# FRANCE | Railways



## juanico

florekf said:


> Few years ago I discovered that Saint-Germain or La Defense are independent cities.


La Défense is not a city, but just a district, partly on the cities of Nanterre, Courbevoie and Puteaux. 

A part from that little mistake you are right about the division in Paris metro: 400 independent cities (= _communes_) for Paris urban area, 1600 for metro!



florekf said:


> Are the systems of Metro, RER and buses integrated (few operators under one mother-operator??)?


There are three companies operating the different systems:
RATP (=Parisian Transportation Authority) -> Métro (100%), RER (partly), Tram (3 lines out of 4), Bus (all Paris and inner suburbs lines)
SNCF (=National Railways) -> RER (partly), Tram (1 line only), suburban lines (100%)
OPTILE (=*ILE*-de-france *T*ransportation *P*rofessional *O*rganisation) -> buses in outer suburbs and metro area

Anyway these 3 companies are coordinated by the Ile-de-France Transportation Authority (STIF), therefore yes, with one card you will be able to go everywhere.

Otherwise I second what Eklips said about identity.


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## Guest

Anyone read Le Train regularly?

I've just got a copy of 'Les lignes de Paris a Lille, Bruxelles et Liege' from Platform 5 mail order. It's quite interesting and has track diagrams of different stations including Lille.

I was just wondering are there any books out there which have track diagrams for Paris and specifically le Gare du Nord?

I am determined to find out where all those 44 tracks are :lol:


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## Minato ku

New pictures of the NAT


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## iampuking

What an earth is a "NAT"?


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## juanico

NAT = "_Nouvelle Automotrice Transilien_", the new generation of suburban trains that will serve Paris' network by 2009.


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## Minato ku

Now for the RER use this thread please.

Paris RER Thread


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## Frog

I like the colourful seats, looks retro


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## Minato ku

Suburban train picture by De Snor.

Courbevoie station


















Suburban train of Saint Lazare network (serve Courbevoie station)









Suburban train at Gare de L'Est international


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## eklips

I have actually never taken the trancilien, does it work like an RER, are the prices similar?


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## Minato ku

I don't know I use my ImaginR contacless card. 

I don't see big difference between Saint Lazare transillien and the RER C and D, the only big difference is that the Transillien Saint Lazare network work better.

A news information panel for suburban train at Saint Lazare railway terminal.


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## Good

Yes prices are similar. A Transilien is just a RER that stops at a terminus basically 
As Minato said, some Transiliens are more efficient to get to central Paris than some RERs.


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## Minato ku

Good said:


> Yes prices are similar. A Transilien is just a RER that stops at a terminus basically
> As Minato said, some Transiliens are more efficient to get to central Paris than some RERs.


I would said transillien is a RER C or D that stops at a terminal railway.
Because for me RATP RER are more like a subway than a suburban train.

Note that the RATP RER have a smallest network but a highest riderships than SNCF RER.


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## eklips

The southern end of the B line doesn't really work like a metro, we only get a train every 15 minutes or so.


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## Minato ku

eklips said:


> The southern end of the B line doesn't really work like a metro, we only get a train every 15 minutes or so.


Of course due it is due at the low density (It is like the London tube) but in inner suburbs it is 2-3 minutes.

But where you live in les Ulis.
In Massy - Palaiseau station, it should be around 5-6 minutes, exept if you live closer to Bures-sur-Yvette or Orsay stations.
:dunno:


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## Minato ku

Suburban train of saint Lazare network


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## Bitxofo

^^Transilien?
:?


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## [email protected]

Bitxofo said:


> ^^Transilien?
> :?





> The Transilien is the brand name for railway services of the SNCF-owned railway network operating within Paris' Île-de-France région. "Transilien" is a derivative of "Francilien", a term commonly used to describe the inhabitants of the Île-de-France région.
> 
> [...]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transilien


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## Bitxofo

^^I knew the meaning of Francilien and Transilien because I lived in Paris, merci!

I was asking if the train in the video was a Transilien train to Saint Lazare.
:wink2:


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## Minato ku

Yes it is. :yes:


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## [email protected]

Bitxofo said:


> I was asking if the train in the video was a Transilien train to Saint Lazare.
> :wink2:


Why it could not be a Transilien ?


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## Minato ku

It could be an intercity train, corail.


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## [email protected]

Minato ku said:


> It could be an intercity train, corail.


No, because the train drives too close to the platforms of the station "Clichy-Levallois" to be an intercity train... 
In my opinion, this movie has been taken from an "old" VB2N car...


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## Minato ku

Saint Lazare suburban train

At Marly le Roi station


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## Bitxofo

^^Old train...
:sly:


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## Minato ku

Refurbished 
So these are good and clean.


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## iampuking

Bitxofo said:


> ^^Old train...
> :sly:


Oh no not an old car!!! 

I don't know what is with some people on SSC, they seem to have a fixation with everything having to be modern, give me an Intercity 125 anyday over those bloody Pendolinionisios.


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## Bitxofo

iampuking said:


> Oh no not an old car!!!
> 
> I don't know what is with some people on SSC, they seem to have a fixation with everything having to be modern, give me an Intercity 125 anyday over those bloody Pendolinionisios.


I meant old looking.

Nowadays, old trains cab be renovated and they look better than new ones.
kay:


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## edubejar

Here is the Plan des zones tarifaires (Fare Zone Map of Greater Paris by the RATP) which includes the RER and Transilien (suburban train) network. Without getting too particular on what is what, both networks represent together the complete suburban/commuter train network that serves to connect Paris with the near and distant suburbs. 

As probably mentioned before, the RER lines run from one end of Greater Paris to another, passing through the City-proper (Paris intra-muros) via underground tunnels or quasi-underground passages deeper than street-level grade (which I've seen on some of the branches of line C of the RER within Paris). This through-Paris service allows the RER to be used as an express line within Paris, especially since the RER offers various connections with the metro. Currently, the more recent E line of the RER terminates in Paris intra-muros and only runs in and out one end of it, but it still serves as an express service between the St-Lazare Station-Haussmann area and the Nord Station area.

The Transilien train network trains leave from intercity train stations, outbound to the near and far suburbs, some branches with service only to the far suburbs. This network ressembles more the suburban or commuter train network of most cities in the world. A few lines, like 3 of them, do not originate from a Paris intercity train station so only serve as suburb-to-suburb lines, such as the one departing from La Défense business district. Since you can only take a Transilien train within Paris intra-muros from 5 of the 6 Paris intercity train stations (except Pont Cadinet station which is just a Transilien station), many people who are not from the Paris region are not aware of the Transilien network. The RER network on the otherhand, has several stations throughout Paris intra-muros and appears as a connection/transfer from various metro stations.

Link in case no image appears below http://www.ratp.info/orienter/f_plan.php?loc=reseaux&nompdf=zones&fm=gif&forced=gif&lang=fr&partenaire=ratp


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## edubejar

^^^ And here is a link to another map by the Paris RATP which also shows the RER and Transilien network in Greater Paris, but unlike the previous map, it also shows the métro, tram lines, and the TVM line in the south of Greater Paris (a very long bus line on a dedicated right-of-way lane). This map is also more of a geographic representation of the lines rathern than a schematic map.
Link: http://www.ratp.info/orienter/f_plan.php?nompdf=rer_idf_geo&loc=secteur&fm=pdf


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## Minato ku

Thanks.

Pont Cardinet station










Tis platform was used as a link between te RER C (Levallois Pereire station) and Pont Cardinet.
This link was closed in 1996 due at a low ridership.


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## hkskyline

*FRANCE | Railway Photos*

*Great architecture and art leave a taste of the glory days of rail travel in Paris *
20 January 2008
Sunday Independent

The old steam engines that he painted, belching smoke into the Parisian sky, are, of course, long gone. But take an unusual sight-seeing tour of Paris’s Gare Saint-Lazare and you can picture the scene that the great Impressionist Claude Monet painted 131 years ago. 

Monet became fascinated by trains. He filled 12 canvasses with Saint-Lazare, adhering to his philosophy of repetition of the same theme. To the outsider, this may seem curious but to Monet, different skies equalled different light equalled different colours. 

Paris’s great old railway stations might seem an odd destination for the tourist. But they offer a beguiling mix of architectural splendour, a throbbing hub of humanity with all its attendant expressions and a veritable pot-pourri of historical connections. 

A potential general knowledge quiz question is: how many stations are there in Paris? The general theory is six, but it is incorrect. First, the obvious ones … 

Gare Saint-Lazare: Monet’s exquisite painting, smoke pouring into the blue sky from one locomotive entering the station and another leaving while another train stands silent in the station, is a classic. Pretty much the same building with its part glass roof covering the tracks exists today. Built in 1837 for the line from Paris to St Germain-en-Laye in the western suburbs, it was Paris’s first train station, re-built in 1843 by Alfred Armand and extended 10 years later. The present frontal building, with hotel attached, was erected in 1889. Here trains run to Normandy and Dieppe. 

Gare d’Austerlitz: This is where trains leave for southwest France, Spain and Portugal. The station was named after the site of Napoleon’s great battle against Austro-Russian forces, in Austria, in 1805. It was first conceived in 1840 for the Orleans Company, but rebuilt from 1865-68. Its impressive steel and glass roof is largely screened. 

Gare de l’Est: Built from 1847-1850, it was originally named the Gare de Strasbourg, its chief destination. Its name was changed in 1854 and a major extension with an east wing added from 1924-31. The main departure hall is today a sumptuous glass-roofed interior with impressive columns. 

The German high-speed ICE trains run here from the eastern France-German border. On the front of the building are statues representing the cities of Strasbourg and Verdun, and a poignant painting, by Alfred Herter, hangs in the western-wing ticket hall depicting soldiers departing from the station for the front in 1914. There are representations of 32 important cities in eastern France decorating the access arcade. 

Gare de Lyon: From here modern TGV trains whisk you to Marseille on the Mediterranean in exactly three hours. It was opened in splendour in 1900. Festooned in flags, the Impressionists have left us a vivid image of how it must have looked upon its opening. 

The gem of the Gare de Lyon is Le Train Bleu restaurant on the floor above the station concourse. Here, in the Edwardian 1930s, travellers would lunch in elegance in a sprawling room decorated with 40 paintings, depicting destinations from the station, before boarding the overnight train south. The Mediterranean features prominently in the murals. Under the expert eye of architect Marius Toudoire, it took 30 artists to paint the room in Belle Epoque style. It is exactly the same today as when it first opened in 1901. 

Gare du Nord: This is where you arrive on the Eurostar from London, the Thalys train from Brussels and the express train from Cologne and Amsterdam. Its origins date to 1846 but, just 11 years later, it was decided to build a station three times larger. 

Construction, under German-born architect Jacques Hittorff, who also designed the Champs-Elysées garden and two fountains on the Place de la Concorde, began in 1861 and lasted five years. 

A mix of neoclassicism and 19th-century new metal structures, one of its greatest sights is the nine statues that adorn the front of the building, with names of the most important destinations from the station. 

Gare Montparnasse: This is beyond dispute the ugliest of Paris’s stations. It was built originally in 1840 but completely rebuilt after the Second World War. Yet it has one major claim to fame. In 1895, a locomotive and the first coach it was pulling, failed to stop and plunged off the track from the first floor of the station onto the street below. 

Those are Paris’s six major stations, but there is another, the little known Gare de Bercy on the east side. Here, you can catch an overnight sleeper to Italy. Close to the station is a fascinating, renovated area that contains the location of the old wine distribution centre for Paris. In a modernised shopping street, you can go wine tasting: try Chai 33, for a good example. 

Lastly, the station that is no more although the building has been splendidly revived – the Gare d’Orsay. It opened in 1900 to coincide with the Great Exhibition and was the first railway station in the world to have electric power. Until 1939, it was the terminus for destinations in southwest France but then was closed to long-distance traffic. 

What sealed its fate were its short platforms in a modern era. Yet it was still used as a collection point for the despatch of parcels to prisoners in the Second World War and, after the war, as a reception centre for liberated prisoners. 

Today, the old Gare d’Orsay is revived as the Musée D’Orsay, re-designed in 1977 and opened in 1986. It houses France’s finest collection of Impressionist paintings. 

Suitably, on a floor high up that overlooks the Seine and the sumptuous city, you can see close up one of Monet’s beautiful paintings of La Gare Saint-Lazare.


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## Frogged

hkskyline said:


> *
> 
> Gare Montparnasse: This is beyond dispute the ugliest of Paris’s stations. It was built originally in 1840 but completely rebuilt after the Second World War. Yet it has one major claim to fame. In 1895, a locomotive and the first coach it was pulling, failed to stop and plunged off the track from the first floor of the station onto the street below. *


*

an old picture of the accident mentioned there...








*


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## Hugues75

I live at 300 m from the "pont de l'Europe" (Europe bridge), from which you have a beautiful point of view of Gare Saint-Lazare.


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## Minato ku

They forget Pont Carndinet station, it is only a suburban rail station in Saint Lazare network.
Paris has 8 railway station if we exclud the RER and subway

Musee d'Orsay is always a train station. The station is just underground for the RER C but this line use the old tunnels of the old Orsay station.


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## Justme

Interesting, pity no photos.


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## hkskyline

Gare du Nord























































Gare de Lyon


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## edubejar

Minato ku said:


> They forget Pont Carndinet station, it is only a suburban rail station in Saint Lazare network.
> Paris has 8 railway station if we exclud the RER and subway
> 
> Musee d'Orsay is always a train station. The station is just underground for the RER C but this line use the old tunnels of the old Orsay station.


Minato ku, don't over do it. This article is referring to intercity train stations (grandes lignes), which all 7 mentioned train stations are. If you want to add Pont Cadinet station then you are adding a station that is unlike the rest. Remember as a very young child in grade school how you had to circle the item that was out of place: banana, orange, egg, and apple...you had to circle the egg. Well no intercity train stops in Pont Cadinet to pick up people...you have to go to St-Lazare, because Pont Cadinet is only for suburban trains. And Musée d'Orsay may still use its underground tunnels for the RER but without any intercity trains running through the same underground tracks it can't be included in this list.


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## Minato ku

La Defense
Suburban trains and light rails platforms.


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## Fitó...!!!

*Des Photos

Poissy A5









Versailles - Rive Gauche C5 
Chateau de Versailles

Double-decker RER rolling stock






*


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## Minato ku

Thanks but there is a special thread for the RER, at least the RER A and B.

Gare Saint Lazare.


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## hoosier

What is the average speed of suburban line trains?


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## Minato ku

The average speed of a suburban line ? I really don't know, that's very hard to know.

*Puteaux station* 

Trains of La Defense - La Verriere line



























T2 light rail


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## Fitó...!!!

Minato ku said:


> Thanks but there is a special thread for the RER, at least the RER A and B.


Oh! But i couldnt find the link to that thread. Where is it??


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## elfabyanos

It's in the Subways and Urban Transport section http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=546006


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## Songoten2554

*to bring this thread back*

hello everyone i am going to try to bring back this thread

i wonder if people in paris which terminals do you use to go from work to home or home to work or beyond?


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## Minato ku

It depend 
People who live in the northern suburbs take the suburban train at Gare du Nord,
Gare Saint Lazare for the western suburbs, 
Gare de l'Est for the easter suburbs
Gare de Lyon for the southeastern suburbs
Gare Montparnasse for the southwestern suburbs.
In an other way more suburbanite take the RER than the suburban trains.

Me, I live in the subway network, so usualy I never take the suburban train for 
Sometimes I use the Saint Lazare suburban network because it is really scenic.


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## Minato ku

The new transillien rolling stock that will run in Est, Nord and Saint Lazare network.
It is called NAT or Francillenne.

http://www.britorail.net/vie-ferroviaire-reelle/nouvelle-automotrice-transilien-26-27-10-2006.php 

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle_automotrice_transilien


















































































Thanks at edubejar.


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## Bitxofo

^^Très joli!
kay:
Is it already working? In which line?
:?


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## Minato ku

No, the first trains will run in 2009.


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## Augusto

Bitxofo said:


> ^^Très joli!
> kay:
> Is it already working? In which line?
> :?


What you can see is only a mockup. The aesthetic is subject to change. They are going to be wider than the trains they'll replace thanks to the shortness of the carriages.
They are likely to be found first in Gare du Nord and Saint Lazare stations. 
In my opinion they should consider shorter train also for evening services. Short one level trains are much easier to secure when all passengers are concentrated in 2 carriages. This is already like that on line U, where 2 carriages on 4 are closed at night. And those short trains could be used during peak hour on some small shuttle services like Paris Montparnasse-Sevres or Saint-Lazare-Nanterre-U.


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## edubejar

Augusto said:


> What you can see is only a mockup. The aesthetic is subject to change. They are going to be wider than the trains they'll replace thanks to the shortness of the carriages.
> They are likely to be found first in Gare du Nord and Saint Lazare stations.
> In my opinion they should consider shorter train also for evening services. Short one level trains are much easier to secure when all passengers are concentrated in 2 carriages. This is already like that on line U, where 2 carriages on 4 are closed at night. And those short trains could be used during peak hour on some small shuttle services like Paris Montparnasse-Sevres or Saint-Lazare-Nanterre-U.



I hope it only changes for the better. I really like the interior


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## Minato ku

*Nanterre Universite*
















Nanterre Prefecture station was build in 1970 it is an interchange station between the RER A St Germain branch and Transillien St Lazare, Poissy - Cergy line.
The station is under in reconstruction.


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## Minato ku

*Meudon*









Station of Montparnasse suburban system


















You see the famous "Petit Gris" the worst train type in Paris suburban network. Build in the 1960's 1970's and hated by 99% of commuters.


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## Svartmetall

^^ What is wrong with that type of train? They look a little dated, but not bad to me.


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## Minato ku

Slow, dirty, dated, too warm, uncomfortable... 

Many of these trains will be remplaced by this type of train.
Here a mockup.


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## Minato ku




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## Svartmetall

It's always great to see busy train systems. It reminds me what real transit systems look like. :lol:


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## Minato ku

Yeh but it was weird, I took these picture in low peak hours.

Seeing this picture, I understand why.
The traffic was perturbated (strike) a train every 25 minutes between La Defense and St Lazare instead of a train every 5 minutes. hno:


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## Minato ku

*La Garenne Colombe*


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## hoosier

So there are three tiers to Greater Paris' rail transit system: Metro, RER, and Suburban?


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## Alvar Lavague

serdar samanlı;27551072 said:


> First and third locos look like they are French made.


The second one is french made too : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_BB_26000

The TER (last picture) is built by Bombardier, a canadian company, but probably in a french factory. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorail_à_grande_capacité


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## hoosier

Isn't RER the suburban Paris rail network?


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## [email protected]

^^ The answer is on the first post of this thread... 

More info here


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## [email protected]

Kuvvaci said:


> could please you show also interior photos if you can find?


A Z5300 (built from 1965 to 1975), some have been refurbished in 1979 and later:









The version refurbished in 1979:









The version refurbished in the 90's:











A Z6400 (built from 1976 to 1979) refurbished in livery "Ile de France":

















A Z6400 refurbished in livery "GCO":
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=13487882&postcount=3



A Z20500 (built from 1988 to 1998), some have been refurbished like the Z20900:



















A Z22500 (built from 1996 to 2000):



































A Z20900 (built from 2001 to 2003):



















A RIB refurbished:



















A VB2N refurbished:



















A B 82500 or AGC/BGC/BiBi between Paris and Provins (Transilien service: 95km from Paris-Gare de l'Est):



















Below, trains for long-distance commuter services outside Ile de France region such as Paris-Laroche Migennes, Paris-Rouen, Paris-Amiens, Paris-Château Thierry or Paris-Le Mans so it is no more Transilien services but TER services...

A VO2N between Paris and Amiens (130km from Paris-Gare du Nord), it looks like the VB2N:









2nd class:









1st class:











EDIT: A V2N between Paris and Sens/Laroche-Migennes (112/154km from Paris-Gare de Lyon):









2nd class:









1st class:











A Z26500 or TER 2N NG between Paris and Beauvais (80km from Paris-Gare du Nord) :


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## Kuvvaci

wonderful pix...

I have some question. 

Are all of these suburban trains currently in the service?
Doesn't Alstrom produce locomotives anymore and just focused on High speeds?
I have been to Paris but couldn't travel in France. Is the railway most dominant transporation in france (beside airways of course) or you have some intercity buses as well?


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## [email protected]

Kuvvaci said:


> Are all of these suburban trains currently in the service?


Yes.




Kuvvaci said:


> Doesn't Alstrom produce locomotives anymore and just focused on High speeds?


No they produce locomotives like the BB27300 for VB2N refurbished trains:













Kuvvaci said:


> I have been to Paris but couldn't travel in France. Is the railway most dominant transporation in france (beside airways of course) or you have some intercity buses as well?


No, intercity buses are not so developed such as in UK or US...


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## Kuvvaci

so, France and Germany are very similar in the terms of transportation then... Very developed railway system.


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## hans280

Actually, yes: the Germans normally refer to the project as the "Magistrale Paris-Budapest". The LGV-Est is, from the perspective of EU planning, part the Trans-European Networks, namely the main rail axis France-Munich-Vienna-Budapest. 

The problem is, this axis is not really taking shape. It's used as a pretext for milking EU funds, but time and again railway investments - or mere upgrades of existing lines - in Germany and Austria are taken hostage to local political pressures. A true high-speed (or, just, high capacity) axis between Paris and Budapest would surely pass such small towns as Metz, Ulm and Salzburg on dedicated new lines without having to wast precious time on the old tracks of the inner cities, but... in reality this is the case only for Metz. Conversely, global metropolises such as Ulm and Augsburg cannot be bypassed. Never ever. The mayors wouldn't accept this! :nuts:


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## Augusto

[email protected] said:


> A V2N between Paris and Chartres (90km from Paris Montparnasse (?)):


Nice pictures. 
But I don't think that there are any V2N on this line. I've never seen them at Montparnasse station.


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## convalescence

But there are some works on this axis in progress and in planning:

-completion of LGV est to Strasbourg
-new rhine bridge near Strasbourg
-Stuttgart 21 (includes new through station under the town instead of the dead-end station, a tunnel through the city, a tunnel from the city to the airport of Stuttgart)
-HSL Stuttgart-Ulm
-new through station in Wien (i think there's a thread about it)


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## hans280

^^ Oh, sure. You could also have added the relatively ambitious renovation strategy for the Rhine Valley Railway between Karlsruhe and Basle, part of which will be included in the "Paris-Budapest Magistrale". 

What I simply meant to say is, in French eyes trans-European networks are about dedicated tracks intended for trips longer than, say, 400 km. Making a new railway line between Stuttgart and Ulm - no matter how modern, fast and expensive - is more about local transport than about Paris-Budapest. The proof is, each time you drive through a city centre you lose at least 10 minutes. Hence, if the main purpose of a new line were to get faster from the Rhine Valley to Hungary then that line would no pass through "die Ulmer Innenstadt". Quod Erat Demonstrandum.


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## rheintram

@hans: France topography and settlement structure is very different from say the one in Austria, Southern Germany and Hungary. In Central Europe the population is very widespread withing a lot of midsized towns and cities. We have much less space, than France has, hence new rail corridors are hardly possible, so the existing ones have to be upgraded. Unlike France we don't have two or three huge metro areas and hardly anything in between (I'm exagerating, but I think you would agree). Hence it is absolutely necessary to serve cities like Ulm or Linz, to make the lines profitable and effizient. The truth is, the number of passengers who'd travel the whole distance Budapest-Paris, is rather small, compared to those who just travel a segement.

Btw. in Austria there are currently 35km of tunnels under construction which are part of the magistrale project (fitted for max speed of 250km/h). So it's a bit of a joke to claim that only France actually works on this project.


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## juanico

Kuvvaci said:


> Is the railway most dominant transporation in france or you have some intercity buses as well?





[email protected] said:


> No, intercity buses are not so developed such as in UK or US...


Well, I would qualify this answer... In fact all main cities and towns are linked by railway, so yes it is the most dominant public transportation here and sometimes the only one when you want to travel to these places. But, over the last decades many small stations have been closed, particularly in the countryside (for profitability reasons), therefore the service in these areas have been replaced by coaches (offen run by SNCF).


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## serdar samanlı1

Do the doors of Z5300 trains fail to close ever?


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## [email protected]

Augusto said:


> But I don't think that there are any V2N on this line. I've never seen them at Montparnasse station.


You must be right. 
Actually, I didn't recognized the railway station ; now I guess it is the "Gare de Lyon". I knew that the regions "Picardie" (Amiens), "Haute Normandie" (Rouen) and "Bourgogne" (Sens/Laroche-Migennes) owned these kind of trains and I was thinking that it was also the case for the region "Centre" (Chartres), may be it is not true...


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## Kuvvaci

are all trains like these medium range trains?

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/car/regional/VO2N/c-rth2002-10-23_10-59-10.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...CRW_0819.jpg/800px-Gare_de_Creil_CRW_0819.jpg


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## [email protected]

juanico said:


> Well, I would qualify this answer... In fact all main cities and towns are linked by railway, so yes it is the most dominant public transportation here and sometimes the only one when you want to travel to these places. But, over the last decades many small stations have been closed, particularly in the countryside (for profitability reasons), therefore the service in these areas have been replaced by coaches (offen run by SNCF).


Actually, I don't know what Kuvvaci exactly means by "Intercity buses" !? 
I have understood his question as "Do you have some buses between Paris and Lille/Rouen/Reims... ?"
So what you say is ok but it is not a high frequency service between 2 main cities as you can find in UK (every 15mn).
What you can find in France, except these TER services, are suburban express services operated by coaches that use highways (ex Express A14, La Navette Aix-Marseille or Express Voiron/Grenoble/Crolles).
Other intercity services (for example: Grenoble-Nice, Grenoble-Genève) have a very low frequency...


----------



## serdar samanlı1

Do they still manufacture locomotives with diamond-shaped pantographs?


----------



## SeyMan

hoosier said:


> Isn't RER the suburban Paris rail network?


There are two systems: the RER and the Transilien. (but 3 RER lines: RER C, RER D and RER E are also considered part of Transilien). The system is really complicated and hard to describe in only a few words. Basically (but this is a rough approximation) RER offers more a metro style service with good frequencies and station density in the inner suburbs and some nearby outer suburbs. The Transilien go further than the RER. They tend not to stop in the inner suburbs, but once in the outer suburbs (where there's no RER service anymore) they stop frequently. The trains are quite fast and can reach 140 km/h and can travel sometimes up to 25 km or more without stopping, e.g. Paris Est - Chelles (RER E terminus), or Paris Lyon - Melun (Melun is also on the RER D line). However there are Transilien lines which do not operate like that, especially in the La Défense network.


----------



## SeyMan

By the way, today there is a major strike and almost all Transilien and RER traffic is suspended. (except for RER A and part of RER B which don't belong to SNCF).


----------



## Kuvvaci

they are underground in the city too. Also La Defence Station is underground too.


----------



## Minato ku

There is no underground or elevated suburban station inside inner Paris (excluding RER)
Anyway outside the inner city there is many elevated stations.


----------



## christos-greece

eomer said:


> It was allready old in 1979. They are still in operation: that's a shame.


Indeed...


----------



## serdar samanlı1

Minato ku said:


> There is no underground or elevated suburban station inside inner Paris (excluding RER)
> Anyway outside the inner city there is many elevated stations.


Gare Montparnasse is underground beneath an office building complex


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

serdar samanlı;29654870 said:


> I am talking about heavy-rail not metro


Me too... but I was referring to RER


Minato ku said:


> There is no underground or elevated suburban station inside inner Paris (excluding RER)
> Anyway outside the inner city there is many elevated stations.


[...]



serdar samanlı;29722194 said:


> Gare Montparnasse is underground beneath an office building complex


Theoretically it is not underground as they built the buildings and more recently a 'square' elevated over the rail tracks and platforms that are at grade

Even in Milan Graibaldi station is partly 'covered' by two skyscrapers they built over the tracks from 12 to 20


----------



## Augusto

serdar samanlı;29722194 said:


> Gare Montparnasse is underground beneath an office building complex


No, the station is not underground and the plateforms are much higher than the street level, on the second floor. You may had the feeling to be underground because a public garden has been built above the tracks in the mid 80'.


----------



## Minato ku

NAT or Francillien 



















Metropole

These trains will greatly modernize the rolling stock of our suburban network.


----------



## De Snor

There they are then , I even didn't recognize them in their grey colour


----------



## Minato ku

^^ It is a train without the livery.


----------



## Koen Acacia

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Theoretically it is not underground as they built the buildings and more recently a 'square' elevated over the rail tracks and platforms that are at grade
> 
> *Even in Milan Graibaldi station is partly 'covered' by two skyscrapers they built over the tracks from 12 to 20*


Construction *above* existing train tracks? That's interesting, could you give any links/info about that project perhaps?


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

^^
It's not as complicated as it appears. You have to build the structure on _'pilotis'_ between the rail tracks

Anyway, this is Montparnasse railstation: buildings and a garden/square built on the whole area of the platforms











And here Milano Garibaldi station
The two towers (now under recladding) lay on part of the platform area, but there is a project (just the will, currently) to make like at Montparnasse and 'cover' everything



















The project was of '80s 










Here a aerview of end of '80s when just one tower was u/c: you can see the tracks now 'covered' 

























www.milanofoto.it

Here one of the platforms under the towers



















In this map you can see how the two towers are laying on the platforms: you can also see that tracks from 13 to 20 are crossing tracks and go underground into a tunnel which connects 'em to Monza direction
You can also see an S-line tunnel and various metro tunnels









www.msrmilano.com

One of the towers seen from the passengers terminal


----------



## Koen Acacia

Awesome! 
I realize that it's not a particularly complicated way of building, it's just that I've never heard of anyone doing it like this.
Thanks a lot for the elaborate info, I really appreciate it.


----------



## Minato ku

*Ermont Eaubonne*


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

Brand new? I like it

I'm wondering why they didn't connect even the two tracks to St.Lazare leavin' 'em dead-end


----------



## juanico

^^ The tracks used to be connected before 2006 when they totally renovated the station and the tracks layout. A long time ago it was possible to ride from St-Lazare to Gare du Nord via Ermont-Eaubonne on this spur. Due to exploitation necessities Ermont-Eaubonne eventually became the terminus for the trains coming from St-Lazare.


----------



## Minato ku

This is our new suburban rolling stock.
The Z50000 also called NAT or Francilien.













































http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157622600439813/

By 2016 most of our rolling stock should be under twenty years old while today many of our trains are about 40 years old.


----------



## hoosier

^^Beautiful trains!:cheers:


----------



## metro_minotaur

those new trains are really colourful, i like it.


----------



## Minato ku

*Argenteuil*




















































































GENIUS LOCI said:


> Brand new? I like it
> 
> I'm wondering why they didn't connect even the two tracks to St.Lazare leavin' 'em dead-end





juanico said:


> ^^ The tracks used to be connected before 2006 when they totally renovated the station and the tracks layout. A long time ago it was possible to ride from St-Lazare to Gare du Nord via Ermont-Eaubonne on this spur. Due to exploitation necessities Ermont-Eaubonne eventually became the terminus for the trains coming from St-Lazare.


It is not exactly the case, these tracks to Saint Lazare where in fact the Argenteuil branch of the RER C. 
It was not possible to do Ermont Eaubonnes - Saint Lazare without a change in Argenteuil.
They closed this branch and remplaced it by a new line Saint Lazare-Argenteuil-Ermont Eabonnes.
They did some heavy work, adding new tracks, building new bridge over the Seine river.


----------



## Minato ku

The map that I posted in the first pot of this thread show well how was the situation before the end of 2006.
Ermont Eaubonnes and Argenteuil are in the northwest.



Minato ku said:


>


----------



## siamu maharaj

I thought all trains in France were TGVs!


----------



## Coccodrillo

Usually where there are high-speed lines there are no more conventional trains. And where there are no TGV, outside a few routes around Paris, there are only 3 or 4 trains a day.

Look at here: http://membres.multimania.fr/cartesferro/index_en.html


----------



## sarflonlad

hans280 said:


> The conventional railways in France are definitely not so great - with the possible exception of a few "priority lines" like Paris-Orleans-Limoges, etc. IMHO this reflects the fact that they have been starved of investment because of the development of the TGV network. If you look at comparable figures for railway investment relative to the population or GDP across Europe in the last 20-30 years then you get the following picture: two laggards have invested signficantly less than other countries, namely UK and my native Denmark. France is doing.... OK, but is definitely not above the middle group. - And this in the thick of a period where it spent more on HS trains than almost any other country.
> 
> Conclusion: the money spent on TGV lines were not "extra" budgetary allocations - they were whisked away from other forms of railway investment. We feel the consequences on many of the legacy lines. To some extent this is a deliberate policy. France is much more willing than most European nations to let parts of the country where the economic basis is crumbling depopulate, and governments make the point inter alia by turning of the tap of public funding for infrastructure. (In this respect I think France ressembles the US more than, say, Germany...) But we also feel it in the Parisian region that normally enjoys an automatically high priority in French policy. The suburban RER system that was developed to great acclaim in the 30 years following WW2 is beginning to crack badly. The reason is, again, that having put in place a good system that was fully operational around the early 1980s the authorities rested on their laurels and failed to undertake meaningful maintenance and follow-up investments.


I have to agree.

I have not found the regional train services in France to be anything to write home about. The TGV is excellent, and my mouth wets with jealousy. But whilst the UK failed to invest in an TGV network, it did invest in regional trains, track and infrastructure. A frequent and reliable timetable. The UK can boast more kilometres of train network running at 161kph+ than any other EU nation... despite having a smaller network in total - and despite having a majority diesel run network.

There is a clear gap between France TGV Gold Standard vs. The Rest.


----------



## thib8500

The quality of the regional network depends on... the region ! TER (regional network) in Lorraine or in Rhône-Alpes are quite good with very frequent and modern trains.


----------



## poshbakerloo

I think what we can see in France is also very similar for all these countries with 'world class' rail networks. I nice pretty HSR setup but then all the rest goes unseen!


----------



## KiwiGuy

On my three week trip to France last year and my first overseas trip I might add, I caught a variety of trains to various places. In the South, I caught a train (two deck) from Nice to Monaco and back and had the option of travelling all the way to Italy but most in the group voted against it. I also travelled from Lille Gare de Flandres to a village called Le Quesnoy using another two deck train. After the stay there, I caught another train to Douai where I then caught another train to Paris. All the trains except the train to Paris was two decks and the train to Paris used one of the older Alstom locos I think.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> If the timetable is announced with enough advance, and is then followed without delays, why should varying departuring times be a problem? Nobody has timetable books anymore, and it should be easy to check departure times on-line, on your smartphone etc. on a daily basis.


Symmetric, regular interval schedules are quite convenient. Both for the operator and the traveller.

The traveller doesn't have to memorize or consult timetables. I know that I just have to leave the office at a x:15 or x:45 (with X being any hour) to make it home with the least amount of fuss, regardless of whether it's morning or afternoon, whether it's Tuesday or Wednesday. It makes spur of the moment decisions to go somewhere a lot easier. it makes planning also easier. All long distance trains arrive and depart from the main railway stations in Switzerland at more or less the same times. So I know that anyone visiting me in the office will probably want to leave at x:15 or x:45 too...

It is also convenient for the operator. Symetric, fixed interval schedules mean also that trains will always cross at the same places and times. That means you can easily optimize your infrastructure to your timetable. Suppose you have a single track railway, and want to run 15 minute headways both way. Just construct the timetable as if your line was double track. Look where the timetable causes trains in opposing directions to meet. Build passing loops at these places, and you're done. In the region of Lausanne there is a commuter light railway that runs a train every 5 minutes in both directions on single track.

The Swiss railways have perfected the art of timetable making. They basically work out one hour, and repeat it throughout the day, every day. Based on the desired timetable decisions are made about what infrastructure to build. Travel times between major hubs are optimized so that trains arrive and depart the major hubs in all directions at the same time, making for short transfers. The system is very succesfull, no-one travels by train as often as the Swiss do.


----------



## K_

thib8500 said:


> The quality of the regional network depends on... the region ! TER (regional network) in Lorraine or in Rhône-Alpes are quite good with very frequent and modern trains.


And one of the reasons TER in Lorrain and Rhône Alpes is good (although it could be a lot better) is the proximity of Switzerland. SNCF is afraid that if they don't perform well here the regions might contract the network out to the SBB.


----------



## thib8500

No link between Switzerland and the performance of trains in Rhône-Alpes or Lorraine. SNCF is just an operator, so it has no influence on infrastructures.


----------



## Suburbanist

Well, there is no specific reason by which "symetric" rail schedules should be constructed around a period of 60min and not, say, 40, 70, 82 min. Trenitalia got rid of most of its 60-min interval schedules some time ago, and people adapted accordingly.

In our modern lives, we have iPhones full of apps, websites, SMS route info... there is just no need to stick to a system envised in the early 20th Century.


----------



## K_

thib8500 said:


> No link between Switzerland and the performance of trains in Rhône-Alpes or Lorraine. SNCF is just an operator, so it has no influence on infrastructures.


Well, SBB trains already run in the Alsace, and in Rhône Alpes. Not many, that is true. But it is quite interesting to not that trains out from Genève Eaux - Vives towards the Rhône Alpes region run in nice half-hourly intervals, something you don't see a lot in France..


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Well, there is no specific reason by which "symetric" rail schedules should be constructed around a period of 60min and not, say, 40, 70, 82 min. Trenitalia got rid of most of its 60-min interval schedules some time ago, and people adapted accordingly.


By riding the trains less probably... Personally I wouldn't consider commuting to work on anything that runs less than twice an hour (and my commute is 138 km, one way). I would take a car in this case. 



> In our modern lives, we have iPhones full of apps, websites, SMS route info... there is just no need to stick to a system envised in the early 20th Century.


There is a good reason to schedule all services around the same interval. And then the logical choice is to us 60 minutes. A allows you to know instantly when you're train back will be the moment you get off.
Not everybody has an iPhone. I do, and I still prefer Swiss schedules. The advantage of interval schedules is flexibility. I know that, regardless of where I intend to go to, I just have to be at the main station here either at xx:00 or xx:30. This makes life easy for me, but also for bus operators running buses to the main station. They just schedule their buses so that they arrive a bit before the hour (or half hour) and leave a bit after. Its great for people organizing a course or an event too.

The fact that trains not only run at hourly intervals in Switzerland, but also in Germany and Belgium means that I can leave at 7 am and be at my parents place 8 hours later at 3pm. Or levat a 9 am and be there at 5pm. And so on. Travel time is the same regardless of when I leave. It are things like that that have prompted me to get rid of my car five years ago.


----------



## thib8500

K_ said:


> Well, SBB trains already run in the Alsace, and in Rhône Alpes. Not many, that is true. But it is quite interesting to not that trains out from Genève Eaux - Vives towards the Rhône Alpes region run in nice half-hourly intervals, something you don't see a lot in France..


You can't compare a densely populated with many "big" cities country like Switzerland and France. And a 30 min period is not that rare in France. In Rhône-Alpes, many have a 20 min or a 15 min period.


----------



## Frogged

Regional trains are progressively being organised on hourly (half-hourly, etc.) slots. See this example from Aquitaine:
http://www.bordeaux-info.com/2008/07/18/le-cadencement-des-ter-aquitaine-sera-generalise-en-2010-et-lintermodalite-se-renforce/


----------



## sotavento

poshbakerloo said:


> I have taken normal SNCF intercity trains before (Paris-Perpignan I think). And honestly, I was disappointed. The last time I travelled that way was in 2006. It was refurbished, and done quite well, but the trains themselves where very backward. I think travelling on the WCML on a 390 or on the ECML on a 225 is much better.


^^ that would be the equivalent of travelling in a SNCF TGV ... :lol:


the equivalent of using a corail train in the UKwould be using a class 15x or 17x or something like that. :lol:


----------



## K_

Frogged said:


> Regional trains are progressively being organised on hourly (half-hourly, etc.) slots. See this example from Aquitaine:
> http://www.bordeaux-info.com/2008/07/18/le-cadencement-des-ter-aquitaine-sera-generalise-en-2010-et-lintermodalite-se-renforce/


I know they're doing that, but often it is done imperfectly, with still many exceptions to the patterns, holes in the schedules, suboptimal connections etc.
And first the long distance network should be done on a interval schedule, so dat the regional trains can be planned around them. That doesn't mean that all long distance trains must become hourly. France's population denstity is quite low in some areay, so two hourls for the Corail to Paris might be suficient. But by making it an exact two hours between trains planning the rest of the regional network becomes a lot easier.

And anyway, France is now doing this. They are still decades behind Switzerland or Germany in this respect.


----------



## eomer

L2 said:


> I've personally travelled on the line from Paris to Limoges (trains run to/from Brive) and didn't find it amazing. It was something called a Corail Teoz which did 160km/h so it was better than comparable Australian services, but that's not saying a lot.


It runs even at 200 km/h between the south of Paris and Vierzon but it's not so amazing.



L2 said:


> The timetable was very confusing to understand with all the local TERs thrown it and confusion about which trains run on what days of the week.


Understanding a SNCF's timetable is considered as a cleaverness test in French University...don't worry, even SNCF's agents are not ableto answer to that kind of question.



L2 said:


> The Austerlitz terminus in Paris was pretty ordinary too I thought. Didn't have the beggars of Gare du Nord but not a very impressive station.


Austerlitz is not the most prestigious train station in Paris...lol
It's a bit outdated and lost all of it prestigious trains (Aquitaine, Etendard, Capitol) when Paris-Bordeaux-Hendaye and Paris-Toulouse were replaced by TGV from Paris Montparnasse. Austerlitz go a great potential for the futur but should be rebuild... 



L2 said:


> Does anybody know if there are any plans to upgrade that line at all?


There are two main projects:
- A HSR between Poitiers and Limoges but I think it will be canceled soon (after Regional Elections in march)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Poitiers–Limoges

- a HSR Paris (Austerlitz)- Orly Airport - Orleans - Bourges - Lyon. TGV will run on existing (but upgraded) tracks to finish their journey to Limoges, Clermont Ferrand or St Etienne...I think this project is more interesting.


----------



## Minato ku

eomer said:


> Austerlitz is not the most prestigious train station in Paris...lol
> It's a bit outdated and lost all of it prestigious trains (Aquitaine, Etendard, Capitol) when Paris-Bordeaux-Hendaye and Paris-Toulouse were replaced by TGV from Paris Montparnasse. Austerlitz go a great potential for the futur but should be rebuild...


That's true Austerliz is least prestigious and least busy terminal of Paris (if we include Bercy).
It lost almost everything its prestigious and main intercity line except Paris Orleans Limoges, it lost its suburban traffic with the RER.
A signifant part of the main hall become a car park.

The district around Austerliz is not really attracting, the redevelopment of Paris rive Gauche area could help it but it is not enouth ambicious especially about shopping.
Saint Lazare by exemple is maybe dark (far more than Austerlitz even before the big renovation work), ugly and don't have really important intercity lines but it does have an important suburban traffic, the station is well located in Paris CDB near some of main shopping district.

Anyway Austerlitz has a great potientiel there are big renovation plan, new line proposed to serve this station expecially to help the crowded Gare de Lyon.


----------



## Augusto

Minato ku said:


> That's true Austerliz is least prestigious and least busy terminal of Paris (if we include Bercy).
> It lost almost everything its prestigious and main intercity line except Paris Orleans Limoges, it lost its suburban traffic with the RER.


With the exception of Elipsos, the overnight Paris-Madrid/Barcelona service: 
http://www.elipsos.com


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> Well, there is no specific reason by which "symetric" rail schedules should be constructed around a period of 60min and not, say, 40, 70, 82 min. Trenitalia got rid of most of its 60-min interval schedules some time ago, and people adapted accordingly.
> 
> In our modern lives, we have iPhones full of apps, websites, SMS route info... there is just no need to stick to a system envised in the early 20th Century.


That's exactly why Italy has 10 times the popolation of Switzerland, but only 3 times the volume of passenger traffic. Swiss federal railways carry daily more or less the same number of trains of Trenitalia (9.000 versus 12.000).

trains*km/inhabitant: 17 CH, 4,7 IT, 6,6 FR
passengers*km: 15 CH, 46 IT, 82 FR


----------



## takini

http://i46.tinypic.com/2lm6r0m.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/efmagl.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/35luijl.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/2v96kc1.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/11qmp2f.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/es7txh.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/4jxcwp.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/350mq3a.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/339n9c9.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2myanx0.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/vhxi4p.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/xfq3gh.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/nl61xv.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/9fptnm.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/x1kfmc.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/okv31v.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/f36ibt.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/2n8rgyc.jpg

www.railserbia.net


----------



## SimFox

^^


----------



## Minato ku

Paris Saint Lazare


----------



## thib8500

More about the new 2 floors trains in France that are to be in service in 2013 : http://www.bombardier.com/fr/bombar...ques-de-presse/details?docID=0901260d800eed1e


----------



## joseph1951

Suburbanist said:


> Anyway, hourly timetables are dumb in the sense it requires rolling stock to be allocated exactly the same all over the day. One of the reasons to break interval-spaced timetables it to use limited rolling stock in different services so you provide a so-so service in two routes instead of abbandoning one in favor of other.
> 
> With modern optmization software, you can easily, with a notebook, enter the data and let the computer optimize timetables taking every constrain into consideration. It will be a non-intuitive timetable, but Operations Research solid science has the answer to build things like timetables that minimize connecting time, increase availability of daily services etc.
> 
> Problem is when such an optimized timetable clash with students feeling entitled to sleep 45 min more so then will not arrive at inconvenient times in their universities nearby.
> 
> With the high-speed line between Bologna and Milano, there is no reason for that much IC services, just take an AV service and then connect from the opposite side with a regional train if you want, say, go from Milano to Reggio Emilia. It will cost a lot, but it is feasible, I've done once, worked perfecly.


Actually the only "High Speed Service" on the Milan-Reggio Emilia journey is an "ES AV" from Milan to Reggio E, calling at Piacenza, Parma, etc. It takes 1h and 28 minutes for the journey. 

This service is only available in late evening. Furthermore this "HS service" runs only on the classical Milan-Bologna line, as do all the other Regional, IC and EScity services. 
At the moment between Milan and Bologna there are no real HST services calling on the intermediate towns along the line, which run over the HSL .


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ This unique train serves to link the medium sized cities between Milan and Bologna with Rome, reching it on the morning and leaving in afternoon, just like the Melun-Marseille train do. It starts from Milan just because the depot is there.


----------



## Minato ku




----------



## Minato ku

(Gare du Nord - Luzarches)
Z50000


----------



## reda1306

y a personne qui peut m'aider en m'envoyant des photos de trains sntf?? merci d'avance


----------



## Gadiri

There is the algerian thread here :
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=453090&page=8

Please lock this thread.


----------



## Minato ku

Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines - Montigny-le-Bretonneux








This station is served by the RER C, the Transilien N to Montparnasse and the Transilien U to La Défense.













































RER C


























Transilien U to la Défense









TER (regional trains) passing thru the station


----------



## Minato ku

Gare de l'Est


----------



## Shezan

I think Paris has to improve and renew the RER service to CDG Airport


----------



## Minato ku

It is not the good thread for this question.
PARIS | RER

Anyway the northern part of the RER B is curently in heavy renovation, 
The trains of the RER B will be refurbished.



Minato ku said:


> Metropole


----------



## manrush

Would it be accurate to refer to Transilien as the TER de Ile de France?


----------



## mopc

Very diverse system, are the trains scheduled or interval-based?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ Both it depend of the line.



manrush said:


> Would it be accurate to refer to Transilien as the TER de Ile de France?


Yes and no.
The Ile de France is only one metropolitan area (Paris) unlike other region.
The Transilien serve more as suburban commuter services than Regional train.


----------



## poshbakerloo

The RER is pretty good, I've used it a few times


----------



## Minato ku

A Z6400 departing of La Défense bound to Saint Lazare terminal.
















A Z2N double decker trains passing near Stade de France Saint Denis (RER station) bound to Gare du Nord.
















A B 82500 passing through Noisy le Sec from Gare de l'Est to Provins.
We see the difference between the old (blue) and new livery (red).


----------



## Minato ku

Z 5300 (also called "Petit Gris" and know as the worst suburban rolling stock) in Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines


----------



## Minato ku

The inside of Saint Lazare terminal station 
By 2011, the interior will be rebuilt, including better connections with the métro and RER, a shopping mall...


----------



## aliesperet

I recently read in the parisien that the p'tits gris would be replaced by Avanto S70 trains on the Esbly-Crecy line. How is that going? I've got a few questions:

1. Is it true (i can't imagine that because no one uses the line)
2. Are the trains new?
3. Are they already there? 
4. Will there be any construction works to increase capacity on the line?

Thanks already!!


----------



## Minato ku

Honestly I don't have more info than le Parisien newspaper or Wikipedia.
The ligne Esbly - Crécy-la-Chapelle is not a very important line, it is used by only 850 passengers per day.

1. Is it true ? I think that it is.
2. Are the trains new? No they come from the T4 tram train line where there are too many.
3. Are they already there? Not on the Esbly - Crécy-la-Chapelle line but I think they are in Noisy le Sec atelier where are parked the Avanto S70 of the T4.
4. Will there be any construction works to increase capacity on the line ? I don't know.


----------



## Minato ku

Off topic post from the Paris RER thread 



(fabrizio) said:


> I know I'm off-topic since this thread is named "Métro" and I'm talking about RER, so I beg your pardon for asking this: have the new Bombardier Spacium trainsets already been delivered to SNCF? Did anybody have the chance to board one of them to see how they look like? thanks in advance.





Minato ku said:


> You means the NAT or Z50000.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This train doesn't and will not run on the RER network but on other suburban lines.
> There are already 10 train running on the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Line Paris Nord - Luzarches)
> 
> Here the thread for the non RER suburban train.
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=480198





(fabrizio) said:


> Oh, alright. I didn't know it wasn't supposed to ride the RER lines, I've read on a newspaper that SNCF was planning to use it on the Ile de France routes and that automatically read "RER" to me!  Bad luck, 'cause I really wanted to try it to and fro CDG.


----------



## Minato ku

With a basic "Paris Visite" card (zone 1 - 3), you can use this train between Gare du Nord and Gare d'Épinay - Villetaneuse. 
Anyway this line don't serve CDG airport.

A good but little trip use if you want to use this train, take this line to go in Saint Denis , unfortunately it is only one station but the distance between gare du nord and Saint Denis is quite long: 6 km.
In Saint Denis you can visit the Basilica (where are burried French kings), the busy center and you could go back to inner with the metro line 13.

The non RER suburban train are on the overground platform of the Gare du Nord, follow the sign (Train de Banlieue).
The







is a whole network, not a basic single line.
Only the services bound to Luzarches have Z50000 train.
All services stop at Saint Denis station.


----------



## (fabrizio)

Minato ku said:


> With a basic "Paris Visite" card (zone 1 - 3), you can use this train between Gare du Nord and Gare d'Épinay - Villetaneuse.
> Anyway this line don't serve CDG airport.
> 
> A good but little trip use if you want to use this train, take this line to go in Saint Denis , unfortunately it is only one station but the distance between gare du nord and Saint Denis is quite long: 6 km.
> In Saint Denis you can visit the Basilica (where are burried French kings), the busy center and you could go back to inner with the metro line 13.
> 
> The non RER suburban train are on the overground platform of the Gare du Nord, follow the sign (Train de Banlieue).
> The
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is a whole network, not a basic single line.
> Only the services bound to Luzarches have Z50000 train.
> All services stop at Saint Denis station.


Thank you very much Minato ku, you've been really helpful!


----------



## Minato ku

Cab ride of BB27300 between Poissy and Houilles-Carrières sur Seine in western suburbs.












A ride between Pont Cardinet and La Defense (western inner suburbs)


----------



## bytebyte

How big is Paris subway?


----------



## Justme

bytebyte said:


> How big is Paris subway?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=paris+metro+wikipedia


----------



## Abhishek901

Nice one :lol:


----------



## Minato ku

Clamart

























A TER (Regional train) coming from Western France (Centre and Pays de la Loire regions)

















Suburban train bound to Montparnasse.


----------



## [email protected]

Does someone you know the logic of the Transilien numbering scheme ? 
For example why isn't there a line I between line H and line K ?


----------



## Hugues75

Because "I" can be understand as "Information Point".


----------



## [email protected]

Then I'm not sure what O, Q and S can be confused with. :dunno:


----------



## Hugues75

Q, because in french, Q is said as "cul", which means "arse" !
O, too similar with 0 (zero).
S, well... I don't see.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I may be confused with 1


----------



## aliesperet

But you could also ask if no one confuses line P with _Paris_


----------



## Minato ku

Construction of a new hall in Paris Gare de Lyon


----------



## manrush

I wonder, what is the exact purpose of the Grande ceinture Ouest branch?


----------



## sekelsenmat

Hello, I'm interrested in consulting with someone from France on a topic =)

Previously I imagined that investing at a large, medium speed train network would be more effective then focusing in high-speed lines, because the medium speed trains would be cheaper to ride, and allow people to go to more places, allowing them to live without a car, therefore bringing more ridership. But when comparing the ridership figures from Germany and France, I see that France has had a huge growth in ridership in the last 10 years thanks to a huge growth in ridership in the high-speed lines, although in Germany you can travel cheaper (with a Bahn card for example), in a network which reaches more places, but it is slower then in france.

How do people in France see this? Is the huge surge in HSR ridership essentially filled with business people who don't care about the high ticket prices? Or do people travelling for leisure also enjoy the fast ride despite high costs? Or am I wrong and you can also get cheap tickets somehow?


----------



## Attus

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> Ah, the Transilien... The suburban train system of Paris, all right? RER is another suburban train system that covers Paris like a subway.


Er ... it is a little bit more complex, but yes, basically it's right.


----------



## AlexNL

This month, International Rail Journal has an article about the new regional trains for the French trains, the Régiolis project. The trains will be built by Alstom and are of the Coradia Polyvalent type. SNCF has signed a framework agreement with Alstom for the delivery of up to a 1000 trains... which is a huge amount.

Anyway, here's the article.


















The original pages can be found in the IRJ online edition, March 2011, but I snapped screenshots because I consider the Flash reader app to be horrible.


----------



## aliesperet

Thank you for the article!


----------



## Minato ku

I found a video of the Z50000 interior by night.





Unlike what say the title of the video, this train does not run on the RER B.



AlexNL said:


> This month, International Rail Journal has an article about the new regional trains for the French trains, the Régiolis project. The trains will be built by Alstom and are of the Coradia Polyvalent type. SNCF has signed a framework agreement with Alstom for the delivery of up to a 1000 trains... which is a huge amount.
> 
> Anyway, here's the article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The original pages can be found in the IRJ online edition, March 2011, but I snapped screenshots because I consider the Flash reader app to be horrible.


Thank you !
As I said earlier, France had a boom of the regional rail traffic in the last decade.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ Externally this one reminds me the Stadler Flirt.


----------



## manrush

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Externally this one reminds me the Stadler Flirt.


Speaking of which, I wonder if French regulations allow for the purchase of off-the-shelf rolling stock, such as the Stadler FLIRT, the Siemens Desiro ML or the Bombardier Talent 2.


----------



## Minato ku

Paris suburban train







Cab ride between Saint Lazare and La Défense


----------



## AlexNL

manrush said:


> Speaking of which, I wonder if French regulations allow for the purchase of off-the-shelf rolling stock, such as the Stadler FLIRT, the Siemens Desiro ML or the Bombardier Talent 2.


I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. However, SNCF has always ordered trains from Alstom, so it's unlikely to change.


----------



## Minato ku

ICE 3 approching Gare de l'Est


----------



## enarque illumine

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Externally this one reminds me the Stadler Flirt.


Up! +1


----------



## Suburbanist

Minato ku said:


> ICE 3 approching Gare de l'Est


Such a nice and modern train doesn't fit those terrible, outdated station approaches at Gare de l'Est (the problem repeats with Gare de Lyon). They should build tunnels on the approaches of those stations and demolish these old, outdated bridges - or at least leave them only to commuter rail traffic.

Indeed, as I usually say, France should build a deep underground, avant-grade, minimalist station near Paris Bercy station, and build tunnels so that any HS train reaching Paris doesn't mix with local/commuter/regional traffic at all. There is nothing better than arrive at a major city via underground tracks that are modern all the way, instead of century-old tracks surrounded by derelict buildings, graffiti and very low speeds. 

However, in the case of Paris, that would be also a tremendous boost to intra-European high-speed traffic for those who think it is ok to stay 7h in a train instead of 2h in a plane. Paris is the center, the critical nod of high-speed travel in Europe, but as there are 3/4 termini of high-speed services (some insist to consider Gare du Nord and Gare de L'Est as a single station although there is no tunnel or overpass linking them hno, what would be otherwise a "passable" rail option like London-Lyon, Bruxelles-Genéve or Amsterdam-Orleans includes a shoddy, perilous and uncomfortable journey though Paris Metro.


----------



## Attus

AlexNL said:


> I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. However, SNCF has always ordered trains from Alstom, so it's unlikely to change.


I, too, see no reasons but it is a fact that French authorities refused for SBB Flirts of Regio-S-Bahn Basel to enter ito France...


----------



## Suissetralia

The train looks very nice, though, and designed exclusively as a regional train for french regions, so anyway I think it would have been chosen as the winner tender over other options in equal conditions. In particular, placing the engines (electric/diesel) on the roof is a very good solution which the Stalder FLIRT does not have.


----------



## thun

^^
I'm not too sure about that. I could imagine that putting the engines on the roof can cause issues regarding vibrations and hence comfort. And it will certainly result in a higher centre of mass and the need for a stronger framework, i. e. a higher net weight.


----------



## Suissetralia

thun said:


> ^^
> I'm not too sure about that. I could imagine that putting the engines on the roof can cause issues regarding vibrations and hence comfort. And it will certainly result in a higher centre of mass and the need for a stronger framework, i. e. a higher net weight.


_"Alstom has employed a MAN diesel engine which, together with the alternator, is fixed on an elastic mounting to the frame of the power pack. Between the power pack and the roof there is a second damping layer to further supress vibration. *Alstom says that roof-mounted engines reduce interior vibration because most noise is emitted from the upper surface of the engine*. Furthermore, the mounting of electrical equipment on the roof has allowed the designers to do away with most feeder pillars, another source of vibration and noise"_

That's on the posted article. 

I agree with the higher centre of mass, but this is a specifically-designed regional train, not a high-speed TGV, so that's not worrisome.


----------



## aliesperet

Paris suburban train







Cab ride between Conflans Saint Honorine and Argenteuil


----------



## Gadiri

Suburbanist said:


> Such a nice and modern train doesn't fit those terrible, outdated station approaches at Gare de l'Est (the problem repeats with Gare de Lyon). They should build tunnels on the approaches of those stations and demolish these old, outdated bridges - or at least leave them only to commuter rail traffic.
> 
> Indeed, as I usually say, France should build a deep underground, avant-grade, minimalist station near Paris Bercy station, and build tunnels so that any HS train reaching Paris doesn't mix with local/commuter/regional traffic at all. There is nothing better than arrive at a major city via underground tracks that are modern all the way, instead of century-old tracks surrounded by derelict buildings, graffiti and very low speeds.
> 
> However, in the case of Paris, that would be also a tremendous boost to intra-European high-speed traffic for those who think it is ok to stay 7h in a train instead of 2h in a plane.* Paris is the center, the critical nod of high-speed travel in Europe, but as there are 3/4 termini of high-speed services (some insist to consider Gare du Nord and Gare de L'Est as a single station although there is no tunnel or overpass linking them *hno, what would be otherwise a "passable" rail option like London-Lyon, Bruxelles-Genéve or Amsterdam-Orleans includes a shoddy, perilous and uncomfortable journey though Paris Metro.


Only London and Madrid have a such link between stations :


----------



## Momo1435

Suburbanist said:


> What would be otherwise a "passable" rail option like London-Lyon, Bruxelles-Genéve or Amsterdam-Orleans includes a shoddy, perilous and uncomfortable journey though Paris Metro.


The LGV Interconnexion Est is already used for these kind of services. 

But that's past Paris, passengers can't profit from a quick change of trains in Paris that has much more services. 

~~~~

About the new Régiolis sets, it does look like the Coradia Polyvalent is developed from the Coradia Lirex. That train was a development around the year 2000 by Alstom LHB GmbH, now Alstom Transport Deutschland for regional services in Germany. The first order for this type of train was for the suburban services around Stockholm. In 2008 the DB also received the 1st trains based on this development, but these are branded Coradia Continental. All of these types have the equipment on the roof just like the new French trains. 

It does look like Alstom only gave it a new name and a French look to make it appear that it's actually a new French development when in reality it's much more international.

btw, I can't say that I appreciate the AGV look on this regional train. I rather see the Stadler Flirt and then especially the new sets for the Norwegian railways.


----------



## pietje01

Gadiri said:


> Only London and Madrid have a such link between stations :


You're forgetting Brussels, where there are 3 parallel, double track tunnels between the North and the South (midi) station. See Wikipedia
Between them there are 2 smaller stations and the Central station, which is the busiest station in Belgium, but only has 6 tracks.:banana:

If you'd suggest the same project now, it wouldn't be built ever.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> However, in the case of Paris, that would be also a tremendous boost to intra-European high-speed traffic for those who think it is ok to stay 7h in a train instead of 2h in a plane. Paris is the center, the critical nod of high-speed travel in Europe, but as there are 3/4 termini of high-speed services (some insist to consider Gare du Nord and Gare de L'Est as a single station although there is no tunnel or overpass linking them hno, what would be otherwise a "passable" rail option like London-Lyon, Bruxelles-Genéve or Amsterdam-Orleans includes a shoddy, perilous and uncomfortable journey though Paris Metro.


The SNCF has decided to solve this problem in much more economical way. There are allready "intersector" TGVs, like Lille - Dijon or Brussel - Marseille. The idea is to have a integrated interval schedule for those services, with interchanges between services in places like Lille, CDG, Dijon and Lyon. The Paris terminals would thus only be used by people actually having Paris as destination.


----------



## Railfan

Abhishek901 said:


> It is almost impossible to have a wheeled train commercially running at 600 km/hr. There are many more factors which play a major role at high speed such as friction between rail and wheels, friction between pantograph and overhead wires. MagLev is better suited for such speeds.


I never talking about a commercial speed 600 km / h, but to break the world speed record, whether to 600km / h would be faster than the maglev train in Japan MLX-01


----------



## Railfan

To get commercial at a speed of 600km/h it is best use maglev technology


----------



## AlexNL

Once the world rail speed record is broken, Alstom will break it again. It's of utmost importance to them for, among others, marketing purposes: "Alstom is the leader in high speed rail".


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Maybe, only maybe, one day AnsaldoBreda will break the World's speed record for track-based vehicle.


----------



## Railfan




----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Maybe, only maybe, one day AnsaldoBreda will break the World's speed record for track-based vehicle.


They are more likely to break the world record for late delivery first...


----------



## hhouse

Video from the new LGV Rhin-Rhone line: http://www.lgvrhinrhone.tv/video/premiere-rame-tgv-20-juin-2011-144

Inauguration: 11th December 2011


----------



## alserrod

Which "new" TGV connections are available with this line?

Which are next works on network?


----------



## 437.001

^^ 

 Quickly answered: Lyon-Mâcon-Chalon sur Saône-Dijon (start of LGV)-Besançon-Mulhouse (end of LGV)-Strasbourg/Basel and further away from each end. 

Next thing: Lorraine TGV-Strasbourg (final part of LGV Est). Construction work started.

Connection between Avignon-TGV and Avignon-Centre (only for regional TER trains, but nevertheless VERY important). Construction work started too. 

Then Montpellier-Nimes... and then Tours-Bordeaux and Le Mans-Sablé sur Sarthe et Le Mans-Laval-Rennes. Not yet started, getting late.

And then... other projects.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> Connection between Avignon-TGV and Avignon-Centre (only for regional TER trains, but nevertheless VERY important). Construction work started too.


It seems that finally some sanity is breaking out at SNCF...

What are they going to do? Looking at the station I thought that the best option would have been to build a new station where the old line to Marseille crosses the LGV, about a km east of Avignon TGV, and have a kine of people mover, or rolling carpet between both stations.


----------



## XAN_

hhouse said:


> Video from the new LGV Rhin-Rhone line: http://www.lgvrhinrhone.tv/video/premiere-rame-tgv-20-juin-2011-144
> 
> Inauguration: 11th December 2011


Great. I suppose all Lyria services will be rerouted to this LGV?
And that great new livery (white) - is it limited to 1 trainset? or that would be all new double-deckers?


----------



## hhouse

XAN_ said:


> Great. I suppose all Lyria services will be rerouted to this LGV?


Yes, all Lyria services from Zurich will run via this route (six trains/day&direction). So from the 11th December all Lyria services will start/end in the Gare de Lyon in Paris.



> And that great new livery (white) - is it limited to 1 trainset? or that would be all new double-deckers?


I think it's limited to one trainset, but I don't know it for sure.
In the french wikipedia article you can also find two pictures of the trainset: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Rhin-Rhône

The trainset with the special livery reached 359,2 km/h on the new line during a test: http://www.macommune.info/actualite...e-avec-une-pointe-a-359-2-km-heure-21122.html

Interesting private blog about the construction of the new line: http://tgvrhinrhone.wordpress.com/

The new line will serve the following routes:

(Frankfurt) - Strasbourg - Lyon - Marseille/Montpellier
(Zurich) - Mulhouse - Paris
Mulhouse - Lille (1x day)

The exact timetable you can find here: http://www.sncf.com/en_EN/html/medi...Timetabling/MD0305_20110107-Read-article.html


----------



## Suburbanist

hhouse said:


> The exact timetable you can find here: http://www.sncf.com/en_EN/html/medi...Timetabling/MD0305_20110107-Read-article.html


This site is dated as from 2007, so I think it wouldn't be a reliable source.


----------



## hhouse

Suburbanist said:


> This site is dated as from 2007, so I think it wouldn't be a reliable source.


hno:

If you'd clicked on a pdf, then you would have seen, that it's from the beginning of this year (=2011).
11/01/07 = year/month/day

And also what would be the sense to publish exact timetables in 2011 already in 2007, when it's not even save, that the line will be ready then? :bash:


----------



## Suburbanist

hhouse said:


> hno:
> 
> If you'd clicked on a pdf, then you would have seen, that it's from the beginning of this year (=2011).
> 11/01/07 = year/month/day
> 
> And also what would be the sense to publish exact timetables in 2011 already in 2007, when it's not even save, that the line will be ready then? :bash:


Sorry, you are right. I mistook 11/01/07 on the American format as the site was written in British English.


----------



## mcarling

437.001 said:


> And then... other projects.


In my opinion, the two most important "other projects" are:
* Paris - Orleans - Limoges - Toulouse
* Paris - Amiens - Calais


----------



## Suburbanist

mcarling said:


> In my opinion, the two most important "other projects" are:
> * Paris - Orleans - Limoges - Toulouse
> * Paris - Amiens - Calais


What about a project to link Clermont-Ferrand?


----------



## Hubert Pollak

hhouse said:


> So from the 11th December all Lyria services will start/end in the Gare de Lyon in Paris.[/url]
> 
> TGV Lyria ordered new stock and shorten travel times. There was some rumors that they will start serve some new destinations in Germany. Have you got some details?


----------



## Suburbanist

I was thinking... Does SNCF plans to re-route Paris-Italy TGV trains to a new route via Switzerland (Paris-Genève-Brig-Domodossola-Milano)?


----------



## hhouse

Hubert Pollak said:


> TGV Lyria ordered new stock and shorten travel times. There was some rumors that they will start serve some new destinations in Germany. Have you got some details?


TGV Lyria is the brand for TGVs between France and Switzerland...
Alleo is the joint venture for the TGVs (and ICEs) between France and Germany. But it's not as known as Lyria, they don't even have a up-to-date website (www.alleo.eu) and no english wikipedia article (only german and french).
From the 11th December on, there will be one new TGV between Frankfurt and Marseille, but the travel time is to long at the moment - according to this post: http://ice-treff.de/index.php?id=128337 it will take 7 hours and 45 minutes with 11 stops and the arrival at 10 p.m. is also really unattractive!
But what I know the travel time on the route Strasbourg - Lyon will decrease by the end of 2012, when some works in Mulhouse are finished.



Suburbanist said:


> I was thinking... Does SNCF plans to re-route Paris-Italy TGV trains to a new route via Switzerland (Paris-Genève-Brig-Domodossola-Milano)?


I don't know, if that would make sense... Paris - Milano via Geneve would take around seven hours (3:05 for Paris-Geneve + 3:53 for Geneve-Milano) so it's not really shorter than the trip via the French Alps and the TGVs aren't even using the high speed line between Torino and Milano. If they would use it, the journey would take only around 6 hours and 15 minutes.
Also from the economic view it wouldn't make much sense to use the route via Switzerland.


----------



## cle

As the new Eurostar trains are proposed to run at 320 km/h, I'm assuming this is on LGV Nord - is it ready for running at 320km/h? In terms of signalling, pathing different speeds etc....

How much time realistically would this save on a trip from London to Paris? It's 6.25% faster - if the train did a flat hour at top speed it would save 3.75 mins. Is the acceleration better maybe? As I've heard that journey times would be better - bad journalism?


----------



## K_

flierfy said:


> As an objective observer you might be right. But if you were the mayor of Amiens you'd say something else.


What would I say if I were the mayor of Amiens?


----------



## Minato ku

Amiens is quite upset to be forgotten by the TGV.
Today it is faster to do Paris - Lille than Amiens - Paris or Amiens - Lille. 
The train journey between Paris and Amiens is slower today than it was in the 1960's.


----------



## K_

Minato ku said:


> Amiens is quite upset to be forgotten by the TGV.
> Today it is faster to do Paris - Lille than Amiens - Paris or Amiens - Lille.
> The train journey between Paris and Amiens is slower today than it was in the 1960's.


That is indeed a problem with the SNCF approach to high speed. SNCF builds lines without considering the overall network.
But I don't think Amiens warrants a new LGV. There is no reason, except SNCF short sightedness why Paris - Amiens would have to be slower now than it is in the 60ies. With a few incremental improvements a trip time of under one hour, and an hourly service would be possible.


----------



## mcarling

*Paris - Amiens - Calais*

"Will a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line be needed in the future?" seems to me a non-serious question. The fact that LGV Nord Paris - Lille is headed toward a capacity shortfall in the 2020s suffices, in my opinion, to answer the question of Paris - Amiens - Calais. Reducing Paris - London trip times to two hours is an added benefit without which the line is justified anyway.

In my opinion, the serious question, for which there is room for divergence of opinion, is _*when*_ will a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line be needed.

If we take it as a premise that there will someday be a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line (I believe we should, both for the reasons above and because the government are planning to build it), then it is not clear whether or not money spent on the existing Paris - Amiens line to reduce trip times would be a good investment or not.


----------



## K_

mcarling said:


> "Will a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line be needed in the future?" seems to me a non-serious question. The fact that LGV Nord Paris - Lille is headed toward a capacity shortfall in the 2020s suffices, in my opinion, to answer the question of Paris - Amiens - Calais.


But is this line headed toward a capacity shortfall? 
Currently the line sees:
* Lille - Paris Nord hourly.
* Brussel - Paris Nord twice per hour
* London - Paris Nord more or less hourly
* Lille - CDG and beyond about hourly. 

So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity. Are you saying that traffic will increase fivefold in just a decade on that line?


----------



## mcarling

K_ said:


> So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity.


How do you figure that you can run 25 trains per hour at 300 km/h?


----------



## Luli Pop

with Chinese laser speed-counter the minimun is 5 minutes, right?


----------



## Minato ku

A train every five minutes means 12 tph. 
The max on the LGV Nord is 10 tph.



K_ said:


> So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity. Are you saying that traffic will increase fivefold in just a decade on that line?


There is more trains than that running on the LGV Nord.


----------



## flierfy

K_ said:


> But is this line headed toward a capacity shortfall?
> Currently the line sees:
> * Lille - Paris Nord hourly.
> * Brussel - Paris Nord twice per hour
> * London - Paris Nord more or less hourly
> * Lille - CDG and beyond about hourly.
> 
> So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity. Are you saying that traffic will increase fivefold in just a decade on that line?


You forget about the political dimension. To build the LGV Nord in on straight line from Paris to Lille was a political decision. And now Amiens wants the same for itself. Furthermore 5 services to Paris per hour is more than enough for Lille they might say. So at least one those should be rerouted to Amiens.


----------



## Momo1435

Looking at tomorrow mornings timetable. 

TGV Paris-Lille: twice per hour
Thalys: twice per hour
Eurostar: once every hour
TGV CDG - Lille/Brussel: twice every hour 
TGV - Paris - Arras: Once every 2 hours

That's already 7-8 trains per hour, with peaks to 9 trains per hour.

With a capacity of 10 trains there's not that much room for more trains. But there's still room to increase the frequency on the line and to use more TGV Duplex sets, that's more realistic then a complete new line at the moment. 

A new line from Paris to Lyon should have a bigger priority right now since the capacity problems on the Sud-Est are more urgent.


----------



## Luli Pop

I edit for searching references


----------



## mcarling

Momo1435 said:


> A new line from Paris to Lyon should have a bigger priority right now since the capacity problems on the Sud-Est are more urgent.


In fact the French government plan to start the 2nd Paris - Lyon line before the Paris - Amiens - Calais line.


----------



## Minato ku

Paris Saint Lazare x25


----------



## K_

mcarling said:


> How do you figure that you can run 25 trains per hour at 300 km/h?


I did make the wrong assumption regarding current theoretical capacity on the LGV Nord, which is a train every 3 minutes. That makes 20 tph, but to keep the timetable stable only 15 tph are really useable. However, with a train distance of 2 minutes you can run up to 30 tph in theory, 25 tph in practice. I would think that resignalling the line would be a lot cheaper than building a new one...


----------



## K_

Momo1435 said:


> Looking at tomorrow mornings timetable.
> 
> TGV Paris-Lille: twice per hour
> Thalys: twice per hour
> Eurostar: once every hour
> TGV CDG - Lille/Brussel: twice every hour
> TGV - Paris - Arras: Once every 2 hours
> 
> That's already 7-8 trains per hour, with peaks to 9 trains per hour.
> 
> With a capacity of 10 trains there's not that much room for more trains.


But currently capacity is 15 tph.


----------



## mcarling

K_ said:


> But currently capacity is 15 tph.


Source?


----------



## K_

mcarling said:


> Source?


The busiest LGV is the one to Lyon, with maximum 12 tph. That one uses TVM300, which allows 5 minutes between trains. The LGV Nord uses TVM430, which allows 3 minutes between trains, so theoretical it would have a capacity of 20 tph. However, you do want some buffer, so 15 tph is practical.
12 tph on the LGV Sud-Est is at the limit, which is why SNCF doesn't run 12 tph all day on that line, or they could never recover from delays. SNCF does have plans to upgrade the line to 15 tph over the next couple of years, and to 25 tph over the next decade.

For 25tph + buffer you would need headways of 2 minutes, which is complex, but feaseable, and certainly cheaper than building a new line. (However, building a new line via an other route has advantages too...)

edit: this page has the specs for the tgv signalling systems.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/signals.html


----------



## mcarling

K_ said:


> The busiest LGV is the one to Lyon, with maximum 12 tph. That one uses TVM300, which allows 5 minutes between trains. The LGV Nord uses TVM430, which allows 3 minutes between trains, so theoretical it would have a capacity of 20 tph. However, you do want some buffer, so 15 tph is practical.
> 12 tph on the LGV Sud-Est is at the limit, which is why SNCF doesn't run 12 tph all day on that line, or they could never recover from delays. SNCF does have plans to upgrade the line to 15 tph over the next couple of years, and to 25 tph over the next decade.
> 
> For 25tph + buffer you would need headways of 2 minutes, which is complex, but feaseable, and certainly cheaper than building a new line. (However, building a new line via an other route has advantages too...)
> 
> edit: this page has the specs for the tgv signalling systems.
> http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/signals.html


Thanks for that!

Of course, the eventual capacity limitation of LGV Nord is not the only reason to build LGV Paris - Amiens - Calais.


----------



## mcarling

*LGV Bretagne financing agreement signed*

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/lgv-bretagne-financing-agreement-signed.html

This will run from Le Mans to Rennes, reducing Paris - Rennes times by 40 minutes.

Fair use excerpts:

"An agreement confirming the public financing package for LGV Bretagne - Pays de la Loire was signed in Rennes on July 12 ...."

"Major works are expected to start in 2012 and be completed by the end of 2016."


----------



## Minato ku

Evacuation of a TGV in 2001


----------



## JoFMO

I don't believe in the usefulness of a line Paris-Amiens-Calais. It does not offer enough relief for the Paris-Lille line since it only takes away the couple of Eurostar trains.
It would be much wiser to four-track the busiest section from Vemars (near CDG) to Croisilles (branch to Arras). 
To give Amiens better access to Paris, which is a fair ask, they should upgrade the line Amiens-Tergniers and build a curve to the LGV at Chaulnes.

To speed up trains to London they could operate the 3rd and 4th track with 3xxkm/h without getting problems because of too many trains with a different performance curve on the same track. 
A south-eastern bypass of Lille between Carvin and Armentiere could shorten the route to Calais by 20km and also bypass the 220km/h speed restriction throught Lille Europe station.


----------



## mcarling

JoFMO said:


> I don't believe in the usefulness of a line Paris-Amiens-Calais. It does not offer enough relief for the Paris-Lille line since it only takes away the couple of Eurostar trains.
> It would be much wiser to four-track the busiest section from Vemars (near CDG) to Croisilles (branch to Arras).
> To give Amiens better access to Paris, which is a fair ask, they should upgrade the line Amiens-Tergniers and build a curve to the LGV at Chaulnes.
> 
> To speed up trains to London they could operate the 3rd and 4th track with 3xxkm/h without getting problems because of too many trains with a different performance curve on the same track.
> A south-eastern bypass of Lille between Carvin and Armentiere could shorten the route to Calais by 20km and also bypass the 220km/h speed restriction throught Lille Europe station.


Your proposal would cost more than half what the planned LGV Picardie (Paris - Amiens - Calais) line would cost and provide less than half the benefit.


----------



## Dobbo

I think that the LGV Picardie could be an important part in making services as Lyon-London (or further north in the UK and vice versa in France) viable.

Would thay save more than the 20 minutes billed from London to Paris if they run at 350-400kph? (i.e. similar speeds to the proposed HS2 in the UK?)


----------



## K_

Dobbo said:


> I think that the LGV Picardie could be an important part in making services as Lyon-London (or further north in the UK and vice versa in France) viable.
> 
> Would thay save more than the 20 minutes billed from London to Paris if they run at 350-400kph? (i.e. similar speeds to the proposed HS2 in the UK?)


There is a way of shaving 20 minutes of London to Paris that doesn't involve any expensive infrastructure: Get rid of the silly check in and security theatre. That would make direct trains from London to other places on the continent immediately viable.


----------



## Dobbo

Okay - fair point.

But if we were looking at infrastructure improvements only?


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## alserrod

Which are, currently, lines under construction in France?


----------



## mcarling

If I recall correctly, the 20 minute expected reduction in Paris - London times when the LGV Picardie (Paris - Amiens - Calais) opens is based on a planned maximum speed of 320km/h. If the line would operate at 350km/h then, of course, the time savings would be greater than 20 minutes. 

Either way, London - Paris times would be under 2 hours, making rail even more competitive with flying. Air passengers between Paris and London would probably be limited to those with connecting flights at one end or the other.


----------



## mcarling

alserrod said:


> Which are, currently, lines under construction in France?


The LGV Rhin-Rhône Line is nearing completion. The extension of the LGV Méditerranée Line to Montpellier and Perpignan is also under construction, due to open in 2013. Construction should begin very soon on the extension of the LGV Est Line to Strasbourg, the LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire Line to Rennes, and the LGV Sud-Ouest Line to Bordeaux.


----------



## Fatfield

K_ said:


> There is a way of shaving 20 minutes of London to Paris that doesn't involve any expensive infrastructure: Get rid of the silly check in and security theatre. That would make direct trains from London to other places on the continent immediately viable.



Are you talking about time between London & Paris or overall travel time from from leaving home?


----------



## K_

Fatfield said:


> Are you talking about time between London & Paris or overall travel time from from leaving home?


I'm talking about what matters for the traveller: Door to door times. 
If I have to be at the station half an hour before departure that adds half an hour to my travel time.


----------



## hhouse

mcarling said:


> The LGV Rhin-Rhône Line is nearing completion. The extension of the LGV Méditerranée Line to Montpellier and Perpignan is also under construction, due to open in 2013. *Construction should begin very soon on the extension of the LGV Est Line to Strasbourg*, the LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire Line to Rennes, and the LGV Sud-Ouest Line to Bordeaux.


Ehm, the construction already started since nearly one year... Completion March 2016 (planned). 
The Countournement between Nimes and Montpellier is not yet under construction. Planned completion 2016.


----------



## Fatfield

K_ said:


> I'm talking about what matters for the traveller: Door to door times.
> If I have to be at the station half an hour before departure that adds half an hour to my travel time.


Door to door! He he he. You don't really believe that taking the check-in and passport check away would seriously save you 20 minutes! Sorry, its 30 minutes now! hno: Do you live on the platform? You do realise that our glorious integrated transport system can leave you waiting for over 45 minutes for your connection?

This has nothing to do with your pathetic belief that everything would be better if we were (shudder) part of Shengen so get over it.


----------



## JoFMO

mcarling said:


> Your proposal would cost more than half what the planned LGV Picardie (Paris - Amiens - Calais) line would cost and provide less than half the benefit.


Where is the benefit in building a new 200km long line for several billion Euro while only removing a maximum of 2 trains per hour from the overcrowded TGV nord line?


----------



## K_

Fatfield said:


> Door to door! He he he. You don't really believe that taking the check-in and passport check away would seriously save you 20 minutes!


It would. This is not a matter of belief, but a matter of being able to add minutes together. Without the check you can leave home later for quite a few of potential points of origin. Without the check in you could even organize a cross-platform transfer between Eurostar and a intersector TGV in Lille, thus increasing the value of your service immensely to quite a large number of potential customers.
And you could even do something you hardly can't practically do now: Have a Eurostar server places beyond Paris.



> Sorry, its 30 minutes now! hno: Do you live on the platform? You do realise that our glorious integrated transport system can leave you waiting for over 45 minutes for your connection?


If it makes you wait for 45 minutes than it's not well integrated, and certainly not glorious. There is no black magic involved in timing transfers at major hubs, you know. 

But this has nothing to do with "living on the platform" or integration, but simply with the fact that the check - in deadline is the de-facto departure time of the Eurostar train from the point of view of the passengers. This is the time that you have to take in to account when planning how and when you go to the terminal. Take away that check in and the effect is the same as it would be if you cut 30 minutes of the time on route. 

In both cases you suddenly you can turn up at the terminal 30 minutes later. Don't tell me that this does not mean you can leave home later for quite a few passengers.



> This has nothing to do with your pathetic belief that everything would be better if we were (shudder) part of Shengen so get over it.


What has this to do with Schengen? Where have I voiced the belief that the UK should join Schengen? There was a time before Schengen. International trains did not require passengers to be at the station 30 minutes beforehand for check in or subject to pointless security theatre then either.


----------



## Fatfield

K_ said:


> It would. This is not a matter of belief, but a matter of being able to add minutes together. Without the check you can leave home later for quite a few of potential points of origin. Without the check in you could even organize a cross-platform transfer between Eurostar and a intersector TGV in Lille, thus increasing the value of your service immensely to quite a large number of potential customers.
> And you could even do something you hardly can't practically do now: Have a Eurostar server places beyond Paris.
> 
> *You still need to allow time on your journey to the terminal. As long as the train originates in, or is going to, the UK the check-in will remain. It makes no difference time wise. If 20-30 minutes is so important to you then I would suggest you either take the car, fly, organise your life better or use some other form of transport.*
> 
> If it makes you wait for 45 minutes than it's not well integrated, and certainly not glorious. There is no black magic involved in timing transfers at major hubs, you know.
> 
> *Sarcasm is lost on you.*
> 
> But this has nothing to do with "living on the platform" or integration, but simply with the fact that the check - in deadline is the de-facto departure time of the Eurostar train from the point of view of the passengers. This is the time that you have to take in to account when planning how and when you go to the terminal. Take away that check in and the effect is the same as it would be if you cut 30 minutes of the time on route.
> 
> In both cases you suddenly you can turn up at the terminal 30 minutes later. Don't tell me that this does not mean you can leave home later for quite a few passengers.
> 
> _*See my first point. And it isn't the de-facto departure time for passengers. If a plane was due to leave LHR for CDG at 10:00 would you assume that it was leaving at 09:15 as you're requested to check-in a minimum of 45 minutes from the scheduled departure time? Of course you wouldn't. As would 99.99999999% of the worlds population.*
> _
> 
> 
> What has this to do with Schengen? Where have I voiced the belief that the UK should join Schengen? There was a time before Schengen. International trains did not require passengers to be at the station 30 minutes beforehand for check in or subject to pointless security theatre then either.
> 
> *You have continuously complained about having to check-in for trains originating in, or leaving from, the UK throughout the Railway section. Something that, god forbid, wouldn't be in place if we (the UK) were part of Schengen.**
> 
> Yes there was a time before Schengen. If you were entering or leaving the UK by any means of transport you had to have a passport. Nothing's changed in that respect. Even if you enter via Ireland you'd still have to provide your passport at points of entry there. I don't have any experience of life before Schengen in Europe when using public transport but I do know that on board immigration checks were carried out on cross border trains. Often lasting longer than 30 paltry minutes.*


Anyway, happy Saint Ebbas day!


----------



## K_

> You still need to allow time on your journey to the terminal.


Sure you do. I never claimed otherwise. But there is a difference between needing to only allow for the journey to the terminal and needing to allow for the journey to the terminal and additionally needing to allow for the check in deadline. 
Seeing that there is a difference here should not be so hard. 

With a train that leaves at 10:00 I know that I have to be past it's door at 9:59:59 (ok, 9:59:00 in some countries) which means that being at the station at 9:50 is sufficient. Add 30 minutes check in and suddenly I have to be at the terminal 30 minutes earlier. That means getting there at 9:20. That means leaving home half an hour earlier. That means being en route to my destination half an hour longer. 



> See my first point. And it isn't the de-facto departure time for passengers. If a plane was due to leave LHR for CDG at 10:00 would you assume that it was leaving at 09:15 as you're requested to check-in a minimum of 45 minutes from the scheduled departure time? Of course you wouldn't. As would 99.99999999% of the worlds population


When I was living in the Netherlands I had to be in London quite regularly. I always flew via Rotterdam, because there the check-in time was only 15 minutes, allowing me to stay in bed about half an hour longer. About all peopel travelling from the Netherlands to London on business know this advantage that Rotterdam offers, and appreciate it...

Trains are slower than planes. They make up some of their disadvantage by having a more flexible regime, by having less extra "time overhead" in the form of check in times, boarding procedures etc.
That is why a four hour train ride can compete with a 1 1/2 hour flight. 
By adopting check in times and security checks Eurostar is foregoing some of the advantage trains offer over planes. And that is costing Eurostar customers and revenue. They can ofcourse try to make the trains even faster, but I suggest that removing some of the time overhead would be a smarter and cheaper move. That's all I'm saying.




Fatfield said:


> You have continuously complained about having to check-in for trains originating in, or leaving from, the UK throughout the Railway section. Something that, god forbid, wouldn't be in place if we (the UK) were part of Schengen.


You are here grossly misrepresenting my argument. What I am talking about is getting rid of the security theatre (because it is costly and useless) and the requirement to "check in", something all other high speed trains in Europe seem to be able to operate perfectly without. 

I dare you to find a post where I claimed that the UK must joing Schengen...



> I don't have any experience of life before Schengen in Europe when using public transport but I do know that on board immigration checks were carried out on cross border trains. Often lasting longer than 30 paltry minutes.


But passport checks were mostly done while the train was moving, so from the point of view of the passenger no time was lost. Where they were performed at the endpoints they only needed a few minutes. I have quite a bit of experience there as I moved to Switzerland before it joined Schengen. Having to go through passport control never kept me from making 10 minute connections in Basel.


----------



## Fatfield

K_ said:


> You are here grossly misrepresenting my argument. What I am talking about is getting rid of the security theatre (because it is costly and useless) and the requirement to "check in", something all other high speed trains in Europe seem to be able to operate perfectly without.
> 
> I dare you to find a post where I claimed that the UK must joing Schengen...


It might be costly but it is necessary. And it certainly isn't theatre. We need them in place to stop undesirables from entering the country. If this was done correctly by the European countries who have borders with non EU members then there wouldn't be a need. Until then however, we will continue to have them.

And I didn't say you have. Although it is blatently obvious you wish this to happen.

Oh and if 30 extra minutes in bed is so important........ If the rail companies can cut 30 minutes travel time from terminal to terminal then that is a real saving on travel time. Until then there is no real saving.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Times have changed. There are hundreds of people camping precariously in Calais taking all sorts of chances to get hidden in trucks going to England via Euroshuttle of, mostly, the ferry. They will hide above the axle, they will hide on the cargo compartment, sometimes dangerously. There is a mini-army of Home Office guards there to screen out these people.

Now imagine a situation in whcih somebody boards an Eurostar bound to London, without a ticket, with a handful of companions, and, when checked on-board for documents, decide to hide in the bathroom, become aggressive or, worse, without the x-ray decide to take some hostages demanding train doors to be opened or else they will kill a passenger.

There is a flood of unwanted people to UK. It would be better if the countries on Schengen borders took care and detained these people in the Mediterranean or in Greek, Polish, Romanian borders, preventing them from entering EU first place. But since that is not happening, UK must take precautions to avoid people reaching Great Britain Isle.


----------



## K_

Fatfield said:


> It might be costly but it is necessary. And it certainly isn't theatre. We need them in place to stop undesirables from entering the country. If this was done correctly by the European countries who have borders with non EU members then there wouldn't be a need. Until then however, we will continue to have them.


The security theatre isn't about keeping undesireables out of the country. It's about pretending to do something against terrorism.
Mandatory check in, scanning luggage and immigration controls are all different things. 



> And I didn't say you have. Although it is blatently obvious you wish this to happen.


I do not wish for the UK to koin Schengen. I would even like to see the UK leave the European Union. (I would like to see every country leave the European Union)

However, I do wish for the freedoms we used to have to return. It was once possible to travel by train all over Europe without carrying a passport. That was before the EU though... Long before my time even.



> Oh and if 30 extra minutes in bed is so important........ If the rail companies can cut 30 minutes travel time from terminal to terminal then that is a real saving on travel time. Until then there is no real saving.


You must have a strange definition of "real". Are you familiar with basic mathematics?


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> There is a flood of unwanted people to UK.


Maybe we should reconsider wether these people are really unwantend? 
In other contexts you seem to be in favor of free enterprise and free trade. Why are you so against the free movement of labor? The world could easily double its GDP, reducing inequality and poverty in the process by removing all immigration restrictions.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Now imagine a situation in whcih somebody boards an Eurostar bound to London, without a ticket, with a handful of companions, and, when checked on-board for documents, decide to hide in the bathroom, become aggressive or, worse, without the x-ray decide to take some hostages demanding train doors to be opened or else they will kill a passenger.


Why go through the trouble of doing that on a Eurostar if you can just stop a bus on a freeway and do the same thing? If it was so easy to bluff yourself in to the UK by taking hostages, why doesn't it happen all the time then?

Stop thinking the world works the way they seem to think in Holywood.


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> However, I do wish for the freedoms we used to have to return. It was once possible to travel by train all over Europe without carrying a passport. That was before the EU though... Long before my time even.


Romanticized views... Sure, between the end of WW1 up til the early 1930s it was possible to travel in US, all British then-possessions, and most of Europe with an identity card only. 

But you didn't have anthrax, and most immigrant movements were US-bound, and US was keen to welcome most immigrants anyway. You didn't have massive inter-country migration in the context of a post-industrial society.

So different times, different travel restriction.

However, remember that was a brief period. For most of 18th Century well into the 1950s, it was often difficult, and sometimes a crime/infraction, to travel or trade with "enemy" countries. And well into the early 1970s you couldn't still spend whatever money you wanted abroad, even within Europe.


----------



## Gadiri

> *SNCF : 150 TGV de trop​
> 23/06/2011*
> 
> 
> *Jusqu’à présent, on parlait plutôt de 35 rames de trop*. Mais, avec la crise, du fait des péages et à l’approche de la concurrence, le modèle TGV est par terre et, selon des dirigeants de la SNCF, *ce sont environ 150 rames de trop qu’on dénombrerait dans le parc TGV. Grosso modo, le tiers*. Le message est clair et s’adresse aux politiques : si vous voulez que la SNCF commande des rames, fasse tourner l’industrie et soit en bonne santé, redonnez-lui un modèle qui fonctionne. Alstom aimerait fort que les commandes se réveillent. Selon Les Echos, le constructeur a conçu un *AGV II dont la version Duplex *a tout l’air d’être taillée pour les besoins de la SNCF. Mais aujourd’hui *l’entreprise nationale fait tout pour repousser le moment d’investir dans de nouvelles rames*. Elle s’est lancée dans* la rénovation de 60 rames de TGV PSE (+ 47 en option), *pour lesquelles l’entreprise Compin fournit des kits de rénovation au Technicentre de Romilly.



http://www.ville-rail-transports.com/content/16150-sncf-150-tgv-de-trop



> *SNCF: TGV 150 too​
> 
> 23/06/2011*
> 
> 
> So far, *we talked more than 35 trains too*. But *with the crisis*, because of the tolls and the approach of competition, the TGV model is on the ground and, according to officers of the station, *around 150 trains that too counted in the park TGV.* *Roughly one-third.* The message is clear and is addressed to policy: if you want the SNCF orders trains, makes turn the industry and be healthy, Give it a model that works. Alstom wants stronger than the wake up command. According to Les Echos, the manufacturer has designed a version of which *AGV II Duplex *everything seems to be tailored for the needs of the station. But today the *SNCF do everything to delay the time to invest in new trains. She embarked on the renovation of 60 trains TGV PSE (+ 47 options)*, for which the company provides kits Compin renovation to Technicentre Romilly.




60 rames TGV PSE + 47 en option, cela correspond au parc de 107 rames PSE de la SNCF. 




http://www.web-trains.com/pse/pse_13.jpg






http://fourga.free.fr/tgv/europ_fr.htm


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## Fatfield

K_ said:


> The security theatre isn't about keeping undesireables out of the country. It's about pretending to do something against terrorism.
> Mandatory check in, scanning luggage and immigration controls are all different things.
> 
> *Absolute codswallop. Do you really believe that? I suppose all those Africans at Sangat etc are terrorists!
> *
> 
> I do not wish for the UK to koin Schengen. I would even like to see the UK leave the European Union. (I would like to see every country leave the European Union)
> 
> However, I do wish for the freedoms we used to have to return. It was once possible to travel by train all over Europe without carrying a passport. That was before the EU though... Long before my time even.
> 
> *And here was me thinking that checks at border crossings happened before Schengen. How naive of me!*
> 
> 
> You must have a strange definition of "real". Are you familiar with basic mathematics?


And yes I am familiar with basic mathematics. Living in the real world will tell you that if you lived there.


----------



## Fatfield

K_ said:


> Why go through the trouble of doing that on a Eurostar if you can just stop a bus on a freeway and do the same thing? *If it was so easy to bluff yourself in to the UK by taking hostages, why doesn't it happen all the time then?*
> 
> Stop thinking the world works the way they seem to think in Holywood.


You know those checks we have at the stations.......


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Romanticized views... Sure, between the end of WW1 up til the early 1930s it was possible to travel in US, all British then-possessions, and most of Europe with an identity card only.


Oh, I'm talking about the 19th century, when it was possible to freely travel around Europe without any form of ID card. You were who you told you were, and that was accepted.


----------



## K_

Fatfield said:


> You know those checks we have at the stations.......


Which checks? 
In Paris only Eurostar has security checks. Thalys for example hasn't. Yet not a single Thalys train has been bombed...


----------



## mcarling

K_ said:


> Oh, I'm talking about the 19th century, when it was possible to freely travel around Europe without any form of ID card. You were who you told you were, and that was accepted.


That's true.



K_ said:


> Which checks?
> In Paris only Eurostar has security checks. Thalys for example hasn't. Yet not a single Thalys train has been bombed...


While I agree that the security checks for Eurostar are a colossal waste of time, I do acknowledge that a bomb detonated in the Channel Tunnel could do more damage than a similar bomb detonated anywhere along Thalys.


----------



## K_

mcarling said:


> While I agree that the security checks for Eurostar are a colossal waste of time, I do acknowledge that a bomb detonated in the Channel Tunnel could do more damage than a similar bomb detonated anywhere along Thalys.


As do fires in lorries...

So far the number of foiled bombing plots is zero. The tunnel has had a serious fire twice though.


----------



## K_

K_ said:


> Oh, I'm talking about the 19th century, when it was possible to freely travel around Europe without any form of ID card. You were who you told you were, and that was accepted.


Interestingly it's was railways that brought this about. Before that you did need a "laisser passer" to get across most borders. But not a plot of people travelled. Railways changed that. People started to travel more and more and the checks at the border got problematic. By mid century countries in Europe started to abolish visa and passport requirements, France being one of the first. What followed was a period or relatively free movement of persons (and goods).

(It's only with WWI that the restrictions came back. In retrospect one cannot underestimate the huge disaster the "Great War" was for Europe.)


----------



## Suburbanist

Schengen takes care of most problems, doesn't it?


----------



## mcarling

Suburbanist said:


> Schengen takes care of most problems, doesn't it?


It would if the European Commission would enforce it. Latvia, for example, still routinely stops motorists to check their passports on the borders with Estonia and Lithuania in violation of European Regulation 562/2006 Article 20.


----------



## K_

Is anything know yet about the 2012 SNCF timetable? RFI and SNCF have worked together to implement a nationwide interval timetable, and aparently about 80% of trains will see their schedule changed. 

Has the new timetable already been published somewhere?


----------



## mcarling

K_ said:


> Is anything know yet about the 2012 SNCF timetable? RFI and SNCF have worked together to implement a nationwide interval timetable, and aparently about 80% of trains will see their schedule changed.


The opening of new LGV (in December?) will also force some schedule changes.


----------



## AlexNL

Railway Gazette reports:



> Speaking in Moscow, Alstom Technical Director Francois Lacote confirms development of double deck AGVII concept for SNCF #expo1520


:cheers:


----------



## Gadiri

*LGV Rhin-Rhône : Strasbourg-Dijon en deux heures *



> La branche Est de la ligne à grande vitesse Rhin-Rhône inaugurée ce jeudi par Nicolas Sarkozy, permettra de se déplacer de *Dijon à Strasbourg en à peine 2h*. *À terme, la LGV doit relier Strasbourg à Lyon*


----------



## Gadiri




----------



## 3737

Gadiri said:


> *LGV Rhin-Rhône : Strasbourg-Dijon en deux heures *


Is that a new livery for the TGV ? looks nice


----------



## Coccodrillo

No, it is a special livery for the inauguration and tests (this TGV has been modified with sensors etc to test the new line).


----------



## Augusto

Minato ku said:


> A TER (I don't know of what Region) bound to Montparnasse, also notice the blue double decker RER C on the other platform.


Basse Normandie.


----------



## Blackraven

Question: How do you travel to and from CDG Airport and the main railway station at the capital/center (Gare De Nord)???

Wikipedia said I should take something like this one:










But it doesn't give specific information (like what is the name of the train or service, how many stations do I need to travel, if I need to transfer or not, etc etc.)

Assuming that I'm a first time visitor in France, can you kindly teach me how to travel by train between CDG Airport railway station and main railway station at the center/capital?

Thanks 

P.S.
There is another airport rail link service being proposed called CDG Express:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDG_Express

Thing is, why is the ending destination at "East station" (Gare De Est)? Shouldn't the direct connection land at the main station "the north" (Gare Du Nord)?

Just a thought.......


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## XAN_

No, that an hi-speed train, it's expensive and rare and designed for traveling for long distance and require pre-booking a seat, and you need a cheaper and more frequent one - local train line RER B - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER_B

It has express and regural trains, but don't worry - both regural and express trains stops both at Airport and at Gare Nord.


----------



## hhouse

There is no main station in Paris... There are several main hubs... Gare du Nord is important as the name says for northbound high-speed services (London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Lille, ...), Gare de Est for eastbound high-speed services (Strasbourg, Germany, Switzerland [just till the timetable change in December], ...), and so on. Gare de Est and Gare du Nord are just 15 minutes walk away from each other.


----------



## Blackraven

XAN_ said:


> No, that an hi-speed train, it's expensive and rare and designed for traveling for long distance and require pre-booking a seat, and you need a cheaper and more frequent one - local train line RER B - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER_B
> 
> It has express and regural trains, but don't worry - both regural and express trains stops both at Airport and at Gare Nord.


Yeah, I heard about RER........but I think it's more of the suburban rail type.

So with that said, I'm presuming the fastest airport rail link (CDG<->City Center) is still by TGV bullet train. 

So yeah, what would the route map be like:
CDG Airport Railway Station (TGV)<->Gare Du Nord

Is it one straight/direct service or do I need to make a transfer or switch trains?


----------



## XAN_

Blackraven said:


> Yeah, I heard about RER........but I think it's more of the suburban rail type.
> 
> So with that said, I'm presuming the fastest airport rail link (CDG<->City Center) is still by TGV bullet train.
> 
> So yeah, what would the route map be like:
> CDG Airport Railway Station (TGV)<->Gare Du Nord
> 
> Is it one straight/direct service or do I need to make a transfer or switch trains?


Yes, it will be faster, but if you don't care to pay extra money and do extra paperwork to win like 10 minute of difference... Than it's ok.


----------



## Blackraven

XAN_ said:


> Yes, it will be faster, but if you don't care to pay extra money and do extra paperwork to win like 10 minute of difference... Than it's ok.


Hehe don't worry. Money would be no object for me on this one. I.e. what I give up with higher fare, I gain back with faster traveling time and efficiency.

So yeah, what's the route map? (no one said anything yet)


----------



## Coccodrillo

TGV from CDG Airport don't go to Paris, but to other cities. CDG's TGV station is served only by trains like Lille-CDG-Lyon.


----------



## Blackraven

Hmm.........aww, but I think there is (sorry if I sound stubborn or hard-headed).

Either way, I think the clue(s) lie/s in these train stations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_TGV_Haute-Picardie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_d'Arras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lille_Europe_railway_station


----------



## K_

Blackraven said:


> Assuming that I'm a first time visitor in France, can you kindly teach me how to travel by train between CDG Airport railway station and main railway station at the center/capital?


There are two railway stations at CDG airport.

There's a station at T3 that is served by RER (commuter) trains, and one at T3 that is served both by RER and TGV trains. The RER trains go to Paris Nord. The TGVs go everywhere (even to Belgium) but Paris proper. The CDG TGV station is on a connecting line that connects the LGV Nord with the LGV EST and the LGV Sud-Est, so it is only used by trains bypassing Paris, what the SNCF calls "inter sector" trains.



> There is another airport rail link service being proposed called CDG Express:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDG_Express
> 
> Thing is, why is the ending destination at "East station" (Gare De Est)? Shouldn't the direct connection land at the main station "the north" (Gare Du Nord)?


That is indeed planned. The reason for using Paris Est is that it has a lot of spare capacity, so it's an easy solution.
However, they could use Paris Nord if they used that station more efficiently. (In fact, they could run the LGV-Est trains to Paris Nord too...)


----------



## Momo1435

With the RER it only takes 15 minutes from CDG to Paris Nord, you can't go faster by rail right now.


A TGV service between CDG and Paris Nord is in theory possible, but it would only use only a few KMs of proper High Speed line that is already congested. In other words it wouldn't save that much time (5 min. max) and it would give problems to the real TGV services coming in and out of Paris. And it wouldn't have the advantage of the RER that also takes you beyond Paris Nord straight into the hart of the city with halts at the Notre Dame for example. 

btw, if you want to use the TGV right now from CDG to Paris Nord it will take a couple of hours. It's not a real option.


----------



## Minato ku

*Paris suburban network*








Epinay Villetaneuse
Z 50000 bound to Montsoult - Maffliers

















Left Z2N and in the right a VB2N bound to Paris Gare du Nord












Momo1435 said:


> With the RER it only takes 15 minutes from CDG to Paris Nord, you can't go faster by rail right now.


It is 25 min, not 15 min.
The express service Gare du Nord - CDG of the RER B will disappear by 2012 during the rush hour.
Every train will be local and will stop at every station.


----------



## Blackraven

Momo1435 said:


> btw, if you want to use the TGV right now from CDG to Paris Nord it will take a couple of hours. It's not a real option.


Yikes two hours?

Hmm.....it looks like it isn't a suggestible option at the moment.

Anyways
I just browsed through the french version of the wiki page (even though I don't read French):
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDG_Express

Someone mentioned that if the project is approved, the target completion date would be year 2016.


----------



## Minato ku

The CDG Express project is almost dead by now, the RATP proposed an express train departing from the surface platforms of Gare du Nord.


----------



## Hubert Pollak

I noticed that there is direct TGV Lille Europe - Mullhouse trains via Strasbourg:

Lille Europe 11:26 
Mulhouse Ville 15:47 

Basel is only 36 km further, so why not extend this connection to Basel, which is the important destination??

Lille is much more better exchange place than Paris so it could be also a great option for Eurostar and Thalys passengers traveling to Switzerland.


----------



## K_

Hubert Pollak said:


> I noticed that there is direct TGV Lille Europe - Mullhouse trains via Strasbourg:
> 
> Lille Europe 11:26
> Mulhouse Ville 15:47
> 
> Basel is only 36 km further, so why not extend this connection to Basel, which is the important destination??
> 
> Lille is much more better exchange place than Paris so it could be also a great option for Eurostar and Thalys passengers traveling to Switzerland.


There are actually two such TGVs. One goes via Strassbourg, the other via Dijon. Continuing them to Basel would be a good idea, but I'm afraid the whole idea of train services being part of a network is only starting to trickle down to the timetable planners at the SNCF.
If one were to extend this train to Basel it would arrive there around 16:15 which would be perfect to allow connections to everywhere in Switzerland. 

There are also some practical issues however. SBB and SNCF actually want to get rid of the French section of the railway station in Basel, so that realy only TGVs that can run in Switzerland can be used here...

Now what I think might be a good idea, and one that would interest the Swiss too, would be a TGV Brussel - Lille Europe - CDG - Strassbourg - Basel - Bern. The Swiss governement would really like to have a train between Bern, Strassbourg and Brussel again, and such a train would offer quite a few interesting possibilities...

We might get something like that in the near future anyway if Eurostar runs to Basel.


----------



## sidra2010143

color full trains


----------



## Minato ku

By the way, Switzerland is a contributor of the new Rhin Rhone LGV.









Confédération Helvétique = Switzerland

French State : 32%, €751 million
RRF (French Rail Network) : 28%, €642 million
Franche-Comté Region : 14%, €312 million
Alsace region : 9%, €206 million
European Union : 8%, €200 million
Bourgogne region : 6%, €131 million
Switzerland : 3%, €66 million


----------



## Minato ku

sidra2010143 said:


> color full trains


The interior of the Z50000 is even more colorfull.


----------



## IanCleverly

Rail Journal said:


> VEOLIA has today announced its intention to sell its transport business as part of a plan to dispose of up to Euros 5bn worth of assets in the next two years. The French company is under pressure to stem a slump in its share price in the wake of two successive profit warnings.
> 
> Veolia will now sell its 50% share in Veolia Transdev, despite only completing the merger in April.


Story continues Here


----------



## Blackraven

Guessing time: When do you think the new Alstom AGV bullet trains will be used in France?


----------



## AlexNL

Blackraven said:


> Guessing time: When do you think the new Alstom AGV bullet trains will be used in France?


In 2007 SNCF ordered their latest trains, a batch of 50 TGV Duplex. The next order may be for AGV, maybe when it's time to replace the TGVs on the Paris Sud Est route. Alstom is working on a Duplex version of the AGV.

Since SNCF has a 20% stake in NTV, they might be able to get a look at how well NTV and their customers receive the AGV.


----------



## George5

I don't know did this video about AGV is already posted here, but it is interesting.

Alstom AGV 001

http://cdn.streamlike.com/hosting/a...ransport&language=all&type=detailed&number=10

Alstom AGV 001 test run in France, 360kmh, December 2008

http://cdn.streamlike.com/hosting/a...Clause=date&type=detailed&number=10&offset=10

AGV NTV 

http://cdn.streamlike.com/hosting/a...ransport&language=all&type=detailed&number=10


----------



## 1772

Are there any plans to speed up the Brussels-Paris line? 
I might be working in Brussels in a couple of years, but I really think the town sucks (sorry if anyone gets offended). 
I'd much rather live in Paris and commute daily. 

Today, that isn't really viable; so do they plan to increase the speed of that particular line?


----------



## Axelferis

Have you visited bruxelles?


----------



## 1772

Axelferis said:


> Have you visited bruxelles?


Yeah? Why would I say it sucks if I hadn't visit?


----------



## AlexNL

1772 said:


> Are there any plans to speed up the Brussels-Paris line?


That's unlikely given the current economic situation of Belgium as well as France.

Since the line is already built for 300 km/h, upgrading it would cost millions and the benefits would be little; even if the line itself would be upgraded to 360 km/h and there would be AGV rolling stock, that wouldn't mean that 1/5th of the travel time would be slashed, since a higher top speed needs more time for acceleration and deceleration.

Maybe 1/10th is a realistic time gain. Currently Thalys takes 1h22 to get from Paris Nord to Brussels South. That's 82 minutes. 1/10th of that is an improvement of... 8 minutes.

So all in all, the time gained is only a couple of minutes. Any cost/benefit analysis would advise against such an investment.


----------



## K_

1772 said:


> I might be working in Brussels in a couple of years, but I really think the town sucks (sorry if anyone gets offended).


If you want to live somewhere that sucks less and commute daily, look at Antwerpen, Gent or Leuven. 
You don't need to go as far as Paris. Commuting from Paris would be an expensive proposition anyway.


----------



## 1772

Ok, thanks guys.


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> So all in all, the time gained is only a couple of minutes. Any cost/benefit analysis would advise against such an investment.


A more meaningful investment would be to build a tunnel connecting Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon, and build a new underground TGV station in the middle of Paris. That would save a lot of time for a lot of people...


----------



## Silly_Walks

Why would they upgrade a 300 km/h line? They need to speed up Antwerp-Brussels first.


----------



## makita09

AlexNL said:


> That's unlikely given the current economic situation of Belgium as well as France.
> 
> Since the line is already built for 300 km/h, upgrading it would cost millions and the benefits would be little; even if the line itself would be upgraded to 360 km/h and there would be AGV rolling stock, that wouldn't mean that 1/5th of the travel time would be slashed, since a higher top speed needs more time for acceleration and deceleration.
> 
> Maybe 1/10th is a realistic time gain. Currently Thalys takes 1h22 to get from Paris Nord to Brussels South. That's 82 minutes. 1/10th of that is an improvement of... 8 minutes.
> 
> So all in all, the time gained is only a couple of minutes. Any cost/benefit analysis would advise against such an investment.


Actually the alignment was built for 350km/h, so the only real restriction is the rolling stock. Still, thats a lot rolling stock to replace.

France learnt their lesson with the LGV Sud-Est and made sure future routes had some future proofing. Unfortunately I can only find the wikipedia page to support that, the French one states curve radius of 6000m (good for 400km/h), with some 4000m (good for 320-330km/h), but this isn't where I originally read this.

Found another link though http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/tgvnord.html


----------



## MarcVD

makita09 said:


> Actually the alignment was built for 350km/h, so the only real restriction is the rolling stock. Still, thats a lot rolling stock to replace.


Not as much as you might think.

There are 17 PBKA sets, still all in service.

There were 10 TGV réseau tricourant sets specially adapted, and re-painted
in red, for circulation to Amsterdam (they don't have 15 kV so they can't
go to Germany). One has been returned to the TGV réseau fleet.

There are ordinary TGV réseau tricourant for the missions to the south of
Paris.

And then there is the Eurostar fleet, which is going to be renewed.

So we don't speak about that much sets, and some of them are already
quite well worn-out, despite the Lacroix refurbishing.

So I don't think that the obstacle would be the rolling stock.


----------



## makita09

The eurostar sets aren't going to be renewed any timesoon,at least another 10 years. They are expanding the fleet but with sets capable of only 320km/h.

There is not a single set currently operating on the LGV Nord that can do 350km/h. As there are no other significant obstacles saying "So I don't think that the obstacle would be the rolling stock. " is confusing to me. What other obstacles would it be then?


----------



## MarcVD

makita09 said:


> The eurostar sets aren't going to be renewed any timesoon,at least another 10 years. They are expanding the fleet but with sets capable of only 320km/h.


Which is something I do not understand. Why is the Eurostar fleet extended ?
There are sets in the current fleet that are not used :

- Although they could perfectly be used for the services to Brussels, the NOL
sets are not used for channel traffic

- SNCF uses some of its sets for french domestic traffic

- There was one belgian set that was left unused for years in the Brussels
South depot. It has now be taken over by SNCF too.

So before buidling a new fleet, why is the existing one not operated properly ?
And why is expansion necessary ?


----------



## AlexNL

Expansion is necessary as Eurostar wants to expand its services. Eurostar wants to offer direct trains to Amsterdam and Geneva, and the current fleet is equipped with the necessary systems for the Netherlands and Switzerland. The current TGV TMST trainsets can't go to the Netherlands (no ATB-EG, no ERTMS) and can't go to Switzerland either (no 15 kV installation).

The new e320-trains should fix this.


----------



## K_

AlexNL said:


> Expansion is necessary as Eurostar wants to expand its services. Eurostar wants to offer direct trains to Amsterdam and Geneva, and the current fleet is equipped with the necessary systems for the Netherlands and Switzerland. The current TGV TMST trainsets can't go to the Netherlands (no ATB-EG, no ERTMS) and can't go to Switzerland either (no 15 kV installation).


Actually you don't need 15kV to get to Geneva. The current Eurostar sets could probably already run there, as the line is "French" all the way to Cornavin.


----------



## Momo1435

Indeed, Geneva has always been served by regular TGVs, SudEst or Duplex. In this example Eurostar just needs the extra capacity to start a new service.


----------



## AlexNL

Ah, I didn't know that. One learns every day 

In other news, RFF has granted a € 80 million contract to a consortium led by Alstom to electrify and upgrade an 80 km line between Valence and Moirans. See IRJ


----------



## Coccodrillo

The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.


----------



## AlexNL

Coccodrillo said:


> The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.


Why not? Everything to the north of Paris (including Gare du Nord) is 1500 V except for the LGVs.


----------



## Babenhausen Süd

Not really. hno:

All the 1500 V in France is to the SOUTH of Paris:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/france/france.gif


----------



## AlexNL

Babenhausen Süd said:


> Not really. hno:
> 
> All the 1500 V in France is to the SOUTH of Paris:
> 
> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/france/france.gif


Humm, once again I am mistaken. Obviously it's not my best day, because I knew this.

Anyway, since Eurostar also serves destinations in the south of France (ski destinations for example) all their trains should already be 1500 V capable, no?


----------



## Coccodrillo

You are right, it's not your best day! 



Coccodrillo said:


> The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.


Some TGV Eurostar can operate under 1500 V DC. I don't know how many, but certainly not all.


----------



## AlexNL

Coccodrillo said:


> You are right, it's not your best day!


Hopefully I'll be better at it by tomorrow :cheers:


> Some TGV Eurostar can operate under 1500 V DC. I don't know how many, but certainly not all.


I looked it up on Wikipedia, where I found this:


> Five of the SNCF-owned sets are quadri-voltage, being able to operate from 1,500 V DC (French lignes classiques) in the south of France; these sets are used for London–Avignon and ski services.


----------



## K_

Coccodrillo said:


> The line to Geneva is 1500 V DC though, and not all EuroStar sets can run under it.


It is going to be converted to 25kV though. Don't know about Bourg - Macon though. That would also need to be converted so trains can reach Geneva from Paris without passing under 1500V. 

I think serving Geneva will become interesting for Eurostar once the CEVA line is complete in Geneva, because then easy connections can be offered both to the French and the Swiss Alps from the same service.


----------



## makita09

And also AlexNL, I thought all the 200m Three-capitals half-sets were in operation on Eurostar, with no spares. All the 'spares' are the shorter NoL half-sets in use with SCNF?

Can anyone clarify? I've always found trying to understand where the Eursotars are difficult.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Bourg-Mâcon will remain 1500 V DC for a while as SNCF has still many DC only stock.

The original Eurostar fleet consisted of:
3001-3022 Eurostar UK (11 long sets)
3101-3108 SNCB (4 long sets)
3201-3232 SNCF (16 long sets)
3301-3314 Eurostar UK (7 short sets)
3999 spare locomotive

That's 38 sets (76 half sets) and 77 locomotives. Each half set is numbered indipendently. The long ones have 9 coaches, the short ones 7 (18 and 14 plus 2 locomotives for the whole train).


----------



## makita09

How many long sets are in the Eurostar pools? Or are some used by SNCF alongside the 7 short sets for domestic LGV Nord services?


----------



## Momo1435

Wikipedia says that 3 long sets are in use by SNCF for domestic services.

Set numbers: 3203/4, 3225/26, 3227/28

They can be recognized by the SNCF logo's and the TGV colored grey nose.


----------



## eomer

1772 said:


> Today, that isn't really viable; so do they plan to increase the speed of that particular line?


Humm...it takes 90' from Paris to Bruxelles and top speed is 300 km/h: I don't think it's possible to go faster now.

*Here are some pics taken the oppening day of LGV Rhin-Rhône East.*








"Besançon Franche Comté TGV" new station.









"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval" new station 









"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval"...no shuttle to the cuty of Belfort...









TGV Strasbourg-Montpellier.









Savoureuse's Bridge









Savoureuse's Bridge









Savoureuse's Bridge (detail)









Savoureuse's Bridge (general view)









"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval" at sunset









"Belfort-Montbelliard-Méroux-Moval" north face.


----------



## 437.001

Nice pics, thanks. 
The Savoureuse viaduct is in concrete?
Those pillars have always left me wondering if it´s in concrete or some new kind of extra-hard plastic.

On the 9th picture we can see the Belfort-Delle line.
What about it? Is the project of reopening that line progressing? 
That would be great for the rail connections to Belfort city, and also to Porrentruy and Delemont in Switzerland.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> Nice pics, thanks.
> The Savoureuse viaduct is in concrete?
> Those pillars have always left me wondering if it´s in concrete or some new kind of extra-hard plastic.


I would guess they're steel.




> On the 9th picture we can see the Belfort-Delle line.
> What about it? Is the project of reopening that line progressing?
> That would be great for the rail connections to Belfort city, and also to Porrentruy and Delemont in Switzerland.


The Swiss are still pushing for a reopening. Currently it's foreseen for 2015. Plans are being drawn up, and the building should start in 2013.
The plan is to run hourly trains Biel - Delemont - Porrentruy - Delle - Belfort TGV - Belfort.


----------



## Coccodrillo

^^ plus some extra Belfort-Delle trains at peak hours


----------



## mcarling

K_ said:


> I would guess they're steel.


I'm sure they're steel.


----------



## 437.001

Anyway, I like it.
It looks smaller than it actually is.
It´s the one near Hericourt which crosses the classic Besançon-Belfort line, isn´t it?


----------



## parcdesprinces

del


----------



## parcdesprinces

del


----------



## XAN_

Calling to all French railfans - what the hell with SNCF online reservation and e-ticketing? 
When I try to order a ticket from http://www.tgv-europe.com/en/ , all i got is an error page in French - http://www.voyages-sncf.com/salle_attente/salle/index.html?_LANG=en


----------



## eomer

XAN_ said:


> Calling to all French railfans - what the hell with SNCF online reservation and e-ticketing?


There is a new version...


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ hno:

Vatican City & Andorra (+ Monaco who is a special case about that) are not part of Schengen either... I mean, and so ? 


(no comment about your other "points".. )


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> - UK is not part of Schegen
> - Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side
> - without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now
> -due to UK laws, it is much more difficult to deport and expell would-be illegal immigrants once they set foot in UK territory and claim asylum, especially if they have children. They would have to work out some legislation to make St. Pancras an "international area" with detention facilities and a much larger security apparatus to process bogus asylum claims.


Maybe it's time you and other get a bit less paranoid about migration. Why should capital and goods be able to move freely, but people not?

But can you explain why the problems you describe above were never a problem on continental European border crossing trains, even in times when the borders between eg. Germany and France were even more thightly policed thant the border between the UK and France is now.



> We didn't even spoke of the need to have a passenger manifest in the Chunnel with an exact list of names and count of passengers travelling.


Why do you need that? Why is it not required of the other trains going through the tunnel?


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> But can you explain why the problems you describe above were never a problem on continental European border crossing trains, even in times when the borders between eg. Germany and France were even more thightly policed thant the border between the UK and France is now.


I guess the French stopped fussing about the German border since the Maginot line lol.

Seriously, I bet the border was loose, already, in the 1960s.

And the non-European immigration threat to Europe was minimal by then.



> Why do you need that? Why is it not required of the other trains going through the tunnel?


The shuttle has controls and manifests on the vehicles entering the chunnel, which allow some matching should a fata accident happen there.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> The shuttle has controls and manifests on the vehicles entering the chunnel, which allow some matching should a fata accident happen there.


But no passenger lists. And when the Gotthard opens trains running through that tunnel won't have manifests either. Apparently not everyone is that paranoid.


----------



## Minato ku

> *Jean Nouvel to renovate train hub in heart of Paris*
> By Bryan Pirolli | January 23, 2012
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PARIS – The historic train station, Gare d’Austerlitz, is on board to be renovated by Jean Nouvel starting this year. The 600 million euro project, designed to upgrade the station and its surroundings, is projected to continue through 2020.
> 
> The Gare d’Austerlitz is one of Paris’s six main train stations. Originally built in 1840, it serves two metro lines, one Paris regional rail, and multiple national trains to the southwest of France. With 23 million passengers per year, the SNCF, France’s railway company, hopes that the new train station will not only facilitate transportation via new high speed lines, but also rejuvenate the neighborhood.
> 
> Christian Brézet, director of the project spearheaded by the Gares & Connexions, a branch of SNCF in charge of developing 3000 French stations, shared details with SmartPlanet. During the renovations, traffic will continue across the railways. Buildings dating to the 1860s, classified as historical monuments since 1997, will be preserved and integrated into the new design, conceived by architects Jean Nouvel and Jean-Marie Duthilleul. For example, 200 million euros will be dedicated to renovating the glass roof in the grand hall where hot air balloons were manufactured during the 1870 siege of Paris.
> 
> The current train station is not the easiest to navigate. Brézet said that a large part of the renovation will be opening up and easing transportation within the station itself. “The renovation of the station will integrate the development of a system that will increase travelers’ comfort and also aid in finding their way in the station,” he said. Improved access to train platforms, including new escalators and hallways, should make navigating the often confusing station easier.
> 
> Plans also include reorganize the courtyards, creating a grand staircase towards the river, easing access to the adjacent hospital and offering better roads for light traffic including taxis, bikes, and pedestrians. Construction crews will also destroy several SNCF buildings currently on the site in favor of new office buildings and green spaces.
> 
> More than just easing transportation, Nouvel and his team hope to rejuvenate the neighborhood around the train station, which is located on the bank of the Seine. The adjacent Jardin des Plantes and Natural History Museum are important landmarks but few people are drawn to the streets around the Gare d’Austerlitz. The renovation will eventually draw new stores, cafés, and businesses into the neighborhood. “One of the principal objectives of the renovations is based on the idea of creating an Austerlitz quarter, a train station quarter,” Brézet said.
> 
> While the stairway towards Avenue Pierre-Mendès France should be constructed as soon as 2013, many plans for the new station remain long-term. Gare d’Austerlitz will welcome a new high speed TGV train to Lyon by 2025, making it an even more important transport hub. Brézet said that SNCF is hoping for 50 million travelers per year by 2030, thanks in part to 15,000 more suburban trains.
> 
> Certain plans are still undefined, but Brézet said that as part of the Grand Paris urban expansion project, the Gare d’Austerlitz could be a connection point for the new line linking the airport at Orly. “Different propositions are being studied and discussed by the public to consider different ways to connect with the Massy-Orly line, creating a Parisian antenna for this new network,” he said.


http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/global-observer/jean-nouvel-to-renovate-train-hub-in-heart-of-paris/3153


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> I guess the French stopped fussing about the German border since the Maginot line lol.


Actually in the 19th century you could cross from Germany in to France without even a passport. You also didn't need a passport to enter the UK. And a major cause of that were the railways...
Border ID controls were most common between the world wars.


----------



## parcdesprinces

del


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> - Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side



Maybe be should talk about it in the international border thread but...

Andorra-Spain has one road with no kind of control. It is thrue that, because mountains, it is a Spanish Village (Os de Civis) that must cross the Andorran territory to go anywhere (or crossing high mountains). As we know, Andorra is a free tax country. 
There are no customs controls on the border nor police cars around it. Even there is not a sign to point when you are crossing the border. As well as main border to Spain as well as border to France are strongly controlled, this one is just... not controlled. Borders are controlled because smuggling. France and Spain know how many freight arrive to Andorra and can check how many smuggling they are having. About people... anyone who enters in the country, sometime he will leave..... (and it is very easy to have controlled a person there)

But there is a more hotspot border in Schengen territory: Ceuta border.

There are two cities in the norht of Africa which are part of European Union, Schengen treaty, use Euro, etc, etc...

One of them, Ceuta, is only 14 km away from Europe.

Should you enter there, you can get a ferry to Europe with no custom control and go anywhere


There were too many illegal little ships but the coast is so controlled that most of them are returned.
But should someone cross the border on African continent, it is impossible to check later (yeah, you can ask for passport to any citizen in the street, just that)
Maybe Canary islands have been receiving more illegal inmigration because they are only 97 km away from Southern Morocco and Western Sahara... and not so far from Mauritania.
Moroccan police works to catch illegal inmigration but... if someone wants to go from central Africa to Europe, it could be easy with a ship from Mauritania to Canary Islands and later a plane to anywhere in Europe with no passport control........


This is a google map about the Ceuta fence

http://maps.google.es/maps?q=ceuta&....643066&hnear=Ceuta,+Ciudad+de+Ceuta&t=h&z=19

and two pics






















> - without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now


Entering with any weapon in other country can make you be arrested, not only apply in UK.

There are trains crossing all Europe... and they will find how to check you do not have weapons.


In Spain there are scanners in most stations and they are thinking how to erase them. 
But... in my city I know the case of a person who was going to get a regional train (not a long distance high speed train), had to cross the scanner and they detected it was a weapon... Yeah, it was a weapon who was carried to give another person for a competition (an official shooting competition and was asked to carry another weapon for reserve).

He was arrested because he hasn't licence to carry weapons (it was the person who was going to participate in the competition the only person allowed to carry them).


And there are direct trains to Portugal, France, Switzerland and Italy... and no so strong controls.


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## K_

alserrod said:


> In Spain there are scanners in most stations and they are thinking how to erase them.


These scanners are pretty much useless and a nuiseance to boot.


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## alserrod

+1 
everybody hate them. They are not at all stations and I can show how they are not effective.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure. 

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?


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## diegogalban

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.
> 
> When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.
> 
> Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.
> 
> Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?


That's just nonsense, in Spain only major train stations have scanners, and only for long distance and few regional trains... If you want to bring something ilegal to a train just get on a smaller station that doesn't have any kind of control.
Also, rail transport should NEVER get any close to the over exagerated "safety" measures instated on airports, one of the biggest advantages of a train is that you can get to the station few minutes before departure, also that you can be helped by family or friends to get in.

Trains HAVE to be different from air transport, and keep things that have been working for almost two centuries now.


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## iamawesomezero

very beautiful


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## Sopomon

Suburbanist said:


> Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.


London St. Pancras would lke you to think differently on that matter...

But honestly, where do these opinions stem from? It's not as if on a platform, a train's gonna come hurtling off the tracks and take everyone out like skittles, nor is it likely that some fanatical will run in with a bomb and ruin everyone's day that way either.
(Well it is possible, but the chances? Ridiculously small, with that kind of logic, you amy as well constantly wrap everything in your house in safety wrap incase it falls off a shelf and injures you.


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## Suburbanist

Sopomon said:


> London St. Pancras would lke you to think differently on that matter...


There is no problem having a shoppig area within a station. Airports do have that as well. I just think platforms should r segregated with checkin/scanning facilities and platform screen doors. The latter is of utmost importance. Even if screening is not possible, putting fare gates is a first step.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.
> 
> When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.
> 
> Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.
> 
> Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?


Do you really want travel to be as disagreeable and inconvenient as possible?

Why do I have the impression that you ware basically against everything that has the potential of making life worth living?


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> Do you really want travel to be as disagreeable and inconvenient as possible?
> 
> Why do I have the impression that you ware basically against everything that has the potential of making life worth living?


It is just about thwarting terrorists.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> It is just about thwarting terrorists.


No it is not. 
The security regime imposed on airline travelers is a net cost to those travelers as it does not buy us any additional security. It has shown again and again as being ineffective at thwarting terrorists. Anything that only means that terrorists have to change tactics or targets is basically useless.

Producing a good or service that has a high cost but no value is something that goes completely counter to the free market ideology you normally defend, which makes it strange that you keep proposing it. 

What really "thwarts" terrorism is old fashioned police work and intelligence, and most importantly, refusing to let them dictate how we go by our daily business. Refusing to be terrorized, in other words.

And stop being worried about terrorism. The only thing you need to know about terrorism is that it is so vanishingly rare that you are more likely to die in an accident involving your dish washer than in a terrorist attack.


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## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> It is just about thwarting terrorists.


What kind of purpose would you expect from platform doors in the context
of terrorism prevention ?

As far as I know, platform doors are used for two purposes :

- suicide prevention
- "track protection" where driverless trains are used

The first objective works reasonably well on lines that are otherwise entirely
and effectively sealed, that is, only for underground/subway/tube lines.
For classical railways lines that run mainly "in the open" and are not sealable,
there is no interest in installing platform doors since suicidal people will find
umpteen other spots along the line to do away with themselves if they so 
wish.

Installations in conjunction with driverless trains is even more debatable,
I think. It's supposed to be there to prevent people from wandering or
falling on the track, because a driverless train would fail to notice the
obstacle. But with human-driven trains, it's almost impossible to stop
in time anyway...

None of those objectives are related to terrorism and I fail to understand
what platform doors could achieve in terms of terrorism prevention.


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## makita09

Don't be silly. Everything is about terrorists, terrorism, and stopping terrorism. Suburbanist, as you can tell, is positively terrified.

All trains should be mounted with a GAU-8/A Avenger 30mm on the nose, remotely controlled by a CIA operative in front of a PC in Utah, and all potential threats should be met with a strafing all the way along the platform. That'll show 'em.

Not even the terrorists are too stupid to work out that trains can be attacked _outside_ the stations. Suburbanist....hmmm.


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## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> It is not like SNCF is closing! Just buy tickets for the sectors you need.


Exactly, not good when you don't know when you might need them. I find France a difficult country to get around cheaply. TGVs are expensive whenever I have tried them, the autoroutes charge a lot and it is not easy to find cheap bus lines.


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## Zero Gravity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotrice_à_grande_vitess
"In 2008 President of Alstom Transport, Philippe Mellier, stated that an 'AGV Duplex' would be developed, and would become Alstom's double deck train offer (for SNCF) after the TGV 2N2."

I just read this; do we have more on this one? Perhaps pictures or design (concepts)?


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## AlexNL

So far Alstom and SNCF haven't shared anything about a successor to the highly successful Euroduplex (TGV 2N2 Dasye), so unfortunately there isn't anything to share about AGV Duplex. Too bad, because I think it will be a killer train, unlike anything seen before on the European continent.


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## gpjn

Who is responsible for railroad construction in France?


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## AlexNL

The French state and regions order the construction of new lines (such as LGV) or the upgrade of existing lines. Réseau Ferre de France (RFF) is responsible for the maintenance and capacity allocation. The actual maintenance work is carried out by SNCF Infra.


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## Nexis

The Gates need to be fixed here , there isn't that much time between the time they close and train passing...


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## da_scotty

Thats not 160km/h.....


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## MarcVD

Nexis said:


> The Gates need to be fixed here , there isn't that much time between the time they close and train passing...


That's the standard timing.

French motorists are not known for their discipline... Use longer timings
at level crossings, and you will start seeing them driving around the gates.


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## Coccodrillo

Hybrid rail/road tunnel in Vallorcine, near Chamonix:

https://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Vallo...36,6.933779&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-60647945

It's a ~1.8 km tunnel built for the railway but used by cars when the Montets pass road is closed because of snow. Now it has a railway track and a narrow road lane, but it is being upgraded so as to have a wider road lane (paving also the space between the two rails, just like at level crossings). Obviously trains and road vehicles don't use the tunnel at the same time.

Hybrid rail/road tunnels are quite rare. I know of one in Alaska, and one in Seattle (although the latter used only by tramways and urban buses).


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## Nexis

MarcVD said:


> That's the standard timing.
> 
> French motorists are not known for their discipline... Use longer timings
> at level crossings, and you will start seeing them driving around the gates.


There not as patient as the Germans?


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## 437.001

Nexis said:


> There not as patient as the Germans?


They´re not as patient as the Spaniards!


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## Suburbanist

In Italy, IIRC the minimum time of gates down before the train crosses is 30sec.

In the Netherlands, is is much less. I think 40 sec. is the total cycle from lights start flashing and audible alarm blasting till the train starts crossing.

I think at-grade crossings should have at least 90 sec. after the first alert (visual/sound) and at least 60 sec. after gates are completely down safety margins.


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## Attus

da_scotty said:


> Thats not 160km/h.....


As far as I know this double train is 400m long. It crosses this road through 10 seconds. it is 40 m/s = 144 km/h.
The calculation is not precise for I can't see precisely the timespan, it may be let's say 9.5 seconds. In this case the speed is 42.1 m/s = 151 km/h. 
So we can say that the speed is about 140-160 km/h.


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## Zero Gravity

Suburbanist said:


> In Italy, IIRC the minimum time of gates down before the train crosses is 30sec.
> 
> In the Netherlands, is is much less. I think 40 sec. is the total cycle from lights start flashing and audible alarm blasting till the train starts crossing.
> 
> I think at-grade crossings should have at least 90 sec. after the first alert (visual/sound) and at least 60 sec. after gates are completely down safety margins.


I know of atleast 2 crossings at the Südbahn south of Vienna that close somewhere between 2-3 minutes before train passes.
However, it is quite ridiculous since these crossings are closed 70% of the time because the Südbahn is so frequented now..


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## AlexNL

If you close the gates too early (i.e. 2 minutes before a train passes) car drivers and pedestrians will get irritated and will attempt to cross the railway anyway. However, closing them just seconds before a train passes is way too late, the level crossing might still be occupied by then.

In The Netherlands, there's a so called "announcement section" prior to a level crossing. This means that, whenever a train enters that section, the gates will go down. The velocity of the train is not taken into account, which might lead to long queues at the level crossing.

Several measures are being taken to balance safety and convenience. For example:
- The "stop/door-schakeling" (stop and go switch), which is used for stations that are located right next to a level crossing. If the train that is approaching is planned to stop at the station, the gates will remain open (and the signal showing the red aspect) until the train is about to depart. This will prevent level crossings from being closed for minutes on end without a train approaching.
- Engineering company Movares is trialing a dynamic announcement section, in which the speed of the train is taken into account. Since an intercity train may travel at speeds of up to 140 km/h while a cargo train won't go much faster than 80 km/h, this dynamic system will decrease the time during which the gates are down if the approaching train is slower (such as the aforementioned cargo train)


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## Nexis




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## TGV

Hello

Does someone know if the speed of a TGV on the LGV-tracks is constant at 320km/h (or 270, 300 km/h)? 

This because if I calculate the total resistance force at 320km/h on a 3,5% slope of, for example, a TGV POS (A*cw=9m2; mass=390t; Pmax=9,6MW; Rolling resistance coefficient‎ =0,0003) than the total resistance force = 179kN. The force which the engine generates at 320km/h equals about 108kN. This is a difference of 160%. Simple conclusion: the train can’t maintain 320km/h on the 3,5% slope.

But on the LGV-Est the maximum gradient is 3,5% and if I see the YouTube video I get the impression that they run 320km/h the whole length of the LGV Est.

But I think that’s theoretical impossible. If the kinetic energy (Ek= ½ mv2) at the start of the slope is converted to potential energy (Ep) on the slope than the altitude of the train increases (Ep=mgh). But, like in a rollercoaster, the speed of the train decreases when the altitude increases. Also the resistance forces will slow down the train meanwhile the force of the engine will speed up the train. If these forces are multiplied with de distance travelled (x) they are converted to work (W=F*x). The potential energy between v0 (at the start of the slope) and v0 (at distance x on the slope) can be calculated with (where Wr=Work of resistance forces and We=Work of engine force):

Ekv0 – Ekv1 – Wr + We = Ep with Ep=m*g*sin(slope)*x

Rewrite to calculate the speed v1 after travelled distance x on the slope:

v1= √(2*(Ekv0 – Wr +We – Ep)/m)

I used this gradient graph to determine the slope and the length of the slope on the LGV Est between PK210-240 and put this data in excel to plot this graph:










The graph shows a speed drop to 270km/h near the Meuse TGV station. 


So can someone explain if the TGV maintain 320km/h on the LGV Est (or on other lines) or if not what is the speed on a 3,5% slope? 

Maybe someone plotted a speed-time or speed-distance graph with a datalogger on a LGV trip?


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## M-NL

The green and purple lines do not make sense to me. How come on the return trip the TGV POS can maintain 320 km/h on the up slopes where it couldn't the other way? How come the TGV V150 doesn't accellerate on the down slopes?

There used to be a video on YouTube of a ICE3 on the NBS Köln to Frankfurt, showing the force-gauge and the speedo. You can clearly see the AFB in action: dynamic braking on the down slopes not to exceed the maximum speed and full power yet losing speed on the up slopes, indeed kind of like a rollercoaster. I can't imagine the TGV being anything different.


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## TGV

@M-NL

Ah yes for the green and purple Strasbourg-Paris TGVs a negative slope = uphill and a positive slope=downhill. This because they are travelling in opposite direction.

The purple V150 graph is to check my calculations with the recored speed of the record run as a reference. Although my calculations are very rough the speed drop at PK225 is visible in both graphs.


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## TGV

M-NL said:


> There used to be a video on YouTube of a ICE3 on the NBS Köln to Frankfurt, showing the force-gauge and the speedo. You can clearly see the AFB in action: dynamic braking on the down slopes not to exceed the maximum speed and full power yet losing speed on the up slopes, indeed kind of like a rollercoaster. I can't imagine the TGV being anything different.


You mean this video?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTQT-licNN0

Looks really like a rollercoaster especially at 6:35 

But then the ICE3 confirms the graph (well the principle) is right. A TGV can’t maintain 320km/h on steep slopes. :bash:

if someone has a speed and slope graph of a TGV at full speed please show it :cheers:


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## JumpUp

HeyHo,

last december there were rumours of the start of new border-crossing IC trains (2-3 services a day) on those two lines.

Lyon-Torino
(Marseille?)-Nice-Ventimiglia-Milano

Does anybody know if there is still a future for those trains? Are they still planning to start such a service in April?

Thank you very!


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## 437.001

*News: the new by-pass at Nîmes has been opened*.
It allows trains to/from Alès and beyond (Mende, Clermont-Ferrand) to get directly to Nîmes station without having to enter Nîmes station backwards.



UT596001 said:


> Lo prometido es deuda:
> 
> La salida de Nîmes hacia tanto Clermont-Ferrand cómo hacia Aviñon y Marsella se realiza a través de un viaducto que cruza toda la ciudad, de hecho la estación está en el viaducto. Lo mismo que existe actualmente en la ciudad de Gerona, vaya.
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## 437.001

*Cuts because of the floods in the Spanish and French Pyrenees*.

The *line Toulouse-Tarbes-Pau-Puyoo-Bayonne* is cut near Coarraze-Nay station (between Pau and Lourdes), since the river Gave de Pau ate 20m of the railway platform, leaving the rails hanging. This cut involves the TGV Paris-Pau-Lourdes-Tarbes (no service between Pau and Tarbes), and also the IC services between Toulouse and Hendaye, and the TER regional trains.

The *line Montrejeau-Luchon* is also cut due to the floods of river Garonne that have heavily affected both Spain and France.
Depending on the scale of the damages, this line could be closed, since it was in very bad state anyway.


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## Think

437.001 said:


> the IC services between Toulouse and Hendaye


Some years ago that train was overtaken by a TER in the stretch Bayonne-Hendaye, so it was faster to change to the TER in Bayonne that to stay in the IC. You saved like 8-10 minutes. The two options were shown on the sales system, and the TER option gave better connections with Euskotren, so there were people who changed to the TER instead of staying in the IC.


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## Minato ku

*Paris, Gare de Lyon*
The hall 2 is now fully completed.

Shame that they didn't torn down the white little building.
This is the entrance of an underground car park.


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## 437.001

^^ Now that´s a saturated station.


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## Axelferis

yes it's saturated and within 10 years all Paris railways station will be saturated!

A new one at Stdenis Pleyel near stade de france) will be the international terminus for Eurostar because i can't imagine the actual Gare du nord able to absorb the growing traffic :uh:

The eurostar terminus at gare du nord should be redeployed for national trains imo


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## Suburbanist

I think Paris should build a mega "central station" for long-distance, high-speed and international traffic.

The problem is just the location. Contrary to Berlin, London or Madrid, for instance, there isn't much empty space left in central Paris.

At the very least they should connect the lines. Linking Gare du Nord and Gare d'Est with Gare de Lyon (Bercy) and Gare d'Austerlitz doesn't seem to be that difficult with a single 4-track tunnel. However, more expensive work is needed to link Montparnasse and St Lazare with the other 4.


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## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> .Linking Gare du Nord and Gare d'Est with Gare de Lyon (Bercy) and Gare d'Austerlitz doesn't seem to be that difficult with a single 4-track tunnel. However, more expensive work is needed to link Montparnasse and St Lazare with the other 4.


Which at least would link together the 4 stations where they have international trafic. Beats the RER/Metro connections hands down,
I've done it often enough (with children, luggage et al) to know it.


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## 437.001

Axelferis said:


> yes it's saturated and within 10 years all Paris railways station will be saturated!


I don´t think so. Most of them yes, but I think that with the RER E to Mantes, and with an important upgrading of Bercy and Vaugirard stations, something could be done about that. But that´s not an eternal solution either.

Starting to save money for the third and fourth tube between Châtelet and Gare du Nord could allow more room for expanding the RER D by adding some Transilien branches to it (Persan? Luzarches?).



> A new one at Stdenis Pleyel near stade de france) will be the international terminus for Eurostar because i can't imagine the actual Gare du nord able to absorb the growing traffic :uh:


St Denis Pleyel is the same as Carrefour Pleyel? :?



> The eurostar terminus at gare du nord should be redeployed for national trains imo


:sly:


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## Axelferis

St denis pleyel above paris not far from Stade de France.
5 min to Gare du nord with new metro by 2025 (that's why i said within 10 years gare du nord saturated) :cheers:

It will be connected to New metro Line 15 & 16 + extension L14:



Cyril said:


> Version XXL : http://m0.libe.com/photo/2013/03/06/4a9755e1-af28-463b-b150-efe9745b13eb.png
> 
> Source : Libération du 7 mars 2013.
> 
> 
> > http://www.liberation.fr/politiques/2013/03/06/ayrault-recite-son-nouveau-grand-paris_886815
> 
> et à noter :


----------



## 437.001

^^
How much of all this is in works now?

I heard something about the Tangentielle Nord and M14 north of St Lazare, but is there anything else beyond the project stage, apart from RER E?


----------



## Ledindondelafarce

Suburbanist said:


> I think Paris should build a mega "central station" for long-distance, high-speed and international traffic.


That would be a waste of money. To improve connections, the best is to improve services at smaller and less busy TGV stations around Paris such as Marne-la-Vallée or CDG. Others could be built too, a TGV stop at La Défense could definitely be useful. It would also help preventing major terminus stations in Paris from saturation, as it would be easier for people willing to go to the suburbs to reach these stations. 



437.001 said:


> ^^
> How much of all this is in works now?
> 
> I heard something about the Tangentielle Nord and M14 north of St Lazare, but is there anything else beyond the project stage, apart from RER E?


Tangentielle Nord is under-construction. It should be completed by 2018.
Some works have already begun for RER E, digging should begin in 2014. M14 extension digging should begin in 2014 as well.
We'll have to wait a few years to see if the other projects actually get built, especially M16, 17 and 18.


----------



## Axelferis

the whole metro project is 30 billion € ^^
For the railway eurostar station alone it hasn't been fixed yet but Lille europe TGV or roissy TGV station cost each around 200 million € of 1993 :|
You have to X 3 today then you'll have easily something around 700 million€ !


----------



## 437.001

And still they will do all this before doing the third and fourth tubes between Châtelet and Gare du Nord? :?

Overcrowding (and thus also in RER B and RER D) won´t become massive by the time all this gets done? :?


----------



## K_

Axelferis said:


> yes it's saturated and within 10 years all Paris railways station will be saturated!
> 
> A new one at Stdenis Pleyel near stade de france) will be the international terminus for Eurostar because i can't imagine the actual Gare du nord able to absorb the growing traffic :uh:
> 
> The eurostar terminus at gare du nord should be redeployed for national trains imo


GdL is nowhere near saturated at the moment. The station has 22 tracks for about 13-15 departures per hour. 
Gare Du Nord has about 10 departures/h from the "Grand Lignes" part, which has 18 tracks. 
Granted, 4 of those are reserved for Eurostar. But that means that there is still a lot of room for Eurostar services to be increased.
Gare de L'Est is at the moment way below capacity. It has 29(!) tracks, for about 4/5 departures per hour. There's even only one single departure from there between 9 and 10... 

With more and more suburban lines converted in to RER the main terminals are actually getting less, in stead of more trains. I don't think Paris will need a new main line station anytime soon.

Paris should invest in getting those suburban lines that have not yet been converted in to RER integrated in the system, and have them all run through tunnels.

Next to that SNCF should improve the intersector TGV services, and coordinate their schedules better, so that changing stations in Paris would not be needed for most passengers...


----------



## Axelferis

I don't invent the new eurostar station. Traffic will increase in the next 10 years. Where do you live??


----------



## K_

Axelferis said:


> I don't invent the new eurostar station. Traffic will increase in the next 10 years.


How much will it increase?

Currently there is roughly a train every hour. With four platforms Eurostar should be able to easily have about 6 departures and arrivals per hour. They could even go to 16 per hour, if they would accept efficient turnarounds.
So there is plenty of room to grow.



> Where do you live??


Switzerland. Which is why I know from daily experience what a busy station _really_ looks like...


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> With more and more suburban lines converted in to RER the main terminals are actually getting less, in stead of more trains. I don't think Paris will need a new main line station anytime soon.


Are you thinking about a future RER F between Pont Cardinet and Vaugirard via Haussmann St Lazare/Auber-Invalides-Montparnasse-Vaugirard-Vanves Malakoff?



> Paris should invest in getting those suburban lines that have not yet been converted in to RER integrated in the system, and have them all run through tunnels.


I understand that it´s a good idea to give priority to the Paris-Mantes la Jolie HSL.

I also understand that RER E between Haussman St Lazare and Mantes la Jolie is the top priority.

But I can´t understand how the third and fourth tubes between Châtelet and Gare du Nord aren´t given priority.


----------



## Ledindondelafarce

Any new RER apart from RER E extension, RER D's "barreau de gonnesse" and possible construction of a proper tunnel for RER D between GDN and CLH is pure fantasy. New RER lines is not what Paris needs, but increased reliability and capacity on existing lines.

Even though RER E extension to the West and new line between Saint-Lazare and Mantes-La-Jolie are linked, the new line is -unfortunately- probably not going to be built soon, as it is expensive and politically complicated. If built, it wouldn't be a HSL, maximum speed should be around 200km/h, but that's enough as most of the trains expected on this line are medium-distance trains to Normandy.

Studies for the building of a new tunnel for RER D between Gare du Nord and Les Halles have begun more than one year ago and the results should have been communicated to the public by now. We're not even sure that this tunnel is technically feasible, other options such as building a new tunnel from Gare du Nord to Gare de Lyon via République could be studied. Once the studies are done, then the project will be able to go to a step further, just like RER E extension to the West.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Coincidentally, just before this conversation started I had a look to see how long does the Intercity train between Bordeaux and Nice (without connections required) do, and it was almost 9 hours. On the highway it's 7 hours (according to GMaps), so isn't that Intercity a bit slow? Even when compared to other Intercity trains.


----------



## ab_ltf

^^^^

Exactly that is the point. It takes roughly 9 hours by train from Nice to Bordeaux. 

Even the TGV from Nice to Paris takes 6 hours....

So most of the times people take airlines, given the fact that this again is not a cheap option.


----------



## LtBk

From what I read, even UK(which is just as centralized) has better railway connections between provincial cities compared to France.


----------



## 437.001

LtBk said:


> From what I read, even UK(which is just as centralized) has better railway connections between provincial cities compared to France.


It depends on the case. In France, the UK and Spain there are some good transversal routes, some average routes, and some bad routes.

I´d say it´s Spain the one to have the worst transversal routes.


----------



## 437.001

*Advice: please, avoid Montpellier-Saint Roch station if you can help it for some time.
It´s under heavy upgrading works and it´s really a mess these days.*

Yesterday I had a day off, so I decided to spend the day in Montpellier, and the station there was total chaos.

They announced three TGVs (to be leaving in the space of 10 minutes) on the same platform. Not that bad apparently, but when the three TGVs concerned happen to be at 5.30pm and no less than a Montpellier-Paris Gare de Lyon, a Montpellier-Geneva, and a Paris Gare de Lyon-Barcelona, OOPS!

There were like more than 1000 people on the platform, which is not particularly wide. 
I thought I was in the Paris metro at the morning rush hour on lines 13 or 4. :nuts:


----------



## LtBk

437.001 said:


> It depends on the case. In France, the UK and Spain there are some good transversal routes, some average routes, and some bad routes.
> 
> I´d say it´s Spain the one to have the worst transversal routes.


How bad is it in Spain?


----------



## 437.001

LtBk said:


> How bad is it in Spain?


:| 

As bad as some of them were closed in 1985 and you have to go through Madrid since that is the only choice. 

For instance, to go from Murcia to Granada the only way is either via Madrid or Alcázar de San Juan (Madrid is longer but faster), when if the transversal route had not been closed it would take much less time.

To go from Cáceres to Salamanca the only way is through Madrid, a detour that takes hundreds of kilometres.

Look at a map and you´ll understand why I say this... :cripes:

In France, travel time might not be top notch, and there might not be the best frequencies, but you can travel the whole country by-passing Paris.
In Britain too, more or less (although Britain has a different shape).


----------



## LtBk

Any plans in rebuilding the lines?


----------



## 437.001

LtBk said:


> Any plans in rebuilding the lines?


No, but in the case of Murcia, there´s the Murcia-Almeria new line under (now halted) construction, which is supposed to make up for that stupid closure.

==============================================================================================

Now, back to France.

Yesterday I went to Montpellier, as I said, and saw the start of the future Montpellier-Nimes, which is in works, next to Villeneuve-lès-Maguelone station on the Montpellier side. Is the rest of the section advancing? The works in there are really just started (or as if they just had).

On the other hand, I have a question. I read on a French railways mag that the reopening of the Sorgues-Carpentras is supposed to happen by the end of the year (the pictures accompanying the article were quite visual, and I believe that date). Which leads to the question: will the historical Carpentras station building be reused as station building or will they do a "Grasse" thing (maintaining the old station for non-rail purpose and building a new station building next to it)?


----------



## parcdesprinces

LtBk said:


> From what I read, even UK(which is just as centralized) has better railway connections between provincial cities compared to France.


Don't forget that Great-Britain is way smaller than France, so transversal routes are way shorter there than over here.


----------



## 437.001

parcdesprinces said:


> Don't forget that Great-Britain is way smaller than France, so transversal routes are way shorter there than over here.


Still, some of them are not ok, so many of them are still unelectrified (although yes, the Government are doing something at last).

===========================================================================================

In France, the only unelectrified sections of the main transversal lines are Bordeaux-Saintes-La Rochelle-La Roche sur Yon, Dol de Bretagne-Saint Lô, Tours-Le Mans-Alençon-Surdon-Argentan-Mézidon, Serquigny-Oissel, Amiens-Laon-Reims-Saint Hilaire au Temple, Saint Dizier-Chaumont-Culmont Chalindrey, Chagny-Montchanin-Étang sur Arroux-Nevers, Saint Germain au Mont d´Or-Le Coteau-Saint Germain des Fossés/Saint Etienne... 

...and that´s about it, the rest are electrified (and many of these have seen some sort of planning about its eventual electrification).

In my opinion, Bordeaux-La Roche sur Yon should be upgraded and electrified. The others too, in particular the two Saint Germains and its Saint Etienne branch (which would allow Lyon-Nantes all-electric), Nevers-Chagny (same for Luxembourg/Germany/Strasbourg-Nantes), and Chalindrey-Chaumont-Saint Dizier/Saint Hilaire-Reims-Laon-Amiens (same for a Britain-southern France, Paris-avoiding route for freight).


----------



## LtBk

It's the speed really, not the amount of transverse routes each country has.


----------



## 437.001

LtBk said:


> It's the speed really, not the amount of transverse routes each country has.


It´s not so easy. Sometimes it´s more what it serves rather than just the speed.


----------



## Sunfuns

France is a big country (and so is Spain), difficult to expect amazingly fast service from one corner to another. 

Out of curiosity I checked several long distance routes in France (Nice-Lille, Nice-Brest, Lille-Bayonne, Strasbourg-Bayonne, Brest-Perpignan) and only the last one takes longer by train than by a car. It's just that distances are too large and times too long for most travellers...


----------



## BE0GRAD

437.001 said:


> It depends on the case. In France, the UK and Spain there are some good transversal routes, some average routes, and some bad routes.
> 
> I´d say it´s Spain the one to have the worst transversal routes.


What is a transversal route? One that doesn't lead to the capital?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> France is a big country (and so is Spain), difficult to expect amazingly fast service from one corner to another.
> 
> Out of curiosity I checked several long distance routes in France (Nice-Lille, Nice-Brest, Lille-Bayonne, Strasbourg-Bayonne, Brest-Perpignan) and only the last one takes longer by train than by a car. It's just that distances are too large and times too long for most travellers...


Brest-Perpignan takes longer by train than by car because there is no direct train (not that I know), and because the section Bordeaux-La Roche sur Yon isn´t electrified and the tracks are in bad state, in particular the section La Rochelle-La Roche sur Yon (and also Quimper-Landerneau if you want to avoid Rennes).

And also because it´s the only one of the ones you named that has no section on a HSL, all the others do.



BE0GRAD said:


> What is a transversal route? One that doesn't lead to the capital?


Yes.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Brest-Perpignan takes longer by train than by car because there is no direct train (not that I know), and because the section Bordeaux-La Roche sur Yon isn´t electrified and the tracks are in bad state, in particular the section La Rochelle-La Roche sur Yon (and also Quimper-Landerneau if you want to avoid Rennes).
> 
> And also because it´s the only one of the ones you named that has no section on a HSL, all the others do.


All that is true of course, perhaps I could have picked worse examples. As for no HSL on Brest-Perpignan route that will change in few years when Paris-Brodeaux line opens and even more when (if?) Bordeux-Tolouse line is built.


----------



## BE0GRAD

OK, I think I figured out about transversal routes. My question was premature.



TedStriker said:


> The large cargo volumes seen along the Rhine do not detract from the fact that the rail lines along the right bank of the Rhine wonderfully illustrate just how clever Europe's rail system can be in channeling large numbers of freight trains, many of them intermodal in nature, within a short space of time, and that this kind of efficiency will always be more important in Europe than the efficiency of running freight trains that are twice the European 700-800 metre standard length.


Do the rail and river transport complement each other or are they competitors? What is their respective position toward road transport?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> All that is true of course, perhaps I could have picked worse examples. As for no HSL on Brest-Perpignan route that will change in few years when Paris-Brodeaux line opens and even more when (if?) Bordeux-Tolouse line is built.


Both will be built, the latter not only because of the services to Paris, but also because of the transversal Grand Sud services (Bordeaux-Toulouse-Narbonne-Montpellier-Marseille-Toulon-Nice).

It is believed that once the HSL section Nimes-Montpellier opens, all the current Intercités trains (formerly called Corail Téoz) will become TGVs, since the whole Montpellier-Marseille stretch will be on a HSL.

On the other hand, I´m not sure that one the HSL to Bordeaux the services to Brittany from Aquitaine will be rerouted via Tours, cities such as Saintes, La Rochelle and La Roche sur Yon would lose many connections.


----------



## parcdesprinces

437.001 said:


> Brest-Perpignan takes longer by train than by car because there is no direct train (not that I know), and because the section Bordeaux-La Roche sur Yon isn´t electrified and the tracks are in bad state, in particular the section La Rochelle-La Roche sur Yon (and also Quimper-Landerneau if you want to avoid Rennes).


The fastest (approx. 10h45 including 30-40 minutes to change trains) Brest-Perpignan is via Rennes and Montpellier, it doesn't use the sections you mentioned above. Actually it uses the direct Rennes-Montpellier TGV which takes approx. 6 hours and stops in Le Mans, Massy-TGV, Lyon-Part-Dieu, Valence-TGV & Nîmes.


----------



## Suburbanist

ECTS badly needed there. 

Mechanical signaling should have been abolished altogether already.


----------



## M-NL

What's wrong with KVB? It is a requirement on pretty much all French rolling stock en provides more or less the same functions as ETC L1.

As far as i know Germany also still has a lot of mechanical signals in use, but I agree with you that they are obsolete.


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> What's wrong with KVB?


Technically, nothing... But as it is not THE european standard, it cannot be imposed. So SNCF deployed it everywhere, but RFF cannot require the presence of the equipment for the foreign or private companies that want to operate on the french network. We have the same problem in Belgium with TBL1+.


----------



## M-NL

^^That may be a misunderstanding. The rule, as far as I know, is that you cannot require a safety system that was implemented after the introduction of ETCS, hence the problem with TBL1+. KVB, just as any other pre-ETCS system (TVM, PZB/LZB and ATB to name a few), can (and are) a requirement.

There are also limitations for existing systems: You can't require implementation of a change to your pre-ETCS system implemented after the introduction of ETCS. The Netherlands, for instance, was not allowed to implement a previously unused ATB-code for 160 km/h running. Also Germany can't enforce a PZB software update.

The TBL1+ problem is the same as with ATB-VV in the Netherlands, which I think is the greatest shortcoming in the current regulations. Any easy to implement safety improving change short of a switch to ETCS can't be made mandatory. I, for one, would have allowed obligation of any system that greatly improves safety as long as it exclusively uses ETCS hardware.


----------



## dimlys1994

Today:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/.../regiolis-approved-for-passenger-service.html
> 
> *Régiolis approved for passenger service*
> 26 Mar 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRANCE: Alstom reports that its Régiolis multiple-unit is now expected to enter passenger service with SNCF on April 22. What the manufacturer describes as ‘an important milestone' in the Régiolis commissioning programme was reached on March 21 when safety regulator EPSF issued its approval for the new train type to enter revenue service, having considered its safety case.
> 
> A total of 182 Régiolis multiple-units have been ordered by 12 French regions under a framework contract signed by Alstom and SNCF in 2009. From an initial batch of 100, the first trains are due to enter service next month in Alsace, Aquitaine, Lorraine and Picardie.
> 
> The approvals process has involved 10 pre-series trainsets covering 350 000 km over 1 400 days of testing, involving 20 different organisations including SNCF, RFF, Eurailtest and Certifer. On a site leased from RFF for 15 years, Alstom has built a test centre at Bar-le-Duc in eastern France at a cost of €17m, equipped with a test track for dynamic trials at up to 160 km/h.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/04/01/eu-funding-for-france-italy-line-studies/
> 
> *EU funding for France-Italy line studies*
> 1 APR, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Monte Carlo railway station, photo by Serjio74 via shutterstock.com_
> 
> TEN-T Programme funding from the EU is to finance early studies into a planned upgrade to a section of railway linking France and Italy.
> 
> The line, which connects Mandelieu in France and Ventimiglia in Italy, is popular with tourists travelling to and from the Principality of Monaco, with the section between Nice and Monaco being the busiest in the country outside of Paris.
> 
> The European Union will provide €2.3 million to conduct initial studies. These will include traffic analysis and feasibility, technical and environmental studies


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Nice article:



> *New high-speed rail link from Paris: Breakfast in London, dinner in Barcelona*
> 
> I pulled into the stark new concrete station of Figueres-Vilafant on the Costa Brava aboard a train from Paris, and did something that felt very novel. I remained in my seat. Then I gazed out at the darkness for four minutes until the train accelerated smoothly away to continue its high-speed journey south.
> 
> Until very recently, I would have disembarked and crossed the platform to a Spanish train to complete the journey. The new service ends 150 years of Spanish rail isolation (with the exception of a short experiment in the 1960s) which resulted from the fateful choice, in 1844, of a wider gauge track – six Castilian feet wide – than George Stephenson’s standard gauge, as adopted by the French. The Figueres link is the final element in a long process – Eurostar, French TGV, Spanish AVE, new tunnels, stations, sections of high-speed line – that have whittled the journey time down to the point where it is now possible to breakfast in London, lunch in Paris and dine in Barcelona.
> 
> [...]


http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...st-in-london-dinner-in-barcelona-9254210.html


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/04/29/e200m-to-be-spent-upgrading-bordeaux-saint-jean-station/
> 
> *€200m to be spent upgrading Bordeaux Saint-Jean station*
> 29 APR, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Photo by RFF / CAPA / Richard Nourry (TOMA)_
> 
> RFF and SNCF have launched a joint €200 million scheme to renovate Bordeaux Saint-Jean station ready for the inauguration of the Tours-Bordeaux TGV in 2017.
> 
> The three-year programme is made up of 14 separate projects designed to improve reliability of rail services in the Aquitaine region and allow the station to accommodate the additional seven million passengers expected to use the it from 2017.
> 
> As well as extending the station itself and modernising the current interior, money will be spent renewing track and building new maintenance facilities for TGV and TER vehicles.
> 
> The 302-kilometre Tours-Bordeaux HSL will reduce journey times between the cities to just over two hours.
> 
> RFF has already awarded the Vinci-led LISEA consortium a 50-year concession to maintain and renew the €7.8 billion route. The agreement requires SNCF to pay LISEA a fee to use the line


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/04/30/first-regiolis-enters-service/
> 
> *First Régiolis enters service*
> 30 APR, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Photo by Alstom Transport / TOMA – V. Baillais.Photo: Alstom Transport / TOMA – V. Baillais_
> 
> A ceremony has been held at Vaugirard station in Paris to celebrate the commissioning of the first of hundreds of new Régiolis trains ordered for the French regions.
> 
> Alstom, which has marketed the Régiolis as France’s next-generation regional train, has so far sold 182 units to 12 regions – all of which will be operated and maintained by SNCF.
> 
> Orders to date represent an investment of €1.4 billion.
> 
> Frédéric Cuvillier, the French Minister for Transport, Alain Rousset, president of the association of French regions (ARF) and President of the Aquitaine region, Jacques Auxiette, President of the Pays de la Loire region, Guillaume Pepy, president of SNCF and Henri Poupart-Lafarge, president of Alstom Transport, attended the event on April 29.
> 
> The Regiolis trains, which are based on Alstom’s Coradia Polyvalent platform, come in both dual mode and electric models. The vehicles are being delivered in three, four and six-car formations, with the longest having a capacity of over 1,000 passengers.
> 
> In total, 216 Coradia Polyvalent trainsets have been purchased by SNCF and the French regions, with 182 Régiolis sets ordered for regional TER services and 34 Coradia Liner vehicles procured for the renewal of SNCF Intercity trains.
> 
> Delivery of the new trains will continue until 2017


----------



## Sopomon

^^
What's with all the roof machinery being left uncovered?


----------



## AlexNL

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> What's with all the roof machinery being left uncovered?


I'm guessing that by leaving the equipment uncovered it's easier to use the air stream for ventilation and cooling as the train moves.


----------



## Minato ku

Régiolis (TER Picardie, line Paris - Laon)


----------



## 437.001

^^ *(dimlys1994)*
I like Laon and its Poma 2000.


----------



## ab_ltf

dimlys1994 said:


> From Global Rail News:


This is really encouraging. Given the tourist flow in the region.


----------



## EMArg

Paris and its suburbs from the RER train who goes from the city to Versailles:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-cote-dazur-new-line-project.html?channel=542
> 
> *Cuvillier accelerates Provence – Côte d’Azur new line project*
> 12 May 2014
> 
> _FRANCE's secretary of state for transport, Mr Frédéric Cuvillier, has asked for studies for priority sections of a new line linking Marseille, Toulon and Nice to be accelerated with a view to obtaining a declaration of public utility for the project by 2017._
> 
> Two priority sections for a line serving Provence and Côte d'Azur have been identified. The first involves the construction of an underground line in Marseille with platforms beneath St Charles station, plus a fourth track between Marseille and Aubagne to the east. This would relieve congestion in Marseille and double the capacity of the regional rail network.
> 
> The second scheme entails the construction of a line from a planned station at Nice Airport to join the Nice - Grasse line. The objective is to provide a TER loop serving the west of the Alpes-Maritimes area, allowing improved regional services particularly for the Sophia-Antipolis technology park between Antibes and Nice and to Monaco and Ventimiglia on the Italian border


----------



## ab_ltf

^^

Indeed a welcome move. The Côte d'Azur inspite of all the glitz and glamour and jet set has a railway infrastructure that is saturated.


----------



## K_

ab_ltf said:


> ^^ Indeed a welcome move. The Côte d'Azur inspite of all the glitz and glamour and jet set has a railway infrastructure that is saturated.


Looking at the timetable for that line it doesn't give the impression of being saturated. Most of the line only has two trains per hour.


----------



## ab_ltf

Not to forget that lots of commuters right way from Cannes, Nice, Ventimillga and far us ethe train network to come to Monte Carlo for work.


Add to this the seasonal tourist rush and that leads to cramped up trains.


----------



## Minato ku

K_ said:


> Looking at the timetable for that line it doesn't give the impression of being saturated. Most of the line only has two trains per hour.


There are not just TER trains running on this line but TGV and other intercity services, Freight trains...
There are only two tracks on the west of Nice central station.


----------



## JumpUp

The name V200 reminds me of Fyra V250!

bad marketing?


----------



## dimlys1994

More photos:

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr

Coradia Liner V200 by Alstom - Official account, on Flickr


----------



## Robi_damian

Hate the wide open interior design. Looks like a suburban train. What is wrong with an ICE3 or Virgin Pendolino type layout?


----------



## telemaxx

What is the access height? 76 cm? 55 cm?


----------



## M-NL

The standard platform height in France is 55 cm.


----------



## Stravinsky

^^ Very stylish design!


----------



## telemaxx

M-NL said:


> The standard platform height in France is 55 cm.


Sorry, I meant the train. On the rendering it looks like a stepless entrance. What's the official English term for that?

So is it a train with 55 cm in large parts? That would be quite revolutionary, wouldn't it?


----------



## flierfy

telemaxx said:


> So is it a train with 55 cm in large parts? That would be quite revolutionary, wouldn't it?


Not particularly revolutionary. It follows existing blue prints of slower trainsets. That's all. What the picture don't show is the circumstance that the trains will have steps inside. A necessary evil at this entrance level which is far from ideal and which several TOCs like to avoid.


----------



## K_

flierfy said:


> Not particularly revolutionary. It follows existing blue prints of slower trainsets. That's all. What the picture don't show is the circumstance that the trains will have steps inside. A necessary evil at this entrance level which is far from ideal and which several TOCs like to avoid.


Stadler's IC250 sets have step-less entrance at both 55 and 76 cm, and no steps inside, except for the two end cars. So it seems to be possible, but at the expense of some capacity.
I wonder if a 250 kph version of this train is what Astlom offered SBB For its NEAT trains. It looks conceptually quite similar.


----------



## dimlys1994

From BBC:



> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27834569
> 
> *France rail strike halts many trains*
> 13 June 2014
> 
> _A nationwide strike by train staff in France has halted many rail services and is set to run into the weekend_
> 
> The strike began on Tuesday and is one of the longest to hit the railways. It has halted about half of inter-city trains and even more local trains.
> 
> Trade unions object to a government plan to unite the SNCF train operator with the RFF railway network. Workers fear the reform will mean job losses.
> 
> The strike could affect students who will shortly sit school-leaving exams.
> 
> The Eurostar service via the Channel Tunnel is unaffected so far.
> 
> The French President, Francois Hollande, has urged the unions to go back to work. But the unions say the proposed merger of SNCF and RFF operations does not go far enough, and they want the government to take on the two firms' combined debt of 40bn euros (£32bn; $54bn)


----------



## ab_ltf

Oh dear so on and so forth the strike continues taking it's toll on unawary passengers....

Was stuck up in Nicelast week for more than 3 hours.


----------



## 437.001

^^
The AVE Barcelona-Toulouse and Barcelona-Lyon have been cancelled because of that.

Honest, when the French go on strike, sometimes it´s really annoying, more than elsewhere.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The French don't like to work. I was left in Barcelona/Zürich/Milan two or three times because of a strike calceling a TrenHotel.

And the record I know of are 46 days of uninterrupted strike of Marseille's public transport workers.


----------



## JumpUp

How many days will the strike go on? is there an ending soon?


----------



## Sunfuns

Somehow French public has a very high tolerance of strikes (not just public transport). Otherwise they wouldn't happen so regularly. I'm sure Germans or Spanish could also find something to strike for...


----------



## XAN_

Well, I still remember that sign in Lugano back in 2010 stating (don't remember the exact text, though) something like "Transit company isn`t liable for bad whether conditions or strikes on Italian side of lake"
Totally like the subtle way of implying that strikes don`t happen in Switzerland ;-)


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Somehow French public has a very high tolerance of strikes (not just public transport). Otherwise they wouldn't happen so regularly. I'm sure Germans or Spanish could also find something to strike for...


Anything. I´m not objecting against the right the French (or anybody else) have to go on strike.
What I´m questioning is its frequency. I can only speak for Spain, but I find that strikes in France are very frequent.
They go on strike much more often than the Spanish, and for reasons that are sometimes very trivial and over-the-top.

And precisely I had in my mind a trip to Toulouse that I´ve had to postpone for that very reason. Not like it´s the end of the world nor anything, mind you, I´ll just go sometime later, but they´ve just spoiled my holidays a bit. 

I´m not sure about the French tolerance to strikes... :hmm: ...more than tolerance, I´d say holy patience. et:


----------



## K_

XAN_ said:


> Well, I still remember that sign in Lugano back in 2010 stating (don't remember the exact text, though) something like "Transit company isn`t liable for bad whether conditions or strikes on Italian side of lake" Totally like the subtle way of implying that strikes don`t happen in Switzerland ;-)


Public transport strikes are indeed extremely rare in Switzerland. Last railway strike was in 1918...


----------



## TedStriker

I think the problem is that neither the French politicians nor the public have the stomach to push for reforms of the transport unions. 

The French generally I think believe the unions are arseholes but I think life in France would have to get really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really (I could go on) bad before any kind of union reform arises.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Coccodrillo said:


> The French don't like to work.


That's just a dumb stereotype. Read this (written by a British): http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/22/france-work-ethic-flaneurs-on-treadmill

You may not like social and professional categories having a culture of fighting for rights, but at least don't resort to dumb stereotypes.


----------



## AlexNL

For those who might be interested, SNCF has published data about the consequences of social actions since 1947.

https://ressources.data.sncf.com/explore/dataset/conflits-sociaux-depuis-1947/?tab=table


----------



## LtBk

alexandru.mircea said:


> That's just a dumb stereotype. Read this (written by a British): http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/22/france-work-ethic-flaneurs-on-treadmill
> 
> You may not like social and professional categories having a culture of fighting for rights, but at least don't resort to dumb stereotypes.


Nothing wrong with strikes or fighting for better labor rights, but the amount of strikes that have occurred in France tells me that there is something wrong with the labor or working conditions in that country.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

LtBk said:


> Nothing wrong with strikes or fighting for better labor rights, but the amount of strikes that have occurred in France tells me that there is something wrong with the labor or working conditions in that country.


Definitely. Dunno how much it is perception but it does feel like transport strikes are by far the most common ones. This time it's quite big, in response to some important legislation that's being discussed (not read about it more yet), and the personnel isn't relaxing but taking it to the streets. But on other occasions it's just stuff like train conductors wanting some more bonuses and privileges on top of the awesome privileges they already have, and then everyone will be annoyed.


----------



## ren0312

Robi_damian said:


> Hate the wide open interior design. Looks like a suburban train. What is wrong with an ICE3 or Virgin Pendolino type layout?


How fast do normal trains in France go?


----------



## K_

LtBk said:


> Nothing wrong with strikes or fighting for better labor rights, but the amount of strikes that have occurred in France tells me that there is something wrong with the labor or working conditions in that country.


 Nowadays unions mostly to on strike to preserve privileges, not for "rights". Compared to the rest of the country railway workers have it excellent.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Had a look over this summary (in French): http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs...rquoi-la-sncf-fait-greve_4437758_4355770.html

This time it doesn't seem to be about stuff like wages, bonuses, days off, pensions etc, but about the way structural reform is done so that it benefits everyone. Some of the stuff is quite abstract (but I remember the issue of the separation between the rail infrastructure authority being previously discussed in this thread) but some of the minor, punctual demands about the "re-humanisation" of traveling I actually quite liked.


----------



## 437.001

alexandru.mircea said:


> Definitely. Dunno how much it is perception but it does feel like transport strikes are by far the most common ones.


Or maybe the most visible ones abroad? :hmm:



alexandru.mircea said:


> This time it's quite big, in response to some important legislation that's being discussed (not read about it more yet), and the personnel isn't relaxing but taking it to the streets.


I acknowledge the way they stand up for what they believe are their rights.
I won´t deny that.

But...



alexandru.mircea said:


> But on other occasions it's just stuff like train conductors wanting some more bonuses and privileges on top of the awesome privileges they already have, and then everyone will be annoyed.


Indeed. The city of Marseille in particular has made a local trademark out of that.
Even inside of France, Marseille is regarded as the 'strike city'.

Needless to say, I´ve suffered one Marseille rail strike too (I was travelling from Marseille to Nice), and apparently some of the Sncf workers at Marseille-St Charles station went on strike because they didn´t like their new chairs at their staff room or some (unbelievable elsewhere) story of the like.

On the other hand, this coexists with the most used commuter rail line in Europe (the RER A in Paris, although perhaps it may be rivalled by London´s Crossrail 1 soon -or not, we´ll see), and the TGV service which is overall really good, and normally railways in France are more reliable than in Germany, for instance (not sure about the UK).


----------



## LtBk

Are the working conditions good for the average French worker? Sorry for being off-topic.


----------



## Minato ku

LtBk said:


> Nothing wrong with strikes or fighting for better labor rights, but the amount of strikes that have occurred in France tells me that there is something wrong with the labor or working conditions in that country.


There aren't many strike in France, in private sector there are very few strike.
It is in the public sector where the strike are common and it depends of the companies.
By examples, strike are quite uncommon in the RATP network (except for the RER B).

The reality is not so much the working condition but the social climate, there are a lot of tensions between between unions and employers.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/freight/single-view/view/swap-bodies-to-carry-mail-by-rail.html
> 
> *Swap bodies to carry mail by rail*
> 23 Jun 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRANCE: The post office announced on June 19 a three-year €100m investment programme that will see mail moving by rail in swap bodies from a new terminal to be built at Bonneuil-sur-Marne in the southeastern suburbs of Paris. Due to open towards the end of 2015 at a cost of €23m, the new terminal will replace that at Paris-Charolais used by the dedicated fleet of postal TGV trainsets.
> 
> La Poste says that moving mail by TGV no longer meets the changing requirements of its customers. From the end of 2015 bulk mail, newspapers and magazines and small freight consignments will be handled in swap bodies, with ‘at least 20’ moving on flat wagons between the Paris region and other terminals across France every day.
> 
> By 2017, the volume of mail moving by rail is expected to grow to exceed by 30% the capacity of the current TGV service, with La Poste aiming to become ‘a major operator’ in the intermodal sector. By consolidating operations from two road terminals, the new facility at Bonneuil-sur-Marne is expected to reduce lorry movements by 638 000 km a year, producing an annual saving of 1 800 tonnes in CO2 emissions


----------



## nanar

ren0312 said:


> How fast do normal trains in France go?


Around 120 / 160 km ph


----------



## K_

nanar said:


> Around 120 / 160 km ph


Except where they do 200-220 kph...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ement-project-makes-progress.html?channel=542
> 
> *French track safety improvement project makes progress*
> Thursday, June 26, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FRENCH National Railways (SNCF) and French Rail Network (RFF) are making considerable progress under the €410m four-year Vigirail project to improve the safety of points and modernise track maintenance according to a report presented to the SNCF board.
> 
> Vigirail was launched in October 2013 and includes the three recommendations to improve track safety following the preliminary report by the Office of Land Transport Accident Inquiries (BEA-TT) into the derailment of a Paris - Limoges Intercity train. This was caused by a dislodged fishplate in a set of points at Brétigny-sur-Orge south of Paris on July 12 2013 which resulted in the death of seven people with 32 injured.
> 
> One of the main objectives of Vigirail is to increase the number of turnouts being replaced annually from 326 in 2013 to 500 by 2017, with a doubling of turnout replacement in the Ile de France area. This will necessitate an industrialisation of the renewal process, and tests using flat wagons and Kirow cranes are planned between October and June 2015. It is hoped to replace 365 turnouts next year, while all the turnouts to be replaced in 2015 and 2016 have been identified.
> 
> This year SNCF plans to test three machines which can detect plain line anomalies by video and two machines to survey track devices by video. These machines will enter service next year following certification.
> 
> Early this year, 300 staff tested three prototype electronic systems for track maintenance inspection and monitoring the annual maintenance plan, while seven more systems are being developed. It is planned to deploy these systems on smartphones or tablets for use by 13,000 staff starting in March 2015.
> 
> A system to communicate anomalies on the network in real time called Alert Express will start to be rolled out across the network on July 1. In September, SNCF and RFF will begin to equip training centres with a 3D system to train track inspection and maintenance staff. Both systems should be fully operational nationally by the start of 2015


----------



## kyah117

You should stop copying the entire article, it's forbidden :


Articles


> Quoting long and full articles from external sources is not the proper way to start a discussion or to use as an argument. Fair use of a source means:
> 
> 1. name and link the source
> 
> 2. quote a maximum of about 100 words


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/announcement.php?f=3774&a=802


----------



## oluocheli

Lovely progress. Regards, Peter Oluoch, http://dvcaf.uonbi.ac.ke


----------



## TedStriker

CFL Multimodal opens new combined train route

http://www.transportjournal.com/hom...ultimodal-opens-new-combined-train-route.html

Can someone shed light on the loading gauge from Bettembourg down to Lyon please? 

I thought that standard 4m-high semi-trailers could only be carried along this route on the special Modalohr wagons that SNCF uses for VIIA services.

But if the press photo is correct this new service is using standard piggyback wagons which are a few millimetres higher than the Modalohr wagons.

Has RFF enlarged the loading gauge recently north of Lyon?


----------



## dimlys1994

New TGV Strasbourg – Brussels service via LGV Est line will launch in 2016. More you can find here:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ourg-–-brussels-tgvs-in-2016.html?channel=542


----------



## Suburbanist

dimlys1994 said:


> New TGV Strasbourg – Brussels service via LGV Est line will launch in 2016. More you can find here:
> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ourg-–-brussels-tgvs-in-2016.html?channel=542


They should extend this service to NEtherlands as well.


----------



## telemaxx

What will be the exact route of the Strasbourg-Brussels connection? Where will it leave the LGV Est? Via which line will it arrive in Brussel?


----------



## Suburbanist

telemaxx said:


> What will be the exact route of the Strasbourg-Brussels connection? Where will it leave the LGV Est? Via which line will it arrive in Brussel?


Probably it will use the Interconnexion d'Est and stop at CDG airport.


----------



## Sunfuns

Distance wise that's close to twice longer than driving, but very fast...


----------



## CB31

dimlys1994 said:


> From Global Rail News:
> 
> Quote:
> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/0...-jean-station/
> 
> *€200m to be spent upgrading Bordeaux Saint-Jean station*
> 29 APR, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo by RFF / CAPA / Richard Nourry (TOMA)
> 
> RFF and SNCF have launched a joint €200 million scheme to renovate Bordeaux Saint-Jean station ready for the inauguration of the Tours-Bordeaux TGV in 2017.
> 
> The three-year programme is made up of 14 separate projects designed to improve reliability of rail services in the Aquitaine region and allow the station to accommodate the additional seven million passengers expected to use the it from 2017.
> 
> As well as extending the station itself and modernising the current interior, money will be spent renewing track and building new maintenance facilities for TGV and TER vehicles.
> 
> The 302-kilometre Tours-Bordeaux HSL will reduce journey times between the cities to just over two hours.
> 
> RFF has already awarded the Vinci-led LISEA consortium a 50-year concession to maintain and renew the €7.8 billion route. The agreement requires SNCF to pay LISEA a fee to use the line


----------



## Baron Hirsch

I wonder why everybody here just posts projects and nobody posts about the actual things that happen on the rails. Since nobody has, I will post this news even though it's days old. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137 

Dozens of people have been injured in a train collision in southern France, according to media reports.
A high-speed TGV train on the Pau-Bayonne line was transporting 178 people when it crashed into a regional TER train carrying 70 passengers.
Initial reports indicate the TGV train was stopped on the tracks and restarting when the crash occurred near the town of Denguin.
At least 25 people were reported injured, nine of them seriously.
The BBC's Christian Fraser reports the TGV train had stopped briefly on its route and was moving again, though seemingly not at full speed, which may have prevented a much more serious accident.
Police and firefighters arrived at the scene quickly to help the injured passengers from the train. The collision follows a recent damning report into the rail crash south of Paris last year, in which seven people died. (...) 

See above Dimlys' report as to all the things that would be done for rail safety.


----------



## TedStriker

This kind of story has been posted before so I don't think you can say that people only post reports about projects.


----------



## Minato ku

Baron Hirsch said:


> I wonder why everybody here just posts projects and nobody posts about the actual things that happen on the rails. Since nobody has, I will post this news even though it's days old. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28358137
> 
> Dozens of people have been injured in a train collision in southern France, according to media reports.
> A high-speed TGV train on the Pau-Bayonne line was transporting 178 people when it crashed into a regional TER train carrying 70 passengers.
> Initial reports indicate the TGV train was stopped on the tracks and restarting when the crash occurred near the town of Denguin.
> At least 25 people were reported injured, nine of them seriously.
> The BBC's Christian Fraser reports the TGV train had stopped briefly on its route and was moving again, though seemingly not at full speed, which may have prevented a much more serious accident.
> Police and firefighters arrived at the scene quickly to help the injured passengers from the train. The collision follows a recent damning report into the rail crash south of Paris last year, in which seven people died. (...)
> 
> See above Dimlys' report as to all the things that would be done for rail safety.


This is wrong it is the regional TER train that crashed into the TGV, not the opposite.
The TER was running at 90 km/h and the TGV at 30 km/h when the crash occurred.

The signaling in this part of the track was off service for maintenance.


----------



## TedStriker

In the meantime, is anyone here fluent in French? I have a favour to ask of anyone that is.


----------



## Minato ku

I am French.


----------



## TedStriker

Is that a confession? Sorry, I'm joking of course.

Can you send an email to RFF to ask which routes in France are cleared to allow P400 semi-trailers to be carried on standard intermodal wagons please? 

Just so you are aware, I am familiar with the VIIA services of Geodis which use the special Modalohr wagons.

Recently CFL began a service between Bettembourg and Lyon which can carry P400 trailers on standard intermodal wagons.

This surprised me as I didn't think the loading gauge anywhere in France was large enough for this traffic unless the Modalohr wagons were used.

I've tried emailing RFF in English and got no response so perhaps a French language email might be replied to.

Thanks.


----------



## 437.001

I´ve just "caught" these two photos lost in another thread, and I just couldn´t resist it... 

A TGV along Le Bourget lake, between Aix-les-Bains and Culoz (in the departement of Savoie).
The picture hasn´t been retouched, the landscape is like this: 



hugodiekonig said:


> Photo seen at: France Art & Architecture




The next one is a bit more nostalgic, taken some time ago between Narbonne and Port-la-Nouvelle stations (in the departement of Aude).
The Talgo Mare Nostrum, pulled by a BB 7200, on its way from Montpellier to Cartagena, in Spain:



hugodiekonig said:


> Talgo Mare Nostrum con "tracción francesa" en Port-la-Nouvelle by Miquel González Page via flickr


----------



## CB31

Edit.


----------



## TedStriker

For those who are also curious about the Lyon-Bettembourg service, please see the 10th slide in this document: 

Intermodal Loading Gauge In France


----------



## Baron Hirsch

Minato ku said:


> This is wrong it is the regional TER train that crashed into the TGV, not the opposite.
> The TER was running at 90 km/h and the TGV at 30 km/h when the crash occurred.
> 
> The signaling in this part of the track was off service for maintenance.


Yes, thanks. I noticed the mistake in the BBC report, but was in a rush when posting so did not correct it. 
It is of course a bit of a horror to think that a train engineer would ride at 90 kmh while going blindly. I suppose the fault is given to "human error"? I think not slowing down in construction sites or similar situations must be a major cause for accidents, remember the tragic derailment in Brühl between Köln and Bonn a few years back. Is there anything to be done about such cases?


----------



## Minato ku

The accident happened at 90 km/h because the train engineer slowed down when he saw the TGV, infact he was operating the TER at full speed (120 km/h).
It is either a fault of the train engineer or a malfunction of the signalisation.


----------



## Coccodrillo

TedStriker said:


> Is that a confession? Sorry, I'm joking of course.
> 
> Can you send an email to RFF to ask which routes in France are cleared to allow P400 semi-trailers to be carried on standard intermodal wagons please?
> 
> Just so you are aware, I am familiar with the VIIA services of Geodis which use the special Modalohr wagons.
> 
> Recently CFL began a service between Bettembourg and Lyon which can carry P400 trailers on standard intermodal wagons.
> 
> This surprised me as I didn't think the loading gauge anywhere in France was large enough for this traffic unless the Modalohr wagons were used.
> 
> I've tried emailing RFF in English and got no response so perhaps a French language email might be replied to.
> 
> Thanks.


I found this map: http://www.rff.fr/public/force_download.php?dir=IMG&url=DRR_2014mod_-_Annexe_6_1_gabarits_F_V.pdf

It shown the loading gauges, not the intermodal transport profiles, but that's roughly the matching between the two measures:

gabarit C = P400/C80
gabarit B1 = P384/C45
gabarit A = P360/C32

The gabarit and the profiles are different things, so they aren't exactly "synonyms".

G1 is probably the French standard loading gauge (or maybe the Berne gauge), autre means other, and I don't know what does GLOTT mean.

(GC, gabarit GC, and gabarit C are just different ways to say the same thing, as are tha gabarit B1 and the B+)

Here are then the intermodal profiles on the Italian network (RFI only): http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati...r_traffico_combinato_rete_FS_in_esercizio.pdf (grey = standard FS gauge)


----------



## TedStriker

That's fantastic, thank you.


----------



## TedStriker

Although I've just realised the GC lines are the TGV routes.

I suspect that RFF has given clearance to P400 trains over the pink line via Dijon and Metz perhaps, may be with a few modifications. It must be a pretty easy route to fiddle with.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There aren't many tunnels in France, and many double track lines could handle their traffic with a (temproary) single track, so most routes would be easy to upgrade.

******************

Are there plans to convert 1,5 kV DC lines to 25 kV AC, especially those with old DC equipment and few tunnels like those in the southwest? Doing the conversion after the opening of the LGV SEA wouldn't even cause much distruption.


----------



## AlexNL

SNCF posted a video about the removal of the trains that collided near Denguin to their YouTube account:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...slash-sncf-first-half-profit.html?channel=542
> 
> *Strike and recession slash SNCF first-half profit*
> Friday, August 01, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE rail strike in June and France's continuing sluggish economy caused French National Railways (SNCF) to report a 74% drop in net profit to €224m for the first half of 2014 compared with a net profit of €865m for the first half of 2013_
> 
> While first-half turnover increased by 0.8% to €16bn, operating profit fell by 54.8% to €517m and Ebitda dropped by 17.5% to €1.07bn. SNCF says nearly two-thirds of the decline in Ebitda was due to the 13-day strike which resulted in lost revenue of €208m, while continuing increases in track access charges, particularly for the operation of TGV services, accounted for the rest of the fall in Ebitda.
> 
> "Faced with the persistently sluggish economy in France, SNCF has demonstrated its ability to meet the challenge, preserving our margins through an unrelenting drive to cut costs," says SNCF's president Mr Guillaume Pepy. "However the strike in June has forced us to launch an additional cost-cutting programme aimed at erasing two-thirds of that strike's impact on our accounts. At the same time, our investments are up at €1.1bn and our net debt is down from levels reported at June 30 2013."
> 
> First-half net debt declined from €8bn to €7.88bn, while capital investment increased by 9% to €1.1bn. However, SNCF was only able to fund 71% of investment from its own resources due to the fall in Ebitda.
> 
> SNCF says activities unaffected by the strike did well, in particular those outside France. International business revenue grew by 5.6% during the first half, with its passenger subsidiary Keolis recording a 6.8% increase in revenue of which 14% was abroad


----------



## AlexNL

The collision between a TER and a TGV was caused by rodents. Despite deterrent measures, the rodents had damaged some cabling close to the signal, which in turn showed a green aspect when it should've been red. SNCF will performs checks on over 10.000 similar signals, as this was not seen before.


----------



## 1772

*Subway / Underground Metro System in Monaco?*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Monaco#Subway


> *Subway*
> 
> A narrow gauge subway line is a perennial project in Monaco, which has not been built thus far.


Once in a while I come across talks of a subway system that is supposed to be built underneath Monaco., but I can never fins anymore information about it. 

Anyone know anything?


----------



## Nexis

I'm not sure that would be worth it given Monaco's size.


----------



## zaphod

I can imagine some kind of underground funicular, maybe


----------



## Suburbanist

Nexis said:


> I'm not sure that would be worth it given Monaco's size.


For all purposes, Monaco is part of a larger urban agglomeration where there could be demand for that. But Monaco policies are tricky, they want good access, but not that good access, as to preserve their exclusivity.


----------



## 1772

Well there is a big problem with traffic jams. 
Then again I would assume it would be a system withing Monaco or just the immediate surrounding areas. 

And the topography would make it more accessible. 


Just wondered if someone have seen any plans or anything.


----------



## 437.001

Idiot cyclists of the Paris-Roubaix classic race (Nord-Pas de Calais, northern France), at a level crossing.


----------



## Crownsteler

So, did any of them get disqualified?


----------



## TedStriker

****wits.


----------



## Svartmetall

Now that is what I call stupidity. Wow... They should have been fined for trespass on the railways (if that is possible in France).


----------



## 437.001

Crownsteler said:


> So, did any of them get disqualified?


No. icard::crazy:



Svartmetall said:


> Now that is what I call stupidity. Wow... They should have been fined for trespass on the railways (if that is possible in France).


The Sncf is trying to fine them if they can. Here:

*BBC Sport*



> *Paris-Roubaix: Train company wants police action taken
> 
> The French state railway company SNCF has called for police action against cyclists in the Paris-Roubaix spring classic who crossed tracks with a safety barrier down, seconds before a high-speed train arrived.*
> 
> [...] The SNCF has issued a statement calling for "several riders" to be prosecuted for acting "against all safety rules".
> 
> Race organisers have said the riders could not stop in time.
> 
> "Millions of television viewers saw live this extremely serious and irresponsible action which could have been tragic," said SNCF.
> 
> "A few seconds later, a TGV ran on this line and could have hit the peloton." [...]
> 
> 
> [...] Race organisers said on Sunday they would not punish the riders. :bash:
> 
> "It wasn't possible for the leading riders to stop sufficiently safely," said Guy Dobbelaere, president of the jury of race commissioners. "The peloton was 10 metres away when the barrier started to close." [...]


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/main-line/avignon-–-carpentras-line-reopens.html?channel=524
> 
> *Avignon – Carpentras line reopens*
> Tuesday, April 28, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _REGULAR passenger services returned to the French town of Carpentras for the first time in 77 years on April 25 with the reopening of the 17km branch from Sourges north of Avignon_
> 
> Initially French National Railways (SNCF) is operating 13 services per day to Avignon, with trains running hourly at peak times, although this will be increased to 17 trains per day from August 31 with half-hourly frequencies in the peak. Services will be stepped up once more to 20 trains per day next year and the line is expected to carry around 4000 passengers per day when the full timetable is operational
> 
> ...


----------



## AlexNL

An hourly service (and later on, even more) on a TER line? How much did they pay SNCF to do that??


----------



## FRA-TUN

French engineers are goood in Trains.
Do you know if there's a project of magnetic railways such as in Japan, or are they focused on the TGV ?


----------



## 437.001

> *Avignon – Carpentras line reopens*




This was much needed.



AlexNL said:


> An hourly service (and later on, even more) on a TER line? How much did they pay SNCF to do that??


I don't remember, but the reopening of this line was not a very expensive thing.

This will be almost a commuter rail line.

The problem in Provence is that there are so many lines that were closed long ago and shouldn't have.
Most of them can be reopened easily, but investment doesn't come.


----------



## 437.001

*Reopening of the Sorgues-Carpentras line.*

*New TER timetables Avignon TGV-Avignon Centre-Carpentras* Maybe some of you might like to travel there. The area is nice, but a bit windy. 


Images of the reopened (and totally upgraded) *Carpentras* station.


Wikipedia: Marianne Casamance


Wikipedia: Marianne Casamance


Wikipedia: Marianne Casamance



>


www.ter.sncf.com



*Entraigues sur la Sorgue* station:



>


www.ter.sncf.com



*Sorgues-Châteauneuf du Pape* station (still with ongoing works when the pic was taken), looking towards Avignon and Marseille:



>


www.ter.sncf.com



Map of the line:



>


www.ter.sncf.com


----------



## AlexNL

They went all-out on it. Kudos to SNCF and the regions that made this possible!


----------



## MarcVD

I see from the pictures that today, the line terminates in Carpentras. Was it always like that, or did the line go further on before ?


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## 437.001

^^
The line Sorgues-Carpentras was always like that, with the same stations in the same place.
The only thing that has changed is that Althen des Paluds station hasn't reopened.
Note that the Sorgues-Carpentras line was never closed to all traffic, it was closed only to passengers in 1938, not for freight. Myself I remember a freight train leaving Sorgues station bound for Carpentras while I was on a TER from Avignon to Valence.

But Carpentras used to have another line, that was closed many years ago too, and went from Orange (on the Paris-Lyon-Marseille main line) to L'Isle sur la Sorgue (on the Avignon Centre-Cavaillon-Salon de Provence-Miramas line). This one was dismantled, you can see its remains when you leave Orange station south bound.

So Carpentras station used to be a junction in the past.


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## 437.001

^^
Here's a map of the historical railway lines in the departement of Vaucluse:


----------



## 437.001

*Reopening of the Sorgues-Carpentras line.*

Two videos.

nº1

First train, at Monteux station, TER Carpentras-Avignon.
Second train, at Monteux station, TER Avignon-Carpentras.
Third and fourth trains, at Sorgues-CHâteauneuf du Pape station, a TER Avignon-Carpentras and a TER Carpentras-Avignon, crossing. and Entraigues sur la Sorgue stations.
Firth train, inside a TER leaving Monteux station for Carpentras.
Sixth train, a TER Carpentras-Avignon arriving at Entraigues-sur-la-Sorgue station.








nº2

First train, a TER on a test run previous to the opening, passing by Monteux station.
Second train, a TER on a test run, leaving Carpentras station.


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## alserrod

Thanks. I visited that and other pages. When you are going to buy tickets they say if it wonders, just for that trip, to buy a card and they said me it worthed for not so much money, but worthed.... but (and confirmed by company) not possible to buy on internet with an out of France address.


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## parcdesprinces

alserrod said:


> (and confirmed by company)


So you called them (I was about to tell you to do so).. 

That said, may I suggest you (if of course I correctly understood your issue) to insist, because generally (I'm serious, I mean this is France/French customer services) when you "yell at them"...then, mysteriously, "everything" becomes possible. (again, this is France)...anyway, you have nothing to lose in trying that way...

...And trust me, it works!


----------



## alserrod

Well... tickets are already bought and payed. I contacted them via internet and assured that could be bought only on stations or by internet if living in France. What I do not understand is why they ask the country and do not let to change it... Write it as default and enough.

Question now is if it possible to buy a Enfant+ card and change 8 tickets with it in a station, prior to take first train.


----------



## Floch PC 11

Rennes station in 2015 and 2017 - before/today :





_____________





The brittany high-speed rail will open in july : Paris < > Rennes 1:25 / Paris < > Brest 3:30 (a reduction of 45 mins).


----------



## alserrod

I took the Pau-Paris-Pau TGV and I have some questions...

- Since when did they call at Orthez?. I though it wasn't called by TGV
- Border-St.Sebastian is now under works. TGV said all stations until Hendaye. Do they go until Irun or only until Hendaye? (they were joined till Dax)

Perfect on going, 10 minutes delayed on back


----------



## redstarcastles

Second part of my trip to Paris. Unfortunately there was a heavy fog about.


6468 Pont Cardinet 20 February 2017


827357 Pont Cardinet 20 February 2017


515060 Pont Cardinet 20 February 2017


115053 Pont Cardinet 20 February 2017


565 Paris Saint-Lazare 18 February 2017


115053 Paris Saint-Lazare 18 February 2017


23016 & 84515 Gare du Nord 20 February 2017


215045 Gare du Nord 20 February 2017


22333 Gare du Nord 20 February 2017


20875 Villeneuve St Georges 20 February 2017


522238 Villeneuve St Georges 20 February 2017

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Paris-20th-February-2017/


----------



## Aokromes

Le petit train à crémaillère à Rhune


----------



## alexandru.mircea

I'm not sure I understand this argument, can someone help?



> "La fusion des régions permet déjà de faire des économies", affirme le président LR de l'association Régions de France Philippe Richert. Et les chiffres l'attestent. Les régions dépensent moins qu'avant, et cela s'observe notamment sur les trains régionaux. Il faut rappeler que le prix du billet ne couvre qu'1/4 seulement des dépenses. Le reste est payé par la région. Mais comme le contrat négocié avec la SNCF couvre désormais un territoire bien plus vaste, les grandes régions ont aujourd'hui plus de poids pour négocier de meilleurs tarifs. Par exemple en Occitanie, l'économie réalisée est estimée à 260 millions d'euros, quant à la région Grand Est, elle devrait se situer aux alentours de 350 millions d'euros sur 5 ans, ce qui représente une baisse d'environ 10% de la facture, alors que l'on compte 200 trains de plus sur les rails.


http://www.rtl.fr/actu/societe-fait...ions-une-reelle-source-d-economies-7788780795

It says that the merging of regions has helped make vast savings in railway costs, but from how I understand the explanation, it simply means that the new (and bigger) regions have renegotiated the level of subsidy for the regional railway networks (TER), so the regions now pay less and the operator, SNCF, pays more via ticket prices. Which I wouldn't call "savings", just a different pocket from which to put out the taxpayers' money...


----------



## kyah117

Well, it doesn't say anything about the ticket prices except that 1/4 of the expenses are covered by the tickets, the rest is paid by the regions.

For the rest, it's basically what you've said : savings from bigger contracts.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

New anamorphic maps of distances in France that take into account the new high speed lines innaugurated today, Bordeaux and Rennes):









https://twitter.com/ClaraSchmelck/status/879065081329442816









https://twitter.com/AssoGrandParis/status/879830853597229056


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ Next steps: speeding up to Toulouse and Nice. After that, well, not much is really left in order to keep all elephants coloured.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Today at the innauguration president Macron said he'll favour investment in improvement of everyday transport instead of new "grand projets", so that's tough luck for Toulouse and Nice 

Kidding aside, isn't the extension of high speed service to Toulouse already in planning phase? That's what I seem to remember. Anyway, given the shortened time for Bordeaux, the time to reach Toulouse has shortened as well, there are now direct trains that reach it from Paris in four hours and seventeen minutes. 

As for Nice, I don't know how much they can do anyway, given the tight montaneous geography. Five hours fourty minutes from Paris is already pretty good, three hours down to Marseille in high speed and then one hour and a half along the coastline.


----------



## AlexNL

alexandru.mircea said:


> Kidding aside, isn't the extension of high speed service to Toulouse already in planning phase? That's what I seem to remember.


The DUP status (declaration of public utility) of that project has been canceled a few days ago so it looks like that, as well as president Macron's statements about wanting to focus on the existing network, will throw everything up in the air.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ thanks



alexandru.mircea said:


> Anyway, given the shortened time for Bordeaux, the time to reach Toulouse has shortened as well, there are now direct trains that reach it from Paris in four hours and seventeen minutes.


Well that didn't get off to a good start, the first such train had a 4 hour and a half delay today due to a technical incident with an intercity train on the same tracks...

=== 

SNCF also have their own isochronic anamorphic maps which are really cool and detailed, and some have been published in a book:





































https://twitter.com/M_Lafage/status/881108248065081344

Some better pics would be great...


----------



## btrs

alexandru.mircea said:


> As for Nice, I don't know how much they can do anyway, given the tight montaneous geography. Five hours fourty minutes from Paris is already pretty good, three hours down to Marseille in high speed and then one hour and a half along the coastline.


Aside from the pure time gain, they should build this line so TGV's can move to the new line and TER-trains would be more punctual on the coastal line. Today, one hiccup on the line (bomb attacks, broken down trains, ..) immediately disrupts or severely delays all trains.

With the new line, at least TGV's and some fast regional services (like the present TER-IC's) will still be running if there are problems on the classic line.


----------



## 437.001

The Polman said:


> ^^ Next steps: speeding up to Toulouse and Nice. After that, well, not much is really left in order to keep all elephants coloured.


Nope: the next steps are Montpellier, Perpignan and Barcelona, as the new line Nimes-Montpellier will open very soon too. 

In July 2018, if all goes well. But only at a top speed of 220km/h, travel times will be cut by 20min until ETCS-2 is installed.
When ETCS-2 were installed, then top speed will be 300km/h, saving even more time. 

In fact, I think that map already puts Barcelona-Paris under 6 hours, so I guess they already updated it.

Once it opens, Paris-Barcelona will have an almost equal travel time as Paris-Nice.
Which will probably mean Barcelona overtaking Nice in travel time once ETCS-2 entered service.


----------



## JumpUp

The LGV to Montpellier opens in July 2018?
Wasn't it supposed to be Dec. 2017?

When did they announce this delay?


----------



## Grotlaufen

It's a shame that Nice gets so left out from all new railway construction. If it gets faster to get to say Barcelona from most of France by rail I wouldn't discard the possibility some of the tourists going to Côte d´Azur would go to Catalonia instead. Maybe all the rentiers on the French riviera don't care about future and faster rail as they already have it quite well?


The ideal for Nice would IMO be a HSR Marseilles-Toulon-Nice-Turin (a tunnel from Nice to Cueno on the way to Turin would be about 55-65kms of length, which is a long stretch but almost equal to other base tunnels currently under construction). Functionaly executed you could have HSR trains in 250 km/h from Marseilles to Milan (~400-450 kms with all new tunnels) in 2-3hrs. Nothern Italy would get great connections by rail to the Iberian peninsula and vice versa this way, and Nice would get a great connection to its former capital in less than an hour (today there are just the slow railway and equally small highway across Tende, hence very few day trips ).


----------



## 437.001

Grotlaufen said:


> It's a shame that Nice gets so left out from all new railway construction.


More than a shame, it's just that it's very, very expensive, and not easy at all.
The Côte d'Azur is overbuilt, so the only realistic option is building the new line through very long and expensive tunnels.



Grotlaufen said:


> If it gets faster to get to say Barcelona from most of France by rail I wouldn't discard the possibility some of the tourists going to Côte d´Azur would go to Catalonia instead.


Oh, but they already come. 



Grotlaufen said:


> The ideal for Nice would IMO be a HSR Marseilles-Toulon-Nice-Turin (a tunnel from Nice to Cueno on the way to Turin would be about 55-65kms of length, which is a long stretch but almost equal to other base tunnels currently under construction).


Man, er... :shifty: Have you ever travelled by train fro Nice to Cuneo?

That's the Alps. It wouldn't be cheaper than Lyon-Turin. At all. 

It's easier to build the shorter, cheaper Montgenèvre tunnel between Briançon and Oulx, which by the way is the historical route from Spain to Italy, not the coastal one.


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> The LGV to Montpellier opens in July 2018?
> Wasn't it supposed to be Dec. 2017?
> 
> When did they announce this delay?


I saw it at the *French Wikipedia*, so unless it's not updated I trust it.



French Wikipédia said:


> [...] La construction de la ligne, qui permettra de relier Montpellier à Paris en 3 heures 05, a débuté fin 2013, pour une mise en service à vitesse réduite de 220 km/h prévue le 8 juillet 2018. [...]


----------



## SSCreader

Regarding the Montpellier LGV, it will open on December 11, 2017. It is the train station itself that will open in 2018.

The info in French.


----------



## 437.001

SSCreader said:


> Regarding the Montpellier LGV, it will open on December 11, 2017. It is the train station itself that will open in 2018.
> 
> The info in French.


To be clear, the Nimes-Montpellier LGV will open in December 2017, but no passenger train will use it, only freight trains will, as the station won't open and no passenger train skips Montpellier (I could only think about a hypothetical non-stop TGV Barcelona-Paris skipping it, and even that is a bit far-fetched). 

Which is as good as saying that it will "open" on July 2018.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

I wanted to recommend my friends in Tours to go to Lyon for a certain event, and I was a bit shocked to learn that the direct intercity train takes longer (5h10) than the car (4h40).


----------



## Sacré Coeur

^^ From Saint-Pierre-des-Corps (just outside Tours), there is a direct TGV that goes in Lyon (through Massy TGV) in less than 3 hours.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ thanks, that is useful to know. The prices are cheap too, seemingly.

The question remains why is that Intercité train so very slow... Maybe long stops in many stations.


----------



## Axelferis

*France*
commuter Lille-Lesquin (7min)
Last Bombardier rolling stock:


----------



## alexandru.mircea

The locomotive cemetery in Sotteville, a suburb of Rouen:





































https://twitter.com/switchi93/status/887639201122070528


----------



## TedStriker

^^

I'm surprised that SNCF hasn't tried selling some of these locomotives to other European operators, such as those in East Europe, via the same kind of process that has led some of former-UK electric locomotives to be operational in Hungary, for example. 

A scene like this just looks like an avoidable waste rather than an inevitable consequence of a reduction in locomotive demand on the French network.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

^ in 2015 (the date of an article I read) about 40 (10%) of these locomotives were in good state but SNCF refuses to sell them. They supposedly claim it's because of an EU directive on environment. The cost of updating them would be too high, so as they become obsolete, usable spares are extracted.

http://normandinamik.cci.fr/212315-...les-locomotives-ne-sont-pas-toutes-des-epaves


----------



## TedStriker

^^

Thanks. 

What SNCF says seems weird. 

Surely locomotives of the same age from other areas of Europe also make use of asbestos? 

And, surely locomotives of the same age from other areas will have also had to have the same amount of repair work? 

I think this subject needs some more research.


----------



## MarcVD

In the past, there are well known historic operators that refused to sell old rolling stock, because that would make cheap equipment for competitors. I suspect we have the same here. Private operators already made a serious dent into SNCF's freight traffic, they don't want to make that worse by putting on the market perfectly good locomotives, already certified, for 10% price of a new one. They might even try to protect themselves against the opening of the passenger network that will happen in a not so distant future now. A company similar to Regiojet would be perfectly happy to start competing with SNCF on the medium distance market with second hand RIC cars and ex SNCF locos.


----------



## alexandru.mircea

*Orient Express* is coming back. Accorhotels have bought a 50% stake. The actual train will be running mainly for private events, probably, while the biggest deal is Accor aquiring this particular branding for its new set of luxury hotels that it wants to develop. *

https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-s...rque-orient-express-2119543.php#xtor=CS1-3046


----------



## parcdesprinces

alexandru.mircea said:


> *Orient Express* is coming back. -


Non, it doesn't!



Here is the Orient Express, the true one:

Paris-Vienna-Belgrade-Istanbul/Constantinople.


----------



## EduardSA

parcdesprinces said:


> Non, it doesn't!
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the Orient Express, the true one:
> 
> Paris-Vienna-Belgrade-Istanbul/Constantinople.


Actually Paris-Vienna-*Bucharest*-Istanbul/Constantinople:









Source: Wikipedia


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ Indeed! My bad!

(anyway, the article posted above by Alexandru is about the _Venice-Simplon-Orient-Express_...which is a seasonal and luxury service, so nothing to do with the original and true Orient Express (i.e. the former Paris <-> Istanbul/Constantinople direct and regular service)).


----------



## EduardSA

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ Indeed! My bad!
> 
> (anyway, the article posted above by Alexandru is about the _Venice-Simplon-Orient-Express_...which is a seasonal and luxury service, so nothing to do with the original and true Orient Express (i.e. the former Paris <-> Istanbul/Constantinople direct and regular service)).


I believe the agreement with Accor is regarding the original and true Orient Express.

The Venice-Simplon-Orient-Express is currently running (although not only along the old route, but also through Vienna and Bucharest to Istanbul) and is owned by a British company called Belmond Ltd.


----------



## parcdesprinces

EduardSA said:


> I believe the agreement with Accor is regarding the original and true Orient Express.


Ah, OK! Great news if that's the case :happy:.


----------



## Gusiluz

According to Arafer (Autorité de Régulation des Activités Ferroviaires), the modal split went from 7.1% in 1995 to 10% in 2011; since then it has gone down in favor of the car, the coach and the plane. Even so (9.9% in 2015) it is superior to other European countries such as the United Kingdom (8.5%), Germany (8.3%), the European average (7.6%), Spain (6.6%) ) and Italy (6.2%).


On the other hand, 80% of trains circulate through 27% of the network, while 31% of the network is used by only 1% of passenger trains. Most of the trains (85%) are for Passengers.


When talking about mobility is usually done with figures of Passengers, when the really illustrative are the Passengers.km, since they also take into account the distance traveled.


The traffic measured in Passengers.km has decreased by 1% in 2016 while it has increased in the other modes: + 17% in interurban coach, + 3.8% in airplane and + 2.7% in automobile. In international trains it has dropped (logical) by 7.8%, in Intercités (Long Distance) by 6.5% and in TER (Regional) by 2.8%; while it has risen in Transilien (Île-de-France, Great París conmuter, + 3.8%) and has remained stable in domestic TGV (+ 0.1%) despite a drop in the offer of 4.1 %.
Total traffic (including merchandise) has dropped by 6%. Due to strikes and others, an average of 229 (3.4%) of the 6,969 daily commuter trains outside the Transilien have been deprogrammed and 117 (1.8%) have been abolished at the last moment. Of the 299,000 TGV trains scheduled in 2016 (821 per day), 3,800 were deprogrammed (2.3%). An average of 11% of the trains (without Transilien) arrived at their destination with a delay of at least 6 minutes: 18.8% of Intercités trains, 15.9% in TGV and 10.2% in TER. 


Operators entered € 13,369 M (excluding VAT) in 2015, 38% (5,100) came from the public treasury: 3,000 for TER trains, 1,700 for Transilien, 300 for Intercités and 100 M for TGV. 31% of this revenue (€ 4,150 million) went to SNCF Réseau (infrastructure manager) and Gares & Connexions (stations) for access fees. SNCF Mobilités has paid 1,700 M € of fees for domestic TGV, 38% of its revenues (4,346), while only paid 26% in Intercités and TER. An average of 6.3 € cents per Passenger.km.

The public treasury have contributed a third of the Intercités revenues, the regions paid 75% of TER revenues, and 70% for the Transilien (it was 62% in 2015 but the possibility of using the Navigo pass in Transilien since September 1 caused an annual fall of 21% of revenues and a 12.6% increase in public contribution). The public treasury paid an average of € 18 cents for each Passenger.km (13 in Île-de-France and 23 in the rest).


The total cost in TER and Transilien per Passenger and km was € 29.8 cents (excluding VAT): 6.5 paid by the passenger and 23.3 for the region (17.7 to SNCF Mobilités for transport and 5,6 to SNCF Réseau by the access fees).
Revenues from transport tickets of domestic TGVs (including Ouigo, iDTGV) were 9.6 cents (excluding VAT) per Passenger and km (-2.4% over 2015); the free tickets in the TGV were 5% of the total in 2016 (!!!). The revenues of the TER and Intercités were 7.8 cents of € (without VAT) per Passenger and km (-3.2% over 2015), with large differences between subscribers (4.1 cents) and non-subscribers (10,7). 8.5 € cents in Intercités and 7.5 € in TER.
The average route in TGV trains was 496 km, 255 in Intercités, 81 km in TER and 17 in Transilien.
The rate of use of the TERs was between 15% and 31% depending on the region, with an average of 25.4% (in Spain, 32.8% for the OSPs), the Transilien rate was 27.8% (33.8% in Cercanías Renfe), that of Intercités was 42.0% (59.87% for Renfe LD) and that of TGVs 66.8% (73.5% in AVE).

*Comparison with revenues in other railways in the world*:
If we divide the income by transport tickets between the passengers, we will have what the operators charge each passenger for each km traveled. The data are expressed in cents of € per km and are from the year 2016.

*Spain* (2015):
10,1 AVE LD
07,6 LD conventional
10,0 Avant (Regional HS)
06,9 MD conventional
06,1 Conmuter

España (2016):
09,5 Commercial services
06,6 OSP (paid by travelers, subsidies are not included)
12,1 OSP (counting the 604,170 M € contributed in 2016 includes OSP, agreements and Catalonia)

*Alemania*:
10,5 LD (includes ICE and others)
21,2 DB Regional and Conmuter

*Francia*: 
09,6 TGV domésticos (incluyendo Ouigo y billetes gratuitos, que fueron un 5% del total en 2016) (-2,4% sobre 2015)
07,8 TER e Intercités (-3,2% sobre 2015)

*Italia*:
07,4 Italo (AV de la privada NTV)
25,2 Frecce (Servicios Comerciales de Trenitalia, también incluye LD convencional)

*USA*:
54,0 Acela (Amtrak HS in the Northeast Corridor). Revenue from transport tickets covered 94% of Amtrak's operating cost in 2016.

*Shinkansen*:
20,5 JR Kyushu
15,7 JR West
17,4 JR Central
19,1 JR East (It includes Mini-Shinkansen: 130 km/h)

Sources: own elaboration from annual report of the operators


----------



## 1772

Is the mountain train track between Nice and Cuneo still in use? The one going north-east from Nice via Sospel. 
Seems like a shame to not use it.


----------



## TedStriker

Spinetta report urges SNCF to prepare for competition

*Railway Gazette. Friday 16th February 2018.* 

FRANCE: The national railway must refocus on ‘the areas where it has greatest relevance’: transporting large numbers of passengers within urban areas, and providing high speed connectivity between France’s principal cities.

This mission statement is at the heart of a landmark report handed to Prime Minister Edouard Philippe on February 15 by former Air France Chief Executive Jean-Cyril Spinetta. The report was commissioned in October last year by Transport Secretary Elisabeth Borne, and Spinetta was given a wide-ranging remit to assess the future of the French rail sector in the context of SNCF’s ongoing indebtedness, and the requirement under the EU’s Fourth Railway Package to liberalise the domestic passenger market.

The review is the latest in a series of attempts over recent decades to reform the French rail sector, and in particular tackle the special legal status of railway employees. Spinetta says the onset of competition ‘presents a unique opportunity’ to address ‘an urgent situation’.

He suggests that ‘clearly the rail mode is not in decline’ and points to wider societal trends including environmental factors and urbanisation which should ensure a sustainable business in the future. However, this should not mask that fact that the current network ‘is unsatisfactory’, costs are rising ‘ceaselessly’ and, despite the reforms initiated in August 2014 that saw SNCF restructured as a ‘public railway group’, the funding model for the railway remains ‘seriously and fundamentally unbalanced’. 

*Towards a smaller network*

In addressing the cost issue, Spinetta pulls no punches, arguing that France is ‘unique in Europe’ in allocating around 15% of its annual rail funding to routes that carry ‘just 2% of passengers’. He urges that ‘a new model for rural transport must be found’, and advocates a wholesale review of SNCF Réseau’s regional and secondary lines. This funding should immediately be reallocated to renewing infrastructure at key hubs and on high-volume conventional lines, and ‘this must be a priority for the next 20 years’, he says.

The report endorses the role of high speed rail in linking cities ‘with speed and capacity that cannot be matched by other modes’. Rail will continue to provide ‘a backbone in an era of new mobility options’, but nevertheless he sees limited scope for the construction of more high speed lines. ‘This would take the TGV model beyond economic sense’, Spinetta says, suggesting that 3 h remains the optimal journey time for high speed services.

*SNCF status*

The report underlines that the 2014 reforms ‘have not been sufficient’ to cope with the challenges of SNCF’s mounting debt. Currently, both SNCF Mobilités and SNCF Réseau are structured as EPICs (Etablissement Public Industriel et Commercial), which ‘ties them unequivocally to the state’. 

In the case of the operating business, EPIC status is likely to be incompatible with EU rules on state aid. It also prevents the infrastructure manager from managing its debt burden in a truly commercial fashion. Spinetta recommends that both organisations be restructured as commercial companies (sociétés anonymes), with the state as sole shareholder. 

The Fret SNCF business should be spun out into a subsidiary company, but its accumulated debt of €4·3bn would largely be retained by SNCF Mobilités. This would enable a renewed effort to stabilise the business, which continues to make heavy losses despite disposing of more than two-thirds of its rolling stock and staff since 2008.

Looking at the wider rail freight sector, the report recommends that the government should look again at taxation options which would recognise rail’s environmental advantage over other modes, following the abandonment of the proposed national ‘ecotax’ on heavy goods vehicles. 

*Labour reform*

No less controversial is Spinetta’s call for the creation of a ‘new social contract’ with SNCF staff which would help the incumbent adjust to a competitive market. The report recommends that newly recruited staff should no longer receive the special legal status of cheminot, and suggests that SNCF starts to prepare over the next two years a plan for large-scale voluntary redundancies as part of its modernisation programme.

Spinetta expects on-rail competition to emerge on the high speed network from 2019, and for the regions to begin tendering their local trains from 2023. In high speed, he sees potential problems ensuring the viability of services in a market which could become ‘diluted’, while new entrants would face difficulties in assessing a business model that could endure over the 30-year life-cycle of their rolling stock. A major hurdle for regional tendering could be the transfer of staff to new operators; this may require specific legislation, he anticipates.

Spinetta recognises that in recent decades, industrial relations across the SNCF group have been characterised ‘more by conflict than consensus’, and he is under no illusions ‘that change will come quickly’. 

Nevertheless he is adamant that reform must happen, bringing railway staff onto broadly similar terms of employment to those in other utilities. Progress will only be made, he suggests, ‘if the staff themselves start to rethink their working practices in a way that puts their skills and knowledge at the heart of a competitive business’. He believes that railway staff ‘will be the principal actors’ in renewing the national railway, which will require ‘an effort of unprecedented co-operation’.


----------



## da_scotty

^^
Labour reforms, call in the strikes....

Some competition would serve SNCF really well.


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## wgerman

alexandru.mircea said:


> The locomotive cemetery in Sotteville, a suburb of Rouen:
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> https://twitter.com/switchi93/status/887639201122070528


So what will eventually happen to them? Coke cans?


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## eu01

Recently I bought a group ticket for just 10 passengers. The travel time from Narbonne to Béziers will be only 12 minutes. Great! However, knowing some French, I've noticed this message: _Rappel : Se présenter une heure avant le départ._ Oh dear. According to this, the group must check in at the station *one hour* before the departure?! With all due respect to the country-specific regulations: What's the point in that?


----------



## GojiMet86

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/21/world/europe/france-railways-strike.html




> *French President’s Next Target: The Railroads. Strikes Loom.*
> By ALISSA J. RUBIN
> MARCH 21, 2018
> 
> PARIS — The soaring 19th century train stations that grace French cities are an iconic image of the nation. Even France’s vaunted high-speed TGV is more than a train; it is a symbol of French planning and ambition, a riposte to an American vision of individualism embodied in the automobile.
> 
> But if France’s young president, Emmanuel Macron, has made one thing clear, it is that he is not afraid to shake up France and take on its venerable institutions.
> 
> Now it is the turn of the heavily subsidized and deeply indebted French rail system.
> 
> Mr. Macron says he wants to erase the railway workers’ special status, which gives them more generous benefits than almost any other workers, including a guarantee of early retirement.
> 
> In doing so, he has set himself a new and formidable challenge in his expanding campaign to reshape France’s society and economy, which started last year with a law that made it easier for private companies to hire and fire workers, a near revolution for France.
> 
> But the railway workers are a public-sector work force, one of the most powerful in the country, with a chokehold on as many as 5 million riders daily. When they go on strike, the whole country feels it.
> 
> Most of the rail unions have already pledged to join a strike by public sector employees planned for Thursday to resist Mr. Macron’s proposals, which could be pushed through the parliament using a special procedure that avoids debate on the specifics.
> 
> The rail workers then plan weeks of strikes starting in April that will be staged on a rolling basis — a two-day strike every three days.........


----------



## alexandru.mircea

eu01 said:


> Recently I bought a group ticket for just 10 passengers. The travel time from Narbonne to Béziers will be only 12 minutes. Great! However, knowing some French, I've noticed this message: _Rappel : Se présenter une heure avant le départ._ Oh dear. According to this, the group must check in at the station *one hour* before the departure?! With all due respect to the country-specific regulations: What's the point in that?


That's very strange. I doubt you really have to be there so early, but I can't swear on it...

==

I am looking for train connections between Biarritz and San Sebastian and I can't seem to find anything useful, does anyone know more about this? I would have suspected this is a well rode route.


----------



## Coccodrillo

There are works going on between the border and Donostia-San Sebastian, so most trains are cancelled. The alternative is to use the narrow gauge EuskoTren line on this section, which is roughly parallel but serve a different station in Donostia-San Sebastian.

**********

I found these dates of the planned days of strike. I planned to go on holydays in France some of these days, but I will spend my (not that much) money in another country :cheers: 

I understand that railway workers have their rights, however I would say that 25% of times I wanted to travel by train in France, they were on strike, and that's quite annoying.

Source: http://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/7273










Source: http://www.ferrovie.it/portale/articoli/7273


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## parcdesprinces

Coccodrillo said:


> [...] planned to go on holydays* in France* some of these days, *but I will spend my [...] money in another country *:cheers:


Not sure to understand...how is it so good to spend your (Swiss=dirty :tongue2 money anywhere but in France?? :dunno:


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## Coccodrillo

I have nothing against France, but I like travelling by train and I planned to use an Interrail pass there, but as this month 40% of days trains may not run because of the strike, I would risk remaining stuck somewhere for two days. I still hope to make an Interrail trip in France too, but this time I will go elsewhere.

On the other hand, keeping passengers angry to make pressure on the government is exactly what railway workers want. But I doubt that irritating normal people is a nice way to defent one's own interests. Strikes in some cases are ok, but in France (and Italy) there are just too much of them and make rail workers' category appear as an arrogant and privileged one.


----------



## K_

parcdesprinces said:


> Not sure to understand...how is it so good to spend your (Swiss=dirty :tongue2 money anywhere but in France?? :dunno:


Firstly, Swiss money isn’t dirty. Your showing your lack of knowledge here.
Secondly , yes, it is better to spend your money somewhere where the workers will actually give you value in return in stead of trying to sink the country.


----------



## parcdesprinces

K_ said:


> Firstly, Swiss money isn’t dirty. Your showing your lack of knowledge here.


Come on, I was joking around about that.. ...i.e. of course I wasn't really serious ! nuts :laugh: (didn't you get it?)



...And regarding your second point^^ , I agree, of course.


----------



## Robi_damian

Question to French forumers:

Who do French train stations employ both numbers and letters to denote platforms. Letters are fairly unique in Europe and they sometimes overlap with the platform sectors, which might be confusing.

I tried to look at a pattern for such numbering (at first I believed that major stations use numbers and smaller ones letters), but I have seen both small stations using numbers and fairly large ones using letters (e.g. Grenoble). Lastly, some stations have number-letter systems (voie 1b). These are common in other countries too, but add to the complexity.

Is there a rule that I am missing or is this a result of mixed traditions? I find this really weird as other aspects related to information provided at French stations is highly standardized and provided in a similar manner across the country (fonts, signs, announcements, etc.).


----------



## alexandru.mircea

English language piece on the impact on high speed rail of the government's 10 year funding pledge for transports (made this Tuesday): https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/09/france-tgv-expansion/569992/

The focus in official materials and the subsequent articles in the French press is on how the main winner will be daily, ordinary rail transport. See here for example where high speed lines barely get a mention in the last paragraph: https://www.sudouest.fr/2018/09/11/...nfrastructures-de-transports-5381880-4755.php


----------



## Vaud

^^ awesome news. Will we ever have a direct Barcelona to Switzerland train over the HSR? I miss very much the old night train, it was so convenient!


----------



## Axelferis

*Lille -Gare Flandres*​*
TER(regional) train ancient/new rolling stock and colours change:*







Inside:







​


----------



## redstarcastles

Some pictures from Paris:


827360 Paris St Lazare 15 November 2018


552 Paris St Lazare 15 November 2018


827336 Paris St Lazare 15 November 2018


817053 Paris St Lazare 15 November 2018


ZB6542 Paris St Lazare 15 November 2018


236L & 218L Pont Cardinet 15 November 2018


526009 Pont Cardinet 15 November 2018


827367 Pont Cardinet 15 November 2018


409 Paris Gare Montparnasse 15 November 2018


Le Tour Eiffel 15 November 2018

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Paris-November-2018/


----------



## intersezioni

from January, the start of the tests for trains frecciarossa 1000 of trenitalia on the SNCF network is expected to take place before the introduction of new international services the following year, with the liberalization of national high-speed routes.


----------



## eu01

^^ You mean that some empty trains will circulate between the two counties? If without any passengers, it's kind of waste of energy and stock to me. Sure, safety first, but shouldn't the approval process be much faster when both are EU member states?


----------



## da_scotty

eu01 said:


> ^^ You mean that some empty trains will circulate between the two counties? If without any passengers, it's kind of waste of energy and stock to me. Sure, safety first, but shouldn't the approval process be much faster when both are EU member states?


The exact inner workings of EU-law have never been discovered. :lol:


But how fun, competition in France, has SNCF called a strike yet in a attempt to stop this?


----------



## Suburbanist

All new services are first tested on dry-runs...


----------



## intersezioni

the frecciarossa 1000 were tested and modified first in Italy and then in France to comply with the transalpine regulations.
if I remember correctly it should officially come into service in France in 2019/2020
they are 5 trains for the moment.
if you like it soon new more detailed news will come


----------



## alexandru.mircea

da_scotty said:


> The exact inner workings of EU-law have never been discovered. :lol:
> 
> 
> But how fun, competition in France, has SNCF called a strike yet in a attempt to stop this?


Not sure how you missed it, but the entire spring was taken up by railway strike (and even national general strike) against the "reforms".


----------



## Floch PC 11

Rennes railways timelapse (2015 > 2018) :





© Devisubox


Some visuals :


Rennes - Zac Eurorennes by -pieton-, sur Flickr


Rennes - Zac Eurorennes by -pieton-, sur Flickr




Rennes by -pieton-, sur Flickr


Rennes by -pieton-, sur Flickr


Rennes by -pieton-, sur Flickr


----------



## Coccodrillo

How are plans to reopen the whole Somport line? The Oloron-Bedous section alone is a waste of money.


----------



## redstarcastles

*Lyon Pictures - November 2018*


231537 Lyon Perrache 16 November 2018


522214 Lyon Perrache 16 November 2018


76825 Lyon Perrache 16 November 2018


81657 Lyon Perrache 16 November 2018


522393 Lyon Part-Dieu 16 November 2018


522242 Lyon Part-Dieu 16 November 2018


522264 Lyon Part-Dieu 16 November 2018


211 & 522395 Lyon Part Dieu 18 November 2018


26177 Lyon Part Dieu 18 November 2018


522400 & 55711 Lyon Part Dieu 19 November 2018


55711 at Lyon Part Dieu 19 November 2018

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Lyon-November-2018/


----------



## MF-01

Great shots ! I know that with the 2015 Régions merging that the "Région d'Auvergne" merged with "Région Rhône-Alpes" to "Région Auvergne-Rône-Alpes" but my god how great was the Rhône-Alpes livery they should've kept it !


----------



## TER200

Flixtrain, the railway branch created in 2018 of the well-known german bus company Flixbus, plans to open 5 new lines in France for 2021.
Demand have been submited to Arafer (the authority which allows or not open-access services, either by road or rail, to be created), now they can (and likely will) be contested by the regions which operate or plan TER lines which would compete with those services.



(No article found in English, here is one in french : https://www.challenges.fr/entrepris...rojets-deposes-par-flixtrain-pour-2020_658714)


The five routes are :
- Paris Nord - Bruxelles (7 round trips a day, every 2h)
- Paris Bercy - Lyon-Perrache (5 round trips)
- Paris Austerlitz - Bordeaux (2 round trips)
- Paris Bercy (??) - Toulouse (2 round trips)

- Paris Bercy - Nice overnight (the Intercités de Nuit on this route has been discontinued last year...)



Update : I found the official document with the approximative departure/arrival times : https://www.arafer.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/notifications-sflo-versions-publiques.pdf
It also says they plan to use 500-1000 seats rakes (so 6-12 cars) with locomotives equivalent to the BB36000 (which is the type used by Thello for its trains on the french part). The Paris-Nice overnight train would have both seats and sleeping berths.


----------



## da_scotty

Let's see if the French will allow propper competition, would be very good in the long run. Next bastion of non-competition to break -> Belgium.


----------



## TER200

SNCF officially announced today that the new Intercity trains will be made by the spanish company CAF : https://www.sncf.com/fr/groupe/newsroom/commande-train-intercites
video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYyX2JmmW04

200m long (articulated with 2 x 5 cars), 420 seats, 200 km/h.


----------



## btrs

TER200 said:


> SNCF officially announced today that the new Intercity trains will be made by the spanish company CAF : https://www.sncf.com/fr/groupe/newsroom/commande-train-intercites
> video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYyX2JmmW04
> 
> 200m long (articulated with 2 x 5 cars), 420 seats, 200 km/h.


Interesting, clearly Coradia Liner did not meet expectations since their introduction on similar trains d'équilibre du territoire (French version of PSO services) ?
As for the CAF trains, on which platform will this be based ? A supered-up Civity (like Montenegro/NS SNG), or a scaled-down Oaris (Flytoget/Norway) ?
Or a completely new platform ?


----------



## TER200

btrs said:


> Interesting, clearly Coradia Liner did not meet expectations since their introduction on similar trains d'équilibre du territoire (French version of PSO services) ?
> As for the CAF trains, on which platform will this be based ? A supered-up Civity (like Montenegro/NS SNG), or a scaled-down Oaris (Flytoget/Norway) ?
> Or a completely new platform ?


1) The Coradia Liner did have problems, but mostly on one line (Paris-Troyes-Mulhouse) where they are used much more intensively than what was first planned (the fleet was ordered by the state, then the region took responsibility and decided an increase in frequencies hence a much higher mileage for the rolling stock) and long, fast rune in diesel mode (which the Régiolis, as a regional train, is not really designed for). 
The Coradia Liner which are used under state responsibility (Nantes-Bordeaux, Nantes-Lyon and Toulouse-Bayonne) do not make bad press afaik.
The contract for those trains did not allow to order sets longer than 110, nor faster than 160 km/h. So it was imperative to launch a new tender to meet the requirements for the routes Paris-Clermont-Ferrand and Paris-Limoges-Toulouse.

2) They look very similar to Renfe's series 449, which are classed as regional trains in the catalogue.
https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=219 (those are technically able to 200 km/h when fitted with standard-gauge bogies)
Similarities include : only 1 low-floor car (however the rest of the floor looks lower on this new train than on the 449), articulated architecture with 18m long cars, and design speed.
So I guess CAF did not bother to use the more expensive Oaris platform, since only 200 km/h was required.


What I don't get is the number of options.
The firm 28 trains are for the two lines from Paris I mentioned, they say 15 more would be used on the south transversal line (Bordeaux-Marseille), all those would just allow to keep the current service levels.
I have no serious idea on what they could do with sixty more...


----------



## Jordbcn

TER200 said:


> 1) The Coradia Liner did have problems, but mostly on one line (Paris-Troyes-Mulhouse) where they are used much more intensively than what was first planned (the fleet was ordered by the state, then the region took responsibility and decided an increase in frequencies hence a much higher mileage for the rolling stock) and long, fast rune in diesel mode (which the Régiolis, as a regional train, is not really designed for).
> The Coradia Liner which are used under state responsibility (Nantes-Bordeaux, Nantes-Lyon and Toulouse-Bayonne) do not make bad press afaik.
> The contract for those trains did not allow to order sets longer than 110, nor faster than 160 km/h. So it was imperative to launch a new tender to meet the requirements for the routes Paris-Clermont-Ferrand and Paris-Limoges-Toulouse.
> 
> 2) They look very similar to Renfe's series 449, which are classed as regional trains in the catalogue.
> https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=219 (those are technically able to 200 km/h when fitted with standard-gauge bogies)
> Similarities include : only 1 low-floor car (however the rest of the floor looks lower on this new train than on the 449), articulated architecture with 18m long cars, and design speed.
> So I guess CAF did not bother to use the more expensive Oaris platform, since only 200 km/h was required.
> 
> 
> What I don't get is the number of options.
> The firm 28 trains are for the two lines from Paris I mentioned, they say 15 more would be used on the south transversal line (Bordeaux-Marseille), all those would just allow to keep the current service levels.
> I have no serious idea on what they could do with sixty more...


Im afraid 449 series is not related to this bid. It would be nonsense since it is an "old" design. They are using the Civity series, which are customized upon request.


----------



## stephane09700

*Retirement at Foix station*

For my first message on the forum, I propose a video of the retirement of a train driver at the station of Foix. (On the line Toulouse-Latour de Carol.)


----------



## stephane09700

For my first message on the forum, I propose a video of the retirement of a train driver at the station of Foix. (On the line Toulouse-Latour de Carol.)

Sorry.


----------



## redstarcastles

Some pictures from Strasbourg:


25657 Strasbourg 21 June 2019


4012 Strasbourg Depot 21 June 2019


83561 at Strasbourg 21 June 2019


67569 Strasbourg Depot 21 June 2019


67464 Strasbourg Depot 21 June 2019


4524 at Strasbourg 21 June 2019

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Strasbourg-June-2019/


----------



## RyukyuRhymer

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50886116

*France strike: Trains for children back on after outcry*



> France's national railway company has backtracked on plans to cancel a popular service that allows children to travel alone over Christmas.
> SNCF said it was cancelling the service, in which children aged between 4 and 14 are accompanied by a monitor, because of strike action.
> The move sparked outcry, with some 5,000 children expected to be affected.
> But following a "Christmas truce" from some striking drivers, SNCF said it was laying on special trains on Sunday.
> The announcement came amid warnings of travel chaos over the Christmas holidays in France, where workers have been striking over planned pension reforms.


----------



## siamu maharaj

RyukyuRhymer said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50886116
> 
> *France strike: Trains for children back on after outcry*


Absolutely patéhtique they even contemplated stopping that train. Striking ANY train during Christmas time should be banned.


----------



## stephane09700

Hello,

Today, new video in Villefranche Lauragais station near Toulouse


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## 437.001

^^
Hoy do these trains deal with low platforms and handicapped passengers?


----------



## TER200

437.001 said:


> ^^
> Hoy do these trains deal with low platforms and handicapped passengers?


Which trains ?

The old Corail : they don't :lol: (you need to use a manual elevator on the platform, if the trian has a special car with a wide door).
The Regio2N have low-floor (55cm) access.

In this station, the platforms are old and lower than the 55cm standard, so basically... they don't.


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## stephane09700

Hello, Here is the first video of the tourist railway "du Tarn" near Toulouse, in the southwest of France. This line has an original track spacing of 50 cm.


----------



## 437.001

*News

ELECTRIFICATION*

The section *between Gretz-Armainvilliers, Longueville and Nogent-sur-Seine*, which is part of the Paris-Mulhouse main line has been turned on (25kV), and is already in service.
This also includes the electrification of the branch line *between Longueville and Provins*.

The remaining section of the project, the one between Nogent-sur-Seine and Troyes, is still in works.

Source: *Ligne 4 : la traction électrique jusqu'à Nogent sur Seine - transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires (canalblog.com)*

Below, images of two trains using the electrification at Longueville station (a Transilien P Paris-Provins, and an Intercités Paris-Vesoul):









Source: *Ligne 4 : la traction électrique jusqu'à Nogent sur Seine - transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires (canalblog.com)*









Source: *Ligne 4 : la traction électrique jusqu'à Nogent sur Seine - transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires (canalblog.com)*


----------



## alexandru.mircea

Does this improve the service for Provins? I can't read the article, the website is down.


----------



## 437.001

alexandru.mircea said:


> Does this improve the service for Provins? I can't read the article, the website is down.


Good question.
At least they will keep the BGC's until November 2022 (but running 100% electric between Gare de l'Est and Provins).
And after that it will be Z50000 (Francilien)... and I suppose that every now and then a Z20500 could also get there if need be (after all, they got to Coulommiers, which is a less touristy place than Provins).

The thing is... the BGC's are smaller, but... faster, than the Franciliens or the Z20500...
So I guess the improvement is in terms of capacity, the passengers to/from Provins will have more seats available.
And they will release a bit less CO2, too.

If the regularity of the line 4 between Paris and Gretz will take a hit or not because of the cascading of rolling stock, I do not know.
Maybe the timetables will have to be adapted, or maybe not, I don't know.

From now on, the only commuter rail line in Paris/IdF that runs on diesel is the La Ferté-Milon branch (of Transilien P, too).
From november on, once the Franciliens Z50000 will replace them on the Provins branch, the La Ferté-Milon branch will be the only one on the Transilien/RER network served by BGC's.

Which will allow the cascading of a few BGC's to other regions, as these trains are very much demanded.
The same will happen once the electrification will reach Troyes. All the TER Paris-Troyes will be done 100% electric from then on, so extra BGC's will be able to be cascaded somewhere else.


----------



## BillyF

Docking of the panoramic train X4208 and its wagon, circulating between the stations of Ambert and La Chaise Dieu. This circulation is organized by the association AGRIVAP the trains of discovery, which manages the tourist train of Livradois-Forez. The video was taken at Ambert station, in Puy-de-Dôme. We can see at 0:57 the Picasso X3867 train.


----------



## 437.001

A TER departing the just-reopened *Bagnols-sur-Cèze station*, bound for Nîmes.





Video by *Geoffrey Divertissement* 



A TER arriving at *Pont-Saint-Esprit station*, then departing again for Avignon.
And then also some images of TER and freight trains passing by near Saint-Just-d'Ardèche, between Pont-Saint-Esprit and Bourg-Saint-Andéol, and also at Pont-Saint-Esprit station.





Video by *bord de voie*


----------



## TER200

437.001 said:


> The same will happen once the electrification will reach Troyes. All the TER Paris-Troyes will be done 100% electric from then on, so extra BGC's will be able to be cascaded somewhere else.


There are no more BGCs reaching Troyes, this line is solely served by Coradia units (also bi-mode).
When (and if...) the electrification reach Troyes, some of the Paris-Troyes services shall switch to electric units (the same as used on the Vallée de la Marne services, currently Corail push-pull sets with BB26000R). However all the trains continuing further than Troyes (and probably some terminating here) will keep the same rolling stock.
So the main change will be additional capacity on some trains and adding relief to the rolling stock pool (maybe allowing more services to go further east, as initially planned in 2016 before they found out the rolling stock wouldn't work that much).


----------



## BillyF

In Lyon Perrache station, arrival of a "Frecciarossa 1000" train of the company Trenitalia, coming from Paris Gare de Lyon via Lyon Part-Dieu.


----------



## stephane09700

Hello everyone,

Today, I’m going to give you a short video about Carcassonne station, on the high-traffic line from Toulouse to Marseille and Nice.


----------



## BillyF

Door closure of a French Corail train, on board the TER n°17702 between Marseille Saint-Charles and Lyon Part-Dieu in Saint-Rambert d'Albon station.


----------



## geogregor

La Rochelle station, quite impressive:

P1360111 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1360121 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1360124 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Maritime details:

P1360128 by Geogregor*, on Flickr



P1360130 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Unfortunately the interior is being renovated, couldn't admire the full mosaics. They do look impressive:

P1360137 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And finally some trains. This is diesel service between Nantes and Bordeux:

P1360139 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1360146 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1360147 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I'm catching it the following day:

P1360258 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221029_093810 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

We left la Rochelle on time, nice views on the way:

20221029_094834 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

But arrived to Bordeaux around 40 minutes late. First we were stationary for around 25 minutes at Saintes and then for a bit less in the middle of nowhere, with view like this:

20221029_111152 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Finally at Bordeaux St Jean:

20221029_124348 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221029_124813 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221029_125634 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Are there plans for electrification or other improvements on that route?


----------



## TER200

geogregor said:


> Are there plans for electrification or other improvements on that route?


No. The line now has a new single track between La Roche-sur-Yon and La Rochelle, I think other parts of the track and signalling need to be renewed, but that's all.


----------



## 437.001

TER200 said:


> No. *The line now has a new single track between La Roche-sur-Yon and La Rochelle*,


Which means that it used to be double-track but was downgraded.
But that's the part between La Rochelle and Nantes, precisely the section between La Rochelle and La Roche-sur-Yon has a rather limited service, while between La Roche-sur-Yon and Nantes the line is electrified and has a lot of TER and TGV.



TER200 said:


> I think other parts of the track and signalling need to be renewed, but that's all.


Bordeaux-La Rochelle (and Nevers-Chagny in Burgundy) must be one of the few important-ish lines that are double-tracked and not electrified.
The others might be Toulouse-St Sulpice, Marseille-Aix en Provence, and Nîmes-Alès.


----------



## geogregor

437.001 said:


> Bordeaux-La Rochelle (and Nevers-Chagny in Burgundy) must be one of the few important-ish lines that are double-tracked and not electrified.


I find the whole route from Nantes to Bordeaux strangely neglected. Sure, it is not the most densely populated corridor but there are few alternative connections along the Atlantic coast


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## 437.001

geogregor said:


> I find the whole route from Nantes to Bordeaux strangely neglected. Sure, it is not the most densely populated corridor but there are few alternative connections along the Atlantic coast


Some would say that's because France is too Paris-centric.
But even if there might be some degree of that, and even if actually now there's a lot of money being invested there (metro extensions and new lines, tramway extensions and new lines, RER E extension, Charles de Gaulle Express), in fact, although the greater Paris has a population of over 10 million, it's underserved too, for its size, so Paris centralism can't be the whole explanation.

BUT... let's also remember that France is the country of Peugeot, Citroën, Renault, Dassault, and Airbus, no less...
Sometimes people forget about that.


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## 437.001

437.001 said:


> *REOPENING TO PASSENGER SERVICE*
> 
> The line *Nîmes Centre-Avignon Centre-Pont St Esprit*, in southern France (Occitanie/Provence, operated by TER Occitanie), has reopened to passenger service after almost 50 years of being relegated to freight only (and occasionally also passenger services as it's also always been used as a back-up for the Paris-Lyon-Marseille main classic line whenever it has to close for works or incidents).





437.001 said:


> 🔼🔼🔼
> The video shows how the trains from Nîmes and Avignon arriving at Pont-St-Esprit do continue on towards Le Teil station (in the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region, which hasn't reopened, maybe it will on a later phase if there's an agreement between the Occitanie and Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes regions), as, despite the existence of a point at the station, for some reason the trains do not use it, which is odd.


Here's a video filmed at *Le Teil* station (département of Ardèche, region Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes).





Video by *IMBSOFT PLM*


🔼🔼🔼
This station, which is on the line of the right bank of the Rhône (Rive Droite), is rather close to Montélimar station on the line of the left bank of the Rhône (Rive Gauche), which is the main Paris-Lyon-Marseille classic line,
The video shows a TER Marseille-Avignon-Lyon calling at Le Teil during a diversion due to works on the Rive Gauche line, accepting passengers boarding and alighting at Le Teil station.
Right after, a TER Occitanie coming from Pont-St-Esprit arrives, and goes to the reversal yard, where another EMU awaits its turn to go back to Avignon Centre, in both cases without passengers between Le Teil and Pont-St-Esprit, and running past Bourg-St-Andéol and Viviers stations without calling there.
This is because there's no agreement between the Occitanie region and the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region to accept passengers, which is odd, given that at least Le Teil station does accept passengers during diversions because of works on the main line.
The Ardèche département is the only one in mainland France without regular passenger services.
Odd.  😶


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## TER200

437.001 said:


> Bordeaux-La Rochelle (and Nevers-Chagny in Burgundy) must be one of the few important-ish lines that are double-tracked and not electrified.
> The others might be Toulouse-St Sulpice, Marseille-Aix en Provence, and Nîmes-Alès.


Also Strasbourg-Molsheim and (Strasbourg) Vendenheim-Haguenau (plus the single-track lines branching from those). Purely local and regional traffic but very high frequencies and over 100 trains per day.



geogregor said:


> I find the whole route from Nantes to Bordeaux strangely neglected.


Yes... similarly to Lille-Metz or Caen-Rennes, except those have infrastructure mostly in better shape.



437.001 said:


> BUT... let's also remember that France is the country of Peugeot, Citroën, Renault, Dassault, and Airbus, no less...
> Sometimes people forget about that.


Well, the countries of Volvo, BMW or Fiat don't neglect their railways at tat point, though.

Also I don't see what Dassault is doing here, they didn't build a commercial aircraft for 50 years. I'd rather put Colas and other road building companies...


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## 437.001

geogregor said:


> I find the whole route from Nantes to Bordeaux strangely neglected. Sure, it is not the most densely populated corridor but there are few alternative connections along the Atlantic coast


Blimey, I forgot that the Nouvelle-Aquitaine government is planning an RER for Bordeaux, so it's likely that they electrify the line between Carbon-Blanc and St-Mariens (including the big bridge over the Dordogne). St-Mariens would be the terminus for trains coming from Langon (on the Toulouse classic line).

So, if that RER Bordeaux ends up happening as currently planned, and if itb turned out that they electrified Carbon Blanc-St Mariens (which is a big if as of now), that would leave St Mariens to Beillant, Saintes, Rochefort and La Rochelle non-electrified.

However, if we also take into account the fact that there's the plan for the HSL Bordeaux-Toulouse, there could be a possibility for a TGV Grand Sud Marseille-La Rochelle that would use the HSL between Marseille and Montpellier, and also between Toulouse and Bordeaux.
Calling at Aix-TGV, Avignon-TGV, Nîmes (whichever of the two), Montpellier (whichever of the two), Béziers, Narbonne, Carcassonne, Toulouse, Montauban, Agen, Bordeaux, Jonzac, Saintes, and Rochefort, that could be a significant number of passengers.

Electrifying the remainder of the line to La Rochelle would then make sense, I suppose (and some TGV Paris-La Rochelle could be extended from La Rochelle to Rochefort and Saintes, I guess).

Or maybe none of this at all, who knows.


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## 437.001

TER200 said:


> Also Strasbourg-Molsheim and (Strasbourg) Vendenheim-Haguenau (plus the single-track lines branching from those). Purely local and regional traffic but very high frequencies and over 100 trains per day.


Right you are.
I always forget the lines from "up there".



TER200 said:


> Yes... similarly to Lille-Metz or Caen-Rennes, except those have infrastructure mostly in better shape.


But not many trains between Metz and Lille, particularly between Metz and Charleville, for what I read (or between Aulnoye and Charleville, can't remember which bit now).

As for Caen-Rennes being in "better shape", that's a recent thing, and it involved eliminating the double track.
When I used it some 15 years ago, the section between Folligny and Dol was in a rather worrying state.



TER200 said:


> Well, the countries of Volvo, BMW or Fiat don't neglect their railways at tat point, though.
> 
> Also I don't see what Dassault is doing here, they didn't build a commercial aircraft for 50 years. I'd rather put Colas and other road building companies...


Maybe, but Dassault is part of the industry, which also includes smaller companies doing parts of the things, and etc.
Lobbies, that's what I meant.

Although you're right that Germany or Italy could also find themselves in similar situations, and yet they don't...


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## davide84

TER200 said:


> Well, the countries of Volvo, BMW or Fiat don't neglect their railways at tat point, though.


The country of FIAT got rid of most tram networks and some regional rail lines between 1930 and 1970.
But at least FIAT had a railway division so there was an interest in keeping up at some level, e.g. with the Pendolino.

FIAT is not directly the cause of everything, but it was a major force in pushing the car culture and car economy.

For example, the government had for decades subsidized the purchase of private cars in form of "eco-discounts", officially with the purpose of improving the air quality. But it was always clear that the main target of discounts was for "popular" cars where FIAT had a clear national market dominance. All that money could have gone elsewhere. Yes it also boosted national jobs, but could have boosted jobs in other sectors.


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## fabricofparis

TER200 said:


> Well, the countries of Volvo, BMW or Fiat don't neglect their railways at tat point, though.


As a Brit I find all this talk of France "neglecting" her railways drily amusing.
There are still major axes of the English railway network (the Great Western and Midland main lines) whose electrification isn't finished yet. France's system looks pretty good in comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railw...Railway_map_of_France_-_2020_-_en_-_small.svg


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## NCT

Britain has dragged its heels with electrification, but lack of electrification isn't the only barometer of neglect.

Overall Britain is good at maximising the value of existing assets - diesel lines are still operated at 'bus frequencies' - TransPennine operated 6 trains per hour Pre-Covid, Midland Main Line operates 4 trains per hour up to Leicester. France is better in terms of electrification but service frequencies are stingy. Paris - Amiens ought to be half-hourly with hourly extensions to Boulogne; similarly a British attitude to service frequency would have provided half-hourly Paris - Orleans with hourly extensions to Tours and Limoges.


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## PippO.SkaiO

Are there projects to electrify railways lines in Corsica?

Sicily: electrified at 3kV apart some secondary lines (e.g the Etna railway)
Sardinia no electrification yet, works will start shortly for electrification of the main line Cagliari-Golfo Aranci (section Cagliari-Oristano) 
Cyprus: no railways
Crete: no railways
Mallorca electrified all its network in 2018 at 1.5 kV
Are there other railways in the med islands?


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## TER200

fabricofparis said:


> France's system looks pretty good in comparison


When you look from far enough, so you don't see that half of the track needs renewal, most of the signalling is outdated and sometimes the OHLE also nearing it's end of life.


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## Clery

PippO.SkaiO said:


> Are there projects to electrify railways lines in Corsica?


The only rail line in Corsica crosses mountains and is rather slow. So it has mostly a touristic value to appreciate the scenery.

Corsica is very sparsely populated (about 300,000 inhabitants) and very mountainous, so there is little incentive to develop rail. Moreover, larger cities (Ajaccio and Bastia) are squeezed between the sea and the mountains, therefore they expand more in a suburban style outside the historical centers where the terrain is flat enough to be built: Balleone/Mezzavia for Ajaccio, Furiani for Bastia. All this together makes the island heavily car-centric.

All this to say that I don't believe the rail line between Ajaccio and Bastia will be electrified anytime soon.


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## bruno amsterdamski

^^ Is there any goods trains in Corsica?


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## Clery

bruno amsterdamski said:


> ^^ Is there any goods trains in Corsica?


It depends what you call good trains. Service-wise, it's very limited. The line was built during the 19th century with only a single-track operated four times a day in both directions between Ajaccio and Bastia by very small 2-car diesel trains.

But as a tourist, I would recommend it. Corsican mountains are really stunning.


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## bruno amsterdamski

^^ By "goods trains" I mean "cargo (freight) trains", opposite to "passenger trains"


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## Clery

bruno amsterdamski said:


> ^^ By "goods trains" I mean "cargo (freight) trains", opposite to "passenger trains"


Ah ok sorry! 
I didn't have the answer so I checked wikipedia and apparently there are freight trains, something like twice a week.


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## BillyF

In Montélimar railway station, arrival and departure of the TGV Duplex n°6193 coming from Paris Gare de Lyon, and going to Miramas. Shortly before the TGV was docked, a FREIGHT train pulled by 3 BB7200 locomotives passed on the opposite track.


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## dyonisien

BillyF said:


> In Montélimar railway station, [...], a FREIGHT train pulled by 3 BB7200 locomotives passed on the opposite track.


Just one pantograph raised --> just the first locomotive pulls the train, the other two being being pulled for some transfer.


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## 437.001

BillyF said:


> In Montélimar railway station, arrival and departure of the TGV Duplex n°6193 coming from Paris Gare de Lyon, and going to Miramas.


Do you think there's any chance of the Côte Bleue line to be electrified between L'Estaque and Rassuen?
Or is it too complicated because of the Caronte viaduct? 

If yes, then I suspect there would be a good case for extending the Paris-Miramas TGV's to Martigues, with an intermediate stop at Istres.


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## btrs

Does anybody know if SNCF Réseau eventually plans to convert more 1.5kV DC lines to 25kV sometime in the future ? If we take a look at the lines in the Lyon area (Lyon-Ambérieu-Aix les Bains; Aix - Chambéry - Modane; the western section of the Albertville line), these are all still DC while the connected lines are 25kV.

Most stock deployed there is already dual-voltage, or otherwise dual-mode (B81500, although I don't think the Région Auvergne-Rhône Alpes has those ? Only ZGC and XGC ?). So why keep those 300 km+ of lines in DC for that singular Z2 or BB7200 pulled service ? Enough stock available to replace them..


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## 437.001

btrs said:


> Does anybody know if SNCF Réseau eventually plans to convert more 1.5kV DC lines to 25kV sometime in the future ? If we take a look at the lines in the Lyon area (Lyon-Ambérieu-Aix les Bains; Aix - Chambéry - Modane; the western section of the Albertville line), these are all still DC while the connected lines are 25kV.





btrs said:


> Most stock deployed there is already dual-voltage, or otherwise dual-mode (B81500, although I don't think the Région Auvergne-Rhône Alpes has those ? Only ZGC and XGC ?). So why keep those 300 km+ of lines in DC for that singular Z2 or BB7200 pulled service ? Enough stock available to replace them..


I'm not certain of the outcome of converting Modane station to dual 3kV/25kV, I read somewhere that there's potential trouble at Ventimiglia station about that (I mean, from the Italian side).

But other than that, yes, I think the network in the area would become stronger by converting the following sections:
a) Ambérieu-Culoz-Aix les Bains-Chambéry-Montmélian-St Pierre d'Albigny-Modane.
b) Culoz-Bellegarde.
c) St Pierre d'Albigny-Albertville.

However, I'm not certain about converting the section Lyon-Ambérieu being a good idea, as freight uses that section to avoid Mâcon and Chalon sur Saône between Lyon and Dijon by running via Bourg en Bresse, St Amour and Louhans.


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## TER200

btrs said:


> Does anybody know if SNCF Réseau eventually plans to convert more 1.5kV DC lines to 25kV sometime in the future ?


Nothing officially. They can barely prevent the existing infrastructure from crumbling, so any serious modernization can be forgotten unless someone else pays most of it. In most cases they renew the infrastructure with the same (insufficient) performance.
However the power available between Lyon and Ambérieu will be increased, as part of a plan to increase the capacity of the Ambérieu - Lyon - Saint-Etienne trains (from 2 to 3 380-seat trainsets in rush hour).



437.001 said:


> However, I'm not certain about converting the section Lyon-Ambérieu being a good idea, as freight uses that section to avoid Mâcon and Chalon sur Saône between Lyon and Dijon by running via Bourg en Bresse, St Amour and Louhans.


It makes even more sense then, considering the new line (CFAL) that may be built one day and connect smewhere between Lyon and Ambérieu, and have 25 kV catenary of course.




btrs said:


> Most stock deployed there is already dual-voltage, or otherwise dual-mode (B81500, although I don't think the Région Auvergne-Rhône Alpes has those ? Only ZGC and XGC ?).


Région Auvergne-Rhône Alpes has no XGC, but B81500s (Diesel + 1500V, they're almost the same price as the Diesel only but more economical to run when you have some 1500V wire) and 82500s (Diesel + dual-voltage).
The reason is not the rolling stock since the remaining single-voltage types (except B81500) will probably be extinct before any large-scale project is achieved (the Z2s used in this region were dual-voltage anyway, but I don't think they'll see commercial service again), but the cost of it (requiring to modify or rebuild many bridges and tunnels) for a limited benefit.


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