# Official Safe Standing Areas Thread



## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

@ToryFootball
Big announcement on safe standing coming tomorrow. Watch this space. #SafeStanding

https://twitter.com/ToryFootball/status/683726701814218752

Interesting, lets see what the news is. Can't imagine it's anything negative. Well, I wouldn't put it past the government, or PL to be honest haha.


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## Hemi 426 (Sep 1, 2015)

Leedsrule said:


> Not sure how it can be designed specifically for that. Any stand can be converted into a terrace fairly easily, and back again. Just requires the seats to be removed and an extra step to be built between the rows.


I think it's more to do with the amount of turnstiles / exits / refreshments / toilets being already there to handle the potential increased capacity should there be a conversion to a standing area. Of course that wouldn't apply if it's simply the rail seating system where fans stand in front of their seat meaning no increase in capacity of the stand. And Yes, some seated stands were previously terraces before so they could easily be changed back.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Jon Darch
‏@SafeStandingRS
Welsh Tories call for devolution of stadium safety powers to Cardiff to enable safe standing trials https://youtu.be/cwcxf0ebTOs #safestanding

https://twitter.com/SafeStandingRS

Not really the exciting news I was hoping for. Oh well. Surely the powers that be with regards to Health And Safety in Cardiff/Wales will just say no?


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football...ty-powers-are-devolved_sto5046807/story.shtml

http://www.welshconservatives.com/n...adium-regulation-enable-‘safe-standing’-pilot

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/welsh-tories-call-westminster-give-10679886

Some press from todays news.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

From another forum:

*



It is also unlikely that Tory leader Andrew Davies would issue this statement if, after talks with Govt Minister Tracey Crouch, he wasn't very confident they would be granted.

If this goes through England will be isolated in the UK as the only Government to still oppose safe standing. Coupled with the verdicts from the Hillsborough inquest, likely in the Spring (which should dispel all the persistent standing myths and ignorance over terraces) this is brewing into the perfect storm for the campaign

Click to expand...

*Makes sense that he had probably already got word that things might be able to change so he wouldn't have his tail between his legs.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

The Daily Mails take:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...es-possible-Wales-safety-powers-devolved.html


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

Hemi 426 said:


> I think it's more to do with the amount of *turnstiles / exits / refreshments / toilets* being already there to handle the potential increased capacity should there be a conversion to a standing area. Of course that wouldn't apply if it's simply the rail seating system where fans stand in front of their seat meaning no increase in capacity of the stand. And Yes, some seated stands were previously terraces before so they could easily be changed back.


If there was any increase in capacity to stadiums via the addition of safe standing, those would certainly be a factor. Some clubs would also find it difficult to increase the capacity due to capacity limits being set by local authorities.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

RMB2007 said:


> If there was any increase in capacity to stadiums via the addition of safe standing, those would certainly be a factor. Some clubs would also find it difficult to increase the capacity due to capacity limits being set by local authorities.


There are Capacity limits? In the Premier League? Stadiums just keep getting bigger and bigger and I have not heard to limits to capacity. Interesting.


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

KeepRightOn said:


> There are Capacity limits? In the Premier League? Stadiums just keep getting bigger and bigger and I have not heard to limits to capacity. Interesting.


Local councils can set restrictions, be it the amount of events a stadium can host or the capacity. Capacity restrictions are usually based on how much the local transport infrastructure can cope.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

RMB2007 said:


> Local councils can set restrictions, be it the amount of events a stadium can host or the capacity. Capacity restrictions are usually based on how much the local transport infrastructure can cope.


Which is why another German Soccer Success would be perfect in line with a return of Standing Areas. Free public transport for ticketed fans on match-days would be the next logical step. That would help with transportation issues.

I'm actually emailing the FSF about that right now.


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

KeepRightOn said:


> For example, if a seat at a ground was £25, the standing area would be £18-20. That's just guesswork, but I would not be expecting £30 - £40 to stand, it's just inconceivable in my opinion. There would be an uproar if that happened.


If fans here want standing so much, they'd pay that. Face it, many are paying more than that and standing up anyway at the moment.

Brentford are charging £25 to stand, £30 to sit, so at most I think clubs would knock a quarter of the ticket price off. When seats are over £40, there's no way terrace prices would be under £30.


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

KeepRightOn said:


> Which is why another German Soccer Success would be perfect in line with a return of Standing Areas. Free public transport for ticketed fans on match-days would be the next logical step. That would help with transportation issues.
> 
> I'm actually emailing the FSF about that right now.


Unfortunately there's no chance of that with a privatised transport infrastructure


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Rev Stickleback said:


> If fans here want standing so much, they'd pay that. Face it, many are paying more than that and standing up anyway at the moment.
> 
> Brentford are charging £25 to stand, £30 to sit, so at most I think clubs would knock a quarter of the ticket price off. When seats are over £40, there's no way terrace prices would be under £30.


I honestly cannot fathom £30+ to stand when other Countries are far far cheaper. I think it will go against everything the FSF have worked towards. It will be a real death nell for me if that happened. 

I would say part of the reason the terraces are so expensive at places like Griffin Park is that the club don't actually want them, they want to go all seater and need to there standing place prices have to show that.

If the legislation comes in and the law is changed there IMO would have to be a blanket price cap for standing areas, anything else would be an utter disgrace.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Rev Stickleback said:


> Unfortunately there's no chance of that with a privatised transport infrastructure


Oh:hmm: That sucks big time. This Country :down:


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

KeepRightOn said:


> I honestly cannot fathom £30+ to stand when other Countries are far far cheaper.


They are far cheaper because terracing has always been far cheaper there. 

There used to be the same price difference here about 30 years ago, but the gap has just slowly closed over the years. 

They also don't pay mediocre domestic talent vastly inflated salaries like we do.



> I would say part of the reason the terraces are so expensive at places like Griffin Park is that the club don't actually want them


That's nonsense. Griffin Park has always had terracing, and with a new ground on the horizon there'd be no point going all-seater, especially as it'd cost money to do, and they'd make less money as a result.

Terracing being about 75% of the price of the cheapest seats is the norm throughout all the leagues, down until you get deep into non-league, where you either have general admission all at the same price, or it's maybe an extra £1 to go in the stand.


Really, it can cost £17 to stand in the conference these days, and about £20 to sit.

The "Twenty is plenty" brigade just don't have a clue.



> If the legislation comes in and the law is changed there IMO would have to be a blanket price cap for standing areas, anything else would be an utter disgrace.


Why?

There's no blanket price cap for seats.

Yes, It'd be nice if terraces were cheap, but what club is going to convert to terracing if the net result would be a big drop in income?


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

You know what, you are right Rev. I suppose someone making that point like that it kinda makes sense. Rushall Olympic near me is Level 8 or 9? and it is £9, At Sutton its a tenner. Yeah, I cant imagine tickets in a standing area in the PL being £12 or something equally as unrealistic. I think the prices have got so high that any kind of drastic decrease would be at such a price differential compared to the seats that the fans in the seats would be outraged. 

Rev, a question. Where do you see this all ending up? What is your view on it? Can you see standing areas in the Top two divisions?


PS - I'm going to have good read of your blog, looks good.


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

KeepRightOn said:


> Rev, a question. Where do you see this all ending up? What is your view on it? Can you see standing areas in the Top two divisions?


I think eventually it'll come, and with normal terracing too. 

A big step will be if the Hillsborough inquest comes out and implies that the complete ban was an overreaction. I think the authorities know there's no real case any more, but nobody wants to be the one to make the decision.

I don't think a lifting of restrictions will see a rush of clubs converting to terracing though. 

I can see it being limited to home fans only, which should nullify the hooligan angle to a large degree. I think if they specified that home terracing needs to be an the opposite end from the away fans, it'll actually mean less needle in grounds than now.

My guess is probably 5-10 years from now, but it is obviously just a guess.


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## Riise (Nov 12, 2006)

KeepRightOn said:


> Free public transport for ticketed fans on match-days would be the next logical step. That would help with transportation issues.


Unless the local facilities are already operating at maximum capacity as they are around the Emirates.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Rev Stickleback said:


> I think eventually it'll come, and with normal terracing too.
> 
> A big step will be if the Hillsborough inquest comes out and implies that the complete ban was an overreaction. I think the authorities know there's no real case any more, but nobody wants to be the one to make the decision.
> 
> ...



Why do you think normal terracing could return? Do you think that when legislation changes the clubs will just think '**** it, lets go the whole hog'?

I can't see it myself. I think the best we will get will be Rail Standing and a 2.1 person to seat ratio. It will give clubs the safe option and also increase the capacity as well.

I can see things changing pretty soon. Like I've said before in previous posts, the Celtic trial is huge and news like the developments in Wales are only helping the situation. And like you say, after the inquiry is over there will be nothing standing in anybodies way pardon the pun. 

I don't expect drastically cheaper ticket prices nor do I expect the alcohol law to change but standing areas will be the best thing to happen in years.

PS Great blog, really enjoying it.


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## Kerrybai (Apr 29, 2013)

KeepRightOn said:


> Which is why another German Soccer Success would be perfect in line with a return of Standing Areas. Free public transport for ticketed fans on match-days would be the next logical step. That would help with transportation issues.
> 
> I'm actually emailing the FSF about that right now.


I don't get this at all, how would that alleviate the transport problems for a team like Arsenal? Everyones already taking the local transport, its not like any drives to the games.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

But what is Hooliganism in 2016? Kids in Rockport and Stone Island pavement dancing? Just because you would have terraced areas back in English football doesn't mean the likes of the 1986 Zulus and Yids are going to return to have pitch running battles. Modern technology and policing would put pay to that. Why aren't there running battles in League 1 and 2?

All you ever hear is 'It's not safe' and that is what needs to be addressed.


PS - The terrace at Exeter looked fantastic tonight. An utter disgrace it isn't allowed in the top two divisions, a disgrace.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

I don't want to keep bring up Liverpool but this thread is fascinating. Just because the Liverpool fans were not loud against Exeter it proves Standing is not the way to go, apparently.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=154980.6440



> The idea that standing would improve the atmosphere is a lazy one in my opinion.
> 
> You're either going to chime in with the songs and chants, or you're not. I've been in numerous stadiums, both standing and seating (a lot of standing here in Ireland) and it doesn't make a difference to me, I'll sing for the duration of the game. I prefer to stand, but sitting certainly doesn't, and will never inhibit my contribution to the atmosphere.


We all know that it is the people in the stand that will make the atmosphere. Doesn't matter whether it is seats or a terrace. What we DO know is that the terraces give everybody a better chance to get a better atmosphere going.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Great picture from Bayern Munich.


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## Leedsrule (Apr 6, 2010)

KeepRightOn said:


> We all know that it is the people in the stand that will make the atmosphere. Doesn't matter whether it is seats or a terrace. What we DO know is that the terraces give everybody a better chance to get a better atmosphere going.


I actually completely agree with the quote you put. When i follow Woking, some grounds we go to are all seater or seated away ends. We sing just as much regardless. Youre a pretty rubbish supporter if you refuse to sing sitting down. Atmosphere is about the team and the fans. Good fans can create an atmosphere in any stadium, seats or standing. Look at the noise around wembley when dortmund played munich there.


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

KeepRightOn said:


> But what is Hooliganism in 2016? Kids in Rockport and Stone Island pavement dancing? Just because you would have terraced areas back in English football doesn't mean the likes of the 1986 Zulus and Yids are going to return to have pitch running battles. Modern technology and policing would put pay to that. Why aren't there running battles in League 1 and 2?


You, I, and the vast majority of football fans know that, but these people are convinced that all-seater stadiums are what stops our grounds from being riot zones. Facts and evidence mean nothing to these people most of the time, but if hooliganism was the issue, you can at least show the methods that would make it less likely.

One of the big factors, to me anyway, is that by showing that the away fans will be at the opposite end of the pitch from the home fans on the terraces, it'll actually minimise the amount of gormless arms-spread posturing and incitement that you get now.



> All you ever hear is 'It's not safe' and that is what needs to be addressed.


I agree, but the sum of the whole absurdly contradictory sports ground legislation, based on the sport being played and the level it is played at, shows that terracing, in itself, is not unsafe. If it was unsafe, it'd be banned everywhere.


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## matthemod (Apr 8, 2008)

Terracing itself isn't a pre-requisite for good atmosphere, what terracing allows however (and I'm talking traditional terracing here, not safe standing) is for you and your friends, and for the more vocal support to congregate together.

All seated stands, which assign you a designated seat spreads these most likely vocal supporters around a stand, depending on where seats are available at the time. No longer can fans turn up 5 minutes before a game and make their way to the areas where the fans who sing tend to stand. Some teams have tried to rectify this in all seaters by talking about introducing "singing sections" or "unreserved sections", which just seems to be a slack attempt at trying to recreate the environment of the terraces but with seats.

It's the same reason why these days it seems away fans are generally better than home fans at creating an atmosphere. Yes you generally are given a designated seat, but there's an unwritten code that largely ignores this if you want to stand at the back and sing.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

I actually don't know the answer to this and would like some confirmation but I am sure 'Rail Standing' areas are unreserved areas. If it is a 1.8 ratio you cannot have a specific seat space surely?


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

matthemod said:


> It's the same reason why these days it seems away fans are generally better than home fans at creating an atmosphere. Yes you generally are given a designated seat, but there's an unwritten code that largely ignores this if you want to stand at the back and sing.


Also, the fans that go away tend to be more committed, more passionate about the game, and much less likely to just sit back and watch as a spectator.

The game will mean more to them than just being an entertainment alternative.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

KeepRightOn said:


> I actually don't know the answer to this and would like some confirmation but I am sure 'Rail Standing' areas are unreserved areas. If it is a 1.8 ratio you cannot have a specific seat space surely?


Looking at this pic below makes me think it is unreserved spaces with Rail Standing. It probably just says 'Admission Terrace' on the ticket.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Thought I would post some pictures of fans standing in seated areas.





























Stating the Obvious I know but ultimately the only reason why this is allowed is because these people are paying £30-60 to get in. Simple as that. As long as they pay up, why care what they do.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Love this pic from the BayArena. Not just 18-30 year old men I can see.











We just have to look on with envy, I suppose.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2016)

Isn't it fairly typical to see away fans stand? Seems to be the case with most BPL games I watch. For whatever reason, the home fans that are next to the away fans seem to be standing quite often too.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

5portsF4n said:


> Isn't it fairly typical to see away fans stand? Seems to be the case with most BPL games I watch. For whatever reason, the home fans that are next to the away fans seem to be standing quite often too.


Yes, and is my argument. I would say 95% of Away fans stand in Premier League and Championship matches, and you are right, there is always a minority of Home fans that will congregate next to the away section. Is this a good idea? Not really. Are we completely sure all of those fans want to stand? No we are not.

If we had specific standing areas it would help stop these problems, IMO of course. At both ends of each stadium, have a large standing room only 'Home End' and a standing room only 'Away Section'. Problem solved.


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## matthemod (Apr 8, 2008)

KeepRightOn said:


> If we had specific standing areas it would help stop these problems, IMO of course. At both ends of each stadium, have a large standing room only 'Home End' and a standing room only 'Away Section'. Problem solved.


This is exactly what so many people seem to be overlooking. Stadiums in the old days used to be three sides of terracing, and one main stand with some seats for the posh folks. I wonder how many people when talking about the possibility of reintroducing terracing, think it would rip out their seats and forcibly make them stand.

A handful of sections around the ground is really all most people who would like a return of terracing are asking for right now. I personally have a seat at Priestfield and don't mind sitting, but it would be nice to even have the option.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

The picture below is the most perfect example of how a stand should be in the top two divisions in England. The top tier is seated and the bottom is the 'Rail Standing'. You could do the same at the opposite end. It's coming


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## Bigmac1212 (Nov 2, 2004)

I saw two outfield standing room only areas in the outfield of Oriole Park at Camden Yards in Baltimore. There is plenty of room for standing room at AT&T Stadium (formerly Cowboys Stadium) in Arlington, TX, for Dallas Cowboys game, if they don't fill the stands full of seats. There's way of doing standing room areas.


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

Bigmac1212 said:


> There is plenty of room for standing room at AT&T Stadium (formerly Cowboys Stadium) in Arlington, TX, for Dallas Cowboys game


I don't think that's really the same thing though. It's more of a beer terrace where people can go to the bar and get a drink, and watch the game on the big screens (and they certainly have those at AT&T).

As those areas are flat, the number of people who'd actually be actually able to watch the game on the field wouldn't be that high.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

From twitter.


> Interesting news here today, PSV Eindhoven unveiled plans for a safe standing area in their stadium


Hopefully true. Really good news


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## Juanpabloangel (Jun 7, 2015)

Psv have a fairly small stadium, so its good for them to get extra fans in... Having said that, the Dutch still have immense problems with hooligans.... They may not be obvious but if you are a fan of Ajax but live in Rotterdam, you must travel from Rotterdam to amsterdam to be able to take the fans bus/train to return there to watch the game and vice versa. At least that is how it was a couple of years ago, when I did a tour of the arena.

I think the best option for safe standing would be to allow the smallest clubs who already sell out in the EPL to make an area for safe standing first, such as Bournemouth or Norwich. Would give them a competetive edge.... No alcohol though.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Why no alcohol? You are not allowed to drink in the stand anyway in the UK, only on the concourses behind the stand. So you want a blanket ban of alcohol even on the concourses of 'Rail Standing' areas? Bit extreme I must say.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Stehplatz (General Admission) Tickets Bundesliga 2014/2016




























Just a bit of a difference with regards to prices with England.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

http://northernpitch.com/articles.h...design-might-as-well-make-standing-safer-r649



> These days, vanishingly few people are against standing at soccer games – as long as measures are taken to make it safer. Fans will stand at Minnesota United matches; the club might as well make safety, rather than sitting, a priority.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

A few Pics from the 4,000 capacity, Standing End at the new Orlando Stadium, looks great.


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## Leedsrule (Apr 6, 2010)

Stop posting 7+ times in a row!!! You've posted over half of the comments in this thread- if noone is responding stop just bumping it up with random posts! and if you want to add relevant information edit your last post rather than creating a new one each time!


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Sorry I offended. I will leave the thread now. Sorry.


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## aquamaroon (Dec 7, 2015)

Well to chime in on the other side I like your posts! safe standing isn't something we have a lot of history with in the US, so it's cool seeing another sporting culture's architecture trends. Keep up the good work! :cheers: kay:


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## aquamaroon (Dec 7, 2015)

KeepRightOn said:


> A few Pics from the 4,000 capacity, Standing End at the new Orlando Stadium, looks great.


Yeah that Orlando stand will be a big hit with their fans! I can imagine this quickly catching on throughout the MLS, as it's both less expensive than all seating, and also a more "authentic" soccer experience for fans. Just to throw it out there I can see the San Jose quakes adding a safe standing tier to the fourth side of avaya stadium around their bar area, and DC united could do that for their "Kop" end in their new stadium.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

aquamaroon said:


> Well to chime in on the other side I like your posts! safe standing isn't something we have a lot of history with in the US, so it's cool seeing another sporting culture's architecture trends. Keep up the good work! :cheers: kay:


Thanks mate. I really appreciate it. If I posted too much I apologize but my ultimate goal with this thread was to and hopefully still is to keep Standing Areas in peoples minds. 

All positive news stories, pictures and peoples 'thoughts' on the matter that could potentially turn just one person who has never been interested in or been educated by the modern forms of Safe Standing areas around the world and in the end understanding that it is actually a bloody good idea and ultimately common sense. 

It is, at the end of the day, something I am deeply passionate about and something that is long needed within the top divisions of UK Soccer..


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## aquamaroon (Dec 7, 2015)

^^
Yeah absolutely! Honestly I've only really learned of safe standing through the posts here on SSC. And like I said, I find the safe standing issue very interesting myself. Mostly because it seems like such a HUGE part of english soccer/football. Rather, the lack thereof of it seems to be huge. I guess, is it because safe standing is tied a certain match day culture/experience? and with it taken away the modern day match experience isn't what it should be, or it's inauthentic? Seems like there is a lot of history tied to it that I don't know that well as an outsider, which is why posts like this are nice to see!
I'll keep an eye out myself, and if I see any safe standing news in soccer I'll be sure to post it here :cheers:


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## Leedsrule (Apr 6, 2010)

KeepRightOn said:


> Sorry I offended. I will leave the thread now. Sorry.


Im not saying leave at all im just saying don't make seven posts in a row haha


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Leedsrule said:


> Im not saying leave at all im just saying don't make seven posts in a row haha


No worries mate, I got your back up with my posting, thats cool. I will take a step back.


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## Tobermaury (Jul 20, 2013)

Leedsrule said:


> Stop posting 7+ times in a row!!! You've posted over half of the comments in this thread- if noone is responding stop just bumping it up with random posts! and if you want to add relevant information edit your last post rather than creating a new one each time!


If it bothers you then you should stop reading it

I enjoy this thread, Keeprighton, and find the updates relevant and timely. Your contributions have so much more value than so much else on this entire website. At least when you bump your thread there's something worthwhile there, instead of some angst-ridden, whining internet-person


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Tobermaury said:


> If it bothers you then you should stop reading it
> 
> I enjoy this thread, Keeprighton, and find the updates relevant and timely. Your contributions have so much more value than so much else on this entire website. At least when you bump your thread there's something worthwhile there, instead of some angst-ridden, whining internet-person


Thanks mate, I appreciate it. I checked the posting rules and I don't think I actually did anything wrong with my posting. Was an odd one but you and aqua have made me realise I am doing some good with this thread so will continue


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Another good read this week, this time from Yahoo.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/time-safe-standing-201452706.html



> The spectre of safe standing – that is rail type seating as found in many German grounds which can be flicked to seats or can provide a barrier to lean on when fans stand - finds approval among British football fans. They’d welcome lower admission prices as more people can be housed in the same area.
> 
> In Germany, the ratio is up to two standing fans per seat. Being able to stand with their mates makes for a better atmosphere, with more fans in the same section.


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## Tobermaury (Jul 20, 2013)

KeepRightOn said:


> Thanks mate, I appreciate it. I checked the posting rules and I don't think I actually did anything wrong with my posting. Was an odd one but you and aqua have made me realise I am doing some good with this thread so will continue


I'll contribute more as and when I can and, as and when I have something worthwhile to add, but don't think that just because you're the only one posting it's not appreciated or of interest. 

I'm amazed how timely your thread is given the amount in the news about safe standing lately. It's like you pre-empted it. I'm also now more confident that safe standing will become part of our game again thanks to your updates


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## OnwardsAndUpwards (Mar 26, 2015)

That terrace in Orlando looks far bigger than 4,000 capacity. I'd have thought you could get close to twice as many in there. Also the sheer number of barriers is surprising. It looks like rail seating only without the seats. Is it supposed to be one row of people for each barrier? It looks like there is a flat standing section behind each barrier but three steps on the staircase between each barrier. Combined with the apparent steepness it should provide an excellent view. Not quite my ideal terrace, which would be much closer to the traditional European standing area but certainly interesting and providing many advantages. This sort of terrace is probably very female friendly as the density isn't so high and shorter people are not at such a disadvantage.

I have no problem with someone posting lots of times in a single thread providing they are all relevant and are not repetitive.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Tobermaury said:


> I'll contribute more as and when I can and, as and when I have something worthwhile to add, but don't think that just because you're the only one posting it's not appreciated or of interest.
> 
> I'm amazed how timely your thread is given the amount in the news about safe standing lately. It's like you pre-empted it. I'm also now more confident that safe standing will become part of our game again thanks to your updates


I have been involved in various forums for years with regards to safe standing. There was a forum many years ago called 'StandUpSitDown' which was an initial group of people that came together and started the first campaigns. I was a member of the forum but didn't volunteer or go to any of the events. This was around 2008 through 2012 I would say.

As the years have gone on and unofficial standing areas have become more prevalent within UK grounds you cannot really get away from it. It has become so obvious that the time has come (after the Hillsborough inquiry of course) for the laws to change or be relaxed.

2016 sees the first 'Rail Standing' trial in Scotland with Celtic and the Hillsborough inquiry ends in a few months I think. It is finally coming. It has been a slow process but I can now finally see the light.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

OnwardsAndUpwards said:


> That terrace in Orlando looks far bigger than 4,000 capacity. I'd have thought you could get close to twice as many in there. Also the sheer number of barriers is surprising. It looks like rail seating only without the seats. Is it supposed to be one row of people for each barrier? It looks like there is a flat standing section behind each barrier but three steps on the staircase between each barrier. Combined with the apparent steepness it should provide an excellent view. Not quite my ideal terrace, which would be much closer to the traditional European standing area but certainly interesting and providing many advantages. This sort of terrace is probably very female friendly as the density isn't so high and shorter people are not at such a disadvantage.
> 
> I have no problem with someone posting lots of times in a single thread providing they are all relevant and are not repetitive.


I must admit it does look bigger than 4,000. It looks like a 4,000 seated stand but with it been a standing area I would think it would be more like 6,000.


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## matthemod (Apr 8, 2008)

KeepRightOn said:


> Sorry I offended. I will leave the thread now. Sorry.


No need to apologise KeepRightOn, half this forum are individual posters keeping threads alive by posting what they're enthusiastic about, at the end of the day as long as it's on topic and current then all the best to you. Just look at the England Stadium Development thread and imagine how empty it'd be without RMB!


----------



## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

matthemod said:


> No need to apologise KeepRightOn, half this forum are individual posters keeping threads alive by posting what they're enthusiastic about, at the end of the day as long as it's on topic and current then all the best to you. Just look at the England Stadium Development thread and imagine how empty it'd be without RMB!


Thanks mate. Yeah, like I've said, it's all about keeping Safe Standing in peoples minds. And at the moment it is pretty prevalent within new stadium builds across the globe so it is important, In my opinion anyway, to show that and to highlight the success of Standing areas in other parts of the world and how it can work in the Premier League and Championship.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

A travesty is unfolding in European stadia, and I hope someone (police, health and safety authorities) come in full force to mandate all-seating stadia. Maybe some EU regulation could be passed, but I don't hold my breath over that. Safe standing is an oxymoron of course.


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## Lumbergo (Nov 17, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> A travesty is unfolding in European stadia, and I hope someone (police, health and safety authorities) come in full force to mandate all-seating stadia. Maybe some EU regulation could be passed, but I don't hold my breath over that. Safe standing is an oxymoron of course.


 :troll:


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> A travesty is unfolding in European stadia, and I hope someone (police, health and safety authorities) come in full force to mandate all-seating stadia. Maybe some EU regulation could be passed, but I don't hold my breath over that. Safe standing is an oxymoron of course.


Too right. They can then push those prices right up and create the category system that is oh so successful in the UK. 

:lol:


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> A travesty is unfolding in European stadia, and I hope someone (police, health and safety authorities) come in full force to mandate all-seating stadia. Maybe some EU regulation could be passed, but I don't hold my breath over that. Safe standing is an oxymoron of course.


Why are you so much against something that you clearly have no actual experience of?


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Good to see Safe Standing make its way to Russia.


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## thetote (Jan 11, 2015)

For those who have used rail seating like that shown above, how does the waist height bar running horizontally get in the way when you are sitting down? Seems to be the perfect height for going right across ones face.


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## MrYoung (Mar 4, 2008)

I had my first experience with rail seating yesterday, and I thought it was great. Better than I had expected. There was one unlocked seat so I tried sitting down after the match to check, and the bar did not obstruct my view.


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## Kerrybai (Apr 29, 2013)

I want to make a quick point about standing.

I have some friends who attended the Celtic vs Kilmarnock game some years back where Celtic won the title with a free kick in the dying minutes. 

The Celtic fans behind the goal where standing in a seated area. When the crowd erupted several people got injured including one of the people I have mentioned. These injuries weren't serious but they were a result of people standing in a seated area. Some people simply suffered bruises from those behind them trying to rush down toward the pitch where the players came to celebrate. 

One of my friends in question once pushed onto a seat that had been broken when someone jumped on it and ended up with a gash on his leg requiring 3 stitches. 

From my experience standing in seated areas can be quite dangerous and for the reason we must push on through with safe standing.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

A great piece from Jon Darch.



> With more and more new build stadiums around the world adopting safe standing will England and Wales be left behind? Safe Standing Roadshow's Jon Darch looks at the issue...


http://www.fsf.org.uk/blog/view/saf...liga-eredivisie-leaving-premier-league-behind


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

A good video from a Dortmund fan explaining the differences of modern standing areas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKGTxA5QA64&feature=youtu.be&a


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Ajax to get there own specific standing area.

http://stadiumdb.com/news/2016/04/amsterdam_standing_section_in_illumination_out


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## thetote (Jan 11, 2015)

To be honest, this issue frustrates me quite a bit, simply because when people talk about safe standing at games, they start talking about massive open pens with thousands of fans. And how it'll bring us back to the old days off hooliganism etc. 

But I go to games, both home and away, and watch as thousands of people stand up to watch and celebrate with nothing to help stop a crush other than a plastic chair in front of them, perfectly positioned to trip them up. 

Surely a system such as rail seating is the answer. I don't get how I can get told of by an usher for standing to sing, yet away fans can do it for an entire game and nobody bats an eyelid. 

That video of the German fan sums up how strange it looks to those on the outside. I don't think I've been to a football game where 90% of the atmosphere wasn't created by the fans that were standing.


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## Isaac Newell (May 17, 2004)

Terracing is perfectly safe if you don't let in more than a ground can hold, have fences that exacerbate a crush, have a stadium located in a warren of streets that can contribute to a crush outside and have a police force that treats football fans with contempt. Wembley regularly held around 120,000 with about 80,000 standing without any casualties.


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## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

The transformation in Eindhoven has begun:






Video is in Dutch.


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## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

Is there regulation in Portugal that demand that they have a moat between the stands and the pitch? 
I've seen the same thing in Brazil. Seems a bit drastic, no?


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## Fern (Dec 3, 2004)

1772 said:


> Is there regulation in Portugal that demand that they have a moat between the stands and the pitch?


No and in fact hardly any stadium has a moat between the stands and the pitch. Wouldn't make sense given that serious incidents inside the stadiums are very rare in Portugal. The worst I can remember was from 1996, when someone shot a very light which accidentally killed another supporter. A moat would have been useless to prevent such an incident. In addition, moats are dangerous on their own.


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## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

Huh, I could swear I've seen this on portugese stadias. Maybe I saw wrong.


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## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

This looks like a moat


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## Fern (Dec 3, 2004)

It is a moat and it's just about the only one among dozens of stadiums throughout the country. There are plans to cover it up since several accidents have taken place with people falling into the moat, eg: http://www.tsf.pt/desporto/sporting...do-mais-grave-diz-godinho-lopes--2106281.html


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## tony_soprano (May 17, 2015)

https://t.co/iNGyEXabzU


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## www.sercan.de (Aug 10, 2003)

what will be the capacity at Eindhoven?


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## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

No big change as they don't plan to allow more people on the stand after it has been converted to safe standing (i.e. 1 visitor per seat). They will add one additional row which will add about 125. They may add some additional rows in the future (which should add a maximum of about 800 seats) but they can't do that right now due to contractual obligations with the organizers of a series of music concerts during the summer. The total safe standing area will have a capacity of about 2450 for now.


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Celtic's Safe Standing is coming along nicely.


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## Épicolx (Dec 28, 2015)

Épicolx said:


> This week, holders of the Benfica season pass (aka "Redpass") have been informed that the Sagres stand (specifically the bottom tier of the south stand) *will not be available for commercialisation starting in the 17/18 season once the regular seats will be replaced by rail seats and the stand will become solely destined for the allocation of the supporter groups, "No Name Boys" and "Diabos Vermelhos". It will be a safe standing zone.*


Looks like "safe standing" is expanding to southern Europe. :cheers:


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## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

Conversion in Eindhoven is ongoing:


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Already looks great at Celtic


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

SAFE STANDING: WHY IT'S TIME TO REMOVE THE BAN

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...c076d9f5ab60/1470752692672/SafeStanding-1.pdf


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## spud (Mar 2, 2006)

KeepRightOn said:


> Already looks great at Celtic


Any idea what the new capacity is at celtic park?


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## KeepRightOn (Dec 29, 2010)

Capacity has stayed the same. The Safe Standing section of 2,900 is a 1.1 ratio as in 1 person per 1 seat.


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## carlosfng (Mar 1, 2010)

1772 said:


> Is there regulation in Portugal that demand that they have a moat between the stands and the pitch?
> I've seen the same thing in Brazil. Seems a bit drastic, no?


In Brazil and in Latin America in general moats are still used, albeit they are not prevalent. They are mostly relics from the era of grand circular or oval twentieth century stadiums, when most people in the ground stood and pitch invasions were even more common than now. And yes, there has been accidents and even deaths in moats (I remember reading about an Argentine Superclasico at River Plate's Monumental stadium in the 80s, where Boca Juniors won and in the craziness that ensued a kid fell from his dad's arms to his death in the moat). Due to experiences like that, recently moats have been filled with water, and others have been covered (most specially where they look unfit for purpose). But still some stadiums keep them, specially those where the old-school fences have been removed; incidents still happen as well, for example 1-2 years ago some hooligans in Ecuador threw a cop down the moat at Atahualpa Stadium. 

On the other hand, there still has yet to be seen a death due to trampling on terraces in Ecuador (which btw are usually barrierless, but with large steps to sit on); and instead there has been incidents of ripping up and throwing seats in anger after terrible results. Therefore I think that one can only do so much to make a stadium safe - in the end, it befalls to the fans' conduct, which is a reflection of society at large. Thus, while I too believe in safe standing, because it seems like the perfect compromise between enforcing safety and allowing atmosphere, it really in the end depends on the fans.


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## Kerrybai (Apr 29, 2013)

Football in England needs safe standing to protect fans. There was a crush at the United Hull game after the injury time winner.

https://twitter.com/CharHodges88/status/769614185542148096/photo/1










One fan broke his leg although its not confirmed exactly how it happened.










United player helping woman who is being crushed.


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## matthemod (Apr 8, 2008)

Of course that crush would never have happened if they had celebrated sitting quietly like we're supposed to do.


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## spud (Mar 2, 2006)

and that crush can't happen with rail seats either


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

*Premier League clubs’ opinions on safe standing*

Arsenal
A matter for government

Bournemouth
No comment

Burnley
Supportive if legislation permits

Chelsea
Will consider it if legislation permits

Crystal Palace
In favour

Everton
Not thinking about it at present

Hull City
Supportive if legislation permits

Leicester City
Open-minded

Liverpool
No comment

Manchester City
Open to the option

Manchester United
In favour in principle

Middlesbrough
No opinion until the parameters are clear

Southampton
Unclear

Stoke City
Open-minded

Sunderland
Understood to be broadly supportive

Swansea City
Supportive but final decision rests with the local council

Tottenham Hotspur
Supportive if legislation permits

Watford
In favour of trials

West Bromwich Albion
In favour

West Ham United
In favour

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...eturn-premier-league-meeting?CMP=share_btn_tw


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

Uh....

_NEW from @DCMS: "Government remains unconvinced by the case put forward for re-introducing standing accommodation at football grounds"_
https://twitter.com/RobHarris/status/829697517436682241


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## spud (Mar 2, 2006)

Yet stands and stadia are being built,in the lower leagues and other sports (rugby league),with standing terraces....


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## Rev Stickleback (Jun 23, 2009)

RobH said:


> Uh....
> 
> _NEW from @DCMS: "Government remains unconvinced by the case put forward for re-introducing standing accommodation at football grounds"_
> https://twitter.com/RobHarris/status/829697517436682241


Sadly it doesn't matter what evidence is presented, they'll always maintain this "unconvinced" stance.

Bringing back terracing, to the government, means bringing back hooliganism, and probably another Hillsborough.

No arguments will work as they don't want to listen. The only way it'll happen is if the premier league wants it.


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## matthemod (Apr 8, 2008)

Rev Stickleback said:


> Sadly it doesn't matter what evidence is presented, they'll always maintain this "unconvinced" stance.
> 
> Bringing back terracing, to the government, means bringing back hooliganism, and probably another Hillsborough.
> 
> No arguments will work as they don't want to listen. The only way it'll happen is if the premier league wants it.


It's not so much they refuse to listen, it's just not that important politically. So far the only major political party in the UK (and I use the term major very loosely) who seem to be open to the idea of safe standing returning are the Lib Dems, but it's easy to support very popular issues of minority groups when you have no real possibility of getting into power.

It's easier just to say "it's safe as it is, there's no need to change", rather than initiating a messy political battle when let's face it...most British politicians are a bit distracted by another big issue right now.


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> Another important development for 'safe standing' in British football tomorrow. More details @BBCSport from 8am and @bbc5live at 8.25am.


https://twitter.com/richard_conway


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## ObiUbamba (Jan 19, 2013)

West Brom I understand are the only team to have come forward and say they are in favour of trialing safe standing.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2017)

ObiUbamba said:


> West Brom I understand are the only team to have come forward and say they are in favour of trialing safe standing.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/27/shrewsbury-town-applies-safe-standing-rail-seats


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## ObiUbamba (Jan 19, 2013)

5portsF4n said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/27/shrewsbury-town-applies-safe-standing-rail-seats


I meant to say Premier League team. I know there is talk that Brentford may want safe standing in their new stadium at Lionel Road. It seems that the only real opposition in the Premier League is from Liverpool and Everton, because of Hillsborough.


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> League One side Shrewsbury Town have become the first English club to apply to have safe standing at their ground.
> 
> The club aims to have the rail seats fitted and in use, in a section of one stand, before the end of 2017/18.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40413087


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## Rover030 (Dec 6, 2016)

Honestly, this is a waste of money for such a club and their supporters. The only reason to have rail seats is because of the UEFA/UK all-seater requirement. The article and the video say that Shrewsbury is not affected by the all-seater law that only impacts the top 2 division clubs. 
Clubs like Shrewsbury should either demand subsidy from the FA because it is a trial, or just ask permission to install rails without seats, which would probably be less than 20 pounds per seat equivalent instead of 100 pounds.


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

Tottenham trialling safe standing seats in north stand of new stadium as part of construction. But don't get too excited. From their Twitter:

_*This is part of future proofing should legislation change. These seats are only being trialled.*_
https://twitter.com/SpursOfficial/status/890614372002799616



















https://twitter.com/TottenhamAMF/status/890539592759222274


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> *Safe Standing A Step Closer*
> 
> SGSA Approval Received -- Crowdfunding Campaign to Begin on 2nd August
> 
> ...


https://www.shrewsburytown.com/news/2017/july/safe-standing-a-step-closer/


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

> Liverpool supporters have voted in favour of rail seating, in an online poll run by a leading fans' group.
> 
> Spirit of Shankly had an "emotive and sensitive" debate on the issue before holding an open vote, and 88% of the 17,910 people who voted were in favour.
> 
> There were 5% against, while the rest were undecided or wanted to know more.


More @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40767568


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## ObiUbamba (Jan 19, 2013)

common sense prevails at Liverpool


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## thetote (Jan 11, 2015)

Deleted


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

> *Breaking:*
> 
> - West Bromwich Albion fail in attempt to introduce ‘safe standing’ at The Hawthorns next season.
> - Government rejects plan, no change to current policy on all seater stadiums.
> - WBA wanted 3600 rail seats, accuse @tracey_crouch of being “short sighted”


https://twitter.com/richard_conway/status/983328761390170113



> _Have followed this story for a number of months. WBA were fairly confident of approval. 3600 rail seats would have been introduced for home + away fans. Safety was the driving motivation. Difficult to see - given their meticulous application - if govt will ever now change policy._


https://twitter.com/richard_conway/status/983331399557148672


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

Government response:


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## matthemod (Apr 8, 2008)

It's the prejudice of it that is astounding. Why are thousands of rugby (both union and league) fans allowed to stand but not football fans?

Why is it theoretically possible for a 40'000 terraced ground in league 1 or 2 to be legal, but a small section of 1'000 safe standing seats in the Championship illegal?

I swear this debate has been going on for over 20 years, and it's always the same response "No plans to change the legislation at this time."


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## Hemi 426 (Sep 1, 2015)

Since thousands of fans already stand in seated areas to watch their clubs play every week, I'd like to congratulate the government on their steadfast refusal to make the situation safer for those people. Superb 'head in the sand' mentality from our glorious leaders towards the oiks. 


:grumpy:


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

*Safe standing petition if anyone wants to sign and share it...*
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

^^ Nearly hit the magical 100k for a debate in Parliament
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040


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## matthemod (Apr 8, 2008)

RobH said:


> ^^ Nearly hit the magical 100k for a debate in Parliament
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040


100K reached! :cheers1:

Edit: Whoops...got a bit excited.


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

^^ That's one seventh of the world's population


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## Harry1990 (Feb 5, 2010)

hi everyone big supporter of the safe standing movement in England. I was hoping to do a thread on Skysrapercity at some point but im sure the MODs might take it down.

Id love to do a custom database for Football Manager 2018 with safe standing around the world but mainly centering on the English pyramid, with the usual European teams. Id like to do one stand in each ground safe standing and see what kind of capacities would come out, if England would become the most attended league in Europe that kind of thing. I know very few stand capacities but hopefully members on here would be alot more knowledgeable than i am. Id even make the new stadiums and any proposed stadiums, hopefully its something people might be interested in.


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## Sheppard Fiddler (Nov 25, 2009)

The majority of safe standing areas work on an approx. 1 for 1 comparative capacity basis as seating. This is partly due to the existing toilets, concessions and concourse spaces already present being the limiting factor.

My understanding is that the position that spectators stand in is the same location that they would have been sitting in, but with the seat is up in a locked position - therefore the capacities are more or less like for like.


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## Leedsrule (Apr 6, 2010)

So, a hypothetical question I wanted to ask the other week has now become a reality. Labour, today, announced that they would abolish the ban on safe standing in England's top 2 divisions if elected, leaving powers in the hands of local councils or football clubs. I was wondering, for how many of you will this be taken into account if a general election was called next week? Would any non-voters/ tory/ ukip/ other voters switch to Labour for this policy alone? Would any pro-labour but anti safe standing voters change their mind because of this policy? Does anyone feel that passionately about it?

I would be surprised (albeit pleased) if anyone would genuinely change who they would vote for because of this policy alone. I suspect it is far more likely to attract football fans who otherwise wouldn't vote at all. Interested to know others opinions.


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

No, I'm not going to decide what cake to buy on the basis that one has a little cherry on the top.


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

> *Club’s future-proofed areas offer new concept in safe standing debate *
> 
> *Tottenham Hotspur Football Club today revealed the design of seating areas that have been future-proofed for safe standing within its new 62,000 capacity stadium, set to open later this year.*
> 
> ...































More @ http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/new...r-new-concept-in-safe-standing-debate-250618/


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> Safe Standing launches successfully against Bradford City
> 
> Shrewsbury Town became the first club in England and Wales to operate a safe standing section on Saturday with the fixture against Bradford City.
> 
> ...


https://www.shrewsburytown.com/news/2018/august/shrewsbury-town-make-history/


----------



## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> FOUR CLUBS TO TRIAL SAFE STANDING IN FRENCH FOOTBALL
> 
> The French Football League (LFP) has announced that four clubs across the top two divisions of the domestic game will trial safe standing during the forthcoming 2018-19 season.
> 
> ...


www.thestadiumbusiness.com/2018/07/13/four-clubs-trial-safe-standing-french-football/


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> The Football Association has lent its support to safe standing at football grounds in England if there is "clear evidence that satisfies authorities".
> 
> The Premier League and EFL have also said they would support clubs' choice to install safe standing in the top two tiers of English football.
> 
> ...


https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45341192


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## Jim856796 (Jun 1, 2006)

*La Liga and Premier League Have Their First Railings*

Athletic Club and Tottenham made strides during March and April as the first teams in their respective leagues to install safe standing sections. The safe-standing section at San Mames has only 75 rail seats. The one at New White Hart Lane is far more significant in scale: 7,500 rail seats!

Source: StadiumDB.com.


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> Safe standing imminent at a ‘number’ of Premier League stadiums, talkSPORT told
> 
> Ferco Seating's Managing Director, Michael Burnett, has revealed clubs are in talks with the company over rail seating installations
> 
> ...


https://talksport.com/football/534893/safe-standing-premier-league-stadiums/



> Majority of MPs back safe standing in England's top two divisions
> 
> Nearly two-thirds of MPs believe the all-seater stadium rule should be scrapped to allow safe standing in English football's top two tiers, a YouGov survey has found.


https://www.skysports.com/football/...k-safe-standing-in-englands-top-two-divisions


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

Why are the concepts of safe standing and all-seater considered wholly separate? Why is it that when pundits talk about the laws they describe it as if it HAS to be that safe standing = more capacity than the all-seater version? To me it seems insanely simple to keep capacity numbers the same but just ensure the design is capable of seating everyone and has safety measures in place to curtail crushing. Then if they wish to stand let 'em stand. Simple as.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2019)

I dont get it either. Does Spurs new stadium not technically have safe standing. Everyone gets a seat designated, but because of railing, it becomes a standing section. Same as in Bundesliga.

As I understand it, safe standing is about improving atmosphere, not capacity.


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## Temporarily Exiled (Sep 12, 2018)

As a supporter of the team with the largest standing terrace in the English football league, I worry a little about legislation regarding 'safe standing'. The Big Bank at St James Park has an official capacity of about 4,000, but it's only really legal because the legislation on all-seater grounds was never extended to lower leagues (and we've never been successful enough for that to kick in). Unless an exemption is granted again, it may mean a lot of lower league teams having to spend a significant amount of money and significantly reducing their capacity in order to comply with any new obligations.

I can't imagine something like this would remain legal if politicians decide to legislate again:


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

5portsF4n said:


> I dont get it either. Does Spurs new stadium not technically have safe standing.


What Spurs are doing is really highlighting the silliness of the current regulations.

No, Spurs don't have safe standing. Not officially (they're calling it "safe seating") and not _quite_ technically (because the seats aren't locked upright). The stadium simply has rails in front of each seat in certain sections. :lol:

What's the difference? Well, not much. If safe standing is made legal, the club will be able to lock the seats upright (they're designed so that can happen) to create an official standing section, and stewards obviously won't have to police people persistently standing.

So....errrrr....yeah. That's where we're at.


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

5portsF4n said:


> I dont get it either. Does Spurs new stadium not technically have safe standing. Everyone gets a seat designated, but because of railing, it becomes a standing section. Same as in Bundesliga.


I know the German clubs allow more people in the standing sections for domestic matches. For instance, Dortmund's Yellow Wall is about 20k for Bundesliga matches but only about 16k for UEFA events. I would imagine that if kept to a 1:1 ratio between events the FA would feel more comfortable about prospective standing. 

And as a person traditionally in such ends so would I! 



RobH said:


> What Spurs are doing is really highlighting the silliness of the current regulations.
> 
> No, Spurs don't have safe standing. Not officially (they're calling it "safe seating") and not _quite_ technically (because the seats aren't locked upright). The stadium simply has rails in front of each seat in certain sections. :lol:
> 
> What's the difference? Well, not much. If safe standing is made legal, the club will be able to lock the seats upright (they're designed so that can happen) to create an official standing section, and stewards obviously won't have to police people persistently standing.


I presume the only need to lock the seats would be to allow additional capacity? Otherwise what's the point? I sit during halftime and after a match for Atlanta so I'm grateful for the seat. 

Also... "safe seating?" Does this mean the rest of the stadium features _UN_safe seating?!


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## OnwardsAndUpwards (Mar 26, 2015)

GunnerJacket said:


> I know the German clubs allow more people in the standing sections for domestic matches. For instance, Dortmund's Yellow Wall is about 20k for Bundesliga matches but only about 16k for UEFA events. I would imagine that if kept to a 1:1 ratio between events the FA would feel more comfortable about prospective standing.
> 
> And as a person traditionally in such ends so would I!
> 
> ...


Dortmund have proper terracing for part of that end. They bolt the seats on for Champions League matches. Total capacity is 81,365 including 28,337 standing and 65,829 when all seater. So I reckon they convert at a ratio of around 1.82:1. It might be different between the terrace areas and the rail seating areas.


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

Which to me is two different issues - Standing and total capacity. I wish the FA would view them as separate issues, as well, so we could more quickly move the discussion past the alarmist stance. Standing is about structural safety measures and operational policy and is not forever linked with the concept of increased capacity.


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## Bigmac1212 (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm pretty sure there's a standing area in the "South" endzone of State Farm Stadium (formely University of Phoenix Stadium, home of the NFL's Arizona Cardinals.)


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> *UK Sports Minister Nigel Adams has pledged that the government will look to make progress on reforming the all-seater legislation that covers football stadia in the Premier League and Championship.*
> 
> The Daily Mail newspaper reports that the Sports Ground Safety Authority (SGSA) has commissioned an independent study into risks presented by standing at football stadia amid calls for the all-seater legislation to be reviewed.
> 
> ...


https://www.thestadiumbusiness.com/2020/01/28/sports-minister-keen-deliver-safe-standing-pledge/


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## RMB2007 (Apr 1, 2007)

> Seating areas at football grounds which incorporate barriers have a "positive impact on spectator safety", a government report has found.
> 
> The interim report from the Sports Grounds Safety Authority (SGSA) found such seating areas "mitigate the risk of crowd collapse".
> 
> ...


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51413557


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## Urmstoniain (Mar 23, 2015)

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...apply-to-install-rail-seating-at-old-trafford


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1404815975589896192


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## Tobermaury (Jul 20, 2013)

From a Leeds United supporter's group:



> The club have been identified by the Regulators as having a persistent standing problem. This can be solved by either reducing capacity or maintaining existing capacity and installing rail seating in areas where they are sure that fans consistently stand. The South and North stands were mentioned, but a final decision has not been made. A rail will be attached to the existing seating at lower chest height on the seat in front. *They anticipate installation after the second or third game of the season.* If this creates any problems, there will be the ability for season ticket holders to move seats, however the details of this have not been agreed.


Both ends stand in toto, so I'd expect the entire North Stand (which include the lower corners) and The South and South East lower seats to be converted, possibly the upper too


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