# LONDON | DLR, Underground, Tramlink



## Tubeman

Here’s all of the current Stocks of train operating on London Underground, in chronological order of introduction:

A60 or A-Stock dating back to 1960, in use on the Metropolitan Line (8 cars) and East London Line (4 cars) :










1967 Stock of the Victoria Line (8 cars), fully automatically driven from its inception:










C69/C77 Stocks (C-Stocks) of the Hammersmith & City and Circle Lines, and also the Edgware Road to Wimbledon District Line service (6 cars). Built in two batches in 1969 and 1977 with minimal differences between the two:










1972 Stock, Bakerloo Line (7 cars) :










1973 Stock, Piccadilly Line (6 cars) :










D78 Stock, District Line (6 cars). The Last stock of train to be refurbished, the first units are being delivered back by the end of this year. The bare aluminium body seen here is how all of the above stocks appeared before their refurbishment during the 1990’s :










1992 Stock, Central Line (8 cars). Fully automatic, currently only the Victoria and Central Lines are (although all newer stocks have the capability, it’s the signalling that needs upgrading) :










1995 Stock, Northern Line (6 cars) :










1996 Stock, Jubilee Line (6 cars, soon to be 7) :










Source:

http://tube.tfl.gov.uk/content/faq/trains/astock.asp


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## Tubeman

Here's some older stocks which have graced London Underground...

1959 Stock which I used to drive up and down the Northern Line until they were finally replaced by the 1995 Stock in 1999:



















The gloomy interior:










The Guard at the back of a 1959 stock waiting to close the doors and give the driver the Bell. This single train of 1959 stock was repainted in beautiful 1930's maroon and cream livery towards the end of its life... I have myself been Guard and Driver on this train several times:










The repainted unit at my local station, Angel:










Disappearing into the tunnel at Morden, not to re-appear for 17.5 miles!:










The Guards' Panel... It was at the front of the last carriage and as the Guard you just raised a bar across the gangway to protect yourself from the public:










Source:

http://www.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/1959tubeStock.html

The beautifully designed R-Stock of the District Line, they survived until the early 1980's before being replaced by the D-Stock. These used to rattle past my house when I was a kid and probably are to blame for my love of the Tube and consequently my career choice!:



















The CO/CP Stock which was basically an R-Stock painted red... they were withdrawn before the R-Stock, but I still just remember them. Look at the way the train "flares" out at the bottom of the cars at platform level... one of the many quirky little Art Deco touches that made these trains so beautiful:










1938 Stock, worked on numerous lines but ended its days on the Bakeloo Line where it survived until the 1980s. It was similar to the 1959 Stock with the obvious exception of it being bright red, but closer inspection reveals fine Art Deco detailing that was left off the 1959 stock:



















Its withdrawal from London Underground in the 1980s wasn't the end, though... It lives on on the Isle of Wight in the English Channel where it is the train of choice on their railway:


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## Vertigo

Great thread! I remember that old stock on the Northern Line, it was indeed quite gloomy.

My favorite stock is the 1992 stock, with its large windows. Too bad they didn't keep that feature for the 1995/1996 stock.


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## Tubeman

Vertigo said:


> My favorite stock is the 1992 stock, with its large windows. Too bad they didn't keep that feature for the 1995/1996 stock.


I agree... Apparently it was because Customer feedback on the 1992 Stock was that people disliked the "Hall of Mirrors" effect when looking at your reflection in the opposite window. Pretty daft if you ask me; it means you can't see much when above ground as the now flat windows are much smaller in height.


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## superchan7

The 1992 stock looks like Sci-fi. And the 1970s tube stock must've looked very impressive and futuristic back then. What a unique shape...too bad the ceiling height is so low! I kept hitting my head =(
London Underground has a lot of character, despite some of the cut/cover stock looking very old, like tin boxes (I have a thing against those New-York-style trains). Even though I'm more used to cutting-edge (bleeding edge?) systems like Hong Kong, I found myself wanting to ride the Underground as often as I could when I was in London this past summer.

Who makes the trains, by the way?


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## Tubeman

The different stocks were built by various companies; Cravens (in Gloucester I think) built the A60 Stock, most if not all of the other older stocks were built by Metro-Camell in Birmingham. The 1992 Stock was built by BREL (British Rail Engineering Ltd) in Yorkshire (either Doncaster or Sheffield, I forget) and the 1995 and 1996 stocks were built by GEC Alsthom in Birmingham, who bought Metro-Camell a few years back.

They were refurbished by various companies, some being transported as far as Scotland for refurbishment! The Refurbishment has made a huge difference to the trains, so much so that most customers assume them to be totally new trains... I'll try to hunt down some before/after photos of the interiors as before refirbishment the trains were grey and gloomy inside... pretty unpleasant.

One thing's for sure, none were built anywhere near London!


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## Tubeman

Ok a before and after... The Piccadilly Line 1973 Stock refurbished around 5 years ago by Bombardier in Doncaster...

Before... Grotty:



















After... Fabulous:





































The main innovations are cream (as opposed to battleship grey and canary yellow) interiors, Piccadilly Line Blue and bright yellow grabrails (as opposed to bare metal), windows cut into car ends for better security, scrolling dot matrix destination above each bank of seats, new luggage areas with padded "perch seats", new vinyl flooring (as opposed to old wooden slats), Digitised Voice Announcement (DVA), and an exterior paint job to corporate livery.

All other stocks have been refurbished to the same much more cheerful standards, except the D78 stock which is just about to start being delivered back to us refurbished.


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## Tubeman

superchan7 said:


> the 1970s tube stock must've looked very impressive and futuristic back then.


The Victoria Line must have been astounding when it first opened; the first section opened in 1968 and has always been fully automatic. It reaches speeds of up to 100kmh and as you say the simple but futuristic design of the trains must have seemed really space-age in the late 1960's compared to the rattly old trains that were still clinging on from the 1920's and 30's.

How the 1967 Stock looked before refurbishment... Because they are unpainted aluminium when they were brand new they were really silvery so must have looked very futuristic:


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## mrmoopt

Do the London automated stock run by SECAM/ATO? [The one that MTR (Hong Kong) runs on....

Could anyone enlighten me with the details of ATO vs ATP?

What are the costs involved in setting up a signalling system like that? Would it be too costly to setup in a sytem such as Melbourne or Sydney?


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## Tubeman

cal_t said:


> Do the London automated stock run by SECAM/ATO? [The one that MTR (Hong Kong) runs on....
> 
> Could anyone enlighten me with the details of ATO vs ATP?
> 
> What are the costs involved in setting up a signalling system like that? Would it be too costly to setup in a sytem such as Melbourne or Sydney?


I have no idea as to the ins and outs of the ATO system suffice to say I presume that the Victoria and Central Lines employ very different systems as one dates back to the 1960's and the other to the 1990's.

ATO = Automatic Train Operation
ATP = Automatic Train Protection

ATO is a complete system for automatically operating trains, which by definition includes ATP to prevent trains from driving into each other.

ATP would be found on lines which still are manually driven, but where human error is eradicated (virtually) by having the responsibility for responding to signals ultimately down to the ATP system... i.e. if the driver drives through a red signal, the train will automatically stops. With ATO the driver wouldn't have been driving the train in the first place.

In short, ATO lines have no visible signals to speak of as the drivers (if there are any) don't actually drive the trains. ATP lines have to have signals as the trains are manually driven, but they are associated with either signal or train (or both) borne equipment that stops the train in the event of it passing a red signal. All Metros worth their salt that aren't ATO must have ATP due to the frequency and spacing of trains... although criminally mainline railways in the UK have no ATP to speak of, causing several fatal crashes in recent years.

To totally overhaul the Melbourne Metro or Sydney Cityrail to make them ATO would cost an absolute bomb, but I think that all metros will one day be ATO. I suppose the logical way of doing it is line by line, coinciding with major track overhaul... this is the way that it is being done here in London.

The Victoria Line was built with ATO, the Central Line was converted a few years ago, and next it will be the Jubilee and Northern Lines as their trains are designed to run with ATO. The Bakerloo and Piccadilly Lines will follow when they get new trains (who knows when though?) and I presume the Sub-Surface Lines (District, Metropolitan, Circle etc Lines) will be at the back of the queue.


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## Don Pacho

Thank you for the pics. They bring me a lot of memories when I was living in London over 20 years ago.


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## ignoramus

After visiting the Transport For London's website, which is nicely designed IMO, I realized just how tight the Underground's Tunnels are. Sad, no air conditioning, but London doesn't get that hot right...

Which lines were built with bigger sized tunnels (modern day standards) and is there air conditioning in the trains running thru these tunnels? And will they have them in future?

Cause for the tighter tunnels it seems pretty unlikely from what I read that there will ever be air conditioning in the near future (10-20 years).


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## Tubeman

ignoramus said:


> After visiting the Transport For London's website, which is nicely designed IMO, I realized just how tight the Underground's Tunnels are. Sad, no air conditioning, but London doesn't get that hot right...
> 
> Which lines were built with bigger sized tunnels (modern day standards) and is there air conditioning in the trains running thru these tunnels? And will they have them in future?
> 
> Cause for the tighter tunnels it seems pretty unlikely from what I read that there will ever be air conditioning in the near future (10-20 years).


Sadly London gets horrifically hot & humid every Summer without fail; there will always be spell or two / three of 30C+ (32 or 33C is typical) every year now, and Summer before last it reached 38C with very high humidity. Down on the un-airconditioned deep-level "tube" lines which are up to 80m below ground level it get ridiculously hot when its busy, you literally need a shower after getting off.

As you can tell from the photos in the first post, some trains are the size of normal overground trains (A, C and D Stocks) whilst the others are tiny in comparison (1967, 1972, 1973, 1992, 1995 & 1996 stocks)... I'll try and find a photo of two side by side to illustrate the huge difference.

The Metropolitan and District Lines were originally built as "proper" railways (they were steam-hauled) that happened to be largely in tunnel through central London. The Hammersmith & City, East London and Circle Lines are all essentially the product of these two companies (as well as the Metropolitan and District Lines, obviously). All five lines have tunnels large enough to accommodate mainline trains that lie just below street level; they were built by using the hugely disruptive "Cut and Cover" method where basically an enormous trench was dug for the railway which was then covered back up again (usually with a road). Therefore these trains are much larger than the "Tube" stocks and I personally see no good reason whatsoever why they can't have Air Conditioning installed as there are numerous gaps in the tunnel originally built to allow steam and smoke to escape from the steam engines... the heat from the Air Con units could escape here.

The "Tube" Lines came after the "Cut and Cover" Lines (from 1890 onwards) and are bored using a tunnelling machine (Greathead Shield), hence the round tunnels "Tubes" into which the trains pretty ingeniously fit. They have a tight diameter really just to minimise the amount of tunnelling required; excavating a bored tunnel to main line train dimensions would involve easily twice the volume of spoil. There are no ventilation shafts to speak of and the tunnels are hot enough as it is not to have trains running through with Air Con units belching out heat.


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## MSPtoMKE

Really interesting thread. What an interesting job you have. thanks!


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## superchan7

Yeah, those tube tunnels are quite small...the trains barely fit, and the trains aren't that big in cross-section by metro standards!


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## Tubeman

Here's a very unique and interesting photo that illustrates how tiny the Tube Stock trains are in comparison to normal trains:










At Chiswick Park Eastbound in 1993 an unrefurbished Piccadilly Line 1973 Stock overtakes the historic electric Loco "Sarah Siddons" hauling a rake of coaches on the District line to celebrate the line's 125th birthday.

Sarah Siddons and other locos in her class hauled Metropolitan Line Trains into Buckinghamshire into the 1960's, Sarah Siddons is the only one preserved as far as I know.


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## Vertigo

LOL, nice pic.


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## nick_taylor




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## Tubeman

That's exactly the sort of photo I was trying find but couldn't, well done Nick!

Westbound Metropolitan Line Train passes a Piccadilly Line Train reversing in the terminal siding at Rayner's Lane:










The Metropolitan Line A-Stock feel bigger than the D-Stocks and C-Stocks even... I think the bodies are wider? The Metropolitan Railway was built to Great Western Railway Broad Gauge (7" as opposed to the standard 4'8"!) originally so the tunnels are significantly wider than those of the District Line.


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## mad_nick

I can understand why they were building tiny tunnels in the 1890's, but why did they continue to build small tunnels on lines built later when it was actually possible to build larger ones?
Also, why are London trains so short? According to what I've read, the 6 car trains on cut & cover lines are about 300ft and tube 6 car trains are about 350 ft.
Consider that New York's IRT platforms, which are the shortest in the system, are about 525 ft long. (BMT platforms are 615 ft and IND are 660 ft)


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## ignoramus

Justme said:


> ^ woo, don't get too carried away here. Singapore, last I heard, just got their first subway system in 1990. That's some 130 years of so after London. It amazes us, that it took so long for Singapore to finally get a metro.
> 
> Obviously, when something is so new, and so small, it is alot easier to keep it modern.
> 
> Now, I think you are being a little picky with some of your points like
> 
> * for the "mind the gap" statements. Some of the earlier lines had stations built with curved platforms. There is a gap then at some points between the train and the platform. It would be impossible now to retunnel the underground and get straight plaforms. But let's be thankful. Many of those platforms were built so long before Singapore even dreamed of a subway, let alone nice straight modern platforms.
> 
> * Year, there are pickpockets in London. One of the problems with having such a free country, is that there is crime. I know is Singapore, you can get whipped for chewing chewing gum, but these things don't happen, thankfully in London. The downside is petty crime.
> 
> * As for the doors, yes, like most of northern Europe, even the most modern of trains, you have a button to open the doors. The principle here is to keep the draft out on cold wintery days on the above ground stations which you don't have in Singapore. Why open the door and let the cold wind in, if no one is entering or exiting the car?


Hey I ain't against London's Underground or anything. Don't make it seem that way. I am only amazed by the London Underground, at such a complex system, that cannot be found anywhere in Asia because the systems are relatively younger. So don't treat my post as one which critisizes the Underground, and neither should your post. 

Singapore was only a small town 130 years ago in 1874. Its population was too small to support any subway system, if we had built it then we must have been crazy cause we have other issues far more important like poverty and housing.

And don't forget, 130 years ago Singapore was colonised by the British, so if its anyone who decided not to put in a subway, its them. No point blaming us.

Obviously when a system is new and small (80 Stations in total, Heavy and light rail) and by Asia's standards and relative to our size, it isnt that small at all.

And Singapore's first section of its metro line was opened in 1987, not 1990.

I was not being ''picky'' with the mind your gap announcements. I didnt even say that it was annoying or anything. I mentioned it because my friend said it sounded nice!!!

I didn't even say London had a lot of pickpockets, all I said was that there were a lot of posters. Thats an interesting discovery. I didnt say that meant it had a lot of or any pickpockets. Culture shock.

FOR YOUR INFORMATION, YOU DO NOT GET WHIPPED FOR chewing gum. The govt only bans the selling of gum, you can chew it here and bring it in for personal consumption. 

And Singapore is a free country may I add.

Please please dont be hostile. I didnt intend to insult the Underground or anyone. After all this is a forum, one gets to know more about another country's system thru a forum and discuss about such things right. Hope you now know more about how Singapore really is, and that WE DONT WHIP people for chewing gum! Just as I now know why the Underground has buttons on doors.

I meant no insult. Please do not get the wrong idea okay!


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## nick_taylor

ignoramus - I think you really ought to come to London to see for yourself. I think you'll be suprised of the difference between the MRT. If you don't go...you can't judge I say :yes:

The standards you speak of are also the standards that were started on the London Underground


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## ignoramus

I am just feeling a sense of culture shock cause these kinda stuff you dont see in Asia at all.

Who ever said I didnt like the Underground. I love it cause its very very extensive, and Singapore had always been looking to London when designing its rail system maps and in planning new lines. We dont even look to NY or Seoul which have extensive subway lines cause London's is the most extensive and we want to learn from your experiences.

If anyone came to Singapore they would see signs such as ''No Durians allowed'' and they may feel its a weird country. But if you understood youd realize that durians are very pungent and if brought on the trains the smell would circulate throughout the train cars.

So arent I entitled to find out more about something which is new to me? And clarify my doubts rather than simply assuming that the buttons on the doors are there because the engineers forgot how to make auto doors. wouldnt that be worse?


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## Justme

no worries mate, it just sounded like you were picking it for the sake of it. Sometimes it's hard to see what people really mean when reading just text.

:cheers:


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## ignoramus

Okay everyone please forget whatever was typed in the previous 4 or so posts. Total misunderstanding. Cleared now! Thank god!


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## ignoramus

The only thing I have against London is the terrible exchange rate. Scary. 1 pound equals 3.8 Singapore Dollars. Thats even more expensive that going to the US (US$1 equals S$1.68).

Most of my posts in here will be of the ''Is this true?'' type. Like how my friend upon arriving at Heathrow got bad service. Of course I doubt everyone gets bad service but is Heathrow's service bad (not against London or anything, tho sg's airport service is good, the service provided by our retailers are one of the worst in Asia) cause reviews so far have told of otherwise. But then again, I want to find out from a Londoner. I know its congested...


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## Justme

ignoramus said:


> The only thing I have against London is the terrible exchange rate. Scary. 1 pound equals 3.8 Singapore Dollars. Thats even more expensive that going to the US (US$1 equals S$1.68).
> 
> Most of my posts in here will be of the ''Is this true?'' type. Like how my friend upon arriving at Heathrow got bad service. Of course I doubt everyone gets bad service but is Heathrow's service bad cause reviews so far have told of otherwise. But then again, I want to find out from a Londoner. I know its congested...


The exchange rate is pretty high for the pound, which does indeed cause a few concerns for people from other country's. But as you can imagine, this doesn't affect the average British person in their every day life... unless they travel to another country, which in return, for them is quite a bargin.

Heathrow is a very old and cramp airport. The new terminal will improve on things, and yes, service can get difficult because it is so crowded and cramp. Singapore airport is so much more spacious and more relaxed, and it does seem to work like clockwork (in fact, from what I saw, a lot of things work like clockwork in Singapore). Stansted is a smaller airport and is usually more relaxed than Heathrow.

They do try hard though to keep things running smoothly at Heathrow. I remember once I turned up too late to make my flight (missed the checkin by about 5minutes) and was told I would have to buy a new ticket (one of the problems with flying on the low cost fares). I told the lady kindly at the BA desk, that the reason I just missed the checkin was that I was given directions to the wrong terminal, and Heathrow was "oh so complicated". She put me on the next flight free of charge (which was incidently 30minutes later).

The rule there is to always smile, thank the staff, give them credit for their hard work, and ask kindly if they can help, and they always do then. Usually people abuse them to no end for their own mistakes. They yell and scream at them for things that are not their fault and so they always like to help a nice friendly customer with problems.

There's a show on TV here called airport which is a "fly on the wall" doc, showing the problems they have, and there was one incident during the 9/11 tragedy when all air traffic into Britain was stopped. It obviously wasn't the fault of the airlines, but when they told their customers that their flight was cancelled because of an air traffic shutdown, they were yelled and abused by the passengers, all screaming and waving their fists. I mean, the flight staff told them it was because of the twin towers being destroyed, planes hyjacked and thousands dead, but all they could care about was their holiday in Ibiza.

Mad...


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## glickel

N-T. You really like your underground and I am glad I got you all fired-up. No question about the place and importance of the Tube in history and please avoid snid comments about my knowledge of subway systems. But why can't they widen the tunnels? 

Answer:
The Tube is already at full capacity and cannot sustain a closure of main lines
"Prohitively" expensive or costs outweigh the benefits

This is all off the top of my head, But....
Why couldn't they widen the tunnels piece by piece. Close down a section for the weekends, send in the boring machines and have it cleaned up for the Monday commute. I don't know how the underground deals with construction, and my referecne is based on Boston, where people are bused past closed down stations and in NYC where they re-route lines around construction. Of course, this would propably take many years, but I just don't think it should be so easily dismissed, especially on a site that also hosts a thread concerning a possible transrapid from Berlin to Greece.


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## Justme

@glickel, I don't know for sure, but I would assume that there are just so many tunnels already of the smaller diameter, that it would cost a fortune (and I mean a real fortune) to do this. How far could you re-bore a tunnel on a weekend before having it all cleaned up and working again Monday morning (keeping in mind you would probably have to remove (or partially remove) the boring machine each Sunday and replace it each Saturday.

Weekends are also very busy times still on the underground.

It would also cost an enormous amount of money, for a little extra head room. Not really value for money. It would be better spent building entire new lines into and out of London. You would then double capacity and it would be done quicker.

As for the transrapid between Berlin & Greece, that was really just one of those dreams that would never happen, not in a million years.


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## superchan7

Every metro in Europe I've been on has buttons to open every single door. They don't open all the doors like they do in the trains in Asian metro systems.


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## InitialD18

agree but sorta disagree ... london tube is prob one of the best systems for its age and size ... its in my opinion much better maintained than new yorks ... from a tourist point of view the history and experience makes it a tourist attraction along with the routemasters and taxi ... 

however in a commuter point of view i would pretty much preferred
the modern systems of like singapore or tokyo ... 
which offers a great network for the size of the city 
while being cleaner, more stable, newer and more efficient ... 
those delay timetables at the tube can be quite annoying ...
It would be great if the LDN's tube, Par's metro can stopped to renovate
but that would pretty much to stop the two cities ...


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## Tubeman

glickel said:


> This is all off the top of my head, But....
> Why couldn't they widen the tunnels piece by piece. Close down a section for the weekends, send in the boring machines and have it cleaned up for the Monday commute. I don't know how the underground deals with construction, and my referecne is based on Boston, where people are bused past closed down stations and in NYC where they re-route lines around construction. Of course, this would propably take many years, but I just don't think it should be so easily dismissed, especially on a site that also hosts a thread concerning a possible transrapid from Berlin to Greece.


My question is... Why?

The Tube Lines (Victoria, Piccadilly, Northern, Jubilee, Central, Bakerloo, Waterloo & City) have functioned perfectly well for over 100 years in some cases... Why spend BILLIONS of pounds widening the tunnels because they feel a bit small to Tourists? 

Of course if they were built today there'd be much wider tunnels, emergency walkways, ventilation shafts, air conditioning etc etc etc... but they weren't and ultimately they transport millions of passengers PER DAY without incident or accident. The busiest lines (Northern, Central) transport around 600,000 passengers EACH every day... to close the lines down in order to widen them for no real good reason would spew 600,000 people onto the buses and other lines every day. 

Believe me, we aren't talking about shutting the line down on Friday Night and re-opening it on Monday morning... It would take MONTHS if not YEARS of continuous closure to re-bore each line; it would be easier to just build a new line to be honest.


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## MSPtoMKE

If it aint broke, don't fix it!


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## Tubeman

MSPtoMKE said:


> If it aint broke, don't fix it!


:yes:


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## spsmiler

Vertigo said:


> Great thread! I remember that old stock on the Northern Line, it was indeed quite gloomy.
> 
> My favorite stock is the 1992 stock, with its large windows. Too bad they didn't keep that feature for the 1995/1996 stock.


I live on the central Line - the "old" trains you mention above were built in two batches - 1959 and 1962.

The 1959 batch went to the Piccadilly line, and after the 1975 trains were introduced were transfered to the Northern Line, although for a while they also worked on the Bakerloo Line.

The 1962 batch went to the Central Line. These were replaced by the 1992 trains, which are smoother & faster but have significantly fewer and less comfortable seats.

On outer sections of line where station distances are greater these trains take on a different character and really seem to fly - I understand they can exceed 60mph (approx 100kmh) - and yes, their higher speed is noticable (but in a good way as they ride well even at high speed). Its a shame that they can only really reach these speeds at a few locations. 

One reason why they need to travel so fast is because the Epping branch is more akin to a country railway than an urban metro, and with the higher speeds they could shave 5 minutes off the timetable. Untill the late 1940's this route was operated by mainline steam trains, and even now beyond Debden you travel through green fields onto the country town of Epping, which, incidentally is well outside of the M25 Motorway ("freeway", in American English) which encircles London. Part of the Hainault loop also passes through green fields and if you happen to be looking at the right time you will even see a farm! Other views from the railway include people's back gardens - a few of which boast swimming pools. Especially the section between Roding Valley and Grange Hill.

Simon


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## spsmiler

superchan7 said:


> The 1992 stock looks like Sci-fi. And the 1970s tube stock must've looked very impressive and futuristic back then. What a unique shape...too bad the ceiling height is so low! I kept hitting my head =(
> London Underground has a lot of character, despite some of the cut/cover stock looking very old, like tin boxes (I have a thing against those New-York-style trains). Even though I'm more used to cutting-edge (bleeding edge?) systems like Hong Kong, I found myself wanting to ride the Underground as often as I could when I was in London this past summer.
> 
> Who makes the trains, by the way?



As a schoolboy travelling to school on the 1972 Mk1 and Mk11 trains on the Northern Line (these being more or less visually identical to the 1967 Victoria Line trains) I *very much* saw these trains as being *space age*. Even now they still retain that futuristic look. (in my eyes - I am 45) 

I share your views on New York's Subway trains.

Simon


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## spsmiler

Tubeman said:


> Sadly London gets horrifically hot & humid every Summer without fail; there will always be spell or two / three of 30C+ (32 or 33C is typical) every year now, and Summer before last it reached 38C with very high humidity. Down on the un-airconditioned deep-level "tube" lines which are up to 80m below ground level it get ridiculously hot when its busy, you literally need a shower after getting off.
> 
> As you can tell from the photos in the first post, some trains are the size of normal overground trains (A, C and D Stocks) whilst the others are tiny in comparison (1967, 1972, 1973, 1992, 1995 & 1996 stocks)... I'll try and find a photo of two side by side to illustrate the huge difference.
> 
> The Metropolitan and District Lines were originally built as "proper" railways (they were steam-hauled) that happened to be largely in tunnel through central London. The Hammersmith & City, East London and Circle Lines are all essentially the product of these two companies (as well as the Metropolitan and District Lines, obviously). All five lines have tunnels large enough to accommodate mainline trains that lie just below street level; they were built by using the hugely disruptive "Cut and Cover" method where basically an enormous trench was dug for the railway which was then covered back up again (usually with a road). Therefore these trains are much larger than the "Tube" stocks and I personally see no good reason whatsoever why they can't have Air Conditioning installed as there are numerous gaps in the tunnel originally built to allow steam and smoke to escape from the steam engines... the heat from the Air Con units could escape here.
> 
> The "Tube" Lines came after the "Cut and Cover" Lines (from 1890 onwards) and are bored using a tunnelling machine (Greathead Shield), hence the round tunnels "Tubes" into which the trains pretty ingeniously fit. They have a tight diameter really just to minimise the amount of tunnelling required; excavating a bored tunnel to main line train dimensions would involve easily twice the volume of spoil. There are no ventilation shafts to speak of and the tunnels are hot enough as it is not to have trains running through with Air Con units belching out heat.



Tubeman, 

I agree with your comments regarding air conditioning. I wish the (air-con) situation could be otherwise! At times its so hot down there that if it were animals being carried (and not humans) then the transport operator would be prosecuted for cruelty!!!

The 1992 stock on Central Line have additional fans which blow air behind the seated passengers but oh! are they noisy!!! Also, many people leave discarded newspapers over them - blocking the airflow.

But, in the winter these trains can be cold, especially because of the (in my view) silly ruling that all doors must be opened by the driver at outdoor stations. These trains were built with passenger door controls (pdc) - both to open and close the doors - and it is a source of great annoyance that London Underground management have now arbitarily decreed that these pdc must not be used - at the pain of a driver loosing their job, I understand. Esepcially in weather such as we are experiencing right now (its a cold, frosty evening) passengers would benefit very much from not having a blast of icy cold air at every open air station. The situation at termini is even worse, as trains will stand in the platform with all doors open whilst the driver walks to the other end of the platform and then sits in the cab whilst awaiting the correct departure time.

Of course its not your fault that this is the situation and please dont take my strong views personally.

btw, I know about the "selective door opening" system fiited to many other trains, which means that only one (or 2?) doors per car is left open at terminal stations - its a shame that the 1992 stock does not appear to have this too.

Simon


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## spsmiler

mad_nick said:


> I can understand why they were building tiny tunnels in the 1890's, but why did they continue to build small tunnels on lines built later when it was actually possible to build larger ones?
> Also, why are London trains so short? According to what I've read, the 6 car trains on cut & cover lines are about 300ft and tube 6 car trains are about 350 ft.
> Consider that New York's IRT platforms, which are the shortest in the system, are about 525 ft long. (BMT platforms are 615 ft and IND are 660 ft)


Nick, 

you ask a very good question regarding tunnel sizes.

As you surmise, the smaller "tube" tunnels were originally built from the 1890's, onwards.

The Victoria Line *should* have been built for larger trains - the original plans which were drawn up in the 1940's (during the war) were for it to be built for "full size" trains. Its my understanding the the treasury wanted economies. As a nation we could have afforded the larger tunnels but were not prepared to pay for them. Subsequent overcrowding on the Victoria line proved that this was a false economy.

As for other lines, well the only other "new" sections of Underground railway have been extensions to existing services. 1975 Piccadily Line to Heathrow Airport and 1979 Jubilee line both include sections of pre-existing "tube" railway.

As for train lengths, the Northern Line extensions built in the 1930's were designed for 9-car underground trains, and although some such trains did run they meant that at stations in central London the last two cars on a train remained in the tunnel! Because of WW2 the 9-car scheme was suspended never fully implemented. Nevertheless some stations still retain the longer station platforms - especially those which are below ground.

As for the sub-surface lines, well at one time trains were even shorter than they are now! Especially the Circle Line which used to feature 5 car trains! Actually though, the main section of the District Line did use 8 car trains during the rush hours (6 car at other times) but I understand that at some stations the trains only just fitted the platforms. Nowadays the line may use 6 car trains but in length these 6 cars are roughly similar to 7 older, shorter cars.

I agree that longer trains would be a good idea, especially for the C stock trains which for most of their area of operation use stations which could easily accept 7 or even 8 car trains. BUT, there is a serious constraint. The western side of the Circle Line has three stations (Bayswater, Notting Hill Gate and Paddington) with shorter platforms, and here the maximum train length is 6 cars! Otherwise the trains probabaly would be longer... These stations are used by C stock trains running on the Circle Line and the District Line's Edgware Road - Wimbledon service. Similar trains also run on the hammersmith & City line between Hammersmith (Met) and Whitechapel / Barking via Baker Street.

Of course extending the station platforms would be the optimum solution - it would significantly benefit much of the routes served by the C stock trains - and probably if the money was available this would be done. As ever, money (or lack of) is the primary issue. Funding is a minefield of a topic, it could even be extended to include the Iraqi situation (the cost of our troops being out there) but its not a topic I intend to discuss in great detail here. Suffice to say that when money was more easily available the government put it into roads and when the local authority known as "The City of London" (it covers the square mile in the heart of the financial area) said it wanted to invest money to improve Bank station (it was in an appalling mess at the time) the national Government threatened severe financial sanctions - not only if they did this but even if they "went public" with that information.

Simon

(information source - a "Q&A" talk where a former Lord Mayor of London was the guest).


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## hkskyline

*London Underground*

*Station Upgrades*

*Kings Cross St Pancras Tube Station Western Ticket Hall*

Opened: 28th of May, 2006.

This was built to cope with the extra demand placed on the Tube station due to the opening of a new Eurostar services from Kings Cross St Pancras. This ticket hall primarily serves the Circle, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan sub-surface lines.

The ticket hall is of cut-and-cover construction underneath part of the historic St Pancras station, and therefore there is a contrast between the red bricked mainline station and the modern white and glass finishes of the new ticket hall. The ticket hall also lead to the opening of a new street entrances for the tube station on the busy Euston Road. The ticket hall is connected to the refurbished St Pancras station via brick arches, and to the original main ticket hall of the tube station (which itself has been refurbished and has new entrances) via a new passageway, all of which is protected from the elements. Passengers enter the refurbished platforms through ticket gates, down stairs on both sides and then enter a spacious area between the platforms. Additionally, there are lifts for the disabled and those with children and shopping.

New Main Ticket Hall Entrances:

freakmarky at Flickr









New Western Ticket Hall Entrances:

Last Rounds at Flickr









Kake Pugh at Flickr









New London Underground Western Ticket Hall:










James Cridland at Flickr









Refurbished Sub-Surface platforms:










*Heathrow Terminal 5 Station*

Opened: 27th of March, 2008.

This station was built to serve the brand new Heathrow Terminal 5, providing connections direct into Central London on the Piccadilly line and Heathrow Express/Connect services.

The station is shared between the two different services, but they are clearly divided by a glass wall. There are two terminating platforms for Heathrow Express/Connect, and two platforms for the Piccadilly line (one exiting, the other alighting). The station is connected to terminal 5 through a deep glass concourse with escalators and lifts. It was built and funded by BAA, therefore it is not staffed by LU but by airport staff themselves.

Piccadilly line Ticket hall:










Piccadilly line platforms:










*Shepherd's Bush Tube Station*

Opened: 5th of October, 2008.

This station originally opened in 1900. This station had been in a bad state for many years, it was dark and dingy at platform level, had poor access for disabled and the ticket hall was cramped. When plans for Westfield came to fruition it became clear that the station needed to be expanded. TfL said that the escalators needed to be replaced as they were at the end of their life cycle, and they should be replaced before the new shopping centre opens this year. So it was decided to close the station for eight months and at the same time carry out the comprehensive refurbishment.

The refurbished station features a tall glass ticket hall (again, rather uninspiring) with a large entrance opening out onto the shopping centre and the Overground station, and a rather small entrance opening out onto the local area... There are new escalators (that don't sound or look particularly new), that lead to a re-tiled tunnel onto the (also re-tiled) platforms. The tunnels and platforms are tiled in boring white tiles that harp back to the CLR (Central London Railway) days of the Central line, where there were plain white tiles at every station. A video onboard a westbound train entering the station, and then views of the platforms and ticket hall can be found here.

Old entrance:










Old platforms:










New street entrance:










New main entrance:










New ticket hall:










New escalators:










Re-tiled passageways:










Still unfinished platform:










*Wood Lane Tube Station*

Opened: 12th of October, 2008.

Another station opened to service the Westfield Shopping Centre. It is located on the Hammersmith & City line between Shepherd's Bush Market and Latimer Road. It is the first LU station to not have any staffed ticket facilities. I don't know who it was funded by.

The station was designed by Ian Ritchie Architects (the same person who designed Bermondsey tube station) and is located only 250m away from White City Central line station. It features a large ticket hall with mustard coloured shiny panels on the ceilings. Once passing through the ticket gates, there are stairs on the left to the eastbound platforms. To get to the westbound platforms, passengers must pass underneath the brick arches that support the tracks, the ceiling here also has metallic mustard coloured panels. The platforms are side platforms (like most over ground stations on LU) and are unpolished and metallic. They feature windows every once in a while that give an outside view.

Entrance:










Ticket hall:










Stairs to eastbound platform:










Underpass to westbound platform:










Platforms:










*Kings Cross St Pancras Tube Station Northern Ticket Hall*

Opened: 29th of November, 2009.

A new 'Tube ticket hall' was opened on the 29th of November providing direct access from the new section of St Pancras which houses the Thameslink, Midland Mainline, and Ebbsfleet (future Javelin) services to the deep level underground lines (Northern, Piccadilly, Victoria). It also provides quick access to the new Kings Cross concourse set to open in the future. 

The new ticket hall is in a similar style to the aforementioned sub-surface ticket hall and features a bank of four escalators leading to new deep level passageways to the deep level lines. The passageways link to the opposite end of the platform to the current passageways meaning the platforms will be more evenly loaded. These new ticket halls mean that Kings Cross now has 4 ticket halls for the tube station alone, double what it had before the works started.

New 'tube' ticket hall:

alicephilippa at Flickr









New escalators:

alicephilippa at Flickr









tompagenet at Flickr









New passageways to deep level lines:

alicephilippa at Flickr









alexbrn at Flickr









*Train Updates*

*New Victoria line Trains (London Underground 2009 Stock)*

First Passenger Journey: 21st July, 2009.

These trains are needed to replace the current 1967 Stock, which as the name implies, are 40 years old and are the oldest deep level trains in service on LU. The new 8-car trains have better acceleration and braking, are longer (only by 3m), wider (making them the widest "tube" trains), and slightly faster. This, along with a more up-to-date ATO (Automatic Train Operation) system, will allow the Victoria line to carry 20% more passengers than present. The trains also feature better forced ventilation, facilities for the disabled and passenger information. The interior is typical of LU with moquette fabric over cushioned seats, coloured poles, everything is colour coordinated with the line colour (light blue). The first train has began passenger service for evaluation, but they have not properly entered service yet.

*Current trains (London Underground 1967 Stock)*

Exterior

bloophoenix at Flickr









Interior

inglian at Flickr









Video











*New Trains (B07/09 Stock)*

Exterior

darquati at Flickr









Interior

 
IanVisits at Flickr









Video


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## Vertigo

Great pics. Londen Underground is certainly one of the most interesting metro systems in the world. It's the world's oldest, one of the most extensive and the tube lines are very typical due to their narrow profile... The extended Jubilee Line is an awesome extension to the network.


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## Jayayess1190

The Tube is AWSOME!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hkskyline

*London Subway Lines May Be Closed for 'Months' *

March 10 (Bloomberg) -- London's Waterloo & City and Northern subway lines, which serve more than 700,000 passengers every weekday, may be shut for "months" at a time for maintenance and upgrading work, the system's owner said.

London Underground Ltd. is considering the benefits of closing the lines for periods beyond the current overnight and weekend shutdowns, which restrict the amount of work that can be done, Managing Director Tim O'Toole told the London Assembly's Transport Committee today.

Tube Lines Ltd. and Metronet, which have 30-year contracts to maintain and upgrade the subway, are struggling to improve the network while continuing to operate a service for its 3 million daily passengers. Closing lines for longer periods would allow more work to be done to improve the world's oldest and Europe's largest underground rail network.

"It's the kind of thing we are willing to do if we see we are going to get the payback," O'Toole said of the proposed line closures. Terry Morgan, chief executive of Tube Lines Ltd., which is responsible for work on the Northern Line, said he has given London Underground a proposal that includes plans for longer shutdowns. He declined to say how long, though said the line may be split into seven sections and closed in turn.

The Northern Line, the system's busiest, carries about 710,000 passengers a day. It extends from Morden in south London to High Barnet and Edgware in the north, via two routes: one through the City and the other through London's West End theater district. The Waterloo & City line, which is the responsibility of Metronet, operates a non-stop shuttle service from Waterloo rail station to Bank in the capital's financial district, known as the City. It carries more than 40,000 people a day.

"Clearly it's going to be a great concern for London businesses," Dan Bridgett, a spokesman for London Chamber of Commerce, said in a telephone interview. "But we have been calling for a long time for new investment in the Tube, so provided its going to result in tangible benefits, perhaps it's a price we have to pay."

Parts of the Northern Line are "driving us all nuts," said O'Toole, who during the past two weekends has closed the City branch of the line for maintenance work. Closing the line for longer periods of time would cut short the work program by about two years, Tube Lines' Morgan said.

Brian Cooke, chairman of London Transport Users Committee, said research carried out by the group had shown that commuters were prepared to put up with such a closure if it produced "tangible" results.

If the shut down is properly planned and London Underground gives out details of alternative travel arrangements, "commuters will actually welcome" it, Cooke said in an interview. "One has to accept that there is going to be pain to get the gain."


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## Justme

^Well, if it brings the improvements ahead as far as they claim, then maybe it's not a bad thing. But it would be a hassle of cause.


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## redstone

Can someone post photos of the first lines and stations?
Thanks!


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## nick_taylor

Was looking for some pictures - but found these ones instead 







































































































































































Baker Street - one of the oldest underground stations on the planet:



















One of the more interesting stations in London, Clapham Common:


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## Justme

Nick, you found some of the best photo's of the underground I have seen!


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## Tubeman

They're great! Agreed kay:

redstone; Baker Street is THE oldest Metro / Subway station in the World (jointly)

It opened in 1863 on the Metropolitan Railway between Paddington and Farringdon Street. I posted an engraving of Baker Street back then elsewhere; I'll try to find it.


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## Tubeman

*Bump*

Because its a good thread


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## James

What makes the photos Nick posted so amazing is that they were originally Black and White pictures, and the amount of time that the photographer must have spent to colourise them is unbelievable.


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## ChrisCharlton

There's a really good book summarising the trains of the London Underground called 'Underground Movement'. There's an idea put forward in it's closing chapter for new trains to use the existing small tube tunnels, but make increases in capacity and comfort. They were called 'space trains' and seemed to be based upon shifting the in-tunnel equipment around, to allow the trains to use the curviture of the tunnel on either side:










The extra standing space is achieved by pushing the seating into the curves of the tunnel, where the reduction in carriage height is less relevant. In addition to this the trains are articulated, like the Manchester Metrolink, BCN metro (and no doubt, lots of other metros!), adding further space and openness.










The only place I've ever seen or heared about what seems like a really good idea is however this book:

Moss, P: (2000), Underground Movement, Harrow Weald: Capital Transport Books


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## centralized pandemonium

Amazing thread.


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## spsmiler

Hi there,

I saw a model of these at the 1997 UITP exhibition, which in that year was in Toronto, Canada.

I thought that this would be a wonderful idea as it would significantly increase passenger capacity. The idea was that by using shorter carriages they could be wider - because there would be less "overhang" on curved track

They were also looking at installing platform doors at the stations and converting the line to overhead wire (!) instead of using the electric rails. With the Victoria Line this would be reasonably easy to accomplish because it is completely self contained (ie: it does not share its tracks with any other railway line - whether underground or mainline).

So, anyway what happend you ask? For a long time I wondered too.

It seems that because of privatisation the forward looking plans have been quietly dropped. The private company which iis now responsible (liable?) for the Victoria Line is planning to build a fleet of "conventional" tube trains, without articulation. 

I think they want to play safe - developing and testing new trains always carries an element of risk in case there are severe teething (etc) problems. And of course nothing is worse than a failure a while after the fleet has been built which requires costly remedial work. (see below)

I would have been good if they had been able to build 2-3 trains first and test them for a year ot two. This has happened with other trains - and indeed every single train now on the Victoria Line was original tested before the Victoria Line opened on a small quiet branch of the Central Line. (Hainault - Woodford) This small branch was even converted (in the early 1960's) for "automatic" (computer-driven) trains, just to make sure that when the Victoria Line opened it would work - and be safe.

Nowadays this sort of thing would be much much more difficult. If not impossible. 

I say this because nowadays each line's trains can only operate on its own line - many of the lines use their own signalling and control systems plus in some cases even the wheel profiles are slightly different. 

Yes, at one time any train could travel on any line - but no thanks to the politicans this is not so any more. 

-----------------------

A few years ago the entire Central Line was closed for many months because of problems with the trains and it was felt too dangerous to keep the trains in use. At the time the Government had to help out with the cost of repairs - i think the politicans wanted to make sure that if this happened again the private train builders would be forced to pay. So the train builders are "playing safe" and using proven succesful train designs.

Because of the closure many people found their journey times between 60-90 minutes longer - because they had to use buses, and the roads became very much more congested (as if they were empty in the first place).

Simon


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## MSPtoMKE

Interesting designs, but i am a little confused as to how they work. It looks like the floor has been dropped, but how can that be done ans still line up with platforms? Also, how does overhead wire help? Isn't the space between the tunnel and the top of the train very small as it is? How would it fit (or is it something about the Victoria line in particular)? Thanks!


(I *heart* the Underground)


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## Tubeman

MSPtoMKE said:


> Interesting designs, but i am a little confused as to how they work. It looks like the floor has been dropped, but how can that be done ans still line up with platforms? Also, how does overhead wire help? Isn't the space between the tunnel and the top of the train very small as it is? How would it fit (or is it something about the Victoria line in particular)? Thanks!
> 
> 
> (I *heart* the Underground)


I don't really get the overhead wire thing myself; the only reason I can think of is to make detrainment down the tunnel less hazardous (i.e. no live rails to step on). There certainly isn't enough room in the tunnel for a traditional catenary / pantograph set-up... Although when it was being mooted I read that they were considering an overhead "rail" which I thought must have been a typo until I saw the Barcelona Metro which has an overhead power rail.

As the car floors are significantly lower, I can only assume all the platforms would be dropped in height which is obviously a mammoth task. Another option that just occurred to me is to raise the track level through stations, which would involve the tunnel sections either end of each platform having to be slightly enlarged to accommodate the change in track depth.


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## Q-TIP

Interesting stats on tube heights and platforms! Here, we have double decker commuter trains


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## spsmiler

Tubeman said:


> I don't really get the overhead wire thing myself; the only reason I can think of is to make detrainment down the tunnel less hazardous (i.e. no live rails to step on). There certainly isn't enough room in the tunnel for a traditional catenary / pantograph set-up... Although when it was being mooted I read that they were considering an overhead "rail" which I thought must have been a typo until I saw the Barcelona Metro which has an overhead power rail..


Tubeman,

I think they were looking at maintenance costs - the four rail system is much more expensive to maintain and by dispensing with the two power rails the costs would come down.

I dont know if it would have increased the chances of problems with return current earth leakage.

Simon


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## ChrisCharlton

I'll post a few more pics in a bit which show the improved access for people with disabilities, with the space train. I hadn't considered the platform lowering. I thought that some refitting would be needed to move cables and other equipment from the side of the tunnel to the bottom (perhaps in a trough). It could be that such a move requires the space currently taken up by the four rails?

I'm sticking my finger in the air and taking a guess with this one, but are pantographs able to obtain the current with less friction? It seems to me that rubbing a shoe along a broad piece of rail would carry more friction than gently touching an overhead wire. Interested if anyone knows more on that.

I suppose pantographs can be designed such that they dont have a high profile. On the Manchester Metrolink the pantographs stretch almost the height of another tram in the city centre and then when on the 'railway' stretches of track, the overhead power is closer to the top of the vehicle and the pantograph is compressed to quite a degree. This is so that double decker buses can go under the tram lines in the city centre, but then the costs of catenery are reduced on the suburban sections.

Know what you mean about privatisation Simon. It's very frustrating - My Dad's worked for the railway for 25 years and seen how it's changed first hand.

Coming from Liverpool and being only 23 I'm totally astonished by projects such as Merseyrail and how they would *never* happen with today's politics. Just look at Metrolink Phase 3!

Chris


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## ChrisCharlton

As promised, colour pics of the insides (seems to be based on latest Jubilee line stock) and demonstration of disabled access:



















Was thinking - in the initial diagram, the older train is labeled as being 1967 stock. Aren't they a bit higher off the platforms anyway? Am I right in thinking that the train floors have already got lower in the new Central/Northern/ and Jubilee vehicles?


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## spsmiler

ChrisCharlton said:


> I'll post a few more pics in a bit which show the improved access for people with disabilities, with the space train. I hadn't considered the platform lowering. I thought that some refitting would be needed to move cables and other equipment from the side of the tunnel to the bottom (perhaps in a trough). It could be that such a move requires the space currently taken up by the four rails?
> 
> I'm sticking my finger in the air and taking a guess with this one, but are pantographs able to obtain the current with less friction? It seems to me that rubbing a shoe along a broad piece of rail would carry more friction than gently touching an overhead wire. Interested if anyone knows more on that.
> 
> Know what you mean about privatisation Simon. It's very frustrating - My Dad's worked for the railway for 25 years and seen how it's changed first hand.
> 
> Coming from Liverpool and being only 23 I'm totally astonished by projects such as Merseyrail and how they would *never* happen with today's politics. Just look at Metrolink Phase 3!
> 
> Chris



Fascinating pics Chris. Thanks for posting them.

I dont know about floor heights having been changed on newer trains but the last time I used Northern line the train floors were waay about the platform heights - all I can say for sure is that new section of the Jublilee line was designed for wheelchair (etc) access so features level boarding.

I thought the sole reason for the pantographs on the Victoria Line was to reduce the costs of track maintenance. 

What I would find to be *very* interesting would be how they would do this on the Piccadily and Bakerloo lines. Both of these use "tube" sized trains - in different places the Piccadily line shares tracks with District or Metropolitan lines (which use full sixe trains) and I think this would prove to be physically "exceptionally difficult" to arrange even of those other trains were converted to overhead wire operation too. As for the Bakerloo line, well, north of Queens Park it runs over mainline metals and whilst the class 313 trains which also use this route are already capable of taking power from overhead wires the voltage is 25,000 v ac - which would introduce even more complications... btw, recently some ex-Mersyrail 507's have been running on this route too - these of course are third rail 750v dc only.

Apparently if the present-day regulations had been in force back in the 1960's the Victoria Line would never have been built. As it is the bureaecrats forced its downgrading to a simple tube line - the original plans were for it to use full size trains, and in view of the severe over-crowding which it suffers at busy times the extra expense would have been money _very well spent._.

I am more than just a little frustrated by the anti-transport politics by our govt. Indeed govt's of many years - its not just Tony Blair's govt who have been villains in that respect. I think that after the next election there will be more severe pruning of our railway system - no matter who wins. 

Because of my frustrations in I made (in 1995) a 75-minute video promoting better transports as a solution to traffic congestion and electric transports as a solution to air pollution. I am not a pro film-maker but i just bought a camcorder and started filming... I learnt the basics of film editing with super 8 cine holiday films from when I was a child and every year we went on family holidays & made 20-25 minute films.

More recently I have been busy on a website, which is nearly finished - the addy is www.citytransport.info 

I have also been busy letter writing / campaigning with my local council, London's mayor, The Greater London Assembly, etc At present its better that I dont say too much about that - except that if I suddenly disappear then you should investigate "Transport For london" and our *loverly* (sic) Mayor. lol. 

(or the govt. oil companies, etc because of what I say below...)


The only thing I can think of which would explain why our politicans are allowing so much to become so run down is that they are siphoning off funds for some "other" projects. It is often said that there are "other" underground transport systems - not just in Britain either. What may also have a bearing on this is that there is a large space body approaching this planet - coming from the direction of Antartica and as its devoid of natural light it cannot be seen - so maybe they have stopped caring about us (just do the minimum to keep us quiet and the stock market ticking over) whilst they prepare to save their hides. This space body has been known about for over 30 years - no its not going to hit mother earth - and indeed its partly the reason for climate change - not just on this planet either. Our burning of fossil fuels is also part of the problem but these politicans seem to not care about tomorrow or future generations, whilst despite having this knowledge I do. 

I would also sugest that this is partly why so much money goes astray from the EU that its now 10 years since the auditors passed its finances. 

Sorry, I've strayed off topic a little. But everything is connected - all we have to do is connect the dots to get the full picture.

Simon


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## Tubeman

ChrisCharlton said:


> Was thinking - in the initial diagram, the older train is labeled as being 1967 stock. Aren't they a bit higher off the platforms anyway? Am I right in thinking that the train floors have already got lower in the new Central/Northern/ and Jubilee vehicles?


The PTI (Platform-Train Interface) for the new Northern Line Trains appears worse than the old (i.e. the gap is bigger). It certainly appears that the car floors are not only higher than those of 1959 Stock, but also there is a wider gap between the platform edge and the doors.

Looking at the diagrams a little closer shows a feature of the floors of older stocks that I recall was quite marked in 1959 Stock; the floors sloped down towards the doors so that the middle of the cars / areas between the seating had higher floors (+10cm?) than by the doors. A similar arrangement could be implemented with any new stock to ensure a good PTI in the event of the car floors being lower (i.e. floors slope up towards the doors).


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## CharlieP

That looks a lot better than the current trains! Wasn't the DLR nicknamed the Toytown Light Railway or something when it first opened?


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## LondonerUpNorth

Cool, they do look a fair bit better than what's there at the moment. Good news.


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## Zaqattaq

Not the best but the current ones are so unattractive


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## officedweller

I like the big window up front - but I'm not sure if it's really all window - as the middle looks like a door.


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## Dale

Pretty cool. Long overdue.


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## Frog

MUCH better than the current ones


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## CharlieP

officedweller said:


> I like the big window up front - but I'm not sure if it's really all window - as the middle looks like a door.


It is a door - there are two tunnel sections on the DLR network (there will be three when it's extended to Woolwich) which aren't wide enough for escape routes along the side, so any evacuation would be through the front/back...


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## Crusader

great news I hope the new trains will be more spacious.


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## get13

Looks Great compared to the current ones which are ugly as hell.


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## Bitxofo

They are nice!


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## hkskyline

*Tube Lines says better performance justifies controversial rise in profits *
By Michael Harrison 
7 May 2005
The Independent

Tube Lines, one of the two private-sector consortia which have taken over the London Underground, is set to court fresh controversy by revealing an increase in profits. 

The consortium, which is responsible for the Jubilee, Northern and Piccadilly lines, is thought to have achieved a significant improvement on the £45m profit it made in its first year of operations. Details of Tube Lines" latest profits for the financial year which ended in April are due to be released in July. 

Terry Morgan, the chief executive of Tube Lines, did not disclose the specific profit figure but said the business was performing well and justified the money it is making from the Underground contract by pointing to improved performance. 

Major upgrades to the Northern and Jubilee lines are running ahead of schedule and Tube Lines has also exceeded the targets set by London Underground for punctuality and train failures. The programme to modernise or refurbish the 100 stations which Tube Lines is responsible for is on track. 

Mr Morgan said investment in the network was ahead of schedule at about £350m last year and would rise again in the current financial year to at least £380m. Tube Lines, whose two shareholders are the Spanish transport group Ferrovial and the US construction giant Bechtel, has pledged to spend £4.4bn in the first seven and a half years of its 30-year contract to modernise the Underground. The Spanish company has taken over the stakes in Tube Lines formerly owned by the UK contractors Amey and Jarvis. 

A report in March from the Commons Public Accounts Committee criticised the manner in which the Tube contracts had been awarded through a public- private partnership, saying this had already cost taxpayers £1bn in fees and higher financing charges. 

But Mr Morgan said the MPs" report had ignored all the benefits delivered by the PPP. Investment in the Underground is now three times higher than before Tube Lines took over in January 2003, while there has been a 30 per cent decline in the cost of track renewals and a 40 to 50 per cent increase in the amount of track being replaced. Escalators, meanwhile, are being replaced in 10 or 11 weeks " less than half the time it used to take. 

Mr Morgan"s counterpart at Metronet, the consortium selected to take over the rest of the Tube network, was fired last month. John Weight was removed because of Metronet"s "unacceptable" performance levels and delays to its investment programme.


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## spsmiler

I had better be careful,

suffice to say that as a British taxpaeyer I can think of better places for my money than a private contractor's sharedholder's pockets.

Simon


----------



## tommygunn

Tube being built


----------



## superchan7

Anyone have pics of the very first trains that ran on the Underground?


----------



## tommygunn

Steam trains
















electric trains





























"London is the mother of all the worlds metro systems"


----------



## Englishman

Cool picture


----------



## nick_taylor

Thats inbetween Barbican and Kings Cross I believe - the road is the top level, the Underground services the level below and the bottom level Thameslink.....I think!


----------



## Englishman

Sounds realistic enough.


----------



## TVS

You're making me feel homesicknow


----------



## hkskyline

*Tube passengers increase by 3% *
By ROGER BLITZ
18 May 2005
Financial Times

A record 976m passenger journeys were made on the London Underground in the 12 months to April, up 3 per cent on the previous year, LU said yesterday.

LU carried out 95.3 per cent of its scheduled services, its best performance for seven years. It claimed most of the improvement was the result of LU responsibilities, such as the number of train services it operates and reductions in delays.

Tim O'Toole, LU managing director, used the figures to renew pressure on Tubelines and Metronet, the infrastructure companies responsible for Tube maintenance.

"Too many passengers still suffer too many delays as a result of train, track or signal failures. We continue to demand improvements from Metronet and Tube Lines . . .," Mr O'Toole said. " . . . Itis essential they deliver the better maintenance, new trains, renewed stations and line upgrades promised to Tube passengers, on time and on budget." 

Roger Blitz


----------



## Tubeman

nick-taylor said:


> Thats inbetween Barbican and Kings Cross I believe - the road is the top level, the Underground services the level below and the bottom level Thameslink.....I think!


Its just West of Farringdon where the Thameslink dives under the Met / H&C / Circle Lines. The two pairs of tracks used to cross each other on the level originally, when it was known as the "Ray Street Gridiron". The arrangement was eliminated by the flyunder to stop all the delays the level crossing inevitably caused. I think the road crossing above it all is Ray Street.

There is an even more interesting arrangement on the now goods-only GWR Brentford Branch near Southall, where from the lowest upwards it goes railway-canal-road, all crossing each other at the same point.


----------



## eddyk

Tube randomness


----------



## hkskyline

*London Underground to offer mobile phone service in all tube stations by 2008 *
31 May 2005

LONDON (AP) - Passengers waiting to board trains in the world's oldest subway system should be able to use their mobile phones -- and maybe ever surf the Web -- at all stations by summer 2008, officials said Tuesday. 

London Underground announced that 70 companies have expressed interest in providing mobile phone service and new technologies, such as digital radio and wireless Internet, in the city's 275 Tube stations. Service in the tunnels and on the trains may be introduced later. 

"What we are expecting is that if you are currently able to use your mobile phone above ground, you will be able to use your phone below ground, on the concourse, platform and passageways," said Peter MacLellan, a London Underground spokesman. 

The 70 companies now have three months to submit specific proposals. London Underground plans to do a trial run of mobile phone reception at a central London station in 2006 before awarding the contract in late 2007. 

Because the companies will propose which services to offer and how to do it, London Underground would not give a cost estimate for the project, although one industry analyst said it would be in the range of one billion pounds (US$1.8 billion, euro1.5 billion). 

London Underground plans to reinvest this money for Tube improvements, and the companies that win the contract will pay the cost of providing the services. 

Many of the world's subway systems already offer some mobile phone reception underground, including Washington, Berlin and Hong Kong. 

"Other networks that have mobile phone provision are much newer than the London Underground," MacLellan said. "The London Underground is the oldest in the world therefore presents greater environmental and physical challenges that others don't need to face." 

More than half of London's Tube stations already get mobile phone reception because they are either above ground or close to the surface.


----------



## JapanVisitor

Really enjoyed the pictures of the tube as an ex-pat Londoner, as an Arsenal fan you must enjoy the station at Arsenal which has a great exterior.


----------



## edubejar

London Tube rocks!


----------



## Rachmaninov

On the other hand...  Delays and everything happens frequently


----------



## Tubeman

JapanVisitor said:


> Really enjoyed the pictures of the tube as an ex-pat Londoner, as an Arsenal fan you must enjoy the station at Arsenal which has a great exterior.












:yes:

Its really quite unusually located for a Tube station; its on a residential street some way away from the nearest main road... In fact its one of very few tube stations not served by any bus route. I love the way its just "plonked" in the middle of a terrace of houses.


----------



## Tubeman

Rachmaninov said:


> On the other hand...  Delays and everything happens frequently


Its improving, and plus its much more complex and old than the Hong Kong system, for example, and so is inherantly more prone to delays.


----------



## ignoramus

*Maps Based Upon The London Underground Map*

*Maps Based Upon The London Underground Map*
Different cities have different ways of displaying their subway stations and lines on system maps. How many out there are based on the hugely successful and eye friendly London Underground map?


----------



## AG

Pretty much every map of suburban rail systems and metros is based in the London design. IIRC, this type of map was introduced in London in 1933. Looks like a layout of electrical wires, and very neat, even though it doesn't show the real locations of stations and it isn't geometrically correct.


----------



## CharlieP

I think you mean "geographically" not "geometrically"


----------



## Vertigo

The Amsterdam map draws heavily on the London map... it even mentions "With permission from the London Transport Museum" on the bottom. The only difference is that it shows a bit more geographical details.


----------



## get13

Here is the Glasgow suburban rail map which is extremely similar to the LU Map(The subway is the orange ring in the middle. Hopefully soon to be extended)
BTW Glasgow has the largest suburban rail network in the uk outside London:


----------



## Rachmaninov

*Hong Kong metro chiefs advise TfL*

*Hong Kong metro chiefs advise TfL *

7 June 2005

by Dick Murray
Transport Editor
Evening Standard

TUBE chiefs are in talks with transport bosses in Hong Kong to keep London's ailing Underground working.

Transport for London (TfL) is using experts at Hong Kong's mass transit railway (MTR) as troubleshooters in an attempt to cut the huge number of breakdowns on the Tube network.

It follows increasing concern at the most senior level of the Mayor's transport authority about soaring levels of disruption.

A senior TfL source confirmed that meetings with the MTR Corporation had taken place and more were planned.

The source said MTR's expertise in running the Hong Kong metro, which has a 99 per cent punctuality record, "could prove invaluable in helping to sort out the Tube's problems".

The MTR Corporation is expanding into Europe - both in running train services and advising on engineering and signalling - and views London, where it has an office, as the key market.

MTR is advising on signal problems, the most common cause of Tube breakdowns. Also on the agenda is its possible involvement in LU plans for a huge redevelopment of West Hampstead station as a principal hub.

Tube Lines, the private sector consortium, plans to introduce state-of-the-art signals, as used on the Hong Kong metro, on the Jubilee and Northern lines.


----------



## hkskyline

MTR has been aggressively pursuing consultancy deals abroad lately. It has signed agreements with several cities in the mainland and have attempted to bid for projects in the UK.


----------



## superchan7

Was HKMTR involved in the design/construction consulting of Taiwan's recent trend of metro construction (starting from Taipei in 1997)?


----------



## sfgadv02

Wow....nice. HK getting involved in the Underground.


----------



## spsmiler

Amsterdam should not need permission, if the map is their own. OK, the concept may be copied from London but that is different.

The Strathclyde / Glasgow map is also based on London - but they dont put notices on it saying that it is used with anyone's permission. In fact they often boast that theirs is the largest British system based on a single city - outside of London. (which is what get13 says, above).

btw, I put a system map on my site too - and yes it was based (in theme) on the London map. But i drew it myself and there are a few subtle differences.

Simon


----------



## MSPtoMKE

spsmiler said:


> btw, I put a system map on my site too - and yes it was based (in theme) on the London map. But i drew it myself and there are a few subtle differences.
> Simon


Well, i found my way to your website, but i couldn't seem to find the map. Care to post it? I always like to see maps drawn by forumers.


----------



## Cee_em_bee

get13 said:


> Here is the Glasgow suburban rail map which is extremely similar to the LU Map(The subway is the orange ring in the middle. Hopefully soon to be extended)
> BTW Glasgow has the largest suburban rail network in the uk outside London:



Glasgows network is HUGE for such a small city.


----------



## londonindyboy




----------



## Justme

Tubeman said:


> Yes I liked the articulated walk-through train cars and they have great air con (like sitting in a fridge!).


Year, the trains are wonderfully airconditioned, but not the stations (at least not Passiag de Gracia, which is a big one in the city centre). It was unbelievably hot on the platform, very uncomfortable, but when the train arrived, it was a great refuge from the heat.

It was quite nice to see all the woman with their fans flapping them over their faces.


----------



## ch1le

Justme said:


> Year, it does in parts, and it's getting it as well. I must admit though, since my visit to Barcelona a couple of weeks back (which I loved!), I found the central city metro stations to be in worse state to London's central city stations.
> 
> Passiag de Gracia was in shocking state, both the commuter rail section, which was like sitting in an oven, and the metro part. The tunnels between them were in worse state than anything I have seen in central London recently.
> 
> Also, Sants has nothing on the London central hubs, although it's not really the metro, it is fully underground. I wonder what the original station was like, was it a grand space like the other Barcelona stations and London's terminus'?
> 
> That said, it's still a wonderful network in barcelona, and some of the underground stations outside of the central area were wonderful. I saw some really lovely ones on the underground commuter rail I took to the Foster tower on the mountain (between the city and the funicular).
> 
> Someone should start a discussion thread on the Barcelona network.



oh, i love the Barca network  The trains the metros yummie  Barcelona was also a wonderful city in itself!


----------



## Bitxofo

Justme said:


> Year, it does in parts, and it's getting it as well. I must admit though, since my visit to Barcelona a couple of weeks back (which I loved!), I found the central city metro stations to be in worse state to London's central city stations.
> 
> Passiag de Gracia was in shocking state, both the commuter rail section, which was like sitting in an oven, and the metro part. The tunnels between them were in worse state than anything I have seen in central London recently.
> 
> Also, Sants has nothing on the London central hubs, although it's not really the metro, it is fully underground. I wonder what the original station was like, was it a grand space like the other Barcelona stations and London's terminus'?
> 
> That said, it's still a wonderful network in barcelona, and some of the underground stations outside of the central area were wonderful. I saw some really lovely ones on the underground commuter rail I took to the Foster tower on the mountain (between the city and the funicular).
> 
> Someone should start a discussion thread on the Barcelona network.


Dear Justme,

Central metro stations in Barcelona are all right except 2 or 3, but they are going to be refurbished within 2 years. 
Passeig de Gràcia is a huge station for 3 metro lines and many trains lines. The station for line 2 is very nice, the station for line 3 is nice and the station for line 4 is not bad, but the tranfer corridor is horrible: the longest in our network: 300 metres! It was renewed 1 year ago, it was worse before that! 
About Sants central railway station, it was built in the 70s and has always been under the ground. The old and beautiful terminus stations were Estació de França and Estació del Nord (this one is the central coach station now).

Anyway, do not worry:
The whole trains network is being refurbished and improved for the arrival of high speed train lines in 2007. So now, it's your last chance to see the horrible transfer corridors of Passeig de Gràcia and Sants station...
Also in 2007, all metro, tramways and commuter trains system will be fully accessible for disabled people, now it's 70% accessible!
You will see all changes made by 2007-8.
:wink2:
@Justme:
We could meet in Barcelona...
:dunno:


----------



## DaDvD

Justme said:


> Year, the trains are wonderfully airconditioned, but not the stations (at least not Passiag de Gracia, which is a big one in the city centre). It was unbelievably hot on the platform, very uncomfortable, but when the train arrived, it was a great refuge from the heat.
> 
> It was quite nice to see all the woman with their fans flapping them over their faces.


Totally agree, the waiting time for the subway in the station was HORRIBLE, much more than in Madrid (because of the humidity...!)


----------



## londonindyboy

DaDvD said:


> Totally agree, the waiting time for the subway in the station was HORRIBLE, much more than in Madrid (because of the humidity...!)


you are absoloutely right.


----------



## Bitxofo

DaDvD said:


> Totally agree, the waiting time for the subway in the station was HORRIBLE, much more than in Madrid (because of the humidity...!)


From 10pm to 2am there is a train every 5-8min. in Barcelona, but one train every 15min. in Madrid...


----------



## Justme

bitxofo said:


> Dear Justme,
> 
> @Justme:
> We could meet in Barcelona...
> :dunno:


Year, problem was time and being with my Mrs. If I was travelling alone I would have been able to fit it in and made contact. Would have been great to meet up, for one thing, you could have told me how to correctly pronounce the "Eixample"


----------



## Mojito

Well, I'm back from a week in London, and I can say that I love the tube lines and their unique stocks. I'm talking about the deep-level lines, not the sub-surface lines. (the sub-surface lines are also interesting, but their rolling stocks have more similarities with other systems in the world)

And especially the Central Line's 1992 stock!

The reasons for this are simple. It was my first experience with the typical deep-level lines, and with the Underground. My train from Harwich (I took the boat from Holland) called at Stratford, and there I saw some Central Line trains running on the other tracks of the station. 

At Liverpool Street, where I entered London, I took a Central Line train to my hotel and because it was my first experience with the tube, it will stay in my mind forever. The scent, the sounds and noise, the strong wind, when a train is approaching, the heat, the crowd... I love the Paris metro and Berlin U-Bahn very much, but they cannot beat the iconic atmosphere of the tube.

After travelling almost all other lines (except for the East London Line and Waterloo & City Line, which didn't fit in my scheme...after all, I was with my girlfriend and she wanted -quite logic- to see more than only the tube ...and so did I...) I can say the 1992 stock is still my favourite. I love their spacious design, with the unique single big windows, (too bad that the majority of the passengers don't appreciate the mirror-effect), their wide doors with their continuous beep-signal when closing, and adore their accelerating and decelerating motor sounds. 

A few years ago, when I saw the different types of rolling stocks for the first time in a book, I thought the 1992 stock was the most modern type of train in London, but I was surprised to find out that the more traditional looking 1995 and 1996 stocks of the Northern and Jubilee lines were a little younger. 

And I had the feeling that it was much faster than the other tube lines (which are also faster than I've ever seen, while entering a station at full speed and starting to decelerate when the first carriages are in the station and along the platform already), but maybe it's a personal feeling. 

I read somewhere on this forum the Victoria Line is one of the fastest in the world and certainly in London...but I couldn't help thinking the Central Line trains were running faster...


----------



## Sitback

I don't care how big the bloomin' tunnels are and how small the dimensions of the 'stocks' are just as long as they get me where I want to go. I can sit in the London underground in comfort the only thing I got against it i it gets far to hot in the Northern Line.

Sheesh.


----------



## nick_taylor

I think the fastest line is probably the Victoria line, but the fastest attained speed I think is something like the Central Line up by Epping - something like 100kph. Tubeman will be able to fill in the blanks and dot the i's though here


----------



## Mojito

^^I haven't seen any tube section outside zones 1 and 2, unfortunately...(exept for the Richmond branch of the District Line, with an extension ticket, because we wanted to see the beautiful Kew Gardens) But when I look at the geographical tube map of Central London, I see the Central Line has got less curves than most of the other tube lines...Maybe that is an explanation for my feeling...

A six-zone travelcard is something for the next time I will visit London...!


----------



## AmiDelf

Oslo subway wagons specs:


























Production company: Strømmens Verksted - EGA⁄AEG - NEBB - Høka
Cabnumber: 1001-1030, 1031-1090, 1091-1105, 1106-1135, 1136-1146
Type: T-I⁄2 (serie 1), T-II (serie 2), T-IV (serie 4)
Year of production: 1966, 1970, 1972, 1976, 1978, 
Length: 17000
Height: 3650
Width: 3200
Max speed: 70km/h
Comfort: about 63 sitting places and about 117 non sitting space









Production company: Strømmens Verksted - EGA⁄AEG - NEBB
Cabnumber: 1301-1318, 1334-1343, 1344-1349 
Type: T-V (serie 5), T-VII (serie 7), T-VIII (serie 8)
Year of production: 1978, 1986, 1987, 1989 
Length: 17000
Height: 3650
Width: 3200
Max speed: 70km/h
Comfort: about 70 sitting places and about 110 non sitting space









Production company: EB Strømmens Verksted - AEG
Cabnumber: 2001-2012
Type: T-2000 
Year of production: 1993
Length: 8000+18000
Height: 3650
Width: 3300
Max speed: 100km/h
Comfort: about 60 sitting places and about 125 non sitting space


I think that none of the subway wagons in Oslo would ever fit into Londons tunnels. Half of the roof would fall off  hehe


----------



## Justme

There are still a couple of stations with the original "Mind the Gap" announcement. There are a few different ones around, but the one that became so famous has a rather harsh, posh voice. I once found a website which had a sample, but they blocked the direct linking when I posted it here a long time ago. If anyone can find the original voice sample again, would be really cool...


----------



## Tubeman

nick-taylor said:


> I think the fastest line is probably the Victoria line, but the fastest attained speed I think is something like the Central Line up by Epping - something like 100kph. Tubeman will be able to fill in the blanks and dot the i's though here


Technically the Metropolitan Line was the fastest, in the open sections coming down from the Chiltern Hills, but the maximum permitted speed has been cut back to 60mph (100kmh) from the former 70mph.

In deep-level tunnel, the Victoria Line reaches (officially) 57mph (just under 100kmh) between Seven Sisters and Finsbury Park, and the Jubilee reaches 60mph (100kmh) between Canada Water and Canary Wharf. The Central Line has very good braking capability and is fully automatic, although I think the top speeds are now retarded following the Chancery Lane derailment... The sensation of speed comes from the fact that the trains can enter the 8-car platforms at 40mph (60kmh) and still manage to stop, whereas 30mph is more typical for other lines.

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed the Tube Mojito


----------



## Me_Simon

my personal opinion;
London Underground = very nice clean stations, excellent coverage and train network; but the trains are so noisy!!!!
Paris Metro = disqusting stations, excellent coverage; and nice quiet smooth trains!

lol @ 'mind the gap' I don't normally pay attention to the annoucements (because I'm an Aussie tourist ) but that was some gap in some of the stations


----------



## Tubeman

Me_Simon said:


> my personal opinion;
> London Underground = very nice clean stations, excellent coverage and train network; but the trains are so noisy!!!!
> Paris Metro = disqusting stations, excellent coverage; and nice quiet smooth trains!
> 
> lol @ 'mind the gap' I don't normally pay attention to the annoucements (because I'm an Aussie tourist ) but that was some gap in some of the stations


Paris has rubber tyres, London is metal on metal


----------



## Falubaz

Tubeman said:


> Paris has rubber tyres, London is metal on metal


Paris has *only some *rubber tyres lines and some traditional "metal on metal" lines

but the worst thing in that both systems is: it's too hot there!!!


----------



## hkskyline

*London seeks new transport boss after Kiley quits *

LONDON, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Britain's capital began looking for a new transport supremo on Friday after Bob Kiley, the ex CIA man who oversaw the introduction of congestion charging and extra buses, quit unexpectedly. 

The Transport for London (TfL) Commissioner gave no reasons as to why he was leaving the high profile job although several newspapers said his early departure was because of a row. 

"It has been a privilege to serve...TfL has more than proved it can deliver since it was formed five years ago," Kiley said in a short statement. 

The Times newspaper said Kiley, who was expected to stay on until 2008, had quit after clashing with a fellow director and failing to get support from Mayor Ken Livingstone. 

The resignation of 70-year old Kiley was because he had argued with Livingstone, the Independent said, while the Guardian reported the American had lost a power struggle with the mayor. 

Kiley, a former New York subway boss credited with revamping that crime-ridden network, was brought in by Livingstone to sort out London's extensive, but ageing transport infrastructure which carries millions of passengers every day. 

Following his appointment in 2001, Kiley became one of Livingstone's staunchest and most vocal allies in his battle to oppose government plans to involve private firms in modernising the system. 

Livingstone said Kiley, who will stand down at the end of January 2006, will continue to act as the mayor's transport advisor. 

"Bob has overseen the transformation of London's bus service, with two million more bus journeys each day, introduced the world's largest congestion charging scheme and begun the largest investment programme in London's transport system since the Second World War," the mayor said in a statement. 

Roger Evans, the Conservative transport spokesman in the London Assembly said he wanted to know why Kiley was leaving. 

"We always had serious concerns about Bob Kiley's value for money -- after all he was one of the highest paid public sector bureaucrats in the world. However, we need to know specifically why he quit."


----------



## spsmiler

Hi all,

as you have seen, Bob Kiley is leaving us in London.

below is a copy of his bio as taken from the TfL website a few years ago - although more recently they have condensed this down to far less information (leaving out the really interesting stuff). As you will see, whilst at the CIA he was more than just a small time operative.

btw, I question whether he actually left the CIA, (can people "leave" that sort of organisation?) or whether he has kept in contact, perhaps for intelligence reasons. His being a member of the Council on Foreign Relations speaks volumes too; I assume he is also a member of the famed Bilderberg Group, although because of a media blackout few ordinary mortals even know that secretive organisation exists.

I would suggest that the timing of his leaving is not unconnected with other events which I wont discuss here, and that there is much more to the publicly stated "disagreement" which caused him to resign than we are being told.

Simon
------------

Prior to his appointment as Commissioner of Transport for London in January 2001, Robert Kiley served as President and Chief Executive Officer of the New York City Partnership. The Partnership, the city's leading business and civic organisation, improves the city's economic climate through advocacy and public-private initiatives in education, job creation, affordable housing, and neighbourhood development. Its membership reflects the impressive breadth of the city's private, non-profit and civic leadership.

From 1991 to 1994 he was President of Fischbach Corporation, a major New York-based construction and engineering company, and in 1994 became its Chairman until assuming his position at the New York City Partnership in 1995.

From 1983 until 1990, he was Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA). At the MTA he was responsible for five transportation agencies serving the New York Metropolitan Region where he directed the rebuilding of New York's public transportation system and restructured its management. He led successful efforts to obtain more than $16 billion from the New York State legislature for capital improvements to the city's subways and buses, commuter railroads, tunnels and bridges in the MTA region.

Robert Kiley has consulted with corporations and public agencies at the Management Analysis Center (now Cap Gemini) then headquartered in Cambridge, Massachusetts. In the 1970s he was Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority in Boston and served as Deputy Mayor of the City of Boston.

Early in his career, he was with the CIA, where he served as Manager of Intelligence Operations and then as Executive Assistant to the Director.

Robert Kiley is a Member of the Council on Foreign Relations, Board Member of the Salzburg International Seminar, the American Repertory Theater, MONY Group Inc, the Princeton Review Inc and Edison Schools, Inc. He is also on the Advisory Board of the Harvard University Center for State and Local Government.

A Magna Cum Laude graduate of the University of Notre Dame, Indiana, USA, Robert Kiley and his wife Rona now live in London.


----------



## redstone

Can someone please enlighten me, how were the first underground lines/ stations in London built?

Like how did they manage to tunnel under buildings?


----------



## spsmiler

redstone said:


> Can someone please enlighten me, how were the first underground lines/ stations in London built?
> 
> Like how did they manage to tunnel under buildings?


They dug up a street with a deep tranch, and after building the tunnel side walls they covered it over, reinstating the street.

deep level tubes were built by tunnelling machine and installing a circle of cast iron metal pieces to keep the tunnels shape.

Since they were mostly digging through clay the tunnels would kep their shape betwen digging and installing the cast iron segments.

Hope this helps, sorry, itsd very brief but I must stop on the web for now - try asking Tubeman on his thread..

Simon


----------



## hkskyline

Cut and cover is still a popular way of building subways today, over a hundred years after the first subways opened.


----------



## Tubeman

hkskyline said:


> Cut and cover is still a popular way of building subways today, over a hundred years after the first subways opened.


Its possible in cities with broad streets like Paris or New York, but impossible in cities like London where virtually all roads are at best only 2 carriageways wide. It is by far the cheapest and quickest method of tunnelling.


----------



## chris9

Funny how some people complain about the tube, it was already operational at the time some cities still relied on horse drawn carriages or early electric surface trams.


----------



## mr_storms

92 stock is the best, got to love those massive windows and doors. I havent ridden either 95 or 96 though, i left before they were put into service . I really would have liked the new northern train, the 59 stock was pretty ugly.


----------



## Metropolitan

Justme said:


> Yes, I am well versed with those at this forum that consider the RER a metro system. But the RER itself considers it a suburban commuter rail network, and that's good enough for me
> 
> I have yet to see any rail website that considers the RER a metro, and whenever Paris is discussed regarding it's metro, it never includes the RER as part of it. It is often called a "Supermetro", which is a nice way of saying it's a
> 
> Just because a network goes underground in the city doesn't make it a metro. The Sydney commuter rail network (and there is no question that it is commuter rail) has a majority stock of double decker trains and also goes underground in the central area.
> 
> But anyway, it's been debated hotly on this forum for some reason which really baffles me as no rail forum debates this that I have seen, and I'd rather not resserect this again.
> 
> So, I stand by what I say, unless I am missing a network somewhere in the world, I don't know of any officially accepted metro network as having double decker trains, but yes, I know of plenty of commuter networks, including those like Paris which has some metro simularities in the central city that have double deckers.


It's very weird but those considering the RER as a subway are actually those living in Paris. You've never thought that they consider it this way for the simple reason that they use it this way ? That's out of your way of thinking.

Of course transport authorities will tell you that the RER is a distinguished system from the métro ! One is an express metropolitan network when the other one is a proximity network. However both networks are mutually intertwined and complementary. You cannot think of Paris subway without the RER, this is purely impossible. If in your other subway forums they tell they consider Paris subway without the RER, then they are simply truncating the system in a way which is totally artificial. This is a unique system. One time in your life I hope you'll understand what it means.


----------



## redstone

So the very first tunnels were built under existing streets? :?


----------



## AG

A lot of cut and cover tunnels were built to follow the streets, but sometimes buildings were torn down to make way for the shallow tunnels as they did in London. Buildings were then rebuilt above the shallow tunnels. Even more odd is that there are some facades around the city above these tunnels that have no building behind them. They simply cover up an above ground opening where the smoke from the steam trains escaped before electric trains were introduced.


----------



## Justme

Metropolitan said:


> It's very weird but those considering the RER as a subway are actually those living in Paris. You've never thought that they consider it this way for the simple reason that they use it this way ? That's out of your way of thinking.
> 
> Of course transport authorities will tell you that the RER is a distinguished system from the métro ! One is an express metropolitan network when the other one is a proximity network. However both networks are mutually intertwined and complementary. You cannot think of Paris subway without the RER, this is purely impossible. If in your other subway forums they tell they consider Paris subway without the RER, then they are simply truncating the system in a way which is totally artificial. This is a unique system. One time in your life I hope you'll understand what it means.


We've been through this time and time again. I have never seen any subway/metro guide, whether on the internet or in books that consider the RER a metro system.

When the concensus between those that study metro's consider it a metro, then it is likely to be a metro.


----------



## Tubeman

AG said:


> A lot of cut and cover tunnels were built to follow the streets, but sometimes buildings were torn down to make way for the shallow tunnels as they did in London. Buildings were then rebuilt above the shallow tunnels. Even more odd is that there are some facades around the city above these tunnels that have no building behind them. They simply cover up an above ground opening where the smoke from the steam trains escaped before electric trains were introduced.


Indeed, 23 / 24 Leinster Gardens in Bayswater has houses complete with painted on front doors and house numbers which is in fact just a wall with the railway behind!










You should be able to just about make out the uniformly grey painted windows


This is what you would find if you were to open the front door (if there was one!)


----------



## Tubeman

redstone said:


> So the very first tunnels were built under existing streets? :?


Mostly, but as AG said some of the 'Cut & Cover' lines had no choice but to charge through neighbourhoods destroying everything in their path.

Often, the construction of a line was tied in with a new roadway above instead of following an existing one. Examples of this is the ambitious project to reclaim part of the Thames foreshore and build The Embankment, in-filling the recalimed land behind. This accounted for the District & Circle Lines between Westminster and Blackfriars and the new roadway ('The Embankment') above. The Victorians were almost arrogant in their ambition... In an era of essentially pure navvy power the concept of pushing back the Thames and building a railway along the river bed wasn't alien to them, they just got on and built it.

Often the construction of a new 'Cut & Cover' railway was a good excuse for a bit of old-fashioned 'Slum Clearance'. Between King's Cross and Farringdon (Street) the Metropolitan railway was built largely along the course of the then exposed River Fleet. The River was home to some of the worst 'Dickensian' slums in London, with ramshackle shanty homes backing onto the foetid river which became an open sewer. The railway cut a swathe through the slums, culverted the river (such that there is now no trace of it) and then built a new roadway above (Farringdon Road) so that where once was a huge slum and open sewer there now is a roadway and underground railway.


----------



## Justme

Apparently, 23 / 24 Leinster Gardens is a joke played to new postmen or couriers when they start the route. They are given something to deliver to the address, but when they get there, they can't find the letterbox, or no one answers the door.


----------



## nick_taylor

Justme said:


> Apparently, 23 / 24 Leinster Gardens is a joke played to new postmen or couriers when they start the route. They are given something to deliver to the address, but when they get there, they can't find the letterbox, or no one answers the door.


:laugh:


----------



## Metropolitan

Justme said:


> We've been through this time and time again. I have never seen any subway/metro guide, whether on the internet or in books that consider the RER a metro system.


Have you ever seen a Paris subway map picturing the métro _without_ the RER ?



> When the concensus between those that study metro's consider it a metro, then it is likely to be a metro.


That's obvious. The métro is a specific local network specific to Paris downtown. The RER is another network which is different from the métro since it's been thought as an express metropolitan network. However, at the opposite of the lies you're always repeating, the RER can't by no mean be considered as commuter rails, like the "trains de banlieues" we can find in Paris.

Those are two very distinct networks which are even more apart than is the métro from the RER, once considering the frequencies of trains and the general organization of the system. While the RER and the métro are used by Parisians as a common system, the suburban rails are clearly considered as apart. To give you an exemple, the transit from metro lines to commuter rails aren't written in Paris subway. You just have a little symbol showing a big train to tell you it's a national rail station, like are also shown planes to symbolize the airports.

Now that this is said from a Paris point of view, let's try to get a larger point of view. Indeed, we can decently consider that what is called subway or métro in other cities are actually closer to what is called RER in Paris. And that question is also perfectly valid and you should ask it to your friends (who obviously aren't great thinkers).


The Central line in London has a length of 74 km for 49 stops. That makes an average distance of 1,510 m between each stop.

The RER B in Paris has a length of 80 km for 47 stops. That makes an average distance of 1,702 m between each stop.

If you check those statistics, you realize those lines are a lot more comparable than for instance the line 1 of Paris métro, which has a length of 17 km for 25 stops, making the average distance between stops at 664 m.

That's the only point.


----------



## Tubeman

My attitude is if its electric, frequent (i.e. at least a train every 10 minutes), and has distinct line identities serving a city and its suburbs then its a Metro.

This means I'd consider the RER a Metro, as I would the Sydney Cityrail and Melbourne Metro... even though the latter two are obviously conventional heavy rail which have a little bit of tunnel in the centre of town.

Being subterranean isn't the be all and end all either; the Chicago L and much of the NYC subway is elevated as well as numerous other metros.

London's suburban rail doesn't qualify as metro by my criteria despite the 'ON' branding and the increasing use of the word 'Metro'. Most lines have a 4tph frequency and where several different routes overlap to give a very frequent service (e.g. Clapham Junction to Waterloo) its spurious to brand it as a metro when you have a choice of 5 or 6 different platforms and have to have your wits about you to find the next London train! Thameslink falls short of my criteria because it extends so far outside London and runs fast for much of the route south of London... Its a frequent express route that happens to go under the middle of London in my opinion.

Its all conjecture, and I can see Justme's logic, but in my opinion RER = Metro


----------



## Justme

Metropolitan said:


> Have you ever seen a Paris subway map picturing the métro _without_ the RER ?


To be honest, it only shows the central part of the network. Also, all German U-bahn maps include the S-bahn and the London Underground map also includes some National Rail lines. They are not metro's.



Metropolitan said:


> That's obvious. The métro is a specific local network specific to Paris downtown. The RER is another network which is different from the métro since it's been thought as an express metropolitan network. However, at the opposite of the lies you're always repeating, the RER can't by no mean be considered as commuter rails, like the "trains de banlieues" we can find in Paris.


All do respect, there is absolutely no need to resort to telling me I am "repeating lies". That sort of behavior will not get you any respect on this forum.

If you don't agree with my opinion, but don't resort to such allegations.

All I have said is that I have yet to find any rail source on the internet or in books that define the RER as a metro. Until the majority of them do, I will not accept that it is.

I have rights to that opinion.



Metropolitan said:


> Those are two very distinct networks which are even more apart than is the métro from the RER, once considering the frequencies of trains and the general organization of the system. While the RER and the métro are used by Parisians as a common system, the suburban rails are clearly considered as apart. To give you an example, the transit from metro lines to commuter rails aren't written in Paris subway. You just have a little symbol showing a big train to tell you it's a national rail station, like are also shown planes to symbolize the airports.
> 
> Now that this is said from a Paris point of view, let's try to get a larger point of view. Indeed, we can decently consider that what is called subway or métro in other cities are actually closer to what is called RER in Paris. And that question is also perfectly valid and you should ask it to your friends (who obviously aren't great thinkers).


Again, at the end you resort to insults. All because you have a different opinion. I hope for your sake you don't talk to people face to face like this.



Metropolitan said:


> The Central line in London has a length of 74 km for 49 stops. That makes an average distance of 1,510 m between each stop.
> 
> The RER B in Paris has a length of 80 km for 47 stops. That makes an average distance of 1,702 m between each stop.
> 
> If you check those statistics, you realize those lines are a lot more comparable than for instance the line 1 of Paris métro, which has a length of 17 km for 25 stops, making the average distance between stops at 664 m.
> 
> That's the only point.


That's fair enough points. But what are the frequencies, and station averages of the other lines?

You are welcome to your opinion, please respect others


----------



## Justme

Tubeman said:


> My attitude is if its electric, frequent (i.e. at least a train every 10 minutes), and has distinct line identities serving a city and its suburbs then its a Metro.
> 
> This means I'd consider the RER a Metro, as I would the Sydney Cityrail and Melbourne Metro... even though the latter two are obviously conventional heavy rail which have a little bit of tunnel in the centre of town.
> 
> Being subterranean isn't the be all and end all either; the Chicago L and much of the NYC subway is elevated as well as numerous other metros.
> 
> London's suburban rail doesn't qualify as metro by my criteria despite the 'ON' branding and the increasing use of the word 'Metro'. Most lines have a 4tph frequency and where several different routes overlap to give a very frequent service (e.g. Clapham Junction to Waterloo) its spurious to brand it as a metro when you have a choice of 5 or 6 different platforms and have to have your wits about you to find the next London train! Thameslink falls short of my criteria because it extends so far outside London and runs fast for much of the route south of London... Its a frequent express route that happens to go under the middle of London in my opinion.
> 
> Its all conjecture, and I can see Justme's logic, but in my opinion RER = Metro


On the note of Sydney's city rail. This travels from Wollongong to Newcastle. A tri-metro area covering 25,000km². Almost all of the line is suburban with the exception of a tiny fraction in the city center (and a great deal travels through large national parks including crossing the entire width of the Blue Mountains). It is clearly a suburban/commuter line, with S-bahn simularities in downtown and large regional lines in the outskirts. A metro is a very long shot there.


----------



## Metropolitan

Justme said:


> On the note of Sydney's city rail. This travels from Wollongong to Newcastle. A tri-metro area covering 25,000km². Almost all of the line is suburban with the exception of a tiny fraction in the city center (and a great deal travels through large national parks including crossing the entire width of the Blue Mountains). It is clearly a suburban/commuter line, with S-bahn simularities in downtown and large regional lines in the outskirts. A metro is a very long shot there.


For which reason do you compare cities which have nothing is common ? Paris and Sydney are not comparable by any mean ! Actually, as my brother lives in Australia I can know how much it's idiotic to compare those cities !

Sydney is an urban spreading, it has a microscopic center made of a skyscraper cluster and few brick flat buildings. There's absolutely nothing in common between Sydney and Paris !

I haven't taken public transports in Sydney (the city is very easy to cross by car), however I've used the transit in Melbourne. This is NOT an RER, it's clearly a commuter rail network. The network in Sydney is based in the same kind of structure. Your comparison is totally absurd for the simple reason that those cities have absolutely nothing in common. Okay, there's a rail belt around the center of Melbourne (which is even more microscopic than in Sydney) but it only connects railroad stations ! It's not about urban stations as you can find in any subway or in the RER. Hence, your comparison is simply pointless...

Of course I guess you didn't have the chance to go in Australia as I would be highly surprised your brother would live in that city (It would be an awesome common point between you and me). Hence I can forgive you, but anyone who has used the transit in Melbourne and the RER in Paris will tell you that you're comparing apples with oranges. The system in Melbourne, as much as the system in Sydney, are about commuter rail networks like the _trains de banlieues_ in Paris which are also connecting railroad stations.


----------



## Justme

Metropolitan said:


> For which reason do you compare cities which have nothing is common ? Paris and Sydney are not comparable by any mean ! Actually, as my brother lives in Australia I can know how much it's idiotic to compare those cities !


Please tone down your outbursts. You may have a problem comparing infrastructure between Paris and Sydney, but that doesn't mean everyone else lacks this ability.



Metropolitan said:


> I haven't taken public transports in Sydney (the city is very easy to cross by car), however I've used the transit in Melbourne. This is NOT an RER, it's clearly a commuter rail network. The network in Sydney is based in the same kind of structure. Your comparison is totally absurd for the simple reason that those cities have absolutely nothing in common. Okay, there's a rail belt around the center of Melbourne (which is even more microscopic than in Sydney) but it only connects railroad stations ! It's not about urban stations as you can find in any subway or in the RER. Hence, your comparison is simply pointless...


Bold remarks from someone who admits they have never travelled on Sydney's rail network.



Metropolitan said:


> Of course I guess you didn't have the chance to go in Australia as I would be highly surprised your brother would live in that city (It would be an awesome common point between you and me). Hence I can forgive you, but anyone who has used the transit in Melbourne and the RER in Paris will tell you that you're comparing apples with oranges. The system in Melbourne, as much as the system in Sydney, are about commuter rail networks like the _trains de banlieues_ in Paris which are also connecting railroad stations.


Hmmm, this is where your outbursts and assumptions work against you. I am actually an Australian. You'd be surprised how much I know about the Sydney system having used it for a damn good deal of my life on a daily basis. 

Oh, yes, Sydney was my home town.

Now, I didn't bring up Sydney, so don't blast me. But it's an interesting comparison. Sydney's network is a combined system with has parts like an RER in the city center, where suburban trains travel underground but where most are out in the suburbs over ground. It also operates as a suburban rail system, an express commuter system, and a regional rail system. Unfortunately all under a single entity and over the same lines which does hinder it a bit. In fact, another thing it has in common with some RER lines are the double decker trains - one thing you don't find on metro's because of the slow boarding and disembarking, somthing more suitable to suburban and commuter links.

Now please. Enough of the personal attacks. I'm not attacking you, I just have an opinion that is different from your's, which seems like something you can't tolerate.


----------



## Metropolitan

_Post edited._



Justme said:


> Please tone down your outbursts. You may have a problem comparing infrastructure between Paris and Sydney, but that doesn't mean everyone else lacks this ability.


I don't have any difficulty to compare both. I just believe that the cities of Paris and Sydney are structured so differently that they aren't comparable. It's just my opinion though.



> Bold remarks from someone who admits they have never travelled on Sydney's rail network.


Sydney being a low density urban sprawl with a very small center. Totally uncomparable with Paris density nearly reaching the level we can find in New York City.



> Hmmm, this is where your outbursts and assumptions work against you. I am actually an Australian. You'd be surprised how much I know about the Sydney system having used it for a damn good deal of my life on a daily basis.
> 
> Oh, yes, Sydney was my home town.


Fine, but it's just a suburban rail system. As 95% of Sydney's population live in housing sprawl.



> Now, I didn't bring up Sydney, so don't blast me.


Actually you did, but that's not so much a problem. 



> But it's an interesting comparison. Sydney's network is a combined system with has parts like an RER in the city center, where suburban trains travel underground but where most are out in the suburbs over ground. It also operates as a suburban rail system, an express commuter system, and a regional rail system. Unfortunately all under a single entity and over the same lines which does hinder it a bit. In fact, another thing it has in common with some RER lines are the double decker trains - one thing you don't find on metro's because of the slow boarding and disembarking, somthing more suitable to suburban and commuter links.


There's a train every 90 seconds on the RER A and despite this, there are still double-decker trains on that line (fairly recent actually). It doesn't take more time to board into an RER A than to board into a Metro on line 1. I actually fail to see for which reason you could believe the opposite. The frequency of the RER is actually superior to the frequency of the métro.



> Now please. Enough of the personal attacks. I'm not attacking you, I just have an opinion that is different from your's, which seems like something you can't tolerate.


Well I'm sorry about it. I didn't want to attack you, and that's mainly the reason why I've edited this post. Now, please forgive me, but I still believe that Sydney's network is different from the RER network, not necessarily because of the infrastructure (as you've pointed out, I've never taken public transports in Sydney so I can't know about it), but because the cities are different and the way people are transiting in both cities are very different.


----------



## Tubeman

Justme said:


> On the note of Sydney's city rail. This travels from Wollongong to Newcastle. A tri-metro area covering 25,000km². Almost all of the line is suburban with the exception of a tiny fraction in the city center (and a great deal travels through large national parks including crossing the entire width of the Blue Mountains). It is clearly a suburban/commuter line, with S-bahn simularities in downtown and large regional lines in the outskirts. A metro is a very long shot there.


Yes with hindsight I realise that Sydney and Melbourne are about as much metro as Thameslink is :yes:

I still think the RER does qualify though


----------



## Justme

Metropolitan said:


> What I cannot tolerate is hearing someone from down under Australia being confident in his idea that he knows better what is the RER than I do, as a Parisians using it every day. There's a word for this : arrogance.


This is actually quite amusing, especially from someone who insists on debating about a system (Sydney) of which they have never actually been on.
Now, I'm not the only one who considers simularities with the RER and Sydney's system...
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/list+of+suburban+and+commuter+rail+systems
http://www.infothis.com/find/Regional_rail/


The problem with this debate, is that you throw insults at me for my opinions.

What's wrong with that, is that my opinion, is the accepted opinion in the industry as far as the RER goes.

You can debate your side of the case all you want, and that's fair, but if you insult my side of the argument, you are claiming every book is wrong and that you are right.

I'll ask you one thing. If the RER is considered a metro, then surely Paris has the largest metro system in the world. Please show me one site on the internet that claims Paris has the largest metro in the world.

The Internet is a big thing, with billions upon billions of articles. Surely, if you are right in what you say, you will find at least ONE site amongst those billions to back you up and claim Paris with the world's largest metro.

And please, no further insults. It really makes you look like your backed against a brick wall.

I'll suggest you start searching.


----------



## Metropolitan

Justme said:


> This is actually quite amusing, especially from someone who insists on debating about a system (Sydney) of which they have never actually been on.
> Now, I'm not the only one who considers simularities with the RER and Sydney's system...
> http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/list+of+suburban+and+commuter+rail+systems
> http://www.infothis.com/find/Regional_rail/
> 
> 
> The problem with this debate, is that you throw insults at me for my opinions.
> 
> What's wrong with that, is that my opinion, is the accepted opinion in the industry as far as the RER goes.
> 
> You can debate your side of the case all you want, and that's fair, but if you insult my side of the argument, you are claiming every book is wrong and that you are right.
> 
> I'll ask you one thing. If the RER is considered a metro, then surely Paris has the largest metro system in the world. Please show me one site on the internet that claims Paris has the largest metro in the world.
> 
> The Internet is a big thing, with billions upon billions of articles. Surely, if you are right in what you say, you will find at least ONE site amongst those billions to back you up and claim Paris with the world's largest metro.
> 
> And please, no further insults. It really makes you look like your backed against a brick wall.
> 
> I'll suggest you start searching.


Well, actually, I wanted to post you a PM to say that I was sorry about it. I'm not even sure that Paris system would be the "largest in the world" if we counted the RER, and actually I honnestly don't really care about comparing such figures as it seems pointless to me. Every systems are different. They are organized locally in a larger frame involving not simply subway systems, but also trains, bus, tramways or in the case of Sydney, even ships. Public transports even depend on road facilities.

Anyway, the problem with the RER (especially lines C and D) is that you cannot clearly considering it as a subway, however it would be even more wrong to qualify them as commuter rails. As much in London than in New York, I've been shocked about the way were organized the subway networks. They aren't about fluidifying the circulation in the city center, as in Paris, but they go deep into purely residential areas... something the métro in Paris doesn't do. Hence, I got the feeling, especially in London, that actually it wasn't a métro system, but a system of 12 RER lines.

All systems are different because all cities are structurally different.


----------



## Justme

^ now that's a lot more reasonable. I appreciate it.

This is how I see the RER. It's a hybrid system based on a suburban and metro network combined.

I also admit that the RER is the closest thing such a hybrid network can be to a full metro (without in my opinion actually being a full metro). It has the high frequencies, it is fully urban, but it is also a network where the larger of it's two sides (metro or suburban) seems still to be getting people from the suburbs to the city. For me, and I have travelled on it quite a bit, it reminds me of the S-bahns in Germany, although far more extensive than most in the central area.

I also know the London Underground goes far out into the suburbs. But the underground still has a massive network in the central area where the bulk of it's passenger traffic is. Therefore, it qualifies as a metro. (There is no doubt the longer lines, especially the metropolitan, operate to being people into the city like a suburban network though) But when one travels around central London, the network certainly doesn't feel commuter in anyway.

As for Sydney, it's a hybrid of three systems. The RER type service in the central area (though lower frequencies), a suburban system in the middle (much like the other suburban systems of Paris) and a regional or local intercity system (like the R-bahns in Germany). In Sydney's case though, it is by far more leaning towards the suburban and Regional network than RER (of the three parts in the hybrid). Few people in Sydney use the system for getting around downtown, almost all use it to get from and to the suburbs or wider metro area.

I would personally love to see the RER certified as a metro. I love the idea of Paris then having the biggest metro system in the world. But in it's current setup, I still see it with three distinctive systems. (I presume there is a 4th regional network above that of which hasn't been discussed where one commutes from further out in the metro or nearby external towns)

And I'll tell you one other thing. Despite all my debating, I actually believe that Paris has the most impressive rail network of any city in the world. Overall, it may not be as large as Tokyo's or London's, but in terms of service, quality and design it certainly is in my opinion the best. It also has some fine history to boot (always important to me in a rail network)

So please don't think my opinion on the RER status is anything derogatory of Paris or it's network.


----------



## Frog

Justme said:


> (I presume there is a 4th regional network above that of which hasn't been discussed where one commutes from further out in the metro or nearby external towns)


I have heard of one before, would this be what you mean? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TER_(train_network)


----------



## invincible

Sydneysiders might not use the underground part of the network to quickly get around the city because of the lack of zone-based ticketing but us Melburnians will use the Zone 1 daily wherever we can. There's only five stations in the underground loop, but fifteen lines converge there so it makes for a decent service around the CBD grid. I'd like to see RER quality signalling there though - some lines are only shuttles during peak because they can't all fit into the loop.

And I think that the term commuter rail can cause plenty of confusion due to the different uses of the term around the world. We can use it to refer to our suburban systems that generally run both on and off peak at a decent frequency with stops about 1-2km apart on average, with distances increasing as we reach the countryside. Whereas the commuter rail in North America generally runs only in peak at relatively low frequencies with higher capacity trains that have a greater distance between stations, allowing for high speed.


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## Metropolitan

Justme said:


> I also know the London Underground goes far out into the suburbs. But the underground still has a massive network in the central area where the bulk of it's passenger traffic is. Therefore, it qualifies as a metro. (There is no doubt the longer lines, especially the metropolitan, operate to being people into the city like a suburban network though) But when one travels around central London, the network certainly doesn't feel commuter in anyway.


That's exactly the same with the RER. Otherwise I wouldn't have corrected your affirmations. Obviously you don't realize it, but most jobs aren't centered on the City of Paris where is the métro network, they are in the Hauts-de-Seine _and_ the west part of the City of Paris. But even without mentionning this, the RER is clearly used as a subway by Parisians themselves (those living in the historical borders of Paris).



> As for Sydney, it's a hybrid of three systems. The RER type service in the central area (though lower frequencies), a suburban system in the middle (much like the other suburban systems of Paris) and a regional or local intercity system (like the R-bahns in Germany). In Sydney's case though, it is by far more leaning towards the suburban and Regional network than RER (of the three parts in the hybrid). Few people in Sydney use the system for getting around downtown, almost all use it to get from and to the suburbs or wider metro area.


And this is why the Sydney system can't by no mean be compared with the RER ! As the RER even in the historical Paris, is used as a subway line to transit from one district to another.



> I would personally love to see the RER certified as a metro. I love the idea of Paris then having the biggest metro system in the world.


Stop with this. The métro _with the_ RER makes only 700 km of network, it's below Tokyo's network for instance. The RER isn't the monster you imagine it is.



> But in it's current setup, I still see it with three distinctive systems. (I presume there is a 4th regional network above that of which hasn't been discussed where one commutes from further out in the metro or nearby external towns)


I fail to see which regional network you're talking about. There's no TER in Ile-de-France. The suburban rails, known as Transilien, is the most extensive rail system in the region.



> And I'll tell you one other thing. Despite all my debating, I actually believe that Paris has the most impressive rail network of any city in the world. Overall, it may not be as large as Tokyo's or London's, but in terms of service, quality and design it certainly is in my opinion the best. It also has some fine history to boot (always important to me in a rail network)


Actually, once again I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree. The Parisian network is completely inadapted to the needs of the city. It's based in a 19th century vision of Paris which was already at that time completely screwed up. If so much efforts have been made and so many tunnels have been built since the 70's, it's exactly because of the inadequacy between the supply and the demand in Paris public transportation. And that inadequacy persists today.

Where are the main employment centers in Paris ? They are in a belt _around_ the city of Paris where is the métro : St-Denis, Levallois, Neuilly, La Défense (Courbevoie, Puteaux), Suresnes, Boulogne, Issy-les-Moulineaux. In the City of Paris, only the 17th and the 8th arrondissement are really employment poles. What I try to say is simply that the economical center of Paris is shifted at the West of Paris historical center. And unfortunately, public transportation is based on the historical borders of Paris and as such inadequate to the demand.


----------



## Justme

I can't believe you are still going on about this. You really seem quite obsessed,

You do realize that this is a thread about the London Underground don't you?


----------



## Metropolitan

Justme said:


> I can't believe you are still going on about this. You really seem quite obsessed,
> 
> You do realize that this is a thread about the London Underground don't you?


I do. And I'm really sorry to have been so off-topic. However I considered it to be polite to answer you.


----------



## hkskyline

*London Underground - New Strike Threats*

*Tube network faces new strike threats *
By ANDREW TAYLOR 
3 December 2005
Financial Times

Large parts of the London Underground are facing severe disruption over Christmas and the new year due to a series of disputes over staffing, safety and working conditions. About 1,800 engineers employed by Metronet, which maintains large parts of the system, will stage three days of strikes in the week beginning December 19 unless a row over contracting out of work is resolved, the RMT transport union warned yesterday. 

The union also is to ballot train drivers for industrial action "short of a strike" because of concerns over the contracting-out maintenance work. Station staff are to be balloted in a separate row over the working week. The RMT has threatened a possible strike by station staff on New Year's eve. 

Workers on the Docklands Light Railway in London, meanwhile, are to be balloted for industrial action over a pay dispute and could call a strike on January 6 to coincide with the annual Boat Show, said the union. But it has called off a strike on Monday by booking office staff at South Eastern Trains after making progress in a dispute over job losses.


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## Tubeman

Ah, another year, another raft of strike threats

Interestingly there has only been one network-wide strike since Tim O'Toole took over 3 years ago... Unfortunately the frequent threats if strikes are enough to give the travelling public the impression we're 'always on strike'.


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## sfgadv02

Thats what my impression is on London's underground. I have been reading this guy's blogring everyday and everytime I see, there is some sort of strike. lol.....


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## Tubeman

sfgadv02 said:


> Thats what my impression is on London's underground. I have been reading this guy's blogring everyday and everytime I see, there is some sort of strike. lol.....


As I have said, its false really. There's a lot of threats but very little action


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## Quente

Tubeman - 

Do you personally feel there is any reason to strike over the disputes cited in the article (i.e., staffing, safety and working conditions)? How about your driver's - are they generally satisfied with their jobs?

Based on your previous posts, it seems like the compensation is quite reasonable. Though I have to say, the thought of someone throwing themselves in front of my train would certainly be one of the hazards of the job.

Best - Kent


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## sfgadv02

Tubeman said:


> As I have said, its false really. There's a lot of threats but very little action


Thx for clearing that up, I was like why is there a strike like everyday?


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## Tubeman

Quente said:


> Tubeman -
> 
> Do you personally feel there is any reason to strike over the disputes cited in the article (i.e., staffing, safety and working conditions)? How about your driver's - are they generally satisfied with their jobs?
> 
> Based on your previous posts, it seems like the compensation is quite reasonable. Though I have to say, the thought of someone throwing themselves in front of my train would certainly be one of the hazards of the job.
> 
> Best - Kent


Its a good job, no doubt about it. Compared to nurses Tube Drivers are paid huge amounts for what they do.

Most of the strike threats are due to the egos and political aims of the Trade Unions, they do not generally have their staff's best interests at heart. Case in point, immediately after 7/7 the vile Bob Crowe (leader of the RMT Union) started shouting for Guards to be reintroduced whilst mangled bodies were still being pulled out of Tube Trains. Guards would never have prevented suicide bombings and indeed it would be logical for a bomber to stand next to the Guard and so they would be greatly endangered I think. Why did he want them reinstated? 5,000 Guard jobs = 5,000 new RMT members = £600,000 extra per year for RMT coffers through contributions.

The Trade Unions are corrupt gravy trains who expolit their members 100x more that LUL ever could.


----------



## officedweller

*Docklands Light Railway London City Airport extension opens*

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=615

*Mayor opens Docklands Light Railway London City Airport extension*

Mayor of London Ken Livingstone and Minister for Transport Karen Buck today opened the Docklands Light Railway extension at the new London City Airport station. 

They were joined by Colin Jackson, star of BBC's Strictly Come Dancing and a champion hurdler, Lord Coe and Olympic Gold medallist Denise Lewis.

The London City Airport extension runs from Canning Town to King George V station at North Woolwich via London City Airport, and will play an important part in London's transport plans for the 2012 Olympic Games.

The line has four new stations which now connect local and airport passengers direct into the Tube system at Canning Town. 

Mayor Ken Livingstone, said: "The Docklands Light Railway City Airport extension is a vital new transport link which has been delivered on time and on budget. 

"We are now starting to see the benefits of Transport for London's £10bn 5-year Investment Programme.

"In December we will be expanding the capacity of the Jubilee line with another carriage on every train. 

"The Docklands Light Railway extension will open up access to jobs and housing in the local area". 

The 8,000 residents living on the route will have three new stations at West Silvertown, Pontoon Dock and King George V, providing better access to jobs and leisure facilities as well as generating more custom for local businesses.

Passengers flying in and out of London City Airport will also enjoy faster, easier and cheaper journeys into Canary Wharf, the City and central London.

*Key transport milestones*

Lord Coe, Chairman of London 2012, said: "Having only last week agreed with the International Olympic Committee the key transport milestones towards 2012, this is timely and impressive evidence of London's ability to deliver on its promises.

"London will be ready to host an outstanding Games with progress of other key transport schemes already well underway". 

Karen Buck, Transport Minister, said: "People who live and travel in London continue to benefit from the investments in its transport system.

"This is the fourth extension since the DLR opened, improving things still further.

"It will keep on growing - we are already looking forward to the extension to Woolwich.

"One of the reasons behind our successful bid for the 2012 Games was that much of what is needed already exists, or is being built right now."

Jonathan Fox, Director, Docklands Light Railway, said: "This extension is tremendously significant for the Southern Royal Docks area.

"It provides London City Airport with a dedicated rail link into the heart of the City, and will be instrumental in the ongoing regeneration of the local community and the preparations and support for the London 2012 Olympic Games".

The next stage of the Docklands Light Railway expansion is the 2.5km extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich Arsenal, which will provide businesses and local communities with another major boost when it opens in early 2009.

Ends

*Notes for editors*

Stations and services 

All stations on the Docklands Light Railway network provide step-free access to trains. Stations are well integrated with other transport systems with direct interchanges with over 100 bus routes, five mainline railways, eight Underground lines and coach, taxi and riverboat services. 

London City Airport station has two entrances, one directly into the airport terminal and another on Drew Road. Both entrances have lift access and there are escalators from the main concourse area 

West Silvertown will serve Britannia Village and the Peruvian Wharf development. Pontoon Dock is adjacent to Barrier Park and planned aquarium, 'Biota!'. King George V station is in North Woolwich, sited at the northern end of Pier Road, within walking distance to the Woolwich Ferry 

Trains will run every 7-10 minutes, Monday to Saturday 05.30-00.30, Sunday 07.00-23.30. Journey times between the airport and Canary Wharf will be 14 minutes, the City in 22 minutes and central London in 35 minutes

Fares and journey times 

As part of the Transport for London network, Docklands Light Railway operates the same zonal fare system as London Underground and London Buses. 

Almost 50 per cent of airport passengers use black cabs. 
The length and cost of journeys depend on traffic and time of day but comparative costs and journey times include: 

Canary Wharf, 3.7 miles - £8.80 by cab, 30 mins; £1.30 by Docklands Light Railway, 14 mins 

The City (Bank Station), 6.6 miles - £15.00 by cab, 25 mins; £2.80 by DLR 22 mins 

Westminster, 8.6 miles - £20.40 by cab, 35 mins; £2.80 by Docklands Light Railway and Jubilee Line 28 mins

*The £140m extension has been designed and built by City Airport Rail Enterprises plc, a joint venture of AMEC plc and the Royal Bank of Scotland under a 30 year Private Finance Initiative concession. *

History of Docklands Light Railway 

Docklands Light Railway carries more than 51 million passengers a year, a figure forecast to increase to 80 million by 2009. Docklands Light Railway Limited is responsible for planning the railway's future and protecting and developing its assets. 
Since the railway opened in 1987, it has been extended on three other occasions: to Bank in 1991, Beckton and the Northern Royal Docks in 1994, and Greenwich and Lewisham in 1999.

Media Enquries: contact Sam Hart/Hilary Merrett in the Mayor's Press Office on 020 7983 4714/4753 or Adi Frost in TfL's press office on 0845 6044141. 

Non-media enquiries: contact the Public Liaison Unit on 020 7983 4100 

Out-of-hours media enquiries: contact the Duty Press Officer on 020 7983 4000


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## hkskyline

How many passengers can the city airport handle? It has a lot of potential for charter business flights.


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## micro

I had the opportunity to take a couple of photos on Saturday. The weather was a little cloudy but here they are: http://mic-ro.com/metro/london-dlr-lca.html


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## Zim Flyer

Excellent pics

:cheers:

If anyone else wants to see more pics, check this site out:

http://www.thetrams.co.uk/dlr/lcy/pictures.php

Feel free to post any pics here, but save any to your own store first, such as photobucket etc so as to save on the sites broadband, cheers.


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## officedweller

Great pics - thanks.


----------



## hkskyline

*London subway strike cancelled *

LONDON, Dec 8 (AFP) - A planned strike on London's underground railway network for 72 hours before Christmas Day has been lifted, averting severe disruption for millions of passengers, union officials said on Thursday. 

The Rail Maritime and Transport Union said it had cancelled a strike by 1,800 staff working for Tube private maintenance company Metronet after reaching agreement over outsourcing, redundancies and pensions. 

"Metronet has today agreed that there will be no outsourcing of current work to subcontractors and that there will be no compulsory redundancies of our members," said RMT general secretary Bob Crow, adding that the company had promised also to review staff pensions. 

Tube drivers had earlier this week voted for a three-day strike on the London Underground from December 21, which would have caused chaos for commuters as well as shoppers in the run-up to Christmas.


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## hkskyline

*London Underground Workers Face Criticism Over New Year's Eve Strike*

*British Subway Workers Under Fire For Holiday Strike *
1 January 2006

LONDON (AP)--British subway workers faced criticism from passengers and politicians Sunday following the end of a 24-hour strike timed to cause disruption to New Year's Eve celebrations. 

Tens of thousands of revelers defied the action to crowd into central London on Saturday night, with non-striking staff and managers ensuring the Underground railway services continued to ferry passengers across the city. 

Leaders of the RMT union, which organized the strike, had expected the subway to halt after guards and ticket office workers left their posts at 12 p.m. (1200 GMT) Saturday, in protest over new staff assignments and schedules. 

London Underground, however, managed to keep most of the Tube running, with - at the strike's peak - only 37 of the sprawling network's 275 stations closed. 

Officials said all the affected stations had reopened by early Sunday evening. 

People traveling to London's annual New Year Parade in Parliament Square faced few problems Sunday as they arrived to watch some 7,000 dancers, musicians and performers - including high school and college marching bands from across the U.S. - entertain a thousands-strong crowd. 

Organizer Bob Bone said: "We are absolutely delighted with the turnout. The streets are packed, despite worries about the transport strike." 

Mayor Ken Livingstone, in a statement released by his office, said the union had been wrong to attempt to disrupt the city's New Year celebration. 

"The Tube strike hardly materialized. The majority of London Underground staff did not agree that it made sense to punish ordinary Londoners on New Year's Eve," he said. 

Police estimated 200,000 people thronged the streets of central London to hear Big Ben chime midnight, 50,000 more than celebrated in the capital last year. 

Jodie Schaffer, 28, heading by subway to a party, said the walkout had cost subway workers public sympathy. 

She said: "This whole strike has been very inconvenient and I think has lost the Tube workers some support from the public." 

Some 4,000 of the Tube's 6,000 workers belong to the RMT union, which is planning another 24-hour strike on Jan. 8.


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## sfgadv02

I am glad that not everyone of them went on strike.


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## hkth

SHAME ON THOSE TUBE DRIVERS TO TAKE A STRIKE ON NEW YEAR'S EVE!!!!!!!!!!!!! London should learn New York to punish those workers!!!!!! :bleep: :bleep: :bleep: :bleep: :bleep: :bleep:


----------



## Tubeman

hkth said:


> SHAME ON THOSE TUBE DRIVERS TO TAKE A STRIKE ON NEW YEAR'S EVE!!!!!!!!!!!!! London should learn New York to punish those workers!!!!!! :bleep: :bleep: :bleep: :bleep: :bleep: :bleep:


None of the Drivers were on strike :|

The strike was about staff cuts in ticket offices because of the Oyster Smart cards cutting the number of transactions. That being said, no-one is losing their jobs and no-one is taking a pay cut, there's merely going to be a redistribution of resources. Staff are annoyed because 400 are being moved from their permanent location and the rosters for the ticket office staff left behind are becoming much more antisocial.

The strike was load of crap and RMT are a bunch of tossers, but get your facts stright before slagging off the Tube Drivers.


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## samsonyuen

Why were there only Covent Garden and Kings Cross' Victoria, Northern and Piccadilly lines affected in Central London?


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## JDRS

I'm glad the whole network didn't shut down, even though I ended up using the chiltern trains from Marleybone. The RMT are a disgrace on this occasion, and the reasons for the strike weren't valid in my opinion. 

Let's hope the next planned strike is called off or is insignificant in the amount of disruption it causes.


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## Tubeman

samsonyuen said:


> Why were there only Covent Garden and Kings Cross' Victoria, Northern and Piccadilly lines affected in Central London?


Stations with subterranean platforms are referred to as 'Section 12' stations, all of these must maintain a bare minimum number of staff to remain open. In these two cases they dipped below this level and had to close. Any Section 12 station can afford to lose a fair few staff and still stay open, and don't forget that not all station staff are RMT, and even then a fair few RMT members realised the strike was a farce and were not prepared to be bullied by RMT Reps and came in.

I hope Bob Crowe is enjoying his holiday on the Red Sea at the moment...


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## hkskyline

*Tube contractor criticises tests for Jubilee Line *
Andrew Clark, Transport correspondent
31 January 2006
The Guardian

One of London's busiest underground lines has enjoyed a tangible benefit from the government's controversial public -private partnership with the completion of a pounds 150m programme to attach an extra carriage to every train on the Jubilee Line. 

But the head of the consortium which delivered the improvement yesterday spoke of his frustration that stringent health and safety concerns had prolonged the project. At a ceremony to mark the completion of the programme, Terry Morgan, chief executive of Tube Lines, complained that the company was required to lengthen every train at exactly the same time, rather than running a "mixed fleet" of six and seven carriages. 

The requirement was imposed because of concerns that passengers might become confused and fall on to the track while attempting to board a seventh carriage on trains which only had six. 

"I personally never quite understood why we couldn't run a mixed fleet," said Mr Morgan, who said that this could have prevented a five-day closure of the line at the end of December. "If we had been able to do that, it would have caused less disruption in December." As a further precaution, Tube Lines was required to run each of the 59 trains along the length of the Jubilee Line five times without anybody on board, a distance of 150km, to prove that the extra carriage was safe. 

A spokeswoman for the Health and Safety Executive yesterday said 150km of tests were "appropriate" for new rolling stock and pointed out that on the east coast mainline, trains had to run for 1,000 fault-free miles before entering service.


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## nick_taylor

^^ I wonder how that compares to safety tests around the world.


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## Justme

nick-taylor said:


> ^^ I wonder how that compares to safety tests around the world.


I know that Health and Safety are taken to far stricter levels in the U.K. than in Germany. It's almost a new concept here. 

I have seen, and constantly see so many examples of unbelievable levels of poor safety from companies in Frankfurt I have started to wonder if there are any laws here.

... walking past a building site on a pedestrian sidewalk which had no barriers around it, when builders started knocking out the glass windows on the 5th floor onto the footpath below. Glass falling all around me, it was seriously dangerous, not to mention all the broken glass on the road. Duh.

... A crane lifting the giant Esprit sign onto the top floor of a major shop on the Zeil, Frankfurt's busiest shopping street, with no barriers so shoppers walked underneath the sign as it was being lifted - Each letter was over a story and a half high, and must have weighted tonnes, if one of them fell... All they had to to was put barriers around the crane and between the crane and the building... but duh.

... The other day I was walking up the steps in the Hauptbahnhof (central station) from the U-bahn. However, cleaners were high pressure spraying the steps with soapy water and didn't bother to put a barrier up. The steps were incredibly slippery. If someone from above had gone off the train and was running to catch an S-bahn or U-bahn and took the steps they would have made a nasty fall. How hard is it to barrier...? Duh.

It's like this on a daily basis here, so I can only presume that the safety tests on the train system is also as slack.

That said, the one about not have mixed 6 car and 7 car trains is totally over the top. There are levels that define good safety practice and fear of law suits - I suppose that's what it all comes down to. We have mixed length trains here all the time, and people don't walk along going "hummm, de humm, la-de-da, let's open this door I can not see, and walk through to the carriage that isn't in front of me, despite the fact I see the end of the train a few yards up... Opps, I seem to have fallen on 400Volts. Ouch, that hurts. la-de-da.. "


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## JDRS

hkskyline said:


> The requirement was imposed because of concerns that passengers might become confused and fall on to the track while attempting to board a seventh carriage on trains which only had six.


:rofl:


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## redstone

Then do not open the platform doors after the sixth carriage.. :lol:


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## hkskyline

* Going underground: *
Could we chart the branches and connections of 100 years of music using the London Underground map? 
Dorian Lynskey explains how a box of coloured crayons and a lot of swearing helped 
3 February 2006
The Guardian


_Click above to download fullversion in PDF _

It seems like a deeply implausible project: to plot the history of 20th century music on the London Underground map devised by Harry Beck in 1933. Artist Simon Patterson transformed the tube map into a constellation of famous names in his 1992 work The Great Bear, but he didn't have to make them all link up. It is, after all, a tall order to find a saint who was also a comedian. But for this one to work every interchange had to be logical in the context of musical history, an unlikely prospect. 

I started out with a packet of coloured crayons, four sheets of A4 taped together and a big box of doubt, but the different character of each line quickly lent itself to a certain genre. Pop intersects with everything else, so that had to be the Circle Line; classical music for the most part occupies its own sphere, which made it perfect for the Docklands Light Railway. There were a couple of false starts but by the end of one afternoon I had assigned genres to almost all the lines and thrashed out most of the major intersections. The key stations naturally went to the most eclectic artists, not necessarily the most important: the Beatles may be more significant than Beck but even their most devoted fan must admit that they never tried rapping. 

The system thus in place, the next couple of days were devoted to writing names in, scribbling them out (sorry, Doug E Fresh and Lynyrd Skynyrd), agonising over certain omissions, asking classical music critic Tom Service for invaluable help with the DLR, and swearing just a little bit. Amazingly, there were no calamitous blind alleys. It just seemed to make sense. 

I tried as far as possible to be objective. Some bands I cannot stand are in here, while some that I love dearly aren't. I also followed chronology wherever the path of the line allowed it. Each branch line represents a sub-genre: rock sprouts off into grunge and psychedelia when it reaches South-West London; hip-hop diverges, north of Camden, into old school and New York rap. If I was really lucky, the band name echoed the original station name: Highbury & Islington became Sly & the Family Stone. 

Pedants, of course, will find flaws. Musical influences are so labyrinthine that any simple equation will be imperfect. Where, for example, does pop stop and rock begin? How can you draw a decisive line between soul and funk? These are problems that have plagued record shop proprietors for decades and they're not going to be solved here. But I think all of these choices are justifiable given the limitations of the form. 

Other people will quibble with omissions - it's a shame, for example, that the Circle Line constantly runs in tandem with either the District or Metropolitan lines, thus leaving no room for pure pop acts such as Kylie Minogue and the Pet Shop Boys. I should also point out that, to keep my head from exploding, I limited the remit to western, predominately Anglo-American music. Then there are those changes necessitated by London Underground's understandable sensitivity to explosive references: arrividerci, Massive Attack. For some reason, they also took exception to the late rapper Ol' Dirty Bastard. 

But this is not some definitive history of music. It's an experiment to see if one intricate network can be overlaid on a completely different one. The elegance and logic of Harry Beck's design - its combination of bustling intersections, sprawling tributaries, long, slanting tangents and abrupt dead ends, all sucked into the overturned wine bottle of the Circle Line - seems to spark other connections and appeal to the brain's innate desire for patterning and structure. Plus it's fun, as any piece of music journalism created with coloured crayons should be. I hope you like it. 

Tell us what you think of the map at www.guardian.co.uk/arts Buy the map at www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk Special thanks to Chris Townsend at Transport for London and Andrew Jones at London Underground.


----------



## Bitxofo

^^Original and nice idea.^^
:wink2:
ThankS


----------



## JDRS

From BBC News 

*Thousands join Tube strike vote*

Thousands more Tube workers are to be balloted on strikes in a continuing row over industrial relations.

A total of 1,500 train drivers have already voted on the issue with the result due on Thursday.

A further 5,000 workers, including signallers and station staff, will now be joining the vote, the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union (RMT) said.

London Underground (LU) said: "There is no more justification for this ballot than the last one."

*"Playground tactics"*

Mike Brown, of LU, said the company was committed to consultation with its employees and trade unions "using our agreed procedures".

The RMT claims LU has undermined industrial relations "right across the company".

But Roger Evans, chairman of the London Assembly Transport Committee, said a strike would be unnecessary and "totally out of order".

He said the unions were "resorting to bullying tactics to achieve their goals" and called for them to stop.

*'Ignoring procedures'*

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said that the issues affecting train operators still had to be resolved.

Train drivers belonging to the RMT and Aslef unions have been voting over issues including policy on signals passed at danger, health and safety, harassment and discipline.

Mr Crow said the RMT executive had now agreed to ballot all other Tube members.

He said that LU was "ignoring its own procedures and trying to impose changes and bypass its established negotiating machinery".


----------



## andysimo123

Tubeman I think I have just seen you on the TV. On that program called tube, the one where that train breaks down?


----------



## Tubeman

andysimo123 said:


> Tubeman I think I have just seen you on the TV. On that program called tube, the one where that train breaks down?


:yes:


----------



## Tubeman

Did I match my online persona?


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## andysimo123

Tubeman said:


> Did I match my online persona?


Well you seemed petty normal compared to some of the others on the program. There was this women with her tits hanging on the floor and this other guy who looked like someone had tugged on his balls for a week.

Also I recommend you stick an ad on my site, to sell more copys of your book. Am getting like 7-8,000 hits a week and its only been online two weeks.


----------



## hkskyline

*Children to get free rides on London subways *

LONDON, March 9, 2006 (AFP) - Children under the age of 11 will be able to ride London's Undergound subway system and the Docklands Light Railway for free from April 2, Mayor Ken Livingstone announced Thursday. 

The free rides will be available to youngsters accompanied by an adult from 9:30 am on weekdays and all day on weekend and public holidays, said Livingstone, who oversees public transport policy. 

Under-16s have been able to travel for free on Londons buses and trams since September last year, under a scheme that will be extended to under-18s in full-time education this September. 

"Free Tube travel for under-11s will help make visiting Londons many attractions more affordable, widen the horizons of young Londoners and encourage the next generation to use public transport as much as possible," the mayor said.


----------



## sfgadv02

Yea, they have free rides for NYC student that attends high school and below.


----------



## Tubeman

hkskyline said:


> *Children to get free rides on London subways *
> 
> LONDON, March 9, 2006 (AFP) - Children under the age of 11 will be able to ride London's Undergound subway system and the Docklands Light Railway for free from April 2, Mayor Ken Livingstone announced Thursday.
> 
> The free rides will be available to youngsters accompanied by an adult from 9:30 am on weekdays and all day on weekend and public holidays, said Livingstone, who oversees public transport policy.
> 
> Under-16s have been able to travel for free on Londons buses and trams since September last year, under a scheme that will be extended to under-18s in full-time education this September.
> 
> "Free Tube travel for under-11s will help make visiting Londons many attractions more affordable, widen the horizons of young Londoners and encourage the next generation to use public transport as much as possible," the mayor said.


Not quite as good for the little darlings as the headline implies, as it would be of no use to schoolchildren, but I think its good as it should encourage off-peak and weekend usership. In fact, this would probably make money as an initiative by coaxing more families onto the tubes at weekends and during school holidays.


----------



## chico_pastor

For me london Undergound is one of the world's metro systems with more character...It has an incredible history and for me, it's really a pleasure going to London just to see LU.
Here's a picture that I've taken on the 22/03/2005 at Green Park station(at nighT)


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## UD2

ok I've never been to London

but from these pictures, the seating inside the trains seem unneedingly comfortable.

Is that the case systemwide? how does that do for maintiance?


----------



## Tubeman

UD2 said:


> ok I've never been to London
> 
> but from these pictures, the seating inside the trains seem unneedingly comfortable.
> 
> Is that the case systemwide? how does that do for maintiance?


Well I don't think anyone's complaining! "Excuse me, my seat is too comfortable!"

All trains have soft seats; some older stocks have sprung seats like a sofa, newer stocks have foam padding under the fabric.

I'd actually like to suppose its cheaper to maintain, because hard plastic seats are crying out to be tagged or scratched with graffiti, therefore they need to be cleaned much more often.

The fabric ('moquette') is quite clever in that the more heavily used it is the brighter and 'cleaner' it looks, as the fibres get compacted down it becomes shinier.


----------



## hkskyline

*Some subway lines close*
Bloomberg
1 April 2006

The Waterloo & City line on the London Underground will close down for five months starting Saturday for construction work, forcing 40,000 daily travelers to find alternative routes. 

The 107-year-old line will get new track, signal and security equipment, said Transport for London. The line is scheduled to reopen Sept. 1. 

Partial shutdowns will also begin on weekends this month on the Northern and Central lines. Partial closures will affect the Victoria line from April 8 to 17 and the Piccadilly line starting in May.


----------



## sweek

I saw it on BBC London News yesterday, it's quite impressive to see them lift up train carriages.


----------



## Tubeman

I got a shock yesterday afternoon... I was in the car with my Sister waiting at lights to cross the A4 in Chsiwick and a Waterloo & City Line carriage went past on a low-loader!


----------



## nick_taylor

hkskyline said:


> *Some subway lines close*
> Bloomberg
> 1 April 2006
> 
> The Waterloo & City line on the London Underground will close down for five months starting Saturday for construction work, forcing 40,000 daily travelers to find alternative routes.
> 
> The 107-year-old line will get new track, signal and security equipment, said Transport for London. The line is scheduled to reopen Sept. 1.
> 
> Partial shutdowns will also begin on weekends this month on the Northern and Central lines. Partial closures will affect the Victoria line from April 8 to 17 and the Piccadilly line starting in May.


Its unfortunate - but it has to be done now rather than after an accident or when service levels get seriously bad.


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## wwwsam

Ugly, very uncomfortable inside.


----------



## El_Greco

^ What about outside?


----------



## Tubeman

wwwsam said:


> Ugly, very uncomfortable inside.


Who or what are you referring to?


----------



## CharlieP

El_Greco said:


> ^ What about outside?


*Very* uncomfortable, and not to be recommended on the Yerkes lines


----------



## hkskyline

*Mayor's Envy as Shanghai Metro Outstrips Tube *
12 April 2006
The Evening Standard

LONDON'S Tube leaders today visited the world's fastest-growing underground system - and admitted they were jealous at its rate of progress, writes Ross Lydall. 

Mayor Ken Livingstone and London Underground managing director Tim O'Toole travelled on the Shanghai metro, which will be the world's biggest in 2012. 

Opened in 1994, it is used by three million passengers a day, a million fewer than London. It is a quarter the size of the Tube, but with six lines under construction it will match London by 2010 and overtake it in 2012. 

Improvements to London's Tube will take 30 years under the £20 billion public-private partnership. The Mayor blamed an overcomplicated planning process and his difficulty in raising cash for the slower progress. 

He said: 'I come here with the tinge of regret. Only a few years ago Shanghai embarked on this construction. In five years it will have surpassed the London Underground, constructed over a century ago. That is a great achievement.' Mr O'Toole, in Shanghai with the Mayor on a cultural exchange, said that in the next six years London would only be able to upgrade signalling on two of 12 lines. 

Meanwhile, Poems on the Underground is moving to the Shanghai metro, with commuters able to enjoy work by poets including Blake and Wordsworth.


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## onetwothree

Shanghai Metro will become one of the worlds biggest (like top 3 or something?) underground systems in the world in only 16 years from opening! Holy cow!


----------



## Jue

It was from sheer necessity though. Shanghai has twice the population of London, living in less land area. Getting around by bus is absolutely awful; I often make better time on foot during rush hour.

About London: in what way is the approval process for Tube upgrades difficult? Is is just a NIMBY attitude to construction, or does it go much further than that?


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## Insignia

well Shanghai is ahead of many British cities...


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Happy Birthday


----------



## DiggerD21

Happy birthday!
100 years ago the construction just started for Hamburg's first metro line. This is commemorated at some stations with old black-white postersize photos of the construction phase. Also with banners in the carriages and with flyers telling the story. I wonder what they do in six years when the centenniary of the opening of the first metro line takes place.


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## hkskyline

*London Transport Fares Surge Again for 2007*

*London transport fares surge again for 2007 *










LONDON, Jan 2, 2007 (AFP) - As usual for the first day back at work in the new year, London commuters were groaning Tuesday about fare rises on what is already one of the world's busiest and most expensive public transport systems. 

The price of a single Underground train journey in the city centre rose by a third to four pounds (eight dollars, six euros), while bus tickets rose by the same fraction to two pounds. 

The tariffs are designed to encourage commuters to switch to the "Oyster" electronic smart card, where fares have been frozen at 1.50 pounds on the Tube and one pound on the bus, though off-peak bus fares rise 20 pence to one pound. 

Tourists are likely to be hit hard by the measures as many are unlikely to have signed up for an Oyster card. 

In Paris, the cheapest ticket costs 1.40 euros, in Tokyo it is just over one euro and in New York it costs two dollars. 

"The headlines about big cash fare increases today show that the savings are now to be found on Oyster with many Oyster fares now half the cost of the cash alternative," said London Mayor Ken Livingstone. 

London's mainline rail commuters faced average price rises of 4.3 percent, which is above the July inflation rate of three percent -- the date and level set by the government for calculating the price hikes. 

Christian Wolmar, a commentator for London's Evening Standard newspaper, wrote: "The move towards Oyster may be sensible, but it should not be used as a heavy tax on tourists. 

"Our transport system is the lifeblood of the capital, on which depends the whole British economy. Fleecing commuters rather than investing properly isn't just wrong-headed and unfair. It's counter-productive." 

Katherine Burr, a sales executive from Sevenoaks, south of London, told the newspaper: "It really ticks me off to pay more money but what can you do? 

"The train service was really bad towards the end of last year. The connections never add up, services are breaking down and then they charge more money." 

Commenting on the rail fares, Chris Grayling, the main opposition Conservatives' transport spokesman, said: "This is further evidence that high fares are a deliberate part of government strategy to tackle overcrowding on trains. 

"We can't expect people to leave their cars at home if they are being priced off the railways."


----------



## Tubeman

Bollocks. If people bothered to get Oyster they'd find fares have been frozen for a second year, which is effectively a reduction considering inflation. And its not a tax on tourists, tourists are perfectly able to purchase Oyster for a £3 deposit returnable when they leave... Its no different to other cities with a smartcard system like Singapore.


----------



## kub86

From a tourist's perspective, it looks rather shady. Why raise fares to $8??? That's unreal. If the Tube really wanted people to switch to Oyster, they would just do away with the fare system and make Oyster mandatory to all. The majority of people who don't have oyster are who? Tourists (I think). 

So put some oyster vending machines in the stations and make them required instead of forcing some insane fare on people who aren't in the 'know' about the smartcards. And in most places, don't you have to be a resident to have one? I'm in Lyon and only locals can get them.

But thanks for letting me know that non-londoners can get Oyster. When I go there this weekend (for the first time!!) I'll make sure to get one.  Yay!

Also, does anybody know a site that has a site of metro budgets? Like the percentage of fares that cover operating costs? Can't find any...


----------



## kub86

From a tourist's perspective, it looks rather shady. Why raise fares to $8??? That's unreal. If the Tube really wanted people to switch to Oyster, they would just do away with the fare system and make Oyster mandatory to all. The majority of people who don't have oyster are who? Tourists (I think). 

So put some oyster vending machines in the stations and make them required instead of forcing some insane fare on people who aren't in the 'know' about the smartcards. And in most places, don't you have to be a resident to have one? I'm in Lyon and only locals can get them.

But thanks for letting me know that non-londoners can get Oyster. When I go there this weekend (for the first time!!) I'll make sure to get one.  Yay!

Also, does anybody know a site that has a site of metro budgets? Like the percentage of fares that cover operating costs? Can't find any...


----------



## sarflonlad

kub86 said:


> From a tourist's perspective, it looks rather shady. Why raise fares to $8??? That's unreal. If the Tube really wanted people to switch to Oyster, they would just do away with the fare system and make Oyster mandatory to all. The majority of people who don't have oyster are who? Tourists (I think).
> 
> So put some oyster vending machines in the stations and make them required instead of forcing some insane fare on people who aren't in the 'know' about the smartcards. And in most places, don't you have to be a resident to have one? I'm in Lyon and only locals can get them.
> 
> But thanks for letting me know that non-londoners can get Oyster. When I go there this weekend (for the first time!!) I'll make sure to get one.  Yay!
> 
> Also, does anybody know a site that has a site of metro budgets? Like the percentage of fares that cover operating costs? Can't find any...



They are doing away with cash fares - this is the whole point i.e. forcing people to get Oyster. You can get Oystercards from tourist boards in the USA as I understand.

If you just said 'tomorrow, there will be no cash fares' you'd have chaos...


----------



## hkskyline

It's not hard to get an Oyster anyway although the cash fare amount does seem excessive. I think I still have my Oyster stashed somewhere.


----------



## sweek

You get an Oyster, you hand it in again and get your £ 3 plus whatever's left on it if you use prepay back. It's really easy.


----------



## sfgadv02

Wow $8 USD? People are already complaining the fare being $2 in NY...


----------



## hkth

kub86, why don't you buy a Travelcard instead (Get a passport sized photo as well for 7-day Card), as you won't stay London for long? You may check it on The Tube Website.

What a shame for London the most expansive city on the public transport now!!! :bash: :bash: :bash:


----------



## ignoramus

Tubeman said:


> Bollocks. If people bothered to get Oyster they'd find fares have been frozen for a second year, which is effectively a reduction considering inflation. And its not a tax on tourists, tourists are perfectly able to purchase Oyster for a £3 deposit returnable when they leave... Its no different to other cities with a smartcard system like Singapore.


Londoners have it good in a sense. In Singapore the S$3 deposit (1 pound) is actually non refundable as its to cover the cost of making the card (If was refundable until about two years ago). After all, any card that is sold is sold at a loss apparently. And if a card is not used it becomes a liability to the company.


----------



## ignoramus

Its freaking scary to charge people the equivilent of 12 Singapore dollars or 4 pounds for a one station trip for instance. The same would cost about 0.33 pound in Singapore. But I guess the investments in transport in London are worth it?

Its certainly an extreme way to totally get people off paying cash. I would definitely buy an oyster when I visit London.


----------



## MelbourneCity

Are Oyster cards readily available to tourists???

I'll probably be in London late this year - I sure aint forking out close to $15 to ride a few stops on the tube.


----------



## hkskyline

*Travelcard Fares*
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2007/one-day/travelcard-day.asp

You can get a Travelcard on an Oyster :
https://sales.oystercard.com/oyster/lul/guestSingleProductConfig.do?productType=PPT

"For each Oyster card, the system automatically adds up the cost of each pay as you go journey made that day on Tube, DLR, Buses, Trams and participating National Rail services.

When the total cost reaches a pre-determined limit, a cap is applied and further journeys made in the same zones are free for the rest of the day."


----------



## eomer

hkskyline said:


> The tariffs are designed to encourage commuters to switch to the "Oyster" electronic smart card, where fares have been frozen at 1.50 pounds on the Tube and one pound on the bus, though off-peak bus fares rise 20 pence to one pound.
> 
> Tourists are likely to be hit hard by the measures as many are unlikely to have signed up for an Oyster card.


Is the Oyster card more interesting than Offpeak Travelcard for a few days staying ?


----------



## hkskyline

eomer said:


> Is the Oyster card more interesting than Offpeak Travelcard for a few days staying ?


I used an Oyster for my London visit. The good thing is if I don't log enough days to make a Travelcard worthwhile, I only pay the individual trips. Oyster automatically calculates the cheapest combination for you. However, I'm not sure how the Off-peak Travelcard works, although Oyster does support Travelcards :

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2007/one-day/travelcard-day.asp


----------



## Justme

For those wondering about Oyster cards for tourists, yes, they are easily purchased when arriving at your first station. I done this in Heathrow once and got a weeks travel card for Zone's 1&2 and a £10 top up on it.

What this meant, was of cause if I travel anywhere in zone 1&2 for a week it was part of the weekly pass. However, I started my journey in Heathrow and would end it there, so that was taken off the £10 credit I added to the card. It only charged from Heathrow (zone 6) to zone 3 which after that my weekly travelcard (zone 1/2) came into play.

It worked pretty well, and I still have the card, so when I next went to London, I just topped it up.

I liked the price capping as well. Let's say I had the weekly travel pass for zones 1/2. This is fine for unlimited travel on all buses, trains, tube, DLR etc if it's in zone 1/2. But say one day in that week I need to travel extensively through theouter zones, say up to zone 4. When I leave zone 2, it will charge me extra from the credit I have on the card, but will stop charging me when this reaches the price of a daily travel card for that zone. If I was buying single fares, it would keep adding up, but you don't have to think about it with the card, as you know it will stop once it reaches the cap. Brilliant idea.

As a tourist, my only gripe was that at the time, I couldn't purchase one online as I didn't live in Britain, or top one up online like you could in the UK. However, I don't know if they have changed this now - it would be handy as it would save me lining up when I got to Heathrow, but not too important.

Oddly enough they never charged me the £3 deposit ???

One other point that I don't like, I often stay with family in Hemel Hempstead. This is 25minutes from central London, but not on the underground. Sadly, despite being so close, the Oyster card doesn't work from there, so I still then have to buy a paper travel ticket for London - this should be fixed!

So, for those gasping at the £4 for a single fare, no, you don't have to pay that. Just get an Oyster like everyone else and it's £1.5


----------



## Skabbymuff

what happens when everyone has oyster cards? how will the system cope in the loss of revenue created by insanely high cash payments? by hiking the prices right up on the oyster card i suspect.


----------



## chiccoplease

If they want tourists to get Oyster cards, they could start by installing Oyster vending machines and removing the cash ones (what's the current ratio? 1 Oyster (with a huge qeue) to 20 cash?). Besides, it's not that easy for foreigners to even figure out where to get the Oyster card. Do they want to spend 20 minutes in line, too? The whole measure aims at ripping off the visitors, nothing else.


----------



## kub86

I just got back from my first trip to London. My host already bought me the day-pass so I couldn't get an oyster.  But the pass worked well. How much does it cost to make a plastic oyster card?


----------



## Tubeman

kub86 said:


> I just got back from my first trip to London. My host already bought me the day-pass so I couldn't get an oyster.  But the pass worked well. How much does it cost to make a plastic oyster card?


A few quid at least... they contain a microchip


----------



## hkskyline

*Memorial to London transit bombing victims to be built in Hyde Park *
15 February 2007

LONDON (AP) - A permanent memorial to victims of the 2005 bombings of three London subway trains and a bus will be built in the city's Hyde Park, the government said Thursday. 

Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell said the 142 hectare (350 acre) park -- already home to a memorial to Princess Diana -- had been chosen because of its "prominence, history and central London location." 

In the July 7, 2005 attacks, four suicide bombers killed 52 commuters and wounded 700 during the capital's morning rush hour. 

The government had initially planned to build a monument to mark the attacks at Tavistock Square -- where one of the explosions ripped through a double-decker bus, killing 13 passengers. 

A fund of one million pounds (US$1.95 million; euro1.49 million) has been set aside to fund the memorial to those killed and injured. 

Jowell called the bombings "the worst terrorist atrocity London has ever seen." 

"A permanent memorial will provide a dignified and tranquil space for their friends and families -- and the country -- to remember them," she said in a statement. 

The government is inviting designers and landscape architects to submit proposals for the site, in the park's Lovers' Walk. 

A group of representing the victims' families said in a statement it would ensure "a suitable and fitting memorial is created to honor the lives of our loved ones."


----------



## Tubeman

Personally I think Tavistock Square would have been more appropriate... You can't move in Hyde Park for various monuments and memorials, whereas Tavistock Square is a beautiful little oasis of peace, and the scene of the most striking image of 7/7 (the #30 bus).


----------



## marrio415

london beats shanghai anyday cos china is a dump an un-civallised dump with pollution and and crap everywhere.


----------



## Tubeman

marrio415 said:


> london beats shanghai anyday cos china is a dump an un-civallised dump with pollution and and crap everywhere.


And you've just been brigged, whoever you are


----------



## LosAngelesMetroBoy

So are they going to be powerwashing the stations in the waterloo-city line as well.... all the underground stations could do with a good cleaning. But thats most public transport systems.


----------



## lasdun

Well no one can beat us for history, can't say I wouldn't mind some Shanghai size trains and aircon, but the network as I saw it (2003, so lines 1, 2, 3, 5) seemed to be full of problems that will come back to haunt them, no doubt cause by the speed odf work. The stations were two small for the passenger load and the build and design quality seemed really poor. I very much doubt there will be books and books devoted to the network in the 2140's...


----------



## Ricardo Fig

Hi there!

I am a train spotter in Portugal, and i am going to spend a few days in London, is there any problem os restriction to take a few shots on the subway? Or its tottaly forbidden?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## hkskyline

I have never had problems taking pictures on the Underground, but don't use flash. It blinds the train drivers.


----------



## Tubeman

Ricardo Fig said:


> Hi there!
> 
> I am a train spotter in Portugal, and i am going to spend a few days in London, is there any problem os restriction to take a few shots on the subway? Or its tottaly forbidden?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Technically you need to apply for a permit, but unless you're carrying around a huge professional-looking camera with a tripod I doubt any staff would stop you and ask to see one.

You might see 'Flash photography is forbidden' signs, the only reason for this is because taking a flash photograph of the front of a train as it enters a platform blinds the driver (they have just been driving through dark tunnels for the past 2 minutes), so this is a definite no-no. You'll probably get a sarcastic announcement from the driver if you do, as a former driver I can assure you its very annoying / distracting.

If you want to take pictures of trains underground, just snap the back of the train as it departs... apart from tail-lights instead of headlights it looks basically the same!


----------



## Ricardo Fig

Thanks!

I am asking because in Lisbon is highly forbidden to take photos even with a compact-size machine....its absurd and non-sense! If you smoke on the stations, no one says anything, if you take a photo, and a guard sees you, you could be in some trouble..

Its a bit late now to ask for a permit, but if i see any staff in the stations i stop by and ask. No problem about the flash, i hate photos with flash anyway, and i can understand how dangerous can be.


----------



## Tubeman

Ricardo Fig said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I am asking because in Lisbon is highly forbidden to take photos even with a compact-size machine....its absurd and non-sense! If you smoke on the stations, no one says anything, if you take a photo, and a guard sees you, you could be in some trouble..
> 
> Its a bit late now to ask for a permit, but if i see any staff in the stations i stop by and ask. No problem about the flash, i hate photos with flash anyway, and i can understand how dangerous can be.


Cool. Enjoy your stay! :cheers:

Is there anything in particular you want to photograph? Do you want any pointers?


----------



## kub86

Ha, I was too nervous to take a picture...

But I first rid the Underground in January. I was impressed. Very old, lots of delays, some trains were uber crowded, the knightsbridge station was unbelievable (someone told me Harrod's had a sale), and some trains were claustrophobically tiny ---but very colorful lol. But I absolutely loved it!! Jubilee was fun too---although the glass gates sorta took the fun out.

Also, I was surprised at how friendly the workers were. I saw a train operator ask a "hoodlum" looking type teen if he was lost. The lines to get tickets were sooooo long.


----------



## Minato ku

Of course kub86

In Lyon metro, trains are more modern, cleaner and Lyon metro has one of widest type of subway trains in europe.
But London Tube is more impressive, historic, interesting and it is a lot bigger. 
:lol:


----------



## Justme

Tubeman said:


> Technically you need to apply for a permit, but unless you're carrying around a huge professional-looking camera with a tripod I doubt any staff would stop you and ask to see one.


I've done this a few times and I have to say the efficiency of the film/media department of the London Underground is excellent. As I take my tripod and set everything up, I usually get a station staff to come with me and help clear the area directly around my shoot. But I always feel uncomfortable taking staff away from the daily jobs - I'm sure they're busy enough without having to babysit me taking pictures. 
This could never hapen in Frankfurt as most stations seem totally unmanned.


Here's a couple that I don't have up for sale so I can post them here:


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## Tubeman

^^
Excellent photos! kay:


----------



## sweek

Great photos there! I'm very interested in seeing some more.


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## Tubeman

sweek said:


> I'm very interested in seeing some more.


Yes, me too


----------



## Truepioneer

My favorite station has to be Michael Hopkin's Westminster Station.


----------



## Truepioneer

^Anyone have a pic of it with a working link???


----------



## Tubeman




----------



## thainotts

Here's your picture, True pioneer.


----------



## samsonyuen

It's a great design. But I hated it because I had to transfer from the Jubilee line to District line everyday for work (and back). It was just too many escalators for me! It's amazing how much they've fit in a (relatively) small footprint.


----------



## Bahnsteig4

Westminster is truly impressive. I visited it in 2004 and my mouth was wiiiide open. 

Even my friends who couldn't care less about public transport said they liked it.


----------



## Guest

Truepioneer said:


> ^Anyone have a pic of it with a working link???


When that happens just highlight and copy the URL inbetween the image tags. Then paste the URL into the address bar and press enter and providing it's the correct URL you will be able to see the picture.


----------



## Guest

Brilliant, I like how there is one person per bench and one bench for every cutting - very symetrical.


----------



## elkram

Tubeman said:


>


Funny to think of little old run-through Westminster station being modernised to a point as to resemble some of our stations here in Montreal. The only problem I see with the Westminster additions is their going to become real dirty coz I'd bet designers never conceptualized how to keep the abundance of extra surface areas free of dust, cobwebs, and other dirt and grime. These vaulted underground spaces look nice new, but become *so, so* muted if not cleaned only a few decades later, which is the state of our lofty underground here.


----------



## sarflonlad

elkram said:


> Funny to think of little old run-through Westminster station being modernised to a point as to resemble some of our stations here in Montreal. The only problem I see with the Westminster additions is their going to become real dirty coz I'd bet designers never conceptualized how to keep the abundance of extra surface areas free of dust, cobwebs, and other dirt and grime. These vaulted underground spaces look nice new, but become *so, so* muted if not cleaned only a few decades later, which is the state of our lofty underground here.


That's a patronising post if any... "little old run-through Westminster" - it's a brand new station built below existing lines (some of the oldest in the world) that had to be shifted at a hairline's width each day whilst they were still running. It and the whole of extension to that line is a triumph of engineering and architecture (and yes, the station has cleaners - but believe or not, subways have less particle dirt than above ground).

I encourage you to post pictures of anything similar in Montreal - I'm curious to see...


----------



## lasdun

I think the reference was to all the inaccsessable spaces, which I am certain no Tubelines/Metronet contract cleaner is ever going to touch. Westminster does look a bit grubby allready. The worst on the JLX for this problem is the glass canope at Canning town (over the escalators) looked great for about 3 minutes before the first pidgeons moved in... now it has an ugly net throw across it. 

Westminster is quite aweinspiring, but give me a cross platform interchange anyday! it's an arse to change westbound district to northbound jubilee. All the Jubilee interchanges (but canning town for DLR and Canada Water) are really annoying, a shame considering how well the Victoria planners did.


----------



## elkram

sarflonlad said:


> That's a patronising post if any... "little old run-through Westminster" - it's a brand new station built below existing lines (some of the oldest in the world) that had to be shifted at a hairline's width each day whilst they were still running. It and the whole of extension to that line is a triumph of engineering and architecture (and yes, the station has cleaners - but believe or not, subways have less particle dirt than above ground).
> 
> I encourage you to post pictures of anything similar in Montreal - I'm curious to see...


I was talking about a station most passengers and I'd pass through having becoming somewhat unrecognizable, and hoping that it maintain its fresh appearance due to being thoroughly cleaned throughout its existence.

Private money must be more impressive than a state's money hno: -- they moved an old cathedral here 20 feet back from the downtown street so it better accommodates an underground shopping mall comprising of a measly two levels underneath it -- I'd need two photos to show you, no?


----------



## Truepioneer

samsonyuen said:


> It's a great design. But I hated it because I had to transfer from the Jubilee line to District line everyday for work (and back). It was just too many escalators for me! It's amazing how much they've fit in a (relatively) small footprint.



Atleast you get a great view while standing on those escalators. Many stations can't offer that on there long escalator rides.


----------



## poshbakerloo

*Is London the only city that has to put up with tiny tube trains in tiny tunnels?*

So the sub level lines (Circle, Hammersmith&city, District, Metropolitan, East London) all have a decent tunnel size but all the deep level lines (Piccadilly, Victoria, Bakerloo, Jubilee, Waterloo&city) all have tiny tunnels about 10.5feet...are there any other cities that have tiny deep level lines?


----------



## Tubeman

Glasgow's are even smaller










Incidentally London's first 'Tube' (City & South London Railway, today part of the Northern Line) was smaller still, and was expanded in the 1920's prior to the Northern Line being created by unifying the City & South London Railway and Hampstead Tube.


----------



## icracked

^^ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, never seen anything like that in my life:lol: Small indeed.


----------



## mrstar

icracked said:


> ^^ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, never seen anything like that in my life:lol: Small indeed.


It's like having your own wee model railways living in Glasgow!


----------



## CharlieP

Half the rolling stock on the Berlin U-Bahn is only 2.3 metres wide (36cm narrower than Tube stock):


----------



## SassanPahlavi

icracked said:


> ^^ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, never seen anything like that in my life:lol: Small indeed.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## micro

CharlieP said:


> Half the rolling stock on the Berlin U-Bahn is only 2.3 metres wide (36cm narrower than Tube stock):


It's a little taller than the London one, though. 
In London I must always mind my head when standing inside the train near a door, otherwise I could lose it 

The first line in Budapest is also very narrow (2.22 m), as are many of the older subways in the world, like the ones in Paris (2.46 m) or Hamburg (2.48 m).


----------



## poshbakerloo

well i found this picture comparing the 1973 tube stock to the large A stock train (i think)...


----------



## Nephasto

^^100Km/h certainly is fast for a metro!

Also, it's understandable that the tube has high average speed, because the average distance between stations is quite big... Less stops --> Higher average speed.


----------



## Englishman

I'm pretty sure they are quite quick compared to many other underground systems. Paris will seem to take longer in a way as the stations are more closely packed so more delays. 

Rome and Brussels certainly don't seem faster, but I have not been on any other tube like train systems.

Edit: whilst typing it seems my thoughts have allready been writen by others.


----------



## dl3000

Englishman said:


> I'm pretty sure they are quite quick compared to many other underground systems. Paris will seem to take longer in a way as the stations are more closely packed so more delays.
> 
> Rome and Brussels certainly don't seem faster, but I have not been on any other tube like train systems.


Paris has a dense system but RER takes care of express routes. 

London's system is impressive, Id like to ride it someday and those are great photos.


----------



## iampuking

Nephasto said:


> ^^100Km/h certainly is fast for a metro!
> 
> Also, it's understandable that the tube has high average speed, because the average distance between stations is quite big... Less stops --> Higher average speed.


Is it? I don't really know much about subway systems across the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLmkMeUVrvc

I love this video as it shows the Central line going quite fast, but it's quite far outside of London here. However, if going on the Central line between Liverpool street and Stratford it can seem incredibly fast..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DDZTUJkN6E

Love this video as well cause it shows how noisy the Victoria line is, apparently it can give you hearing problems if you travel on it everyday :lol:


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> Fast? :nuts:


It is pretty fast actually... 40mph / 60kmh is common at many points in Central London, and certainly pretty normal top speed in outer London, with 60mph / 100kmh attainable at quite a few locations.

As has been mentioned, the stops are generally pretty far apart in Central London (compared to Paris for example), so it follows trains have more time to accelerate.


----------



## Tubeman

An illustration of the frightening speed with which Central Line trains hit platforms: They are fully ATO so can brake with much less margin for error than a driver would ever dare, plus the 'hump' profile of stations (i.e. descending gradient away from platforms, ascending up to platforms) assists deceleration:


----------



## Tubeman

^^
BTW I'd estimate it to be doing about 60kmh as it hits the platform


----------



## PresidentBjork

People go on about the London Underground but it's never been as bad as all that. Sure some of the deep level stations from the earlier part of twentieth century are a bit drab, but some of it's real nice to look at, if not a little old.

And also it's not stagnating, the Jubilee extension really is superb, and yeah it was over budget, but most be projects are in Britain, public and private, or a mixture of two as in this case. Overall, increased investment in the last decade has really made it cleaner, safer and minimized breakdowns.

In addition, it's quite reliable and fast, my only qualm is the constant shutting down of the metropolitan out past Finchley every weekend! :mad2: 

That shitty bus replacement turns the 1/2 hour journey into a 2 hour one!


----------



## micro

Tubeman said:


> ^^
> BTW I'd estimate it to be doing about 60kmh as it hits the platform


That's what I'd call good customer service. No time is wasted!


----------



## Nephasto

Tubeman said:


> plus the 'hump' profile of stations (i.e. descending gradient away from platforms, ascending up to platforms) assists deceleration:



How is that of the hump??
Is there a hump in the middle of the station, so that when entering the station trains go up and when leaving they go down?


----------



## Tubeman

Nephasto said:


> How is that of the hump??
> Is there a hump in the middle of the station, so that when entering the station trains go up and when leaving they go down?


 Like this:..___Platform___
________/.....................\____________

Ok, shit diagram! :crazy:

...So as the train enters the platform its climbing a rising gradient (aiding deceleration) and then when it departs its down a falling gradient, aiding acceleration.

The actual platform is level, the gradients are outside the station.


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> An illustration of the frightening speed with which Central Line trains hit platforms: They are fully ATO so can brake with much less margin for error than a driver would ever dare, plus the 'hump' profile of stations (i.e. descending gradient away from platforms, ascending up to platforms) assists deceleration:







That's a good'un as well. I love the growl of the train before it reaches the platform.

Do you think the Victoria line will enter stations as fast when new stock comes? and the Jub and Northern, though it will probably be less noticeable because of shorter trains I spose.


----------



## iampuking

Found videos of some Central line driver, loads of drivers eye views if anyone is interested: http://www.youtube.com/clavman92


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> That's a good'un as well. I love the growl of the train before it reaches the platform.
> 
> Do you think the Victoria line will enter stations as fast when new stock comes? and the Jub and Northern, though it will probably be less noticeable because of shorter trains I spose.


That's quite a slow approach by Central Line standards... Maybe only 30mph / 50kmh.

The Victoria Line trains will no doubt enter plaforms as fast if not faster with the new stock... They already do hit platforms at a pretty frightening speed.


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> That's quite a slow approach by Central Line standards... Maybe only 30mph / 50kmh.
> 
> The Victoria Line trains will no doubt enter plaforms as fast if not faster with the new stock... They already do hit platforms at a pretty frightening speed.


They'll be faster than the 92TS?!?!? Bloody hell.

And according to another forum, some of the cars for the new stock has arrived at Northumberland Park Depot.


----------



## poshbakerloo

London UndergrounD rocks!!!!! but why is it called London UNDERGROUND when most of it is over ground????? i think only 41-45% is below ground...


----------



## poshbakerloo

iampuking said:


> That's a good'un as well. I love the growl of the train before it reaches the platform.
> 
> Do you think the Victoria line will enter stations as fast when new stock comes? and the Jub and Northern, though it will probably be less noticeable because of shorter trains I spose.




they can sometimes take you by surprise as they sound like a low rumble for ages the suddenly burst in...


----------



## iampuking

poshbakerloo said:


> London UndergrounD rocks!!!!! but why is it called London UNDERGROUND when most of it is over ground????? i think only 41-45% is below ground...


I'm assuming it's historical reasons. When the name was thought up it was probably mostly underground, the extensions into the suburbs (then it was the middle of nowhere) where a later add-on.

I like the fact that it sets it apart from other systems across the world, most of them are called "x metro" or "y subway"


----------



## Tubeman

I think the term was first coined after a fashion with the formation of 'UERL' (Underground Electric Railways of London) in 1902. This was Charles Tyson Yerkes' company which initially accounted for the Piccadilly, Bakerloo and Northern (Charing Cross Branch) Lines only, which were all underground with a couple of minor exceptions (Piccadilly Line from Barons Court to Hammersmith + Lillie Bridge Depot, Northern Line at Golders Green + Depot, Bakerloo Line's London Road Depot). Before these three lines opened UERL also assumed control of the Metropolitan District Railway (later District Line), which bucked the trend by being mostly above ground. The 'Underground' branding was applied when the three Tube lines opened in the Mid-1900's.


----------



## city_thing

Tubeman, do you have any maps of London's original line? As in, the first first line constructed.

After all these years, I still haven't seen it.


----------



## Tubeman

city_thing said:


> Tubeman, do you have any maps of London's original line? As in, the first first line constructed.
> 
> After all these years, I still haven't seen it.


What, just the original Metropolitan Railway on its own?


----------



## city_thing

Tubeman said:


> What, just the original Metropolitan Railway on its own?


Yes, I was just wondering the route of the original metropolitan railway.

And I just realised I posted this in here instead of your Q&A section. Gosh, how embarrasing.


----------



## iampuking

The original route went from Paddington to Farringdon I believe, it's part of the Circle/H&C lines now.


----------



## sweek

I think there is an old map and some information on the original railway at Baker Street station on the Circle/H&C platforms.


----------



## iampuking

New Victoria line 2009 Stock has arrived at Northumberland Park Depot, looks great! And before anyone says anything about the small windows or mentions padded cells, the Vic is entirely underground! They look weird because they don't have any stickers on the doors or underground roundels on them yet.

http://www.metronetrail.com/default.asp?sID=1088006490140

What's good about this stock, is since it can only fit in Vic tunnels, it means we won't end up with all the new tube stocks being identicle to this one.


----------



## iampuking

I found this hilarious article, it's an old article but someone sent me it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4079135.stm

:lol:


----------



## sweek

They're looking great.  Can't wait to see them in service some time soon.


----------



## Tubeman

city_thing said:


> Yes, I was just wondering the route of the original metropolitan railway.
> 
> And I just realised I posted this in here instead of your Q&A section. Gosh, how embarrasing.


I'll let you off 

The original Metropolitan Railway was built from the H&C platforms in the GWR Paddington terminus to a station named Farringdon Street slightly to the south-west of the current Farringdon. The stations are all the same although some names have changed and the tunnels are all original 1863 vintage except through King's Cross St Pancras where the eastbound now occupies an otherwise abandoned second tunnel intended to continue the 4-tracking from St Pancras to Euston.

Physical links were built with various mainline companies: GWR at Padington, Midland at St Pancras, Great Northern at King's Cross (in both directions, although the west-facing curve was never used) and the Great Eastern at Liverpool Street when the line was extended eastwards.

At its greatest extent the Metropolitan Railway stretched out to Brill and Calvert Junction in rural Buckinghamshire, way beyond Aylesbury which remained the country terminus until the 1960's.


----------



## city_thing

You make me miss London so much tubeman.

Have you ever considered getting married to your other half on a tube train (like people do on the HK MTR)?


If not, can we get married on one? (this is the third time I've asked this, I must be getting pretty close.....)


----------



## sarflonlad

iampuking said:


> New Victoria line 2009 Stock has arrived at Northumberland Park Depot, looks great! And before anyone says anything about the small windows or mentions padded cells, the Vic is entirely underground! They look weird because they don't have any stickers on the doors or underground roundels on them yet.
> 
> http://www.metronetrail.com/default.asp?sID=1088006490140
> 
> What's good about this stock, is since it can only fit in Vic tunnels, it means we won't end up with all the new tube stocks being identicle to this one.


I still think the big windows on the Central give a perception of greater EVEN underground. 

Nice trains anyway. The Vic trains are getting quite old now - but they still work well. Let the testing commence...


----------



## sarflonlad

To add...

maybe I am seeing things the second photo - http://www.metronetrail.com/_forced...s/Image Library/Trains - Vic line/Train 1.jpg - but how can a driver fit in that cab? The side door closest to the front looks huge (and as if it wont open during operation) - but if you look through the window you can see the carriage and not the driver's cab...


----------



## Tubeman

city_thing said:


> You make me miss London so much tubeman.
> 
> Have you ever considered getting married to your other half on a tube train (like people do on the HK MTR)?
> 
> 
> If not, can we get married on one? (this is the third time I've asked this, I must be getting pretty close.....)


Haha no, sorry, I got married last Summer in a boring Town hall :laugh:

We did get driven from there to the pub in 2 Routemaster buses though


----------



## iampuking

sarflonlad said:


> I still think the big windows on the Central give a perception of greater EVEN underground.
> 
> Nice trains anyway. The Vic trains are getting quite old now - but they still work well. Let the testing commence...


I agree, the Central line always seems roomier then other tube stocks. But I think the large curved glass windows are hard to maintain/replace and are probably not as effective in an impact.


----------



## iampuking

Ken Livingstone on the tube:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/montini/417982512/

From:

http://london-underground.blogspot.com/


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> Ken Livingstone on the tube:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/montini/417982512/
> 
> From:
> 
> http://london-underground.blogspot.com/


Fair play to the guy, he uses it every day


----------



## sweek

He lives in Willesden Green doesn't he? So Willesden to London Bridge on the Jubilee line every morning?


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> Fair play to the guy, he uses it every day


He gets on the stop before me, i've seen him once.


----------



## iampuking

New pics of the Victoria line's 2009 Stock, this time it's the interior!

http://tubesnaps.fotopic.net/c1280954.html

My only quirk is that the passenger alarm buttons are a bit too easy for kids to get at. And the arm rests look very flimsy, after one trip to Walthamstow and back they'll be gone.


----------



## Tubeman

^^
We've already had serious problems with the low-level passenger alarms being set off by curious toddlers on the D Stock refurbs (designed to be accessible to people in wheeelchairs but irresistable to small children)


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> ^^
> We've already had serious problems with the low-level passenger alarms being set off by curious toddlers on the D Stock refurbs (designed to be accessible to people in wheeelchairs but irresistable to small children)


Oh god hno: 

Do you think the armrests will last long? They seem very pointless to me, too short, and not bulky enough for one's arm to rest on comfortably.

I've noticed that the door area is wider, but the width between the seats doesn't seem much wider to other stocks, its due to the fact that the walls are much thicker!


----------



## iampuking

Acemcbuller said:


> Yes. The first train will be delivered in 2009 but will not be in passenger service until 2010. The train you see in the video and another are 'pre-production' versions for testing.
> 
> 
> 
> There are no cabs in the middle of the train so there are more doors and the doors are wider. There will be shunting control panels in the two middle cars though.
> 
> Other information about the new trains:
> 
> The headroom has increased by 5cm
> The gangway will be a metre wide.
> The standing room has been increased so each train has higher capacity.
> The tip-up seats providing wheelchair/buggy spaces are in the two end cars. Platform ramps are being considered to aid access.
> Top speed will be 83mph, only a slight increase, the better speed comes from better breaking and acceleration.
> 75% of the wheels will be powered compared to 50% now.
> The signalling will be 'distance to go'
> The full loading gauge (tunnel width) has been used. This means the trains will not be able to fit into the Piccadilly line tunnels as has previously been possible..
> 
> So far they have run the test train from Northumberland Park depot down to (iirc) Tottenham Hale. They've been testing the clearances with polystyrene blocks attached to the outside of the carriages. They haven't been up to Walthamstow though because of 'electromagetnic incompatibility issues'!
> 
> The other trains is being trialled with the Westinghouse signals on the Bombardier test track in Derby.


Thanks for that!

And I assume you mean 83kph not 83mph...

As far as i'm aware thats around 50mph isn't it?


----------



## cityskyscrapers

*Photos London Underground*

Golden Oldies en left-overs.

*2002*

1.









2.










*2004*

3.









4.









5.









6.










*2005*

7.









8.









9.









10.









11.









12.









13.









14.









15.









16.









17.









18.









19.









20.









21.









22.









23.










*2006*

24.


----------



## Falubaz

nice pics. i like these ones from curved platforms most. sometimes i put them as a desktop pic


----------



## city_thing

Those pictures are like porn to me. *wipes down the screen*


----------



## Trovador

Fantastic collection! Thanks a lot, I love The Tube.


----------



## iampuking

Yuck. Bond Street's tiling was just awful. Now it's been made real boring white, though it is true to the Central London Railway's original scheme.


----------



## iampuking

Yardmaster said:


> Having just had eleven people killed and dozens others injured by a truck crashing into the third vehicle of a train crossing a level crossing ... well that was "incredibly rare" too.


Not really, there are many level crossing related incidents on the railways. The Tube doesn't have any level crossings. 

Also, The Tube has a trainstop that makes sure it doesn't pass a signal at danger, but since this train was going in the wrong direction I don't think it worked. There have only been 3 cases of near collisions in 17 years, for 1 billion passengers a year that's very few. With ATO coming to more lines (already on the Victoria and Central, coming to the Northern and Jubilee) it'll be near impossible.


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> Not really, there are many level crossing related incidents on the railways. The Tube doesn't have any level crossings.
> 
> Also, The Tube has a trainstop that makes sure it doesn't pass a signal at danger, but since this train was going in the wrong direction I don't think it worked. There have only been 3 cases of near collisions in 17 years, for 1 billion passengers a year that's very few. With ATO coming to more lines (already on the Victoria and Central, coming to the Northern and Jubilee) it'll be near impossible.


Its the first time I've heard of the incident (am on holiday  ), but it looks to me like the fatal error was when the two drivers swapped trains in the platform at Camden Town... One of them obviously became disoriented upon approaching their 'new' train and got the front and back mixed up... It sounds ridiculous, but initially easily done (unless you actually see the train enter a platform or habitually use that platform as a passenger, it isn't immediately apparent which end is which). However the driver should have immediately noticed the fact there wasn't a signal at the 'wrong' end to be obeyed and realised their error, but evidently didn't until they approached the train behind's headlights. If I was the poor driver behind who saw a set of headlights and a train approaching me I'd have likely crapped my pants!


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> Its the first time I've heard of the incident (am on holiday  ), but it looks to me like the fatal error was when the two drivers swapped trains in the platform at Camden Town... One of them obviously became disoriented upon approaching their 'new' train and got the front and back mixed up... It sounds ridiculous, but initially easily done (unless you actually see the train enter a platform or habitually use that platform as a passenger, it isn't immediately apparent which end is which). However the driver should have immediately noticed the fact there wasn't a signal at the 'wrong' end to be obeyed and realised their error, but evidently didn't until they approached the train behind's headlights. If I was the poor driver behind who saw a set of headlights and a train approaching me I'd have likely crapped my pants!


It's a pretty ridiculous mistake to make really... Is there anything they can do to prevent such incidents from happening again?


----------



## Rachmaninov

Why's it taking so damn long to introduce the new trains


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> It's a pretty ridiculous mistake to make really... Is there anything they can do to prevent such incidents from happening again?


In a similar vein there are fixed red lights at the 'wrong' end of quite a few platforms... These are normally located at stations where trains can reverse via an emergency crossover ahead of the platform. They were installed because drivers might be told 'Reverse North to South at station X' and then just change ends and proceed the wrong way out of the platform with dire consequences (at these locations they would in fact be supposed to detrain, work forward to beyond the crossover, then change ends and proceed back under a clear shunt signal).

The obvious answer therefore would be to have a permanent red light installed at the 'wrong' end of every platform from which trains are never supposed to reverse, but at the moment these 'fixed red lights' where they do exist do not have trainstops, so a train would still not be automatically stopped if it disregarded the light.


----------



## iampuking

Rachmaninov said:


> Why's it taking so damn long to introduce the new trains


I was wondering that too!


----------



## Tubeman

Rachmaninov said:


> Why's it taking so damn long to introduce the new trains


Its normal to have such a long time between initial appearaence of the prototype and full introduction: the stock names give a good clue... D78 (i.e. 1978) didn't fully replace the R and COCP stocks until (IIRC) about 1983, likewise the Northern 1996 stock didn't fully displace the 1959 stock until 2000...The year always used to denote the prototype year (although oddly the Vic 2009 stock bucks this trend), by the time its been fully tested and refinements made we're looking at 18-24 months, and then a further 18 months - 2 years for full introduction (e.g. a train a week during this period).


----------



## iampuking

What are they actually doing to the train though... call me silly but I haven't a clue!


----------



## Rachmaninov

Tubeman said:


> Its normal to have such a long time between initial appearaence of the prototype and full introduction: the stock names give a good clue... D78 (i.e. 1978) didn't fully replace the R and COCP stocks until (IIRC) about 1983, likewise the Northern 1996 stock didn't fully displace the 1959 stock until 2000...The year always used to denote the prototype year (although oddly the Vic 2009 stock bucks this trend), by the time its been fully tested and refinements made we're looking at 18-24 months, and then a further 18 months - 2 years for full introduction (e.g. a train a week during this period).



Ahh I see... but what do they do during this long period? I mean, it takes around 5 years for new planes to be designed and built and tested. The A380 took about 2 years to be built and tested and introduced. I don't really see how trains that already have their prototypes built could take that long to introduce?


----------



## mrmoopt

Why does it take so long? Partly because of heavy safety guidelines, partly because of beaurecracy/union issues.

In Melbourne it's the same.

I'm a strong lefty, but somtimes the unions can go too far.


----------



## iampuking

Video of the Victoria line opening in 1969 which I thought was rather interesting. It looks so clean! It looks like they haven't cleaned it since it opened now though!


----------



## hkskyline

*Ferrovial Could Replace Metronet As Tube Operator - Newspaper *
1 July 2007

LONDON (Dow Jones)--Spanish infrastructure company Ferrovial could replace the Metronet consortium as operator of the London Underground transport system, the Independent on Sunday reports citing Ferrovial chairman Rafael del Pino. 

Del Pino said Ferrovial has held talks with Transport for London about taking on Metronet projects, the newspaper says. However it cites a Transport for London spokesman as saying that no talks have taken place. 

Ferrovial is part of the Tube Lines consortium which is a rival to Metronet and is responsible for three London Underground tube lines. 

Metronet, which is owned by Balfour Beatty PLC (BBY.LN), WS Atkins PLC (ATK.LN), Canada's Bombardier Inc. (BBD.A.T), EDF Energy (1024251.FR) and Thames Water, has been hit by rising costs and is trying to claim back GBP1 billion of additional costs from Transport for London. 

A spokesman for Transport for London said it had "not had any talks with Ferrovial or Tube Lines with regards to taking over Metronet's contract." 

Ferrovial was not immediately available to comment.


----------



## Acemcbuller

*Derailment at Mile End*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6274604.stm

Tube maintenance firm Metronet has ordered immediate safety checks on storage facilities on the network after a train derailed during rush hour.

Metronet said initial reports suggested the derailment was caused by a loose "bale of material" inside the tunnel.


----------



## Rachmaninov

How weird...


----------



## iampuking

Bloody Metronet left a piece of corrugated iron on the track after maintanence work, apparently.

The people on the train thought it was another terrorist attack...


----------



## iampuking

Some more tube memorabilia:

http://www.davros.org/rail/culg/

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/stations.html


----------



## iampuking

Tube etiquette guide:

http://solo2.abac.com/themole/tuberules.html


----------



## iampuking

http://www.dougrose.co.uk/

Website about Charles Yerkes tile patterns in tube stations, very interesting, such a shame that many have been destroyed.


----------



## micro

iampuking said:


> http://www.dougrose.co.uk/
> 
> Website about Charles Yerkes tile patterns in tube stations, very interesting, such a shame that many have been destroyed.


Phantastic link!!


----------



## iampuking

Deppressing link if you ask me. It's doubtful that any of it will ever be preserved now that it has been partially privatised. In fact if we have a tory government it would be even worse...


----------



## micro

But interesting to learn about the underlying concept of these tilings. I've always seen the stations and wondered why some had that tiling and others not. It's of course a pity that some are clad with tons of advertising posters but maybe they will be restored in the future.


----------



## iampuking

Blame whoever an earth controlled the Tube in the 80s, there was this whole thing that was designed to 'freshen' the Tube and make it look less 'dreary', I don't see how covering beautiful yet simple Edwardian tiling with lovely enamel panels like this is going to 'freshen' anything up. Additional lines (Jubilee, Victoria) and additions have not helped matters, only recently has tiling been restored at stations. And by the way micro, a lot of the stations have been 'restored' in an inaccurate pastiche, the second pic of yours shows this.

Heres an example of a station being "freshened up", before it was beautiful green and brown (maybe not the loveliest of combinations but who cares) Edwardian tiling, which when made was seen as rather progressive. It was "freshened up" in the 80s-90s, heres how it looks today:










Gorgeous :|

And here is an example of a station that has been restored almost as an exact replica, of course with modern amenities fitted. Unfortunately, out of the 40+ stations there are very few stations that have identicle tiling to the original. And the ones left are either in bad condition, or at stations which are rarely viewed.

The pic is on this website: http://davidhenderson.fotopic.net/p42681694.html

The infracos however seem to love tiling stations in white white and more white, even though the original tiling has been destoryed, it's not like there are no archives whatsoever as that site proves. The designers know the size of the tiles (they were all the same size) and the pattern, how hard could it be? The whiteness is okay for Central line stations (as they were white from day one) but Yerkes stations? Since they are so incompetent anyway it's not like they'd have much spare money to fund protection of hertitage.


----------



## micro

It is a good thing that some of the Edwardian stations are preserved in their original state but I think slavishly preserving all of them is not necessary. They are interesting but at the same time they are merely a fashion of their time. They are not as timeless and high-quality as Moscow's marble stations are, for example, which should be preserved for a much longer time. Those Edwardian tiles are somewhat simple and not durable and they are destined to be replaced after a few decades, and it is appropriate to switch to a fresh station design then. But I'm glad that some of the Edwardian stations survive and are carefully preserved.


----------



## iampuking

I beg to differ, if something is a timeless design then it should stay. I don't agree that things that aren't overly spectacular and decadent should be the only things that are preserved. If everything looked how it was fashionable today then we mays well destroy most of Britain and replace it with futuristic crap, why can't we have old design yet the amenities updated? As has been seen at Regent's Park. You can't have day without night. Don't you think the London Underground roundel is a timeless design? Well it was designed in the 30s and has barely been altered yet looks great to this day, yet it is not over complicated and overstated, like for example the Olympic logo. Why can't old and new co-exist?

Here are the different architectural styles on the Tube:

Victorian, pre-1900- Most of the Circle, District, Metropolitan, H&C, Central line (North of Newbury Park and Leytonstone) Northern line (north of East Finchley),
Edwardian, 1900-1910- Northern (Charing Cross branch), Piccadilly line (central section) and Bakerloo line (central section)
Art Deco, 1920-1940 - Piccadilly line (north of Finsbury Park and west of Hammersmith), Central line (east of Liverpool Street and west of White City, between Leytonstone and Gants Hill) Northern line (South of Clapham South), Bakerloo line (north of Paddington),
Brutalist, 1960-1970- Victoria line, Jubilee line (Baker Street to Green Park)
"Freshened up" - Too much of the stations in the Central section
Modern - Jubilee line (between Westminster and Stratford)

See here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=14497997#post14497997

As you can see there are many architectural styles on the Tube, without having to "freshen them up" the stations are varied enough! And by the way i'm not against new things, i'm against old things being destroyed for new things. This is something I feel incredibly strongly about as you can see.


----------



## micro

iampuking said:


> Why can't old and new co-exist?
> ... ...
> As you can see there are many architectural styles on the Tube, without having to "freshen them up" the stations are varied enough! And by the way i'm not against new things, i'm against old things being destroyed for new things. This is something I feel incredibly strongly about as you can see.


Old and new can coexist very well, as I said. And they should coexist.

Of course nothing should be destroyed deliberately. It's just the natural way of everything: Station interior gets old, tiles crumble. The less durable the materials are, the more frequently do they have to be replaced. The metro operators have to refurbish things, and they have to do it economically. So they use materials that are cheap at the time being. That's probably why Embankment station changed its looks. 

Preserving historical things is usually more costly. E.g., oldstyle tiles may not be available anymore and have to be manufactured specifically for the task, and manual work is more costly today than 100 years ago. So when stations have to be refurbished, the 'natural' way is to do it using today's materials and today's style.


----------



## iampuking

micro said:


> Old and new can coexist very well, as I said. And they should coexist.
> 
> Of course nothing should be destroyed deliberately. It's just the natural way of everything: Station interior gets old, tiles crumble. The less durable the materials are, the more frequently do they have to be replaced. The metro operators have to refurbish things, and they have to do it economically. So they use materials that are cheap at the time being. That's probably why Embankment station changed its looks.
> 
> Preserving historical things is usually more costly. E.g., oldstyle tiles may not be available anymore and have to be manufactured specifically for the task, and manual work is more costly today than 100 years ago. So when stations have to be refurbished, the 'natural' way is to do it using today's materials and today's style.


I agree with you. These days the tiles are all pre-fabricated rather than individually tiled on like they were those days. I guess that's what happens when the company is no longer public and instead private. The only thing I was arguing against was whether there was any point preserving them or not, but when I put my economic hat on (which is UBER hard for me) it doesn't work very well.


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> I agree with you. These days the tiles are all pre-fabricated rather than individually tiled on like they were those days. I guess that's what happens when the company is no longer public and instead private. The only thing I was arguing against was whether there was any point preserving them or not, but when I put my economic hat on (which is UBER hard for me) it doesn't work very well.


I'm not quite with you... tiles are tiles are tiles, they are manufactured and installed in the same way in 2007 that they were in 1907.

And the 'golden age' of Yerkes stations in the 1900's was the product of private enterprise: sheer capitalism. Public sector was an unknown concept in 1900.


----------



## micro

But the letter tiles as in the Kentish Town station probably require expensive manual work.


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> I'm not quite with you... tiles are tiles are tiles, they are manufactured and installed in the same way in 2007 that they were in 1907.
> 
> And the 'golden age' of Yerkes stations in the 1900's was the product of private enterprise: sheer capitalism. Public sector was an unknown concept in 1900.


I'm not denying that capitalism is why they were made, those days companies felt the need to impress by making everything grand (Paddington station is a good example) These days it's cost, cost, cost and more cost that makes people buy stuff.

And i'm quite sure that the way the tiles were applied on individually where stations like Bond Street (Jubilee line) were pre fabricated.

And by the way micro, the tiles at Kentish Town aren't actually the original design, just a pastiche.


----------



## iampuking

These were the best videos I could find that allowed embedding, all by the same person, I nicked this idea from minato ku (I think that's his name...)

Victoria line











Piccadilly line






Central line






Northern line


----------



## pookgai

Does anyone have any information (surveys, customer opinions, industry surveys) on London Underground or London's Transport network (especially Rail) against other cities? Or know where I can find it? Much appreciated.


----------



## iampuking

I found this?


----------



## iampuking

I just googled "London Underground survey" and that was the first thing I found...


----------



## iampuking

Funny page, especially the bit where Tony Blair used the Jubilee line extention...

http://solo2.abac.com/themole//tubenews.html


----------



## trainrover

pookgai said:


> Does anyone have any information (surveys, customer opinions, industry surveys) on London Underground or London's Transport network (especially Rail) against other cities? Or know where I can find it? Much appreciated.


Yeah, I used it daily decades ago, so much I'm certain passengers over there behave better than their Montreal counterparts (best-behaving in its country, mind you). Hardnuts are far too easy to spot over there, while literally zillions mask themselves in gallic yankeeland.


----------



## iampuking

Eh?


----------



## trainrover

Hardnuts => yobbos, thugs, hooligans, troublemakers, etc.

(How come I'm certain that that Metro article lodged a few messages above must've been written by some North American?)


----------



## iampuking

Eh? Again? None of those words are used in that article.

And flickr London Tube gallery is here, some arty shots in it: http://www.flickr.com/groups/london_tube/


----------



## go_leafs_go02

I was in London mid August for a few days.

rode the Tube all over.. Metropolitan, Piccadilly, District, Jubilee Lines in a day.

What an awesome network. I'm going into transportation planning for school, and absolutely loved almost every aspect. So much charm. the new Jubilee extension through Westminster and Waterloo was incredible (considering just how deep you are underground)

Riding it was one of my major highlights of visiting London.


----------



## Tubeman

go_leafs_go02 said:


> I was in London mid August for a few days.
> 
> rode the Tube all over.. Metropolitan, Piccadilly, District, Jubilee Lines in a day.
> 
> What an awesome network. I'm going into transportation planning for school, and absolutely loved almost every aspect. So much charm. the new Jubilee extension through Westminster and Waterloo was incredible (considering just how deep you are underground)
> 
> Riding it was one of my major highlights of visiting London.


Glad you enjoyed it 

Even though Londoners love nothing more than to slag it off, I think its awesome too... especially the manager of Elephant & Castle Depot, he's great!


----------



## Rebasepoiss

go_leafs_go02 said:


> I was in London mid August for a few days.
> 
> rode the Tube all over.. Metropolitan, Piccadilly, District, Jubilee Lines in a day.
> 
> What an awesome network. I'm going into transportation planning for school, and absolutely loved almost every aspect. So much charm. the new Jubilee extension through Westminster and Waterloo was incredible (considering just how deep you are underground)
> 
> Riding it was one of my major highlights of visiting London.


It was one of my highlights as well, when I visited London  But I didn't have that much time so I just rode through the circle line.


----------



## iampuking

Circle line... I'm surprised it hasn't scarred you for life


----------



## winstainforth

You may have seen these images before, but for those who haven't take a look, although I have added some brand new images. 

I've spend 150+ hours underground on this project!!

http://www.tubephotos.com/?goto=galleries










The disused public tunnels at Euston are cool.

http://www.tubephotos.com/?goto=eustonstationabandonedtunnels&thumbs=ok






Enjoy!

Rob


----------



## iampuking

Put the 11 letter/number code at the end of the URL (address) in between [ Youtube ][ / youtube ] Without the gaps of course.


----------



## winstainforth

iampuking said:


> Put the 11 letter code at the end of the URL (address) in between [ Youtube ][ / youtube ] Without the gaps of course.


Thanks.


----------



## iampuking

I love the new additions.


----------



## winstainforth

iampuking said:


> I love the new additions.


Thanks, the DLR is the next project. Traveled to Bank to get some tunnel shot from the front of the train but DLR was closed today. Never mind.


----------



## iampuking

Typical...


----------



## winstainforth

iampuking said:


> Typical...


But went back today and got the tunnel shots.

http://www.tubephotos.com/?goto=docklandslightrailwaydlrnew&img=1


----------



## micro

winstainforth said:


> You may have seen these images before, but for those who haven't take a look, although I have added some brand new images.
> 
> I've spend 150+ hours underground on this project!!
> 
> http://www.tubephotos.com/?goto=galleries


Great work!


----------



## iampuking

Some bloke went to every single tube station:


----------



## micro

impressive :nuts:


----------



## Songoten2554

wow man thats impressive they look HD Quality really good i think you have a great Camera my Digital Camera is not good as yours

post more pics take more pics with that camera it must have costed you alot to have those HD Quality pics

Paddington Station looks really beauitiful and the DLR Bank Tunnel looks very modern very cool keep it up


----------



## iampuking

The addition of the 'London Overground' has turned a map that was famous for it's clarity into a tangarine mess.

See here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/1106.aspx


----------



## Xplosive

Fantastic post! Enjoyed it.


----------



## Minato ku

To be honnest I don't like the interior of the 2009 stocks, it look outdated.


----------



## Tubeman

Great work Mr Puking


----------



## iampuking

Thanks for the comments everyone, I appreciate it. I think I should change the Northern line's interior pic to show the new moquette though...



Minato ku said:


> To be honnest I don't like the interior of the 2009 stocks, it look outdated.


What looks so outdated about it?


----------



## Minato ku

The design.
The interior of 96 stock and even of the refurbished 73 stock look more modern.


----------



## iampuking

What about that design, you can be more specific then that surely.


----------



## Minato ku

In this point that I can't really answer.
Younger don't need better, the interior of the 92 stocks is the worst of tube train.


----------



## N1

What a brilliant post, I am Puking.

I heard that the colour coding of the interior was being phased out, so that all sub surface trains would look the same. And I thought that might even include the new overground trains that seem very similar (identical?) to the new stock for the sub surface lines??


----------



## Blackpool88

quality post Iampuking, the Maida Vale station is my favourite from outside even though I have never even seen it in reality


----------



## iampuking

Minato ku said:


> In this point that I can't really answer.
> Younger don't need better, the interior of the 92 stocks is the worst of tube train.


I think the 92TS is the best of the lot! Big windows make it feel more spacious, two of the seats are set back giving it more leg room and more standing space, and the handrails by the doors 'stick out' from the wall allowing one to wrap their arm around it while reading the newspaper! But the seats are too uncomfortable, and because of that I prefer the 72/67TS... I don't really like the 09TS interior because the windows are too small, but the Victoria line is entirely in tunnel so there isn't much to see.



N1 said:


> What a brilliant post, I am Puking.
> 
> I heard that the colour coding of the interior was being phased out, so that all sub surface trains would look the same. And I thought that might even include the new overground trains that seem very similar (identical?) to the new stock for the sub surface lines??


Thank you, I think the SSLs will get one interior for the District/Circle/H&C since they will be the same legnth (7 cars) and the same seating arrangements, but the 8 car Met trains will probably end up as a dedicated sub-fleet with a different interior design. It doesn't really make much difference though, as the Circle, H&C and District from Edgware Road to Wimbledon already are the same inside. Tubeman will probably know more.



Blackpool88 said:


> quality post Iampuking, the Maida Vale station is my favourite from outside even though I have never even seen it in reality


Maida Vale is one of my favs too, it also has a unique mosaiced roundel on the stairwell, the station is currently being refurbished.


----------



## Blackpool88

haha wow that mosaic's amazing, I love all the quirks of the tube that you've highlighted I had literally never noticed that the colour scheme inside matched the line colour in all my years of using the tube! I cant believe I missed it!


----------



## Mongo8780

iampuking said:


> I should really ask for permission first,


Yes, you should.


----------



## iampuking

Mongo8780 said:


> Yes, you should.


Well I haven't.

Do you have anything worthwhile to say?


----------



## trainrover

iampuking said:


> Bakerloo line 1972 Stock = 7 short cars
> 
> District line D Stock = 6 long cars
> 
> Piccadilly line 1973 Stock = 6 long cars


SVP, _how_ long's a long car, plus what's the length of a short one? (I don't recall the length of a 1973 Pic-line car being longer....) (Too bad yer shots aren't labelled!)


----------



## iampuking

Bakerloo/Victoria 1972/1967 Stock are 16m long for driving cars, and 15m for trailers.

Piccadilly 1973 Stock are 17.7m long, so are 1995/1996 Northern/Jubilee line trains

So not much difference really. Tubeman told me the Central line's 1992 Stock was built with the shorter type of cars because of tight curves on that line.

And i'm going to label the photos soon.


----------



## Blackpool88

Mongo8780 said:


> Yes, you should.


yeah jog on mate he's given us a really well structured accessible run down on the tube without needing to trawl 50 pages dont nit pick!


----------



## iampuking

Thanks Blackpool88, and thanks everyone else for the kind words. I've labelled the pictures now.


----------



## GNU

Minato ku said:


> To be honnest I don't like the interior of the 2009 stocks, it look outdated.


Yeah Id agree here.
It looks somewhat dated. Nevertheless its good to see new trains on the line.


----------



## iampuking

GNU said:


> Yeah Id agree here.
> It looks somewhat dated. Nevertheless its good to see new trains on the line.


Is it the moquette? (the seat pattern) it's more 'traditional' than the 95/73TS.


----------



## brisbanite

Love the pic's iampuking! How narrow is the Clapham Common platform, must be hazardous if it is busy.


----------



## iampuking

Flickr set of the new Heathrow T5 Tube + Heathrow Express station.


----------



## sarflonlad

iampuking said:


> Flickr set of the new Heathrow T5 Tube + Heathrow Express station.


Swish!


----------



## sotonsi

iampuking said:


> Flickr set of the new Heathrow T5 Tube + Heathrow Express station.


shame they can't get third rail into that station, making airtrack more difficult and annoying - looks good though!


----------



## Tubeman

sotonsi said:


> shame they can't get third rail into that station, making airtrack more difficult and annoying - looks good though!


Platforms 3 & 4 have been built and left vacant ready for Airtrack and the route safeguarded... or are you referring to electrification?

It's a shame that Express / Connect is 25Kv OLE and Airtrack would be 3rd Rail DC, as a Paddington - Waterloo service via Heathrow would be cool, but there's no reason why dual-voltage trains like those used for First Capital Connect / Thameslink and First services to Moorgate can't be used.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

iampuking said:


> Tube drivers eye view, it's the Circle line between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street being typically slow. Waits in stations and gaps between tunnels (where it is pitch black) have been edited out.


Vey interesting movie. The trains sound just as they do in Moscow, so similar.
Could you tell me what was the first station, with a mansion on a platform, it was so picturesque. I really don't understand why it is often said London tube is not beautiful at all.


----------



## iampuking

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Vey interesting movie. The trains sound just as they do in Moscow, so similar.
> Could you tell me what was the first station, with a mansion on a platform, it was so picturesque. I really don't understand why it is often said London tube is not beautiful at all.


Do you mean the second station in the video, which is Farringdon? Or do you mean Barbican (the third station)? The first station is King's Cross which is wholly underground, so I don't think you mean that one.

Farringdon










Barbican


----------



## sotonsi

Tubeman said:


> Platforms 3 & 4 have been built and left vacant ready for Airtrack and the route safeguarded... or are you referring to electrification?


the latter - from what I gather, all four platforms will be airtrack/HEx and third rail isn't allowed there for technical reasons of some sort.


> It's a shame that Express / Connect is 25Kv OLE and Airtrack would be 3rd Rail DC, as a Paddington - Waterloo service via Heathrow would be cool, but there's no reason why dual-voltage trains like those used for First Capital Connect / Thameslink and First services to Moorgate can't be used.


Airtrack would be 25kV OLE to Staines/Staines High Street (dual electrified where Hex and third rail for the new north-west curve. Changeover will be at Staines/Staines High Street. It's far more complex electrically to have the large overlap section, rather than a changeover at Heathrow. It also means that while HEx can run to Staines with no changes to the trains, Airtrack will need the dual voltage trains, and that reduces stock flexibility (as if there was third rail to Heathrow, any SW trains electric stock could go there).


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Sorry, I meant the first station on the ground. Well, when watching you may see it since 2:33. I liked the entrance on the platform very much.

By the way, do you know how every single station of London Tube looks like?


----------



## iampuking

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Sorry, I meant the first station on the ground. Well, when watching you may see it since 2:33. I liked the entrance on the platform very much.
> 
> By the way, do you know how every single station of London Tube looks like?


I think you mean Farringdon station, or are you talking about the overbridge?

And every tube station looks different... But of course there are architectural trends, see them in my post 325 on this page.


----------



## mtj73

iampuking said:


> I think the 92TS is the best of the lot! Big windows make it feel more spacious, two of the seats are set back giving it more leg room and more standing space, and the handrails by the doors 'stick out' from the wall allowing one to wrap their arm around it while reading the newspaper! But the seats are too uncomfortable, and because of that I prefer the 72/67TS... I don't really like the 09TS interior because the windows are too small, but the Victoria line is entirely in tunnel so there isn't much to see.


I agree about the big windows, somehow make the 92TS look more modern than the rest, such a shame they have not brought them over for the 09TS. I don't know why trains have such small windows these days.


----------



## trainrover

mtj73 said:


> why trains have such small windows these days.


Me? I reckon they`re under-sized to deprive their passengers any sense of _panache_ brought on by comfortably riding trains in our stylin`ways, i.e., one`d be supposedly better off going by automobile instead . . . I`ve always reckoned tiny windows to be a yankee thing, which is funny when one recalls just how (ahem) big they like things to be down there . . .


----------



## sweek

mtj73 said:


> I agree about the big windows, somehow make the 92TS look more modern than the rest, such a shame they have not brought them over for the 09TS. I don't know why trains have such small windows these days.


Well, the whole Victoria line is underground. It's not like you'd be able to see much with bigger windows.


----------



## Sopelsiasty

iampuking said:


> Tube drivers eye view, it's the Circle line between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street being typically slow. Waits in stations and gaps between tunnels (where it is pitch black) have been edited out.


The Video is great and very interesting, but could someone explain to me why this train is so slow? Why does it wait sometimes for another train to pass it by, when it uses completely separate track? The speed is really annoying - average of 15 mph? I always considered London Tube as an express service, going at incredibly high speed (of course as for metro service). Why the Circle Line is so different?


----------



## U Thant

The fast bits between the stations have been edited out. The driver also keeps getting red signals, which suggests the train is catching up with the one in front. I don't think it's anything to do with trains coming the other way.


----------



## iampuking

Sopelsiasty said:


> The Video is great and very interesting, but could someone explain to me why this train is so slow? Why does it wait sometimes for another train to pass it by, when it uses completely separate track? The speed is really annoying - average of 15 mph? I always considered London Tube as an express service, going at incredibly high speed (of course as for metro service). Why the Circle Line is so different?


There is a train in front, when the driver waits at the red signal before entering Moorgate (second station from the end) you can see the red lights of the back of the train waiting in the station.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

iampuking said:


> I think you mean Farringdon station, or are you talking about the overbridge?
> 
> And every tube station looks different... But of course there are architectural trends, see them in my post 325 on this page.


Every station looks different, really? I thought many curved station in the city center look similar, probably curves only are different.


----------



## iampuking

Most of the Tube line stations are not majorly different, except for the tiie patterns, but sub-surface stations (which is whats in the video I posted) are more varied.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

Thanks, I've just viewed post 325. In fact, your tube is even more attractive than Moscow metro. You've got a real variety while here they copy designs slightly changing it.


----------



## iampuking

_Night City Dream_ said:


> Thanks, I've just viewed post 325. In fact, your tube is even more attractive than Moscow metro. You've got a real variety while here they copy designs slightly changing it.


Well... LU says thanks! I think there is more variety on LU but Moscow has more attractive stations IMO.


----------



## Sopelsiasty

iampuking said:


> There is a train in front, when the driver waits at the red signal before entering Moorgate (second station from the end) you can see the red lights of the back of the train waiting in the station.


Now it's clear to me. Thanks!


----------



## DarJoLe

mtj73 said:


> I don't know why trains have such small windows these days.


More advertising space.


----------



## Acemcbuller

mtj73 said:


> I don't know why trains have such small windows these days.


At the Cooling the Tube talk recently, Kevin Payne told how there has been a sucessful trial of removing the large windows from Central line trains and replacing them with a smaller window and a vent.


----------



## iampuking

It'll definately increase noise levels though.


----------



## Acemcbuller

opps


----------



## iampuking

And what about in the winter? Will we be able to close these gaps?


----------



## iampuking

Video showing the different rolling stock on the Underground, with the exception of a few (95TS, 72TS, 67TS and A Stock) the silver trains towards the end of the video are now all refurbished and now all look like the train at 4:30.


----------



## iampuking

Some bloke goes on a tour of Northumberland Park Depot, showing the new 2009 Stock for the Victoria line.


----------



## Zim Flyer

iampuking said:


> Some bloke goes on a tour of Northumberland Park Depot, showing the new 2009 Stock for the Victoria line.


They look very swish, I like them.


----------



## Ni3lS

I'm going to London in April. can't wait to see the underground and canary wharf station


----------



## iampuking

Canary Wharf isn't the _only_ interesting station...


----------



## Martin S

Acemcbuller said:


> At the Cooling the Tube talk recently, Kevin Payne told how there has been a sucessful trial of removing the large windows from Central line trains and replacing them with a smaller window and a vent.


That doesn't sound like a particularly good solution to me. A vent would just allow cooler air from the tunnels and stations to be circulated into the train but, as there is a general problem with heat in the stations and tunnels generally, it wouldn't help too much.

What is needed is some system to remove the heat from the tunnels and disperse it to the open air. That is much easier in the case of the sub-surface lines as these have much more air space generally and several sections that are not roofed in.


----------



## Acemcbuller

Martin S said:


> That doesn't sound like a particularly good solution to me. A vent would just allow cooler air from the tunnels and stations to be circulated into the train but, as there is a general problem with heat in the stations and tunnels generally, it wouldn't help too much.
> 
> What is needed is some system to remove the heat from the tunnels and disperse it to the open air. That is much easier in the case of the sub-surface lines as these have much more air space generally and several sections that are not roofed in.


True but it helps the air circulate more into carriages while the train is moving.
That does cool people down because it carries heat away from them, just like if you stand in front of a fan. The fan doesn't cool the air it just creates windchill. But yes its not a solution to the actually problem of heat in the system.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

iampuking said:


> Anyone that has been on LU in the summer will appreciate this.
> 
> 
> 
> The Piccadilly line shares tracks with the District line between Acton Town and just north of Ealing Common station, only on the Uxbridge branch. I've witnessed the Piccadilly line stopping in the District line platforms at Acton Town, but I don't think they're timetabled to do so. The Piccadilly line stops at Turnham Green early mornings and late evenings, but never stops at Chiswick Park, there aren't even platforms for it!


They stop pn the same platforms as the District line.


----------



## iampuking

DanielFigFoz said:


> They stop pn the same platforms as the District line.


At which station?


----------



## sarflonlad

Acemcbuller said:


> True but it helps the air circulate more into carriages while the train is moving.
> That does cool people down because it carries heat away from them, just like if you stand in front of a fan. The fan doesn't cool the air it just creates windchill. But yes its not a solution to the actually problem of heat in the system.


Better ventilation - or fans - make substantial differences to the comfort of a ride. Beijing's line 1 has fans on the carriage ceilings that really help to cool you down.

Unfortunately I think our trains are too small to do this... that said, there are suppose to be fans on the Victoria and Pic lines - but I never feel anything from them on these trains


----------



## Martin S

Acemcbuller said:


> True but it helps the air circulate more into carriages while the train is moving.
> That does cool people down because it carries heat away from them, just like if you stand in front of a fan. The fan doesn't cool the air it just creates windchill. But yes its not a solution to the actually problem of heat in the system.


I started using the tube again last summer after having not used it much at all for several years. It definitely seems much warmer than it was back in the late 90s. In the summer months, even when a train was not particularly crowded it could be uncomfortably hot on the Victoria Line.

Any increase in train length, frequency or just general passenger load is bound to increase the heat in the tunnels. In the medium to long term, an air conditioning solution will probably be the only answer coupled with extraction of hot tunnel air.


----------



## Dan

I used the tube a whole lot during my recent trip to London. My goodness, how it drove me insane! Trains keeping their doors open for forever when coming to a station, trains stopping all the time in tunnels, ghetto trains many of which can barely hold tall people, slow-moving trains, sometimes huge distances up and down stairs and walkways to connect between lines at what is called the same station, unreliable time estimates if there are even any, confusing use of platforms, rarely ever good service on all lines at once, short operation hours, frequent closures, handicap-unfriendly, stations that seem a bit useless given that they are only used during certain parts of the day or week... gahhh!!

Of course I understand that many of these problems is due to the fact that the London system is so old, and I doubt that the systems in places like New York and Chicago are much better. A lot could be fixed and improved, though. But even as just as a tourist for three days, these things were driving me insane and were virtually ruining the trip for me (given how much I had to use the tube). I've been too spoiled by the Stockholm system.


----------



## sarflonlad

Dan1113 said:


> I used the tube a whole lot during my recent trip to London. My goodness, how it drove me insane! Trains keeping their doors open for forever when coming to a station, trains stopping all the time in tunnels, ghetto trains many of which can barely hold tall people, slow-moving trains, sometimes huge distances up and down stairs and walkways to connect between lines at what is called the same station, unreliable time estimates if there are even any, confusing use of platforms, rarely ever good service on all lines at once, short operation hours, frequent closures, handicap-unfriendly, stations that seem a bit useless given that they are only used during certain parts of the day or week... gahhh!!
> 
> Of course I understand that many of these problems is due to the fact that the London system is so old, and I doubt that the systems in places like New York and Chicago are much better. A lot could be fixed and improved, though. But even as just as a tourist for three days, these things were driving me insane and were virtually ruining the trip for me (given how much I had to use the tube). I've been too spoiled by the Stockholm system.


When it works, it works well. When it doesn't work, it goes tits up.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Many tourists find the labyrinth and history of the tube a tourist attraction in its own right.


----------



## iampuking

Dan1113 said:


> Trains keeping their doors open for forever when coming to a station, trains stopping all the time in tunnels


I take it you used the Circle/District lines a lot? 



Dan1113 said:


> sometimes huge distances up and down stairs and walkways to connect between lines at what is called the same station,


Where? It's never seemed particularly bad to me.



Dan1113 said:


> confusing use of platforms


How can the use of platforms be confusing? Do you think it would be less confusing if there were no platforms or something? :nuts:



Dan1113 said:


> short operation hours


Doesn't seem different to any other metro IMO.



Dan1113 said:


> frequent closures


That's to sort out all of the problems that you're whining about 



Dan1113 said:


> handicap-unfriendly


Same in practically all other big city metros.



Dan1113 said:


> stations that seem a bit useless given that they are only used during certain parts of the day or week... gahhh!!


Which in Central London?


----------



## Dan

Comments in red. 



iampuking said:


> I take it you used the Circle/District lines a lot?
> 
> Yes... my hotel was right near High Street Kensington, which is serviced by these two lines, so I used them the most. I tried virtually all the other lines at least a couple times though, particularly the Piccadilly line. I think I only didn't go on a couple. The District line in particular though seems to be pretty large, so I don't think it's ok for it to be like this on any line.
> 
> 
> Where? It's never seemed particularly bad to me.
> 
> Charion's Cross comes to mind. Seemed like it was shorter to walk to the next station where the other line was then transferring there.
> 
> How can the use of platforms be confusing? Do you think it would be less confusing if there were no platforms or something? :nuts:
> 
> Well, maybe it was just because of the problems on the district line a few days ago (I was there over the weekend), but there were pretty much no trains going to High Street Kensington from Earl's Court whereas there were plenty of other District lines going elsewhere... and to make things all the more confusing, the trains weren't really running from the platforms they were supposed to, so the one train that did go to HSK I missed. At least at Earl's Court, I found the signage about which trains leave from where to be pretty confusing.
> 
> Doesn't seem different to any other metro IMO.
> 
> Well my main experience at least is from the Stockholm metro. Open till 1 am, open till 3.30 am on weekends. Starting this summer it'll be going 24/7 on weekends -- which is the total opposite than the London one, which seems to go worse on weekends. I find this odd given the number of people who party on weekends and thus need a way to get home. I find it especially odd that I am able to get back home using the a commuter train line here later than one is able to take the tube home (my last train on weekdays is at 12.50, 1.20 on weekends with an extra departure to be added this summer). Given that Stockholm is very small compared to the London metro (and thus the amount of people that need to get around late at night), it just seemed really shocking to me. It limited how late I (and my friend from London) were able to stay out.
> 
> That's to sort out all of the problems that you're whining about
> 
> Touché. Doesn't seem to be improving too much though. New trains wouldn't hurt either...even the new trains that have been purchased seem a little ghetto, to be honest, but this is more of a personal opinion.
> 
> Same in practically all other big city metros.
> 
> Sure. IMO I find it a huge shame though, and I wish every metro fixed this. Here in Stockholm the whole system should be fully accessible by 2010 -- thankfully already now virtually all stations have both elevators and escalators, and the steps to the trains are pretty small. The same goes for the commuter trains.
> 
> Which in Central London?
> 
> None, but it seemed strange nonetheless. It would be a bit useless to me to have a metro station near where I live but one that I can only use on weekdays, or only during rush hours, etc.


Please don't get me wrong - I love London and have nothing against the city. It was just the underground that drove me a bit insane.  I also admire that London was pretty much the first to get a metro system, so obviously given its age I fully understand many of the problems and the need to close to renovate/fix things a lot. A lot of it seems to be fixable/avoidable, though.


----------



## sweek

Indeed a lot of these problems rae worked on. New trains, signal upgrades etc. I can only think of one station with limited opening hours on the tube now, which is Cannon Street.

Also signage is the one thing I think the LU does better than any other system. Earl's Court is a bit of an exception with its heritage terminal boxes.

London also has what is possibly the biggest and most frequent night bus network in the world, which is a very good option after midnight. Night buses in Stockholm weren't too great in my experience.


----------



## NothingBetterToDo

Yes, fixable - but to make all stations accessible for disabled people, for example. would cost billions for relatively little gain (as harsh as that sounds). Then add to that all the other 'fixable' problems and it would be a never ending spiral of costs. 

I think the balance the LU currently has is more than adequate, and things are slowly improving. 



Also, i hear Stokholms metro network is indeed outstanding - but like a lot of newer Metro's it's not very extensive - i'm sure if it had as many lines as the tube it would start to experience some similar problems (long walks at interchanges, confusing layouts, close stops and so on). 

I have experience of Copenhagens new system and its wonderful, clean, quick, efficient (i imagine its similar to Stockholms) - but it really didn't go to enough places i needed it to.


----------



## sweek

The t-Bana in Stockholim is indeed quite wonderful, and I've never really had any problems with it when I lived there. The Pendeltag (commuter trains) on the other hand are not as frequent and very prone to delays.

I also remember the walk at Centralen to be quite lon between red/green and blue.


----------



## Justme

Dan1113 said:


> Comments in red.
> 
> Please don't get me wrong - I love London and have nothing against the city. It was just the underground that drove me a bit insane.  I also admire that London was pretty much the first to get a metro system, so obviously given its age I fully understand many of the problems and the need to close to renovate/fix things a lot. A lot of it seems to be fixable/avoidable, though.


I understand your points and some are gripes I also have. But I believe the weekend service is as it is because they do a lot of maintenence on those two days. 

As for the lack of a night service, I believe it is also due to maintenence. However, since London has possibly the world's largest night bus service (If there is a larger one I'd like to know) then it's not so much of a problem. Late at night there is little traffic problems on the streets and night buses can travel faster and closer to people's destinations. They often work better than metro's.


----------



## flierfy

NothingBetterToDo said:


> Also, i hear Stokholms metro network is indeed outstanding - but like a lot of newer Metro's it's not very extensive - i'm sure if it had as many lines as the tube it would start to experience some similar problems (long walks at interchanges, confusing layouts, close stops and so on).


Stockholm tunnelbanan is actually more extensive than London Underground if you take the size of the cities into the equation. London is roughly 10 times as big as Stockholm. Stockholm's network, however, has 100 station and 108 km system length while LU has just 269 station and 404 km.

The problem of inefficient interchanges has something to do with decentralised planning of the lines but not with age or extensiveness of the network. Most lines of LU were built by competing railway companies. They had little interest in creating an integrated network and built their station were it was most convenient for them. Londoners today pay the price for such a short-sightedness by walking more than necessary.


----------



## sarflonlad

flierfy said:


> Stockholm tunnelbanan is actually more extensive than London Underground if you take the size of the cities into the equation. London is roughly 10 times as big as Stockholm. Stockholm's network, however, has 100 station and 108 km system length while LU has just 269 station and 404 km.


Hmmmmm... but London Underground goes far beyond London so the distances between stations increases as you go through less populated areas. Different cities have different needs. Some London Underground lines function similarly to the Paris RER whilst other lines function as a typical metro line.



> The problem of inefficient interchanges has something to do with decentralised planning of the lines but not with age or extensiveness of the network. Most lines of LU were built by competing railway companies. They had little interest in creating an integrated network and built their station were it was most convenient for them. Londoners today pay the price for such a short-sightedness by walking more than necessary.


The only real place that springs to mind where this is a big problem is the bank Bank/Monument interchange between 5 lines... but then the station is so big and complex it has 2 names. More lines interchanging = more complex particularly when you have a mix of deep level tubes, sub surface lines and light rail.

What you say about competing rail companies is however very true. Again this only happens in a few places e.g. Tott Court Road - even then it's not so bad (but expect it to get worse when they build Crossrail!)


----------



## iampuking

Dan1113 said:


> Charion's Cross comes to mind. Seemed like it was shorter to walk to the next station where the other line was then transferring there.


Charing Cross and the interchange between the Central and W&C lines and the Circle and District lines are the only Central London interchanges which I think are long. The rest are fine.



Dan1113 said:


> Well, maybe it was just because of the problems on the district line a few days ago (I was there over the weekend), but there were pretty much no trains going to High Street Kensington from Earl's Court whereas there were plenty of other District lines going elsewhere... and to make things all the more confusing, the trains weren't really running from the platforms they were supposed to, so the one train that did go to HSK I missed. At least at Earl's Court, I found the signage about which trains leave from where to be pretty confusing.


Earl's Court is one of the few confusing stations on LU, it is because of the junction layout, trains are only routed into a platform at last minute, therefore it is impossible for passengers to know which train will go where. You have to look at the old-fashioned train indicators. Tubeman will probably know more about this...



Dan1113 said:


> Well my main experience at least is from the Stockholm metro. Open till 1 am, open till 3.30 am on weekends. Starting this summer it'll be going 24/7 on weekends -- which is the total opposite than the London one, which seems to go worse on weekends. I find this odd given the number of people who party on weekends and thus need a way to get home. I find it especially odd that I am able to get back home using the a commuter train line here later than one is able to take the tube home (my last train on weekdays is at 12.50, 1.20 on weekends with an extra departure to be added this summer). Given that Stockholm is very small compared to the London metro (and thus the amount of people that need to get around late at night), it just seemed really shocking to me. It limited how late I (and my friend from London) were able to stay out.


Stockholm is unusual then, some American and German cities are similar, but I can't think of any others. Plus, as has already been said, London's Night Bus system is more than sufficient.



Dan1113 said:


> Touché. Doesn't seem to be improving too much though. New trains wouldn't hurt either...even the new trains that have been purchased seem a little ghetto, to be honest, but this is more of a personal opinion.


What's wrong with the current trains? Some date back from the sixties, sure, but they're well maintained and have been refurbished. Often the old trains work better than the new ones! And new trains have been purchased, what is so "ghetto" about them?



Dan1113 said:


> Sure. IMO I find it a huge shame though, and I wish every metro fixed this. Here in Stockholm the whole system should be fully accessible by 2010 -- thankfully already now virtually all stations have both elevators and escalators, and the steps to the trains are pretty small. The same goes for the commuter trains.


Many stations are being upgraded to have step-free access. See here. I'm guessing that when Crossrail comes, which will have wheel-chair access, the Crossrail stations that have interchanges with LU will include step-free access from the LU stations too.



Dan1113 said:


> None, but it seemed strange nonetheless. It would be a bit useless to me to have a metro station near where I live but one that I can only use on weekdays, or only during rush hours, etc.


It's a Victorian legacy, many old lines took over branches of existing overground railways, often built for much lower patronage. More recent lines have more passengers per station, for example the station with the lowest usage on the Victoria line is Blackhorse Road with over 5.312 million passengers per year..


----------



## DarJoLe

Stockholm's system is not all that. Yeah, nice new trains (similar to what we're getting on the subsurface lines in 2009) but the stations are still quite 1970s and not very bright.


----------



## U Thant

Dan1113 said:


> Charion's Cross comes to mind. Seemed like it was shorter to walk to the next station where the other line was then transferring there.


Charing Cross was originally two separate stations (Trafalgar Square and Strand). They build a Jubilee Line station between them and provided connections at either end to each station, turning it into one complex. More recently, the Jubilee Line was extended on a new route and the platforms at Charing Cross closed, leaving the original two stations connected by a very long tunnel.

The lines run parallel for two more stops, so you can do the same interchange at Embankment or Waterloo. Can't remember which is easiest.


----------



## U Thant

Dan1113 said:


> None, but it seemed strange nonetheless. It would be a bit useless to me to have a metro station near where I live but one that I can only use on weekdays, or only during rush hours, etc.


There aren't any that I can think of that have significantly shorter hours. There are several direct services that are limited hours, but only in places where there's an equivalent available

eg The District and Piccadilly run parallel for a stretch, with the Piccadilly as an express service. A few Piccadilly trains call at Turnham Green, but otherwise you have to get the District a couple of stops and change. 

Similarly west of Rayner's Lane, the Piccadilly and Metropolitan Lines join up and run on the same tracks to Uxbridge. A lot of the time all Piccadilly Line trains terminate at Rayner's Lane, so you have to get off and wait for a Met.

There are also a couple that have special arrangements to deal with overcrowding.


----------



## Andrew

U Thant said:


> Charing Cross was originally two separate stations (Trafalgar Square and Strand). They build a Jubilee Line station between them and provided connections at either end to each station, turning it into one complex. More recently, the Jubilee Line was extended on a new route and the platforms at Charing Cross closed, leaving the original two stations connected by a very long tunnel.
> 
> The lines run parallel for two more stops, so you can do the same interchange at Embankment or Waterloo. Can't remember which is easiest.


I wonder if there's any prospect of re-using the Charing Cross Jubilee line platforms for another scheme in the future.


----------



## sweek

Andrew said:


> I wonder if there's any prospect of re-using the Charing Cross Jubilee line platforms for another scheme in the future.


Rumour has it the DLR might be extended there.


----------



## sarflonlad

Andrew said:


> I wonder if there's any prospect of re-using the Charing Cross Jubilee line platforms for another scheme in the future.


I think the still use it as a sidings.

Often this is the station they use for TV ads, films etc. It looks up to date and modern and obviously is still very functional.


----------



## iampuking

Heathrow T5 tube station video, shows the old stations first, a bit of the station and a bit of the terminal, with an some annoying voice overs thrown in for good measure.


----------



## Ni3lS

A friend of mine was taking pics and a guy told us it's illegal.. But I have a pic of the outside:


----------



## iampuking

Well the guy was wrong... I think!


----------



## pupjake

I know that taking pics on the tube with a flash isn't allowed. This is to prevent the possibility of accidentally dazzling drivers just coming out of a pitch-black tunnel. Police and security type people seem to be questioning people taking photos like anything all over London at the minute. Does all seem a bit heavy handed in the way that they're doing it though.


----------



## channel

:bash:i use the london tube every day and it is one of the worst i have ever experienced, the most expensive and very unreliable due to constant signal failures. Thet are dirty, uncomfortable in summer due to no air condition and just bad ride during rush hour. The good thing is the oyster card system which let u top up and get discount when used, however the tourist get cheated when the buy the normal travel card. Best tubes i been to is paris metro, the subway is Munich, Japan and Valencia.


----------



## trainrover

pupjake said:


> Does all seem a bit heavy handed in the way that they're doing it though.


I found LT's admonishments mighty hard back in the 70s and 80s; besides, my outdoor results were far better than my indoor ones . . .


----------



## iampuking

I've found some drivers eye views of the Piccadilly line on YouTube here.

Including a video of the sidings at the brand new Heathrow Terminal 5 station, and the fast section between Acton Town and Hammersmith...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Nielsiej13 said:


> A friend of mine was taking pics and a guy told us it's illegal.. But I have a pic of the outside:


As long as you don't use the flash you can take pics on the LU.


----------



## PortoNuts

Sorry for my ignorance, but I would like to know a few things about the Tube:

1) Are there any expansion plans for LU?

2) Is there any tube map from around the early 1900s (Edwardian Era).

Thanks a bunch in advance.

P.S. For me the Tube is not only a classic but one of the best metro systems in the world. If you think that many stations are over 100 years old, then it's very well preserved and as clean as possible. You can get almost anywhere in London with the underground.


----------



## city_thing

^^ You can find old Tube Maps (going back over 100 years, it's changed many, many times) here...

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clivebillson/tube/tube.html

the tube is always being expanded. It never stops growing.


----------



## iampuking

Not exactly about the Underground but about the DLR... I found a picture of the delta junction at Poplar which I thought was cool, see here


----------



## iampuking

PortoNuts said:


> Sorry for my ignorance, but I would like to know a few things about the Tube:
> 
> 1) Are there any expansion plans for LU?
> 
> 2) Is there any tube map from around the early 1900s (Edwardian Era).
> 
> Thanks a bunch in advance.
> 
> P.S. For me the Tube is not only a classic but one of the best metro systems in the world. If you think that many stations are over 100 years old, then it's very well preserved and as clean as possible. You can get almost anywhere in London with the underground.


You should've asked in the 'Ask The Tubeman' thread! but anyway:

1) There are many expansion plans but none are sure to be constructed at this point and are not in the near future. Crossrail is a new underground rail line in London starting construction right now for completion in 2017, it isn't the underground per se, but is rather similar, see more details here.

2) You can read about that here. That website essentially outlines the entire development of the London Underground map.


----------



## hkskyline

*Getting Philosophical on the Tube*

*Train of thought: London Underground gets philosophical *
25 June 2009
Agence France Presse

Drivers on London Underground trains have started reading out quotes from thinkers like Jean-Paul Sartre and Mahatma Gandhi in a bid to cheer up passengers, officials said Thursday.

As well as the usual announcements urging passengers to "mind the gap" and warning of delays, Piccadilly Line drivers are now also quoting philosophy over the public announcement system in a move broadly welcomed by passengers.

The quotes include "Everyone should be respected, but no-one idolised" (Albert Einstein), "An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory" (Friedrich Engels) and "Nothing is worth more than this day" (Johann von Goethe).

They come from a book of quotations compiled by artist Jeremy Deller which has been given to drivers as part of an initiative to promote art on the London Underground, also known as the Tube.

Poems are already regularly posted up inside Tube carriages in space usually used for advertisements.

Transport for London, which runs the Tube, said in a statement it hoped the move would "lift the moods of those travelling on the Piccadilly Line".

Deller, though, highlighted the importance of drivers using appropriate quotes at appropriate times.

For example, if a train was stuck in a tunnel, "there's one that probably isn't good, it's by Jean-Paul Sartre, which is 'Hell is other people'," Deller told the BBC.

"But I suspect one by Gandhi would be great, which is 'There's more to life than increasing its speed', which I think might calm people down slightly".


----------



## Republica

Pointless.

Eccentric nonsense which is only good for the drivers making their journies less boring.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Republica said:


> Pointless.
> 
> Eccentric nonsense which is only good for the drivers making their journies less boring.


Well making it less boring for them is good.


----------



## iampuking

If a train was stuck in a tunnel i'd be more concerned with why this continues to happen (maybe because upgrading contracts are handed to inadequate private companies and done shoddily...) rather than some phiolosophical quote that i've probably heard already.


----------



## Republica

DanielFigFoz said:


> Well making it less boring for them is good.


Whats better, making the driver feel slightly better, or pissing off 500 commuters who hear it every day.


----------



## PortoNuts

Will East London line be kept underground?

I've heard that it will be managed by London Overground.


----------



## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> Will East London line be kept underground?
> 
> I've heard that it will be managed by London Overground.


No, it will reopen as a fully integrated part of the Network Rail network, with services run by London Overground under the TFL umbrella.


----------



## Pansori

Here is a beautiful photo I took on Saturday in Westminster tube station 










I would have laughed if wouldn't have expected to use the Jubilee line. :|

I wonder why can't they close the entire network and reopen after all the "engineering works" are finished? It now continues for years (decades?) and not much seems to have changed. Not from the passengers' perspective anyway.


----------



## Tubeman

At least the Bakerloo Line was running


----------



## Republica

I would also love to know that is going on with the engineering works.

Are they going to get the work done and the lines up to scratch so that closures are extremely rare? Is it due to the underfunding from the cons? Will one day closures be a thing of the past?


----------



## Tubeman

Republica said:


> I would also love to know that is going on with the engineering works.
> 
> Are they going to get the work done and the lines up to scratch so that closures are extremely rare? Is it due to the underfunding from the cons? Will one day closures be a thing of the past?


Answer here


----------



## Abhishek901

Wikipedia says that Underground's length is 408 km. How is this length calculated? Does it counts shared tracks as separate lines or counts them as one. What will be its length in both of these cases?


----------



## iampuking

It is route length. So shared tracks are counted as one.


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> It is route length. So shared tracks are counted as one.



Do you know how it counts the 4-track sections of the Met / Jubilee and District / Piccadilly? 2 separate parallel lines or one route?

The 4-track section of the Met beyond Wembley Park would be a bit of an anomaly then.


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> Do you know how it counts the 4-track sections of the Met / Jubilee and District / Piccadilly? 2 separate parallel lines or one route?
> 
> The 4-track section of the Met beyond Wembley Park would be a bit of an anomaly then.


I seem to remember that on the TfL site it counted the SSL and tube lines individually in terms of route legnth, and then added them together to get something like 427km. So i'm assuming that for the figure of 408km they removed the anomalous sections where tube and sub-surface lines paralell each other.


----------



## Metrobus-FIN

Pansori said:


> Here is a beautiful photo I took on Saturday in Westminster tube station
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would have laughed if wouldn't have expected to use the Jubilee line. :|
> 
> I wonder why can't they close the entire network and reopen after all the "engineering works" are finished? It now continues for years (decades?) and not much seems to have changed. Not from the passengers' perspective anyway.


I was on vacation in London on that day, I really had some problems with Circle Line. I was trying to get from Baker Street to Bayswater, I waited 30 minutes for Circle Line train (not knowing no trains were running), then I took a Hammersmith & City line train to Edgware Road, missed a Circle Line train, and then waited for another. Stations really need more passenger information boards/announcements


----------



## Anekdote

I'll go to London tomorrow for three days. I want to ask is worth to get a 3-days travel card for £18.40 or is it better to get an Oyster card and pay for every single trip. I'm not sure if I'll travel much by tube or bus, I'll be in the centre of London most of the time.


----------



## flierfy

Anekdote said:


> I'll go to London tomorrow for three days. I want to ask is worth to get a 3-days travel card for £18.40 or is it better to get an Oyster card and pay for every single trip. I'm not sure if I'll travel much by tube or bus, I'll be in the centre of London most of the time.


It depends where you're going. The Oyster Card is in most cases the better choice unless you plan to take a train of (one of the successors of) British Rail within the TfL area. In the latter case a travel card is needed.


----------



## Tubeman

Anekdote said:


> I'll go to London tomorrow for three days. I want to ask is worth to get a 3-days travel card for £18.40 or is it better to get an Oyster card and pay for every single trip. I'm not sure if I'll travel much by tube or bus, I'll be in the centre of London most of the time.


Oystercard always works out the cheapest fare, e.g. as soon as you make enough single journeys it turns into a 1-day travelcard.

You can't go wrong with Oyster, really


----------



## ajw373

Tubeman said:


> Oystercard always works out the cheapest fare, e.g. as soon as you make enough single journeys it turns into a 1-day travelcard.
> 
> You can't go wrong with Oyster, really


True even for short time visitors. One not commonly known thing is when you are finished with it you can hand it back and get your credit and card deposit back.


----------



## flierfy

Tubeman said:


> Oystercard always works out the cheapest fare, e.g. as soon as you make enough single journeys it turns into a 1-day travelcard.
> 
> *You can't go wrong with Oyster, really*


You can. South London is rarely covered by Oyster-compatible rail services. Try to pass the ticket barrier at Charing Cross and you'll be rejected. The Oyster Card is almost only useful on the Underground. A travelcard, however, gets you anywhere in Gt London.


----------



## Tubeman

ajw373 said:


> True even for short time visitors. One not commonly known thing is when you are finished with it you can hand it back and get your credit and card deposit back.


And its transferrable, you can give it to a friend if they're planning on coming in the future.


----------



## Tubeman

flierfy said:


> You can. South London is rarely covered by Oyster-compatible rail services. Try to pass the ticket barrier at Charing Cross and you'll be rejected. The Oyster Card is almost only useful on the Underground. A travelcard, however, gets you anywhere in Gt London.


Stop confusing the matter. He's coming here for 3 days... I doubt he'll be taking in the sights of Peckham Rye or Streatham Hill. A tourist doesn't need anything else than an Oyster: it'll get you to all the major sights in London.

He wants to save money, not waste it.


----------



## flierfy

Tubeman said:


> Stop confusing the matter. He's coming here for 3 days... I doubt he'll be taking in the sights of Peckham Rye or Streatham Hill. A tourist doesn't need anything else than an Oyster: it'll get you to all the major sights in London.
> 
> He wants to save money, not waste it.


It's not a matter of time you spend there but the places you're going to. Sometimes I come to London for a single day. And I still buy me a travelcard because I want to save money and because I know that Oyster is an incomplete system. Don't presume that every tourist wants to see the postcard attraction in the city centre. There is a lot to see even there where the Oyster Card doesn't get you. That's why I wrote that s/he needs to know where s/he's going.


----------



## Tubeman

flierfy said:


> I know that Oyster is an incomplete system. Don't presume that every tourist wants to see the postcard attraction in the city centre. There is a lot to see even there where the Oyster Card doesn't get you.


Such as? There's hardly anything

Hampton Court Palace, Horniman Museum... Ummm...

Anything else?


----------



## flierfy

Tubeman said:


> Such as? There's hardly anything
> 
> Hampton Court Palace, Horniman Museum... Ummm...
> 
> Anything else?


Selhurst Park, White Hart Lane, Twickenham, Battersea Park, affordable accomodation


----------



## sweek

People go to White Hart Lane via Wood Green or Tottenham Hale. I've never met a single tourist going to Battersea Park and I've never even heard of Selhurt Park even though I've lived here for a very long time. I'll give you Twickenham though, but that's not very much part of ye average London tourist trip.

Greenwich and Kew are often easier to visit by NR than by Tube/DLR for tourists.


----------



## iampuking

Who the hell would want to get the south London commuter lines to Greenwich when you could get the DLR...

Sure, it's faster but it ain't pretty.


----------



## Pansori

Does anyone have any info on Oyster pre-pay in SW Trains? For some reason despite installing ticket barriers in suburban stations they still do not accept Oyster pre-pay.


----------



## Justme

Well, maybe he will want to visit a friend who is in one of the outer zones or South London. That is one reason he may need to use trains. Then again, he did say he would stay mainly in central London, so I guess it's pretty clear then.


----------



## ajw373

Pansori said:


> Does anyone have any info on Oyster pre-pay in SW Trains? For some reason despite installing ticket barriers in suburban stations they still do not accept Oyster pre-pay.


I asked at Wimbledon the other day as I wanted to go to Waterloo and apparently it is still going to be a few months before they accept PAYG.


----------



## Tubeman

flierfy said:


> Selhurst Park, White Hart Lane, Twickenham, Battersea Park, affordable accomodation


Clutching at straws :laugh:

I'll give you Battersea Park out of charity

He's here for 3 days, not going on a tour of every football and rugby ground in London


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> Who the hell would want to get the south London commuter lines to Greenwich when you could get the DLR...
> 
> Sure, it's faster but it ain't pretty.


Exactly. The journey from Tower Gateway or Bank to Cutty Sark is a tourist attraction in its own right, especially if you can get a 'driver's seat' at the front


----------



## flierfy

Tubeman said:


> Clutching at straws :laugh:
> 
> I'll give you Battersea Park out of charity
> 
> He's here for 3 days, *not going on a tour of every football and rugby ground* in London


How do you know? There are people who come only to London for football. Just because you're not going there doesn't mean no-one else does.


----------



## Tubeman

Jesus. Just give it a rest already, the guy's already over here... 

...I'll make sure he sends you a postcard from Shite Hart Lane :crazy:


----------



## Tubeman

flierfy said:


> He bought a travelcard and you advised him an Oyster Card. He did pretty much the opposite of what you told him. So much for following your advice.


I advised him not to bother getting Network Rail coverage, and he followed this advice:

_"I ended up buying a 3-day travelcard, because I won't use either rail or DLR services anyway"_

If he chose paper over Oyster (which isn't clear), he'd have spent a little more... But that's his headache.

He certainly saved plenty by not following your advice to get NR coverage so he can go to White Hart Lane, Battersea Park, Twickenham and Selhurst Park

:laugh:

Seriously, give it up... You really making a fool of yourself


----------



## Justme

flierfy said:


> I never praised travelcards as desperate needs. If you could read you would know that I made it dependent of where s/he is going. Your inability to grasp this makes me wonder whether you are intellectual overstrained with reading comprehension, conditional choices or both.
> Either way you can stick your insulting comments where the sun doesn't shine. It would be a great gain for this forum if someone like you got lost.


No need to be so rude to one of the most respected persons on this forum.


----------



## flierfy

Tubeman said:


> I advised him not to bother getting Network Rail coverage, and he followed this advice:
> 
> _"I ended up buying a 3-day travelcard, because I won't use either rail or DLR services anyway"_
> 
> If he chose paper over Oyster (which isn't clear), he'd have spent a little more... But that's his headache.
> 
> He certainly saved plenty by not following your advice to get NR coverage so he can go to White Hart Lane, Battersea Park, Twickenham and Selhurst Park.


Stick to the facts: I advised him an Oyster Card unless he needed NR coverage.
The travelcard he bought after all covered National Rail whether it was wanted or not. So he didn't saved nothing at all. Any travelcard actually covers National rail services in the respective zones:

_Travelcards are great if you plan to travel on the Tube, and *they are also valid on* bus, tram, DLR, London Overground and *National Rail services*._
(Source: tfl.gov.uk)


----------



## lightrail

Okay kids - stop fighting - let's get back on topic


----------



## iampuking

lightrail said:


> Okay kids - stop fighting - let's get back on topic


This thread was dead before so it's an improvement.


----------



## city_thing

lightrail said:


> On the Bakerloo Tube (my favourite line by the way)
> *Elephant and Castle* opened Aug 5, 1906
> 
> *Lambert North *opened on March 10, 1906 as Kennington Road, renamed Westminster Bridge Road on Aug 5, 1906, renamed Lamberth (North) April 15, 1917 and renamed Lamberth North in 1928
> 
> *Waterloo* opened March 10, 1906
> 
> *Embankment* opened on March 10, 1906, renamed Charling Cross (Embankment) on April 6, 1914, renamed Charing Cross on May 9, 1915, renamed Charing Cross Embankment August 4, 1974 , renamed Embankment September 12, 1976
> 
> *Charing Cross * opened on March 10, 1906 as Trafalgar Square, renamed Charing Cross when the interchanged opened on May 1, 1979
> 
> *Piccadilly Circus* opened on March 10, 1906
> 
> *Oxford Circus* opened on March 10, 1906
> 
> *Regents Park* opened on March 10, 1906
> 
> *Baker Street* opened on March 10, 1906
> 
> *Marylebone *opened on March 27, 1907 as Great Central (you'll see the name is still on the tiles in the station), renamed Marylebone on April 4, 1917
> 
> *Edgeware Road* opened on June 15, 1907
> 
> *Paddington* opened Dec 1, 1913
> 
> *Warwick Avenue* opened January 31, 1915
> 
> *Maida Vale* opened January 31, 1915
> 
> *Kilburn Park* opened January 31, 1915
> 
> *Queens Park* opened February 11, 1915
> 
> North of there to North Wembly, stations opened between 1915 and 1917 to Watford Junction, except Carpenders Hill opened in 1919 then moved in 1952.
> 
> North of Stonebridge Park, Bakerloo services were withdrawn on September 24 1982 and then reinstated on June 4, 1984 to Harrow and Weldstone (the Bakerloo shares track with and duplicates mainline services between Queens Park and Harrow and Weldstone, now operated by London Overground). Service north of Harrow and Weldstone is now operated by the Overground, though there's some speculation that the Bakerloo may once again operate to Watford Junction, replacing the Euston - Watford Junction Overground.
> 
> In 1939 the Bakerloo also opened a new line following the Metropolitan Line between Baker Street and Finchley Road, and at that time the Bakerloo took over the stopping service on this route to Wembley Park and the old Metropolitan branch line to Stanmore - this left the Metropolitan to run express from Wembley Park to Baker Street.
> 
> In 1979 when the Jubilee tube was opened, the Stanmore branch of the Bakerloo was transfered to the Jubilee.


Thanks for all the dates, very informative!

I just checked on Wikipedia, and the stations that I had in mind [here in Melbourne] opened around the year 1889, which came as a surprise as I thought they'd have opened a few decades later.


----------



## rheintram

I hat to revive the argument, but in September I'll be in London for four days and I plan to try some PT services that I haven't tried yet, such as DLR and overground. Hence I believe an Oyster Card to be the best choice for me. On the TFL website I saw that there are "Oyster Cards for Overseas Visitors". Does it mean I have to get one before arriving in London, or can I get one right at Heathrow Airport? I didn't quite figure that out.


----------



## ChrisH

^^ You can just buy one at the Heathrow Airport underground station.


----------



## davidaiow

I don't know if this has been shown before, but I found it quite fascinating!
http://web.archive.org/web/20060427094850/http://www.simonclarke.org/lul/
The site gives the well known geographical map, but also strip maps of several lines. I think the site dates 2006, and it no longer exists, but you can use the archiving machine to look at the site. Just thought I'd share for those who haven't seen it and encourage anyone who has seen similar to share too!


----------



## NCT

Post 470 made by lightrail cracked me up!

I love the London Underground - it's full of character, there is such a wide spectrum of architecture style, the attention to detail is immaculate and every now and then it throws some surprises at you. The Metro system in Shanghai (my hometown) is very modern and efficient and all that, but I do find it all a bit ... too homogeneous, and there really aren't many historical stories to tell...

I love the soft cushion seats, and the term 'moquette' just makes it sound classy ... ;D


----------



## rheintram

I started to wonder whether Oyster is really always the best choice. Maybe someone could enlighten me:

I will arrive at about 8:00 in the morning on a Tuesday at Heathrow airport, which is in fare zone six. I will stay near St. Pancras for four days. If I would get an Oyster card I would pay once for the trip from the airport to the hotel and the rest of the day stay in zones 1 and 2. That means my daily cap would be £14.30 because I would do my first journey unfortunately in peak time, according to http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/singlefares/5196.aspx

Now I wonder if that would be really cheaper than getting a 1-2 zones Travelcard for three days (£18,40), which does not differentiate between on and off peak, and pay for the additional trip to Heathrow (£3.20). Of course with the travel card I would need to find an additional solution for my last day. But 18,40 for three days + £3.20 for the Airport trip seems much cheaper to me than £14.30 for the first day only. 

So what's really cheaper? Honestly I'm confused. And then a last question: If I put say £30 on my Oyster card and there is some money left on it. Can I cash it in before I leave?


----------



## NCT

I don't know how capping works exactly. I rather suspect it will cap to the zone 1-2 travelcard (less 50p) while just charging you for the zone 3-6 journey from Heathrow. That's only an educated guess on my part - I'm sure Tubeman will be able to shed more light on this matter.

If you've got excess credit on you card when you hand it back IIRC they will refund the remaining credit.


----------



## Anekdote

Two weeks ago when I was in London, I purchased a 3-days travelcard in Paddington underground station, which is for underground and bus use only. In my opinion the 3-days travelcard was the cheaper way for me. 

Because, I traveled very much much with the underground and buses, I also traveled during peak-time, didn't travel either overground or DLR or used the railservices and I only traveled in the zone 1-2.

Hope it helped you abit.


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## NCT

The Travelcard DOES allow you to travel on national rail services within the zones covered.


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## flierfy

The cap might be at £14.30 for your first day. But that doesn't mean that you'll charge that money. The Oyster fare for the peak time trip form Heathrow T123 to KXSP is £3.80. For any other trip within Zone 1 and 2 they charge you £1.60. So unless you make 7 more trips that day you won't reach the cap.

Presumed you make just two more trips on the first day it'd cost you £7.00.
The next three days £5.10 (off-peak Oyster cap for Zone 1-2) -----£15.30.
and the day you're leaving another £3.80
--------------------------------------------------------
That would be £26.10 in total

The Oyster Card should be cheaper than the Travelcard.


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## Anekdote

Don't really know, the guy in the ticket office told me only underground and buses.


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## rheintram

Thank you flierfly! However I will probably travel more than that. On the last day I only arrive at the airport at around four, which means I would travel before again inside zone 1-2. Well I really got to think it through, it's tricky  I assume Oyster is usually the cheapest, if u don't have to take the route to the Airport twice within a week...

Btw Anekdote: According to the TFL website the travelcards work also on DLR and Overground.


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## Minato ku

Travelcard also work in some national railway services.


----------



## chris.haynes

Possible Future Tube Map:

I drew this up any thoughts ... 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=41318640&postcount=3727


----------



## ajw373

NCT said:


> If you've got excess credit on you card when you hand it back IIRC they will refund the remaining credit.


True as well as the initial deposit on the card.


----------



## mtj73

chris.haynes said:


> Possible Future Tube Map:
> 
> I drew this up any thoughts ...
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=41318640&postcount=3727


Nicely done. Not so long a go I drew the crossrail line with a ball point pen on a standard tube map, have to say yours looks better:=).

One thing I would done different if I knew how to it would be to connect the crossrail stations where they interchange with existing lines.

I noticed you got Goblin extended to Dagenham dock, is that a real proposal? I know the DLR proposal to DD has been scrapped. Not heard anything about a South east line or DLR to West Ham, is that a bit of artistic license?


----------



## chris.haynes

mtj73 said:


> Nicely done. Not so long a go I drew the crossrail line with a ball point pen on a standard tube map, have to say yours looks better:=).
> 
> One thing I would done different if I knew how to it would be to connect the crossrail stations where they interchange with existing lines.
> 
> I noticed you got Goblin extended to Dagenham dock, is that a real proposal? I know the DLR proposal to DD has been scrapped. Not heard anything about a South east line or DLR to West Ham, is that a bit of artistic license?


this map is a mix of fact and fiction really ... 

yeah i need to tweek the crossrail connections your right ... 

the dlr development projects are going ahead arnt they looks like it from the tfl website ... 

Dagenham Dock Extension
Stratford International Extension

There was a feasability study on the DLR extension to Catford aswell so i included that ... 

Ive also extended the northern to clapham junction via battersea and split it into two lines - Northern & Hamptead

Also being a south east londoner i threw in a new line "South East", i have used google aerial maps to look for a possible route that aligns with roads for possible construction, and extended the Jubilee and the bakerloo lines south easterly

iv also upgraded the circle line to hammersmith which is happening later this year i think

and iv swapped over the district and piccadility lines in the west north of action town

did i miss anything?


----------



## sweek

chris.haynes said:


> did i miss anything?


Thameslink and Crossrail 2 if you're interested in adding them?
Also, i think the DLR into Victoria is the only non-45 degree curve... not sure if you want to change that.


----------



## chris.haynes

sweek said:


> Thameslink and Crossrail 2 if you're interested in adding them?
> Also, i think the DLR into Victoria is the only non-45 degree curve... not sure if you want to change that.












its getting a little messy now ... 

iv made a new icon for crossrail stations so its easier to see where there are .., kinda crude bit its a w.i.p

thameslink will be tricky to fit in , may need to redraw some lines to free up space ...


----------



## hans280

*When it all started*

I feel like piping up with a quick question - partly inspired by the fact that I live in Paris, which also has a large, old underground railway system. 

Let me start by saying that I sympathise with Londoners and others on this thread who get a bit tired of tirades to the tune that "the underground is creaky and smelly". I've had similar discussions about the Paris Metro with colleagues previously based in East Asia who go out of their way to tell me that the underground of Singapore, Taipei, Seoul, whereever is soooOOO much better. Yeah, sure. They're built two generations later, by people who used heavy engineering machines and power tools, as opposed to the shovels and pickaxes that gave us the Metro. Inevitably, plenty of things look crummy by the standards of modern comforts of the 21st century (and don't even get me started on the issue of handicap access....). That said...

...I've been wondering about one thing. It occurs to me that the Metro and the Underground shares two problems: (1) heat; and (2) stale air. In the shallow cut-and-cover tunnels (and hotter summers) of Paris (1) is more important than (2). In my experience with the Underground, (2) is more important than (1). Now, in the days of Queen Victoria and La Troisieme Republique no one had heard of air conditioning, but they HAD heard of fresh air. Nevertheless, in Paris (and in London as far as I know) the metro lines run between stations without one single air shaft. Such little fresh air as enters the system does so via the stations. Even in year 1900 it must have been clear to people that this could be a source of serious inconvenience. 

I've asked around among French metro lovers if anyone can tell me why our ancestors didn't simply add a shaft here and there (admittedly this would be cheaper and easier in Paris than in London), but nobody seems to know. Does anybody on this forum have sufficient historical knowledge to answer the question for London. My theory would be that it is mainly because the usage was much more sparse in the old days, plus perhaps that the weather was colder in those days.


----------



## poshbakerloo

hans280 said:


> I feel like piping up with a quick question - partly inspired by the fact that I live in Paris, which also has a large, old underground railway system.
> 
> Let me start by saying that I sympathise with Londoners and others on this thread who get a bit tired of tirades to the tune that "the underground is creaky and smelly". I've had similar discussions about the Paris Metro with colleagues previously based in East Asia who go out of their way to tell me that the underground of Singapore, Taipei, Seoul, whereever is soooOOO much better. Yeah, sure. They're built two generations later, by people who used heavy engineering machines and power tools, as opposed to the shovels and pickaxes that gave us the Metro. Inevitably, plenty of things look crummy by the standards of modern comforts of the 21st century (and don't even get me started on the issue of handicap access....).


I so totally hear you..."Oh London Underground is just smelling and old"hno: Mostly said by people who haven't even been to the UK! Its very big and very old...but one of the best in the world (Yes I am aware that is don't run 24/7)...:nuts:


----------



## Acemcbuller

hans280 said:


> Now, in the days of Queen Victoria and La Troisieme Republique no one had heard of air conditioning, but they HAD heard of fresh air. Nevertheless, in Paris (and in London as far as I know) the metro lines run between stations without one single air shaft. Such little fresh air as enters the system does so via the stations. Even in year 1900 it must have been clear to people that this could be a source of serious inconvenience.



It was cooler down there then. The tunnels have warmed continuously since then as the heat cannot escape. See: http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2008/03/12/cooling-the-london-underground/


----------



## The Chemist

poshbakerloo said:


> I so totally hear you..."Oh London Underground is just smelling and old"hno: Mostly said by people who haven't even been to the UK! Its very big and very old...but one of the best in the world (Yes I am aware that is don't run 24/7)...:nuts:


I've got quite a bit of experience with the Underground, and while it's got its foibles, I certainly agree with you that it's one of the best. I never noticed any bad smells when I used it, and while the age is an issue, I feel that it gives the Tube a character that you don't find on newer metro systems. For example, the Metro here in Shanghai (to be the world's largest by next year) may be convenient, extensive, cheap, and air conditioned (absolutely essential in Shanghai summers!), but owing to its young age (the oldest sections of line 1 are only 15 years old) it lacks a certain character. I wouldn't quite go and say it's soulless, but it certainly lacks the soul of an old system like the Underground.


----------



## Pansori

When I'm stuck in an overcrowded and claustrophobic Underground train "due to a signal failure" with a temperature of over 30 C, "character" and "soul" of the system is among the last things I think about. :|

To me speedy and smooth travel (with some fresh air, of course) is all I care about. As, I guess, so do 99.99% of other commuters using any system in the world on a daily basis.


----------



## hans280

Acemcbuller said:


> It was cooler down there then. The tunnels have warmed continuously since then as the heat cannot escape. See: http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2008/03/12/cooling-the-london-underground/


Many thanks for the link. Yeah, it brings back the memory of something I read, in a non-specialist article in a normal Parisian newspaper, years ago: the journalist reviewed some of the articles about the opening of metro line 1 100 years earlier and he was astounded to read his long-dead colleague exalt over the fact that "...and moreover, this new mode of transport offers agreeably ambient temperatures to escape from the summer heat." This was not how 21st century Parisians would describe the metro. :lol: But it probably points to the same think that your article says: initially there was a mass of damp, cool soil around the stations. Eventually it got dried out and warmed up.

I have to admire the simple solution that my compatriotes in Copenhagen chose: keep each metro station open upwards, all the way up to surface level. Like that, every station acts as a cooling tower. All you need to do is to have a couple of big fans in the ceiling. However, this solution couldn't be replicated in Paris and London - even if we started from scratch. The cities are much more compact than "tiny" Copenhagen; there's no space for such luxuries.


----------



## hkskyline

*Map reveals London Tube's hottest lines *
24 August 2009

LONDON (AP) - A map of the warmest spots of London's subway system was released Monday, revealing what commuters already know: It can get hot on the Tube.

The world's oldest subway system is not air conditioned, and as London temperatures reach 30 Celsius (86 Fahrenheit) this summer, commuters crammed into cars often gasp for air each time the doors open to let even more passengers on board.

The new heat map -- published Monday by The Times of London but not yet officially made public -- shows measures for the temperatures in each of the 11 Tube line's tunnels can get as hot as 30 C (86 F). That is also the maximum temperature for transporting cattle to slaughter houses, according to the U.K.'s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

Even the cooler lines, though, rarely drop below 26 C (79 F) during the Tube's busiest times. And while the map measures tunnel temperatures, it can often seem hotter in the train cars. Transport for London officials say they don't actually check the temperatures in the cars -- so it is really anyone's guess.

"It feels like a sauna down there," said 69-year-old retiree Angela Harding from north London who travels on the Northern Line.

The map, set against a black background, lays out each of the Tube tunnel's maximum temperatures by replacing the regular map shades with a color-coded temperature guide going from soft green to yellow-orange and then to red.

The Tube's narrow tunnels, built long-before air conditioning was invented, are only large enough to fit trains.

Transport for London said the map has long been used by engineers responsible for keeping the London Underground bearable for commuters -- the so-called Cooling the Tube team. Over the next five years the team plans to double the capacity of fans at all of the main ventilation shafts on the Victoria Line in an effort to cool it down.

The map offered little consolation, however, to overheated commuters climbing down a spiral staircase of more than 90 steps Monday to reach the platforms of the Northern Line's Camden station -- more than 200 feet (about 60 meters) below ground.

"I doubt we'll be treated to the luxury of air conditioning anytime soon," said Deepika Sharma, a 24-year-old medical student from Southall in west London.

The London Underground's hot weather tips to commuters -- interspersed with regular announcements on people fainting -- include carrying a bottle of water at all times and not boarding the trains if they feel unwell.

London Mayor Boris Johnson has said the first air-conditioned trains should be running next year on the network's Metropolitan Line. By 2015, air conditioning is expected on four lines, or less than half of the system.

In the meantime, millions of Londoners will have to struggle through the heat, with little alternative to the far-reaching transport network.

"As long as it gets me to work on time, I'm not bothered about the heat," said 31-year-old Alison Lindsey who teaches at a school in east London one hour from her home.


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## flierfy

There is a lot of proposals to add a more lines to the underground network. Whether it's a complete new Chelsea & Hackney line or the split of the Northern line.

Now I wonder whether there are any shades of colour left for new underground lines. By now each line has its individual colour. But it seems to me that there isn't much left. Not under the premise that the colours are distinguishable. What do you think?


----------



## Pansori

flierfy said:


> There is a lot of proposals to add a more lines to the underground network. Whether it's a complete new Chelsea & Hackney line or the split of the Northern line.
> 
> Now I wonder whether there are any shades of colour left for new underground lines. By now each line has its individual colour. But it seems to me that there isn't much left. Not under the premise that the colours are distinguishable. What do you think?


I think there are more important issues in LU than the choice of colors... how to make it work at least reasonably well, for example. :|


----------



## Lucky Lukas

*New interchanges for London*

Here you can suggest your favourite candidates for new interchange stations in London. Particularly London needs some new interchanges for the London Overground for it to be more viable. I'm going to start with Acton, where the NLL passes over the central line about 150m shy of North Acton tube station. Now, I'm sure folks could walk that far if a walkway were provided, but in my ideal scenario we'd rebuild the central line platforms down the track and build new Overground platforms on a viaduct across it. Like so:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?oe...d=108715885490600493049.00047df25c58fe24510cc


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## iampuking

I'd also like a NR station there that in the future could be used by Crossrail. Or alternatively, Crossrail sent via Willesden Junction and Willesden Junction gets platforms on the WCML.


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## dmarney

*LONDON | The London Underground*













THE LONDON UNDERGROUND




MAP​










FACTS​
*Locale* :Greater London, Chiltern, Epping Forest, Three Rivers and Watford 

*Transit type *:Rapid transit 

*Number of lines *:11 

*Number of stations *:270 served (260 owned) 

*Daily ridership *:2.95 million-3.4 million (Approximate) 



*Wikipedia description:*


The London Underground is a rapid transit system serving a large part of Greater London and neighbouring areas of Essex, Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire in the UK. The first section opened in 1863, and was the first underground railway system in the world, and, starting in 1890, it was also the first to operate electric trains. Despite the name, about 55% of the network is above ground. It is usually referred to officially as 'the Underground' and colloquially as the Tube, although the latter term originally applied only to the deep-level bored lines, to distinguish them from the sub-surface "cut and cover" lines that were built first. More recently this distinction has been lost and the whole system is now referred to as 'the Tube', even in recent years by its operator in official publicity.

The earlier lines of the present London Underground network were built by various private companies. Apart from the main line railways, they became part of an integrated transport system in 1933 when the London Passenger Transport Board (LPTB) or London Transport was created. The underground network became a single entity in 1985, when the UK government created London Underground Limited (LUL). Since 2003 LUL has been a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL), the statutory corporation responsible for most aspects of the transport system in Greater London, which is run by a board and a commissioner appointed by the Mayor of London.

The Underground has 270 stations and about 400 km (250 miles) of track, making it the one of the longest metro system in the world by route length. It also has one of the highest number of stations. In 2007, more than one billion passenger journeys were recorded, making it the busiest metro system in Europe after Paris and Moscow.

The tube map, with its schematic non-geographical layout and colour-coded lines, is considered a design classic, and many other transport maps worldwide have been influenced by it.


*LINES*​

BAKERLOO LINE (1906)

CENTRAL LINE (1900)

CIRCLE LINE (1884)

DISTRICT LINE (1868)

HAMMERSMITH AND CITY LINE (1988)

JUBILEE LINE (1979)

METROPOLITAN LINE (1863)

NORTHERN LINE (1890)

PICCADILLY LINE (1906)

VICTORIA LINE (1968)

WATERLOO AND CITY LINE (1898)




*Some Pictures*
_All from Trainweb-Tubeprune_


STATIONS
































































TRAINS

_THESE AREN'T ALL THE TYPES OF TRAINS_
























































If you need anymore information about The London Underground, I definetly recommend this website:
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/index.htm


Official Website: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/modalpages/2625.aspx[/CENTER]


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## sweek

It's probably bet to also mention the DLR and the Overground on here, if you're doing a thread on the London Underground. They are on the map you posted after all!


----------



## dmarney

Ah yeh, but i'll have to do that tomorrow, i need sleep!


----------



## iampuking

There are already two threads on the London Underground itself... And numerous threads about other aspects of it. Do we really need another one and will you even update this one?


----------



## dmarney

I didn't see any close to the front, and I will update it/add to it often. I thought all the old threads were being deleted to de-clutter the forum, so i made this one so that a new london could stay on the first page


----------



## poshbakerloo

I really like some of the sub-level stations like Earls Court and Notting Hall Gate (District/Circle Line), they are built like main line heavy rail stations!


----------



## PortoNuts

A tour of the Northern Line.


----------



## ajw373

poshbakerloo said:


> I really like some of the sub-level stations like Earls Court and Notting Hall Gate (District/Circle Line), they are built like main line heavy rail stations!


That is because that is what they are. Go back through history and you will see that the first underground lines were extensions of then mainline trains into the city. 

The small tube lines came later, though again in many cases connected mainline suburban stations to the city.


----------



## poshbakerloo

ajw373 said:


> That is because that is what they are. Go back through history and you will see that the first underground lines were extensions of then mainline trains into the city.
> 
> The small tube lines came later, though again in many cases connected mainline suburban stations to the city.


yeh well i guess the met pretty much was main line


----------



## PortoNuts

A journey between Paddington and Embankment.:cheers:


----------



## streetquark

ajw373 said:


> That is because that is what they are. Go back through history and you will see that the first underground lines were extensions of then mainline trains into the city.
> 
> The small tube lines came later, though again in many cases connected mainline suburban stations to the city.


The sub-surface lines were/are mainline in the sense of full-sized lines linking mainline railways. The original idea was for the Met to have a proper Mainline terminus at Farringdon or around the Moorgate area but this never worked out and Moorgate never became more than minor terminus. The District tried to turn Earls Court and South Kensington into mainline termini but the interest wasn't there. The District was founded as a branch line network which is what the Met became. It's branch to Harrow and Rickmansworth eventually reached Aylesbury which is quite a long way but it wasn't built as a mainline. It reached Verney Junction and was used by the GCR for mainline trains, followed by the Met having its own express tracks, which certainly showed the line was useful for the last mainline railway to reach London to use..


----------



## poshbakerloo

The tube didn't really become what we know it as today until the 1920s, since then its only really been the addition of the Victorian and Jubilee Lines that have changed the central area...


----------



## PortoNuts

Loads of improvement being done in London's rail transportation network.


----------



## iampuking

New 2009 Stock in service on the Victoria line from Finsbury Park to Seven Sisters:


----------



## PortoNuts

Great video :cheers:.
*
Wembley Central Station (Bakerloo Line)*


















flickr


----------



## davidaiow

^ That is appalling! Jesus how hard is it to give a station a lick of pain these days


----------



## iampuking

That station is one of the worst on the network... And those aren't even the LU platforms.


----------



## Tubeman

It's been refurbished recently I think... That photo is I assume at least a couple of years old (Silverlink branding). But yes, it's a pretty grim spot (then again so is Wembley).


----------



## PortoNuts

Obviously, nothing can beat the later Jubilee Line stations. At last for now.


----------



## iampuking

PortoNuts said:


> Obviously, nothing can beat the later Jubilee Line stations. At last for now.


I disagree, some 1800s sub-surface stations are just as attractive as the stations on the Jubilee line extension...


----------



## PortoNuts

Ok .


----------



## poshbakerloo

PortoNuts said:


> Obviously, nothing can beat the later Jubilee Line stations. At last for now.


But nothing could ever beat the Circle/District Line platforms at Notting Hill Gate!


----------



## PortoNuts

Of course I was speaking about the general look of the stations, in terms of cleanliness, modernity, etc. The older stations have a charm, no doubt about that.


----------



## iampuking

Another video of the new Victoria line 2009 Stock, this time departing Highbury & Islington. The acceleration compared to the sluggish 67TS really is noticeable!


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## Comfortably Numb

Being a bit of a train nerd, I'm a huge fan of the London Underground in general. Part of the enjoyment of visiting London for me has always been using the Underground. I even miss that "musty" smell and the extremely talented buskers.

Tubeman, I wish I had your job!


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## PortoNuts

Sorry about that :cheers:. It's quite a long time since I've used that station. 

That giant panda face :nuts:!


----------



## marciomaco

^^

:rofl:


----------



## PortoNuts

*Mansion House - Circle/District lines*


----------



## PortoNuts

*Moorgate Station - Northern/Circle/Hammersmith & City/ Metropolitan Lines*










*Holborn Station - Piccadilly Line*









flickr


----------



## PortoNuts

*Lancaster Gate station - Central Line*









flickr


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## poshbakerloo

London Underground always has a few surprises when travelling! Love it!


----------



## Upminster

Some very excellent photography and information, thank you. I have explored metro systems all over the world, and each has its appeal, but the London Underground was my first and will always be special to me.


----------



## PortoNuts

The Tube has something special about it. Maybe because it's a classic, it's the oldest one.

*Charing Cross station - Northern/Bakerloo Lines*


















flickr


----------



## TsLeng

Gloucester Road Giant Panda face brings back nice memories  

Miss traveling along that line.


----------



## Dale

Does anyone know which tube station was prominently featured in the movie An American Werewolf in London ?


----------



## CairnsTony

Dale said:


> Does anyone know which tube station was prominently featured in the movie An American Werewolf in London ?


I believe it was Aldwych, a now closed station that existed on a little stub of the Piccadilly Line. It was served by a shuttle service to and from Holborn. 

I think it's been used for a lot of filming where a tube station has been required for a scene.


----------



## davidaiow

Although it's true that Adlwych is used a lot for filming (as is W&C Bank I believe), according to "London Film Location Guide" (James,2007) It was Tottenham Court Road. Of course it could just be masquerading as that station.


----------



## PortoNuts

*Knightsbridge station*


----------



## Dale

Thanks, guys.


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## poshbakerloo

CairnsTony said:


> I believe it was Aldwych, a now closed station that existed on a little stub of the Piccadilly Line. It was served by a shuttle service to and from Holborn.
> 
> I think it's been used for a lot of filming where a tube station has been required for a scene.


Aldwych features in the horror movie Creep as does (I think) Down Street!


----------



## PortoNuts

Escalators at Holborn Station









flickr


----------



## poshbakerloo

PortoNuts said:


> Escalators at Holborn Station


Are there any photos of the ones at Angel? They are the longest!


----------



## Tubeman

poshbakerloo said:


> Are there any photos of the ones at Angel? They are the longest!


I prefer this video :colgate:


----------



## PortoNuts

No kidding. 

Had he lost his balance...


----------



## Acemcbuller

Dale said:


> Does anyone know which tube station was prominently featured in the movie An American Werewolf in London ?


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=american+werewolf+in+london+tube+station


----------



## Tubeman

marciomaco said:


> When they start the Chelsea-Hackney line?


Not before Crossrail 1 is completed, if at all... I reckon 2020 at the earliest


----------



## marciomaco

^^ O.O

They are thinking about construct new lines?


----------



## iampuking

marciomaco said:


> ^^ O.O
> 
> They are thinking about construct new lines?


They are constructing a new line... Crossrail.


----------



## freyd

Reclaimed Canary Wharf and Manchester are similar - pointless on the dirty soil.


----------



## Cherguevara

freyd said:


> Reclaimed Canary Wharf and Manchester are similar - pointless on the dirty soil.


Sorry I don't follow. Similar in what way? What is pointless?


----------



## Tubeman

Cherguevara said:


> Sorry I don't follow. Similar in what way? What is pointless?


Don't worry about it... Judging from his other posts, he is insane. Ignore.


----------



## CairnsTony

Tubeman said:


> Don't worry about it... Judging from his other posts, he is insane. Ignore.


As a mental health nurse, I'm sorry to say I agree. I hope he/she gets the help they need soon.


----------



## marciomaco

iampuking said:


> They are constructing a new line... Crossrail.


That's not really "subway". I'm talking about London Underground...:bash:


----------



## Manchester Planner

marciomaco said:


> That's not really "subway". I'm talking about London Underground...:bash:


Eh? Calm down! Crossrail may not be part of the London Underground network, but it is an underground railway similar to a tube line. And will no doubt appear on Underground maps and be used by passengers as though it were part of the Underground network.

As for a new London Underground line... none planned (for the near future) as far as I'm aware. There are DLR extensions planned, including one which could go quite a way through central London all underground (Bank to Victoria) and then there's Crossrail, Thameslink, Hackney-Chelsea, ELR extension...


----------



## davidaiow

This, to me, does entail a few questions- Will we see any more London Underground lines? Or will they now all be Crossrail? In the future, will Cross rail replace the current tube lines? Central seems pretty well served, do we need any more lines/station in the Central Area (WestEnd, Westminster and City)? Will Trams now be the better option?


----------



## iampuking

marciomaco said:


> That's not really "subway". I'm talking about London Underground...:bash:


Crossrail will run straight through Central London with 24tph in the peaks, and 240m trains, sounds pretty much like a metro to me.



davidaiow said:


> This, to me, does entail a few questions- Will we see any more London Underground lines? Or will they now all be Crossrail? In the future, will Cross rail replace the current tube lines? Central seems pretty well served, do we need any more lines/station in the Central Area (WestEnd, Westminster and City)? Will Trams now be the better option?


Crossrail will be integrated with the Tube but is not intended to replace any of it, much like the RER and the Metro in Paris.

As to whether or not there will be more Tube lines it is hard to say. Currently it is unclear whether the future Chelsea-Hackney line will be a more of a Tube line or a Crossrail line. Personally I think it should be somehwere in between, i.e. the high frequency (30tph and over) and segregation of a tube line but with Crossrail-size loading guage. There are also numerous proposals to extend the Victoria, Bakerloo and Charing Cross branch of the Northern line further into South London

I can't think of any part of Central London that needs to be better served, but I can think of several places in Zone 2 that do.


----------



## iampuking

Another video of the new Victoria line trains, this time amply demonstrating that the new trains aren't any quieter than the current trains.


----------



## CairnsTony

iampuking said:


> .
> I can't think of any part of Central London that needs to be better served, but I can think of several places in Zone 2 that do.


I certainly agree that Zone 2 could be better served by the tube, especially in South London. 

Having said that, I think there is still potential for new lines/stations in Central London even after CR 1 & (hopefully) 2. Much of the system is close to or at full capacity, and projections suggest that the system is set to get busier.

For example, I once worked near Russell Square and I remember how congested that station and the trains were at rush hour. I also once worked near the intersection of Marsham St. and Horseferry Road and could really have done with a tube station in the general vicinity instead of a long foot slog to Victoria. In addition I once lived in Bloomsbury and could have done with a station nearby, maybe on the Metropolitan/Circle.

There have been plans for tube lines in the past in Central London which have never come to fruition: one would have run East-West from Hammersmith to Olympia, High St. Kensington, Albert Hall, Hyde Park Corner and on to Charing Cross where it would have continued on to the city on the same alignment as the proposed extension of the DLR. I wonder if the DLR would have sufficient capacity to run through Central London...

The original Chelsey-Hackney line as I understand, would've run East from Vic to that previously alluded station at the Marsham/Horseferry intersection, on to Waterloo before swinging north to Aldwych and Holborn, then East to Farringdon and Old Street before continuing into North East London. I think the route changed as commuter patterns changed, but bits of this route could still be useful additions to the network. I think the Cross London Tram would have catered for at least some similar journeys between Holborn and Waterloo.

Ah well, one can dream...


----------



## PortoNuts

*Swiss Cottage Station - Jubilee Line*


















flickr


----------



## marciomaco

Why not a new circle line in Zone 2?


----------



## iampuking

marciomaco said:


> Why not a new circle line in Zone 2?


This is London Overground.


----------



## fly2345

^^ Nice pictures -


London Underground is supposed to be the best transport system on the globe - it must work smooth as far as there is no ugly wish to stem it working normal.


----------



## fly2345

I remember Bank Station has a large gap between the train and platform! 


London Underground is an art. 

Still the best, compared to the other transit system around the world, it is the most comprehensive to me.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## ladyb

fly2345 said:


> I remember Bank Station has a large gap between the train and platform!
> 
> 
> London Underground is an art.
> 
> Still the best, compared to the other transit system around the world, it is the most comprehensive to me.


This is on the Central Line platforms and it's because the there is quite a curve in that part of the tunnel.


----------



## iampuking

fly2345 said:


> I remember Bank Station has a large gap between the train and platform!


It sure does. 








fly2345 said:


> London Underground is supposed to be the best transport system on the globe - it must work smooth as far as there is no ugly wish to stem it working normal.


Spoken as someone who, no doubt, doesn't live in London.


----------



## PortoNuts

*Liverpool Street Station - Circle/Metropolitan/Hammersmith & City*


















flickr


----------



## DanielFigFoz

iampuking said:


> It sure does.
> 
> Spoken as someone who, no doubt, doesn't live in London.


Considering that it it enormous it does work well, we are lucky.


----------



## PortoNuts

It's not only enormous, but quite old comparing to most mass transit systems around the world.


----------



## Davodavo

PortoNuts said:


> It's not only enormous, but quite old comparing to most mass transit systems around the world.


Well, it is, but they are working hard to change that situation. By the Olympics good progress will have been done.

It is older that many metro systems, but also newer than many other ones, for instance New York (actually that's not a subway, it is nothing but a piece of shit).


----------



## PortoNuts

I was not saying that there hasn't been any progress. Quite the contrary . Especially in connection with Overground and Crossrail.

I was saying that it needs to be taken in account that it's very old and people can't expect perfection from the Tube.


----------



## Davodavo

Well right, I meant modern sorry. However there's still plenty of work that needs to be done


----------



## TheMoses

Davodavo said:


> It is older that many metro systems, but also newer than many other ones, for instance New York (actually that's not a subway, it is nothing but a piece of shit).


Er, I'm pretty sure the London Underground is the oldest in the world. The first line of the London Underground opened in 1863. The first (underground) line of the New York subway opened in 1904. Even if you count the first New York Subway line as the first elevated line (which seems a bit daft as it is a SUBway) then it was constructed 1867-1870.


----------



## iampuking

^^ LU is the oldest metro system in the world.


----------



## WatcherZero

Unless you count Gondola services in Venice or waterbuses on the Thames.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## iampuking

WatcherZero said:


> Unless you count Gondola services in Venice or waterbuses on the Thames.


Metro systems, as in, underground high frequency railway.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## davidaiow

I can see that island platform becoming a little dangerous during the rush hour no?
Thanks for the uploads!


----------



## PortoNuts

Perhaps, but I don't think this kind of platform is that common in the Tube. There's usually a linking tunnel between the platforms.


----------



## Tubeman

This only remains at 2 locations; Clapham Common and Clapham North.

Many of the original City & South London Railway's stations had this layout, but with time the number has dwindled through modernisation works (e.g. Angel) or reconfiguration due to new interchanges (e.g. Euston and Stockwell, with the Victoria Line).

One of the reasons why Angel was reconfigured was explicitly because the narrow island platform was becoming dangerously crowded.


----------



## PortoNuts

Yes, I checked it, it's one of the two remaining.

Thanks :cheers2:


----------



## coth

There has been some statements on the board claiming that London Underground have no mobile coverage? Is it true?


----------



## Pansori

It surely is true, there is no mobile coverage in the underground and that is one of the most annoying things (apart from many others, of which there are more than plenty).

There were some plans to introduce mobile reception in some stations. Are they still on the agenda? 

Anyway, that's what keeps the traditional British newspaper industry alive


----------



## davidaiow

^If they were to introduce coverage, I personally only want people to be able to text or use other silent activities. I don't want to hear people doing business or talking about their 'happening' social life on the tube. That's what buses are for!


----------



## iampuking

Pansori said:


> I find it unattractive and I don't see a problem expressing my opinion on that just as I don't have a problem with anyone expressing their opinion on the matters relating to London Underground even if I disagree with their point of view.


So you'd prefer it if everwhere had no character or spirit? Okay.



ajw373 said:


> You clearly haven't been there recently then! Though in defence of the station it is undergoing a VERY VERY VERY slow refurbishment. Will look nice once they eventually finish it. Hopefully before I leave this country in 10 months time. Would be ironic actually as the refurb started when I first arrived about 3 years ago.


The fifites subterrenean section of the station is grotty, but the original part is spacious and attractive.












Comfortably Numb said:


> For some reason, I am oddly drawn to the chick on the left with the "kinky boots".


Those look like normal boots to me... British women are known for wearing boots a lot.


----------



## Pansori

iampuking said:


> So you'd prefer it if everwhere had no character or spirit? Okay.


Did I say that? Show me.

The stations, above all, must be functional, spacious, comfortable and have appropriate facilities. The presence of "character" is of no importance to me or most commuters who use it daily.

This is why stations of the new part of Jubilee line (as well as some other new/reconstructed stations) are the best ones. Even in visual terms they look much more apealing and cosy than the old ones with "character". The latter being just my personal perception which I'm not trying to show as a "truth".


----------



## ajw373

iampuking said:


> The fifites subterrenean section of the station is grotty, but the original part is spacious and attractive.


Notting Hill Gate is my local station and I can assure you it doesn't look anything like that at present which was the point of my post. 

Whilst of course the structure is impressive, for anyone who might have visited the station for the first time in the last 6-12 months (since they started the refurb of the upper platforms) you would think it is a worn out grotty station.

I reckon it will be one of the better looking stations if ever they finish the refurb. Provided of course they do a good clean once they have finisged. I have noticed at other stations they do a refurb and by the time they finish the first parts are already filthy and they don't do a final spit and polish.


----------



## iampuking

Pansori said:


> Did I say that? Show me.





> _It isn't that you think *"character" and "spirit"* is unattractive_





Pansori said:


> *I find it unattractive* and I don't see a problem expressing my opinion on that just as I don't have a problem with anyone expressing their opinion on the matters relating to London Underground even if I disagree with their point of view.


You think character and spirit is unattractive, therefore, by extension, you don't think anywhere should have it.



Pansori said:


> The stations, above all, must be functional, spacious, comfortable and have appropriate facilities. The presence of "character" is of no importance to me or most commuters who use it daily.


Yes, and the stations in London which have "character" are also functional as well. The "character" has no bearing on the functionality of the station.



Pansori said:


> The stations, above all, must be functional, spacious, comfortable and have appropriate facilities. The presence of "character" is of no importance to me or most commuters who use it daily.
> 
> This is why stations of the new part of Jubilee line (as well as some other new/reconstructed stations) are the best ones. Even in visual terms they look much more apealing and cosy than the old ones with "character". The latter being just my personal perception which I'm not trying to show as a "truth".


The stations on the Jubilee line are attractive, I agree, but they are not the only attractive stations on LU. Attractiveness, from a forumers viewpoint, is a visual thing and has little to do with the purpose of the object at hand. I therefore disagree that it has anything to do with the functionality. The stations on most Chinese metros are unattractive to me, and they are functional.



ajw373 said:


> Notting Hill Gate is my local station and I can assure you it doesn't look anything like that at present which was the point of my post.
> 
> Whilst of course the structure is impressive, for anyone who might have visited the station for the first time in the last 6-12 months (since they started the refurb of the upper platforms) you would think it is a worn out grotty station.
> 
> I reckon it will be one of the better looking stations if ever they finish the refurb. Provided of course they do a good clean once they have finisged. I have noticed at other stations they do a refurb and by the time they finish the first parts are already filthy and they don't do a final spit and polish.


So you're saying the platforms are under refurbishment, I assume it's similar to what happenned to the District platforms at Earl's Court and the roof is covered in scaffolding? If this is the case, why have you brought it up? What does the temporary state of the station have to do with what I was discussing?


----------



## PortoNuts

*Gants Hill Station - Central Line*




































flickr


----------



## iampuking

^^ This station was "inspired" by the Moscow Metro, although without the socialist propaganda and precious stone.


----------



## Comfortably Numb

Lene_m said:


> Canary Wharf - Norman Foster.
> 
> It's a cathedral, the God Bless the UK!


That's the coolest looking station I've ever seen.


----------



## PortoNuts

iampuking said:


> ^^ This station was "inspired" by the Moscow Metro, although without the socialist propaganda and precious stone.


Yes, it can clearly be noted by the central hall. AndI think it's a great looking station.:cheers:


----------



## Pansori

Does anyone have the info about the LU being the longest system in the world? I.e. when it did become the largest in terms of route length? Was it all the way from the beginning or was it later?


----------



## Apoc89

iampuking said:


> ^^ This station was "inspired" by the Moscow Metro, although without the socialist propaganda and precious stone.


Even without the lavish decorations of its inspiration, that's a pretty pleasant layout. Would be nice to see it on other LU stations, although I don't know how well it is at handling crowds and such.


----------



## iampuking

Apoc89 said:


> Even without the lavish decorations of its inspiration, that's a pretty pleasant layout. Would be nice to see it on other LU stations, although I don't know how well it is at handling crowds and such.


Well Gants Hill is rather a quiet station so it's hard to guess. It obviously handles crowds better than most deep level stations which are far more cramped.

The only other station with a long, wide central hall like Gants Hill is London Bridge on both the Northern and the Jubilee lines. The former however was constructed by building a new tunnel adjacent to the existing two-tunnel layout. The latter was built from scratch and, unlike Gants Hill, was not inspired by the Moscow Metro.

London Bridge (Jubilee line)

See a video here.


----------



## coth

Apoc89 said:


> Even without the lavish decorations of its inspiration, that's a pretty pleasant layout. Would be nice to see it on other LU stations, although I don't know how well it is at handling crowds and such.


The central hall handling it very well, removing most of passenger's flow from platforms. That is the main reason why it was actively used in the center from late 1930's.


----------



## allurban

PortoNuts said:


> *Gants Hill Station - Central Line*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flickr


How I wish we could have an interior like this in some of Toronto's island-platform stations!

Cheers, m


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## iranair777

Pansori said:


> Does anyone have the info about the LU being the longest system in the world? I.e. when it did become the largest in terms of route length? Was it all the way from the beginning or was it later?


If you look at this photo album, it shows you how much the tube has changed (I took it with my camera phone hence the quality)

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=183652&id=536097268

between 41-50 would be the longest route, which is currently the case; West Ruislip to Epping without changing. 

although in 1898 you could have gone from new cross gate all the way to windsor via the district line which might be further


----------



## manrush

I was wondering: is the loading gauge of the Underground's new S-stock, or any subsurface stock, wider than that of British mainline railways?


----------



## PortoNuts

*Tunnel at Goodge Street Station*









flickr


----------



## TedStriker

manrush said:


> I was wondering: is the loading gauge of the Underground's new S-stock, or any subsurface stock, wider than that of British mainline railways?


I'm sure that the existing sub-surface stock is wider than the average stock in use across the main line network. 

With regards to the new S-stock, I'm not sure.


----------



## Minato ku

Isn't the Metropolitan line A stock the widest in Britan ?


----------



## iampuking

^^ It is. The S Stock however will not be the widest in Britain as they have to fit everywhere on the SSLs whereas the A Stock used the wider tunnels on the northern side of the Circle.


----------



## Tubeman

^^
The Leytonstone - Newbury Park section of the Central Line is very shallow compared to most Tube lines, so the stations are cut & cover 'boxes' rather than the traditional stations which are bored Tubes of a wider diameter than the running tunnels. The line was built around about the same time as the roads and housing above, so this was feasible.


----------



## PortoNuts

That station looks very Soviet just like Gants Hill, inspired by the Moscow Metro.


----------



## Harrow + London

Really? Redbridge doesn't look as ornate or symmetrical as those metros. Looks more like a regular LU station to me. Still, everyone's opinion's different


----------



## PortoNuts

Obvisouly it doesn't have the ostentious decoration of Moscow Metro but it resembles its layout. And it certainly doesn't look like a regular LU station.


----------



## Comfortably Numb

Tubeman said:


> ^^
> The Leytonstone - Newbury Park section of the Central Line is very shallow compared to most Tube lines, so the stations are cut & cover 'boxes' rather than the traditional stations which are bored Tubes of a wider diameter than the running tunnels. The line was built around about the same time as the roads and housing above, so this was feasible.


Hi Tubeman....I didn't know that about the Central Line. I can't say that Ive used the Central Line much though. It just caught my eye how unorthodox this particular station looked, in relation to the most common format of station on the London Underground. I have never rode the Metropolitan Line and I'd love to see some stations from that too. Sorry....I'm kind of fascinated by the London Underground!


----------



## iampuking

^^ Redbridge station is cut-and-cover, whereas most tube stations are bored. What makes it unusual is that it's a cut-and-cover station on a 'tube' line, and that unlike most of the cut-and-cover stations it is an island platform. Other stations like this are on the end of the Piccadilly line's Heathrow branch (Hounslow West, Hatton Cross, all Heathrow stations) and on the 21st century section of the Jubilee line (Canada Water, Canary Wharf, North Greenwich). I think Gants Hill, next stop down the line from Redbridge, is cut-and-cover too, but the platform tunnels look bored.


----------



## Tubeman

Comfortably Numb said:


> Hi Tubeman....I didn't know that about the Central Line. I can't say that Ive used the Central Line much though. It just caught my eye how unorthodox this particular station looked, in relation to the most common format of station on the London Underground. I have never rode the Metropolitan Line and I'd love to see some stations from that too. Sorry....I'm kind of fascinated by the London Underground!


Only a very short section, the vast bulk of the tunnelled sections of the Central Line are like the other deep-level tubes.

In fact, I'm a little surprised that the Leytonstone - Newbury Park section wasn't cut & cover full stop... The streets above are Interwar, I don't know when the A12 Eastern Avenue above was laid out, but I'm guessing early 1930's, and the railway below was already largely structurally complete when the war broke out in 1939 (the tunnels were used as an aircraft parts factory). It just seems very short-sighted to be boring a Tube line under a road less than a decade old.


----------



## iampuking

Brilliant video of the new 2009 Stock in service on the Victoria line from Oxford Circus to Stockwell.


----------



## PortoNuts

^^It seems that LU has been investing a lot more in new rolling stock than back then. Wasn't some early 1970's rolling stock still in use in this past decade?


----------



## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> ^^It seems that LU has been investing a lot more in new rolling stock than back then. Wasn't some early 1970's rolling stock still in use in this past decade?


Early 1960's rolling stock is alive and well and running on the Metropolitan Line!

There's still plenty of old stock around, although it's all been refurbished so certainly doesn't look its age:

Metropolitan - 1960
Victoria - 1967
Circle / Hammermith & City - 1969 (& 1977... 2 batches)
Bakerloo - 1972
Piccadilly - 1973


----------



## Apoc89

Well all the '60s stock is being replaced as we speak and should be gone in a few years, which would leave the Bakerloo's 1972 trains as the oldest.

Speaking of which, a video of the new S stock running on open track in a test run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlqWP1xuXCw

I also just noticed that it doesn't have the last two digits of its year of introduction in its name like older subsurface trains. Wouldn't that make it the S10 stock?


----------



## iampuking

^^The distinction is usually made between the legnth of the trains, for instance S7 or S8. I'd imagine there is no need for a distinction between the age of the individual S Stock trains because they're all coming in one batch.


----------



## Davodavo

Definitely good news that TFL is investing as much in stock as it is doing in stations.

I really like these new trains, do you know when will they be introduced in the Piccadilly Line?


----------



## Tubeman

Davodavo said:


> Definitely good news that TFL is investing as much in stock as it is doing in stations.
> 
> I really like these new trains, do you know when will they be introduced in the Piccadilly Line?


The Piccadilly upgrade is due to follow when the Northern upgrade is complete in 2012, new trains will go hand in hand with new signalling. That being said, with finances being what they are, it's difficult to predict when the upgrade will actually happen.


----------



## streetquark

Harrow + London said:


> Really? Redbridge doesn't look as ornate or symmetrical as those metros. Looks more like a regular LU station to me. Still, everyone's opinion's different


The overall design of the space is what is most Moscow-like, especially the large central corridor and wide columns. AFAIK LT took a tour of Moscow as one of their fact finding missions - as they did to NY and Paris - and this was the result.


----------



## coth

Looking on some other shots it seems there is no central hall. There is just a single row of columns at the center of station.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Redbridge_station_eastbound_look_west.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Redbridge_station_westbound_look_east.JPG



And I don't remember any stations in Moscow with "wide columns". As long as you didn't mixed up "wide columns" with pylons.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ It remind me more Berlin subway than Moscow metro.


----------



## dars-dm

coth said:


> And I don't remember any stations in Moscow with "wide columns". As long as you didn't mixed up "wide columns" with pylons.


I think he meant column-wall type station. Thus Redbridge is a shallow column-wall station
Maybe, it will be good to sort the LU stations on the construction types (like Moscow): column st., column-wall, two- or three-vaulted?


----------



## Tubeman

^^
People are getting Redbridge and Gants Hill mixed up; it's Gants Hill which is Moscow metro inspired


----------



## future.architect

I hope this doesnt go ahead hno:



> *Tories want London Underground trains to be driverless*
> 
> All trains on the London Underground should be driverless, according to the Conservative group on the London Assembly.
> 
> In a proposal to the mayor, the Tories claim it would save about £141m-a-year in wages and prevent strike action.
> 
> Transport for London (TfL) said staff on board trains reassure passengers, provide information and help with speedy alighting.
> 
> The Rail, Maritime and Transport union said the proposal would hit safety.
> 
> In a memo, seen by BBC London, to the London Mayor Boris Johnson, the London Assembly Conservatives say: "Driverless trains offer a safer, faster, more efficient level of service," the memo states.
> 
> "Such a system would end the strangle-hold militant unions have on the city's tube network and seriously curtail their ability to bring London to a standstill.
> 
> "The Victoria and Central lines already use technology which has reduced train drivers to door openers.
> 
> Continue reading the main story
> The Victoria and Central lines already use technology which has reduced train drivers to door openers
> Memo to the mayor
> 
> Do we even need drivers?
> "Current upgrade work will extend this to the Jubilee, Northern, Piccadilly, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City and Metropolitan Lines.
> 
> "With the recent decision to bring [maintenance company] Tube Lines under the control of Transport for London, this is the time to switch to a completely driverless train network."
> 
> It adds that a driverless network would solve the "poor state of industrial relations between London Underground management and train operators."
> 
> It said between 31 December 2005 and 23 December 2009, there were 20 days of strikes and between the 21 April 2005 and 23 December 2009, there were 34 strike ballots involving the RMT and other unions.
> 
> But Bob Crow, general Secretary of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union - the biggest union on the Underground - said: "It is badly thought out, safety has not been thought out.
> 
> Continue reading the main story
> We are taking it very seriously and it will be resisted
> RMT's Bob Crow
> "What will happen in a terrorist attack, a derailment or a massive signal failure, is you could have 600 or 700 people trapped down the Tube with no driver - there would be utmost panic.
> 
> "I don't think the travelling public will put up with that.
> 
> "Under normal circumstances I would be tempted to dismiss this leaked report as some kind of a joke, cooked up by anti-union fantasists, but in the current climate of cuts and attacks on public services we are taking it very seriously and it will be resisted.
> 
> "It may well be that some junior politician is simply flying a kite to make a name for themselves, but RMT will not sit back and allow this lethal and unworkable idea to gain any traction whatsoever."
> 
> A TfL spokesman said: "The Victoria and Central line trains are the only ones currently in operation on the Tube network that are automatically operated, however on these lines a train operator is in the cab.
> 
> "Having a member of London Underground staff on a train helps give reassurance to passengers, ensures prompt opening and closing of doors, speedy boarding and alighting of passengers and departure of the train."
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10332333.stm


----------



## NCT

The more I read that article the more it sounds like the Tories are idealogically anti-workers rather than just wanting to save on costs.


----------



## iampuking

dars-dm said:


> I think he meant column-wall type station. Thus Redbridge is a shallow column-wall station
> Maybe, it will be good to sort the LU stations on the construction types (like Moscow): column st., column-wall, two- or three-vaulted?


It's hard to categorise LU stations as there are usually several central halls rather than one for each set of platforms. And then the oldest deep level stations have no central halls whatsoever. Sub-surface stations are complex and inconsistent too, it'd be hard to categorise Tower Hill or Baker Street for example.


----------



## Pansori

"It may well be that some junior politician is simply flying a kite to make a name for themselves, but RMT will not sit back and allow this lethal and unworkable idea to gain any traction whatsoever." 

That reminds me of this (from Wikipedia about _luddites_):

"British textile artisans in the nineteenth century who protested – often by destroying mechanized looms – against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution, which they felt was leaving them without work and changing their way of life."

Back to the old good days? 

Is there really no way of making LU trains driverless? How does it work in, say, Singapore? Do they have train operators onboard as well?


----------



## deasine

Well automation brings definitely a lot of benefits. Train automation allows very frequent headways, if needed. Depending on the signaling system used, trains can be operated at a designed headway of every 90 seconds and can stop within meters of the train ahead. But there should be an operator who can take charge if anything happens to a train is definitely. There are many other benefits, and capital cost is one of them, but I wouldn't use it as a big selling point, especially when it comes to the media. And while you can technically remove operators on trains, there has to be staff to be able to run the trains if anything happens.

As for Singapore, the Circle line and North East Line are fully automated without operators from what I know. I believe the MTR in Hong Kong is also part-way automated in some form or another, aside from the Disneyland Resort Line, which is fully automated.


----------



## coth

For large and busy systems it brings more disadvantages than benefits. How do you suppose to close doors in peak hours and who will operate the situation during incidents?

edit: didn't read further of first sentence.
90 seconds can be reached without the bot. 
and that's i was talking about. so, you still have to pay for staff. you have one driver per train, so nothing will change.


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## Apoc89

Yeah, I'm all for automatic operation but only if there's a human there to take charge at any moment, like on the DLR(and as the article mentioned, the LU's own Central/Victoria lines).


----------



## iampuking

It's ridiculous to compare LU lines to new systems like Singapore. LU for instance, has small narrow tunnels where there is no emergency walkway. If there is an emergency, the passengers most likely won't know what to do, and if they do work out that they have to walk down the train to the end and then walk along the tracks how will they know if the traction current is on or off? What about in a situation like the bombings? LU also has very cramped an overcrowded stations without PEDs meaning passengers are sometimes only inches away from trains arriving and departing, there needs to be an operator to brake if someone has fallen, there was a death on DLR recently because of this. There are numerous more reasons... 

This is just a stupid Tory idea that is just to diminish union power, obviously made up by people that know nothing about the system. I'd imagine the cost of installing PEDs of some sort at every single station (as on the automated lines of the Paris Metro) would far outweigh the cost of a few strikes.


----------



## deasine

coth said:


> For large and busy systems it brings more disadvantages than benefits. How do you suppose to close doors in peak hours and who will operate the situation during incidents?
> 
> edit: didn't read further of first sentence.
> 90 seconds can be reached without the bot.
> and that's i was talking about. so, you still have to pay for staff. you have one driver per train, so nothing will change.


Just out of curiosity, which manual systems in the world have trains arriving at a sustained frequency every 90 seconds. It is also possible to run trains at a higher frequency of every 60 seconds. Those that are these are predominantly semi-automated in some form of another or have a much newer track signaling system. 

I disagree with the fact that the Tories are doing this to diminish union power because that's not what automation should be for. 



iampuking said:


> It's ridiculous to compare LU lines to new systems like Singapore. LU for instance, has small narrow tunnels where there is no emergency walkway. If there is an emergency, the passengers most likely won't know what to do, and if they do work out that they have to walk down the train to the end and then walk along the tracks how will they know if the traction current is on or off? What about in a situation like the bombings? LU also has very cramped an overcrowded stations without PEDs meaning passengers are sometimes only inches away from trains arriving and departing, there needs to be an operator to brake if someone has fallen, there was a death on DLR recently because of this. There are numerous more reasons...


Just out of curiosity, what are the safety features found at DLR stations and how does the emergency brakes on trains respond if there is something on the track?


----------



## coth

Moscow Metro (bots/autopilot were removed in 1970's), Kiev Metro - sustained frequency every 90 seconds on over 99,98%. Shorter frequencies is hardly possible with 160m long trains. And nothing will help. Because it all comes to stupid passengers who thinks it is the last train and rushing into it by holding doors.


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## Acemcbuller

> I disagree with the fact that the Tories are doing this to diminish union power because that's not what automation should be for.


I'm Not taking a view either way but since when did sensible motivations uncoloured by dogma matter to politicans?
I haven't seen anything that shows they have even considered how much it would cost and how long it would take to achieve.


----------



## lightrail

Pansori said:


> "It may well be that some junior politician is simply flying a kite to make a name for themselves, but RMT will not sit back and allow this lethal and unworkable idea to gain any traction whatsoever."
> 
> That reminds me of this (from Wikipedia about _liddites_):
> 
> "British textile artisans in the nineteenth century who protested – often by destroying mechanized looms – against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution, which they felt was leaving them without work and changing their way of life."
> 
> Back to the old good days?
> 
> Is there really no way of making LU trains driverless? How does it work in, say, Singapore? Do they have train operators onboard as well?


Vancouver skytrain is fully automated. We have three lines. Two are linear induction powered and the third is standard third-rail. All three use the same automatic train control system. This is a moving block system and allowed headways of 45 seconds - though in service the normal headway is 108 seconds.

The trains on the oldest line have been running for 25 years and there has never been a accident caused by the automated system. There was a minor derailment last month caused by something falling off a train and affecting the following train - no injuries.

Trains are controlled by computer from a central location. Trains can be added or short-turned by the press of button to deal with spikes in crowds, or to recover from a delay.

Advantages: no dwell time required, trains can depart within seconds of arriving at a terminus, easy to add trains, no need to find drivers to increase service at short notice, trains can run all night if needed (we run a couple of trains all night when we have heavy snow or ice to keep the guideways clear for the next morning), service is consistent with all trains accelerating and decelerating exactly the same.

There are no train captains or staff on the trains. Staff at stations and roving inspectors and transit police. 

Never been an issue of safety - trains run in tunnels and on elevated guideways - nobody feels unsafe because there isn't a driver on board.

Track intrusion systems are in place - pressure or infrared, and if these detect something, it shuts that section down and stops the trains. We've had idiots walking on the guideways, but the system stopped the trains and allowed the police to arrest the idiot - so nobody got killed. Same if somebody jumps on the track in front of a train - the system will shut down and stop the trains so reduces suicide attempts, though still possible if you jump close enough to the train.

There is a line clear system in place with the first train carrying an attendant who is able to stop the train if there is something on the guideway that got missed overnight. And the trains can be driven manually if needed.

It is the way London Underground should go - the Tories are right.

Because we started with automated trains, we don't have to fight unions on loss of drivers.


----------



## deasine

lightrail said:


> Track intrusion systems are in place - pressure or infrared, and if these detect something, it shuts that section down and stops the trains. We've had idiots walking on the guideways, but the system stopped the trains and allowed the police to arrest the idiot - so nobody got killed. Same if somebody jumps on the track in front of a train - the system will shut down and stop the trains so reduces suicide attempts, though still possible if you jump close enough to the train.


That's the thing here: if iampuking said there was an incident on the DLR with regards to people falling on the track, are there any safety features and track intrusion systems? I should ask Tubeman in the other thread.

Being from Vancouver as well, I understand how automation works. But as iampuking said, if there aren't emergency walkways in tunnels where a line is automated, where a train cannot be exited safely or accessed easily during an emergency, it could be a potential problem. 

Going back on lightrail's point however, when a system is automated, trains can be driven manually from the operations centre.


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## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> It's ridiculous to compare LU lines to new systems like Singapore. LU for instance, has small narrow tunnels where there is no emergency walkway. If there is an emergency, the passengers most likely won't know what to do, and if they do work out that they have to walk down the train to the end and then walk along the tracks how will they know if the traction current is on or off? What about in a situation like the bombings? LU also has very cramped an overcrowded stations without PEDs meaning passengers are sometimes only inches away from trains arriving and departing, there needs to be an operator to brake if someone has fallen, there was a death on DLR recently because of this. There are numerous more reasons...
> 
> This is just a stupid Tory idea that is just to diminish union power, obviously made up by people that know nothing about the system. I'd imagine the cost of installing PEDs of some sort at every single station (as on the automated lines of the Paris Metro) would far outweigh the cost of a few strikes.


It's not as stupid an idea as you might think.

It is perfectly possible to have unstaffed trains on LU, and to do so safely.

You throw in a lot of 'what ifs', but if you look at it rationally, on an ATO line like the Victoria the 'driver' only performs a function better performed by a human for about 5 seconds in every 3 minutes. That is, the act of closing the doors. The other 2 minutes 55 seconds of departing, accelerating, braking, stopping, and doors opening don't realistically require any human input at all... Although the 'driver' does press buttons to open doors and start the train, this could be easily automated too. Is it really cost effective to have a human sat on every single one of our peak service of 425 trains on £42,000 p.a.?

I honestly believe that once ATO is universal on LU lines (maybe 20 years time), with some technological developments we can have unstaffed trains. I'd envisage a control centre with remote operators responsible for several trains at once (for argument's sake, 5). They would have CCTV views of platforms, in each car, and forward facing from the train front. Between stations, the forward view would be shown, then as a train approaches a platform, the view would switch to that platform for assurance that the track and platform edge are clear and remain on the platform as the train stops, doors open, and passengers alight and board. After a predetermined timetabled dwell time, the doors would automatically close and the train depart unless the remote operator over-rides (e.g. due to heavy loading), and perhaps there could be an alarm if any doors are obstructed to alert the remote operator to investigate why.

The remote operator would be able to make public address announcements in the trains under their control, either routine service update announcements to all, or an announcement into a specific car on a specific train to admonish kids dicking about or respond to a passenger alarm / passenger query.

So, emergencies... Well if someone purposefully jumps under a train at the last second, no amount of technology is going to stop that without PEDs. In the event that someone has accidentally fallen onto the track, this would be spotted by the remote operator and the train stopped in time (if this is possible), or there could be some form of infra-red detection system along platforms as described before. There are emergency stop plungers on ATO line platforms too, as a further safeguard.

Train breaks down between stations... On modern stocks the driver is pretty much useless. On older stocks which have air pipes with cocks and simple electric circuits with chunky fuses which blow and can be replaced, the driver is also a train technician and can rectify almost all train defects and get the train moving again. When a 92, 95 or 96 (and now 2009 or S) stock breaks down, it's generally fucked and the driver can do very little but wait for a train maintainer to appear and change a circuit board, so driver or not there's no difference really. All that a driver on a modern stock has is access to the on-board computerised train monitoring system which flags up what the defect is and where it is, this information could simply be transmitted to the remote operator instead. Indeed, the remote operator could basically go through all the checks a driver on board could go through remotely and even attempt to rectify remotely if possible... The days of a driver running up and down a defective train lifting up seats and cutting bits of equipment in and out will soon be over.

If a train does become irreparably defective between stations, on a modern stock all the driver does is make reassuring announcements and waits for assistance. The PAs can be made remotely by the remote operator. Everything that follows (usually the train behind being detrained and sent forward with a Train maintainer to assist, 'pushing out' if necessary), it doesn't really make any difference whether there is a driver on the stricken train or not. 

Detraining between stations is always the absolute last resort, the train must literally be totally immobile (including being pushed or pulled by another train) before this is considered. For this reason I think emergency walkways are a little bit of a moot point: they should very very rarely be necessary. Whenever a train is detrained in the tunnel even now, nothing can happen until assisting staff from the station ahead have walked back to the train (drivers cannot perform this function alone) to count customers off the train and back on the platform, standing by hazards and obstacles, etc. On 7/7 no trains were detrained until station staff reached them, so what would be so different without a driver on board? As I said, the remote operator continues to make reassuring PAs, can pass instructions, interact with passengers via 2-way communications (like modern passenger alarms), and so forth.

In terms of cost-benefit I think there is a very strong argument for remote operation, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it's been introduced on at least a couple of lines by the time I retire from LU.


----------



## deasine

iampuking said:


> LU also has very cramped an overcrowded stations without PEDs meaning passengers are sometimes only inches away from trains arriving and departing, there needs to be an operator to brake if someone has fallen, there was a death on DLR recently because of this. There are numerous more reasons...
> 
> I'd imagine the cost of installing PEDs of some sort at every single station (as on the automated lines of the Paris Metro) would far outweigh the cost of a few strikes.


Just going back to this point, since Tubeman answered my question earlier, the DLR does not have any track intrusion systems installed at stations.

Lightrail briefly described how it worked earlier, but here's a picture I had to dig up from my albums.










In Vancouver on the newer lines, looking towards the end of the platform, there are two main components of the platform intrusion system. Laser beams are installed on the trackbed and on the platform edge (as per photo at the end where there are boxes sticking out on a pole). As one crosses the laser beam on the platform edge, there will be an automatic warning message and a notification will be sent directly to the operations centre, which will have CCTV recording of the station. If someone or something falls in the track, crossing the platform lasers, an alarm rings and station attendants are generally dispatched to the station to check on things and give the clear ahead signal to run the trains back. On the occasion that someone does fall onto the trackbed as the train is entering the station, emergency brakes on-board trains are immediately activated and trains can make a full stop within two seconds, depending on the speed as it approaches the platform. Notice though, if there is something on the trackbed but doesn't cross the platform laser component, such as birds for instance, trains won't stop but the operations centre is notified. But as Tubeman mentioned, if one wants to suicide, they will find their ways.

The problem with this kind of system is when there is snow. If stations are constructed in a way where snow cannot enter the trackbed on an elevated stations, it's not too big of a problem. But if they aren't, then the intrusion systems must be turned off and station attendants must be present at the platforms themselves. Depending on the amount of snow, which doesn't happen in Vancouver often anyway, there are some instances where the trains are operated manually.

Either way though, systems need to be modernized in order to keep a system running smoothly. This will probably mean new signal systems or major improvements to old ones. So automation could be implemented slowly, replacing the aging infrastructure.


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> It's not as stupid an idea as you might think.
> 
> It is perfectly possible to have unstaffed trains on LU, and to do so safely.
> 
> You throw in a lot of 'what ifs', but if you look at it rationally, on an ATO line like the Victoria the 'driver' only performs a function better performed by a human for about 5 seconds in every 3 minutes. That is, the act of closing the doors. The other 2 minutes 55 seconds of departing, accelerating, braking, stopping, and doors opening don't realistically require any human input at all... Although the 'driver' does press buttons to open doors and start the train, this could be easily automated too. Is it really cost effective to have a human sat on every single one of our peak service of 425 trains on £42,000 p.a.?
> 
> I honestly believe that once ATO is universal on LU lines (maybe 20 years time), with some technological developments we can have unstaffed trains. I'd envisage a control centre with remote operators responsible for several trains at once (for argument's sake, 5). They would have CCTV views of platforms, in each car, and forward facing from the train front. Between stations, the forward view would be shown, then as a train approaches a platform, the view would switch to that platform for assurance that the track and platform edge are clear and remain on the platform as the train stops, doors open, and passengers alight and board. After a predetermined timetabled dwell time, the doors would automatically close and the train depart unless the remote operator over-rides (e.g. due to heavy loading), and perhaps there could be an alarm if any doors are obstructed to alert the remote operator to investigate why.
> 
> The remote operator would be able to make public address announcements in the trains under their control, either routine service update announcements to all, or an announcement into a specific car on a specific train to admonish kids dicking about or respond to a passenger alarm / passenger query.
> 
> So, emergencies... Well if someone purposefully jumps under a train at the last second, no amount of technology is going to stop that without PEDs. In the event that someone has accidentally fallen onto the track, this would be spotted by the remote operator and the train stopped in time (if this is possible), or there could be some form of infra-red detection system along platforms as described before. There are emergency stop plungers on ATO line platforms too, as a further safeguard.
> 
> Train breaks down between stations... On modern stocks the driver is pretty much useless. On older stocks which have air pipes with cocks and simple electric circuits with chunky fuses which blow and can be replaced, the driver is also a train technician and can rectify almost all train defects and get the train moving again. When a 92, 95 or 96 (and now 2009 or S) stock breaks down, it's generally fucked and the driver can do very little but wait for a train maintainer to appear and change a circuit board, so driver or not there's no difference really. All that a driver on a modern stock has is access to the on-board computerised train monitoring system which flags up what the defect is and where it is, this information could simply be transmitted to the remote operator instead. Indeed, the remote operator could basically go through all the checks a driver on board could go through remotely and even attempt to rectify remotely if possible... The days of a driver running up and down a defective train lifting up seats and cutting bits of equipment in and out will soon be over.
> 
> If a train does become irreparably defective between stations, on a modern stock all the driver does is make reassuring announcements and waits for assistance. The PAs can be made remotely by the remote operator. Everything that follows (usually the train behind being detrained and sent forward with a Train maintainer to assist, 'pushing out' if necessary), it doesn't really make any difference whether there is a driver on the stricken train or not.
> 
> Detraining between stations is always the absolute last resort, the train must literally be totally immobile (including being pushed or pulled by another train) before this is considered. For this reason I think emergency walkways are a little bit of a moot point: they should very very rarely be necessary. Whenever a train is detrained in the tunnel even now, nothing can happen until assisting staff from the station ahead have walked back to the train (drivers cannot perform this function alone) to count customers off the train and back on the platform, standing by hazards and obstacles, etc. On 7/7 no trains were detrained until station staff reached them, so what would be so different without a driver on board? As I said, the remote operator continues to make reassuring PAs, can pass instructions, interact with passengers via 2-way communications (like modern passenger alarms), and so forth.
> 
> In terms of cost-benefit I think there is a very strong argument for remote operation, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if it's been introduced on at least a couple of lines by the time I retire from LU.


Wahey, never expected such an essay. It all depends on whether the money of installing all of this equipment to display CCTV views from a central control centre and to employ all the people to manage the trains from there is cheaper than the current setup. Also this would ever rival the safety provided by a human on the train.

AFAIK, the tories don't plan on going through the trouble you have listed to make LU driverless but instead want a DLR style solution. Except without the passenger assistant.


----------



## allurban

*Tramlink?*

I don't know if it is just me, but I cannot recall any recent photo postings or discussion of the tramlink service.

Anything interesting going on with that service? Id like to take a ride when I am in the UK in August.

Cheers, m


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## PortoNuts

allurban said:


> I don't know if it is just me, but I cannot recall any recent photo postings or discussion of the tramlink service.
> 
> Anything interesting going on with that service? Id like to take a ride when I am in the UK in August.
> 
> Cheers, m


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlink


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## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> Wahey, never expected such an essay. It all depends on whether the money of installing all of this equipment to display CCTV views from a central control centre and to employ all the people to manage the trains from there is cheaper than the current setup. Also this would ever rival the safety provided by a human on the train.
> 
> AFAIK, the tories don't plan on going through the trouble you have listed to make LU driverless but instead want a DLR style solution. Except without the passenger assistant.


I decided to write a lot to explain my rationale, because I knew if I didn't you'd just start arguing with me 

(it clearly worked)

Remote Operation is being seriously considered by LU long term, regardless of what some Tories just said last week. It is part of our strategy.

Look at it rationally: to introduce it on the Victoria Line once the 2009 TS has been introduced, what investment is required?

- ATO - Check
- CCTV in each car - Check
- Complete CCTV coverage of each platform-train interface - Check
- Wireless communications system - Check
- Ability for control to patch into train-borne public address - Check
- 2-way Passenger alarm communication - Check
- Emergency stop plungers on every platform - Check

So it's basically all there... All that's missing is the capability to remotely give the 'start' and door open / close commands, and activate the emergency brake, and transmission of the CCTV images back to control... All this could be very easily achieved via the 'Connect' radio system with small modifications.

As soon as this is done, you can set up a chap in the control centre to oversee 5 trains simultaneously on £40k rather than paying 5 times that for 5 drivers. Pays for itself within months, I suspect.


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## iampuking

^^ So you don't at all agree with that the Tories only want the tube to become driverless to fulfil their ideological agenda to diminish union power?


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## allurban

PortoNuts said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlink


thanks for the information - very useful - but Id also like to see more photos and comments here.

Cheers, m


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## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

*New Tube seating fabric captures the spirit of London*










*London Underground (LU) revealed the winner of a public competition to design a brand new Tube seating fabric. A London-based company called WallaceSewell, famous for their patterned woven scarves, beat over 350 entries from around the world to win. *

Their bold design was chosen because it captured the spirit of London as well as meeting the judges' demanding technical brief. With around three-and-a-half million customers using the Tube every day, entrants were asked to create a fabric design that would be practical and contemporary. 

Innovative design is part of the Tube's identity and history. 

*Shades of blue and red*

The Tube seat fabric, also known as moquette, needed to be something that according to the brief, translated well into a woven material. 

Designers were told that it should not be too jazzy or complicated and that it should not have too large a repeat pattern - as this would help to economise on materials when cut to fit the seats. 

The winning design is based on shades of blue with red highlights. 

WallaceSewell's starting point was London landmarks which were turned into abstract primary shapes like circles, triangles and squares allowing customers to interpret the pattern as they wish. 

*Soft and comfortable*

As part of the TfL Investment Programme the fabric will be used on refurbished Central line trains from the middle of 2011 and on other new trains where possible. 

The colours and design reflect the iconic LU brand. 

LU is one of the few Metro operators which has not changed to plastic or metal seating. 

It is hoped that this high-quality moquette, which is soft and comfortable, will enhance customers' journeys. 

*Distinctive pattern*

Richard Parry, Strategy and Commercial Director for LU, said: 'We chose the WallaceSewell entry because it captures the spirit of London. 

'Quality design has always played a very important role at London Underground and this distinctive pattern reflects our corporate brand perfectly. 

'The standard was extremely high but this unusual seating fabric - which is practical, attractive and economical - met the very tight design brief on every level.'

The WallaceSewell two-woman team also created the moquette for the new London Overground trains, Croydon trams and the East London Transit.

Emma Sewell, WallaceSewell, said: 'It's a real honour to win this competition. 

*Rich design heritage*

'We can't wait to see our creation on Tube trains and see how passengers react to our design.'

Co-designer Harriet Wallace-Jones, WallaceSewell, said: 'We've always admired the world famous London Underground seating fabrics and colours. 

'Nothing beats the feeling that you are going to be part of the Tube's rich design heritage.'

The judges included Lynda Relph-Knight, editor for Design Week, Rachel Halliburton, deputy editor for Time Out magazine and Robert Elms, BBC London radio broadcaster. 

http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/textile-news/newsdetails.aspx?News_id=88876


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## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Tubeman

First S Stock will officially run in passenger service on Monday, with a preview run on Saturday

2009 Stock now up to 10/47 so more than 20% of the fleet (albeit with some very high-profile failures this week)


----------



## Davodavo




----------



## PortoNuts

^^What rolling stock is that?


----------



## Davodavo

PortoNuts said:


> ^^What rolling stock is that?


:dunno:

I'm more than sorry to say that I have no idea LOL.


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## PortoNuts

No problem . But it looks like the C Stock.


----------



## iampuking

^^ It's the 1973 Stock running on the Piccadilly line.


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Thanks for clarifying.


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## Davodavo

iampuking said:


> ^^ It's the 1973 Stock running on the Piccadilly line.





PortoNuts said:


> ^^Thanks for clarifying.


^^ +1, thank you iampuking


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## iampuking

The S Stock ran for the first time in passenger service on Saturday... here's my write up.

*New Sub-Surface lines Trains (London Underground S Stock)*

First Passenger Journey: 31st of July, 2010.

As the A Stock on the Metropolitan line is now 50 years old, new rolling stock is desperately needed. The capacity of the Metropolitan line (and to a lesser effect the rest of the Sub Surface network) is currently limited by old signalling and old trains with low performance (bad acceleration/decceleration). The trains are 8 cars long for the Metropolitan line, and 7 cars long for the rest of the SS network, they are known as S8 Stock and S7 Stock respectively. This means that on the Cicle and Hammersmith & City lines there will be an increase in capacity, as the existing stock is 6 cars long platforms at stations on the western side of the H&C/Circle lines will either be lengthened or selective door operation will be used. The seating layout also differs for the Metropolitan line trains, it will be half transverse and half longitudinal which suits the more commuter-rail-like nature of the line. The 7 car trains for the rest of the SS network will be all longitudinal. These trains are the first on the network to be fully walkthrough, and are also the first to have full air-conditioning. Air-conditioning is possible on the SS network as the tunnels were originally designed with several gaps located in cuttings which allowed the original steam-powered trains to gases. They will also feature 1.3m/s/s acceleration and have a top speed of 62mph/100km/h. The trains will enter service with manual operation on the existing signalling and eventually modern signalling will replace it, taking advantage of the train's increased performance. The total amount of trains will be 191, trains will enter service on the Metropolitan first, then the Circle/Hammersmith & City, and then the District. This is because the District has the most modern rolling stock, which has recently been refurbished.

*Current trains (London Underground A Stock)*

Exterior

AndrewHA ! at Flickr









Kurt Raschke at Flickr









Interior

stephenk1977 at Flickr









Video











*New trains (London Underground 'S8' Stock)*

Exterior

Justin Foulger at Flickr









londonstuff at Flickr









Interior

londonstuff at Flickr









londonstuff at Flickr









Video


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## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> The total amount of trains will be 133


That must just be the S7 figure... the total number of S Stock trains on order is 191.


----------



## iampuking

^^ Edited. Could you please add this to the first post?


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## PortoNuts

I like this trains as much and the London Overground trains. :cheers:


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## PortoNuts

S Stock interior.


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## scalatrava89

How many train buffs turned out? :lol: You all should of cheered when it pulled away at the end. SO what did you think of the new stock PortoNuts? The main benefit is obviously the internal space, and light aerie feel.


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## iampuking

New S Stock racing with the A Stock.


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## makita09

I have read complaints by certain rail enthusiasts on the web that the S-stock is a totally innappropriate replacement for the A-stock.

I do not believe this for a minute as everything that I have seen so far I agree with (eg half longitudinal seats, good acceleration/top speed), but what are the percieved problems? Or is it just typical nonsensical moaning?


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## Fatfield

makita09 said:


> I have read complaints by certain rail enthusiasts on the web that the S-stock is a totally innappropriate replacement for the A-stock.
> 
> I do not believe this for a minute as everything that I have seen so far I agree with (eg half longitudinal seats, good acceleration/top speed), but what are the percieved problems? Or is it just typical nonsensical moaning?


Its Britain. We like a good old moan.


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## sotonsi

scalatrava89 said:


> How many train buffs turned out? :lol: You all should of cheered when it pulled away at the end. SO what did you think of the new stock PortoNuts? The main benefit is obviously the internal space, and light aerie feel.


But, given A stock is the largest train running on British rails, interior space isn't an improvement, it's a carry on - you could argue that more standing space is a benefit, but the people of Northwood (and further out, but especially in the Northwood area) consider that a massive flaw, because it means less seats, so they will have to stand now. A Stock has a light aerie feel - it's only the newness of S stock on this that makes it better. I think those who commute on the Met line would have liked a new improved A stock (better seats, air con, perhaps 2+2 rather than 3+2, more speed, better accleration, etc). The big problem is that it's a stock designed for other lines - it's absolutely perfect for the District, and for the other two, it's rather good.


makita09 said:


> I have read complaints by certain rail enthusiasts on the web that the S-stock is a totally innappropriate replacement for the A-stock.
> 
> I do not believe this for a minute as everything that I have seen so far I agree with (eg half longitudinal seats, good acceleration/top speed), but what are the percieved problems? Or is it just typical nonsensical moaning?


The half longitudinal seats are the problem. Air con and the acceleration/top speed are great, as is replacing 50 year old trains. But to reduce the number of seats by the amount that they have, on the Met line where distances and travel times are long is a big mistake.

By all means, it's a good compromise stock for the SSLs, but the situation at Northwood (and other places, given longitutinal seats aren't as comfortable as transverse ones with they higher backs), where people who used to sit will now have to stand all the way in, isn't like the situation at Woodford (say), where the tube service, while having trains with less seats, provided a much better service than the NR one, so the pay off is bearable, and now (70 years later) no one knows better. With the move to S stock there's a slight increase in frequency and a slight decrease in travel time, but the people of Northwood and further out don't think it's worth it - the compromise removes A stock's bias towards them and the bonuses for them aren't good enough to make up for the backward step with the seats.

I can understand the arguments about the circle line bit needing the standing space, but whenever I've been on a Met train on the circle (which includes in the peaks), it's not crush loaded by a long shot, and there's enough room to stand with A stock.

The problem with S stock is that the Met line is used to better seating arrangements (though slightly worse standing arrangements) and Met line commuters disagree with the idea that there ought to be one stock for the varied SSLs.

They look brilliant trains for the District, H&C and Circle lines, but the compromise of the stock is just a bit too compromised for the Met line. It is indeed inappropriate for the line, especially given how A stock was fit for purpose. It's a line where you need big-wide trains to make the most of the tunnel size, where you need lots of seats, because the line is for commuting long distances, though also a decent amount of standing room (check out the big vestibule areas on A stock) due to the central London section. What has happened is that we now have narrower trains, and then less seats to make up the standing room (and now there's more than is necessary).

Completely irrelevant but, looking at the front, S stock is a bit ugly, aren't they?


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## iampuking

^^ The narrowness of the S Stock compared to the A Stock is countered by the fact that there is standing room between the carriages, and that it allows a much smaller gap between the train and the platform.

Although I agree that the reduction in seats is a shame, It also is countered. The S Stock is fully walkthrough, meaning people can walk down the train as far as they want to find a spare seat, currently the train is often crowded at one end and empty at the other, which is a waste. Secondly, I don't see how the Metropolitan's journeys are longer than other line's, the line is the one underground line to have fast and semi fast services, not forgetting the huge gap between Finchley Road and Baker Street...

And I disagree about the front, I think it's attractive, unusual and modern.


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## mtj73

iampuking said:


> ^^ The narrowness of the S Stock compared to the A Stock is countered by the fact that there is standing room between the carriages, and that it allows a much smaller gap between the train and the platform.
> 
> *Although I agree that the reduction in seats is a shame, It also is countered. The S Stock is fully walkthrough, meaning people can walk down the train as far as they want to find a spare seat, currently the train is often crowded at one end and empty at the other, which is a waste*. Secondly, I don't see how the Metropolitan's journeys are longer than other line's, the line is the one underground line to have fast and semi fast services, not forgetting the huge gap between Finchley Road and Baker Street...
> 
> And I disagree about the front, I think it's attractive, unusual and modern.


That's right, I don't understand why people always seem to overlook that fact. If the train is packed you would not of got a seat anyway, if it's not jam packed but all the seats and someone in another carrage stands up to get of at the next station it should be easy to grab it. 

I would not want to stand for 40 minutes into work every day either but do the outer services really fill from the first station? I would of thought they would fill closer to the city but I am willing to be corrected on that.


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## sotonsi

I had a big long post, but I'll just whittle it down to a few short-ish points


While a smaller train will fit better (and remember most people don't care too much about the gap - though obviously making it small for the few is a very good thing) in the centre, at places like Watford, etc, where the platform fits A stock pretty well (it's a tiny gap at Watford) the gap will be made bigger by the smaller stock. It's a non point to talk about gaps - in places it will be better, in others it'll be worse.
LU, with the A stock (designed for commuters from the outskirts) has made it exceptional (which you seem to despise, especially when it involves suburbia) - LU is now removing that and making it better. There would rightly be uproar if they decided to make new Central Line/Piccadilly stock work better for those in zones 4-6 at the expense of zone 1, this is the same thing - to make the trains suit the centre bit a bit more, but suit most of the line less. The problem isn't that S stock is bad, but that A stock was so well suited to the outer parts of the line, that anything that isn't as well suited is a backward step out there.
Any comparison to elsewhere on the tube network as far out must also have similar NR locations too - which have trains with lots of seats. Likewise there's no massive upgrade in service, like there was when things like Epping were tubified (direct trains deeper into Central London).
I agree with S stock, but I'm trying to put forward the reasons why people aren't happy, and why their complaints are somewhat valid - I do think they are making too much out of it, but they have been treated well by the tube for a while with A stock, and now they are going to be treated like Dagenham or Woodford - ie not as well. It is a backward step as far as they are concerned (they might not see the benefits at all, but for them the costs of having S stock, rather than a new special Met line train outweigh the benefits by a long way for the people out there - though it's not just them on the line!). The less good treatment of Dagenham and Woodford shouldn't mean that Northwood should be brought down - ideally the far ends of the District, Central, Piccadilly, etc would get trains that better suit them - it's the problem of the tube being metro and S-bahn at the same time. To say "tough, other people put up with it" is a bit like Ed Balls' schools policy which is pretty much that there should be no winners unless everyone can win, therefore we should all be losers.
The gap between Finchely Road and Baker Street has equivalents - Kings Cross to Caledonian Road and Highbury and Islington are about as far. The Central, Piccadilly and Victoria lines all have fast bits, even if there's no slow lines on some of them: Liverpool St - Stratford - see how many stops the District has going out to West Ham, Kings Cross - Seven Sisters, Earls Court - Acton Town. Are they equivalent - not quite, but still.
The front of S stock has a bit too much going on IMO - the lines aren't smooth, it's a bit too complex. I guess it's like the Multipla winning design awards - I remember seeing it for the first time in the Design Museum on a school trip - we saw the back first, and found it tolerable but then it rotated and their was a universal cry of disgust from the 10 or so of us looking at it - some of us couldn't even look at how ugly that double chin is, but then we hadn't had our taste generated by the design gurus. I'm sure I'll get used to it, like I did with the odd backs of cars, but I just find it ugly at the moment - not Multipla repulsive, but I'm not a fan.

To put it simply - S stock is adequate for the Met, but Met line customers are used to something better suited to the line's outer parts, being treated like they aren't on the tube, but not on BR either - best of both worlds. They are used to being treated differently from the rest of the Underground and are rightly upset (though they do somewhat have a false sense of entitlement) at their lose of this privilege. Is S stock the right thing to do - yes. Is it a kick in the teeth to the people of the Northwood area - yes.


mtj73 said:


> That's right, I don't understand why people always seem to overlook that fact. If the train is packed you would not of got a seat anyway, if it's not jam packed but all the seats and someone in another carrage stands up to get of at the next station it should be easy to grab it.


Surely those currently at the seat limit (Northwood/Pinner sort of area) will already move along the platform to go in at the emptiest carriages? Yes, with the walkways a few more might sit down, but it's still not all who try and board the train there.


> I would not want to stand for 40 minutes into work every day either but do the outer services really fill from the first station? I would of thought they would fill closer to the city but I am willing to be corrected on that.


They don't, which why the heckles are from Northwood and Pinner, quite a few stops down the line (5 or 6), that now get a seat, but with the reduction in seats, won't all get them, even with the walk-throughs.


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## PortoNuts

scalatrava89 said:


> How many train buffs turned out? :lol: You all should of cheered when it pulled away at the end. SO what did you think of the new stock PortoNuts? The main benefit is obviously the internal space, and light aerie feel.


I agree with you on both things. I really like, they remind me the East London Line trains of LO and I'm a fan of those as well. Good quality trains are essential for LU, they are the core of the network so to speak. I can handle crappy stations but not crappy trains. They are the ones who keep the system going. :cheers:


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## iampuking

sotonsi said:


> I had a big long post, but I'll just whittle it down to a few short-ish points
> 
> While a smaller train will fit better (and remember most people don't care too much about the gap - though obviously making it small for the few is a very good thing) in the centre, at places like Watford, etc, where the platform fits A stock pretty well (it's a tiny gap at Watford) the gap will be made bigger by the smaller stock. It's a non point to talk about gaps - in places it will be better, in others it'll be worse.


Here's Watford station, the gap looks smaller on the S Stock to me.












sotonsi said:


> LU, with the A stock (designed for commuters from the outskirts) has made it exceptional (which you seem to despise, especially when it involves suburbia) - LU is now removing that and making it better. There would rightly be uproar if they decided to make new Central Line/Piccadilly stock work better for those in zones 4-6 at the expense of zone 1, this is the same thing - to make the trains suit the centre bit a bit more, but suit most of the line less. The problem isn't that S stock is bad, but that A stock was so well suited to the outer parts of the line, that anything that isn't as well suited is a backward step out there.


There might be an uproar if the Piccadilly/Central had lots of seating in the first place, but AFAIK, they never have. That's why i'm unsympathetic as the S Stock still has more seats than most of the existing LU lines. 



sotonsi said:


> Any comparison to elsewhere on the tube network as far out must also have similar NR locations too - which have trains with lots of seats. Likewise there's no massive upgrade in service, like there was when things like Epping were tubified (direct trains deeper into Central London).


The Tube will always win as it goes direct into Central London... But I don't see why they should be compared as they are inherently completely different services.



sotonsi said:


> I agree with S stock, but I'm trying to put forward the reasons why people aren't happy, and why their complaints are somewhat valid - I do think they are making too much out of it, but they have been treated well by the tube for a while with A stock, and now they are going to be treated like Dagenham or Woodford - ie not as well. It is a backward step as far as they are concerned (they might not see the benefits at all, but for them the costs of having S stock, rather than a new special Met line train outweigh the benefits by a long way for the people out there - though it's not just them on the line!). The less good treatment of Dagenham and Woodford shouldn't mean that Northwood should be brought down - ideally the far ends of the District, Central, Piccadilly, etc would get trains that better suit them - it's the problem of the tube being metro and S-bahn at the same time. To say "tough, other people put up with it" is a bit like Ed Balls' schools policy which is pretty much that there should be no winners unless everyone can win, therefore we should all be losers.


I don't really agree with that analogy. How is the seating on the S Stock making everyone a loser? It's a case of priorities. The fewer seats allows more people to fit in during the peaks, shorter dwell times, which is where it matters. There's the people that can't physically fit on southbound Met trains at Wembley Park and Finchley Road probably will be able to now the S Stock is in service, versus the seated passengers who will now have to stand because of fewer seats.



sotonsi said:


> The gap between Finchely Road and Baker Street has equivalents - Kings Cross to Caledonian Road and Highbury and Islington are about as far. The Central, Piccadilly and Victoria lines all have fast bits, even if there's no slow lines on some of them: Liverpool St - Stratford - see how many stops the District has going out to West Ham, Kings Cross - Seven Sisters, Earls Court - Acton Town. Are they equivalent - not quite, but still.


True, but the Metropolitan still wins in this respect. Huge gaps between Moor Park - Harrow-on-the-Hill, Wembley Park - Finchley Road, etc etc. And not forgetting that there is the even faster Chiltern services, or the slower Jubilee services, you could even say the Bakerloo/Central/Piccadilly lines offer alternatives too. Met passengers are spoiled for choice.


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## sotonsi

iampuking said:


> There might be an uproar if the Piccadilly/Central had lots of seating in the first place, but AFAIK, they never have.


They did when they were BR branches (OK, not Cockfosters), but then they gained a better service when they switched (which doesn't happen with the Met). These commuters have my sympathy too - it comes from over-extending the tube lines with their small trains. Yes, it was the easiest way to deal with getting to those places, but as those villages grow bigger and the people did too, it's made the inner areas pay badly with overcrowding. However, of course, almost no one is old enough to know what it was once like on trains with proper seats - with Northwood the change has happened now, so they aren't used to it and they don't get the benefit of going through a central London tube (or further than Baker Street - Watford morning trains stop there). At Pinner, it doesn't make much difference that S stock has more seats than tube stocks, what matters is that five or ten people got seats under A stock, and none of them will now. 

The comparison with A stock is the only comparison needed to see if it is a reduction of quality of service - the answer is yes, when it comes to seats. The comparisons with elsewhere (and Eltham, Seven Kings, Twickenham, etc should be made as well as Woodford, Dagenham Heathway, etc) are only really relevant to see if they are now so short-changed by the S-stock that it was a mistake. No - it drops the Met line to somewhere between tube and NR, which is what it is (in LUL colours).


> That's why i'm unsympathetic as the S Stock still has more seats than most of the existing LU lines.


You are unsympathetic as you hate people having it good - as I said, lowest common denominator as you hate the idea of someone winning (especially if they are suburbanites).


> The Tube will always win as it goes direct into Central London... But I don't see why they should be compared as they are inherently completely different services.


What BR and the met shouldn't be compared, or Epping and the Met? Baker Street is further from Central London than pretty much every London terminus! OK, Watford trains (which have the Northwood problem which is what this about), and other peak trains do to the northern Circle, so they do get Central London - but my point is that they got them with A stock - the service on the outer parts of the Met is downgraded by the design of the new trains running on it. The inner part is improved though.

When Epping et all got downgraded to crappy longitudinal seating it got a huge upgrade in service - more penetration of the City for a start. Now the Met line is being downgraded to half-longitudinal seating, what are they getting - new trains, that go about as fast as the old ones used to, at a slightly better frequency. For those at the southern end of getting seats in the morning there's a huge retrograde step - just because every other tube line has it worse doesn't negate that. Should LUL be coddling the Metroland folks - no! Is there a valid complaint - yes!


> I don't really agree with that analogy. How is the seating on the S Stock making everyone a loser?


It's a drag down to the losers (when it comes to stock) policy that you are operating - you go "others have it worse" and instead of going "and they should have it better", you go "boo hoo for you - I'm going to ignore your complaint because I have a grudge against how well you have been, and will be, treated by LUL - in fact, you should have it much worse - even S stock is too good for you and your fast service with few stops in zones 2-4".


> It's a case of priorities.


Indeed, hence why I agree with S stock replacing A stock - some people are going to lose.


> The fewer seats allows more people to fit in during the peaks, shorter dwell times, which is where it matters. There's the people that can't physically fit on southbound Met trains at Wembley Park and Finchley Road probably will be able to now the S Stock is in service, versus the seated passengers who will now have to stand because of fewer seats.
> 
> True, but the Metropolitan still wins in this respect. Huge gaps between Moor Park - Harrow-on-the-Hill, Wembley Park - Finchley Road, etc etc. And not forgetting that there is the even faster Chiltern services, or the slower Jubilee services, you could even say the Bakerloo/Central/Piccadilly lines offer alternatives too. Met passengers are spoiled for choice.


Not from Northwood (though they can change at Wembley Park or Harrow, I guess). The fast trains to Moor Park are effectively LUL run main line commuter services (something which you deny - the BR-esque nature of the line, emphasised these past 50 years by A stock being designed for outer commuters). It's interesting how your argument relies on there being nothing special or different about the Met line then you keep pushing for this difference. Interesting that you talk about not being able to get on at Wembley Park or Finchely Road (surely quite a few get off here?) and then talk about how much choice there is for Met line customers - there's a choice for both these stations all the way in (that doesn't mean we shouldn't have it that they can't use the Met) - there isn't for the small area of the Met where S stock will have a genuine negative effect.

What I am saying is that there is *there is a real negative effect of A stock being replaced by S stock - on a small bit of the Met line and greatly outweighed by the benefits. The people of Northwood have a valid complaint - they are seriously dis-benefited by this change - they do not gain, they lose and lose a lot.* There's other issues that I have with your view of the world, iampuking, that prejudices you and blinds you to see my point, but I really have one point and one point alone that I'm trying to say and it is nice and bold for people to see.

Should S stock on the Met be scrapped for them? No - it's great for those from Harrow southwards and not the end of the world for Northwood people. S stock rectifies the decision in the late 50s to have A stock be mostly for the North of Harrow commuter - this is compromise between the inner and outer sections.

Should we try and work a way to improve the people of Northwood's lot? Perhaps - Crossrail's Aylesbury branch plan closed Moor Park's fast line platforms and replaced them with Northwood ones - far better catchment area for the fast line stop. It doesn't look easy, but also not very hard to do, and if LUL are clever they will just have it as an unfunded plan for years or something as a sort of sop for making the people of Northwood stand.


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## makita09

Interesting. I can see why they're disappointed, but I agree its a case of priorities. As someone who had to stand all the way commuting from Sevenoaks every day my sympathy is somewhat muted.



Fatfield said:


> Its Britain. We like a good old moan.


Indeed, I think its our most superior characteristic  Apart from thinking a cup of tea is the solution to everything.


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## kerouac1848

Sotonsi

I'm sorry, but you're exaggerting about the disadvantages of the the S stock.


> However, of course, almost no one is old enough to know what it was once like on trains with proper seats - with Northwood the change has happened now, so they aren't used to it and they don't get the benefit of going through a central London tube (or further than Baker Street - Watford morning trains stop there). At Pinner, it doesn't make much difference that S stock has more seats than tube stocks, what matters is that five or ten people got seats under A stock, and none of them will now.


You're forgetting one important point; the train starts at watford and is empty. Northwood is only the 4th stop and those there and before can monopolise seats. With over 300 seats and walkthrough carriages that won't be an issue for Northwood, never mind Watford. The people most likely to have less seats than before are those at Harrow-on-around and stops near (yes, there are sometimes seats available when a train rolls in). Most people in Watford don't use the met line station anyway (except those in West watford, which is less populated anyway) as it isn't in the town's centre and gets into London slower than fast services from Watford Junction (which is a major stop).



> Baker Street is further from Central London than pretty much every London terminus! OK, Watford trains (which have the Northwood problem which is what this about), and other peak trains do to the northern Circle, so they do get Central London - but my point is that they got them with A stock - the service on the outer parts of the Met is downgraded by the design of the new trains running on it. The inner part is improved though.


Wtf?! Baker st. is IN central London. If you mean the City, than Paddington is further and the interchange longer and more hassle (Ditto Victoria). Anyone who’s lived close to a met line station (like I have. Indeed I grew up using the line) would change at either Harrow-on-the-Hill or Finchley Rd for an Aldgate train ( around half the trains in peak-hours go through to Aldgate); to do so at baker st. is stupid. Similarly, they have cross platform interchange at Finchley for the Jubilee line, taking them to the West End and CW.



> Now the Met line is being downgraded to half-longitudinal seating, what are they getting - new trains, that go about as fast as the old ones used to, at a slightly better frequency. For those at the southern end of getting seats in the morning there's a huge retrograde step - just because every other tube line has it worse doesn't negate that.


The new trains have much faster acceleration and breakage, reducing total journey times. That is a huge improvement trust me and hardly a retrograde step. One thing I always hated about the met line was how slow the train would enter and leave the platform (at Wembley this is made more notable because you could compare it to the jubilee trains). Also note that this isn't just with regards to stations; trains stop frequently due to bunch ups caused by flat junctions in the central area. Finally, they'll undoubtedly be much smoother than the A stock, and bumpy rides can be an issue (around moor park and Wembley to Neasden especially). 



> What I am saying is that there is there is a real negative effect of A stock being replaced by S stock - on a small bit of the Met line and greatly outweighed by the benefits. The people of Northwood have a valid complaint - they are seriously dis-benefited by this change - they do not gain, they lose and lose a lot. There's other issues that I have with your view of the world, iampuking, that prejudices you and blinds you to see my point, but I really have one point and one point alone that I'm trying to say and it is nice and bold for people to see.


Bollocks. They still keep the advantage of having first priority of seats, together with trains which can start and stop much quicker, leading to reduced journey times and better frequency, as well as being more comfortable. The A Stocks layout meant journeys for people from Harrow southwards were poor; hot, crowded, awarked and essentially unacceptable. 

You're deliberatly playing down the benefits whilst bigging up disadvantages which when looked at properly are minor at best.


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## makita09

kerouac1848 said:


> You're forgetting one important point; the train starts at watford and is empty. Northwood is only the 4th stop and those there and before can monopolise seats. With over 300 seats and walkthrough carriages that won't be an issue for Northwood, never mind Watford. The people most likely to have less seats than before are those at Harrow-on-around and stops near (yes, there are sometimes seats available when a train rolls in). Most people in Watford don't use the met line station anyway (except those in West watford, which is less populated anyway) as it isn't in the town's centre and gets into London slower than fast services from Watford Junction (which is a major stop).


Of course this doesn't help in the evening, when no one has a geographically-provided advantage over the seats and everyone has equal chance of getting one. But that'll be at worst part of the journey, as from what you say loadings decrease significantly, and anyone standing will get a seat at some point if they are heading further out.


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## future.architect

This debate about seats is just like the one we are having in manchester. The old trams have 86 seats, the new ones have 52 + 8 perch seats. One of the actual reasons is tougher regulations, you need to have more space for pushchairs ect.

In manchester the old trams will be refurbished over the next 4/5 years and will have the seating layout changed to match the new ones.


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## allurban

Did something happen on the DLR yesterday at Island Gardens station?

My wife & I walked out the of the Thames footpath around 3:30 or 4pm to see 8 fire engines sitting in front of Island Gardens with red and white tape across the entrance.

By the time we got to the next station (Mudchute) we could see the LED signs saying that service was suspended in both directions and a number of police & ambulances were roaring past with lights on and sirens up.

By the time we got to the new South Quay station we saw a train operating so I guess things were back to normal.

Cheers, m

by the way, it's interesting that they moved South Quay station and dismantled the old station as well...can't say that I've ever seen a station dismantled before - and presumably they did it without disrupting the DLR service?


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## iampuking

I can't be bothered to reply to everyone's replies. I just want to say a few things.

Sotonsi, it's really cute that you remember my post history enough to know my dislike of the suburbs (funnily enough I dislike the new Arcade Fire album called The Suburbs when I liked all their others...) but i'm not a moron enough to be so biased that I can't see their viewpoint. If my views were so skewed then why do two other posters seem to agree with me? And it seems you agree with me too, the new S Stock benefits a greater percentage of people than it disbenefits. 

One point I'd like to add is that the new S Stock allows far greater capacity on the northern sections of the circle in the peaks, it seems such a waste to have these BR style trains with huge amounts of seating running in between high capacity C Stock trains... And I can assure you as a past user of the Met from Finchley Road, very few people get off and the trains are often too full to board.


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## Tubeman

allurban said:


> Did something happen on the DLR yesterday at Island Gardens station?
> 
> My wife & I walked out the of the Thames footpath around 3:30 or 4pm to see 8 fire engines sitting in front of Island Gardens with red and white tape across the entrance.
> 
> By the time we got to the next station (Mudchute) we could see the LED signs saying that service was suspended in both directions and a number of police & ambulances were roaring past with lights on and sirens up.
> 
> By the time we got to the new South Quay station we saw a train operating so I guess things were back to normal.
> 
> Cheers, m
> 
> by the way, it's interesting that they moved South Quay station and dismantled the old station as well...can't say that I've ever seen a station dismantled before - and presumably they did it without disrupting the DLR service?


Someone told me that Red & white Police tape = fatality, dunno if this is true

Dunno what the need for 8 fire engines would be though


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## PortoNuts

The A Stock now really seems kind of archaic next to the S Stock. :lol:



iampuking said:


> New S Stock racing with the A Stock.


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## mtj73

PortoNuts said:


> The A Stock now really seems kind of archaic next to the S Stock. :lol:


It is archaic, 50 years old. I take my hat off to the guys that built them and most importantly the guys that keep them running every day. 

By pure chance I happened to see an old steam train at Brisbane Central station yesterday, the tanoy proudly anounces that the engine was built in 1950 and the steel carridges in 1960s. A60 stock popped up in my head an had silent chuckle, other cities are use younger trains as heritage novelties than LU are using for main service.


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## poshbakerloo

I don't what the big deal is with the seats. Do people really travel Amersham-Aldgate!?
I'd imagine most change at Baker Street etc


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## sweek

People who really do travel those long distances will still find seats. I expect there will be seats available between Amersham/Chesham/Uxbridge and Harrow-on-the-Hill at least, with the standing spaces being used from Harrow southwards.
The frequency is going to be higher on the Uxbridge branch, too.


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## PortoNuts

mtj73 said:


> It is archaic, 50 years old. I take my hat off to the guys that built them and most importantly the guys that keep them running every day.


It's indeed astonishing how they managed to keep these trains running for so long. They must be rock solid quality as they were built 'back then'.


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## poshbakerloo

PortoNuts said:


> It's indeed astonishing how they managed to keep these trains running for so long. They must be rock solid quality as they were built 'back then'.


Yeah they where. They have been real refurbished. I see the HSTs running until their 50 aswell!


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## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> It's indeed astonishing how they managed to keep these trains running for so long. They must be rock solid quality as they were built 'back then'.


Provided the bodies and bogies are soundly manufactured, you can keep on replacing smaller parts indefinitely (or at least as long as you can still source them). Don't forget the LU 1938 Stock is *still* operating on the Isle of Wight, 72 years old!

The generation of trains that the A60 stock belongs to are very simple: all air pipes, simple circuits and chunky fuses. A lot of train equipment was able to be cannibalised when the very similar (mechanically) 1959 & 1962 stocks were withdrawn in the 1990's so there's plenty of spares still.

I'll mourn the passing of the A60, as they're the last of the 2-handed trains (separate 'master control' and brake handle), and the cabs are very similar to the 1959 stock trains I started off driving on the Northern Line (although far bigger of course!), so I find them quite evocative. The end of an era 

The one thing I won't miss is the horrific creaking and banging from the 'metalastic' suspension... The 1959 stock trains were equally bad in this regard. The suspension between the bogies and car bodies is made up of alternating layers of rubber and steel which can make some quite alarming noises as the car bodies rock from side to side, which when I was a Guard would result in accusing and sometimes frightened looks from passengers...


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## PortoNuts

The older trains are definitely too noisy, sometimes noises that would get one thinking if there was anything wrong.


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## iampuking

The A Stock is surprisingly quiet from the outside, more so than most modern stocks.


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## mtj73

iampuking said:


> The A Stock is surprisingly quiet from the outside, more so than most modern stocks.


Have you noticed the 'gearchange' noise that is so familiar with the GTO traction system has made bit of a return on the new Victoria line trains IBGT system, admittedly it is only 1 change of tone, nothing like the jubilee line's singing.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Paul Easton

^^ Many thanks for that video.

When I was a boy we lived in Ruislip and I went to school in Harrow, so the A-Stock - and the 1956/1959 Piccadilly trains - were part of my 'upbringing'. I also have some recollection of when the A-stock was first introduced replacing the older red trains (P-stock?).

They were great trains and, as has already been said above, they've done well for the past 50 years.


----------



## makita09

mtj73 said:


> Have you noticed the 'gearchange' noise that is so familiar with the GTO traction system has made bit of a return on the new Victoria line trains IBGT system, admittedly it is only 1 change of tone, nothing like the jubilee line's singing.


My favourite is the Hitachi re-tractioned Networkers, even better than before. Its such a mad sound I love it.


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> The A Stock is surprisingly quiet from the outside, more so than most modern stocks.


They're much quieter braking because they're the last stock to have pure friction brakes, every other stock has some form of Rheostatic or similar brake which is what makes the moaning noise.


----------



## PortoNuts

Paul Easton said:


> ^^ Many thanks for that video.


You're welcome. And from watching it I definitely don't think the front side of the trains is ugly at all. But not that it matters much...


----------



## poshbakerloo

I'm not that impressed with the 2009 TS. They are nice and have good acceleration but just as hot as the old trains, even tho they are meant to be cooler and, the roof seems to slope in more at the sides...the windows seem quite small aswell...

not been on the S stock yet!


----------



## Acemcbuller

poshbakerloo said:


> I'm not that impressed with the 2009 TS. They are nice and have good acceleration but just as hot as the old trains, even tho they are meant to be cooler and, the roof seems to slope in more at the sides...the windows seem quite small aswell...
> 
> not been on the S stock yet!


They are only supposed to be breezier not cooler.


----------



## poshbakerloo

Acemcbuller said:


> They are only supposed to be breezier not cooler.


No different from the old trains then, I never thought that they suffered from stagnant air when moving


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

*Finsbury Park Station - Piccadilly/Victoria Lines*









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4728552974/sizes/l/in/photostream/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## manrush

One thing I like about the S-stock is that its interior looks so inviting.

An additional question: when is the first three-car DLR going to start running?


----------



## PortoNuts

manrush said:


> An additional question: when is the first three-car DLR going to start running?


I think they are already running, at least from this picture taken in March.









http://www.flickr.com/photos/wirewiping/4440585212/sizes/o/


----------



## iampuking

^^They're only running on the Bank - Lewisham route. I believe they plan to utilise them on the Stratford - Lewisham route too.


----------



## PortoNuts

Yes, I googled it and it appears they are progressively running the three carriages journeys.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Tubeman

^^
Just missed one this morning... Am still yet to ride on one!


----------



## poshbakerloo

Tubeman said:


> ^^
> Just missed one this morning... Am still yet to ride on one!


I travelled on a new train twice in 1 day! and I wasnt even trying lol


----------



## Tubeman

To be fair I rarely use the Vic... decided to go via Vic and Bakerloo to work this morning because of the signal failure at Euston Square (I travel King's Cross to Edgware Road).


----------



## PortoNuts

You'll have your chance Tube! kay:


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

*London underground iPhone app gets Boris Bike update*










Boris riding about London on his bike has become a familiar sight on the TV news. In fact, his biking antics are now so famous, a new cycle rental scheme which has started up in the capital is known informally as Boris Bikes.

And now London Cycle Hire information has been made available on the official London Tube iPhone app.

Although you have to purchase the “Leisure Points of Interest” pack within the app to get the bike info, along with details of other leisure related pursuits around the city.

The app allows you to find the nearest cycle hire station from your GPS location, and it marks all the bike stations on Google Maps.

An augmented reality function also lets the user see the nearest bike hire point using the iPhone’s camera live view. However, this AR facility is only available to those running iOS4 (on a 3GS or iPhone 4).

Of course, the London Tube app lets the user plan his or her underground journeys too, so it’s a useful tool for getting about the city. In fact, about the only thing it doesn’t tell you is Boris’s location, and we should probably be thankful for that mercy.

http://www.techwatch.co.uk/2010/08/12/london-underground-iphone-app-gets-boris-bike-update/


----------



## iampuking

I've travelled on the 09TS three times. First time it was by chance at Oxford Circus, second and third time I missed a few trains and one eventually came. If you want to catch one you only really have to miss 4-5 trains in my experience.

The train feels much more spacious than other deep level trains, it also has a futuristic vibe, I think it's the white panelling that's everywhere.


----------



## PortoNuts

iampuking said:


> The train feels much more spacious than other deep level trains, it also has a futuristic vibe, I think it's the white panelling that's everywhere.


Agree. Even from the outside, I see some futuristic traces.


----------



## Tubeman

Just missed one again today... :laugh:


----------



## PortoNuts

These trains must sense you. It's their revenge! :lol:


----------



## Pansori

I rode on 2009 stock a few times over the last few weeks. I don't want to sound like an arse but I was utterly disappointed considering it's a completely new machine. It's virtually identical to the Central line trains (or Jubilee/Northern) with the same old terrible noise isolation and unbearable heat. Refurbished old units would have been identical when it comes to the ride comfort. I guess it's the limited size of the tunnels which won't let interpret much with new designs. I still wonder if there is really no way to design any deep-level trains which could have an AC? It's not exactly fun to travel in a claustrophobic space at +40C.

There is one advantage though. I think it actually does have more space because I don't have to bend so much when standing near the doors.


----------



## PortoNuts

The tunnels do have an influence over the rolling stock, that's not much to be done about that. But they can do something over the AC.


----------



## poshbakerloo

iampuking said:


> The train feels much more spacious than other deep level trains, it also has a futuristic vibe, I think it's the white panelling that's everywhere.


The acceleration and braking is a lot better, but I'm not to keen on much else. I think the windows are too small, and the doors seem to rattle a lot when moving. All the hype about the new ventilation system seems a bit odd as its not all that different from the old trains, still too hot, and due to the small tunnels this will never change...


----------



## PortoNuts

They are certainly not perfect but they're also certainly not worse than the previous ones.


----------



## Acemcbuller

PortoNuts said:


> But they can do something over the AC.


Like what? Read up on it. Its a very tricky problem.
The only hope seems to the idea of freezing liquid to form ice blocks under the seats while overground and then allowing it to melt when underground.
That and some possible cooling using ground water cooling is about it.


----------



## ajw373

Acemcbuller said:


> Like what? Read up on it. Its a very tricky problem.
> The only hope seems to the idea of freezing liquid to form ice blocks under the seats while overground and then allowing it to melt when underground.
> That and some possible cooling using ground water cooling is about it.


I have never understood why there are not ventilation shafts (other than the stations) on tube lines. I would imagine something as simple as that would allow heat to escape thus bringing temps down a little but.


----------



## Harrow + London

Stick a fan in each carriage

How far along are the new DLR stations from Canning Town to Stratford International?


----------



## Tubeman

Harrow + London said:


> Stick a fan in each carriage
> 
> How far along are the new DLR stations from Canning Town to Stratford International?


There are ceiling fans in Tube cars, but I never seem to be able to feel them working, only hear them. Certainly the breeze coming in from the communicating doors' windows is more powerful.

The Stratford International stations are on course for an Autumn opening. The only one I've seen in the flesh is Canning Town, but this was just conversion of the former Silverlink platforms, so already was complete. Dunno about the brand new stations like Abbey Road and Star Lane... If the platforms are fabricated off-site like those for Mitcham Eastfields, then conceivably they might not even have started yet.


----------



## Acemcbuller

ajw373 said:


> I have never understood why there are not ventilation shafts (other than the stations) on tube lines. I would imagine something as simple as that would allow heat to escape thus bringing temps down a little but.


IIRC have read/heard that the Victoria Line is actually the best line for ventilation shafts, having 17 already.

In addtion A TFL press release from 26 July 2010 says


> Work is progressing to cool the Victoria line, with the capacity of the fans at all of the main ventilation shafts serving the line being doubled. Four fans were completed last year and the second phase of the upgrade will be completed this summer.


 
Also as part of the Cooling The Tube programme a number of ventilation shafts on older lines that were sealed during the WWII (as precaution against bombs or gas) have been reopened in recent years.


----------



## PortoNuts

Tubeman said:


> There are ceiling fans in Tube cars, but I never seem to be able to feel them working, only hear them. Certainly the breeze coming in from the communicating doors' windows is more powerful.


The thing is, there are no communication doors with the new stock. It doesn't have to be AC but some kind of system that makes the carriages a bit cooler. LU has to acept the restrictions imposed by its age.


----------



## iampuking

Love the visible gradients on the Central line.


----------



## PortoNuts

The 1992 stock has an incredibly modern look for its time.


----------



## ajw373

PortoNuts said:


> The thing is, there are no communication doors with the new stock. It doesn't have to be AC but some kind of system that makes the carriages a bit cooler. LU has to acept the restrictions imposed by its age.


The only stock without doors is the new S stock which is fully articulated AND airconditioned. The rest have communication doors.


----------



## PortoNuts

Yes, that what I was saying.  But I prefer trains with no communication doors. It makes them more spacious or at least it feels less crowded.


----------



## the zohan

My favorite trains running on the underground are the 1995 and 1996 stock.
Comfortable seating, forced air cooling, clean and smart looking interiors and of course the ledgendary noise you get from the 1996 stock motors.
I suppose it's also the sheer number of times Iv'e used them compared to anything else on the underground that makes me like them so much.
Followed closely by the mighty A stock of course.


----------



## Davodavo

http://www.dlrlondon.co.uk/UpcomingWorksDetails.aspx?id=8184


----------



## Turbosnail

..


----------



## Turbosnail

..


----------



## Wilhem275

PortoNuts said:


> The 1992 stock has an incredibly modern look for its time.


I wonder why the new Stock has so small windows, compared to the 1992's.

Can anyone explain me?


----------



## Tubeman

Wilhem275 said:


> I wonder why the new Stock has so small windows, compared to the 1992's.
> 
> Can anyone explain me?


Customer feedback. Passengers didn't like the 'hall of mirrors' effect on their reflection when viewed in the opposite window.

It's pretty academic on the 2009 stock, as the entire Victoria line is underground (at least the bits the passengers see), so windows serve little purpose.


----------



## Tubeman

Davodavo said:


> http://www.dlrlondon.co.uk/UpcomingWorksDetails.aspx?id=8184


I guess this is too soon to be the Stratford International opening?

The date is still just given as 'Autumn'... which officially began today!


----------



## Wilhem275

Tubeman said:


> Customer feedback. Passengers didn't like the 'hall of mirrors' effect on their reflection when viewed in the opposite window.
> 
> It's pretty academic on the 2009 stock, as the entire Victoria line is underground (at least the bits the passengers see), so windows serve little purpose.


Ok, but I imagine the 2009's will also run on other lines, one day. Will people still like those small windows, in open air stretches?

Also, they give an "old era" effect to the train's image: the 1992's may appear even more modern than the last stock.
BTW, this is only my impression, and I've only seen videos of LU, so my opinion may be a little misleaded.

I've seen washing machines with wider openings


----------



## PortoNuts

the zohan said:


> My favorite trains running on the underground are the 1995 and 1996 stock.
> Comfortable seating, forced air cooling, clean and smart looking interiors and of course the ledgendary noise you get from the 1996 stock motors.
> I suppose it's also the sheer number of times Iv'e used them compared to anything else on the underground that makes me like them so much.
> Followed closely by the mighty A stock of course.


The 2009 stock didn't bring a lot of innovation in terms of external looks but I do finf its interior more pleasing than the previous rolling stock. Even though the 1995/96 stock is excellent.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## iampuking

Wilhem275 said:


> Ok, but I imagine the 2009's will also run on other lines, one day. Will people still like those small windows, in open air stretches?
> 
> Also, they give an "old era" effect to the train's image: the 1992's may appear even more modern than the last stock.
> BTW, this is only my impression, and I've only seen videos of LU, so my opinion may be a little misleaded.
> 
> I've seen washing machines with wider openings


The 2009 Stock will not run on any other lines, for three reasons.

1) It was built to take advantage of the slightly bigger loading gauge of the Victoria line and therefore won't fit on any other tube line.

2) Other lines have different needs, for instance Piccadilly line trains will probably be 6 'long' cars rather than 7 'short' cars (the 09TS cars are 'short').

3) Future replacements should take advantage of more recent technology, that's how it tends to work in London (for instance, why were the Jubilee/Northern stock replaced with the 95/96TS instead of just the 92TS?)


----------



## Wilhem275

Thanks, I didn't know about Victoria's wider gauge... well, I don't know a lot of things, about LU.

Sorry, I still have to reach London, fall in love with it, and then discovering more about its rail systems.
I have the precise feeling I will be completely fascinated by the town, unluckily I am still missing the opportunity to get there


----------



## TedStriker

^^

Wow, I can't imagine what it would feel like to come to London for the first time, and as an adult. 

If you like cities generally and urban transport systems, then yes, you will love London I'm sure. When you do come, get yourself a one-day or one-week travel card, and just go zipping around all over the place.


----------



## ajw373

Wilhem275 said:


> Ok, but I imagine the 2009's will also run on other lines, one day. Will people still like those small windows, in open air stretches?
> 
> Also, they give an "old era" effect to the train's image: the 1992's may appear even more modern than the last stock.
> BTW, this is only my impression, and I've only seen videos of LU, so my opinion may be a little misleaded.
> 
> I've seen washing machines with wider openings


Tube stock is designed for a specific line so doubt 2009 stock will be seen on other lines anytime soon or in the future.


----------



## Wilhem275

TedStriker said:


> ^^
> 
> Wow, I can't imagine what it would feel like to come to London for the first time, and as an adult.


I can't imagine, too 

Pretty strange, since my family had been there, many friends did, and I travel quite a lot within Europe. In the last 5 years I've been in Berlin at least once every summer.

I am both a big cities and a transport fan, and I truly go crazy when it comes to cities with a mixture of ancient and modern, and with lots of transport tricks and secrets hidden in history. London is just the centre of the world.

This year it will be Berlin again, for work (InnoTrans) and some good urban and transit cruising; then, next year, it will be London... and I know I'll never want to get back home


----------



## Davodavo

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/


----------



## Apoc89

TedStriker said:


> ^^
> 
> Wow, I can't imagine what it would feel like to come to London for the first time, and as an adult.


I've been to London once when I was almost too young to remember, but since then first time I visited the city was when I arrived 2 years ago. I've fell in love with it ever since.


----------



## PortoNuts

iampuking said:


> The 2009 Stock will not run on any other lines, for three reasons.
> 
> 1) It was built to take advantage of the slightly bigger loading gauge of the Victoria line and therefore won't fit on any other tube line.
> 
> 2) Other lines have different needs, for instance Piccadilly line trains will probably be 6 'long' cars rather than 7 'short' cars (the 09TS cars are 'short').
> 
> 3) Future replacements should take advantage of more recent technology, that's how it tends to work in London (for instance, why were the Jubilee/Northern stock replaced with the 95/96TS instead of just the 92TS?)


What's the line with the biggest demand for longer trains?


----------



## Davodavo




----------



## PortoNuts

Love the third photo. The perfect kind of modern station.


----------



## Davodavo

PortoNuts said:


> Love the third photo. The perfect kind of modern station.


^^ The third or the fourth?


----------



## iranair777

PortoNuts said:


>


thats my friends video :banana:


----------



## PortoNuts

Davodavo said:


> ^^ The third or the fourth?


Ohh you're right. The fourth. :cheers:


----------



## PortoNuts

iranair777 said:


> thats my friends video :banana:


It's really great quality, congratulate him/her.


----------



## Davodavo

PortoNuts said:


> Ohh you're right. The fourth. :cheers:


Right, I totally agree then :lol:
Cheers.


----------



## PortoNuts

Even though the Art Deco stations from the 1920s and 1930s are really my favourites, they're the most charistmatic in my opinion.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Davodavo

PortoNuts said:


> Even though the Art Deco stations from the 1920s and 1930s are really my favourites, they're the most charistmatic in my opinion.


^^ Could you upload a photo of one of them please? :?


----------



## PortoNuts

The ticket hall of Piccadilly Circus is a good example.


----------



## iampuking

Arnos Grove is the most widely known example.










In other news, a new platform on the Central line at Stratford opened a few days ago, I'll do a write up ASAP.


----------



## PortoNuts

Is that the platform that allows passengers to leave the trains on both sides to better manage the flow during rush hours?


----------



## sweek

PortoNuts said:


> Is that the platform that allows passengers to leave the trains on both sides to better manage the flow during rush hours?


Yeah, it's working really well as one side is convenient for certain lines, the other for other interchanges. So the crowd is spread and split up quite nicely.


----------



## PortoNuts

Thanks, that's what I thought. Looking forward for your input iampuking.


----------



## iampuking

Obviously with Stratford station being closest to the Olympic site (with the exception of the yet-to-be-opened Stratford Intl DLR) this will help passenger flow... You really need to see an overview of the station to understand how much more convenient the new platform is for passengers going to the DLR, Jubilee line and the exit.


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> In other news, a new platform on the Central line at Stratford opened a few days ago, I'll do a write up ASAP.


This is it, photo taken by my friend Simon Sadler:










Platform 3a, opened Sunday 5th September 2010


----------



## PortoNuts

*New Central Line - Stratford*














































http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/4958947807/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/4959543200/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/4959542674/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/4958949333/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/4959554830/sizes/l/in/photostream/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## IrishMan2010

Nice pics!


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

I like how they provide extra information in the announcements, like that North Greenwich is the station serving The O2.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Republica

tubeman what is a train with grafiti on it doing out there?

shocking!


----------



## iampuking

*New Central line platform at Stratford*

Opened: 5th of September, 2010.

This was built in order to relieve the current platform at Stratford, which is going to become especially crowded during the 2012 Olympics which will have Stratford as it's nearest major train station. Trains now arrive as normally and doors open on both sides, as opposed to only opening on the right before. This means that passengers using the cross-platform interchange from National Rail exclusively use the old platform as the interchanges to most other services is quicker from the new platform. As usual, the platform is fully accessible for the mobility impaired. No pics as I couldn't find any in the right format.


----------



## Tubeman

Republica said:


> tubeman what is a train with grafiti on it doing out there?
> 
> shocking!


Depends where it was stabled overnight; only Hammersmith Depot has the capability to remove graffiti (on the H&C / Circle lines). A train will run with graffiti unless it extends to the windows or is offensive.


----------



## Tubeman

iampuking said:


> *New Central line platform at Stratford*
> 
> Opened: 5th of September, 2010.
> 
> This was built in order to relieve the current platform at Stratford, which is going to become especially crowded during the 2012 Olympics which will have Stratford as it's nearest major train station. Trains now arrive as normally and doors open on both sides, as opposed to only opening on the right before. This means that passengers using the cross-platform interchange from National Rail exclusively use the old platform as the interchanges to most other services is quicker from the new platform. As usual, the platform is fully accessible for the mobility impaired. No pics as I couldn't find any in the right format.


Plenty on this page already!


----------



## PortoNuts

Tubeman said:


> Depends where it was stabled overnight; only Hammersmith Depot has the capability to remove graffiti (on the H&C / Circle lines). A train will run with graffiti unless it extends to the windows or is offensive.


That graffiti up there is nothing compared to what I've seen on the B Line of Rome Metro.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

A good report comparing the old stock with the new S Stock.


----------



## sotonsi

The look on her face when the brakes make that much noise! I hadn't expected S stock to be that noisy, but I guess the Jubilee makes a lot more noise.

Less comfortable seats isn't a forward step either - but heh, for most Met line commuters the design of S stock is a big backwards step that TfL only really get away with because A stock is so old and mechanically limited because of that.

I'll give the walk-through train and serving those who get on and off south of Harrow better. Air con is more of a problem on deep level lines, but is a nice bonus here. For the other SSLs, S stock is good, but it undoes all the great benefits of A Stock that make the Met different.


----------



## IrishMan2010

The London Underground is my favorite subway in the world, its a great service and has character.


----------



## PortoNuts

sotonsi said:


> The look on her face when the brakes make that much noise! I hadn't expected S stock to be that noisy, but I guess the Jubilee makes a lot more noise.
> 
> Less comfortable seats isn't a forward step either - but heh, for most Met line commuters the design of S stock is a big backwards step that TfL only really get away with because A stock is so old and mechanically limited because of that.
> 
> I'll give the walk-through train and serving those who get on and off south of Harrow better. Air con is more of a problem on deep level lines, but is a nice bonus here. For the other SSLs, S stock is good, but it undoes all the great benefits of A Stock that make the Met different.


I prefer this seating arrangement. The older one is too crowded and the trains being less airy, it's not really comfortable.


----------



## sotonsi

I was talking about the seats in general, not the layout - lower backs, thinner cushions, stuff like that.

And if you've been on A stock, they are plenty airy enough - I would imagine that S stock almost goes too far towards being open plan for many - A stock seats gave a degree of privacy from the rest of the carriage, but that's gone on S stock.

S stock has been designed for the young urbanite, not the slightly-older suburbanite that A stock is designed for. What might be good for those on here (who would fit in the former category more) is often a negative thing for most of those who use these trains every day.


----------



## PortoNuts

I suppose we just have to accept that there are no perfect solutions. Some like this new stock, some hate it and others simply don't care.


----------



## sweek

I used to take the Met every day... it was kind of nice and felt a bit like a journey back in time on the A Stock, but it really wasn't all that great. People complain about the loss of seats, but if you ever actually had to sit with 3 people on a 3-seater bench on the A-Stock I think you'll agree that it was a very uncomfortable layout. Luckily, the trains weren't all that busy unless you were travelling in the peaks.


----------



## PortoNuts

People can't expect 100% comfort in urban transport, it's made for short journeys, it's not a longhaul flight.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## coth

PortoNuts said:


> A good report comparing the old stock with the new S Stock.


Few years ago 81-74x.1 series in Moscow were highly criticized for very whistling brakes, like here at 1:30 - 1:35. So they had to replace them all.


----------



## PortoNuts

Noisy brakes is something I've noticed in several new rolling stock across the world. Don't know if it has something to do with their efficiency.


----------



## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> Noisy brakes is something I've noticed in several new rolling stock across the world. Don't know if it has something to do with their efficiency.


Yes, basically... It varies from stock to stock, but regenerative brakes (which generate electricity from braking and feeds this back into the power supply) are in vogue for obvious reasons.


----------



## IrishMan2010

S8 stock looks very well, seems to be really quiet.


----------



## PortoNuts

Tubeman said:


> Yes, basically... It varies from stock to stock, but regenerative brakes (which generate electricity from braking and feeds this back into the power supply) are in vogue for obvious reasons.


Thanks for explaining, didn't know they could save energy from the brakes.


----------



## scalatrava89

Anyone know what this station is called or where it is? Looks very interesting. 









Just been informed: Southwalk Tube Station. Looks very photogenic, need to pay it a visit next time I’m down.


----------



## PortoNuts

That's a piece of art. :drool:


----------



## scalatrava89

Rory McGrath’s Best of British Engineering. Transport Networks: “Rory travels by canal, rail and the underground, to celebrate the best of British networks and the engineering projects that keep the country running” On QUEST (channel 38) tonight at 21:00.


----------



## Fatfield

scalatrava89 said:


> Rory McGrath’s Best of British Engineering. Transport Networks: “Rory travels by canal, rail and the underground, to celebrate the best of British networks and the engineering projects that keep the country running” On QUEST (channel 38) tonight at 21:00.


Thanks for the heads-up. Its channel 154 on Sky if anyone else is interested.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## IrishMan2010

^^Nice station up there.


----------



## Pansori

Is the S8 stock already running? How many and what are the chances of catching one on the weekend?


----------



## sweek

Pansori said:


> Is the S8 stock already running? How many and what are the chances of catching one on the weekend?


There is one train that can run in service, and sometimes does. I think they do test runs on thursdays/fridays, but there's no way of knowing beforehand when it will run. I think it's the Watford branch that's pretty much ready for S-Stock, whereas the others still need some signal tweaking?


----------



## Tubeman

Yes as far as I'm aware it's Wembley Park - Watford only


----------



## coth

believe me - it won't be louder.


----------



## Pansori

Norfolkadam said:


> Most of the time it's nearly impossible to talk to the person next to you on the tube let alone have a conversation on the phone without bellowing.
> 
> The worst is probably the JLE between North Greenwich and Canada Water, it's so loud as to actually be deafening.


I'd say Victoria line is worse. I don't use it very often but when I do I get scared that it may derail because of vibration and noise which sounds extremely horrific.


----------



## PortoNuts

I believe most people don't make calls down there, it would be pretty useful for texting though.


----------



## Apoc89

Yeah, my main use for a mobile signal on the Underground would be to browse the internet via 3G. Silent and completely harmless.

Mobile phones have been turning from plain phones into miniature computers over the last few years, so the whole "Phones are bad because people will scream annoying conversations into them" idea really needs to go.

And like the others have said, plenty of other modes of transit(buses, main line trains, even the Tube itself outside the tunnels) have reliable phone reception and yet don't explode into the Phone Apocalypse like some people here seem to assume.


----------



## PortoNuts

I think articles just have to mention the other side of the argument. Like, mobile coverage is good but there might be disadvantages. They have to write about both sides to please everyone.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Davodavo

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/


----------



## Apoc89

Just my luck, the strike happens the day I arrive in the UK and have to cross London. >(

Thankfully there are enough alternatives that it isn't a huge problem, but it's an extra expense and headache after a long flight.


----------



## Tubeman

Apoc89 said:


> Just my luck, the strike happens the day I arrive in the UK and have to cross London. >(
> 
> Thankfully there are enough alternatives that it isn't a huge problem, but it's an extra expense and headache after a long flight.


Where from / to?


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Apoc89

Tubeman said:


> Where from / to?


Heathrow Terminal 4 to Liverpool Street.

Alternatively, Paddington to Liverpool Street if I decide to take the Heathrow Express.


----------



## the zohan

Mobile phones on the tube? I remember them rejecting a plan for that years ago because of "security issues" it was something about remote detinating an explosive device. 
I think it would be a good idea if your'e stuck in a tunnel and the train has stopped, then you can contact someone waiting for you so they dont worry about anything.
However I was recently subjected to an hours worth of listening to a woman shouting about a rather messy ending to her job down the phone on a train going up north which makes me glad LU dosent have a phone signal.


----------



## Pansori

the zohan said:


> Mobile phones on the tube? I remember them rejecting a plan for that years ago because of "security issues" it was something about remote detinating an explosive device.
> I think it would be a good idea if your'e stuck in a tunnel and the train has stopped, then you can contact someone waiting for you so they dont worry about anything.
> However I was recently subjected to an hours worth of listening to a woman shouting about a rather messy ending to her job down the phone on a train going up north which makes me glad LU dosent have a phone signal.


Tube trains also make loads of noise. Wat about withdrawing them all and walking on foot instead? Should make good sense to those wo are worried about noise generated by mobile phone users. :lol:


----------



## Tubeman

Apoc89 said:


> Heathrow Terminal 4 to Liverpool Street.
> 
> Alternatively, Paddington to Liverpool Street if I decide to take the Heathrow Express.


I strongly advise getting the HEX tomorrow.

After Paddington, you might be stuffed tube-wise. Worst case, queue for the 205 bus at Paddington. It starts there so you will get on one eventually, and it goes straight to Liverpool St. Paddington Tube was closed last time, may well be again. Last time, with what was running / open, I'd have advised walking to Marylebone (where I'll be tomorrow  ), then taking the Bakerloo to Embankment, changing onto the eastbound District, and getting off at whichever City station is open (Cannon St, Monument, Tower Hill) and walking to Liverpool St.

Get the HEX and check to see what's running / open when you get into Paddington.

...Roll on Crossrail!


----------



## Tubeman

the zohan said:


> Mobile phones on the tube? I remember them rejecting a plan for that years ago because of "security issues" it was something about remote detinating an explosive device.


That's rubbish. The Madrid bombs were detonated by mobiles, but it was the alarm clocks that were used as timers, and these do not need a signal to work so could be used underground currently.

There's enough people happy to die for the cause, as 7/7 showed, that arguably being able to use mobiles underground would have saved more lives than not.


----------



## signol

Tubeman said:


> I strongly advise getting the HEX tomorrow.


Don't forget the Connect train from Heathrow to Paddington. Costs about half the Express (£7.90 on Connect v £16.50/£18 on Express) and only takes an additional 10 minutes - especially as he is travelling from Terminal 4, so no transfer at T123.

signol


----------



## PortoNuts

delete


----------



## flierfy

Apoc89 said:


> Heathrow Terminal 4 to Liverpool Street.
> 
> Alternatively, Paddington to Liverpool Street if I decide to take the Heathrow Express.


There is the bus route 490 which takes you from Heathrow Terminal 4 to Feltham station. From Feltham via Waterloo and London Bridge to Cannon Street by train. The distance from Cannon St to Liverpool St is walkable if you don't have too much luggage.


----------



## PortoNuts

Pansori said:


> Tube trains also make loads of noise. Wat about withdrawing them all and walking on foot instead? Should make good sense to those wo are worried about noise generated by mobile phone users. :lol:


I believe most people avoid making phone calls on the Tube and public transportation in general. There are always noises and people but it's good to be able to text and access the Internet.


----------



## coth

Modern phones have good mics and speakers, so you won't have troubles with noise inside of train and outside when no moving train around.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Pansori

PortoNuts said:


> I believe most people avoid making phone calls on the Tube and public transportation in general. There are always noises and people but it's good to be able to text and access the Internet.


It depends more on people's mentality though. Knowing that I would need to shout in order to be heard I just wouldn't use the phone in the first place. But for some people it's not an issue and they scream as loud as they can . I live in SW and use SouthWest Trains and I hardly ever see anyone talking in the carriage when the train is full even if there are no strong noises which may obstruct calling. I still see plenty of poeple texting or browsing net. I can also take District line from Central London (and I do sometimes) but I avoid it simply because I won't be able to use my phone and browse SSC while on the way.


----------



## iampuking

^^ All I do on the tube is listen to music... Never understood those people that can listen to music and read at the same time, what's the point? And I never understand anyone that uses the internet on their phones, the picture is so ridiculously small it's futile.

Off topic, Holborn station really needs a direct interchange between the Central and Piccadilly lines. Currently passengers interchanging have to use the clogged hall at the base of the escalators from the entrance.


----------



## Pansori

iampuking said:


> ^^ All I do on the tube is listen to music... Never understood those people that can listen to music and read at the same time, what's the point? And I never understand anyone that uses the internet on their phones, the picture is so ridiculously small it's futile.


Not true. Most people these days use their phones for internet. The screens are now large enough and so is resolution to comfortably (well, kind of) access normal websites. Many websites, however, have tuned-down mobile versions. And yes, it is possible to read and listen to music at the same time and that's what I do every day. Of course, the reading will have to be non-complex i.e. something like main news of the day or weather i.e. what most people read on the train. I must say you sound like a very old-fashioned person.


----------



## coth

what phone you have, iampuking?


----------



## PortoNuts

This passenger filmed the journey between carriages.


----------



## Wilhem275

A few days ago I was at InnoTrans, in Berlin, and jumped in the S Stock.

If their intent was to demonstrate the presence of the AC system on the train, well, I may call it a full success. Still with some doors open, the only thing missing were a few penguins


----------



## PortoNuts

Train doors opening on both sides at Stratford.


----------



## PortoNuts

Manor House escalators









http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwoolf/4597017488/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/


----------



## Apoc89

Thanks for the London crossing tips everyone, and sorry for the late reply, was a bit busy moving into my new flat.

Unfortunately, I left before I got a chance to read your replies and just went into it blindly. I took the HEx to Paddington then a taxi to Liverpool Street. The Express wasn't bad actually, only slightly more crowded than in the few other times I've used it. The shared taxi(a normal one meant standing in line for an hour) I took to Liverpool Street though probably wasn't much faster or less cramped than a bus, and significantly more expensive. At least I made it though. :cheers:


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## iampuking

Pansori said:


> Not true. Most people these days use their phones for internet. The screens are now large enough and so is resolution to comfortably (well, kind of) access normal websites. Many websites, however, have tuned-down mobile versions. And yes, it is possible to read and listen to music at the same time and that's what I do every day. Of course, the reading will have to be non-complex i.e. something like main news of the day or weather i.e. what most people read on the train. I must say you sound like a very old-fashioned person.


Oh sorry if I broke the urban law of criticising mobile phones, I apologise.

Only the iPad seems big enough to show websites, something at least the size of an a4 piece of paper IMO is good enough. Music is an art form and listening to it in the background says a lot about the kind of music you like.


----------



## Pansori

iampuking said:


> Oh sorry if I broke the urban law of criticising mobile phones, I apologise.
> 
> Only the iPad seems big enough to show websites, something at least the size of an a4 piece of paper IMO is good enough. Music is an art form and listening to it in the background says a lot about the kind of music you like.


Of course it is not as good as a regular screen but still enough to actually read a website. Some screens are now as big as 4-5 inches which combined with 800x480 or similar large resolution make it possible to relatively comfortably browse any contemporary webpage including SSC which I do every day on a train even on my "small" 3.7 inch mobile display. Plus you have easy zooming options which help if the screen is really too smal in certain situations. I have tried a number of phones and 3.5 inches is about the minimum you need while 4 inches or more is plenty.

And what does this have to do with the music I like? But actually you may have a point here because I mainly listen to lounge and other types of electronic music which is typically played in funky hotels, bars or clubs as background music for their sophisticated visitors. Listening to that on a train while reading SSC is just about right too.


----------



## Apoc89

My HTC Hero's screen is large enough to view "normal" websites at a slower and clunkier, but still very acceptable standard. Mobile-based websites work completely fine, and there are countless apps that use the internet for some purpose or another.

Even if they aren't to your taste, it's difficult to deny the explosion of popularity in smartphones and mobile internet over the last few years, and so I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be introduced to the Underground other than cost.


----------



## Pansori

anyway, iampuking, to be more serious, I think we can establish that people DO need mobile reception in trains and tube and the main reason for that is ability to browse internet, text and check email if not make phonecalls. Absolute majority of those who own a contemporary smartphone would confirm that. 

Edit: before I even finished this post, Apoc89's post confirmed my point


----------



## Davodavo

PortoNuts said:


> Train doors opening on both sides at Stratford.


So, what's the point of doing that?


----------



## iampuking

Pansori said:


> anyway, iampuking, to be more serious, I think we can establish that people DO need mobile reception in trains and tube and the main reason for that is ability to browse internet, text and check email if not make phonecalls. Absolute majority of those who own a contemporary smartphone would confirm that.
> 
> Edit: before I even finished this post, Apoc89's post confirmed my point


Where did I state that I disagreed? Maybe you missed several cues in my original post that showed that I was making a *subjective opinion* rather than stating an *objective fact*. Maybe you hallucinated and saw several examples of me quoting scientific journals which clearly stated that Iphone sized screens were insufficient for tube usage. For that, I apologise.


----------



## Pansori

iampuking said:


> Maybe you hallucinated


The heat while riding Victoria line even in the 2009 stock may indeed cause hallucinations. My apologies for that.


----------



## sotonsi

Davodavo said:


> So, what's the point of doing that?


to allow access to the platforms either side?


----------



## sotonsi

The Underground has no bins - it got rid of it's last one when they re-painted the out-of-station bridge at Amersham a couple of years ago, having removed all the others because of the IRA threat.

That said, in recent years there's been a huge boom in rubbish bags hanging from hoops at stations - I find the 634 number believable, but astonishing given there was nothing not too long ago.


----------



## PortoNuts

634 bins does look like a small number for such a big network.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Pansori

PortoNuts said:


> 634 bins does look like a small number for such a big network.


That is indeed. I can't remember seeing any bins in LU. Maybe I have seen some plastic bags if I'm not confusing that with national rail stations (the latter do have bags in most stations I have used).


----------



## sotonsi

PortoNuts said:


> 634 bins does look like a small number for such a big network.


works out as a bit under 2 per platform - it not that small, but it can be bigger.


----------



## ajw373

Pansori said:


> That is indeed. I can't remember seeing any bins in LU. Maybe I have seen some plastic bags if I'm not confusing that with national rail stations (the latter do have bags in most stations I have used).


They are mostly on above ground stations.


----------



## PortoNuts

sotonsi said:


> works out as a bit under 2 per platform - it not that small, but it can be bigger.


It must be like the minimum acceptable. But a bigger number would surely be welcomed.


----------



## sotonsi

PortoNuts said:


> It must be like the minimum acceptable. But a bigger number would surely be welcomed.


No, for years we considered zero as acceptable.

And when I said "it can be bigger" I implied that more would be welcomed - I can't see why anyone would disagree.


----------



## PortoNuts

Well, that is past and now a few hundred are the 'acceptable'.


----------



## Davodavo

sotonsi said:


> works out as a bit under 2 per platform - it not that small, but it can be bigger.


I think that it is enough.
And more after having 0!


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Priyadarshan to shoot in London Tube*
> 
> *After directing Aakrosh, director Priyadarshan has developed a penchant for action thrillers. He is currently shooting in London for producer Ratan Jain’s Tez. While Ajay Devgn plays a sardonic villain who holds a speeding train to ransom, the film also features Boman Irani and Kangana Ranaut.*
> 
> Priyadarshan spent a week with the British rail department at their headquarters in London to study the train system. While most of the film is being shot in the Tube itself from London to Glasgow, the control room scenes will be shot in Mumbai next month.
> 
> “It was imperative to shoot in an actual train to give the film a realistic touch. It wasn’t easy to get permission,” says the director. Due to the subject of his film, Priyadarshan also faced problems in acquiring work permits for his crew. “Tez is not about terrorism. It’s about a headstrong man (Ajay Devgan) wanting to show his power over the establishment and hence, holding a moving train to ransom,” says Priyadarshan.
> 
> “The film is similar to Jan de Bont’s Speed,” he adds. Other films shot on the same subject are Junya Sato’s The Bullet Train (1975) and Tony Scot’s The Taking Of Pelham 123 (2009).
> 
> Boman Irani, who plays a Brit railway traffic supervisor in the film, had gone along with Priyadarshan to London for the recce. “I observed how the rail supervisors operate, especially the Brit lingo and jargon used in the profession. I will be seen on the microphone, processing information in the control room in Tez,” says Irani.


http://www.hindustantimes.com/Priyadarshan-to-shoot-in-London-Tube/Article1-613745.aspx


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *ABB to supply switchgear to London Underground*
> 
> Power and automation technology group ABB has won a competitive contract from EDF Energy Infrastructure Services to supply medium-voltage (MV) switchgear panels for a project to upgrade the 11kV power network serving London Underground’s SSR (Sub-Surface Railway) lines.
> 
> EDF Energy Infrastructure Services will install the ABB MV switchgear in substations at 13 locations – from Acton Town to Upminster – where it will replace existing equipment that has now reached the end of its service life.
> 
> Delivery of the 147 panels will commence in December 2010, with delivery of the final panels scheduled for mid-2012.


http://www.theengineer.co.uk/policy...tchgear-to-london-underground/1005657.article


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

*09 Stock Northumberland Park Depot*









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5093948967/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/


----------



## marciomaco

Why they have numbers above the lines??? :nuts:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

It's a depot, there're like parking spaces.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Maida Vale tube station wins heritage plaudit*
> 
> *The modernisation of Maida Vale tube station in north-west London has been recognised with a National Railway Heritage Award plaque.*
> 
> The grade II listed building, designed by Leslie Green, was built in 1915 and has a number of elements associated with London Underground including a large mosaic of the Tube roundel, a red terracotta facade and extensive tiled wall finishes.
> 
> Mike Ashworth, design and heritage manager for London Underground, said: “Heritage is a big part of London Underground’s identity, and retaining the historical features, alongside modernisations and improvements, is very important to us and to our customers.”
> 
> White City tube station and Earl’s Court tube station were also shortlisted for the award.


http://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/heritage/underground-station-wins-heritage-plaudit/5007921.article


----------



## PortoNuts

*Cannon Street Station redevelopment*

by *The Champ*.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Wi-fi trial will let commuters browse internet on Underground*
> 
> *Commuters will be able to go online at Tube stations for the first time in a groundbreaking trial starting on Monday.*
> 
> It will mean thousands of commuters at one of London's busiest stations will be able to read their email, browse the internet and even watch live TV via wi-fi hotspots.
> 
> If successful, the trial at Charing Cross could be rolled out to the capital's busiest stations within months.
> 
> "This will change the way we commute," said Will Findlater, editor of Stuff magazine.
> 
> "It's a big step forward for the Tube network, bringing it into line with the rest of the transport system. It will be a real help by allowing people to communicate on their commute."
> 
> Boris Johnson has pledged to enable wireless access across the network by the 2012 Olympics.
> 
> "This trial will allow commuters to check their emails and browse the net while on the go," said Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor's transport adviser.
> 
> London Underground has teamed up with BT Openzone to launch the six-month trial. It will see wi-fi hotspots installed in the ticket hall and Northern and Bakerloo line platforms. Although it will not give access to mobile phone networks, users will be able to use internet services such as Skype to make calls.
> 
> BT says other key stations on the Tube network are likely to be brought online before the trial ends.
> 
> "The idea is to let people access email, Facebook and even sites like the BBC's iPlayer while they are waiting for a train," said Marjorie Leonidas from BT Openzone
> 
> Plans to roll out the system have not been finalised. "These are baby steps to see if people are happy with the service," said Miss Leonidas.
> 
> The move will bring London up to speed with other cities such as Barcelona, Glasgow and New York, where trials are already under way to offer wi-fi and phone coverage underground.Mobile phone operators are developing plans to allow calls to be made on Tube platforms and even on trains.
> 
> Richard Parry, strategy and commercial director for London Underground, said: "We hope that our customers will find it useful."


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...t-commuters-browse-internet-on-underground.do


----------



## Davodavo

^^ :applause: :applause: :applause:


PortoNuts said:


> Richard Parry, strategy and commercial director for London Underground, said: "We hope that our customers will find it useful."


Don't worry, we will. 
Is it going to be free? :?
:lol:


----------



## DanielFigFoz

I would imagine so


----------



## PortoNuts

It would be pointless if it was paid.


----------



## Pansori

Great decision. At least in the stops we'll be able to load some web content to read until the next stop (given that it will work in all or at least most stations).


----------



## Tubeman

This is a first... S Stock at a Central London station (Euston Square), courtesy of my friend Moshe... I guess he was on Night shift last night:


----------



## Tubeman

marciomaco said:


> Why they have numbers above the lines??? :nuts:


So the driver knows which train to pick up in the morning... and equally so they know they're stabling on the right road at night


----------



## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> http://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/heritage/underground-station-wins-heritage-plaudit/5007921.article


Maida Vale is one of my stations 

Sadly I was on leave last week when they unveiled the plaque so I missed it... Typical!


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Yes, you came to mind when I read that.

P.S. Beautiful pictures of S Stock there. :bow:


----------



## Tubeman

Another, same source:


----------



## PortoNuts

Sorry if I've already asked this but have you finally managed to catch the S Stock?


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> Sorry if I've already asked this but have you finally managed to catch the S Stock?


Oh no, not yet


----------



## PortoNuts

You will, keep trying, more power to you! kay:


----------



## Wilhem275

Tubeman said:


> Oh no, not yet


This is crazy. I've never been in London, you work for the London Underground, and I've spent more time on the S Stock than you!


----------



## iampuking

Tubeman said:


> Another, same source:


The S Stock is so flush with the platform. Shame the 09TS isn't.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

It has already started. From 1st November :



> *London Underground WiFi trials begin today*
> 
> *A six month trial has begun on the London Underground today, allowing users to access wireless broadband services.*
> 
> Thanks to Boris Johnson, commuters can now access a WiFi connection on their smartphone when passing through Charing Cross station. Signals are available from both the ticket hall and on the Bakerloo and Northen Line platforms.
> 
> London Underground are working with BT Openzone on the trial, which is expected to roll out across the whole of the city if it proves to be a success.
> 
> Kulveer Ranger, Transport Adviser to the Mayor, said: “This trial at Charing Cross will allow them to do just that whilst on the Tube platform. It is an important step towards seeing how this could be achieved and is part of the Mayor’s ambition to examine ways in which we can use technology to adapt the city’s transport system.
> 
> According to the BBC, around 95 percent of the capital currently has WiFi coverage. The addition of underground stations would help with the goals of ‘Project WiFi’, which plans to bring wireless network access to the entire capital in time for the Olympics.


http://www.dialtosave.co.uk/mobile/news/2010/11/01/london-underground-wifi-trials-begin-today/


----------



## Tubeman

Oooh that'll be my station this time next week... Pity I find out about this on ssc first though; no-one tells me anything!


----------



## PortoNuts

SSC is not useless after all! 

Try to access the Internet there and then tell us your experience.


----------



## Tubeman

BTopenzone is absolute pony wherever I've tried it, so I can't see it being any different on the Tube. It'll show full wifi signal on my iPhone, yet everything takes an eternity to load. It's always quicker just switching the wifi off and using 3G.


----------



## PortoNuts

Wifi is usually slow in public places, however the strength of the signal is not the same everywhere.


----------



## PortoNuts

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lodekka/5142720151/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lodekka/5143329044/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/


----------



## Axelferis

London metro is clean but so smallll!  i don't understand how this big city has one of the low capacity metro! and it is so hot in station!! i can't believe that! it was disapointing but london tube still has its charm  

I love jubilee extension!


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Jubilee Line upgrade completed by spring 2011*
> 
> *Londin Underground expects to finish upgrades on the Jubilee Line by spring next year, it has been confirmed. The new signalling programme is almost a year over schedule already and has seen more than 100 weekend closures of the line in the last three years.*
> 
> The delays and disruption were branded a “debacle” by London Mayor Boris Johnson and forced Transport for London to buy out private contractor Tube Lines in June. After four months of intensive testing, LU says it is now ready to finally bring the upgrade work to a close.
> 
> Mike Brown, managing director of LU, said: “London Underground has been working hard to address the failure of Tube Lines to deliver the Jubilee Line upgrade on time, and the knock-on effects of delays that has had on the Northern Line.
> 
> “Following successful testing of the new signalling system over recent weeks, we are now working to deliver the Jubilee Line upgrade by spring next year.” He added a programme to upgrade the Northern line would be outlined early next year, with efforts made not to replicate the disruption suffered by Jubilee passengers.
> 
> The weekend closures have caused anger among people living near stations along the line and businesses which rely on it. The O2 has been particularly affected, with thousands of fans facing arduous journeys homes after seeing their only Tube route away from the arena shut down.
> 
> Some trains will be operated under the new signalling system by Christmas, offering a significant increase in passenger capacity.


http://www.docklands24.co.uk/news/travel/jubilee_line_upgrade_completed_by_spring_2011_1_719141


----------



## iampuking

Axelferis said:


> London metro is clean but so smallll!  i don't understand how this big city has one of the low capacity metro! and it is so hot in station!! i can't believe that! it was disapointing but london tube still has its charm
> 
> I love jubilee extension!


The profile of the trains is not enough to greatly limit the capacity of the system as a whole. How come you don't level this criticism at Paris or Berlin's metro system's which have smaller than average profile trains as well?

What limits the capacity is the frequency of the trains.


----------



## DanielFigFoz

Axelferis said:


> London metro is clean but so smallll!  i don't understand how this big city has one of the low capacity metro! and it is so hot in station!! i can't believe that! it was disapointing but london tube still has its charm
> 
> I love jubilee extension!


The very small tunnels were built with deep level machinery, which was very new technology at the time, so they made it small to save money. Lots of people died too


----------



## PortoNuts

Don't most deep level stations belong to the early lines built? You can't scrap a whole network to build new tunnels.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Axelferis

iampuking said:


> The profile of the trains is not enough to greatly limit the capacity of the system as a whole. How come you don't level this criticism at Paris or Berlin's metro system's which have smaller than average profile trains as well?
> 
> What limits the capacity is the frequency of the trains.



Paris has built a whole new line -> Meteor line 14 entirely automatic!

Why london can't do the same? not enough money? but london is the richest city in europe! hno:

And the regular lines in paris can have the same dimensions for voitures than Line 14 ones!

I'm sorry even if i love London is just a shame! Tokyo, NY, Paris you have the right dimensions not london!


----------



## PortoNuts

I've heard people critise LU for a number of reasons. Size of the trains was never one of them, I've seen smaller.


----------



## waddler

LOL I sometimes get the feeling that I'm the only one who likes LU just the way it is. Sure enough it has its drawbacks, there's no doubt about that. But IMO the trains, the design and size of the stations and pretty much everything else, like the logo for instance, all add up making it one of the most recognizable transport system in the world. I wouldn't consider it in any way as being 'just a shame!'


----------



## Teach

> Paris has built a whole new line -> Meteor line 14 entirely automatic!
> 
> Why london can't do the same? not enough money? but london is the richest city in europe!
> 
> And the regular lines in paris can have the same dimensions for voitures than Line 14 ones!
> 
> I'm sorry even if i love London is just a shame! Tokyo, NY, Paris you have the right dimensions not london!


Um, what are you talking about? First, line 14 is about as old as the Jubilee line extension, so not brand new anymore. Second, it operating automatically doesn't say anything about the size or capacity of the trains. And while London doesn't have an automatically operated Tube line, it does, unlike Paris, have this little thing called the DLR, an entire SYSTEM, considerably larger than line 14, that's operated automatically. 

As for capacity, wikipedia mentions that the capacity of Paris' metro trains is between 560 and 720 per train on the main lines (1 - 14), less on the 'bis' lines. For London, some numbers are: 914 for the 1995 Tube Stock on the Northern line, and 1448 (!) for the new 2009 stock on the Victoria Line. So I don't quite get where you got the idea that the Tube trains don't have enough capacity: they actually have a considerably higher capacity than the ones in Paris. As for 'dimensions': yes, the Tube stock is quite low, but that doesn't really affect capacity. Width does. And if we compare, we see that 1995 Tube stock is 2.63m wide. Paris' MF67 is... 2.40m wide. So Paris metro cars are actually considerably smaller than London's tube cars in the place where it matters: width.


----------



## Pansori

PortoNuts said:


> I've heard people critise LU for a number of reasons. Size of the trains was never one of them, I've seen smaller.


Ouch, I think size of carriages is indeed one of the most annoying "features" of LU. That, of course, dos not apply to sub-surface lines. But try riding one of the deep level trains if you are 190cm tall (i.e. me)... I can't imagine how even taller people would feel inside. 2009 Victoria line stock is slightly better in this respect but space IS a major problem. Combine that with heat down there and lack of air conditioning (or even decent ventilation) and you may rather want to die than ride Victoria line train during the morning rush on a warm summer day.


----------



## CairnsTony

Axelferis said:


> Paris has built a whole new line -> Meteor line 14 entirely automatic!
> 
> Why london can't do the same? not enough money? but london is the richest city in europe! hno:
> 
> And the regular lines in paris can have the same dimensions for voitures than Line 14 ones!
> 
> I'm sorry even if i love London is just a shame! Tokyo, NY, Paris you have the right dimensions not london!


Take a look at the info on here and elsewhere about Crossrail which is currently under construction under London. This is a huge project and will significantly add capacity to the existing system.


----------



## RedArkady

Re the Battersea underground extension which seems to be becoming more likely,
why would they build the spur from Kennington on the Northern Line rather than the rather closer Vauxhall on the Victoria Line? And if it is going to be a Kennington spur, why not take the opportunity for a new Northern/Victoria interchange at Vauxhall?


----------



## Tubeman

Teach said:


> Um, what are you talking about? First, line 14 is about as old as the Jubilee line extension, so not brand new anymore. Second, it operating automatically doesn't say anything about the size or capacity of the trains. And while London doesn't have an automatically operated Tube line, it does, unlike Paris, have this little thing called the DLR, an entire SYSTEM, considerably larger than line 14, that's operated automatically.


The Victoria Line has been automatic since 1968!

The Central Line followed in the 1990's with the Jubilee now almost complete and the Northern in progress... The Underground will be predominantly ATO within 5 years.


----------



## Teach

> The Victoria Line has been automatic since 1968!


He means automatic as in 'driverless'.


----------



## makita09

RedArkady said:


> Re the Battersea underground extension which seems to be becoming more likely,
> why would they build the spur from Kennington on the Northern Line rather than the rather closer Vauxhall on the Victoria Line? And if it is going to be a Kennington spur, why not take the opportunity for a new Northern/Victoria interchange at Vauxhall?


The Victoria line needs all of its capacity in between Brixton and Victoria, siphoning off a few to Battersea would cause terrible overcrowding on the the remaining trains to Brixton.

The northern line at Kennington is a good choice, as it is two lines anyway. The Charing Cross branch, at the south end of Kennington, has tracks that join the city branch lines onwards to Morden, but also has its own reversing loop that comes back on itself. Meaning many trains from the Charing Cross branch turn around at Kennington. Extending some of these to Battersea would present no capacity impacts on any other services, and it would be easy enough to extend the tunnels, compared to doing the same on the Victoria line.


----------



## sotonsi

While the Kennington branch is the best option for an extension to Battersea, that doesn't make it sensible to build an extension of an existing line to Battersea. There's better uses for the Charing Cross branch.


----------



## PortoNuts

Teach said:


> He means automatic as in 'driverless'.


Perhaps I'm a bit old-fashioned on this but I'm not fond of driverless trains. They lose character, something that makes LU what it is.


----------



## iampuking

Teach said:


> Um, what are you talking about? First, line 14 is about as old as the Jubilee line extension, so not brand new anymore. Second, it operating automatically doesn't say anything about the size or capacity of the trains. And while London doesn't have an automatically operated Tube line, it does, unlike Paris, have this little thing called the DLR, an entire SYSTEM, considerably larger than line 14, that's operated automatically.
> 
> As for capacity, wikipedia mentions that the capacity of Paris' metro trains is between 560 and 720 per train on the main lines (1 - 14), less on the 'bis' lines. For London, some numbers are: 914 for the 1995 Tube Stock on the Northern line, and 1448 (!) for the new 2009 stock on the Victoria Line. So I don't quite get where you got the idea that the Tube trains don't have enough capacity: they actually have a considerably higher capacity than the ones in Paris. As for 'dimensions': yes, the Tube stock is quite low, but that doesn't really affect capacity. Width does. And if we compare, we see that 1995 Tube stock is 2.63m wide. Paris' MF67 is... 2.40m wide. So Paris metro cars are actually considerably smaller than London's tube cars in the place where it matters: width.


Thanks for this reasoned response to Axelferis' claptrap. I couldn't be bothered to do my own.



sotonsi said:


> While the Kennington branch is the best option for an extension to Battersea, that doesn't make it sensible to build an extension of an existing line to Battersea. There's better uses for the Charing Cross branch.


I agree. It'd be better in South East London. But that's what you get when you allow private financing to construct railway lines...


----------



## Dobbo

iampuking said:


> I agree. It'd be better in South East London. But that's what you get when you allow private financing to construct railway lines...


I would have thought the Bakerloo would be better going there when it is upgraded?

I do not think the "Northern" line per se will go to Battersea untill the two branches are separated into two distinct lines, which i think will also require the re-build of Camden Station and all the junctions round there.

Perhaps Tubeman can assist if he notices this. He is the resident expert!


----------



## makita09

sotonsi said:


> While the Kennington branch is the best option for an extension to Battersea, that doesn't make it sensible to build an extension of an existing line to Battersea. There's better uses for the Charing Cross branch.


I agree with that actually. I don't now how many trains Battersea would need. Perhaps the CX branch could still go to SE London, with a Battersea branch as well? 8tph to Battersea and 20-24 tph SE London (assuming signalling upgrades and the route separation allow 32tph through the CX core).

Dobbo - I think both the Bakerloo and the Northern line should go to SE London on two different routes.


----------



## PortoNuts

Future expansions of the Tube should definitely focus in South London.


----------



## Davodavo

PortoNuts said:


> Future expansions of the Tube should definitely focus in South London.


Well, in the meantime there is Tramlink.
It's true however that the Tube needs to expand South.

Cheers.


----------



## Dobbo

makita09 said:


> Dobbo - I think both the Bakerloo and the Northern line should go to SE London on two different routes.


I think it would be quite difficult to put both lines down to SE London. I feel that expansion of the Bakerloo and a (short) extension to the Victoria is more realistic, as the Bakerloo is underused to E&C and a greater frequency can be realised on the Vic by modifying a new terminus.

It is hard to achieve any expansion on the Northern Line right now because at peak times it is at capacity around the Kennington Area and it would require the separation of the lines in order to realise the increase in capacity required to safely extend the lines.


----------



## PortoNuts

Davodavo said:


> Well, in the meantime there is Tramlink.
> It's true however that the Tube needs to expand South.
> 
> Cheers.


An underground line would be a major plus in South London, which has been poorly served by the Tube for a long time, mainly due to the existance of several railway lines operating there.

Btw,



> *Battersea power station offers £203m for Northern Line upgrade*
> 
> *The developer of Battersea Power Station is to pay more than £200million towards the cost of an extension to the Northern line.*
> 
> The contribution is one of the conditions set by Wandsworth council for the long-awaited £4.4billion redevelopment of Europe's largest brick building.
> 
> No work will be allowed without a contract in place for the construction of the new Northern line spur to Kennington, with new tunnels and stops at the power station and Nine Elms.
> 
> The revelation comes before a crunch council meeting on Thursday that will decide whether plans to redevelop the grade II* listed building will get the go-ahead. Irish developer Real Estate Opportunities has offered to pay £203million towards the Tube developments, which could cover about a third of the cost, estimated at up to £663million.
> 
> Deputy Mayor Sir Simon Milton said: “There's still a lot of work to do but this important project could be set to take another step forward.”


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ffers-pound-203m-for-northern-line-upgrade.do


----------



## sotonsi

Dobbo said:


> It is hard to achieve any expansion on the Northern Line right now because at peak times it is at capacity around the Kennington Area and it would require the separation of the lines in order to realise the increase in capacity required to safely extend the lines.


There's tons of capacity on the Charing Cross branch (not the Bank branch though). It might even be emptier than the Bakerloo at Elephant.

Splitting the Northern line means that frequencies can improve on the whole line, especially north of Kennington (on both branches).

Northern line CX branch can also serve South London, as well as SE London (though not both at the same time!). SW London has a more logical and segregated suburban rail network than South and SE London - with their multiple termini and general everywhere to everywhere-else type service patterns that add up to sensible frequencies - and thus needs a tube line less desperately.


----------



## Axelferis

Teach said:


> Um, what are you talking . And while London doesn't have an automatically operated Tube line, it does, unlike Paris, have this little thing called the DLR, an entire SYSTEM, considerably larger than line 14, that's operated automatically.
> 
> .


Are you serious?? You dare compare line 14 to DLR ?? :lol:

:nuts: Why?

Line 14 is the best in Europe and only barcelona whole new automatic line can compete!

DLR has nothing to do with metor line 14






i love LU no problem and it has the best logo for a metro but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity with new materials cars!


----------



## Apoc89

Why can't you compare Line 14 with the DLR? The DLR is considerably larger, carries around the same amount of passengers(approx. 60 million per year), handles multiple branches, and was built over a decade before Line 14. They serve different purposes, but from a technical standpoint they're more than comparable.

And as has been mentioned, the Victoria, Central, and soon the Jubilee lines are all automated, with the driver kept mostly to operate the doors and for psychological reasons(people feel safer when there's a human at the controls).


----------



## iampuking

Axelferis said:


> i love LU no problem and it has the best logo for a metro but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity with new materials cars!


Have you ignored every previous post?

LU has more potential capacity. Right now the Paris Metro has higher patronage but this is because it has better signalling. LU is currently replacing the signalling on many lines and this will mean comparable frequencies to the Paris Metro. This, combined with the more capacious trains of LU, means that LU will have more capacity.


----------



## coth

Axelferis said:


> Paris has built a whole new line -> Meteor line 14 entirely automatic!
> 
> Why london can't do the same? not enough money? but london is the richest city in europe! hno:
> 
> And the regular lines in paris can have the same dimensions for voitures than Line 14 ones!
> 
> I'm sorry even if i love London is just a shame! Tokyo, NY, Paris you have the right dimensions not london!


Automated lines are less advanced and less safe than manned trains in busy network nowadays.


----------



## Axelferis

I used dlr and it has nothing to compare with line 14. Dlr is a light metro. Meteor is heavy. Dlr is more like a bigger val metro we have here in lille. I can't underdstand why is so hard for you to say that some materials abroad are better than your ones? And i repeat anyway i love LU!!! Just too small my girlfriend who are from paris say the same thing.


----------



## Dobbo

sotonsi said:


> There's tons of capacity on the Charing Cross branch (not the Bank branch though). It might even be emptier than the Bakerloo at Elephant.
> 
> Splitting the Northern line means that frequencies can improve on the whole line, especially north of Kennington (on both branches).
> 
> Northern line CX branch can also serve South London, as well as SE London (though not both at the same time!). SW London has a more logical and segregated suburban rail network than South and SE London - with their multiple termini and general everywhere to everywhere-else type service patterns that add up to sensible frequencies - and thus needs a tube line less desperately.


I agree, but for an expansion/spur to take advantage of the extra capacity possibility on the Charing Cross Branch, the various junctions at Camden Town need to be sorted out so that CHX trains always go to Edgeware and Bank trains go to High Barnet/Mill Hill East.

In any event, the plan for the Northern Line is to do this and expand west towards Battersea and, i suspect in tim to Clapham Junction to join up with the Chelney when it is built.

This may allow expansion of the Victoria Line, and you would hope the Bakerloo to South East which would make a huge difference down there.


----------



## Teach

> Why?


Why not?



> Line 14 is the best in Europe


Why?



> but the cars are too small sorry! Paris is bigger in terms of capacity


Seriously, are you blind? Let me repeat for you:

Paris: 560 - 720 passengers per train
London: Up to 1448 passengers per train

Paris: cars 2.40m wide
London: cars 2.63m wide



> why is so hard for you to say that some materials abroad are better than your ones?


Exactly what makes it 'better'? You've so far said about half a dozen times we need to 'accept' that it's better, but you have not once mentioned why it is better. You've made claims about the trains in London being too small compared to Paris, something the numbers clearly contradict. All you've pointed to so far to indicate line 14 is 'better' is because it doesn't have a driver, but how that makes it better I haven't seen you explain.


----------



## Axelferis

Have you used one time in your life line 14? If no try it and you'll understand how the future is incarnated in this comfortable line

Wider cars in london? False because compare the material used aka MF01 is larger, wider spacier i'm going to bRing specs later.


----------



## Minato ku

Please Axelferis, could you stop it.
It annoys many people, including me. I wouldn't like to see someone in Paris metro thread almost writting that this network is shitty and without any good argument.
What prevents anyone to do this if a French forumer do the same on the London underground topic ? Nothing.

On theory it is true, London tube trains are larger than any Paris metro rolling stock.
The MF01 is not larger than a MF67.
It is maybe due at the design of the Tube train that Paris metro look spacier.


----------



## Teach

> Have you used one time in your life line 14?


Yes I have. It was nice. A bit like the JLE.



> Wider cars in london? False because compare the material used aka MF01 is larger, wider spacier i'm going to bRing specs later.


Don't bother, I've already found them:
MF01: 2.40 m wide, just like the MF67. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_2000
1995 Tube Stock: 2.63 m wide, 23 cm more than MF01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_1995_Stock
2009 Tube Stock: 2.68 m wide, 28 cm more than MF01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_2009_Stock
S-Stock: 2.92 m wide, 52 cm (!) more than MF01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S_Stock

Once again: WHAT makes Line 14 better? You still haven't given an answer to that question. It's not the wider cars, because they're actually narrower, as I've shown once again. So what is it then?


----------



## Axelferis

Minato-> it's a just a discussion. I give my opinion on what is good and bad in LU.have you quote my sentences on positive points in london tube? No you mention only the negative ones. Irrelevant hno:

Wider does't mean spacier because tube cars are incurved and it is. Hard to stand without knock your head in tube. It's not possible that tube cars are higher than parisian or barcelona ones. It's obvious!!!! I didn't dreamed. The tube gives the feeling to be In narrow cars.i'm not the only one thinking that. It will be more relevant to give specs of the real used inner space in a car. Do you have them? It's not a trolling attitude from me i love paris and london. But i love metro of the world and i need to be impartial and objective


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## Teach

> It's not possible that tube cars are higher than parisian or barcelona ones.


Nobody ever said they were. In fact, I said they were lower in my very first response. I said (and proved) they were wider, and have a higher capacity, contrary to your claims. Twice. And you still haven't said what makes the Line 14 better. I'm starting to get tired of this. It's time for you to either put up or shut up.


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## Axelferis

Please wait i'm at work. Soon be back home to deliver all facts you need.


----------



## coth

Teach said:


> Why not?
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, are you blind? Let me repeat for you:
> 
> Paris: 560 - 720 passengers per train
> London: Up to 1448 passengers per train
> 
> Paris: cars 2.40m wide
> London: cars 2.63m wide


In terms of reliability, capacity and intensity of service Moscow beats both of you. So your dispute is pointless


----------



## PortoNuts

coth said:


> In terms of reliability, capacity and intensity of service Moscow beats both of you. So your dispute is pointless


If it wasn't for Moscow people wouldn't even know what's an underground railway system right?

I know a system that I find much better than Moscow's and no, it's not London nor Paris.


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## Axelferis

Well i'm back! 

1/Preliminary i want to clarify my intention:* i'm not here to flood , troll or start metro wars! i'm impartial and objective *! i'm going to show several pics of another existing engines to shed the lights on this debate-> London cars engine don't suit to the beauty of LU stations (jubilee line essentially) I repeat it because some people here think i'm against london but it is false i LOVE London and just look the pics i took during my last visit two weeks ago 

What i want to stress on is that the cars used in london are imo "outdated" when it compares to international new standards. i don't understand why london has not an equipment of the 21st century like paris , barcelona, shangai despite london is upgrading its underground network?!! I love the stations, logo, cleanliness, security wich are superior than Paris for example  It already looks like a bit old 

But when it comes to equipment it is a deception because even they are wider, the car don't give the same level of comfort than paris or barcelona!

Loo paris Mp 05 automatic voitures in paris outside and inner, the beauty of the cars suits the beautiful stations:


















My girlfriend said that didn't understand why a so big city like london has so small cars? But you said me it's larger but we don't have this feeling just because it is incurved and we have to down our head  ->





2/ You 'll answer me that Meteor is a new line ok, but look MF2000 cars produced by Bombardier which statrt to run on regular line they look like spacier than narrow londonians counterparts no?:







It's true that london has more cars this why the number of passengers transported is bigger but in fact in a car i'm not sure London has more potential.

specs:

*mf2000 caracteristiques

Train length: 75.75m
-Number of passengers (at peak times): 784
-Top speed: 70km/h 
-Total width: 2.40 m
-Height above track: 3.444 m *

And let me show you videos of what i called a 21st metro car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsUK5M-kGgk

3/ But we talk about Paris ?! look for example new barcelona cars on automatic line wich looks like more futuristic:




Then don't be offended my forumers friends, it's not a war "my metro vs your metro" :nono:

I want just to give my opinion of i think a metro 21st should be and london equipment doesn't match this standards! And i don't understand because london is ahead of its competitors when you look urbanistic changes with several best projects like shard tower, o2 arena, wembley, Gherkin tower, Docklands in general.

Trust me i love london and i want they have a better equipment.


----------



## deasine

Axelferis, whether you love or hate the Underground, you still shouldn't be comparing two completely different metro networks together. While you don't intend to troll, by definition, your posts can be considered as trolling. Your posts have sparked the beginning of a war that shouldn't have started, whether or not you intend to do so. Minato Ku has already brought this up.

At the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You can bring up your opinion onto the discussion table, but there's a point where we should stop and let go. Even then, there's an art to debating that won't start flaming discussion wars. I feel we've crossed the line already; this will be the last post of the the Paris and London network debate. 

And for the record, improvements to a metro network don't just happen over night. It's taken years for Paris to develop its network to the state it is in today, and likewise, it will be taking some time for London's transportation network to improve. London has been investing in many improvements such as Crossrail, new vehicles, etc.


----------



## Teach

> I want just to give my opinion of i think a metro 21st should be and london equipment doesn't match this standards!


Just exactly what 'standards' is it Tube cars don't match? The only thing you've pointed at, and keep pointing at, is the height of the Tube cars, and that's something that's never going to change (I mean, you DO know WHY they are that low, I hope?). Yes, Parisian trains are higher, but other than that, I don't see what makes them 'roomier'. On the contrary, the odd seating configuration on the Paris trains takes up a lot of unneccessary space, needlessly limiting their capacity.



> MF2000 cars produced by Bombardier which statrt to run on regular line they look like spacier than narrow londonians counterparts no?:


There you are with those 'narrow' London cars again: for the third time: the Parisian ones are narrower than those in London. And no, other than the height, I'm willing to bet the Parisian cars can take considerably fewer passengers than London Tube cars. And I'm talking per car, not per train.

Still haven't seen any objective facts as to why Line 14 is 'the best in the world' BTW.


----------



## deasine

^When I mean *last post*, I really mean *last post* with regards to the London vs. Paris debate.


----------



## Teach

^^Sorry, I was already writing my post when you made yours, so didn't see it.


----------



## geoking66

The 92, 95, 96, 09, and S stock are up to modern standards, unlike much of Paris' fleet. In all honestly, as much as Londoners complain about the Tube, it's one of the best systems in the world in terms of efficiency, throughput, and technology, even more incredible considering its age. Yes, it's got its problems, but every metro system in the world does. So instead of needlessly saying that some Tube trains are too small when they will never get bigger, it's more important to focus on upgrading old technology, Crossrail, and further integration with the National Rail network.


----------



## Axelferis

Could you explain the crossrail projects? it is a suburb train like we have RER in paris?

And please explain what is the s stock and others engines?

How are they classified? Which is the best and why? I don't know very well all details for LU

thank you


----------



## Pansori

PortoNuts said:


> If it wasn't for Moscow people wouldn't even know what's an underground railway system right?
> 
> I know a system that I find much better than Moscow's and no, it's not London nor Paris.


It's Singapore! Then again, it's probably better than any other system in the world anyway.


----------



## iampuking

PortoNuts said:


> If it wasn't for Moscow people wouldn't even know what's an underground railway system right?


I hope this is sarcasm... Everyone knows that LU is the first ever metro. Moscow is nearly half it's age. In fact, it would be pathetic if Moscow wasn't better than LU, considering it learnt all of LU's mistakes before the first tunnel was bored.


----------



## iampuking

Axelferis said:


> Could you explain the crossrail projects? it is a suburb train like we have RER in paris?
> 
> And please explain what is the s stock and others engines?
> 
> How are they classified? Which is the best and why? I don't know very well all details for LU
> 
> thank you


1992 Stock (Central line)



















1995 Stock (Northern line)



















1996 Stock (Jubilee line)



















2009 Stock (Victoria line)



















S Stock (Metropolitan line)



















Ok so now we've established this:

1) LU has more capacious trains than the Paris Metro (wider and longer).
2) LU has just as many modern trains as the Paris Metro.
3) LU has just as modern stations as the Paris Metro.

What is your argument exactly? The deep level Tube lines are cramped? Well, this only applies to people who are at the edge by the doors, and is never going to change so isn't worth complaining about.


----------



## Axelferis

if no worth complaining then we can say LU is everytime outdated no?
from a foreigner view i'm sorry but it is disappointing because Lu in peaks schedules is just exasperating!

Thank you for informations i didn't notice all those details! On central line i used those narrow cars! But when i look last ones on victoria i feel they are more spacier and modern than central ones! Am i wrong?

And they are not the same larger! Tell me which is the more larger and which is the less.

And on point 3/ you report, sorry but i've never critized the stations! :rant: You don't understand! I criticized cars!

in All your engines you have this single door at the end of car when it opens it's just ridiculous comparing with all passengers who want to get on the engine! I don't understand why Lu still produce cars with this single narrow door that is not enough for the traffic passenger


----------



## Tubeman

Dobbo said:


> I agree, but for an expansion/spur to take advantage of the extra capacity possibility on the Charing Cross Branch, the various junctions at Camden Town need to be sorted out so that CHX trains always go to Edgeware and Bank trains go to High Barnet/Mill Hill East.


Nothing needs to be done to the junctions; Edgware - Charing Cross and High Barnet - Bank can be segregated with the existing layout... Every movement is grade separated. In fact, it involves decommissioning points and tunnels, not building anything new, to remove the current Edgware - Bank and High Barnet - Charing Cross paths (this would be foolhardy however).

The issue at Camden is the expected large rise in customers moving between the two 'arms' of the station (the Edgware side and the High Barnet side), because whereas before a customer at Archway (for example) would likely let a Bank train go to wait for their desired Charing Cross train, now they'd have to catch the Bank train (because there'd be none other) and change at Camden, so there'd be a huge increase in southbound passengers having to change there through limited capacity cross-passages.

On the plus side, southbound passengers entering Camden Town station will know which southbound platform is which, because ex-Edgware = Charing Cross, and ex-Barnet = Bank so there won't be the current dashing between platforms witnessed.


----------



## PortoNuts

iampuking said:


> I hope this is sarcasm... Everyone knows that LU is the first ever metro. Moscow is nearly half it's age. In fact, it would be pathetic if Moscow wasn't better than LU, considering it learnt all of LU's mistakes before the first tunnel was bored.


Of course it's sarcasm! 

@Pansori: Perhaps it's Singapore in the world but I don't know nothing about it, I can't have an opinion. I was talking about Europe though.


----------



## Axelferis

PortoNuts said:


>


but we see nothing in this video!

@iampumkin-> please stay correct and don't agress me!

I didn't know for crossrails ! Nevertheless it's good because It miss London underground network such connectivty.

cool to see that in london


----------



## PortoNuts

Well, we see a journey from a passenger perspective. I suppose most of what is discussed here is from a user's point of view.


----------



## iampuking

Axelferis said:


> but we see nothing in this video!
> 
> @iampumkin-> please stay correct and don't agress me!
> 
> I didn't know for crossrails ! Nevertheless it's good because It miss London underground network such connectivty.
> 
> cool to see that in london


I'm more correct than you have been and I haven't "agressed" anyone.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

Does anyone know when the Victoria Line signalling upgrade will be finished? They will increase frequencies right?


----------



## cristof

victoria line is a mess...with the circle/district line maybe Bakerloo? i think it is the worst line of the tube network...and also...victoria station is just terrible...please...upgraded this station quickly because this is just Overcrowded all the time...i hate this station...about the new rolling stock running on the victoria line...the auto voice is just too dynamic to be on air lol...i cant listen my music peacefully ...


----------



## PortoNuts

Yeah some stations need a redevelopment but there are good ones as well, like Finsbury Park. Right know they are focusing on the rolling stock and the signalling. One thing at a time.


----------



## PortoNuts

http://www.flickr.com/photos/one_schism/5185471521/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/


----------



## jetsetwilly

cristof said:


> victoria line is a mess...with the circle/district line maybe Bakerloo? i think it is the worst line of the tube network...and also...victoria station is just terrible...please...upgraded this station quickly because this is just Overcrowded all the time...i hate this station...about the new rolling stock running on the victoria line...the auto voice is just too dynamic to be on air lol...i cant listen my music peacefully ...


There's work ongoing even as we speak to upgrade Victoria - a second ticket hall and an expansion of the facilities will be constructed over the next few years. The problem with the Victoria Line is that there was a budget cut, so LU changed the station designs to save cash; the result was that the stations were almost instantly overwhelmed. My own personal bete noir is Vauxhall, which is still two separate, busy stations, instead of one effective interchange.


----------



## PortoNuts

It's these upgrades that are not well known because they're not mega-projects but they are essential to bring sophistication to the system.


----------



## sotonsi

upgrading Victoria is almost mega-project in terms of cost - £500 million isn't it?


----------



## PortoNuts

Does that only include signalling replacement or station upgrades? I like what they did in Finsbury Park.


----------



## PortoNuts

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bloophoenix/5193358512/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/


----------



## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## iampuking

cristof said:


> victoria line is a mess...with the circle/district line maybe Bakerloo? i think it is the worst line of the tube network...and also...victoria station is just terrible...please...upgraded this station quickly because this is just Overcrowded all the time...i hate this station...about the new rolling stock running on the victoria line...the auto voice is just too dynamic to be on air lol...i cant listen my music peacefully ...


Whats wrong with the Victoria line? I think it's one of the better lines, and the new rolling stock will improve it even more. But I do agree with you regarding Victoria station.


----------



## PortoNuts

They are doing a lot of repairing work on many Victoria Line stations so they look like little gems from the early times. They did that on Green Park station quite recently.


----------



## iheartcities

haha if one thinks the Victoria line is bad then he/she needs to see more of the underground :lol:


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Commuters told to avoid Tube during Olympics*
> 
> *Commuters will be advised to avoid using the Underground during the Olympics as the network struggles to cope with millions more visitors.*
> 
> Games chiefs will urge more people to walk to work from mainline railway stations, get on their bike or use other means of travel. Bosses will also be asked to allow staff to work from home and set up video and telephone conferences instead of travelling to meetings.
> 
> *Kicking off a London 2012 public information campaign, the Olympic Delivery Authority revealed for the first time the impact the Games will have on the city's transport network. They expect an extra 20 million journeys on public transport, with trips almost doubling from the daily norm to 6.5 million on the busiest day.*
> 
> The influx will include 10 million ticket-holders and a million visitors to outdoor “live sites” broadcasting Olympic action in the biggest logistical exercise ever undertaken in London. Tube travellers will be faced with delays of up to one hour on key routes, the authority warned.
> 
> Disruption will be worst on the Central and Jubilee lines, which will ferry spectators eastwards to the Olympic Park in Stratford. The forecast delays will be a blow to long-suffering office workers using the Jubilee line, which has become one of the most notorious stretches of the network.
> 
> Today's “Keep on Running” campaign comes amid concern that businesses located on or near the 100-mile network of VIP Olympic lanes will suffer disruption. Firms on the route have been advised to order supplies early and reschedule deliveries to off-peak times. The Federation of Small Businesses has said it might advise some members to shut down during the Olympics, but the authority said it hoped such measures would not be necessary.
> 
> Speaking to a meeting of 400 businesses about Olympic transport at the ExCel centre, its chief executive David Higgins said: “There will also be some challenges for the capital as we welcome the world to London. It will be business as unusual and we are reaching out early to help companies plan their Games and ensure they keep running in 2012.”
> 
> Colin Stanbridge, chief executive of the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry, said: “There will be inevitable pressures on the transport system and it is crucial that all companies are aware of any impact on their own firm. Affected businesses will need to think ahead and should start considering plans as early as possible.
> 
> “This might include implementing travel plans or flexible working for employees, reducing non-essential journeys and making adjustments to delivery schedules to ensure they can remain open for business as normal.”
> 
> *How transport will be affected*
> 
> *Roads*
> 
> Games chiefs want the number of road journeys into London cut by a fifth for the Games — on top of the seasonal drop of 10 per cent during the school holidays when the event takes place.
> 
> Only with such reductions can they be confident that the network of Olympic lanes will work. They have guaranteed that VIPs will be able to get from their hotels in Park Lane to Stratford in 17 minutes.
> 
> *Tube*
> 
> The greatest pressure will be on Central and Jubilee lines heading to the Olympic Park where the main gateway stations will be Stratford and West Ham. Queues outside stations during extended morning and evening peaks seem inevitable and experts have warned of paralysis if Stratford station is shut by a security alert.
> 
> *Rail*
> 
> Commuter routes into London will be under greater pressure. Carriages with standing room only will be further burdened as Olympics fans from the commuter belt travel in during rush hour for early heats. The will be extra pressure on St Pancras, from where millions of ticketholders will be shuttled into the Park on the high-speed javelin.
> 
> *Cycling/walking*
> 
> Games bosses want Londoners to embrace the spirit of the Tube strikes and get on their bikes. There will be a massive bike park in Victoria Park and the Boris bike scheme is being extended to Tower Hamlets by 2012.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...mmuters-told-to-avoid-tube-during-olympics.do


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Victoria line tops Tube complaints as £10m new trains are launched*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The Victoria line receives more complaints than any other Tube route — even though many of its multi-million-pound new trains are now running, new figures reveal.*
> 
> Its passengers made 174 complaints out of 1,986 over the whole network in the four weeks from September 19, the most recently available statistics. Twenty of the line's new trains, about half the additional stock, were operational at the time. The rest are being introduced at the rate of one a fortnight as part of a £900 million upgrade due for completion by spring 2012.
> 
> However, problems with computer software failures and over-sensitive door sensors have raised questions over whether adequate testing was carried out. In one instance last month thousands suffered delays after the straps of a passenger's bag were caught in the doors of a new train. The District line had the second highest number of complaints with 161, followed by the Jubilee line with 158.
> 
> The four weeks covered came just before the Tube's “worst month” on record for delays. Complaints for that period, when thousands of passengers had to be led through tunnels to safety, are expected to be higher. The figures were uncovered by Valerie Shawcross, Labour transport spokeswoman for the London Assembly. She said: “They show that passengers are rightly aggrieved. The Mayor needs to show he is taking action.”
> 
> London Underground's managing director Mike Brown confirmed the new Victoria line stock is suffering from some “fundamental issues”. He said the faults were a direct result of contracts awarded by defunct maintenance giant Metronet which meant new stock was not “intensively tested”. A Transport for London official said: “Several unrelated problems caused disruption during this period, including industrial action.
> 
> “Close to 90 million trips were completed at the time, meaning fewer than one in 40,000 resulted in complaint.” During the bag incident the train's doors could not completely close, which stopped the train and led to all 800 passengers being ordered off. It was taken out of service. It was one of the fully automatic £10 million trains ordered as part of the Victoria line's £900 million upgrade.
> 
> Ambulances were called to Pimlico last week when 3,000 were trapped inside “furnace-like” carriages in a broken train. TfL admits the problem was caused by the new trains, which have proved 23 times less reliable than the 43-year-old trains they are replacing.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...aints-as-pound-10m-new-trains-are-launched.do


----------



## Axelferis

how can you explain that such "modern" voitures meet so much failures?


----------



## PortoNuts

Could be simply bad luck or a manufacturing problem. The trains are from Bombardier Transportation. Anyway, no one better than Tubeman or iampuking to answer that I suppose.


----------



## Axelferis

iampunking will insult me :lol:


----------



## iampuking

^^Teething problems is the only answer I can come up with.

And btw, there is only one 'n' in my screen name.


----------



## Dobbo

Axelferis said:


> how can you explain that such "modern" voitures meet so much failures?


It is integration/teething problems. You have old trains on infrastructure that is partially old (which they are designed for) and partially old (which they are not). The opposite is true for the new stock.

If there are still problems with the new stock when the signalling etc is complete and they have been running for a month or two like that - then we have problems!!


----------



## Acemcbuller

*The Victoria Line: Bathtubs and Breakdowns *

The amount of problems and minor delays has been very irritating.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Axelferis

I notice something with London transports:

They are modern without being futuristic unlikely Asia cities or paris , barcelona for europe!

-Like you show the stations are clean, clear, cars too but not so fantastic when come to futuristic aspect.
-Waterloo station was cool designed but when you walk there when eurostar used to arrive there it wasn't futuristic
-St pancras too! very clean and modern but not futuristic!
-it seems to be the same for new stratford railway station= a continuation , not a revolution in design

It is a thing i notice in the most of your transportation urban spaces-> being modern without being futuristic!

It's a different path when you compare asia futuristic new transports places.

it's just my opinion.


----------



## Rational Plan

A few interesting points from Modern Railways in regards to London Rail.

The Tube upgrade project has survived largely untouched in regards the comprehensive spending review. Cuts are concentrated in Station upgrades. New trains, signalling track and power has priority.

There is some massive resignalling required and there are no kind words about Thales in regards to the Jubilee line.

As they have got a bit more time for new trains for the deep tubes they have begun to rethink on new trains and it looks like they are basically reviving the Space train concept, but now called the Evo.

Basically they are looking at a semi-articulated configuration. Made of light weight aluminium design, passive steering bogies, all double doors with through gangways between cars and a lower floor. From the picture supplied it looks similar to the Xtropolis design pitched for Crossrail. There would be two double doors per articulated section, with both doors practically next to each other. Each carriage would be much shorter than current stock. The aim is to reduce power consumption from 0.42 Kwh per passenger km to just 0.26 kwh/ per pkm. This would produce much less heat in the tunnels and allow air conditioning on the trains. Even if that does not quite work out the less heat put in to the tunnels the better. 

After the Sub surface lines are resignalled the Piccadilly line will be the next one to resignalled as there is a high degree of line sharing with the sub surface lines.


----------



## PortoNuts

Aren't Victoria Line and Jubilee Line the only ones being resignalled at the moment?


----------



## iampuking

Axelferis said:


> I notice something with London transports:
> 
> They are modern without being futuristic unlikely Asia cities or paris , barcelona for europe!
> 
> -Like you show the stations are clean, clear, cars too but not so fantastic when come to futuristic aspect.
> -Waterloo station was cool designed but when you walk there when eurostar used to arrive there it wasn't futuristic
> -St pancras too! very clean and modern but not futuristic!
> -it seems to be the same for new stratford railway station= a continuation , not a revolution in design
> 
> It is a thing i notice in the most of your transportation urban spaces-> being modern without being futuristic!
> 
> It's a different path when you compare asia futuristic new transports places.
> 
> it's just my opinion.


Care to post examples?

And your argument about St Pancras is void because the recent section was designed to compliment, rather than compete with, the original Barlow trainshed.


----------



## Axelferis

you never understand what i mean hno:


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## iampuking

Axelferis said:


> you never understand what i mean hno:


I doubt I'm the only one...


----------



## cristof

iheartcities said:


> haha if one thinks the Victoria line is bad then he/she needs to see more of the underground :lol:


are you kidding??? i am living here for some time now...so i am far away legible when i am saying this...for me...best tube lines are central and northern line and also Jubilee...


----------



## PortoNuts

Good news.  What's left for the Jubilee Line upgrade?


----------



## iampuking

^^Upping the frequency, I suppose.


----------



## PortoNuts

That has to do with signalling, or doesn't the Jubilee Line need new signalling?


----------



## iampuking

^^ The signalling has just been replaced, hence why trains are now using TBTC (transmission based train control) and driving under ATO. This replaces the traditional lineside signals and manual driving in the past.

The Jubilee line now joins the Victoria and Central lines in that respect.


----------



## PortoNuts

I was confused about that, thanks for the enlightenment.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## iampuking

^^ Notting Hill Station looks so much better after it's refurbishment, it used to be a complete dump.


----------



## PortoNuts

They did wonders in this station, it looks brand new. :bow:


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *New Tube alarm iPhone app wakes you up earlier if there are delays*
> 
> *The Tube Alarm app wakes you up earlier if there is a delay or a suspension on lines you use. Launching tomorrow, the £2.99 app is for iPhones and Google Android handsets.*
> 
> Using a feed from the Transport for London website, the alarm app knows if your Tube line has delays.
> 
> ‘You can set it to go off maybe 30 minutes earlier if there are major delays on your line, and if there are minor delays you can set it to go off perhaps ten minutes earlier,’ said database architect Arkajit Bala, 29, from Wandsworth, south London.
> 
> He came up with the idea after a bad commute. ‘I got to the Tube and the line was part suspended. In the end, it took me three hours to get to work. If I had have known about the suspension I could have done something about it.’
> 
> TfL already offers a free text alert service warning of delays on your commute.


http://www.metro.co.uk/tech/852179-...-app-wakes-you-up-earlier-if-there-are-delays


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## DanielFigFoz

I'm going to miss the trains with across seating, but at least the Bakerloo Line still has it.


----------



## iampuking

^^District line does too, and the new S Stock...


----------



## DanielFigFoz

^^ I was talking about in sub-surface lines, they're more compact.


----------



## Acemcbuller

TheKorean said:


> What to the Brits call the trains when its going above ground, running at elevated tracks?


In my experience as a born and bred Londoner The Underground/Tube is always called that regardless of if it is above or below ground.
"The train" usually refers to the non-Tube railways but not always


----------



## davidaiow

^I've noticed more and more people saying, "gotta go catch the train" when they mean tube. It's slightly annoying.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Grade I protection for St James’s Tube station*
> 
> *A Tube station today took its place alongside Buckingham Palace and the Tower of London as one of the capital's most important buildings. St James's Park station has been awarded Grade I listed status, granting it extra protection from redevelopment and recognising its “great historical significance”.*
> 
> The building above the platforms, known as 55 Broadway, was built as the headquarters of London Underground. When completed in 1929 it was the tallest building in London at 174 feet.
> 
> Eight decorative features were carved by artists into its Portland stone facade but one, called Day, had to be altered as it showed a naked boy. Its sculptor, Jacob Epstein, chiselled one-and-a-half inches from the boy's ***** in a concession to Twenties sensitivities.
> 
> Designed by architect Charles Holden, and considered to be his finest work, 55 Broadway was inspired by the skyscrapers of New York and heralded the construction of tall buildings in London by helping to loosen height restrictions.
> 
> Listings Minister John Penrose said: “When this building opened it represented the height of sophistication. It remains one of the most unaltered Underground stations on the network and a fantastic example of London's architecture at its best.”
> 
> The site was challenging because of its irregular shape, and the District line was only 24 feet below the surface. The solution was a cross-shaped layout, which allowed passengers to walk through the ground floor of the office to reach the ticket hall. It also incorporated Henry Moore's first public commission and his only work to show the human figure in motion. The building was granted Grade II status in 1970.
> 
> Despite its west wing being damaged in the Second World War, it remains largely unchanged. It has the only Underground concourse with original platform finishes from the Twenties, namely the vitreous enamel cladding to the walls, and enamel signs announcing the name of the station. There are also original platform benches and an original timber kiosk, now a display cabinet. The rest of the building is in a remarkably good state, with the original travertine marble-clad landings on each floor, ground floor lobby, stair hall, and shopping arcade all intact.
> 
> Holden also used a team of emerging young artists to embellish the building, including Eric Gill and Eric Aumonier, as well as Moore and Epstein.
> 
> English Heritage said: “The sculpture significantly boosts the case for upgrading 55 Broadway to Grade I.”


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...de-i-protection-for-st-jamess-tube-station.do


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## rheintram

davidaiow said:


> ^I've noticed more and more people saying, "gotta go catch the train" when they mean tube. It's slightly annoying.


where's the problem? they are trains after all.

I think it's pretty annoying when people use "tube" as a synonym for the underground. Not all lines are tube lines.


----------



## davidaiow

^I know. It's odd isn't it. I tend to think that "train" means mainline (which many people call overground- another annoyance), tube being synonymous with underground (though those who call them trains tend to live further out I've noticed) and overground being the overground. But everyone has their own ideals and I must be less prescriptivist.


----------



## brianlee

Anyone knows whether the Jubilee Line upgrade been completed? I have tried searching on youtube for videos showing the performance of the 1996 stock under high power upgrades but have yet to find one...


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Paul Easton

manrush said:


> Have there been any updates about the London Tramlink?





PortoNuts said:


> I don't think there's a lot going on on that, it's more about Crossrail and Tube refurbishment these days.


It seems someone might have been listening! 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/18051.aspx



> *Proposal for new trams to help boost Croydon's economy*
> 
> 31 January 2011
> 
> Transport for London (TfL) is planning to run more tram services by leasing up to ten new trams for the London Tramlink network that covers Croydon and Wimbledon.
> 
> Companies have been invited to submit proposals to supply the new trams which, subject to funding being confirmed, would increase the frequency of services on the busiest route which runs between central Croydon and Elmers End.
> 
> Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London's Transport Advisor, said: 'Our tram network offers a vital service to south Londoners and we want to make it even easier for passengers to get on board by boosting the frequency of services.
> 
> 'Ever increasing numbers are using the trams and this will help improve their access to jobs, education and leisure facilities in the south of the Capital.'
> 
> Chief Operating Officer for TfL London Rail, Howard Smith said: 'We are pleased to be working with the London Borough of Croydon to try and boost capacity on the London Tramlink network.
> 
> 'Since we took over the network in 2008, we have been improving the service and looking at ways to make it even better.
> 
> 'With the number of journeys increasing by 45 per cent since it opened in 2000 we want to respond to the demand and ensure that London Tramlink continues to provide people in south London with a comfortable and efficient means of getting around.'
> 
> The London Borough of Croydon is intending to be able to contribute to the cost of the trams.
> 
> Croydon Council Leader Mike Fisher said: 'This is looking like a great deal for Croydon and shows the benefits of an ambitious local authority and committed Mayor working together, pooling resources and expertise.
> 
> 'Although we are still to take a final Cabinet decision on our contribution, we believe that there will be real support to get additional trams for Croydon to keep pace with growing demand for Tramlink services and also to secure major improvements for pedestrians and transport users around and between East and West Croydon stations.
> 
> 'Mayor Johnson recognises that extra trams will provide an early answer to capacity issues.'
> 
> Notes to editors:
> 
> * The invitation to bid has been issued in the Official Journal of the European Union as required by EU regulations. Bids will close on 21 February at 12:00. Following this, pre-qualified bidders will be announced, the Invitation to Tender will then be issued, a supplier will be appointed and a contract let. It is hoped the trams will be able to be delivered by the end of summer 2011
> 
> * Tramlink is looking at either new-build or second-hand vehicles that can be modified at reasonable cost to run on the London Tramlink infrastructure
> 
> * Tramlink services have remained relatively static (between 2.4 and 2.7 million km per year) since 2000. However passenger journeys per year have increased by 45 per cent in 10 years. It is predicted the 18.6 million journeys made in 2001/02 will increase to 27.8 million by the end of the 2010/11 period
> 
> * The London Borough of Croydon's funding commitment towards the scheme is scheduled to be confirmed as part of its future Capital programme being considered at its cabinet meeting on 21 February
> 
> * TfL purchased Tramtrack Croydon Ltd in June 2008 when it became London Tramlink. Since then TfL has spent £2m on deep cleaning and refurbishing the tram fleet and tramstops, it has also delivered more than £5m in track upgrades since 2008 to improve reliability


----------



## PortoNuts

Good news then! :applause:


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## poshbakerloo

^^

I hope for the sake of the cameraman he wasn't standing between the coaches?


----------



## poshbakerloo

davidaiow said:


> ^I've noticed more and more people saying, "gotta go catch the train" when they mean tube. It's slightly annoying.


Haha I'm the same! I always say tube! Even if I'm getting the Metropolitan which is the most 'main line' style line.

But something else that annoys me is when people call other networks e.g. Paris metro or NYC Subway 'The tube' The Tube is only for London!!!:bash:


----------



## PortoNuts

poshbakerloo said:


> ^^
> 
> I hope for the sake of the cameraman he wasn't standing between the coaches?


Well, he apparently is...


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Metropolitan Line is Tube's 'least reliable' *
> 
> THE Metropolitan Line is London Underground's least reliable line as statistics provided to the London Assembly show just 87.22 per cent of services completed their journey during morning peak times in November 2010.
> 
> Of the 1,315 scheduled services, 168 were cancelled: 28 due to a signal failure, 88 because there were no decent trains available and 33 for other reasons within Transport for London's control.
> 
> Only two cancellations were due to circumstances out of TfL's control, such as the weather, although curiously this category accounted for a much lower percentage than in warmer August.


http://www.harrowobserver.co.uk/wes...ine-is-tube-s-least-reliable-116451-28092893/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




----------



## Wilhem275

It's surely an act of kindness, but I'm not sure it has to be so mandatory as for non-English speaking countries.

English is used in secondary PAs not for a sort of favour towards the Queen  but because it is accepted worldwide as a common language.

I can understand secondary PAs in other languages in areas where there is a strong presence of a cultural minorance.
In the Genoa area some local TVs broadcast their news in Spanish, too, due to the presence of many South American people. And there's nothing wrong about it, indeed


----------



## carto.metro

Hello,

As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/

enjoy !


----------



## Tubeman

carto.metro said:


> Hello,
> 
> As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
> http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/
> 
> enjoy !


Great work 

You're a man after my own heart (check my signature!)

What software do you use?


----------



## Pansori

Wow this is cool stuff, carto.metro. Sometimes I wonder "where that track goes?" but cannot check it anywhere. Now it will be easy.


----------



## Rachmaninov

carto.metro said:


> Hello,
> 
> As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
> http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/
> 
> enjoy !


Great work mate - Cheers for that!!

You happen to have any background map from the ordnance survey? If you do, would you mind overlaying this on top of the map?


----------



## davidaiow

That is *fantastic*. Thanks so much! It explains why I've always felt the exposed bits of the Met line should have been stations- it's because they used to be! Thank you!


----------



## makita09

Brilliant! + bookmarked


----------



## RedArkady

Tubeman said:


> Great work
> 
> You're a man after my own heart (check my signature!)
> 
> What software do you use?


Tubeman, you're going to have to assassinate this guy or your book sales are kaput!


----------



## carto.metro

RedArkady said:


> Tubeman, you're going to have to assassinate this guy or your book sales are kaput!


I don't know this book, but i'm sure it's interresting 



Tubeman said:


> What software do you use?


Mostly inkscape !


----------



## Tubeman

RedArkady said:


> Tubeman, you're going to have to assassinate this guy or your book sales are kaput!


Nah, mine is all LU + NR + DLR + Tram with all closed lines & stations and dates of opening / closing of everything... Much more detailed


----------



## Tubeman

carto.metro said:


> Mostly inkscape !


Thanks... I use Microsoft Office Visio, I'm sure it's not really what it's intended for, but I get the desired results


----------



## PortoNuts

carto.metro said:


> Hello,
> 
> As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
> http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/
> 
> enjoy !


Really cool, thanks for posting.:cheers:


----------



## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## Accura4Matalan

carto.metro said:


> Hello,
> 
> As for other cities, I have made the full London transport tracks map (underground, overground & DLR)
> http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/
> 
> enjoy !


Excellent map! Looking at it, I've noticed that the track into Aldwych is still active despite the platforms being closed. Do any trains still use that section?


----------



## carto.metro

Accura4Matalan said:


> Excellent map! Looking at it, I've noticed that the track into Aldwych is still active despite the platforms being closed. Do any trains still use that section?


The section is closed since 1994 but it still "usable" (and used for special events), that is why it remains in "plain" line.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Tubeman

carto.metro said:


> The section is closed since 1994 but it still "usable" (and used for special events), that is why it remains in "plain" line.


Its primary use is for filming work; an ex-Northern Line 1972 MkI Train (one unit, so half a train really) is stored on the branch and driven in and out of Aldwych platform as filming work requires. The horror film 'Creep' made heavy use of it.

The other two very commonly used locations are East Finchley (middle two platforms in / out of Highgate Wood Depot) and Charing Cross on the Jubilee Line (ceased to be regularly used when the line was extended).

Almost all appearances of the Tube on TV / film are at one of these three locations.


----------



## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

edit


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Offenders scrub London Tube in time for royal wedding*
> 
> *A group of offenders will be scrubbing Tube tunnels in Westminster in an attempt to get them gleaming in time for the royal wedding. Hyde Park Corner Tube station is being cleaned up following complaints, some dating back four years, about its condition.*
> 
> All five pedestrian tunnels will be cleaned as part of London Probation Trust's community payback scheme. It is hoped the station will be ready in time for the wedding on 29 April.
> 
> Ravi Kumar, the Westminster Warden for Knightsbridge and Belgravia, approached Westminster Council and London Underground to organise the work. Mr Kumar covers issues from waste dumping to illegal street trading and said complaints about the condition of the pedestrian walkways dated back up to four years.
> 
> "It was becoming a real headache as we didn't want people seeing the state of the subway when they arrived in London," he added. "The tunnels do get cleaned every night but they were in need of some real elbow grease. I went down myself with a bit of wire sponge and had a scrub and it really made a difference so I thought doing it manually would be our best option."
> 
> The group will work throughout April, sectioning off one side of a tunnel at a time to allow pedestrians to continue to use the walkways. Westminster Council's cabinet member for city management councillor Ed Argar said the scheme was a "great example of how those that cause problems for society can give something back to the community.
> 
> "We know come 29 April the eyes of the world will be upon us and we want to make sure the city offers the best environment possible."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12725790


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Transforming The Transport Topography Of London *
> 
> *Harry Beck’s iconic London Underground maps are rightly considered a triumph of user design. His electrical circuit-inspired mapping abstracted time and distance out of the underground, in order to make the map most legible for its users.*
> 
> Tom Carden’s mapping allows users to return one of those elements back into the map by transforming it’s temporal topography. Co.Design reports:
> 
> 'His website lets you select a station of your choosing as the starting point and then it rearranges all the other nodes on London’s underground transport network relative to the travel time taken to get from your starting point to them.'
> 
> This reinjection of time into the underground allows for a completely different consideration of the subterranean transport space. It arguably provides a map more commensurate with the experience of navigating the vast distances covered by London’s subway system. Tom’s website currently works with static data so there is exciting potential were it to merge with real-time TFL (Transport for London) data.


http://www.psfk.com/2011/03/transforming-the-transport-topography-of-london.html#


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## PortoNuts




----------



## davidaiow

If like me you like stats about this sort of thing, check out this:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/modesoftransport/tube/performance/default.asp?onload=entryexit


----------



## Tubeman

Sad news today, District Dave passed away this morning while waiting for heart surgery. One of the most knowledgeable men on earth of London Underground, and one of the nicest guys you could ever wish to meet.


----------



## RedArkady

Tubeman said:


> Sad news today, District Dave passed away this morning while waiting for heart surgery. One of the most knowledgeable men on earth of London Underground, and one of the nicest guys you could ever wish to meet.


Oh man, that's sad news. I only discovered his site a year or so ago, but it was always a wealth of good information and interesting discussion. A lot of people owe him a lot. Doffed cap.


----------



## PortoNuts

That's sad news indeed, RIP.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




----------



## cslusarc

PortoNuts said:


>


TfL has now made this video private and removed the video from public circulation. Can anyone recap what he was talking about? Where was this message filmed?


----------



## PortoNuts

sotonsi said:


> That's a far less OTT solution than 24h trains during the games.


I suppose if they ran a 24-hour service during the Olympics many people would question why they don't do it during the rest of the year and say London has enough demand for that even without the Olympics.


----------



## sotonsi

Given most of the Olympic bid literature said that it wouldn't bother the tube network, as it's August and demand even with the Olympics would be lower than January and February but that they'd prioritize upgrades that serve the Olympic Park anyway then 'even without the Olympics' is quite frankly a load of rubbish. I'm fairly certain that demand for 24h trains would be higher at other times of year, even _with_ the Olympics.

It would be a near impossibility to give 2 weeks of 24h running and if they tried it, they wouldn't have had to explain why they don't do it normally - they'd be trying to explain which muppet had the idea that made the network more dangerous and less reliable, not to mention inducing the inevitable industrial action that just wound Londoners up.

24h trains during the Olympics would be a vanity project like Leslie Ash's lip enhancement (they wouldn't look very good, backfiring immensly). Glad that all they are doing is extending services later.


----------



## PortoNuts

I think if they had the possibility of running a 24 hour service for 2 weeks they could do that for the rest of the year and would have done it already. Anyway, I think the improvements are much more important than the 24 hour service.


----------



## Rachmaninov

Boris doing Tai-chi

So they're planning for a wifi network with no phone reception? Does that mean we'll have to Skype while on the tube? :lol:


----------



## Tubeman

Rachmaninov said:


> Boris doing Tai-chi
> 
> So they're planning for a wifi network with no phone reception? Does that mean we'll have to Skype while on the tube? :lol:


Exactly... or Viber

Those app writers must be rubbing their hands with glee


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Tube proposals 'could boost service for commuters'*
> 
> *Proposals have been announced to create a new timetable for one of the busiest sections on the Tube network. Transport for London (TfL) reveals that passengers on the District line could enjoy a more reliable service if the journey is rerouted and five additional trains are added during morning peak travel times.*
> 
> It claims that London Underground (LU) hopes to simplify the service in the Earl's Court area by removing weekday journeys to Kensington Olympia as this is used by less than one per cent of all people on the District Line. The service could then be redirected to Wimbledon - which receives 30 per cent of the line's traffic - and increase the number of trains running during early peak times by 12 per cent.
> 
> During the weekends, journeys to Olympia would be resumed and LU hopes that this new timetable can be in place by December of this year. Additional London Overground services will be in place from May at Kensington Olympia.
> 
> Meanwhile, TfL has published its business plan, detailing the biggest investment in the capital's transport infrastructure for 80 years.


http://www.trl.co.uk/trl-news-hub/t...uld-boost-service-for-commuters_800484584.htm


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## PortoNuts




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## iampuking

Unfourtunately, all the photos of it on flickr are disabled.

*Stratford Station Mezzanine Ticket Hall*

Opened: 19th of March, 2011.

Built to ease congestion from the existing ticket hall, and to allow increased patronage for the 2012 Olympics, as Stratford is the nearest station to the venue. This ticket hall interestingly also reused the ticket barriers from the old Jubilee line ticket hall which was taken out recently.


----------



## PortoNuts

I think there was something a while back about this new ticket all at Stratford, let's hope there's pics soon.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *London Underground game Chromaroma to make commute more bearable*
> 
> *An Oyster card public transport travel game, called Chromaroma, has been launched, which hopes to transform the daily commute on the Tube from a somewhat hellish experience into a fun-packed joyride. *
> 
> Over the years there have been many potential solutions put forward in order to help long-suffering travellers on London's public transport - the majority of which usually consisted of more track, more trains and a general increase in in efficiency; little did we know that the true answer laid elsewhere.
> 
> The new multiplayer game from developers Mudlark works by showing your movements and location through your Oyster card's RFID chip, picking up more data the more you swipe it in order to gain access to buses, trains, and the new Boris bikes.
> 
> Every journey will give you points, and the more ways you travel and the more of the city you cover, the more chance you'll have of "owning London". It'll also offer the chance of connecting with other commuters you cross paths with regularly.
> 
> The developers describe Chromaroma as "location-based top-trumps", where you can "collect places, identities, modes of transport and passengers as you travel around the city; discover and investigate mysteries attached to different locations and build alliances with fellow passengers that share your journeys.
> 
> There are apparently a variety of benefits to be had by registering your Oyster card, such as prizes and Foursquare-esque accolades linked to various advertisers; however, this will no doubt mean you'll also be sharing your info with them.


http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/39457/london-underground-game-chromaroma-commute#


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## SO143

LU looks so crowded, is there any plan for air-condition? Do you know anything about it?


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## PortoNuts

^^The new stock has air conditioning as far as I know. As for being crowded, well it's like that, which doesn't mean they couldn't improve frequencies.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## mayflower232

Just a quick note on Buckhurst Hill station on the Central Line. Perhaps LU noticed my moaning on the state of this station last month as they have now started renovating the classic victorian station. So far they have started re-painting and plastering the walkways down to the station, however im not sure if they are going to go on and do the rest of the metalwork on the platforms, along with the victorian waiting rooms and toilets.

Some of the brickwork is in a dire state, I hope they do something about it.


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## PortoNuts

^^They have been giving a scrub to several stations.


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## SO143

Thanks Porto i didn't know that London gets those new trains, they look pretty clean and quiet too


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Bombardier gets in line to upgrade London Tube*
> 
> *A WING of Belfast-based Bombardier has been named as the preferred bidder for the single biggest piece of work to upgrade the London Underground. The work is aimed at offering faster, more reliable trains, more often, on the Circle, District, Hammersmith -amp; City and Metropolitan lines.*
> 
> The upgrade will deliver 65% more capacity on the Circle and Hammersmith -amp; City Lines, 27% on the Metropolitan and 24% on the District. The news came amid more travel disruption on the London Underground.
> 
> Services on the Victoria, Jubilee and Piccadilly Lines were hit because of problems including faulty trains following disruption on the District Line which hit travellers on their way home from work earlier in the week.
> 
> London Underground managing director Mike Brown said: "This is a major step forward in our plan to upgrade the Tube and will mean faster, more frequent and reliable Tube services for Londoners.
> 
> "We insisted that those bidding for this contract found innovative ways to deliver the new signalling system without the need for the level of closures we have seen on other lines, and I'm pleased Bombardier have committed to that." Bombardier, which manufactures planes and trains, is headquartered in Montreal, Canada and has based part of the Bombardier Aerospace division is based in east Belfast.
> 
> Bombardier Transportation has 59 production and engineering sites in 23 countries and more than 40 service centres across the world.


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/b...-in-line-to-upgrade-london-tube-15141800.html


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## M II A II R II K

What about adding Automatic Train Control...


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## Tubeman

M II A II R II K said:


> What about adding Automatic Train Control...


They are


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## PortoNuts

As you probably know, he thinks automatic train control = driverless trains.


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## SO143

I guess he is referring to the trains like DLR, no?


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## PortoNuts

Yes, driverless trains. I think the system would lose charisma though (not to talk about kobs) and I suppose most people would like an human in charge of the train.


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## M II A II R II K

They could always have drivers sitting in the train in case something went wrong. But the main reason for ATC is to have more efficient and increased frequencies.


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## Axelferis

Bombardier? it means new cars? Because they are so smaaalllll :drool:
or narrow...


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## PortoNuts

M II A II R II K said:


> They could always have drivers sitting in the train in case something went wrong. But the main reason for ATC is to have more efficient and increased frequencies.


As far as I know, Tube trains have had Automatic Train Control since the 1960s.


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## PortoNuts




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## SO143

Last time when i took DLR to Beckton station, i didn't see any driver there


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## PortoNuts

Yes but that's the DLR, it was originally planned to be driverless.


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## makita09

M II A II R II K said:


> They could always have drivers sitting in the train in case something went wrong. But the main reason for ATC is to have more efficient and increased frequencies.


Yes which which is why they are doing it. Keep up.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## SO143

A lot of videos


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## SO143

*Pressure mounts on London Underground as wedding approaches*



> The Chair of the London Assembly Transport Committee has written to the Mayor of London asking for a detailed explanation for the severe disruption on the Jubilee Line this week.
> 
> The Committee is also seeking assurances that Transport for London (TfL) has taken steps to prevent further disruption and ensure the delivery of the Jubilee line upgrade as promised by June 2011.
> 
> Given the number of high profile events in London over the coming months, Royal Wedding, Champions League Final and London Olympics, there is mounting pressure on the quality of the underground transport system.
> 
> “Yet again Jubilee Line passengers have experienced severe delays and discomfort as they are forced to struggle to and from work," Val Shawcross AM, Chair of the Transport Committee, said.
> 
> “The nature and increasing frequency of these incidents raises serious questions about the ability of TfL and its contractors to ensure this key Olympic transport link is ready to cope with demand during the 2012 Games.”


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## SO143

*Royal wedding: special edition Oyster card available*



> A special edition Oyster Card has gone on sale to mark next week's royal wedding.
> 
> The electronic smartcard used on London's public transport system features a portrait of the couple and the wedding date of 29 April 2011.
> 
> About 750,000 royal wedding Oyster cards will be available from all London Underground and London Overground stations.
> 
> The cards were launched in 2003 and now have more than seven million users.
> 
> The £5 deposit and £5 minimum top-up will apply as normal for the limited edition card.
> 
> National Rail customers will only be able to get the limited edition card at stations where they can currently get an Oyster card.
> 
> 'Fabulous memento'
> The marriage of William's parents, the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer, in 1981 was also marked by the transport authority of the day with a special ticket.
> 
> Peter Hendy, London's Transport Commissioner, said: "London's transport network will play a key role in helping people travel to the wedding celebrations, so it is appropriate that we commemorate the day with a limited edition Oyster card.
> 
> "This is the first time we have produced a limited edition Oyster card and I'm sure they will be a hugely popular souvenir of the day while ensuring Londoners and visitors get the cheapest fares for their journeys."
> 
> Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said the commemorative Oyster card was a "fabulous memento" of the wedding for both Londoners and visitors.
> 
> "I would also recommend the card to the happy couple as the cheapest, easiest way of getting around this city, especially as it bears their resemblance," he said.


----------



## PortoNuts

The wedding will be nothing compared to the Olympics, they should worry about that more.


----------



## sotonsi

The Wedding, however is this Friday, just after this weekend's widespread engineering works and just before next weekend's widespread engineering works (we love a good Bank Holiday weekend to close down a ton of the system). Likewise, being on a 4-day weekend means that lots of people will be travelling on it during the day. It's much more pressing matter, and with less planning and a lot more opportunity for things to go wrong beforehand and not be fixed (you normally have at least one hiccup after a mass of engineering works, delaying the opening of a line, and this would be three-days before the wedding).

I'd also argue that more people will be using the tube on Friday than will use it on any day next-August - there's more people around, the traffic will be less focussed on one destination, though large numbers will want to travel to the Westminister area (but heh, that's fairly common, protest marches and such like). This Friday is a different sort of problem than the Olympics, which they've had 7 years notice (and it being planned out in the bid documents before then) for, rather than 10 weeks.

Reading that Press Release, it seems that they are too worried about the Olympics and aren't thinking short term about keeping a robust service - the upgrades 'must' be done a whole 14 months before the Olympics to make sure that it's all fine next summer as little things like Royal Weddings and Cup finals. The Jubilee line has been having problems recently, and will be under more pressure this Friday with the Wedding at Westminister, and in a couple of weeks with the Champions League final at Wembley (not to mention the FA Cup and play off finals).


----------



## davidaiow

Can I make a suggestion, could all the video posts be edited instead of created to save having to scroll through many many new posts. Am I being a little selfish?

Hope I didn't offend.


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## PortoNuts

@sotonsi: it's still only one day, whereas the Olympics will last for 2 weeks and the number of passengers will probably increase as days go on because the finals are usually the most sought after events.


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## PortoNuts




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## Davodavo

I was just wondering:
When using your Oyster card, once you have spent more than 8 pounds per card and day, they won't charge you anything if you go on traveling, right? 

I mean, once you've spent that amount of money, your Oyster becomes a one-day Travelcard, am I right?

Cheers :cheers:


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## SO143

Hey Porto!! do you know which LU line got new trains/carriages?


----------



## sotonsi

PortoNuts said:


> @sotonsi: it's still only one day, whereas the Olympics will last for 2 weeks and the number of passengers will probably increase as days go on because the finals are usually the most sought after events.


I think you didn't read my post properly - Friday is likely to see more traffic than _any_ day during the Olympics (which is a whole month if you add the Paraolympics), simply as the Olympic bid basically said "It's in August, traffic numbers are down anyway, the Olympics will bring them back up to regular amounts and focus them on Stratford, so we'll make sure the planned Jubilee and Central line upgrades happen by then just to make sure that we can cope, which we should be able to anyway". And you ignore that Friday is Friday, rather than 16 months away, wasn't a lot of notice given and sandwiched between engineering works. The complaints going "make sure the tube is working for the Wedding" were because the Jubilee had some problems last week, as they rush to get the line done with 14 months to spare before the Olympics.

I think that you are a little obsessed with the Olympics and getting everything sorted - it was pretty much sorted a few years ago and the works on the tube are more to make the tube remain adequate for everyday usage in the years to come, but those that serve the area around the Olympic Park got prioritized to make sure London looks good.


----------



## Tubeman

SO143 said:


> Hey Porto!! do you know which LU line got new trains/carriages?


In order of new-ness... Note that the year normally denotes the year of the prototype, so in reality the trains are newer than the year suggests (more than 5 years in some cases).

S8 stock (Metropolitan Line) - Delivery phase still
2009 Stock (Victoria Line) - Delivery phase still (complete this Summer)
1996 Stock (Jubilee Line)
1995 Stock (Northern Line)
1992 Stock (Central Line)
D78 Stock (District Line) - 1978
C77 Stock (Circle, H&C, and District Lines) - 1977
1973 Stock (Piccadilly Line)
1972 MkII Stock (Bakerloo Line)
1967 Stock (Victoria Line) - Will be withdrawn by this Summer
C69 Stock (Circle, H&C, and District Lines) - 1969
A60 Stock (Metropolitan Line) - 1960

All trains before the 1992 Stock have been refurbished, the 1992 Stock refurb program is just starting. When the A60 fleet have been replaced by S8, S7 will start delivery to replace the C69 / C77 then finally the D78, leaving the Bakerloo 1972 MkII as the oldest trains.


----------



## PortoNuts

@sotonsi: I understand your point of view, it's okay. kay:


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *London Turns Subway Commuting Into a Game*
> 
> *Regular commuters on London's Underground rail network have now got a new incentive for keeping their journeys short: a social network that turns the Tube into a game. It's called Chromaroma, and it's easy to play.*
> 
> Pretty much everyone in London already has an Oyster card - an RFID-enabled smart card that they can top up with credit, and use to travel anywhere by Tube or bus. It's the cheapest and most convenient way of getting around.
> 
> Now the people in charge of Oyster have opened up access to travel data, and Chromaroma is a result.
> 
> When you sign up, you can choose whether to join the Red, Green, Blue or Yellow team. Your team gets points for swiping Oyster cards at Tube stations. Swipes mean points, and points mean rewards. Teams can win and lose ownership of stations.
> 
> Regular players might even be tempted to break one of the Tube's greatest taboos, and talk to strangers on trains, in the hope of recruiting new members for their team. You never know. There's much more to it than that, though. Delve deeper and you'll find time trials, extra missions (for your team or just for you) as well as incentives for taking healthy options like walking some of the way instead.
> 
> Could Chromaroma change the way Londoners commute? Possibly, but it's going to need some co-operation from the city's employers first. Saying "Sorry I'm late, I had to check in for my Chromaroma points," probably isn't going to go down well as an excuse for being late for work. Unless your boss plays the game too, of course...


http://techland.time.com/2011/04/25/london-turns-subway-commuting-into-a-game/


----------



## SO143

@Tubeman thanks for this perfect answer. I hope 2009 Stock (Victoria Line) will have air conditioning


----------



## RedArkady

It doesn't, though the carriages have better air flow. There's no room for air con in the deep tunnel lines.


----------



## CityGent

PortoNuts said:


> London Turns Subway Commuting Into a Game


So it's Mornington Crescent then? Hope they've got the correct rules built into the app.


----------



## PortoNuts

Well, Mornington Crescent is a much older game but they certainly took some inspiration from it.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## iampuking

SO143 said:


> @Tubeman thanks for this perfect answer. I hope 2009 Stock (Victoria Line) will have air conditioning


Hope? The 2009 Stock have been in service for over a year now... In fact two days ago was the first time the entire Victoria line service was operated by them!


----------



## PortoNuts

iampuking said:


> In fact two days ago was the first time the entire Victoria line service was operated by them!


Is the replacement complete then? If so, such great news.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Travel advice for the Royal Wedding*
> 
> 
> A large number of people are expected in central London on Friday for the Royal Wedding celebrations so TFL have issued some travel advice.
> 
> London's transport commissioner Peter Hendy, said: "We are working with our partners to ensure that everyone can get around safely and easily, and that people not involved with the celebrations can continue to move around the city with the minimum of disruption.
> 
> "All Tube lines will be running and our bus and streets teams will be working flat-out to make sure that the closures and diversions needed are managed smoothly. The whole of TfL is focussed on helping to ensure that a great day is had by all."
> 
> The following travel information is being given to those coming to the area or intending to travel through central London on the day:
> 
> ..
> 
> *Tube *
> 
> All Tube lines will be running, with no planned engineering work affecting services during the day.
> 
> All of the stations close to the route of the procession will be open on the day, including Embankment, Charing Cross, Waterloo, Westminster, Hyde Park Corner and Green Park.
> 
> The lifts at Green Park are currently being refurbished and will not be available on the day. The nearest station with a lift is Westminster. Watford and Croxley stations will not have a train service after 8pm on the evening, although replacement buses will operate.
> 
> A queuing system will be in place for access to London Underground station at Victoria. A similar system may be in place for access to the Network Rail station at Charing Cross.
> 
> ...


http://www.wharf.co.uk/2011/04/travel-advice-for-the-royal-we.html


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## ajw373

PortoNuts said:


> Is the replacement complete then? If so, such great news.


Not yet, still a few more to go.


----------



## PortoNuts

Hopefully so, rolling stock is probably the 'heart' of the Tube system.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *London transport braced for Royal Wedding crowds*
> 
> *Huge crowds are expected to make their way into the centre of London tomorrow to catch a glimpse of Kate and William as they tie the knot and generally get involved in the celebrations planned for the big day.*
> 
> In preparation for this, Transport for London has been working with the government, the police and Westminster Council to make sure that the capital’s transport system will run as smoothly as possible.
> 
> Peter Hendy, commissioner for transport, said travel systems would work flat out to ensure that everyone coming to the event would be able to do so with the minimum amount of fuss. He also assured those going about their everyday business that they would be able to do so with minimum disruption.
> 
> The London Underground will be running a Saturday service, but all lines will be open. All tube stations will also be open, including those which are close to the route the couple will take between Westminster and the Palace. There are however likely to be some delays at Victoria where the authorities plan to operate a queuing system. London Underground has also said it will close stations if overcrowding poses a danger.
> 
> A number of roads around the route of the royal procession will be closed to traffic or have parking restrictions applied. The procession route which includes the Mall, Whitehall, Parliament Square and Horse Guard’s will also be closed as of 5.30am.
> 
> Transport bosses have promised to open all routes as soon as possible following the procession, but motorists are being advised not to venture into the centre of London on Friday.


http://www.comparecarhire.co.uk/news/london-transport-braced-for-royal-wedding-crowds-53827179.html


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## mrmoopt

PortoNuts said:


> Well, Mornington Crescent is a much older game but they certainly took some inspiration from it.


More like a RFID version of FourSquare


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## SO143

London Underground - canon 550d London by doug88888, on Flickr


Tube London Underground Bond Street by rwbthatisme, on Flickr


London Underground by Kate & Paul, on Flickr


London Underground - Liverpool Street Station by Jeff Xia, on Flickr


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## Nouvellecosse

Why was the East London Line converted to Overground?


----------



## sotonsi

to enable it to run south of New Cross Gate easier and to make it that the Overground will form a box around London.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## SO143

London Underground A by neiljaxx, on Flickr


London's Paddington Train Station in HDR by ZedZaP, on Flickr


Going Underground, Waterloo, London by 7point1, on Flickr


Knightsbridge Underground station by bowroaduk, on Flickr


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## SO143




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## PortoNuts

Really cool. :cheers2:


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## PortoNuts

> *Jubilee line upgrade nearing completion*
> 
> *Work to upgrade the Jubilee line in order to provide a faster and more flexible service to commuters continues to gather pace, with plans to close parts of the line over the next two months.*
> 
> Transport for London (TfL) reports that this will be the final series of weekend closures that are scheduled in order to get more trains running from July.
> 
> The dates will primarily affect the northern end of the line between West Hampstead and Stanmore and once the work is complete it is hoped that 5,000 more commuters will be able to use the service every hour.
> 
> London Underground Managing Director Mike Brown said: "We know this upgrade has often been difficult and I'd like to thank Londoners and Jubilee line customers for their patience as we approach this final milestone." The closures will take place at weekends between Sunday 15 May and Sunday 26 June.
> 
> Record numbers of people are currently using Tube services, with TfL recently reporting that 42 million more people took this form of transport during the financial year ending March 31st 2011 than the previous 12 months.


http://www.trl.co.uk/trl-news-hub/t...line-upgrade-nearing-completion_800516836.htm


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## SO143

PortoNuts said:


>


New trains? 

I feel like this thing is , newer faster, bigger and cleaner too compared to Piccadilly line trains (IMO)

What is the fastest line in LU, you know?


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## sotonsi

The Met is the fastest line, though that's more as there's space out in the sticks for the trains to reach top-speed (though A-stock is speed limited to 50mph due to age) before having to slow down for the next station. Most LU trains have the same top-speed, though I think S-stock might be a bit faster, but limited.

The new S-stock trains are smaller than the old A-stock ones (mostly as S-stock will have to navigate the currently C- and D-stock lines that aren't as generous with gauge, but also as A stock has the largest profile of any train in Britain), though are more spacious, with less seats, the walk-through carriages and so on.

Being new, newer and cleaner are givens when comparing trains on the Piccadilly to S-stock. As S-stock is for surface gauge, not tube-gauge, lines they are going to be bigger as there's no point in making trains smaller than they have to be.


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## PortoNuts

Thanks for the explanation sotonsi, I wouldn't give such a detailed one.


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## SO143

Cheers *sotosi*, Thanks for your perfect information


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## PortoNuts

^^That's more appropriate in the other thread.


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## SO143

I see, i didn't realised they are different types of trains


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Battersea Northern Line extension plans go on show*
> 
> *TRANSPORT FOR LONDON has launched a consultation today over plans to extend the Northern Line from Kennington to Nine Elms and Battersea. The privately-funded 3km line would provide an important link to a regeneration area in south London.*
> 
> TfL said the new infrastructure, which could be complete by 2017, would support up to 25,000 jobs and 16,000 new homes in the major redevelopment area around the old power station as well as easing pressure on existing Underground and National Rail stations, particularly Vauxhall.
> 
> If the extension goes ahead two new stations would be created, one at Nine Elms and one at Battersea.
> 
> Around 40,000 leaflets are being sent to homes and offices in the surrounding area asking people for their views on the project, the location of stations and other infrastructure associated with the extension. Local people can also find out more about the proposals at exhibitions being held on several days in May and June.
> 
> The Mayor of London Boris Johnson gave the go-ahead for the redevelopment of Battersea Power Station last year. The construction of the extension will depend on funding from the developers Treasury Holdings, and the award of a Transport and Works Act Order by the Secretary of State.
> 
> In the first stage of the public consultation, in 2010, local residents were asked by Treasury Holdings to comment on four possible routes for the line, all from Kennington to Battersea. One included an interchange at Vauxhall, but the preferred option was a route via south Nine Elms.
> 
> London Mayor Boris Johnson said: "The iconic Battersea Power Station and its surrounding area have lain dormant too long but the incredible potential of the area could be realised by a privately funded extension of the Tube. I hope local people will visit the exhibitions and respond to the consultation as the plans have the potential to transform this part of London into a thriving new quarter, and deliver the first expansion of the Northern Line for around 70 years."
> 
> Rob Tincknell, who is managing director of Treasury Holdings, said: "The extension of the Northern Line is recognised as necessary for the full regeneration of the Nine Elms Opportunity Area. The project to make this happen is an excellent example of how the public and private sectors have come together to achieve a set of shared objectives, all aimed at integrating this area into the rest of Central London and bringing real benefits to everyone who lives in this part of London and beyond."


http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/metro/2011/05/09-battersea-northern-line-extension-plans.html


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## lafreak84

When are they going to invest in major Tube expansion in the neglected south (SE to SW)? Those areas need Tube connections badly. I don't understand why the Northern line? Is this going to be a new branch from Kennington to Battersea (over Nine Elms)?


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## PortoNuts

lafreak84 said:


> When are they going to invest in major Tube expansion in the neglected south (SE to SW)? Those areas need Tube connections badly. I don't understand why the Northern line? Is this going to be a new branch from Kennington to Battersea (over Nine Elms)?


It makes all sense to me. What's the point of building a major residential complex as part of the Battersea project without proper transport connections? Besides, the new US Embassy will be built in the Nine Elms area.


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## lafreak84

But why the Northern line? Why not Victoria from Pimlico to Battersea or better yet Central from Clapham Junction to Nine Elms and possible future connection to Kennington (Northern)? I'd like to know the reason behind the decision because it doesn't make sense to me as it is. 

Or why not invest in expanding current lines and perhaps new W2E line in the south because Croydon is the only city in south London that has Tube connections. Extending Northern from Mordon to Epsom would be much more useful because Stockwell which serves both Northern and Victoria is 10min walk from Nine Elms, same for Clapham to Battersea, even less than 10min.


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## Teach

> Why not Victoria from Pimlico to Battersea


The Victoria line is already overcrowded as it is. Adding more stations, and thus more passengers onto that doesn't sound like a good idea.



> or better yet Central from Clapham Junction to Nine Elms


The Central Line comes nowhere near Clapham Junction, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Realistic choices were between extending the Victoria Line or the Northern. Extending the Victoria was not withheld for the reasons stated before (overcrowding) while extending the Nothern gives a faster and easier connection to the financial district (Bank).


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## PortoNuts

Besides, the US Embassy project will include residential buildings and with the housing shortage in London, you can expect a lot of people in the area. Underground links are essential and with a connection to such a central location, I don't know how it could be better.


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## PortoNuts

> *Consultations set on Underground extension*
> 
> *A privately funded extension of London Underground’s Northern Line to Battersea has the potential to unlock the area’s “incredible potential”, Boris Johnson, the London mayor, said on Monday as he launched public consultations on the project.*
> 
> The extension would take the line, parts of which date back to 1890, 3km from Kennington in south London through Vauxhall and Nine Elms to the redeveloped Battersea Power Station site on the south side of the Thames. The work could be complete by 2017, according to Transport for London.
> 
> The network’s last extension took the Piccadilly Line to Heathrow airport’s new Terminal 5 in 2008. The last major extension was the Jubilee Line from Green Park to Stratford in 1999. Mr Johnson said the power station and its surrounding area had lain dormant too long but that the new route could realise their potential.
> 
> The new route would be funded by Treasury Holdings, the developer working on the site of the famous brown brick power station designed by Sir Giles Gilbert Scott. It is intended to improve public transport access to the development area along the Thames’s south bank, which is intended eventually to include 16,000 homes and provide 25,000 jobs. The line is expected to take trains arriving at Kennington from London’s West End, which mostly currently run around a loop and back towards the west end, on to Battersea.
> 
> Consultations will run until June 17 and will be backed by a series of meetings and exhibitions in the affected areas.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a9517e3a-7a59-11e0-af64-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1LyWMxQ20


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## Acemcbuller

lafreak84 said:


> But why the Northern line? Why not Victoria from Pimlico to Battersea or better yet Central from Clapham Junction to Nine Elms and possible future connection to Kennington (Northern)? I'd like to know the reason behind the decision because it doesn't make sense to me as it is.
> 
> Or why not invest in expanding current lines and perhaps new W2E line in the south because Croydon is the only city in south London that has Tube connections. Extending Northern from Mordon to Epsom would be much more useful because Stockwell which serves both Northern and Victoria is 10min walk from Nine Elms, same for Clapham to Battersea, even less than 10min.


There's a thread for the Northern Line extension.


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## PortoNuts

Battersea will the terminus if this proposal goes ahead right?


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## spongeg

this is from the 70's - from a book about using the tube to see the tourist sites


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## PortoNuts

Fantastic! Is it yours?


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## spongeg

yes in my collection of souvenirs i have the whole book - i am sure the map has changed a wee bit since than


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## davidaiow

It was only relatively recently that I realised that the current Jubilee line used to be a part of the bakerloo. It's great to see it in a map. It also explains Baker Street's great interchange.


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## lightrail

lafreak84 said:


> But why the Northern line? Why not Victoria from Pimlico to Battersea or better yet Central from Clapham Junction to Nine Elms and possible future connection to Kennington (Northern)? I'd like to know the reason behind the decision because it doesn't make sense to me as it is.
> 
> Or why not invest in expanding current lines and perhaps new W2E line in the south because Croydon is the only city in south London that has Tube connections. Extending Northern from Mordon to Epsom would be much more useful because Stockwell which serves both Northern and Victoria is 10min walk from Nine Elms, same for Clapham to Battersea, even less than 10min.


Extending the Northern Line makes a lot of sense. To understand why, you need to understand the layout at Kennington. There used to be two tube lines, the Great Northern and the Hamstead Tube. There are four platforms at Kennington - the two middle platforms serve the Northern Line via City branch, the two outer platforms serve the Northern Line via Charing Cross branch - these last two platforms are connected by a large radius loop so trains can turn around without reversing.

The extension to Nine Elms would involve new tunnels branching off this loop - so essentially all trains from the Charing Cross branch would run to Nine Elms, instead of terminating at Kennington or running down to Morden.

Here's a drawing of Kennington Station looking south. The southbound tunnel to Nine Elms would branch off from the return loop (near trhe end of the word "...Trains") with the northbound tunnel joining to the right. This would fit nicely with TFL plans to split the Northern Line (Nine-Elms to Edgeware (Hampstead Line?) and Morden to High Barnett and Mill Hill East (Great Northern Line) once they solve capacity issues at Camden Town for interchanging passengers.








Source: Husk.org


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## PortoNuts

What a fantastic sketch! :cheers2:


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## PortoNuts




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## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> What a fantastic sketch! :cheers2:


It's interesting that LU evidently used to use 'up' and 'down' to label lines, as NR still do today. I don't really know how it would have worked... As London-centric as it sounds, on NR 'up' denotes the London-bound track and 'down' the country-bound track... Easy to remember as "Up to London, down to the country"... but by very nature every LU line traverses London, so a line which is heading into London ends up heading out of London further down the line so I don't understand how they were labelled unless they switched from 'up' to 'down' or vice versa at a point in Central London.

In this diagram the Morden-bound platforms are labelled 'down' and London-bound 'up' as you'd expect... but at East Finchley there was a junction between the Northern Line and the former GNR branches to Edgware and High Barnet, where if the northbound track remained 'up', it would be joining the 'down' BR track at East Finchley which is an anomaly.

This is why LU uses westbound / eastbound / northbound / southbound and not up / down today. I wonder when it changed and how it used to work?


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## PortoNuts

Underground lines are completely horizontal are they?


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## PortoNuts




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## lafreak84

Thanks a lot for the explanation. Are there any other expansion plans?


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## spongeg




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## Tubeman

PortoNuts said:


> Underground lines are completely horizontal are they?


???

If you're referring to the 'up' and 'down' terminology... that has nothing to do with whether the lines are going up or down gradients... Of course LU lines have plenty of very steep gradients, bear in mind the topography of London varies from marginally above sea level at The Thames (the tube crossings beneath are well below sea level), to over 150m track height on the Metropolitan Line in the Chiltern hills...


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## sotonsi

Not much over 150m, mind you. Amersham station is about 500ft ASL, and the reversing sidings are about 15ft higher, if that (Chesham is lower, being in a bowl)


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## PortoNuts

@Tubeman: of course I know the terminology has nothing to do with that. I just had the impression it's more difficult to feel the actual ups and downs while underground.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## lightrail

davidaiow said:


> It was only relatively recently that I realised that the current Jubilee line used to be a part of the bakerloo. It's great to see it in a map. It also explains Baker Street's great interchange.


What you don't see on the tube maps is the great sweeping curve of the Jubilee Line as it approaches Baker Street from Green Park. Leaving Green Park NB, the tunnels turn east and then begin a large radius curve so they end up parallel to the Bakerloo platforms. This allows cross-platform SB Bakerloo - SB Jubilee.

In reality, the Jubilee tunnels get very close to Regent Street Underground Station (on the Bakerloo) - on a tube map and even a map of London showing the route of the lines, the Jubilee appears to run in a straight line from Green Park to Baker Street.

Baker Street and actual tunnel alignments








source: fridaynightsmoke.co.uk


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## Busfotodotnl

Is it possible to reduce the number of videos to news-related ones? I open this thread always hoping to find actual stuff about the LU, not to watch videos which i can find on youtube as well. Thanks in forward!


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## PortoNuts

> *Tube will be open until 2am for London Olympics*
> 
> *London Underground trains will be running until the early hours of the morning during the Olympics next year. The timetable for transporting the millions of fans to and from the events has finally been released, including more over ground and Tube services.*
> 
> During the games, the last Underground trains will leave the Olympic Park at 1:30am, while trains will be leaving central London until 2am and more services will be available in the evenings.
> 
> Late services to Exeter, Liverpool Lime Street, Cardiff Central, Birmingham New Street, Oxford and Manchester Piccadilly will also be laid on. In total, almost 4,000 extra services will run throughout the Olympic and Paralympic Games, with a number of trains operating during busy periods also boasting more carriages.
> 
> Any disruptive engineering works have been cancelled by Network Rail on routes serving the Olympic venues and Transport for London is suspending planned maintenance closures throughout the summer. Michael Roberts, chief executive of the Association of Train Operating Companies, said: 'As well as being able to book their London 2012 Games train fares up to 12 months in advance – a UK first – spectators will also be able to take advantage of thousands of extra services, earlier starting and later trains.'
> 
> A working party was previously set up to examine if Tube services could run 24-hours a day during the Games, however, these plans appear not to have come to fruition.


http://www.metro.co.uk/news/864366-tube-will-be-open-until-2am-for-london-olympics


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## spongeg

i love the videos  

if the underground is staying open extra hours til 2 am what time does it normally close?


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## iampuking

Usually around 11:30-12:00 in my experience


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## leverarch

Depends which line and where in London you are. The last train from most Zone 1 stations usually leave between 00.00-00.40. 

For example tonight the last Victoria line train from Oxford Circus is at 00.38 (north) 00.30 (south), the last Piccadilly line trains from Leicester Square are 00.30 (north) and 00.09 (south).

If you are travelling into Central London the last trains are earlier, usually 23.45-00.00 depending on how far outside London you are. Here are the last weekday trains from all the termini.

Chesham = 23.28
Heathrow = 23.45
Upminster = 23.41
Epping = 23.45
Amersham = 23.48
Watford = 23.51
West Ruislip = 23.53
Harrow & Wealdstone = 23.54
Cockfosters = 23.55
Wimbledon = 23.57
High Barnet = 23.57
Uxbridge = 23.59
Edgware = 23.59
Morden = 00.01
Richmond = 00.04
Walthamstow Central = 00.07
Stanmore = 00.10
Brixton = 00.12
Elephant & Castle = 00.23


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Police given green light to carry guns on tubes and trains*
> 
> *The British Transport Police have been given the go-ahead to carry out armed patrols of our railways and the London Underground in response to the terrorist threat - currently at its highest level.*
> 
> Until now, the BTP has not carried weapons, but Transport Secretary Philip Hammond today announced their force will now be armed. He said armed BTP officers would be 'deployed as appropriate in response to the terrorism threat level at any given time'.
> 
> In a Commons statement, Mr Hammond said that training BTP officers to carry out armed patrolling of the rail network would 'equip them with a capability already available to other forces'. He added that it would not be a daily event to see armed officers at stations and they would be deployed 'according to operational need'.
> 
> Mr Hammond said: 'The Government has been considering the resilience of the overall police armed capability and has concluded that it would be beneficial to enhance this by providing the BTP with an armed capability of its own. The timing of this is not as a result of any specific threat: it is a sensible and pragmatic approach to ensuring that our police forces have the right resources to be able to respond as and when needed to protect the public.'
> 
> The forces' Chief Constable Andy Trotter told the Daily Mail: 'I welcome the decision for BTP to have armed officers at mainline stations during times of heightened threat of terrorist attack. 'BTP officers have an excellent working knowledge of the railway which will enable them to respond quickly to any incidents.'
> 
> The 7/7 attacks on the Underground in 2005 highlighted the vulnerability of an 'open' system such as the Tube, which, because of its nature, cannot become a 'closed' system like an airport, where passengers can be thoroughly security-checked before passing through. This measure is the first step in further protecting our railways against similar attacks.


http://travel.aol.co.uk/2011/05/25/...reen-light-to-carry-guns-on-tubes-and-trains/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *DLR boss, Fantastic Mr Fox, is on track for the Olympics*
> 
> *If Jonathan Fox is stressed about what is by far the biggest test of his career, he is a magician at hiding it. Fox is director of the DLR and his driverless light rail system is about to be thrust into the international spotlight as it carries almost double its daily volume of passengers around to crucial Olympics venues next year. *
> 
> Questions have been asked, not least by ExCeL chief executive Kevin Murphy, about the network’s ability to cope with the deluge of humanity the Games is expected to attract. There are certainly no veins bulging from Fox’s head when he presents his case, though.
> 
> “The Olympics isn’t tomorrow. We will be ready,” he stresses. But rogue factors still slightly trouble him. “When you haven’t sold a ticket yet it’s quite difficult to understand how many people will be coming to the Games. But we are working on forecasts that the ODA and LOCOG supply and they are assuming they will sell all the tickets – the busiest case scenario.
> 
> “But the difficult one to predict is how many people come to London just to be part of the Games ‘feel’. How many live sights are there going to be? Actually estimating how many people are going to turn up to a free site is very difficult. So there’s some wooliness around the edges.”
> 
> In an average week, the DLR transports 275,000 passengers a day, but during the Games he expects around 500,000. “The amount of people we’ll have to carry is almost double. The difference is that we carry most passengers in the peak, whereas the Games are a whole-day affair and also into the evening.”
> 
> *Professionalism*
> 
> The 46-year-old answers every question with a calm professionalism, but his answers come served with a heavy dose of industry jargon, showing a man happily encased by his responsibilities.
> 
> His career reads like trainspotter pornography. He stepped out of university into British Rail as a trainee operations manager and he’s been bouncing around top jobs in the industry ever since, such as playing a part in launching commercial services through the Channel Tunnel. He’s been DLR director since 2004.
> 
> Fox, who in the flesh could easily pass for mid-30s, feigns offence when I suggest that, with this pedigree, one could label him a trainspotter. “I’m a buff, but not into that sort of stuff. You’ve got to be interested in trains to do trains for as long as I have. It does fascinate me, but I’m not a trainspotter,” he assures me – for the third time.
> 
> While Fox’s father was a pit manager in the china clay industry in Cornwall, trains run through his veins from both sides of the family a generation before. His grandfathers toiled on the Cornish railways; his paternal one as chief clerk in the booking office at St Austall and his maternal grandfather as a track repair ‘ganger’.
> 
> “That wasn’t uppermost in my mind while I was going through university doing my economics degree, but trains were in my family and they were talked about,” his Londonised (since 1982) accent wandering back into the West Country momentarily. “If you live in a fairly remote part of Cornwall, the railway represents mobility and seeing part of the world.”
> 
> Fox, who now calls north-west London his home, commutes on the DLR, the last leg of his daily journey to Serco’s offices by Poplar station. The cricket-lover says he’s a team player, not an autocratic leader, while stressing that the buck stops with him. He draws parallels between how he plays his favourite sport and his management style.
> 
> “The way I play my cricket is that team is the big thing. I tend to bat in the middle of the order and I normally field close to the bat or keep wicket. I’m involved in everything. I’m more Paul Collingwood than a Kevin Pietersen.”
> 
> Fox is proud of his record of project delivery at DLR, which has seen the opening of new routes and the increase of train sizes (from two to three cars) which has meant extensive platform modifications.
> 
> *Frustrated*
> 
> He reels these off with gusto: “Three-car train Bank to Lewisham, February last year, tick; 22 new vehicles as part of a 55-new-vehicle offer, all in service 2010, tick; Woolwich-Arsenal, tick, tick.”
> 
> But, inevitably, there’s always a skeleton in the project-delivery closet and, again, the Olympic spectre materialises. Despite the successful roll-out of three-car services into the ExCeL last week, there is one sore point for Fox: the key Stratford International link. “We hoped it would be opened in late 2010. I’m highly frustrated that we’re late. The systems integration has not worked as well as it could have done. But we’re over the worst and can see the finish line – ballpark is July.”
> 
> Fox is using the London Marathon and World Travel Market at ExCeL as his own Olympic test events. But there is a plan B, one which could involve queuing times unknown in the heaviest rush hour. It’s particularly aimed at day three of the Games when they’ll be events at the Olympic Park and Greenwich.
> 
> “We can’t build more railways overnight or order more vehicles overnight so it’s managing people through the stations that’s the plan B. The safety valve is the queue time. At the moment we are targeting a maximum of an hour or so at busiest times.”
> 
> Is an hour reasonable?  Certainly, given the circumstances, responds Fox. He is relentlessly confident that his network of driverless trains and (some) unmanned stations will be able to handle the Olympic crush.
> 
> “If you look at Athens, they would have given their right arm to be ready a year before the Games.”
> 
> *EXPAND AND DELIVER?*
> 
> Earlier this month a map surfaced on the TfL website illustrating “potential” new DLR routes. It proposes extending the network west, east and south including to St Pancras and Victoria. “The story goes back over 10 years when we did a horizon study about where the DLR could extend to,” says Fox. “The railway went to Beckton so the obvious extensions were to City Airport, Woolwich-Arsenal, Stratford International and Dagenham Dock.
> 
> “Dagenham is a well-established route anyway and that’s more long term because the rate of residential growth in that area hasn’t been as strong as it otherwise was so that hasn’t stacked up as a case. But going west, we said how can we fit in with the existing plans - we don’t want to replicate Crossrail or whatever.
> 
> “But the reason why St Pancras and Euston have become a possibility is because of the high-speed rail project.” There’s a lot of demand on the Victoria line going northbound – so we thought about how to alleviate that by moving people from Victoria and Westminster area. Will this happen tomorrow? No. Will it happen? I don’t know, but we are constantly thinking about it.”
> 
> *AWAY FROM THE TRAINS *
> 
> When Fox steps away from trains it’s usually to play music and sport and spend time with his family. “I’m a bit musical. I play keyboard, guitar and have a Fender jazz bass that I occasionally get out of the case. I also play music at my local church – it’s part of how I relax.”
> 
> Fox is also an “occasional football player” and Plymouth Argyle supporter, following his West Country roots. Although it’s been a sad year as his beloved Argyle were relegated from League One. Cricket is his “main sport”, which he played at university. “I played club cricket until my daughter [Ester] was born three years ago – then it went out the window.”


http://www.docklands24.co.uk/news/t..._mr_fox_is_on_track_for_the_olympics_1_905159


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## spongeg

iampuking said:


> Usually around 11:30-12:00 in my experience


thx seems so early for such a big city - people here complain that the trains shut down around 1 am


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## PortoNuts

Maintenance can only be done at night in London.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## iampuking

spongeg said:


> thx seems so early for such a big city - people here complain that the trains shut down around 1 am


Well I believe London has one of the most extensive night bus systems to make up for it.


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## PortoNuts

iampuking said:


> Well I believe London has one of the most extensive night bus systems to make up for it.


Some bus routes even make the same exact stops of the underground.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Artist on mission to paint 450 Tube stations *
> 
> *An artist from Rickmansworth will showcase a unique collection of Tube-inspired paintings at a prestigious London exhibition this weekend. Ross Ashmore, 54, of Valley Road, is currently working on an ambitious three-year project to paint all 450 stations within the Underground network.*
> 
> The married father-of-three, who works in a studio at his home, has so far completed Zone 1 – 63 works in total as Blackfriars station is currently closed – including Elephant and Castle, Embankment and Paddington.
> 
> Mr Ashmore told the Gazette: "Some people hate the Tube but I have always loved catching the train and I am fascinated by the history and archaeology of the Underground, which I think is often taken for granted. The paintings are created very spontaneously using special industrial oils and they have a textured, expressionist feel to them.
> 
> "Each station has a particular meaning to passengers who use them regularly and some of the paintings have already been purchased by people in the UK and as far afield as Hong Kong." Mr Ashmore, who also enjoys sculpting and life drawing, will exhibit his creations at the United Artists Fair, in the historic Chelsea Old Town Hall, Kings Road, London.
> 
> The three-day event, the largest of its kind in Britain, attracts thousands of visitors to view and buy the work of as many as 170 artists. The fair opens on Friday evening (invitation only) with free public admission on Saturday and Sunday.
> 
> See next week's Gazette for a feature about Mr Ashmore's work.


http://www.uxbridgegazette.co.uk/we...n-to-paint-450-tube-stations-113046-28794701/


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## iampuking

PortoNuts said:


>


Thanks for that, never realised that it'd be finished so soon!


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## CairnsTony

PortoNuts said:


> http://www.uxbridgegazette.co.uk/we...n-to-paint-450-tube-stations-113046-28794701/


???

450 tube stations? Even including the London Overground and DLR I don't think the figure even begins to approach that.


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## marciomaco

Maybe they are counting by pairs of platforms. For example, King's Cross Sst. Pancreas: don't cot as only one station, but 4 (Victoria, Picaddilly, Northern and Circle/Hammersmith&City/Metropolitan platforms)


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## sotonsi

That only gives you 381 (not discounting shared platforms*), so the 450 is 69 too high. LO's 78 takes you 9 over, so perhaps we're looking at the DLR's 41 (Poplar x2), but then what makes up the remaining 29?

The article also says 68 stations in zone 1 'as Blackfriars is closed', which is correct for TfL (provided you count both Paddington LU stations and Tower Gateway DLR). There's a bodge going on.

I have no idea how 450 was achieved.

*if you discount shared platforms you get 326 LU, 41 DLR, 67 LO (counting LO/LU as LU), which gives you 434.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Olympic stadium transport ready*
> 
> *The transport ‘Big Build’ that will help spectators and the rest of London keep moving during the Games is complete with works at the main ‘Gateway’ station for the Games now finished the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) confirmed today.*
> 
> The ODA announced that work was complete at the main ‘Gateway’ station for the Games, Stratford Station, as guests and media also took a test ride on the newly completed Docklands Light Railway (DLR) extension from Stratford International Station for the first time. The DLR extension will open to the public this summer and Transport for London (TfL) is on track to complete the Jubilee line signalling upgrade in July, a year ahead of the Games.
> 
> Together, the upgrades and improvement works mean that 10 different rail routes will serve Stratford station during and after the London 2012 Games, making it one of the most connected parts of the capital.
> 
> The vast majority of upgrades required for the Games are already operational and form part of a £6.5 billion transport improvement package across the UK to increase capacity and bolster services, enabling 100 per cent of spectators to travel to the Games by public transport, walking or cycling.
> 
> The milestone was marked today as the Mayor of London, Transport Secretary and Culture and Olympics Secretary, LOCOG Chair Seb Coe and ODA Chief Executive Dennis Hone showcased the routes that many spectators would use to arrive at the Olympic Park next summer. These routes included the Javelin® service to Stratford International, the new DLR extension linking Stratford International to Canning Town and also the new Northern Ticket Hall that will serve the Westfield shopping centre when it opens in September.
> 
> Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London said: “Thanks to the Games and the massive settlement we've secured from central government, London is seeing a neo-Victorian age of investment in its transport infrastructure. East London now has arguably some of the best transport connections in the world and they are here for all Londoners to take advantage of, a year ahead of the Games.”
> 
> Transport Secretary Philip Hammond said: “London 2012 has been the catalyst for permanent transport improvements which will benefit millions of people, not just for the Olympics, but for generations to come. This investment will ensure that the thousands of athletes and spectators attending the world's biggest sporting event travel safely and efficiently around the UK.
> 
> “But crucially it will also allow us to minimise the disruption for those who are not attending the Games and are going about their everyday business during July and August next year. Obviously, with hundreds and thousands of additional passengers in town, I can’t promise that there will be no disruption to normal travel patterns. And some people will need to think differently about how they travel, possibly working from home, shifting journey times or avoiding the capital at particularly busy times. But I can guarantee that the Government, the Mayor and London 2012 are doing everything possible to get people to the Games, whilst ensuring the rest of the country keeps moving.”
> 
> ODA Chief Executive Dennis Hone said: “Working together with TfL, Network Rail and others, we have delivered a positive transport legacy for London a year before the Games. New trains, improved services and upgrades to infrastructure such as at Stratford Station, the main ‘Gateway’ station to the Games, will mean spectators can get to and from venues in 2012 and will leave East London better connected for decades afterwards.”
> 
> LOCOG Chair Sebastian Coe said: “We have seen over the last five or six years a collective spirit from all of our stakeholders who are focused on not just making London 2012 a huge success, but also creating a fantastic legacy for generations to come. The work on the transport infrastructure which has been completed is a great example of how organisations have come together to ensure that the venues are well connected for Games-time, giving spectators a fantastic experience next summer. And when the Games have left town, London will be left with an enhanced transport system which will benefit communities for generations to come.”
> 
> Peter Hendy, London Transport’s Commissioner said: “We’re on track to deliver all transport improvements well ahead of the Games and Londoners are already benefitting from this early legacy.
> 
> “Transport networks will be busier than usual, which is why we’re urging businesses to plan ahead now for how and when they travel, and have their goods delivered, during the summer of 2012. But working together, I’m confident we’ll keep London moving and deliver a fantastic Games of which the city and nation can be proud.”
> 
> Andrew Altman, Chief Executive of the Olympic Park Legacy Company, said: “As with every great city, the transport infrastructure will play a fundamental role in defining the success of the future Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park. Stratford has become one of the best connected destinations in London and is a central reason why we are already seeing a great deal of commercial interest in investing in the Park after the Games.”
> 
> Upgrades and enhancements have been delivered through partnership working and a united effort between the ODA, Transport for London (TfL), Network Rail and the Department for Transport, resulting in substantial improvements to London’s rail networks, particularly across the ten lines serving the 500-acre Olympic Park and its three stations - Stratford, Stratford International and West Ham. Together, these stations will accommodate just under 80 per cent of visitors to Stratford.
> 
> The latest edition of the London 2012 Transport Plan, which gives a comprehensive overview of the Games-time transport arrangements across the UK, was also launched on the day.
> 
> Transport improvements across London and the UK will leave behind a lasting legacy after London 2012. During the Games, enhancements will help handle expected capacity, with the three stations expected to handle around 80 per cent of spectators between them.
> 
> To increase capacity and improve routes leading to the Olympic Park, the ODA was required to manage a programme with stakeholders to upgrade lines, infrastructure and rolling stock. The bulk of this has now been introduced, with concentrated investment at Stratford Station, which will handle close to half of all Olympic Park spectators to the Olympic Park.
> 
> The station has benefitted from more than £125 million of upgrades and enhancements, with capacity trebled to accommodate 120,000 people during the morning peaks in 2012, when more than 200 trains will pass through the station each hour. This has been achieved through upgrades including dual-side opening doors on the Central Line at Stratford station, the introduction of three-car trains on the DLR, and mainline rail service improvements, including the North London Line, Lea Valley lines, Great Eastern Main Line and East London Line (see full list of improvements in factfile below).
> 
> Meanwhile, the establishment of the Javelin service at Stratford International will also help meet demand, as will investment in improving capacity at West Ham, where the ODA has built a new temporary bridge that will take spectators directly from the District and Hammersmith & City Line platform to the Greenway walking route and into the Olympic Park. This will also allow regular commuters to follow their usual route through the station with less disruption.
> 
> As the ODA concludes its management of Games-time investment, the baton has now been passed to Transport for London (TfL), Network Rail and the nations’ train operating companies to run services next summer.
> 
> *Transport factfile:*
> 
> - 78 per cent of spectators are expected to travel to and from the Olympic Park by rail. The breakdown by station is:
> - Stratford International: 18 per cent
> - Stratford Regional: 61 per cent
> - West Ham: 21 per cent
> - The London 2012 transport strategy is for 100 per cent of spectators to travel to the Games by public transport, walking or cycling. However, this allows for Blue Badge holders, a limited number of who will be able to drive close to venues.
> - The completion of the Jubilee line signalling upgrade by Transport for London is due to be completed in July 2011, delivering a 33 per cent increase in capacity through faster and more frequent train services.
> - Transport investment includes:
> 
> *ODA funded and managed works at Stratford (working alongside delivery partners London Underground and Network Rail):*
> 
> - Nine new lifts and nine new stairs to increase passenger capacity.
> - A new Central Line platform, allowing dual-side opening to speed boarding and alighting.
> - A new station mezzanine entrance and ticket hall with ticketing and gate-line facilities.
> - Station power and systems completely upgraded.
> - Integration of previously disparate security, life-safety and customer information systems.
> - Platform de-cluttering and the reopening of the Eastern Subway.
> 
> *ODA co-funded works (with contribution from TfL and National Rail):*
> - Upgrades to the North London Line and Lea Valley lines, including associated signalling, track and overhead line works.
> - An additional freight loop at Stratford and associated lengthening of Platform 10a to handle 12 car trains.
> - The demolition and reconstruction of the existing Angel Lane road-over-rail bridge.
> 
> *ODA co-funded works (delivered by DLR):*
> - Introduction of three-car trains on the DLR.
> - Extension of the Docklands Light Railway from Canning Town to Stratford International, having completed the extension to Woolwich Arsenal
> - Other upgrades include accessibility improvements at Soutfields and Green Park stations; new high-speed domestic trains; new Victoria line trains and signalling improvements at West Ham
> - Improving accessibility is central to the upgrades and enhancements at Stratford Station - nine new lifts and eight new staircases have been installed to improve passenger flow and accessibility and in addition, platforms have been lengthened, widened and made clearer to reduce congestion.


http://www.thelondondailynews.com/olympic-stadium-transport-ready-p-5295.html


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Call to prevent Olympics crush*
> 
> *Employers and the public will need to think about changing routine journeys during next year’s London Olympics to avoid overwhelming “stress points” on the transport network, the transport secretary has warned. Philip Hammond was speaking at an event to mark completion of the Docklands Light Railway extension from Stratford to Stratford International – the last piece of new transport infrastructure planned ahead of the Olympics.*
> 
> The only remaining projects to be completed to prepare London’s transport network for the expected crowds are signalling upgrades on the London Underground’s Jubilee and Victoria lines.
> 
> Mr Hammond said many stations, such as London Bridge, would encounter significant amounts of Olympic traffic. Employers would need to consider whether staff should be allowed to change their working hours to avoid the worst congestion or work outside the office. “We need to get people to think about how they plan their journeys,” Mr Hammond said. “Certainly, the government will be allowing significant numbers of people to work from home during the Games to ease the burden on the transport system.”
> 
> Among the main new transport links that will handle Olympic spectators are the High Speed One link from St Pancras International to Stratford International and the East London Line from New Cross to Dalston Junction, as well as the DLR extension, which will open this summer.
> 
> The extension is vital because it will link Stratford International – which will be served by high-speed trains every six minutes from St Pancras – to the stadiums around Stratford.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/39c88dd4-8c82-11e0-883f-00144feab49a.html#axzz1O3sBgHQc


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## PortoNuts

> *Buren brightens up underground*
> 
> *French artist Daniel Buren's colourful, geometric art will adorn one of London's busiest underground stations as part of the £1 billion expansion of Tottenham Court Road. Commissioned by Transport for London for its Art on the Underground programme, the project is set to be completed by 2016. *
> 
> A colourful series of diamond and circle shapes will cover the internal glass walls of the station. “I decided to work with very simple shapes so that I can respond to the requirements of the subway station in different ways”, said Buren. The work will become a major feature of the station's new entrance hall, designed to accommodate some 200,000 commuters and tourists a day. Transparent versions of the work will serve to section off the ticket areas. Buren is also designing a sculpture of the shapes for the station's ticket hall, which will be displayed behind glass, “like an antique”, said Buren. Tamsin Dillon, the head of Art on the Underground said: “We wanted to build on the underground's tradition of working with world-class artists. By collaborating with Buren, we are continuing this connection.”
> 
> Buren said that he did not create the design with a function in mind but recognised that travelling on the underground can be stressful. “It’s a very difficult situation for everyone,” he said. So he wanted to avoid creating something visually “irritating”.
> 
> “Working in the public sphere one must find a balance between being supple and being strong, so that one's work is not compromised,” he said, referring to the red tape involved in such a commission. For Tottenham Court Road, Buren originally intended to include the ceilings above the escalators, because they are “always very claustrophobic” he said. But Transport for London ruled that out saying it would be too difficult to maintain.
> 
> “Being in the public space, a work can have a very large audience. We know that the majority of people have their reservations when it comes to contemporary art. This is compounded when a work stops working or deteriorates, and in the end, the artist is always blamed,” said Buren. He is confident that London Underground's maintenance staff will be up to the job, however. “It's only a matter of cleaning, and tube stations are cleaned anyway,” he said.
> 
> Buren has become something of a public transportation designer du jour. He has also been commissioned by the French city of Tours to help design its new tram system. His ideas, which were presented at the beginning of May, include designs for the vehicles and stations, complete with sound and lighting effects.
> 
> Tottenham Court Road station already features a large-scale work of art: mosaic murals by the late Eduardo Paolozzi, designed in the early 1980s. When the refurbishment plans for the station were first announced, there were fears for the work. The majority of the Paolozzi mosaics are being preserved, while some smaller sections will removed to an alternative site, which is still to be identified.


http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Buren-brightens-up-underground/23950


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## marciomaco

sotonsi said:


> That only gives you 381 (not discounting shared platforms*), so the 450 is 69 too high. LO's 78 takes you 9 over, so perhaps we're looking at the DLR's 41 (Poplar x2), but then what makes up the remaining 29?
> 
> The article also says 68 stations in zone 1 'as Blackfriars is closed', which is correct for TfL (provided you count both Paddington LU stations and Tower Gateway DLR). There's a bodge going on.
> 
> I have no idea how 450 was achieved.
> 
> *if you discount shared platforms you get 326 LU, 41 DLR, 67 LO (counting LO/LU as LU), which gives you 434.


Count with the ones that are at construction on DLR, and, possibilly, the Crossrail stations?


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## PortoNuts

> *Crime ‘continues to fall’ on the Tube network*
> 
> *The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has welcomed the news that once again the number of crimes on the transport network has fallen. New figures released by the British Transport Police and the Metropolitan Police Service show that crime on the Underground and Docklands Light Railway went down by seven% and offences on London’s bus network down by four% in the last twelve months.*
> 
> The figures show that in 2010/11:
> 
> - Violent crime against a person offences on the bus network has been cut by 5%
> - Public disorder offences on the Tube and DLR are down by 11%
> - Vandalism has reduced by 20% for the Tube and DLR, and 12% for buses
> - Theft on the bus network is down by 6%
> 
> Over the last three years the Mayor and TfL have increased investment in transport safety and security. Safer Transport Teams have were introduced in all London Boroughs, providing over 400 MPS officers, and a cycle task force of 40 officers has been created. In addition, the consumption of alcohol on the TfL services has been banned, which has won the support of Londoners wanting to improve their experience of travelling on the Tube and on the bus.
> 
> Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, said:
> 
> “When I became Mayor I pledged to make London’s vast network of public transport safer, and these figures confirm that our laser like focus on reducing crime on the network is having a positive effect. The additional investment in safer transport team officers we created and extra British Transport Police officers we provided are doing a great job of helping keep Londoners safe, but we also plan to provide them with some extra support by putting another 413 Police Officers on the transport network next year.”
> 
> The reduction in overall bus crime has been largely down to the work done by the TfL-funded Safer Transport Teams in each of the Capital’s boroughs working closely with TfL, through working with community groups and schools, conducting intelligence-led operations and being a visible presence on the network. On the Tube and DLR, continued improvements in safety and security on trains and stations, as well as TfL’s ongoing, collaborative work with the BTP, have also helped achieve a seven per cent reduction in overall crime.
> 
> Despite the overall reductions in crime, small increases in robbery offences have been experienced over the last year. The numbers are low particularly in context of the ‘billions of journeys made’ on the system each year – an additional 101 offences on the bus network and an additional 24 offences on the Tube and DLR over the year.
> 
> TfL say they are not complacent and have measures in place to deal with this such as targeted police operations, CCTV to bring offenders to justice and crime prevention advice to encourage passengers to take extra care of their belongings, particularly expensive electronic items. Where robbery is an issue certain Safer Transport Teams will address any trends or increases by conducting high-visibility and intelligence led operations to deter offenders.
> 
> Another offence that has seen a rise in the past year is theft of railway property, most notably cable theft. To combat this, officers from the BTP are using various tactics including covert operations and community based intelligence to crack down on those whose actions can disrupt the Tube.
> 
> TfL continually works with the BTP on dedicated operations to minimise crime on the Tube and DLR networks and the hundreds of BTP officers who patrol the Tube and DLR network are supported by around 12,000 CCTV cameras in order to minimise any risks to passenger safety and security.
> 
> Steve Burton, Director of Community Safety, Enforcement and Policing at TfL, said: “The transport network is a low crime environment and it is encouraging that the number of crimes has again fallen on the bus and Tube/DLR networks. But we are not complacent and will continue to work together with our policing partners to further reduce transport crime in the Capital and keep passengers safe.”
> 
> There are now just 10.5 crimes per million passenger journeys on London’s buses, with 11.4 crimes per million passenger journeys on the Tube and DLR as the transport network remains a safe, low crime environment.


http://www.rail.co/2011/06/03/crime-continues-to-fall-on-the-tube-network/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## iampuking

^^That article only applies to tourists or out-of-towners. Most Londoners know the fastest route, the fact that 30% of people chose the fastest to get from Bond Street to Paddington shows this. I don't think the map should be cluttered even more than it already is because of 30%.


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## krulstaartje

^^

People using more efficient routes would reduce overcrowding though, since their total time spent on the tube is less. For example, on my previous very overcrowded commute KGX - Canary Wharf, many people transfer at Bank to the DLR, but transferring at London Bridge to the Jubilee is actually a full minute and sometimes more shorter.


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## CairnsTony

krulstaartje said:


> ^^
> 
> People using more efficient routes would reduce overcrowding though, since their total time spent on the tube is less. For example, on my previous very overcrowded commute KGX - Canary Wharf, many people transfer at Bank to the DLR, but transferring at London Bridge to the Jubilee is actually a full minute and sometimes more shorter.


I agree. I lived in London for twenty years and still made mistakes as to the quickest route, when travelling on sections of the network I normally did not use. It would be useful information for passengers whomever they are.

I'm sure once upon a time this information was shown electronically on display screens in stations, indicating the quickest route on the map, or did I dream that?


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## signol

Waterloo to Kings Cross is another one - I recall that going via Oxford Circus is quickest, as the transfer is cross-platform, rather walking than up and down stairs and through tunnels to the 2nd platform.

signol


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## geoking66

krulstaartje said:


> ^^
> 
> People using more efficient routes would reduce overcrowding though, since their total time spent on the tube is less. For example, on my previous very overcrowded commute KGX - Canary Wharf, many people transfer at Bank to the DLR, but transferring at London Bridge to the Jubilee is actually a full minute and sometimes more shorter.


Even so, would you want to be on the Jubilee during peak hour to Canary Wharf? I'd rather use the DLR.


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## Davodavo

http://en.shop.aerosoft.com/eshop.p...=english&PHPSESSID=mju68u199fq3mm2mtg22mjv134


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## PortoNuts

iampuking said:


> ^^That article only applies to tourists or out-of-towners. Most Londoners know the fastest route, the fact that 30% of people chose the fastest to get from Bond Street to Paddington shows this. I don't think the map should be cluttered even more than it already is because of 30%.


Subscribe that. If they put all those details, everyone would then be complaining how 'cluttered and hard to understand' the map would be. It's always 'damn if you do, damn if you don't'.


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## krulstaartje

geoking66 said:


> Even so, would you want to be on the Jubilee during peak hour to Canary Wharf? I'd rather use the DLR.


You're right that you don't want to be on either


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## PortoNuts




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## mcarling

PortoNuts said:


> If they put all those details, everyone would then be complaining how 'cluttered and hard to understand' the map would be. It's always 'damn if you do, damn if you don't'.


In my opinion, all the general system maps which attempt to show the fastest route from any station to any other station are cluttered, confusing, and create more difficulties than they alleviate. However, I have seen some metro maps that show _for one station only_ the fastest route to every other station.

This would require every station to have a different map and probably for every station to also have the uniform map which does not indicate the fastest routes.

Examples and discussion can be found here (pages 11-13):
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1200121&page=11


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## Tubeman

> In a new study called Mind the Map, New York University professor of urban planning Zhan Guo compared the journeys made by Tube passengers with routes the travel time data showed they "should" have made. He compared the journey between Bond Street and Paddington stations - a trip with two potential routes, the first via Baker Street and the second through Notting Hill Gate.
> 
> The second route is slower, but about 30 per cent of travellers chose it. He wrote: "Passengers often (mis)trust a transit map more than their actual experience; they often take a path that looks shorter on the system map but is longer in reality


Those 30% of people are clearly idiots... and no amount of embellishments on the map will change that.

The two stations are the same distance apart on the map if you follow the lines, so logically you then use the number of stops and / or changes as a tie-breaker... and the Baker Street route is clearly superior as it's 3 stops and 1 change versus 6 and 1.

The only reason why someone unfamiliar with the Tube might be excused for going via Notting Hill Gate is because it's a much simpler interchange (i.e. when you alight from the Circle / District Line, there's only one other line you could change onto).


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Tube passengers warned over upgrade work*
> 
> *London’s new deputy mayor for transport has warned passengers that they will face “teething problems” as the last stage of the troubled Jubilee line upgrade is completed and workers shift to the Northern line, the network’s busiest route.*
> 
> But Isabel Dedring, who was appointed in April, said the work on the two lines was vital to ensure the metro system could handle fast-rising traffic levels. Its completion would prove London Underground could “get to grips with” the problems that have plagued its upgrade programme.
> LU is due to start from early July using a more sophisticated Jubilee line signalling system between Dollis Hill and Stanmore, the last section using traditional signals. The section includes Neasden depot, where engineers have been struggling to ensure Metropolitan line trains will be able to run safely alongside trains using the new Jubilee line system.
> 
> The new system will let trains run faster and closer together. But undetected software flaws produced serious breakdowns when it was first introduced elsewhere on the line. “If we look forward to July on the Jubilee line, we should certainly expect that we will have teething problems as we drop the last bit of kit in,” Ms Dedring said. “The fact is that everywhere, where you’re putting in that kind of scale of investment, metros will experience disruption for a period.”
> 
> The new kit would nevertheless let the underground carry more passengers, Ms Dedring said.
> 
> After a month to allow for any problems to emerge, LU plans to start running 27, rather than the present 24, trains an hour on the Jubilee. The figure will rise to 30 trains an hour next February. The new timetable will help the line to cope with traffic during the 2012 Olympics. LU would apply lessons from the Jubilee line upgrade – started under Tube Lines, the public-private partnership contractor that LU bought out last year – to the Northern line.
> 
> The Northern line programme, which will use the same technology as the Jubilee, should benefit from work already undertaken to adapt the system to London Underground conditions. But Ms Dedring insisted significant effort had also gone into avoiding the regular weekend closures inflicted on Jubilee line passengers.
> 
> Work on the Northern line will start late this year. A new timetable, boosting the line’s capacity by 20 per cent, should be adopted by the end of 2014.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/786f74f8-9529-11e0-a648-00144feab49a.html#axzz1P5ae1EC7


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Tube delays down by more than a third in 8 years*
> 
> *Delays on London Underground (LU) have dropped by more than a third since 2003/4 when the Tube became part of Transport for London, new figures from TfL show.*
> 
> The figures were provided to the London Assembly’s Transport Committee, ahead of this week’s inquiry into Tube performance.
> 
> The figures demonstrate a long-term continuing trend of improvement:
> 
> - Record numbers of passengers per year use the Tube – last year there were 1.1 billion passenger journeys, up 17% since 2003/4.
> 
> - Rising levels of passenger satisfaction measured by independent surveys.
> 
> - The volume of train service has increased while reliability has improved, since 2003/4.
> 
> - A 12% improvement in the reliability of LU’s scheduled services (measured by the ‘excess journey time’ experienced on average by passengers).
> 
> - Delays have fallen by 35%.
> 
> - Despite the vital weekend closures to upgrade the Tube, the number of kilometres operated still remain near their highest ever level.
> 
> - While the data shows that there was a dip in performance during the autumn and winter – due to a number of factors such as the introduction of new systems on the Jubilee and Victoria lines and industrial action – performance has improved over recent months and has returned to the level that was being achieved before the dip.
> 
> LU’s Managing Director, Mike Brown, said: “The Tube has an underlying long-term trend of improving performance, which has been achieved despite the need to close parts of the network more frequently at weekends for upgrade work. However we are not complacent and we are putting in additional measures to continue to improve our performance and deliver an increasingly reliable service for Londoners.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/06/13/tube-delays-down-by-more-than-a-third-in-8-years/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

*Getting from the London underground to the surface*


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## PortoNuts

> *New signalling on the Tube to increase capacity on 40% of network*
> 
> *London Underground has awarded Bombardier Transportation the contract to upgrade the signalling on the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines.*
> 
> The new signalling contract was finalised over the weekend following a statutory ‘standstill’ period. Alongside the fleet of 191 new air-conditioned walk-through trains, already being rolled out on the Metropolitan line, the new signalling system, when complete, will mean passengers can travel more quickly, and frequently on all of the sub-surface lines, which together make up 40% of the Tube network.
> 
> *Overall the upgrade, which is due for completion in 2018, will mean:*
> 
> - 24% more capacity on the District line by providing space for an extra 10,000 passengers an hour – increasing the line’s capacity from 40,000 to 50,000 passengers an hour.
> 
> - 27% more capacity on the Metropolitan line by providing space for an extra 9,500 more passengers an hour – increasing the line’s capacity from 35,000 to 44,500 passengers an hour.
> 
> - 65% more capacity on the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines, delivered through new signalling, longer trains and recent improvements to service frequency. In total the upgrade will provide space for an extra 17,500 more passengers each hour – increasing the capacity from 26,000 to 43,500 passengers an hour.
> 
> London Underground has been working with and learning from other metros around the world in order to identify innovative ways to upgrade the Tube while minimising disruption. As a result, Bombardier Transportation, who recently upgraded the signalling on the Madrid Metro, has committed to installing and testing the new signalling system without any need for weekend closures.
> 
> There will still be a need for weekend closures to upgrade track and platforms, however these will not be the full line closures that have been experienced during previous upgrade work on other lines under the Public Private Partnership (PPP).
> 
> Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, said: “The signing of this contract means that we can now proceed with one of the most important elements of the Tube upgrade programme. The Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines are the oldest in the Capital, making up a large chunk of the Tube network and moving a million Londoners every day.
> 
> “This new contract will deliver the minimum amount of closures while delivering the improvements all Londoners are desperate to see.”
> 
> LU Managing Director, Mike Brown said: “This is a major step forward in our plan to upgrade the Tube and will mean faster, more frequent and reliable Tube services across 40% of the Tube network. We know that line closures are disruptive to our customers and as a result we have insisted on the delivery of the new signalling system without the need for the kind of closures we have seen on other lines.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/06/14/new-signalling-on-the-tube-to-increase-capacity-on-40-of-network/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Northern line upgrade set to begin this year*
> 
> *Transport for London today announced that the main programme of works to upgrade London’s busiest Tube line – the Northern line – will commence later this year. When complete, the upgrade will deliver faster, more frequent and more reliable train services for customers, increasing capacity by 20% and cutting journey times by around 18%. The upgrade works are due to be completed in 2014.*
> 
> TfL said lessons ‘have been learned from the upgrade of the Jubilee line’ and a new approach is being taken on the Northern line that will mean ‘significantly fewer weekend closures than originally planned under the Public Private Partnership (PPP) contracts, with no early evening closures’. Under the PPP, Tube Lines had proposed 65 weekend closures on the Northern line, many of which would have closed the whole line, or large parts of it.
> 
> Instead there will now be:
> 
> - Eight weekends of full line closures for the installation and testing of the new signalling system, spread out so as to cause minimum disruption, with five closures in 2013 and three in 2014.
> 
> - Eight additional weekends where shorter sections of the line will be closed, many of which will affect only the High Barnet branch, the most lightly-used section of the line.
> 
> - Six closures of parts of the line during the quieter Easter and Christmas holiday periods which will be closed for 4 or 5 days respectively.
> 
> - Tube Lines had also planned 18 months of weekday early evening closures affecting the whole line, with last trains due to have left the centre of London by 22:00.
> 
> From October, the northern branches of the line will in turn start up slightly late on Sundays to allow for extensive work during Saturday night’s engineering hours to be completed.
> 
> This will give greater flexibility to install and test the signalling and will impact on considerably fewer people than either early evening closures of a series of weekend closures. Services on the High Barnet branch will start from 8.30am on Sundays through to November 2012, followed by the Edgware branch through to November 2013.
> 
> Overall, this represents a reduction of over 60% in the number of passenger journeys that will be disrupted by the work compared with the number that would have been disrupted under the original PPP plan.
> 
> Isabel Dedring, the Mayor of London’s Deputy Mayor for Transport, said: “Delivering more reliable journeys for Londoners wherever they are on the transport network is a top priority for the Mayor. The team at the Underground have completely overhauled the Northern Line upgrade programme to ensure that passengers do not have to go through a repeat of the disruption they suffered with the Jubilee Line upgrade.”
> 
> In order to achieve this reduced closure programme London Underground will be intensifying the amount of work done during night-time engineering hours, using the hours where the network is closed each night in full to carry out upgrade works, as well as the usual maintenance work.
> 
> In addition, much more system testing will be done ‘off site’ using improved simulators, and on an extended and enhanced test track at Highgate, to reduce the time needed for closures and to drive out any problems in the system before it goes live for passengers.
> 
> Improvements made for the Jubilee line system (which uses the same hardware and software) will automatically be carried across to the Northern line. Staff who will operate the system on a day to day basis, including train operators, will also have a greater involvement in putting the new system through its paces in simulators to iron out issues off site. These new approaches will together help to ensure that the new system is reliable once it is used in passenger service.
> 
> The upgrade will proceed in phases to minimise risk, starting with off-site software development and testing, followed by the new system being applied in the High Barnet area before being rolled out across the rest of the line. Following Transport for London’s acquisition of Tube Lines last summer the Jubilee line upgrade is now on-track for completion at the end of next month.
> 
> London Underground Managing Director, Mike Brown, said: “We know how disruptive weekend engineering works can be and we’re determined to learn lessons from the Jubilee line upgrade, the last of the PPP upgrades.


http://www.rail.co/2011/06/13/northern-line-upgrade-set-to-begin-this-year/


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Thanks. I knew it was only in 'extreme' stations with warnings like 'there are 300 steps' or something like this.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *One week left to push for extra district line trains in rush hour, residents warned*
> 
> *Hard-pressed commuters in Putney and Southfields who want extra rush hour trains on the District Line only have one week left to persuade tube bosses they are vitally needed. Earlier this year London Underground chiefs unveiled proposals to provide an extra five morning rush hour trains on the Wimbledon Line. *
> 
> The plan is to discontinue the poorly used weekday services to Olympia. But since then residents and businesses near Olympia have been campaigning against the changes and are said to be on the brink of forcing a rethink.
> 
> The public consultation concludes next Friday - July 15 - and people who want to see the changes implemented are being advised to act now. Wandsworth's transport spokesman Councillor Russell King says residents who want the extra trains have only one week left to speak out if they want to make sure their views are not overlooked.
> 
> He said: "Time is running out for people living in Putney and Southfields who want to see these service improvements delivered. The campaign by residents and businesses in Olympia is on the verge of overturning London Underground's original intentions so it is absolutely vital that passengers who want these extra trains speak out now."
> 
> People who want to take part in the consultation can email [email protected] marking it 'Olympia District line consultation' or call Transport for London's customer services hotline on 0845 330 9880 between 8am and 8pm seven days a week. Comments can also be left on the TfL website at www.tfl.gov.uk/districtlineconsultation or in writing to LU's Customer Service Centre, 55 Broadway, London SW1H 0BD.
> 
> Commuters can also sign an online petition set up by the council backing the extra trains. To do so visit http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/extra-trains-on-the-district-line-wimbledon-branch.html Coun King added: "People living south of the river need to inundate London Underground with as many messages of support for the changes as possible."
> 
> The District Line service to Olympia is used by less than 2,500 people a day, but causes delays to all other services through Earl's Court.
> 
> Introducing the proposed changes would provide capacity for an additional 4,000 people on the Wimbledon line in the morning peak and an extra 800 people to Ealing Broadway in the evening.


http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...t_line_trains_in_rush_hour__residents_warned/


----------



## iampuking

As we're in a democracy my opinion on things like this is, the option that helps the most people should be the option that is used. And if we look at the patronage of stations on the Olympia branch vs the Wimbledon branch...

Kensington Olympia

2010 1.290 million

Vs...

West Brompton

2009 3.715 million

Fulham Broadway

2010 9.300 million

Parsons Green

2009 5.450 million

Putney Bridge

2009 5.648 million

and so on...

IMO this is long overdue. The Olympia branch has ridiculously low usage for a station in Zone 2 and should be removed for the sake of the rest of the line.


----------



## CairnsTony

What has happened in recent years is the opening of stations on the West London Line at West Brompton and Shepherd's Bush. So even with the closure of the Olympia stub, people using that station would still have single-change options for travelling into the city. It would be harder for them to travel West, but the all round improvements for other commuters if the stub to Olympia is closed are pretty clear.


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## batman08




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## batman08




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *London underground Oyster card revolution?*
> 
> *Welcome news for London commuters could see Oyster card ‘overcharging’ cut for tube journeys.*
> 
> Around £60 million swelled the coffers of transport bosses in 2010, raised by levying the maximum fare of £6 on commuters who failed to tap out when a journey was finished. This year £7.20 is the new maximum fare.
> 
> But now changes may be on the cards, though Transport for London is staying tight-lipped at present. One scheme under consideration called ‘automatic journey complete’ can complete a regular journey made by the user who fails to tap out. It is similar to a system already in use for when large crowds pass through turnstiles.
> 
> How often this would happen or if there will be a limit is undecided at present. The figure of £60m claimed by critics as the cost of the problem is disputed by TfL. It claims that £14m was raised by levying the maximum fare on incomplete journeys, adding that the number of incomplete journeys is falling.
> 
> “We are developing the technology,” a TfL spokeswoman told London24."We are working on a technological solution which we hope to introduce later this year to tackle the issue of incomplete journeys, which affect just 2 per cent of the 7.5 million weekly Oyster pay as you go journeys on the TfL network.”But the spokeswoman denied the £60m raised last year was a result of an ‘overcharging’ error.
> 
> Failure by Tube travellers to use properly their Oyster cards comprised most of the £60m, she insisted. The issue of alleged overcharging of Tube users has been pursued by the Liberal Democrats in the London Assembly.
> 
> “The current level of overcharging is totally unacceptable. There is something very seriously wrong when each and every week of the year Londoners are ripped off by more than £1 million,” said Caroline Pidgeon, Leader of the Liberal Democrat London Assembly Group, who chairs the transport committee. It is vital that TfL and the Mayor find a solution to stop so many passengers being ripped off.”


http://www.london24.com/news/transport/london_underground_oyster_card_revolution_1_959011


----------



## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *London Underground raises Tube staff pay offer*
> 
> *London Underground (LU) has increased its pay offer for workers to a 4.75% rise this year, which compares with 4.5% in its last offer.*
> 
> The five-year deal would see workers receiving pay rises of inflation plus 0.25% for each of the subsequent years. LU said the offer, which would run through next year's Olympic Games was "very fair and affordable".
> 
> Union sources said the latest offer would be considered before any response was given. LU also gave a further guarantee that should deflation occur, staff would be guaranteed a minimum 0.25% pay increase each year.
> 
> It said it had also sought to meet some of the unions' suggestions by making the system for allocating shifts on Bank Holidays more responsive to local need and by making it easier for qualified drivers on career breaks to return to work.
> 
> LU's chief operating officer Howard Collins said: "We met with the unions today and have made what we believe is a very fair and affordable multi-year pay offer to the trade unions that will enable our employees' salaries to keep pace with the cost of living and guarantees an increase in real terms over the life of the deal.
> 
> "At the same time it is realistic given the current economic situation and the pressure on Transport for London's finances."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14145009


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Parts of Circle and District lines to be suspended for 4 weeks*
> 
> *Upgrade works to improve the reliability of service, renew old infrastructure, and prepare for new trains are set to take place on one of the oldest sections of the Tube.*
> 
> It will mean that the District and Circle lines will be suspended between High Street Kensington and Edgware Road from 23 July to 23 August. Throughout the closure, various transport options will be available for passengers wishing to access the area.
> 
> Bayswater station is within easy walking distance of Queensway on the Central line, which will remain open throughout. In addition to local buses, passengers for High Street Kensington will still be able to access the station via District line trains from Earl’s Court or Circle line trains from Gloucester Road. Passengers for Notting Hill Gate will be able to access the station via the Central line.
> 
> Passengers for Paddington and Edgware Road will be able to use the Bakerloo line, and passengers for Baker Street will be able to use the Bakerloo and Jubilee lines.
> 
> The works will include track and drainage renewal and enabling works to accommodate the new longer air-conditioned trains (from six carriages to seven – with room for an additional 143 passengers per train), which will start operating on the Hammersmith & City and Circle lines from the end of 2012.
> 
> They will also include power upgrade works to support the new trains coming into service.Signal and track failures make up around 70% of the delays between Notting Hill Gate and Paddington as the poor condition of drainage means that excess water results in track circuits failing and therefore leads to signal failures.
> 
> The block closure means that the work can be carried out during a quieter period on the network, when around 25,000 fewer passengers a day use the District and Circle lines between High Street Kensington and Edgware Road.
> 
> Completing the work using weekend track closures only would mean at least 20 weekend closures spread across six months or more.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/14/parts-of-circle-and-district-lines-to-be-suspended-for-4-weeks/


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## PortoNuts




----------



## Acemcbuller

*Farringdon Underground/Thameslink station*

Can anyone point me at the plans for what Farringdon Underground/Thameslink station will be like when they've finished?
I only remember seeing stuff about the Farringdon Crossrail.
Will the Cowcross street remain entrance only at peak time like it is now for ever? What will the new facade on Turnmill Street look like?


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Farringdon will have everything: Tube, National Rail, Thameslink and Crossrail.


----------



## RedArkady

Maybe I'm being thick - what National Rail will it have apart from Thameslink?


----------



## CairnsTony

RedArkady said:


> Maybe I'm being thick - what National Rail will it have apart from Thameslink?


No you're not being thick. It will have great connections mind you.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Replacement DLR station at Pudding Mill Lane approved*
> 
> *Newham’s Strategic Development Committee has approved plans for a replacement Docklands Light Railway (DLR) station at Pudding Mill Lane. The existing Pudding Mill Lane DLR station is located where the Crossrail route reaches the surface and therefore a new station needs to be constructed.*
> 
> The replacement DLR station will be constructed immediately to the south, between the River Lea and City Mill River. The existing DLR station at Pudding Mill Lane will remain open to passengers until the new station is complete in 2013. Construction of the new DLR station will get underway later this year.
> 
> The new station will be purpose built to accommodate longer three-car DLR trains as well as providing improved step-free access. Outside the station, there will be a large open space which will link into wider pedestrian routes as well as providing connections with local bus routes.
> 
> Significant levels of development are taking place in the Pudding Mill Lane area and the station has been designed to accommodate future increases in passenger demand as well as to incorporate escalators at a later date.
> 
> Howard Smith, London Rail’s Chief Operating Officer said: “TfL welcomes the opportunity presented by Crossrail’s construction to provide DLR passengers with a brand new station at Pudding Mill Lane. The new station will be able to accommodate many more passengers than the existing station which will support future development as well as the future use of the Olympic stadium.”
> 
> The Crossrail Act 2008 granted outline planning permission for the replacement station, while allowing the London Borough of Newham to approve details in relation to external design and materials as well as boundary walls, fences and lighting.
> 
> Five new tunnel portals will be constructed as part of Crossrail at Royal Oak, Pudding Mill Lane, North Woolwich, Victoria Dock and Plumstead. The Crossrail works at Pudding Mill Lane involve the construction of 300m long tunnel portal structure and a 120m long approach ramp. It is these works which require the rebuilding of the existing DLR station further south.
> 
> The Pudding Mill Lane portal site will receive the tunnel boring machines (TBMs) which will create the Crossrail tunnels from Stepney Green. The first TBM will arrive at Pudding Mill Lane in spring 2014 and the second in summer 2014.
> 
> Once operational, Crossrail trains will emerge from the central section tunnels at Pudding Mill Lane, using the portal structure and ramp to join the Great Eastern Main Line to make their way towards Shenfield. DLR passengers will be able to interchange with Crossrail at Stratford station.
> 
> Enabling works for Pudding Mill Lane Portal started over a year ago and are on schedule to be completed at the end of 2011. Main construction for Pudding Mill Lane Portal is now underway. Due to the close proximity of the Crossrail worksite to the Olympic Park, work on Pudding Mill Lane Portal will be suspended during the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympics Games.


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/25/replacement-dlr-station-at-pudding-mill-lane-approved/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Sixteen London Underground stations get listed status*
> 
> *A group of London Underground stations clad in eye-catching ox blood red blocks that gave the tube its first corporate identity have been granted listed status by John Penrose, the culture minister.*
> 
> The Edwardian baroque buildings, granted grade II protection on the advice of English Heritage, include Oxford Circus, Covent Garden and Russell Square and have become familiar around the world to millions of visitors to the capital. In all 16 stations, including a group of later 1930s stations in an art deco style at St John's Wood, Perivale and Wood Green, were protected. Arnos Grove, Oakwood and Sudbury Town, designed by Charles Holden also in the 1930s for an extension to the Piccadilly line, were given the greater protection of Grade II* status. The moves mean 72 stations on the network are now listed.
> 
> "Millions of people pass through London's underground system every day, with little thought for the historic design and architectural features that are right under their nose as they hurry to catch their trains," said Penrose. "Tube stations are great examples of the capital's hidden heritage."
> 
> Opening in 1907, before the underground acquired its famous logo and its current burden of 1 billion passengers a year, the red-clad stations were among 40 designed by young architect Leslie Jones with a brief to create a recognisable identity for three new railways thrusting out into the suburbs that would become today's Northern, Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines.
> 
> His solution was to clad a relatively cheap steel frame, then a new technology from America, in distinctive deep red glazed blocks. For the interiors he chose bottle green tiles up to a decorative dado of acanthus leaves or pomegranate, details which remain in many of his stations today. The burden of his commission at such a young age affected his health and he died a year after the stations opened from tuberculosis, aged 33.
> 
> In the recommendation for listing, English Heritage inspectors said: "The distinctive red faience facades are instantly recognisable and count among the most iconic of London building types."
> 
> The deep red of some of the facades is now joined by the brighter red Coca-Cola facias above convenience shops, while others, such as the Argyll Street station entrance to Oxford Circus often go unnoticed by passengers focused on escaping the crush of shoppers on Oxford Street.
> 
> Any redevelopment plans in Transport for London's £10bn refurbishment programme will have to take the sites' heritage value into account, which London Underground indicated should not be a problem.
> 
> "Heritage is a very important part of our identity," said Richard Parry, commercial and strategy director at LUL. "The tube is undergoing a huge upgrade to its ageing infrastructure to cope with increasing demand, however, whenever we modernise a station we make sure to take care of the historical features."
> 
> Simon Thurley, chief executive of English heritage, said : "The London Underground not only set the standard for progressive transport systems, but has displayed a remarkable commitment to quality and consistency of design. From the distinctive and instantly recognisable glazed red facades of the early 20th century stations such as Belsize Park and Russell Square, to the modernist designs embodied in Arnos Grove and Sudbury Town, we have been left an amazing architectural inheritance. It is absolutely right that these stations be afforded the recognition and protection provided by listing."
> 
> The stations given Grade II status are: Aldwych, Belsize Park, Brent Cross, Caledonian Road, Chalk Farm, Chesham, Covent Garden, Hendon Central, Oxford Circus - originally two separate stations, Perivale, Redbridge, Russell Square, St John's Wood, West Acton, and Wood Green. Three other stations - Arnos Grove, Oakwood, and Sudbury Town - have been upgraded from Grade II to Grade II*.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/26/london-underground-tube-stations-listed


----------



## SO143

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fossie/5975314060/ by Fossie1


http://www.flickr.com/photos/ciaphotos/5978658087/ by Christopher









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5970535601/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/robep/5970891726/ by robep


----------



## PortoNuts

> *LU ticket machine upgrades make Oyster cards more accessible*
> 
> *Transport for London is making it ‘much faster and easier for passengers to buy and use Oyster’, by upgrading ticket machines that will sell Oyster cards directly, with credit loaded.*
> 
> By the end of July, ‘most stations’ across the London Underground network will have at least one ticket machine equipped to vend Oyster cards, Transport for London said. Passengers will be able to get their new cards at any time of the day from the clearly marked machines.
> 
> Since the ticket machine upgrade began in May, the new service has been an ‘instant hit’ with passengers. Already more than 25% of all new Oyster cards are bought from a ticket machine. Currently, more than half of all new Oyster card purchases at Aldgate East, Holland Park and Lambeth North have been from the machines.
> 
> At other stations, including Euston, King’s Cross, Belsize Park and Putney Bridge, more than a third of new Oyster card purchasers have chosen to do so by using the quick and easy ticket machines.
> 
> Richard Parry, London Underground’s Strategy & Commercial Director, said: “We have long known that the way customers use the Tube is changing, and we’re adapting to those changes. Customers have embraced Oyster in recent years, with just one in 20 Tube journeys now starting with a ticket office purchase.
> 
> “The ability to vend Oyster cards is a natural progression for the self-service machines across the Tube network which were also upgraded in 2010 to allow customers to buy tickets to a greater range of National Rail destinations, as well as with Railcard discounts.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/26/lu-ticket-machine-upgrades-make-oyster-cards-more-accessible/


----------



## trainrover

SO143 said:


>


To think nowadays it being possible to see your own shadow at Earl's Court


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Google maps London Underground*
> 
> *Web giant adds London's public transport network to its online map application. Plus, SAP integrates BI and collaboration data with Google Maps
> Londoners can now get public transport directions across their city using Google Maps, after Google plugged data published by Transport for London into its mapping software.*
> 
> In an announcement on Google's official blog, transit directions manager Thijs van As said TfL was one of the first European transport agencies to open its timetable data to the public.
> 
> "We’re strong supporters of open data and bringing information out into the open, and believe that making information publicly accessible can be an enormous engine of economic growth and innovation," van As said.
> 
> The news follows an announcement by enterprise software giant SAP that it has partnered with Google to provide deeper integrate with the web giant's mapping services.
> 
> SAP will offer improved integration between its Streamwork collaboration software and the BusinessObjects Explorer and Crystal Reports business intelligence tools with Google's mapping application programming interfaces (APIs).
> 
> This will allow SAP customers to apply their own information with Google Maps and Google Earth in a more sophisticated fasion than is currently possible. University campuses and industrial complexes would be able to provide Street View functionality inside their facilities, for example, while broadband providers could map customer complaints.


http://www.information-age.com/chan.../1644038/google-maps-london-underground.thtml



> *Google Maps goes Underground *
> 
> *Those making their way around London in the future can now do so with the help of Google Maps, which will provide information on all possible public transport connections between destinations. *
> 
> From today (July 28th), people will be able to use the Get Directions function on the service and click on a new train icon to work out their routes, helping them navigate their way between the more than 250 Underground stations and over 18,000 bus stops in the city. It is also possible to use this program on the go, thanks to Google Maps for mobile. When utilising the software with a handset, Maps will input the traveller's current location to work out the best way.
> 
> Android smartphones can also use the Transit Navigation (Beta) in Google Maps, which sends out alerts when it is time to get off the train or bus.
> 
> Ed Parsons, Google UK's geospatial technologist, told the London Evening Standard that a lot of processing has been done, with the company working hard over the last couple of years to perfect the service.


http://www.directnews.co.uk/news/google-maps-goes-underground-$21378217.htm


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Why preserve these London Underground hell holes?*
> 
> The Tube needs modernising – not Grade II architectural listing.
> 
> London Underground is pleased to announce that, due to signal failure at Cockfosters, trains are running 20 minutes late. We are sure passengers will welcome this opportunity to admire their beautiful surroundings at leisure.’’
> 
> Absurd? Of course it’s absurd. But no more absurd than this week’s announcement that 16 Underground stations have been given listed building status, bringing the number of listed Tube stations to a stupefying 72. Talk about conservation overkill. It’s like giving the entire cast of Coronation Street OBEs – the only difference being that people enjoy watching Coronation Street, whereas nobody in their right mind enjoys travelling on the Underground.
> 
> The trains are hell on wheels, the ticket halls are a zoo, the escalators are like something from Dante’s Inferno, the staff stopped smiling in 1955 and here we are congratulating ourselves because, back in 1906 or whenever the stations were built, the architects did the job they were paid to do. It’s a joke.
> 
> ...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...erve-these-London-Underground-hell-holes.html


----------



## iampuking

^^ That article is a load of bollocks.

The Leslie Green stations are beautiful and part of LU and London's iconography. Plus the lack of space has nothing to do with the architecture of these stations and all to do with the lack of available space in Central London.


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Certainly, I don't agree with most of it as well. LU is not just any underground system, it's an icon as well. However, I do agree that can't prevent modernisation.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Garden watering in London Underground stations*
> 
> *Garden watering is underway in London Underground stations as part of the Britain in Bloom initiative.*
> 
> Floral displays and vegetable patches have appeared in locations such as Greenford and Northolt and will be judged by a panel of experts.
> 
> A fruit and vegetable category has seen twice as many entrants as it did at its launch last year as part of the Capital Growth programme, which mayor Boris Johnson hoped would encourage more residents in the city to cultivate their own produce.
> 
> Set-ups that require the least garden watering or have recycled materials - such as in North Acton where old train sleepers have been re-used as flower beds or the wormery bin in Hampstead that creates liquid fertiliser - will be awarded with more points in the competition.
> 
> Chief operating officer for London Underground Howard Collins said: "With so many impressive entries I think it's going to be a difficult decision for the judges to choose the winners this year."
> 
> The Britain in Bloom initiative has encouraged horticultural activity across the nation, such as in Grimsby where schoolchildren grew allotments in wheelbarrows.


http://www.swelluk.com/news/800638669/garden-watering-in-london-underground-stations


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Full fleet of new Victoria line trains now in service*
> 
> *The 180 million passengers who use the Victoria line each year are now being served by a full fleet of brand new trains, following the successful phasing out of the old 1960′s stock.*
> 
> The new higher capacity trains are more accessible with wider doors and more spaces for wheelchair users, and on-board audio and visual electronic information for hard of hearing and visually impaired passengers.
> 
> They also feature CCTV in every carriage and are a crucial part of the upgrade of the line. Once work to remove the old signalling is complete next year the upgrade will mean a 21% increase in capacity – the equivalent of space for an extra 10,000 passengers per hour.
> 
> The completion of the roll-out of the new stock comes forty years after the Victoria line was completed from Victoria to Brixton in July 1971. The line was the first automated train line in the world and, with its ticket barriers and special new ticket machines – it was ahead of its time.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/08/01/full-fleet-of-new-victoria-line-trains-now-in-service/


----------



## PortoNuts

Brent Cross

by looper23 on Flickr.









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5997659678/sizes/l/in/photostream/


----------



## trainrover

^^ track renewal


----------



## iampuking

The Jubilee line is working on a new timetable that means the trains now take advantage of the new signalling, so people should notice faster journeys. However, I don't believe there is a frequency upgrade yet.


----------



## PortoNuts

Is the upgrade complete then? I thought the infamous 'Jubilee line misery' would last a lot longer.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Cycle, walk or work at home to free up Tube, commuters told*
> 
> *Londoners have been urged to walk or cycle to the office, or work from home, to ease overcrowding on the Tube during the Olympics.*
> 
> Up to three million extra journeys a day will be made as spectators travel to the Olympic Park in Stratford and outlying venues such as Lord's and Wembley - a 25 per cent increase on the 12 million trips by Tube, train and London bus on a typical weekday.
> 
> Transport minister Norman Baker urged Londoners to avoid peak times or change their routes to avoid pinch points during the 17 days of the Games, saying: "It's time to oil the creaking bike, dig out the walking boots, work out how to use the video conferencing equipment, and fire up the laptop," Stations such as Canary Wharf, Stratford, King's Cross, London Bridge and Waterloo are likely to be busiest, with transport chiefs keen to avoid adding to pressure on the Jubilee line.
> 
> They want to see the use of public transport fall 30 per cent to make up for extra journeys by 800,000 spectators a day, who will need to use the Tube or Javelin services from King's Cross to Stratford. The 55,000 athletes and officials will be driven in VIP "Games lanes".
> 
> A Freight Transport Association survey shows fewer than five per cent of delivery firms feel ready to deal with disruption during the Games. Risk of jams, stopping athletes reaching venues on time, is concerning transport chiefs.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s-urged-to-travel-differently-during-games.do


----------



## iampuking

PortoNuts said:


> Is the upgrade complete then? I thought the infamous 'Jubilee line misery' would last a lot longer.


Well it's not technically complete as the frequency isn't at 33tph (?) yet. But I believe most of the physical work is done.


----------



## PortoNuts

Lets see how the feedback is. Hope all those delays were worth it.


----------



## trainrover

urgel23 said:


> http://www.cityrailtransit.com/maps/london_map.htm


:weird: Queer, cartographer categorising airport pods rail.


----------



## SO143

*TfL denies CBS can end £1bn Underground contract before Olympics

Transport for London (TfL) has issued a remarkable retort to CBS Outdoor's plans to terminate its London Underground just weeks before the start of next year's Olympics as "entirely spurious".*

In a statement to Media Week, Richard Parry, TfL's London Underground director of strategy, refused to accept that CBS had any grounds to terminate the tube contract, believed to the biggest outdoor advertising contract in the world, which was due to run until the end of 2015.

He said: "CBSO's claims that they want to terminate their contract due to delays to the LU upgrade programme are entirely spurious. TfL is engaged in discussions with CBSO regarding the terms of the LU advertising concession. 

"We do not accept that CBSO is entitled to issue a Termination notice and will be making it clear to CBSO that it must honour its obligations under the contract. LU will vigorously defend CBSO’s claims and will seek to recover any losses as a result of CBSO’s action."

Earlier this year, CBS Outdoor announced it was preparing to take TfL to court, in a bid to claw back millions of pounds of advertising revenue the media owner believes it has lost due to delays in construction, among other things.

Tensions have been mounting between CBS Outdoor and TfL following the partnership forged after a competitive pitch process in 2006.

Richard Sauer, executive vice president, general counsel of CBS Outdoor, told Media Week that changes in the operation of the London Underground since the contract was agreed constitute an "adverse event".

"They have made it more costly for us to implement the conversion of our digital advertising network across the estate," he said. "Our expectation was that we would be allowed to complete the implementation of the network within an approximate two year period... this has not been the case and there is a clause in the contract designed to cover such an event."

The London Underground train network will play an essential role in ferrying more than five million visitors and Olympic ticket holders to the Games next summer. It will be vital for TfL, London Mayor Boris Johnson and Prime Minister David Cameron’s coalition government, that this dispute is settled satisfactory, avoiding the prospect of no posters or digital display ads across the network.

http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/News/Mos...es-CBS-end-1bn-Underground-contract-Olympics/


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

I've just spent five days in London this August and newly felt in love with its transit as I enjoied to travel around the city center and the suburbs with bus, underground and railways (as I was in Clapham I tried several services of Southern suburbs leading to Victoria and Waterloo)
And I finally brought the DLR that I personally find fantastic. Many Londoners complain it is too slow, but that was not my impression... maybe it is slower than Jubilee Line, expecially to reach Canary Wharf, but that's because of the stops which are less.

I wanted to bring the Overground as well, but when I tried it was closed (on Sunday) at least in Clapham Junction

P.S.
I went to London Transport Museum, erm, just to the shop, but I didn't look for Tubeman as i didn't inform I was there and it didn't seem fair to me to disturb him


----------



## CairnsTony

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I've just spent five days in London this August and newly felt in love with its transit as I enjoied to travel around the city center and the suburbs with bus, underground and railways (as I was in Clapham I tried several services of Southern suburbs leading to Victoria and Waterloo)
> And I finally brought the DLR that I personally find fantastic. Many Londoners complain it is too slow, but that was not my impression... maybe it is slower than Jubilee Line, expecially to reach Canary Wharf, but that's because of the stops which are less.
> 
> I wanted to bring the Overground as well, but when I tried it was closed (on Sunday) at least in Clapham Junction
> 
> P.S.
> I went to London Transport Museum, erm, just to the shop, but I didn't look for Tubeman as i didn't inform I was there and it didn't seem fair to me to disturb him


I'll be back there in October so will have the chance to do similar.:cheers:


----------



## trainrover

GENIUS LOCI said:


> the Overground as well, but when I tried it was closed (on Sunday) at least in Clapham Junction


Anybody feel like betting how much longer this closure'll stick around


----------



## mayflower232

*Siemens Unveils London Underground Concept Train*



> A design concept for a next-generation train for London Underground’s small-profile ‘tube’ lines was unveiled by Siemens during the Railtex exhibition.
> 
> Building on its successful role in supplying replacement bogies for Central Line and Waterloo & City Line stock, Siemens was asked by LU to develop a ‘concept train’ for the next round of replacement stock which will in due course be needed for the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines.
> 
> When LU last tendered for replacement trains for the Piccadilly Line, Siemens did not submit a bid – and indeed on that occasion the plans did not proceed. Now, however, according to Friedrich Timmer, Project Manager for Rolling Stock in the Mobility Division at Siemens, ‘we believe London Underground is ready for the next generation of trains’.
> 
> Comparing the concept train with the Bombardier stock now entering service on the Victoria Line, Siemens said that the future design would offer a 30 tonne weight saving with 11% more capacity. Featuring wide gangways between cars, the trains would be 30% more energy-efficient; even if air-conditioning were fitted, the trains would be 17% more energy-efficient, said Timmer.
> 
> Siemens has developed the concept as the basis of a product family adaptable for use on different LU lines. The design includes what Siemens terms an ‘iconic’ front end that it hopes may one day become a London landmark.
> 
> Timmer expects prequalification for the next-generation train procurement process to start in 2012.


----------



## Falubaz

^^ It doesnt look good.


----------



## trainrover

How well do the accordions on the new Metropolitan-line trains dampen the clatter, sound :?


----------



## iampuking

^Hideous thing.

In other news the DLR Stratford International extension opened this Wednesday. I'll do a write up with photos ASAP.

I also believe a (small) new ticket hall has opened at Green Park which enables step free access to all lines.


----------



## timo9

^^


----------



## trainrover

iampuking said:


> the DLR Stratford International extension opened


Had there been any bickering about extending the Jubilee Line to SI instead of the DLR :?


----------



## iampuking

trainrover said:


> Had there been any bickering about extending the Jubilee Line to SI instead of the DLR :?


Not really. The Jubilee line would've been far more expensive as they'd have to either switch over lines, or a new tunnel under Stratford Regional station would've had to be built. Also, the curves between Stratford and Stratford International would've been too tight for tube trains.


----------



## Christius Alerius

mayflower232 said:


> *Siemens Unveils London Underground Concept Train*


i don't like it, the sides are good, but the front is so ugly :bash:


----------



## iampuking

^^I don't even like the sides. I think they should keep the current LU livery with the blue skirting. It looks fresh and original and it fits in with LU aesthetics.


----------



## Trances

I must be the only one! I like it! Tube shapped at the front!


----------



## davidaiow

I've noticed over the last few days that the tube map has had a minor overhaul. Disabled stations are now split into two categories and the new DLR line is also shown. Much like the overground, I wish they were shown as separate routes, but oh well! Oyster rail services are now dotted lines instead of double line which I think is a large improvement too.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/oyster-rail-services-map.pdf


----------



## trainrover

Trances said:


> I must be the only one! I like it! Tube shapped at the front!


"Tube"? Didn't you mean Turbo-shaped 



trainrover said:


> ^^ advance to *3'19"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know, at this rate, Canada might as well as go for this one :dunno:


----------



## mulnella

Hello everybody. I am from New York City and I am going to be studying public transit in a variety of countries next year on a academic fellowship. One of them is London and cities in the UK. I was wondering if I could talk to any one of you and also count on meeting you when I am there next year. Thank you.

You could also email me at [email protected] or [email protected].


----------



## trainrover

What might you plan doing with your schooling thereafter, please?


----------



## mulnella

You mean after I do this academic study? I probably will try to go to grad school in urban planning/transportation studies.


----------



## Attus

*Sanding*

Hello,

can anyone tell me please whether underground and overground trains in London have sanding equipment (putting sand on the rail in order to avoid slippery) or not?


----------



## Darloeye

how much would that new Docklands lane cost ?


----------



## Tubeman

Attus said:


> Hello,
> 
> can anyone tell me please whether underground and overground trains in London have sanding equipment (putting sand on the rail in order to avoid slippery) or not?


There are dedicated Sandite trains used by both LU and Network Rail, but regular trains do not spread sand to my knowledge.

LU trains do have de-icing units (roughly 1/3 of units on most lines), which have de-icing fluid and sleet brushes.


----------



## Attus

Thank you!


----------



## Stofvdw

I'm not very familiar with the London Tube, but when I look at the maps, I always wonder why the DLR has not been extended with the short tube line "Waterloo-Bank". I think this would create a great transport link.

Are the tunnels too small?


----------



## sotonsi

yes, and too bendy, and everything is in the wrong place at Bank.


----------



## davidaiow

How much would it cost to rebuild bank from scratch with cross platform interchanges and clear walkways with travellators? Beyond the cost benefit ratio I'm guessing.


----------



## nr23Derek

davidaiow said:


> How much would it cost to rebuild bank from scratch with cross platform interchanges and clear walkways with travellators? Beyond the cost benefit ratio I'm guessing.


Probably cheaper to move the whole city of London financial district to a new site! It's a very confined space and a very busy station. 

Derek


----------



## iampuking

However they're planning to bore a new platform tunnel for the Northern line and convert one of the existing ones to a central passenger tunnel, which should improve passenger flow a lot.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Victoria Tube station escalator work ‘completed three months early’*
> 
> *Tube customers at Victoria station have full use of the busy interchange again after London Underground (LU) completed refurbishing the 42-year-old escalators in the main ticket hall three months ahead of schedule. The station is undergoing a £700m redevelopment, which will dramatically increase its size as well as improving accessibility for all.*
> 
> A new ticket hall, interchange passage, escalators and lifts will be completed by 2018 to enable the station to cope with increasing numbers of customers. The escalator work that has just been completed will mean more reliable operation of the station in the meantime as well as returning capacity for customers getting on and off the Victoria line.
> 
> The three escalators which run down to the Victoria line platforms and which include the second most-used escalator in the world with 21 million customers hopping on each year, were out of service one at a time, in sequence, while they were being worked on. LU engineers worked ‘around the clock to complete the work as quickly as possible to minimise disruption for customers, who were asked to use other stations as much as possible during the works’.
> 
> While the works were carried out ‘LU staff worked hard to help all customers including disabled passengers get to their destinations as quickly and easily as possible, arranging alternative routes or transport where necessary’.
> 
> Howard Collins, LU’s Chief Operating Officer, said: “We have worked flat out to get all the escalators refurbished and back in customer service early – and over three months ahead of schedule – well ahead of the London 2012 Games when there will be increased demand.
> 
> “This work was crucial as part of modernising and enlarging Victoria Tube station, which is one of the busiest stations on London Underground, with 80 million passengers a year, expected to reach nearly 100 million a year by 2016. While the works were carried out we brought in extra station staff to assist and all our staff did an excellent job helping all customers, including disabled customers get to their destinations as quickly and easily as possible, arranging alternative routes or transport where necessary.
> 
> “We would like to thank customers for their patience during these works which we carried out in this way to avoid completely shutting the station or non-stopping trains.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/10/19/victoria-tube-station-escalator-work-completed-three-months-early/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *London subway boss says no bag checks for Olympics*
> 
> *There are no plans to check people's bags on the London subway as part of extra security planned for the Olympics next year, the head of the city's transport system said Wednesday.*
> 
> The London Underground, known locally as the Tube, will be stretched to its limits during the Games. Critics of the aging and often overstretched system have expressed fears that additional security measures would further delay journeys.
> 
> But Peter Hendy, the commissioner for Transport for London, told The Associated Press that while authorities will take advice from the police, such additional checks are not envisioned. "It's almost giving in to terrorism," he said of the idea.
> 
> Hendy made the comments during an interview outlining plans to manage the huge increase in traffic expected on subways, trains and buses during the Games, which begin July 27 and end Aug. 12.
> 
> Surveillance camera use will be expanded for the Games, he said, although he offered no details on other security measures. Bag checks are expected to take place at venues hosting the competitions.
> 
> London suffered transit attacks in 2005, killing 52 commuters and four suicide bombers. Hundreds of thousands of spectators are expected to join the city's already busy subway, bus and rail system during the Olympics.
> 
> Around 6.5 billion pounds ($10.2 billion) has been invested in upgrading and extending transport links. Transport for London has held seminars and reached out to businesses in the city, meeting with managers and individual companies in hopes of altering work patterns and encouraging people to work from home.


http://www.boston.com/news/world/eu..._subway_boss_says_no_bag_checks_for_olympics/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Driverless Tube trains: Is this the end for drivers?*
> 
> *Driverless trains and ticketless technology will again be on the agenda as London Underground's (LU) 'Operational Vision' is due to be put in front of the Transport for London (TfL) board on Wednesday. *
> 
> Here's the paper itself (.pdf).
> 
> Its sub heading is 'Technology Enables Change' and it very broadly outlines what last week's leaked report described on the direction LU is heading. It's called 'emerging thinking'. It does admit cabless trains will probably be on the network by 2020.
> 
> The report says: "Given the technology available now, it is very unlikely that, after the procurement of the trains for the Sub Surface Lines, LU will ever again buy a fleet of passenger trains with conventional drivers' cabs.
> 
> "This means that the new generation of Tube train being developed for the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Central lines, to be introduced in the 2020s, could dramatically change the train staff operating model."
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15523336


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## mcarling

bbc.co.uk said:


> The report says: "Given the technology available now, it is very unlikely that, after the procurement of the trains for the Sub Surface Lines, LU will ever again buy a fleet of passenger trains with conventional drivers' cabs.
> 
> "This means that the new generation of Tube train being developed for the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Central lines, to be introduced in the 2020s, could dramatically change the train staff operating model."


Driverless trains can't come fast enough. Capricious drivers holding London hostage for rapacious wages deserve only retirement. Londoners deserve reliable transport.


----------



## PortoNuts

^^I think I'd still prefer people driving the trains.


----------



## _Night City Dream_

How long are train cars and trains on different lines?


----------



## Trances

As much I would rather have drivers, they must be replaced. They are out dated and how the city to ranson over wages and jobs when we are in need of improvement. Wish their could be an option to sack the lot and start over but replaced will suit too.


----------



## trainrover

PortoNuts said:


>


Misrepresentative (overly stretched).


----------



## PortoNuts

Trances said:


> As much I would rather have drivers, they must be replaced. They are out dated and how the city to ranson over wages and jobs when we are in need of improvement. Wish their could be an option to sack the lot and start over but replaced will suit too.


Like I said, I prefer drivers but DLR seems to work fine without them.


----------



## IanCleverly

trainrover said:


> Misrepresentative (overly stretched).


Isn't it just?


----------



## trainrover

That's better, thanks!

Strange, to be hearing squealing wheels on British rail so much more than any _clickety-clack_ nowadays (at London Bridge) :uh: What happened there?!?

Of all the new metro fleets around the world the last dozen years or so, London's S stock is the only one that's easy on the eyes 

Tell me, is there a leaf-clearing programme such that no leaf be left behind, period? :uh:

^^ clickable ...

It's startling to now see Montreal's and London's autumns synchronised.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Frost & Sullivan analyses London Underground upgrade*
> 
> *The London Underground (LU), one of the most prominent metro systems globally, is undergoing a major network upgrade programme.*
> 
> It is estimated that from 2011 to 2014/15, Transport for London (TfL) is investing approximately £1.4 billion annually for the Tube’s capital expenditure programme, including line upgrade activities such as re-signalling, new rolling stock procurement and track replacement. The sprawling network consists of nearly 402 km of track and 270 stations, performing approximately 4 million passenger journeys per day.
> 
> It carries approximately 1.10 billion passengers per annum, which is more than the yearly passenger journeys across the rest of the United Kingdom rail network put together.
> 
> With the Olympic and Paralympic Games taking place in London in 2012, the LU is projected to remain even more under intense scrutiny. “Restructuring a network as complicated and old as the LU is one fraught with great difficulties,” says Senior Research Analyst, Sudhakaran Jampala, from Frost & Sullivan.
> 
> “Since the beginning of the programme in 2003, the LU upgrade programme has been plagued by project delays and criticism for frequent line closures. TfL, however, is likely to move strongly towards complete transformation with effective objectives based project management procedures in place.”
> 
> Under the oversight of TfL, a new signalling system came into operation on the Jubilee line in June 2011, which has been converted to Automatic Train Control (ATC) using the Thales SelTrac S40 Communications-Based Train Control (CBTC) system.
> 
> The system is projected to increase capacity by 33 per cent before the 2012 Olympics, adding another 12,500 passengers per hour and reducing journey time by 22 per cent. On the Victoria line, the 1967 train stock has been replaced with Bombardier 2009 stock built in Derby.
> 
> The new trains allow the implementation of the Invensys Distance To Go – Radio (DTG-R) Automatic Train Protection (ATP) product, which would help to increase the number of trains per hour to 33 from 27, once the upgrade is complete.
> 
> By 2016, the LU will have also replaced over 40 per cent of its fleet on the 4 sub-surface railway (SSR) lines (District, Hammersmith & City, Circle and Metropolitan) and the ‘Deep Tube’ Victoria line, with a total of 1,778 Bombardier MOVIA metro trainsets. They contain features such as CCTV cameras, increased aisle width, passenger-driver two-way communication enabled emergency alarms, as well as air conditioning and walkthrough gangways.
> 
> “Once the upgrade of the Hammersmith & City and Circle lines is complete, capacity will increase by 65%, which is an additional 17,000 passengers an hour,” says Mr. Jampala.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/02/frost-sullivan-analyses-london-underground-upgrade/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *‘Revamped service information boards’ on Tube network*
> 
> *Customers on the Tube will be greeted with ‘clearer and more extensive travel information in stations from this week as redesigned service update information boards are rolled out across the network’, Transport for London had announced.*
> 
> The boards, which are located in the ticket halls of London Underground (LU) stations, have been revamped in response to customer research on how TfL could offer more information to passengers to enable them to get up-to-the-minute updates and make choices about their onward journey.
> 
> The new design will group any disrupted lines together at the top of the screen so that customers can see at a glance if their journey is likely to be affected. Disrupted lines will carry information alongside them to describe the extent and direction of the problem affecting them, rather than simply stating ‘minor’ or ‘severe’ delays as the current screen design does.
> 
> Unaffected lines will be listed below those that are disrupted, and the foot of the new-look screen will carry rotating messages giving more information around any service disruption. The changes will also be reflected in web and mobile phone page views.
> 
> Gareth Powell, LU’s director of strategy and service development, said:
> 
> “The key changes we’ve made mean that electronic service update information is now much clearer – these changes will allow customers moving quickly through a busy station to see at glance whether their line is affected, and give them the information they need to make an alternative travel choice if they wish to.
> 
> “Other train operating companies in the south-east are working together to improve customer information and Transport for London is assisting in that project, so that passengers on national rail within a certain distance of London could get live travel information at major interchanges and key stations.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/01/revamped-service-information-boards-on-tube-network/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Richard Tracey backs proposals for driverless Underground*
> 
> *London Assembly Conservative Group transport spokesman, Richard Tracey, has backed a report presented to the Transport for London Board that proposes to introduce driverless trains on the London Underground.*
> 
> Mr Tracey, who ‘first proposed that the Tube go driverless a year ago’ said: “When I first suggested the way forward for London Underground is to adopt driverless technology I was seen as maverick. So I am very pleased that my ideas for the Tube have become mainstream thinking for future investment plans.
> 
> “A driverless Underground would deliver safe, fast and efficient mass transit for London. It would usher in a step change in the way we get about our capital city and it should be embraced.
> 
> “Many other cities around the world, which have both new and old metro systems, run driverless trains. Indeed it’s nothing particularly revolutionary in London either: the DLR has been driverless since the 1980s and the Victoria, Central and Jubilee are all highly automated where drivers no longer actually drive the trains.
> 
> “Once upgrades are completed the Northern, Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines will operate in the same way too. So I endorse this Transport for London report. Driverless Tube? It can’t come soon enough.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/03/richard-tracey-backs-proposals-for-driverless-underground/


----------



## iampuking

_Night City Dream_ said:


> How long are train cars and trains on different lines?


Approximately...

Bakerloo: 7 x 16m cars = 112m
Central: 8 x 16m cars = 130m
Circle/H&C/District (Edgware Road - Wimbledon): 6 x 16m cars = 95m
District: 6 x 18m cars = 112m 
Jubilee: 7 x 18m cars = 126m
Metropolitan: 8 x 16m cars = 130m
Northern: 6 x 18m cars = 112m
Piccadilly: 6 x 18m cars = 112m
Victoria: 8 x 16m cars = 130m
W&C: 4 x 16m cars = 65m


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Underground could be running driverless trains as early as 2018*
> 
> *Three out of four Tube trains will be able to operate without drivers by 2018, Transport for London directors have been told.*
> 
> These include trains on all lines except Piccadilly, Bakerloo and Waterloo and City. A report presented to the TfL board said that once the new stock of trains for the sub-surface lines is complete it is "unlikely" Tube bosses "will ever again buy a fleet of passenger trains with conventional drivers' cabs", and upgrading the signalling systems meant "by 2018...some 70 per cent of the network will be automatic".
> 
> Plans for driverless trains across the network from 2020 were revealed by the Evening Standard last week.
> 
> London Assembly Tory group transport spokesman Richard Tracey said: "It makes total sense. Thirty cities around the world have driverless trains. They are perfectly safe."
> 
> But Caroline Pidgeon, leader of the Assembly Lib-Dem group and the transport committee, said the Assembly would need "absolute guarantees" about safety.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...running-driverless-trains-as-early-as-2018.do


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## IanCleverly

BBC Media Centre said:


> *BBC Two to take viewers underground in new observational documentary series*
> 
> Janice Hadlow announces a major new documentary series with unique access to London underground.
> 
> The 6x60 series, The Tube, takes viewers behind the scenes of the world’s oldest, biggest and busiest underground train network. Made by Blast! Films, the series will tell the inside story of one of the most critical moments in the tube’s history as the underground network undergoes the biggest upgrade of any railway system ever planned in the world.
> 
> Running a system built and designed in 1863 for the demands of the 21st Century is an extraordinary feat. The upgrade will be done under immense pressure to keep lines open and minimise the length of station closures.
> 
> Cameras will go to the places viewers have always wanted to see – behind the hoardings to reveal the massive new engineering works, inside the command centre to see what running this most complex of train sets is really like and illuminating a hidden underground world that only comes to life at night.
> 
> The series will meet the people who run and use the tube, from obsessive MD Mike Brown down to the litter collector who walks miles every night collecting rubbish off the track. And then of course there are the passengers – the tourists, the suburban commuters, the drunkards getting the last train home, the school outings, the buskers and the down and outs.


Continues Here

Digiguide also brings up an episode of 'Big, Bigger, Biggest' on the London Underground on the National Geographic Channel in December.



> DOCUMENTARY: Big, Bigger, Biggest
> Channel: National Geographic
> Date: Sunday 4th December 2011
> Time: 22:00 to 23:00 (starting in 28 days)
> Duration: 1 hour.
> London Underground Revealed. Special Episode 1.
> Documentary series examining the technology behind some of the largest feats of engineering in the world.
> (Dolby Stereo, Widescreen)


----------



## IanCleverly

Full Victoria Line ride


----------



## PortoNuts

> *London Underground unveils proposals to boost Bank capacity*
> 
> *Plans that would see the creation of wider platforms, better access to lines and step-free access to a new ticket hall at one of the Tube’s busiest stations will go on public display from today.*
> 
> London Underground (LU) will showcase the proposals for the Bank station capacity upgrade project from 8 to 11 November at an exhibition in the City as part of the consultation on the plans.
> 
> *The proposed project aims to relieve congestion and increase capacity at Bank and Monument, the fourth busiest interchange on the Tube network, with a range of solutions that would ease overcrowding:*
> 
> - A new southbound Northern line running tunnel that will create extra space to reduce crowding on the platforms
> 
> . A new Northern line concourse with additional interchange passageways and escalators to the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) and Central line
> 
> - Lifts to a new ticket hall in King William Street to provide step-free access between street level, the Northern line and DLR.
> 
> - LU’s application for a Transport Works Act Order will be submitted in late 2012 and, if granted, construction would begin in 2015 with completion scheduled for 2021.
> 
> David Waboso, LU’s Director of Capital Programmes, said: “Bank is one of the busiest stations on the network and we’ve been working closely with the City of London Corporation on plans to create more capacity at this important interchange.
> 
> “Most of the work will be below the ground and we’ll keep disruption to a minimum during construction, but it’s important that the public have the chance to comment on what we’re proposing to improve their Tube network.”
> 
> Members of the project team will be available to answer any questions about the proposals at an exhibition at 10 King William Street, London EC4N 7TW.


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/08/london-underground-unveils-proposals-to-boost-bank-capacity/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## trainrover

^^ file's corrupted




IanCleverly said:


>


^^ Is this one also corrupted or do passengers really not choke from apparent mustiness (2' to 5', approximately)? :? besides, I can't remember the last time I boarded an empty car ...


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Tube to test driverless trains in four years*
> 
> *Driverless Tube trains could be running in a trial by 2015 - three years sooner than expected, confidential London Underground documents reveal today. The Waterloo & City line, the direct one-stop link between Waterloo mainline station and Bank, will be tested first, followed by the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Central lines.*
> 
> The document, seen by the Evening Standard and headed "Introduction to Deep Tube Programme", lists W&C line trials as starting in 2015 with Bakerloo line trials a year or two later. It states the "feasibility stage" of the overall plan "is focusing on an initial trial implementation on the W&C line".
> 
> It "provides an opportunity to transform London Underground operation enabled by technology".
> 
> The plan for driverless trains and wholescale changes to LU - including axing 1,500 more staff and scrapping all but 30 of the 250-plus ticket offices - will now form a major campaign issue in the run-up to the mayoral election. Changes have led to union claims of stations being left unstaffed.
> 
> Mayoral candidate Ken Livingstone pledged "there will be a driver in every train and staff at every station" if he is re-elected. Bob Crow, the RMT union leader, said: "Put it in your manifesto that there will be a driver on every train and you will win."
> 
> He said: "Far from the 'blue sky thinking' LU were banging on about when we leaked their plans two weeks ago we now find the programme is at an advanced stage and ready to kick off in four years' time. This whole policy is being driven for political purposes by Tory Mayor Boris Johnson and the RMT believes that even his own officials know that it is madness."
> 
> He promised that the RMT would lead the "most strenuous and high-profile campaign" against the "reckless gamble" to change the Tube.
> 
> A Transport for London spokesman said: "The design specification for the next generation of Deep Tube trains is currently under development and is expected to feature technologies to reduce vehicle weight, improve energy efficiency and the possibility of air conditioning. Components and systems would of course require testing prior to introducing a new train, but the project remains in the early stages of planning."
> 
> Mr Johnson's spokesman said: "As technology changes it is right the London Underground should explore how they can run services in the most efficient, reliable and best possible way for the millions of passengers they carry every day."


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...be-to-test-driverless-trains-in-four-years.do


----------



## iampuking

trainrover said:


> ^^ file's corrupted
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ Is this one also corrupted or do passengers really not choke from apparent mustiness (2' to 5', approximately)? :? besides, I can't remember the last time I boarded an empty car ...


The tube is pretty musty but not _that_ musty. Never have I noticed a strong mist appearing when on the tube, it must be a problem with the camera.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## trainrover

Who's gonna christen the tube by filming its tunnels in infrared :naughty:


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Thought the same, away with the darkness. :cheers:


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## trainrover

^^ When London fleets were easy on the eyes.


----------



## iampuking

trainrover said:


> Who's gonna christen the tube by filming its tunnels in infrared :naughty:


Buy the video125 driver's eye views. The tunnel sections are not filmed in infrared AFAIK but you can see far more.



trainrover said:


> When London fleets were easy on the eyes.


Do you not like the looks of the new rolling stock? I like them.


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## trainrover

Only the S stock ... the other ones appear 'overly' lavish :dunno:


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## iampuking

Lavish? I wouldn't go that far... They seem pretty spartan to me.


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## trainrover

Then I ought to have written cluttered instead of lavish (lines, ridges, mismatchings, etc.). E.g., the S stock has a clean appearance whereas the D stock strikes me as too bare, bland -- I don't know how to articulate this.

Nothing seems to have been spared in the S stock interiors, mind you, (e.g., arm rests have been retained) they still look plush to me.


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## sotonsi

While not having 60-year-old suspension means the ride quality is better than A stock, the seats have far less cushioning, and from out in the zones that used to not be numbered it starts to be noticeable that the chair you are sitting on isn't that nice to sit on for long.

They are far from plush.

One imagines that leisure travellers from Rickmansworth out will start to use timetables more and make sure they go on Chiltern trains and avoid the Met. This is exacerbated by the move to have off-peak Met trains run semi-fast, rather than fast, from next month.


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## trainrover

Ouch! I hear you, sotonosi, demotions to semi-fast and all hno:

Which leads me to ask, any chance of somebody posting pics/vids of the fast lanes (I seem to remember --Marylebone ones aside-- six-tracking TfL segments) :?


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## sotonsi

There's a short bit of 6-tracking near and through Wembley Park (between, to the south, where the Met fast and slow lines merge/diverge and, to the north, where the Jubilee dives under).

Harrow-on-the-Hill nearly has a similar thing, but Southbound Chiltern line through the station (platform 2) shouldn't really count - while maintained by TfL, it cannot see any TfL services (platform 1 doesn't usually, but it is actually possible for Met line services to use it)

Obviously the Chiltern tracks run alongside the LU ones from south of West Hampstead to Harrow South Junction (where they become LU ones), making 6 tracks in total.


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## trainrover

If so, when did they eliminate the fasts running Saturdays (I can't remember if they ran Sundays, back in the day...)? (I remember the first two stops to the outbound fasts being Harrow on the Hill, then Moor Park.)


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## sotonsi

I guess the last timetable change (not leaf-fall). They aren't totally gone - I took a fast out of Baker Street on a Sunday recently (they always existed).

I took a semi-fast in to Baker Street on that Sunday, and what was weird was the GPS service announcements - at Amersham, trains on platform 2 - which do occasionally reverse there, without using the siding) have 'Fast Baker Street' on the side, and even make an announcement saying that this was a fast Baker Street train (the train did it, not the station), when in reality it was a terminating train that was going to the siding, before reversing there. Next, during a over-long wait at Rickmansworth, the LED screens in the train declared that the terminus had been changed, and that it was now heading to Baker Street, with annoucements declaring it an all stations train. It then did a similar thing at Harrow, saying that the next stop was Wembley Park. I'm fairly sure that nothing changed, and it was always meant to be semi-fast, but it's a bizarre way of doing it. The system needs some improvements - most importantly, not getting people going over the bridge at Amersham (and back) for no reason.


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## PortoNuts




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## trainrover

Sounds like shadow administration (hello, is anybody _in_ there?!?), sotonsi. Does the GPS in GPS service anouncement stand for global positioning system ... if so, I guess this goes to show that Earth's become a shadow world hno:


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## PortoNuts

> *Sub Surface Renaissance*
> 
> *Considerable publicity has already emerged on the new S stock trains being delivered to the Metropolitan Line. However, these are only part of a massive overall programme to upgrade all of London Underground’s sub surface lines. With a variety of ageing rolling stock, and some signalling systems that date back to the 1940s, the lines are overdue for modernisation.
> *
> Hedley Calderbank is the Upgrade Sponsor within London Underground (LU) to ensure that the project plans are financially on course to deliver all the required benefits to LU’s business.
> 
> He gave the rail engineer a fascinating insight into the project, its planning and delivery.
> 
> *The business plan*
> 
> In the PPP era, the two organisations awarded the contracts were required to put forward plans for major improvement works. Metronet, responsible for the Sub Surface Railway (SSR), was committed to a complete upgrade of trains and signalling on all those routes as a single project.
> 
> The existing track layouts had been unchanged for years – some even dated back to the loco hauled days of the Metropolitan Railway. Piecemeal renewals had kept everything largely unchanged as this had been the simplest thing to do.
> 
> As a result, many track layouts were less than optimised for the existing train service while the capabilities of both signalling and rolling stock fell well short of LU’s aspirations for capturing more traffic. The PPP organisational structure has been overtaken by events, but it was the catalyst for developing the SSR scheme as a single entity embracing the Metropolitan, District, Circle and Hammersmith & City lines.
> 
> The ensuing business case for the upgrade has been based around a number of elements:
> 
> - Shorter journey times for passengers – entry gate to exit gate
> 
> - Faster trains with better acceleration
> 
> - Provision of more frequent trains, thus giving less waiting time on station platforms
> 
> - Higher speeds on the Metropolitan line out in the north-west suburbs
> 
> - Fulfilment of suppressed demand because of existing service limitations
> 
> *Considerable work has gone into proving that the business case is robust. The peak number of trains per hour on every route will be increased as follows:*
> 
> - Metropolitan Line – from 21 to 28
> 
> - Circle and Hammersmith & City (central section) – from 28 to 32
> 
> - District (central section) – from 28 to 32
> 
> - Hammersmith & City – from 7 to 16, already partially achieved by the extended Circle line
> 
> - District Line branches – by 1 train on each
> 
> Many of these additions are interdependent but, once the existing signalling has been replaced, the peak passenger capacity of the network will be increased by more than 30%.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/09/sub-surface-renaissance/


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## PortoNuts

2012 Cable Car

by *meharris75*.


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## PortoNuts

And some signage. 

by* meharris75*.


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## PortoNuts




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## makita09

trainrover said:


> Ouch! I hear you, sotonosi, demotions to semi-fast and all hno:
> 
> Which leads me to ask, any chance of somebody posting pics/vids of the fast lanes (I seem to remember --Marylebone ones aside-- six-tracking TfL segments) :?


Is this what you're after?


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## PortoNuts




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## trainrover

Partially, makita09, although the journey you're sharing down my memory lane's really pleasant  I must be wishing for a fast, i.e., thinking of the six-tracking both ends of Wembley Park and Finchley Road stations (can't remember :uh

I've just stumbled onto this one ...






and am about to check it out: The Sonic Tube Map


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## Acemcbuller

Something has been bugging me 
To my ears the S-Stock door opening alert bleeps (for example at 1minute in) are very similar to the refrain in the piece of music Carnival De Paris (for example at 30 seconds in), often associated with football.

What do you think?
I now can't ride the trains without thinking about it! 

Perhaps they should do a special version for taking fans to Wembley to see England play!


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## PortoNuts




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## Rational Plan

trainrover said:


> For a remodelling job, ain't that mighty pricey, even if the interchange covers six or so lines? :uh:


https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bank/consult_view




























It's quite a big scheme.


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## PortoNuts

^^That's what I thought. When they say regeneration/boost capacity it's usually much more than lifts.


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## PortoNuts

> *Northern Line extension to Nine Elms regeneration zone 'could deliver billions' to UK economy*
> 
> *Extending the London Underground's Northern Line to the Nine Elms regeneration area could deliver a multi-billion pound growth injection to the UK economy, an independent study is expected to show. *
> 
> Preliminary findings from the Volterra Partners report indicate that a two station tube extension could maximise development in Vauxhall Nine Elms, adding an extra 17,000 jobs and 7,500 homes to the area-wide regeneration programme.
> 
> The new jobs and homes could generate approximately £4.5 billion in tax receipts for the Treasury at today’s prices, the study claims. And if, as expected, more overseas investors take a stake in the regeneration zone the returns could be significantly higher.
> 
> The Northern Line Extension (NLE) would improve transport capacity throughout the Vauxhall Nine Elms area with stops at Wandsworth Road and Battersea Power Station. It will also relieve pressure at Vauxhall station.
> 
> Battersea Power Station would become the focus for a new town centre with 66,000 square metres of retail, restaurant and cafe space – more than Clapham Junction and Wandsworth town centres. According to Wandsworth Council, the construction of the new underground extension would be funded largely through a levy on private development sites in the Vauxhall Nine Elms Opportunity Area.
> 
> Two years of detailed planning and design work are already complete and the scheme received widespread backing during its first and second round public consultation. A formal planning application – called a Transport and Works Act Order – could be submitted in 2012 and the Tube link open for business by 2018.
> 
> Leader of Wandsworth Council, Ravi Govindia, said: “Volterra’s work has sought to quantify the enormous benefits this scheme has to offer the UK economy and the vital role it can play in delivering growth. It's not just about regenerating the power station site, the NLE will drive growth throughout the whole Vauxhall Nine Elms area which is set to deliver a total of 16,000 homes and 25,000 jobs.
> 
> “No other scheme in the capital could match this potential and no other project is so far advanced.”
> 
> The Volterra study has been commissioned by Transport for London and Wandsworth and Lambeth Councils. The finalised report will be published on the council’s website at www.wandsworth.gov.uk/nineelms
> 
> The Vauxhall Nine Elms Opportunity Area includes 450 acres of land between Battersea Park and Lambeth Bridge on the South Bank of the Thames.
> 
> The Mayor’s London Plan anticipates a total of 16,000 new homes and 25,000 new jobs will be created here if the transport capacity can be increased. Work is now underway on major developments in the area including St George's Vauxhall Tower scheme and St James Group's Riverlight development (formerly known as Tideway Wharf).
> 
> Outline planning permission has been granted for the new American Embassy and Treasury Holding's Battersea Power Station scheme.


http://www.24dash.com/news/local_go...ion-zone-could-deliver-billions-to-UK-economy


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## PortoNuts




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## DanielFigFoz

They're saying on the BBC that it looks like they're gonna make a new branch of the Northern Line a couple of stops to Battersea


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Indeed. It would be excellent.



> *Green signal for Northern line extension and 25,000 new jobs*
> 
> *New moves to create thousands of jobs in London by securing the long-awaited Northern line extension to Battersea will be unveiled in tomorrow's growth review, the Standard has learned.*
> 
> A range of incentives will be announced to sign up developers, including an offer to create an Enterprise Zone around the historic site of Battersea Power Station. Construction of the Tube spur from Kennington via the Nine Elms redevelopment to Battersea's prime site will change the face of south London.
> 
> Costing between £750 million and £950 million it will generate between 16,000 and 25,000 jobs and thousands of new homes, cafés and business premises in the heart of the capital.
> 
> George Osborne, the Chancellor, wants a deal struck by 2013 ready for construction to begin in 2015. A Treasury source said: "The entire weight of the Government is being thrown behind the extension of the Northern line." Talks will be held with pension funds and even the Chinese sovereign wealth fund about investing in the scheme.
> 
> The offer of an Enterprise Zone, which would lure small businesses to the site with the promise of tax breaks, is one of the major new incentives. The Mayor and other local authorities may be allowed to borrow hundreds of millions of pounds from the private sector against the future income stream from business rates or a special levy.
> 
> The plans will be contained in the growth review which will be at the heart of Mr Osborne's Autumn Statement tomorrow. Downgraded growth forecasts and unemployment are expected to dominate the headlines but other key announcements are expected to include:
> 
> Tube and bus fare increases in London will be held down to 6.2 per cent rather than 7.2 per cent on average in January, through £130 million of extra funding to Transport for London.
> 
> Rail fares nationally will also rise by 6.2 per cent, rather than the planned average of 8.2 per cent.
> 
> An extra £5 billion of cuts will fall on public spending, in order to finance an extra £5 billion of investment in big infrastructure projects, like power stations and road-building. Overall, the Chancellor will promise £30 billion for spending on big projects, two-thirds coming from pension funds. Money will be clawed back from projects that have not got off the ground yet, such as a delayed carbon capture scheme under Energy Secretary Chris Huhne.
> 
> New economic figures will show growth slowing down to about one per cent this year and next, with the structural deficit now taking until 2016/17 to eradicate, an extra two years compared with last year's plan. One think tank, the Paris-based OECD thinks Britain is already falling back into a mild recession.
> 
> Around £20 billion will be used to create cheaper loans for small firms employing fewer than 50 people under the promised "credit easing" policy. Loans will be made by banks but underwritten by the Treasury. Treasury minister Danny Alexander promised tough crackdowns on tax dodgers to help fund spending on jobs.
> 
> *Nine Elms to the West End in 11 minutes*
> 
> *The Northern line extension would run from Kennington to new stations at Nine Elms and Battersea and would form a continuation of the Charing Cross branch.*
> 
> Completion would bring Nine Elms within about 11 minutes' journey time of the West End and City. Nine Elms is by far the biggest regeneration project in central London - a 200-acre expanse with the long-abandoned hulk of Battersea Power Station at its heart and the longest remaining undeveloped stretch so close to the West End.
> 
> It has already attracted major new tenants, notably the US embassy, and the area's planning framework anticipates up to 16,000 new homes.
> 
> Chelsea football club have also appointed architects to draw up plans for a new stadium close to the power station for up to 60,000 spectators. But developers and landowners have always insisted that the vision cannot be fully realised without a direct Tube link into the centre.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...northern-line-extension-and-25000-new-jobs.do



> *Northern Line: Government backs Tube extension plan*
> 
> *Chancellor George Osborne has backed plans to extend the Northern Line to Battersea in south London, which he says could create 25,000 jobs. In his Autumn Statement he said the government would support the scheme, in partnership with the private sector.*
> 
> He also said they would work with London's mayor on options for new Thames river crossings.
> 
> Ways to maintain the UK's aviation hub status, excluding a third runway at Heathrow, would be explored, he said. The multi-billion-pound programme of funding for infrastructure projects is designed to get Britain's economy moving.
> 
> *'Green' energy*
> 
> Last year the Mayor of London Boris Johnson gave his approval to build two Tube stations on the Northern Line as part of a £5.5bn revamp of Battersea Power Station. It is hoped the redevelopment of Battersea Power Station, which will include shops, office space and leisure facilities, will create 25,000 jobs and the construction of 16,000 homes.
> 
> The landmark will be restored to generate green energy in the future, but its chimneys will be demolished and rebuilt, as they are "beyond repair". The Grade II listed building opened in 1933 and generated power until 1983.
> 
> Restoration of the main power station, including rebuilding the chimneys, will be completed by 2016.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15937031


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Tube's 'green' line will help to clear the air*
> 
> *The Tube is going green in a bid to trap pollution from passing vehicles and improve air quality on one of London's busiest roads.*
> 
> Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor's environment adviser, unveiled a 200squaremetre wall featuring 15 plant varieties at Edgware Road station. Transport for London said previous studies have shown vegetation has the ability to remove enough harmful pollution particles from the atmosphere to significantly improve air quality. The wall's impact will be monitored by scientists from Imperial College London.
> 
> The initiative is part of Boris Johnson's plans to put plants, trees and greenery on some of London's busiest roads and comes after 50 plant towers were installed on Lower Thames Street. Some 200 lime trees have already been planted along the A40.
> 
> The Mayor said: "Delivering cleaner air for London is a top priority for me."


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ubes-green-line-will-help-to-clear-the-air.do


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## PortoNuts

S8 Stock - Finchley Road

by Green, Cream & Tangerine livery on Flickr.









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6406663577/sizes/l/in/photostream/


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## trainrover

Would've been a great photo had the cab been more toward the (our) left ...


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## PortoNuts

> *Are trains without drivers a good thing for London’s commuters?*
> 
> *Transport for London is considering plans to roll out driverless tube trains across the Underground network by 2020. This week we ask: are trains without drivers a good thing for London’s commuters?*
> 
> *No
> Bob Crow, General Secretary, RMT*
> 
> ‘If you want to know why RMT and the other tube unions are so opposed to the idea of driverless operation on London Underground, take a look at press cuttings from the incident on the Washington DC Metro in June 2009, where nine people died after a crash involving automated trains. The inquest into the deaths was damning and found that it was a combination of cuts to inspections and maintenance, alongside a dash for automation, that led to the tragedy. Train operators were soon returned to the DC Metro and have remained there ever since.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Yes
> Mike Brown, Managing Director, London Underground*
> 
> ‘The tube is carrying record numbers – more than a billion passengers each year – and demand continues to rise. However, parts of the network are very old – some date back to the 1860s, and we have the oldest trains running anywhere in the UK. Without upgrading, the tube would eventually grind to a halt. That’s why we are rebuilding the network. ‘We must consider how new technologies can help us meet that demand and provide safe, more frequent and reliable services. London Underground has always been an innovator. Now is the time – as we plan the purchase of our next fleets – to consider the next generation of automatic signalling systems, in which trains are ‘driven’ from a control centre rather than a traditional driver. This allows trains to be run closer together – increasing frequency and capacity.
> 
> ...


http://now-here-this.timeout.com/2011/11/27/face-off-trains-without-drivers/


----------



## trainrover

7869718
^^ :lol:​


----------



## trainrover

25480742
^^ just be patient ​


----------



## Darloeye

^^^^ What was the point of that ? 

Do you have any video's of inside or information about what was going on ?


----------



## trainrover

Inanimate objects cannot take a possessive case


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## PortoNuts

> *Design study commissioned for air-conditioning on the Tube*
> 
> *Transport for London has ‘indicated its determination’ to find a solution to the long standing problem of introducing air conditioned trains on deep level lines by commissioning a two-stage concept design study which will look at the suitability of air conditioning systems on the Underground.*
> 
> Commencing next June and running until January 2013 the first stage will examine if it is feasible for new rolling stock to be fitted with conventional air-conditioning units. If this proves to be too problematic, Stage 2 will commence in January 2013 which will study the possibility of using an ice storage concept to cool the Tube down.
> 
> This study will continue until November the same year. The main problem facing engineers is how to cope with the huge amount of hot air that conventional air-conditioning systems would dump back into the tunnels.
> 
> The results will be used to determine the specific requirements of the new Piccadilly and Bakerloo line trains. A prototype train for use on the deep level lines will be introduced by 2015.
> 
> Currently the only air-conditioned trains on the London Underground network are the Bombardier built Metropolitan line trains.
> 
> These have provided a welcome relief for many passengers during periods of humid weather and are a vast improvement on the old stock, the last of which is due to be scrapped by next summer.


http://www.rail.co/2011/12/01/design-study-commissioned-for-air-conditioning-on-the-tube/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




----------



## IanCleverly

Me said:


> Digiguide also brings up an episode of 'Big, Bigger, Biggest' on the London Underground on the National Geographic Channel in December.





> DOCUMENTARY: Big, Bigger, Biggest
> Channel: National Geographic
> Date: Sunday 4th December 2011
> Time: 22:00 to 23:00
> Duration: 1 hour.
> London Underground Revealed. Special Episode 1.
> Documentary series examining the technology behind some of the largest feats of engineering in the world.
> (Dolby Stereo, Widescreen)


Got around to watching this on Monday, was good to watch, and also includes sections on the New York Subway (why it chose Electric trains over steam), the Paris Metro (how Saint-Michel station was 'sunk') and the Canary Wharf Crossrail station.

There's a rather basic website Here, or it's 'obtainable' via a well known documentary based torrent site.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *District line ‘timetable improvements from this weekend’*
> 
> *Additional peak trains for the 200,000 Wimbledon branch passengers each day will bring fewer delays and extra capacity. A new timetable comes into effect on the District Line this Sunday which will increase frequency, reliability and capacity.*
> 
> The changes will include five additional trains on the busy Wimbledon branch providing space for 4,000 extra passengers during the morning peak, more trains during the evening service with six trains per hour until 23:30hrs and an additional train on the Ealing Broadway branch to get an extra 800 customers home during the evening peak.
> 
> The changes were the subject of a major consultation exercise earlier this year, in which nearly 18,000 customers, local business and stakeholders took part, almost 80 per cent of whom were in favour. The timetable has been designed to improve service for the 200,000 passengers who travel on the Wimbledon branch of the District line each day.
> 
> In particular, the removal of the poorly used weekday Olympia service will deal with bottlenecks in the Earl’s Court area which currently hold up more than 20 percent of District line trains entering Earl’s Court behind an Olympia train.
> 
> This wait in the tunnel, at one of the one of the most complex junctions on the Tube network, will be reduced, directly speeding up journeys for the 150,000 customers who are affected by delays at the station.
> 
> Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said: “Hundreds of thousands of passengers will benefit from this practical and pragmatic change to markedly improve the most congested part of the tube network.”
> 
> Howard Collins, LU’s Chief Operating Officer, said: “The introduction of the new timetable in December will reduce delays across the whole line and, in particular, benefit the 150,000 passengers who are affected by delays at Earl’s Court each day by reducing congestion in the area.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/12/06/district-line-timetable-improvements-from-this-weekend/


----------



## iranair777

iranair777 said:


> I'm not sure if anyone remembers it, but its worth a shot. If I recall correctly, about 2003/2004 and that time period there was this london underground game That I played (in school when we were bored  ) which was available on the TFL site. It then suddenly vanished and I have never managed to find it. iirc it was to do with controlling underground trains and to control a train to line up with the platform and such. Thats all I remember from it tbh


Just to bump this slightly as I am quite eager to know


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## trainrover

PortoNuts said:


>


Does the centre chap suffer tennis elbow ... and play with a pair of raquets? :sly: FFT: The state of their pub made me stop it ⅓ of the way through it hno:


----------



## trainrover

PortoNuts said:


>


FFT: It's :weird: how no journalist identified *any* cause of the anticipated 30-minute waits ...


----------



## PortoNuts

*2012 Cable Car*

by *wawd*.


London Cable Car by wawd, on Flickr


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## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

Newly reopened Northern Line platforms at Tottenham Court Road.

by looper23 is moving house. A limited service only. on Flickr.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Olympic VIPs should use the tube as well as cars, says Boris Johnson*
> 
> *Boris Johnson has said sporting dignitaries such as Sepp Blatter should get on the tube during the 2012 Olympic Games as he sought to play down a vision of London gridlocked, rising in expense and "dominated by the whizzing limousines of Olympic bureaucrats" next summer.*
> 
> Johnson signalled plans to restrict the use of lanes reserved exclusively for Olympic transport amid fears that traffic congestion and delays caused by the Games will trigger a "stampede" of irate Londoners and businesses leaving the city for the duration.
> 
> He insisted that warnings that the Olympics will bring chaos to Britain's transport networks are like a millennium bug rumour that will never materialise. The London transport commissioner, Peter Hendy, said last month that some hotspots would need a 60% reduction in normal traffic to avoid severe congestion during the Games.
> 
> But with London preparing to enter into an Olympic year in just under three weeks' time, the mayor turned on "gloomadon-poppers", who warn "that the capital will be gridlocked, expensive and dominated by the whizzing limousines of Olympic bureaucrats throwing up roadspray in the faces of the tramping and ticketless multitudes" of Londoners.
> 
> He said that the Olympic route network around the capital will take up 1% of London's roads, and the Games lanes reserved exclusively for Olympic transport "only a fraction of that 1%". These will only be in operation for 16 days "with a couple of days either side to set them up", he said, stressing that most people in most parts of London would not even be aware of the Olympic routes.
> 
> "I genuinely believe that when the games are under way, we will look back at the anxieties as a kind of millennium bug that never materialised because most people travelling in most parts of London will not even notice that the route network exists," Johnson said, in an address to a London policy conference on the city's South Bank.
> 
> He urged businesses – from taxi drivers to theatres – to stay in the capital and profit from the £1.2bn extra spending Johnson said was anticipated for the capital during this period.
> 
> "I don't think it would be a good idea to shut up your coffee shop or put a tarpaulin over your taxi and head for Greece – whatever the value of the Greek currency." He added: "I believe there is still plenty of time for London business to prepare, plan and profit from the Games."
> 
> Johnson later said Transport for London was in discussion with the London Olympics organising body, Locog, about trying to restrict vehicle access permits – VAPS – to as "few people as we realistically can".
> 
> Asked whether he intended to bar VIPs from using the special lanes, Johnson told journalists: "Obviously, there is a limit to the restrictions you can place, but I do think we have put fantastic amounts of cash into our transport network. We have got an amazing upgrade of the tube going on ... why shouldn't they go by public transport?"
> 
> He added that among those entitled to use the Games lanes were journalists, who could easily make use of the improved public transport available.
> 
> "I would respectfully say to journalists ... there is public transport, and I would say to Sepp Blatter, all these people, all the IOC [International Olympic Committee]: why not use public transport? You will enjoy it and find it quick and convenient."
> 
> He also gave hope to those still without a seat at any of the Olympic events. "You would be wrong to give up hope of getting into the park itself," he said. "Because there are still Olympic tickets, there are still huge numbers of Paralympic tickets, and there are 125,000 free tickets for London kids that are being used by London schools to motivate them to excel in sport or academic work."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/12/olympic-vips-tube-boris-johnson?newsfeed=true


----------



## progressing nicely

*Metropolitan Line Extension gets funding*

Good news re extending the Metropolitan Line to Watford Junction from Croxley Rail Link web site :banana:
http://www.croxleyraillink.com/latest-news/funding-announcement-december-2011.aspx

"Funding Announcement December 2011
Wednesday, December 14, 2011
We are delighted to announce that Croxley Rail Link has been awarded the necessary central government funding required for its construction.
Led by Hertfordshire County Council (HCC) the project submitted a best and final funding bid to the Department for Transport on 9 September 2011. This bid outlined the benefits of the scheme and the funding model required for its implementation.
Cllr Stuart Pile, Cabinet Member for Highways & Transport said "Obviously we're delighted that the Croxley Rail Link has been awarded this funding. We've all been talking about this project for many years and we're thrilled that we will finally be able to go ahead with the scheme, which will bring real economic and transport benefits to the south-west of the county."

"We know that lack of transport infrastructure is one of the things holding back economic development in the area, so investment like this will make a real difference to the local economy."
The Mayor of London and Transport for London have been working with HCC on the plans throughout to provide information and support to help shape the proposals.
Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, said: "I have long supported the Croxley Rail Link scheme seeking to unlock a raft of economic, housing and environmental benefits coming from better transport links between Watford, Hertfordshire and London as a whole . It is extremely welcome news to hear that funding for this rail link is now secured, which is now set to underpin the importance of Watford as a key transport hub for the capital."
HCC and London Underground (LU) will now proceed through the Transport and Works Act Order process which is the statutory means for gaining the powers to construct, operate and maintain the link. 
The Croxley Rail Link is a proposed diversion and extension of the Watford Branch of the Metropolitan line to Watford Junction via Watford High Street. New stations will be provided on the new rail link at Ascot Road, which forms a park and ride site for the area, and Vicarage Road serving the Watford General Hospital and the proposed Watford Health Campus development. As part of the proposals the existing Watford Metropolitan terminus station will close to passenger services. HCC, LU, Network Rail, Watford Borough Council and Three Rivers District Council are working in partnership to deliver the project.
Following the funding announcement, it is now intended to submit the Transport and Works Act Order in early January 2012, after which a formal six week objections period will commence."


----------



## CairnsTony

I never thought this project would ever get off the ground. 

Are there any plans to use its construction as an opportunity to provide a service between Watford and Rickmansworth and points beyond, or is it just a simple Met extension?


----------



## progressing nicely

CairnsTony said:


> I never thought this project would ever get off the ground.
> 
> Are there any plans to use its construction as an opportunity to provide a service between Watford and Rickmansworth and points beyond, or is it just a simple Met extension?


Yes it's 20 years in the making and still a number of years before it becomes reality. 

The approval for funding is based only on the Met line proposition but by doing this it opens up the possibility of mainline diesel services using the route from Rickmansworth.


----------



## progressing nicely

Ms.Jan said:


> the interior design of the trains seems really comfortable to ride a long journey.


I think the business case for the extension was more about local transport needs as opposed to commuting to London.

As a Uxbridge branch Met Line user I find that the new trains are worse in the following respects.

1 An enormous reduction in seats
2 Seats are harder than before
3 Majority of seats mean you sit travelling sideways which I find less comfortable to travelling forwards/ backwards
4 Doors often don't open because drivers need to stop more accurately and miss their marks at the platform so you have to walk through to a carriage which has open doors. 

However they are better in terms of

1 Suspension gives a smoother ride
2 Less claustrophobic since there are fewer seats
3 More comfortable and consistent on board temperature
4 Less noisy 
5 Lower floors so the step up from the platform is easier

When the old trains are replaces the new ones will be unrestricted and accelerate faster so journey times will improve. Also when new signalling comes in the line capacity will increase so there will be more trains. 

Overall I like the new trains.


----------



## sotonsi

I agree with that analysis, other than the claustrophobic thing, which while true - S stock is more open - doesn't matter as A stock isn't claustrophobic anyway.

4 is sort out-able, 2 wouldn't have been hard to have - while maybe not the quality of A stock, at least better than it is and so is the most disappointing thing.

Another grip is the fun of the announcements and scrolling thing. I arrived at Amersham and used the toilet on platform 2/3. A train arrived from London on platform 2. All the side things said "Baker Street" and, while I was pretty sure that it would be going to reverse in the sidings (as they normally do), I certainly didn't want to take the risk and not get the train having been caught out before by trains leaving for London from platform 2. The train announced that it was going to Baker Street, so I boarded, only to be detrained almost instantly. Going back over the footbridge, there was a lot of people that were crossing, until I told them that the train wasn't actually going to Baker Street, and they turned back.

When actually going into London, the train was billed as fast, until Ricky when they announced a change of terminus and the train was still a Baker Street, but now all stations. At Harrow, being a semi-fast, it became a fast again (with the same automatic change-of-terminus announcement, even though it was always going to terminate at Baker Street).

OK, there were engineering works, and I've had A stock the last time I took a (now timetabled) semi-fast into London earlier this week, so don't know whether it was just the train being changed, rather than timetabled to be a semi-fast. However the Amersham announcement was far more a problem, causing confusion and unnecessary effort by the people crossing the bridge.


----------



## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Could the DLR or Bakerloo line be coming to Bromley?*
> 
> *South London is very much the poor relation of its northern counterpart when it comes to public transport. DAVID MILLS looks at how things could one day change.*
> 
> A series of transport projects are on the horizon which could potentially see major rail and tram extensions into the borough. Transport for London has started to look at the business case for transport improvements across the capital, but it could be a while before anything happens as recommendations are not expected until 2017.
> 
> Suggestions mooted could significantly enhance Bromley's connections with other parts of London. These include bringing the Docklands Light Railway, Tramlink or Underground to the borough.
> 
> *TRAMLINK*
> 
> A £170m plan to extend the Croydon Tramlink to Crystal Palace was shelved in November 2008 by the Mayor of London along with £3bn worth of other transport projects in the capital. It is understood this could be now back on the cards along with the possibility of an extension from Beckenham Junction to Bromley.
> 
> Under the council's local implementation plan, the Tramlink coming to Bromley town centre would happen any time from 2022 to 2030 at a cost of £100m, although this figure is said to be underestimated.
> 
> When the Crystal Palace extension was considered in the early 2000s, a proposed route was suggested from Harrington Road via stops in Penge Road, Anerley Road, Crystal Palace railway station and terminating at the bus station.
> 
> *DLR*
> 
> It has been the council's formal policy to bring the DLR to Bromley North for some time now. The South East London Rail Access Study looked at several ways of improving rail connections in the area.
> 
> For Bromley this involved extending the DLR from Lewisham to Bromley North via Hither Green and Grove Park.
> 
> *UNDERGROUND*
> 
> The study also considered extending the Bakerloo line from Elephant & Castle to Lewisham via Camberwell and Peckham or Old Kent Road and then on to Beckenham Junction and Hayes, with another option running from Lewisham to Bromley North.
> 
> However it cites deliverability issues with the lack of a depot location, as well as the additional cost of tunnelling and lack of reallocation of train paths to National Rail.
> 
> The council says it is unlikely to support any extension to Hayes which results in the loss of direct services to Charing Cross, Cannon Street or London Bridge.
> 
> Portfolio holder for environment Councillor Colin Smith said: “We strongly believe that either the DLR or possibly the Bakerloo line must be extended to Bromley North as a priority.
> 
> "This will bring huge benefits to our residents by enabling them to make quicker and easier journeys to not only central London but also Docklands and east London. This remains our very clear message to Transport for London. We also remain supportive in principal of the possible extension of tram link to Crystal Palace.”


http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/...e_DLR_or_Bakerloo_line_be_coming_to_Bromley_/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Three-car trains to Woolwich Arsenal*
> 
> *London’s Docklands Light Railway introduced three-car operation on its Bank – Woolwich Arsenal route with effect from January 30, adding capacity for an extra 1 500 passengers/h ahead of the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games.*
> 
> This means all DLR routes are now worked with three-car trains during the morning peak periods, apart from the orbital Stratford – Canary Wharf and Stratford International – Woolwich Arsenal routes.
> 
> DLR also stepped up evening peak frequencies across its entire network, moving from 9 min to 8 min headways to match the morning service. This will enable it to carry 4 000 extra passengers/h during the 3 h period.
> 
> Bank – Woolwich trains will run every 8 min, interspersed with Stratford International – Woolwich trains to provide a 4 min headway on the branch from Canning Town. The Tower Gateway – Beckton service will also run every 8 min, whilst headways on the busiest route from Bank to Lewisham route will be cut from every 4½ min to every 4 min.
> 
> DLR Director Jonathan Fox said the three-car trains would provide the Woolwich line with ‘50 per cent more capacity direct to the City of London’. The other changes put DLR ‘in an excellent position ready to step up and meet the challenge of the 2012 Games. The extra capacity enables us to test our capability between now and July, so the network will be poised ready to deliver trains when and where they are needed during the events.’


http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...rains-to-woolwich-arsenal/archiv/2012/01.html


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts




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## Darloeye

Did anyone watch the tv show about the underground the other night ?


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## PortoNuts

The dead bodies controversy one?


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## Darloeye

Yes that was a bit shocking to know


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## PortoNuts

I don't think the Tube has proper places to store dead bodies and the network can't stop because of it.


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## Wilhem275

Do you have any reference please?


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## PortoNuts

^^What do you mean exactly?


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## Wilhem275

Sorry, maybe I used the wrong word 

I meant: can you post any article/link about this "Tube dead bodies" problem? The thing seemed creepy and I was curious about that


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## PortoNuts

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-bodies-stored-in-cupboards-on-the-Tube.html


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## iranair777

PortoNuts said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16809835


I have no idea why the jubilee line is being said to be the most direct and such route to the olympics when blatantly its the central line from central london. On the jubilee line all your doing is going over the thames and back 4 times. its 10 stops from bond street to stratford on the central line while its 12 on the jubilee. Anyone care to change my mind?


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## trainrover

TfL agrees with you, for their journey planner shows a five-minute saving using both the Metropolitan and Central lines instead of just the Jubilee from Baker St Stn.


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## PortoNuts

> *London Underground recruits 300 Tube station staff*
> 
> *London Underground (LU) is recruiting 300 Tube station staff in a move union bosses claim has been caused by a 2010 policy of cutting 800 jobs.*
> 
> LU announced plans to cut the jobs in 2010 as part of cost saving measures. But the RMT's Bob Crow said LU had "been forced into recruiting 300 new staff to try and plug the gaps" and called the policy a "massive blunder".
> 
> LU responded by saying: "We are just filling vacancies left by people leaving or being promoted."
> 
> It added: "There are no new posts or new jobs."
> 
> Transport for London's (TfL) 2010 plans led to a series of 24-hour strikes on the network. But it said its number of station staff would remain at around 5,200, despite the new vacancies.
> 
> *'Promotion opportunities'*
> 
> An internal bulletin from LU on the new jobs reads: "It has been over three years since our last recruitment campaign, and we are now in a position to fill a number of vacancies in our station operations.
> 
> "These vacancies are as a result of a number of promotion opportunities that have been offered to existing staff who have moved on to be train operators (as lines run more services), station supervisors or work in other roles across the business."
> 
> RMT union leader Bob Crow said: "Having dumped 800 safety-critical station staff as part of Mayor Boris Johnson's cuts programme, TfL are now admitting they have made a massive blunder and have been forced into recruiting 300 new staff to try and plug the gaps.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16906917


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## PortoNuts

> *Jubilee line ‘biggest risk’ to Olympic transport plans*
> 
> *The London Assembly Transport Committee has said the Jubilee line on the London Underground is the ‘biggest risk’ to the 2012 Games transport plans.*
> 
> The Assembly has written to the Mayor Boris Johnson to ‘welcome good progress’ but express its ‘concerns’ regarding the ‘heavily delayed upgrade works and regular disruptions’ on the Jubilee line.
> 
> The line is the only Underground line to see an increase in delays caused by infrastructure failures during the latest published performance period.
> 
> The Jubilee line is ‘also yet to run the increased fleet of trains Transport for London (TfL) has promised’, the Assembly said.
> 
> Caroline Pidgeon AM, Chair of the Transport Committee, said:
> 
> “Given the scale of the challenges, some disruption to the transport network is inevitable. Keeping the capital moving smoothly during the Games will be nothing short of a Herculean task.
> 
> “The amount of work that’s going in to getting our already overburdened transport network ready to carry millions of extra athletes, officials and spectators is very impressive.
> 
> “We are, however, keen to get some reassurance about the few areas – like the Jubilee line, local parking arrangements and the Olympic Route Network – that are still letting down what are otherwise very robust preparations.”


http://www.rail.co/2012/03/16/jubilee-line-biggest-risk-to-olympic-transport-plans/


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## PortoNuts

> *London Underground Maps get Olympic Facelift *
> 
> *Hop on the Underground at "Jesse Owens" station. After one stop change at "Carl Lewis." And then ride the Tube all the way to "Michael Phelps." That, sports fans, will get you from central London right to the Olympic Stadium.*
> 
> The subway system in the British capital has taken on a new look with Transport for London's Olympic Legends Map. Instead of Picadilly Circus, Baker Street and Knightsbridge, the map has changed the names of 361 stations to celebrate Olympic athletes.
> 
> "There were heated debates and a few late changes of heart, but we are happy with the result: dozens of nations represented, all 2012 Olympic sports accounted for, and Ali and Phelps, two of the greatest Olympians of all time, guarding the Stratford gateways to the games," map designers Alex Trickett and David Brooks said in a joint statement.
> 
> Phelps, who won a record eight gold medals in swimming at the 2008 Beijing Games and has 14 overall, gets the honour of being the main Olympic stop, which is usually known as Stratford.
> 
> The nearby Stratford International station on the Docklands Light Railway is named Cassius Clay, the original moniker of boxing great Muhammad Ali, winner of the heavyweight gold at the 1960 Rome Olympics.
> 
> The new map brings in famous Olympians from a variety of sports, including 2008 men's tennis singles gold medallist Rafael Nadal, gymnastics great Nadia Comaneci, five-time Tour de France champion Miguel Indurain and 1992 Dream Team players Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.
> 
> "The map not only celebrates multiple gold medal winning athletes but also features other extraordinary athletes who may not have won an Olympic gold medal but are recognized for their abilities or in some cases, famous defeats," the TFL said.
> 
> ...


http://www.ctvolympics.ca/news/newsid=1230093.html


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## PortoNuts

> *Driverless trains won’t blow away Tube strikes *
> 
> *This week has seen the Mayor once again pushing one of his big ideas for re-election: driverless Tubes, bringing with them not just a more high-tech Underground but an almighty confrontation with the Tube unions.*
> 
> In the midst of endless wrangles with the unions over Olympic bonuses, Boris Johnson might imagine that’s a popular gesture with voters. Yet he is both dead right and completely wrong about “driverless” trains.
> 
> Driverless is a misnomer. Such trains would be operated by a central computer, overseen by human controllers. There are already dozens of metro systems around the world that use such trains. In Copenhagen, for example, the computer controls everything centrally from the running of the trains to the opening of the doors, with just a handful of operators in the control centre — but nevertheless with stewards on every train.
> 
> In London we already have two versions of “driverless” trains. On the Victoria, Jubilee and Central lines, under the Automatic Train Operation system (ATO), the driver operates only the doors at stations — and can also drive the train or stop it in an emergency. Meanwhile, on the Docklands Light Railway there is no “driver” but a “train captain” able to take over the operation if there is a problem. The DLR can work like that because it operates at lower speed than the Underground and its one major tunnel section has a walkway alongside for easy evacuation.
> 
> Such centrally controlled trains have several advantages. Computers are normally better in terms of fuel efficiency. And the gap between trains can be shorter, using a more sophisticated system of signalling.
> 
> ...


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/comme...ains-wont-blow-away-tube-strikes-7603112.html


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## sotonsi

Christian Wolmar obviously hasn't seen/heard Boris on LBC (reposted a few posts up), where he himself attacks the views that Wolmar attacks in an identical fashion. Of course, such lazy journalism is to be expected from Wolmar. At least he like the idea and wants a modern tube - normally when I read him he's pining for the glory days of BR.


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## PortoNuts

Everyone wants a modern Tube (or should at least) but I don't see drivers going away anytime soon.


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## PortoNuts




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## trainrover

Imitating a British accent and pulling off tantrums are the only things that Wolmar seems to excel at ... Boris Johnson's full name itself constitute's the foolish pretender of a transport consultant's *second* tag in his Website's tag cloud ... I suspect his 'expertise' must've revealed his being a right corporate stool once denationalisation of BR started.









No matter the newness to its fleets, London's more recent *tubes* themselves no longer strike me as appearing modern.


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Delays on London Underground at ‘lowest since 2003′*
> 
> *Delays on the London Underground are ‘at their lowest’ since 2003/4, Transport for London has said. The latest figures on London Underground’s performance were published last week.*
> 
> The figures, covering the period 8 January to 4 February, show that the percentage of scheduled services was 97.1%.
> 
> Average delays for the financial year to date – as measured by the number of customer hours lost to disruption – are at their lowest since 2003/04, Transport for London said.
> 
> This period is the sixth consecutive period where delays are down compared to the equivalent periods during the last financial year.
> 
> The latest figures also show accessibility improvements around the network, with more than 98% of lifts available at LU stations during the period.
> 
> Work included returning Earl’s Court to full step-free status, with lifts there returned to service ‘four months ahead of schedule’ following a nine-month programme of works to increase lift reliability.


http://www.rail.co/2012/04/02/delays-on-london-underground-at-lowest-since-2003/


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## PortoNuts




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## PortoNuts

> *Google Maps adds live Tube data*
> 
> *Google has added live Tube information from Transport for London in preparation for a surge in public transport use during the Olympics.*
> 
> Writing on the Google Maps blog, Thijs van As, said that "Ahead of a busy summer in London, we are bringing real time service alerts for the London Underground to Google Maps. We’ll let you know of any disruptions on the Underground that are happening at the time you need them most. To see these alerts, click on a station in a timetable or in the public transport directions results".
> 
> Transport for London has also recently made live information about buses available via its own website, sparking a number of new apps, but Google has yet to include these in its new service.
> 
> The new Tube data will be incorporated into Google Maps online and on mobile phones. Updated every 30 seconds, it will also include details of planned engineering works in its journey planner.
> 
> Last month Google updated its maps service to show real-time traffic conditions, allowing it to calculate the shortest route to a user's destination. Where Google has enough information, roads are colour-coded based on the level of congestion. Green routes are moving well, while red routes are slow.
> 
> The new feature is available on Google Maps on the web and for Android mobile users in Britain, the US, Canada, France and Australia. It covers major routes across Britain and several cities, including London, Glasgow and Manchester.
> 
> Google Maps now offers a choice of routes and drivers can choose which one to follow based on current traffic conditions. The feature could eliminate the need for a dedicated satnav for Android mobile users.
> 
> Szabolcs Payrits, a software engineer on Google Maps, wrote on the Google Maps blog: "If the roads you're traveling do not yet show the current traffic information, don't despair. You can help your fellow drivers and improve traffic data about road conditions and speeds by turning on the My Location feature on Google Maps for Android."
> 
> Google will use the information received from Android mobile phones to get better traffic data.
> 
> The search company previously estimated journey times using the longest journey time taken from historic data. The new feature updates constantly and so provides more accurate estimates.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/9182770/Google-Maps-adds-live-Tube-data.html


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## IanCleverly

I've mentioned previously on this Thread, that there was to be a One Hour documentary about the London Underground on the National Geogrpahic channel, well:-


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Thank you.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Working night to five with London's tube workers*
> 
> By Li-mei Hoang
> 
> A light breeze moves through the cavernous tunnels of London's underground train network, a rarity for the workers whose heads are bent down while methodically sifting rocks and dust armed with just a brush and metal pick.
> 
> Among them is Michael Emordi, one of 10,000 night workers employed by London Underground to help ensure its subterranean railways are in top condition for the capital's four million commuters and prepare an already creaking system for the influx of half a million visitors for this summer's Olympic Games.
> 
> Emordi works as a "fluffer" manually removing hair, fibres and dust shed by passengers every day in the underground railway system, which if left to build has the potential to bring down the whole system.
> It's a tough job but one of the many important roles that night workers perform in the dirt-caked tunnels beneath London's bustling surface to ensure the smooth running of the world's oldest underground transport system, which most Londoners simply refer to as "the tube".
> 
> Transport for London (TfL), which is responsible for the majority of London's transport system, including the London Underground, expects to see an additional 500,000 passengers on the tube during the Olympics, a number that has seen many voice their concerns over whether the system can cope with the influx.
> 
> London Underground Chief Operating Officer Howard Collins told Reuters that is a challenge his organisation is prepared to take on.
> But providing a perfect service during the Olympics may be difficult to achieve, said Collins, who hopes that the company's experience of dealing with delays will help ease congestion on a service which carries 1.1 billion passengers annually.
> 
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/feedarticle/10176995


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## PortoNuts

*Blackfriars Station*









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7034294201/sizes/l/in/photostream/


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## PortoNuts

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6267828262/sizes/l/in/photostream/


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## SO143

the tube is so expensive and i hate it


----------



## Jamsterx

SO143 said:


> the tube is so expensive and i hate it


I hope you mean you hate the fares on the tube...not the whole of the tube itself, because that would be a shame. hno:


----------



## PortoNuts

LU is terribly expensive to maintain. People don't like it surely but the fact is that passengers numbers keep growing.


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## PortoNuts




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## sotonsi

krnboy1009 said:


> Naturally, London IS the biggest city.


We're talking measures of percentage of journeys.


trainrover said:


> Is the Congestion Charge to blame for the tube's overcrowding?


Not at all - no one in their right mind would drive through that area at the peak times when the tube is overcrowded before the charge, unless they had to. It was light commercial vehicles, vans and the like, that got displaced into delivering earlier/later when the CC charge started.

The tube was overcrowded before the CC charge.


----------



## PortoNuts

krnboy1009 said:


> Naturally, London IS the biggest city.


I don't think a good transportation system is necessarily exclusive of big cities.


----------



## HigerBigger

PortoNuts said:


> If you are from North America, it isn't surprising that you would choose the car. But I bet a car is not a good option in London. I remember reading a survey that said Londoners were the biggest users of public transportation in Britain.


A city like London will not be able to function without the Underground, DLR and busses. In the 1960's, the London City Government introduced a change in building regulations. Before this time, every new building required a minimum of a certain number of parking spaces per square feet and this was changed into a maximum number of parking spaces per square feet. It allowed developers to build building without any parking. This was needed to reduce the requirement to start to demolish the city to get the polluting cars into the city - a no win situation.


----------



## Steel City Suburb

SO143 said:


> i don't really like the london underground because it is way too extensive and expensive.
> 
> i think it is the oldest and second largest subway system in the world but if i had a choice i'd rather drive my own car than taking the tube. :cheers:


Good luck trying to park, pay for the congestion charge and beating the time it takes on public transport. 

London is one of the best cities for public transport on the planet.


----------



## trainrover

sotonsi said:


> The tube was overcrowded before the CC charge.


True, but surely not to the extent that would have obliged TfL to be hiring *numerous* crowd-control inspectors and officers at many stations? For example (as featured in that BBC series), that whole cat-n-mouse game of manually closing a subterranean passageway gate on users inside Bank station before a bottleneck up ahead is kind of absurd.


----------



## Steel City Suburb

But it works, and having people on the ground helps. 

Just spent 3 hours watching the tube episodes. Impressed.


----------



## trainrover

Works? More like hobbling. Aside from route extensions themselves, so many cities' networks desperately need expanding


----------



## Steel City Suburb

Don't get what some people don't understand about over-used, soaring numbers, continued investment and maintenance works.


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## PortoNuts

trainrover said:


> True, but surely not to the extent that would have obliged TfL to be hiring *numerous* crowd-control inspectors and officers at many stations? For example (as featured in that BBC series), that whole cat-n-mouse game of manually closing a subterranean passageway gate on users inside Bank station before a bottleneck up ahead is kind of absurd.


Crossrail should hopefully release some pressure from the Tube but it will need extensions or new lines nonetheless, like the Northern Line extension to Battersea. The system needs to go deeper into South London.


----------



## CairnsTony

PortoNuts said:


> Crossrail should hopefully release some pressure from the Tube but it will need extensions or new lines nonetheless, like the Northern Line extension to Battersea. The system needs to go deeper into South London.


My understanding is that the Northern Line extension to Battersea is as good as dead as the developers who said they'd fund it can't actually pay for it. In fact, have they gone bust?

I feel that a Northern Line extension would've been better going South East, maybe to Camberwell or Brixton (to alleviate the heavily used Victoria Line) or both.


----------



## trainrover

True, the sort of route extensions you're mentioning do make sense.


----------



## PortoNuts

CairnsTony said:


> My understanding is that the Northern Line extension to Battersea is as good as dead as the developers who said they'd fund it can't actually pay for it. In fact, have they gone bust?
> 
> I feel that a Northern Line extension would've been better going South East, maybe to Camberwell or Brixton (to alleviate the heavily used Victoria Line) or both.


The Northern Line extension was just an example, much more extensions would be needed.


----------



## CairnsTony

PortoNuts said:


> The Northern Line extension was just an example, much more extensions would be needed.


Agreed. Extensions to the Northern and Bakerloo would only go in part to deal with the lack of coverage and capacity issues.


----------



## PortoNuts

Extensions to South London are also desperately needed because it has much more potential for construction growth.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## SO143

PortoNuts said:


> Extensions to *South London* are also desperately needed because it has much more potential for construction growth.


i personally find south london is sort of being neglected by mayor boris johnson. of course there are some new towers and other regeneration projects, but it is still behind compared to many parts of london. south london definitely needs more LU stations and shopping centres as well.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Brompton Road Tube ghost station resurrection plans announced*
> 
> ''When we first went in with torches, the place was crackling with atmosphere," said entrepreneur Ajit Chambers. "We are holding this feeling, bottling it and showing the world's tourists just how amazing the history of London is."
> 
> Then Prime Minister Winston Churchill watched over the Royal Artillery's anti-aircraft operations during World War II from a secret command centre at Brompton Road Underground station.
> 
> *Now Mr Chambers has announced abandoned Brompton Road Tube in south-west London is the first station he plans to develop into a tourist attraction. "Proceedings began this morning to purchase our first abandoned Underground station," Mr Chambers said.*
> 
> "This site is perfect for what we want to use it for," said the man who owns The Old London Underground Company.
> 
> *'Ghost stations'*
> 
> "We would like to have a rooftop restaurant, and use the deep drop shafts for climbing walls," he said. "The visit down to Brompton Road will be comparable to the London Eye and Madame Tussauds."
> 
> Mr Chambers is working with the Ministry of Defence (MoD), which owns many of the stations, to lease the sites, he calls "ghost stations". He has also been in talks with the Greater London Authority and Transport for London (TfL), which owns the network. They have both said they are "in principle" in favour of the proposals, provided suitably detailed and properly funded plans are put forward.
> 
> Brompton Road Tube opened in 1906 on the Piccadilly Line, positioned between Knightsbridge and South Kensington. But it was permanently closed 28 years later when nearby Knightsbridge was modernised and given a new entrance, and after diminishing footfall Brompton Road was deemed to be no longer economically viable.
> 
> The station was taken over by the MoD and became a central part of the war effort, of which some of the evidence is still in remarkable condition. Maps of London still hang from the walls of the war room where the anti-aircraft command centre used to be.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17699680


----------



## Plaistow

I noticed today a London tram covered in a Magnum ice cream advertising livery. If memory serves this is the first all-over advertising livery in many years on the trams and certainly the first since TfL bought out the previous operators. Previous liveries included the Whitgift shopping centre, a golf club and Nescafé plus First Group corporate purple.


----------



## Damarr

PortoNuts said:


> Extensions to South London are also desperately needed because it has much more potential for construction growth.


An idea that occasionally gets kicked around is digging tunnels from outer south London to the terminals for long-distance trains and using the overground network purely for local services. I think it makes sense as it'd keep costs down since new stations (which you'd need several of if you extended any tube lines) cost a hell of a lot more than new tunnels. It'd also allow for a proper metro service in the south. The huge increase in local capacity would allow them to reopen Camberwell, which is probably the biggest transport blackhole in inner London.


----------



## trainrover

Hmmm, mere emergency exits would be less costly than full-fledged stations ...


----------



## sotonsi

ill tonkso said:


> Well, the DLR.


Where's it Elevated over the top of a road? It's elevated, yes, but not like this, even if you factor in a lighter weight viaduct. There's a couple of stretches to the side of the road where the DLR is above grade, plus the bit in the middle of the road near Cyprus where it's at-, or below-, grade, but not a NY/Chicago style 'el' to be found - thankfully!


----------



## SE9

Kolothos said:


> London's system is of course, much much more used, much larger and much more impressive. I love that picture of Clapham Common. What's the other island station on the tube? IIRC, there's two, aren't there?



Clapham North


Clapham North Station: 05/08/2012 by 47609FireFly, on Flickr[/size]


----------



## CalumCookable

---


----------



## Antje

*Central line/Circle line/District line/Northern line/Waterloo & City line* - Bank-Monument


----------



## Antje

CalumCookable said:


> Having signs and seats in the middle of that tiny platform doesn't seem like the brightest idea in the world


This is why the trains have to be slow on the approach to the two aforementioned stations.


----------



## iampuking

^^They dont come in any slower than usual in my experience.


----------



## Antje

Alternative Angle of King's Cross St. Pancras (featured 21st August 2012):


----------



## NCT

The curvature of Central Line platforms at Bank Station is quite crazy.


----------



## Kolothos

I remember getting on a train at Bank. It always looks like a corner of a carriage is about to clip your knees!


----------



## Antje

*Circle line/Hammersmith & City line/Metropolitan line* - Barbican


Crossposted from http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?30,6039365,6039728

The last A' stock passenger run is slated for Wednesday 26 Sept as Train No. 412.

0752 Neasden Depot - Wembley Park (arr. 0801)
0802 Wembley Park - Watford 0830
0840 Watford - Baker Street 0922
0928 Baker Street - Amersham 1026
1047 Amersham - Aldgate 1159
1211 Aldgate - Amersham 1326
1347 Amersham - Aldgate 1459
1511 Aldgate - Amersham 1626
1646 Amersham - Aldgate 1801
1808 Aldgate - Watford 1907
1917 Watford - Harrow on the Hill 1939
1944 Harrow on the Hill - Neasden Depot (arr. 1958)

It will be the last A' Stock passenger run which will accept normal tickets, Oyster and Freedom Passes.


----------



## Sopomon

Antje said:


> 1944 Harrow on the Hill - Neasden Depot (arr. 1958)
> 
> .


That arrival time, it's not coincidental, is it? I'm sure the A stock debuted around that date...


----------



## Antje

Sopomon said:


> That arrival time, it's not coincidental, is it? I'm sure the A stock debuted around that date...


It was actually 12 June 1961. Minutes only go from 00 to 59 (60 minutes).


----------



## 437.001

Antje said:


> *Circle line/Hammersmith & City line/Metropolitan line* - Barbican


Are the two platforms on the right the old National Rail platforms of the now closed Farringdon-Moorgate line?


----------



## Antje

437.001 said:


> Are the two platforms on the right the old National Rail platforms of the now closed Farringdon-Moorgate line?


Yes.


----------



## Antje

*Central line/Circle line/Hammersmith & City line/Metropolitan line* - Liverpool Street


----------



## Antje

*Piccadilly line* - Knightsbridge


----------



## poshbakerloo

I always love the old tube stations, so much more exciting and nicer than the new clinical looking ones that open on new networks!


----------



## trainrover

Clinical? Then I guess it be best to be pitying the grimy state of clinics over there ... I liken what you're relating to to be :yawn: airports :sleepy:


----------



## Antje

*Jubilee line* - Southwark


----------



## Antje

*Circle line/District line* - Tower Hill


----------



## trainrover

Antje said:


>


----------



## Antje

*Jubilee line* - North Greenwich


----------



## rheintram

It wouldn't be the London Underground, if it hadn't unnecessary stairs somewhere in the station.


----------



## CairnsTony

rheintram said:


> It wouldn't be the London Underground, if it hadn't unnecessary stairs somewhere in the station.


Odd that you should (presumably) make this comment about the stations on the Jubilee line extension which are all fully-wheelchair accessible.


----------



## Antje

*Bakerloo line* - Regent's Park


----------



## Darloeye

Do Love Southwark tube station with the design and layout even with that deep level escalator its just a shame that the area around the station is a bit sketchy with a office block on one side of the road and a council housing on the other side and my hotel set to one side.


----------



## sarflonlad

Darloeye said:


> Do Love Southwark tube station with the design and layout even with that deep level escalator its just a shame that the area around the station is a bit sketchy with a office block on one side of the road and a council housing on the other side and my hotel set to one side.


You need to open your eyes. There's a whole load of nice pubs, theatres and restaurants on the main street. Oh, and the south bank. It's all a bit rustic, but it's oozing character and things to see.


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* - Kentish Town


----------



## Darloeye

sarflonlad said:


> You need to open your eyes. There's a whole load of nice pubs, theatres and restaurants on the main street. Oh, and the south bank. It's all a bit rustic, but it's oozing character and things to see.


Did but leaving the tube station after midnight and walking to my hotel. the place looked a bit run down to me.

Oh yeah my hotel was the Travelodge is down the road from the tube station on union street.


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* - Hampstead, neé Heath Street

Thanks for looking at my photos so far: please subscribe, favourite and comment. I'm taking a short break from getting new photos of platforms, because I'd like to temporarily shift my focus on practising HDR photos of tower blocks. But I'll still post a platform a day on this thread.


----------



## NCT

Those Northern Line platforms really are very nice.


----------



## Antje

NCT said:


> Those Northern Line platforms really are very nice.


Leslie Green designed the platform tiles.


----------



## Antje

*Circle line/Hammersmith & City line/Metropolitan line* - Farringdon


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* - Tufnell Park


----------



## Attus

I like Northern Line stations.


----------



## Antje

*Circle line/District line* - Mansion House


----------



## Boldro

I come from Rome hno: I miss so much London Transport. You are very luck to have this Underground system. Your public Transport i really modern and I love the new stations of Northern Line. I don't believe that you keep your stations so well and in Rome we can't do maintence for only 2 lines of underground hno: Believe me! Enjoy your Underground!

a desperate Romans :drunk:


----------



## Antje

*Circle line/District line* - Blackfriars


Recently reopened and reclad.


----------



## SteveAWOL

Antje said:


> *Circle line/Hammersmith & City line/Metropolitan line* - Farringdon


Farringdon Station has changed somewhat since I used to regularly stop off there on my way to Turnmills nightclub back in my youth.


----------



## Antje

Yup, it is at the centre of the Thameslink and Crossrail projects.


----------



## progressing nicely

sotonsi said:


> Managed to get 74, but couldn't find where the 75th one was to do it.
> 
> I still don't understand one or two of them - I simply latched onto one detail and tried that line until I got it right.


There are 76 in total. There is a roundish thing on the wall at the bottom left corner which was one of the last ones that I almost missed.


----------



## Antje

progressing nicely said:


> There are 76 in total. There is a roundish thing on the wall at the bottom left corner which was one of the last ones that I almost missed.


It's Oval.


----------



## trainrover

Antje said:


> Angel


Wow







how on earth did they get a tube station to accommodate such a broad platform, necessitating two sets of overhead lighting ... the contrast in station breadth is quite stark ... besides, isn't the next station super narrow, without any divider twixt the platforms


----------



## CalumCookable

---


----------



## progressing nicely

Here is a pic of Angel before the change was made

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=an...98&start=18&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:18,i:158


----------



## trainrover

Ah, so my memory does still serve me well: Angel bore no platform partitioning.


----------



## Antje

*Victoria line* - Seven Sisters


----------



## Tubeman

progressing nicely said:


> There are 76 in total. There is a roundish thing on the wall at the bottom left corner which was one of the last ones that I almost missed.


No, there's only 75... the Red Herring is literally that!


----------



## PortoNuts

> *London Underground scrap plans for driverless trains after safety concerns *
> 
> ...


http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ess-trains-after-safety-concerns-8201540.html


----------



## trainrover

Neat photos ... Montreal's (outer) stations are so dingy in comparison hno: I prefer lighting to dimness


----------



## Antje

*Northern line *- Clapham Common (with both trains)


----------



## IanCleverly

Too late to bid, but over the weekend the London Transport Museum held an auction over at Christie’s, offering the chance for people to buy London Underground posters direct from the archives of the museum, and featured over 300 original advertising posters dating from 1913 to 1955.










Taken from the London Standard


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* - Balham


----------



## Antje

*Central line* - Perivale


----------



## trainrover

Antje said:


> *Northern line *- Clapham Common (with both trains)


----------



## Antje

Some stations on the London Underground were dim, such as Euston Square, so I had to resort to long exposures to get something that's worth looking.


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* - South Wimbledon


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Antje

Yup, the A Stock did so much for us. But wait, there will be more withdrawals soon...
_______________________

*Central line* - Northolt

_______________________
Extra:


----------



## trainrover

^^







*charming* village-like scenes 

BTW, I've been craving watching footage of CO/CP, R stock but there's barely any out there


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Tube section to close for upgrade*
> 
> *A section of a Tube line is to shut for 12 days as part of a major upgrade. The closure, from Wednesday October 24, affects the Hainault loop section of the Central Line east of London.*
> 
> Until November 4, the line will be closed on weekdays between Grange Hill and Newbury Park stations and closed between Woodford and Leytonstone stations on the weekends of October 27 and 28 and November 3 and 4.
> 
> Central line services will continue to operate between Epping and central London.
> 
> The closure is part of work on the Central line which includes new rails and points and new track drainage.
> 
> The line carries around 900,000 passengers a day and the closure will affect around 7,500 of them.


http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2012-10-22/tube-section-to-close-for-upgrade/


----------



## Trances

Only 7,500 people effected ?


----------



## Kolothos

7,500 people per day.


----------



## sotonsi

Woodford - Newbury Park is one of the least used bits of the tube network, thanks to the green belt


----------



## CairnsTony

I think I'm right in saying Roding Valley is the least used station on the entire network.


----------



## Antje

On http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20042559 (BBC News), Debabani Majumdar investigated the locomotive that will be running between Olympia and Moorgate on the 150th anniversary day, 13 January.


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* - Tooting Broadway

Tooting Broadway Station II by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Underground: How the Tube Shaped London - gallery*
> 
> A new book on the London Underground draws on previously unused sources and images to celebrate its crucial role – covering 150 years, from the steam age to drilling work on the new Crossrail link – in the creation of modern London
> 
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/gallery/2012/oct/23/london-underground-tube-gallery


----------



## baynesmedia

*Emirates Air Line London*

Hello

I think we only have one cable car in London which is the Emirates Air Line which goes over the River Thames at Greenwich. Shot a time-lapse film of it recently which I think people might find interesting:

http://youtu.be/dHJuWLxqMZU

Hope you enjoy it!

cheers

Mark


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Kolothos

PortoNuts said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/gallery/2012/oct/23/london-underground-tube-gallery


Nice article. I love the history of the tube.


----------



## Antje

*Central line* - Stratford

Stratford Station by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


----------



## Vikingo.

Long time since I went there


----------



## Antje

Interesting graphic from a poster promoting the Oyster card at Heathrow Central:

Oyster Card Promotion by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Antje said:


> *Northern line* - Tooting Broadway
> 
> Tooting Broadway Station II by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


Home, sweet home


----------



## Antje

Notting Hill Gate (Central line) Station by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr

Another platform with little or no adverts on track side.


----------



## PortoNuts

That platform seems smaller than most...


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Tube Reliability Reaches Record High*
> 
> *During the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games customers experienced the best level of performance ever provided, at the same time as record numbers of passengers used the network, according to Transport For London.*
> 
> The figures, covering periods 5 and 6 of 2012/13 (July 22 to September 15 this year), confirm that delays - as measured by the number of customer hours lost to disruption - were at a record low level during the Games.
> 
> Period 5 saw delays down by 21 per cent, and period 6 saw delays down by 49 per cent, compared to the average for 2011/12, with many lines delivering the best performance ever recorded.
> 
> These results were achieved while carrying record numbers of passengers - with more than 101million journeys made on the Tube during the Games - up 28 per cent compared to normal levels.
> 
> Tuesday 7 August was the busiest day in the Tube's history, with 4.57 million passengers.
> 
> The continuing trend of long-term improvement follows the creation of the London Underground Reliability Programme in 2011, which led to the introduction of a range of initiatives to predict and prevent failures and respond more quickly to problems.
> 
> This saw a range of initiatives rolled out across the network, from BTP officers driving the Tube's emergency response unit vehicles under blue-light conditions and officers given enhanced medical training, to a targeted increase in signal repair staff at network pinch-points and other measures to prevent and predict signal, track and train failures.
> 
> London Underground is now developing plans to meet the Mayor's commitment of reducing delays by a further 30 per cent by 2015.
> 
> Mike Brown, Managing Director of London Underground and Rail, said: 'The work that our staff put in over the last couple of years helped to deliver a fantastic London 2012 Games, with record performance on the Tube network.
> 
> "However, there are many improvements yet to be delivered. We continue the vital work of transforming the network with new and upgraded trains, signalling, stations and track. Together these, and our relentless focus on improving the journeys of our customers, will continue to boost reliability and performance across the network."


http://www.4rfv.co.uk/nationalnews.asp?id=153628


----------



## makita09

4.57 million in a day - to put that in perspective that equates to over 1.5 billion per year. Epic.


----------



## SteveAWOL

150 facts for 150 years of the London Tube - History - Life & Style - The Independent

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/series/150-years-of-the-underground


----------



## MelbourneCity

Happy Birthday London Underground! One of my favourite parts of London... Real cross section if the city!

Hopefully be back on board in the not too distant future!


----------



## Antje

*Circle line/District ("Wimbleware") line* - Bark Place, south of Bayswater

Steam on the Tube by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


----------



## MarkO

*Commemorating the design history*

At the risk of being spanked for some shameless self-promotion....

May I humbly offer my new publication to the list of great new books out there to celebrate the Underground's 150th:

"_London Underground By Design_" published on Friday 18th Jan by Penguin (http://www.penguin.co.uk/nf/Book/Boo...144172,00.html) is available for pre-order online now (for example here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Under.../dp/1846144175)

If you think you knew everything about this subject you might be pleasantly surprised: there's a few exclusives in it and lots of photos, drawings, photos etc not seen elsewhere before so even if you have a few of the other books about various aspects of the LU's great history, you will hopefully find it's a worthwhile addition to your collection. 

Few photo's in this article from the magazine Design Week: (http://www.designweek.co.uk/london-u...035852.article)

Will post some of the cool things on here in forthcoming weeks and on railforums.co.uk (But do please support us transport writers - it's not exactly a JK Rowling living - and get a copy for yourself or a friend !)


----------



## Antje

In reference to the Underground design book: "SPENDA DAY IN..." They didn't seem to take care with Keming back in those days.


----------



## Suburbanist

*London in Motion*

This is a very interesting animation of Oyster Card-based readings.

Read the description of the video on Youtube to understand exactly what the color patterns mean


----------



## skyscraperus

Does anyone know exactly how many kilometers is underground from total 402 km of London Underground ?


----------



## Antje

skyscraperus said:


> Does anyone know exactly how many kilometers is underground from total 402 km of London Underground ?


Only 45%, because of the many projects from the early times to the 1940s that saw most lines go into what was once the countryside, before the tube caused the metropolis to swallow up the countryside so that only 14 out of 270 are now truly outside Greater London.


----------



## sotonsi

45%, or 180.9km


----------



## skyscraperus

*270 km* _under the ground_ - Madrid Metro 
*202 km* _under the ground_ - New York Subway
*198 km *_under the ground_ - Paris Metro
*181 km* _under the ground_ - London Underground


----------



## TedToToe

When complete, will Crossrail be considered part of the London Underground?


----------



## sotonsi

TedToToe said:


> When complete, will Crossrail be considered part of the London Underground?


No.

In terms of status, it will be like the Overground (part of Network Rail's network, franchised by TfL). It won't, however, be part of the Overground franchise that currently exists.


----------



## IanCleverly

The Engineer said:


> London Underground (LU) and the Rail Accident Investigation Bureau (RAIB) have launched an investigation into an incident involving an engineering train on the Northern Line this morning.
> 
> LU said in a statement that at around 5.25am an engineering train performing rail maintenance became defective as it approached Archway station. The train was travelling southbound on the High Barnet branch of the Northern Line. Engineers began to move the defective train northbound by attaching it to an out-of-service Northern Line train


Source:- The Engineer and ITN on Youtube


----------



## Antje

Tube trains of the future from Railtex yesterday.


Hitachi Underground by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


Hitachi Underground Front View by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


Siemens EVO Tube Front View by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


Siemens Underground Side View by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


----------



## MK Tom

I hope that if Hitatchi were to win the contract they'd manufacture the units at their Newton Aycliffe facility and not in Japan. I'd want either that or Bombardier.


----------



## Kolothos

Not too keen on either of those actually... Although if you were to either paint the Hitachi stock differently, or combine the Hitachi front with the Siemens body, you'd be on to a winner.

It'll be interesting to see what these companies come up with for the new Glasgow Subway trains.


----------



## suburbicide

The Siemens train is just weird.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

I think it looks awesome! Very London avant-garde, kinda like their Olympic mascots lol.


----------



## Sopomon

Any repositories for images from railtex? I've been looking all over and have only found a couple


----------



## Swede

Nouvellecosse said:


> I think it looks awesome! Very London avant-garde, kinda like their Olympic mascots lol.


IMO it accentuates the shape of the tight tunnels and also reminds me a little bit of the classic London Underground roundel. Should those aspects be enhanced it'd become a great front design. Not sure about the sides tho.


----------



## SE9

*Nine Elms Station* | Northern Line

Submitted proposals for the new station at Nine Elms. The apartments are indicative only.


----------



## SE9

*Southwark* | Jubilee Line







Southwark Station by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


----------



## SE9

*Addiscombe Road* | London Tramlink







Stadler Variobahn Tram by Peter G Trimming, on Flickr


----------



## SE9

*Stratford* | DLR







DLR B07 Stock at Stratford (Low Level) by bowroaduk, on Flickr


----------



## SE9

*Greenwich-Docklands* | Emirates Air Line







arrivals by worldoflard, on Flickr


----------



## SE9

*Canning Town* | DLR and Jubilee Line







1996 Tube Stock and DLR B2K Stock at Canning Town by bowroaduk, on Flickr


----------



## SE9

*2013* | London's most liked and hated stations

Study conducted by YouGov, Spring 2013:


----------



## SE9

Most hated underground station in London:


*Bank* | Central Line and Northern Line







Bank (Central line) Station by Trowbridge Estate, on Flickr


----------



## SE9

Most liked underground station in London:


*Canary Wharf* | Jubilee Line

Full walkthrough:







Canary Wharf tube station by Ewan-M, on Flickr


----------



## MK Tom

Pretty sure the reason Bank's so 'hated' is the endless miles of walking tunnels to transfer between platforms, rather than anything to do with the platforms themselves. The curve of that platform is quite common on the Central line - unlike other deep tube lines, it follows the routes of streets above.

Canary Wharf on the other hand is just an epic underground cathedral of a station.


----------



## SE9

MK Tom said:


> Pretty sure the reason Bank's so 'hated' is the endless miles of walking tunnels to transfer between platforms, rather than anything to do with the platforms themselves. The curve of that platform is quite common on the Central line - unlike other deep tube lines, it follows the routes of streets above.
> 
> Canary Wharf on the other hand is just an epic underground cathedral of a station.


True, although that curve on the Central Line makes Bank (westbound) the loudest station on the entire network.

That and it's hell during the rush hour. I use to commute to Angel from south east London everyday, and Bank station was always the 'liveliest'.


----------



## Sopomon

Surprised to see KXSTP as a hated one.
Canary Wharf is simply fantastic.

Part of Banks problem is the W&C line that takes pretty much every commuter from the Wessex region and dumps them in Bank


----------



## MK Tom

Sopomon said:


> Part of Banks problem is the W&C line that takes pretty much every commuter from the Wessex region and dumps them in Bank


Wasn't there a plan at one stage to whack on an intermediate stop where that passes under Embankment? Or Barbican... I forget which station it was. That struck me as a good plan. 

My personal proposal would be to tie the DLR and the Waterloo and City together. Convert the W&C to DLR operation and transfer the current stock to the Northern Line.


----------



## Manchester77

It was at Blackfriars where t passes directly underneath


----------



## DaeguDuke

MK Tom said:


> My personal proposal would be to tie the DLR and the Waterloo and City together. Convert the W&C to DLR operation and transfer the current stock to the Northern Line.


I believe the angle of the platforms at Bank make connecting the two impossible without rebuilding a large part of the station and tunnels to and from it


----------



## Stofvdw

MK Tom said:


> My personal proposal would be to tie the DLR and the Waterloo and City together. Convert the W&C to DLR operation and transfer the current stock to the Northern Line.


apaart from the complete wrong direction of the DLR and the W&C, the gauge of the W&C won't be able to take the DLR trains, so you would need to retunnel the W&C completely, so this will largerly be the price of a new line.

And knowing that the W&C is almost at capacity, it is very hard to extend it without creating to much problems on the new line. So most metro experts are convinced that the only feasible (in money and capacity terms) to do with the W&C is to leave it this way....


----------



## CairnsTony

Stofvdw said:


> apaart from the complete wrong direction of the DLR and the W&C, the gauge of the W&C won't be able to take the DLR trains, so you would need to retunnel the W&C completely, so this will largerly be the price of a new line.
> 
> And knowing that the W&C is almost at capacity, it is very hard to extend it without creating to much problems on the new line. So most metro experts are convinced that the only feasible (in money and capacity terms) to do with the W&C is to leave it this way....


This has been discussed before; even adding an interchange at Blackfriars would probably overload it. 

It is clearly a very useful route however and a much longer tube line that follows that route with a Blackfriars interchange could well be useful, retaining the W&C as a rush hour shuttle. Perhaps said line could tie in with the Northern City Line, running into a new deeper level Moorgate and continue on to the 'Northern Heights' line to Highgate providing an alternative to the Northern Line to the City from the north which is pretty rammed at rush hour. Going the other way it could run to Victoria and Chelsea enabling CR2 to run direct from Vic to CJ thence on to Roehampton which is an entire suburb with no stations. Anyway, just an idea...


----------



## Kolothos

Bank felt like a deep bored maze. Pretty cool, but I'd utterly hate to use it every morning!









Looks like some kid of living organ.


----------



## Sopomon

Just found this tool, very helpful for finding your way about the more complicated tube stations:

http://stations.aeracode.org/


----------



## SteveAWOL

BBC iPlayer - The Tube: An Underground History


> In 2013 London Underground is 150 years old. The world's first underground railway is spending its anniversary year celebrating its own history. They're sending a steam train back underground, and there's a Royal visit to prepare for. On the tube, history is everywhere - it's down every tunnel, in every tunnel, in every sign and design, and in the lives of the unsung people who built it and run it today.
> 
> Following on from BBC2's The Tube series, this programme tells the story of the underground through the eyes of the people who work for it. Farringdon station supervisor Iain MacPherson reveals why his station - the original terminus - was constructed in the 1860s, and recalls the dark days of Kings Cross in the 1980s. Piccadilly line driver Dylan Glenister explains why every Edwardian station on his line has its own unique tiling pattern and how, in the 1930s, the construction of new stations expanded the borders of London. And there's Head of Design and Heritage, Mike Ashworth, whose predecessor pioneered the art of branding in the 1920s and Customer Service Assistant Steve Parkinson, who was part of a wave of new recruits from the Caribbean from the 50s.
> 
> With privileged access to disused stations and rare archive footage, this is the tube's hidden history, revealing why it was first built and how it has shaped London ever since.


BBC Two - The Tube: An Underground History, The Revolutionary Tunnelling machine 


> Taken to closed underground stations not open to the public the crew are shown how tunnels were built using the grate head shield, a revolutionary machine.


----------



## Antje

*Bakerloo line* – Harrow & Wealdstone

1972 Tube Stock 3232 at Harrow & Wealdstone by κύριαsity (me), on Flickr


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* – Morden and the refurbished 1995 Tube Stock

Interior Sequence #10b - 1995 Tube Stock 51510 Interior at Morden by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## Manchester77

How many refreshed ones are there now, last time I was in London there were 2!


----------



## Antje

It's not the only new interior they are coming up with: the are planning more:

Concept Tube Stock Interior by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## Wilhem275

A bit cold, but elegant.

Seems a space module...


----------



## Davodavo

I think the ones that we have now are better.


----------



## DaeguDuke

It looks like they're covering over windows between the bendybit (technical term) and the doors..


----------



## Nephasto

People, the big (huge!!) inovation in that last design is that it features Gangway connection between cars, which has never been used in any tube stock!
This could mean a totally different design regarding both the length of each carriage and the arrangement of the doors.


----------



## Manchester77

I thought the carriages of that concept were shorter the idea was there needed to be less bogies so less unpowered weight?


----------



## Antje

Manchester77 said:


> I thought the carriages of that concept were shorter the idea was there needed to be less bogies so less unpowered weight?


Shared bogies under the rotational gangway connector, possibly.


----------



## Antje

Flashback to 2011:

C69/77 Stock Interior at Baker Street by κύριαsity, on Flickr

I still have the RAW file and with better versions of Photoshop I can upgrade the quality of this photo to the right tone and lighting.


----------



## Manchester77

This time next year the c stock may not be here! Reports on district dave that by the December timetable change the Circle and Hammersmith will become S7 only with WimbleWare to follow!


----------



## ajw373

DaeguDuke said:


> It looks like they're covering over windows between the bendybit (technical term) and the doors..


Technical term, articulation, with the rubbery part called the bellows.

As to why the window is covered there, I would say there is a lot of structure behind the panel, so a window is not practical.

Now clearly this is a concept design, any idea which company?


----------



## Manchester77

Siemens


----------



## IanCleverly




----------



## Antje

I should point out that a number of tube and metro enthusiasts have recently filed copyright complaints in respect of how a flickr user, _metrosdomundo_, and its subsiduary accounts, _metrosdomundo2_, _metrosdomundo3_ and _metrosdomundo4_ obtained its images for its photostream.

This crackdown began after:

I took down one infringing image for not adhering to the terms of the Creative Commons licence;
I noticed how the user obtained over 22,000 images in just over year, and;
I tipped off the Squarewheels website about the user copying about 65 of their images to their main account. I noticed it because the infringing images had the Squarewheels watermark!
So far I have identified and alerted seven people or websites, whose images had been copied from, either because of the watermark or because of the frequency of visiting their site, hence becoming familiar with the image's composition.

This is why watermarking works for wonders.


----------



## Manchester77

Looking through their images you can spot quite a few of them. Seems they've even got the Wikipedia imagines too! Noticed quite a lot of Bowroaduk's images too


----------



## MrAronymous

Tube Concept video


----------



## nr23Derek

Love the train, but really, really hate the circular front. It just looks ugly.

Please don't...

Derek


----------



## Manchester77

Apparently it's supposed to be based on the roundel but if true seems to be very loosely!


----------



## Manchester77

Plus as Camden would be one of the interchanges between the branches and will need rebuilding to add more capacity for interchanges.


----------



## Robi_damian

*Proposal for private sponsorship of the Tube*

Next station is: BurgerKing, alight here for national and international rail services at Kings Cross-St Pancras Station. This is a Coca-Cola line service to: EDF.

Conservative MP proposes use of sponsorship to mitigate fare rises in the Underground.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24741733


----------



## Wilhem275

I've seen sponsored PT applied in Bonn and Istanbul. Even if it is not too obtrusive, the effect ranges from "unnoticed" to "ridiculous"...

The thing is at high risk of backfire for the sponsor. It may actually work if you begin with a run-down service and you sponsorize a better one, so that people can appreciate the improvement linked to your brand, but sponsorizing things just as they are... meh.

Although BurgerKing's Cross sounds funny :lol:


----------



## Manchester77

James Bond Street
Westfield Stratford
Barcleys Bank
Greg's the Baker Street

Nah, names are names you can't go changing them every 6 months. I have no problem with advertising vinyls on the trains or more posters but actual station names, no. Considering how many tourists use the network surely it'd just confuse people not to mention require all on train announcements, PIS, station announcements be changed.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Heinekensington Station.


----------



## Woonsocket54

Elephant and White Castle
Vitamin Waterloo
Seven-Up Sisters
CockFoster's Australian for Beer
Credit Suisse Cottage
iPaddington


----------



## Svartmetall

Argh! Not in London too! That's just cringeworthy. I thought it was terrible enough when it was occurring in Madrid.


----------



## 437.001

Daily Mail Aldwych.
Virgin Elephant & Castle.
Renault Hainault.
Jack Daniels Canada Water.
Dr Martens Wimbledon.
Ryanair Euston.

:troll:


----------



## onetwothree

Kilkennyburn
London Pride Bridge
Starbucks Lane
Ladbrokes Grove
Bow Church of Scientology
Regent's Q-Park


----------



## Fatfield

Kings Cross & Blackwell


----------



## jonnyboy

stratford fiesta.....


----------



## Paul Easton

In March 2006 the Croydon Tramlink stop 'Ampere Way' was renamed 'IKEA Ampere Way' in a sponsorship deal - the stop is across the road from the store. It reverted to its former name after a couple of years.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ikea_Ampere_Way_Sign.jpg


----------



## ajw373

Paul Easton said:


> In March 2006 the Croydon Tramlink stop 'Ampere Way' was renamed 'IKEA Ampere Way' in a sponsorship deal - the stop is across the road from the store. It reverted to its former name after a couple of years.
> 
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ikea_Ampere_Way_Sign.jpg


That one at least makes sense, because Ikea is the main reason for that stop.


----------



## Regeneration is cool

I love London.


----------



## rdgnrdgn

> I've seen sponsored PT applied in Bonn and Istanbul.


In İstanbul, they changed the name of "Atatürk Organize Sanayi Station" as "Atatürk Organize Sanayi Vodafone Station". Also they changed the announcement. I think it is the longest station name in the world.:nuts: A bit confusing for tourists.


----------



## gambarini

D78 stock (in CANNON STREET)!
GREAT


----------



## desmo

I haven't seen it in this thread yet - proposed 24h service on selected lines (weekend only) from 2015: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/cstp-night-map-2.jpg


----------



## dimlys1994

The same news from Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/all-night-services-in-london-underground-vision.html
> 
> *All-night services in London Underground vision*
> 
> 21 Nov 2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mayor of London Boris Johnson and London Underground Managing Director Mike Brown unveil a map of proposed night routes._
> 
> UK: A ‘vision for the future’ of the London Underground was set out by Mayor of London Boris Johnson and London Underground Managing Director Mike Brown on November 21.
> 
> The proposals include running some services throughout the night on weekends and the redeployment of station staff. Transport for London says the proposed changes will result in savings of £50m per year.
> 
> ‘Now it is time to take the Tube to the next level and so for the first time in London’s history, we will provide a regular 24 h “Night Tube” service at weekends’, said Johnson. ‘This will not just boost jobs and our vibrant night-time economy, it will further cement London’s reputation as the best big city on the planet to in which to live, work, visit and invest.’
> 
> All-night services would be introduced on Friday and Saturday nights in 2015. Services would initially run on the Victoria, Jubilee, Piccadilly, Central and Northern lines, but may be expanded to other routes ‘in subsequent years’.
> 
> Noting that ticket offices are used in less than 3% of passenger journeys, Johnson and Brown propose that station staff should in future be redeployed to assist passengers in the ticket halls and on platforms. More ticket machines are to be installed, and staff would be equipped with mobile devices to monitor station systems. Wi-fi coverage is to be introduced on all underground stations that do not currently have it by the end of 2014 with the exception of four stations that are currently being upgraded.
> 
> London Underground proposes to classify its stations into four categories from 2015:
> 
> *Gateway*. The main visitor entry points to London, with a high proportion of people unfamiliar with the network. These would have enhanced visitor information centres and 30% more ticket hall staff than are currently provided.
> 
> *Destination*. Busy city centre stations would have 30% more ticket hall staff than at present.
> 
> *Metro*. Predominantly inner-city stations with many regular users.
> 
> *Local*. Smaller stations, predominantly in outer London that have lower passenger numbers.
> 
> Contactless bank card payment will be rolled out from 2014; this is already operational on TfL’s bus services. Other changes to ticketing include ‘automatic completion’ of journeys when passengers do not touch out with an Oyster card and introducing personalised customer accounts on the TfL website to provide tailored information.
> 
> Other proposed improvements include reducing delays by a further 30% from 2011 levels by 2015, and providing step-free access at 27 Underground and London Overground stations over the next eight years.


----------



## Apoc89

Pretty smart of TFL to use the announcement of 24/7 weekend service(which is neat I guess) to bury two other more controversial pieces of news: The closure of ALL ticket offices across the network, and phasing out both paper tickets and Oyster cards and making contactless credit/debit cards the only method of payment, which I think are both extremely bad ideas for multiple reasons.


----------



## Sopomon

^^
Phasing out Oyster Cards is nonsense, you'd do well to fact-check on that.

Frankly most people don't use the ticket offices outside of the tourist hubs, where they will remain.


----------



## Nuraghe

Heathrow is such a mess.


----------



## ajw373

dimlys1994 said:


> Yes, for T5 there is express train between Paddington and Heathrow. Crossrail replaces, actually, the other service to Heathrow which run on the same route with all stops, except Acton Main Line station


That would be Heathrow Connect. It is a simple change at the terminal 1, 2 and 3 station to get to T5 on Heathrow connect and it is free.


----------



## Atmosphere

Would be very nice if the Elephant & Castle station will be renovated/renewed. It's really an awful station visually and practical wise with those often crowded elevators.


----------



## dimlys1994

Atmosphere said:


> Would be very nice if the Elephant & Castle station will be renovated/renewed. It's really an awful station visually and practical wise with those often crowded elevators.


Surprisingly, new Bank Northern line entrance also could have only lifts to platforms, but as result of ridership, this option was deferred.


----------



## dimlys1994

Today official from Tfl:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29135.aspx
> 
> *Work starts on £36m upgrade of Vauxhall Tube station*
> 
> _09 December 2013_
> 
> _Upgrade is part of the work to support the transformation of the Battersea Nine Elms area. Station to become step-free in latest push for a more accessible transport network_
> 
> Construction work will start in January next year to transform Vauxhall Tube station with a £36million upgrade as part of a major investment designed to support the growth and regeneration of the surrounding area.
> 
> Transport for London (TfL) is working to support a huge increase in jobs, businesses and homes in Vauxhall, Nine Elms and Battersea, which is one of the Mayor's 33 key Opportunity Areas. Key projects include extending the Northern line, transforming the gyratory system, making major improvements for walking and cycling, enhancing bus services. The upgrade at Vauxhall Tube station is an essential first phase of this strategy.
> 
> The number of passengers using Vauxhall Underground station is set to increase by 40 per cent over the next few years and in order to create extra space the ticket hall will be reconfigured to allow an improvement and expansion of the ticket gates, reducing congestion within the station. The Tube station will remain open during the work. Two sites need to be established outside the station in December to support the work within.
> 
> The station, its subways and stairways will be completely refurbished and a lift will be installed between the ticket hall and platforms. This, combined with the existing lift from the bus station to the Tube ticket hall, will deliver step-free access to the Victoria line trains. Network Rail is also now completing the National Rail station's upgrade, which includes more lifts to improve accessibility, thus creating a fully accessible interchange between rail bus and Tube.
> 
> David Waboso, capital programmes director, London Underground, said: 'Vauxhall is a very busy Tube station, with about 21 million people using it annually, and it's set to get busier. The station will be kept open for passengers during the work and we will keep any disturbance to the minimum, but this upgrade work is absolutely vital.
> 
> 'It will make the station step-free, will give passengers more space and will make journeys through the station quicker and more pleasant. These works, along with other TfL investment in improving the local transport network, will play a key role in helping to support the regeneration of the area.'
> 
> The total project cost of the Vauxhall Tube station improvements has been reduced by more than £9 million from £45 million through working closely with contractor Bechtel.
> 
> Bechtel's project manager Hani Rizkallah added: 'Using Six Sigma, best practices in supply chain management and sustainability we have developed together with London Underground a more cost-effective construction method, which also reduces the environmental impact. We aim to be good neighbours and are committed to delivering these improvements safely and to the highest quality.'
> 
> The upgrade work will be completed by the end of 2015.
> 
> _*Island work site - near the bus station:*_
> 
> -Through December, hoardings and site cabins will be installed on the area of derelict land between Wandsworth Road and The Bondway (close to Vauxhall bus station)
> 
> _*Wandsworth Road work site - near St. George's Wharf:*_
> 
> -A second work site will be established on the north side of Wandsworth Road around the existing subway entrance/exit outside the St. George's Wharf development
> 
> -This subway will be closed until spring 2015, although there will still be access to the station via the steps at the start of Vauxhall Bridge
> 
> -It will be necessary to work over some nights and TfL is working hard to limit any disturbance and environmental impacts as agreed with the London Borough of Lambeth


----------



## mayflower232

Does anyone know if Liverpool Street underground station is going to see any updates as part of the Crossrail development? The ticket hall is looking really dated and has a filthy old ceiling that is begging to be replaced.


----------



## dimlys1994

mayflower232 said:


> Does anyone know if Liverpool Street underground station is going to see any updates as part of the Crossrail development? The ticket hall is looking really dated and has a filthy old ceiling that is begging to be replaced.


Liverpool street Crossrail station doesn't include upgrade of tube station in near future, but includes Moorgate tube station upgrade instead.


----------



## Arnorian

Embankment interchange removed from the Tube Map for station works (escalators to the Northern and Bakerloo lines are going to be completely replaced), starting on 8 Jan and lasting for 43 weeks. During that time, Northern and Bakerloo trains will pass through Embankment without stopping.


----------



## DaeguDuke

Jeez, hope they're doing more than just the escalators if they're shutting 4 platforms for essentially a whole year. This'd be the time to fix anything leaks and give the platforms a lick of paint


----------



## ajw373

DaeguDuke said:


> Jeez, hope they're doing more than just the escalators if they're shutting 4 platforms for essentially a whole year. This'd be the time to fix anything leaks and give the platforms a lick of paint


It is London Underground we are talking about. I lived in London for near on 4 years near Notting Hill Gate. Not long after I moved there they started the refurbishment, it wasn't finished when I left. Now will admit one of the operating companies went bust in the middle of it, but 4 years was a tad excessive.


----------



## dimlys1994

Published this Wednesday:



> http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=piccadillylineconsult012.htm
> 
> *Piccadilly Line Stop for Turnham Green*
> December 18, 2013
> 
> _Campaigners celebrate news that full service to be introduced when line is upgraded_
> 
> After decades of lobbying campaigners are celebrating after it was announced today (18th December) that Turnham Green is to be a permanent stop on the Piccadilly line.
> 
> The announcement was made by Boris Johnson following a consultation which received one of the largest ever responses to any held by Transport for London (TfL). Also a petition organised by local MP Mary Macleod raised over 4,000 signatures.
> 
> The date of the introduction of the stop in Chiswick is uncertain as the Mayor has made a commitment to make the change when the Piccadilly line is upgraded and there are still question marks over the funding and timing of this upgrade. At this stage it is believed that the upgrade of stock on the line may begin in 2017 with the first new train coming into service by 2021 and the project completed by 2023.
> 
> The Mayor’s announcement came during this morning’s Question Time at City Hall. Key announcements today were:
> 1. A 24-hour tube service, including Turnham Green, at weekends from 2015.
> 2. A new fleet of District Line trains in 2016.
> 3. Faster and more frequent services due to signalling upgrades from 2018.
> 4. Stopping throughout the day at Turnham Green as soon as the line has been upgraded.
> 
> Mary Macleod said, ‘Stopping the Piccadilly line at Turnham Green station throughout the day will make a huge difference to the lives of local people and businesses. On behalf of Chiswick residents, I have pushed hard on this issue for a long time and I am absolutely delighted that the Mayor and TfL have finally granted our wishes. I look forward to hearing from the Mayor in the New Year on the timetable for the Piccadilly line upgrade and when we can expect his announcement to take effect’.
> 
> Earlier this year, Mayor of London, Boris Johnson said: “I want to congratulate Mary for her tireless and determined campaigning for her constituents in Chiswick to have more trains stopping at Turnham Green station.”
> 
> Councillor Gary Malcolm said: “The Liberal Democrats have campaigned for ten years to get this good news for residents. It may not be happening straight away but we will be counting down until the tubes stop all day at Turnham Green station. Thank you to all the residents who completed the consultation forms on this subject or filled in our petitions. A nice end to the year!”
> 
> Angie Bray, MP for the Ealing and Central Acton constituency said, "This is a great success for the local campaign, which generated one of the biggest consultation responses TfL had ever seen. Obviously we will have to wait while the line is upgraded, but I am hoping that we can still persuade Boris to introduce some improvements sooner than that, allowing more trains to stop outside peak hours and at weekends would be a good start."
> 
> Although Mary Macleod was thrilled that campaigning by her and local residents has paid off, she was quick to stress that she will continue to press the Mayor of London and TfL to stop Piccadilly line trains at Turnham Green Station during off-peak times between now and the completion of the Piccadilly line upgrade and Angie Bray pledged to help her in that effort.
> 
> She added: ‘Very few Piccadilly line trains stop at Turnham Green under the current arrangements. I would like TfL to start stopping Piccadilly line trains at the station at non-peak times in the short-term until the Piccadilly line upgrade is complete. I will continue to urge the Mayor and TfL on this issue.’


And official from Tfl:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29243.aspx
> 
> *Tottenham Hale station will be bigger and better*
> 19 December 2013
> 
> Plans to transform Tottenham Hale into a landmark station, with greater capacity and step-free access for interchanging passengers, have been announced by Transport for London (TfL) as part of its Tube Improvement Programme.
> 
> The plans are part of a committed package of transport improvements, which includes a £54m investment from TfL. The proposed station improvements are funded through £20m from TfL's Unlocking New Growth Areas fund and also include a contribution from the Mayor's Recovery Fund.
> 
> Tottenham Hale is located within the Upper Lea Valley area - which has been identified as a key area for growth - with plans to create 15,000 new jobs and 20,100 new homes. At Tottenham Hale specifically there is the capacity for 5,000 new homes and 4,000 new jobs and the vision is to transform the area in to a new district centre. The station will be a focal point of this new district centre and be an iconic gateway to Tottenham and the Upper Lea Valley.
> 
> Since October 2012, TfL has also been working to remove the Tottenham Hale gyratory and return it to two-way traffic. A total of £34m will be invested in these improvement works, which will deliver significant benefits for all road users including pedestrians, as well as provide a new public space and a more accessible bus station to the north of Tottenham Hale station during 2014.
> 
> David Waboso, London Underground's Director of Capital Upgrades, said: 'The improvements include doubling the size of the current ticket hall, and installing new ticket gates. This will reduce crowding and queuing at the station, saving passengers time when interchanging between National Rail operated by Greater Anglia and Tube services.
> 
> 'We are also proposing to create a new, more convenient pedestrian route from the east to the Tube and bus stations by extending the existing bridge to the Hale Village development. We plan to keep the station open during the work so that any potential disruption will be kept to a minimum.'
> 
> The planning application is due to be submitted in the next few weeks. Subject to approval, work is expected to start on site in 2015 and be completed approximately 18 months from then.
> 
> A committed £72m upgrade of the Lea Valley main line, which includes a £25m contribution from the London Enterprise Panel and will enable a new four trains per hour service between Angel Road and Stratford, is a key part of the transport investment in the Lea Valley. The new local service will serve Tottenham Hale station and is considered vital in supporting planned growth at Tottenham Hale, as well as Northumberland Park and Meridian Water.
> 
> TfL have been working closely with London Borough of Haringey, the Greater London Authority, Network Rail and Greater Anglia during the development of these plans to ensure that all the projects at Tottenham Hale station are carefully co-ordinated and are compatible with the long term plans for the West Anglia route and we will continue to do so as the scheme progresses.
> 
> Letters have been sent to local residents about the plans and an evening event was held in order for the community to find out more about the proposals. Further events will take place early in the New Year.


----------



## dimlys1994

Today's TfL press release:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29287.aspx
> 
> *Paddington station works completed ahead of schedule*
> 23 December 2013
> 
> _Station works to support increased capacity from line upgrades, Crossrail and wider urban regeneration have been completed early_
> 
> Works to rebuild the Hammersmith & City side of Paddington Underground station has been completed ahead of schedule.
> 
> The works included the installation of lifts giving customers step free access from the new ticket hall to the Circle and Hammersmith & City line platforms.
> 
> This side of the station has been rebuilt as part of London Underground's (LU) station capacity programme and as well new lifts, the station now boasts a new entrance from the Paddington Basin side of the station, a spacious new station concourse and ticket hall, better access to the mainline concourse, two new stairways, improved CCTV, extended platforms to accommodate new, longer air-conditioned trains.
> 
> Gareth Powell, LU's Director of Strategy and Service Development, said: `The installation of lifts is great news for our customers, as it increases parts of the network open to wheelchair users and other customers who require step free access.
> 
> 'Customers have already seen huge improvements as each phase of the works has been completed including a new station entrance and concourse but also from the newly extended platforms that accommodate the new longer air conditioned trains that have been rolling out across the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines.
> 
> `Over 60,000 people use the station every day and this is set to rise following the completion of the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines' upgrade and the arrival of Crossrail in 2018, coupled with the regeneration of the local area which will create more homes and jobs.
> 
> 'We have built a station fit for the future to provide sufficient capacity for this expected increase in demand.'
> 
> Along with the new lifts, Paddington station is also being served by new state-of-the-art, air conditioned trains, which have been introduced across the Circle and Hammersmith & City line since 2010.
> 
> They have dedicated spaces for wheel chair users and a low-floor design for improved access between train and platform.
> 
> LU is investing millions of pounds in making the Tube network more accessible through new trains, lifts, raised platform sections and other improvements.
> 
> Works to replace lifts at Edgware Road station on the Bakerloo line have also been completed.
> 
> While the station was closed other improvements were completed to minimise the disruption to passengers including repair and refurbishment work on the roof, drainage pipes, render on platforms, ticket hall and stairs, electrics and lighting.


And photos of new Paddington (H&S) station entrance with public square:























































Photo courtesy from londonreconnections.com and Crossrail


----------



## dimlys1994

Renders of new Tottenham Hale station building from TfL website:


----------



## Brummyboy92

The new Paddington Station entrance has a Library of Birmingham inspired pattern I see


----------



## dimlys1994

Photo of reconstruction progress on Victoria tube station south ticket hall. Photo of TfL, copied from PDF file:


----------



## Antje

*Piccadilly line* - Ealing Broadway (!)

1973 Tube Stock 159 at Ealing Broadway by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## Antje

*Bakerloo line*–Edgware Road

Edgware Road (Bakerloo line Northbound) Station by κύριαsity, on Flickr


Edgware Road (Bakerloo line Southbound) Station by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

Today:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...fl-to-re-tender-sub-surface-resignalling.html
> 
> *TfL to re-tender Sub-Surface resignalling*
> 31 Dec 2013
> 
> UK: Transport for London announced on December 31 that it plans to re-invite tenders in mid-2014 for the resignalling of London Underground’s Sub-Surface Lines, which had been awarded to Bombardier in mid-2011.
> 
> Covering London Underground’s Metropolitan, District, Circle and Hammersmith & City lines, the programme is due to see the installation by 2018 of communications-based train control on 310 km of track serving 113 stations, which accounts for approximately 40% of the capital’s metro network, together with the remodelling of 36 congested junctions. In conjunction with the introduction of new rolling stock, the work is expected to increase capacity on the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines by 65%, the District Line by 24% and the Metropolitan Line by 27%.
> 
> Following a competitive tender process, Bombardier was awarded a £354m contract in June 2011 to install its Cityflo 650 CBTC technology. The company has already undertaken a great deal of preparatory work, reportedly valued at around £80m. A new unified control centre has been built in west London, and trial running with a CBTC-equipped trainset has been underway on a 5 km section of the Old Dalby test track since December 2012.
> 
> Citing the 'complex nature of the network and the nature of the work to be carried out over the next five years', LU and Bombardier have now agreed that LU should re-let the contract and 'continue the works with another contractor'. TfL expects to issue an OJEU notice inviting expressions of interest ‘this week’, and insists that ‘at this stage there is no change to the original delivery timetable’.
> 
> Meanwhile, Bombardier will continue to supply the fleet of 191 air-conditioned S-Stock trainsets, which are scheduled to be delivered by 2016. All 58 eight-car sets for the Metropolitan Line have been delivered, and deliveries of the seven-car sets for the other three lines is underway.
> 
> Insisting that 'this is the right decision', LU Managing Director Mike Brown said 'we have been working closely with Bombardier to find a way forward on what is one of the most challenging and complex pieces of work. However it has become apparent to both parties that for the work to be completed within or close to the planned deadline, we need to push on with works with another contractor. Enabling works already completed by LU and Bombardier can be utilised when works recommence next year.'
> 
> Adding that 'with London Underground we have laid the foundation for the complex signalling upgrade', Bombardier Transportation President & Chief Operating Officer Lutz Bertling said that 'both parties have jointly and amicably agreed to complete and finalise the works that have been provided to date. We look forward to working with LU as we continue to deliver the new air-conditioned trains for the network.'


----------



## ajw373

Interesting, but have a question. If the resignalling was going to increase capacity so much, have the trains needed to run this extra capacity been purchased as part of the 191 S stock sets?


----------



## Manchester77

Yes: 58 A Stock, 35 C Stock, 75 D Stock = 168 trains


----------



## Manchester77

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12372372313/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12371971245/in/photostream/

The S7s begun running to Wimbledon yesterday (07/02) meaning that the end of the C stock is nigh. While the Wimbledon branch will remain operated by C stock for a few months yet their roles are diminishing with the number of trains diagrammed to be S7 operated set to increase in the next few weeks. From Monday (10/02) there will be no C Stock operating on the H&C or Circle lines.


----------



## Antje

Which will shortly mean no more of this:

*Circle line/District line/Hammersmith & City line* – Edgware Road

C77 Stock 5712 at Edgware Road by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## Ladiesman020

Manchester77 said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12372372313/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/12371971245/in/photostream/
> 
> The S7s begun running to Wimbledon yesterday (07/02) meaning that the end of the C stock is nigh. While the Wimbledon branch will remain operated by C stock for a few months yet their roles are diminishing with the number of trains diagrammed to be S7 operated set to increase in the next few weeks. From Monday (10/02) there will be no C Stock operating on the H&C or Circle lines.


Good. District line trains were in big need of an upgrade.
When will some other lines get new trains ie. Central, bakerloo


----------



## Manchester77

Ladiesman020 said:


> Good. District line trains were in big need of an upgrade.
> When will some other lines get new trains ie. Central, bakerloo


Central line trains were built in the 1990s and will likely be replaced in the late 2020s by the NTfL. Bakerloo around the same time too as the lines assets can be sweated since it isn't in need of the major capacity enhancements other lines have needed.


----------



## Ladiesman020

Wow really. Bakerloo trains are rather old & a piece of junk. 1972 stock I'm told, would of thought that they would of got replaced alot sooner.
I take it jubile line trains won't get replaced until 2030-2040 then.
I have a crazy idea for an extension: DLR to run from bank to Waterloo to replace the water loo & city line


----------



## Manchester77

That's subjective, they're going to undergo a major refurbishment and re welding not to mention the spares from the 67 stock coming to help them. Why replace something that doesn't actually need replacing if you can save money by sweating the assets and using spares generated by other upgrades. I said earlier the Bakerloo doesn't need an ATO upgrade for 30+tph like other lines have had.

I don't understand why people keep wanting to extend the W&C, for starters you'd need to re bore the tunnels to DLR gauge with side walk way and it would merely achieve replacing a line which runs perfectly well. No need.


----------



## Mohsin17

Cool


----------



## nr23Derek

Ladiesman020 said:


> I have a crazy idea for an extension: DLR to run from bank to Waterloo to replace the water loo & city line


What was mooted for a while, don't know if it's still a possible, is for the DLR to run to Victoria.

Derek


----------



## Antje

*Circle line/Hammersmith & City line* – Hammersmith

C69 Stock 5565 at Hammersmith by κύριαsity, on Flickr

And that's the end of passenger C Stock service on Circle/Hammersmith & City line.


----------



## Manchester77

Corse there will still be C Stock running to Hammersmith (Out of Service) to use the depot or will they use Lille Bridge?


----------



## Manchester77

District line S7 Stock departs Earl's Court by Uzair Siddiqi, on Flickr

First day of S7 working the Wimbledon branch of the district line


----------



## dimlys1994

From London SE1:



> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7401
> 
> *Boris: Bakerloo line extension would cost £2 billion*
> Tuesday 11 February 2014
> 
> _A southern extension of the Bakerloo line would cost "in the region of £2 billion", says Mayor of London Boris Johnson._
> 
> "I very much support the idea of a future southern extension of the Bakerloo line and, as you know, have initiated work at Transport for London to drive this forward," the Mayor said this week in response to a question tabled by Caroline Pidgeon AM, Liberal Democrat group leader at City Hall.
> 
> "The initial work investigating the potential for this proposal suggests the extension could generate significant transport and accessibility benefits across a large area.
> 
> "Although the proposal has considerable merit, currently it is unfunded within TfL’s business plan and it is expected to cost in the region of £2 billion to deliver.
> 
> "I am therefore keen to understand the funding opportunities that could be realised, and TfL has been working with the boroughs to identify funding opportunities and how promoting significant development along the route could provide a funding stream.
> 
> "Once this work is concluded, I will be in a much better position to understand the financial implications of this proposal."
> 
> The Mayor's recently published alterations to the London Plan suggest that the designation of the Old Kent Road as an 'opportunity area' could be linked to a future Bakerloo line extension.
> 
> This would seem to dent the hopes of Southwark Labour politicians who favour an extension via Camberwell and Peckham.


----------



## CairnsTony

As has been mooted many times one here, it would be very nice to see a Bakerloo Line extension sometime (within my lifetime!) but without the funding it isn't going to happen. I would imagine XR2 would be the priority.

Having said that, if funding was somehow secured and an extension did indeed run down the Old Kent Road it could still swing south to Peckham, though this would probably make an extension East to Lewisham tricker as it would probably create yet more tortuous curves on what is already a rather 'curvy' line, though wasn't one of the options to run the Bakerloo south of Peckham to Forest Hill and then somehow link up with the Hayes south of Lewisham instead?

Too bad for Camberwell, and I say that as someone who used to live there, but then too bad the Northern Line isn't going to be extended via Camberwell and Brixton to cover that area and provide relief to the Southern end of the Victoria line.


----------



## dimlys1994

Progress on new Victoria Northern ticket hall, picture taken from TfL's update leaflet:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Croxley Rail Link website:



> http://www.croxleyraillink.com/latest-news/croxley_rail_link_moves_forward.htm
> 
> *Croxley Rail Link moves forward*
> 10 January 2014
> 
> Planning applications for the two new stations, viaduct and electricity substation for the Croxley Rail Link are being submitted this month.
> 
> Construction of the new structures was approved as part of the legal powers granted to Hertfordshire County Council and London Underground last summer, but the detailed designs must first be approved by Watford Borough Council and Three Rivers District Council, who will consider the applications in the early spring.
> 
> Meanwhile, overgrown vegetation along the Croxley Rail Link route will continue to be cleared over the next few months by contractors working for Hertfordshire County Council. Trees and bushes have sprung up along the disused line and contractors have been on site since mid-December, using machinery to clear the line ahead of construction work, which is due to start later in 2014.
> 
> Terry Douris, Cabinet Member for Highways, said "We've chosen to clear the overgrown vegetation from the disused line at this time of year as it's the time that will be least disruptive to local wildlife.
> 
> "We're making good progress with the on-site investigations and are gathering a lot of important information that we need to finalise the engineering designs and timetable."
> 
> The clearance is the latest in a series of preparatory works. Ground investigations to gather geological information are continuing and surveys of possible electricity cables, water pipes, sewers and communications cabling are being carried out.
> 
> Hertfordshire County Council and London Underground now expect that trains will be running on the new link in 2017, later than originally planned.
> 
> Terry Douris, Cabinet Member for Highways, said "We've been working closely with London Underground to ensure our construction programme is coordinated with their works to modernise the existing sections of the Metropolitan Line. As a result we've had to make some changes to the project timetable.
> 
> "While this means it will take a little longer to get the new rail link up and running, it does give us tighter control of costs and greater certainty that we can complete our elements of the scheme on time."
> 
> Elected Mayor of Watford Dorothy Thornhill said, "It is good news that planning applications are about to be made and that preparatory work has started as the Croxley Rail Link is a key transport improvement for the town. The delay to 2017 does not affect our big projects as we always knew that a complicated scheme like this may have some slippage."


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29612.aspx
> 
> *New lifts for Covent Garden station to increase capacity*
> 17 February 2014
> 
> _Transport for London (TfL) is reminding customers who use London Underground's Covent Garden station that work to replace four lifts at the station will begin next week_
> 
> Work on two of the four lifts will start from 24 February 2014 and will last for approximately ten months.
> 
> The replacement work will require engineers to completely remove the existing lift cars as well as replace all of the structural, mechanical and electrical parts.
> 
> Work to modify the steel structure work within the lift shaft is also required, adding to the complexity of the work.
> 
> Work on the remaining two lifts will take place from February 2015.
> 
> While the lifts are replaced Covent Garden station will be exit only and at weekends westbound Piccadilly line trains will not stop at the station.
> 
> Customers will be able to use Leicester Square or Charing Cross stations, both of which are a short signposted walk away from Covent Garden.
> 
> The replaced lifts will provide a 25 per cent increase in customer capacity by utilising larger lift cars and an increased running speed and they will be compliant with current lift and disability legislation.
> 
> They will also be more energy efficient and contribute towards TfL's commitment to reduce its carbon footprint.
> 
> Phil Hufton, Chief Operating Officer for London Underground, said:
> 
> 'We want to remind customers of the forthcoming work to the lifts and Covent Garden station and make them aware of the alternative travel options available to them.
> 
> "The station will be exit only and westbound Piccadilly trains will not stop at Covent Garden on weekends only.
> 
> Customers will be able to use Leicester Square or Charing Cross stations, both of which are a short signposted walk away from Covent Garden.
> 
> 'We have explored various options to carry out these works while keeping disruption at a minimum for our customers.
> 
> We apologise for the disruption to journeys this will cause but customers will experience the benefit of a quicker lift service with lift capacity increasing by 25 per cent.'
> 
> The current lifts at Covent Garden station were installed around 25 years ago.
> 
> The programme for replacing the lifts has been developed to reduce the impact on customers using the station.
> 
> This means that total time to complete the work on all four lifts will be around 17 months rather than the standard 28 months.


----------



## nr23Derek

My most sincere apologies for posting a link to the worst of the the UK gutterpress tabloids The Daily Mail, but this is quite amazing

London Underground is brought to life in a mesmerising 3D map - complete with tube trains moving in REAL-TIME

It's going to be on a website called ViziCities

Derek


----------



## Manchester77

1972 MkII Tube Stock in Acton Works by bowroaduk, on Flickr

A 1972 mkII train has been transfered to Acton for modification and refurbishment. One of the cabs of the two sets was damaged at Stonebridge Park Depot so a donar cab from a stored 1972 mkI train from Hainault Depot is being fitted.


----------



## dimlys1994

Published on Tuesday:



> http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/new...stratford_into_underground_zone_2_3_1_3340252
> 
> *Calls to move Stratford into Underground Zone 2/3*
> 
> _Tuesday, February 18, 2014 3:56 PM
> by Janine Rasiah_
> 
> Stratford should be moved from Underground Zone 3 to Zone 2/3 to maximise the Olympic legacy and improve perceptions of the area, according to a new report.
> 
> Go East: Unlocking the potential of the Thames Estuary, calls on Mayor Boris Johnson to “take symbolic action to redraw London’s transport map and close the gap between central and east London”.
> 
> The report, by think tank Centre for London and co-edited by shadow infrastructure minister Andrew Adonis, notes that stations which are of similar distance to central London as Stratford, including North Greenwich and Willesden Green, are in Zone 2 or Zone 2/3, as well as Pudding Mill Lane station which is only about 200 metres from Stratford regional station.
> 
> David Leam, who wrote the chapter considering East London transport links, states that although changing the Underground map boundary would cost about £5m this is likely to be offset by an increase in visitors.
> 
> Jamie Hodge, of the Stratford Renaissance Partnership, says the group has backed moving Stratford from Zone 3 to Zone 2/3 for several years.
> 
> He says changing the transport map boundary is likely to benefit residents, who would receive reduced travel costs, as well as encouraging further investment in the area.
> 
> “The perception is that Stratford is a little bit further out than it actually is,” he said. “If it was in Zone 2 it would attract big businesses to the area which might otherwise settle in places like Canary Wharf.
> 
> “The reality is that it is not going to happen overnight so we need to keep making a case. The more people who are talking about it, the more likely that there is a possibility that something will happen.”
> 
> Newham Council and the London Legacy Development Corporation have also supported the idea of moving Stratford to Zone 2/3.


----------



## dimlys1994

From London SE1:



> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7420
> 
> *TfL considers commercial development above Elephant Tube Station*
> 
> Thursday 20 February 2014
> London SE1 website team
> 
> _Transport for London is considering how development above the Northern line ticket hall at Elephant & Castle could help meet the cost of new escalators_
> 
> Last summer Southwark Council revealed that a new funding package for transport improvements at Elephant & Castle – including the removal of the roundabout and the rebuilding of the Northern line ticket hall with escalators rather than lifts – had been agreed with Transport for London and the Greater London Authority.
> 
> Now TfL says that it is looking at how "over-site development proposals" could "help strengthen the business case" for the tube station improvements at Elephant & Castle.
> 
> The revelation that the air rights above the tube station could be exploited comes in a report prepared for TfL's projects and planning panel, and suggests that the question of the funding of transport infrastructure at the Elephant is not yet fully settled.
> 
> Recent indications have been that the entrance to the new Northern line escalators would be integrated into the redevelopment of the Elephant & Castle Shopping Centre planned by its new owners.
> 
> New designs for the future road layout at the roundabout will be published next week whilst detailed proposals for the tube station are not expected to be revealed until late next year.


----------



## Ladiesman020

Stratford is in no way a zone 2 station. It's all the way out past bow and almost into Leyton.
How ever why london proper has 6 fare zones I don't know. It's makes more sense to have 2-3 fare zones. Keep 1, join zone 2&3 into zone 2 and join 4,5&6 into zone 3. Sorted


----------



## sk327

Ladiesman020 said:


> Stratford is in no way a zone 2 station. It's all the way out past bow and almost into Leyton.
> How ever why london proper has 6 fare zones I don't know. It's makes more sense to have 2-3 fare zones. Keep 1, join zone 2&3 into zone 2 and join 4,5&6 into zone 3. Sorted


Well, for us. But they would make less money this way.


----------



## Stravinsky

A question: why is the Tube ridership so low, considering it's one of the most extensive networks in the world?


----------



## Manchester77

Stravinsky said:


> A question: why is the Tube ridership so low, considering it's one of the most extensive networks in the world?


Annual ridership levels of over one billion? So yeah, low..?


----------



## TheMoses

Manchester77 said:


> Annual ridership levels of over one billion? So yeah, low..?


I think what Stravinsky is asking is why it is lower than comparative cities (e.g. NYC, Paris) with smaller networks.

Part of the answer I suspect is the extensive bus network. Buses carry something like 2 billion passengers per year in London (nearly twice what the tube carries). People use the tube to commute and for longer journeys but the bus for shorter journeys. Compare this to Paris where the Metro is much more compacted and stations are close together so it is used for short hop journeys which in London would be done by bus.

Also I'd be interested to see the passenger km for different cities. Business isn't just about the number of journeys.


To illustrate this imagine two cities with identical systems: 1 line with 5 stations.

Imagine in city A each morning 1,000 people get on at one end of the line and travel to the other. They then travel back in the evening. So there are 2,000 journeys per day or 730,000 per year.

In city B 500 people get on each morning at the first station. Then they get off at the second where 500 more people get on. They get off at the third and 500 more get on. Same at the fourth. At the fifth the remaining 500 people get off. This happens in reverse at night. This means there have been 4,000 journeys that day, or 1,460,000 per year.

So the rankings by ridership would look like this:

City B 1,460,000
City A 730,000

But if you were to get on a train in city A it would have 1,000 people on it whereas in city B it would only have 500 people on it. So city A would seem busier even though it has half the ridership.

If instead we use passenger km (and assume the distance between each stop is 250m) then in city A the train travels 2km per day with 1,000 people on at all times, i.e. 2,000 passenger km per day or 730,000 passenger km per year. In city B the train also travels 2km per day but with only 500 people on at any time, i.e. 1,000 passenger km per day or 365,000 passenger km per year.

So the rankings are now:

City A 730,000
City B 365,000


That was kind of long but hopefully it illustrates how ridership doesn't necessarily equate to business. If lots of people make short journeys (as I suspect happens in Paris, and maybe NYC) then it pushes up the ridership stats but at any one time there could be the same or fewer people using the system, making it seem less busy.


----------



## Nouvellecosse

Wow, I made a nearly identical post on SSP only a couple of days ago! 

It's amazing how much stuff like this can affect the statistics isn't it?


----------



## sotonsi

New York has many more track miles and cheaper tickets - both of which help its figures. Ditto night operation and the way tramps can constantly ride the Subway once in.

Also density of the system - the Met line from Moor Park to Amersham and Chesham adds probably about 20km of route, but only 5 stations, all of which are in the Green Belt (though Amersham and Rickmansworth do supply a lot of passengers/passenger miles). While Paris' only goes out to the equivalent of zone 3, and New York is mostly dense inner city areas with a few tentacles into suburbia, probably a third of the Underground's route mileage is in the 20s/30s sprawl that grew up in Middlesex/Essex's fields enlarging the small towns and villages there into one massive city.


----------



## Stravinsky

TheMoses said:


> I think what Stravinsky is asking is why it is lower than comparative cities (e.g. NYC, Paris) with smaller networks.
> 
> Part of the answer I suspect is the extensive bus network. Buses carry something like 2 billion passengers per year in London (nearly twice what the tube carries). People use the tube to commute and for longer journeys but the bus for shorter journeys. Compare this to Paris where the Metro is much more compacted and stations are close together so it is used for short hop journeys which in London would be done by bus.


Right! Bus and metro fares are the same in Paris. I don't know about NYC. 

Anyway this made me think about it. Especially the systems of Moscow, Paris, and Mexico City. Strange though how they push people to take buses as London's (and every other city's) streets are so packed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_systems_by_annual_passenger_rides


----------



## CairnsTony

Stravinsky said:


> Right! Bus and metro fares are the same in Paris. I don't know about NYC.
> 
> Anyway this made me think about it. Especially the systems of Moscow, Paris, and Mexico City. Strange though how they push people to take buses as London's (and every other city's) streets are so packed.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_systems_by_annual_passenger_rides


There are plenty of routes that the buses serve which the trains don't. I grew up in South London and had Clapham North tube station a stone's throw away. Despite this I used the buses far more often as they got me to places I needed to get to more: Clapham Junction and Brixton for the shops; Streatham for the cinema; Camberwell for my sister's place and so on... Most of the more popular bus routes were high frequency (don't know if this is still the case) so it was simply a case of turn up and go.


----------



## DaeguDuke

The buses are also a lot cheaper if you're travelling during the mornings or evenings as the tube charges "peak fare"


----------



## Kolothos

Mind London's rather extensive Network Rail coverage (Overground, Thameslink, etc..), and buses in the UK are generally well used when compared to other places. Less of a stigma about them.

But, make no mistake, the LUs ridership is by no means _low_. No way!


----------



## SE9

Indeed. SE London is dominated by bus and national rail services.


----------



## Augusto

TheMoses said:


> I think what Stravinsky is asking is why it is lower than comparative cities (e.g. NYC, Paris) with smaller networks.
> 
> Part of the answer I suspect is the extensive bus network. Buses carry something like 2 billion passengers per year in London (nearly twice what the tube carries). People use the tube to commute and for longer journeys but the bus for shorter journeys. Compare this to Paris where the Metro is much more compacted and stations are close together so it is used for short hop journeys which in London would be done by bus.
> 
> Also I'd be interested to see the passenger km for different cities. Business isn't just about the number of journeys.
> 
> 
> To illustrate this imagine two cities with identical systems: 1 line with 5 stations.
> 
> Imagine in city A each morning 1,000 people get on at one end of the line and travel to the other. They then travel back in the evening. So there are 2,000 journeys per day or 730,000 per year.
> 
> In city B 500 people get on each morning at the first station. Then they get off at the second where 500 more people get on. They get off at the third and 500 more get on. Same at the fourth. At the fifth the remaining 500 people get off. This happens in reverse at night. This means there have been 4,000 journeys that day, or 1,460,000 per year.
> 
> So the rankings by ridership would look like this:
> 
> City B 1,460,000
> City A 730,000
> 
> But if you were to get on a train in city A it would have 1,000 people on it whereas in city B it would only have 500 people on it. So city A would seem busier even though it has half the ridership.
> 
> If instead we use passenger km (and assume the distance between each stop is 250m) then in city A the train travels 2km per day with 1,000 people on at all times, i.e. 2,000 passenger km per day or 730,000 passenger km per year. In city B the train also travels 2km per day but with only 500 people on at any time, i.e. 1,000 passenger km per day or 365,000 passenger km per year.
> 
> So the rankings are now:
> 
> City A 730,000
> City B 365,000
> 
> 
> That was kind of long but hopefully it illustrates how ridership doesn't necessarily equate to business. If lots of people make short journeys (as I suspect happens in Paris, and maybe NYC) then it pushes up the ridership stats but at any one time there could be the same or fewer people using the system, making it seem less busy.


An other reason should be the timetables: Paris metro close later than London's Tube. Around 1am on the weekdays and 2am on WE. The Tube also starts later: the 25th of december and before 7am on sunday you have to rely on the buses only!!


----------



## Stravinsky

SE9 said:


> Indeed. SE London is dominated by bus and national rail services.


Isn't this quite weird, given the boom of construction projects all over London? The Northern line extension will add a mere 2 stations.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Stravinsky said:


> Isn't this quite weird, given the boom of construction projects all over London? The Northern line extension will add a mere 2 stations.


Might have to do with the soil conditions on that side of the Thames. More difficult/expensive to put subways in the ground.


----------



## dimlys1994

Today:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ts-new-tube-for-london-train-procurement.html
> 
> *London Underground starts New Tube for London train procurement*
> 28 Feb 2014
> 
> UK: On February 28 London Underground announced that it had placed an OJEU notice inviting expressions of interest in the supply of 250 small-profile trainsets for the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and Waterloo & City lines.
> 
> The invitation to tender is expected to be issued in early 2015. According to LU's parent Transport for London, the train procurement offers a 'unique opportunity to develop an iconic design for a new generation of tube trains for service in London for the next 50 years'.
> 
> The trains would be 'energy efficient, walk-through and air-cooled', as well as being 'capable of full automation'.
> 
> The new trains would form part of the 'New Tube for London' programme of rolling stock, signalling and infrastructure modernisation on lines where work was not commenced under the now defunct Public-Private Partnership at LU.
> 
> The overall NTfL programme is priced at £9·86bn at 2013 prices, or £16·42bn at out-turn prices indexed to 2035-36. This includes risk at 15% and optimism bias at 25%. The Piccadilly Line would be the first to be upgraded.
> 
> 'Alongside modern signalling, these new trains will modernise and drastically improve capacity on the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and Waterloo & City lines, allowing us to run more frequent and reliable trains, faster and closer together', said LU Managing Director Mike Brown. 'Working with the rail industry, we want the New Tube for London to encompass the very latest technology as well as respecting our design heritage


----------



## dimlys1994

From London SE1:



> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7429
> 
> *Reduced lift service at Elephant & Castle tube for six months*
> 
> Wednesday 26 February 2014
> London SE1 website team
> 
> _London Underground has advised passengers catching the Northern line at Elephant & Castle to use the Bakerloo line entrance in London Road during work to refurbish lifts at the station_
> 
> Refurbishment work on the lifts from the Northern line ticket hall next to Elephant & Castle Shopping Centre is due to start on Tuesday 4 March and will continue until late September.
> 
> "This is crucial work to improve the reliability of the lifts at Elephant & Castle," said Peter McNaught, London Underground's operations director.
> 
> "In order to keep the station open and minimise disruption, we will be working on one lift at a time and keeping one lift open in the Northern line ticket hall.
> 
> "Customers can avoid queues to enter and leave the station by using the Bakerloo line ticket hall entrance, where three lifts are available.
> 
> "The Bakerloo line ticket hall is just on the other side of the roundabout and a walking route will be clearly signed."
> 
> LU says that access to the staircase from the Northern line ticket hall will be restricted "for safety reasons".
> 
> Tube bosses have also reminded passengers that they can use First Capital Connect train services from Elephant & Castle Railway Station to reach several Northern line destinations including St Pancras International and Kentish Town


----------



## Ladiesman020

Could they run both branches of the northern line thru Mornington Crescent


----------



## Manchester77

Ladiesman020 said:


> Could they run both branches of the northern line thru Mornington Crescent


No they couldn't, the station at Mornington Crescent was built on a separate alignment to the section which runs direct to Camden. There are effectively 4 tracks between Camden and Euston however they were built by different companies and in between the two stations run apart from each other so to get all northern line trains calling at Mornington Crescent would either require the closure of the avoiding tunnels channeling all trains from the 4 tracks at Camden into 2 tracks through Mornington creating a bottleneck, or the construction of additional platforms and linking passages and when you add in the fact that the two branches of the northern line will probably be split it becomes a total none issue so really to conclude there is no reason for all northern line trains to call at mornington :cheers:


----------



## dimlys1994

Render of pop-up stores inside Old Street tube station subway, courtesy of TfL:


TfL Image - Old Street London Underground Station - pop-up shop CGI by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ts-thales-for-ssl-signalling.html?channel=542
> 
> *London Underground pre-selects Thales for SSL signalling*
> Friday, April 25, 2014
> 
> LONDON Underground (LU) is to invite Thales to tender for the contract to replace signalling on the Circle, Hammesmith & City, District and Metropolitan lines, following a detailed pre-qualification process which was initiated in December after Bombardier and LU agreed to abandon its 2011 contract for the work.
> 
> LU subsequently issued an OJEU notice at the beginning of the year asking for expressions of interest to supply a signalling system for the Sub-Surface Railway, one of the oldest and most complex sections of its underground network. LU says that Thales subsequently presented a solution that will meet the intricate operational requirements of the lines, which comprise 40% of the network.
> 
> The work will involve replacement and modernisation of signalling on each of the lines to allow more trains to run more frequently and to increase reliability. Combined with the delivery of 191 air-conditioned S-Stock trains from Bombardier, which are already in use on the Metropolitan, Circle, and Hammersmith & City lines, and are being introduced on the District Line, the project will increase capacity on the Circle and Hammersmith & City lines by 65%, the District Line by 24%, and the Metropolitan Line by 27%.
> 
> In the next step for the project, LU says it will work with Thales to secure a firm commitment with a competitive cost that delivers value for money and a reliable and realistic commissioning programme.
> 
> "This is an important step in ensuring that the delivery of this vital upgrade remains on course," says Mr Mike Brown, LU managing director. "The signalling system on these lines is some of the oldest in use anywhere in the world, with some of it dating back to the 1930s. The modernisation work will mean more frequent, more reliable and less crowded journeys for our customers, and will help us to meet rapidly growing customer demand."


----------



## dimlys1994

Well folks, congratulations on new PML DLR station - one big step towards Crossrail and doubling DLR Stratford - Bow Road section:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/medi...il/new-dlr-station-opens-at-pudding-mill-lane
> 
> *New DLR station opens at Pudding Mill Lane*
> 28 April 2014
> 
> _New station and tracks will deliver better reliability and more capacity_
> _Works delivered on time and within budget_
> The new Docklands Light Railway (DLR) Pudding Mill Lane station – now the largest on the DLR network - was today, Monday 28th April 2014, open to the public for the first time.
> 
> The station, along with ‘double-tracked’ rails that link it to the wider DLR network, will boost capacity to enable the railway to carry an extra 1,100 passengers per hour and deliver improved service reliability on the increasingly popular route between Stratford and Canary Wharf/Lewisham.
> 
> Transport for London’s DLR Director, Rory O’Neill, said:
> 
> 'The new station at Pudding Mill Lane will be a great asset to commuters, local residents and to visitors to this part of the capital. With the largest capacity on the DLR network the station will provide excellent access for people travelling to new entertainment venues in the area and to Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park.'
> 
> The Pudding Mill Lane station project was undertaken with Crossrail, which has moved the location of the previous station to make room for a tunnel portal for one of its new lines, as part of Europe’s largest infrastructure project.
> 
> From the end of 2018, Crossrail trains will emerge from the new tunnels at Pudding Mill Lane and join existing rail lines through northeast London to Essex. DLR passengers will be able to interchange with Crossrail, London Underground, London Overground and National Rail at Stratford station.
> 
> In a major piece of civil engineering, Crossrail’s works involved building the new Weston Williamson-designed station, as well as a tunnel portal and approach ramp.
> 
> Careful management of works was required because of the site’s close proximity to vital sewerage and power utilities, Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, live National Rail and DLR lines and an entry portal for Crossrail tunnel boring machines heading towards the City.
> 
> Andrew Wolstenholme, Crossrail Chief Executive, said:
> 
> 'The team is very proud to have delivered this new piece of infrastructure on time and within budget. This was a large and challenging project with the London Olympic and Paralympic Games, Great Eastern Mainline, DLR and several crucial London utilities all on our doorstep. It required sophisticated engineering and construction work and a great deal of communication and collaboration to get to this point. It is another great example of what can be achieved by working well together.'


And some of the photos, taken from Londonist, The Wharf and Twitter. The same photos can be seen on Crossrail's website:





































And from Londonist, future layout around Pudding Mill Lane area:


----------



## dimlys1994

More photos from Pudding Mill Lane, all photos are taken by Flickr user diamond geezer:

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr

New Pudding Mill Lane station by diamond geezer, on Flickr


----------



## DaeguDuke

Hardly surprising.. The subsurface lines were built using cut and cover before the first tube lines were tunnelled..


----------



## Manchester77

UKDriven said:


> Interestingly, the District and Circle line trains are more extensive and taller than alternate lines. It's not difficult to knock the head while remaining by the entryway on the common London Underground prepare.


So are the metropolitan and Hammersmith and City line trains. Together they comprise the sub surface lines or SSL.

By your last sentence I assume you mean that 'it's not had to hit the roof of a taller train in the lower tube tunnels mouth'. If so then that is incorrect since on the shared tracks where the tube mouths and SSL diverge there is equipment in place so that should a SSL train be diverted into the tube mouth it will break a glass arch and trip cocks will activate stopping the train safely.

Also how do you have 4 likes when you only have one post (the one I've replied to?!)


----------



## sotonsi

Manchester77 said:


> Also how do you have 4 likes when you only have one post (the one I've replied to?!)


He's had fellow bots like his posts that have since been deleted.

I'm surprised you think his post passes the Turing test (though I should say that its software is better than before)...

I think it was aiming at people hitting their head in tube train carriages (something I've never seen, though I have seen people stoop many-a-time)


----------



## Stravinsky

^^ The Underground uses very small trains because the tunnels (where the name _Tube_ comes from) are rather old and with a limited cross-section.


----------



## Manchester77

sotonsi said:


> He's had fellow bots like his posts that have since been deleted.
> 
> I'm surprised you think his post passes the Turing test (though I should say that its software is better than before)...
> 
> I think it was aiming at people hitting their head in tube train carriages (something I've never seen, though I have seen people stoop many-a-time)


Oops sorry mustn't have been thinking straight :bash:
However I did think his post was a tad odd :nuts:


----------



## IanCleverly

London24.com said:


> Today’s (Tuesday) Tube strike might have created chaos around the city but you can take a moment to relax with these pictures of the underground since its inception - one for each decade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Chancellor of the Exchequer William Gladstone with directors and engineers of the Metropolitan Railway Company on an inspection tour of the world's first underground line. Built between Paddington and the City of London, it opened in January 1863. Gladstone is in the front row, near right)


A further 11 photographs can be accessed by clicking Here


----------



## Antje

@IanCleverly

The London24.com has an erroneous caption for the last photo. It should be:

"Passengers wait to board one of the last trains from *Green Park* in a strike against plans to part-privatise the Tube."


----------



## dimlys1994

Found on iTunes, I think this is best ever tube station navigator that I've ever seen. It costs 3$ and consists station information and 3D maps. Here is where you can buy it, if you have iPad:
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/station-master/id517289687?mt=8&at=10lt4K&ct=IndexSidebar

Some of 3D maps from the app:


----------



## ScuderiaVincero

^^Any Android version?


----------



## dimlys1994

ScuderiaVincero said:


> ^^Any Android version?


Not yet, but developers promised Android version


----------



## Manchester77

Had that app for a while and it's been great to see it evolve, it's very good now even if you're not a regular traveler it's worth having if you do go to London or just want a bit of fun  :lol:


----------



## ScuderiaVincero

dimlys1994 said:


> Not yet, but developers promised Android version


Ah, thank you! :cheers:


----------



## IanCleverly

dimlys1994 said:


> Found on iTunes, I think this is best ever tube station navigator that I've ever seen. It costs 3$ and consists station information and 3D maps. Here is where you can buy it, if you have iPad:
> http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/station-master/id517289687?mt=8&at=10lt4K&ct=IndexSidebar


I can't remember when it was released, but I remember seeing it on an episode of the BBC's 'Click' programme, but there's also an 'app(lication') to show you the best carriage to be at a station to be as close to the exits as possible.


Imaginatively, it's called Tube Exits.


----------



## DaeguDuke

IanCleverly said:


> I can't remember when it was released, but I remember seeing it on an episode of the BBC's 'Click' programme, but there's also an 'app(lication') to show you the best carriage to be at a station to be as close to the exits as possible.
> 
> 
> Imaginatively, it's called Tube Exits.


In South Korea the subway trains are incredible long so they have a big sign with transfer information on the platform screens - gives you the best car to ride for each particular transfer. Extremely useful as it can make the difference between catching the first train that arrives or waiting 5 min for the next one. Don't think I ever took a photo of it myself but found this one, the yellow triangles have a car/door number i.e. 1/1, 8/3


----------



## dimlys1994

From This is Local London



> http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/...ing__Eltham_by_shelving___1billion_DLR_plans/
> 
> *Greenwich Council 'betraying' Eltham by shelving £1billion DLR plans*
> 2nd May 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greenwich Council has been accused of "betraying" Eltham residents by "shelving" £1billion plans to extend the DLR to the area.
> 
> Proposals to bring the line to Eltham were driven forward by Greenwich Council in 2010 with cash spent on two feasibility reports.
> 
> Its route would offer a new tunnel river crossing and would run from Silvertown, emerging on the Peninsula to meet the BTSA on the east side and then running along the centre of the A2 on an elevated structure.
> 
> But Greenwich Conservative Leader Councillor Spencer Drury has revealed the council never presented a key report to the Mayor of London and TfL, despite being asked for it.
> 
> Coun Drury said: "I feel the council quietly shelved the plans, not even contacting the Mayor with the second report despite his willingness to consider an extension.
> 
> "If they’d bothered sending the report, Eltham may even have been some of the way towards having a DLR extension by now.
> 
> "It is simply another betrayal of the people of Eltham."
> 
> He added the council were treating residents in the south of the borough like "fools" while spending around £9m on Woolwich's Crossrail station.
> 
> He claims when grilled on the issue, council chiefs said they were waiting to see what the Mayor’s plans on the controversial Silvertown tunnel link - near to the Blackwall crossing - would be.
> 
> It comes as studies by campaign groups’ No to Silvertown Tunnel (NtST) and Don’t Dump on Deptford have shown air pollution in the area is two-and-a-half times over European legal limits.
> 
> The groups warn these levels will increase if more pressure is piled on to the road network with a new tunnel.
> 
> Darryl Chamberlain, from NtST, said: "Local politicians are backing dangerous plans for the Silvertown Tunnel rather than taking a stand against the lethal air pollution that blights our communities, and the traffic that causes it.
> 
> "A new tunnel will only bring extra traffic - it won't bring relief from congestion or pollution."
> 
> To view the results of the studies visit silvertowntunnel.co.uk.
> 
> A Greenwich Council spokesman said: "Greenwich Council remains committed to improving public transport links across the whole of the borough.
> 
> "We have already fought hard to bring the first DLR and Tube links to the borough and are delighted that accessibility in the Royal Borough will shortly be transformed by the arrival of Crossrail.
> 
> "We have looked closely at the possibility of a DLR extension into Eltham including commissioning feasibility studies into the proposal.
> 
> "We remain fully committed to this work - which has to be part of a wider ‘jigsaw’ of transport links for the borough.
> 
> "Since this work started TfL announced it was exploring new river crossings. We have consistently argued that any new river crossings should have provision for public transport and that the inclusion of the DLR ought to be considered.
> 
> "Making all parts of our borough as accessible as possible for residents and businesses remains a key priority and the DLR study was part of this.”


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/medi...new-boarding-ramps-for-a-more-accessible-tube
> 
> *LU unveils new boarding ramps for a more accessible Tube*
> 16 May 2014
> 
> _UK's first 'bridge style' ramp design closes the gap between platform and train where traditional ramps could not be used_
> _Three stations set to use this new ramp from next month, enabling step-free access from street to train, with more to follow later in the year_
> More Tube stations across the network are set to become easier to access for mobility-impaired customers following work by LU to create innovative new 'bridge' style boarding ramps.
> 
> The new ramps have been designed to solve the problem at stations where there is a gap and step down from platform to train.
> 
> Traditional ramp designs are unsuitable for use in these situations, so LU has been working hard to develop and trial a unique new design, and gain the necessary approvals from the Department for Transport and Office of Rail Regulation.
> 
> The ramps will be introduced at three Jubilee line stations during June - Kilburn, Stanmore and Wembley Park – making journeys at these stations step-free from street to train, and fully accessible to wheelchair users, for the first time.
> 
> These will then be introduced at further stations on the network later in the summer, following staff training.
> 
> The work is part of a huge range of improvements being delivered by the Mayor and TfL to continue to embed the legacy of accessible travel promised after the 2012 Games.
> 
> Many large-scale accessibility improvements are underway including TfL investing £250 million in step-free projects at stations including Bond Street, Greenford, Tottenham Court Road, Vauxhall and Victoria.
> 
> More step-free projects are being progressed with third party developers and additional stations are being made partially step-free. London will see at least 25 London Underground and London Overground stations become step-free over the next 10 years - as well as dozens of National Rail stations and accessible Crossrail stations in the heart of the city.
> 
> LU’s programme of accessibility work uses a mix of permanent level access at new stations, permanent raised platform sections, low-floor trains and boarding ramps.
> 
> By 2016 a third of Tube platforms will have level access by one of these means, up from 15 per cent last year.
> 
> Isabel Dedring, Deputy Mayor for Transport said: "We’ve been determined to create a ramp which works at those tricky stations where there is a gap and step down from platform to train. This innovative new design is a UK first and will make a real contribution to boosting accessibility - opening up more Tube stations to more people. This is just one of the measures we're carrying out to make getting around London easier for everyone – including more step-free stations, raised platform sections, new low-floor trains with the latest accessibility standards and much more."
> 
> Gareth Powell, London Underground’s Director of Strategy & Service Development said: “We’ve been using ramps to bridge the gap between platform and train since 2012, but disabled customers at some stations have missed out because traditional ramps were not designed for the unique set up at some of our stations, where there is a gap and step down from platform to train. These new ramps will mean new travel options and better, more accessible journeys, for our customers.”
> 
> Jeff Harvey from Transport for All said: “I am very happy to hear the new ramps will make Kilburn Station and others accessible to me and other wheelchair users, finally opening up parts of the Underground network for us to use. This will cut some of my journeys down by over an hour, which can make the difference between being able to attend an event, class or job interview, or having to say no. It is encouraging that Transport for All and our members were able to interact with TfL during planning and even participate in testing the new ramps. I hope such involvement continues so that all remaining stations where a gap prevents people boarding the train can benefit from a ramp.”
> 
> Transport for London has set out how it will make the journeys of millions of disabled and older Londoners even easier.
> 
> Measures being put in place include:
> 
> As part of the additional £18 million investment announced last year to make bus stops more accessible, 75 per cent of all stops will be accessible by April this year, with at least 95 per cent accessible by the end of 2016 - bringing even greater ease of use to a bus network that is already the most accessible in the country
> The remaining 5 per cent of pedestrian crossings yet to be brought up to accessibility standards will be upgraded with tactile paving and rotating cones or audible alerts as appropriate. A total of 39 sites will be upgraded by March, as we progress towards making 100 per cent accessible by 2016
> Following the success of the accessibility training at a number of London Underground 'Centre of Excellence' stations, enhanced accessibility training will be introduced at more stations and for staff on London Overground. This is on top of the huge improvements that are being made to bus staff training
> TfL’s new and improved website is now available with a fully redeveloped section on accessibility. Later in the year further improvements will be made so that the Journey Planner tool can plan and suggest journeys based on real time information on the availability of lifts and escalators


----------



## Antje

*Piccadilly line* – Gloucester Road

Gloucester Road (Piccadilly line Eastbound) Station by me, on Flickr

From 24 May to Late-December 2014, these platforms will close because TfL is replacing the lifts.


Gloucester Road (Piccadilly line Westbound) Station - Front by me, on Flickr


Gloucester Road (Piccadilly line Westbound) Station - Rear by me, on Flickr


----------



## alex2013

I love the London tube for its character and charm, many modern metros are lacking it


----------



## dimlys1994

Taken from London subforum, construction progress on brand new Tottenham Court Road station ticket hall:



potto said:


>


----------



## Antje

*District line*–Fulham Broadway

Fulham Broadway Station by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## Antje

*Piccadilly line*–Sudbury Town

Sudbury Town Station by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/medi...une/major-refurbishment-for-euston-escalators
> 
> *Major refurbishment for Euston escalators*
> 12 June 2014
> 
> _Major refurbishment will make Euston escalators more reliable for customers_
> 
> The refurbishment of two escalators at London Underground’s Euston station will start from Thursday 10 July, ensuring more reliable service for customers in coming years as the Tube carries ever more passengers.
> 
> Escalators on the Underground are longer and more heavy duty than most. They carry huge volumes of people and run for approximately 20 hours a day.
> 
> The escalators that will be refurbished are used by just under 60,000 people a day – enough to fill the Emirates Stadium.
> 
> The refurbishment of the escalators at Euston includes the removal and replacement of hundreds of mechanical and electrical parts. The refurbishment is part of the continuing Tube investment programme with major stations, trains, track and signalling being modernised or replaced to provide more capacity for a growing city.
> 
> The two escalators will be refurbished one after the other from July 2014 with the work expected to be complete in late March 2015.
> 
> While the work is carried out there will be no down escalator to the southbound Victoria or Northern (Bank branch) line platforms from Thursday 10 July until early November 2014 and no down escalator to the northbound Victoria or Northern (Bank branch) line platforms from early November 2014 until late March 2015.
> 
> During the refurbishment customers will only be able to use the spiral staircase to access these platforms.
> 
> The station will be very busy, especially during the morning and evening peaks. It will likely be quicker for customers to walk or catch a bus to nearby Warren Street or King’s Cross St. Pancras instead.
> 
> Customers changing between the Charing Cross and Bank branches on the Northern line are advised to do so at Camden Town instead of Euston.
> 
> Nigel Holness, Operations Director for London Underground, said: “The escalator refurbishment due to take place at Euston is vital to ensure their continued reliable operation for customers as passenger numbers continue to rise. “I apologise for the disruption the refurbishment will cause to customers using the station and we have plans in place to help customers complete their journeys with as little impact as possible.”


----------



## Antje

*Bakerloo line*–Queen's Park

1972 Tube Stock 3259 at Queen's Park by κύριαsity, on Flickr

The 1972 tube stock is now the oldest on the network, and forum posts on District Dave loosely indicates a second mid-life refurbishment (kind of) because of the development of the New Tube for London (NTfL) programme. On some trains, the doors have been refurbished.


----------



## Manchester77

Yeah they're going to Acton where the bodies will be re welded and the interior will probably be given a refresh (so new grey lino, blue grab rails and the blue moquette)


----------



## trainrover

Have their doors still been squealing when operated, all these decades later?


----------



## Manchester77

*S Stock have begun operating to Ealing Broadway*
Friday the 13th of June marked the beginning of S7 operation on the district main line. The working is a special training path like the runs done on the south side of the circle from Olympia to Barking earlier this year.
1st day of S stock passenger operation to Ealing Broadway by LRO_1, on Flickr

1st day of S stock passenger operation to Ealing Broadway by LRO_1, on Flickr

1st day of S stock passenger service to Ealing Broadway by LRO_1, on Flickr


----------



## Antje

trainrover said:


> Have their doors still been squealing when operated, all these decades later?


Not all of them, but the C Stock used to do it a lot.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/06/16/tube-boss-blasts-main-contracting-model/
> 
> *Tube boss blasts main contracting model*
> Mon 16th June 2014, 7:48
> 
> _London Underground’s infrastructure boss has dismissed the current supply chain model for contracting as “unsustainable” as tube leaders cut out main contractors to work directly with specialists_
> 
> LU confirmed in April it will be dumping traditional main contracting to work directly with specialist subcontractors on its £330m stations modernisation plan over the next seven years.
> 
> Tube bosses named the 20 subcontractors and three consultants it will use after a major shake-up in the way it delivers station upgrade work.
> 
> Now London Underground Head of Commercial – Infrastructure Geoff Gilbert has confirmed the thinking behind the move to an audience of specialists.
> 
> Speaking at last week’s Breakthrough Construction 2014 conference, organised by StreetwiseSubbie.com, Gilbert said: “The current construction supply chain approach is unsustainable.”
> 
> He added that current contracting set-up is “outdated and ill-equipped to carry us forward in this new, post recession economy.”
> 
> Gilbert conformed the new approach which involves working direct with Tier 3 and 4 specialist contractors in order to “sustain quality and productivity but reduce costs and potentially improve time scales of works.”
> 
> The move is designed to cut costs by 25% working directly with the trade contractors using the consultants to oversee work on the 70-station improvement programme


----------



## Antje

*Central line*–Bond Street

Bond Street (Central line eastbound) Station by κύριαsity, on Flickr

Bond Street Central line reopens today.


----------



## Stravinsky

^^ Cute little station.


----------



## sotonsi

Bond Street might be gloriously compact compared with similar era zone 1 interchanges (until the under construction bits open) but it's hardly a little station!


----------



## Stravinsky

I mean, those stations look tiny compared to the newer ones. Like, Canary Wharf and the Jubille Line stations, or Crossrail ones.


----------



## Antje

Most of our network is built to fit small 12 feet tunnels. The evolution of the standard for 7 of the 11 lines goes back to the days of the CSLR.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Lighting:



> http://www.lighting.co.uk/news/90m-lightwall-tunnel-to-open-at-kings-cross-station/8663969.article#
> 
> *90m lightwall tunnel to open at King's Cross Station*
> 11 June 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Light Lab and Spiers and Major have lit a 90m-long pedestrian tunnel at King’s Cross Station using an intergrated LED lightwall.
> 
> Due to open later this month the ‘cut and cover’ underground passage connects Arup’s western concourse of King’s Cross Station, a project which was highly commended in the LDAs last year, to the north-east corner of One Pancras Square office building.
> 
> The gently curving tunnel was built by Allies & Morrison Architects as part of Argent’s King’s Cross masterplan. The inside of the tunnel is lined with repeating panels, which run the length. The lightwall contains 190 controllable vertical pixels set behind 12mm toughened glass. The LED Trimless Panel from The Light Lab is capable of emitting the full RGB spectrum, plus a white light spectrum from 3000K to 6000K.
> 
> This is one of Europe’s longest lightwalls.
> 
> “To be honest it was a pleasure,” explained Marcus Cave, director of The Light Lab, when asked what the project was like. “We had the whole space to ourselves throughout the build, so rather than being on top of everyone, we could work with clear access at all times.”
> 
> The team built a mock-up section in January and completed the whole project by mid-May on a 10-week programme from design to build.
> 
> The seamlessly joined glass wall is backlit with LEDs and provides a continuous curved appearance, with no shadow lines.
> 
> “It was that as the client had a great enthusiasm,” Cave added. “Everyone had a great level of confidence and excitement going in to it, which makes for a project working much better. A bit like the World Cup - the secret is to create confidence in everyone about how good it’s going to be, rather than fear of what might happen.”
> 
> During its opening months the wall will display an artwork called Pipette, which has been created by The Cross Kings and Tom Sloan Design.
> 
> The lighting design concept by The Cross Kings uses muted pastel colours to soften the experience of walking through the tunnel. The idea is for the lights to create a soothing, relaxing journey.
> 
> Graham Morrison, partner at Allies & Morrison Architects described the tunnel as ‘a new threshold for King’s Cross, [that is] welcoming, positive and happy - an invitation’.
> 
> The tunnel will open at the end of June and will be open to pedestrians from 7am until 8pm.
> 
> “At St Pancras International, we have always believed that art and design inspires people,” said Wendy Spinks, commercial director from the station’s owner, HS1. “This area around St Pancras and King’s Cross regenerates. It is building a culture of creativity and the new integrated art-wall is a great example of this.”


----------



## dimlys1994

From Flickr user unravelled, the clearance works are now in progress on the abandoned Croxley Rail Link. This line was closed in 1996, but in 2017 it will become part of Metropolitan tube line:

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr

Croxley rail link works by unravelled, on Flickr


----------



## Antje

I fixed the Central London map:

http://urbanrail.net/eu/uk/lon/london.htm

(Image not directly enclosed here due to the dimensions)


----------



## dimlys1994

Antje said:


> I fixed the Central London map:
> 
> http://urbanrail.net/eu/uk/lon/london.htm
> 
> (Image not directly enclosed here due to the dimensions)


Excellent work:lol:


----------



## nr23Derek

Wasn't terminal 4 opened in the late 70's? I'm sure I was still living in London when it happened and I left in 1980.

Derek


----------



## Manchester77

T4 Piccadilly line opened in 86 I believe


----------



## nr23Derek

Ah OK, the Heathrow extension was built in 1975, the loop to T4 came later in 1984. Mystery solved 

Derek


----------



## Antje

*Northern line*–1972 Tube Stock 3266


1972 Tube Stock 3266 - Northern line refurbishment by κύριαsity, on Flickr


----------



## Manchester77

Northern Line?! The 1972 stock hasn't operated the northern since the late 90s! Think you mean the Bakerloo line!


----------



## Antje

Bakerloo line I am aware, but I felt nostalgic today because that was their (Northern line's) colour scheme for the 1972 tube stock refurbishment.


----------



## Antje

*Beck line*–York Road (Fictional)









Sauce: https://twitter.com/TfLAccess/status/512249237359185920

The real York Road shuttered on 19 September 1932.


----------



## dimlys1994

3D animation of Victoria tube station after renovation:


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Was that the station where a major fire killed several people in some 30 years ago on a wooden escalator that was set alight by a cigarette butt?


----------



## moon993

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Was that the station where a major fire killed several people in some 30 years ago on a wooden escalator that was set alight by a cigarette butt?


That's King Cross


----------



## greg_christine

Race the Circle Line from Mansion House to Cannon Street.


----------



## Niiicolai

Thames cable car.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/09/25/london-underground-night-tube-to-launch-in-september-2015/
> 
> *London Underground ‘Night Tube’ to launch in September 2015*
> 25 SEP, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London Underground is to begin running a 24-hour Tube service in the capital from September 2015.
> 
> Branded ‘Night Tube’, the extended timetable is being introduced from September 12 next year to meet a rising demand for late night metro and bus services in the city.
> 
> The launch will coincide with the start of the Rugby World Cup, which is to take place between September 18 and October 31.
> 
> Research commissioned by London Underground suggests that the introduction of 24-hour services on the Jubilee, Victoria, most of the Piccadilly, Central and Northern lines will drive £360 million back into the London economy
> 
> ...


----------



## Dooie_Amsterdammert

moon993 said:


> That's King Cross


Back in the days when I still had regular TV subscription I saw A long episode on Discovery channel about that fire and what factors played A large role in making it such A intense blazing fire.

@dymlis1994:
Good to read London finally has it's night metro, would like to know what the usage is after A month & coming year..


----------



## Manchester77

Night tube will be interesting, I am particularly concerned with the central line and whether it can cope with the intensive running. The current WTT isn't particularly good at recovering from failed trains so if sets will have reduced maintenance hours hopefully TfL design the next WTT around the 92 stocks failings rather than frequency.


----------



## whatsuplucas

Won't the night tube only operate on weekends?


----------



## Manchester77

whatsuplucas said:


> Won't the night tube only operate on weekends?


Friday and Saturday nights


----------



## Suburbanist

Will TfL reduce the excessive number of night buses after night turbe service is enacted? I'm under the impression TfL spends, proportionally, a hell lot of money to provide night services. Yes, shift workers need them, but apparently the main use is to allow people to go out at night on subsidized transportation, which doesn't seem to be the best use of public funds. Maybe they could bring a night time surcharge on Oyster cards, like £ 3 or 4 per night, regardless of number of trips?


----------



## Stofvdw

Falubaz said:


> ^^Still pretty stupid to add new stations to the network, that are kind of 'isolated'.


Nope It was don on purpose.
What is difficult to see from a distance, is the problem of overcrowding this would create. At Vauxhall, the victoria line fills up completely with people from the SW of london that arrived on train. There would be no space left for the passenger on the Nine Elm's and Battersea's development.

Also the nothern line would be a very quick link to Bank station, adding extra overcrowding to the very popular northern line.

So how much TfL loves interchanges, it has to be cautious about this new link.

It would make perfect sense to prolong this extension until Clapham Junction. Then overcrowding would be even more huge. So they postponed this extension until Crossrail 2 is build, and the northern line is split in 2 separate lines (so there can be 32 thp on each branch, needed is a rebuilt of Camden Tube station).

So it is actually a very wise decision instead of a stupid one. This is the result of huge ammounts of demand prediction, and the effect on the network :banana:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...s-on-bakerloo-line-extension.html?channel=542
> 
> *Consultation begins on Bakerloo Line extension*
> Tuesday, September 30, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TRANSPORT for London (TfL) launched a public consultation on September 30 on proposals to extend London Underground's Bakerloo Line south from its existing terminus at Elephant & Castle to serve the districts of Lewisham and Bromley.
> 
> London's population is expected to exceed 10 million in 2030 and TfL says this will increase the strain on already-congested road and rail networks in the southeast of the city, an area not currently served by the tube network due to the density of heavy rail lines.
> 
> While the alignment for the extension has not been finalised, TfL has issued an indicative route map for a line running via the existing main line stations at New Cross Gate, Lewisham, and Catford Bridge before continuing south to New Beckenham, Elmers End, and Hayes. Two route options have been identified between Elephant & Castle and New Cross Gate: a northern alignment via Old Kent Road and a southern route through Camberwell and Peckham Rye. An underground link east from New Beckenham to Bromley Town Centre is also being considered as part of the proposals
> 
> ...


And map:


----------



## dimlys1994

Consultation launched on new tram loop beyond East Croydon stop. You can find here. Here are three options. Option 1 - Via Dingwall / Lansdown Road - anticlockwise routeing of trams:










Option 2 - Via Lansdowne / Dingwall Road - clockwise routeing of trams:










Option 3 - Via Dingwall / Sydenham Road - anticlockwise routeing of trams:


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## sotonsi

I like Option 2, though I understand the issues on Wellesey Road. Option 1 creates a conflict point where the looping trains leaving East Croydon cross the track entering East Croydon, which doesn't exist on option 2.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...hern-line-extension-legal-powers-granted.html
> 
> *Northern Line extension legal powers granted*
> 13 Nov 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McLoughlin has granted a Transport & Works Act Order for Transport for London to extend London Underground’s Northern Line to Battersea.
> 
> TfL submitted a TWO application in April 2013, which was followed by a formal consultation and public inquiry. Construction of the 3·3 km extension with two stations could begin early next year for opening in 2020.
> 
> ‘I am delighted we can confirm that early next year the spades will be hitting the ground for the creation of the Northern line extension. Driven by improved transport links, this part of central London is set to move forward a century in a matter of a few years, supporting 24 000 new jobs and more than 18 000 new homes’, said Mayor Boris Johnson
> 
> ...


----------



## FabriFlorence

6 years to build 2 stations and only 3,3 km? Works in London are very slow! In Madrid were built 55 km of new metro lines in 5 years.


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## Innsertnamehere

its pretty fast really, subways often take much longer. Madrid has some sort of magic formula to get their network built so fast.

the length also doesn't really matter a whole lot in terms of construction timelines, a 5km line takes essentially the same amount of time as a 15km line due to the way the lines are built.


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## Alargule

The 'magic formula' Madrid used was largely based on EU funding. That's why construction came to an almost complete stop once Spain and the EU got hit by the financial crisis.

And maybe for the better. The frantic pace of construction seemed to create its own bubble.


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## Jim856796

ajw373 said:


> If you took the time to read the ariticle you would see that the extension will use existing surface lines south of Lewisham. As for tunnelling on the south, there are plenty of lines that are underground on the south. So not quite as hard as it was when the tube was first being built, hence why it didn't go south very far. But this is of course 2014, not the 1800's.


In response to this, it is actually the Hayes Line that may be incorporated into the extended Bakerloo Line. This may result in the most-likely withdrawal of National Rail services from this line. However, a connection will need to be built between the Elephant and Castle tube station and the Lewisham railway station.


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## dimlys1994

Video about track replacement at Uxbridge:


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## dimlys1994

Plans of Old Street roundabout redevelopment, with new entrance to Old Street station. Taken from consultation page:


----------



## MrAronymous

I don't know the current situation but this looks very cluttered.


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## Stravinsky

^^ Currently it's much worse.


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## CairnsTony

MrAronymous said:


> I don't know the current situation but this looks very cluttered.


Agreed. Getting rid of the roundabout is a great idea, but I think it needs to be opened right up. I'd like to think that it's possible that the only structure in the new open space created would be the station entrance as a single structure with everything else below ground.


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## Brenda goats

Much as I see the need for the extra loop on the Trams in Croydon, I'd rather see the lines extend further afield.






Vintage footage


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## dimlys1994

Current developments on Tramlink:


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## 00Zy99

Dimlys, have I ever mentioned how much I love you?

Just about every post you make is some interesting news item. And you make so many posts!


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## dimlys1994

00Zy99 said:


> Dimlys, have I ever mentioned how much I love you?
> 
> Just about every post you make is some interesting news item. And you make so many posts!


I can't live in boring world:lol: Thanks!


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## sotonsi

I put this in the more general thread yesterday:


sotonsi said:


> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rup-20141113-part-1-item09-trams-update.pdf <-here's a more detailed look at the long term proposals.
> 
> Final proposed service is
> 7.5tph South Wimbledon - Reeves Corner/Old Town loop
> 7.5tph Wimbledon - Beckenham Junction
> 7.5tph Wimbledon - Elmers End
> 7.5tph New Addington - Dingwall Road loop
> 7.5tph New Addington - town centre loop or Dingwall Road loop
> 
> It's interesting that they will terminate trams both sides of the town centre. Croydon needs a 2CC!
> 
> Also, it doesn't involve the Sutton extension - details here: http://www.suttonmertontramlink.co.uk/?page_id=7 (including some options for South Wimbledon)


----------



## Suburbanist

Why doesn't TfL start a plan to replace busiest bus corridors with trams?


----------



## dimlys1994

Map of tram options:


----------



## sotonsi

Suburbanist said:


> Why doesn't TfL start a plan to replace busiest bus corridors with trams?


They looked at it, it fell pretty flat.

And it's not like it would actually increase capacity - in fact it might reduce it - 24 trams an hour is ~4800 people per hour, but 60 double deckers an hour is over 5000. Plans typically closed the road off to buses when the trams were at 24tph.

Cross River Tram gave service levels and ridership figures that were basically were basically the line full at the time.


----------



## nidave

00Zy99 said:


> IIRC, they said that they're going to try to put back as much of them as they can. So hopefully it won't be too bad.


Isnt all the tile art listed on the underground?


----------



## sotonsi

nidave said:


> Isnt all the tile art listed on the underground?


No.

Tottenham Court Road isn't listed.

There has been a tendency when re-doing stations with Edwardian tiled platforms to reveal and restore the tiling. Put back as much as possible seems to mean that they will try and save the original tiles, but if any of them do break, they'll replace them.


----------



## Manchester77

At Covent Garden when they refurbished the station they simply installed new replica tiles over the original Green tiling. There's photos of it happening


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## nidave

Thanks. the white tiles on the Northern Platform and what looks like LED lighting looks amazing and very bright - wonder how long it will stay like that


----------



## future.architect

There are a few examples of Leslie Green tiling left at Tottenham Court Road which you can still see if you are very quick. 

If you take the emergency stairs down from the ticket hall you end up in the lower lift lobby for the northern line which has a rather fetching teal and magenta colour scheme.

This area will not be accessible when the new ticket hall comes into use in a few days. 

The Central Line areas only ever had plain white tiling because the line was not built by Yerkes.


----------



## Stravinsky

I hope TCR loses all those tiles. They may be distracting commuters.


----------



## dimlys1994

Again videos on long awaited headline:


----------



## dimlys1994

Brand new Tottenham Court Road station ticket hall was opened yesterday:



DarJoLe said:


> The Tottenham Court Road ticket hall opened a day early. Very sparkly. Will be interesting when the additional parts of it open as it already feels expansive! Note all the blank spaces for the Crossrail maps and branding....
> 
> 
> Daniel Buren artwork at the entrance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling beyond this door will eventually link to Crossrail 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will eventually go beyond to Crossrail 1.


----------



## sotonsi

And in the Crossrail thread they were using words like 'bland' and 'boring' to describe it? Seeing pictures, while it is simple, it has textures and colours and stuff to accent it uniquely.

I like it.


----------



## Kolothos

Very much fits in with other newer concourses with the LU blue and white.


----------



## davroca5

Very colourful, I like it so much!


----------



## nr23Derek

Antje said:


>


I'd forgotten about that station, it's been a long time since I was last there, usually early mornings going home from a rave somewhere, that floor did things to the eyes ...

Derek


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL, TCR station entrance:


TfL press image - Tottenham Court Road station by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From The Wharf:



> http://www.wharf.co.uk/2015/01/tfl-looks-at-cross-river-dlr-e.html
> 
> *TfL looks at DLR extension across Gallions Bridge*
> January 13, 2015 10:18 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transport for London has revealed it's looking into running the Docklands Light Railway over the proposed Gallions Reach Bridge.
> 
> The idea had previously been proposed by Greenwich Council, which is calling for more public transport links in east London.
> 
> At the Transport Select Committee at Westminister on Monday, TfL's Michele Dix said for the first time it was considering the idea.
> 
> "Gallions is potentially having the DLR running across the bridge," she said. "We are looking at many areas."
> 
> The bridge is proposed to replace the Woolwich Ferry and could be in place by the mid-2020s. TfL is currently working on the idea after a consultation last year
> 
> ...


----------



## Svartmetall

Am I the only one who will miss the psychedelic toilet motif of Tottenham Court Road? :lol:


----------



## Antje

*District line* – Acton Town




Author: ElectrostarGeorge on YouTube.

Yes, the S Stock introduction is nearing completion so the D Stocks are being sent packing despite a very recent refurbishment. The recent refurbishment is partly why a company called VivaRail reckons that they could re-use most of them to oust the Pacers from the National Rail network. Well, they reckon that they can convert 156 driving cars and 70 trailers to push the Pacers further into much needed retirement.

Sources for my commentary:

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fl...il-ready-to-start-converting-first-lu-d-stock


----------



## Kolothos

It would be very interesting to see D Stock on northern suburban routes instead of pacers. A massive improvement that would be.


----------



## Fatfield

Kolothos said:


> It would be very interesting to see D Stock on northern suburban routes instead of pacers. A massive improvement that would be.


Better still, use them on southern suburban routes and we'll have new stock in the north for a change.


----------



## Kolothos

They'd be ideal for some of Glasgow's busier diesel lines, especially in Metro configuration with 4 doors and LU style seating. If anything, just a stop gap til electrification.

That being said, once EGIP is complete and the fleet of Turbostars which run the line are free to be cascaded on to other routes, the Pacers will probably be replaced with Scotrail's Sprinter fleet.


----------



## Manchester77

Kolothos said:


> That being said, once EGIP is complete and the fleet of Turbostars which run the line are free to be cascaded on to other routes, the Pacers will probably be replaced with Scotrail's Sprinter fleet.


No the franchise commitments clearly state that Abellio will return all 170s to the leasing company upon completion of the HST project and electrification. The 156s and 158s will be retained for boarders, highland and other services. After all the 156s are the only units clear on the West Highland Line.


----------



## Dooie_Amsterdammert

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question, more like historical background: why has the Metropolitan Line branched out so far out of inner London, whereas other lines stopped just short of the Green Belt?
> 
> Moreover, is there some reason (geology, for instance) that explain why there is so few tube stations and lines south of the Thames?


Never mind, i thought i was reacting to the last posting, which is -quite obviously-, not the case..


----------



## DingeZ

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question, more like historical background: why has the Metropolitan Line branched out so far out of inner London, whereas other lines stopped just short of the Green Belt?
> 
> Moreover, is there some reason (geology, for instance) that explain why there is so few tube stations and lines south of the Thames?


The metropolitan line used to be even longer. The farthest terminus was Verney Junction, about 45km from Amersham! The Metropolitan Railway did not only build the line, but also the housing. The area was known as 'Metro-land'.


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## dimlys1994

Photos of renovated Hammersmith tube station, terminus Hammersmith & City and Cirlce lines. Official from TfL:


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr


TfL Image - Hammersmith Station upgrade by Transport for London Press Images, on Flickr

My review on this station - it looked much better than it was before and it's much more simplier in way of passenger flow. And nice decoration and designs makes feel that this is real terminus station indeed


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-night-services-to-be-extended-in-london.html
> 
> *All-night services to be extended in London*
> 20 Feb 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Mayor of London Boris Johnson and Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne announced on February 20 that all-night weekend services are to be extended to London Underground’s sub-surface lines, part of London Overground’s East London Line and the Docklands Light Railway.
> 
> All-night services on Friday and Saturday nights are scheduled to begin on the Victoria, Jubilee, Piccadilly, Central and Northern lines from September this year under plans announced in 2013
> 
> ...


----------



## Winter Paradox

Does DLR really need an all night weekend service? I know it's run by a computer but still. 

Okay maybe for services to Woolwich Arsenal and to Lewisham for those travelling cross river, they make sense.


----------



## Kolothos

Hammersmith looking very nice indeed. Although I'd still prefer it with the newsagents it used to have rather than the hipster food joint.


----------



## Antje

London doesn't seem to have a 24-hour culture from what I see because at 3am it is so sleepy.


----------



## sotonsi

Antje said:


> London doesn't seem to have a 24-hour culture from what I see because at 3am it is so sleepy.


Part of that is all the people who have to get the last train home. Part of that is that at 3am, you'll be inside somewhere rather than leaving/arriving.

Also depends where you are - there's pockets of nightlife, but the streets of The City, for instance, wind right down at the end of office hours.

24h tube will go a long way towards helping. Sure there's night buses, but bus networks are harder to memorise.

But I think, other than status, the aim isn't about party people, but about cleaners, nurses, etc that have to get to work early / come back late.


----------



## Dooie_Amsterdammert

^^

Huh, night busnetwork is harder to memorise? 
How did you stumble upon that conclusion?


----------



## sotonsi

Dooie_Amsterdammert said:


> Huh, night busnetwork is harder to memorise?
> How did you stumble upon that conclusion?


More complex network, and a less-ubiquitous and much harder-to-use map.

Sure, like with rail routes, you'd have one night bus route serving where you live (if it gets that far out), but you'd have to get to a stop on that route, and (like all buses) that is something harder to work out. Either you can't stray from the route, or you'd have to walk to the route (as changing buses costs money).

As such, leisure travellers (especially from outside Zone 3) either book a hotel, go home on the first train, drive (perhaps not for zone 1, but say Camden or whatever) or make a mad dash for the last train.


----------



## Robi_damian

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question, more like historical background: why has the Metropolitan Line branched out so far out of inner London, whereas other lines stopped just short of the Green Belt?
> 
> Moreover, is there some reason (geology, for instance) that explain why there is so few tube stations and lines south of the Thames?


It went even further. Initially, there was little conceptual distinction between the tube lines and other rail lines. Being the first "Metro" in the world, the Underground was not conceptualized as such, hence the Metropolitan line was extended into what (before the Green Belt laws) was thought of as a future extension of suburbia.

As for South London, as others have said, dense rail network already in place plus low population density, save a few Thames-side areas.


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## dimlys1994

Sidings of Lillie Bridge depot for District line trains in Earls Court - the area, which in the next 10-20 years will look very different. Taken by Rukuphotos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rukuphotography/


IMG_2577.jpg by Rukuphotos, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/03/02/high-rise-plan-for-london-tube-station/
> 
> *High-rise plan for London Tube station*
> Mon 2nd March 2015, 7:00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The development site combines three sites: a vacant office building, Algarve House; adjacent land owned by TfL including the air space above Southwark Underground station; and further land around the station owned by the London Borough of Southwark_
> 
> _Development Securities and Transport for London has formed a joint venture to create a mixed-use scheme at Southwark Underground station_
> 
> The one-acre site above and around the London Underground station on Blackfriars Road has potential for a 225,00 sq ft landmark scheme, led with 300 flats.
> 
> Located between the Elephant and Castle regeneration area and the South Bank, the high rise project including developing air-rights would deliver over 300 flats as well as shops and restaurants
> 
> ...


----------



## Antje

*Northern line* – from about 1989...




Source: Thames News


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/medi...to-build-northern-line-extension-to-battersea
> 
> *TBMs ordered to build Northern Line Extension to Battersea*
> 18 March 2015
> 
> _Contract awarded to design, manufacture and deliver two Tunnel Boring Machines (TBM) that will build the Northern line extension_
> 
> London Underground (LU) today announced that the contract to design, manufacture and deliver two Tunnel Boring Machines (TBM) that will build the Northern line extension has been awarded to NFM Technologies.
> 
> Ferrovial Agroman Laing O'Rourke Joint Venture (FLO), who LU has contracted to design and build the Northern line extension, plans to launch the TBMs in summer 2016, when the machines will begin their seven month 2.5km journey from Battersea to Kennington.
> 
> Each TBM "cutting head", which will do the excavation work, will be just over six metres in diameter and the full machine itself will be 106 metres long - equivalent to the length of the pitch at Wembley Stadium
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Watford Observer:



> http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/11868305.Croxley_Rail_Link__Trains_to_start_running_in_2018/
> 
> *Croxley Rail Link: Trains to start running in 2018*
> Thursday 19 March 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE Croxley Rail Link project will be completed in 2018 and the Chancellor has said it “will have real benefits for people living in and around Watford”.
> 
> The scheme, which Government documents show will cost £284.4 million, was given the green light on Tuesday morning and trains will be running in 2018, Watford’s mayor has confirmed.
> 
> Government documents seen by the Watford Observer indicate the Government will be spending £109.67 million on the project.
> 
> The documents, which were formally approved by Chancellor George Osborne in Wednesday’s Budget added: “The scheme lies at the heart of Watford’s growth plans- with the borough council’s Local Plan focusing on sites connected to the scheme.
> 
> “The plan identifies six ‘special policy areas’ for housing and commercial development, five of which are served by the Rail Link.”


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...dernisation-budget-and-timescale-revised.html
> 
> *London Underground modernisation budget and timescale revised*
> 24 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Transport for London confirmed a revised budget and timescale for the ongoing programme to modernise London Underground’s District, Circle Metropolitan and Hammersmith & City lines on March 24.
> 
> LU and sole bidder Thales are now in the final stages of negotiating a major contract to resignal the four lines, which carry 1·3 million passengers/day. TfL describes this as ‘one of the most complex signalling projects in the world with more complex junctions than most other metros’.
> 
> The deal with Thales would replace a contract with Bombardier which TfL awarded in June 2011 but terminated in December 2013. According to TfL, the ‘complex nature of the railway meant that Bombardier’s signalling modernisation programme was simply not progressing and there was no guarantee it would have worked’. The contract with Bombardier had itself replaced a previous contract awarded by Metronet to Invensys under the London Underground public-private partnership
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...und-takes-over-croxley-rail-link-project.html
> 
> *London Underground takes over Croxley Rail Link project*
> 27 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: London Underground is to take over responsibility for the Croxley Rail Link project, under an agreement with the Department for Transport and Hertfordshire County Council which was formally announced on March 27.
> 
> The project involves the diversion of the Metropolitan Line from its current Watford terminus to serve Watford High Street and Watford Junction stations, as well as two new stations at Cassiobridge and Watford Vicarage Road. Most of the route would follow the alignment of a closed branch line. Construction is planned to start this year for opening in 2019. The existing Metropolitan Line station would then close
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

PDF document on Nine Elms station consultation:
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tu...t/user_uploads/nine-elms-information-pack.pdf


----------



## davroca5

ATO power :banana::cheers:


----------



## Winter Paradox

I do admit there needs to be a major upgrade between the Canary Wharf and Crossharbour on the DLR in regards to noise pollution. When the trains pass over the bridges, it is uncomfortably loud and I do not know how residents put up with it. I may take a long time to fix that problem but they may consider it in the future with a bigger budget.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ond-to-fund-london-underground-extension.html
> 
> *Consumer price index linked bond to fund London Underground extension*
> 11 May 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: ‘The UK’s first consumer price index linked sterling bond’ has been agreed to part-fund construction of a 3·3 km branch of London Underground’s Northern Line to Battersea, the Greater London Authority and Lloyds Bank Commercial Banking announced on May 11. Specialist pensions insurer Rothesay Life is the sole lender on the £200m transaction.
> 
> The GLA held a competitive dialogue with institutional investors which led it to conclude that it would obtain better value for money through bonds linked to CPI rather the traditional retail price index.
> 
> The bond issue through LBCB’s local authority financing vehicle Community Finance Co will pay the investor a CPI-linked coupon of 0·34%. LBCB expects this to save the GLA £40m over the next 25 years compared to equivalent fixed-rate borrowing via the Public Works Loan Board, assuming that Bank of England forecasts for inflation over the next 23½ years are correct
> 
> ...


----------



## skyshakernowlive

Paris beats London when it comes to metro.
London's ubahn barely covers its urban area, and branches out into areas better served by sbahn.
Conversely sbahn is very poorly managed and useless. It covers urban areas too!
London lacks RER and has LRT in place of MRT, and many of its MRT are small and dated.
Hideous system in need of modernizing. At least taper your ubahn, expand it south, and revamp your sbahn.


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## naimabep

skyshakernowlive said:


> Paris beats London when it comes to metro.
> London's ubahn barely covers its urban area, and branches out into areas better served by sbahn.
> Conversely sbahn is very poorly managed and useless. It covers urban areas too!
> London lacks RER and has LRT in place of MRT, and many of its MRT are small and dated.
> Hideous system in need of modernizing. At least taper your ubahn, expand it south, and revamp your sbahn.


yes I think Paris is better when compared to London but believe me the size of Underground train is much better than Paris Metro. for inner city I prefer buses because it much more cheaper (2 pound/ride for Oyster) and City of London is so packed with construction (especially Crossrail construction with quite a hassle for Londoners). with the help of Crossrail it will help to ease the passengers load from Underground. RER is not that great especially outer Paris and line C and D which for me does have a lot of branches and it takes a lot of time to wait. I read there will be another two Crossrail going to the South of Thames River in 10 years which I hope the process will be accelerated to help South London to grow as big as its Northern brother.


----------



## Stravinsky

The backbone of London's transport system are buses. They cover all of the city.

The Underground and Overground have different, more imprecise roles than the Paris Métro and RER.

An RER line is finally coming, with Crossrail.


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## sotonsi

skyshakernowlive said:


> Paris beats London when it comes to metro.
> London's ubahn barely covers its urban area


But Paris' 'ubahn' has as few stops outside the inner ring road. The Paris Metro serves about a quarter of the urban area incredibly well, and the other three-quarters not at all. If your main complaint with London's metro is not serving the urban area then the Paris Metro serves far less of the urban area.

Paris needed an RER network in the 70s to serve the rest of the urban area as mediocrely as the tube was serving it's urban area in the 40s (after the New Works)!


> Conversely sbahn is very poorly managed and useless. It covers urban areas too!


God forbid that Stadt-bahn, or city rail, serves the city! But again, you're imposing Germanic concepts that don't really apply to Paris, let alone London.


> London lacks RER


Other than being the world pioneers of it, in 1868... Just because London hasn't seen a need to have special branding for it until recently, doesn't mean it's not been there in it's Underground and other rail networks.


> has LRT in place of MRT


DLR? If so then the Paris Metro is LRT! Density of stops, length of trains, etc are all roughly the same (if not a smidge higher in Paris). Paris Metro is MRT performing the function of LRT/Buses in a tiny area.


> Hideous system in need of modernizing. At least taper your ubahn, expand it south, and revamp your sbahn.


One muzt follow the Deutsche vey jah? Sieg Heil!


Stravinsky said:


> The backbone of London's transport system are buses.


Indeed, and in Paris it is walking. Because the buses are terrible, the metro only serves the equivalent of zones 1 and 2 and the RER/Transilen is more sparse than the Underground/Overground/National Rail lines in the rest of the area.


> The Underground and Overground have different, more imprecise roles than the Paris Métro and RER.


Yes, but skyshakernowlive and others demand we have the same service hierarchy that the Germans have.


> An RER line is finally coming, with Crossrail.


You mean a copy-Paris RER line is finally coming. We had RER functionality before Paris did!


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## skyshakernowlive

Stravinsky said:


> The backbone of London's transport system are buses. They cover all of the city.
> 
> The Underground and Overground have different, more imprecise roles than the Paris Métro and RER.
> 
> An RER line is finally coming, with Crossrail.


Relying on buses is poor for a city such as London, buses shouldn't be used for anything other than a short journey in urban areas. They are really only acceptable in suburban and village areas.

My biggest gripe with London's UBahn is how very poorly designed it is. For example its central line has the most weird route going south before it ever heads into London... Surely the worst planning ever? And let's not talk of the hideous size and condition of trains/stations. 

Another example would be how poor coverage is in South London, where coverage is by S-Bahn intended for slower commutes in less dense areas. Its S-Bahn is poorly managed and very unreliable, frequently over capacity and generally unusable.

Also, I can't believe London built an LRT instead of a MRT for its UBahn. LRT should be limited to places such as Disneyland and Airports.

Crossrail is a positive but far behind where Paris is now. It reminds me how awful travel in London must be for anyone living on the edge, Heathrow to Central London is nightmare so imagine other airports!

I'm not sure what Overground actually is, it appears to be a ring rail similar to ones in Moscow but acts as ubahn without going underground.

Urban London should already be covered by its 'tube' and less dense areas should mainly be accessible by sbahn. RER and Commuter Rail should link London to its bed towns, while buses should be limited to villages beyond the greenbelt and suburban London. This is what Paris does.

DLR should have never been created, Tram link is a poor substitute, Overground should merge into UBahn, and buses should be less used.


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## Swede

sotonsi said:


> But again, you're imposing Germanic concepts that don't really apply to Paris, let alone London.


You mean German, not Germanic. Germanic doesn't mean things from Germany, it means things from all Germanic cultures i.e. German, Dutch, Scandinavian and English speaking ones. 

That said, you're spot on! What skyshakernowlive is on about is nonsense. London's differnet types of transit serve differnet purposes than seemingly similar ones in Germany. Like many on this board I've been to several cities with many different takes on public transit. London's is pretty damn good.


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## skyshakernowlive

I was under impression that sbahn was the German name for suburban rail?


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## sotonsi

skyshakernowlive said:


> My biggest gripe with London's UBahn is how very poorly designed it is.


As London doesn't have a Ubahn, how can it be poorly designed?


> For example its central line has the most weird route going south before it ever heads into London...


Are you talking about the Epping area? stuff like ground level changes, serving Debden, etc rather than the middle of Epping Forest (protected land) shape the line.


> Another example would be how poor coverage is in South London, where coverage is by S-Bahn


What S-bahn?


> intended for slower commutes in less dense areas.


Is it? The ex-Southern Region Metro services have been intended to provide metro services since the 30s, if not before...

That they might occasionally be called 'suburban rail', but that is for want of an all-encompassing word to separate those national rail services from the longer-distance ones. Again you are taking the English word, translating it into German, and then imputing the German concept onto the English word that doesn't mean the same thing. And then, worst of all, declaring that because services get given this name some of the time, they must be like the S-Bahn in German/Austrian cities.


> Also, I can't believe London built an LRT instead of a MRT for its UBahn.


Where? It's clear that despite your insistence to not use London's terms, you aren't talking about the DLR, but the Underground.

It's clear that the Underground is mass rapid transit rather than light rapid transit (a definition that hasn't really applied to the DLR for about 20 years).


> LRT should be limited to places such as Disneyland and Airports.


So why, if London's Underground is LRT according to you, do you say that Paris is fantastic? Paris' system is more 'light' in terms of train size, station spacing, etc.

Paris' steel-wheeled Metro trains are about 75m long (if 5-car). The rubber-tyred(!) Metro trains are typically 6-car (so ~90m long). All are about 2.4m wide.

London Underground tube trains are 2.6m wide, with the sub-surface trains 2.9m wide. All the trains are a good 15m (one Parisian car) longer than Paris Metro trains at minimum (Bakerloo: 113.5m, Central: 130m, Jubilee: 124m, Northern: 106m, Piccadilly: 106m, Victoria: 133m, S7: 117m, S8: 134m). Oh, the DLR runs 84m long trains on most of it's network. They are 2.6m wide - it's on a par with Paris.


> Crossrail is a positive but far behind where Paris is now. It reminds me how awful travel in London must be for anyone living on the edge,


I live on the edge. I'd rather be on the edge here, than in Paris, where the network is more sparse, and the service levels only equivalent to the poorer service levels in South London.


> buses should be less used.


In Paris, they walk instead. Is that really better???


Swede said:


> You mean German, not Germanic. Germanic doesn't mean things from Germany, it means things from all Germanic cultures i.e. German, Dutch, Scandinavian and English speaking ones.


True, but I wanted to include Austria and German-speaking Switzerland that works on a similar Ubahn/Sbahn mindset.


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## Stravinsky

sotonsi said:


> We had RER functionality before Paris did!


The hell you want from me? I was supporting you! skyshakernowlive was applying concepts to different cities (such as the Underground being underdeveloped in certain areas, because it's mainly by buses, and commuter trains in the South, that the city is served). No transport system can be applied to all cities.

I don't understand why you keep on comparing _systems_ in terms of size, extension, or train length. London, Paris, or Berlin all have a different history.

That said, London Underground lines are universally classified as metro, not as an express suburban service. Crossrail will be, as it is an entirely different concept.

DLR is also typically classified as metro, not as light rail. So is Paris Métro.


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## sotonsi

Stravinsky said:


> Crossrail will be, as it is an entirely different concept.


Linking Paddington and Liverpool Street's rail services via a tunnel across Central London?

Hardly a new concept: the Metropolitan Railway had it in 1875, though the Parliamentary decree that they had to build the Inner Circle put paid to trains getting further east than Liverpool Street's platforms. Between the wars there were Windsor-Southend District line services and then, delayed by WW2, the Central line running West Ruislip to Epping over a widened GWR alignment and the GER tracks.

And while perpendicular to Crossrail, Muswell Hill to Crystal Palace services were running via the Snow Hill tunnel 147 years ago!

I know you were on my side, you just weren't on my side enough when you said that London is finally getting RER with Crossrail, like we're playing catch up to Paris, when the RER was them playing catch up to the better provision of rail in outer London. Even if you ignore Underground, and pre-WW1, services, then Thameslink reopened in the 80s.

Paris needed the RER because it's metro is slow with short and narrow trains and little distance between stops. Sure, London was foolish to extend its not very tall tube-gauge trains to the edges of town, but the main purpose of both Crossrail and the RER network is to take services out of termini and distribute those passengers across the CBD without the need for a change: London has been doing that for years.


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## skyshakernowlive

Stravinsky said:


> The hell you want from me? I was supporting you! skyshakernowlive was applying concepts to different cities (such as the Underground being underdeveloped in certain areas, because it's mainly by buses, and commuter trains in the South, that the city is served). No transport system can be applied to all cities.
> 
> I don't understand why you keep on comparing _systems_ in terms of size, extension, or train length. London, Paris, or Berlin all have a different history.
> 
> That said, London Underground lines are universally classified as metro, not as an express suburban service. Crossrail will be, as it is an entirely different concept.
> 
> DLR is also typically classified as metro, not as light rail.



The central line flaw was in West London, where the line heads south for no reason except to waste time, such a line is better covered by bus (if low frequency) or sbahn. Let's not forget how crampt and annoying London's ubahn trains are!

I'm not comparing London and Paris in purpose, I'm neither French or in France, I just feel Paris has invested far more into its 'metro system' than London has. DLR is still embarrassing, they should have built such a line to MRT standards, its as slow as a turtle and lacks several features of a MRT.

Since 'metro' can mean several things (I usually use such term to denote the entire metropolitan transport network) I prefer to use more specific names.

IMO, DLR is part of LU and is therefore ubahn, but it is still a LRT system due to lack of MRT features.


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## Winter Paradox

DLR embarrassing? Really? The same DLR that is improving and growing each year? Where it takes the stress off of buses, tube and rail. Where areas are being regenerated and not look like a wasteland over 20 years ago? 

Yeah Paris may be better in your eyes but London does what it can with the lack of space. Both the South east and North east of London are getting major transport upgrade to help the regions with jobs and easier commute.


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## Svartmetall

I honestly don't know why this guy is trolling so much, but if he continues he will not last long for this board. He appears to have taken particular exception to London too, as he's used far harsher words about the city here compared to others.

But then he clearly knows nothing. You should see the posts he made in the Tokyo thread telling Tokyo of all cities that it needs to copy Paris. :nuts:


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## ComradeFrana

sotonsi said:


> Indeed, and in Paris it is walking. Because the buses are terrible...


I don't really know that much about buses in Paris (or London for that matter), but from what I read I find i highly unlikely that Paris buses are (that much) worse than in London. I'd wager that the higher amount of walking in Paris is more due to London being a terrible place to walk in.



> In Paris, they walk instead. Is that really better???


From an environmental perspective definitely.


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## skyshakernowlive

ComradeFrana said:


> I don't really know that much about buses in Paris (or London for that matter), but from what I read I find i highly unlikely that Paris buses are (that much) worse than in London. I'd wager that the higher amount of walking in Paris is more due to London being a terrible place to walk in.
> 
> From an environmental perspective definitely.


Europe generally has horrid streets but Paris is blessed with a set of good roads.

In the urban core, I think being forced to use a bus for a journey that by tube would be over three/four stations is poor transport planning. Buses should only ever be used for very short journeys or to get oneself to the nearest transport station.

London suffers from hideous road congestion to the point I wonder why people use buses there! Nothing short of an investment into segregated public transport will solve their problem. Even turning some roads into a BRT might help, but anything must involve reducing bus usage in urban core.


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## Stravinsky

sotonsi said:


> Linking Paddington and Liverpool Street's rail services via a tunnel across Central London?
> 
> Hardly a new concept: the Metropolitan Railway had it in 1875, though the Parliamentary decree that they had to build the Inner Circle put paid to trains getting further east than Liverpool Street's platforms. Between the wars there were Windsor-Southend District line services and then, delayed by WW2, the Central line running West Ruislip to Epping over a widened GWR alignment and the GER tracks.
> 
> And while perpendicular to Crossrail, Muswell Hill to Crystal Palace services were running via the Snow Hill tunnel 147 years ago!
> 
> I know you were on my side, you just weren't on my side enough when you said that London is finally getting RER with Crossrail, like we're playing catch up to Paris, when the RER was them playing catch up to the better provision of rail in outer London. Even if you ignore Underground, and pre-WW1, services, then Thameslink reopened in the 80s.
> 
> Paris needed the RER because it's metro is slow with short and narrow trains and little distance between stops. Sure, London was foolish to extend its not very tall tube-gauge trains to the edges of town, but the main purpose of both Crossrail and the RER network is to take services out of termini and distribute those passengers across the CBD without the need for a change: London has been doing that for years.


Crossrail will allow for _fast_ transport acros the city. The possibility already exists, but its opening will truly revolution London I think.

Actually, the RER is the only true advantage Paris has on London. And the RER itself was inspired by a concept in which Germans were, in fact, pioneers. Its lines were also inaugurated in a period of great economic growth, and the French government has always had a different approach to public spending than the British, adding to the differences through which it's difficult to draw comparisons.

That said, London has a very peculiar and efficient transport system. I'd still appreciate though to be able to get from Heathrow to the centre in half an hour as I do in Paris, without paying £15. Crossrail will do that.

On a side note, the DLR is not the principal transport infrastructure of the city and it's still quite successful (even though not immediate to navigate).


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## Stravinsky

skyshakernowlive said:


> Europe generally has horrid streets but Paris is blessed with a set of good roads.


Again, not every city had Haussmann to open radial boulevards and main axes.


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## AsHalt

Each city has its own set of problem and solutions , trying to copy one city's transit system would not work well ,or worse, be an white elephant.

For example, London they had been developing the systems years before any country really thought of a city Metro as an idea.

Another good example is the Tokyo metro, that system is kind of evolved from commuter rail to the busy multi-lines metro. However the way they had developed the system means they can hardly do any extension for any lines.

Even the island-state of Singapore have to have their own solution for the transit system. So "Dude" (Skyshakernowlive) don't impose a system onto any cities or country, it would not work. And also you are bloody everywhere...


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## Svartmetall

AsHalt said:


> Each city has its own set of problem and solutions , trying to copy one city's transit system would not work well ,or worse, be an white elephant.
> 
> For example, London they had been developing the systems years before any country really thought of a city Metro as an idea.
> 
> *Another good example is the Tokyo metro, that system is kind of evolved from commuter rail to the busy multi-lines metro. However the way they had developed the system means they can hardly do any extension for any lines.*
> 
> Even the island-state of Singapore have to have their own solution for the transit system. So "Dude" (Skyshakernowlive) don't impose a system onto any cities or country, it would not work. And also you are bloody everywhere...


That's not true. The Tokyo metro was completely segregated from its inception and the two oldest lines (Ginza and Marunouchi) are still segregated as they are third rail powered and standard gauge unlike the rest of the network which is adapted for through running of commuter lines (hence the Tokyu Toyoko line through the Fukutoshin line to the Seibu Ikebukuro and Tobu Tojo line and all the other interlining lines). As for the rest of it, the JR lines and private lines in Tokyo just defy all classification as they are simply not like lines around the world as they could fall into every category and none simultaneously. 

Also, it is very easy to expand the metro network - there is plenty of scope, but not much political will given the coverage of the city is so extensive already. 

But the rest of your post I agree with 100%. Each city has its positives and negatives and has tailored a solution to suit its unique case. Even between Osaka and Tokyo in the same country there are different solutions (Tokyo's spaghetti metro compared to Osaka's grid network).

Also, this guy is everywhere offering opinions on every transit system under the sun. Odd behaviour for a new user definitely!


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## Brenda goats

skyshakernowlive
Appears to have an attitude problem.....
Less aggression please.


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## ScuderiaVincero

Svartmetall said:


> Also, this guy is everywhere offering opinions on every transit system under the sun. Odd behaviour for a new user definitely!


If I may be so bold, I'd say he's enthusiastic, but not quite used to forum etiquette.


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## skyshakernowlive

Svartmetall said:


> That's not true. The Tokyo metro was completely segregated from its inception and the two oldest lines (Ginza and Marunouchi) are still segregated as they are third rail powered and standard gauge unlike the rest of the network which is adapted for through running of commuter lines (hence the Tokyu Toyoko line through the Fukutoshin line to the Seibu Ikebukuro and Tobu Tojo line and all the other interlining lines). As for the rest of it, the JR lines and private lines in Tokyo just defy all classification as they are simply not like lines around the world as they could fall into every category and none simultaneously.
> 
> Also, it is very easy to expand the metro network - there is plenty of scope, but not much political will given the coverage of the city is so extensive already.
> 
> But the rest of your post I agree with 100%. Each city has its positives and negatives and has tailored a solution to suit its unique case. Even between Osaka and Tokyo in the same country there are different solutions (Tokyo's spaghetti metro compared to Osaka's grid network).
> 
> Also, this guy is everywhere offering opinions on every transit system under the sun. Odd behaviour for a new user definitely!


If by JR and Private Lines, you mean the Commuter and JR lines, I think they are best classed a sbahn. They remind me of Thameslink, and increase the commuter zone of cities greatly.

The main difference between other systems and Tokyo is how ubahn trains merge into the sbahn network, and run services similar to RER trains. 

Something I want to understand is how much influence privatization has. For example, how did the integration between sbahn and ubahn services happen? And why are Toei and Metro not merged?


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## sotonsi

Tramlink is 15!
Here's a look at what the system might look like in 15 years

And here's a map I've drawn, with that on, save the Western turnback, as I couldn't work out where it would go or what trams (based on the frequencies they state) would supply it. Each line is 7-8tph and actual service pattern is unknown, as are a few other small details.


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## dimlys1994

Wimbledon station, taken by stevekeiretsu. Blue hoarding is for new second Tramlink platform:


Wimbledon station by stevekeiretsu, on Flickr


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## Stravinsky

Why isn't Tramlink included in the standard Tube map.


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## sotonsi

Stravinsky said:


> Why isn't Tramlink included in the standard Tube map.


You mean the TfL map? Not sure. Probably because it is treated as buses for fares, etc.

I would have argued about it only having one anchor point, but that hasn't been true since the Overground reached West Croydon.


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## dimlys1994

From Watford Observer:



> http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/12953400._/
> 
> *Croxley Rail Link 'worth £8bn and will create 9,000 jobs'*
> Friday 15 May 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Croxely Rail Link will create more than 9,000 jobs and be worth more than £8 billion to the economy, council chiefs estimate.
> 
> Hertfordshire County and Watford Borough council bosses have vowed to reap the full benefits of the £280m+ project.
> 
> The Croxley Rail Link is expected to be completed by 2018, linking Watford Junction and Watford High Street with London
> 
> ...


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## Alargule

The new Tube Map has contracted a severe case of Orange Overground.

I'm not even sure it should be called a _Tube_ Map anymore...


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## Wilhem275

Well, in fact it's not a Tube map, it's a map of all urban rail transit lines.

The real problem is that DLR and Overground lines are not getting proper colors and identification.
As a user I look at that map and I can't understand what they mean. I find it a complete mess.

The best example remains this:










Here the style used for DLR and Overground is used for Regional trains, which are much less schematized than the urban lines (and much less important for the city).


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## sotonsi

Wilhem275 said:


> Well, in fact it's not a Tube map, it's a map of all urban rail transit lines.


It's not that either - it's all TfL-operated/franchised rail services (and no, Tramlink doesn't count in that) and the Cable Car, but not anything else.


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## Sameboat

dimlys1994 said:


> From Watford Observer:


The "new rail service will create [insert number here] more jobs" claim feels terribly old and hypocritical. As a Hongkonger I know that the new railway only boosts prices of the surrounding properties considerably to the point that no first-time buyers (without backing of their parents) and decent tenants are able to afford them, which completely defeats the purpose of a commuter railway (helps commuters get to their working place efficiently.)


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## po8crg

sotonsi said:


> It's not that either - it's all TfL-operated/franchised rail services (and no, Tramlink doesn't count in that) and the Cable Car, but not anything else.


Yeah, it's annoying that Thameslink isn't on it.


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## Robi_damian

Alargule said:


> The new Tube Map has contracted a severe case of Orange Overground.
> 
> I'm not even sure it should be called a _Tube_ Map anymore...


And the gap between quantity of TfL services North of the Thames and South just became a canyon.


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## sotonsi

I can understand Kent CC's worries about loss of semi-fast services, etc for why the SE Overground extensions didn't happen.

However, you would have thought that the TSGN combined franchise would have allowed a web of Orange lines South of the river (as well as a couple more tentacles north of the river thanks to the GN&C)...


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## po8crg

sotonsi said:


> I can understand Kent CC's worries about loss of semi-fast services, etc for why the SE Overground extensions didn't happen.
> 
> However, you would have thought that the TSGN combined franchise would have allowed a web of Orange lines South of the river (as well as a couple more tentacles north of the river thanks to the GN&C)...


I was had a look at the London Connections map (now officially "London's Rail and Tube services") to see what terminates inside zone 6, and, south of the river, there's this:

SWT to Chessington South and Hampton Court

Southern to Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner, Caterham, Beckenham Junction
Thameslink Wimbledon Loop (well it doesn't _terminate_ but you know what I mean)

Southeastern to Hayes

Everything else runs off the map

(North of the river, there's just the two Heathrow services, FGW to Greenford and Anglia to Enfield Town and Chingford)


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## sotonsi

Stuff doesn't need to reach the end of the tracks to terminate. Nor do they have to remain within the zones - Kent don't want Orange rondels, but Herts do, Essex probably does, and Surrey might. Also you missed the SWT loops, and the ones on the Dartford lines, Orpington (where also tracks end) and the Bromley and Greenford shuttles.

However, I was simply thinking of the recent TSGN franchise award, and how there seems to be no trace in even bothering to remove the South Central Metro routes from the DfT franchise.

I was thinking along the limited lines of the following routes that were recently refranchised as part of the TSGN franchise:
London Bridge via Sydenham (stoppers only)
London Bridge via Peckham
Victoria via Gipsy Hill
Victoria via Norwood
WLL to Croydon (8-car, terminating at Shepherd's Bush (?) and supplemented by MK-Clapham Junction services operated by London Midland)
GN&C services (subject to Herts CC co-operation)
This would add Orange Rondels to the following stations: Victoria, Battersea Park, Wandsworth Common, Balham, Streatham Hill, Streatham, Streatham Common, London Bridge, South Bermondsey, East Dulwich, North Dulwich, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Birkbeck, Beckenham Junction, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Selhurst, Waddon, Wallington, Carshalton Beeches, Sutton, Belmont, Banstead, Epsom Downs, East Croydon, and South Croydon.


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## Suburbanist

A Wikipedia user has drawn a map that was featured on several media sites and even couple newspaper as being "much better to read". Nothing revolutionary, but interesting nonetheless.

If you click the original link, you can go to the bottom right where the key is and click specific lines to highlight them. I didn't know SVG files had that functionality :dunno:


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## dimlys1994

^^That's good attempt - although dmissed some details. Such as close distance between Bayswater and Queenswater stations


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## sotonsi

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^That's good attempt - although dmissed some details. Such as close distance between Bayswater and Queenswater stations


What relevance is that on a diagrammatic map? That fact serves no navigational purpose when on the system.

If you are going to somewhere near them, you ought to be able to spot the other tube station just down the road when you look to see where it is in relation to the tube station? And if you just grab the 'nearest tube' off a website or something, it should give you both if they aren't stupid.

And why does that one get picked by you, but not Bank - Cannon Street NR, Aldgate-Tower Gateway, Baker Street - Marylebone NR, Southwark-Blackfriars NR etc?

And Paddington-Lancaster Gate, while further, is a more useful outerchange.

It's nice that more outerchanges are shown (and shown as outerchanges) on this map, but some are too hard and too pointless to show.

This complaint of yours is a comment from someone who probably loved that the Bethnal Greens were the right way around (as City Metric waxed lyrical about) with the LO south of the LU. However the 'South Chord' ('East London Line' as was before Overground jumped the shark with names) doesn't cross between them, unlike the map, and Acton Main Line is shown as north of North Acton, rather than south. That stuff doesn't matter a jot!

Sameboat, rightly, realises that a diagrammatic map shouldn't be geographically perfect if doing such reduces clarity. The lines wiggle about too much already (the simplicity is probably worse than a clutter free TfL diagram) to be distorting the diagram further so as to turn it into a geographical map.


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## Arnorian

Future-proofing was not done on that map. Adding the Wimbledon-Tooting Broadway-Clapham Junction-Victoria section of the Crossrail 2 would be impossible without major reworking.


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## theelk

Suburbanist said:


> you can go to the bottom right where the key is and click specific lines to highlight them.


..or click on any line in the map. Two blinking lines easily shows you where to best change trains.. now that is a nice feature to have.

Is there a London bus map that has the same feature?


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## Sameboat

Arnorian said:


> Future-proofing was not done on that map. Adding the Wimbledon-Tooting Broadway-Clapham Junction-Victoria section of the Crossrail 2 would be impossible without major reworking.


Yup. I reserved no space for Crossrail 2 because it doesn't look like it will get the green light anytime soon. Once an act for Crossrail 2 has been passed (=the route will less likely to be modified), this map will get a total revamp, probably make it less crowded at certain area like Acton and Blackfriars.


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## CairnsTony

I really like this map. I like the overall design; making lines thinner adds clarity rather than a more confusing tangle. It isn't perfect; there are some tweaks that could improve it I daresay, but I actually do prefer it to the standard tube map.


----------



## dimlys1994

New London transport map from Jug Cerovic:



zidar fr said:


> I was actually working on an redesign of my own London Underground map when the new TfL one was published. Your work and the whole discussion about it have helped me a lot in the process.
> 
> Anyway here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some particular features integrated in the map:
> 
> 1. The center, inside the circle line loop is more or less geographically accurate
> 
> 2. There is a frequency based hierarchy for the lines (underground, DLR/ Overground etc..)
> 
> 3. Separated DLR routes
> 
> 4. Airport rail links
> 
> 5. Out of system transfers, pictured as a walk through known or unknown streets
> 
> 6. Crossrail integration
> 
> 
> Illustrations:
> 
> http://www.inat.fr/metro/london/


----------



## dimlys1994

One of new entrances of Moorgate station:
https://anonw.wordpress.com/2015/06/08/moorgate-tube-station-gets-a-new-entrance/


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...s-for-transformation-of-old-street-roundabout
> 
> *Londoners back plans for transformation of Old Street roundabout*
> 10 June 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The radical redesign of Old Street roundabout will begin next year after more than one thousand respondents to a public consultation agreed that the plans will transform the area for the better, particularly for cyclists and pedestrians.
> 
> The work - a key part of the Mayor and Transport for London's (TfL's) £4 billion Road Modernisation Plan - will convert the existing 1970s roundabout into an attractive new pedestrianised public space, including seating and trees. It will see the north-western 'arm' of the junction by City Road closed and two-way traffic reintroduced to the gateway to 'Tech City' as it becomes a new hub for the thousands of people who live, work and socialise nearby
> 
> ...
> 
> Subject to funding and planning permission, there could also be a new entrance to Old Street Tube station in the future, built in the centre of the new pedestrianised area an enabling the station to be made step-free
> 
> ...


----------



## MrAronymous

Awful design. A £30.00 Easyjet ticket could've granted them acces to better design standards being put into practice for their own eyes to see. Was this really too much asked?


----------



## Brenda goats

Jug Cerovic's map is fantastic!


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...pel-work-prepares-station-for-crossrail-boost
> 
> *Whitechapel work prepares station for Crossrail boost*
> 09 June 2015
> 
> Major upgrade work is taking place at Whitechapel as the station prepares to become a new modern transport hub with the arrival of Crossrail services.
> 
> The addition of Crossrail services in 2018 will be a huge boost for the area with up to 24 trains an hour carrying up to 1,500 passengers between Paddington and Whitechapel in peak times.
> 
> This will provide passengers with a frequent service to Heathrow, the West End and Canary Wharf, radically reducing journey times and boosting jobs and the local economy
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer, final green line has given to Shell Centre redevelopment, which includes rebuilding one of Waterloo tube station entrance:
http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/06/11/high-court-throws-out-1-3bn-shell-centre-challenge/


----------



## dimlys1994

From LBC:



> http://www.lbc.co.uk/half-of-all-tube-stations-step-free-by-2018-111400
> 
> *Half Of All Tube Stations Step-Free By 2018*
> Tuesday 16th June 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The plan to make 50% of stations step-free has been brought forward by two years. TFL says that half of tube and rail stations will have lift access by 2018.
> 
> The Mayor of London said today that London is outdoing New York and Paris, by providing disabled Tube access after a target to make half of all TFL stations “step-free” was brought forward by two years.
> 
> Boris Johnson said: “London has one of the most accessible public transport networks of any major city” but reflected that, “there is much more to be done to enable more people to get around the capital more easily”
> 
> ...


Stations that in plan as now: Brent Cross, Tower Hill, Bond Street, Greenford, Tottenham Court Road, Vauxhall, Victoria and Finsbury Park


----------



## Skinny007

Great Pics .


----------



## DKF01

Here's is the official night map and the routes that will be running during the night.
Information: There will be a train about every 10 minutes and standard off-peak fares will be charged.


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...atform-helps-increase-services-by-50-per-cent
> 
> *New Wimbledon tram platform to see increased services*
> 22 June 2015
> 
> _The new platform will help bring in four new trams, allowing 12 to run every hour between Wimbledon and Croydon_
> _Increased service will be a further boost to the local economy as demand for the tram network grows_
> _Wimbledon tram stop will temporarily close from 13 July until October 2015 while the work takes place_
> Work that will help to increase the tram service between Wimbledon and Croydon by 50 per cent is due to start next month
> 
> The development, which is part of Transport for London's (TfL's) investment programme, will see a new tram platform built at Wimbledon and the arrival of four new trams - allowing 12 to run every hour along the busy route from Wimbledon to Croydon.
> 
> To complete the work, and the new track layout, a short section of the route will be closed between Dundonald Road to Wimbledon from 13 July to October 2015
> 
> ...


----------



## Suburbanist

Why not keep DLR opened at night? It is cheap to operate, since it doesn't require drivers.


----------



## sotonsi

That's a later phase - slated to be operational by the end of the decade

The underground stations on the DLR would need staffing, and you'd need Train Operators covering sections of the line - it's not as simple as just running trains.

The biggest barrier - that has always existed - is the lack of demand for night-time trains serving the places on the DLR.


----------



## Winter Paradox

Another video from the Londonist on how the Underground came to be.


----------



## Antje

*Piccadilly line* – South Harrow

3645 - South Harrow by George Odlum, on Flickr

Long-abandoned 1983 stock train is finally heading for the scrapyard.


----------



## dimlys1994

Whitechapel station reconstruction:
http://anonw.com/2015/07/08/whitechapel-station-6th-july-2015/


----------



## Brenda goats

The walking tube map.
How long it takes to walk between stations.

Ideal for strike days.


----------



## sotonsi

Brenda goats said:


> The walking tube map.
> How long it takes to walk between stations.
> 
> Ideal for strike days.


It's only ideal for strike days if you are either going just one stop, or the line you would normally take follows a straightish line and you can't cut a corner and save a lot of distance (eg not going Baker Street between Finchley Road and Euston Square - plus it's a nicer walk through Regent's Park).


----------



## dimlys1994

Article about Bond Street station reconstruction:
http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/07/04/back-to-bond-street/


----------



## dimlys1994

From London SE1:



> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/8381
> 
> *Bakerloo line extension: TfL to make the case to Treasury*
> Saturday 11 July 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Transport for London will this month present a business case for an extension of the Bakerloo line to the Treasury in advance of the Government spending review due to be published later this year_
> 
> Cllr Mark Williams, Southwark's cabinet member for regeneration and new homes, this week insisted that an extension with two branches through Southwark – one via Old Kent Road and another serving Camberwell and Peckham – was still possible.
> 
> "Current forecasts suggest that an alignment via Old Kent Road would have the strongest business case, but an alignment via Camberwell also shows a very strong case, well in excess of TfL's required threshold for investment," said Cllr Williams
> 
> ...


----------



## tonii

With the renovation happens in Lewisham. The property price here will be skyrocket once the plan get approved.


----------



## Brenda goats

To strike, and deprive citizens of public transport is a social evil.


----------



## R-Link

Why are trains in London underground so oval? Is this a special firm feature of underground?


----------



## Svartmetall

Historical reasons. They fit the dimensions of the tunnels they travelled through, and if I recall correctly (please correct me on this) the original deep level tunnels were tunnelled through rather problematic London clay, hence their economical sizing. The cut-and-cover lines, which were some of the first constructed and include the District, Metropolitan, Circle etc are of a more regular dimension. It is only those deep level tubes that are very "cosy".


----------



## Winter Paradox

Can someone tell me if there will be an actual benefit in closing ticket halls because my local tube station is about to have theirs closed and I also see alot people use them too. It's a stupid idea in my opinion.

Cutting cost is not a viable answer. That line has been used for everything.


----------



## sotonsi

A key aim is to get the staff out of an office, and onto the concourses.

Last time I attempted to use a ticket office (actually, I just wanted to speak to a member of staff, but they insisted I needed a ticket office), I spoke to a staff member sitting on the seat and looking out the window of the ticket office, who berated me, and told me to come back in 2 hours when the ticket office was open. The other member of staff in the office (facing the assistance window on the platform) joined in the conversation and was much more helpful.

Without a ticket office, with its opening hours and walls, the rude member of staff would have had to actually provide assistance, rather than pretend that the window she was sat at was closed. She wasn't on a break, and there were other chairs that didn't face the public, but she refused to do her job as the ticket office was 'closed'.


----------



## Winter Paradox

sotonsi said:


> A key aim is to get the staff out of an office, and onto the concourses.
> 
> Last time I attempted to use a ticket office (actually, I just wanted to speak to a member of staff, but they insisted I needed a ticket office), I spoke to a staff member sitting on the seat and looking out the window of the ticket office, who berated me, and told me to come back in 2 hours when the ticket office was open. The other member of staff in the office (facing the assistance window on the platform) joined in the conversation and was much more helpful.
> 
> Without a ticket office, with its opening hours and walls, the rude member of staff would have had to actually provide assistance, rather than pretend that the window she was sat at was closed. She wasn't on a break, and there were other chairs that didn't face the public, but she refused to do her job as the ticket office was 'closed'.


That and if they aren't on strike, am I right? :lol:

I do know what you mean and I hope that only a few stations have the huge problem of rude staff and not the majority. They just have to make sure there is two to three staff members in each station. I do like how they do it on TFL Rail and Overground Stations, making sure staff is visible. However I have had bad experiences on Underground Stations where the machines stop working and don't except my bank card and the last chance I had was the ticket office. 

Also what about for those with travel warrants who need the ticket offices to scan it? Can the machine do that too or are they screwed?


----------



## DaeguDuke

Winter Paradox said:


> However I have had bad experiences on Underground Stations where the machines stop working and don't except my bank card and the last chance I had was the ticket office.


Just a small point but I think you'll be able to use contactless bank cards soon. The tech has existed for years and years now, once we catch up then the vast majority of people won't need to buy tickets or Oyster before travelling.


----------



## Paul Easton

DaeguDuke said:


> Just a small point but I think you'll be able to use contactless bank cards soon. The tech has existed for years and years now, once we catch up then the vast majority of people won't need to buy tickets or Oyster before travelling.


TFL have been accepting contactless cards since last September - and Apple Pay.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless


----------



## tonii

Im not that impress with contactless. It is a lot slower than normal oyster card. And it cant show how much ive used per each travel. Worst with DLR when sometime it doesnt successfully checkout and u dont know. There was a time that it took 10 pounds from 1 journey.


----------



## Winter Paradox

And you can't use contactless cards as a travelcard, weekly and monthly, so there still needs to be stations with working and updated ticket machine systems


----------



## DaeguDuke

Since last September? Haven't been in a while. I've got my oyster linked with my rail card, presumed that you couldn't link up contactless card in the same way. I used my bank card in Korea, they've had their system set up for years. But there're no monthly passes / rail cards there so that simplifies things. Don't see why you can't just set your bank card at a machine or online for weekly/monthly passes, will they offer this in the future?


----------



## Winter Paradox

Londonist quick summary of Apple Pay. 






Android have had NFC for several years but they decided to go for Apple instead who just started their contact connection.

What's your thoughts on Apple Pay being used?


----------



## Antje

Interesting concept, but it doesn't apply to me as I have the Freedom Pass (i.e. free travel for the disabled) in the TfL tariff area.


----------



## whatsuplucas

It's a very interesting concept, but it still needs a few improvements (reliability, speed) to make it a really feasible way of paying for your journeys.


----------



## dimlys1994

More on second tram track at Wimbledon station:
http://anonw.com/2015/07/23/tramlink-works-at-wimbledon/


----------



## chris.haynes

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> Almost entirely irrelevant.
> 
> I don't know anyone who has actually used them at all.


- you would be very surprised actually, i know quite a few people who use them it obviously depends where you office and home is - if your lucky enough to have both fairly close to the water then its a far less stressful journey then by train...


----------



## TheMoses

DaeguDuke said:


> Since last September? Haven't been in a while. I've got my oyster linked with my rail card, presumed that you couldn't link up contactless card in the same way. I used my bank card in Korea, they've had their system set up for years. But there're no monthly passes / rail cards there so that simplifies things. Don't see why you can't just set your bank card at a machine or online for weekly/monthly passes, will they offer this in the future?


I wasn't aware anywhere else of significance accepted contactless cards? I know in Seoul the transport smart card has evolved to be more like a debit card and can be used in many stores. But could I just used my Santader credit card to pay by touching readers in Seoul? Or would I need a local credit card designed for use with the readers?


----------



## DaeguDuke

Korean bank card. Most Korean banks require non-Koreans to get a Korean to co-sign a credit card but KB aren't as strict and will treat foreigners as human beings.. 위국인이면 대구은행 진짜 나빠(rant). Works on any subway / bus system in the country. A bit different from paying by contactless or T-money as it adds up transport fares separately and deducts once a month (or if you hit a pre-set maximum). Instead of showing remaining balance when you get onto a bus / subway it shows current spending balance.


----------



## dimlys1994

How about this map?
http://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/


----------



## DaeguDuke

^^
Maybe I'm nitpicking but where/how did the person who made that work out the line depths? At a glance it is obvious that lines that share tracks are shown as different..


----------



## ukraroad

It is irrelevant but nice. Can't they stick the station names for better understanding?


----------



## whatsuplucas

ukraroad said:


> It is irrelevant but nice. Can't they stick the station names for better understanding?


It would become even more clustered with info. I don't think it would be beautiful.


----------



## exocet

Winter Paradox said:


> Android have had NFC for several years but they decided to go for Apple instead who just started their contact connection.


NFC is just the interface - the software on the device, the secure element in the hardware, and the back-end systems is what enables Apple Pay to work with any contactless terminal.

No Android solution in the past was complete enough to tick all four boxes.


----------



## dimlys1994

Whitechapel station redevelopment, District and Hammersmith & City platforms:
http://anonw.com/2015/07/27/whitechapel-station-27th-july-2015/


----------



## Antje

*District line* – Stepney Green

D78 Stock 17008 Interior at Stepney Green by Antje, on Flickr


----------



## Sameboat

Finally I added fare zones into my Tube map.
Keep in mind that the state of this map is temporary and
eventually I will hide the zonal system from the base map unless you click the "show fare zones" button
because I agree with Max Roberts that the fare zones boundaries are an information pollution to the already crowded map.
As you may have noticed I also added the locations where pink reader is available.
Something (if i remember correctly) has never been in the official map.
There is also quite some English description either shown directly or hidden in the mouse-hover tooltip.
If you spot any strange grammar or spelling please point them out for me.

Thank you

Edit 0820: Someone in Reddit informed me the future acquisition of the Greenford Branch Line by TfL in 2017 so another update.
Looks like something similar to Romford to Upminster Line which is another unwanted bonus for improving Crossrail operation.

Edit 0826: + step-free accessibility. Again this information is hidden by default due to its high pollution.

Link: Wikimedia Commons


----------



## dimlys1994

Exclusive photos from Victoria Line partial closure:


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 1 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 2 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 3 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 4 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 5 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 6 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 7 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 8 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 9 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Walthamstow Closure 10 by Transport for London, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...troduction-of-24-hour-trains.html?channel=525
> 
> *London Underground postpones introduction of 24-hour trains*
> Thursday, August 27, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _FOLLOWING a series of strikes London Underground has decided to postpone the introduction of 24-hour services for the first time at weekends on five lines to allow negotiations with trade unions to continue_
> 
> The Night Tube round-the-clock services were due to start on September 12 on Fridays and Saturdays on the Jubliee and Victoria lines, and key sections of the Central, Northern and Piccadilly lines. However, train drivers have been concerned at having to work unsocial hours
> 
> ...


----------



## Stravinsky

Was it just a bluff? They're not going to do that?


----------



## Swede

It wasn't a bluff, but they aren't going to do it (for now). There was real intent to do it, but trade unions didn't accept the terms offered for the workers who were going to work those shifts.


----------



## Stravinsky

Ahhh, they don't like working...


----------



## Winter Paradox

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal:


Wow the Unions got their way. I do not know what more to say. They played hard. I am not on the Mayors or the Unions side here.


----------



## Antje

*Victoria line* upgrade has completed a day early.

Source: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-informati...s/victoria-line-engineering-work?intcmp=27433


----------



## Antje

*Piccadilly line* – Leicester Square

Leicester Square (Piccadilly line) station by Antje, on Flickr

Station in 2013:

Leicester Square (Piccadilly line) Station by Antje, on Flickr


----------



## nidave

dimlys1994 said:


> Consultation on new Cadmen Town station redevelopment plans has been launched:
> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/news-articles/changes-to-camden-town-station-have-your-say
> https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/camden-town-station-upgrade?cid=camden-town-upgrade
> http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/10/12/tfl-shows-off-plans-for-camden-town-tube-station-upgrade/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proposed changes:
> 
> New second entrance and exit to the station
> More escalators
> Step-free access from the street to trains
> More space to change between trains
> 
> I really hope that these plans will move forward


http://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/second-time-lucky-rebuilding-camden-town-station/


----------



## sotonsi

Stravinsky said:


> a metro line would not have been economically nor technically convenient, and they're building a Crossrail line instead.


Ah, we have one of those people who just reads what they think is written, not what is written.

A metro line would have still been economically and technically convenient, but a mainline gauge line is now, for the first time, economically and technically convenient and so it might as well be built to that higher standard.


> Therefore, existing metro lines were not doing what a Crossrail line can.


Serving the outer suburbs? - see every tube line but the Hammersmith & City, Circle and Waterloo & City.

Removing suburban railway trains from termini? - see the H&C/Circle, District, Piccadilly, Central and Northern lines.

Going fast across the centre? - see the Victoria line as the prime example, but others are also quick (especially when compared with Paris).

Carrying lots of people? - see the Victoria line, which can carry about 41000 passengers/hour past a point in one direction. Crossrail can only carry 36000 passengers/hour without further upgrades (which will, sure, bring it above the Victoria line). The difference in carrying capacity between the automatic metro and regional crossrail options for Crossrail 2 were very small (44k/hour 1100ppl @ 40tph v 45k/hour 1500ppl @ 30tph) and the key reason why the regional approach was taken was easier take over of suburban railways and the ability to more reliably branch.

There's no real reason why Crossrail is mainline railway, rather than a new tube line, other than there being no real reason why it needs to be a new tube line.


----------



## sotonsi

nidave said:


> http://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/second-time-lucky-rebuilding-camden-town-station/


Is it really only the second attempt? I would have hoped we're on "third time's a charm" by now!

Hopefully it get's built - it's needed even without the split of the line.


----------



## Swede

nidave said:


> http://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/second-time-lucky-rebuilding-camden-town-station/


Great article on the Camden Town situation with some of the history explained. Put things into perspective for me, including why it wasn't done years ago and why the new try at getting it done is looking far, far more likely to succeed. 

With the Northern line being split (after first being extended to the south), with crossrail 1 and 2 on the way... Is there a map anywhere that is keeping track of these changes?


----------



## Nexis

*Incline Lift At Greenford Station*


----------



## dimlys1994

^^That's nice, I would hope see them on other stations. This Crossrail article said that other lifts will be installed at Hammersmith and Bank stations, but I have doubts that such lifts would be installed on these locations:
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/art...ll-first-incline-lifts-in-uk-public-transport


----------



## Swede

Those are quite common in the Stockholm subway system. Mostly at deep stations where elevators with vertical shafts would result in the elevators either surfacing so far away from the escalators that it'd need it's own ticket barrier or result in far to long a walk-tunnel to get from the trains to the elevator.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Your Local Guardian:



> http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...rease_in_trams_between_Wimbledon_and_Croydon/
> 
> *Open for business: New platform means increase in trams between Wimbledon and Croydon*
> 11:30, Tuesday 3 November 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trams will now be running between Wimbledon station and Croydon again as a new platform was unveiled yesterday by former transport minister and Wimbledon MP Stephen Hammond.
> 
> Passengers have had to walk to Dundonald Road tram stop to pick up services to and from Croydon while work was going on, but Wimbledon has now been re-opened
> 
> ...


And press image from TfL:


TfL image - New London Tram platform open in Wimbledon by Transport for London, on Flickr


----------



## 00Zy99

^^

And just think! This will soon be demolished to make way for Crossrail 2!


----------



## dimlys1994

Some more photos on new tram platform:
http://anonw.com/2015/11/03/the-tramlink-is-back-in-wimbledon-station/


----------



## Stravinsky

00Zy99 said:


> ^^
> 
> And just think! This will soon be demolished to make way for Crossrail 2!


This true? Why is that?


----------



## Sameboat

Stravinsky said:


> This true? Why is that?


Crossrail 2 plans: Tooting station axed and Wimbledon shopping centre demolition

The Wimbledon shopping centre is just next to the Tramlink platform.


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...mber/bank-station-work-starts-on-a-new-entran
> 
> *Bank station: work starts on a new entrance*
> 05 November 2015
> 
> _New Tube entrance will offer access to the Waterloo & City line from Walbrook Square when it opens in late 2017_
> 
> London Underground (LU) has begun work on a new entrance to Bank Tube station that will significantly reduce congestion through the station, one of the busiest on the network.
> 
> Just metres away from Walbrook Square, the new entrance to the Waterloo & City line will offer two new lifts, four new escalators and a new ticket hall when it opens in late 2017
> 
> ...


New entrance will be at the centre of new Bloomberg's European HQ. This is how site looks in October:



gorzowlkp said:


> October pictures
> Source: www.london-skyscrapers.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More: Bloomberg Place under construction - October 2015


And this is how new entrace will look like - photos official from TfL:


TfL Image - Bank station: new Waterloo & City line entrance 1 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Bank station: new Waterloo & City line entrance 2 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Bank station: new Waterloo & City line entrance 3 by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Bank station: new Waterloo & City line entrance 4 by Transport for London, on Flickr


----------



## Stravinsky

^^ Bland and boring. Where's the Night Tube gone, btw?


----------



## po8crg

Stravinsky said:


> Where's the Night Tube gone, btw?


Disappeared - the management wanted the drivers to do night shifts without any increase in pay, and the drivers told them where to get off. So they're back at the negotiating table trying to agree on a shift system.


----------



## nidave

po8crg said:


> Disappeared - the management wanted the drivers to do night shifts without any increase in pay, and the drivers told them where to get off. So they're back at the negotiating table trying to agree on a shift system.


Just a slight correction to that... the divers were generally in favour - it was the station staff who were not happy and called the strike.


----------



## Sameboat

Just a quick mock-up of my Tube map for the newly included zone 2/3 stations.
I know it looks remotely pretty. Blame TfL or Boris.


----------



## sotonsi

Bromley-by-Bow, Pudding Mill Lane and East India will become Zone 2 stations.

The key reason why they were 2/3 was to allow cheaper tickets to the stations just further out that were major centres (Zone 3 ticket, rather than zone 2 and 3). With those major centres now in zone 2/3, it is still a one-zone ticket.


----------



## Sameboat

sotonsi said:


> Bromley-by-Bow, Pudding Mill Lane and East India will become Zone 2 stations.
> 
> The key reason why they were 2/3 was to allow cheaper tickets to the stations just further out that were major centres (Zone 3 ticket, rather than zone 2 and 3). With those major centres now in zone 2/3, it is still a one-zone ticket.


But StationMaster claims that Bromley-by-Bow, Pudding Mill Lane and East India will retain in zone 2/3...


----------



## sotonsi

Sameboat said:


> But StationMaster claims that Bromley-by-Bow, Pudding Mill Lane and East India will retain in zone 2/3...


That was the original idea, but, as London Reconnections says that politicians changed it.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Londonist, video about Croxley Rail Branch, that will soon become part of Metropolitan Line:


----------



## dimlys1994

Prepatory works on Arthur Street, which will be worksite for Bank station upgrade:
http://anonw.com/2015/11/20/from-monument-to-westminster-along-the-east-west-cycle-superhighway/
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bcsu-factsheet3-arthur-street-worksite.pdf


----------



## Suburbanist

When London first introduced the zonal fare system?


----------



## whatsuplucas

Suburbanist said:


> When London first introduced the zonal fare system?


1981.


----------



## Wilhem275

A funny idea by an architectural firm: replacing the Underground with continuous moving walkways, even with several lanes with different speed 




























Proposed advantages:
- no waiting time
- full use of the tunnels lenght (today mostly used as headway between trains)
- great reduction of crowding

I won't list the practical cons because I have a life to be lived  but the concept is less dumb than it appears.


http://www.wired.com/2015/09/real-plan-replace-londons-tube-moving-walkways/
http://weburbanist.com/2015/09/08/tube-travelators-replacing-london-trains-with-moving-walkways/


----------



## Swede

How is it less dumb? I'd say it is probably more dumb.


----------



## matago

Great idea! Those moving walkways would have a marginal time/speed incentive over the District Line.

Epping, Uxbridge and Hornchurch will look like olympic bodybuilders' towns.


----------



## CharlieP

Ridiculous. How would such a treadmill go round a bend?


----------



## dimlys1994

Video from TfL on Victoria tube station upgrade:


----------



## Vaud

Wilhem275 said:


> A funny idea by an architectural firm: replacing the Underground with continuous moving walkways, even with several lanes with different speed


Hm I remembered reading about this before and then I realised that this is copied from Isaac Asimov's book "caves of steel", where he devises those travelators that move at different speeds to move inside the huge remaining cities on earth. I even remember a scene where a policeman is chased and has to jump from one speed to the other avoiding bumping into other people and describing how good he was at that "sport" when he was a kid. Sorry for the off-topic


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...tropolitan-line-extension-funding-agreed.html
> 
> *Metropolitan Line Extension funding agreed*
> 23 Nov 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The funding package for the Metropolitan Line Extension project has been finalised, London Underground announced on November 23. Construction is now expected to start next year, with completion due in 2020.
> 
> Previously known as the Croxley Rail Link, the project has until now been managed by Hertfordshire County Council. On March 27 LU announced that it was to take over responsibility once a funding package was agreed. The £284·4m cost includes a local contribution of £125·4m, £109·8m from the Department for Transport and £49·2m from Transport for London. The local funding includes £87·9m from the Hertfordshire Local Enterprise Partnership, which represents 40% of its total Growth Deal funding from the government
> 
> ...


----------



## Wilhem275

Vaud said:


> Hm I remembered reading about this before and then I realised that this is copied from Isaac Asimov's book "caves of steel", where he devises those travelators that move at different speeds to move inside the huge remaining cities on earth. I even remember a scene where a policeman is chased and has to jump from one speed to the other avoiding bumping into other people and describing how good he was at that "sport" when he was a kid. Sorry for the off-topic


Indeed interesting!
If Asimov envisioned it, then in a far future it will be reality. With Asimov it's a matter of "when", not "if" 

When I evaluate means of transport I always calculate the actual travel time, something that is often forgotten, and this usually gives some surprises.
In terms of actual travel time and capacity these travelators are an interesting idea.
Of course, with today's technology, putting them in practice would be an awful nightmare...


----------



## 00Zy99

Wilhem275 said:


> Indeed interesting!
> If Asimov envisioned it, then in a far future it will be reality. With Asimov it's a matter of "when", not "if"


Aside from the fact that every computer used to read this thread is absurdly more powerful and cheaper than the computers he envisioned. That combined with the internet that this site is on renders many of his plots null and void.



> When I evaluate means of transport I always calculate the actual travel time, something that is often forgotten, and this usually gives some surprises.
> In terms of actual travel time and capacity these travelators are an interesting idea.
> Of course, with today's technology, putting them in practice would be an awful nightmare...


There's also the matter of transfers.


----------



## dimlys1994

Are you ready for this? It's coming soon! Another nice video from Londonist:


----------



## dimlys1994

Another good news, from Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/northern-line-extension-breaks-ground.html
> 
> *Northern Line extension breaks ground*
> 25 Nov 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Mayor of London Boris Johnson officially launched construction of an extension of London Underground’s Northern Line on November 23. The 3·3 km extension from Kennington to Nine Elms and Battersea is due to be completed in 2020.
> 
> Boring of twin tunnels is due to begin in early 2017 and is expected to take six months to complete. An expected 680 000 tonnes of material would be excavated. A 300 m long conveyor belt will carry 92% of this to the River Thames, from where barges will carry it to Goshems Farm in East Tilbury to the east of London
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From BBC:



> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-34918849
> 
> *Part-time Night Tube drivers proposed for service*
> 25th November 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Part-time staff and a salary increase have been offered by London Underground (LU) as a solution to running the new Night Tube service_
> 
> A 24-hour operation on five lines had been due to start at weekends on 12 September but it was delayed in a row over staff pay and conditions.
> 
> LU has now said a previous three-year pay offer will be extended to a fourth year and it would hire part-time staff
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From London SE1:



> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/8510
> 
> *Waterloo Tube Station’s York Road entrance to shut for 3 years*
> Friday 30 October 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The York Road entrance to Waterloo Underground Station will next month close for nearly three years as part of the Shell Centre redevelopment_
> 
> The ticket hall on the ground floor of the Shell Centre will be closed from Sunday 15 November.
> 
> A new entrance to the tube station is due to open in summer 2018 as part of the new Southbank Place development on the Shell Centre site
> 
> ...


----------



## DingeZ

Wilhem275 said:


> A funny idea by an architectural firm: replacing the Underground with continuous moving walkways, even with several lanes with different speed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proposed advantages:
> - no waiting time
> - full use of the tunnels lenght (today mostly used as headway between trains)
> - great reduction of crowding
> 
> I won't list the practical cons because I have a life to be lived  but the concept is less dumb than it appears.
> 
> 
> http://www.wired.com/2015/09/real-plan-replace-londons-tube-moving-walkways/
> http://weburbanist.com/2015/09/08/tube-travelators-replacing-london-trains-with-moving-walkways/


I think in reality the biggest issue is safety, how would you make stepping between these travelators safe?
I also think it doesn't really have a higher capacity than a standard tube train. Take the Central line (the Victoria and Metropolitan lines actually have a higher capacity), the trains can carry 892 people according to the specifications and there are 34tph at peak. Assume the average train carries 795 people, this works out to be 450 per minute or 7,5 per second! As the average speed at stations is 6mph for three travelators (since the stations are the restricting factor), or 2.7m/s, this means that every travelator should at least carry one person every 1.07m to meet the capacity of the tube. Also, the tunnels for these need to be bigger than the current tube tunnels, since they need to be high enough for people to stand on all lanes. I don't think the capacity would be necessarily bigger.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

This is just fantasy.

In real world automated walkways can't be several kilometers long, with curves and different slopes.
Then the maintenance should be very expensive, more than metro maintenance, as escalators and automated pathways are expensive to maintain in relation at their lenght.
And this is a dozen kms system...

Maintenance itself could be impossible too without stopping all the 'line', exactly as maintainers stop a whole escalator to work on it

Last, but not least, the maximum speed would be very slow as the fastest pathways in the world got a 15 km/h speed. 
Tube trains reach a top speed of 80 km/h and got a commercial speed of about 35 km/h


----------



## Mr Cladding

*Northern Line Extension*

London forum thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=648864&page=29

Official website: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/northern-line-extension/

Project facts


London boroughs: Lambeth and Wandsworth

New stations: Nine Elms and Battersea Power Station 

Length: 3.2km

Cost: £1bn 

Year of Completion: 2020










Construction at Battersea Power Station (the terminus of the Northern Line extension)


----------



## nidave

Is there anything official about splitting the northern line? I know its very dependant on Camden station being redeveloped.


----------



## nr23Derek

GENIUS LOCI said:


> This is just fantasy.
> 
> In real world automated walkways can't be several kilometers long, with curves and different slopes.
> Then the maintenance should be very expensive, more than metro maintenance, as escalators and automated pathways are expensive to maintain in relation at their lenght.
> And this is a dozen kms system...
> 
> Maintenance itself could be impossible too without stopping all the 'line', exactly as maintainers stop a whole escalator to work on it
> 
> Last, but not least, the maximum speed would be very slow as the fastest pathways in the world got a 15 km/h speed.
> Tube trains reach a top speed of 80 km/h and got a commercial speed of about 35 km/h


Actually there is another problem. Imagine this at peak times, packed with happy commuters and a fault develops making the thing stop. That would create a very real crowd-crush.

Nice idea, but really walkways - powered or not - should be at first floor level and made out of concrete. 

Derek


----------



## dimlys1994

Second Tottenham Court Road station entrance opens today, Central line trains will stop here again from Monday:
http://anonw.com/2015/12/02/tottenham-court-road-station-gains-a-giant-fosterico/
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...e-to-tottenham-court-road-opens-a3127591.html


----------



## Svartmetall

Hm, though I wasn't really a fan of the original station, at least it had character.


----------



## Stratford

Speaking about tube station design:

*London Underground Station Design Idiom:
*










Full Doc: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/station-design-idiom-2.pdf


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Mr Cladding said:


> *Northern Line Extension*
> 
> London forum thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=648864&page=29
> 
> Official website: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/northern-line-extension/
> 
> Project facts
> 
> 
> London boroughs: Lambeth and Wandsworth
> 
> New stations: Nine Elms and Battersea Power Station
> 
> Length: 3.2km
> 
> Cost: *£1bn*
> 
> Year of Completion: 2020


What? 1 bn pounds for an extension of just 3 km with 2 stations?


----------



## Antje

Wheels have been set in motion for the updated UrbanRail map, which will correct the Overground service pattern on the line to Chingford and the NLE is marked as under construction.

Preview:


----------



## sotonsi

Antje said:


> Wheels have been set in motion for the updated UrbanRail map ... the NLE is marked as under construction.


And the also recently started Croxley link?


----------



## Antje

sotonsi said:


> And the also recently started Croxley link?Getting a 403 error with that link.


Hi,

I've moved the image to Imgur: @sotonsi, please update the link to Imgur. I should have not posted directly from my home server because of the htaccess rules against hotlinking, which cannot tell from a innocent "a href" text link to an actual "img src" hotlinker. Sorry.


----------



## dimlys1994

From London SE1:



> http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/8569
> 
> *Bakerloo line extension: TfL favours Lewisham via Old Kent Road*
> Thursday 10 December 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Transport for London's commissioner has revealed that the Bakerloo line could be extended from Elephant & Castle to Lewisham via Old Kent Road by 2030_
> 
> News that TfL has put a tube extension to Camberwell and Peckham on the back burner will come as a blow to Southwark Council which had given cross-party support for a Bakerloo line route with two branches – one following the Old Kent Road and another via Walworth Road
> 
> ...


----------



## tokyo-hypa

dimlys1994 said:


> From London SE1:


according to the article, if they're gonna postpone any extension beyond Lewisham then wtf is the point of the entire thing at all...theres so many ways to get to Lewisham already, smh


----------



## iampuking

tokyo-hypa said:


> according to the article, if they're gonna postpone any extension beyond Lewisham then wtf is the point of the entire thing at all...theres so many ways to get to Lewisham already, smh


The intention of this extension isn't solely to serve Lewisham, it's to alleviate congestion on the SE London NR network (Lewisham junction is a massive bottleneck) and to provide better public transport to vast swathes of London that are poorly served for Zone 2 (Camberwell, Old Kent Road). Anyone that has ever been stuck on a bus for up to an hour along Walworth and Peckham roads will know this.


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...tation-gets-the-green-light-for-work-to-begin
> 
> *MAJOR UPGRADE OF BANK TUBE STATION GETS THE GREEN LIGHT FOR WORK TO BEGIN*
> 18 December 2015
> 
> The Mayor and Transport for London (TfL) have announced that work to dramatically transform and improve Bank Tube station will begin in the new year after the plans were given the go-ahead by Government.
> 
> The £563m upgrade will increase the busy station's capacity by 40 per cent, improving accessibility and reducing interchange times when it is completed in 2021. Now approved, the station becomes the latest in a series of major upgrades taking place across the Capital
> 
> ...


----------



## Nexis

Some recent London videos from Timosha21


----------



## theferret0

dimlys1994 said:


> Official from TfL:



From the article:

"This vital interchange - at the heart of the City of London - will be modernised to include:


*A new railway tunnel and platform for the Northern line that will reduce interchange times and create more space for passengers*
Step-free access to the Northern line and DLR platforms
More direct routes, with two new moving walkways
Three new lifts and 12 new escalators
A new station entrance in Cannon Street"

Right now, this is a necessity to expand capacity at a heavily overcrowded station in the rush hour. But with Crossrail 2 currently looking to dump more passengers on the withering Northern line, could this be looked at as provision for a new express metro line in the future? Something which follows key points of the existing Northern line, like London Bridge, Elephant & Castle, Kennington/Stockwell & Balham?

The City and the Northern line need help, as none of Thameslink and Crossrails 1&2 adequately help either.


----------



## luacstjh98

I believe there are plans out there - you may want to google "Bank station capacity upgrade".

Basically, they're going to redirect the southbound Northern Line into the new platform, and convert the now vacant platform into a circulating area. This will remove the need for passengers to have to squeeze through the Northern line platforms when transferring from Monument to the Central line and vice versa.


----------



## dimlys1994

More on Whitechapel station redevelopment:
http://anonw.com/2015/12/22/whitechapel-station-22nd-december-2015/


----------



## fieldsofdreams

Stratford said:


> Speaking about tube station design:
> 
> *London Underground Station Design Idiom:
> *
> 
> Link to image
> 
> Full Doc: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/station-design-idiom-2.pdf


This is essentially my first time ever here on this thread, but, looking at that image that will serve as a guide for how future construction on London Underground stations will be made, I am delighted at how much consideration and thought was made in planning that design overhaul, something I believe should be done in other countries like the United States. Given the amount of people using the underground, finding ways to make the circulation around stations easier and better is something engineers, planners, and architects can be challenging, yet in the long run, the riders will greatly benefit from it. And by the way, which station is being depicted on that image?


----------



## dimlys1994

fieldsofdreams said:


> This is essentially my first time ever here on this thread, but, looking at that image that will serve as a guide for how future construction on London Underground stations will be made, I am delighted at how much consideration and thought was made in planning that design overhaul, something I believe should be done in other countries like the United States. Given the amount of people using the underground, finding ways to make the circulation around stations easier and better is something engineers, planners, and architects can be challenging, yet in the long run, the riders will greatly benefit from it. And by the way, which station is being depicted on that image?


The station, which is in this document, is not existed. Idiom Park station is just CGI example of how station must look like


----------



## fieldsofdreams

^^ Right. But I thought that can depict any station on any line... Perhaps I want to see such results on the busiest stations like Piccadilly, Victoria, or Kings Cross, for example. Given that those changes may be subtle, those will actually help commuters and tourists make themselves more comfortable using those stations. :yes:


----------



## theferret0

Found this oddity whilst waiting at Hammersmith the other day...











Also, can anyone tell me why several stations on the central line eastbound/westbound platform line diagrams (e.g. at Newbury Park) still show the failed attempts to change the name of Shepherd's Bush to Shepherd's Bush Green, and why the diagrams were changed before any name alteration was approved in the first place?


----------



## 00Zy99

theferret0 said:


> Found this oddity whilst waiting at Hammersmith the other day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, can anyone tell me why several stations on the central line eastbound/westbound platform line diagrams (e.g. at Newbury Park) still show the failed attempts to change the name of Shepherd's Bush to Shepherd's Bush Green, and why the diagrams were changed before any name alteration was approved in the first place?


The picture is too small. I can't see what it is supposed to be showing.


----------



## Phoenyxar

Educated guess: the Piccadilly line does not pass High Street Kensington (but South Kensington)


----------



## dimlys1994

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin visited Victoria tube station to see redevelopment progress:


Victoria tube station by Department for Transport (DfT), on Flickr


Victoria tube station by Department for Transport (DfT), on Flickr


Victoria tube station by Department for Transport (DfT), on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

More on Battersea extension:



stevekeiretsu said:


> the site today
> 
> 
> Future Nine Elms tube station by stevekeiretsu, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

A tourist note for those who changing at Green Park station - from Londonist:


----------



## Vaud

^^ Tourists? Only stressed Londoners would need tips to save 14 and 17 seconds of their lives...


----------



## NCT

Vaud said:


> ^^ Tourists? Only stressed Londoners would need tips to save 14 and 17 seconds of their lives...


Tourists need to be educated so they don't get in the way of stressed Londoners trying to save 14 and 17 seconds of their lives


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-for-london-invitations-to-tender-issued.html
> 
> *New Tube for London invitations to tender issued*
> 18 Jan 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Transport for London invited Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi and Siemens to tender for a contract to supply 250 new trainsets for the London Underground on January 18.
> 
> The procurement forms part of the New Tube for London programme to modernise rolling stock, infrastructure and signalling on the small-profile Piccadilly, Waterloo & City, Bakerloo and Central lines.
> 
> Expressions of interest were invited in February 2014, when invitations to tender had been expected to be issued in early 2015. The five pre-qualified bidders have been asked to submit their proposals this summer, with the contract expected to be awarded in autumn 2017 and the trains to enter service from ‘the early 2020s’. The cost of the order is expected to be between £1bn and £2·5bn
> 
> ...


----------



## Stravinsky

NCT said:


> Tourists need to be educated so they don't get in the way of stressed Londoners trying to save 14 and 17 seconds of their lives


Live fast, die young...


----------



## dimlys1994

Whitechapel station temporary ticket hall at Durward St was opened on Monday. The main station ticket hall closed for reconstruction:
https://twitter.com/stnmasterapp


----------



## Christopher125

Some concerning news for heritage operations in the latest Finance & Policy Committee papers regarding the resignalling of the H&C/Circle/Metropolitan/District.



> 4.26 LU is reviewing the possibility of de-scoping the ATC conversion of its heritage vehicles from the ATC contract.


----------



## PortoNuts

Very good to see the Northern Line extension going on. Nine Elms will be is a hot spot these days and that would only be complete with good transportation links.


----------



## theferret0

Caledonian Road station will be staying open: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...-for-lift-replacement-work-axed-a3159636.html

If that statistic of a lift failure once a week is to be believed, then surely repairing one at a time is going to be a nightmare...

Either way, let's see how quickly those lifts take replacing. An 8-month full station closure should translate into at least a 12-month open station repair job.


----------



## dimlys1994

From diamond geezer, more shots of Whitechapel station temporary entrance at Durward Street:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dgeezer/
http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/whitechapel.html


Whitechapel - temporary entrance by diamond geezer, on Flickr


Whitechapel - temporary entrance by diamond geezer, on Flickr


Whitechapel - new stairs to the Overground by diamond geezer, on Flickr


Whitechapel - temporary exit to Durward Street by diamond geezer, on Flickr


Whitechapel platform 6 by diamond geezer, on Flickr


----------



## ex-E14

Since I have these old pics of the DLR I thought I'd post them. They were from the very first day it opened to the public in August 1987.

Waiting at Crossharbour for a train to Island Gardens:





And the original elevated platforms at Island Gardens (when that was the end of the line):



There was a good turnout from the locals wanting to ride the new train. It made a big difference to life on the Island.


----------



## 00Zy99

Look at how tiny the trains and the stations are! Can you imagine them running such short trains today? On any line?


----------



## Suburbanist

Did they redevelop the south of that peninsula/Isle of Dogs _before_ Canary Wharf was built out :dunno: ?


----------



## ex-E14

^ The DLR opened before the first set of towers went up at Canary Wharf, but large parts of the southern half of the Isle of Dogs still look very similar today. There are quite a few new flats along the waterfront at the southern end, but inland not so much has changed.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

ex-E14 said:


> And the original elevated platforms at Island Gardens (when that was the end of the line):


I have a couple of questions about this station

The station was demolished (quite a shame as the building was pretty interesting IMO) while part of the viaduct is still standing

_Airview of the old station_










_situation nowadays_ >>> https://www.google.it/maps/@51.4840401,-0.0103758,489a,20y,41.62t/data=!3m1!1e3

Was that viaduct built for DLR or was it a previously existing viaduct (to connect a former dock, for istance)?
It doesn't look to me as it was built in the '80s, it looks older


Other question.

Why, extending DLR South of Thames, did they build Cutty Sark station with short platforms? Even if as short as old Island Gardens ones











Didn't they think that possibly in the future (in few years I might say) DLR convoys could need a couple of cars in addiction?
And why didn't they extend the station platforms in the years which followed? Just because of a predictable high expenditure or is there another reason?


Thank you in advance for answering


----------



## Wilhem275

A shame indeed! I like that design a lot.


----------



## ex-E14

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I have a couple of questions about this station [the original elevated one at Island Gardens]
> 
> The station was demolished (quite a shame as the building was pretty interesting IMO) while part of the viaduct is still standing
> 
> Was that viaduct built for DLR or was it a previously existing viaduct (to connect a former dock, for istance)?
> It doesn't look to me as it was built in the '80s, it looks older


The viaduct is much older and dates back to the 1870's. Here's a link with some good information: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/n/north_greenwich/



> Other question.
> 
> Why, extending DLR South of Thames, did they build Cutty Sark station with short platforms? Even if as short as old Island Gardens ones
> 
> Didn't they think that possibly in the future (in few years I might say) DLR convoys could need a couple of cars in addiction?
> And why didn't they extend the station platforms in the years which followed? Just because of a predictable high expenditure or is there another reason?


Not sure about this one. But the next station is only about 400m away, so perhaps they felt they didn't need to expand the one at Cutty Sark?


----------



## dimlys1994

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Other question.
> 
> Why, extending DLR South of Thames, did they build Cutty Sark station with short platforms? Even if as short as old Island Gardens ones
> 
> Didn't they think that possibly in the future (in few years I might say) DLR convoys could need a couple of cars in addiction?
> And why didn't they extend the station platforms in the years which followed? Just because of a predictable high expenditure or is there another reason?
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance for answering


Cutty Sark station will not be extended in near future because of cost (about £30m) and risk of damage to the heritage site at street level. Nobody would ever thought that DLR will be so succesful actually. 

Note that Elverson Road, Royal Albert and Gallions Reach stations are also have Selective door operation for 3-car trains, but these are on the ground.


----------



## sotonsi

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Was that viaduct built for DLR or was it a previously existing viaduct (to connect a former dock, for istance)?
> It doesn't look to me as it was built in the '80s, it looks older


The viaduct that's still there is older. However, the station and the bridge just to the north of it were DLR vintage.


> Why, extending DLR South of Thames, did they build Cutty Sark station with short platforms?


They weren't short then (actually they are shorter than a 2-car train, but that didn't cause a need for SDO), and were as long as they could build without causing issues with the heritage site. Also the DLR to Lewisham was designed to be as cheap as possible and the step change in cost for even full-length 2-car platforms there was too high (see also Canada Water's Overground platforms).


Wilhem275 said:


> A shame indeed! I like that design a lot.


Even 7 year old me, on my first DLR ride, noted the interesting shape of the platforms fairly quickly. The platforms splaying out was a nice quirk that will hopefully be recreated somewhere (Lewisham Bakerloo with a platform under each set of mainline platforms?)


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Talking of short platforms I didn't mean that they weren't standard platforms for original 'size' of DLR

I was just wondering why extending the line, after few years of exercise, they did not forecast an increase of DLR use which would have brought to put longer trains in line. What happened just few years after extension was realized.

Thanks to your answers now I know that partly that choice is due to the peculiarity of the construction site of the station


----------



## Winter Paradox

The Londonist, you have done it again;






Oyster Oddities and why and how you get charged extra and avoid the extra charge.

Has anyone ever experience something like this?

For is TFL Rail from Stratford to Romford costing £2.40 off peak (zone 3 - 6) and District Line/c2c from West Ham to Upminster costing £1.50 off peak (zone 3 - 6). Both single journey's. Yet travelcard is still over £120 a month between zone 3 - 6.


----------



## 00Zy99

I'll just drop this on here to tease y'all:

http://developments.dlr.co.uk/uploa...f_DLR/Where_we_go_Next/DLRextVicEustonStP.pdf


----------



## Stuu

00Zy99 said:


> I'll just drop this on here to tease y'all:
> 
> http://developments.dlr.co.uk/uploa...f_DLR/Where_we_go_Next/DLRextVicEustonStP.pdf


That was the future once, it isn't any more


----------



## 00Zy99

Stuu said:


> That was the future once, it isn't any more


And it could be again. Never say never !

(never say never again :007


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ks-to-make-finsbury-park-tube-station-step-fr
> 
> *WORKS TO MAKE FINSBURY PARK TUBE STATION STEP-FREE*
> 30 January 2016
> 
> Transport for London (TfL) has announced that major work to make Finsbury Park Underground station step-free will begin on Monday 1 February following successful preparatory work over Christmas.
> 
> As part of a series of improvements to Finsbury Park Tube station, two new lift shafts will be built to provide step-free access in 2019 from street level to the trains at one of London's busiest Tube stations outside of zone one
> 
> ...


----------



## cristof

it has changed a lot along the DlR Line. I dont get why DLR is still not opened 24/7 as it is fully automated shouldnt be a problem to maintain it ...


----------



## luacstjh98

DLR trains may be fully automated, but they are still staffed, as a GoA 3 system where a member of staff controls the doors, but leaves all driving to the train's onboard systems.


----------



## dimlys1994

More on Northern Line extension:



Mr Cladding said:


> Northern Line Extension at BPS
> 
> NLE Extension 1 by Luke, on Flickr
> 
> NLE extension 2 by Luke, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

Proposed pedestrian square in front of Highbury & Islington station, where Post Office was (demolished last year):
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/highbury-corner-roundabout


----------



## Stravinsky

^^ Those in the consultation picture have to be the worst newly-designed bike lanes in London.


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ube-station-re-opens-early-with-brand-new-lif
> 
> *TUFNELL PARK TUBE STATION RE-OPENS EARLY WITH BRAND NEW LIFTS*
> 04 March 2016
> 
> _TfL today, Friday 4 March, announced that Tufnell Park station has re-opened to customers after work to replace the station's two lifts and improve the ticket hall was completed two weeks early_
> 
> The new lifts will take customers from the ticket hall to the Northern line more quickly and reliably than the old lifts, which used to fail once a week on average
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

Plans for Knightsbridge tube station redevelopment:
http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/201...to-be-reopened-at-knightsbridge-tube-station/


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/03/11/northern-line-tbms-complete/
> 
> *Northern line TBMs complete*
> 11 MAR, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The two 650-tonne tunnel boring machines (TBM) which will be used to construct London Underground’s Northern line extension have been completed.
> 
> The TBMs will now undergo testing before being dismantled later this year and shipped from NFM Technologies’ factory in France to London
> 
> ...


----------



## IanCleverly

It's not too long, but here's a video (not by me) of a part ride along on the Northern Line.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...luton-airport-peoplemover-plan-announced.html
> 
> *Luton Airport peoplemover plan announced*
> 15 Apr 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Plans for a £200m fully-automated ‘guided light rail peoplemover’ linking Luton Airport with Luton Airport Parkway station were announced by airport owner London Luton Airport Ltd on April 15. This would support a £110m project to increase the airport’s capacity by 50% to 18 million passengers/year by 2020.
> 
> LLAL has appointed Arup to undertake the design and procurement of the peoplemover. It expects to submit a planning application ‘in the early autumn’, and construction could begin in 2017 for opening by the end of 2020
> 
> ...


----------



## Vaud

^^ about time!!! those news are welcome. I really dislike London Luton and one of the main reasons (if not the main reason) is the need to change from train to bus, which adds a seizable amount of time compared to Gatwick, Stansted or Heathrow


----------



## Svartmetall

YES! Finally. This'll be good for anyone using that airport. Used to have awful transport links.


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## Kane_84

*Finchley Road, Jubilee and Metropolitan lines*


----------



## shard97

_Baker Street Appreciation Post_

DSC_0068v2 300dpi by Ryan Trower, on Flickr


----------



## Brenda goats

just up from baker street, see the met crossing regents canal


----------



## Suburbanist

I think TfL operates too many buses. Considering both the narrow streets of most of London and high labor costs, why not a plan to replace many busy buys routes with high-capacity trams?

I also think London should consider monorails in some 2 or 3 routes on the south side.


----------



## 00Zy99

Suburbanist said:


> I think TfL operates too many buses. Considering both the narrow streets of most of London and high labor costs, why not a plan to replace many busy buys routes with high-capacity trams?
> 
> I also think London should consider monorails in some 2 or 3 routes on the south side.


Could you please specify which routes should be trams or monorails? Perhaps create a map of what you mean?

I assume that you mean that these routes should be operating in segregated RoW/pedestrianized streets? Because you are not going to make things better otherwise.

There have been proposals, but most focus on the outer areas, given the density of the Underground in the center. They tend to involve taking over lightly used rail branches.

There are underground extensions and improved commuter rail systems proposed for the south side of the Thames. Monorails would have too much visual impact, and wouldn't have connectivity to anything else.


----------



## sotonsi

Brenda goats said:


> just up from baker street, see the met crossing regents canal


When I was little, my mum always tried to get me to see the canal. It's rather hard from the trains to see it, though it is an odd gap between two tunnels (both pretty much made by covering the tracks with buildings - at least near the canal). It's easier to see from a Chiltern given the slower speed over the bridge on the approach into Marylebone.

More interesting would have been the old stations on that bit of the met, that I only started spotting them when I was an adult.



Suburbanist said:


> I think TfL operates too many buses. Considering both the narrow streets of most of London and high labor costs, why not a plan to replace many busy buys routes with high-capacity trams?


As the controversial bendy-bus experience shows, London's narrow streets prefer 11m-long double-deckers than 18m-long bendybuses, before we even talk of 23m-long (Tramlink), or even 30m-long (what Cross-River Tram ended up being proposed as as 23m-long vehicles weren't enough of an increase in capacity to be worth it) trams. The 1st gen trams in London were shorter than the current buses so none of that "they've had trams before".

Paris was cited as an example to follow - despite a similar climate, where in London a bus would be taken, people walk (OK, good for health), or drive (less good). Their modal share for rail is about the same, but buses much lower, cars a bit higher and walking much higher.


----------



## MrAronymous

These would nicely supplement the New Routemasters


----------



## 00Zy99

Where on EARTH did you get those? Are there any more?

Because I have to say that that looks pretty damn awesome. If only it were in Red.


----------



## dimlys1994

^^Alstom once proposed this:
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2007/9/Stockholm-tramway-design-study-the-winners-20070912/


----------



## Wilhem275

Awesome.

About the trams vs. bendy buses, I'd add that while lenght might be a problem at intersections, it isn't in terms of manoeuvrability. In this, trams are much better fitting in tight roads than buses.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/...london-mayor-to-extend-capitals-tram-network/
> 
> *Campaign group calls on new London mayor to extend capital’s tram network*
> 9 MAY, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Light rail campaign group TramForward has called on London’s new mayor to explore opportunities for more tram schemes in the capital.
> 
> In particular, the advocacy group is encouraging Sadiq Khan, who was announced as the winner of London’s mayoral election on May 6, to revive proposals for a light rail system linking Camden with Peckham and Brixton, via King’s Cross
> 
> ...


----------



## MarkLong

Is there any update about northern line extension and metropolitian line extension?


----------



## sotonsi

MarkLong said:


> Is there any update about northern line extension and metropolitian line extension?


Here's you providing an update on the Met line extension from the Croxley link thread a few minutes before posting here.


MarkLong said:


> Here is the latest update:
> http://content.tfl.gov.uk/may16-new-ascot-road-work.pdf
> http://content.tfl.gov.uk/may16-croxley-cable-work.pdf


----------



## MarkLong

Yes but I mean pictures


----------



## PortoNuts

> *After long dispute, London underground to run all night at weekends*
> 
> *Trains will run all night at the weekend from August 19 on two lines of the London Underground metro network in what new Mayor Sadiq Khan said on Monday would be a boost to the British capital's night-time economy.*
> 
> Plans to introduce all-night services on the Tube, as Londoners call the Underground, were one of the main causes of a long-running dispute between management and the RMT rail workers' union that involved several strikes.
> 
> "The Night Tube is absolutely vital to my plans to support and grow London's night-time economy, creating more jobs and opportunities for all Londoners," Khan, who was elected mayor earlier this month, said in a statement.
> 
> The RMT said there were still unresolved issues concerning the Tube's engineers and it urged management to move quickly to reach a settlement with that group of workers that did not leave them disadvantaged on conditions and pensions.
> 
> "All parties have to be clear that Night Tube, a development that RMT supports, cannot be delivered on the cheap," the RMT's General Secretary Mick Cash said in a statement.
> 
> The 24-hour weekend services will start on the Central and Victoria lines, with the Piccadilly, Jubilee and Northern lines to follow in the autumn.
> 
> The statement from Khan's office said hundreds of thousands of late-night revellers and shift workers would benefit, with journeys cut by an average of 20 minutes and some by more than an hour.
> 
> The statement said this would support around 2,000 permanent jobs and boost London's economy by 360 million pounds.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-london-tube-idUKKCN0YE1F1


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...apacity-for-croydon-tramlink.html?channel=526
> 
> *More trams and extra capacity for Croydon Tramlink*
> Monday, May 30, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE 2016-17 Transport for London (TfL) budget presented to the London Assembly includes funding for improvements to the Croydon Tramlink network including capacity enhancements and additional LRVs_
> 
> The budget includes funds for the completion of design work on a second tram platform at Elmers End station and track-doubling on the line towards Croydon. TfL is also planning to increase the service frequency on the New Addington to Croydon line from eight to 10 trams an hour by 2020
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ndon-systems-integrator-contract-renewed.html
> 
> *New Tube for London systems integrator contract renewed*
> 01 Jun 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Transport for London has reappointed WSP Parsons Brinckerhoff as prime system integrator support partner on for the New Tube for London programme under a contract worth £1·9m.
> 
> WSP Parsons Brinckerhoff has been working with London Underground for 2½ years on systems integration services for the programme to modernise rolling stock, infrastructure and signalling on the Piccadilly, Waterloo & City, Bakerloo and Central lines
> 
> ...


----------



## ramakrishna1984

On completion, London Underground will be able to operate more trains at a greater speed, providing a 33% rise in capacity by the early 2020s.


----------



## Suburbanist

*TfL typeface revamped*

Transport for London commissioned an upgrade to its signaling and way-finding font.

Link to display of all characters

169691159


----------



## Blackhavvk

Extension to Battersea and Croxley Rail Link is the only project in the London Underground?What is the length of the construction sections and what is the length of the planned closure of a section to Watford?

sry google traslate


----------



## dimlys1994

Blackhavvk said:


> Extension to Battersea and Croxley Rail Link is the only project in the London Underground?What is the length of the construction sections and what is the length of the planned closure of a section to Watford?
> 
> sry google traslate


Battersea extension is 3km and Croxley Rail Link is 5,47 km. Planned Watford section, which will be closed, is appr. 1,3 km


----------



## PortoNuts

*Northern Line Extension*










Installed gantry crane to lower the TBMs


Installing the Northern Line Extension gantry crane at Nine Elms by David Curran, on Flickr


Northern Line extension gantry in Nine Elms by David Curran, on Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Why haven't they built an interchange station giving access to Vauxhall?


----------



## Phoenyxar

Well, if I'm correct, the line doesn't pass Vauxhall but instead even passes next to Oval before really branching off. It's a diagram thing.

What I'm interested in is why they didn't chose to extend it towards Clapham Junction?


----------



## dimlys1994

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Why haven't they built an interchange station giving access to Vauxhall?


They're fearing over overcrowding of Northern and Victoria lines


----------



## DaeguDuke

It's been suggested that could be remedied by Crossrail 2 - build the station but don't open interchange until Crossrail 2 is there to take the strain off the other lines. Seems sensible to me, why build a public transport system aiming for lower ridership? :crazy:


----------



## 00Zy99

There are also structural concerns about the mainline approaches to Waterloo passing overhead. A station at Vauxhall would mean having to push a tunnel under a 19th century viaduct three times instead of one.


----------



## tokyo-hypa

any reason for not building to Clapham Junction?, surely they'd wanna relieve the rush hour crowds there


----------



## mrsmartman

Suburbanist said:


> Transport for London commissioned an upgrade to its signaling and way-finding font.
> 
> Link to display of all characters
> 
> 169691159


*T£L* is such a stylish organisation - the model for English speaking world. :cheers1:


----------



## 00Zy99

tokyo-hypa said:


> any reason for not building to Clapham Junction?, surely they'd wanna relieve the rush hour crowds there


The first stop on the line after Kennington is Waterloo, which is also one of the destinations from Clapham Junction. As a result it wouldn't really alleviate the crowding, just redistribute it and ultimately make it worse.


----------



## sotonsi

tokyo-hypa said:


> any reason for not building to Clapham Junction?, surely they'd wanna relieve the rush hour crowds there


Battersea is funded by a developer and while TfL could afford to put some money up and modify the scheme to provide a station at Nine Elms, they couldn't afford to put up a lot more money to double the length of the scheme due to already committed programmes of Crossrail building and Tube Modernisation.

But - more importantly - it wasn't considered because, until CR2 comes, there's no way a tube line would be able to meet the demand at Clapham Junction without massive crowding.

And, making it more of an issue, the developers understandably (given they are paying for the extension to happen) want to provide their residents with as good a tube service as possible. Trying to board crush-loaded trains would undermine that!


----------



## subbotazh

*Cross River Tram: Green AM asks Sadiq to review project*



The Cross River Tram was intended to link Camden Town and Euston in the north with Brixton and Peckham in the south, via Waterloo Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

Transport for London drew up plans for the light rail link under the mayoralty of Ken Livingstone, but the project was dropped by Boris Johnson soon after he took office in 2008.

Now the new Labour mayor Sadiq Khan has been pressed to review the case for reviving the tram proposal.

Green Party London Assembly member Caroline Russell has tabled this question to the mayor:

"Camberwell is very poorly served by rail and public transport access levels will remain low in parts of Southwark until 2031.

"The Cross River Tram would provide a public transport crossing in a part of central London where no new crossings are planned.

"Will you therefore review the business case for this project?"

Mr Khan's answer is due to be published by City Hall next week.

After the CRT was abandoned by TfL, an alternative proposal for a privately-funded tram between London Bridge and Denmark Hill – known as the Southwark Supertram – was drawn up.

As recently as December 2015 Trampower – the company behind the Supertram proposal – was claiming that it would soon be applying for planning permission to build the line.

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/8791


----------



## dimlys1994

Whitechapel station redevelopment continues, with new roof is beginning to take shape:
https://anonw.com/2016/07/04/the-frame-of-the-new-roof-at-whitechapel-station-takes-shape/























































And view from Crossrail's webcams:
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construction/webcam-gallery


----------



## subbotazh

*Cross River Tram: Sadiq Khan declines to revive scheme*

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has said he does not intend to revive the Cross River Tram project cancelled by his predecessor Boris Johnson.

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/8812


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from TfL:



> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...gust/charing-cross-ticket-halls-to-be-renovat
> 
> *Charing Cross ticket halls to be renovated*
> 30 August 2016
> 
> Transport for London (TfL) has announced that work to modernise the Northern line ticket hall at Charing Cross Station will begin on Monday 26 September.
> 
> The 1970s ticket hall, which is the larger of two at Charing Cross, will be brought up to a modern standard. It will undergo a number of changes including new tiling and finishes, a new straightened gate line with more space at the top of the escalators and improvements to CCTV and lighting.‎
> 
> The modernisation work means that the Northern line ticket hall will be closed until July 2017
> 
> ...


----------



## Augusto

And afaik London's underground is closed on 25th december. Which sounds incredible to me..


----------



## Fatfield

Augusto said:


> And afaik London's underground is closed on 25th december. Which sounds incredible to me..


There's no need for it, or any other public transport in the UK, to be running on Christmas Day. No-one travels any distance on that day as 99% of people stay at home or stay at relations. And if they're staying at relations they do their travelling 1-2 days before and after Christmas Day.

Anyone who needs to travel uses private transport. You will get some taxis working though.


----------



## DaeguDuke

Fatfield said:


> There's no need for it, or any other public transport in the UK, to be running on Christmas Day. No-one travels any distance on that day as 99% of people stay at home or stay at relations.


So just going to say that this is complete nonsense. Buses usually run a heavily reduced service, but people like to get out and see their families on Christmas day. Go out to have lunch with granny, see a relative at the hospital, it is 2016 and most of the population are not strict Christians - just run a Sunday service.


----------



## Fatfield

DaeguDuke said:


> So just going to say that this is complete nonsense. Buses usually run a heavily reduced service, but people like to get out and see their families on Christmas day. Go out to have lunch with granny, see a relative at the hospital, it is 2016 and most of the population are not strict Christians - just run a Sunday service.


You really have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## DaeguDuke

Where I live the buses run on Christmas Day. Not everyone can/wants to spend Xmas eve - Boxing Day with family, and not everyone is a strict Christian. I'm 95% sure the Zoo is open Christmas Day, folk need to get to places that are open to work.

Welcome to 2016 fatfield


----------



## Augusto

Very impressive. I live in Paris and the 25th of december is considered as a regular public holiday, and the métro is just as full as any sunday.


----------



## Fatfield

DaeguDuke said:


> Where I live the buses run on Christmas Day. Not everyone can/wants to spend Xmas eve - Boxing Day with family, and not everyone is a strict Christian. I'm 95% sure the Zoo is open Christmas Day, folk need to get to places that are open to work.
> 
> Welcome to 2016 fatfield


And where is it that you live?

With the exception of motorway service stations, pubs, corner shops and some restaurants, nowhere is open on Christmas day in the UK. Its the same on Easter Sunday to certain extent. Being a christian has nothing to do with it either. Its traditional in the UK for families to get together over the festive period. It is also illegal for some shops to be open on Christmas day & Easter Sunday.

If people want to travel then they can use their own transport or get a taxi (if they're lucky).

If you can't handle these facts, move on.


----------



## DaeguDuke

Fatfield said:


> And where is it that you live?


Edinburgh.



> With the exception of motorway service stations, pubs, corner shops and some restaurants, nowhere is open on Christmas day in the UK.


Nowhere apart from motorway service stations, petrol stations, pubs, corner shops, some restaurants, the zoo, hotels, b&bs, taxis, buses, the airport, security staff.. The police and fire brigade remain open, as do city services such as snow trucks. All of these people need to get to work and back, which is why the bus service runs..

That is quite a list. Surprising that 'nowhere' can encompass so many places. I must get onto Oxford to update the definition.



> Its traditional in the UK for families to get together over the festive period.


It is. But most people don't have the space for all their relatives to be housed in the same place over Christmas. My family usually drive to see the grandkids, cousins etc, in Edinburgh I usually just get the bus as it saves driving out in the snow.



> It is also illegal for some shops to be open on Christmas day & Easter Sunday.


In England and Wales. Thankfully Scotland doesn't have the same restrictive Sunday Opening laws.



> If people want to travel then they can use their own transport or get a taxi (if they're lucky).


We'll just ignore the fact that nearly half (40%) of Edinburgh households do not have access to a car or van.

Ok, here's the zoo opening times 


> We are open every day of the year including Christmas Day


. ~Hotels are open, most b&bs, and actually a lot of pubs and restaurants, went to have lunch in the Grassmarket a few years back - we'd booked but there were a few places open mainly catering to tourists and locals. If you're desperate Wetherspoons are always open: 


> The majority of our pubs will be open for drinks only on Christmas day


. There was even a tour guide doing the rounds. And the buses run a heavily reduced service, but almost all of the city is served with an hourly / half hourly bus.




> If you can't handle these facts, move on.


I don't see any facts, just you voicing your (incorrect) opinion. If the whole of England shuts down on Christmas, then that sucks, seems stupid to me that London doesn't run buses when Edinburgh does (and they're well used).


----------



## Fatfield

As you said, Scotland has different laws. This thread is about London though. My opinions are correct and factual in this context. If you have a problem with that, tough.


----------



## DaeguDuke

Fatfield said:


> There's no need for it, or any other public transport in the UK, to be running on Christmas Day.


No, fatfield, you specifically said "or any other public transport in the UK"


----------



## Fatfield

DaeguDuke said:


> No, fatfield, you specifically said "or any other public transport in the UK"


Then you should've picked up on that earlier. Now stop clutching at straws and move on.


----------



## DaeguDuke

DaeguDuke said:


> So just going to say that this is complete nonsense.


I did pick up on that, which is why I responded earlier whilst quoting you..


----------



## Wilhem275

Jesus, find a room, guys :lol:


----------



## Fatfield

DaeguDuke said:


> I did pick up on that, which is why I responded earlier whilst quoting you..


Not in the context of this thread. Like I said, stop clutching at straws and move on.


----------



## DaeguDuke

Fatfield said:


> There's no need for it, or any other public transport in the UK, to be running on Christmas Day.


Wrong. Edinburgh buses run albeit a reduced service.



Fatfield said:


> nowhere is open on Christmas day in the UK


Incorrect.



Fatfield said:


> Then you should've picked up on that earlier


I did.



Fatfield said:


> Not in the context of this thread. Like I said, stop clutching at straws and move on.


Unless in within the context of this thread "UK" means "London" stop being a child and just admit you were wrong. You stated that the DLR, and no other transport in the UK, should run on Christmas Day. I pointed out that at least in Edinburgh public transport does, as people want to get out to see their family, or need to get to work.

Tbh, considering the work/housing along the DLR and the lack of onward connections it may make no sense for the DLR to run in isolation, but that wasn't what you said.

Anyway, I've pointed out that your post is BS, and I'm done.


----------



## Fatfield

DaeguDuke said:


> Wrong. Edinburgh buses run albeit a reduced service.
> 
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> 
> I did.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless in within the context of this thread "UK" means "London" stop being a child and just admit you were wrong. You stated that the DLR, and no other transport in the UK, should run on Christmas Day. I pointed out that at least in Edinburgh public transport does, as people want to get out to see their family, or need to get to work.
> 
> Tbh, considering the work/housing along the DLR and the lack of onward connections it may make no sense for the DLR to run in isolation, but that wasn't what you said.
> 
> Anyway, I've pointed out that your post is BS, and I'm done.


My job is done here. :lol:


----------



## DaeguDuke

Another insightful and meaningful contribution, thanks for playing fatfield


----------



## flierfy

DaeguDuke said:


> Unless in within the context of this thread "UK" means "London" stop being a child and just admit you were wrong. You stated that the DLR, and no other transport in the UK, should run on Christmas Day. I pointed out that at least in Edinburgh public transport does, as *people want to get out to see their family*, or need to get to work.


I don't know whether you just don't know what Christmas is or you are simply too anti-social to have a family. Whatever it is, you are wrong in either case.
There where Christmas Day is the pinnacle of the festive season, and that includes England and London, people don't travel, not on that day. We travel the days right before Christmas and we travel again on Boxing Day. But on Christmas Day we are at home and we stay home. We wake up in the midst of our family and spend the whole day with them. This is the quietest day of the year.
And this also means that there is simply no sufficient demand for PT services on that one day of the year.


----------



## DaeguDuke

flierfy said:


> I don't know whether you just don't know what Christmas is or you are simply too anti-social to have a family. Whatever it is, you are wrong in either case.


I am part of the 25 million Brits who are not Christian, therefore whilst I enjoy the holiday season and see my family there is no religious requirement for me to refuse to travel or do work. I've got a large family, and my parents live in a council house. Even with their taxed "spare" bedroom there isn't room for 6 kids plus partners, along with grandkids. My family get together on Christmas - as Fatty pointed out many will drive to see family - but as there is public transport provision in the city I live in (where 40% of families do not have access to a car, most of my family included) I usually just get a bus. I'm not sure that this is a difficult concept - either we exclude some family, or we travel to see everyone. Maybe you're an only child with no partner or kids?

I'm not sure what this obsession is that you either travel on Christmas eve, or you are antisocial, as nice as it would be for my parents to live in a 10 bedroom mansion they don't. Furthermore it isn't unusual for some members of the family to be working / on call on Christmas eve / day, even if I were religious I wouldn't expect hospitals to close down, patients to just be abandoned or kicked out. Staying with the family on Christmas eve or boxing day would make it difficult to get into work at the A&E if the worst does happen. "Sorry, the on-call surgeon won't be here for an hour because it is Christmas"



> There where Christmas Day is the pinnacle of the festive season, and that includes England and London, people don't travel, not on that day.


A vast generalization, more apt for a Dickensian novel. Do people who celebrate Christmas in the UK not go to church on Christmas Day? How would you get to church if you're part of the 40% who do not own a car? "Sorry Christ, no bus so no church, I'll say 3 Hail Marys next time I'm in"

40% of the UK aren't Christian who are still likely to attend Christmas Day Mass, but as pointed out before there are loads of work places that are open - hotels, b&bs, bars, restaurants, the zoo, police, fire, hospitals, airports, vehicle recovery, power stations, railway maintenance..

IF NOBODY TRAVELS THEN ALL THESE PLACES ARE CLOSED? DO THE POLICE NOT ANSWER THE PHONE ON CHRISTMAS DAY? Of course not.



> We travel the days right before Christmas and we travel again on Boxing Day. But on Christmas Day we are at home and we stay home. We wake up in the midst of our family and spend the whole day with them. This is the quietest day of the year.


It certainly is the quietest, but people still work, people still travel. You make it sound as if all the motorways and roads are empty. They aren't.



> And this also means that there is simply no sufficient demand for PT services on that one day of the year.


In that case you should write to Lothian buses and tell them to withdraw their Christmas day bus services, as apparently you know their demand better than the operator. This Christmas I'll give the other passengers on the buses your details so that you can tell them individually that they should be at home not going to work at hospitals and power stations or seeing their family.

To say that nobody travels is a lie, just to say that nobody works, or that everyone spends 3 days living with their family. It is a broad generalization. Many may do that, which is why it is the quietest time of year, but there is obviously enough demand for Edinburgh buses to run their reduced timetable.. Coming from a friend who worked at the Zoo, they usually had a bunch of families and tourists go in on Christmas Day - it is quiet, but they still get enough visitors. If it makes economic sense for the zoo to be open, and Edinburgh buses to run, then obviously people are using these services.


EDIT: TUC estimates nearly 1m workers on Christmas Day, almost 1 in 30 workers. Those figures will be significantly higher for Christmas Eve and Boxing Day. So to say that nobody travels is BS. Obviously those 1m do. Obviously people travel to see their family.

In your world does nobody work on a Sunday too?


----------



## LTA1992

cairnstony2 said:


> Then you need to enlighten whomever designed the above chart! I don't think they know...


Most people get that wrong actually. Only those who know extensive information on this city's transit history will truly know that sort of information.


----------



## cairnstony2

LTA1992 said:


> Most people get that wrong actually. Only those who know extensive information on this city's transit history will truly know that sort of information.


Well I guess that takes me back to my original point that the initial comparison is somewhat meaningless. Whether they are lines, services or whatever... still, you'd think that whomever put that comparative chart together would have done their homework a wee bit better.


----------



## Wilhem275

And, anyway, what's the point...


----------



## cairnstony2

Wilhem275 said:


> And, anyway, what's the point...


Probably to create an unnecessary pissing contest between cities. One only has to look at the 'who has the biggest metro?' debates to see how silly the whole thing can become.


----------



## tokyo-hypa

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...fter-printing-with-tiny-mistake-a3607971.html

Morden was delegated to the Croydon tram network zone


----------



## tokyo-hypa

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...-the-most-popular-names-for-new-a3606741.html

Interesting new names for Bakerloo extension stations.


----------



## sotonsi

For the willy waving fans, here's a New Yorker's perspective about how great London's transport is compared to New York's:

http://www.businessinsider.com/london-underground-better-than-nyc-subway-2017-8

Full of subjective stuff and luck - the guy clearly didn't travel to places on branches and/or was very lucky in timing as he never had to wait more than 4 minutes for a train.


----------



## Glom

It is pretty good these days. Trains are pretty clean and fresh, even the clapped out Bakerloo line ones. Service reliability isn't too bad. Even the unions at least don't get violent unlike some in America.


----------



## [atomic]

The DLR just turned 30 :cheer:







and here is a informative Video that I hope hasn't been posted before:


----------



## nidave

This is rather interesting 


Tracking smartphone Wi-Fi signals reveals curious journeys on the London Underground









https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/20...s-curious-journeys-on-the-london-underground/


----------



## LTA1992

cairnstony2 said:


> Probably to create an unnecessary pissing contest between cities. One only has to look at the 'who has the biggest metro?' debates to see how silly the whole thing can become.


No. If someone does not know something, then they must be educated. Not continue to spout misinformation.

It does matter. As I said before, in NYC, lines are physical parts. Services are flexible and change through the day for various reasons. Now if they were all self contained, then yeah, they would be the same. But they aren't.

Just because you don't care doesn't mean someone else wont.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

*Bidders day for £100m Beckton DLR depot upgrade*

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2017/10/11/bidders-day-for-100m-beckton-dlr-depot-upgrade/



> *Transport for London is planning a bidders day at the end of the month for the £100m extension of its Docklands Light Railway Beckton Depot.*
> 
> Maintenance and stabling facilities are being extended to handle a new fleet of DLR trains.
> 
> TFL expects to invite tenders next year and will outline the scope and programme of the £50m-£100m to interested bidders.


----------



## redstarcastles

Newbury Park - Central Line

Roundel at Newbury Park 1 September 2017


Platform at Newbury Park 1 September 2017


91295 Newbury Park 1 September 2017


91011 Newbury Park 1 September 2017


Outside roof at Newbury Park 1 September 2017


----------



## Blackhavvk

WOW Heart of Russia train. Very cool!!!


----------



## dimlys1994

From Metro Report

http://www.metro-report.com/news/ne...hern-line-extension-tunnelling-completed.html

*Northern Line extension tunnelling completed*
08 Nov 2017










UK: Tunnelling on the London Underground’s Northern Line extension was completed on November 8, when tunnel boring machine Amy broke through at Kennington.

Amy began tunnelling in May, following sister machine Helen the previous month. Helen broke through into a shaft at Kennington Park at the end of October. Both TBMs had been supplied by NFM Technologies from its Le Creusot factory in France

...


----------



## dimlys1994

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...pens-as-bond-street-station-upgrade-is-comple

*New entrance opens as Bond Street station upgrade is complete*
17 November 2017


TfL Image - Bond Street - new cross passage by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Bond Street - Jubilee line escalators by Transport for London, on Flickr


TfL Image - Bond Street - new ticket gate by Transport for London, on Flickr

_Entrance on north side of Oxford Street provides step-free access for the first time at this key West End location_

TfL has today unveiled the completed £300 million upgrade of Bond Street Tube station, a key West End location and one of the busiest stations in central London

...


----------



## sergiogiorgini

^^ Shame it wasn't done in the new design idiom. But a very welcome upgrade.


----------



## Swede

A walkthrough of the new Bond street station:


----------



## Mac_07

Amazing ride from Mudchute to Westferry


----------



## dimlys1994

geogregor said:


> ^^
> Are there any real changes since Crossrail opening is not going ahead?


Minor changes - the external interchanges (not direct ones) are redrawn from straight line into dotted line. Like this:


----------



## cairnstony2

Strangely, they've left an error on that map from the previous in that it is quicker to walk between Heron Quays DLR station and Canary Wharf tube station than the tube station's DLR namesake.


----------



## Swede

cairnstony2 said:


> Strangely, they've left an error on that map from the previous in that it is quicker to walk between Heron Quays DLR station and Canary Wharf tube station than the tube station's DLR namesake.


Is it a mistake tho? maybe it's intentional for station capacity reasons or something?


----------



## Stuu

cairnstony2 said:


> Strangely, they've left an error on that map from the previous in that it is quicker to walk between Heron Quays DLR station and Canary Wharf tube station than the tube station's DLR namesake.


I believe it is because the DLR service to Stratford service starts from Canary Wharf, so sending people there covers the interchange options better than sending people to Heron Quays


----------



## Wilhem275

^^ That, and also because it would be confusing to see a hub not including its namesake DLR station.

People are used to the idea that if different stations share the same name then they are "under the same roof".

If, as in this case, another station makes a better interchange... then the issue is with the infrastructure design, not the map 


Another matter I see from Stuu's observation: how do I understand which DLR service is which, from the map?
I think it would be about time for TfL to introduce separate colors and numbering for DLR and Overground services.
As they do in Berlin for S-Bahn services, I mean.

Both DLR and Overground are fully integrated in the intra-urban network, there's no reason to simplify them as some sort of lesser service.


----------



## cairnstony2

Stuu said:


> I believe it is because the DLR service to Stratford service starts from Canary Wharf, so sending people there covers the interchange options better than sending people to Heron Quays


Ah yes, makes sense.


----------



## cairnstony2

Wilhem275 said:


> People are used to the idea that if different stations share the same name then they are "under the same roof".


Most of the time for sure, but then you have Bank/Monument say, and the increased integration of Kings Cross/St Pancras/Euston.

It is curious in a way that the integration wasn't better between the two Canary Wharf's from day 1, though...


----------



## cairnstony2

Wilhem275 said:


> Another matter I see from Stuu's observation: how do I understand which DLR service is which, from the map?
> I think it would be about time for TfL to introduce separate colors and numbering for DLR and Overground services.
> As they do in Berlin for S-Bahn services, I mean.
> 
> Both DLR and Overground are fully integrated in the intra-urban network, there's no reason to simplify them as some sort of lesser service.


Sorry I should have multi-quoted you. Nay bother.

Been saying this about the LO and DLR for years. If I was new to London I'd find them both confusing as hell, though no less confusing than say, the District Line.


----------



## Wilhem275

Numbering the District... we can really open Pandora's vase here 

Sometimes I read this is not done because users prefer this tradition to be kept.
I'd like to see a real inquiry about this issue, also showing users how alternatives _could_ look like.
People often stick to traditions just because they never saw different possibilities.




cairnstony2 said:


> Most of the time for sure, but then you have Bank/Monument say, and the increased integration of Kings Cross/St Pancras/Euston.


True. A compromise could be to show both DLR stations as part of the hub, but yet again we stumble into services not being represented... Back into the loop.

(Weren't they drawn together in the past? Maybe I'm confusing them with some other hub)


----------



## cairnstony2

Wilhem275 said:


> Numbering the District... we can really open Pandora's vase here
> 
> Sometimes I read this is not done because users prefer this tradition to be kept.
> I'd like to see a real inquiry about this issue, also showing users how alternatives _could_ look like.
> People often stick to traditions just because they never saw different possibilities.


Yeah I'm really not interested in 'tradition' being used as an excuse to preserve the status quo, unless that tradition doesn't counter the application of a little common sense.

I was born and raised in London near Clapham North tube station and always found the Northern Line's complex service patterns mildly ridiculous. That at least will eventually be solved when running of the line is split, but I see no reason similar solutions shouldn't be explored elsewhere. After all, I don't recall mass howls of protest when the Hammersmith and City Line was split off from the Met. It was a simple solution to clarifying service patterns (a bit).


----------



## Stuu

Wilhem275 said:


> how do I understand which DLR service is which, from the map?
> I think it would be about time for TfL to introduce separate colors and numbering for DLR and Overground services.
> As they do in Berlin for S-Bahn services, I mean.
> 
> Both DLR and Overground are fully integrated in the intra-urban network, there's no reason to simplify them as some sort of lesser service.


This comes up often and there isn't a simple answer.... The DLR in-car maps do show the different services, so TfL are completely aware that passengers need to know that sort of information

I agree it's not user friendly, something like numbers at the end of each service as in New York could be added without needing any further lines on the map. I suppose because as with the other lines, such as the District, the exact service patterns aren't shown, they don't feel it necessary to show them for the DLR or Overground


----------



## Skalka

Stuu said:


> This comes up often and there isn't a simple answer.... The DLR in-car maps do show the different services, so TfL are completely aware that passengers need to know that sort of information
> 
> I agree it's not user friendly, something like numbers at the end of each service as in New York could be added without needing any further lines on the map. I suppose because as with the other lines, such as the District, the exact service patterns aren't shown, they don't feel it necessary to show them for the DLR or Overground


I guess this very thread saw someone illustrate the way the tube map would look like if the Vignelli approach were done. It's very messy and not to recommend. And I guess that's why DLR and Overground aren't too detailed. More details perplex more than they help in this case.


----------



## Wilhem275

Honestly I don't see how that kind of extra detail can be more confusing than the current situation.

You'd just see a few more coloured lines in place of a single monochrome one, with no radical changes to the general layout.
People have no problem reading and understanding the several colours applied to LU services, and it would work just the same, no extra interpretation needed.

Worst thing which can happen: in some places you get 2-3 lines running in parallel for a few stations (just as with LU between Baker Street and Aldgate), occupying pretty much the same space to be drawn.


----------



## Stuu

Wilhem275 said:


> Honestly I don't see how that kind of extra detail can be more confusing than the current situation.


There are arguments either way I guess. I'm not sure that the current situation is all that confusing though... say you wanted to go somewhere on the DLR, then you would look at the map and work out the best route to get to the DLR. Once you get to the interchange then the service pattern is shown very clearly on the platform maps and displays. There are probably a few routes where it might be better to change to the DLR somewhere else, but I can't think of any.

I think the District Line is worse though, as it's not obvious from the map that no trains from Richmond go to Edgware Road. Ultimately though the map has to be a balance between clarity and detail, and that's entirely subjective


----------



## cairnstony2

Stuu said:


> There are arguments either way I guess. I'm not sure that the current situation is all that confusing though... say you wanted to go somewhere on the DLR, then you would look at the map and work out the best route to get to the DLR. Once you get to the interchange then the service pattern is shown very clearly on the platform maps and displays. There are probably a few routes where it might be better to change to the DLR somewhere else, but I can't think of any.


I was back in London two years ago and used the DLR quite a bit. Maybe i'm blind, but I just didn't notice those maps (though I know they exist); also I noticed and overheard several tourists who were clearly very confused at the Canning Town interchange.


Stuu said:


> I think the District Line is worse though, as it's not obvious from the map that no trains from Richmond go to Edgware Road. Ultimately though the map has to be a balance between clarity and detail, and that's entirely subjective


Split off the Wimbleware line, or whatever you want to call it, with a new colour; problem solved. If the Piccadilly takes over running to Ealing Broadway as planned that may make that line easier to understand too. 

The Olympia stub is still an oddity though. Watched Geoff Marshall's video on it the other day and was surprised to discover that some trains that pull into Earls Court from Olympia change destination and continue on, sometimes all the way to Upminster.


----------



## luacstjh98

If you split off the Wimbleware line, some spare train paths on Wimbleware could be used to run a HSK - Earls Court - Olympia shuttle.


----------



## Wilhem275

Stuu said:


> There are arguments either way I guess. I'm not sure that the current situation is all that confusing though... say you wanted to go somewhere on the DLR, then you would look at the map and work out the best route to get to the DLR. Once you get to the interchange then the service pattern is shown very clearly on the platform maps and displays. There are probably a few routes where it might be better to change to the DLR somewhere else, but I can't think of any.



Let's say I'm in Whitechapel and I need to reach the Beckton branch. From the map I don't have the slightest hint if I have to prefer changing at Tower Hill, Shadwell, Bow Church or West Ham. From the simplified map it seems they could all lead there (or not).


In general, I think people prefer to plan the whole trip from the start, the "get there and find out" approach doesn't seem to fit here.


Sorry if I always end up there, but I suggest again looking at Berlin's map: U- and S-Bahn services are all marked as separate lines even if they're different systems.
What is simplified there are Regional trains, which are low frequency compared to the proper urban networks but still give useful city connections.
There is a detailed map representing only those Regio services, drawn on a larger scale because they're not focused on the city alone.


While in London I really missed that kind of detailed map of local mainline trains, which are very important especially in southern London.
(that, of course, may not be integrated in the LU map)


----------



## Stuu

Wilhem275 said:


> Let's say I'm in Whitechapel and I need to reach the Beckton branch. From the map I don't have the slightest hint if I have to prefer changing at Tower Hill, Shadwell, Bow Church or West Ham. From the simplified map it seems they could all lead there (or not).


I don't agree with that, it's fairly clear from the map that trains from Bow Church don't turn east at Poplar. Any of the other alternatives _will_ give you a direct train to Beckton.

This is the map you find on DLR stations - It would be useful if this was more widely available










However, as I said before, if you start adding in the individual services on the DLR, logically you have to add in the individual services on all the other lines, and then it gets very messy. The Metropolitan line has 8 (I think, unless it's changed again) different services for example - where do you sensibly stop adding information?

I totally agree about the south London suburban services, they should be mapped far more clearly


----------



## Wilhem275

Stuu said:


> However, as I said before, if you start adding in the individual services on the DLR, logically you have to add in the individual services on all the other lines, and then it gets very messy. The Metropolitan line has 8 (I think, unless it's changed again) different services for example - where do you sensibly stop adding information?



The original problem here is having several services on the same line, which is kind of a substandard solution for a metro service.
Ok, there are historical reasons for LU's surface lines to be operated more as railways than metros, and it's hard to streamline services today.


But, I think, this should not be an excuse for not streamlining other stuff.
The District services, as we said, can be streamlined, the Northern will be split.


On the map, IMHO the Piccadilly's two branches should get different colors, same for the Central, and for the Met maybe draw differently those services terminating in Baker Street.




But, again, I don't think the status quo of LU should be an excuse to apply substandard solutions to "new" systems.
To keep it simple: adding colours for DLR, LO and in future also the Elizabeth services doesn't take any resource off the rest of the design.
You can add them to the map with almost no other changes.


----------



## geogregor

Intresting article about some of the behavioral tests on the underground:

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2019/01/30/timing-of-door-closing-how-critical-is-it/



> Much has been written and said in recent times about efforts to improve the throughput of trains on metro and inner suburban railways. Using CBTC has enabled 36 trains per hour (tph) to be achieved in each direction on London Underground’s Victoria Line. A dramatic improvement to passenger comfort has resulted and much of the severe overcrowding has been eliminated. Similar predictions are made for other LU Lines and also the full Thameslink and Crossrail (Elizabeth line) services when they reach full fruition.





> The trial, which took place on the Victoria line, consisted of a number of investigations within the context of both a 1.8 sec and 3.0 sec chime duration, covering:
> 
> Door obstruction data, collected from the rolling stock;
> Platform observations;
> Reported safety incidents;
> Passenger survey;
> Service data (dwell times, lateness).















> The door open and close sequence was found to be well disciplined at peak hours, with regular travellers standing clear of the doors before getting on in order to allow passengers getting off to disembark more quickly. *During off peak periods, however, unfamiliar travellers tended to block the door egress, thus slowing the whole process.* A longer chime duration did allow more time to get out of the way of the doors, but equally gave more time to try and board.


Bloody tourists :troll: 

A lot of interesting stuff in the article.


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> You mean Tottenham Hale new entrance?
> 
> I actually like it. Clean and simple design, which often makes more sense than some architectural fireworks. Anyway, I'll wait with final opinion until I see the whole building finished, including the underground roundel and national rail sign.


I agree about simple designs often being better, especially after 20 years or whatever, but this is taking it a bit far. Hopefully it will be better in reality than in the renders. Saying that, anything at all is better than what was there previously


----------



## flierfy

ajw373 said:


> It’s a brand that has its origins in the time where a lot more was underground.


I doubt it. Since naming the network Underground it was extended mainly there, in the underground. So the portion of non-tunnel sections back then must have been greater than it is today.


----------



## Stuu

flierfy said:


> I doubt it. Since naming the network Underground it was extended mainly there, in the underground. So the portion of non-tunnel sections back then must have been greater than it is today.


No, that is correct. The system was developed privately for the first 70 years of it's existence, the Metropolitan and District railways were separate from the Underground Electric Railway (which became the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and Northern lines). Nearly all of the Underground lines were underground, unlike the Met and District. The name stuck from there, and was used for the whole lot when it weas combined in 1933, even though a majority of the Met and District was above ground. Expansions since then have mainly been overground in numbers of kms of track, with only the Jubilee line and Victoria line adding to the tunnels. Those are much shorter than the Central line out to Epping or West Ruislip, the Northern Line to Edgware and Barnet, or the Piccadilly line at both ends


----------



## flierfy

Stuu said:


> No, that is correct. The system was developed privately for the first 60 years of it's existence, the Metropolitan and District railways were separate from the Underground Electric Railway (which became the Bakerloo, Central, Piccadilly and Northern lines). Nearly all of the Underground lines were underground, unlike the Met and District. The name stuck from there, and was used for the whole lot when it weas combined in 1933, even though a majority of the Met and District was above ground. Expansions since then have mainly been overground in numbers of kms of track, with only the Jubilee line and Victoria line adding to the tunnels. Those are much shorter than the Central line out to Epping or West Ruislip, the Northern Line to Edgware and Barnet, or the Piccadilly line at both ends


You underestimate the length of tunnelling which were done after 1902. The Central Line is substantially underground from Bank on eastwards, likewise the Northern Line south of Clapham Common. The Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Victoria and Jubilee lines bar the Stanmore branch and vast parts of the Northern Lines were built after the introduction of the Underground brand. I stick to my claim, the Underground network today is more underground than when the Underground name was introduced.


----------



## Stuu

flierfy said:


> You underestimate the length of tunnelling which were done after 1902. The Central Line is substantially underground from Bank on eastwards, likewise the Northern Line south of Clapham Common. The Piccadilly, Bakerloo, Victoria and Jubilee lines bar the Stanmore branch and vast parts of the Northern Lines were built after the introduction of the Underground brand. I stick to my claim, the Underground network today is more underground than when the Underground name was introduced.


I was referring to when the whole system started being called the Underground, which was in 1933


----------



## flierfy

These are the network extensions since 1 January 1933 I could find with help of cartometro.com. If I missed some I will add them. I measured the trackage with JOSM. And this is the result so far: 56.9% in favour of tunnel sections.


----------



## DarJoLe

The “Underground” in “London Underground” comes from the Underground Electric Railways Company of London formed in 1902; the holding company for the three deep level underground railways, the majority of which, was underground.


----------



## geogregor

Very informative article about complex tunneling at Bank Station:






Intricate excavation upgrades London metro station







www.tunneltalk.com


----------



## Stuu

The article is very interesting, it really is a significant engineering feat, especially doing it all around the existing platforms and tunnels. This image of them tunneling between the two platforms shows just how confined the space is:


----------



## geogregor

Stratford was busiest station on TfL network last year, data reveals


Stratford beat commuter hubs King's Cross and Waterloo to become the busiest station on the Transport for London (TfL) network last year, according…




www.newhamrecorder.co.uk







> *Stratford beat commuter hubs King's Cross and Waterloo to become the busiest station on the Transport for London (TfL) network last year, according to new data.*
> 
> Sitting in Zone 2/3, Stratford is the first station outside Zone 1 to be named busiest in the capital; it has placed seventh since 2011, traditionally being beaten to the top spots by Waterloo, King's Cross and London Victoria.
> 
> However, lockdown restrictions last year put a stop to commuter traffic through these central London stations, with passenger numbers at King's Cross falling by over two thirds from almost 90 million in 2019 to just over 27 million in 2020, and dropping at Waterloo from 70 million in 2019 to just over 22 million last year.
> 
> But Stratford – which connects the Jubilee and Central lines with the DLR, London Overground, TfL rail and trains to the east of England – saw traffic only fall by 50 per cent from around 64 million in 2019 to over 28 million in 2020.
> 
> West Ham MP Lyn Brown said the results were a "reflection of the types of jobs that people in the constituency hold, which are not the sort of jobs that you can do sitting at home".
> 
> "People living in the areas around Stratford have had to keep accessing the transport system throughout the pandemic,” she added.
> 
> Stratford was the major transport terminal for the 2012 London Olympic games, prior to which it underwent a major regeneration programme - a Newham Council spokesperson said the results are “a clear example of the legacy value of transport and other pre-Olympic investment in the area”.
> 
> They added: “It is also evidence of Stratford’s increasing attractiveness as both a destination and an interchange. This will continue to grow as Elizabeth Line services commence in earnest in 2022.”
> 
> TfL said it cannot predict whether Stratford will hold on to the title of busiest station as lockdown restrictions are eased, and the return to central London offices mean increased traffic for other stops.
> 
> A spokesperson said: “It is not really possible to predict how people will move around London when we start coming out of lockdown and returning to some sense of normality.”
> 
> King's Cross, which was the busiest station from 2017 to 2019, came second in the rankings with just over 27.5 million passengers. The third, fourth and fifth places were taken by London Bridge, Oxford Circus and Waterloo respectively.
> 
> Footfall at TfL stations is recorded by tap counts of contactless, oyster card or tickets through the barriers.


And some fun stuff: 





Tube Zones | Mapping London







mappinglondon.co.uk







> Anyway – despite the lack of zone “areas” as such, the GLA published a dataset assigning each small statistical area in London to a zone, based on the nearest station – and Alasdair Rae has mapped this data onto a base Ordnance Survey dataset showing all building blocks in London, and coloured all the buildings in each zone with a distinct colour. Visually it is rather striking. It shows, if nothing else, that the fares are “fair” – there is no great consipracy, rather just that they are concentric rings, slightly squished because London is wider than it is tall, due to the effect of the ancient settlement running along the Thames and lines of hills to the north and south.


----------



## geogregor

Bakerloo Line at Queens Park. Those trains will be 50 years old next year...

DSC05810 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05811 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05812 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Here train towards central London, it will soon enter tunnel all the way to southern terminus at Elephant & Castle:

DSC05814 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

North Acton on Central Line. 

DSC05908 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05905 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05910 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05954 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05950 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Some shots of London trams from around Croydon:

DSC09750 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09751 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00533 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00535 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00536 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00539 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Crossing railway line via single track viaduct:

DSC00600 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00610 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00613 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00619 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00626 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00628 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00630 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00639 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00640 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Cygnus-X1

^^Fine pictures, thanks.


----------



## geogregor

I have more, from a few years ago:

DSC08949 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Feels like Eastern Europe  

DSC08955 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09033 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09055 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09056 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09059 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02407 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Beckenham Junction station, end of one of the branches:

DSC02636 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02637 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC03647 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03649 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03651 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03653 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03655 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03656 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03671 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03678 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Around Bikbeck Station Tramlink took over one of the formerly double-tracked railway line:

DSC00806 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00808 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00810 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00823 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00827 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00828 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00833 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00834 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00836 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00838 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03295 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Third rail and overhead side by side:

DSC03298 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03306 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03312 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02361 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04166 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> Bakerloo Line at Queens Park. Those trains will be 50 years old next year...
> 
> 
> DSC05812 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


With the oddity that trains from the north come through that shed along track 24, which was a bit of a surprise the first time I went that way


----------



## Cygnus-X1

geogregor said:


> I have more, from a few years ago:


Wow!


----------



## geogregor

£1bn London Tube full-fibre hook-up deal


2,000km of cables to be installed to give all stations and tunnels mobile coverage by the end of 2024




www.constructionenquirer.com






> Once fully delivered, more than 2,000km of cabling will be installed within tunnels and stations, all of which will be fitted outside of operational hours.
> 
> BAI is a leading global provider of 4G and 5G connected infrastructure, and has deployed communications networks in New York, Toronto and Hong Kong.
> 
> The neutral host network being delivered as part of this concession will be the most advanced network of its kind in the world and available for use by all mobile operators.
> 
> To help reduce future disruption, TfL has already begun installing the necessary cabling within a number of stations and tunnels to help reduce the need for additional closures.
> 
> This includes cabling already installed on the Jubilee and Victoria lines, as well as within the Northern Line Extension.
> 
> Work will now begin to prepare some of London’s busiest stations for mobile connectivity, including Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road, Bank, Euston and Camden Town, ahead of them being some of the first to be connected by the end of 2022.
> 
> Uninterrupted 4G mobile coverage will be expanded in phases to ticket halls, platforms and tunnels on the Tube network over the next three years, with all stations and tunnels due to have mobile coverage by the end of 2024.


----------



## geogregor

London Underground's Northern line extension starts trial operations - ianVisits


The Northern line extension between Kennington and Battersea has entered the final trial operations stage ahead of its opening later this year.Read more ›



www.ianvisits.co.uk


----------



## geogregor

Golden jubilee of Barkerloo line trains 









The 50th anniversary of London Underground's Bakerloo line trains - ianVisits


Sunday marks the 50th anniversary of the Bakerloo line trains on the London Underground. Introduced on 26th June 1972, they're also now the oldest electric multiple units (EMU) in use anywhere in the UK.Read more ›



www.ianvisits.co.uk





If things keep going as they are with the public transport financing in the UK they might one day reach diamond jubilee, maybe even platinum...


----------



## 437.001

*Northern Line*
Finchley Central

Open since 1867.
Located in the Church End area of Finchley, in the borough of Barnet.
Initially called _"Finchley and Hendon"_, it became _"Finchley"_ in 1872, then _"Finchley (Church End)"_ in 1892, then _"Finchley Central"_ since 1940.
Originally part of the railway line between Finsbury Park and Edgware, which also included the branch from Highgate to Alexandra Palace, and a second branch from Finchley Central to High Barnet.
Became part of the Northern Line in 1941, when the sections between Highbury and Mill Hill East, and also between Finchley Central and High Barnet, were integrated to the London Underground. 
The section between Mill Hill East and Edgware closed in 1939, as it hadn't been electrified, and the remaining part between Finchley Central and Mill Hill East was turned into a single.track stub, with trains operating as a shuttle, except for peak hours and after 23:00.
Between 1941 and 1962 there still were freight trains between Finchley Central and Finsbury Park.





Video by *ACC84 Metro y Trenes*


----------



## FabriFlorence

In my opinion the Northern Line should be split in two different lines. One from Highbury and Mill Hill East to Morden via Charing Cross, and a new line (that could be called Battersea line, just for example) from Edgware to Battersea Power Station (and may be in a future to Clapham Junction) via Bank.


----------



## 437.001

FabriFlorence said:


> In my opinion the Northern Line should be split in two different lines. One from Highbury and Mill Hill East to Morden via Charing Cross, and a new line (that could be called Battersea line, just for example) from Edgware to Battersea Power Station (and may be in a future to Clapham Junction) via Bank.


The other way around.
The Bank tunnel is not connected to Battersea.
The Charing Cross tunnel is connected to everything.

My main doubt about the split, is which northern branch (Edgware or High Barnet/Mill Hill East) should go to Bank-Morden, and which one should go to Charing Cross-Battersea.


----------



## cairnstony2

FabriFlorence said:


> In my opinion the Northern Line should be split in two different lines. One from Highbury and Mill Hill East to Morden via Charing Cross, and a new line (that could be called Battersea line, just for example) from Edgware to Battersea Power Station (and may be in a future to Clapham Junction) via Bank.


Splitting the Northern Line has long been mooted. The problem is Camden Town.

This station is seriously overcrowded and needs a rebuild. Formal plans that had been submitted to allow that to happen, were ugly, visually intrusive monstrosities, or just not appropriate, depending on your perspective. If a split to the Northern Line happened without a rebuild, the number of transfers at Camden Town would greatly increase making the station even worse. So that needs to happen first. Splitting would enable greatly improved frequencies on the line as well with simpler operation of both branches.


----------



## Skalka

Somewhere in this thread, there was a link to a politically greenlighted expansion plan for Camden Town that requires the demolition of an infant school (I first had to google what this is, like a fusion of pre-school and elementary school up to the age of 7) to create space for the construction site, the future second entrance and especially the generous passageway connecting that new entrance to all platforms to enable the future split of the Northern Line.


----------



## 437.001

*Central Line*
Debden

Open since 1865.
Part of the extension between Loughton and Ongar of the Loughton branch of the Great Eastern Railway.
Located in Loughton, it was called _"Chigwell Road"_ when it opened in 1865, but just some months later, still in 1865, it was renamed as _"Chigwell Lane"_, finally being renamed as _"Debden"_ in 1949.
Part of the Central Line since 1949.





Video by *ACC84 Metro y Trenes*


----------



## Zaz965




----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548268381249290240


----------



## 437.001

*DLR*
Cyprus

Open since 1994.
Located in Beckton, borough of Newham.
It is part of the Beckton branch.





Video by *ACC84 Metro y Trenes*


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

geogregor said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548268381249290240


I think these are 5 car trains.Does anybody know if they will be able to be coupled together to form 10 car trains?They look great!


----------



## geogregor

lechevallierpatrick said:


> I think these are 5 car trains.Does anybody know if they will be able to be coupled together to form 10 car trains?They look great!


No, they won't be coupled together. Even 5 car trains will need selective doors opening at many stations as they are too long. 

Which doesn't change the fact that "light railway" is becoming increasingly silly name for the DLR as they will have higher capacity trains than many mainline railways.

One better shot:
https://twitter.com/matthewhodg


----------



## stockholm79

Why not 3 doors on car 1, 3 and 5? 
Most systems have entrances/exits in both ends and the middle, so that's where they make more sense.


----------



## Stuu

stockholm79 said:


> Why not 3 doors on car 1, 3 and 5?
> Most systems have entrances/exits in both ends and the middle, so that's where they make more sense.


At a guess cars 2 and 4 have the spaces for wheelchairs/pushchairs etc, with mostly seating in the other cars. It may also be down to stepping distances at some stations, at least for the end cars, as these are substantially longer than the existing cars (17.4m vs 14m for the existing ones)


----------



## 437.001

*District Line
Circle Line*
High Street Kensington

Open since 1868.
Located at Kensington High Street (borough of Kensington and Chelsea), at Kensington Arcade, between Wrights Lane and Derry Street.
It has four platforms, two for through services (District Line services to/from Edgware Road, and Circle Line), and two for terminating District Line trains, including those to Kensington (Olympia).
South of the station there's the junction where the District Line (to/from Earl's Court) diverges from the Circle Line (to/from Gloucester Road)





Video by *ACC84 Metro y Trenes*


----------



## geogregor

It is worth remembering that Bank Station expansion project is not finished yet, the new entrance is still under construction. And some architectural details are just being installed:

P1250895 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1250899 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1250900 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Some shots of the interior of the new DLR trains:









METRO DOCKLANDS


CAF is the supplier for the new automatic Metro units for the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) line managed by Transport for London (TfL)....




www.caf.net


----------



## 437.001

*Northern Line*
Mill Hill East

Open since 1867.
Located in Mill Hill, in the borough of Barnet.
Initially called _"Mill Hill"_, it became _"Mill Hill East"_ in 1928_._
The station has a single platform, although originally was designed for double track, the second track was never laid.
Originally part of the railway line between Finsbury Park and Edgware, which also included the branch from Highgate to Alexandra Palace, and a second branch from Finchley Central to High Barnet.
Became part of the Northern Line in 1941, when the sections between Highbury and Mill Hill East, and also between Finchley Central and High Barnet, were integrated to the London Underground. 
The section between Mill Hill East and Edgware closed in 1939, as it hadn't been electrified, and the remaining part between Finchley Central and Mill Hill East was turned into a single.track stub, with trains operating as a shuttle, except for peak hours and after 23:00.
The direct trains usually end at Kennington or Battersea Power Station.





Video by *ACC84 Metro y Trenes*


----------



## geogregor

HS2 is constructing new infrastructure for London Underground. They have to relocate substation and ventilation shafts at Euston:











HS2 contractors build 93m-long service tunnel at Euston for Northern line | New Civil Engineer


Traction substations are used to convert electrical power to a form suitable for a rail system. A new TSS is being constructed to house the equipment




www.newcivilengineer.com







> Traction substations are used to convert electrical power to a form suitable for a rail system. A new TSS is being constructed to house the equipment needed to provide services and ventilation for the safe operation of the Northern line at Euston station, as the existing one on Melton street will be demolished to make space for the construction of the new HS2 station.
> 
> The Melton street building originally opened in 1907 as an entrance and exit to what is now known as the Northern line and was repurposed for its current function in the 1960s.
> 
> In order to connect the new seven-storey TSS – three stories below ground and four above – with the London Underground Network a 93m-long, 6.5m wide tunnel has been built.
> 
> Construction works started last April, with the Mace Dragados JV (MDJV) sinking a 20m deep shaft. “The shaft is split into two sections,” MDJV senior project manager for the Traction Substation Rob Williams said. “The top 10m section is formed of a caisson, which are curved precast elements that form a ring when you connect them together. The bottom section is formed of spray concrete lining.”
> 
> The diameter of the top section is 8m, while the bottom section has been expanded by 2m to facilitate tunnelling operations.
> 
> HS2 Ltd Euston project client Andy Swift explained that the two different techniques were used because of the variations in ground conditions. The caisson was used for the top section because the ground consisted of made ground and gravel. Once Clay was reached, he said “traditional underpinning techniques were used where you dig down a meter and spray”.
> 
> Williams added that the team faced a challenge when constructing the shaft. “The construction industry ran out of fibres which hold up the spray concrete lining. We all [Transport for London (TfL), HS2, MDJV and supply chain] had to get together to come up with a technical change proposal, so we replaced the tensile capacity from fibres with mesh reinforcement.”
> 
> When the shaft was completed, the construction of the tunnel began. The team carved out the underground passage using an 8t excavator and coated it with a primary sprayed concrete lining (SCL).
> 
> After applying waterproofing, the team reinforced the tunnel with steel and concrete to give it the strength and structure needed ahead of the construction of the HS2 Station that will be taking place above it.
> 
> Working with sub-contractors Cementation Skanska, Careys and JG, MDJV designed the tunnel in a way to reduce the construction’s carbon impact. Carbon savings of 140t were achieved by reducing material and water use, vehicle movements and energy consumption. Efforts to reuse material already on site resulted in over 1,000 fewer lorry movements and an associated saving of 76t of carbon dioxide from vehicle emissions.
> 
> Throughout the tunnelling works, the shaft has been enclosed by an acoustic shed to reduce noise pollution. This enabled 24 hour working which was required to meet the demands of the programme.
> 
> The tunnel is split into two sides separated by a reinforced concrete wall, one side is the cable route and the other is the ventilation route. Due to the existence of water infrastructure assets, a small section of the tunnel has a smaller diameter.
> 
> For the construction of the TSS, 104 piles were installed which allowed the excavation of a 20m-deep box. Earlier this month a 20m x 20m, 1.5m thick base slab has been installed made of 500m3 of concrete. “It's the biggest pour that has been done at HS2 Euston so far,” Williams highlighted.














> He said that the main civil and structural works will be finished by mid next year, with the commissioning of the new substation expected at the end of 2024 or start of 2025.
> 
> After that the existing substation will be demolished. HS2 Ltd will be carefully removing some of the iconic historic features and tiles donating these for reuse and heritage displays.
> 
> TfL lead sponsor Lorena Naylor said that TfL is working with HS2 “to ensure the heritage features from the original building, including the oxblood tiles from 1907, are salvaged and re-used at other stations such as Oxford Circus.”
> 
> “Alongside the new traction substation here, HS2 will deliver a capacity upgrade to Euston underground station ticket hall as well as a new bus station,” Naylor added.


https://twitter.com/HS2ltd


















That's how the above ground element will look like:









And good blog entry on the same subject:









See HS2's new tunnel being dug under Euston station - ianVisits


A large new tunnel is being dug underneath Euston station, by HS2, but not for HS2 - it's for London Underground.Read more ›



www.ianvisits.co.uk















A bit of history there:


> To understand why, leap back to the 1900s, when the Northern line on the London Underground was still two separate competing railways, and in the 1900s, the two tube companies opened separate tube stations at Euston, on either side of the mainline station. A deep-level tunnel linked the two tube lines, with a ticket office in the middle of the tunnel.
> 
> They didn’t last long though, and with an entrance inside Euston station serving both lines, the two separate station entrances outside closed in 1913. The Bank branch building was demolished in 1934, but the Charing Cross branch building survived. That building was gutted internally in the 1960s to provide space for a ventilation fan and an electricity substation.
> 
> However, although it’s still in use pulling hot air out of the tunnels, it is also sitting right in the middle of the planned HS2 station at Euston. In fact, it’s where the platforms will be, so it had to be moved.


From what I understand there is plan to reuse tiles from the old station building, most likely whenever they are needed for restorations of other stations:












> Digging the tunnel and the new box proved to be a challenge, not least because it’s right in the middle of central London and surrounded by lots of other occupants, so noise, dirt and deliveries all needed to be managed to reduce their impact on the residents, but also because the tunnel had to avoid affecting the Northern line just beneath it, a high power electricty tunnel just to one side and major water mains to the other. The work was described as threading a needle to get squeeze the tunnel in the narrow gap between all the other tunnels down here.
> 
> There are two building sites, one for the new box and one for a shaft down to the new tunnel.
> 
> The shaft is a mixed design, being a series of concrete rings pushed into the ground for about 10 metres through the softer surface soils until they reached London clay in June 2021, and could then dig down and spray the concrete onto the clay walls to stabilise it. During construction, a large grey shed was placed over the top to dampen down the noise for the people living and working around the site.
> 
> Normally, the sprayed concrete is reinforced with steel fibres mixed in with it, but an unexpected problem some 3,000 miles away caused a change of plans. That was when a cargo ship got stuck in the Suez Canal, and one of the many side effects was a shortage in the UK of fibres for use in sprayed concrete. So plans at Euston changed to using steel rebar, which is usually reserved for areas where stronger walls are needed. All because of a stuck boat.
> 
> Just to the south, a big square hole was being dug into the ground.
> 
> To build the box, over a hundred thick interlocking piles were driven down into the ground, about half of them are 20 metres deep, the same as the box, and half are longer to help anchor the box into the ground. Once the site was surrounded by a concrete wall, they dug down, adding reinforcing beams in the corners to stop the box from collapsing, until they reached the bottom.
> 
> You may have heard on occasions stories about tall buildings sinking slightly into the ground after construction. Here in London, we have the opposite problem. London clay is very heavy, and the weight compresses the ground beneath it. However, if you dig a deep cube in the ground and remove tons of clay, the ground that was being crushed by the weight above starts to expand. It heaves upwards. To prevent that from happening, a few weeks ago, a convoy of lorries delivered enough concrete to fill the bottom of the box with a very heavy 1.5 metre slab at the base to hold the box in place.
> 
> It’s the largest continuous pour of concrete on the HS2 Euston project to date.
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, as the box was being dug down, over at the shaft, two tunnels were being dug, one towards the box, and the other towards the Northern line.
> 
> The tunnel was dug manually, using diggers and sprayed concrete, and then waterproof lined and given a final internal seal of concrete was added earlier this year. Just as at the box, the tunnel needs a heavy concrete base to stabilise it in the clay so that it won’t affect the HS2 station above.
> 
> A major event that took place recently was when the new HS2 tunnel broke through into the 117 year old Northern line tunnels. These are the customer tunnels that used to lead from the platforms to the old ticket hall, and today are used for ventilation.
> 
> Now that the modern tunnels have been completed, work is underway to fit them out, and build a wall right down the middle. One side will be for electrical cable and the other side for ventilation.
> 
> It would have been easier to avoid the wall, but it would mean that ventilation maintenance could only be carried out by staff trained to work in proximity to high voltage power cables, so separating them will make long-term maintenance easier. That separation applies to the box as well — which will be split down the middle with a solid wall. One half will have a replacement ventilation fan installed to pump cool air into the Northern line, and the other side will be for the electrical substation.


----------



## mrsmartman




----------



## geogregor

Works to improve frequency of Victoria Line trains north of Seven Sisters:









Photos - rebuilding a Victoria Line crossover junction - ianVisits


Deep underground at Walthamstow fiery welders fill tunnels with smoke while the din of hammers deafens workers in a hot cramped working space. This is the Victoria line upgrade at work.Read more ›



www.ianvisits.co.uk









































More photos in the article.


----------



## geogregor

Bakerloo line trains:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568356100776263681
They are 50 years old and are literally falling apart...


----------



## stockholm79

With proper maintenance they would look a lot better


----------



## Stuu

TfL are spending a lot of money keeping them running, they had very expensive corrosion repairs in the last few years as they are literally falling to bits. They are pretty likely to make it to 60 years in service,l


----------



## ChrisN11

Today, while travelling on the tube, I decided to see for myself whether it is now possible to walk completely underground between Liverpool Street and Moorgate stations, and this proved to be correct. Alighting from the Central Line at Liverpool Street, I followed the signs for the Elizabeth Line and found that I could walk all the way to Moorgate station via a new pedestrian tunnel, although this entails having to go down a huge escalator to the Elizabeth Line, walk the full length of the new Elizabeth Line platforms, and then go up a second huge escalator while following the signs for Moorgate. I eventually emerged inside Moorgate station at the end of the eastbound Hammersmith & City Line platform, which took me by surprise because I was expecting to be closer to street level.

It was all quite good fun, but based on past experience, I think it is slightly quicker to walk between the two stations at street level (South Place / Eldon Street) than to use the new tunnel. So if you aren't in a hurry, it may be best to avoid using the new tunnel unless the weather is too cold or wet for walking outdoors.


----------



## stockholm79

Didn't Geoff make a video about it?


----------



## geogregor

Progress at Bank Station:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579818365958336513


----------



## geogregor

New link opened:








Changing To The DLR From The Northern Line At Bank Is Now Up To Nine Minutes Faster


And it'll soon be easier from the Central line too.




londonist.com































Bank station's new escalators between DLR and Northern lines has opened - ianVisits


A bank of new escalators opened this morning at Bank tube station, creating a direct stairs-free link between the DLR and Northern lines for the first time.Read more ›



www.ianvisits.co.uk
































First new carriage for Piccadilly line is taking shape:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580514293971226624


----------



## Stuu

Where does the nine minutes come from? There was a single flight of stairs between the DLR and the Northern Line


----------



## NCT

Probably congested time in TfL's pedestrian model.


----------



## geogregor

Some shots from Acton Town.

Platforms here are high on Piccadilly side, one needs to step up from the train to the platform:

P1380108 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I guess because platforms match the subsurface lines:

P1380110 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380126 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380113 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380114 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

View west of the station, on all the crossing and junctions where Piccadilly Line splits into two branches. We also have District Line and depot.

P1380117 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380119 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Three Picaddilly trains in one shot:

P1380121 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380124 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Went to check out new links at Bank station.

New concourse between Northern line platforms, it used to be old platform before it was moved to new enlarged tunnel:

P1380181 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221109_154951 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

New links:

20221109_154807 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

New escalators to DLR:

P1380192 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380206 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And recently opened route to Central Line:

P1380189 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380208 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Including travelators:

P1380193 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380198 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380200 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

New escalators to Central Line:

P1380213 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Good old Central line 

P1380214 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Heading back to Northern Line:

P1380217 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380220 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380218 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1380222 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

New southbound platform of Northern Line:

P1380204 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## schmidt

Looks like the new connector has actually reduced the walk, but I am unsure. They mentioned that the Northern-DLR connector would reduce journey times by 9 minutes, but they are already very close to each other, unless they are talking about step-free access. Sometimes these "upgrades" actually _increase_ travel times between lines, such as what they did at Kings Cross, where you have to take a huge corridor to go from the Piccadilly or Northern Line to the Victoria, even though there is a tiny set of stairs going up to the Victoria line from the Northern/Piccadilly concourse.


----------



## NCT

The new Northern - Central and Northern - DLR routes are definitely direct and saves a lot of walking up/down stairs. The old Northern - Central route involved two flights of stairs; the old DLR - Central route involved an annoying up and down. The travellator greatly reduces walking efforts hence interchange time.

There used to be two DLR - Northern routes - the narrow staircases at the southern ends of the platforms of about 5 floors, or the up and back down route at the northern ends. The '9-minute' saving is probably relative to the latter, and might even be congested or weighted time from TfL's pedestrian model.


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## Stuu

The nine minute number is absolute nonsense. The signed route was via the stairs, which were direct and a vertical climb/drop of 10m. It took a minute at most, even when it was busy


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## geogregor

Stuu said:


> The nine minute number is absolute nonsense. The signed route was via the stairs, which were direct and a vertical climb/drop of 10m. It took a minute at most, even when it was busy


I agree. Maybe it took 2 minutes, but that's it. I don't know how they can post "9 minutes time saving" with straight face...

Having said that, the interchange now is much more comfortable, safer and less prone for overcrowding.


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## NCT

Stuu said:


> The nine minute number is absolute nonsense. The signed route was via the stairs, which were direct and a vertical climb/drop of 10m. It took a minute at most, even when it was busy


From memory the stairs route was only signed from the very southern ends of the platforms. For most of the platform length you were directed to the up and down route at the northern end.


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## JD22LU

Is the new Cannon Street entrance open too?


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## Stuu

JD22LU said:


> Is the new Cannon Street entrance open too?


No, not yet. I think it's due to open in December


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