# DALLAS | Public Transport



## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

DART is one of the best public transportation systems i have ever been on. Chicago and New York's transportation are good, everyone knows that. Let someone else get some publicity.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

In the "Americas".............it sounds like they meant America.


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## -Corey- (Jul 8, 2005)

No, Americas, not just the US.


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

ssiguy2 said:


> In the "Americas".............it sounds like they meant America.


Americas. (North, South, Cantral. Canada down to Argentina)


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Here are some of the rail construction projects (light rail, streetcar, regional rail) in the DFW area. 

___________________________


*DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) Green Line:* constructing a 28-mile light rail line connecting Carrollton/NW Dallas to Pleasant Grove/SE Dallas through downtown Dallas. First segment opens in September 2009 with other stations opening in 2010. 

Website: http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/greenline.asp

Map:










Station Designs:











































































































































































___________________________


*DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) Orange Line:* constructing a 14-mile light rail line connecting downtown Dallas to DFW Airport through Irving/Las Colinas opening in 2011-2013; groundbreaking on April 13, 2009. 

Website: http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp

Map:










Station Designs:























































___________________________


*DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) Blue Line:* constructing a 4.5-mile light rail line extending the Blue Line to Downtown Rowlett in 2012; groundbreaking on April 9, 2009. Also constructing Lake Highlands Station, an infill station opening in 2010. 

Website: http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/blueline.asp

Map:




















___________________________


*DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) D2 Line:* constructing a second alignment/subway through downtown Dallas to relieve traffic with the opening of the DART Green Line and Orange Line.

Website: http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/downtowndallasmaps.asp

Map:










Each of the light rail alternatives:

1. Follow the same route from Victory Station to the West End and follow DART-owned right-of-way through Victory Park
2. Turn south on the east side of Houston Street to a station adjacent to the future Museum of Nature and Science
3. Pass under Woodall Rodgers Freeway, crossing the frontage roads at-grade and descending into a tunnel to become fully underground at Lamar Street
4. Continue south under Lamar Street and the existing transit mall
5. Use a new underground station that facilitates West End Station, West Bus Center, and future Rosa Parks Bus Plaza transfers
6. Converge at a common point south of the Deep Ellum Station on the Southeast Corridor (Green Line).

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*DART SLRV Vehicles: *

DART is adding a middle low-floor section to all 115 light rail vehicles. The modified cars are known as Super Light Rail Vehicles (SLRVs) because of the greater length and added passenger capacity. The SLRV will seat approximately 100 passengers compared with 75 on the current vehicles. Standing passengers on the vehicle can nearly double the capacity. It also has dedicated bike areas and the upgrades include automated station announcements. All of DART's station platforms have to be raised 12 inches for level boarding; downtown station platforms were raised in 2008 in anticipation of the Green Line and other stations will be raised in 2009.



















___________________________


*Downtown Dallas Streetcar Circulator:* planning a modern downtown Dallas streetcar circulator system in a partnership between DART and the City of Dallas. The streetcar planning element of the D2 Study began in February 2008. Its focus has been:

1. To consider and recommend a governance and organizational structure for a streetcar system;
2. To consider and recommend a funding strategy for the system; and,
3. To recommend an initial alignment and an operating plan for a streetcar starter system.


Website: http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/d2newslettersspring09.asp?zeon=d2streetcarplanning

Map:















































___________________________


*OCTA (Oak Cliff Transit Authority) Streetcar Line:* planning a modern and vintage PCC streetcar line on restored Oak Cliff streetcar tracks.


Website: http://www.oakcliffta.com/

Map:









___________________________


*Fort Worth Streetcar System:* planning several modern streetcar lines connecting activity areas within the city of Fort Worth.

Website: http://www.fortworthgov.org/planninganddevelopment/misc.aspx?id=57270


Map:









http://fortworthology.com/lightrail/


___________________________


*The T (Fort Worth Transit Authority) SW2NE Line:* planning a regional rail line connecting SW Fort Worth to Grapevine and DFW Airport opening in 2012-2013. 

Website: http://www.sw2nerail.com/

Map:











___________________________


*DCTA (Denton County Transit Authority) A-Train:* constructing a 21-mile regional rail line connecting Denton with DART's Green Line Trinity Mills Station in 2010.

Website: http://www.mya-train.com

Map:











Station designs:














































Vehicles:

DCTA will be leasing TRE's Budd RDCs through 2010-2012, bringing 12 Stadler GTWs on line after they are built and tested (2011-2012).


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Here are some recent Green Line construction photos:

MLK Station 




























Baylor Station




























Fair Park Station


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## salaverryo (Apr 3, 2008)

Will the Green Line be sharing the Pacific Street corridor in downtown Dallas with the Red & Blue Lines? Too many lines for a single set of tracks, it seems to me. The traffic lights will be forever on red for the crossing streets.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

salaverryo said:


> Will the Green Line be sharing the Pacific Street corridor in downtown Dallas with the Red & Blue Lines? Too many lines for a single set of tracks, it seems to me. The traffic lights will be forever on red for the crossing streets.



Yes, when the Green Line opens in 6 months it will share the downtown transit mall with the Red and Blue lines. They are updating the signals to give trains priority over other traffic, since there will be a train going through there every 5 minutes. With the Orange Line open congestion will be even worse. 

This traffic problem is the main reason for the DART D2 project, which is projected to open in 2014 after the Orange Line opening. The new subway line will keep things moving through downtown and will make the West End station a main transfer point between light rail lines.


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## Dallas star (Jul 6, 2006)

Great thread! I created one of these in the South East development thread! You should definitely link it too this thread. Also, it's great to have another Dallas member, you should visit the SE forum and post with the rest of us Dallasites


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

salaverryo said:


> Will the Green Line be sharing the Pacific Street corridor in downtown Dallas with the Red & Blue Lines? Too many lines for a single set of tracks, it seems to me. The traffic lights will be forever on red for the crossing streets.


I know! They are working on underground lines through downtown to the south east.


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

also, between the 3 of us who care about Dallas on here (4 as soon as Rantonamo finds this) Do you guys think DART needs to start looking at new streamline trains? Like what Houston did?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DART paid for their custom designed vehicle and the trains are perfect for the purpose they serve... commuter service up to 65mph on dedicated guideways (except through downtown, for now). The recently modified SLRV cars serve the Dallas region with a high capacity, easy access metro-style system. 

The rail systems of Dallas and Houston are quite different; while they may be more "streamlined," Houston's new vehicles will only have a top speed of 43mph since they run primarily in street traffic. DART will most likely use a modern "streamlined" vehicle for their slower modern streetcar service downtown. 

So while they aren't the most modern vehicle, they serve DART well, have held up well over 10+ years and I like their unique design.


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## hoosier (Apr 11, 2007)

Very impressive system!

It is very heartwarming to see a city so often associated with sprawl and highway dependency making such a great investment in rail transit.

Keep building Dallas!:banana:


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## mrmocha413 (Apr 18, 2009)

Love to see that Texas is finally rolling on the ball with mass transit, now if only more of its people will lessen their intake of Mexican and Southern food, and attempt to walk a few feet to a light rail stop instead of reaching for the keys and a two step walk to the car.


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## Benn (Jan 10, 2007)

Ganis said:


> also, between the 3 of us who care about Dallas on here (4 as soon as Rantonamo finds this) Do you guys think DART needs to start looking at new streamline trains? Like what Houston did?



I think the Modifications with the new center section is probably the most effective option, especially considering the current rolling stock is pretty recent, The latest generaltion of LRVs, like the Avanto trainsets in Houston look better, and may work slightly better in mixed traffic, but I really don't see the need throw down money on new rolling stock for a good 10-15 years. That money would be better spent on stations and commuter service, especially given the size of the Dallas metro area. 

And it is really nice to see someone putting in multiple unit commuter service. First Austin, now Dallas and soon to be Denver (their even going all out on EMUs last I heard) I am disappointed with metro transit (Minneapolis/St Paul) going with the monster Bi Level push/pull trains for the Nothstar Corridor.


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

mrmocha413 said:


> Love to see that Texas is finally rolling on the ball with mass transit, now if only more of its people will lessen their intake of Mexican and Southern food, and attempt to walk a few feet to a light rail stop instead of reaching for the keys and a two step walk to the car.


This has been going on in Dallas since 95. But rider ship on DART climes at a rate around 5 to 9% a year so soon more people should be ridding Dart then driving.


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## salaverryo (Apr 3, 2008)

dfwcre8tive said:


> DART paid for their custom designed vehicle and the trains are perfect for the purpose they serve... commuter service up to 65mph on dedicated guideways (except through downtown, for now). The recently modified SLRV cars serve the Dallas region with a high capacity, easy access metro-style system.
> 
> The rail systems of Dallas and Houston are quite different; while they may be more "streamlined," Houston's new vehicles will only have a top speed of 43mph since they run primarily in street traffic. DART will most likely use a modern "streamlined" vehicle for their slower modern streetcar service downtown.
> 
> So while they aren't the most modern vehicle, they serve DART well, have held up well over 10+ years and I like their unique design.


The rail "system" of Houston is -for the time being- a glorified streetcar running on a track not even 8 miles long on city streets. The Dallas SYSTEM is a network of commuter/suburban TRAINS which function as trams only when crossing the downtown area.


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

DART is the best Light Rail System in the world over the past 15 years. It was planned right and has the proper growth and is one of the heart lines for Dallas.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

dfwcre8tive said:


> Yes, when the Green Line opens in 6 months it will share the downtown transit mall with the Red and Blue lines. They are updating the signals to give trains priority over other traffic, since there will be a train going through there every 5 minutes. With the Orange Line open congestion will be even worse.
> 
> This traffic problem is the main reason for the DART D2 project, which is projected to open in 2013 soon after the Orange Line opening. The new subway line will keep things moving through downtown and will make the West End station a main transfer point between light rail lines.


What makes you think that D2 will be done by 2013? According to thespecs on DART.org, the alignment won't be selected until after the new lines start running. Subway is only one option, and there are actually several subway options and one or two above ground options.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it open in 2013, but according to DART's service plan, things aren't going to happen that way.


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## Jayayess1190 (Feb 6, 2005)

Dallas is my favorite city in Texas. I visited with my father a few years ago, and we also went to Fort Worth and Houston. We rode the lightrail and the TRE from Dallas to Ft.Worth and back. Great to see such improvements to the area transit while here in Philly Septa struggles to find funding.


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

Testing the new Green Line Rails. 100 Days till the Green line opens up.


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

sorry for the high res


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

Dallas looks like a proper city from this view


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

^^From what I've seen, Dallas (like most cities in the US) has pockets of city-ness, but the vast majority is freeways and stripmall-dom.

But as we can see, the trend is finally starting to reverse itself.


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## TexasBoi (Jan 7, 2004)

Slartibartfas said:


> I think it would have been great if more stations would have developments like this taking place next to the stations:


Every station has plans to building something like this around it. In fact, those parking lots that people are talking about won't stay there. All will be ripped up the closer you get to downtown. If Dallas ever sets up it's streetcar system around the city, these park and rides will be useless because the streetcar can feed into the light rail system just like the bus system does to Washington.


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## TexasBoi (Jan 7, 2004)

Ganis said:


> Dallas looks like a proper city from this view


When I first saw that picture a couple days ago, I said the exact same thing.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

My understanding is that its worked well in Portland.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

not long now!


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Source http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/greenlinesupersaturday.asp










Celebrate the Green Line

*September 12* Super Saturday
The public is invited to preview the new Green Line stations on September 12. DART and its partners will host food, fun and entertainment from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. at each of the four new stations. At MLK, Jr. Station, J.B. Jackson Jr. Boulevard and Trunk Avenue, DART will have a community-oriented event for the entire family. Fair Park Station, Parry and Exposition avenues, will offer four hours of Fair Park fun! Baylor University Medical Center Station, Hall and Junius streets, will feature a health and fitness fair with screenings, demonstrations and much more. Deep Ellum Station, at Good-Latimer Expressway and Gaston Avenue, will celebrate the colorful art, music and history of Deep Ellum.

Passengers riding DART Rail and the Trinity Railway Express (TRE) to Super Saturday can transfer easily to the Green Line:
Southbound Red and Blue Line passengers transfer to the Green Line at Pearl Station.
Northbound Red and Blue Line passengers transfer to the Green Line at Akard Station.
TRE passengers transfer to the Green Line at Victory Station.
Regular fares apply on the Red and Blue Lines and the TRE.

*September 14* Customer Appreciation Day 
Regular weekday and weekend service on the Green Line starts September 14, and we're kicking it off with coffee provided by McDonald's and donuts by Krispy Kreme from 5 a.m. to 9 a.m. at the four new stations and Victory Station. Volunteers at the stations will assist riders and provide information about the new fare schedule and routes changes.

*September 19* Victory Park Celebrates Full-Time Service
DART will celebrate full-time service at Victory Station from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. on September 19 with fun and food provided by the Dallas Stars, Dallas Mavericks, Katy Trail, Hard Rock Cafe and WFAA-TV.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

The Green Line opens with parties on Saturday and full service starting on Monday!

Deep Ellum Station:


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Deep Ellum Station:



















Baylor Station:





































Fair Park Station:




























MLK Jr. Station


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Nice shots!


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## hoosier (Apr 11, 2007)

So is it just the section between Downtown and the State Fairgrounds that is opening tomorrow, with the entire line opening next year?


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## salaverryo (Apr 3, 2008)

BoulderGrad said:


> ^^From what I've seen, Dallas (like most cities in the US) has pockets of city-ness, but the vast majority is freeways and stripmall-dom.
> 
> But as we can see, the trend is finally starting to reverse itself.


Wishful thinking but... not really. Suburban-ness is so entrenched & pervasive that density is just a concept alien to modern American cities.


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## Ganis (Jan 3, 2009)

The Green Line is OPEN!


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Here's the story:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/091409dnmetdartgreen.43d0b4e.html


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DART's new map:


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

How far out is the "orange line" That's supposed to go to DFW, right?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

BoulderGrad said:


> How far out is the "orange line" That's supposed to go to DFW, right?


The Orange Line has already started construction. It opens to Las Colinas in 2011 and DFW Airport in 2013.

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

dfwcre8tive said:


> The Orange Line has already started construction. It opens to Las Colinas in 2011 and DFW Airport in 2013.
> 
> http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp


Oh, very nice. Go Dallas.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

What is all the construction at 121 and 114 at the north end of DFW airport? Is this for the Orange Line or the commuter line from Fort Worth? Or just regular highway work?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

dwdwone said:


> What is all the construction at 121 and 114 at the north end of DFW airport? Is this for the Orange Line or the commuter line from Fort Worth? Or just regular highway work?


That's the DFW Connector, highway work which will be complete in 2014.

http://www.dfwconnector.com


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/bluelinelakehighlandsstation.asp


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

June 2010 Update

North Carrollton/Frankford Station










Trinity Mills Station




























Royal Lane Station



















Walnut Hill/Denton Station





































Lawnview Station




























Lake June Station





































Buckner Station


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

I'd read that the Orange Line out to DFW Airport has been delayed, yet construction seems to be continuing. What's up with that?


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Those are very attractive stations.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

dwdwone said:


> I'd read that the Orange Line out to DFW Airport has been delayed, yet construction seems to be continuing. What's up with that?


Due to utility relocation issues with TxDOT (the new SH114 and LRT are under construction in the same right-of-way) the line now has an 8-month opening delay of August 2012 instead of December 2011. But construction is not slowing down on the line to Las Colinas. 

The extension to DFW Airport will open sometime around 2013. For a while it was rumored that this would be delayed indefinitely due to funding problems, but DART has promised Irving that this extension will receive priority over all other LRT projects (downtown D2 line, etc).


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

D2 is a much needed, worthwhile project, but I don't know how they can possibly pay for it.

Am glad they are not indefinitely delaying the line to DFW. This has incredible ridership potential. Almost a captive audience. I've often wondered why the Trinity Express didn't run a spur up to the south entrance. It's not that far and would do wonders for TRE ridership as well.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

^ Well, now DART has changed its mind...

*Transit agency can't afford final segment of Orange Line to Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport
*11:56 PM CDT on Tuesday, June 22, 2010

By MICHAEL LINDENBERGER/The Dallas Morning News
[email protected]
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...ories/062310dnmetdartorangeline.cc08752e.html

Dallas Area Rapid Transit can't afford to build light-rail service to D/FW International Airport by 2013 as it has long said it would, the agency's chief financial officer said Tuesday.

The news comes as a sharp reversal, but CFO David Leininger said the only way the project can be built in the near future will be if new revenues can be found, either through a new tax or, more likely but still uncertain, a federal grant that would cover the approximately $275 million cost of the final leg of the Orange Line.

...


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

I'm not surprised. They are running out of money. Not, I think, because of poor ridership but because the tax base is eroding due to a poor economy.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

An update on the OCTA Streetcar (won $23 million in TIGER grants back in February)



> *Downtown-Oak Cliff streetcar line in planning stage*
> 07:52 AM CDT on Thursday, July 8, 2010
> By ROY APPLETON / The Dallas Morning News
> [email protected]
> ...


MATA Streetcar & FWTA Streetcar (won $4.9 million and $25 million today) 



> *McKinney Avenue Transit Authority, Fort Worth Receive Millions in Urban Circulator Grants
> *By Robert Wilonsky, Thu., Jul. 8 2010 @ 9:42AM
> Categories: News
> http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/07/mckinney_avenue_transit_author.php
> ...


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Is there any way, I wonder, to integrate the streetcar system with the old Fort Worth subway? It could make for some interesting possibilities.


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## loaked (Jul 10, 2010)

whats with the park and ride, is it suppose to be a light rail commuter train?


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Which park and ride?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DART Green Line aerial photo updates:

Photo updates from July 2010 (larger versions here ):

*Frankford/North Carrollton*










*Trinity Mills*




























*Downtown Carrollton*





































*Farmers Branch*



















*Royal Lane*



















*Walnut Hill/Denton*




























*Bachman*



















*Northwest Rail Operating Facility*



















*Burbank*



















*Inwood/Love Field*



















*Southwest Medical District/Parkland*




























*Market Center*



















*Hatcher*



















*Lawnview*




























*Lake June*



















*Buckner*


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DCTA A-Train construction:

A few photos from the WEBSITE :


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DART Blue Line extension to Downtown Rowlett

Photo updates from July 2010 (larger versions here ):

*Downtown Rowlett*




























*Downtown Garland*


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Here are a few pics of the construction in Irving. As you can tell by that last image, nothing pleases a metrophile more than being able to trainspot and hit balls at the same time.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

PS Sorry about the image sizes. I have no idea how to size them down or edit them.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

dwdwone said:


> I'd read that the Orange Line out to DFW Airport has been delayed, yet construction seems to be continuing. What's up with that?


Looks like it's back on now, with a slight delay...

*DART uses new financial assumptions to revive D/FW airport rail plan
*07:16 AM CDT on Wednesday, August 11, 2010
By MICHAEL A. LINDENBERGER / The Dallas Morning News 
[email protected]
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...DN-dart_11met.ART.State.Edition1.3585d08.html

Just six weeks after telling board members that it couldn't be done, DART executives on Tuesday presented their bosses with a 20-year financial plan that keeps the Orange Line rail service on track to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.

They also presented a $1.25 billion budget for 2011 that cuts 87 jobs next year but will delay, for a year at least, layoffs.

The 20-year plan would allow room for a second major rail project, an extension of the Blue Line to southern Oak Cliff by the end of this decade. That's a possibility that promised to draw a fight, or at least a debate, from some board members who think the agency should save its money to build a long-promised second downtown Dallas rail line that is now on hold.

The draft budget for 2011 calls for trimming 87 full-time jobs at DART, few enough to be handled by attrition. It also anticipates some reduced bus and rail services, including having light-rail trains run through downtown every 15 minutes instead of every 10.

...

In addition to the basic assumptions about sales-tax revenue growth, the new 20-year plan assumes a host of other factors that were not part of the plan Leininger presented June 22. Among them:

• The agency will begin tolling high occupancy vehicle lanes within a few years.

• It will begin charging at least some drivers to park at a number of station lots.

• DART will find $100 million or so in unexpected funds, either from federal grants or other sources, to help pay for the extension to Oak Cliff.

• Passenger revenue will rise again, despite having fallen significantly since 2008.

*Downtown line
*
If the bets are well-placed, one big payoff could be the Oak Cliff extension of the Blue Line. But several DART board members said they were eager to hear from Dallas officials about the DART staff's proposal to give that project a higher priority than the second downtown line. The downtown line has been seen as a way to accommodate the extra trains anticipated once the full Green Line service, between Carrollton and Pleasant Grove, opens later this year and Orange Line trains begin arriving from Irving in 2012.

Mark Enoch of Rowlett said DART might be better off saving the money it would spend on the Oak Cliff extension until it finds the rest of the money needed for the second downtown line.

"I am concerned that we are limiting our ability to grow as a system," Enoch said. "We can't clog downtown Dallas."

But other board members, including Pamela Dunlop Gates of Dallas and Irving's John Carter Danish, said the southern extension of the Blue Line is just as important to the development of southern Dallas as the completion of the Orange Line is to Irving.

"If we are stretching ourselves to pay for the Orange Line on the basis of its economic development potential to Irving, then I think we should also stretch ourselves to make this happen for south Dallas," Gates said.

...


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

Orlando is getting both commuter rail and HSR. I believe that makes Indy or Columbus the largest without rail transport.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

Dale said:


> Orlando is getting both commuter rail and HSR. I believe that makes Indy or Columbus the largest without rail transport.


Columbus and Indy are both in the process of planning for LRT (Though Colmbus's plan looks more streetcar-ey) so that would make the largest metro area in the US not doing anything on the rail front San Antonio.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

FDW said:


> Columbus and Indy are both in the process of planning for LRT (Though Colmbus's plan looks more streetcar-ey) so that would make the largest metro area in the US not doing anything on the rail front San Antonio.


San Antonio is planning a starter street car line. Lots of cities like to claim the "largest city without rail". Tampa, Detroit, Orlando, Indy, etc. the list goes on. With that said most of these cities are planning something, it just varies as to how far along their plans are. Orlando will get CRT and HSR in the next few years, if the referendum passes in Tampa we will get LRT (but if it does not pass...), Detroit is planning LRT and has the people mover (no matter what they like to claim, it is a real DT circulator system), basically America is waking up to using and building transit in cities that should have started planning decades ago.:cheers:

Steve


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

FDW said:


> Columbus and Indy are both in the process of planning for LRT (Though Colmbus's plan looks more streetcar-ey) so that would make the largest metro area in the US not doing anything on the rail front San Antonio.


They probably just need to continue to improve their bus systems more than anything else. I like trains, but it's laughable that billions are being spent to build trains that few will use while the Orlando bus system has less than 200 buses to cover a sprawling metro of over two-million.

I live 8 miles from the CBD and I could almost walk to it in the amount of time it would take to get there by bus when you account for transfer time.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)




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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Is San Antonio definitely going to build the streetcar, or is it just something they're throwing around?


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## manrush (May 8, 2008)

I also read that DART is planning some kind of "rapid rail" line that connects the orange and blue lines.

Is that just a light-rail line with an interval of less than 15 minutes?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

manrush said:


> I also read that DART is planning some kind of "rapid rail" line that connects the orange and blue lines.
> 
> Is that just a light-rail line with an interval of less than 15 minutes?


There's the Cotton Belt commuter rail line, but that will connect the Red & Green Line to DFW Airport (and onto Fort Worth). There aren't any plans to connect the Orange & Blue Lines (they will already connect downtown).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Belt_Rail_Line


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Congratulations Dallas for going full steam ahead with DART!


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

dwdwone said:


> Is San Antonio definitely going to build the streetcar, or is it just something they're throwing around?


http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/VIA_to_seek_federal_grant_for_streetcars.html

_VIA Metropolitan Transit's trustees on Tuesday approved the routes for a streetcar system and directed agency staff to seek a $25 million grant to help fund an initial segment.

VIA plans to submit an application to the Federal Transit Administration by Feb. 8 seeking the funding for a 2.2-mile, north-south route that largely would run along Broadway and South Alamo Street, from Josephine Street to South St. Mary's Street. Officials currently expect that segment to cost roughly $90 million.

The board also approved an east-west route that ultimately could connect the AT&T Center to Our Lady of the Lake University, traversing downtown along East Nueva.

..._


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

dfwcre8tive said:


> Bachman Station junction


Does anybody else sense inherent danger devised into the built-in diamond crossing above, coz I do although I wouldn't be able to explain to anybody why/how come (I do)?


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

^^ 
the lack of flyover
the distanced isolation of the crossover, so as to be thwarting some pest of a What?!?
the inherent share of the nearby downhill race from the lefthand side

Edit 24 Oct:
I meant to sum up above that its overall staging's too conspicuous to go unnoticed by me.

Come to think of it: its design strikes me as being drummed up by some machine, not by a human being!


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

The new DART rail map and schedules have been released. The remainder of the Green Line, Lake Highlands Station (infill Blue Line) and limited Orange Line service open December 6!










http://dart.org/about/servicechange/servicechange.asp


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)




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## DCOBRA-K (Jun 2, 2008)

The system of LRT, i like the way it is designed and conectivity you have in the metropolitan area.

Greetings.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

In Carrollton, there is a railway that runs underneath the elevated guideway. I haven't seen any trains running along the route and originally assumed it was to be abandoned. However, there are working signals along the route. Is this ROW truly abandoned, or are they planning to use it for something?


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

dwdwone said:


> In Carrollton, there is a railway that runs underneath the elevated guideway. I haven't seen any trains running along the route and originally assumed it was to be abandoned. However, there are working signals along the route. Is this ROW truly abandoned, or are they planning to use it for something?


There's a Commuter Rail planned to operate between Carrolton and Denton to the North, the Working signals were probably put in place in anticipation of the new line, which should open sometime next year.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

dwdwone said:


> In Carrollton, there is a railway that runs underneath the elevated guideway. I haven't seen any trains running along the route and originally assumed it was to be abandoned. However, there are working signals along the route. Is this ROW truly abandoned, or are they planning to use it for something?


They are planning to use that ROW to operate the A-Train commuter rail which is supposed to run between Denton and Carrollton where it will connect with the DART rail.

A- Train


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

The A-Train will use the freight track as far south as Downtown Carrollton Station; that will be the future terminus and serve as a connection to other rail lines (the Cotton Belt Line to DFW Airport). The freight track spurs south of Downtown Carrollton are still used by various industries for local deliveries (International Paper being the largest), so DART had to build above. Similar long stretches of flyover are located between Northwest Highway and Royal Lane. The Green Line corridor is heavily industrialized between Northwest Highway to LBJ Freeway. If you look at Google Maps you can see many abandoned freight spurs in the area.


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

Having seen the clip with the Green Line ride (post #130) it seemes to me that the line goes from nowhere to nowhere. There are only few houses seen from the train, not really dense populated area along the whole route at all. Let's hope, they will develope this zone soon, so that there will come ppl to use this new line.


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## rantanamo (Sep 12, 2002)

Dan78 said:


> There's a grain of truth to what you're saying. American transit systems generally don't look "spectacular" like Moscow's immaculate neo-classical stations or Naples' "modern art"-looking stations. New York and Boston, in particular, have some pretty awful-looking subway stations. Washington DC, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Los Angleles (all of which have much newer systems) have more attractive facilities.
> 
> Getting funding to build and maintain these systems in the U.S. is tough as it is; attempts at beautification would be regarded as a waste of taxpayer money. Americans are pretty conservative when it comes to design trends in general (for fun, compare American banknotes with Euros and see what I mean), so anything we build is likely to lack the "knock your socks off" edgy appeal of some newer European or Asian projects. We're more concerned with functionality, and the public realm has become far less important to American life post 1950, for a variety of reasons, hence the banal-looking buildings and infrastructure we typically construct today.
> 
> ...


when you say this about light rail, I think its simply incorrect. The type of Light Rail that Dallas and Los Angeles use are distinctive from traditional light rail, which are actually streetcars. Even the manufacturers use distinguish these vehicles from traditional light rail. The trains are linkable and are actually faster than heavy rail trains.

As for modern system, I'm guessing you're referring to the stations. I dare you to look at Mockingbird and Cityplace and say this isn't a modern system. Dallas simply doesn't have the density that it has to have fancy subway stations all over the line, but it does have them. The assessment is correct though on spending. Funny, modern sunbelt cities would say that those cities mentioned don't have modern, aesthetically pleasing freeway systems with huge capacities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockingbird_Station
http://www.dart.org/riding/stations/cityplacestation.asp


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## Dan78 (Nov 17, 2009)

rantanamo said:


> when you say this about light rail, I think its simply incorrect. The type of Light Rail that Dallas and Los Angeles use are distinctive from traditional light rail, which are actually streetcars. Even the manufacturers use distinguish these vehicles from traditional light rail. The trains are linkable and are actually faster than heavy rail trains.


I'm well aware of the difference between a streetcar and light rail as the term is generally understood in North America. Light Rail is faster than heavy rail? I haven't seen any examples of this. Light-rail vehicles can theoretically travel nearly as fast as heavy-rail vehicles but rarely do so if operating in mixed traffic (as they often do), and due to the fact that station distances tend to be shorter. Train lengths are shorter and rolling stock sizes are smaller with light rail, limiting capacity (though frequency could help make up for this).



rantanamo said:


> As for modern system, I'm guessing you're referring to the stations. I dare you to look at Mockingbird and Cityplace and say this isn't a modern system. Dallas simply doesn't have the density that it has to have fancy subway stations all over the line, but it does have them.


Yes, those look nice. Thanks for the photos. I wasn't putting Dallas or DART down.



rantanamo said:


> The assessment is correct though on spending. Funny, modern sunbelt cities would say that those cities mentioned don't have modern, aesthetically pleasing freeway systems with huge capacities.


I've yet to see an aesthetically pleasing highway system in the U.S. The newer ones in the sunbelt areas may be nicer-looking than others because they are somewhat newer. And the cities I mentioned do have high-capacity freeway systems.

Here's a recent article on the Transport Politic regarding DART:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/...light-rail-network-makes-it-americas-longest/


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## TheKorean (Apr 11, 2010)

As a visitor can I travel around dallas by DART?


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## ajmstilt (Sep 10, 2006)

TheKorean said:


> As a visitor can I travel around dallas by DART?


Depends on where you are staying, and where you want to go. There are lots of places to see and visit by using DART (and I assume you mean rail), but there are many places that aren't served by rail.


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## TheKorean (Apr 11, 2010)

No, bus is alright too. If I confine myself to rail I cant get to a lot of places.

I will be arriving at Union Station in Dallas, and staying near where the American Airline Center is.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

TheKorean said:


> No, bus is alright too. If I confine myself to rail I cant get to a lot of places.
> 
> I will be arriving at Union Station in Dallas, and staying near where the American Airline Center is.


This section of DART's website should help:

http://www.dart.org/travelagent/darttravelagent.asp


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)




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## geogregor (Dec 11, 2006)

Here is video about DART from official tourist site of Dallas 

http://www.youplusdallas.com/stories/dallas-by-dart


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/su...t-rail-frozen-out-of-service.ece?ssimg=115192



> Photo: Jim Mahoney/Staff Photographer
> A Dallas Area Rapid Transit police car blocked a track crossing Tuesday as a light-rail train sat stopped along Scyene Road. For the first time, DART was forced to close the entire light-rail system as a result of severe weather.
> 
> 
> ...


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## philvia (Jun 22, 2006)

only in texas does a dusting of winter weather shut down the _entire_ light-rail network:nuts:


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Hehe i'm not sure many noticed , since the system barely used....:lol:


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Nexis said:


> Hehe i'm not sure many noticed , since the system barely used....:lol:


You do realize that DART has more riders than the Hudson-Bergen light rail and the Newark light rail right?

List of United States light rail systems by ridership


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

diablo234 said:


> You do realize that DART has more riders than the Hudson-Bergen light rail and the Newark light rail right?
> 
> List of United States light rail systems by ridership


So , the HBLR has been upgraded , and the NLR is a small system....it should never be expected to get more then 30,000.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

diablo234 said:


> You do realize that DART has more riders than the Hudson-Bergen light rail and the Newark light rail right?
> 
> List of United States light rail systems by ridership


And those numbers don't even account for the opening of the rest of the Green Line, so they could be much higher.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

diablo234 said:


> You do realize that DART has more riders than the Hudson-Bergen light rail and the Newark light rail right?
> 
> List of United States light rail systems by ridership


looking at the table you linked to...

DART - 57,400 daily boardings for (72 + 3.6 = 75.6 miles) = 759 daily boardings per mile
HBLR - 43,033 daily boardings for 27.2 miles = 1582 daily boardings per mile
NLR - 21,599 daily boardings for 9.9 mi = 2182 daily boardings

So north Jersey has more than double the number of passengers per mile than north Texas (and more daily boardings total).

South Jersey is a whole different story
River Line - 9,771 daily boardings for 34 miles = 287 daily boardings per mile

But: South Texas > North Jersey
Houston Metro = 35,000 daily boardings for 7.5 miles = 4667 daily boardings per mile


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Woonsocket54 said:


> looking at the table you linked to...
> 
> DART - 57,400 daily boardings for (72 + 3.6 = 75.6 miles) = 759 daily boardings per mile
> HBLR - 43,033 daily boardings for 27.2 miles = 1582 daily boardings per mile
> ...


Well the Riverline is more of a light rail - commuter Rail hybrid then a full light rail...its also growing by a decent amount of riders....


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

Those figures may be wrong because a massive new extension(second phase of the Green Line) added 24 more miles in Q4 of 2010. The Wikipedia list cites Q3 of 2010 as the latest ridership numbers released, and at that point the DART system was only 48 miles.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

zaphod said:


> Those figures may be wrong because a massive new extension(second phase of the Green Line) added 24 more miles in Q4 of 2010. The Wikipedia list cites Q3 of 2010 as the latest ridership numbers released, and at that point the DART system was only 48 miles.


I doubt the green line extension would add anymore ridership or alot....


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Nexis said:


> Well the Riverline is more of a light rail - commuter Rail hybrid then a full light rail...its also growing by a decent amount of riders....


That is basically the same function that DART provides, therefore you have to think of it like the BART system. It is basically designed to connect Downtown Dallas with the closer in suburbs. Also just so you know there is alot of TOD development sprouting around the stations such as Victory Park, Mockingbird Station, Park Lane, etc.



Nexis said:


> I doubt the green line extension would add anymore ridership or alot....


It actually would add more ridership considering that it serves several points of interest such as Victory Park, Love Field, Fair Park and several large suburbs that are currently underserved by rail.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Love Field station is a joke, and a bad one at that. Petty politics wins out over common sense.

As far as ice storms go, take it from a transplanted New Yorker. Rarely did New York experience the kinds of ice storms we get in Texas. I went through just a few in the 22 years I lived there. Short of a blizzard, Texas ice storms are much worse and much more debilitating. And because of their infrequency, the infrastructure is not well prepared for dealing with them when they do happen.

So much for global warming.

Had Dallas built a subway - DART has all of one subway station - I suspect any interruptions in service would have been minimal. As they say in Texas, some would prefer to trip over a dollar to pick up a dime.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

dwdwone said:


> So much for global warming.


Does an ice storm in Texas disprove the theory of gradual climate change?

In other news, this shitty transit system still can't get its shit together

Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/comm...-fresh-challenge-snarling-rail-lines-anew.ece



> *Snow deals DART a fresh challenge, snarling rail lines anew*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Does an ice storm in Texas disprove the theory of gradual climate change?
> 
> In other news, this shitty transit system still can't get its shit together


You do realize there have been brownouts in the area correct due to the power demand correct? I am sure other transit systems in New York would be suffering as well if they were in the exact situation. :nuts:

Even though that area has some experience with Ice Storms they had very little experience in dealing with the extreme temperatures they got this year. I am talking about temperatures as low as 14 F which can weaken the rails among other things. Most of the infastructure in the area is not designed for these types of temperatures.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

dwdwone said:


> As far as ice storms go, take it from a transplanted New Yorker. Rarely did New York experience the kinds of ice storms we get in Texas.


I'd really doubt that there claim; virtually all my wintertime trips through NY's Adirondack's since the '80s were accompanied by freezing rain...




dwdwone said:


> And because of their infrequency


Texas' own share, eh? 





dwdwone said:


> So much for global warming.


Actually, you appear to have nailed what I believe to be the chief reason for the phenomenon of freezing rain.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

So are there any new Jan stats for ridership on the Green Line or whole system?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Kinkisharyo's ameriTRAM (http://www.ameritram.com/) was on demonstration in Dallas today. DART and the City of Dallas are considering this vehicle for various streetcar lines.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2011/03/slow_train_coming_first_look_a.phpp


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Also, MATA's streetcar extension is underway with a new line down Olive Street to connect to DART's St. Paul Station. The Cityplace Station terminal is also being reconstructed.

Photos here: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=23135&id=137856036263586


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## IanCleverly (Nov 24, 2010)




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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Since the streetcars seem to be able to run on light rail tracks, is it only the capacity that differentiates them?


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

dwdwone said:


> Since the streetcars seem to be able to run on light rail tracks, is it only the capacity that differentiates them?


Yeah, and the fact that LRV's wouldn't be able to run on streetcar tracks. (And the fact that the Light Rail and streetcar tracks currently lack a direct connection)


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Orange/Blue Line Construction Update:


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

I honestly have to give it to Dallas. A city that contains the largest Light Rail system(and still expanding it) AND has the High Five Interchange with an extensive freeway system to go with it? Transportation wise Dallas seems to have everything.

Question though, how are they running 4 light rail lines through one single stretch of track in downtown? Headways must not be all that great. I think Dallas needs a second downtown connector.(Blue and Red Lines would not move, but Green and orange lines would have a new subway following a North-South direction crossing the current downtown tracks)


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

State of the Union said:


> I honestly have to give it to Dallas. A city that contains the largest Light Rail system(and still expanding it) AND has the High Five Interchange with an extensive freeway system to go with it? Transportation wise Dallas seems to have everything.
> 
> Question though, how are they running 4 light rail lines through one single stretch of track in downtown? Headways must not be all that great. I think Dallas needs a second downtown connector.(Blue and Red Lines would not move, but Green and orange lines would have a new subway following a North-South direction crossing the current downtown tracks)


They system is barely used to begin with why would they need more capacity?


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

Nexis said:


> They system is barely used to begin with why would they need more capacity?


I don't live in Dallas so how am I suppose to know if it gets barely used or not? Though if wikipedia is to be believed, the entire system doesnt even get 60,000. The Los Angeles Blue Line alone gets 80,000, and the Houston''s Metro Rail gets nearly 40,000. However, looking at the videos and overhead maps, Dallas seems very spread out and in the videos the stations appear to built halfway into almost rural areas, so it's not surprising. However it looks like Dallas trying to take the approach of building the rail first, and letting the development come after.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

State of the Union said:


> I don't live in Dallas so how am I suppose to know if it gets barely used or not? Though if wikipedia is to be believed, the entire system doesnt even get 60,000. The Los Angeles Blue Line alone gets 80,000, and the Houston''s Metro Rail gets nearly 40,000. However, looking at the videos and overhead maps, Dallas seems very spread out and in the videos the stations appear to built halfway into almost rural areas, so it's not surprising. However it looks like Dallas trying to take the approach of building the rail first, and letting the development come after.


Its been awhile since the first line has opened and only a few developments have popped up. Your supposed to build Rail through Dense areas , DART seems to have a tough time doing that..... It will be really embrassing when Houston's Metro overtakes DART in ridership.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

State of the Union said:


> I don't live in Dallas so how am I suppose to know if it gets barely used or not? Though if wikipedia is to be believed, the entire system doesnt even get 60,000. The Los Angeles Blue Line alone gets 80,000, and the Houston''s Metro Rail gets nearly 40,000. However, looking at the videos and overhead maps, Dallas seems very spread out and in the videos the stations appear to built halfway into almost rural areas, so it's not surprising. However it looks like Dallas trying to take the approach of building the rail first, and letting the development come after.


One thing to remember, the current Ridership data for DART on wikipedia don't reflect the opening of the rest of the Green Line. This out of date ridership data also leads to DART's seemingly horrible Ridership per mile number, as they have the post-green line track mileage but not the post-green line ridership data, which falsely skews the results downwards. I've actually taken a couple of trips on the Northern segment of the Green Line, and from my impressions (riding during off-peak and peak periods) I estimate that DART's actual ridership post-green line is really about 90,000-95,000 boardings daily (which is close to San Diego numbers). And DART's current headways are 20 minutes off-peak, 15 minutes peak.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

Dallas' low rail ridership is hardly surprising given its low density, excellent highway and arterial system, and continued expansion of tollways along the outer edges of development. That's what happens when rail transit is viewed more as a trophy than as a functional necessity. 

Back in the 80's, a bank offered MARTA a commercial loan at a favorable interest rate to complete the entire referendum rail system ASAP. It's a good thing that MARTA declined, because we wouldn't have been able to fund its operations, especially since the original system included several short branches that would've made it difficult to provide service headways that were adequate on the branches without being excessive on the common sections. And the bank that offered the loan should've known that. Boosterism is no substitute for good planning. hno: 

That said, if/when peak oil hits, Dallas will be in a very enviable position.


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

FDW said:


> One thing to remember, the current Ridership data for DART on wikipedia don't reflect the opening of the rest of the Green Line. This out of date ridership data also leads to DART's seemingly horrible Ridership per mile number, as they have the post-green line track mileage but not the post-green line ridership data, which falsely skews the results downwards. I've actually taken a couple of trips on the Northern segment of the Green Line, and from my impressions (riding during off-peak and peak periods) I estimate that DART's actual ridership post-green line is really about 90,000-95,000 boardings daily (which is close to San Diego numbers). And DART's current headways are 20 minutes off-peak, 15 minutes peak.


Fair Enough, though the average rapid bus has better headways than that....

Are there any official ridership numbers ANYWHERE?

EDIT: Also I'm wondering why the TRE wasn't routed through Arlington? It makes little sense especially since Irving is getting the new Orange line next year anyway?


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

^^15-20 minute headways are pretty awful. The Seattle streetcar runs more often than that. Is that just on the outskirts, or is that for trains running through downtown?


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

State of the Union said:


> EDIT: Also I'm wondering why the TRE wasn't routed through Arlington? It makes little sense especially since Irving is getting the new Orange line next year anyway?


Arlington did not want to pay any taxes to fund mass transit. :doh:

Yet ironically they had no problems funding the new Dallas Cowboys stadium. :|

Anyways from what I can see the ridership estimates seem a bit off so I have to agree with FDW there.


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

BoulderGrad said:


> ^^15-20 minute headways are pretty awful. The Seattle streetcar runs more often than that. Is that just on the outskirts, or is that for trains running through downtown?


I would imagine that the downtown core stations would have 5 and 3 minute headways, since they are running 3-4 lines on the same tracks. Stations that only have 2 lines running through would have 10 minute headways, but It's the stations that belong to individual lines that have the $hitty headways. Looking at the Map, the Red Line(Northern Half) during peak when the orange lines trains are running through would probably be the best it gets for a single line.


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

State of the Union said:


> I would imagine that the downtown core stations would have 5 and 3 minute headways, since they are running 3-4 lines on the same tracks. Stations that only have 2 lines running through would have 10 minute headways, but It's the stations that belong to individual lines that have the $hitty headways. Looking at the Map, the Red Line(Northern Half) during peak when the orange lines trains are running through would probably be the best it gets for a single line.


Looking at the map now, all 4 lines run at grade on one street through downtown. Impossible to get any sort of reasonable frequency out at the edges. Once expansion to the burbs is done, the city could do well to unsarl some of the traffic jam downtown. Either by splitting up which lines run on which street, or even better, splitting them up into tunnels. Portland runs 4 lines through downtown as well, but headways are kept reasonable because they only allow 2 lines to use a set of tracks. 

Headways under 10 minutes are the happy convenience point where trains are frequent enough that a rider doesn't need to abide by a schedule to ride the train. You just show up at the station and wait for the next one.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

There are a couple of informative articles at The Transport Politic:

New Rail Corridor for Dallas Would Double Downtown Transit Capacity

Its Big System Plans Now Stretched Too Thin, Dallas Considers Ways to Cut Back


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

I can't help but think that instead of light rail, Dallas should be running these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kekQ1AvmLJo&feature=related

I think Dallas should try 30 minute EMU commuter rail service. Denver has the same issue as Dallas-trying to build a rail system in a city that's just not dense. Look at Denver's Fastrack Map: http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/media/maps/index.html

Notice that mostly the denser southern areas get Light Rail. The more spread out North and East get EMU Commuter Rail. Dallas' Light Rail acts halfway between light and commuter-Longer headways and very spaced out stations.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

State of the Union said:


> I can't help but think that instead of light rail, Dallas should be running these:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kekQ1AvmLJo&feature=related
> 
> ...


What for? What they have seems to work pretty well and you wouldn't want frequencies at 30mins. In fact they should probably be increasing frequencies to encourage more people to light rail.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

BoulderGrad said:


> Looking at the map now, all 4 lines run at grade on one street through downtown. Impossible to get any sort of reasonable frequency out at the edges. Once expansion to the burbs is done, the city could do well to unsarl some of the traffic jam downtown. Either by splitting up which lines run on which street, or even better, splitting them up into tunnels. Portland runs 4 lines through downtown as well, but headways are kept reasonable because they only allow 2 lines to use a set of tracks.
> 
> Headways under 10 minutes are the happy convenience point where trains are frequent enough that a rider doesn't need to abide by a schedule to ride the train. You just show up at the station and wait for the next one.


That's the plan. The downtown transit mall is at capacity now with the Orange & Green Lines operational. Prior to Green Line start DART upgraded the transit mall to give the line signal prioritization. But any service problem through the transit mall downtown still affects the entire system.

There was an extensive study recently completed which outlined the second preferred alignment -- a mix of subway and at-grade rails. Any additional expansion will require the D2 line to be built. This has been delayed due to funding but will be required in the future. Until then, DART has been adding capacity with longer trains and extended platforms. 

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/downtowndallas.asp










DART's board of city/suburb membership makes it difficult when planning new projects. The city desperately NEEDS the D2 line, but suburban cities want expansion and new lines to their areas. The existing transit mall downtown was planned as a subway (with higher capacity) but was downgraded to a transit mall when funding for expansion to the suburbs became a concern.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

State of the Union said:


> Fair Enough, though the average rapid bus has better headways than that....
> 
> Are there any official ridership numbers ANYWHERE?
> 
> EDIT: Also I'm wondering why the TRE wasn't routed through Arlington? It makes little sense especially since Irving is getting the new Orange line next year anyway?


There will be when the APTA publishes the Q1 2011 ridership numbers (which should be in the next month).

As for your second question, "Arlington doesn't want public transit" should answer it nicely.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Arlington, TX is the largest city in the US without any kind of mass transit.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

Oak Cliff Streetcar update:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2011/05/assessing_the_union_station_to.php










Here are the schematics with detailed engineering:

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion...rcentDesign.pdf


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## IanCleverly (Nov 24, 2010)

Dallas Area Rapid Transit Website said:


> Representatives from Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) and the North East Texas Regional Mobility Authority will work together to explore rail connections between North and East Texas. DART President/Executive Director Gary Thomas and Jeff Austin, Chairman of the North East Texas Regional Mobility Authority signed an interlocal cooperation agreement marking the commitment.
> 
> The agreement recognizes the importance of coordinated transportation planning and advocacy as the two agencies work to expand rail in the area. Multi-jurisdictional cooperation is often cited by federal officials as a key to securing project funds. The agreement encourages the two agencies to identify "potential issues of mutual interest in the development of plans" for future rail service between the North Central, North East and East regions of Texas.
> 
> Information about the rail plans for the North East Texas Regional Mobility Authority are available at NETRMA


Source


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

I recently read that DART will be serving non-member cities through a newly authorized instrument authorized by the legislature which is akin to a seperate corporation. This will help DART and the non-member cities to get around a law which limits how much they can charge in sales tax, thereby keeping them from joining DAR via the required sales tax contribution.

Did I get that right DFW?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

*Right on time 
It’s tricky to rock a rail line, but celebration shows public that A-train service ready for Monday debut*
12:53 AM CDT on Sunday, June 19, 2011
By Bj Lewis / Staff Writer
http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/drc/localnews/stories/DRC_atrain_0619.3d464b4cf.html

The A-train has arrived.

Greeting the Denton County Transportation Authority’s long-awaited passenger rail line Saturday were public officials and hundreds of area residents — young and old — eager for their first taste of the new connection to Carrollton and beyond.

The Rock n’ Rail celebration featured train rides, musical performances and vendors at each of the five DCTA depots. Milling about the Downtown Denton Transit Center were Mayor Mark Burroughs, U.S. Rep. Michael Burgess, R-Lewisville, and state Rep. Myra Crownover, R-Denton, among other area officials.

“There is no downside,” Denton resident Kelly Pound said as she walked to the downtown station.

...









_____

*Interurban train service not a unique concept for area
*12:39 AM CDT on Sunday, June 19, 2011
By Les Cockrell / Region Editor
http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/drc/localnews/stories/DRC_interurban_0619.3d45eb88c.html
EDITOR’S NOTE: The historical information in this story was supplied through the Denton County Historical Museum and in a piece written by longtime resident and historian Mike Cochran.

Some of those who climb aboard the A-train for one of its long-awaited inaugural runs will no doubt believe they are local trendsetters, riding the crest of a wave of change brought about by growing traffic congestion, rising fuel costs and worsening air quality.

While the A-train will provide an alternative way for residents to get to work or attend an event, the idea of a commuter rail line is nothing new.

The plan for today’s A-train service won voter approval in 2003, but historians and even some longtime residents can testify that the idea for this type of service between Denton and the Dallas area dates back well beyond that date.

...

_____

Star-Telegram news story with photos
http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/06/11/3145450/a-train-commuter-line-is-set-for.html





































All photos credits to STAR-TELEGRAM/RODGER MALLISON


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

dwdwone said:


> I recently read that DART will be serving non-member cities through a newly authorized instrument authorized by the legislature which is akin to a seperate corporation. This will help DART and the non-member cities to get around a law which limits how much they can charge in sales tax, thereby keeping them from joining DAR via the required sales tax contribution.
> 
> Did I get that right DFW?


I think that's right, but I'm not sure on the funding mechanism details they are thinking of using.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

The new Stadler vehicles for DCTA are on their way!



















images from: http://translate.google.com/transla...gtw-26-fnm-atr-110-105-asm-star-be-48-113.htm


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## rheintram (Mar 5, 2008)

Will they be used in double traction? Close to here we have a commuter line in a not too densely populated area and they use the GTW 2/6 EMUs in double traction (3 trains per hour per direction). What's the plan in Denton County?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DCTA has purchased 11 GTW 2-6 DMUs. The platforms are long enough for 3 vehicles, but they plan on running sets of two coupled vehicles each.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

> *DART looks to link commuters, transit through social media, smartphones*
> http://www.dallasnews.com/news/transportation/20111106-dart-looks-to-link-commuters-transit-through-social-media-smartphones.ece
> By MICHAEL A. LINDENBERGER
> Published: Nov 6, 2011 11:16 PM
> ...


..


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Something I'm curious about. How difficult/easy is it to stick one of these Stadler diesel units on a track, add a few stations, and say ok, we've got a test rail line? I imagine the track and system has to conform to certain FRA regulations. I know Austin went through hell on this one. Ottawa, however, had their line up and running in months, while Denton took, what, about 18 months.


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

^^One problem is that the vehicles are narrower than most rail vehicles in the United States. The following photo shows the Sprinter near Oceanside, CA. The stations feature bridges between the platforms and the trains. The bridges have to be raised out of the way at night so that freight trains can use the line.










For more photos, see:

http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=676068&p=1


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

^^ This is weird. Why the platforms dont reach the tracks?


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

Falubaz said:


> ^^ This is weird. Why the platforms dont reach the tracks?


It is because the same tracks are used for freight trains in the evening hours. The ramps are raised at night so the freight trains can pass.

Steve


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)




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## sweet-d (Jul 20, 2010)

that was a really cool video


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

Nice video....a line to the airport is one of the best ideas for this system.


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

It's great Dallas has a large LRT system but seriously there should be no more building of new branch lines until a second downtown connector is built.

You could have 300 mile rail LRT/Metro system but it's not much use if it has 30 minute headways.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Well this is US, where mass transit don't get enough support or money as they do in Europe and Asia.


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## sweet-d (Jul 20, 2010)

State of the Union said:


> It's great Dallas has a large LRT system but seriously there should be no more building of new branch lines until a second downtown connector is built.
> 
> You could have 300 mile rail LRT/Metro system but it's not much use if it has 30 minute headways.


Well I think the thing that is stopping that from happening is it's not just it's other cities in the area that are making the decisions. Like Dallas wanted to build a subway line but the suburban areas wanted more transit in the suburbs. So well I think that's the reason.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

I noticed some construction and new metal pillars on I-30 near Grand Avenue a few days ago. Does anyone know if this is part of DART? I was wondering because they seem to be adjacent to the train yard.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Ah! you mean *East* Grand at South Barry ... looks like a warehouse district :dunno:


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

trainrover said:


> Ah! you mean *East* Grand at South Barry ... looks like a warehouse district :dunno:


Yes. They look like highway columns but I don't think they're putting in a new freeway there. I thought perhaps they're building a spur to Fair Park so the trains won't have to go halfway to Oak Cliff to get to the train yard.


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

"Stolen" from the DALLAS | DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) Development News, 

thanks *WesTexas* for posting this:



WesTexas said:


> Here are the new DART buses:


It's cool that these run on compressed natural gas. I'm not sure how efficient it is compared to diesel or gasoline but it seems to be a step in the right direction.

I wonder how the rest of the DART Rail system expansion is going. I've been to Dallas several times in the past couple months, I see the rail lines next to U.S. 75 but never see any trains. Also the first time I took the DART for fun a few months ago I noticed the downtown stations did not show when the next train was arriving, weird.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

FM 2258 said:


> It's cool that these run on compressed natural gas. I'm not sure how efficient it is compared to diesel or gasoline but it seems to be a step in the right direction.
> 
> I wonder how the rest of the DART Rail system expansion is going. I've been to Dallas several times in the past couple months, I see the rail lines next to U.S. 75 but never see any trains. Also the first time I took the DART for fun a few months ago I noticed the downtown stations did not show when the next train was arriving, weird.


Shows how far behind the US is with bus development. At lot of the rest of the world went to natural gas about 20 years ago. The benifit of natural gas is the cost, availability and emmisions as opposed to efficency. The rest of the world however is now starting to move away from natural gas into hybrid technology and diesel engines with even stricter enviromental requirements.


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## rantanamo (Sep 12, 2002)

ajw373 said:


> Shows how far behind the US is with bus development. At lot of the rest of the world went to natural gas about 20 years ago. The benifit of natural gas is the cost, availability and emmisions as opposed to efficency. The rest of the world however is now starting to move away from natural gas into hybrid technology and diesel engines with even stricter enviromental requirements.


not true at all.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

ajw373 said:


> far behind the US is with bus development


Canada also ... Quebec itself (i.e., compared to Ontario)? Even more so!


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

rantanamo said:


> not true at all.


Which part isn't true?


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

ajw373 said:


> Which part isn't true?


Well here are the problems *I* have with your statement.

First, most of DART's buses are 10+ years old, they really haven't taken the opportunity to purchase new buses that are CNG or hybrid. Second, we have hybrid and efficient diesel engine tech. Los Angeles already has a 100% CNG Fleet. Agencies around country have Hybrids running. Hybrid technology is nothing new in the US. However, I can attest from here in So-Cal, that due to the bankruptcy of ISE, many agencies have had to purchase CNG even though they had purchased Gas-Electric models before. It has nothing to do with the US being behind.


EDIT: You really must not live in the US. Hybrids are everywhere.


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## Bothar.G (Apr 8, 2011)

Interesting, the abbreviation﻿ caught my eye, DART (Dublin Area Rapid Transit).


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

State of the Union said:


> Well here are the problems *I* have with your statement.


You need to read my statement in the context of the post I was replying to. The poster was getting so excited about DART getting CNG buses, which as I pointed out have been common elsewhere in the world for a number of years, and also have I pointed out are elsewhere in the world becoming less of a choice in favour of more efficent and lower pouluting diesel or hybrid technology. Maybe what I should have said is DART is so far behind the times.

Certainly nothing wrong with that statement.


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

ajw373 said:


> You need to read my statement in the context of the post I was replying to. The poster was getting so excited about DART getting CNG buses, which as I pointed out have been common elsewhere in the world for a number of years, and also have I pointed out are elsewhere in the world becoming less of a choice in favour of more efficent and lower pouluting diesel or hybrid technology. Maybe what I should have said is *DART is so far behind the times.*
> 
> Certainly nothing wrong with that statement.


Yes, saying DART specifically is behind makes much more sense. I did read the context, but saying the "US is far behind in bus development" is a just plain ludicrous statement that made you look like you had no idea what the hell you are talking about.


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## goten2255 (Jun 24, 2010)

Dallas is impressive its light rail system is very impressive it may rival Los Angeles one day and its increable to see a city where cars are dominant, rail is becoming more and more common.

DART keep up the good job, transit is better then no transit, so i don't understand this whole thing is behind thing.

The united states is recovering what those stupid motor companies did to the united states after WWII was ignoring rail and build only highways and airports which is stupid in order to maintain a great transit a city has to have equal modes of transportation a balance not favorism.


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

goten2255 said:


> Dallas is impressive its light rail system is very impressive it may rival Los Angeles one day and its increable to see a city where cars are dominant, rail is becoming more and more common.


With measure R and several rail lines about start construction, higher density, and higher headways means Dallas will never touch LA. The Blue Line alone gets nearly twice as much ridership as Dallas' entire system.

Dallas needs more TOD and a second downtown connector. The current Downtown connector is Dallas' Achilles heel. Sure they have large rail system, but it's ridiculous headways because they have 4 different lines on 2 tracks will limit it's it's growth.


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## Wendy101 (Mar 6, 2012)

The rest of the world however is now starting to move away from natural gas into hybrid technology and diesel engines with even stricter enviromental requirements.


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## geogregor (Dec 11, 2006)

State of the Union said:


> Well here are the problems *I* have with your statement.
> 
> First, most of DART's buses are 10+ years old, they really haven't taken the opportunity to purchase new buses that are CNG or hybrid. Second, we have hybrid and efficient diesel engine tech. Los Angeles already has a 100% CNG Fleet. Agencies around country have Hybrids running. Hybrid technology is nothing new in the US. However, I can attest from here in So-Cal, that due to the bankruptcy of ISE, many agencies have had to purchase CNG even though they had purchased Gas-Electric models before. It has nothing to do with the US being behind.
> 
> ...


All true but I have to say that I have issue with the look of most of the American buses. They just look dated, even if they are new and have modern engines and other systems. 
Why is that? Is it that public is so conservative that buses have to be square and clumsy looking? I really don't get it.
Of course look is subjective but compare this:









with this:









or this:









interior of Solaris bus made in Poland









Are the new Dallas buses 100% low floor?


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

Purely in terms of aesthetics, I much prefer the 1st one to the other two. Especially the 2nd one which reminds me of some Caribbean tourist bus rather than a robust transit bus in a big city.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

I prefer the first one as well.

The others are just too "boxy" looking, and are also appear to be less aerodynamic as well which decreases fuel efficiency.


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## Ultramatic (Jul 6, 2009)

Not to mention our buses have real "Bumpers". :cheers:


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## NotTarts (Jan 24, 2012)

Besides, the bus doesn't even look like that. Here's the picture from the video:









The only things that bug me are the bumper bar and opening windows. Are those both just for safety reasons?


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

The bar in the front is a bike carrier. They have become very common in North America. Here is how it works:


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

I think it's good to have opening windows. What happens when the aircon fails? As for bumpers, really have no opinion re. buses, but US reg. bumpers sure make passenger cars ugly, makes a nice BMW look like it has a hang lip...


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

geogregor said:


> All true but I have to say that I have issue with the look of most of the American buses. They just look dated, even if they are new and have modern engines and other systems.
> Why is that? Is it that public is so conservative that buses have to be square and clumsy looking? I really don't get it.
> Of course look is subjective but compare this:
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but for me, even a C40LF(Not even restyled) looks better than those European Buses. Honestly, it's the European buses that look dated. That first bus is less square looking than the buses you say aren't????

Please tell me how those European buses look better than this:


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

Nouvellecosse said:


> Purely in terms of aesthetics, I much prefer the 1st one to the other two. Especially the 2nd one which reminds me of some Caribbean tourist bus rather than a robust transit bus in a big city.


But, but the first one doesn't look ... European!


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

There are better looking Euro buses than the ones geogregor posted. Besides, US buses were butt ugly boxes until recently.


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

LtBk said:


> There are better looking Euro buses than the ones geogregor posted. Besides, US buses were butt ugly boxes until recently.


You mean they're looking more European these days ?*

*sarcasm


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## Dallas star (Jul 6, 2006)

^ The first one would be from Dallas, the other 2 seem to be German.


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

LtBk said:


> There are better looking Euro buses than the ones geogregor posted. Besides, US buses were butt ugly boxes until recently.


Of course there are better looking buses, but he used those buses in his comparison so therefore saying "there are better looking Euro buses" is moot.

Also, The RTS has been around for ages and it certainly isnt boxy. Even the boxy looking ones, like the C40LF still look better LOL.

Edit: You Europeans have such a superiority complex it's rediculous. You will even say something looks better just because it's European even though it may be the most ugliest thing on the planet.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

State of the Union said:


> Edit: You Europeans have such a superiority complex it's rediculous. You will even say something looks better just because it's European even though it may be the most ugliest thing on the planet.


I'm not European (Australian actually), and think US buses generally look outdated though must admit the metrobus a few post backs looks good. So does that also give me a superiority complex? Also don't think the issue is squareness, just styling.


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## NotTarts (Jan 24, 2012)

ajw373 said:


> I'm not European (Australian actually), and think US buses generally look outdated though must admit the metrobus a few post backs looks good. So does that also give me a superiority complex? Also don't think the issue is squareness, just styling.


We have plenty of outdated buses in Australia. It's not just restricted to the US:


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

OMG! :hilarious 

Can those things even move under their own power?

:rofl:





But seriously though, they're cool.


Btw, in the first picture, are those three smoke stack things part of the bus or attached to something in the background?


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

ajw373 said:


> I'm not European (Australian actually), and think US buses generally look outdated though must admit the metrobus a few post backs looks good. So does that also give me a superiority complex? Also don't think the issue is squareness, just styling.


That wasn't aimed at you specifically, but I was trying to aim it at Europeans in general. The Europeans on this forum have a huge superiority complex. I'm not just going off of this thread, but also going off of other threads I've seen on this forum. Basically, anything that's DIFFERENT from European is automatically seen as inferior.

geogregor started the debate over squareness, and used European buses that were blatantly even more square than the American bus he was arguing against. Basically signaling to me that he thought those buses looked better just because they were European.

In my opinion, I think the even older american buses like the NABI 40-LFW Gen 1, or New Flyer C40LF look better than allot of new Euro buses. However, I think this is because the general styling of US buses vs Euro Buses is different. So to me, Euro buses are the ugliest buses on the planet, and to you guys on the other side of the world think our buses look outdated.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

geogregor said:


> American buses. They just look dated


Once upon a time, they didn't look dated, e.g.:











^^ featured here...

I used to find them quite stylish


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## Ultramatic (Jul 6, 2009)

State of the Union said:


> ...I was trying to aim it at Europeans in general. The Europeans on this forum have a huge superiority complex. ...Basically, anything that's DIFFERENT from European is automatically seen as inferior.


It's not a superiority complex, it's an inferiority complex, and only some of them have it. They desperately need to feel that they can better the U.S. in everything. Hey, it's _their_ problem. All I know I can afford to own and maintain a V8 powered car, and I'm just middle class. 'Nuff said. :cheers:


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## sweet-d (Jul 20, 2010)

I guess Texas can't do anything right when it comes to public transportation. hno:hno:


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

State of the Union said:


> I like DART's enthusiasm for expansion, but they really should cut down on extending branches when they should be building another downtown connector. I don't care if they if have the longest light rail system. 15-20 minute headways at 5 o clock in the afternoon is pathetic.


More frequency will be great especially in the hot Texas summers. When we took the train a few weeks ago it wasn't fun waiting so long for the train in the miserable heat. 

I noticed some stations and even downtown don't have message boards showing how long the next train will arrive. Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.


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## State of the Union (Jul 12, 2010)

sweet-d said:


> I guess Texas can't do anything right when it comes to public transportation. hno:hno:


They have the right intentions, but they seem to always have a glaring flaw that ruins the entire thing.

In Houston's case, it's excessive street running. In Dallas' case, it's the lack of capacity and frequencies with a single double-track downtown connector. Every Texan on this board seems to agree.

Nouvellecosse -You can have cleanest stations, best customer service, and only have angels riding it - but the fact is, if you miss the train, and have to wait 20 minutes when it would take that same amount of time to get to your destination by car just to wait for the next train, who is going to ride it?

Also, if there's an ONE accident on the downtown connector, the ENTIRE system is knocked out. LA is learning this the hard way with the new Expo Line - One thing happens on the shared track portion and now TWO lines are screwed. The Expo Line also showcases why at-grade light rail track sharing should avoided unless you add capacity like Portland.

It's going to get even worse when the new Orange Line Branch comes online, because now the Orange Line won't be a "select peak trip service" but a full blown line. I wonder if DART ever thought about this before-hand.


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## rantanamo (Sep 12, 2002)

FM 2258 said:


> More frequency will be great especially in the hot Texas summers. When we took the train a few weeks ago it wasn't fun waiting so long for the train in the miserable heat.
> 
> I noticed some stations and even downtown don't have message boards showing how long the next train will arrive. Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.


unlike Austin, most of the "cool" stuff people do is in other neighborhoods. Most pedestrians are usually around the West End or doing business. Really don't know if anything can be done to make downtown Dallas lively again but a critical mass.

I still think a lot of the criticisms are time sensitive. There is another downtown line planned. There are more commuter lines planned. The system is 16 years old and pretty much trying to get to the various employment nodes in the Dallas half of the metro. The true usefulness of the system won't come for another 15 years. Growing pains.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

..


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

FM 2258 said:


> Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.


Reminds me of the daytime videos I watched of Houston's ghost downtown.





State of the Union said:


> if you miss the train, and have to wait 20 minutes when it would take that same amount of time to get to your destination by car just to wait for the next train, who is going to ride it?


Is traffic seldom problematic around Dallas?


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

State of the Union said:


> They have the right intentions, but they seem to always have a glaring flaw that ruins the entire thing.
> 
> In Houston's case, it's excessive street running. In Dallas' case, it's the lack of capacity and frequencies with a single double-track downtown connector. Every Texan on this board seems to agree.
> 
> ...


They knew it and had plans for D2 - a downtown Dallas subway that would relieve much of the traffic and provide a workaround in the event of trouble. However, they ran out of money so they had to cancel D2. Well, technically it's not cancelled, it's just been put off until forever.

DART knows full well the trouble they can get into with the Orange Line comming into the corridor. I believe they are just hoping that things change and they can get the money to build D2.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ What about a high-capacity but lower cost solution, such as a monorail or elevated urban railway?


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

FM 2258 said:


> More frequency will be great especially in the hot Texas summers. When we took the train a few weeks ago it wasn't fun waiting so long for the train in the miserable heat.
> 
> I noticed some stations and even downtown don't have message boards showing how long the next train will arrive. Downtown Dallas doesn't seem busy or walkable for a city of it's size. There seems to be nothing downtown and not many people walking around.


I think that reason why reduced train frequencies during the peak (from to 10 to 15 minutes on each line) was to accommodate the Orange Line once it started service.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What about a high-capacity but lower cost solution, such as a monorail or elevated urban railway?


Monorail is a tourist trap in the American mind, so no. Elevated has nearly costs in the US as Subway, and there are too many who are going to bitch about it, so no. I should also point out that your suggestion of adding an incompatible mode to a existing cities transit system offends my notions of economy.


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

*Green Line construction*










Work now on the Northwest leg.


Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr



Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr


Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr


Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr


Green Line Construction by noahjeppson, on Flickr


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

The route looks it's gonna be express enough.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

desertpunk said:


> Work now on the Northwest leg.


These photos are from the George W Bush administration.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

desertpunk said:


> *Green Line construction*
> 
> Work now on the Northwest leg.



Those photos are old; the Green Line opened last year. 

The line now under construction is the Orange Line:

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

WFAA
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Train-to-Nowhere-Station-built-nearby-development-not-158516545.html



> *Train to nowhere? New Irving DART station is a lonely place*
> by JONATHAN BETZ
> WFAA
> 
> ...


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## sweet-d (Jul 20, 2010)

Well that's ammo for anti public transport groups.


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

dfwcre8tive said:


> Those photos are old; the Green Line opened last year.
> 
> The line now under construction is the Orange Line:
> 
> http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp


I was about to say I thought the green line was open and running. :nuts:


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

The Irving Convention Center Station is in the middle of a field because Irving's project to develop that area has been on hold with years of controversy. Being located in the Las Colinas Urban Center, the station will eventually be surrounded by some type of dense development. The next station down the line has already seen a lot of new projects filling formerly empty fields. Older development of the Urban Center is on the West side of the lake, and the arrival of DART has encouraged construction of new roads and infrastructure in areas that had been economically stagnant for years. The APT people mover will connect existing development to the new DART station.

Meanwhile, the first new segment of the Orange Line opens July 30th: http://dart.org/about/riderinsider/summer12irving.asp#supersaturday


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

The DART Orange Line will officially start service to Irving/Las Colinas on July 30.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

ajw373 said:


> It becomes a bottle neck the moment you have an issue with one line or if you want to increase frequencies which is what myself and the other poster are saying.


But there are a lot of cities that have all or most lines running through a single corridor in the center of the city. I'm not sure why it would be a bigger issue with DART than with other systems like BART. 



ajw373 said:


> Your miss reading it. The times shown are off peak. If you look at they key you will see they say services are more frequent during peak hours, and of course all the discussion above was about peak period frequencies. And as I said there is no way what so ever that Sydney's city rail network can be compared to Dart. For one Dart is a light rail network, not heavy like sydney. The city rail network extends for about 300km North, 200km West, 200km South and 200km South West and has over 300 stations. The bulk of the trains are 8 car double deckers, with a handful of smaller trains operating he diesel routes or suburban Newcastle or Wollongong services. Dart on the other hand has how many line, stations and covers what area? As I said no comparison what so ever.


All of this dwelling on City Rail is irrelevant since it has no berring on the topic. As I already said, if you don't feel it provides a good example, just look to many of the other systems as there are several that can be used for comparison. 



ajw373 said:


> You seem to keep switching between peak and offpeak times to make your argument.


Obviously I have to reccognise and discuss both, since few systems have a single frequency for both peak and off peak times. 


ajw373 said:


> For a service like Dart I would say 10 minute peak should be the minimum and 20 minutes off peak.


You seem to have a double standard regarding the frequency at different times of day. There are only two main reasons why one would wish to have high-frequency service. The first would be for rider convenience, and the second would be for system capacity. Rider convenience concerns should prevent frequency from dropping below a certain point at any time of day. If you say it's acceptable for frequency to be every 20 minutes off peak in terms of convenience, then it is acceptable on peak in terms of convenience as well. Obviously is isn't fair to say riders should receive levels of convenience off peak that wouldn't be acceptable on peak. Off-peak riders are not second class citizens. 

If frequency is to exceed this minimum on-peak, it is only due to capacity concerns. If 10 minute frequencies are needed for capacity during peak, then obviously that's what they should be. But if you only feel frequency should be 10 min on peak since 20 min is too inconvenient, then 20 min should be considered too inconvenient off peak also.



ajw373 said:


> As for your argument that to attract rider-ship reliability, cleanliness etc should be priorirites, now whilst yes they are important so too is frequencies, especially in a city like Dallas that has a good network of freeways. If you want to get people out of their car you need to offer a frequeny service. It is no good to expect someone to drive to a park and ride and then wait up to 15 minutes in peak or 30 minutes off peak then travel when they could probably drive in a short time period.


But of course, that obviously isn't true, is it? I mean, there are many commuter rail systems, even in NA that have higher ridership than DART light rail even with lower frequencies. Take Boston's T Commuter rail for instance. It has almost double the ridership of the DART light rail despite having peak frequency of no more than 20 min to 1/2 hour on most lines and 1/2 hour to 1 hour off peak. This despite being in a metro area about the same size as Dallas that just spent over $14 billion improving downtown freeway service and also having a subway/light rail system with several times the ridership of its commuter rail on top of that. 

I'm not going to say that frequency doesn't play a role in ridership as it certainly does. But once it's above the 15-20 minute threshold, there are other factors that obviously play just as large, if not a larger, role.


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

diablo234 said:


> The DART Orange Line will officially start service to Irving/Las Colinas on July 30.



Nice. I hope the areas around the station will fill in with some density in the future.


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## ajw373 (Oct 24, 2007)

Nouvellecosse said:


> But of course, that obviously isn't true, is it? I mean, there are many commuter rail systems, even in NA that have higher ridership than DART light rail even with lower frequencies. Take Boston's T Commuter rail for instance. It has almost double the ridership of the DART light rail despite having peak frequency of no more than 20 min to 1/2 hour on most lines and 1/2 hour to 1 hour off peak. This despite being in a metro area about the same size as Dallas that just spent over $14 billion improving downtown freeway service and also having a subway/light rail system with several times the ridership of its commuter rail on top of that.
> 
> I'm not going to say that frequency doesn't play a role in ridership as it certainly does. But once it's above the 15-20 minute threshold, there are other factors that obviously play just as large, if not a larger, role.


Sorry it is true, and I don't think comparing to another city is quite right. Now I don't know the Boston system, but from the very quick look I just had it seems as if Boston the line runs directly through some densely populated areas whereas the Dart for the most part goes up empty corridors and is feed from buses to where the population is and park and ride sites. So of course you would expect ridership in Boston to be higher.

As I was saying the key in Dallas would be to get people out of their cars, and having a 15 minute peak, 30 off peak service is not going to do that, when they could be in the city in the same times as they may have to wait to get the Dart. Of course what I was having a shot at earlier was your assumption that cleanliness would get people out of their cars onto the system.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Some stations are getting new longer names this month.

http://www.dart.org/about/servicechange/servicechange.asp?zeon=namechanges

It's just a waste of money changing all those signs.


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DART's Orange line opened to Irving/Las Colinas today. The next extension to DFW Airport property opens in December, followed by direct rail service to the airport's terminals in 2014.

http://www.nbcdfw.co...-164247146.html

University of Dallas Station:










Las Colinas Urban Center Station:










Irving Convention Center Station:










From DART Image Library: http://www.dart.org/newsroom/imagelibrary.asp


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

I'm optimistic about this new line, it may run through empty areas now but in the future it will be built up. Unlike other lines that run next to former or current freight line ROW's this one actually gets close to where things could be built.


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

Las Colinas has a people mover system called the Las Colinas Area Personal Transit System. Does any participant in this forum know if there is a convenient transfer to the people mover from the Las Colinas light rail station?


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

greg_christine said:


> Las Colinas has a people mover system called the Las Colinas Area Personal Transit System. Does any participant in this forum know if there is a convenient transfer to the people mover from the Las Colinas light rail station?


Yes, the Las Colinas Urban Center station has a new direct connection to the APT. They've converted one of the unused guideways to a pedestrian walkway from the station to Tower on Lake Carolyn and added stairs/elevators at the end of DART's platform. There are potential plans to build out remaining APT stations and fully automate the system as connecting traffic picks up.

You can see one of the APT vehicles parked at the end of the guideway in the photos below.



















Photos from jtk1519


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## dfwcre8tive (Oct 18, 2007)

DCTA starts midday service on Monday. The commuter schedules have been adjusted now that the new Stadler vehicles have been delivered.

http://www.ridedcta.com/images/stories/pdfs/transportation/A-train/A-train_August_2012_r725.pdf










Photo Reference


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

^^

DCTA uses diesel trains? If so I wonder why they did not electrify like DART.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> DCTA uses diesel trains? If so I wonder why they did not electrify like DART.


All about the Benjamins. This line really is a commuter line rather than light rail like DART, so diesel makes sense as far to the way most American commuter rail systems are built. Love those GTW trains! 

Steve


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

^^ They are definitely nice looking trains. I've noticed in New Jersey quite a few NJTransit trains are diesel. Adding more frequency and new trains = good for DCTA. :cheers:


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/tran...outes-are-extended-to-rowlett-dfw-airport.ece



> *Big day for DART as routes are extended to Rowlett, D/FW Airport *
> 
> By RAY LESZCYNSKI
> Staff Writer
> ...











https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1647385.-2207520000.1354688475&type=3&theater


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## WanKenobi (Nov 9, 2003)

Today in Vienna (Austria) was partly open completely new main railway station.
it's really nice station:


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

WanKenobi said:


> Today in Vienna (Austria) was partly open completely new main railway station.
> it's really nice station:


Wrong thread :doh:


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Dallas Morning News
> http://www.dallasnews.com/news/tran...outes-are-extended-to-rowlett-dfw-airport.ece
> 
> 
> ...


I'm very impressed with DART Rail and have used it several times while in Dallas. I can't wait until they get the connection to DFW airport completed. I feel that a rail connection from the airport to the city is essential for large cities. Buses can get stuck in traffic, taxi's are stupidly expensive and also get stuck in traffic. 2014 :cheers:


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

Very impressed with what a 'poster child for sprawl' is doing in terms of local rail. Doesn't Dallas now have the most extensive light rail system in North America ?


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

There are many children on such posters, not just Dallas.


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

Woonsocket54 said:


> There are many children on such posters, not just Dallas.


Huh ?


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Dale said:


> Very impressed with what a 'poster child for sprawl' is doing in terms of local rail. Doesn't Dallas now have the most extensive light rail system in North America ?


Something like that, DART already has 80 miles or light rail completed with more on the way (although I think Denver's RTD is a close competitor).

Anyways what was not listed on the map is that a southern extension of the Blue Line to the University of North Texas-Dallas is currently being planned.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Perhaps Dallas has the most LR mileage, but the ridership lags behind smaller systems.

Average weekday LR ridership in 3Q 2012 

Boston MBTA - 231.7k
LA Metro - 200.3k
SF Muni - 173.5k
Portland MAX - 129.6k
SD Trolley - 95.7k
Philadelphia SEPTA trolleys - 94.9k
Dallas DART - 78.8k


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## TexasBoi (Jan 7, 2004)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Perhaps Dallas has the most LR mileage, but the ridership lags behind smaller systems.
> 
> Average weekday LR ridership in 3Q 2012
> 
> ...


Update for weekday LR ridership in 4Q 2012
01. Boston - 222,500
02. Los Angeles - 203,400
03. San Francisco - 160,100
04. Portland - 115,400
05. Philadelphia - 113,900
06. Dallas - 103,100

Dallas has improved.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

twentyfivetacos said:


> Is it legal to carry guns on public transport in Texas?


Yes...


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...rs-stadler-dmus-for-tex-rail.html?channel=535
> 
> *Fort Worth orders Stadler DMUs for Tex Rail*
> Wednesday, June 10, 2015
> ...


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

^^Map of Tex Rail:
http://www.texrail.com/About/RouteandStations/Route.aspx


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Why they used a FLIRT 3 image when they ordered GTW's? or did something got mixed up?


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## lunarwhite (Jun 18, 2014)

Maadeuurija said:


> Why they used a FLIRT 3 image when they ordered GTW's? or did something got mixed up?


Here is the Fort Worth Star-Telegram article on the contract signing.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/traffic/your-commute/article23613976.html

The-T Is ordering 4-car FLIRTs, as shown. These will be the standard DMUs for future commuter train operation in the Dallas/Fort Worth area.

Also, Stadler may build their US manufacturing plant in this area.


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## lunarwhite (Jun 18, 2014)

Here is the Stadler press release about the order from Fort Worth's The-T transit agency. It includes a livery picture at the bottom.

http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/news/2015/06/10/stadler-rail-wins-100-million-dollar-contract-in-t/

Here is the FLIRT3 page from Stadler's website. Fort Worth is the first buyer of the diesel only version of the FLIRT3.

http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/vehicles/flirt-3/


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## Jim856796 (Jun 1, 2006)

On the question of Dallas being a car-centric community: Some prominent buildings in Dallas's CBD (such as the Renaissance Tower) are served by large car-parking structures, and anyone using public transport in the Dallas area is in the minority.


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## Electricron (Apr 7, 2015)

Jim856796 said:


> On the question of Dallas being a car-centric community: Some prominent buildings in Dallas's CBD (such as the Renaissance Tower) are served by large car-parking structures, and anyone using public transport in the Dallas area is in the minority.


So what's your point!
All of DART's light rail lines are designed to serve downtown Dallas. Downtown Dallas employs around 140,000; DART's daily ridership is around 100,000. That means around 50,000 individuals ride the trains to work and back home every day. Assuming all 50,000 are riding the trains to downtown for work, 35% of downtown workers ride the trains. Of course not all of the riders work in downtown - I suggest more than 50% of them do. Therefore, a significant percentage (more than 20%) of downtown workers are riding the trains. That's one in five, which means around four in five drive, and need parking spaces.

The DFW metro is spread out in all directions because there are no geographic obstacles to restrict growth in any direction. I suggest the trains ridership exceeds the expectations projected before they were built, and that means they should be considered a success.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/dallas-orders-more-catenary-free-trams.html
> 
> *Dallas orders more catenary-free trams*
> 20 Jul 2015
> ...


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

DALLAS--302 on Trinity River Bridge IB by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Some Photos From Jarrett Stewart


DSC02204_1 by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


TRE At Victory Station by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


DSC02210 by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


DSC02231 by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


DSC02233 by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


Dallas Bound TRE at Victory by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


TRE Arrived into Dallas by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


DSC02365 by Jarrett Stewart, on Flickr


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Although I would never say DART rail is a stellar success, I really admire how Dallas has been such a comprehensive system in such a small amount of time in such a car focused city in a conservative state.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

First Quarter 2015 Ridership numbers for Dallas

Source : http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2015-q1-ridership-APTA.pdf

*Light Rail*
Dallas / DART - 92,500 (2015) 

*Commuter Rail*
Dallas-Fort Worth / Trinity Railway Express - 7,800 (2015)
Denton / A-Train - 1,700 (2015)

*Bus Ridership*
Dallas / DART Bus - 116,000 (2015)


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

^^For Dallas, not New Orleans


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^For Dallas, not New Orleans


Dam , your fast...


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Some more Dallas Streetcar & Light Rail Photos from Peter Ehrlich 

Dallas Streetcar


DALLAS--302 Outside DART Main Shops. 1 of 2 by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr

M-Line


DALLAS--754 on St. Paul s of San Jacinto IB by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


DALLAS--636 on Turntable at Uptown/CityPlace by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


DALLAS--7169 lv Uptown/CityPlace IB by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr

Light Rail


DALLAS--154 at Galatyn Park IB by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


DALLAS--178 at St. Paul Station OB by Peter Ehrlich, on Flickr


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## CCs77 (Jul 30, 2008)

What’s the deal with that Blue Line southern extension?

I mean, it is a 2,6-mile, two-station extension, but it doesn’t seems to go to anything interesting. The final station will be near the University of Northern Texas at Dallas campus, but that is a small university, with only about 2500 students and just two buildings in its campus, is it projected to grow substancially in the next years to justify a DART station just right now? And not to mention that the place where they are building the station is like 600 meters away from the sole two buildings of the campus, going through a completely desolate area. It doesn't look much inviting to take the train there.

What baffles is the other station at Camp Wisdom, looking at Google Earth, it is currently located at the middle of nowhere. There is only a police station and a small complex of townhomes nearby, the rest is completely underdeveloped, is there a project to put up a large T.O.D. there?

It seems that is not uncommon in Dallas to put stations in underdeveloped areas expecting to develop. When they build that stations at the Bush Turnpike the area around it was completely undeveloped, and now there are lots of develoments there. But it took 10 years since they opened the station to the developments began to happen. But at least there were 3 bus lines going to that station. In the case of Camp Wisdom, there aren’t buses going there to justify the station either. Isn’t there a risk that it becomes like a ghost station until somebody actually builds something there? For example I was also reading that there are projected stations at South Las Colinas and Las Colinas Carpenter Ranch that were deferred until further developments occur in the area, although the area of South Las Colinas las Colinas Carpenter Ranch look far more developed than that surrounding Camp Wisdom or UNT Dallas.

I was wondering if there were not a better option to expand the system? Or was this extension the right move?


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

One can question whether DART is designed for moving a small minority of people or tools for redeveloping a auto-centric city.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

CCs77 said:


> The final station will be near the University of Northern Texas at Dallas campus, but that is a small university, with only about 2500 students and just two buildings in its campus, is it projected to grow substancially in the next years to justify a DART station just right now?





> UNT Dallas, the first public, four-year university in Dallas, is on a fast track — planning to increase enrollment from 2,100 currently to 6,000 students in 2020 and 16,000 by 2030… tremendous growth!


Source: http://www.untsystem.edu/news/2011/December/11-12-19-untd-growth.htm


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## Joshua Dodd (Aug 9, 2010)

According to this map, DART has some major plans for expansion in the coming decades


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Streetcar extension to Bishop Arts District is now scheduled to open in August 2016.

https://www.dart.org/rideralerts/fullra.asp?id=2908


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## 14 (Aug 27, 2015)

Suburbanist said:


> I'm sorry, but a streetcar departing ever 30min in a central area is just a joyride, not a very useful provision for public transportation.


I had the opportunity to ride the streetcar today. It is very much intended to be legitimate public transit. The southernmost existing station is closed due to the construction of the southern extension, so there are only three stations open. According to my GPS speedometer, the streetcar traveled 1.28 miles for a one-way trip between the three stations, which includes a crossing of the Trinity River, and completed this one-way trip in roughly four minutes. This indicates an average speed of 19.2 mph, including stops. The streetcar reached a max speed of 38.12 mph while crossing the river. The average speed is higher than what is typical of a bus, so it is effective public transit for those who need to travel the route. While this number is higher partially due to a long uninterrupted river crossing, it is also influenced by sections where the tracks are separated from auto traffic, both on the the bridge and elsewhere.

The car was pretty new and a modern streetcar, and it was very clean. It also accelerates quickly. Stops are highly visible and all have shelters. It was comfortable and easy to use

The current extent of the line is very limited. Once the extension at both ends is completed, the line should serve more people effectively. The frequencies are not good, but the fact that it is free may increase ridership enough to influence DART to increase frequencies. Overall, it seems to be intended as a start to DART's streetcar system, which will be gradually expanded.

If you want a streetcar joyride in Dallas that does not serve as effective public transport, the McKinney Avenue Streetcar is your answer. It is operated by an independent non-profit, and is useful really only as a tourist attraction, which is a shame because the route could be very useful if the cars would operate at a reasonable speed.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Who would have thought that I would one day agree with Suburbanist on something. Yes, a central tram with a headway of 30 min is little more than a toy, unless it is a direct connector to some commuter rail (and the timetable also synchronized with the trains to offer direct connections to every train) in which case it is simply a prolongation of a commuter rail line.

All the speed is of no avail if you don't get a tram most of the time.

If the tram line is free, ie being subsidized anyway, why don't they invest in at least a 15 min headway, at which point it would become usuable without knowing the timetable? It couldn't be possibly so incredibly more expensive and it would be much more usable and therefore attract more riders.


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## 2Easy (Dec 29, 2004)

Suburbanist said:


> It is wrong to compare buses with trains and suppose good buses are substitutes for trains. Buses are inferior by definition, and will always be.


Completely false. As public transportation, buses have many benefits over rail and depending on the circumstances may be favorable. Take the Dallas streetcar for example. Bus service would be equally fast, would have had much less capital costs, would be cheaper to operate, and currently much cheaper to maintain. Add that minor things tend to completely shut down streetcars (fender benders that don't even involve the train, police activity, etc) while buses just drive around the mess. 

There are certainly benefits to building streetcars but even many of those (mostly economic) benefits exist because car centric folk are opposed to riding buses.


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## 14 (Aug 27, 2015)

2Easy said:


> Completely false. As public transportation, buses have many benefits over rail and depending on the circumstances may be favorable. Take the Dallas streetcar for example. Bus service would be equally fast, would have had much less capital costs, would be cheaper to operate, and currently much cheaper to maintain. Add that minor things tend to completely shut down streetcars (fender benders that don't even involve the train, police activity, etc) while buses just drive around the mess.
> 
> There are certainly benefits to building streetcars but even many of those (mostly economic) benefits exist because car centric folk are opposed to riding buses.


There is also an air quality benefit to not spewing diesel exhaust and rubber dust into the neighborhood. The streetcar has a higher capacity than any bus I've ridden on. It also has sections of dedicated RoW. The ride is smoother than a bus. Streetcars do not travel erratically like some bus drivers, and are therefore safer to cyclists and pedestrians, as the rails show exactly where it will go. Traffic signal priority seems to work better with rail than bus (though this may be merely how it is programmed).

I think the real reason Dallas is building a streetcar network is to get people who view public transit as inconvenient and uncomfortable to try it on a vehicle that is comfortable and easy to ride, and hopefully expand ridership throughout the DART system by connecting these new riders. This line was also built to provide service to a hospital, and the smoother ride that rail provides could be of legitimate benefit to anyone using it for that purpose.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Articulated busses in Vienna seem to be similarely prone to street blockades as trams. They do have the chance to circumvent certain things, if there is plenty of space but on the other side the risk of someone block the road is also higher because people are aware that blocking a tram track is not only silly but can also be very costly while they think busses can just drive around. But busses aren't as small as cars and especially higher capacity articulated busses needed enough space to drive around an obsacle or a corner. With trams it is very clear where which space they need exactly.

I am not a die hard rail supporter or bus hater though. I think a good network will employ different modes of transport. A purely bus only system however is usually a very complicated and suboptimal system (Dubli nowadays has some light rail, but thats the closest thing I have experienced personally). 

Many cost calculations of busses are ignoring the track construction and maintenance costs, even though a bus takes a much bigger toll on roads than a car.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*Birthday wishes*

Happy 20th birthday to the Dallas light-rail system















http://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1246


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*Birthday wishes*

Happy 5th birthday to the A-Train (commuter rail between Denton and Trinity Mills DART in Carrollton).

A-Train opened for service 2011.06.20.

http://hoponboardblog.com/2016/06/happy-fifth-birthday-a-train/


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*1st Quarter 2016 Ridership numbers for Dallas*

*Light Rail*
Dallas / DART LRT - 93,500 (2016) : 3.02% + 

*Bus Ridership*
Dallas / DART Bus - 112,200 (2016) : -1.18%


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...st-us-commuter-rail-contract.html?channel=535
> 
> *FirstGroup wins first US commuter rail contract*
> Thursday, July 21, 2016
> ...


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

*Top Stories: Light Rail Test Run, Spotlight On Petra Kelly 
*
The top stories this afternoon from KERA news: A new light rail extension takes its maiden voyage[...]









Source: http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kera/files/styles/medium/public/201607/train_pic.jpg


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## lkstrknb (Jan 14, 2009)

Here is my video of the trains in and around Dallas!


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## lunarwhite (Jun 18, 2014)

The extension of the Dallas Streetcar to Bishop Arts will occur on Saturday, August 27. Here is an article from a neighborhood weekly magazine.

http://oakcliff.advocatemag.com/2016/07/bishop-arts-streetcar-extension-opens-aug-27/


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## rheintram (Mar 5, 2008)

lkstrknb said:


> Here is my video of the trains in and around Dallas!


I really enjoyed your video, although Dallas looks like a ghosttown in it... and I'm surprised they opted for such short vehicles on the new streetcar line.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

It's because Dallas is one of most auto-centric cities on the planet. It has a tiny urban core surrounded by endless suburban sprawl and mass transit is very limited.


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## Joshua Dodd (Aug 9, 2010)

Dallas, Houston, Phoenix and Los Angeles are probably the four most notoriously autocentric cities on planet Earth.


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

Joshua Dodd said:


> Dallas, Houston, Phoenix and Los Angeles are probably the four most notoriously autocentric cities on planet Earth.


They are also the 4 biggest cities that grew up in the era of the automobile in the US. It took 50 years to build them into the auto-centric hell holes they are now. It'll take another 50 years of investment and construction to dig them out of it. Having an extensive transit system will be part of that.


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

I'm afraid it's not possible any more to change that... due to the city structure - there is just suburbs. In such environment it is impossible to build a good transportation. Unless you start to destroy the houses and build there condos... lets say for a good start - along few axis - together with a high capacity transit lines otherwise it's not doable. 
The philosophy of american urbanisation was wrong from the beginning - now ppl have to pay for that sitting for hours in their cars. 
You can't live without a car in States and Canada (maybe partly in very few cities you could - but how many are there? 3? 4? Not many more). In some other countries - you can, easily. 
I dont believe cities like Dallas or LA will ever be citizens-without-a-car-friendly.


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## JJG (Aug 4, 2010)

LtBk said:


> It's because Dallas is one of most auto-centric cities on the planet. *It has a tiny urban core *surrounded by endless suburban sprawl and mass transit is very limited.


Eh, I wouldn't say "tiny" and mass transit is actually very well built compared to most other Sunbelt cities... especially here in Texas.


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

No use beating ourselves up about how our most dynamic cities grew up around the automobile. I recommend tempering expectations and also cultivating an appreciation for other aspects that make cities great. 

On a sidenote: Dallas was one of those cities I was prepared NOT to like, principally due to the bias against the sprawling template. But I found that I REALLY liked it!


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

JJG said:


> Eh, I wouldn't say "tiny" and mass transit is actually very well built compared to most other Sunbelt cities... especially here in Texas.


It's tiny relative to the size of the urban area of nearly 7 million



> No use beating ourselves up about how our most dynamic cities grew up around the automobile. I recommend tempering expectations and also cultivating an appreciation for other aspects that make cities great.


Thanks to cheap cost of living, but no boom lasts forever.


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

Falubaz said:


> You can't live without a car in States and Canada (maybe partly in very few cities you could - but how many are there? 3? 4? Not many more). In some other countries - you can, easily.
> I dont believe cities like Dallas or LA will ever be citizens-without-a-car-friendly.


You can't compare Canadian to American transit systems. Even in cities of 200,000 you can usually live without car in Canada. Canadian ridership is about triple US levels and for cities under 2 million it's often 5 to 10 times higher with no exaggeration. 

Anyway. yes Dallas sprawls and it's downtown for a city it's size is small. Ridership sucks and frequency is not very good but all that said Dallas has done an amazing job in building a comprehensive rapid/mass transit system. 

It has it's faults but Dallas residence can be very proud of how far they have come in such a short amount of time


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## JasnoDTX (Jun 29, 2014)

LtBk said:


> It's because Dallas is one of most auto-centric cities on the planet. It has a tiny urban core surrounded by endless suburban sprawl and mass transit is very limited.


When was the last time you were in Dallas?
Tiny urban core? 

Sunbelt cities like Dallas have multiple cores spread out and multiple skylines to boot. Unlike dull one core cities like Baltimore.


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## Joshua Dodd (Aug 9, 2010)

> I dont believe cities like Dallas or LA will ever be citizens-without-a-car-friendly.


Dallas is emerging with its public transit system via DART. The transformation has been phenomenal. 30 years ago this was absolutely true. But now the urban core of the city is becoming far more accessible without car via light rail. Tourist and business travelers don't even need to catch a taxi from the airport now that DART connects the downtown core to DFW. It is possible to travel around Dallas without a car. People live and work in downtown. They can take the TRE to Fort Worth, DART to the suburbs like Plano or Rowlett. Though we are not there yet, Dallas is really pushing forward to becoming a pedestrian oriented city.

The only problem with DART rail is that the train arrivals and departures can be ridiculously protracted. That's my biggest issue.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

JasnoDTX said:


> When was the last time you were in Dallas?
> Tiny urban core?
> 
> Sunbelt cities like Dallas have multiple cores spread out and multiple skylines to boot. Unlike dull one core cities like Baltimore.


I never been there, but my dad used to live there in late 70's, early 80's before moving to MD. He wasn't impressed with it and I could see why despite the improvements in past 10+ years.


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## JJG (Aug 4, 2010)

LtBk said:


> It's tiny relative to the size of the urban area of nearly 7 million


You do know the _entire_ area does not surround itself around Dallas, right?

There are TWO major cities in The Metroplex...


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## JasnoDTX (Jun 29, 2014)

LtBk said:


> I never been there, but my dad used to live there in late 70's, early 80's before moving to MD. He wasn't impressed with it and I could see why despite the improvements in past 10+ years.


Well then with that limited info how could you say there its just a tiny downtown with suburbs? That's like me describing Baltimore's culture just by seeing a pic of the city. 

Dallas proper is 1.3+million. Metro is nearly 7 million. Forth largest metro in the USA. Even one of our "suburbs", Fort Worth, is larger than Baltimore! (Chill JJG just painting a picture) 792k Vs 623k. Our transit system is one of if not the largest in the nation!

Basing Dallas off of what your Dad saw in the 70s wouldn't be accurate information. Dallas is much more dense than it used it be and is bustling. I've seen it explode in the past few years. It's not just a downtown surrounded by strip malls. You should check out all the Dallas latest pics on this site.
I was gonna talk a little trash about Baltimore but it would be too easy.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Dallas is definitely trending in the right direction but it will take decades to achieve the type of density that justifies investment in heavy rail.


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## CCs77 (Jul 30, 2008)

Joshua Dodd said:


> Dallas, Houston, Phoenix and Los Angeles are probably the four most notoriously autocentric cities on planet Earth.


Well, there are worst, much worst that those cities, particularly cities in the midwest that, although smaller, would make the cities you mentioned as transit paradises in comparison. 

Cities in Oklahoma, for example, are like transit deserts. Oklahoma City has a very small transit system, with just about 22 routes, with hourly headways or half an hour at the best. Most of them doesn't run after 7 or 8 PM, many of them doesn't run on saturdays and NONE of them on sundays. Tulsa seems to be even worst. with headways between 45 to one and a half hour, and also without service in the evening, very limited on saturdays and no service at all on sundays and holydays, and with a daily ridership of only 10.000.

Although you may say they are smaller, thay are not that small, with a population of almost half a million for Tulsa proper and over a million in its metro area. OC has over 6000 people in the city, and almost a million and a half in the metro.

For comparison, Culver City bus, covering just a small area of LA, has a ridership about twice as large as Tulsa. And Santa Monica Big Blue Bus, another smaller bus agency in the Los Angeles area, has a ridership of 65 thousand, almost 7 times Tulsa's ridership.


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## Joshua Dodd (Aug 9, 2010)

Dallas was the equivalent of what Oklahoma City is today back in the 70s with a crime wave that made it one of the most dangerous cities in America at the time. Of course, this was true for nearly every city in America at that time period due to deterioration in cities caused by two main factors: Suburban growth and deindustrialization. 

With cars and freeways businesses and people left and emptied the cities for the suburbs. With deindustrialization, or what I like to call "Post Industrial", the industrial base of major cities either shut down and relocated outside the city or to other countries. With all these factors, our major cities suffered tremendously. Urban areas became hives of violent crime and Dallas was no exception. 

However Dallas, especially when compared to most other major cities, has really evolved. The Metroplex is now the official logistics capitol of the Western Hemisphere. For this reason both Dallas and Fort Worth have become a world class destination for businesses all over the world. What were once ghettos in Dallas are transforming into pedestrian oriented business and residential meccas. We have the nation's largest light rail system. Our homicide rate is now at 1930 level lows--back when Dallas only had a population of 200,000 people! There is a good reason why 35 companies from Silicon Valley have relocated to Dallas alone in the past few years. To say that Dallas has improved in 10 years is really an understatement. But the most incredible thing of all is how fast our light rail system has grown and the spur of growth it has caused along its lines.


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/tran...gency-is-sticking-with-street-level-route.ece

_*Downtown leaders want new DART line to be a subway, but agency is sticking with street-level route*

By Brandon Formby
Transportation Writer
Published: 03 August 2016 03:44 PM
Updated: 03 August 2016 09:10 PM

Despite mounting calls from businesses, developers and residents in Dallas' urban core, Dallas Area Rapid Transit officials aren't likely to put a new downtown light-rail route underground. 

"We don't see a way in which to be able to afford it," DART rail planning vice president Steve Salin told a room full of civic leaders and business people Wednesday evening. 

The agency estimates that its controversial plans for a second downtown rail route, which would be about 79 percent at street level, will cost about $520 million. Putting most of the line underground along similar alignments would cost an estimated $1.14 billion. Last year, though, the agency estimated that one subway route under Commerce Street would cost $912 million. 

..._


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## Tower Dude (Oct 13, 2013)

Hmmm if the support is there it might be possible for a subway to happen.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Joshua Dodd said:


> The Metroplex is now the official logistics capitol of the Western Hemisphere.


what official made this official?


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

If they really want it to go underground so bad DART should give the businesses and developers choice; either pay up or shut up.


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## Joshua Dodd (Aug 9, 2010)

Woonsocket54 said:


> what official made this official?


" More and more decision-makers from across the globe have come to understand that the “region of choice” for a logistics operation in the Americas well into the next millennium will be the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex."

http://www.iipod-texas.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/nct-logistics-study.pdf

And from Global Trade Magazine, which lists DFW number 11 in top 50 cities for global trade: 
"With superb cargo facilities at DFW, great rail service from BNSF and access to a plethora of interstates, it’s a logistic dream."

http://www.globaltrademag.com/features/top-50-cities-for-global-trade


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

*2 New Stops Added To Dallas Streetcar Schedule*

DALLAS (CBSDFW.COM) – Riders will soon have two new stops on the Dallas Streetcar – locations on Zang Boulevard at 6th Street and between Davis and 7th Street in the Bishop Arts District[...]


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

*Dallas Digs in on Doing a New Downtown Rail Line Right*

We talk here about things that go wrong, do we not? Bad things, frustrating things, things gone haywire. So if something looks as if it might be headed in a right direction for a change, we could mention it just for grins, right[...]


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

There is a point when lines become just too congested like Dallas's where a subway makes sense. 

It would free up space on the road above for a pleasant pedestrian way and allow for increased frequency even without higher costs as the train spend less time negotiating downtown traffic and more time serving the city itself.


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## mensolú (Jul 27, 2015)

double post


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

*Does Dallas Really Have to Choose Between a Subway and a Streetcar?*

Robert Wilonsky has one dud of a column in today’s paper about DART, D2, and the whole downtown streetcar business[...]


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## BoulderGrad (Jun 29, 2005)

krnboy1009 said:


> Subway? In Texas? I was told Texans do not ride public transit. What madness is this?
> 
> Seriously though, I hope this goes through. 4 lines sharing two tracks both ways seems...not ideal.


Yep! Current off-peak frequencies are 20-30 minutes! Here's hoping that, with the subway, they can get peak frequencies down below 10 minutes and keep the worst off peak frequencies under 15 minutes. Still going to have some problems with the goofy 3 line section NE of the tunnels tho...


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## ssiguy2 (Feb 19, 2005)

20 to 30 minutes is absolutely ridiculous and takes the 'rapid' out of 'rapid transit'.


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## towerpower123 (Feb 12, 2013)

ssiguy2 said:


> 20 to 30 minutes is absolutely ridiculous and takes the 'rapid' out of 'rapid transit'.


When 4 lines share the same pair of tracks, that's averaging 5-7 minutes in the central shared section per line, assuming they could actually space them out. It is very rare to avoid bunching, no matter how hard they try with the schedule, with traffic blocking the route, someone holding the doors for too long, or any other issue, not to mention if they have to single-track it for any reason. They need a relief line to increase frequency significantly. Look at that one spot in the center. It is very stupid to do, but it is a very common cost saving measure on the excuse of easier transfers between lines, at the expense of downtown coverage area. NYC struggles with 3 lines on 4 tracks, nevermind 4 lines on 2 tracks.









DART also already has one single underground station at Cityplace which serves 3 lines. A 2nd underground station was stopped a couple decades ago and never completed.
Cityplace/Uptown station - Wikipedia


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## p7252 (Mar 29, 2021)

4 lines are only at 4 stations, so you can go with the good frequency only 3 stations... that is not very far. I agree with ssiguy2 on that.


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## nanar (Apr 12, 2005)

Hi



towerpower123 said:


> When 4 lines share the same pair of tracks, that's averaging 5-7 minutes in the central shared section per line, assuming they could actually space them out. It is very rare to avoid bunching, no matter how hard they try with the schedule, with traffic blocking the route, someone holding the doors for too long, or any other issue, not to mention if they have to single-track it for any reason. They need a relief line to increase frequency significantly


Please, just look at this video, from 2mn45s and during *6 ou 7 minutes* : 





The tram where is the videographer crosses not less than *nine or ten* others streetcars


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## towerpower123 (Feb 12, 2013)

^^^ In the United States, when the light rail system shares any portion of its route with heavy rail passenger or freight trains, all of the FRA regulations apply, and part of it is operating using signals as if it were longer locomotive hauled commuter trains instead of streetcars that could be operated similar to buses in a European city like Zurich. That significantly increases the spacing on the shared section.


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## nanar (Apr 12, 2005)

Yes, I understand this objection, But ,,, is this the case for all branches of Dallas LRT, over their entire lenght ?

A similar case exists in the city where I live, and I have been campaigning for years for these railways to become property of Local Transit Authority instead of National French Railways (SNCF), for changing regulations.


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## Aaraldi (Dec 6, 2014)

towerpower123 said:


> ^^^ In the United States, when the light rail system shares any portion of its route with heavy rail passenger or freight trains, all of the FRA regulations apply,


FRA regulation only apply for a shared use of track or a shared use of ROW when they have a common signaling system for what ever reason u want to run a LRT with a class 1 railroad compliant signalling system. Does Dallas LRT share a common signalling system controlled by a FRA regulated railroad?

_Mere use of a common right-of-way or corridor in which the conventional railroad and rapid transit operation do not share any means of train control, have a rail crossing at grade, or operate over the same highway-rail grade crossings would not trigger FRA’s exercise of jurisdiction. In this context, the presence of intrusion detection devices to alert one or both carriers to incursions by the other one would not be considered a means of common train control. These common rights of way are often designed so that the two systems function completely independently of each other. _



https://static.smart-union.org/worksite/PDFs/safetylawsummary/FRA_lightrail_operations.pdf


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

"DART Celebrates Opening of Hidden Ridge Station in Irving"






DART Celebrates Opening of Hidden Ridge Station in Irving







www.dart.org


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## krnboy1009 (Aug 9, 2011)

Woonsocket54 said:


> "DART Celebrates Opening of Hidden Ridge Station in Irving"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The website looks very outdated, I have to say.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

with a planned 2.1-mile extension of TexRail to the medical district, Fort Worth is certainly building more rail nowadays than the much larger Houston:









Learn about planned new southside station for TEXRail


Published on April 08, 2021 Last fall, Trinity Metro began conducting the environmental assessment and preliminary engineering for a 2.1-mile Trinity Metro T




fortworthbusiness.com


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

this is the new Dallas/Ft Worth rail system map, updated a few days ago to add the newly opened Hidden Ridge (Orange Line) LRT station in Irving.














DART Schedules and Maps


DART offers a variety of tools to help you get to your destination. Routes are color-coded to help you locate individual routes serving your locations. Information on individual route maps and schedules, our system map, can be found below. Service may vary on holidays.




www.dart.org





the map also includes the 3 existing commuter rail lines, but does not yet show the Silver Line commuter rail (which is still under construction)


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Why DART is pushing back the opening date for the Silver Line to DFW Airport


The long-anticipated Dallas Area Rapid Transit Silver Line will open in late 2024, two years after it was to begin carrying passengers between DFW Airport and...



www.dallasnews.com





Silver Line opening delayed to 2024


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## prageethSL (May 5, 2013)

*DART reconfigures new D2 subway to lessen impact to Deep Ellum area*

Dallas officials and DART have come up with an alternative for the surface point, and it has nothing to do with the name. Original plans called for the D2 subway to come up for air along Good Latimer before traveling a few blocks north to Swiss Avenue. At Swiss Avenue DART wanted to construct a Y-shaped confluence of the rail lines, called a “wye” junction. The junction would require the acquisition of a large amount of land and could damage one of the main routes in and out of Deep Ellum.
The Deep Ellum Foundation and other area stakeholders balked at the plans, and city officials asked DART to come up with a new configuration.
Seventeen alignments were considered, and 16 came with problems. In the end, DART decided to create a subway station just west of IH-345 above Pacific Avenue.
Now the issue is how the existing Green Line will work with the D2 track now that it does not go through Deep Ellum. The change will impact about 20% of riders.
DART hopes to improve service to those impacted riders by increasing frequency on Green Line trains that serve as direct lines north to Bachman Lake, but doing so would cost about $8 million annually.
DART also is hoping to receive a federal grant for D2 work.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Reunion Tower by KLB2305, on Flickr


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Plans for high-speed rail between Dallas and Fort Worth, with a stop in Arlington, move forward *
The Dallas Morning News _Excerpt_
Oct 29, 2021

In 15 to 20 years, you might be able to hop on a train in Dallas and arrive in downtown Fort Worth 10 minutes later.

Plans to develop high-speed transportation linking the two cities are moving forward. This weekend, the North Central Texas Council of Governments will host a public meeting in Arlington to provide the latest details and gather feedback.

Transportation planners have studied more than 40 possible routes and numerous technologies to bring high-speed transportation to the region, said Dan Lamers, the agency’s senior program manager.

More : Plans for high-speed rail between Dallas and Fort Worth, with a stop in Arlington, move forward


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

Some of the first DART Silver Line DMU's are done and undergoing testing at the Stadler factory in Salt Lake City:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1799931106870059


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## phoenixboi08 (Dec 6, 2009)

zaphod said:


> Some of the first DART Silver Line DMU's are done and undergoing testing at the Stadler factory in Salt Lake City:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So nice. Wish NJ Transit would purchase rolling stock like this...


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

DART has started to plan for the eventual replacement of their existing light rail trains some of which are from 1996. It sounds like the goal is to have new trains delivered in the year 2026 when the oldest of current fleet reaches 30 years old. Deliveries would continue until 2032, which is fine as some of the existing trains are actually newer despite having an old design and wouldn't be as worn out by then. 

Also this entails some upgrades to station platforms and the rail yards and maintenance facilities, which have been maintaining a single type of train for a long time now.



https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/custitem12_13dec22.pdf



It sounds like by 2024 we will know what they are going to be buying and get some renderings and mockups.


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## prageethSL (May 5, 2013)

> https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/custitem12_13dec22.pdf


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