-developers-default-2012-04-29-1.456094


----------



## True Blue

^^Just a proposal at this time, needs to be finalised and posted as law before it becomes a useable legal instrument.

Seems a shame that the authorities are starting to get their act together after the horse has bolted. Obviously the authorities are well aware that unscrupulous developers have been preparing glossy sales material showing ficticious designs and standards of finish that they have no intention of including in the final product. The intention only being to deceive purchasers and obtain the signatures.

I think off plan is over for Select, they won't be able to sell another development from doctored pictures. Buyers will not pay a cent until they see the finished item in future.


----------



## ianthy

True Blue said:


> ^^Just a proposal at this time, needs to be finalised and posted as law before it becomes a useable legal instrument.
> 
> Seems a shame that the authorities are starting to get their act together after the horse has bolted. Obviously the authorities are well aware that unscrupulous developers have been preparing glossy sales material showing ficticious designs and standards of finish that they have no intention of including in the final product. The intention only being to deceive purchasers and obtain the signatures.
> 
> I think off plan is over for Select, they won't be able to sell another development from doctored pictures. Buyers will not pay a cent until they see the finished item in future.


Correct - I can not see anyone in the future falling for their outright lies without seeing exactly what these cowboys are selling. Also there will be plenty of properties for sale in Dubai, so why would you buy from these guys again.


----------



## kuttika

ianthy said:


> Correct - I can not see anyone in the future falling for their outright lies without seeing exactly what these cowboys are selling. Also there will be plenty of properties for sale in Dubai, so why would you buy from these guys again.


I dont even think they are going to try to build anything here anymore with the kind of reputation that they have now.


----------



## scoobudubai

True Blue said:


> ^^Just a proposal at this time, needs to be finalised and posted as law before it becomes a useable legal instrument.
> 
> Seems a shame that the authorities are starting to get their act together after the horse has bolted. Obviously the authorities are well aware that unscrupulous developers have been preparing glossy sales material showing ficticious designs and standards of finish that they have no intention of including in the final product. The intention only being to deceive purchasers and obtain the signatures.
> 
> I think off plan is over for Select, they won't be able to sell another development from doctored pictures. Buyers will not pay a cent until they see the finished item in future.


Far worse - deceiving people that the developer is U.K., planning permission is in place to start the build, supervisory architects K&H, 3 year delay using funds to commence other projects then claiming Force Majeure, the forcing people to sign away their rights with crazy addenda etc etc, preventing handover but investors still having to pay even after 6 years for another 9 years with no handover for fear of losing all money paid to date


----------



## Psofos

scoobudubai said:


> Far worse - deceiving people that the developer is U.K., planning permission is in place to start the build, supervisory architects K&H, 3 year delay using funds to commence other projects then claiming Force Majeure, the forcing people to sign away their rights with crazy addenda etc etc, preventing handover but investors still having to pay even after 6 years for another 9 years with no handover for fear of losing all money paid to date


Potential investors would include social media research and WOM before buying in Dubai. This being the case they will see Select Group and Select Property for the cowboys they really are!
Psofos.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> investors still having to pay even after 6 years for another 9 years with no handover for fear of losing all money paid to date


(Even though you have not signed addendum 2 to get handover) Don't you still have a fear of losing all money paid to date if you do not pay your next 9 years LPP instalments as agreed in the SPA?


----------



## DennyCrane

ianthy said:


> Correct - I can not see anyone in the future falling for their outright lies without seeing exactly what these cowboys are selling. Also there will be plenty of properties for sale in Dubai, so why would you buy from these guys again.


I think you can be fairly sure that any new Select developments would have a lot of "useful help and tips" on this forum for any potential new investors with this developer......hno:


----------



## profit hunter

This could be interesting:

http://www.propertywire.com/news/mid...205016475.html

New Dubai law to give buyers full refund if developer fails to deliver on time 
Tuesday, 01 May 2012 

Dubai property investors are set to get a full refund if developers default on handover under a proposed new Investor Protection Law that could be in force by the end of June 2012.


The proposal also makes it mandatory for developers to provide all promised common facilities. It means that if there are delays and failures investors will be eligible for cancellation of their contracts and get a full refund.

It also means that swimming pools, gyms or any other promised facilities will have to be ready before officially handing over the keys to the new owners.

This comes as a growing number of developers have failed to provide the facilities mentioned in their sales purchase agreements (SPAs) or marketing material. Until now, buyers did not have much recourse and could only hope that the facilities would get completed at some point in time.

Developers will also face fines if the units they promise are not delivered on time, or to agreed specifications.

A proposed provision of the draft law also says that if a unit turns out to be 30% smaller than the actual net area in the contract, the investor will have the right to cancel the contract and obtain a full refund.

In case of off plan sales, the draft proposes to make it mandatory for a developer to get all approvals from the Real Estate Regulatory Agency (RERA) and to register all saleable units with the Dubai Land Department’s online registration system.

The developer is also obliged to register all contracts with RERA and to provide all information regarding the project’s handover, escrow account, etc.

According to Sultan Bin Mejren, director general of the Dubai Land Department, the new law could be implemented by the end of June.

Following the global economic slowdown of 2008, there are still hundreds of property projects on hold in Dubai. According to the latest figures from 165 projects have been completed since the beginning of 2009, 291 projects are on hold, 291 projects are likely to be completed in due course, and 29 projects have not yet been started.


----------



## MANUTD

profit hunter said:


> This could be interesting:
> 
> http://www.propertywire.com/news/mid...205016475.html
> 
> New Dubai law to give buyers full refund if developer fails to deliver on time
> Tuesday, 01 May 2012
> 
> Dubai property investors are set to get a full refund if developers default on handover under a proposed new Investor Protection Law that could be in force by the end of June 2012.
> 
> 
> The proposal also makes it mandatory for developers to provide all promised common facilities. It means that if there are delays and failures investors will be eligible for cancellation of their contracts and get a full refund.
> 
> It also means that swimming pools, gyms or any other promised facilities will have to be ready before officially handing over the keys to the new owners.
> 
> This comes as a growing number of developers have failed to provide the facilities mentioned in their sales purchase agreements (SPAs) or marketing material. Until now, buyers did not have much recourse and could only hope that the facilities would get completed at some point in time.
> 
> Developers will also face fines if the units they promise are not delivered on time, or to agreed specifications.
> 
> A proposed provision of the draft law also says that if a unit turns out to be 30% smaller than the actual net area in the contract, the investor will have the right to cancel the contract and obtain a full refund.
> 
> In case of off plan sales, the draft proposes to make it mandatory for a developer to get all approvals from the Real Estate Regulatory Agency (RERA) and to register all saleable units with the Dubai Land Department’s online registration system.
> 
> The developer is also obliged to register all contracts with RERA and to provide all information regarding the project’s handover, escrow account, etc.
> 
> According to Sultan Bin Mejren, director general of the Dubai Land Department, the new law could be implemented by the end of June.
> 
> Following the global economic slowdown of 2008, there are still hundreds of property projects on hold in Dubai. According to the latest figures from 165 projects have been completed since the beginning of 2009, 291 projects are on hold, 291 projects are likely to be completed in due course, and 29 projects have not yet been started.


Nobody knows if this is retrospective yet --if it is it will be VERY interesting !


----------



## kuttika

MANUTD said:


> Nobody knows if this is retrospective yet --if it is it will be VERY interesting !


you can read up an article by hadef & Partners in their web site re. this news- apparently this law is not retrospective


----------



## True Blue

There is nothing to beat the smell of raw sewage in your Italian sports car!


----------



## FWIW

True Blue said:


> There is nothing to beat the smell of raw sewage in your Italian sports car!


Which Dev is this? I'm assuming it is a select one!


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Maybe he is referring to the Torch basement leak back in Feb 16th? :dunno:



mohamed hamada said:


> *Feb 16th 2012*
> 
> Today morning , i find the Basement 4 full of water around 3 inches of water flow all over the basement
> i can't pass to reach my car , i leave it and take a taxi.
> I don't know what is happen now , i don't know if they fix this stupid problem , and i don't Know what happen to my car.


but TrueBlue's imageshack post shows B3 not B4.


----------



## scoobudubai

torchowner said:


> Following the expose' in the March 20th edition of the Mail On Sunday regarding the dealings of Select Property in the UK, journalist Tony Hetherington is now looking into the dealings of both Select Property and the Select Group in the UAE.
> If you have bought a property through either, or both of these companies , and feel that you have been misled, lied to or simply not received what you paid for thenTony would like to hear from you.
> In the first instance please write to;
> Tony Hetherington,
> Financial Mail,
> 2, Derby Street,
> London, W8 5TS


Any news on Tony Hetherington? what about the article on Select?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ So Scoob, are you going to complete and take handover now that you do not need to sign the addendums to get handover?



MANUTD said:


> A little bird tells me that SG might be relenting on LTPP Addendums
> 
> They probably got enough to sign now and just want to clear up the rest with no hassle - best to contact SG see what they say ?


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ So Scoob, are you going to complete and take handover now that you do not need to sign the addendums to get handover?


All I know is that certain processes have been initiated in London which are almost unstoppable.

Is Man UTD. a director of Torch Select Ltd.?


----------



## MANUTD

scoobudubai said:


> All I know is that certain processes have been initiated in London which are almost unstoppable.
> 
> Is Man UTD. a director of Torch Select Ltd.?


Wish I was I could have a Richard Mille instead of my old gold Hublot :lol::lol:


----------



## MANUTD

True Blue said:


> There is nothing to beat the smell of raw sewage in your Italian sports car!


good one TB :lol::lol:


----------



## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> Is Man UTD. a director of Torch Select Ltd.?


Yes that is why he is so wealthy with plenty of cash stashed away in the Seychelles


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> Yes that is why he is so wealthy with plenty of cash stashed away in the Seychelles


Is Torch Select Ltd. a Seychelles company?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ Why don't you ask Select?


----------



## CAJ

Dubai_Steve said:


> Yes that is why he is so wealthy with plenty of cash stashed away in the Seychelles


Trying detract attention from yourself.cant wait for the the new law to come into effect. TSL will be having to hand money back right left and centre.


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ Why don't you ask Select?


There is only one way to ask - sending a courier to a Dubai PO box number - problem is they don't respond.

Like many people we thought that Torch Select Ltd. was effectively owned by Mark Stott & his Dubai Select company back in 2006, but that started to change in 2008 and Mark Stott subsequently in complete denial relating to ownership of Torch Select Ltd. - mind you did say last year it was owned by Select International Developments which is one of his companies - unless he made a mistake / slip of the tongue perhaps?

Crikes - signing a contract with a company which just has a PO box in Dubai - no idea where it is, who it is or what it is - or how to contact it other than by courier to a PO box number in Dubai with no response..it might be registered in timbuktu for all we know!


----------



## kuttika

scoobudubai said:


> There is only one way to ask - sending a courier to a Dubai PO box number - problem is they don't respond.
> 
> Like many people we thought that Torch Select Ltd. was effectively owned by Mark Stott & his Dubai Select company back in 2006, but that started to change in 2008 and Mark Stott subsequently in complete denial relating to ownership of Torch Select Ltd. - mind you did say last year it was owned by Select International Developments which is one of his companies - unless he made a mistake / slip of the tongue perhaps?
> 
> Crikes - signing a contract with a company which just has a PO box in Dubai - no idea where it is, who it is or what it is - or how to contact it other than by courier to a PO box number in Dubai with no response..it might be registered in timbuktu for all we know!


Is this true of all their developments, including bc and botanica


----------



## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> There is only one way to ask - sending a courier to a Dubai PO box number - problem is they don't respond.
> 
> Like many people we thought that Torch Select Ltd. was effectively owned by Mark Stott & his Dubai Select company back in 2006, but that started to change in 2008 and Mark Stott subsequently in complete denial relating to ownership of Torch Select Ltd. - mind you did say last year it was owned by Select International Developments which is one of his companies - unless he made a mistake / slip of the tongue perhaps?
> 
> Crikes - signing a contract with a company which just has a PO box in Dubai - no idea where it is, who it is or what it is - or how to contact it other than by courier to a PO box number in Dubai with no response..it might be registered in timbuktu for all we know!


I thought Torch Select Ltd. is a child company of Select Group. So can you not contact Select Group by email or phone at their Dubai Marina address and ask?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

CAJ said:


> Trying detract attention from yourself.cant wait for the the new law to come into effect. TSL will be having to hand money back right left and centre.


The new law is not retrospective.


----------



## Dubai_Steve

kuttika said:


> Is this true of all their developments, including bc and botanica


Yes I think so. each development seems to have its own holding company, including Botanica.


----------



## CAJ

Dubai_Steve said:


> The new law is not retrospective.


If unencumbered handover has not taken place before the law comes in, it will not matter wether it is retrospective or not because TSL will be breaking the law at that point. Get your reasonable deals done TSL it's only going to get worse for you


----------



## AZ_1st

CAJ said:


> If unencumbered handover has not taken place before the law comes in, it will not matter wether it is retrospective or not because TSL will be breaking the law at that point. Get your reasonable deals done TSL it's only going to get worse for you


i think that's why they are desperate to hand over BC. including paying a large "deposit" to Municipality for the handover certificate...interesting times ahead.


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> I thought Torch Select Ltd. is a child company of Select Group. So can you not contact Select Group by email or phone at their Dubai Marina address and ask?


I don't know who Select Group is - apart from the fact that they appear as the facilities management company in schedule 10 of the contract. Why would I ask a facilities management company?

What is a child company? something Stott / Aslam gave birth to?


----------



## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> I don't know who Select Group is - apart from the fact that they appear as the facilities management company in schedule 10 of the contract. Why would I ask a facilities management company?
> 
> What is a child company? something Stott / Aslam gave birth to?


Either that or a company run by children


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> Either that or a company run by children


Seriously, we are trying to understand -what is Select Group Ltd.- ?

If it is the 'parent' company of Torch Select Ltd., does that mean it has more than 50 percent shares? Or is Select Group Ltd, a company of unknown country of origin, an 'agent' of Torch Select Ltd? The www.select-group.ae website says it's a 'freezone' company with no additional information whatsoever as to it's exact origin. Gulf News said that Select Group Ltd. is a U.K. based developer, presumably they had Mark Stott in mind?

This seems to conflict with Select Developments (we were asked to send Oqood registration fees to this company), and Select International Developments, who, as we've been led to believe, 'own' Torch Select Ltd, Select International Developments being a Mark Stott company.

I keep hearing about investors taking Select Group Ltd. to arbitration instead of Torch Select Ltd. How does this work? what do the lawyers say, do they simply accept Select Group Ltd. is a 'parent'?


----------



## Pro Bono

Scoobudubai,

What exactly are you trying to achieve?

You seem to be completely obsessed with company formation and ownership. You are wasting your energy and probably boring the majority of the readership of this forum to tears, whilst providing a subject of pure amusement to those working for Select.

If you are a Torch invester as i was. Your contract is with Torch Select Ltd. If you are an LPP investor then your unit will be registered with the DLD in the name of Torch Select Ltd. If you can prove breaches of contract then all you have to do is seek redress by using the arbitration process at the DIAC. 

Providing you can evidence any breach you will win. If Torch Select Ltd refuse to pay your award then the UAE courts will execute your award against their assets which in your case will be the appartment you jointly own (provide you have paid your 1% OQOOD payment). You will also be awarded costs.

Making handover conditional to signing extra addendums is illegal and Torch Select Ltd know this. Only the weak and desperate have signed. They will live to regret this course of action and only when they understand the full extent of rights they have given up will the reality sink in.

I dont understand why you have not started the process of seeking redress in court already.


----------



## profit hunter

Pro Bono said:


> Scoobudubai,
> 
> 
> Providing you can evidence any breach you will win. If Torch Select Ltd refuse to pay your award then the UAE courts will execute your award against their assets which in your case will be the appartment you jointly own (provide you have paid your 1% OQOOD payment). You will also be awarded costs.
> 
> 
> Has anyone actually won yet? Winning would be getting money back from
> Select Group and legal fees paid.


----------



## scoobudubai

Pro Bono, who exactly are you and what are your interests? I recall you posted last year saying you had tremendous success in getting your money back, at the same time micmonro was tried to get people to put money down and pursue matters legally in Dubai against Select Group Ltd.

I note you did not really add anything of any legal worth, instead prefer to ridicule us. If you have anything of any legal worth to identify who Select Group Ltd is and their relation to Torch Select Ltd., I might respect that.

I would be very worried about the Dubai arbitration campaigns - it's now one year on and I don't feel confident that anyone has won. I certainly hope that it's working.

Any decent lawyer would start with the very basics - e.g. with whom did you sign your contract? We know that in relation to "The Torch" a lot of people signed believing Torch Select Ltd. was part of Mark Stott's company based in the U.K.

So I still need an answer to the question, are lawyers quite happily taking people to court vs. Select Group Ltd? if so, they must surely have done due diligence to establish who they (SGL) are, where they are registered, and why they can represent Torch Select Ltd? e.g. is SG a majority shareholder?

If cases are still going on, why? Surely it is quite possible for Torch Select Ltd. to go bankrupt, people lose their money, and the Dubai lawyers are laughing all the way to the bank?

In any case you talk of breach of contract. What about those who see the London High Court as the place to seek remedy, for not just total breach of contract but for fraud as well?

Also there is a difference between those who bought in 2005 and 2006 compared to those who bought later, their interests could be quite different.


----------



## scoobudubai

See Select Group
Directors
Mark Stott
Giles Beswick
Mark Littlewood
2001 Directors

http://www.selectdubaibeware.com/Se...)/Item_Select_Group_International_Limited.pdf


----------



## kuttika

profit hunter said:


> Pro Bono said:
> 
> 
> 
> Scoobudubai,
> 
> 
> Providing you can evidence any breach you will win. If Torch Select Ltd refuse to pay your award then the UAE courts will execute your award against their assets which in your case will be the appartment you jointly own (provide you have paid your 1% OQOOD payment). You will also be awarded costs.
> 
> 
> Has anyone actually won yet? Winning would be getting money back from
> Select Group and legal fees paid.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, there are so many people in this forum who have bought in their developments in dubai, all facing similar situations of signing addendums and there is no news of anyone winning. Or is there a confidentiality clause- therefore no one will make it public information, even if they have won in the arbitration or have come to an arrangement with select
Click to expand...


----------



## profit hunter

kuttika said:


> profit hunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, there are so many people in this forum who have bought in their developments in dubai, all facing similar situations of signing addendums and there is no news of anyone winning. Or is there a confidentiality clause- therefore no one will make it public information, even if they have won in the arbitration or have come to an arrangement with select
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure that if someone (out of the hundreds of people taking on Select Group in Dubai courts) won, they would at least share it with us here.
Click to expand...


----------



## AZ_1st

profit hunter said:


> kuttika said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure that if someone (out of the hundreds of people taking on Select Group in Dubai courts) won, they would at least share it with us here.
> 
> 
> 
> why would they share with you?
Click to expand...


----------



## Pro Bono

Arbitration procedures are always confidential in Dubai. Only when an award has been ratified by the final court can it be made public. Select generally settle prior to this to keep things quiet.

Scoobudubai, if you need any help with your website my 6 year year old could lend you a hand if you like.

Why are you worried about identifying company structures. It's pointless. You have a legal agreement with Torch Select Ltd.
You jointly own an asset with Torch Select Ltd.
You have a legal dispute with Torch Select Ltd.
So simply take action against Torch Select Ltd.

When you serve a DIAC notice on Torch Select Ltd they have a duty to respond to the DIAC and either acknowlege that they are party to the arbitration procedure or deny that they are party to it. 

If they acknowlege that they are party then the process proceeds to a conclusion and any award is made against them for which they are liable. If they liquidate the company as you suggest prior to paying the award then the courts simple use their share of your jointly owned asset (your unit) to satisfy the award.

If you dont want to pay a lawyer then do it yourself. Its a simple form to complete and sent to the DIAC.


----------



## scoobudubai

Pro Bono said:


> Arbitration procedures are always confidential in Dubai. Only when an award has been ratified by the final court can it be made public. Select generally settle prior to this to keep things quiet.
> 
> Scoobudubai, if you need any help with your website my 6 year year old could lend you a hand if you like.
> 
> Why are you worried about identifying company structures. It's pointless. You have a legal agreement with Torch Select Ltd.
> You jointly own an asset with Torch Select Ltd.
> You have a legal dispute with Torch Select Ltd.
> So simply take action against Torch Select Ltd.
> 
> When you serve a DIAC notice on Torch Select Ltd they have a duty to respond to the DIAC and either acknowlege that they are party to the arbitration procedure or deny that they are party to it.
> 
> If they acknowlege that they are party then the process proceeds to a conclusion and any award is made against them for which they are liable. If they liquidate the company as you suggest prior to paying the award then the courts simple use their share of your jointly owned asset (your unit) to satisfy the award.
> 
> If you dont want to pay a lawyer then do it yourself. Its a simple form to complete and sent to the DIAC.


Interesting.

Last year you wrote:

_I have been in a legal dispute with SG since 2009 when they originally claimed Force Majeure on the development despite sacking respected architects Khatib & Alami due to a disagreement on the way Select wanted to cut corners on both design and implementation process in order to bleed profit from the project. After a long drawn out process of Arbitration and then enforcement by the Courts we are now in a position to throw some light on why Select Group have been and are behaving the way they are.


...

Anyway the point of me posting is just to say that we won our case against Select and the court upheld the arbitration ruling. Force Majeure was judged not to have applied at the Torch and Select are liable to pay penalties on the money we paid at the HSBC Middle East base rate until they give us possession and occupation of our unit. 

...


As handover proceeds it is essential that all Select Group investors are fully aware of certain facts that significantly change the balance of power in their developments. My experience in dealing with this developer is a messy one. I was an investor in the Torch, however I am now in a much better place and retribution has been served on those who elected to act dishonourably towards me and many other investors. A FULL REFUND plus interest has been delivered._

I notice that you have yet to explain the relationship between Select Group, and TSL. I notice that you never mentioned TSL once last year when you only spoke about SG. Now you only speak of TSL, and you no longer mention SG.

It's unclear to me also, are you claiming you ended up with possession and occupation of your unit, or all your money refunded? It's clear that some investors couldn't wait to part with £15k after you posted the first time.

As you claim your award was enforced by the court, is there any evidence of this, publicly available?

You also claimed that Select Group sacked Khatib and Alami, but people were signing schedule 10 of the SPA, in 2005, 2006, which had SG as a facilities management company.


----------



## profit hunter

AZ_1st said:


> profit hunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> why would they share with you?
> 
> 
> 
> And why not? What's the secret? It would be nice to know that someone
> has succeeded in taking on Select through Dubai courts. Then it would encourage others to do so. It seems to me that Select Group and lawyers are laughing all the way to the bank.
Click to expand...


----------



## AZ_1st

profit hunter said:


> AZ_1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> And why not? What's the secret? It would be nice to know that someone
> has succeeded in taking on Select through Dubai courts. Then it would encourage others to do so. It seems to me that Select Group and lawyers are laughing all the way to the bank.
> 
> 
> 
> perhaps it's a condition of their case/settlement not to declare publicly????
> 
> Your an anonymous name on a bulletin board. For all they know you could be a Select employee :lol:
> 
> Have you heard of anyone taking Select to court and losing??
Click to expand...


----------



## profit hunter

AZ_1st said:


> profit hunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> perhaps it's a condition of their case/settlement not to declare publicly????
> 
> Your an anonymous name on a bulletin board. For all they know you could be a Select employee :lol:
> 
> Have you heard of anyone taking Select to court and losing??
> 
> 
> 
> Select employee:lol: You've made my day with that comment. I've read
> here and on other forums about people wanting to take legal action against Select Group and was just wondering how is everyone getting on.
> 
> If I was working for SG, I would already know.:nuts:
Click to expand...


----------



## scoobudubai

Oct 2008: "Select Property, the UK based property developer, has joined forces with the Duchess of York Sarah Ferguson and the Dubai based Select Group to unveil a charitable foundation called "Sarah Selects", set up to help disadvantaged children in the United Arab Emirates."

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/10/prweb1471234.htm

Mark Stott: "...helping children all over the World, which is an issue cause close to my heart"


Telegraph 13th Jan 2012:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...arah-Duchess-of-York-and-Queen-of-Cringe.html

Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York "In 2008 it emerged she had taken a five-figure fee to attend the launch of her own her children's charity, Sarah Selects." 


Does anyone know the hotline for Sarah Selects, so that we pan pay some well-deserved donations to the Stott, Aslam, Ferguson charity?


----------



## Psofos

scoobudubai said:


> Oct 2008: "Select Property, the UK based property developer, has joined forces with the Duchess of York Sarah Ferguson and the Dubai based Select Group to unveil a charitable foundation called "Sarah Selects", set up to help disadvantaged children in the United Arab Emirates."
> 
> http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/10/prweb1471234.htm
> 
> Mark Stott: "...helping children all over the World, which is an issue cause close to my heart"
> 
> 
> Telegraph 13th Jan 2012:
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...arah-Duchess-of-York-and-Queen-of-Cringe.html
> 
> Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York "In 2008 it emerged she had taken a five-figure fee to attend the launch of her own her children's charity, Sarah Selects."
> 
> 
> Does anyone know the hotline for Sarah Selects, so that we pan pay some well-deserved donations to the Stott, Aslam, Ferguson charity?


I never did trust that toe sucker!


----------



## scoobudubai

Or surely not, does sarah select disadvantaged 'human children'? or more likely children in real need - e.g. children of SG, Torch Select, Point Developments?


----------



## True Blue

Sarah Ferguson is another money grabbing bankrupt. You can bet she charges her charity 90% for using her "good" name.


----------



## Pro Bono

Here is some factual information on Select Property UK. I have been investigating this company for some time and I am now in a position to commence the informaiton flow as promised. The information is factual and in the public domain.




In my opinion it is a matter of time before this company folds.


----------



## Pro Bono

*GOING CONCERN*



For those who are unable to fully understand the implications of the factual information above which is factual data held in the public domain allow me to explain how this affects anyone investing in the Pacific project with Select Property UK

*Paragraph 1 beginning with “The company incurred”. *
This means that for the year to 31st December 2010 Select Property made a loss. 

*Paragraph 2 beginning with “The company is a party”.* 
Select Property is able to function as a solvent company as its parent company has agreed to underwrite its losses. On 31st December 2010 the group that underwrites Select Property had a deficit of £42,828. So the Group that was supposed to underwrite losses was also in debt and therefore unable to underwrite losses.

*Paragraph 3 beginning with “The directors expect”. *
In this paragraph the directors of Select Property explain that for some reason they expect their business to turn around during 2011/2012 which will allow the business to return to profitability. In order to allow the business to continue trading Select Property had to take out loans simply to meet their on-going obligations.

The report also goes on to mention that although certain banking covenants have been put in place by organisations lending money to allow Select Property to continue trading this was breached by Select Property and the bank forced Select Property to refinance the loan into a long term loan.

*Paragraph 4 beginning with “In addition the group”.*
Select Property are using the carrot of Pacific completing in 2012 to their bankers. Select are telling their bankers that the value placed on Pacific is reduced due to its incomplete state. Select are telling their bankers that when Pacific is complete in 2012 it will be worth so much more than it is now. Select are relying on the project completing this year and collecting final payments just to remain solvent.


----------



## anilm

..


----------



## Dubai_Steve

So what will happen to the existing LPP payment scheme for handed over properties if Select should happen to fold? or does this relate only to Select Property's UK's sales branch?


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> So what will happen to the existing LPP payment scheme for handed over properties if Select should happen to fold? or does this relate only to Select Property's UK's sales branch?


Also what happens to the LPP for those who have been a) refused handover (sign here saga), but are on the interim register at the land dept 

b) refused handover (sign here saga), but are -not- on the interim register at the land dept


----------



## Dubai_Steve

scoobudubai said:


> Also what happens to the LPP for those who have been a) refused handover (sign here saga), but are on the interim register at the land dept
> 
> b) refused handover (sign here saga), but are -not- on the interim register at the land dept


I am in a similar situation with another property in a different country. Everyone refused to take handover because the development was not fully completed, ie. no hotel, no marina, no shops, no golf course etc. just an apartment. The company then went bankrupt and another company bought the asset. The new company claims that they did not buy any of the liabilities for some technical legal reason and now we have an expensive fight on our hands to get the money back which will take 5 years or so if anything. I hope not the same situation here.

Although I think anilm's post above refers to Select Property UK only (who were involved in Pacific) and not related to Torch Select.


----------



## Dubai bound

very interesting.
If you got some money to invest, there is a new company selling now, they are called
Wolfe & Cole.... would you trust such a nice name........ have a look at website, see any resemblance.............. LOL


----------



## scoobudubai

Dubai_Steve said:


> I am in a similar situation with another property in a different country. Everyone refused to take handover because the development was not fully completed, ie. no hotel, no marina, no shops, no golf course etc. just an apartment. The company then went bankrupt and another company bought the asset. The new company claims that they did not buy any of the liabilities for some technical legal reason and now we have an expensive fight on our hands to get the money back which will take 5 years or so if anything. I hope not the same situation here.
> 
> Although I think anilm's post above refers to Select Property UK only (who were involved in Pacific) and not related to Torch Select.


As far as we are hearing the only way to go is to Select the U.K. High Court. - fraud / total breach of contract.


----------



## scoobudubai

To anybody who believes they have been defrauded etc - we have very important information to relay which will prove -extremely- useful, but we are holding back for the moment.
It relates to the data protection act.


----------



## shakka

scoobudubai said:


> To anybody who believes they have been defrauded etc - we have very important information to relay which will prove -extremely- useful, but we are holding back for the moment.
> It relates to the data protection act.


Defrauded - We have all been defrauded, lied to & generally taken the pi** out of. Can one person say otherwise?


----------



## sabrtaqwa

I agree with you we need to stick together as investors.

Would all investors like to meet up and see what we can do re: our position.
Or as im new if you have something setup let me know.
[email protected]

I have an appointment with a powerful M.P so anyone want to suggest anything just send me a pm or email. Thanks


----------



## John-Dory

This is a great deal for Standard Chartered Bank.
We are paying approx. 7% on our LPP while Standard Chartered are offering mortgages for 4-5% to ordinary punters, plus the loan-to-value ratio is very low and the properties are built and occupied.
Who needs customers in Iran with deals like this...


----------



## FlyJim

Maybe it's better going to a UK bank.
Are there new payment details, or does it still have to go to Barclays? (no notice yet received).


----------



## True Blue

Interesting article;

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/-we-thought-we-d-get-rich-quick--443389.html?page=0



> Another lawyer, Nick Clayson of Norton Rose, says that developers may sometimes be obliged to deliver facilities even if there is no mention of them in the contract, so if they have marketed the development as one with ample amenities, but issues need to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
> “It is unlikely that an end-user would be able to reject a property where, for example, the pool was not finished or the landscaping not complete,” Clayson says.
> He recommends that investors keep tabs on all communication with developers, to support any future legal proceedings. He says a written note of each call should be made, and investors should identify the person they are speaking to and understand their position and ability to make decisions.
> “Face-to-face meetings are better and minutes should be taken. If letters are sent these should be sent by courier and copies retained. A well-ordered file of all correspondence, receipts and notes of calls will also make things much easier if lawyers have to be involved.”


In summary, if Select promised something through their marketing that has not been delivered then they could be forced to offer compensation or a full refund if they do not honour their promises. *Whether or not it is specifically mentioned in the SPA*. They are excused for late delivery in the case of the 5 star hotel in Bay Central but if it does not become a 5 star hotel, everyone will be entitled to sue for compensation.


----------



## Mistermark

Morally, True Blue, I agree with you. But has anyone ever won a case and received compensation from a developer in Dubai for a failure to deliver a project to the advertised specification?


----------



## True Blue

^^The Lawyer in the article seems to think it is a sound case that will succeed in court. The only problem seems to be the timescales to get things through the courts at present with them being bogged down with so many cases. Probably Select that are the biggest contributor to the wealth of the legal eagles :lol:


----------



## Mistermark

True Blue said:


> ^^The Lawyer in the article seems to think it is a sound case that will succeed in court. The only problem seems to be the timescales to get things through the courts at present with them being bogged down with so many cases. Probably Select that are the biggest contributor to the wealth of the legal eagles :lol:


I remember when I was dealing with the scum at Select, a lot of lawyers assured me they could get a result. When I asked them whether they were confident enough to work on a no-win, no-fee basis, they back-tracked pretty quickly. So I see these local press articles as lawyers touting for business, to be taken with a pinch of salt.


----------



## True Blue

Mistermark said:


> I remember when I was dealing with the scum at Select, a lot of lawyers assured me they could get a result. When I asked them whether they were confident enough to work on a no-win, no-fee basis, they back-tracked pretty quickly. So I see these local press articles as lawyers touting for business, to be taken with a pinch of salt.


I know what you mean. I have just come from a meeting involving an Administrator of a company (LLB qualified), a large company of Property Managers legal team and my own solicitor. I am not law qualified but I knew more about the strenghts and weaknesses of the case than they all did together. When I told them how I would easily defeat them in court, they went white and backed down. Bluff and bluster with most of them, that's why only a few make it to become a judge.


----------



## I Know

*Defamation laws keep the aggrieved quiet*



> Kevin Brass
> Nov 8, 2011
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The UAE's often complex defamation laws are having a chilling effect on criticism of developers and the property market.
> 
> Unhappy buyers and commentators are wary of speaking out in fear of facing a defamation charge, which is a criminal matter in the UAE, according to lawyers. Those who openly criticise developers could face prison time or large fines.
> 
> "I think it makes all of us more cautious about how open we are in a public forum," says Ludmila Yamalova, an attorney who often works with property buyers.


http://www.thenational.ae/thenation...erty/defamation-laws-keep-the-aggrieved-quiet


----------



## jay_jan

Dear Everyone , 

We all know the situation with select and everyone has agreed we have been mis - sold.

I have tried a couple of lawyers in the uk because i think select uk is to blamed first.

If anyone wants to join me send me a private message. If not , could you help me by 

giving me advise . And if anyone is willing to be a witness in court let me know.

Many Thanks


----------



## captain_caveman

For those who had lost money to SP and SG or who feel they had been misled into bad investments - statements are being collected by authorities in the UK. Should you wish to submit a statement then your first point of contact should be the Citizens Advice (CAS/CAB) and they will put you through to trading standards. As I said, statements are being collected.


----------



## ianthy

captain_caveman said:


> For those who had lost money to SP and SG or who feel they had been misled into bad investments - statements are being collected by authorities in the UK. Should you wish to submit a statement then your first point of contact should be the Citizens Advice (CAS/CAB) and they will put you through to trading standards. As I said, statements are being collected.


Hi 

This is very helpful information. Is there a specific number or office that we should call/email address or just call any CAS/CAB office?

thks

Ianthy


----------



## captain_caveman

This is the number:

Call the Citizens Advice consumer helpline

To get information or advice, call the Citizens Advice consumer helpline on 08454 04 05 06

The helplines are open Monday to Friday 9.00am to 5.00pm.


They will report your case to the appropiate authorities i.e. trading standards etc...

As I said already, statements are being collected.


----------



## captain_caveman

missell i.e. misrepresentations are breaches of the Consumer Protection Regulations and should be reported to your local Trading Standards office as a criminal act. 

Report Select to Trading Standards either directly or via CAB/CAS.


----------



## fightback

Pro Bono are you still fighting? I am interested in fighting Rahail Aslam and Mark Stott et al in UK Court and then possibly in UAE Court. We have lost 548,457.82AED. Apartment in The Torch de-registered last year despite offering payment within specified time. Also written to CEO RERA await reply.


----------



## fightback

Captain Caveman. Have you tried Police in UK under Fraud Act 2006. Dubai Select in Wilmslow had at least the monetary gain of the £2000.00 deposits. I have written proof it was their fee. We were told all part of same company e.g. their developers.

As Pro Bono states (1607 Feb 2012) Corporate fraud if proven is a very serious offence, as is money laundering and tax evasion. There is a high appetite for UK authorities wanting to be seen as successful in capturing such offenders wherever they reside.

People power! We fighting for refund/compensation.


----------



## fightback

Mistermark said:


> I remember when I was dealing with the scum at Select, a lot of lawyers assured me they could get a result. When I asked them whether they were confident enough to work on a no-win, no-fee basis, they back-tracked pretty quickly. So I see these local press articles as lawyers touting for business, to be taken with a pinch of salt.


You appear to have been on the thread a long time. What is your situation. Did you lose apartment to SG. We have lost our apartment. We had it let and they de-registered it!

We are fighting a campaign in UK, Wilmslow Office. We could arrange a protest People Power! They are threatening to have an injunction put on me We have a legal right to peaceful campaign Under Human Rights Act. I have spoken to Police regarding this matter. But I will tread very carefully and act fully within the law.



Fightback


----------



## fightback

scoobudubai said:


> Far worse - deceiving people that the developer is U.K., planning permission is in place to start the build, supervisory architects K&H, 3 year delay using funds to commence other projects then claiming Force Majeure, the forcing people to sign away their rights with crazy addenda etc etc, preventing handover but investors still having to pay even after 6 years for another 9 years with no handover for fear of losing all money paid to date


Could not have put it better myself. Our fear turned into reality. We had handover but only because they wanted us to pay service charge. Then de-registered apartment which was let! We now determined to fight back.

People Power


----------



## fightback

captain_caveman said:


> missell i.e. misrepresentations are breaches of the Consumer Protection Regulations and should be reported to your local Trading Standards office as a criminal act.
> 
> Report Select to Trading Standards either directly or via CAB/CAS.


I contacted Trading Standards UK. They say not come under consumer law but Property Law so they could not act. Is this wrong info? 

If criminal act surely we should all contact Police Fraud Squad, 

Look at Fraud act 2006, "Fraud by false representation" as defined by Section 2 of the Act as a case where a persosn makes "any representation as to fact or law...express or implied" which they know to be untrue or misleading.

I think many of us agree we were MISLEAD!


----------



## fightback

ianthy said:


> Hi
> 
> This is very helpful information. Is there a specific number or office that we should call/email address or just call any CAS/CAB office?
> 
> thks
> 
> Ianthy


Please let me know if they have been helpful. I doubt it as they are not legally trained, they are volunteers and this I feel would be too complex for them to deal with. We need to look at the lawyers who specialise in UAE Law and Fraud Squad in UK possibly under CONSENT AND CONNIVANCE: THE CRIMINAL LIABILITY OF DIRECTORS AND SENIOR OFFICERS.

Rahail Aslam
Mark Stott
Paul Brady et al?


----------



## fightback

jay_jan said:


> Dear Everyone ,
> 
> We all know the situation with select and everyone has agreed we have been mis - sold.
> 
> I have tried a couple of lawyers in the uk because i think select uk is to blamed first.
> 
> If anyone wants to join me send me a private message. If not , could you help me by
> 
> giving me advise . And if anyone is willing to be a witness in court let me know.
> 
> Many Thanks


----------



## fightback

Dubai_Steve said:


> In 2005 the Torch was launched with a height of 345m, which is approx. the height of the final product.


OK how approximate , and for that matter , what is the height of 6 floors?

Enough for a Sales/PR Exercise at the expense of the original investors.

I want exact figures please - you seem to know wall the answers Steve?
Anyone else know the figures e.g. final height.


----------



## fightback

Pro Bono said:


> ATTENTION TO ALL SELECT GROUP VICTIMS
> 
> You may recall a few of my posts stating that arbitration is the only way forward with these crooks as I can personally testify, as I have won a case and received my funds back from them.
> 
> I have been assisting another investor in a case where the DIAC has just awarded a significant sum due to several breaches of contract and within the details of the case are some very serious issues that have now become proven facts in law.
> 
> Issues such as;
> 
> Force Majeure
> Unit Size
> Illegal Addendums
> 
> Due to the confidential nature of arbitration in the UAE none of these shocking facts can be disclosed unless the arbitration award is not settled by Select Group and the case goes through the ratification and execution process in the Dubai courts.
> 
> If Select Group are arrogant enough and stupid enough to try and appeal this award in the courts, (which they probably are) the result and details of the case will become public, VERY PUBLIC.
> 
> Due to my professional background in law and media I have already lined up journalists in the UAE and UK who could not believe the dirty tricks (which are unlawful, even in Dubai) that Select Group have tried to pull over on investors, and in so many cases succeeded.
> 
> If any investors have not taken handover of any Select Group unit and are currently in arbitration then the details of this case will provide invaluable evidence to boost your case and ensure a successful and profitable result.
> 
> If any investors have not yet taken handover of any Select Group unit and are not yet in arbitration then the details of this case will give you the confidence to take these crooks on and win.
> 
> For those investors who have signed addendums 1&2 for any Select Group project then you have been financially raped by Select Group. Once you read the details of this case and award that will be widely published following its appearance in a UAE court, you should all invest in a good lawyer in Dubai and seek redress. Addendum 1 stating that you accept your unit and no further liability is due from Select Group will not hold up in court in context to the weight of evidence and contract breaches that have been conducted.
> 
> You have all been coerced and forced to sign away your legal rights under duress and threat of loss. Your arbitration rights within the SPA are still valid (there is no legal long stop), and you are therefore still able to seek redress for the losses that you have been forced to accept.


People Power


----------



## shakka

fightback said:


> Are you company plant ? Since when have Select Group been reasonable?
> Pal of Dubai Steve?
> 
> I have given a reply to your question - now in legal hands. The full case will come out.
> 
> We are not alone - others have lost more than us.
> 
> We will fight - PEOPLE POWER


Hi Fightback, Lol no I'm not a company plant. It just sounded incredible to think that one late payment resulted in losing your apartment & I thought maybe something else had happened as well. If this is the case then I feel truly for you. I just cannot understand why they would do this.


----------



## fightback

shakka said:


> Hi Fightback, Lol no I'm not a company plant. It just sounded incredible to think that one late payment resulted in losing your apartment & I thought maybe something else had happened as well. If this is the case then I feel truly for you. I just cannot understand why they would do this.


Thanks Shakka - we cant understand it either. I apologised to you on the other Thread COMPLETED:THE TORCH, 84F Res,338m.

We fighting them - I will keep your informed.

Hope you enjoy your apartment. We are gutted to lose not only our money but our dream which we held for over 6 years of our lives when they were in default and asking us to be patient, its unbelievable, I think they just did it because they could, Corporate bullies?hno::bash:

PEOPLE POWER


----------



## jeetha

^^This is not right. 
How can Select be so cruel. Have they no shame.:bash:

Select stole your apartment and now won't talk to you.

Did Select warn you in any way... that you have missed a payment?


----------



## fightback

jeetha said:


> ^^This is not right.
> How can Select be so cruel. Have they no shame.:bash:
> 
> Select stole your apartment and now won't talk to you.
> 
> Did Select warn you in any way... that you have missed a payment?


Of course they did - and we made a 'promise to pay' it is all logged by email - ongoing case. I am just a 'lay-person' so do not want to say something that may be used in Court at later date.


----------



## fightback

Dubai_Steve said:


> At a guess it sounds like it was related to refusal to sign the "illegal" addendums :dunno:


I have nothing to hide.

You want to know my business, I want to know yours:

e.g. How many properties sold/developed by Select Group/Select Property Group Limited/Dubai Select have your purchased.

You seem to be on the Point Thread praising Select in 2005

Quote
"Does seem a bit pricey(The Point your referring to?) - but I think Dubai Select are factoring in the price rises due over the next 6 months. Remember this isnt launched yet.......
My only worry is the location, although since it is close to the new Mall and is Marina view its not too bad.

I think interior quality would have to be very good in order to sell all these though. Not crappy standard tiles and cheap cabinets seen in some oter developments from ote developers (Not Dubai Select). We ha ve yet to see how good Dubai Select interiors are.

My reply today on COMPLETED:The Point, 30F Res,130m (Dubai Marina) - Page 171 - SkyscraperCity

Fightback QUOTE:

Why were you worried about the location if you already owned a property in the Torch which I believe can be viewed from the Point. The building of the Torch commenced prior to the building of the Point so your comments do not make sense apart from defending of Dubai Select which makes good sense as a company plant.

Unfortunately we did not get to see the quality of the interior of our apartment in the Torch as it was de-registered and we lost all of our money paid to date after 6 long, long years of waiting and paying! Awaiting refund/compensation, interesting you call Dubai Select the Developer. In legal hands.


I shall be looking into who the Developers of all Select Buildings are and the Directorship of each company involved for overlap???

I am preparing file.


----------



## fightback

How many other investers note that the space for Agents signature was left blank on Reservation form?

Ours was and I know others were?


----------



## fightback

How many investers were aware that deposits paid were just the fee to Dubai Select Wilmslow. How many were led to believe that they were dealing with UK Company? It was "their Development, all part of the same company"?
They denied receipt of any payment, but now admit they received the deposits as their fee as the Agent. We were mis-lead, mis-sold?

They had monetary gain - Fraud?

This is my campaign.


----------



## fightback

scoobudubai said:


> My 2 shillings - DO NOT send your next payment to Select, send to the escrow account as usual -UNTIL- Torch Select Ltd. either couriers of faxes to you (as per clause 17) a statement that the building is complete and also stating the completion date. The "COMPLETION NOTICE" is just a trick to deceive you.



Hello scoobudubai - Are you still active?
Please contact me


----------



## fightback

jeetha said:


> ^^This is not right.
> How can Select be so cruel. Have they no shame.:bash:
> 
> Select stole your apartment and now won't talk to you.
> 
> Did Select warn you in any way... that you have missed a payment?


No they have no shame:

This will now go to arbitration.

We will continue to highlight the misleading sale (shall we say) 
by Select Property Group Limited, Was Dubai Select, Wilmslow,

Please support us if you also have a grievance as I know many out there who have contacted me:

Wilmslow Express,
Mitchell Henry House,
Hollinwood Avenue,
Chad, OL9 8EF.
[email protected]
Tel: (0044)161 211 2985

Local Press for:

Select Property Group Limited: originally Dubai Select.

I will continue fighting with the legal campaign! I will update you on the outcome.

Feel free to PM me.

AND SELECT GROUP IN DUBAI?

Who knows who is next? Especially when they in Seychelles? 

PEOPLE POWER!



Thanks


----------



## fightback

Pro Bono said:


> Arbitration procedures are always confidential in Dubai. Only when an award has been ratified by the final court can it be made public. Select generally settle prior to this to keep things quiet.
> 
> Scoobudubai, if you need any help with your website my 6 year year old could lend you a hand if you like.
> 
> Why are you worried about identifying company structures. It's pointless. You have a legal agreement with Torch Select Ltd.
> You jointly own an asset with Torch Select Ltd.
> You have a legal dispute with Torch Select Ltd.
> So simply take action against Torch Select Ltd.
> 
> When you serve a DIAC notice on Torch Select Ltd they have a duty to respond to the DIAC and either acknowlege that they are party to the arbitration procedure or deny that they are party to it.
> 
> If they acknowlege that they are party then the process proceeds to a conclusion and any award is made against them for which they are liable. If they liquidate the company as you suggest prior to paying the award then the courts simple use their share of your jointly owned asset (your unit) to satisfy the award.
> 
> If you dont want to pay a lawyer then do it yourself. Its a simple form to complete and sent to the DIAC.


Did you get to the bottom of who the Torch Select Limited directors are????


I am on the case and making file.


----------



## Sid

fightback said:


> Did you get to the bottom of who the Torch Select Limited directors are????
> 
> 
> I am on the case and making file.


ffs Scoobu, give it a rest!!


----------



## The night

Does anyone know the date that Select sacked Khatib & Alami as the architects of the Torch?


----------



## fightback

Sid said:


> ffs Scoobu, give it a rest!!


Wow, Scoobu, must be one hell of a guy/girl for my campaign to be compaired.

Well done Scoobu - PEOPLE POWER

Anyone with any doubts, not that I am bothered, as to my originality please PM me? PUT UP OR SHUT UP!


----------



## fightback

The night said:


> Does anyone know the date that Select sacked Khatib & Alami as the architects of the Torch?


Who are the directors of The Torch Limited?


----------



## fightback

Sid said:


> ffs Scoobu, give it a rest!!


Sid ffs, if in doubt PM me and I will reply to you personally. PUT UP OR SHUT UP! Dont know your angle but boring:nuts::nuts::nuts:


----------



## fightback

The night said:


> Does anyone know the date that Select sacked Khatib & Alami as the architects of the Torch?



typo: Who are the directors of Torch Select Limited?


----------



## The night

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobudubai 
Obviously this is in eveyones interest. Select claiming Force Majeure to avoid compensation payments, when in fact building got delayed for 2 years as they had to seek new planning permission for new cheaper design. 

Scoobudubai,
I'm sorry about my comments to you in the past. My paranoia has reached extreme heights in the last few years. Can any reasonable person blame me?
However. It was not personal. How could it be? I don't know you!

Anyway. I am in the midst of arbitration proceedings with SG. I need proof SG sacked Khatib & Alami. You have been posting about this for a long time. Will you help? Send me a PM. Even if it's just to say "F<<k OFF". At least then I'll know my paranoia was justified. Hope I'm wrong


----------



## Pro Bono

*ATTENTION ALL SELECT GROUP VICTIMS*

Dear investors,

We are now approaching the end game for Select in terms of their ability to manipulate investor sentiment and remain in control of the negative media surrounding their shady practices.

As previously informed, we have assisted investors to reach very favourable awards from the DIAC in relation to a Select Group project. At this stage the award remains confidential as do the details of the case. Once the case is either ratified or annulled by the Dubai Courts both the results, awards and details will become public knowledge and can be freely reported by the press both in the UAE and UK.

Due to our legal background and established links to various media outlets we have a press campaign ready and waiting to fly as soon as the Courts have either annulled or ratified the awards. 

We believe that the details of the cases will show clear evidence of business practices taking place in Dubai that the authorities will not want to be in the public domain, such as Select Group selling specifications that were known to be misleading (miss-selling) as well as unit sizes being knowingly oversold (corporate misrepresentation), sometimes by as much as 15% according to the regulations that were in force at the time of sale contract execution and indeed handover dates. Illegal addendums being made conditional for handover which are personally signed by Rahail Aslam will show publicly the levels of deceit and dishonesty that this man and his company will stoop to in the name of greed. We believe that these issues relate to all of the units in The Point, The Torch, Bay Central, Botanica and Pacific developments. 

Regardless of whether you were coerced into signing illegal addendums or not, we strongly believe that you have a case to pursue Select Group in the Dubai Courts to be compensated for your losses if you so wish. If on the other hand you have accepted that you were beaten by a richer man then the chance of causing some PR damage may offer you an opportunity for retribution.

The media attention that we will soon be serving into the public domain in the UK and the UAE will create serious consequences for Select Group to deal with and if nothing else will show the investing public what a complete shower of crooks they are. Our media partners will be very pleased to hear from any investor who feels that they have been treated unfairly by Select Group so that the reporting of the FACTS can be further corroborated and the size and scale of the issues can also be reported.

The Office of Fair Trading and Serious Fraud Office in the UK are next to useless and cannot cause any problems for Mr Aslam and Co in Dubai. When armed with the right facts and evidence the Media however is a different animal and will cause significant damage to Mr Aslam and Select Group’s reputation.

If you would like to be contact by a member of our UK and UAE media partners in the near future please send us your name and e-mail address by Private Message and we will forward them to our media partners in due course.


----------



## fightback

The night said:


> Does anyone know the date that Select sacked Khatib & Alami as the architects of the Torch?


What about the master developer Emaar? Wont they tell you?
Have you looked at who the Architects were on the other select projects
e.g. The Point Architects NEB?


----------



## fightback

FWIW said:


> Completely seperate companies? I think not.


:bash:


----------



## fightback

johnnyinspain said:


> I have been reading this thread with some interest. I really wish you guys all the luck with this fight.
> 
> However I must comment on 2 points.
> 
> I did a lot of due diligence on Select in 2007 before being advised NOT to deal with this Group by my lawyer. The 2 companies WERE/ARE connected, but they try VERY hard to mask this. A full historical search in UK AND Dubai will reveal this although Select are trying VERY hard to hide this.
> 
> Secondly, Select have a number of "plants" on this site feeding false "positive" posts on Select. The funniest and most obvious "idiot" was the guy last week who said he "would buy from Select again". I actually cannot find the words to express what a fool this guy is!!!!! Anyone who has read this and BC thread and is stupid enough to say they would buy from Select again really should be shot!!! :bash:
> 
> I will try to find my lawyers report from 2007 if anyone is interested.


Im interested please send PM? Thank you.


----------



## Pro Bono

If you are interested to receive a full and detailed summary of a recent case win against Select then simply PM a valid e-mail address to us and once the case is made public by the Dubai courts we will be e-mailing a 100+ page document showing all the dirty tricks that Aslam and his friends have tried to pull on investors.

We currently have 100+ investors subscribed to receive the document and contact requests from the UK and UAE media.

Within the case details is proof that Select knew the sizes of all apartments sold at the time of the contracts and were undersized by 15% -20%. Force Majeure is invalid and based upon complete fantasy. Addendums are illegal under UAE law and withholding handover is effectively bribery, which we believe is punishable by imprisonment in the UAE if prosecuted in the criminal courts.


----------



## Mistermark

Pro Bono said:


> If you are interested to receive a full and detailed summary of a recent case win against Select then simply PM a valid e-mail address to us and once the case is made public by the Dubai courts we will be e-mailing a 100+ page document showing all the dirty tricks that Aslam and his friends have tried to pull on investors.
> 
> We currently have 100+ investors subscribed to receive the document and contact requests from the UK and UAE media.
> 
> Within the case details is proof that Select knew the sizes of all apartments sold at the time of the contracts and were undersized by 15% -20%. Force Majeure is invalid and based upon complete fantasy. Addendums are illegal under UAE law and withholding handover is effectively bribery, which we believe is punishable by imprisonment in the UAE if prosecuted in the criminal courts.


Has anyone received the promised information? I emailed Scooby, er, Pro Bono a few days ago asking for this 'proof'. So far, no news.


----------



## fightback

*The Defamation Act 2013*

The Defamation Act 2013 Royal assent 25th April 2013

Areas of interest:
*Provides increased protection of websites that host user generated content.

*Requirement for claimants to show that they have suffered severe harm before suing for defamation.

*Introduces new statutory defences of truth and honest opinion to replace the common law defences of justification and fair comment.

coming soon: www.selectdubaibeware.co.uk

Hope to be able to show documents, (eg. emails) photographs of campaign
so far etc etc


----------



## Pro Bono

*OVERWHELMING RESPONSE*

Dear Investors,

Thank you for your overwhelming response. We now have over 120 e-mail addresses from investors in all of Select Groups projects in the UAE. It seems like Selects legal problems are only just beginning.

We have not got the time to respond individually to all requests due to the sheer numbers involved. A couple of you have expressed a view that we are not genuine as we have not yet delivered the goods. As we said from the start we CAN NOT provide the detailed case report and evidence until the matter is a public one.

Please be assured that once this matter becomes public in the Dubai Court the full case files will be provided to everyone who has provided us with a valid e-mail address. We understand your frustrations but must act within the law and intend to do so.

The case file will prove the following;

*Force Majeure on all Select projects are pure fantasy. FACT.*
*Late delivery penalties as per SPA are due to investors. FACT.*
*All addendums are unnecessary to effect handover and are tantamount to bribery, these addendums are contrary to UAE civil law. FACT*
*Unit sizes as per SPA definition and what has been delivered is 10%-20% short and you are eligible for a refund pro rata. FACT*

Select Group - Rahail Aslam simply rely on a slow legal process and a lack of resolve from investors to get away with robbery. 

If you know the law and how to play the game you win. They lose.


----------



## fightback

*The Point Thread*

This message refers to a message on The Point Thread which should belong here. Dubai Steve posted message re Naz receiving 200% profit from sale of 1 bedroom apartment in the Torch. I doubt this and challenge it. This is because we had our apartment a 1 bedroom apartment up for sale in 2008 with Sherwoods because, in the absence of this forum ,we actually believed that handover was imminent as stated by Select Property/Select Group.

Get back with figures tomorrow Steve.

Also how come you know he sold his only Dubai asset in October 2008, when you will not confirm to me how many Dubai assets you have? You seem to know everyone elses business - inside information? Surely not?

:banana:


----------



## fightback

Pro Bono said:


> Dear Investors,
> 
> Thank you for your overwhelming response. We now have over 120 e-mail addresses from investors in all of Select Groups projects in the UAE. It seems like Selects legal problems are only just beginning.
> 
> We have not got the time to respond individually to all requests due to the sheer numbers involved. A couple of you have expressed a view that we are not genuine as we have not yet delivered the goods. As we said from the start we CAN NOT provide the detailed case report and evidence until the matter is a public one.
> 
> Please be assured that once this matter becomes public in the Dubai Court the full case files will be provided to everyone who has provided us with a valid e-mail address. We understand your frustrations but must act within the law and intend to do so.
> 
> The case file will prove the following;
> 
> *Force Majeure on all Select projects are pure fantasy. FACT.*
> *Late delivery penalties as per SPA are due to investors. FACT.*
> *All addendums are unnecessary to effect handover and are tantamount to bribery, these addendums are contrary to UAE civil law. FACT*
> *Unit sizes as per SPA definition and what has been delivered is 10%-20% short and you are eligible for a refund pro rata. FACT*
> 
> Select Group - Rahail Aslam simply rely on a slow legal process and a lack of resolve from investors to get away with robbery.
> 
> If you know the law and how to play the game you win. They lose.


I understand where you are at this time.:cheers: Good Luck.


----------



## fightback

*Fact*

Steve, I said I would get back with figures. 200% profit on 1 bedroom Torch apartment you suggest, in October 2008?

I have a document signed by Sherwoods dated 17th October 2008 for the attempted sale of our 1 bedroom apartment 957sq ft.

It was for sale at AED 1,562,868 showing the completion date at that time as 30th September 2009 which we sadly believed. What mugs we were to believe anything they said. Obviously we had to take it off the market when the completion date was not met AGAIN. The completion date that they set themselves. Always making us believe that we were just 2-3 payments so there was light at the end of the tunnel, deliberately misleading us all.

But basically can anyone truely believe that 200% profit was attainable at that time? Not me.
:bash:hno:


----------



## Dubai_Steve

Mackie sold one of his 2 torch units in 2008 for AED 1550 PSF. I will get back to you with figures for naz UK later.


----------



## unknownpleasures

micmonro1 said:


> *New law allows investors to void contracts*
> The law is aimed at protecting investors from delays or unilateral changes
> By Zaher Bitar, Staff ReporterPublished: 00:00 June 1, 2012
> 
> Dubai: *Real estate investors will be given the right to annul their contracts and get all their money back if developers violate the terms and condition,* according to the latest draft of Real Estate Investor Protection Law.
> Besides getting their funds back, *investors will be able to ask for additional compensation, while the developer can be fined, said the director of the Dubai Land Department, Sultan Butti Bin Mujren told Gulf News.*
> The law, which has been in the works for some time is expected to be issued soon by the department. *It is aimed at protecting investors from delays in the handing over of projects *or unilateral changes in the size or other specifications of the properties.
> *Investors can cancel the contract if the property handover is delayed for more than a year. This applies even if there is provision for completion delays in the contract. They will be eligible for compensation if the handover is delayed for more than a month, but less than a year, according to the draft.*
> The law will also offer investors recourse in case of defects in the property when it is delivered and undocumented claims and charges from developers, among other provisions.
> “*It is a clear legislative tool to break the contract and guarantee compensation for investors where the developer attempts to breach the contract,” Bin Mujren said.* According to the new law, the Land Department will have an observatory, regulatory, technical and executive role to protect investor’s rights. The law will spell out the rights and responsibilities of the developer and the investor during the project development, the sale of units, the completion of the properties and the handover to the investor.......
> Majida Ali Rashid, Director of the Center for Investment Management at the department said: “This law is the first of its kind ......... with the real estate sector in the emirate.”
> Muhannad Al Wadiya, managing director of Harbor Real Estate said that *the new law should be considered a wake-up call for developers to finish their projects *....... by creating “a positive vibe”.............
> The new laws are a necessary part of the ongoing efforts to safeguard investors and better regulate the Dubai property market, which experienced unprecedented boom – and bust – since 2007.
> *The Land Department has flagged the possibility of introducing a standard template for a sales and purchase agreement, which all developers will be required to use.*
> Al Wadiya said that this would end the practice of each developer using selling contracts to suit themselves. However, he pointed out that: *“Investors must now take the time to read, understand and negotiate the terms of their agreements, instead of blindly signing them*, which has been the case.”
> link-http://gulfnews.com/business/property/uae/new-law-allows-investors-to-void-contracts-1.1030320
> 
> 
> FOR THOSE WHO ARE STILL HOLDING BACK, HANG IN THERE, MORE TO COME SOON...
> Lily


What happened to this new law??? It's over a year now and nothing!hno:hno:


----------



## fightback

Dubai_Steve said:


> Mackie sold one of his 2 torch units in 2008 for AED 1550 PSF. I will get back to you with figures for naz UK later.


Stever, basing 1550 PSF on our measurements for our apartment 957SF that would be a total sale price of AED1,483,350. Which from the original cash price of AED787,500 would mean IF he paid full cash payment on purchase, ha, that would be 100% profit? Not 200% . 200% profit would be AED2,362,500!

Am I right people or is it me? Do the maths! Forget the bullshit PR.

Mackie naz who? And why do you have access to their figures?
:banana:


----------



## shakka

If you bought from Select either The Torch or The Point you were offered staged payments aka SPP or finance arrangement over 15 years aka LPP. If you were buying using SPP depending when you sold to your payment stage this could realise a 100% or more profit compared to what has been paid so far. Most people made money selling before completion out of property until it all crashed.


----------



## Morrismarina

shakka said:


> If you bought from Select either The Torch or The Point you were offered staged payments aka SPP or finance arrangement over 15 years aka LPP. If you were buying using SPP depending when you sold to your payment stage this could realise a 100% or more profit compared to what has been paid so far. Most people made money selling before completion out of property until it all crashed.


The 15 year LPP was NOT available from Select when purchasing at The Point.


----------



## fightback

Dubai_Steve said:


> Mackie sold one of his 2 torch units in 2008 for AED 1550 PSF. I will get back to you with figures for naz UK later.


Just banter Steve? Hope you not upset? Feeling Harassed? If people made a profit I am pleased for them truely. We all went into this investment with the hope of making a profit.:cheers:


----------



## fightback

*Boring*

This site is now boring. Everyone is directed here with a grievance against Select. Its just a dumping ground. For the latest excitement see
Dubai Steve's new pictures on WESTAVENUE!

And Bay Central construction updates, Chase the excitement people!
:banana::banana:


----------



## Dubai_Steve

^^ John, your posts are boring and repetitive, that's why everyone stopped bothering with this forum, including the admins.

If you have a genuine problem, seek legal advice or talk to High Times' (read Pro Bono's) brother who is a hot shot lawyer.


----------



## fightback

*GET A JOB!*



Dubai_Steve said:


> ^^ John, your posts are boring and repetitive, that's why everyone stopped bothering with this forum, including the admins.
> 
> If you have a genuine problem, seek legal advice or talk to High Times' (read Pro Bono's) brother who is a hot shot lawyer.


I am not Jonnnyinspain or scoobudubai I am fightback!:bash:


----------



## Dubai_Steve

OK Gavin goodluck


----------



## fightback

Thanks for info - good to see we all still fighting them!


----------



## Mistermark

fightback said:


> Still awaiting reply from their solicitors :bash:


Let me guess... You're _still_ waiting for a reply from their solicitors? What you gonna do now? More empty threats on a forum they don't even read?

Eventually the penny will drop: Dubai is a lawless state run on a system of patronage. Unless you're connected to the Emirati royals and other wealthy families, you have no rights, and there's no redress under the law.


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## scoobudubai

Mistermark said:


> Let me guess... You're _still_ waiting for a reply from their solicitors? What you gonna do now? More empty threats on a forum they don't even read?
> 
> Eventually the penny will drop: Dubai is a lawless state run on a system of patronage. Unless you're connected to the Emirati royals and other wealthy families, you have no rights, and there's no redress under the law.


I think you need to be a bit more sympathetic.
In our opinion what you say is nevertheless 100pct accurate.
We know someone who was in contact with The Legal Group 2 years ago and they were very encouraging. When contacted again recently they were equally encouraging about getting money back from Select using the legal system in Dubai. However when quizzed TLG could not confirm that a single penny had been won and gained from Select -ever- through the legal system in Dubai.
We know another party who succeeded in the arbitration court only to have the case lost in the High Court for no good reason - at this point these Torch investors lost all of their investment, and about 100k in legal fees leaving them devastated.


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## unknownpleasures

TLG have been going around for years claiming to have won. This shows they have done nothing and it was out there being pushed on this forum by a few. I feel sorry for any investor caught up in this mess of having placed trust in a developer to build. To pay developers and then be ripped off by thousands for only pursuing their rights legally would be no doubt devastating.


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## Impy

*IS THIS THE PLOT IN FRONT OF THE TORCH ?*

March 27 2014 - Select Group launches new development 
The Residences at Marina Gate is latest luxury flagship development from Select Group
Dubai: Dubai based property developer, Select Group, announces a new development for Dubai Marina - the Residences Marina at Gate. Occupying one of the Marina's last remaining plots, the new development represents a final opportunity to purchase luxury waterfront property in one of the most desirable communities in UAE.

Select Group's CEO, Rahail Aslam said, "We are proud to announce our latest residential development project, The Residences at Marina Gate. The AED 3 billion the three tower project represents our tenth, eleventh and twelve residential development in the Marina and with such a prime positioned piece of land it looks set to become the most sought after address in the Marina area".

Marking the northern entrance to the towering marina community, The Residences at Marina Gate is a triumvirate of residential towers at the original gateway to Dubai Marina. The development will make a 'piece du resistance' addition to the Select Group's already budgeoning UAE portfolio. 


Aslam continued, "Marina Gate overlooks the Marina, the sea or the cityscape and is one of the last available locations on the waterfront of Dubai Marina. Therefore, it represents an exclusive opportunity to purchase a new property in this prestigious location".


With sales commencing in April 2014, the launch of The Residences Marina Gate is again evidence of Select Group's commitment to the Dubai property market and their dedication to providing quality developments to investors and consumers alike.


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## torchowner

Impy said:


> March 27 2014 - Select Group launches new development
> The Residences at Marina Gate is latest luxury flagship development from Select Group
> Dubai: Dubai based property developer, Select Group, announces a new development for Dubai Marina - the Residences Marina at Gate. Occupying one of the Marina's last remaining plots, the new development represents a final opportunity to purchase luxury waterfront property in one of the most desirable communities in UAE.
> 
> Select Group's CEO, Rahail Aslam said, "We are proud to announce our latest residential development project, The Residences at Marina Gate. The AED 3 billion the three tower project represents our tenth, eleventh and twelve residential development in the Marina and with such a prime positioned piece of land it looks set to become the most sought after address in the Marina area".
> 
> Marking the northern entrance to the towering marina community, The Residences at Marina Gate is a triumvirate of residential towers at the original gateway to Dubai Marina. The development will make a 'piece du resistance' addition to the Select Group's already budgeoning UAE portfolio.
> 
> 
> Aslam continued, "Marina Gate overlooks the Marina, the sea or the cityscape and is one of the last available locations on the waterfront of Dubai Marina. Therefore, it represents an exclusive opportunity to purchase a new property in this prestigious location".
> 
> 
> With sales commencing in April 2014, the launch of The Residences Marina Gate is again evidence of Select Group's commitment to the Dubai property market and their dedication to providing quality developments to investors and consumers alike.


Originally Posted by torchowner View Post 
True Blue & Dubai_Steve;

Marina Gate not selling and could get cancelled by the most respected developer in Dubai Marina!!! Please read comments below by the CEO of Select:


Select Group said on Monday it has hired the main contractor for its AED500m ($136m) for its No. 9 tower development in Dubai Marina.

Select, the largest private developer in Dubai Marina, said it has signed an agreement with Transemirates Contracting (TEC) as the official construction partner of their ninth residential tower in the Marina area.

The company also announced that agreements have been made with both National Engineering Bureau (NEB) and Draw Link Group for architectural and interior design services on the project.

Sales for No.9 were opened in January, and sold out within a few weeks of launch. The project includes more than 200 one, two and three-bedroom apartments as well as several penthouses.

Select Group's CEO, Rahail Aslam said: "The successful sales of our No.9 development demonstrate that the Dubai property market is continuing its strong growth levels.

"Trusted developers delivering well designed properties in prime areas are in strong demand, particularly in the Dubai Marina since there is a constrained supply of new properties.

TEC general manager Helmi Aladham said: "After much exhaustive negotiation it's a pleasure to be selected as the main contractor and we look forward to delivering a great project within all agreed timelines."

NEB Executive Director Jamil Jadallah added: "It's been an interesting ten years in Dubai, however it's good to back in a more buoyant market and assisting such a respected developer as the Select Group to deliver their projects."

Select Group said it has already delivered nearly 3,000 units with a further 2,000 units to be delivered in the next 12 months.

Following the announcement of their flagship development, The Residences at Dubai Marina Gate in March, two other projects - West Avenue and Select's five star 320 room Intercontinental Hotel Dubai Marina - are set for handover in Q2 and Q4 respectively. 

Join the Discussion

Disclaimer:The view expressed here by our readers are not necessarily shared by Arabian Business, its employees, sponsors or its advertisers. 

Please post responsibly. Commenter Rules 

Posted by: 
Monday, 21 July 2014 8:59 AM[UAE] - 
Select group as a respected developer! Just speak with owners of The Point, The Torch and Bay Central some of the towers developed and handed over by the respected developer. 
torchowner está en línea ahora Report Post


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## profit hunter

*UAE Investors Win £1.5m Failed Development Case*

UAE Investors Win £1.5m Failed Development Case
September 15, 2014 By Jim Atkins
UAE Investors Win Failed Development Case

inShare
Share
Disgruntled investors who lost £50 million when a planned homes development in the United Arab Emirates failed have won a landmark court case for compensation.
Developer Khoie Properties took the money as deposits on homes that were to be built as The La Hoya Bay Residences in Ras-al-Khaimah between 2006 and 2008.
Around 700 investors staked the cash for the 1,000 homes planned for the resort.
None were built although the developer, Frank Khoie, bought one plot of land for the resort but handed over a £9 million cheque that bounced as payment for two further plots in 2009.
In the UAE, passing a dud cheque is a criminal offence. Khoie was subsequently jailed for a year for writing the cheque.
Landmark case
The development has never started. Khoie claimed the government refused to connect the land to an electricity supply, so he could not begin construction.
The case has passed through three courts and Khoie has lost each hearing.
Now, a class action by 35 investors has won an execution claim that means they can catalogue Khoie’s assets and sell them to meet their claim of £1.5 million compensation plus costs.
The legal firm leading the challenge, Judicare, claim this is the first case property investors seeking compensation for lost deposits have won in the UAE and that a precedent has been set for future claims.
“This is great news for property investors,” said chief executive Neil Heaney. “The court has clearly told developers in the UAE that if they have failed to build property for which they have collected a deposit that they must reimburse the cash.
Cancelled projects
“The decision is a huge boost for investors wondering what they need to do to try and secure the return of their money.”
Heaney alleges Khoie has done everything he can to delay the legal action and his claim that he could not build because of the electricity supply issue was found not to be true by the courts.
Lawyers for the investors in the case are now tracking Khoie’s assets and have threatened to take further legal action if the company is not worth enough to repay the deposits and costs.
The UAE government estimates around 220 property development projects were cancelled during the credit crisis, leading to a massive fall in prices which the country is only just recovering from.
Many of the developers fled the country and left investors millions of pounds out of pocket.
- See more at: http://www.iexpats.com/uae-investors-win-1-5m-failed-development-case/#sthash.DwPY3RIo.dpuf


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## The night

*legal action against select property*

Our legal firm in UK needs independent witnesses to support us when we take Select Property to the UK courts. If you can contribute any evidence to support us please PM me


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## The Investigators

*Select Group and Rahail Aslam*

Anyone having Issues or Contract Breaches with Select Group, Select Property Rahail Aslam or Adam Price please contact me by private message.

Thank you.


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## The Investigators

*Select Group*



The night said:


> Our legal firm in UK needs independent witnesses to support us when we take Select Property to the UK courts. If you can contribute any evidence to support us please PM me


Anyone having Issues or Contract Breaches with Select Group, Select Property Rahail Aslam or Adam Price please contact me by private message.

Thank you.


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## The Investigators

*Select Group Rahail Aslam and Adam Price Select Property UK*

Anyone having Issues or Contract Breaches with Select Group, Select Property Rahail Aslam or Adam Price please contact me by private message.

Thank you.


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## thetravelbug

*SelectProperty (Bulgaria)*

Sorry if this is not relevant to this forum but internet searches brought me here when looking for information on select property. I have been asked by a (former) client of theirs to look into what has happened to his purchase of an apartment in Bulgaria. Money was sent many years ago, many delays and eventually developer went under/disappeared.....purchase meant to be transferred to a different apartment block...nothing happened...money paid for furniture pack......

Apartment block now completed, people living there etc....but original client any thousands out of pocket and no apartment.


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## ianthy

There are a number of legal cases ongoing against Select. If you search on skyscraper you should find a contact. Best of luck as you are dealing with a very dishonest organisation.


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## The night

*CONGRATULATIONS*

Quote:
It is with great pleasure that we able to announce that the Torch Tower Owners Association has become the first Fully Operational building to become legally registered in Dubai !

We have already opened the new Torch Tower Owners Association bank accounts, finalised our audits and we are in the process of transferring all necessary funds, insurance, AMC technical and service contracts along with all relevant governmental documents and titles across into the Torch Tower Owners Association name.

We would especially like to thank RERA for their support, the OA Board Chairman Mr Ahmad Sacca and all board members Mr Marco Signorini, Dr Nillie Teymouri, Mr Craig Rheuben, Mr Marwan Al Hashimi, Ms Iliana Dimitrova & Mr Nicky Coetzee, who have worked tirelessly over the last few months with Kingfield Owners Association Management Services to be able to make this happen. We would also like to thank Select Group who have been extremely supportive and instrumental at driving this process forward so that now the Torch Tower OA has become its own legal entity! 

We now have our RERA certificate and we are very proud of what everyone has worked so hard to achieve. 

__________________










     


Dubai_Steve View Public Profile Send a private message to Dubai_Steve Find More Posts by Dubai_Steve Add Dubai_Steve to Your Contacts








 December 2nd, 2015, 02:14 AM #*17383* The night 
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 61 
Likes (Received): 2



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Dubai_Steve*  
_Also:_

YES DUBAI STEVE, YOU SHOULD BE VERY PROUD OF WHAT SELECT GROUP HAS WORKED SO HARD TO ACHIEVE! AN OUTSTANDING COMPANY WHO HAVE IMPRESSED SO MANY WITH THEIR HIGH ETHICAL STANDARDS, A COMPANY WHO HAVE TREATED ALL THEIR CLIENTS WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT AND FAIRNESS.
RAHAIL ASLAM, PAUL BRADY, GYLES BESWICK, MARK LITTLEWOOD. THESE ARE THE INDIVIDUALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LEADING SELECT GROUP TO ADOPT THE MORAL HIGH GROUND IN BUSINESS. AN EXAMPLE TO SO MANY ENTREPENUERS IN BUSINESS TODAY. ETHICAL STANDARDS ARE THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY WITH SELECT GROUP. A REMARKABLE ACCOUNT OF RAHAIL’S RAGS TO RICHES TALE IS ALL OVER THE NET. A NARRATIVE BEYOND DESCRIPTION! IT DOES BRING A TEAR TO ONES EYE. IT IS ALSO IMMEDIATELY APPARENT THAT NO ONE DESERVES TO BE IN THE SUNDAY TIMES TOP 100 RICH LIST MORE THAN THIS AVANT-GARDE PHILANTHROPIST FROM MANCHESTER. HIS INNOVATIVE BUSINESS PRACTICES ARE UNPARALLELED!

YES SELECT STEVE, ONCE AGAIN,, CONGRATUALTIONS TO RAHAIL AND THE CREW WHO HAVE BEEN RELENTLESS IN DRIVING THIS PROCESS FORWARD. TELL IT TO THE INVESTORS, TELL IT TO THE ARABS, TELL TO THE ARMY BUT MOST OF ALL “TELL IT TO THE MARINES 















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## The night

Originally Posted by *hawki*  
_You have failed to see what I'm sure the majority here can see- I've paid on time every time for the past ten years and put up with all the sh1t these people have thrown at us during this time !!! I asked for a bit of understanding thats all! I assume that you are on the payroll with Select!!_
Yes Hawki, 

Dubai Steve is not one person, Dubai Steve is a group of Select employees monitoring this site. Look at Dubai Steve's join date and the number of posts he has submitted (8524). Surely you don't think that one person has been sitting here for 10 years supporting everything Select says or does because he has nothing else to do. I see that you too joined in 2005 and have submitted 83 posts. I'm sorry to say that if in December 2015 you are unaware of Selects infiltration of this website when you have been a member for 10 years then I don't know what to say! "I'm sorry" I think is the most appropriate response. I hope you have not acted too much on the advice of these people? If so, then I'm sorry again! Please DO NOT under any circumstances act on advice offered by Dubai Steve! As for "asking for a bit of understanding" from them! Please?


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## The night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubai_Steve 
Reidin, Dubai’s major property data provider, said yesterday that developers supplied just 9,397 units in 2015 – compared with start-of-the-year projections from other sources that 25,000 units would be handed over. 

...

Supply will continue to be pushed back as developers respond to declining prices by delaying existing projects,” Reidin said in its report. “Fears of oversupply are exaggerated, especially given the fact that a robust and expansionary fiscal policy will continue to lead to job creation,” it said. 

While Dubai developers plan to deliver more than 25,000 new units in 2016, Reidin believes that only 31 per cent of this will materialise – or about 7,500 units, even fewer than this year’s new supply. 

“If demand continues to outstrip supply we [believe] that prices will begin to accelerate again,” Reidin said in a report.

http://www.thenational.ae/business/p...perty-data-row

Utter nonsense. 
__________________




luv2bebrown said:


> Utter nonsense.


Here's more blatant lies from Dubai Steve's boss, yes , the man himself, all the way from Manchester, Mr nice guy, and all round "man about town" spouting more porkies than ever before!
Rahail's latest press interview (includes a really flattering picture of his squint nose) when he says;

"Completing on time is paramount for us. We have obligations to people who have paid us for properties and they want the keys. Our on-time record is good, if not perfect!”

Can you believe this? What about The Torch Rahail? 3 years late and with an illegal addendum that permitted you to steal scores of apartments from investors and leave them with SFA? What about The Point? What about Bay Central? The list goes on. How you get away with this is beyond belief. But you do don't you?

You say you have obligations to people who have paid you for properties, it's a shame you did not honour those obligations. As I was told by Paul Brady, "if you don't sign the addendum you don't get the keys" I thought he was joking. He wasn't. He's still got my keys and my money. Yes Mr Brady, I'll bet you are a very happy man. Maybe your not though? Maybe you don't sleep well at night?
Maybe pigs will fly?

http://www.arabianindustry.com/cons...m-select-group-5086614/?artpno=3#.Vnm5qlLovcs


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## The night

*PAUL BRADY- A LOVELY MAN!*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *True Blue*  
_^^This is why I have no sympathy for anyone who continues to buy off plan from Select. They have no morals whatsoever. Their MO is the same on every project. Release information on ridiculous delivery timescales and promise the absolute pinnacle of luxury. Then go ahead and deliver crap between 3 and 6 years late. GUARANTEED!_


If people are still buying off-plan with Select they have obviously never looked at this website, if they have never looked at this website or considered that Select might be dodgy then they are very naïve investors, so maybe you should feel sorry for them? Nobody deserves to be ripped off whether they are naïve or not!

I have met with Paul Brady. He is without doubt the most arrogant individual I have ever come across. A bona fide psychopath who was obviously hand picked for the role he has in Select Group. We will meet again Paul, I'm very much looking forward to it, and it will be under very different circumstances I can assure you


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## Impy

*Rahail buying land*

http://gulfnews.com/business/property/picking-up-distressed-realty-assets-on-the-cheap-1.1691391


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## UAE Investor

If people are still buying off-plan with Select they have obviously never looked at this website said:


> Maybe they don,t speak English?
> 
> :cheers:


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## ianthy

UAE Investor said:


> Maybe they don,t speak English?
> 
> :cheers:


You are so right - who in their right mind would buy from Select. With the number of projects that they have delivered, if their product and CS was top notch they would not need to do any marketing for new developments as past customers would be queuing up. Also there are plenty of completed developments delivering rent from day 1, so why would anyone buy off plan from Select? Plain crazy!


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## Impy

*Rahail Aslam interview*

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/towe...oup-ceo-rahail-aslam-610345.html#.V-FsjYgrLIU


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