# FRANCE | High Speed Rail



## TRZ

This is factually inaccurate, the fastest train in the world is of maglev technology posessed by Japan (the Yamanashi track, current record is 582km/h). TGV would still be fastest experimental test run for steel on steel though, even Shinkansen max out around just a little above 400, but they are looking at commercial operating speeds in excess of 350 with the latest models (Fastech, not yet in service although testing is mostly complete).


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## Tubeman

CharlieP said:


> Exactly my point. I've asked in the past if we can have a Railways subforum but without any luck.


I'd support this. Trains are trains are trains


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## TRZ

WotaN said:


> I smell that they want to compete with japanese Maglev and hit 600 km/h, just to show that new technology is obsolete since the old one is capable of reaching same speeds


The speed isn't maglev's best payoff though, unless in a vacuum, which isn't safe yet, but it would be faster than air travel if it were. Maglev outperforms because of its frictionless property, meaning dramatically less wear, meaning cheap cheap cheap to maintain.


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## DonQui

Depends on how you defend rail-based transport. Some are loathe to call anything rail that is not wheel-rail. Some language heighten this distinction, in Spanish it is called "FERROcaril," mean "Iron rail."

I personally am inclined to not call maglev rail. Something else, but not rail. And don't ask me why, I know it is an artificial distinction.


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## TRZ

DonQui said:


> Depends on how you defend rail-based transport. Some are loathe to call anything rail that is not wheel-rail. Some language heighten this distinction, in Spanish it is called "FERROcaril," mean "Iron rail."
> 
> I personally am inclined to not call maglev rail. Something else, but not rail. And don't ask me why, I know it is an artificial distinction.


Japanese is the same story, the characters for TETSUDOU mean Iron road as well, but the debate isn't on whether or not it is rail, it is the fact, an undeniable fact, that it is a train, the same word used in the original article (they said train, not rail), the companies managing these services are run like railway companies (or in Japan's case the same company, excluding Limino) and as far as I know, all language recognize maglev as a train, and that is the most important point, since trains are the best form of mass transportation of people over land. People should care less whether the train runs on rails or hovers on its guideways. That rubber-tire shit? It's considered a railway (it is certainly considered a subway when it is underground), right? But it isn't steel-on-steel either. It's a moot point, because a train is a train regardless of the technology applied, as long as car traffic doesn't share space with it (the biggest problem with tram systems)


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## CharlieP

Tubeman said:


> I'd support this. Trains are trains are trains


Well I've asked again nicely:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=11017839


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## Minato ku

TRZ said:


> That rubber-tire shit? It's considered a railway (it is certainly considered a subway when it is underground), right? But it isn't steel-on-steel either. It's a moot point, because a train is a train regardless of the technology applied, as long as car traffic doesn't share space with it (the biggest problem with tram systems)


In reallity in France rubber tired trains run on rail and it is a steel-on-steel


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## C-Beam

The German ICE trains once used hybrid rubber/steel wheels in order to achieve higher comfort and less noise. The inner hub of the wheel was made of steel, on it came a ring of rubber and then an outer ring of steel again. Unfortunately one of these hybrid wheels caused the Eschede accident and therefore ICEs now use conventional all steel wheels again.


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## elfabyanos

It failed because the maintenance regime was not being adhered to (i.e. ultrasonic fracture testing wasn't being done properly), and while the design of the wheels may be partly to blame, that type operates on many trains all around the world with no problems.


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## eomer

Some picture of LGV (HSR) Mediterrannée between Valence and Marseille.









Valence's junction between LGV Rhone-Alpes and LGV Meditrranée.









Valence-TGV: platforms and passing tracks (350 km/h). 









La Garde Adhémar: LGV above A7 motorway and the double Bow-String.









Roquemaure: LGV Med along A9 motorway on the right side of the Rhône.









Les Angles: junction Paris-Marseille and Paris-Montpellier. 









Les Angles: the fabulous double bridge over the Rhône river.









Avignon South: LGV over motorway toll.









Avignon south: the old N7 and the LGV.









Vernegues: a viaduc between two tunnels. Photograph missed the train... 









Ventabren: her majesty Ventabren's viaduct over RD10 and A8 motorway.









Ventabren: just for your pleasure, a second picture of Ventabren's viaduct (remenber "Taxi").

Lot of other pictures at http://lgv2030.free.fr choose "Gallerie".


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## DonQui

fantastic shots!

:drool:


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## Jean Luc

Excellent photos! Thanks for posting them... 

For a fantastic view of what the driver sees on a trip from Marseille to Paris by TGV (including the LGV Méditerranée) get yourself the following video or DVD: http://www.video125.co.uk/acatalog/Marseilles_to_Paris_DVD.html


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## Mekky II

The LGV Est, that will connect Paris to Strasbourg in the future, broke the former record of 515,3 km/h establied in 1990. With a new record established this morning *553 km/h*, SNCF and Alstom take advantage of such advertising for their companies but also give a rendez-vous : "See you in april !" SNCF and Alstom have the project to go to 570 km/h with their new technologies. Fans of high speed trains already trust that to go over 600 km/h is possible considering this morning record but president of Alstom temperates "we will not put in danger people working on our project, we will go as far as the technology can." Story to follow in next months.


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## CharlieP

Awesome news.


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## The Cebuano Exultor

*@ Mekky II*

Wow! 553 km/hr is fast, indeed! That's probably even faster than the fastest Maglev (Japan's Maglev) in the world.

Btw, how does this compare to Japan's Fastech?


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## Coccodrillo

A Japan maglev train reached 581 km/h.

Anyway maglev can reach these speeds (or little lower) in normal service, while TGV can't.


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## Minato ku

But It is very fast for a conventional train.
Indeed Maglev have no friction, It can run faster with less danger.


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## Bitxofo

Good record, but it is an experiment, not top speed for standard TGV!


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## Eastender

the japanese maglev mlx-01 still holds the record at 581,0 km/h
french tgv-est is second with 553 km/h (515,3 km/h was old record)
third comes germany's transrapid at 501,0 km/h


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## yayoo

But Maglev and Transrapid are not conventionnal trains ... so it has absolutely no sense to compare them with the tgv.


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## [email protected]

Valence TGV:


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## [email protected]

Avignon TGV:


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## [email protected]

Aix en Provence TGV


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## eomer

Salif said:


> Excuse my ignorance but are they extending Marseille St Charles?


Yes: since 10 years at least !!!

In the futur, there will be an other TGV Station in Marseille next to old "Blancarde Station": it will open with the HSR track "Italy-Catalonia" (Genova)-Nice-Toulon-Marseille-Avignon-Montpellier-Narbonne-Perpignan-(Barcelona)


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## Douly

yeah it is kind of a non ending construction site. Normally the "halle honorat extension" is to open by June 2007 (but I am pretty sure it is going to be delayed...another time).

Actually the whole city center is "under construction" due to euromed projects, tram and extension of the metro.

Urban planners are currently working on Marseille's Blancarde train station, trying to figure out how it can be extended to receive LGV ARC MED trains.


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## Guest

eomer said:


> Yes: since 10 years at least !!!
> 
> In the futur, there will be an other TGV Station in Marseille next to old "Blancarde Station": it will open with the HSR track "Italy-Catalonia" (Genova)-Nice-Toulon-Marseille-Avignon-Montpellier-Narbonne-Perpignan-(Barcelona)


How big will this extension be? 



Douly said:


> yeah it is kind of a non ending construction site. Normally the "halle honorat extension" is to open by June 2007 (but I am pretty sure it is going to be delayed...another time).
> 
> Actually the whole city center is "under construction" due to euromed projects, tram and extension of the metro.
> 
> Urban planners are currently working on Marseille's Blancarde train station, trying to figure out how it can be extended to receive LGV ARC MED trains.


Is the main problem fitting in 400 metre long platforms?


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## Karakuri

minato ku said:


> Don't exagerate
> SNCF service is better than most of world trains compagnies.
> It is right comparated at Japanese trains compagnies Sncf is :bash:.


Of course I exagerated. In fact the TGV service is perfect, punctual, clean and fast...but the local train service is... anyway that's not the subject.


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## RSG

Thats is fantastic but I would not feel safe travelling at those speeds along rails. I loved watching the TGVs passing us while driving on the motorways in France. It showed us that driving at 120km/h is not that fast. I did not get to ride in a TGV but I rode the Eurostar and the Thalys which I believe have similar speeds.


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## Guest

RSG said:


> Thats is fantastic but I would not feel safe travelling at those speeds along rails. I loved watching the TGVs passing us while driving on the motorways in France. It showed us that driving at 120km/h is not that fast. I did not get to ride in a TGV but I rode the Eurostar and the Thalys which I believe have similar speeds.


It's perfectly safe so don't worry.

Eurostar and Thalys trains are TGV's aswell.


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## eomer

Salif said:


> They should run a silver and blue TGV duplex to London St Pancras when the CTRL fully opens just to see what it looks like


TGV Duplex are not allowed to cross the channel tunnel with passengers onboard for easy understanding safety raisons. Eurostar are specialy design to cross the _chunnel_.


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## Guest

eomer said:


> TGV Duplex are not allowed to cross the channel tunnel with passengers onboard for easy understanding safety raisons. Eurostar are specialy design to cross the _chunnel_.


I think it's usually Kent Fire Brigade who have the final say over what can and cannot use the channel tunnel?

Shame really, we'll soon be a proper part of the European high speed railway network. Be nice to actually increase the scope of services that can use the CTRL.


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## Metropolitan

eomer said:


> TGV Duplex are not allowed to cross the channel tunnel with passengers onboard for easy understanding safety raisons. Eurostar are specialy design to cross the _chunnel_.


This being said, there are still duplex trains which cross the chunnel everyday, and those are called "le Shuttle" ! You know those on which you put your cars in. They are on 2 levels.

As far as I know, Eurostars aren't faster than shuttle trains inside the tunnel. As such, I don't know for which reason there wouldn't be duplex trains also with the Eurostar!


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## yayoo

I'm not sure but i heard somewhere that Eurostar can go across the channel at 160kph wheras the double decker shuttle is limited at 110kph


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## eomer

Metropolitan said:


> As far as I know, Eurostars aren't faster than shuttle trains inside the tunnel. As such, I don't know for which reason there wouldn't be duplex trains also with the Eurostar!


€* are allowed to 160 km/h into the tunnel. Le Shuttle are 120 km/h only.
Using Duplex trains: why not is the futur but existing TGV Duplex could not because:
- Train should be cut by the middle in case of fire. 
- Special fire doors must be closed between coachs during tunnel transit.
- Materials should resist more than 15' in case on fire.


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## Think1st

eomer said:


> €* are allowed to 160 km/h into the tunnel. Le Shuttle are 120 km/h only.
> Using Duplex trains: why not is the futur but existing TGV Duplex could not because:
> - Train should be cut by the middle in case of fire.
> - Special fire doors must be closed between coachs during tunnel transit.
> - Materials should resist more than 15' in case on fire.


I thought in case one locomotive takes fire the second should take the other one out of the tunnel. So why cutting of in the middle? Please correct me if I am wrong.


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## le lyonnais du 81

Great pics eomer!!!

a new tgv line will be inaugurated in june between Paris and Starsbourg where train will do 320km/h.


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## Guest

Think1st said:


> I thought in case one locomotive takes fire the second should take the other one out of the tunnel. So why cutting of in the middle? Please correct me if I am wrong.


The Eurostar TGV's are made up of two half sets, incase of a fire both half sets can be split and taken out of the tunnel in opposite directions after the fire has been isolated. I believe that one of the on board train managers is qualified to drive the train out of the tunnel.


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## Douly

*Marseille st charles extension*

3 months ago.


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## yayoo

New record 5 days ago at 557kph
Video avaliable here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/tgv+record/video/x1ac4w_tgv-4402

and a second one there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6lBjd2Ij8I

And a really cool link for those who wanna all the speed records in video:

http://tgv16orange.free.fr/videos.html


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## [email protected]

> According to our information, last 13 February, on the new line Paris Strasbourg, a TGV reached, in the neighbourhoods of the km 190 in the direction Strasbourg-Paris, the record speed of *559,4 kph* (and not 553 kph as announced in "Le Parisien"). The train was made up of two "boosted" motor coaches and motorized bogies. According to personnel's on board, "one slightly slowed down not to exceed the 560 km/h", speed planned for the next official and approved record.


http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/societe/20070224.OBS4098/le_tgv_a_5594_kmh.html

True or not ?


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## hix

^^ So the investments they did will be used later. In the Belgium newspapers they said the 30.000.000 was only for the ride. If they build a complete new train with this money it's not only for a record attempt. I suppose they will try to build a new and superfast train based on this technology? Do you think it will be possible to reach these speeds in commercial service?


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## steph35

> So the investments they did will be used later


yes probably, as for the TGV that had the record of 515.3kph is used as a normal TGV



> In the Belgium newspapers they said the 30.000.000 was only for the ride. If they build a complete new train with this money it's not only for a record attempt.


this TGV is in a record configuration, 2 locomotives and 3 passengers cars (full of computer for this record)... but after this ride this TGV can be configure for a commercial exploitation, with 2 locomotives and 8 or 10 passengers cars...



> I suppose they will try to build a new and superfast train based on this technology? Do you think it will be possible to reach these speeds in commercial service?


this TGV call AGV is a new technology, no other train used or actually use it
the commercial speed of the future AGV, if SNCF buy it, will be 350kph...
...580kph commercial speed, probably during the next century


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## Phil

What costed 30 million euros is the several months of test ride, measures, preparation of the train, etc; not just Tomorrow's ride on TV.


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## Karakuri

[email protected] said:


> Since 2001, the TGV runs at 320kph during 40km between Avignon and Aix en Provence...


That's right but what I meant is that in 2009 commercial speed of the new generation TGV called AGV will be 350kph.


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## Minato ku

It is 350 Kph


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## Karakuri

minato ku said:


> It is 350 Kph


My bad! Of course, I corrected.


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## Facial

Facial said:


> Do the (bogies) still have monoblock wheels?


Does anyone knowabout this still? I'm going venture a guess and say yes the technology still uses monoblock wheels (that is, the axle+2wheel pair is a single block of steel)


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## steph35

^^ 
is this answer to your question?
the bogies are motorized on the V150









www.transport.alstom.com


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## Trainman Dave

TRZ said:


> Hey, the source is from JR East, if you have a problem with it, take it up with them. If JR East says that it will be running its ***est model train at a commercial speed of 360 or so and with a max speed over 400 in some segments of the line by next year, then it is hard to argue since nobody else would know better - _especially _not you.


I finally found the discussion of the Fastech 360S on the JR East web site. It confirmed that the 360S is a simple prototype for a future comercial specification and the timetable was extremely vague. The specification, not the commercail units, might be available in 2008. The 405 km/h tesing of this prototype is about the equivalent of the 550+ km/p testing of the French AGV on the LGV-est. Both sets of tests are designed to verify new technologies prior to commercial specifications for operational trains. Historically it has taken 5 to 10 years for the comercial implementation of the new technologies on Japan's Shinkansen trains. 

The most interesting part of the 360S is that it actually has two different nose shapes, one at each end to test noise suppression and it has some active tilt technology to reduce the vibrations at higher speeds. Other technologies being tested are three different types of boogie, at least two variations on the pantographs, durable breaking technologies and ice suppression technologies which will be essential when they reach Hokaido.


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## Karakuri

574,8 km/h !!!!!!!!!!!
The record has just been broken. :banana:


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## saônant

:cheer: :cheers:


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## calenzano

574,8 Kph


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## Minato ku

And now it is official


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## ChrisZwolle

It was cool to watch


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## steph35

a link to the video of the record, from TV france2/dailymotion

record AGV 574,8 km/h


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## juanico

WOW! :nuts:


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## CharlieP

Awesome stuff. It's a shame they couldn't have found the extra 7km/h and beaten the Maglev record speed too!


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## SkyLerm

OMG impressive video, thx for sharing!! :cheers:


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## big-dog

I just watched this news on TV, it's amazing. running as fast as a airplane on the ground, wowwwwwwwwwwww!


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## LocksRocks

Well Done to the French, a fantastic job.
I just hope that when the phase two of the CTRL is completed and people in the see just how impressive these machines are the money will be invested expanding a greater TGV based network in the UK.


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## poponoso

_*Amazing speed, and so close to the Maglev record...*_


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## Substructure

Congratulations ! Well done


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## ZZ-II

must be an breathtaking feeling to be in the train at this speed


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## dreaad

here is the official site

http://www.record2007.com/site/index_en.php


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## Brice

Karakuri said:


> 574,7 kph !!!!!!!!!!!
> The record has just been broken. :banana:



we say km/h, kph is not correct


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## Bitxofo

Congratulations!
:dance:

MAGLEV train record is 581km/h.


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## big-dog

Bitxofo said:


> Congratulations!
> :dance:
> 
> MAGLEV train record is 581km/h.



Why didn't the conductor put a bit more gas and break the maglev record yesterday? :lol: 574 is so close to 581km/h


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## Douly

Congrats!!


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## Blue Viking

Vive la France!!! Beautiful work!


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## Karakuri

Bitxofo said:


> Congratulations!
> :dance:
> 
> MAGLEV train record is 581km/h.


And planes can do mach 2.5


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## Vapour

That was fast!


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## gladisimo

space shuttles go even faster


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## Karakuri

gladisimo said:


> space shuttles go even faster


Damn! You're right!


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## eomer

gladisimo said:


> space shuttles go even faster


That's right but if you want to go from Paris to Strasbourg...


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## yayoo

Fantastic video Here, the speed and the sound (plane & Tgv at the same time) are incredible!!

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/tgv+record/video/x1mb99_tgv-new-world-speed-record


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## steph35

thanks for the link, very impressive !!
the sound of the train is really incredible


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## Bitxofo

big-dog said:


> Why didn't the conductor put a bit more gas and break the maglev record yesterday? :lol: 574 is so close to 581km/h


Yeah, I wonder the same!
:yes:


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## Metropolitan

I don't believe it makes such a difference if the record would have been 582 km/h rather than 574 km/h. What Alsthom wanted to prove was simply that high speed rail was still competitive and had still room for development compared with the maglev technology.

We have trains running at 320 km/h in commercial use everyday in France. Granted it's slower than the maglev, but high speed rail remains cheaper to build and to maintain than maglev does. At such a speed, a high speed rail line between San Diego, LA and San Francisco could be competitive against airplanes.


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## Karakuri

Metropolitan said:


> I don't believe it makes such a difference if the record would have been 582 km/h rather than 574 km/h. What Alsthom wanted to prove was simply that high speed rail was still competitive and had still room for development compared with the maglev technology.
> 
> We have trains running at 320 km/h in commercial use everyday in France. Granted it's slower than the maglev, but high speed rail remains cheaper to build and to maintain than maglev does. At such a speed, a high speed rail line between San Diego, LA and San Francisco could be competitive against airplanes.


Exactly. Moreover, the new Alstom AGV High Speed Train is already designed for 350km/h in commercial use, which may sound to make not so much difference in European countries, but which may be quite important at the US or Chinese scale.


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## TRZ

Metropolitan said:


> We have trains running at 320 km/h in commercial use everyday in France. Granted it's slower than the maglev, but high speed rail remains cheaper to build and to maintain than maglev does. At such a speed, a high speed rail line between San Diego, LA and San Francisco could be competitive against airplanes.


Maglev is more expensive to build, but cheaper to maintain (at ~300km/h). This is maglev's strongest point, not its speed.


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## ZZ-II

Brice said:


> we say km/h, kph is not correct


that's the same ^^


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## Brice

Nein


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## TRZ

Brice said:


> Nein


^^Ja. It is the same. km/h is more widely used, but kph is still understood. It is like pphpd where they also use "p" for "per", hence kph is acceptable.


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## Minato ku

I would find the picture of the HQ of the SNCF with this.  









HQ of SNCF


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## CharlieP

TRZ said:


> ^^Ja. It is the same. km/h is more widely used, but kph is still understood. It is like pphpd where they also use "p" for "per", hence kph is acceptable.


"kph" is *not* acceptable - first of all the symbol for kilometres is km, not k, and secondly, SI units[1] should be written with a / or a negative exponent.

[1] km/h are not part of SI, but accepted for use in it.


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## odegaard

TRZ said:


> Maglev is more expensive to build, but cheaper to maintain (at ~300km/h). This is maglev's strongest point, not its speed.


says who? where's the proof?

Unfortunately TRZ there's not that much public data available to prove that maintenance expenses for maglev systems are cheaper.

However putting that aside lets ask ourselves why would a maglev system be cheaper to maintain? Is it because there is no friction?

NOTHING lasts forever, even something that is not subjected to friction. The electromagnets on a maglev line would eventually degrade through other factors like weather and heat generation. If it's superconducting then there's a complex cooling system that has to be maintained and that can't be cheap. 

Furthermore I'd like to point out there are STRESSES placed on the system. Even though there are no wheels the weight of the maglev train still gets transfered to the line via electromagnetic forces. However the weight would be more evenly distributed throughout the length of the train and not concentrated at wheel to rail contact points like a conventional train. This may be more advantageous from a structural perspective but those stress forces still exist. 

Secondly A maglev line must be very accurately "aligned". I'm going to assume this alignment must be monitored regularly and re-adjusted when necessary to stay within tolerances.

Sorry TRZ I have yet to see conclusive proof...so the verdict is still out. My gut tells me a maglev system is not something that can be built, then ignored and assumed to function properly perpetually simply because there is no friction. It still needs "attention" and that costs money.

my 2 cents...feel free to disagree :cheers:


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## Brice

TRZ said:


> ^^Ja. It is the same. km/h is more widely used, but kph is still understood. It is like pphpd where they also use "p" for "per", hence kph is acceptable.



kph is not an abbreviation of the international system SI. It is nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Km/h


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## C-Beam

steph35 said:


> this TGV call AGV is a new technology, no other train used or actually use it


What is new about it?


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## Facial

I suspect it's something new with the suspension; Hunting oscillations are a killer.


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## Jean Luc

The AGV is an EMU (electric multiple unit). That is, it has traction motors distributed along the length of the train mounted on the bogies, like the Japanese Shinkansen. The existing TGV has power cars at each end, with usually only the first bogies on the adjacent passenger carriages powered as well, and hence is not an EMU.

Check out:
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/frenchtgv (scroll down to rolling stock)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotrice_à_grande_vitesse


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## De Snor

The Rhine-Rhone high-speed line consists of three branches: the Eastern branch, the Western branch and the Southern branch.

The whole Rhine-Rhone high-speed project may be likened to a three-pronged star:










- the Eastern branch, between the Dijon (Genlis) and Mulhouse (Lutterbach) urban areas, with 190 km of new line.
- the Western branch, from the Western end of the Eastern branch towards Paris via Dijon.
- the Southern branch, from the junction of the two other branches towards Lyon.

A view of the track:
http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com/medias/pdf/medias79.pdf

http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/lgv_RR_BE.pdf

A project with a difference : Journey times

With the very first tranche of the Eastern branch, journey times for a large number of origin-destination pairs will be substantially reduced.










A project with a difference : Key figures

A few figures illustrating the scale of France’s biggest civil engineering project

- 140 km of line, including 40 % through forests
- 85 municipalities
- 6,000 site-related jobs
- 160 bridges
- 12 viaducts
- 12-km long tunnel
- 400 km of fencing
- 500,000 sleepers
- 2 new stations
- 24 million m³ of excavations
- 18 million m³ of embankment

A project with a difference: timelines

The line will be built in two stages: earthworks and civil engineering structures between 2006 and 2009, and railway equipment (rails and overhead lines, signalling systems and fencing) between 2009 and 2011.










More info : http://www.lgvrhinrhone.com/english.php & http://www.rff.fr/pages/projets/fiche_projet.asp?lg=fr&code=147&codeRegion=9


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## Insane alex

I just love the french railway, especialy the TGV!


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## eomer

It's a bit late but it's done: http://lgv2030.free.fr

Soon the 40 000° viewer: a pint of bier for the man (or woman) who bring me a copy of the screen with number 40 000 !


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## De Snor

A great site you got kay:


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## ER_441

With Gare de Lyon and Gare Montparnasse being both already being congested railway terminals in Paris, are there plans that SNCF is planning to upgrade Gare d'Austerlitz, so that some of the train services on the TGV Sud-Est (Paris-French Riviera, Montpellier and Lyon) can be used for by both Gare de Lyon and Gare d'Austerlitz?

Currently Gare d'Austerlitz is predominantly used for their overnight train service to/from Spain and Gare de Lyon serves trains that are bound for Lyon and the French Riviera.


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## 33Hz

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article3310022.ece



> John Lichfield: Shunted off in a tale of two railways
> 
> *While British trains are a byword for chaos, vision and flair are the French way*
> 
> Published: 05 January 2008
> 
> While we curse our railways, the French celebrate them. And expand them. The Grand Palais, the enormous exhibition hall just off the Champs-Elysées, has been turned into a virtual railway station until next week, housing rolling stock and artistic displays to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the SNCF, the French state railway system.
> 
> To mark the occasion, Guillaume Pépy, the dynamic deputy head of the SNCF, and head of Eurostar, invited a few Paris-based European journalists to lunch. For someone such as myself, who is not afraid to admit that he was once a trainspotter and remains a great enthusiast for railways, the exhibition – L'Art entre en gare – was a delight.
> 
> So were M. Pépy's bubbling enthusiasm and vision for railways as a transport system, not of the past, but of the future. His vision is all the more exciting – or depressing if you prefer – against the background of the latest tangle of rail-engineering delays and line closures in Britain.
> 
> Not all recent developments on Britain's railways have been bad but we no longer, it seems, have anyone capable of making strategic decisions, or inspired guesses, about the shape of the eco-friendly rail systems that we need. Two centuries, almost, after we invented railways, where are our Stephensons or Brunels? Or even our Pépys?
> 
> Guillaume Pépy hopes that the French government will make the development of railways – and especially high-speed railways – one of the principal themes of its presidency of the European Union in the second half of this year. In particular, M. Pépy hopes that Paris will be able to persuade its European partners to back the latest bright idea to come from the SNCF: *high-speed overnight goods trains.*
> 
> Most of the high-value, next-day-delivery business, handled by FedEx, DHL and others, goes by air. The SNCF has been working with Air France and FedEx on the possibility of using high-speed railway lines at night to capture much of this traffic for rail (and reduce the level of carbon emissions per parcel by as much as 80 times). M. Pépy hopes that the idea – called "Carex" – can be spread Europe-wide, as Europe's high-speed rail network expands.
> 
> A couple of high-speed double-decker parcels trains on the new fast line between Paris and London would carry as much overnight cargo and parcels traffic as two jumbo jets. At present, the fast line to the Channel Tunnel is closed at night for maintenance. So are all the high-speed railway lines in France.
> 
> M. Pépy and the SNCF want to use these lines, after midnight, for a few high-speed "cargo express" trains. If spread across Europe, he believes that the idea would not only reduce carbon emissions but also radically reduce the cost of overnight letters and packages. The SNCF, FedEx and – interestingly – Air France have already commissioned preliminary studies for *double-decker, TGV cargo trains, capable of carrying everything from a postcard to a full-size freight container*. Such a network would help to reduce the noise nuisance of freight flights in the early hours. It would reduce transport carbon emissions. It would strengthen the economic and environmental case for the building of further high-speed railway lines.
> 
> The SNCF is already planning to introduce night TGV trains later this year. These will be "party" trains, aimed at young people who, as M. Pépy says, associate traditional overnight trains with "the smell of socks". On the new high-speed trains, bookable only on the internet, passengers will not be expected to sleep: they will dance, watch films, play games, or "do anything they like so long as it is decent".
> 
> "Only 12 per cent of Europe's carbon emissions come from transport," M. Pépy says. "But that 12 per cent is enormous. Everyone knows that it is going to be difficult to reduce the carbon footprint of industry and home-heating. All eyes will turn to transport. It will simply no longer be acceptable, in 20 or 30 years' time, that short-haul journeys between European cities are conducted by air transport. There must be a more rational division between the use of aircraft on medium - and long-haul journeys and high-speed railways for short-haul journeys."
> 
> What does M. Pépy mean by short haul? He suggested that all journeys up to at least 500km (or 300 miles) should naturally become rail journeys. In France – and increasingly in Italy, Spain and Germany – the high-speed lines are being built or planned which make that vision possible. The SNCF is already in discussion with the Spanish railways to create a new service from Brussels to Madrid, using high-speed lines in three countries.
> 
> By 2020, France should have 3,000km (1,864 miles) of high-speed railway line. President Nicolas Sarkozy recently promised that studies would commence on the building of another 2,000km of lignes à grande vitesse by 2030.
> 
> *The extra lines are likely to include a new link across the breadth of the south of France from Toulouse to Nice and a second line to the French entrance to the Channel Tunnel, passing through Amiens instead of Lille. They are also likely to include a second trunk line from Paris to Lyons, to relieve Europe's first high-speed line, opened in 1981, which is approaching capacity.*
> 
> All of these new lines may, if marketing and engineering studies prove positive, be constructed with their double tracks further apart. This would allow the SNCF to run a new generation of TGVs with service speeds up to 360km/h (224mph) instead of 280 to 320km/h on existing lines.
> 
> How exciting. How depressing.
> 
> The rebuilt London St Pancras station is magnificent but is likely to remain the terminus of a high-speed branch line. Given the muddle over routine maintenance of Britain's overburdened railway network, what is the hope of this, or any, British government taking the courageous, strategic decision to build lignes à grande vitesse to the north of England and Scotland?
> 
> If M. Pépy is right, air traffic between London and Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds – even Glasgow – will be politically and ecologically unacceptable in two decades' time. One strategically placed high-speed line up the spine of Britain could link 80 per cent of the nation's population. The cost of building such a line would be immense. So will be – already is – the cost of not doing so.


----------



## AR1182

Most major British cities don't seem to be as far apart from each other as Paris and Marseille or Bordeaux, so I don't think high-speed lines would have the same effect on travel times as in France. I'm not saying there's no need for them in Britain, but I think a lot of things could and should be worked on before building high-speed lines. It doesn't really take that kind of infrastructure nor "two decades' time" to make Air traffic between London and Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds "polictically and ecologically unacceptable".

British loading gauge and platform lengths, for example, make capacity increases on existing lines more difficult than in France and most of continental Europe. The existing infrastructure doesn't allow double-deck trains or up to 470 metres long double units as in France. Even the most congested or fastest British main lines still lack proper in-cab signalling systems, despite them being so common in other European countries. Many of those British main lines haven't even been electrified yet, which increases operational costs and emissions and reduces rolling stock performance.

It seems that by just upgrading the existing infrastructure with rather common equipment like in-cab signalling (allowing the existing rolling stock to reach the 225 or 240 Km/h it has been designed for instead of less than 200 Km/h), and by reducing stops en route, even longer journeys like London-Glasgow or London-Edinburgh could be done in less than four hours, which would give the train a very reasonable competitiveness without huge investments and years of construction works. Even less would be needed to reach a similar competitiveness on much shorter distances, like London-Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/York/Newcastle/Leeds or Birmingham/Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh.


----------



## UrbanBen

Four hours? Reasonable? Paris-Strasbourg is now 2h and some - to be reduced to 1h50 in the decade. That's longer than London-Manchester. Three hours to Glasgow seems reasonable.


----------



## AR1182

UrbanBen said:


> Four hours? Reasonable? Paris-Strasbourg is now 2h and some - to be reduced to 1h50 in the decade. That's longer than London-Manchester. Three hours to Glasgow seems reasonable.


I was refering to the last words of the article:



> If M. Pépy is right, air traffic between London and Manchester, Liverpool and Leeds – even Glasgow – will be politically and ecologically unacceptable in two decades' time.


The less than four hours for London-Glasgow I was talking about would already be enough to consider "air traffic politically and ecologically unacceptable", and being slower than the Paris-Strasbourg TGV certainly wouldn't make it unreasonable. A new high speed line could of course further improve journey times, and I'm not saying it would be useless, but it doesn't seem indispensable for reasonable journey times.

As for London-Manchester, the completion of current WCML works in 2008/2009 will allow journey times of 1h58 minutes (which could be further reduced by nonstop trains), even without in-cab signalling and with a top speed of just 200 Km/h. None of the competing means of transport will be able to beat that, which makes the train very competitive in my opinion. This doesn't make HS2 unnecessary, but I guess if it's built some day it'll be rather to increase capacity than because of the 25 minutes it would slice off existing journey times.


----------



## Zibou

HSL in France were build to cut off journeys' time, but also in order to increase the availability of regular (or "classic") railways for regional train service (Train Express Régional).
However, even if the country is investing so much in new railways, local ones are pretty dilapidated in some areas : I think of some lines in Massif Central that are often in quite a bad state (with rails dating back from the 1920s or 1930s)... and funding just doesn't follow for those local lines. Since the 1990s and the _décentralisation_, the Régions have taken up the actual TER service, but railways remain the property of RFF and of the State.


----------



## elfabyanos

Wallaroo said:


> Is this the replacement for TGV? How much faster can it accelerate? Are the TGV tracks suitable for 350 km/h?


LGV Est and Nord are designed for this speed mostly curvature-wise. Not sure about the rest of the network. South of Lyon is ok for 330km/h I believe. All the new lines will be built to the new standard though.


----------



## dougfr69

Wallaroo said:


> Is this the replacement for TGV? How much faster can it accelerate? Are the TGV tracks suitable for 350 km/h?


It's the remplacent of the TGV at 1 level but not to the TGV duplex. Delivery of Duplex continue until 2010 to the SNCF in France and has just been sold in Argentina (TGV Duplex Cobra).
TGV tracks are suitable for 350 km/h on the recent lines (Since 2000) (Lyon-Marseille, Paris-Baudrecourt(Strasbourg).)And the new future Rhin-Rhône line.


----------



## Momo1435

^^
This is also *not* the replacement for the old 1 level TGVs from SNCF, they haven't ordered AGV from Alstom yet. It's all in the article posted by Alvar Lavague, SNCF keeps on ordering more TGV Duplex sets.


----------



## xote

FUGLY. Looks as if they tapped into the nightmares of a drunk Japanese shinkansen designer.


----------



## Alvar Lavague

The SNCF will replace a part of its TGVs, an invitation to tender will be released this year. Alstom's AGV will compete with Shinkansen, Siemens' Velaro and Bombardier's high speed train.


----------



## UrbanBen

Tri-ring said:


> I see Alstom is finally coming to their senses dropping the locomotive drive design and adopting the distributed power system like other HSRs.
> The locomotive drive was already to it's potential limits and saw increasing disadvantages with more carts to pull on a single train set limiting the speed and high axis load on the locomotive cart damaging the rails.
> The down size is the minimum number of carts on a single train set will become larger to obtain 360Km/h since power is combined from each cart.


Didn't we go over this? Air resistance is hugely more important than rolling friction at those velocities. There's no reason conventional can't pass maglev - it's more stable at high speed anyway because of the physical contact reducing air vibration.


----------



## xote

UrbanBen said:


> Didn't we go over this? Air resistance is hugely more important than rolling friction at those velocities. There's no reason conventional can't pass maglev - it's more stable at high speed anyway because of the physical contact reducing air vibration.


I am equally critical of maglev and don't see it being a practical technology. But, there would need to be significant advancements in the engineering of rails to permit "conventional" trains to go the speed of maglev. The recent test in France LGV-Est absolutely destroyed the track.


----------



## Alvar Lavague

A video from France 2 TV news :
http://jt.france2.fr/20h/index-fr.php?jt=0&start=602


----------



## sdf11

I prefer that:










or that one:











I think that it would be more fast...near 400km/h...the Velaro have the same maxim speed and it was designed few years ago...and in my opinion, the Velaro/ICE 3 looks better...


----------



## Wallaroo

dougfr69 said:


> The new AGV presented this morning.
> 350-360 km/h in commercial service
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.transport.alstom.com


Does Alstom even exist anymore - thought Bombardier bought them? 

I dont understand why the entrance doors in TGV trains and this are so narrow. Why are they not made with broad double doors in the middle of each car?


----------



## Alvar Lavague

Bombardier never bought Alstom! :crazy:
The door you can see on the picture is meant for the driver. Anyway, I don't know any Intercity or high speed train with double doors in the middle of the car.


----------



## Momo1435

@Wallaroo
That would mean more space for the doors and less space for seats, that's not 'economical' enough. And it's not a commuter train, 1 small door per car is enough. The doors in the ICE aren't much bigger and the Shinkansen even has smaller doors, so maybe big double doors could be problematic with these high speeds.

Bombardier bought the German-Swedish-Swiss ADTranz, not Alstom.


----------



## dougfr69

sdf11 said:


> I prefer that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or that one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that it would be more fast...near 400km/h...the Velaro have the same maxim speed and it was designed few years ago...and in my opinion, the Velaro/ICE 3 looks better...


yes but the first advantage is that the new AGV is 15 to 30 % more economic than the trains of the current generation


----------



## Tri-ring

elfabyanos said:


> I don't buy that. Locomotives are only a certain size too - if size is an inherent limit for one concept it's a limit for another.


It's a simple physics fact.
The answer lies within the amount of wire wrapped within a motor.
If you use the same material, 200M wrapped around a magnetic core will always have stronger output then a motor that only has 100M.
Therefore bigger the mass, potentially you have more space to wrap wire equating to larger output.
The trick is how to balance weight with mass.



UrbanBen said:


> Didn't we go over this? Air resistance is hugely more important than rolling friction at those velocities. There's no reason conventional can't pass maglev - it's more stable at high speed anyway because of the physical contact reducing air vibration.


And I have already responded to that with a simple physics equation E=1/2ma^2, stating that air drag is converted into mass which has a big toll on maximum speed.
As for air vibration, that can be reduced dramatically with aerodynamics and magnetic conduction minimizes side flurry vibrations.


----------



## Wallaroo

Momo1435 said:


> @Wallaroo
> That would mean more space for the doors and less space for seats, that's not 'economical' enough. And it's not a commuter train, 1 small door per car is enough. The doors in the ICE aren't much bigger and the Shinkansen even has smaller doors, so maybe big double doors could be problematic with these high speeds.
> 
> Bombardier bought the German-Swedish-Swiss ADTranz, not Alstom.


Of course when high speed trains stop so few times its irrelevant. It is still better IMO with a double door in the middle of the car than two small doors in each end of the car.


----------



## Wallaroo

Take a look at this ugly motherfucker! :lol:

Its actually a seperate (one way) locomotive, and its just as fast as the new AGV and ICE 3. 

I wonder how fast it can go without the carriages.


----------



## Dan

Yikes, that one is hideous! What were they thinking...


----------



## UrbanBen

xote said:


> I am equally critical of maglev and don't see it being a practical technology. But, there would need to be significant advancements in the engineering of rails to permit "conventional" trains to go the speed of maglev. The recent test in France LGV-Est absolutely destroyed the track.


I can imagine it did! I would say 430km/h, the same as maglev does on the Shanghai line, would be possible in the coming decade or two, though.


----------



## UrbanBen

Tri-ring said:


> And I have already responded to that with a simple physics equation E=1/2ma^2, stating that air drag is converted into mass which has a big toll on maximum speed.
> As for air vibration, that can be reduced dramatically with aerodynamics and magnetic conduction minimizes side flurry vibrations.


While that is an equation, it's not the equation that describes air friction with the front of the train. That equation (for drag) is:










As you can see, it's second order - it scales exponentially as v increases.

Friction doesn't even increase as v increases! Forces due to friction with the trackway remain generally the same (although the normal force with the track increases linearly with v on the leading edge of the train), and therefore as velocity increases, drag becomes by far the largest component of resistance to movement.

When you're talking about 300-400kph, the limitations are systemic (yes, the rails take some damage if they're not designed for it) but mostly energy-related, and for Japan much of the resistance (hah) to making faster trains is just due to tunnel boom.


----------



## Tri-ring

Wallaroo said:


> Take a look at this ugly motherfucker! :lol:
> 
> Its actually a seperate (one way) locomotive, and its just as fast as the new AGV and ICE 3.
> 
> I wonder how fast it can go without the carriages.


Isn't that the Talgo 350?


----------



## Railfan

Conceptual Desing


----------



## Grygry

Zibou said:


> The only thing is : this train will not be able to travel at 350 km/h on lines where 300 km/h TGV are actually running... especially on the TGV Nord and TGV Sud-Est lines, which are running to capacity.


... unless all trains on one lines are AGVs.
That's more likely for TGV Est because of the tracks that are much straighter. Same for upcoming sections of TGV Atlantique...

Anyway this train was not designed for French needs specifically. It is the first time it is developped without a command from the SNCF. In fact it's called AGV because TGV is a trademark from the SNCF.
Also the recent needs of SNCF were more double deckers TGVs (duplex) to increase capacity on SE line, the AGVs is a little topic in the French network for today's needs.


----------



## growingup

And here is on youtube:


----------



## Wallaroo

Avientu said:


>


Can the driver choose a certain speed (like 250 km/h) for the train to accelerate to automatically, or does he have to control that manually?

IMO it would be better only to use automatic speed selection, so that the train always accelerates and brakes as much as it can without people and coffecups tilting.,


----------



## ZZ-II

wasn't this also an conceptual design for this train?:


----------



## elfabyanos

Wallaroo said:


> Can the driver choose a certain speed (like 250 km/h) for the train to accelerate to automatically, or does he have to control that manually?
> 
> IMO it would be better only to use automatic speed selection, so that the train always accelerates and brakes as much as it can without people and coffecups tilting.,


I'm not entirely sure, I though the drivers could just set a speed. On having a search round the web I can't find any exact descriptions. There is certainly a automatic braking control during emergency braking to ensure safety.


----------



## sotavento

Zibou said:


> The only thing is : this train will not be able to travel at 350 km/h on lines where 300 km/h TGV are actually running... especially on the TGV Nord and TGV Sud-Est lines, which are running to capacity.





Grygry said:


> ... unless all trains on one lines are AGVs.
> That's more likely for TGV Est because of the tracks that are much straighter. Same for upcoming sections of TGV Atlantique...
> 
> Anyway this train was not designed for French needs specifically. It is the first time it is developped without a command from the SNCF. In fact it's called AGV because TGV is a trademark from the SNCF.
> Also the recent needs of SNCF were more double deckers TGVs (duplex) to increase capacity on SE line, the AGVs is a little topic in the French network for today's needs.


that's right ... SNCF actualy is trying to INCREASE the "Duplex" capacity by removing the middle powercars (duplex run in double units)


They have plans to motorize de bogies in the extremities of the coach set (to maintain the same power/weithg ratio) and increase each train from 2x8 to 2x9 coaches ... in the process they will gain some 64 "free" powercars (one of each set will became available). :cheers:

Basicaly they will became like Eurostar stock with double set's of 1 power car and 9 coaches each ... wich means some 10% more capacity in each set (Comparing to today) and already more power units to add new cars and make some 32 other sets of Duplex (?).


----------



## elfabyanos

^^ I saw this proposal too. I'm not sure how they're going to get the same power to weight ratio, does anyone have any ideas? They could power the axles in the end trailers, but would that mean the remaining loco in each half-set would have to take on twice as much transforming/electrical conversion as it did before? If so I'm sure the remaining loco would have to be modified as well. I'm sure it can be done, would just like to know how!!!


----------



## 33Hz

elfabyanos said:


> ^^ I saw this proposal too. I'm not sure how they're going to get the same power to weight ratio, does anyone have any ideas? They could power the axles in the end trailers, but would that mean the remaining loco in each half-set would have to take on twice as much transforming/electrical conversion as it did before? If so I'm sure the remaining loco would have to be modified as well. I'm sure it can be done, would just like to know how!!!


Like this 










http://www.entreprise-sncf.com/sncf_demain/TGV GC.pdf

The end and middle bogies of the rake would be powered bogies, giving the same power/weight as if a loco was used. On a normal length train, the front loco is powered from the pantograph at the back. On this proposal, both pantographs would be used and would feed bus power to the train. The same shrinking in transformers / power components that allows the AGV to be built would enable conversion of the supply from 25kV to the 4 intermediate power bogies. These would be housed in the area over the bogies that you can see in the diagram above.


----------



## 33Hz

ZZ-II said:


> wasn't this also an conceptual design for this train?:


It is interesting that it looks nothing like the previous prototype - which I think looks better.










Although I think the new one looks better outside in this shot.


----------



## elfabyanos

33Hz said:


> Like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.entreprise-sncf.com/sncf_demain/TGV GC.pdf
> 
> The end and middle bogies of the rake would be powered bogies, giving the same power/weight as if a loco was used. On a normal length train, the front loco is powered from the pantograph at the back. On this proposal, both pantographs would be used and would feed bus power to the train. The same shrinking in transformers / power components that allows the AGV to be built would enable conversion of the supply from 25kV to the 4 intermediate power bogies. These would be housed in the area over the bogies that you can see in the diagram above.


Thanks! :cheers:


----------



## RSG

Is there any information on the power supply requirements of the new train?

Also, is it possible to run a high speed train on overhead lines until on board batteries are charged by using alternators which could run the train whilst in country areas thus reducing support structure costs. Once back in city areas they could be run on overhead lines. The reason I ask is because here in Australia these costs are one of the reasons we do not have high speed trains.


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## elfabyanos

There's no way really a battery could hold enough power to operate the train for more than a very short distance, I think it would be unviable.


----------



## desiderio_100578

At first sight I thought the train looked ugly but the more I watch it the more I like it...
I suspect that when in motion it will look awesome...
Funny news:SNCF is said not to be eager not to buy it because they focus on maximum passenger capacity so they might go for duplex TGV but...Air France KLM-certainly pissed off to lose market shares to HST-are rumoured to move into rail travel...and buy the AGV!!!:lol:


----------



## 33Hz

RSG said:


> Is there any information on the power supply requirements of the new train?
> 
> Also, is it possible to run a high speed train on overhead lines until on board batteries are charged by using alternators which could run the train whilst in country areas thus reducing support structure costs. Once back in city areas they could be run on overhead lines. The reason I ask is because here in Australia these costs are one of the reasons we do not have high speed trains.


Currently the UK is tendering for a replacement for the HST which will be able to use both 25kV where it is available and diesel engines where it is not. This is called the Intercity Express Programme. It will be a kind of hybrid EMU / DMU.

The original HST is what you Aussies bought from us Poms and called the XPT. Perhaps you would like to join in and purchase some of these new models too?


----------



## Railfan




----------



## Tri-ring

Now I got it!!


When I first saw this picture;










It reminded me of something but I wasn't able to put my finger on it until I saw an old revival movie.










It's Mosra in it's larval state. :lol:


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ Sorry but I can't really see the resemblance...
Not more at least than an ICE3 would resemble it...


----------



## trainrover

^^
^^ Heh heh, neat shape connectivity





xote said:


> FUGLY. Looks as if they tapped into the nightmares of a drunk Japanese shinkansen designer.


Its looks can`t matter were it to blur by most of its locales






Avientu said:


>


Some seriously freaky height to this single-decker






33Hz said:


>


Unh-unh, this train`s hot-looking, snap out of it!


----------



## 33Hz

Tri-ring said:


>


----------



## Railfan




----------



## aussiescraperman

lol the new design is cool, what is wrong with you Europeans.


----------



## Railfan

I love the New Desing


----------



## Avatar

LOL i thought it looked like the space shuttle orbiter too!

It's an industrial design styling catastrophe I hate to say and the worst looking train I have seen in a long time.


----------



## 33Hz

Railfan said:


>


Where are the passenger windows in this picture? Didn't they tell Marketing it is an MU?


----------



## Augusto

33Hz said:


> Where are the passenger windows in this picture? Didn't they tell Marketing it is an MU?


May be it's the freight version


----------



## ddes

TGV/AGVs have freight versions? Thought they were solely passenger services.

This kind of reminds me like the Shinkansen 500 series trains. And it's a compliment just in case anyone mistakes it for something else.


----------



## Yappofloyd

33Hz said:


> Where are the passenger windows in this picture? Didn't they tell Marketing it is an MU?


Why would the front engine car need pax windows?


----------



## asahi

^^ It's not an engine car. Not like in TGV. 
AGV is a Multiple Unit which doesn't need locos. 
Here's the photo from previous page:


----------



## PredyGr

33Hz said:


> Where are the passenger windows in this picture? Didn't they tell Marketing it is an MU?


With photoshop, it is easy to remove the windows.


----------



## Augusto

ddes said:


> TGV/AGVs have freight versions? Thought they were solely passenger services.
> 
> This kind of reminds me like the Shinkansen 500 series trains. And it's a compliment just in case anyone mistakes it for something else.


Yes there are only a few freight TGV today but also some interresting projects with DHL from CDG Paris airport. But I was joking about the AGV picture above. I don't know why there are no windows on this carriage. 
Here a "La Poste" (mail delivery service) TGV: (from trainsdumonde.chez-alice.fr)


----------



## 33Hz

PredyGr said:


> With photoshop, it is easy to remove the windows.


I'm sure it is, but why would they when they are trying to tell the world that they now have high-speed multiple unit technology? It's strange.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

I love the design of this train. It's not like any other high speed train, which all look the same.


----------



## PredyGr

33Hz said:


> I'm sure it is, but why would they when they are trying to tell the world that they now have high-speed multiple unit technology? It's strange.


The original picture is at alstom's site, check the wallpapers section, alstom never published this picture, i think Railfan made it to show the similarities with the space shuttle.


----------



## 33Hz

PredyGr said:


> The original picture is at alstom's site, check the wallpapers section, alstom never published this picture, i think Railfan made it to show the similarities with the space shuttle.



I see.


----------



## Wallaroo

Does anyone know if the train driver in this train (or in any newer trains) can choose a certain speed (like 250 km/h) for the train to accelerate to automatically, or does he have to control that manually?

IMO it would be better to only use automatic speed selection with cruise control, so that the train always accelerates and brakes as fast and smooth as it can without people and coffecups tilting over.


----------



## PredyGr

Wallaroo said:


> Does anyone know if the train driver in this train (or in any newer trains) can choose a certain speed (like 250 km/h) for the train to accelerate to automatically, or does he have to control that manually?
> 
> IMO it would be better to only use automatic speed selection with cruise control, so that the train always accelerates and brakes as fast and smooth as it can without people and coffecups tilting over.


All ICE generations and most modern loco types have "cruise control" .


----------



## 33Hz

Furthermore, it can usually automatically follow the current allowed speed set by the cab signalling.


----------



## Railfan

No new photo of AGV?


----------



## Msradell

Augusto said:


> Yes there are only a few freight TGV today but also some interresting projects with DHL from CDG Paris airport. But I was joking about the AGV picture above. I don't know why there are no windows on this carriage.
> Here a "La Poste" (mail delivery service) TGV: (from trainsdumonde.chez-alice.fr)


Does DHL have any plans to do on board sorting on the trains like "La Poste" does on some routes? It's an interesting concept and I'm sure also has some cost benefits in addition to the shortening of delivery time.


----------



## Augusto

Msradell said:


> Does DHL have any plans to do on board sorting on the trains like "La Poste" does on some routes? It's an interesting concept and I'm sure also has some cost benefits in addition to the shortening of delivery time.


I was wrong when I said DHL. In fact there a project that involves Fedex: http://www.roissymail.com/_Images/NL/16f545bcab/ff5c7cedc9/eurocarxCONFERENCE060407.pdf


----------



## 33Hz

Msradell said:


> Does DHL have any plans to do on board sorting on the trains like "La Poste" does on some routes? It's an interesting concept and I'm sure also has some cost benefits in addition to the shortening of delivery time.


The UK Royal Mail did this for decades, until they scrapped the mail trains for trucks and planes a few years ago. When after about 2 years they realised this was a mistake, they reintroduced 125mph trains, but without the sorting facility onboard. Now the train just gets the mail to the depot as soon as possible, where it is sorted.

Having claimed to have done a thorough economic analysis, perhaps sorting onboard is not the optimal way to do it, especially as the journey times decrease and the use of more sophisticated sorting machinery increases.


----------



## Railfan




----------



## asahi

First thing I thought when I saw it was that it's the most ugly train I've ever seen, but now I think that a good paint job could change a lot and that it's not that bad 
Thought the first design was better imo.


----------



## trainrover

^^ I'm finding it looks better from above than below . . . I like its moulded curves seeming strikingly calm or subtle . . .


----------



## Maelstrom

This train is sexy, I cream my pants from just looking at it. I don't know how many of you guys can hate it!


----------



## interesting monster

Maelstrom said:


> This train is sexy, I cream my pants from just looking at it. I don't know how many of you guys can hate it!


I agree... this train is sex on rails.


----------



## UrbanBen

pflo777 said:


> this 350 vs 360 kmh vmax is only a political thing.
> Those 10 kmh difference dont change anything for the passengers.
> 
> The next big step would be to give it the same performance in acceleration and decceleration as the german and japanese maglev trains have.
> But thats a very very big step.
> 
> and the AVE-S103 at least is close to commercial service. The 350 kmh vmax in everyday service should be reached that year.When will the AGV reach that speed in everyday service? and on which roure?


The Japanese Shinkansen (which are not maglev, just so I know you know) have better acceleration than anyone else anyway. The reason is that they're entirely grade-separated.


----------



## elfabyanos

Japanese Shinkansen have better acceleration because they have the best power to weight ratio of all the high speed trains except the Velaro which is almost as good. Every other country's high speed networks are entirely grade separated (except when they run over classic lines, but that's true of Japan also, and this is mainly confined to city centres).


----------



## beto_chaves

Portuguese televisions and newspapers said that this new high speed train could be in use in the new Lisbon-Madrid and Lisbon-Oporto high speed lines by 2013 and 2015.


----------



## Railfan

beto_chaves said:


> Portuguese televisions and newspapers said that this new high speed train could be in use in the new Lisbon-Madrid and Lisbon-Oporto high speed lines by 2013 and 2015.


----------



## Railfan

AGV : Performance and modularity

The challenge

Air transport currently presents travellers with numerous problems, from extended check-in times to overcrowded airports. The challenge for very high speed rail travel is to offer a commercial service speed of 360 km/h, passing the threshold of 1,000 km in three hours to further increase the appeal of train travel over other modes of transport.

Pressure on energy costs have also led rail operators to demand exceptional cost performance. The ratio between train capacity and energy consumption has, as a result, become a decisive market factor.

Alstom has developed a new generation of very high speed trains, AGV (Automotrice Grande Vitesse), to meet these new requirements

The concept

Designed to travel at 360 km/h, the AGV is the first train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power. The principle of the articulated train set is based on a design that places bogies between the cars. This technique, which has ensured Alstom’s success for 25 years, eliminates much of the vibration and rolling noise on board, cushions movement between cars, optimizes aerodynamic performance, guarantees maximum security, and reduces maintenance costs by 30%. The distributed power principle spread along the train increases on-board capacity by 20%.

The combination of articulated architecture, composite materials, and improved traction systems have made it possible to reduce the mass of the AGV by 70 tonnes compared to competitors’ trains. The AGV is therefore particularly efficient from an environmental point of view, consuming 15% less energy.

Distributed power also offers the advantage of modularity in relation to car numbers. Based on an AGV range comprising between 7 and 14 cars, each operator can built up a fleet to match their capacity requirements.

Key figures

* Modular design: 7 to 14 cars (130 to 250 m)
* Seats: 250 to 650
* Mass: 270 to 510 tonnes
* Power: 6,000 to 12,000 kW (22 kW/t)
* Traction equipment : Quadri-voltage 25 kV 50 Hz / 15 kV 16.7 Hz / 3 kVdc / 1.5 kVdc, water-cooled IGBT traction converters, permanent magnet motors


----------



## ddes

This is not very related but I will ask anyway.

Why are Shinkansen finding it hard to reach the 360km/h barrier? Their Fastech 360 trains are finding it hard to reach those speeds commercially while the AGV seems to be able to reach it quite comfortably.


----------



## CharlieP

I think you mean "mark", not "barrier"


----------



## interesting monster

Railfan said:


> AGV : Performance and modularity
> 
> The challenge
> 
> Air transport currently presents travellers with numerous problems, from extended check-in times to overcrowded airports. The challenge for very high speed rail travel is to offer a commercial service speed of 360 km/h, passing the threshold of 1,000 km in three hours to further increase the appeal of train travel over other modes of transport.
> 
> Pressure on energy costs have also led rail operators to demand exceptional cost performance. The ratio between train capacity and energy consumption has, as a result, become a decisive market factor.
> 
> Alstom has developed a new generation of very high speed trains, AGV (Automotrice Grande Vitesse), to meet these new requirements
> 
> The concept
> 
> Designed to travel at 360 km/h, the AGV is the first train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power. The principle of the articulated train set is based on a design that places bogies between the cars. This technique, which has ensured Alstom’s success for 25 years, eliminates much of the vibration and rolling noise on board, cushions movement between cars, optimizes aerodynamic performance, guarantees maximum security, and reduces maintenance costs by 30%. The distributed power principle spread along the train increases on-board capacity by 20%.
> 
> The combination of articulated architecture, composite materials, and improved traction systems have made it possible to reduce the mass of the AGV by 70 tonnes compared to competitors’ trains. The AGV is therefore particularly efficient from an environmental point of view, consuming 15% less energy.
> 
> Distributed power also offers the advantage of modularity in relation to car numbers. Based on an AGV range comprising between 7 and 14 cars, each operator can built up a fleet to match their capacity requirements.
> 
> Key figures
> 
> * Modular design: 7 to 14 cars (130 to 250 m)
> * Seats: 250 to 650
> * Mass: 270 to 510 tonnes
> * Power: 6,000 to 12,000 kW (22 kW/t)
> * Traction equipment : Quadri-voltage 25 kV 50 Hz / 15 kV 16.7 Hz / 3 kVdc / 1.5 kVdc, water-cooled IGBT traction converters, permanent magnet motors


Wasn't Talgo the innovator in articulated train sets? I seem to remember reading that on their web site.


----------



## Trainman Dave

interesting monster said:


> Wasn't Talgo the innovator in articulated train sets? I seem to remember reading that on their web site.


Yes. They built the first articulated trainset prototype before the WWII


----------



## Trainman Dave

ddes said:


> This is not very related but I will ask anyway.
> 
> Why are Shinkansen finding it hard to reach the 360km/h barrier? Their Fastech 360 trains are finding it hard to reach those speeds commercially while the AGV seems to be able to reach it quite comfortably.





BenL said:


> Great news but surely 300 km/h is rather old stock? Surely they should be looking at something like the AGV or ICE3?


This is not a problem of technology, but rather it is a problem of geography.

It takes time and distance to accelerate and decelerate to and from speeds of 300 km/h. France and Spain (but not Germany) have routes which operate at 300+ km/h becuase they have train services which run for 200 to 300 km between stations. In Germany, Italy and the UK the HSL's are/will operated with 100 to 200 km between stations. 

Using trains with the capability to operate at more than 300 km/h is a wasted investment in geography's such as United Kingdom as the short distances between station will prevent these trains from ever running st their design speed. Look at the example of Japan which has built at least four prototypes which were capable of speed greater than 350+ km/h but none of them have yet been introduced into commercial operation. 

Japan has very few Shinkasen stations separated by more than 100 km so the ever cautious Japanese maney managers have not yet developed an operating pattern which would utilize these faster trains


----------



## elfabyanos

ddes said:


> This is not very related but I will ask anyway.
> 
> Why are Shinkansen finding it hard to reach the 360km/h barrier? Their Fastech 360 trains are finding it hard to reach those speeds commercially while the AGV seems to be able to reach it quite comfortably.


In what way have you heard they are finding it hard? The train has reached 400 km/h quite happily in 2005 or 2006. They have a number of self-imposed technical restrictions which must cause difficulties, but it's not because they lack the capability. Shinkansen have slightly harsher sound restrictions, as well as efficiency requirements at about the same level as the AVG if not better, plus they have traditionally gone for much higher amounts of power in their trains. This is a good piece:

http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/development/tech/pdf_8/Tec-07-02-05eng.pdf


----------



## Chafford1

elfabyanos said:


> .....it's not because they lack the capability...


I've read the Japanese will be running the Fastech 360s at 320 km/h (199mph) in commercial service. 

French Railways are looking at 360 km/h (225mph) but have stated that they're not sure whether customers will pay a premium to run trains at this speed.


----------



## UrbanBen

Chafford1 said:


> I've read the Japanese will be running the Fastech 360s at 320 km/h (199mph) in commercial service.
> 
> French Railways are looking at 360 km/h (225mph) but have stated that they're not sure whether customers will pay a premium to run trains at this speed.


Where did you read this about Fastech? I'm curious - it seems plausible, just because of the increased energy costs from that 40kph. They've been advertising Sapporo-Tokyo nonstop runs in about 2014 with a time of 3h57m, though - you can't do that at 320.


----------



## elfabyanos

It is plausible, do you have the source chafford1?


----------



## Momo1435

Here's the official press release of JR-East of the order for the trains based on the Fastech 360:
http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/press/20070704/index.html

and the "Tohoku Shinkansen Speed Increase" outline:
http://www.jreast.co.jp/e/press/20071101/index.html

320 km/h will be the maximum speed on the Tohoku Shinkansen.


----------



## sotavento

UrbanBen said:


> The Japanese Shinkansen (which are not maglev, just so I know you know) have better acceleration than anyone else anyway. The reason is that they're entirely grade-separated.


^^ One of the BASIC conditions for a given strecth of railtrac kto be considered of "high speed" is that it must fully be grade separated and ENCLOSED (no trespassing alowed) hno:


And how come a grade separation can influence the performance of a moving veicle is beyond the scope of modern science. :nuts:


----------



## fishcatdogbird

LOVE IT, looks ace! Wish OZ had these up the east coast.


----------



## Trainman Dave

sotavento said:


> ^^ One of the BASIC conditions for a given strecth of railtrac kto be considered of "high speed" is that it must fully be grade separated and ENCLOSED (no trespassing alowed) hno:
> 
> 
> And how come a grade separation can influence the performance of a moving veicle is beyond the scope of modern science. :nuts:


Its bureaucracy not physics!!

You are quoting either EU or UIC regualtions which are classifications developed to assign different applications for funding to categories which have little or no relationship to operations.

In this case the bureaucrats consider level crossings a risk at high speeds so they will only fund high speed lines which are grade separated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CYA!!!!!!!!!!

Why 160 km/h not 140 km/h?
When the regualtions were first formulated 160 km/h was the normal maximum speed of operations on most railways!


----------



## Railfan




----------



## jkjkjk

Some pics from testing circuit:
by Vladimír Fišar


----------



## DYZIO_MARZYCIEL

wow, it's wonderful !!! Please more and more photos


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## jkjkjk

Video:

http://1.im.cz/videoplayer/videopla...p://media.novinky.cz/240/2402-video-nyivt.flv

Enjoy narration in Czech :banana:


----------



## 33Hz

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/30/content_8846332.htm


----------



## ZZ-II

absolutely great train, though i like the design of the ICE3 still more


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## elfabyanos

I'm beginning to like it more. It has a great utilitarian feel, a no-nonsense practicality.


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## Thermo

I like'm too! I wich the Belgian railways ordered some of these in stead of those fugly Italian ones!


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## foxmulder_ms

It is mean...  liked a lot..


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## hans280

ZZ-II said:


> absolutely great train, though i like the design of the ICE3 still more


I think Alstom did it deliberately. They went for a "techno" design rather than soft aestetic lines, inter alia to underscore their sales arguments vis-a-vis Siemens. They have always harped on the more solid design of their TGVs, which for instance unlike the ICEs don't fold up in the case of derailment. A second set of benefits of the AGV is supposed to be the better energy economy and the (marginally) higher top speed. By designing the train in this slightly "edgy" way they make the following point: "Yes, yes... Siemens's Velaro is sweet and stylish. Here now comes strong and fast!"


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## xlchris

NIce. I begin to like it everytime I see it.


----------



## 33Hz

Notice now how Siemens are talking about 360km/h for the Velaro now?


----------



## arriaca

^^

I think this is possible now, in Spain can run at 350 km / h


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## elfabyanos

^^ and in China.


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## Momo1435

That's competition....

And the best thing about it is that the AGV prototype is only limited to 300 km/h because it's only 7 cars long and won't have enough brake power for it's maximum speed that can only be achieved when the train is 11 cars long. And until September the maximum speed during the tests will only be 200 km/h on the test ring in Velim. It still has to prove that it can actually reach 360 km/h in reality

Also 2 small pictures of the NTV livery.


----------



## Railfan

*AGV: Testing times ahead​*








02 Sep 2008 | Chris Jackson

*Alstom's AGV demonstrator faces a lengthy programme of testing and approvals before the first trains enter revenue service in 2011. Technical Director François Lacôte talks to Chris Jackson in Velim.*

With construction of the first production trainsets for Italian open-access operator NTV scheduled to get underway before the end of this year, Alstom Transport is pushing ahead with an extensive commissioning and testing programme to get its AGV demonstrator Pégase approved for operation throughout western Europe.

Rolled out at La Rochelle earlier this year (RG 3.08 p146), the seven-car trainset is now racking up the miles around the test ring at Velim in the Czech Republic. Alstom has booked the 13 km main loop exclusively for four months between May and September in order to put the demonstrator through its paces. The train is expected to run almost 60 000 km while it is at Velim.

According to Alstom’s Technical Director François Lacôte, achieving full certification with the European TSIs and approval to operate in different countries is likely to take more than two years. He is not expecting to get final sign-off until the end of 2010, 'if all goes well’.

Nevertheless, during a visit to Velim on June 25 Lacôte said he was pleased with the early results. Based on his experience with TGV development over the past 30 years, he explained that 'despite all the design and simulation that goes on before the actual construction starts, there are still a lot of uncertainties when a new train runs for the first time’. But Pégase was performing as expected — 'our first impressions are good’, he confirmed.
Programme ramps up

The test programme began with a series of static and low-speed trials at La Rochelle before the AGV was dispatched to Velim in mid-May. This included basic mechanical and electrical checks under both 25 kV 50 Hz and 3 kV DC, to ensure that the demonstrator was fit to travel.

Lacôte says one of the main benefits of using Velim is that Alstom does not have to worry about securing paths on an increasingly busy operational network. As the test centre is physically and electrically isolated, the builder is free to test the train’s electro-magnetic compatibility without the risk of any interference from elsewhere.

During the trials the train is being driven by local staff from CD subsidiary VUZ, which operates the Velim test centre. But Alstom has sent its own team of 15 engineers to the Czech Republic to run the tests and analyse the results. Two of the seven vehicles have been fitted out as mobile workstations, backed up by a generator car, another acting as a spare parts store and a fifth providing staff accommodation. Two cars have been fitted with first and second class seating for use by visitors and guests.

For the trials, Pégase has been equipped with more than 2 000 sensors.The first part of the programme is focusing on the AGV’s wheel-rail ?dynamics and the pantograph-catenary interface. Lacôte believes that 'the key to high speed running is to get a bogie that is stable at very high speeds’. He says 'AGV is designed for perfect performance at 360 km/h’, adding that 'this bogie has a safe speed far above that required for commercial service — probably higher than 600 km/h’. He points out that the AGV’s bogies and permanent-magnet motors were comprehensively validated with a series of runs at speeds well over 500 km/h during the V150 high speed test programme last year.

Other tests will check the traction and braking systems, including the wheelslip protection and regenerative braking, and the performance of the traction package on all four supply voltages. An array of lineside microphones will enable Alstom to monitor acoustic performance, and wind tunnel simulations of the aerodynamic drag will also be verified.

Pégase is being run around the ring at steadily increasing speeds, having reached 150 km/h by the end of June. Although the main ring is officially limited to 210 km/h and the test programme only goes up to 200 km/h, Lacôte hopes to be allowed to run ?Pégase up to 240 km/h before the ?trials at Velim conclude.
Germany, France and Italy

Following the four-month programme, Pégase is due to visit Berlin for the InnoTrans trade fair in September. After that it will return to La Rochelle for any rectification or modifications needed as a result of the Velim testing. Towards the end of this year the train is expected to start high-speed testing on LGV Est.

Lacôte says at this stage the train will only run at night, because the lack of certification means that it cannot operate with regular traffic. Nevertheless, he expects to be able to work the demonstrator up to its design speed of 360 km/h during this stage of the testing. Subject to the certification bodies accepting the initial test results, Alstom then expects Pégase to go to Italy for three months of trials starting in March 2009.

With the first of the NTV trains due for delivery in mid-2010, Lacôte expects construction to start towards the end of this year, beginning with long-lead components such as the traction equipment, bogies and bodyshells. Current plans call for 14 of the 11-car sets to be assembled at La Rochelle and the remainder at Savigliano in Italy. Lacôte says this is not to do with having local content, but simply to ensure that all 25 trains can be completed in a relatively tight timescale.

Although the intention is to make AGV a fully interoperable train, able to compete in the liberalised European international passenger market after 2010, Lacôte will not be drawn about other potential customers. At the time of the launch in La Rochelle, Air France CEO Jean-Cyril Spinetta was reported to have expressed interest in the AGV, and the airline recently confirmed that it was in discussions with Veolia Transport about a joint venture to run high speed trains (p489).
Double-deck ambitions

SNCF will be looking to replace its first-generation TGVs in the next decade, but President Guillaume Pepy has insisted growing demand means that future high speed trains are likely to be double-deckers. Alstom is currently delivering the first of 80 second-generation TGV Duplex sets, officially designated RGV-2N2 by SNCF, under a contract which includes an option for a further 40 sets.

Pepy has reportedly expressed interest in a double-deck version of AGV, which Lacôte says would be 'a huge challenge’. Earlier this year he insisted that Alstom would continue to offer two separate high speed train platforms, but now he concedes that 'SNCF is a very important customer — if Guillaume Pepy wants a double-deck AGV we will start working on it’.

He is under no illusions about the difficulties. 'With the TGV Duplex it took a lot of effort to meet the axle-load limits’, even with the aluminium bodyshells. He explains that AGV already has aluminium bodies, but in this case a major contributor to the axleload is the distributed electrical equipment along the articulated trainset. Combining a double-deck body with distributed power 'would be a long haul’, he concludes, adding that in design terms 'we would have to start again’. And although that might be a long term goal, 'our first task is to make this train reliable’.
*'If Guillaume Pepy wants a double-deck AGV, we will start working on it’​*
François Lacôte, Technical Director, Alstom Transport


----------



## amirtaheri

But still, I much prefer the design of ICE3 as an aesthetic item. As a passenger, I would like to get places fast, cheaply and with my ear drums intact 

Truth be told, I do really love the Taiwan High Speed Trainset. That doesn't really appear to have quite as ugly a front end as many of the Japanese trainsets do.


----------



## Tri-ring

amirtaheri said:


> Truth be told, I do really love the Taiwan High Speed Trainset. That doesn't really appear to have quite as ugly a front end as many of the Japanese trainsets do.


Taiwan High Speed Trainsets are the 700 shinkansen series made in Japan.:nuts:


----------



## amirtaheri

Yes, but their nose is shorter and different to that of the 700 series.


----------



## trainrover

I can readily cast its looks aside when reminding myself of the unit harbouring no dedicated locomotive.....mind-blowing enough, that reality of it is to me!


----------



## mr_storms

may be fast and efficient, but its still really ugly. Latest TGV generations look a lot better, not even mentioning others like the Velaro (ICE3).


----------



## Rebasepoiss

^^ It's a matter of taste, I suppose. I love the design of AGV


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## dl3000

I think it looks much better in different liveries. The prototype was ugly and seemed the enhance the lesser aspects of the design.


----------



## Railfan




----------



## Railfan

Innotrans 2008 Berlin
Here are some pictures taken by ionutzyankoo at Innotrans in Berlin.


----------



## Alvar Lavague

*AGV Dynamic Tests*


----------



## AceN

^^ wow, the design is striking cool


----------



## Railfan




----------



## bluemeansgo

Chafford1 said:


> I've read the Japanese will be running the Fastech 360s at 320 km/h (199mph) in commercial service.
> 
> French Railways are looking at 360 km/h (225mph) but have stated that they're not sure whether customers will pay a premium to run trains at this speed.


In addition to the geographical constraints, Japan has to deal with a few more constraints which reduce the top operating speed of their trainsets.

*Geological constraints:* 80% of Japan is mountains. This means there are more tunnels. More tunnels make more tunnel booms... which leads to another constraint:
*Strict Noise Pollution laws:* Japan has the strictest noise pollution laws in the world. This is why their trains are designed to run so quietly and also why tunnel boom is an issue.
*Distance between stations:* This was mentioned earlier on page 7, but apart from the Nozomi run, which makes only one stop between Tokyo and Osaka, distance between stations is 100km - 200km. France has several runs that 200-300km apart which enable the slow-to-accelerate TGVs to get to their top speed. Distance between stations is also why Japanese trainsets focus on acceleration and have the best in the world (I believe).
*Safety:* As you may know, Japan has *Earthquakes.* LOTS OF THEM. I believe they have also *never had a fatality* due to earthquakes on a high speed line. Shinkansen need to be able to stop... and they need to stop QUICKLY. This is part of *the reason Taiwan went with Japanese technology.* There was a massive earthquake in Taiwan and they switched from German tech to Japanese tech which is probably a good idea, given the experience in a similar landscape. Remember that Taiwan was a ruled from Japan for years (as Formosa) and there are still some hard feelings (though NO one there wants to join China) so they must have had a compelling reason to choose the Japanese technology. (Taiwan is the first country to adopt Shinkansen tech, though because they wanted some concessions such as running two ways on a single track, Japan tends to downplay calling Taiwan "Shinkansen")
*Cost:* Simply put it costs more money to run a train at that speed. It's not only the added energy cost, but also the *added wear* and tear on the overhead caternary wires.

You will note that some of these issues are taken care of in the new Mag-lev endeavor in Japan. It goes through a more sparsely populated area over straighter tracks with fewer tunnels than Tokaido. In addition, wear and tear is far less of an issue with Mag-lev.

edit: You probably wouldn't be surprised to know that the AGV is the first French Trainset that I think actually looks good. I really don't know how people liked the boxy TGV. But perhaps it's because I'm also a fan of "most" of the Japanese trainsets, especially the "bullet" version of the FasTech 360Z and the Taiwan 700T series. Love those trains. People tend to call some designs weird or "space-ship like" but that's exactly what I like about them Trains are not means to look like cars. Also, this is a side-point, but it seems that almost all the photos of Japanese trainsets look clean. I wonder if they do more regular washing. I can't remember seeing a dirty Shinkansen. I know it doesn't affect the speed, but it's an interesting cultural aside, anyhow. I know the Japanese are very conscious of image and presentation. Perhaps that has something to do with it?

Note: I'm British, for the record.


----------



## Kuvvaci

wow, it is a giant train.


----------



## Railfan




----------



## Kuvvaci

amazing train...

do the high speed trains and regular trains use the same lines or different lines in France?


----------



## Homem

The same...with different speeds


----------



## Alvar Lavague

They use dedicated high speed lines (LGV in french) : A train cannot run at 300 km/h on a normal line.


----------



## Kuvvaci

Homen said:


> The same...with different speeds



doesn't it harm the rails?

Homen you also follow Turkish railway development, you know our new HSR lines, do you think regular trains (espacially in Thrace to Bulgaria and Greece) will use this line too?


----------



## Kuvvaci

Alvar Lavague said:


> They use dedicated high speed lines (LGV in french) : A train cannot run at 300 km/h on a normal line.



so normal lines are alo suitable for 250 km/h speed?


----------



## Alvar Lavague

I think that speed is limited to 160-200km/h on a conventional line


----------



## mr_storms

K ill admit it does look decent in that red paintjob, sort of like how taiwan HSR's 700s look better than the JRs with the orange lines.


----------



## Kuvvaci

Alvar Lavague said:


> I think that speed is limited to 160-200km/h on a conventional line


how long common rail (both for High Speed and conventional) are there in France?


----------



## Alvar Lavague

According to RFF (Réseau Ferré de France), the French rail network totals 32,888 kilometres of line (out of which 31,986 are in service and 28,918 kilometres are currently in use).

29,203 kilometres are open for commercial use :


 High speed lines (HSL): 1550 km
 Double track or wider: 16,104 km
 Electrified lines: 14,778 km :
At 1500 Volts DC: 5885 km
 At 25,000 Volts AC: 8771 km
 By third rail and others: 122 km


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## JoKo65

Alvar Lavague said:


> I think that speed is limited to 160-200km/h on a conventional line


In France exist conventional lines for 220 km/h, same in Spain. In Germany exist conventional lines for 230 km/h and in Russia for 250 km/h.


----------



## Matthieu

*AGV video*

Here's a video of the AGV:

It's a commercial video but you do see some interesting info on the project.


----------



## Matthieu

Another video of the AGV:
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...mages-du-tgv-du-futur-dalstom-a-360-kmhh.html


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## JoKo65

Nice videos:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=yAVzC6MYBeY&feature=related
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=50OmQVZ1BrQ&feature=related
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=qdOB8J8hk2I&feature=related
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=p8ZCDGivkGQ&feature=related
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=j_w7I_w_aaU&feature=related
6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=w5b1r5rdO_U&feature=related


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## zaphod

way cool

I'm surprised driving something that runs on tracks in the 21st century is so complicated. I figured the trains had a computer and mostly drove themselves, and the engineer was more of a security guard.


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## JoKo65

Next ones – TGV Nord-Europe:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJflakMncl8&feature=channel_page
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fHdOYTjKak&feature=channel
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDD1_yrz-w&feature=channel_page
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EX9K9laln4&feature=channel
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FXqgeY6jQs&feature=channel
6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1-rlHgoXyc&NR=1


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## SeyMan

zaphod said:


> way cool
> 
> I'm surprised driving something that runs on tracks in the 21st century is so complicated. I figured the trains had a computer and mostly drove themselves, and the engineer was more of a security guard.


The film was made in 1995, so it's not the 21st century. And if you compare it with flying a plane is seems extremely easy.


----------



## serdar samanlı1

If the computer drives the train what does the engineer do? Blow the horn or operate the doors?


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## JoKo65

Voyage en cabine TGV Duplex:


----------



## Glodenox

Amazing videos, loved watching them 

Greetings,
Glodenox


----------



## Railfan




----------



## interesting monster

*whoa...*

I. love. that. train.


Any chance we might see it on the NEC? :lol:


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## G5man

interesting monster said:


> I. love. that. train.
> 
> 
> Any chance we might see it on the NEC? :lol:


If you can get the FRA to deregulate and add some dedicated HSR line from Boston-NY and upgrade the overhead to 25 kV constant tension NY-NJ


----------



## interesting monster

G5man said:


> If you can get the FRA to deregulate and add some dedicated HSR line from Boston-NY and upgrade the overhead to 25 kV constant tension NY-NJ


easy as pie...


----------



## Momo1435

It only needs a dedicated 25 kV HSR line outside the cities an, the AGV can easily switch to the current systems in the cities. 

Anyway, the NTV AGVs are in production right now, so hopefully it won't take to long to see the 1st red AGV fresh from the factory.


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## bobke90

What a huge difference with the tgv.


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## Micrav

It is based on biomimmetics of foot and snake at the same time. In both cases, it will bite asses :lol:


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## HSRCanada

Railfan said:


>


I think Americans are working on the AGV. Look at all the duct tape!:nuts:


----------



## Railfan




----------



## Peloso

Railfan said:


> [Italo Alstom train enters Tiburtina station]


Fantastic! This will mark a new era of fake competition on the Italian market! First were the telecom market cartel, the gasoline market cartel, the tv market cartel etc.. Now it's the railway's turn! :applause:
The train itself is nice, don't know about its performances and reliability, hope it does not break down as often as those currently owned by the main operator, last winter it was a nightmare and a ridiculous débacle.


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## bobke90

Peloso said:


> Fantastic! This will mark a new era of fake competition on the Italian market! First were the telecom market cartel, the gasoline market cartel, the tv market cartel etc.. Now it's the railway's turn! :applause:
> The train itself is nice, don't know about its performances and reliability, hope it does not break down as often as those currently owned by the main operator, last winter it was a nightmare and a ridiculous débacle.


Fake competition on the Italian market? Why? What do you mean?


----------



## Peloso

bobke90 said:


> Fake competition on the Italian market? Why? What do you mean?


In Italy, because of a corrupt political class and an entrepreneurial class that's up to par with it, all the prices are inflated and have been so for a long time. I guess you know what a cartel is. The "Prices authority" (an institution whose power is basically nil), in the last 10 years, has time and again fined the major gas distributor firms, and the major telecom operators. Also some of Berlusconi's TV channels have been declared illegal by Italian courts because of "squatting" frequencies belonging to others. But this to no avail, and a monopoly-duopoly in effect exists in the Italian TV market. Since all this happens with the undeclared support of the political parties - all of which are constantly looking for "support" by Confindustria and regularly attend the industrials' meetings, never mind Berlusconi who's one of them - such fines have constantly been of ridiculously low entity. As a result, in Italy today the prices of most commodities are much higher than they should. In particular, telecom and gas prices are the highest in the EC. And railway ticket prices have grown 15 percent in the last 6 months, I believe they got to the highest level in Europe too. Surely the ratio quality of service-price is worst in western Europe, if you ask me.


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## Storm9

When are these trains going to be in service? I will be in France and Italy in July, any chance I can use them?


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## K_

Peloso said:


> In Italy, because of a corrupt political class and an entrepreneurial class that's up to par with it, all the prices are inflated and have been so for a long time.


I don't have the impression that train ticket prices are inflated. Rather the contrary. Now if they'd only "inflate" the cleanliness and punctuality a bit...


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## Peloso

K_ said:


> I don't have the impression that train ticket prices are inflated. Rather the contrary. Now if they'd only "inflate" the cleanliness and punctuality a bit...


Are you Italian? Are you a frequent Trenitalia traveller? How often do you take inter-regional Italian trains? Have you compared prices from two years ago with the current ones? Can you compare the level of the service of ten years ago with today's? Do you have an idea of the cuts in personnel happened in the last ten years? And the cuts in the salaries? Are you informed of the amount of public subsidy to the supposedly privatized Trenitalia? Anyway you don't seem to have read the last two sentences of my post. In short, I believe the new Alstom Italo will be used as the ultimate smoke and mirrors.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Storm9 said:


> When are these trains going to be in service? I will be in France and Italy in July, any chance I can use them?


No, sorry... I think you have to wait 2011/2012


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## GENIUS LOCI

Peloso said:


> Are you Italian? Are you a frequent Trenitalia traveller? How often do you take inter-regional Italian trains? Have you compared prices from two years ago with the current ones? Can you compare the level of the service of ten years ago with today's? Do you have an idea of the cuts in personnel happened in the last ten years? And the cuts in the salaries? Are you informed of the amount of public subsidy to the supposedly privatized Trenitalia? Anyway you don't seem to have read the last two sentences of my post. In short, I believe the new Alstom Italo will be used as the ultimate smoke and mirrors.


I think your vision is a 'bit' pessimistic


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## Peloso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> I think your vision is a 'bit' pessimistic


I don't think you can prove me wrong on any single point I made, anyway your opinion is a _large bit_ biased since you act as a cheerleader of anything Italian-made in every thread and are a contributor of a site on the Milan Expo paid for by local institutions such as the Lombardy region, and by the Italian Ministry of finances, as per your signature.
Like half an hour after my previous post the news came out that the Italian Prices Authority has launched an inquiry on the prices of car insurances in Italy, suspecting the umpteenth cartel has been set up:
http://www.repubblica.it/motori/2010/05/17/news/antitrust_rc_auto-4133345/
So I'm looking forward to the fine they will inflict on the companies... I'm expecting at least 200 euro :lol:


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## Andres_Low

I am not an specialist in the matter....

if this AGV is so good I wonder why SNCF haven´t purchased a single unit yet...

oh! wait, they have! cause NTV Italo is owned by this french company in a 20% stake... 

Now what I wonder why a French public company (feeded with public funds) is able to compete as a private company in Italy, which sadly has its own public company weakened after years of bad management and haven´t been allowed to enter into the french market by SNCF.


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## K_

Andres_Low said:


> I am not an specialist in the matter....
> 
> if this AGV is so good I wonder why SNCF haven´t purchased a single unit yet...


They eventually might. The TGV's SNCF is currently buying are all double deckers, and part of a delivery contract that is older than the AGV.
Once SNCF calls for a Tender again Alsthom will offer the AGV.


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## K_

Peloso said:


> Are you Italian? Are you a frequent Trenitalia traveller? How often do you take inter-regional Italian trains? Have you compared prices from two years ago with the current ones?


I'm not Italian. But I do travel in Italy occasionally. I was there last fall, and I can only tell that a) prices for train tickets did not appear "inflated" to me. And b) service was way below what I expect from a railway. The train I took from Napoli to Siracusa looked as it hadn't been cleaned yet this century. 
Doing better than Trenitalia shouldn't be hard for NTV.


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## GENIUS LOCI

Peloso said:


> I don't think you can prove me wrong on any single point I made


Actually you have to prove it right.
You said there will be a cartel... based on? 
Your personal expectations

Ok, but that IS a pessimistic view. 
Realistic? Maybe: time will tell


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## GENIUS LOCI

K_ said:


> They eventually might. The TGV's SNCF is currently buying are all double deckers, and part of a delivery contract that is older than the AGV.
> Once SNCF calls for a Tender again Alsthom will offer the AGV.


Infact the difference with NTV is that this one has to buy new trains to have its own 'fleet' being a new company, while SNCF has trains and contracts and could buy new AGVs only if they nneed more trains or have to replace the old ones.
For istance even Trenitalia wants to replace its ETR500 trains they haven't decided yet, and they don't need to hurry up as NTV as they got HS trains


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## Peloso

GENIUS LOCI said:


> Actually you have to prove it right.
> You said there will be a cartel... based on?
> Your personal expectations
> 
> Ok, but that IS a pessimistic view.
> Realistic? Maybe: time will tell


Forumers are not in Italy, so I can dupe them into thinking the market in Italy is like everywhere else. Yes I am very smart. A GENIUS indeed (all capitals). If you haven't read a newspaper in the last 10 years then I can excuse not knowing all of Italy is a cartel. Besides, proof of what I said can be easily found by anyone using the italian keywords "pendolari protesta" (i.e. commuters protest (for the pitiful condition of local trains)), "aiuti stato Trenitalia" (state subsidy Trenitalia) "sicurezza problemi Trenitalia" (safety etc.) "zecche trenitalia" (ticks in Trenitalia trains) "tagli personale Trenitalia" (cuts in Trenitalia personnel). These are things that any, and I mean any, Trenitalia customer knows very well. There have been countless features on these topics on every magazine, TV specials have been made... as for the cartels, EU authority has pointed out the abnormally high prices in the Italian telecom market, gas companies have been fined multiple times etc.. BTW, I'm starting to think the (Ministry funded) GENIUS's posts have a triggering effect, two hours after his previous post this piece of news came out about a new Antitrust inquiry against Telecom Italy:
http://www.repubblica.it/economia/2...telecom_ha_ostacolato_la_concorrenza-4164092/
Back on topic: why I believe the new Alstom Italo will be used as smoke and mirrors? First and foremost, because NTV, the buyer of the train, is bound to use the existing railway network, owned by RFI - Rete Ferroviaria Italiana SPA - that is, a joint stock company that was separated from Ferrovie dello Stato SPA, formerly the sole keeper of the lines *and* trains, nine years ago, along with Trenitalia (now the operator of the trains). Both companies are 100 percent owned by Ferrovie dello Stato SPA (I know, it's funny but then it's Italy). Less than two years ago, guess what, the Authority for the market competition already launched an inquiry against Trenitalia pointing to a "special relationship" between Trenitalia and RFI, and both of the companies had to provide proof of their "future commitment" to avoid suspect behaviors in the future, so as to avoid sanctions:
http://www.agcm.it/agcm_ITA/RELAZ/R...a00e5ca02f2dfabfc12575d60035f8af?OpenDocument
So there is the serious risk (being in Italy, this is a certainty) that the new operator NTV will have to behave in an "amicable" way to be able to operate smoothly on the Italian network (on a side note, something very similar has happened with Telecom landlines since their supposed opening to new operators, Telecom was repeatedly accused by the Authority of illegally putting obstacles but no serious sanction was inflicted on it).
Add to this that the owner of NTV is not an unknown maverick, he's Luca di Montezemolo, former Italian Industrial Confederation president, one who enjoys special relationships not only in the industrial world, but in the political arena as well, rumoured to be the next candidate for prime minister, where he's sure to get the support of a good share of the chambers. The government is who appoints RFI administrator. Is there anyone willing to claim there will be "competition" on the railway market who's not somehow affiliated with the powers that be? I don't think so.


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## chicagoboulder

I don't like it, the current TGV looks very 'french', and the new AGV doesn't, it looks cheap, and I don't think it would be a good design for french railways, since they always seem to be aesthetically pleasing, even to an American. Personally, the Siemens Velaro looks better than the AGV, but the Velaro doesn't look that bad.


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## joseph1951

Peloso said:


> Forumers are not in Italy, so I can dupe them into thinking the market in Italy is like everywhere else. Yes I am very smart..............


Dear Peloso,
It is true to say that RFI and TI are the two sides of the same coin. But the same happens in France with RFF and Sncfs , in Germany with.... etc.
Furthermore NTV is also partly owned by SCNF ..
So there will be a Paneuropean cartel .. and not a true market competition.... whatever that means.


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## LUCAFUSAR

^^At least in some nations (e.g. Germany and Switzerland) there is a proper railway service...


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## Ariel74

Here is a question for those who love the new AGV: why does it have to have in the front car so many small pieces that seem to be removable or able to be opened? The overall design is ugly to my eyes, but I suppose one can always attribute that to personal tastes. But the fragmented wrapping of the AGV not only makes it look cheap, it is also against the principle that, in engineering, you want to have as few moving parts as possible. Look at Japans N700 series or Siemens' Velaro for example. The contrast is like between the uni-body Macbook pro (Velaro/N700) and a cheap PC (AGV).


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## K_

Ariel74 said:


> Here is a question for those who love the new AGV: why does it have to have in the front car so many small pieces that seem to be removable or able to be opened? The overall design is ugly to my eyes, but I suppose one can always attribute that to personal tastes. But the fragmented wrapping of the AGV not only makes it look cheap, it is also against the principle that, in engineering, you want to have as few moving parts as possible. Look at Japans N700 series or Siemens' Velaro for example. The contrast is like between the uni-body Macbook pro (Velaro/N700) and a cheap PC (AGV).


The comparison between the unibody Macbook and a cheap laptop is interesting. Try replacing the battery in a Macbook  Maybe you'll understand that having some parts easily accessible behind hatches is not so bad an idea... Definitely not necessarily bad engineering.
Don't be fooled by the duct tape on the prototype pictured in this thread though.
I know that on the TGV/AGV at least on opening panel gives access to the lever that extends the automatic coupling. For some reason SNCF wants it to be possible to do this from outside of the cabin. 

Ofcourse the macbook/pc comparison does still hold. The ICE was after all designed by a renowed designer. And it does look very good.


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## Matthieu

Ariel74 said:


> But the fragmented wrapping of the AGV not only makes it look cheap, it is also against the principle that, in engineering, you want to have as few moving parts as possible.


Huh? That's an engineering principle?


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## Alvar Lavague

K_ said:


> Ofcourse the macbook/pc comparison does still hold. The ICE was after all designed by a renowed designer. And it does look very good.


I don't get this comparison. Is the Mac designer a famous one? (Anyway, that doesn't mean that a product designed by a famous designer will necessarily look good and vice versa.) Or do you mean that the Agv looks bad while the Velaro looks good?...


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## Andres_Low

^^
Renowed designers usually do a pretty good job otherwise wouldn´t be renowed. I believe there must be a better way to solve the problem of the access without looking like a gym lockers room.


You know what? Actually, there is one exception... the AnsaldoBreda V250 which is a proof that Pininfarina studio is very good in car design so they should stick to it. only.


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## Alvar Lavague

I agree with you : in general terms, a renowned designer is a good one but that doesn't mean that his/her design will be necesarily better than an unknown designer's one. Not only one can be a good designer and unknown but also one has to be unknown before to be renowned.


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## Ariel74

Andres_Low said:


> ^^
> Renowed designers usually do a pretty good job otherwise wouldn´t be renowed. I believe there must be a better way to solve the problem of the access without looking like a _*gym lockers room*_.


That's a pretty good description of my impression of the AGV


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## Maxx☢Power

Alvar Lavague said:


> I don't get this comparison. Is the Mac designer a famous one? (Anyway, that doesn't mean that a product designed by a famous designer will necessarily look good and vice versa.) Or do you mean that the Agv looks bad while the Velaro looks good?...


He is pretty famous, precisely for designing most of Apple's products. But I think the point is a Mac _is_ designed, as opposed to most PCs that are just cobbled together without any regard for what the end result looks like. It looks to me like the AGV actually was designed like that for not just practical, but also aesthetic purposes, so I guess taste is a very subjective thing. It's definitely not my favourite in terms of looks. The original TGV, on the other hand, is a classic.

Edit: I've just looked at the pictures again, and I agree the access panels look cheap and plasticy. Pretty much like a cheap PC, so I agree with the comparison.


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## Railfan

26 de mayo de 2010

*Finito di costruire, presso lo stabilimento di La Rochelle in Francia, il primo dei 25 treni Italo.*

*Inizio servizio Settembre 2011.
*


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## Railfan

*NTV readies for Italo high speed launch*









25 May 2010

ITALY: *Open access high speed operator NTV confirmed on May 25 that it is on track to launch commercial services in September 2011, having reached agreement with infrastructure manager RFI for paths linking 12 stations in nine principal cities.*

NTV Chairman Luca di Montezemolo announced that the first of its 25 AGV trainsets had been completed at Alstom's plant in La Rochelle on May 10. Following initial testing it is due to be delivered to Italy in October for final acceptance. The first four sets will come from France, and the first Italian-built unit is expected to roll out of the Savigliano plant near Torino in early 2011. The articulated trainsets are 200 m long and formed of 11 vehicles.

NTV expects to operate 51 trains/day from September 2010, linking Torino (Porta Susa), Milano (Porta Garibaldi and Rogoredo), Bologna (Central), Firenze (SMN), Roma (Tiburtina and Ostiense), Napoli (Centrale), Salerno (Centrale), Venezia (Santa Lucia and Mestre) and Padova (Centrale). This will amount to 12·3 million train-km per year. NTV will have its own 'Casa Italo' service centre in each station, providing information and ticket sales.

NTV CEO Giuseppe Sciarrone said the project involved 'putting a great many things together: construction and testing of the trains, the construction of the maintenance system, the marketing strategies, the setting up of the computer systems, and personnel selection and training', but added that everything was 'going ahead according to schedule' to meet the committed launch next September.

The first phase of work on NTV's main rolling stock depot at Nola Campano Interport in Campania has been completed, with the construction of eight buildings. Total cost of the dedicated fleet maintenance facility is put at €90m.

NTV has also launched a recruitment programme to find around 850 staff for the trains and service centres, of which 90% are reserved for people under 35. The company is allocating €17·5m to fund a training school, with an initial focus on drivers and maintenance engineers.


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## makita09

I've just noticed the curve of the body from the nose around the first bogie looks like the line of a bow wave on a boat. I wonder if this corresponds to the bow wave in the air at around it's top speed?


----------



## SamuraiBlue

makita09 said:


> I've just noticed the curve of the body from the nose around the first bogie looks like the line of a bow wave on a boat. I wonder if this corresponds to the bow wave in the air at around it's top speed?


To my understanding, Alstrom decided to keep the boogies open since debris can be caught between the boogie and cover making it hard to remove. 
The curvature on the front is for aesthetic purpose nothing more.


----------



## Shezan

the new NTV AGV is really awesome


----------



## Andres_Low

Railfan said:


> *NTV readies for Italo high speed launch*
> 
> The first phase of work on NTV's main rolling stock depot at Nola Campano Interport in Campania has been completed, with the construction of eight buildings. Total cost of the dedicated fleet maintenance facility is put at €90m.
> 
> NTV has also launched a recruitment programme to find around 850 staff for the trains and service centres, of which 90% are reserved for people under 35. The company is allocating €17·5m to fund a training school, with an initial focus on drivers and maintenance engineers.[/SIZE]


The manteinance is not included in the purchase contract? good luck guys


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## Railfan

Andres_Low said:


> The manteinance is not included in the purchase contract? good luck guys


Yes by 30 years


----------



## Maarten Otto

You might give a monkey a golden ring,
But it will remain to be an ugly thing.

Or,

You can putt lipstick on a pig,
Tis still pig.


----------



## trainrover

Railfan said:


>


it haulers muscle :drool:


----------



## Railfan




----------



## Hubert Pollak

437.001 said:


> -2 Barcelona-Paris Gare de Lyon
> -1 Madrid-Barcelona-Paris Gare de Lyon
> -1 Madrid-Barcelona-Marseille
> -1 Barcelona-Marseille
> -1 Barcelona-Lyon Part Dieu
> -1 Madrid-Barcelona-Genève
> -1 Barcelona-Lille
> -1 Barcelona-Toulouse-Bordeaux


Where the hell is Barcelona - Nice TGV. It could be popular specially in summertime.

Anyway scheme is great.


----------



## K_

Hubert Pollak said:


> Where the hell is Barcelona - Nice TGV. It could be popular specially in summertime.


There are two trains Barcelona - Marseilles planned, where you can change for Nice (or any other place on the Cote d'Azur). And since most trains will call at Montpelier, this gives a lot more options even.


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> There are two trains Barcelona - Marseilles planned, where you can change for Nice (or any other place on the Cote d'Azur). And since most trains will call at Montpelier, this gives a lot more options even.


There aren´t many Montpellier-Nice trains.

I guess there aren´t any Barcelona-Nice TGVs because the Marseilles-Nice line is bordering saturation.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> There aren´t many Montpellier-Nice trains.
> 
> I guess there aren´t any Barcelona-Nice TGVs because the Marseilles-Nice line is bordering saturation.


Currently the Marseilles - Nice line has "fast" paths leaving Marseille at 01 and 31. Some are used for TGV services, others for TEOZ services and others for TER Intercités. But some are not used.
So SNCF could replace a TEOZ or Intercité service with a TGV from Barcelona, or use an unused slot, and so increasing travel options on Marseilles - Nice.


----------



## parcdesprinces

437.001 said:


> There aren´t many Montpellier-Nice trains.
> .


Actually if I remember well there are 3 Toulouse-Nice _Intercités_ (formerly Téoz) trains per day (2 of them are from Bordeaux), even more during summer and of course they serve Montpellier and Marseille. Which is not that bad IMHO. 
I took this line several times, and it's horrible BTW because it takes 7-8 hours from Toulouse to Nice, that's why now I do this journey by Plane which takes only 1H30 and the ticket price is approx. the same as by Train (there are 2 flights per day from Toulouse to Nice and 3 flights per day during weekends)


----------



## K_

parcdesprinces said:


> Actually if I remember well there are 3 Toulouse-Nice _Intercités_ (formerly Téoz) trains per day (2 of them are from Bordeaux), even more during summer and of course they serve Montpellier and Marseille. Which is not that bad IMHO.
> I took this line several times, and it's horrible BTW because it takes 7-8 hours from Toulouse to Nice, that's why now I do this journey by Plane which takes only 1H30 and the ticket price is approx. the same as by Train (there are 2 flights per day from Toulouse to Nice and 3 flights per day during weekends)


"Horrible" is of course relative. However, SNCF could make those trips more convenient and pleasant.
Traveling long distance in Germany for example you in most cases have a train every hour, and all long distance trains have on board catering. I vastly prefer 7 hours on an ICE over 1 hour in a plance. But that is personal of course...
BTW, you can't get from Toulouse to Nice in 1h30m by plane. To make a fair comparison you need to factor in the extra time needed for check in, transfer to airport etc...


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> BTW, you can't get from Toulouse to Nice in 1h30m by plane. To make a fair comparison you need to factor in the extra time needed for check in, transfer to airport etc...


Most people are not travelling from station to station either. You need to account for time it takes to get to and from origin and destination train stations. Albeit usually shorter than the time it takes to clear check-in and security in an airport, it is common that people need up to one extra at each city to get from doorstep to doorstep


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Most people are not travelling from station to station either. You need to account for time it takes to get to and from origin and destination train stations. Albeit usually shorter than the time it takes to clear check-in and security in an airport, it is common that people need up to one extra at each city to get from doorstep to doorstep


In deed. Door to door is what counts. That is why having a good integration of the schedules of different lines is so important. More important than going as fast as possible. SNCF is starting to get this. It appears you are too


----------



## Gadiri

> *Refurbished TGV PSE trains as good as new​
> 24 February 2012 *
> 
> 
> *FRANCE: The first of 60 refurbished TGV PSE trainsets is expected to re-enter service on LGV Rhin-Rhône during March, following overhaul at the Hellemmes Technicentre near Lille.*
> 
> The refurbishment has been *styled by a partnership of seating specialist Compin and creative agency RCP Design Global*. Adopting 'a cognitive and sensory approach', the designers put particular focus on lighting, which has been updated to 'enlarge and structure' the saloon. The main lighting is described as 'softer and more functional', with 'task lighting' used to pinpoint certain facets of the interior 'closer to the hand and the eye'.
> 
> RCP enlisted the help of visual designer Christel Berthou-Brosse to implement a signage policy through material and colour choice to 'ensure the traveller knows where he is at any time during the journey'.
> 
> Other renovated spaces included the toilets, which have been remodelled with materials chosen to provide 'a domestic dimension', which contributes to 'a perception of cleanliness'.
> 
> The bar area has also been extensively revised, with an open plan layout minimising separation between the passenger and service staff. The designers hope that passengers will be encouraged to use the space even when no bar service is being provided.
> 
> The refurbishment is intended 'to perpetuate the desire to travel by TGV', according to RCP. Trainset SE15 underwent testing in mid-February before re-entering traffic. The TGV PSE sets are now more than 30 years old.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...efurbished-tgv-pse-trains-as-good-as-new.html


----------



## Busfotodotnl

NATIONAL train company SNCF is taking a leaf out of the low-cost airline's book and is set to offer budget TGV travel next year. 

Radio station RTL said this morning the rail firm will offer a ticket for under €25 to destinations including Lyon, Marseille and Montpellier - however, services will not start in the centre of Paris, but in Marne-la-Vallée, a town east of the capital, in Seine-et-Marne. 

Passengers will get no frills on the stripped-down four-car trains - apart from a high-speed journey - as there will be no first-class or buffet car. 

They will also be restricted to one piece of luggage as the trains are to be optimised to carry the maximum number of passengers. 

Ticket prices are cheaper than the low-cost Prem's fares available and they will be the same price for all seats. They will be non-refundable. 

An SNCF spokesman confirmed the plan but refused to comment further. Company chief executive Guillaume Pépy revealed in December that the company was looking at low-cost operations. 

However, SNCF will likely release more information in the coming weeks as it bids to stay ahead of the competition. New rival Thello - a joint project between Veolia and Italian train firm Trenitalia - is already running a service between Paris and Turin and will offer more services as competition laws ease.


----------



## Coccodrillo

> Passengers will get no frills on the stripped-down four-car trains - apart from a high-speed journey - as there will be no first-class or buffet car.


They will use refurbished TGV Duplex, with two locomotives and 8 coaches (today 3 first class, one restaurant, and 4 second class, to be converted into 8 standard class coaches maybe with more seats per car). A total of 4 sets may be converted, to be used in pairs.


----------



## hans280

K_ said:


> I don't say all trains should stop in all stations. I am just saying that having a two tier service where some trains go non stop, and some trains make all stops makes more sense than having all trains make some stops...
> 
> Train running time might be increased for the "locals", but the number of services offered daily would increase substantially, which has value too. SNCF is forgoing an opportunity here to tap new markets (and make more money...)


Well, it is true that the French HS-network is as monocentric (or Paris-centric... ) as an average German S-Bahn. Those TGVs connecting Paris to Marseille and which stop in Valences, Avignon or Aix even have a rule (to save time, apparently) that passengers are allowed to leave, but not board, the train. Last week I travelled on the TGV from Paris to Frankfurt and some of the French passengers next to me almost threw a fit when they saw some German travellers using "their TGV" to travel from Saarbruecken to Mannheim.


----------



## Suburbanist

hans280 said:


> Well, it is true that the French HS-network is as monocentric (or Paris-centric... ) as an average German S-Bahn. Those TGVs connecting Paris to Marseille and which stop in Valences, Avignon or Aix even have a rule (to save time, apparently) that passengers are allowed to leave, but not board, the train. Last week I travelled on the TGV from Paris to Frankfurt and some of the French passengers next to me almost threw a fit when they saw some German travellers using "their TGV" to travel from Saarbruecken to Mannheim.


If the trains are all fully-reserved, then it wouldn't be a problem, it the number of passengers using them for such relations is not that high.

Much more problematic is to have high-speed trains that double as local/regional services as it happens in ICEs going to Netherlands or Switzerland, where people can use them without reservation.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> If the trains are all fully-reserved, then it wouldn't be a problem, it the number of passengers using them for such relations is not that high.
> 
> Much more problematic is to have high-speed trains that double as local/regional services as it happens in ICEs going to Netherlands or Switzerland, where people can use them without reservation.


That is not a big problem. Only when a train would get overcrowded it might become an issue, but that can be fixed too... You can board TGVs without reservation in France too.


----------



## sekelsenmat

Busfotodotnl said:


> NATIONAL train company SNCF is taking a leaf out of the low-cost airline's book and is set to offer budget TGV travel next year.


This is great news for people wanting to travel by rail, but on a budget $$. France's TGV is exorbitatingly expensive for many people at the current prices


----------



## Suburbanist

sekelsenmat said:


> This is great news for people wanting to travel by rail, but on a budget $$. France's TGV is exorbitatingly expensive for many people at the current prices


Only if you look as last-minute prices.

Advanced-purchased TGV tickets are in line with similar tickets from Germany and Italy and are less expensive than the usual cheapest advance tickets from Spain.

It will also be not the first low-cost initiative. SNCF already has the iTGV, which is low-cost as well.

In any case, the French network is quite suitable for these services: direct TGV lines allowing very fast services without intermediate stops and without having to deal with integrated local/regional tickets.


----------



## alserrod

It wasn't high speed one century ago but long tunnel...



First French tunnel that crossed the Canfranc tunnel (more than 8 km) on July 18th, 1928.

At Canfranc it had the welcome by French President Mr. Gaston de Doumergue and Spanish King Alfonso XIII


----------



## K_

alserrod said:


> It wasn't high speed one century ago but long tunnel...
> 
> 
> 
> First French tunnel that crossed the Canfranc tunnel (more than 8 km) on July 18th, 1928.
> 
> At Canfranc it had the welcome by French President Mr. Gaston de Doumergue and Spanish King Alfonso XIII


Any news when Canfranc will be again connected to the French rail network?


----------



## alserrod

No.

Oloron-Urdos has plans to be open again... but since Urdos until the tunnel there is few population and a very complicate line. It worths only for international connections.

It is possible to shuttle in SNCF buses from Oloron to Canfranc.

Furthermore... if France start with a complete works until the tunnel they will ask Spanish ministry to change line gauge, catenary and some works to minimize points where trains have to reduce speed. And being a so long line since Huesca, it could be as important as French works!!

There is to much History in that station that can be told... and today only receives two daily trains.

For a time it was the longest station in Spain. It is narrow and long... and it was the longest in the middle of Pyrenees.


----------



## metrofreak

from http://www.fastcoexist.com/1680169/watch-an-actual-functioning-high-speed-rail-network

"Watch An Actual Functioning High Speed Rail Network
These videos, made with data from France’s rail network, show what a country that relies on and invests in passenger rail looks like."


----------



## mcarling

Am I the only person surprised that Francois Hollande has not yet announced a new LGV line to begin construction during his term? I've been expecting announcement of a new line, not only as a jobs programme, but to break with the plans of the previous administration. For example, I would not be surprised to see Hollande drop the Poitiers - Limoges idea in favour of Paris - Orleans - Limoges.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## 437.001

mcarling said:


> Am I the only person surprised that Francois Hollande has not yet announced a new LGV line to begin construction during his term? I've been expecting announcement of a new line, not only as a jobs programme, but to break with the plans of the previous administration. For example, I would not be surprised to see Hollande drop the Poitiers - Limoges idea in favour of Paris - Orleans - Limoges.


I´m not surprised at all. Especially when you know they´ve just opened a new HSL (Rhin-Rhône), three more are under construction (Baudrecourt-Strasbourg on the HSL Est-Européenne, Tours-Bordeaux on the HSL Sud-Europe-Atylantique, and Le Mans-Rennes and its spur to Sablé-sur-Sarthe on the HSL Bretagne-Pays de la Loire), and one more will be started as soon as possible (Nîmes-Montpellier on the HSL Languedoc).

That´s quite a Spanish-like schedule, and the costs of a HSL in France are much more expensive than in Spain. And no European economy can cope with much more than this right now, the way economy is going.


----------



## trainrover

just love the thorough explanation through the mighty shake, rattle and roll ​


----------



## TGV

*Request for (datalogger) speed graphs of TGV journeys, especially on LGV Est!*

Merci d’avance pour votre cooperation!

This because the TGV theoretical is not able the maintain 300km/h on a 3,5% slope:

_I posted this before in the wrong French railway thread... sorry_

I calculate the total resistance force at 320km/h on a 3,5% slope of, for example, a TGV POS (A*cw=9m2; mass=390t; Pmax=9,6MW; Rolling resistance coefficient‎ =0,0003) than the total resistance force = 179kN. The force which the engine generates at 320km/h equals about 108kN. This is a difference of 160%. Simple conclusion: the train can’t maintain 320km/h on the 3,5% slope.

But on the LGV-Est the maximum gradient is 3,5% and if I see the YouTube video I get the impression that they run 320km/h the whole length of the LGV Est.

But I think that’s theoretical impossible. If the kinetic energy (Ek= ½ mv2) at the start of the slope is converted to potential energy (Ep) on the slope than the altitude of the train increases (Ep=mgh). But, like in a rollercoaster, the speed of the train decreases when the altitude increases. Also the resistance forces will slow down the train meanwhile the force of the engine will speed up the train. If these forces are multiplied with de distance travelled (x) they are converted to work (W=F*x). The potential energy between v0 (at the start of the slope) and v0 (at distance x on the slope) can be calculated with (where Wr=Work of resistance forces and We=Work of engine force):

Ekv0 – Ekv1 – Wr + We = Ep with Ep=m*g*sin(slope)*x

Rewrite to calculate the speed v1 after travelled distance x on the slope:

v1= √(2*(Ekv0 – Wr +We – Ep)/m)

I used this gradient graph to determine the slope and the length of the slope on the LGV Est between PK210-240 and put this data in excel to plot this graph:










For the green and purple Strasbourg-Paris TGVs a negative slope = uphill and a positive slope=downhill. This because they are travelling in opposite direction.

The purple V150 graph is to check my calculations with the recored speed of the record run as a reference. Although my calculations are very rough the speed drop at PK225 is visible in both graphs.

The graph shows a speed drop to 300km/h near the Meuse TGV station.


----------



## Sunfuns

This thread is kind of empty...

I've just read that the second bore of Saverne tunnel on LGV Est 2nd phase has been holed through few days ago. I wasn't aware that the works have progressed that far already. The line is scheduled for opening in spring 2016. 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/.../saverne-tunnel-holed-through-on-lgv-est.html

Anyone knows about the latest progress on Tours-Boredeaux line?


----------



## Suburbanist

*SNCF unveils Ouigo low-cost TGV service*

From Railway Gazette 



> SNCF President Guillaume Pepy and Director of the long-distance passenger business Barbara Dalibard unveiled details of the national operator's *'Ouigo' branded low-cost TGV service* on February 19.
> 
> From April 2 *Ouigo services will run from Marne-la-Vallée Chessy station on the eastern outskirts of Paris to Marseille and Montpellier.* There will be three return services a day and four on Sundays.
> 
> *Tickets can only be booked on line, with fares for the single class priced according to demand and ranging from €10 to €85*. Children accompanied by an adult pay a flat fare of €5 and SNCF says that 25% of the seats will be sold at less than €25.
> 
> *Four double-deck TGV Duplex sets have been refurbished* at SNCF's Bischheim workshops* to operate Ouigo services, operating in pairs to offer a total of 1.268 seats or 20% more than a standard formation*. No catering facilities are provided and the bar area has been replaced with additional luggage space. Each Ouigo passenger is entitled to take one piece of baggage free of charge, up to two extra items being charged at €5 or €10 each.
> 
> To enable tickets to be checked before boarding, *passengers are required to arrive at the station at least 30 min before departure. *SNCF says at least four on-train personnel will be present during the journey.
> 
> 'The challenge that we have wanted to meet is to reduce our operating costs by 30%', said Dalibard. According to Pepy, 'with unbeatable value for money and more choice for everyone, SNCF has created the model for hyper-accessible high-speed travel'.


I'm quite excited for this new offer. High-speed rail can be offered at lower costs without full crews and bar/restaurant cars, which coupled with pre-check of tickets allow slashing the size of crews.

OuiGo routes









OuGo livery









OuiGo 1+3 car









OuiGo 2+2 car


----------



## mcarling

Required presence 30 minutes before departure is nuts. It effectively adds 30 minutes to the total trip time.


----------



## K_

mcarling said:


> Required presence 30 minutes before departure is nuts. It effectively adds 30 minutes to the total trip time.


And if you add the time needed to get to Marne La Vallee...

You might end up being better of taking a TER...


----------



## Sunfuns

K_ said:


> And if you add the time needed to get to Marne La Vallee...
> 
> You might end up being better of taking a TER...


This assumes that getting to the station in the center of Paris takes less time. Not necessarily true for those living in the suburbs.


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> This assumes that getting to the station in the center of Paris takes less time. Not necessarily true for those living in the suburbs.


exactly! Many people ignore this fact - that people don't necessarily live near stations, and that access time to HS central stations can be quite large for people living in the outskirts of major metro areas.


----------



## Suburbanist

*RFF charges*

HEre I post some graphs by G. Huges blog on RFF charges

*Path reservation fee (baseline)*








2013/2014 data
.

*Circulation fee (baseline)*









there are several coefficient adjustments, but those are the baseline fares


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> exactly! Many people ignore this fact -


People who know a thing or two about how transportation networks work don't ignore that people don't all live near major terminals. They are in fact acutely aware of it. 
That is why they keep repeating that what matters is not so much speed, but how well the whole system is integrated, as people base their transportation choice decisions based on door to door times, not terminal to terminal times. 
The person on this forum that seems to be least aware of this fact seems to be you...



> that people don't necessarily live near stations, and that access time to HS central stations can be quite large for people living in the outskirts of major metro areas.


I'm sure a lot more people live within 1 hour travel of Paris GDL than within 1/2 hour of Marne La Vallée...


----------



## MarcVD

Sunfuns said:


> This assumes that getting to the station in the center of Paris takes less time. Not necessarily true for those living in the suburbs.


For those who live in the immediate vicinity of Marne la Vallée, it will be easier.
But for those living in all other Paris suburbs, it will mean a first leg to Paris centre, 
and then another leg to Marne la Vallée, as direct suburb to suburb connections are
almost inexistant.

So in total a better situation for 20% of the potential travellers, and far 
worse for the other 80%.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I think they are aiming mostly at people who will park-and-ride.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> For those who live in the immediate vicinity of Marne la Vallée, it will be easier.
> But for those living in all other Paris suburbs, it will mean a first leg to Paris centre,
> and then another leg to Marne la Vallée, as direct suburb to suburb connections are
> almost inexistant.
> 
> So in total a better situation for 20% of the potential travellers, and far
> worse for the other 80%.


It's even worse. From Marne La Vallée to GDL is 35 minutes by train. Which means that someone actually living on the doorstep of the station would hardly be slower taking a regular TGV from GDL than a OUIGO...


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I think they are aiming mostly at people who will park-and-ride.


I suppose if you have a car you can't afford a normal TGV anyway...


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> I suppose if you have a car you can't afford a normal TGV anyway...


Many people might consider travelling on high-speed train that resembles an air-travel experience (insulated, safe etc.) but not necessarily would consider taking a crappy subway with many stations without escalators/lifts just to get to Gare d Lyon.


----------



## Sunfuns

Honestly, I don't see where the problem lies. Why not experiment and see if there is enough business for such a service? If there isn't it could always be witdrawn later or re-directed to GDL. It could very well be that decreased convenience is more than outweighed by low prices. 

Low cost airlines often have crappy service and fly to secondary airports, but they are cheap and doing better business than most standard careers.


----------



## Suburbanist

Sunfuns said:


> Honestly, I don't see where the problem lies. Why not experiment and see if there is enough business for such a service? If there isn't it could always be witdrawn later or re-directed to GDL. It could very well be that decreased convenience is more than outweighed by low prices.


I agree.

K_, however, things connectivity is everything, as long as somebody from a hamlet in the Siwss Alps can use 7 trains and 2 cable cars and 1 tram to travel to a hilltop walled town in Spain, he's all good with low speeds and outdated rolling stock, as long as the schedules are based on a clock-face dictatorship.


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## 437.001

*Official news*: Frédéric Cuvillier has confirmed on the radio that April the 28th is the date the direct TGV services Barcelona-Paris and vv. will start running. Two per day, three on weekends.
Also two AVE Barcelona-Toulouse and vv. per day.


----------



## JumpUp

Heeeey,

A simular question like I just asked in the "Spain, HSR" thread - this time it's for France:

I am curious about month/year tickets for commuters on the TGV. I know that there is something called the "abo forfait", as a matter of fact I didn't find out how it really works or what's the price for it. Do I only need to pay the reservation with abo forfait and can use as much journeys as I like to do on the TGV? Are there prices to be found online?

However, is there something like a year ticket for ALL of SNCF network? Like there is the Bahncard 100 in Germany or the Swiss Generalabo? As far as I know, nothing like this excists in France, but I am not sure.

Thanks for your information and help


----------



## Nexis

Now that the OUIGO service has been out a few weeks , is ridership doing well or has it flopped?


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## Coccodrillo

The Ouigo service started yesterday Monday April 2nd, it's just the tickets that are being sold since some time.

(has it been said that "ouigo" is the French way to write the English sound for "we go"?)


----------



## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> (has it been said that "ouigo" is the French way to write the English sound for "we go"?)


Yes. though "go" in French has a different sound as the "o" is short, am I right?


----------



## Think

^^Yes.


----------



## Cuthbert 80

Hi guys. Sorry, but TGV trains are sexy and I just wanted to share some pics I took recently at Paris Est station.


----------



## AlexNL

Nexis said:


> Now that the OUIGO service has been out a few weeks , is ridership doing well or has it flopped?


According to International Rail Journal, so far SNCF has sold over 200,000 tickets for Ouigo. So I would say: yes.


----------



## JumpUp

Hey,

I have read that the old TGV Sud -est trains are going to be taken out of service in the next years.

Are all of the 109 Sud-est Trains still in use? How many Are already taken out of service? When were the first trains taken out of service? And how long are they still running?

Same question for the TGV Atlantique, are all of them still in use?


----------



## Coccodrillo

The multisystem PSE sets (Paris Sud-Est) for France-Switzerland traffic are already out of service.


----------



## MarcVD

JumpUp said:


> Hey,
> 
> I have read that the old TGV Sud -est trains are going to be taken out of service in the next years.
> 
> Are all of the 109 Sud-est Trains still in use? How many Are already taken out of service? When were the first trains taken out of service? And how long are they still running?
> 
> Same question for the TGV Atlantique, are all of them still in use?


Most of the first generation TGVs (TGV-PSE, for Paris-Sud-Est) are still in 
service, having undergone various refurbishment programs. Now it is 
considered to re-use them as intercity trains on the non high speed lines as
replacement for loco-hauled Corail rakes. No final decision taken yet, but
in any case, it won't be before several years.

All TGV Atlantique sets are still in service too.


----------



## M-NL

With a few modifications they could be used by NS HiSpeed and NMBS for the Fyra service...


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> With a few modifications they could be used by NS HiSpeed and NMBS for the Fyra service...


I doubt they can be easily adapted to run under 3000V DC...


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> I doubt they can be easily adapted to run under 3000V DC...


I was going to say that... Adapting from 3000 to 1500 is easy, but definitely 
not the other way around. Just think about the whole HT electrical insulation
which needs to be redone from scratch...


----------



## M-NL

Now I thought about that, but one thing triggered me to think it may be easier than we think: The power rating of a TGV-PSE is 3100 kW @ 1.5kV and 6800 kW @ 25kV. 

These trains still have DC traction motors. The way it works is the same as with the BB22200 locomotives: Pantograph=>Transformer=>Rectifier=>Chopper=>Motor. If you run on DC the Transformer (and possibly the rectifier) are left out.
Because of the big difference in power ratings on the 2 voltages that leads me to believe that the traction motors run on a lower voltage while on 1.5 kV, probably even a factor of 2. That could mean the motor could handle 3 kV.


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> Now I thought about that, but one thing triggered me to think it may be easier than we think: The power rating of a TGV-PSE is 3100 kW @ 1.5kV and 6800 kW @ 25kV.
> 
> These trains still have DC traction motors. The way it works is the same as with the BB22200 locomotives: Pantograph=>Transformer=>Rectifier=>Chopper=>Motor. If you run on DC the Transformer (and possibly the rectifier) are left out.
> Because of the big difference in power ratings on the 2 voltages that leads me to believe that the traction motors run on a lower voltage while on 1.5 kV, probably even a factor of 2. That could mean the motor could handle 3 kV.


When running under DC current, you obviously don't need a rectifier.
The usual setting is to use a chopper which transmits the full catenary voltage
at full throttle. The limitation of the power under 1.5 kV is most probably
coming from a power supply limitation when sets are running in multiple.

Under 25 kV, the transfo + rectifier "emulates" a DC catenary but without
the power supply limitation, so the full power of the motors can be used.

As I said above, the main problem is insulation. All the HT cabling would need
to be redone, and the motors changed, as the wire insulation in the motor
coils could not handle the 3 kV.


----------



## M-NL

Under DC current you don't need the rectifier, but it won't hurt either.
I hadn't thought of multiple running. 1.5kV x 4kA = 6MW, which is about the power of 2 sets:doh:
Anyway, whichever way you put it, you would indeed need a major overhaul to make it work under 3kV which is technically no problem, but very likely not worth it from a financial point of view.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> As I said above, the main problem is insulation. All the HT cabling would need
> to be redone, and the motors changed, as the wire insulation in the motor
> coils could not handle the 3 kV.


I thought the usual solution to running under 3kV was to just parallel engine pairs. That way what is needed is: Some cabling and switches and a pantograph suitable for 3kV. That is (AFAIK) how the Thalys PBKA sets do it.
However, retrofitting that to TGV PSE is not going to be easy, nor would it make economic sense...


----------



## Think

I just saw a TGV Postal and I ask: Does anyone knows how are they currently being used? Wich and how much services do they do?


----------



## 437.001

I think they used to run from Paris to Cavaillon.
But that was a few years ago, I don´t know if they still run.


----------



## Think

I've always listened that but I've never found the current situation.


----------



## Sunfuns

One TGV a day will be extended from Mulhouse to Freiburg starting from August 2013. The train will not go through Basel, but will instead use a direct connection restored after 29 years of inactivity.

http://www.basellandschaftlichezeit...tgv-von-basel-direkt-nach-marseille-125765474


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> One TGV a day will be extended from Mulhouse to Freiburg starting from August 2013. The train will not go through Basel, but will instead use a direct connection restored after 29 years of inactivity.
> 
> http://www.basellandschaftlichezeit...tgv-von-basel-direkt-nach-marseille-125765474


I thought the TGVs to Freiburg were already in use along the Mulhouse-Müllheim line.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> I thought the TGVs to Freiburg were already in use along the Mulhouse-Müllheim line.


Just checked to be sure and no, there is no direct connection right now (sncf.com).


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Just checked to be sure and no, there is no direct connection right now (sncf.com).


So it must be just the TER by now. 
The line HAS been finally reopened for a daily passenger service after many years.


----------



## 33Hz

Think said:


> I just saw a TGV Postal and I ask: Does anyone knows how are they currently being used? Wich and how much services do they do?



I passed a TGV Postal going the other way on the Sud Est line a few weeks ago. Two more were parked at Bercy.


----------



## 437.001

Yesterday I tried the new HSL Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant, I bought a return ticket from Tarragona to Perpignan.

Surprisingly, comparing with the last time I used that service (before the opening of the Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant stretch), the AVE between Barcelona and Figueres and the TGV between Figueres and Perpignan were quite full.

Moreover, I detected passengers Barcelona-London (at the very least there were fifteen), Barcelona-Brussels (a couple), Camp de Tarragona-Lille (a woman and her little daughter), and Madrid-Perpignan (a family of three plus grandpa and grandma), Camp de Tarragona-Toulouse (a family of three)...
Of course, there were also many Barcelona-Paris and Paris-Barcelona (loads of them).
And I also heard people speaking Dutch and German.
Also a number of Asian and Brazilian tourists. 

The most curious is that the Madrid-Figueres Vilafant AVE which don´t have a transfer for a TGV bound for Paris were almost empty between Barcelona and Figueres Vilafant.

I wonder wether this is the norm right now since the opening of the HSL, or it was just the high peak of May the 1st.


----------



## 437.001

At the very least till August the 25th... 



> *Technical issues delay Paris – Barcelona TGVs*
> 
> FRENCH National Railways (SNCF) and Renfe have postponed the launch of direct TGV services between Paris due to delays in completing certification of TGV Dasye sets for operation on the Figueres – Barcelona high-speed line.
> 
> The twice-daily Paris – Figueres TGVs were initially due to be extended to Barcelona at the end of this month, with Renfe launching a new Barcelona – Toulouse service at the same time.
> 
> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...al+problems+delay+Paris++Barcelona+TGV+launch


----------



## Axelferis

I begin a serie with the french HSR:

FRENCH HIGHSPEED RAIWAYS STATIONS

L I L L E E U R O P E (LGV NORD)

_Inaugurated in 1994, Lille europe is the first TGV station new generation designed by J.M Duthileul french architect for TGV design stations, it is located at the core of EURALILLE business district.
Created to connet the city to the major north european HSR network and french cities.
It has 6 ways.
Connected by the VAL metro Line 2._

DESTINATIONS/ARRIVALS

NORD EUROPE

London St pancras
Brussels midi

FRANCE

Calais
Boulogne/mer
Dunkerque
Paris Nord
Roissy CDG
Marne la vallée 
Rennes
Nantes
Bordeaux
Strasbourg
Lyon
Marseille
















Lille - Gare Europe par Sascha Plane-Train-Spotter, sur Flickr


Lille - Gare Europe par Sascha Plane-Train-Spotter, sur Flickr


Lille - Gare Europe par Sascha Plane-Train-Spotter, sur Flickr


lille-europe2 par tgveurofrance, sur Flickr


Gare-Lille Europe par bpmm, sur Flickr











lille-europe1 par tgveurofrance, sur Flickr


Lille-Europe - Voies 44 & 46 par Pi Eye, sur Flickr


Lille-Europe - Voies 43 & 45 par Pi Eye, sur Flickr











DSCF0299 par maxdufour, sur Flickr


Lille Europe France 5th September 2012 par loose_grip_99, sur Flickr


TGV Eurostar à Lille Europe - Juin 2010 par gog607, sur Flickr


Horloge Lille Europe par gog607, sur Flickr











Voie 44 à Lille Europe par gog607, sur Flickr


lille-europe4 par tgveurofrance, sur Flickr


Escalator par brigeham34, sur Flickr


Gare lille europe par axelferis, sur Flickr


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## 437.001

Thank you. kay:

For what I guess from your message, the configuration of Lille-Europe is as follows?: [2 platform tracks + 2 non-platform tracks + 2 platform tracks]

On the other hand, on the destinations list you missed Perpignan and Toulouse.


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## Axelferis

yes sorry!
the wiki page give all the destinations 


> Elle accueille les Eurostar transitant par Lille, à destination ou en provenance de Bruxelles, Londres et Paris, les TGV assurant les relations de *Boulogne, Calais ou Dunkerque à Paris-Nord *via Lille, les TERGV, TGV régionaux desservant Arras, Dunkerque, Calais et Boulogne, et les TGV contournant Paris, pour le Sud-Est, Ouest et l'Est à destination ou en provenance de *Saint-Malo* (à partir de l'été 2009), *Brest, Quimper, Rennes, Nantes, Le Croisic, Tours (St Pierre des Corps), Poitiers, Angoulême, Bordeaux, Hendaye, Irun, Toulouse, Perpignan, Montpellier, Marseille, Nice, Lyon, Grenoble, Belfort, Besançon, Brive la Gaillarde, Strasbourg *et encore des dizaines de villes de France


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Lille-Europe


----------



## Axelferis

M A R N E LA V A L L E E C H E S S Y (ILE DE FRANCE REGION)

_Marne-la-Vallée - Chessy is a combined RER (commuter rail) and TGV (high-speed train) station in the Île-de-France region of France, about 30 kilometres east of Paris. The station is located inside Disneyland Paris, in front of the entrances to the two theme parks and Disney Village. The station opened as an extension of the RER A in 1992, in conjunction with the opening of the theme park, with Euro Disney S.C.A. contributing €38.1 million of the €126.5 million cost.[1] The TGV part of the station opened two years after the RER station. On 29 June 1996 Eurostar began direct services from London to Disneyland Paris.

Passengers can travel by TGV from Charles de Gaulle Airport TGV station to this station in less than 10 minutes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Marne-la-Vallée_–_Chessy_

DESTINATIONS/ARRIVALS

NORD EUROPE

Brussels midi
London St pancras

FRANCE


Bordeaux, 
Marseille
Nice
Lyon
Rennes
Lille
Nantes
Limoges
Toulouse
Montpellier
Orléans
Grenoble 
Strasbourg


Gare Marne la Vallee - Chessy (Disneyland Paris) par Paul Seath, sur Flickr


2011-01-15 Disneyland Paris - Gare de Marne-la-Vallée Chessy - 1 par Topaas, sur Flickr


Away from Disney par The Big Jiggety, sur Flickr


tgv-dasye-762-1 par tgveurofrance, sur Flickr


Gare Tgv MLV Chessy par ThierryB., sur Flickr


Message subliminal par Jean Lemoine, sur Flickr


Gare de Marne-la-Vallée – Chessy par rosebennet, sur Flickr


----------



## Axelferis

R O I S S Y C D G 2(ILE DE FRANCE REGION)

_Aéroport Charles de Gaulle 2 TGV is a major passenger railway station in Tremblay-en-France, Paris, France. It is located directly beneath terminal two of Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport (between the C/D and E/F concourses) and is operated by the SNCF. The station was opened in 1994. It connects the airport to Paris and to various others cities in the France, as well as to Belgium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aéroport_Charles_de_Gaulle_2_TGV
_

DESTINATIONS/ARRIVALS

NORD EUROPE

Brussels midi

FRANCE


Lille Europe
Nantes
Le Mans
Angers
Rennes
Tours
Saint-Pierre-des-Corps
Bordeaux
Lyon
Marseille
Lyon
Nîmes
Montpellier
Perpignan
Strasbourg



















source: http://www.google.fr/imgres?client=...&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:74,s:0,i:327&tx=71&ty=9







































Modern(e) style par brigeham34, sur Flickr


Lille-Europe Béziers par brigeham34, sur Flickr


Going down or up? par Chris (= lisa thatsme), sur Flickr


Aéroport de Roissy - Charles de Gaulle par twiga_swala, sur Flickr


Aéroport de Roissy - Charles de Gaulle - Gare TGV par twiga_swala, sur Flickr











Gare TGV RER de Roissy par Ganymede2009, sur Flickr


CDG TGV par abac077, sur Flickr


Gare TGV Roissy / Charles de Gaulle, Roissy, France - 12/2007 par Purple Snail, sur Flickr











Aéroport de Roissy - Charles de Gaulle - Gare TGV par twiga_swala, sur Flickr


----------



## 3737

Axelferis said:


>


Do they also have some kind of border control at Lille for the eurostars ?


----------



## Axelferis

yes you access first to the international zone(customs with british policemen) +passengers waiting hall before arriving at the quay.
You cannot go to London without all those control checks trust me


----------



## 3737

Axelferis said:


> yes you access first to the international zone(customs with british policemen) +passengers waiting hall before arriving at the quay.
> You cannot go to London without all those control checks trust me


I know i've been to London 1 time with eurostar from brussels but at lille I couldn't see any type of border control. Are those platforms also used by normal TGV's ? If yes how do they prepare the arrival of a eurostar train ? Because the platform has to empty to avoid smugglers or illigal immigrants using the train to go to England.


----------



## hans280

3737 said:


> I know i've been to London 1 time with eurostar from brussels but at lille I couldn't see any type of border control. Are those platforms also used by normal TGV's ? If yes how do they prepare the arrival of a eurostar train ? Because the platform has to empty to avoid smugglers or illigal immigrants using the train to go to England.


They have dedicated platforms both in Brussels and Paris. As a train lover, let me say that the Brits are really a pain in the a**! A big part of the advantage of high-speed trains is supposed to be that you just get aboard and leave without wasting one minute on any of the tedious controls they have in airports. - And that's the case across Europe these days. Except... if you're unlucky enough to have to go to London. hno:


----------



## Axelferis

@3737-> the border control is at mezzanine (deck) level.
When you arrive from brussels you cannot see them because passengers who get on eurostar have down the stairs before accessing the final quay.

It is a dedicated international zone at the end of the station.


----------



## Stainless

hans280 said:


> They have dedicated platforms both in Brussels and Paris. As a train lover, let me say that the Brits are really a pain in the a**!


I know, it is our island mentality. However outside of rail links, it doesn't cause that much inconvenience. Ferry ports and airports typically involve quite a bit of waiting and queuing anyway so an extra layer of customs and passport control isn't really an issue.

Last time I took Eurostar London-Brussels, someone got on at Lille to go to Brussels and paid on the train. Is this normally possible? The guards seemed a little perplexed about it. Would she have had to show her passport for a journey entirely within Schengen?


----------



## Suburbanist

You are not required to have a passport to travel between Shcengen countries, not even by direct intra-Schengen flights. I'm not sure if Eurostar TOS formally require to have some valid ID. Moreover, each country has its own requirments on having (or not) IDs all the time.


----------



## SAS 16

Its funny because once i went to the UK by plane and i had mi Id instead of my passport ( i was travelling from spain) and it was not a problem. :nuts:


----------



## Attus

^^ Inside the EU the ID is enough, no passport needed, regardless if you travel inside the Schengen-area or not (considering the traveller himself is citizen of an EU nation). Additionally, if you travel inside the Schengen-area, there is no border check at all.


----------



## alserrod

It doesn't matter wether you are. If you travel with a French TGV Paris-Figueres V. and you want to shuttle with an AVE, this will be all the passport control you will have

(source: transport of Barcelona)










Nowadays there are two daily Paris-Figueres and eight Figueres-Madrid. Obviously two of them have schedules according to French trains and conversely. In fact, in all AVE trains loudspeakers are always in Spanish and English at least. In these trains, if I'm not wrong, information is given in Spanish, Catalan, French and English.

As you know, it is expected to have more services and some trains are under tests.


----------



## javimix19

- Is the line between Tours and Bourdeaux under construction? How long before this line is finished? and when this line is finished how much time it costs between Hendaye and Paris?

- Is the stretch between Hendaye and Bourdeaux going to be constructed in the near future? 

I live in the Basque Country so I'm very beneficiary of this line.


----------



## 437.001

javimix19 said:


> - Is the line between Tours and BourdeauxB*o*rdeaux under construction?


Yes. 

(btw, *Bourdeaux* is a tiny village in the departement of the Drôme in the region of Rhône-Alpes, while *Bordeaux* is the capital of Aquitaine)



> How long before this line is finished?


It´s supposed to be finished by 2017.



> and when this line is finished how much time it costs between Hendaye and Paris?


The travel time will be cut by around an hour and a half.



> - Is the stretch between Hendaye and Bourdeaux going to be constructed in the near future?
> 
> I live in the Basque Country so I'm very beneficiary of this line.


It should be but there are budgetary problems, and lots of... NYMBYs between Bayonne and Irun (between Irun and Vitoria too, but on the Spanish side they lost).


----------



## Axelferis

L Y O N ST E X U P E R Y (LGV RHÔNE-ALPES)

_Gare de Saint-Exupéry TGV (formerly Gare de Satolas) is a railway station near Lyon, France, directly attached to Lyon-Saint Exupéry Airport. The station was an addition to the airport built to serve TGV trains on the LGV Rhône-Alpes, part of the main line running from Paris to Marseille. It is situated about 20 km east of Lyon city centre.

Saint-Exupéry station was designed by Santiago Calatrava, cost 750 million Francs and opened on 3 July 1994, at the same as the high speed line to Saint-Marcel-lès-Valence. The building is mostly a combination of concrete and steel.

The station has six tracks laid in a cutting. The two central tracks are isolated to permit trains to traverse the station at full speed (300 km/h). Both sets of two tracks have platforms 500 m long. To the west, a small piece of land has been put aside for future expansion. Above the tracks, a 300 m long passenger concourse gives easy access to the platforms and is equipped with several travelators.
source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Lyon_Saint-Exupéry
_

DESTINATIONS/ARRIVALS

NORD EUROPE

Brussels midi


FRANCE

Lille europe
Paris gare de Lyon
Marne la vallée Chessy
Roissy CDG2



Gare TGV Lyon-Saint Exupéry (France) par vincentpretet, sur Flickr


Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr


Gare de Lyon Saint-Exupéry (Deux) par misterpulcri, sur Flickr


Gare TGV de Lyon Saint Exupèry (Lyon, France) par indeepdark, sur Flickr


Gare de Lyon Saint Exupéry par kopp38, sur Flickr


Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr


Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr


Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr


Calatrava Saint Exupery par Manuel.A.69, sur Flickr


Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr

Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr

Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr


Gare St Exupéry | Hall par Vision Photo-Graphique, sur Flickr


IMG_1890 par Thomas PASCUAL, sur Flickr


Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV (COLOMBIER-SAUGNIEU,FR69) par jean-louis zimmermann, sur Flickr


Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV (COLOMBIER-SAUGNIEU,FR69) par jean-louis zimmermann, sur Flickr


Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV (COLOMBIER-SAUGNIEU,FR69) par jean-louis zimmermann, sur Flickr


Lyon - Gare de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry TGV par IngolfBLN, sur Flickr


Gare Lyon Saint-Exupéry par dierk schaefer, sur Flickr


20121015/10 par Thomas PASCUAL, sur Flickr


Cold Symmetry par EpsilonVaz, sur Flickr


Plane by train par drlazymen, sur Flickr


----------



## Minato ku

St Exupery is a very beautiful station, it is a shame that it is quite useless and has a low number of passenger.
They wanted to do like CDG airport but Saint Exupery is a much smaller airport and access to the airport by transports from Lyon and its surroundings is insufficient.

CDG airport TGV station is attractive because CDG has a lot of international destination.
People who don't live in Paris area can use the TGV and then take a plane to a farther destination.

I am already more septic about the success of a TGV station in Orly airport.
The international destinal are less attractive for people leaving outside Paris.
The link to the success of a TGV station in Orly is a greater integration of the airport with its densily populated surroundings.


----------



## alserrod

Stunnig pictures about Satolas!!!!


----------



## 437.001

The entire report of the Duron Commission. (Careful! It´s very long and only in French, have Google Translate or similar at hand).

Essentially, it says that nearly all the HSLs not in works are postponed till 2030 or later (or no date at all), except for the Normandy HSL between Paris and Mantes-la-Jolie.

It also puts the POCL (Paris-Orleans-Clermont Ferrand-Lyon) HSL under close watch (though it´s not considered a priority before 2030), providing some funds in case that the saturation of the old Paris-Lyon HSL forced to advance the project sooner than expected.

In any case, these two are the only HSLs that seem to gain priority over all the other older projects.

It also provides some funds for Montpellier-Perpignan, Bordeaux-Toulouse and Bordeaux-Hendaye just in case, but reading between the lines one gets the clear impression that they´ve become less of a priority than the former two above.


----------



## javimix19

^^

What it pass with HSR between Lyon and Turin? It continues works?

What a shame with the line Bordeaux-Hendaye, not until 2030. Is France in hard economic situation? I don't understand that.


----------



## da_scotty

a Question, I will be travelling between Delft(Rotterdam) and Abbeville comming summer, I'll be taking the Thaly's to Paris Gare du Nord and then the Intercités to Abbeville. Can anyone tell me if the train to abbeville is of good quality (comparable in some sort to the Thaly's)? Will there be laptop powerpoints/Café carriages?


----------



## G5man

So are they saying Sud Europe Atlantique is going to be postponed? Cause that would reduce the benefit for Toulose to be connected to Bordeaux via LGV. POCL definitely needs to be still be on the radar but without extensions of the LGVs to Switzerland and Lyon Torino being put off, I doubt Sud-Est will grow. Once the connections are made to where Milan is within 4 hours of Paris, Barcelona in 4.5 hours, and Zurich travel time being reduced further, there will need to be a POCL due to more trains per hour on the LGV.


----------



## Minato ku

^^ LGV Sud Europe Atlantique is under in construction. 
No problem for this line.


----------



## 437.001

javimix19 said:


> ^^
> 
> What it pass with HSR between Lyon and Turin? It continues works?
> 
> What a shame with the line Bordeaux-Hendaye, not until 2030. Is France in hard economic situation? I don't understand that.


Yes, France is in a difficult economic position too.
It has the highest unemployment in many years (not like in Spain though, but for several reasons, the current unemployment in France is even worse in some aspects, due to the social differences between both countries).
Had France had the rate of unemployment of Spain, there would probably be a civil war or worse. 

Anyway, the travel time from Paris to Hendaye will improve even more once the HSL Tours-Bordeaux will open. 



da_scotty said:


> a Question, I will be travelling between Delft(Rotterdam) and Abbeville comming summer, I'll be taking the Thaly's to Paris Gare du Nord and then the Intercités to Abbeville. Can anyone tell me if the train to abbeville is of good quality (comparable in some sort to the Thaly's)? Will there be laptop powerpoints/Café carriages?


The train from Paris-Nord to Abbeville is an Intercités, usually Corail coaches. Bit old, but still good (at least to me). And no laptop power point, nor café coach (only maybe coffee trolley, but I´m not sure). 

If you have the time, take the train to Le Tréport-Mers les Bains, those two towns are not far from Abbeville and are beautiful. 

(unless you have already reserved, isn´t it better to take the train till Lille or TGV-Haute Picardie and then go to Abbeville via Amiens?) :?



G5man said:


> So are they saying Sud Europe Atlantique is going to be postponed? Cause that would reduce the benefit for Toulose to be connected to Bordeaux via LGV.


No. Only Bordeaux-Toulouse (maybe), and Bordeaux-Hendaye.
Tours-Bordeaux is in works and they won´t stop. 



> POCL definitely needs to be still be on the radar but without extensions of the LGVs to Switzerland and Lyon Torino being put off, I doubt Sud-Est will grow. Once the connections are made to where Milan is within 4 hours of Paris, Barcelona in 4.5 hours, and Zurich travel time being reduced further, there will need to be a POCL due to more trains per hour on the LGV.


POCL won´t improve nor worsen the travel time to Zurich in any way. 
Nor most of Switzerland, except maybe (only maybe, that´s yet to be seen) Geneva.

It could improve the travel time for inner destinations in central and southern France, and Barcelona. 
The big improvement of the connection Paris-Torino-Milan can only be achieved with the Lyon-Torino HSL, not just with POCL.
Paris-Barcelona instead, can substantially improve the travel time with POCL.

With POCL and later Montpellier-Perpignan, and IF the speed in POCL can be upgraded to 360km/h without any big increase in consumption of electricity, then Paris-Barcelona could be made in under 4h. Yes, I said under 4 hours.



Minato ku said:


> ^^ LGV Sud Europe Atlantique is under in construction.
> No problem for this line.


The only noisy place around this line is in Cognac, Saintes and Royan, which are claiming for an electrification of the Angoulême-Beillant-Saintes-Royan line.


----------



## da_scotty

437.001 said:


> The train from Paris-Nord to Abbeville is an Intercités, usually Corail coaches. Bit old, but still good (at least to me). And no laptop power point, nor café coach (only maybe coffee trolley, but I´m not sure).
> 
> If you have the time, take the train to Le Tréport-Mers les Bains, those two towns are not far from Abbeville and are beautiful.
> 
> (unless you have already reserved, isn´t it better to take the train till Lille or TGV-Haute Picardie and then go to Abbeville via Amiens?) :?


I'm going to Crotoy and I'll be picked up in Abbeville! And yes in a straight line the train via Lille is shorter, but it takes longer due to taking the bus and local trains. The Thaly's makes the difference I suppose! But thanks for your answer!


----------



## 437.001

To Le Crotoy? Looks like an interesting trip. Have a nice time in Picardy.


----------



## G5man

437.001 said:


> )
> POCL won´t improve nor worsen the travel time to Zurich in any way.
> Nor most of Switzerland, except maybe (only maybe, that´s yet to be seen) Geneva.
> 
> It could improve the travel time for inner destinations in central and southern France, and Barcelona.
> The big improvement of the connection Paris-Torino-Milan can only be achieved with the Lyon-Torino HSL, not just with POCL.
> Paris-Barcelona instead, can substantially improve the travel time with POCL.
> 
> With POCL and later Montpellier-Perpignan, and IF the speed in POCL can be upgraded to 360km/h without any big increase in consumption of electricity, then Paris-Barcelona could be made in under 4h. Yes, I said under 4 hours.
> .


 What I was meaning to say was that POCL would be needed if extensions of current LGVs were done along with Lyon-Torino since once they came under the 4 hour threshold and increased frequencies were needed or unless SNCF ordered more Duplex sets, POCL would be needed if capacity gets reached on Sud Est. My apologies for not making that clear.


----------



## alserrod

Minato ku said:


> ^^ LGV Sud Europe Atlantique is under in construction.
> No problem for this line.



When is it stimated to arrive, for instance, to Bordeaux?
thx in advance


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> When is it stimated to arrive, for instance, to Bordeaux?
> thx in advance


2017.


----------



## Sunfuns

Not sure we will still be around for it, but in some distant future there probably will be a fully high speed line between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux and Bilbao. After finishing the projects already under construction only small pieces will be missing. By this route it's only 200 km more than Paris-Barcelona.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> *
> -night trains Trenhotel Joan Miró Barcelona Estació de França-Paris Austerlitz, and Trenhotel Francisco de Goya Madrid Chamartín-Paris-Austerlitz will be discontinued.
> *


*

What will they do with the Trenotel trainsets?*


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> What will they do with the Trenotel trainsets?


Same as DB did with theirs, I suppose... Let them rust for 10 years on a
siding with no maintenance whatsoever, and then torch them away once
they have become definitely unserviceable.


----------



## K_

MarcVD said:


> Same as DB did with theirs, I suppose... Let them rust for 10 years on a
> siding with no maintenance whatsoever, and then torch them away once
> they have become definitely unserviceable.


Seems to happen a lot. There are a couple of Trenotel sets in Bosnia that haven't moved a lot either...


----------



## MarcVD

K_ said:


> Seems to happen a lot. There are a couple of Trenotel sets in Bosnia that haven't moved a lot either...


Yeah but those are brand new so one can only hope that revenue service
is only waiting for last technical problems to be solved before it can start.
But you are right, those things happen : look for example at the sets ordered
for Wisconsin in the USA and that will probably never turn a wheel...


----------



## javimix19

437.001 said:


> If you followed a bit more the Spanish railway forum bash, you´d know all you need to know about it.
> 
> 
> 
> It is written in the post just above yours. ^^ *READ IT*. :uh:


Ok, excuse me please, perhaps sometimes I read the posts quickly and some matters pass me. I'm sorry. I promise that will never pass again.


----------



## Suburbanist

javimix19 said:


> Ok, excuse me please, perhaps sometimes I read the posts quickly and some matters pass me. I'm sorry. I promise that will never pass again.


Don't worry, you are welcome on this thread. Some forumers are a bit angry because of repeated questions, but we are all here to chat and exchange information.


----------



## Svartmetall

437.001 said:


> If you followed a bit more the Spanish railway forum bash, you´d know all you need to know about it.
> 
> 
> 
> It is written in the post just above yours. ^^ *READ IT*. :uh:


Please be more polite to users asking questions. It may seem obvious to you that it has been discussed, but occasional users may have missed the information.


----------



## 437.001

Svartmetall said:


> Please be more polite to users asking questions. It may seem obvious to you that it has been discussed, but occasional users may have missed the information.


He´s not an unknown forumer to me, he´s a Spanish user too, and I´m in good terms with him.

Obviously I wouldn´t answer that to the first forumer I come across.


----------



## Rayancito

mramelet said:


> Parisian stations (gare du nord, Est, Lyon, Montparnasse, Saint Lazare) are done for Paris O&D.
> When it comes to transfert, France has build a kind of "bypass", via Charles de Gaulle Airport (from the North), Disneyland (from the south), and Massy-Palaiseau (for South West).
> That means you can do a (Brussels)Lille-(CDG)-Marseille-Nice, or a Strasbourg-(Disneyland,Massy)-Bordeaux with going via Paris.
> It's not the best route (particularly South West junction which is very limited in speed and capacity), but it does exists.
> Plans exist to improve it, and create a new railway station at Orly


I have checked in voyages sncf some direct trains, it is quite strange that Lille Tours takes 2 H 52 for a distance of around 450 Km, while Nimes Paris takes the same 2 H 52 for a distance of around 700 Km. This is due to the limitations of the south west bypass?

Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Rayancito said:


> Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.


Beijing-Shanghai takes that same amount of time, and those trains are PACKED :lol:


----------



## Clery

Rayancito said:


> Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.


What is your better alternative?

There is 1,003 km between Lille and Marseille. By road, the trip would take from 9 to 10 hours. By plane, the trip would take at best 3 stressful hours in much poorer conditions.

Not only trains allow you to directly travel from city center to city center without any waiting time at the rail station, it's also a lot more comfortable as a way to travel : the passenger has more space, larger seat, wider table, a Wi-Fi connection, and he is able to walk to get a drink or a meal at the bar-restaurant.


----------



## Suburbanist

Trains to Marseille are quite competitive with air and driving indeed.... the problem is the Cote d'Azur. Nice has horrible train connections.


----------



## makita09

Rayancito said:


> I have checked in voyages sncf some direct trains, it is quite strange that Lille Tours takes 2 H 52 for a distance of around 450 Km, while Nimes Paris takes the same 2 H 52 for a distance of around 700 Km. This is due to the limitations of the south west bypass?
> 
> Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.


Checking today I can take TGV from Lille to Le Mans which takes two and a half hours. Then I need to change to a regional express to get to Tours. Le Mans is almost precisely the same distance from Paris as Le Mans (by LGV..). It suggests to me that the figure you have quoted actually isn't a direct TGV?

Anyway, that 20 minutes needs to account for the 150km difference in distance (I think you have over-quoted the Paris - Nimes distance). Well, at 300km/h it only takes 30 minutes to cover 150km. The Lille - Le Mans train needs to slow down a tad for the LGV interconnxxion and south-paris suburban lines, and calls at CGD, Marne-La-Vallee TGV, and Massy TGV. Half an hour easily accounted for there. Plus there will almost certainly be abit of timetable padding at one of the outer-Paris stations, in order to align the TGV from the LGV Nord timetable to the LGV Atlantique timetable, which are largely independent and unsynchronised.

Regards the 4hr 46 Lille - Marseille, I don't understand why you presume on this information alone that the train is mostly empty. Have a look at the below, this train is certainly not empty.


----------



## 437.001

There´s something wrong in your message, makita09. But I don´t know exactly what. ^^


----------



## Rayancito

Clery said:


> What is your better alternative?
> 
> There is 1,003 km between Lille and Marseille. By road, the trip would take from 9 to 10 hours. By plane, the trip would take at best 3 stressful hours in much poorer conditions.
> 
> Not only trains allow you to directly travel from city center to city center without any waiting time at the rail station, it's also a lot more comfortable as a way to travel : the passenger has more space, larger seat, wider table, a Wi-Fi connection, and he is able to walk to get a drink or a meal at the bar-restaurant.


 The first point is how many people (in %) will prefer to travel from Lille to Marseille in almost 5 hours, because to really beat the plane time should be better, and second and much more important question is that you can use a small regional plane to deserve this two cities, while you can not in the case of a train, all tgv´s are huge. That is why i wonder what the load factor is.

Maybe i have a confusion with the term direct trains, wich actually means no transfers, because if the train actually makes stops, without transfers, then ok, the train can be full with people travelling from lille to Paris, from Paris to Marseille....Direct probably does not mean non stop.


----------



## Rayancito

makita09 said:


> Checking today I can take TGV from Lille to Le Mans which takes two and a half hours. Then I need to change to a regional express to get to Tours. Le Mans is almost precisely the same distance from Paris as Le Mans (by LGV..). It suggests to me that the figure you have quoted actually isn't a direct TGV?


 All i know is that in the voyages.sncf..com the train with a journey of 2 H 52 appears as a direct trip with no transfer, there are multiple trains doing the service that day that do have a transfer. On the other hand maybe in voyages.sncf.com they do not include stops, then is very hard to make a comparision, because those stops can take long time and even make the train travel more Kilometers, just to make the stop. Probably direct does not mean non stop, i was confused about that.




makita09 said:


> Regards the 4hr 46 Lille - Marseille, I don't understand why you presume on this information alone that the train is mostly empty. Have a look at the below, this train is certainly not empty.


 I am not assuming anything, it just seems strange to me this trains can be full, that is why i am asking the load factor. A single trip one day does not make profitable one service.


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## Clery

makita09 said:


> Anyway, that 20 minutes needs to account for the 150km difference in distance (I think you have over-quoted the Paris - Nimes distance).


The distance between Paris and Nîmes is exactly of 713 km. Rayancito was correct.



makita09 said:


> Well, at 300km/h it only takes 30 minutes to cover 150km. The Lille - Le Mans train needs to slow down a tad for the LGV interconnxxion and south-paris suburban lines, and calls at CGD, Marne-La-Vallee TGV, and Massy TGV. Half an hour easily accounted for there. Plus there will almost certainly be abit of timetable padding at one of the outer-Paris stations, in order to align the TGV from the LGV Nord timetable to the LGV Atlantique timetable, which are largely independent and unsynchronised.


No, TGVs avoiding Paris don't interfere with suburban trafic. However, they have to take regular tracks. They can't do it at full HSR speed.

On the other side, the trip from Paris to Nîmes is on HSR lines all the way, which probably explains why it is so fast.




Rayancito said:


> The first point is how many people (in %) will prefer to travel from Lille to Marseille in almost 5 hours, because to really beat the plane time should be better, and second and much more important question is that you can use a small regional plane to deserve this two cities, while you can not in the case of a train, all tgv´s are huge. That is why i wonder what the load factor is.
> 
> Maybe i have a confusion with the term direct trains, wich actually means no transfers, because if the train actually makes stops, without transfers, then ok, the train can be full with people travelling from lille to Paris, from Paris to Marseille....Direct probably does not mean non stop.


Direct means non stop. There's no confusion here.

Both Marseille and Lille serve regions of about 3 million people. They are not "small". To fill up trains, you just need to lower their frequency. It's that simple. And indeed, there's only a direct train from Lille to Marseille every 3 hours.

As a matter of fact, domestic flights have been largely reduced in France with the development of high speed rail. The trafic has massively concentrated in the hub of Paris, with direct connection to TGV to serve the rest of the country. As a consequence, domestic flights which don't involve Paris are usually expensive and of low frequency.

TGV offers far better trip conditions for business travellers, with Wi-Fi access and wall plugs for the computer, making it possible to work in very good conditions. As for tourists, TGV remains a lot cheaper than plane (despite recent prices increase).


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## Rayancito

Clery said:


> No, TGVs avoiding Paris don't interfere with suburban trafic. However, they have to take regular tracks. They can't do it at full HSR speed. On the other side, the trip from Paris to Nîmes is on HSR lines all the way, which probably explains why it is so fast.).Direct means non stop. There's no confusion here.


 I have taken the Nimes Paris direct non stop train, it was wonderful. The speed is 248 Km / H, just like Madrid Barcelona. The speed for Lille Tours it is only 156 Km / H.

Are there any plans to improve the south west By Pass? It could actually alow trains from London to go to Bordeaux directly with a wonderfull time.





Clery said:


> Both Marseille and Lille serve regions of about 3 million people. They are not "small". To fill up trains, you just need to lower their frequency. It's that simple. And indeed, there's only a direct train from Lille to Marseille every 3 hours..


 In Spain Seville Barcelona and Malaga Barcelona have a couple of services per day not entering Madrid, with about 7 stops each........



Clery said:


> As a matter of fact, domestic flights have been largely reduced in France with the development of high speed rail. The trafic has massively concentrated in the hub of Paris, with direct connection to TGV to serve the rest of the country. As a consequence, domestic flights which don't involve Paris are usually expensive and of low frequency.
> 
> TGV offers far better trip conditions for business travellers, with Wi-Fi access and wall plugs for the computer, making it possible to work in very good conditions. As for tourists, TGV remains a lot cheaper than plane (despite recent prices increase).


 Probably you need to treat better Ryan air for regional aviation not serving Paris. Lille Marseille is a good example, it could be faster and much cheaper.


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## alserrod

My few and far away things I remember about French railways where:

- Easy to connect from one train to other. Possibility to have in the same ticket and some of the trains were linked so you could have a long distance train and will arrive at the same time than other one... and that stuff
- Long time to avoid stopping at Paris. I wonder if it wouldn't be faster to arrive to Paris, get a metro or RER and another TGV in other direction (specially if more frequencies)
- A great deal of differences between TGV and other trains...


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## mcarling

Rayancito said:


> Maybe i have a confusion with the term direct trains, wich actually means no transfers, because if the train actually makes stops, without transfers, then ok, the train can be full with people travelling from lille to Paris, from Paris to Marseille....Direct probably does not mean non stop.


Direct means not having to change trains, whether or not there are intermediate stops. (It's almost the same with aircraft; direct flights may stop (and, technically, even change planes) but continue with the same flight number.)


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## 437.001

hseugut said:


> Link does not work


It did, seems like the site is temporarily down for some works.

Better check later. :dunno:


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## Think

Are the oldest Eurostar releaved to TGV services? I had to make several trips in the last days in the LGV Nord and I've always taken TGV services, that were announced and sold as TGVs (I bought them by myself in the ticket hall because the travels departament of my company has I don't know what problem with the e-tickets of SNCF) and they were always operated by old Eurostars. Also some of them had TGV sticks.


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## 437.001

Those are NOL trains.
A stock of a few "Eurostar" trains was sent to companies with the idea of operating services north of London (hence "NOL"). THey were not much used, and they were hired by Sncf, which uses them in services from Paris to the Nord-Pas de clais región (Lille, Dunkerque, Boulogne, etc).


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## desi1

Bren said:


> In the last born TGV Duplex, upper deck, economy class.
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> IMG]


So, no more of the ugly multi-couloured Lacroix(?) livery ? Thank God. I hated it. :cheers:


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## Think

437.001 said:


> Those are NOL trains.
> A stock of a few "Eurostar" trains was sent to companies with the idea of operating services north of London (hence "NOL"). THey were not much used, and they were hired by Sncf, which uses them in services from Paris to the Nord-Pas de clais región (Lille, Dunkerque, Boulogne, etc).


Thanks. The only TGV services that I've seen in the line that were operated by TGV stock were those travelling throught Roissy-CDG.

They are confortable trains, specially due to the big shelves for the luggage next to the doors. I think that they travel with the bar closed.


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## Sunfuns

I just used this new TGV Duplex for the first time, albeit it was only to get from Basel to Zurich so no high speed. Really nice train albeit someone had already ripped off the garbage can next to our seats ...


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## JumpUp

HeyHo,

at the moment I'm searching around wikipedia and my french about the different types of TGV Duplex generations. It's NOT easy for me. Can anybody please help me with the different generations with delivery and about the ability to run in the non-frech countries.

This is what I found out, please correct me if I am wrong:

Thank you so much - hopefully I will get the TGV Duplex a bit clear:

*First generation TGV Duplex:*

Trains 201 - 230: delivery 1995 - 1997 (Trains 219 - 222 are built to Ouigo)

Trains 231 - 289: delivery 2001 - 2006

All trains (bicourant) are able to run under 25 kV, 50 Hz AC 1,5 kv DC
Wikipedia say that there are trains no. 290 - 293: I don't understand what they are used to do?

Are they able to run into foreign countries?

Train no. 255 is not running anymore

*
Second generation Réseau Duplex:*

Trains 601 - 619: Went into service in 2006 - 2007
(Train 613 - 615 are tricourage while the rest is able to operate under 25 kV, 50 Hz AC 1,5 kv DC only. Are Train no. 613 - 615 able to run to Belgium? If yes, are they today in service to/from Belgium?)
Motors were taken from TGV Réseau sets that were used to build the TGV POS


*Third generation Dayse:*

Trains 701 - 749 (or 753??): formed with TGV POS motors. 
Are the 51 TGV Dayse trains able to run to foreign countries? 

[Trains 725 - 750 are able to run to the spanish city of Figueres.
The TGV Dayse went into service between 2008 and 2011.

24 TGV Dayse were ordered in 2005, 25 in 2007 (plus additional 3 in 2008, why are they ordered??) -.

The TGV Ouigo trains were formed with trains no. 721 - 724 and are now named no. 760 - 763.

Are the TGV Dayse only bicourant?

*Fourth generation TGV 2N2 or EuroDuplex:*

Is it correct, that those are NOT called TGV Dayse anymore? Are all of them called EuroDuplex/2n2 or is this expression only for the international no.?

55 tricourant trains:

a) 30 trains "3UA" (tricourant Allemagne): 4701 - 4730: Trains are able to run to Germany and Switzerland. Are all 30 able to run into BOTH countries?

b) 10 trains "3UH" (tricourant Hispanisé): 801 - 810: Trains to run into Spain.

c) 15 trains "3UF" (tricourant France): 811 - 825: Those 15 trains are only for French domestic traffic - Why tricourant? Is bicourant not enough for domestic service?

*5th Generation*

Now I understand that SNCF ordered 30 additional TGV 2N2 in summer 2012 and 10 in summer 2014:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/sncf-orders-40-euroduplex-sets.html

Are they only for domestic services or will they run international? What will the numbers be? 


Thank you very much for your information. Can anybody tell me what trains are able to run with ETCS? What trains are able to run to Belgium, France, Germany, Swiss and Luxembourg?

Thanks!


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## AlexNL

No Duplex trains run to Belgium nowadays.

The DASYE (Duplex ASYnchrone ERTMS) and Euroduplex sets are equipped with ERTMS.


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## Coccodrillo

Here a list according to an article on the last Rail Passion magazine with integrations from Wikipedia, as is common in TGV history some trainsets have been rearranged and renumbered so this adds confusion:
* 201-289 first batch delivered until 2006, vehicles from trains 219-222 were splitted in various sets (see below), while train was 255 rebuilt as DASYE 750 with two new locomotives (units 29799/29800) after an accident where one of the original locomotives (29110) caught fire
* 290-293 trains formed by locomotives from trains 219-222 and coaches from train 721-724
* 601-619 Réseau-Duplex units, alias RD, made by new coaches and older locomotives taken from some Réseau sets (whose coaches became TGV POS with new locomotives), in service from around 2008, trains 613-615 have 3-current locomotives (3 kV DC, ex 4507-4509 for Belgium)
* 701-749 new DASYE sets, from February 2008)
* 750 ex train 255, see above, new locomotives like 701-749 but coaches from train 255
* 760-763 trains formed by locomotives from trains 721-724 and coaches from train 219-222
* 801-810 alias 3UH, for Spain, if I understand correctly without equipment for 15 kV AC
* 811-825 alias 3UF, for France only, same as above, no 15 kV
* 4701-4730 alias 3UA, alias Euroduplex, for Germany and Switzerland (I think they are equipped for both at the same time)
* 40 new sets ordered in July 2013, they were the options of the 2007 bid for trains 8xx and 47xx but will only be used for France, so I suppose they could be numbered 826-865, deliveries 2015-2019
* a single spare locomotive type 3UA, also compatible with POS and DASYE sets (that is, 7xx, 8xx, 44xx, 47xx), but according to Wikipedia numbered in the same range as 3UF locomotives, not as 3 UA locomotives

Basically trains 219-222 and 721-724 swapped the coaches with each other becoming 290-293 and 760-763, these latter being the Ouigo sets.

Trains 732-749 (not the other of the 7xx series) can go to Figueras, but not Barcelona.

All trains of the 7xx series have DASYE locomotives, there are a total of 50 of them as not all numbers between 701 and 763 are used.

Coaches of trains 601-619 are identical to those of the 2xx series. I'm not sure that 613-615 (locomotives from 4507-4509) can still go to Belgium, probably not. The end coaches of train 618 were those used for the 575 km/h record (the central coach of the record train was specially built and is not in service with SNCF, while locomotives were used for a POS set, 4402 or 4406 I don't remember).

The only trains approved to run outside France are 4701-4730 for the 15 kV networks and 801-810 for Spain (plus 732-749 -not 725-750 as Wikipedia says- that can go until Figueras but not beyond, and 613-615).


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## zilze

Nice Interior kay:


desi1 said:


> So, no more of the ugly multi-couloured Lacroix(?) livery ? Thank God. I hated it. :cheers:


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## zilze

Nice interior kay:


Bren said:


> In the last born TGV Duplex, upper deck, economy class.


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## JumpUp

quick question:

Is the LGV est Phase 2 (to Strasbourg) scheduled to open in December 2015 or December 2016.

Thanks!


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## Flo Flo

Neither one nor the other 

March 2016


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## hans280

zilze said:


> Nice interior kay:


I respectfully disagree. The German ICEs (wooden panels, crome....) are IMHO much more tasteful. Other trains as well. This is not to say that the French are not capable of doing better - the somewhat spartan interior of the TGVs was a political choice. The then-president Francois Mitterand was acutely aware that the new TGV concept was likely to attract mainly business people, single travelers and wealthy families, so decided to "democratiser la vitesse" (=democratize the speed) avoiding any frills and luxuries. - However, many ordinary people in France still call TGV the "train des millionaires".


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## 33Hz

Given that I've traveled first class the length of the country for €19 (and that was before iDTGV or OuiGo), I'd have to disagree about the millionaires thing...


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## zilze

@ hans280
I totally understand ur explanation and i appreciate the extra info. I haven't seen the interior of the German ICEs and would like to see. Can u post any pics.


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## Nexis




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## M-NL

A noise study of the Dutch HSL-Zuid revealed that the ventilation openings on top of the motor cars and the pantographs were the noisiest parts of the Thalys trains running there (Thalys trains are essentially repainted TGVs). It's interesting to see that this video also confirms that.


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## Suburbanist

Isn't regenerative braking the most problematic noise emission from high-speed trains (they are low-frequency and propagate more therefore)?


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## M-NL

At speeds of 160 km/h and over, they concluded aerodynamic noise was the most prevalent, but I can't remember where the test locations were and therefore if some of them were in accelleration or braking zones. The study did include frequency distribution graphs, which I didn't study in detail.

They also concluded that at service speed HSTs (at 250 to 285 km/h) were noisier then 'regular' trains (at 160 km/h), but also that an HST at 160 km/h was quieter then the regular train.


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## donquichotedelmedina

*Drilling begins on high-speed Alpine rail running from France to Italy*
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/...eed-alpine-rail-running-from-france-to-italy/


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## JumpUp

HeyHo,

I've got a few questions about the interieur of the TGV Duplex.

There is an "old" and "new" interieur:

*Old:*

_1st class_











_2nd class_










*New:*


_1st class_








_2nd class_










And of course there is the (modernized) low-cost train:

*TGV Ouigo*











My question:

1) What TGV Duplex series have the old Interieur, and which TGV Duplex have the new one?

2) Is there another TGV Duplex Interieur design than the three I showed? Did I forget one?

3) Any plans to modernize the "old" TGV Duplex design? Is that still the original one, or has it been changed already?


There are First generation Duplex (two deliveries), Reseau Duplex, Dayse and 2N2 trains ))

Thanks for your information!

Phillip


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## donquichotedelmedina

* A DIRECT TGV* service between Paris and Barcelona will *enter service on December 15*. 


> ...The two countries' high-speed networks were linked earlier this year but passengers still had to change trains at Figueres, near the French border, a manoeuvre that added 20 minutes to the journey time.
> 
> Previously, rail passengers had to take an overnight train to make the trip.
> 
> Spain's RENFE railways operator and France's SNCF will run the line together.
> 
> SNCF said the new daily services comprised two return trips between Paris and Barcelona, one return trip between Lyon and Barcelona and one return trip between Toulouse and Barcelona...


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## Sesto Elemento

From brisavoine


brisavoine said:


> Some pictures of the Tours-Bordeaux high-speed line under construction in France. It is currently the largest engineering project in Europe.
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> This line will enable high-speed TGV trains to run at 320 km per hour (200 miles per hour) when it opens in 2017, and so it will take only 2 hours and 5 minutes to go from Paris to Bordeaux (two cities as far apart as NYC and Montréal, or LA and San Jose; the section from Paris to Tours was already opened to traffic in 1990).
> 
> In this photo tour, we'll start at the southern end of the line near Bordeaux, then move north towards the northern end of the line at Tours, then back south to Bordeaux where we'll finish the tour. The photos here come from the official website of the Tours-Bordeaux high-speed line (http://www.lgv-sea-tours-bordeaux.fr) and from the website of Patrick Le Doaré (http://www.pascal-ledoare.com).
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## Silly_Walks

Amazing post, thank you.


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## 437.001

I can´t believe *brisavoine* could be able to post things like this.


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## Sesto Elemento

^^ Why ?

He had posted it on SkyscraperPage.


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## 437.001

^^ Dunno, I didn´t imagine him being aware of trains... :dunno:

==========================================================================

Anyway, here you have *this*:



airoviedo said:


> *Barcelona-Sants station*.
> 
> Five days left.


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## Silver Swordsman

I have a feeling that if Californian farmers saw the extent of destruction during construction, they would go even nuttier. 

Not that they aren't already, but I can see how these pictures can potentially add more fuel to the fire. 

In any case, why is the travel time more than 2 hours for a 340km line with an operating speed of 320kmh?


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## k.k.jetcar

Silver Swordsman said:


> I have a feeling that if Californian farmers saw the extent of destruction during construction, they would go even nuttier.
> 
> Not that they aren't already, but I can see how these pictures can potentially add more fuel to the fire.
> 
> In any case, why is the travel time more than 2 hours for a 340km line with an operating speed of 320kmh?


I reckon the average speed on this route is lower, you have to take into account the approaches to stations/terminals on conventional speed track, the interlockings, etc.


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## JeroenMostert

Silver Swordsman said:


> In any case, why is the travel time more than 2 hours for a 340km line with an operating speed of 320kmh?


The 2:05 is for the trip PARIS - Bordeaux which is around 500 km ( In a straight line 580 driving distance)

The 340 km new line is from Tours to Bordeaux .


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## Matthieu

hans280 said:


> However, many ordinary people in France still call TGV the "train des millionaires".


So many ordinary people that it's the first time I hear about this.


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## eomer

Silver Swordsman said:


> I have a feeling that if Californian farmers saw the extent of destruction during construction, they would go even nuttier.


That kind of pictures is allways impressive but things will change quickly after construction end. Countryscape will be healed in a few years.


----------



## 437.001

^^
The thing is: if those pictures were of a new motorway, would they be complaining as well? :sly:


----------



## MarcVD

437.001 said:


> ^^
> The thing is: if those pictures were of a new motorway, would they be complaining as well? :sly:


Probably not... But the next entry/exit complex on the new motorway would
probably be only a couple of miles away, and they would use it everyday. 
While the nearest train station will be a good hundredts miles away, and they
will use it twice a year, if ever. We have to accept this, fast rail lines are 
made for for urban citizens, not for people living in the country side, who 
have to take all inconveniences without palating any of the advantages.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Tohoku Shinkansen between Sendai and Shin-Aomori is 349,5 km and has 11 intermediate stations. How many stations does LGV between Tours and Bordeaux have?


----------



## 437.001

chornedsnorkack said:


> Tohoku Shinkansen between Sendai and Shin-Aomori is 349,5 km and has 11 intermediate stations. How many stations does LGV between Tours and Bordeaux have?


None on the HSL.
All stations are located outside the HSL, on the classic line, to which the TGVs get through branch lines.
The stations where the TGVs can call are St Pierre des Corps (Tours), Châtellerault, Poitiers, Angoulême, and Bordeaux St Jean.
Not sure about Futuroscope station... :hmm:
Jonzac, Libourne, and Coutras stations are out of reach of the HSL.


----------



## MarcVD

chornedsnorkack said:


> Tohoku Shinkansen between Sendai and Shin-Aomori is 349,5 km and has 11 intermediate stations. How many stations does LGV between Tours and Bordeaux have?


I must admit I do not know very much about Japan, but I expect this route
to be in a landscape with a quite high population density, which sort of 
justifies those intermediate stops.

In France, outside big cities, population is scarce. No other stations can be 
justified than those cited by 437.001 above. Which means, spaced by 80 km
or so. And not served by the majority of the trains (you can look at 
schedules for lines already in service to get an idea on how many trains will 
make intermediate stops).

Now, how often in a year does a typical farmer or countryside person take a 
trip that will begin by a 50 km car ride to the next train station ? In 
comparison, how often in a year could he use a motorway whose next exit is 
10 km away ?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

MarcVD said:


> I must admit I do not know very much about Japan, but I expect this route
> to be in a landscape with a quite high population density, which sort of
> justifies those intermediate stops.


Tohoku Shinkansen serves Tohoku region which is relatively sparsely settled compared to rest of Japan.
Miyagi prefecture - 7285 square km, 2,338 million people, 321 per square km
Iwate prefecture - 15 278 square km, 1,331 million people, 90 per square km
Aomori prefecture - 9606 square km, 1,373 million people, 154 per square km

That said, I expect that these prefectures contain appreciable mountain areas even more sparsely settled, and Shinkansen follows plains and valleys where the population is concentrated.


----------



## 437.001

*Barcelona-Sants station*.

Three days left. 



Vignole said:


> http://www.transport.cat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7395&start=1580


----------



## Coccodrillo

> 40% of TGV trains still travel on conventional track rather than the specially built high-speed lines


And what's wrong with that?


----------



## Suburbanist

Straight from the (how should Cour des Comptes be called in Enligsh?)

(full report -PDF)


> *Recommandations*
> 
> La Cour formule huit recommandations visant notamment à :
> 1. mieux intégrer la grande vitesse aux choix de mobilité des Français, en insérant le TGV dans une offre tirant parti de l’ensemble des moyens de transport et en levant les restrictions à la concurrence des modes de transport longues distances routiers ;
> 
> 2*. restreindre progressivement le nombre d’arrêts sur les tronçons de LGV et de dessertes des TGV sur voies classiques et extrémités de lignes*, en ne conservant que celles justifiées par un large bassin de population ;
> 
> 3. assurer la transparence des données de la SNCF, en particulier la fréquentation par ligne ;
> 
> 4. faire prévaloir l’évaluation socio-économique des projets de LGV annoncés ;
> 
> 5. ne décider du lancement des études préliminaires qu’après :
> - la définition d’un plan d’affaires pour la ligne, associant le gestionnaire d’infrastructure et le ou les opérateurs ferroviaires ;
> - la prise en compte par une décision interministérielle formelle des perspectives de financement du projet d’infrastructure et la répartition entre les acteurs (État, RFF, éventuellement collectivités territoriales) ;
> 
> 6. veiller au paiement par l’Afitf de ses engagements financiers vis-à-vis de RFF et clarifier rapidement la question des ressources de cette agence ;
> 
> 7. concentrer en priorité les moyens financiers sur l’entretien du réseau par rapport aux projets de développement et améliorer le pilotage de la prestation d’entretien du réseau ferroviaire par le gestionnaire d’infrastructure ;
> 
> 8. veiller à ce que la définition des futurs ratios d’endettement du gestionnaire d’infrastructure conduise effectivement à ne pas financer des projets non rentables.


'
They recommend reducing the number of stops, in particular the "branching" of trains after the end of high-speed line sectors (if I understood it correctly). They want more direct and faster connections (as it is explained on the report) to increase time-sensitive attractiveness of TGV.


----------



## Tower Dude

This should make the system a lot more efficient.


----------



## K_

Tower Dude said:


> This should make the system a lot more efficient.


On thing they could do is have the TGVs make less stops, and have more "TERGV" type services, integrated in the local network, with coordinated transfers to the TGV network.


----------



## Tower Dude

It's how the Japanese operate their trains.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## Nexis




----------



## Zero Gravity

^^
50fps is so satisfying.


----------



## Minato ku

K_ said:


> On thing they could do is have the TGVs make less stops, and have more "TERGV" type services, integrated in the local network, with coordinated transfers to the TGV network.





Tower Dude said:


> It's how the Japanese operate their trains.


On high speed tracks there are very few stops but it is when TGV uses normal line after that they recommand to make less stop.
Most small or medium cities refuse to lose their direct connection to Paris.

The best would be to restrict the TGV to regional hubs, more trains between Paris and the regional hub and then regional services to other cities.

This is also a good way to increase the traffic of some train stations because outside Lyon Part-Dieu, Lille Flandres and Strasbourg, the traffic in main train stations outside Paris is quite low.


----------



## Nexis

IMG_1366 
by Sarouman, on Flickr


IMG_1374 by Sarouman, on Flickr


IMG_1381 by Sarouman, on Flickr


IMG_1382 by Sarouman, on Flickr


----------



## Alixx

High Speed line Tours-Bordeaux (300km).
Designed for 350km/h. Open 2017


----------



## Alixx




----------



## JloKyM

A TGV train passing through Versailles Chantier Train Station


----------



## CB31

*SNCF launches its ambitious, transformative #DIGITALSNCF agenda*












> SNCF embarking on an ambitious, multi-year agenda to drive the complete digital transformation of their business. #DIGITALSNCF comprises several big initiatives focused on 4 principal areas including Open Data, Big Data, Design and Connected Objects. Some of the key initiatives include using tablets for maintenance of their train system, partnering with startups to develop and launch new mobile applications, and launching an effort to open up even more to the tech ecosystem with their Open Data, Open API and Open Innovation programs. Their objective is for these initiatives to fruition over the next 18 months.
> 
> One of the standout new initiatives for SNCF, particularly over the next 6 months, will be their increased focus on connected objects and robotics which they see as important future drivers of growth. They’re even working on ways to integrate augmented reality into the maintenance and servicing of their train system which they believe will lead to better results and lower costs.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Finally, and perhaps their biggest announcement, was that they will soon be launching 30 million euro fund over the next three years. From the fund they’ll invest in 12 to 15 startups focusing on digital innovation of transportation.
> 
> *Finally, they also have some big plans for the area that is perhaps most important to travellers, wifi access.* Last fall, SNCF announced some big steps to continue their journey of upgrading significantly the digital experience for their users, including equipping SNCF stations and some lines with 3G/4G. *Travellers will finally see big results on this as they plan to equip all TGV trains with free wifi by end 2016.*


http://www.rudebaguette.com/2015/02/10/sncf-launches-ambitious-transformative-digitalsncf-agenda/

:cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

About time. For the modern traveler, WiFi is a facility that makes travel time more productive.


----------



## MarcVD

Suburbanist said:


> About time. For the modern traveler, WiFi is a facility that makes travel time more productive.


May be but my question is "do they get their priorities right". I mean, the
SNCF network and the way it is operated is in such a state of disrepair that
there are many other, more important objectives to pursue than this. Like
getting freight customers back, fixing lines "temporarily suspended" because
of deferred maintenance, improve reliability, bring operating costs back, etc.
But in fact I think that this kind of communication is just smoke & mirrors to
prevent the public to realize that they are totaly incapable to achieve those
goals.


----------



## Suburbanist

MarcVD said:


> May be but my question is "do they get their priorities right". I mean, the
> SNCF network and the way it is operated is in such a state of disrepair that
> there are many other, more important objectives to pursue than this. Like
> getting freight customers back, fixing lines "temporarily suspended" because
> of deferred maintenance, improve reliability, bring operating costs back, etc.
> But in fact I think that this kind of communication is just smoke & mirrors to
> prevent the public to realize that they are totaly incapable to achieve those
> goals.


But SNCF is not the entity I'm charge of tracks


----------



## MarcVD

They have re-united SNCF and RFF now (a la Deutsche Bahn) so it makes no difference
anymore. And there are enough points to be solved at the SNCF side to keep them busy
for several years. Like preparing for the opening of the regional passengers market. Many
SNCF regions publicly say that they are so unhappy with SNCF service and price that
they would go immediately to competition if it was possible now.


----------



## Honolulu

Video: 

http://api.dmcloud.net/player/pubpa...88?wmode=transparent&chromeless=0&***********

Power outage at the worst possible time this morning(just as the kids start their holidays ). Paris-Rennes TGVs will all be a minimum of 2 hours late because of the power outage. The problem will be fixed by Saturday morning at the earliest and until then all trains will make a detour using the lines passing by Nantes. 

500 people were stranded in one of the TGVs for more than 4 hours until a TER came to rescue them. Originally the plan was to get a diesel locomotive to tow the TGV but a damaged catenary rendered the operation impossible. Also, because the track was too far away from the road they could not get buses to rescue them for security reasons (I assume because of liability)

The incident in question happened in the departement of Mayenne at the commune of Saint-Pierre-la-Cour

Everyone in the train was given a meal plate and a refund for the train ticket.

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/bretagne/2015/02/13/tgv-en-panne-entre-rennes-et-paris-trafic-devie-par-nantes-654757.html


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> Many SNCF regions publicly say that they are so unhappy with SNCF service and price that they would go immediately to competition if it was possible now.


Why isn't that possible now? Running contracts, obstruction by SNCF?


----------



## AlexNL

The French regions are required by law to procure services from SNCF. They have zero possibilities of running a public tender for their services, even if they'd want to. This leads to zero competition for SNCF and hence, zero pressure to improve either.

If the French law would be changed (which has to happen at some point in the future, given the EU's 4th Railway Package) I think that most TER services will be put out to tender and will be run by different operators in the future. In my opinion the most likely contesters are Arriva, Abellio, Veolia and National Express.


----------



## M-NL

Isn't competition already required by current European law? I can't imagine why other countries would already allow/require competition if they weren't required to do so by the EU.


----------



## sotonsi

M-NL said:


> Isn't competition already required by current European law?


Since when does anyone, except for the British and occassionally the Dutch, Germans, etc care what EU law says if they don't like it?


----------



## AlexNL

Right now the EU does not require rail services to be tendered, it's up to the member states to decide if they want to do so. This will change in the future, once the 4th railway package comes into full swing, but even then there will be cases where a member state can opt not to put services out to tender if they properly motivate it.

I expect that French regions will eventually be able to put their rail services out to tender if they so desire. They're very dissatisfied about incumbent operator SNCF and I think a different operator (such as Arriva) could easily make a business case that offers much more public transport to a region's inhibitants for the same bag of money.

France is one of the powerhouses behind the EU, just like Germany. This is why they can force the EU to adapt legislation to what they deem is best, irregardless of the good intentions behind the original proposal.

For example: the 4th railway package more or less forced public tendering of public transport contracts, making a direct award nearly impossible. But because of lobbying power from the French, the Belgians and some other countries the proposal was watered down and a direct award will remain possible (if properly motivated). The original 4th railway package also required a complete seperation of infrastructure manager from operators but this was retracted after the Germans and the Austrians protested, wanting to protect their holding structures.


----------



## KingNick

M-NL said:


> Isn't competition already required by current European law? I can't imagine why other countries would already allow/require competition if they weren't required to do so by the EU.


Only for long distances. Regional service can be awarded directly.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## Zero Gravity

Nexis said:


>


I just love how this guy films. He knows where to find perfect spots for shooting those zoomed in scenes where you see the whole train. Not just like in the generic videos standing on the platform and wobbling the camera around.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...aly-sign-lyon-–-turin-accord.html?channel=537
> 
> *France and Italy sign Lyon – Turin accord*
> Thursday, February 26, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _FRENCH president Mr François Hollande, French secretary of state for transport Mr Alain Vidalies and Italian infrastructure and transport minister Mr Maurizio Lupi signed an agreement to go ahead with a new €26bn railway linking Lyon and Turin during an international summit in Paris on February 24_
> 
> "We can now say the Lyon – Turin railway is not just in the pipeline, but has been launched," Hollande says. "It will take time to come to fruition but there are, as of today, no brakes on the project and no obstacles lying in the way of its completion."
> 
> This agreement follows the approval of the project by the Italian Interministerial Committee for Economic Planning (CIPE) on February 20, paving the way for an application for TEN-T funding from the European Union (EU). The French and Italian governments hope to secure up to 40% of the funding required for the project from EU sources
> 
> ...


----------



## Nexis




----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/lgv-est-phase-2-completed.html
> 
> *LGV Est Phase 2 completed*
> 31 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The last rail was welded on March 31, photo by Céline Keller_
> 
> FRANCE: On March 31 SNCF President Guillaume Pepy joined SNCF Réseau President Jacques Rapoport and other dignitaries as the last rail was welded to mark the completion of construction work on Phase 2 of LGV Est, the high speed line between Paris and Strasbourg. Work on Phase 2, covering the 106 km between Baudrecourt and Vendenheim, had begun in 2010.
> 
> Following further signalling work to enable control of the new route from Pagny-sur-Moselle, commissioning trials and staff training, Phase 2 is due to enter service on April 3 2016. This will enable the fastest Paris – Strasbourg journey time to be cut to 1 h 48 min, and that between Luxembourg and Strasbourg via Thionville and Metz to be reduced to 1 h 36 min
> 
> ...


----------



## Allainlloyd999ify

In brittany the LGV is the slowest LGV on the france?


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ There's no LGV in Brittany.


----------



## 437.001

Which will be the new travel times for Paris-Stuttgart and Paris-Munich?
These two routes are directly involved in the opening of this new section of the HSL, so I guess that passenger numbers will increase a bit more.
Not the Paris-Frankfurt (Main) route though, since it leaves the HSL right at Baudrecourt, so it won't get any benefit from the new section.

After this stretch opens, there will be the following HSL sections left to open:

-Tours-Bordeaux
-Le Mans-Rennes
-Nîmes-Montpellier


----------



## mcarling

437.001 said:


> Which will be the new travel times for Paris-Stuttgart and Paris-Munich?


The fastest trains between Strasbourg and Stuttgart are 1:17 (via Karlsruhe), so Paris - Stuttgart should be just over 3 hours.

I did not find any direct trains between Strasbourg and Munich, so Paris - Munich would be more difficult to estimate. I guess probably between 5:15 and 5:30 for the TGV/ICE trains, so an improvement of about 30 to 45 minutes.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## Suburbanist

Is Eurostar skipping on the train washing bill?


----------



## M-NL

Most passenger railroads are doing that. Sometimes with the exception of their most premier service, but that's purely window dressing.


----------



## Gusiluz

mcarling said:


> The fastest trains between Strasbourg and Stuttgart are 1:17 (via Karlsruhe), so Paris - Stuttgart should be just over 3 hours.
> 
> I did not find any direct trains between Strasbourg and Munich, so Paris - Munich would be more difficult to estimate. I guess probably between 5:15 and 5:30 for the TGV/ICE trains, so an improvement of about 30 to 45 minutes.


For Paris-Stuttgart I have noted that since the June 10, 2007 (POS) takes 3:45 (as now) and since April 3, 2016 it will take 3:10.

For Paris-Munich took 6:12 (now 6:09) and from 2016 it will take 5:40.


----------



## Nexis

Suburbanist said:


> Is Eurostar skipping on the train washing bill?


They probably only wash it a few times per yr...


----------



## Baron Hirsch

I guess it is a bad idea to paint your trains white if you do not intend to wash them constantly. German ICEs tend to have a brown layer over the white if yo see them from up close. What has been working better is the Turkish TCDD high-speed train sets, as they seem to wash more often (then again the trains are just a few years old).


----------



## hans280

Gusiluz said:


> For Paris-Stuttgart I have noted that since the June 10, 2007 (POS) takes 3:45 (as now) and since April 3, 2016 it will take 3:10.
> 
> For Paris-Munich took 6:12 (now 6:09) and from 2016 it will take 5:40.


OMG, the Germans are really in a class of their own. Paris-Strasbourg, distance: 408km, travel time: 1h50m. Strasbourg, distance: 107km, travel time: 1h20m. 

I grant you that these are linear distances, hence they do not take into account the "detour" via Karlsruhe. Nobody of course expects to see a tunnel underneath the northwestern Schwarzwald, but still.... it ain't exactly high-speed rail travel. hno:


----------



## mcarling

hans280 said:


> OMG, the Germans are really in a class of their own. Paris-Strasbourg, distance: 408km, travel time: 1h50m. Strasbourg, distance: 107km, travel time: 1h20m.
> 
> I grant you that these are linear distances, hence they do not take into account the "detour" via Karlsruhe. Nobody of course expects to see a tunnel underneath the northwestern Schwarzwald, but still.... it ain't exactly high-speed rail travel. hno:


An improvement of 32 to 35 minutes is nothing to complain about. Germany is also still building sections of the Karlsruhe - Basel high-speed line, so there will be further improvements.


----------



## Tower Dude

Oh that's still under construction?


----------



## Minato ku

Nexis said:


> They probably only wash it a few times per yr...


More, several times per month but a train can get dirt rapidly especially when if this train runs in a tunnel after open air sections.
The new livery of the Eurostar has less white.


----------



## CB31

*Eurostar debuts London to Marseille high-speed rail link*









© Philippe Huguen



> Eurostar on Friday began whisking passengers from London to Marseille in a journey that took just over six hours as the international rail company opened a permanent and direct route connecting Britain and southern France.
> 
> The new year-round transport service will see high-speed TGV trains race from the heart of London to the French cities of Lyon, Avignon and Marseille, the company announced.
> 
> Eurostar said travellers departing from St Pancras International would be able to reach Lyon in four-and-a-half hours, Avignon in just less than six hours, and the Mediterranean city of Marseille in six-and-a-half hours.
> 
> Lyon is considered to be the capital of French gastronomy, while Avignon attracts tens of thousands of tourists for its annual theatre festival.
> 
> Marseille, France’s second-largest city, is a historic Mediterranean port, long considered a gateway between continental Europe and much of the world.
> 
> “Brits have a long standing love affair with the south of France, and our new service brings the gastronomy, culture and art from the region closer to the UK,” Eurostar commercial director Nick Mercer said in a statement when the company announced the launch of its new rail link last year.
> 
> (...)


http://www.france24.com/en/20150501-eurostar-london-marseille-six-hour-opens-lyon-avignon


----------



## Rayancito

Regarding the Paris Lyon HSL, i will like to know the status of the study that RFF was suposed to make regarding the implementation of ERTMS in order to increase the line capacity.


----------



## donquichotedelmedina

*Collection of TGV "Réseau" around Paris*


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

Why TGV Pendulaire wasn't accept by SNCF?









http://trainsdumonde.chez-alice.fr/PENDULAIRE.htm

This trainset would be ideal for some TGV mixed services (LGV/conventional rail) to Nantes, Hendaye and Toulouse.


----------



## 33Hz

mcarling said:


> An improvement of 32 to 35 minutes is nothing to complain about. Germany is also still building sections of the Karlsruhe - Basel high-speed line, so there will be further improvements.


Not to mention the Stuttgart to Ulm high-speed line, which should shave off 25 more minutes en route to Munich.


----------



## Nexis




----------



## DingeZ

This summer I'm traveling to rural Lorraine (just to catch up my family) by TGV. The service to Épinal (an average sized town, pop: 35000) is excellent. It is fast, cheap when booked early, especially first class, but the connecting services are terrible. I was shocked to find out that the local service to Saint-Dié-des-Vosges only runs five times a day! I didn't think frequencies lower than every 2 hours would still exist in western Europe (except for the parliamentary services in the UK).


----------



## AlexNL

There are a lot of stations in France that see only a handful of trains a day. For example, Nurieux, to the northeast of Lyon. In total, there are ten departures a day. There are 5 buses, 3 TER trains, and... 2 TGV Lyrias! One to Paris in the morning, and one that returns in the evening. 

The logic of having a TGV serve a town with just over 1,000 inhibitants is beyond me.


----------



## Suburbanist

AlexNL said:


> The logic of having a TGV serve a town with just over 1,000 inhibitants is beyond me.


Park-and-Ride?


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> There are a lot of stations in France that see only a handful of trains a day. For example, Nurieux, to the northeast of Lyon. In total, there are ten departures a day. There are 5 buses, 3 TER trains, and... 2 TGV Lyrias! One to Paris in the morning, and one that returns in the evening.
> 
> The logic of having a TGV serve a town with just over 1,000 inhibitants is beyond me.


Just type "Oyonnax" on the Wiki and Google Maps and you'll see why TGVs call at Nurieux.


----------



## LtBk

The French train network isn't that good outside of TGV between Paris and other cities from what I read here and elsewhere.


----------



## flierfy

LtBk said:


> The French train network isn't that good outside of TGV between Paris and other cities from what I read here and elsewhere.


That is certainly not true. Rail services in and around larger conurbations in France are quick and frequent. I wonder where you come from that this level of service isn't good from your position.


----------



## sotonsi

While services in and around big conurbations are decent, rural lines (and many inter-urban routes), however, are rather twisty, slow and infrequent.

But the same is true in almost every country in the world! Other than the decent services in big conurbations, that is...


----------



## LtBk

flierfy said:


> That is certainly not true. Rail services in and around larger conurbations in France are quick and frequent. I wonder where you come from that this level of service isn't good from your position.


I was referring to their inter-city network, not their mass transit systems. I recently did some searches in Rail Europe of French cities such as Lille to Nantes to example. They involved transfers in Paris which added time and/or traveling on slower train lines even when on TGV. French cities except for Paris also lack suburban rail networks than most of their neighbors countries have, just regional trains. I'm not saying it's bad system, it's just not as impressive as you think it is.


----------



## hseugut

Probably because of the distances .... Spain, which is quite large too, has the same configuration. Belgium, Holland, England which are much smaller and denser populated countries probably have these suburban connections.


----------



## 437.001

^^
Spain also has non-Madrid suburban rail networks. That's because Spain's population is unevenly distributed over the country, with some rather dense urban areas next to vast very low-density ones. The population in France is more evenly distributed, although as you said, it hasn't th density of Britain, Germany or the Benelux.

It's just that France, outside Paris, lacks really big urban areas.
Only Nice, Marseille, Lyon and Lille come close to having a suburban rail network.


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> Even in Belgium, where the post office had dedicated trains and sorting centers with a rail connection inside the buildings, they abandoned that to move to road-based transport. They even abandoned their sorting centers to build new ones connected to the highways. A very short-sighted move, if you ask me...


They did the same in the Netherlands. Their argument was that the trains had to much delays, ignoring the fact that 9 out of 10 delays were caused by loading not being completed in time.

On the other hand: Trucks have the advantage where it comes to flexibility. Scheduling an extra train on a few minutes notice, even if a train path is available is out of the question.


----------



## DingeZ

winnipeg said:


> But on other lines with a great number of users, these last years, SNCF lauched the "clocking" so the trains leave at the same minute each hour for example...


Wait a minute, they don't have clock faced scheduling as a standard yet? In 2015? It was introduced in the Netherlands in 1970's! More than 40 years ago!


----------



## AlexNL

On a lot of lines, SNCF does indeed not yet operate a regular timetable. They just run trains (or buses) when they think it's needed.


----------



## Coccodrillo

And even when SNCF proposes something it defines a "regular interval timetable", it is not really that.

For instance, a regular timetable according to SBB or NS would look like that: 10.15 daily, 11.15 daily, 12.15 daily, 13.15 daily, 14.15 daily, 15.15 daily, ... (a train departs at the same minutes past each hour)

While according to SNCF would look like that: 10.15 daily, 11.11 daily except Saturday, 12.18 Monday-Friday, 13.05 Sundays only, 14.10 Monday-Saturday, 15.15 daily, ... (_if, and only if_, a train departs, then it leaves _around_ the same minutes past each hour)

:nuts: :nuts: :nuts:



MarcVD said:


> The problem is, with all sorts of alternatives to paper mail available, the volumes of mail that remain do not require anymore the capacity of a train...


Yes, however shipment of packages might increase because of the e-commerce.


----------



## AlexNL

The TGV Postal rolling stock is 30 years old and probably needs replacement, which is quite expensive. For the price of one TGV, you can run a lot of trucks.


----------



## M-NL

TGV Postal service will end by the end of this year. According to wikipedia the last run will actually be today. It will be replaced by swap bodies on regular trains.


----------



## Nexis

Shame , what will happen with the Postal TGV units?


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## Nexis




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## Nexis




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## AlexNL

Nexis said:


> Shame , what will happen with the Postal TGV units?


They will be scrapped as they are over 30 years old.


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## parcdesprinces

^^ Actually La Poste has announced recently that they'll try to find second-hand buyer(s) for those 5 TGV units. (SNCF maybe ? :dunno


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## Silly_Walks

Perhaps Morocco as they will have TGV soon? Must be cheaper to give it to them than have it scrapped, no?


----------



## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> The problem is last-mile connectivity (as always).
> 
> How do parcels and letters get to the station? Trucks are needed right? And transshipment takes time.


Quite a lot of post now goes by air freight, which has the same issue. 

I do wonder if part of the issue is filling it. How many trucks worth fit on the train? I have never seen a huge convoy of Royal Mail lorries on the motorway.


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## Olbrzym

Hi everybody! 
I' m looking information on freight train speed in France and some other countries (Germany, USA, Canada, India, China)... it's pity i can't find any info on national operators web-sites of the above countries... please, help me find info on freight train speed (average speed, service speed and freight delivery speed)


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## Coccodrillo

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ Actually La Poste has announced recently that they'll try to find second-hand buyer(s) for those 5 TGV units. (SNCF maybe ? :dunno


There are 3 and a half TGV La Poste sets, not 5. The half set is kept as a reserve, although apparently it was sometimes used alone, with a special bogie on one side (TGVs are articulated trains, so it is not easy to split and operate them separately).


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## Olbrzym

on web-site of SNCF i can't find a section devoted to company's statistics... no annual reports, balance sheets, info on trains measures... May be you know where is it?


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## AlexNL

SNCF has a section devoted to it, on their "Groupe SNCF" page.

Key figures: http://www.sncf.com/fr/finance/chiffres-cles
Recent financial info: http://www.sncf.com/fr/finance/a-la-une


----------



## flierfy

AlexNL said:


> On a lot of lines, SNCF does indeed not yet operate a regular timetable. They just run trains (or buses) when they think it's needed.


That's not too dissimilar to the operating strategy of JR East which doesn't run a interval time table on its Shinkansen either.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/07/07/civil-works-completed-on-tours-bordeaux-lgv/
> 
> *Civil works completed on Tours-Bordeaux LGV*
> 7 JUL, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contractor VINCI has completed the civils work on the 340-kilometre Tours-Bordeaux high-speed rail line ahead of schedule.
> 
> It has taken just 38 months for VINCI to finish the earthworks and civil engineering portion of the new South Europe Atlantic high-speed rail line. At the height of construction, more than 8,500 people worked on the project.
> 
> The line includes 24 viaducts and 500 other structures. Tracklaying is now underway at a rate of 650 metres of double-track rail a day
> 
> ...


----------



## Nexis




----------



## nanar

RZ height & transport said:


> I wonder why the train was running on the track on the right instead of the track on the left, which is standard in France.


Except in Alsace, which was under *german government - 1870 / 1918* during main railways construction. 
So the TGV, leaving the high speed line (where it runs left side), was just passing on right side tracks to go to old line


----------



## tgva325

RZ height & transport said:


> OMG, what's this?!
> I guess the train started to bow to the left, collapsed against the bridge and thus catapulting the rest of the train. The combination of speed and a bit of height made most of the cars fly over the canal. The motor car in the water isn't that much damaged on the front so I guess this must be the back of the train.
> I wonder why the train was running on the track on the right instead of the track on the left, which is standard in France. Is the security system on French high speed tracks build for this use?


The front power car was destroyed in the collision against the bridge.
I think that it was the source of the fire.

About the configuration of the train, in this kind of incident, having an articulated trainset don´t mean anything (crashing in a curve at around 350 km/h...). In all the derailments at high speed of TGV´s, in straight lines, nobody was killed and trains remained aligned because of their configuration. 

All LGV´s have conmutable tracks, so each track can be used as independent one track lines. 

Oh, by the way, in Alsace and Lorraine, trains run at right (like in Germany), and as this is near the end of the high speed line, I suppose that trains change sense in a "saut de mouton". In conventional main line, those are used to change the side of running without change tracks.


----------



## Suburbanist

I saw some other pictures with the bogies completely separated from the cars. I wonder how many G would a train going at 350km/h in that curve be subject to; and what is the design speed limit there.


----------



## nanar

This curve is for 160 km/h max speed.


----------



## hmmwv

Not all tests are planned to shoot for the fastest speed, a lot of tests are done to verify mundane things like vibration, power consumption, etc. So it's too early to say whether safety systems have been disabled. IMO I'd be surprised if they are, because no matter what are you testing, safety should remain the number one priority. Disable the system so a train can potentially go overspeed in a curve over a bridge is criminal negligence.


----------



## hammersklavier

hmmwv said:


> Not all tests are planned to shoot for the fastest speed, a lot of tests are done to verify mundane things like vibration, power consumption, etc. So it's too early to say whether safety systems have been disabled. IMO I'd be surprised if they are, because no matter what are you testing, safety should remain the number one priority. Disable the system so a train can potentially go overspeed in a curve over a bridge is criminal negligence.


I also highly doubt the driver was inexperienced or inattentive. Testing environments always feel different than commercial ones.

If it is driver error, it is likely a lack of "feel for the line". This is, after all, a brand-new rail line and it's doubtful anybody's run it enough times to have a feel for it yet. Overspeed is usually driver error ... if not, well that just makes the causes even more intriguing.


----------



## k6uelind

Rebasepoiss said:


> I, on the other hand, really hope that all the safety systems were turned off and it was a driver error. The allowed risk for tests is probably magnitudes higher than the allowed chance of an accident on a passenger service.
> 
> If it turns out that the systems were enabled and it was a system error, it would set back opening the line for possibly a very long time and be a concern for other high speed rail lines as well.


I strongly disagree with your opinion, as I think one should never wish for any person to be responsible for such accidents, especially in the context of mentioned self-interest of opening the line on time. Also, *hoping* that the safety systems were turned off sounds absolutely insane even in a test context.


----------



## MarcVD

hmmwv said:


> Disable the system so a train can potentially go overspeed in a curve over a bridge is criminal negligence.


Tests have to be conducted at a speed 10% higher than the design speed of
the line. So for those tests at least, overspeed prevention mechanisms have
to be disabled.

But of course, not all tests are done for speed testing reasons, and for most
other tests, safety systems can remain activated.

We do not know what the purpose of this specific circulation was, so it is
impossible to know whether safety systems were disabled or not. We do not
even know whether those systems are already functional : after all, the line is
expected to enter revenue service in 5 months only...


----------



## AlexNL

Sunfuns said:


> By the way which system would normally guarantee that a train doesn't overspeed in spots where LGV turns into a regular line? That Spanish line had nothing at all except a diligence of the driver?


In France, this is ensured by the TVM safety system. When a train is about to leave a Ligne à Grande Vitesse, it receives a braking curve which forces it to decelerate to the line speed of the connection. Once it's on a lignue classique, the "KVB" system takes over control. If the connecting track section is occupied, the TVM system will slow the train down even further so that it comes to a halt at the first signal.

In Spain the situation is different from a technical as well as a functional point of view. In the Santiago crash, the train was travelling on a high speed line which was protected with both ETCS and the Spanish ASFA-200 system. While ETCS is more modern, ASFA is installed as a fallback system in order for trains to run even if they are not fitted with ETCS. 

The ETCS section ended about 4 kilometers before the curve. Shortly before the curve, the high speed line joined a classic line for the route to Santiago - and this situation was supposed to be only temporary. I think that applying ETCS to the curve as well would have been to complex, as this would mean huge changes to the signalling infrastructure for that classic line.


So, when the train was approaching the curve it was no longer protected by ETCS. As 4 km should normally be enough for a train to decelerate from 200 km/h to 90 km/h, a tighter exit speed was probably not enforced by ETCS. That is, if the train was protected by ETCS at all, I have read some reports about the S/730 not having a functioning ETCS installation but I am unable to confirm this.

As the train was now in an ASFA only zone and there were no trains in the adjacent block, the signal showed a green aspect allowing the driver to proceed. The design for the ASFA system was never intended to apply speed restrictions, as the assumption is that the train driver is well-aware of the limitation of the infrastructure. 

ADIF has applied a workaround to prevent similar accidents from happening: they have placed a few ASFA beacons at safe braking distance from the curve, these beacons permanently emit a yellow aspect which forces the driver to slow down. This mitigates futre derailments at high speed in that curve.

Why hasn't that workaround been applied before? I am not sure, but if I have to take a shot: ever since the first train ran in Spain, the driver has had the responsibility not to overspeed. As this has gone well, the system designers probably did not take into account the risk of a driver overspeeding in this particular curve. Or if they did take the risk into account, it was asssessed to not be a major concern as it "has never happened before". And then Murphy came along...


----------



## telemaxx

k6uelind said:


> I strongly disagree with your opinion, as I think one should never wish for any person to be responsible for such accidents, especially in the context of mentioned self-interest of opening the line on time. Also, *hoping* that the safety systems were turned off sounds absolutely insane even in a test context.


I disagree with you. From a technical point of view you can only hope that it wasn't a system error because that would mean that something essential is wrong at least on this line or - even worse - in general. 

Since we learned that one part of the test runs is running at 10 % overspeed (which corresponds to 352 km/h) and we know that the train ran at that speed when it derailed, to me it seems quite logical that this test run was a test run at 10 % overspeed. This would mean that the safety systems ensuring vmax were switched off. This makes it quite probable that it was a human error that could only occur in this particular testing situation. And that it is the only positive thing in this accident, which is horrible for everybody involved.

Of course it sounds awkward to say you "hope" for a human error, but from a system and technical point of view (safety of railway systems, opening of the line) a safety system failure would have larger consequences.


----------



## MarcVD

telemaxx said:


> Since we learned that one part of the test runs is running at 10 % overspeed (which corresponds to 352 km/h) and we know that the train ran at that speed when it derailed


Do we, really ? Didn't the SNCF president say in an interview that we did not
yet know at which speed the train was travelling ?

btw, if the train collided with the bridge, not sure at all this one is still in good
shape... so the date foreseen for the first revenue service of the line might 
have to be reviewed. Specially if it happened a that speed.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

According to a news report from the Le Parisien, the train was traversing a transition zone between the high speed line and the classic line, where deceleration was to occur from 352km/h to 176km/h _before_ approaching the bridge traversing the Marne au Rhin Canal. Here is a schematic map of the area in question:
http://www.sncf.com/ressources/carte_large_v3.jpg


----------



## lsg97

[atomic] said:


> this is the Location in OSM
> looking at the skidmarks in the picture above they must have come from the west and then the train pretty much flew across the canal.
> What i find strange is that the derail must have happened where the curve begins which means crazy overspeening or something on the tracks..


In an article in our local newspaper (hat was probably copied in there from a larger news agency) they mentioned the train was travelling at around 350kph, which would definitely be "crazy" overspeeding given this turn is part of the LGV's intersection with the old mainline...


----------



## 33Hz

All this talk of signalling equipment being turned off for overspeed testing ignores the fact that the 430 in TVM430 refers to the maximum speed in km/h the system can operate at...

It is interesting that this accident happened at a likely boundary between ERTMS/TVM430 and the classic KVB system. There have been incompatibilities reported before.

Anyway, this is all complete speculation until we get some facts about the crash, hopefully soon.


----------



## telemaxx

MarcVD said:


> Do we, really ? Didn't the SNCF president say in an interview that we did not
> yet know at which speed the train was travelling ?
> 
> btw, if the train collided with the bridge, not sure at all this one is still in good
> shape... so the date foreseen for the first revenue service of the line might
> have to be reviewed. Specially if it happened a that speed.


Local media reported about that speed, I wouldn't say it is certain though. The SNCF president at least did say that no safety systems were active and that this couldn't occur in a regular train ride.


----------



## MarcVD

lsg97 said:


> In an article in our local newspaper (hat was probably copied in there from a larger news agency) they mentioned the train was travelling at around 350kph.


Which is certainly nothing we can trust, because journalists usually know zilch
about railways, and there was a communiqué published by SNCF a few days
ago, explaining that tests on the new line would start, at speeds up to 350.
The journalist probably copied that over, with no further thinking. There is
no way to know what speed it was at the time of the crash, before the
train recorders have been read.


----------



## MarcVD

33Hz said:


> All this talk of signalling equipment being turned off for overspeed testing ignores the fact that the 430 in TVM430 refers to the maximum speed in km/h the system can operate at...


Not at all. When SNCF asked to CSEE to develop a new signalling system,
they started from the existing TVM300 specs, and augmented the name
from TVM300 to TVM400. Then they developed several variants, TVM410,
420... up to 450. 430 was the variant SNCF decided to implement. It has nothing to do with speed.

And even if it was the case, the signal sent by the ground to the train indicates precisely the speed the train is allowed to run at. So maximum
320 km/h on this line, and much less - 160 km/h - at the place the accident
did happen. To allow a train to drive faster than that, the speed monitoring
system must be disabled.


----------



## Suburbanist

why hasn't RFF gone for full ERTM on its LGVs?


----------



## 33Hz

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL8N13B2W220151116?feedType=RSS&feedName=rbssEnergyNews

Train driver denies excessive speed.


----------



## 33Hz

MarcVD said:


> And even if it was the case, the signal sent by the ground to the train indicates precisely the speed the train is allowed to run at. So maximum
> 320 km/h on this line, and much less - 160 km/h - at the place the accident
> did happen. To allow a train to drive faster than that, the speed monitoring
> system must be disabled.


If this is the case, then how was the record Calais to Marseille run done on the live network?


----------



## Bbbut

telemaxx said:


> A test run is something different. It is an event with a lot of preparation. Only experienced conductors are chosen. Three people are present in the driver's cab.


I am afraid, 'test run mode' does not equal more professionalism.
See the infamous Lathen train collision for example.

Also, since you brought up airplanes, 'three experienced pilots' did not mean anything, when the perfectly functional Air France Flight 447 crashed into the ocean in one of the worst display of piloting in the history of flight.


----------



## titan_trains

telemaxx said:


> What I wanted to make clear was that the high speed rail system in Spain in that curve was not safe, whereas in France the high speed rail system is safe because they have continuous safety systems.


Stop this shit. The curve in Santiago belongs to the conventional line. As any conventional line in Spain the signalling system is based on ASFA and the speed control is exported to the driver. I may agree that ASFA system is not the latests trend in signalling and that it lacks serveral features, but if one can not rely on the driver then we should forbid all trams, all buses and other transport mean where the driver, pilot, or whorever human being plays a role.



telemaxx said:


> I think that the Spanish railways were wrong when they left the risk to brake in time in that curve to the conductor alone with no additional safety systems. This is for two reasons. First, commercial rides occur on a regular and frequent basis. Risk is probability (of failure) times consequence. Probability of failure increases if a lot of trains pass this curve. The conductor is alone, so the whole responsibility is on one person, who maybe is already at the end of his shift. Second, the consequences are also a lot higher with many more passengers on board.


As said before, let us close all tram lines worlwide, many commuter and regional lines, VFR flights, buses and the like.



telemaxx said:


> A test run is something different. It is an event with a lot of preparation. Only experienced conductors are chosen.


Rubbish! Are you suggesting that the commercial drivers are not experienced?


----------



## Gedeon

telemaxx said:


> I am sure you have to switch off certain safety systems when flying certain maneuvers.
> 
> What I wanted to make clear was that the high speed rail system in Spain in that curve was not safe, whereas in France the high speed rail system is safe because they have continuous safety systems.
> 
> I think that the Spanish railways were wrong when they left the risk to brake in time in that curve to the conductor alone with no additional safety systems. This is for two reasons. First, commercial rides occur on a regular and frequent basis. Risk is probability (of failure) times consequence. Probability of failure increases if a lot of trains pass this curve. The conductor is alone, so the whole responsibility is on one person, who maybe is already at the end of his shift. Second, the consequences are also a lot higher with many more passengers on board.
> 
> A test run is something different. It is an event with a lot of preparation. Only experienced conductors are chosen. Three people are present in the driver's cab. And I think (but I am not sure about this) that people in the cars also have some measurement devices that tell them where they are, what the vibrations are etc. So that the safety system of the line was switched off does not necessarily mean that they had no GPS or other measurement device whatsoever. The question is rather why nobody noticed anything. Was there anything wrong with the devices? Were they just distracted because they had 7 people in the driver's cab? We don't know yet, so for me it is too soon to say that further technical safety measures should be implemented for test rides. Especially as long as the risk of a human factor isn't reduced by not allowing non-expert people in the driver's cab etc.


I still think it's silly that nowadays a high-speed test is run with fail-safe safety systems disabled. Can they not be easily adjusted for 10% overspeed? This accident was an example of "don't need to do that, just disable it, was fine so far".

They overshot breaking point for 1 km going at 330 km/h. *That's 11 seconds!* Human error was a mattter of when, not if.


----------



## hmmwv

^^

This. It doesn't make sense to turn off the safety system even if they plan to run at 110% of commercial operation speed. All they have to do is reprogram the safety system so the threshold is 10% more. The safety system is still in place to prevent the train from going into that curve at more than 176km/h. All those are done by software so it should have minimum cost and time penalty. 

Also is it true that the curve isn't covered by ETCS? Unless there is some sort of technical reason behind it, this seems to me like a lapse in safety procedures and possibly safety culture within SNCF.


----------



## Gedeon

hmmwv said:


> ^^
> Also is it true that the curve isn't covered by ETCS? Unless there is some sort of technical reason behind it, this seems to me like a lapse in safety procedures and possibly safety culture within SNCF.


Where have you read that? I doubt that SNCF is as dumb as Renfe.


----------



## Rebasepoiss

k6uelind said:


> Whether the safety system was absent or just disabled or whether it was a test run or a commercial service does not change much in terms of the responsibility of the operator to preserve human life. They knew the risks but they thought it was acceptable. Maybe it was a right decision to not mitigate the risks. I believe it was a wrong decision.
> 
> I test industrial hardware and software systems for a living. Ensuring safety during testing is my top priority. I am sure this is a lesson SNCF will learn from. I am sad they did not learn from the mistakes of others.


I totally agree with you that serious mistakes were made in the test procedures. I don't know how difficult or easy it is to reprogram a 10% overspeed into the safety systems. Even if it couldn't have been done or it would've been too difficult, they should've, let's say, set the braking point in the test several kilometres early or indeed set up a more rudimentary warning system. The biggest problem on this line was the rapid decrease in speed from 300+ km/h to much less than 200 km/h.

My main point was that testing, especially if it includes doing something the system (railway, aircraft etc.) is not meant to do in normal operation includes a much higer risk than regular service. For example, speed tests on trains are often performed on railway sections that wouldn't allow such speeds in normal operation. Even the Estonian FLIRT trains were tested at around 175 km/h while the signalling only allows for 120 km/h. In Poland the Pendolino ED250 reached 293 km/h during tests, way above the allowed speed for trains in normal operation. You can be well assured that the regular safety systems don't work in such circumstances.


----------



## AlexNL

I see a lot of people saying "Couldn't they have just reprogrammed the safety system?", but I don't think anyone has looked at the technical implications that such a change entails. 

In the TVM-430 system, adding an additional speed step is not easy at all. Under ETCS it is supposedly easier to adjust the maximum permissible speed, but I am not aware if the ETCS system on the LGV Est Phase 2 has been commissioned yet and if the test train has received the correct encryption keys required for communication with the control system.

For now, let's focus on the TVM-430 system which is in use on nearly all high speed lines in France. Apart from France, TVM-430 is also used in the Channel Tunnel and on High Speed 1 in the UK. The TVM-300 system was developed in the 1970's, the succeeding TVM-430 system was developed in the 1980's. At that time, technology was not as far advanced as it is today and thus, the designers had to make some compromises. 

The TVM system works by encoding signals onto the tracks, which are then picked up by receivers on board the trains. These signals work on various frequencies and can transfer a lot of relevant information, but the precise detail is limited. As a consequence, the TVM system is not capable of telling the train "the maximum allowed speed on this section of track is 230 km/h".

Instead, the trackside equipment transmits to the train some identifying information about the kind of infrastructure the train is running on (the "network code") and it transmits a "speed code". The equipment onboard the train translates the combination of the network code and speed code into the maximum allowed speed at that time.

The "speed code" depends on the amount of unoccupied blocks in front of the train: the more blocks are free, the higher the allowed speed will be. However, not all infrastructure has the same maximum allowed speeds and this is where the network code comes into play: in the Channel Tunnel it will allow 160 km/h, on LGV Est it will allow 320, on the Belgian LGV 1 it will allow 300 km/h, and so on.

So, in order to have trains travelling at 360 km/h to be protected by TVM-430, the trackside equipment will have to be modified. A new network code will have to be introduced which is then emitted along with the rest of the speed information. But apart from that, the software in the train has to be updated as well. The new network code will have to be interpreted and used to calculate new accurate braking curves.

This is a lot fo software development work for a situation which will not occur in real life scenarios, as the commercial speed for trains is limited to 320 km/h - a speed which is already supported by TVM-430.


----------



## AlexNL

k6uelind said:


> I already said *additional* safety measures can be implemented! A simple smartphone alarm going off because of a GPS geofence would have saved the lives of 11 people! There are numerous other ways.


GPS equipment is used extensively during test runs, for this very reason. However, SNCF stated that too many people were in the cab, that the atmosphere was noisy and that the driver's view was partially blocked.

It's entirely possible that the driver missed the GPS alarm because of this, and only noticed that he had gone too far when spotting a "PK" sign (point kilomètre, positioning marker board).



> So, are you basically saying "It was a test run. The people on the train knew this and signed a paper. They died, but this can happen during testing. Case closed."?


It's their choice to participate in these tests. They are well aware that risks are involved and that the chance exists that they may get hurt - that's why they're trying things.

Those friends and family members should not have been on board, and their presence should be scrutinized. I'm speculating here, but if the driver's nephew or son was in the cab I am pretty sure that he wanted to show off a bit. "Look Gérard, this is the speedometer - as you see we're going 275 km/h now. And this is the phone that I use to contact the signaller with."



> I am confident that no safety systems are turned off while testing commercial airplanes. I would be surprised if I was wrong. Also, you do not want to compare two train accidents but you do compare testing an airplane to testing a train service? The training and discipline of commercial airplane pilots is from an entirely different class. And yet half of the airplane accidents are caused by human error.


When a new airplane is built and the prototype is being tested, this happens with flight safety systems disabled. The aim of the tests is to stress the plane to its limits, something which would be made impossible by these very safety systems.


----------



## Bbbut

GPS and or an odometer are pretty trivial solutions for a temporary substitute for a full train control system especially on a single new section.
It is really not that hard to let the train count the distance it traveled by itself and then brake automatically.
Like other have said already, 'testing mode' should not free you from your responsibility to provide passive safety.
'They signed a statement, they knew the risk', is not an acceptable excuse from a big railway organisation like SNCF.


----------



## AlexNL

And how do you guarantee that such a GPS-based system always works as it should and intervenes at the right location? How do you prevent test drivers from relying too much on such a system?

As much as I agree with you that SNCF has a responsibility to provide safety, it is a test run after all and the test crew knows they are taking risks. It's up to the driver(s) in the cab to take appropriate measures to mitigate these risks during test runs. 

Based on the publicly available information, not only were there way too much people in the cab (seven people, while two or three were expected), the driver also let it happen that part of his sight was blocked, the noisy atmosphere only distracting him further. I'm quite confident the driver as well as the backup drivers let themselves get distracted by the other people in the cab, causing them to miss critical position indicators.


----------



## Suburbanist

GPS doesn't work in long tunnels to begin with...


----------



## Gedeon

AlexNL said:


> So, in order to have trains travelling at 360 km/h to be protected by TVM-430, the trackside equipment will have to be modified. A new network code will have to be introduced which is then emitted along with the rest of the speed information. But apart from that, the software in the train has to be updated as well. The new network code will have to be interpreted and used to calculate new accurate braking curves.
> 
> This is a lot fo software development work for a situation which will not occur in real life scenarios, as the commercial speed for trains is limited to 320 km/h - a speed which is already supported by TVM-430.



Could the software on the train be adjusted to interpret beacons with 10% overspeed allowed? Fore example, if beacon sets 160 km/h limit, train software calculates breaking curves for 176 km/h? It's much easier to modify software on a single test train. And for 200 or so test runs (more test runs, bigger risk of human error), I think it's not that much trouble.


----------



## tgva325

k6uelind said:


> High speed railway section that suddenly terminates with a sharp curve
> No safety system
> Operator knows safety system not operational and decides that the risk of driver not being able to brake correctly is acceptable
> Driver is not able to brake correctly, train derails at high speed and people die


The "high speed railway section that suddenly terminates with a sharp curve" is of no problem if you have the speed control systems working, and operators not being distracted... in fact, he must be aware of that fact and STARTING TO BRAKE before the point needed.


----------



## tgva325

Bbbut said:


> I am afraid, 'test run mode' does not equal more professionalism.
> See the infamous Lathen train collision for example.


Oh, the Titanic of the maglev that "will never crash", and because of that the "tin" was not designed to passenger survival... it was the end of the Transrapid. At present the only test track is the very expensive white elephant at Shanghai.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

tgva325 said:


> Oh, the Titanic of the maglev that "will never crash", and because of that the "tin" was not designed to passenger survival... it was the end of the Transrapid. At present the only test track is the very expensive white elephant at Shanghai.


Most all HSR are made for collision avoidance not collision survival. The only one I know that is built for collision survival is the Acela which is built like a tank. Although I doubt people will survive when it hits a curve at 320Km and derails.


----------



## telemaxx

titan_trains said:


> Stop this shit. The curve in Santiago belongs to the conventional line. As any conventional line in Spain the signalling system is based on ASFA and the speed control is exported to the driver. I may agree that ASFA system is not the latests trend in signalling and that it lacks serveral features, but if one can not rely on the driver then we should forbid all trams, all buses and other transport mean where the driver, pilot, or whorever human being plays a role.


Are you maybe able to see a difference between the end of high speed line with 300 km/h and a tram line which usually doesn't go much faster than 50 km/h. That corresponds to a braking distance of approx. 3400 m vs. 100 m.


----------



## tgva325

SamuraiBlue said:


> Most all HSR are made for collision avoidance not collision survival. The only one I know that is built for collision survival is the Acela which is built like a tank. Although I doubt people will survive when it hits a curve at 320Km and derails.


The transrapid crashed at 162 km/h and ended with 23 deaths (most of them passengers...).
TGV derailed at 243 km/h, 11 deaths (and were not passengers).
And in other high speed derailments only light injuries.


----------



## tgva325

SamuraiBlue said:


> Most all HSR are made for collision avoidance not collision survival. The only one I know that is built for collision survival is the Acela which is built like a tank. Although I doubt people will survive when it hits a curve at 320Km and derails.


About crumple zones:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/lightweight-structures-meet-tougher-crashworthiness-standards.html

https://books.google.com.uy/books?id=UrAzRmMX0_EC&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=crumple+zones+TGV&source=bl&ots=QJOdbdh--g&sig=j35cRDfp7B4bwDuLq2WhwJ1zyGw&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7sJuO66PJAhUK5iYKHWUNDco4ChDoAQg8MAQ#v=onepage&q=crumple%20zones%20TGV&f=false

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/Resources/Documents/English%20AGV%20.pdf

From here: http://stp.diit.edu.ua/article/viewFile/20353/17961

"5. Crashworthiness Following recent trends in the auto industry, there is significant effort going into passive security of TGV train sets. Using new software for railroad crash simulation, called ’Pamcrash’, the TGV Duplex structure was optimized on a supercomputer. The trailers have extremely rigid bodies with deformable, energy absorbing crush zones at the ends. The coupling between the power cars and trailers has also been reviewed; it still uses screwlink couplers with buffers, but the buffers have structural fuses built in so that they fold away under crash loads. The car ends have been reviewed to prevent the power car from climbing onto the first trailer. For multiple unit operation, the Scharfenberg couplers in the noses of the train set have been designed to collapse under heavy loads, so that two power cars coupled nose to nose can make firm contact with each other to prevent telescoping. This is in addition to the energy absorbing ram shield already mounted in the nose of all TGV power cars to defend the cab cubicle." 

About FRA standards:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a98e0b5c-d768-11e2-8279-00144feab7de.html#axzz3sDSFxqE6


----------



## sotonsi

SamuraiBlue is just a M**l** troll - appearing in threads on High Speed Rail whenever someone mentions the 'm-word' to defend that tech. It backfires as it is clear that the defence is coming from a place of near-total ignorance about HSR.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

tgva325 said:


> The transrapid crashed at 162 km/h and ended with 23 deaths (most of them passengers...).
> TGV derailed at 243 km/h, 11 deaths (and were not passengers).
> And in other high speed derailments only light injuries.


I dare you, try ramming any HSR train into a stationary cart at 162Km/h and see how it turns out. In fact lets see you take a seat in the front car.

You would be a fool if you think you can survive in a crash at that speed.

Collision survival is trivial compared to collision avoidance.

Now let's see how you react strapped in a car heading into a barrier at 162Km/h.:nuts:


----------



## SiMclaren

Gedeon said:


> I still think it's silly that nowadays a high-speed test is run with fail-safe safety systems disabled. Can they not be easily adjusted for 10% overspeed? This accident was an example of "don't need to do that, just disable it, was fine so far".


Beyond from what AlexNL posted before, the objective of a safety system is that NEVER, in NO POSSIBLE OCCASION, no matter WHO the driver is a personal friend, no matter what hurry everybody is, no matter whether there is a failure or even if someone got personally to the signal to change the code, the train NEVER will be able to over-speed on a commercial operation.

Its hard-coded on the signal, on the train and on the track to not allow it, and won't unless you remove everything and reinstall it.

This is why its called a SAFETY system.

But since it was a test, the objective is exactly to go against it, to be unsafe and test the limits. Unfortunately they gone BEYOND the limits, but this is why its a test, to know what can go wrong.

All that can be done is to take more care (no parents or unauthorized personal in the cab) next time.


----------



## 33Hz

> All that can be done is to take more care (no parents or unauthorized personal in the cab) next time.


This is nonsense. Clearly it is not "all that can be done". It is perfectly possible to install or reprogramme the signalling to allow +10%. Yes it will take time. Yes it will take money. But these tests take a lot of time and a lot of money. Destroying a trainset cost a lot of money. The damage to SNCF's and the TGV's reputation will cost a lot of money. The compensation to the families of the dead on the train will cost a lot of money.

Too many apologists on here.


----------



## Gedeon

Testing the limits? Nonsense. You say it as if they were trying to determine at what speed the train would tip over. 10% overspeed is well below the limits.

Now, going 574,8 km/h was a bit crazy and a one-time thing. This was a normal testing procedure that gets repeated over and over.


----------



## mcarling

Gedeon said:


> Now, going 574,8 km/h was a bit crazy and a one-time thing.


Wasn't the train highly instrumented for that 574.8 km/h test so that they could improve the design of future generations of TGV?


----------



## tgva325

mcarling said:


> Wasn't the train highly instrumented for that 574.8 km/h test so that they could improve the design of future generations of TGV?


Yes.
Like all the high speed records.
But the commercial speeds over 360-400 km/h are highly unprofitable (conventional rail or maglev) because the air friction increase and the energy consumption go up a lot.


----------



## mcarling

tgva325 said:


> But the commercial speeds over 360-400 km/h are highly unprofitable (conventional rail or maglev) because the air friction increase and the energy consumption go up a lot.


That's why Elon Musk wants to put very high-speed rail in a tunnel with reduced air pressure. The train would be internally pressurized like a jet aircraft. The tunnel pressure would be kept at a survivable level in case a train were to experience a pressurization failure. Presumably oxygen mask would drop, just like in an airliner.


----------



## sotonsi

By tunnel you mean elevated tube that is easily damaged and slightest movements/damage to that tube would cause fatal crashes...

Elon Musk's idea is more full of holes than a sponge.

Pneumatic/Vacuum railways were successfully trialled, but there's several good reasons why they only went as far as attractions at big exhibitions of science, etc and stopped being made about 100 years ago.


----------



## tgva325

sotonsi said:


> Elon Musk's idea is more full of holes than a sponge.
> 
> Pneumatic/Vacuum railways were successfully trialled, but there's several good reasons why they only went as far as attractions at big exhibitions of science, etc and stopped being made about 100 years ago.


:applause::applause::applause:


----------



## mcarling

sotonsi said:


> By tunnel you mean elevated tube that is easily damaged and slightest movements/damage to that tube would cause fatal crashes...


A tunnel would work better for the reasons you listed. That's why I wrote tunnel, but the principle is the same. It doesn't make sense to go faster than about 400 km/h without reducing the air pressure. Of course, with current TBM technology, it would be prohibitively expensive, but TBM costs continue to drop.


----------



## sotonsi

mcarling said:


> A tunnel would work better for the reasons you listed.


Indeed, but you credited Elon Musk's plan with sensibly putting the hyperloop in a tunnel, and the folly of his actual plan needed to be exposed!


----------



## tgva325

Hyperloop must not be considered in this forum. It is smoke


----------



## Nexis




----------



## 33Hz

Has there been any further news on the LGV Est crash and when the line will open to passengers as a result?


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ed-on-french-high-speed-line.html?channel=531
> 
> *Tracklaying completed on French high-speed line*
> Wednesday, January 06, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _A milestone was reached in the construction of France's Sud-Europ Atlantique (SEA) high-speed line at the end of December, when the final section of rail was welded north of the Dordogne Viaduct in Gironde, a year after tracklaying began in the department of Charente_
> 
> Ballasting and electrification work continues and this phase of the project is due to be completed by the middle of the year, by which time contractors will have installed 1400km of rail, 1.1 million sleepers, three million tonnes of ballast, and 14,000 catenary masts
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...nch-tgv-ticket-barrier-trial.html?channel=524
> 
> *SNCF to launch TGV ticket barrier trial*
> Friday, January 08, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _FRENCH National Railways (SNCF) will introduce ticket barriers at two major stations from January 11 as part of a three-month trial seeking to address the issue of fare evasion, which costs SNCF around €300m a year in lost revenue_
> 
> Four barriers will be installed on platforms used by TGVs at Paris Montparnasse and Marseilles Saint-Charles stations and the trial will evaluate the operation of equipment from four suppliers: Thales, IER, Scheidt & Bachmann, and Xerox. One of these suppliers will be selected to provide technology for the rollout of ticket barriers at other TGV stations by 2017
> 
> ...


----------



## Wilhem275

Fare evasion on long distance trains? It would mean little or no checks on board...


----------



## Gedeon

Yeah, that's pretty weird.


----------



## winnipeg

In fact the fare evasion is not that important on TGVs (even if SNCF evaluate it to around 200 millions € per year, but probably a very overexagerated evaluation), but it takes place in a context where many people are talking about the safety in our trains as a problem (during regional elections, 1 month ago, some of the candidates wanted to enhance the security patrols inside french trains (regional trains in instance)), and it takes place in this context of the terrorist attacks and Vigipirate plan... So probably SNCF got also a lot of political pressure about this and with possibility to lower the fraud, that's what pushed them to try this I think...


----------



## AlexNL

Fare evasion mostly takes place on short-distance routes, because the chances of getting caught are pretty low. On long distance traffic, where you're spending 1.5 hrs in the same train without stopping, you are almost certain to get caught and get issued with a penalty fare.

Re. fare evasion: how is this dealt with in France? What happens if you get caught without a ticket?


----------



## Minato ku

You have to pay a fine (the price of the journey and more) but I don't know what happen if you can't pay immediately.
I believe that they take your identity and the fine the fine is higher.

I don't know what happen because I have never took the train without paying.
One time, I missed my train and I did take an other one.
I explained my situation to a controller before taking the train, I just had to pay the price of booking (it was a TGV, booking the seat is mandatory).


Wilhem275 said:


> Fare evasion on long distance trains? It would mean little or no checks on board...


I can't count the number of time I took the TGV and I was not checked, even after the terrorist attacks and I usually travel on first class where you may expect to have more control.


----------



## winnipeg

In fact the situation is desastrous, for example according to this article (in french : http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/201...-des-amendes-pour-lutter-contre-la-fraude.php ), only 11% of fines were actualy paid because in fact SNCF inspectors (in France we say "contrôleur", but I don't know which is the right english translation for that...) were not able to check the adresses of peoples who were caught on trains and the fine was not paid... (And it was true, confirmed by some people in my family who are working at SNCF)...

Hopefuly they were talking about a law project where the SNCF and some other transportation organism (RATP, Eurolines) could get the exact contact information about the people who are frauding and make them pay the fine... As there is no news about this law, I guess that it is still in talks...
But I hope that they will be able to pass the law because the situation where people can almost freely travel without paying anything is unacceptable, and the people who are paying for every train they take are also paying for these frauds.... hno:


Edit : I just checked, and it is included in the new law : http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/ta/ta0651.asp

_"I. – Après l’article L. 2241-2 du code des transports il est inséré un article L. 2241-2-1 ainsi rédigé :

« Art. L. 2241-2-1. – Pour fiabiliser les données relatives à l’identité et à l’adresse du contrevenant recueillies lors de la constatation des contraventions mentionnées à l’article 529-3 du code de procédure pénale, les agents des exploitants des systèmes de transport ferroviaire ou guidé chargés du recouvrement des indemnités forfaitaires et des frais de dossier mentionnés à l’article 529-4 du même code peuvent obtenir communication auprès des administrations publiques et des organismes de sécurité sociale, sans que le secret professionnel puisse leur être opposé, des renseignements, strictement limités aux nom, prénoms, date et lieu de naissance des contrevenants, ainsi qu’à l’adresse de leur domicile.

« Les renseignements transmis ne peuvent être utilisés que dans le cadre de la procédure transactionnelle prévue au même article 529-4, en vue d’inviter le contrevenant à s’acquitter du versement de l’indemnité forfaitaire et des frais de dossier dans le délai imparti. Ils ne peuvent être communiqués à des tiers, hormis à l’autorité judiciaire, qui doit être informée au cas où une usurpation d’identité est avérée par ces échanges d’information.

« Les demandes des exploitants et les renseignements communiqués en réponse sont transmis par l’intermédiaire d’une personne morale unique, commune aux exploitants. Les agents de cette personne morale unique susceptibles d’avoir accès à ces renseignements, dont le nombre maximal est fixé par arrêté conjoint du ministre de l’intérieur et des ministres chargés des finances et des transports, sont spécialement désignés et habilités à cet effet par l’exploitant. Ils sont tenus au secret professionnel sous les peines prévues à l’article 226-13 du code pénal."_

So now hey have the right to ask for exact informations about people who frauded to french tax autorities or social security for example... :yes:


----------



## doc7austin

Detailed Video report from my recent journey on the TGV High Speed Train
between Barcelona Sants and Paris Gare de Lyon.
We have travelled in First Class.

Barcelona Sants: 





















Inside TGV Duplex First Class





















LGV Perpignan–Figueres, still in Spain:












Perpignan:












Between Perpignan and Narbonne:
















































Inside an older First Class car:




















Beziers:












Port near Sete:












LGV Rhin-Rhône:





















LGV Sud-Est:












Paris Gare de Lyon:





























The Video:








If the video does not load, here is the direct link:

http://youtu.be/ydpbk-qmn08



Enjoy!


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ These seats are comfortable, however, they look worn out even if the trains are not that old. They should add some cover layer to them, to avoid this effect.


----------



## Lepicard

*New law...a joke*



winnipeg said:


> In fact the situation is desastrous, for example according to this article (in french : only 11% of fines were actualy paid because in fact SNCF inspectors (in France we say "contrôleur", but I don't know which is the right english translation for that...) were not able to check the adresses of peoples who were caught on trains and the fine was not paid... (And it was true, confirmed by some people in my family who are working at SNCF)...
> 
> Edit : I just checked, and it is included in the new law :
> 
> _"I. – Après l’article L. 2241-2 du code des transports il est inséré un article L. 2241-2-1 ainsi rédigé :
> 
> « Art. L. 2241-2-1. – Pour fiabiliser les données relatives à l’identité et à l’adresse du contrevenant recueillies lors de la constatation des contraventions mentionnées à l’article 529-3 du code de procédure pénale, les agents des exploitants des systèmes de transport ferroviaire ou guidé chargés du recouvrement des indemnités forfaitaires et des frais de dossier mentionnés à l’article 529-4 du même code peuvent obtenir communication auprès des administrations publiques et des organismes de sécurité sociale, sans que le secret professionnel puisse leur être opposé, des renseignements, strictement limités aux nom, prénoms, date et lieu de naissance des contrevenants, ainsi qu’à l’adresse de leur domicile.
> 
> « Les renseignements transmis ne peuvent être utilisés que dans le cadre de la procédure transactionnelle prévue au même article 529-4, en vue d’inviter le contrevenant à s’acquitter du versement de l’indemnité forfaitaire et des frais de dossier dans le délai imparti. Ils ne peuvent être communiqués à des tiers, hormis à l’autorité judiciaire, qui doit être informée au cas où une usurpation d’identité est avérée par ces échanges d’information.
> 
> « Les demandes des exploitants et les renseignements communiqués en réponse sont transmis par l’intermédiaire d’une personne morale unique, commune aux exploitants. Les agents de cette personne morale unique susceptibles d’avoir accès à ces renseignements, dont le nombre maximal est fixé par arrêté conjoint du ministre de l’intérieur et des ministres chargés des finances et des transports, sont spécialement désignés et habilités à cet effet par l’exploitant. Ils sont tenus au secret professionnel sous les peines prévues à l’article 226-13 du code pénal."_
> 
> So now hey have the right to ask for exact informations about people who frauded to french tax autorities or social security for example... :yes:


This law is just a joke. The government knows that it will have absolutely no result. Why ? Frauders are, for more than 90% of them, as I have unfortunately witnessed too many times, illegal immigrants who don't bear any official documents - no passport, no identity card, no asylum seeker registration act, absolutely nothing. 

The SNCF inspector asks a name, they give any false name and address they have in mind, and the inspector gives a receipt for the fine to be recoverred under this name and address. Of course, with false name and false address, this new law will just produce... no result.

This is typically socialist politics. They just pretend to do something, but their aim is overall nothing to be changed. Anyway it is intended to give to the public opinion a message that they are acting. In french, we say 'gesticulation' ! By 2017, we shall have finished for many decades with socialists and this kind of politics and public management.


----------



## hans280

Lepicard said:


> This law is just a joke. The government knows that it will have absolutely no result. Why ? Frauders are, for more than 90% of them, as I have unfortunately witnessed too many times, illegal immigrants who don't bear any official documents - no passport, no identity card, no asylum seeker registration act, absolutely nothing.


Yes, but as a foreigner in France I sense also another issue: the class distinctions are crass and the disfavoured folks are seething. So, the ruling classes let people get away with cheating "a bit". 

When I was a student in London the major tube stations had a couple of big beefy guards employed to prevent anyone from jumping the barriers. It must have saved a tonne of money. But in Paris we don't do it. Why? 

When I visit Switzerland they have police patrolling the stations to prevent begging and vagancy. It makes the stations so much safer. But in Paris we don't do it. Why? 

When I ask the question I'm often told that, "on ne peut pas criminaliser la pauvreté". (We cannot criminalise poverty.) I assume that the half-hearted efforts to stop immigrants, paupers and the homeless from cheating in the trains are inspired by similar thinking.


----------



## winnipeg

Lepicard said:


> This law is just a joke. The government knows that it will have absolutely no result. Why ? Frauders are, for more than 90% of them, as I have unfortunately witnessed too many times, illegal immigrants who don't bear any official documents - no passport, no identity card, no asylum seeker registration act, absolutely nothing.
> 
> The SNCF inspector asks a name, they give any false name and address they have in mind, and the inspector gives a receipt for the fine to be recoverred under this name and address. Of course, with false name and false address, this new law will just produce... no result.
> 
> This is typically socialist politics. They just pretend to do something, but their aim is overall nothing to be changed. Anyway it is intended to give to the public opinion a message that they are acting. In french, we say 'gesticulation' ! By 2017, we shall have finished for many decades with socialists and this kind of politics and public management.


Trust me, most of the frauders in France are french (born in France especialy), I guess that illegal migrants are a very small small fraction of it...

Yes, you're probably right, it will probably not be enought... hno:

:lol: :lol: What a funny joke!!! :lol: 

What does that have to do with the political position of the government? You should just look at the law, if it has been lacking from the law since then, it's probably also because previous governments (especialy from right, do you remember who was president and prime minister during 2007-2012 for example?), they were not worried about it... hno:

And yes, you're right, but you should open a bit more your eyes and see that this is not limited to socialist, you can say that about our the french politicians!! hno:

2017 :lol: I'm feared about who will be elected, you shouldn't expect anything better comming from right or extrems, all of them are worthless pure politicians. hno:


----------



## doc7austin

> Trust me, most of the frauders in France are french *(born in France especialy)*, I guess that illegal migrants are a very small small fraction of it...


If a child is born in France, it does NOT automatically acquire French citizen. The French nationality law is a bit different from the law in the US.
Therefore, someone born in France could be an illegal migrant.


----------



## sotonsi

doc7austin said:


> If a child is born in France, it does NOT automatically acquire French citizen. The French nationality law is a bit different from the law in the US.


Winnepeg was (quite clearly - even if you aren't competent in English) saying that not only are they french, but they were born in France as well.

Winnipeg's point is that, rather than being immigrants who became french at a later date (or aren't french even when resident - legal or otherwise), it's those who are have been french their whole life that make up most of the 'frauders'.


----------



## Wilhem275

And, anyway, I don't understand all this focus on immigrants. If a law is broken the damage is the same, no matter who is breaking it. I can erase all immigrants, but the loophole is still there...

From what I understand, the problem is people who has nothing to lose, so is able to play chicken with the risk of legal troubles (giving false data for a fine).
But is this a sensible problem on long distance trains?


----------



## Minato ku

doc7austin said:


> If a child is born in France, it does NOT automatically acquire French citizen. The French nationality law is a bit different from the law in the US.
> Therefore, someone born in France could be an illegal migrant.


Someone born in France can't be an illegal migrant.
He can't be an immigrant because by French law an immigrant is somebody who was born outside France and did not have the French nationality at birth.

Someone born in France can be a foreign citizen if both of his parents are foreigners but he will be granted the French nationality automatically at 18 if he lived at least 5 years in France since he was 11.
He can get French citizenship earlier if he requests.
________________________________________________

*Ticket barriers trial at Montparnasse*
They try two types of turnstiles


----------



## doc7austin

> Someone born in France can't be an illegal migrant.


Of course:
- born in France to two non-French parents
- while still a baby the parents moved back to their home country (deportation or at free will)
- Kid comes back to France via an illegal route; he wont enjoy this quoted 11/18 rule if he doesnt have a legal residence permit


----------



## clickgr

Is there any info regarding the status of the LGV Rhin-Rhône Sud? Are there any construction works on going? When is it going to put in service?


----------



## Minato ku

^^ It is on standby.


----------



## clickgr

Thanks. I guess that means no works so far. Do we know when ever completed what will be the travel time between Basel and Barcelona on TGV?


----------



## winnipeg

Yes, nothing done yet, not even a complete feasibility study, for now it is in "hold", and it is maybe awaiting a strong political commitment. For now, the focus is on the phase 2 of the LGV Rhin-Rhône east.

In my opinion, for the other portions (West and South), it will probably takes years, maybe decades to build them, for the simple reason that we (France) don't have as much money to spend as before, there is for now a countless number of big infrastructures projects (I'm not only talking about railway) that have been put in hold during the last years, and some of them have even been far postponed (for example 2030-2050...). :no:

Basel-Barcelona will probably be something like 7h30-8h without counting the probable connecting trains.... so on such big distances, flights have still a great future, and with Basel you are not to complain  You have 2/3 returns flights per day with Easyjet and I just checked, it's only 50€ the flight with return, in march.... So, unfortunatly (or not, I don't know), TGV as we know it now and on such big distances, it will never be really interresting compared to lowcost flights... :no:


----------



## MarcVD

If I remember well, on the LGV south-west (Bordeaux) line, SNCF plans to 
have something between 16 and 20 trains per hour, per direction. Even with 
that, the companies that financed the line (it's a PPP) complain that they won't 
recover their costs. In those conditions, many of the projected LGVs in France, 
including the west and south branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône, are not 
economically profitable, and are probably doomed. At the exception of some 
short stretches, we might very well be at the end of the TGV network 
development in France... Time to think back to the classical network, and how 
to use more efficiently and at higher speeds.


----------



## hans280

winnipeg said:


> Yes, nothing done yet, not even a complete feasibility study, for now it is in "hold", and it is maybe awaiting a strong political commitment. For now, the focus is on the phase 2 of the LGV Rhin-Rhône east.


Yeah, I agree that's not very ambitious. We're basically speaking of connecting the existing stretch of HS-track with Dijon in the west and Mulhouse in the east. Having said that, the impressive ongoing construction activity (three or four projects at the same time) was formally motivated as a temporary measure to keep the economy going during the financial crisis. If the government does not want to ridicule itself there must come a quiet period afterward.


----------



## clickgr

winnipeg said:


> Yes, nothing done yet, not even a complete feasibility study, for now it is in "hold", and it is maybe awaiting a strong political commitment. For now, the focus is on the phase 2 of the LGV Rhin-Rhône east.
> 
> In my opinion, for the other portions (West and South), it will probably takes years, maybe decades to build them, for the simple reason that we (France) don't have as much money to spend as before, there is for now a countless number of big infrastructures projects (I'm not only talking about railway) that have been put in hold during the last years, and some of them have even been far postponed (for example 2030-2050...). :no:
> 
> Basel-Barcelona will probably be something like 7h30-8h without counting the probable connecting trains.... so on such big distances, flights have still a great future, and with Basel you are not to complain  You have 2/3 returns flights per day with Easyjet and I just checked, it's only 50€ the flight with return, in march.... So, unfortunatly (or not, I don't know), TGV as we know it now and on such big distances, it will never be really interresting compared to lowcost flights... :no:



However Paris-Barcelona is currently not that long, a bit more than 6 hours and when the section Nimes-Perpignan will be finished the total time will drop below 6 hours. This is fairly competitive to the airplane in many ways and I was hopping that something similar will happen to Basel-Barcelona route as well.

Maybe for someone who travels alone directly from Basel to Barcelona airplane is still a better option, but there are many like me who can use the same route but without having as starting point Basel or as a final destination Barcelona. 

I very often travel with family from Friedrichshafen in Germany to Zaragoza in Spain. Even with using the airplane, normally flying Zurich-Barcelona or Munich-Barcelona/Madrid or Stuttgart-Barcelona, still the total journey lasts more than 10 hours involving trains, metro, buses, car driving, ferries on Bodensee, waiting times in the airports etc. and traveling with kinds and luggage with all these changes is exhausting. A train route Friedrichshafen-Zaragoza with just two changes, one in Basel and one in Barcelona involving two high speed trains Basel-Barcelona and Barcelona-Zaragoza in my case will be preferable over the plane, even with total journey time 10-11 hours and maybe also cheaper since train companies make good deals for family tickets, while with airplane you need to pay the full ticket for each member family plus you need to pay for the rest of the transportation means. Not to mention that kids feel much more free in the train compared to the narrow seats of the airplane.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Just a little corection:



MarcVD said:


> If I remember well, on the LGV south-west (Bordeaux) line, SNCF plans to have something between 16 and 20 trains per *day*, per direction.


It's per day, not per hour.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

clickgr said:


> A train route Friedrichshafen-Zaragoza with just two changes, one in Basel and one in Barcelona involving two high speed trains Basel-Barcelona and Barcelona-Zaragoza in my case will be preferable over the plane, even with total journey time 10-11 hours


How about a single HSR train Basel-Zaragoza? On a train going to Madrid or Malaga, getting off at Zaragoza?


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## Nexis

*High speed TGV, the new livery of Eurostar on France*


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## 33Hz

Just passed 3 TGV PSE sets at Culoz clearly waiting to be scrapped and covered in graffiti.

A sad fate for such pioneering vehicles...


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## M-NL

They were built between 1979 and 1985. Presumably these are older sets, so they're presumably over 35 years old. In that time they will probably have racked up a mileage even a regular intercity train set will not reach in a hundred years.


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## 1772

I'm trying to find information on the new TGV route that is supposed to be constructed between Marsielle and Nice. 
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/01/france-approves-route-for-marseille-nice-tgv/
I can't find anything about it other than that link. 

The route should be Marsielle - Toulon - Hyere - St Maxime - Frejus - Cannes - Nice
It would connect eastern Cote d'Azur (which today is pretty isolated) and it would help the overcongested roads.


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## hammersklavier

M-NL said:


> They were built between 1979 and 1985. Presumably these are older sets, so they're presumably over 35 years old. In that time they will probably have racked up a mileage even a regular intercity train set will not reach in a hundred years.


Agreed, but given the pioneering nature of the sets, why wouldn't SNCF donate them to railroad museums around the world? Think of the tax writeoffs!


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## Erwindg

1772 said:


> I'm trying to find information on the new TGV route that is supposed to be constructed between Marsielle and Nice.
> http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/01/france-approves-route-for-marseille-nice-tgv/
> I can't find anything about it other than that link.


Some links that may be interesting:

http://www.lignenouvelle-provencecotedazur.fr/

http://www.lignenouvelle-provencecotedazur.fr/sites/lgvpaca.fr/files/bdf_dossier_saisine_ln_170815.pdf


----------



## 1772

Erwindg said:


> Some links that may be interesting:
> 
> http://www.lignenouvelle-provencecotedazur.fr/
> 
> http://www.lignenouvelle-provencecotedazur.fr/sites/lgvpaca.fr/files/bdf_dossier_saisine_ln_170815.pdf


Ah thanks! 
Looks pretty good except that they skip past Grimaud, St. Maxime and Frejus. Thats a shame.


----------



## Sesto Elemento

Brisavoine:



Brisavoine said:


> I saw this in the thread about Spain's high speed rail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These figures are much lower than those found on Wikipedia and published by the Spanish government, which claims more than 3,000 km of high-speed rail lines in Spain. I suppose the 3,000+ km figure includes lots of non-high-speed lines used by high-speed trains (like Zaragoza-Huelva), in order to artificially boost their figures and boast.
> 
> Even this figure of 2.623 km includes lots of sections where speed is lower than 240 km/h, which wouldn't qualify as high-speed in France. For example the current Tours-Bordeaux line is used by TGVs which ride at 220 km/h, and nobody considers that high-speed in France, and it's not included in the total mileage of the high-speed lines in France.
> 
> So I wonder whether these comparisons between France and Spain are not totally apples and oranges...
> 
> If only 2.205 km of lines in Spain are able to carry trains riding at more than 240 km/h, then it looks like France will have a larger high-speed railway network than Spain by the middle of next year. Currently there are 2.037 km of high-speed lines in France. 106 km of new line will open this year, 182 km in the Spring of next year, and 302 km in the Summer of next year (all double-track railway lines; it's crazy that Spain builds single-track high-speed lines! :nuts.
> 
> So that means by the middle of next year, France should have 2.627 km of high-speed lines, more than Spain even if Spain manages to open a few sections like Murcia in the meantime (but is Murcia a real high-speed line or a line partly or entirely under 240 km/h? I have doubts now).
> 
> These stats are interesting because they show you have to look in detail at figures and not trust boastful statements made by governments. For example the French stats don't count the non-high-speed sections of the new high-speed lines (the new Tours-Bordeaux line is listed as a 302 km high-speed line, but in reality that's only the length of the high-speed section of the line, i.e. the section where trains will ride at more than 300 km/h, and it does not include 40 km of sections which will link the line to the existing network and on which TGVs will ride at less than 300 km/h), whereas I see Spain includes them.


----------



## Tyger-Wyger

33Hz said:


> Just passed 3 TGV PSE sets at Culoz clearly waiting to be scrapped and covered in graffiti.
> 
> A sad fate for such pioneering vehicles...


.
.
.


A lot of these sets have been given another overhaul and are still working today. Sets in at least the 80 series of numbers are working the Paris-Lille hourly service but one of the first class coaches has become a second class coach to add more seats. Of course these are later sets but they are still from the first batch.


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## mrsmartman

https://www.flickr.com/photos/marsupilami92/5943743172


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## drezdinski

This is the Atlantique series dating back from 1990-1991. 26 years on the track and still rolling.


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## nossiano

I hope that SNCF will replace these trainsets with new AGVs ^^^^


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## 8166UY

Why would they? They don't look THAT dated plus they still seem to work.


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## Autostädter

Even the TGV Sud-Est are still running, aren't they? Are there plans to retire those? Deutsche Bahn is planning to start retiring their ICE 1 and 2 sets (early 1990s) from 2020 on. From what I've read I thought that high speed trains generally don't last much longer than 30 years due to increased wear and tear.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-la-loire-timetable-revealed.html?channel=523
> 
> *TGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire timetable revealed*
> Monday, April 11, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _WITH 450 days to go before the launch of commercial services, SNCF Voyages CEO Mrs Barbara Dalibard announced the timetable for TGV services on the Bretagne-Pays-de-la-Loire high-speed line on April 8_
> 
> From July 2017, the fastest Paris Montparnasse - Rennes journey time will fall from 2h 4min to 1h 25min, with trains running at up to 320km/h on the new line from Le Mans to Rennes. Paris - St Malo will be reduced from 2h 56min to 2h14min, while the Paris - Brest journey time will be 3h 25min, compared with 4h 11min today
> 
> ...


----------



## M-NL

Autostädter said:


> Even the TGV Sud-Est are still running, aren't they? Are there plans to retire those? Deutsche Bahn is planning to start retiring their ICE 1 and 2 sets (early 1990s) from 2020 on. From what I've read I thought that high speed trains generally don't last much longer than 30 years due to increased wear and tear.


These two posts provide your answer:



33Hz said:


> Just passed 3 TGV PSE sets at Culoz clearly waiting to be scrapped and covered in graffiti.
> 
> A sad fate for such pioneering vehicles...





M-NL said:


> They were built between 1979 and 1985. Presumably these are older sets, so they're presumably over 35 years old. In that time they will probably have racked up a mileage even a regular intercity train set will not reach in a hundred years.


----------



## Nexis

*High speed TGV, Eurostar, OUIGO in France!*


----------



## Momo1435

The TGV PSE sets are being replaced by new TGV 2N2 set. But there are no full retirement plans for now. The sets that have been modernized and repainted in the new livery (as seen in post #1156) will soldier on.


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## tgva325

Momo1435 said:


> The TGV PSE sets are being replaced by new TGV 2N2 set. But there are no full retirement plans for now. The sets that have been modernized and repainted in the new livery (as seen in post #1156) will soldier on.


Most of the trainsets currently in service are OLDER than those already scrapped... 

There are at present 45 trainsets, most of them built in 1980-81.

Here the current situation, with withdrawal dates:

http://trainsso.pagesperso-orange.fr/TGVSE.pdf


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## 437.001

1772 said:


> I'm trying to find information on the new TGV route that is supposed to be constructed between Marsielle and Nice.
> http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/07/01/france-approves-route-for-marseille-nice-tgv/
> I can't find anything about it other than that link.
> 
> The route should be Marsielle - Toulon - Hyere - St Maxime - Frejus - Cannes - Nice
> It would connect eastern Cote d'Azur (which today is pretty isolated) and it would help the overcongested roads.





Erwindg said:


> Some links that may be interesting:
> 
> http://www.lignenouvelle-provencecotedazur.fr/
> 
> http://www.lignenouvelle-provencecotedazur.fr/sites/lgvpaca.fr/files/bdf_dossier_saisine_ln_170815.pdf





1772 said:


> Ah thanks!
> Looks pretty good except that they skip past Grimaud, St. Maxime and Frejus. Thats a shame.


No, that's not a shame. Building a HSL along the coast in the Var, would be suicidally expensive, and the area is not as populated as further east or west.

It will be expensive enough to build all the improvements needed in Provence and the Côte d'Azur as stated on the plans.

Meanwhile, the roads and trains are busier and busier...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/french-high-speed-project-rejected.html?channel=523
> 
> *French high-speed project rejected*
> Monday, April 18, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE declaration of public utility to build a high-speed line from Poitier to Limoges, which was granted in January 2015, has been annulled by France's State Council. This is the first time a French high-speed project has suffered such a fate_
> 
> The State Council, which is the is the highest administrative jurisdiction in France and advises the government on the preparation of bills, ordinances and certain decrees, found that the economic and social assessment for the project had shortcomings and, as it considered that the disadvantages outweighed the benefits, the scheme lacked public utility. The project has also been criticised as being unaffordable
> 
> ...


----------



## Sunfuns

From Poitier to Limoges? Hadn't heard of such a project before... Why would it even be necessary? Was it meant to later cross the whole France in the middle?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> From Poitier to Limoges? Hadn't heard of such a project before... Why would it even be necessary? Was it meant to later cross the whole France in the middle?


No, it's just that Hollande (Tulle) and Chirac (Ussel) came from there. :|


----------



## BlackArt-ist

Sunfuns said:


> From Poitier to Limoges? Hadn't heard of such a project before... Why would it even be necessary?


They intended to make a partly single track line, this says enough about the project's uselessness. 

Limoges and Poitiers aren't that big urban areas, upgrading the existing line instead would/will be far more feasible and cost-efficient.


----------



## Nexis

*High-speed train TGV cab. LGV Paris Gare de Lyon à Nice Ville*


----------



## Gusiluz

*Number of high-speed passenger*

*Passengers in TGV* HS trains (millions)
1981: 1,260
1982: 6,080
1983: 9,200
1984: 13,800
1985: 15,400
1986: 15,800
1987: 17,000
1988: 18,300
1989: 20,700
1990: 29,900
1991: 37,000
1992: 39,300
1993: 40,100
1994: 43,900
1995: 46,600
1996: 55,900
1997: 62,700
1998: 68,900
1999: 74,300
2000: 79,700
2001: 83,500
2002: 87,900
2003: 86,700
2004: 90,900
2005: 93,500
2006: 96,900
2007: 104,000
2008: 114,000
2009: 111,000
2010: 112,600
2011: 114,200
2012: 114,200
2013:
2014:
2015:
TOTAL: 1.905,240

Source: to 2009: 2.5.1. Transport de voyageurs : résultats d'ensemble http://www.statistiques.developpeme...ggUMAA&usg=AFQjCNHJdeBfALY8eqnYzhbfOhKN5Nkpeg
1994/2012 UIC http://www.uic.org/spip.php?article1350

*Passengers-kilometers in TGV* HS trains (billions)
1981: 0,620
1982: 3,340
1983: 5,340
1984: 7,730
1985: 8,720
1986: 8,930
1987: 9,810
1988: 10,490
1989: 11,510
1990: 14,920
1991: 17,870
1992: 18,960
1993: 18,930
1994: 20,510
1995: 20,944
1996: 24,262
1997: 26,789
1998: 29,677
1999: 32,095
2000: 34,457
2001: 37,200
2002: 39,561
2003: 39,255
2004: 41,251
2005: 42,518
2006: 44,818
2007: 47,964
2008: 52,225
2009: 51,864
2010: 52,783
2011: 54,038
2012: 54,035
2013: 53,764
2014: 53,723
2015:
TOTAL: 990,903

Source: to 2009: 2.5.1. Transport de voyageurs: résultats d'ensemble http://www.statistiques.developpeme...ggUMAA&usg=AFQjCNHJdeBfALY8eqnYzhbfOhKN5Nkpeg
1994/2012 UIC http://www.uic.org/spip.php?article1350 2000/2014: Les comptes des transports Excel: http://www.statistiques.developpeme...ons/p/references/comptes-transports-2014.html
Includes international traffic (Eurostar, Thalys, Alleo, Lyria and Rhealys), counting only national trains had 99.7 million Passengers and slightly less than 51 billion Passengers-km in 2012; Ouigo transported 3.6 million Passengers in 2014.

Passengers and Passengers-kilometers world data, and explanation of the fact that the operators and the UIC count -in some cases- the number of passengers on high-speed trains, not on high-speed lines.

If there is any doubt, suffice this fact: if we divide the number of Passengers-km of the LGV Atlantique (page 7) between the number of Passengers (page 13) results the medium-haul, over the years it varies between 388 and 404 km while the maximum travel of the line is 228 km; this can only mean that TGV also account travel along conventional lines.


----------



## tgva325

Gusiluz said:


> *Passengers in TGV* HS trains (millions)


International services are included?

What about Eurostar?

And the ICE services running in France?


----------



## Gusiluz

Already he puts it:


Gusiluz said:


> *...
> *http://www.statistiques.developpeme...ons/p/references/comptes-transports-2014.htmlIncludes international traffic (Eurostar, Thalys, Alleo, Lyria and Rhealys), counting only national trains had 99.7 million Passengers and slightly less than 51 billion Passengers-km in 2012; Ouigo transported 3.6 million Passengers in 2014.
> ...


Alleo is a Franco-German company, Lyria: French-Swiss, and Rhealys involving France, Germany, Luxembourg and Switzerland.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/05/26/approval-for-bordeaux-and-toulousedax-high-speed-lines/
> 
> *Approval for Bordeaux and Toulouse/Dax high-speed lines*
> 26 MAY, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The French State Council has approved a draft decree declaring public utility status for new high-speed lines between Bordeaux and Toulouse/Dax.
> 
> The Grand Southwestern Railway Project (GPSO) would extend the Tours – Bordeaux high-speed line, which is set to be commissioned in 2017, to Toulouse and beyond to the Spanish border
> 
> ...


----------



## danieltigo

That's an awfully short period to build such a long railway.


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## sotonsi

^^ They mean the Tours-Bordeaux LGV will open next year, not the Bordeaux-Tolouse-Dax one.


----------



## Nexis

*High speed Train TGV,OUIGO, Eurostar in France*


----------



## roaddor

Could anybody post a map with the current and future TGV infrastructure. I remember I saw some time ago a map with the network development until 2040 or 2050 and each year progress till 2030 but I could not find the data on internet nowadays. Thanks in advance.


----------



## winnipeg

As some of current and past projects have been delayed or cancelled (without telling it officialy) due to economic difficulties, I wouldn't consider any long term projects "serious" and I would only look at those who are projected in a short/middle term perspective...


----------



## tgva325

roaddor said:


> Could anybody post a map with the current and future TGV infrastructure. I remember I saw some time ago a map with the network development until 2040 or 2050 and each year progress till 2030 but I could not find the data on internet nowadays. Thanks in advance.


I think that the map published with the data is enough... existing new lines in blue, and dotted in blue those that are being constructed. And don´t expect more lines for a time.


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## clickgr

This is the map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Carte_TGV.svg

Only the under construction Nîmes – Montpellier Bypass section is missing.


----------



## BlackArt-ist

^^

On 5 june, the government signed a Declaration of Public Utility for the LGV GPSO project which will link Bordeaux, Toulouse and Dax.










Lest we forget... :fiddle: 
-LGV PACA (far more urgent than these South-West projects considering how loaded is the current coastal line)









-stillborn LGV Rhin-Rhône southern branch towards Lyon









-the long awaited Lyon-Turin and its main work, the Mont d'Ambin base tunnel (57 km), St-Gothard & Brenner western counterpart. Guess what? The least advanced one...


----------



## Robi_damian

BlackArt-ist said:


> ^^
> 
> On 5 june, the government signed a Declaration of Public Utility for the LGV GPSO project which will link Bordeaux, Toulouse and Dax.


So is this going to be the main connection from Toulouse to Paris once open?

I have to say France plans its LGV network pretty well to reduce costs. Currently the unfinished TGV via Bordeaux seems to take nearly as much as the InterCity via Brive-la-Gaillarde.


----------



## Suburbanist

So no LGVs planned to Italy (Modane) and Spain (Perpignan)?


----------



## clickgr

BlackArt-ist said:


> -stillborn LGV Rhin-Rhône southern branch towards Lyon


One thing I cannot understand is why the southern branch of the LGV Rhin-Rhône has been put on hold or at least in lower priority compared to other LGV projects. For me it looks to be one of the most important future sections of the TGV network, if not the most important. 

Personally I do not see any point to have the eastern branch ready without the southern part in the short term plans for project development at least. I also do not see making much sense the planned western branch which will probably start its construction prior to the southern branch. 

People from the region around Basel and other parts in north Switzerland, south Germany and the very east of France who want to travel towards Paris also have the option of the LGV Est or a combination of the LGV Est and the ICE network, which in many cases will be preferable over the LGV Rhin-Rhône eastern + western option. However, towards the south France there is no any efficient high speed service for them. 

The southern LGV Rhin-Rhône in combination with the existing eastern part will open up new horizons for the rail transportation across Europe. In fact it will connect significant economical centres of central Europe like Zurich, Basel, Stuttgart, Munich etc. and the populous southern German regions of Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria with the tourist destinations in Cote d'Azur and the Spanish Mediterranean coast as well as with other important Mediterranean cities like Marseilles, Nice and Barcelona. Not to mention the benefit from the fast freight transportation.

If the cost for the southern branch is too high to start the project soon, maybe they should consider another shorter connection to the LGV Paris-Lyon, not right in Lyon as planned but somewhere more north if possible, which could replace both the planned southern and the western branches.


----------



## winnipeg

KingNick said:


> So the French won't even bother this time to call for offers from other compitors and give the order straight to Alstom? French and their protectionism...


Protectionism? Oh yes we protect Alstom so much that they will close a 400 workers factory in Belfort (the factory where the first TGV was born)... hno:

It's fair that Alstom and the SNCF work togethers, they have both an excellent knowledge on this (especially the SNCF, they are far from simply operating trains, they have a lot of engineers for example and they work on the network...)


----------



## AlexNL

Shenkey said:


> What are the main problems of AGV?


It came to market late (years after the Velaro) and I expect some operators aren't keen on the articulated design.

When Trenitalia put an order for 50 high speed trains out to tender, they explicitly stated they did not want an articulated design. So Alstom offered the Speedelia, but this didn't go anywhere as the deal went to Bombardier + AnsaldoBreda.


----------



## 33Hz

I have to say having ridden on the AGV and the new Eurostar, I much prefer the AGV.

The new Alstom train for America is said to form the basis of a design that Alstom might offer the UK for HS2. Short power cars and interchangeable duplex or single deck trailers. I can also see that being attractive for SNCF.


----------



## Nexis

*High speed Train ( TGV, Eurostar, OUIGO, Thalys) in France*


----------



## KingNick

winnipeg said:


> Protectionism? Oh yes we protect Alstom so much that they will close a 400 workers factory in Belfort (the factory where the first TGV was born)... hno:
> 
> It's fair that Alstom and the SNCF work togethers, they have both an excellent knowledge on this (especially the SNCF, they are far from simply operating trains, they have a lot of engineers for example and they work on the network...)


So does Siemens. I wonder why they chose Alsom over them?


----------



## KingNick

ddes said:


> Just like DB and how they will never order anything besides Siemens.


You confuse them with ÖBB. DB buys plenty of rolling stock from other producers as well.


----------



## Matthieu

KingNick said:


> So does Siemens. I wonder why they chose Alsom over them?


Dunno, maybe the SNCF demanded a product that could be used on both standard and LGB lines. Maybe not. Maybe Siemens offered a similar deal or product, maybe not.

Either way, I don't see Siemens crying or talking of legal charges.


----------



## Matthieu

KingNick said:


> So does Siemens. I wonder why they chose Alsom over them?


http://www.lesechos.fr/25/03/2015/lesechos.fr/0204254866731_le-tgv-du-futur-progresse-cahin-caha.htm

There is your answer, the project was opened to competition and a European tender started summer last year.


----------



## hans280

winnipeg said:


> Protectionism? Oh yes we protect Alstom so much that they will close a 400 workers factory in Belfort (the factory where the first TGV was born)...


I think that the people who criticize "French protectionism" are barking up the wrong tree. Of course there is protectionism here and there, but it is not particularly pronounced in SNCF's acquisition of rolling stock. In fact, Alstom's present problems partly reflect a drought in orders, including from the domestic railway operators. The perhaps most visible protectionism is found in the allocation of construction contracts for new railway lines, which automatically and in alternation go to three domestic construction companies. As a Danish expat I find this quite eye-opening, because my compatriots have taken EU-wide tendering so seriously that, for example, the current metro extension in Copenhagen is undertaken by the Italian company Salini. 

I cannot help thinking that this Belfort discussion is linked to an entirely different issue. It can't be mostly about TGVs because the French government has already in the recent past instructed SNCF to buy some more such trains - yes, in order to give Alstom a helping hand. There's just not much more money to be made from selling TGVs in France in the coming years. Much more likely this is linked to the upcoming bidding for new RER trains for Paris's lines D and E. This contract will be hugely lucrative, and Alstom seems to be increasingly worried that it will go to a foreign competitor. This would be seriously damaging for the company, and it looks to me like they are trying to prevent it from happening by firing a warning shot and creating a "political storm".


----------



## Matthieu

Well I think this is all here beyond the point, according to the article from lesechos a tender ran since last summer. We don't know the terms of the tender, who made an offer and what were the terms. Right now Siemens does not appear to pursue legal charges in Brussels. 

And as a reminder, talking of France, in a few days H&K (German) will be announced winner of a major defence procurement with 100.000 units of HK 416 ordered. But yeah, French protectionism.


----------



## KingNick

Matthieu said:


> Dunno, maybe the SNCF demanded a product that could be used on both standard and LGB lines. Maybe not. Maybe Siemens offered a similar deal or product, maybe not.
> 
> Either way, I don't see Siemens crying or talking of legal charges.


There was a tender? I very much doubt that.


----------



## Matthieu

KingNick said:


> There was a tender? I very much doubt that.


Apparently there was

http://www.lesechos.fr/25/03/2015/lesechos.fr/0204254866731_le-tgv-du-futur-progresse-cahin-caha.htm

*Appel d'offres lancé d'ici l'été*
La SNCF, de son côté, devrait lancer « d'ici à l'été " un appel d'offres européen pour construire un « partenariat d'innovation " destiné à concevoir ce nouveau train, et donc le résultat sera connu début 2016, annoncent les pouvoirs publics. Sur le papier, le passage par un appel d'offres implique une mise en concurrence qui ne garantit nullement que le marché aille à Alstom. Ce serait toutefois un véritable séisme si Siemens ou Bombardier raflaient la mise.


----------



## Gusiluz

*TGV du futur*

In the future TGV project will participate *SNCF and Alstom*.

The collaboration will involve three phases: Definition and specification of the new TGV until the end of 2017, detailed design, industrialization and approval in four years and production, delivery and commissioning in mid-2022.

The team of twenty experts fully dedicated to the project work in a single joint headquarters in Paris and coordinated with SNCF teams and *eight of the twelve French Alstom factories*. It was also enriched by the contributions experts outside the project, engineering schools, and design, or industrial companies.

Alstom


> An integrated, multidisciplinary team of 20 experts from SNCF and Alstom, fully dedicated to the project, is from now on working in a single, stand-alone site located on Avenue du Maine in Paris. This method of working enables rapid decision-making, simultaneously taking into account all aspects of the project: passenger services, operation and maintenance, technical and industrial feasibility, costs ...
> 
> The SNCF-Alstom team, working in close conjuction with the internal resources of both companies, is also open to the outside. It regularly invites experts and guests to contribute their knowledge, particularly in terms of innovative working methods and advanced technical solutions. The team is thus enriched through successful collaborations with engineering and design schools, as well as other industrial companies and startups.


News about this topic in the media


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/sncf-unveils-first-tgv-oceane-train.html?channel=523
> 
> *SNCF unveils first TGV Océane train*
> Wednesday, September 14, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE first Alstom TGV 2N2 Euroduplex Atlantique train for the 302km Sud Europ Atlantique high-speed line was revealed to the press at Paris Montparnasse station on September 14 by French National Railways (SNCF) president Mr Guillaume Pepy and Mrs Rachel Picard, CEO of Voyages SNCF_
> 
> The fleet of 40 dual-voltage (25kV 50Hz ac/1.5kV dc) double-deck trains - dubbed TGV Océane by SNCF - were ordered in March 2012 using a €1.2bn option from a contract awarded to Alstom in 2007. The new trains will be supplemented on Atlantique services by 24 existing Duplex trains, which will be refurbished for their new role. These trains will replace the single-deck TGV Atlantique sets currently used on services from Paris to western and south-west France
> 
> ...


----------



## btrs

winnipeg said:


> Protectionism? Oh yes we protect Alstom so much that they will close a 400 workers factory in Belfort (the factory where the first TGV was born)... hno:
> 
> It's fair that Alstom and the SNCF work togethers, they have both an excellent knowledge on this (especially the SNCF, they are far from simply operating trains, they have a lot of engineers for example and they work on the network...)


There is a solution for that: politics or Alstom should force SNCF to relocate all refurbishment activities for all TGV sets to Belfort. That way SNCF's own Technicentres can concentrate on their core business: maintenance.

If you see how long some refurbishment programmes (Eurostar TMST/E300) are taking or some have been over their due date (TGV Duplex Mk1, batches 1-4), I think it's time to hand it over to a company who can do it in a timely and proper manner. Since Alstom built the sets they know them inside and out, and have a lot more experience as for logistics etc..


----------



## Gadiri

*New Euroduplex Océane*



> Embarquez à bord du nouveau* TGV l'Océane *qui circulera sur la ligne* Paris-Bordeaux-Toulouse.*


----------



## eu01

In a few days I'll have an opportunity to try out the OUIGO services. Somewhat disappointingly, I found out that the passengers are required to present themselves on the specified platform at least 30 minutes before the departure time :nuts:. Well, the travel time would be otherwise fast, some 1 hour and 25 minutes, but adding half an hour to this looks a bit frustrating. So what are the grounds for this requirement? Why it's enough to be 5 minutes before the departure of iDTGV and as little as 2 minutes before THALYS departure time, while OUIGO requires the appearance half an hour before it leaves the station? Does anyone have a logical explanation?


----------



## bifhihher

Because they let you board all at once, and do some luggage size checks.

I'd like to test the service too, will try when I have the chance.
Please get back to us about your experiences.


----------



## Short

eu01 said:


> In a few days I'll have an opportunity to try out the OUIGO services. Somewhat disappointingly, I found out that the passengers are required to present themselves on the specified platform at least 30 minutes before the departure time :nuts:. Well, the travel time would be otherwise fast, some 1 hour and 25 minutes, but adding half an hour to this looks a bit frustrating. So what are the grounds for this requirement? Why it's enough to be 5 minutes before the departure of iDTGV and as little as 2 minutes before THALYS departure time, while OUIGO requires the appearance half an hour before it leaves the station? Does anyone have a logical explanation?


It proves, just like the low cost carrier airlines, the costs are not just financial.


----------



## winnipeg

eu01 said:


> In a few days I'll have an opportunity to try out the OUIGO services. Somewhat disappointingly, I found out that the passengers are required to present themselves on the specified platform at least 30 minutes before the departure time :nuts:. Well, the travel time would be otherwise fast, some 1 hour and 25 minutes, but adding half an hour to this looks a bit frustrating. So what are the grounds for this requirement? Why it's enough to be 5 minutes before the departure of iDTGV and as little as 2 minutes before THALYS departure time, while OUIGO requires the appearance half an hour before it leaves the station? Does anyone have a logical explanation?


They adapted the lowcost airlines system to the trains because customers always asks for cheaper prices but without seeing all the advantages of traveling with TGV and others... So OUIGO is a lot cheaper but it don't deserve the main railway stations (that are more expensive), just like lowcost airlines, the baggages are checked and yes, you have to be in here earlier, and they put the maximum possible number of persons in it... 

Next time, try the classics TGV, you won't have those issues... :yes:


----------



## eu01

winnipeg said:


> Next time, try the classics TGV, you won't have those issues... :yes:


Well, just like with the low cost airlines, sometimes you simply do not have any suitable alternative in the given time-frame, the low cost connection is the only you can use. And indeed, do Ryanair, easyJet and other lcc's expect you to be at the boarding gate earlier than other carriers? Don't think so.


----------



## winnipeg

eu01 said:


> Well, just like with the low cost airlines, sometimes you simply do not have any suitable alternative in the given time-frame, the low cost connection is the only you can use. And indeed, do Ryanair, easyJet and other lcc's expect you to be at the boarding gate earlier than other carriers? Don't think so.


Yes, but at first for TGV you usualy don't have pre-boarding control, that's why...

In airlines you can't access directly in the airplane (it might be the case in the past, but it was a few decades ago....), so in my opinion, it's hardly comparable... hno:


----------



## Gusiluz

*ERTMS in France*

I'm looking for information about the ERTMS in France.

According to the map of SNCF Reseau 2017 (09/2016) there is only ERTMS (ETCS 2 software version 2.2.2+) on the *LGV Est* from Baudrecourt (southeast of Metz) and Vaires (23.5 km from Paris).

On the website of the *LGV Rhin-Rhône* he says he does have.
It is installed but not yet in service?

There ETCS 1 (with software version 2.3.0.d) between *Perpignan and Figueras* (Spain) since 19/10/2010.

In this article from IRJ explain that in the LGV Est is *preferably used ERTMS* before the TVM 430, so, not only 5 ICE 3MF but also Euroduplex 3UA normally circulate with ERTMS to 320 km/h?
The 12/17/2013 the EPSF authorized the ERTMS on the LGV Est and it is in commercial service since December 2014; It was delayed by problems with GSM-R.

On the website of the *LGV SEA* (Sud Europe Atlantique, opening scheduled for 07.02.2017) explain that the only signaling line is the ERTMS (ETCS 2) and TVM 300. And the maximum speed at the start will be 320 km/h although the line allows 350. So when the 40 Euroduplex 3UF traveling at 320 km/h will be done -mandatorily- with ERTMS, the TVM 300 is for TGV Atlantique trains, while supplies last. 24 Duplex trains to go to the LGV SEA, they have ERTMS? DASY or DASYE?
Exactly the same (ERTMS + TVM 300 and 320/350 km/h) in the case of *LGV BPL* (Bretagne Pays de la Loire) between Mans and Rennes also from 02/07/2017.
In the contours of Mans and, in the LGV Med, in Nimes and Montpellier will only ETCS 1. In this line will put TVN 430 to give continuity?

Here I have a *map of projects for 2020*, although it is somewhat old (There is another new?).


It will be installed in the *freight corridor* # 2 between Longuyon / Bettembourg and Bâle at the end of 2018; You will ETCS 2 software version 2.3.0.d.
European Freight corridor in France:
-Bâle-Mulhouse-Strasbourg-Metz-Thionville
-Lyon-Dijon-Metz
-Perpiñán-Modena, via Langedoc arc, the Rhone Valley, Lyon et Chambéry.

http://transportrail.canalblog.com/...-la-signalisation-ferroviaire--/34301115.html

Thank you very much for contributions!

Note: I'm happy for Belfort: 
French government and Alstom agree Belfort rescue package.


----------



## FM 2258

^^

For some reason I keep thinking France's high speed rail network is much more extensive.


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## tgva325

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> For some reason I keep thinking France's high speed rail network is much more extensive.


Yes, but they run over existing lines.

It is the correct approach, not the Spanish one... with a new railway and HUGH expenses and new statons and everything...


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ There are also 101 trains called Alvia circulating on HSL and conventional lines. In the link are the routes.

But that's a discussion for another Thread.


----------



## tgva325

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ There are also 101 trains called Alvia circulating on HSL and conventional lines. In the link are the routes.
> 
> But that's a discussion for another Thread.


The issue is not that.

The issue is the uncontrolled expansion of the high speed lines instead of rebuilt and regauge existing lines. 

And the nonsensical abandonement of the old stations and the building of new ones everywhere, and the famous "soterramientos", all of which is a waste of money when its done everywhere only to do new fashionable things instead of only where is required.


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## Gusiluz

But that's a discussion for another Thread. 
This is France HSR
Bye!


----------



## JumpUp

Hey,

there are two types of TGV being able to run to Barcelona:

TGV DAYSE: sets 732-744 

TGV RGV 2N2: sets 801-810

As far as I know, all TGVs to Barcelona are currently run by TGV RGV 2N2.
My questions:

- Are the TGV DAYSE sets 732-744 still able to go into spain or did they loose their Spanish equipment? 

- Are the TGV DAYSE or RGV 2N2 able to run any ruther than Barcelona (e.g. Madrid?) or is this technically not possible?

Thanks!


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ True, the Dasye only were to homologacion the Euroduplex, I do not think that they have lost it, but I do not know. 

The Paris-Barcelona trains are 2N2 3UH and could reach Madrid-Atocha (this trip was announced for December 2014). With 10 trains have more than enough to get to Madrid, I rather think the problem is the demand because it would take 9 hours. Perhaps from October 6, 2017 to give impetus to the opening of contournement ferroviaire de Nîmes et Montpellier, although the gain is minimal and I am not optimistic.
What they could never do it is move south of Madrid, as there is a section that only has LZB. Even when the section Madrid Chamartín to Torrejón de Velasco (30 km south of Atocha) is inaugurated, as it passes under Atocha and no communication possible. It could be solved with an STM (Specific Transmission Module) to translate the LZB to ETCS, as with the Spanish S-100F for French KVB.


----------



## M-NL

Gusiluz said:


> It could be solved with an STM (Specific Transmission Module) to translate the LZB to ETCS


If those models are equipped with the same EVC as the Thalys PKBA and TGV POS, then such a module already exists, as both these models are or have been used on German LZB equipped lines. However they also do require extra antennae fitted to the train and, as far as I know, a software change, because the Spanish LZB differs slightly from the German version.

It would however make more sense to change the line over to ETCS, because all other LAVs already seem to be using ETCS and the Madrid-Seville line is the last one left on LZB.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ The added problem is that these trains are not ready for Spain: long tunnels and ASFA.
Anyway, let's talk theoretically, I can not imagine a Seville-Paris train, at least until I see a Madrid-Paris day train.
Sevilla-Madrid is changing someday to ERTMS, but so far works very well with LZB. There is no definite plan in time.

In a few days, a new order will be awarded (15 (+5 (+5 (+5)))) of HST tritension (1.5 3 and 25 kV) and with French signaling, we assume that it will serve to replace the S-100F Madrid-Marseille, Barcelona-Toulouse and Barcelona-Lyon. The travel should be (according to being tritension) Madrid-Burgos-France and Valencia-Barcelona-France.


----------



## Nexis

*High speed Train ( TGV, Eurostar, AVE, OUGO) in France*


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-oceane-trains-enter-service.html?channel=523
> 
> *First TGV Océane trains enter service*
> Monday, December 12, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE first Alstom TGV 2N2 Euroduplex Atlantique trains for France’s Sud Europ Atlantique high-speed line entered commercial service on December 11, when French secretary of state for transport Mr Alain Vidalies and Mrs Florence Parly, executive director of Voyages SNCF welcomed passengers aboard the first service, the 09.28 Paris Montparnasse - Toulouse Matabiau_
> 
> The fleet of 40 dual-voltage (25kV 50Hz ac/1.5kV dc) double-deck trains - dubbed TGV Océane by SNCF - were ordered in March 2012 using a €1.2bn option from a contract awarded to Alstom in 2007
> 
> ...


----------



## kbbcn

Gusiluz said:


> In a few days, a new order will be awarded (15 (+5 (+5 (+5)))) of HST tritension (1.5 3 and 25 kV) and with French signaling, we assume that it will serve to replace the S-100F Madrid-Marseille, Barcelona-Toulouse and Barcelona-Lyon. The travel should be (according to being tritension) Madrid-Burgos-France and Valencia-Barcelona-France.


 Are you talking about the new Talgo (Avril) trains that Renfe is going to buy?

Great strategy. Renfe/SNCF already has problems filling the trains to France (or let's say that at least it's not the succes that some had hoped for), so the answer is to put trains with an higher density, less comfortable seating (3+2) on those lines...? hno:

I'm glad that they are using SCNF material on the Barcelona-Paris line (the one I use most). At least I will be able to continue travelling without the fear of being squeezed between two strangers for 6,5 hours.


----------



## kokomo

One question:

Are these new Océane trainsets comparable to current Duplex one in service? I mean, I took one from Nice to Marseille not so long ago, and was on the upper deck and it was a somewhat miserable experience. I found it too cramped and the ladder was way to narrow if you're carrying a suitcase.

I am in love with ancient trainsets in orange livery of course!


----------



## Castor_Game

kbbcn said:


> Are you talking about the new Talgo (Avril) trains that Renfe is going to buy?
> 
> Great strategy. Renfe/SNCF already has problems filling the trains to France (or let's say that at least it's not the succes that some had hoped for), so the answer is to put trains with an higher density, less comfortable seating (3+2) on those lines...? hno:
> 
> I'm glad that they are using SCNF material on the Barcelona-Paris line (the one I use most). At least I will be able to continue travelling without the fear of being squeezed between two strangers for 6,5 hours.





neuromancer said:


>


----------



## Gusiluz

*Euroduplex Océane and TGV parq*

From the 11th, the new Euroduplex 3UFC Océane (851/890) has begun to circulate through the LGV Atlantique (they are interoperable and have clearance gauge UIC, the C it means Capacitaire: 556 seats, F means “only France” and 3U because they have pre-installation for 3 voltages, but these and 3UH for Barcelona only have fully installed 1.5 and 25 kV, only 3UA trains do have 3: 1.5 15 and 25 kV). They are also known as RGV 2N2 3UFC. 
For the first time in France, first class passengers will be able to turn their seats to face the direction of travel.
Its maximum speed is 320 km/h and can only be reached in the new LGV (designed for 350) where there will be ETCS 2 (with software 2.3.0d) in addition to TVM300 for TGV Atlantique; It is quite possible (since 2017 it will be mandatory) to take advantage of the Duplex half-life reform to install ETCS. They could have put TVM430 in the LGV (there are 20 Atlantique that have it: 386/405), but they have not done it.



Since the inauguration of the new LGV SEA (South Europe Atlantique) and BPL (Bretagne Pays de la Loire) on 02/07/2017, the operating model announced by SNCF will be similar to that of the LGV PSE: Euroduplex and Duplex coupled from Paris, While the current TGV Atlantique (there are 93 but there will be 53) will be for domestic services outside of Paris: Nantes / Rennes - Bordeaux / Toulouse. The 24 Duplex (201/289) trains have half-life reform and the same interior of the 3UFC (556 seats) for Paris-Bordeaux and extensions. They have announced 27 Paris-Bordeaux and 6 Paris-Toulouse services. Also, as now, there will be some TGV Réseau for services from the North of Paris. Certainly the only train that does not circulate in double composition by the common trunk (Paris-Courtalain) is the Velaro e320 Eurostar (class 374) London-Bordeaux. :wink2:

Taking advantage of the news, I update the current situation of the *TGV parq* according to my data (thanks corrections):

36 PSE (001/117) (1981/86): there will be 31 trains until 2024 (38 years) the rest will be withdraw shortly.
93 Atlantique (301/405) (1989/91): there will be 53 trains that will have Lacroix interior, the rest will be withdraw shortly. To: Nantes / Rennes - Bordeaux / Toulouse.
26 Réseau bicourant (501/550) (1993/96): have retired 2 trains recently.
27 Réseau tricourant (4501/4530) (1993/96): they stop doing the Thalys PBA.
19 Réseau-Duplex (601/619) (2006/08): they will have interior reform. New double-deck trailers with power-cars of TGV Réseau (tricourant: 613/615, rest: bicourant).
88 Duplex (201/289) (1996/2006): to Paris-Lyon. The rest, apart the 24 reform to Capacitaire (556 seats) for SEA, will have half-life reform. The trailers of 4 trains will be converted in Ouigo in 2016 (North and West) and others 4 in 2017 (West and East). The remnants of these patches I imagine will be trains 294/301.
49 Duplex Dasye (701/750) (2008/11): to North-Southeast. The power-cars of 8 trains will be Ouigo.
30 Euroduplex 3UA (4701/30) (2012/15): complete series since 11/02/2015. For Germany and Switzerland.
10 Euroduplex 3UH (801/810) (2013/14): to Barcelona.
15 Euroduplex 3UF (811/825) (2014/15): Luxemburg and Paris-Lyon-Marseille together with the Duplex.
05 Euroduplex 3UFC (851/890) (2016/19): there are 5 now, and since 02/07/2017 there will be 17 to SEA y BPL.
19 Eurostar Three Capitals sets (18 cars, 3201/3232) (1993) and North of London sets (14 cars, 3301/3314) (1995): the 7 London-Paris and 6 London-Paris-Avignon (1,5 kV) have just begun their renovation; and there are still 6 Paris-North that were going to retire in 2014. The 3 Paris-Lille-Tourcoing (3203, 3225 and 3227) are withdraw in 2015 with only 22 years of use.
15 Thalys PBA (4531/4540) and PBKA (4341/4346) (1981/86): Interior renovation and ETCS in 2008/09. The 4531 was reformed to be 4551 Réseau.
09 Lyria exPOS (4401/4419) (1981/86): to Paris-Lausanne/Bern. Completed interior renovation. Are TGV POS 3-voltage power-cars and refurbished TGV Réseau trailers. 4406 sold to SBB in 2007, another 9 in 2012.
101 withdraw: 73 PSE, 2,5 La Poste (3,5 if we count the exPSE 038), 12 Atlantique, 8 Réseau, 4 Eurostar, the Duplex 255 (fire damage) and the Dasye 744 by the accident in the tests of the LGV Est.
*Total: 441 trainsets*.

There are included the *Ouigo* from 2013: Dasye power-cars 721/724 and trailers Duplex 219/222 transformed into Ouigo 760/3. Power-cars 219/222 and trailers 721/724 are: 290/293.
With the same system will be transformed to Ouigo (634 seats) 4 trains in 2016 (North and West) and other 4 in 2017 (West and East).

Another 35 Euroduplex 3UFC are being manufactured and have just been awarded to Belfort: 6 Euroduplex Paris-Milan and 15 Euroduplex for Intercités Bordeaux-Marseille.


----------



## Nexis

*High speed Train (TGV, OUIGO) in France*


----------



## 33Hz

This week I had my first trip on the second part of the LGV Est (Strasbourg - Paris). I was travelling on a new DB Velaro D. 

I noticed that for the whole of the new section we never went over 230 km/h, then once we passed the junction at Baudrecourt we immediately accelerated to 320 km/h.

Is the new section under a speed limit? As a result of the accident in testing still or for some another reason?


----------



## AlexNL

As far as I can tell, the whole line is designed and built for 320 km/h operation. Maybe a different train was in front of yours, which was no longer in the way when you passed Baudrecourt?


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## Gusiluz

^^ What they said was that the maximum speed after the accident would be 300 km/h.



> Le nouveau protocole d'essais aura pour conséquence que la vitesse d'exploitation garantie lors de la mise en service sera de 300 km/h, alors qu'elle devait être initialement de 320 km/h, a-t-il précisé.


And in a single track:


> En attendant la remise en état du site de l'accident, les trains circulent dans un premier temps sur une seule voie entre Steinbourg et le raccordement de Vendenheim, soit environ 27 kilomètres


----------



## Suburbanist

But the accident happened in a section without fully activated signaling, right? How does a lower speed help in that sense (unless it was really something lower, like 150-180 km/h)?

This seems one of those useless measures that do not increase safety at all, but are taken just as scrimps for the external public, which wants the perception that "something has been done".


----------



## Wilhem275

The single track is probably because in the accident a bridge was seriously damaged, so it will take more time to rebuild and settle.


----------



## Suburbanist

Wilhem275 said:


> The single track is probably because in the accident a bridge was seriously damaged, so it will take more time to rebuild and settle.


More than 1 year even?


----------



## 33Hz

I went over the bridge that was involved in the accident and a train passed on the other side some minutes later.

Furthermore we lost no time between Strasbourg and Paris, so I can only assume we were running at the designated speed.


----------



## Minato ku

An opinion about the new TGV Océane trainsets


Brisavoine said:


> Gusiluz said:
> 
> 
> 
> From the 11th, the new Euroduplex 3UFC Océane (851/890) has begun to circulate through the LGV Atlantique
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kokomo said:
> 
> 
> 
> One question:
> 
> Are these new Océane trainsets comparable to current Duplex one in service? I mean, I took one from Nice to Marseille not so long ago, and was on the upper deck and it was a somewhat miserable experience. I found it too cramped and the ladder was way to narrow if you're carrying a suitcase.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was one of the first customers to use those new Atlantic duplex high-speed trains between Toulouse and Paris last week, and all I can say is... this is the worst high-speed train I've ever seen in my entire life! hno:
> 
> I don't even know where to start. In no particular order:
> - the seats are the most uncomfortable I've ever experienced in a train or bus anywhere in the world, including Third World countries. They have fallen for the gimmick of lumbar back support, which means the lowest part of the backrest (where it joins the flat horizontal part of the seat) is protruding instead of being flat or curvy (concave) as it used to be with traditional seats. While these sorts of protruding lumbar back supports may work fine for certain people, they are not adjustable and can be hell for many people, including me. Even when you incline the backrest backward, which makes the lumbar back support less protruding, it's still very uncomfortable. As a result, I spent 5 hours in pain. hno:
> 
> I can't believe how stupid they are for having designed seats that way! I've never seen that in any other train in the world, either in France or abroad. If all the old Atlantic TGVs are withdrawn from service, I'm now considering using the old slow train line via Limoges instead, because these new seats are frankly unbearable. This is making me extremely mad.
> 
> - to make things worse, they have completely removed the footrests! Footrests are great because they allow you to switch positions during your trip (sometime you put your feet on the footrest, sometimes on the floor, which is good for your posture as you can move frequently, especially on long train trips, considering that Toulouse is more than 5 hours by train from Paris!). Well the stupid people at SNCF decided that footrests were not needed anymore, so they are gone, just like that! This compounds the problem of the protruding lumbar back support, since you can't switch positions during the trip. This is particularly stupid considering that the TGV Atlantique are used for long trips, much longer than trips to Lyon or Marseille. I've asked my physical therapist who also agrees that it's not good for the body to remove the footrests.
> 
> - this you will never believe: there are no more trash cans below or on the side of the seats!! In fact they have removed all the trash cans! There is only one trash can for everybody on the exit platform of each car. Before arriving in Paris, they run a message on the screen of each car asking people not to forget to leave their trash in the only trash can on the exit platform before they exit the train. SNCF was very clear about the reason why they did this: it saves them time, as the SNCF personnel doesn't have to remove trash from each individual trash can when they clean the trains between two train rides. Yet the price of the train tickets has not gone down (I paid 115 euros for a one-way ticket!!!!!).
> 
> As a result, I did something I never ever do normally: I left all my trash on the table in front of my seat. I mean F...K THEM!
> 
> - this is something that didn't bother me as I don't mind cold, but which bothered tremendously the people in the car where I sat: the AC is too strong, the flow of cold air is much stronger than in the other trains I've used (despite it being winter, they blow cold air, not warm air, yet the temperature inside the car is around 20 degrees, but the air you feel coming out of the AC is cold). The people in the car had to wear scarves and complained loudly. Personally, I don't mind drafts of fresh air, so it didn't bother me. The only thing which bothered me was I'm used to putting my elbow on the AC vent by the window, as it offers some sort of support, but with this train it was uncomfortable as it made my arm rather cold quickly.
> 
> - this you won't believe either: these new trains are supposed to be high-tech and whatnot, with Wi-Fi, USB plugs, etc. In the older TGV Atlantique we had only one electricity plug for 2 seats, so it was often a competition with your neighbor as to who would get to plug their phone or laptop. I thought with the new duplex trains we would have two electricity plugs. Well, ladies and gentlemen, the incompetent SNCF decided that one electricity plug was enough, so we still have only one electricity plug for 2 seats!! I mean, why add some comfort if you can scrap a few cents... icard:
> 
> - the general interior design of these duplex trains is very cheap. The seats are not only uncomfortable but their fabric looks cheap. The armrests look cheap. The colors used are cheap. The cheapest thing being the clunky plastic button that you have to push to turn on your individual light. This button is located on the inner side of one armrest and looks straight out of the 1980s. Apple design this is not!
> 
> This protruding plastic button is so inconveniently located that by trying to rest my back on the armrest to remove the pain from the lumbar back support my body often turned on the light, which was annoying. I mean, in this day and age of technology, they couldn't have made a flat button with no risk of being pushed inadvertently?? Again, you can feel they have saved all the money they could with every detail, yet the price of the train tickets is as horrendously expensive as ever.
> 
> In this picture you can see the protruding plastic button (on the side of the raised armrest):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - there's no Wi-Fi. I don't know whether there'll be some Wi-Fi someday, but at the moment there isn't. And on top of it, I swear I'm not exaggerating, the reception on my phone was much worse than in the older TGV Atlantique. Not only internet mobile reception, but also good old telephone reception. Both were noticeably worse (I use this train line a lot, so I'm well used to what sort of reception I can expect where and when). I don't know whether that's due to the frame of these trains, the metals, etc. So on top of sitting there uncomfortably for 5 hours, I was without internet for 75% to 80% of the time!! Can you believe in a modern country like France you have not internet reception in a train between the 5h and 4th largest metro areas and the capital city?? In fact telephone reception is better in rural Morocco in my experience! Even in some urban areas like Angoulême and its suburbs it was hard to receive internet in these new trains (in the old TGV I never had problems connecting to the internet while crossing the suburbs of Angoulême).
> 
> - so, I thought ok, everything is crap, but at least it's a new train, so when we reach the high-speed part of the line (i.e. after Tours) it will be less noisy and more comfortable than with the old TGV (in the old TGV Atlantique, when you're at 300 km/h it's very noisy, whereas on the duplex TGV between Paris and Lyon it's much quieter in comparison). Well, much to my horror the high-speed section between Tours and Paris was as noisy as with the old TGV Atlantique, and definitely noisier and less comfortable than when you use the duplex between Paris and Lyon. On top of it, I was on the elevated level, and it swayed noticeably, in a way neither the old TGV Atlantique nor the elevated level of the duplex between Paris and Lyon does). Back in the 1990s the authorities boasted about the fact you could put a pen standing up on the table in from of your seat and it wouldn't fall, well I can assure you this would certainly be impossible on the elevated level of these new duplex trains. The only benefit is the swaying eased my back pain a bit.
> 
> So my conclusion: a very cheap train, very inferior to the duplex TGV on the Paris-Lyon line, where I never had back pain or noticed any cheapness. With those new Atlantic duplex (pompously called "Euroduplex", I mean please!), you can feel they have tried to save money in every department, to the detriment of customers, who are still required to pay high prices for their tickets. . This is absolutely outrageous and shameful. And to think we're now stuck with these trains for 20 years... hno:
Click to expand...


----------



## kbbcn

^^
I don't know what is happening, but train operators seem determined to drive people back to the airlines. (The new - future - Talgos with 3+2 seating in Spain are another example...) Or are they just testing how far they can go in making trains a low cost experience without losing customers?

Guess what, if I am going to be uncomfortable, I'd rather be so on a short flight than on a longer train ride...


----------



## JumpUp

Hey,

thank-you for the detailed (and negative) information concerning the new TGV.
My question:

How does first class look like, is there more or better comfort?

There are also older TGV being refurbished to look like TGV l'Océane: Do they have the same seating?


----------



## K_

kbbcn said:


> ^^
> I don't know what is happening, but train operators seem determined to drive people back to the airlines. (The new - future - Talgos with 3+2 seating in Spain are another example...) Or are they just testing how far they can go in making trains a low cost experience without losing customers?
> 
> Guess what, if I am going to be uncomfortable, I'd rather be so on a short flight than on a longer train ride...


I have to test one of these trains myself but a few remarks:

- Getting rid of the footrests I consider a good thing. Those things are a bloody nuisance. They don't fold up completely and thus always protrude in the space where I want my leggs to be. So I have the choice of either having my feet uncomfortable high up, or either hitting my chins against it continually.
- The trashcans at the seats are in most cases useless. Collecting my trash in a bag and disposing of it when exiting is something I've been doing for ages.


----------



## Suburbanist

Trash cans near seat are good on the few occasions where you have trash and the can is empty, of no use when it is full with just one bottle, and nasty when they are overflowing.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-de-la-loire-high-speed-line.html?channel=523

*Test trains reach 352km/h on Bretagne-Pays de la Loire high-speed line*
Thursday, February 02, 2017










_THE Bretagne-Pays de la Loire high-speed line moved another step closer to the start of operations at the end of January, when TGVs reached the maximum testing speed of 352km/h_

The test programme requires validation of safe operation at 352km/h, 10% above the maximum commercial operating speed of 320km/h. Testing began in November 2016 and speeds have been incrementally increased over the last two months

...


----------



## M-NL

K_ said:


> The trashcans at the seats are in most cases useless. Collecting my trash in a bag and disposing of it when exiting is something I've been doing for ages.


 I could live with that provided that they provide free bags on the train to collect the garbage in. Especially when you spent several hours in the same train, chances are you will need to dispose of several items, some of them not very suitable for transport without a container.


----------



## The Polwoman

K_ said:


> I have to test one of these trains myself but a few remarks:
> 
> - Getting rid of the footrests I consider a good thing. Those things are a bloody nuisance. They don't fold up completely and thus always protrude in the space where I want my leggs to be. So I have the choice of either having my feet uncomfortable high up, or either hitting my chins against it continually.


For tall people it is a nuisance. But wait, not everybody is almost 2 meters long! I'm almost obliged to use footrests in order to let my feet rest, and I think the average Frenchman, especially since the army sent all tall men to the front a long time ago (or at least it's the funny explanation of the fact that they're not so tall), will be pleased as well with footrests. So I definitely think this is a step backwards.


----------



## K_

The Polman said:


> For tall people it is a nuisance. But wait, not everybody is almost 2 meters long!


I'm not particularly tall though. In fact, at 1m82 I'm perfectly average...

The nuisance is that somehow the footrests in the TGV cannot be completely folded up. Who came up with that...


----------



## M-NL

K_ said:


> In fact, at 1m82 I'm perfectly average...


That depends on what you compare yourself to:
Ignoring some small differences between data sources: In the Netherlands the average height of a male is 184cm, in Europe as a whole 178cm, in France 177cm, in Japan 172cm and in India 165cm.

Also consider that a large frame 89kg 188cm Dutch man needs to sit on the same seat as a small frame 52kg 158cm French woman. In reality the spread is even larger, so one size seats all will result in compromises.


----------



## Nexis

*TGV Atlantique*


----------



## Suburbanist

How are SNCF low cost high speed trains operations doing (idTGV and OuiGo)?


----------



## btrs

JumpUp said:


> There are also older TGV being refurbished to look like TGV l'Océane: Do they have the same seating?


That will probably be TGV Duplex, batch 1 from 1995-1997, 24 sets to be refurbished. Details still unknown, but will probably look alot like the TGV Océane to be able to mix in the same services (same seatplan = same reservation scheme/seat capacity). They will also be equipped with ETCS L2 so they can run at 320 km/h (all other sets running on TVM300 will remain at 300 km/h).


----------



## Nexis

*High speed Train, TGV, Eurostar, OUIGO in France*


----------



## Suburbanist

> Originally Posted by *Brisavoine*


Where does Brisavoine post his answers?


----------



## roaddor

^^
^^
Merci for the clarifications. If only we (smaller countries like Bulgaria) had your problems in France, considering a line for 220km/h not sufficiently fast. :lol:
Indeed it will be best to make the line through Montpellier for 320km/h from the very beginning. It may happen that you spend more money as a whole if you make it in two steps but in any case the line will be upgraded to the upper limit.
As for the passage through the Alps (Lyon-Turin), it will cost immense amount of money and take at least a decade for drilling the base tunnel only, but I am sure the line will pay off afterwards. The perspective of taking the train from London in the morning, doing business in Paris and enjoying Rome in the evening, will be simply amazing.


----------



## Gusiluz

The final report on the Eckwersheim accident is now published:


> La cause directe de l’accident est la vitesse de 255 km/h dans une courbe serrée de 945 m de rayon.
> Cet excès de vitesse est dû à un freinage inapproprié par rapport à la vitesse initiale du train pour aborder la zone où la vitesse maximale prescrite n’est plus que de 176 km/h, et qui commence juste avant la courbe en question.
> 
> Ce freinage inapproprié est lui-même le produit de trois chaînes causales :
> 
> -une stratégie de freinage inadaptée, résultant d’un raisonnement erroné et prévoyant un freinage pneumatique au PK 402 pour respecter le seuil de 176 km/h au PK 403,809 ;
> -une incompréhension entre le cadre transport traction (CTT) et le reste de l’équipage sur les modalités du freinage se traduisant par le relâchement du frein électrique par le conducteur et le maintien de la vitesse de 330 km/h jusqu’au déclenchement du freinage pneumatique ;
> -un appel interphonique pendant le freinage qui a perturbé le CTT et l’a empêché de voir que le frein électrique avait été relâché contrairement à la stratégie qu’il avait prévue.


It says nothing of the presence of seven people in the cabin.


----------



## Gusiluz

*SNCF renames TGV by inOui*

SNCF : les TGV vont s'appeler... inOui Le Parisien 26/05/2017

*SNCF renames TGV by inOui
*
SNCF changed the name TGV by inOui from 2 July at the inauguration of the new SEA HSR (Sud Europe Atlantique), towards Bordeaux. It will then make its appearance on the trains of Paris-Lyon and Paris-Strasbourg later this year. "The goal is to have 30% of the TGV park changed by the end of 2017.
IDTGV also disappears.


----------



## De Klauw

inOui. What a bad name. TGV is a household name, even in other languages. When I hear the name inOui I can only think 'in what?'. In yes?


----------



## 437.001

Honestly, I've seen better decision making in Sncf. 

There are lots of memes going around of (not just) French people complaining and making fun of this stupid name change.


----------



## aquaticko

Not to mention it sounds vaguely like ennui....Hardly a positive association.

Honestly, sometimes I'm dumbfounded at the choices management--apparently in all countries, in all industries, public and private--make regarding marketing.


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## Gusiluz

From SNCF:


> Bonjour Cole,
> TGV reste TGV, soit la dénomination du matériel.
> inOUI fait référence à l'offre de services enrichie dont vont pouvoir bénéficier nos voyageurs dans les années à venir
> Plus de confort, plus de connectivité et un accueil plus personnalisé.
> Bon après-midi à vous !


Trains will continue to be called TGV, the highest level services will be inOUI and the low cost Ouigo. 
The rest of the denominations for internal routes by France disappear, the international denominations does not vary.


----------



## Suburbanist

That is what I had understood as well: inOui and OuiGo will be sub-classes of TGV service.

Like Frecciabianca and Frecciarossa are subclasses of Freccie Italian high-speed rail service.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^... and Frecciargento. 

I understand that the commercial dénomination TGV disappears and only remains as denomination of the own trains:

SNCF to rebrand TGV services as ‘inOui’ Railway Gazette 


> SNCF confirmed local media reports that its TGV network of high speed passenger services is to be rebranded as ‘inOui’.


----------



## AlexNL

More interestingly, the Ouigo network will be expanded:


> PLUS DE OUIGO
> 
> Vous aimez OUIgo : l’essentiel de la grande vitesse à petit prix et une offre simple et directe.
> OUIgo se multiplie et représentera 25% des voyages à grande vitesse avec :
> 30 destinations sur tous les grands axes nationaux
> 34 nouvelles rames TGV
> 5 fois plus de voyageurs profitant de ses petits prix


- 30 destinations (Ouigo currently serves 19 stations)
- 34 new TGV Ouigo trains
- 5 times as much passengers who will profit from Ouigo's low prices


----------



## Gusiluz

InOUI presentation:


yokohama said:


> El rebranding ha sido presentado hoy en la Gare de Montparnasse:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


----------



## entfe001

^^ So, it's some sort of classing? However, instead of Standard and Business classes on the same train, are they going to split them on separate trains?

The name itself is weird. I guess 90% of people will keep asking for TGV tickets at the _guichets_ for a long time.



Gusiluz said:


> the international denominations does not vary.


I, for one, would prefer a simpler name than _Renfe-SNCF en cóoperation_. This is ridiculous, I still wonder why they don't kept the Elipsos brand name. The name is also a half joke beacuse both companies are rather uncooperative between them.

By the way:



Gusiluz said:


> The final report on the Eckwersheim accident is now published:
> 
> It says nothing of the presence of seven people in the cabin.


Au contraire, point 5.1 of the report is dedicated to this issue, and is also mentioned on other parts of the report, even figure 24 shows the relative position of every person on the cab. However, after everyone on the cab confirmed that the non-duty members did not move nor talk during the run, and after a reconstruction showed that their position on the cab did not interfere with the tasks of the on-duty members, the BEA-TT reached the conclusion that having 7 people on the cab had nothing to do with the accident, nor even is against rules on test runs.

If anything, the report questions the tasks of the *on-duty* members: besides the actual driver, their functions are not clearly defined which contributed to the accident, as neither did notice that the discussed braking plan was not being properly followed.

Mostly, the problem was a misunderstanding on how the braking should have been done. On the previous run there was another misunderstanding, however in that case braking was made too early so the top speed for the last section could not be properly tested. After that run, a new braking plan was proposed on which the electric brake was planned to be kept applied and, after a while, use a full service brake to comply with the speed limit imposed by the tight curve. However, and also due to a distraction by an incoming call from the lab coach, the person who planned the braking was distracted when the driver released the electric brake instead of keeping it applied. Then, when the point where the full brake was due was reached and announced, it was too late.

Other factors that the report points are that the speed limit drop from 330kph to 176 meant that effectively the top speed before the 176 section couldn't be tested at all and was well above the limits which would be enforced by the signalling, so questions the point on extending the top speed tests so far. Also, due to the testings running at 110% of top speed, the signalling safety systems had to be disabled so any overspeed past the point of safe braking put the train in a situation where the accident was unavoidable before it happened.

This last part I've explained reminded me so strongly of the Santiago de Compostela train disaster where a Renfe trainset derailed on a tight curve where there was a speed limit drop from 200kph to just 80, with the aggravating factor that the ERTMS safety system did end 4km before the curve and so its speed protection was seriously compromised, although it did not actually matter because ERTMS was disabled due to compatibility problems between the track and the trainset, using instead a fallback system (ASFA) which does not enfoce track speed limits, only those imposed by signalling like approaching a red signal. It's sad to see how the CIAF report (CIAF is the Spanish equivalent of French's BEA-TT) was mainly focused on the phone call the driver received but paid almost no attention at all at the serious danger of running without speed protection on such a heavy limit drop: as with the Eckwersheim accident, when the drived applied brakes it was too late. Also, there was no signage reminding him of the need to brake, the drivers having been used to brake taking as a reference an scenery point.

Also, the CIAF report added recomendations to make train tickets nominative and also issue tickets for non-fare child passengers so, in case of accident, they could be more easily identified. This misses the point of the CIAF itself, which should be focusing on preventing further accidents, not sorting things out when one unfortunately happens.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ They will be different services: the one that costs more money with all the extras: *inOui*, and the cheap, without billing and in remote stations will be: *Ouigo*. Ouigo trains are Duplex without first class or cafeteria. And the TGV brand will end up being bought by an eyewear company :nuts:

What Elipsos actually is even worse: society is Elipsos International, and the brand: Renfe and SNCF in Cooperation. Anyone understands that it should be the other way around.

So 7 people in a cabin did not interfere :bash: If you go twice when you are distracted.


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## hans280

According to SNCF the name inOUI is intended to allude to "inno" which is colloquial for "innovation". But I would agree that the more secret agenda is probably to prepare the grounds for shifting more of the passenger service towards the similarly named OuiGo. They have learnt a lesson from the air transport where it has been extremely painful for Air France (inter alia because of the trade unions) to shift activities toward its budget carrier subsidiary


----------



## Robi_damian

^^ Seriously?! The TGV is a massive global brand and has a 35 year-old name attached to it. Why would they change it? In Romania "TGV" is even used as the _pars-pro-toto_ name for high speed trains, as in "OMG, I went to Germany and tried their TGVs". This is a bit like Coca Cola rebranding itself. :bash:


----------



## Wilhem275

I agree.

Trenitalia's situation is a bit different, since the "Freccia" levels represent services with different speeds (like IC and ICE for DB); plus, since there was no public recognition of the train's names, they are pushing a lot to create a single identity between rolling stocks and services, which is exactly the opposite of what SNCF is doing now.

Since the Frecciarossa reached a greater succes, they are now shifting more services to that brand (and its corresponding rolling stock), and the only different commercial name being introduced is Frecciarossa1000 to signal that the latest stock is used for that service (but that's the only difference among that category, same price, same performance).

TGV is a brand known even by people who hardly understand what a train is.


----------



## Suburbanist

Germany and France desperately need a high-moneyed flashy private competitor. Italo was the very best thing to have happened to railway services in Italy since the dawn of tilting trains from Fiat Ferroviaria. 

I mean: a private competitor with muscle, big enough to fend off price wars and withstand them, not a small enterprise with some hand-me-down stock. 

That could force SNCF to up its game.


----------



## aquaticko

Well, SRT in South Korea has proven to be a strong competitor to KTX, even though both are technically operations of the public national operator, Korail. However, two things set SRT apart from KTX. 

First of all, SRT has exclusive rights to operate on the Suseo HSR line into southeastern Seoul, at least for now, yet maintains access to the rest of South Korea's high-speed network. This comes with a lot of obvious benefits. Secondly, SRT is a subsidiary of Korail, not simply a separate brand of train service. This means, once again, a lot of obvious benefits--their trains are setup to different specifications, they have a different pricing structure, etc.

So, private, a competitor rail company need not be, but it does have to be able to operate somewhat independently in order for there to be a difference between the entities significant enough to induce customers to change their service provider, creating competition with the old provider to change and innovate. This has already been seen in Korail's KTX services, which is going to lengths such as providing connector bus services to metro stations or other locations near their stations.

I do have to say that if, as that concept livery seems to suggest, there will be entirely different trains for inOui and ouiGo, this seems like a mistake. I would imagine that kind of inflexibility, in terms of service provisions for passengers, will end up creating more empty seats.


----------



## M-NL

entfe001 said:


> Also, due to the testings running at 110% of top speed, the signalling safety systems had to be disabled so any overspeed past the point of safe braking put the train in a situation where the accident was unavoidable before it happened.



I've already read several accident reports, where they state that a train control system had to be disabled, because they wanted to exceed the normal running speed. And everytime I just wonder why? Testing at higher then normal track speed is a very regular occurence, so why not provide protection for that? The enforced speeds and braking curves are 'just numbers' in a computer program nowadays. Why not have some special limited access testing mode that enforces increased speed limits and steeper braking curves, so you can test with a safety net switched on?


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## tgva325

Suburbanist said:


> Germany and France desperately need a high-moneyed flashy private competitor. Italo was the very best thing to have happened to railway services in Italy since the dawn of tilting trains from Fiat Ferroviaria.
> 
> I mean: a private competitor with muscle, big enough to fend off price wars and withstand them, not a small enterprise with some hand-me-down stock.
> 
> That could force SNCF to up its game.


SNCF doesn´t care, is a big monpolical enterprise that is not interested in trains, but in bureaucracy, monopoly and public managers acting as owners of the whole thing.

The regions needs urgently private operators other than SNCF, which asks money for bad services.

And, of course, they are NOT interested in private companies running competition in long distance routes. They scrap TGV trainsets and Corail cars that can run for at least 10 more years.


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## The Polwoman

^^ that's indeed what we see in this incompetitive market. At the other side, the Belgians who also don't tend to have learned about competitive markets, sees some very old trains on its network.

But what you say is normally the thing that happens. Ever since the Dutch network is more about money old trains keep on running for quite a long time. However, that is only on the electric network. The diesels get scrapped at quick pace, a waste of money.


----------



## KingNick

Suburbanist said:


> Germany and France desperately need a high-moneyed flashy private competitor. Italo was the very best thing to have happened to railway services in Italy since the dawn of tilting trains from Fiat Ferroviaria.
> 
> I mean: a private competitor with muscle, big enough to fend off price wars and withstand them, not a small enterprise with some hand-me-down stock.
> 
> That could force SNCF to up its game.


Same happened in Austria with WESTbahn. The service level increased quite dramatically and prices went down. Cannot wait for RegioJet to run trains between Praha and Wien as well.


----------



## Nexis

*High speed Train TGV/EUROSTAR/VIGIRAIL/OUIGO in France*


----------



## Sesto Elemento

Starting tomorrow, only 2 hours between Paris and Bordeaux, which is the same distance as between London and Edinburgh, or between Berlin and Munich, and almost the same distance as between NYC and Montréal. :bowtie:

More importantly, the travel time between Paris and Toulouse, which, beyond Bordeaux, is like London-Inverness beyond Edinburgh, or Berlin-Swiss border beyond Munich, will be cut from currently 5 hours and 35 minutes to 4 hours and 19 minutes starting on Sunday. :banana:

The travel time between Paris and Brest at the western end of Brittany will be cut from currently 4 hours and 21 minutes to 3 hours and 33 minutes starting on Sunday.


> Paris-Bordeaux high-speed line to be launched this weekend
> 
> Rail News
> June 30, 2017
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new high-speed line is set to launch on France’s TGV network this weekend.
> 
> On July 2, the new Océane line will open between the French capital and Bordeaux.
> 
> Alstom will supply 110 Euroduplex train sets for the service, following an initial deal that was signed in 2007 and subsequent additional orders in 2013 and 2017. The full delivery is expected to be complete by 2020.
> 
> [...]
> 
> https://www.globalrailnews.com/2017...-high-speed-line-to-be-launched-this-weekend/


----------



## Aokromes

> 5 heures de retard pour le premier TGV Paris-Toulouse
> 
> Le premier TGV Océane, qui devait relier Paris à Toulouse en 4h20, est arrivé avec cinq heures de retard, selon Franceinfo.
> 
> Le retard est dû à un Intercités Bordeaux-Nice tombé en panne près d'Agen : le trafic a dû être interrompu dans le sens Bordeaux-Toulouse le temps des réparations.
> 
> Résultat, le train parti à 8h59 de Paris a mis 9h19 à arriver à Toulouse.


More: http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/en-d...ncf-heures-retard-premier-paris-toulouse.html


----------



## MarcVD

One more line in France that does not have bidirectional signalling ?


----------



## SSCreader

The opening of these lines also provided more information. It was the first occasion for Macron to announce the future policy on high speed rail, and the policy is: "There is no money, so there will be no new lines. We finish the existing commitments, but for the future the money will be for maintenance and everyday trains only".


----------



## Silly_Walks

That's sad. He should have at least let Bordeaux-Toulouse go through.


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> One more line in France that does not have bidirectional signalling ?


Does it matter? When everything runs as it is suposed to you don't need it. How often is the bi-directionality used? Every feature you add increases building cost and also must be used regularly to test that it still works.


I don't know if they still do that, but in Germany on bi-directional tracks the main direction was usually cut up into smaller blocks and the alternate direction was one large single block, to make signalling simpler. 


And I'd rather have a single double-track line (instead of a double single-track) instead of no track at all.


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ indeed, at least the line to Toulouse must be a quick win. For the longer term Marseille (or another city) to Nice must be considered in order to reduce travel times to all major regions to less than five, no, four hours from Paris. And it would substantially benefit those regions/cities as commuting over long distances will be easier as well.


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> Does it matter? When everything runs as it is suposed to you don't need it. How often is the bi-directionality used? Every feature you add increases building cost and also must be used regularly to test that it still works.
> 
> 
> I don't know if they still do that, but in Germany on bi-directional tracks the main direction was usually cut up into smaller blocks and the alternate direction was one large single block, to make signalling simpler.
> 
> 
> And I'd rather have a single double-track line (instead of a double single-track) instead of no track at all.


Yes it does. It would have allowed to run around the failed train rather than wait for 5 hours. Most networks in Europe see some value in it and implement it, France being the most notorious counter example. In BE all lines have it with most often same signal spacing on both directions. There is a large effort currently going on by Infrabel to eliminate all superfluous equipment and bidirectional signalling is not part of it. It is frequently used, not only in case of perturbations but also for planned parallel moves executed every day. The fact that signalling centres have now à much larger zone under control makes such things much easier, of course.


----------



## M-NL

If it takes 5 hours to recover a stranded train they should focus on that. Why does it take 5 hours in the first place?

And I doubt if bi-directionality would have helped. Take the Dutch HSL-South for instance, which is bi-directional. If a train gets stranded there the other track may not be used, because safety procedures do not allow the recovery locomotive to be connected when the other line is used. 

Consider this: In Japan bi-directional signalling is an exception, because they deem that every bit of unnecesary complexity increases the risk of errors and failures. Also Japanese trains are build with such redundancy that they wouldn't have failed in the first place. 

Note that I'm not against bi-directional signalling. When it is actually used, that's a good reason to have it.

I don't like those big modern signalling centers. In the past signallers used to know the location of every train. That allowed them to act in case of disruption. Nowadays computers run the show and the signallers only deal with the exceptions. When the computer fails nobody knows where the trains exactly are anymore and big chaos is the result. 

Note the difference with air traffic control: Despite a high level of computer assistance some still use paper strips, just in case the computers stop working.


----------



## Suburbanist

Big dispatching centers are a matter of efficiency. Railways would have to employ much more people to run distributed controls all over their network. I also think your comparison is a bit tricky because air transport has a split control between airport-zone traffic and non-airport airspace traffic. The latter is controlled in a rather centralized manner.


----------



## flierfy

SSCreader said:


> The opening of these lines also provided more information. It was the first occasion for Macron to announce the future policy on high speed rail, and the policy is: "There is no money, so there will be no new lines. We finish the existing commitments, but for the future the money will be for maintenance and everyday trains only".


M. Macron sounds like a real Parisian already. Outside the Île-de-France, there is no such thing as an everyday train, at least not for the vast majority of the people. There are once-in-a-while trains at best. And these trains are more likely to be TGVs than regional ones. So if he decides to invest in 'everyday train' rather than LGVs then it means nothing less than a shift from the province to the capital. This change in policy won't be too popular in places like Nice or Toulouse, which would have been next to be connected to the LGV network, I reckon.


----------



## tgva325

The Polman said:


> ^^ indeed, at least the line to Toulouse must be a quick win. For the longer term Marseille (or another city) to Nice must be considered in order to reduce travel times to all major regions to less than five, no, four hours from Paris. And it would substantially benefit those regions/cities as commuting over long distances will be easier as well.


To Nice, part of the high speed line was planned to be used by TER trains, so perhaps there is a chance.

By the way, a section of the Le Mans-Rennes high speed line is also used by TER trains.


----------



## tgva325

flierfy said:


> M. Macron sounds like a real Parisian already. Outside the Île-de-France, there is no such thing as an everyday train,


Sorry, but there are a lot of lines with daily trains... so there is an everyday train...



> at least not for the vast majority of the people. There are once-in-a-while trains at best.


But most of them (included those lines with only one train a day) run everyday.



> And these trains are more likely to be TGVs than regional ones. So if he decides to invest in 'everyday train' rather than LGVs then it means nothing less than a shift from the province to the capital. This change in policy won't be too popular in places like Nice or Toulouse, which would have been next to be connected to the LGV network, I reckon.


I don´t agree.
But, as usual, we must wait to see what exactly he wanted to said...


----------



## ArtManDoo

tgva325 said:


> Sorry, but there are a lot of lines with daily trains... so there is an everyday train...


It seems that France needs some regular interval timetable, etc hourly or half hourly services, today it seems to be rather some trains a day that is not sufficient. But yes let's see what the new approach will bring.


----------



## ArtManDoo

The population density along the coast seems to be quite high... The LGV-s are coming until Marseille and Montpellier, it seems to be reasonable to bring them until Nice and Perpingnan, the population is there. The extra benefit would come if the regional services could use the LGV-s in those areas, I imagine the classic lines are at capacity already. I think both LGV and classic line would see lot's of usage. Also the hs service Narbonne - Marseille - Nice could be introduced as well, or even Nice - Barcelona - Madrid.


----------



## Suburbanist

Bourdeaux-Toulouse-Montepellier TGV is a necessity IMHO.


----------



## tgva325

parcdesprinces said:


> ^^ Such as the "private" Thello company tries to do in PACA (aka Marseille-Nice region) right? opcorn:
> 
> 
> PS: not to mention the "very regional shifty" pan/trans-European _Riviera-Express_ (Nice-Moscow seasonal train)
> 
> 
> 
> :runaway:


Those are not TER services :lol:


----------



## snot

Minato ku said:


> Most of those passengers are parisians commuters.


Probably, but that doesn't mean the rest of France doesn't have commuters. I guess bigger provincial towns have commuters to. 



> The reality is that most of France has a too low density to be suitable for rail network like in England or Netherlands.


France has still some denser area's and a lot of possible connection suitable for decent intercity trains that run at 160-220km/h. I don't know the local network but what about Rennes-Nantes-Bordeaux, Montpelier-Toulouse, Metz-Nancy, Clermont-Ferrand-Lyon,...
Improving the network is complementary to the LGV network, and strengthen it, or do you want the LGV sucking all the money out of the rest of the network that is already bad?


----------



## parcdesprinces

tgva325 said:


> Those are not TER services :lol:


Of course!




I was joking around, actually.


----------



## flierfy

sotonsi said:


> Also the six counties aren't in Britain,


Britain is a synonym for the whole United Kingdom and not just for Great Britain.



sotonsi said:


> It's not star-shaped. And London is in that 'midlands' area where traffic is naturally funnelled - you can't get from Kent to the rest of the country easily without going through London.


You get to Brighton and further along the south coast at least.



sotonsi said:


> But Paris is similarly asymetrical, and unlike London, it's totally bypassable - as seen by Route des Estuaires on the sea side (where with London you end up with no fixed crossing more than 30km downstream of Tower Bridge - still easily in the urban area).
> 
> Lille to Lorraine would be similar to the Bristol to Birmingham rail corridor in the UK, but you have trains running down TGV-Nord, circling Paris (on something London doesn't and will not ever have) and heading out on TGV-Est.


Lorraine isn't a town though. And this is one of the reason why there are so few rail services in France past Paris. The population outside the Île-de-France is simply way too dispersed to serve them with this mode of transportation.


----------



## 437.001

tgva325 said:


> line between Clemont Ferrand and Ussel will be reopened


Source?


----------



## tgva325

flierfy said:


> Lorraine isn't a town though. And this is one of the reason why there are so few rail services in France past Paris. The population outside the Île-de-France is simply way too dispersed to serve them with this mode of transportation.


That is a big nonsense.


----------



## LtBk

How would you guys rank the French passenger rail system on a 1-10 scale? Isn't Macron planning to improve the existing lines or something?


----------



## BlackArt-ist

6/10

Does the job here, with those regular and annoying flaws we've discussed a zillion times. I don't have much to complain though regarding the line I happen to use weekly (Mâcon<>Lyon Perrache). Good frequencies, decent travel times despite Lyon Part-Dieu's unresolved bottleneck, comfy rolling stock (until they decide to scrap all the remnants of their Corail fleet), although not much suited when used on rush hours. 

Part-Dieu's concourse could probably rank somewhere in the top 10 most cramped/worst designed european train stations.


----------



## Axelferis

Sncf loses money with a majority of TGV lines. If you are not connected to Paris it is a commercial suicide.
This why the design of network. A lot of parisians are not parisian born. A lot want to be back in their mother region at the end of day. TGV looks like to a giant metro link with province.
You can live in Le Mans and go work in Paris just the day long. It's the reality.
Paris has the jobs but province has the real sweet quality life.


----------



## tuktoyaktuk

*Future TGV high speed train Alstom Ademe*
http://www.busetcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/AGV_TGVfutur.jpeg


----------



## hans280

Axelferis said:


> If you are not connected to Paris it is a commercial suicide.
> This why the design of network. A lot of parisians are not parisian born. A lot want to be back in their mother region at the end of day. TGV looks like to a giant metro link with province.
> You can live in Le Mans and go work in Paris just the day long. It's the reality.
> Paris has the jobs but province has the real sweet quality life.


Do many people use the TGVs to commute, though? I would have thought that the lifeblood of this system is business people and well-heeled single travellers who are going to spend a few days in another part of France. Here, of course, it matters that Paris makes up such a high proportion of the French urban, competitive economy. (There's also "economy" in other parts of the country, of course, but a fair bit of it is agriculture, tourism, local product and service delivery, etc.) Therefore, there's a high likelihood that a business traveler is either on the way from Paris or to Paris.


----------



## Gusiluz

tuktoyaktuk said:


> *Future TGV high speed train Alstom Ademe*
> http://www.busetcar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/AGV_TGVfutur.jpeg


TGV du Futur Ademe (Agence de l'environnement et de la maîtrise de l'énergie). 

http://www.journaldelenvironnement.net/article/l-ademe-et-alstom-imaginent-le-tgv-du-futur,66390



> Un prototype de ce TGV nouveau devrait être livré dans les 3 ans, offrant une capacité de 750 places par rame (contre 500 aujourd’hui). Sa consommation d’électricité sera fortement réduite –de l’ordre de 35%- tandis que le coût de maintenance sera optimisé. La SNCF est le premier consommateur d’électricité en France: 7 térawattheures selon RTE, soit 1,5% de la consommation nationale. L’objectif est aussi d’offrir des prix plus accessibles que les TGV actuels.


----------



## hans280

^^That's a good-looking train. Neat, sleek lines all around. It does look a bit like Bombardier's Zefiro and some of the newest Chinese trains. I wonder whether some of those companies cooperate, or there's simply a fashion in train designs like most other things? 

The article reads as if we're quite some way from seeing such a train in passenger service: it says that we are four years away from the production of a prototype. And, as I think we all know, there's another fair distance between a prototype and an operational train. But the fact of the matter is that Alstom is under a lot of pressure - financial and political - these days. A company in that situation often resorts to going public with its "great plans for the future" in order to wow the public and the politicians.


----------



## 3737

Looks good.
Although the train concept isn't that new.
It was first called the speedelia which was released at innotrans in 2010.









(Also look at the never implemented Duplex design).
Link

Specs sheet.

Also it's kind of strange why Alstom didn't produce a prototype in 2010.
Would've cost a lot of time.


----------



## 33Hz

Yes this was originally offered for what became the Freccia Rossa 1000 in Italy.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/alstom-extends-high-speed-train-family.html


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## jm1975

*TGV punctuality*

I have a problem to understand the official punctuality statistics for the TGV train, which according to SNCF was about 90% for the whole year 2016 (trains arriving exactly on time or within 5 minutes delay). I stayed in France for two weeks in July and i used the TGV ten times (i am a great fan of high-speed train traveling in general). 4 out of 10 times the train was delayed (for 30, 25, 10 and 40 minutes respectively). I picked up the fastest train from Marseille to Paris (3 hours 5 minutes) and it was 25 minutes late (we stopped to a complete halt for about 10 minutes just after Lyon Airport Station due to an alarm notification from a forward train, according to the information we received from our driver). The delay of 40 minutes was at a journey from Paris Est to Champagne - Ardennes TGV station, which is a distance covered in about 40 minutes actually!! (We departed Paris Est some minutes later than the scheduled arrival time!!!). Regarding the 6 other journeys (Paris - Bordeaux and return, Paris - Rennes and return, Marseille - Avignon), the train was not exactly on time, but within the 5-minute delay margin. On the contrary i used the slower Intercites service four times (Paris - Orleans and return, Paris - Bayeux and return) and it was always on time without even one minute delay.
So be careful if you are planning using the service and having connections involved.
Reliability and punctuality of TGV are the main problems for this otherwise excellent technological marvel and in my opinion the French have to learn a lot from the reliability of the Japanese Shinkansen, which has a punctuality of one minute delay on average for the whole system.


----------



## Nexis

*High speed Train TGV InOui,Thalys, Eurostar, OUIGO in France*


----------



## The Polwoman

jm1975 said:


> I have a problem to understand the official punctuality statistics for the TGV train, which according to SNCF was about 90% for the whole year 2016 (trains arriving exactly on time or within 5 minutes delay). I stayed in France for two weeks in July and i used the TGV ten times (i am a great fan of high-speed train traveling in general). 4 out of 10 times the train was delayed (for 30, 25, 10 and 40 minutes respectively). I picked up the fastest train from Marseille to Paris (3 hours 5 minutes) and it was 25 minutes late (we stopped to a complete halt for about 10 minutes just after Lyon Airport Station due to an alarm notification from a forward train, according to the information we received from our driver). The delay of 40 minutes was at a journey from Paris Est to Champagne - Ardennes TGV station, which is a distance covered in about 40 minutes actually!! (We departed Paris Est some minutes later than the scheduled arrival time!!!). Regarding the 6 other journeys (Paris - Bordeaux and return, Paris - Rennes and return, Marseille - Avignon), the train was not exactly on time, but within the 5-minute delay margin. On the contrary i used the slower Intercites service four times (Paris - Orleans and return, Paris - Bayeux and return) and it was always on time without even one minute delay.
> So be careful if you are planning using the service and having connections involved.
> Reliability and punctuality of TGV are the main problems for this otherwise excellent technological marvel and in my opinion the French have to learn a lot from the reliability of the Japanese Shinkansen, which has a punctuality of one minute delay on average for the whole system.




The TGV delays are also spilling over to neighbouring countries and even the Netherlands: Thalys trains delayed from France or Belgium are frequent and mostly they are less than ten minutes. In these few minutes the IC-Direct from Breda cannot enter the HSR to Rotterdam (and Amsterdam).


----------



## kokomo

LtBk said:


> How would you guys rank the French passenger rail system on a 1-10 scale? Isn't Macron planning to improve the existing lines or something?


Last year I used it quite frequently during weeks before the Euro.
I took TER and TGV services, also Thalys. 
Well, punctuality was more than acceptable, did not suffer any cancellation, trains were modern and clean (even TER in the Cote-d-azur which I had read were old RIO coaches refurbished poorly and full of grafitti), stations were rather comfortable (although Nice ville was under refurbishment, Gare du Nord had an impressive clean up and Montparnasse is ugly always) and information was available almost everywhere. I speak French fluently so I had no problem at all asking for _renseignement_if so required and staff were polite. 
Must say that I was not disappointed. I'd give it 8/10


----------



## Nexis

*Zachód słońca z TGV / Sunset with the TGV high-speed trains*


----------



## Axelferis

Alstom makes the better trains,tramways.
No one can contest that :cheers:


----------



## Suburbanist

What is the current state of the recurrent SNCF strikes against pension reforms?


----------



## MarcVD

Axelferis said:


> Alstom makes the better trains,tramways.
> No one can contest that :cheers:


Which is certainly the reason why they have only sold a few Prima locos to Morocco while Bombardier sells his TRAXX and Siemens his Vectron by the hundreds...


----------



## ADAMASTOR01

Axelferis said:


> Alstom makes the better trains,tramways.
> No one can contest that :cheers:



LOL!!!French do everything better!!it's well known!:lol:
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!


----------



## ddes

I read that CRC was complaining about how the Velaro's depreciation is very significant, as in, its performance really deteoriates very fast over time. The reality is very few or no train has been able to surpass the peformance of the Reseau, now inherited by TGV Duplex. The fact that DB kept changing trains for newer versions should be a hint, I suppose.


----------



## da_scotty

Suburbanist said:


> What is the current state of the recurrent SNCF strikes against pension reforms?


Strike Strike Strike Strike? hno:


----------



## Suburbanist

da_scotty said:


> Strike Strike Strike Strike? hno:


I know that one or two strikes don't change much travel patterns or annual revenue, but SNCF unions are in the bitter fight of their lives. I reckon it is very hard to justify their pension schemes when SNCF/RSF debt was bailed-out by the state, and that the years where driving a loco was a really a body-wearing occupation warranting retirement at 50 are long gone.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Wilhem275 said:


> Interesting bidding procedure, to choose Alstom... how surprising.


Despite there is no formal prohibition to buy foreign rolling stock, most rolling stock is still projected or at least built from local builders, for all countries.

All ICE trains are built by Siemens, all TGVs by Alstom, most HSTs used in Italy are built there (the exception are a part of the ETR 575 AGVs, I think), as most RENFE HSTs are built by Talgo (together with Bombardier) and CAF. Swiss trains are nowadays built by Stadler, and also the Twindexx are partly assembled in Bombardier's plant in Villeneuve.

Sure, there are exceptions, or components may come from other countries, still it seems that state companies like to buy from national builders, if there is one. Even Britain which has not a train builder anymore managed to have a Hitachi plant on its soil where part of the Class 800 and derviatives are built.

And this without thinking of the Buy America act (which says that vehicles bought with federal money must be for a high percentage of value be built in th USA) and the Chinese and Japanese markets.


----------



## M-NL

MarcVD said:


> Which is certainly the reason why they have only sold a few Prima locos to Morocco while Bombardier sells his TRAXX and Siemens his Vectron by the hundreds...


Just a few incoherent thoughts on that:
Alstom sold plenty of Primas, just not in Europe. 
Both the TRAXX and Vectron are already certified for many European countries, the Prima isn't.
The Prima is probably more expensive to acquire. 
If you were a leasing company would you buy something completely new or something already proven in use?


----------



## Genbank

MarcVD said:


> Which is certainly the reason why *they have only sold a few Prima locos to Morocco* .


And they are working perfectly thank you! :cheers: Great purchase for us!


----------



## Gusiluz

Coccodrillo said:


> Despite there is no formal prohibition to buy foreign rolling stock, most rolling stock is still projected or at least built from local builders, for all countries.
> 
> All ICE trains are built by Siemens, all TGVs by Alstom, most HSTs used in Italy are built there (the exception are a part of the ETR 575 AGVs, I think), as most RENFE HSTs are built by Talgo (together with Bombardier) and CAF. Swiss trains are nowadays built by Stadler, and also the Twindexx are partly assembled in Bombardier's plant in Villeneuve.
> 
> Sure, there are exceptions, or components may come from other countries, still it seems that state companies like to buy from national builders, if there is one. Even Britain which has not a train builder anymore managed to have a Hitachi plant on its soil where part of the Class 800 and derviatives are built.
> 
> And this without thinking of the Buy America act (which says that vehicles bought with federal money must be for a high percentage of value be built in th USA) and the Chinese and Japanese markets.


Well, that's true in the cases of Germany, France, Japan and Italy, in the latter case the private operator NTV (now Italo) bought AGV from Alstom (then SNCF owned 20% of NTV), but they were manufactured in their most part in Italy.

In Spain it has been very different, Renfe has purchased 56 HST from CAF and 45 from Talgo because they have variable gauge, something that foreign manufacturers can not offer. It also bought, without bidding, 20 + 13 Pendolinos (not tilting) from Alstom, although they were partially manufactured in Spain. In 1999, they *tendered *the purchase of trains for the Madrid-Barcelona LAV, which were awarded to Siemens (26 trains) and to Talgo (first 16 and later another 30). 
And, finally, in 2015 an *international tender* for 15 + 15 HST began, where there was a clause that computed one point out of a total of 35 in the technical evaluation (100 points in total counting the economic part) if the trains were manufactured in Spain. 1%, and Bombardier filed an appeal with the spanish Administrative Court of Contractual Resources (TARC). In its resolution, this court urged the railway company to remove from the terms of the contract the point that favored the manufacture of the order in Spain.
Hitachi left because he did not have, and still do not have, prepared the AT400.


That is to say, it is the same in almost all countries, but not in all. It is clear that this is the country of Don Quixote.


----------



## Sunfuns

Has there ever been serious talk of a merger between Talgo and CAF?


----------



## Gusiluz

I think that are only reviews from outside of companies. 
It is true that are complementary and Talgo is too small but i've never heard anything, not even of analysts bag.

And we are completely off-topic.


----------



## wgerman

Wilhem275 said:


> AGV is no more in production.
> 
> Interesting bidding procedure, to choose Alstom... how surprising.


WHAT? The AGV was sold as the next gen TGV.


----------



## Axelferis

ADAMASTOR01 said:


> LOL!!!French do everything better!!it's well known!:lol:
> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!



How can you contest for train,tramways and metros??


----------



## Wilhem275

wgerman said:


> WHAT? The AGV was sold as the next gen TGV.


 Didn't have any buyers after NTV, I don't know why. As far as I know, Alstom discontinued its production and recycled the technology in the next TGVs.


It seems their plan was to rely on SNCF to buy some, but SNCF changed its mind and the project just died - as a further demonstration of the excessive dependency of rolling stock industries on national operators...


----------



## aquaticko

I know that a lot of LGV's don't have the kind of stopping pattern that benefits from the generally higher acceleration of EMU's, and that their additional cost can be a deterrent, but even given that HSR doesn't seem to be booming globally on quite the scale that we all hoped and expected, to not have an EMU to even offer seems quite odd. (I'll admit to a bit of bias here; the AGV was probably my favorite high-speed train design)

Even France's most significant export success--the Korean KTX-I of the previous decade--is going to have its product replaced in the next few years by a Korean-designed EMU. Is Alstom hoping to get in on the California HSR project, or is exporting not a big priority for them right now? I know that France's rail market is intended to reform over the next couple years; are they hoping for a significant increase in domestic demand?


----------



## Axelferis

I think that after deregulation made, french high speed market will meet high level in activities and selling TGV like pancakes :cheers:
A lot of operators are waiting to share the cake with certains lines like Paris/Bordeaux Paris/Lyon. Lille/Paris


----------



## btrs

Matthieu said:


> I think the competition was last year or the year before, don't remember. Siemens did not submit an offer. Since there is no other competitor Alstom won by default.


Which was irrelevant anyway, since they will be merged at some point in the future (or at least operate as 2 seperate brands under a common holding company).


----------



## btrs

MarcVD said:


> Which is certainly the reason why they have only sold a few Prima locos to Morocco while Bombardier sells his TRAXX and Siemens his Vectron by the hundreds...


On the other hand, Bombardier didn't really succeed in getting the Traxx from the ground in the CIS (Russia+Central Asia) countries, while Alstom sold 500+ locomotives with Prima 2 technology there.. Siemens also got a good piece of the cake there.


----------



## parcdesprinces

bench_mark_2 said:


> When I said that a new Eurostar terminus could be constructed at St Lazare station *Paris-Orléans Station*


Fixed! ^^ = *THAT's* a gorgeous station, ist it?








*©Paris-Projet-ou-Vandalisme.com*





:drool: (I mean, just close this so-called museum, or move it out somwhere in the "Grand Paris" shy name used by many (and not the best ones) to tell.lecture us about the fact that ...yeahh, "banlieues are Paris too.".. = BNord for them I guess... :dunno:



:colbert: |)


----------



## 437.001

bench_mark_2 said:


> Of course, all stations in Paris are amazing and it is quite questionable if Gare Du Nord or St Lazare is prettier. I just think that the area where St Lazare is situated is a little bit more impressive and more central. The opera is just few minutes away.


St Lazare station is absolutely saturated, one of the most in Paris.
Even the extension of the RER E to Mantes-la-Jolie, which will mean the re-routing of the Mantes trains from Nanterre to central Paris via La Défense and Neuilly-Porte Maillot won't ease much of it, as most paths will be occupied by other Transilien services, and also by TER and IC trains to Normandy. The Normandy line itself is pretty saturated, this is why the line between Serqueux and Gisors is being/will be electrified (can anyone confirm if works started?), to take freight trains away from the Seine Valley.



bench_mark_2 said:


> But of course, even now the area around Gare Du Nord looks amazingly and is much more impressive than the area around St Pancras. And the station itself has been improved, the new floor looks really nice.


St Pancras wipes the floor with the Gare du Nord, aesthetics-wise.

Gare du Nord wipes the floor with St Pancras, congestion-wise.



bench_mark_2 said:


> When I said that a new Eurostar terminus could be constructed at St Lazare station, I thought that another RER line (probably F to Montparnasse) would have been built so that less suburban trains will need to terminate there.


Forget about RER F. That won't be built in decades, if ever. 
Besides, RER E is not finished yet! So better finish one before starting the other.

And besides, there's just NO ROOM at St Lazare.


----------



## TER200

parcdesprinces said:


> OK... my bad! wallbash ... But, but, but let me rephrase it, please :
> 
> _"LGV-Nord (ie. Paris-Nord/Paris-CDG) <-> Lille-Europe/Lille-Flandres & beyond = the busiest high speed line in Europe i*n terms of international high-speed services*"_. :tongue2:
> 
> Am I right now ... or am I still missing something about that? dunno: )


 OK, but is it relevant by any mean ?


I mean, whether the train goes to London or Hazebrouck, it takes the same capacity on the line :cheers:.


----------



## parcdesprinces

TER200 said:


> OK, but is it relevant by any mean ?


No, not really indeed... except I looooove to be right! :devil::angel:


:cheers:

:runaway:


----------



## bench_mark_2

437.001 said:


> St Lazare station is absolutely saturated, one of the most in Paris.
> Even the extension of the RER E to Mantes-la-Jolie, which will mean the re-routing of the Mantes trains from Nanterre to central Paris via La Défense and Neuilly-Porte Maillot won't ease much of it, as most paths will be occupied by other Transilien services, and also by TER and IC trains to Normandy. The Normandy line itself is pretty saturated, this is why the line between Serqueux and Gisors is being/will be electrified (can anyone confirm if works started?), to take freight trains away from the Seine Valley.


I would assume that a new underground RER line would allow for more than 500 services per day. I would doubt that the suburban services terminating at St Lazare are more than this number. 




437.001 said:


> St Pancras wipes the floor with the Gare du Nord, aesthetics-wise.
> 
> Gare du Nord wipes the floor with St Pancras, congestion-wise.


I have always though that the facade of Gare Du Nord is very impressive.




437.001 said:


> And besides, there's just NO ROOM at St Lazare.


Maybe, but as I have said, there is no harm in dreaming. The other good thing about St Lazare is that it has a good hotel right next to it, just like St Pancras.


----------



## Ugo Fantozzi




----------



## kokomo

But the ancient Paris-Orléans station today isn't the Orsai museum? A gorgeous place by the way


----------



## parcdesprinces

bench_mark_2 said:


> The other good thing about St Lazare is that *it has a good hotel right next to it*, just like St Pancras.


Just like the Paris-Orléans ^^ (Orsay Museum), Paris-Lyon, Paris-Est and Austerlitz stations have... (or at least had.. the buildings of course being still there...so... feel free to redevelop them into luxury hotels again :happy...


----------



## TER200

SNCF and Alstom announced today an order for 12 additional TGV Euroduplex Océane (similar to the 55 ordered in 2013 and 2017, of which 40 are already in service) trainsets for delivery in 2020-2021.
https://railcolornews.com/2019/07/31/fr-sncf-mobilites-order-more-tgv-oceane-high-speed-trains/ 
https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/sncf-orders-more-euroduplex-trains/

In 2022, SNCF will thus have a total of 230 TGV Duplex trainsets (not including Ouigo which should then have 34 for low-cost services, and Lyria which will have 15 dedicated Euroduplex sets for services to Switzerland) and less than 85 single-deck sets (plus 26 used to Belgium and Switzerland). 
At this moment, the first of the 100 new generation "TGV2020" will enter service.


----------



## JumpUp

Hey 

In 2020, all France-Switzerland TGV (Geneve / Lausanne / Zürich) will be changed to double-deck trains. Is there any plan for Thalys to get new TGV Duplex? Thalys has so many passengers, but still only single-deck TGV trains

THANKS


----------



## TER200

AFAIK, there is absolutely no (publicly disclosed) plan for new trains from Thalys. They are just refurbishing once again.
The PBA and PBKA sets were built in 1996 and 1997, and I estimate they have currently about 9 million km each. A replacement about 2026 sounds technically correct.


----------



## 33Hz

Question: What is the point of the of the Nîmes - Montpellier high speed line? It seems like everything must stop in one or both towns and therefore can't use the line. Furthermore, as I've just discovered, if you get routes behind a freight train or stopping train, you end up being late.


----------



## TER200

One point is to remove the freight trains from the old line, to free paths for more regional services.
Once the new station Nîmes-Pont du Gard is open next December (with interchange to regional trains), about half of TGVs serving the area will move on the new line, serving both new stations.


----------



## intersezioni

From Corriere.it:

June 2020. Next summer. This is the date on which, according to the plans of the Italian State Railways, the Frecciarossa 1000 of Trenitalia (Ferrovie dello Stato group) on the Milan-Paris route: a high-speed journey that according to Fs will last about six hours, announced as competitive, even in the price, compared to the Tgv (which today takes seven hours to cover those 900 km). Thus began the competition of the Italian Railways on the French market, in anticipation of the opening, from December 2020, of the European railway market envisaged in the IV Railway Package. That is the block of laws that completes the liberalization of passenger transport and regulates the right of access for railway operators to the networks of other EU countries.
The Frecciarossa 1000, which the Fs exhibit as a flagship, has been in France since June 26th. The Frecciarossa 1000 has been driven, because it still cannot circulate, which will carry out the tests to travel on the high-speed network of the French Alps, until now the most closed in Europe to competition. The tests are underway in the Tronville en Barrois circuit, in the department of the Meuse, north-east of the country. These are static and dynamic tests to obtain technical admission also in France, both on high-speed and conventional lines. The French should especially appreciate the competition on the Paris-Lyon route, their Milan-Rome. And for December, always in 2020, the launch of the Paris-Marseille is being studied.


----------



## Axelferis

*Bordeaux Saint Jean with new Hall 3*​






*Hall 3:*

















​


----------



## Axelferis

*Gare PARIS Montparnasse*​




























​


----------



## Axelferis

*Marne la Vallée Chessy Disneyland station*​






























​


----------



## Axelferis

*Lille Europe (refurbishment works in progress)*​












​


----------



## Axelferis

*More of Marne la Vallée chessy Disneyland:*




























​


----------



## aquaticko

^^Is that designed to be a Spanish solution platform layout? Seems unusual for a high-speed intercity line.


----------



## Ugo Fantozzi




----------



## eu01

High-speed hospital on rails. Would you have expected it without war?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ I don't think anyone could expect it, except SNCF and Paris SAMU, who did test exercises almost a year ago.
Good for them!

SNCF deploys hospital TGV. Railway Gazette


> SNCF has started transporting Covid-19 patients using a TGV Duplex trainset that has been has adapted as a mobile hospital unit. It is being used to evacuate recuperating patients from hot spot areas where the hospitals are saturated to regions which have spare capacity in their intensive care facilities.
> 
> 
> 
> Described by Minister of Health Olivier Véran as ‘a first for Europe’, the train was first deployed on March 26 to move 20 patients from the Grand Est region to Pays de Loire, the French region least affected by the pandemic. The patients were collected by ambulance from hospitals in Strasbourg and Mulhouse, and will be taken to teaching hospitals in Angers, Nantes, Le Mans and La Roche-sur-Yon.
> 
> 
> 
> According to SNCF President Jean-Pierre Farandou, the double-deck trainset can carry up to 25 patients. There is provision for four people in each trailer car, where the stretchers are supported above the seats, which have not been removed. Each vehicle has a six-strong medical team, comprising an anesthetist, a junior doctor, a nurse anesthetist and three nurses. The buffet car has been adapted as a ‘medical space’ in case the condition of a patient deteriorates en route.
> 
> 
> 
> The onboard medical teams have been drawn from the Paris hospitals public assistance service and regional hospitals in Nantes and Angers, under the co-ordination of the Paris-based Service d’Aide Médicale Urgente, which has an established co-operation arrangement with SNCF. The TGV carries a double strength crew, with two drivers and additional onboard staff.
> 
> 
> 
> Transport Minister Jean-Baptise Djebarri said SNCF would also be making available overnight train stock for use by the medical services if required.
> 
> 
> 
> Last year, SNCF and the Paris SAMU undertook a joint exercise to test the concept of a mobile rail hospital in the event of a pandemic or terrorist attack. On May 21-22 2019, 400 people took part in Exercise Chardon, which simulated the transfer to Paris of seriously injured victims from a supposed terrorist attack in Metz. ‘We took the example of a terrorist attack but the same approach could be used for pandemics or technological disasters’, the head of SAMU Paris Professor Pierre Carli told local media at the time.


Why didn't they use night trains?


----------



## eu01

Gusiluz said:


> Why didn't they use night trains?


Not enough space for respirators and monitors? And for resuscitation, if necessary?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ There were even Corail ambulance cars, in a homogeneous composition, with their central door for easy introduction of the stretchers. These cars were used mainly for the pilgrimages to Lourdes.


----------



## TER200

Gusiluz said:


> Why didn't they use night trains?


Because they barely still exist in this country ?
The concept was initiated after terror attacks, and thus required quick availability of the train in the involved city. This leaves you with TGVs or widely used regional trains (AGC for example). Couchette cars would not be available fast in any French city...
Also I think the space in a compartment is not enough.



Gusiluz said:


> ^^ There were even Corail ambulance cars, in a homogeneous composition, with their central door for easy introduction of the stretchers. These cars were used mainly for the pilgrimages to Lourdes.


Those are out of service for years, and I'm not sure they would have been usable. I think there is no electric power available inside, which is required here. The goal is not tu put the most people in a train, but to build a mobile intensive care hospital, and make the work inside as easy as possible for the doctors. Using the isolated lower deck rooms of the TGV Duplex, leaving the upper deck for staff circulation, is a good point here.


----------



## Cuthbert 80

This video really highlights the sensation of speed on a TGV duplex at 320 km/h


----------



## TorT

Cuthbert 80 said:


> This video really highlights the sensation of speed on a TGV duplex at 320 km/h


Amazing.


----------



## aquaticko

It wasn't the intent at the time, but France really, really deserves praise for investing in electrified HSR and nuclear all those decades ago. No full-fledged country of its level of development that isn't naturally blessed with mountains for hydropower or a small population has anything close to its CO2 emissions. Truly a miracle of technology.

Vive la France, mes amis.


----------



## coth

Cuthbert 80 said:


> This video really highlights the sensation of speed on a TGV duplex at 320 km/h


There are a lot of full route cab videos on YouTube for TGV. No for Shinkansen though. But load of full route side viewes.

Just few for example.


----------



## Gusiluz

There is already a train (2N2 3UH 807) from *Rielsfera *(SNCF's subsidiary to compete in Spain) travelling here, or so it seems.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269343397216751627














Does anyone know if they've been remodeled? Cafeteria, classes, seats...
And what will be their corporate colours?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## tgva325

aquaticko said:


> It wasn't the intent at the time, but France really, really deserves praise for investing in electrified HSR and nuclear all those decades ago. No full-fledged country of its level of development that isn't naturally blessed with mountains for hydropower or a small population has anything close to its CO2 emissions. Truly a miracle of technology.
> 
> Vive la France, mes amis.


There are a lot of mountains in France and also hydropower (10,3 % of the energy production, which is not bad).


----------



## Axelferis

*Lille Europe refurbishment (with my phone):*


----------



## Axelferis

*Gare du Nord (with my phone):*


----------



## ZeusUpsistos

> *'Train of the future': SNCF's TGV 'M' to be in service by Paris 2024 Olympics*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France's next-generation high-speed train will be in service by the 2024 Olympic games in Paris, the SNCF has confirmed.
> 
> Dubbed the "train of the future," the first of the new TGV "M" trains will roll off the production line in winter 2023, according to Alain Krakovitch, managing director of SNCF Voyages.
> 
> It is anticipated the newly-designed high-speed trains will then be in service by June 2024.
> 
> "It's a train that will be rolled out for the Olympic Games," Krakovitch told AFP news agency [...]


----------



## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼 
Will the "full autonomous accessibility" be non-dependant on platform heights?

I say this with international services in mind.


----------



## tgva325

ZeusUpsistos said:


>


UGLY, ugly, ugly.


----------



## Vishek

I got confused between "Avelia" and "Acela" and thought they were the new trains for the US Acela Express...

Instantly was enamored by the facilities on the train and the fact it was double deck. I was hoping to ride it one day, but the 2024 Olympic Games are a long time away. Though I wonder the new trains in China (Fuxing) have a top speed of speeds in excess of 400 km/h. 

Also, that animation where the train breaks apart in the middle of running looks a bit scary...


----------



## Short

ZeusUpsistos said:


>


Does this video mean that only cardboard cutouts of passengers are allowed to travel?


----------



## TER200

Short said:


> Does this video mean that only cardboard cutouts of passengers are allowed to travel?


Yep, that's the new plan to fight the pandemic. Trains are forbidden to humans 🤣


----------



## TER200

437.001 said:


> 🔼 🔼 🔼
> Will the "full autonomous accessibility" be non-dependant on platform heights?
> 
> I say this with international services in mind.


I think it's primarily for 55 cm platforms... don't know if the german stations with 76 cm platforms are also considered.


----------



## 437.001

TER200 said:


> I think it's primarily for 55 cm platforms... don't know if the german stations with 76 cm platforms are also considered.


Or the Spanish HS ones, which have the same platform heights as the German ones, from what I read in your post.


----------



## Axelferis

construction of new TGV has started.
French state ordered 100 new trains.
First deliveries scheduled in 2023.
The train improves by 200 seats the capacity reaching 700 seats comparing to the old generation of 500 seats.


----------



## Suburbanist

European countries really dropped the ball in not adopting the Dutch platform height when they started to build HSR. Had they done that, many things would be easier to manage regarding train construction, tilting trains would not have problems with handicap access etc. Even a new 1100mm standard for platform height could have been proposed and adopted progressively.


----------



## Gusiluz

Axelferis said:


> construction of new TGV has started.
> French state ordered 100 new trains.
> First deliveries scheduled in 2023.
> The train improves by 200 seats the capacity reaching 700 seats comparing to the old generation of 500 seats.


Why is it now called the TGV M?
Why have they made shorter cars? 18 meters instead of 18.7



437.001 said:


> Or the Spanish HS ones, which have the same platform heights as the German ones, from what I read in your post.


The height of the platforms above the rail is 550 mm in the stations of the line from Madrid to Seville (Atocha increased in 2010), and 760 mm (Talgo) in the second generation lines. These are the two heights permitted by the ETI interoperability standards, although the height of 760 mm ("German") allows a step to be reduced in access to all trains, as opposed to the height of 550 mm ("French", which is why to leave the TGV on the Barcelona Sants platform you have to climb a slight slope).


----------



## NCT

The standardisation of platform and floor heights in Europe has been done poorly. Almost all other regions have gone for a standard 'high floor' - Europe is actually increasingly the odd one out with a hodge-podge of different platform heights and non-continuous train floor-heights.


----------



## Wilhem275

I agree, and it happened with trams as well. We invented a number of always disfunctional interior and technical layouts just to avoid laying down some extra bricks.


----------



## Slartibartfas

Low floor trams do serve a purpose and offer way larger fexibility in barrier free tramstop layouts, especially in space limited locations. As trams are commonly contained systems I am not sure what huge advantage forced standardisation would offer.


----------



## M-NL

NCT said:


> The standardisation of platform and floor heights in Europe has been done poorly. Almost all other regions have gone for a standard 'high floor' - Europe is actually increasingly the odd one out with a hodge-podge of different platform heights and non-continuous train floor-heights.


Like everything EU it's a compromise. Basically they inventoried all the heights in use, picked 55 cm and 76 cm as the TSI standard, but still allowed an enormous amount of exceptions.

A platform height somewhere in the 110 cm - 125 cm range would seem best to me. It allows for level boarding and full-continuous floor single deck trains without needing any floor height differences and level boarding double deck train with the doors over the bogies. This range is used in Russia, Japan, USA (NEC) and with a lot of metro systems. Yes, you lose the possibility for a fully continuous upper deck on double deck trains with this platform height. The other option with very low platforms makes for weird single deck trains.


----------



## Vishek

^ Surely having a fully continuous upper deck is more important than platform height?


----------



## TER200

Gusiluz said:


> Why have they made shorter cars? 18 meters instead of 18.7


To fit a ninth one in the same 200 m overall length (the reduced length of the power cars provides the most of the needed space).
Also, I think having 9 cars instead of 8 reduces the axle weight problem, when you want to sit 20% more people on the same train : that's one bogie more. 
Or putting it the other way, each car will be slightly shorter, with a slight increase in capacity. Building 8 longer cars instead could pose weight and possibly loading gauge problems.

The "M" in the new name stands for "modern", "modular" and maybe other words.


----------



## TER200

Vishek said:


> ^ Surely having a fully continuous upper deck is more important than platform height?


In the specific case of a long-distance double-deck train, yes. 
But in all other cases (including a commuter double-decker for example) it has no significant advantage and generally hinders train accessibility (you have to build very convoluted solutions like the Omneo/Regio2N train to provide 55 cm access and fit in the french loading gauge).


----------



## 437.001

Gusiluz said:


> The height of the platforms above the rail is 550 mm in the stations of the line from Madrid to Seville (Atocha increased in 2010), and 760 mm (Talgo) in the second generation lines. These are the two heights permitted by the ETI interoperability standards, although the height of 760 mm ("German") allows a step to be reduced in access to all trains, as opposed to the height of 550 mm ("French", which is why to leave the TGV on the Barcelona Sants platform you have to climb a slight slope).


I think Ciudad Real station has also seen its platforms heightened?
It has certainly been reformed very recently.


----------



## M-NL

TER200 said:


> Vishek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ Surely having a fully continuous upper deck is more important than platform height?
> 
> 
> 
> In the specific case of a long-distance double-deck train, yes.
Click to expand...

Even in that case, I would argue no. If you take a German DOSTO RE or IC2 or a Dutch VIRM or DDZ, when you have two conductors, when you enter a carriage one checks the tickets upstairs and one downstairs and they meet at the other end of the carriage. You can't do that with a continuous upper deck.
Also to get to that continuous upper deck, you need to climb usually rather steep, usually curved and usually narrow stairs first. Good luck doing that with heavy suitcases. Lesser mobile people can't climb those stairs and are just as limited on low-entry double deck trains as they are on high-entry trains. Also downstairs toilet facilities are a requirement for low-entry trains, because of that.
The best solution would be higher trains altogether, where the lower deck is on the same height as on single deck train and the upper deck on top of that (like the Ultra Dome). I don't know if that would be stable enough for 320 km/h high speed trains and it certainly wouldn't fit into the common European loading gauges.


----------



## dyonisien

M-NL said:


> A platform height somewhere in the 110 cm - 125 cm range would seem best to me. [...] This range is used in Russia, Japan, [...].


This may be true of Japan, but is false in Russia and in the USA (outside the Eastern corridor) and in most countries in Europe, where international trains run since about a century and a half. The odd station with lower platforms can always be dealt with, until the best of worlds has arrived.


----------



## Vishek

India, Soviets and the US have huge loading gauges where you can literally stack two cargo containers on top of each other to achieve what you wanted, so it would certainly be a possibility to develop.

The proposed bilevel trains for the US by the Japanese have a sustained speed requirement of 200 km/h.


----------



## TER200

M-NL said:


> Even in that case, I would argue no. If you take a German DOSTO RE or IC2 or a Dutch VIRM or DDZ, when you have two conductors, when you enter a carriage one checks the tickets upstairs and one downstairs and they meet at the other end of the carriage. You can't do that with a continuous upper deck.


Yes you can, if there are stairs at each end like in the swiss IC2000 and FV-Dosto (but one of the conductors will do all the stairs and the other, none).
But articulated cars mean shorter cars, and thus you shall not put 2 doors and 2 stairs in one TGV car. It also means there is not much space over the bogie to fit a complete platform at ~ 1m height.


----------



## Wilhem275

Slartibartfas said:


> Low floor trams do serve a purpose and offer way larger fexibility in barrier free tramstop layouts, especially in space limited locations. As trams are commonly contained systems I am not sure what huge advantage forced standardisation would offer.


I very much like the system applied in Stuttgart, they found ways to fit consistently high platforms throughout the town. The most interesting feature is that, where space was really limited to fit a proper ramp from street to platform level, they simply lowered the trackbed:














. Lange umstritten - An der Haltestelle Wilhelmsplatz (früher Badstraße) in Stuttgart-Bad Cannstatt war der Hochbahnsteigbau lange ... - Bahnbilder.de


... umstritten. Doch Ende 2010 wurde diese Bahnsteige zusammen mit der neuen Haltestelle Ebitzweg in Betrieb genommen und damit ist der Einsatz von .... Foto, 09.06.2011 1024x680 Pixel, Gisela, Matthias und Jonas Frey



www.bahnbilder.de





















File:Stuttgart Bad Cannstatt • Haltestelle Wilhelmsplatz Badstraße 03.JPG - Wikimedia Commons







commons.wikimedia.org





We're too much off topic here, but in general I think the advantages of an internal flat layout, at least on single deck trains/trams, were not given the proper value when compared to the solution we ended up with.


----------



## Axelferis

Gusiluz said:


> Why is it now called the TGV M?



« M » like Modularity


----------



## ArtManDoo

M-NL said:


> Like everything EU it's a compromise. Basically they inventoried all the heights in use, picked 55 cm and 76 cm as the TSI standard, but still allowed an enormous amount of exceptions.
> 
> A platform height somewhere in the 110 cm - 125 cm range would seem best to me. It allows for level boarding and full-continuous floor single deck trains without needing any floor height differences and level boarding double deck train with the doors over the bogies. This range is used in Russia, Japan, USA (NEC) and with a lot of metro systems. Yes, you lose the possibility for a fully continuous upper deck on double deck trains with this platform height. The other option with very low platforms makes for weird single deck trains.


Unfortunately the thing not that straightforward. 55mm is pretty perfect for most of the lines. If to build 110 or 55, the difference of work required is heavy. Also every person must climb and go down extra 55mm in case of 110mm. For HS the story is somewhat different, but I assume we will see pretty soon the solutions without axles and independent wheels, which allow more-less stepless floor within the waggons at 55mm, double deckers sure are the different case. 

Regarding rural lines, maybe 20mm would be good to allow. 

For crazy mass transit, e.g. urban rail lines, except the tram, at moment maybe still something similar to high platforms are required but from rolling stock perspective, maybe the option to come lower is already there.


----------



## Coryza

Nowadays the train takes about 6h and 25m. The fastest connection between Paris and Valence is 02h:10m. On the new section (branch-Nimes-Montpellier) the TGV are not running at maximum speed currently (220 km/h instead of 300 km/h). It was envisioned that the trains from Paris could reach Montpellier in *under 3 hours (!) *once full-speed is allowed (fastest connection currently: 03h04m, with only a stop at Nimes).

Between Perpignan and Barcelona the quickest connection is 1h:21m, which is not quick enough as trains often arrive earlier on that route based from my experience. That's a total of ~4h:20 minutes on the current high-speed tracks.

The distance between Perpignan and Montpellier is about 158 km, without stops at Narbonne and Beziers I'd say this should be doable in ~40 minutes once the high-speed railway has been constructed. Therefore I'd say 5h is realistic.


----------



## hrrAd

As I said we have discussed this options recently so I have them fresh and clear.



NCT said:


> Paris - Montpellier Sud de France is 3:12 according to Google Maps


 I do'nt know what Google shows you but for me it says that the best time is 3:26 h for a Ouigo semidirect and very soon in the morning.

Someone gave a Google trip option similar to you in the local forum but we never found it again.



NCT said:


> so I think a theoretical non-stop 3 hours should be possible?


Who knows... but it seems too optimistic.

For Spanish services at least, the experience says never expect better travel times for a future service than for existing service.

BTW long services non-stop are not very usual, at least on Spain. It is difficult to complete a train like this without the passengers of intermediate stops. There are 6 hours HS services from Barcelona to the other side (the longest, Barcelona-Malaga, almost 1.100 km on HSL) and no one is non-stop.



NCT said:


> I didn't realise Barcelona to Perpignan was this slow, though I notice from the south the line is built to allow a Perpignan bypass? I wonder what the non-stop journey time would be between Barcelona and Montpellier Sud de France be bypassing Perpignan. The distance is little over 300 km so a sub 2-hour journey time should be possible.


The entry to Perpignan can be by-passed, yes, but it is only a few minutes. The 1:20 h is spent along all the journey, not on a specific slow point. Is it a very low average speed for a HSL? May it be, but it is what it is.


----------



## NCT

My latest search: train 6279 6:26 Gare de Lyon - Montpellier Sud de France 9:30, 3h4m with a stop at Nimes Pont-du-Gard.

Paris - Barcelona is a much stronger market than Barcelona - Malaga so would be much less reliant on inter-mediate stops. I think it'd be possible to fill an hourly train stopping at Lyon Airport and Sud de France only and still be around the 5-hour mark.

As for the 1h20 Barcelona to Perpignan time - I think we should treat that as ~1h15 - counting only the time to the junction between the passively-provisioned straight route and the spur to Perpignan station.


----------



## hrrAd

To add some data, please check the post that @jotaerre posted on the local forum. Is the speed limit table of the line from Madrid to French border.

Barcelona is on the middle of the line (sheet 4/6). The French border is where it ends (sheet 6/6).

I think there are further speed limitations due to freights on the line (200 km/h when there is a freight train on the other track I think, due to air impact when crossing).



jotaerre said:


> Fijaos que abajo de cada página, aparece la fecha inicial de publicación (2016) y el añejo en que fue modificada la página en cuestión.
> En este caso, las páginas 3 y 4 fueron modificadas por el anejo 11en diciembre de 2019 por:
> *"Línea 050 (pag 3 y 4 de 6 par, 3 y 4 de 6 impar): Inclusión de Velocidad Específica para las vías 3 y 4 de Camp de Tarragona. Alta de la dependencia Bif. La Gatellada"*. Es decir, fue al incluir en el cuadro todo el tema alrededor de la Variante de Vandellós.
> 
> Otro detalle. A la derecha de cada página figura un 1 rodeado por una circunferencia. Eso es ETRMS nivel 1. A la salida de Madrid es un punto negro lo que se ve: No hay ERTMS
> 
> Lo que no tengo son las Limitaciones Temporales de Velocidad.


----------



## Coryza

Currently the fastest time between Paris and Montpellier is 3h4m (*currently not operating due to Covid*), with a speed restriction between Montpellier and the Valence-Marseille high-speed line (220 km/h instead of 300 km/h). As soon as that restriction is gone, under 3 hours is easy- even with 1 or 2 additional stops.


----------



## NCT

Do we know that the 220km/h speed restriction between Montpellier and the Valence-Marseille line is likely to be gone? And what's necessitating this restriction in the first place? Thanks.


----------



## Coryza

"Construction of the line, which connects Montpellier to Paris in 3 hours 5 minutes , began at the end of 2013 for entry into service at reduced speed ( 220 km / h ) for passengers in 2018. Subsequent upgrading of signaling in ERTMS2 would allow traffic at 300 km / h . " - Contournement ferroviaire de Nîmes et de Montpellier — Wikipédia


----------



## TER200

It would also require the removal of the freight trains on this line. 
And currently, freight is the main use of the CNM, to relieve capacity on the old line for regional services. Moving the high-speed trains on the new line significantly worsens the service for Montpellier (as the new station "Sud de France" is badly connected), so about half of them still use the old line and central stations.

So I'm not sure this upgrade will ever happen (especially if the freight traffic finally increases again... it can not get much lower).


----------



## Sunfuns

Not sure about feasibility of Paris-Barcelona traffic, but there would be a fully high speed line all the way from Amsterdam to Sevilla. Perhaps a high speed night train in the right season?


----------



## TER200

I see two problems :

HSLs are usually closed at night for maintenance, at least in France (ad probably Spain also). So running night trains regularly here would be difficult o organize...
it would require specific rolling stock (unless of course you use a standard high-speed trains with seats only), something expensive which would thus need to be used every day year-round.


----------



## davide84

A 6h Paris - Barcelona would be long but still interesting to some market, similar to Paris - Milan I think.


----------



## 437.001

NCT said:


> Montpellier - Perpignan should close the gap and create a continuous high-speed line between Paris and Barcelona. Paris to Barcelona in a little over 4 hours should be possible once this link is built?


No, not really.
The main problems are:

1) Montpellier to Nîmes is limited to 220km/h because it is a mixed line, so there's freight. Top speed 300km/h though.

2) Barcelona to Figueres is limited to 200km/h for the same reason. Besides, this line being the execution of the oldest HSL project in Spain (which took forever to build), the top speed between Barcelona and Girona is only 250km/h.

3) Paris to Lyon is the first HSL in Europe, so it has aged, it allows only for 280km/h. I'm not certain whether there's room for improvement or not. Besides, it is the most congested HSL in Europe, with a continuous flow of TGV's, so that's quite limiting when designing the timetable patterns (and the stopping patterns of trains).



hrrAd said:


> We discussed this on the Spanish forum and it is impossible. The time with the HSL finished may be close to 6 h.
> 
> Now Paris-Montpellier is 3:30 and Perpignan-Barcelona is 1:20. Even if the train is instatly teleported between Montpellier and Perpignan the travel won't be least than 4:55.
> 
> If the time Montpellier-Perpignan were 45 m (half than now on the current line) Paris-Barcelona would be 5:40 h.


I think the main room for improvement would be if the POCL HSL would be built, as that would allow faster trains between Paris and Lyon, while at the same time releasing a lot of capacity.

Ideally though, the fastest possible route between Paris and Montpellier/Barcelona would be Paris-Gien-Nevers-Moulins-Clermont Ferrand-Issoire-Brioude-Saint Flour-Saint Chély d'Apcher-Marvejols-Sévérac le Château-Millau-Bédarieux-Faugères, and from there on to Montpellier via Paulhan, or to Béziers-Narbonne-Perpignan-Barcelona (or Narbonne-Carcassonne-Toulouse).

However, the section between Clermont Ferrand and Beziers would be rather expensive, as it crosses the Massif Central from one end (Clermont Ferrand) to the other (Beziers).

That said, if well built, it would probably allow for really optimal travel times between Paris (and further north - Brussels, Lille, London, etc), and Montpellier, Toulouse and Barcelona on the other, including maybe even the possibility of extending some services to Valencia and Zaragoza (that's just my guess).

While at the same time, releasing even more capacity on the Paris-Lyon-Marseille axis.

The straight line between Paris and Barcelona is via Manresa-Puigcerda-Foix-Toulouse-Cahors-Brive-Limoges-Vierzon-Orleans.
Which is unfeasible as there's no way they're going to build a tunnel under the Pyrenees.
Then between Montauban and Châteauroux it also crosses the western side of the Massif Central (really expensive too).
And then between Vierzon and Orleans it also crosses the Sologne forest.
So that's a non-starter.



Thorum said:


> 6h center to center can compete with airplanes, so that's enough I guess.
> 
> Now if only the prices were comparable...


Me I'd like a Brussels-Barcelona.

If there is (or has been) a Brussels-Perpignan, I see no reason other than technical to not extend it to Barcelona.



NCT said:


> Paris - Montpellier Sud de France is 3:12 according to Google Maps, so I think a theoretical non-stop 3 hours should be possible?


Complicated, there are really many trains between Paris and Lyon.

Particularly the section between Crisenoy and Pasilly is rather congested during the peak hours.

Crisenoy is the junction just south of Paris, where trains bound for the north (Marne-la-Vallée, Lille, Brussels, Amsterdam, London) diverge from the Paris-Lyon HSL.

Pasilly is the junction from where trains from Paris (and further north) running towards Burgundy (Dijon), the Franche-Comté (Dole, Besançon, Belfort) and most of Switzerland (Lausanne, Basel, Zurich, Bern) diverge from the Paris-Lyon HSL.



NCT said:


> I didn't realise Barcelona to Perpignan was this slow, though I notice from the south the line is built to allow a Perpignan bypass?


Yes, there's provision for that by-pass at Le Soler, where the line diverges from the future HSL to reach Perpignan station.
At the other end, the same should happen, so trains from Paris to Perpignan would diverge from the HSL to reach the classic line at Rivesaltes station (the station right before Perpignan if you travel southbound).



Coryza said:


> The distance between Perpignan and Montpellier is about 158 km, without stops at Narbonne and Beziers I'd say this should be doable in ~40 minutes once the high-speed railway has been constructed. Therefore I'd say 5h is realistic.


Barcelona-Paris in 5 hours wouldn't be ideal, but it wouldn't be bad at all, at least if we compare with historical travel times.

It would be better than Barcelona-Seville and Barcelona-Malaga, which are comparable distances, although I believe that Paris is slightly closer to Barcelona than Seville or Malaga are.



hrrAd said:


> BTW long services non-stop are not very usual, at least on Spain. It is difficult to fill up a train like this without the passengers of intermediate stops. There are 6 hours HS services from Barcelona to the other side (the longest, Barcelona-Malaga, almost 1.100 km on HSL) and none is non-stop.


This makes sense, as the population of Spain is lower than that of France.

That said, some years ago I did a Camp de Tarragona-Cordoba non-stop return trip on a seasonal Barcelona-Seville AVE (although I think that nowadays this train also calls at Zaragoza).
Doing Tarragona-Cordoba in 3h 30min is quite something.



NCT said:


> Paris - Barcelona is a much stronger market than Barcelona - Malaga so would be much less reliant on inter-mediate stops.


Yes, but it's also an international route, so that makes it harder to fill a train.

Perhaps there even is also a bit of mental barrier though, as for so long Spain hasn't been a destination that was easy to reach by train from the rest of Europe because of the gauge barrier (and also the distance in many cases).



NCT said:


> I think it'd be possible to fill an hourly train stopping at Lyon Airport and Sud de France only and still be around the 5-hour mark.


Again, the problem is not that, on paper you can do anything, but then reality is another thing.

Like I said, the section between Crisenoy and Pasilly of the Paris-Lyon HSL is really congested, so this affects every train and route on the line, including the stopping patterns.

That said, if they extended all of the Montpellier, Beziers and Perpignan terminators to Barcelona, then perhaps that would be feasible, I don't know, but if yes, they'd need A LOT of trains which were capable of entering Spain anyway, and also extra room at the Barcelona Can Tunis depot (or a new depot).



Coryza said:


> Currently the fastest time between Paris and Montpellier is 3h4m (*currently not operating due to Covid*), with a speed restriction between Montpellier and the Valence-Marseille high-speed line (220 km/h instead of 300 km/h). As soon as that restriction is gone, under 3 hours is easy- even with 1 or 2 additional stops.


I think they should upgrade the classic line between Nîmes and Montpellier (3rd or even 4th tracks where possible), and build a branch between Montpellier St Roch and Montpellier Sud de France, to improve a bit the connectivity at Montpellier, and also leave a bit of room at both the HSL station, the HSL, and the classic line.

Reopening the line between Lunel and Arles would be great for freight as well, but also for passengers, as that would be quite a shortcut between Montpellier and Marseille (by avoiding Nîmes and Tarascon).

They should also extend the tramway line 1 of Montpellier from Odysseum to the Sud de France HSL station, and they're rather late with that.



NCT said:


> Do we know that the 220km/h speed restriction between Montpellier and the Valence-Marseille line is likely to be gone? And what's necessitating this restriction in the first place? Thanks.


The problem between Montpellier and Nîmes is capacity on the classic line.



TER200 said:


> It would also require the removal of the freight trains on this line.
> And currently, freight is the main use of the CNM, to relieve capacity on the old line for regional services. Moving the high-speed trains on the new line significantly worsens the service for Montpellier (as the new station "Sud de France" is badly connected), so about half of them still use the old line and central stations.
> 
> So I'm not sure this upgrade will ever happen (especially if the freight traffic finally increases again... it can not get much lower).


It should happen in the mid to long term.
Southern France and Eastern Spain (and perhaps maybe even Northern Italy) would only be better.



Sunfuns said:


> Not sure about feasibility of Paris-Barcelona traffic, but there would be a fully high speed line all the way from Amsterdam to Sevilla. Perhaps a high speed night train in the right season?


Not really, no.

I'd begin by the beginning: a TGV Barcelona-Brussels.

I'd say Barcelona-London too, but after Brexit that's less interesting.

Barcelona-Amsterdam I'm not sure, but if feasible, I'd go for it.

From a Spanish point of view though, what we really miss are the connections to:

1) Switzerland (Geneva or even Zurich, the Talgo used to call at Geneva, Lausanne, Fribourg, Bern, and Zurich, so nearly half of Switzerland was connected to Spain).
This could be a daytime TGV (say Barcelona-Annemasse-Evian, if the Swiss are allergic to more trains at Cornavin station), or a night train (say the former Talgo route).

2) Italy (Turin, Milan, the Talgo also used to call at Novara if I remember well).
This, without the tunnel under the Alps, would better be a night train.

Right now there aren't any direct trains between Spain and Switzerland, or between Spain and Italy.
Which is nonsense if you ask me.


----------



## hrrAd

NCT said:


> Paris - Barcelona is a much stronger market than Barcelona - Malaga so would be much less reliant on inter-mediate stops.


I was trying to look for any data to compare but is difficult now with covid.

Traffic Barcelona-Andalucia is bigger than Barcelona-Paris, national relations are always strong for business and family trips.

If we compare only city to city, travelers from Barcelona airport on 2019 departed 10% to Paris and 7% to Seville.

There has never been a non-stop HS train from Barcelona to Andalucia.

In any case, who knows what the future will be for new services opened to worldwide competence. This line may be operated by a company which does not exist yet.


----------



## TER200

437.001 said:


> 3) Paris to Lyon is the first HSL in Europe, so it has aged, it allows only for 280km/h. I'm not certain whether there's room for improvement or not. Besides, it is the most congested HSL in Europe, with a continuous flow of TGV's, so that's quite limiting when designing the timetable patterns (and the stopping patterns of trains).


The max speed has been increased to 300 on most of the line. Only a few sections remain limited at 270 for geometric reasons so it's not likely the speed will increase there.

However the improvement of the signalling is on the way. When TVM300 is replaced by ETCS2 in 2025 it should allow a gain in regularity, travel time (about 5 minutes) and capacity : one more path, and ultimately 3 (totalling 16) per hour when the accesses to the stations in Paris and Lyon are also improved.



437.001 said:


> I think the main room for improvement would be if the POCL HSL would be built, as that would allow faster trains between Paris and Lyon, while at the same time releasing a lot of capacity.


It will not be built in foreseeable future, for the reason cited above.
With more capacity on the SE HSL and more capacity in each train ("TGV 2020" -> 20% more capacity), the need for a new line is pushed far away. Also, the number of trains on the line has decreased in the last 10 years.


----------



## 33Hz

hrrAd said:


> Now Paris-Montpellier is 3:30


Paris - Montpellier Sud de France can be done today in 3h12m with 2 intermediate stops at Valence and Nimes. This could be done by a non-stopping train in 3h.



hrrAd said:


> If the time Montpellier-Perpignan were 45 m (half than now on the current line) Paris-Barcelona would be 5:40 h.


The project files show it will save 39 minutes between Montpellier and Perpignan centre. Phase 2 will bypass Perpignan as well, meaning a non-stopping train could cover the whole line in well under an hour.

Put all that together and a fast Paris - Barcelona train could be 5 hours.


----------



## 437.001

33Hz said:


> Put all that together and a fast Paris - Barcelona train could be 5 hours.


Is Paris-Barcelona faster than Paris-Nice right now, or am I mistaken?


----------



## btrs

437.001 said:


> Is Paris-Barcelona faster than Paris-Nice right now, or am I mistaken?


But that is mainly due to the uber-slow Marseille-Nice line. Some developments on the horizon though as it will be the first classic line in France with ETCS Level 2. This will however not solve the travel time if you take the whole journey to Nice. The LNPCA (new line Provence Côte d'Azur) seems to be stuck in development hell, and may only be around in 2035, at earliest..
Plus: it will be a new line but NOT an LGV (max speed rumoured to be 220 km/h, like CNM nowadays), so it can be used by InterCity services as well and doesn't need as rigorous engineering.


----------



## 33Hz

French government commits €4bn to Bordeaux - Toulouse HS project


France’s prime minister says the government will contribute €4.1bn towards the €6bn project to build a 222km high-speed line from Bordeaux to Toulouse.




www.railjournal.com







> FRANCE’s prime minister, Mr Jean Castex, has confirmed in a letter to Ms Carole Delga, president of Occitanie region, and Mr Jean-Luc Moudenc, mayor of Toulouse, on April 27, that the government will contribute €4.1bn towards the €6bn project to build a 222km high-speed line from Bordeaux to Toulouse.
> 
> The prime minister also announced that a contribution from the European Union, covering 20% of the total cost, will be sought. The rest of the funding will come from local authorities along the line.
> 
> The Bordeaux – Toulouse high-speed line will share a 55km section south of Bordeaux with a future high-speed line to Spain. An appeal by local groups against permission to rebuild the northern approaches to Toulouse as part of the project was recently rejected by the State Council.
> 
> Construction of the new line is expected to start in 2024, with opening envisaged in 2030. Completion of the project will cut the Bordeaux – Toulouse journey time from 2h 10min today to around 1 hour, and the Paris – Toulouse journey time from about 4h 20min to around 3 hours.
> 
> Castex also announced that he has decided to accelerate construction of the Montpellier – Béziers section of the future Montpellier – Perpignan high-speed line and that he hopes permission to go-ahead with the entire project could be obtained in 2022.
> 
> These announcements effectively reverse a policy, introduced by President Emmanuel Macron when he came to power in 2017, to put an immediate halt to plans to build more high-speed lines in France. Macron said his priority was to improve “everyday transport” first. However, since then, there has been mounting pressure from the French regions to push ahead with high-speed projects, and to reduce reliance on air transport in the fight against global warming. Indeed, the government has introduced a policy to discourage domestic short-haul flights in favour of high-speed trains.


----------



## 33Hz

Castex agrees to fund Bordeaux – Toulouse high speed line


FRANCE: The French government will contribute €4·1bn to help finance the long-planned high speed line between Bordeaux and Toulouse, Prime Minister Jean Castex announced on April 28. Toulouse is France's fourth largest city and the capital of the Occitanie region. It would be the last major...




www.railwaygazette.com


----------



## 33Hz

Le Train eyes Arcachon – La Rochelle TGVs


FRANCE: Taking advantage of the forthcoming liberalisation of domestic passenger services, open access operator Le Train has applied to transport regulation authority ART for powers to run regional high speed services in the southwest. Envisaged as the first private high speed operator in...




www.railwaygazette.com





However they need to put a stop to this: https://www.neom.pro/vinci/reference-traitement-de-104-rames-tgv-atlantique-a-ambronay-01/


----------



## 437.001

🔼🔼🔼
Arcachon-La Rochelle?
I guess they would reverse at Poitiers.
Anyway, sounds odd. 😶


----------



## Axelferis

New TGV coming 2024


----------



## komatek

It reminds me a bit of the KTX139


----------



## Robi_damian

komatek said:


> It reminds me a bit of the KTX139


Or even the Avelia Liberty


----------



## 437.001

Axelferis said:


> New TGV coming 2024


Looks like the new Acelas.


----------



## [email protected]




----------



## Henk Angenent

437.001 said:


> Barcelona-Amsterdam I'm not sure, but if feasible, I'd go for it.


I have no doubt this route would be profitable, even today. The Amsterdam-Marseille Thalys service that runs in summer on Saturdays had a 94% occupancy in 2019. The problem is that there is not enough tri-current rolling stock available, otherwise the service would have been long expanded.


----------



## 437.001

Henk Angenent said:


> I have no doubt this route would be profitable, even today. The Amsterdam-Marseille Thalys service that runs in summer on Saturdays had a 94% occupancy in 2019. The problem is that there is not enough tri-current rolling stock available, otherwise the service would have been long expanded.


And also that the distance between the Avignon triangle and Barcelona is much longer than the distance between Avignon and Marseille.

This is what leaves me a bit unconvinced by an Amsterdam-Barcelona.
However, a Brussels-Barcelona is perfectly possible with the right rolling stock, and even desirable, as it would add extra passengers to a route (Brussels-Montpellier-Perpignan) that perhaps didn't reach those numbers.

That said, what can be extended on the southern end (Figueres, Girona, Barcelona) can also be extended on the northern (Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam), for extra passengers at both ends.

So I guess it makes sense.
You could cover an Amsterdam-Montpellier and a Barcelona-Brussels with just one train, which sounds kind of right.
The only necessary thing would be a Thalys train that was able to enter Spain.

What I'm not sure about are the intermediate stops in France.
Montpellier-Sud de France, and Perpignan, should be fixtures, but I'm not sure about the other possible stops (Valence-TGV, Nimes-Pont du Gard and Narbonne appear to be necessary too, but there's also the possibility of calling at Lyon-St Exupery, Mâcon-Loché, Le Creusot-Montchanin, and also TGV Haute-Picardie, but I guess that this depends on the French stopping patterns for the HSL...).
And of course there's the two stops at Roissy-Charles de Gaulle and Marne-la-Vallée, which are compulsory.


----------



## Henk Angenent

The current seasonal Thalys service Amsterdam-Marseille does not call at Roissy-Charles de Gaulle or Marne-la-Vallée; after Brussels the first call is Valence.


----------



## 437.001

Henk Angenent said:


> The current seasonal Thalys service Amsterdam-Marseille does not call at Roissy-Charles de Gaulle or Marne-la-Vallée; after Brussels the first call is Valence.


Yes, but I think that on an Amsterdam-Barcelona train there's an interest in calling at those two.
Roissy, for the connections to the airport (and RER B).
And Marne-la-Vallée, for Mickey Mouse (and RER A).
Thus, having the possibility of doing that with just one train, this does not overload the Paris-Lyon HSL with two trains occupying two different paths on the HSL.
Like I said, that'd be extra passengers, as the main interest in such a long service would be to keep the train as full as possible pending as much of the trip as possible.

Like I said, I think Amsterdam-Barcelona is a rather longer trip than Amsterdam-Marseille, so I believe that it makes sense to merge it with the ideal stops of a potential Brussels-Barcelona to keep the train as full as possible.

I'm in no doubt that there would be people travelling from Amsterdam to Barcelona, but when you compare with the travel times by plane to/from Schiphol, the passengers of the end-to-end journey would be just a niche of the lot (people who are afraid of flying, tourists who just want to see the landscape along the way, etc). Because there's the other aspect, the price.
How much is it for a Marseille-Amsterdam, 2nd class?
Because a 2nd class ticket on a Paris-Barcelona is not cheap, so an Amsterdam-Barcelona looks even more dissuasive...


----------



## 437.001

I edited a bit more. 🔼 🔼 🔼


----------



## intersezioni

As we anticipated a few days ago, Trenitalia's Frecciarossa 1000 made its triumphal entry into Paris Gare de Lyon last Saturday after the first pre-operation trip from Turin Porta Nuova.

The star of the day was the Frecciarossa 1000 n.50, the last of the first order, which was driven by staff from Thello.

The photo posted by the CEO of the company Roberto Rinaudo shows him just arrived in the beautiful Parisian station.

A historic day for our railways. The future of high-speed international day services between Italy and France has just begun.


















Ferrovie: Il Frecciarossa 1000 di Trenitalia arriva a Parigi


Primo viaggio convincente per il convoglio di Trenitalia in Francia.




www.ferrovie.info


----------



## K_

Has it ever been considered moving Eurostar and Thalys services to Paris Est? Nord and Est are next to each other, and currently there is even a tunnel under construction for the CDG Express, which looks like it could (as long as this has been considered during the design) be used to get trains from the Nord Main line to Est. Given how crowded Nord is, and how quiet EST this would balance services better, and put a lot of international services in the same terminal.

So has this idea ever been floated?


----------



## AttikoMetro

K_ said:


> Has it ever been considered moving Eurostar and Thalys services to Paris Est? Nord and Est are next to each other, and currently there is even a tunnel under construction for the CDG Express, which looks like it could (as long as this has been considered during the design) be used to get trains from the Nord Main line to Est. Given how crowded Nord is, and how quiet EST this would balance services better, and put a lot of international services in the same terminal.
> 
> So has this idea ever been floated?


No. The LGV nord is connected to Paris Nord's track approaches. There is only one connection from Paris Nord's approaches through the former petite ceinture with Paris Est's approach that is being rebuilt right now for CDG express. Having the trains switch over to Paris Est would generate capacity issues due to track crossing. I suppose this might be possible with new tunnels and viaducts to create grade separated junctions but Paris Saint Lazare badly needs these and SNCF still hasn't gotten money to rebuild Saint Lazare's approaches...


----------



## TER200

AttikoMetro said:


> I suppose this might be possible with new tunnels and viaducts to create grade separated junctions


If there's enough space to build them, which I'm not sure.

Anyway Gare de l'Est does not have so many long platforms to accommodate double trainsets (or a whole Eurostar) and will lose 2 or 3 tracks to CdG Express. This new connection will also only offer conneciton to the western part of the station (tracks 2-11) I guess, this lets only the four tracks n°5 to 8 with platforms long enough for such trains, and they are also necessary for some TGV Est services (the eastern part of the station also has only 4 tracks with long platforms).


----------



## Gusiluz

Hello!

Question:

Have the latest Océane TGVs left the factory with modifications to run in Spain as far as San Sebastián?
They need ASFA Digital, Tren-Tierra communication, and 3 kV DC power supply.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1436993561480863744


----------



## M-NL

Gusiluz said:


> Have the latest Océane TGVs left the factory with modifications to run in Spain as far as San Sebastián?
> They need ASFA Digital, Tren-Tierra communication, and 3 kV DC power supply.


The fact that the E is slightly crooked, does suggest that the train on this photo was approved for running in Spain only after it left the factory. But that does not mean it was not factory fitted with the required equipment.
But wait, does Spain still use another older voice communication system besides GSM-R?


----------



## davide84

Yes, according to Wikipedia they are both used.


----------



## Gusiluz

In Spain there were 3,175 km of GSM-R (2,415 km of ERTMS) at the end of 2020.
The San Sebastian-Irun (border) section has not even been tendered for ERTMS+GSM-R, so it is still years away from being in service.
The line is not ready for mixed gauge either, the company in charge went bankrupt and the works have not yet been awarded.

A novel system to widen the tunnel gauge (double track) while trains pass through (single track) in the Gaintxurizketa tunnel.


----------



## K_

TER200 said:


> Anyway Gare de l'Est does not have so many long platforms to accommodate double trainsets (or a whole Eurostar) and will lose 2 or 3 tracks to CdG Express. This new connection will also only offer conneciton to the western part of the station (tracks 2-11) I guess, this lets only the four tracks n°5 to 8 with platforms long enough for such trains, and they are also necessary for some TGV Est services (the eastern part of the station also has only 4 tracks with long platforms).


But Gare de L'Est does have a lot of platforms. Use 3-4 for CDG Express, 5-6 for Eurostar, 7-8 for Thalys, 26-29 for the TGV Est services. And you still have a heavily under-utilised station....




AttikoMetro said:


> No. The LGV nord is connected to Paris Nord's track approaches. There is only one connection from Paris Nord's approaches through the former petite ceinture with Paris Est's approach that is being rebuilt right now for CDG express.


For the CDG express currently a new tunnel is being built, to connect to the eastern tracks out of GDN. Given that the CDG express will only run every 15 minutes there is enough capacity to run quite a few more trains through there. What would be needed is a flyover to connect that to the line to Lille.
That would solve quite a few problems at the same time. Free up capacity in GDN. Make a nice international hub for Paris etc...[/QUOTE]


----------



## Suburbanist

I wonder if they couldn't build a massive two-level station in La Chapelle by bringing two approaches to the same place. 

They could then leave only regional/suburban traffic at Gare du Nord, and build a deep underground link between Gare Montparnasse and Gare d'Est/du Nord. 

Barring this € 15billion project, at the very least they should build underground people movers to quickly connect passengers between both stations, make them effectively one giant terminal. I am thinking of a fast-moving cable car or train like the ones normally found at airports with remote terminals, not merely fast horizontal travelators.

Same for connecting and unifying Gare de Austerlitz and Gare du Lyon.


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> I wonder if they couldn't build a massive two-level station in La Chapelle by bringing two approaches to the same place.
> 
> They could then leave only regional/suburban traffic at Gare du Nord, and build a deep underground link between Gare Montparnasse and Gare d'Est/du Nord.
> 
> Barring this € 15billion project, at the very least they should build underground people movers to quickly connect passengers between both stations, make them effectively one giant terminal. I am thinking of a fast-moving cable car or train like the ones normally found at airports with remote terminals, not merely fast horizontal travelators.


They're too busy with the Grand Paris Express and the RER E, so there is no way they're going to do that, Suburbanist.



Suburbanist said:


> Same for connecting and unifying Gare de Austerlitz and Gare du Lyon.


That's even more complicated.


----------



## Stuu

Suburbanist said:


> Barring this € 15billion project, at the very least they should build underground people movers to quickly connect passengers between both stations, make them effectively one giant terminal. I am thinking of a fast-moving cable car or train like the ones normally found at airports with remote terminals, not merely fast horizontal travelators.


They have been linked by two different underground people mover since 1908.

I'd be interested to know how many people actually change between the two stations, given the existence of direct trains between Lille and Strasbourg. For Brussels to Strasbourg SNCF journey planner says to change at Marne-le-Vallee, which means switching platforms at most. Eurostar passengers travelling further can change at Lille. Seems like a solution looking for a problem to me


----------



## TER200

Stuu said:


> I'd be interested to know how many people actually change between the two stations, given the existence of direct trains between Lille and Strasbourg.


I did it every week for 3 years. First because the stations serve many more destinations than Lille and Strasbourg (where are the trains from Nancy or Troyes to Amiens or Arras ?), and also because the existing direct Lille-Strasbourg trains are much less frequent and in fact slower than the combination of radial ones. Depending on your timing, you might have to switch stations even if you go from Lille to Strasbourg.



Stuu said:


> They have been linked by two different underground people mover since 1908.


With so many stairs than walking in the streets (not the urinal one, the rue du Faubourg Saint-Denis) sounds less painful than taking the metro.


----------



## 33Hz

Macron puts high speed projects back on track in ‘decade of the TGV’


FRANCE: In a speech at Paris Gare de Lyon during an event held on September 17 to mark 40 years since the launch of TGV services, President Emmanuel Macron announced the revival of plans to expand the high speed network, describing the 2020s as 'the decade of the TGV'.




www.railwaygazette.com





Good news overall that the president is behind network expansion, a significant reversal from his position when first elected.

Bad news that the LGV Picardie is being crippled and just an upgraded spur.


Does anyone have a larger version of this picture, though?













Stuu said:


> I'd be interested to know how many people actually change between the two stations, given the existence of direct trains between Lille and Strasbourg.


I've changed between the two stations many a time. I've done a Strasbourg-Lille once (and a Marseilles-Lille once) and the experience of checking in for Eurostar at Lille is so horrible I'll avoid it at all costs. It wasn't any faster.


----------



## TER200

33Hz said:


> Bad news that the LGV Picardie is being crippled and just an upgraded spur.


It's not a high-speed line at all and was not presented as such.
Is basically a junction to bring regional trains from CDG airport to Picardie, and a handful of TGVs as well to provide direct connections from Amiens to Lyon for example.


----------



## nim=nim

33Hz said:


> Does anyone have a larger version of this picture, though?


You have another version of the same shot here:









40 ans du TGV : la maturité à grande vitesse - transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires


Le 22 septembre 1981, le Président de la République inaugurait la grande vitesse ferroviaire française avec la première section de la LGV...



transportrail.canalblog.com





Not sure it’s much better however.


----------



## 33Hz

TER200 said:


> It's not a high-speed line at all and was not presented as such.
> Is basically a junction to bring regional trains from CDG airport to Picardie, and a handful of TGVs as well to provide direct connections from Amiens to Lyon for example.


Sure, but in the past this was presented as an LGV via Amiens to create a shorter route to Calais. With what's presented now that will be kicked into touch for decades.


----------



## 33Hz

nim=nim said:


> You have another version of the same shot here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 40 ans du TGV : la maturité à grande vitesse - transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires
> 
> 
> Le 22 septembre 1981, le Président de la République inaugurait la grande vitesse ferroviaire française avec la première section de la LGV...
> 
> 
> 
> transportrail.canalblog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure it’s much better however.


Thank you. As you say, not much better (and only 4:3). It would be a shame if, after going to the trouble of bringing them together, nobody took a wallpaper-worthy picture


----------



## TER200

33Hz said:


> Sure, but in the past this was presented as an LGV via Amiens to create a shorter route to Calais. With what's presented now that will be kicked into touch for decades.


That's a completely different project, that was shelved for a long time.


----------



## 33Hz

Et voila: 



https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anniversaire_40_ans_TGV.jpg


----------



## Axelferis

*TGV Océane Paris Montparnasse >>> Bordeaux Saint Jean 
1st class*
(with my smartphone):




































































































































































​


----------



## AlbertJP

How is the seating quality in 1st class on those trains? The 2nd class seats are not very suitable for tall people in my experience, and the 1st class seats look even shorter?


----------



## Axelferis

Frankly using regularly those _Oceane _trains i was a little bit surprised how it feels like to be in...2nd class but with more space in larger.
The comfort is good,better but not miles away from 2nd class.

With 2-1 configuration in 1st class VS 2-2 in 2nd one configuration it's quite obvious to have more space but i repeat not so distant.

The plus is:
-electrical plugs and connections: you have for each person 2X 230V plug+ 1 USB!
-the table is larger due to the seat
-lights: the traditional led integrated on your seat just above you in the corner+ lights for the table.

The general feeling is this car is more compact and modern.
For legs you have (a little) more space than in 2nd class, just enough to have an easy travel.


----------



## parcdesprinces

Axelferis said:


> Frankly using regularly those _Oceane _trains i was a little bit surprised how it feels like to be in...2nd class but with more space in larger.


LOL, welcome in SNCF trains/services in that regard.. and nothing new ..  my dear Lillo-Bordelais Axel.


----------



## 437.001

33Hz said:


> Sure, but in the past this was presented as an LGV via Amiens to create a shorter route to Calais. With what's presented now that will be kicked into touch for decades.


The difference is that right now, the LGV Nord is far from being at capacity.

So it can perfectly withstand all the services: inner French to Lille, Arras, Valenciennes, Dunkerque and etc, cross-border to/from Belgium and beyond (Brussels, Amsterdam, Liège, Cologne, etc), and also cross-border to/from Britain (London to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, etc).

So there really isn't much of a need for the LGV Picardie, other than improvement of the travel time between Paris and Amiens, and even that isn't much of a thing.

Right now, the main need for improvement lies in the south of France:

1) along the axis Nice-Marseille-Montpellier-Narbonne-Toulouse-Bordeaux.
Aside from Lille and Lyon (and obviously Paris), this axis connects most of the largest French cities, right now served mostly by a classic line that is rather strained in places, and which also sees a considerable number of trains to/from Paris/Lyon/Lille.

2) and also Narbonne-Perpignan and Bordeaux-Dax for improved connections into Spain (to Barcelona/Zaragoza/Madrid, and later on, Valencia and Alicante, and also to Hendaye/Irun/San Sebastian/Bilbao and later on, Madrid via Valladolid).

3) plus St Jean de Maurienne to Turin (the tunnel under the Alps) for improved connections between France and Italy (and perhaps also between Spain and Italy).


----------



## 33Hz

437.001 said:


> Right now, the main need for improvement lies in the south of France:


I agree - I would much rather see Bordeaux - Toulouse, Bordeaux - Dax, Montpellier - Perpignan, Marseille - Nice and Lyon - Turin happen first, but also as a regular Eurostar passenger I don't want to see anything that rules out any future <2 hour Paris - London time, even if it is a couple of decades away.


----------



## Aim9X

437.001 said:


> The difference is that right now, the LGV Nord is far from being at capacity.
> 
> So it can perfectly withstand all the services: inner French to Lille, Arras, Valenciennes, Dunkerque and etc, cross-border to/from Belgium and beyond (Brussels, Amsterdam, Liège, Cologne, etc), and also cross-border to/from Britain (London to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, etc).
> 
> So there really isn't much of a need for the LGV Picardie, other than improvement of the travel time between Paris and Amiens, and even that isn't much of a thing.
> 
> Right now, the main need for improvement lies in the south of France:
> 
> 1) along the axis Nice-Marseille-Montpellier-Narbonne-Toulouse-Bordeaux.
> Aside from Lille and Lyon (and obviously Paris), this axis connects most of the largest French cities, right now served mostly by a classic line that is rather strained in places, and which also sees a considerable number of trains to/from Paris/Lyon/Lille.
> 
> 2) and also Narbonne-Perpignan and Bordeaux-Dax for improved connections into Spain (to Barcelona/Zaragoza/Madrid, and later on, Valencia and Alicante, and also to Hendaye/Irun/San Sebastian/Bilbao and later on, Madrid via Valladolid).
> 
> 3) plus St Jean de Maurienne to Turin (the tunnel under the Alps) for improved connections between France and Italy (and perhaps also between Spain and Italy).


+ The "Interconnection Sud" high-speed line south of Paris, connecting the west side of the HSL network to the east side.


----------



## Ghostpoet

According to the internet sources, the Marseille - Nice LGV project is downgraded to the number of existing infrastructure improvement projects, such as cross-city Marseille tunnel and improvements in the Nice area... :/ Any further info about this?
What is the current status of the Bordeaux – Toulouse LGV?

Thank you!

Ghostpoet


----------



## 437.001

33Hz said:


> I agree - I would much rather see Bordeaux - Toulouse, Bordeaux - Dax, Montpellier - Perpignan, Marseille - Nice and Lyon - Turin happen first, but also as a regular Eurostar passenger I don't want to see anything that rules out any future <2 hour Paris - London time, even if it is a couple of decades away.


...

...but how much time would a HSL Paris-Amiens-Calais save, as opposed to the current line via Lille?

I think a French rail fan would probably say that improvement on the Paris-Normandy lines (Paris-Mantes, Mantes-Caen-Cherbourg, Mantes-Rouen-Le Havre) are much more needed than Paris-Amiens-Calais, even if some of those improvements are already happening to make room for the RER E extension.

I'd really only see a case for Paris-Amiens-Calais if the capacity between Calais and Lille and between Paris and Lille would become strained, and I think that's rather far from being the case.

And the way things are going, an interconnection in Camden between HS1 and HS2 looks rather unlikely, although it could improve connections between all of Britain north (and west?) of London and Paris (and the rest of France in general, plus Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc).



Aim9X said:


> + The "Interconnection Sud" high-speed line south of Paris, connecting the west side of the HSL network to the east side.


Yes, that would help release some extra capacity between Choisy and Massy-Palaiseau on the RER C.
However, personally I don't really see it as anything extremely needed, other than, like I said, to release capacity for the RER C, and also to offer a connection with the LGV POCL (whenever it gets built, and that's still a big if), which presumably would happen somewhere near Pont-de-Rungis, more or less.
Not more needed than a full HSL between Marseille (and ideally Nice) and Bordeaux, which is an axis that links more population (if we don't count the Massy stop, that is, which anyway, even if well used, it doesn't see the number of passengers of Montparnasse and the other inner Paris termini).

I will understand any replies against this, though.

In fact I was about to mention POCL in my last post, because the fact is that central France is not as well served as most other parts of the country. However, that's more true south of Clermont-Ferrand and Brive-la-Gaillarde than north of it.


----------



## Axelferis

*Refurbished Thalys new livery:*


----------



## intersezioni

The Trenitalia CEO confirmed yesterday the departure by the end of 2021 of the FRECCIAROSSA 1000 service in France


----------



## 437.001

intersezioni said:


> The Trenitalia CEO confirmed yesterday the departure by the end of 2021 of the FRECCIAROSSA 1000 service in France


By "departure", do you actually mean they will discontinue services, or that they will begin them?  😶


----------



## PippO.SkaiO

437.001 said:


> By "departure", do you actually mean they will discontinue services, or that they will begin them?  😶


They'll begin by the end of the year
Probably a mistranslation of the original statement of the CEO "... il servizio partirà entro fine anno ..." ("... service will start by the end of the year ...")


----------



## intersezioni

in short, by the end of this year the FRECCIAROSSA 1000 service will be active in france with paying passengers on board


----------



## TER200

How could they discontinue something that doesn't exist, anyway ?

It is strange that, afaik, tickets are still not sold for a service that should start in a few weeks...


----------



## intersezioni

New livery for the French service


----------



## The Wild Boy

When is it expected for Spain's high speed line to link with France's? I know there were some proposals and lines under construction?


----------



## AttikoMetro

The Wild Boy said:


> When is it expected for Spain's high speed line to link with France's? I know there were some proposals and lines under construction?


Are you talking about Perpignan-Figueiras? If so the French and Spanish high speed networks are already linked, although we will probably have to wait after 2030 until the LGV from Montpellier reaches Perpignan.


----------



## The Wild Boy

AttikoMetro said:


> Are you talking about Perpignan-Figueiras? If so the French and Spanish high speed networks are already linked, although we will probably have to wait after 2030 until the LGV from Montpellier reaches Perpignan.


Any map regarding these, the existing high speed network and the planned? 

Like the case now with Italian trains, could Spain too use their trains on France's high speed network, and vice versa?


----------



## AttikoMetro

The Wild Boy said:


> Any map regarding these, the existing high speed network and the planned?
> 
> Like the case now with Italian trains, could Spain too use their trains on France's high speed network, and vice versa?


Here you can find a map of existing high speed lines that's pretty comprehensive: https://www.rd-rail.fr/4-CARTO/RFN_2019 (05) V+160 2019-02-13.pdf

The only limitation for spanish trains is whether they can use TVM 300/430 on the older sections of the network like Paris-Lyon for in cab signaling. Some but not all AVE trains are equipped with it, mostly S-100 trains that travel between Barcelona and Paris.


----------



## 437.001

AttikoMetro said:


> Here you can find a map of existing high speed lines that's pretty comprehensive: https://www.rd-rail.fr/4-CARTO/RFN_2019 (05) V+160 2019-02-13.pdf
> 
> The only limitation for spanish trains is whether they can use TVM 300/430 on the older sections of the network like Paris-Lyon for in cab signaling. Some but not all AVE trains are equipped with it, mostly S-100 trains that travel between Barcelona and Paris*Lyon/Marseille*.


Fixed. 

AVE class 100 are not authorized to go beyond Lyon towards Paris (or Mulhouse).

At least, not yet.


----------



## intersezioni

Trenitalia would launch its Frecciarossa high-speed trains on the Milan-Turin-Lyon-Paris line from 18 December, in direct competition with SNCF's TGVs according to AFP.

The company will thus become the first foreign operator to challenge SNCF on the coveted high-speed market in France since the opening of this sector to free access competition in December 2020. All this obviously anticipates the subsequent landing in Spain scheduled for a few months. later, always obviously in the AV segment.


----------



## clickgr

intersezioni said:


> Trenitalia would launch its Frecciarossa high-speed trains on the Milan-Turin-Lyon-Paris line from 18 December, in direct competition with SNCF's TGVs according to AFP.
> 
> The company will thus become the first foreign operator to challenge SNCF on the coveted high-speed market in France since the opening of this sector to free access competition in December 2020. All this obviously anticipates the subsequent landing in Spain scheduled for a few months. later, always obviously in the AV segment.


Until the Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel will be finished, how those trains will be routed between Turin and Lyon?


----------



## TER200

Modane, Chambéry, Saint-André-le-Gaz, Lyon Part-Dieu


----------



## intersezioni

It will be the curiosity for the first trip or perhaps more likely that the initiative is liked, the fact is that the Frecciarossa debut between Milan and Paris has practically sold out.
The first train in the morning from Milan, the Frecciarossa 9292 currently sees the possibility of booking only seats in the Standard segment, both Silenzio and Allegro, while Business and Executive can no longer be purchased.
If possible "worse" situation for the first convoy departing from Paris, the Frecciarossa 9281 which currently sees the possibility of buying only seats in Standard Allegro with all the other solutions sold out including the Standard Silenzio.
All this refers to the first day of execution, that is, next December 18, when the Trenitalia flagship convoy will make its first trip over the Alps in commercial service.
We will see in the next few days if the trend will remain the same or if it will only be a sold out due to the curiosity for the new connection but the impression is that the service has really received a great interest from travelers.








Ferrovie: L'esordio del Frecciarossa di Trenitalia a Parigi fa il tutto esaurito


Pochi i biglietti disponibili per i primi viaggi del mattino.




www.ferrovie.info


----------



## Axelferis

The debuts will be very good especially with strikes organized by SNCF for holidays season.

The standard price for frecciarossa is not so low compare to the one from SNCF.
It is more interesting when you get the business ticket.

It's good because it will force SNCF to improve its service.

I hope another private company to make a bid to add new offer then customers will be the winners.


----------



## intersezioni

Trasport: Trenitalia concurrence la SNCF sur la ligne reliant Paris à Lyon









Transport : Trenitalia concurrence la SNCF sur la ligne reliant Paris à Lyon


Dès samedi 18 décembre, l'opérateur italien proposera son service de voyage à des tarifs bien moins élevés que ceux du TGV français.




www.francetvinfo.fr


----------



## parcdesprinces

^^ = "in your face" SNCF! (If I may say so ) ... especially in terms of business etc classes.

🇮🇹🇮🇹🇮🇹


----------



## Axelferis

I guess that in few months we'll have SNCF TGV with improved business class & comodities...same old story


----------



## M-NL

How would they do that without sacrificing capacity? TGVs already have a disproportionate amount of first class anyway (3 first class coaches, compared to 4 second class coaches).
On that note reserving a complete double deck coach for the bar/restaurant is probably a bit excessive as well.


----------



## TER200

M-NL said:


> How would they do that without sacrificing capacity? TGVs already have a disproportionate amount of first class anyway (3 first class coaches, compared to 4 second class coaches).


They started reducing this proportion anyway in the latest "Océane" trains, which are now also in charge of the Paris-Lyon services, event though they touch no ocean (the 10% more capacity they have is partially due to that, and mostly to more dense second class, more similar to the seat spacing we have in the single-deck TGVs).
So a lower amount of improved first class, with more second class on the other side, would make it. Especially if it's just a single car (or half-car) of superior first class.



M-NL said:


> On that note reserving a complete double deck coach for the bar/restaurant is probably a bit excessive as well.


Only one deck (but with higher ceiling so you can stand everywhere) is reserved for the bar though. The lower deck is the space for technical cabinets (which are usually spread along a single-deck train under the floor). This "lost" space will apparently be greatly reduced in the future TGV-M.


----------



## M-NL

TER200 said:


> Only one deck (but with higher ceiling so you can stand everywhere) is reserved for the bar though.


That's what you get when your loading gauge (GB I think it was?) only allows for 4,35m high trains. In countries like Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands those trains can be up to 4,65m tall, which allows for two 'full height' decks. Russian wide gauge even allows 5,3m, which may even be enough to create two full continuous decks.


----------



## intersezioni

The Frecciarossa between Milan and Paris continues to be successful as tickets are literally selling like hot cakes.

And the hand of the strike by the French railways SNCF has nothing to do with it, since it has been canceled.

For the debut day, December 18, three out of four connections no longer see the possibility of purchasing tickets with full seats in all classes and the fourth that is about to do the same "end".

But that's not all, because the tickets available are running out even for the next day and for those after that, with different rates that have already been reported as unavailable or close to not being available for hours.

A debut with a bang, therefore, for Trenitalia's Freccarossa in France, which at least on paper starts its adventure in the right way. Now the behavior of the trains on the tracks remains to be seen, but the start with this strong approval is already much more than exciting.









Ferrovie: Frecciarossa 1000 in Francia, continua la vendita record di biglietti


Numerosi collegamenti esauriti anche nei giorni successivi all'inaugurazione.




www.ferrovie.info


----------



## IThomas

Milan-Paris with Frecciarossa 1000.


----------



## intersezioni




----------



## Hourdel




----------



## TokyoImperialPalace

How does the TGV network deal with train delays that can occur on the classic lines, especially in order to prevent them from delaying LGV-only TGV trains?


----------



## SSCreader

TokyoImperialPalace said:


> How does the TGV network deal with train delays that can occur on the classic lines, especially in order to prevent them from delaying LGV-only TGV trains?


LGV-only trains are very rare. Stations in Paris and most other big cities are shared by TGV and other trains. So there are no TGV routes that are completely isolated, and some of them share very long sections with classic trains (Paris-Nice, Paris-Toulouse or Paris-Brest for example). To accomodate for this, there is a 5% time margin in the schedule for TGVs.


----------



## dyonisien

TokyoImperialPalace said:


> How does the TGV network deal with train delays that can occur on the classic lines, especially in order to prevent them from delaying LGV-only TGV trains?





TokyoImperialPalace said:


> How does the TGV network deal with train delays that can occur on the classic lines, especially in order to prevent them from delaying LGV-only TGV trains?


As said by SSCreader schedules include a recovery margin. 
Add to this that even the busiest LGVs allow for at least an 'empty' path almost every hour.
By the way LGV-only trains would be trains circulating just between two 'new' stations, I am unable to cite a single one.


----------



## TER200

The recovery margins are actually lower on HSLs (5% of the time, this is not much per distance) than on the rest of the network (usually 4,5 minutes per 100 km).



dyonisien said:


> Add to this that even the busiest LGVs allow for at least an 'empty' path almost every hour.


Out of the theoretical 15 paths per hour* (4-minute spacing), usually at most 12 are used (exceptionally 13, but only for one hour except during annual peak times).
*However the occasional stops at the intermediate stations would prevent to run train at this interval systematically.


The high-speed lines are more resilient to a delay on one train than major classic lines with mixed traffic : since all trains have the same speed (or almost, and HS stations have passing tracks), being in the wrong order does not cause knock-on delays ; while in mixed traffic, when the fast train comes late it may be stuck after a slower one.


----------



## K_

dyonisien said:


> By the way LGV-only trains would be trains circulating just between two 'new' stations, I am unable to cite a single one.


Isn't there a Lille Europe to Montpellier Sud de France service?


----------



## TER200

Maybe, I also thought about it, but it probably goes through Lyon Part-Dieu.
Ehm, maybe if it's a Ouigo it goes vie the high-speed Lyon bypass.


----------



## Urbanist44

https://www.sudouest.fr/charente-ma...s-premiers-essais-du-tgv-du-futur-7878085.php
According to this article, the new TGV (TGV M) will start its first tests on rails next month.


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> How would they do that without sacrificing capacity? TGVs already have a disproportionate amount of first class anyway (3 first class coaches, compared to 4 second class coaches).


There is a lot of business travel though, and these always go first class. In France it is pretty the custom that if your company sends you somewhere by train you go first class...


----------



## K_

TER200 said:


> Maybe, I also thought about it, but it probably goes through Lyon Part-Dieu.
> Ehm, maybe if it's a Ouigo it goes vie the high-speed Lyon bypass.


Looks like you are right, so no, it is not a pure HSL service...


----------



## TER200

K_ said:


> There is a lot of business travel though, and these always go first class.


Not always, since companies started to cut travel budgets (and environmental impact).
In my company, a few years ago whe were allowed to take first class for trips above 300 km only, now I think we ("basic", non-executive emplyees) have to go on second class for all trips within France, but I'm not sure (I almost never have business trips).


----------



## fabricofparis

TER200 said:


> Not always, since companies started to cut travel budgets (and environmental impact).
> In my company, a few years ago whe were allowed to take first class for trips above 300 km only, now I think we ("basic", non-executive emplyees) have to go on second class for all trips within France, but I'm not sure (I almost never have business trips).


The "convention collective" (collective bargaining agreement) for my sector mandates first class rail travel within France. I assume it's the same for some other sectors too. When I worked for smaller companies I travelled second class, but technically I could have insisted on first class. Now I'm in a bigger company I always travel first. Company policy internationally is for everyone except execs to travel second, but they don't have a choice here because of the convention collective.


----------



## 33Hz

Funding agreement advances high speed link to Perpignan


FRANCE: A memorandum of understanding covering the financing of construction of the first phase of the LGV Montpellier-Perpignan mixed-traffic high speed line was signed in Narbonne on January 22 in the presence of Prime Minister Jean Castex,




www.railwaygazette.com


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## [email protected]




----------



## Coccodrillo

Using an HST train on a not high speed line where the service is not that bad (compared to the Fréjus line), rather than on the Fréjus line, is absurd.

Even more absurd is that they plan to build a base tunnel on a line which currently has a very low traffic. Sure, with the base tunnel traffic will likely increase, but by how much?


----------



## btrs

TER200 said:


> Yes. But it does not make sense to install TVM430 on this line.
> Installing ETCS was "mandatory" anyway, and it makes the capacity increase possible without changing the blocks length, and thus it needs less work than what would be needed to offer the same capacity with TVM430 (which requires shorter blocks - 1500 m instead of 2100 - in order to offer 3 min headways). So using TVM430 would be more expensive.


TVM430 hasn't an obligation for fixed length blocks: the Eurotunnel-version uses blocks of 150 meters if I'm correct. The block length is encoded in a 6-bit value:
Wayback Machine (page 14, 15 and 16 give a comprehensive explanation, although only in French).
Of course, it's possible the TVM430 equipment other than the Eurostars (TMST, Velaro) & ET shuttles has been programmed to ignore that value, and only take the other 21 bits into account ?

But I also remember a study where they examined upgrading TVM300 to TVM430 on LGV-SE, but it was discarded due to many factors:

Back then a sizeable chunk of the TGV-PSE fleet still had TVM300 only (the Lyria sets, as well as the so-called BFC-sets that mostly left the line at the Pasilly chord to serve destinations via Dijon).
The whole signalling centre at Paris-Bercy (PAR) had to be upgraded, as well as all lineside remote-controlled signal boxes (PRS). TVM300 was an analogue-based system, while TVM430 was completely digital.
With the ETCS replacement this has to be done as well, but since the equipment is life-expired at this time makes it a pill that's a lot less harder to swallow..

* As said before, with TVM430 all blocks had to be resized to 1500 m if they wanted to standardize like on other LGV's.


----------



## TER200

btrs said:


> TVM430 hasn't an obligation for fixed length blocks


I didn't say that. But 3-minute headways couldn't be achieved in TVM430 by keeping the current block length, while in ETCS it is possible. So track circuits would have needed to be changed all along the line.



btrs said:


> Back then a sizeable chunk of the TGV-PSE fleet still had TVM300 only (the Lyria sets, as well as the so-called BFC-sets that mostly left the line at the Pasilly chord to serve destinations via Dijon).


Yep... I find strange they considered this a serious issue, while those trains are written off for a decade now.


----------



## Stuu

Coccodrillo said:


> Using an HST train on a not high speed line where the service is not that bad (compared to the Fréjus line), rather than on the Fréjus line, is absurd.
> 
> Even more absurd is that they plan to build a base tunnel on a line which currently has a very low traffic. Sure, with the base tunnel traffic will likely increase, but by how much?


It does seem a bit pointless when there is no high speed infrastructure... which base tunnel do you mean? This route will use the Terzo Valico in the future, but that's not a route with very low traffic


----------



## pccvspw999

Stuu said:


> It does seem a bit pointless when there is no high speed infrastructure... which base tunnel do you mean? This route will use the Terzo Valico in the future, but that's not a route with very low traffic


The point is: use an HST where it performs at best, elsewhere use standard rolling stock. With 200km/h rolling stock between Milan and Nice You’re well served, use Your HST instead on the Frejus line where the service is sparse and the Turin-Milan HSL can be used.


----------



## wbrm

Those TGV’s can’t be used on the Turin-Milan HSL


----------



## pccvspw999

wbrm said:


> Those TGV’s can’t be used on the Turin-Milan HSL


No, but it's also part of the problem and the critics.


----------



## Dorfmeister

btrs said:


> TVM430 hasn't an obligation for fixed length blocks: the Eurotunnel-version uses blocks of 150 meters if I'm correct.


500 meters blocks in GetLink... But the stop sequence is different than on regular TVM: basically you have 1,5 Km to come to a full stop (from 160 Km/h).


----------



## TER200

pccvspw999 said:


> With 200km/h rolling stock between Milan and Nice You’re well served


This does not exist, and it wouldn't make sense to build some for just a handful of trains.
So SNCF decided to just try to make use of the idled TGVs that sit in Milan between some Milan-Paris runs, as a commercial trial with limited expense.

We'll see of commercial success drives a railway company to offer a meaningful service with appropriated rolling stock on this line... But with the demise of Thello and the ridiculous services along the Barcelona-Montpellier corridor, I'm not optimistic.


----------



## pccvspw999

TER200 said:


> This does not exist, and it wouldn't make sense to build some for just a handful of trains.


Does SNCF have any rolling stock for international service beside of TGV’s? Because this is part of the same adressed crtic: SNCF is still “wasting” valuable HSTs for a service that can be made with standard coaches (like Thello did).


----------



## Coccodrillo

Stuu said:


> It does seem a bit pointless when there is no high speed infrastructure... which base tunnel do you mean? This route will use the Terzo Valico in the future, but that's not a route with very low traffic


I'm speaking about the Fréjus base tunnel, which France and Italy are (slowly) building despite the very low traffic compared to the Gotthard and Brenner lines, where base tunnels are already in operation or under construction.

Fréjus: 3 million tonnes of freight per year, 5 long distance passenger trains per day per direction and no regional trains (sometimes a couple of Trenitalia buses, though)
Gotthard: 16 million tonnes of freight per year, 28 long distance passenger trains per day per direction + 15 regional trains + extra trains on peak days
Brenner: 13 million tonnes of freight per year, 8 long distance passenger trains per day per direction + at least one regional train per hour

Before the opening of the base tunnel, traffic on the Gotthard line was lower but not that much, around 14 million tonnes and 20 passenger trains.

So, I wonder how much traffic there will be on the Fréjus line once the base tunnel will be opened, if the existing traffic is so low. The other two lines are already carrying 5 times more traffic. On peak days, the Gotthard line uses 400 m long trains, half of them double deck, the Fréjus line uses 200 m long single deck trains.



TER200 said:


> So SNCF decided to just try to make use of the idled TGVs that sit in Milan between some Milan-Paris runs, as a commercial trial with limited expense.


There are just 6 TGV sets able to run in Italy, and 3 round trips per day on the Paris-Milan line. Are 6 sets enough to make a daily trip also to Nice?


----------



## Stuu

Coccodrillo said:


> I'm speaking about the Fréjus base tunnel, which France and Italy are (slowly) building despite the very low traffic compared to the Gotthard and Brenner lines, where base tunnels are already in operation or under construction.


Oh right, that's not going to help a Milan-Nice train which is what I was wondering about


----------



## intersezioni

On the foreign front, moreover, the Frecciarossa Milan-Paris is particularly successful with over 400 thousand passengers transported since 18 December 2021.


----------



## bifhihher

Coccodrillo said:


> I'm speaking about the Fréjus base tunnel, which France and Italy are (slowly) building despite the very low traffic compared to the Gotthard and Brenner lines, where base tunnels are already in operation or under construction.
> 
> Fréjus: 3 million tonnes of freight per year, 5 long distance passenger trains per day per direction and no regional trains (sometimes a couple of Trenitalia buses, though)
> Gotthard: 16 million tonnes of freight per year, 28 long distance passenger trains per day per direction + 15 regional trains + extra trains on peak days
> Brenner: 13 million tonnes of freight per year, 8 long distance passenger trains per day per direction + at least one regional train per hour
> 
> Before the opening of the base tunnel, traffic on the Gotthard line was lower but not that much, around 14 million tonnes and 20 passenger trains.
> 
> So, I wonder how much traffic there will be on the Fréjus line once the base tunnel will be opened, if the existing traffic is so low. The other two lines are already carrying 5 times more traffic. On peak days, the Gotthard line uses 400 m long trains, half of them double deck, the Fréjus line uses 200 m long single deck trains.
> 
> 
> 
> There are just 6 TGV sets able to run in Italy, and 3 round trips per day on the Paris-Milan line. Are 6 sets enough to make a daily trip also to Nice?


Let's just say a second tunnel from the Ruhr to Italy is maybe also in the interest of the Germans, the Italians and ... the Swiss?


----------



## geogregor

A few questions.

Is there any high speed line currently under construction in France?

If not is anything about to start in the near future?

What is the status of proposed high speed line to Toulouse?


----------



## Stuu

The Lyon-Turin tunnel is under construction (kind of anyway)

Bordeaux-Toulouse is financed and is going through planning and design, due to start in 2024

After that the first section south/west of Montpellier is planned, but construction is not expected to start until 2029


----------



## PippO.SkaiO

Coccodrillo said:


> I'm speaking about the Fréjus base tunnel, which France and Italy are (slowly) building despite the very low traffic compared to the Gotthard and Brenner lines, where base tunnels are already in operation or under construction.
> 
> Fréjus: 3 million tonnes of freight per year, 5 long distance passenger trains per day per direction and no regional trains (sometimes a couple of Trenitalia buses, though)
> Gotthard: 16 million tonnes of freight per year, 28 long distance passenger trains per day per direction + 15 regional trains + extra trains on peak days
> Brenner: 13 million tonnes of freight per year, 8 long distance passenger trains per day per direction + at least one regional train per hour
> 
> Before the opening of the base tunnel, traffic on the Gotthard line was lower but not that much, around 14 million tonnes and 20 passenger trains.
> 
> So, I wonder how much traffic there will be on the Fréjus line once the base tunnel will be opened, if the existing traffic is so low. The other two lines are already carrying 5 times more traffic. On peak days, the Gotthard line uses 400 m long trains, half of them double deck, the Fréjus line uses 200 m long single deck trains.


Maybe Frejus base tunnel can leech some traffic from Ventimiglia and Mont Blanc?
Road + Rail traffic:

Frejus: 14 million tonnes
Gotthard: 23 million tonnes
Brenner: 53 million tonnes










bifhihher said:


> Let's just say a second tunnel from the Ruhr to Italy is maybe also in the interest of the Germans, the Italians and ... the Swiss?


Watch out Italy to Germany main route is the Brenner pass which has a very high road traffic (two weeks ago there was a 100km northbound heavy vehicle jam).
Considering both road and rail traffic the Brenner pass alone carries 50% more goods of all the four Swiss N-S passes (St. Bernard, Simplon, Gotthard and St. Bernardino).

Edit: typo 83 million tonnes


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## davide84

First rule of the FBT: don't mention the FBT. Particularly when Coccodrillo is around


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## TER200

pccvspw999 said:


> Does SNCF have any rolling stock for international service beside of TGV’s?


No, except a few regional trains for Switzerland, Germany (Diesel, bi-mode soon) and Belgium (in Diesel mode only).
I think the option for Italy compatibility was planned in the design for the Regio2N but I'm not sure.


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## TER200

bifhihher said:


> Let's just say a second tunnel from the Ruhr to Italy is maybe also in the interest of the Germans, the Italians and ... the Swiss?


There are already two in Switerland, Lötschberg-Simplon and Gotthard. But both require to pass in Basel.

Circumenventing all Switerland mean running for a few hundred km on the french network, which is horrible for freight transit with many line closures for works, bad paths etc...


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## NCT

The Fréjus base tunnel is the base tunnel for Lyon - Turin under construction right?

On the face of it, one would hope this would trigger explosive growth for Milan - Lyon and Milan - Paris passenger markets - 2 hours and 4 hours are not to be sniffed at.

As for freight, I do notice north-south volumes along the 'blue banana' are just so much higher than everywhere else. How much of that is European internal, and how much is deep-sea import/export via Antwerp/Rotterdam/Hamburg?

On the other hand east west freight volumes between Italy, southern France and Spain look pitifully low between what are pretty large countries. Is it a lack of viable routes, or an underlying lack of demand?


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## bifhihher

TER200 said:


> There are already two in Switerland, Lötschberg-Simplon and Gotthard. But both require to pass in Basel.
> 
> Circumenventing all Switerland mean running for a few hundred km on the french network, which is horrible for freight transit with many line closures for works, bad paths etc...


Should be a priority for the French to get some money for the railways while at the same time improving their tracks.


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## TER200

bifhihher said:


> Should be a priority for the French to get some money for the railways while at the same time improving their tracks.


Sorry, everything is used to try to lower the price of fuel currently...


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## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Oh right, that's not going to help a Milan-Nice train which is what I was wondering about


For Milan-Nice, a good idea would be to electrify Limone Piemonte-Breil sur Roya-Nice.
You'd serve Milan, Turin, Nice in one go. Maybe also Novara and Cuneo.


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## PippO.SkaiO

The Cuneo-Limone-Breil/Ventimiglia is what it is: good for tourists, bad for commuters and goods

Loading gauge: C3 = 20 t/axle (Max 55 km/h when > 18 t/axle)
Min curve radius: 300 m
Max speed 80 km/h
Max grade 26 ‰
Four spiral tunnels
The main railway crossings of Ligurian Alps/Appennines are in Savona or Genoa
See RFI March 2022 assesment of the line after 2020 storm Alex (italian)


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## Stuu

NCT said:


> On the other hand east west freight volumes between Italy, southern France and Spain look pitifully low between what are pretty large countries. Is it a lack of viable routes, or an underlying lack of demand?


There is a fair amount of sea traffic along the Med, which must account for a chunk of demand, there's even vehicle ferries between Spain and Italy although that's fairly niche. Then you have limited capacity, there's only the route via Monaco or the Fréjus tunnel. Coming from Spain the break of gauge is still an important factor, and Spain has very low freight volumes anyway


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## NCT

Ah of course, Med traffic can go by sea ...


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## PippO.SkaiO

Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and France accounted for more than 55 % of EU short sea shipping in 2020.


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## 437.001

Stuu said:


> There is a fair amount of sea traffic along the Med, which must account for a chunk of demand, there's even vehicle ferries between Spain and Italy although that's fairly niche.


Even for a passenger route such as Barcelona-Genoa there is a regular ferry line.
Same for Barcelona-Civitavecchia, and also other routes Spain-Italy.
Italy being a long country, trips such as Barcelona-Naples, Barcelona-Palermo or similar are best done by sea, as by car, lorry or train it can be long and inconvenient.



Stuu said:


> Then you have limited capacity, there's only the route via Monaco or the Fréjus tunnel.


By road there also is the Montgenèvre pass.
It really is a pity that the Montgenèvre rail tunnel was never built, as that's the fastest way from Spain to Italy.



Stuu said:


> Coming from Spain the break of gauge is still an important factor, and Spain has very low freight volumes anyway


Indeed.
But then you look at the amount of trains that get into lorries at Le Boulou, and... if we could get rid of the break of gauge, that would be great.


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## Puinkabouter

NCT said:


> There does appear to be a 'border effect' between France and Belgium that there doesn't appear to be inter-city connections between Lille and Bruges/Ghent.


There used to be, but NMBS/SNCB has made this connection much less attractive in recent years, probably in order to lure more passengers to their more lucrative Thalys trains via Brussels. Ghent-Paris via Lille takes about 30 minutes longer than via Brussels, but it's consistently cheaper (between 30% and 70% cheaper, depending on travel dates and times).


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## Kielbus

[En images] Le TGV M entame une phase d'essais de plusieurs mois en République tchèque


Alstom a annoncé jeudi 8 décembre l’arrivée de son TGV nouvelle génération en République tchèque. À Velim, le principal centre...-Ferroviaire




www.usinenouvelle.com


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## Kielbus




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## robbo2k

What are these wagons in this TGV M because they are completely different than in TGV Duplex?


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## Stuu

robbo2k said:


> What are these wagons in this TGV M because they are completely different than in TGV Duplex?


The whole train is a new design, although the power car design was already used on the Liberty trains for the US


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## Axelferis

Gare Saint Jean Bordeaux (by me)


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