# SPAIN | High Speed Rail



## Mr.Gunther

seems nicer than amtrack


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## KCexile

Excellent photos Bitxofo! Thanks! 

Does anyone know if the Talgo and ICE versions of the AVE will run the same route? If so, why? Also, Bitxofo - Do these coaches use Jacobs trucks (one set for two cars)? They seem to have the same profile as the ICE 3, only with bigger windows and lower floors.


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## Bitxofo

KCexile said:


> Excellent photos Bitxofo! Thanks!
> 
> Does anyone know if the Talgo and ICE versions of the AVE will run the same route? If so, why? Also, Bitxofo - Do these coaches use Jacobs trucks (one set for two cars)? They seem to have the same profile as the ICE 3, only with bigger windows and lower floors.


TALGO and ICE3 versions of the AVE will run from Barcelona to Madrid and vice versa in 2007, with a top speed of 350km/h.
:wink2:
ICE3 Velaro or AVE 103:


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## mongozx

impressive


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## DonQui

Mr.Gunther said:


> seems nicer than amtrack


Pretty much, most trains in western Europe kick the crap out of Amtrak.


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## Frog

I didn't like the look of the "duck" at first but its growing on me  
the interior looks fantastic though. gotta travel on one of these sometime :drool: 
and also the airplane style screen showing how far you are is a nice touch! I wish we had those on some of our trains :cheers:


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## cellete

chiccoplease said:


> Very nice, thanks for posting. I wish the entire Spanish network was at least similar to this.


Hahaha


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## Al Encinas

Nice pics


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## spsmiler

Yes, very nice pics.

is this a "prototype" train - or are there many being built?

Simon


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## DonQui

spsmiler said:


> Yes, very nice pics.
> 
> is this a "prototype" train - or are there many being built?
> 
> Simon


16 will operate on the Madrid-Barcelona line when it becomes fully operational in a couple of years.


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## spsmiler

Frog said:


> I didn't like the look of the "duck" at first but its growing on me
> the interior looks fantastic though. gotta travel on one of these sometime :drool:
> and also the airplane style screen showing how far you are is a nice touch! I wish we had those on some of our trains :cheers:


I have never seen aircraft style displays showing how far you have travelled / are yet to travel on a train before.


Simon


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## jesarm

the duck fly


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## Falubaz

spsmiler said:


> I have never seen aircraft style displays showing how far you have travelled / are yet to travel on a train before.
> 
> 
> Simon


i traveled last year with Thomac Cook airlines which do have such displays showing the entire route and the distance you have traveled and some more informations. there was also a camera on the bottom of the plane showing what happens under the machine while starting or landing. that was soooo great! i wish there will be such displays in all trains, too showing where you are and where will the train stop or somethionk like this.


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## Nacho_82

it looks very comfortable


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## samsonyuen

Great pics. What's TALGO stand for? And is it called that more or AVE? Where does it go now?


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## spsmiler

Falubaz said:


> i traveled last year with Thomac Cook airlines which do have such displays showing the entire route and the distance you have traveled and some more informations. there was also a camera on the bottom of the plane showing what happens under the machine while starting or landing. that was soooo great! i wish there will be such displays in all trains, too showing where you are and where will the train stop or somethionk like this.


Hi,

I saw the TV displays showing how far travelled / yet to travel when I flew to Australia (from London) back in 1991. 

But this is the first time I have seen this on a train!

Simon


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## willo

samsonyuen said:


> Great pics. What's TALGO stand for? And is it called that more or AVE? Where does it go now?



TALGO is the name of the company that have made that train. AVE is the name for all spanish high speed train. it means ''Alta Velocidad Española'' (spanish high speed)

these ''ducks'' are operating now on the AVE line Madrid-LLeida


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## PmA

samsonyuen said:


> Great pics. What's TALGO stand for? And is it called that more or AVE? Where does it go now?


As a complement of the information _willo_ gave us, I'll add more details on the topic. TALGO is the name of the company, standing for 'Tren Articulado Ligero Goicoechea Oriol' (wich means, literally: 'Light Articulate Train Goicoechea Oriol', with the last two words coming from the Spanish developers' surnames). AVE ('Alta Velocidad Española' - 'Spanish High Speed') is now the name of the product offered by the railway company RENFE (more acronyms, lol: 'REd Nacional de FErrocarriles' - 'National Railway Network'). People commonly use the term AVE alluding to other services such as the so-called 'Shuttles' between Seville-Córdoba or Madrid-Puertollano, though, even if these services are not really part of the AVE services offered by Renfe (high speed lines, high speed trains, but different name).

That's it


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## mic of Orion

wow, great looking train, 10 out of 10.... brill...


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## DaDvD

It's so beautiful...:drool:


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## Mongo8780

DonQui said:


> Pretty much, most trains in western Europe kick the crap out of Amtrak.


Uhh guys, Amtrak already has these trainsets, save the engine. They run in the Cascades Corridor between Vancouver, BC, Canada and Eugene, OR, USA.


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## Bitxofo

Yes! :yes:
But their average speed in the USA is 100km/h or less...
:runaway:


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## DonQui

Mongo8780 said:


> Uhh guys, Amtrak already has these trainsets, save the engine. They run in the Cascades Corridor between Vancouver, BC, Canada and Eugene, OR, USA.


Wrong!

These are not high speed trains at all. They are made by Talgo, but they are not high speed trains (look at how huge the engine is, that could not support a high speed along the lines of 200 mph). 

And what the US calls highspeed, is actually slow as sin.

:no:


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## samsonyuen

Thanks for all the info guys. Hope I can go on it sometime soon!


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## Mongo8780

DonQui said:


> Wrong!
> 
> These are not high speed trains at all. They are made by Talgo, but they are not high speed trains (look at how huge the engine is, that could not support a high speed along the lines of 200 mph).
> 
> And what the US calls highspeed, is actually slow as sin.
> 
> :no:


I never said they were highspeed. I said they had the trainsets minus the engine. They have the same tilting mechanism as the trains in other countries do and once the track is upgraded in the corridor they will be going upwards of 100mph.


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## Boreal.

well Talgo have manufactured several trains in partnership with Bombardier in Canada, so Talgo type trains have many decades running in North America.


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## rab

Just wondering, why are there two new types (Talgo/ICE) of high speed train being constructed for Spain?


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## soulkorea

wow, very nice!!!
I really like the interior.


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## Arpels

fantastic train, very comfortable!!


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## Bitxofo

rab said:


> Just wondering, why are there two new types (Talgo/ICE) of high speed train being constructed for Spain?


Actually, in Spain we have got 4 different types of high speed trains...


:runaway:


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## DaDvD

rab said:


> Just wondering, why are there two new types (Talgo/ICE) of high speed train being constructed for Spain?


They're being built to run on these high speed rail lines:










Red lines: Exclusively for passengers' trains. Speed: 300-350 km/h
Dashed red lines: Same as the above ones, but dependent on Andalucía's Regional Government.
Blue lines: Freight & passenger's trains. Speed: at least 250 km/h
Dashed yellow lines: Possibly added lines
Grey lines: Normal lines

At the moment, they are in service the following lines:
Madrid-Sevilla
Madrid-Lleida
Madrid-Huesca

Next Openings:
Madrid-Toledo (December 2005)
Madrid-Tarragona (January 2006)
Madrid-Málaga(2007)
Madrid-Valladolid(2007)

All lines must be put into service by 2020


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## rab

DaDvD said:


> They're being built to run on these high speed rail lines:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> At the moment, they are in service the following lines:
> Madrid-Sevilla
> Madrid-Lleida
> Madrid-Huesca
> 
> Next Openings:
> Madrid-Toledo (December 2005)
> Madrid-Tarragona (January 2006)
> Madrid-Málaga(2007)
> Madrid-Valladolid(2007)
> 
> All lines must be put into service by 2020



Thanks for the map, it is very helpful.

Maybe my question wasn't clear enough though: Renfe already operates a fleet of TGV - derived AVE trains. Why now is it purchasing both ICE and Talgo/Bombardier trains, which seem to be of very similar broad specification? It seems like a similar situation to an airline deciding to order both Boeing 737s and Airbus 320s at the same time. Would it not have been more economical to order a single larger fleet of Talgo or ICE trains?

Will all fleets work the same routes, or will each fleet have it's own niche (e.g. one fleet to work medium-haul and the other long-haul etc).

Cheers,

Rob.


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## DaDvD

Renfe decided to buy 16 Talgo trains and 16 ICE trains for the new Madrid-Barcelona-French border high speed railway line. Talgo trains, when the line's finished, will stop in every station of the line, and ICE trains will make non-stop connections between Madrid and Barcelona. 
However all the line has got a big delay, it was due to entirely open in 2004, however it opened in October 2003 and only till Lleida with top speeds of 200 kph and with no high speed trains in service.
Talgo trains were delivered along this year and no ICE trains have been delivered yet...however its put into service is imminent. The line's speed will be upgraded to 250 kph in November, and to its top speed (350 kph) presumably in summer 2006.
I'm not quite sure why they decided to buy 50%-50%, but this was a total disaster and they shouldn't repeat it


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## Bahraini Spirit

Nice, I salute spain for its developments.


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## Bahraini Spirit

Great, Spain is really forging ahead.


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## jesarm

thanks DADVD for the map and the info


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## Dans

The duck train it´s damn ugly!!!


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## DaDvD

@ jesarm: ¡De nada!
@ Dans: In my opinion it's so nice :drool: 
another pick:


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## Bitxofo

Dans said:


> The duck train it´s damn ugly!!!


That's just your opinion...
It can be ugly for you, but nowadays is the 2nd fastest train in the world.


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## Bitxofo

Photo of the TALGO "duck" with new RENFE colours:

http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/54932D0C-6AC2-49EF-A2FA-279270405303/14459/0510073.jpg

:wink2:


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## juanpe_r

book your flight!!!!!!!!! is you just go to the airport an take there the ticket it´s about 200€ return!


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## Bitxofo

kub86 said:


> Wow! I'm doing madrid-barcelona in April too! About the flights...so is it a good idea to reserve a seat ahead of time to save money? Or are the costs the same no matter how or where or when you get them? I've seen prices around 30 euros...which is like really cool. So what's the price if I just show up at the airport vs. buying it online or something?


The earlier you book, the cheaper you fly!
:yes:
Madrid-BCN starting at 20 euros, tax included.

Try:
www.vueling.com
www.travelprice.es
www.trabber.es
:wink2:


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## growingup

*A Mag-Lev in Madrid?*

http://www.larazon.es/noticias/noti_mad2858.htm (Spanish)
A Mag-Lev will go through Madrid in ten minutes at 500Km/h.
Madrid’s Regional Government is studying joining the Airport and Alcalá de Henares with Chamartín in a record time. 

Pilar Gómez/ La Razón
MADRID- A train that <<flies>>. That’s the Regional Government President’s dream, Esperanza Aguirre, who, after having put Madrid Metro network among the best three around the world, now plans to bring to Madrid the fastest train in railroad’s history, the Mag-Lev.
The project, which is still in informative studies and pending technical advice, has been rounding through President’s head several years. Actually, since Aguirre travelled to the Chinese city of Shanghai, where the only commercially-operated Mag-Lev is located being able to travel the 30km from downtown to the airport in seven minutes at a speed near to 500km/h.
Madrid goal’s are the same. Studies which are being carried out by the Regional Government aim to stablish some HSLs crossing in diagonal Madrid’s regional map.
ROUTES:
Geographical and technical studies are being carried out right now to evaluate the possibility of a Mag-Lev train that could link Campamento’s zone with Madrid-Barajas Airport in a time that will not surpass ten minutes.
Even more ambitious are the regional plans to build a big Mag-Lev line which could lie parallel to A-2 road and connect Alcalá de Henares y Torrejón with Chamartín station in less than five minutes. This will be a revolution in commuter traffic and mobility in Madrid’s regional area, and specifically in the route already mentioned will eliminate one of the main conflictive traffic spots to access the capital.
In addition to these possible itineraries, a track joining Madrid’s big suburbs in the outskirts is being considered in order to link them in a faster way than the underground offers right now.
Madrid’s metro network enlargement has already reduced travel times a little. However, while the network is getting bigger, it is also getting slower. The regional government argues this is the reason for considering an ultra rapid high tech transport like the Mag-Lev as a complement to the underground system.

...

The article carries on commenting Mag-Lev's technology, benefits and disadvantages, its initial elavated and luxury costs, and other projects around the globe as the one to join Gasgow and London, Munich and its airport or japnese JR-Maglev.


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## Cristovão471

Too cool.


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## Avatar

I am jealous!


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## pflo777

could someone post a map---maybe a fast google earht based sketch, where the line would run?


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## Stifler

pflo777 said:


> could someone post a map---maybe a fast google earht based sketch, where the line would run?


It's too early to have a route as they have just showed their intentions. Anyway, these would be the lines which appear ub the article.

1- Campamento - Barajas Airport
2- Chamartin - Torrejon - Alcala de Henares










A more general map of Madrid metropolitan area










I am surprised with that, and I still don't think it's likely to be built. But when you talk about Madrid... I also thought Metro expansion planned was impossible and they showed I was wrong.


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## cinosanap

There are talks of a Glasgow-Edinburgh maglev as well. 
Very nice way to travel I've heard.


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## SimFox

to build MagLev for a 5min ride? are they kidding?? What sort of acceleration/speed are they talking! the train would have to be tottaly cleaned and deodorized after each run!


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## MasonicStage™

SimFox said:


> to build MagLev for a 5min ride? are they kidding?? What sort of acceleration/speed are they talking! the train would have to be tottaly cleaned and deodorized after each run!


lol :lol:


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## TohrAlkimista

MagLev in Madrid? 


yeah, of course...the same possibilities of the invasion of Aliens...:fiddle:


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## Guest

^^ ^^ pero qué envidiosa es la gente :lol:


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## skytrax

wow!!!


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## TohrAlkimista

frozen said:


> ^^ ^^ pero qué envidiosa es la gente :lol:


aridaje :lol:


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## josema_call

TohrAlkimista said:


> MagLev in Madrid?
> 
> 
> yeah, of course...the same possibilities of the invasion of Aliens...:fiddle:


Drugs don't make anything for your health, stop taking them hno:


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## Skylandman

Guys don´t be cruel and understand him, in some countries, to make something new when it´s about infrastructures, takes decades... if it´s ever done, so from their own experience in their home-countries they may be a bit sceptics. It´s normal.


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## Skylandman

double post


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## Dreamliner

*With all the mayor construction proyects I've seen going on in Spain, I'm not surprised that a Maglev is being considered. I'm not too sure on wether it's practical for the routes they are planning though. Anyway...Que Viva Espana!!! *


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## hkskyline

*Madrid-Barcelona high-speed rail link to open in December: PM *

BARCELONA, Spain, Aug 2, 2007 (AFP) - A high-speed rail link between Madrid and Barcelona, Spain's second-largest city, will open on December 21, Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Thursday. 

"The works are developing at a good rhythm," he told reporters during a visit to Barcelona. 

The high-speed line already connects the Spanish capital to Camp de Tarragona with crews now working to complete the last leg of the line to Barcelona in northeastern Spain. 

The opening of the final leg will cut journey times from Madrid to Barcelona from just over four hours to 2.5 hours. 

There are over 900 flights a week between Madrid and Barcelona, making it the busiest air route in the world according to global travel and transport information company OAG. 

The opening of the high speed rail link between the two cities is expected to cut air traffic on the route. 

A high-speed rail link has operated since April 1992 between Madrid and Seville in southwestern Spain.


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## Rebasepoiss

So the train will be going 350km/h? If so, it's pretty damn fast...


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## Bitxofo

^^That is the top speed the train can reach.
:yes:


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## Reivajar

Really, the objectif has always been link Madrid and Barcelona in 2 hours 30 minutes. It can be get with slower speed, and probably top speed will be used only to avoid delays -I think it happens also in Mediterranean HSL in France with the top speed of 320 kph-.


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## xote

Bitxofo said:


> All young people (under 36y.o.) speak English in BCN or Madrid.


This is NOT true !


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## Cristovão471

Well back in April I did this route, took 4 hours, but felt shorter, because it was so comfortable and the scenery was good. I went in preferent class (1st) Very nice. It's just so wierd to think that the time will practically be cut in half, the annoying part was when it was close to Barcelona, it had to go on suburban rail lines, and there was traffic etc.


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## ^Anton^

Bitxofo said:


> All young people (under 36y.o.) speak English in BCN or Madrid.


That's definitely not true... hehe, I want to encourage people to visit Spain as much as you do, but come on, who were you trying to fool...


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## Bitxofo

^^All young people in Spain studied English at Elemental School, so they are able to speak English.


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## Dreamliner

*I was in Spain last April for 5 weeks. The only people I heard speak english were Americans, Canadians and the British. *


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## Cristovão471

Bitxofo said:


> ^^All young people in Spain studied English at Elemental School, so they are able to speak English.


I studied Japanese in Primary school here, and I hardly speak it.

the very few times I heard english (in spain), was from tourists or some spaniards with strong accents.


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## Mattboy

Bitxofo said:


> ^^All young people in Spain studied English at Elemental School, so they are able to speak English.



hno: Sometimes I think you live in your own little bubble. Please stop saying that, everyone knows it's false, including yourself.


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## clkgtr

*Will Spanish Velaro E speed up to 350km/h?*

Hi,guys
I have read some posts on this forum ,and know the Velaro E is now running at 300km/h in highspeed line. I just wonder if this train will speed up to 350km/h in near future.:cheers:
By far no train is running at 350km/h commercially.Has Siemens or RENFE tested the reliability and durability of the train's equp,like bogies,motors etc. at 350km/h?
And the Velaro E takes 380s to accelerate from 0 to 320km/h.what about 0 to 350km/h,how long will it take?


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## Bitxofo

^^Velaro (made by Siemens) is currently running at 302km/h on the high speed line from Barcelona to Madrid.
:wink2:
It will run at 350km/h in October or November, on the same line.
:yes:


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## Avientu

It won't go faster until ERTMS level 2 is implemented. Although Renfe says it will be in autumn, the team developing the signaling system (people from Renfe, Adif and Siemens) say the don't have a definitve date yet.
Anyway, test trains running on the Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona have already reached 360 km/h.


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## elfabyanos

clkgtr said:


> Hi,guys
> I have read some posts on this forum ,and know the Velaro E is now running at 300km/h in highspeed line. I just wonder if this train will speed up to 350km/h in near future.:cheers:
> By far no train is running at 350km/h commercially.Has Siemens or RENFE tested the reliability and durability of the train's equp,like bogies,motors etc. at 350km/h?
> And the Velaro E takes 380s to accelerate from 0 to 320km/h.what about 0 to 350km/h,how long will it take?


The Velaro has been tested above 400km/h and its record it 408km/h. The bogies are fine for it, but I don't believe the design (for a stable maintenance regime) is ready for more than 330km/h in regular service, though I could be wrong. The main delay is the full implementation of the signalling system as Avientu said above.


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## arriaca

I talked with Siemens engineers who did the tests of the train. They said that ADIF who was forbidden to increase that speed. The train can run more. Even in commercial service. But there are two problems: the signage and the flight of stone


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## clkgtr

The stone on the track is quite a big problem .
So the new track building in our country is just like the picture below,which will make speed higher.







pic copyright to oyzw.


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## Skylandman

Excuse my ignorance but, What´s exactly that "flight of stone" you guys talk about?

thanks in advance

BTW: clkgtr, no pic on display above, just a red cross.


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## elfabyanos

air turbulance causing loose stones to be picked up and thrown at quite dangerous speeds. the new chinese lines don't use loose stone ballast so shouldn't have this problem - everything is solod concrete, which is more expensive in theory.


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## Skylandman

ahh, i see. thanks.


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## arriaca

elfabyanos said:


> air turbulance causing loose stones to be picked up and thrown at quite dangerous speeds. the new chinese lines don't use loose stone ballast so shouldn't have this problem - everything is solod concrete, which is more expensive in theory.


The chinese use the japanese system for high speed, this system was designed in the 80´s


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## Dinivan

Wouldn't the problem be solved with something as easy as covering the stones with a simple net?


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## arriaca

*Suburban trains (Renfe Cercanías)*

*Serie 440*

440












440R (reformada)




























*Serie 446*



















*Serie 447*



















*Serie 450*



















*Serie 451*










*Civia Serie 461 / 462 / 463 / 464 / 465*

463 



















447 versus Civia










*Serie 592*










Atocha Cercanías

The heart of the Madrid suburban trains




























By flickr


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## amagaldu

^^ great work arriaca.. kay:


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## Kuvvaci

:applause: wonderful thread. plase send more infor and photo...


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## arriaca

*Media Distancia*


*Serie 432*










*Serie 444*










*Serie 448R*










*Serie 470*










*Serie 121* (new train, for HSL and conventional lines)










*Serie 449* (new train)











*Serie 592*










*592.201* “El atómico”










*Serie 594* (tilting train)









*
Serie 596* (Motor of 593)










*Serie 598*



















*Serie 599* (new train)









*
444 versus 448*











*592 versus 598*



















Fotos de Flickr


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## Kuvvaci

very impressive photos... kay: please keep posting.


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## arriaca

Ok 

The next will be Larga Distancia


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## Kuvvaci

please don't forget the interrior pix ...


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## arriaca

*Larga Distancia

Talgo trains*

*Serie 2 *










This train is not in use, but is very nice. 

*Serie 3 *

Since 1964






























*Serie 3 RD*

For international service with two gauges












*
Serie 4 *

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges




























*Serie 5 TrenHotel*

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges




















*Serie 6 (Talgo 200)*

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

Max. speed 200 km / h 






















*Serie 6 TrenHotel*

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

Max. speed 200 km / h 










*Serie 7*

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges

Max. speed 200 km / h



















This cars will be all Serie 130










*Serie 7 TrenHotel*

Pendular or natural tilting and two gauges





























Bonus 










Cafeteria. I don´t know the serie










By flickr


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## Kuvvaci

:applause: wonderful representation ... it is very teaching... thank you very much for this wonderful effort.


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## arriaca

*Zaragoza - Delicias Station*























































By Flickr


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## Kuvvaci

super station... could you show the others?


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## arriaca

...


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## arriaca

*Estación de Francia - Barcelona*

















































































































































By Flickr


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## Kuvvaci

is it the main station of Barcelona?


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## JoFMO

No, its Barcelona Francia, "French Station". The main station is Barcelona Sants, a rather ugly underground station.


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## Kuvvaci

why its name is like this, because of its destinations to France?


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## Kuvvaci

I found some pictures of Barcelona Sants... I addtion to this beausetiful thread... *Barcelona Sants* looks like airport


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## amagaldu

Kuvvaci said:


> super station... could you show the others?


to serve.. 

two different stations in Bilbao..

thanks to pampero, Panoramio.. 










thanks to SUECSUECSUEC, flickr..


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## Messi

why did Renfe buy German ICE's?


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## gincan

Argentinian Messi said:


> why did Renfe buy German ICE's?


Not only did they buy German trains but all the HSR lines are built with German technical assistance. Basically all the technical installations are of German origin.


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## arriaca

*Building passengers and the hotel*














































The building actually










By flickr


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## amagaldu

^^ wow..!!

incredible the contrast between the spanish and the french side..


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## Kuvvaci

stunning, abolutelly stunning.. 

why it is not restorated. It is a dimond, I'd like to be there!


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## maño!

la estacion se está reconvirtiendo para albergar un hotel de lujo y es realmente impresionante...
y no hay en las fotos lado frances....todo eso esta en territorio español lo que pasa es que en algunas fotos ya esta tapada la estacion con andamios por el proceso de restauracion y parece otro sitio...

lo mas importante es que la estacion se dignificara todo lo que se merece y ya se han dado pasos desde los gobiernos frances y aragones para poner de nuevo en funcionamiento el paso transfronterizo por el tunel del somport y esta estacion


lo sinto...pero el ingles lo suelo entender...pero escribirlo a mi se me da fatal...


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## arriaca

^^

Ok, I wrote "side french", I tried to say the zone with UIC gauge, when the French trains arrived.


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## sdf11

Some videos of the different kinds of trains in Spain!!

I'll start with Talgo trainsets!! maybe the most famous spanish trains...


Talgo III...This is the Talgo "Miguel de Unamuno"...it runs between Barcelona Sants to Salamanca, Irun and Bilbao...Now runs with the Serie 252 loco at 160kmh apx!














Here, with the 269 loco!








And here with the new diesel loco, serie 334!


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## sdf11

Now, some videos of the Talgo IV...now its replacing some services of the serie III...and also have been replaced by modern trains in other routes...

This video is taked at Pinar de Antequera, near Valladolid, this train did Alicante-Santander service, now a Renfe S130 do this travel!








Another leaving Medina station...


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## sdf11

The Talgo VI, is for me one of the best looking trains in Spain...and maybe the best looking talgos, for me...above the "TrenHotel" with Talgo VI cars...that's beautiful!!


Talgo VI "Marenostrum" from Cartagena to Montpellier (france)...near Barcelona!








Talgo VI "Garcia Lorca" from Lorca to Barcelona near Valencia!








Now its turn for the nice trainhotel!!

Trainhotel "Francisco de Goya" Madrid-Paris - Talgo VI














Trainhotel "Joan Miró" Barcelona-Paris - Talgo VI








Trainhotel A Coruña-Madrid!








Trainhotel "Lusitania" Madrid-Lisboa with the new deliverie for a Talgo VI!








Trainhotel "Antonio Machado" Barcelona-Granada/Malaga!


----------



## Bitxofo

Canfranc station is absolutely stunning!!
:drool::drool:


----------



## arriaca

Thanks sdf11


----------



## Cicerón

Yesterday the last train crossed the city of Burgos. The tracks were there since 1862 , with the trains disturbing the neighbours. A new bypass north of the city was opened. This is how the people celebrated (Yes, we celebrate everything in Spain  ).


----------



## sdf11

jajajajaa!!! Nice videos Ciceron!!! some photos about the new AVE/Conventional Trains Burgos station!! I think that it is very nice!!


----------



## sdf11

One of the Barcelona arrivals...nice foto of Sanlucar-Playa


----------



## Chafford1

Are the Velaros now running at 350km/h on the Madrid - Barcelona line??


----------



## gincan

Chafford1 said:


> Are the Velaros now running at 350km/h on the Madrid - Barcelona line??


No, they have yet to install ERTMS level 2. The only line in Spain that is authorized for 350km/h service is Madrid-Valladolid, although no timetabled service exceed 300km/h yet.


----------



## hans280

^^ Yeah, that makes sense: the line to Valladolid is - until one day it is prolonged toward Galicia, the Basque Country and so on - not long enough to make it worth their while to raise the speed. How much difference would 350 km/h instead of 300 km/h make? You could probably count the minutes saved on one hand.


----------



## test0012

The Chinese CRH3 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRH3 ] is a wider version of Velaro. Both CRH2 (based on Japanese Shinkansen) and CRH3 (based on German ICE) serve the Beijing-Tianjin line [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing-Tianjin_Intercity_Rail ]. 14 trainset are serving the line presently (CRH2-061C to -066C, CRH3-001C, 002A, 004A, 005C, 006C, and recently 007C and 008C) The line was opened on August 1. They claimed its operational speed is 350 km/h, and I saw it ran at up to 352 km/h on the first ten days. According to my GPS, it started to slow down to a maximum speed of 340 km/h from August 11, and now seems at a maximum speed of 335 km/h. I take this train almost every day and have about one hundred GPS records. I can post them somewhere if anyone is interested in the records.

(They line was suffered from a bad snow in mid-December, and trains slowed down to 290 km/h on the following two days, but trains were only 2 minutes late, so 300 km/h or 350 km/h seems make very little difference in travel time)


----------



## AdamChobits

^^ Interesting.


By the way, what a nice pics in this thread


----------



## SimFox

I've been few times on the Tianjin-Beijin line and personally noticed top speed (on teh display in the trains (both Velaro CN and Kawasaki) of 349 km/h.
One thing you have to take into consideration is that during morning rush hour the interval between trains running at such a brake neck speed could be as short as 6 minutes!!!
All-in-all Beijing-Tianjin line is currently fastest in the world. At this speed ride is extremely smooth and quiet. Much more so than Maglev one in Shanghai.
Comparing two I see the reason why highspeed line between Beijing and Shanghai at teh end had been built with conventional rail technology.


----------



## antovador

So ERTMS II not started yet but slowly they already prepare to upgrade to 380 kmh with the future Talgo AVRIL.

http://www.altavelocidad.org/tecnica/515-lo-nuevo-de-talgo-se-llama-avril
in spanish 
http://www.elperiodico.com/EDICION/ED081005/CAS/CARP01/PDF/g024mR99.PDF

Look for more sources to see veracity
Wait and see


----------



## Federicoft

380 kmh is impressive, but given that aerodynamic drag and energy consumption are proportional to square of speed I wonder if that would be profitable.


----------



## sotavento

1- In china they seem to use both the german and the japanese concrete trackbed systems 

2- Renfe doesn't need to rush the operations at 350km/h precisely because of the same question that the chinese are facing ... go too fast all the way and you have a great time to "kill" at the end of the journey. :cheers:


----------



## hans280

Federicoft said:


> 380 kmh is impressive, but given that aerodynamic drag and energy consumption are proportional to square of speed I wonder if that would be profitable.


My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.


----------



## Chafford1

hans280 said:


> My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.


Interesting that although the Chinese are aiming for 370 km/h for future high speed lines,the more experienced Japanese have decided to limit the production version of the Fastech 360 to 320km/h.


----------



## clkgtr

Chafford1 said:


> Interesting that although the Chinese are aiming for 370 km/h for future high speed lines,the more experienced Japanese have decided to limit the production version of the Fastech 360 to 320km/h.


The main reason to limit Fastech 360 to 320kph is the noise level.
But in China ,this is not as strict as in Japan.The distance between Beijing and Shanghai is 1318km,in order to control the travel time less than 4 hours including some intermediate stops,it is necessary to speed up to 380kph,so that highspeed train can compete with air planes.


----------



## Tri-ring

hans280 said:


> My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.


Although energy consumption is a big factor, there is also heat build up to consider.
It's like CPU's in your PC, the more energy you feed into your PC to overclock, heat builds up within the CPU due to resistance resulting to frying itself. 
The Fastech 360 already utilizing water shielding to cool the motors. 
Other options are to freeze the machine, develop superconductors as stronger magnets or both which is what Japan is doing right now to develop maglevs. 
From these points I believe conventional rail has reached it's technological potential.


----------



## 33Hz

If going from 300km/h to 350km/h makes the service unprofitable, how do airlines make any money?

People said the same thing about going to 200, 250 and 300km/h. This is no different.


----------



## disturbman

Airplanes and trains are totaly different, you cannot compare them like that. It's just kind of stupid to do so.

And, as a matter of fact, Airlines have a hard time to make money. The % of profit is very small in this business in general.


----------



## CharlieP

Screw 350 km/h - 360 km/h is a far, far nicer number (100 m/s)


----------



## sotavento

hans280 said:


> My thought exactly. 350 km/h is already stretching it: by raising the speed from 300 to 350 km/h you increase energy consumption by about a third. I have the impression that these increases in top speed are largely pending technological advances. By this I mean, whenever the development of new materials, etc. would allow, in principle, a lowering of the energy consumption the HS operators jump on the opportunity to raise the top speed instead.


If 350km/h is "stretching" it too far what would you call to a maglev as "over 350" or even a plane ???

if HSR at 350 or above is costly what alternative do you porpose to it ??? :lol:


----------



## Kuvvaci

please post new photos.


----------



## arriaca

*Estación de Chamartín - Madrid*

Madrid have two main stations Atocha and Chamartin. Chamartin was built on the twentieth century to supplied the Estación del Norte. 

Actually is the main station for the trains to the north and northwest. And is the terminal station of the HSL Madrid - Valladolid

*
1968*










*The same station, another trains *










*
Actually*























































*
The Duck and the little duck on the UIC gauge tracks*










*Suburban trains on Chamartin*

*http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3279/3047870552_42a1647556_o.jpg*










*Chamartin Metro Station*


----------



## bule

*HSL Málaga-Barcelona (Spain)*

Málaga-Barcelona in Ave-S-102 Talgo-Bombardier. Stop in 6 new Stations.AntequeraSta.Ana.Puente Genil.Cordoba.Zaragoza.Lerida,Tarragona and finaly Barcelona, 5,20h.for 1.137 kilometer.Very confortable and c 

Mälaga Station Maria Zambrano.


----------



## bule

]Málaga-Barcelona in Ave-S-102 Talgo-Bombardier. Stop in 6 new Stations.AntequeraSta.Ana.Puente Genil.Cordoba.Zaragoza.Lerida,Tarragona and finaly Barcelona, 5,20h.for 1.137 kilometer.Very confortable and c 

Mälaga Station Maria Zambrano.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## bule

bule said:


> ]Málaga-Barcelona in Ave-S-102 Talgo-Bombardier. Stop in 6 new Stations.AntequeraSta.Ana.Puente Genil.Cordoba.Zaragoza.Lerida,Tarragona and finaly Barcelona, 5,20h.for 1.137 kilometer.Very confortable and c
> 
> Mälaga Station Maria Zambrano.



[/QUOTE]


----------



## bule

HSL Málaga-Barcelona.
Barcelona-Sans Station


----------



## JoKo65

Velaro E aka S-103 is really a beauty.


----------



## pcrail

Mayb bule like this panorama version of his pics.


----------



## hoosier

Do you have to go through Madrid on the Malaga-Barcelona route?


----------



## Onkel Beto

hoosier said:


> Do you have to go through Madrid on the Malaga-Barcelona route?


Not anymore!
There is a recently opened by-pass outside Madrid now. It´s aprox. 5 km long and is a direct connection between the Mad-Bar and the Mad-Mal/Sev lines. So trains between the Northeast and the South of the country needn´t drive into Atocha station anymore. That means less allover distance and, especially, less time. 
As said in this thread, the full distance between Barcelona and Malaga / Sevilla is over 1100 kms and takes about 5 hours and a half. But imagine how travel times will be cut when speed 350 km/h is achieved in the future on many long flat stretches of the route!


----------



## Marek.kvackaj

nice
put also here some information...e.g.:lengt,cost,plan for future projects...etc..


----------



## hoosier

Onkel Beto said:


> Not anymore!
> There is a recently opened by-pass outside Madrid now. It´s aprox. 5 km long and is a direct connection between the Mad-Bar and the Mad-Mal/Sev lines. So trains between the Northeast and the South of the country needn´t drive into Atocha station anymore. That means less allover distance and, especially, less time.
> As said in this thread, the full distance between Barcelona and Malaga / Sevilla is over 1100 kms and takes about 5 hours and a half. But imagine how travel times will be cut when speed 350 km/h is achieved in the future on many long flat stretches of the route!


Oh, that is great news! I hadn't heard about the Madrid bypass. How fast do AVE trains travel on the Malaga-Barcelona route now?


----------



## bule

I´ve travel Málaga-Barcelona and way back 3 times,in AVE-S-102 Talgo. 
It stops in 6 news Stations. Antequera,PuenteGenil.Cordoba,Zaragoza,Lerida.Tarragona and finally Barcelona.It Takes from 5,15 to 5,30 houres for 1.137 Kilometer.I´ve paid 90E one way in Club class,including launch,wine and cofee.


----------



## hoosier

bule said:


> I´ve travel Málaga-Barcelona and way back 3 times,in AVE-S-102 Talgo.
> It stops in 6 news Stations. Antequera,PuenteGenil.Cordoba,Zaragoza,Lerida.Tarragona and finally Barcelona.It Takes from 5,15 to 5,30 houres for 1.137 Kilometer.I´ve paid 90E one way in Club class,including launch,wine and cofee.


That sounds like a pretty good deal.


----------



## MarkO

*MAXIMUM EXTENT*

...


----------



## MarkO

*MAXIMUM EXTENT OF SPANISH RAILWAYS*

Does anyone know of any figures for the route length of all railways when they were at their peak?

Don't know if this would have been in the 1920s or maybe after WW2 but keen to hear from any RENFE/Spanish rail fans who might know the approximate figure??

Cheers,

Mark

_PS Just done a quick count up of 15,492km according to an old railway Directory Year Book (including the FEVEs and industrial lines but not the Metro's/trams) circa mid 1970's - sound about right? Or were there thousands more km shut before that? _


----------



## arriaca

^^

Ok You can do a search with google like this

http://www.google.es/search?q=evolu...s=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&client=firefox-a

I found this document http://indicadores-movilidad.racc.es/uploads/20090217/EVOLUCION_RED_FERROVIARIA_ESPANYA.pdf



Code:


Año    Vía ancha    Vía estrecha      Total
1959    13.444          4.695           18.139
1984    13.590          2.192           15.782
1985    12.710          2.292           15.002
2007    13.368          2.191           15.559


----------



## Jay

*Scary train crash in Spain between 80+ tonne mining truck and high speed train*

Sadly two people were killed (I think the truck driver may have been one I'm not sure) 

but I gotta say this train held together really well (for hitting such an absolutely (loaded) enormous machine), It's good to see europe is building better and tougher trains. 
















































Article 
http://www.elperiodicoextremadura.com/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=530775&page=2


----------



## HyperMiler

Jay said:


> It's good to see europe is building better and tougher trains.


You can thank UIC crashworthiness standard for this. 

Likewise, the lowest crashworthiness standard the US HSR projects should accept is UIC. Shinkansen's positive traffic control won't do you any good in an accident like this.


----------



## Gadiri

> *El choque de un tren y un camión junto a Carmonita deja dos muertos y 10 heridos*​
> *Los fallecidos son el conductor del camión, de 25 años, y una pasajera de 19 años,* ambos vecinos de Mérida.Se investiga por qué el camionero cruzó un paso a nivel que debía estar cerrado desde que el tren dejó Cáceres.
> 
> 07/09/2010
> 
> Uno de los vagones dañados tras el choque del tren con el camión dumper, con varios bomberos.
> 
> Eran las 12.30 horas de ayer. Eduardo Durán Cidoncha, de 25 años, se disponía, como hace habitualmente, a echar a un vertedero la carga del camión dumper que conducía procedente de las obras del tren de alta velocidad entre Cáceres y Mérida a la altura de la localidad de Carmonita. Para ello, tiene que cruzar la vía del tren que une Madrid con la capital extremeña en este punto y, por circunstancias que se están investigando, lo hace justo en el instante en que pasaba el tren modelo 598 que* había salido 45 minutos antes de Cáceres y debía llegar a Mérida un cuarto de hora después*. *El impacto es brutal y el camión, tras ser levantado, golpea, rebotando, diversas zonas del tren, y queda suspendido por la parte delantera a mitad del convoy*. *Dentro del tren iba Olga Núñez del Viejo, una joven de 19 años, que fallece en el accidente, al igual que el conductor del camión, ambos residentes en Mérida*.
> 
> El suceso deja *con heridas más graves al maquinista y nueve heridos más de diversa consideración, entre ellos dos hermanos de 3 y 7 años*. Al cierre de esta información, tres estaban ingresados en hospitales de Mérida y Cáceres, y el pequeño de 3 años fue trasladado grave a Salamanca tras ser operado en Caceres.
> 
> *Ahora, Renfe, Adif y el Ministerio de Fomento investigan por qué pudo cruzar la vía el camión*. Según ha podido saber EL PERIODICO, hay un paso a nivel en ese lugar que tenía que estar cerrado desde que el tren salió de Cáceres y hasta que llegara a la siguiente estación, pero lo cierto es que el conductor, de una empresa subcontratada por Sacyr (la encargada de las obras), atravesó la vía. Ese paso a nivel tiene que estar controlado por un piloto de seguridad, una persona encargada de vigilar que ese paso a nivel esté abierto y cerrado cuando corresponda, y que estaba en su puesto en el momento del accidente. Esa persona pertenece a una empresa de seguridad contratada por Sacyr para esta tarea.
> 
> En el tramo del accidente,* el tren tiene limitada la velocidad a 100 kilómetros por hora,* y, a la espera de que la investigación siga su curso, todo apunta a que el maquinista respetó ese límite.
> 
> La joven fallecida estudiaba Magisterio en Cáceres y vivía en la urbanización Proserpina de la capital extremeña; mientras que el joven conductor del camión residía en la calle Comarca de Las Hurdes, en las cercanías de la Academia de la Guardia Civil de Tráfico, también de Mérida, estaba casado y tenía un hijo de poco más de un año.
> 
> 
> ESTADO DE LOS HERIDOS Respecto a los heridos, al cierre de esta información, cuatro continuaban ingresados, uno de ellos, el niño de 3 años, V.M.M, fue trasladado a una UCI pediátrica de Salamanca tras ser operado en Cáceres del trauma abdominal sufrido en el accidente, y tras haber perdido mucha sangre. Su hermano de 7 años, con una contusión en la barbilla, y una abuela también seguían ayer ingresados, esta última, de 64 años, tiene una contusión torácica, está estable y con pronóstico reservado. El otro herido ingresado es el maquinista, R.V.G, de 53 años, con una contusión dorsal, que está consciente y se recupera en el hospital de Mérida.
> 
> Entre los diez heridos, estaba también la madre de los pequeños, de 39 años, que fue dada de alta, al igual que otras cinco personas más, con heridas leves.
> 
> Hasta que se averigüen las causas del suceso, Adif reiteró ayer que el accidente se ha producido en un paso a nivel de obra que está "autorizado" por el Ministerio de Fomento tal y como establece el protocolo de seguridad para estos casos. Adif y Renfe resaltaron que han activado los "protocolos de seguridad establecidos para estos casos" dando aviso a los servicios de protección civil y asistencias sanitarias. Además, han abierto una investigación para determinar las causas últimas del suceso e insisten en que el incidente "no tiene que incidir en los trabajos de la línea del AVE" ante un hipotético retrasos de las obras en este lugar.
> 
> Estas obras del AVE las realiza Sacyr con un presupuesto de 46,92 millones de euros. Se trata de la construcción de plataforma del subtramo Aldea del Cano-Mérida, de 16,96 kilómetros de longitud que discurren por los términos municipales de Cáceres, y Carmonita y Mérida, en la provincia de Badajoz. El contrato incluye, como elementos singulares, la construcción de viaductos sobre el ferrocarril Aljucén-Cáceres, de 25 metros de longitud, y sobre el Arroyo Valdeconde, de 74 metros de longitud. Además, también contempla la ejecución del túnel de Puerto Viejo, de un kilómetro.
> 
> Hasta el lugar del suceso se desplazaron más de una decena de ambulancias, numerosos efectivos de bomberos, la Guardia Civil y de Cruz Roja, cuyos psicólogos trataron a familiares de las víctimas que se acercaron a la zona, entre ellos los padres de la joven fallecida, un profesor de dibujo del instituto Santa Eulalia y una maestra y conocida miembros de la organización ecologista Adenex.
> 
> 
> CONDOLENCIAS También estuvieron presentes la delegada del Gobierno, Carmen Pereira, el presidente de la Junta de Extremadura, Guillermo Fernández Vara, que lamentó el "desgraciado accidente" en unas obras que son "para el desarrollo, el progreso y la prosperidad"; además de los presidentes de Renfe, Teófilo Serrano; y el de Adif, Antonio González.
> 
> En el escenario de los hechos, el alcalde de Carmonita, Agustín Guerrero Lima, ha aprovechado para reclamar una alternativa para el paso de estos camiones de gran tonelaje en las obras del AVE por las calles del municipio, por el "peligro" que supone para los vecinos.
> 
> La línea ferroviaria afectada se mantenía anoche interrumpida y se ha establecido un Plan de Transporte Alternativo por carretera entre *Cáceres y Mérida.*


http://www.elperiodicoextremadura.com/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=530775&page=2

*Train speed : 100 km/h
2 dies : the truck driver and a 19 years old young man in the train.
9 people seriously hurt : including train driver*


----------



## SamuraiBlue

HyperMiler said:


> You can thank UIC crashworthiness standard for this.
> 
> Likewise, the lowest crashworthiness standard the US HSR projects should accept is UIC. Shinkansen's positive traffic control won't do you any good in an accident like this.


There will not be an accident like this if the tracks were fenced in the first place. hno:


----------



## Jay

HyperMiler said:


> You can thank UIC crashworthiness standard for this.
> 
> Likewise, the lowest crashworthiness standard the US HSR projects should accept is UIC. Shinkansen's positive traffic control won't do you any good in an accident like this.



You trying to say a shinkansen train wouldn't hold up this well in this type of collision? I thought they were constructed pretty similarly, of very light but strong metal.


----------



## HyperMiler

Jay said:


> You trying to say a shinkansen train wouldn't hold up this well in this type of collision?


Nope. A Shinkansen train car is half as strong as a European-style train car. 



> I thought they were constructed pretty similarly, of very light but strong metal.


There is no difference between Japanese and Europeans in material selection. European trains are built out of thicker aluminum to increase strength.

Koreans are now the market leader in high speed train construction; their next model due out in 2012 is made out of composite and features a Shinkansen-level axle load while featuring 430 km/hr speed limit and UIC-compliant crashworthiness.


----------



## Jay

HyperMiler said:


> Nope. A Shinkansen train car is half as strong as a European-style train car.
> 
> 
> There is no difference between Japanese and Europeans in material selection. European trains are built out of thicker aluminum to increase strength.


Half as strong? Euro cars generally fluctuate between 40 and 60 tons for single level coaches (some bi level cars can get really heavy), a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.

Would really like to see your source on that.


----------



## Oponopono

Gentlemen, please hold your horses. Neither this is an high-speed train nor the line is an high speed line. All high speed lines in Spain are fenced, of course.

The train is a Renfe Class 598 which was operating a Regional service from Madrid - Atocha Cercanías to Merida via Caceres. It is a diesel multiple unit with a maximum speed of 160km/h. The line where the accident happened is the conventional line from Caceres to Merida. Ironically, the truck was part of the construction of the high speed line which will exist here from 2013.


----------



## maldini

Jay said:


> Half as strong? Euro cars generally fluctuate between 40 and 60 tons for single level coaches (some bi level cars can get really heavy), a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.
> 
> Would really like to see your source on that.


As usual he does not have any source to back up his wild claims at all. The nationalist's point is that Korean trains are better than Chinese and Japanese trains. But he has never looked at the design of any highspeed trains, whether it is Chinese, Japanese or Korean.


----------



## Svartmetall

Jay said:


> Half as strong? Euro cars generally fluctuate between 40 and 60 tons for single level coaches (some bi level cars can get really heavy), a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.
> 
> Would really like to see your source on that.


Again, Jay, I have to say to you that weight does not equal strength!!! There is no guarantee just because something is of a similar or greater weight that it is stronger.


----------



## Jay

Svartmetall said:


> Again, Jay, I have to say to you that weight does not equal strength!!! There is no guarantee just because something is of a similar or greater weight that it is stronger.


I totally agree, I wasn't really trying to get at that but I believe the perfect crashworthiness comes from a combination of decent weight and design (Not too light, nor too heavy) 

I was saying that this train performed pretty well in such a grizzly collision. That truck was loaded, the payload being somewhere around 80 tons I believe, this train would have been better off hitting a large tank.


----------



## Coccodrillo

SamuraiBlue said:


> There will not be an accident like this if the tracks were fenced in the first place. hno:





Oponopono said:


> Gentlemen, please hold your horses. Neither this is an high-speed train nor the line is an high speed line. All high speed lines in Spain are fenced, of course.
> 
> The train is a Renfe Class 598 which was operating a Regional service from Madrid - Atocha Cercanías to Merida via Caceres. It is a diesel multiple unit with a maximum speed of 160km/h. The line where the accident happened is the conventional line from Caceres to Merida. Ironically, the truck was part of the construction of the high speed line which will exist here from 2013.


This line has no more than 10 trains per day (in both directions), this may be the reason of distraction of the truck driver. The less trains pass on a line, the less one think to watch if one is passing.


----------



## MarcVD

SamuraiBlue said:


> There will not be an accident like this if the tracks were fenced in the first place. hno:


First of all, If I interpret correctly the pictures I have seen, the
collision occured at a level-crossing so fences are irrelevant...

And also, with such a monster truck involved, fencing link what is
commonly used along high-speed lines in Europe would have been
tiotally useless. You would need a two-feet-thick concrete wall
to retain such a beast, at least.


----------



## Coccodrillo

It was a temporary level crossing built only to ease the works of the HSL. I suppose there wasn't even a simple flashing light activated by approaching trains...


----------



## HyperMiler

Jay said:


> a shinkansen car is about the same dimensions with a 45 tonne tare weight. Those Renfe cars involved were about 50-55 tons a piece, so not a huge difference.


1. Shinkansen cars are much larger than Euro cars, yet they are lighter.
2. That extra weight of Renfe went into structural reinforcement, and this is why Euro-style cars are heavier than Shinkansen cars.



> Would really like to see your source on that.











Kawasaki was dead wrong on this.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

HyperMiler said:


> 1. Shinkansen cars are much larger than Euro cars, yet they are lighter.
> 2. That extra weight of Renfe went into structural reinforcement, and this is why Euro-style cars are heavier than Shinkansen cars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kawasaki was dead wrong on this.


Nope Kawasaki was accurate since as you seen in the bottom of the chart it says "Fully Dedicated Tracks" meaning there should be no level crossing whatsoever.


----------



## HyperMiler

SamuraiBlue said:


> Nope Kawasaki was accurate since as you seen in the bottom of the chart it says "Fully Dedicated Tracks" meaning there should be no level crossing whatsoever.


Good luck trying to sell Shinkansen in the US then since no one's building fully dedicated tracks with a single exception of Florida.


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## Jay

Wow, never realized how poorly japanese trains were constructed. I still imagine a shinkansen train would do alright in a collision though, they just seem well engineered yet I might be just completely making that up or imagining it. 


Eliminating level crossings is not going to help this kind of situation very much, buses and and trucks are not nearly as big of a threat to a speeding train than heavy construction vehicles like this one, which will not crash with the train at a level crossing yet in a completely random spot. 


New Chinese and Korean trains (and european ones) are being built very heavy. (The new 16 car zefiro weighs 934 tonnes) The new 10 car sapsan is 670 tonnes and the ETR in italy is about 60 tonnes a car. (all single level).. also most intercity coaches that are new weigh in the 50 tonne range as opposed to the way older 35 to 40 tonne range.. Good to see 
people are catching on. 

I'm not saying weight is the ONLY factor in making a safe train but you need to compromise. I agree that the acela may be a bit too heavy, especially with those massive power cars.


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## SamuraiBlue

Jay said:


> Wow, never realized how poorly japanese trains were constructed. I still imagine a shinkansen train would do alright in a collision though, they just seem well engineered yet I might be just completely making that up or imagining it.
> 
> 
> Eliminating level crossings is not going to help this kind of situation very much, buses and and trucks are not nearly as big of a threat to a speeding train than heavy construction vehicles like this one, which will not crash with the train at a level crossing yet in a completely random spot.


Even in situation where tracks are near construction site precautionary measures should be initiated such as developing a cross section(whether it be at level or tunnel/bridge) with minimum interference in operation.
There is no excuse when accidents happens and lives are lost. 
Japanese philosophy is NO accident occurrence are safer then safety measures implied when accidents occurs.


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## Jay

SamuraiBlue said:


> Even in situation where tracks are near construction site precautionary measures should be initiated such as developing a cross section(whether it be at level or tunnel/bridge) with minimum interference in operation.
> There is no excuse when accidents happens and lives are lost.
> Japanese philosophy is NO accident occurrence are safer then safety measures implied when accidents occurs.



Even if those precautions are taken accidents can still occur, whether between two trains or from random objects that seem to roll on the tracks which actually happens for some reason. It's absurd to take no safety precautions while constructing the train. 

accidents are going to happen, always, it's kind of like crime, it is inevitable, where there are people it will exist. Same as with vehicles, they will crash.. Look at the maglev that crashed, never thought that would have happened but it did. 

Build safer trains, it's the only way to prevent deaths. If you try and prevent accidents, some, maybe not as many but some will still happen, the train moves, so it can and eventually will crash into something.


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## pietje01

Jay said:


> Even if those precautions are taken accidents can still occur, whether between two trains or from random objects that seem to roll on the tracks which actually happens for some reason. It's absurd to take no safety precautions while constructing the train.
> 
> accidents are going to happen, always, it's kind of like crime, it is inevitable, where there are people it will exist. Same as with vehicles, they will crash.. Look at the maglev that crashed, never thought that would have happened but it did.
> 
> Build safer trains, it's the only way to prevent deaths. If you try and prevent accidents, some, maybe not as many but some will still happen, the train moves, so it can and eventually will crash into something.


If they took the prevention of accidents seriously in Spain by not using level crossings, then this accident wouldn't have happened and noone would've been killed. So the Japanese approach is correct: avoid accidents at any cost and then you can use much lighter trains. Mind you that heavier trainsets also have disadvantages when accidents occur, due to the higer kinetic energy.

Also we're comparing HS trainsets and HSL's, but this accident wasn't a HS trainset nor was it on a HSL, so everything told here is not applicable to this accident.


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## Jay

^Yes I agree but that wasn't exactly my point.. I'm saying that even if you DO eliminate level crossings these crashes still happen. There have been several instinces where large machines near the tracks somehow fall down hills and into the way of the train (this actually happens more often than you might think.. why? I don't know) Or just look at the example with the transrapid maglev. Or just if the train derails in general the cars should not just crush each other. 

Obviously yes you are right about the kinetic energy, that's why I'm saying that there should be a balance between weight and design. But that is only true when it is between two trains generally. The extra weight on certain trains just makes it worse for the other vehicle... which we shouldn't really care about because they had a death wish going in front of a train anyway. Cars that rip open are not safe (again I'm not referring to this train) and it really is not that difficult or expensive to build them better.


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## Coccodrillo

pietje01 said:


> If they took the prevention of accidents seriously in Spain by not using level crossings, then this accident wouldn't have happened and noone would've been killed.


This accident happened on a temporary railway crossing built to ease the works of the new HSL, so an underpass was considered a waste of money. The existing railway has 10 trains per day, and maybe decided that lights and barriers would be useless for a such crossing, and this may have been a cause of the accident.

It is economcally impossible to replace with bridges all crossings with 100 cars and 10 trains per day.


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## pietje01

Coccodrillo said:


> This accident happened on a temporary railway crossing built to ease the works of the new HSL, so an underpass was considered a waste of money. The existing railway has 10 trains per day, and maybe decided that lights and barriers would be useless for a such crossing, and this may have been a cause of the accident.
> 
> It is economcally impossible to replace with bridges all crossings with 100 cars and 10 trains per day.


I know that my choice of words wasn't very good, but I was reacting to the point that the avoidance of collisions they do in Japan wouldn't be sufficient. Of course they do take it seriously in Spain, but not to the extent the do in Japan, so it's not that silly of them to use lighter trains.

You have to admit that they could have done more in Spain tot prevent this accident, but they thought is was unnecessary. They were proved wrong.


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## Coccodrillo

^^ yes, a system warning the aprpoach of a train would have avoided the accident (I don't know if there was one, that the truck driver did not respect)


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## Jay

Train passengers ahould never EVER have to pay for a truck driver's stupitidy and carelessness.


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## SamuraiBlue

Jay said:


> ^Yes I agree but that wasn't exactly my point.. I'm saying that even if you DO eliminate level crossings these crashes still happen. There have been several instinces where large machines near the tracks somehow fall down hills and into the way of the train (this actually happens more often than you might think.. why? I don't know) Or just look at the example with the transrapid maglev. Or just if the train derails in general the cars should not just crush each other.
> 
> Obviously yes you are right about the kinetic energy, that's why I'm saying that there should be a balance between weight and design. But that is only true when it is between two trains generally. The extra weight on certain trains just makes it worse for the other vehicle... which we shouldn't really care about because they had a death wish going in front of a train anyway. Cars that rip open are not safe (again I'm not referring to this train) and it really is not that difficult or expensive to build them better.


I believe the Shinkansen's on going record of zero fatality through an accident for 40 years is a testament to it's safety.
Various safety devices such as ATS,ATC and other various automated control device makes it virtually impossible for an accident like the transrapid collision to happen.

As for a situation like the above, Japanese construction companies will first fence off the tracks with temporary self-standing fences and create at level crossing section with non intrusion bars and signaling devices to notify and stop traffic when train is approaching. (I believe there are also protocols for how much advance notice is required for these signals based on speed)
Construction companies has kits to set up and/or dismantle to the next construction site when needed.


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## Suburbanist

*Spain cuts high speed 'ghost train'*

The Telegraph

The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.

But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.

"From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.

"Renfe feels the pain when we transport only steel," he said referring to the fact that only nine passengers on average used the route daily.

Instead passengers will have to change trains in Madrid, from which high-speed trains are already operating to the biggest three cities of Castilla-La Mancha. The journey time would increase from two hours and five minutes between Toledo and Albacete to two hours and 28 minutes.

The failed route, which costs 18,000 euros (£16,000) a day to operate, is one of a series of infrastructure "white elephants" that have sprung up in recent years across the Spanish landscape.

Castellon Airport, built at a cost of 150 million euros (£134 million) and inaugurated in March, has yet to receive its first scheduled flight. Mile upon mile of empty toll roads are running at a loss.

A large part of austerity measures introduced by the socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriquez has been to drastically shrink public spending on infrastructure that burgeoned out of control during the country's boom years and sent its borrowing costs soaring as the economic crisis hit.

Since Spain opened its first bullet train connection between Madrid and Seville in 1992 it has become the operator of the largest high-speed network in Europe with more than 1,700 miles of track.


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## urbanfan89

^^ So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.


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## Suburbanist

urbanfan89 said:


> ^^ So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.


I think the article is not making an assessment on high-speed rail as a whole, neither am I. It is just a problem with a specific service that maybe implied the construction of a new flyover.


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## 437.001

This article is biased as it talks aboute a "route" from Albacete to Toledo as if it were something isolated, which it isn´t at all.

It does not mention, not a single time, that those trains stopped at Madrid-Atocha station.

They carried many more passengers than that, although the line was considered a failure just on the Madrid-Toledo part of the line, and this is the reason why these trains have been stopped.

By the way it was just a test to see how it worked, it just didn´t as the line´s not finished yet.

The problem with these trains is that the Madrid-Toledo line is used by the much more cheaper Avant trains, obviously preferred by the vast majority of the passengers because they´re cheaper.

The Madrid to Cuenca and Albacete part will simply carry on, the thing is that that route is not finished yet, that´s the Alicante route, scheduled to open in 2012.

Besides, that´s a British newspaper cut´n´pasting an equally biased Spanish article, which is about the same as saying the article is classical tabloid-like, absolutely biased no-insight utter rubbish, as usual for the British press, needless to say.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

437.001 said:


> This article is biased as it talks aboute a "route" from Albacete to Toledo as if it were something isolated, which it isn´t at all.
> 
> It does not mention, not a single time, that those trains stopped at Madrid-Atocha station.
> 
> They carried many more passengers than that, although the line was considered a failure just on the Madrid-Toledo part of the line, and this is the reason why these thains have been stopped.
> 
> By the way it was just a test to see how it worked, it just didn´t as the line´s not finished yet.
> 
> The problem with these trains is that the Madrid-Toledo line is used by the much more cheaper Avant trains, obviously preferred by the vast majority of the passengers because they´re cheaper.
> 
> The Madrid to Cuenca and Albacete part will simply carry on, the thing is that that route is not finished yet, that´s the Alicante route, scheduled to open in 2012.
> 
> Besides, that´s a British newspaper cut´n´pasting an equally biased Spanish article, which is about the same as saying the article is classical tabloid-like, absolutely biased no-insight utter rubbish, as usual for the British press, needless to say.


Estoy 100% contigo! It is what they want to read about us _PIGS_. 'Spending their money on wasteful infrastructure.' Both AVE lines are relatively succesful on their own (LAV Levante and LAV Toledo) are they not?


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## Coccodrillo

Compared to French lines, they aren't...


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Compared to French lines, they aren't...


With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.

I fully understand that a HST ticket must be more expensive due to the cost of maintenance and construction of the infrastructure, but if Renfe prefers to see emptier trains than crowded trains like in France, then it obviously is Renfe´s fault and Renfe´s choice, not people´s.


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## Suburbanist

437.001 said:


> With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.
> 
> I fully understand that a HST ticket must be more expensive due to the cost of maintenance and construction of the infrastructure, but if Renfe prefers to see emptier trains than crowded trains like in France, then it obviously is Renfe´s fault and Renfe´s choice, not people´s.


Depending on how the preferences of costumers play in, when aggregated, it might be well the case that Renfe can still maximize its operational financial result carrying less people paying much higher fares. But it is a mere hypothesis, without hard data it is difficult to evaluate that. Theoretically, it may be (again, hypothesis) the case that to boost ridership significantly would mean slashing fares to a point where the increased ridership wouldn't bring enough revenue to make up the reduced fares. Sure, if you start charging € 25 for advanced purchased tickets Madrid P. Atocha to Barcelona Saints, you will see the ridership explode within one week. I guess that had been the case in some promotional fares Renfe puts on from time to time. 

Spain also has strong competition from intercity buses, which are very uncommon in France, compared to Spain.


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> With those fares and especially the lack of flexibility of these fares, anyone can understand why the HST trains aren´t more crowded, and that´s not people´s fault, it´s Renfe´s.


I know, I know... :bash: 

With a sort of long distance "Avant" (low cost, no frills) trains would be full and taxpayer's money better used.


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Depending on how the preferences of costumers play in, when aggregated, it might be well the case that Renfe can still maximize its operational financial result carrying less people paying much higher fares. But it is a mere hypothesis, without hard data it is difficult to evaluate that. Theoretically, it may be (again, hypothesis) the case that to boost ridership significantly would mean slashing fares to a point where the increased ridership wouldn't bring enough revenue to make up the reduced fares.


Right you are.



> *Sure, if you start charging € 25 for advanced purchased tickets Madrid P. Atocha to Barcelona Saints, you will see the ridership explode within one week. I guess that had been the case in some promotional fares Renfe puts on from time to time*.


The problem is that Renfe should be able to offer many more reduced fare tickets than it does. They seem to prefer to carry less passengers, to target a posh population, rather than just carrying more passengers for about the same amount of money. 

We Spaniards all wonder why they do that, we believe it´s non-sense. 



> Spain also has strong competition from intercity buses, which are very uncommon in France, compared to Spain.


True, but only to a certain extent.
There´s routes in which the bus is simply not worth it, or it carries too few passengers to be a real alternative to plane, HST or car.


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## arriaca

Suburbanist said:


> The Telegraph
> 
> The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.
> 
> But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.
> 
> "From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.
> 
> "Renfe feels the pain when we transport only steel," he said referring to the fact that only nine passengers on average used the route daily.
> 
> Instead passengers will have to change trains in Madrid, from which high-speed trains are already operating to the biggest three cities of Castilla-La Mancha. The journey time would increase from two hours and five minutes between Toledo and Albacete to two hours and 28 minutes.
> 
> The failed route, which costs 18,000 euros (£16,000) a day to operate, is one of a series of infrastructure "white elephants" that have sprung up in recent years across the Spanish landscape.
> 
> Castellon Airport, built at a cost of 150 million euros (£134 million) and inaugurated in March, has yet to receive its first scheduled flight. Mile upon mile of empty toll roads are running at a loss.
> 
> A large part of austerity measures introduced by the socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriquez has been to drastically shrink public spending on infrastructure that burgeoned out of control during the country's boom years and sent its borrowing costs soaring as the economic crisis hit.
> 
> Since Spain opened its first bullet train connection between Madrid and Seville in 1992 it has become the operator of the largest high-speed network in Europe with more than 1,700 miles of track.


I read this article yesterday and thought the journalists of "telegraph" functionally illiterate. They can not distinguish even between train and railway.


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## Castor_Game

+ 1.000.000 :colbert:

En español se dice mala baba


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## Suburbanist

Coccodrillo said:


> With a sort of long distance "Avant" (low cost, no frills) trains would be full and taxpayer's money better used.


Then the whole, 8-years long branding effort of Renfe promoting AVE as a high-quality, better-than-highway, faster-than-plane option would be trashed.

By they might coexist, is a different, independent operation of low-cost trains were to be started. Maybe some private competitor that operates only point-to-point services between major HS markets, no connecting services with other operators etc.


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## Coccodrillo

> no connecting services with other operators etc


Only a fool would do that :cheers:


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## alserrod

urbanfan89 said:


> ^^ So, Spain is guilty of having white elephant high speed trains. The same article also states that Spain also spent vast amounts on white elephant airports and highways during the boom years. You can't state that high speed rail is a failure on this basis. There is nothing intrinsic about high speed rail which makes white elephants.




It is thrue that there are some "white airports", but high speed railways keep with traffic.

Last december connection between Madrid and Valencia was opened, as well a branch to Alicante was partially made (until Albacete and the rest is on works).

Apart of trains Madrid-Valencia (direct ones and with two stops), Madrid-Albacete (considered as regional), Madrid-Alicante (high speed until Albacete and normal railway later)... it was offered to passangers a... Toledo-Albacete. It is just an Albacete-Madrid which continues to Toledo.

Fares at Spain are very strange (there is a thread about that...) and most of passengers would prefer to make connection at Madrid instead of direct trains if those fares.


Journalist wrote as if one railway is closed when only three daily trains will partially dissapear. Just that!.
And... possibilities of connection.


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## gincan

Some photos from the ministry of public works of the NW HSR corridor under construction. The first part between La Coruña and Ourense will open at the end of this year. Actually the section between Santiago de Compostela and La Coruña (Vmax 250) has already been opened for traffic but still lack signaling (ERTMS) and electrification.

Some pics from the to be highest railway bridge in Spain (116 meters)


Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr


Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr


Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

And a few other bridges on the same railway


Viaducto de Deza por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr


Viaducto O Eixo por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr


Viaducto Río Sáramo por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr


Viaducto Río Portos por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr


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## Kaetzar

Viaducto sobre el río Ulla por Ministerio de Fomento, en Flickr

Beautiful!!


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## Railfan

Beautiful


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## saintm

magnífico!!!


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## Patryk

^^
muy impresionante  :applause: :cheers2:


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## arnau_Vic

thanks for the pics


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## Mare_nostrvm




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## hoosier

Suburbanist said:


> The Telegraph
> 
> The AVE route connecting the Castilla la Mancha capital Toledo with the cities of Albacete and Cuenca was inaugurated with much fanfare last December, one of the links that helped Spain overtake France as the country operating Europe's biggest high speed rail network.
> 
> But Enrique Urkijo, the Director General for Passengers at Renfe, was forced to concede that the project had not been a success and that operating a "ghost train" was no longer feasible.
> 
> "From Friday it will no longer be in service," he announced in Toledo on Monday.
> .


More biased bullshit from you. This is a problem of the origin-destination of the service, not a fault with HSR itself. This route uses High speed rail lines that connect much larger cities that perform quite well.


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## alserrod

hoosier said:


> More biased bullshit from you. This is a problem of the origin-destination of the service, not a fault with HSR itself. This route uses High speed rail lines that connect much larger cities that perform quite well.



Some details:

In december 2010, the high speed line Madrid-Valencia with a branch to Albacete (where trains can continue in the normal line to Alicante, for example) was openned to traffic.

Since then, there are high speed trains (13 daily) Madrid-Valencia, some of them with stops at Cuenca and Utiel, as well as there are trains Madrid-Albacete (100% high speed) or Madrid-Albacete-Alicante (after Alicante takes normal railway... high speed is on works there).

They put three daily additional trains more: Albacete-Madrid...-Toledo. Three daily trains which will finish at Toledo instead of Madrid.

Fares were considered as long distance trains... and they were the only long distance trains at Toledo. The rest are regional trains. Also high speed, but only to Madrid (28 minutes journey) and much, much, much cheaper.

People takes at Toledo the train to go to Madrid more than any other city... and the main relation was more expensive in these three trains than in the others (just because type of fares of the company).

The result was no passengers on these trains and... normal service in the others.

The company decided to cancel those trains, having new services Toledo-Madrid only (and with regional fares), and being able to shuttle to Valencia, Albacete (and anywhere, of course).


No line has been closed... just three daily trains with no passengers because the fares system have been cancelled. Instead, some new services have been opened and offer is similar.


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## StuZealand

Great pics thanks. Does anyone know what the older bridge in the background is? Road or rail? Cheers.


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## 437.001

StuZealand said:


> Great pics thanks. Does anyone know what the older bridge in the background is? Road or rail? Cheers.


Rail. 
It´s the classic line and it´s still some bridge... and some line, the classic one, easily one of the most beautiful lines in Spain!
The landscape in the area might remind some of you of some areas in Britain.
Weather too BTW...


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## 437.001

Woonsocket54 said:


> Quick question from the uninitiated: for the Barcelona-Paris HSR trains, are those trains direct trains,


Not yet, you need to change in Figueres-Vilafant station. By 2012 they will be direct though. 



> how long will the ride be,


6 hours more or less, from 2012 on, now it´s like 7h20min or so. 
To be shortened in future years (the goal is 4h30min). The French part of the line between Perpignan and Nimes is not High Speed yet. 



> what station do they arrive at in Paris,


Gare de Lyon. 



> and what are they doing about the break-of-gauge?


For now there is a change at Figueres-Vilafant station.
If you come from Barcelona, you take a train to Figueres-Vilafant, once you arrive there on the same platform there is a TGV waiting.
From 2012 on, there won´t be no break of gauge anymore.



> Thanks!


You are welcome.


----------



## alserrod

Woonsocket54 said:


> Quick question from the uninitiated: for the Barcelona-Paris HSR trains, are those trains direct trains, how long will the ride be, what station do they arrive at in Paris, and what are they doing about the break-of-gauge?
> 
> Thanks!




Apart of explanations of 437.001 and several photos you can surf on the web where you will notice that change of train can be made in the same plattform, I post an old map and explain it:










Wide black line is the high speed railway. And "Estación en proyecto" (station under project) is since last year a real station with service where TGV finishs.

Trains to the north are by that line.

Line to the south is on works.

Red line is the old line with different gauge. It is indicated which part will dissapear and which part will be the new one.

Currently:

TGV comes from north to the station in the black line.
All Spanish trains goes via Figueres centre to Port Bou and Cerbere (discontinuous red line). This includes the night trains from Barcelona to Geneve, Milano, Zurich and Paris
Two trains from Barcelona and only one stop at Gerona will take the branch to arrive to "Figueres-Vilafant".

Should you are going to ask for timetables (http://www.renfe.com/EN/viajeros/index.html English version) BE SURE you are picking "Figueres-Vilafant" station instead of "Figueres" (the difference will be being in the same platform that TGV or in the centre of Figueres).

There are only two trains from Figueres-Vilafant... the same that TGV come from Paris (and nearly also from Geneve). The schedules are prepared to shuttle.

The connection is not assured in case of delay of one train, but as far as I know, in one case, they wait for the other train.


Arriving to Barcelona you will be able to get a direct train to almost any side in Spain (some destinations require connection at Madrid)


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## etcs_03

Harrys said:


> Did someone have a good map of the AVE network (current and future) ?
> This one, from wikipedia, looks old and not very elaborate



This one of www.ferropedia.es is quite accurate and realistic as it considers only lines in service or with advanced works. It represents the situation after the opening of the HST Ourense-Santiago in a few weeks (December 10th, 2011). 










Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Líneas de Alta Velocidad (LAV) en España.

Other Spanish railways maps:

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Mapas_de_ferrocarriles_de_España_y_Portugal


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## Harrys

thx !!!

i'm very surprised that HST Ourense-Santiago is not a 1435mm ?!!! ^^


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## etcs_03

Harrys said:


> thx !!!
> 
> i'm very surprised that HST Ourense-Santiago is not a 1435mm ?!!! ^^


Is prepared to be changed to 1435mm when 

1) the HST from Olmedo-Zamora arrives to Ourense (will take several years, not before 2016)
2) a solution has been found for the freight trains (the HST between Vigo-Santiago-A Coruña is in fact an upgrade of the old line). This is a major problem and precise plans are not known/ do no exist. (?)

I put again the HST map (situation december 2011) together with the map of all lines (situation beginning of 2011) so that you can understand that a good solution to the second point is not easy without changing the gauge of the whole network.











Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Líneas de Alta Velocidad (LAV) en España.










Detailed legend and more information (in Spanish) in Declaración sobre la Red.

Other Spanish railways maps:

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Mapas_de_ferrocarriles_de_España_y_Portugal


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## Coccodrillo

etcs_03 said:


> changing the gauge of the whole network


ADIF and Fomento should do that as soon as possible.


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## alserrod

No need until the international gauge arrives there.

And I explain...

Spain (and Portugal and several other countries) have their railway networks with a different gauge which creates a handicap for international connections (no problem Spain-Portugal trains).

New high speed lines are being built with international gauges... which since 1992 is creating a lot of troubles in the network but solving them... as well as you have trains with several gauges. Today, every line for high speed is in a different gauge.

Central stations in every city have separated platforms for high speed or for normal trains... because they have different gauge. This is... high speed lines do not start in the end of each city but in the own station (and creates the handicap of building a new paralel line until the own station with a different gauge).

All new trains buyed since several years ago are prepared for a gauge change. In this way a train can use the high speed network but continue later in the general network. This is why Alicante, Algeciras, Granada, La Coruña, Gijon, Bilbao, Irun, Vigo and soooooo on (and cities in the middle) have a train that profits part the high speed line and continues on the old line while it is on works until the end.

The problem is that changing gauge takes several minutes (sometimes until 15 minutes) and ADIF has a 100 EUR fare for each change.

In this way, a train Madrid-La Coruña should have to change twice of gauge. 
Infrastructure has been preparated to do not change gauge several times but being able to change it to the international one when connection with it.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> ADIF and Fomento should do that as soon as possible.


Strange, because there are a number of people in Spain who are against that, arguing that there´s no need anyway, as there´s nearly no rail freight, and that it is a waste of time and money, even more with this crisis.

Actually there are only four normal gauge freight trains from France to Barcelona.
Everyone thought there would be many more freight trains, but there aren´t.

And anyway we don´t know if we´ll carry on with the EU much longer, so what´s the point?


----------



## Harrys

Some pics of Barcelona Sagrera AVE Station


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> Strange, because there are a number of people in Spain who are against that, arguing that there´s no need anyway, as there´s nearly no rail freight, and that it is a waste of time and money, even more with this crisis.
> 
> Actually there are only four normal gauge freight trains from France to Barcelona.
> Everyone thought there would be many more freight trains, but there aren´t.
> 
> And anyway we don´t know if we´ll carry on with the EU much longer, so what´s the point?


How many standard gauge yards and industries are linked to the Perthus line? This should be considered, also with the fact that today traffic between the Iberian penisnula and the rest of Europe is seriously limited by the gauge.

Finally, as most Spanish broad gauge lines are heavily underutilized, it wouldn't be problematic to convert them to standard gauge. For example, the whole Madrid-Irun-Hendaye line could handle its traffic on a single track during the conversion of the other. On single track lines it would be more difficult, but not so much as they usually see 4 passenegrs and 1 freight trains a day.


----------



## alserrod

The problem is not only the gauge... because inside Spain the freight is very small compared to trucks (and no problem with gauge).


Apart of it, as far as I know, any new railway strech, or just a refurbishement is prepared for European standard gauge. This is... they can refurbish just 3 km in a line, and will be open with Spanish gauge... but the line will be ready to be change to international gauge... at least in those 3 km (or the strech refurbished).


There are, sometimes, long lines that could be changed any day... but the problem of having two gauges is really big.

Apart of that, for high speed trains that goes later in the Spanish gauge to any corner... the change has a fare of 100 EUR... and that could be 1 EUR to add to any ticket.


----------



## Coccodrillo

alserrod said:


> The problem is not only the gauge... because inside Spain the freight is very small compared to trucks (and no problem with gauge).


This is true.

That's why changing gauge of all lines in Spain would not be too expensive: most new tracks are prepared for standard gauge, and most lines have a low traffic. And with the opening of the Valladolid-León/Burgos HSLs the existing lines could be easily regauged. You don't need 4 tracks to handle 120 trains a day...


----------



## Harrys

Coccodrillo said:


> For example, the whole Madrid-Irun-Hendaye line could handle its traffic on a single track during the conversion of the other...


+1000

This can develop the big potential of the Paris-Bordeaux-Madrid line for fret and passengers


----------



## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> This is true.
> 
> That's why changing gauge of all lines in Spain would not be too expensive: most new tracks are prepared for standard gauge, and most lines have a low traffic. And with the opening of the Valladolid-León/Burgos HSLs the existing lines could be easily regauged. You don't need 4 tracks to handle 120 trains a day...




There is another problem... all the network is radial. All lines departing Madrid. It is the fourth time it happens (first with the roads, second with the normal railway, third with the motorways, fourth with the high speed rails).

Today the Barcelona-Vigo uses the high speed rail between Barcelona and Zaragoza and continues with the old rail.
They will open new parts... but they will have to decide if this train (that connects the north side of the country corner to corner) will have to change the gauge several times or not...


----------



## gincan

437.001 you live in Tarragona som perhaps you can explain to me the rationale behind the location of the planned Tarragona-Reus trainstation.

Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.

Yet the planners opted for a from my point of view totally unlogical location between the motorway and the backside of the airport. Why that location? It is further away from Port Aventura and Salou, and will be difficult to reach without a private vehicle unless they will turn it into a sackstation and backtrack the trains from Vila-Seca but that seems very awkward to me.


----------



## alserrod

Summary:

Rail cross will be just before Camp de Tarragona.

So then:

Trains Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona (or anywhere before Zaragoza through Barcelona) will stop at Camp de Tarragona (only possibility)

Trains Zaragoza-Tarragona-Tortosa (low demande but possible) will stop at Tarragona-central

Trains Barcelona-Valencia could stop anywhere in the two stations but Tarragona-central is close to the city and to Reus. It is much easier to have a shuttle from there... and will be in the airport of Reus.

Furthermore, it is planned to have an European gauge until Tarragona-central (even when it will be at Reus, not at Tarragona) and later a gauge-changer to continue through Valencia.

Since there until southern L'Hospitalet there will be a new line with stops near (but outside of the towns) Salou, Cambrils and L'Hospitalet.

They need a point for shuttle lines and this point was the best.


Anyway, 437.001 will be able to give us further details


----------



## Harrys

*AVE Madrid-Valencia : Renfe trabaja para reducir hasta en 25 minutos*

Aunque durante su primer año de funcionamiento ya ha sido un éxito entre los viajeros, el AVE entre Madrid y Valencia aún no ha alcanzado la velocidad de crucero. Renfe evalúa ahora la posibilidad de poner en marcha los trabajos previos para incrementar la velocidad de circulación en esta línea, que pasaría de los 300 actuales hasta los 310-315 kilómetros por hora. Así, el recorrido entre ambas capitales podrá efectuarse en tan sólo 85 minutos, hasta 25 minutos menos que algunos trenes en la actualidad y 13 minutos menos que la mayoría de los viajes, con una duración de 98 minutos.

La mejora es similar a la del trazado entre Madrid y Barcelona, en el que la velocidad de circulación de algunos trenes se ha elevado de 300 a 310 kilómetros por hora, para reducir la duración del trayecto.

En el caso del AVE Madrid-Valencia, estas mejoras no se pueden aplicar hasta concluir el primer año de funcionamiento de la línea desde el viaje inaugural, que se produjo el pasado 19 de diciembre, para que la plataforma se asiente adecuadamente. Concluido este plazo, se realizará una exhaustiva revisión de seguridad en toda la línea. Sólo en caso de que este estudio dé un resultado positivo, se podrá incrementar la velocidad de los trenes, algo que debe evaluar la empresa pública Adif.
98 minutos de media

En la actualidad, el AVE Madrid-Valencia circula a 300 kilómetros por hora y efectúa el recorrido en una media de unos 98 minutos. Una vez concluyan estas labores técnicas, podrá viajar entre 310 y 315 kilómetros por hora, por lo que la duración del trayecto será inferior a una hora y 25 minutos. Mientras tanto, siguen adelante los plazos previstos para el resto del trazado en la Comunidad Valenciana, según los cuales el AVE llegará a Alicante en 2012.

http://www.abc.es/20111025/comunidad-valencia/abcp-renfe-trabaja-para-reducir-20111025.html


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## Harrys

Same thing pour the AVE Madrid-Barcelona

------------------------

*El AVE Madrid-Barcelona circulará a 310 kilómetros por hora desde hoy*










Madrid, 24 oct (EFE).- El tren de alta velocidad que enlaza Madrid con Barcelona circulará, a partir de hoy, a 310 kilómetros por hora en algunos tramos del trayecto, lo que permitirá reducir el tiempo de viaje entre ambas ciudades a dos horas y media.

De momento cuatro circulaciones diarias acortarán su tiempo de viaje en unos 10 minutos de media, mientras que, a partir de diciembre, las mejoras comenzarán a extenderse a todos los trenes de este corredor de alta velocidad, según el Ministerio de Fomento.

Las cuatro circulaciones que reducirán a partir de hoy su tiempo de viaje serán los trenes que salen de Madrid a las 07.00 horas y las 17.00 horas, y de Barcelona, a las 06.30 y las 17.30 horas.

El incremento de la velocidad ha sido posible gracias a la puesta en servicio por parte de Fomento del segundo nivel del Sistema Europeo de Gestión del Tráfico Ferroviario ERTMS en la línea Madrid-Barcelona-frontera francesa.

Su implantación se hará, no obstante, de forma progresiva, por lo que, en la primera fase, el ERTMS de nivel 2 entrará en servicio comercial en el tramo Madrid-Lleida, tras culminar con éxito las pruebas técnicas de su validación y fiabilidad, mientras que en el de Lleida-Barcelona, lo hará en diciembre de este año.

El incremento de la velocidad de explotación comercial también será gradual y, en la primera fase, la velocidad máxima se elevará hasta los 310 kilómetros por hora, donde la infraestructura lo permita y una vez homologado el material rodante.

El ERTMS es impulsado desde la Unión Europea para asegurar la interoperabilidad de todas las nuevas líneas que se construyan en las diferentes redes ferroviarias de los estados miembros.

Con 1.491 kilómetros de línea férrea dotada de ERTMS, España tiene en estos momentos la mayor implantación del sistema común europeo de señalización. EFE

http://www.abc.es/agencias/noticia.asp?noticia=972892


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> 437.001 you live in Tarragona som perhaps you can explain to me the rationale behind the location of the planned Tarragona-Reus trainstation.
> 
> Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.
> 
> Yet the planners opted for a from my point of view totally unlogical location between the motorway and the backside of the airport. Why that location? It is further away from Port Aventura and Salou, and will be difficult to reach without a private vehicle unless they will turn it into a sackstation and backtrack the trains from Vila-Seca but that seems very awkward to me.


The answer is that politicians put their paws in everything they can for reasons that they alone know and that we can only guess.


----------



## etcs_03

alserrod said:


> Summary:
> 
> Rail cross will be just before Camp de Tarragona...


This map from www.ferropedia.es illustrates what Alserrod has explained:










In the article http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/El_ferrocarril_en_Tarragona there are several other maps, including this one of 2005 that I find very interesting, but that unfortunately was not followed.


----------



## 437.001

A few images of high speed trains on the Madrid-Barcelona line. 
The location is La Granada station, on the R4 line of the Barcelona commuter train Renfe network.
This station is just beside the HSL.


----------



## Mare_nostrvm

Video of the Spanish consortium which has won the contract for the new HSR line construction in Saudi Arabia.

(In English)


Línea de Alta Velocidad Medina - La Meca. Consorcio español de alta velocidad (English version) - Adif


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## K_

gincan said:


> Now, when I look at the map to me it looks like a no brainer. The station goes on top of the existing rail line creating an intermodal hub with exelent road and rail connections to Reus, Tarragona and Salou. With a commuter rail line between Reus and Tarragona you could link up 200.000 people within a 10 minute train ride from the station, and with a short branch link up Port Aventura and Salou.


Yes, but rail hubs don't seem to be a Renfe thing. That you can use regional or commuter rail as a feeder to HSR is a concept that still has to catch on in Spain it seems to me.


----------



## Harrys

I found this map in wikipedia, looks interesting

Septembre 2011


----------



## gincan

K_ said:


> Yes, but rail hubs don't seem to be a Renfe thing. That you can use regional or commuter rail as a feeder to HSR is a concept that still has to catch on in Spain it seems to me.


One can accuse Renfe of a lot of bad things but they are not responsible for the location of the train stations. The problem here is that local athority has overridden common sense and opted for train-airport intermodal hub (the latest shit in Spain). 

They seemed to forget that for the airport-train station concept to work you need an airport with traffic in the 10+ million passengers range. Another problem is that Reus Airport is not an international hub and will never be with Barcelona, Valencia and Madrid serving that function.

Of cause another problem is that the train station is located on the wrong side of the airport so i any case a shuttle bus will be needed, but I doubt that will ever be needed, without Ryan Air Reus is an airport that serve charter tourists (about half a million of them) to Salou and Cambrils and that's about it.

However the main problem with the train station is the location itself. It is really stupid as you will only be able to access it from one direction, this will creat a huge bottleneck for car traffic that would never had happened if they had choosen to build the station to the south on top of the existing rail road, where you can connect the station to three major roads (independently) and at the same time with minimal effort connect all the important towns around with commuter rail.


----------



## alserrod

Harrys said:


> I found this map in wikipedia, looks interesting
> 
> Septembre 2011



This is CURRENT map for high speed railway and international gauge. All lines are prepared for 300 km/h at least except Zaragoza-Huesca (international gauge but only 200 or 160 km/h)

Take a look that at Madrid the two stations are not still linked (under construction).

There are trains running on international gauge from Madrid to all those corners (Sevilla, Malaga, Valencia, Albacete, Toledo, Huesca, Barcelona and Valladolid).
There are also trains running from Barcelona to Sevilla and Barcelona to Malaga without stopping at Madrid. There is a by-pass in the south of Madrid... and it is under construction another one to link Valencia and Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid (faster and less kilometres).
And also there are trains Madrid-Puertollano, Sevilla-Malaga, Barcelona-Lleida and Zaragoza-Calatayud for short distances using this infrastructure

Apart of those trains which are 100% international gauge there are trains that uses all that they can of the high speed network and have an interchange of rails to continue in the Spanish gauge to any corner. Cadiz, Huelva, Algeciras, Malaga, Alicante, Castellon, Logroño, Pamplona, Irun, Bilbao, Santander, Gijon, La Coruña and Vigo are linked to Madrid via high speed line and a change of gauges.

Pamplona, Irun, Bilbao, Vigo and Gijon are linked to Barcelona making part of way in high speed line (until Zaragoza) and later with the Spanish gauge.

And... I had a "Miss". It appears the international tunnel near Mediterranean where two daily TGV trains arrive from Paris (and nearly another one from Geneve)


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## Harrys

Thanks for the explanation


alserrod said:


> There are also trains running from Barcelona to Sevilla and Barcelona to Malaga without stopping at Madrid. There is a by-pass in the south of Madrid... and it is *under construction another one to link Valencia and Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid* (faster and less kilometres).


Is this future by-pass will be in the south of Toledo ? and no is there already AVE from Valencia to Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid Atocha ? it looks like it's possible in the map ?


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## Coccodrillo

> and no is there already AVE from Valencia to Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid Atocha ?


There aren't, because the link between Madrid-Levante (Valencia, ...) and Madrid-Andalusia (Cordoba, Malaga, ...) lines is still under construction: http://maps.google.ch/maps?q=Madrid....617294&vpsrc=0&hnear=Madrid,+Spagna&t=h&z=16


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## bongo-anders

Is it correct that the new HSR tunnels under Barcelona, Girona and Madrid are drilled with one tube with 2 tracks and not (as normal) with 2 tubes with one track each.


----------



## Woonsocket54

When are they going to link Chamartin and Atocha for HSR? And after that happens, will Chamartin stop being an HSR station or continue to be one (in a less significant capacity) a la Ueno Station in Tokyo?


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## 437.001

bongo-anders said:


> Is it correct that the new HSR tunnels under Barcelona, Girona and Madrid are drilled with one tube with 2 tracks and not (as normal) with 2 tubes with one track each.


Why does that seem so strange to you?

It really makes no difference.


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## 437.001

Woonsocket54 said:


> When are they going to link Chamartin and Atocha for HSR? And after that happens, will Chamartin stop being an HSR station or continue to be one (in a less significant capacity) a la Ueno Station in Tokyo?


It´ll continue to be one.
It will actually be the terminus for all the AVE trains to Valencia and Alicante, which will quit Atocha station because Atocha is approaching saturation..


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## Coccodrillo

It seemed to me that in Atocha a lot of capacity is lost because of trains standing there doing nothing...


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## Harrys

bongo-anders said:


> Is it correct that the new HSR tunnels under Barcelona, Girona and Madrid are drilled with one tube with 2 tracks and not (*as normal*) with 2 tubes with one track each.


 with normal, do you mean the Channel Tunnel ?
I think most of urban tunnel are one tube, since the train speed limit is quite low


----------



## bongo-anders

Just wait a minute before you jump the gun because i didn't say it was strange i was just interested in this kind of tunneling.

Here in Scandinavia we mostly use tunnels with 2 tubes like the Copenhagen metro, Citytunneln in Malmö, the Great Belt rail tunnel and also one of the proposed H-H tunnels between Denmark and Sweden is designed with 2 tubes.


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## Harrys

ok fine...didn't know about scandinavian metros ^^


----------



## alserrod

Harrys said:


> Thanks for the explanation
> 
> Is this future by-pass will be in the south of Toledo ? and no is there already AVE from Valencia to Sevilla/Malaga with non-stop at Madrid Atocha ? it looks like it's possible in the map ?




They will be existing lines only. Currently it would be possible if running Valencia-Madrid, stopping after the cross in the middle of the line and going backside to Sevilla.

With this new link a train will be able to go from Valencia to Sevilla and Malaga with no stop.


As an example, this is the link near Madrid for trains from Barcelona to Sevilla and Malaga.

The connection is the railway besides the M-50. The other lines are the main ones Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Barcelona.

http://maps.google.es/?ll=40.325477,-3.635015&spn=0.035532,0.084543&t=h&z=14&vpsrc=6


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## bongo-anders

@ harrys

Sorry if i was rude to you but i was referring to the other user who thought that i was thinging that is was strange to build with one tube.

But another question, is it cheaper to use one tube instead of 2, because you will need a much larger TBM to fit 2 tracks in the tunnel.


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## 437.001

It depends on the length of the tunnel and the kind of line you´re building, and the kind of soil you´re boring.


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## StuZealand

Two separate tubes gives several advantages:
* Safety: if a train should derail, it can't crash into one travelling in the opposite direction.

* Redundancy: if one tube is closed due to accidents, fire or maintenance, the other can be used bi-directionally. The Simplon tunnel is still operating on the one tunnel that's fully open (after a fire several months ago).


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## bongo-anders

So its more expensive in most cases to have 2 tunnels but its more practical and a little bit more safe.


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## arriaca

There are several reasons for choosing monotube or twin tube tunnel. But the three main ones are the geology, availability of tunneling and maximum speed. On the geology of Madrid and Barcelona, ​​speed and availability of machinery the option of a single tube was the best.

It is also important to remember that these tunnels are not high speed. The speed will be limited to run between two stations very close. And security is guaranteed by the emergency exits.


----------



## Think

You are also fogetting the fact of the emergency exits.

In a urban tunnel you could build as many exits directly to the surface as you want, while in a mountain or a sea tunnel the only way to make a emergency exit is to the other tube.

The expensive or not expensive question is a little more difficult, it depens on a lot of things... the Toulouse undeground has twin-tube sections between monotube sections.


----------



## XAN_

Harrys said:


> ok fine...didn't know about scandinavian metros ^^


Well, many metros use separate tubes. All Russia and CIS (= ex-soviet) metros are separate-tube type, for example.


----------



## Think

XAN_ said:


> Well, many metros use separate tubes. All Russia and CIS (= ex-soviet) metros are separate-tube type, for example.


In networks like that, usually once you have a construction system is easier to mantain it, due to the reuse of the construction equipament and techniques.


----------



## SamuraiBlue

XAN_ said:


> Well, many metros use separate tubes. All Russia and CIS (= ex-soviet) metros are separate-tube type, for example.


Some TBM circumference are so large that it can fit two metro tubes so they actually create a divider between the two lane. This is to insulate noise and wind moving from one lane to the other which becomes annoying to the passenger.










Another types are these that bore two tunnels at once.


----------



## Mare_nostrvm

Riding from Málaga..


----------



## solchante

thanks Mare nostrum

new talgo AVRIL´s video






passenger rail equipment for high speed intercity service.


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## el palmesano

Mare_nostrvm said:


> Riding from Málaga..


great video!


----------



## RamiroII

*AVE - High speed trains in the desert*

Recorded at the high speed rail Madrid - Barcelona (province of Zaragoza).






Superb!


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## 437.001

Fantastic!


----------



## Blackraven

Wow is this true?

I heard that they are planning for a bullet train service to the Airport (Madrid Barajas) in addition to the existing airport rail link of the Madrid Metro

Wow that would be awesome if it's true :banana:


----------



## arriaca

^^

No, We are building it


----------



## 437.001

^^ :sleepy:


----------



## RamiroII

Blackraven said:


> Wow is this true?
> 
> I heard that they are planning for a bullet train service to the Airport (Madrid Barajas) in addition to the existing airport rail link of the Madrid Metro


The AVE high speed trains will use the recently opened Cercanías C1 (commuter) tracks to access the Airport.

I don't see the point, the AVE users can already take a Cercanías from Chamartín railway station to the T4 in just 10 minutes, and with the same AVE ticket. Plus, there is also the metro line 8...


----------



## alserrod

Blackraven said:


> Wow is this true?
> 
> I heard that they are planning for a bullet train service to the Airport (Madrid Barajas) in addition to the existing airport rail link of the Madrid Metro
> 
> Wow that would be awesome if it's true :banana:



Yeah... as Ramiro II said, it is true, but it will be more in order to confort (avoid transfer with suitcases) than speed (they will be as fast as commuter trains only in that strech).

Madrid-Barajas has four terminals. Underground line 8 goes to Terminal 2 (and possibility to go to 1 and 3 just walking) and Terminal 4.
Train goes only to Terminal 4.

There are not a lot of possibilities to have many trains there. We will see some high speed trains but not all. Anyway, from Chamartin or Atocha you can shuttle to a commuter train with the same speed there.


----------



## Viva_Bulgaria

solchante said:


> thanks Mare nostrum
> 
> new talgo AVRIL´s video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> passenger rail equipment for high speed intercity service.


Is that train going to be manufactured in Spain?


----------



## Think

^^It is.

But Talgo has the habit to manufacture their trains in combination with the purchaser company, because this way it's easier to sell them, so if any foreign company buys them they could be half-made in another country.


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## Viva_Bulgaria

It is great that it is produced in Spain :cheers: I know that Talgo does not always manufacture the trains it designs and that is why I asked. Furthermore its facilities in Las Matas and Alava (near Miranda de Ebro but I cannot remember the name) do not look so large. And yet they can produce such a great machine.


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## Think

^^But it is not exactly creating a dessing to be made by others. Talgo trains are always made by Talgo, but usually a part of them are made by Talgo in the purchaser company depots by the purchaser company staff. In the case of Renfe, series 102 and 112 where partially made at Integria (Renfe's manufacturing division) in Los Prados (Málaga).


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## Viva_Bulgaria

That is very interesting information. I have never heard about that facility in Malaga, thank you very much


----------



## Jota

RamiroII said:


> Recorded at the high speed rail Madrid - Barcelona (province of Zaragoza).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Superb!


Amazing! They sound like planes.
Here it is the 1st video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcXiXCGVNPM


----------



## Think

Viva_Bulgaria said:


> That is very interesting information. I have never heard about that facility in Malaga, thank you very much


It's that one:

http://maps.google.es/maps?ll=36.696834,-4.467761&z=18


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## RamiroII

A new high speed train (350 Km/h), the CAF Oaris (Renfe Serie 105), is being tested in Spain these days:



FJP said:


> Que bonico que es!





Railway gazette said:


> According to CAF, the Oaris platform is based around a distributed power concept, allowing sets to be formed with four, six or eight coaches. Each vehicle would have one motored bogie with two asynchronous three phase motors and VVVF inverter drive, allowing the installed power to be directly related to train length. A multi-system traction package would allow operation at 1·5 or 3 kV DC, 15 or 25 kV AC. An eight-car set would have two transformers feeding four inverter sets, with one inverter per supplying the two traction motors on that vehicle.
> 
> The aluminium bodyshells have been designed to meet all European TSIs and crashworthiness requirements whilst keeping weight to a minimum. Bogies would have helical spring primary suspensions and a pneumatic secondary suspension backed up by transverse and lateral linkages between bogie and car body. Traction motors would be frame-mounted to minimise unsprung weight.
> 
> CAF says the trains could be supplied for 1 435 or 1 668 mm gauge, with a gauge-convertible option also envisaged. Oaris is intended to accept a variety of signalling systems now in use across Europe, as well as ETCS.


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## phugiay

How long does it take from Madrid to Barcelona? Did the train stop anywhere during the trip?


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## Suburbanist

phugiay said:


> How long does it take from Madrid to Barcelona? Did the train stop anywhere during the trip?


2h40 the fastest, not-stop services. Some stop at Zaragoza and Lleida.


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## 437.001

AVE Madrid-Barcelona has direct non-stop trains, trains which stop only at Zaragoza, and others which stop at Guadalajara-Yebes or Calatayud, Zaragoza, Lleida and Camp de Tarragona.


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## gincan

Suburbanist said:


> 2h40 the fastest, not-stop services. Some stop at Zaragoza and Lleida.


It is 2H30 now that they have started to use ETCS 2. Still that is relatively slow at 248km/h average speed. At the current max speed (310km/h) it is possible already now to run the direct trains in 2H15 but RENFE has this no late trains policy so the trains usually end up arriving ahead of the timetable, sometimes as much as 20 min for the direct trains.


----------



## hoosier

I hope the new party in power does not halt the expansion of the HSR network.

Austerity during a recession= more recession.


----------



## el palmesano

^^ that's what the party that has lost the election said...

so yes there will be austerity, and a lot, but not on trains, but in health, education, etc 

austerity will be an excuse to say we are wrong, so they can privatize what have always wanted to privatize


----------



## Suburbanist

It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.


----------



## Vaud

^^ well, it's a government-built railway line and a government-owned public company running the services, so people has already paid and continues to pay via taxes, it's only fair that fares are low.


----------



## Sopomon

RamiroII said:


> A new high speed train (350 Km/h), the CAF Oaris (Renfe Serie 105), is being tested in Spain these days:


Oh exciting!
I much prefer CAF-built trains to Talgo ones, I hope this turns out to be a successful set!


----------



## alserrod

phugiay said:


> How long does it take from Madrid to Barcelona? Did the train stop anywhere during the trip?



With some changes, the regular timetables are (monday to friday):

Five direct trains non-stop Madrid-Barcelona. Three early morning and two in the evening. They do not run on weekends, summer, Christmas, Easter...

And every hour departing Madrid at XX:30 and Barcelona at XX:00

- First train stops only at Zaragoza
- Second train stops at Calatayud, Zaragoza, Lleida and Camp de Tarragona
- Third train stops only at Zaragoza
- Fourth trains stops at Guadalajara, Zaragoza, Lleida and Camp de Tarragona.

So then, except the five direct trains, all of them stops at Zaragoza (one every hour). Half of them stops at Lleida and Camp de Tarragona (one every two hours) and at Calatayud and Guadalajara every 4 hours


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## Think

Suburbanist said:


> It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.


I don't know what will this party do but at the end the rail market will be a free market in some years, like air companies market was done. Both privatized or not, spanish' rails will have private companies over them. SNCF is one of the interested companies.


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## el palmesano

Suburbanist said:


> It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.


WHAT??????????????????

all HST infrastructure belong to the Spanish, privatize and sell it would be a stolen. because a private company would never pay what it cost to build the infrastructure that is owned by the citizenry


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## Federicoft

Suburbanist said:


> It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.


So you wish users will pay more, and that extraprofits from the use of an infrastructure built with taxpayer's money will go to a private company. 
It is very often a real struggle to understand the points you try to make.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I'm talking about privatizing the operations, not the infrastructure. Like complying right now with European directives, segregating de-facto the infrastructure from the train operations, and selling or leasing the latter for the highest bidder. Or allow any private operator willing to pay tolls (like in highways) to run high-speed trains over Spanish tracks. 

Nowhere I spoke of selling the tracks and stations, sorry if you understood that.


----------



## Stifler

Suburbanist said:


> It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.


Madrid-Valencia: 391 km and 79.80 EUR -> 0.204 EUR/km

Milano-Bologna: 215 km and 42 EUR -> 0.195 EUR/km

And in Italy you have several different options for all the different costumers (Regionale, Intercity, Frecciargento, Frecciarossa...). In Spain usually all those services disappear or raise their prices a lot so that "everybody choose HS".

Moreover, prices/wages are 10% higher in Italy.


----------



## Stifler

Suburbanist said:


> I'm talking about privatizing the operations, not the infrastructure. Like complying right now with European directives, segregating de-facto the infrastructure from the train operations, and selling or leasing the latter for the highest bidder. Or allow any private operator willing to pay tolls (like in highways) to run high-speed trains over Spanish tracks.


Spain desperately needs that, but to lower prices and add more options for costumers. Right now the people who use HSL are those who used to take a plane. All the bus-users and many train-users have left the train because it is just too expensive and there are few trains available.

That's ridiculous. After spending such amount of money in HSL, transport by bus/car should be almost inexistent in most routes.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Let me elaborate more: the current service level of AVE warrants a higher cost. However, with an open access, low-cost operators using trains with 2nd class only, open seat on 2+3 seat-per-row arrangement etc. have potential to offer, also, lower cost services.



> After spending such amount of money in HSL, transport by bus/car should be almost inexistent in most routes.


Spain did have a quite develope bus transport system because its railways were very slow compared to France, Italy, Germany... So buses will be there making competition to high-speed trains, but if low-cost train operators existed, they'd probably get a hit.

As for car, I don't think many people drive all the way from Madrid to Barcelona or Sevilla, and those who do are unlikely to change modes of transportation.


----------



## Federicoft

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I'm talking about privatizing the operations, not the infrastructure. Like complying right now with European directives, segregating de-facto the infrastructure from the train operations, and selling or leasing the latter for the highest bidder. Or allow any private operator willing to pay tolls (like in highways) to run high-speed trains over Spanish tracks.
> 
> Nowhere I spoke of selling the tracks and stations, sorry if you understood that.


I know you were referring to operations. Still, if a state company can make profits from the use of an infrastructure (including depreciation costs), at the same time offering lower-than-average fares, I really don't see where's the problem. Rail operations are not like air travel: they are a natural monopoly, i.e. the most efficient market structure is the one with a single supplier. Instead of having a private operator strictly, and generally ineffectively, regulated by the state, extracting a disproportionately high yield from the use of such infrastructure, the state just take over operations and runs the infrastructure reconciling profits with social benefits. 
The competition and free-market mambo-jumbo, at least when applied to natural monopolies such as rail operations, universal postal service or water services, will just lead to inefficiency and higher social costs at consumers' expense.


----------



## Think

Federicoft said:


> I know you were referring to operations. Still, if a state company can make profits from the use of an infrastructure (including depreciation costs), at the same time offering lower-than-average fares, I really don't see where's the problem.


The problem is that nowadays in the opinion of the customers Spain's so far away of having lower-than-average fares. Even when "rail tollls" aren't so expensive. And after 20 years of high speed Renfe has demostrated that they have not any intention to change it.

The fares are really closer of that of the national air companies before the liberalization of the air market. They are expensive, they aren't flexible.

The other problem in here is that when operations will be in a free market we are supossed to have public and private competitors in the same line. Ones will think that this is a problem to the private companies, I think the problem is for the public operator that doesn't know how to please the customers and how to manage a free market.

We could think that the solution for Renfe is to do low cost services, but it's so clear that this is not their game. Adding that they have eliminated all the other services (it has it explanation) in high speed corridor, Renfe will suffer, but customers will be deligthed.

I'd prefer a hyper-efficient Renfe, but is not the real one. The causes of that could be a great discuss, I think it comes from the rail situation in Spain from after the civil war, that has been always "special".



Federicoft said:


> Rail operations are not like air travel: they are a natural monopoly, i.e. the most efficient market structure is the one with a single supplier. Instead of having a private operator strictly, and generally ineffectively, regulated by the state, extracting a disproportionately high yield from the use of such infrastructure


I don't see the difference with the air market. Where is the inefficiency? In the liberalization process the've copied all the operation way from air traffic. They exist slots, to run a train you only have to resquet it and pay the taxes, and traffic controlers only see trains in their screens, don't mind what company they are. There is no difference to run a public train or a private train in that infrastructure.

If you're talking about passengers flow efficiency, Renfe has demonstrated he's not enought.


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> It would be nice if some HSR operations were privatized in Spain. Fares are too cheap IMO, they can be raised to French or Italian standards.


Are you on drugs or what?

Figueras-Paris on TGV, tickets from 54€. That´s more than 800km.
Valencia-Madrid, usual price: 80€ for a distance of just a little over 300km.


----------



## 437.001

Vaud said:


> ^^ well, it's a government-built railway line and a government-owned public company running the services, so people has already paid and continues to pay via taxes, it's only fair that fares are low.


Fares aren´t effing low, they´re just as expensive as in Germany, if not more!!!!!


----------



## 437.001

The first ever electric train to enter La Coruña station, an Avant, class S-121, doing the tests for the new HSL Ourense-Santiago-La Coruña. 

Here it is:


----------



## alserrod

It is a fantastic news because it is the opening of the final strech of high speed to La Coruña.

It is opened with Spanish gauge instead of international gauge because there is no continous line later and they avoid to change the gauge.

But it is ready to be changed quickly to international gauge when the high speed line arrive to Orense.

Since december, timetables are calculated with a saving time on those journeys.


----------



## Patryk

In the polish television was a report about high-speed trains in Spain, and was told that AVE are the best and the longest high-speed train in Europe

http://szybkakolejtak.pl/multimedia/filmy/ave


----------



## alserrod

Patryk said:


> In the polish television was a report about high-speed trains in Spain, and was told that AVE are the best and the longest high-speed train in Europe
> 
> http://szybkakolejtak.pl/multimedia/filmy/ave




The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.

Best trains... any passenger could decide.
They are not bad, but also not cheap and have few alternatives.

BTW, around the minute 3:00 the images were taken near my city but in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## riasbaixas

Amazing photo by REGFA. S-121, doing the tests for the new HSL Ourense-Santiago-La Coruña. 

Ponte Ulla bridge 



REGFA said:


> La linea entre Santiago y Ourense tiene bastantes circulaciones de lunes a viernes con la formación y pruebas de los 121.
> 
> Viaducto de Guntian.
> 
> 
> Ponte Ulla por ***REGFA***, en Flickr


----------



## arriaca

alserrod said:


> The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.


Alserrod, he is speaking about High Speed Lines network. Total rail network is far from being among the longest


----------



## alserrod

Mistake from my side... I wanted to say about high speed railway network.

The normal network is not so great... and it is a pity but the trains are prepared for trips point to point... not to connect with another one.


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## cnzhongke

a la gloria


----------



## B1ritney

In next year I'm going to visit Spain and ride the high-speed train. For this, I made a map on which routes are painted concrete classes of trains. In order to understand it takes some time.



Lines of different colors represent different types of trains on selected sites
Blue - AVE
Red - AVANT
Black - ALVIA, Euromed and Alaris

AVE - AVE
AL - Alvia
Ala - Alaris
E - Euromed

How to decipher the inscriptions:
for example near with Sevilla written BAVES103 - read as: B AVE S103 - from Barcelona to Sevilla, AVE, class 103
also
near with Jaen written CS121 - read as: C S121 - from Cadiz to Jaen (red line - AVANT), class 121.

Through this scheme, I'm going to create my route in order to ride on all types of high-speed trains in Spain

The scheme was drawn up by renfe.es and ru.* de.*, es.*, en.wikipedia.org. Please specify the inaccuracies and outright errors.

PS: I'm from Russia, I do not know English very well, so part of the message written by translate.google.ru
PSS: I made a similar scheme for Italy, but there are more questions. I also want to do for France.


----------



## Think

Barcelona-Sevilla/Málaga it's 102 or 112, depending of the timetable. You could know them in the sales system because S112 has two classes, instead of S102 who has three. 

Santander, Gijón, Bilbao and Irún trains are going to be S120 in the future.

Ourense-A Coruña will have an Avant S121 service.

Madrid-Granada/Algeciras have Altaria services wich run partially trougth the HSL at 200 km/h between Madrid and Antequera-Santa Ana. Madrid-Vigo/A Coruña too beetween Madrid and Medina del Campo, but they aren't called Altaria, I think.

Trenhotel night trains Barcelona-Vigo/A Coruña/Gijón use partially the HSL, also at 200 km/h, between Barcelona and Zaragoza.

There are TGV's who enter Spain for few kilometers, at Irún (non HSL) and at Figueres-Vilafant (HSL).


----------



## alserrod

B1ritney said:


> In next year I'm going to visit Spain and ride the high-speed train. For this, I made a map on which routes are painted concrete classes of trains. In order to understand it takes some time.
> 
> 
> 
> Lines of different colors represent different types of trains on selected sites
> Blue - AVE
> Red - AVANT
> Black - ALVIA, Euromed and Alaris
> 
> AVE - AVE
> AL - Alvia
> Ala - Alaris
> E - Euromed
> 
> How to decipher the inscriptions:
> for example near with Sevilla written BAVES103 - read as: B AVE S103 - from Barcelona to Sevilla, AVE, class 103
> also
> near with Jaen written CS121 - read as: C S121 - from Cadiz to Jaen (red line - AVANT), class 121.
> 
> Through this scheme, I'm going to create my route in order to ride on all types of high-speed trains in Spain
> 
> The scheme was drawn up by renfe.es and ru.* de.*, es.*, en.wikipedia.org. Please specify the inaccuracies and outright errors.
> 
> PS: I'm from Russia, I do not know English very well, so part of the message written by translate.google.ru
> PSS: I made a similar scheme for Italy, but there are more questions. I also want to do for France.




good map and I give you further information that could help:

AVE and Avant goes always by High speed lines. Avant is designed for regional services as well as AVE is for long distance ones. The difference you will find is on trains, facilities and specially on prices.

Alvia takes partially high speed line and runs later by normal railway (different gauge).

You should consider also Orense-Santiago-La Coruña as HSL as far as it is done. It is opened with Spanish gauge until they arrive the rest of the HSL lines (avoiding two gauge changing), but times are faster.

There is also Avant there.


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## el palmesano

Rail Technology Center in Spain


----------



## Patryk

> The longest network it is... and it has a special detail... different gauge. High speed network has European gauge, different to the Spanish normal railway.
> 
> Best trains... any passenger could decide.
> They are not bad, but also not cheap and have few alternatives.
> 
> BTW, around the minute 3:00 the images were taken near my city but in the middle of nowhere.


^^Yes, maybe not cheap but everywhere in europe rail transport is expensive ...and in Spain is very high quality level of services independently whether it is high-speed or Cercanías ... i'm very interested about road and rail transport in Spain, and after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona :cheers:


----------



## amagaldu

Patryk said:


> i'm very interested about road and rail transport in Spain, and after the opening of high speed line between France and Spain, The UK authorities wants to direct train London-Madrid via Paris and Barcelona :cheers:


where did you pick that up..?


----------



## arnau_Vic

thanks for the video Palmesano


----------



## Coccodrillo

gincan said:


> So there is a bright future for rail freight in Spain.


Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.


Do the narrow gauge passenger lines make the existing wide gauge lines less full of passenger traffic?


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## Coccodrillo

Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.


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## chornedsnorkack

Coccodrillo said:


> Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.


But they need not do so inside Spain. How much is being done to improve goods train traffic inside Spain?


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## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> Passengers can quickly and cheaply change train, goods cannot.



Goods can... but have to change wheels on freight wagons so there is not too much international freight railway traffic.

Furthermore... Maximum length at Spain is about 450 m and at France I think it is 700 m.

I listen about exporting wagons... as well as you pay per train you try to maximize. So you send two trains to the border, get about 700m train to France and leave 200m there. Two trains more... and leave 200m (now 400m) there waiting for the next one... 
Spanish lines are being prepared for longer trains but only some lines and it is not easy


As an example, in my region, the main entreprise makes cars. Depending of the destination they send by ship since San Sebastian (Atlantic), since Tarragona (Mediterranean) or all by rail via Port Bou.

For car importation there are several points for logistic distribution railway-truck for Spain and Portugal (and that means international trains arrive there).

They are almost shared by a big number of companies.

Near my city you have this point
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=zuera...352692&t=h&hnear=Zuera,+Zaragoza,+Aragón&z=16


But in general, only cars, some civil works companies and very big goods are carried by train.
Anyway... there is no problem to change the wheels but for the logistic point of view, it is not practical, so used when the price difference is great.


----------



## gincan

Coccodrillo said:


> Only if Spain (and Portugal) will convert all their broad gauge lines to standard gauge.


When the lorry business start going bust on large scale, then there is little choice but shifting to rail freight. The gauge change will be enforced on the Spanish government by the industry. It will be very simple, either Spain provide a decent freight transport network or the industry will move out of Spain.

One thing is very clear though, the Spanish lorry industry is a bubble that will burst very hard when the economy contract in combination with increased transport costs. We saw a small forerunnet to what is coming during the summer 2008 when Spanish truckers tried to bring the country to a halt. it will be ten times worse this time around.


----------



## Coccodrillo

chornedsnorkack said:


> But they need not do so inside Spain. How much is being done to improve goods train traffic inside Spain?


Sure, gauge it is not a problem if the origin and destination of the goods are on the same gauge network. But a lot of freight is exchanged between the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe, and in this traffic rail has around 3% share or so (maybe 4, maybe 5, but not much more). I have in my head the numbers of 3 millions of tonnes a year of rail freight between Spain and France border, and 70 by road (before the crisis). I cannot find the sources, but it's a very low share for rail.


----------



## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> Sure, gauge it is not a problem if the origin and destination of the goods are on the same gauge network. But a lot of freight is exchanged between the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe, and in this traffic rail has around 3% share or so (maybe 4, maybe 5, but not much more). I have in my head the numbers of 3 millions of tonnes a year of rail freight between Spain and France border, and 70 by road (before the crisis). I cannot find the sources, but it's a very low share for rail.




I think percentage is.... even smaller!! but inside Spain the percentage is not greater than exportation. This is... there is no culture about railway freight. The entreprise that has it, doesn't matter to have a different gauge to export. They will prefer the same one, of course... but it is an algorithm about travel time, price, etc... and different gauge is only one thing more to take in consideration


----------



## Sunfuns

If we are talking specifically about high speed lines then are these really suited for freight traffic? In most countries freight is not even allowed on such lines due to increased wear and drastically decreased capacity for passenger trains... 

P.S. The cheapest way of moving goods around is still by a ship.


----------



## Coccodrillo

To make a Frankfurt-Madrid train you need at least two locomotives and either two sets of wagons (if goods are transshipped) or special wagons that can change boogies or axles. That's expensive, and few companies want to do that, so for these routes railway is attractive only for some specific goods like cars, raw materials (coal, grain, ...), maybe some container traffic but not too much else.

Spain needs broad gauge lines more than new HSLs, in my opinion, and this could be done converting the existing and often nearly empty broad gauge railways.

@Sunfuns: Spanish HSL are not suited for freight, except some stretches like Barcelona-Figueras-Perpignan and the Variante de Pajares. Although I doubt there will be capacity issues on lines like Olmedo-Ourense (Madrid-Galicia) or Palencia-León.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> P.S. The cheapest way of moving goods around is still by a ship.


And about half of all intra EU freight goes by ship...


----------



## alserrod

Yeah... but not all origin/destinations are besides a harbour


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

*La Sagrera TAV (Barcelona)*

Cycling through my neighbourhood the other day I decided to cross the Gran Via and check out the status of the Sagrera TAV High-speed railway station, currently under construction in Barcelona's Sant Marti District. Below some pictures I took during my cycle route:

Coming up from Bac de Roda to the Pont de Treball, looking to the right:


Standing on the bridge looking down in the direction of the Besòs river (maybe someone knows what the hole is for)


Standing in the middle of the bridge, still looking towards the north:


On the side of La Meridiana the view of the tunnel taking the UIC lines from La Sagrera to Sants via Mallorca (There is a hole of some 6 meters below the concrete slab I think):


On the other side of the bridge, the UIC-tunnel going underneath Carrer de Mallorca (I think they moved the building slightly to enable the tunnel entering Mallorca)


The usual information provided by the state:


Cycling all the way around the building site and on the bridge, looking towards the center, that was recently built to replace one they tore down a couple of meters further towards the south:


One without rodalies train:


And some tunnel elements I found when looking for the extension of Metro Line 4 from La Pau via new station Santander to La Sagrera TAV (looks kind of left to rot):


&



Hope you enjoyed it.


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## Sunfuns

To my non-expert eyes it looks like years from completion...


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> To my non-expert eyes it looks like years from completion...


Most optimistic forecast is 2016 but really 2020 and beyond is more realistic considering the current economic situation. This is after all a 2 billion euro project that most likely will end up more expensive due to delays. Sants which is a much smaller train station took 12 years to finish (1969-1981) without the hotel. This station is a lot larger and include workshops and service areas for trains, work began in 2008 and I would not be surprised if this project took 15-20 years to finish.

This PDF gives you an idea of the scope o this project

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/upload/multimedia/1062.pdf


----------



## 437.001

Hi. 

*New AVE direct service between Valencia and Seville*, service started a week ago or so.

Calls at Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordova.

Travel time 3h50min from Seville to Valencia.

Skips Madrid thanks to the new by-pass in Torrejon de Velasco (southern Madrid).

For now, there´s one per day, as it is a new service, service might increase if it sells ok.

Now you know. 

p.s: Renfe sells tickets Valencia-Malaga, but you have to change trains at Cordova station.


----------



## alserrod

And thanks to the Formula 1 race at Valencia, trains arrive full two weekends ago!!

Change trains at Cordoba are for Malaga with a 10 minutes delay.


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## CityDreamer

437.001 said:


> Hi.
> 
> *New AVE direct service between Valencia and Seville*, service started a week ago or so.
> 
> Calls at Cuenca, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordova.
> 
> Travel time 3h50min from Seville to Valencia.
> 
> Skips Madrid thanks to the new by-pass in Torrejon de Velasco (southern Madrid).
> 
> For now, there´s one per day, as it is a new service, service might increase if it sells ok.
> 
> Now you know.
> 
> p.s: Renfe sells tickets Valencia-Malaga, but you have to change trains at Cordova station.


Can't see the demand rising too much, but good to see the new service using (for the most part) existing lines.


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## alserrod

It is only one train per day that connects Valencia and Seville (shuttle to Malaga) directly in less than four hours.
It is possible to have a lot of trains with a stop at Madrid. In this way it would take longer and a little more expensive.

Let's hope the service run correctly and a second train will be required.

Since three years ago there are two Barcelona-Sevilla and two Barcelona-Malaga so Barcelona, Tarragona, Lerida and Zaragoza have four direct connections to Cordoba.

Trains run full international gauge and 300 km/h speed.

Avoiding Madrid stop they save time because entering the city (slow speed), inverse of driving and time of stop... and as well as there are enough passengers to have trains only to Madrid and trains to the other corner without entering Madrid they offer these services which pass very near Madrid station but do not stop there


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## CityDreamer

Someone has had a cunning plan... in order to save money on new AVE lines, there is a proposal to modify the existing track with a third rail, so the fast trains can run on existing lines - at speeds up to 250 km/hour it's claimed.
(article in Spanish)
http://www.eleconomista.es/empresas...r-3000-kilometros-de-via-iberica-al-AVE-.html
I think this is a great idea (so long as routes are kept safe). For instance the Madrid to Zamora stretch should be operational by early next year. If the AVE can then carry onto Galicia using this 3rd rail method, then the route will have major time savings.


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## Sunfuns

Paris-Madrid seems to be too far for a regular traffic even with a very fast train. Barcelona-Marseille and Barcelona-Lyon is a proper "train territory". Maybe Paris-Barcelona, but at ca 5 h (1,100 km) it would also be pushing it to the limits...


----------



## Vaud

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Is there even a case for a Madrid-Geneva train? How long will it take?


Nobody except for rail fans and people who fear flying would travel from Madrid to Geneva when there are very cheap flights between the two cities, both of them hosting two important international airport. But as you already know the train advantage over the plane is the intermediate stops.

Anyway I'm waiting for this line to open to be able to do Genève-Barcelona on a fast train like today's Genève-Paris... no more plane for me!


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> Paris-Madrid seems to be too far for a regular traffic even with a very fast train. Barcelona-Marseille and Barcelona-Lyon is a proper "train territory". Maybe Paris-Barcelona, but at ca 5 h (1,100 km) it would also be pushing it to the limits...


Barcelona-Paris in 5 h won't happen for a long time, when Barcelona - Figueras open it will take over 6 h to Paris.


----------



## Sunfuns

gincan said:


> Barcelona-Paris in 5 h won't happen for a long time, when Barcelona - Figueras open it will take over 6 h to Paris.


I know, 5 h is the best that route can hope for given the distance and current long term plans. 

On the other hand Barcelona-Marseille is only 500 km and even with just a partial HSR it ought to be possible to cover it in 3 h (170 km/h average) or less. That's exactly the distance and time shared by most successful HSR lines.


----------



## 33Hz

I wonder if there is a market for London - Barcelona, even at ~7.5 hours? After all there are intercity services in the UK of this length.

The London - Barcelona air market was 1.7 million last year and pretty consistent across the year too.

Even assuming only 10% market share, that is roughly 500 people a day (in addition to possible cabotage). I expect most of this air market is concentrated around long weekends, so Friday and Sunday/Monday trains might be particularly viable.


A possible stopping pattern might be London - Paris CdG - Lyon - Montpellier - Barcelona, as those stops have reasonable air traffic too.


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## Sunfuns

There is some limited market even for very long services. There are some advantages a train has besides travel time (no restrictions on baggage, for example), but it will be difficult to make money on them because business passengers are unlikely to use anything longer than ca 4h. Of course the point about intermediate stations is still valid.


----------



## CityDreamer

gincan said:


> Barcelona-Paris in 5 h won't happen for a long time, when Barcelona - Figueras open it will take over 6 h to Paris.


Even at 6 hours I think there will be a demand for Barcelona-Paris. I took the train many years ago from Barcelona to Madrid, a journey then of over 7 hours. Still plenty of passengers on the train, but many were getting on/off half way.
Incidentally Renfe now offer a service from Barcelona to Malaga - takes over 5 hours but high speed rail all the way.


----------



## K_

Vaud said:


> Nobody except for rail fans and people who fear flying would travel from Madrid to Geneva when there are very cheap flights between the two cities, both of them hosting two important international airport. But as you already know the train advantage over the plane is the intermediate stops.
> 
> Anyway I'm waiting for this line to open to be able to do Genève-Barcelona on a fast train like today's Genève-Paris... no more plane for me!


There used to be a Geneve - Barcelona Talgo. It was replaced with a Geneve - Montpelier TGV that gave a cross platform connection to aTalgo in Montpelier. 
And yes there is a market for such a service. Of course you won't get the business travel market with that, but as a train can serve multiple destinations that is not needed. A lot of people are not in a hurry anyway, and given how air travel is becoming progressively more disagreeable even day long long distance trains have a market.

A Geneve - Barcelona - Madrid train will see me on it.

What also might have some success are seasonal trains to points south of Barcelona. People take the TGV from Brussel to Nice, so why not Geneve - Alacant with stops al along the Costa...


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## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> What also might have some success are seasonal trains to points south of Barcelona. People take the TGV from Brussel to Nice, so why not Geneve - Alacant with stops al along the Costa...


Because it would take much longer...


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## 437.001

Patryk said:


> How many pairs of trains will be direct between Paris-Barcelona/Madrid and Geneva-Madrid?


Not many in the beginning. 
It will be a progressive thing, not a big bang scenario.

You have to bear in mind that the gauge problem has kept people from travelling by train to (and from) Spain for many, many years. So only Paris-Barcelona, Paris-Madrid, and Geneva-Barcelona are previously existing routes, all the others are new.

There has never ever existed any direct Barcelona-Toulouse nor Barcelona-Marseille train for instance, despite the reasonably short distance (the former) and not very long distance (the latter) between them. Ever. So we start from scratch in many of these routes.

Right now there are two TGV Paris-Figueras every day.
One TGV Geneva-Figueras might be added or not before the opening of the Barcelona-Figueras HSL.

Later, it might be two TGV Paris-Barcelona, plus one TGV Paris-Madrid, and one TGV Geneva-Madrid.

Later an AVE Barcelona-Toulouse/Marseille, plus an AVE Madrid-Marseille, plus another TGV Paris-Barcelona, and a train (still uncertain if it´ll be an AVE or a TGV) Barcelona-Lyon.

And then more trains will be added when and where needed.

Further targeted services are Nice, Bordeaux, and Lille.

You can obviously think about seasonal holidays, of course, at these times occupation might get to very high numbers (I mean per train, not yet number of trains).

This HSL service will nevertheless not be working at full pelt till some issues in the French HS network can be sorted out, such as the saturation on the Paris-Lyon line, and at Lyon-Part Dieu station in particular, or the lack of a HSL between Nimes and Perpignan, where trains will have to keep on using the old classic line.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Is there even a case for a Madrid-Geneva train?


By putting together a Barcelona-Geneva train and a Montpellier-Madrid train, you can use better the intermediate stations.



> How long will it take?


About 8 hours. 
But very few people will use it for the whole route. Some will though.



Sunfuns said:


> Paris-Madrid seems to be too far for a regular traffic even with a very fast train.


Same as above: You put together a Paris-Barcelona train and a Montpellier-Madrid train and you have it.

There are trains that have a longer route than that in terms of travel time.
And more importantly, at each end of the line are two of Europe´s bigger cities (Paris and Madrid), and another big one (Barcelona) is right in the middle, so the intermediate stops are going to be used for something, don´t you think so?  



> Barcelona-Marseille and Barcelona-Lyon is a proper "train territory".


Yes, and we expect much of these two routes, especially the first, and also Barcelona-Toulouse.



> Maybe Paris-Barcelona, but at ca 5 h (1,100 km) it would also be pushing it to the limits...


No way. There´s plenty of TGVs with such long, or longer routes:

-Brussels-Perpignan
-Paris-Munich
-Barcelona-Seville
-Barcelona-Malaga
-Brussels-Nice
-Paris-Nice
-Paris-Pau-Lourdes-Tarbes

Paris-Nice is very well used, even if it isn´t competitive vs the plane.


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## 437.001

K_ said:


> A Geneve - Barcelona - Madrid train will see me on it.


Well, enjoy the trip.



> What also might have some success are seasonal trains to points south of Barcelona. People take the TGV from Brussel to Nice, so why not Geneve - Alacant with stops al along the Costa...


Geneva-Alicante will not be feasible at all for a number of years due to gauge difference.
You´ll have to change trains at Barcelona-Sants if the timetable allows it.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I know, 5 h is the best that route can hope for given the distance and current long term plans.


The targeted definitive travel time is 4h30min, that is, once the whole HSL completed from Paris to Barcelona, thus including the now-missing stretch between Perpignan and Nimes. 



> On the other hand Barcelona-Marseille is only 500 km and even with just a partial HSR it ought to be possible to cover it in 3 h (170 km/h average) or less. That's exactly the distance and time shared by most successful HSR lines.


The initial travel time from Barcelona to Marseille will be 3h45min.
3 hours is feasible if the missing link is built.


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## 437.001

33Hz said:


> I wonder if there is a market for London - Barcelona, even at ~7.5 hours? After all there are intercity services in the UK of this length.
> 
> The London - Barcelona air market was 1.7 million last year and pretty consistent across the year too.
> 
> Even assuming only 10% market share, that is roughly 500 people a day (in addition to possible cabotage). I expect most of this air market is concentrated around long weekends, so Friday and Sunday/Monday trains might be particularly viable.
> 
> 
> A possible stopping pattern might be London - Paris CdG - Lyon - Montpellier - Barcelona, as those stops have reasonable air traffic too.


A London-Barcelona train per day would be feasible, but only if Eurostar (or a given company) had trains adapted for both the Spanish and British systems.

That said, it would be perfectly feasible as there is now a London-Avignon Eurostar on summer weekends.


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## Suburbanist

London Avignon is still less than half London-Madrid.

Seriously, I doubt there is a case for such service. Barcelona and London are both major air hubs.


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## gramercy

night trains should be tried, it would be ideal for tourists: 
for a hotel room's price, you get accommodations for a night AND you can end one day in Paris and start the next in Madrid..


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Because it would take much longer...


So what. Not everybody is in a hurry. And I know quite a few people who rather spend 8 hours in a train then 15 minutes being humiliated at an airport.


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## K_

437.001 said:


> Well, enjoy the trip.
> 
> Geneva-Alicante will not be feasible at all for a number of years due to gauge difference.
> You´ll have to change trains at Barcelona-Sants if the timetable allows it.


That is wat Renfe has gauge changing trains for.


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> London Avignon is still less than half London-Madrid.


Where did YOU read London-Madrid? Because clearly, I didn´t write anything about such a service.



> Seriously, I doubt there is a case for such service. Barcelona and London are both major air hubs.


If there is room for a London-Avignon on summer weekends, there should be room for a daily London-Barcelona. I find it obvious given the size of both cities. It is more of a technical issue (equipment of trains) than anything else.


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## 437.001

K_ said:


> That is wat Renfe has gauge changing trains for.


Yes, but not Alstom´s!!
The Alvia 120 is CAF´s, and the Alvia 130, and the hybrid Alvia 730 are Talgo/Bombardier´s.

AVE 100 will be used for these services because they will be easily homologated in France, as they´re TGVs, and only need minor upgrade to travel in France. No other scenario has been thought about as it would be rather more expensive anyway, to both Spain and France.

And more importantly, there is no link between the HSL Barcelona-Madrid and the classic line in Barcelona. A branch line is being built in Tarragona that will link the Barcelona-Madrid HSL and the Barcelona-Valencia classic line, but they take these works veeeeeeery easy (they started 15 years ago!).

And there´s no gauge-change facility in Barcelona that could allow such thing to happen, nor is the construction of any of them planned.

And actually, a change at Barcelona-Sants is not a dangerous experience anyway. 
Just change platforms and wait for a few minutes.


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## 33Hz

437.001 said:


> A London-Barcelona train per day would be feasible, but only if Eurostar (or a given company) had trains adapted for both the Spanish and British systems.


The British end (HS1) is built to French standards, so nothing new is needed here [Channel Tunnel fire regulations aside]. What extra do they need for the Spanish HSL?


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## 437.001

33Hz said:


> The British end (HS1) is built to French standards, so nothing new is needed here [Channel Tunnel fire regulations aside]. What extra do they need for the Spanish HSL?


ERTMS, and if possible, decent doors, as platforms in Spain are 68cm high.

In Figueras, when you enter the TGV, you have to be careful, because it´s downstairs.


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## Suburbanist

^^ How is that even allowed considering safety/evacuation regulations?


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## 33Hz

437.001 said:


> ERTMS, and if possible, decent doors, as platforms in Spain are 68cm high.



IIRC the Dutch HSL Zuid has ERTMS too, so I imagine the new Eurostars are compatible as they are being built to go to Amsterdam. As for the platforms, British ones are also higher. There are folding steps on their current trains.

Sounds like this could happen with the right political will. The 320 km/h top speed will help on the southern reaches of the French LGVs.


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ How is that even allowed considering safety/evacuation regulations?


Why´s a raven like a writing desk? :sleepy:


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## Hubert Pollak

I traveled by the train Paris-Figueres and untill Perpignan it was almost full.

so some ideas about timetabel for new Figueres - Barcelona highspeed line:

There is a lot of TGV trains to Perpignan even Perpignan - Brussels, why not to expand all of tham to Barcelona?

DB with cooperation with SNCF started service Frankfurt - Starsbourg - Lyon - Marsellie some months ago, why not to split it to two parts in Valence TGV and send one to Marsellie and another one to Barcelona?

Actual Paris - Figueres (Barcelona) trains are not synchronized with trains from Germany (Berlin-Paris nigh train and mentioned Frankfurt - Marsellie) let's hope thath this will change with high speen Figueres- Barcelona ones opened.


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## Suburbanist

If anything, such international collaborations should be cracked upon because they preclude international independent private train operators for even having a chance to apply to slots couple years in advance (so that they can buy trains).


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## alserrod

Hubert Pollak said:


> I traveled by the train Paris-Figueres and untill Perpignan it was almost full.
> 
> so some ideas about timetabel for new Figueres - Barcelona highspeed line:
> 
> There is a lot of TGV trains to Perpignan even Perpignan - Brussels, why not to expand all of tham to Barcelona?
> 
> DB with cooperation with SNCF started service Frankfurt - Starsbourg - Lyon - Marsellie some months ago, why not to split it to two parts in Valence TGV and send one to Marsellie and another one to Barcelona?
> 
> Actual Paris - Figueres (Barcelona) trains are not synchronized with trains from Germany (Berlin-Paris nigh train and mentioned Frankfurt - Marsellie) let's hope thath this will change with high speen Figueres- Barcelona ones opened.



Old railways in Spain and Portugal have a different gauge wide than the rest of Europe.

High speed lines have the international gauge wide but... only in those new lines built after 1992. There are too many (the country with more high speed lines in Europe) but still do not link with European network.

That means... for running from anywhere with international gauge to a Spanish gauge you may be on a train able to change automatically... or just make a connection between two trains.

This is why trains from anywhere in France cannot go after Figueres, where the international gauge railway ends (strech until Barcelona is under construction and in an advanced status).

There, currently it is possible to shuttle to a train in Spanish gauge until Barcelona.

When the new line Barcelona-Figueres will be open, it will be possible to go from anywhere in Europe to southern Spain.

Furthermore, Sevilla, Malaga, Valencia, Barcelona, Madrid, Toledo, Albacete and Valladolid are all of them linked by high speed lines with standards of 300 km/h. 


On summer there is one non-stop Barcelona-Sevilla that runs in 4 hours 50 minutes (about 1200 km, which makes 244km/h of commercial speed!!!)


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## 437.001

Hubert Pollak said:


> I traveled by the train Paris-Figueres and untill Perpignan it was almost full.
> 
> so some ideas about timetabel for new Figueres - Barcelona highspeed line:
> 
> There is a lot of TGV trains to Perpignan even Perpignan - Brussels, why not to expand all of tham to Barcelona?
> 
> DB with cooperation with SNCF started service Frankfurt - Starsbourg - Lyon - Marsellie some months ago, why not to split it to two parts in Valence TGV and send one to Marsellie and another one to Barcelona?


NO. There´s no need, nor passengers, nor rail frequencies available, nor competitivity in that route.

That train should cross France, so I guess the French should have their say about it.

Besides, the EU will be dead by that time. Spain has an interest in keeping good relationship with France. 



> Actual Paris - Figueres (Barcelona) trains are not synchronized with trains from Germany (Berlin-Paris nigh train and mentioned Frankfurt - Marsellie) let's hope thath this will change with high speen Figueres- Barcelona ones opened.


Why should they be synchronized with any train from Germany? So as the Germans can come to the beach? They have the airplane... or the Baltic.

The German passengers will become a negligible part of the passengers on the France-Spain HSL. This is a France-Spain line, so I don´t see why Germany should be in the middle like every Thursday on every week.


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## amagaldu

437.001 said:


> Why should they be synchronized with any train from Germany? So as the Germans can come to the beach? They have the airplane... or the Baltic.
> 
> The German passengers will become a negligible part of the passengers on the France-Spain HSL. This is a France-Spain line, so I don´t see why Germany should be in the middle like every Thursday on every week.


that´s one of these answers you really can keep for yourself.. hno:


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## alserrod

today only Figueres has a real connection timetables between Spain and France. In the other stations, incluiding Canfranc with only two local trains in Spain and bus service served by SNCF in France, timetables are not matched.

So we can be very happy because international connection!!


Anyway... in different forums it is said that a train Madrid-Paris will have few passengers point to point but a lot of passengers in other stations. This is... there is a good service Madrid-Paris by plane, as well as from Lyon, Barcelona, etc... but a poor service from other stations with an importan numer of inhabitants.

These stations will be the ones that will fill the train.

More international connections?. It will depend mainly of German and French railways... Today there is a train until Geneve. Is there any connection to the other corner of Switzerland?. Not assured. You arrive and ask for it.


From my point of view... as many connections will be welcome... but... who has to assure them?


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## Vaud

alserrod said:


> Today there is a train until Geneve. Is there any connection to the other corner of Switzerland?. Not assured. You arrive and ask for it.


Today's international elipsos train reaches Lausanne, Fribourg, Bern and Zurich after Geneva. 

I bet once the TGV's are introduced some sort of connection will be made available considering CFF's policy on the issue, probably by having it arriving at the perfect time for existing trains, it will heavily depend on schedules though of course, such long-distance trains are more prone at deviating from the set timetables. In any case Geneva's train station is well connected to the rest of the country with trains towards Zurich departing every 30min, half of them through Neuchâtel - Olten and the other half through Lausanne - Bern, and trains to Bern even more frequent, with no need to mention Lausanne given that they have almost become a suburban network.


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## alserrod

What I wanted to say is that being on service Barcelona-Figueres, let's suppose that almost all of trains from France will be anywhere-Barcelona (they can come from Paris, Toulouse, Nice, Switzerland, Brussels and Germany for instance...) and a few of them will continue anywhere (mainly Madrid but they could arrive to Sevilla and Malaga running 300 km/h nonstop).

In any case, a train arriving to Barcelona will not require a connection. There are more than one train every hour to Madrid, similar to Valencia and they just have to take a look if you want to go to Northern Spain or Andalucia (and you can go there with a connection in Madrid if you have no other alternative).

Should we have so many trains in the other corner... no need to have a full timetable for connecting trains. Good frequencies means nice for connections.


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## Dan

When does the bit from Barcelona, and also the bit into Extremadura/Portuguese border, open?


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## 437.001

Dan said:


> When does the bit from Barcelona, and also the bit into Extremadura/Portuguese border, open?


The Barcelona-Figueras connection should open by Spring 2013.

As for the Madrid to the Portuguese border (namely Badajoz), there is no date yet.


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## alserrod

Figueres-Barcelona next year. From Barcelona there is high speed railway that can go until Madrid, Toledo (no direct service, there is only a shuttle from Madrid), Sevilla, Malaga and Valencia (but via Madrid so it doesn't worth).
There is no link still to Valladolid because line Madrid-Valladolid arrives to a different station in Madrid and connection is u/c
Anyway, in many stations there is an infrastructure to change the gauge and running 300 km/h while high speed line and 120-160 in normal lines.


No date for connection to Lisboa and Portuguese government decided to stop the project.
The international station would have a passengers terminal in the Spanish side (Badajoz is the main city in the area and city centre is only 4 km from border) and a freight terminal in the Portuguese side (about 15 km from border).

Anyway, with some works it could run a train until Madrid and later continuing on the old railway till Lisboa.


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## K_

Suburbanist said:


> If anything, such international collaborations should be cracked upon because they preclude international independent private train operators for even having a chance to apply to slots couple years in advance (so that they can buy trains).


And how do they do that, may I ask?


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## K_

alserrod said:


> Today there is a train until Geneve. Is there any connection to the other corner of Switzerland?. Not assured.


Oh, but the connecting to any other town, village, hamlet or mountain hut in Switzerland is no problem at all, as long as you don't arrive in Switzerland to late...


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## CityDreamer

Will the fast train link to Cadiz open this year?


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## alserrod

No, and no plans to arrive.

But, good news since last spring. Today you have four direct trains Madrid-Cadiz which run 250 until Sevilla and continue in the normal line later, as well as in other four trains it is sold as "connection", and AVE Madrid-Sevilla and just several minutes later a Sevilla-Cadiz, having assured that you will take the second train waiting for you or an alternative given by Renfe.

You can mix a return ticket with a direct train and a connection trains or viceversa, for return discount.

Connection trains take the same time that direct train. You loose some minutes at Sevilla but Madrid-Sevilla run 300 so it is faster.


So... eight trains, between connection and direct ones Madrid-Cadiz.


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## FM 2258

I took the train from Madrid to Malaga at the end of 2010 and the ride was great. Never got pictures because my camera got stolen in Barcelona the same evening (spent 6 hours in Malaga then flew to Barcelona). Getting tickets was easy and the train was on time. Great way to see the Spanish countryside.


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## alserrod

kay:
Within Madrid network you can cross it too.


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## Gadiri

I read that Renfe has to much AVE. Is that true ? How many could be sold ?


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## alserrod

Gadiri said:


> I read that Renfe has to much AVE. Is that true ? How many could be sold ?



I do not know... but it is thrue.

What it is obviously is what in the late 80s they bought too many AVEs thinking in giving service from Madrid to anywhere in Andalucia.
Taking the decission to a line with international gauge... there were too many trains for the line (because in the first year they ran only Madrid-Sevilla).

In that way:
- Several trains were adapted to Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante called Euromed. They run only 200 km/h even if they are ready for 300.
- They adapted trains with the variable gauge changing system and offering trains from Madrid to Malaga (up to six per dey), Algeciras (1), Huelva (1) and Cadiz (2) in the first ten years.
And they used those trains for a shuttle Madrid-Puertollano with less services and cheaper.

But today it is a good question. One forumer made a post about if Renfe would sold some trains to concurrence if free market released in Spanish railways.


But no exact data to post


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## alserrod

By the way, the October 12th is bank holiday in Spain and the major day at Zaragoza. Usually receives a lot of visitors... and it depends if the 12th is on weekend or in a weekday visitors will be more or less.
Being on friday this year is expected to receive too many.

Renfe has created new train services Madrid-Zaragoza using the old conventional line and the high speed line for going the thursday 11th and returning the sunday 14th.


These are timetables (extra, apart of current trains)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=95943893&postcount=3488


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## Gadiri

alserrod said:


> I do not know... but it is thrue.
> 
> What it is obviously is what in the late 80s they bought too many AVEs thinking in giving service from Madrid to anywhere in Andalucia.
> Taking the decission to a line with international gauge... there were too many trains for the line (because in the first year they ran only Madrid-Sevilla).
> 
> In that way:
> - Several trains were adapted to Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante called Euromed. They run only 200 km/h even if they are ready for 300.
> - They adapted trains with the variable gauge changing system and offering trains from Madrid to Malaga (up to six per dey), Algeciras (1), Huelva (1) and Cadiz (2) in the first ten years.
> And they used those trains for a shuttle Madrid-Puertollano with less services and cheaper.
> 
> But today it is a good question. One forumer made a post about if Renfe would sold some trains to concurrence if free market released in Spanish railways.
> 
> 
> But no exact data to post


Thank you for the answer.


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## 437.001

K_ said:


> But the Rodalies don't go as far as Girona, do they...


Girona has its new AVE/TGV station under advanced construction.
Date of opening (if no more new delays happen, fingers crossed!): April the 1st.


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## 437.001

Gadiri said:


> I read that Renfe has to much AVE. Is that true ? How many could be sold ?


If you mean "sold to other countries", not one. 
If you mean "private companies operating in Spain", that might be, but we don´t know anything else yet.

These now-unused AVE are simply awaiting for some extensions of the net to finally open.

Next two ones: Barcelona-Girona-Figueres (April 1, 2013), and Albacete-Villena-Alicante (sometime later in 2013).

Then it will be the HSL on interconnection between the Atocha and Chamartin stations in Madrid, which will allow a train to run from Valladolid to Seville, Malaga or Valencia (and later to Alicante or Barcelona).

Then, it should be the Olmedo-Zamora sector of the Galicia HSL to open, as well as the Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos, and the Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSLs.


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## NET.

437.001:

When the "Corredor Mediterráneo" Will be Finish?


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## K_

437.001 said:


> If you mean "sold to other countries", not one.
> If you mean "private companies operating in Spain", that might be, but we don´t know anything else yet.


RENFE is setting up a leasing company to lease HST's to private companies, according to this news:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/renfe-establishes-high-speed-leasing-pool.html


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## alserrod

NET. said:


> 437.001:
> 
> When the "Corredor Mediterráneo" Will be Finish?


I'd hazard a guess that it is the hardest question in the Spanish infrastructure!!

Some works started about 15-16 years ago more or less... and now stopped.


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## Sunfuns

I would imagine that works which are not already very advanced will have to wait for a better economic climate.


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## alserrod

The full corridor (Tarragona-Valencia)

By the way, there are three lines that could be opened next year


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## 437.001

NET. said:


> 437.001:
> 
> When the "Corredor Mediterráneo" Will be Finish?


Never ever. WHAAA, HA, HAAA... :devil::crazy2::troll:

Now seriously, we don´t have a clue.
There are bits of it in works, and in my region, a section has been in works for the last 17?, 18?, :sly: years.

New HSL will open as long as we have the budget to finish them.
Next ones to open will be Barcelona-Figueras and Albacete-Alicante.
Beyond that, we really can´t tell.

:dunno:



K_ said:


> RENFE is setting up a leasing company to lease HST's to private companies, according to this news:
> http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/high-speed/renfe-establishes-high-speed-leasing-pool.html


Might be, but we don´t know much about details and so on. 
We´ll let you know when we have a 100% source.


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## Castor_Game

*NEW TALGO AVRIL - INNOTRANS BERLIN - 2012*

Vision of a Dutch photographer.

The photographer says he following: *During Innotrans 2012 Talgo showed of it's newest High speed train model. The Avril (nicknamed Cisne, meaning Swan in Spanish) is a standard gauge HST that fits in UIC G1 clearance, the common "clear space" for a train in most parts of Europe. The biggest feature is it's capacity. 500 to 735 passengers in a standard 200m long train*.



 Talgo Avril  por  Maarten Otto , en Flickr

As for the interiors of the train, said: *By optimising the maximum train width allowed for UIC G1, Talgo was able to place a 3+2 seating configuration in their new Avril model. Although 3+2 seating is often cramped, this train offers enough comfort for journeys up to 5 or 6 hours*.



 Avril interior Standard Class  por  Maarten Otto , en Flickr

And: *There was a moment when the Avril gave me the feeling of stepping into a modern well equipped aircraft.

Although the isle looks narrow, I was able to walk normally through the coach, something both passengers and train staff will highly appreciate*.



 Avril interior Standard Class  por  Maarten Otto , en Flickr


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## Silly_Walks

Does it have distributed traction?


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## Think

^^First version not, but next versions yes.


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## Neb81

Sounds like Talgo have their eye on the French market. SNCF have been looking for ages for a high capacity TGV unit, and this has offers more than the Alstom TGV Duplex, and being Talgo I'd imagine there is also the option for variable gauge?

One qustion though, if it uses Talgo bogies (which it looks like in the picture) how is distributed traction possible? My understanding was that Talgo style bogies cannot be powered, and so you had to have a power car with conventional bogies?


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## Think

Neb81 said:


> Sounds like Talgo have their eye on the French market. SNCF have been looking for ages for a high capacity TGV unit, and this has offers more than the Alstom TGV Duplex


I don't see it. Talgo is so special, SNCF is so special... Indeed SNCF has always been an enemy for Talgo rolling stock, they made a lot of thecnical restriction to avoid the homologation of new Talgo trains and Talgo features in France.



Neb81 said:


> and being Talgo I'd imagine there is also the option for variable gauge?


The first feature of the AVRIL project is that it should be avaliable for near everything. They have variable gauge with no speed limitations (now the variable gauge system is in the space of a extra brake disk so the speed is limited in comparation with monogauge trains). AVRIL could also be hybrid, diesel/electric.



Neb81 said:


> One qustion though, if it uses Talgo bogies (which it looks like in the picture) how is distributed traction possible? My understanding was that Talgo style bogies cannot be powered, and so you had to have a power car with conventional bogies?


That's the question, they haven't show yet. That is why the first version doesn't have distributed traction. Sometimes sounds that they promised a distributed traction before having designed it, and now they don't know what to do, because that's the most important thing and they've shown nothing.

Sometime they talk about a weird think called "semidistributed traction". It consisted in a traditional loco-Talgo coaches-loco train, but the first coachs had also a traction bogie near the loco.


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## makita09

Think said:


> Sometime they talk about a weird think called "semidistributed traction". It consisted in a traditional loco-Talgo coaches-loco train, but the first coachs had also a traction bogie near the loco.


That "weird thing" is used on all TGV/Eurostar/KTX1 :cheers:


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## Think

^^I said weird due to naming it distributed traction, not by the system.

I read someone near to Talgo who said that it could be called "distributed" because Talgo coaches had only one axis, and that system had 12 traction axis 2 (2x4 in the locos and 2x2 in the first coaches), so if you have up to 12 coaches more than 50% of axis have traction, like completly distributed traction trains.

That's weird for me because it means that a train with one BB loco and one car (we've seen that in Spain) could be considered kind of distributed traction.


----------



## makita09

Distributed traction just means that it isn't all concentrated in a loco(s) - be it a dedicated loco or a car in an EMU that is the only motored car. The 50% rule I don't think exists - a 9-car pendolino has 12 powered axles out of 36, but is still considered distributed traction.

Semi-distributed, to describe a Loco set with additional powered axles in the cars, is a sensible sub-class, as there is a distinct difference between having all the traction supply and control systems slung under the cars, as opposed to having them all in a loco.

But if there is a loco in the consist it is not distributed traction - it could be semi-distributed, but it can't be distributed.


----------



## alserrod

A new service Zaragoza-Calatayud-Madrid on Avant will be set soon. 30 euro (half price) and a few slower (1h45 against current 1h20m) than AVE.

Only one per day... but let's wait for passengers's response


----------



## Coccodrillo

Will it stop in Guadalajara Yebes?


----------



## alserrod

No, but they should.

The demand Madrid-Zaragoza is higher than Zaragoza-Barcelona. So then, instead of reinforcing trains, double composition or so on, they put Madrid-Calatayud-Zaragoza (which will take some passengers of other trains) and will leave morea seats in the Madrid-Barcelona.


Looking at proposal I do not know why they wouldn't stop at Guadalajara as far as it is a train that runs on mornings and returns on middle evening.


----------



## 33Hz

Adif, Renfe start tests on Barcelona - Figueres high-speed line


----------



## el palmesano




----------



## Slartibartfas

^^ What starts as a nice but a bit naive looking report turns out to be a really good and balanced one. High Speed Rail as it says is no magic bullet, but its a great achievement nonetheless.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

*La Sargera TAV | High-speed train station under construction in Barcelona – 01/12/2012*

A couple of months ago I shared some of my pics here of the Sagrera TAV building site, Barcelona biggest singular building site and home to its main station for Local, regional and international train traffic. Planned for opening most likely at the dawn of the age of Aquarius, currently the site remains a hustle and bustle of builders, engineers and their machines. And all that while normal train traffic towards Barcelona’s suburbs and other regional and international destinations continues, supposedly without many more disruptions to travelers and schedules than is normally the case. (As I commute to work by car, I don’t really notice rail congestion).

As the LAV towards France will finally see regular high-speed traffic from April 2013 onwards (let’s believe it when we see it) and as today was a nice and sunny day here on the Med, below some photos I took today. As I am merely an infrastructure groupie, maybe some other members can explain some of the things you can see in the photos.









From Carrer de Bac de Roda, starting of the Pont de Treball









A close up of the 1668mm lines towards El Maresme and the Interior and north of Catalunya. I suppose this is all still very provisional and not the end configuration of the lines which, just before the point where this photo is taken, emerge from the Rodalies & Renfe tunnel leading to El Clot station and onwards.









A CAF CIVIA in FGC colours with the prominent white R from Rodalies de Catalunya on the nose.

















The northern tunnel exit of the new UIC tunnel linking the Sagrera site to Barcelona Sants station and the way trains from for instance Madrid Atocha will continue on their way, after stopping in Sants, towards cities in France and maybe Geneve and northern Italy.









Overhead lines…check, continuously welded rail…check. Soon we will see trains passing here at some speed or the other.









One of the last bumps in completing the UIC line between Barcelona and France have been the couple of pieces of LAV line that had to be finished. Currently the lights are still on red, but this will not last too much longer. Left, one of Renfe’s regional trains, possibly linking Sants with Figueras Vilafant, where until April 2013 travelers to France will still have to change onto a TGV Duplex to continue their trip onwards to France.









The whole site from the other bridge crossing it. What we see here, I think, is the top of the tube which carries L9 towards its current last station, Sagrera Meridiana. At some stage(why name dates if they are only broken) L9 and L4 of the Barcelona Metro will call at Sagrera TAV, an interchange stations that potentially will see a lot of footfall as Sagrera station is planned as Barcelona’s main rail hub. Currently computer-controlled L9 trains pass the Sagrera TAV station without stopping.









The white arch bridge is the Pont de Treball, where the first set of photos was taken from.









The two tracks in the middle are the UIC ones coming from the LAV tunnel under Carrer de Mallorca etc. At some stage all this will be covered, and to the left you can see the start of that part of the project. Below what it looks like from the side.

















Another Rodalies train passing Sagrera, this one an older CAF train still painted in the old Cercanias colours. The construction to the left is probably the start of one of the concourses crossing the tracks in the future, allowing the two sides of Barcelona to get closer together.









As people were even working today, let’s hope all this building will actually lead us towards having on of Europe’s better rail hubs within our lifetimes. Hope you enjoyed the photos.


----------



## Neb81

Great pictures, Xoser


----------



## 437.001

From www.tranvia.org.

* DROOL. NOW. IT´S AN ORDER: A TGV Duplex and an AVE 103 in Figueres-Vilafant station.* 

:drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:

Till April, none of the two can go further than this station due to mutual lack of homologation.
The line is almost finished, and will certainly be finished by the end of the month.



forumer u-bahn @ www.tranvia.org said:


>


----------



## Suburbanist

AVEs look so much nicer than TGVs IMHO....

AVEs are sleek and have an amazing design.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> AVEs look so much nicer than TGVs IMHO....
> 
> AVEs are sleek and have an amazing design.


The first AVEs were TGVs...


----------



## mrmoopt

Does anyone have updates on service level provision, and what type of stock has been ordered?

Will this line be available for open access?


----------



## K_

cal_t said:


> Does anyone have updates on service level provision, and what type of stock has been ordered?


Currently it looks like we'll have
3 or 4 return trips Barcelona - Paris. Some might extended to Madrid.
1 return trip Barcelona - Marseille
1 return trip Barcelona - Geneve
1 return trip Barcelona - Toulouse

Rolling stock will be TGV Duplex Dasye, and refurbished Renfe AVE class 100. 



> Will this line be available for open access?


Yes. The part between Figueres and Perpignan is even owned by a private operator...


----------



## Sunfuns

How about medium distance trains to Figueres/Perpignan? Will there be any on the new line? Unlike the cities mentioned those places would be close enough for frequent traffic.


----------



## alserrod

As far as I know... one Madrid-Paris only


----------



## FM 2258

Suburbanist said:


> AVEs look so much nicer than TGVs IMHO....
> 
> AVEs are sleek and have an amazing design.


Isn't that a Velaro in the above picture? I love the look of the Velaro, best looking high speed train in my opinion.


----------



## AlexNL

In my opinion the Velaro's design is very sleek indeed (except Velaro D), but the New Pendolino (ETR 600) is even better looking if you ask me. Renfe has them too, they're S/114 a.k.a. Avant.


----------



## Suburbanist

It would also be nice so see some V250 running there, if only other railway companies gave AnsaldoBreda another chance (which they probably won't, at least on high-speed rolling stock)


----------



## Sopomon

Suburbanist said:


> It would also be nice so see some V250 running there, if only other railway companies gave AnsaldoBreda another chance (which they probably won't, at least on high-speed rolling stock)


You've gotta be trolling, seriously.

Or, an AB employee, which then makes you absolutely hilarious.


----------



## Suburbanist

> I think they should allow it. It would be ridiculous not to, particularly on Paris-Madrid route. If they want to avoid undercutting each other then* they can agree that Barcelona-Madrid on TGV always costs the same as with AVE and the same in France*. That's exactly how it's managed with TGV's and ICE's continuing from Basel to Zurich.


That is cartel, should not be allowed at all by competition authorities in Bruxelles!!!


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> What do you mean? :?


I meant that 8 Paris-Madrid trains a day might be too many.



437.001 said:


> Increase of capacity? :? I don´t get this, sorry.


Girona is adding those 8 trains + future international services presumably also stopping there to whatever number of connections they have already on the classical line. Zaragoza will get more trains as well even if, as I learned from alserrod, it is already rather well connected. 

Am I missing something here?



437.001 said:


> That would be reasonable for a Paris-Madrid, but I´m not so sure for a Paris-Barcelona, especially during the high season. Between Montpellier and Barcelona they can become crowded.


If they become crowded that means that more trains is exactly what's needed. Do you know in how many stations TGV stops between Montpellier and Perpignan? 



437.001 said:


> Not just 'perhaps', that´s exactly the plan.


It's a good plan then! Stupid one would have been stopping nowhere in Spain except Barcelona.


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> That is cartel, should not be allowed at all by competition authorities in Bruxelles!!!


I simplified it a bit - technically it's not what happens in Switzerland either. Whenever TGV or ICE reaches Basel train crews are changed and further travel is operated by SBB with Swiss personnel. Basically SBB rents those trains for domestic travel. SNCF and Deutsche Bahn have nothing to do with passengers which don't cross borders.


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> I meant that 8 Paris-Madrid trains a day might be too many.


Plans talked about only one Paris-Madrid. There will be more somewhere-Barcelona... and shuttle with more than one train per hour




> Girona is adding those 8 trains + future international services presumably also stopping there to whatever number of connections they have already on the classical line. Zaragoza will get more trains as well even if, as I learned from alserrod, it is already rather well connected.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Nothing but what Girona will have is enlarging eight trains. This is... no current service today.

They are Madrid-Barcelona current trains enlarged to Figueres. So then, almost all of them call at Tarragona and Lleida and some of them at Calatayud and Guadalajara.

I remember that with current services it is possible to make a Calatayud-Figueres-Paris but the return journey will require one shuttle more, for instance




> If they become crowded that means that more trains is exactly what's needed. Do you know in how many stations TGV stops between Montpellier and Perpignan?


Today only at Valence too. They do not stop at Lyon but expected in Spring


----------



## Sunfuns

alserrod said:


> Nothing but what Girona will have is enlarging eight trains. This is... no current service today.


No service from Madrid or Zaragoza, but isn't there a classical line to Barcelona with somewhat frequent trains?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I meant that 8 Paris-Madrid trains a day might be too many.


Of course. 
Not only would that be too many, but there would also bne the time contstraint, Paris to Madrid will be 10 hours. 



> Girona is adding those 8 trains + future international services presumably also stopping there to whatever number of connections they have already on the classical line. Zaragoza will get more trains as well even if, as I learned from alserrod, it is already rather well connected.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


No, it was I that missed something. 



> If they become crowded that means that more trains is exactly what's needed. Do you know in how many stations TGV stops between Montpellier and Perpignan?


Narbonne, and maybe (not now) Béziers, Agde and Sète. 



> It's a good plan then! Stupid one would have been stopping nowhere in Spain except Barcelona.


Well, that could be an idea too, but depending on the timetable.


----------



## alserrod

After HSL they removed almost all trains from the classical line.

In fact, when opening in 2003, Madrid-Lerida services were made with trains from line Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Barcelona services (earlier Zaragoza-Madrid and Zaragoza-Barcelona too and conversely late evening) with the same Long Distance trains that the day before were in the classical line.

In the classical line Madrid-Zaragoza today it remains a new regional train that makes few calls and it is used for those towns without HS station.

In the Zaragoza-Barcelona via Caspe it remains the same number of trains (despite two of them will have a shorter journey in several months). Two of them are Zaragoza-Barcelona but with calls in ALL little villages. It can take about five hours point to point.
In fact, they joined one of them with the Madrid-Zaragoza so we have a Madrid-Zaragoza with just five stops in the classical line and Zaragoza-Barcelona calling everywhere, everywhere...

On the other hand, Zaragoza-Barcelona via Lleida has no trains. They increased Zaragoza-Lleida from one to three daily regional trains when HSL and there are more services Lleida-Barcelona


Madrid to Zaragoza has almost the same trains than Zaragoza-Barcelona. You have to erase the trains coming from Andalucia or the Alvia trains from the north and add one (two on weekends) with destination Huesca.
They depart at XX:30 from Madrid.


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> Today only at Valence too. They do not stop at Lyon but expected in Spring


Valence is not between Perpignan and Montpellier.


----------



## alserrod

sorry, I understood about all calls


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> I think they shouldn´t, at least not in the beginning.
> We´ll see though, Barcelona-Paris and Barcelona-Geneva are two very juicy routes in high season, so I guess there´ll be a high demand.


The Geneve - Barcelona service will basically be the current Geneve - Montpellier service extended to Barcelona. This train used to connect with a Talgo in Montpellier and was the normal daytime connection from Switzerland to Spain. 
I am quite sure that tickets between any pairs of French stations will still be sold on this train.


----------



## alserrod

This will be the message given in AVE trains destination Figueres V if it has a connection with a TGV.

Message will be given in Spanish, French, Catalan and English

"
Buenos días, señores viajeros bienvenidos a bordo del tren AVE con destino Barcelona Sants y Figueres
Vilafant, con enlace internacional a TGV destino Perpignan, Narbonne, Montpellier, Nimes y Paris Gare de
Lyon.
En sus butacas podrán conectar los auriculares para la audición de música y vídeo. En la programación de
hoy les ofreceremos: __________.
Les informamos que se encuentra a su disposición el servicio de cafetería.
Les recordamos que a su llegada a Zaragoza y Barcelona Sants, con su billete de trenes AVE-Larga Distancia,
podrá utilizar el servicio de los trenes de Cercanías, una vez haya sido validado en las máquinas destinadas a
dicho efecto o en taquillas. Para más información pueden dirigirse a los centros de servicios al cliente de
nuestras estaciones.
La tripulación queda a su disposición y en nombre de Renfe les desea un feliz viaje
"


arriving to Figueres they will say where you will find the TGV.


All AVE trains in Spain have messages in Spanish and English. 
If they go to a city with another official language they tell it in that language. For instance, all Madrid-Barcelona AVE trains have the message in Catalan, but the Madrid-Huesca (common journey until Zaragoza) do not.

If train has connection, French will be used in second place. If it has no international connection French will be used in third place.

You can find more information in this document
Buenos días, señores viajeros bienvenidos a bordo del tren AVE con destino Barcelona Sants y Figueres
Vilafant, con enlace internacional a TGV destino Perpignan, Narbonne, Montpellier, Nimes y Paris Gare de
Lyon.
En sus butacas podrán conectar los auriculares para la audición de música y vídeo. En la programación de
hoy les ofreceremos: __________.
Les informamos que se encuentra a su disposición el servicio de cafetería.
Les recordamos que a su llegada a Zaragoza y Barcelona Sants, con su billete de trenes AVE-Larga Distancia,
podrá utilizar el servicio de los trenes de Cercanías, una vez haya sido validado en las máquinas destinadas a
dicho efecto o en taquillas. Para más información pueden dirigirse a los centros de servicios al cliente de
nuestras estaciones.
La tripulación queda a su disposición y en nombre de Renfe les desea un feliz viaje


----------



## 437.001

Hi there. 

Here are the *definitive timetables Paris-Barcelona-Madrid from January 9 2013 till March 31 2013*:


*Paris > Figueres-Vilafant > Barcelona > Madrid*

*TGV 9710/1 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Paris-Gare de Lyon 07:15* > Nîmes 10:06/10:09 > Montpellier-St Roch 10:34/10:41 > Narbonne 11:32/11:35 > Perpignan 12:08/12:16 > 
*Figueres-Vilafant 12:41*. 

Then, transfer at Figueres-Vilafant to:

*AVE 3142 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Figueres-Vilafant 12:55* > Girona 13:08/13:10 > *Barcelona-Sants 13:48/14:00* > Camp de Tarragona 14:31/14:33 > Lleida-Pirineus 14:57/14:59 > 
Zaragoza-Delicias 15:40/15:43 > Guadalajara-Yebes 16:42/16:43 > *Madrid-Atocha 17:10*

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*TGV 9714/5 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Paris-Gare de Lyon 14:07* > Valence-TGV 16:19/16:22 > Nîmes 17:06/17:09 > Montpellier-St Roch 17:34/17:41 > Narbonne 18:32/18:35 > 
Perpignan 19:08/19:16 > *Figueres-Vilafant 19:40* 

Then, transfer at Figueres-Vilafant to:

*AVE 3212 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Figueres-Vilafant 19:55* > Girona 20:08/20:10 > *Barcelona-Sants 20:48/21:00* > Camp de Tarragona 21:31/21:33 > Lleida-Pirineus 21:57/21:59 > 
Zaragoza-Delicias 22:40/22:43 > *Madrid-Atocha 00:02*

================================================================================================================

*Madrid > Barcelona > Figueres-Vilafant > Paris*

*AVE 3053 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Madrid-Atocha 05:50* > Zaragoza-Delicias 07:05/07:06 > Lleida-Pirineus 07:48/07:50 > Camp de Tarragona 08:17/08:19 > *Barcelona-Sants 08:55/09:05* > Girona 09:42/09:44 > *Figueres-Vilafant 09:58* 

Then, transfer at Figueres-Vilafant to:

*TGV 9702/3 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Figueres-Vilafant 10:20* > Perpignan 10:44/10:51 > Narbonne 11:24/11:27 > Montpellier-St Roch 12:17/12:24 > Nîmes 12:49/12:52 > 
Valence-TGV 13:38/13:41 > *Paris-Gare de Lyon 15:53*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*AVE 3333 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Madrid-Atocha 13:10* > Guadajajara-Yebes 13:33/13:34 > Zaragoza-Delicias 14:31/14:32 > Camp de Tarragona 15:29/15:31 > *Barcelona-Sants 16:06/16:15* > Girona 16:52/16:54 > *Figueres-Vilafant 17:08* 

Then, transfer at Figueres-Vilafant to:

*TGV 9706/7 (Mondays to Sundays)* 
*Figueres-Vilafant 17:20* > Perpignan 17:44/17:51 > Narbonne 18:24/18:27 > Montpellier-St Roch 19:17/19:24 > Nîmes 19:49/19:52 > *Paris-Gare de Lyon 22:45*


----------



## 33Hz

Is there an official link for the times?


One other question: If the TGV is not certified to run in Spain, how is it legally getting to Figueres?


----------



## 437.001

33Hz said:


> Is there an official link for the times?


Urghhh... yes, but it´d be too complex. :nuts: 
This I´ve made is like reconstructing a puzzle. :dunno: 
Trust this timetables though, they´re official.

In any case: www.renfe.com and www.sncf.com



> One other question: If the TGV is not certified to run in Spain, how is it legally getting to Figueres?


Because the section between Figueres and Perpignan is not "Spanish" nor "French", meaning that it´s a "neutral" private section (called TP-Ferro), which doesn´t belong to either the Spanish nor French national network, a bit like the Channel Tunnel. They do enter Figueres station (which acts like a "frontier" station in this case), but they don´t go further than that station.


----------



## Sunfuns

What is the technical difference if any between the line on the French side and the new Spanish line?


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Sunfuns said:


> What is the technical difference if any between the line on the French side and the new Spanish line?


Electricity, for one. On Spanish side, 25 000 V, 50 Hz. On French side, 1500 V, DC.


----------



## OriK

There is no HSL in the french side so they use 3000 Vcc and it's 25000 Vac in the Spanish side.

And probably the signaling on the French side is the French standard while on the Spanish side ERTMS (European standard) is used...


----------



## alserrod

OriK said:


> There is no HSL in the french side so they use 3000 Vcc and it's 25000 Vac in the Spanish side.
> 
> And probably the signaling on the French side is the French standard while on the Spanish side ERTMS (European standard) is used...


I'm not really sure but I think they will start with the ASFA system prior to ERTMS.

In other streches in this line it always happened in this way


----------



## 437.001

OriK said:


> There is no HSL in the french side so they use 3000 Vcc and it's 25000 Vac in the Spanish side.


No, in France they do not use 3000 V between Perpignan and Nimes, they use 1500 V. ON the French HSL they use 25,000 V too.


----------



## 437.001

Cab ride on the new Barcelona-Girona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.
Inaugurated tomorrow, service starts on January the 9th.

The one who filmed could have been more... still. :lol:


----------



## MK Tom

Do people on here think the expansion of the Spanish high speed network will eventually lead to gauge conversion of some of the traditional lines?


----------



## zazo1

MK Tom said:


> Do people on here think the expansion of the Spanish high speed network will eventually lead to gauge conversion of some of the traditional lines?


In the future it's expected to change all the network gauge of the country, probably in 20 years by a cost of 8000 mill €.


----------



## AlexNL

MK Tom said:


> Do people on here think the expansion of the Spanish high speed network will eventually lead to gauge conversion of some of the traditional lines?


Only where it's really necessary. Given that Spain is a big country and has a big railway network (11,730 km of broad gauge tracks) and Renfe (and in the future: other operators?) have a vast amount of broad gauge rolling stock, I don't see a nationwide conversion happening.

I do expect to see more "double gauge" track: three tracks to enable running on normal gauge (1435 mm) and on the Iberian gauge (1688mm) so that conventional Iberian trains and AVE trains can use the same tracks.


----------



## Ribarca

437.001 said:


> Of course they will, and the AVE will ride into France too.
> That´ll happen in April.


Thanks, will it be about 50/50? There won't be a joint venture like for example the Thalys with its own trains?

Any plans to take it yourself and take some photos?


----------



## gincan

Woonsocket54 said:


> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ine-opens-between-barcelona-and-figueres.html.


Long term the aim should be minimum 10-15 million passengers on this corridor including international trains. Girona-Barcelona regional HSR trains alone could possibly reach 10.000+ daily commuters, today it is around 4000 which is pathetic considering the global commuter traffic between these two cities.


----------



## OriK

AlexNL said:


> Only where it's really necessary. Given that Spain is a big country and has a big railway network (11,730 km of broad gauge tracks) and Renfe (and in the future: other operators?) have a vast amount of broad gauge rolling stock, I don't see a nationwide conversion happening.
> 
> I do expect to see more "double gauge" track: three tracks to enable running on normal gauge (1435 mm) and on the Iberian gauge (1688mm) so that conventional Iberian trains and AVE trains can use the same tracks.


Double gauge tracks will probably be a transition solution in some areas...

Currently there are 4.620 km of railways ready for the change... since the decission of building new HS railways in standard gauge was made, evey railway renovation on iberian gauge uses versatile sleepers:

Versatile sleepers: http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/alco2100/3-1.jpg

Versatile sleeper configured to standard gauge and standard gauge sleeper: http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/TintinMadrid/28-29AGO07/PATQ-CVRS/PATQ29SEP11.jpg

Design of versatile sleeper: http://www.adif.es/es_ES//img/fichas/trazadotp.jpg

These sleepers allow to change the gauge easily and fastly (a complete line in few days).


----------



## 437.001

MK Tom said:


> Do people on here think the expansion of the Spanish high speed network will eventually lead to gauge conversion of some of the traditional lines?


It will, at last!!! 

The classic upgraded line between Vandellos and Valencia will have no 3rd rail, but it will entirely change gauge between Tarragona and Castellon.

3rd rail will be added on the classic line between Tarragona and Castellbisbal (near Barcelona), and between Castellon and Valencia.

Standard gauge will be expanded further south to Cartagena, involving the HSL between Valencia and La Encina for mixed traffic, a 3rd rail between La Encina and Alicante, gauge change between Alicante and Murcia, and another 3rd rail between Murcia and Cartagena.

The schedule by the government says that it shoud be done by 2016, but we consider that optimistic.


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> Only where it's really necessary. Given that Spain is a big country and has a big railway network (11,730 km of broad gauge tracks) and Renfe (and in the future: other operators?) have a vast amount of broad gauge rolling stock, I don't see a nationwide conversion happening.


It could be made, most of the trains built since the 1990s can be switched to standard gauge, whilst older trains would need new bogies, or replacement.



> I do expect to see more "double gauge" track: three tracks to enable running on normal gauge (1435 mm) and on the Iberian gauge (1688mm) so that conventional Iberian trains and AVE trains can use the same tracks.


The 3rd rail can be embarrassing for exploitation. Doesn´t allow for good speeds.


----------



## 437.001

Ribarca said:


> Thanks, will it be about 50/50? There won't be a joint venture like for example the Thalys with its own trains?


It already exists, it´s called Elipsos, and has been operating the Trenhotel night trains between Spain and France, Switzerland and Italy for long.

It´s simply that each company will have its own trains, a bit like in the LGV Est, where you can see TGV in Frankfurt and Munich, and ICE in Paris.



> Any plans to take it yourself and take some photos?


I don´t really take photos. Bad hands for that, sorry. 
But I´ll take it in short time, of course I will.


----------



## alserrod

In my humble opinion, Spain will take a long time to change classical gauges to international ones.

Anyway, any strech in classical network refurbished or just repaired has variable sleepers as it has been said. This is: they are set with current Spanish gauge but with the possibility of a quick change to international gauge (it will not take long time to change a full line).

Besides, HSL Ourense-Santiago-A Coruña has standard high speed characteristics but Spanish gauge. Why?. It is not linked with the rest of the network so, in order to avoid changing gauges for any train it was opened with Spanish gauge but it will be easy to change to international one the day that Ourense will be linked to the rest of the network.

Furthermore, almost all trains bought in the last decade (I think that all of them except those specific for commuter or something like that) will have the possibility of changing gauges.

HS lanes are growing in Spain and, besides the movement improvement it means, it has also a gauge problem. Almost all long distance train journeys cross at least partially by a high speed line and that means two gauges.

Nevertheless there is another problem: electricity. Having two different voltages, trains must be ready for changing them. HSL have the European standards. Classical lines do not.

Finally, it is a strange situacion. On one hand you can see the border with France with an interesting high speed line network growing and an international gauge.
On the other hand you can see the border with Portugal where the Iberian gauge remains and no plans for high speed line or international gauge are ready.


----------



## K_

alserrod said:


> Nevertheless there is another problem: electricity. Having two different voltages, trains must be ready for changing them.


That is largely a non issue nowadays. Building rolling stock that is capable of functioning under both AC and DC is a trivial exercise that every rolling stock manufacturer nowadays has mastered.


----------



## neuromancer

56826987


----------



## Ribarca

What propaganda that video. Quite rich if you deliver a train connection with a delay of a few decades. Nicely made video though.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

^^ Better late than never. Some pro and some anti propaganda are taking place (best ever, took so long etc.) I am happy the money our northern-european brethren have shared with us has been invested partially in trying to upgrade our infrastructures and bring them up to an average European standard.


----------



## el palmesano




----------



## el palmesano

437.001 said:


> Cab ride on the new Barcelona-Girona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.
> Inaugurated tomorrow, service starts on January the 9th.
> 
> The one who filmed could have been more... still. :lol:


great video


----------



## 437.001

Well, well, weeeell... problems ahead. :naughty:

Looks like France wants to play a card game with Spain.

*No homologation for HSR in France for the Alstom Renfe S-100 trains, only for classic lines*.
*Aaaand... at the same time, application by Sncf to operate HSR in Spain??*

Bad game. Overplayed hand.

Or, in common language, they have done it again, like they tried to do to the Germans, and keep on doing to the Italians, and the British.

The problem is that we might have other ideas about it.


----------



## makita09

^^ Sorry I don't understand, whats happened? Are the French resisting having Spanish high speed trains certified for use on their LGVs (in contradiction of EU directives)?


----------



## 437.001

makita09 said:


> ^^ Sorry I don't understand, whats happened? Are the French resisting having Spanish high speed trains certified for use on their LGVs (in contradiction of EU directives)?


It´s not official yet, but it seems so, according to a press article.
Perhaps I ´ve been too fast in my reaction though.
But if it were the case, that´d be annoying.

We are not to put them any problem to operate in Spain (or at least it´s what we know), as long as we don´t have a problem to operate in France.
That is, we´re supposed to have some kind of mutual thing, they operate this service, we operate that other one. 

But it looks (according to that source) like they´re making things difficult for the homologation of the class AVE 100 trains, which is weird, because this time it´s not like it can be perceived like if it´s an 'anti-French industry thing', since they´re Alstom trains, some of them built in France, others in Spain, but Alstom in the end. They´re TGVs actually. 

If they did put barriers to that, it would be even more protectionist than any other case.

Wait and see, though. 

We can do things the wrong way too clown, so I´d better wait till having an official version. Perhaps it´s all a stupid rumour (or perhaps it´s our fault).


----------



## 437.001

Sncf denies officially, scrap that. ^^
That article seems to be inaccurate.
Actually, I didn´t even post it here, but it has appeared on the Spanish forum.


----------



## 437.001

I should answer in Spanish to clarify the point, the translation into English loses its meaning. So...

Now, back to topic.


----------



## sotavento

Suburbanist said:


> Spain did excellent use of EU funds and local allocated to infrastructure compared to what ohter countries like Ireland and Greece did. It's got an impressive network of fast highways and railways.
> 
> This excuse of investing in local service is bogus, high speed train serve different needs than a Cercanias. It is like comparing local boulevards with controlled access autopistas





Ribarca said:


> To use your analogy. What is the purpose of traveling very fast over highways if you then get stuck in the city because the local infrastructure is bad.
> 
> I'm not making the complaints up. Scientists who studied this (like Germa Bel, http://www.sussex-academic.com/sa/titles/history/bel.htm) come up with this.



Spanish HSR network is radial and most routes cross great SECTIONS OF VOID distances to reach from METRO AREA CENTER to METRO AREA CENTER. And by metro area we mean regions with at least 1 million people each.

:cheers:



Our local (portuguese) HSR network serves 100% of the cities with population above 50.000 hab. with a single 400km route. And those above 25.000 are also served with AP/IC services at 160-200 km/h. Go figure!!!

Portbou-Barcelona-Valencia-Alacant/Murcia is in a situation similar to the portuguese/galician networks. Too much and too small to serve over much shorter distances than in the meseta.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ An hypothetical Valencia-Zaragoza HSL would serve only Teruel as intermediate point


----------



## zazo1

437.001 said:


> That´s two routes, not one.
> 
> If I added to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete-Alicante
> 
> and
> 
> Madrid-Cuenca-Albacete-Elche-Orihuela-Murcia
> 
> ...then I think it´s clear that it´s the second.
> But we´ll have to wait for the HSL to open to see it.


¿? It's only one route, called: 'Nuevo acceso a Andalucía' (Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Córdoba, Sevilla, Antequera, Málaga, and other southern cities), you find four HSL routes (full or partially) 
The eastern one: (Cuenca, Albacete, Requena-Utiel, Valencia and Alicante in a future)
The northeastern: (Guadalajara, Calatayud, Zaragoza, Lleida, Tarragona, Barcelona, Girona, Figueres, Paris)
The northern: (Segovia, Valladolid, The north cities)

Each route or corridor has many different conections, so, obviously, Madrid-Málaga and Madrid-Sevilla are different conections, but in the same network and counted like that..


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> Valencia-Barcelona is NOT the 2nd most important route in Spain.
> That´s Madrid-Valencia.


This is quite debatable, population wise, Barcelona-Valencia corridor serve also Tarragona/Reus Castellon/Sagunto and a number of resorts along the Mediterranean coast. Madrid being the business hub of Spain is more important for the city of Valencia but that corridor is empty, Cuenca is smaller than Villareal. Madrid-Valencia HSR service struggle to reach 2 million passengers, this is IMO shockingly low for a 1H 30 min service between two cites combining 8 million inhabitants.

Passenger-wise, the Mediterranean corridor has probably double or triple the potential travel market to that of the Madrid-Valencia/Albacete/Alicante/Murcia one. The Mediterranean corridor is just so much more densely populated and also serve as a tourist destination reachable by HSR from France, northern Italy and parts of Switzerland/Germany.

And we have not even begun to mention the freight side, which is topic on its own.


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> This is quite debatable, population wise, Barcelona-Valencia corridor serve also Tarragona/Reus Castellon/Sagunto and a number of resorts along the Mediterranean coast. Madrid being the business hub of Spain is more important for the city of Valencia but that corridor is empty, Cuenca is smaller than Villareal. *Madrid-Valencia HSR service struggle to reach 2 million passengers, this is IMO shockingly low for a 1H 30 min service between two cites combining 8 million inhabitants*.


That´s because of the fares, too expensive. 
These days, Renfe is starting to experiment with the yield management system, so it´s likely that soon fares will be more attractive.



> Passenger-wise, the Mediterranean corridor has probably double or triple the potential travel market to that of the Madrid-Valencia/Albacete/Alicante/Murcia one. *The Mediterranean corridor is just so much more densely populated and also serve as a tourist destination reachable by HSR from France, northern Italy and parts of Switzerland/Germany*.


You just can´t pretend the HSR to stop at each and every beach resort, can you?

Tourists that can reach that area will keep on doing it mostly by plane or car, except the French and a bit the Swiss (the Swiss are not the tourists that come to Spain the most, and in the end it´s a small country). Germany is already too far away to provide more than two trains/day.

Paris-Murcia must be more than 1,500 km.

Besides, you can´t build a HSL for tourists.



> And we have not even begun to mention the freight side, which is topic on its own.


Yes, but freight is much less dependant of the travel time than passenger trains.
And freight doesn´t need a HSL, does it? What freight needs is no different gauge, that´s all.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Besides, you can´t build a HSL for tourists.


Building just for that would be way too expensive, but depending how "tourist" is defined it's a significant segment of HSR traffic.


----------



## OriK

For those who say that the radial system doesn't have any sense in Spain... what do you suggest?

This is a map showing the pop. density of each municipality:









As you can observe... there is almost nothing in the middle with the exception of Madrid. This not justifies a fully radial system as the coast is also very populated, but it justifies the radial base.

This is a map with the HS lines (blue) and planned (yellow, ...long-term, not comprehensive, not complete, some unconfirmed lines, some upgrades and planned change of gauge of conventional lines included):









As you observe... it won't be fully radial but... why doing the radial part first... and the Madrid-Sevile?

As you can observe Andalucia is more or less densely populated... in fact it's more populated than Catalonia! And with a new access to Andalucia you can cover a lot of highly densely populated cities just branching the line at the Andalucian side (allowing also transversal trips within Andalucia).

Probably the Madrid-Barcelona line would have been a better first experience, but the government wanted to show the new Spain to the world... and Madrid-Sevilla was just a much easier and faster option.










Later the 90's crisis stopped or slowed down the construction of new lines until the 00's... but they were able to upgrade the Barcelona-Tarragona-Castello-Valencia-Alicante line to up to 220Km/h.

But first you have to understand why Spain is developing such a high speed network... in the 80's, when Spain was starting to wake up from a looong dictatorship and several economic problems, the rail network showed to be anachronistic, unefficient and with an expensive maintenance... then they started to plan how to modernize the network and discovered that making new lines was cheaper than upgrading the old lines... furthermore, making high speed lines was not much expensiver so they decided to make a high speed network with the trial of the Madrid-Seville line... 

Later they observed another problem... the different gauge was a nightmare in the international connections... so they planned to change the gauge in all the network, and they arrived just in time to change the Madrid-Seville project... but later they found that the cost of the change was unaffordable so they planned something more realistic... they would put new (high speed) lines where needed (where it was a better option than renewing the line) throwing away most of the existing conventional lines... and later they would change the survivor lines... for making that easier and cheaper in the future, they started to install polyvalent sleepers on those lines when maintenance was needed.

At some point in the future, the Spanish network will migrate to standard gauge with few remanent of other gauges (like metric) and the survivor conventional lines will be used to meshing the network and then hopefully the government will put all their emphasis in improving the local and medium distance services.

So the mediterranean corridor, having some of the best conventional stretches wasn't put in the top list of priorities...


----------



## Ribarca

I agree with you to a large extent.



OriK said:


> Probably the Madrid-Barcelona line would have been a better first experience, but the government wanted to show the new Spain to the world... and Madrid-Sevilla was just a much easier and faster option.


Wasn't it perhaps a political decision with Felipe Gonzalez from Andalucia at the helm?

Andalucia is very populated as you say but it's very large ands nowhere near the density of Catalonia. Connecting to Barcelona alone allows millions of people access to the network.




OriK said:


> So the mediterranean corridor, having some of the best conventional stretches wasn't put in the top list of priorities...


This is my main gripe since in terms of exports, the harbors and industrial output of the Mediterranean basin this line has so much potential. In any other country this would have been one of the first lines to be built is my opinion.

This is what Germa Bel (that pseudo scientist reasons is the root of the radial thinking (and not economic thinking) in Spain. For being a pseudo scientist it's remarkable that he gets published in some of the most important economic Journals in the word.

http://www.ub.edu/irea/working_papers/2010/201016.pdf

_Thus, the map of the King’s Highways instituted by Felipe V was consolidated as the radial road map of Spain by means of the 1761 decree, which established the six core axes with their six main roads. Gómez Mendoza (2001, p. 349) describes the reasons behind this design as follows: “By means of a network of this type, the Bourbon legislators sought to satisfy administrative objectives (post and information), military, and of public order (the supply of goods to Madrid). They ignored purely economic objectives”. In fact, the question of efficiency and the contribution of the transport system to productivity and the economy were neglected in favor of administrative and political objectives (Madrazo, 1984, pp. 62-63 and 159). Political and government interests were the priority, and a model was born that would become permanent in Spain._


----------



## OriK

Ribarca said:


> I agree with you to a large extent.
> Wasn't it perhaps a political decision with Felipe Gonzalez from Andalucia at the helm?
> 
> Andalucia is very populated as you say but it's very large ands nowhere near the density of Catalonia. Connecting to Barcelona alone allows millions of people access to the network.


It's possible, but have in mind that Spain had 2 big international events in 1992... one in Sevilla (Expo'92) and the other in Barcelona (The Olympic Games) so the time was an important constraint...

West Andalucia is far more populated than East Andalucia but still it's true that Catalonia is more densely populated... I don't have doubts that both solutions were good but geographically the Sevillian option was more accessible both economically and "engineeringly".

Furthermore Andalucia has always been one of the poorest regions of Spain so it was a good chance to boost them.

Anyway it has a possitive side for Barcelona as it won a better and mature HS Line approved for speeds up to 350Km/h (and it's said that the outline can accept even higher speeds) instead of the 300Km/h with a lot of slower sections of the Madrid-Sevilla line. 



Ribarca said:


> This is my main gripe since in terms of exports, the harbors and industrial output of the Mediterranean basin this line has so much potential. In any other country this would have been one of the first lines to be built is my opinion.


It's really hard to find the balance between investing in degraded areas and investing in promising areas... I think that neither Spain nor most of the autonomies have found a good balance :S

But it can't neither be said that it has been forgotten... and about the harbors... probably most (or the 100%) of rail freight is still in Iberian gauge...



Ribarca said:


> This is what Germa Bel (that pseudo scientist reasons is the root of the radial thinking (and not economic thinking) in Spain. For being a pseudo scientist it's remarkable that he gets published in some of the most important economic Journals in the word.
> 
> http://www.ub.edu/irea/working_papers/2010/201016.pdf
> 
> _Thus, the map of the King’s Highways instituted by Felipe V was consolidated as the radial road map of Spain by means of the 1761 decree, which established the six core axes with their six main roads. Gómez Mendoza (2001, p. 349) describes the reasons behind this design as follows: “By means of a network of this type, the Bourbon legislators sought to satisfy administrative objectives (post and information), military, and of public order (the supply of goods to Madrid). They ignored purely economic objectives”. In fact, the question of efficiency and the contribution of the transport system to productivity and the economy were neglected in favor of administrative and political objectives (Madrazo, 1984, pp. 62-63 and 159). Political and government interests were the priority, and a model was born that would become permanent in Spain._


Maybe that's the root of the actual situation but we are talking about present... and now the radial system as the core of the netwok makes a lot of sense... for example our motorway network followed that system and now that is a mature system you can find a lot of cross-motorways... it's not only radial anymore but like a "spider web".


----------



## alserrod

In 1986 the less used railways in Spain where closed to traffic definitely. Since then they just focused in the most used ones.

One of them, near to be collapsed, was the Madrid-Seville. Since southern Castilla La Mancha (Santa Cruz de Mudela) to Seville there is a single rail and the pass from La Mancha to Andalucia was a bottleneck.
As far as refurbishment was very expensive it was planned to have a new branch from Brazatortas (near Puertollano) to Cordoba. The full plan will include a single refurbishment Madrid-Manzanares. Double rail Manzanares-Puertollano, incluiding catenary Ciudad Real - Puertollano, new HSL with Spanish gauge Puertollano-Cordoba and finally double rail Cordoba - Sevilla.

Being under construction, decission to have international gauge was taken... even if it took 21 years to arrive border (just two weeks ago!!). This required to make a new project for Seville-Cordoba and Puertollano-Madrid.
It wasn't easy, and wasn't well done. For instance, in Seville-Cordoba there is a curve in the middle of nowhere just because one company made a stretch considering 10 m away classic line and another one 13 m away there.
From Puertollano to Madrid they made a new station at Ciudad Real but they do not considered to link Toledo. So then, Ciudad Real and Toledo are so near and so difficult to arrive from one city to other, as far as going by train you will see away the nice regional capital but no stopping in the surroundings.

Why was this one the first HSL in Spain?. First reason could be find in a traffic congestion, a new solution proposed and a final decission to full international gauge. We could think that prime minister and second minister, both, were born at Seville too...

Some years later they started the Madrid-Barcelona in the same way. With the Calatayud-Ricla and Zaragoza-Lerida and later full line to Lerida. It was thought to open these two stretches in Spanish gauge and later all the line was under construction. First phase to Lérida, second one to Tarragona, third one to Barcelona and some weeks ago to Figueres, near the border.

Why did they took the decission to run with this project?. Maybe having political support for government from Catalan side could take part.

Things go in this way. Line Cordoba-Malaga was opened by a minister who was born in Malaga. For almost sixteen years we had a president from Valladolid and later from Leon... so think in the lane to Valladolid and enlargements.

Today president is from Galicia... just think in other projects...


Maybe projects that are with no location-relations could be the Basque Y and the Valencia/Alicante lane.


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> *You just can´t pretend the HSR to stop at each and every beach resort, can you?*


It doesn't have to, the stations are already there, all they have to do is to connect them with a HSR line.



437.001 said:


> *Tourists that can reach that area will keep on doing it mostly by plane or car, except the French and a bit the Swiss (the Swiss are not the tourists that come to Spain the most, and in the end it´s a small country). Germany is already too far away to provide more than two trains/day.*


When it comes to tourist, the travel time is not important, the cost of traveling is the main concern, if there was a reliable charter service you would see dozens of trains every day between France/Germany/Holland/Belgium/UK and the Mediterranean coast packed with holiday travelers.



437.001 said:


> *Paris-Murcia must be more than 1,500 km.*


And so? Every year millions of Europeans are willing to spend 12-14 hours in a plane traveling to south east Asia just for the sun, what makes you think spending half of that time on a train would be a problem?



437.001 said:


> *Besides, you can´t build a HSL for tourists.*


Neither were airports or highways built for tourist.


----------



## Suburbanist

gincan said:


> And so? Every year millions of Europeans are willing to spend 12-14 hours in a plane traveling to south east Asia just for the sun, *what makes you think spending half of that time on a train would be a problem*?


Ryanair, Vueling and Easyjet


----------



## makita09

Suburbanist said:


> Economy is a science...


*No. it. is. not.*

Science produces testable and falsifiable hypotheses. Economics does not. It is a more akin to philosophy.

There is not one single formula in all of Economics that does not rely on underived assumptions.

The economy doesn't actually exist, so science cannot EVER describe it.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

makita09 said:


> *No. it. is. not.*
> 
> Science produces testable and falsifiable hypotheses. Economics does not. It is a more akin to philosophy.
> 
> There is not one single formula in all of Economics that does not rely on underived assumptions.
> 
> The economy doesn't actually exist, so science cannot EVER describe it.


^^ x2


----------



## Suburbanist

Economics is an applied science, but still a science. But I'll refrain from this epistemology discussion here

==========================

Will they deploy X-ray machines on Figueres station?

Does someone has a list of stations of HSR service in Spain whose platforms (used for high-speed trains) are sealed, gated or isolated by a check-in control, meaning you cannot go linger there unless you have a ticket?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ An hypothetical Valencia-Zaragoza HSL would serve only Teruel as intermediate point


As far I know some sections of this line have already been upgraded to 200 km/h, but remaining single track and not electrified.


----------



## 437.001

An AVE leaving Cuenca station bound for Valencia, this morning:



eme.o.hache said:


>


----------



## JumpUp

I just found this information (no idea if it's correct):



"Alta Velocidad Barcelona-Francia A partir de Junio se preveé que los TGV Paris-Figueras Prolonguen su recorrido hasta BCN-Sants ademas se preveé la creacion de un TGV Duplex Ginebra-Barcelona 1 servicio Madrid-Paris, y 3 Madrid-Lyon con AVE S-100"

Translated:

June 2013:
1 TGV Barcelona-Geneve (Suisse)
1 train Paris-Madrid (TGV or AVE?)
1 TGV Paris-Barcelona
3 AVE (S-100, old trains) Barcelona-Lyon

I hope this is true and the trains are coming!


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> I just found this information (no idea if it's correct):
> 
> 
> 
> "Alta Velocidad Barcelona-Francia A partir de Junio se preveé que los TGV Paris-Figueras Prolonguen su recorrido hasta BCN-Sants ademas se preveé la creacion de un TGV Duplex Ginebra-Barcelona 1 servicio Madrid-Paris, y 3 Madrid-Lyon con AVE S-100"
> 
> Translated:
> 
> June 2013:
> 1 TGV Barcelona-Geneve (Suisse)
> 1 train Paris-Madrid (TGV or AVE?)
> 1 TGV Paris-Barcelona
> 3 AVE (S-100, old trains) Barcelona-Lyon
> 
> I hope this is true and the trains are coming!


*Wrong source*. Right forum (www.tranvia.org), but wrong forumer (alberto200, isn´t it?). 
Pay attention in that forum to the forumers cidaddosante (who´s not on SSC), canyailla, jotaerre, and Robertinho (who _are_ on SSC, the three of them, though canyailla is not a regular poster here), the four of them are very reliable inside sources, not that one you quoted.

The forumer who posted this is a troll who keeps on posting false things for reasons only he knows.
I´m not saying that this can´t be like he says, perhaps it could actually be like that in the end, but we simply don´t know yet.
Actually, if he keeps on posting nonsense like this, he´ll be banned from that forum sooner than he thinks.

So wrong source.


----------



## Ribarca

makita09 said:


> *No. it. is. not.*
> 
> Science produces testable and falsifiable hypotheses. Economics does not. It is a more akin to philosophy.
> 
> There is not one single formula in all of Economics that does not rely on underived assumptions.
> 
> The economy doesn't actually exist, so science cannot EVER describe it.


Applying that logics there is no science but physics. And even in physics many calculations are based on empirical evidence...

Besides what is economics. Is it Marketing (probably not a science), Macroeconomics, Microeconomic, Finance (e.g derivatives pricing based on formula's from physics), Accounting (not a science), Econometrics etc.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Will they deploy X-ray machines on Figueres station?


I hope they won't, but fear they will.



> Does someone has a list of stations of HSR service in Spain whose platforms (used for high-speed trains) are sealed, gated or isolated by a check-in control, meaning you cannot go linger there unless you have a ticket?


You're planning an attack? 
(just kidding, but don't you think that this is exactly what a would be terrorist would do: Make a list of all stations that are gated, and then choose one that isn't as a target...)


----------



## Suburbanist

K_ said:


> don't you think that this is exactly what a would be terrorist would do: Make a list of all stations that are gated, and then choose one that isn't as a target...)


Solution: gate all stations where HSTs call 

Once they said it woudl be "impossible" to have full x-ray systems on every single airport, today even airfield-with-a-tent serving Ryanair has a security and scanning system in place.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Still inappropriate. Spaniards have experience with terrorists on trains, and still they do not guard all stations.

Besides, the nearest Schengen borders to Spain are... where? La Linea, presumably.

It is said that not all, but some Eurostars have the capability to handle the French 1500 V electricity. And that signalling stops them from passing Brussels.

Are Eurostars technically capable of operating into Spanish railways? If yes, which AVE stations are suitable for entering Ukogbani borders?


----------



## Ribarca

That kind of security is a farce anyway. Real security is a myth. With the French involved in a war there might be more reasons for the French to shore up their security on their side.

On a related note, I watched a feature in the news yesterday on some researcher from Newcastle university who is doing research to safer train where the glass windows stay in one pirce. He was using the Madrid bombings as a case study.


----------



## alserrod

chornedsnorkack said:


> Besides, the nearest Schengen borders to Spain are... where? La Linea, presumably.


Yes,

Non-EU nearest border is at La Seu d'Urgell and Sant Julia de Loria.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Solution: gate all stations where HSTs call


Last time I was in Barcelona Sants I arrived there on a night train that had stopped at a whole slew of small stations, and alighted just oposite a waiting HST. I could just have boarded that without passing a checkpoint... 
If I can spot such opportunities in a few minutes, do you really thing that terrorists won't?


> Once they said it woudl be "impossible" to have full x-ray systems on every single airport, today even airfield-with-a-tent serving Ryanair has a security and scanning system in place.


And any expert will say that they are of very limited use...

This is what you need to know about terrorism:
- Anything that only forces terrorists to change targets and/or tactics is useless. Anything targeted at what they did last time is useless. Do you really think that terrorists will try the same thing they did last time? If a terrorist wants to cause a carnage, all he has to do is now join the long queues at the security checkpoints machines and blow himself up before he gets there.
- The main reason why we are not being blown to bits every day is that terrorism in the West is largely an imaginary threat. There are just not that many terrorist, and most are already on the radar of the intelligence and police services. 

The "liquid" bombes were not stopped at a security checkpoint. Their plot was discovered through old fashioned police work. The confiscation of liquids at airports is in response to a threat that never existed, and is completely ineffective. All it does is inconvenience passengers.

What we need is:
a) good intelligence and police work.
b) good emergency response systems.

As a bonus these help against a far wider range of threats than angering passengers does.


----------



## alserrod

+1

In April 2004 the HSL Madrid-Seville was cut because a bomb. Bomb wasn't in the train but near the rails.

How can security act there?. Are scanners useful?


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> I hope they won't, but fear they will.


They have X-ray machines at Figueres-Vilafant station. 
X-ray machines are becoming just as typicar of Spanish rail, as double-decker red buses of London. :lol:

But I believe that they´re used only for the AVE, not for the TGV.


----------



## 437.001

chornedsnorkack said:


> It is said that not all, but some Eurostars have the capability to handle the French 1500 V electricity. And that signalling stops them from passing Brussels.
> 
> Are Eurostars technically capable of operating into Spanish railways?


IIRC, Eurostars don´t have the ERTMS, so they can´t go any further than Figueres-Vilafant, unless they were equipped with the ERTMS. 
If they were, they could run from Edinburgh to Malaga.



> If yes, which AVE stations are suitable for entering Ukogbani borders?


They all are. There are controls before entering the high-speed platforms of a HSR station.
Only one exception: Tardienta station, on the Saragossa-Huesca HSL, but that station is used a bit by accident, and it´s likely that soon AVEs won´t be stopping there anymore, so that would mean that all Spanish stations are Eurostar-able.


----------



## OriK

alserrod said:


> Yes,
> 
> Non-EU nearest border is at La Seu d'Urgell and Sant Julia de Loria.


And Morocco in Ceuta and Melilla.



alserrod said:


> +1
> 
> In April 2004 the HSL Madrid-Seville was cut because a bomb. Bomb wasn't in the train but near the rails.
> 
> How can security act there?. Are scanners useful?


The security system worked as it detected the bomb before any train got closer....


----------



## makita09

Ribarca said:


> Applying that logics there is no science but physics. And even in physics many calculations are based on empirical evidence...
> 
> Besides what is economics. Is it Marketing (probably not a science), Macroeconomics, Microeconomic, Finance (e.g derivatives pricing based on formula's from physics), Accounting (not a science), Econometrics etc.


All the sciences are physical, be it chemistry, biology, anthropology, whatever, because what they study are physical phenomenon (space, molecules, life). All science is 'based' upon empirical evidence, I have no idea what confusion of concepts could result in a suggestion otherwise. There are a great many people who misapprehend science, as evidenced by this discussion.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

OriK said:


> And Morocco in Ceuta and Melilla.


Yes, but Spain is not connected to Ceuta by railway.


----------



## OriK

chornedsnorkack said:


> Yes, but Spain is not connected to Ceuta by railway.


Ceuta is Spain...

Anyway there is a never ending project to connect Europe and Africa with a tunnel/bridge.... it wouldn't be so long but it's a sismic area....


----------



## alserrod

OriK said:


> Ceuta is Spain...
> 
> Anyway there is a never ending project to connect Europe and Africa with a tunnel/bridge.... it wouldn't be so long but it's a sismic area....


It would be a tunnel and not connecting to Ceuta but with Morocco.
Anyway there's a thread where some forumers explained why it doesn't worth.


----------



## OriK

alserrod said:


> It would be a tunnel and not connecting to Ceuta but with Morocco.
> Anyway there's a thread where some forumers explained why it doesn't worth.


It's unknown if it would be a tunnel or a bridge as there are both kind of proposals.

And we were talking about borders anyway... somebody asked here which were the non-schengen Spanish borders... it's curious that nobody complained about Andorra or Gibraltar (because they don't have a railway connection with Spain) when both places don't even have a single km of railway....


----------



## alserrod

If you cross a country you can move within it without controls. And you can change from railway to bus or to other types of transport.

If you enter Spain by railway, the question about which is the nearest non-Schengen border, the answer will be Gibraltar, and about the non-EU border it will be Andorra.

If we are asking about railway borders only... the answer willl be.... CALAIS!!!!!!


----------



## OriK

alserrod said:


> If you cross a country you can move within it without controls. And you can change from railway to bus or to other types of transport.
> 
> If you enter Spain by railway, the question about which is the nearest non-Schengen border, the answer will be Gibraltar, and about the non-EU border it will be Andorra.
> 
> If we are asking about railway borders only... the answer willl be.... CALAIS!!!!!!


You can take a Ferry to Morocco from Algeciras... the train station and the port are only like 500 meters away... and yes... that port is a non-schengen border. Even Ceuta and Melilla are not fully Schengen...


----------



## alserrod

ok, back to topic


----------



## pobre diablo

Toledo train station:


----------



## alserrod

This week in Spain the first match of football cup semifinals will be played. Matches are At.Madrid-Sevilla and R.Madrid-FC Barcelona. (thursday 22:00 and wednesday 21:00).

Renfe has prepared two special trains Madrid-Sevilla for thursday and Madrid-Barcelona for wednesday. If some supporter want to travel, he can return in that special train.

It is expected to finish at 23:00 match on wednesday and train will depart at 00:15 arriving to Barcelona at 02:45
For thursday, match will finish about 00:00, will depart at 01:15 and will arrive to Seville at 03:45


----------



## 437.001

AVE through Calatayud station:


----------



## alserrod

Direction Madrid. Back in the camera it will be the main station building

The station has 2+1 Spanish gauge and 2+2 International gauge tracks

Spanish gauge tracks have two platforms plus one more ending in Calatayud and looking to Zaragoza only.

International gauge tracks have two ones with platforms and two more in the middle, separated from platforms so trains can run 300 km/h without danger to passengers in the platform.


----------



## JumpUp

Hello,

is there any new information about the upcoming France-Spain TGV and AVE? Is April still the day for direct Paris-Barcelona TGV? Is the TGV already on test runs in Spain and the old AVE on tests in France?

Any new information about possible connections? Or is it still only 1 TGV Geveve-Barcelona and three from Paris to Barcelona?

Do the TGV have ETCS to run through to Madrid, or is Barcelona the scheduled termination of TGV?


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> Hello,


 



> is there any new information about the upcoming France-Spain TGV and AVE?


Not yet.



> Is April still the day for direct Paris-Barcelona TGV?


This is the info we have, but it´s the only info we have.



> Is the TGV already on test runs in Spain and the old AVE on tests in France?


The Spanish AVE is already in tests in France, in Burgundy and in Valenciennes in Northern France. If you travel there, perhaps you´ll spot it.
By the way, the test schedule has already been changed. The AVE wasn´t supposed to reach Valenciennes during the tests in the beginning. 

No French TGV has entered Spain further than Figueres-Vilafant station, although I seem to remember that months ago one TGV did some kind of test between Figueres-Vilafant and Girona, before the HSL between Figueres and Girona opened. But I´m not sure wether that was a homologation test for the TGV, or a test of the new HSL. 



> Any new information about possible connections? Or is it still only 1 TGV Geveve-Barcelona and three from Paris to Barcelona?


That´s what we know for now.

As I said on another post, in the future there will be more TGVs to Lyon, Lille and Bordeaux. Strasbourg, Nice and Brussels are reachable too.
Maybe later London too (at least Eurostar said something about that on their web).



> TGV have ETCS to run through to Madrid, or is Barcelona the scheduled termination of TGV?


I suspect that to start with, the TGVs will only reach Barcelona, while the AVEs will reach Madrid from Marseilles and Toulouse.

BUT... that´s all we know. Anything could change.


----------



## 437.001

Cab ride on an AVE between Barcelona Sants and Figueres Vilafant.
Calling at Girona. At the arrival at Figueres Vilafant we can see a TGV Duplex, waiting to depart for Paris.


----------



## 437.001

Today a French TGV could start its tests between 11am and 6pm between Figueres and Barcelona.

Info yet to be confirmed 100%.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> Cab ride on an AVE between Barcelona Sants and Figueres Vilafant.
> Calling at Girona. At the arrival at Figueres Vilafant we can see a TGV Duplex, waiting to depart for Paris.


I changed trains there in september. I didn't notice the platforms were that long. How long are they?


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> I changed trains there in september. I didn't notice the platforms were that long. How long are they?


Dunno, like 600m?
They´re supposed to host at least two AVE/TGV (8-car).


----------



## AlexNL

An 8 car TGV is 200 meters long. 8 car AVE trains should be about the same.


----------



## timo9

makita09 said:


> *No. it. is. not.*
> 
> Science produces testable and falsifiable hypotheses. Economics does not. It is a more akin to philosophy.
> 
> There is not one single formula in all of Economics that does not rely on underived assumptions.
> 
> The economy doesn't actually exist, so science cannot EVER describe it.


:nuts: :nuts: :nuts: :nuts: God leave me from this earth


----------



## timo9

Ribarca said:


> I agree with you to a large extent.
> 
> Wasn't it perhaps a political decision with Felipe Gonzalez from Andalucia at the helm?
> 
> Andalucia is very populated as you say but it's very large ands nowhere near the density of Catalonia. Connecting to Barcelona alone allows millions of people access to the network.
> 
> This is my main gripe since in terms of exports, the harbors and industrial output of the Mediterranean basin this line has so much potential. In any other country this would have been one of the first lines to be built is my opinion.
> 
> This is what Germa Bel (that pseudo scientist reasons is the root of the radial thinking (and not economic thinking) in Spain. For being a pseudo scientist it's remarkable that he gets published in some of the most important economic Journals in the word.


I don't understand why Barcelona is STILL not yet connected with Valencia via HSR!!


----------



## OriK

timo9 said:


> I don't understand why Barcelona is STILL not yet connected with Valencia via HSR!!


Indeed it's connected: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromed_(train) it's an upgraded line so it's not 300+Km/h and it uses Iberian gauge but it's considered High Speed.


----------



## alserrod

It is not absolutely connected as far as there is a stretch with high speed limits.

Service Barcelona-Valencia is good... but not fast. Anyway, an importan numer of people think in train for Barcelona - Valencia despite it is not high speed train.

I think it is the classical line with no HSL works and more traffic.
The second one will be Pedrola-Castejon de Ebro where several trains from Barcelona and Madrid to different destinations joins there.


----------



## timo9

OriK said:


> Indeed it's connected: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromed_(train) it's an upgraded line so it's not 300+Km/h and it uses Iberian gauge but it's considered High Speed.





alserrod said:


> It is not absolutely connected as far as there is a stretch with high speed limits.
> 
> Service Barcelona-Valencia is good... but not fast. Anyway, an importan numer of people think in train for Barcelona - Valencia despite it is not high speed train.
> 
> I think it is the classical line with no HSL works and more traffic.
> The second one will be Pedrola-Castejon de Ebro where several trains from Barcelona and Madrid to different destinations joins there.


What is exactly the speed limit?


----------



## alserrod

I think 80 km/h near Salou but not sure.


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> I think 80 km/h near Salou but not sure.


160 between Tarragona and Vandellos. 220 between Vandellos and Castellon.
160 between Castellon and Valencia.


----------



## alserrod

and crossing Cambrils and Miami Pl????????


----------



## timo9

Thanks for the explications!


----------



## gincan

K_ said:


> I changed trains there in september. I didn't notice the platforms were that long. How long are they?


The one on the left in the video is 662 meters long (100 meters covered) and 10 meters wide according to ADIF. The other one is 660 meters long.

http://www.adif.es/gl_ES/comunicacion_y_prensa/fichas_de_actualidad/ficha_actualidad_00050.shtml

It is enough to fit one double composition and one single of any UIC standard model, you can see in the video that the switches are placed so that one single composition (200 meters) can occupie the southern part of the platform while another train (up to 400 meters long) can access the same platform from both directions. This is so that Madrid/Barcelona-Figueras trains can turn around without occuping the entire platform when future foreign through trains call at Figueras.


----------



## alserrod

As far as I know, I think that real line is Madrid-Bilbao.

However, Gijon and Irun are branches.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> The gains in travel time and the expected increase in passengers are bigger in the Galicia HSL than in any other HSL to Northern Spain.


I checked that the current travel time with a train from Madrid to A Coruna is 6 h 14 min and only ca 30 min better with a car. Do they promise under 3 h? The distance with a train is about 640 km so technically should be no big deal.


----------



## alserrod

I think they promised all province capitals (such as La Coruña) to have a 4-4,5 hours journey to Madrid

And La Coruña is one of the located far away from Madrid

But there is less than 2h30m to Seville and, by road is about 550km...
Distance to La Coruña is just 70 km more (by road!!) so it could be possible 3h-3h15m...


----------



## Sunfuns

Madrid-Seville is 471 km by HSR, best time 2 h 20 min giving the average of 204 km/h
Madrid-Barcelona is 621 km, best time 2 h 30 min and the average of 248 km/h

http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestru...velocidad/madrid_sevilla/madrid_sevilla.shtml

If the line to A Coruna is as fast as the one to Seville the travel time will be 3 h 10 min, if as fast as to Barcelona then 2 h 35 min. It's a newer line than the one to Andalusia (350 km/h design limit for large stretches), but there will be several stops before A Coruna so 3 h sharp would be a good guess. 

By the way wasn't the initial promise < 4 h to all provincial capitals from Madrid, less than 3 h for most of them?


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> Madrid-Seville is 471 km by HSR, best time 2 h 20 min giving the average of 204 km/h
> Madrid-Barcelona is 621 km, best time 2 h 30 min and the average of 248 km/h
> 
> http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestru...velocidad/madrid_sevilla/madrid_sevilla.shtml
> 
> If the line to A Coruna is as fast as the one to Seville the travel time will be 3 h 10 min, if as fast as to Barcelona then 2 h 35 min. It's a newer line than the one to Andalusia (350 km/h design limit for large stretches), but there will be several stops before A Coruna so 3 h sharp would be a good guess.



A long history.... Madrid-Seville was projected with a HSL and Spanish gauge Brazatortas (near Puertollano) - Cordoba and double line Madrid-Manzanares-Puertollano and Cordoba-Seville.

Later they changed the project and they made full HSL Madrid-Seville and with International gauge.
That's why it has more speed limits than other lines (and it was the first to be built).






> By the way wasn't the initial promise < 4 h to all provincial capitals from Madrid, less than 3 h for most of them?


They can be trains running over HSL and changing to classic lines. These trains have a speed limit of 200-250 (those ones who are able to change gauges)


----------



## Sunfuns

alserrod said:


> They can be trains running over HSL and changing to classic lines. These trains have a speed limit of 200-250 (those ones who are able to change gauges)


Didn't know that. From that follows that HS trains to Zamora to be introduced within 1-2 years won't fully use the capabilities of the line until the whole length to Galicia is opened in a more distant future. 

I was thinking more generally about the opening of new HSR lines or major tunnels. It looks like in 2013-2015 there won't be any "events" in Europe outside Spain. Nothing in France until 2016 at the earliest, Gotthard tunnel also 2016, Germany no way that fast, English haven't even started yet, Austrian tunnels are just started, Stockholm city tunnel 2017... Some of the missing stretches between Milan and Venice perhaps? Haven't heard about that project recently.


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> Didn't know that. From that follows that HS trains to Zamora to be introduced within 1-2 years won't fully use the capabilities of the line until the whole length to Galicia is opened in a more distant future.



In that case, a Madrid-Zamora (only that journey point to point) could run 300 (or maybe more) km/h but a Madrid-La Coruña only 250 km/h until Zamora and later, classic line with its limits.


----------



## Ribarca

alserrod said:


> I think they promised all province capitals (such as La Coruña) to have a 4-4,5 hours journey to Madrid


What is the economic reasoning behind that? It would have made much more sense to focus on local economic ties (e.g. with Portugal).


----------



## alserrod

there is another project to Portugal too


----------



## Suburbanist

Ribarca said:


> What is the economic reasoning behind that? It would have made much more sense to focus on local economic ties (e.g. with Portugal).


No way. In a country that has problems with some regions wanting to have their own way, it is important to foster links with the capital. Especially a capital like Madrid which is really in the center of the country (contrary to Paris, Berlin or London which are located on "corners" of their countries).


----------



## Fugit

When the speed will be 350km/h on Madrid-Barcelona?


----------



## Ribarca

Suburbanist said:


> No way. In a country that has problems with some regions wanting to have their own way, it is important to foster links with the capital. Especially a capital like Madrid which is really in the center of the country (contrary to Paris, Berlin or London which are located on "corners" of their countries).


So you basically confirm that the main reason is political according to you.


----------



## alserrod

Ribarca said:


> So you basically confirm that the main reason is political according to you.


Fifty-fifty

Most of long distance journeys are crossing Madrid. There could be some of them north-south or east-west (longest than 500km) wihtout crossing Madrid but not many.
There is a geographical explanation to that


But since the 19th century all road or railway networks have been radial, rather than linking several cities.


----------



## Slartibartfas

True, it is fifty-fifty. Infrastructure is also politics but politics by boosting economic ties, thats why it is as much about economy as well. Linking cities by HSR can be a huge benefit, especially for slightly more peripheral cities. Just take Marseilles, it benefited a lot by the LGV to Paris.


----------



## OriK

Fugit said:


> When the speed will be 350km/h on Madrid-Barcelona?


It's ready but economically it doesn't make sense...now the max speed is 330Km/h...

Actually that line could support trains faster than 350Km/h...


----------



## JumpUp

are you sure about 330? I thougt that the trains only run with 310 as maximum speed


----------



## OriK

^^ you are right


----------



## mcarling

Sunfuns said:


> Is the single track line seem in several of those pictures then the conventional line to Granada?





437.001 said:


> Sorry, but I just don´t get what you mean in this sentence.


I think I see the meaning. If so, using slightly more latinate and less germanic style, it might be:
Is the single-track line visible in several of those photos the conventional line to Grenada?


----------



## 437.001

^^
Alright. Thanks, mcarling. The "seem" and the "then" made me get lost.:dunno:

Yes and no. That picture shows the current line that´s used.
Which is no other than the HSL, with Iberian gauge and single-track (but with room for a second track). 
The classic line in that sector was abandoned, but the platform still exists and could (will?) be re-used if need be.


----------



## AlexNL

Out of curiosity, has anyone here who happens to travel with AVE noticed an increase in the amount of passengers on their route, after Renfe lowered ticket prices?


----------



## 437.001

Harrys said:


> it's easier to reach Paris-Est coming from Strasbourg/Germany, than from the south of France ^^


No, it´s just as easy, though uncommon.



> but, maybe they took some maintenance lines to reach Paris-Est


Train maintenance at Pantin depot.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> No, it´s just as easy, though uncommon.


Actually no, it's not possible to get to Paris Est from the LGV Paris - Lyon. 

The RENFE class S100 sets are all spending some time in Belfort to have them adapted and certified for use in France. 

What I think is that this train was doing test runs on the LGV-Est. This line has ETCS as well as TVM, which allows thus to test both systems.


----------



## gincan

It is a bit silly that a train model that has been running for over 20 years on the French rail network now has to go through a homologation. Kind of ridiculous really.


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> It is a bit silly that a train model that has been running for over 20 years on the French rail network now has to go through a homologation. Kind of ridiculous really.


It´s not a train model that has been running on the French rail network.
It LOOKS like one and has many likenesses, but it isn´t in the end.
It´s an AVE, not a TGV.

And if it´s passing the tests in France now, it´s mainly because it hasn´t been able to pass them before.
The TGV Duplex has been entering Spain (and passing the tests) for a bit longer than the opposite was possible.


----------



## K_

gincan said:


> It is a bit silly that a train model that has been running for over 20 years on the French rail network now has to go through a homologation. Kind of ridiculous really.


Actually the Renfe class S100 hasn't run on the French network since very recently. It was never originally certified for France. It's a French build train, based on the TGV Atlantique, and it looks like one, but it is not a TGV Atlantique. 

And even if it had been running in France before it is really not ridiculous at all that a train where the control systems have been fundamentally modified needs to be homologated again. If you add ETCS or TVM to a train that didn't have it before it loses its current homologation. The modified S100 will need to be tested on the Spanish network as well before it will enter commercial service again.


----------



## Think

K_ said:


> The modified S100 will need to be tested on the Spanish network as well before it will enter commercial service again.


I'm not sure. Nowadays a homologation in Spain is valid in France and vice versa. What they are testing now are only the new systems (those trainsets have been refurbished to this service), like the 1,5 kV and KVB systems wich cannot be tested in Spain. But once they're accepted in France they become automatically accepted in Spain.

The Dasye in Spain should be testing the different height of the power wire and things like that, but it doesn't need a complete homologation.

A usual homologation test requires 50.000 km and it is clear that these trainsets aren't doing that distances.


----------



## K_

Think said:


> I'm not sure. Nowadays a homologation in Spain is valid in France and vice versa.


Really? That would be a first. I don't know of any other pair of countries where this is the case. 
To give another example: NMBS is installing a new safety system in its trains (TBL+) and in the case of trainsets that can run in the Netherlands, France or Germany they have to be recertified because of this.


----------



## AlexNL

Spain is in a unique position: they're building a brand new system, based upon European systems (such as LZB and ERTMS). Because the entire system is relatively new it doesn't carry the legacy that requires recertification for each country (such as testing for possible interference).


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> The modified S100 will need to be tested on the Spanish network as well before it will enter commercial service again.


Right you are. kay:

The AVE 100 are passing its Spanish tests on the Madrid-Valencia/Albacete and Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres HSLs as well, although this has been less noticed, but if one researches the Spanish forum a bit, they´ll realise about a few posts about this homologation.

It´s a bit the same case as for the Alvia 730: they are fundamentally modified Alvia 130 trains, but now they need to pass homologation tests, since they are now dual diesel-electric, so they´re different trains than before.



Think said:


> I'm not sure. Nowadays a homologation in Spain is valid in France and vice versa. What they are testing now are only the new systems (those trainsets have been refurbished to this service), like the 1,5 kV and KVB systems wich cannot be tested in Spain. But once they're accepted in France they become automatically accepted in Spain.


It depends! In Spain the signalling is different, and in Spain there is no 1,5kV electrification anymore.


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> It´s not a train model that has been running on the French rail network.
> It LOOKS like one and has many likenesses, but it isn´t in the end.
> It´s an AVE, not a TGV.


Without going into technicalities the Renfe S100 and the SNCF S24000 are virtually the same train, they are built in the same factory by the same factory workers and with the same materials, etc. So homologation beyond implementing TVM-430 is just charades.

my 2 cents


----------



## Think

437.001 said:


> Right you are. kay:
> 
> The AVE 100 are passing its Spanish tests on the Madrid-Valencia/Albacete and Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres HSLs as well, although this has been less noticed


But what I think is that the aren't doing a double certification for the same systems both in Spain and France. Some system are being tested in France, some in Spain.

Not a long time ago you had to double the certification of all the system. Today if France would had 25 kV and ECTS in all the lines that are going to be used, no homologation would had been needed. This is a result of the progresive implementation of the interoperation european rules.

That is why the compulsory use of the ASFA in the spanish high speed lines is a complete error. Is not an expensive system but any train going to Spain should have been certified for ASFA, while if ASFA is not needed any high speed train of Europe could reach Spain without any extra test.

In any case this is what I think... I've never been completly sure because the interoperation rules are complicated and their use is being progresive. But I'm almost sure.


----------



## Think

gincan said:


> Without going into technicalities the Renfe S100 and the SNCF S24000 are virtually the same train, they are built in the same factory by the same factory workers and with the same materials, etc. So homologation beyond implementing TVM-430 is just charades.
> 
> my 2 cents


1'5 kV equipements of the S24000 and S100 have more than twenty years between them.


----------



## JumpUp

Hello,

I am searching for a really good map or even at Atlas of the Spanish Rail network. It should be with many details and the HSR should be included too.

I searched amazon and ebay but nothing was to be found (

Thank you very much


----------



## solchante

JumpUp said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am searching for a really *good map or even at Atlas of the Spanish Rail network.* It should be with many details and the HSR should be included too.
> 
> I searched amazon and ebay but nothing was to be found (
> 
> Thank you very much



hi, look here :

http://rfe.geotren.es/

and here

http://www.geotren.es/blog/mapa-de-servicios-de-alta-velocidad-ferroviaria-en-espana-diciembre-2012/

hope you like it


----------



## alserrod

I think that the first link has a very accurate map!


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

Love the map! Question, how long does it take, on average, to re-gauge a kilometer of rail and what does it cost aprox.?


----------



## alserrod

I remember that a 21 stretch was totally refurbished and electrified in just three months and working only while nights...

so it the tracks are ready you can have it in a very short period.


----------



## OriK

If the sleepers are double gauge (most of them), it's a relatively easy and cheap task...

We could bet which will be the first completely migrated region... it could be Galicia if it weren't for the portuguese connection...

Althought I think that sooner than later, the network will cross a point that will precipitate a fast and massive change of gauge...

The most complicated part will be changing the cercanías networks... closing those complicated lines for at least one complete summer might be a complete and absolute chaos.... and it also implies changing longer lines as they share the rails with other medium and long distance trains...


----------



## Suburbanist

What Cercanías system is busier (passengers/day)? Barcelona, Valencia or Madrid?


----------



## alserrod

I'd hazard to say that Madrid

Valencia has some lines with few services
Barcelona has half lines because the other ones are FGC (and in Valencia are FGV some lines)

And the line with more passengers is in Madrid (C5)


----------



## Coccodrillo

alserrod said:


> the projected tunnel is finished (the "hole"). But it is expected to have a refurbished in the northern side cos project until the shore will be quite expensive and few time saving. This is, the most important and difficult classic track stretch is saved by the tunnel. Later, running over the classic line you can reach Oviedo and Gijón. Let's remember that distance is not very much and it will call at Oviedo before arriving to Gijon.


Sorry, I can't understand you. Are you referring to the Pajares base tunnel or to the city tunnel in León? Apparently the first one. If you prefer, you can write in Spanish, and I will translate.

Desculpame, pero no te entiendo. Estás hablando del túnel de Pajares o de el de León? A mi me parece del primero. Si prefieras, tu puedes escribir en español y yo voy a traducir.


----------



## alserrod

Sorry, I was talking about Pajares tunnel.

I have no news about tunnel in Leon city


----------



## Think

I don't know exactly the current situation of the León project but the news that we have is that it is frozen.

To start the construction works, it was needed to cut the rail traffic and build the temporary station. The temporary station was opened and the traffic throught the city was cut, but we don't have any new that works started.


----------



## Viva_Bulgaria

I came across this image of the new Renfe workshop in Valladolid. Does anyone know what exactly it is about - maintenance, production? 









Photo by Ricardo Melgar


----------



## 437.001

Maintenance mostly, but given the case, construction too.
It´s not yet in use, it´s supposed to replace the current workshop at Valladolid-Campo Grande station.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

*Nudo de Mollet – Mixed use high-speed line Barcelona – France*

Yesterday I grabbed my car to take some pictures of the Nudo de Mollet, which is the name of the place where the UIC freight line around Barcelona meets up with the High-speed passenger line coming from Barcelona Sants. As you can see in the pics, the day was nice and glorious

To give you an idea of where I took the pictures from, below a little arrow on a very good railmap of Spain (courtesy of geotren.es). Hope you enjoy the pictures:


----------



## Sunfuns

I've just read that AVE service between Madrid and Alicante will start June 24th. Is that accurate? 

http://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/...ing-for-tourism-from-ave-high-speed-promotion


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I've just read that AVE service between Madrid and Alicante will start June 24th. Is that accurate?
> 
> http://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/...ing-for-tourism-from-ave-high-speed-promotion


Yes, give it or take a day or two.

The HSL will open without Villena station, which isn´t finished yet, so trains will run non-stop from Albacete to Alicante.

We still don´t know the timetables, but we guess that all the Alvia services Madrid-Alicante, as well as all the AVE Madrid-Albacete will become AVE Madrid-Allicante.

As for the Alvia Alicante-Santander, Alicante-Gijon and Alicante-Corunna/Vigo, we don´t know yet. They may carry on as Alvia, but we still don´t know.


----------



## Sunfuns

Some recent news I've found about building works for Galicia line:

http://www.rail.co/2013/04/18/viaduct-build-complete-on-madrid-galicia-high-speed-line/

Acording to the article a sizable length viaduct has just been finished in Zamora-Ourense section. 

Also the section of this website describing high speed railway bridges might be of interest to some of you. Lots of high quality pictures of building process.

http://www.eipsa.net/en/proyectos.asp?id_tipo=1

By the way Spanish railway/highway construction news are considerably easier to find than the same for other major countries. Well done!


----------



## alserrod

Thx


Should you enter in the Spanish subforum, all threads related to HSL are with the label "LAV" in advance of the name, so you will find information quite soon.


----------



## Sunfuns

alserrod said:


> Should you enter in the Spanish subforum, all threads related to HSL are with the label "LAV" in advance of the name, so you will find information quite soon.


I know, I do check forums in other languages as well if I'm really interested and have a bit of extra time. At least in ones google translator doesn't turn into pure gibberish :lol:


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## 437.001

I said this...



437.001 said:


> The HSL will open without Villena station, which isn´t finished yet, so trains will run non-stop from Albacete to Alicante.


But after the last update on the Spanish forum about that station, I´m not so sure, though I still think they won´t be in time.
But man, they ARE fast.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> I said this...
> 
> 
> 
> But after the last update on the Spanish forum about that station, I´m not so sure, though I still think they won´t be in time.
> But man, they ARE fast.



I looked up the pictures posted in the Spanish section and the place seems to be located in the open fields. Is this station really going to be particularly useful? I've heard that some of these "beetroot" stations in Spain (in France too) are used by just handful of people a day and were built only because of lobbying by the nearby municipality. I don't know the local population dynamics so I can't be completely sure, but on the surface this looks like another of those...


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> Some recent news I've found about building works for Galicia line:


What about the tunnels? How is their progress? They account for 70 km or more and are thus the most costly part of the line.


----------



## Sunfuns

Coccodrillo said:


> What about the tunnels? How is their progress? They account for 70 km or more and are thus the most costly part of the line.


There wasn't any information about that so I don't really know. Perhaps our Spanish posters know something more? The semi-official finishing deadlines I have heard are end of next year until Zamora and 2018 for the whole line so I assume there is still a lot to do... 

There was also a link few months ago in this thread or maybe the regular Spain/railways thread about this particular line being favoured with funding this year (about 900 million euros). I think there is a good chance of it being finished +/- 1-2 years from the dates mentioned above.


----------



## foxmulder

Viva_Bulgaria said:


> I came across this image of the new Renfe workshop in Valladolid. Does anyone know what exactly it is about - maintenance, production?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo by Ricardo Melgar


I love massive buildings like this for train maintenance. thanks for sharing..


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I looked up the pictures posted in the Spanish section and the place seems to be located in the open fields.


It´s located 3km outside Villena. 



> Is this station really going to be particularly useful? I've heard that some of these "beetroot" stations in Spain (in France too) are used by just handful of people a day and were built only because of lobbying by the nearby municipality. I don't know the local population dynamics so I can't be completely sure, but on the surface this looks like another of those...


I´m not so sure in this case.

Anyway, it depends on the timetables Renfe will concoct.
Besides, this station at Villena will serve not just the HSL for Albacete, Cuenca, Madrid and beyond, but also the HSL (under advanced construction) for Xativa, Valencia and further north allong the classic line to Barcelona.

The area is reasonably populated (Villena, Yecla, Almansa, Alcoy, Elda, Petrer...).
It will depend mainly on the road connections (the Valencia regional government has financial problems, and it´s their bidding to build them).

We´ll see. This shouldn´t be a "Requena-Utiel case", but it´s up to Renfe to develop an attractive timetable offer to attract passengers. 



Coccodrillo said:


> What about the tunnels?


I´ve found this on the Madrid-Galicia HSL thread of the Spanish fórum. Click on the pic to enlarge:



geotecnico said:


> Un bonito recuerdo de este fin de semana.
> 
> Boca Oeste de los nuevos Túneles de O Corno


They are working really hard and fast on this HSL.
It´ll be really expensive, but it will completely change the railway in northwestern Spain, travel times will become really decent.


----------



## K_

Any news on Barcelona - France TGVs? Last we heard they should start running this week...


----------



## Think

K_ said:


> Any news on Barcelona - France TGVs? Last we heard they should start running this week...


There are a lot of rumors but nothing clear.

It is supposed that french trains are having problems in Spain and spanish trains are having problems in France. Nothing special but it would require some weeks/months. Some of the rumors are a little embarassing for the engineers, like they'd found than spanish and french ERTMS aren't compatible.

Also in the last days a lot of people is talking about a big problem with the electricity supply. There is a 400 kV main link that had to be built to supply power to northen Catalonia, but it hasn't been built due to environmental opposition. It is not a problem of railways but a problem of general power suply to Catalonia. The issue here is that the power substations of the line aren't connected to the power network, and they won't be for a while.

It is supposed that in this conditions only one train can use the line at the same time. Two trains have risk of cause a blackout. This would be a big limitation, but in this case TGVs could replace some current AVE paths.


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> Any news on Barcelona - France TGVs? Last we heard they should start running this week...


We just know that today the TGV should come to Barcelona in tests again.


----------



## 437.001

At the very least till August the 25th... 



> *Technical issues delay Paris – Barcelona TGVs*
> 
> FRENCH National Railways (SNCF) and Renfe have postponed the launch of direct TGV services between Paris due to delays in completing certification of TGV Dasye sets for operation on the Figueres – Barcelona high-speed line.
> 
> The twice-daily Paris – Figueres TGVs were initially due to be extended to Barcelona at the end of this month, with Renfe launching a new Barcelona – Toulouse service at the same time.
> 
> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...al+problems+delay+Paris++Barcelona+TGV+launch


----------



## Adpg

Zaragoza city, AVE Madrid-Barcelona


----------



## JumpUp

Hey!

Today I used the TGV/AVE Paris-Barcelona, will report about the journey later!

A quick question: Both the TGV between Perpignan-Figueras and the AVE between Figueras-Barcelona were pretty slow. As what I saw, we never were faster than 200 kmh.

Is my feeling correct? What is the maximum speed currently between Barcelona and Perpignan? When will it be raised to 300?

Thanks!


----------



## AlexNL

The LGV Perpignan - Figueras was built to allow speeds up to 300 km/h, the track between Figueras and Barcelona should allow speeds up to 350 km/h (source: Wikipedia).

According to these posts, there are some power issues in the province of Girona that are currently hampering high speed services on the line. I'm not sure if this also applies to Perpignan - Figueras, perhaps there were other issues preventing the train from reaching 300 km/h.

Did your train arrive in Figueras on time?


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> Hey!
> 
> Today I used the TGV/AVE Paris-Barcelona, will report about the journey later!


We´re waiting for it! kay:



> A quick question: Both the TGV between Perpignan-Figueras and the AVE between Figueras-Barcelona were pretty slow. As what I saw, we never were faster than 200 kmh.
> 
> Is my feeling correct?


Yes. So it was on Saturday April the 27th when I did Tarragona-Perpignan and vv.



> What is the maximum speed currently between Barcelona and Perpignan?


Around 200km/h.



> When will it be raised to 300?
> 
> Thanks!


Answer below.



AlexNL said:


> The LGV Perpignan - Figueras was built to allow speeds up to 300 km/h,


Correct.



> the track between Figueras and Barcelona should allow speeds up to 350 km/h (source: Wikipedia).


That will not be possible on all of the line.
The sector between Barcelona and at least Montmeló has narrow bends which don´t allow for 350, nor even 300.

Same goes for the entrance to Girona coming from Barcelona, there´s a rather narrow bend right before entering the Girona tunnel.

The sector between Girona and Figueras will be allowed for 300 though.



> According to these posts, there are some power issues in the province of Girona that are currently hampering high speed services on the line.


Yes. There´s a general lack of power in the Girona province.
This has led to the construction of a very high tension electric line (known in Spain as MAT -Muy Alta Tensión- and in France as THT -Très Haute Tension-), between Baixas (France) and Bescanó (Spain).
That´s supposed to also feed the HSL, as two power stations (Riudarenes and Santa Llogaia d´Alguema) will be able to feed the line. Right now they remain disconnected.

This makes that the number of paths is limited for now, since there´s not enough power to keep many trains running at once yet.

They´ve actually made up a temporary connection to a power station at Sant Celoni, and they´ve made an agreement with TP-Ferro (owner of the international section of the HSL) to borrow them the power station at Le Soler in France to pump some power to Spain for the HSL.

When the Very High Tension electric line is finished, those two power stations will finally be connected, and the paths and maximum speeds will be reviewed, but between Barcelona and Girona I seriously doubt the 300 will be reached. If any, maybe between Riells and the Girona airport.



> I'm not sure if this also applies to Perpignan - Figueras, perhaps there were other issues preventing the train from reaching 300 km/h.


Mmm... no. But it´s limited to 200 as a measure of security, since the TGV trains now running there (TGV Dasye) aren´t the final model that will run on the line (these will be the TGV 2N2 3UH).

Although if the TGV is not on time the TGV driver might accelerate a little more than allowed. 



> Did your train arrive in Figueras on time?


If it came from Spain it surely did, if it came from France it maybe did, but that´s less likely.


----------



## JumpUp

Today I will be going on a return trip Barcelona-Sevilla non-stop with a 2 hours break in Sevilla!

Does anybody of you have an idea where to get a good and not expensive lunch around Sevilla central station? Thanks!

Btw. If somebody wants to join me today for a drink in Sevilla at 14.30 or in the evening in Barcelona, just tell me! I send you my mobile number then 

I am really excited about todays high speed travel to Sevilla!


----------



## Coccodrillo

The Perpignan-Figueras section is only 44 km long, and with two stops not much distant one another (maybe 50 km? the distance between Perpignan and Figuras includes a section of non-TP Ferro line), so 300 km/h would be hardly achievable. I suppose when there will be HS trains not stopping in Figueras and Girona speed will increase also on the TP Ferro line.


----------



## Think

JumpUp said:


> Is my feeling correct? What is the maximum speed currently between Barcelona and Perpignan? When will it be raised to 300?


The TGV Perpignan-Figueres is supposed to be already allowed to 300 km/h.

The speed sheet for Figueras-Barcelona is this (by jotaerre):










As we could see:

- The speed limit for the line isn't 300 km/h in any condition, except maybe the branch Girona-Figueres wich wasn't in service when this document was printed.

- The line signaling system is BSL (Side Signaling System), a backup system used when the ERTMS doesn't work, wich is limited to 200 km/h.

There isn't a clear date of when the ERTMS will be completly on service. In other cases, it was in and out service sometimes before it was definitly put into service.



437.001 said:


> Although if the TGV is not on time the TGV driver might accelerate a little more than allowed.


If I were the chief of the driver, trust me that he shouldn't.

That's not a minor issue, imagine that there is any incident for a cause not related to the driver but they found that he was going at overspeed... he becomes seriusly charged. Also the speed limitations are very squeezed in rail, f.e., if the derailment safety speed of a curve is 54 km/h it might get limited to 50 km/h, and you never know what is the real margin of the next curve. In the case of a limited signaling system like this, being overspeedly may cause you to overpass a signal due to breaking distance. So overspeed is never a good idea.


----------



## Sunfuns

Basically the line is finished to the extent that trains can run on it, but not yet to 100% of design specifications. I wonder if timetables will be reorganised as well once the trains are able to use the full line speed or it will just be used as a safety margin.


----------



## Think

According to what happened in precedent lines timetibles will be reorganised, but don't expect big changes, they'll be just some minutes.


----------



## 437.001

Update on the new HSL Albacete-Alicante (phase 2 of the Madrid-Alicante HSL).
This new extension is said to enter service by June the 23th or 24th.

Pictures of Alicante station:



437.001 said:


> Fotos del forero *alc* en www.tranvia.org, de las obras de la estación de Alicante:
> 
> 
> alc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hola a todos. Hoy he podido acceder con "tranquilidad y legalidad" dentro del recinto de las obras y hacer unas fotos desde una posición elevada y que no es accesible ni lo será, por la proximidad de los hilos de la catenaria, especialmente en lo alto del muro de contención que delimita la nueva playa de vías y os muestro unas fotos del estado actual a poco más de mes y medio para la llega del AVE a la nueva terminal de Alicante.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acceso de las 4 vías de ancho 1435 y las 2+1 de ancho 1668. Las de ancho 1668 se acaban justo despues de ese escape y no hay nada montado hasta las toperas. Las de ancho 1435 estan montadas y niveladas hasta las toperas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detalle del acceso de las vias ancho 1435
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detalle del espacio a ocupar por las vias ancho 1668
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Detalle de andenes y vía 1, adaptada al espacio existente.
> 
> Un saludo
Click to expand...

Pictures of trains during tests. 
It seems that the AVE S-100 will assure most of these trains.

At Albacete station:



jotaerre said:


> Pues sí, ha habido suerte. En Albacete, hoy a las 15:26
> 
> 
> 
> Más fotos en Tranviaportal


On tests between La Encina (Alicante province) and Almansa (Albacete province):



bencenico71 said:


> *¡¡S100 cazado!!, a las 09:40 de esta mañana, en dirección Madrid por la LAV Madrid Alicante, más o menos en el Km 405, justo después de pasar el viaducto sobre la A-35. Menos mal que mi novia ha estado rápida y lo ha podido pillar.*


----------



## Sunfuns

Thanks for the update! The Alicante station, however, doesn't look completely polished with just a bit over a month left till the opening date. Is it supposed to be 100% finished beforehand or just enough to accept trains with some minor works continuing a bit longer? Or maybe it's just my impression  

By the way it is my understanding that the full extension of this line to Almeria is pretty much canceled, but how about continuing to Murcia? Is that at least likely to happen? How about the branch to Valencia? Haven't read anything about that recently either.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Thanks for the update!


kay:



> The Alicante station, however, doesn't look completely polished with just a bit over a month left till the opening date. Is it supposed to be 100% finished beforehand or just enough to accept trains with some minor works continuing a bit longer? Or maybe it's just my impression


Well, actually this is the Alicante current station a bit upgraded.
The original project for Alicante station (which included a completely new underground Adif station, as well as an underground Tram station) has been postponed with no target date. I wouldn´t say it´s been cancelled, but obviously the money for it won´t be there in years.

As for the way it looks, you´re right, I´m not sure it will be in time for the opening either, but the orders from "above" are "it must open in June, whatever happens".

Everybody knows, though, that Adif can be VERY fast if need be.
So I wouldn´t rule out that Alicante station upgrade is finished by the end of June.
After all, the upgrade is quite simple, and all the services will stay were they are, except maybe the taxi stop and the luggage scanners.

This has an explanation: Alicante is Madrid´s main beach. It is expected to work both ways too, since tourists arriving to Alicante from other countries will have Madrid and its museums and historical sites much more at hand, and also the medieval city of Cuenca (classed World Heritage Site by the UNESCO).

It´s not unlikely that the Alicante HSL will be busier than the Valencia HSL, despite Alicante city being much smaller than Valencia city. Anyway, the Alicante province is the 4th most populated in Spain, just after the Valencia province, and it´s more populated than Seville or Malaga provinces. 

The Villena station may not be in time, though, and in that case the HSL would open without Villena station till it were finished. Construction works at Villena are quite advanced too, but the main problem there is the road access to the station, which should be built by the Valencian regional government, that has been bailed out by Madrid, so they don´t have the money now. :sly:

The good news about austerity is that they won´t be building massive stations anymore, except for the future Sagrera station at Barcelona, and for the HSL station at Vigo (Galicia, NW Spain, and PM Mariano Rajoy´s home region :sleepy::no.



> By the way it is my understanding that the full extension of this line to Almeria is pretty much canceled, but how about continuing to Murcia? Is that at least likely to happen?


The extension from Murcia to Almeria hasn´t been cancelled, just postponed.

The extension from Alicante to Murcia is currently in works.

It is essential to get to Almeria, since that would cut travel times between Eastern Spain (and Madrid) and Andalusia. Now it takes 12 hours from Barcelona to Almeria, which should be cut to less than 6 hours, not to talk about freight. Madrid-Almeria is more than 6 hours now, that would be cut to 3h45min or so. 

For now, works are more or less advanced between Murcia and Lorca. The problem is the Lorca-Almeria section, in which although works have started, they aren´t much advanced. 

The main problem between Alicante and Almeria are the Murcia and the Lorca stations. They should have been underground, but now there´s no money for that. So now they don´t know very much what to do. There´s talk about third rail, or maybe a provisory station at Murcia, but things are unclear. Wait and see. :dunno:



> How about the branch to Valencia? Haven't read anything about that recently either.


Apart from the Albacete-La Encina-Villena-Monforte del Cid-Alicante stretch, the Valencia-Xativa-La Encina branch is the most advanced of all the HSLs under construction.
Rails are in place between Valencia and Xativa, and the reconstruction and upgrade of the old classic line between L´Alcudia de Crespins and La Encina is rather advanced too (that will alllow to change the gauge on the HSL between Xativa and La Encina, which has been in use for many years but in Iberian gauge).
But since it isn´t radial, it is more prone to suffer delays, which is the case.
Works there have halted again, since budget didn´t have any more money for the line this year. But the state it is in, it should be open by 2015 (or even 2014). That will cut travel time between Valencia and Alicante in half (2 hours to 1 hour).


----------



## 437.001

As I hinted something about Vigo station and the HSL to Galicia (North Western Spain), here are a few pics.

This are the works at Vigo-Urzaiz station.
This was the classic Vigo station till it was closed and demolished a few years ago to make room for the HSL, and it´s been replaced by Vigo-Guixar station (which is the historical freight terminal).

Right now, Vigo-Urzaiz is a big hole:



zoltan said:


> Obras estación de Vigo-Urzáiz
> 
> Fotos desde un punto de vista inédito.
> 
> Son las 8:15, empiezan a arrancar el turno, salen las primeras bañeras cargadas.
> 
> Al fondo, pozo utilizado para la extracción de las tuneladoras.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ya llevan cientos de miles de metros cuadrados de tierra excavados y aún falta por excavar hasta el túnel...
> 
> Es una obra gigantesca.




This is how Vigo-Urzaiz HSL station will look like, it seems. Not cheap. :sly:



zoltan said:


> No sé que van a hacer con la parte Este, desde la pasarela que se ve en la cuarta foto hasta la boca de túnel, ya que en esa zona no se edifica. Supongo que quedará en zona verde si se cumplen los renders.
> 
> 
> Se ve un poco en este render (antiguo, pues con el recorte de superficie comercial, habrá más verde). Por cierto, el triangulo sin verde, supuestamente es una zona al aire libre donde se verían las vías, que sería el único sitio en 20 kms.





And these are a few pictures of the works of the upgrade at Zamora station.
The Olmedo-Medina del Campo-Zamora will be one of the next sections of the Galicia HSL to be opened, by 2014 or 2015, they say:




jotaerre said:


> El twitter de @afzamorana nos ofrece esta foto de hoy mismo de la estación de Zamora





mandorallen said:


>





mandorallen said:


> Para poder usar los primeros andenes y suprimir el andén provisional queda muy poco.
> 
> Vista desde lado Orense:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vista desde lado Medina:


----------



## alserrod

About Alicante.... Zaragoza opened its station in 2003 without being finished. Four months later HSL arrived there but only departures lounge was opened (all services where there. The opposite side of the statio remained closed)l.

In 2007 the bus station (located in the same building) opened and in 2008 the arrivals lounge was opened.

More than five years without all finished...


----------



## Coccodrillo

What about the tram underground station at Alicante Termino? Will they build it only with the AVE underground station? Anyway, as it is now the tram system is quite useless (line 2 finished but never opened, single track on lines 1, 3 and 4, end of the line quite far from the railway station...). When will these faults be corrected?

As for Vigo: I suppose Google Maps is wrong, Guixar should be the freight terminal near the sea (with some passenger facilities added), and Urzaiz the station below shown as "Guixar" by Google. Am I right?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Another question: where will Madrid-Vigo train pass? I heard a short connecting line will be built south of Santiago, so that these trains will travel up to near Santiago, which is longer but quicker than the direct line. Is that true?

Also in the Spanish forum I read that the Galicia HSL twin tube tunnels will be built in two phases, first one tube and the upper section of the other tube, then the lower section of the second tube. Will the line be opened as single track? Do you know more about that?

(I know of the plans of a new Ourense-Vigo HSL, but I suppose it will not be built any time soon)


----------



## gincan

Coccodrillo said:


> Another question: *where will Madrid-Vigo train pass*? I heard a short connecting line will be built south of Santiago, so that these trains will travel up to near Santiago, which is longer but quicker than the direct line. Is that true?
> 
> Also in the Spanish forum I read that the Galicia HSL twin tube tunnels will be built in two phases, first one tube and the upper section of the other tube, then the lower section of the second tube. Will the line be opened as single track? Do you know more about that?
> 
> (I know of the plans of a new Ourense-Vigo HSL, but I suppose it will not be built any time soon)


32:50 into the video you can see the triangle track, or Santiago bypass.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Rails are in place between Valencia and Xativa, and the reconstruction and upgrade of the old classic line between L´Alcudia de Crespins and La Encina is rather advanced too (that will alllow to change the gauge on the HSL between Xativa and La Encina, which has been in use for many years but in Iberian gauge).


Really appreciate your detailed answers and cross posts from the Spanish section. kay:

I'm not sure I understand correctly the part cited above, though. Is it that the HS line between Xativa and La Encina is already in use but as part of the classical line in Iberian gauge and the old classical line is currently closed for upgrade and needs to be finished before Xativa-La Encina stretch can change gauge and be dedicated to high speed trains?


----------



## Sunfuns

Just came to my mind that finishing the missing stretch of Alicante-Valencia HSL would also allow an alternative path from Madrid to Valencia. Obviously a significantly longer one, but still well within HS territory. Maybe worth trying it at some point.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> What about the tram underground station at Alicante Termino? Will they build it only with the AVE underground station? Anyway, as it is now the tram system is quite useless (line 2 finished but never opened, single track on lines 1, 3 and 4, end of the line quite far from the railway station...). When will these faults be corrected?


The tram lines now finish at Luceros station, 400 m away from the Alicante Adif station. The tram line should have been extended till the Adif station to provide a much needed link for Benidorm and the Costa Blanca towns, but the Valencian regional government has no money for now. We don´t expect it to be extended to the Adif station in years.

On the good side, the AVE ticket will offer a free combi-ticket with the Alicante tram, but I´m still not sure wether that will be posible only for the people going to Benidorm or also to the other stations on the tram line.

As for L2 of the Alicante tram, the Valencian regional government has announced it will finally open it (they didn´t find any private company that suited _their_ conditions, in short).



> As for Vigo: I suppose Google Maps is wrong, Guixar should be the freight terminal near the sea (with some passenger facilities added), and Urzaiz the station below shown as "Guixar" by Google. Am I right?


You are right.



Coccodrillo said:


> Another question: where will Madrid-Vigo train pass? I heard a short connecting line will be built south of Santiago, so that these trains will travel up to near Santiago, which is longer but quicker than the direct line. Is that true?


That´s true only for the trains not calling at Santiago de Compostela.
But the link is already built, as you can see on the YouTube below. We call it the Conxo by-pass:



gincan said:


> 32:50 into the video you can see the triangle track, or Santiago bypass.


The last time I went there ^^ it wasn´t electrified yet, but it might be by now (or getting close to being finished).



> Also in the Spanish forum I read that the Galicia HSL twin tube tunnels will be built in two phases, first one tube and the upper section of the other tube, then the lower section of the second tube. Will the line be opened as single track? Do you know more about that?


Not yet. I´ll tell more as I´ll get more info, but the last news are on the line of what you say.



> (I know of the plans of a new Ourense-Vigo HSL, but I suppose it will not be built any time soon)


Correct. The Galicia HSL has been controversial and expensive enough to add now another new branch to it, especially when we´re not precisely floating in a sea of money... and when we have many other HSLs (and the people who will use them!) waiting for completion and delayed because of the austerity.



Sunfuns said:


> Really appreciate your detailed answers and cross posts from the Spanish section. kay:






> I'm not sure I understand correctly the part cited above, though. Is it that the HS line between Xativa and La Encina is already in use but as part of the classical line in Iberian gauge


Correct.



> and the old classical line is currently closed for upgrade [...]


Not exactly. Let´s see (I made it too simple at first because for those who don´t know the line very well it´s rather tricky, even for the Spanish forumers):

-the classic line between Xativa and L´Alcudia de Crespins hasn´t been closed since it will not be upgraded yet, and it will stay single-track.

-the classic line between L´Alcudia de Crespins and Vallada (including Montesa station) has been closed for upgrading and double-tracking.

-the classic line between Vallada and Moixent had been closed years ago with the opening of the HSL, and is now being reconstructed and double-tracked.
Moixent station is the terminus of the commuter Cercanías Renfe Valencia services.

-the classic track between Moixent and La Font de la Figuera had been closed years ago with the opening of the HSL, and is now being reconstructed and double-tracked. To do so they´ve had to make a new platform for the classic line through Moixent, which will avoid Moixent station (that will keep on being the commuter terminus, though, since commuter trains will use the not-through tracks of the station), including a new tunnel, since at Moixent station the through tracks (that were shared by both the HSL and the classic line) coincided, and they will become part of the HSL.

-the classic line between La Font de la Figuera and La Encina is NOT being reconstructed and won´t be, since there it will be the HSL the one to have a new platform, while the classic line will use the current tunnel of the HSL, as the final HSL project has a triangle a bit off La Encina station, and also because La Encina tunnel poses a bit of a geological problem.



> and the old classical line [...] needs to be finished before Xativa-La Encina stretch can change gauge and be dedicated to high speed trains?


Correct.



Sunfuns said:


> Just came to my mind that finishing the missing stretch of Alicante-Valencia HSL would also allow an alternative path from Madrid to Valencia. Obviously a significantly longer one, but still well within HS territory. Maybe worth trying it at some point.


Renfe have that in their mind. That is why they are building a triangle at La Encina.


----------



## 437.001

Today, at Monforte del Cid, very close to Alicante, the AVE 100.005 in tests (on the first pic, in hindsight, we can see the HSL viaduct that will lead the AVE trains from Alicante to Murcia. This part of the HSL to Murcia is already finished and electrified) :



jotaerre said:


> Hoy había un S-100 estacionado en el PAET de Monforte del Cid.
> 
> Ha salido a las 12:35, Hacia Madrid (según me han dicho)


----------



## 437.001

Pictures of the tests on the Albacete-Alicante HSL.

An S-730 near Almansa, bound for Albacete. 



bencenico71 said:


>


==============================================

An S-112 at Alicante station:



Manolo24 said:


>


==============================================

Near Villena.

An S-112:



RDaneel said:


>



An S-730:



RDaneel said:


>



And again an S-112:



RDaneel said:


>


----------



## skaP187

What´s up with the ´bad´ news which was so big in the ´informacion´ last week? Averige speed maximum 200 km/h between Alicante en Madrid? (2,5 while they originaly promesed 1,5 hour) 
Was this just a way of cheap scoring of the newspaper as they are testing and will this later be adjusted to an acceptable speed, or is that realy just it?
The traject is crazy by the way following Cuenca. Spain and politics realy make me sick. The rest is okay though!


----------



## 437.001

skaP187 said:


> What´s up with the ´bad´ news which was so big in the ´informacion´ last week? Averige speed maximum 200 km/h between Alicante en Madrid? (2,5 while they originaly promesed 1,5 hour)
> Was this just a way of cheap scoring of the newspaper as they are testing and will this later be adjusted to an acceptable speed, or is that realy just it?


That´s the testing, obviously. Large parts of it will be able for 300km/h.
The best travel time (non-stop Madrid to Alicante) will be 2h15min or even less.



> The traject is crazy by the way following Cuenca.


The travel time will be shorter tan the current one anyway, so don´t moan. 
Other regions will have no HSL, or they will but not next month.


----------



## arctic_carlos

We cannot afford to build a direct high speed line from Madrid to every corner of the country, so each line has a common strectch (in this line Madrid - Cuenca - Motilla del Palancar) and then there are different branches (Motilla del Palancar - Valencia - Castellón and Motilla del Palancar - Albacete - Alicante / Murcia). In addition, there is a connecting line (La Encina - Valencia), to allow services between Murcia, Alicante and Valencia (and Barcelona).

The present traject through Cuenca was chosen in order to give service to that city. It means a little detour between Alicante and Madrid, but nothing really serious. Until 2010, trains from Castellón and Valencia to Madrid used the classic line through Albacete, which was indeed a bigger detour than the one through Cuenca.


----------



## Think

skaP187 said:


> (2,5 while they originaly promesed 1,5 hour)


I think you need a map.

There are too many kilometers beetween Madrid and Alicante to do that in 1:30.



skaP187 said:


> The traject is crazy by the way following Cuenca.


I think... that you need a map too.

Make a line between Madrid and Alicante, and you'll see that it passes near Cuenca. The distance between Cuenca and the straight line is more o less (maybe less) than the distance from that straight line to Alcazar de San Juan.


----------



## 437.001

You are confused, Think. It is Valencia the one that´s closer to Cuenca. Madrid-Alicante via Cuenca is a detour. 
The thing that the moaners don´t get is that the HSL through Cuenca is already open, so there´s no way they´re going to change that now! 
And in the end, you connect Cuenca to Alicante, Madrid and Valencia, which, given the touristic potential Cuenca has, is not a bad idea at all.


----------



## Think

437.001 said:


> You are confused, Think. It is Valencia the one that´s closer to Cuenca. Madrid-Alicante via Cuenca is a detour.


A very relative detour. The other corridor is a detour as the elected corridor is.

Straight line and Cuenca (north) and Alcazar de San Juan (south):


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Alcazar de San Juan is 10 km further away of the direct line than Cuenca.


----------



## JoFMO

Cuenca looks like a detour because the whole line from Valencia to Madrid has three corners of 90 degrees: Montilla, Cuenca and Ocana. Togetehr they become a detour but aech of it on its own is well in line.


----------



## 437.001

Think said:


> A very relative detour. The other corridor is a detour as the elected corridor is.
> 
> Straight line and Cuenca (north) and Alcazar de San Juan (south):
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us
> 
> Alcazar de San Juan is 10 km further away of the direct line than Cuenca.


That was cheating. :|
If you draw a line from ALBACETE to Madrid, the line goes closer to Alcazar than to Cuenca.

Still, that´s no reason to moan, the travel time will be shorter anyway.


----------



## 437.001

JoFMO said:


> Cuenca looks like a detour because the whole line from Valencia to Madrid has three corners of 90 degrees: *Montilla*, Cuenca and Ocana. Togetehr they become a detour but aech of it on its own is well in line.


Not _Montilla_ (that´s in Cordova, on the Cordova-Malaga classic line), but *Motilla* del Palancar.


----------



## gincan

European Inventor Award 2013 Popular Prize was yesterday won by Spanish railway inventor José Luis López Gómez.

From the EPO site:

_The winner of the Popular Prize was José Luis López Gómez (Spain), whose invention to use a unique ‘independent guided' wheel design rather than a standard axle on high-speed passenger trains makes those trains some of the most comfortable and safe in the industry. The new technology also helps to reduce energy consumption, premature wear and costs of maintenance. An electronic system monitors the speed at which the wheels are rotating. Due to the wheels' slightly conical shape and the difference in length between the inner and outer tracks on a curved section of track, the system can determine the wheels' exact contact point. Pneumatic struts attached to the wheels then move the wheels to the best position._

http://www.epo.org/news-issues/press/releases/archive/2013/20130528.html


Here is a video about his work.


----------



## el palmesano

^^ great new!


----------



## 437.001

Think said:


> - The Seville HSL and the Valencia HSL arrive Madrid from the south. They meet at Torrejon de Velasco, 20 km out of Madrid, but they continue independently until Madrid (they are by-passes between the lines at Torrejon de Velasco).
> 
> - The tunnel is part of the Valencia HSL line. Now the Valencia HSL line isn't finished between Torrejon de Velaco and Madrid, so the trains comming from the east change to the Seville HSL the last 20 km to reach Madrid.
> 
> - The only place were the Valencia HSL has a conection with other lines is in Torrejon de Velasco (20 km out of Madrid as I said), you can't access the new tunnel via the tracks of Atocha.
> 
> - The tunnel is almost done, but the rest 20 km between the end of the tunnel and Torrejon the Velasco aren't expected to be done soon. If the tunnel is completly done it can't be used until the rest of the section is finished.
> 
> - Due to the isolation of the Valencia HSL until 20 km south of Madrid, the tunnel can't be reach from the Barcelona line. When the section Torrejon de Velasco-Chamatin will be done we could have trains from Valencia to Valladolid and from Corboba to Valladolid, but not from Barcelona to the North HSL.
> 
> A quick graphic of the situation:
> 
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Vaud said:


> I don't understand that underlined part. As I see from the map and given that both Valencia HSL and Barcelona-France HSL end up in the same place, why shouldn't trains from Barcelone be able to continue towards Valladolid whereas those from Valencia can do it?


That won´t be possible yet. The lines won´t be connected yet. 



> Or is the dotted line completely separated from the other?


It is.



> In that case, why would someone take such a stupid decision?


Because the stupid decision is not so stupid, in fact.



> Joining both lines somehow shouldn't be that hard if they both stop at Atocha,


They won´t both stop at Atocha in the first phase.



> therefore they must run close enough to each other to be able to intersect them.


They don´t.



OriK said:


> ^^ i'm not sure, but that entrance to Madrid is a rail nightmare... with mixed iberian and standard gauge tracks... there are a lot of tracks but kind of isolated for long stretches...
> 
> For example the tracks for C-3 and C-4 (commuter network) are between the Sevilla and Valencia (unfinished) LAVs


The Valencia/Alicante HSL will enter Atocha station rail yard without touching any other line since Torrejón de Velasco (where it connects with the Seville/Malaga HSL).

Like OriK tried to explain, the area is extremely cluttered, and building a connection with the Barcelona HSL right there is rather complicated (and will be left for a second or third phase... if it isn´t finally scrapped). 

When entering the Atocha rail yard, the line will start going underground, and will become single-track.

It will pass under Atocha station till a point past under the main entrance to the old station, where it will become double-track again, and continue underground till Chamartin station, which is the real end of the Valencia/Alicante HSL. 

The second phase of this project includes a new underground sector for Atocha station, underneath some of the current platforms, and can´t be started before that single-track provisional tunnel enters service, because that will allow to divert the trains to Chamartin station.

As you can imagine, building a new underground station under the current High-Speed platforms will be extremely disruptive, so there is no other choice than to divert trains to Chamartin station.

This means that trains will be able to run from Valladolid (or beyond in case of the Alvia) through Madrid underground, and then continue to either Seville (and Cadiz or Huelva), Malaga (or Granada or even Algeciras), Valencia (or Castellon or Gandia), and Alicante (or Murcia when the HSL to Murcia is finished).

*Why not to Barcelona, you may ask yourself??* :|

Because:

-there already exists a by-pass that links the Barcelona and Seville/Malaga HSLs. Barcelona is much more in touch with Southern Spain (Mediterranean) than with Northern Spain (Atlantic). 

-a HSL is on its way between Burgos and Leon (or between Burgos and Galicia) that will be used by the Barcelona trains, which will be Alvia anyway, and too many Alvia between Barcelona and Madrid would disturb the AVE.

-Northwestern Spain is much less in touch with Barcelona than it is with Madrid, with the exception of the Basque Country, Navarre and La Rioja, but those three wouldn´t use the connection under Madrid anyway, since the trains to Barcelona join the HSL at Saragossa.

-instead, the Valencia and Murcia regions, Andalusia, and Castile-La Mancha will greatly benefit from that connection to Valladolid and Northern Spain from day one, because that will be a great improvement for them. And that benefit wouldn´t be so immediate for the Barcelona HSL.

-the travel time from Barcelona to Cantabria would be horrendous anyway, and it wouldn´t beat the car nor the bus (nor of course the plane).

-the travel time from Barcelona to Galicia and Asturias will keep on improving bit by bit with the new HSLs.


----------



## alserrod

All of them, lines from Seville, Valencia and Barcelona will be able to cross under Madrid and go to Chamartin... but at first, Barcelona would require to "cut" all the tracks (if you see the map looking to north, a train will approach from the right side and has to go to the left side).

But for the problem of cutting all tracks at the same time just for a train going corner to corner of the station, Barcelona trains will not be allowed to go there

When a pass over rails for trains coming from Barcelona would be finished, they will be able without any doubt

But nothing expected in these years


----------



## Think

Vaud said:


> I don't understand that underlined part. As I see from the map and given that both Valencia HSL and Barcelona-France HSL end up in the same place, why shouldn't trains from Barcelone be able to continue towards Valladolid whereas those from Valencia can do it?
> 
> Or is the dotted line completely separated from the other? In that case, why would someone take such a stupid decision? Joining both lines somehow shouldn't be that hard if they both stop at Atocha, therefore they must run close enough to each other to be able to intersect them.


They go essentially parallel because they have to pass between the buildings of Madrid, but they are isolated. OriK gave you a clue:



OriK said:


> For example the tracks for C-3 and C-4 (commuter network) are between the Sevilla and Valencia (unfinished) LAVs


There are other infraestructures between the Seville and Valencia lines, and they don't go at the same elevation. The Valencia HSL goes on tunnel before it arrives to Atocha too.



alserrod said:


> All of them, lines from Seville, Valencia and Barcelona will be able to cross under Madrid and go to Chamartin... but at first, Barcelona would require to "cut" all the tracks (if you see the map looking to north, a train will approach from the right side and has to go to the left side).
> 
> But for the problem of cutting all tracks at the same time just for a train going corner to corner of the station, Barcelona trains will not be allowed to go there


It's not as easy. The tracks of Valencia doesn't arrive to the tracks of Atocha, they are buried before they reach the station, so you cannot make a corner to corner switching between Barcelona and the tunnel unless you could traverse the ground.

Out of the station, when both tracks are over the ground, there are iberian gauge tracks beetween them and they have different elevations. The only way to connect them is via a by-pass, with bridges and all the stuff. It is expected to be done but far into the future.


----------



## Suburbanist

Does anyone have a *detailed* track scheme of the MAdrid approaches? That would solve this discussion with a single chart. It is easy for people who know the situation to describe it with words but even looking at Google Maps imagery it is impossible to decipher all of this explaining.

EDIT: I found a scheme on Wikipedia but can't paste it: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_velocidad_en_España#L.C3.ADneas_en_servicio


----------



## CityDreamer

Suburbanist said:


> Does anyone have a *detailed* track scheme of the MAdrid approaches? That would solve this discussion with a single chart. It is easy for people who know the situation to describe it with words but even looking at Google Maps imagery it is impossible to decipher all of this explaining.
> 
> EDIT: I found a scheme on Wikipedia but can't paste it: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_velocidad_en_España#L.C3.ADneas_en_servicio


Very interesting!
It seems that in 2014 the Seville to Granda line can open up. Also the line from Valladolid to Leon and the line to Murcia, plus as far as Zamora (heading towards Galicia). Great progress!


----------



## Suburbanist

How easy is the transfer between Porta de ATocha and Atocha Subterránea?


----------



## 437.001

Think said:


> 437.001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No classic train had ever stopped at Antequera-Santa Ana station, despite it being available since the day the HSL Cordova-Antequera Santa Ana (and later Malaga) opened.
> 
> 
> 
> There were some Granada-Antequera Santa Ana regional shuttle trains on holidays.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I didn´t know about that.

Anyway, I meant daily service.



> They are uploading it to the sales system now. Waiting times from 10 to 40 minutes. As the gauge changing process requires like 30 minutes, the option is faster than the direct trains. Best time Granada-Madrid is 3h55m, while last week was 4h25m.


Interesting... :uh:


----------



## joseph1951

Suburbanist said:


> What is the platform height of HSL lines? Something that I always as dangerous in Spain is the low platform height, which ivnites pedestrian crossings.


Suburbanist,

Italy also has low height platforms to the extent that, during the refurbishment of Milan Central Station they forgot to raise the height of the platfroms even in one of busiest railways station in Italy.

Furthermore NTV, after having obtained the paths for this summer AGV Milan-Bologna Rimini - Ancona AGV service, had to postpone it to next year , because RFI has not yet raised the height of the platforms in Rimini Station.

In the last 20 years Italy has built about 770 km of so called High speed/High capacity lines (AV/AC lines)at a cost of around 40 billion euro (including the Bologna slow speed underpass, etc. Also they have already spent another 35 -40 billion euro in the Railway station refurbishment (Operaration Grandi Stazioni Spa) with very little result.

With the same amount of money, or less, *Spain and France* have built in excess of 4500 km of true HSLs and, in many cases, upgraded historic main Lines (whilst some historic main lines have been downgraded in Italy) and these two countries have also purchased in excess of 700 HSTs (against the 118 -120 HSTs purchased by Trenitalia).. 

And after having spent in the region of 40 billion euros to refurbish the Italian Railway stations only in a handful of them the platform heights were raised.

Perhaps one can say that the Spaniard have built too many (excellent) HSLs, but, if I were you, I wouldn't' worry too much about Spanish platform height. 

If I were you I would worry about Home.......


----------



## Peloso

joseph1951 said:


> Perhaps one can say that the Spaniard have built too many (excellent) HSLs, but, if I were you, I wouldn't' worry too much about Spanish platform height.
> 
> If I were you I would worry about Home.......


Joseph, Suburbanist was asking about Spain, not Macaroniland, which is OT here. He himself knows the predicament Italian railways are in, that's why he came to do the nitpicking in the Spanish section.


----------



## 437.001

Like I said, all High Speed stations have a platform height of 68cm. No level crossings, needless to say.

Same goes for most of the classic line stations (albeit not all of them).


----------



## skaP187

Think said:


> icard: A train doesn't get 300 km/h instantly and brakes from 300 to 0 in 20 meters. There isn't any high speed line in Europe that makes 421 km in 1'5 hours. The average speed of a current HSL is near 220 km/h. Wich makes 2 hours for Alicante-Madrid witout stops.


Then they shouldn´t promise 1,5 hours should they? (to be hounest I thought they promised 1 hour and 45 minutes)



Think said:


> Who dedices wich is the logical route, you?


Maybe they should have asked me, but strangly it are the politicians who decide and you know what has happened to this country.



Think said:


> A highway is cheaper that a HSL, so it is logical to make one direct highway for any city while it is logical to join the rail lines in the minium number of corridors passing the maximun number of *cities* possible.


Bigger cities yes, but less then 100 000 is a joke, because as you say, it´s very expensive to build a HSL. Or do you think they should make a stop in Elda, Sax and Monforte too?




Think said:


> Also look at the map that you drew, you part from Albacete (wich let Cuenca further), wich isn't exactly at the straight line, why would you pass via Albacete if it is not exactly at the direct line? Isn't it a tragedy too?


Because Albacete has the tripple amount of inhabitants as Cuenca maybe? The route from Alicante to Madrid never had anything to do with Cuenca. 
Albacete does. It has always been the splitting point from Madrid to Alicante of Murcia
I am not taking about tragedies, nobody died, but it just doesn´t make sence to me. Maybe you are from Cuenca and you´re pissed of, but that´s not my intention.


----------



## newen

Suburbanist said:


> What is the platform height of HSL lines? Something that I always as dangerous in Spain is the low platform height, which ivnites pedestrian crossings.


The platforms in ADIF's High Speed network follow the rules stablished by the Commission Decision 2008/164/CE concerning accessibility and interoperability: Either 550 mm or 760 mm above the running surface.

According to this:

http://www.adif.es/en_US/conoceradif/doc/CA_DRedEn_Completo.pdf (Section 3.6.5)


A platorm height of 550mm is used for conventional lines, whereas 760mm is used for high speed lines.

In some cases, a height of 680 mm is used for plaforms used for suburban or regional only traffic


----------



## gincan

joseph1951 said:


> Suburbanist,
> 
> Italy also has low height platforms to the extent that, during the refurbishment of Milan Central Station they forgot to raise the height of the platfroms even in one of busiest railways station in Italy.
> 
> Furthermore NTV, after having obtained the paths for this summer AGV Milan-Bologna Rimini - Ancona AGV service, had to postpone it to next year , because RFI has not yet raised the height of the platforms in Rimini Station.
> 
> In the last 20 years Italy has built about 770 km of so called High speed/High capacity lines (AV/AC lines)at a cost of around 40 billion euro (*including the Bologna slow speed underpass*, etc. Also they have already spent another 35 -40 billion euro in the Railway station refurbishment (Operaration Grandi Stazioni Spa) with very little result.
> 
> With the same amount of money, or less, *Spain and France* have built in excess of 4500 km of true HSLs and, in many cases, upgraded historic main Lines (whilst some historic main lines have been downgraded in Italy) and these two countries have also purchased in excess of 700 HSTs (against the 118 -120 HSTs purchased by Trenitalia)..
> 
> And after having spent in the region of 40 billion euros to refurbish the Italian Railway stations only in a handful of them the platform heights were raised.
> 
> Perhaps one can say that the Spaniard have built too many (excellent) HSLs, but, if I were you, I wouldn't' worry too much about Spanish platform height.
> 
> If I were you I would worry about Home.......


The Bologna slow speed underpass you will find exactly the same mistake being done in Valladolid and Vitoria Gasteiz on the "new" imperial line. Not to mention the "slow" Cordoba underpass or the "slow" Barcelona and Girona underpasses.


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> The Bologna slow speed underpass you will find *exactly the same mistake being done in Valladolid and Vitoria Gasteiz on the "new" imperial line*. Not to mention the "slow" Cordoba underpass or the "slow" Barcelona and Girona underpasses.


"Being done"? :| Well... done, not yet! :|


----------



## alserrod

Nor started


----------



## joseph1951

Peloso said:


> Joseph, Suburbanist was asking about Spain, not Macaroniland, which is OT here. He himself knows the predicament Italian railways are in, that's why he came to do the nitpicking in the Spanish section.


Peloso,

I know......


----------



## joseph1951

gincan said:


> The Bologna slow speed underpass you will find exactly the same mistake being done in Valladolid and Vitoria Gasteiz on the "new" imperial line. Not to mention the "slow" Cordoba underpass or the "slow" Barcelona and Girona underpasses.


OT:
Two possible mistakes made by the Spaniards do not justistify the many mistakes made by the Italians im costructing a few short stretches of HSLs ,at an astronomical cost. 

For the Bologna and Florence underpasses we are talking of about 5 billion euros (without including the cost of Bologna Isozaki AV station and Foster Florence AV station).

So far, on the Milan- Roma line , the main Italian HSLs and for which the cost of a HSLs could be justified the cost of Milano -Bologna and of the Bologna Florence HSLS was in excess of 14,8 billion euro (for less than 300 km/s of HSLs + and to this cost youmust also add the cost of Bologna and Florence mini-underpasses).



To cover the length of the Bologna underpass (17,8) km) it takes about 8 minutes, at an avergae speed of 132 km/h, and for the Florence underpass it will take 7-8 minutes to cover a distance of just 7 kms.

Estimated cost so far = 4 billion euros.

For the same cost, France and Spain have built much more HSLs.

Undoubtely in bulding an HSLs network some mistake can be made but, so far, the Italian are excelling in this "game".

END OF OT.


----------



## alserrod

Thanks for info nevertheless.....


It is maybe the reason why the line to Asturias is going to end just after the tunnel. Maybe in the future will be enlarged but not now. A high cost for a low saving time.


----------



## 437.001

*The new HSL between Albacete and Alicante will open on June the 18th*.

Tickets available from June the 10th at www.renfe.com, and at stations and travel agencies.

Best travel time from Madrid to Alicante cut to 2h20min. The top speed between Albacete and Alicante will be 200km/h.
This travel time will be cut even more when they finish testing the ETCS level 2 and the top speed will be raised to 300km/h.

AVEs Madrid-Alicante might call at Cuenca, Albacete, and Villena, although there´s word that not all will call at all stations.

The Alvia services Alicante-Santander, Alicante-Gijon and the weekend Alvia service Alicante-Corunna/Pontevedra will stay as Alvia.

Official Ministry announcement (in Spanish): http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/...7E849BE4/117940/130606LlegadaAVEaAlicante.pdf


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## Sunfuns

Probably a 2 h or a fraction more eventually. No reason to complain at all even if the route doesn't go on the straightest imaginable line. One would need a personal airplane to beat this service time wise.


----------



## AlexNL

I've done a quick search on the LAV Albacete - Alicante and notice that it's equipped with two safety systems: the Spanish ASFA-200, and ERTMS Level 2. Is there any reason to install two safety systems, now that ERTMS L2 has matured?


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> I've done a quick search on the LAV Albacete - Alicante and notice that it's equipped with two safety systems: the Spanish ASFA-200, and ERTMS Level 2. *Is there any reason to install two safety systems*, now that ERTMS L2 has matured?


I guess it must be because if one fails, the other assures the exploitation of the line. But I´m not sure.

ETCS Level 2 hasn´t matured yet on the line.


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## MarcVD

437.001 said:


> I guess it must be because if one fails, the other assures the exploitation of the line. But I´m not sure.
> 
> ETCS Level 2 hasn´t matured yet on the line.


Usually when two security systems are installed in parallel on a railway line,
most components are common, it's only the interfaces between trains and
ground that are duplicated. Which means that if one fails, the other one is
probably down too.

Most often, when a system is installed in parallel with ETCS, it's because the
line will be used by rolling stock which does not have ETCS fitted. Sometimes
it's not possible to install it, just because of space constraints, or sometimes
it is not economic to do it given the expected residual life of the stock. See
SNCF for example, with TVM430 installed almost systematically in parallel with 
ETCS because most of their TGV stock will never have ETCS fitted in.


----------



## 437.001

*Timetables for the new AVE and Alvia service on the Madrid-Alicante HSL:*

http://www.diarioinformacion.com/el...NF/File/02.- HORARIOS AVE MADRID-ALICANTE.pdf


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a question: why did they build the Sevilla-Madrid line so many years before Madrid-Barcelona, which would have been a far more logical option?


----------



## Attus

Does it really worth to build a HSL for as much as 11 services daily (per direction)? I don't think so.


----------



## OriK

It's simple but still good looking, I like it! and I hope it will get passengers as it seems that using a car is compulsory from there...


----------



## AlexNL

Villena AV's station looks gorgeous. :drool:


----------



## gincan

OriK said:


> It's simple but still good looking, I like it! and I hope it will get passengers as it seems that using a car is compulsory from there...


It will suffer the same problem as every other rural HSR train station in Spain. Due to lack of coordination they build the train station and forget to build proper access points. This look just like another Camp de Tarragona where they also forgot to build proper access points.

I station is IMO worthless if you can't reach it in a practical way, Villena as it stand now has poor road connection only accessible through backroads, it lacks proper direct road access to A-31. And by that I mean a new purpose built road dead straight between the train station and the motorway.


----------



## 437.001

A picture of Alicante station, in which you can see the new parking / taxi / bus/ park & ride area. 
I swear that last weekend it did look much worse. They are fast.
I don´t particularly like the new extension of the station, but since it´s not definitive (they say...). 



Spcoaster said:


> From www.adif.com


----------



## 437.001

An AVE S-100, shortly after leaving Alicante bound for Madrid-Atocha. 



vichase said:


>


----------



## skaP187

That´s the tunnel you can see from the highway?


----------



## 437.001

*More austerity in Spain* :sleepy:
Railway plans revised.

*HSL Galicia*: 

-HSL between Olmedo and Ourense will open in single-track, with long crossing points.
-new Ourense station to be revised.
-branch to Vigo goes ahead.
-cuts of cost of Medina del Campo, Puebla de Sanabria and Gudiña stations by revision of each project.

*HSL Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria*:

-will open till Burgos normally as previewed.
-third rail between Burgos and Vitoria.

*HSL Basque "Y"*:

-will open as previewed except for the new accesses to Bilbao and Vitoria.
-New Vitoria and San Sebastian-Astigarraga stations postponed.
-HSL between San Sebastian-Astigarraga and Irun postponed.
-Third rail connections to current Bilbao-Abando and Vitoria stations, and also between San Sebastian and Irun (3kV, so no TGV Paris-Bilbao :|).

*Mediterranean Corridor (sector Valencia-Almeria)*:

-HSL Valencia-La Encina/Villena as previewed.
-third rail on classic line between Valencia and La Encina.
-reconstruction of the old classic line in Iberian gauge between La Encina and Xativa. in single track (room left for future double-tracking).
-HSL Monforte del Cid/Alicante-Murcia as previewed.
-gauge change of the classic line between Alicante and Albatera-Catral.
-Murcia new station postponed. Third rail instead.
-HSL Murcia-Cartagena project postponed. Third rail and electrification of classic line instead.
-HSL Murcia-Lorca goes ahead but without new Lorca station. Lorca.San Diego and Lorca-Sutullena stations will be upgraded. Not sure wether single or double track.
-HSL Lorca-Almeria is not mentioned (cancelled?).

*Mediterranean Corridor (sector Valencia-Tarragona)*:

-third rail in the two tracks between Valencia and Sagunto.
-third rail in one track between Sagunto and Castellon.
-gauge change between Castellon and Tarragona, including the Tortosa branch.
-classic line Vandellos-Cambrils-Salou-Tarragona not mentioned (not sure about what will happen, there´s a project of expanding the commuter trains).

*Ebro Corridor (sector Saragossa-Pamplona-Vitoria)*:

-third rail between Saragossa and Castejón
-new HSL Castejón-Pamplona built in single track, standard gauge.
-gauge change between Pamplona and Alsasua.
-third rail between Alsasua and Vitoria.
-new station at new location at Pamplona goes ahead, but the project is revised.

*Antequera-Granada HSL*:

-HSL will open only till Archidona, classic line with third rail instead.
-Granada new station postponed.

*HSL Palencia-Leon-Asturias*:

-HSL Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon goes ahead as previewed.
-Valladolid, Venta de Baños, Palencia and Leon station projects postponed. Upgrades instead.
-no standard gauge for the Pajares tunnels OR third rail between Leon and La Robla and one of the two tubes in standard gauge and the other in Iberian gauge (classic line through Pajares Pass maintained in any case).

*Atocha-Chamartín connection and new HSL Madrid-Torrejón de Velasco junction*:

-the project goes ahead as previewed.

*Madrid-Extremadura-Lisbon HSL (sector Madrid-Badajoz)*:

-Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida-Badajoz HSL opens in single track, Iberian gauge and diesel.
-Plasencia, Cáceres, Mérida and Badajoz new station projects postponed.
-section between Madrid and Plasencia is not mentioned.

*Seville-Cadiz classic line upgrade*:

-goes ahead as previewed as previewed.

*HSL projects not mentioned on the report (and postponed? cancelled?)*:

-Lorca-Almeria.
-Seville-Antequera.
-Madrid-Talavera-Plasencia.
-all the other HSLs drawn on any map and not started nor projected nor seriously talked about (Saragossa-Teruel-Valencia, Medina del Campo-Salamanca, Avila-Salamanca, Madrid-Avila, Palencia-Santander, Bilbao-Santander, Castejón-Logroño-Miranda, Coruña-Ferrol-Oviedo-Santander, Seville-Huelva, Madrid-Jaen, Leon-Ponferrada-Monforte-Lugo-Coruña...).


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## Coccodrillo

^^ Muchas gracias por las noticias tu siempre escribes // thank you for the news you always write 



> branch to Vigo goes ahead.


Is it a wise decision? If I have understood correctly it needs an 18 km tunnel (plus the 8 km one of Vigo), and just for a single city.



> Valladolid, Venta de Baños, Palencia and Leon station projects postponed. Upgrades instead.


So León will remain with its dead-end station?

Why not building a new one here (or nearby), which would still be near the city centre?

However, keeping the old station as it was would have been better. With all freight and León-Galicia passenger trains going via the new southern bypass, the (in)famous "Crucero" level crossing could have been kept for passenger trains to Asturias, hardly more than 20 a day (10 round trips).


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> ^^ Muchas gracias por las noticias tu siempre escribes // thank you for the news you always write


Grazie per le notizie _che tu scrivi_ sempre = Gracias por las noticias _que escribes_ siempre.



>


Prego. 

Btw, I wrote a bit fast, because that was apparently a leak we had this afternoon and I was busy doing stuff for my real life (doesn´t look like it, but I actually have one! :clown. So if someone has any questions, go on about it.



> Is it a wise decision? If I have understood correctly it needs an 18 km tunnel (plus the 8 km one of Vigo), and just for a single city.


Incorrect: the 18km tunnel is for a future phase, when the Portuguese dunno will agree to build a High-Speed link between Porto and Vigo naughty. 
Actually, for now there´s talks about electrifying the classic line between Nine and Valença and across the Minho till Guillarei, so that gives you an idea of how advanced is that 18km tunnel... :|

The 8km tunnel between Redondela and Vigo has already been bored, and that must link Vigo to Pontevedra, Santiago and Madrid (and Corunna).



> So León will remain with its dead-end station?


For now, it will. We all knew it was going to be the case. It´s a shame and a waste of travel time, but well... now there´s no going back.



> Why not building a new one here (or nearby), which would still be near the city centre?


_[mode Thatcher ON]_ NO! NO!... NO!_[/mode Thatcher OFF]_



> However, keeping the old station as it was would have been better. With all freight and León-Galicia passenger trains going via the new southern bypass, the (in)famous "Crucero" level crossing could have been kept for passenger trains to Asturias, hardly more than 20 a day (10 round trips).


You are right.
In the end, I think they´ll end up building the station in its old location but in a cut.


----------



## OriK

Maybe something miraculous happen and the Madrid-Talavera-Plasencia branch gets Madrid-Toledo-Talavera-Plasencia when reactivated....

The works in Toledo would be really difficult, but it could be compensated by the reduction in kms.










(La Sagra Station is a technical station that actually exist without passenger services, it was supposed to be a possible common station for LAV Toledo and LAV NAFA in the future as well).


----------



## alserrod

How would they deal with ending Toledo station in that way?


----------



## gincan

As i thought, Lorca-Almeria is canned and Spain end up with la Engaña 2.0 :nuts:

For those that don't understand this, La Engaña was a 7 km railway tunnel built but never opened on a railway line that was never finished. Now version 2.0 is here in the form of Sorbas tunnel, 400 million euros have been wasted on a 7,5 km tunnel from nowhere to nowhere :rant:

49447376


----------



## el palmesano

Mare_nostrvm said:


> Alicante's new temporary railway station aerial view..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://multimedia.diarioinformacion.com/fotos/alicante/ave-imagenes-7125_6.shtml


how will look it in the future??


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## 437.001

el palmesano said:


> how will look it in the future??


Near future, like this.
Distant future, we can´t know that yet.



gincan said:


> As i thought, Lorca-Almeria is canned and Spain end up with la Engaña 2.0 :nuts:
> 
> For those that don't understand this, La Engaña was a 7 km railway tunnel built but never opened on a railway line that was never finished. Now version 2.0 is here in the form of Sorbas tunnel, 400 million euros have been wasted on a 7,5 km tunnel from nowhere to nowhere :rant:


We´ll see, but I´m not so sure about it.
A reconnection of the Region of Murcia and Eastern Andalusia is demanded since 1985.
Oh, yes, they shouldn´t have closed the Almendricos-Guadix line, we all know that, it was a terrible mistake.
But the deed is done. I´m not that pessimistic about this line though. Keep in mind that next to where I live there´s the Tarragona-Vandellos stretch, which was started 20 years ago (yes, twenty years ago), and it´s only now that they´re starting to finish it.

I don´t think it would be right to have that rail gap for many more years.

But you know, we´re in a crisis, the biggest in many years, because we had the housing bubble, and now it´s time to slow down and recover.



OriK said:


> Maybe something miraculous happen and the Madrid-Talavera-Plasencia branch gets Madrid-Toledo-Talavera-Plasencia when reactivated....
> 
> The works in Toledo would be really difficult, but it could be compensated by the reduction in kms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (La Sagra Station is a technical station that actually exist without passenger services, it was supposed to be a possible common station for LAV Toledo and LAV NAFA in the future as well).


I hope that will be done. I think it wouldn´t be right to skip Toledo and leave it like a dead end once again.

But that´ll take time, and it won´t be cheap at all. But I think it could be worth it in case the whole HSL to Lisbon was to be finished.

Lots of patience will be needed.



alserrod said:


> How would they deal with ending Toledo station in that way?


By boring a tunnel under Toledo. It´s not cheap, but it could be done.
If the HSL to Lisbon started at Toledo and not at Pantoja, it would connect SIX UNESCO World Heritage sites or cities (Lisbon, Evora, Merida, Caceres, Toledo and Madrid). That could be very attractive for tourism (and for business too, of course).


----------



## 437.001

*Important news*:

-looks like *a Euromed service Valencia-Barcelona will be extended till Figueres-Vilafant station*, providing an interesting link to one of the two TGV Figueres Vilafant-Paris Gare de Lyon. More data as soon as I have it.

-*extension of the Cercanías C4 commuter train line from Colmenar Viejo to Soto del Real given the go ahead*. The construction project (sorry for my bad technical English) has yet to be passed, and after that, only the execution of the works would be left.


----------



## 437.001

^^ 
Apparently, these will be the timetables for the new Euromed service. 
Starting on Sunday the 23rd of June!!



jotaerre said:


> *Figueres Vilafant 18:30-->23:28 Valencia*


For now, the northbound service isn´t available yet, but jotaerre says this (and his guesses usually have a high probability of happening): 



> *Valencia 06:40-->11:28 Figueres Vilafant*


----------



## Think

437.001 said:


> *More austerity in Spain* :sleepy:
> Railway plans revised.


If it is effectively done in the near future it is better than I expected.




437.001 said:


> -HSL will open only till Archidona, classic line with third rail instead.


The plan is to use the new line with only one track, except for Loja (~10km) and the access to Granada (2,3 km). It doesn't make sense to electrify the old line when the new one is done in these sections.


----------



## Think

The Adif document that was leaked is this one:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bziz-Qcsk4E4RndnSlhLdEFYTVE/edit


----------



## Ribarca

Think said:


> If it is effectively done in the near future it is better than I expected.
> 
> 
> 
> The plan is to use the new line with only one track, except for Loja (~10km) and the access to Granada (2,3 km). It doesn't make sense to electrify the old line when the new one is done in these sections.


No need for austerity if they stop buying ghost stations. Like the Villena one. Another 100+ million the tax payers have to cough up.


http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/06/23/actualidad/1372003013_571052.html


----------



## 437.001

Ribarca said:


> No need for austerity if they stop buying ghost stations. Like the Villena one. Another 100+ million the tax payers have to cough up.
> 
> 
> http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/06/23/actualidad/1372003013_571052.html


I´m not sure about the accuracy of the numbers that El País shows, the way they put them.

The station itself has no problems, and in fact it has been resized to reduce costs. 

If the local authorities are mediocre enough as to not provide any decent means of public transport to it, it´s their fault. 
It´s not like the construction of the station hadn´t been announced.
As for the station access, it wasn´t the Ministry´s bidding, but the Valencian regional government´s, who have failed miserably to build them.

The area is rather populated, don´t fool yourself: the article says that the number of passengers the day it opened was mediocre, but it actually wasn´t.

I admit though that the day that this station will have a decent access will improve its numbers considerably.


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Are there any plans to build a HSR to Andorra from Girona?


Only when you have wet dreams.


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> :lol:
> Look at the landscape.
> One HSL is enough of a scar. A motorway next to it would be just too much.


It depends on how you look at it. Here in the Netherlands, the government opted for "bundling" the high speed line with the highways as much as possible to reduce the impact on the landscape. As a result, the line follows much of the A4 from Schiphol to Leiden, and the A16/E19 from the Hollandsch Diep to Antwerp.

Combining a highway and a high speed line makes for one area of noise and landscape damage, not impacting the landscape and wildlife further down.


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## alserrod

I would state that neither in that case.

There was a project to have a short commuter train till La Seu..... But in some other time and with more money.

Arriving to La Seu from Lerida (maybe easiest way) would be hard.

In fact, the easiest connection from Andorra to railway is with France via Pas de la casa. But.... standard railway therw and several tunnels


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## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> It depends on how you look at it. Here in the Netherlands, the government opted for "bundling" the high speed line with the highways as much as possible to reduce the impact on the landscape. As a result, the line follows much of the A4 from Schiphol to Leiden, and the A16/E19 from the Hollandsch Diep to Antwerp.
> 
> Combining a highway and a high speed line makes for one area of noise and landscape damage, not impacting the landscape and wildlife further down.


 

Er... yeah, but as you´ve just seen on the pic, the Basque Country is a bit more, er... _hilly_, than the Netherlands. 
Which makes things _a teensy bit more_ tricky. :lol:

And yes, in part, it follows a motorway, but motorways can have a gradient that HSR can´t. 
And this particular line will be mixed HSR-freight, and mixed HSLs are allergic to steep gradients.


----------



## alserrod

Except in high mountains... it is near so hilly to Switzerland...


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## 437.001

alserrod said:


> Except in high mountains... it is near so hilly to Switzerland...


Sorry, are you answering me? :?


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> Er... yeah, but as you´ve just seen on the pic, the Basque Country is a bit more, er... _hilly_, than the Netherlands.


Only by a little bit.:lol:



> Which makes things _a teensy bit more_ tricky. :lol:


Nah, kidding, I have an idea of what the region looks like, I've seen plenty of pictures. I've also spent numerous vacations with my parents in northern Spain (Costa Brava), going there by car. 


> And yes, in part, it follows a motorway, but motorways can have a gradient that HSR can´t.
> And this particular line will be mixed HSR-freight, and mixed HSLs are allergic to steep gradients.


Very true


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## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> Nah, kidding, I have an idea of what the region looks like, I've seen plenty of pictures. I've also spent numerous vacations with my parents in northern Spain (Costa Brava), going there by car.


The Costa Brava is not what we Spaniards call "The North", the Costa Brava is the Med, Eastern Spain: Northeastern Spain actually, but still far more southern than the Basque Country geographically, and also in mind, spirit and climate.

Many Europeans overlook the Spanish Atlantic coast, while it has little to envy Britain or Ireland. Remember these words.


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## Suburbanist

^^ /off-topic comment: the water is just too cold to allow swimming in April or October like it is possible on the Mediterranean. It also rains a lot west of Gijón.


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## K_

437.001 said:


> Many Europeans overlook the Spanish Atlantic coast, while it has little to envy Britain or Ireland. Remember these words.


I don't. I have been sailing in Galicia last summer. Best food ever...

Interesting train ride back to Switzerland too. Confirms that RENFE has probably the best trains in Europe at the moment, but no clue whatsoever how to get the most out of them...


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## 437.001

K_ said:


> I don't. I have been sailing in Galicia last summer. Best food ever...


:naughty:



> Interesting train ride back to Switzerland too. Confirms that RENFE has probably the best trains in Europe at the moment, but no clue whatsoever how to get the most out of them...


What exactly do you mean? 
Because I wouldn´t say Renfe has the best trains in Europe... :sly:

Overall, I´d say French trains are better, and also better used. They don´t shake that much.


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## Suburbanist

I think the best high-speed trains in Europe running at the moment are the AGVs from Italo. Those from RENFE come second place. Then the TGVs or Thalys, then the refurbished "Freccie" from Trenitalia, then ICEs, then Eurostar.


----------



## 압둘라-爱- LOVE

*Al Haramain high speed rail with spanish train*

*El diseño de la obra del AVE Medina-La Meca y el material rodante se ajustan a los plazos
*


(Saudi Arabia) Al Haramain high speed rail [Talgo 350] >> Spainish Train


http://treneando.com/2013/07/03/el-...dina-la-meca-y-el-material-rodante-en-plazos/


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## K_

437.001 said:


> What exactly do you mean?
> Because I wouldn´t say Renfe has the best trains in Europe... :sly:


I haven't travelled that much by train in Spain yet, but what I have seen has impressed me.
The trains on the Vigo - A Coruna line were modern, and clean. Cleaner even than one would expect in Switzerland. The night train from A Coruna to Barcelona idem. I think that the "Trenotel" is the right way to operate a modern night train.
I also travelled the regional network around Barcelona, and especially the FGC network struck me as modern and efficient (and punctual).
However, I see a lot of unrealised potential too.
For example, in Galicia the network is good enough that you could capture a significant slice of commuter traffic. Currently however the service levels (the trains themselves are great) are to low, the fact that you need to reserve even for a short trip from Vilagarcia to Santiago and the lack of integration are big handicaps. These things all can be fixed quite cheaply. 
The Spanish railways should investigate how they can get more out of their existing network and rolling stock, before pouring more money (that Spain doesn't really have at the moment) in to infrastructure.


----------



## M-NL

Suburbanist said:


> Then the TGVs or Thalys, then the refurbished "Freccie" from Trenitalia, then ICEs, then Eurostar.


TGV/Thalys better then the ICE. I don't agree. I'm tall and I feel the interior of the TGV was designed for people with southern European posture, whereas the ICE was built with the taller north Europeans in mind.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Suburbanist said:


> I think the best high-speed trains in Europe running at the moment are the AGVs from Italo. Those from RENFE come second place. Then the TGVs or Thalys, then the refurbished "Freccie" from Trenitalia, then ICEs, then Eurostar.


I've recently traveled on the Thalys and it was a decrepit train compared to the ICE3 I traveled on earlier.


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> I haven't travelled that much by train in Spain yet, but what I have seen has impressed me.
> The trains on the Vigo - A Coruna line were modern, and clean. Cleaner even than one would expect in Switzerland. The night train from A Coruna to Barcelona idem. I think that the "Trenotel" is the right way to operate a modern night train.
> I also travelled the regional network around Barcelona, and especially the FGC network struck me as modern and efficient (and punctual).


FGC standards are rather high, that´s true.
They work the way we´d like Renfe to work (though in some aspects Renfe does better, in my opinion: FGC is a bit too automatized to me, it lacks a bit of human element).



> However, I see a lot of unrealised potential too.
> For example, in Galicia the network is good enough that you could capture a significant slice of commuter traffic. Currently however the service levels (the trains themselves are great) are to low, the fact that you need to reserve even for a short trip from Vilagarcia to Santiago and the lack of integration are big handicaps. These things all can be fixed quite cheaply.
> The Spanish railways should investigate how they can get more out of their existing network and rolling stock, before pouring more money (that Spain doesn't really have at the moment) in to infrastructure.


They´re into that. Recently they´ve lowered the fares for the long distance trains, and trains are more crowded now. These need compulsory reservation anyway.

But for regional trains (the Santiago to Vilagarcía trip you´re telling about, for instance), I agree that many of these trains shouldn´t have the compulsory reservation. Many other forumers agree abou that, too.



M-NL said:


> TGV/Thalys better then the ICE. I don't agree. I'm tall and I feel *the interior of the TGV was designed for people with southern European posture, whereas the ICE was built with the taller north Europeans in mind*.


The TGV has also the same problem when compared to the AVE (even to the ones built by Alstom). I don´t think it´s a Northern vs Southern thing.


----------



## Ribarca

AlexNL said:


> It depends on how you look at it. Here in the Netherlands, the government opted for "bundling" the high speed line with the highways as much as possible to reduce the impact on the landscape. As a result, the line follows much of the A4 from Schiphol to Leiden, and the A16/E19 from the Hollandsch Diep to Antwerp.
> 
> Combining a highway and a high speed line makes for one area of noise and landscape damage, not impacting the landscape and wildlife further down.


But we are a very dense country to start with especially along the coast. It makes sense then to combine the two. But we don't have real untouched nature like the picture shown.


----------



## Ribarca

Silly_Walks said:


> I've recently traveled on the Thalys and it was a decrepit train compared to the ICE3 I traveled on earlier.


I have travelled a lot with the Thalys from Amsterdam for a few months and I have always been in very nice and reasonably new trains. My main issue is the narrowness. It's a big issue getting in and out with a heavy bag at a busy station.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Ribarca said:


> I have travelled a lot with the Thalys from Amsterdam for a few months and I have always been in very nice and reasonably new trains. My main issue is the narrowness. It's a big issue getting in and out with a heavy bag at a busy station.


Well this, plus the window I was at was broken, and there was no apology about this or anything. The electric outlet was also malfunctioning. Leg room was less than on the ICE (I have long legs, legroom is not a luxury for me, it's a necessity), Chinese trains I've been on had more legroom.
On the return trip the window wasn't broken, but the train left an hour late without any explanations as to why (rumor was the train was broken).
Also, the ride itself was rather bumpy, even on the newest of HS tracks, not like the smooth ride I had on Chinese ICE3 derivatives.


----------



## alserrod

I assume that for any foreing citizen, trying to understand the administration in Spain can be a nightmare.

All regions have an autonomous government and for several topics have full power to decide. They can be more or less topics... but they have.

Basque country is the one with more topics and in the case of infrastructure it includes almost all except:

- Airports
- The tolled motorway AP-68 (it crosses five regions)
- conventional railway (there is no stretch completely within Basque country). Btw, the one-metre railway is Basque management until Bilbao
- HSL in construction
- and... I do not know wether about the harbours



So.... nothing related to Basque country although it is there. The line is being built with the general Spanish budget.

(I know.... a nightmare to be understood....)


----------



## OriK

In fact it's even more complicated than that...

Euskadi is a rich autonomy and has a special budget (it's the most autonomous region in Spain).

They manage almost everything within their region... they collect all the taxes (in the rest of Spain, with the exception of Navarra, the central government collects most taxes and then it distributes them) and they pay a quota to the central government for the provided services (security, embassies, airports, railways, etc...).

That is sometimes a reason for confrontation because they pay much less for solidarity than the other rich regions of Spain (like Madrid or Catalonia) and therefore they have lower taxes (being called by some people as unfair competition) but that's another topic...

There was an agreement between the Central Government and the Basque Government in 2006 regarding the new high speed lines (the Basque Y), as it was a huge investment for the central government (almost unaffordable in the short term), the Basque government is responsible of building some stretches, but as it's a responsability of the central government, those construction costs are deducted from their quota.

I agree with alserrod... the Spanish administration is hard to understand (even for some Spaniards)... that's because Spain is de facto an asymmetric federation.


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## alserrod

Nevertheless.... to make it easier... all HSL in Spain are built and managed by Spanish government, never mind where it is, so it doesn't matter the situation of a region.


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## Ribarca

The economic situation of a region obviously does matter. If you build a new HS: train station for example it's part of a masterplan. The station does not stand on its own. For everything around the station the economic situation of the region and city are key.


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## 437.001

Ribarca said:


> The economic situation of a region obviously does matter. If you build a new HS: train station for example it's part of a masterplan. The station does not stand on its own. For everything around the station the economic situation of the region and city are key.


It depends on what you´re talking about.


----------



## 437.001

According to some forumer, mono-block sleepers are being sent to the Olmedo-Zamora stretch of the Madrid-Galicia HSL. If confirmed, that´s excellent news.


----------



## 437.001

*Accident!!* :cripes:

An Alvia Madrid-Ferrol (a class S-730) has derailed shortly before entering *Santiago de Compostela* station.

10 dead, it seems. That´s all I know for now.

We don´t know why, and it is a strange place to derail. More info as soon as we have it. 

Honest, this hasn´t been a good month for railways: Lac-Mégantic, Brétigny sur Orge, now Santiago de Compostela. :no:



Manamer said:


>





Manamer said:


> Source: https://twitter.com/alberto_RM10/status/360116971074887681


RIP to the victims, and the quickest recovery to the injured.


----------



## 437.001

:cripes: This is a coach, the railway is behind the fence, in a cutting. :cripes:



Arañons said:


>


----------



## Woonsocket54

This changes everything.


----------



## Galandar

Bad news  R.I.P to those people


----------



## AlexNL

Horrible. My thoughts go out to the victims and their relatives.


----------



## 437.001

20 dead for now.


----------



## 437.001

Woonsocket54 said:


> This changes everything.


Sorry? What did you just say?


----------



## Woonsocket54

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/album/...roviario-santiago/01101374695286198623951.htm


----------



## 437.001

For what we know now, the accident has happened right before the point where the HSL joins the classic line.

At this point, the Alvia should NOT be running at a high speed at all (suffices to look at the pictures to realise).


----------



## Woonsocket54

http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/album/...roviario-santiago/01101374695286198623951.htm


----------



## 437.001

^^ The train was running on the track at the left of the pic.

It was an Alvia service coming from Madrid, and it was bound for Ferrol, this has happened just a few minutes (less than five) before calling at Santiago de Compostela station.

Santiago de Compostela is located in Galicia (NW Spain).


----------



## Suburbanist

Were those high-speed tracks?


----------



## 437.001

*Several killed in Spanish train derailment*

http://www.france24.com/en/20130724-several-reported-dead-spanish-train-crash


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Were those high-speed tracks?


Yes. But obviously, the speed at the point should not surpass 200 in any case at all. That´s the approach of the junction with the classic line and Santiago de Compostela station (an important one, it is the regional capital of Galicia).


----------



## 437.001

God... at least 35 killed. :cripes:


----------



## Woonsocket54

Let me make sure I understand this:

The Alvia train is designed to run on both high-speed and conventional tracks. It looks like just to the southwest of the SdC railway station there is a place where the conventional tracks merge into the high-speed tracks, close to the Santiago de Cuba Avenue overpass. The accident happened just past there and a few hundred meters before the SdC railway station. The train was in the easternmost track, which means it merged from the conventional tracks onto the high-speed tracks? At that point the train should be slowing down if it is scheduled to stop at SdC. What could have happened?


----------



## gramercy

location:
https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.86478,-8.55116&spn=0.005796,0.004013&t=h&z=17


this is fucked up, especially because from both directions several sharp bends precede this particular one so it couldn't have been traveling that fast, otherwise it would have derailed earlier

EDIT

I was completely wrong, seems like this is the location:
map: https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.859716,-8.528471&spn=0.005332,0.007628&t=h&z=17
street view: https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.8596...AH60d-MiuExF7Aje89TAQg&cbp=12,142.86,,0,15.41


looks like directly at the END of the HSL straight out of the tunnel and into the bend/bridge


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

A "patito" Talgo 250...hno:


----------



## 437.001

gramercy said:


> location:
> https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.86478,-8.55116&spn=0.005796,0.004013&t=h&z=17
> 
> 
> this is fucked up, especially because from both directions several sharp bends precede this particular one so it couldn't have been traveling that fast, otherwise it would have derailed earlier


It is not there. ^^

It is here (red circle, the red arrow shows the place it came from):



Master_AS said:


> http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=42.859467~-8.527319&lvl=19&dir=0&sty=a&form=LMLTCC


----------



## Woonsocket54

^^ Google really needs to update its satellite imagery for this part of Spain. Bing is way ahead.


----------



## gramercy

437.001 said:


> It is not there. ^^
> 
> It is here (red circle, the red arrow shows the place it came from):


yes, thank you, managed to figure it out based on the bridge pylons


----------



## 437.001

Live streaming from TVE: http://www.rtve.es/noticias/directo/canal-24h/

35 dead and 200 injured (some critical). The train was packed. 4 km before Santiago station.

It´s the worst train accident in Spain that I can remember.


----------



## zazo1

Woonsocket54 said:


> Let me make sure I understand this:
> 
> The Alvia train is designed to run on both high-speed and conventional tracks. It looks like just to the southwest of the SdC railway station there is a place where the conventional tracks merge into the high-speed tracks, close to the Santiago de Cuba Avenue overpass. The accident happened just past there and a few hundred meters before the SdC railway station. The train was in the easternmost track, which means it merged from the conventional tracks onto the high-speed tracks? At that point the train should be slowing down if it is scheduled to stop at SdC. What could have happened?


Some of the survivors talk about a huge explosion before the train blew up, because actually one of the wagons exploded 15 meters away from the track.... strange.


----------



## Woonsocket54

437.001 said:


> It´s the worst train accident in Spain that I can remember.


In 2006 a metro train in Valencia derailed, killing 43.


----------



## 437.001

The bend was limited to 80 km/h.


----------



## 437.001

zazo said:


> Some of the survivors talk about a huge explosion before the train blew up, because actually one of the wagons exploded 15 meters away from the track.... strange.


Because it was a 730, a hybrid, the back engine caught fire, there might have been a small explosion.



Woonsocket54 said:


> In 2006 a metro train in Valencia derailed, killing 43.


Oh god, it´s true. Nerves. :doh:


----------



## gramercy

is the speed entirely up to the driver? what happens if a driver gets a heart attack on a HSL? doesn't the train know to slow down before such bends no matter what?


----------



## zazo1

What is this wagon doing up here??


----------



## Busfotodotnl

The regular track scene here, from 31:00 onwards:


----------



## stofzuiger

zazo said:


> What is this track doing up here??


That is not a track. The cabin landed there.


----------



## Woonsocket54

^^ How did that get up there?

It looks like something out of a Keanu Reeves movie.


----------



## zazo1

stofzuiger said:


> That is not a track. The cabin landed there.


Sorry, wagon.


----------



## Vaud

Oh my gosh, RIP to the victims hno: Why are there so many dead? the talgo coaches seem to have withstood the crash pretty well hno: Everytime something like this occurs, I can't help but put myself in that situation of being totally impotent... you're just travelling comfortably when suddenly...


----------



## Nikom

Sad news, RIP to all victims hno: In the news they're saying that the accident was in a tricky curve..


----------



## temlin

Busfotodotnl said:


> The regular track scene here, from 31:00 onwards:


ERTMS level II?


----------



## zazo1

temlin said:


> ERTMS level II?


ERTMS level 1

The accident happened in the union of the new HSL route and the historic route. Actually on the historic route. _(new tracks in both)_
Now it's thought there has been an human mistake, the speed limit is 80 km/h, probably the train was going at 180 km/h


----------



## 437.001

gramercy said:


> is the speed entirely up to the driver? what happens if a driver gets a heart attack on a HSL? doesn't the train know to slow down before such bends no matter what?


We don´t know yet. The sector was under the ERTMS-level 1 system.


----------



## 437.001

zazo said:


> What is this wagon doing up here??


Excessive speed is a possibility. But we don´t know, so let´s allow the enquiry go ahead and we´ll all know.


----------



## 437.001

Nikom said:


> Sad news, RIP to all victims hno: It the news they're saying that the accident was in a tricky curve..


It was just the end of the HSL. The point right before it connects with the classic line.

The trains should NOT run faster than 80 km/h at that point.

On the pic just above this post ^^, the track on the left is the classic line, the two on the right are the HSL.


----------



## Peloso

Vaud said:


> Oh my gosh, RIP to the victims hno: Why are there so many dead? the talgo coaches seem to have withstood the crash pretty well


Take a careful look at the pic posted by Zazo, there is a SECTION of a car under the bridge. It was a very violent crash, in such a case injuries cannot be other than serious. I feel for the poor people there.


----------



## 437.001

The catenary posts might have been murderous in this case.


----------



## Mr_Dru

According the latest journals there are 35 dead. My god!


----------



## 437.001

Inside the train there were 218 passengers plus the staff.


----------



## Vaud

I'm watching TVE International, which is live covering the sad event, and if I understand it well the experts have already dismissed the hypothesis of an explosion


----------



## Woonsocket54

working hypothesis is accident, according to government officials cited by Reuters

http://www.trust.org/item/20130724215042-vz4yt


----------



## zazo1

437.001 said:


> It was just the end of the HSL. The point right before it connects with the classic line.
> 
> The trains should NOT run faster than 80 km/h at that point.
> 
> On the pic just above this post ^^, the track on the left is the classic line, the two on the right are the HSL.


Ingineers think the train exceeded in 100 km/h the speed limit: 180 km/h instead 80 km/h.
Some mistake happened in the train, the security system or the driver...

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/07/24/actualidad/1374701732_356780.html


----------



## Busfotodotnl

Other rumours about a disfunctional axle-interlock (this train is capable to run on both normal gauge and the old Spanian gauge.


----------



## 437.001

37 dead. :no:


----------



## 437.001

zazo said:


> *Ingineers think the train exceeded in 100 km/h the speed limit: 180 km/h instead 80 km/h*.
> Some mistake happened in the train, the security system or the driver...


Your source, please, zazo?

And no, I wouldn´t like to be in the mind of the Alvia driver. In the slightest. :sly:


----------



## 437.001

Vaud said:


> I'm watching TVE International, which is live covering the sad event, and if I understand it well the experts have already dismissed the hypothesis of an explosion


Correct, the sources who told about an explosion were probably neighbours, obviously unfamiliar with such accidents.
Such an impact sounds like an explosion.

I witnessed the Torredembarra rail crash (an S-101 Euromed crashed against an S-448 regional right opposite what was then my home), and at first we thought it was an ETA bomb attack, it sounds like an explosion, I assure you. It´s very frightening.


----------



## Vaud

437.001 said:


> And no, I wouldn´t like to be in the mind of the Alvia driver. In the slightest. :sly:


Is he alive? I would be surprised if it really did derail at 180 km/h


----------



## zazo1

437.001 said:


> Your source, please, zazo?
> 
> And no, I wouldn´t like to be in the mind of the Alvia driver. In the slightest.


He has just told _(as you can see in the link) _that the train was going at 250 km/h in the last bend before the accident.


----------



## gramercy

Vaud said:


> Is he alive? I would be surprised if it really did derail at 180 km/h


you think it would have stayed on the 80kph tracks at 180kph?


----------



## AlexNL

gramercy said:


> you think it would have stayed on the 80kph tracks at 180kph?


As long as the tracks are straight, probably yes. It goes wrong when taking curves...


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

zazo said:


> In Spain it depends on the line_
> The AVE and AVANT services of the south with a delay of just *5 min** you get the 100% of the amount!!*
> The other AVE and AVANT services with a delay of 15 min you get the 50% and the 100% with a 30 min delay.
> 
> But the train we are talking about is NOT an AVE, not even an AVANT, it's an ALVIA, so if the delay is more that 20 min, you get the 25%, 50% if more than 40 min and the 100% after one hour.
> I don't find the the delay a cause of running faster.
> And about the modification of the salary because of the tardiness... it's ilegal...


Is It serious? I don't believe... This is a absurd.


----------



## AlexNL

zazo said:


> New info: the ASFA system is a manual system, it doesn't control the speed, and this is one of the few parts of the railsystem which host this one, I guess because we are talking about an urban area, a old route with new tracks and a line which actually is HS in just some places.. this was not that place.



This is so unfortunate... if there had been ETCS all the way to Santiago de Compostela station (dual signalled with ASFA for compatability) the entire crash wouldn't have happened.


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

Talgo Serie 730 has a dual-gauge system (1435/1668 mm) and the train involved in this tragedy is a 730... Did the accident may have been caused, among other reasons, for problems on the axes?


----------



## zazo1

AlexNL said:


> This is so unfortunate... if there had been ETCS all the way to Santiago de Compostela station (dual signalled with ASFA for compatability) the entire crash wouldn't have happened.


Sure :/, This may happen when a line in works is high speed in just some sections and hosts a different signalling system in the urban areas. If we mix this with a human mistake and high speed where it shouldn't...
The accident happens in the union of the High speed line with the traditional urban one, for you to know: the trains are prepared to run up to 250 km/h _(220 km/h real)_ with electrical motors, diesel motors, international gauge and iberian one, a fantastic train in a fantastic line, the problem: ASFA and the driver :s 

Actually the ERTMS was planned to be installed in all the line when the HSL finished in 2018 or 2020, but...
_(ERTMS would have stopped the train)_


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> This is so unfortunate... if there had been ETCS all the way to Santiago de Compostela station (dual signalled with ASFA for compatability) the entire crash wouldn't have happened.


Yes, it´s a bit like the Brétigny accident, two weird ones, rather unlikely, but definitely tragic.


----------



## zazo1

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> Is It serious? I don't believe... This is a absurd.


What is absurd? The punctuality use to be awsome.


----------



## zazo1




----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

zazo said:


> What is absurd? The punctuality use to be awsome.


Here in Brazil, we don't have this kind of punishment because risks of accidents, strikes and stress of operators. 

To be honest, I didn't know about this "puntcuality punishment".


----------



## zazo1

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> Here in Brazil, we don't have this kind of punishment because risks of accidents, strikes and stress of operators.
> 
> To be honest, I didn't know about this "puntcuality punishment".


You have not understood at all the post, I mean that a passenger that arrives 5 min late in Seville_ (in an AVE or AVANT train)_ will get the 100% of the price of the ticket: A FREE TRAVEL. The driver has the same salary anyway. _(no punishment..)_
But this one was not an AVE neither an AVANT, so the tardiness was not a reason _(losses for Renfe)_


----------



## Sunfuns

So sorry to hear about this and so soon after only a bit less tragic accident in France... hno:

Hope they found out how the train managed to travel more than twice faster than allowed on that section and make appropriate corrections for the future. Of course it's too late now for so many people...


----------



## Rodalvesdepaula

zazo said:


> You have not understood at all the post, I mean that a passenger that arrives 5 min late in Seville_ (in an AVE or AVANT train)_ will get the 100% of the price of the ticket: A FREE TRAVEL. The driver has the same salary anyway.
> But this one was not an AVE neither an AVANT, so the tardiness was not a reason _(losses for Renfe)_


Ahhhh, I understood!  

We don't have this in Brazil, too. 

Thanks, friend from Germany.


----------



## 437.001

Rodalvesdepaula said:


> Talgo Serie 730 has a dual-gauge system (1435/1668 mm) and the train involved in this tragedy is a 730... Did the accident may have been caused, among other reasons, for problems on the axes?


I don´t think so.


----------



## Fitzrovian

zazo said:


> ERTMS level 1
> 
> The accident happened in the union of the new HSL route and the historic route. Actually on the historic route. _(new tracks in both)_
> Now it's thought there has been an human mistake, the speed limit is 80 km/h, probably the train was going at 180 km/h


That is what's being reported on English language media outlets. I am struggling to understand how that's possible. What a terrible tragedy.


----------



## zazo1

New info: probably the train was going at 220 kph!!! Before the crash in a bend limited to 80 kph of the old urban railway section when the manual security system started. 220 kph !!! (waiting for official confirmation)
Now: more than 60 dead people from all over the world, today it's the main party of this international city, Galicia, and one of the main celebrations of Spain.

I hope the HSL to be finished soon and get the new security system in all the line, and of course to see the famous AVEs in that line, 2018 is too far away...


----------



## 437.001

zazo said:


> New info: *probably the train was going at 220 kph!!!* Before the crash in a bend limited to 80 kph of the old urban railway section when the manual security system started. 220 kph !!! (waiting for official confirmation)
> Now: *more than 60 dead people from all over the world*, today it's the main party of this international city, Galicia, and one of the main celebrations of Spain.


Your sources?



> I hope the HSL to be finished soon and get the new security system in all the line, and of course to see the famous AVEs in that line, 2018 is too far away...


Honest, zazo, who cares about this right now?
Now it´s not the train nor the HSL, it´s the injured and the dead... :dunno:


----------



## Silly_Walks

437.001 said:


> Your sources?


"El tren circulaba a 220 km/h en un tramo limitado a 80 km/h"
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/24/espana/1374698278.html


"The Government delegate in Galicia, Samuel Juarez, reported that at the time of the accident the train was going at 220 km / h, although the maximum speed at that point is 80 km / h because at that point slows down to enter Santiago station.

However, the source of Renfe have ensured that the train was traveling at 180 km / h , which would also be well above the recommended speed in the area. "


----------



## Woonsocket54

^^ It was actually Sam Juarez, not Sam Johnson.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Woonsocket54 said:


> ^^ It was actually Sam Juarez, not Sam Johnson.


That's a Google Translate issue, sorry.


----------



## 437.001

Silly_Walks said:


> "El tren circulaba a 220 km/h en un tramo limitado a 80 km/h"
> http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/24/espana/1374698278.html
> 
> 
> "The Government delegate in Galicia, Samuel Juarez, reported that at the time of the accident the train was going at 220 km / h, although the maximum speed at that point is 80 km / h because at that point slows down to enter Santiago station.
> 
> However, the source of Renfe have ensured that the train was traveling at 180 km / h , which would also be well above the recommended speed in the area. "


The black box (or whatever the name of the device used for trains it is) will tell. Now it´s too soon.

For now, we can only wait for the enquiry to go on.
And of course to heal the injured and identify the dead (some will need DNA tests, such was the violence of the crash).

Though I admit that the excessive speed theory is likely.
And I reckon that the train drivers will have to explain themselves very clearly in court (as well as Adif and Renfe bosses, of course). :sly:


----------



## 압둘라-爱- LOVE

that bad news


----------



## 압둘라-爱- LOVE

RIP ~


----------



## eu01

AlexNL said:


> Two drivers? Are you sure?


No. In many countries there were 2 drivers, but it's being reduced as a rule.


----------



## AlexNL

In my country (the Netherlands), usually I see only 1 driver. The same goes for Belgium, Germany and the UK. However, if ABC.es is right there were indeed two drivers on board of this Alvia...


----------



## Alargule

As the driver of the train was calling out in panic just after the rail crash: ¡Somos humanos, somos humanos! (which translates to: we're (only) human). Everywhere where humans are involved, mistakes are bound to be made. Usually, they won't end in disaster like this one, but once in a while we run out of luck and get killed by human error.
And as usual, a fatal error like this one was preceded by various non-fatal errors in the past. I can understand the reasoning behind hooking up a new high speed line to an existing line with a tight curve radius. What I don't understand is why that specific curve wasn't equipped with ETCS rightaway. This driver error and accident would probably have been prevented with ETCS installed.


----------



## AlexNL

Alargule said:


> What I don't understand is why that specific curve wasn't equipped with ETCS rightaway.


All I can think of is that applying dual-signalling on that section of track was deemed too complex (and thus costly).


----------



## SAS 16

gotaro said:


> Aquí estan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me he quedado de piedra.


....


----------



## Fatfield

The following link is from a security camera at the crash site. It shows the point when the train leaves the rails but is cut short when the drivers cabin/engine hits the camera's stand.

RIP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkQ71CI5s9w


----------



## Alargule

Vid seems to be taken offline...


----------



## OriK

AFAIK there were two drivers because there is a change in the sense of the train in that route


----------



## Vaud

Fatfield said:


> The following link is from a security camera at the crash site. It shows the point when the train leaves the rails but is cut short when the drivers cabin/engine hits the camera's stand.
> 
> RIP.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkQ71CI5s9w


It clearly seems to be a consequence of the high speed from the train. It shows the carriage just behind the loco, which if I'm not wrong hosts the added diesel-powered engine, levitating and consequently derailing the whole set.


----------



## zazo1

AlexNL said:


> In my country (the Netherlands), usually I see only 1 driver. The same goes for Belgium, Germany and the UK. However, if ABC.es is right there were indeed two drivers on board of this Alvia...


It's a 8 hours train, so it's normal to have two drivers.
The video of the accident, entering the bend at 190 kph (official)


----------



## albiman

It's seen even on this video the train was running too fast. :bash:
So the driver(s) survived?

R.I.P.


----------



## davroca5

Terrible and strange accident. This trains have the newest technology and security.


----------



## temlin

davroca5 said:


> Terrible and strange accident. This trains have the newest technology and security.


Not that curve, ERTMS ends just before it.


----------



## keber

^^ Which apparently should not.


----------



## 437.001

Alargule said:


> As the driver of the train was calling out in panic just after the rail crash: ¡Somos humanos, somos humanos! (which translates to: we're (only) human). Everywhere where humans are involved, mistakes are bound to be made. Usually, they won't end in disaster like this one, but once in a while we run out of luck and get killed by human error.
> And as usual, a fatal error like this one was preceded by various non-fatal errors in the past. I can understand the reasoning behind hooking up a new high speed line to an existing line with a tight curve radius. What I don't understand is why that specific curve wasn't equipped with ETCS rightaway. This driver error and accident would probably have been prevented with ETCS installed.


I don´t know how accurate is what I´m going to say, but some Spanish forumer said that it was to be equipped with the ERTMS/ETCS-1 soon, as it wasn´t because very close from there is the junction between the Coruña and Vigo branches of the HSL, and the Vigo branch is still in works.

Very close from the site of the accident there´s the start of the by-pass that will allow high-speed trains to run to Vigo without calling at Santiago. Maybe this is the reason why ERTMS-ETCS-1 wasn´t still installed in that sector.


----------



## 437.001

zazo said:


> It's a 8 hours train, so it's normal to have two drivers.
> The video of the accident, entering the bend at 190 kph (official)


:cripes: mg:

It was running much too fast!!!

The drivers will have to explain. :evil:


----------



## 437.001

albiman said:


> So the driver(s) survived?


Yes.


----------



## 437.001

80 dead now? Can anyone confirm?


----------



## 437.001

Official: the driver will have to declare in Court.


----------



## Maadeuurija

zazo said:


> It's a 8 hours train, so it's normal to have two drivers.
> The video of the accident, entering the bend at 190 kph (official)


is it me, or does it seem that the rear power unit pushed the cars of the track, witch seemed to stay intact for the first seconds...


----------



## Maarten Otto

The question is WHY is it allowed to pass the last ERTMS balise at those high speeds? A normal person can imagine tht the last signal on a HSL should protect the speed of a train leaving the HSL. In this case the end of the Movement Authority should allow for speeds not greater then 80 or 100 km/h. Even if trains arriving at 350 km/h pass this balise at high speeds the distance till the end of the line would be sufficient to get the train to stop before this bend. 

In Rotterdam the end of the HSL has a 80 km/h bent into the station. ERTMS is forcing the trains to pass at a speed not greater then 60 km/h.


----------



## keber

Maadeuurija said:


> is it me, or does it seem that the rear power unit pushed the cars of the track, witch seemed to stay intact for the first seconds...


To me it appears that first power unit alone could even negotiate the turn (which has radius of about 400 m, at Vmax=80 km/h means cant of about 120 mm) however passenger cars are much lighter so they were pushed into the air because of sudden cant increase in the first transition curve. Then they pulled powercars off the track too.


----------



## Ribarca

Maarten Otto said:


> The question is WHY is it allowed to pass the last ERTMS balise at those high speeds? A normal person can imagine tht the last signal on a HSL should protect the speed of a train leaving the HSL. In this case the end of the Movement Authority should allow for speeds not greater then 80 or 100 km/h. Even if trains arriving at 350 km/h pass this balise at high speeds the distance till the end of the line would be sufficient to get the train to stop before this bend.
> 
> In Rotterdam the end of the HSL has a 80 km/h bent into the station. ERTMS is forcing the trains to pass at a speed not greater then 60 km/h.


You would assume it should have worked the same here.

With a risk analysis this part on the whole track would have stood out like a sore thumb. Therefore it's so incredible to me that it happened right here. The precautions and the focus of the driver should be at its maximum right here you would assume. Accidents normally happen where you don't expect them.


----------



## Sunfuns

I still find it unbelievable driver error being the only cause of this tragedy. Hopefully the investigation gets to the root of this.


----------



## 압둘라-爱- LOVE

*At least 78 dead in worst Spanish train crash in decades*
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...in-worse-Spanish-train-crash-in-decades-.html



RIP


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> I still find it unbelievable driver error being the only cause of this tragedy. Hopefully the investigation gets to the root of this.


That route is set up so that a driver that don't pay attention ALL the time can miss the end of the HSR section of the line. I posted a youtube video of this line a few pages back, you basically come out of a tunnel over a bridge and then suddenly you find yourself in a curve, it is easy to miss if you are distracted by something. It is a design flaw when the driver has next to no time to react before he has to brake.

From min 30 in this video, the derail section is at min 31:40






Then of cause it could be software/hardware error, but I doubt it.


----------



## gramercy

keber said:


> To me it appears that first power unit alone could even negotiate the turn (which has radius of about 400 m, at Vmax=80 km/h means cant of about 120 mm) however passenger cars are much lighter so they were pushed into the air because of sudden cant increase in the first transition curve. Then they pulled powercars off the track too.


I noticed that too.

The power car alone is probably heavy enough to stay on the rails. Incredible.

But because this sharp left is followed by a sharp right instead of a straight, there is an inflection point and my guess is the power car would have derailed right there.

The passenger coaches flew into the air like paper.


----------



## Axelferis

Shocking accident 

I can't believe this video!!
Few weeks agor we were talking on eurostar thread about the security on TGV!
It's just incredible to see that!

I can't believe my eyes


----------



## tompaw

I think the reason for the extra damage of the passenger cars might be releated to the fact, that those trains are hybrid. In the wagon right next to the engine there's a huge and heavy diesel unit. Now, I'm not sure if those trains have 2 diesels or only one, but if the rear engine was diesel-equipped, then it acted as a hammer crushing all the passenger cars on its way.

You can see the diesel which broke itself loose from the engine here - 4th picture from the bottom. Just imagine the momentum of this thing with a velocity of 200 km/h.


----------



## earthJoker

It doesn't matter how heavy or light a vehicle is, centrifugal force and gravitation both scale the same way with the mass.

What matters is the weight distribution. And it seems that the middle cars had a higher (further away from the tracks) center of mass then the powercars.


----------



## tompaw

I am not saying that the presence of diesel units had anything to do with the derailment. But I think it might've had lots to do with the damage to the passenger cars.


----------



## 압둘라-爱- LOVE

here s some ppl they confuse between alvia train (talgo 250) and talgo 350 train 

Haramin high speed train 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=710292&page=54


----------



## Peloso

Alargule said:


> As the driver of the train was calling out in panic just after the rail crash: ¡Somos humanos, somos humanos! (which translates to: we're (only) human). Everywhere where humans are involved, mistakes are bound to be made. Usually, they won't end in disaster like this one, but once in a while we run out of luck and get killed by human error.


Excuse me, but NO. Mistakes are ok, but we're not talking some 10 or even 40 km/h here, we're talking overspeeding by about 100 km/h, which is criminal if you ask me... if the driver did not know where he was and what the speed limit was, then he should have slowed down immediately.


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## TimeOff

Video: the normal speed at which the train should take that section...

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/07/25/videos/1374763656_833539.html


The driver posted at his facebook time ago:

"Im so proud I achieved 200km/h"


----------



## TimeOff

Peloso said:


> Excuse me, but NO. Mistakes are ok, but we're not talking some 10 or even 40 km/h here, we're talking overspeeding by about 100 km/h, which is criminal if you ask me... if the driver did not know where he was and what the speed limit was, then he should have slowed down immediately.


I agree, it was not a mistake, this guy is mentally ill.. simply as that! we need to know his profile, his age, etc... 

How in the ... you take such a curv at 190km/h??? no matter if the systems failed too.


----------



## TimeOff

look at this, is in spanish... the driver so proud of being a jerk driving at overspeed!!!!

hno:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/25/espana/1374751101.html

*Francisco Jose Garzon Amo* is the criminal!


----------



## TimeOff

*Spain Train Crash: Driver Francisco José Garzón Amo under Investigation*


----------



## OriK

^^ that doesn't mean anything... 200Km/h is allowed in a lot of stretches...


----------



## TimeOff

OriK said:


> ^^ that doesn't mean anything... 200Km/h is allowed in a lot of stretches...


it means this guy is an adict to velocity and break the law.


----------



## earthJoker

tompaw said:


> I am not saying that the presence of diesel units had anything to do with the derailment. But I think it might've had lots to do with the damage to the passenger cars.


Sorry for the convusion, I wasn't refering to you. There were several post assuming that the "lightness" of some cars have something to do with the delailment. But that isn't true.


----------



## Avientu

^^ Let's not jump to easy conclusiones when there's not clear what happened. A picture on facebook doesn't proof anything in the real world. That speed is allowed in a lot of stretches, we don't know if he was breaking the law..


----------



## GENIUS LOCI

TimeOff said:


> look at this, is in spanish... the driver so proud of being a jerk driving at overspeed!!!!
> 
> hno:
> 
> http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/25/espana/1374751101.html
> 
> *Francisco Jose Garzon Amo* is the criminal!


Nowadays the first thing journalists do everytime someone breaks into newspapers headlines is to lurk at his FB profile to get infos on 'em

That way silly conversations and attitudes which are normally publishe on people's wall are emphasized and become extremely serious in journalists eyes.. because, oh well, they're looking for people who read their 'scoops'

But, definitely, it is like lurking at SSC and judge people on the basis of the bs they write on the forum 

This post could possibly be considered as an address against the freedom of press if someone looking for 'news' about Genius Loci on the forum will read it.
Instead is about lack of analysis and research of 'instant journalism'


----------



## OriK

TimeOff said:


> it means this guy is an adict to velocity and break the law.


He is joking at being caught by a speed cam just like I was joking with a friend that measured the speed of a plane with a GPS, and of course flying at 900km/h is not necessary against the law just like driving a train at 200km/h.

The driver could be responsible, but his facebook doesn't prove neither that he is crazy nor that he is an adict to velocity, in fact he says:

"If I go faster I'd get fined".

So it seems pretty clear that he knows that there are limits.


----------



## AlexNL

The media are trying to find someone to blame, and given the circumstances it looks like the driver has become the target. To me, it appears like he's someone who enjoys his job and likes to share, nothing more. 

A while ago, when the Fyra scandal unfolded, the Dutch media published some tweets of a man who was responsible to oversee the building of the Fyra V250 trains in Italy. He tweeted some pictures of his view and of a glass of Italian wine, the media made it into "He was there, having a good time, not doing his job", some even went as far to insinuate that AnsaldoBreda bribed him.

I wouldn't put too much confidence in everything the media publishes about the driver, the situation is bad enough as it is and I am sure the driver hasn't slept well over it.


----------



## 압둘라-爱- LOVE

TimeOff said:


> look at this, is in spanish... the driver so proud of being a jerk driving at overspeed!!!!
> 
> hno:
> 
> http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/25/espana/1374751101.html
> 
> *Francisco Jose Garzon Amo* is the criminal!


:scouserd:icard: no comment hno:


----------



## Peloso

AlexNL said:


> The media are trying to find someone to blame, and given the circumstances it looks like the driver has become the target. To me, it appears like he's someone who enjoys his job and likes to share, nothing more.
> [...]
> I wouldn't put too much confidence in everything the media publishes about the driver, the situation is bad enough as it is and I am sure the driver hasn't slept well over it.


You guys are crazy. Based on what we know at the moment (if it's confirmed, of course) I don't see how the driver could not be at least AMONG the people at fault. Hard to imagine what could have brought him to overspeed by 100 km/h. Loss of situational awareness? Again, in such a case he was due to slow down anyway. This automatically puts the driver's quality of sleep out of the current priorities' list. hno:
And, media sensationalism has nothing to do with this.


----------



## Fan Railer

Speeding is speeding. In that situation, I don't see how you can not level the majority of the blame on the person in control of the train.


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## TimeOff

the driver is guilty and is pretty evident and no matter what the Unions says to defend him or the fans..

Im a big fan of high speed trains, but in order to defend the industry we must to admit that it was a human error and there are responsibles and is obvious who is...

neglecting it, only damages more the image of the industry to the public opinon.


----------



## Silly_Walks

TimeOff said:


> it means this guy is an adict to velocity and break the law.


A high speed train driver driving at high speed is an 'adict' to velocity and 'break the law'?


Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6

Get this troll out of here.


----------



## Fan Railer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23448002
Until someone refutes the alleged quote from the guy himself, I don't see any other culprit in the accident.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Did the driver go too fast through the bend: YES.


Is the driver to blame for installing a 200 km/h stretch of rail, and ending that right before a 80 km/h stretch of bendy tracks that have no speed regulation? NO


It is a ridiculous oversight to have installed it this way, and it should have had banners, flashing lights, fireworks, etc. to warn drivers of the necessary speed decrease to undertake, since apparently they didn't think about having the ERTMS stretch end at about 100 km/h.


----------



## Silly_Walks

Fan Railer said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23448002
> Until someone refutes the alleged quote from the guy himself, I don't see any other culprit in the accident.


High speed rail, especially in corners, should not give anyone the opportunity to speed. The system in place here allowed him to go 110 kilometers per hour FASTER than the speed allowed... that's a failure of proper HSR implementation.
Heads should role for this amount of negligence, and this train driver should be fired, but to put all the blame on him is ridiculous. It's like telling your kid it's ok to cycle on the edge of a cliff, and then only blaming your kid for being a bad cyclist when he falls in the cliff, and not yourself for letting him cycle there in the first place.


----------



## Attus

Probably a human error of the driver, yes (unless he had had a faint). But if the railways system is not able to stop the train, or at least slow it down, then the system is absolutely wrong! There have always been human errors, and there will always be. You can not let a train going twice as fast as the speed limit, even not if the driver is losing his consciousness or forgets to break the train! 
Who of us did never make a mistake? Is there any one here that has never in his life accidentally avoid a traffic sign? If you do it driving your car, you may kill 3-4 people, if you have bad luck. A train driver can kill one hundred people (and actually killed at least 78). It is never, never acceptable that something like this could happen just because the driver had an oversight!


----------



## Suburbanist

I think it is better to wait a little bit to get some information about what happened. I'm not saying the driver is off the hook nor do I know anything more than reported, but there are many things that could have happened and I'd rather not jump to conclusion so early in the process. 

As it usually happens in accidents involving segregated rail, or airplane, or other automated systems, there are many safeguards to prevent accidents, and often it takes not just once, but several violations/failures/concatenated issues to produce such a major accident. So I'll wait until more information comes out.

===========================

A side note: the commission that is leading the tender process for the 528km-long Brazilian High Speed Line (called TAV-Brasil) announced that Renfe (which entered the tender in a partnership with Adif and Ineco) is going to be excluded from the possibility of bidding for the project, which requires a 10-year long record of no train passenger fatalities on high-speed services for the operator, reason for which the Chinese had also been excluded.

===========================

Since the tragedy happened, I hope it produces at least a push for widespread implementation of ERTMS, especially in countries where the national systems are inherently dangerous by design (beyond Spain, the SCMT comes to mind as well).

The conventional Spanish rail network is not that big or dense. So they should think of large-scale adoption of ERTMS. Italy should do the same.


----------



## Fan Railer

Silly_Walks said:


> Is the driver to blame for installing a 200 km/h stretch of rail, and ending that right before a 80 km/h stretch of bendy tracks that have no speed regulation? NO


I am inclined to disagree. If you're assigned to operate a certain route, you should be WELL TRAINED to know all the intricacies on the route, particularly visual signalling and speed limits. The fact that this 80 km/h limit comes RIGHT after a stretch of 200 km/h track bears NO significant blame on the accident. As the person in control of the train, you should know that even though your current limit is 200, a section of track with a lower limit is approaching, and as such, you should act accordingly to assure the train is within that new limit before entering that section of track. 

What you're saying is akin to an engineer on New Jersey Transit travelling at say, 70 mph, and then blowing past a station he should have stopped at because, "Oh oops. I forgot there was a station here."

Whether this is driver negligence or ignorance doesn't matter. Don't blame this incident on the lack of "proper signalling."


----------



## Never give up

Silly_Walks said:


> Did the driver go too fast through the bend: YES.
> 
> 
> Is the driver to blame for installing a 200 km/h stretch of rail, and ending that right before a 80 km/h stretch of bendy tracks that have no speed regulation? NO
> 
> 
> It is a ridiculous oversight to have installed it this way, and it should have had banners, flashing lights, fireworks, etc. to warn drivers of the necessary speed decrease to undertake, since apparently they didn't think about having the ERTMS stretch end at about 100 km/h.


This is one of the best comments about the whole unhappy affair of the accident in Spain.
Of course a driver can not be expected to rely on visual signs at speeds of 200 km/h.
This part of the track has a built in design fault and therefore the main responsibility should be placed with the track authorities. 
Murphy's Law applies in all countries.


----------



## Suburbanist

Fan Railer said:


> I am inclined to disagree. If you're assigned to operate a certain route, you should be WELL TRAINED to know all the intricacies on the route, particularly visual signalling and speed limits. The fact that this 80 km/h limit comes RIGHT after a stretch of 200 km/h track bears NO significant blame on the accident. As the person in control of the train, you should know that even though your current limit is 200, a section of track with a lower limit is approaching, and as such, you should act accordingly to assure the train is within that new limit before entering that section of track.
> 
> What you're saying is akin to an engineer on New Jersey Transit travelling at say, 70 mph, and then blowing past a station he should have stopped at because, "Oh oops. I forgot there was a station here."
> 
> Whether this is driver negligence or ignorance doesn't matter. Don't blame this incident on the lack of "proper signalling."


You are ignoring the principles of systems safety developed over last 40 years, such as double fail-safe redundancy, forgiving-design for human operation etc.

Speed being the second most critical element of rail dynamic safety (after only unauthorized movement on occupied track), any half-decent system of rail safety shall provide some redundancy for the possibility the standard procedure doesn't work.


----------



## Fan Railer

Never give up said:


> This is one of the best comments about the whole unhappy affair of the accident in Spain.
> Of course a driver can not be expected to rely on visual signs at speeds of 200 km/h.
> This part of the track has a built in design fault and therefore the main responsibility should be placed with the track authorities.
> Murphy's Law applies in all countries.


When people stop relying on their own memories of route features (landscape, overpasses, tunnels, crossovers, etc) to let them know where they are and when they should begin applying brakes, and begin to rely on track signalling / cab signalling to tell them these things, you begin to enter into an area where it is now permissible to shift blame off the train engineer and to people installing signalling equipment. You know, there was once a time when you actually needed skill to operate a train.


----------



## eu01

Silly_Walks said:


> this train driver should be fired


Fired? If proven guilty, he'll spend many years in prison and his life is destroyed anyway (with all this conscience nightmare among else).

The legal responsibility of safety system planners and/or providers is a separate issue.


----------



## AlexNL

According to Renfe, the train was checked yesterday morning and no faults were found. Technical faults can develop en-route, but that is highly unusual (that's why high speed trains are inspected regularely) and such mission critical systems have safeguards in place to prevent disasters like these from happening.


----------



## Peloso

OriK said:


> People are ignoring that the driver called to the control, very nervous and before the derailment because the speed of the train was 190km/h.


Source?


----------



## 437.001

The driver has been arrested. He´s still in the hospital.
Source: La Vanguardia newspaper.


----------



## OriK

Peloso said:


> Source?


Every single newspaper. for example, in El Pais it's in the frontpage:

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/07/25/actualidad/1374713876_139202.html



> Uno de los maquinistas del tren Alvia que descarriló ayer en Santiago de Compostela quedó atrapado tras el accidente en la cabina del convoy. A través de la radio con la que se comunica con la estación, cuando aún no sabía siquiera si había fallecidos, hizo un relato de lo que acababa de suceder. Expresó que le dolía la espalda y las costillas y que no podía salir. “¡Somos humanos! ¡Somos humanos!”, repetía. “Espero que no haya muertos porque caerán sobre mi conciencia”. *El conductor había dicho previamente, antes del siniestro, que iba muy rápido, a 190 kilómetros por hora; después habló de 200. Finalmente, al entrar en la curva, volvió a decir: "¡Voy a 190!", según explicaron ayer a EL PAÍS fuentes de la investigación.*


Translation: The driver had previously said, before the accident, that it was too fast, at 190 km/h; after he said 200. Finally, while entering the curve, he said again: "I'm at 190!" as El País were told yesterday by sources of the investigation.


----------



## TimeOff

437.001 said:


> *The driver has been arrested*. He´s still in the hospital.
> Source: La Vanguardia newspaper.


:applause:


----------



## xinxingren

Suburbanist said:


> A side note: the commission that is leading the tender process for the 528km-long Brazilian High Speed Line (called TAV-Brasil) announced that Renfe (which entered the tender in a partnership with Adif and Ineco) is going to be excluded from the possibility of bidding for the project, which requires a 10-year long record of no train passenger fatalities on high-speed services for the operator, reason for which the Chinese had also been excluded.


Hmmm, I'd be inclined to include them on a separate subcommittee. Their experience, and the post-accident investigations should add valuable design and operation information. Unfortunately emotion and politics often over-ride engineering.


----------



## keber

earthJoker said:


> Sorry for the convusion, I wasn't refering to you. There were several post assuming that the "lightness" of some cars have something to do with the delailment. But that isn't true.


Sorry I was looking at video of the crash, but because of low reolution I couldn't discern passenger car from diesel unit. Later I saw my mistake. 

I hope that this accident will also accelerate unifying signaling systems across Europe as any breaks in signaling system can be very problematic.


----------



## Peloso

OriK said:


> Every single newspaper. for example, in El Pais it's in the frontpage:
> 
> http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2013/07/25/actualidad/1374713876_139202.html


Weird. If it is true, and not some journalist's mishap, what could possibly have prevented the driver from slowing down? A general breakdown of all braking systems? And how does this fit in with same driver's words "If there are victims, they'll weigh on my conscience"? Could he possibly have disabled the brakes or the speed control devices by mistake? Why after the disaster he did not mention any system fault anyway?


----------



## ForABetter

That's so sad...there is nothing else to us but pray for their souls.. .


----------



## Fitzrovian

Silly_Walks said:


> High speed rail, especially in corners, should not give anyone the opportunity to speed. The system in place here allowed him to go 110 kilometers per hour FASTER than the speed allowed... that's a failure of proper HSR implementation.
> Heads should role for this amount of negligence, and this train driver should be fired, but to put all the blame on him is ridiculous. It's like telling your kid it's ok to cycle on the edge of a cliff, and then only blaming your kid for being a bad cyclist when he falls in the cliff, and not yourself for letting him cycle there in the first place.


Agree 100%. This was clearly a systemic failure on a monumental scale that goes way beyond any possible negligence of the driver.


----------



## sacto7654

Isn't the speed limit for that very curve around 80 km/h (50 mph)? At the time the train derailed, it was travelling at 190 km/h (118 mph)--way over the speed limit. There's going to be a lot of questions asked on why the train ended up this fast....


----------



## Fitzrovian

Ribarca said:


> You would assume it should have worked the same here.
> 
> With a risk analysis this part on the whole track would have stood out like a sore thumb. Therefore it's so incredible to me that it happened right here. The precautions and the focus of the driver should be at its maximum right here you would assume. Accidents normally happen where you don't expect them.


It astounds me that something like this could have happened in a country that is the European leader in high speed rail with a heretofore unblemished safety record in HSR. Shocking. I dont know anything about HSR technology but it is very hard to believe that the system was designed to entrust the driver, without any back-up, with the task of decreasing the speed at this extremely delicate juncture.


----------



## Sunfuns

Fitzrovian said:


> It astounds me that something like this could have happened in a country that is the European leader in high speed rail with a *heretofore unblemished safety record in HSR. * Shocking. I dont know anything about HSR technology but it is very hard to believe that the system was designed to entrust the driver, without any back-up, with the task of decreasing the speed at this extremely delicate juncture.


It just shows you that there is no such thing as 100% safe system of anything. Rail accidents of any kind are extremely rare, but they do happen and probably will continue to happen...


----------



## zazo1

Fitzrovian said:


> It astounds me that something like this could have happened in a country that is the European leader in high speed rail with a heretofore unblemished safety record in HSR. Shocking. I dont know anything about HSR technology but it is very hard to believe that the system was designed to entrust the driver, without any back-up, with the task of decreasing the speed at this extremely delicate juncture.


As you can read on the info, this is not actually a full HSL, (which will be finished in 2018 or 2020), the full HSL are Madrid-South, Madrid-France, Madrid-East, Madrid-Valladolid, not a full HSL on the north. 
The accident actually happened on a conventional line not prepared for speeds higher than 80 kph without the security system of HSL (because it is not) and inside a city. The train works in some sections as a medium-high-speed train (220kph real) and in other sections as a conventional one with speeds of 120 kph in a travel of 9 hours. The finished HSL where AVE runs are rather different.


----------



## Fitzrovian

zazo said:


> As you can read on the info, this is not actually a full HSL, (which will be finished in 2018 or 2020), the full HSL are Madrid-South, Madrid-France, Madrid-East, Madrid-Valladolid, not a full HSL on the north.
> The accident actually happened on a conventional line not prepared for speeds higher than 80 kph without the security system of HSL (because it is not) and inside a city. It's easy to understand.


I understand that!!! But don't you think the engineers who designed the HSR portion of the track should have thought about installing some technology to ensure that the train could never enter the conventional track above a certain speed threshold? It is beyond absurd to leave it entirely up to the driver, especially in such a sensitive spot, where the cost of human error is certain to have deadly consequences.

I am sure there is more to this story that we have yet to find out.


----------



## 437.001

"We" won´t solve this case until the enquiry ends.
And certainly, _WE_ won´t solve this case. Not you, nor you, nor you will. Nor me.

Until then, thank you for NOT trying to outsmart the enquirers nor applauding any decision taken by the judges, whatever it is.

The case is not closed yet.

SSC will only gain credibility if we don´t have Twitter-like nor Facebook-like posts.

*THIS IS NOT THE SKYBAR.* :colbert:


----------



## Fitzrovian

437.001 said:


> "We" won´t solve this case until the enquiry ends.
> And certainly, _WE_ won´t solve this case. Not you, nor you, nor you will. Nor me.
> 
> Until then, thank you for NOT trying to outsmart the enquirers nor applauding any decision taken by the judges, whatever it is.
> 
> The case is not closed yet.
> 
> SSC will only gain credibility if we don´t have Twitter-like nor Facebook-like posts.
> 
> *THIS IS NOT THE SKYBAR.* :colbert:



I agree. 

Does anyone known the distance between the end of the HSR track and the spot of the crash?


----------



## 압둘라-爱- LOVE




----------



## skyridgeline

Fitzrovian said:


> I understand that!!! But don't you think the engineers who designed the HSR portion of the track should have thought about installing some technology to ensure that the train could never enter the conventional track above a certain speed threshold? It is beyond absurd to* leave it entirely up to the driver*, especially in such a sensitive spot, where the cost of human error is certain to have deadly consequences.
> 
> I am sure there is more to this story that we have yet to find out.


That's what happened. It was a governmental decision to allow 'high speed' trains to run on 'low speed' tracks w/o the ERTMS-compliant signalling system.


----------



## M-NL

Can anybody explain all the functions of ASFA? From the wikipedia entry and a Youtube clip I can only make up that it protects against SPADs. For a system that was first implemented in the 70's lack of speed check facilities would seem strange to me. You can still have a massive accident when a 120 km/h train drives over a 40 km/h switch at 90 km/h.


----------



## G5man

Jacques Cooper said:


> Para que os aclareis:


So why was the ERTMS not programmed to have limits before entering the speed restricted curve?


----------



## Ribarca

eu01 said:


> Fired? If proven guilty, he'll spend many years in prison and his life is destroyed anyway (with all this conscience nightmare among else).
> 
> The legal responsibility of safety system planners and/or providers is a separate issue.


The driver has supposedly said on transmission that he wants to die. The prospect of living with that burden within or outside of the prison wall ishno:.

But until he has had a fair trial it is not fair to judge him yet. The system plays a huge role as well as others have said. The Japanese have a term for that Poka-Yoke where you make sure a system exists that things cannot go wrong. Having a system in place that is mistake proof.

El Pais say the driver was breaking very hard. I guess breaking hard would only inrease the risk of derailment in that sharp corner?

http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/25/galicia/1374784070_915709.html


----------



## keber

Fitzrovian said:


> I agree.
> 
> Does anyone known the distance between the end of the HSR track and the spot of the crash?


Signalling wise around 200 m according to posted videos of a track in normal conditions.
Still having ERMTS or not on particular part of the track this is no excuse for driver for not obeying speed limits. He/She must know track layout and speed limits before. Great majority of railway tracks on the world don't have any systems to slow down top the train if it goes over designed speed limit and there are no problems with that.


----------



## skyridgeline

keber said:


> Signalling wise around 200 m according to posted videos of a track in normal conditions.
> Still having ERMTS or not on particular part of the track this is no excuse for driver for not obeying speed limits. He/She must know track layout and speed limits before. *Great majority of railway tracks on the world don't have any systems to slow down top the train if it goes over designed speed limit *and there are no problems with that.


But this train was capable of going up to 250 km/h !


----------



## Vaud

skyridgeline said:


> But this train was capable of going up to 250 km/h !


So? All trains can overspeed by twice the speed limit in certain sections, but drivers are trained to... Yes, drive. As a passanger train driver you are trained on a particular stretch until you know by heart when do you need to accelerate and when do you need to stop.

We cannot yet say why did he overspeed, but given that no message was sent before to controllers informing about a major problems with breaks, we can guess he just didn't realize since he wasn't paying enough attention - a fatal mistake when you carry people. 

We should however wait for the investigators conclusions.

On the other hand, I don't think Renfe should be blamed - signalling and tracks belong to Adif, and not to the train operator.


----------



## keber

Doesn't matter. All high-speed trains nowadays can do 250+ km/h but they still can drive on railways with standard signalling which cannot affect speed of travelling train.

It is similar with airplanes: despite powerful computers and automatic systems landings and takeoffs which are the most dangerous part of flight are still done by a human.


----------



## skyridgeline

Vaud said:


> *So? All trains can overspeed by twice the speed limit in certain sections, but drivers are trained to... *Yes, drive. As a passanger train driver you are trained on a particular stretch until you know by heart when do you need to accelerate and when do you need to stop.
> 
> We cannot yet say why did he overspeed, but given that no message was sent before to controllers informing about a major problems with breaks, we can guess he just didn't realize since he wasn't paying enough attention - a fatal mistake when you carry people.
> 
> We should however wait for the investigators conclusions.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think Renfe should be blamed - signalling and tracks belong to Adif, and not to the train operator.


Did not turned out well ... did it? 



keber said:


> Doesn't matter. All high-speed trains nowadays can do 250+ km/h but *they still can drive* on railways with standard signalling which cannot affect speed of travelling train.
> 
> It is similar with airplanes: despite powerful computers and automatic systems landings and takeoffs which are the most dangerous part of flight are still done by a human.


Not this train.


----------



## Attus

Vaud said:


> we can guess he just didn't realize since he wasn't paying enough attention - a fatal mistake when you carry people.


Yes. But human beings are not perfect. Mistakes happen. Never was and never will be a man with no mistakes. 
Train drivers, too, are human beings.


----------



## Blunderbuss

M-NL said:


> Can anybody explain all the functions of ASFA? From the wikipedia entry and a Youtube clip I can only make up that it protects against SPADs. For a system that was first implemented in the 70's lack of speed check facilities would seem strange to me. You can still have a massive accident when a 120 km/h train drives over a 40 km/h switch at 90 km/h.


From what I've read it seems that ASFA works only as a "SPAD protector" - it will stop a train that passed a signal showing the red aspect. In this case, the 80 km/h speed limit on the curve was not shown on the signal. Speed limiting aspects are basically shown in a case when the speed limit is caused by track change, not by things like curve radius - at least that's how it works in the signalling systems I'm familiar with. But even if ASFA was able to stop a speeding train, it wouldn't do much good since the ASFA balise is about 100-200 meters from the curve, so the train going at 200 km/h would have little time to slow down.

Another thing bothers me though. This artilce on El-Pais webpage (in Spanish, unfortunately) states that:



> El sistema ERTMS, mas moderno porque controla la velocidad de tren durante todo el trayecto, no esta implementado en ese tramo ni en el tren alvia accidentado


Which - as I understand - means that the train wasn't equipped at all with the ERTMS devices. Is that even possible or is that a journalists' mistake?


----------



## skyridgeline

G5man said:


> So why was the *ERTMS* not programmed to have limits before entering the speed restricted curve?





Blunderbuss said:


> From what I've read it seems that ASFA works only as a "SPAD protector" - it will stop a train that passed a signal showing the red aspect. In this case, the 80 km/h speed limit on the curve was not shown on the signal. Speed limiting aspects are basically shown in a case when the speed limit is caused by track change, not by things like curve radius - at least that's how it works in the signalling systems I'm familiar with. But even if ASFA was able to stop a speeding train, it wouldn't do much good since the ASFA balise is about 100-200 meters from the curve, so the train going at 200 km/h would have little time to slow down.
> 
> Another thing bothers me though. This artilce on El-Pais webpage (in Spanish, unfortunately) states that:
> 
> 
> 
> Which - as I understand - *means that the train wasn't equipped at all with the ERTMS devices*. Is that even possible or is that a journalists' mistake?




"Though Spain was the first country to make use of the EU's European rail traffic management system (*ERTMS*), which automatically brakes trains exceeding designated speeds, *the system was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line*. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA."

- John Hooper guardian.co.uk, Thursday 25 July 2013 18.18 BST


----------



## AlexNL

The high speed sections of the line are supervised by ETCS, the rolling stock is equipped with it as well.


----------



## Bipo

The s730 apparently does not use ERTMS when traveling across that line... It uses ASFA during all the trip.


----------



## Blunderbuss

skyridgeline said:


> "Though Spain was the first country to make use of the EU's European rail traffic management system (*ERTMS*), which automatically brakes trains exceeding designated speeds, *the system was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line*. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA."
> 
> - John Hooper guardian.co.uk, Thursday 25 July 2013 18.18 BST





AlexNL said:


> The high speed sections of the line are supervised by ETCS, the rolling stock is equipped with it as well.





Bipo said:


> The s730 apparently does not use ERTMS when traveling across that line... It uses ASFA during all the trip.


It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?


----------



## skyridgeline

Blunderbuss said:


> It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?


$50 -$100 million US ?

See http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/rail/interoperability/ertms/doc/ertms_10_questions_en.pdf


----------



## 63784

Blunderbuss said:


> It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?


Read again:



Bipo said:


> *The s730* apparently does not use ERTMS when traveling across that line... It uses ASFA during all the trip.


It seems (that is not clear yet) that *the s730* does not use ERTMS in that line. It's not that the line doesn't have ERTMS installed (it has). Have a look at this video (the 360p resolution doesn't work, but others do) of the same track. You can clearly see the ERTMS beacons there:


----------



## K_

skyridgeline said:


> That's what happened. It was a governmental decision to allow 'high speed' trains to run on 'low speed' tracks w/o the ERTMS-compliant signalling system.


Something every government in Europe allows btw...


----------



## M-NL

Usually because their legacy control system also has a speed control feature (Some systems like (ASFA, TBL1, crocodile) don't)


----------



## zazo1

Blunderbuss said:


> It seems we have some disagreement on the topic. The question is: why wasn't the ERTMS/ETCS implemented on the newly build section of the HSL? Cost reduction?


Well, I guess because actually it is not a High speed line, but a 'rail line in high speed' sections where trains use to get 200 kph and sections in 80 or 120, ERTMS is designed for the HSL network, where trains travel at 350 kph, so, just in 3 lines, the HSL of the north will be inaugurated in 2018, and AVE trains along others will start using it at real high speed. (ERTMS is working on the high speed sections of the north)
This section of track is used by at least 900 trains every month.
The security of the 1000 long-way trains which travel every day through the country works well but the other day... Even in the whole Europe everything runs great for the millions of train travels which happen every day, but there's always something which happens once every 5 or 10 years in conventional speed or high speed in any country. I hope this 'posibilities' will finish in some years.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/graficos/jul/s3/sistemas_de_senalizacion.html


----------



## acela

Is this the same train the Spanish will be providing to the Saudis?


----------



## zazo1

acela said:


> Is this the same train the Spanish will be providing to the Saudis?


No, it is not. But?
The train is a wonderful thing of the engineering, there has been no problem with the most hybrid train on earth, neither with the tracks... It seems to be obvious. _(Please, read the coments)_


----------



## Suburbanist

Fitzrovian said:


> I understand that!!! But don't you think the engineers who designed the HSR portion of the track should have thought about installing some technology to ensure that the train could never enter the conventional track above a certain speed threshold? It is beyond absurd to leave it entirely up to the driver, especially in such a sensitive spot, where the cost of human error is certain to have deadly consequences.


Let me put the other way around: Spain has many trainsets that are coventional non-highs speed trains that could easily reach speeds on the 160-180km/h under their current configuration. Meaning a non-HSR train could have crashed on a similar curve.


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> Usually because their legacy control system also has a speed control feature (Some systems like (ASFA, TBL1, crocodile) don't)


There are quite a few examples of high speed trains travelling on conventional networks where only a legacy train protection system (that often does indeed not enforce speed limits) is in use. In fact in most countries that is quite a regular occurence. When you leave Köln by ICE you even pass some mechanical signals still! 
The only country where this does not happen on a regular basis is probably Spain, because there the HSL network is quite well seperated from the rest...


----------



## Blunderbuss

kevloral said:


> Read again:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems (that is not clear yet) that *the s730* does not use ERTMS in that line. It's not that the line doesn't have ERTMS installed (it has). Have a look at this video (the 360p resolution doesn't work, but others do) of the same track. You can clearly see the ERTMS beacons there:


Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off? Is it what the author from Guardian quoted earlier meant when he wrote that _"the system [ERTMS] was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA"_? On the cabview video you can see the train pass a sign saying "CAMBIO MODO ASFA".



zazo said:


> Well, I guess because actually it is not a High speed line, but a 'rail line in high speed' sections where trains use to get 200 kph and sections in 80 or 120, ERTMS is designed for the HSL network, where trains travel at 350 kph, so, just in 3 lines, the HSL of the north will be inaugurated in 2018, and AVE trains along others will start using it at real high speed. (ERTMS is working on the high speed sections of the north)


Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h.


----------



## SAS 16

> Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off?


ERTMS is installed and working on that line (orense-santiago). About the train ...some people say it was NOT working with ertms and some people say it WAS so far this is still discussed



> Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h.


ERTMS is used in all hsl but madrid sevilla that has LZB (german) and acces to stations (correct me if im wrong). ERTMS is also installed in madrid commuter system which i doubt they go over 160 km/h


----------



## TimeOff

In that section, there is not ERTMS only ASFA... why? maybe because is just 4km away from the station, about 2mins! some people says because ERTMS doesnt work properly in a curv like that, in any case that is a blind section in security terms.

Anyways, is not the first time the driver pass through this way, so he knew perfectly which were the conditions... He simply wanted to run at overspeed, because theres not ERTMS to limit him... He knew it!

Do we need to put ERTMS inside the stations too?

Even a kid playing in a simulator, learns where in the track you must to go slower and where to go faster... and theres not ERTMS in the simulator, which doesnt mean youre going to derail everytime!


----------



## TimeOff

acela said:


> Is this the same train the Spanish will be providing to the Saudis?


Mexico wants the same train, there is not any problem with the train or the technology but with the way they implemented it and the human resources.

It is about 75% human error, the rest negligence on the implementation of systems anti overspeed..


----------



## zazo1

Blunderbuss said:


> Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off? Is it what the author from Guardian quoted earlier meant when he wrote that _"the system [ERTMS] was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA"_? On the cabview video you can see the train pass a sign saying "CAMBIO MODO ASFA".
> 
> 
> 
> Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h.


I think you don't have understood what it's written at all or you don't follow the thread.
This HSL in construction will be inaugurated in 2018-2020, there are two sections working as HSL with normal speeds of 220 and with ERTMS working. The accident *has not happened on a HSL* but in a conventional line inside a city, so the control system is not ERTMS, but ASFA, the one which works on conventional lines. ERTMS system ends 400 m before the place of the crash, enough distance to reduce from 190 kph to 100/80 kph, as 30 trains do everyday for a long time.
This train is prepared to go through conventional lines in iberian gauge and ''medium-high speed'' on HSL, both electrial and diesel, and it is capable to read both control systems, ASFA does not stop the trains on conventional lines. In the european media it's said the train received perfectly the signal and activated the alarm, but the driver couldn't stop, he tried on the bend, and this is the reason why the disaster happened.
A human error.

Here you can see how ''fast'' this line is: Section capable to receive High speed from Ourense to 5 km from Santiago.


----------



## TimeOff

keber said:


> Signalling wise around 200 m according to posted videos of a track in normal conditions.
> Still having ERMTS or not on particular part of the track this is no excuse for driver for not obeying speed limits. He/She must know track layout and speed limits before. Great majority of railway tracks on the world don't have any systems to slow down top the train if it goes over designed speed limit and there are no problems with that.


Exactly..


----------



## earthJoker

TimeOff said:


> He simply wanted tu run at overspeed, because theres not ERTMS to limit him... He knew it!


That is quite a big implication you do here. If he speeded intentionally at a place where he know that there was no ERTMS it would make him sole reliable for the accident. The reason is in the way safety systems are designed. Unlike security system, safety system are designed against errors, not against abuse.


----------



## zazo1

NEW INFO: as the train is a hybrid one which can run in any track, it can read both systems, ASFA (for conventional and stations) and ERTMS (for HSL).
Well, the route it was doing is HSL in one section, conventional in another and HSL in iberian gauge in another. 
The driver from the Ourense station_ (where a small HSL section starts)_ to the place of the accident didn't activate the ERTMS system that day on that travel _(it came from an ASFA rail section)_, so all this way it was travelling on ASFA, the manual system which cannot stop the train unless you're faster than 200 kph, this explains why the train didn't stopped before inside the tunnel on the HSL, ERTMS was not activated, but the manual, so the driver made a mistake and in order to solve it, he decided to stop the train on the bend... and this is because the train crashed, actually the speed is not the reason, but the* slowdown*.


----------



## TimeOff

mistake? after reading what he posted on his facebook I sustain the theory that the driver simply didnt activate the ERTMS because he wanted to run and "gozar" (enjoy) the overspeed at he stated by his own words.

When he tried to stop, it was to late.


----------



## zazo1

TimeOff said:


> mistake? after reading what he posted on his facebook I sustain the theory that the driver simply didnt activate the ERTMS because he wanted to run and "gozar" (enjoy) the overspeed at he stated by his own words.
> 
> When he tried to stop, it was to late.


Nobody thinks that. It's just stupid.


----------



## eu01

Someone else's thoughts partially, but let's analyze that kind of speculation.

What if...
What if it wasn't the driver's first time?
Certainly in the beginning he used to stick to the rules and passed through the bend with the allowed 80 km/h. Soo slow...
Then he tried 100 km/h. No problems.
Why not try 120? Passed.
Would be fascinating to try 140... Wow!
You know what I mean? Needed adrenaline or something.
Just nobody noticed or acted.

Only a hypothesis.


----------



## TimeOff

psychologist will have an important part in this case.


----------



## Attus

TimeOff said:


> psychologist will have an important part in this case.


Yes. You obviously need one.


----------



## Svartmetall

Please keep this thread respectful. Obviously emotions are running away at the moment due to the tragedy and so we should avoid idle speculation - save that for the nonsense off-topic sections of the forum and please only stick to the facts. It is bad enough that such an event happened let alone to tar and feather people without (as of yet) conclusive proof.

Many thanks.


----------



## gramercy

zazo said:


> he decided to stop the train on the bend... and this is because the train crashed, actually the speed is not the reason, but the* slowdown*.


so you think this train could have negotiated this bend at this speed had it not been for the activation of the brakes?


----------



## M-NL

zazo said:


> ERTMS system ends 400 m before the place of the crash, enough distance to reduce from 190 kph to 100/80 kph, as 30 trains do everyday for a long time.


I hope the 400m is a typo and meant to say 4000m. 190 km/h to 80 km/h in 400m means a required deceleration of 2,85 m/s^2. That's a bit much for normal service braking of a train. 



zazo said:


> so the driver made a mistake and in order to solve it, he decided to stop the train on the bend... and this is because the train crashed, actually the speed is not the reason, but the* slowdown*.


I also thought of that. Why would the train pass over 50% of the bend without problems and all of a sudden something seems to upset the balance. It is actually the carriages that derail first and pulls the front power car with them.

When you drive a car through a bend at speed and brake heavily mid corner, there is good chance you'll spin of the road. In this case the wheels can handle either the cornering force or the braking force, not both at the same time. Here the same may have happened.

I'll be very curious to hear the results of the official inquiry. The driver obviously sped, so he's partly to blame. But the party responsible for the infrastructure is just as guilty, because they didn't seem to have provided any protection against speeding trains. We'll have to wait.


----------



## TimeOff

Svartmetall said:


> Please keep this thread respectful. Obviously emotions are running away at the moment due to the tragedy and so we should avoid idle speculation - save that for the nonsense off-topic sections of the forum and please only stick to the facts. It is bad enough that such an event happened let alone to tar and feather people without (as of yet) conclusive proof.
> 
> Many thanks.


youre right, poor people those whose only argument is to unrespect other forumers because they dont agree with their opinions.


----------



## Peloso

Svartmetall said:


> It is bad enough that such an event happened let alone to tar and feather people without (as of yet) conclusive proof.
> 
> Many thanks.


In view of what is ascertained so far, I guess the only possibility for the blame to be shifted from the driver would be a failure of the brakes or the ASFA (it won't slow down the train but it's designed to give out a slow down signal, if I understand it right), AND if the trainer was not trained to cope with this last evenience. "To tar and feather" is a suggestive phrase but in absence of a failure, any way you put it, the accident's responsibility lies largely on the driver's conscience (as he himself admitted). It is true that, morally, the people who organized the line are also at fault (abrupt change of speed, no further protection layer from overspeed). If I had to guess, the driver was distracted, possibly chatting with his colleague or something in that fashion, so he lost track of his position, and missed the speed warning. One mitigating circumstance for him could be fatigue.
M-NL: I doubt a corner designed for 80 km/h (small radius, not sloped) can retain a train going at 200. Also a train is not a car, it's not wheel friction that keeps it on the rails in a bend, it's the wheels' inner rim, so I don't think braking in the corner could play a major role.


----------



## TimeOff

Silly_Walks said:


> You register here after the accident happens, and all you post are horrible accusations towards the driver, without any proof. That, sir, has all the markings of a *troll*. I was respectful as I could be to someone who showed zero respect to the driver or this forum with *your ridiculous unfounded posts*, and only came here as a *provocateur*.
> 
> Seriously, look at the date you registered and every post you made since that moment: it just screams "*internet troll*".



for moderator's registry.

btw, ignore list to this person.


----------



## Silly_Walks

volodaaaa said:


> So the track is not secured in case of e.g. driver's heart attack?^^


That's generally the train itself with something like a 'dead man's switch'.


----------



## volodaaaa

Silly_Walks said:


> That's generally the train itself with something like a 'dead man's switch'.


Well I know - it had been introduced in many trains all around the world, but it has the temporal interval you have to push the button within. 

Therefore I agree with attus. The system where high-speed track is ended by sharp bend and driver takes full responsibility of slowing down is mistake by itself.


----------



## TedStriker

There's a video of the view from the driver's cab of a train which shows clearly how slowly the bend ought to have been taken. 

Well I found it useful - it makes the accident footage look that much more terrible to me.


----------



## TimeOff

^^ an hour before the accident, a train crossed just like this and today several ones did just as safe like that... all of them slowed down by the drivers...


----------



## zazo1

Silly_Walks said:


> Wasn't the train capable of 250 km/h and didn't it come off a high speed track just before it went into the bend?


Of course it's capable to get 250 kph, almost every train in Spain... _(my father's car is capable to run up to 250 kph too)_

The track from where it was coming accept now 220 kph as maximum in a small section, that line will be a real HSL in 2018 or 2020  I've been investigating and actually high speed in Europe is considered more than 250 kph in new lines.

Here you can read the maximum speed in that section which in the future will be a HSL. _(the line is capable to host 300 kph in a future)_:











High speed lines are: *Madrid-France, Madrid-South, Madrid-East, Madrid-Valladolid*. These lines are the only ones were AVE runs _(not in Madrid-Valladolid)_, and the only ones where this train can run up to 350 kph, and there are some other trains which can use some of them, but not at this speed, sure.

Of course the Alvia trains which makes the route from Madrid to Cadiz using the HSL until Seville and the conventional to Cadiz are not considered High speed services, they don't reach 250 kph...

*This is not a High speed train*, and uses a small section which will accept high speed (+250) in the future. I may say this train goes through the high speed line from Madrid to Segovia (some km) in the HSL Madrid-Valladolid (AVE doesn't exist there) and speed doesn't get 250 kph_ (it's capable)_ then conventional, then a new iberian line which will receive AVE's in 2018.


Here you may read the declaration of the Renfe's president (let's go to the last section):
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2013/07/26/espana/1374857316.html


*THIS IS NOT THE PROPER THREAD*, let's go to conventional one.


----------



## Silly_Walks

volodaaaa said:


> Therefore I agree with attus. The system where high-speed track is ended by sharp bend and driver takes full responsibility of slowing down is mistake by itself.


Then you also agree with me, as I have repeated that same sentiment a few times already :lol:


----------



## Silly_Walks

zazo said:


> (cut)


Hmm... maybe the accident related messages can be moved over?


----------



## Blunderbuss

zazo said:


> I think you don't have understood what it's written at all or you don't follow the thread.
> This HSL in construction will be inaugurated in 2018-2020, there are two sections working as HSL with normal speeds of 220 and with ERTMS working. The accident *has not happened on a HSL* but in a conventional line inside a city, so the control system is not ERTMS, but ASFA, the one which works on conventional lines. ERTMS system ends 400 m before the place of the crash, enough distance to reduce from 190 kph to 100/80 kph, as 30 trains do everyday for a long time.
> This train is prepared to go through conventional lines in iberian gauge and ''medium-high speed'' on HSL, both electrial and diesel, and it is capable to read both control systems, ASFA does not stop the trains on conventional lines. In the european media it's said the train received perfectly the signal and activated the alarm, but the driver couldn't stop, he tried on the bend, and this is the reason why the disaster happened.
> A human error.


As much as I admire your knowledge and expertise on the topic, I'd really appreciate if you refrained from making assumptions about what I know and what I've read. I know perfectly well where the accident occured, what are the speed limits on the curve and on the line before that. The question whether ERTMS was active before the crash has been raised both in the media and in different sections of this forum, so I guess me inquiring the problem of the ERTMS on the section before the crash site wasn't completely off the line - especially that you admited yourself that the ERTMS wasn't on, because the driver forgot to switch it on. Thank you for clearing that out - I'm just wondering whether your explanation is only a hypothesis or is it confirmed somewhere by the media/Spanish railway companies/Spanish authorities (if so, just say it, I don't speak Spanish, I might have simply missed it).


----------



## TimeOff

Chairman of rail company, ADIF, says driver should have started braking 4km before crash site.

*Adif asegura que el maquinista debió empezar a frenar cuatro kilómetros antes del accidente*


----------



## Silly_Walks

I wonder if the driver normally does switch ERTMS on on that bit of track, and forgot this time around, but was subconsciously still waiting for the signal to switch to ASFA, which never came.

Was it allowed to run that stretch on ASFA with that particular train?


----------



## skyridgeline

Blunderbuss said:


> Ok, correct me if I'm mistaken - the yellow beacons are from the ERTMS and the the brown ones are from ASFA. So, the ERTMS is on the line, the trackside equipment has been installed - only it's not being used (at least all the time), either because the trains (at least the s730) are not equipped with on board systems or because it's simply switched off? Is it what the author from Guardian quoted earlier meant when he wrote that _"the system [ERTMS] was not in use on the Madrid-Ferrol line. It is governed instead by a Spanish safety system, called ASFA"_? On the cabview video you can see the train pass a sign saying "CAMBIO MODO ASFA".
> 
> 
> 
> *Here in Poland we have lines where ERTMS is being installed and the top speed is 160 km/h so I see no reason why the Spanish should not use ERTMS on their dedicated HSL just because the trains don't travel at 350 km/h*.






Blunderbuss said:


> As much as I admire your knowledge and expertise on the topic, I'd really appreciate if you refrained from making assumptions about what I know and what I've read. I know perfectly well where the accident occured, what are the speed limits on the curve and on the line before that. The question whether ERTMS was active before the crash has been raised both in the media and in different sections of this forum, so I guess me inquiring the problem of the ERTMS on the section before the crash site wasn't completely off the line - *especially that you admited yourself that the ERTMS wasn't on, because the driver forgot to switch it on. *Thank you for clearing that out - I'm just wondering whether your explanation is only a hypothesis or is it confirmed somewhere by the media/Spanish railway companies/Spanish authorities (if so, just say it, I don't speak Spanish, I might have simply missed it).



Zazo has his/her own agenda/interest.


----------



## 33Hz

I think RENFE/ADIF will "hang the driver out to dry", only to deflect from their own negligence.

There is *no way* that a modern train should be allowed to exit a HSL just 400m before such a sharp curve at 250 km/h. They know it, but politics will make sure the driver takes the blame, in order to preserve confidence in the high speed rail system.

As others have said above, what if the driver had a heart attack? The signalling should have reduced the speed to the appropriate level before leaving the HSL. Period.


----------



## TimeOff

^^ so technology should be blamed so nobody else trust in High Speed Industry?

Then implement ERTMS everywhere, even inside the station and on tracks with 20kmh limit, because drivers are not trustable at all... mere passengers.

If the speed limit is 10kmh with ERTMS and a train crashes at 20kmh is not drivers responsability, but technological one... ? 

Ideology is starting to hijack this tragedy... now is unions vs evil corporations, liberals vs conservatives, PSOE vs PP...


----------



## 33Hz

Don't be an idiot. This is a 250 km/h section decelerating to 80 km/h curve with suddenly no safety system. The potential for a huge accident is obvious and it is a design flaw or at least cost cutting on the part of the railway company.


----------



## Svartmetall

Okay, this is a final warning to all:

Do not speculate or fight over this. Let us wait for the news to come out. The next person who starts a fight over this with provocative comments will be given a brig to cool off. This doesn't apply to all in the thread of course, but please show some respect! Too many people, including a friend of a colleague, lost their lives.


----------



## TimeOff

33Hz said:


> Don't be an *idiot*. This is a 250 km/h section decelerating to 80 km/h curve with suddenly no safety system. The potential for a huge accident is obvious and it is a design flaw or at least cost cutting on the part of the railway company.


no safety system? but still all other drivers are not derailing... maybe because they are responsible people and do not shut off ERTMS 4km before the bend.


----------



## M-NL

TimeOff said:


> maybe because they are responsible people and do not shut off ERTMS 4km before the bend.


If you look at the map shown in post #1538 of this tread you'll notice that the ETCS to ASFA switch occurs at 4km before the bend, just before the sign announcing the 80 km/h curve. For some weird reason in the opposite direction the ASFA to ETCS switch, again according to that same map, already happens somewhere close to the accident site.


----------



## Fitzrovian

Has it been confirmed whether ERTMS was activated on the HSR portion of the track? If it wasn't, that's a major clue as to what might have happened. It is hard to imagine that a properly functioning ERTMS would not have forced a deceleration of the train prior to entering the conventional track with such an imminent tight curve.


----------



## 437.001

Service (not yet fully) recovered.



zoltan said:


>


----------



## skyridgeline

TimeOff said:


> ^^* so technology should be blamed *so nobody else trust in High Speed Industry?
> 
> Then implement ERTMS everywhere, even inside the station and on tracks with 20kmh limit, because drivers are not trustable at all... mere passengers.
> 
> If the speed limit is 10kmh with ERTMS and a train crashes at 20kmh is not drivers responsability, but technological one... ?
> 
> Ideology is starting to hijack this tragedy... now is unions vs evil corporations, liberals vs conservatives, PSOE vs PP...


The deaths,injuries and various costs to Spain could have been avoided if automatic braking technology were engaged.


----------



## gincan

Fitzrovian said:


> Has it been confirmed whether ERTMS was activated on the HSR portion of the track? If it wasn't, that's a major clue as to what might have happened. It is hard to imagine that a properly functioning ERTMS would not have forced a deceleration of the train prior to entering the conventional track with such an imminent tight curve.


ETCS on this line is programed to slow down the train to around 100 km/h BEFORE the transition to ASFA which is 4 km from the curve. The conclusion is that either there is a serious software error or the more likely scenario is that the engine driver never engaged ETCS when the train departed Ourense. Why he never did, who know, but they swiched engine driver in Ourense so possibly there is the answer to the accident.


----------



## Peloso

volodaaaa said:


> Therefore I agree with attus. The system where high-speed track is ended by sharp bend and driver takes full responsibility of slowing down is mistake by itself.


icard: I don't know, I think the thread is, sorry, derailing into the absurd. Consider a proposition such as "the system where high-speed rail [or just regular rail] is regulated by red lights and driver takes full responsibility of stopping before it is a mistake by itself". Funny, isn't it? But the case at hand gets even worse than not stopping at the red lights. Running the lights takes an instant of distraction, failing to slow down a train by 110 km/h takes some 30 seconds (I'm estimating very roughly) of distraction, and missing an acoustic signal.
To those who pointed at the need to provide against an heart attack: there was a second driver on board (again, according to what I read), let alone the "dead man button". For the umpteenth time: I agree that an additional layer of safety was needed anyway, so personally I consider ADIF-RENFE to be somehow at fault as well.


----------



## Fitzrovian

gincan said:


> ETCS on this line is programed to slow down the train to around 100 km/h BEFORE the transition to ASFA which is 4 km from the curve. The conclusion is that either there is a serious software error or the more likely scenario is that the engine driver never engaged ETCS when the train departed Ourense. Why he never did, who know, but they swiched engine driver in Ourense so possibly there is the answer to the accident.


Thank you.


----------



## skyridgeline

gincan said:


> ETCS on this line is programed to slow down the train to around 100 km/h BEFORE the transition to ASFA which is 4 km from the curve. The conclusion is that either there is a serious software error or the more likely scenario is that the engine driver *never engaged ETCS* when the train departed Ourense. Why he never did, who know, but they swiched engine driver in Ourense so possibly there is the answer to the accident.


Something is fishy with this story.


----------



## hmmwv

437.001 said:


> Service (not yet fully) recovered.


A very sad scene indeed, reminds me of this picture.


----------



## MarcVD

gincan said:


> ETCS on this line is programed to slow down the train to around 100 km/h BEFORE the transition to ASFA which is 4 km from the curve. The conclusion is that either there is a serious software error or the more likely scenario is that the engine driver never engaged ETCS when the train departed Ourense. Why he never did, who know, but they swiched engine driver in Ourense so possibly there is the answer to the accident.


Interesting speculation but with a point needing attention : in all other places
I know, if I remember well, at entrance of high-speed sections, the dedicated 
signalling system never needs to be engaged manually by the driver - it all
happens automatically, triggered by signals coming from the track. So I'm
surprised that in this particular case, a manual action by the driver was 
necessary and could have been forgotten.


----------



## 437.001

The train was NOT running under ERTMS/ETCS-1.

Between Ourense and Santiago, the Alvia class 730 do not use it yet, they use the ASFA Digital, like other Alvia trains do on the Euromed services on the upgraded Barcelona-Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante line, to name one.

With ASFA Digital (which is used as a second emergency system on Spanish HSLs, in case ERTMS/ETCS fails), it is entirely down to the driver to reduce speed.


----------



## gincan

MarcVD said:


> Interesting speculation but with a point needing attention : in all other places
> I know, if I remember well, at entrance of high-speed sections, the dedicated
> signalling system never needs to be engaged manually by the driver - it all
> happens automatically, triggered by signals coming from the track. So I'm
> surprised that in this particular case, a manual action by the driver was
> necessary and could have been forgotten.


I don't know if it is automatic or manual, all I know is that if ETCS was in use then this accident could not have happened unless there was a software or a hardware error. Hardware error I find impossible, software error has happened before with ETCS so it is a possibility.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ware-error-led-to-loetschberg-derailment.html


If it is indeed automatic then the driver is even more responsible since he actively shut of the system that would have prevented this accident.


----------



## Iwan

Blunderbuss said:


> especially that you admited yourself that the ERTMS wasn't on, because the driver forgot to switch it on. Thank you for clearing that out.


I don't understand.

If he forgot to switch it on then he couldn't go faster than 200km/h:

http://www.rtve.es/noticias/2013072...o-kilometros-antes-del-accidente/725623.shtml

_El tren viene circulando por un tramo de 200 de kilómetros por hora con el "moderno" sistema ERTMS , que controla la circulación -condiciones de la vía, del tren, circulación y velocidad-, capaz de conducir y frenar automáticamente; y pasa a hacerlo por otro de 80 km/h controlado por ASFA, un sistema para vías convencionales que solo señaliza , ha explicado. *Si no sobrepasas los 200 kilómetros, no te frena automáticamente.*
_

If speed is over 200km/h ASFA brakes automatically.

I don't believe that he didn't noticed that...


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> The train was NOT running under ERTMS/ETCS-1.
> 
> Between Ourense and Santiago, the Alvia class 730 do not use it yet, they use the ASFA Digital, like other Alvia trains do on the Euromed services on the upgraded Barcelona-Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante line, to name one.
> 
> With ASFA Digital (which is used as a second emergency system on Spanish HSLs, in case ERTMS/ETCS fails), it is entirely down to the driver to reduce speed.


But why? Why don't S/730 trains (I'm assuming it also applies to S/130) switch to ETCS when it's available?


----------



## trainrover

I wonder what must've been distracting the engineer.


----------



## skyridgeline

Iwan said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> If he forgot to switch it on then he couldn't go faster than 200km/h:
> 
> http://www.rtve.es/noticias/2013072...o-kilometros-antes-del-accidente/725623.shtml
> 
> _El tren viene circulando por un tramo de 200 de kilómetros por hora con el "moderno" sistema ERTMS , que controla la circulación -condiciones de la vía, del tren, circulación y velocidad-, capaz de conducir y frenar automáticamente; y pasa a hacerlo por otro de 80 km/h controlado por ASFA, un sistema para vías convencionales que solo señaliza , ha explicado. *Si no sobrepasas los 200 kilómetros, no te frena automáticamente.*
> _
> 
> *If speed is over 200km/h ASFA brakes automatically.
> 
> I don't believe that he didn't noticed that*...


Maybe he knew that. That's why the train's speed was between 190-200 km/h.


----------



## AlexNL

Of course he knows that. He's been working at RENFE for over 30 years, he must have been aware of how the safety systems work and what their limitations are. Yet still, I don't think there is any malicious intent from the driver. I also don't think he is a daredevil or "addicted to the kick of high speed".


----------



## Iwan

Now I understand - I've read spanish thread.



AlexNL said:


> Of course he knows that. He's been working at RENFE for over 30 years, he must have been aware of how the safety systems work and what their limitations are.


He should drive the train respecting all known limitations, if he has instinct of self-preservation.

This is a characteristic of the profession - driver is always responsible for safety - no matter how f...d up system is...



> Yet still, I don't think there is any malicious intent from the driver. I also don't think he is a daredevil or "addicted to the kick of high speed".


++


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> But why? Why don't S/730 trains (I'm assuming it also applies to S/130) switch to ETCS when it's available?




It´s not available, because it´s not reliable yet. hno:

Class 730 do not use it between Ourense and Santiago, since it gives trouble.


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> Of course he knows that. He's been working at RENFE for over 30 years, he must have been aware of how the safety systems work and what their limitations are. Yet still, I don't think there is any malicious intent from the driver. I also don't think he is a daredevil or "addicted to the kick of high speed".


Daredevil or not... well, I´ll say no more. 

Btw, seems that the death toll has been lowered to 78. 
Not-so-bad-news among the awful news, if one could say such a thing. :sleepy:

Let´s all keep fingers crossed, there are still many very seriously injured people in hospital (more than 30).


----------



## skyridgeline

trainrover said:


> I wonder what must've been distracting the engineer .




^^


----------



## Attus

Peloso said:


> icard: I don't know, I think the thread is, sorry, derailing into the absurd. Consider a proposition such as "the system where high-speed rail [or just regular rail] is regulated by red lights and driver takes full responsibility of stopping before it is a mistake by itself". Funny, isn't it?


No. A vast majority of railways all around the world HAS some tools that force the train stop at red signal, even if the driver himself does not brake the train. Did you not know it?


----------



## M-NL

Blunderbuss said:


> From what I've read it seems that ASFA works only as a "SPAD protector" - it will stop a train that passed a signal showing the red aspect.


The German PZB system is in it's essence also only a SPAD-protector. However they have engineered some called a 'Geschwindigkeitsprüfabschnitt'. It basically consists of a detector, a timer and a red-light beacon. When the train passes over the detector the timer is started and after a certain amount of time the red-light beacon is switched off. If the train is too fast it passed the red-light beacon while it's still active and a brake penalty results. Does a similar construct exist for ASFA?


----------



## skyridgeline

TimeOff said:


> Ideological manipulation is what I see here.. the article in spanish doesnt say that, you manipulated everything for your ideological comfort.
> 
> 
> this is what the article says:
> 
> 
> 
> _*
> 
> ¿Cuál es el sistema de seguridad del Alvia Madrid-Ferrol?
> 
> Hasta Olmedo (Valladolid) está activado el sistema ERTMS. A partir de ahí, funciona el ASFA. Hay un tramo de 80 kilómetros entre Ourense y Santiago donde está instalado el ERTMS. A pesar de ello, RENFE no ha homologado el sistema para el Alvia en ese tramo, según confirman desde ADIF pese a que los trenes Avant de media distancia que circulan por esa misma línea sí lo utilizan. RENFE, requerido por este periódico, no aclaró ayer por qué un año y un mes después de que los Alvia híbridos comenzasen a circular por allí aún no cuentan con esa seguridad. Tampoco confirmó si los trenes Avant sí tienen operativo el sistema. En todo caso, y a pesar de que el Alvia podría alcanzar los 220 kilómetros por hora en parte del tramo Ourense-Santiago, como va vigilado por ASFA no puede hacerlo: el límite para cualquier tren que vaya controlado por este sistema son los 200.
> 
> ¿Podría haber estado funcionando el ERTMS en la curva del accidente?
> 
> No. El tramo de 80 kilómetros en el que el sistema está instalado, pero no activado, acaba seis kilómetros antes de llegar a la estación de Santiago y tres antes de la curva en la que descarriló el tren.
> 
> ¿Por qué el ERTMS no está siquiera instalado en las inmediaciones de la estación de Santiago?
> 
> En 2011, cuando se licitó la instalación del ERTMS en esa línea, se decidió colocarlo hasta el kilómetro 80 (el accidente ocurrió en el 83,4), y así lo confirma la empresa Thales, suministradora del sistema. Los actuales gestores de ADIF aseguran que es habitual que no se instale desde varios kilómetros antes de estaciones como la de Santiago, que está en el kilómetro 87, dado que los trenes deben comenzar a frenar antes para detenerse en la estación.
> 
> ¿Habría cambiado algo que el ERTMS hubiera estado instalado antes de la curva?
> 
> Desde ADIF se indica que, aunque el Alvia hubiera podido circular con ERTMS hasta el kilómetro 80, donde finaliza el sistema en la vía, aún quedarían tres kilómetros hasta el punto del accidente. En esos últimos kilómetros hasta la estación, el tren tendría en todo caso que haber circulado solo con el ASFA, de forma que el frenado dependería del conductor. Un maquinista con 30 años de experiencia, sin embargo, señala que cuando un tren hace la transición del ERTMS al ASFA, el sistema le da todo tipo de indicaciones sobre lo que se va a encontrar en el camino, de forma que es un momento en el que el maquinista extrema la atención y se centra del todo en el recorrido.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 1.- ERTMS is only if youre going to speed over 200kmh
> 
> 2.- There is more than enough distance(4km) between the point where ERTMS ends (homologated or not) to the point of the accident
> 
> 3.- Anyways the engineer cant run over 200kmh because ASFA is in charge (no matter if there are or not ERTMS)
> 
> 4.- Is absurd to install ERTMS until the station because every engineer knows that he must to slow down way before, way way before.
> 
> 5.- The engineer is not a rookie, he has 30 years of experience, knows the route and has traveled it *60 times!*
> 
> 
> 
> *from Ourense to Santiago (80km) ERTMS is not homologated, so the train is with ASFA more than 80km before the site of the accident... so the train cant speed over 200 since is ASFA limit.... pfff so???
> 
> 83km before the crash site, the train is controlled by ASFA, since 80 km before there is ERTMS installed but not homologated, so the engineer drove 83km at max speed 200, knowing there is not ERTMS and knowing that he must start slowing down 4km before the crash site.*
> 
> 
> 
> Anything else is just *demagogic*, as someone said before.



^^


----------



## TimeOff

AlexNL said:


> Of course he knows that. He's been working at RENFE for over 30 years, he must have been aware of how the safety systems work and what their limitations are. Yet still, I don't think there is any malicious intent from the driver. I also don't think he is a daredevil or "addicted to the kick of high speed".


so the only thing that left to know are the reasons of his behaviour.. only that..


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> OK so this newpaper article in spanish says it all.
> 
> http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/26/galicia/1374871929_818532.html
> 
> Conclusions:
> 
> 1.
> 
> The Talgo model 730 is not homologated for ETCS despite 13 months in traffic.
> 
> 2.
> 
> In November 2011 PP won the elections, many of the most important polititians in PP come from *Galicia*
> 
> 3.
> 
> To homologate a new trainmodel takes many months and cost a lot. A train has to run for X hundreds of thousands of Km before ETCS is approved.
> 
> 4.
> 
> The new Talgo 730 was put in traffic in June 2012, remember that PP won the elections in November 2011.
> 
> 5.
> 
> With ETCS homologated this accident would NEVER IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY have occured.
> 
> 6.
> 
> Which is the *fucking political party* that pressured ADIF/FOMENTO/RENFE to put the new trainmodel in traffic despite it lacking the latest safety system?
> 
> I'll give a clue, where did the accident occur, YES that is right in *fucking Galicia* from where *Mariano FUCKING Rajoy* come from.
> 
> There you have it. Now let's see them sweep this mess under the carpet because you can be damned sure no politician will come forward and admit responsibility. :bash:


You seem to like to ****: fucking this, fucking that, fucking that thing in particular...

You want to show respect. You don´t want to talk about "fucking Galicia" when many of the dead are from that area. After all, it´s not your country.

Thank you for your kindness.

El País got some facts wrong.

The Alvia 730 are homologated for ETCS, otherwise there´s no way they would be running between Madrid and Medina del Campo.
But they´re not homologated between Ourense and Santiago. But that´s not the point, as another fortumer has explained.

There are not that many politicians from the Spanish Government coming from Galicia: only Mariano Rajoy (the PM), and Ana Pastor (the minister of Infrastructure, though she´s born in Castile and Leon). The former PSOE Spanish Government had another Galician Minister for Infrastructure, Jose Blanco (but he´s no longer in charge, obviously).

Don´t make so many assumptions and show some respect, please.


----------



## Svartmetall

Punishments and user notes have been handed out now. Third time I've had to post here about this issue. I am following this thread closely.

I ask everyone again, please keep the discussion respectful. A lot of people lost their lives.


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> You seem to like to ****.
> 
> The Alvia 730 are homologated for ETCS, otherwise there´s no way they would be running between Madrid and Medina del Campo.
> But they´re not homologated between Ourense and Santiago. But that´s not the point, as another fortumer has explained.


According to Wikipedia, the Madrid - Valladolid high speed line is equipped with ERTMS and ASFA Digital, so it should be possible for an Alvia S/730 to operate there under ASFA.

It would have made a difference if the S/730 were allowed to operate under ETCS, if the end of the ETCS section would have a speed limit of 100 km/h. ETCS would have forced the driver to slow down to 100 km/h when control is handed over to ASFA, which would force him to realize he is not allowed to continue at 200 km/h.


----------



## alserrod

But remember that the accident was with a speed below 200


----------



## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> According to Wikipedia, the Madrid - Valladolid high speed line is equipped with ERTMS and ASFA Digital, so it should be possible for an Alvia S/730 to operate there under ASFA.


It *is* possible to every train operating on the Madrid-Olmedo-Valladolid HSL.

I´ve used the Alvia 730 between Santiago and Madrid.
It uses the ERTMS/ETCS between Olmedo and Madrid. Why? Because there it runs at more than 220 km/h.
It doesn´t use it between Ourense and Santiago, nor between Santiago and Corunna..


----------



## Peloso

Fitzrovian said:


> Miss the whole stretch where he should have been breaking until it was too late. I imagine that on lengthy intercity journeys with only occasional stops a driver's alertness may not be at 100% at all times and he might get distracted from time to time. Who knows what this guy was doing? Maybe he was positing pictures on Facebook or texting to his girlfriend. I am not trying to be funny.


I don't want to even think about such a scenario. The only thing that I could understand (not excuse) was if he fell asleep because of fatigue. Actually I tend to consider it the most likely hypotesis since it looks like the driver was alone at his post (also a big blunder by RENFE) and could not have been distracted chatting with his colleague, and since ASFA should have given out enough visual or acoustic cues to let him know where he was. Well I guess we'll soon find out.


----------



## Fitzrovian

Peloso said:


> I don't want to even think about such a scenario. The only thing that I could understand (not excuse) was if he fell asleep because of fatigue. Actually I tend to consider it the most likely hypotesis since it looks like the driver was alone at his post (also a big blunder by RENFE) and could not have been distracted chatting with his colleague, and since ASFA should have given out enough visual or acoustic cues to let him know where he was. Well I guess we'll soon find out.


Anything could have happened, we don't know. The question remains how it can be left on the shoulders of one driver in a situation with only about a minute of reaction time. How can there be no redundancy built into the system for such a high risk segment?


----------



## trainrover

Although still mirky at best, gincan's flippant rhetoric was colourful and helped at setting the tone, especially since the engineer's hurried, rushed arrest sometime around this morning (GMT -5 hrs) ... a lot of fishiness surrounds these crashes as of late ...


----------



## 437.001

trainrover said:


> Although still mirky at best, gincan's flippant rhetoric was colourful and helped at setting the tone, especially since *the engineer's hurried, rushed arrest sometime around this morning* (GMT -5 hrs) ... a lot of fishiness surrounds these crashes as of late ...


He was arrested yesterday (July 26th, 2013) in the hospital.
Today he was only released from the hospital, and subsequently, sent to the police station.


----------



## alserrod

And already left hospital, being in the police station and to face a judge


----------



## Peloso

Fitzrovian said:


> Anything could have happened, we don't know. The question remains how it can be left on the shoulders of one driver in a situation with only about a minute of reaction time. How can there be no redundancy built into the system for such a high risk segment?


Any coach driver on a highway must have a reaction time of one second and nobody even conceived that they could have some redundancy, go figure. They don't even have any aid in the cockpit duplicating road signals.


----------



## Fitzrovian

Peloso said:


> Any coach driver on a highway must have a reaction time of one second and nobody even conceived that they could have some redundancy, go figure. They don't even have any aid in the cockpit duplicating road signals.


A poor analogy. For starters, a coach carries far fewer passengers and travels at a much lower velocity than a high speed train. Thus if a bus crashes (even on a freeway) the consequences are likely to be less catastrophic than a plane on wheels hurtling at 200+ kph. Secondly, a bus driver is in full control of his vehicle at all times so the chances of distraction are not as high. Sure he can still have a heart attack or fall asleep, and such accidents do happen from time to time, but that is an unavoidable element of such mode of transport. The passengers understand that and are willing to take that risk. They can also see the driver. High speed trains OTOH are highly automated machines where the driver is separated from passengers, is less actively involved in the operation of the vehicle and it is technologically possible (and far more critical) to have electronic safety features.

A better analogy would be a plane. All large commercial aircrafts have at least two pilots in the cockpit. The same should have been required here in the absence of ETCS.


----------



## TimeOff

a survivor just revealed that the train was speeding at 210kmh just at the moment of derailment and not at 190kmh as the engineer said.



the latest information:

La Policía atribuye al maquinista homicidio por imprudencia

*"Fuentes de la investigación consultadas por EL MUNDO barajan la teoría de que Francisco José Garzón hablaba por el teléfono móvil en el momento del accidente, informa Marisa Recuero."*


*"Sources of the Police research group consulted by EL MUNDO manage the theory that Francisco José Garzón was talking by mobile phone at the time of the accident, reports Marisa Recuero"*


----------



## AlexNL

Talking on a phone is not unusual for drivers of any train, as they have to communicate with departments such as Traffic Control or Dispatching.


----------



## Attus

Peloso said:


> It is a vast MINORITY really, also did you not know that such systems DO NOT exhonerate at all the driver from stopping at the red signal?


Yes, basically you're right, these systems usually do not force the train to stop at before the red signal is reached; if he drive the train at a low speed against the stop signal, the system will not brake the train. However, most of them brakes the train if the driver does not brake at all.


----------



## TimeOff

basically there is a misconception... the driver is the one and 1st responsible... any other system is an assistance, a complement, a help, a redundant support.... in XIX century and most of XXth century there was not any kind of ASFA, ERTMS or whatever...

human being is at last the solely responsible, for the application, control and implementation of every kind of technology... since is his creator.


----------



## M-NL

TimeOff said:


> a survivor just revealed that the train was speeding at 210kmh just at the moment of derailment and not at 190kmh as the engineer said.


And how did the survivor know that? I know it's not uncommon to use GPS for that, I did so myself on the Thalys. But GPS doesn't work inside tunnels, like the one just before the curve and needs some time to recover when the signal returns, sometimes displaying wrong figures in the process. The fact that you are inside a metal box with in this case rocks and concrete walls on either side doesn't help accuracy either.
The only thing I really trust for an accurate speed reading are the black boxes, which is investigated right now.



TimeOff said:


> basically there is a misconception... the driver is the one and 1st responsible... any other system is an assistance, a complement, a help, a redundant support.... in XIX century and most of XXth century there was not any kind of ASFA, ERTMS or whatever...


Ever since the invention of the train there have been a great deal of accidents because of driver failure and lack of those systems. 
For safety systems levels are defined (see here). Train safety systems must meet the high level, level SIL4. That's because the consequences in a major accident (several dead people) are so severe. Research has shown that a person (yes, I know a person isn't an instrumented system) is not even reliable enough to reach SIL1 level.
So yes, the driver may have the final responsibility, but needs to be well supported, because he has a relatively high probability of failure. Unfortunately a lot of accidents were needed to come to that conclusion.


----------



## Attus

TimeOff said:


> most of XXth century there was not any kind of ASFA, ERTMS or whatever...


Negative. The first modern tools of this kind were created in 1930's. 
And in there is no railway of 200 km/h without such a tool. For a speed of 200 km/h and more, taking all responsibility to the driver is insane. Period.


----------



## Norge78

RIP to the victims


----------



## Attus

M-NL said:


> And how did the survivor know that?


He probably does not know anything but now he's in newspapers and he's happy about it.


----------



## TimeOff

M-NL said:


> *And how did the survivor know that?* I know it's not uncommon to use GPS for that, I did so myself on the Thalys. But GPS doesn't work inside tunnels, like the one just before the curve and needs some time to recover when the signal returns, sometimes displaying wrong figures in the process. The fact that you are inside a metal box with in this case rocks and concrete walls on either side doesn't help accuracy either.
> The only thing I really trust for an accurate speed reading are the black boxes, which is investigated right now.


I saw in TVe news and was looking for a source to post here (I didnt find a source since is very recent) but the case is this:

_*a girl says that her boyfriend told her "hey we are going so fast 210kmh dont you think?" and she looked at the monitor at her car and said "oh yeah, oh yes!" and then the derailment..*_.

is what i saw in the news...


----------



## TimeOff

Attus said:


> Negative. The first modern tools of this kind were created in 1930's.
> And in there is no railway of 200 km/h without such a tool. For a speed of 200 km/h and more, taking all responsibility to the driver is insane. Period.


yes youre right, Im meaning at high speed rails... but is ok youre right.. still the idea is, that there was not such of a technology as we have now..


----------



## TimeOff

Attus said:


> He probably does not know anything but now he's in newspapers and he's happy about it.


bro, I just said that *she said* so in the tv..... I dont know if she was paid by the government or if is a conspiracy theory by the masters of money... im telling you what very probably tomorrow you will be able to find by yourself googling a bit.


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## GH1618

M-NL said:


> And how did the survivor know that? ...


The speed is displayed in the car.


----------



## Peloso

Attus said:


> Yes, basically you're right, these systems usually do not force the train to stop at before the red signal is reached; if he drive the train at a low speed against the stop signal, the system will not brake the train. However, most of them brakes the train if the driver does not brake at all.


Not only that, but not stopping at the red lights is held as a grave violation, and the driver will incur into penalties, or will get fired, even if he didn't cause any disaster and/or electronics intervened to stop the train afterwards.


Fitzrovian said:


> A poor analogy. For starters, a coach carries far fewer passengers


...yet there are a lot more coaches than trains out there.


Fitzrovian said:


> and travels at a much lower velocity than a high speed train. Thus if a bus crashes (even on a freeway) the consequences are likely to be less catastrophic than a plane on wheels hurtling at 200+ kph.


On the contrary, when a bus crashes at 120 km/h usually there is a 100 percent of casualties, while in most cases the majority on the people on a train survives. Even in the case at hand (an extreme one, since the crash happened at 200 km/h, and historically one of the worst) the number of victims is almost equal to the number of passengers on a coach. But anyway, a reaction time of one second (my original point) is the same at all speeds, and so is a (non-)reaction time of one minute, as in the case of Santiago.


Fitzrovian said:


> Secondly, a bus driver is in full control of his vehicle at all times so the chances of distraction are not as high.


You must be joking... the chances for fatigue, exhaustion or suddenly falling asleep are much higher for a bus.


Fitzrovian said:


> Sure he can still have a heart attack or fall asleep, and such accidents do happen from time to time,


'zactly, just about ten times more often than with trains.


Fitzrovian said:


> but that is an unavoidable element of such mode of transport. The passengers understand that and are willing to take that risk.


So why the passengers could not understand that there's a driver at the command of a train with full responsibility and a lighter physical and mental burden?


Fitzrovian said:


> They can also see the driver.


Big deal :lol:


Fitzrovian said:


> High speed trains OTOH are highly automated machines where the driver is separated from passengers, is less actively involved in the operation of the vehicle and it is technologically possible (and far more critical) to have electronic safety features.


Why is far more critical, I don't understand, regarding the technological possibility... so you believe that, since it is technologically possible to have electronic safety features (you really mean *an electronic replacement for the driver*) we should stop using trains that don't implement them? Do you realize that 95 percent of trains still work without them? Do you realize that the Santiago crash could have happened with a large number of non-HS trains on any non-HS line in the world? That anywhere a train was speeding at 190 km/h on a 80 km/h max bend you would have had a similar result?


Fitzrovian said:


> A better analogy would be a plane. All large commercial aircrafts have at least two pilots in the cockpit. The same should have been required here in the absence of ETCS.


Now this is a more interesting point. I agree that two drivers should ALWAYS be present at the same time at the command post, and that RENFE is responsible for not providing them (out of economic considerations, of course). Sadly, this is a trend happening everywhere. On the other hand, notice that planes ("highly automated machines where the driver is separated from the passengers") do have electronic safety features (the ALVIA train also had them) but do NOT provide for electronics to replace the pilots in fundamental phases of flight (take off and landing, where most accidents happen). Have you ever wondered why they don't? And what the pilots think about it? Have you ever wondered what the passengers think of having the pilots drive the planes in critical phases of flight vs. having electronics do the job? Have you ever wondered what would happen if we shifted the drivers' functions fully onto machines?


----------



## alserrod

GH1618 said:


> The speed is displayed in the car.


Correct. All cars offer information like external temperature, number of car and live speed indeed


----------



## Ribarca

Peloso said:


> Miss what? 4 kms of rail features? He didn't even START to brake.4 kms is the distance from the fatal bend where he should have started braking, a RENFE spokesperson said. I guess the moment he should have begun PREPARING to slow down is much earlier, this depends on the type of training he received. It is inexplicable any way you put it.


RENFE are a party in this trial not a witness. They would never say anything that would lay the minimal blame on themselves. They rather have the driver take all the blame.

As the editorial in el Pais wondered why have Adif and RENFE not have had a press conference to explain their side of the story?


----------



## mshoneyrose

If I may make a couple of points.

The accident occurred at a point where the high speed digital track equipped with automated train stopping systems (ETCS is European standard) changes over to an older Spanish system called ASFA for the last 4km into Santiago.

ASFA sounds alarms in cab when speed limits are exceeded but does not auto stop the train until speed on a restricted section of track exceeds 200kph. According to a survivor the monitor in his cab showed speed of 194kph just before the crash, so the ASFA stop would not be activated.

So did ASFA not function? Did the brakes fail? Did the driver fall asleep? Personally I doubt this - I think the driver's attention wandered. Why was he not alerted by ASFA alarms in his cab? Here it starts to get a bit hazy.

There have been suggestions that there is a short stretch of unalarmed track where the digital track using ECTS changes to ASFA, just before the bend where the crash occurred. In which case it is up to the driver to remember to slow down. Another explanation I read is that to trigger the changeover to ASFA, the train needs to reach a red signal and there is none on this section of track. So at the changeover point just before where the accident occurred it is up to the driver to remember himself to slow down.

Under this scenario, the driver's attention wandered and by the time the he got the alarm in his cab, it was too late to slow down. What happened in the cab should be on the train's black box, but I do wonder whether if it shows a gap in security systems at this point, if this will be released to the public.

RENFE the operating company has justified having the older tack and ASFA system on the approach to Santiago, despite the dangerous bend, on the grounds the driver should be slowing down here anyway on the approach to Santiago.

Both high speed and less high speed trains use the stretch of track where the accident occurred and some rail experts have expressed shock at the severity of the accident and queried if track fatigue was a contributing factor.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ But wasn't the train using ASFA since Ourense?

I watched on of those cab-ride videos (on a normal train). It appears that the HSL is a rather intermittent sequence of tunnels and viaducts, with not much external landscape references. In this case, it is easier to get distracted, especially by the sudden changes on lighting (the "flashing" effect). Even if you've driven a route several times, abundance of these repeated changes make remembering where you are a bit more tricky than a scenario like a very long tunnel, a sector along a river valley then crossing a big city and then two big curves on the final approach - for instance.


----------



## Peloso

mshoneyrose said:


> If I may make a couple of points.
> 
> The accident occurred at a point where the high speed digital track equipped with automated train stopping systems (ETCS is European standard) changes over to an older Spanish system called ASFA for the last 4km into Santiago.


Heck no. As they already pointed out in the spanish thread, here:
http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2013/07/26/galicia/1374871929_818532.html
it is said that ERMTS had never worked for this train on the section between Ourense and Santiago, quote: "Hasta Olmedo (Valladolid) está activado el sistema ERTMS. A partir de ahí, funciona el ASFA. Hay un tramo de 80 kilómetros entre Ourense y Santiago donde está instalado el ERTMS. A pesar de ello, RENFE no ha homologado el sistema para el Alvia en ese tramo, según confirman desde ADIF pese a que los trenes Avant de media distancia que circulan por esa misma línea sí lo utilizan".


Ribarca said:


> RENFE are a party in this trial not a witness. They would never say anything that would lay the minimal blame on themselves. They rather have the driver take all the blame.


Well I don't think RENFE could be so stupid as to lie on a piece of information that's so easily verifiable by the drivers' union or any journalist. There are signals, and written procedural documents. I'm not good at maths, but in my mind 4 kms more or less correspond to the distance needed to brake a train from 200 km/h to 70 km/h.


----------



## alserrod

To sum up
Ertms installed but not operating
That point had not ertms at all

The rest of HSR of Spain and some commuter lanes with high traffic have ertms


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## mshoneyrose

Yes it appears, that contrary to what we were originally told, although the crash train was equipped with ETCS it had never used it, relying instead on the older ASFA for its entire journey. It is not clear if this was basic ASFA or the newer digital version. If the basic version then there would have been very little in the way of signals to the driver in his cab.

Here is what it said in the International Rail Journal on Friday

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/etcs-not-operable-on-santiago-crash-train.html

Here is an extract, click link to read full version

"Drivers of Avant trains brake manually on the section where the accident occurred because the driver interface does not display a braking curve in the transition section between ETCS and Afsa.......Both Asfa and the more advanced Asfa Digital are automatic train protection (ATP) systems, but the latter provides the driver with information on braking curves while standard Asfa only triggers an emergency brake application if a signal has been passed at danger. It is unclear at this stage which version of Asfa is installed on the line."

Anyone know the answer to this - it is standard or digital asfa in use on the line where the accident occurred?


----------



## K_

Peloso said:


> Do you realize that 95 percent of trains still work without them?


This is not correct. I do now know of many examples where trains are allowed to travel at speeds above 160kph without some form of cab signalling. There are countries where the number of trains that travel without some form of automatic train protection is zero...



> Do you realize that the Santiago crash could have happened with a large number of non-HS trains on any non-HS line in the world? That anywhere a train was speeding at 190 km/h on a 80 km/h max bend you would have had a similar result?


Where are those large numbers of trains able to travel at high speed without advanced protection?
Not in the US. Not in Germany. Not in the Netherlands. Not in Switzerland. Not in Belgium. Not in Italy. Not in France. Not in the UK. Not in Japan. 

Only in Spain? Then Spain has a problem...



> Now this is a more interesting point. I agree that two drivers should ALWAYS be present at the same time at the command post, and that RENFE is responsible for not providing them (out of economic considerations, of course). Sadly, this is a trend happening everywhere.


Having a single engineer on a train is not a "trend", it is the norm. Having a second driver would only distract the first.
High speed trains travel with a single driver almost everywhere.


----------



## Ribarca

Peloso said:


> Well I don't think RENFE could be so stupid as to lie on a piece of information that's so easily verifiable by the drivers' union or any journalist. There are signals, and written procedural documents. I'm not good at maths, but in my mind 4 kms more or less correspond to the distance needed to brake a train from 200 km/h to 70 km/h.


Ofcourse they won't lie. I mean that will not do anything that would put themselves in a bad light. Ideally all the blame lays on the driver for them. That's why I said that they are not a witness in this, they are possibly to blame as well. Let's wait the enquiry now.


----------



## Fitzrovian

Peloso said:


> Not only that, but not stopping at the red lights is held as a grave violation, and the driver will incur into penalties, or will get fired, even if he didn't cause any disaster and/or electronics intervened to stop the train afterwards....yet there are a lot more coaches than trains out there.On the contrary, when a bus crashes at 120 km/h usually there is a 100 percent casualties, while in most cases the majority on the people on a train survives. Even in the case at hand (an extreme one, since the crash happened at 200 km/h, and historically one of the worst) the number of victims is almost equal to the number of passengers on a coach. But anyway, a reaction time of one second (my original point) is the same at all speeds, and so is a (non-)reaction time of one minute, as in the case of Santiago.You must be joking... the chances for fatigue, exhaustion or suddenly falling asleep are much higher for a bus.'zactly, just about ten times more often than with trains.So why the passengers could not understand that there's a driver at the command of a train with full responsibility and a lighter physical and mental burden?Big dea
> :lol:Why is far more critical, I don't understand, regarding the technological possibility... so you believe that, since it is technologically possible to have electronic safety features (you really mean *an electronic replacement for the driver*) we should stop using trains that don't implement them? Do you realize that 95 percent of trains still work without them? Do you realize that the Santiago crash could have happened with a large number of non-HS trains on any non-HS line in the world? That anywhere a train was speeding at 190 km/h on a 80 km/h max bend you would have had a similar result?Now this is a more interesting point. I agree that two drivers should ALWAYS be present at the same time at the command post, and that RENFE is responsible for not providing them (out of economic considerations, of course). Sadly, this is a trend happening everywhere. On the other hand, notice that planes ("highly automated machines where the driver is separated from the passengers") do have electronic safety features (the ALVIA train also had them) but do NOT provide for electronics to replace the pilots in fundamental phases of flight (take off and landing, where most accidents happen). Have you ever wondered why they don't? And what the pilots think about it? Have you ever wondered what the passengers think of having the pilots drive the planes in critical phases of flight vs. having electronics do the job? Have you ever wondered what would happen if we shifted the drivers' functions fully onto machines?


You are continuing to be willfully obtuse. We are talking about a situation where a high speed train cruising at 200+ kph is suddenly required to decelerate to 80 kph within a single minute. This is not typical for "95 percent" of trains/journeys. This would almost never happen on a purely conventional track, and if it ever happens on a dedicated HSL there are back-up systems supporting the driver. It is not even comparable to a plane landing scenario where the pilot is in manual control of the flight for a long period of time prior to touchdown. If he falls asleep/gets distracted prior to descent the plane isn't going to crash into a wall. There are certain operational aspects of a flight that cannot be automated but there are other redundancies built into the system. Here, based on what I have read so far, there were none. Of course, ultimately this is a cost/benefit analysis. You look at the magnitude of risk, the probability of something going wrong, and the likely consequences. I guess RENFE, like you, thought that the cost/benefit analysis did not require implementing any redundancies in this scenario. The results speak for themselves.


----------



## alserrod

To everybody.... Please inform yourself before writing wrong things.

In Spain there have been full HSL with asfa and there are conventional lines with ertms.

Maybe a search and a query in the Spanish forums will answer you these and other questions


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## Rayancito

K_ said:


> Not in the US. Not in Germany. Not in the Netherlands. Not in Switzerland. Not in Belgium. Not in Italy. Not in France. Not in the UK.


 I think that you are completely mistaken, starting by the UK, do trains running at 200 Km / H have a signalling system that prevents running faster that what the signals on the track indicate?

In Spain the other Line where a train can go up to 200 km / H is Cadiz Sevilla, where i hope they will deploy ERTMS / ECTS once the line is completely finished (it is now operational in 80 % of the line with Asfa digital).


----------



## Suburbanist

I don't see what it the point of having two drivers. It would create enormous CRM (cockipt resource management) issues. That happens on airplanes, but airplanes do need co-pilots because the impairment of a pilot means the plane can't possible land. On trains, impairment of a driver should mean the train stops. Might be a P.I.T.A. if it stops in the middle of a long tunnel, but loss of a driver ability to control the train shouldn't mean anything more than an emergency stop.

CRM-related issues are serious. For instance, drivers might think the other has managed to take note of something. You'd need specific procedures like those for flying airplanes and standardized cross-checked lists.


----------



## trainrover

TimeOff said:


> the driver is the one and 1st responsible...


Nonsense. If not always, train accidents usually occur due to a chain of events, a series of causes.




K_ said:


> Having a second driver would only distract the first.


bs


----------



## Surel

Peloso said:


> It is a vast MINORITY really, also did you not know that such systems DO NOT exhonerate at all the driver from stopping at the red signal? But then again, running a red signal takes a few seconds of distraction, while in this case the loss of awareness lasted 30 seconds to one minute, go figure... if it is confirmed that ERMTS was not active, and ASFA does not give alarms inside the cabin, then it would be indeed a big blunder on RENFE-ADIF's part to leave such a delicate area unprotected. Nevertheless it is inexplicable how two trained drivers, who already worked on this line for so long, could miss the braking point by some 4 kilometers.


4 km at 200 km/h is just some 72 seconds. I guess that it can easily happen to lose concentration for one minute.


----------



## TimeOff

there is not such of a sudden change from ERTMS to ASFA... this guy drove at full speed 83km before derail... where is the sudden change of conditions?

and he did so 60 times before... 60, 60.... no more, no less....


----------



## GH1618

TimeOff said:


> ... where is the sudden change of conditions? ...


At the signals. The signal to reduce speed seems to be only 4 km before the curve. The exact nature of the signal and how it is communicated to the engineer is not clear to me, but I expect it will come out eventually.


----------



## Surel

Peloso said:


> Any coach driver on a highway must have a reaction time of one second and nobody even conceived that they could have some redundancy, go figure. They don't even have any aid in the cockpit duplicating road signals.


Have you ever missed your exit on the motorway? Without a GPS that tells you take the exit, its quite easy to happen, after a long monotonous drive. The same holds for the driver. Without a safety system, its quite easy for him to lose concentration and forget to break.

From what I have read here, it seems to me that there were more things amiss. It certainly is not only the responsibility of the driver.

1) If there was no safety system malfunctioning then the designers of the track have the same responsibility as the driver because they should have installed better safety system. A safety system that would prevent this is available.

2) If there was a safety system malfunction, then the responsibility lays with the designers of the safety system as well.

3) If the systems were installed and working, but were shut off, then the responsibility is also with the person that shut them off or decided about not using them.

4) Only if the only person that knew and decided about shutting them off was the driver, then he would be the only responsible. Otherwise, in all other cases, there are also other responsible.

5) There is also a variant in which the driver did break, but there was some sort of break malfunction. In this case, its not his fault. This possibility can't be yet excluded.


----------



## Spider48

mshoneyrose said:


> Anyone know the answer to this - it is standard or digital asfa in use on the line where the accident occurred?


Standard ASFA, according to this:
http://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/Alvia-Adif-Renfe-Asfa-Digital_0_158184435.html

Approximate translation:


> In the fateful stretch of four km separating the end of the infrastructure of the high speed line between Ourense and Santiago de Compostela, safety equipment installed on the track, two sets of beacons, are ASFA Analog, a technology developed by Renfe and Dimetronic in the 60s of last century. This information was confirmed on Saturday by an official spokesman of ADIF, who justified this fact by saying "The ASFA Digital beacons are being developed by companies Dimetronic and Indra and are not yet available."
> 
> ...sources indicate that no other section exists in the Spanish network in which trains are forced to drop speed from 200 to 80 kph. This drastic reduction in speed is further compounded by the fact that the operation is "disastrously badly signposted" with two ASFA Analog signals, a signpost and a book on board, leaving the the performance of drastic braking in the exclusive hands of the driver without offering any alternative technological support to prevent the fatal consequences of human error.
> 
> ...The President of ADIF, Gonzalo Ferre, speaking to Efe Agency, has maintained a completely different position. He notes that in the fateful four kilometers you cannot have anything other than ASFA analog signaling and also, this is more than adequate..."That is the role of the driver on the train", ie "to control speed" because "otherwise he would be a passenger"
> 
> Despite the official information provided by ADIF that ASFA Digital beacons are still under development, all sources have confirmed that this system is fully operational as a support system in all high-speed lines in the Mediterranean Corridor and in many parts of the line between Madrid and A Coruña, where the accident occurred.


This is also interesting, from here http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/etcs-not-operable-on-santiago-crash-train.html


> the final ETCS balise on the high-speed line, which is situated 4km from the crash site, would only inform the driver that he is exiting an ETCS section, that all automatic driving modes are disabled, and that manual driving mode is active. This means that if ETCS was in use the accident may still have occurred, and any train could in theory enter the 80km/h section at 200km/h. Drivers of Avant trains brake manually on the section where the accident occurred because the driver interface does not display a braking curve in the transition section between ETCS and Afsa.
> 
> The train passed Asfa distant signal E7 4km before the derailment, and E7 150m from the crash site.


Is it possible the driver had previously driven trains using ECTS on that route, and forgot there would be no final ECTS signal as his prompt to brake?


----------



## TimeOff

interesting, but still, how is possible he drove 60 times this same train through this same route...?


----------



## trainrover

Surel said:


> 4 km at 200 km/h is just some 72 seconds. I guess that it can easily happen to lose concentration for one minute.


72 seconds is quite a while ... had the engineer not been distracted, then what track/side condition exist that hadn't tipped him off that something was amiss?! Moreover, if this very approach, configuration itself outside the town is to be only temporary until the anticipated, forthcoming high-speed link, then why was no blaring trackside signage installed preceding the bend?

This crash itself also stinks ... planners, engineers, and ultimately the certifiers, licensors ought to be investigated.


----------



## Spider48

Also, it says


> The train passed Asfa distant signal E7 4km before the derailment, and E7 150m from the crash site.


I wonder if he somehow missed Asfa distant signal E7 and then at signal E7 he realised his mistake, and that was when he suddenly said he was doing 190 and was going to derail?


----------



## TimeOff

source

"También habla de la velocidad del tren: «A partir de Ourense tuve una sensación rara porque iba muy rápido. Justo antes de salir del túnel, el indicador ponía que íbamos a 210»."


in spanish but unless we start to doubt about the victims also, the train was speeding over 200kmh.... ASFA surely advertised him... so?


----------



## trainrover

I'm curious about the crashworthiness of those lightweight, articulated talgo coaches. I rode one in the USA and found no comfort travelling in it ... bloody things swung ALL over the place, coz changing coach proved to be pointless ...


----------



## GH1618

Spider48 said:


> Also, it says
> 
> I wonder if he somehow missed Asfa distant signal E7 and then at signal E7 he realised his mistake, and that was when he suddenly said he was doing 190 and was going to derail?


El Pais has reported that he acknowledged an audible warning at the first signal.


----------



## GH1618

trainrover said:


> I'm curious about the crashworthiness of those lightweight, articulated talgo coaches. I rode one in the USA and found no comfort travelling in it ... bloody things swung ALL over the place, coz changing coach proved to be pointless ...


I expect the condition of the track had more to do with the swaying than the weight of the car. That's why you need better track for faster operation.

As for crashworthiness, building a rail car to hold together in a 200 kph wreck wouldn't help the passengers much. You just don't want to derail at that speed and are better off investing in ways to prevent it, in my opinion.


----------



## TimeOff

source

_"*There were unconfirmed reports that the driver may have been talking on the phone or texting while he was at the controls in the moments before the accident at 8.42pm last Wednesday*"._


----------



## trainrover

GH1618 said:


> building a rail car to hold together in a 200 kph wreck wouldn't help the passengers


You must be joking, right?!?


----------



## trainrover

It's disturbing that the driver be arrested before analysis of the black box be performed. Isn't there any law (there) that could be exercised so as to prevent a potential suspect from leaving town, from leaving the country/union?

I gather that the ¾-to-2-hour response time by emergency medical services there is now being (harshly?) criticized.


----------



## xinxingren

trainrover said:


> You must be joking, right?!?


Nope. An indestructible steel box comes to a sudden stop. The passengers inside get mashed against the inside front wall. Possibly seat harness (not simple belt) and all rear facing seats may help, but imagine the fuss that would cause. Notice how flimsy modern motorcars are with the requirements for crumple zones and graceful disintegration.


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## 33Hz

If ADIF are claiming officially that digital beacons are still being developed then they are lying. This smells of trying to deflect blame.

It still doesn't answer why ERTMS wasn't installed up to the point where it could slow a train to 80km/h for the corner.


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## AlexNL

According to Dutch media, the driver has been sent home after questioning in court. However, his passport has been taken, he has to report at the courthouse every week and he is not allowed to drive trains for the time being.


----------



## OriK

trainrover said:


> It's disturbing that the driver be arrested before analysis of the black box be performed. Isn't there any law (there) that could be exercised so as to prevent a potential suspect from leaving town, from leaving the country/union?


He has been released with charges, that means that he will be free until the court decides if he is inocent or guilty or until evidences of risk of escape are found.

He was arrested in the hospital soon after the accident and he remained in the hospital monitored by the police until when he received the hospital discharge and was detained; later the police led him to the judge who decided to release him pending trial.

Edit: *AlexNL *is right according to Spanish media.


----------



## trainrover

Was bail posted, do you know :?

Edit: Never mind ^^ I've just read that the judge decided no bail necessary, plus the driver's charges are provisional.




xinxingren said:


> Nope


You ain't the one I'm asking


----------



## AlexNL

OriK said:


> Edit: AxelNL is right according to Spanish media.


Alex, not Axel. 

I'm curious about why the court took the decision to send him home for the time being. To me, it sounds like the court is not going to go along blindly with the blame-game being played by the media (a good thing!).

Appearantly, the driver declared that he was unable to brake as the train was approaching the curve. There are three braking systems on board the train, the chance of all of them failing is quite slim. Also, Renfe declared that the train had been in the maintenance workshop just before it entered service.


----------



## mshoneyrose

So now we know that 

"In the fateful stretch of four km separating the end of the infrastructure of the high speed line between Ourense and Santiago de Compostela, safety equipment installed on the track, two sets of beacons, are ASFA Analog, a technology developed by Renfe and Dimetronic in the 60s of last century. This information was confirmed on Saturday by an official spokesman of ADIF, who justified this fact by saying "The ASFA Digital beacons are being developed by companies Dimetronic and Indra and are not yet available."


The report on Friday in the International Rail Journal also said

IRJ has learned from a senior source at Renfe that while ETCS is operable on the Ourense – Santiago high-speed line, *class 730 sets of the type involved in the derailment operate exclusively on Asfa* on this route despite the fact that they are equipped with ETCS. ...The reasons for this have not yet been firmly established.

The train passed Asfa distant signal E7 4km before the derailment, and E7 150m from the crash site.

Both Asfa and the more advanced Asfa Digital are automatic train protection (ATP) systems, but the latter (AD) provides the driver with information on braking curves while *standard Asfa only triggers an emergency brake application if a signal has been passed at danger*. 

The operation of both systems is linked to the interlockings but not to speed limits, which must be observed by the driver at all times.
This means that when a route is set on a main line with signals showing a green aspect, no command is triggered onboard the train to adjust the speed. 

The accident could only have been prevented by the Asfa signal before the curve where the derailment occurred if the following signal, positioned on the approach to Santiago station, was at danger.

A second driver was onboard the train, seated in coach 7. In Spain trains normally operate with only one driver in the cab except in the event of an Asfa failure."

Conclusions?

The Avilia train fleet only operates with standard ASFA (although it is equipped with ETCS it does not use it. We do not know why this is).

The train was passing over a stretch of line with ASFA safety equipment which seems to have been of the older non digital type. This means that no braking signal is sent to the drivers cab unless there is a red signal ahead. If it is set at green no signal is sent. 

It has also been reported that no speeding alarm will be triggered unless the speed exceeds 200kph.


----------



## trainrover

Some couple on board the train have been now twice reported as being astonished that the in-coach speed monitor displayed 210KPH mere seconds before their crash.


----------



## RoSi™

I was watching this video all over again, and did not notice any sign to slow him down to 80km/h.

Around km 80 (where he should start to brake) there should(?) be a pre-warning that in 4 kilometers he needs to expect a speed of 80km/h. Also did not notice anything.

So what slows him down?

I would put a yellow sign of size 6x8 meters minimally and three in a row to warn drivers for slowing, especially when the curve is not secured with ETCS (ends in km 80), not saying that these trains not using it at all on this line.


----------



## OriK

AlexNL said:


> Alex, not Axel.
> 
> I'm curious about why the court took the decision to send him home for the time being. To me, it sounds like the court is not going to go along blindly with the blame-game being played by the media (a good thing!).
> 
> Appearantly, the driver declared that he was unable to brake as the train was approaching the curve. There are three braking systems on board the train, the chance of all of them failing is quite slim. Also, Renfe declared that the train had been in the maintenance workshop just before it entered service.


Ups! Sorry 

According to the Spanish media, the driver declared that he lose contentration and therefore didn't brake on time.

The driver has rejected to protest about the path or the state of the infrastructure.
-----
From what I've read: It seems that the train was running on ASFA the entire way...

The max speeds of the train are:

240Km/h on HSL
220Km/h on conventional lines
180Km/h on conventional lines when powered by diesel.

As this train was not allowed to use ERTMS on the previous stretch, it was using ASFA.

ASFA is a good but old system that requires the driver to take care of the speed of the train all the time and therefore the maximum speed allowed by the system is 200Km/h wich is considered to be a safe limit to allow the driver to read the signals (that's why the Albacete-Alicante HSL does still have a speed limit of 200Km/h).

ASFA trains are also able to detect if the driver is able to run the train (the driver have to press a button when requested by the train).

It seems but I'm not sure that the drivers are required to confirm that they have received the signals by pressing another button.


----------



## trainrover

As much as I love trains, had I myself been on the train as featured here passing the wreckage, I'd have been SO spooked:


^^ clickable...


----------



## GH1618

mshoneyrose said:


> It has also been reported that no speeding alarm will be triggered unless the speed exceeds 200kph.


That's not correct. It is the automatic emergency brake that is triggered if the speed exceeds 200 kph. It has been reported by some sources that the operator received audible warnings of excessive speed and acknowledged them.

I'll wait for an official report to document the events, however. There is too much conflicting information out there to be certain of what happened


----------



## Suburbanist

I still think 200km/h is too fast to warrant reading of critical signaling posted on poorly lit tunnels.


----------



## GH1618

RoSi™ said:


> So what slows him down?


The engineer would have a plan for the route which might refer to the distance markers. He might get speed indicators from the ASFA system. Also, I'm wondering if those chevron signs, similar to downward-pointing arrows, are a visual indication to slow down. These are just my guesses.


----------



## TimeOff

The engineer admited his culpability and says that there was not any problem with the infrastructure or security systems...


*El maquinista admite su “despiste”*

En su relato, que comenzó a las ocho de la tarde de ayer en los juzgados de Santiago, el conductor admitió su responsabilidad en el siniestro.* Reconoció que entró a 190 kilómetros por hora en la curva de Angrois, un tramo limitado a 80, por “un despiste” y que esa fue la razón del descarrilamiento. Evitó quejarse del trazado, las condiciones de la vía o el estado del tren*, según fuentes judiciales.


_"In his story, which began at eight o'clock yesterday afternoon at the courthouse in Santiago, *the driver admitted responsibility for the incident. He acknowledged that was overspeeding at 190 kilometers per hour in Angrois curve, a section limited to 80, because of "an oversight" and that was the reason for the derailment. Avoided to complain about the route, road conditions or status of the train*, according to judicial sources."_


*Spain train crash driver 'admits he was reckless'*

The driver of the train involved in Spain's worst rail disaster in almost 70 years was freed on bail on Sunday night after reportedly admitting to a judge that he had behaved recklessly.




the only thing that left to know is why... till now it seems he was texting at the phone.
his movil phone is in custody by the court.


----------



## K_

OriK said:


> ASFA is a good but old system that requires the driver to take care of the speed of the train all the time and therefore the maximum speed allowed by the system is 200Km/h wich is considered to be a safe limit to allow the driver to read the signals (that's why the Albacete-Alicante HSL does still have a speed limit of 200Km/h).


I think 200kph is to fast for the driver to reliable read trackside signals. And many railways seem to agree, as in quite a few countries Cab signalling is mandatory for a train to be permitted to run above 160kph...


----------



## Silly_Walks

So 80 people can die because one driver forgets how far along the track he already is. This is a clusterfuck of epic proportions. Let's hope this will lead to proper improvements in safety infrastructure so this can never happen again.


----------



## Ribarca

TimeOff said:


> the only thing that left to know is why... till now it seems he was texting at the phone.
> his movil phone is in custody by the court.


Let's wait the enquiry now. Remember the Tenerife plane crash. The flight were supposed to have been watching football. Turned out to be false in the end...


----------



## alserrod

If someone want to enter in the railways accident thread will read about all the network, responsible declarations and so on.

Despite it is not in English, any translator would be enough and there is a lot of information


----------



## alserrod

Last update. Driver faces to judge and says he thought he was in the last before curve. Speed was allowed to 220 until 400m before that point


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Do they rely on visual (landscape) cues to control speed? That would be extremely crazy. Especially with all the tunnels and short viaduts.


----------



## RoSi™

Suburbanist: That's what I said too. It is easy to get 'lost' on the monotonic 80km long track with lack of landscape. It was mentioned by other members here too.

Personally I think that having this curve unsecured by ETCS was only question of a time for this disaster to happen. Yet, it only took little more than a year.


----------



## alserrod

So do I. One and a half year....


----------



## RoSi™

Even if S730's are approved to use ETCS on Ourense - Santiago line, it might remind him 4 kilometers ahead of curve (that's where ETCS ends, and where he should start braking) that ETCS is switching off and all automatic systems are now disabled.

He might realize where he actually is (and start braking).

EDIT: The safest way to secure it now will be approve S730's ETCS as fast as possible and program the line that at the end of ETCS will be let's say 100km/h. Okay, it will add some time to travel time, but it will be much safer to approach Santiago.


----------



## alserrod

Last news!!!!!!

Call received some minutes ago from an officer was... An officer of a station to have a call about one hour later just to say how to operate there. 

It is not extrictly forbidden to use mobiles if driving but must be used only if emergencies, according to renfe hand out.

But... If you receive a call from a number you do not know, how do you know if it is an emergency or not?


Driver stated at first that he didn't use the mobile and said to judge. Now (all was recorded.and known by judge) he states that he didn't want to involve any other one.


----------



## alserrod

And..

interview to renfe chairman.
Nothing new but he recognises that installing ertms is a matter of passengers per km


----------



## OriK

alserrod said:


> Fresh news!!!
> It is absolutely forbidden to use a mobile if only one driver and train running.


I think it isn't forbidden as soon as it's not a personal call.


----------



## alserrod

True. Not forbidden if for en emergency call. But... If you receive a call in the business mobile from an internal number but doesn't know who's calling... How do you know if it is an emergency or not?


Btw. It was from a further station about how to operate there. The train was delayed and if on time, call had been in that curve more or less


----------



## OriK

alserrod said:


> True. Not forbidden if for en emergency call. But... If you receive a call in the business mobile from an internal number but doesn't know who's calling... How do you know if it is an emergency or not?
> 
> 
> Btw. It was from a further station about how to operate there. The train was delayed and if on time, call had been in that curve more or less


AFAIK It's allowed under any circunstance, as important operational instructions might be comunicated to the driver throught its phone.

They said that he received a call "minutes before the accident". ¿How many minutes? As 6 minutes before he was 20 km behind the point of the accident maybe the call is completely unrelated.


----------



## alserrod

I read about a couple of minutes but will check news again. It is known that after that paper checking noises are heard and later he makes a call to the management line centre when it crashes.

All noises were sent to judge as an evidence for trial.


----------



## Sunfuns

Has there been any talk about solving safety issues in this particular segment? As I understand part of the reason for the accident was a poorly designed route and/or insufficient safety equipment.


----------



## alserrod

Insufficent.

Asfa system only. Ertms partially but not installes in that train neither in that curve.

Estimated date to have full ertms 2018 (or later).


----------



## Sunfuns

And what will they do until then? Nothing at all?


----------



## alserrod

Police has identified renfe personnel who called the train.

It is also known that it was two minutes before the accident (what I do not know if starting or ending conversation two minutes before)


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> And what will they do until then? Nothing at all?


By the time, reducing speed to 30...............................................
..


----------



## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> By the time, reducing speed to 30...............................................
> ..


It doesn't solve the problem. Unless they fix the signaling problem, you still have the potential for the very same accident to repeat. Even if the speed limit was 15 km/h 

Maybe the reduction to 30 has to do with the physical investigation on the tracks.


----------



## Bipo

RoSi™ said:


> Question, to all they know spanish infrastructure well. What the signs on the picture means please?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is lot of varieties of the bottom sign alongside track, do we have some overiew, what they all means? Thanks...


The upper signal is just a milestone (kilometer 84 from Orense).

The other indicates that the engineer can open the air ports to allow the fresh air to enter the cabin after exit the tunnel


----------



## TimeOff

There was an auditor of RENFE in the train in that moment, he was who called the engineer minutes before the accident. The call ended just seconds before the accident.

This kind of calls can be made solely in the case of an emergency, but in any case because of their own norms, the engineer should not pick up the phone.

*"La única posibilidad de comunicación entre interventores y maquinistas en pleno viaje es el teléfono móvil de empresa, pero solo se debe utilizar en caso de emergencia, según el manual de uso de los portátiles que tiene en vigor Renfe. En los Alvia, el interventor no puede acceder a la cabina del piloto porque está prohibido. Es peligroso atravesar el vagón en el que se ubican los motores, y que separa la cabina del resto del vehículo.

El conductor Francisco José Garzón, en cualquier caso, no debía haber contestado la llamada clave, porque estaba en plena ruta, según las propias normas internas."*

source


----------



## alserrod

Interventor shouls be translated as Conductor or so. In these trains is quite difficult to approach and if there is an emergency, he can use the mobile (btw I do not know if he is one of the victims but nothing said about him).

Last call was from a station near La Corunna where this train is stopping since july. They wanted to say how to operate because it calls there being night and dark, platforms are not long and one of them require passengers to cross tracks walking with baggage.

The following phone call was to the management centre. And while... The accident


----------



## alserrod

Did you find the Spanish thread about the accident?


----------



## TimeOff

^^ no, pls put the link to that thread..


btw *Antonio Martín Marugán* (the auditor) and the other responsible of this disaster... not the main one, but yeah it was a double human failure.


----------



## alserrod

Last update...

Call received about how to stop in a station wasn't made by renfe officers nor station personnel but.... From train supervisor (train conductor). He is alive and has recognised it.

That could be the reason why at first, driver declared he didn't use the mobile. Seems he wanted to help his colleague.

If someone search information in Spanish... Be awared that "Conductor" in Spanish doesn't mean the same word but "driver".


----------



## alserrod

I'm afraid... I cannot link threads with a mobile. If a Spanish forumer enters, maybe could help.
Nevertheless, it is a sticky thread. Just search for the most frequent Spanish threads. It must have the word "accidentes"


----------



## OriK

^^ this is the link: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=707928

Go to the last pages as it's a generic post for accidents.


----------



## 63784

alserrod said:


> True. They are entitled to not declare anything either facing to the judge.
> 
> What I do not know is about if he said "no" or kept in silence.
> 
> I think he kept in silence facing the judge but I do not know with police officers.


Not only that, but according to Spanish law, if you are indicted (and the driver was), *you are entitled to lie if you want to*. On the other hand, if you are just a witness, lying *is *an offense.

Best wishes.


----------



## Ribarca

So they talked for almost two two minutes up to seconds before the derailment.

It seems that indeed this did help to distract the driver. But should it be possible that a distraction can cause a disaster. I think not. Having no good security system and a lack of good signaling seem to have an equal share of blame.


----------



## M-NL

According to Dutch media the driver has admitted to receiving 3 warnings (the article doesn't mention it, but by ASFA I guess) in the 2 minutes before the crash. According to the black box of the train the last one was 250m before the entering the curve at which moment the train travelled at 195 km/h.
Okay, talking on the phone can be distracting, but he DID manage to push the ASFA confirm button at every warning, but why didn't he actually brake?


----------



## trainrover

A prominent scientist reported ages ago that driving and talking on a telephone never mix, hands-free or not ... probably applies to train driving too.


----------



## OriK

M-NL said:


> According to Dutch media the driver has admitted to receiving 3 warnings (the article doesn't mention it, but by ASFA I guess) in the 2 minutes before the crash. According to the black box of the train the last one was 250m before the entering the curve at which moment the train travelled at 195 km/h.
> Okay, talking on the phone can be distracting, but he DID manage to push the ASFA confirm button at every warning, but why didn't he actually brake?


One of them was a "free way" alarm that doesn't have to be acknowledged but wich should have been a signal for the driver that the curve was near.

I don't know about the others... (I've heard about 2 warnings).

Here there is a reconstruction of the accident, in Spanish:
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/...asta-11-segundos-antes-del-accidente/1971712/


----------



## RoSi™

So, did ASFA warn him to slow down?


----------



## K_

RoSi™ said:


> So, did ASFA warn him to slow down?


More importantly: Why was there no system in place that forced the train to slow down...


----------



## Suburbanist

I'm finding it difficult to follow the investigation, especially considering that multiple translations of occupations have been used. I've read different reports of train driver calling the dispatcher, station manager calling the train driver, train conductor _(meaning: an auxiliary employee who stays in the train, often checking tickets and giving the driver the 'platform clear' sign for the driver to proceed closing doors_) calling train driver?

Could someone explain me who called whom on the phone during that train ride preceding the accident?


----------



## RoSi™

K_ said:


> More importantly: Why was there no system in place that forced the train to slow down...


Exactly! That's what I was asking few posts earlier. But media kidding the information now, that he received and acknowledged three signals to slow him down. Where from? From ASFA? That system does not care about speeds at all. ETCS should protect the most critical part of this track. It didn't. Moreover, S730s should be certified to use it (as soon as possible).



Suburbanist said:


> Could someone explain me who called whom on the phone during that train ride preceding the accident?


It was a ticket inspector calling the driver on company mobile phone (as in-train telephone was down(?)) to ask which platform they gonna call at second to last station (forget the name) of route before Ferrol. All this because he want to help the family with children to get easier of the platform/station.

At least that is what i understand from all that informations that are coming from Spain.


----------



## alserrod

Civil works ministry is to make a consideration about all lines and its safety (even where asfa doesn't exist)


----------



## RoSi™

alserrod said:


> Civil works ministry is to make a consideration about all lines and its safety (even where asfa doesn't exist)


Hope that Santiago's curve will be first to consider.


----------



## trainrover

The DR is suing the driver.


----------



## 437.001

trainrover said:


> The DR is suing the driver.


Maybe it´s so obvious that I don´t see it, but what is the DR? :?


----------



## joseph1951

For what I've read so far the train was travelling at 210/190 km with a a slown doiwn to 80 km/h in about 4km section. 

The train had to pass from one high speed section where the train speed was controlled by an advance electronic system to another section where the train control system seems to be inadequate or primitive.

The driver had only 60-80 seconds to intervene with little or no allowance for mistakes.


Perhaps would have been different if the train had two three sections to slow down from 190/210 to 150-120 km/h and then to 80 km/h.

Perhaps the safety measures implemented on the last section of the line were inadequate.


----------



## FlyingRob

RoSi™;105825889 said:


> So, did ASFA warn him to slow down?


As far as my limited knowledge about details on train safety systems in Spain (I work in the aviation industry), ASFA does not issue warnings... It's only a red/green system that will stop (not slow down) the train if you overrun a beacon linked to a stop signal or driving faster than 200Km/h.

The warnings he received were plain "clear signal" warnings that indicated the tracks selected ahead (A Grandeira detour).

Apparently they have installed such beacons now in that particular curve limiting the speed at 30Km/h (so it can be activated by overspeed, but it will not warn in forehand, just stop the train if overrun). Several media reports refer (El Pais: Train accident forces automatic braking installation in risky track sections)

Mi opinion: The "safety system" approach would definetly have included this in the original design, humans make mistakes and relying completely on the driver's awarenes is unsafe.

Regards,
Robert


----------



## RoSi™

As translated from here by translator:

ADIF technicians have placed three beacons ASFA system with staggered speed limitations. The first (accompanied by a poster installed in the track) is at km 79.769, and limits the speed to 160 km / hour. Another beacon placed at km 81/669 (about three miles before the crash), with its accompanying poster, limits the speed to 30 km / hour, and the latter, in turn, is protected by another previous mark (called notice), approximately 300 meters, which limits the speed to 60 km / hour. If the train exceeds the speed limit, the ASFA system will trip and automatically brake the train, avoiding accidents such as occurred on July 24.

*So how did they manage to check/limit the speed with ASFA system.*


----------



## joseph1951

FlyingRob said:


> As far as my limited knowledge about details on train safety systems in Spain (I work in the aviation industry),* ASFA does not issue warnings... It's only a red/green system that will stop (not slow down) the train if you overrun a beacon linked to a stop signal or driving faster than 200Km/*h.
> 
> The warnings he received were plain "clear signal" warnings that indicated the tracks selected ahead (A Grandeira detour).
> 
> *Apparently they have installed such beacons now in that particular curve limiting the speed at 30Km/h (so it can be activated by overspeed, but it will not warn in forehand, just stop the train if overrun*). Several media reports refer (El Pais: Train accident forces automatic braking installation in risky track sections)
> 
> 1-
> Mi opinion: *The "safety system" approach would definetly have included this in the original design, humans make mistakes and relying completely on the driver's awarenes is unsafe.*Regards,
> Robert


1-
I agree.


----------



## alserrod

joseph1951 said:


> For what I've read so far the train was travelling at 210/190 km with a a slown doiwn to 80 km/h in about 4km section.
> 
> The train had to pass from one high speed section where the train speed was controlled by an advance electronic system to another section where the train control system seems to be inadequate or primitive.
> 
> The driver had only 60-80 seconds to intervene with little or no allowance for mistakes.
> 
> Perhaps would have been different if the train had two three sections to slow down from 190/210 to 150-120 km/h and then to 80 km/h.
> 
> Perhaps the safety measures implemented on the last section of the line were inadequate.


To be exactly... 200 to 80 (not able to run over that speed with this system)

Yesterday the link to the Spanish thread was posted. Today a new forumer wrote a full technical post about analogic asfa, digital asfa and ertms because he works in the business.

I invite you to enter and read even with any online translator. It could be one of the most revealing post.


In any case... As everyone can see... I live in Zaragoza. Look this station and the HSL to Madrid. It has some narrow curves and trains change from 300 (not 200 but 300) to 70 in a couple of km. Huge traffic and no incidents since 2003 when was opened.
But.... It has ertms!!!!!!


----------



## RoSi™

alserrod said:


> But.... It has ertms!!!!!!


That is exactly why it has no incident indeed.


----------



## alserrod

Yeah and we have, indeed, a short stretch of a one way only track.... But with ertms (yes, for several km all Madrid-Barcelona trains and some more run on a one way track)

I really invite you to see my city in google maps and compare curves.
Furthermore, message about asfa and ertms is quite interesting.
I am sorry, i am with a mobile and cannot link but some messages above you'll find the link


----------



## Rayancito

alserrod said:


> They could... But after a great deal of years with no official links neither integration, even within HS trains or so, they began offering it... and step by step they are increasing these services.
> 
> I know that a lot of things are yet to be done, but after doing nothing, today's better.


 I agree. A good example of the improvement in integration is the regional trains in Andalucia, before they used to stop in the old station of Antequera, since some months ago they used instead Antequera Santa Ana, a Station of The Malaga Madrid High Speed Line, and they sell combined tickets to Madrid, therefore people of several stations along the way from Sevilla to Almeria have now much more convinient services to go to Madrid.


----------



## K_

alserrod said:


> They could... But after a great deal of years with no official links neither integration, even within HS trains or so, they began offering it... and step by step they are increasing these services.
> 
> I know that a lot of things are yet to be done, but after doing nothing, today's better.


Which still begs the question why they need so much time to get something done that other railways have been doing for near to two centuries...

An example of missed opportunities: the night train from Barcelona too Granada arrives there at a time where there is no onward travel for three hours. So for people wishing to go to other places in Andalusia it is worthless. No wonder those trains keep losing money...


----------



## alserrod

Not all is cool, I agree. As you will know, commuter trains are included in the long distance tickets.

In my city, once I made calculations about long distance arrivals and next commuter train available to city centre. Only a third part had a train within 20 minutes. The maximum time I would accept waiting prior to take the bus (or taxi or asking someone to call you to station)

The worst side was when I checked that one commuter had passed 5 minutes before (empty) and had to wait about 40 for next one.

I know commuter services have improved but they could better keep on that way


----------



## city_thing

Does anyone know when the direct High Speed train from Paris to Barcelona will open? At the moment you have to change at Figueres - I plan on getting the train from Paris to Barcelona next year and am hoping I won't have to change.


----------



## SAS 16

^^ Some whispering points at october this year however this is not a 100% sure fact and it can change


----------



## Vaud

It's very disappointing. Everyone was saying it should've been operational already by April this year, then Geneva by around September, now it's October for Paris and... well, then I guess Geneva won't be operational until 1st or 2nd quarter 2014! but the direct rail link got already cancelled last year in anticipation for the TGV hno:


----------



## Sunfuns

Once they've solved their certification and signalling issues it could probably all happen at once. The desire is there and the line has been finished...


----------



## Silly_Walks

Sunfuns said:


> Once they've solved their certification and signalling issues it could probably all happen at once. The desire is there and the line has been finished...


Have the lack of power issues been solved on the Spanish side?


----------



## 437.001

Silly_Walks said:


> Have the lack of power issues been solved on the Spanish side?


Not yet. It should be by 2014, when the new electric line from Baixas (France) to Bescanó (Spain) will be finished.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*.
Two pics of the works at around Vilavella (sector Pedralba-Porto). 
That´s in the Ourense province, but near the limit with the Zamora province.



zoltan said:


> Photos by forumer *geotecnico*.


----------



## Sunfuns

Things moving along I see... By the way are all major engineering structures (bridges, viaducts, tunnels) on this line already under construction or are some still only on paper?


----------



## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL*.
Photos of the area near Venta de Baños, where there are two viaducts under construction over river Pisuerga, and where there´s also the junction that will allow trains to run from Leon (and further into Asturias or Galicia along the classic line through Ponferrada) to Burgos (and further into the Basque Country, and also Barcelona via Saragossa and Navarre).

_[note: I´ve translated all the text by *jotaerre* into English]_



jotaerre said:


> I start at the same crop that I visited in spring, which showed then a deep green colour of the cereal. On my visit of July the 2nd, that crop had turned yellow.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking backwards we can see the conveyor belt of the cement plant. For some reason, it reminded me of the Orihuela viaduct and the pipe _[of the Tajo-Segura canal]_.
> 
> 
> 
> Bleeding tree! :bleep:
> 
> There was no other way to find a better cropping.
> There were people working, and on the other hand, there were constraints to avoid the tree.
> 
> 
> 
> An irrigation canal keeps you from getting closer to the river.
> 
> 
> 
> The irrigation canal would be just at the bottom of this pic:
> 
> 
> 
> On the Burgos side of the viaduct, the pillars have been built on a land thet has been formed precisely for the work. The width of the river spanned to the tres on the other side:
> 
> 
> 
> The unusual width of the river is caused by a dam further down.
> 
> 
> 
> In hindsight, on the right of the tres we can see the pérgola through which one of the Palencia-Burgos tracks would cross overthe two Valladolid-Burgos tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> Zooming:
> 
> 
> 
> There are different types of pillars. The ones on land are rectangular, and the ones on the river bed, cyllindric.
> In hindsight, we can tell the line of the Palencia-Burgos tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> As I got away from the place I looked for different perspectives of the works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next, I moved till the vertex of the by-pass on the Palencia side.
> The already known artificial Villamuriel tunnel -aka Vallelongos-, through which the Valladolid-Palencia tracks will be. On top will be one of the Palencia-Burgos tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> THere are works at the start of the Palencia-Burgos viaduct, which means a strong limitation of movement, since that crop was free, and now it´s been fenced.
> 
> 
> 
> If instead of looking towards the tunnel we look on the opposite sense (towards Venta de Baños) we can see the platform already finished and on the left, the fence that limits the movement.
> 
> 
> 
> Now all new tunnels have a platform perfectly adapted for a posible evacuation of a train.
> 
> 
> 
> On the left we can tell the tunnel mouth, and on the right the junction with the Burgos future track. The fence on both sides will keep people out from there, from now on.
> 
> 
> 
> Located nearly at the vertex of the two fences, we can see the platform coming from Venta de baños nearly entering the tunnel (on the right).
> 
> 
> 
> Turning a little to the left, the fence of the Palencia-Burgos platform with the structure that will enable wildlife to abandon the railway premises.
> 
> 
> 
> The white and red structures mark the point at which the Palencia-Burgos viaduct would start.
> 
> 
> 
> By now, and up until we don´t see the works advance, a good take isn´t posible. The viaduct will be in a bend, ant it will follow that "line" in hindsight.
> 
> 
> 
> Zooming, and unaware of the results we can see on the far left the point at which the Palencia-Burgos will end. On the right of the pile machine we can tell that they´ve already started with the piles of this viaduct. Mid-height and from left to right (or right to left) we can tell the tracks of the Valladolid-Burgos classic line.
> 
> 
> 
> To the left, Palencia. To the right, Burgos.
> 
> 
> 
> The viaduct will cross over A-62 motorway, road N-620, the Madrid-Hendaye classic line, and river Pisuerga.
> 
> 
> 
> From the Palencia side, view with zoom of the abutment of the other viaduct (Valladolid-Burgos), on the Burgos side of it.
> 
> 
> 
> In this hodge-podge pic (we can even see a frigorific lorry on the motorway) we can tell that between the motorway and the road, the shallow foundations are already there, so work on the pillars is able to be started.
> 
> 
> 
> When I was getting out on the road to leave, I saw this (to me) unknown tractor moving wagons at the cement plant.
> 
> 
> 
> The Alvia Irun (and Bilbao) to Madridm on its way to Valladolid.
> 
> 
> 
> Halt at the point where the viaduct will cross over the road, classic railway and river. There´s nothing visible.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking opposite (towards Palencia) we can see the works.
> 
> 
> 
> This pic´s made from the road. The traffic barrier belongs to the motorway.
> 
> 
> 
> Between the road and the motorway we can see this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And right home from there. But just before, an exit from the motorway to see the culverts that forcé the trains to run at 30-80-30 km/h at a point where they should be running at 160 km/h.
> 
> 
> 
> In one of them, some works seemed to be going on.
> 
> 
> 
> And that´s all I saw on July 2, 2013


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Things moving along I see... By the way are all major engineering structures (bridges, viaducts, tunnels) on this line already under construction or are some still only on paper?


Most of it is under construction, I´d say around 95% is, but not all yet.


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## 437.001

*Madrid Chamartín-Madrid Atocha connection HSL*.

A pic of the tunnel between these two stations.
It is rather important that this tunnel opens, since Alvia through services will cut travel time by almost an hour.
It´s not really a high-speed tunnel though, since both stations are not far away enough, one from each other.



neuromancer said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*.
Pictures of the works at the Zamora-Pedralba section (between Zamora and Ourense).



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> A viaduct:





CARBALOSIELLA said:


> Another viaduct:


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## 437.001

*La Encina-Xàtiva-Valencia HSL*

Pictures taken near La Font de la Figuera, there was a bit of fog:



RDaneel said:


> Near Santa Bárbara tunnel, very close to La Font de la Figuera.
> Reconstruction works of the old La Encina-Xàtiva classic line between La Font de la Figuera and Moixent.
> If you have a good eye, you´ll tell the piles of monobloc sleepers, at one side of the platform:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> La Font de la Figuera junction, general views:
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> 
> In detail, a view of the state of the platform works:
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> 
> The HSL towards La Encina junction:
> 
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> 
> 
> The old Mariaga tunnel in hindsight, the old classic line won´t be reconstructed in that sector:
> 
> 
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> 
> Future La Teja junction and in hindsight the Aguaverde junction:
> 
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> 
> 
> And to finish, the viaducts at La Oliva junction, a class 449 EMU on a regional Alicante-Ciudad Real passing by, and the crossing of one of the branches of the triangle under the Alicante main line:


----------



## 437.001

*Albacete-Alicante HSL*.
Pictures of *Villena-Alta Velocidad* station.



FanSSC said:


>





FanSSC said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*.
Pictures of the works between Zamora and Pedralba de la Pradería, in the Zamora province (Castile and Leon):



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> A scheme of the photographed área:





CARBALOSIELLA said:


>





Pictures of the works between Pedralba de la Pradería and Vilavella, in the Ourense province (Galicia).



Agüelo said:


>


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## AlexNL

I really like the architecture and design of the Villena Alta Velocidad station: it's modern, clean, transparent, and welcoming. It would be better without the X-ray scanners and all that, but I understand why they're there.

What I find quite fascinating is that there is nothing which resembles Renfe until you get to the ticket vending machines. Over here, the NS branding is found on every station (even on stations not served by NS anymore), and pretty much the same goes for Germany. In France, SNCF is everywhere too (even on bus stops).


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## OriK

^^ You can find traces of Renfe in older stations but the new ones are as operator neutral as possible.

The only exception are the cercanías stations wich are owned by Adif but managed by Renfe following a colaboration agreement... still you can see the Cercanías branding but not much renfe branding...


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## AlexNL

Why have Class 490 trains been withdrawn? Is it a temporary measure or permanent withdrawel from service?


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## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> Why have Class 490 trains been withdrawn?


Fissures (is that the correct technical English word? :?) in bogies.



> Is it a temporary measure or permanent withdrawal from service?


We don´t know yet.


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## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> Fissures in bogies.


Ah...

Sounds like the ICE-T a couple of years ago, they've had their axles replaced and are circulating again.


> We don´t know yet.


I guess those trains will be put back in service with the bogies replaced.

Renfe Integria could contact Dutch Railways, we have some high speed trains that we're no longer using, maybe Integria can reuse the bogies :lol:


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## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> Ah...
> 
> Sounds like the ICE-T a couple of years ago, they've had their axles replaced and are circulating again.


Class 490 are similar to the Portuguese Alfa Pendular, which had the same problem...



> I guess those trains will be put back in service with the bogies replaced.
> 
> Renfe Integria could contact Dutch Railways, we have some high speed trains that we're no longer using, *maybe Integria can reuse the bogies *:lol:


:badnews:


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*.

Pictures in Zamora station (1st) and between Zamora and La Hiniesta (2nd).
They´re moving the classic line a bit to make room for the HSL tracks.



zoltan said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Extremadura(-Lisbon) HSL*.

HSL platform between Cáceres and Aldea del Cano (south of Cáceres):


Manamer said:


>


There is a missing part in these works ^^, at a place where the classic line cuts the HSL. Here: 



>


Section between Cáceres and Plasencia (north of Cáceres).
The 'smaller' viaduct at Cañaveral, just next to the bigger one, posted some time ago:



Manamer said:


>


Location of the viaduct (it´s number one): ^^



Manamer said:


>


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## Sunfuns

Is opening of any new stretches (either high speed or classical), finishing of major station renovations, electrification etc. expected to happen next year? 

If I remember correctly from the discussion earlier this year most "major events" were forecast for 2015/2016 or later. But perhaps something after all?


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## Sunfuns

And thanks a lot for keeping us informed here. Of course there are very active Spanish threads, but it's a lot more effort to find things there for those of us who don't speak the language.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Is opening of any new stretches (either high speed or classical), finishing of major station renovations, electrification etc. expected to happen next year?
> 
> If I remember correctly from the discussion earlier this year most "major events" were forecast for 2015/2016 or later. But perhaps something after all?


Next year, if not before, we should get the direct Spain-France TGV and AVE services, too... or maybe not, who knows. :|

For the rest, I´d say 2015 for the following stretches:

-*HSL La Encina (Villena)-Xativa-Valencia* (which would cut travel time in half between Valencia and Alicante for Euromed services, which by then would likely be rechristened as Alvia. Works have halted lately though).

-*HSL Olmedo junction-Zamora* (which would mean cutting the travel time by at least 30min on the Madrid-Galicia services).

-*HSL Antequera Santa Ana-Granada* (except the Loja sector, which would be done via the classic line. It seems it´s been given priority since there are EU funds at stake).

And *maybe* (only *maybe*):

-*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon/Burgos* (definitely not sure, maybe only the Leon branch, or maybe only Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia on the Leon branch).

-*Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería junction* (not sure, but works there are speeding up quite a bit lately. If that were true then the Madrid-Galicia services would cut travel time for an extra 45min or so).

Anyway, all of this is just pure crystal-ball gazing. :sly::cripes:

For the rest, I´ll be happy to answer at the *SPAIN | Railways* thread. Just put the same question.



Sunfuns said:


> And thanks a lot for keeping us informed here. Of course there are very active Spanish threads, but it's a lot more effort to find things there for those of us who don't speak the language.


Don´t mention.


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Next year, if not before, we should get the direct Spain-France TGV and AVE services, too... or maybe not, who knows. :|


Yeah sure, one hopes that at least next year... Did Renfe/SNCF eventually give a meaningful explanations about what the problem really is? I've heard something about incompatibility of signalling systems. 



437.001 said:


> -*HSL Antequera Santa Ana-Granada* (except the Loja sector, which would be done via the classic line. It seems it´s been given priority since there are EU funds at stake).


But the entire thing will be in standard gauge, correct? 




437.001 said:


> -*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon/Burgos* (definitely not sure, maybe only the Leon branch, or maybe only Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia on the Leon branch).


Is that the section containing Pajares base tunnel?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Yeah sure, one hopes that at least next year... Did Renfe/SNCF eventually give a meaningful explanations about what the problem really is? I've heard something about incompatibility of signalling systems.


Total secrecy on both sides of the border. hno::dunno:

For what we know, the AVE and TGV keep on doing their homologation tests, precisely this week the TGV 802 (of the 2N2 3UH Euroduplex class), was spotted at quarter to midnight at Barcelona-Sants station by another forumer. 

Just wait and see, it´s our only choice. :colbert:



> But the entire thing will be in standard gauge, correct?


Correct, they´re going to electrify the Bobadilla-Granada classic line in that sector, and put a third rail in the sections that the AVE will use too. 
Luckily, that line is diesel. 



> Is that the section containing Pajares base tunnel?


No.

Good question. :|


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## Sunfuns

I guess my Spanish geography still needs improving... :lol:


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I guess my Spanish geography still needs improving... :lol:


No, you were not that wrong (that´s north of Leon, the Pajares tunnel, and it´s officially expected to have a partial opening by 2015... officially :|). 

I was actually thinking aloud, in fact (well, writing aloud).

The Pajares base tunnel project is a big ****-up, I doubt it will open in 2015. :sly:


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## Sunfuns

As far as tunnel ****-ups go there is some stiff competition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallandsås_Tunnel

I hope you don't come close to that one...


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> As far as tunnel ****-ups go you there is some stiff competition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallandsås_Tunnel
> 
> I hope you don't come close to that one...


:doh: ^^ As far as I know, there are no cancer things involved... :sleepy:

But *YES*, we do come close. :gaah:

It was started in 2005, both tubes were bored by 2009.
The main Pajares tunnel is 24,600 m long, not counting other tunnels on the new line (12 more tunnels, for a total length of 15,815m).
That makes a total of 40,415 m of tunnels (and I´m counting them all as single-tube, which is NOT the case).

One of the tubes in the main Pajares tunnel is full of water, and as a result, rivers, wells and sources on the south side of the tunnel (which used to flow into Castile & Leon and then Portugal) have dried or flow much less than they used to, while all that water flows now into Asturias and the Atlantic.

Besides, there is a serious problem with a landslide on a trench at Campomanes (between the northern mouth of the tunnel and Pola de Lena station, where it meets the classic line).

By now, the costs have passed €3.2 billion. :rant::madwife:

By 2015 (that is, if they solve the landslide problem, which is not easy), the Pajares new line would open with only one tube in operation (the dry one), and third rail.
But I don´t believe it.


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## OriK

^^ well, after reading about Hallandsås tunnel... the Pajares tunnel seems really cheap... 

1.2 billion € for a less than 9 kilomenters tunnel!

How much might cost a comparable tunnel in Spain?


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## 437.001

It depends, the cost of everything is higher in Sweden.

And that does not make the Pajares failure a success. Because it is a failure.


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## 437.001

*Basque 'Y' HSL*.

The Deba viaduct, near Bergara (don´t know which branch of the 'Y' is this):



BPT said:


> Same picture in higher resolution here:
> 
> http://www.4shared.com/download/RXGE1C5s/20130927_Viaducto_DEBA_1.jpg


Photos of the Astepe and Euba (Amorebieta) viaducts (section Bergara-Bilbao):



jon karla said:


>


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## SAS 16

http://www.abc.es/economia/20130930/abci-trenes-avioones-viajeros-201309272134.html

MAD BCN rail vs plane rises to 57 % in july an MAD SEVILLE is around 90 %


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## Homem

Migration from one mode of transport to another seems to take too much time in Spain. I think after 5 years of operation rail vs plane should be higher between Madrid and Barcelona.
Naturally, the ridiculous prices charged by the RENFE on the AVE connections were a major obstacle. I hope soon the balance between MAD and BCN will become normal (+- 75/80% for rail)


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## Suburbanist

^^ Does that statistic include air passengers who are only making a flight connection in either city?

I also think Iberia put some fast-turn-on flights on that route, where you only need to show up 25 min in advance if you don't have luggage.


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## SAS 16

Homem said:


> Migration from one mode of transport to another seems to take too much time in Spain. I think after 5 years of operation rail vs plane should be higher between Madrid and Barcelona.
> Naturally, the ridiculous prices charged by the RENFE on the AVE connections were a major obstacle. I hope soon the balance between MAD and BCN will become normal (+- 75/80% for rail)


 You are right in the MAD BCN door to door case because as suburbanist said it has a very hard competition from planes. However in the rest of spain when new lines were opened it didnt took to much time to kill the plane (valencia,alicante,zaragoza,malaga)


> Does that statistic include air passengers who are only making a flight connection in either city?


I have no idea:dunno:


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## Sunfuns

Both Madrid and Barcelona are major airports, probably not that many people who are flying from one to another for onward travel. 

The difference between Seville and Barcelona routes must come from tougher competition and more recent opening. Is it perhaps easier to get to airport in Barcelona? Travel time from Madrid is almost identical to both cities.


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## SAS 16

> The difference between Seville and Barcelona routes must come from tougher competition and more recent opening.


True indeed. Before new fare system travelling by HSR Madrid Barcelona was way *too *expensive with fares going to more than 140-180 EUR for go and return with limited discounts which were hard to catch. Plane used to cost around 60+EUR go and return. Now if you check with sometime in advance the AVE tickects can be around 64 to 80 EUR g/r which is very apealling.



> Is it perhaps easier to get to airport in Barcelona?


Hard? not so much but there is no metro and its easier to get to the train station


> Travel time from Madrid is almost identical to both cities.


I think one of the main issues here beside the price and the competition from air is that MAD SEV has 21 years of operation in its backs and it has reached maturirty like you said


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Both Madrid and Barcelona are major airports, probably not that many people who are flying from one to another for onward travel.


Yes there are. 
Both airports (Madrid-Barajas and Barcelona-El Prat) have different traffics.
Madrid is the major European hub for South America, which Barcelona isn´t.
Plenty of trips (like say, Barcelona-Santiago de Chile) have to be done via Madrid (or had to, till very recent times). 



> The difference between Seville and Barcelona routes must come from tougher competition and more recent opening. Is it perhaps easier to get to airport in Barcelona?


Yes. 



> Travel time from Madrid is almost identical to both cities.


The difference is not the plane, it´s the car.
It is easier (and shorter) to drive from Seville to Madrid than from Barcelona to Madrid.
In both cases the AVE is competitive with the road, but in the case of Barcelona-Madrid the plane is still practical for those going to northern Madrid business areas, or to another country (mainly South America, but also other destinations).


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL/Vigo-Santiago upgraded line*.
*Vigo-Urzáiz station*.

A photo of the works:



zoltan said:


>


And three renders of the way it should theoretically look:



neuromancer said:


>





zoltan said:


>


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## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Delicias station*.

An AVE from Madrid-Atocha arriving at Zaragoza, today at 18:28, 20 minutes late.



Adpg said:


>


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## Sunfuns

Is being late very unusual? It should be as the tracks are not shared with freight and commuter trains.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Is being late very unusual? It should be as the tracks are not shared with freight and commuter trains.


It is unusual, yes.


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## Manamer

Sunfuns said:


> Is being late very unusual? It should be as the tracks are not shared with freight and commuter trains.


As 437.001 said, it's not usual. In fact, if a train arrives 5 minutes late or more in Madrid-Sevilla HSL all passengers will have a 100% ticket refund. 

Rest of spanish HSL lines:

>15 minutes late: 50% refund.
>30 minutes late: 100% refund.


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## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> Is being late very unusual? It should be as the tracks are not shared with freight and commuter trains.


It is unusual either being late, either so many passengers in Zaragoza station. It is a station that receives a lot of passengers but I do not remember ever a double train calling at Zaragoza and many people getting off.

The reason is that this week (starting tomorrow and finishing on Sunday 13th) Zaragoza has major days (main day is Saturday 12th) and a lot of people try to stay in the city. Sometimes someone has relatives or friends and try to make a visit. Other times there are people from this city who live away and within all the weekends that come home, these ones are some of them.

For next weekend several Madrid-Zaragoza special trains have been scheduled and already full.


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## 437.001

^^ Yes... like 75,000 tickets sold or something like that already, for El Pilar festival in Zaragoza. :yes:


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## K_

437.001 said:


> And three renders of the way it should theoretically look...


Who's the architect of the new Vigo station? The style reminds me of Daniel Liebeskind.


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## Reivajar

K_ said:


> Who's the architect of the new Vigo station? The style reminds me of Daniel Liebeskind.


Thom Mayne / Morphosis

http://morphopedia.com/projects/vialia-vigo


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## Adpg

AVE from Barcelona Sants arriving at Zaragoza Delicias destination Madrid Puerta de Atocha.


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## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> Is being late very unusual? It should be as the tracks are not shared with freight and commuter trains.


http://www.elmundo.es/mundodinero/2010/11/09/economia/1289304399.html

According to this El Mundo article (Europa press) from October 2010, AVE services are the second most on time HSR service in the world after the Japanese Shinkansen.

Trains on time:

* Shinkansen 99%
* AVE 98,5%
* KTX 93,7%
* TGV 92,5%
* Eurostar 91,6%
* Italian HSR 87%
* German HSR 79%


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## chornedsnorkack

gincan said:


> http://www.elmundo.es/mundodinero/2010/11/09/economia/1289304399.html
> 
> According to this El Mundo article (Europa press) from October 2010, AVE services are the second most on time HSR service in the world after the Japanese Shinkansen.
> 
> Trains on time:
> 
> * Shinkansen 99%
> * AVE 98,5%
> * KTX 93,7%
> * TGV 92,5%
> * Eurostar 91,6%
> * Italian HSR 87%
> * German HSR 79%


Where is CRH?


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## Suburbanist

I've read reports that certain AVE services have up to 15 minutes of schedule padding on them, and that trains routinely arrive far in advance of the scheduled arrival, especially on the Barcelona-Madrid non-stop services.


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## 437.001

That´s part of the trick. 
Renfe plays with the timetables, giving AVE trains longer stopping times at the stations to be more on time.


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## AlexNL

Not only is it a smart move to keep punctuality at all-time high levels, it's also reassuring to Renfe's customers so they know they'll be able to make a connecting train. Especially when considering Renfe's low-density regional network, I think most passengers will understand and might even prefer the longer stopping times in stations.


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## K_

gincan said:


> They still need to build new train stations, almost all stations are to small to handle any large increase in patronage.


What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...


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## buho

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What about:
> - high-speed line to Lisboa via Badajoz
> - high-peed line Sevilla-Faro
> - high-speed line Huesca-Toulouse


And Vigo-Porto...


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## Reivajar

K_ said:


> What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...


Madrid-Atocha has:
-15 terminus platforms (Puerta de Atocha) which are intensively used as operations in a terminus layout, which is a big limitation (all UIC gauge)
-10 through platforms in Atocha-Cercanías, mostly intended for commuter train services, and some transversal regional and long distance transverse services (Iberian gauge)
-4 through platforms for the new HSL tunnel from Atocha to Chamartín for transverse HS services (UIC gauge)

Madrid-Atocha and Barcelona-Sants are saturated. For sure, switch of the whole network to UIC will improve efficiency of operations in the stations.

For the solution of the capacity of Atocha the solution is the new HS tunnel from Atocha to Chamartín, using the underused Chamartín for more services, and increasing the number of transverse services through Madrid which avoids overload of terminus tracks in Atocha. Chamartín is underused, but kind of out-of-dated, apart of its surroundings which are crappy and dirty.

Barcelona-Sants is overused as well, mostly because of commuter trains, not because HS services. New signage system should be installed for optimizing the utilization of its long platforms. On the other hand, the capacity will improve as Sagrera station is opened in northern Barcelona for rooming more trains.

Bilbao needs a new station as it is expected to room many new services to France and the rest of Spain because of the new line which gonna improved a lot the current infrastructure.

Valencia needs to modify all its railway layout, from a terminus to a through station as the city is just in the middle of the Mediterranean Corridor. Quick services to Alicante and further south with a stop in Valencia are only possible without a terminus station.

The situation in León is kind of similar to Valencia: right now the city station is a terminus, and services from Madrid to Asturias are delayed because of the amount of time lost for getting the city center.

In a more general way, stations in Spain are underused as they are old and the infrastructure is not efficient for attracting a big amount of traffic. As the new lines are opened, and traffic increases, the old stations finally show they haven't been modified since they were built in the 19th century, so an upgrade would be necessary. Not only for the railway itself, but for linking them in a better way with their cities.


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## Ribarca

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ What about:
> - high-speed line to Lisboa via Badajoz
> - high-peed line Sevilla-Faro
> - high-speed line Huesca-Toulouse


Barcelona-Valencia.... The no.2 and 3 city and together responsible for a very large part of all Spanish exports.


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## Reivajar

Ribarca said:


> Barcelona-Valencia.... The no.2 and 3 city and together responsible for a very large part of all Spanish exports.


It is already planned and under construction, except the stretch from Castellón to Valencia, sort of saturated because of commuter trains services. Actually , the central part of the line (Vandellón-Castellón) was (re-)built at the same time than the HSL Madrid-Sevilla with similar standards, so, it is already existing a big part of the line from Valencia to Barcelona. The stretch from Tarragona to Barcelona and to France exists as well.


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## gincan

K_ said:


> What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...


You really have to do a case by case analysis for every station, but in general they can not handle any large increase in passenger flows, and they can't easily be rebuilt to accomndate that. You really need to rebuild stations entirely to allow for dubbling or trippling in crowd flows. Capacity wise, Bilbao and Valencia are both waaaaaaaaay to small for the new role they are supposed to take on when new HSR services are launched. 

In the case of Valencia for example, you really have to look at a trippling of the number of passengers for that station once both Barcelona and Murcia are within 2 hours reach. The number of yearly trips (globaly speaking) between Barcelona, Castellon, Valencia, Alicante and Murcia (12-15 million) are even higher that between Barcelona, Zaragoza and Madrid (10-12 million), but today most o those trips are on other modes of transport. The mediterranean arch is the most heavily traveled in all of Spain but the railway infrastructure is in no way built to support a large modal shift to trains.

In other parts of Spain, there has never been any railway travel to speak of, Asturias and the Basque Country saw at most a few long distance trains per day and so the stations are not built to handle say 1000+ passengers crowding in the waiting areas. Bilbao could realistically speaking see a massive increase in both the number if trains and passenger flows. And it is not only the stations themself, but also the surrounding infrastructure, taxis, buses and private vehicles, how are they going to fit in?

When the Basque Y open, Vitoria, Bilbao and San Sebastian will effectively form one single metropolitan area, it will be perfectly feasible to live in one city and work in the other, that has never been the case before and so trainstations are not built to handle those huge increases in crowds that one can expect.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?


----------



## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?


I don't think TGV beyond Bordeaux is even in long range plans.


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?


It is around 300-400 km shorter via Bordeaux, that's right. It would be the natural way from Madrid and Portugal to Paris.



Sunfuns said:


> I don't think TGV beyond Bordeaux is even in long range plans.


Well, as well, the HSL from Montpellier to Perpignan isn't clear at all. It will be built, but who knows when. And furthermore, the LGV Atlantique is not as saturated ad the LGV Sud-Est, which is as well an important advantage.


----------



## Ribarca

The French often fear competition by creating a fast link. They are really slow on the other side to links things up as well. Seemingly to protect the role Marseille in the Mediterranean.


----------



## 437.001

arctic_carlos said:


> The Spanish side of this line can be divided in two sections: Sevilla - Huelva and Huelva - Portuguese border.
> 
> Between Sevilla and Huelva there is a conventional electrified single-track railway line. It sees some commuter traffic in the Sevilla boundaries (only since two years ago), regional traffic between both cities and also long distance traffic (alvia) between Madrid and Huelva, using the HSL between Madrid and Sevilla. I don't think that building a new HSL is necessary, but there should be plans to upgrade it, as it is being done in the Sevilla - Cádiz line (double track and new layout in some stretches).


The Seville-Huelva line can be divided in two sections: 

-between Seville and Carrion de los Céspedes the line has a difficult profile and sees commuter trains (right now they reach Benacazón, but it isn´t unlikely that in the future they´ll be extended as far as Carrión de los Céspedes or even La Palma del Condado). A whole new line should be built here, and the population of Huelva doesn´t justify it. It could justify a simple doubletracking of the current line, though.

-between Carrión de los Céspedes and Huelva, the line has a much easier profile, and a Cadiz-like upgrade is perfectly feasible.



arctic_carlos said:


> Between Huelva and the Portuguese border the conventional line was closed in 1985. If reopened, it would be useful for commuter traffic between Lepe and Huelva. In addition, there could also be regional and even long distance services from Sevilla and Madrid, as the beaches in the area are very touristic. I think that just with reopening and electrification the line would be successful.


It´s a cycling path now. That is one line that shouldn´t have closed, they should have spent the money on upgrading it, instead of easily closing, it would have been worth it...



arctic_carlos said:


> However, in order to cross the border and connect the Portuguese and the Spanish networks at that point, a bridge across the Guadiana river should be built, as in the past the connection between both lines was made by ferry. Sadly, I don't think there is much interest now to promote this connection, as improving and electrifying the three other existing connections (Vigo - Porto, Salamanca - Guarda and Badajoz - Évora) has more priority.


I agree.



gincan said:


> They still need to build new train stations, almost all stations are to small to handle any large increase in patronage.


I don´t think it´s true in each one of the cases you mention. Some upgrade would do, though.

Case by case:



gincan said:


> Madrid Chamartin,


It doesn´t need more tracks, if you think that once the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel will open, a number of trains won´t be radial Madrid-coast anymore, but diametral coast-Madrid-coast.

What it really needs is to reorganize the space in the passenger hall, now too cluttered and easily overcrowded. A new underground commuter train passenger hall at the interchange with the metro will be needed too. They are starting to think about it, but _Spainball is have no monies_.



gincan said:


> Madrid Atocha,


This one is not saturated. Besides, with the new Atocha-Chamartín tunnel, the second phase of that project includes underground through platforms, so it will win extra capacity.



gincan said:


> Barcelona Sagrera,


_Spainball is have no monies_. :lol:
They should get some and open it, at least in part, since the following station is saturated and about to reach capacity: 



gincan said:


> Barcelona Sants,


Now this is the most saturated station in Spain.
Two extra HSR platforms could be built, but only by transforming two commuter rail platforms into standard gauge, and thus, taking capacity away from the commuter rail. Oops. :shifty: 
A better use of Estació de França and opening the Sagrera main station should help, as well as some reforms to gain capacity in the commuter network.
_Monies, gib monies, Ee-Yuo, plox!_ :nuts::tongue3:




gincan said:


> Valencia Nord,


You have to count Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla too, here.
I don´t think this one will be saturated in the short term.
Right now it isn´t.



gincan said:


> Bilbao Abando,


I don´t think it will be saturated either, but there´s room for a big extension of the station, if need be.



gincan said:


> Gijon Jovellanos,


Right now, this station is closed (and Gijon-Cercanías too), replaced by the supposed-to-be provisory Gijon-Sanz Crespo. There is a project to completely rebuild Gijon-Cercanías as the main Gijon station, including a new underground commuter tunnel for metric gauge, but it´s halted (while works were relatively advanced) since _Spainball is have no monies_. 



gincan said:


> Alicante terminal,


Agreed. The project´s there, but not the money.



gincan said:


> Murcia del Carmen,


Agreed. Here... :nuts: ...here they´re don´t know what to do, since there´s no money, and in this particular case a tunnel under the city would be the best option.



gincan said:


> Granada railway station,


There´s room enough, but no money. 
They could do with the existing station anyway, which is very far from saturated.



gincan said:


> Tarragona-Reus railway station,


There´s no such thing as a Tarragona-Reus station.

If you talk about Camp de Tarragona station, that one´s far from saturated, but it would do with a reopening of the classic line Reus-Camp de Tarragona-Roda de Barà, which was closed in 1990, as that would greatly improve the connectivity in the area.

If you talk about something else, it won´t happen.



gincan said:


> Vitoria-Gasteiz railway station,


Agreed, but not yet. 
The current station still has some space left for more platforms (about two or three, no more).
This case would be a target though, since it could become saturated.
A reshaping of the passenger hall will be needed, I suppose.
Vitoria is the capital of the Basque Country (and not Bilbao, as many people believe), and it´s the fastest-growing Spanish city.



gincan said:


> Valladolid railway station,


Not saturated. HSR platforms are heavily used, but that has a very easy solution: to build more HSR platforms by transforming Iberian gauge platforms. There´s loads of space there.



gincan said:


> Leon railway station,


Not saturated, but the provisory station should really be replaced by a definitive one. They wanted to put it underground, but there´s no money.
Putting it in a trench (that could be covered in places) would probably be the best idea, and the Ministry and local authorities are starting to look like that, it seems. But that costs money anyway.



gincan said:


> Oviedo Norte etc.


Not saturated at all. All trains are through trains.



gincan said:


> These are not cheap renovations we're talking about, but each of these stations will cost in the 100 to 1000 million euros range. In fact, Both Madrid Chamartin and Barcelona Sagrera will utimately cost several billions of euros, and it would not surprise me if also Valencia Nord ends up costing in excess of a billion euros.


They will, and the most expensive will be Valencia.



Ribarca said:


> They will be there to maintain as well. And since so many HSR lines are not making money to pay off the initial investment at all this is a serious issue.


The AVE makes more money than what the press say. And when Spain will start getting out of the crisis, ridership will increase.



K_ said:


> What I've seen in Spain is that most stations are underutilized. How many standard gauge platforms does Atocha have? Multiply by 4 and you have a good figure for the amount of trains the station should be able to handle...


Correct.



buho said:


> And Vigo-Porto...


_Oh la là_, no! :lol:

First, they should upgrade the classic line. Second, electrify. Third, improve train service and frequency. Then, wait and see. After all, this is a Portuguese thing, most of all, we´d only have to build a short section in any case. And obviously, it should be a both-sides project, to build only the Spanish side would be useless. 



Reivajar said:


> Madrid-Atocha and Barcelona-Sants are saturated.


Not Madrid-Atocha. Barcelona-Sants yes.



Reivajar said:


> In a more general way, stations in Spain are underused as they are old and the infrastructure is not efficient for attracting a big amount of traffic. As the new lines are opened, and traffic increases, the old stations finally show they haven't been modified since they were built in the 19th century, so an upgrade would be necessary. Not only for the railway itself, but for linking them in a better way with their cities.


I don´t agree in all of the cases. It´s a case-by-case thing. Every station is different.



Ribarca said:


> Barcelona-Valencia.... The no.2 and 3 city and together responsible for a very large part of all Spanish exports.


By now, there´s a new line being built, to link the current line between Vandellos and Camp de Tarragona HSR station, including a connection for freight and regional rail at Vilaseca. I wouldn´t call it a full HSL though, since it shares traffic and paths with freight and commuter railway.
In the long term (decades), a HSL might be needed, but not yet.



Reivajar said:


> It is already planned and under construction, except the stretch from Castellón to Valencia, sort of saturated because of commuter trains services.


It´s not under construction.



gincan said:


> You really have to do a case by case analysis for every station, but in general they can not handle any large increase in passenger flows, and they can't easily be rebuilt to accomndate that. You really need to rebuild stations entirely to allow for dubbling or trippling in crowd flows. Capacity wise, Bilbao and Valencia are both waaaaaaaaay to small for the new role they are supposed to take on when new HSR services are launched.
> 
> In the case of Valencia for example, you really have to look at a trippling of the number of passengers for that station once both Barcelona and Murcia are within 2 hours reach. The number of yearly trips (globaly speaking) between Barcelona, Castellon, Valencia, Alicante and Murcia (12-15 million) are even higher that between Barcelona, Zaragoza and Madrid (10-12 million), but today most o those trips are on other modes of transport. The mediterranean arch is the most heavily traveled in all of Spain but the railway infrastructure is in no way built to support a large modal shift to trains.


The project´s there, but not the money. And this is going to be very expensive. I agree overall with your comment.



gincan said:


> In other parts of Spain, there has never been any railway travel to speak of,


You exaggerate you... :lol:



gincan said:


> Asturias and the Basque Country saw at most a few long distance trains per day and so the stations are not built to handle say 1000+ passengers crowding in the waiting areas.


Gijon I agree (though it´s under construction, but delayed for lack of money).



gincan said:


> Bilbao could realistically speaking see a massive increase in both the number if trains and passenger flows. And it is not only the stations themself, but also the surrounding infrastructure, taxis, buses and private vehicles, how are they going to fit in?


They will, don´t worry about this case. Bilbao-Abando station has loads of room, enough to double the size of the station. And the Ministry knows it.

Vitoria is a much more worrying case, but not in the short term.



gincan said:


> When the Basque Y open, Vitoria, Bilbao and San Sebastian will effectively form one single metropolitan area, it will be perfectly feasible to live in one city and work in the other,


That already happens (motorway ), and even between the Spanish and French sides of the Basque Country. There are people who live even in the Landes (outside the Basque Country in the direction of Dax and Bordeaux) and work at San Sebastian.



gincan said:


> that has never been the case before and so train stations are not built to handle those huge increases in crowds that one can expect.


It already is the case.

Like I´ve just said, Bilbao doesn´t really worry me. 
San Sebastian doesn´t worry me either, since the station is planned outside the city center, and linked to the current one through the commuter trains.
Vitoria does worry me in the long term.

And Pamplona does worry me too, just like Vitoria. Pamplona is another of the fastest-growing Spanish cities.



Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Also, when the French completes the LGV to Biarritz it will be probably faster to travel between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux-San Sebástian than via Barcelona-Perpignan, right?


Yes, but not next week.



Sunfuns said:


> I don't think TGV beyond Bordeaux is even in long range plans.


It is... or so they say.



Reivajar said:


> It is around 300-400 km shorter via Bordeaux, that's right. It would be the natural way from Madrid and Portugal to Paris.


Correct.



Reivajar said:


> Well, as well, the HSL from Montpellier to Perpignan isn't clear at all. It will be built, but who knows when. And furthermore, the LGV Atlantique is not as saturated ad the LGV Sud-Est, which is as well an important advantage.


Not necessarily if you improve capacity between Paris and Lyon. 



Ribarca said:


> The French often fear competition by creating a fast link. They are really slow on the other side to links things up as well. Seemingly to protect the role Marseille in the Mediterranean.


And this has nothing to do with Spanish HSR.
Besides, Marseille will also benefit from a TGV/AVE to Barcelona and maybe Madrid too.


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> This one is not saturated. Besides, with the new Atocha-Chamartín tunnel, the second phase of that project includes underground through platforms, so it will win extra capacity.
> 
> 
> Not Madrid-Atocha. Barcelona-Sants yes.


The situation right now in Atocha is not worrying as the through tunnel and platforms for high speed are going to be opened. If not, dealing with all the high speed services to Andalusia, the Mediterranean Coast, Aragon and Catalonia with just a terminus station with 15 tracks wouldn't be enough. 



> By now, there´s a new line to link the current line between Vandellos and Camp de Tarragona HSR station, including a Vilaseca connection for freight and regional rail. I wouldn ´t call it a full HSL though, since it shares traffic and paths with freight and commuter railway.
> In the long term, a HSL might be needed, but not yet.
> 
> It´s not under construction.


The situation along the Mediterranean Corridor is complicated. Full High Speed services actually can not be offered as there are shared tracks with freight trains. But it is not as simple as saying not under construction. Most of the line between Barcelona and Valencia is already built, but shared by high speed trains, conventional trains and freight trains between Tarragona and Valencia.




> Not necessarily if you improve capacity between Paris and Lyon.


:lol:... yes... anyway it is tricky and dense that part of the French network


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> The situation right now in Atocha is not worrying as the through tunnel and platforms for high speed are going to be opened. If not, dealing with all the high speed services to Andalusia, the Mediterranean Coast, Aragon and Catalonia with just a terminus station with 15 tracks wouldn't be enough.


I don´t think so.

Atocha has already got extra capacity with the bretelle points and the new arrivals hall.

Besides, even if the to-be-built underground through platforms won´t be ready in a number of years because of lack of funds, some trains will be diverted to Chamartín right from the start of the opening of the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel, and that will leave more room at Atocha, to both the commuter and HSR platforms. 



> The situation along the Mediterranean Corridor is complicated. Full High Speed services actually can not be offered as there are shared tracks with freight trains. But it is not as simple as saying not under construction. Most of the line between Barcelona and Valencia is already built, but shared by high speed trains, conventional trains and freight trains between Tarragona and Valencia.


I was actually speaking (well, typing... ) about the Valencia-Castellon section. 
Sorry, I didn´t elaborate.



> :lol:... yes... anyway it is tricky and dense that part of the French network


Yes, but this is off-topic.


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> I don´t think so.
> 
> Atocha has already got extra capacity with the bretelle points and the new arrivals hall.
> 
> Besides, even if the to-be-built underground through platforms won´t be ready in a number of years because of lack of funds, some trains will be diverted to Chamartín right from the start of the opening of the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel, and that will leave more room at Atocha, to both the commuter and HSR platforms.


Sure. I agree with you.

Anyway Barcelona-Sants is far worse than Atocha. So two extra UIC gauge tracks for the station and removing two Iberian gauge won't affect the already saturated commuter network around Sants?

BTW I know it is slightly off topic. :-D


----------



## K_

Reivajar said:


> The situation right now in Atocha is not worrying as the through tunnel and platforms for high speed are going to be opened. If not, dealing with all the high speed services to Andalusia, the Mediterranean Coast, Aragon and Catalonia with just a terminus station with 15 tracks wouldn't be enough.



15 tracks should allow for 60 departures an hour....


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Anyway Barcelona-Sants is far worse than Atocha.


Indeed. That station was born smaller.
If ever (say, for Easter holidays) a sold out double TGV Duplex enters Sants station terminating there, it will saturate the passenger hall (that´s 1000 people in one go). One single bleeding sold out double TGV Duplex can make that happen. And that´s worrying.



> So two extra UIC gauge tracks for the station and removing two Iberian gauge won't affect the already saturated commuter network around Sants?


It will, yes. Not a lot, but in degraded situation, it certainly will.

Anyway, eight tracks for the current more than 80 trains is not a lot, either, and if you add to the bill all the Valencia and Murcia trains, and all of the France/Switzerland trains, you do have a problem even with eight tracks.



K_ said:


> 15 tracks should allow for 60 departures an hour....


They do, Atocha isn´t really saturated these days. 
Only at the peak hours it might get very busy, but never like the Gare de Lyon.


----------



## 437.001

*Pajares base tunnels (related to the Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon HSL)*.

Some photos of the northern portal of the main tunnel.
The second one shows the area during the construction works. 
The third photo shows the same area after it was completed.



jl5 said:


> Pics from the book 'ASTURIAS DESDE EL AIRE, UNA VENTANA AL PARAISO (2008)', by the photographer Nardo Villaboy.


The photo just above ^^ and the one just below show the same area:



Fruela said:


>


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Indeed. That station was born smaller.
> If ever (say, for Easter holidays) a sold out double TGV Duplex enters Sants station terminating there, it will saturate the passenger hall (that´s 1000 people in one go). One single bleeding sold out double TGV Duplex can make that happen. And that´s worrying.
> 
> 
> 
> It will, yes. Not a lot, but in degraded situation, it certainly will.
> 
> Anyway, eight tracks for the current more than 80 trains is not a lot, either, and if you add to the bill all the Valencia and Murcia trains, and all of the France/Switzerland trains, you do have a problem even with eight tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> They do, Atocha isn´t really saturated these days.
> Only at the peak hours it might get very busy, but never like the Gare de Lyon.



There is an important difference for stations in Spain comparing with other European station (except for Eurostar services). It is the controls for getting to the platforms, they make much more complicated and slow the way people move around the station, from and to the platforms. I think in Atocha it is relatively well solved, but it is not the case in Sants, which is not a station ready for managing that amount of people.

But I have the impression that dealing with the amount of people Gare de Lyon rooms at peak hours would provoke even a chaos in Atocha. Sants, simply, couldn't room that amount of people.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> There is an important difference for stations in Spain comparing with other European station (except for Eurostar services). It is the controls for getting to the platforms, they make much more complicated and slow the way people move around the station, from and to the platforms.


To an extent. If you mean the scanners, yes.
But I´ve had a ticket control to get to my Corail Téoz at Paris-Gare de Lyon.



> I think in Atocha it is relatively well solved, but it is not the case in Sants, which is not a station ready for managing that amount of people.


Spot on. At Atocha there´s a whole hall designed for that, while at Sants... there´s... well, the passenger hall. :clown:



> But I have the impression that dealing with the amount of people Gare de Lyon rooms at peak hours would provoke even a chaos in Atocha.


Atocha is not really that far from Gare de Lyon as one could imagine.
It really is a big station.



> Sants, simply, couldn't room that amount of people.


Sants can´t even room a fart. :fart:

There´s only one escalator to descend from the passenger hall into each platform, and only one escalator to climb from each platform into the passenger hall. 
How come a station like Sants cannot be saturated? Like this, it´s imposible not to get saturated.

Even a shitty station like Montpellier-Saint Roch is better designed than Barcelona-Sants.


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Sants can´t even room a fart. :fart:
> 
> There´s only one escalator to descend from the passenger hall into each platform, and only one escalator to climb from each platform into the passenger hall.
> How come a station like Sants cannot be saturated? Like this, it´s imposible not to get saturated.
> 
> Even a shitty station like Montpellier-Saint Roch is better designed than Barcelona-Sants.


:lol: :crazy:

The problem in Sants is mostly about passengers areas than tracks capacity. The only real solution for that is rebuilding and redisigning the whole overground complex which is an extremely big and expensive operation, and impossible to do without a second big station in Barcelona like Sagrera.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> The problem in Sants is mostly about passengers areas than tracks capacity.


Well, track capacity is also an issue. The main one, in fact. :shifty:



> The only real solution for that is rebuilding and redisigning the whole overground complex which is an extremely big and expensive operation, and impossible to do without a second big station in Barcelona like Sagrera.


I don´t think so.
Sagrera will take away many passengers from Sants.

What Sants needs is a massive upgrade of the passenger hall.
It´s not an easy thing to do without some disruptions, but I consider it feasible.

That said, an exit from the crisis, a serious increase in HSR, regional rail and commuter rail passenger numbers, and Sants might find itself with a very serious problem of saturation, and that, even with Sagrera open.

A solution is to reinforce the role of Estació de França, now underused, and also (and in particular) to open El Prat de Llobregat HSR as a full station. 
Opening the Sant Andreu Comtal HSR facilities would do a lot of good to Sants, too.

That would drain the passengers (and high speed trains) better through the city.


----------



## arctic_carlos

There was a plan to make Sants hall bigger, but it was shelved once the HSL was opened. I think the idea was to double the size of the hall. If Sagrera does not open soon, perhaps a good idea would be to think again of upgrading Sants.

About tracks, once the link between the HSL to Madrid and the kine to Valencia is opened, there won't be the need of having 8 Iberian gauge tracks, as all Long Distance services will use standard gauge. With 6 tracks it will be enough (2 for Plaça Catalunya tunnel and 4 for Passeig de Gràcia tunnel). Therefore 2 tracks could be switched to standard gauge without causing much trouble to the Iberian gauge part of the station.


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Well, track capacity is also an issue. The main one, in fact. :shifty:
> 
> I don´t think so.
> Sagrera will take away many passengers from Sants.
> 
> What Sants needs is a massive upgrade of the passenger hall.
> It´s not an easy thing to do without some disruptions, but I consider it feasible.
> 
> That said, an exit from the crisis, a serious increase in HSR, regional rail and commuter rail passenger numbers, and Sants might find itself with a very serious problem of saturation, and that, even with Sagrera open.
> 
> A solution is to reinforce the role of Estació de França, now underused, and also (and in particular) to open El Prat de Llobregat HSR as a full station.
> Opening the Sant Andreu Comtal HSR facilities would do a lot of good to Sants, too.
> 
> That would drain the passengers (and high speed trains) better through the city.


With the current number of tracks in the station, even if the are not sufficient, if you increase the number of services the problem is going to be in the halls as you say. That's why I see the halls issue as more critical.

Anyway, opening new stations in the Barcelona area would help, but it is not the solution for Sants... The thing of the double-decked halls as artic_carlos says could be interesting, but as far as it don't include additional ramps to the platforms I don't know if it can be a real solution.


----------



## 437.001

*Basque 'Y' HSL*.

River Deba viaduct, near Bergara.

Picture taken in August.



BPT said:


>


----------



## 437.001

arctic_carlos said:


> There was a plan to make Sants hall bigger, but it was shelved once the HSL was opened. I think the idea was to double the size of the hall. If Sagrera does not open soon, perhaps a good idea would be to think again of upgrading Sants.


Even if it does, it would be a good idea to do it.



arctic_carlos said:


> About tracks, once the link between the HSL to Madrid and the kine to Valencia is opened, there won't be the need of having 8 Iberian gauge tracks, as all Long Distance services will use standard gauge. With 6 tracks it will be enough (2 for Plaça Catalunya tunnel and 4 for Passeig de Gràcia tunnel). Therefore 2 tracks could be switched to standard gauge without causing much trouble to the Iberian gauge part of the station.


R11. Unless you take them to Estació de França (by disrupting R1 trains) or to the Airport (in which case a massive upgrade of the Airport station would be needed), there´s the need of at least two tracks. Bellvitge and El Prat stations won´t be used as train parkings forever.



Reivajar said:


> With the current number of tracks in the station, even if the are not sufficient, if you increase the number of services the problem is going to be in the halls as you say. That's why I see the halls issue as more critical.


Both are important, but I´d rather prefer the hall overcrowded tan not having any more room for trains.



Reivajar said:


> Anyway, opening new stations in the Barcelona area would help, but it is not the solution for Sants...


Oh, that could do for a while, believe me. But not forever.

If you open El Prat HSL, a number of people would use it, since it´s the one to connect to the airport (and to metro L9, that will take you to the Fair and Congress hall in just 4 stops.), and to the south of suburban Barcelona.

That would mean less passengers boarding/alighting at Sants.

The same goes for Sagrera. Open it, and a number of passengers will board/alight at Sagrera. Less central, but better connected to the north of suburban Barcelona.



Reivajar said:


> The thing of the double-decked halls as artic_carlos says could be interesting, but as far as it don't include additional ramps to the platforms I don't know if it can be a real solution.


Forget about ramps here, only escalators and lifts can have space enough at Sants.

As for two-storey halls (which arctic_carlos didn´t talk about, as far as I know), it´s a good idea... if you take all the shops to the first floor and leave the ground for the passenger space. 
Knowing this country, the shops will stay on the ground floor and the passenger space will be moved to the first floor. :troll:


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Knowing this country, the shops will stay on the ground floor and the passenger space will be moved to the first floor. :troll:


But is it possible to do it any other way? :troll:


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> But is it possible to do it any other way? :troll:


Tomorrow. :yawn:

Zzzzzz. :sleepy:


----------



## Harrys

437.001 said:


> ^^
> Sorry, it took me longer than expected (had to go out buy stuff, then do some house things)... :nuts:
> 
> 
> 
> It´s only between trains and airplanes.
> 
> If we took all the modes (trains, airplanes, bus, private car), then trains+airplanes make less than 60% put together.
> Private vehicles make around 1/3, and bus somewhere between 5% and 10%.
> 
> Counting all modes, train would be only around 35%.


Thanks for this explanation!

But i think for the market share, we can just stick to HSL vs. Airplane, because it's same market (~ 3 hours of travel from door to door)

Buses and private cars need more than 7h30 hours to make this journey, we can consider them as a different market, which doesn't target the same travelers.


----------



## arctic_carlos

437.001 said:


> R11. Unless you take them to Estació de França (by disrupting R1 trains) or to the Airport (in which case a massive upgrade of the Airport station would be needed), there´s the need of at least two tracks. Bellvitge and El Prat stations won´t be used as train parkings forever.


With 6 tracks Sants cannot be used as a terminus station for Iberian gauge services anymore, so a solution must be found for those services coming from the north, which now run empty until Bellvitge or El Prat stations. The best idea would be, as you say, to upgrade the Airport station. However, it would be wiser to wait until the new T1 station is built than upgrading the current T2 station, as the latter will be dismantled sooner or later. Meanwhile, El Prat and Bellvitge can still be used to store empty trains.

Moreover, the current single track spur to the Airport has not enough capacity to bring there a lot of trains, and it would not make a lot of sense to double track it when it is going to be closed as soon as the new line to the T1 opens. Regarding the future T1 station, I hope it has more than two tracks, but I guess that even with just two the situation will improve if you compare it with the current T2 station.




437.001 said:


> As for two-storey halls (which arctic_carlos didn´t talk about, as far as I know), it´s a good idea... if you take all the shops to the first floor and leave the ground for the passenger space.
> Knowing this country, the shops will stay on the ground floor and the passenger space will be moved to the first floor. :troll:


I didn't talk about a two-level hall, but it could maybe be a good idea. If I'm not mistaken, the original plan was to extend the current hall to all directions, as it is technically possible because the squares located at both sides of the station are huge. If I'm not mistaken, new exits from the platforms to the street (at the Llobregat end of all of them) were already built when the platforms were renovated before the arrival of the HSL to Sants. Now they act as emergency exits, but they could be converted into new entrances from the expanded hall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> It doesn´t need more tracks, if you think that once the Atocha-Chamartín HSR tunnel will open, a number of trains won´t be radial Madrid-coast anymore, but diametral coast-Madrid-coast.
> 
> What it really needs is to reorganize the space in the passenger hall, now too cluttered and easily overcrowded. A new underground commuter train passenger hall at the interchange with the metro will be needed too. They are starting to think about it, but _Spainball is have no monies_.


On the trackside Chamartín has overcapacity, it is not a problem. However, the passenger terminal is a joke, it works now but in the future when there will be 30-40 400 meter long HSR trains per hour, even a total renovation of the existing building including your commuter train station would be insufficent.

A completely new passenger terminal has to be built, and that will cost billions.



437.001 said:


> This one is not saturated. Besides, with the new Atocha-Chamartín tunnel, the second phase of that project includes underground through platforms, so it will win extra capacity.


The new Atocha extension will be Über expensive since they have to build under existing infrastructure, and it has to be built, there is no way around it.




437.001 said:


> Now this is the most saturated station in Spain.
> Two extra HSR platforms could be built, but only by transforming two commuter rail platforms into standard gauge, and thus, taking capacity away from the commuter rail. Oops. :shifty:
> A better use of Estació de França and opening the Sagrera main station should help, as well as some reforms to gain capacity in the commuter network.


Not only is Sants overcrowded, but there in no space left in the terminal to expand the HSR passenger waiting hall. Already it is collapsed and with trains to/from France and beyond and even more passengers from Murcia/Alicante/Valencia the only option left is a massive expansion of the existing building.

Sagrera will help a little but the more convinient location of Sants means that it will probably always be the prefered station for business travelers.

Also, Estació de França will be closed, ADIF doesn't want to pay for the maintenance, it is the most maintenance heavy railway building in Spain. It cost a fortune just to keep it open, Renfe wanted to close it already 25 years ago because of the cost.

Anyway, even when all the existing railway porjects are finished, there will be another 15-20 years worth of railway station building, that will cost if not as much as new HSR corridors, it will still be a significant part of the next 30 years of infrastructure budgets.


----------



## K_

Reivajar said:


> There is an important difference for stations in Spain comparing with other European station (except for Eurostar services). It is the controls for getting to the platforms, they make much more complicated and slow the way people move around the station, from and to the platforms.


There is a cheap and trivially simple solution to that issue....


----------



## Reivajar

K_ said:


> There is a cheap and trivially simple solution to that issue....


You mean...? To make those controls disappear?


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes, because they are useless...

(except for X-ray scanner builders)


----------



## alserrod

I do strongly, strongly agree


----------



## Reivajar

Coccodrillo said:


> Yes, because they are useless...
> 
> (except for X-ray scanner builders)


Sure.

Well, you know, it is about selling appearance of security like in airports (sic). Do you think there is any difference if comparing with planes?


----------



## Sunfuns

It's much easier to destroy the airplane in the air than a running train and unfortunately there have been numerous successful examples. Also hijacking a train won't do you much good...


----------



## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> It's much easier to destroy the airplane in the air than a running train and unfortunately there have been numerous successful examples. Also hijacking a train won't do you much good...


Well, it is hard to calculate how bad is a bomb explosion in a train running at 300 km/h... Not worse and more critical than in a plane in the air for sure, but highly destructive as well.

Planes are more critical than trains? For sure... I don't doubt it.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Once an airplane is flying terrorist outside it cannot do nothing to ground it, while it is quite easy to put some bombs around kilomoetres of HSLs, not to mention on commuter trains...


----------



## Reivajar

Coccodrillo said:


> Once an airplane is flying terrorist outside it cannot do nothing to ground it, while it is quite easy to put some bombs around kilomoetres of HSLs, not to mention on commuter trains...


As well, as well... Just take a look to old news about where the Civil Guards moved after any terrorist attack in Spain: one of the most watched points were the HSLs...

I mean, those controls are obviously absurd as far as you are not controlling other mass transit systems on rail as well critical, as our experience shows.


----------



## 437.001

Harrys said:


> Thanks for this explanation!


You are welcome. 



Harrys said:


> But i think for the market share, we can just stick to HSL vs. Airplane, because it's same market (~ 3 hours of travel from door to door)
> 
> Buses and private cars need more than 7h30 hours to make this journey, we can consider them as a different market, which doesn't target the same travelers.


Well, I think that counts too, there´s also a number of passengers who switched from car and bus to train. Perhaps the case of Madrid-Barcelona is not the most evident, since plane played (and still does) a very important role, but in other routes (like Madrid-Zaragoza, or Lleida-Madrid, and in particular other HSLs like Madrid-Seville, Madrid-Alicante and Madrid-Valencia, the main rival was/is the car and the buses).



arctic_carlos said:


> With 6 tracks Sants cannot be used as a terminus station for Iberian gauge services anymore, so a solution must be found for those services coming from the north, which now run empty until Bellvitge or El Prat stations. The best idea would be, as you say, to upgrade the Airport station. However, it would be wiser to wait until the new T1 station is built than upgrading the current T2 station, as the latter will be dismantled sooner or later. Meanwhile, El Prat and Bellvitge can still be used to store empty trains.
> 
> Moreover, the current single track spur to the Airport has not enough capacity to bring there a lot of trains, and it would not make a lot of sense to double track it when it is going to be closed as soon as the new line to the T1 opens. Regarding the future T1 station, I hope it has more than two tracks, but I guess that even with just two the situation will improve if you compare it with the current T2 station.


I honestly don´t know wether the infamous Airport T1 station will be built or not. I don´t think it is really that necessary, as there already is an Airport T1 station, and metro L9 is about to reach both terminals...



arctic_carlos said:


> I didn't talk about a two-level hall, but it could maybe be a good idea. If I'm not mistaken, the original plan was to extend the current hall to all directions, as it is technically possible because the squares located at both sides of the station are huge. If I'm not mistaken, new exits from the platforms to the street (at the Llobregat end of all of them) were already built when the platforms were renovated before the arrival of the HSL to Sants. Now they act as emergency exits, but they could be converted into new entrances from the expanded hall. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


That will be expensive, and will reduce the size of Joan Peiró square. And I´m not so sure about the intentions of the city council.



gincan said:


> On the trackside Chamartín has overcapacity, it is not a problem. However, the passenger terminal is a joke, it works now but in the future when there will be 30-40 400 meter long HSR trains per hour, even a total renovation of the existing building including your commuter train station would be insufficent.
> 
> A completely new passenger terminal has to be built, and that will cost billions.


So true. Anyway, there is still some room for reorganizing the space at Chamartín, right now there´s a first floor that they don´t use (as far as know), so the restaurants/bars/cafés/shops, at least part of them, could be moved upstairs.
Otherwise, the passenger hall will be a chaos. That´s a fact.



gincan said:


> The new Atocha extension will be Über expensive since they have to build under existing infrastructure, and it has to be built, there is no way around it.


Actually, through trains will skip Atocha for some time, till the extension you´re talking about gets built. That will only bring more trouble into Chamartín, but I´m afraid it´s the only possibility for some time, till some money is available to build the Atocha extension...



gincan said:


> Not only is Sants overcrowded, but there in no space left in the terminal to expand the HSR passenger waiting hall. Already it is collapsed and with trains to/from France and beyond and even more passengers from Murcia/Alicante/Valencia the only option left is a massive expansion of the existing building.


Indeed.



gincan said:


> Sagrera will help a little but the more convinient location of Sants means that it will probably always be the prefered station for business travelers.


It won´t be that much of a difference. Sagrera will be a better option for those going to the lower part of Diagonal (which is also developing as a business area). IF ONLY L4 La Pau-Sagrera got built (well, finished ), that would be quite handy.



gincan said:


> Also, Estació de França will be closed, ADIF doesn't want to pay for the maintenance, it is the most maintenance heavy railway building in Spain. It cost a fortune just to keep it open, Renfe wanted to close it already 25 years ago because of the cost.


That I know, it´s the city who wants it closed, not Renfe! Renfe really still needs it. As for Adif, I think they don´t really care about the maintenance as a big issue, it´s not the only station with a big train shed (Valencia-Nord, Corunna-San Cristóbal, San Sebastian, Bilbao-Abando, Medina del Campo, Madrid-Príncipe Pío, Jerez, Puente Genil, Alicante, Valladolid... there are many of them, albeit Estació de França is the biggest and anyway, other stations abroad, say Paris-Gare de Lyon or Leipzig, to name but two, are even bigger and there´s no way they´re going to be closed).



gincan said:


> Anyway, even when all the existing railway porjects are finished, there will be another 15-20 years worth of railway station building, that will cost if not as much as new HSR corridors, it will still be a significant part of the next 30 years of infrastructure budgets.


Maybe, we´ll see. :dunno:



K_ said:


> There is a cheap and trivially simple solution to that issue....






Sunfuns said:


> It's much easier to destroy the airplane in the air than a running train and unfortunately there have been numerous successful examples.


Al-Qaeda proves that wrong. Two times (Madrid, London).



Reivajar said:


> Well, it is hard to calculate how bad is a bomb explosion in a train running at 300 km/h...


Certainly worse than a bomb inside a commuter train, and that was bad enough. 

But let´s not talk about this, please.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Besides, in the new lines *more and more small stations for serving secondary regional centers between cities are planned*, and probably in the future top speed services will be combined with slower regional high speed trains serving those smaller stations.


Ahem. :smug:


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Ahem. :smug:


Allow me to be optimistic... :lol:

But if I am wrong what's Almansa, Villena, Utiel-Requena, Antequera-Santa Ana, Puente Genil-Herrera or Sanabria stations? 

Far better if considering the only "minor" station on the first high speed line: Puertollano.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

437.001 said:


> Spain is bigger than Germany, but has almost half the population of Germany, the population density is much lower, and the distribution of the population is totally different.


Population densities:
Germany - 233 per square km
France - 111 per square km (and the inventor of TGV)
Spain - 88 per square km
Sweden - 20 per square km (and the new built HSR Botniabanan is in the sparsely settled north)
Finland - 16 per square km (and they also have broad gauge).


----------



## XAN_

Well, in case of Finland population is distributed rather unevenly, so there is high density along the coast, and hardly anyone at the polar circle... In France, Paris and Ille-de-France (hope I get that right, no offence) also biases general density to some extent.


----------



## Reivajar

chornedsnorkack said:


> Population densities:
> Germany - 233 per square km
> France - 111 per square km (and the inventor of TGV)
> Spain - 88 per square km
> Sweden - 20 per square km (and the new built HSR Botniabanan is in the sparsely settled north)
> Finland - 16 per square km (and they also have broad gauge).


It is not only a low population density in the case of Spain. But it is really irregular its distribution. The Mediterranean corridor from France to Murcia, through Catalonia and the Valencian Community has high population densities (over 200 hab/km2), and the Northern coast corridor, from the Basque Country to Asturias as well is really high (over 100 hab/km2 in Asturias, but over 300 habi/km2)

Then, you have in the center of Spain Madrid, kind of isolated from the most populated areas of Spain on the coast, because most of inner Spain (Castille, Extremadura and Aragon (except Ebro valley and Zaragoza area) had really low densities.


----------



## arctic_carlos

A province capital that lost almost all its Long Distance services is Ávila, as the HSL Madrid - Valladolid follows a different route than the conventional line.

Albacete lost Long Distance services between Madrid and Valencia when the HSL between both cities opened, although it still has the Madrid - Alicante high speed services.

I think these cities are the only two province capitals that have lost Long Distance services as a result if the opening of HSL. All other new lines follow the same routes of conventional lines, at least between province capitals. However, in some cases, as in Tarragona, Guadalajara or Cuenca, stations have been built out of the cities, although services offered have improved a lot in these new stations.


----------



## Reivajar

arctic_carlos said:


> A province capital that lost almost all its Long Distance services is Ávila, as the HSL Madrid - Valladolid follows a different route than the conventional line.
> 
> Albacete lost Long Distance services between Madrid and Valencia when the HSL between both cities opened, although it still has the Madrid - Alicante high speed services.
> 
> I think these cities are the only two province capitals that have lost Long Distance services as a result if the opening of HSL. All other new lines follow the same routes of conventional lines, at least between province capitals. However, in some cases, as in Tarragona, Guadalajara or Cuenca, stations have been built out of the cities, although services offered have improved a lot in these new stations.


Ah, that's true. You're right. However, while Avila has lost the long distance services, Segovia has got them (before Segovia was the terminus of the line and it had only regional/commuter services with Madrid).


----------



## alserrod

JumpUp said:


> HeyHo,
> 
> I'm always impressed about the High Speed transportation in Spain.
> 
> While opening a HSL in Germany there is always the discussion about smaller citys next to the HSL that will loose their long-distance traffic after the high-speed lines got open, because that new line doesn't pass through these cities anylonger.
> 
> For example: Jena will get disconnected from ICE trains in 2017, Koblenz and Bonn lost many of their international service in 2001. Magdeburg lost it's ICE connection to Berlin in the 90s... etc. etc.
> 
> How is it in Spain? Are there any remarkable cities that lost (or will loose in the future) important train connections because the AVE goes a different route and doesn't stop anywhere nearby?
> The connections got now worse than they used to be before opening the HSL?
> 
> Thanks for information
> 
> Phillip



Hi Phillip

There are some towns that are going to lose (or already have lost) several services due to HSL. Towns where classic lines crossed by their stations and maybe not all of them but at least some trains stopped.

It could be improved with a correct shuttle service between regional trains and HS trains and it is affordable.

In the last years we have seen several details to be improved... but I would say that there is too much to do in that way as you can see.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Allow me to be optimistic... :lol:


:dunno::|



Reivajar said:


> But if I am wrong what's Almansa, Villena, Utiel-Requena, Antequera-Santa Ana, Puente Genil-Herrera or Sanabria stations?


These are not "more and more planned stations". Excepting the case of Almansa and Sanabria stations, all of them are open.
Almansa HSR station finally didn´t open and its construction never really started.
And Sanabria station... well, that is a case of a station I wouldn´t build. The only remarkable nearby population is Bragança, and that´s in Portugal. 



Reivajar said:


> Far better if considering the only "minor" station on the first high speed line: Puertollano.


Puertollano is a city. Not a big city, nor the head of a province, but a city anyway.



arctic_carlos said:


> A province capital that lost almost all its Long Distance services is Ávila, as the HSL Madrid - Valladolid follows a different route than the conventional line.


That is true. It´s maybe the only case.
Segovia (which didn´t have any long-distance service) took over instead of Avila (which has lost them).



arctic_carlos said:


> Albacete lost Long Distance services between Madrid and Valencia when the HSL between both cities opened, although it still has the Madrid - Alicante high speed services.


In this particular case, remember the flyover and by-pass under construction at La Encina. Valencia-Xativa-Albacete-Cuenca-Madrid HS trains will be possible again in a few years. With the addition of Cuenca instead of Alcázar de San Juan (that´s another of the towns that have lost many services, though Alcázar´s not as bad as Avila, and still retains some).


----------



## 437.001

*Valladolid-Palencia-Leon-Asturias HSL*.
*Pajares base tunnels*.

Section Campomanes-Sotiello-Pajares tunnels.
Pictures from Sunday.



_Teso viaducts:_



adcava said:


>




_The troublesome Campomanes trench, prone to landslides:_



adcava said:


>




_Teso tunnels:_



adcava said:


>




_San Bras viaduct, and Sotiello (south portals), and Jomezana tunnels (North portals):_



adcava said:


>




_View from Los Pontones. Water keeps on flowing from the great Pajares tunnels:_



adcava said:


>




_Water flowing from the Pajares tunnels, into river Huerna:_



adcava said:


>


----------



## Ribarca

I think population densities are meaningful but more meaningful is to also look at a map at the distribution of the people over a country.

A country with a low density of population overall has little need for a HSL. Spain is not densely populated but does have a large concentration of people in small urban areas (e.g. along the Mediterranean and in the center of the country (Madrid) or along the Atlantic coast. A HSL makes sense in such a situation.

My apologies for the large map.


----------



## 437.001

Another forumer just posted the same map in a better scale. :sleepy:


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> And Sanabria station... well, that is a case of a station I wouldn´t build. The only remarkable nearby population is Bragança, and that´s in Portugal.


Am I right that the "full stop" HS train from Madrid to Santiago would then have the following stops: Segovia, Medina del Campo, Zamora, Sanabria and Ourense. 

You are right that Sanabria station doesn't make all that much sense from the economic point of view, but perhaps there is something interesting nearby why visitors from Madrid or abroad would like to stop there? 

I thought for a moment that perhaps Portuguese would like to use, but after "consulting" with Google that doesn't seem to make sense. From Braganca it's just as good to drive to Zamora and take a train to Madrid from there.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Am I right that the "full stop" HS train from Madrid to Santiago would then have the following stops: Segovia, Medina del Campo, Zamora, Sanabria and Ourense.


No, there´s also A Gudiña station between Sanabria and Ourense, you´re missing that one. 
But I´m not all that sure about Sanabria station opening. 
As for A Gudiña station... dunno, doesn´t make much sense to me either, but that area is a bit more populated.



Sunfuns said:


> You are right that Sanabria station doesn't make all that much sense from the economic point of view, but perhaps there is something interesting nearby why visitors from Madrid or abroad would like to stop there?


Well, Puebla de Sanabria and its surroundings are an area of outstanding natural beauty, that´s true (a bit like the Yorkshire Dales in Britain, so to speak).
But you know, you don´t just open a station just for high-season tourists, do you? 
The Sanabria region has a very low population density. 



Sunfuns said:


> I thought for a moment that perhaps Portuguese would like to use, but after "consulting" with Google that doesn't seem to make sense. From Braganca it's just as good to drive to Zamora and take a train to Madrid from there.


Correct.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Well, Puebla de Sanabria and its surroundings are an area of outstanding natural beauty, that´s true (a bit like the Yorkshire Dales in Britain, so to speak).
> *But you know, you don´t just open a station just for high-season tourists, do you?*
> The Sanabria region has a very low population density.


Generally not, but then again it depends how much it costs to do so. If there is no deviation from the route the train would be taking anyway and the structure itself is basic with minimal staffing then it could be ok to take a chance on it. It could even pay off if you can go hiking straight from the station or have reliable local buses which take you to interesting nearby places. If you organise it well it could become a popular day trip from Madrid (ca 2h I assume). There are trains in Switzerland which are full in summer mostly with hikers and in winter mostly with skiers. 

More problematic are stations which are in the middle of agricultural areas and with little population nearby.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Generally not, but then again it depends how much it costs to do so. If there is no deviation from the route the train would be taking anyway and the structure itself is basic with minimal staffing then it could be ok to take a chance on it. It could even pay off if you can go hiking straight from the station or have reliable local buses which take you to interesting nearby places. If you organise it well it could become a popular day trip from Madrid (ca 2h I assume). There are trains in Switzerland which are full in summer mostly with hikers and in winter mostly with skiers.
> 
> More problematic are stations which are in the middle of agricultural areas and with little population nearby.


:hmm:... ... ...well, in that sense, yes, the area would benefit from tourists, yes, they´d have a much easier access.
But you know, there´s no ski resort in the surroundings, and the low season there is really low (deep, I´d say). 
It really is a place to lose yourself.

We haven´t seen the Sanabria station project yet (it shouldn´t take very long until the plan surfaces, if it must), but in any case, it would be simple.
Otherwise, there would be rantings in many places of Spain, you don´t want a _HSR-port_ of a station that cost millions.

And yes, it is a popular trip from Madrid and other areas. We´ll see, though.
Now the priority is Zamora. After that is done, then it comes Sanabria.


----------



## Sunfuns

We'll see soon enough I guess... I'd only like to add that Renfe alone can not make it work for a place like this, it would need a good coordination from local authorities, bus companies, local businesses etc. It will be a failure if people discover that the only reliable way to the nearby attractions is by car... There wouldn't be a need for many trains to stop there, but one or two a day wouldn't work either. 

By the way do you know if there will be any connections with the classical line between Zamora and Ourense? I was just wondering if it will be possible to open the rest of the line in piecemeal or it will have to be in one go.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> We'll see soon enough I guess... I'd only like to add that Renfe alone can not make it work for a place like this, it would need a good coordination from local authorities, bus companies, local businesses etc. It will be a failure if people discover that the only reliable way to the nearby attractions is by car... There wouldn't be a need for many trains to stop there, but one or two a day wouldn't work either.


I´m less optimistic about it than you. :sly: 



Sunfuns said:


> By the way do you know if there will be any connections with the classical line between Zamora and Ourense?


When the line is finished, there won´t be any, except for one of the tubes at the Padornelo tunnel.



Sunfuns said:


> I was just wondering if it will be possible to open the rest of the line in piecemeal or it will have to be in one go.


In one go would be the best option in any case.
In particular, since services Puebla de Sanabria-Ourense and Puebla de Sanabria-Zamora-Valladolid have been cancelled.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> In particular, since services Puebla de Sanabria-Ourense and Puebla de Sanabria-Zamora-Valladolid have been cancelled.


You mean a local service? I checked and there are still two trains a day stopping en-route from Madrid to Santiago. 

Actually this kind of situation annoys me a lot (in many countries). What is the point of having only two trains a day, both in the afternoon? Very few people will use them. In my opinion you should either have a train connection with a decent regularity or decide that for a particular location it doesn't make sense and replace it with a bus service.


----------



## alserrod

It is our real nightmare in the low-density areas.

No people, no trains.
No trains, no passengers...


----------



## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Tardienta-Huesca HSL (and Zaragoza-Tardienta-Lleida classic line)*.

Bridge over river Ebro, between Miraflores and San Juan de Mozarrifar stations, in Zaragoza.
The bridge allows two tracks through it, one for the HSL, the other for the classic line.
On the second picture, you can see the old single-track viaduct, abandoned.
The HSL is the track on the left (you can tell because the overhead wires are different).



zoltan said:


>


----------



## alserrod

Nice pictures but... old ones.

I would state that 2006 or older

This is google maps image for 2007
https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.650942,-0.8532&spn=0.001892,0.009484&t=h&z=17

In the last picture we can see old bridge for railway (single track one).
When the new bridge was built, it was supposed to keep it. They didn't know what to do with it. It was useless but in a city where the river has been always a "knife" in the middle of it, all bridges have been appreciated.

The HSL was opened in December 2003 and classic line trains opened that bridge before in its track.


After several years when they noticed that had non-sense to keep an old bridge close to current one (railway), near a street one (3x3 + pedestrians + bike lane)... this old bridge was destroyed.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Seville HSL (& Madrid-Ciudad Real-Mérida-Badajoz classic line).*
*Puertollano station.*



Reivajar said:


>


^^
Puertollano station, seen from the air (well, just the south side of it).

Looks like the fifth track counting from right to left on the pic, is going to have the gauge changed to standard. Works are just about to start, if they haven´t already.

That will leave Puertollano station with just two platforms for classic rail in Iberian gauge (but that will do), but three platforms for HSR, instead of the current two.

The goal of the gauge change on that track is that at certain hours there might be a bit of a problem, since one platform is occupied by the Avant Madrid-Puertollano, so there´s only one other platform left for trains to call at. 

This change of gauge will increase capacity and reliability on the HSL.


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL*.

Works on the Estépar tunnel (located between Burgos and Venta de Baños, but closer to Burgos) have started.
It will be made by the cut & cover method.



agargi said:


>


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## 437.001

*Venta de Baños HSR triangle*.

This is where the HSL coming from Madrid and Valladolid splits in two, one branch heading northeast towards Burgos, Vitoria, Bilbao and Hendaye, another northwest towards Palencia (and Santander), Leon (and Ponferrada), and Oviedo and Gijon.

A map of the triangle:

-Left, towards Valladolid and Madrid.
-Top right, towards Palencia and Leon (and beyond).
-Bottom right, towards Burgos (and beyond).



jotaerre said:


>




The Palencia side of the triangle:

-top, for Palencia and Leon.
-bottom left, for Venta de Baños, Valladolid and Madrid.
-bottom right, for Burgos.



Fruela said:


>




The Valladolid side of the triangle:

-centre left, for Burgos.
-bottom left, the two tracks for Palencia and Leon, each on a flyover over the classic line.
-top right, classic line and HSL for Venta de Baños, Valladolid, and Madrid.



Fruela said:


>




The Burgos side of the triangle:

-top centre, for Burgos.
-bottom left, for Palencia and Leon.
-bottom centre, for Venta de Baños, Valladolid, and Madrid.



Fruela said:


>


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## dimlys1994

Hello everyone, so what's up on the Atocha-Chamartin HSR tunnel. Still on track for completion?


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## 437.001

It´s a bit delayed.
The tracks between Atocha and Torrejón de Velasco junction are not laid, and the electrification on that section hasn´t started yet. 
That´s crucial for the Atocha-Chamartín tunnel, since there won´t be any other connection to any other track till that point.


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## dimlys1994

^^What a sad news really. But patience costs everything


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## 437.001

Well, not sad, actually. It´s just that we´re in crisis, so we need to control spending.
We have quite a few HSLs in works, so there is no way that we can do everything in one go.


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## dimlys1994

Is there any news about fit-out of Atocha underground platforms? And how it will look like in the end? What I know that underground level will have 4 platforms, but I can't find fit-out design. And the same question for overground platforms for Chamartin


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## 437.001

*Basque "Y" HSL.*

River Deba viaduct.



BPT said:


>


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## 437.001

dimlys1994 said:


> Is there any news about fit-out of Atocha underground platforms? And how it will look like in the end? What I know that underground level will have 4 platforms, but I can't find fit-out design. And the same question for overground platforms for Chamartin


No news yet.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL (Olmedo junction-Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería-Ourense-Santiago de Compostela)*.
Section *Pedralba de la Pradería-Ourense*.

Welcome to the coldest and most beautiful part of the whole HSL... :naughty:



elburgo said:


> _(translation into English by *437.001*)_
> 
> The two tunnel tubes at Vilavella, seen from the Zamora side.
> On top, *A Mezquita-Vilavella* station of the classic line, nearly perpendicular to the HSL (you can see a warehouse of the station, restored).
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> The two tunnel tubes of O Espiño, seen from the Ourense side.
> They start from the A Gudiña-AV station, and 8.9km later they end in these portals. On the right, on a higher level, *Vilariño de Conso-A Capela* station of the classic line. On that hillside are deposited the materials extracted from both tunnels.
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> Exit towards Ourense of the *Vilariño de Conso-A Capela* station.
> On a lower level we can tell the HSL platform and at the end on the left, we can guess the twin portals of the Bolaños tunnels, seen from the Zamora side, 6.8km long. Seems that both will be bored with a TBM. There seems to be room enough for setting a TBM in there.
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> Still *Vilariño de Conso-A Capela*. This is a zoom of the bottom right of the picture above. Lots of activity, machinery and vehicles.
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> *Vilariño de Conso-A Capela*. The grandness of the Sierra of Ourense with the river Camba reservoir in hindisght:
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> *Vilariño de Conso-A Capela*. Five blue lorries came in caravan and deposited what came out of the tunnels.
> Other machines try to lay it on that filling, that will change the look of the area.
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> Lots of movement in all the sections.
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> Regards


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## 437.001

*Basque "Y" HSL.*

River Deba viaduct.

A time sequence of the work done these last three months:



BPT said:


> *27-Sept-2013*
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> *12-Nov-2013*




Piers 1 to 5 are finished. Pier 6 is under construction. Pier 7 hasn´t been started yet. The highest piers (nearly 100m) will be piers 6 and 7.



BPT said:


>


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## franciscoc

another example of the waste of high speed in Spain, instead of making a change in the pipe carrying a water transfer, make a steep ramp to high-speed trains and freight trains


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## Suburbanist

^^ In fairness, if it is a gravity aqueduct running without pressurization, it would require a pump station to take care of it.


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## stingstingsting

^^ That seems like quite a ridiculous solution but hmm maybe it was cheaper to do it this way? hno:


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## arctic_carlos

And what about building the HSL a few meters below the pipe? The ramp wouldn't have been so steep and a tunnel wouldn't have been necessary. But anyway, the viaduct has already been built.


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## Reivajar

^^ It is because that's a flood zone.


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## Sopomon

^^
So with all these revelations, it makes sense that it was built the way it was


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*.
*Section Olmedo junction-Zamora*.

Pictures taken between Olmedo junction and Medina del Campo-AVE station.

First rails and catenary poles in place!!! :banana:



elburgo said:


> (_translation into English by *437.001*_)
> 
> Yesterday it was a foggy day in the Valladolid province.
> 
> _Olmedo junction: the current single track branch between the Madrid-Valladolid HSL and Medina del Campo station, which in fact is the surviving part of the old Medina del Campo-Segovia line, closed in the early 1990s. In this sector, the new HSL will be just the doublé-tracking of the current line. We can tell in the pictures the new track, not electrified yet (as a footnote, the new poles are dark Green, while the old ones are blue, tat will help you telling which are which)._
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> _Junction at the gauge-change machine. The current track and its catenary divert to the right, like the old Segovia-Medina del Campo has always done. The new platform (the real start of the Galicia HSL, actually) diverges to the left. It it, the double track is already in place till future Medina del Campo HSL station, some 20 km. On the pics, the Works trains are on track 1._
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> _We´re at the point in which the Medina by-pass will start. To our left, trains will not only be able to carry on to Madrid, but also to Valladolid and beyond (namely, the Basque Country, and also Zaragoza/Barcelona via Burgos). To our right, trains will run towards Zamora (and on towards Corunna, Vigo, Lugo and Ferrol), and also towards Salamanca (by means of a new branch including a new gauge-change machine). The fences allow you to tell the shape ogf the future platforms.
> One of the pics includes a way out of the HSL for wildlife. In hindsight, the current Segovia-Medina classic line, with blue poles._
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> _At Pozal de Gallinas, between Olmedo junction and Medina-AVE.
> We can see the double track. Foundations for catenary poles are being finished._
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> _Medina del Campo-AVE. Road bridge for the Medina del Campo to El Campillo road, located at the end of the station towards Zamora. We can tell the Works for the platform of the Salamanca branch, with the Zamora HSL in hindsight, in the fog. Will this be the location for the gauge-change machine for the Salamanca trains?_
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> _The HSL towards Zamora and Galicia past Medina del Campo-AVE.
> We can see the right track and some catenary poles._
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> From here on, the HSL got lost in the Castilian fog, sorry for that... :dunno:
> 
> Regards. :wave:


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*.
*Section Olmedo junction-Zamora*.

Pictures taken between Olmedo junction and Medina del Campo-AVE station.

Some pictures of more or less the same areas than the post above ^^, but without the fog. 



Fruela said:


> At km 6,500:
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> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.760039747348949.1073742034.592265530793039&type=1


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Sants station*.

Five days left. 



airoviedo said:


>


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon (-Oviedo) HSL.
Section Palencia-Leon.*

They have started laying the sleepers:



Fruela said:


> http://www.diariodeleon.es/noticias/leon/boe-comienza-oficializar-grandes-contratos-alta-velocidad_850851.html


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Pedralba de la Pradería-Ourense.*

A photo of the two tubes of O Espiño, taken from the Ourense side of the future *A Gudiña-AV station*:



BPT said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Sants station*.

Three days left. 



Vignole said:


> http://www.transport.cat/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7395&start=1580


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## gincan

Coccodrillo said:


> Is there any chance that Medina AV station will be postponed because they understood that *building it on the intersection with the classic line would be more intelligent*?


ROFL LOLZ ROFL :nuts:

Intelligent, strategic and coordinated infrastructure planning in this country is non existant, this is Spain after all...


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> ROFL LOLZ ROFL :nuts:
> 
> Intelligent, strategic and coordinated infrastructure planning in this country is non existant, this is Spain after all...


You are Spanish, aren´t you?


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## Reivajar

Well, I think French RFF is planning to move Lorraine TGV station to another close location for allowing exchanges with the TER services... so, it is not only a Spanish singularity. 

France and Spain are not that different :crazy:


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## gincan

437.001 said:


> You are Spanish, aren´t you?


And?

Being critical of the way infrastructure planning is being handled in this country is something I think is the duty of every self respecting citizen.


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## Reivajar

Anyway, for a good optimization of the infrastructure the good location for the station would be at the intersection with the conventional line, that's fore sure. We'll see, but by now it seems that it gonna be placed in another location.


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## Patryk

I see TGV train on the station ... Is already run direct trains from Paris to Barcelona?


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## Reivajar

^^ Nope, starting tomorrow. But they have been testing commercial services since november. That's why TGVs and AVEs have been running regularly between both countries during last weeks.


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## alserrod

Patryk said:


> I see TGV train on the station ... Is already run direct trains from Paris to Barcelona?


As said... tomorrow (Sunday 15th) morning starts.

Twice per day, daily.


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## 437.001

*NEWS*

According to some inner Renfe and Sncf sources, from March 31 there are reservations made for the following paths in France (and Switzerland):

-4 paths Perpignan-Paris (Gare de Lyon)
-2 paths Perpignan-Lyon (Part Dieu)
-1 path Perpignan-Geneva (Cornavin)
-2 paths Perpignan-Toulouse (Matabiau)
-2 paths Perpignan-Marseille (St Charles)

It is still not clear that all of these paths will be used. The Geneva paths could be postponed again until the end of the reelectrification Works in the section Bellegarde-Geneva. 

The paths to Toulouse and Marseille would be coupled between Perpignan and Barcelona or Madrid. They may include stops at Camp de Tarragona and/or Zaragoza-Delicias (or maybe not, it´s unclear).
The path to Geneva would be identical to a path to Lyon, but adding a stop at Bellegarde and another at Geneva (Cornavin).


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## Patryk

> As said... tomorrow (Sunday 15th) morning starts.
> 
> Twice per day, daily.


^^Ah yes. Today is changing schedule of trains all over Europe. In the Polish television was also reporting about this direct connection And what about Paris - Madrid? Will be direct train in the future?


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## alserrod

Patryk said:


> ^^Ah yes. Today is changing schedule of trains all over Europe. In the Polish television was also reporting about this direct connection And what about Paris - Madrid? Will be direct train in the future?


Today both Paris-Barcelone have a link to Zaragoza and Madrid within 20 minutes or less in Barcelone. I would focus services not in direct trains but in better connections from Barcelone to other cities (there are some destinations where one travellere should wait for a long time and that makes no sense to take the train. For instance, let's remember that Barcelona and Malaga have two daily connections which could make the direct train full HSL in Europe, isn't it?)

Today:
2 Barcelone-Paris
1 Barcelone-Toulouse
1 Barcelone-Lyon
1 Madrid-Marseille

To my best knowledge, situation in April could change to this one:

2 more trains (up to four) to Paris
1 more train to Toulouse and Marseille (could be the same one and separating them in Montpellier)
1 more train to Lyon
and... 1 more train to Geneva


Should they start in Barcelone or some of them in Madrid. Should trains starting in Madrid will make calls before Barcelone is completely unknown.


In this thread (in Spanish) there is more information

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1667033&page=14


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## x-type

is only SNCF stock going to roll on those new HS lines, or we could soon see RENFE (AVE) too?


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## Reivajar

x-type said:


> is only SNCF stock going to roll on those new HS lines, or we could soon see RENFE (AVE) too?


For the international services every company provides 10 trainsets, so both, TGVs 2N2 and AVE S-100F will be used but on different routes: TGV 2N2 for the Barcelona-Paris services and AVE S-100F for Madrid-Marseille, Barcelona-Toulouse and Barcelona-Lyon services.


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## alserrod

x-type said:


> is only SNCF stock going to roll on those new HS lines, or we could soon see RENFE (AVE) too?


As has been said, both and management of service is "on cooperation".
This is, several trains have been approved to drive over all tracks, either SNCF or RENFE trains. 
It will be a joined policy to decide which train goes to each line.


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> For the international services every company provides 10 trainsets, so both, TGVs 2N2 and AVE S-100F will be used but on different routes: TGV 2N2 for the Barcelona-Paris services and AVE S-100F for Madrid-Marseille, Barcelona-Toulouse and Barcelona-Lyon services.


At least till March 2014, they will be TGV Dasye, not TGV 2N2.


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## JumpUp

Are you sure about TGV Dayse going to Barcelona? I thought they were only able to go to Figueras and no further?

Now they need to use the the ten new TGV 2N2 Trails?


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## x-type

interesting choice AVE S100. is there some particular reason why is that class chosen? i'd expect Velaro for that service.


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## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> Are you sure about TGV Dayse going to Barcelona? I thought they were only able to go to Figueras and no further?


Yes, the TGV Dasye are the ones that are doing the Barcelona-Paris service.
Do do want me to post a picture of it, just to prove it, or do you believe me already? 



JumpUp said:


> Now they need to use the the ten new TGV 2N2 Trails?


Maybe they just don´t have the lot of them yet, or maybe they´re not homologated yet.


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## Coccodrillo

x-type said:


> interesting choice AVE S100. is there some particular reason why is that class chosen? i'd expect Velaro for that service.


The Velaro cannot run on 1.5 kV DC (only on 25kV AC), while the S-100 were built for both 3 and 25 kV, so adapting them to 1.5 kV was easy. Initially RENFE planned to order new trains.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> The Velaro cannot run on 1.5 kV DC (only on 25kV AC), while the S-100 were built for both 3 and 25 kV, so adapting them to 1.5 kV was easy. Initially RENFE planned to order new trains.


Indeed. 
Initially Renfe had ordered to Alstom 10 TGV Duplex (I guess they were TGV 2N2-3UH).
But the order was cancelled because of the crisis, so they decided to modify 10 AVE S-100 (all of the ex-S101 plus some more).


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## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> Are you sure about TGV Dayse going to Barcelona? I thought they were only able to go to Figueras and no further?





437.001 said:


> Yes, the TGV Dasye are the ones that are doing the Barcelona-Paris service.
> Do do want me to post a picture of it, just to prove it, or do you believe me already?


Here´s proof that it´s a TGV Dasye.

A TGV leaving *Girona station* bound for Paris-Gare de Lyon yesterday:


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## 437.001

Arrivals at *Madrid-Puerta de Atocha* yesterday:



Manamer said:


>


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## 437.001

Arrivals at *Girona* yesterday. :crazy:



UT596001 said:


>


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## 437.001

Photos from yesterday.

At *Barcelona-Sants*, a TGV bound for Paris-Gare de Lyon:



estaca83 said:


>




At *Girona*:



estaca83 said:


> TGV en Girona. Llegó con +4 hno:




At Girona. The screens definitely were not working very well... :crazy:



estaca83 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Montpellier-St Roch* station, I suppose. The screens weren´t working very well, either... (calling two times at Figueres-Vilafant... :crazy:



Reivajar said:


>


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## x-type

Coccodrillo said:


> The Velaro cannot run on 1.5 kV DC (only on 25kV AC), while the S-100 were built for both 3 and 25 kV, so adapting them to 1.5 kV was easy. Initially RENFE planned to order new trains.


oh, i forgot about 1,5 kV gap at southern France.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
*Barcelona-Sant Andreu Comtal station*.

An AVE S-100 on a test run Toulouse-Barcelona, on December 12 2013.



voltrega62 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
*Llinars del Vallès viaduct*, over motorway AP-7 and river Mogent.

A TGV Paris Gare de Lyon-Barcelona Sants, served by a TGV Dasye:



voltrega62 said:


>




An AVE Madrid Atocha-Figueres Vilafant, served by a Siemens Velaro S-103:



voltrega62 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Sants station*.

The first TGV Barcelona Sants-Paris Gare de Lyon ever, departing Barcelona for Paris on December 15 2013:


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Puerta de Atocha station*.

An AVE waiting to depart for Marseille.


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## 437.001

*Mollet junction*.

This is the point where the freight trains coming from France must leave the HSL for the classic Mollet-Castellbisbal line on their way to Barcelona (and in the not so distant future, further south in Spain).

A few trainspotters looking at trains on the first day of the new France-Spain HSR service (and filming and taking pictures, needless to say), from a footbridge between Mollet and Sant Fost over river Besos.

Cast:

-09:30 AVE Figueres Vilafant-Madrid Atocha (Siemens S-103)
-09:35 TGV Barcelona Sants-Paris Gare de Lyon (Alstom TGV Dasye)
-09:55 AVE Madrid Atocha-Figueres Vilafant (Siemens S-103)
-10:40 AVE Barcelona Sants-Toulouse Matabiau (Alstom S-100)
-11:20 Talgo Mare Nostrum Montpellier-Cartagena (last service from beyond Barcelona) rushing through Mollet-Sant Fost station on the classic line, seen from the same point as the other trains.
-11:35 AVE Marseille St Charles-Madrid Atocha (Alstom S-100)
-11:45 AVE Barcelona Sants-Perpignan (Alstom S-100), special service for the inauguration (with the ministers Ana Pastor and Frédéric Cuvillier inside, MPs, journalists, and etc...)


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## M-NL

Coccodrillo said:


> The Velaro cannot run on 1.5 kV DC (only on 25kV AC)


Given the way a modern traction system works (AC=>DC=>AC) and the fact that the ICE3-M on which the Velaro-E is based is multi-system, I don't think it would be that difficult to make a Velaro-E run on 1.5 kV DC. If it's worth it to actually do so, is another matter.


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## dimlys1994

Today on Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/adif-to-split-into-high-speed-and-conventional-businesses.html
> 
> *ADIF to split into high speed and conventional businesses*
> 18 Dec 2013
> 
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> 
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> SPAIN: Meeting on December 13, the Spanish cabinet approved legislation to split infrastructure manager ADIF into two companies, one responsible for the 1 435 mm gauge high speed network and the other for the 1 668 mm and 1 000 mm gauge routes used by conventional services.
> 
> As well as complying with European Union ESA 2010 accounting regulations that are due to be implemented from September 2014, the creation of a separate high speed business would, according to the Ministry of Development, improve efficiency as the passenger market is opened up to competition and place public funding of railway infrastructure on a sounder footing. Taking on debt relating to the construction of high speed lines, ADIF Alta Velocidad would be responsible for new projects, deriving its funding from access charges and other sources.
> 
> As well as access charges paid by train operators for use of the conventional network, ADIF would be funded by government grant classified as public spending under the new accounting rules, 'but without a significant impact' on the government deficit, according to the Ministry of Development.
> 
> A single corporate structure is to be maintained, with the ADIF President and Board Secretary holding the same posts at ADIF Alta Velocidad, thereby keeping the total number of directors the same. The legislation also makes provision for ADIF Alta Velocidad to contract out certain activities to ADIF, such as train control, maintenance, security and corporate functions.


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## zilze

^^I like the shape of this train, the external features look pipped up.


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## Reivajar

It is a prototype designed by Caf named Oaris. It can reach 350 km/h.

It was delivered to Renfe as substitute of the last train of the 120.500 series, for being tested by the national company on rails. For Renfe it is the 105 series.

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/CAF_Oaris
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Oaris


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## timo9




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## 437.001

*Fastest direct travel times to French and Spanish regional capitals from Barcelona:*

-BCN-Tarragona: 30min (parkway station) 
-BCN-Girona: 37min
-BCN-Lleida: 57min
*-BCN-Perpignan: 1h19*
-BCN-Zaragoza: 1h23
*-BCN-Carcassonne: 2h18*
-BCN-Castellón: 2h25
-BCN-Madrid: 2h30
-BCN-Guadalajara: 2h39 (parkway station)
*-BCN-Montpellier: 2h45*
*-BCN-Toulouse: 3h05* 
*-BCN-Nimes: 3h18*
-BCN-Valencia: 3h25
-BCN-Logroño: 3h40
*-BCN-Avignon: 3h41* (parkway station) 
-BCN-Ciudad Real: 3h42
-BCN-Pamplona: 3h45
*-BCN-Valence: 4h15* (parkway station)
*-BCN-Marseille: 4h17*
-BCN-Córdoba: 4h38
-BCN-Vitoria: 4h38
*-BCN-Lyon: 4h53*
-BCN-Cuenca: 4h58 (parkway station)
-BCN-Alicante: 5h04
-BCN-Albacete: 5h24
-BCN-Sevilla: 5h25
-BCN-San Sebastián/Donostia: 5h33
-BCN-Burgos: 5h34
-BCN-Malaga: 5h50
-BCN-Bilbao : 6h20
*-BCN-Paris: 6h25*
-BCN-Palencia: 6h41
-BCN-Valladolid: 6h46
-BCN-Murcia: 6h49
-BCN-León: 7h46
-BCN-Oviedo: 10h12
-BCN-Granada: 11h11 (night train)
-BCN-Ourense: 11h37
-BCN-Santiago de Compostela: 12h20
-BCN-Coruña: 12h52
-BCN-Lugo: 12h54 (night train)

Cádiz, Cáceres, Huesca, Huelva, Teruel, Santander, Almería, Jaén, Mérida, Badajoz, Salamanca, Zamora, Pontevedra, Toledo, Soria, Segovia and Ávila don´t have direct rail services from Barcelona.


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## arctic_carlos

I thought there were faster services from Barcelona to Valencia, just over 3 hours (besides the new non-stop service that takes only 2 hours 48 minutes).


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## alserrod

No, there is no HSL between Barcelona and Valencia.

With the coming upgrade, using the line to Madrid (till Tarragona), etc... they could have a 2 hours sevice.


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## arctic_carlos

alserrod said:


> No, there is no HSL between Barcelona and Valencia. With the coming upgrade, using the line to Madrid (till Tarragona), etc... they could have a 2 hours sevice.


I know it perfectly, I'm from Barcelona. And I also read this weekend in the Spanish forum that a new non-stop service has been introduced linking the two cities in 2 h 48 minutes, without stopping in Tarragona and Castellón.

Anyway, Euromed services stopping at these two stations link Barcelona-Sants and Valencia in roughly 3 hours, not 3 hours and 25 minutes. Maybe the mistake in the previous post comes from having used Barcelona-Estació de França as deprture station instead of the mostly used Barcelona - Sants.


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## alserrod

It could be.

If I had to make a guess, when Altaria services from Madrid had as terminus Estacio de França, in the web, the total time was until that station, not until Sants.


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## Reivajar

Well, technically the line between Vandellós and Castellón is not very different from the Madrid-Seville HSL. The difference is mostly due to the different electrification system (traditional 3000 V) which limits the top speed independently on the alignment and the existence of freight trains running on that line.


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## gincan

Reivajar said:


> Well, technically the line between Vandellós and Castellón is not very different from the Madrid-Seville HSL. The difference is mostly due to the different electrification system (traditional 3000 V) which limits the top speed independently on the alignment and the existence of freight trains running on that line.


The limiting factor is not the voltage, you can run a train at 300 km/h on 3000 V DC. There are streches between Tarragona and Valencia that could allow for higher speeds if the infrastructure was adequate. For example north of Sagunto the railway is practically dead straight and could allow for higher speeds. What you need to raise the speed limit is ETCS signaling system, higher tension catenaty and stabilizing the track for higher speeds. And also probably installing sound absorbing walls in populated areas.

Another thing is that even if you raised the max speed to 250km/h on all streches that geometrically allow for it, the accumulated time gain would be low, a few minutes at most.


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## Suburbanist

Discovery made a documentary on the high-speed crash


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## Reivajar

gincan said:


> The limiting factor is not the voltage, you can run a train at 300 km/h on 3000 V DC. There are streches between Tarragona and Valencia that could allow for higher speeds if the infrastructure was adequate. For example north of Sagunto the railway is practically dead straight and could allow for higher speeds. What you need to raise the speed limit is ETCS signaling system, higher tension catenaty and stabilizing the track for higher speeds. And also probably installing sound absorbing walls in populated areas.
> 
> Another thing is that even if you raised the max speed to 250km/h on all streches that geometrically allow for it, the accumulated time gain would be low, a few minutes at most.


Sure, there are three things which limits the speed on that line and makes the most important difference with the Madrid-Seville HSL: catenary, signaling system and track conditions which are optimized for the current speed limit. But all those things are relatively "cheaper" to change than a new track alignment.


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## alserrod

Quite, quite interesting Discovery documentary...


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Seville HSL (aka NAFA).*
*Perales del Río junction*.

In this place we find the junction between the Madrid-Seville HSL and the skip-Madrid by-pass between the Madrid-Seville and Madrid-Barcelona HSLs.

Next to it we can see the platform for the future access from Torrejón de Velasco juntion (where Madrid-Valencia/Alicante HSL currently ends) to Madrid Chamartín station and beyond (Valladolid etc).

On the second picture we get to see the Perales del Río tunnel.

Work on the new platform and the Atocha-Chamartín HSR link is halted.

Pictures from September 15 2013:



Manamer said:


>


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## alserrod

Some news about services given on board, starting December 1st.

AVE: on weekdays, 
Classes offered: Turista, Turista+, Preferente, Club
Turista+ is the same that Preferente but without services on board. Turista is Second Class, Preferente is first class and Club is Premium.


AVE: on weekends,
Turista, Turista+ and Preferente
All "Preferente" seats are offered as "Turista+"
All "Club" seats are offered as "Preferente"


Meals on board.

A new company is given meals services and cafeteria.

On weekdays, meal (it can be breakfast, snack, lunch, dinner...) is offered for Preferente and Club (Preferente, only one menu available, Club is "à la carte").

On weekends (and Christmas and Summer) no meal service is offered. Thus ticket price is cheaper.
Instead of meal service they have a cafeteria trolley over all seats. They will offer menus based on sandwiches, snacks, drinks and other food, as well as you can buy only one thing if you want (or nothing if you take your sandwich and drink from home, for instance).
To be accurate, only "cold sandwiches" are offered there. Should you want a "hot sandwich" you may go to the cafeteria in the train, ask for it and back to the seat (or stay there if you want).

The service is the same, never mind if Second class or First class.

So meal service is offered only on weekdays in AVE and Euromed.


Alvia trains has no longer meal services since December 1st.

Alvia that had that service... is gone.
Alvia that hadn't that service... now they have improved service because cafeteria offer is enlarged (compared with last one)


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## Suburbanist

Spanish HSL network has several branching junctions. I want to know whether is it possible to run straight direct trains on the following routes without reversing them at a further station:

* Malaga - Sevilla 
* Albacete - Valencia
* Toledo - Ciudad Real
* Medina del Campo (and everything west in the future) - Valladolid


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## alserrod

To my best knowledge, no one of them.

I asked about the direct Malaga-Seville and the reason is, building a new Seville-Antequera-Granada, will have nonsense direct one near Cordova.

On the other hand, I do not find any reason why Ciudad Real and Toledo are not linked. 
No need to built a branch or so. Enough with a station in La Sagra (junction) and "jump" from a Puertollano-Madrid to a Madrid-Toledo.


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Spanish HSL network has several branching junctions. I want to know whether is it possible to run straight direct trains on the following routes without reversing them at a further station:
> 
> * Malaga - Sevilla


Not yet (Antequera-Seville HSL under construction, but works halted), you have to reverse at Cordoba.



Suburbanist said:


> * Albacete - Valencia


Not yet, under construction.



Suburbanist said:


> * Toledo - Ciudad Real


No, and it´s not planned nor thought about.



Suburbanist said:


> * Medina del Campo (and everything west in the future) - Valladolid


Not yet, it´s planned but works haven´t started yet.


----------



## 437.001

:siren:

*News:*

*Albacete-Alicante HSL*

Test runs of the ETCS-2 between Albacete and Alicante will start on Boxing Day (or St Stephen´s if you prefer, December 26 2013).

Top speed between Albacete and Alicante will be increased to 300 km/h.

Travel times between Madrid and Alicante will decrease from 2h20min to 2h05min.

:banana:


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## M-NL

gincan said:


> The limiting factor is not the voltage, you can run a train at 300 km/h on 3000 V DC.


Technically yes, in fact it is used on 4 lines in Italy, but the EU will probably not allow it for new builds.


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## Suburbanist

M-NL said:


> Technically yes, in fact it is used on 4 lines in Italy, but the EU will probably not allow it for new builds.


However, there are drawbacks, especially if you want to run those lines with many trains pulling full power. It requires extensive additions of feeding points as the voltage drops a lot on sectors where many trains are circulating.


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## AlexNL

For high speed lines, 25 kV (or 15 kV if your country uses that) is preferable, for the reasons stated above.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Pictures taken between Zamora and La Hiniesta.



Aranou said:


> (_translated into English by *437.001*_)
> 
> Just outside Zamora, Valderrey bends.
> 
> Looking towards Ourense:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same place, looking towards Zamora:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overpass of road ZA-900 over the HSL, near La Hiniesta station.
> 
> Looking towards Zamora:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same place, looking towards Ourense:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Zamora, a false tunnel under future motorway A-11:


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## AlexNL

Is that a single track HSL? Or is the other track placed somewhere outside of the picture?


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## 33Hz

Look to the left in the top picture. Track bed.


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## Sunfuns

The track visible is the current classical line, right?

By the way are there some particularly interesting engineering structures between Zamora and Ourense? Any particularly long viaducts, spectacular bridges or long (more than 3-4 km) tunnels?


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## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> Is that a single track HSL? Or is the other track placed somewhere outside of the picture?





Sunfuns said:


> The track visible is the current classical line, right?


That´s a double-track platform, next to the classic main line. We still don´t know wether in this section will be installed double-track or not.



Sunfuns said:


> By the way are there some particularly interesting engineering structures between Zamora and Ourense? Any particularly long viaducts, spectacular bridges or long (more than 3-4 km) tunnels?


:drool: Yes...


----------



## Suburbanist

Famous rail blogger "Seat 61" released a video on the new TGV services to Barcelona


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL.*

Photos taken near Buniel, between Quintanilleja and Estépar stations.



jotaerre said:


>


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL.*

Photo taken near Buniel, between Quintanilleja and Estépar stations.



BPT said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Seville HSL.
Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches station (not opened yet).*

This new station is an old technical loop, just a bit upgraded.
It is located between Puertollano and Cordoba stations, but closer to Cordoba.
It´s been claimed for years by the inhabitants of the north of Cordoba province, and it´s finished, although its opening is being delayed once and again.

It has to be said that we Spanish SSC forumers don´t see much use to this station, since it´s located in a not very populated area.
At least, it´s quite a simple station anyway, not UFO-like at all. :sly:



> http://www.diariocordoba.com/noticias/cordobaprovincia/interminable-espera-tren_851598.html


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> By the way are there some particularly interesting engineering structures between Zamora and Ourense? Any particularly long viaducts, spectacular bridges or long (more than 3-4 km) tunnels?


Between Puebla de Sanabria (north of Zamora) and Ourense there are several tunnels with a combined length of around 70 km (summing up the values given by Ferropedia it is 68.193 metres, but that site doesn't give the length of a couple of tunnels).

There are 8 tunnels longer than 5 km, the longest being around 8.5 km. All of them are new, except the Padornelo tunnel, where if I understand correctly only one single track tube will be built new, while the existing Padornelo tunnel (which is wide enough) will have a standard gauge track and a broad gauge one.

Between Olmedo (and even Segovia) and Puebla de Sanabria there aren't many tunnels, none really long, while between Ourense and Santiago there are many short tunnels (most less than 1 km, longest 4 km). An 8 km tunnel is being built to link the new Vigo station, which will be on a stub branch of the Eje Atlantico.


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## pacman_1905

This is fantastic, given Spain's economic circumstances that they are still pushing ahead with these high-speed rail works. Well done. We are planning to visit Spain in 2015 so i will definitely catch one of these trains and experience the wonders of high speed rail!


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Seville HSL.
Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches station (not opened yet).*

Update: view of the platforms, with the old staff building (and a finger), I just can´t remember wether the new passenger building replaces this one or is just beside it.



Reivajar said:


> Source.


----------



## pacman_1905

gincan said:


> And?
> 
> Being critical of the way infrastructure planning is being handled in this country is something I think is the duty of every self respecting citizen.


At least Spain is building its high-speed rail. In Australia all they do is talk about it and have one study after another and nothing gets done!


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## Reivajar

In this pic from the other side you can see the older one (the bricked one on the right) and behind, the new one which is basically a large waiting and entry hall. As you say, a really simple and cheap building.


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## 437.001

pacman_1905 said:


> At least Spain is building its high-speed rail. In Australia all they do is talk about it and have one study after another and nothing gets done!


It´s different, fella.
Spain is the second biggest country in the EU after France (which is only slightly bigger than Spain).

On the other hand, Australia, Canada and the USA are huge countries with vast unpopulated gaps.

Of course, there are corridors which would allow for HSR in those three countries, but Australia and Canada are less populated than Spain, and in the USA the population is concentrated on the East and West coasts.


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Of course, there are corridors which would allow for HSR in those three countries, but Australia and Canada are less populated than Spain, and in the USA the population is concentrated on the East and West coasts.


I've never heard of any passenger rail proposals for Montana/Wyoming or leading to Alice Springs. Current proposals deal with reasonable corridors in high population density areas. Low population density of US in particular is overstated anyway. I checked and in fact there are 11 states (including NY, Florida and California) with population density higher than Spain.

Reason why nothing is likely to be built in the near future is general antipathy to public infrastructure spending and the fact that existing railways are mostly owned by private companies whose only interest is freight. 

Of course this is entirely off-topic and has nothing to do with Spanish HSR


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Reason why nothing is likely to be built in the near future is general antipathy to public infrastructure spending and the fact that existing railways are mostly owned by private companies whose only interest is freight.


:yes:



Sunfuns said:


> Of course this is entirely off-topic and has nothing to do with Spanish HSR


I know, I just fancied a bit of chatter.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

Twit containing a photo of the sleepers and ballast being laid near Toro, between Medina del Campo-AV and Zamora stations.



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> https://twitter.com/GrupoTrenZamora/status/417318262847045632/photo/1


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*
*Zamora station*.

The picture shows two Alvias crossing at the Iberian gauge platforms, while sleepers will very soon be laid in the three standard-gauge tracks.

Man, they are fast. :uh:



Fruela said:


>


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## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> *Madrid-Seville HSL.
> Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches station (not opened yet).*
> 
> Update: view of the platforms, with the old staff building (and a finger), I just can´t remember wether the new passenger building replaces this one or is just beside it.


A new "local" station on a HSL? What trains will stop there?


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> A new "local" station on a HSL?


So it seems.

This new Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches station will be, by far, the station in the least populated area of the country, until the Sanabria station opens on the Galicia HSL, but then again, future Sanabria station will have Bragança at a reasonable distance (across the Portuguese border, though). 



Coccodrillo said:


> What trains will stop there?


Good question... :dunno:


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon HSL.
Leon station.*

Future track scheme at the provisory station:



> *Red*: standard gauge.
> *Black*: Iberian gauge.
> *Yellow*: platforms.
> *Blue*: station building.





Robertinho said:


> León con cambiadores por Robertinho6, en Flickr


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Extremadura(-Lisbon) HSL.*
Section Cáceres-Mérida.

The platform has been finished in the area near Aldea del Cano.
It has also been fenced.

Pics from December 28 2013:



Manamer said:


>


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## Sunfuns

It's an academic question now, but I wonder if many years ago when it was decided on the route of Galicia HSL it was considered to skip Zamora and run more of the line together with the route to Leon? Something like Valladolid-Benavente-Ourense. Or even more radical Valladolid-Leon-Ponferrada-mid point between Ourense and Santiago. It wouldn't have increased the distance much if at all, but would have covered more population wise. 

Perhaps it runs into even more difficult geography than is already the case. I'm just playing with maps


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## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> It's an academic question now, but I wonder if many years ago when it was decided on the route of Galicia HSL it was considered to skip Zamora and run more of the line together with the route to Leon? Something like Valladolid-Benavente-Ourense. Or even more radical Valladolid-Leon-Ponferrada-mid point between Ourense and Santiago. It wouldn't have increased the distance much if at all, but would have covered more population wise.
> 
> Perhaps it runs into even more difficult geography than is already the case. I'm just playing with maps


You still have to build 50-60-70 km of tunnels regardless of going further north, just between León and Ponferrada you have to build 10-15 km of new tunnels and between Ponferrada and Ourense you have to tunnel the whole strech, easily 40-50 km of new tunnels and probably more if you want a proper HSR.

The cheapest solution I think would have been going through Portugal over Bragança but then you end up with the problem of who own the infrastructure, who will maintain it and who will control it.

Going through Portugal would also have meant a realistic chance of linking Madrid with Porto in under 4 hours.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> It's an academic question now, but I wonder if many years ago when it was decided on the route of Galicia HSL it was considered to skip Zamora and run more of the line together with the route to Leon?


That would have meant loads more tunnels.



Sunfuns said:


> Something like Valladolid-Benavente-Ourense.


Why Benavente when you have Zamora which is the head of the province, and it´s more populated?



Sunfuns said:


> Or even more radical Valladolid-Leon-Ponferrada-mid point between Ourense and Santiago.


That´s already caused a flamewar in the Spanish SSC forum. 
I think the Zamora option is better. And it´s also the least difficult one (no option was 'easy').



Sunfuns said:


> It wouldn't have increased the distance much if at all, but would have covered more population wise.


That would have meant loads of tunneling.



Sunfuns said:


> Perhaps it runs into even more difficult geography than is already the case. I'm just playing with maps


It does, indeed. Without entering Portugal, the Zamora-Sanabria-Ourense option is the least difficult (´cause there´s no 'easy' option).



gincan said:


> The cheapest solution I think would have been going through Portugal over Bragança but then you end up with the problem of who own the infrastructure, who will maintain it and who will control it.
> 
> Going through Portugal would also have meant a realistic chance of linking Madrid with Porto in under 4 hours.


In Wonderland, or in Oz, or even in the Middle Earth, yes.
But this is Spain doing things with Portugal we´re talking about. :sleepy:


----------



## Reivajar

^^ :lol:

Now, serourly, anyway, the route through Bragança (instead of going through Sanabria) was slighlty shorter, but not sure if it was cheaper. Topography around Bragança and Vinhais is really complicated, you have a big natural reserve between Bragança and the northern border with Spain... not sure if it could be better.

Furthermore, economics in Portugal are not exactly well... :|


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> ^^ :lol:
> 
> Now, serourly, anyway, the route through Bragança (instead of going through Sanabria) was slighlty shorter, but not sure if it was cheaper. Topography around Bragança and Vinhais is really complicated, you have a big natural reserve between Bragança and the northern border with Spain... not sure if it could be better.


Zamora-Bragança-Verín-Xinzo de Limia-Ourense would have made sense... IF Portugal had said yes.



Reivajar said:


> Furthermore, economics in Portugal are not exactly well... :|


...while Spain is bathing in a pool made of diamonds and silver, and full of liquid gold. :smug:


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## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Zamora-Bragança-Verín-Xinzo de Limia-Ourense would have made sense... IF Portugal had said yes.


Yes, absolutely. I would have loved that route... but if Portugal says no... what else you can do?


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## Sunfuns

It could very well be that the best option in terms of money spent was chosen. The reason I was wondering about those other routes is that they would have had more people living in the immediate surroundings of the line. Mostly because Valladolid is significantly larger than Zamora.


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## gincan

Reivajar said:


> Yes, absolutely. I would have loved that route... but if Portugal says no... what else you can do?


A long term planning is always better than a short term quick fix. This should have been part of a global Iberian transport plan. Other countries have drabbled border links for decades but once built they have always proven the best solution. 

The channel tunnel didn't happen over night, nor did the oresund link. I'm sure the European Union could get Spain and Portugal to cooperate better than in the past. It is all about political pressure.


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## Reivajar

gincan said:


> A long term planning is always better than a short term quick fix. This should have been part of a global Iberian transport plan. Other countries have drabbled border links for decades but once built they have always proven the best solution.
> 
> The channel tunnel didn't happen over night, nor did the oresund link. I'm sure the European Union could get Spain and Portugal to cooperate better than in the past. It is all about political pressure.


Sure... but in this case situation is different as in this case you are assuming the connection of a big part of a country (Galicia) depends on the cooperation with another country (Portugal), when there is another solution which depends only on the decisions and politics of the first country, and both alternatives are kind of the same considering the cost.

This wouldn't have been just an international connection, but making a national connection conditional to the needs of other country...


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## Sunfuns

I can understand Portugal not being interested in this case. All it would do for them is connect a small town in the remote Northeast with a capital of a foreign country...


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> I can understand Portugal not being interested in this case. All it would do for them is connect a small town in the remote Northeast with a capital of a foreign country...


Bragança has been always the most remote capital of mainland Portugal. And it lost its railway connection in the early 90's.

It is a small city, but probably the cheapest and most efficient way to connect it to Porto was through Ourense, Vigo and later going south by the coast.

As well, the area between Bragança and the coast is really mountainous.


----------



## gincan

Sunfuns said:


> I can understand Portugal not being interested in this case. All it would do for them is connect a small town in the remote Northeast with a capital of a foreign country...


This is the problem when there is no cooperation and coordination between countries. Let's say, Portugal and Spain had cooperatade on this one, being a part of a mixed use railway (250km/h) linking northern Portugal and the rest of the country with Europe. 

Galicia is not big enough to use all transport slots on the railway so there is plenty of space for passenger and freight trains from Portugal, you would have a new railroad betwen Porto and Branços linking up with this railroad, creating a corridor for all of Portugal through Castilla y León and further towards Europe. 

Spain build the railroad in Spain and Portugal build the part in Portugal. Both countries will benefit from this (more trains on the underutilized Spanish network) and you link the fourth largest urban area on the Iberian Peninsula with Madrid.


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## Reivajar

gincan said:


> Galicia is not big enough to use all transport slots on the railway so there is plenty of space for passenger and freight trains from Portugal, you would have a new railroad betwen Porto and Branços linking up with this railroad, creating a corridor for all of Portugal through Castilla y León and further towards Europe.


Where is Branços?


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Where is Branços?


Somewhere between Benimolinos, Alcáçar de Sâo Joâo, and Los Mangos de La Mancha Real Mayor. 
Thought you ought to know. :|


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## Sunfuns

gincan said:


> Galicia is not big enough to use all transport slots on the railway so there is plenty of space for passenger and freight trains from Portugal, you would have a new railroad betwen Porto and Branços linking up with this railroad, creating a corridor for all of Portugal through Castilla y León and further towards Europe.


Even with the current system Porto will be well connected with all major Galician towns (<3 h). Is the route from Vigo to Porto electrified? Probably not, but it could be...


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> Even with the current system Porto will be well connected with all major Galician towns (<3 h). Is the route from Vigo to Porto electrified? Probably not, but it could be...


Only from Porto to Nine, and later to Braga is electrified.

From Nine to Valença-Tui border the line should be improved, or even building a new one is feasible. But in the short time the conventional line should be updated. 

Building a new direct line from Porto to the inner part of the country could be really expensive.


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## gincan

Reivajar said:


> Where is Branços?


In Lothlórien of cause kay:


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> In Lothlórien of cause kay:


You is gettings wrong, *gincanball*. Lothlórien cannot into Iberian Peninsula.


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Only from Porto to Nine, and later to Braga is electrified.
> 
> From Nine to Valença-Tui border the line should be improved, or even building a new one is feasible. But in the short time the conventional line should be updated.
> 
> Building a new direct line from Porto to the inner part of the country could be really expensive.


The best Spain can expect from Portugal is that they electrify and upgrade the signalling between Nine and Valença do Minho.

That would greatly improve the travel time between Vigo and Porto, and even between Corunna and Lisbon.

And being optimistic, that they build the missing rail link between Evora and Elvas, electrified if possible. 

That would help quite a lot the construction of the Madrid-Badajoz HSL, since it would at last make sense.


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## gincan

437.001 said:


> You is gettings wrong, *gincanball*. Lothlórien cannot into Iberian Peninsula.


Hey, you're the one that spoke about Middle Earth, remember :banana:


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## Reivajar

Yes, absolutely... furthermore, the updating of the line between Mérida and Puertollano has only full sense if considering the freight trains coming from Portugal...

Anyway, the new line between Evora and Elvas should be a really cheap line to be built. Even cheaper than improving the stretch from Nine to Valença do Minho.


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Yes, absolutely... furthermore, the updating of the line between Mérida and Puertollano has only full sense if considering the freight trains coming from Portugal...


I think upgrading the line between Puertollano and Castuera (not Mérida, between Mérida and Castuera the line is in excellent state) makes sense, regardless of the Portuguese. 



Reivajar said:


> Anyway, the new line between Evora and Elvas should be a really cheap line to be built. Even cheaper than improving the stretch from Nine to Valença do Minho.


Er... no. 

It would mean an effort from them, but I think they´re only going to put money into that once we electrify Medina-Vilar Formoso and they´re convinced that we´ve actually electrified it.

And even in that case, they could go and say that they´re not building anything between Evora and Elvas...


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## Reivajar

^^ :lol:

For Portugal the priority is for sure Vilar Formoso, as it is the most direct link to Europe and it has a well balanced location between Lisbon and Porto.


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## 437.001

^^ Important news posted on the "Railways" section.


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> The best Spain can expect from Portugal is that they electrify and upgrade the signalling between Nine and Valença do Minho.
> 
> That would greatly improve the travel time between Vigo and Porto, and even between Corunna and Lisbon.


It might be possible to attract a significant EU funding for such a project. Cross-border infrastructure links is a popular subject these days.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> It might be possible to attract a significant EU funding for such a project. Cross-border infrastructure links is a popular subject these days.


Even if that means getting EU money, I doubt Portugal would use it much for this.


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## Sunfuns

Of course if they are not interested at all in improved rail links with Spain then it won't happen.


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## 437.001

Spain and Portugal have a strange relationship.
We are in good terms, but not in 'normal' terms like we do with France or others.
We do get on well, even very well, but to each his own. 
We tend to completely ignore their existence, and they tend to believe we´re just about to invade them.
And our psychatrist is lost for words. :lol:
It is the oldest European border.


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## Reivajar

^^ Well, our few terrestrial borders are pretty particular and different...

With France... ¿normal? Whatever normal is...
With Portugal... as normal as really old friends get along... 
With Andorra... Andorra is not a conventional country... LOL (aka Spanish offshore financial center :crazy: )
With UK in Gibraltar... for the Spanish government it is not a border, just a fence... :crazy:
With Morocco... for Morocco they are sort of occupied territories and even don't like the idea of having a Spanish commercial customs for international trade...

A great diversity considering Spain hasn't too many neighbors... 

:troll:


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## Sunfuns

Well, you did invade them once… :lol:


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## Reivajar

^^ Who? Spain to Portugal?


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## Sunfuns

^^Yes, wasn't there a single king for a while? Forgot which century...


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## Reivajar

Yes, from 1580 to 1640: Philip II, Philip III and Philip IV were kings of Spain and Portugal at the same time, but it was not through invasion, but because the Portuguese crown hasn't direct heir and the closest descendants where the Spanish kings, linked to the Portuguese royal family as Charles V got married with with a Portuguese princess.


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## 437.001

*AHEM, BACK TO TOPIC?*

 :clown:


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## Reivajar

---- END OF OFF TOPIC----

:angel:

:|


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon/Burgos classic main line and HSL.*
*Venta de Baños station* (which won´t open for HSR in the first phase with single track).

_Track scheme:_

*Red* and *gray*: classic line.
*Blue*: HSL
Left, for Valladolid. Top right, for Palencia and Leon. Bottom right, for Burgos.



Gusiluz said:


>


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## 437.001

^^
:bash:
We´ve already discussed the problem in the Pajares tunnels in other posts of this thread, and I think you´re taking things way over the top. 
This is an info from a newspaper, not anything coming from an official source, so its credibility is yet to be confirmed.


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## alserrod

source is linked, thus everybody can see it is not an official press release but a newspaper


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## Richard_P

^^But frankly I am reading this thread for a year or so and don't remember any clarification about why one bore of Pajares tunnel is OK while other is clearly botched. I am not an expert but regarding tunnels it isn't nothing unusual that water is sinking into tunnel but this on Pajares looks more like underground river was cut in half and during building no one bothered to properly address this problem just pushed with digging further. So if someone in short could explain to non expert like me how this happened that would be great.


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## Sunfuns

And if someone knows that would be interesting to also know if there are some serious proposals for a technical solution (other than digging a new tunnel).


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## alserrod

To my best knowledge... they just... do not know. That's all.

This is, they are planning to open the tunnel that hasn't any problem and will be a single track only.

That will require to update the security plan because it was ready to use one tunnel as a gallery for the other one in case of fatality.


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## Coccodrillo

Sunfuns said:


> And if someone knows that would be interesting to also know if there are some serious proposals for a technical solution (other than digging a new tunnel).


Boring a drainage tunnel with a smaller diameter (~3 m, compared to ~9 m for a full rail tunnel)?


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## 437.001

alserrod said:


> To my best knowledge... they just... do not know. That's all.


You are not the minister, so just don´t state things as facts when we don´t know the answer. 
Because we don´t, and certainly you don´t, either.

You are just quoting the content of an article you posted as if it were a fact, just because the pictures and video attached to it attired your attention.
And that´s no oficial statement at all.


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## Vaud

^^ why are you so rude? You should learn to write in a more friendly way to other forum users. Who cares if it's not an official statement? There obviously is a river flowing down there and I certainly do not see where lies the problem in sharing that information, be it official or not. It seems to me this is a serious problem, probably related to the planning stage, and will probably cost the spanish taxpayer a lot of resources to solve it and a lot of wasted resources if finally a whole tunnel has to be abandoned as an underground river, and I'm ignoring possible ecological consequences.


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## Reivajar

^^ By now, the immediate ecological consequence at least is the constant flow of water from the drier Duero basin in the South (León province) to the wetter Asturias region in the North; which starts to be a serious problem for some small villages in the León mountains which are losing their traditional sources of water.


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## gincan

This is the Abdalajís tunnel all over again, but this time it is much worse because the ecological consequences are far greater. In the Abdalajís case they still have not solved the problem that started 9 years ago and it doesn't look look like they ever will.

In the Abdalajís tunnel they managed to lower the water filtration from 600 liters per second down to 30 liters per second as it stand today. In the Pajares tunnel they have managed to lower the water filtration from 1000 liters per second down to 500 liters per second as it stand today but that is still an ecological disaster in the making hno:

This civil engineering work is a good example of everything that is wrong about the *spanish model* where to many chefs are cooking the stew, IE central government and local politicians with too much power and ambition interfering with the planning process. Excerpt from a news article in el País:



> Veníamos de hacer los túneles de Guadarrama, que salieron bien. Pero los Picos de Europa son mucho más complicados. En las obras del túnel de San Gotardo [57 kilómetros bajo Los Alpes] *estuvieron 10 años de estudios previos*. Aquí con unos meses pensaron que era suficiente


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## franciscoc

It is a 
real scandal. With what it cost just that tunnel (1.6 billion) could be spent on health or education that are under minimum by social cuts. It is an example of how politics in Spain have led the country to the situation that is.


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## Suburbanist

^^ This is a bad comparison between capital expenses and social current operational expenses. I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are different in nature: a railway, highway, airport, canal, electricity transmission line are permanent infrastructure that will serve the population for decades if not more than a century, so their nature is different than spending money in social services on a given year (and then you need the same money next year to provide services again).


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## alsama

Pajares


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

_Pictures taken near Toro:_



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

_A class 335 loco with a train carrying materials for the works:_



Fruela said:


> https://www.facebook.com/pages/V%C3%ADa-Libre-La-revista-del-ferrocarril/592265530793039?id=592265530793039&sk=photos_stream#!/photo.php?fbid=782966281722962&set=pb.592265530793039.-2207520000.1390048473.&type=3&theater


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## Sunfuns

I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...


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## 437.001

Because approaching Zamora (or Olmedo junction, can´t remember where this is) station you don´t need to run at 350 km/h, they´re using the classic line station, and a stretch of the classic line.

It´s a good question, since when you look in Google Maps you don´t find such a tight bend between Olmedo junction and Zamora.

I´ll ask again, I guess I´m wrong. Do not discard the zoom effect though.


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## 437.001

*update*

*Basque "Y" HSL*.

River Deba viaduct.



BPT said:


> *27-Sep-2013*
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> *27-Nov-2013*





BPT said:


> *16-Jan-2014*


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...





437.001 said:


> Because approaching Zamora (or Olmedo junction, can´t remember where this is) station you don´t need to run at 350 km/h, they´re using the classic line station, and a stretch of the classic line.
> 
> It´s a good question, since when you look in Google Maps you don´t find such a tight bend between Olmedo junction and Zamora.
> 
> I´ll ask again, I guess I´m wrong. Do not discard the zoom effect though.


Actually, I am not sure the location where that pic has been taken, but if anybody checks the line from Medina del Campo to Zamora, the design is pretty gentle and no tight curves can be observed.


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## Reivajar

According to a Spanish forumer, this is the place where the tight curves picture was taken...



BPT said:


> ^^ mirando la traza en google maps y bing, sólo hay dos puntos entre Olmedo y Zamora donde se de curva-contracurva. Uno es a la entrada de Zamora descartado porque en ese tramo va paralela la via actual y el otro a la altura de Fresno de la Ribera.
> 
> Apuesto por este ultimo desde el punto que indico:
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> El terraplen que se ve al fondo a la derecha es la A11.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...





437.001 said:


> I´ll ask again, I guess I´m wrong. Do not discard the zoom effect though.


It seems it was the zoom effect.

I´ve been told it´s this point that *Reivajar* shows^^, near Fresno de la Ribera. So yes, trains will run at speeds close to 300km/h here:


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## Sunfuns

Are you completely sure that is the right place? I'm aware that zoom effects could be drastic, but here I was comparing the length of the bend with a length of the work train as well as the size humans in the foreground and background. Considering that it doesn't seem to be much longer than the length of one long train… I was thinking that perhaps there is a station immediately outside the shot on the right side. In that case low speed on the bend would be no issue. If it's in the middle of fields then it's more difficult to explain...


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Are you completely sure that is the right place?


If it´s Fresno de la Ribera (and I´d say it is, but the zoom effect is tremendous), I´m certain that the speed will be of around 250 km/h or higher. 
Just look at Google Maps, do Google "Zamora" and follow the works of the HSL towards the East...



Sunfuns said:


> I'm aware that zoom effects could be drastic, but here I was comparing the length of the bend with a length of the work train as well as the size humans in the foreground and background. Considering that it doesn't seem to be much longer than the length of one long train… I was thinking that perhaps there is a station immediately outside the shot on the right side. In that case low speed on the bend would be no issue. If it's in the middle of fields then it's more difficult to explain...


There isn´t any other logical option, since all the other options (Zamora approach) imply that the classic line runs just next to the HSL.

And rails aren´t laid beyond Zamora...

And if it were near Olmedo junction, there is double track, so it can´t be between Medina and Olmedo junction.


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## Sunfuns

Yeah, I guess you are right. Still that is one mighty zoom effect if trains will be able to run there at 250 km/h


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Yeah, I guess you are right. Still that is one mighty zoom effect if trains will be able to run there at 250 km/h


Actually, this is a subject that we sometimes discuss in the Spanish forum whenever these kind of pictures of bends are posted. 

The zoom effect can really distort the real picture, so sometimes things like this can be a bit confusing.


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## parrocho

Sunfuns said:


> I wanted to ask this already before - why such a ridiculously tight curve on a high speed line? Trains will probably have to slow down to below 100 km/h. It's not apparent at all from the picture...


The picture was taken here:
https://goo.gl/maps/D85pW
View from east to west


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## StuZealand

gincan said:


> In the Pajares tunnel they have managed to lower the water filtration from 1000 liters per second down to 500 liters per second as it stand today but that is still an ecological disaster in the making hno:


Do you know what method(s) have been used to stop the water ingress? Injecting grout or something else?


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## alserrod

Wasting money


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo Junction-Medina del Campo AV-Zamora.



Fruela said:


> A freight train Vigo-Sagunto running next to the works:
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## gincan

StuZealand said:


> Do you know what method(s) have been used to stop the water ingress? Injecting grout or something else?


Injection

The problem here is that they have run the tunnel through an underground river rather than just some pockets of water, even if they managed to stop some of the water flow, it is basically endelss and will continue for ever until they rebuild the section of the tunnel that is leaking. This can only be done with super expensive nitrogen injection to freeze the leaking zone and then use water proof shotcreete, again very expensive.

This is what happen when things are rushed and not properly planned :bash:


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## Richard_P

gincan said:


> Injection
> The problem here is that they have run the tunnel through an underground river rather than just some pockets of water, even if they managed to stop some of the water flow, it is baically endelss and will continue for ever until they rebuild the section of the tunnel that is leaking. This can only be done with super expensive nitrogen injection to freeze the leaking zone and then use water proof shotcreete, again very expensive.
> This is what happen when things are rushed and not properly planned :bash:


Regarding that I've a question. I don't know method in which this section was done but using TBMs such water ingress shouldn't be possible as head under pressure should stop it and after tubes installation everything should be dry. Was there other method in use or TBMs pressure wasn't enough?


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## gincan

Richard_P said:


> Regarding that I've a question. I don't know method in which this section was done but using TBMs such water ingress shouldn't be possible as head under pressure should stop it and after tubes installation everything should be dry. Was there other method in use or TBMs pressure wasn't enough?


There is no such thing as a water proof TBM, they all leak water during construction, the only difference is that when you run through an underground river like they have done in this case, it become impossible to control the water inflow. To give you an idea, the number reported in media is 500 liters per second, at that rate you can fill an Olympic-size swimming pool in 1 hour and 20 minutes.

The problem is instead a lack of a proper geological survey, had they spent the time and money doing a proper investigation, they would have found the chosen route unsuitable, going for a different route. Fixing this now will cost hundreds of millions of euros when a thorough survey would have cost at most a few tens of millions.


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## Suburbanist

^^ Can't they build a water tunnel that takes the water out of the mountain into a reservoir?


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo Junction-Zamora.

_Class 335 loco on the HSL with a ballast train, near Monte La Reina, on Jan/19/2013_:



Fruela said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/afzamorana/


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon-Asturias HSL.*
Section La Robla-Pola de Lena (Pajares new line).

Excepting the Pola de Lena pictures, all the other images were taken between Campomanes and the Pajares tunnels.



neuromancer said:


> All images by *dawlad.*
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## gincan

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Can't they build a water tunnel that takes the water out of the mountain into a reservoir?


And when that one is full, then what do they do? Build another one? And then one more? Before you know it the whole of Asturias is full of reservoires to hold all the water. Remember, one olympic sized swimming pool (50x25x2) every 1,5 hours. Right now the water is dumped into the river that runs by the northern end of the tunnel.

And what about the rivers in Castilla y León that now have lost much of their natural water flow? When the spanish newspapers write that they have managed to reverse the water flow of the river systems north of León, they are not joking. 

Water that before was flowing from Picos the Europa into Castilla y León is now flowing into Asturias. This is playing God with the natural balance of the eco system. A major ongoing natural disaster that in part is the responsibillity of a man by the name of Francisco Álvarez-Cascos.

If you can read spanish, this news article shed some light into what Francisco Álvarez-Cascos was up to.

http://vozpopuli.com/actualidad/319...al-borde-de-la-imputacion-en-el-caso-barcenas


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## Suburbanist

^^ My idea was building a reservoir and then feeding the water into stream on the area. It is possible to even reverse the flow to Castilla again maybe.


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## StuZealand

gincan said:


> Injection
> 
> The problem here is that they have run the tunnel through an underground river rather than just some pockets of water, even if they managed to stop some of the water flow, it is basically endelss and will continue for ever until they rebuild the section of the tunnel that is leaking. This can only be done with super expensive nitrogen injection to freeze the leaking zone and then use water proof shotcreete, again very expensive.
> 
> This is what happen when things are rushed and not properly planned :bash:


The Swedish Hallandsås Tunnel and a tunnel in Norway had similar problems. The former was completed by freezing the soaking ground ahead of boring. The latter was done with chemical injections I think.

Hopefully something can be done in this case.


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## StuZealand

The Norwegian tunnel that I was thinking of is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romerike_Tunnel


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## Reivajar

StuZealand said:


> The Norwegian tunnel that I was thinking of is:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romerike_Tunnel


3000 l/min... mg:

Yes, kind of similar: political pressures, too quick to be diged, not properly plugged...


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## FM 2258

^^

Is that a diesel high speed train? I don't see any overhead wires.


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## Suburbanist

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Is that a diesel high speed train? I don't see any overhead wires.


It's a new line and they haven't installed electrification yet.


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## alserrod

There are diesel loco that can run up to 200 and change gauge. Quite cool for non electrified lines and using partially HSL


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## MarcVD

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> Is that a diesel high speed train? I don't see any overhead wires.


Special beast that you can encounter in Spain only. This is an electric high
speed train (you can see the pantos - although not raised - atop the first
and last vehicles of the rake) but for non electrified sections, there are two
special trailers, just near the locos, with a diesel prime mover and generator.


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## OriK

It's multi gauge (uic and Iberian and it changes the gauge without stopping), multi Power source (electricity and diesel) and multi voltage (25kV AC and 3kV CC). 

The commercial service is called Alvia.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.



Fruela said:


>


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## Sunfuns

Are the rails themselves produced in Spain? It's a serious quantity of iron for all the new railways recently built.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Are the rails themselves produced in Spain? It's a serious quantity of iron for all the new railways recently built.


I guess they must be, yes. From Asturias, probably. 
But I don´t really know, so I´ll ask, keep an eye for the answer in a while.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*

Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Are the rails themselves produced in Spain? It's a serious quantity of iron for all the new railways recently built.





437.001 said:


> I guess they must be, yes. From Asturias, probably.
> But I don´t really know, so I´ll ask, keep an eye for the answer in a while.


I confirm they´re made at ArcelorMittal (former Ensidesa) in Gijón, Asturias.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*

*Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

Works entering Zamora station:



> http://www.laopiniondezamora.es/zamora/2014/02/09/expropiados-ave-zamora-lubian-ganar/739347.html




*Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Viaduct over river Esla:



> http://www.laopiniondezamora.es/zamora/2014/02/09/expropiados-ave-zamora-lubian-ganar/739347.html


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*

Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
*Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

Ballast train entering Zamora:



Fruela said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

Images taken near Toro:



Fruela said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

Images taken at *Monte la Reina station* (on the classic line) and around it:



Fruela said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

Ballast train between Zamora and Coreses, with the very strange sight of a class 308 diesel running on standard gauge:



Fruela said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

Images taken near Monte la Reina:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

You may want to drool again at these two:



Fruela said:


>


:drool: A very old class 308 pushing the ballast train and smoking while the new class 335 is pulling on a straight HSL under construction, and a double class 730 Alvia on the bend of the classic line... :drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:



Fruela said:


>


:drool: The airplane, the train, the sky, the bends... :drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:

mg: :applause:


----------



## 437.001

*Basque "Y" HSL*.

River Deba viaduct.



BPT said:


> *27-Sep-2013*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *11-Oct-2013*
> 
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> 
> *12-Nov-2013*
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> *27-Nov-2013*





BPT said:


> *16-Jan-2014*





BPT said:


> *12-Feb-2014*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another take on the viaduct:


----------



## StuZealand

^^ I've never been to Spain and don't know its geography at all well.

I'm very impressed however, with all the rail expansion going on in your country. Thanks to everyone for posting so many pics of the works.

:cheers:


----------



## K_

What's the future of Barcelona França? It would appear that with the new infrastructure coming on line it won't really be needed any longer. Will it be put to other uses?


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## 437.001

Hopefully not.
But as of now, it is unclear wether it will still be needed or not.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.



Aranou said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*

*Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*



Aranou said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*

*Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*



Aranou said:


>


----------



## alserrod

For Easter, several extra trains will run over railways.

Extra Barcelona-Sevilla and Barcelona-Malaga (and vv) will run those days

In addition, the Barcelona-Ponferrada (and vv) using HSL Barcelona-Zaragoza will run several days. There are, obviously more trains there. Barcelona-Valladolid, Barcelona-Gijon and Barcelona-La Coruña/Vigo. This one it is just a supplement.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.
Barcelona-Sagrera station (under construction).*

A few trains filmed this morning:



carlesnuc said:


> AVE Barcelona Sants-Toulouse Matabiau, with an Alstom S-100F:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AVE Madrid Atocha-Figueres Vilafant, with a Siemens S-103:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AVE Marseille St Charles-Madrid Atocha, with an Alstom S-100F:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AVE Lyon Part Dieu-Barcelona Sants, exceptionally performed by a... TGV Duplex Dasye uh:


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.*

Images taken at *Can Tunis depot*, between *Bellvitge* and *El Prat de Llobregat* stations on the classic line, or between *Barcelona-Sants* and *Camp de Tarragona* stations on the HSL (both lines run parallel there).



carlesnuc said:


>





carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.
Barcelona-Sagrera station (under construction).*



carlesnuc said:


>





carlesnuc said:


>





carlesnuc said:


>


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## alserrod

Zaragoza - Delicias station spotted from platforms.

Away down, bus station and a 4 stars hotel on top


----------



## 437.001

*Valencia-Xàtiva-La Encina junction HSL.*
*Section Xàtiva-La Encina junction.*

Image taken somewhere between *Moixent* and *Vallada* stations:



> http://www.europapress.es/comunitat...lcudia-crespins-valencia-20140306150306.html#


^^
As you can see, here the HSL is already in service in Iberian gauge and under 3 kV, and is used as the classic main line.
The old main line is under reconstruction and double tracking (for now, only theoretical, but it´s likely that the second track will be installed in the future).
When the upgrade in the classic line is finished (it won´t take very long), the HSL will be closed to convert its gauge to standard and the electrification to 25 kV.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.



elburgo said:


> (_translated into English by *437.001*_)
> 
> Some 15 km west of Medina del Campo on the way to Zamora, that´s the end of the double track coming from Olmedo junction.
> Add to that 6 km of the approach to Zamora, and you´ll have 41 km of double track between Olmedo and Zamora more or less. And 54 km of single track. Possible crossing points at Medina del Campo and Toro. For now.
> 
> Looking towards Olmedo junction:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Zamora:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^(Parallel lines meet in the infinity.)
> 
> 
> 
> The foundations for of the catenary poles are visible:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings


^^ I *LOVE* the second picture. It feels like crossing Kansas or something.


----------



## bighomey3000

Are these openings still on schedule?

2014:

Vigo · Pontevedra · Santiago de Compostela	

2015:

Sevilla · Jerez de la Frontera · Cádiz

Valladolid · Venta de Baños · Palencia · León

Campo de Tarragona · Castellón · Valencia

Alicante · Elche · Murcia · Cartagena

Madrid · Talavera · Plasencia · Cáceres · Mérida · Badajoz


----------



## 437.001

bighomey3000 said:


> Are these openings still on schedule?


I wonder who informed you about that "schedule". :smug:



bighomey3000 said:


> 2014:
> 
> Vigo · Pontevedra · Santiago de Compostela


*2014:*

-some sections of Seville-Cadiz have been opened not long ago. Could be completely finished by the end of the year (or not), but this is not a HSL, it´s an upgrade of a classic line. The bits that won´t open this year will open in 2015.	



bighomey3000 said:


> 2015:
> 
> Sevilla · Jerez de la Frontera · Cádiz
> 
> Valladolid · Venta de Baños · Palencia · León
> 
> Campo de Tarragona · Castellón · Valencia
> 
> Alicante · Elche · Murcia · Cartagena
> 
> Madrid · Talavera · Plasencia · Cáceres · Mérida · Badajoz


*2015:*

-Olmedo junction-Medina del Campo AV-Zamora (on the Madrid-Galicia HSL) -on time.

-Santiago de Compostela-Pontevedra-Vigo Urzáiz -on time (we hope). It´s being opened by bits as it´s an upgrade and not a HSL proper. The bits that won´t open this year will open in 2015, except maybe the river Ulla viaduct and Vigo-Urzáiz station (which could open in 2016 if delayed -theoretically they´re both on time).

-Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon -could be on time, could be for early 2016, we´ll see, we don´t know yet.

-Antequera Santa Ana-Loja and parts of Loja-Granada -could be on time, could be for early 2016, we don´t know yet.

-Monforte del Cid-Crevillente (HSL) and Crevillente-Murcia (upgrade) -probably not on time, may open in 2016, but we´re not sure yet.

-Vandellòs-Camp de Tarragona -on time (not a HSL, but the connection of a classic upgraded line to a HSL).


----------



## Reivajar

Which will be the top speed on the Vandellòs-Camp de Tarragona line?


----------



## Reivajar

Some pics of the new high speed trains designed by the Spanish based rolling stock manufacturers.

Finally, on Monday 11th the prototype of *Talgo Avril G3* has been moved from the Talgo factory in Northwest Madrid to the high speed facilities in La Sagra. Rollbocks are used for that purpose as Talgo factory is only linked to the Iberian gauge network. In La Sagra it will be able to reach standard gauge tracks of the HSL Madrid-Seville and the rest of the linked high speed network for dynamic testing.


















In the background a Renfe 102 or 112 as well designed by Talgo running on the HSL.

And a video in the early morning of the train crossing the Valdemoro station.


neuromancer said:


>


_______________________________________________________


Furthermore, to compare, the "rival", the new generation of Caf high speed trains being tested while being based in La Sagra too: *Caf Oaris* or *Renfe 105 series*.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Which will be the top speed on the Vandellòs-Camp de Tarragona line?


You already know it, don´t you? :smug:


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## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> You already know it, don´t you? :smug:


200-220 km/h? Uhm? :nuts:


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> 200-220 km/h? Uhm? :nuts:


Correeeeect!! You´ve amazed me, wow, you know it all. :lol: :|


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.*

TGV 9702 Barcelona Sants-Paris Gare de Lyon, on March/04/2014.

Image taken near Sils (between Barcelona and Girona):



voltrega62 said:


>


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## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Btw, are those pictures yours? ^^ :sly:
> 
> (read the now-not-so-new forum rules about Flickr images before some mod does and deletes your post, you´ve been away for long and maybe you´re not aware of them yet)


Thanks!

Nope, they are not min at all, but usually I find and I use flickr pics (or any other third-party material) on national and international forums without problem as far as they are correctly copyrighted.

Anyway, where are those rules posted? :dunno:


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## 437.001

Don´t mind me on that, I was thinking about the photo forums (you know, the "SPAIN | One photo per post" threads and so on). Sorry. :clown:

You can take a look at them though, they´re in the Photos subforum.


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## JumpUp

Hey!

Talking about photos. I'd love to see photos of the Spanish High Speed Trains in service (not under construction).

Is there a photo Thread somewhere with excellent Spanish trains in their breathtaking scenery?


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## Suburbanist

where do trains to France change the track they travel on (from right to left)?


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## el palmesano

Adif International. We are leaders

86698391

We are ready. Adif Institutional

86887496

more videos:

http://vimeo.com/user13110272/videos/page:3/sort:date


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## AlexNL

Wow, both the new Avril G3 and the Oaris look great.


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## dirdam

Suburbanist said:


> where do trains to France change the track they travel on (from right to left)?



There is a flyover north of the border:










http://www.tpferro.com/en/General-characteristics


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## el palmesano

High Speed in the region of Murcia

49822663


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## skaP187

el palmesano said:


> High Speed in the region of Murcia
> 
> 49822663


Nice video!
Question the Alicante, Elche, Murcia part, is that part of the Mediterraneo line and if so there are planns for a higher speed train from Alicante to Valencia. ( Is already rather fast I believe)

Sad thing still is the strange hump to Cuenca, but I will get over it.
Maybe.


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## skaP187

437.001 said:


> -Monforte del Cid-Crevillente (HSL) and Crevillente-Murcia (upgrade) -probably not on time, may open in 2016, but we´re not sure yet.


Isn't this a complete new line? At some parts the lines go parallel, but never go to make one no, maybe at Orihuela but I doubt it to be hounest.


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## 437.001

skaP187 said:


> Nice video!
> Question the Alicante, Elche, Murcia part, is that part of the Mediterraneo line and if so there are planns for a higher speed train from Alicante to Valencia. ( Is already rather fast I believe)
> 
> Sad thing still is the strange hump to Cuenca, but I will get over it.
> Maybe.





skaP187 said:


> Isn't this a complete new line? At some parts the lines go parallel, but never go to make one no, maybe at Orihuela but I doubt it to be hounest.


You´re Spanish, aren´t you? 
Then you might as well ask that (and find out the answer) in the Spanish forum.

To other readers, the answer to the first question is "yes" and to the second one, "no".


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## 437.001

Two lines seen from the station of a third line:

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL* (on a spectacular viaduct) and *El Papiol-Barcelona Can Tunis freight line*, seen from *Cornellà de Llobregat station* (on the *Barcelona-Martorell-Sant Vicenç de Calders line*).



carlesnuc said:


>


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## 437.001

*Venta de Baños by-pass (for Burgos-Palencia), between Valladolid-Venta de baños-Burgos and Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSLs.*

Viaduct over river Pisuerga.



jotaerre said:


>


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## 437.001

*Villaluenga Yuncler-Villaseca Mocejón-Algodor line.
Villaseca-Mocejón station.*

The new Avril Talgo prototype, entering the La Sagra HS depot, probably for some tests.



neuromancer said:


> Talgo Avril por Ritxi_md80, en Flickr
> 
> 
> AVRIL a La Sagra por rubiogg4, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Villaseca y Mocejón. por Renfelipe, en Flickr


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Palencia station.*

The works at the station have started:



> http://www.diariopalentino.es/notic...041768/20140315/cuenta/atras/ave/ha/comenzado


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## alserrod

It will be a really nightmare for a while.

Palencia has only three platforms and another track without platform.

It is planned to have standard gauge in the two first ones (considering the main building), conventional gauge in the third one, and also in the fourth one (no possibility for passengers, only freight or so on).


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## 437.001

^^
For "conventional gauge" he means "Iberian gauge".


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

In hindsight we can tell the flyover of the *Olmedo junction*.

Only the track on the left is in service, since it connects with the classic branch line to Medina del Campo station and the classic line to Zamora and Salamanca (and Valladolid, just in case). The second track is not connected to the classic line, but both already have the electrification finished, apparently. 



elburgo said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
*Medina del Campo-AV station (under construction).*

_Images of the station and surroundings_:



elburgo said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

Images taken between the *Olmedo junction* and *Medina del Campo-AV*.



elburgo said:


> (_translation into English: *437.001*_)
> 
> Section through which runs the classic branch line (remaining spurt from the old classic Segovia-Medina del Campo classic line, closed between Olmedo and Segovia). The part of it that´s closer to the Olmedo junction is being doubletracked as part of the HSL. Now there is a point which leads to Medina del Campo classic line station, where the old classic line and the HSL diverge, and it´s currently used by the Alvias to Galicia. The section has dual gauge (the first in Spain, it started out as an experimental section).
> 
> Behind this platform can be seen the dual gauge Access to the Olmedo maintenance base. In said base there are points, ready to be installed on the line at the right time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Just at the beginning of the new HSL platform towards Zamora, past the point for Medina del Campo classic line station, we can see on track 1 a class 319 loco, owned by Continental.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The HSL crosses over the classic line through a viaduct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings


----------



## Sunfuns

Is it 7.8 million train traffic or 7.8 million overall market? The amount of traffic also depends on economic climate and wealth of inhabitants. Spain hasn't been in a rosy situation for some time now.


----------



## Suburbanist

Do these calculations of air travel market share properly exclude all connections, including those on code-shares where the airlines might inform the destination of the passenger was just the other airport?

Madrid is a global flight hub, and Barcelona is an European flight hub with decent intercontinental destinations as well. Both are large cities, so chances are many price-competitive tickets from/to one of two cities involve a connection through the other. A person who is travelling Barcelona-Madrid-Los Angeles (for instance) pertains to a different travel market than people travelling between both cities only. 

Now train travel might directly compete with connecting flights, but that only happens in larger numbers in airports with good long-distance train services like Frankfurt or Paris-Charles de Gaulle. 

This issue (misinformation about connecting flights)


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## Suburbanist

The challenge of managing capacity is lowering prices in a way that you don't bring down revenue for those paying higher ticket (e.g., managing the yield aka price discrimination - in the microecnomic sense)

Discount plans (which is what Renfe is doing indirectly with this 'pre-pay for travel credit and get discounts') are a way to do that. Putting some very cheap tickets on sale on the less busy trains is also a way to change the perceptions of 'train is expensive' (Trenitalia has been doing this with relative success last 3 years).


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## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Do these calculations of air travel market share properly exclude all connections, including those on code-shares where the airlines might inform the destination of the passenger was just the other airport?
> 
> Madrid is a global flight hub, and Barcelona is an European flight hub with decent intercontinental destinations as well. Both are large cities, so chances are many price-competitive tickets from/to one of two cities involve a connection through the other. A person who is travelling Barcelona-Madrid-Los Angeles (for instance) pertains to a different travel market than people travelling between both cities only.
> 
> Now train travel might directly compete with connecting flights, but that only happens in larger numbers in airports with good long-distance train services like Frankfurt or Paris-Charles de Gaulle.
> 
> This issue (misinformation about connecting flights)


In this sense, Barcelona airport is much better placed for taking advantage of the high speed line services than Madrid-Barajas airport.

Both are well connected to the cities and railway station through commuter trains and Metro (in the case of Madrid), but it is not planned for train+plane combined trips.


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## AlexNL

When arriving in Barcelona, can people simply hop on to a connecting Cercanías/Rodalies service (to reach a suburb or neighborhood) or do they have to wait for an hour? Is local public transport well-integrated? Can I book a cab or rent a car which will wait for me upon arrival in Madrid? The Renfe product may be great between Barcelona and Madrid, but if auxiliary services are less attractive people will seek alternatives that are more convenient to them.

Here in the Netherlands, Dutch Railways are working on increasing the value of the overall chain. On lots of occasions they offer bikes for rent (at very reasonable prices) and in an ever expanding number of stations people can rent cars for which they pay using their public transport smartcard. 

Facilities on and around station are worked on as well. ProRail is hard at work to make stations more attractive (by providing new, comfortable seats), free wifi is available at all intercity stations and in trains, and retail facilities at stations are ever-growing. People can buy coffee, clothes, food, whatever they want. At key locations such as Amsterdam Sloterdijk, Arnhem and many more places, NS have partnered with Regus to offer the NS Regus Station 2 Station service: flexible office space for rent at attractive prices where people can work and have meetings.

With the introduction of the nationwide public transport smartcard (the OV-chipkaart) it became possible to register how people travel. To cater for business users, NS is offering the "NS Business Card", one of the key features of the business card is that it allows for post-paid travel. Once a month an invoice is sent to the company tied to the Business Card, stating all trips made during the month. This reduces the burder which comes with the declaration of trips for both the passenger and the administration office. In Rotterdam, public transport operator RET has started a trial, offering post-paid payment to private customers. (Technically it should even become a possibility to determine if a season ticket would have been more interesting, but I am not sure if NS and RET are doing that or if they are planning to do so.)


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## 437.001

AlexNL said:


> When arriving in Barcelona, can people simply hop on to a connecting Cercanías/Rodalies service (to reach a suburb or neighborhood) or do they have to wait for an hour?


The current frequency to the Airport (T2) is one train every 30 min.
It depends wether the train is on the platform or not.

Metro L9 will son get there (to both T1 and T2). Politicians say by 2016.



AlexNL said:


> Is local public transport well-integrated?


Yes.



AlexNL said:


> Can I book a cab or rent a car which will wait for me upon arrival in Madrid?
> 
> The Renfe product may be great between Barcelona and Madrid, but if auxiliary services are less attractive people will seek alternatives that are more convenient to them.
> 
> Here in the Netherlands, Dutch Railways are working on increasing the value of the overall chain. On lots of occasions they offer bikes for rent (at very reasonable prices) and in an ever expanding number of stations people can rent cars for which they pay using their public transport smartcard.
> 
> Facilities on and around station are worked on as well. ProRail is hard at work to make stations more attractive (by providing new, comfortable seats), free wifi is available at all intercity stations and in trains, and retail facilities at stations are ever-growing. People can buy coffee, clothes, food, whatever they want. At key locations such as Amsterdam Sloterdijk, Arnhem and many more places, NS have partnered with Regus to offer the NS Regus Station 2 Station service: flexible office space for rent at attractive prices where people can work and have meetings.
> 
> With the introduction of the nationwide public transport smartcard (the OV-chipkaart) it became possible to register how people travel. To cater for business users, NS is offering the "NS Business Card", one of the key features of the business card is that it allows for post-paid travel. Once a month an invoice is sent to the company tied to the Business Card, stating all trips made during the month. This reduces the burder which comes with the declaration of trips for both the passenger and the administration office. In Rotterdam, public transport operator RET has started a trial, offering post-paid payment to private customers. (Technically it should even become a possibility to determine if a season ticket would have been more interesting, but I am not sure if NS and RET are doing that or if they are planning to do so.)


We´re going off-topic.


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## Reivajar

Commuter trains frequencies depend on the destination you look for, but usually in central areas of urban areas commuter train network got metro frequencies. For the airports is not that usual, but waiting time is not excesive. In Madrid C-1 line to the airport has trains every 30 minutes too. In Málaga is around 20 min. Furthermore, if you get an AVE ticket, using the commuter train in your origin and destination (if existing) is included "for free" in the ticket, so integration is good, at least for Renfe network.

About other kind of integrated services in stations, they work more and more like airport terminals, so long term parking lots, common rent-car offices and other kind of stores are usual, specially in large stations.


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## 437.001

*going back to topic...*

*Madrid-Asturias HSL.*
Section Palencia-Leon.



RDaneel said:


> (_translated into English by *437.001*_)
> 
> At *Vilecha*:
> 
> 
> DSCN1109 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> At *Vega de Infanzones*:
> 
> 
> DSCN1110 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1111 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1112 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1113 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> From the overpass of the former pic:
> 
> 
> DSCN1114 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1115 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1117 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1118 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Preliminary works for the ballast? I´ve tried to fins the expropriations in the BOE (Boletín Oficial del Estado -Spanish for 'Official State Bulletin') but they´re no longer there, although I remember they were supposed to be by the area on the pic:
> 
> 
> DSCN1116 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> At *Palanquinos station*.
> 
> Without zoom:
> 
> 
> DSCN1121 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> With zoom:
> 
> 
> DSCN1119 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1122 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> And looking towards Palencia:
> 
> 
> DSCN1120 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1123 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1124 por danlx86, en Flickr


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## 437.001

*News!!!*

The *Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches new station*, on the Madrid-Seville HSL, will open soon.

Six trains (three per direction) will call there. The opening of this station has been delayed for long, and is somewhat controversial, since no big town is nearby.

Source (in Spanish): Diario ABC


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## alserrod

AlexNL said:


> When arriving in Barcelona, can people simply hop on to a connecting Cercanías/Rodalies service (to reach a suburb or neighborhood) or do they have to wait for an hour?



All commuter areas have ticket included in the long distance ticket (AVE in this case). They'll give you a password to ask a free ticket.

How much will you wait?. It depends. Frequencies are one train every 30 minutes... you can reach just before departing or... it has just departed and have to wait 29 minutes for next one.

Arriving to any city with this service will help you. Maybe you will not reach your final destination but you can approach there and ask for another public service (local bus, underground) or a taxi. In the first case, you'll save time and fare will be a little cheaper. In the second case you'll save a lot of money. Providing you are going to somewhere in the south of Madrid you will easily have several lines with nice frequencies and it is affordable to make 30 km (or more) with a commuter train (free ticket with your AVE ticket), arriving to any town and looking for a local taxi there until final destination. Just think you much you have saved travelling 30 km in commuter (free ticket) instead of taxi.

If your destination is within Madrid you can approach final destination. Madrid has not integrated commuter and underground services. One ticket each service so people do not use both ones at the same time (except if you have a monthly forfait). If your ticket includes a commuter train you can use it to save time until the nearest station. You will have to pay an underground ticket but... once again, you'll save time.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Asturias HSL.
Palencia station.*

Preliminary works, prior to laying the standard gauge tracks.
They´ll have to increase the height of the platforms, increase the length of platforms 2 and 4, and install a new bretelle point in platform 4 and the platform-less shorter track.
Platforms 1 and 2 will be in standard gauge, platform 4 and the platform-less through track, in Iberian gauge. 

The pics were taken in order, walking from the east side of the station (the Madrid/Burgos side) to the west side (the Santander/Leon side), and then through the street with the level crossing to the south side: 



ELZIPO32 said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Medina del Campo AV.

I post this photo of not very good quality, because in it we can see the place, near *Olmedo*, where the HSL diverges from the old Segovia-Medina classic line, currently used as an access to/from the Madrid-Valladolid HSL for the trains from/to Galicia.



elburgo said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL (+ Medina del Campo-Zamora-Ourense classic line).
Zamora station.*

Images of the changes at the station between March 2011 and March 2014 (in order, from top left to bottom right):



Fruela said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Toledo HSL.*
Just outside *Toledo station*.

Again AVE trains have entered Toledo station, this time on special services from Barcelona and Malaga (in both cases calling and reversing at Madrid-Atocha before heading for Toledo).

These new special services have been created in the wake of an exhibition dedicated to the Greek painter Domenikos Theotokopoulos (known in Spain as El Greco).

AVE services from Albacete to Toledo (with reversal at Madrid-Atocha) were discontinued not long ago because of a bad response by the passengers between Madrid and Toledo. They stuck to the cheaper Avant services (back then, the new fare system hadn´t been implemented yet, so the AVE Albacete-Madrid-Toledo was rather expensive).

Avant services Madrid-Toledo though, are very successful, they´re usually full. Do book in advance if you plan to travel to Toledo.



jhysmaely said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.*
Just next to the *Mollet* junction.

Videos:



carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## 437.001

437.001 said:


> *News!!!*
> 
> The *Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches new station*, on the Madrid-Seville HSL, will open soon.
> 
> Six trains (three per direction) will call there. The opening of this station has been delayed for long, and is somewhat controversial, since no big town is nearby.
> 
> Source (in Spanish): Diario ABC


*The new Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches station has opened today!!* :uh:

It´s been an almost esoteric opening, Renfe announced it in a very small ad, kept it almost as a secret.
They mustn´t be very confident in it (nor am I). 

This new station is born out of the wishes of the Andalusian regional government, the Ministry and Adif made it only at their request.
And Renfe has moved rather reluctantly, it seems.

*The timetable for the new station goes as follows:*

*For Madrid:*

One AVE Seville-Madrid at 07:16, another one at 22:13.
One Altaria Algeciras-Madrid at 12:26, another one at 18:38.

All of them non-stop till Madrid-Atocha.

*For Cordova/Seville/Algeciras:*

One AVE Madrid-Seville at 08:06, another one at 22:59. All calling at Cordova and Seville-Santa Justa.
One Altaria Madrid-Algeciras at 10:21, another one at 16:45. All calling at Cordova, Antequera-Santa Ana, Ronda, San Roque-La Línea, Algeciras.

Good luck to the new station.


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## foxmulder

Nice construction pictures. Thanks for sharing.


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> *The timetable for the new station goes as follows:*
> 
> *For Madrid:*
> 
> One AVE Seville-Madrid at 07:16, another one at 22:13.
> One Altaria Algeciras-Madrid at 12:26, another one at 18:38.
> 
> All of them non-stop till Madrid-Atocha.
> 
> *For Cordova/Seville/Algeciras:*
> 
> One AVE Madrid-Seville at 08:06, another one at 22:59. All calling at Cordova and Seville-Santa Justa.
> One Altaria Madrid-Algeciras at 10:21, another one at 16:45. All calling at Cordova, Antequera-Santa Ana, Ronda, San Roque-La Línea, Algeciras.


Timetable is decent considering the relatively low importance of this station. Let's see if there is an interest from those living in the area.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Timetable is decent considering the relatively low importance of this station. Let's see if there is an interest from those living in the area.


:sleepy:

Yes, but first, the station should have its accesses finished. They aren´t. The road isn´t paved yet. 
And there´s no bus shuttle to the nearby towns and villages yet, the Andalusia regional government (who were the instigators of this station) hasn´t given the license to operate the bus shuttle to any company yet. :no:

If it had been me, this station would have never opened. :colbert:


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Yes, but first, the station should have its accesses finished. They aren´t. The road isn´t paved yet.
> And there´s no bus shuttle to the nearby towns and villages.


That I didn't know… No reason to expect a lot of passengers under those circumstances.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> That I didn't know… No reason to expect a lot of passengers under those circumstances.


No reason indeed. hno:


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Seville HSL.
Villanueva de Córdoba-Los Pedroches station.* *NEW!!*

Looks like I was a bit wrong. 

Actually 17 people used it on the first train (the one in the video), and around 300 people turned up at the station to watch the train arrive. Not bad at all. 

I have to say that I mis-Googled, I didn´t realize that Villanueva de Córdoba is not far at all from Pozoblanco (which is rather more populated than I thought, it has about the same population as Calatayud on the Madrid-Barcelona HSL, and there used to be a railway in Pozoblanco till the 1960s, the old narrow gauge line from Puertollano to Peñarroya and Fuente del Arco, so to them it must have been a sort of reopening after so many years). 

I just thought that Pozoblanco was further away from Villanueva de Córdoba, and much smaller than it actually is. :clown:

Not that I´m all that optimistic about it now, but certainly much less pessimistic than I used to. 

Btw, to potential travellers: the area is scenically rather beautiful, and produces one of the best hams in the country -no small feat.



MuyPacense said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Murcia-Lorca-Vera-Almeria HSL.*

Section Vera-Almeria.

Works came to a halt some time ago. And so they are. 

One of the tunnels on the line, near Barranco de los Gafarillos:



> Source: Diario ABC (in Spanish)


----------



## Sunfuns

Significant work seems to have been done already. It probably will be restarted some day, don't you think?


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Significant work seems to have been done already.


Yes, between Murcia and Lorca lots have been done already, and I guess that section will open much earlier than the one between Lorca and Almeria.

But between Lorca and Almeria works haven´t even started in some sectors.



Sunfuns said:


> It probably will be restarted some day, don't you think?


The thing is that we have much of a burden with lots of new lines to open, some of which need to be open by next year or we´ll lose the EU funds for those lines.

So the ones that 'can wait'... will _have to_ wait. :dunno: 

It´s sad in this particular case, since there is no railway connection between Andalusia and Murcia since 1985 when the Almendricos-Guadix line was stupidly closed, and now you have to travel hundreds of miles to go from Alicante to Granada or Seville, when there used to be a much more direct route, and this HSL is supposed to make up for that loss and cut travel times enormously. 

Almeria is becoming a dead end street in terms of railway, it has some of the worse travel times to everywhere. :sad2:


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL.*
Section Plasencia-Cáceres.

*River Almonte viaduct*, under construction. 

This will be another one of the big postcard viaducts. Keep an eye on it. 
It´s not far from *Río Tajo station* on the classic line. In fact, on the second pic you can spot another viaduct in hindsight, it´s the one of the classic line.



> http://www.rubricaingenieria.es/obras/puente-arco-ferroviario-sobre-el-rio-almonte/


----------



## Sunfuns

I think this one might end up looking even better than river Ulla viaduct you like to cover.


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## Reivajar

This is a video about the construction process explanation of the Tagus River bridge (it is just few kilometers away towards the North from the Almonte river bridge posted by 437.001), but the type of bridge and construction method is the same: an arch bridge.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I think this one might end up looking even better than river Ulla viaduct you like to cover.


Well... we´ll have the choice (and the chance) to admire them all once they finish them.  :naughty:


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Well... we´ll have the choice (and the chance) to admire them all once they finish them.  :naughty:


That's true and the one in Galicia will be ready for that sooner.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

Images taken around Toro:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/LPPucelaToro.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.

Images taken between Toro and Coreses:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> Viaduct over river Duero (Douro), near *Toro*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At *Monte la Reina station* and around:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At *Matilla*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At *Fresno de la Ribera*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/ToroCoreses.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
*Zamora station* and surroundings.



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> Looking towards Ourense:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Olmedo junction (and Madrid):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/Estacion Zamora/2014.html


----------



## Reivajar

I don't understand the point of those high poles over the platforms shelters. Any idea?


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.

Images taken between Zamora and La Hiniesta, with the Valderrey tunnel and the Valderrey viaduct (last pic). 
It´s one of the least advanced sections between Zamora and Pedralba de la Pradería:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/ZamoraMontamarta.html


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> I don't understand the point of those high poles over the platforms shelters. Any idea?


Ermmm... mmm... weird electrification poles? :hmm: :? :dunno:


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.

Images taken between Montamarta and Tábara:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> At *Perilla de Castro*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viaduct over river Esla and surroundings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viaduct over Arroyo Moratones:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At *Moreruela*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At *Faramontanos de Tábara*:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MontamartaTabara.html


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.

Images taken between Tábara and Mombuey:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> At *Tábara*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At *Ferreras*:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/TabaraMombuey.html


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL.*
Just next to the *Mollet* junction.

_Three class S-100 AVE_:



carlesnuc said:


>


----------



## gincan

^^

This is the weakest spot on the whole line. To save monies they skipped building adequate flood protection, because you know, such a flood won't happen in the 500 year simulation hno:


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## Reivajar

^^ What kind of structure would have been an adequate flood protection?


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> ^^
> 
> This is the weakest spot on the whole line. To save monies they skipped building adequate flood protection, because you know, such a flood won't happen in the 500 year simulation hno:


I´ve always thought about that. 
In case of severe flood, the line could perhaps be damaged.
On the other hand, there´s not a lot of room in the area, that is true.



Reivajar said:


> ^^ What kind of structure would have been an adequate flood protection?


A viaduct, or a higher wall.


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## gincan

Reivajar said:


> ^^ What kind of structure would have been an adequate flood protection?


It is difficult to say, probably a viaduct. A wall only works as long as the water doesn't topple it. And along this stretch you could potentially see epic flooding (4-5 meters above normal water level), all it takes really is a major weather system dumping lots of water into Congost and Mogent rivers. 

The fact that both the railroad and the motorway are inside the would be flooded area of river Besòs is very bad news. Unfortunately memory is short and these types of events are rare, this is where economics take reason out of the equation.

Anyway, if a 500 year event were to take place in the lower Llobregat basin which is more important in terms of infrastructure, we are looking att 7+ meters of flooding. It would pretty much destroy all infrastructure in the Baix Llobregat region, including both the port and airport, it would be game over.


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> It is difficult to say, probably a viaduct. A wall only works as long as the water doesn't topple it. And along this stretch you could potentially see epic flooding (4-5 meters above normal water level), all it takes really is a major weather system dumping lots of water into Congost and Mogent rivers.
> 
> The fact that both the railroad and the motorway are inside the would be flooded area of river Besòs is very bad news. Unfortunately memory is short and these types of events are rare, this is where economics take reason out of the equation.


That´s what makes me dislike the route the HSL follows between Sant Andreu Comtal and Montmeló. Too close to the river. :shifty:



gincan said:


> Anyway, if a 500 year event were to take place in the lower Llobregat basin which is more important in terms of infrastructure, we are looking att 7+ meters of flooding. It would pretty much destroy all infrastructure in the Baix Llobregat region, including both the port and airport, it would be game over.


:sly: I think the line´s better built in that section.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.*
Section Pedralba de la Pradería-Ourense.

Testing the Arnoia (1,014 m), Bouzas (216 m) and Meamán (177 m) viaducts, between *Ponte Ambía* and *Meamán*, in the Ourense province (Galicia).



>


Source: zamora24horas.com (in Spanish)


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL.*
Section Plasencia-Cáceres.

Images taken near *Cañaveral*.



solchante said:


> Obras AVE Cañaveral (Cáceres) por Suravia Fotografía Aérea, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Obras AVE Cañaveral (Cáceres) por Suravia Fotografía Aérea, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Obras AVE Cañaveral (Cáceres) por Suravia Fotografía Aérea, en Flickr


----------



## Vaud

How are the services Barcelona-France doing so far? Are there any statistics released already?


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## 437.001

Vaud said:


> How are the services Barcelona-France doing so far? Are there any statistics released already?



The TGV Barcelona-Paris are doing ok, and they´ve just added the third TGV (with new stops at Agde and Sète), and rumour has it (it´s just a rumour) that a fourth one could perhaps be added in July, but I don´t know wether that would be just for the summer campaign or a permanent service.

The Barcelona-Toulouse AVE has just seen its timetables modified, to adapt it to the Toulouse demand better. The day I took it wasn´t doing very well (it was a Monday).

The Barcelona-Lyon AVE... I don´t remember, I´ll check, I´m not sure if the stats showed it.

The Madrid-Marseille AVE isn´t doing very good, it seems. Stops at Zaragoza and Camp de Tarragona are demanded.


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## alserrod

Vaud said:


> How are the services Barcelona-France doing so far? Are there any statistics released already?


In addition to 437001 information, it is expected to have in July the fourth daily Barcelona-Paris as well as first Marseille-Barcelona (plus existing Marseille-Madrid).

It is supossed to have two daily trains from Barcelona to Marseille (will have in July), Lyon, Toulouse (both will have to wait) and one to Génève (will have to wait)


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## kbbcn

437.001 said:


> The Madrid-Marseille AVE isn´t doing very good, it seems. Stops at Zaragoza and Camp de Tarragona are demanded.


I did a Barcelona - Aix-en-Provence 2 weeks ago. We already left an hour late (late arrival from Madrid), and in my car (preferente) there were maybe 6 or 7 people. Overall I think there must have been no more than 100 people waiting in Sants. (Anyone going to Girona or Figueres was already sent off on other trains.)

I really hope they don't cancel it, but maybe plan it a bit (+/- 1 hour) earlier in the day.

But since I had lots of time to think that day... :lol: I don't think that we really need trains that stop everywhere on both sides of the border. What would really help, IMHO, in improving train travel between the 2 countries is more connections between Figueres and Perpignan. Because it is fairly easy to get to (or leave from) those cities, but there are only 6 trains between those 2 stations each day. The number of possible connections would improve a lot if there were a solution for that.


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## Reivajar

^^ 1 hour of delay in a train coming from Madrid to Barcelona on the HSL? Is that normal?

Delays in trains coming from France to Spain are kind of usual because of saturation on the Langedoc line, but in the opposite way it shouldn't be that common. :dunno:


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## Sunfuns

Success will be difficult to achieve if delays like that are common. No big deal for tourists, but very annoying for people traveling on business.


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## kbbcn

Reivajar said:


> ^^ 1 hour of delay in a train coming from Madrid to Barcelona on the HSL? Is that normal?


We never got an explanation of why it happened, but I heard the Renfe people between them talk of a technical problem. (If anyone here knows how to consult the Renfe information, this was on March 24th.)
Also, I couldn't get any refund because we arrived only 55 minutes late in Aix.


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## 437.001

alserrod said:


> In addition to 437001 information, it is expected to have in July the fourth daily Barcelona-Paris as well as first Marseille-Barcelona (plus existing Marseille-Madrid).
> 
> It is supossed to have two daily trains from Barcelona to Marseille (will have in July), Lyon, Toulouse (both will have to wait) and one to Génève (will have to wait)


^^

THAT IS NOT EXPECTED, *THAT IS JUST A RUMOUR*, AND THAT APPEARED ON ANOTHER WEBSITE ONLY, ON APRIL THE FIRST, POSTED BY A FORUMER WHO IS RENOWNED FOR PLAYING WITH THE RENFE WEBSITE TO MAKE UP FANTASY TIMETABLES.

Sorry for the capital letters. :sleepy:

But I really tried to make it very clear on the Spanish forum that those are just rumours, and that we don´t know how founded they are. 

So if you post those things, please do not post them as facts nor as _"it is expected"_. 

The fact that you are a moderator makes it all the worse.

:colbert:


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> Success will be difficult to achieve if delays like that are common. No big deal for tourists, but very annoying for people traveling on business.


It is really strange to get delays on the high speed network in Spain. It is the most punctual high speed network in Europe -which is not that strange considering that most of it is a segregated network-, that's why the general thing is geting delayed trains from France, and not in the opposite sense.

In France anyway it is pretty understandable considering the saturation of the Languedoc network. I don't consider the international services truly high speed trains, as between Perpignan and Nimes, and Perpignan and Toulouse it is just conventional French network.


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## Sunfuns

Wouldn't it make more sense to run all cross-border trains only to/from Barcelona and use connections for destinations deeper in Spain? That way the domestic schedule wouldn't be affected by any delays in France.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to run all cross-border trains only to/from Barcelona and use connections for destinations deeper in Spain? That way the domestic schedule wouldn't be affected by any delays in France.


Wouldn't it make more sense to run all cross-border trains only to/from Perpignan or Montpellier and use connections for destinations deeper in France? That way the domestic schedule wouldn't be affected by any delays in Spain.

:dunno:


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to run all cross-border trains only to/from Barcelona and use connections for destinations deeper in Spain? That way the domestic schedule wouldn't be affected by any delays in France.


Well, except for the Marseille-Barcelona-Madrid service (which is an extension of a direct train Madrid-Barcelona), the rest of services have as Southern terminus Barcelona. So, it is mostly what you say.

The point of including Madrid as destination for the new international services, I guess, it is mostly because of a political reason following this dumb logic: if Paris is included in the offer, Madrid needs to be included somehow too. And the less disturbing way was enlarging a direct train between Madrid and Barcelona.


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to run all cross-border trains only to/from Perpignan or Montpellier and use connections for destinations deeper in France? That way the domestic schedule wouldn't be affected by any delays in Spain.
> 
> :dunno:


Well, I don't have any personal experience with it but according to what almost everybody here is writing delays are far more common in France.


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Well, except for the Marseille-Barcelona-Madrid service (which is an extension of a direct train Madrid-Barcelona), the rest of services have as Southern terminus Barcelona. So, it is mostly what you say.
> 
> The point of including Madrid as destination for the new international services, I guess, it is mostly because of a political reason following this dumb logic: if Paris is included in the offer, Madrid needs to be included somehow too. And the less disturbing way was enlarging a direct train between Madrid and Barcelona.


By using the same dumb logic, why not taking a Madrid-Barcelona train to Montpellier (and so Marseille)?

And what´s the sense and purpose of any diametral train in Spain (say, Gijón-Madrid-Alicante)?

I just don´t get you. You´re from Madrid, and you´re... claiming for a worse service? :uh:

Do not forget that these are entirely new services. They´ll take some time for people to get accustomed to, and no, not in every country people get accustomed to novelties just as fast. Sometimes the habits are hard to change. 

And don´t forget that the HSL between Nimes and Montpellier isn´t finished yet.

And there´s also the fact that Spain is the most car-oriented country in Western Europe.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Well, I don't have any personal experience with it but according to what almost everybody here is writing delays are far more common in France.


So? They are, yes, but that doesn´t mean that the services to/from Barcelona aren´t affected by them. They are, just as much as the others. 

The only thing is that I guess it would be better if the AVE bound for Madrid came from Lyon instead of Marseille, this, I acknowledge.

Marseille sometimes is a very chaotic place, and that translates into railways too (hence a part of the delays, the other being the saturation of the section between Nimes and Montpellier, but that´s on the way to being solved with the new section of HSL between the two Languedoc towns).


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## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> By using the same dumb logic, why not taking a Madrid-Barcelona train to Montpellier (and so Marseille)?
> 
> And what´s the sense and purpose of any diametral train in Spain (say, Gijón-Madrid-Alicante)?
> 
> I just don´t get you. You´re from Madrid, and you´re... claiming for a worse service? :uh:
> 
> Do not forget that these are entirely new services. They´ll take some time for people to get accustomed to, and no, not in every country people get accustomed to novelties just as fast. Sometimes the habits are hard to change. And don´t forget that the HSLs isn´t finished yet.


Not a worse service. I mean, having all the current international services which currently start and end in Barcelona could be enlarged to Madrid too. It would mean, supposedly, a better service. But actually, which is the sense of enlarging the Marseille service and not the Toulouse or the Lyon train. They have researched about the people who are travelling between Madrid and Avignon, Aix and Marseille and they are more than people who are traveling between Madrid and Toulouse or Lyon? I am not sure. What I say is just that the fact of includying Madrid in the offer is mostly political and not practical. Currently, whithout a high speed line in Souther France between Perpignan and Nimes, travel times from Madrid to French destinations are not that good, except maybe Perpignan, Narbonne or Montpellier at most...

Do you understand what I wanna say?


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## 437.001

Stats, according to this article from El País: 

According to the article, around 146,000 people have used the new AVE/TGV services between Spain and France since they entered service.
According to the article, more than 50% of the passengers are French.

Most used routes, between December 2013 and March 2014:

Barcelona-Paris------------------130,000 passengers
Barcelona-Montpellier------------15,600 passengers
Barcelona-Narbonne---------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Toulouse----------------8,000 passengers
Barcelona-Marseille----------------4,800 passengers
Figueres-Paris----------------------4,300 passengers
Girona-Paris------------------------2,500 passengers
Madrid-Montpellier-----------------1,400 passengers
Madrid-Perpignan------------------1,100 passengers
Girona-Perpignan--------------------820 passengers
Madrid-Marseille---------------------600 passengers
Girona-Marseille---------------------400 passengers

No stats about Lyon ?), Valence, Nimes, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence, Carcassonne.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> So? They are, yes, but that doesn´t mean that the services to/from Barcelona aren´t affected by them. They are, just as much as the others.


Of course, but isn't Marseille-Madrid train also used for domestic traffic between Barcelona and Madrid? If so then it's probably less reliable than all the others which don't use French classical lines. That's what I wanted to say with my previous post...


----------



## Reivajar

Hmmmm, do you think that Madrid-Paris would get a good performance even with the current travel times?


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Not a worse service. I mean, having all the current international services which currently start and end in Barcelona could be enlarged to Madrid too. It would mean, supposedly, a better service. But actually, which is the sense of enlarging the Marseille service and not the Toulouse or the Lyon train. They have researched about the people who are travelling between Madrid and Avignon, Aix and Marseille and they are more than people who are traveling between Madrid and Toulouse or Lyon? I am not sure. What I say is just that the fact of includying Madrid in the offer is mostly political and not practical. Currently, whithout a high speed line in Souther France between Perpignan and Nimes, travel times from Madrid to French destinations are not that good, except maybe Perpignan, Narbonne or Montpellier at most...
> 
> Do you understand what I wanna say?


There´s a problem. Vaud posted this here: 



Vaud said:


> How are the services Barcelona-France doing so far? Are there any statistics released already?


...and we all kept on answering, without realising that this is an off-topic, there already is another thread dedicated to international services. 
I´m answering you there.

We´ve gone far off-topic.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Stats, according to this article from El País:
> 
> According to the article, around 146,000 people have used the new AVE/TGV services between Spain and France since they entered service.
> According to the article, more than 50% of the passengers are French.
> 
> Most used routes, between December 2013 and March 2014:
> 
> Barcelona-Paris------------------130,000 passengers
> Barcelona-Montpellier------------15,600 passengers
> Barcelona-Narbonne---------------8,000 passengers
> Barcelona-Toulouse----------------8,000 passengers
> Barcelona-Marseille----------------4,800 passengers
> Figueres-Paris----------------------4,300 passengers
> Girona-Paris------------------------2,500 passengers
> Madrid-Montpellier-----------------1,400 passengers
> Madrid-Perpignan------------------1,100 passengers
> Girona-Perpignan--------------------820 passengers
> Madrid-Marseille---------------------600 passengers
> Girona-Marseille---------------------400 passengers
> 
> No stats about Lyon ?), Valence, Nimes, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence, Carcassonne.


I am a bit surprised that Barcelona-Paris services are dominating to such an extent. Looks like no one cares about going to those "2nd tier" French cities :lol:


----------



## 437.001

*THIS IS OFF-TOPIC*. 

Let´s all move to the Eurostar and international services thread.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> We´ve gone far off-topic.


Oh, come on. It's still about Spain and railways, but sure we can continue in the other thread.


----------



## Reivajar

^^ That's France... Paris.... and the rest of the country...

Anyway, I would be interested in the Barcelona-Lyon travellers stats.


----------



## 437.001

437.001 said:


> *THIS IS OFF-TOPIC*.
> 
> Let´s all move to the Eurostar and international services thread.


 'ear, 'ear! :gossip:


----------



## Vaud

Jeez, you are so annoying.


----------



## 437.001

*Basque "Y" HSL (Bilbao-Vitoria/Bilbao-San Sebastian/Vitoria-San Sebastian).*

Picture taken between Arrasate and Elorrio:



epiyblas said:


>


----------



## 437.001

*Rumour:*

:gossip: Radio platform 9 3/4 says:

-Valladolid-Palencia HSL would open by January 2015.
-Palencia-Leon HSL would open by September 2015.


----------



## 437.001

*News!!*

Alsa (aka National Express) and Veloi Rail (aka Vueling) have obtained the license to operate the Madrid-Alicante route on the HSL, in concurrence with Renfe.

Liberalization is coming... :shifty:

Source: Diario Información (in Spanish)


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> *News!!*
> 
> Alsa (aka National Express) and Veloi Rail (aka Vueling) have obtained the license to operate the Madrid-Alicante route on the HSL, in concurrence with Renfe.
> 
> Liberalization is coming... :shifty:
> 
> Source: Diario Información (in Spanish)


I am not completely sure, but I think Alsa Rail is not integrated into the National Express group, but the railway division is completely owned by the Cosme family (the originary local owner of Alsa) not as the rest of the Alsa services operated by buses in Europe.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> *News!!*
> 
> Alsa (aka National Express) and Veloi Rail (aka Vueling) have obtained the license to operate the Madrid-Alicante route on the HSL, in concurrence with Renfe.
> 
> Liberalization is coming... :shifty:


What trains will they use? And how soon will they start?


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> What trains will they use?


I believe class 100 (the non-France ones). But I´m not sure and I don´t remember, I´ll search later, now I gotta get out.



K_ said:


> And how soon will they start?


The article says before 2015, but we´re not sure (we haven´t heard nor read much about it).


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Class 100 (the non-France ones).


Rented from Renfe?


----------



## 437.001

Or a ROSCO, I think. But I´m not sure, can´t remember.
*Reivajar*, could you read about it in the Spanish forum and post it here, please?
I gotta get out now. 

:dunno:


----------



## Reivajar

Well, a ROSCO is one of the four companies Renfe will be splitted from the unique Renfe company divided currently in departments: passengers, freight and logistics, and manufacturing and maintenance. ROSCO is the name which the fourth one has received in the first moment and it will be in charge of renting part of the rolling stock for other private companies. The name is just provisional and used unofficially, and it based on the British experience, where it refers to this kind of companies which own and maintain rolling stock for being rented later. ROSCO stands for rollling stock operating company. In the first phase 26 high speed trains currently owned by Renfe are planned to be transferred to this new company. Probably the Renfe 100 series not adapted to international services as 437.001 says and maybe some more... not completely clear by now.


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## 437.001

Back again (^^ thanks!).

Btw, National Express (ALSA) in the UK operates under the c2c moniker, and runs the services from London-Fenchurch Street for Basildon, Southend and Grays.
In 2010, it was named the most punctual railway service in the UK.
They´ve been shortlisted to bid for the Crossrail operation.

National Express also run the Midland Metro (the trams in Birmingham).


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Do you know anything about what I've posted above on the Alsa Rail owner?


----------



## Richard_P

Some time ago I've read that Spain was planning to build rail test centre which should feature test track loop for high speed. Dos building of such centre really started or it was cancelled due to austerity measures?


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## Reivajar

Richard_P said:


> Some time ago I've read that Spain was planning to build rail test centre which should feature test track loop for high speed. Dos building of such centre really started or it was cancelled due to austerity measures?


I was cancelled due to austerity, but there have been some recent news about the reactivation of the test track loop in Antequera.


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## Richard_P

Thanks, I've done some google search and found this latest news from 2013:
http://www.surinenglish.com/20130430/news/costasol-malaga/rail-test-ring-antequera-201304301302.html
http://www.costa-news.com/costa-del...ions-launched-for-high-speed-train-test-track
http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-n...era-high-speed-rail-test-track-back-on-track/

Aparently this is how this track will look like:


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## Reivajar

Richard_P said:


> Thanks, I've done some google search and found this latest news from 2013:
> http://www.surinenglish.com/20130430/news/costasol-malaga/rail-test-ring-antequera-201304301302.html
> http://www.costa-news.com/costa-del...ions-launched-for-high-speed-train-test-track
> http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-n...era-high-speed-rail-test-track-back-on-track/
> 
> Aparently this is how this track will look like:


Here you have the specific thread on the Spanish forum: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1355905&page=5

Last news are in the post #88 (March 31st) where the Spanish Ministry of Public Works will launch a new tendering process as the last one remained null and void as any company bid for it. So, the project keeps active by now, probably looking for better conditions for bidding companies.


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## 437.001

*Taking the new prototype Talgo Avril G3 from the Talgo workshop in Las Matas (Madrid) to the Renfe main HSR depot in La Sagra (Toledo):* 



dirdam said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Granollers Centre-Maçanet Massanes-Girona-Portbou/Cerbère classic line + Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
*Barcelona-Sant Andreu Comtal depot*.

Left, the EMU depot and the Portbou/Cerbère line.
Right, the HSL and the Talgo depot.



carlesnuc said:


>


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## 437.001

*Barcelona-Granollers Centre-Maçanet Massanes-Girona-Portbou/Cerbère classic line + Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
*Barcelona-Sant Andreu Comtal depot*.

Left, the EMU depot and the Portbou/Cerbère line.
Right, the HSL and the Talgo depot.



carlesnuc said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
*Zaragoza-Delicias station*.

Class S-100 entering the station, bound for Barcelona-Sants.



Adpg said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
*Zaragoza-Delicias station*.

A draisine and one of the Adif lab high-speed trains (called Seneca):



Adpg said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Olmedo junction-Zamora.*

A video about the laying of the tracks:



jotaerre said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Zamora and La Hiniesta:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/Zamora - Montamarta/Valorio2014.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Zamora and La Hiniesta:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/ZamoraMontamarta.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Zamora and La Hiniesta:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/ZamoraMontamarta.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images of the river Tera viaduct, during its construction (now it´s finished):



neuromancer said:


> http://www2.cfcsl.com/viaducto-de-ffcc-de-alta-velocidad-sobre-el-rio-tera-zamora-espana-2014/


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

A timelapse of the river Tera viaduct, during its construction (now it´s finished):



neuromancer said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between La Hiniesta and Montamarta:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/ZamoraMontamarta.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between La Hiniesta and Montamarta:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/ZamoraMontamarta.html


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Tábara and Mombuey:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MontamartaTabara.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Tábara and Mombuey:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/TabaraMombuey.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Tábara and Mombuey:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/TabaraMombuey.html


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images of the river Tera viaduct, finished. 
This is another of the _'big ones'_:



CARBALOSIELLA said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/viaducto agavanzal.html


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## 437.001

*Basque "Y" HSL*.

River Deba viaduct.



BPT said:


> *27-Sep-2013*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *11-Oct-2013*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *12-Nov-2013*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *27-Nov-2013*





BPT said:


> *16-Jan-2014*





BPT said:


> *12-Feb-2014*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another take on the viaduct:





BPT said:


> *04-April-2014*


----------



## AlexNL

437.001 said:


> Back again (^^ thanks!).
> 
> Btw, National Express (ALSA) in the UK operates under the c2c moniker, and runs the services from London-Fenchurch Street for Basildon, Southend and Grays.
> In 2010, it was named the most punctual railway service in the UK.
> They´ve been shortlisted to bid for the Crossrail operation.
> 
> National Express also run the Midland Metro (the trams in Birmingham).


In the past, National Express was the operator of the trains on the East Coast Main Line (ECML) under the moniker National Express East Coast (NXEC), but they gave up on NXEC when they were unable to pay the government the fees agreed upon before NX got the concession. National Express also operated trains in the Anglia area (NX East Anglia), they lost this franchise to Abellio who nowadays operates under the name Greater Anglia.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*.
*Section Plasencia-Cáceres*.

Testing the *Valdetravieso viaduct*, near Cañaveral.



> http://www.elperiodicoextremadura.c...as-viaducto-valdetravieso-caceres_798265.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.elperiodicoextremadura.c...luye-obras-viaducto-valdetravieso_798398.html


----------



## alserrod

Last statistics about trains on time say about 2,5 trains with delay between Madrid and Barcelona per month as average in the last three years. 
There is more than one train per hour, the rest of trains were in time (or on time).

Delay is considered if there it arrives more than 15 minutes train.

That means... almost all trains arrived within that schedule.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Two questions:

- doesnt RENFE have a lot of schedule padding, such that many trains arrive up to 10 minutes earlier than scheduled on terminal stations, especially direct non-strop trains from Barcelona?

- does RENFE refund all AVE passengers for delays above 5 minutes, or is that rule still valid only for passengers on Sevilla-Madrid line?


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Two questions:
> 
> - doesnt RENFE have a lot of schedule padding, such that many trains arrive up to 10 minutes earlier than scheduled on terminal stations, especially direct non-strop trains from Barcelona?


Yes, they have.

I expect that with concurrence they will erase them because all trains will be considered as average speed. Doesn't matter maximum speed but time you arrive and that's all!.

Yesterday I arrived Madrid five or six minutes in advance.
Anyway I do not remember my last delay in trains.





> - does RENFE refund all AVE passengers for delays above 5 minutes, or is that rule still valid only for passengers on Sevilla-Madrid line?



Only Madrid-Seville is with 5 minutes accuracy (and 100% refund if delay). The rest of trains have 15 minutes


----------



## gincan

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Two questions:
> 
> - doesnt RENFE have a lot of schedule padding, such that many trains arrive up to 10 minutes earlier than scheduled on terminal stations, especially direct non-strop trains from Barcelona?
> 
> - does RENFE refund all AVE passengers for delays above 5 minutes, or is that rule still valid only for passengers on Sevilla-Madrid line?


All HSR trains have cushions, almost every train I have used arrived atleast 5 minutes ahead of the time table, some exeptions were over 10 minutes ahead.

Some cushions I know of is, Madrid-Barcelona direct trains 2h 30 min (optimal run is below 2h 15 min, I've clocked 2h 21min) Madrid-Valencia 1h 30 min (optimal run is below 1h 15 min, I've clocked 1h 22 min), Madrid-Seville 2h 20 min (optimal run is slightly over 2h, I've clocked 2h 6 min).


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## CityDreamer

Another article here stating that numbers are increasing on long range rail journeys (including AVE trains).
Do travellers here notice that trains are more fully occupied, or are there routes that are still under-occupied? Is there a high speed rail line that has been disappointing in passenger numbers?

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/04/17/inenglish/1397727595_622092.html



> Information released by the National Statistics Institute (INE) shows that in February, long-distance trains – including the high-speed AVE – carried 1,954,000 passengers, a 14.3-percent increase on the same month in 2013, and 18 percent up on January.


----------



## alserrod

To my best knowledge, all Seville-Barcelona, either morning or afternoon service are full until 24th.
Seville-Zaragoza is full until 28th.

I know... It is a really rush season but we can compare.with other years...


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## 437.001

CityDreamer said:


> Another article here stating that numbers are increasing on long range rail journeys (including AVE trains).
> 
> http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/04/17/inenglish/1397727595_622092.html


This only applies to Long Distance rail services.

On regional rail and suburban rail (there where booking in advance isn´t compulsory), passengers continue to drop.



CityDreamer said:


> Do travellers here notice that trains are more fully occupied, or are there routes that are still under-occupied?


On Long Distance services, trains are more fully occupied, that´s true.
Some particular routes (night trains in particular) are still under-occupied though, some of them could be discontinued and replaced by day services.



CityDreamer said:


> Is there a high speed rail line that has been disappointing in passenger numbers?


Not really. Those that still don´t have top numbers are unfinished.
If I were to choose one, It´d be the Huesca branch, perhaps.


----------



## Suburbanist

The Huesca branch will only become successful when it becomes the launchpad for a high-speed link with Toulouse


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> The Huesca branch will only become successful when it becomes the launchpad for a high-speed link with Toulouse


Hmmmm, when the new tunnel under the Central Pyrenees will be launch around 2060... :lol:

Anyway, the Huesca brach at that time was some sort of experiment as it was the first third rail commercial line to be used in Spain. 

Huesca branch could get better numbers just by improving the current line from Huesca to Canfranc and offering good trains services during the winter for skiers and in summer for tourists. At some point, with the reopening of the international tunnel some trains between Spain and France could be programmed, but mostly regional ones between Saragossa and Pau, or French long distance trains for feeding Spanish ski stations in Aragon.

Currently, trains between Saragossa and Toulouse would need around 4h40 via Barcelona and Narbonne (considering the current times of an AVE Zaragoza-Barcelona in 1h40 + AVE Barcelona-Toulouse in 3h)

Through Huesca you would need:
Zaragoza-Huesca: 40 min
Huesca-Canfranc 2h42 (at most you could improve travel times to 2h or 1h45 with important works in the current line)
-current gap-
Oloron-Pau: 38 min
Pau-Toulouse: 2h24

Or you build a new huge base tunnel or the route through Barcelona is faster.


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## Suburbanist

Reivajar said:


> Anyway, the Huesca brach at that time was some sort of experiment as it was the first third rail commercial line to be used in Spain.


Third rail?









Source: ferropedia

I thought they used cantenary :dunno:

Is it even possible to use third rail at 25kV? How do they do that?


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## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Third rail?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: ferropedia
> 
> I thought they used cantenary :dunno:
> 
> Is it even possible to use third rail at 25kV? How do they do that?


It is not third rail for electricity (like in UK), but a dual gauge line: Iberian and standard gauges.

Electrification is through catenary, like any other Adif line in Spain.

To be more precise, there were other dual gauge tracks in Spain before, but just some short stretches in the French border stations for wagon storage or lines for testing purposes.


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## alserrod

Furthermore, catenary is available for AVE trains only.

Regional ones may be diesel


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> On regional rail and suburban rail (there where booking in advance isn´t compulsory), passengers continue to drop.


Regional rail struggling is somewhat understandable, but what is the reason for dropping passenger numbers for a suburban trains presumably being used mostly by commuters? Is it still an effect of economic crisis in Spain?


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Mombuey and Cernadilla.



Fruela said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MombueyPuebla.html


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Cernadilla and Otero de Sanabria.

Here´s where problems start (mountain, weather, delays in construction).



Fruela said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MombueyPuebla.html


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## Suburbanist

Which high-speed train services not stopping or calling in Madrid are there at the moment?


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Otero de Sanabria future station (or crossing loop, not sure yet).
If it ever opens, the nearest town will be Puebla de Sanabria, which is quite small.
And the biggest town around would be Bragança, in Portugal (we´re nearly in the border).

A scheme of the posible station, and some images:



437.001 said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/Estacion Otero.html





Fruela said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MombueyPuebla.html


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Which high-speed train services not stopping or calling in Madrid are there at the moment?


AVE Barcelona-Seville, AVE Barcelona-Malaga. 
They avoid Madrid-Atocha through a by-pass, although they run through some of its southern quarters and suburbs.
For now, that´s all, all the others call at Madrid-Atocha or both Madrid-Atocha and Madrid-Chamartín.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken between Otero de Sanabria and Puebla de Sanabria.



Fruela said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MombueyPuebla.html


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> AVE Barcelona-Seville, AVE Barcelona-Malaga.
> They avoid Madrid-Atocha through a by-pass, although they run through some of its southern quarters and suburbs.
> For now, that´s all, all the others call at Madrid-Atocha or both Madrid-Atocha and Madrid-Chamartín.


He wasn't asking that of course, but literally speaking there are also Barcelona-France services and Seville-Malaga as well. Anything else running on HS lines and having nothing to do with Madrid?


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images taken at Puebla de Sanabria, in February and April 2014.

Viaduct over river Tera:



Fruela said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MombueyPuebla.html




And right after the viaduct, a tunnel under Puebla de Sanabria station of the classic line.
This is the reason why there could be no station here, there´s just no room.



Fruela said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/MombueyPuebla.html


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> He wasn't asking that of course, but literally speaking there are also Barcelona-France services and Seville-Malaga as well. Anything else running on HS lines and having nothing to do with Madrid?


Transversal Alvias (Barcelona-Corunna, Barcelona-Valladolid, Barcelona-Ponferrada, Barcelona-Bilbao, Barcelona-Pamplona, Barcelona-Irun, Barcelona-Gijon). 

And also the Trenhotel Barcelona-Corunna/Vigo, a night train.

These already use the Madrid-Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Zaragoza, plus future extensions of other HSLs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, although they do not run on HSLs yet, they will do it soon, the Euromed services (Barcelona-Valencia, Barcelona-Alicante). 

These will use the HSL between Alicante and Valencia, and between Camp de Tarragona and Barcelona.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also the Arco Bilbao/Hendaye-Corunna/Vigo.

These could use the HSL between Burgos and Leon once it opens.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that´s all.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Zamora-Pedralba de la Pradería.*

Images between Puebla de Sanabria and Pedralba de la Pradería, in February and April 2014.

(translated from Spanish)



Fruela said:


> The Puebla de Sanabria-Bragança route:
> 
> 
> 
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> An overpass for some walk:
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> 
> 
> And then we get to the crossing with the classic line.
> Probably the future Pedralba gauge changer will be installed here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/PueblaLPOrense.html


----------



## Reivajar

^^ I guess you can include as well in high speed services not calling in Madrid:

*Avant *A Coruña-Santiago-Ourense
*Avant *Calatayud-Zaragoza
*AVE * Valencia-Cuenca-Ciudad Real-Puertollano-Córdoba-Sevilla

There is still separated Avant services between Lleida Camp de Tarragona and Barcelona? If it is, they can be included too.

I am not sure if there is anymore else... :dunno:


----------



## Suburbanist

Do Valencia-Alicante HS trains have to go to Cuenca to reverse, or is there some flyover for them to travel directly like Valencia <=> Albacete


----------



## Suburbanist

Reivajar said:


> *Avant *Calatayud-Zaragoza


Is this a shuttle service only, or does it continue to Huesca?


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL.
Section Pedralba de la Pradería-Ourense.*

Images taken between Pedralba de la Pradería and Requejo.



Fruela said:


> http://www.trenzamora.es/Lineaszamora/AVE/PueblaLPOrense.html


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> Is this a shuttle service only, or does it continue to Huesca?


There is the shuttle service one:
http://horarios.renfe.com/HIRRenfeW...63&G=1&TT=AVANT&ID=s&FDS=2013-09-01&DT=25 min.

I am not sure if there is separated Avant to Huesca, but I think currently it is integrated into the AVE Madrid-Huesca, and from Zaragoza part of the seats are sold as Avant.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> ^^ I guess you can include as well in high speed services not calling in Madrid:
> 
> *Avant *A Coruña-Santiago-Ourense


Right.



Reivajar said:


> *Avant *Calatayud-Zaragoza


Wrong, they don´t exist anymore, thank God, they were a waste of space and money.



Reivajar said:


> *AVE * Valencia-Cuenca-Ciudad Real-Puertollano-Córdoba-Sevilla


I also forgot about that one.



Reivajar said:


> There is still separated Avant services between Lleida Camp de Tarragona and Barcelona? If it is, they can be included too.


I think they still exist, yes.



Reivajar said:


> I am not sure if there is anymore else... :dunno:


And there´s also an "AV" (an Alvia running entirely on HSL, which is a silly name) between Alicante and Malaga.



Suburbanist said:


> Do Valencia-Alicante HS trains have to go to Cuenca to reverse, or is there some flyover for them to travel directly like Valencia <=> Albacete


There are no Valencia-Alicante direct HSR services on the HSL.
The line isnb´t finished yet.



Suburbanist said:


> Is this a shuttle service only, or does it continue to Huesca?


It used to be a shuttle service, like the one between Zaragoza and Huesca, that was also luckily discontinued.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> There is the shuttle service one:
> http://horarios.renfe.com/HIRRenfeW...63&G=1&TT=AVANT&ID=s&FDS=2013-09-01&DT=25 min.


:nono: That´s an AVE selling Avant-priced seats.



Reivajar said:


> I am not sure if there is separated Avant to Huesca, but I think currently it is integrated into the AVE Madrid-Huesca, and from Zaragoza part of the seats are sold as Avant.


There is one (weekends two) AVE Madrid-Huesca, which sells some Avant-priced tickets between both Calatayud and Zaragoza on one hand, and between Zaragoza and Tardienta, Tardienta and Huesca and Zaragoza and Huesca.

The rest of services were taken back to the classic line, since they were hardly transporting anyone due to their price and the little population of the area, and also because of the fact that the classic line is only slightly slower than the HSL Zaragoza-Huesca (in which the top speed is only 200 km/h, while the classic line top speed is 160 km/h), and also it gets to a more central station at Zaragoza (Zaragoza-Goya), while the HSL trains only call at Zaragoza-Delicias.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Covering the whole trench would have been nicer and easy...(I suppose it is a wildlife passage).


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Covering the whole trench would have been nicer and easy...(I suppose it is a wildlife passage).


I can´t remember who said that too in the Spanish forum. It wasn´t yourself, I believe... :hmm:

And yes it´s a wildlife passage.


----------



## 437.001

*Side-effects of the new fare system on Easter holidays...*

(translated from Spanish)



luisitoo said:


> Al trains are sold out between Zaragoza and Barcelona tomorrow (in Turista and Turista Plus), the first time I see everything full in this section.


Note: the section Zaragoza-Barcelona has always had a lower occupancy than other sections due to the high number of trains (all the AVE trains to Madrid, plus all the AVE trains to Andalusia, plus all the Alvia trains to Northern Spain).

So these data are remarkable. :banana:


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> And right after the viaduct, a tunnel under Puebla de Sanabria station of the classic line.
> This is the reason why there could be no station here, there´s just no room.


I guess it was prohibitively expensive to make an underground station in the tunnel there right below the one on the classical line. It would have been neat, though.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I guess it was prohibitively expensive to make an underground station in the tunnel there right below the one on the classical line. It would have been neat, though.


For the population that Puebla de Sanabria has (1,541 inhab.), it would have definitely been far too expensive.


----------



## Richard_P

>


Hmm, black catenaries masts, black bridge handrails - new standard? I do admit that I like that, it looks good especially in Spanish conditions. Wonder if it would look the same good in more green scenery as in Germany.


----------



## Reivajar

Richard_P said:


> Hmm, black catenaries masts, black bridge handrails - new standard? I do admit that I like that, it looks good especially in Spanish conditions. Wonder if it would look the same good in more green scenery as in Germany.


I would say they are dark green coloured, as the corporative color of Adif.

But that's true that it is a really dark green which turns almost black depending on light conditions.


----------



## Suburbanist

They should paint them in dark yellow and red, the national colors of the Spanish flag.


----------



## Reivajar

Suburbanist said:


> They should paint them in dark yellow and red, the national colors of the Spanish flag.


ehm.... :crazy:

:lol:

Actually, the best ones are the galvanized ones used in the conventional lines as the degradation of finishing is minimum. Currently, there are some blue poles from the former GIF period which have lost their blue finishing... 

What I am curious about is the color they gone used for the poles over the Ulla river viaduct, which has the apple green color...


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Currently, there are some blue poles from the former GIF period which have lost their blue finishing...


They´re still blue. They still are, yes. :?



Reivajar said:


> What I am curious about is the color they gone used for the poles over the Ulla river viaduct, which has the apple green color...


Rainbow, since it´s Rajoy´s homeland. :troll:



Suburbanist said:


> They should paint them in dark yellow and red, the national colors of the Spanish flag.


Do you want to test the paint? You´ll be the pole. :crazy2: :troll:


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> They´re still blue. They still are, yes. :?


I don't remember who said in the Spanish forum who had seen some poles losing their color... maybe they were the green ones... but somebody had seen green or blue poles losing their colors.

As well, you can see how easily the colored finishing can be damaged in this bridge:



















That's true that the bridge structure has a much larger horizontal surface exposed...


----------



## OriK

437.001 said:


> There are no Valencia-Alicante direct HSR services on the HSL.
> The line isnb´t finished yet.


What about the Euromed?


----------



## 437.001

OriK said:


> What about the Euromed?


The Euromed doesn´t use the HSL yet.

The fact that the current classic line between Xativa and La Encina will be recycled and transformed into the HSL doesn´t change anything.


----------



## Suburbanist

Could a Valencia-Sevilla/Malaga or even Alicante-Sevilla high-speed direct service (not stopping in Madrid, though needing to cross the outskirts) be competitive?


----------



## OriK

There are some direct Valencia - Sevilla AVEs... It takes 3 hours 50 mins... 
I've checked the schedule for this Friday and it's already sold out... It seems that Renfe might need to be more agile scheduling additional services...


----------



## Suburbanist

OriK said:


> There are some direct Valencia - Sevilla AVEs... It takes 3 hours 50 mins...
> I've checked the schedule for this Friday and it's already sold out... It seems that Renfe might need to be more agile scheduling additional services...


How much spare rolling stock does Renfe has though? 

Usually, rail companies don't have a lot of high-speed trains idling on a depot. They cost up to € 40 millions a piece and they are better put in use than left stopped, even if they run relatively empty.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
Between Camp de Tarragona and Barcelona-Sants, near Gelida.

Easter special Trenhotel Barcelona-Corunna, pulled by loco 252.004 and Talgo trainset 6C1.
Note that it´s an Elipsos Talgo, the ones that used to do the international routes.

Image taken yesterday.



BCN2009 said:


>


----------



## gincan

Suburbanist said:


> They should paint them in dark yellow and red, the national colors of the Spanish flag.


In most parts of Spain, paint degrade very quickly due to sun radiation. And it is very expensive to repaint the poles every few years when there are tens of thousands of them. It would probably have been cheaper in the long run to use pure concrete poles like on the Madrid-Seville line, they don't require expensive repainting.


----------



## Reivajar

gincan said:


> In most parts of Spain, paint degrade very quickly due to sun radiation. And it is very expensive to repaint the poles every few years when there are tens of thousands of them. It would probably have been cheaper in the long run to use pure concrete poles like on the Madrid-Seville line, they don't require expensive repainting.


Why concrete poles were not used anymore? Because Adif developed its own standard and the concrete poles on the HSL Madrid-Seville was a German patent?


----------



## gincan

Reivajar said:


> Why concrete poles were not used anymore? Because Adif developed its own standard and the concrete poles on the HSL Madrid-Seville was a German patent?


No, they are just more expensive to build, but that initial extra cost is won back later since they require almost no maintenance.


----------



## Reivajar

gincan said:


> No, they are just more expensive to build, but that initial extra cost is won back later since they require almost no maintenance.


I got it. Thanks. However, Adif could use just galvanized iron poles like in the conventional lines. Out of the color layer, I don't know if those blue and green poles required more maintenance... :dunno:


----------



## 437.001

^^
But, aren´t they galvanized poles just painted? :sly:
It would be rather silly of Adif if they weren´t...


----------



## Reivajar

I don't remember really well, but I think paint doesn't attach well to galvanized iron generally. You need to prepare de galvanize surface for assuring a good attachement between the painting surface and the galvanize surface, and even, under those circumstances many times finally the paint becomes detached.

Anyway, it is pretty common to cover galvanized iron with painting. For sure, I assume the colored poles are galvanized under the paint too.

I've read as well, some studies which stated that paint over galvanized iron makes it around twice more resistant than just regular painted iron or galvanized iron exposed. So, it is not a bad measure to ensure larger resistance.

What I was doubting was the difference of maintenance between concrete poles, just galvanized ones (like in the conventional lines) and the galvanized and painted ones (like in HSLs).


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*.
Section Ourense-Santiago de Compostela.

A class 121 on the river Ulla viaduct, at *Vedra*, on some Avant service bound for Ourense.



> Source: *www.laopinioncoruna.es*


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid Chamartín-Barajas Airport T4*.

Image of the state of the standard gauge connection, still unfinished.
It will be done with a single, standard-gauge track between Chamartín and the Hortaleza sidings (past Fuente de la Mora station, where the current line to the aiport diverges), and with dual gauge between that point you see in the pic and the airport.

The part between the point and the airport station is finished, except that the electrification hasn´t been changed to 25 kV yet, but it´s prepared for that.



neuromancer said:


> elburgo said:
Click to expand...


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a question: once the connection Charmartín-Atocha is finished, will we see many trains like a Santiago-Valencia train or Malaga-Vigo?


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question: once the connection Charmartín-Atocha is finished, will we see many trains like a Santiago-Valencia train or Malaga-Vigo?


Surely more than now. How many? I guess it will depend on the demand.


----------



## Suburbanist

437.001 said:


> Surely more than now. How many? I guess it will depend on the demand.


With a more developed high-speed network they could try revive the Ciudad Real airport


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> With a more developed high-speed network they could try revive the Ciudad Real airport


:smug: Ermmm... I´m not sure about it, to put it lightly.


----------



## krisu99

*The Modern Long Distance Rail Infrastructure Project (MLRIP)*

Hola todos!

I have created a hopefully pretty accurate KMZ file of recent modern long distance / high speed railway lines in Spain during some weeks I was pretty ill. Happily back to life now .

Instead of publishing image maps or such, I'd like to share the entire KMZ file, so everyone can zoom into every detail and also apply enhancements or add more data.
Thus, the MLRIP file is intended for those who enjoy digging hours with Google Earth (like me  and discover how new infrastructure interacts with territory and other networks.

Only lines really under construction (red) or operating (green) are shown, and those whose construction has been abandoned (pink). Three line widths indicate the "speed" of the line (slow < 150km/h, medium <220km/h, high speed >=220km/h).

Furthermore, I have drawn tunnel sections in yellow color. The idea is to show how much "effort" (cost) it takes to build some lines. Lines in the north of Spain are pretty much yellow painted!

Spain has become a really fascinating but also complicated country when it comes to the development of high speed railway lines. Zoom in into some of the major Junctions (traingles, nodes) to see judge yourself what the consequences of moving from Iberian to UIC gauge are....

The maps are not really completed, some tunnels are missing (in Galicia and towards San Sebastian).

You can get the Google Earth KMZ file form my homepage:
>> Modern Long Distance Rail Infrastructure Project (MLRIP)

PS1: I'd like to slowly enhance and enrich the KML. Wouldn't it be cool if we could add some more information to the KML, like gauge change facilities (kml pushpins) or all those new stations along the LAVs? Help would be greatly appreciated, maybe there are other Google Earth freaks out here too? 


PS2: I greatly enjoy following this thread in skyscraper albeit I don't post much. Especially the foto documentaries of newly built lines are fantastic. Great guys! 



Examples regions: 





Enjoy the KMZ & let me know what can be improved


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...er-spanish-high-speed-market.html?channel=542
> 
> *National Express to enter Spanish high-speed market?*
> Tuesday, April 22, 2014
> 
> _NATIONAL Express subsidiary Alsa last week announced it has been granted a license by the Spanish Ministry of Public Works and Transport to operate passenger trains on the Spanish main line network._
> 
> Currently Spain's largest private long-distance bus operator, Alsa has confirmed that this license would allow it to attempt to participate in the partial liberalisation of the long-distance rail market, which is due to start by June.
> 
> The government intends to issue a limited number of temporary permits for licensed companies to operate on selected high-speed routes, competing directly with incumbent operator Renfe.
> 
> Alsa could also bid for Public Service Obligation (PSO) concession contracts for regional and suburban services, which are currently operated by Renfe as soon as this market opens, although this is not expected to happen before 2015.
> 
> A license for Alsa to operate freight trains was granted in 2010, although the company has never operated freight services.
> 
> A number of other companies have been granted licenses to carry passengers on the Spanish network. These include: Veloi Rail, a company funded by Spanish entrepreneur and owner of the Planeta publishing group Mr José Manuel Lara; long-distance bus operators Interbus and Avanza; and Continental Rail, a subsidiary of construction company ACS


----------



## 437.001

^^
As announced here, some posts above.


----------



## OriK

Suburbanist said:


> How much spare rolling stock does Renfe has though?
> 
> Usually, rail companies don't have a lot of high-speed trains idling on a depot. They cost up to € 40 millions a piece and they are better put in use than left stopped, even if they run relatively empty.


I think that finding a driver for the extra services would be much harder than finding an idle train as AFAIK, Renfe has a lot of trains waiting for the opening of new lines.


----------



## Reivajar

krisu99 said:


> Hola todos!
> 
> I have created a hopefully pretty accurate KMZ file of recent modern long distance / high speed railway lines in Spain during some weeks I was pretty ill. Happily back to life now .
> 
> [...]


Amazing work. I would recommend you to check out the situation along the Mediterranean coast between Vandellós and Castellón as most of this line was built with similar standards to the Madrid-Seville HSL, although in Iberian gauge. Most of it will be transformed in multi-gauge and standard gauge in the next years. It allows speeds around 200 km/h, so, you could include it as line in service in your KMZ too.

As well, the line Zaragoza-Tardienta-Huesca allows speeds of 200 km/h: http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Conex...ea_de_Alta_Velocidad_(LAV)_Zaragoza_-_Huesca")


----------



## dimlys1994

437.001 said:


> ^^
> As announced here, some posts above.


Ah, thanks, I didn't noticed


----------



## Wilhem275

I can't find updated info about the Figueres station debate.

Was there a final decision about the old station destiny?


----------



## alserrod

do you mean about the classic line station or the high speed railway station?


----------



## Wilhem275

Actually both  I knew the plan was to dismiss the old one once Vilafant was active, but the city protested a lot due to the poor location of the new station.

I don't know if a final decision about the old station/line was made.


----------



## alserrod

Vilafant station is the new one and nowadays it has several AVE/TGV going from Spain to France (and vv). It started service barely one and a half years ago


----------



## krisu99

Reivajar said:


> Amazing work. I would recommend you to check out the situation along the Mediterranean coast between Vandellós and Castellón as most of this line was built with similar standards to the Madrid-Seville HSL, although in Iberian gauge. Most of it will be transformed in multi-gauge and standard gauge in the next years. It allows speeds around 200 km/h, so, you could include it as line in service in your KMZ too.
> 
> As well, the line Zaragoza-Tardienta-Huesca allows speeds of 200 km/h: http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Conex...ea_de_Alta_Velocidad_(LAV)_Zaragoza_-_Huesca")


Thanks for apreciating. In fact I traveled from BCN to Valencia last summer on board of an AVE S-100 and it was a smooth and fast ride with long sections at 200km/h I guess. 

Though, on my KML I only trace those sections that have been built outside of historic alignments. That's why there are many short "green lines" on my maps along the Mediterranean coast. I find it interesting to know which sections are newly built (i.e. straightened curves or variantes with tunnels like the Tortosa cut-off with the huge viaduct) and also "rediscover" the old slow alignments. Refurbished tracks for higher speeds in exactly the old trackbed are thus not part of the KML. 
That's why the line to Huesca is not included because it entirely runs on the old alignment (except maybe in the Zaragoza region...need to investigate that  ). 
But maybe it would be helpful to the upgraded old "trackbeds" as well, maybe in another color. But then I'd have to add half of Spain, like Madrid-Jaén. Hmm. 
If you carefully scroll across the country, you will see several rather short sections with 3 to 15 km of length that are newly built or currently under construction. Spain is doing a lot even outside the LAV corridors. 

It is not a map about "high speed lines", but more about newly built alignments (mostly) for high speed trains.

Does someone maybe has a geographic list of Cambiadores de Ancho?


----------



## Reivajar

krisu99 said:


> Thanks for apreciating. In fact I traveled from BCN to Valencia last summer on board of an AVE S-100 and it was a smooth and fast ride with long sections at 200km/h I guess.
> 
> Though, on my KML I only trace those sections that have been built outside of historic alignments. That's why there are many short "green lines" on my maps along the Mediterranean coast. I find it interesting to know which sections are newly built (i.e. straightened curves or variantes with tunnels) and also "rediscover" the old slow alignments. Refurbished tracks for higher speeds in exactly the old trackbed are thus not part of the KML.
> That's why the line to Huesca is not included because it entirely runs on the old alignment (except maybe in the Zaragoza region...need to investigate that  ).
> But maybe it would be helpful to the upgraded old "trackbeds" as well, maybe in another color. But then I'd have to add half of Spain, like Madrid-Jaen. Hmm.
> If you carefully scroll across the country, you will see several rather short sections with 3 to 15 km of length that are newly built or currently under construction. Spain is doing a lot even outside the LAV corridors.
> 
> It is not a map about "high speed lines", but more about newly built alignments (mostly) for high speed trains.
> 
> Does someone maybe has a geographic list of Cambiadores de Ancho?


Ah, ok. I understand now better. However, in such case you should check it out old maps of the old line between Madrid and Ciudad Real which was the base trace for the HSL Madrid-Sevilla. Actually, the only really new corridor inaugurated in 1992 between Madrid and Sevilla as HSL was the one between Brazatortas and Córdoba. 










About cambiadores de ancho, if you look for "cambiadores de ancho" in Openstreetmap, I think most of the buildings are well identified. If not, here you have the Map number 6 with the general location of them within the network.


----------



## alserrod

krisu99 said:


> Thanks for apreciating. In fact I traveled from BCN to Valencia last summer on board of an AVE S-100 and it was a smooth and fast ride with long sections at 200km/h I guess.


You're right. A great deal of parts of that line allow 200 but not all of them.

In the future (let's hop soon because it is being the longest civil work in Spain), you'll save time using the HSL Barcelona-Camp de Tarragona and later a new line until southern L'Hospitalet.
Look at google maps
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Ta...2!3m1!1s0x12a3fcdbd3ddf159:0x920569a71387a3b2




> Though, on my KML I only trace those sections that have been built outside of historic alignments.


Sorry but, what's KML???




> That's why there are many short "green lines" on my maps along the Mediterranean coast. I find it interesting to know which sections are newly built (i.e. straightened curves or variantes with tunnels like the Tortosa cut-off with the huge viaduct) and also "rediscover" the old slow alignments. Refurbished tracks for higher speeds in exactly the old trackbed are thus not part of the KML.


Do you mean whole lines now used for other purposes or just few kilometres of the line that are obsolete due to a refurbishement?




> That's why the line to Huesca is not included because it entirely runs on the old alignment (except maybe in the Zaragoza region...need to investigate that  ).



Zaragoza... just 1+1 (classic and UIC track) until Tardienta.
And a new bridge over the Ebro river... located several metres right to the old one (not existing already)
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Za...m2!3m1!1s0xd5914dd5e618e91:0x49df13f1158489a8

But in Huesca look at old line
https://www.google.es/maps/place/Hu...m2!3m1!1s0xd584449d1d84db5:0x2c8dfd864aa74791

New line was opened to traffic in December 2007
It is supposed to continue with refurbishement for 5 km more




> It is not a map about "high speed lines", but more about newly built alignments (mostly) for high speed trains.
> 
> Does someone maybe has a geographic list of Cambiadores de Ancho?


Let me remember

Madrid-Figueres line:
- Plasencia de Jalon (for Madrid-Pamplona and Madrid-Logroño
- Zaragoza (for Barcelona-elsewhere in the north of Spain)

Madrid-Valencia line:
- Valencia (for Madrid-Castellon)

Madrid-Malaga line:
- Bobadilla (for Madrid-Granada and Madrid-Algeciras)

Madrid-Sevilla line:
two ones in Sevilla for Madrid-Cadiz and Madrid-Huelva (Madrid-Huelva doesn't call at Seville)

Madrid-Valladolid line:
- Medina del Campo for Madrid-La Coruña/Vigo
- Valladolid for Madrid-Gijon/Santander/Bilbao/Vitoria/Hendaye...

and two ones more in Madrid for north-south services


Do I miss anyone?

There are someone more that aren't still in use due to new HSL that doesn't require them.


Anyway you can glance

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1219965


----------



## 437.001

Wilhem275 said:


> I can't find updated info about the Figueres station debate.
> 
> Was there a final decision about the old station destiny?


For now Figueres station on the classic line won´t be replaced by Figueres-Vilafant.
There´s no project at all to build the would-be missing link between Figueres-Vilafant and the line towards Portbou/Cerbère.
And btw, that would be expensive, since it would involve at least one long tunnel under Figueres castle.



alserrod said:


> do you mean about the classic line station or the high speed railway station?





Wilhem275 said:


> Actually both  I knew the plan was to dismiss the old one once Vilafant was active, but the city protested a lot due to the poor location of the new station.


As far as I know, the city didn´t protest at all. If anything, they protested against the road level crossing in the classic line station.



Wilhem275 said:


> I don't know if a final decision about the old station/line was made.


There hasn´t been any final decision about it, they´re simply not building that in the years to come. It´s not postponed, just sent to the drawer... probably for good.



alserrod said:


> Vilafant station is the new one and nowadays it has several AVE/TGV going from Spain to France (and vv). It started service barely one and a half years ago


It has international services, and also a number of AVE coming from Madrid (and one from Barcelona, if I remember correctly) that have it as the terminus.
In summer, last year there was an Euromed from Alicante (that is, which runs on the classic line) that also had its terminus at Figueres-Vilafant, but I don´t know wether this year will restart service or not.


----------



## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Palencia station.*

Image of the works at the station to prepare it for the HSL, taken on April 24, 2014.



On that day, the workers at Palencia station were bemused by the weird presence of this thing at the station: 



pachelo said:


>


:wtf: It´s a Cadiz tram-train, on tests...


----------



## Sunfuns

There is a tram-train in Cadiz? 

I found a Spanish wikipedia article, it's a bit outdated but as far as I understood both lines are still under construction. Right? 

P.S. I know it's off-topic, but there is no thread for this yet.


----------



## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Palencia station.*

Image of the works at the station to prepare it for the HSL, taken on April 26, 2014.

(all text translated from Spanish)



pachelo said:


> Well well, D-day, H-hour.
> I´ve been tonight to see how the cut started, and the end of the Iberian gauge for track 1.
> First I went to the south of Palencia, 2 km south, the Villalobón new loop, where in hindsight we can tell the flyover that was used by the Burgos line, and which will be used by the HSL:
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> 
> Same spot, but this time at 22:45 of April 26, and here we have them, the operators preparing things to cut track 1:
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> And a new point allowing trains coming from track 1 to change to track 2:
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> Then I moved north, to the old freight sidings, looking towards the south, the track 2 is occupied by a ballast tamper, behind me, the station is some 100 m away:
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> Now I am more or less oppposite of where I took the picture above, also looking towards the south, the track next to me is track 1, we see an operator cutting track 2, because all the points connecting tracks 2 and 1 will have to be cut:
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> Details of such operation:
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> Now I´ve moved further north, to the station, looking towards the south, we cen tell the station building in hindsight, in the first place track 6, and some machinery on track 4:
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> Now across the tracks again, the same machinery as before, with the station building to our right (and off the image). To our left, some 50 m away and off image too, they´re cutting track 1 too, but there´s not enough light and I can´t take that picture:
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> Across the tracks again, but a little further north, this time looking towards the south, with tracks 6 and 4 in the first place. Opposite, on track 1, the catenary is being dismantled:
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> I went back to where I started taking pictures, to Villalobón loop 2 km south of the station, always looking towards the south, now it´s 23:30, just 45 minutes later, and tracks 1 and 2 have been cut, and they´re preparing things to install the new point:
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> On the left the Villalobón loop, on its right track 2, waiting for the new point, and on the right of that, the gap left by track 1:
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> We´ll see how things are tomorrow.
> Good night.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> There is a tram-train in Cadiz?
> 
> I found a Spanish wikipedia article, it's a bit outdated but as far as I understood both lines are still under construction. Right?
> 
> P.S. I know it's off-topic, but there is no thread for this yet.


´course it is, but I felt like posting it here, because it has no thread yet, and the thing turned up in the middle of the HSL works. 

The Cadiz tram-train line (there´s only one, not two lines) is under construction, and it will run between La Ardila junction on the Seville-Cadiz line til Chiclana de la Frontera through the streets of San Fernando.


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> The Cadiz tram-train line (*there´s only one, not two lines*) is under construction, and it will run between La Ardila junction on the Seville-Cadiz line til Chiclana de la Frontera through the streets of San Fernando.


I read that there is a new bridge under construction from Cadiz to Puerto Real and that there will be a tram line crossing it. Outdated information?


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Palencia station.*

Image of the works at the station to prepare it for the HSL, taken on April 27, 2014.

(all text translated from Spanish)



pachelo said:


> Photos taken this morning.
> Here I am again, at Villalobón loop 2 km south of the station, where the Burgos line flyover used to begin (and which will be used by the HSL).
> At 09.00 in the morning we can see the ballast tamper finishing the Works at the new point that links tracks 1 and 2.
> At the moment that these pictures were taken, railway transit was interrupted at Palencia, since the tamper was on the "only" track to go to Valladolid or Burgos:
> 
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> Now I´m over what used to be track 1, which is now gone here, as well as its catenary:
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> Same spot, but now looking towards the north, we see the operators installing the catenary for the new point:
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> In the rest of the station tonight they did cut all the points that linked track 1 to track 2.
> Cut made at the south of the station, looking towards the north. Left track 1, right track 2:
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> Now back to the station, at the north end of the central platform, looking towards Leon, with track 2 on our left. We can notice some points have been cut:
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> Turning 180º looking to the south and the station building, another point has been cut.
> On our right, track 2:
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> Now I´m at the north side of the station, on the level crossing, in hindsight there´s a point that hasn´t been completely cut, as it´s the only one linking tracks 1 and 2 on the north side. In the first place, track 2, on its right track 1 and sidings that will son be removed, and on the left of track 2, track 4:
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> Zooming, a detail of the point that still links track 2 to track 1 on the north side:
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> And the first train of the day to use such point, at around 12:00, a class 121:
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> And to finish, an Alvia coming from Gijon and bound for Madrid that stood here for more tan 30 minutes, we´re north of the station, looking south, in hindsight the level crossing.
> The pic was taken at 11:20, and the Alvia left Palencia station at 12:05... :no:


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I read that there is a new bridge under construction from Cadiz to Puerto Real and that there will be a tram line crossing it. Outdated information?


I´m answering here.


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Palencia station.*

Two schemes of the works at the station to prepare it for the HSL.



Gusiluz said:


> Palencia station before April 27:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palencia station after April 27:


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Palencia station.*

Image of the works at the station to prepare it for the HSL, taken on April 29, 2014.

(all text translated from Spanish)



pachelo said:


> This morning I went again to the station, and as you can see in the picture, they´re dismantling the catenary on track 1, which is closed since April 27:


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Section Palencia-Leon.*

Images taken between Leon and Torneros stations, taken on May 1, 2014:



RDaneel said:


> DSCN1129 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1130 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> 
> DSCN1131 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> 
> DSCN1132 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1133 por danlx86, en Flickr


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Palencia station.*

Image of the works at the station to prepare it for the HSL, taken on May 2, 2014.

(all text translated from Spanish)



ELZIPO32 said:


> Some pics taken this afternoon at Palencia. No new tale to tell.
> 
> Villalobón loop, looking towards the south, to Valladolid and Burgos:
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> From another overpass, looking to the south. The catenary on track 1 has been dismantled:
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> Now we´ve moved to the north side of the station.
> 
> New sleepers for the part of track 4 that hasn´t been upgraded yet:
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> The works of extension and upgrade of the central platform carry on:


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL.
Section Palencia-Leon.*

Images taken between Leon and Palanquinos stations, taken on May 3, 2014:



RDaneel said:


> Piling up ballast at *Vega de Infanzones*:
> 
> 
> DSCN1134 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> 
> The classic line, in hindsight the Torneros flyover:
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> DSCN1136 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> At Palanquinos, the station is just past that overpass:
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> DSCN1137 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Walking towards the river Esla viaduct:
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> DSCN1138 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1139 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1140 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1141 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> We get to the viaduct:
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> DSCN1142 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1143 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1144 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1145 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Between the piers we can tell the classic line, on its own viaduct:
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> DSCN1146 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Sleepers piled up on the viaduct, waiting:
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> DSCN1147 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> From the other side:
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> DSCN1148 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1149 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1150 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1151 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1152 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> 
> 
> Now we are at Torneros... to take some pictures of this overpass, the only point in which the works have not started, and which should be demolished very soon... otherwise there´s no way that the HSL will ever get further north from Palencia:
> 
> 
> DSCN1153 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1154 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> 
> From next to the overpass that will be demolished, we can tell Torneros station and the HSL flyover in hindsight:
> 
> 
> DSCN1155 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> From the overpass to be demolished, looking towards Leon:
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> DSCN1156 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> DSCN1157 por danlx86, en Flickr
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> 
> 
> From the overpass to be demolished, looking towards Torneros station (and Palencia), and the HSL flyover in hindsight:
> 
> 
> DSCN1158 por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1159 por danlx86, en Flickr


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL + Madrid-Avila-Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria-Irun/Hendaye classic line.
Section Valladolid-Venta de Baños.*

Images taken between Valladolid-Campo Grande and Tres Hermanos stations, taken on May 4, 2014:

_(all texts translated from Spanish, but some comments have been added by *437.001*)_



pachelo said:


> Today I´ve been to Valladolid, where HSL works have not started yet inside the city.
> This is the Calle Puente la Reina level crossing, we can tell that one of the tracks already has HSL-like electrification poles:
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> Same spot, but zooming. We can tell the bridge over river Esgueva and the place where the HSL-like poles stop.
> [note by *437.001*: we´re discussing on the Spanish forum wether two more tracks could be stuffed between the station and the place where the HSL diverges from the classic line or not. I believe it would be possible]:
> 
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> Then I went to Valladolid-Universidad station, and I could see the new poles coming from the south (Valladolid-Campo Grande, Madrid):
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> Valladolid-Universidad, looking towards the north (Venta de Baños, Palencia, Burgos), to where the new poles carry on:
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> A bit further north towards Venta de Baños, both tracks have got the new poles:
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> I guess this goes on till the place where both classic line and HSL diverge:


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## Suburbanist

When can we realistically expect the Cadiz-Sevilla link to be operating at full specs?

Also - are there plans to extend HSL from Antaquera to Granada and Almería? Or is it more feasible an extension from Alicante-Cartagena?


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## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> When can we realistically expect the Cadiz-Sevilla link to be operating at full specs?


By the end of the year or the beginning of next year it should be finished, it almost is now.
There´s only one part that hasn´t been upgraded yet, the section between Marismilla (where the double track ends if you come from Cadiz) and Utrera.
The rest is in service.

Btw, that´s not a full HSL.



Suburbanist said:


> Also - are there plans to extend HSL from Antaquera to Granada and Almería?


The HSL between Antequera and Granada should open by next year, if all goes well (there are nearly no pics from those works, sorry for that... :clown, exception made of the section around Loja, which got stuck between the crisis and some serious geological problems, and the lack of which will be solved by putting a third rail on the classic line. The upgrade of Granada station shouldn´t take long to start, and it will be done at the same time as the tramway works. 

As for the section between Almeria and Granada, there are no HSL plans whatsoever, that´s one of the most difficult mountain lines in Spain and it would involve massive tunneling, and besides, the HSL to Almeria is under construction too, but from Murcia. The only thing that we guess could be done between Granada and Almeria would be the electrification of the missing section between Granada and Huéneja-Dólar (the rest between Huéneja-Dólar and Almeria is already electrified, although it could do with a slight upgrade of the electrification -the current one isn´t in very good state).



Suburbanist said:


> Or is it more feasible an extension from Alicante-Cartagena?


That´s in works between Alicante and Murcia (yesterday I posted some pics of those works on the Railways thread). The section between Murcia and Cartagena will be electrified and will get the third rail, that´s all.


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## Reivajar

The new HSL Antequera-Loja-Granada is about to be open soon too. Except the section which cross the urban area of Loja, the rest of line is partially a new line and an upgrade of the current line (similar to the work done between Crevillent and Murcia, or the Seville-Cadiz line). So Granada will get a new high speed link too as a high speed branch of the Córdoba-Málaga HSL.

For Almería, the high speed link is planned to be built from Murcia, and this way, the connection between Andalusia and Murcia will be reopened as part of the Mediterranean Corridor. Actually, some sections and tunnels between Murcia and Almeria are already finished, but works are suspended in that line because of the cuts.

437.001 is quicker than me.


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> 437.001 is quicker than me.


:baeh3: :banana: :lol:


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Segovia-Olmedo junction-Valladolid HSL*.

Between Olmedo junction and the Valdestillas gauge changer, Adif has some plants growing in a funny way:



eme.o.hache said:


>


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## gincan

Suburbanist said:


> Also - are there plans to extend HSL from Antaquera to Granada and Almería? Or is it more feasible an extension from Alicante-Cartagena?





437.001 said:


> As for the section between Almeria and Granada, there are no HSL plans whatsoever, that´s one of the most difficult mountain lines in Spain and it would involve massive tunneling.


The study for this route is already done (http://www.vialibre-ffe.com/noticias.asp?not=7965&cs=alta), the project for the whole line was posted on the spanish railway forum (tranvia) some 3-4 years ago, 180-250km/h depending on the sub section and a handful of longer tunnels 2-4 km in length. If built, the new railway would cut the travel time beween Granada and Almeria in half from the current situation (65 min instead of the current 130 min).

Granda-Almería project

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24605445/Estudio-informativo-Almeria-Granada

158km of new railway

22km of new tunnels

18,5km of new bridges

Average speed ~200km/h (65 min for 182 km)

Cost: 2200 million euros

Status: scrapped by the current government


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## solchante

more info about Sevilla-Granada-Almería project, here:

http://www.geotren.es/blog/tag/granada/


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## Silly_Walks

So are they actually working on high speed lines between Sevilla-Antequera and Antequera-Granada?


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## Reivajar

Silly_Walks said:


> So are they actually working on high speed lines between Sevilla-Antequera and Antequera-Granada?


They are between Antequera and Granada, but they aren't between Seville and Antequera.


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## Sunfuns

What is the current plan on joining Valladolid-Burgos line with Basque Y between Burgos and Vitoria? A brand new line, upgrade of the current one or perhaps just double gauging the existing route?


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> What is the current plan on joining Valladolid-Burgos line with Basque Y between Burgos and Vitoria? A brand new line, upgrade of the current one or perhaps just double gauging the existing route?


There is no official plan by now.

Furthermore the Estepar tunnel construction on the HSL Valladolid-Burgos has been stopped this week because of administrative issues ( don't ask, nobody knows... :nuts: ). Anyway, the solution for Burgos-Vitoria won't arrive before the opening of the Basque Y and the HSL Valladolid-Burgos, but by now, the dual gauge track on the current line between Burgos and Vitoria via Miranda seems to be the most feasible option. In the long term, a new HSL line would be the optimal choice.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant HSL*.
Section Barcelona-Girona.

A TGV from Paris-Gare de Lyon bound for Barcelona-Sants, arrival at 20:40.
Image taken at Vilanova del Vallès.



BCN2009 said:


> TGV en Vilanova del Vallès por BCN06, en Flickr


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## 437.001

*Zaragoza-Delicias station*.

Images of the new Oaris train, by CAF, taken in March 2014.
It´s a prototype.



Adpg said:


>





luisitoo said:


>





Bruce Harper said:


>


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Seville HSL.*
*La Sagra depot*.

This is the central HSR depot, and it is located between Madrid and the junction of the Toledo branch. 
The image was taken in March 2014.



eme.o.hache said:


>


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## 437.001

Video filmed in March 2014, showing how the *Avril prototype*, by Talgo, was being taken from Las Matas Talgo workshop to La Sagra HSR Renfe depot.



dirdam said:


>


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## 437.001

Pictures taken in March 2014, showing how the *Avril prototype*, by Talgo, was being taken from Las Matas Talgo workshop to La Sagra HSR Renfe depot.



Manamer said:


> At *Las Matas*:
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> At *Seseña*:
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> Detail of the Vevey special bogies:
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> At *Algodor*:
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> At *Villaseca-Mocejón*:


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## 437.001

*Castillejo Añover-Algodor-Toledo classic line + Villaluenga Yuncler-Algodor line.*
*Algodor station*.

Video filmed in March 2014, showing how the *Avril prototype*, by Talgo, was being taken from Las Matas Talgo workshop to La Sagra HSR Renfe depot.



neuromancer said:


>


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos/Palencia HSL*.

Scheme envisaged at *Valladolid*.

Left, Valladolid-Campo Grande station (towards Madrid). Right, towards Venta de Baños.
Red is for Iberian gauge. Blue for standard gauge (the HSL).



Gusiluz said:


> First phase:
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> On June 22:
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> Definitive situation (no date yet). Note that the Valladolid gauge changer disappears:


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos/Palencia HSL*.

Images taken at the place the HSL meets the classic line, just north of *Valladolid*.



pachelo said:


> Looking towards Valladolid:
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> Looking towards Venta de Baños:


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos/Palencia HSL*.

Images taken at the place the HSL meets the classic line, just north of *Valladolid*.



pachelo said:


> Looking towards Venta de Baños:
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> Looking towards Valladolid:


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## 437.001

*Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia-Leon HSL*.
*Section Palencia-Leon*.

Images taken on May 11, 2014.



RDaneel said:


> At *Vilecha*, just outside Leon, looking towards *Leon*:
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> 
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> At *Villada*:
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
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> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> At *Bercianos del Real Camino*:
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> At *El Burgo Ranero*:
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Obras LAV Palencia-León por danlx86, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Segovia-Olmedo junction-Valladolid HSL*.
*Section Madrid-Segovia*.

Two aerial views, both taken near *Soto del Real*.

Arroyo del Valle viaduct:



eme.o.hache said:


>




Guadarrama tunnel southern twin portals:



eme.o.hache said:


>


----------



## 437.001

JoFMO said:


> Very interesting news. Can you give some deeper informations:
> 
> - Does Leon include the branch to Burgos?


No. Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon in two phases.

The first phase will be Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia, the second Palencia-Leon, the both of them for 2015.

There will be three new gauge changers, one at Palencia and two at Leon, and the current gauge changer at Valladolid-Campo Grande will disappear (only the ones at Valdestillas and Medina del Campo will be left in the Valladolid area).

Venta de Baños-Burgos is far less advanced, it couldn´t be realy next year at all, there´s a missing tunnel yet! :dunno:



JoFMO said:


> - What about Valencia-Alacant?


The section Valencia-Xativa-La Encina junction (near Villena) is rather advanced, although I´m not so sure it would open by 2015. 

The section between La Encina junction and Alicante is already open as part of the Madrid-Alicante HSL.


----------



## formiguera

In fact, the section Xativa -La Encina is now under construction of catenary infrastructure and railway suprestructure. This stage, affecting to the renewed iberian gaugue old line, must be done and put in service, before it could be changed the existing section in iberian gauge (250 km/h speed) and 3kv, to international gauge and, perhaps, 25kV


----------



## 437.001

formiguera said:


> In fact, the section Xativa -La Encina is now under construction of catenary infrastructure and railway suprestructure. This stage, affecting to the renewed iberian gaugue old line, must be done and put in service, before it could be changed the existing section in iberian gauge (250 km/h speed) and 3kv, to international gauge and, perhaps, 25kV


^^
What he means is that the old classic line between Xativa and La Encina is being reconstructed between Moixent and La Encina and it will be reopened in Iberian gauge, and the platform of the classic line between L´Alcudia de Crespins and Moixent is being reconstructed to adapt it for a possible future double-tracking. 
The tension used will be 3 kV. It´s rather advanced now (they´re laying the tracks and electrification poles), but it´s not advancing all that fast.

While the HSL, already in use between Xativa and La Encina but in Iberian gauge and 3 kV, once this above opens, will be regauged to standard and reelectrified from 3 kV to 25 kV, and will allow speeds up to 250 km/h.

The section between Valencia and Xativa will be able for speeds up to 300 km/h and is entirely new.
The electrification and signalling is not advanced between Valencia and Xativa, but the tracks are finished, and the upgrade of Xativa station is very advanced too.


----------



## Sunfuns

Xativa will be the only intermediary station on the HSL, correct?


----------



## JoFMO

437.001 said:


> No. Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Leon in two phases.
> 
> The first phase will be Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Palencia, the second Palencia-Leon, the both of them for 2015.
> 
> There will be three new gauge changers, one at Palencia and two at Leon, and the current gauge changer at Valladolid-Campo Grande will disappear (only the ones at Valdestillas and Medina del Campo will be left in the Valladolid area).
> 
> Venta de Baños-Burgos is far less advanced, it couldn´t be realy next year at all, there´s a missing tunnel yet! :dunno:


That means trains to Burgos will have to change gauge at Valdestillas instead of Campo Grande?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Xativa will be the only intermediary station on the HSL, correct?


Correct.



JoFMO said:


> That means trains to Burgos will have to change gauge at Valdestillas instead of Campo Grande?


Correct, they will change at Valdestillas (some already do now in case of trouble -delay, etc), but in case of trouble the gauge changer at Medina del Campo could also be used.


----------



## alserrod

alserrod said:


> y otra que cacé de casualidad
> 
> Alvia Irún/Bilbao - Barcelona pasando por Utebo




this train departs from Irun and from Bilbao. They are two trains indeed which are joined at Castejon de Ebro. They run over the classic line until the begining of Zaragoza-Delicias station where they will change the gauge to standard one and take the HSL until Barcelona.

From Casetas station to Zaragoza there are commuter trains also. This picture is taken from Utebo commuter station.


----------



## krisu99

Silly_Walks said:


> So are they actually working on high speed lines between Sevilla-Antequera and Antequera-Granada?


Hi

if you want, check out the rather complicated situation with the help of a Google Earth file (KMZ) I created, it shows what is currently under construction and which HSL lines under construction are for the moment abandoned. Only lines that are becoming visibly "real" (in Google Earth or Bing) are shown, no projects....

Basically, what is not on the KMZ is very unlikely it will be built within the next 10 years or so because the missing gaps are filled with "cheap" third rail sections on classic old iberian gauged lines. Or won't be used at all within a 10 to 15year future (lines colored in pink).

Get the Google Earth KMZ for spanish Medium and High Speed lines at
http://retrofutur.org/rail


enjoy


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*.
Section Cáceres-Mérida.

The platform between Cáceres and Aldea del Cano has been finished.



> Source: Vía Libre


----------



## Sunfuns

That last picture is particularly cool. Unusual landscape, not really a forest and not open fields either. What are those frequent crossings? The one in the foreground looks like an unpaved rural road. Is that so?


----------



## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> That last picture is particularly cool. Unusual landscape, not really a forest and not open fields either. What are those frequent crossings? The one in the foreground looks like an unpaved rural road. Is that so?


That kind of landscape is the usual in Western Spain (Extremadura, part of the provinces of Zamora, Salamanca, Toledo and Ciudad Real, Northern Andalusia) and inner part of Southern Portugal (particularlly the Alentejo region). This kind of thinned out Mediterranean forest, whose most representative trees are the cork oak (_alcornoque _in Spanish) and the holm oak (_encina _in Spanish) is named _*dehesa *_in Spanish and montado in Portuguese. It is pretty particular because it makes compatible the maitenance of the traditional forest and other uses (crops and livestock, such as the Fighting bull).

The point is that its color is completely different in Spring and partially in Fall and Winter because all the grasslands get green, and Summer, where you get a nice yellow background spotted by amazing big dark green trees. 

And yes, probably it is just a rural unpaved road. This is not unproductive space, so paths for rural needs are usual in this kind of landscape. Here you have a link to Bing Maps which displays pretty good the trace of the HSL through this landscape: http://binged.it/1gPAnxi


----------



## Sunfuns

Reivajar said:


> That kind of landscape is the usual in Western Spain (Extremadura, part of the provinces of Zamora, Salamanca, Toledo and Ciudad Real, Northern Andalusia) and inner part of Southern Portugal (particularlly the Alentejo region). This kind of thinned out Mediterranean forest, whose most representative trees are the cork oak (_alcornoque _in Spanish) and the holm oak (_encina _in Spanish) is named _*dehesa *_in Spanish and montado in Portuguese. It is pretty particular because it makes compatible the maitenance of the traditional forest and other uses (crops and livestock, such as the Fighting bull).
> 
> The point is that its color is completely different in Spring and partially in Fall and Winter because all the grasslands get green, and Summer, where you get a nice yellow background spotted by amazing big dark green trees.


Thanks for info. Haven't been in those places yet.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> That kind of landscape is the usual in Western Spain (Extremadura, part of the provinces of Zamora, Salamanca, Toledo and Ciudad Real, Northern Andalusia) and inner part of Southern Portugal (particularlly the Alentejo region). This kind of thinned out Mediterranean forest, whose most representative trees are the cork oak (_alcornoque _in Spanish) and the holm oak (_encina _in Spanish) is named _*dehesa *_in Spanish and montado in Portuguese. It is pretty particular because it makes compatible the maitenance of the traditional forest and other uses (crops and *livestock, such as the Fighting bull*).


Not to forget the Iberian swines, from which they get the famous ham.  :eat:


----------



## Reivajar

That's true! 

_Cerdo de bellota_ (oak nut feeded pig)  The best ham ever.

Yummy!


----------



## dirdam

^^


----------



## Reivajar

Anyway, Spanish expression: _not to mix up fat and speed_ :lol:


----------



## Bitxofo

Reivajar said:


> Anyway, Spanish expression: _not to mix up fat and speed_ :lol:


"The bacon with the velocity"... LOL
:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## neuromancer

Viaduct over the River Almonte in the Madrid-Extremadura-Lisbon high speed line:



dirdam said:


> Vídeo desde un dron de la situación actual del Viaducto del Río Almonte
> 
> 96576515


----------



## JumpUp

Hey!

A couple of quick questions:

After the Ourense - Olmedo HSL is opened (in a couple of years) the Santiago - Ourense HSL gets converted to standart gauge.

What happens with the "Santiago - A Coruna" and the (soon to be opened) HSL stretch to Vigo? will the lines be convertet to Iberian / standart gauge or both

Last Question: What happens with A Coruna - Betanzos - Ferrol in the next years? Will it stay like today (One track, no electrification?)

Thanks!!


----------



## CityDreamer

Numbers of passengers keep rising on the AVE high speed lines in Spain..

http://www.02b.com/en/notices/2014/...speed_route_close_to_61_market_share_7258.php



> The number of rail travellers using high speed rail connections in Spain went up by 20.3% to 8.58 million in this year's quarter one and two. Meanwhile, the brand new silent services filled up 80% of seats during their first weeks of operation.


----------



## Sunfuns

Silent services? What's that? A bad translation from Spanish?


----------



## telemaxx

It is mentioned in the link:


> Statistics released by Renfe has sold 14,853 tickets since these services were premiered on July, 7. It is worth noting that carriages in these rail links are dimly lit, with long mobile phone and seatmate conversations strictly prohibited.
> 
> The measure is part of a wider plan to boost demand and cater for a particular market segment. "There exists a number of passengers willing to travel in complete silence, so that they are able to work, read or relax", the launch campaign read.


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> Silent services? What's that? A bad translation from Spanish?


Not at all!

Starting this month of July, in several services and trains you can book a "silent car". There will be no loudspeakers except in emergencies, mobiles are forbidden either talking loud with anyone. Light will be weak and it is set forward those people who want to sleep, peace or just work on your laptop without any disturbs.


----------



## Sunfuns

Ok, thanks for explanation. I guess in England you'd call them quiet carriages. Why not if there is a demand.


----------



## alserrod

There are three newness in Renfe since this month of July:

- available to pay on paypal (I am not sure if with the app it is still available but on the web you can)

- quiet seats (or "silence cars") as I explained

- door to door baggage

This last service costs 22 euro each baggage and you can carry up to three of them. 
It is managed by the official Postal service but you may book in the renfe.com web and it is mandatory to have a long distance ticket.

It is not only from town to town but from any villages in the province where you arrive and the boundary provinces (by the way, in the case where I live I would be able to choose either from north of Navarra till Tarragona or Guadalajara but that's another issue).

You can book the service and before several hours your depart, Postal service will pick your baggage. You go to the railway station and you travel (you can book up to 25 kg and take a little baggage with you). 
It is not mandatory to give the baggage in the station where you arrive. For instance someone can be waiting you and driving home by car after a corner to corner journey. Baggage will arrive more or less the next day in the address you have requested (it can be a house, a hotel or so on...).
And by the way, they say they add the Mallorca island (but I really do not know which provinces are boundary with Mallorca...). Anyway you can travel by train to Barcelona or Valencia and later a ferry avoiding to pick on the weighter baggage


----------



## Richard_P

Today IRJ writes about flooding in Girona


IRJ said:


> AVE and Avant passengers can use regional trains to reach Figueres from Girona via the conventional line, while passengers travelling to and from France are forced to use buses to reach Perpignan as TGV services will not operate across the border while the line through Girona is closed.


I am wondering why HS connections were cancelled as UIC gauge trains can use third rail track to bypass flooded section. Is it because of capacity constrains (only one track available) or because 3 kV DC voltage trains shortage?


----------



## Suburbanist

When will the line reopen?


----------



## Reivajar

^^ Nobody knows. There are millions of litres inside the tunnel, up to 8 meters height in the lower part of the tunnel under the Ter river. After emptying the tunnel, it will need to be cleaned as it is expected that tons of mud will remain there, and this way you will need more water for cleaning everything. One important factor will be checking out if the pumps installed originally in the tunnel can work again for making it easier.

There is another tricky thing was told about this incident: maybe the huge load of tons of water inside the tunnel have damaged the platform, as it was not calculated for that heavy loads... we'll see. Finally, with that amount of water all the electric systems and signage will need to be checked carefully... so... who knows...


----------



## AlexNL

Richard_P said:


> Today IRJ writes about flooding in Girona
> 
> I am wondering why HS connections were cancelled as UIC gauge trains can use third rail track to bypass flooded section. Is it because of capacity constrains (only one track available) or because 3 kV DC voltage trains shortage?


Why don't the TGV trains run to Figueres Vilafant?


----------



## gincan

Richard_P said:


> Today IRJ writes about flooding in Girona
> 
> I am wondering why HS connections were cancelled as UIC gauge trains can use third rail track to bypass flooded section. Is it because of capacity constrains (only one track available) or because 3 kV DC voltage trains shortage?


Because there are no tri-tension trains beyond loco hauled freight trains, there are 25 kV AC/3 kV DC and 25 kV AC/1,5 kV DC but no 25 kV AC/3 kV DC/1,5 kV DC HSR trains.


----------



## Richard_P

^^ Well according to this wikipedia site AVE S-100 are tri tension and those serve trains to France. France also has tri tension TGVs but they may be not certified (equipped) for use in Spain.


----------



## gincan

Richard_P said:


> ^^ Well according to this wikipedia site AVE S-100 are tri tension and those serve trains to France. France also has tri tension TGVs but they may be not certified (equipped) for use in Spain.


The only tri-tension trains in Spain are 4 Renfe series 252 that haul cargo trains between the port of Barcelona and France.

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe_Serie_252

The Renfe series 101 was originally 3 kV DC but converted to Renfe series 100F, 25 kV AC/1,5kV DC for the international route.

http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe..._10_unidades_para_circular_por_la_red_de_SNCF

There is no point in having tri-tension HRS trains in Spain as the only 3kV standard gauge railway is the freight corridor between Barcelona port and the French border.


----------



## Richard_P

^^OK, but either way temporarily solution could include S-130 shuttles to Figueres Villafant (using standard gauge track (lack of cambiador) and transfer to TGV there. This would be better than using bus.


----------



## dirdam

gincan said:


> The Renfe series 101 was originally 3 kV DC but converted to Renfe series 100F, 25 kV AC/1,5kV DC for the international route.
> 
> http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/Renfe..._10_unidades_para_circular_por_la_red_de_SNCF


That's incorrect.

The whole EMUs class 100 and 101 were originally bitension 3kV DC / 25kV 50Hz. Today, former class 101 is integrated in class 100 (100.019 to 024).

And the EMUs adapted to run in France are the number 100.015 to 024. They are now bitension 1,5kV DC / 25kV 50Hz.



Richard_P said:


> ^^OK, but either way temporarily solution could include S-130 shuttles to Figueres Villafant (using standard gauge track (lack of cambiador) and transfer to TGV there. This would be better than using bus.


I suppose that there are no EMUs class 130 available for make these shuttles.


----------



## Reivajar

Well, it has been much quicker than expected. No other damages has been detected in the HSL tunnel of Girona till now, and after finishing of emptying the tunnel and checking out systems, this evening the high speed service has been resumed.


----------



## Reivajar

More information about the Girona tunnel incident.

According to the Spanish newspaper _El Periódico_, after emptying the tunnel, 8 switch motors have been replaced, as well as 4000 meters of wire for the signaling system and other 4000 m for the emergency system. Finally part of the lighting of the tunnel and emergency exits and 2 pumps have been replaced too.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://railoutlook.com/index.php/hi...-high-speed-services-restart.html?channel=542
> 
> *France - Spain high-speed services restart*
> Monday, October 06, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPAIN's infrastructure manager Adif reopened the Figueres - Barcelona high-speed line on Saturday evening, five full days after the line was closed following severe flooding in the 7km tunnel below Girona.
> 
> In cooperation with the local emergency services and the Spanish Army, around 40,000m3 of water was extracted from a 1.8km section of the tunnel, located 40m below the surface.
> 
> Adif also replaced 4km of cable used for communications and signalling, as well as 4km of electric wiring, two water extraction pumps, eight point motors, and service and emergency lighting along the whole flooded section
> 
> ...


----------



## Tower Dude

So what are they doing to prevent this in the future?


----------



## Reivajar

Tower Dude said:


> So what are they doing to prevent this in the future?


Actually, the origin of the incident is pretty evident: the well used for tunneling was kept open, and at that place there is an adjacent river. So, the solution is easy: closing and waterproofing that "hole" and assuring that the water stay in the river bend.


----------



## I(L)WTC

dirdam said:


> [offtopic]
> 
> 
> 
> Argentinian quality:
> 
> 
> [/offtopic]


It's ..... American :nuts::banana:


----------



## Tower Dude

Glad to hear it!


----------



## Sunfuns

I took AVE train from Barcelona to Zaragoza and back few days ago. Excellent service, fast and comfortable. We were also lucky to get relatively cheap tickets. Zaragoza station is massively overbuilt, though. A station half the size (and cost) would have served just fine. 

Anyway the reason I'm posting here is different. I saw (see photo below) some unfinished railway around Camp Tarragona, some of it running parallel and eventually joining our line towards Barcelona, some also curving away in the opposite direction (sharply to the right and away looking towards Barcelona). Is that the connection to the future coastal route? Ballast is already there, but no one seemed to be working on the stretch visible from the train.


----------



## dirdam

Sunfuns said:


> Is that the connection to the future coastal route?


Yes, it is. This new stretch will have about 45 km and will connect with the existing coast line south of Vandellòs. The whole line from Vandellòs to Valencia will be changed to standard gauge (one of the tracks may have dual gauge).


----------



## krisu99

"This new stretch will have about 45 km ..."

Well, "new"? Works started back in 2000. 14 years later it is still not open, and grass was growing over the already built alignment for some years now. Maybe now they started to lay the tracks as it seems they have finally rolled the dices concerning the question what kind of gauge to install. Also, it seems that the 1,8km tunnel requires significant improvements to satisfy newer safety norms.... 

The politically pushed UIC corridor along the mediterranean is ...well...a nightmare ...


----------



## Suburbanist

Is there a long-term plan to eradicate broad gauge in all Spain lines?


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL* (section Zamora-Ourense).

Two images taken next to *A Mezquita-Vilavella* station on the classic line. It's a bit cold, these days...



Agüelo said:


>


----------



## franciscoc

it says the president of ADIF on the model of high speed in Spain. He is the President of ADIF, are not words of other experts and professors who criticize mobility model unsustainable (José María Menéndez, Mateu Turro, José Manuel Vassallo, Germa Bel .....)

http://www.abc.es/economia/20141009/abci-adif-alta-velocidad-201410081823.html

** "With a direct and incisive speech, President of ADIF, Gonzalo Ferre said Wednesday October 8 that" we must take much imagination "for investments carried out by the public company" have the productivity that taxpayers deserve . "In this regard, he mentioned lower occupancy of high-speed trains Spaniards compared with that of neighboring countries and riveted." what does not make sense is an AVE with 24 million passengers (the current demand) . neither makes sense and is sustainable. "

President rail operator as an example to other European countries, with higher occupancy rates in high-speed trains, as in the case of Germany (160 million passengers) and France (120 million). In addition to the infrastructure already built, Ferre, speaking at a breakfast organized by Executive Forum, identified as one of the main problems the low congestion in the Spanish market. "The railroad needs congestion, because it is what allows entering the cities at speeds that have no other means of transport 'he said.

Then there are some fellow members, who want to convince us otherwise in a country with runaway debt and 25% unemployment

end of off topic


----------



## Gusiluz

*Prototype testing Talgo AVRIL G3*

On January 8th began the tests in track for validation of *pantograph* Talgo Avril G3 (serial number: 112.601).

The tests provided for validation of Avril pantograph which have not yet finished and require prior exhaustive work, which began on December 4 with the removal of instrumented high pantograph and the camera view Black and White from auscultation train _Séneca_, for transfer to La Sagra and rear mount Avril train. Following the review and adjustment, between days 10 and December 12 were installed in the new unit Talgo.

Once this operation is performed the following operations:
* Calibration and functional verification in static, set prior to the aerodynamic testing.
* The aerodynamic tests simultanean with tests vehicle-track interaction. These tests should be extended to reach 330 km/h.

You need to have a large sample of all situations of different sections of track and all speeds, to establish both the aerodynamic corrections wipers as static pressure curves, depending on the speed-introduced into the system train, to achieve the target average force curves established by the TSI.
The work done are the performance measures in accordance with EN-50317 and test protocols according to records published for this purpose.
On January 8, testing began in track, reaching speeds of 300 km/h. Its implementation is being carried over long distances, circulating in steps of constant speed of 20 to 20 km/h to 330 km/h.
The test routes require line sections with operational lifting meters contact wire.
Once testing is complete, the work of dismantling the pantograph and instrumentation associated, for reassembly at the _Séneca_ train will begin.

The new "Consigna" (law text) of *Avril testing* lasts until 30.06.2015 (but not the last).
Comprising lines of Madrid to Seville, Toledo, Malaga, Valencia and Barcelona, and Saturdays and Sundays at night time are made, when no maintenance.

Requirements:
He suspended driving on the adjacent road when driving through tunnels or speeds above 270 km/h. (Normal in the first tests).
-The Maximum speed in the tunnels will be 220 km/h.
Not exceed speed limits or limitations ... except under certain conditions.
Never will be overcome ms² 6 uncompensated lateral acceleration in bogie (or “rodal”) measured continuously and filtered to 10 Hz.

There is a table with the maximum speeds for the Madrid-Seville line and I call attention to the 294 km/h between 7,539 and 9,528 pk (200 for the rest) from 207 km/h: look acceleration tests, although they could do from standstill in other places with greater speed limit.
It may drive 300 with *side winds* up to 80 km/h; at 280 for 85; 130 for 100; and testing will be suspended with winds of over 100 km/h.

The intranet portal _Inicia_ include pictures of Avril best I've seen so far, pity they are not very large.







More information on wikipedia (in Spanish)
...................................................
El pasado 8 de enero se iniciaron las pruebas en vía para la validación del pantógrafo del tren de alta velocidad Avril G3 de Talgo.
Las pruebas establecidas para la validación del pantógrafo del Avril -que aún no han finalizado- requieren un trabajo exhaustivo previo, que se inició el 4 de diciembre con el desmontaje del pantógrafo instrumentado “de alta” y de la cámara con visión B/N del tren auscultador Séneca, para su traslado a La Sagra y posterior montaje en el tren Avril. Tras la revisión y ajustes, entre los días 10 y 12 de diciembre se instalaron en la nueva unidad de Talgo.
Una vez realizada esta operación se llevan a cabo las siguientes operaciones: 
* La calibración y verificación funcional del conjunto en estático, previamente a las pruebas aerodinámicas.
* Las pruebas aerodinámicas se simultanean con las pruebas de interacción vehículo-vía. Estas pruebas deben prolongarse hasta alcanzar los 330 km/h.
Es necesario tener una muestra amplia de todas las situaciones de los distintos tramos de vía y a todas las velocidades, para poder establecer tanto las correcciones aerodinámicas de los frotadores, como las curvas de presión estática, en función de la velocidad a introducir en el sistema del tren, a fin de conseguir las curvas de fuerza media objetivo establecidas por la ETI.
Los trabajos desarrollados consisten en la realización de medidas conforme a la norma EN-50317 y los protocolos de pruebas según consigna publicada al efecto.
El pasado 8 de enero, se iniciaron las pruebas en vía, alcanzándose la velocidad de 300 km/h. Su ejecución se está realizando en recorridos largos, circulando en escalones de velocidad constante, de 20 en 20 km/h, hasta los 330 km/h.
Los trayectos de prueba requieren tramos de línea con medidores de elevación de hilo de contacto operativos.
Una vez finalizadas las pruebas, se iniciarán las labores de desmontaje del pantógrafo e instrumentación asociada, para su montaje de nuevo en el tren Séneca.
La nueva Consigna de Pruebas del Avril tiene una duración hasta el 30/06/2015 (pero no será la última).
Comprende las líneas de Madrid a Sevilla, Toledo, Málaga, Valencia y Barcelona, y se realizan los sábados y domingos en periodo nocturno, cuando no hay mantenimiento.
Requerimientos:
-Se suspenderá la circulación por la vía contigua cuando se circule por túneles o a velocidades superiores a 270 km/h. (Lo normal en las primeras pruebas).
-La velocidad máxima en los túneles será de 220 km/h.
-No excederán las velocidades máximas ni las limitaciones ... excepto con ciertas condiciones.
-Nunca se superarán los 6 ms² de aceleración lateral no compensada en bogie y rodal, medida de forma continua y filtrada a 10 Hz.
Hay una tabla con las velocidades máximas para la línea Madrid-Sevilla, y me llaman la atención los 294 km/h entre los pk 7,539 y 9,528 (a 200 para el resto) desde los 207 km/h: parecen pruebas de aceleración, aunque se podían hacer desde parado en otros puntos con mayor velocidad máxima permitida.
Se podrá circular a 300 con vientos laterales de hasta 80 km/h; a 280 hasta 85; a 130 hasta 100; y se suspenderán las pruebas con vientos de más de 100 km/h.
En el portal de intranet Inicia incluyen las mejores fotos del Avril que he visto hasta ahora, lástima que no sean muy grandes.


----------



## Sunfuns

I see the development program is proceeding along nicely. Thanks for the details. 

Can you remind us whether this new train has already been ordered by someone (Renfe?) and how much longer till commercial certification.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ There is no order, but Renfe said it would buy 30 trains tritensión fixed width (300 km/h) and 10 variable-width (250 km/h) in 2017. Currently there are no tender or budget for it.
From Talgo and ADIF is expected to be certified to 330 km/h (363 km/h maintained with a slope of 5 mm) along this year.
..................................
No hay ningún pedido, aunque Renfe afirmó que compraría 30 trenes tritensión de ancho fijo y 10 de ancho variable para 2017. De momento no hay licitación ni presupuestos para ello.
Desde Talgo y Adif se espera que esté certificado para 330 km/h (363 km/h mantenidos con una pendiente de 5 mm) a lo largo de este año.


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## AlexNL

It's good to see that the AVRIL is still being worked on, as I haven't heard much about the train ever since being on display during InnoTrans 2012. A shame, because at that time I was really impressed with the train: it felt very spacious (despite 2+3 seating) and the materials used by Talgo felt of top-notch quality.

You indicate that the trains will be tricurrent, I am assuming this means 25 kV ~, 3 kV = and 1,5 kV =? If this is true, this would mean that the AVRIL will be capable of operating on the entire Spanish and French high speed and classical UIC gauge networks. Could we maybe one day see the AVRIL working in the Renfe-SNCF cross-border high speed services?


----------



## MarcVD

AlexNL said:


> it felt very spacious (despite 2+3 seating)


The advantage of the very short cars used by the Talgo architecture : they can be wider...



AlexNL said:


> You indicate that the trains will be tricurrent, I am assuming this means 25 kV ~, 3 kV = and 1,5 kV =?


Brussels- Barcelona anyone ?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ In all information from Talgo talking about that can make wider cars within the gauge UIC to be shorter. The Talgo II (1950) had a width of 3.207 to gauge Renfe (greater than UIC) with a length of only 6.147 meters (not a typo). The measure now 13.14.
But one day I found on the web in Spanish of Liebherr a reference to a novel system for AVRIL G3. Here also spoken topic (in English): "Liebherr will develop and manufacture a car body positioning system for Avril. The system will centre the train actively on its roll axis, act as a damper, provide higher speeds and comfort, and enable the trains to gain a wider car body". To date in Talgo not name Liebherr at all.

The tritensión are for international services from the Mediterranean Corridor (Almería to Girona). We hope this are Valencia-Paris, although they could reach Brussels-Almería, but not believe.
.................................
En todas las informaciones de Talgo se habla de que pueden hacer coches más anchos dentro del gálibo UIC por ser más cortos. El Talgo II (1950) tenía un ancho de 3,207 para gálibo Renfe (mayor que el UIC) con una longitud de solo 6,147 metros (no es una errata). Los de ahora miden 13,14.
Pero un día encontré en la web en español de Liebherr este texto: "El sistema de posicionamiento de vagones de Liebherr centra el cuerpo del vagón activamente mediante su eje de balanceo en la posición central, actuando simultáneamente como amortiguador. No facilita solamente velocidades de marcha más rápidas, sino también aumenta el confort de conducción. Con esto, Talgo puede realizar en los trenes AVRIL 3 también un cuerpo del vagón más ancho."
Aquí también se habla del tema (en inglés). A fecha de hoy en Talgo no nombran a Liebherr para nada.
Los tritensión son para servicios internacionales desde el Corredor Mediterráneo (Almería hasta Gerona). Esperamos que sean Valencia-París, aunque podrían llegar hasta Bruselas-Almería, aunque no lo creemos.
Más información sobre el AVRIL G3 y el futuro G4 (en español): http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo_AVRIL


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-of-high-speed-lines-in-2015.html?channel=523
> 
> *Spain to open 800km of high-speed lines in 2015*
> Monday, February 09, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _SPAIN's infrastructure manager Adif will open new sections of high-speed line totalling 798km this year, extending the current passenger-dedicated network with lines radiating from Madrid towards the periphery of the Iberian Peninsula_
> 
> New lines that will open the northwest include Olmedo - Zamora - Sanabria (210km), Valladolid - Venta de Baños – León (163km) and the 50km Pajares Base Tunnel. To cut construction costs, Adif has installed standard-gauge single track on several sections of the first two lines, even though both have been designed and built to accommodate a double-track formation.
> 
> On the Pajares bypass, only one of the two tubes will open after 10 years of construction due to difficulties in controlling water ingress, and this will only be used by broad-gauge trains
> 
> ...


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ In the Spanish media speaks a thousand kilometers, but there are errors, plus they count as HS lines are not.

New HSR to 300 km/h; if not in service ERTMS: 200:

166.1 km Valladolid-León (83.9 km single track).
058.1 km Monforte del Cid-Murcia (15.6 km mixed gauge on existing track).
086.5 km Antequera-Granada (15.6 km new double track, 70.9 km new single track, 28.0 km of mixed gauge on existing track, and electrification of 144.5 km).
099.5 km Olmedo-Zamora (68.7 km single track).
091.5 km Palencia/Venta de Baños-Burgos (91.5 km single track). It is not clear which end in 2015.
054.6 km Pajares tunnel (single tube, 200 km/h, with Iberian gauge and ASFA until 2016) (46.2 km single track). It is not clear which end in 2015.
Total: 556.3 km

In 2015 only open until Zamora, there is no doubt that will not open until Sanabria, although it is under construction. It is an error that appears in various media, so the source can be Fomento. If anyone has any questions just have to know that the widths changer has been awarded in Zamora.
Is being advertised Venta de Baños-Burgos 2015, but certain problems in the tunnel Estépar make us believe that will not open until 2016.
Sevilla-Cádiz is the duplication of conventional Iberian gauge to 160/200 km / h. Has over 10 years of work and just missing by doubling 023.8 km Utrera-Las Cabezas de San Juan. Trains will remain Alvia variable width and gain time on 2015/2014 will be 11 minutes (1 hour 6 minutes from the start of construction).
The same happens in the Atlantic Axis, except that they are only 093.9 km (not 156) Santiago-Vigo because Santiago-Coruña that opened in 2011.
Finally, Extremadura include seems me simple propaganda. 160.0 km Plasencia-Badajoz (new only way to 200 km/h, with Iberian gauge, not electrified). Nor do we believe that is in 2015.

Regrettably, I find myself unable to translate this, so I hope that is well understood. Are the times we had before starting the work, the end times (if end) and average speed.

Madrid-León: de 2 h 41 m a 1 h 45 m (197 km/h). Junio
Madrid-Palencia: de 1 h 36 m a 1 h 15 m (185 km/h). Junio
Madrid-Oviedo (sin pasar por León y con la variante de Pajares): de 4 h 40 m a 3 h 15 m (138 km/h) (3 h 55 m sin pasar por León y sin variante). Marzo (sin Variante de Pajares)
León-Oviedo: de 1 h 57 m a 1 h 5 m (97 km/h). (Parece que será muy difícil en 2015: filtraciones en el túnel y deslizamientos en Campomanes)
Madrid-Murcia: de 4 h 9 m a 2 h 25 m (218 km/h). Julio
Madrid-Granada: de 4 h 25 m a 2 h 50 m (198 km/h). Junio (Parece que será en 2016) 
Sevilla-Granada: de 3 h 10 m a 1 h 30 m (229 km/h). Junio (Parece que será en 2016)
Málaga-Granada: de 2 h 10 m (con transbordo) a 50 m (más de 220 km/h; si se termina la conexión Málaga 2 en el triángulo de Antequera)
Madrid-Zamora: de 1 h 55 m a 1 h 25 m (164 km/h). Mayo
Madrid-Burgos: de 2 h 18 m a 1 h 45 m (174 km/h). Octubre (Parece que será imposible en 2015 por el túnel de Estépar) 
Coruña-Vigo: de 2 h 35 m a 1 h 57 m (en 2011) y 1 h 10 m en 2015 (133 km/h)
Santiago-Vigo: de 1 h 35 m a de 1 h 21 m (ahora) y 44 m en 2015 (128 km/h)
Sevilla-Cádiz: de 2 h 24 m a 1 h 29 m (ahora) y 1 h 18 m en 2015 (118 km/h), a pesar de que en principio se anunciaba un mejor tiempo de 59 m (156 km/h) y en octubre se anunció 1 h 16 m. Serán 53 m, a una media de 173 km/h, cuando se instale el ERTMS desde Utrera (máxima de 220 km/h) y sin paradas.
Castellón-Alicante: de 2 h 25 m a 1 h 30 m. (Parece que será en 2016)
Castellón-Murcia: de 4 h 13 m a 1 h 40 m. (Directo, sin pasar por Alicante, parece que será en 2016)
Valencia-Murcia: de 3 h 8 m a 1 h 20 m. (Parece que será en 2016)
Madrid-Castellón: de 2 h 57 m a 2 h 25 m (199 km/h)
Barcelona-Valencia: de 2 h 48 m a 2 h 20 m (153 km/h)
Madrid-Badajoz: de 5 h 35 m a 4 h 18 m (con parada en Mérida), o, según anunció Adif (sin parada en Mérida): 3 h 35 m. Se esperan 3 servicios diarios. (Según el Delegado del Gobierno en 2015 solo estará el tramo Badajoz-Mérida) 
Palencia-Santander: de 2 h 42 m a 2 h 15 m (96 km/h)
Madrid-Salamanca: de 2 h 20 m a 1 h 24 m (164 km/h). Se esperan 7 servicios diarios para Semana Santa con trenes S-121 que cambiarán de ancho en Medina.


----------



## Silly_Walks

When I was in Sevilla last year, I really could have used the direct high speed line to Málaga, but I heard construction had stopped, and in fact they had removed all the works done up to that point.

I was very surprised to read that. Does anyone know if this is true?


----------



## alserrod

You could use anyway... there are Malaga-Cordoba-Sevilla high speed trains.

What it is under construction is a diagonal Sevilla-Antequera (junction with Malaga-Cordoba)-Granada.

To my best knowledge, Antequera-Granada goes on but Malaga-Sevilla will require a round via Cordoba for a while


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## Silly_Walks

alserrod said:


> You could use anyway... there are Malaga-Cordoba-Sevilla high speed trains.


I know, but that's a very long detour. I had expected a direct (semi-) high speed train.


----------



## 437.001

Gusiluz said:


> *Regrettably, I find myself unable to translate this, so I hope that is well understood*. Are the times we had before starting the work, the end times (if end) and average speed.






Gusiluz said:


> Madrid-León: from 2 h 41 m to 1 h 45 m (197 km/h). June.
> 
> Madrid-Palencia: from 1 h 36 m to 1 h 15 m (185 km/h). June
> 
> Madrid-Oviedo (without calling at León and with the Pajares tunnel): from 4 h 40 m to 3 h 15 m (138 km/h) (3 h 55 m without calling at León and without the Pajares tunnel). March (without Pajares tunnel)
> 
> León-Oviedo: from 1 h 57 m to 1 h 5 m (97 km/h). (looks like it will be very difficult to open in 2015: leaks in the Pajares tunnel and a serious landslip in Campomanes -between the Pajares tunnel and Oviedo)
> 
> Madrid-Murcia: from 4 h 9 m to 2 h 25 m (218 km/h). July
> 
> Madrid-Granada: from 4 h 25 m to 2 h 50 m (198 km/h). June (looks like it will open in 2016)
> 
> Seville-Granada: from 3 h 10 m to 1 h 30 m (229 km/h). June (looks like it will open in 2016)
> 
> Málaga-Granada: from 2 h 10 m (changing at Antequera-Santa Ana) to 50 m (more than 220 km/h; if the chord at the Antequera triangle to allow direct trains running from Malaga to Granada is finished)
> 
> Madrid-Zamora: from 1 h 55 m to 1 h 25 m (164 km/h). May
> 
> Madrid-Burgos: from 2 h 18 m to 1 h 45 m (174 km/h). October (looks like it will be impossible to finish in 2015 because of the delay in the works of the Estépar tunnel)
> 
> Corunna-Vigo: from 2 h 35 m to 1 h 57 m (in 2011) and 1 h 10 m in 2015 (133 km/h)
> 
> Santiago-Vigo: from 1 h 35 m to 1 h 21 m (now) and 44 m in 2015 (128 km/h)
> 
> Seville-Cadiz: from 2 h 24 m to 1 h 29 m (now) and 1 h 18 m in 2015 (118 km/h), despite in the beginning it was announced a best travel time of 59 m (156 km/h) and in october it was announced 1 h 16 m. It will be 53 m, at an average speed of 173 km/h, when ERTMS will be installed from Utrera (top speed of 220 km/h), and non-stop.
> 
> Castellón-Alicante: from 2 h 25 m to 1 h 30 m. (looks like it will be in 2016)
> 
> Castellón-Murcia: from 4 h 13 m to 1 h 40 m. (direct, without calling at Alicante, looks like it will be in 2016)
> 
> Valencia-Murcia: from 3 h 8 m to 1 h 20 m. (looks like it will be in 2016)
> 
> Madrid-Castellón: from 2 h 57 m to 2 h 25 m (199 km/h)
> 
> Barcelona-Valencia: from 2 h 48 m to 2 h 20 m (153 km/h)
> 
> Madrid-Badajoz: from 5 h 35 m to 4 h 18 m (calling at Mérida), or, according to what Adif announced (without calling at Mérida): 3 h 35 m. 3 daily services are expected. (According to the Government Delegate in Extremadura only the section Badajoz-Mérida will be ready)
> 
> Palencia-Santander: from 2 h 42 m to 2 h 15 m (96 km/h) [_note by 437.001: this is not high-speed, just an upgrade on the classic line_]
> 
> Madrid-Salamanca: from 2 h 20 m to 1 h 24 m (164 km/h). 7 daily services are expected for Easter, with class S-121 trains that will change gauge at Medina del Campo.


^^
Here you have it.



Silly_Walks said:


> When I was in Sevilla last year, I really could have used the direct high speed line to Málaga, but I heard construction had stopped, and in fact they had removed all the works done up to that point.
> 
> I was very surprised to read that. Does anyone know if this is true?


It is true. Construction between Seville (actually Marchena, between Seville and Marchena works didn't even start) and Antequera is totally halted, and there are no plans to carry on the works in the short or mid term.

Instead, a by-pass will be built at Almodóvar, to allow fast services to run from Seville to Malaga skipping Cordova and its reversal. 



alserrod said:


> You could use anyway... there are Malaga-Cordoba-Sevilla high speed trains.
> 
> What it is under construction is a diagonal Sevilla-Antequera (junction with Malaga-Cordoba)-Granada.
> 
> *To my best knowledge, Antequera-Granada goes on but Malaga-Sevilla will require a round via Cordoba for a while*


Maybe not just a while, only that now they have these plans for the Almodóvar by-pass chord...



Silly_Walks said:


> I know, but that's a very long detour. I had expected a direct (semi-) high speed train.


It's not a very long detour via Cordova, and it's a high speed train anyway.


----------



## I(L)WTC

This is a huge system for a small population = economic losses


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## Silly_Walks

437.001 said:


> It's not a very long detour via Cordova, and it's a high speed train anyway.


The difference in distance is about 90 km (when drawing straight lines on maps). 90 km is a lot, even if at high speed. Plus then you have the reversal.

All in all it took too long for me 


The by-pass should make it a lot better. Is there any idea when that will be built?


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## Suburbanist

Some major improvements are coming online, Murcia will be much more accessible after these works.

Are there any long-term project to build a high-speed rail link to La Línea and maybe an international connection to Gibraltar?


----------



## 437.001

^^
Not exactly.

The classic line from Bobadilla (just next to Antequera-Santa Ana) to Algeciras (across the bay from Gibraltar and La Linea) is being upgraded.

As for La Línea, it is one of the biggest Spanish cities without a rail connection. The extension to Marbella, Estepona and San Roque-La Linea of the Malaga to Fuengirola line(built in the 19th century as a metric-gauge line with the original purpose or reaching Gibraltar), which would not only serve La Línea, but also three other important towns (Mijas, pop. 80,000; Marbella, pop. 150,000; Estepona, pop. 70,000) that have had railway, has been a constant demand for decades, yet it never seemss to fully materialize beyond the studies drawer. Yet the roads and motorways are more and more crowded... 

That would be a commuter rail line, though, not a HSL. :dunno:

As for a Gibraltar rail connection, having the train at La Línea would be quite an improvement for them, too, but any connection to Gibraltar would mean not only dealing with the UK (or more exactly the Gibraltar government), which might have other priorities (and understandably so), but also having to face the Gibraltar airport problem if the goal was to reach the city centre. A double-ended station under the frontier could do, perhaps, with one entrance in Spain and the other in the UK). 

But anyway, that's far from happening anytime soon.


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## Sunfuns

Just for fun I looked up in Google approximately how long it would take to drive between these locations (in red, without traffic). None of these are really "flying" destinations. All in all big improvement. Interestingly enough particularly on the coastal line despite it not being a full bore HS connection. 



> Originally Posted by *Gusiluz*
> _Madrid-León: from 2 h 41 m to 1 h 45 m (197 km/h). June. (3 h 6 m)
> 
> Madrid-Palencia: from 1 h 36 m to 1 h 15 m (185 km/h). June (2 h 25 m)
> 
> Madrid-Oviedo (without calling at León and with the Pajares tunnel): from 4 h 40 m to 3 h 15 m (138 km/h) (3 h 55 m without calling at León and without the Pajares tunnel). March (without Pajares tunnel) (3 h 59 m)
> 
> León-Oviedo: from 1 h 57 m to 1 h 5 m (97 km/h). (looks like it will be very difficult to open in 2015: leaks in the Pajares tunnel and a serious landslip in Campomanes -between the Pajares tunnel and Oviedo) (1 h 19 m)
> 
> Madrid-Murcia: from 4 h 9 m to 2 h 25 m (218 km/h). July (3 h 24 m)
> 
> Madrid-Granada: from 4 h 25 m to 2 h 50 m (198 km/h). June (looks like it will open in 2016) (3 h 50 m)
> 
> Seville-Granada: from 3 h 10 m to 1 h 30 m (229 km/h). June (looks like it will open in 2016) (2 h 45 m) This looks excellent even without a more direct route so money is probably better spent elsewhere
> 
> Málaga-Granada: from 2 h 10 m (changing at Antequera-Santa Ana) to 50 m (more than 220 km/h; if the chord at the Antequera triangle to allow direct trains running from Malaga to Granada is finished) (1 h 26 m)
> 
> Madrid-Zamora: from 1 h 55 m to 1 h 25 m (164 km/h). May (2 h 24 m)
> 
> Madrid-Burgos: from 2 h 18 m to 1 h 45 m (174 km/h). October (looks like it will be impossible to finish in 2015 because of the delay in the works of the Estépar tunnel) (2 h 14 m) HSR takes a cirtuicous route here
> 
> Corunna-Vigo: from 2 h 35 m to 1 h 57 m (in 2011) and 1 h 10 m in 2015 (133 km/h) (1 h 30 m)
> 
> Santiago-Vigo: from 1 h 35 m to 1 h 21 m (now) and 44 m in 2015 (128 km/h) (1 h)
> 
> Seville-Cadiz: from 2 h 24 m to 1 h 29 m (now) and 1 h 18 m in 2015 (118 km/h), despite in the beginning it was announced a best travel time of 59 m (156 km/h) and in october it was announced 1 h 16 m. It will be 53 m, at an average speed of 173 km/h, when ERTMS will be installed from Utrera (top speed of 220 km/h), and non-stop. (1 h 16 m)
> 
> Castellón-Alicante: from 2 h 25 m to 1 h 30 m. (looks like it will be in 2016) (2 h 22 m)
> 
> Castellón-Murcia: from 4 h 13 m to 1 h 40 m. (direct, without calling at Alicante, looks like it will be in 2016) (2 h 53 m)
> 
> Valencia-Murcia: from 3 h 8 m to 1 h 20 m. (looks like it will be in 2016) (2 h 13 m)
> 
> Madrid-Castellón: from 2 h 57 m to 2 h 25 m (199 km/h) (3 h 43 m)
> 
> Barcelona-Valencia: from 2 h 48 m to 2 h 20 m (153 km/h) (3 h 10 m)
> 
> Madrid-Badajoz: from 5 h 35 m to 4 h 18 m (calling at Mérida), or, according to what Adif announced (without calling at Mérida): 3 h 35 m. 3 daily services are expected. (According to the Government Delegate in Extremadura only the section Badajoz-Mérida will be ready)  (3 h 30 m)
> 
> Palencia-Santander: from 2 h 42 m to 2 h 15 m (96 km/h) [note by 437.001: this is not high-speed, just an upgrade on the classic line] (1 h 46 m)
> 
> Madrid-Salamanca: from 2 h 20 m to 1 h 24 m (164 km/h). 7 daily services are expected for Easter, with class S-121 trains that will change gauge at Medina del Campo._ (2 h 2 m)


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Some major improvements are coming online, Murcia will be much more accessible after these works.
> 
> Are there any long-term project to build a high-speed rail link to La Línea and maybe an international connection to Gibraltar?


IMHO, never...

HSL are long lines related point to point with some calls in the middle. There is some chats opened about new HSL in the surroundings of big cities and answer is always... let's make a commuter line.

This is, maybe one day we will have a full HSL to Algeciras. Let's suppose it will call at La Linea (it is not so often to have two consecutives calls but let's suppose it). What it is sure is that it will not arrive to La Linea downtown but to the northern area, and barely impossible to arrive to Gibraltar.

It will require:

- Non-Schengen controls in ALL stations (the same that you have in Belgium and France to go to London but to go to Gibraltar... and Gibraltar doesn't move so many passengers)
- A long tube under La Linea, quite difficult to explain having a station in the north and not so many population


Maaaaaybe, a tramway, commuter or so (anything to shuttle) would be cool and easier to build. Enough to approach to the border but I will never think in anything else.


----------



## gincan

alserrod said:


> No.
> 
> It is suppossed that (oneeee day...), Almeria will link to Murcia and therefore, with the rest of network.


There is not even enough monnies to finish what is already under construction, forget about lines that are not even started.

Between Lorca and Almeria they need to build 150 km of completely new railway, the only thing built so far is a 7,5 km long tunnel in the middle of nowhere and it is probably never going to be connected to any railway. Only 180 million euros wasted :crazy:

But hey, it's not like it is the first time time this happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engaña_Tunnel


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> There is not even enough monnies to finish what is already under construction, forget about lines that are not even started.


Well... doing things slowly doesn't mean not doing them at all, does it?



gincan said:


> Between Lorca and Almeria they need to build 150 km of completely new railway, the only thing built so far is a 7,5 km long tunnel in the middle of nowhere and it is probably never going to be connected to any railway. Only 180 million euros wasted :crazy:
> 
> But hey, it's not like it is the first time time this happened.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engaña_Tunnel


It's not just the tunnel, there are also some more kilometers built (not a lot, that's clear), and a new section has just seen its construction authorized.

That section between Pulpí and Almeria _must be_ built.
It has nothing to do with the Engaña tunnel line, these are two completely different situations.

The Santander-Mediterráneo line, with its unfinished Engaña tunnel, was a secondary line, and it would have been so in any case, since the Madrid-Santander main line runs through Palencia, not Burgos, and had it been finished, things wouldn't have changed at all for the Madrid-Santander services or for freight.

Pulpí-Almeria is quite a different animal, since it covers a section that was never built on the Mediterranean coast.
There is no railway between the Region of Murcia and Andalusia since 1985, and when the Almendricos-Guadix line was closed (whose closure was at the very least debatable, this I acknowledge), the line was in a very bad state.

But Pulpí-Almeria has a different approach, since it connects not with Guadix which is a minor city in the Granada province, but with Almeria city itself, something which may attract many more new passengers, and which the old Almendricos-Guadix line failed to do.


----------



## 437.001

*UPDATE | Pajares tunnel new line (21/Jun/2015).*

Images taken near La Robla (Leon province), at the southern end of the Pajares new line between La Robla and Pola de Lena.

I translate from Spanish.



jotaerre said:


>






RDaneel said:


> Rail stock on a train:
> 
> DSCN0976 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> The future junction, looking towards Leon:
> 
> 
> DSCN0979 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> A crossing and advancint point, with its 4 tracks:
> 
> 
> DSCN0991 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Points ready to be installed:
> 
> 
> DSCN0993 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Southern tunnel portal of the Alba tunnel. Here the line shrinks to single-track:
> 
> 
> DSCN0999 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

*UPDATE | Valladolid-Venta de Baños junction-Palencia-Leon HSL (21/Jun/2015).*

Images taken at Vilecha, just some 3 km south of Leon city.



RDaneel said:


> DSCN1000 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> From the point at the end the line shrinks to single-track. Image taken looking towards Palencia:
> 
> 
> DSCN1015 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> The Leon gauge-changer, which will be used for Alvia trains to continue towards Oviedo-Gijon, Ponferrada or Vigo-Corunna via Ponferrada-Monforte.
> The city of Leon is in hindsight:
> 
> 
> DSCN1008 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

*UPDATE | Valladolid-Venta de Baños junction-Palencia-Leon HSL (28/Jun/2015).*

Images taken between Palanquinos and Leon city:



RDaneel said:


> I started out at Palanquinos station, from then I moved towards Leon.
> 
> A milepost:
> 
> 
> DSCN1029 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Leon:
> 
> 
> DSCN1028 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Palencia:
> 
> 
> DSCN1030 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Class 730 on a test run (bad angle):
> 
> 
> DSCN1035 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> River Esla viaduct:
> 
> 
> DSCN1041 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1040 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> The HSL seen from afar:
> 
> 
> DSCN1048 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Looking towards Leon:
> 
> 
> DSCN1052 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Torneros viaduct:
> 
> 
> DSCN1063 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1066 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1068 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1069 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Green aspect... but no sign of life...
> 
> 
> DSCN1082 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> ...so I was just leaving, when Murphy's Law happened:
> 
> 
> DSCN1083 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> But I could catch it at the comeback, image taken looking towards Leon:
> 
> 
> DSCN1089 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Images taken looking towards Palencia:
> 
> 
> DSCN1090 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1091 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

*UPDATE | Valladolid-Venta de Baños junction-Palencia-Leon HSL (28/Jun/2015).*

Images taken near Villada (Palencia province), at the maintenance base and around:



jotaerre said:


>





RDaneel said:


> DSCN1098 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1099 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1105 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1111 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> ERTMS signalling:
> 
> 
> DSCN1117 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1118 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1119 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> More images:
> 
> 
> DSCN1127 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1138 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1139 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1140 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1141 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1147 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr





Fruela said:


> DSCN1107 by danlx86, en Flickr


----------



## 437.001

*UPDATE | Valladolid-Venta de Baños junction-Palencia-Leon HSL (29/Jun/2015).*

More images taken between Vilecha and Torneros, just south of Leon city:



RDaneel said:


> Rail:
> 
> 
> DSCN1166 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> At Torneros:
> 
> 
> DSCN1156 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1164 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1171 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1178 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> Note the heat (and the class 730 on another test run, of course):
> 
> 
> DSCN1188 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1189 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1191 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1193 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1195 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> Later, at the gauge-changer at Vilecha:
> 
> 
> DSCN1201 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1202 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1203 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr
> 
> 
> DSCN1204 by Jose Antonio, en Flickr


----------



## Sunfuns

I've heard that opening is expected in September. Is that still accurate?


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I've heard that opening is expected in September. Is that still accurate?


So it seems.


----------



## Suburbanist

How much is actually saved by not laying rails, ballast and tracks and aerial structures on the second track? Are there much savings compared to building 2-tracks right now? Tunnels, bridges, subbase, are all prepared for 2 tracks already.


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> Images taken near La Robla (Leon province), at the southern end of the Pajares new line between La Robla and Pola de Lena.
> 
> I translate from Spanish.


So they are installing convertible sleepers (1435 _or_ 1668), not dual gauge sleepers (1435 _and_ 1668). Why? Maybe they think to lay the second track in the future in standard gauge, so to have two parallel single track lines od different gauges?

Dual gauge sleepers can be used also with one gauge only, just not laying the third rail, so I don't even understand the use of convertible sleepers.


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> How much is actually saved by not laying rails, ballast and tracks and aerial structures on the second track? Are there much savings compared to building 2-tracks right now? Tunnels, bridges, subbase, are all prepared for 2 tracks already.


I don't know, but rails, OHLE and its maintenance have a cost, of course.
The maintenance of superstructure is more expensive than the maintenance of infrastructure.



Coccodrillo said:


> So they are installing convertible sleepers (1435 _or_ 1668), not dual gauge sleepers (1435 _and_ 1668). Why? Maybe they think to lay the second track in the future in standard gauge, so to have two parallel single track lines od different gauges?
> 
> Dual gauge sleepers can be used also with one gauge only, just not laying the third rail, so I don't even understand the use of convertible sleepers.


With convertible sleepers you leave open the possibility of a total gauge change. For now, only the section Albacete-Almansa has undergone a gauge change, the next section that would see such an operation would probably be Xàtiva-La Font de la Figuera (all of it bar the old cercanías line), or San Isidro/Albatera/Catral-Murcia (most likely just a part of it).

Dual gauge sleepers don't imply such a thing.

For the time being, standard gauge will end at Leon.


----------



## 437.001

:siren: *News!* 

Planning started for a new chord between the Madrid-Seville HSL and the Cordoba-Malaga HSL.
This chord would allow direct Sevilla-Malaga and Seville-Granada services, by-passing Cordoba in case it was needed.

This is a huge blow to the now-halted Seville-Antequera HSL. Its chances of becoming something other than a green route or a road are decreasing.

Source: a press release by the Ministry.


----------



## Suburbanist

437.001 said:


> :siren: *News!*
> 
> Planning started for a new chord between the Madrid-Seville HSL and the Cordoba-Malaga HSL.
> This chord would allow direct Sevilla-Malaga and Seville-Granada services, by-passing Cordoba in case it was needed.
> 
> This is a huge blow to the now-halted Seville-Antequera HSL. Its chances of becoming something other than a green route or a road are decreasing.
> 
> Source: a press release by the Ministry.


This is a pity, they need to build a Seville-Antaquera-Granada-Almería HSL.


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> This is a pity, they need to build a Seville-Antaquera-Granada-Almería HSL.


Do we, really? 

Antequera-Granada is being built, so no worries about that.

Granada-Almeria would be tremendously expensive and would involve VERY long tunnels. The classic line will be used instead, and probably upgraded where possible (it's very bendy in parts). There is also the possibility of electrifying the section between Huéneja and Granada, which currently isn't. 
The section Huéneja-Almeria is electrified, although the electrification hasn't been used for years now, so it should be renewed.

As for Seville-Antequera... it's not very likely that the works will carry on.
Anyway, by skipping that section, high-speed trains would serve Antequera anyway, plus Puente Genil and optionally Cordoba. That means more passengers, which are needed on a line that doesn't runs through Madrid.


----------



## Xoser_barcelona

Suburbanist said:


> This is a pity, they need to build a Seville-Antaquera-Granada-Almería HSL.


Ouwehoerekoekeloere... but as it is pro train...thou areth forgiven.


----------



## krisu99

The half-built (approx. 77km so far, out of 129km in total) dedicated High Speed Line Sevilla - Antequera - (Granada) is unfortunately rather antieconomic. As opposed to most other long distance HSL's in Spain it has been wanted and fincanced by the regional government of Andalucia (plus a looot of money paid by EU of course), instead of the central Transport Ministry in Madrid. 

I could define it a scandal? 

The now planned replacement, a short curve of only 7km to allow trains over the two existing HSL from Sevilla to Antequera, is a better choice, I think we can agree on that. Why hasn't this easy link been built before? 
According to this article ( http://railpressnews.blogspot.co.at/2014/10/un-bypass-en-almodovar-del-rio-unira.html ), the new new link would cost 27,5 milion euro, instead of a final 1300 million euro (280 million already spent) of the direct link half built.

Nowadays, trains from Sevilla to Malaga have to travel on a very slow old route or on the HSL until Cordoba, reverse there, and travel back the line until the Malaga branch, resulting in a waste of time which can be easily avoided thanks to the new link. The resulting travel times will be only a few minutes longer than along the hypothetical direct HSL.

On this map one can understand the situation. In pink color the section of line that has been built so far an which will remain useless as it looks like. Red is U/C, Green means "in service":
http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu...68832370267978,-6.263682242187542)&mt=terrain


Interestingly, the platform of the half-built line could be used as a replacement for the proposed Antequera High-Speed Railway testing facility (A dedicated HSL in form of a closed ring, some dozen km long), but politicians are still battling on that issue...
Also interestingly, the new short curve will be built by ADIF (="Madrid"), and not by the Region of Andalucia. It should be ready in 2017, if works start on time soon...

EDIT: As opposed to what has been reported by newspapers in October 2014 (linked above), the final alignment is not fixed yet. Now two (even more economic) alternatives of 1,9km and 5,5km of length are finally being studied: 
For plans view the PDF's "Alternativa A" and "Alternativa B":
http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CAS...INFORMACION/ESTYPRYTRM/ELAC_MADSEVMAL/DOC.htm

Speed is only 100km/h, no flyovers at the junctions, one single track: The golden times of generous HSL planning seem to be over...

Compare those minimalistic specs with the generous unfinished junction of the Sevilla direct HSL into Cordoba - Malaga, full of flyovers and extra tunnels (maybe 220km/h?):
http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu...096997080604915,-4.731094833168072)&mt=hybrid


----------



## Sunfuns

Money saved here ought to be spent on finishing Murcia-Almeria line. That would be useful for a lot more people than this one.


----------



## 437.001

Xoser_barcelona said:


> Ouwehoerekoekeloere... but as it is pro train...thou areth forgiven.


"Ouwehoerekoekeloere"... :hmm:



krisu99 said:


> The half-built (approx. 77km so far, out of 129km in total) dedicated High Speed Line Sevilla - Antequera - (Granada) is unfortunately rather antieconomic. As opposed to most other long distance HSL's in Spain it has been wanted and financed by the regional government of Andalucia (plus a looot of money paid by EU of course), instead of the central Transport Ministry in Madrid.
> 
> I could define it a scandal?


No, rather a planning disaster. At least for now. I'm not aware of any corruption case linked to it yet.



krisu99 said:


> The now planned replacement, a short curve of only 7km to allow trains over the two existing HSL from Sevilla to Antequera, is a better choice, I think we can agree on that. Why hasn't this easy link been built before?


Because trains call at Cordoba. There is some debate on wether it is _that_ much needed anyway.



krisu99 said:


> Nowadays, trains from Sevilla to Malaga have to travel on a very slow old route or on the HSL until Cordoba, reverse there, and travel back the line until the Malaga branch, resulting in a waste of time which can be easily avoided thanks to the new link. The resulting travel times will be only a few minutes longer than along the hypothetical direct HSL.


And only a few minutes shorter than by calling at Cordoba.
Some believe that even that chord is not all that necessary yet.



krisu99 said:


> Speed is only 100km/h, no flyovers at the junctions, one single track: The golden times of generous HSL planning seem to be over...


Not quite. The core of the network is built by now. 
Some addition could come later, but that would be an extra anyway, even if it were built for speeds up to 300 km/h.



Sunfuns said:


> Money saved here ought to be spent on finishing Murcia-Almeria line. That would be useful for a lot more people than this one.


I'm afraid not. It was not Adif who was building the Seville-Antequera HSL, but the Andalusia regional government, so there is no way they are going to put any money on the Murcia-Almeria line, firstly because it's Adif the one to build it, and then because the Andalusian regional government has other issues to adress at the moment.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> I'm afraid not. It was not Adif who was building the Seville-Antequera HSL, but the Andalusia regional government, so there is no way they are going to put any money on the Murcia-Almeria line, firstly because it's Adif the one to build it, and then because the Andalusian regional government has other issues to adress at the moment.


I know, but it would be a shame if that stretch was never built. hno:


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I know, but it would be a shame if that stretch was never built. hno:


It will, don't you worry, another section of Lorca-Almeria is under planning, soon will start works.

It's just that right now we simply have too many things to do and not a lot of money, so we have to prioritize.


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> It will, don't you worry, another section of Lorca-Almeria is under planning, soon will start works.


Right now, chances are that next year, neo-communist party Podemos will govern Spain, with them in power, we can forget any major investment in railways and this line would be placed in the freezer indefinitely. And even the guys running PSOE are against investing in railways, so I can't see how this line has any chance unless PP somehow magically manage to turn around the boat and gain back the 15% of voters the have lost.

My bet is the new government in 2016 will scrap this line and re-route the Mediterranean freight axis over Alcázar de San Juan which would be much cheaper. To build what is left to finnish of this line would cost well in excess of a billion euros, that money will be spent on other lines.


----------



## Robi_damian

gincan said:


> Right now, chances are that next year, neo-communist party Podemos will govern Spain, with them in power, we can forget any major investment in railways and this line would be placed in the freezer indefinitely. And even the guys running PSOE are against investing in railways, so I can't see how this line has any chance unless PP somehow magically manage to turn around the boat and gain back the 15% of voters the have lost.
> 
> My bet is the new government in 2016 will scrap this line and re-route the Mediterranean freight axis over Alcázar de San Juan which would be much cheaper. To build what is left to finnish of this line would cost well in excess of a billion euros, that money will be spent on other lines.


To be fair, Spain has overinvested in HSR. The lines from Madrid to Seville/Malaga, Valencia/Alicante, Barcelona and the common segment for the NW to Valladolid are all sound investments, but lines to demographic sinkholes like Asturias or Galicia are IMHO completely over the top...

Investments should IMO cover improvements in conventional lines to allow faster speeds in Alvia trains that switch gauges and better regional and cercanias services, plus the completion of existing works (e.g. a proper train station in Valencia). And of course, I presume even a socialist government would finish most of the works that have already started, it would be even more insane economically not to...


----------



## gincan

Robi_damian said:


> To be fair, Spain has overinvested in HSR. The lines from Madrid to Seville/Malaga, Valencia/Alicante, Barcelona and the common segment for the NW to Valladolid are all sound investments, but lines to demographic sinkholes like Asturias or Galicia are IMHO completely over the top...
> 
> Investments should IMO cover improvements in conventional lines to allow faster speeds in Alvia trains that switch gauges and better regional and cercanias services, plus the completion of existing works (e.g. a proper train station in Valencia). And of course, I presume even a socialist government would finish most of the works that have already started, it would be even more insane economically not to...


The problem is that regionalism is choking all common sense when it comes to sound government planning, infrastructure to nowhere is a Spanish national sport. Unfortunately this means that investments don't go where they make the biggest impact on a financial sense but instead on an emotional sense.

The HSR to Almeria is a totally ridiculous investment from a financial sense and is completely driven by emotional sense. Almeria has no large middle class to fuel passenger transport and the upper class is non-existent, most of the population is very poor or below the poverty line, they will never use the train because it is to expensive even with a subsidized tariff. 

The region has no large industrial sector that can benefit from goods transports on the new railway other than tomatoes and cucumbers, the agricultural-industry in Almeria simply does not generate enough revenue for the state to justify spending billions of euros on a railway. Almeria has no large port that can benefit from a rail connection to improve throughput of goods. Almeria has no large tourist industry that can benefit from a rail connection to international airports in other parts of Spain or connections to France and beyond.

The last straw argument is that the new railway somehow magically will make the region more attractive to establish new industries which will generate new jobs, this is a completely ridiculous argument promoted by local politicians living in Alice wonderland.


----------



## arctic_carlos

The decision to build dedicated HSR to almost every Spanish province is, of course, a political one. Nevertheless, it should be said that upgrading old lines can sometimes be as expensive as building new ones from scratch.

There have been mistakes in planning for sure. For instance, construction of the soon to be opened HSL between Valladolid and León cannot be justified (except for the initial section between Valladolid and Venta de Baños junction, shared with the HSL Valladolid - Burgos, that in the future will be extended to the Basque Country) when an upgrade of the classic line (already double-tracked) was not difficult given the flat terrain of the region. 

In contrast, construction of HSR between León and Asturias (Pajares base tunnel) makes sense as sooner or later that line would have had to be built from scratch in order to have a decent railway line between Asturias and the rest of Spain. And I can imagine the difference of building the long base tunnel and its connecting lines as classic railway instead of as HSR wouldn't have been less expensive -hardly anything from the current classic line can be upgraded.

The same can be said with regards to the HSL to Galicia, where an upgrade of the classic line would have also entailed building long sections from scratch. However, let's not forget that in several corridors the upgrade has indeed been chosen instead of building a completely new line. That's the case of Tarragona - Valencia, Sevilla - Cádiz or A Coruña - Vigo. Common sense says that in the future the same decision will be followed in other lines, such as Zaragoza - Logroño / Pamplona, Sevilla - Huelva or Palencia - Santander.

One of the main problems, in my opinion, is that some important corridors were given less priority and now there are no funds to construct them. I'm thinking of Burgos - Vitoria (part of Madrid - Bilbao and Madrid - Hendaye corridors) and Valencia - Castellón (including both the new through station and the new urban tunnel in Valencia), where a dedicated HSL is far more necessary than in other parts of the country where upgrading the old line was feasible (namely Venta de Baños junction - León).


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> Right now, chances are that next year, neo-communist party Podemos will govern Spain, with them in power, we can forget any major investment in railways and this line would be placed in the freezer indefinitely. And even the guys running PSOE are against investing in railways, so I can't see how this line has any chance unless PP somehow magically manage to turn around the boat and gain back the 15% of voters the have lost.


Other threads might be better suited to foreseeing the future without a crystal ball if politics were to be mixed into the recipe. 



gincan said:


> My bet is the new government in 2016 will scrap this line and re-route the Mediterranean freight axis over Alcázar de San Juan which would be much cheaper. To build what is left to finnish of this line would cost well in excess of a billion euros, that money will be spent on other lines.


As it happens, that already is the case.
Freight in standard gauge to/from all of Andalusia but Almeria will be routed through Alcazar de San Juan, like always.

Pulpi-Almeria will be just for passengers and freight to/from Almeria, no one but the (usually misinformed) press is into that idea of routing freight via Granada-Guadix-Almeria, since that would be rather complicated as the line between Almeria and Granada is quite mountainous with lots of steep gradients, although it has to be said that it saw freight years ago.

Anyway, there are still years and not unlikely even more than a decade to go before seeing that Pulpi-Almeria line opening. But il will.



gincan said:


> The problem is that regionalism is choking all common sense when it comes to sound government planning, infrastructure to nowhere is a Spanish national sport. Unfortunately this means that investments don't go where they make the biggest impact on a financial sense but instead on an emotional sense.


Investments sometimes don't have any other choice but being allocated to some places where it apparently doesn't make sense at all to invest, in order to improve communications between neighbouring regions to these unpopulated areas which are not as much sinkholes as one would believe, but which have historically suffered from very bad rail communications. 

In other words, when it's needed to improve travel from A to B and to do so you must run through the shortest way, that might mean running through places like Nowhere-on-Earth or Rockbottomworldsend, so then you must invest there, and that counts as an investment in said places, which wouldn't receive such investments at all, were it not for their location in between A and B.


----------



## 437.001

Robi_damian said:


> To be fair, Spain has overinvested in HSR. The lines from Madrid to Seville/Malaga, Valencia/Alicante, Barcelona and the common segment for the NW to Valladolid are all sound investments, but lines to demographic sinkholes like Asturias or Galicia are IMHO completely over the top...


We'll see. 

arctic_carlos answers quite accurately to this statement, although not entirely, methinks, so I'll comment on that further down the post.



Robi_damian said:


> Investments should IMO cover improvements in conventional lines to allow faster speeds in Alvia trains that switch gauges and better regional and cercanias services, plus the completion of existing works (e.g. a proper train station in Valencia).


If you ask me, investments once we get rid of this burden of HSL's under construction should focus on gauge change, commuter rail and freight. 

With a slight accent on reopening a few old, long-closed lines (or massively upgrading some narrow gauge line in service) whose rebirth is now entirely justified, or building new lines to some populated areas which never had a railway. I hope you guess which ones I mean, none of them are pure HSR but could get to see Alvia services if the railway company saw fit.



Robi_damian said:


> And of course, I presume even a socialist government would finish most of the works that have already started, it would be even more insane economically not to...


You have a point here.



arctic_carlos said:


> The decision to build dedicated HSR to almost every Spanish province is, of course, a political one.


All infrastructure comes from a political decision in the end.



arctic_carlos said:


> Nevertheless, it should be said that upgrading old lines can sometimes be as expensive as building new ones from scratch.


True in certain cases, not all of them.



arctic_carlos said:


> There have been mistakes in planning for sure.


Right you are.



arctic_carlos said:


> For instance, construction of the soon to be opened HSL between Valladolid and León cannot be justified (except for the initial section between Valladolid and Venta de Baños junction, shared with the HSL Valladolid - Burgos, that in the future will be extended to the Basque Country) when an upgrade of the classic line (already double-tracked) was not difficult given the flat terrain of the region.


I would have built Valladolid-Venta de Baños and Burgos-Bilbao/Hendaye and progressively upgraded Venta de Baños-Burgos and Venta de Baños-Leon. 



arctic_carlos said:


> In contrast, construction of HSR between León and Asturias (Pajares base tunnel) makes sense as sooner or later that line would have had to be built from scratch in order to have a decent railway line between Asturias and the rest of Spain. And I can imagine the difference of building the long base tunnel and its connecting lines as classic railway instead of as HSR wouldn't have been less expensive -hardly anything from the current classic line can be upgraded.


True, although the classic line will probably survive just in case.



arctic_carlos said:


> The same can be said with regards to the HSL to Galicia, where an upgrade of the classic line would have also entailed building long sections from scratch.


In which section? Have you ever travelled on that line?
I'm afraid I can't agree on this part.



arctic_carlos said:


> However, let's not forget that in several corridors the upgrade has indeed been chosen instead of building a completely new line. That's the case of Tarragona - Valencia, Sevilla - Cádiz or A Coruña - Vigo.


Correct.



arctic_carlos said:


> Common sense says that in the future the same decision will be followed in other lines, such as Zaragoza - Logroño / Pamplona, Sevilla - Huelva or Palencia - Santander.


I agree with Saragossa-Logroño/Pamplona-Vitoria.

Disagree with the other two. I don't think any massive upgrade is needed on the Huelva and Santander lines, other than maintenance. 



arctic_carlos said:


> One of the main problem, in my opinion, is that some important corridors were given less priority and now there are no funds to construct them. I'm thinking of Burgos - Vitoria (part of Madrid - Bilbao and Madrid - Hendaye corridors) and Valencia - Castellón (including both the new through station and the new urban tunnel in Valencia), where a dedicated HSL is far more necessary than in other parts of the country where upgrading the old line was feasible (namely Venta de Baños junction - León).


True.


----------



## arctic_carlos

437.001 said:


> In which section? Have you ever travelled on that line?
> I'm afraid I can't agree on this part.


I've never used it, so maybe I'm wrong. 

What is exactly your opinion? That the old line between Medina del Campo and Ourense (or even Santiago) could have been upgraded?

Basing my assumptions merely on aerial images, it seems that the decision to construct of a completely new line between Olmedo junction and Zamora was the right choice. But I imagine there are intermediate options of upgrade that could have been considered.



437.001 said:


> Disagree with the other two. I don't think any massive upgrade is needed on the Huelva and Santander lines, other than maintenance.


Well, at least they have almost completely abandoned old plans to build full HSR there. There has been a recent upgrade on the Palencia - Santander line, so I imagine nothing is going to change there in the short or medium term. 

However, nothing has been done on Seville - Huelva line (besides creating commuter services on the section close to Sevilla), so I guess sooner or later some kind of investment will be done. Let's not forget that an hypothetic reopening of Huelva -Ayamonte would have an impact on patronage we cannot imagine right now, especially with regards to tourism. And if an international rail bridge is ever built, there could be direct Seville - Faro services. But let's go back to reality. :lol:


----------



## 437.001

arctic_carlos said:


> I've never used it, so maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> What is exactly your opinion? That the old line between Medina del Campo and Ourense (or even Santiago) could have been upgraded?


Not a lot, to be honest. Maybe between Medina and... let's be optimistic, let's say Abejera. The rest of the line on from Abejera is far too bendy and it is in good state anyway.



arctic_carlos said:


> Basing my assumptions merely on aerial images, it seems that the decision to construct of a completely new line between Olmedo junction and Zamora was the right choice. But I imagine there are intermediate options of upgrade that could have been considered.


The main goal there is a good travel time between Corunna and Madrid.
Remember that Corunna is almost as far away from Madrid as Girona, but without any Barcelona or Saragossa in between, so travel time is vital.



arctic_carlos said:


> Well, at least they have almost completely abandoned old plans to build full HSR there. There has been a recent upgrade on the Palencia - Santander line, so I imagine nothing is going to change there in the short or medium term.


Certainly not in the case of Santander, but remember that the HSL that should have reached Santander would have got there from Bilbao, not Palencia. 

That would have made sense since Bilbao-Santander would have been a massive improvement, and also travel times from Madrid would have improved quite a bit too, not to talk about travel times from places such as Pamplona, Vitoria, Saragossa or Barcelona.
Right now, travelling to Santander by rail from Bilbao or from down the Ebro valley doesn't make sense, it's not competitive at all.
Remember that the Electrotren Barcelona-Santander was removed many years ago, as it only had passengers between Barcelona and Palencia.



arctic_carlos said:


> However, nothing has been done on Seville - Huelva line (besides creating commuter services on the section close to Seville), so I guess sooner or later some kind of investment will be done.


I don't think that would be worthy. Just look at the number of trains on the route Madrid-Huelva per day, and the number of Seville-Huelva trains. Not worth it. 



arctic_carlos said:


> Let's not forget that an hypothetic reopening of Huelva -Ayamonte would have an impact on patronage we cannot imagine right now, especially with regards to tourism. And if an international rail bridge is ever built, there could be direct Seville - Faro services. But let's go back to reality. :lol:


Seville-Faro is about as likely as me getting pregnant.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> I don't think that would be worthy. Just look at the number of trains on the route Madrid-Huelva per day, and the number of Seville-Huelva trains. Not worth it.


We had the discussion on exactly this line here not too long ago and kind of agreed that in principle there might be a market for far more train Seville-Huelva trains. Is that not so? 

From my naive Swiss perspective about 25 per day per direction would be normal (hourly always, half an hourly in peak times). :lol:

Edit: I'm not saying a new line ought to be built there, just that more trains would be of use.


----------



## krisu99

Sunfuns said:


> I'm not saying a new line ought to be built there, just that more trains would be of use.


A, ein Basler?  
The difference between Latin vs. Nordic approaches in infrastructure politics seems to be:

"Let's build high speed lines, we don't really know how many trains will use that infrastructure. But once the fastest long distance infrastructure is there, trains will show up and it will be fine".
(Figueras - Perpignan, Torino - Milano, just to name two highly expensive lines that see maybe a handful of trains a day...)

vs.

"Current network is overloaded, so lets improve the infrastructure at this specific bottleneck, and also that other. Oh, traffic increases, we need a few dozen kilometers of high speed line here, and there too, and it will take us 30 years to build it at least. But once it is there, we'll squeeze those 200 trains or more a day onto that expensive fast rail, and optimize everything until obsession"
(Eg.: Mattstetten - Rothrist, Karlsruhe - Basel ...)


Of course, this is a limited stereotype classification, but roughly, it may have some truth in it...


From my personal infrastructure point of view, the super-extensive Latin approach is kind of something magic, and surreal when observed from faw away, from within the "Nordic" perspective. I love infrastructure


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> We had the discussion on exactly this line here not too long ago and kind of agreed that in principle there might be a market for far more train Seville-Huelva trains. Is that not so?


I was being theoretical. Now I'm practical.



Sunfuns said:


> From my naive Swiss perspective about 25 per day per direction would be normal (hourly always, half an hourly in peak times). :lol:


I'm afraid that the answer to this is far too long to be put in just a few words and goes far beyond the simple content of the Spain HSR thread.

And now it's rather late and I want to go to bed, because tomorrow I have to work.

Besides, maybe I'd rather answer in French, which is a language I'm more at ease with than English. You speak French, I presume?

Are you ok if I answer through a private message?


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Besides, maybe I'd rather answer in French, which is a language I'm more at ease with than English. You speak French, I presume?
> 
> Are you ok if I answer through a private message?


I'm not a native Swiss and speak (to various levels of proficiency) Latvian, English, Russian and German. I wish I could at least read French and Spanish too, but I'm afraid my ability to learn new languages has limits. :lol:

I suspect English is the only overlapping one between me and you...


----------



## alserrod

Today's second anniversary of Santiago accident.

Investigations keep on


----------



## Tower Dude

Hey what's the progress of the Basque Y? Is it under construction, yet? If not, who is dragging their feet?


----------



## krisu99

The Basque Y is under way. Where works have started, they are well advanced and working expediently. 

There is a big problem however: There are some rather short sections where works have not yet started (or if they started it was just a few months ago). 

Those really short sections involve tunnels and bridges, and can't be built quickly.

The stretch from Vittoria to Bilbao is more advanced than the leg to San Sebastian.

The current situation is more or less like this:
http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu...30750461164455,-2.9729658953685885)&mt=hybrid

The missing links are: 
* Connection to Vitoria (Provisionally - can be done quickly, flat land)
* Connection to Bilbao (Provisionally - some structures are needed, but not that much)
* The Triangle near Bergara where all 3 legs meet: There are tunnels to excavate and bridges to be built, that will take some years. They have started cutting trees and building access roads along the alignment only in Spring 2015:
http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu....0601561794073,-2.5810495607395296)&mt=hybrid

(The Google aerial imagery here dates from October 2014, hence you can't see the initial works on the missing segments)

For the rest, everything is now going well, except another section where works have not started yet (which is wrongly marked as U/C in the linked map), which is this this segment of around 5,5km, also requiring an approx. 2km tunnel.
http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu...10958394045429,-2.6279989473362093)&mt=hybrid


AFAIK, the opening date is now scheduled for 2018, but when looking at satellite imagery, I doubt they'll be able to make it. I guess it will become 2019 or so...

Basically, it like a huge puzzle nearly completed, but there are some very final pieces missing which will take some extra time...


----------



## Tower Dude

Awesome, how about connecting San Sebastián to Bourdeaux any progress on that?


----------



## 437.001

Tower Dude said:


> Awesome, how about connecting San Sebastián to Bourdeaux any progress on that?


Not in the short or mid term, the French Basque are strongly against that.


----------



## Tower Dude

437.001 said:


> Not in the short or mid term, the French Basque are strongly against that.


Like how the Piedmontese are against the Turino-Lyon TAV?


----------



## Silly_Walks

437.001 said:


> Not in the short or mid term, the French Basque are strongly against that.


Why??


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...t-maintains-hs-rail-spending.html?channel=523
> 
> *Spanish 2016 budget maintains HS rail spending*
> Friday, August 28, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _RAIL will remain Spain's transport priority according to the draft budget for 2016 which allocates more than half of spending to rail projects with a special focus on completing the extensive high-speed network_
> 
> According to the 2016 budget prepared by the Ministry of Public Works and Transport, 54% or €5.46bn of the €10.13bn transport budget will be allocated to rail. High-speed rail will receive €3.68bn, which is 67%t of the rail budget.
> 
> The Madrid – Galicia line, which will be extended from Olmedo to Zamora by the end of this year, will receive just over €1bn. Work to connect it with the already-opened Ourense - Santiago and A Coruña - Vigo lines continue. The Spanish government wants to open the whole corridor in 2018
> 
> ...


----------



## OriK

2016 budget is still a joke as probably the current gov won't be in charge next year.


----------



## 437.001

^^
Or maybe it will, but not alone.


----------



## 437.001

*Rumour!!* :gossip:

New HSL Valladolid-Palencia-Leon could maybe open on September 27, 2015.

Source: one of our deep throats.


----------



## Sunfuns

Do you have any extra information regarding new services, travel times and so on?


----------



## alserrod

Not yet. We have full of information but nothing official yet


----------



## Gusiluz

*Valladolid-León*

The new services are not published yet, and we are not sure that these (roundtrip 6 days a week):

2 AVE Madrid-León
2 AVCity (Avant, Economy Class only), 1 to León and another Palencia
4/5 Alvia Madrid-Gijón
1 Alvia Dual (hybrid) Madrid-León-Lugo-Ferrol
3 Alvia Madrid-Santander (only until Palencia)

The Burgos-León trains must wait until 2016.
The Pajares by-pass (tunnel in Asturias) also be in 2016.

The time from Madrid to León (345 km) will spend 2 h 41 m to 2 h at AVE 200 km/h speed limit between Valladolid and Leon (173 km/h average). In 2016, according to Renfe, 1 h 45 m with ERTMS (ETCS 2) (197 km/h average).

The ministry has said to the media will be the 24th, although trains for sale are charged to 26. 
It may also be that the official opening is 24 (due to agenda of the King: elections in Catalonia) and start real (the joke in spanish is too easy, sorry) service is 27. 
If politicians realize that, perhaps, not such a good idea, from a political point of view, open the line in Leon shortly before the elections, for possible political use, they are able to leave until October.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

Gusiluz said:


> It may also be that the official opening is 24 (due to agenda of the King: elections in Catalonia) and start real (the joke in spanish is too easy, sorry) service is 27.


Do any real AVE trainsets exist, either constant medium gauge or variable gauge (giving the King flexibility as to where to go)?


----------



## alserrod

If you ask about if King travels in train... yes. Not often but yeah (other politicians use it much more)

Here's a news about FORMER king (current king is his son) travelling some months ago from Barcelona to Madrid

http://www.europapress.es/chance/re...n-carlos-pasajero-mas-ave-20150325062934.html


and being still kings, they had a meeting in Santander and the Queen wanted to travel to London to visit a relative. Air Force is allowed only for King and Prince (Princess now). Therefore... queen chose the easiest journey Santander-London: Ryanair.


----------



## lkstrknb

I had a great train ride from Barcelona to Madrid last year and made a short video of the ride. I sat in Preferente class and enjoyed a complimentary meal and drinks! I was really impressed.


----------



## alserrod

Shortly, minute 3:21 is the Zaragoza by-pass


----------



## Sunfuns

Gusiluz said:


> The Burgos-León trains must wait until 2016.
> The Pajares by-pass (tunnel in Asturias) also be in 2016.


Same also for line to Zamora or not known yet?



Gusiluz said:


> The time from Madrid to León (345 km) will spend 2 h 41 m to 2 h at AVE 200 km/h speed limit between Valladolid and Leon (173 km/h average). In 2016, according to Renfe, 1 h 45 m with ERTMS (ETCS 2) (197 km/h average).


That's respectable, but I guess these lines are not built to quite a same standard as Madrid-Barcelona where if I remember correctly the average is about 240 km/h.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Zamora will open by year-end or, probably, in 2016; like all other.

Madrid-Barcelona average is 248 km/h, best in Spain, the problem here is the only one track access to the cities.


----------



## 437.001

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Zamora will open by year-end or, probably, in 2016; like all other.


Gusiluz means that probably only the Valladolid-Palencia-Leon HSL will open this year, while the others, that is:

-Olmedo-Zamora (with parts in single-track)
-Antequera Santa Ana-Antequera-Granada (without the Loja section, and parts in single-track)
-Madrid Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (without Madrid-Atocha underground platforms)
-Monforte del Cid-San Isidro-Murcia (with parts in single track)
-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona (plus chord towards Lleida/Zaragoza)
-La Robla-Pola de Lena (Pajares base tunnels, with parts in single track)

^^
...will open in 2016.



Gusiluz said:


> Madrid-Barcelona average is 248 km/h, best in Spain, the problem here is the only one track access to the cities.


Not exactly. Saragossa gets double track access, it's only the section of the tunnel under the city that is in single track.

The Lleida access is overall in single track.

So the best average on the Madrid-Barcelona route is achieved only by the non-stop trains. Trains calling at intermediate stations get a much worse average speed.

The only line that isn't up to standards with the rest is Madrid-Seville, as it's much older and slower. Oh and the Huesca branch, but that's hardly a HSL.
The other lines, if finished, are/will be able for good speeds.


----------



## chornedsnorkack

alserrod said:


> If you ask about if King travels in train... yes. Not often but yeah (other politicians use it much more)
> 
> Here's a news about FORMER king (current king is his son) travelling some months ago from Barcelona to Madrid
> 
> http://www.europapress.es/chance/re...n-carlos-pasajero-mas-ave-20150325062934.html
> 
> 
> and being still kings, they had a meeting in Santander and the Queen wanted to travel to London to visit a relative. Air Force is allowed only for King and Prince (Princess now). Therefore... queen chose the easiest journey Santander-London: Ryanair.


Does King travel on _scheduled_ trains along with fellow ticketed passengers, or on _out of schedule_ trains reserved for him and his retinue?
Which planes does Air Force use to fly King and Princess? Note that Queen for some reason used Ryanair to fly to London, not Iberia...


----------



## alserrod

Iberia doesn't fly Santander-London. It was faster a Ryanair than going to Bilbao and taking on Iberia

Any politician will go on a regular train. Maybe more than half of coach will be security staff but regular ones.
I have travelled in the same coach than the major of my city. I guess many security people were them too.


In adittion, sometimes we post sport teams that use train prior to bus or plane to arrive other cities. There are cases when they decide to make partially travel by bus, approach to a station and keep on by rail


----------



## chornedsnorkack

alserrod said:


> Any politician will go on a regular train. Maybe more than half of coach will be security staff but regular ones.
> I have travelled in the same coach than the major of my city. I guess many security people were them too.


Did Caudillo and his guard also share coaches on scheduled trains with ticketed passengers?
Flying was possible and important, but Caudillo was Caudillo in the first place because two Nationalist leaders happened to die in air crashes....


----------



## Gusiluz

437.001 said:


> Gusiluz means that probably only the Valladolid-Palencia-Leon HSL will open this year, while the others, that is:
> 
> -Olmedo-Zamora (with parts in single-track)
> -Antequera Santa Ana-Antequera-Granada (without the Loja section, and parts in single-track)
> -Madrid Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (without Madrid-Atocha underground platforms)
> -Monforte del Cid-San Isidro-Murcia (with parts in single track)
> -Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona (plus chord towards Lleida/Zaragoza)
> -La Robla-Pola de Lena (Pajares base tunnels, with parts in single track)
> 
> ^^
> ...will open in 2016.
> 
> 
> 
> Not exactly. Saragossa gets double track access, it's only the section of the tunnel under the city that is in single track.
> 
> The Lleida access is overall in single track.
> 
> So the best average on the Madrid-Barcelona route is achieved only by the non-stop trains. Trains calling at intermediate stations get a much worse average speed.
> 
> The only line that isn't up to standards with the rest is Madrid-Seville, as it's much older and slower. Oh and the Huesca branch, but that's hardly a HSL.
> The other lines, if finished, are/will be able for good speeds.


It has nothing to do with it.
_



Madrid-Barcelona average is 248 km/h, best in Spain, the problem here is the only one track access to the cities.

Click to expand...

I should have written this to make it clear:




Madrid-Barcelona average is 248 km/h, best in Spain; the problem in the Valladolid-León HSL is the only one track access to the cities.

Click to expand...

 _


----------



## 437.001

chornedsnorkack said:


> Did Caudillo and his guard also share coaches on scheduled trains with ticketed passengers?
> Flying was possible and important, but Caudillo was Caudillo in the first place because two Nationalist leaders happened to die in air crashes....


We do not talk politics here.


----------



## 437.001

Gusiluz said:


> It has nothing to do with it.
> _I should have written this to make it clear:
> _


_

Oh yeah, but I was alreaady thinking about that.
But there's a difference, and it's that even though average speed there will always be slower, the Valladolid-Palencia-Leon line is not "finished" yet.

Anyway that difference will be little, and anyway the rolling stock used will most certainly be only Alvia._


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Why is Asturias particularly unpopular among the Spanish as a place to live? No jobs whatsoever? I haven't been there yet myself, but I have been to neighbouring Galicia and I liked that place a lot (to visit at least).


Asturias is not under danger of extinction, unlike Robi_damian says.

It's not that Asturias is unpopular, on the contrary, many people who go there as tourists come back delighted, and Asturian food is really excellent, nothing to envy the Basque Country.

It's just that it's our little "Broken Northern England/Glasgow/Cardiff" side. 
Definitely NOT the Mediterranean. Even Liverpool is more Mediterranean than Gijon in some climatic respects.

Asturias used to be one of the richest Spanish regions, and one of the most heavily industrialized. Specialised in mines. Coal in particular. 
But unlike the Basque Country, it has never really recovered from the 1970/80s crisis. Now it's one of the poorest Spanish regions. 

As many people outside Spain do not know, Northern Spain is really rainy, I mean really very much rainy.
Just as much as Glasgow, if not more. I'm not joking at all. 
Only that they get more daylight in winter than the Scots do, but that's about it. 
And it's just about as cold as Scotland. So beach tourism in Med-style is really not an option for Asturias. Even less than for Galicia.
Of course, both in Asturias and Scotland one is absolutely free to go to the beach. Even in winter... :naughty:

They are doing a lot of promotion inside Spain, but I'm not sure wether they do it abroad as well or not.
There's also the fact that it's very difficult for Spain to remind Northern Europeans of an Atlantic, green and rainy, bagpipe-playing, cider-drinking image.
They just go _"that's not really Spain"_... but it turns out it's the cradle of the country. :lol: 
Ot they'll just go _"I don't like it, it's not sunny, to go there I'd rather stay at home"_.

Many Asturians suspect that the lack of modern infrastructure has damaged their then-powerful economy.
I believe it's true.
Politics haven't helped either. Its trade unions are VERY strong, if you know what I mean.



Sunfuns said:


> Now the investment has been made though and it would be for the best to claim maximum possible advantage.


It hasn't "been made". It's not until the Pajares tunnels open. 
Once they open, we'll start to feel the difference, I'm certain of it.


----------



## Robi_damian

DOUBLE POST


----------



## Robi_damian

437.001 said:


> Asturias is not under danger of extinction, unlike Robi_damian says.


Well, the population is halving every 33 years at generation-foration level, with a small masking effect from rising life expectancy and the odd immigration. It, together with parts of Castilla y Leon and Galicia have the worst demographics in Spain and possibly some of the worst on Earth. And if SADEI preliminary data for 2015 are an indicator for the whole year, Asturians are sinking even lower in terms of having basically no children (i.e. the average number of children might fall to 0.99 or below). Hence my aprehensions on investments into HSR in the region. Seville is a completely different beast due to its population size, as well as that of Andalucia.



437.001 said:


> Anyway, I find that rather curious, because many of us defend the Pajares tunnels yet despise the Valladolid-Burgos and Venta de Baños-Leon HSLs.


What are the aprehensions about these?

P.S. I am back in Romania, it is just that the Bilbao brainwashing is strong. :lol:


----------



## Sunfuns

It will never rival Andalusia as a tourist destination that's for sure, but the North has its charms as well. Scotland is very popular with visitors, but I guess you are right the problem is it doesn't go together with the image of "Sun and sand in Spain".


----------



## 437.001

Robi_damian said:


> Well, the population is halving every 33 years at generation-foration level, with a small masking effect from rising life expectancy and the odd immigration. It, together with parts of Castilla y Leon and Galicia have the worst demographics in Spain and possibly some of the worst on Earth. And if SADEI preliminary data for 2015 are an indicator for the whole year, Asturians are sinking even lower in terms of having basically no children (i.e. the average number of children might fall to 0.99 or below). Hence my aprehensions on investments into HSR in the region. Seville is a completely different beast due to its population size, as well as that of Andalucia.


Don't panic with Asturias.
Even if its demographics look as horrible as its weather, I doubt any seaside province will get THAT bad.
And if one of them had to sink this low, I'd rather put my money in Lugo.
But places like Soria, Teruel, Zamora, Avila, even parts of Guadalajara are in a much worse position, demographically.



Robi_damian said:


> What are the aprehensions about these?


That a simple upgrade (or even no upgrade at all) of the classic line would have sufficed, and instead the difficult parts could have been built, to greater decrease of travel time for the regions that needed it the most.

They went for the out and out HSL model, they didn't want to realise that they had to pop the housing bubble or otherwise we'd have a serious problem, so now, after the worst crisis in seventy years thanks to our genius politicians, we have to swallow the HSL, yes, but cut, cheaper and half-cooked.

An improvement? Indeed. But not always where it improves the most.



Robi_damian said:


> P.S. I am back in Romania, it is just that the Bilbao brainwashing is strong. :lol:






Sunfuns said:


> It will never rival Andalusia as a tourist destination that's for sure, but the North has its charms as well. Scotland is very popular with visitors, but I guess you are right the problem is it doesn't go together with the image of "Sun and sand in Spain".


Asturias even less than Galicia. The first time I heard a British tourist say _"that's not really Spain, is it?"_ I was rather shocked... :lol:


----------



## Silly_Walks

437.001 said:


> i.e. Seville was one city before the HSL opened. Now it's another.


What changed?


----------



## 437.001

Silly_Walks said:


> What changed?


Lots of things. It's been 23 years... some are not just down to the HSL, but it played an important role in the development of the city.

But basically, now it's far more easier to get there than 23 years ago.
I've done Tarragona-Seville in 4h30min on an AVE. That's nearly 1000 km. 
When I was a kid, in the 1980s, that took no less than 12 hours.


----------



## Suburbanist

Portugal needs to built HSL to Badajoz (from Lisboa), to Sevilla (from Faro) and to Vigo (from Porto).


----------



## Robi_damian

Suburbanist said:


> Portugal needs to built HSL to Badajoz (from Lisboa), to Sevilla (from Faro) and to Vigo (from Porto).


I doubt it is economically viable unless the economic integration of Spain and Portugal rises. Even then the Lisbon-Madrid link would probably be the only truly viable one...


----------



## DKF01

Suburbanist said:


> Portugal needs to built HSL to Badajoz (from Lisboa), to Sevilla (from Faro) and to Vigo (from Porto).





Robi_damian said:


> I doubt it is economically viable unless the economic integration of Spain and Portugal rises. Even then the Lisbon-Madrid link would probably be the only truly viable one...


The HSL Lisboa-Badajoz was about to be built but it got cancelled. 
And if I remember correctly HSL Lisboa-Porto and HSL Lisboa-Madrid were the only lines that would be able make positive net while HSL Porto-Vigo (prolongation of HSL Lisboa-Porto) would be in the negative.
Meanwhile the HSL Lisboa-Faro-Sevilla just remained as an idea.


----------



## Mac_07




----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Portugal needs to built HSL to Badajoz (from Lisboa), to Sevilla (from Faro) and to Vigo (from Porto).





Robi_damian said:


> I doubt it is economically viable unless the economic integration of Spain and Portugal rises. Even then the Lisbon-Madrid link would probably be the only truly viable one...


The problem with this is that right now, Madrid to Lisbon by train is horrible.
Generally speaking, travelling by train from Spain to Portugal is horrible.
Very, very bad travel times.

Only the Vigo to Porto route via Tui/Valença do Minho is half-decent, the other routes are a no-no, to the point they've all been cancelled, excepting the Madrid-Lisbon and Irun/Hendaye-Lisbon night trains, via Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso.
So only four routes cross the border between Spain and Portugal every day, and two of them coupled! 
So it's three trains goind beyond Valença/Tui or Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso, one of them a night train. Very clearly much less than it should be.

But the construction of the new link between Evora and Elvas will create a new link between Badajoz and Lisbon, much faster than the existing one vis Torre das Vargens (which is closed for passengers at the moment), and that, even if the new line is not a HSL. 
So potential for passenger traffic between Madrid and Lisbon will increase.
This, backed with the Madrid-Badajoz HSL (or at least, the parts of it that get built), will no doubt boost passenger traffic in Western Spain, and between Spain and Portugal overall.

The cost? Well the platform's there between Navalmoral and Badajoz. And if we don't try, we won't be able to know if there's potential to grow or not.
As for now, it's as good as if there is no Madrid-Lisbon line of any kind.


----------



## Sunfuns

Do you have any info about the latest progress if any on Placencia-Badajoz new line? I remember there were some impressive engineering structures on that route.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Do you have any info about the latest progress if any on Placencia-Badajoz new line? I remember there were some impressive engineering structures on that route.


Not a lot. They keep on building those three impressive viaducts between Plasencia and Caceres, they've just authorised the new link to Merida station in 3rd rail... and that's about it, they're going very slow on this one, since this year it's not a priority.


----------



## Sunfuns

An outstanding detailed article about the least advanced stage of Galicia high speed line between Pedralba and Ourense. There is hardly any stretch there which is not on a viaduct or in the tunnel.

http://gou.laregion.es/El-AVE-a-la-vista_extra-La-Region.pdf

(In Spanish, but Google translate is a friend for those of us not speaking that language)


----------



## hammersklavier

437.001 said:


> Don't panic with Asturias.
> Even if its demographics look as horrible as its weather, I doubt any seaside province will get THAT bad.
> And if one of them had to sink this low, I'd rather put my money in Lugo.
> But places like Soria, Teruel, Zamora, Avila, even parts of Guadalajara are in a much worse position, demographically.


Spain is one of those types of countries where the whole place is interesting from a tourist perspective. While the south has sun, sand, Catalonia, and Andalusian architecture, the north is really the country's heartland. It's greener and cooler, was never conquered by the Muslims, and was one of the more culturally advanced places in medieval Christendom. The real trick is to leverage the region's strengths so that it can compete on a similar footing as the south: _The North: Lush, Medieval, Picturesque: Spain Like You've Never Seen It Before_.


> Asturias even less than Galicia. The first time I heard a British tourist say _"that's not really Spain, is it?"_ I was rather shocked... :lol:


Just goes to show you how strong perceptions are ... until they're shocked by reality :nuts:


----------



## antiguogrumete

*Valencia Trains (North Station) Nov. 2015*

Trains in the North Station (Valencia, Spain) Nov. 2015 ,Including AVE


----------



## neuromancer

437.001 said:


> Not a lot. They keep on building those three impressive viaducts between Plasencia and Caceres, they've just authorised the new link to Merida station in 3rd rail... and that's about it, they're going very slow on this one, since this year it's not a priority.


Almonte Viaduct


----------



## neuromancer

Another vid:


----------



## 437.001

:gossip: *Rumour!!* :gossip:

Looks like the *new section on the Madrid-Galicia HSL, between Olmedo junction and Zamora, could open on December 18*.
The same day, the electrification of the classic line between Medina del Campo and Salamanca will open, starting new services Madrid-Salamanca through the HSL.

The new intermediate Medina del Campo-AV station, only for HSR services, will not open yet, since it's not finished.

This is not an official date yet, but the definitive date won't be much different.

There will be two new operating gauge changers, one at Medina del Campo-AV, for Avant services Madrid-Salamanca (which will use the HSL between Madrid and Medina del Campo-AV), and one at Zamora, for Alvia services Madrid-Galicia.

Apparently, an Avant Madrid-Segovia would be extended until Zamora.
The rest of the services to Zamora will stay the same, only that the travel time will be significantly cut (around 30 min less).


----------



## Sunfuns

I read elsewhere that another section of HS line to Galicia (Zamora-Pedralba) might be operational in late 2016 or early 2017 well before the entire structure is finished. Is that accurate?


----------



## 437.001

^^
We still don't know.
It will depend on the ways the budget will be allocated. 
Remember as well that on December 20 we have national elections, whose outcome could change things rail-wise... or not.

Keep in mind that Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona, Antequera-Granada, Monforte del Cid-Murcia, the Madrid Chamartin-Madrid Atocha-Torrejon de Velasco, the Pajares tunnels, Valencia-La Encina, the Basque Y, and Pedralba-Ourense are also in works, so the schedule might change. 

That, of course, not counting on any potential upgrade of the classic line (one springs to mind, for instance, the electrification of Salamanca-Vilar Formoso).

And the rolling stock that goes with it all.

It will be a lot of money.


----------



## Neb81

437.001 said:


> ^^
> We still don't know.
> It will depend on the ways the budget will be allocated.
> Remember as well that on December 20 we have national elections, whose outcome could change things rail-wise... or not.
> 
> Keep in mind that Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona, Antequera-Granada, Monforte del Cid-Murcia, the Madrid Chamartin-Madrid Atocha-Torrejon de Velasco, the Pajares tunnels, Valencia-La Encina, the Basque Y, and Pedralba-Ourense are also in works, so the schedule might change.
> 
> That, of course, not counting on any potential upgrade of the classic line (one springs to mind, for instance, the electrification of Salamanca-Vilar Formoso).
> 
> And the rolling stock that goes with it all.
> 
> It will be a lot of money.


That's a mighty big shopping list!


----------



## jonasry

437.001 said:


> ^^
> We still don't know.
> It will depend on the ways the budget will be allocated.
> Remember as well that on December 20 we have national elections, whose outcome could change things rail-wise... or not.
> 
> Keep in mind that Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona, Antequera-Granada, Monforte del Cid-Murcia, the Madrid Chamartin-Madrid Atocha-Torrejon de Velasco, the Pajares tunnels, Valencia-La Encina, the Basque Y, and Pedralba-Ourense are also in works, so the schedule might change.
> 
> That, of course, not counting on any potential upgrade of the classic line (one springs to mind, for instance, the electrification of Salamanca-Vilar Formoso).
> 
> And the rolling stock that goes with it all.
> 
> It will be a lot of money.


Do you know the position of different parties regarding rail/high-speed rail?


----------



## 437.001

Neb81 said:


> That's a mighty big shopping list!


Not really. Many of them are fairly advanced, and very much delayed.



jonasry said:


> Do you know the position of different parties regarding rail/high-speed rail?


It doesn't matter what they say. What matters is what they do. They're politicians.

And anyway, whatever their position is about it, it looks like the new government will have to be a coalition, so... 

Wait and see.

Anyway, all of the aforementioned sections will be opened, the only question is when.


----------



## 437.001

:siren: *NEWS!* :siren:

And talking about openings... 

The *HSL between Olmedo junction and Zamora opened on December 17*. 

The fastest travel time Madrid-Zamora is now of 1h 33min.

I think Alvia services running beyond Zamora (bound for Corunna, Ferrol, Ourense or Pontevedra) still use the classic line for now, as it seems the new Zamora gauge changer isn't finished yet.

One new Alvia service has been added. It does the route Madrid-Segovia-Zamora and vv.

Besides, the same day the *electrification of the Medina del Campo-Salamanca classic line opened too*. 

New electric Alvia services have started operating between Madrid and Salamanca, calling at Segovia.

The fastest travel time Madrid-Salamanca is now of 1h 36min.

Source: SSC Spain.


----------



## pai nosso

437.001 said:


> :siren: *NEWS!* :siren:
> 
> And talking about openings...
> 
> The *HSL between Olmedo junction and Zamora opened on December 17*.
> 
> The fastest travel time Madrid-Zamora is now of 1h 33min.
> 
> I think Alvia services running beyond Zamora (bound for Corunna, Ferrol, Ourense or Pontevedra) still use the classic line for now, as it seems the new Zamora gauge changer isn't finished yet.
> 
> One new Alvia service has been added. It does the route Madrid-Segovia-Zamora and vv.
> 
> Besides, the same day the *electrification of the Medina del Campo-Salamanca classic line opened too*.
> 
> New electric Alvia services have started operating between Madrid and Salamanca, calling at Segovia.
> 
> The fastest travel time Madrid-Salamanca is now of 1h 36min.
> 
> Source: SSC Spain.



Only a few days of the general elections in Spain!!:lol::lol:

Polticians never change!!:lol:hno:hno:


Thanks for the info!!


----------



## Sunfuns

I almost want to look up when the next general elections are going to be. Could be informative for the topic of this thread. :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

Is it true that Ciudadanos is against high speed rail and wants to stop all projects?


----------



## krisu99

I would suggest to terminate what can be terminated within the next few years, then work on integration of the UIC HSR network with classic lines where this makes sense.

Then drop any projects that are completed only a few % and will cost enormous amounts of money to complete (like the Corredor Navarro).

And especially drop the ambitious UIC re/double gauging of the Mediterranean corridor (it will be a never ending story anyway) in favor of flexible UIC-Iberian rolling stock, both passenger and freight and gauge changing where appropriate.

After all, gauge changing is working fast and smoothless nowadays, even for 250km/h (300km/h) trains, which was not the case back in the Madrid-Sevilla UIC-decision.
Furthermore it prevents the proliferation of bottlenecks due to double tracks being converted to single tracks (one UIC, one Iberia) and all the associated hassle...
(There are more and more such UIC/Iberian capacity reduction bottlenecks!)

Anyway, the most important thing to do in my opinion is to invest in improving integration (time tables & connections). Time tables are still organized like the ones in central Europe 40 years ago, which is an enormous waste of resources, especially when considering the investments into high speed network and rolling stock.
I.e. while nowadays time tables should support the network character of a railway system (easing changing trains, regular interval timetables, systems of hubs and spokes) to justify high investments and costs, in Spain long distance services seem mostly organized on a per "Line" baisis with irregular service and missing connections. So one might be happy to go from A to B if both A and B are situated along the same (HSR-)line, but this only partially reflects the needs of the geographically distributed population...

In adition, while the HSR Network seems perfect in itself, wide parts of the iberian long distance network seem to fall apart. I fear in a not so far future many lines will be shut down because funds were too much drained by HSR...


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> I almost want to look up when the next general elections are going to be. Could be informative for the topic of this thread. :lol:


Don't even mention the word "elections"! 

:badnews:

We're a bit fed up with them by now... :nuts:



Suburbanist said:


> Is it true that Ciudadanos is against high speed rail and wants to stop all projects?


We can't say, it's too early, we don't know what will happen, and it's rather likely it will be a coalition anyway, so... wait and see.



krisu99 said:


> I would suggest to terminate what can be terminated within the next few years,


We're already at that.



krisu99 said:


> then work on integration of the UIC HSR network with classic lines where this makes sense.


No. It doesn't make sense in many cases. 
Geography and demography are the key to that.



krisu99 said:


> Then drop any projects that are completed only a few % and will cost enormous amounts of money to complete (like the Corredor Navarro).


That one is an understatement that it won't go ahead, or at least not in decades.

The only one that is not very advanced but definitely should go ahead is Murcia-Almeria.
But since it is not very advanced, they'll take it easier than with others.



krisu99 said:


> And especially drop the ambitious UIC re/double gauging of the Mediterranean corridor (it will be a never ending story anyway) in favor of flexible UIC-Iberian rolling stock, both passenger and freight and gauge changing where appropriate.
> 
> After all, gauge changing is working fast and smoothless nowadays, even for 250km/h (300km/h) trains, which was not the case back in the Madrid-Sevilla UIC-decision.


Should we? We only started it because the EU said so. Grunt... :sleepy:



krisu99 said:


> Furthermore it prevents the proliferation of bottlenecks due to double tracks being converted to single tracks (one UIC, one Iberia) and all the associated hassle...
> (There are more and more such UIC/Iberian capacity reduction bottlenecks!)


Keep in mind that availability of rolling stock can also be a problem.
Renfe is having more and more of a shortage of rolling stock.



krisu99 said:


> Anyway, the most important thing to do in my opinion is to invest in improving integration (time tables & connections). Time tables are still organized like the ones in central Europe 40 years ago, which is an enormous waste of resources, especially when considering the investments into high speed network and rolling stock.
> I.e. while nowadays time tables should support the network character of a railway system (easing changing trains, regular interval timetables, systems of hubs and spokes) to justify high investments and costs, in Spain long distance services seem mostly organized on a per "Line" baisis with irregular service and missing connections. So one might be happy to go from A to B if both A and B are situated along the same (HSR-)line, but this only partially reflects the needs of the geographically distributed population...


Mmmh... it's not as bad as it seems. Can be improved, but don't worry. 
The main railway hubs for connections are Zaragoza and Madrid, so it isn't much of a problem.



krisu99 said:


> In adition, while the HSR Network seems perfect in itself, wide parts of the iberian long distance network seem to fall apart. I fear in a not so far future many lines will be shut down because funds were too much drained by HSR...


No man. If any classic line closures were to happen, it would be because of their inefectiveness post-HSL.
Some lines just don't serve enough population, or are far too bendy for the route, and still exist only for the long-distance passenger service, otherwise certain provinces would have no rail by now. Once the HSR takes over, some services will have to be withdrawn.

It's not a problem of lack of funds, it's more a case of whatever funds were invested on certain classic lines wouldn't be useful anyway.

Spain's a unique case in Europe. No other European country has its population distribution, with big urban areas next to some of the least populated places in Europe, all of it in one of the most mountainous environments in the continent, in fact the most mountainous after Switzerland, but in a country the size of France.
In this respect, we're one of a kind, so well-tested solutions that have been successful in other parts of Europe are not warranted a success here, even if on paper they would appear to look logical.


----------



## Suburbanist

Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.


----------



## bifhihher

krisu99 said:


> And especially drop the ambitious UIC re/double gauging of the Mediterranean corridor (it will be a never ending story anyway) in favor of flexible UIC-Iberian rolling stock, both passenger and freight and gauge changing where appropriate.
> 
> After all, gauge changing is working fast and smoothless nowadays, even for 250km/h (300km/h) trains, which was not the case back in the Madrid-Sevilla UIC-decision.
> Furthermore it prevents the proliferation of bottlenecks due to double tracks being converted to single tracks (one UIC, one Iberia) and all the associated hassle...
> (There are more and more such UIC/Iberian capacity reduction bottlenecks!)


I disagree.
If you keep both gauges, you'll need heavy and expensive trains to run on standard and Iberian.
Why not allow lean and mean trains to run on the whole network anywhere.
Do you disagree that only one gauge as a whole aids network integration?
What if you'd like Madrid-small county services, without getting off?

But apart from that, as far as I know, high speed (250km/h+) gauge changing isn't possible, am I mistaken?


----------



## Richard_P

bifhihher said:


> But apart from that, as far as I know, high speed (250km/h+) gauge changing isn't possible, am I mistaken?


 Yes You are right but the problem isn't passenger rather freight trains for which functioning and affordable gage changing technology isn't available. This is what drives Mediterranean corridor UIC gauge implementation going.


----------



## Suburbanist

Just count the number of axles on a passenger train vs. freight train... You could theoretically use same technology but it would render freight cars very expensive.


----------



## parrocho

Suburbanist said:


> Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.


Only as off topic: It's not in the sense as you're thinking.
Spain has the second highest average height in Europe, after Switzerland. (In other sites is said Spain is fifth after Switzerland, Austria, Andorra and Liechtenstein) In Spain, the average height is about 650 metres above sea level.

If you add to this fact the vastness of the country, you can easily think about the difficulty to build a HSL.
Even being fifth, a HSL in Switzerland will be shorter, and maybe only one or two HSL would be necessary. In Spain, HSL are long and you need a lot of them to connect the major cities
France is bigger than Spain, but most of it's over a plain. Italy has the Alps, but the country is smaller and population live near the sea level.


----------



## bifhihher

Richard_P said:


> Yes You are right but the problem isn't passenger rather freight trains for which functioning and affordable gage changing technology isn't available. This is what drives Mediterranean corridor UIC gauge implementation going.


So in my opinion, this gauge changing is a good thing, the more produce and goods travel by rail (and not by road), the better!
Thank you Richard for this clarification.

I also hope night high speed corridors, and next to no air travel.
People from the US land in London or the coastal regions and travel further by rail.
I would love to go to China by high speed rail (I know the Siberian Express, I'll try to take that once too, but London - Beijing in 40 hours should be possible...)


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.


It is matter of opinion. Madrid is the highest capital in Europe (and only about 650 m osl, Bern is lower).

Going by motorway from Madrid to Zaragoza there is a sign with a little mountain pass... near 1.100 m.

To go north and east one long tunnel had to be built and so on.


In other ways, there are two "flat" areas (northen "meseta" and southern "meseta"), two open valleys (Ebro and Guadalquivir) and to go from one to other corner you may cross mountains. Higher or Smaller but mountains


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Spain can't be more mountainous than Austria, Italy or Norway, but I will not start a big argument on it and leave it at that.


It's not the height of the mountains, it's the number of them.

We don't have a Mont Blanc, but we have many more mountains than France. Few parts of Spain are really flat.

And that's a big problem for railway infrastructure, and for transport in general.


----------



## 00Zy99

bifhihher said:


> So in my opinion, this gauge changing is a good thing, the more produce and goods travel by rail (and not by road), the better!
> Thank you Richard for this clarification.
> 
> I also hope night high speed corridors, and next to no air travel.
> People from the US land in London or the coastal regions and travel further by rail.
> I would love to go to China by high speed rail (I know the Siberian Express, I'll try to take that once too, but London - Beijing in 40 hours should be possible...)


That's the dream. But I'd rather go to Hong Kong or Tokyo than Beijing.


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> Finally, some images of the new *Medina del Campo-AV station*.
> The HSL is already open here, but not the station which is still in works, not open yet. This is a parkway station, not in the city centre.
> And it is the junction for Alvia trains bound for Salamanca, which leave the HSL here, and through a new branch line including a new gauge changer they enter the Medina del Campo to Salamanca classic line.
> 
> In Spain we go from 0 to 100, then back from 100 to 0.
> After building spaceship-like stations, now the crisis has forced us to switch to... this:


That's the last of the problems. The first is the idiot location...


----------



## 437.001

00Zy99 said:


> Not really. Both are first world countries. But Spain managed to lay tracks and open a line in 1992, while the US did nothing but flail about.


Yes, but the USA has a freight-oriented rail network, and a very different urban layout.

Anyway, we'll see how they manage when they start operating their first HSL. 



00Zy99 said:


> Hahaha. What.
> 
> First of all, Elon Musk isn't funding anything other than the test track.
> 
> Second of all, everybody has lemons and this appears to be his. The ideas behind hyperloop have been around for 170 years (1840 literature, 1860 prototype) and its never gotten off the ground for very good reasons. Hyperloop is overly-complex, and the budget would be orders of magnitude beyond what is being hyped.





DCUrbanist said:


> Hyperloop has some pretty significant safety and capacity issues it needs to iron out (e.g., explosive decompression if any part of the metal tubes are ruptured, low-capacity vehicles without adequate stopping distance, etc.), as well as a way to address the same issues conventional high-speed rail faces (e.g., high construction and astronomical land acquisition costs) before it could be seen as an adequate contender for transportation.
> 
> Elon Musk is a smart man, so I assume that his chimerically low cost estimates for Hyperloop come from his desire to attract investors and interested politicians and less from a misunderstanding of how and why infrastructure costs as much as it does.


I think the both of you are right at the moment. Time will tell...



Coccodrillo said:


> That's the last of the problems. The first is the idiot location...


Yes, they lost a chance again. I don't get why they don't favor interchange with classic lines by building the HSR stations at the intersections, but then again... the area is car-oriented anyway.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> I don't get why they don't favor interchange with classic lines by building the HSR stations at the intersections, but then again... *the area is car-oriented anyway.*


Sure, but you can be car oriented and still prefer train for going to Madrid. Probably not from this station, though.


----------



## krisu99

Seriously? One can drive directly onto the tracks....
Here is a how-to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWdWHSgI-4


----------



## clickgr

Looking at the AVE network, the way it is designed looks to me a very good choice for transportation across a country like Spain, given the distances between the big cities and the flat terrain for most parts of the country. However the way it is implemented and the priorities given in the construction of the lines look to me a bit weird. 

It is very clear to everybody I think that the first priorities should have been and actually was the Madrid-Seville and the Madrid-Barcelona lines. The next priorities, the connection of Malaga to the Madrid-Seville line and the new Madrid-Valencia line also look reasonable to me. Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, Valencia, Malaga and Zaragoza which is located right on the Madrid-Barcelona line, are among the biggest metropolitan areas in the country with large and significant industry in most of them.

What I do not understand is why lines like Madrid-Extremadura, Madrid-Galicia, Madrid-Asturias, the Basque Y, Madrid-Burgos-Basque Country and Madrid-Albacete-Alicante put in relatively high priority (sometimes in the same priority as the lines above). Doesn't make more sense before starting building these long and expensive lines that actually do not serve any really large metropolitan area, to try first to exploit the existing lines in even better way, like connecting more cities to them? For example before building the long Madrid-Albacete-Alicante line it would be preferable to connect first Alicante with Valencia. Before building the Basque Y and the Madrid-Valladolid-Burgos-Basque country lines plus some others in the north of the country, to give priority to a single Bilbao-Vitoria-Zaragoza line. This would connect one of the biggest and most developed metropolitan areas in Spain, the city of Bilbao to Zaragoza and via this to both Madrid and Barcelona the two by far most populous and with the biggest industry metropolitan areas in country. San Sebastian, Burgos and other cities around could connect to this line at some later point of time. Bilbao almost 25 years after the introduction of the High speed service in Spain is still isolated from this network. Then the very next step for me should have been the connection between Barcelona and Valencia. 

I am not saying that Galicia or Extremadura or Asturias, or Almeria should not one day connect to the rest of the High speed network. But given the economical problems in Spain, if the priories were different, today the AVE would be able to serve the transportation needs of the country in a better way, maybe at lower cost and be in position to make more revenues than what it makes today. The conditions I think would have been much better in order to start building new lines for Galicia, Extremadura, Asturias, Almeria etc.


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## alserrod

Alicante had more passengers on classic line that Valencia cos travel time was similar and distance is upper


----------



## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Alicante had more passengers on classic line that Valencia cos travel time was similar and distance is upper


Do you mean the old Alicante-Madrid line had more passengers than the old Valencia-Madrid line? What I am saying is for cost savings Alicante and Valencia both could be served by the same high-speed line at first place. Do we know what is the traffic figures for the new high speed lines Alicante-Madrid and Valencia-Madrid in comparison?


----------



## alserrod

clickgr said:


> Do you mean the old Alicante-Madrid line had more passengers than the old Valencia-Madrid line?



Yes I do.

Both trains went till Albacete and later, Valencia and Murcia-Alicante branches got different directions.

Valencia-Madrid was 4 hours exactly with a train quite similar to the Italian Pendolino

Alicante-Madrid... not sure but 4ish hours


By car... Alicante-Madrid 420 km
Valencia-Madrid 350 km

In addition, I'm not sure but Valencia connection to Madrid by flight wasn't bad at all.

Therefore... more passengers to the destination with poor air link and far away by car with a similar time.




> What I am saying is for cost savings Alicante and Valencia both could be served by the same high-speed line at first place. Do we know what is the traffic figures for the new high speed lines Alicante-Madrid and Valencia-Madrid in comparison?


Until this point, the line is the same
https://www.google.es/maps/@39.583168,-1.9750575,10504m/data=!3m1!1e3

Later you have an own line only for Valencia and another one only for Alicante... but in addition both lines will be shared for an Alicante-Barcelona (this is, partially these streches will be used for those journeys with the new infrastructure)

I let other forumers giving data cos I know there are someones with accurate numbers.


----------



## clickgr

I know how the two new lines go, that´s why I wrote what I wrote above.

From what you are writing I understand the old Valencia-Madrid line didn't have much traffic due to the better alternatives of transportation, not due to the fact there were no many passengers traveling between the two cities. Now that the high speed train is a better alternative than the car or the plane, It would be interesting to see the number of people using it compared to those traveling between Alicante and Madrid by train.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ The latest data are from 2013: half year to Alicante in AVE.

Madrid-Valencia: 1,838,436. Current time: 98 minutes. Previous: 207 minutes. Average speed: 239 km/h.
Madrid-Alicante: 880,356. Current time: 125 minutes. Previous: 205 minutes. Average speed: 230 km/h.

The two lines have been a similar number of passengers from Madrid, until 2007 a little more Alicante (741,064 versus 736,256) and since then, more travelers to Valencia (703,011 versus 648,895 in 2010 both over conventional line).


----------



## alserrod

clickgr said:


> I know how the two new lines go, that´s why I wrote what I wrote above.
> 
> From what you are writing I understand the old Valencia-Madrid line didn't have much traffic due to the better alternatives of transportation, not due to the fact there were no many passengers traveling between the two cities. Now that the high speed train is a better alternative than the car or the plane, It would be interesting to see the number of people using it compared to those traveling between Alicante and Madrid by train.


There are two Madrid-Valencia classic lines. One through Cuenca and another one through Albacete.

All main trains went via Albacete. Cuenca one is only for regional and freight trains.


----------



## clickgr

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ The latest data are from 2013: half year to Alicante in AVE.
> 
> Madrid-Valencia: 1,838,436. Current time: 98 minutes. Previous: 207 minutes. Average speed: 239 km/h.
> Madrid-Alicante: 880,356. Current time: 125 minutes. Previous: 205 minutes. Average speed: 230 km/h.
> 
> The two lines have been a similar number of passengers from Madrid, until 2007 a little more Alicante (741,064 versus 736,256) and since then, more travelers to Valencia (703,011 versus 648,895 in 2010 both over conventional line).


So I think it is clear the Madrid-Valencia HSL is much more significant than the Madrid-Alicante HSL as it now serves more than double number of passengers.


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## Gusiluz

^^ When we have the data of 2014 (both destinations with AVE) we will see better (increase Alicante).

The important thing, from my perspective, is that the % of the aircraft versus AVE was 20% throughout 2013 to Alicante (in 2014 will be lower: between 15 and 18% in the second half), and to Valencia: 12%. And Valencia each year low.


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## clickgr

There is no doubt the Madrid-Alicante HSL is a useful line. However the same service could have been achieved via the Alicante-Valencia-Madrid route without big impact in the journey times. Definitely no more than 2,5 hours which is still huge improvement compared to the 4 hours in the old line and still competitive to the airplane. Plus the Alicante-Valencia high speed connection was already in the plans. The money saved going with this option could have been used to boost other more important lines like the Valencia-Barcelona line or the connection of the Basque country with the rest of the high-speed network, projects that until today still struggle to be finished.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ You forget Albacete... Had the current Madrid - Alicante route not been followed, Albacete wouldn't have HSR. And you also forget Murcia, a city that will have HSR access thanks to a branch off Madrid - Alicante HSL currently under construction.

In any event, the missing link between Valencia and Alicante (Valencia - Xàtiva - La Encina) is in an advanced stage of construction, so in a few years there will be HSR between Valencia, Alicante and Murcia, an important improvement for the Mediterranean corridor.

Don't forget Valencia - Castellón is being upgraded and Castellón - Vandellòs already has HSR features. The missing line Vandellòs - Camp de Tarragona is also almost finished. Therefore in a few years, probably in 2017 or 2018 we'll have HSR (or almost HSR) between the French border and Murcia, the situation is not as bad as some people think.

Then in my opinion all efforts should be put on building the new through tunnel in Valencia, as well as a proper HSL between Valencia and Castellón, leaving the current alignment for freight and commuter/regional trains. Finishing the missing parts of Murcia - Almería HSL is also important, but I believe that solving the bottleneck in Valencia should have more priority.


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## Suburbanist

They also need to link Almeria (and Alicante, Valencia etc) to Granada.


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## clickgr

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ You forget Albacete... Had the current Madrid - Alicante route not been followed, Albacete wouldn't have HSR. And you also forget Murcia, a city that will have HSR access thanks to a branch off Madrid - Alicante HSL currently under construction.
> 
> In any event, the missing link between Valencia and Alicante (Valencia - Xàtiva - La Encina) is in an advanced stage of construction, so in a few years there will be HSR between Valencia, Alicante and Murcia, an important improvement for the Mediterranean corridor.
> 
> Don't forget Valencia - Castellón is being upgraded and Castellón - Vandellòs already has HSR features. The missing line Vandellòs - Camp de Tarragona is also almost finished. Therefore in a few years, probably in 2017 or 2018 we'll have HSR (or almost HSR) between the French border and Murcia, the situation is not as bad as some people think.
> 
> Then in my opinion all efforts should be put on building the new through tunnel in Valencia, as well as a proper HSL between Valencia and Castellón, leaving the current alignment for freight and commuter/regional trains. Finishing the missing parts of Murcia - Almería HSL is also important, but I believe that solving the bottleneck in Valencia should have more priority.


No I am not forgetting Albacete. High Speed trains are for long distance connections, they do not have to pass through every small city, the same as not every small town needs to have an airport. The people from Albacete can still benefit from High speed services by taking a slow train to Cuenca and then connecting to the high speed train coming from Valencia.

As for Murcia to me would make more sense a Murica-Albacete line rather than an Alicante-Albacete and still Murcia can also be served by the Madrid-Valencia line and the Mediterranean corridor. 

But after all it is a matter of priorities. If there was unlimited amount of money all these lines and many more could built at the same time, but in the Spanish crisis area I think cities like Murica and Albacete can wait in order to built first more important lines like the Mediterranean corridor.


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## arctic_carlos

(Answering to Suburbanist) ^^ Theoretically yes, but that has few chances of ever becoming a reality, due to economic, demographic and geographic reasons. 

In the best scenario, I imagine the current Granada - Almería line will be wholly electrified and upgraded (not massively), but HSR there is almost 100% out of the question.


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## arctic_carlos

clickgr said:


> No I am not forgetting Albacete. High Speed trains are for long distance connections, they do not have to pass through every small city, the same as not every small town needs to have an airport. The people from Albacete can still benefit from High speed services by taking a slow train to Cuenca and then connecting to the high speed train coming from Valencia.
> 
> As for Murcia to me would make more sense a Murica-Albacete line rather than an Alicante-Albacete and still Murcia can also be served by the Madrid-Valencia line and the Mediterranean corridor.
> 
> But after all it is a matter of priorities. If there was unlimited amount of money all these lines and many more could built at the same time, but in the Spanish crisis area I think cities like Murica and Albacete can wait in order to built first more important lines like the Mediterranean corridor.



There was never a classic railway line between Albacete and Cuenca. Both cities had a railway connection for the first time in 2010 when the HSL was opened. And Albacete is not that small.

On the other hand, Murcia has traditionally fought for an Albacete - Murcia direct HSL, but the government decided to give more priority to Alicante - Murcia HSL, as it will be used both by Madrid - Murcia and Barcelona - Valencia - Murcia trains. 

However, the idea of Madrid - Valencia - Alicante - Murcia would be too much of a detour, trains would be faster using the classic line Madrid - Alcázar de San Juan - Albacete - Murcia.

In any event, most lines you mention were already in an advanced stage of planning or construction when the current economic crisis started. If it hadn't been for the crisis, these lines would have opened in 2012 or so, but after the opening of Madrid - Albacete / Valencia (2010), priority was given to Ourense - Santiago (2011), Barcelona - Figueres (2013) and Albacete - Alicante (2013).

After that, it has been the turn to Northern and Northwestern Spain (Valladolid - León and Olmedo junction - Zamora in 2015), where HSR is clearly underdeveloped if you compare it to Northeastern, Eastern and Southern Spain. Don't forget Madrid - Valladolid - Burgos - Vitoria, as well as the Basque Y, will be part of the important corridor Madrid - Bilbao and partially part of the freight connection between Portugal and France.

I mean, a connection Madrid - Bilbao via Zaragoza could have also been explored, and it's not a bad idea, but it would leave a considerable amount of cities out of the main HSR route. One of the functions of HSR in Spain is to better connect regions which have traditionally had awful connections with the rest of the country due to our geography, like Galicia, Asturias or, to a lesser extent, the Basque Country.


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## clickgr

Again as I said all these lines are useful and good to have, my objections is where to give the priority. Albacete is not that small but also can't compared to cities like Velencia, Bilbao, Zaragosa, Barcelona etc. which they need much more the high speed connections to each other. Plus those high speed services to big cities can be much more profitable when in operation and can help financially to build new high speed lines in second place to small cities like Albacete.

High speed trains are more comparable to the airplane than to the classic conventional trains. Most important is to serve big populations in big metropolitan areas for moving from point A to point B rather than passing through a considerable amount of cities. A Bilbao-Vitoria-Logrono-Zaragoza line in 2015 followed by a Madrid-Valladolid-Leon and a Madrid-Galicia line in 2020 can give much more than a Madrid-Valladolid-Leon and a Madrid-Zamora in 2015 followed by the Madrid-Burgos-Basque Y in 2020 or later.


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## alserrod

One advantage train has got over plane is that it can joins small-medium cities and plane will never. This is... it will be impossible to join Albacete (or Ciudad Real or Valladolid...) by plane with Madrid. We would remain buses and regional trains or so.

How many people use this service?. Really it will not deserve to make an own line but it deserves to call there because a lot of people will move from there. As said... not many people but no alternatives and short distances (thus more passengers)

And when we have a A-B-C line, the train will be fine if it is full from A to C... but if you do not sell all tickets... A-B + B-C sum up too.

About Madrid-Bilbao, it will be faster via Valladolid always. Nowadays a Madrid-Irun is a little faster via Calatayud (not entering in Zaragoza) than via Valladolid, and in summer, Malaga-Bilbao trains go via Zaragoza to avoid changing gauge several times. First year they made non-stop from Tudela to Calatayud but they preferred to call at Zaragoza. It would be 20 minutes more but the number of passenger from this station (even to Bilbao or to Malaga) worths a call even journey is longer.


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> One advantage train has got over plane is that it can joins small-medium cities and plane will never. This is... it will be impossible to join Albacete (or Ciudad Real or Valladolid...) by plane with Madrid. We would remain buses and regional trains or so.
> 
> How many people use this service?. Really it will not deserve to make an own line but it deserves to call there because a lot of people will move from there. As said... not many people but no alternatives and short distances (thus more passengers)
> 
> And when we have a A-B-C line, the train will be fine if it is full from A to C... but if you do not sell all tickets... A-B + B-C sum up too.
> 
> About Madrid-Bilbao, it will be faster via Valladolid always. Nowadays a Madrid-Irun is a little faster via Calatayud (not entering in Zaragoza) than via Valladolid, and in summer, Malaga-Bilbao trains go via Zaragoza to avoid changing gauge several times. First year they made non-stop from Tudela to Calatayud but they preferred to call at Zaragoza. It would be 20 minutes more but the number of passenger from this station (even to Bilbao or to Malaga) worths a call even journey is longer.


A *Madrid-Bilbao, via Valladolid* will serve the following metropolitan areas:

Madrid: 6.500.000
Segovia: 60.000
Valladolid: 400.000
Burgos: 200.000
Vitoria: 250.000
Bilbao: 1.000.000

Total: 8.410.000 (approximately) and most of the traffic will be between Madrid and Bilbao, the biggest and most industrialised areas.

A *Bilbao-Zaragoza* line will serve the following metropolitan areas:

Madrid: 6.500.000
Barcelona: 5.500.000
Bilbao: 1.000.000
Zaragoza: 800.000
Vitoria: 250.000
Logrono: 200.000

Total: 14.250.000 (approximately).

And the most important is the main traffic will not be just between Madrid and Bilbao but there will be considerable high traffic between Barcelona and Bilbao and between Zaragoza and Bilbao.

Even if the journey time between Madrid and Bilbao in the first case is a little bit shorter (not that much) the benefits in the second case are obvious! it is not that the line of the first case is not useful at all and should not be built but which of the two lines would you give the priority to build first?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ You are only talking about Madrid - Bilbao, but let's not forget that the common (and most expensive) stretch Madrid - Olmedo junction - (Valladolid) is also used by Madrid - Vigo, Madrid - Coruña, Madrid - Gijón, Madrid - Santander, Madrid - Irún and Madrid - Salamanca trains.

I mean, then you need to add the population of all these regions to your example if you add the populations of Madrid and Barcelona to the other one via Zaragoza.

And that's because all aforementioned trains have gradually been benefiting from the HSL Madrid - Valladolid since its opening in 2007, considerably reducing travel times thanks to Alvia services partially using the HSL even if HSR still doesn't reach the regions of the Northern coast.

That's the main benefit of HSR compared to planes, even if in Spain there's a gauge break, which now can be solved thanks to gauge changers.


In any event, I want again to remark the importance of HSR to both Málaga and Alicante (even if they're not among the biggest Spanish cities), as they're both very important coastal destinations for Madrid inhabitants. I mean, both cities have important metro areas and lots of HSR users, but you can't forget the importance of tourism for their economy, especially the thousands of tourists from Madrid who flee their city in August in order to go to the beach.

Each country has its own characteristics and it's really difficult to analyze the pros and cons of our HSR system without taking into account elements other than population figures (which are also important, of course).


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## Suburbanist

I was wondering... if they resumed the Sevilla-Granada HSR, and extended it to Almeria, would it be quicker to travel (when eveyrthing is complete in these corridors, hypothetically) from Valencia to Sevilla via Almería, or via Madrid (not exactly Madrid, but the junctions of both lines)


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> A *Madrid-Bilbao, via Valladolid* will serve the following metropolitan areas:
> 
> Madrid: 6.500.000
> Segovia: 60.000
> Valladolid: 400.000
> Burgos: 200.000
> Vitoria: 250.000
> Bilbao: 1.000.000
> 
> Total: 8.410.000 (approximately) and most of the traffic will be between Madrid and Bilbao, the biggest and most industrialised areas.
> 
> A *Bilbao-Zaragoza* line will serve the following metropolitan areas:
> 
> Madrid: 6.500.000
> Barcelona: 5.500.000
> Bilbao: 1.000.000
> Zaragoza: 800.000
> Vitoria: 250.000
> Logrono: 200.000
> 
> Total: 14.250.000 (approximately).
> 
> And the most important is the main traffic will not be just between Madrid and Bilbao but there will be considerable high traffic between Barcelona and Bilbao and between Zaragoza and Bilbao.
> 
> Even if the journey time between Madrid and Bilbao in the first case is a little bit shorter (not that much) the benefits in the second case are obvious! it is not that the line of the first case is not useful at all and should not be built but which of the two lines would you give the priority to build first?



Obviously, Zaragoza train station is a hub in the northeast. Whilst HSL between Zaragoza and anywhere in west is not built, several trains joins there with AVE Madrid-Barcelona. 

But surely, if the company can fill a train point to point, they will.

This is... if they want to reach Bilbao, they will do it towards the faster way.

Another issue is the possibility of other journeys, not point to point.

After building a tunnel (almost compulsory for joining a wide area) between Madrid and Segovia... easiest way is through Valladolid, obviously. Remember that, away from cities, construction costing in Spain is really cheap compared with other countries.


Nevertheless, have a glance to this page. Set Zaragoza and you will see next 24h flights.

(nowadays, only three ones, one right now, two for tomorrow. That's all!)

Guess the importance of the station then...

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/infovuelos/es/


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## clickgr

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ You are only talking about Madrid - Bilbao, but let's not forget that the common (and most expensive) stretch Madrid - Olmedo junction - (Valladolid) is also used by Madrid - Vigo, Madrid - Coruña, Madrid - Gijón, Madrid - Santander, Madrid - Irún and Madrid - Salamanca trains.
> 
> I mean, then you need to add the population of all these regions to your example if you add the populations of Madrid and Barcelona to the other one via Zaragoza.
> 
> And that's because all aforementioned trains have gradually been benefiting from the HSL Madrid - Valladolid since its opening in 2007, considerably reducing travel times thanks to Alvia services partially using the HSL even if HSR still doesn't reach the regions of the Northern coast.
> 
> That's the main benefit of HSR compared to planes, even if in Spain there's a gauge break, which now can be solved thanks to gauge changers.


I could say the same for routes like Tarragona-Bilbao, Lerida-Bilbao, Huesca-Bilbao plus many other cities in Aragon, Catalonia, Basque country, Navara and around that currently are not located on High speed rail paths but they can benefit from a Bilbao-Zaragoza line either with Alvia trains or with future new AVE spurs due to an easy access to this line (e.g. Pamplona, San Sebastian etc). Not to mention the traffic coming from the Spanish-French boarder... On purpose I didn´t mention them since I wanted to focus on the big industrial areas which I think have the most influence to the High speed rail traffic. 



arctic_carlos said:


> In any event, I want again to remark the importance of HSR to both Málaga and Alicante (even if they're not among the biggest Spanish cities), as they're both very important coastal destinations for Madrid inhabitants. I mean, both cities have important metro areas and lots of HSR users, but you can't forget the importance of tourism for their economy, especially the thousands of tourists from Madrid who flee their city in August in order to go to the beach.
> 
> Each country has its own characteristics and it's really difficult to analyze the pros and cons of our HSR system without taking into account elements other than population figures (which are also important, of course).


For Málaga I fully agree with you, since there was already the Madrid-Seville line it was the right decicion as a next step to connect Málaga directly with Madrid by using the same main axis. As for Alicante as I said the priority should have been the connection to Valencia and the extension of the Mediterranean corridor prior to a dedicated Alicante-Madrid line which at the end of the day for the city of Alicante and the tourist spots around is not making much difference compared to a route via Valencia.


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## alserrod

I think... in next century we do not expect to have a Bilbao-Huesca


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> I think... in next century we do not expect to have a Bilbao-Huesca


I meant the route Bilbao-Huesca via Zaragoza not a new line.


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## alserrod

Huesca has 50.000 people only. 

It would be enough to have a Bilbao-anywhere calling at Zaragoza and a good link to Huesca


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Nevertheless, have a glance to this page. Set Zaragoza and you will see next 24h flights.
> 
> (nowadays, only three ones, one right now, two for tomorrow. That's all!)
> 
> Guess the importance of the station then...
> 
> http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite/infovuelos/es/


Zaragoza is less than 2 hours away by AVE trains from both 2 country's biggest international airports, Barajas and El Prat. The biggest mistake so far is that they haven't built AVE stations right on those airports and the international traveler with destination Zaragoza depends on the city transport from the airports to the city's train stations. When they build such a stations (i think it is in the plans, at least for Barcelona) i do not think Zaragosa will need many flights.


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Huesca has 50.000 people only.
> 
> It would be enough to have a Bilbao-anywhere calling at Zaragoza and a good link to Huesca


Yes that is what I am saying.


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## Suburbanist

That Bilbao-Pamplona-Huesca line could make sense in a context of a Zaragoza-Huesca-Toulouse line.


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> Zaragoza is less than 2 hours away by AVE trains from both 2 country's biggest international airports, Barajas and El Prat. The biggest mistake so far is that they haven't built AVE stations right on those airports and the international traveler with destination Zaragoza depends on the city transport from the airports to the city's train stations. When they build such a stations (i think it is in the plans, at least for Barcelona) i do not think Zaragosa will need many flights.


And conversely... Zaragoza airport fees are really low and could be a cool low-cost airport.

And.... look at how easy had it been linking HSR with the airport

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.6453702,-1.0571412,5092m/data=!3m1!1e3

I think it was in 2009 when last direct flight to Madrid dissapeared after more than 50 years with a daily services (and several flights per year). One of last flights was just a Madrid-Zaragoza-Frankfurt (there was always a Zaragoza-Frankfurt and it departed from Madrid, therefore, several people took it... not to go to Madrid centre but to shuttle with another flight)


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## clickgr

Suburbanist said:


> That Bilbao-Pamplona-Huesca line could make sense in a context of a Zaragoza-Huesca-Toulouse line.


It is not only what makes sense, it is also how much will cost. A high speed line between Huesca and Pamplona will be extremely expensive due to the very mountenous terrain. It will be much better to invest on a modern electricified low speed rail Huesca-Jaca-Pamplona instead. 

The cost of a Huesca-Toulouse HSL is also very expensive but this is another story since the potential for trade and transportation for both Spain and France is very significant. Plus Zaragoza will get access to one more international airport, the Toulouse airport.


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> And conversely... Zaragoza airport fees are really low and could be a cool low-cost airport.
> 
> And.... look at how easy had it been linking HSR with the airport
> 
> https://www.google.es/maps/@41.6453702,-1.0571412,5092m/data=!3m1!1e3


Huesca also has an airport and with this logic maybe Huesca is even better option as a low-cost airport since it serves both Zaragoza and the tourist and ski destinations on the mountains of Aragon. However in reality never worked out this way.



alserrod said:


> I think it was in 2009 when last direct flight to Madrid dissapeared after more than 50 years with a daily services (and several flights per year). One of last flights was just a Madrid-Zaragoza-Frankfurt (there was always a Zaragoza-Frankfurt and it departed from Madrid, therefore, several people took it... not to go to Madrid centre but to shuttle with another flight)


Again if there were AVE connection right at Madrid airport all these issues will be solved for Zaragoza and any other city easily connected to Madrid by AVE trains.


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## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

*News!* :speech:

From February 1, 2016, all Alvia trains on the route between Madrid and Galicia will start using the HSL between the Olmedo junction and Zamora.
That day the Zamora gauge changer will start operating, after passing its tests.

Service will be doubled, from three services per direction plus one night train, to six plus one night train. 

One of them is a new Alvia service Santiago-Madrid and return. 
This train allows people living in Santiago de Compostela to spend the day in Madrid and return the evening for the first time.

The best travel times will go as follows:

*Madrid-Corunna* 5h 33min (from the current 6h 03min)

*Madrid-Ferrol via Santiago* 6h 49min (from the current 7h 36min)

*Madrid-Lugo* 6h 21min (from the current 6h 47min)

*Madrid-Ourense* 4h 17min (from the current 4h 40min)

*Madrid-Pontevedra* 6h 21min (from the current 6h 45min)

*Madrid-Santiago de Compostela* 5 h (from the current 5h 30min)

*Madrid-Vigo Guixar* 5h 49min (from the current 6h 12min)

Source: press release by *Renfe* (in Spanish)


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## 437.001

*Update | State of works.*

The level of execution in the works of new HSL's in Spain seems to have halted a bit lately.

Here's a list of lines and the state of works:

-*Zamora-Pedralba-Ourense* (Madrid-Galicia HSL). Works keep up, slowly. Won't open in two years at best. Probably won't open in one go, either.

-*Venta de Baños/Palencia-Burgos* (Madrid-Hendaye HSL). Works keep up, slowly. Won't open in 2016. Would probably open in 2017.

-*Valencia-Xativa-La Encina HSL*. Apparently halted, although very advanced since several years. 

-*Monforte del Cid-Elche-San Isidro HSL* and upgrade San Isidro-Orihuela-Murcia (Madrid-Alicante-Murcia HSL). Advancing, but slowing down. Won't open before the end of 2016 unless some change of priorities happens. Faces also nimby opposition in the city of Murcia (neighbours who want the line underground and nothing else).

-*Antequera Santa Ana-Granada HSL*. Advancing, but slowing down. Won't open before the end of 2016 unless some change of priorities happens.
Quite likely, this will be the next HSL to open, but this could change... or not.

-*Basque Y (Vitoria-Bilbao-San Sebastian)*. Advancing, but very slowly. Won't open in three years at best.

-*Murcia-Lorca-Almeria HSL*. Halted. Opening date unknown. Restart of works unknown. Not advanced.

-*Navalmoral-Caceres-Merida-Badajoz* (Madrid-Extremadura-Lisbon HSL). Halted? Not sure.

-*HSL connection Madrid Chamartín-Madrid Atocha-Torrejón de Velasco*. Advancing, but slowly. I don't think it will open in 2016.

-*Connection Camp de Tarragona-Vandellos* (Barcelona-Valencia line). Advancing, but slowly. I don't think it will open in 2016, at least not all of it?


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## Sunfuns

Basically not particularly likely that anything will open this year...

I was reading elsewhere that all tunnels on Galicia line except the new Padornelo bore have been either broken through already or will be in the next month or two.


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## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Basically not particularly likely that anything will open this year...


Could be. After the openings of the HSL's to Leon and Zamora, they have a bit more air to breathe, because they also need to buy new rolling stock, they have more and more of a shortage in that aspect.

The next openings, or the most advanced new sections, are the following (in this order, which could be altered, but not a lot):

-Antequera Santa Ana-Granada.
-Monforte del Cid-San Isidro (+ upgrade San Isidro-Orihuela-Murcia).
-Vandellos-Vilaseca-Camp de Tarragona (perhaps first Vandellos-Vilaseca, then the rest, or perhaps in just one go).
-Madrid Chamartín-Madrid Atocha-Torrejón de Velasco (without the underground platforms at Atocha). 
-Valencia-Xativa-La Encina.
-Venta de Baños/Palencia-Burgos.

Then the rest.



Sunfuns said:


> I was reading elsewhere that all tunnels on Galicia line except the new Padornelo bore have been either broken through already or will be in the next month or two.


Yes, they're putting most efforts on the missing parts of the Galicia HSL.

With the last new and upgraded sections (Santiago-Vigo, Olmedo-Zamora), travel times have been significantly cut, there are more services and more passengers.

But there's still a lot of room to grow in passengers between Galicia and the rest of the country, probably more than elsewhere, so that's why they're putting that amount of money on it. Besides, once the Galicia HSL completely open, a big sigh of relief will be heard (it's a massive investment).


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## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> -Antequera Santa Ana-Granada.


Will completion of this section allow Malaga-Granada services or only Cordoba/Madrid-Granada? I think the former would be massively popular with tourists from Central and Northern Europe. Malaga is the best connected airport in Andalusia and Alhambra is the best known place to see.


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## 437.001

clickgr said:


> Does this mean no more works are pending on this section?


Correct.



clickgr said:


> Is it classified now as HSR?


Yes and no. Faster trains can reach 200 km/h. But I wouldn't really call it a HSL, there are commuter trains in most of the line, too.



clickgr said:


> Are there AVE or Avant services already using this section?


No. Only Alvia (Long Distance, uses the Madrid-Seville HSL as it changes gauge), MD (regional) and Cercanías Seville and Cercanías Cadiz (commuter rail)



Robi_damian said:


> Is there a timeline for this line opening?


Antequera-Granada, Camp de Tarragona-Vandellos, and Monforte del Cid-San Isidro-Murcia should have been opened early this year. It's obvious it's not the case, this is mid-May 2016, and it will still take months.

Theoretically, the Burgos HSL should open by late 2016, but it can't be met as there's a tunnel that's taking too long because of some administrative issue. 2017 is rather likely, though.

The Granada and Murcia HSL's are the least advanced of the four by now, in either case because the works at Murcia and Granada stations have important delays. In the case of the Granada HSL, the upgrade of the classic line between Riofrio and Loja hasn't started yet, and that gets Granada people rather angry, as they've been left with nearly no railway service in Granada for more than a year.


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## Gusiluz

^^ The duplication works with some new bypass between Seville and Cadiz officially ended on October 1 last year. At least it's over like Valladolid-León and Olmedo-Zamora: a lack of ERTMS.

The maximum speed is 200 km/h in several tranches (75.9 km) with ASFA 200 and, in the future, with ERTMS to 220, but only in the stretch Utrera-Jerez.
The catenary is CR220 has customizable to 25 kV removing a thread.


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## Robi_damian

437.001 said:


> Theoretically, the Burgos HSL should open by late 2016, but it can't be met as there's a tunnel that's taking too long because of some administrative issue. 2017 is rather likely, though.


Good to know. I might have some Bilbao-Valladolid trips for work and it would be amazing to cut some time off the journey, plus it would be helpful if there were more than 2 daily services between Bilbao and Madrid. I think that a 04:30 service should be quite competitive.


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## Sunfuns

About Sevilla-Cadiz: given that the works are now complete can someone please summarise what are the improvements from passenger's point of view compared to five years ago.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Date of completion of each of the sections:




Seville-Cádiz travel time (153 km):

1990: 1 h 50 m
Since 1994: 1 h 30 m to 17/06/2012: 1 h 30 m
01/10/2015: 1 h 28 m
Announced in 2015: 1 h 18 m
Announced with ERTMS: 53 m (Although I do not think so)


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## Sunfuns

Gusiluz said:


> Seville-Cádiz travel time (153 km):
> 
> 1990: 1 h 50 m
> Since 1994: 1 h 30 m to 17/06/2012: 1 h 30 m
> 01/10/2015: 1 h 28 m
> [/FONT]*Announced in 2015: 1 h 18 m*
> Announced with ERTMS: 53 m (Although I do not think so)


Announced? What does that mean? I just checked Renfe website and the fastest connection I can find is 1 h 29 m for Alvia service. Most trains are MD and those are more like 1 h 40-45 m. So basically no improvement since 1994. Am I missing something here???


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## Gusiluz

^^ "Announced" means the Minister of Transport, "she said in the media".
Attention, in the same 2015.

She has never officially said: "the works it ended", because so many ignore it.

And no, you're not missing anything.


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## Sunfuns

So what was the point of spending all that money if there are no actual improvements in either travel time or frequency of trains (still very low)?


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## clickgr

Sunfuns said:


> So what was the point of spending all that money if there are no actual improvements in either travel time or frequency of trains (still very low)?


That's a very good question! 14 years of works and more than 700.000.000 euros spent according to the article to cut the journey time only by 2 minutes and still no AVE service on the line.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Basically it was a a single-tracked line and now it's 100% double-tracked, that's the main improvement, together with an increase of maximum speed wherever it was possible to do that (thanks to several sections of completely new alignment). In addition, some new stations have been built (Aeropuerto de Jerez, Bahía Sur, Lebrija and Las Cabezas de San Juan) and others have been put underground (Puerto Real, San Fernando, Segunda Aguada and Estadio). 

There hasn't been a big increase in the number of services, but that will soon happen. This will be the first summer since the works were finished, and additional Alvia services have already been announced. They could just be seasonal services but if they're successful maybe they could become regular services.

Regarding the lack of AVE services, that has to do with the different track gauges, as I previously explained. But I guess the biggest disappointment comes from the lack of a reduction in travel times. Besides the signaling, which still needs to be upgraded to ERTMS, I must say that this line has some special features: all Alvia services stop at the four biggest cities at the end of the line (Cádiz, San Fernando, El Puerto de Santa María and Jerez de la Frontera). The number of passengers each of these cities has is quite similar. So while travel times can be reduced in the future, the four consecutive stops mean that trains don't go very fast between Jerez de la Frontera and Cádiz (where Madrid - Cádiz Alvia services share tracks with frequent Jerez - Cádiz commuter services, in addition of Seville - Cádiz regional services).


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## Gusiluz

^^ Well, that's nothing compared to what will come when you start to run a Train-Tram to 100 km/h:
Tranvía Metropolitano Bahía de Cádiz

Anyway improved regularity and the line capacity has been remarkable.

Some renounces prefer the new HS lines and upgrade old ones, but in this case and the Mediterranean Corridor not think it's a good idea. Instead, it seemed to me well for the Atlantic Axis.


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Is Zaragoza Delizias among the top-5 stations in Spain when it comes to high speed passengers processed?


Today El Pais release a news with statistics about all high speed stations in last five years.

It is not complete IMO 'cos Alvia trains aren't added to the final sup. In addition, Leon, Zamora and Palencia lack on that list and Madrid-Chamartin, Segovia and Valladolid only AVE trains (not Alvia to Bilbao, Gijon or wherever....).

Trains like Barcelona-Vigo or Barcelona-Alicante aren't added to the final result too.... and obviously not regionals.


Other stations, like Pamplona that have four daily trains to Madrid and four to Barcelona aren't considered and so on.

With that list

Madrid-A 13,7
Barcelona-S 5,8
Sevilla 3,0
Zaragoza 2,3 
Valencia 2,1
Málaga 2,0
Córdoba 1,4
Alicante 1,0

in million passengers/year 2014


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## clickgr

2,3 milions is not a small number. However, the Delicias is the coldest train station I have ever seen, literally and metaphorically. Even though it has an interesting modern architecture inside there is nothing, no shops, no restaurants etc. to spend some time apart from one or two small cafes that overcharge your drink. And in the winter time it is freezing inside for most part of the building, you need to stay inside these ugly classy waiting rooms to get some heat. Outside the station there is also nothing.


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## Sunfuns

clickgr said:


> 2,3 milions is not a small number. However, the Delicias is the coldest train station I have ever seen, literally and metaphorically. Even though it has an interesting modern architecture inside there is nothing, no shops, no restaurants etc. to spend some time apart from one or two small cafes that overcharge your drink. And in the winter time it is freezing inside for most part of the building, you need to stay inside these ugly classy waiting rooms to get some heat. Outside the station there is also nothing.


I have to agree here, definitely not a success from architectural and usability point of view and connections to the city centre are poor. Still the best option for those wishing to travel to Madrid or Barcelona, though. The latter two cities have much nicer HSR stations...


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> 2,3 milions is not a small number. However, the Delicias is the coldest train station I have ever seen, literally and metaphorically. Even though it has an interesting modern architecture inside there is nothing, no shops, no restaurants etc. to spend some time apart from one or two small cafes that overcharge your drink. And in the winter time it is freezing inside for most part of the building, you need to stay inside these ugly classy waiting rooms to get some heat. Outside the station there is also nothing.




It is so cold and so nice as bad designed for passengers.

Local forumers wonder about more services there. 
At least, there is a bus station besides and both can share things like tourism office, rent a car and so on (not often for a bus station). 

Anyway, I would guess that most of passengers are local, thus no restaurant required (I have seen a hotel that would be re-opened again) and another shops.... Transfer passengers do not take more than 15 minutes or so, therefore, few minutes to have lunch. This is, it is not a hub airport or Atocha where you will shuttle to another train. In that station almost all passenger are from surroundings, go there, and just get the train.


And.... it is matter of opinion but what should it happen if better connection Valencia-Zaragoza?


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## Suburbanist

Better connection with Valencia = new /improved line cia Teruel?


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## Gusiluz

The article tells only passengers in AVE trains, Coruña and Orense not even appear.
For example, in 2014 Chamartin 3.244.833 had long-distance travelers (OFE page 66), Segovia had 779,571 travelers on Avant and 37.778 on Alvia only to Madrid, Toledo had 1,259,400 in Avant (page 106).
This is what happens when data is read without knowing the subject.hno:

By the way, the sum is 35,129,000 (the total of "up and down"), which are 17,564,500 travelers, Total AVE passengers according Fomento and OFE in 2014 it was 17,966,950 so do not coincide, and the difference is no less than 402,450 travelers. :nuts:

Complete list:
2014 (passengers up and down in AVE):
Atocha 13,688,800 + 14%
Ciudad Real 221,600 + 15%
Puertollano 78,200 + 18%
Córdoba 1,391,000 + 10%
Sevilla 3,047,300 + 8%
Guadalajara 67,100 + 1%
Calatayud 80,600 + 1%
Zaragoza 2,378,500 + 10%
Tardienta 800 -11%
Huesca 72,400 + 9%
Lleida 488 700 + 10%
Toledo 222,500 in 2011: 2,200
Camp de Tarragona 504,500 + 4%
Puente Genil-Herrera 50,400 + 21%
Antequera-Santa Ana 136,300 + 32%
Chamartin 146,100 + 87%
Segovia Guiomar 10.200 + 10.100%
Valladolid 141,500 + 81%
Málaga 2,065,100 + 7%
Barcelona-Sants 5,817,000 + 34%
Cuenca 258,400 + 29%
Albacete 299,700 + 66%
Requena-Utiel 14,300 -9%
Valencia 2150300 + 9%
Girona 468 800 + 167%
Figueres 245,700 + 104%
Villena 51,700 + 97%
Alicante 1,014,700 + 81%
Villanueva de Córdoba Pedroches 16,800 first-year


Worst of all is that it has been necessary to sue the ministry to get the data.


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## arctic_carlos

Sunfuns said:


> I have to agree here, definitely not a success from architectural and usability point of view and connections to the city centre are poor. Still the best option for those wishing to travel to Madrid or Barcelona, though. The latter two cities have much nicer HSR stations...


Madrid-Atocha is a wonderful station, but Barcelona-Sants is not nice at all... It was built in the early 80s as the new central station of the city and it properly fulfilled its task for 20 years. However, since the Madrid - Barcelona HSL was finally completed in 2008, the station has been suffering from congestion, as it wasn't expanded accordingly. 

There were plans to double the size of the station hall once the tracks had been refurbished for HSR, but then the financial crisis started and nothing has been done. To make matters worse, the construction of Barcelona-Sagrera station, which should alleviate the congestion of Barcelona-Sants, is very delayed and it won't become a reality before 2020, at least.



Suburbanist said:


> Better connection with Valencia = new /improved line cia Teruel?


Maybe in the long term. But starting next year it'll be possible to do Zaragoza - Valencia via the new chord which is being built in the area of Tarragona between the Madrid - Barcelona HSL and Vandellòs - Camp de Tarragona new line. It's here: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.1969234,1.229025,2345m/data=!3m1!1e3

Thanks to that new chord, travel times from Zaragoza to Valencia could be reduced from 5 hours to 3 hours, which is very significant and could boost the number of passengers on that route.



Gusiluz said:


> 2014 (passengers up and down in AVE):
> Lleida 488 700 + 10%
> Camp de Tarragona 504,500 + 4%
> Barcelona-Sants 5,817,000 + 34%
> Girona 468 800 + 167%
> Figueres 245,700 + 104%


The figures of the Catalan stations are quite surprising to me: Camp de Tarragona station manages to get more AVE passengers than Lleida or Girona even though the former is a station in the middle of the fields 10 km from the city centre and the other two stations are located in the city centres.


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## Sunfuns

arctic_carlos said:


> Madrid-Atocha is a wonderful station, but Barcelona-Sants is not nice at all... It was built in the early 80s as the new central station of the city and it properly fulfilled its task for 20 years. However, since the Madrid - Barcelona HSL was finally completed in 2008, the station has been suffering from congestion, as it wasn't expanded accordingly.
> 
> There were plans to double the size of the station hall once the tracks had been refurbished for HSR, but then the financial crisis started and nothing has been done. To make matters worse, the construction of Barcelona-Sagrera station, which should alleviate the congestion of Barcelona-Sants, is very delayed and it won't become a reality before 2020, at least.


I agree that Atocha is nicer than Sants but Zaragoza Delicias (you've been there, right?) is I think even lower on the totem pole...


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## arctic_carlos

^^ I've never used Zaragoza-Delicias station, I've only seen it from inside the train, but I've read lots of reports of its users complaining about its many flaws, so I'm aware of the many problems it causes to passengers, especially during the winter.

However, architecturally speaking Zaragoza-Delicias looks better than Barcelona-Sants, and as it's a new station purposely built for the services it handles, it doesn't have the congestion problems of the latter.


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## clickgr

^^All these calls at Tardienta for train connections and crossing made sense before the high-speed line was built. Now with the double track high-speed line there is no need for crossing point and the connections can easily be done at Huesca station.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ There's indeed a need for a crossing point because the HSL between Zaragoza-Miraflores and Tardienta was built with just a single standard gauge track (next to the single Iberian gauge track of the classic line).

But the real "bottleneck" (if we can employ this term for a line with that low number of trains) is between Tardienta and Huesca, as they didn't even built a specific track for high speed trains; they just added a third rail in standard gauge to the existing single Iberian gauge track so as to allow AVE services reaching Huesca.

Maybe you thought the Zaragoza - Huesca HSL had double track, at least between Zaragoza and Tardienta, but there are actually two single tracks (one in each gauge). Hopefully, when Spain starts regauging its rail network, Zaragoza - Tardienta will become a normal double-tracked line.


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> ^^All these calls at Tardienta for train connections and crossing made sense before the high-speed line was built. Now with the double track high-speed line there is no need for crossing point and the connections can easily be done at Huesca station.


It is simple track only.
At Tardienta they must decrease to 30 km/h.
Nothing would happen if no call (or a new traject avoiding this village) but surely it doesn't delay trains.

Investments were null. Station ex usted, just changed gauge in one platform


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## clickgr

arctic_carlos said:


> Maybe you thought the Zaragoza - Huesca HSL had double track, at least between Zaragoza and Tardienta, but there are actually two single tracks (one in each gauge). Hopefully, when Spain starts regauging its rail network, Zaragoza - Tardienta will become a normal double-tracked line.


Yes that's what I thought since I see two parallel lines between Zaragoza - Tardienta. I didn't know the one was Iberian gauge. Thanks. But still with such a few AVE schedules between Zaragoza and Huesca there is no need for crossing at Tardienta. They can just be scheduled in different times.



alserrod said:


> It is simple track only.
> At Tardienta they must decrease to 30 km/h.
> Nothing would happen if no call (or a new traject avoiding this village) but surely it doesn't delay trains.
> 
> Investments were null. Station ex usted, just changed gauge in one platform


I know. It is such annoying when coming from Madrid you travel such a long distance up to Zaragoza in less than 1h 30min, and then you need close to an hour to reach Huesca due to these stops and the 30 km/h speed!


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> Yes that's what I thought since I see two parallel lines between Zaragoza - Tardienta. I didn't know the one was Iberian gauge. Thanks. But still with such a few AVE schedules between Zaragoza and Huesca there is no need for crossing at Tardienta. They can just be scheduled in different times.



Not so easy.

Huesca-Madrid departs at 8:15 (almost all time has had same time departing from Huesca to reach 9:00 from Zaragoza. Conversely it has shifted several times from Madrid but it is a long time it departs at 19:05).

First train departing from Zaragoza to Huesca arrives before 8:15 and second one quite, quite later. 
At first, there were three Avant trains on international gauge Zaragoza-Huesca and schedules were ready to cross at Tardienta. One minute delay of any of both trains, delay for the other one.

In addition, at Tardienta we may consider three regional trains coming from Lerida too, later freight trains that run only on day, not on night..... and it is not easy.

Infrastructure is so poor that I made a proposal for trains Zaragoza-Canfranc and only six daily trains could run. On weekends we have three regional trains and a freight one can run. Then.... a so long line and lack of capacity.

There was a special train last summer and it crossed with a Canfranc-Zaragoza at La Peña, being the first time two trains crossed there and having to move an agent for that cross hno:hno:hno:


One more hint.... Huesca-Madrid train, as rules says, is the only AVE that will depart only after station manager use his flag and whistle!!!!!!!!!! 

It is not necessary to use depending on traffic software (not installed there) and in first departure station would be mandatory. This is why at Tardienta it is different..... but everyday (twice on weekends) AVE's depart from Huesca after driver listen the whistle!!!!


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## Robi_damian

^^ The point is more of "why did anyone think to buid an AVE line to Huesca to begin with?". Was it really worth it. I think a connecting service at Delicias on the classical line, operated by a short EMU would have been enough. I imagine it did not particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things, but surely even that money would have been better used to speed up a more useful route like VdB-Burgos.


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## alserrod

It is matter of opinion. The same reason about why trains to Zaragoza and Barcelona departs from Atocha and not from Chamartin with a call in the airport and a link to commuter near Guadalajara, riding near R-2 motorway.

It would be a little more expensive and would require to join Seville and Barcelona lines but will have avoided a tunnel under Madrid.

This is same situation than in Paris.


Both "mistakes" or decissions were taken at same time.


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## clickgr

Robi_damian said:


> ^^ The point is more of "why did anyone think to buid an AVE line to Huesca to begin with?". Was it really worth it. I think a connecting service at Delicias on the classical line, operated by a short EMU would have been enough. I imagine it did not particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things, but surely even that money would have been better used to speed up a more useful route like VdB-Burgos.


For many reasons. At the time Spain started to design its brand new HSR network back in the late 80's it was not yet defined whether the first connection with the French high speed network would be in Catalonia via the Mediteranian Corridor or in Aragon via the Trans-Pyrenean Central Corridor. Both axes had to be developed and prepared for potential further connections, the decision for the Mediteranian Corridor was taken years later.

Another reason is that although Huesca is a small city, it serves as a capital of a relatively big Province with many smaller cities and towns around and with significant agricultural production. The Province of Huesca is also a popular tourist destination especially at the side of the Pyrenees mountains with many crowded ski resorts during the winter time, many hotels and spa resorts and other traditional mountain villages, castles etc.

Another reason is the city of Jaca for many years was meant by the Spanish government to host the winter Olympic Games at some point, so any infrastructure towards there would be an added value for the biding process.

Of course local politicians always influence in decisions like this especially in one of the richest autonomous regions in Spain like Aragon.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ I'm afraid the Zaragoza - Huesca HSL was more a political concession to the province than a real strategic decision. At the time the line was planned it was clear the connection with France was going to be built via Barcelona. That's why the Zaragoza - Tardienta HSL was built as a single track spur off the main Madrid - Barcelona - France HSL, limited to 200 km/h. Had it been planned as a future international connection, it would have been built with other technical standards.

Besides, the scarce number of services using the line is good evidence of the lack of demand for AVE services Huesca has. It would have been wiser and cheaper to build a gauge changer in Zaragoza-Miraflores station for Alvia services Madrid - Huesca - (Jaca) instead of building a dedicated track between Zaragoza and Huesca and adding the third rail between Tardienta and Huesca.


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## clickgr

^^ As you can see here, even until 2012 it was still not very clear which corridor will be given priority to.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ The only thing I can say is that the HSL between Barcelona and the French border opened in 2013, while the border crossing itself (Figueras - Perpignan international line) opened in 2010, both for passenger and freight trains.

This article you link (besides being politically biased) talks about a completely different thing: the need to select a corridor to receive EU funding for international freight transport. The main problem is that Spanish websites and newspapers often don't know about the subject and make a mess when trying to explain it. On top of that, Catalan politicians tried to make a political argument about the lack of investments in the Mediterranean Corridor by the Spanish government, forgetting that its international standard gauge HSR connection was up and running while nothing had been done on the other possible corridors.

Of course there are still many investments to be made in the Mediterranean corridor south of Barcelona to extend standard gauge and promote freight rail, but the reality is tjat currently the port of Barcelona is the only Spanish port with standard gauge rail access, since 2010.

But that's slightly off topic here.


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## clickgr

As it is now an Alvia service connecting Zaragoza with Huesca with no intermediate stops would make much more sense than the AVE service to Huesca moving with speeds of 30 km/h near Tardienta. I think the decision to put the AVE at first place to the Zaragoza-Huesca route was clearly political. However, the investment on a new line in international gauge had also a strategic aspect for the future plans on network expansion. The Tardienta station and the use of the existing path between Tardienta and Huesca was a temporary solution to quickly allow the AVE reaching Huesca. A temporary solution which ended up to become permanent.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ The use of the classic line between Tardienta and Huesca was also meant to be a test for mixed gauge technology in Spain. That technology hadn't previously been used in any commercial line, just in test lines.

In addition, there's another important technical reason why a gauge changer was not built in Zaragoza for possible Madrid - Huesca Alvia services. At the time it was decided that AVE had to reach Huesca (early 2000s), Alvia services didn't exist. Until 2006, when the technology used by Alvia trains to change gauge in a few minutes was introduced, Altaria trains which had to change gauge took around 20 minutes to do the whole process, as they also had to change engine. Moreover, Altaria services are limited to 200 km/h in HSL, while Alvia can reach 250 km/h.

I mean, the current travel times of AVE services Madrid - Huesca (300 km/h between Madrid and Zaragoza, 200 km/h between Zaragoza and Tardienta, 160 km/h between Tardienta and Huesca) wouldn't be considerably increased if an Alvia service existed instead. But the difference of travel times between an Altaria and an AVE service between Madrid and Huesca would be indeed considerable. At least 35-40 minutes more. So I guess this technical reason had to do with the political decision of building something similar to a standard gauge HSL.


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## alserrod

Have a look here, please

https://www.google.es/maps/@42.1267077,-0.411905,71m/data=!3m1!1e3

Before HSL, there was a daily Madrid-Jaca.
When HSL opened, they closed this train and set up a daily Madrid-Huesca (later another one on weekends) and a Zaragoza-Jaca with the same calls than former Madrid-Jaca. It linked at Zaragoza with AVEs to/from Madrid (but to Madrid, 45 minutes waiting so not many saving time and much expensive from Jaca....)

Schedules changed, and nowadays Renfe offers you an assured connection Madrid-Jaca BY BUS!!!!!!!!. Instead of using their own trains (AVE+regional) they offer AVE + a bus from another company at Zaragoza!!!!!!


The point in the google image was a gauge changer. Zaragoza-Jaca regional train run over the HSL, later changed gauge (100 euro for the company every time it changed) and continued to Jaca (not to Canfranc, even if it is the most used station due to lack of direct buses to Zaragoza or Huesca). One or two years later they used only classic line and changer wasn't longer used any more!!.

If only they have had an assured link at Zaragoza and sold twin tickets Jaca-Zaragoza-Madrid or so, it could have more passengers.... but schedules were awful just for a Zaragoza-Jaca, the times with less demand!!!!.



I strongly agree that any solution avoiding Tardienta in the north side and two single tracks to Huesca would be the best solution.


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## clickgr

Since they decided to build international gauge line to Huesca, they should have done it the proper way, all the way straight line to Huesca, no stops, no deviations to pass through other existing stations. Otherwise there is no point to have high speed trains if it takes as long as the normal trains to get you there. Such a line doesn't necessarily need to be served by AVE, local trains from Huesca could simply offer regular and fast connections with the AVE Madrid-Barcelona schedules at Zaragoza Delicias. I am sure if the Huesca-Zaragoza line were more efficient in that way it would also had more traffic than it has now, with or without AVE service.

For example, many times while I am in Huesca I need to go to Zaragoza and come back to do some shopping on the same day. I never remember myself taking the train, I always take the car. The train is not much faster than the car and the schedules do not help to move easily between Huesca and Zaragoza. For those coming from Jaca or Monzon moving by train to Zaragoza I guess is even more complicated. If you could reach Zaragoza within 30 min with schedules let's say every 2-3 hours things would be very different in this route.


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## alserrod

I agree with you. Just only one hint..... trains on classic line can call at Goya station that gives a lot of opportunities. Bus doesn't (it calls near Portillo but never so close). High speed trains, even Avant only can at Delicias. That was why they decided to replace Avant for Regional ones. Centre to centre was same time.


From Monzon before HSL, all long distance trains hadn't any call or maybe only at Tardienta, weren't very expensive and took only one hour to Zaragoza-Portillo. Faster than by car due to no motorway, needed to go to Huesca and come back....
Jaca is another issue.

By the way, remember you have a good bus service Huesca-Zaragoza between same stations. If you do not fin a link via railway, try with bus. You will not wait so much.


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## arctic_carlos

*Antequera-Santa Ana - Granada HSL*:

Works are very advanced between Antequera-Santa Ana and Archidona, as well as between Tocón and Granada. 

Construction of a new station building in Granada is also starting to take shape, together with the refurbishment of the existing tracks to make room for new standard gauge tracks to be used by HSR. 

However, works remain suspended in Loja until an agreement is reached between the contractor of the works and the government.

Map of the line (showing status of each section in 2011):










Source: http://www.ferropedia.es/wiki/LAV_Antequera_-_Granada

Pictures from the section between Antequera-Santa Ana and Archidona:



> Source: http://loja.ideal.es/loja/noticias/201607/31/circula-primer-tren-granada-20160730011935-v.html


Between Tocón and Granada:



Granaino202 said:


> Algunas imagenes de lo que os comentaba el otro día en Atarfe la catenaria ya puesta:
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Granada station:



Granaino202 said:


> ^^ Eso no es ninguna novedad ya...jeje, sabemos que la linea va a estar cortada hasta que no terminen las obras y las obras están paradas en Loja para empezar... asique es interminable.
> 
> Sin embargo en la estación de Granada va la cosa viento en popa, están empezando a poner la estructura de la terminal nueva...
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## Sunfuns

Advanced, but still a long way off judging by some of those pictures... I'm also wondering what exactly is being built in those Granada station pictures with those concrete constructions.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ In the first picture you can see the new station building, which is being built at the end of the platforms. It will be built quite fast, as it's a cheap construction, given that Granada is supposed to get a brand-new underground train station someday (probably never). A new tram stop has been built just behind where the picture has been taken, so transfers between rail and tram will be very easy.

In the second picture you can see the foundations of the poles of the overhead electric lines.


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## Sunfuns

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ In the first picture you can see the new station building, which is being build at the end of the platforms. It will be built quite fast, as it's a cheap construction, given that Granada is supposed to get a brand-new underground train station someday (*probably never*).


I don't think it matters much or is really needed. This station will not be a through station anyway nor are the traffic levels expected to be epic. More important is that the eventual traffic timetable is well planed and with enough services. Actually wasn't it possible to just renovate the old station building? The white structure in photo's right? 



arctic_carlos said:


> A new tram stop has been built just behind where the picture has been taken, so transfers between rail and tram will be very easy.


That's really good and something that is missing in Sevilla albeit I hear there are some plans to rectify it there. Also the station itself is in a good location close to the old town and all the tourist attractions, but also easily accessible by road. Train traffic there could be a real success if people in charge are not stupid...

By the way is there a planed or existing suburban train network in Granada? Judging from a map looks unlikely...


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## arctic_carlos

Sunfuns said:


> I don't think it matters much or is really needed. This station will not be a through station anyway nor are the traffic levels expected to be epic. More important is that the eventual traffic timetable is well planed and with enough services. Actually wasn't it possible to just renovate the old station building? The white structure in photo's right?


I don't think an underground station in Granada is necessary, actually I think it would be a waste of money given the location of the station in the urban structure of the city, where railway doesn't represent a barrier at all. If any, a couple of new underpasses for pedestrians and cars can be added at some points, but that's all what is necessary nowadays. It's just another example of the stupid railways-need-to-be-underground-everywhere fever that has been devastating Spain in the last few decades.

However, the old building is not prepared to handle the expected levels of traffic with the opening of the HSL. They're not going to be epic, I agree, but the old building is way too small. IMHO, Granada will get a reasonably sized station given its size and importance. Neither a huge and empty white elephant like Zaragoza Delicias nor a crappy small provisional station like León. Here you can see how everything will look like once the works are completed (where it says "metro" it should say tram, but you know how politicians are):



> http://www.ideal.es/granada/20140408/local/granada/nueva-estacion-granada-cambiara-201404080041.html





Sunfuns said:


> That's really good and something that is missing in Sevilla albeit I hear there are some plans to rectify it there. Also the station itself is in a good location close to the old town and all the tourist attractions, but also easily accessible by road. Train traffic there could be a real success if people in charge are not stupid...


Yes, fortunately the current mayor of Sevilla wants the tram line to be extended to Santa Justa station, the main railway hub of the city. Let's see if he's able to defeat nimbysm.



Sunfuns said:


> By the way is there a planed or existing suburban train network in Granada? Judging from a map looks unlikely...


No, there are just regional rail services towards Almería, Sevilla and Algeciras that don't stop in any town near Granada because most existing stations were closed long time ago or simply were never built at the right places. It's quite sad because there are at least four towns (Pinos Puente, Atarfe, Maracena and Albolote) which could have benefited from commuter rail services, but I guess the bus lobby was too strong in the area. Besides, the rail network is really poor, just two single-tracked non-electrified lines covering a small part of the metropolitan area of Granada.

In fact, Granada is one of the few Spanish "important" cities where rail so far hasn't played any role in its urban transportation system. Fortunately, that will drastically change once the tram (or metro-tram/premetro, as you wish to call it) opens later this year or early next year.


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## MarcVD

Is the regional service Granada-Antequera-Ronda-Algeciras going to remain
once this new high-speed line will be in operation ? If yes, which equipment ?
It was still old DMUs when I used it a few years ago...


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Good question. Unfortunately nothing has been officially announced yet regarding the future of these services.

The only related information we currently have is the announcement of the construction of an Iberian gauge track in the new Antequera underground station (the one in the city itself, not Antequera-Santa Ana station on the HSL Madrid - Málaga). However, that track will only be connected to the Iberian gauge line towards Málaga, Algeciras and Sevilla, which could probably mean that the current classic line between Antequera and Granada is to be closed once the HSL Antequera - Granada opens (the only intermediate station, Loja, is to be also served by the HSL).

Consequently, Granada - Algeciras regional services will then need a change of trains in Antequera station: using electric standard gauge units between Granada and Antequera and the old Iberian gauge diesel units between Antequera and Algeciras.

As for the rest of regional services, it's likely that new Avant regional services (on the HSL) will be implemented between Granada and Málaga (calling at Loja and the new Antequera station) and between Granada and Sevilla (via Córdoba). Regarding Sevilla - Granada - Almería services, it will finally depend on whether gauge changer facilities are built in Granada station (also for Madrid - Almería services). If they're not built, then a change of trains in Granada will probably be necessary to go from Sevilla to Almería.

In any event, as nothing has been officially announced, we can only assume which services are going to be implemented based on how the infrastructure will finally look like. That is to say, we can already discard the services that will be impossible to run once the current works are finished, and which ones could be possible to establish, but that's all.


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## Sunfuns

arctic_carlos said:


> which could probably mean that the current classic line between Antequera and Granada is to be closed once the HSL Antequera - Granada opens (the only intermediate station, Loja, is to be also served by the HSL).
> 
> Consequently, Granada - Algeciras regional services will then need a change of trains in Antequera station: using electric standard gauge units between Granada and Antequera and the old Iberian gauge diesel units between Antequera and Algeciras.


I don't often say that, but in this case it makes perfect sense to close that stretch. It would save money on maintenance, there would be no loss of stations and the total speed of Granada-Algeciras service via a combination of Avant and old DMU's would probably be as fast or even faster than old DMU's alone.


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## arctic_carlos

*HSL Monforte del Cid - Murcia*

Update on the HSL Monforte del Cid (on the Madrid - Alicante HSL) - Murcia. Pictures taken between the stations of Beniel and San Isidro. As you can see, this is a project where HSR and classic rail will share the same alignment. The classic line was supposed to be regauged to standard gauge between Murcia and Alicante (as well as electrified and rerouted through Alicante airport). However, the project of regauging and electrification between San Isidro and Alicante is so delayed (works haven't started yet) that the HSL will be provisionally operated between San Isidro and Murcia with a double single track (one in standard gauge for HSR and the other one in Iberian gauge for commuter and regional rail services).



mapesi said:


> Hola a todos.
> 
> Nuevas fotos con pocas novedades del trazado de ÁV entre Murcia y San Isidro.
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> Playa de vías ancho 1435 y 1668 ya montada en la estación de Beniel.
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> Escapes de seguridad de la estación de Beniel lado Alicante. El de la izquierda más antiguo con topes, y el de la derecha más moderno, con bancada de arena.
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> Montaje de desvíos en la estación de Orihuela, lado Murcia prácticamente terminado y lado Alicante en fase de montaje.
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> Vías ancho 1668 a la izquierda, y 1435 a la derecha, ya perfectamente niveladas a la salida de Orihuela, lado Alicante. La rampa como se puede apreciar, importante.
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> Via general "lado mar" del trazado de alta velocidad interceptado en la estación de San Isidro por la actual vía de cruce de ancho 1668, qué debe ser desmontada.
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> Espacio habilitado, según proyecto, luego ya veremos si se hace o no, para establecer una vía de cruce sin andén a continuación del andén actual de la estación de San Isidro, que quedaría con una sola vía.
> 
> Un saludo.
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=134712544&postcount=9520


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## arctic_carlos

*HSL Olmedo - Zamora - Ourense - Santiago de Compostela*

Update on *Medina del Campo AV* station on the HSL Olmedo - Zamora - Ourense - Santiago de Compostela (aka Madrid - Galicia HSL). This station opened last year together with the rest of the HSL between Olmedo junction and Zamora (station location: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.2905368,-4.9243725,772m/data=!3m1!1e3).

However, the station building is still unfinished, so just a reduced service can be offered, involving a bus transfer for passengers from Medina del Campo station on the Madrid - Hendaye classic line to the provisional facilities that were built next to the new HSR station.

Besides, as the double track between Olmedo junction on the Madrid - Valladolid HSL and Medina del Campo HSR station is not in service yet (the second track is already installed but not linked to the first one at Olmedo junction), in these pictures you can see two Alvia trains (the first one bound for Madrid, the second one bound for Lugo) crossing at the station. These services are operated with hybrid (diesel/electric) and mixed gauge class 730 units, and use standard gauge HSR between Madrid and Zamora, where they change to Iberian gauge and diesel traction to continue towards Galicia.




elburgo said:


> El edificio de la estación, este jueves:
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> Seguimos con vía única Olmedo-Medina.
> 
> En la imagen "tren esperador". Es el Ferrol-Coruña-Madrid. El primero de 2. Solo 2 diarios Ferrol-Coruña-Madrid. No realiza paradas entre Zamora y Madrid. Por cierto, es el número 23 de los 730. Recién salido de la transformación de un 130.
> ¿Y que hace ahí parado en la vía 1 pasante (sin andén) de la estación de Medina?
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> Pues gracias a la vía única tiene que esperar la llegada del Madrid-Lugo que no sé porqué, cosas, casi siempre llega majestuoso, pero tarde, claro.
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> Este tiene parada, de momento en el anden izquierdo, hacia Madrid:
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> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=135284111&postcount=10138


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## arctic_carlos

*HSL Madrid - Badajoz - (Lisbon)*

Almonte viaduct on the HSL between Madrid and Badajoz is almost completed:



neuromancer said:


> A punto de concluir el tablero del viaducto de Almonte.
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> @adif
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=135664702&postcount=3042


So far there are only works on this HSL between Plasencia and Badajoz, both in the Spanish region of Extremadura. In the short term, the sections of the HSL which are currently under construction will enter into service, but just with a non-electrified single track in Iberian gauge.

It's not clear yet what will happen with the section between Madrid and Plasencia, maybe the planned HSL won't be built and the current line will be upgraded instead. The continuation of the line towards Lisbon depends, of course, on the Portuguese government. Probably a half-profile line will be built between Évora and Elvas, thus enabling Madrid - Lisbon services to use the HSL between Plasencia and Badajoz, even though the rest of the HSL is not built.


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## Robi_damian

arctic_carlos said:


> Almonte viaduct on the HSL between Madrid and Badajoz is almost completed:
> 
> 
> 
> So far there are only works on this HSL between Plasencia and Badajoz, both in the Spanish region of Extremadura. In the short term, the sections of the HSL which are currently under construction will enter into service, but just with a non-electrified single track in Iberian gauge.
> 
> It's not clear yet what will happen with the section between Madrid and Plasencia, maybe the planned HSL won't be built and the current line will be upgraded instead. The continuation of the line towards Lisbon depends, of course, on the Portuguese government. Probably a half-profile line will be built between Évora and Elvas, thus enabling Madrid - Lisbon services to use the HSL between Plasencia and Badajoz, even though the rest of the HSL is not built.


So this will be the first HSL with Iberian gauge?

Will the speed of use even be that high? AFAIK Spain does not own diesel HSR trains (actually, barely any country does, maybe the ICE T qualifies).


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## Suburbanist

I'm against this. They should use gauge-changer instead at both ends of the new high-speed line, and electrify it!


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## Sunfuns

Robi_damian said:


> So this will be the first HSL with Iberian gauge?
> 
> Will the speed of use even be that high? AFAIK Spain does not own diesel HSR trains (actually, barely any country does, maybe the ICE T qualifies).


I think it'll be 200 km/h in the current arrangement. There ought to be trains which could do that...

I've just read that Spain will have a conservative led coalition government after all. Without going into any political discussion is that good or bad for further funding of railways including but not only finishing the HSR network?


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## Sunfuns

Suburbanist said:


> I'm against this. They should use gauge-changer instead at both ends of the new high-speed line, and electrify it!


You are always against practical solutions everywhere... :lol:


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I'm against this. They should use gauge-changer instead at both ends of the new high-speed line, and electrify it!


There is a 100 euro fee or so for every gauge-changer. Providing a train with 100 passengers as average, 2 euro plus and you will spend more time.

If you prepare tracks for both gauges, the day you will need it, it is enought 7-15 days to prepare the full line without changers.


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## arctic_carlos

Robi_damian said:


> So this will be the first HSL with Iberian gauge?


No. Ourense - Santiago de Compostela (300 km/h) also has Iberian gauge. However, there are neither Iberian gauge trains nor dual gauge trains capable of reaching that speed, so until its gauge is changed when Zamora - Ourense is completed (2020?), it has a real maximum speed of 250 km/h.

And then we have A Coruña - Santiago de Compostela - Vigo, which is an upgraded classic line with speeds up to 250 km/h. It also has Iberian gauge, as its gauge change will depend on the gauge change of Ourense - Santiago de Compostela. 



Robi_damian said:


> Will the speed of use even be that high? AFAIK Spain does not own diesel HSR trains (actually, barely any country does, maybe the ICE T qualifies).


We have hybrid (diesel / electric (25 kV and 3 kV)) dual gauge trains (class 730). They're currenty used on services between Madrid and Galicia (A Coruña, Ferrol, Lugo and Pontevedra). Under electric traction they can reach 220 km/h (3 kV) and 250 km/h (25 kV); under diesel traction they can reach 180 km/h, though.

In any event, given that line will only have Iberian gauge until a connection with the standard gauge network is built near Madrid, it wouldn't make sense to use dual gauge trains there, which could be better used in services which require a gauge change.



Suburbanist said:


> I'm against this. They should use gauge-changer instead at both ends of the new high-speed line, and electrify it!


I could agree with you regarding the electrification of the line. But as it would be an isolated electrified line, it's maybe better to wait at least until the Portuguese government builds a new single-tracked electrified line between Évora and Elvas, as then it would have an electrified connection on the Portuguese side of the border.

It doesn't make sense in my opinion to build gauge-changers in Plasencia and Badajoz. Every time a Renfe train uses one of these facilities, it must pay a fare to the infrastructure owner (Adif), so it increases the price of train tickets. In many cases they're justified (Madrid - Cádiz changing gauge in Sevilla or Madrid - Santander changing gauge in Palencia), when it's the only way to use a HSL and thus cut travel times. But here it's a relatively short line not connected to the rest of the network, so standard gauge would only increase operating costs without any benefit.

Even in Galicia they decided to open Ourense - Santiago in Iberian gauge to avoid those problems I mention.



Sunfuns said:


> I've just read that Spain will have a conservative led coalition government after all. Without going into any political discussion is that good or bad for further funding of railways including but not only finishing the HSR network?


We don't really know, but I guess it will be like in the last 4 years; we won't see any new lines under construction as there aren't enough funds, so all efforts will be put on finishing most HSL currently under construction, as there are still plenty of them (Zamora - Ourense, La Robla - Pola de Lena, Venta de Baños - Burgos, Vitoria - Bilbao / San Sebastián, Madrid Chamartín - Torrejón de Velasco, Plasencia - Badajoz, Camp de Tarragona - Vandellós, Valencia - La Encina, Monforte del Cid - Murcia, Murcia - Almería, Antequera - Granada :nuts. Before all of that is finished, the only new HSL whose construction could be probably started is Burgos - Vitoria, given it's the missing link need to complete the HSR connection between Madrid and the Basque country.

Once all of that is finished, only minor projects would still be pending in order to complete the HSR network, and in most cases cheaper options (upgrades of classic lines) will probably be chosen instead of brand new HSL (Sevilla - Huelva, Zaragoza - Logroño / Pamplona or Palencia - Santander for instance, where classic lines can be upgraded).


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## Sunfuns

I would definitely not expect anything brand new, but finishing the main lines started within the next 4-5 years would be great.


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## arctic_carlos

*HSL Madrid - Valladolid - Burgos*

Some new pictures of the HSL under construction between Venta de Baños and Burgos, cross-posting from the Spanish forum. Credits to user *jotaerre*.

As you can see in the last images, the high speed track ends abruptly in the middle of nowhere, as civil works are yet to be finished in the last few km before Burgos. There were some technical or financial problems, I don't remember exactly, and the works were halted for about a year on that section. Otherwise the line would already be up and running.

It's also worth pointing out that this line will open with just a single track (like most of Olmedo - Zamora and Valladolid - León last year), as a saving measure, given that traffic won't be very high on the line (just the current Alvia services to the Basque country plus 3 or 4 new services, seeing what happened after the opening of Valladolid - León). There will be a gauge changer in Burgos station for those services towards the Basque country (which could also be used by Galicia - Barcelona and Asturias - Barcelona services, of course).

Opening expected sometime in 2017, being optimistic.



jotaerre said:


> Vaciando la memoria de la cámara.
> 
> Algunas fotos de hace tres semanas entre el túnel y el tramo donde hay continuidad en la vía hasta Venta de Baños
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> Rampa de acceso al túnel mirando hacia Burgos
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> Con zoom
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> Estado de la traza
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> Desde el mismo punto, mirando hacia Valladolid y Palencia. Se aprecia el edificio técnico construído hace meses
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> Con zoom también se aprecia el puente que debe dar servicio a la carretera BU-406. Esa carretera la quisieron cortar el mes pasado para continuar las obras de la traza. Al final no la cerraron y se impuso la lógica que es terminar el puente y que por él discurra la carretera.
> 
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> Ese día estaba allí la máquina que vemos trabajando, fuera de hora. Faltaba poco para que anocheciera. Después del puente se aprecia el paso de la carretera que forma un tapón en la traza. Me viene a la memoria algo que *MZC* y *julioelchispa* conocen bien
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> Pese a lo tardío de la hora y gracias al zoom se podía apreciar algún movimiento en la boca del túnel
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> Pero sigamos a lo nuestro. El puente de la BU-406. Detrás del montón de tierra está la pala que hemos visto antes desde el otro lado
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> A veces el uso excesivo del zoom hace cambiar la percepción de la realidad. En este caso la foto está hecha a 2.5 kms. del túnel aunque parece que estamos mucho más cerca
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> 
> Último vistazo hacia Burgos desde la carretera provisional que tapona la traza de la línea. La foto no tiene mayor interés que situar todos los elementos a la vista del lector
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> Girando la vista hacia Valladolid desde esa misma carretera vemos que no es solo la carretera la que estorba
> Aunque parezca mentira, al final de esa trinchera tan atrasada, hay vía y postes de electrificación y hasta ahí podría llegar la BT
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> Aplicando el zoom se ve bien
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> Avanzamos otros cientos de metros y volvemos la vista hacia Burgos para ver el tapón de la BU-406
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> El cartel anuncia el viaducto sobre el Río Hormazuela. Toda la vida creyendo que tenía 300 metros pero pone 406 metros.
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> Esto es todo lo que se me había quedado en la cámara.
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=135777907&postcount=3963


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## Woonsocket54

does anyone know when the following are expected to open?

1. North-south high-speed rail tunnel between Atocha and Chamartin stations in Madrid
2. Sagrera station in Barcelona


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Nobody knows.

The Atocha - Chamartín tunnel had its tracks installed 4 or 5 years ago, but overhead electric wires are missing. In any event, that tunnel will only open when the missing HSL between Atocha and Torrejón de Velasco is ready, and tracks and electrification are yet to be installed there. There are some works going on, but just at a very slow pace.

Works on Sagrera station are halted. No one knows when they'll be resumed.

(sorry for the general tone of all answers, but the situation in Spain is quite depressing right now)


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## arctic_carlos

*HSL Antequera - Granada*

Good news:

The Minster of Public Works announced yesterday in an official visit to Granada that works on the cursed Loja section of this HSL are going to be immediately resumed, and the whole HSL is now expected to open in autumn / fall 2017.

Future travel times have also been announced:

Madrid - Granada: 2 h 50 min (4 h 25 min before the start of the works)

Barcelona - Granada: 6 h 20 min (11 h 20 min on the night train before the start of the works)

Sevilla - Granada : 2 h (3 h before the start of the works)

In addition, the government has also announced that there will be direct services between Málaga and Granada on the HSL, but no travel times have been given. I guess they will be around 1 h 15 min (calling at Loja and Antequera).










Source:

http://www.fomento.es/MFOMBPrensa/N...e-los-la/d41c21c7-adc4-4b8a-96b9-04d09250a55a


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## Suburbanist

Sevilla - Granada could be done in 1h15 if they resumed works on the Sevilla-Utrera-Antaquera high speed line :bash:


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## arctic_carlos

^^ I don't know whether some Sevilla - Granada diesel services in Iberian gauge via Utrera will be kept once the HSL opens. The faster Avant services via Córdoba will save time, of course, but there will be for sure a huge difference of prices.

Similar Avant Sevilla - Málaga services via Córdoba also exist, but many people still prefer the older Iberian gauge diesel services via Utrera, as they're much cheaper (43€ vs. 24€) and there's only a time saving of 40 minutes (1 h 55 min vs. 2 h 35 min).

The Sevilla - Antequera HSL is a dead project right now. Although the civil works on the line are ready between Marchena and Antequera, nothing has been done between Sevilla and Marchena, where the Andalusian government had planned the HSL via Sevilla airport instead of via Utrera.


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## Gusiluz

*The train*

The train will be the Avril G3 wide box in UIC gauge with 521 seats in 201,9 meters by rows of 5 seats.
It is achieved thanks to a mechanism of positioning of boxes in the curves.
More in Wikipedia (in spanish).


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## kbbcn

Seriously? 3+2 seating? I knew Talgo was working on that, but I figured they did so to sell trains in some 3rd world countries. Do they really want to sell this configuration in Spain? Do they want to drive people from high speed train travel back to the airlines?


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## MarcVD

I find it quite amazing that even after introduction of mandatory european tender for railway rolling stock, countries where a local rail industry still exists always manage to orient the tender in such a way that foreign productions are almost never chosen...

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## AlexNL

kbbcn said:


> Seriously? 3+2 seating? I knew Talgo was working on that, but I figured they did so to sell trains in some 3rd world countries. Do they really want to sell this configuration in Spain? Do they want to drive people from high speed train travel back to the airlines?


I've been in the Avril prototype when it was at Innotrans a few years ago, it didn't feel cramped at all despite the 2+3 seating arrangement. This is because the body is wider than you'd find on most trains (it's slightly lower).


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## Gusiluz

The box measures 3,200 mm wide so the seats have standard sizes. The train is valid for UIC gauge because the cars are very short 13.14 meters and move inward of the curves. The system is completely new and different.


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## M-NL

AlexNL said:


> I've been in the Avril prototype when it was at Innotrans a few years ago, it didn't feel cramped at all despite the 2+3 seating arrangement.


Did you actually sit with 3 people next to each other? Otherwise you may not have noticed either the narrower seats or the narrower arm rests.



Gusiluz said:


> The box measures 3,200 mm wide so the seats have standard sizes.


A Velaro ES has a width of 2,950 mm. 25cm extra width is not enough for an extra seat, so something else must have been made narrower too.

I've ridden the Shinkansen N700, which also has 5 seats abreast in standard class. That didn't feel cramped at all, but at 3,4m wide it is a full 45cm wider compared to the Velaro ES.


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## kbbcn

It's not only about the seat width. If there is even the slightest possibility that I will end up in a middle seat between two strangers, I will fly. At least then I know that, if I end up in the middle, it will be a short trip. (To put this in perspective, I often use the train instead of a plane for trips up to 5 or 6 hours. So I am a big fan of train travel in general...)

And what about 1st class on these trains? Are they also dropping the 2+1 seating for 2+2? No more single seats?


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## gincan

MarcVD said:


> I find it quite amazing that even after introduction of mandatory european tender for railway rolling stock, countries where a local rail industry still exists always manage to orient the tender in such a way that foreign productions are almost never chosen...
> 
> Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


The whole idea of having foreign companies competing against domestic ones in a context of political driven decision making is and has always been a complete joke. The Spanish state has poured billions into Talgo over the years, the odds of seeing any other company than Talgo winning was 0,00000000000000001%, even CAF stand no chance when they are up against Talgo.

However, in the future when we will see competition on the Spanish rail network, chances are pretty good other companies will buy based on pure economical reason and not based on how jobs can be saved. Only then we will see the real merit of Talgo, if they can compete in a market driven economy.


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## Suburbanist

gincan said:


> The whole idea of having foreign companies competing against domestic ones in a context of political driven decision making is and has always been a complete joke. The Spanish state has poured billions into Talgo over the years, the odds of seeing any other company than Talgo winning was 0,00000000000000001%, even CAF stand no chance when they are up against Talgo.
> 
> However, in the future when we will see competition on the Spanish rail network, chances are pretty good other companies will buy based on pure economical reason and not based on how jobs can be saved. Only then we will see the real merit of Talgo, if they can compete in a market driven economy.


Talgo exports a lot so they must be somehow competitive.


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## clickgr

I noticed the latest coaches used in the Talgo high speed trains (I think it's AVE Class 102), put into service a couple of years ago, have less space for the legs compared to the previous generation. Now Talgo goes one step further by decreasing space in the other axis too. The train seems to gradually loses its advantages in comfortability.


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## arctic_carlos

MarcVD said:


> I find it quite amazing that even after introduction of mandatory european tender for railway rolling stock, countries where a local rail industry still exists *always* manage to orient the tender in such a way that foreign productions are almost never chosen...


I don't know how the current situation is in other European countries, but at least in Spain we have Spanish (Talgo and CAF), French (Alstom) and German (Siemens) high speed trains.

I understand what you say and in most cases I'm sure you're right, but so far Spain hasn't only bought trains from national producers.


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## M-NL

clickgr said:


> I noticed the latest coaches used in the Talgo high speed trains (I think it's AVE Class 102), put into service a couple of years ago, have less space for the legs compared to the previous generation. Now Talgo goes one step further by decreasing space in the other axis too. The train seems to gradually loses its advantages in comfortability.


Talgo offers the options and builds what the customer asks for...
When the customer (in this case Renfe) wants the seats closer together and 5 abreast they make it happen. Whether the passengers like those choices is another story. It seems like that despite people still growing taller every year, in every new train model they try to cram more seats in less space. We're starting to approach airplane charter carrier territory here and I absolutely don't like that.


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## Bitxofo

^^And that is awful!
They are going towards "low cost" trains, with no legroom for people taller than 1,80 m. Like many airlines nowadays...


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## MarcVD

As far as I know, when Spain went for german or french HST rolling stock, spanish manufacturers did not have an HST offer yet. So I think that my initial position still stands.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> Talgo offers the options and builds what the customer asks for...
> When the customer (in this case Renfe) wants the seats closer together and 5 abreast they make it happen. Whether the passengers like those choices is another story. It seems like that despite people still growing taller every year, in every new train model they try to cram more seats in less space. We're starting to approach airplane charter carrier territory here and I absolutely don't like that.


I always find very strange that each time I get off Thalys in Brussels, the train I take for the 30 minutes ride to my hometown is vastly more comfortable than the one I just had for the 90 minutes trip from Paris.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## MrAkumana

The point of using a HS train is that is more comfortable than a plane for more or less the same price and it takes you more or less the same time from city center to city center than using a plane. So, I can't really see the point of having airplane seats on a HS train. You will just be as uncomfortable as in a plane, paying the same as in a plane but spending more time being unconfortable... I think it's gonna be a big big mistake for Renfe using the 3+2 configuration... 

Yes, Shinkansen in Japan might have it on 2nd class and yes they even have couches that allow people to travel standing on 2nd too (Won't be suprised if Renfe is thinking about that too). But japanese high speed trains are far more competitive than planes over there (tracks in Japan are 100% high speed, trains acelerate to 300km/h right from the moment they leave the station, and domestic planes are much more expensive in Japan than in Spain). Moreover the japanese frequencies sound as something from a sci-fi movie in Europe: one Tokyo-Osaka every 10-15 mins! The Shinkansen it's more like a long distance metro... Spanish system although good is waaay far from that.


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## gincan

arctic_carlos said:


> I don't know how the current situation is in other European countries, but at least in Spain we have Spanish (Talgo and CAF), French (Alstom) and German (Siemens) high speed trains.
> 
> I understand what you say and in most cases I'm sure you're right, but so far Spain hasn't only bought trains from national producers.


The Alstom trains were bought because they were the only real HSR trains on the market in the late 1980s. The only other option was the Japanese Kawasaki train. Talgo did not have a HSR train back then. Neither did the Germans nor the Italians. Anyway, there are lots of politics involved in state owned companies buying foreign products when there are domestic alternatives available.

When Alstom sold their trains to Renfe they also bought two old factories (MACOSA and MTM) as part of the deal, this saved jobs as the spanish TGV trains were assembled in the Barcelona factory and Alstom engines were built in Valencia.


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## 00Zy99

Actually, the Shinkansen has services at roughly SIX minute intervals during the peak.


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## Suburbanist

How is the seat configuration for 1st class?


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## Gusiluz

According to Talgo:


> These cars, with a width of 3,200 millimeters, and thanks to the development of sophisticated active and passive guiding systems of boxes in curves allow the installation of five seats per row, guaranteeing compliance with the UIC gauge and therefore the interoperability of the train, Without the comfort of passengers and accessibility Is not affected.
> The distance between the armrests, the space available for the knees, the width of the aisle and the rest of the comfort parameters do not differ from the characteristics of the Talgo trains.
> The minimum aisle width is 500 millimeters.
> The air was out below the window and occupied space; ventilation is now made to go through the roof.








Well, it looks like some of the people from here got into the car that was in InnoTrans, so you can say better than the others.
According to the planes of the prototype, the seats in First Class have configuration 2 + 2.

Avril photo gallery 

Other innovations of the Avril are: the positioning of boxes in curve (the mechanical part from Liebherr), the guidance of wheels (to minimize costs of maintenance of the train and of the rail, greater comfort in the trip for the passenger, and reduce the noise generated by the friction in curves) that meant the "European Innovation 2013" award for José Luis López, the REGATO (Regulated Energy Efficient Automatic Train Operation) and an innovative floating floor for the passenger area that, with very light materials, minimizes noise and vibration in the passenger compartment.
The Avril –for Alta Velocidad Rueda Independiente Ligero (Light High-Speed Independent Wheel)– of wide box can not have natural pendulum (Pendular by Talgo), the normal box: yes.
[URL = "http://www.talgo.com/index.php/en/pendulacion.php"]Pendular by Talgo[/ URL]: not tilting, cars are not inclined supported by the boogies but hanging: it's Like a pendulum.
The "[URL =" http://www.talgo.com/index.php/en/rueda.php "]stands[/ URL]" Talgo technology is not boogies, they are independent wheels; it´s called “rodal”.
Railtec Systems is responsible for the traction chain and ABB of the traction converter. The exterior has been designed by Pininfarina, the interior by Haslacher, Constellium is in charge of the extruded aluminum of the boxes and the interior panels, the exterior doors are of Bode, the air conditioning of Faiveley (depending on the real occupation of the train), the armchairs of Fainsa and the pieces of composite material of Aeropoxy.
The G3 prototype is certified at 330 km/h, is composed of two conventional locomotives in Bo Bo configuration with 12 trailers, has 4 bogies with traction and 13 stands (38% of motorized axles), a power of 8,800 kW, a consumption of 13 kWh/km, bitensión (1.5 and 25 kV), 201.9 meters and 316 tons. Everything you read and are not here (380 km/h, shared bogies, seats in locomotives, concealment of inactive pantographs ...) refers to the future Avril G4.
It also continues with the "signs of identity" Talgo: lightweight, articulated, low trailers (3.33 m) and low floor: ground 76 cm (AV platform height in Spain, except Seville).







Pendulum system:


Avril suspension:


A PDF about Avril in English



Coste total del contrato / Total cost of the contract
Coste de los trenes / Cost of trains
Coste por tren / Cost per trains
Coste por tren con mantenimiento / Cost per train with maintenance
Mantenimiento (30 años) / Maintenance (30 years)
Mantenimiento por tren y año / Maintenance by train and year
Plazas / Seats
Puntos técnicos (máximo: 35) / Technical points (maximum: 35)
Garantía (años) / Warranty (years)
Disponibilidad / Availability (%)
€ por plaza (coste + mantenimiento) / € per seat (train cost + 30 years maintenance)
Coeficiente variable / Variable coefficient (Energy consumption, availability, budget of cleaning operations and major repairs, years of warranty, delivery times, and a long etcetera)
Coste por plaza con variables / Cost per seat with variable coefficient
Coeficiente teórico / Theoretical coefficient with published cost (according to Renfe they are wrong)
Coste publicado / Published cost (according to Renfe they are wrong)

In addition, the supply deadlines proposed by Talgo reach 36 months, compared to 56 of Alstom. Talgo was also very aggressive in the maintenance price revision (1%), half a percentage point lower than the rest of its rivals (1.5%).

Someone may think that there are two Spanish companies because the buyer is Renfe, but they would be the same if it were summoned for 300 km/h in any other European country: 2 out of 5. If the bidding in, for example, the United States, could be presented Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, CRRC (China Railway Rolling Stock Corporation), Hyundai Rotem (Korea), JR Tokai (Kawasaki, Hitachi, Nippon Sharyo and Kinki Sharyo), Siemens and Talgo. 2 of the only 8. Hitachi will have its European train at 300 km/h (the AT400) ready for the British LAV HS2 in 2026.

Anyway, I do not work in Talgo and I have other things to do, so I will not participate much more in this discussion. If anyone has any questions I will respond with pleasure.


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## arctic_carlos

@krisu99:

Thanks for your research.

I was also referring to something even more striking than city accesses for HSR (which I think we all agree are always difficult). Just look at HSL under construction such as Vitoria - Bilbao / San Sebastián, Zamora - Ourense, Murcia - Almería, Venta de Baños - Burgos or Sevilla - Antequera; instead of building them as unique projects, they divide civil works contracts (we call them "plataforma" in Spanish) in very short sections (usually 6-8 km long), which are tendered and awarded in different moments to different construction companies. That can mean that completed sections can remain iddle for a very long time, even decades, because there's a short missing section where construction hasn't even started (like the Bergara knot).

I understand why motorways are usually built like that, as independent sections can be opened to traffic without much trouble, but I think it's a huge mistake to use this system for the construction of HSL, especially in Spain where the gauge difference makes partial openings very difficult in many cases. Just look at France: if I'm not mistaken, the construction of the HSL to Bordeaux (more than 300 km) was treated as a single project and thus awarded to just a company (or joint venture), which is going to deliver the line on time. 

And then look at the 30 km of completed HSL (civil works) between Murcia and Almería (Vera - Sorbas section) which were built in the middle of nowhere and aren't going to be opened in the short term, as the neighboring sections won't be built anytime soon. That's a waste of money which can't be found anywhere in Europe.


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## Gusiluz

The HSL to Bordeaux is a PPP project so there was no other way.
The tunnels of Almería and the bridges of Extremadura were made to take advantage of the European aid.
The rest is true


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## krisu99

arctic_carlos said:


> @krisu99:
> --- short sections (usually 6-8 km long), which are tendered and awarded in different moments to different construction companies.



From my observations, the "adjudication de subtramo"-philosophy (tendering by units of project) in Spain are a normal approach. The more complex one section of line is, the shorter the unit of projects are. Thus, "subtramos" of 5km exist when its difficult terrain, but also 30km and more where it is "easy" (i.e. east and north of Zamora- absolutely flat lands with no urbanization)

Dividing long linear projects into smaller units of project ("subtramos") is common more or less everywhere. This is a pragmatic approach and makes sense for several reasons. First, one "handy" unit can be seen as "unit of complexity" which can be handled easier than the overall line as a whole from detail planning to execution.

Another reason is that works on each single unit can start only once detail planning and all necessary agreements are done with local stakeholders. Nowadays this is likely to be the most time consuming task...

Then, it is easier for a pragmatic state to release funds for each single unit of project when ... funding gets available! Thinner slices of Salami... Thus, one huge expenditure (which every HSL line is...) can be spread across several years, resulting in some units of project starting earlier than others (which is not always rational from a project management point of view).

Last but not least, units of projects can be attributed to smaller construction companies (or temporary cooperating ones), which makes it possible to have regional enterprises involved. This is very common and makes sense in terms of regional economic politics.

You mention the example of France, where HSL works seem to advance much faster: This is surely true, but France so far prefers building TGV lines mostly where this is relatively easily feasible: Through wide flat-lands and low density populated areas. 
The very few sections that resulted a bit more difficult (TGV Med northern access to Marseille for instance)...also took much more time to be initiated and completed. 

Also, France tends to build one or two HSL lines at a time, thus limiting investment flow and planning requirements (now 3, but it is unusual), while Spain believed to splash out a nationwide network at once. Of course this can not work out smoothly, even less if a new gauge is being chosen. Too much of something completely new "immediately" is usually not a wise approach as costly errors may occur ... no time to "learn lessons".


Last but not least, there is nothing like a "Basque-Y" Metro-HSL anywhere else worldwide ... serving 3 regional towns. Personally, I find it a very cool infrastructure, a thrilling idea. I am a fan of such things. But I also understand that it overstretched any budget (being it in crisis times or not).




Factors that may impede works on a unit of project might be among others:
* Detail projecting fails to get agreements with local stakeholders (political process, buorocratic process...)
* Errors were made in the procedure giving local stakeholders the ability to block (happens often, very often. Law suits, re-projecting...).
* There are simply no funding to start a section
* Errors were made when tendering contractors (resulting in law suits...)
* Construction companies go bankrupt (requiring re-tendering, law suits...)
* Scandals arise (bribes etc, even more law suits...)
* Construction methods need to be changed (Eg manual boring instead of TBM because of poor pre-work geological surveys, law suits again...)

Well, everything imaginable may go wrong. Actually, it is a wonder if it goes well. 
The missing links in Begara may be a combination of the above? I have no clue. Wasn't there some endless re-planning? Something must have gone wrong (apart missing funds).... 


But overall I do not observe particular anomalies in the Spanish "unit of project" system. The HSL sections built in the "nowhere" like the lost Almeria section are more likely to be consequence of too ambitious and naive political decision making (btw: will works start around Pulpi soon?)

The man hindrance to complete the Spanish HSL Network remains the problematic interfacing between ADIF centrally planned sections (mostly finished or u/c) and the near total failure of regional political powers to integrate HSL in a responsible way into "their" territory- that is what I wanted to show in my previous map based analysis. 


When will the current U/C lines be completed?
My "guess" based upon current and past practices I could observe:
* Basque Y: 2021
* Pajares Tunnel: 2019 (single track)
* Madrid crossing: 2018 (single track southern entrance)
* Zamora - Ourense: 2023 (mostly single track)
* Extremadura: 2020 (no further new sections, just finish and connect what is there) 

Again, I really like the Spanish infrastructure race, I traveled and analyzed most of its lines as good as I could, embracing all perspectives I could get aware of


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## krisu99

alserrod said:


> Fine... but not perfect.
> Zaragoza station is located in the east side of tunnel and infrastructures could be better managed
> 
> http://www.retrofutur.org/retrofutu...54095266682452,-1.0986059863892024)&mt=hybrid


Well, Zaragoza has gotten a near ideal infrastructure from what I could observe. It is true that the station has been moved to the west along the same "old" alignment, and the line now is underground. But hasn't this main axis been transformed into a useful Cercanías/RER/S-Bahn type of Service, with 4 city stops? 

I mean, you could have gotten much worse solutions, like a station 6km from the city center, in the nowhere, reachable only by bus, like Burgos. Burgos now has beautiful parking lots and a through-road instead of the removed city center line...


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## krisu99

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ There is a fundamental difference between Spain and Europe: the different width of passenger trains in Spain; is not enough to change the tension when entering the cities.
> And all this so that there are five daily circulations ... in summer; and with few travelers from Spain to France.


Gusiluz, I highly value your expertise in your many interesting contributions. But I really do not understand what you want to express in your message here. Can you rephrase it maybe (in Spanish too) ?


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## arctic_carlos

Thanks again for all your interesting comments. It's a very valuable contribution to the thread. 



krisu99 said:


> Also, France tends to build one or two HSL lines at a time, thus limiting investment flow and planning requirements (now 3, but it is unusual), while Spain believed to splash out a nationwide network at once. Of course this can not work out smoothly, even less if a new gauge is being chosen. Too much of something completely new "immediately" is usually not a wise approach as costly errors may occur ... no time to "learn lessons".





krisu99 said:


> But overall I do not observe particular anomalies in the Spanish "unit of project" system. The HSL sections built in the "nowhere" like the lost Almeria section are more likely to be consequence of too ambitious and naive political decision making (btw: will works start around Pulpi soon?)


This is a good example of the above; instead of prioritizing two or three HSL in particular at each time (like the French do), the decision to build a huge network at once has its victims: isolated sections which won't open in 10 or 15 years (we can also find them in southern Navarre or in the famous Antequera - Seville HSL). Fortunately, it seems that the isolated sections of the HSL in Extremadura will open with Iberian gauge and diesel trains, hopefully in 2 years or so.



krisu99 said:


> The missing links in Begara may be a combination of the above? I have no clue. Wasn't there some endless re-planning? Something must have gone wrong (apart missing funds)....





krisu99 said:


> * Construction methods need to be changed (Eg manual boring instead of TBM because of poor pre-work geological surveys, law suits again...)


I think it had something to do with this (but in the opposite way); a TBM is going to be used while the original planning didn't envisage it.

Moreover, 2 or 3 different units are going to be merged into a single project (it had also something to do with the choice of using a TBM).



krisu99 said:


> The man hindrance to complete the Spanish HSL Network remains the problematic interfacing between ADIF centrally planned sections (mostly finished or u/c) and the near total failure of regional political powers to integrate HSL in a responsible way into "their" territory- that is what I wanted to show in my previous map based analysis.


I agree to a certain extent, because so far this (evident) lack of coordination and common interests hasn't really prevented the development of the HSR network in Spain.

Once the interurban sections planned by Adif are ready, a provisional integration is always found to put the new HSL into service. Look at the examples of Valencia, Alicante, Valladolid, Palencia or León. Although the lines don't operate at its full potential due to the existence of single-tracked sections or slow accesses, they give an acceptable service.

In my opinion is far more worse to move the stations out of the city centers for greedy reasons (i.e. development of real estate in the areas of the old stations). Nevertheless, in some cases "parkway" stations were the best options to give service to a given area without compromising travel times for end-to-end services or increasing costs (Segovia, Guadalajara or Tarragona could be good examples of that).



krisu99 said:


> When will the current U/C lines be completed?
> My "guess" based upon current and past practices I could observe:
> * Basque Y: 2021
> * Pajares Tunnel: 2019 (single track)
> * Madrid crossing: 2018 (single track southern entrance)
> * Zamora - Ourense: 2023 (mostly single track)
> * Extremadura: 2020 (no further new sections, just finish and connect what is there)


My guess:


Madrid crossing (Torrejón de Velasco - Chamartín): 2017 (works are speeding up in the recent weeks)
Venta de Baños - Burgos: 2017
Camp de Tarragona - Vandellòs: 2017
Antequera - Granada: 2017
Extremadura (Plasencia - Cáceres - Mérida - Badajoz): 2018
Monforte del Cid - Murcia: 2018
Zamora - Ourense (there are actually two different sections):
- Zamora - Pedralba: 2018
- Pedralba - Ourense: 2023
Pajares Tunnel: 2019
Basque Y: 2022



krisu99 said:


> Again, I really like the Spanish infrastructure race, I traveled and analyzed most of its lines as good as I could, embracing all perspectives I could get aware of


Thanks!


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## Gusiluz

krisu99 said:


> Gusiluz, I highly value your expertise in your many interesting contributions. But I really do not understand what you want to express in your message here. Can you rephrase it maybe (in Spanish too) ?


Yeah right. I have a problem with English, and also with the mobile :bash:

First thing: thank you very much.

In Spain high-speed trains have another width (not just another electric voltage), so the French solution does not serve to link with the conventional network near the cities.
The solution may be to take the station to the outskirts (Zaragoza was very close to it); To remove a conventional track and change it by a standard one (Valladolid, Palencia, León and Burgos); Or bury the station and do everything new hoping that the land gains paid on the works.

The advantage of the standard width for passenger trains (for export goods is unquestionable) is, finally, to move travelers between countries. Well, now there are 4 daily services round-trip in winter, and 7 in summer, and are sustained thanks to passengers between Madrid and Figueres, and the French domestic passengers. There are very few international travelers on those trains. The announced service Madrid-Paris disappeared long ago from the approaches.

The planning of the works is very complete and long, and depends on many factors. In case it was not enough: there are also politicians.
In 2008 the Madrid-Badajoz-Portuguese border line was announced for 2012 but the crisis appeared, Portugal disassociated itself from the project and Extremadura and Andalusia came out of the great European aid in 2013, so the most important works were built before. Now we have to wait for the line to get there (Almería), or a temporary solution: 200 km/h and diesel and hybrid traction in Extremadura.
...............................................................
En España los trenes de alta velocidad tienen otro ancho (no solo otra tensión eléctrica), así que no sirve la solución francesa de enlazar con la red convencional cerca de las ciudades.
La solución puede ser llevar la estación a las afueras (Zaragoza estuvo muy cerca de ello); quitar una vía convencional y cambiarla por otra de ancho estándar (Valladolid, Palencia, León y Burgos); o soterrar la estación y hacer todo nuevo esperando que las plusvalías de los terrenos pagasen las obras.

La ventaja del ancho estándar para los trenes de viajeros (para las mercancías de exportación es incuestionable) es, finalmente, trasladar viajeros entre países. Bien, ahora hay 4 servicios diarios ida y vuelta en invierno, y 7 en verano, y se sostienen gracias a los viajeros entre Madrid y Figueres, y a los viajeros internos en Francia. Hay muy pocos viajeros internacionales en esos trenes. El anunciado servicio Madrid-París desapareció hace mucho de los planteamientos.

Yo habría construido en ancho estándar solo la línea Barcelona-Figueres (para los Euroduplex a París), y el resto en ancho ibérico. Ahora habría trenes S-130 con ancho variable entre Madrid y Marsella, Madrid-Figueres y Valencia-Figueres; 5 o 7 servicios ida y vuelta diarios diarios, 10 / 14 pasos por cambiador. En 2015 hubo 30.646 pasos por cambiador en España.

La planificación de las obras es muy completa y larga, y depende de muchos factores. Por si fuese poco: también están los políticos.
En 2008 se anunció la línea Madrid-Badajoz-Frontera portuguesa para 2012 pero apareció la crisis, Portugal se desvinculó del proyecto y Extremadura y Andalucía salían de las grandes ayudas europeas en 2013, así que se construyeron antes las obras más importantes. Ahora hay que esperar que la línea llegue hasta allí (Almería), o una solución provisional: 200 km/h y tracción diésel e híbrida en Extremadura.


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## Ribarca

437.001 said:


> D
> 
> *Madrid radial tolled motorways:* they'd be doing ok if they had been free motorways instead of tolled motorways. The government has had to bail them out. However, lately, they're seeing an increase in transit, as Madrid keeps on growing and the country is (very) slowly leaving the crisis behind, bit by bit.


They would never have been built if it were not troll road. It could not have been financed. Financing was based on (false) claims about usage and thus revenue.

Cases like these should be studied through and through. It cannot be the case that the common man has to bail out construction companies time and time again. And the common man outside of Madrid has zero gain from it.


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## 437.001

arctic_carlos said:


> Just look at France: if I'm not mistaken, the construction of the HSL to Bordeaux (more than 300 km) was treated as a single project and thus awarded to just a company (or joint venture), which is going to deliver the line on time.


Not only is it a PPP like Gusiluz said, but it's the delay that its construction took that has made possible that the whole section from Tours to Bordeaux will open in just one go.
In the beginning, it was planned to divide it in two sections (Tours-Angoulême and Angoulême-Bordeaux), that would have opened at different times (can't remember which one would open first).



arctic_carlos said:


> And then look at the 30 km of completed HSL (civil works) between Murcia and Almería (Vera - Sorbas section) which were built in the middle of nowhere and aren't going to be opened in the short term, as the neighboring sections won't be built anytime soon. That's a waste of money which can't be found anywhere in Europe.


Dunno. If the aim was to secure EU funding for that, I'm fine with that.

After all, it is a money that in the end will be put to use, only that sometimes it takes long.

Later on, they won't need the money that they'd need for the construction of that section, because the investment's already been made.

The only real handicap is that it needs a maintenance (but less than if the line were open), and that it's rather unnerving if you are a local and see how long it takes before it opens.


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## Suburbanist

@Gusluiz: just a friendly hint - what you are writtinf 'width' (for "ancho") is usually called gauge in English, if you are referring to the distance between the rail Tracks (1680mm vs 1435mm)


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## arctic_carlos

437.001 said:


> Not only is it a PPP like Gusiluz said, but it's the delay that its construction took that has made possible that the whole section from Tours to Bordeaux will open in just one go.
> In the beginning, it was planned to divide it in two sections (Tours-Angoulême and Angoulême-Bordeaux), that would have opened at different times (can't remember which one would open first).


Alright. But at least they had planned two sections which could be opened independently, not just finishing in the middle of a cabbage field.



437.001 said:


> Dunno. If the aim was to secure EU funding for that, I'm fine with that.
> 
> After all, it is a money that in the end will be put to use, only that sometimes it takes long.
> 
> Later on, they won't need the money that they'd need for the construction of that section, because the investment's already been made.
> 
> The only real handicap is that it needs a maintenance (but less than if the line were open), and that it's rather unnerving if you are a local and see how long it takes before it opens.


Then it makes more sense. But anyway they could have started the construction of the line with Pulpí - Vera (26 km), where a station is planned, so a partial opening would have been possible (even in Iberian gauge and with diesel trains, as a temporary solution).

Maybe I should say absolute lack of planning instead of waste of money, as the line will eventually enter into service. But that 27 km stretch between Vera and Los Arejos was completed 5 years ago and won't see any trains at least for 10 more years (and I'm being very optimistic about it).

Deeply regretting it, I think that currently the prospects of this line being completed anytime soon are as bright as in the case of Antequera- Seville HSL.

Picture of the completed section from wikipedia:


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## hammersklavier

Gusiluz said:


> Yeah right. I have a problem with English, and also with the mobile :bash:
> 
> First thing: thank you very much.
> 
> In Spain high-speed trains have another width (not just another electric voltage), so the French solution does not serve to link with the conventional network near the cities.
> The solution may be to take the station to the outskirts (Zaragoza was very close to it); To remove a conventional track and change it by a standard one (Valladolid, Palencia, León and Burgos); Or bury the station and do everything new hoping that the land gains paid on the works.
> 
> The advantage of the standard width for passenger trains (for export goods is unquestionable) is, finally, to move travelers between countries. Well, now there are 4 daily services round-trip in winter, and 7 in summer, and are sustained thanks to passengers between Madrid and Figueres, and the French domestic passengers. There are very few international travelers on those trains. The announced service Madrid-Paris disappeared long ago from the approaches.
> 
> The planning of the works is very complete and long, and depends on many factors. In case it was not enough: there are also politicians.
> In 2008 the Madrid-Badajoz-Portuguese border line was announced for 2012 but the crisis appeared, Portugal disassociated itself from the project and Extremadura and Andalusia came out of the great European aid in 2013, so the most important works were built before. Now we have to wait for the line to get there (Almería), or a temporary solution: 200 km/h and diesel and hybrid traction in Extremadura.
> ...............................................................
> En España los trenes de alta velocidad tienen otro ancho (no solo otra tensión eléctrica), así que no sirve la solución francesa de enlazar con la red convencional cerca de las ciudades.
> La solución puede ser llevar la estación a las afueras (Zaragoza estuvo muy cerca de ello); quitar una vía convencional y cambiarla por otra de ancho estándar (Valladolid, Palencia, León y Burgos); o soterrar la estación y hacer todo nuevo esperando que las plusvalías de los terrenos pagasen las obras.
> 
> La ventaja del ancho estándar para los trenes de viajeros (para las mercancías de exportación es incuestionable) es, finalmente, trasladar viajeros entre países. Bien, ahora hay 4 servicios diarios ida y vuelta en invierno, y 7 en verano, y se sostienen gracias a los viajeros entre Madrid y Figueres, y a los viajeros internos en Francia. Hay muy pocos viajeros internacionales en esos trenes. El anunciado servicio Madrid-París desapareció hace mucho de los planteamientos.
> 
> Yo habría construido en ancho estándar solo la línea Barcelona-Figueres (para los Euroduplex a París), y el resto en ancho ibérico. Ahora habría trenes S-130 con ancho variable entre Madrid y Marsella, Madrid-Figueres y Valencia-Figueres; 5 o 7 servicios ida y vuelta diarios diarios, 10 / 14 pasos por cambiador. En 2015 hubo 30.646 pasos por cambiador en España.
> 
> La planificación de las obras es muy completa y larga, y depende de muchos factores. Por si fuese poco: también están los políticos.
> En 2008 se anunció la línea Madrid-Badajoz-Frontera portuguesa para 2012 pero apareció la crisis, Portugal se desvinculó del proyecto y Extremadura y Andalucía salían de las grandes ayudas europeas en 2013, así que se construyeron antes las obras más importantes. Ahora hay que esperar que la línea llegue hasta allí (Almería), o una solución provisional: 200 km/h y tracción diésel e híbrida en Extremadura.


If you permit me to try to interpret this, what you're trying to get at is:

The Spanish HSR network is built to a different gauge standard than the mainline network. In this, it is more akin to the Japanese Shinkansen and less akin to the French, German, and Italian solutions. (It isn't _quite_ as extreme as Japan's situation, but the basic fact remains that you need specialized trainsets, such as the Talgos used in Alvia service, to move from the HSLs to the classical lines.) This makes it significantly more difficult to integrate HSR into the existing network than it is in the rest of Western Europe.

Would I be about correct in my summary?


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## Gusiluz

^^ In fact, I could not have done better kay:
I tried to warn of those problems in the HS Thread in India, but they tell me that it is better in standard gauge because the trains are already designed like this. As if they were motorcars in a chain factory.

On the other hand, a news of this same week is that the *section Lorca-Pulpí will be constructed in double track*, the minister said; The rest, to Almería, single track in platform for double track. They want to make a logistics terminal in Pulpí.


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## 437.001

Gusiluz said:


> On the other hand, a news of this same week is that the *section Lorca-Pulpí will be constructed in double track*, the minister said; The rest, to Almería, single track in platform for double track. They want to make a logistics terminal in Pulpí.


Where exactly? :? Can't find it...

edit: found! Took me a while. Thanks for the tip.


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## clickgr

A few days ago I had the chance to compare the interior of the coaches (2nd class) of the Talgo 350 (AVE S-102) to Velaro (AVE S-103) side by side on my trip from Huesca to Barcelona, via changing train in Zaragoza.

First I had to say that the previous seat configuration in the Talgo coaches was my favourite one, before they change it a few of years ago. There was much space for the legs in every seat position and you could easily lay down the seat to sleep without loosing comfort and without minding you may bother the person seating behind you. The Velaro seats had a bit less space for the legs but still relatively comfortable.

Now the seats in the new Talgo coaches are just awful! The space for the legs has been significantly reduced, almost to the same level as the Velaro seats when they are in vertical position. However, in lay down position there is even bigger difference. The trash can between the two seats in front is a big pain! Your legs hit on this metal can all the time if you have a person sitting next to you and you cannot extend your legs to the right or to the left, which eventually makes lay down position totally impractical (in Velaro coaches the trash can is located in a different place, further down and it is smaller). Moreover I noticed that the Talgo seats do not go as far down as the Velaro seats (I suspect they have even less space between the front and the back seat than in Velaro). I am not a very tall person, I would say an average sized, just 1.80m tall, and I found the new Talgo seats very uncomfortable in the lay down position.


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## kbbcn

^^
But somehow we have to believe that the seats on the new Talgo trains with 3+2 seating are going to be miraculously very comfortable. For those who still do: stop dreaming!

(Thanks for this comparison, by the way...)


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## roaddor

Guys, is the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona the preferred choice of transport in comparison to the air service? I suppose this is the case taking into account the combined effect of travel time, cost and overall comfort.
And one more question how many kilometers (on average) of new high-speed rail tracks are laid in a year in Spain?


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## clickgr

roaddor said:


> Guys, is the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona the preferred choice of transport in comparison to the air service? I suppose this is the case taking into account the combined effect of travel time, cost and overall comfort.
> And one more question how many kilometers (on average) of new high-speed rail tracks are laid in a year in Spain?


If you want to travel from the city centre of Madrid to the city centre of Barcelona, then the AVE is definitely the best way to do so. Only 2 and half hours journey non stop and if you book your ticket a bit early on, price is very reasonable.


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## roaddor

Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...es-boring-of-bolanos-tunnels.html?channel=523

*FCC completes boring of Bolaños tunnels*
Monday, January 09, 2017










_SPANISH infrastructure group FCC Construction announced on January 6 that it has completed the boring of the Bolaños tunnels on the Madrid - Galicia high-speed line_

The work comprised the delivery of two 6.7km parallel single-track tunnels along the Verín - Ourense section of the line

...


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## Gusiluz

roaddor said:


> Guys, is the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona the preferred choice of transport in comparison to the air service? I suppose this is the case taking into account the combined effect of travel time, cost and overall comfort.
> And one more question how many kilometers (on average) of new high-speed rail tracks are laid in a year in Spain?


Share of market between train and airplane

I have just finished this list, which aims to increase and update.

The UIC data (80%) refers to the mean HST that take less than 150 minutes.
The figure for China is the total of CRH trains compared to domestic flights.


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## Vaud

roaddor said:


> Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?


If the aim is to link Madrid and Lisbon, wouldn't it make more sense to link Merida and Puertollano then use the Seville-Madrid line? Surely that line can't be that much congested. That line to Plasencia just seems to be a huge wastage of resources.


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## parrocho

Plasencia, Cáceres, Mérida and Badajoz are also the main cities in Extremadura Region. The aim is to connect them too.


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## 437.001

roaddor said:


> Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?


The map contains some inaccuracies.

As for how does the country cope with the expenditures, the answer is complex.

The country wants to have a fast access to every part of the country, the sooner the better, but doesn't like its cost.

Besides, the people in the country knows not a lot about how costly it actually is. It's not as expensive as they like to think (not that it is a bargain anyway!).

The different parts of the country consider that they should be the first to have a HSL, and they feel discriminated if they're not the first on the list to have it.

The country has had to slow down the rate of expansion of the HSR network at Brussels's request. But the plans will be implemented, only that at a less fast pace.

Several cities of the country are showing signs of NIMBY-ism, as they insist for their stations be removed from the city centre, or want them underground "to eliminate the urban scar that has become the railway line".

There are more railway passengers than ever. Every addition to the HSR network brings more new passengers into the network.
However, Renfe is starting to have a serious shortage of rolling stock.

Liberalization is being delayed. It's not good to make decisions when the EU is going through a major crisis that will have yet-unknown consequences.



Vaud said:


> If the aim is to link Madrid and Lisbon, wouldn't it make more sense to link Merida and Puertollano then use the Seville-Madrid line? Surely that line can't be that much congested. That line to Plasencia just seems to be a huge wastage of resources.





parrocho said:


> Plasencia, Cáceres, Mérida and Badajoz are also the main cities in Extremadura Region. The aim is to connect them too.


It should be added that the line between Puertollano and Merida crosses the west of the Ciudad Real province, which is rather unpopulated and mountainous.

That's not the case of the line via Caceres, which is more evenly populated, and more populated overall, serving some regional mid-size cities, and runs through wider, less mountainous valleys (mainly the Tagus valley).

Last but not least, the travel time to Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona would be longer via Ciudad Real, unless they made a costly upgrade of the section between Cabeza del Buey and Puertollano (or a full HSL).

So no, the right thing to do is to go via Caceres and Plasencia.

As for it being a huge waste of resources...

It will be a waste of resources if the Portuguese don't build the connection between Evora and Badajoz. 
That's why it's being kept in a bit of a standstill. However, it will be a rather big improvement for the Extremadura region.

That said, it's not more costly that other HSL's which are already in use, or being built (Madrid-Barcelona HSL, Madrid-Seville HSL, Cordoba-Malaga HSL, Galicia HSL, Basque Y). It's only that it has a couple of big viaducts. And the part that has started works (Navalmoral-Badajoz, particularly the section between Plasencia and Merida) is the most complicated. But it's not the most complicated to build of all the HSL's in Spain.

Let's hope the Portuguese start works on their part of the line as soon as possible.


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## roaddor

437.001 said:


> The map contains some inaccuracies.


In what way is the map wrong? Sure, I am not aware of the details. 



437.001 said:


> The different parts of the country consider that they should be the first to have a HSL, and they feel discriminated if they're not the first on the list to have it.


Hard choice to prioritize.


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## Gusiluz

roaddor said:


> Obviously Spain has launched a massive programme to implement a new high-speed railway network which comes at a huge cost. How does the country cope with the expenditures?


50% of the investment came from European funds.
Other countries did not play their part and lost it.



roaddor said:


>


Very few inaccuracies. I have seen worse maps in Spain.
Olmedo (Valladolid)-Zamora is already in service.
Olmedo-Salamanca has nothing to do with HS, it was simply electrified for the Alvia HS trains to arrive. That is: it is already in service but it is not HS.
Sevilla-Cádiz is the conventional line duplicated and with some variant, maximum speed: 200 in some sections.
On the other hand it is the same as A Coruña-Vigo.
Zaragoza-Huesca is the conventional line changed gauge and electrified, maximum: 160 / 200.


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## 437.001

Gusiluz said:


> Very few inaccuracies. I have seen worse maps in Spain.


So to speak.



Gusiluz said:


> Olmedo (Valladolid)-Zamora is already in service.
> Olmedo-Salamanca has nothing to do with HS, it was simply electrified for the Alvia HS trains to arrive. That is: it is already in service but it is not HS.
> Sevilla-Cádiz is the conventional line duplicated and with some variant, maximum speed: 200 in some sections.
> On the other hand it is the same as A Coruña-Vigo.


Right.



Gusiluz said:


> *Zaragoza-Huesca is the conventional line changed gauge and electrified*, maximum: 160 / 200.


Er... not exactly.

Zaragoza-Tardienta is an entirely new line, which runs parallel to the old classic line (which is still in use). 
Tardienta-Huesca didn't exactly change gauge, it was a 3rd rail that was added. What was changed was the OHLE and its tension.
As for its maximum speeds, you were right.

But I guess you already knew.

-------------------------------------------------------

On the other hand, the map above included Valencia-Castellon as a HSL, which is debatable.

And they include Castejon-Pamplona, which as far as I'm aware, it only barely started works in a very small section, then these were halted and there's no way they're going ahead anytime soon.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, Castejón-Pamplona does not have a known horizon, although it appears in all the maps.

Well, to be more exact in the old dual-track Zaragoza-Tardienta section, one of the tracks was changed to a standard gauge with a maximum speed of 200 (with some new variant: 10,5 km), and the old single-track section Tardienta-Huesca was changed to mixed gauge (3rd rail) with a speed maximum of 160. It appears on all HS maps, but can not be considered as such, the average speed is 109 km/h.
I was talking about what was new line or not.

As for the gauge (in case of iberian gauge which forces Alvia services instead of AVE), isolated sections of *Galicia *(Ourense-Santiago and A Coruña-Vigo) and the one being built in *Extremadura *(Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida-Badajoz) are in iberian gauge, which will be changed (the sleepers and points have holes to move the rail, although it will not be easy) to the standard gauge when the line arrives there. The new line between Plasencia and Bajadoz will not be electrified, conventional trains will be placed with diesel locomotive to Badajoz (1) and Mérida (1), and Alvia S-730 dual (hybrid) trains (2) to Badajoz entering Mérida (1 of them, in addition, in Plasencia).
*Seville-Cádiz* is also Iberian gauge (there are commuter and freight), *Tardienta-Huesca* mixed gauge, and then there are new ones lines:

*Valencia-Castellón* has changed one of the existing tracks to the mixed gauge, trains can only cross in Sagunto. 
*Tarragona-Vilaseca-Vandellós* in iberian gauge double track, although it is new.
*Valencia-La Encina* will have a new route up to Játiva and from 2004 to La Encina, all in double track and standard gauge. 
*La Encina-Alicante* will be with the current single track with mixed gauge.
*Monforte del Cid-Murcia*: new route (one track in standard and the other in iberian) and entry in Murcia with mixed gauge by existing track.
*Murcia-Cartagena*: will be with the current single track with mixed gauge.
*Murcia-Almería*: without deadlines, double track to Pulpí and simple until Almeria.
*Antequera-Granada*: part is new platform with double and single track, and the passage through Loja (27 km) and the entrance in Granada (1.1 km) by the conventional with mixed gauge.
*Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco* (To the South, to join the HSL to Valencia) is all new, although the part of the tunnel that is under Atocha (without possible communication with this one, until several years) is unique track.
*Zamora-Pedralba*-Taboadela is a new platform with a single track with small double tracks, and the section Zamora-Montamarta (17 km) is a new track in standard gauge and change the old track to the mixed gauge. The section Taboadela-Ourense is not yet known: o new platform or mixed gauge.
*Venta de Baños (Palencia)-Burgos*: all with a single track.
*Tunnels of Pajares* (Asturias-León): only a tube with iberian gauge. Without date.
*Y Vasca*: double standard gauge with entrance to the cities (still not very clear) in mixed gauge. Many problems, especially in the Vergara Knot (the union of the Y).

The most expensive works (viaducts and tunnels) in Extremadura and Andalusia were made before 2013 to take advantage of the greater European aid, if they had not been lost.
The new platforms are built for double track, although there are sections with single track.

The Castellbisbal (Barcelona)-Castellón *freight connection* will be made by one of the current tracks through mixed gauge.

Very complicated, as you can see.


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## clickgr

The biggest waste of money for me in all those projects is the Y shape line in the Basque country. Why the hell do you need to connect all these 3 Basque cities (Bilbao, Vitoria and St. Sebastian) via high speed line, given the very difficult terrain of the Basque country side for building HSR lines and given the close distance they are located these 3 cities one another? 

They should have built just one HS line connecting the biggest and more industrialized of them (Bilbao) to Madrid or even better to Zaragoza and then via the existing Madrid-Barcelona line to Madrid and to Barcelona. The other two cities if they are not on the way of this new line could have access to the HS network simply via conventional lines connected to the new HS line at some intermediate station.

The Basque Y line is a nice to have but for its huge construction cost I think there are other lines to give priority in construction, like for example connecting Barcelona to Valencia or Seville to Malaga. 

At least they could have finish first the section Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria before they start building the Basque Y. From commercial point of view it would make much more sense.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ There are three points I'd like to raise:

- Vitoria is located on a flat area, and it's important enough as a city to make any HSL towards Bilbao from either Valladolid or Zaragoza serve it. Any HSL to Bilbao will be very costly due to the terrain of the area, so the costs of building it via the current line or via Vitoria aren't going to be very different. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the 19th century, now that we have better means.

- Bilbao and San Sebastián are the centers of the two main industrial areas in the Basque Country. Although Bilbao is bigger, the area around San Sebastián (not just the city itself) has a large population and it's also an important touristic destination. Both cities are currently linked by a meter-gauge railway line with horrible travel times, but which gives a good service to the intermediate towns (like Durango or Eibar). I mean, there's nothing akin to a classic line which could be connected to the Vitoria - Bilbao leg of the Y to make it cheaper.

- And finally, San Sebastián is very close to the French border, so the Y will be connected to the French network (mixed gauge is being installed on the classic line between San Sebastián and the border at Irun/Hendaye). Hence, AVE/TGV and, above all, freight trains, will be able to continue towards France without changing gauge at the border.

In my opinion, is the combination of the above what makes the Basque Y a necessary investment.


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## Sunfuns

In my opinion Basque Y is more useful than, for example, the line to Galicia or Extremadura. Even better would have been a full scale HSR between Vitoria and Burgos as well.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ The full HSL Burgos - Vitoria hasn't been completely ruled out. In fact, many people believe that the new Public Works Minister will give priority to the project again.


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## Vaud

437.001 said:


> That's not the case of the line via Caceres, which is more evenly populated, and more populated overall, serving some regional mid-size cities, and runs through wider, less mountainous valleys (mainly the Tagus valley).
> 
> Last but not least, the travel time to Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona would be longer via Ciudad Real, unless they made a costly upgrade of the section between Cabeza del Buey and Puertollano (or a full HSL).


True, but according to Wikipedia Valencia has an urban population of 1.6m, and Barcelona 4.7m. 

The combined population of those 4 cities on the Portuguese HSL does not even reach 350K :nuts: what's the budget for this line? I can't find the information on google, but whatever the cost is, 450km of new HSR to join such small cities seems ridiculous, especially when you look at the existing gaps in the Spanish network such as Barcelona-Valencia or Seville-Malaga.


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## roaddor

Gusiluz said:


> 50% of the investment came from European funds.
> Other countries did not play their part and lost it.


This is interesting, what do you mean other countries did not play their part and lost it? All countries, I believe, want to have such HS lines, the faster the better. It should be noted that those with bigger areas such as France, Spain, Germany, Italy are likely to build such lines and Spain has constructed a whole network which is impressive. Alright, not everything is for 300, but even if you are riding through most of the country with 200-220, this is a very good speed.

What do the white sections mean, not started yet?


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## Gusiluz

^^ I am referring to some countries, to give just one example: Portugal, did not submit projects so as not to have to pay their share, and lost their opportunity. If it were not for the European aid to the HSL the railroad as a mode of transport of passengers in Spain would be completely insignificant.

The white sections are those where you do not know what will happen: new platform or mixed gauge?


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## Suburbanist

I still hope a new French government might approve funds to build a Toulouse-Zaragoza HSL on the French side.


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## clickgr

arctic_carlos said:


> ^^ There are three points I'd like to raise:
> 
> - Vitoria is located on a flat area, and it's important enough as a city to make any HSL towards Bilbao from either Valladolid or Zaragoza serve it. Any HSL to Bilbao will be very costly due to the terrain of the area, so the costs of building it via the current line or via Vitoria aren't going to be very different. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the 19th century, now that we have better means.
> 
> - Bilbao and San Sebastián are the centers of the two main industrial areas in the Basque Country. Although Bilbao is bigger, the area around San Sebastián (not just the city itself) has a large population and it's also an important touristic destination. Both cities are currently linked by a meter-gauge railway line with horrible travel times, but which gives a good service to the intermediate towns (like Durango or Eibar). I mean, there's nothing akin to a classic line which could be connected to the Vitoria - Bilbao leg of the Y to make it cheaper.
> 
> - And finally, San Sebastián is very close to the French border, so the Y will be connected to the French network (mixed gauge is being installed on the classic line between San Sebastián and the border at Irun/Hendaye). Hence, AVE/TGV and, above all, freight trains, will be able to continue towards France without changing gauge at the border.
> 
> In my opinion, is the combination of the above what makes the Basque Y a necessary investment.


Good points. I do not disagree that the Basque Y can be useful in long term. My objection is in the priority given to this line compared to others.

The French HSR network is not expected to reach the Spanish-French border near San Sebastian in the next 15 years at best. Since Vitoria is located in the easiest terrain among the rest of the Basque main cities, wouldn't be more reasonable to start first with building a line connecting Vitoria to the rest of the Spanish high speed network, rather than starring building a Basque Y isolated from both the Spanish and the French HS network?

In an ideal world where funds are unlimited yes you can start investing on the Basque Y from time 0 in parallel with other projects. But in reality if Refe had focused first to the Vitoria-Zaragoza connection or at least to the Vitoria-Valladolid connection, today the Basque country could have access to the AVE network, maybe even much earlier than today, and in the mean time could have made some revenues out of this line, which could help to proceed to the next reasonable step which is to connect Bilbao to the network and after that at later point of time, the third reasonable step to connect San Sebastian. Step by step. 

In the end you would have the same result but the whole process would have been speeded up due to the earlier revenues and the biggest acceptance of the project by the public who sees the benefits of the AVE network earlier.


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## Suburbanist

Au contraire, I think it is best to start at the most difficult and expensive sectors such that there is enormous political and social pressure to complete full links afterwards.


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## arctic_carlos

Suburbanist said:


> I still hope a new French government might approve funds to build a Toulouse-Zaragoza HSL on the French side.


Perhaps they should complete first and foremost Montpellier - Perpignan and Bordeaux - Hendaye (or at least up to Dax). It make sense to complete the main corridors on both sides of the border before starting new lines. 

And well, I honestly think that two HSR connections between France and Spain are more than enough. Between Huesca and Pau the classic line needs a complete overhaul and a reopenig of the closed section in France (Bedous - Canfranc, including the international tunnel), as well as the regauging of the Spanish part to standard gauge. That would be enough to make that line attractive to freight trains. With regards to passenger services, there could be some Zaragoza - Pau services, but maybe it's too optimistic to think about Zaragoza - Toulouse services (even TGV between Barcelona and Toulouse were discontinued in the winter season due to low patronage).


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## kbbcn

Maybe they should start by better using the (expensive) tunnel that already exists. There are still only maximum 7 passenger trains between Figueres and Perpignan each day. With so many more AVEs arriving at Figueres and TGVs leaving from Perpignan, a shuttle between would be the most logical thing to do.


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## Suburbanist

I think with better connections the Mid-Pyrenees could see a development boom like the Westerns Alps had. Imagine if Jaca becomes something like Annecy or Albertville, and if the valley is heavily built up north. Or if they build a railway through Biescas and then some spur east so that Monte Perdido becomes a heavily visited place like the Eiger or Mottherhorn. I feel Pyreneean mountains are passed over and ignored by many because it is not exactly easy to reach them, there is limited infrastructure at their foothills, it is not like you can make a day-trip up and down from a nearby mid-size city (like you can visit the Junfgrau out of Bern or the Zugspitze out of the 2nd largest German city). So fast rail link to the Pyrenees would spur a lot of mountain development, not necessarily for skiing but things like gondolas, easy trails, view and vantage points, hillside hotels etc.


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## clickgr

A Mid-Pyrenees high speed line, if ever made, will not be meant to serve the mountains. No matter how tourist the Pyrenees can become, there is no chance they will ever generate enough traffic, similar to this generated by the big metropolitan areas, to justify the need of a high speed line there. The objective of this line will be to connect the significant from business perspective metropolitan area of Toulouse to Zaragoza, Madrid, Barcelona and further to other areas in Spain, and especially for freight purposes.

Most probably such a line will not have any station right at the Pyrenees mountains, at least not somewhere closer than Huesca or Tarbes. Even in the most tourist Alpine French resorts which are served by TGV, there are no high speed lines there, there are just TGV trains arriving to small towns using conventional lines. Cities near the ski resorts and other tourist destinations like Jaca do not need HSR stations. They just need better connection to the AVE network via conventional lines. The line between Huesca and Jaca for example could be modernized in order to be served by more efficient schedules than it now has, but a 300km/h line from Huesca to Jaca just to serve the tourism is definitely too much. Especially as long as the Zaragoza-Huesca section is not even a real high speed line.

By the way this Tardienta station is a big joke! You travel with 200km/h between Zaragoza and Tardienta and with 160km/h between Tardienta and Huesca, and any benefit in time you get from these speeds is ruined by the additional 20 minutes the train needs just to make the stop in Tardienta. It is ridiculous, it losses the meaning of the high speed rail even of such a type!


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## Sunfuns

About Spain-France HSR: I think we'll just need to accept the fact that there simply aren't millions and millions of passengers who'd like to travel between those two countries regardless of cost and speed. I've crossed the border between various countries via rail many times and in the stretch which actually crosses the border the train is always significantly emptier than before or after. About 10 trains a day is probably already at a limit of demand.


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## roaddor

Gusiluz said:


> The white sections are those where you do not know what will happen: new platform or mixed gauge?


What is the story behind the different, non European gauge in Spain?


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## 00Zy99

In the 19th Century, a break-of-gauge was a defense mechanism, slowing down invading armies. That's the same reason for Russia and India. Technically, it still can serve the same purpose today.


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## Gusiluz

^^ I'm sorry, but that's very widespread urban legends.
The greatest historian specialized in railway history has not found any reference.
In the case of Spain was to have wider locomotives to have greater power.



Gusiluz said:


> Está basada en el *Informe Subercasse* (Real Orden de 31/12/1844, (más en #*45* ) que, entre otras cosas, dice:
> 
> “Demostrada ya la conveniencia de que haya uniformidad en las dimensiones transversales de todas las grandes líneas de caminos de hierro, es claro que deben adoptarse las que los principios teóricos, confirmados por el buen éxito de su aplicación a los caminos más recientes, designan como más ventajosas. En ancho de vía generalmente empleado hasta pocos años hace, y que se emplea en muchas partes, es de 5 pies 17 centésimas (1,44 m), pero en un país virgen, donde se empieza a establecer un sistema de caminos de hierro, debe adoptase una anchura que permita caminar por ellos con toda la rapidez y seguridad que pueden obtenerse con las últimas perfecciones que han recibido las locomotoras. Para este efecto, conviene aumentar el ancho de las vías, y esta es la tendencia que generalmente se observa en el día. Así vemos en el camino de Londres a Yarmouth una vía de 5,45 pies (1,52 metros), en el de Dundee a Forfar de 6,03 pies (1,68 m), en el de Great Western de 7,64 pies (2,13 m) y en el de Petersburgo a Tzárskoye Selo de 6,57 (1,83 m). La Comisión del Parlamento ingles, encargada de informar sobre un sistema general de caminos de hierro en Irlanda, proponía 6,75 pies (1,88 m). Nosotros hemos adoptado 6 pies (1,67 m), porque sin aumentar considerablemente los gastos de establecimiento del camino, permite locomotoras de dimensiones suficientes para producir en un tiempo dado la cantidad de vapor bastante para obtener, con la misma carga, una velocidad mayor que la que podría conseguirse con las vías de 4,25 pies (1,18 m), propuestas por una de las empresas que ha hecho proposiciones al Gobierno, y mayor también de la que podría emplearse con las de 5,17 pies (1,44 m) que más frecuentemente se han usado hasta ahora, consiguiéndose, además, que sin disminuir la estabilidad se puede hacer mayor el diámetro de las ruedas, lo que también conduce a aumentar la velocidad".
> 
> En 1855 el ancho quedó definido en la Ley General de Ferrocarriles. El ministro de la Guerra, Ros de Olano, había dirigido una comunicación manifestando que su Ministerio se mantenía neutral acerca de esta cuestión. (Apéndice núm. 57 a la Memoria de Obras Públicas de 1856)
> 
> Según Jesús Moreno en su libro _Prehistoria del ferrocarril_ sobre la Ley General de Ferrocarriles de 1855:
> 
> Comenzaba la comisión insinuando lo contrario de lo que pretendía demostrar, es decir, la maravilla de que "los trenes partidos del Volga llegarían sin dificultad hasta el Estrecho de Gibraltar". Mas, ¡ay!, los pobres europeos, debido a haber acogido el invento del ferrocarril cuando aún no estaba perfeccionado, se veían, hoy día, obligados a mantener una vía estrecha e imperfecta y, mucho peor aún, a seguir instalándola en las nuevas construcciones, pues "la manera antigua de construir prevalece, porque la unidad y la continuidad simétrica del trayecto la libertan de la ley del progreso a que no podía ya someterse sin graves inconvenientes". Sin embargo, nosotros, que adoptamos más tarde las vías de hierro, "podemos consultar la ciencia sin temor y seguir sus inspiraciones con la seguridad de la convicción". De esta consulta se deduce más estabilidad, caldera de mayor diámetro, más capacidad de evaporación y más espacio para los mecanismos, es decir, los trasnochados argumentos de los partidarios de las vías anchas de hacía veinte arios. ¿Estaba justificado desechar esta magnífica vía ancha por el simple hecho de que “no se ajusta a la que se halla establecida en las líneas de Francia?. Muy grave error sería, por cierto, ya se atienda al porvenir y ya al momento presente". Por lo que se refería al futuro, la idea de unir París con Lisboa tenía "más de especioso que de sólido", puesto que "en los grandes trayectos hay poblaciones y puentes [sic], registros y aduanas, cambios de viajeros, composturas de carruajes, ocurrencias imprevistas que interrumpen su marcha; los vagones se reponen; se admiten nuevos pasajeros; hay paradas inevitables, y no siempre se ajustan las líneas a los pasos difíciles donde una alteración interrumpe su igualdad absoluta".
> Por lo que se refiere al momento presente, entre las líneas construidas y puestas en construcción, contamos con una longitud de 1.317 km. Podría acometerse el estrechamiento de la vía, pero otra cosa sucede con el material rodante contratado para las líneas ya concedidas y puestas en ejecución. Habría que indemnizar a los empresarios y el estado de nuestro Tesoro no lo permite.
> El coste de la conversión, a finales de 1854, podría estimarse en unos 28,3 millones de pesetas, cantidad que el Gobierno hubiera tenido que abonar a los concesionarios durante el período 1855/57. Dado que las subvenciones ferroviarias, desembolsadas por el Estado en este período, fueron de 48,5 millones de pesetas, la operación hubiera significado incrementar éstas en un 58,5 %.


Also happened in the United Kingdom, and there the military problem does not exist.


Gusiluz said:


> El ancho estándar (también llamado de Stephenson: 1.435 mm) es llamado así por ser, con diferencia, el más difundido en el mundo. George Stephenson comenzó la construcción de su primera locomotora (_Locomotion_) en la mina Killingworth, que tenía un ancho de vía de 1.422 mm; si lo hubiese hecho en la mina Wylam, donde también estuvo, seguramente su ancho hubiese sido de 1.524 mm. Cuando inicia su carrera de ingeniero y proyecta el FC de la mina Hetton y el de Stockton-Darlington (el primero del mundo, el 27/09/1825) emplea ese mismo ancho. Al proyectar el Liverpool-Manchester (primero de viajeros, el 15/09/1830), lo incrementó en media pulgada (hasta 1.435 mm) para aumentar el juego de vía, ya que la distancia entre las ruedas de sus vehículos continuó invariable.
> Ese ancho se difundió rápidamente, puesto que las líneas nuevas se unían a la de Liverpool-Manchester, o eran proyectadas por Stephenson, su hijo, o sus discípulos. También viajó a Europa, EE UU y a otros lugares mostrando su invento; ¡incluso a España!.
> La primera línea con otro ancho fue rusa, (San Petersburgo-Tsarskoie, en 1837), con ancho de 1.830 mm para poder aumentar el tamaño de la caldera ante las duras condiciones climáticas, pero la locomotora fue fabricada por Robert Stephenson y Cía. y su caldera era igual de estrecha. Sin embargo, su segunda línea (San Petersburgo-Moscú) fue construida con ancho “sureño” (1.524 mm) por ingenieros americanos.
> En 1836 se autorizó una línea en Escocia con un ancho de 1.676 mm. Por otra parte, la Eastern Counties inauguró la línea Londres-Yarmouth en 1839 con el de 1.524 mm, lo que forzó a Northern & Eastern a hacer lo propio; en 1844 se dieron cuenta de que se quedarían aislados y cambiaron su ancho al de Stephenson.
> Ingenieros alemanes de Baden propusieron un ancho de 1.500 mm y después de 2.100, ya que una caldera mayor consume relativamente menos combustible. Al final la línea Mannheim-Heidelberg se inauguró en 1840 con 1.600 mm; cambió el ancho en 1855.
> En Irlanda también se construyó con el ancho de 1.600 mm, que incluso está en Australia.
> En 1835 el ingeniero de Great Western, Isambard Kingdom Brunel, propuso el ancho de 2.130 mm para poder colocar ruedas más altas y así reducir la resistencia de la rodadura; también usó el argumento de que los carruajes de caballos medían 1,98 m y al situar las ruedas por fuera del mismo resultaba ese ancho (¡!).
> 
> Bueno, ya tenemos el lío de los anchos en el Reino Unido de mediados del XIX. Pero, ¿cómo no se daban cuenta del enorme error que cometían?. Según Jesús Moreno en su libro _Prehistoria del ferrocarril_:
> 
> “Hubo varios factores que, bien aislada o conjuntamente, explican un hecho tan insólito. El más importante eran las expectativas de beneficio a corto y medio plazo. En efecto, las compañías que decidieron apartarse del ancho normal estaban convencidas de que su principal fuente de beneficios sería el tráfico propio de la línea y, en consecuencia, despreciaron el tráfico afluente que en un futuro más o menos lejano podría aportarles la conexión con otras líneas.
> Otro factor que propiciaba la ruptura del ancho de vía era la escasa importancia concedida a los transbordos. Era práctica común que los viajeros cambiaran de coche al pasar de una línea a otra, cuando éstas pertenecían a diferentes compañías, de manera que nadie encontraba inconveniente en realizar esta misma operación en los puntos de ruptura del ancho. En cuanto a los transbordos de las mercancías, éstos eran de poco volumen y su coste insignificante.”
> Un hombre tan revolucionario como Brunel, que diseñó un sistema de transbordo de mercancías (que no funcionó), creyó que las compañías "nunca confiarían sus propios vehículos en manos ajenas".
> 
> La llamada “*guerra de los anchos*” comenzó en Gloucester en 1844, donde llegaban los trenes de vía ancha (2.130 mm) y normal (1.435), y su “campo de batalla” fue el Parlamento. La Cámara de los Comunes aprobó el 20/06/1845 las líneas de vía ancha Oxford a Rugby, y de Oxford a Worcester y Wolverhampton, con feroz oposición de los representantes de la vía normal, que consiguieron que en el tramo Oxford-Worcester se instalase un tercer carril.
> Como consecuencia de todo esto, en 1845 se creó una Comisión para estudiar el ancho idóneo, donde declararon los presidentes e ingenieros de las diversas compañías defendiendo “su ancho”. Los ingenieros independientes mantenían que la vía ancha era desmesurada, y que la normal era un poco estrecha. Se hicieron pruebas y comprobaron que en la vía ancha se llevaba la misma carga a mayor velocidad y con mayor comodidad, a pesar de lo cual la Comisión aconsejó estrechar las líneas de vía ancha al ancho normal único. Pero la Cámara de los Comunes consideró desmesurado el coste y se limitó a prohibir las nuevas líneas “para viajeros” en ancho distinto al normal, salvo las prolongaciones de las líneas antiguas. Así que la vía ancha siguió extendiéndose y en 1854 contaba con 1.900 km, además de otros 600 con tercer carril.
> 
> Finalmente, ante la extensión del ancho normal, la vía ancha comenzó a ser cambiada a partir de 1865, finalizándose el proceso el 23/05/1892. Mientras, la normalización internacional del ancho de Stephenson como ancho “preferente” no se produjo hasta la Conferencia de Berna en 1907.
> En el 2000, del millón cien mil km que forman la red mundial, el 59 % tiene un ancho de 1.435 mm, el 21,2 % es mayor y el 19,8 menor.


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## Gusiluz

^^ In the haste I forgot something obvious to disprove the theory; If you want to better prevent an invasion: put tracks narrower, not wider.

The wide gauge can be narrowed: the german army narrowed 28,700 km of tracks in its advance by the USSR between 1941 and 1943. If you want to prevent an invasion, it is best to install tracks with a smaller gauge that will prevent the advance in tunnels and bridges.


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## Metred

clickgr said:


> The biggest waste of money for me in all those projects is the Y shape line in the Basque country. Why the hell do you need to connect all these 3 Basque cities (Bilbao, Vitoria and St. Sebastian) via high speed line, given the very difficult terrain of the Basque country side for building HSR lines and given the close distance they are located these 3 cities one another?
> 
> They should have built just one HS line connecting the biggest and more industrialized of them (Bilbao) to Madrid or even better to Zaragoza and then via the existing Madrid-Barcelona line to Madrid and to Barcelona. The other two cities if they are not on the way of this new line could have access to the HS network simply via conventional lines connected to the new HS line at some intermediate station.
> 
> The Basque Y line is a nice to have but for its huge construction cost I think there are other lines to give priority in construction, like for example connecting Barcelona to Valencia or Seville to Malaga.
> 
> At least they could have finish first the section Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria before they start building the Basque Y. From commercial point of view it would make much more sense.


The logic behind the Basque Y is pretty straightforward if one starts thinking about it, even if we see it as individual parts: on one hand we have the interest of linking Bilbao, the most important city in the north, with Madrid (and from there everywhere else). From a technical perspective, Vitoria-Gasteiz is the easiest of the Basque capitals to reach from Castile, due to it being located south of the Basque mountains on a relatively flat land, so it's only logical that the link would start there. A Madrid-Vitoria-Bilbao HSL connection makes much sense given the demographic and economic weight of Bilbao.

However, the Basque Country is not located on *any* corner of the country, but actually bordering France on one of the two places where you can easily cross the mountainous border. A HSL connection with Europe already exists in the Mediterranean, but the interest is to have another one in the Atlantic. To that we add the fact that the San Sebastian-Irun area is heavily industrialised and the Irun-Hendaia are has always been a hotspot for freight rail. Note that the eastern part of the Basque Y is not actually Vitoria-San Sebastian, but Vitoria-Irun, with a small branch to San Sebastian. The main interest is to connect with the French border.

So the logic behind both Madrid-Vitoria-Bilbao (demographic and economic connections) and Madrid-Vitoria-Irun (connection to France and Europe) are pretty clear in my opinion. The only that could be considered additional is the Bilbao-San Sebastian branch, although I think its long-term benefits are evident (connecting Bilbao to Europe).

There's some uncertainty about the Basque Y due to the fact that it _will_ be isolated for any other network for some time, but it still should help to improve the times between Madrid and Bilbao, and as the Basque railways company is interested in providing the services between the capitals and there are important movements between them (especially Bilbao-Vitoria), the services could very well have good numbers. 

In my opinion the Basque Y should have had preference over other parts of the network, such as the branch to Leon or the Galicia inner network.


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## alserrod

437.001 said:


> So to speak.
> 
> 
> 
> Right.
> 
> 
> 
> Er... not exactly.
> 
> Zaragoza-Tardienta is an entirely new line, which runs parallel to the old classic line (which is still in use).
> Tardienta-Huesca didn't exactly change gauge, it was a 3rd rail that was added. What was changed was the OHLE and its tension.
> As for its maximum speeds, you were right.
> 
> But I guess you already knew.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> On the other hand, the map above included Valencia-Castellon as a HSL, which is debatable.
> 
> And they include Castejon-Pamplona, which as far as I'm aware, it only barely started works in a very small section, then these were halted and there's no way they're going ahead anytime soon.



In addition... choose between calling at Tardienta or running at 30 km/h


Tardienta-Huesca was de-electrified for classic trains (freight and regionals)


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## clickgr

Metred said:


> The logic behind the Basque Y is pretty straightforward if one starts thinking about it, even if we see it as individual parts: on one hand we have the interest of linking Bilbao, the most important city in the north, with Madrid (and from there everywhere else). From a technical perspective, Vitoria-Gasteiz is the easiest of the Basque capitals to reach from Castile, due to it being located south of the Basque mountains on a relatively flat land, so it's only logical that the link would start there. A Madrid-Vitoria-Bilbao HSL connection makes much sense given the demographic and economic weight of Bilbao.
> 
> However, the Basque Country is not located on *any* corner of the country, but actually bordering France on one of the two places where you can easily cross the mountainous border. A HSL connection with Europe already exists in the Mediterranean, but the interest is to have another one in the Atlantic. To that we add the fact that the San Sebastian-Irun area is heavily industrialised and the Irun-Hendaia are has always been a hotspot for freight rail. Note that the eastern part of the Basque Y is not actually Vitoria-San Sebastian, but Vitoria-Irun, with a small branch to San Sebastian. The main interest is to connect with the French border.
> 
> So the logic behind both Madrid-Vitoria-Bilbao (demographic and economic connections) and Madrid-Vitoria-Irun (connection to France and Europe) are pretty clear in my opinion. The only that could be considered additional is the Bilbao-San Sebastian branch, although I think its long-term benefits are evident (connecting Bilbao to Europe).
> 
> There's some uncertainty about the Basque Y due to the fact that it _will_ be isolated for any other network for some time, but it still should help to improve the times between Madrid and Bilbao, and as the Basque railways company is interested in providing the services between the capitals and there are important movements between them (especially Bilbao-Vitoria), the services could very well have good numbers.
> 
> In my opinion the Basque Y should have had preference over other parts of the network, such as the branch to Leon or the Galicia inner network.


The logic is well understood. As I said the priority in construction given to this line does not make sense to me. 

The plan for a future Y shape line to connect the 3 main Basque cities with the Spanish and the French HS rail network is correct, the wrong is that its construction was set for the decade of 2000 on high speed standards, well before first to be ensured that this line can be linked easily to the rest of the Spanish and the French HSR network. It doesn't make sense to connect all these 3 cities with HS line if you haven’t connected any of them to Madrid, and it doesn't make scene to start building a line towards the French boarder if you are not sure when and if there will be a high speed connection to the other side.

However, I agree that there should be a priority to connect the Basque country in general with Madrid and other important Spanish cities, over the lines in other Spanish regions with less economic and demographic weight. 

Given the difficulty of the Basque terrain, the high construction costs for HSR there and the status of the other Spanish HS lines in the mid 00's when the construction of the Basque Y started, for me the most logical step would be to start first with building a HS line between Vitoria and Zaragoza. This line could have been implemented much easier and earlier than the Basque Y or the Madrid-Valladolid-Vitoria section and could give easy access for the entire Basque country to the rest of the existing HS network and most importantly easy access to both Madrid and Barcelona, the two most important cities and metropolitan areas from business, cultural and demographical perspective, not only in Spain but among the most important ones in the whole Europe. Perhaps some modernization could occur at the same time in order to improve time schedules between Vitoria, Bilbao and San Sebastian via the existing classical lines. 

HS connection between Vitoria and Bilbao should have come at second place and HS connection between those two cities and the French border in San Sebastian area should have been considered only when the French side announces a clear plan for extension of its LGV network to this border (or under commitment between the two countries).

It is really a pity that the strategical position of Zaragoza in relation to the AVE network for the entire north-east Spain has not been exploited as it could. The new built, big, modern but now empty and cold central station of Zaragoza would be ideal to accommodate more AVE and non-AVE rail services and play the role of a main hub for connections. I see a lot of potential there.


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## Suburbanist

clickgr said:


> It is really a pity that the strategical position of Zaragoza in relation to the AVE network for the entire north-east Spain has not been exploited as it could. *The new built, big, modern but now empty and cold central station of Zaragoza *would be ideal to accommodate more AVE and non-AVE rail services and play the role of a main hub for connections. I see a lot of potential there.


Is Zaragoza Delicias that empty?


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## clickgr

^^ There are schedules but compared to the size of the station, it is pretty much empty most of the time. The bus station located in the same complex is more busy than the train station, there is only one coffee place inside, no other stores and the station hotel is also very empty (I am not sure if it is open at all).


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## Sunfuns

Zaragoza AVE station is not an architectural marvel for sure, but it does fulfil its purpose. Fastest way to travel to both Barcelona and Madrid.


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## arctic_carlos

Zaragoza Delicias station has an intensive use, especially regarding trips towards Barcelona and Madrid, but also towards Andalusia and northern Spain.

However, as Zaragoza is a large city without a metropolitan area in accordance with its size, trains aren't much used for local and regional services. That's a big difference when you compare it with cities like Barcelona, Valencia, Seville or even Málaga and Bilbao, which are smaller in size as cities.

As a result, Zaragoza Delicias station perhaps doesn't have the hustle and bustle typical of large train stations which can be found in Seville Santa Justa, Valencia Nord or Barcelona Sants. But it's not a white elephant.


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Is Zaragoza Delicias that empty?


No, but many sides are empty.


There are rent a car offices, torism office ans so on. But it could be greater


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## clickgr

Sunfuns said:


> Zaragoza AVE station is not an architectural marvel for sure, but it does fulfil its purpose. Fastest way to travel to both Barcelona and Madrid.


It is not that it does not fulfil its purpose. The issue here is that it has been designed to fulfil many more purposes than it actually does.


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## alserrod

strongly agree


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## Sunfuns

clickgr said:


> It is not that it does not fulfil its purpose. The issue here is that it has been designed to fulfil many more purposes than it actually does.


And those would be?


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## clickgr

Sunfuns said:


> And those would be?


More traffic basically. You do not need all those platforms with all those waiting rooms and check in desks plus the underground connection hall just to serve one high speed line (Barcelona-Madrid) and a very few other regional routes. You do not either need such a big station which could accommodate dozens of stores for such a traffic. 

The station in the winter time is extremely cold due to very few people are inside, it would be a waste of money to open the heat in such a huge empty indoor space. As a consequence the few travellers have to stay inside those ugly glassy boxes with portable heating while waiting for their train. Waiting on the platforms or anywhere else is the same as waiting outside in the cold and there are almost no other stores/restaurants around to kill your time. For this traffic it would be much better to have a smaller and warmer station instead.


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## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> And those would be?


there are passenegers but few trains start/finish there and people stay few time in the station


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## Bitxofo

arctic_carlos said:


> Today is the 25th anniversary of the Madrid - Seville HSL, the beginning of high speed rail (AVE) in Spain and consequently a game-changer in the development of rail transport in the country. :banana: :banana:


^^I was living in Seville at that time.

The AVE was inaugurated in April the 14th, 1992.
But yes, April the 21st for commercial service with passengers!
kay:


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## alserrod

Since this month, every 25th, 25.000 tickets for AVE at 25 euro


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## Gusiluz

*25 years of high speed in Spain*

Data from the FFE publication: Atlas Alta Velocidad Ferroviaria en España. In English this is another one during the 20th anniversary.

We had to wait 25 years, but at last we have the actual data (with nuances) of HS passengers. The real ones. Including Alvia and T200 in the sections in which they circulate by HSR.
The brands of HS services in Spain are: AVE (long distance, fixed standard gauge, 300 km/h), Alvia (long distance, variable gauge, 250 km/h on HSR / 220 on conventional lines), Avant (middle distance and commuter, fixed standard gauge, 250 km/h).

So far we were given the data of what they called AVE-LD (ministry), which are those of all LD (including nocturnal) but without Avant (!); AVE and Avant (Spanish statistics); and even (when interested, for example: the very powerful defense groups at airports and motorways) only AVE.

Nevertheless, they would also need all passengers in Alvia (although all their trip was about conventional) since that's how they give the data in Germany, France, Italy ... call HS passengers to all who climbed on a TGV, ICE or Frecce. All the details in: How many high-speed passenger in the world?

However, according to Renfe / Fomento / INE, the total was 191,522 M in AVE (179,323 according to FFE) and 80,001 M in Avant (79,948 according to FFE).
In 2016 Fomento published 20,352 M in AVE (20,346 according to FFE) and 7,3631 M in Avant (7,3052 according to FFE).
In the maps on density there are no Alvia to Galicia, nothing of the inaugurated in 2015 and 2016 nor the Avant of the Atlantic Axis (2015).



25 years of AVE have been 325,373 M passengers (13 M average per year); 179,323 M in AVE trains (55.1%), 66,102 M in Alvia and T200 only by HSR (20.3%) and 79.948 M in Avant (24.6%).
118,089 M of passengers-km (4,724 M of average per year); 80.149.7 M in AVE trains (67.9%), 27.633.0 M in Alvia and T200 only in HSR (23.4%) and 10,306.3 M in Avant (8.7%).
To give us an idea, in 2016 there were 410 M of passengers and 7,818 M of passengers-km in Cercanías (commuter), while in HS they were 34,694 M of passengers and 13,429 M of passengers-km (in total they traveled 71.8% more).
In 2016 there were 11.4692 M of Passengers and 4 771.5 M of Passengers-km in what they call conventional LD; of them, 61% are from Alvia on LAV and 65% are Alvia passengers (by any line) of what they call "conventional LD".

Density AV (AVE, Alvia y Avant):


Density AVE:


Density Alvia:


Density Avant:


Main routes:


Average speeds 1986 and 2016:


Evolution of travel times since 1942:


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## Gusiluz

*Second lot of Talgo Avril*

During the ceremony, the government announced that will exert the purchase option for the second lot of 15 Talgo Avril trains, although the latter will be of variable gauge.

The first 15 trains (106 series) from the year 2020 and the calculation of the second series (122 series) from 2024 to 2027.

The Talgo Avril G3 trains have two locomotives and 12 trailers, 519 seats in a length of 202 meters, 3200 mm wide complying with the UIC clearance gauge, 8,800 kW with ABB traction chain, and a top speed of 330 km/h.













Current prototype:


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## chornedsnorkack

Where on these maps and tables is Madrid-Toledo high speed railway?


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## Gusiluz

Are only 20.7 km, you have to look at the line from Madrid to the south, a very small line to the left:


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## Suburbanist

Gus Luiz, thank you for these detailed graphs and tables.


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## Sunfuns

Thanks a lot for the detailed data! Looking at this I was wondering whether perhaps the equilibrium with other modes of traffic has not yet been reached on newer lines (everything except Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Zaragoza). Otherwise difficult to explain why, for example, Cordoba-Sevilla branch is more busy than Cordoba-Malaga and why Madrid-Valencia is not just as busy as Madrid-Sevilla. Even Madrid-Barcelona might not have reached it's full potential yet. Read elsewhere that it's 60% train vs plane. Given the travel time foreign experience indicates that it should be closer to 80%.


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## Gusiluz

^^ You Are Welcome.

Seville is much larger than Malaga, and Cordoba-Seville traffic benefits from the Alvia to Cadiz: 766,000 in 2016.

Madrid-Valencia is at 89.6% with the plane, little can increase. The problem is that the road is free.

Madrid-Barcelona is now (all 2016) at 62.9%, and up. 
The problem is that there are a large number of business passengers going to the Madrid Airport area (IFEMA trade show, Juan Carlos I business park, industrial estates...) which is closer to the airport than to the Atocha station. A pity.


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## Rebasepoiss

How up to date is this map today?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ I would say it's 100% updated, since it includes the most recent openings in 2015 (Valladolid - León and Olmedo - Zamora), and there haven't been any significant changes ever since.


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## alserrod

I would say that between Teruel and Zaragoza, there are some streches where trains can run 200 but with some limits up to 20, hence they do not speed too much because they will have to stop soon.

In addition, all trains are limited to 160. I would erase from list...


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## Gusiluz

*Calendar schedule*

^^ Small details
Medina AV-Salamanca is the conventional line but electrified, no HSR.
Sevilla-Cádiz is fully finished except ERTMS.
Xátiva-La Encina (between Valencia and Alicante) is at 200 km/h but it is necessary to change the gauge after making a new track for the traffic in Iberian gauge.

It's very good.

Obviously the section Plasencia-Badajoz will open in Iberian gauge when being isolated.



This is what I have found as announced by Fomento (or by the Subdelegates of Government, Senators ...) to the media as a result of the presentation - pending discussion and approval - of the Budgets for 2017 (I simply transcribe what was announced, obviating the barbarities):

Valencia-Castellón: in tests since 03/20/2017. € 222 million to € 3.02 million per km (single track of mixed gauge-third rail).
Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (link north and south lines of Madrid): end of works in the first quarter of 2018. 826 M € to 23,80 M € per km.
Antequera-Granada: end of the works in November 2017 and in service in March 2018. 2 h 45 m Madrid (205 km/h on average, previously announced 2 h 50 m), 2 h from Seville (174 km/h) and 58 m from Malaga (165 km/h on average). A total investment of 1,870 M € (13.91 per km including 28 km of mixed gauge).
Monforte del Cid-Murcia: end of the works in December 2017.
LAV Madrid-Barcelona-Vilaseca (Tarragona)-L'Ametlla (Vandellós): tests in the first quarter of 2018.
Node of Venta de Baños-Burgos: end of the works before summer of 2018.
Astigarraga (San Sebastián) - French border: 20.5 km with mixed gauge (at 8 M x ​​km of double track) so that, in 2019, some Euroduplex Océane can be circulated to Paris.
LAP Plasencia-Badajoz: end of works at the end of 2019; In service at the beginning of 2020 and Plasencia-Badajoz electrification by the end of 2020.
Valencia-Xátiva-Nudo de la Encina: end of works in the third quarter of 2019. 51.8 km of new standard double track and change gauge to 41.2 km.
Zamora-Pedralba: in service at the end of 2018 with station in Otero de Sanabria, Pedralba-Ourense in phase of tests at the end of 2019 with a gauge changer in Taboadela: for Alvias in the 1st phase and for Lugo and Ferrol in the 2nd and with mixed gauge Taboadela-Ourense.
Y Basque: according to the Basque minister: "being tremendously optimistic, the works could conclude in 2022, although I think it will be from 2023."
Murcia-Almería: 2023
Pajares variant: the West tunnel in service at the beginning of 2019 unless the gauge has to be changed, in which case it would be 2021 according to the Asturian adviser :bash: :bash: :bash:


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## Sunfuns

Gusiluz said:


> This is what I have found as announced by Fomento (or by the Subdelegates of Government, Senators ...) to the media as a result of the presentation - pending discussion and approval - of the Budgets for 2017 (I simply transcribe what was announced, obviating the barbarities):


I'm not at all sure they could be trusted, but if yes then it's not so bad... 



Gusiluz said:


> Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (link north and south lines of Madrid): end of works in the first quarter of 2018. 826 M € to 23,80 M € per km.


Is it right that after this is in service there will be no more overlap between Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Valencia/Alicante routes? 



Gusiluz said:


> Antequera-Granada: end of the works in November 2017 and in service in March 2018. 2 h 45 m Madrid (205 km/h on average, previously announced 2 h 50 m), 2 h from Seville (174 km/h) and 58 m from Malaga (165 km/h on average). A total investment of 1,870 M € (13.91 per km including 28 km of mixed gauge).


This is great, albeit of course one has to remember that Granada-Sevilla is quite circuitous and thus it's only a bit longer with a car and many will probably prefer driving. The other two routes will be more successful as driving to Madrid takes longer than most people are willing to do and Malaga will be almost within a commuting distance and probably with a frequent Avant service plus very attractive for all the tourists. 



Gusiluz said:


> LAV Madrid-Barcelona-Vilaseca (Tarragona)-L'Ametlla (Vandellós): tests in the first quarter of 2018.


I know it's been an endless discussion, but if we look at Barcelona-Valencia route as a whole will it all be third rail? What kind of service one could expect there in the future- AVE or Alvia? 



Gusiluz said:


> Node of Venta de Baños-Burgos: end of the works before summer of 2018.


Any idea how much time this would save for those going to Burgos and those going further to Bilbao? 




Gusiluz said:


> Astigarraga (San Sebastián) - French border: 20.5 km with mixed gauge (at 8 M x ​​km of double track) so that, in 2019, some Euroduplex Océane can be circulated to Paris.


How does that help before Basque Y is finished? 



Gusiluz said:


> Valencia-Xátiva-Nudo de la Encina: end of works in the third quarter of 2019. 51.8 km of new standard double track and change gauge to 41.2 km.


This is taking a lot longer than I expected. I was under impression this route was almost finished already last year... 



Gusiluz said:


> Zamora-Pedralba: in service at the end of 2018 with station in Otero de Sanabria, Pedralba-Ourense in phase of tests at the end of 2019 with a gauge changer in Taboadela: for Alvias in the 1st phase and for Lugo and Ferrol in the 2nd and with mixed gauge Taboadela-Ourense.


I guess no one is predicting yet when a full AVE service is going to reach A Coruna... Of course better this than nothing. The amount of money spent on this route has been enormous. 



Gusiluz said:


> Y Basque: according to the Basque minister: "being tremendously optimistic, the works could conclude in 2022, although I think it will be from 2023."


This should have been a much higher priority in the past... 



Gusiluz said:


> Pajares variant: the West tunnel in service at the beginning of 2019 unless the gauge has to be changed, in which case it would be 2021 according to the Asturian adviser :bash: :bash: :bash:


This has been a true problem child of the entire Spanish HSR program. There was a tunnel in Southern Sweden which took 25 years to make with all the delays, hope you don't approach that record. But in any case what exactly is the latest plan on the route from Leon to the tunnel and then beyond? Which gauge?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^


Sunfuns said:


> I'm not at all sure they could be trusted, but if yes then it's not so bad...


Well, the first thing the minister said is that he has to rebuild the credibility of the ads. True, but I do not give you too much credibility, just serve to know your preferences.



> Is it right that after this is in service there will be no more overlap between Madrid-Sevilla and Madrid-Valencia/Alicante routes?


Absolutely. And I explain it because it is complex.
The routes from Chamartín and from Atocha to Torrejón are completely separated (the first passes below Atocha), but Chamartín is less central and is not prepared to admit many more destinations. In principle, it will be useful for trains between the North (Gijón, Santander ...) to reach the South and the East without making two changes of gauge in Madrid; These trains will only stop at Chamartín. Later, with the start of Murcia and Granada HSR, some trains to the South and East will leave from Chamartín, but we do not know which ones. Meanwhile, trains to Valencia/Alicante will follow the current route (Atocha-Sevilla HSR).



> I know it's been an endless discussion, but if we look at Barcelona-Valencia route as a whole will it all be third rail? What kind of service one could expect there in the future- AVE or Alvia?


Alvia S-130: standard gauge Barcelona-Camp de Tarragona, gauge changer and Iberian gauge to Valencia (Vandellós-Castellón it has not been done, so it has not been placed in Tarragona-Vandellós).



> Any idea how much time this would save for those going to Burgos and those going further to Bilbao?


Madrid-Burgos will pass from 2 h 20 m to 1 h 41 m (181 km / h), Madrid-Bilbao from 5 h 4 m to 4 h 25 m.



> How does that help before Basque Y is finished?


In nothing. I think it is only to circulate an HST (French, but HST) and it seems that the Basque Y is finished. When it is finished there will be another route between San Sebastián and the border. With almost 5 hours of travel to Paris I do not think there are many passengers.



> This is taking a lot longer than I expected. I was under impression this route was almost finished already last year...


Valencia-Xátiva was electrified last year, but as long as there is no continuity until La Encina ...



> I guess no one is predicting yet when a full AVE service is going to reach A Coruna... Of course better this than nothing. The amount of money spent on this route has been enormous.


When arriving in Ourense (2020) Alvia trains (then may be S-130 and S-120) will circulate entirely by HSR, but for AVE trains to need to change the gauge of Ourense-Santiago and Vigo-Coruña. It will take a lot.



> This should (Y Basque) have been a much higher priority in the past.


The terrorist band ETA (and a part of the Basque society) were always against.



> This has been a true problem child of the entire Spanish HSR program. There was a tunnel in Southern Sweden which took 25 years to make with all the delays, hope you don't approach that record. But in any case what exactly is the latest plan on the route from Leon to the tunnel and then beyond? Which gauge?


Until a month ago the forecast was to open a single tunnel in Iberian gauge in early 2019 (half of the rail is already installed) and thus would serve for freight trains (very important in Asturias) and for the Alvia, which would change gauge in León.
Now there is an Asturian party (To complicate it even more, its president was the impeller of the route of the tunnel) with a single deputy who will only support the government's budgets if they put standard gauge. Why? Because they do not know anything, nor have they talked to a technician in their life :bash:. It would suppose to put mixed gauge León-La Robla (two or three years) and a new gauge changer in Pola de Lena (to the North of the tunnel, and there is almost no space) because it is not viable to put mixed gauge until Gijón by the traffic and because they want that there is new HSR very expensive). In the end, the same Alvia trains would circulate (what else would change in one place than in another if the route would be the same?) Without gaining any time, they will not be able to move the goods (they say yes :nuts: :nuts, European aids will be lost and start-up will be delayed. They could put the second tunnel in standard more or less for those dates (2021), but no. And the worst thing is that it seems that the government is listening to them.


----------



## Sunfuns

One more thing - what about the second tunnel? Have they given up on saving that one?


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## Gusiluz

^^ At the moment they are satisfied with setting up the West tunnel; at the moment it is enough. The second tunnel serves as an emergency exit.
Another problem, less known, has been (and we will see ...) the stability of the slope of Campomanes (North of the tunnel); another huge problem.


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## bifhihher

Why is it bad for the minister to only support standard gauge? I think it is where whole Spain is evolving to, no?


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## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, at least the lines for passengers.
In this case the problem is that there is no standard gauge either north or south of the variant.

In all of them (except those with mixed gauge, of course), the new lines that are isolated from standard lines are installed in a multi-purpose sleepers: first the rail is placed in Iberian gauge (for example: in Galicia or shortly in Extremadura) and when there is continuity, are changed to standard gauge. Points are also prepared, although it is not as simple as many want to believe.

A video of a gauge change in Albacete_Almansa:

http://vimeo.com/60237799


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## 00Zy99

How long is the total conversion expected to take?

Will the freight lines join as well to some extent? I can imagine that it would be a huge boon to the international trading market to do so.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Total, the entire network? There is no plan for that.

I have always argued that the standard gauge is much more important for the transport of goods than for the passenger, the latter have easier to transfer. In addition to the fact that long distances benefit goods transport, and harm passengers to benefit the airplane.

Nowadays there is continuity in standard (or mixed gauge) from the tunnel of El Perthús (near Le Soler, Perpignan) to the port of Barcelona taking advantage of, in part, the HSR. But since 2010 the factory of Seat in Martorell is to 10 km of that line and have not put mixed gauge because the line is Cercanías and have to expand a tunnel.

There are plans (not works) to the port of Tarragona and from there to Castellón, where the mixed gauge reaches Valencia; a little further away is the Ford factory. In those plans is to put aside tracks of 750 meters.

Apart from that there are a multitude of HSRs with 400 meter aside tracks and large ramps, so they do not seem compatible with HST at 300 km/h.

Asturias (Pajares) is far from all that.


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## Gusiluz

*The definitive "solution" for Pajares*

The minister announced yesterday the final "solution" for Pajares:


> The two tubes of the tunnel will be opened at the same time with standard gauge and a changer gauge will be installed for freight trains. "Soon" will be able to offer a schedule for the Variant.


So far the official announcement was to put into service the West tunnel with Iberian gauge at the beginning of 2019.

It will mean putting mixed gauge between León and La Robla (32 km), changing the passage through León and installing a changer gauge for passengers trains and another for freight trains in Pola de Lena. Trains will remain Alvia (variable gauge) until a new line (or mixed gauge) is designed and built from Pola to Gijón (63 km).

I think it will be necessary to wait, at least, until 2021 and forget that freight trains run through the tunnel. The OGI system is too incipient. We will have to wait for what the European Commission says about aid for the construction of the tunnel.

More (in spanish) about the system in the test phase to change gauge (not change bogies) to freight wagons, just like the passenger trains.


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## JumpUp

There are several Talgo night trains in Spain
How old are those Talgo night trains and when have they been delivered

How old is the youngest Talgo night train that was put out of use? 
There are only a couple of night trains still running in Spain

Thanks


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## Gusiluz

The Madrid-Galicia trains are series IV (1980) V (1981) and VI (1989) and Barcelona-Galicia are VII (2009). The latter circulate through HSR between Barcelona and Zaragoza.
If I understand your question well, the IVs are now being withdrawn.


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## Gusiluz

*New tunnels in standard gauge under Madrid*

On wednesday the first train passed through the new tunnels in standard gauge under Madrid, which communicate the HSR of the South and East, with the one of the North.

It was the Séneca laboratory train in Palencia: 

Maybe I did not clarify it enough:
The laboratory train has been towed by a diesel locomotive, work on the HSR completion will end in the first quarter of 2018.


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## Gusiluz

*Schedule of HSR inaugurations*

Schedule of inaugurations according to the minister:

-Valencia-Castellón: in tests since 03/20/2017.
-Monforte del Cid-Murcia: tests at the end of 2017.
-Antequera-Granada: end of works in November 2017 and in service in March 2018.
-HSR Madrid-Barcelona (near Camp de Tarragona)-Vilaseca-L'Ametlla (Vandellós): tests in the first quarter of 2018.
-Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (under Madrid): end of works in the first quarter of 2018.
-Venta de Baños-Burgos: end of works before summer of 2018.
-Zamora-Pedralba: in service at the end of 2018.
-San Sebastián-Irún with mixed gauge so that, in 2019, some TGV Océane Euroduplex (they will have to put 3 kV) to Paris.
-Valencia-Xátiva-Nudo de la Encina: end of works in the third quarter of 2019.
-Pedralba-Ourense in test at the end of 2019 with a gauge-changer in Taboadela and two in Ourense. Taboadela-Ourense mixed gauge.
-Plasencia-Badajoz: end of works at the end of 2019, in service at the beginning of 2020 and electrification Plasencia-Badajoz by the end of 2020.
-Variante de Pajares: the two tubes will be opened at the same time in the second half of 2020 with standard gauge and a gauge-changer will be installed for the freight transport.
-Almodóvar bypass (Seville to Malaga and Granada): announced its bid for 2018 and in service in 2020.
-Vandellós-Castellón: end of works in the last quarter of 2019. One of the tracks with standard gauge and the other with mixed gauge.
-Y Basque: in 2023 to the capitals, Astigarraga-Lezo (French border) in 2025.
-Murcia-Almería: 2023.
-HSR Burgos-Vitoria: 2023.
-HSR Palencia-Aguilar de Campoo: undated, Informative Study elaborated.
-Castellbisbal-Vandellós: by 2015 a mixed track was promised (mountain side to Tarragona and sea side to Vandellós) to allow the passage of freight trains to the border, but now it is not defined.
-Plasencia de Jalón-Castejón-Pamplona-Ezquioga / Ichaso (Y Basque): Castejón-Villafranca: 14,7 km of finished platform, Villafranca-Olite: 15,3 km in works to begin in 2018. It seems from Landaben (Pamplona) to Ezquioga will be mixed gauge, although it is in negotiations.


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## Gusiluz

*Schemes of the new lines*

It is clear that drawing schemes is not my thing, but I hope it is understood or at least served to have an approximation.

Blue / black: standard gauge
Red: Iberian gauge
Green: mixed gauge

*Monforte-Murcia* (mayo 2017 I do not know for sure in El Reguerón):


*Nudo de Venta de Baños-Burgos*:


*Zamora-Pedralba*:


*Vandellós new bypass*:


Messages (in spanish) with the *details of the new HS lines*:

LAP Plasencia-Badajoz

LAV Antequera-Granada

LAV Palencia-Aguilar de Campoo. If the web does not work *Tranvía.org web*, it is also here, although more dispersed

Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco


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## Gusiluz

*Renfe plans to buy more AVE trains*

Renfe planea comprar más trenes AVE ante el aumento de la demanda El Economista de hoy. 
*Renfe plans to buy more AVE trains in response to increased demand. *



> Increased demand and strong medium-term growth forecasts have prompted the rail operator to prepare a plan to purchase more AVE trains just months after closing the purchase of 30 high-speed trains to Talgo.
> ...
> The AVE are full and you can not increase the offer in some corridors "such as the one that links Madrid and Barcelona or that connects the capital of Spain with Seville and Malaga.Although with the arrival of the first Avriles of Talgo (it is planned to receive the first In 2019) could increase the capacity of the corridors and, by extension, the supply of places, it is certain that the 30 AVEs are destined to cover the forecast of openings of high speed lines between 2020 and 2023.
> ...
> In any case, it would be a smaller competition than the one launched two years ago "
> ...
> The jewel of the crown of the AVE is the corridor between Madrid and Barcelona and the one that connects the Spanish capital with Seville and Malaga. These are the most profitable and demanded routes of the firm, which already makes 144 million euros with the operation of high speed. The Levante corridor is in financial equilibrium and the one that unites Madrid with Valladolid or León is one of the weakest of the network waiting for the connections with the North to be completed.


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## Suburbanist

Good news, considering 4 years ago the Financial Times, NYT and Bloomberg did news pieces on the "extravagant oversupply of Spanish high speed trains" parked at depots, using them as examples of excessive government spending.


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## Gusiluz

^^ The media say many things, and not all are true. 

In 2013 the material was already right on Fridays and Sundays


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## Sunfuns

@Gusiluz: do you maybe know what is the maximum capacity of Barcelona-Madrid line in trains per hour per direction? And how many carriages constitute the max length of the train? 16? 

I was just wondering in principle how closely this line could approach frequencies of Tokaido Shinkansen.


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## Silly_Walks

Gusiluz said:


> Schedule of inaugurations according to the minister:
> 
> -HSR Madrid-Barcelona (near Camp de Tarragona)-Vilaseca-L'Ametlla (Vandellós): tests in the first quarter of 2018.


Not Valencia-Barcelona?


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## Gusiluz

^^ Yes, the maximum length is 400 meters: 16 cars.

It has ETCS 2 between Madrid and Lleida, and they are putting it up to Barcelona, which will increase the capacity.

When we talk about the maximum capacity of the line they say it is one train per sense every 5 minutes and a half, and it will be (with ETCS 2) one every 2 and a half minutes, but I do not have reliable data.
There are also slower trains, at 250 km / h, and in the bypass to Zaragoza (not in the genral line) there is a single track section.
Except at certain times, there are no saturation problems on the line; there are more in the stations.


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## Gusiluz

Silly_Walks said:


> Not Valencia-Barcelona?


Yes, it will be used by the fastest trains (S-130) between Barcelona and Valencia. The trains will pass by Camp de Tarragona (not by Tarragona city) and from there to Castellón, Valencia, Alicante and Murcia.
Other trains (Talgo VI with locomotive S-252) will go through Tarragona city and stop in more stations.


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## AlexNL

> The AVE are full and you can not increase the offer in some corridors


So if you can't go longer and can't go more often... Euroduplex it is?


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## Gusiluz

^^ It could be the solution, but the tender was awarded to Talgo and its model AVRIL (S-106) with 521 seats in 201,9 meters and a single level, thanks to its wide box and its seats 2 + 2 in Preferente and 2 + 3 in Tourist.
Will be in service by 2020 (15 trains). And the same model, but with variable gauge (S-122), in 2024 (other 15 trains).


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## kbbcn

Gusiluz said:


> but the tender was awarded to Talgo and its model AVRIL (S-106) with 521 seats in 201,9 meters and a single level, thanks to its wide box and its seats 2 + 2 in Preferente and 2 + 3 in Tourist.
> Will be in service by 2020 (15 trains).


hno: I am still hoping something goes wrong, and they decide in the end not to use those AVRIL trains. It will be the end of comfortable long distance train travel in Spain.

Oh well, good for the airlines and for the car manufacturers I guess...


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## Reivajar

kbbcn said:


> hno: I am still hoping something goes wrong, and they decide in the end not to use those AVRIL trains. It will be the end of comfortable long distance train travel in Spain.
> 
> Oh well, good for the airlines and for the car manufacturers I guess...


Price factor and time factor will be more important for sure. Comfort is important, don't take me wrong, but it still uncertain how well the booking process will work in those trains for enabling reservations on the central seats only under high demand conditions. If this model of train is able to reduce ticket cost, it is likely to be a succesful layout.


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## kbbcn

Reivajar said:


> <...> it still uncertain how well the booking process will work in those trains for enabling reservations on the central seats only under high demand conditions.


Let's assume for a moment that it works, will they also keep a seat free in first class on one side? The single seats in first class are an important selling point. I often decide not to pay extra in first class if there are no more single seats available.


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## Reivajar

kbbcn said:


> Let's assume for a moment that it works, will they also keep a seat free in first class on one side? The single seats in first class are an important selling point. I often decide not to pay extra in first class if there are no more single seats available.


Personally, I don't know if I prefer to be seated in an aisle seat or if I prefer to have an empty seat next to me. I've enjoyed both situations for different reasons. At the end of the day, Renfe, and any other company will try to maximize the revenues. It means if this layout offers the flexibility to a railway operator to offer low-cost tickets in high-density trains, and at the same, it allows to sell the empty seats as a premium feature for first class depending on the circumstances or needs, it seems to be pretty close to a win-win situation from the operational perspective. Actually, from a marketing point of view, the extra space provided by an empty seat in my case would be better than an isolated aisle seat for allowing me to be working on my laptop at the same time that having papers and documents.

I completely understand the point of losing the individual seats and the awkwardness of being in the middle seat like in low-cost planes. However, at the same time, I think that the empty seat can offer some advantages for some premium users while providing a greater flexibility for the operator. There are trade-offs, for sure, and I agree with you, but not all of the outcomes of that new layout are negative from the experience point of view.


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## Sunfuns

Which standard gauge services will use which Antequera station? A bit weird that there are two in a small town.


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## arctic_carlos

Sunfuns said:


> Which standard gauge services will use which Antequera station? A bit weird that there are two in a small town.


Probably Madrid - Granada, Seville - Granada and Málaga - Granada will use the new station (Antequera Ciudad), while Madrid - Málaga and Seville - Málaga will continue using the existing station (Antequera-Sta. Ana).

Technically speaking Madrid - Granada and Seville - Granada could use both stations, but it makes more sense just to stop in the new one, which is more centrally located.

It's not that weird to have two stations there if you look at how this junction is designed, where lines in 5 different directions converge.


----------



## tfkdougal

So what is the current time estimation for Barcelona Valencia, end of 2019?

And the fastest speed will be 2hr 20?

Thanks guys


----------



## JumpUp

Hey 

What new High-Speed-Rail (or upgraded Rail) has opened in 2017 in Spain?
Will there be any opening of new railway in 2018?

Thanks!


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## Gusiluz

^^ Neither in 2017 nor in 2016. For 2018 they announce:

-Valencia-Castellón: no date, it will surely be in one or two months. In tests since 03/20/2017. Will win half an hour from Madrid (from 2 h 52 m to 2 h 25 m average speed: 191 km/h), the same time as now from Valencia. It is only to put mixed gauge in one of the tracks so that trains of fixed standard gauge can circulate.

-Antequera-Granada: "end of works" in November 2017 and, according to the minister, in service in March 2018. Madrid-Granada from 4 h 25 m to 2 h 58 m (190 km/h average speed). I can not believe that time.

-LAV Madrid-Barcelona (near Camp de Tarragona) / Vilaseca-Vandellós: "end of works" in December 2017 and, according to the minister, in service in May 2018. Barcelona-Valencia: from 3 h 12 m to 2 h 40 m (137 km/h).

-Knot of Monforte del Cid-Murcia: end of works in the first quarter of 2018. According to the minister in May 2018 will enter into service. Madrid-Murcia: from 4 h 9 m to 2 h 25 m (218 km/h).

-Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco: in service in 2018. Pass trains through Madrid: announced a profit of 30 m.

-Knot of Venta de Baños (Palencia)-Burgos: end of the works in 2018. Madrid-Burgos: from 2 h 18 m to 1 h 35 m (192 km/h).

-Zamora-Pedralba: end of the works in 2018. Madrid-Coruña: from 5 h 33 m to 5 h (126 km/h).


These two last ones will not be able to enter service in 2018 although the minister says it.


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## Sunfuns

Gusiluz said:


> -Antequera-Granada: "end of works" in November 2017 and, according to the minister, in service in March 2018. Madrid-Granada from 4 h 25 m to 2 h 58 m (190 km/h average speed). I can not believe that time.


You can't believe the travel time or the start of service in March?

Also how about improvements in travel time for Sevilla-Granada and Malaga-Granada?


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## Gusiluz

^^ March 2018? No. The rest of the ads either.
Valencia-Castellón is my own prognosis. 

Seville-Granada from 3:10 to 2:09 (161 kmh)
Málaga-Granada from 2:10 (with transhipment) to 1:0? (16? kmh)


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## Bitxofo

^^And Barcelona to Granada in 5 hours?
:?


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## alserrod

Five hours only?

Less time than to Seville?


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## arctic_carlos

Bitxofo said:


> ^^And Barcelona to Granada in 5 hours?
> :?


That's not possible. Currently, Barcelona to Antequera Sta. Ana already takes 5h 27m.

Barcelona to Granada should therefore take more than 6 hours, unless they decide to run non-stop services (which is highly unlikely).


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## Gusiluz

Bitxofo said:


> ^^And Barcelona to Granada in 5 hours?
> :?


The minister announced *5 hours less than the Tren Hotel*, that is: 6 hours 20 minutes.


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## arctic_carlos

*Bilbao Abando* station will be completely rebuilt and put underground for the arrival of HSR in 2023 (that's when the Basque Y is supposed to be completed). The station will have 2 underground levels:

On level -1 there will be 5 Iberian gauge and 3 narrow gauge tracks for commuter rail services. That should be ready between 2024 and 2027.

On level -2 there will be 8 standard gauge tracks for high speed rail (both regional and long-distance services). That should be ready by 2023.

Here you can see how it will look like (cross-posting from the Basque sub-forum):



igaribi said:


> Sí, estas son las infografías, veremos como queda al final el proyecto
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> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=144250308&postcount=7063


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## keber

That will be really expensive. What is the expected price?


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## alserrod

Do not know, but if allow to built skyscrapers atop, maybe incomings are enough to build it.

It is quite used in Spain that wat


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## Vaud

^^ isn't that how Barcelona Sagrera HSR station was meant to be financed? the works have been abandoned for many years now because the revenues from the real estate sales couldn't cover the construction costs. Is there any update on its progress?


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## Bitxofo

Vaud said:


> ^^ isn't that how Barcelona Sagrera HSR station was meant to be financed? the works have been abandoned for many years now because the revenues from the real estate sales couldn't cover the construction costs. Is there any update on its progress?


^^True!

All stopped by the crisis.
:sleepy:
Sagrera station had to be ready in 2012, but works are very slow now, maybe for 2025...
:runaway:


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## Gusiluz

^^ Archaeological remains were found and there were many problems with a water collector, apart from judicial problems.

Surely someone can explain it better than me.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Works on that new water collector were started last June. Once they're done with it they will be able to resume the construction of the actual station.

https://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOMBPre...ras-del-/417a540d-8a54-4d15-9488-40636275375b


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## Stuu

How many AVE trains per hour/day will Bilbao get once the lines are finished? 8 platforms seems quite a lot...


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Probably there will be more Avant trains (regional high speed services) than proper AVE trains. 

For the first time Bilbao will have a good railway connection with Vitoria and San Sebastián, so it’s quite likely that there will be hourly services between the 3 Basque cities during most parts of the day.

Regarding long-distance high speed services, we can expect AVE trains to Madrid, TGV trains to Bordeaux or even Paris, and AVE or Alvia to Barcelona (depending on the completion of the HSL Zaragoza - Pamplona / Logroño - Vitoria). The station should be prepared as well for a future HSL Bilbao - Santander, let’s not forget it.


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## Richard Sultanov

*Quite interesting and helpful, thanks*

Very helpful. Thank you!

RICHARD SULTANOV
РИЧАРД СУЛТАНОВ



_RvR_ said:


> link


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## Richard Sultanov

*Spain rail adventure By RICHARD SULTANOV / РИЧАРД СУЛТАНОВ*

In 2013 I visited Spain on a 2 week business trip working at AECOM in the rail infrastructure business line. I have to say that for Spain HSR is a lot more than just rapid and comfortable transportation, it is a big industry and driver for the country's development. When Spain was joining the EU, they received grants to develop its rail infrastructure. This certainly helped with fueling economic growth (construction, etc.) and tourism. But what Spain also managed to accomplish was to build its own industry in its field- train manufacturers, system manufacturers, design and planning firms and the list goes on. Amazing competencies and skills. Unfortunately the rail disasters in Spain in recent years have somewhat tarnished the image, especially in terms of safety, but the hope is that there will be good recovery.


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## Richard Sultanov

*RENFE sercice is so good*

I have to say that while travelling in Spain, I was pleasantly surprised by how efficient RENFE's service is. Even during the disaster in 2013, I was in Zaragoza, and we were rerouted without a problem. No big lines or issues. Very pleasant!


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## Gusiluz

*Madrid HSR links*

In the coming months (if opens with ERTMS, as it seems that this will be, there will be to wait until the year 2019) was launched the HSR section from Madrid Chamartín to Torrejón de Velasco. The output from Chamartín there is a tunnel for double track (6.710 km) and there are other tunnel for one track (0.924 km) under Atocha, then start a surface stretch of double track (28 km) to Torrejón de Velasco where links with Andalusian HSR (Seville, Málaga ...). While the link outside between Andalusian HSR and Mediterranean HSR (Valencia, Alicante ...).

Trains between the North and South will no longer change gauge twice (in Chamartín and Atocha) but can not stop in Atocha because the tunnel in one track happens below the station no chance to stop. Will win half an hour.

In another phase is expected to make a link between this stretch and Barcelona HSR and a station underground Atocha, with 4 tracks. In order to make the excavation, first it is necessary remove Atocha tracks 12 to 15 make the new station and reassemble tracks 12 to 14 since the 15 disappear. For this it is necessary first to expand Chamartín station, you will change to the standard gauge tracks 14 and 15 to be built new tracks 22 to 25.


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## kokomo

Gusiluz, any news about the opening of the high speed tunnel from Atocha to Chamartin?


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## Gusiluz

^^ It is almost finished, except for some electrification in Chamartín, the tunnel even receives power, but it is still necessary to deliver the documentation to the Security Agency, and to do many kilometers to validate the ERTMS. With ASFA they could open later this year, if they want.


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## Gusiluz

*Upcoming launches*

The Ministry of Development is promising to put into service this year several infrastructures, although it is necessary to clarify that many of them (besides Pajares) were already promised for 2015... the same year 2015!!! The minister has indicated that the lines will enter into service with ERTMS, for this it is necessary to carry out many kilometers of tests, which lengthens the finalization in approximately one year or more. 
Standard gauge in blue, iberian gauge in red and mixed gauge in green. Before each scheme I put the last ministerial promises.

-Antequera-Granada: in service in March 2018



The works are finished and tests are being carried out. This month the second laboratory train will arrive (Séneca A330) and the substitute buses (the railway line has been cut for three years) are hired until, at least, October. The new station of Antequera will not be ready until the second semester of 2019 (at least). The gauge changer will not be in this phase.
I think it could open at the end of the year with ASFA (200 km/h).
Séneca A330 (Wikipedia):









-Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco: end of works in the first quarter of 2018.

Works almost completed, waiting to start the testing phase.
I think it could open at the end of the year with ASFA (200 km/h).

-Palencia / Venta de Baños-Burgos: end of the works in the summer of 2018.

After some problems in a viaduct and for consolidation of the platform, the works will not be completed until the end of the year (hopefully).

-Vandellós Bypass: in service in May 2018

They tell me that the latest works are scheduled for December.
When it is finished, the Euromed services (S-130) Barcelona-Valencia / Alicante will circulate through the HSR to Camp de Tarragona to change gauge when entering the new bypass, the rest of trains (including Talgo services) will circulate through the conventional line to Tarragona city and will enter in the by-pass by Vila-seca, and the current conventional line along the coast will be cut off and will be without continuity to the south, it is still not clear from where, but almost all the mayors want to remove the train line from their cities (!!!). The works for the adaptation to mixed gauge from Castellbisbal (Barcelona) to Vila-seca (for freight trains), promised for 2020, have just begun.

-Monforte del Cid-Murcia: end of the works in the summer of 2018 and tests since August.

In June work will start on the El Reguerón tracks, stretches of mixed gauge and electrification are still missing.

-Zamora-Pedralba: in tests at the end of 2018.

The works continue. I do not think they are finalized this year.


Other works that do not even say they will be finished this year, although they did promise it for 2015:

-Valencia-Xátiva-Nudo de La Encina: end of works in the third quarter of 2019.


-Plasencia-Badajoz: end of the works in the summer of 2019, in service with Iberian gauge at the beginning of 2020 and electrification by the end of 2020.


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## JumpUp

Hey,

Thank you very much for your information on Spanish infrastructure.
Where are those graphic arts of the Railway network from?

Do you have something like this for ALL the Spanish High-Speed-network?

Thanks!


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## alserrod

Hi,

they are HIS source (for those graphics and charts).
In a lot of Spanish threads he posts about them with data collection. Therefore I reckon you can ask for something and you will have posted another graph...


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## Gusiluz

^^ "Graphic Arts" What a great sense of humor :lol:

My sources are Adif internal documents, although sometimes I have to rely on amateur photographs or google earth images. Adif's plans change too often and often the schemes of others are wrong; An example.

I have been making schemes for the new HSR for about 5 years, so if you are interested in any special ...

Here goes the last one, Chamartín and the connection with the T4 of the Barajas-Adolfo Suarez airport:

In green, the mixed gauge section already in service, has switchable catenary between 3 and 25 kV, currently operates only at 3 kV.

And an update with the distances of each branch of the links around Madrid:


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## Suburbanist

Why didn't they plan high-speed stations at major Spanish airports, especially Bajaras? The ill-fated Ciudad Real airport could well be served by a direct HSR-link, its fate might had been different.


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## alserrod

Even they could make a link to Zaragoza airport with a pedestrian corridor

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6543425,-1.0358083,4556m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## clickgr

Suburbanist said:


> Why didn't they plan high-speed stations at major Spanish airports, especially Bajaras? The ill-fated Ciudad Real airport could well be served by a direct HSR-link, its fate might had been different.


That was always my question. AVE stations inside at least the Spain's 2 biggest and busiest airports, Barajas and El Prat, would offer so many more possibilities for the travellers and so much more convenience. In Barcelona they are now trying to do something with the new EVA service but still, the AVE station is not located right in the airport but at near by El Prat de Llobregat station and the new services do not make much sense. They should have planned it differently from the beginning.


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## Gusiluz

Suburbanist said:


> Why didn't they plan high-speed stations at major Spanish airports, especially Bajaras? The ill-fated Ciudad Real airport could well be served by a direct HSR-link, its fate might had been different.


In the Ciudad Real aiport a walkway was connected to the AVE station.








Source









After that it seems that the other airports have not wanted to do the same :troll:


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## kokomo

Gusiluz, it has always intrigued me why AVE has not reached Barajas airport, being so so close to Chamartín. Why is it that Spain being such an innovative and rail lover has not made such a connection?

I remember, for example, taking off at Schipol, climbing up the escalator and arriving at the check in counter! Amazing


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## Gusiluz

^^ It is complicated to explain, and more for me in English.

A plane leaves 300/500 passengers, many of them will only go to the same city, so a commuter train or Metro seems the best option. Of the rest, everyone who follows the train will have a different destination, to be a great improvement there would have to be a train waiting for each destination, and that means many tracks. The station of the terminal T4 of the Barajas-Adolfo Suárez airport has only two tracks, so although the minister says he wants HST to reach 230 km/h, with what destination? One every hour to Seville and another to Málaga? And it would be very problematic for the switchable catenary.
Surely they would only take the passengers to Chamartín, and that is best done by the commuter trains.


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## kokomo

Seems like a complicated explanation, considering so many other airports have high speed services such as Schipol, CDG, Frankfurt or Fiumicino (to name but a few)
Gracias!


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## alserrod

kokomo said:


> Seems like a complicated explanation, considering so many other airports have high speed services such as Schipol, CDG, Frankfurt or Fiumicino (to name but a few)
> Gracias!


In addition to Gusiluz explanations... 

AFAIK, HSL to airport has non-sense. It could be possible but will not save time, just only avoid to shuttle to a commuter.

TODAY, a voltage variable HSL could reach Barajas.... from Zamora or Leon, going to Madrid-Chamartin, and going back (and setting tracks even standard and remaining Iberian ones). Nowadays they have only Iberian but standard is ready to be set.

But that means only a HS train reaching airport, that's all... well, in addition, any Alvia arriving Atocha from South (or north east) could change and continue to Barajas (these wouldn't need new tracks but variable tension, not available nowadays).
Last but not least, any diesel train that could drive at least up to 200 could reach there.

What's the problem?. Between Chamartin and airport, speed will be the same even for a commuter or a high speed train. Only calls in two stations would be saved.

Two tracks at Airport. That means reaching, leaving people there and going back to Chamartin empty to be cleaned and filled in restaurant and bar because impossible to wait in Airport. Later, for departures from Airport, back empty again.

Too many empty trips, price would be same for city centre or airport and more expensive for trains... and leaving in city centre and taking a commuter is for free (and barely same time).

It will be possible, but maybe you have one train to each destination every two or three hours. Should I reach airport and see that I have to wait three hours or taking a free commuter to city centre and one train within 45 minute, be sure what would I do...


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## clickgr

I think the question here is not why there is no HSR connection between Barajas and Chamartin. The question is why the HSR line from Chamartin towards the north corridors do not pass through Barajas airport having it as an intermediate stop. It this case flight travelers would have many options for destinations at any point of the HSR network either to the north, the south or to the east corridors. Of course if the final destination is Madrid there is no need for HS service.


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## alserrod

I asked it in specific threads. This is, shifting north east corridor, motorway (north of A-2) and HSL (south of A-2) shifted and a by pass to go from north to south. That line will have Airport as an intermediate call.

More expensive in tunnels and bridges over rivers but avoiding tunnel through Madrid.

Forumers said me it was considered and not passed environmental issues. I will believe it but I reckon more options weren't considered and think that would have been best solution


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## Gusiluz

JB Colbert said:


> Asfa analog is shutdown June on.
> As far as I know, HSP250 has to stop to switch over ETCS and ASFA in stand still, 50% commercial services is affected.
> How they are managing the situation?


The analog ASFA has been extended until January. 
The change from ETCS 0 + ASFA to ETCS 1 (or 2 and vice versa) is done with the train stopped at 130 and 730 but the CAF trains change in motion.
For this a technical stop is scheduled if there is no commercial stop.


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## voidrender

I don't follow high-speed rail development closely, so I was surprised to see that Spain has the 2nd most high-speed rail built in the world. Keep it up!


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## Patryk

Spain's high speed trains are impressed. My favourites.


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## Gusiluz

^^ I'm glad. 
You may find this PDF of 84 pages in English interesting about the 25th anniversary of the AVE.


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## Sunfuns

Interesting how reducing travel time Madrid-Barcelona from 6 1/2 h to 4 1/2 only had a marginal effect on passenger numbers there as reducing it further to 2 1/2 h doubled the numbers nearly overnight.


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## Stuu

Can anyone explain the construction going on between Xativa and La Gloria please? it appears that a new standard gauge AVE line has been built, but has Iberian gauge tracks in place - is that correct? And that the old formation has been improved but is not yet finished? What does seem strange is why not just build a new 4-track formation with 2 tracks in each gauge, rather than spending lots of money on the old winding Iberian gauge route. Thanks in advance


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## Gusiluz

^^ I do not understand the question well, La Gloria? I do not know what that is.

In the Xátiva area a new HSR is being built from Valencia, and the line between Xátiva and La Encina (La Gloria?) is being rehabilitated. 
It is complex. 
There was an old line (Xátiva-L´Alcúdia-Moixent-La Encina), in 2004 a new Iberian gauge line was inaugurated for 220 km/h (in blue, although it still has Iberian gauge), now it is going to change gauge to continue the HSR (first the left track, in broken line), but first it is necessary to re-install the track and electrify the old line so that traffic flows in Iberian gauge, last month the works finished until Moixent. It is expected to be finished by 2020. So it will finally be:


If you do not understand (I would not be surprised) ask again.


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## Stuu

^^

Thanks for the explanation. It does look from the aerial view and from streetview that the old line has been rebuilt for two tracks though, and that's the thing that I find strange, as it has kept it's old winding formation when a new route has been built. 

La Gloria is what shows up on Google Maps for some reason, and La Encina only when zoomed in further.


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## Gusiluz

Extensive article very complimentary with the Spanish HSR.

Behind the scenes: Spain’s high-speed railway
By Joe Baker Railway Technology 7 August 2018


> Currently the longest high-speed rail network in Europe, the 3,240km Alta Velocidad Española (AVE) rail network is setting an example for other countries to follow. This article takes a closer look at one section of the AVE line to find out how this prestigious railway is run and maintained, and how the expertise gained has helped inform other high-speed rail projects.
> ...


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## arctic_carlos

The project of HSL Castejón de Ebro - Pamplona is progressing with the start of construction in two sections (Villafranca - Peralta and Peralta - Olite, 15 km in total), and the tendering of 2 other sections (Olite - Tafalla south and Tafalla south - Tafalla, 14 km in total). 

Together with the already completed section Castejón - Villafranca (15 km), at the end of 2018 there will be already 45 km completed or under construction.

Official press releases:

http://prensa.adifaltavelocidad.es/...ACBA764919982BBDC12582F20044E9ED?Opendocument

http://prensa.adifaltavelocidad.es/...61CE0E4A90928B0FC12582C50026D901?Opendocument

http://prensa.adifaltavelocidad.es/...B6D8F07E6F8B51B8C12582DE003ED2B1?Opendocument


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## arctic_carlos

^^ The new HSL will only be connected to the classic network at both ends (Pamplona and Castejón), so until works are completed in its total length, no trains will use it. 2022 being very optimistic.

The new line is being built for double track in standard gauge, but in a first phase only a single track in standard gauge will be installed. By then there should be already mixed gauge between Zaragoza and Castejón and between Pamplona and Vitoria, so there would be a standard gauge continuity for all the Barcelona - Bilbao corridor via Zaragoza, Pamplona and Vitoria.

However, before the change of government last June, the HSLs Pamplona - Vitoria and Zaragoza - Castejón were again taken into consideration, so maybe they'll wait to install standard gauge between Castejón and Pamplona until these lines are ready instead.


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## 1772

Are there any plans to extend the high speed railway beyond spain along the mediterranian coast? 
Going with HST from Madrid/Barcelona to Genua/Milan via Marsielle & Nice/Monaco would be pretty cool.


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## 437.001

1772 said:


> Are there any plans to extend the high speed railway beyond spain along the mediterranian coast?


No. And anyway, that's not Spain's business, but France and/or Italy's.



1772 said:


> Going with HST from Madrid/Barcelona to Genua/Milan via Marsielle & Nice/Monaco would be pretty cool.


Only that building such a line would be horribly expensive, with endless tunnels.
If Italy and France haven't built it yet it is mainly because of the cost.
And also because Italy and France are... let's say not very interested in each other, lately.


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## medi84

RENFE EVA service has been announced for 2019.
Does anyone know at which quarter of 2019 service is planned to start?


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## Gusiluz

^^ The previous minister announced it to start in February 2019


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## Gusiluz

^^ ^^ This year we only started the service with Ave S-100R trains extended from Madrid-Valencia to Castellón thanks to the mixed gauge installation.

We believe that the next launches will be Vandellós bypass and the tunnel under Madrid.

In the first section, ended ERTMS testing but lack end part of the superstructure near the HSR and the gaugechangers. In the best hope in December link in Vandellós and start by Vilaseca up Vandellós. Circulation from Campo of Tarragona to gaugechangers will be in 2019.


In the tunnel under Madrid and the first section of the HSR Chamartín-Valencia ti Torrejón of Velasco (under Atocha, but without the possibility of stopping) is all over for months, and circulating trains without passengers for transfers between workshops, but have not yet begun tests. If opens with ERTMS as we expect, nor is this year.


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## alserrod

JumpUp said:


> Hey
> 
> I like to keep up with Spanish High-Speed-Rail. I go to Spain in winter and will travel a lot with trains! Could you please help me with that information:
> 
> - What new routes of High-Speed Rail in Spain have opened this year? Are there any "soon-to-be-open" lines in Spain for 2018-2019?
> 
> - What about the new Tunnel under Madrid, any opening date yet?
> 
> Thanks!



Which tracks have you traveled on?. Are they any special route you wanna do?. We can recommend you scenic journeys


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## JumpUp

Thank-you for your answers. I travelled on many Spanish Railways, all of them are very scenic - love the view so much, very worth it!

The upcoming travel will be (more or less) two weeks on all railways in Andalusia. I have travelled to Seville and Malaga before, but that's it.

So I have many questions on the current status of railway infrastructure in Andalusia and hope you can help me. 

How much of this Andalusia High-Speed Rail map is still up-to-date and what's the current status of building those railways?










*Sevilla - Cadiz: *
According to google maps it's a two track-electrified railway, but is it normal or wide gauge from Sevilla to Cadiz (or 3rd rail?)

*Sevilla - Huelva:* According to google maps it's today a single track-electrified railway in Iberian gauge - what are the plans for upgrading it or changing it to 1435 mm gauge?

*Huelva - Faro (Portugal):* That railway does not 
exist today - will there ever be a rail connection to the border town Ayamonte again Or is that very unlikely? (it would need a long bridge on to Portugal)? 

*Algeciras*
Today: Algeciras is served with a non-electrified Iberian-gauge-railway from Bobadilla / Antequera. What is the future for trail traffic to Algeciras?
1) New Railway Huelva - Algeciras: Is that in construction? Can't find anything on google maps
2) New Railway Malaga - Marbella - Algeciras: Any information on that project? Will it ever happen (in what guage?) Is it under construction?
3) Upgrading (rebuilt) the classic Bobadilla - Algeciras Railway: Any information concerning that?

*Marbella*
Will that town (100.000 inhabitants) ever be connected to a decent railway service?

*Sevilla - Antequera (-Malaga)*
What about this new High-Speed-Rail? It's being built right now (at least there are photos on google maps). Any idea when it will open or are there already parts that have been opened and are in use between Seville and Antequera (Marchena - Antequeara looks on google maps very far advanced)

*Antequera - Granada*

Are the nowadays any trains on that route? Renfe sells tickets for next week but this week all trains are blocked. What about the High-Speed-Rail to Granada - when will it open and what will happen to the classic (old) railway next to it? Closed?

*East of Granada*
The photo shows a "projected" new / upgraded railway Granada - Jaen and Granada - Almeria. Any more information on that projects?

*Madrid - Jaén*
There are direct trains on that route "Cercanías" via the classic line. Will there be any normal-gauge to Jaén (via Cordoba or via the direct way to Madrid?)

*Sevilla - Mérida*
Any information about upgrading that line to normal gauge?

Any other infrastructure project in Andalusia that I forgot?

THANK YOU SO MUCH WITH YOUR HELP.
This information is very hard to find online, so it's very nice if you could help me what's going on in Andalusia


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## alserrod

There's a new station north from Cordoba with three daily calls in each direction (two Madrid-Seville and one Madrid-Algeciras)


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## arctic_carlos

JumpUp said:


> Thank-you for your answers. I travelled on many Spanish Railways, all of them are very scenic - love the view so much, very worth it!
> 
> The upcoming travel will be (more or less) two weeks on all railways in Andalusia. I have travelled to Seville and Malaga before, but that's it.
> 
> So I have many questions on the current status of railway infrastructure in Andalusia and hope you can help me.
> 
> How much of this Andalusia High-Speed Rail map is still up-to-date and what's the current status of building those railways?


I'll try to answer. 



> *Sevilla - Cadiz: *
> According to google maps it's a two track-electrified railway, but is it normal or wide gauge from Sevilla to Cadiz (or 3rd rail?)


Iberian (wide) gauge. Madrid - Cádiz Alvia services change gauge in Sevilla.



> *Sevilla - Huelva:* According to google maps it's today a single track-electrified railway in Iberian gauge - what are the plans for upgrading it or changing it to 1435 mm gauge?


There were plans to build a new HSL, then they were dropped and an upgrade of the current line was planned, but now it seems they've returned to the old project of building a new HSL:



> *Huelva - Faro (Portugal):* That railway does not
> exist today - will there ever be a rail connection to the border town Ayamonte again Or is that very unlikely? (it would need a long bridge on to Portugal)?


It's very unlikely, although it has never been officially ruled out.



> *Algeciras*
> Today: Algeciras is served with a non-electrified Iberian-gauge-railway from Bobadilla / Antequera. What is the future for trail traffic to Algeciras?
> 1) New Railway Huelva - Algeciras: Is that in construction? Can't find anything on google maps
> 2) New Railway Malaga - Marbella - Algeciras: Any information on that project? Will it ever happen (in what guage?) Is it under construction?
> 3) Upgrading (rebuilt) the classic Bobadilla - Algeciras Railway: Any information concerning that?


1) I guess you mean Cádiz - Algeciras. Well, it's just a line somebody drew on that map; it's not even planned nowadays.

2) That's a neverending story. Currently there's an Iberian gauge "Cercanías" line between Málaga and Fuengirola, partially double-tracked. It's heavily used, especially in summer, and it's supposed to be extended to Marbella (which will add more crowding). However no construction has started. It will probably be almost 100% underground, which explains the delays (no funding is available for such a huge project). And well, someday it should be extended from Marbella to Estepona and then to Algeciras. But that's just wishful thinking.

3) Yes, that line is being slowly rebuilt. When the works are completed, it will be electrified and it will have third rail. There were plans to build a new HSL between Antequera and Ronda, but they were ruled out. 



> *Marbella*
> Will that town (100.000 inhabitants) ever be connected to a decent railway service?


Read the previous paragraph.



> *Sevilla - Antequera (-Malaga)*
> What about this new High-Speed-Rail? It's being built right now (at least there are photos on google maps). Any idea when it will open or are there already parts that have been opened and are in use between Seville and Antequera (Marchena - Antequeara looks on google maps very far advanced)


The easiest part, Marchena - Antequera, was built 10 years ago by the regional Andalusian government. However, the most difficult part, Sevilla - Marchena, was cancelled just before construction was supposed to start due to the economic crisis.

That means that the built section between Marchena and Antequera has been abandoned for over a decade now. It would be relatively easy to install Iberian gauge tracks on that section and connect it to the classic line at both ends, which would be very useful to reduce travel times between Sevilla and Málaga.

By the way, due to heavy rains last weekeend, a bridge collapsed next to the town of Aguadulce and there're currently no trains between Osuna and Bobadilla. It will take at least 3 months to rebuild it.



> *Antequera - Granada*
> 
> Are the nowadays any trains on that route? Renfe sells tickets for next week but this week all trains are blocked. What about the High-Speed-Rail to Granada - when will it open and what will happen to the classic (old) railway next to it? Closed?


There are no trains between Antequera and Granada since April 2015 due to the construction works of the new HSL. All passengers must take buses between both stations. The new HSL will probably open in June 2019.

Nobody really knows what will happen to the classic line, because every few months there's contradictory information in the press.



> *East of Granada*
> The photo shows a "projected" new / upgraded railway Granada - Jaen and Granada - Almeria. Any more information on that projects?


Granada - Jaén is again just a line somebody drew on that map. 

Granada - Almería will probably be upgraded (mixed gauge and electrification) in the next decade.



> *Madrid - Jaén*
> There are direct trains on that route "Cercanías" via the classic line. Will there be any normal-gauge to Jaén (via Cordoba or via the direct way to Madrid?)


These are Regional trains; "Cercanías" are suburban trains which usually don't reach more than 60 km out of the big cities.

Currently the line between Jaén and Linares-Baeza station is being upgraded (new alignment, prepared for double track in the future), and there were plans to build a new HSL between Mora (on the HSL Madrid - Sevilla near Toledo) and Alcázar de San Juan, as well as to upgrade the classic line between Alcázar de San Juan and Linares-Baeza, but there are no ongoing works there.



> *Sevilla - Mérida*
> Any information about upgrading that line to normal gauge?


Not that I'm aware of.



> Any other infrastructure project in Andalusia that I forgot?


Construction should start next year on the missing link between Almería and Murcia.



> THANK YOU SO MUCH WITH YOUR HELP.
> This information is very hard to find online, so it's very nice if you could help me what's going on in Andalusia


You're welcome.


----------



## racso380

AVE Madrid-Castellón at Almenara station

https://youtu.be/YpYejcLGtI4


----------



## intersezioni

Not only France in the future of the ETR 400 - Frecciarossa 1000, but also Spain.
The rumor is relaunched today by the digital newspaper El Espanol, according to which Trenitalia, likewise to SNCF, would like to enter into competition with RENFE on the Iberian high-speed lines becoming partner of Ilsa, a consortium currently formed by Acciona and some shareholders of Air Nostrum.
To convince the members of Ilsa, Trenitalia would have offered to bring along the latest generation trains, ie the ETR 400 - Frecciarossa 1000, to the consortium.
This option would allow the new operator to start providing AV services in Spain with a train capable of offering the same standards as the most advanced RENFE trainsets. Conversely, in the offer sent by SNCF to Acciona and to the shareholders of Air Nostrum, the French operator proposed to adapt the high-speed trains currently in service in France, but these would be older models.
The French operator is currently carrying out an important renewal of its fleet in which, in addition to the purchase of new trains, it is updating and modernizing old models to allow them maximum performance.
The coming weeks will be important to fully understand how the Spanish railway liberalization will take place. Ilsa, Acciona and Air Nostrum shareholders must choose a partner between SNCF and Trenitalia. In addition to this consortium, the rest of the interested parties have until July 31 to present their plans for the next 10 years to Adif, the manager of the Iberian network.
The infrastructure manager should analyze the requests of each of the operators concerned by 31 October 2019 to ensure that by December 2020 the liberalization of the railway in Spain becomes a reality.

source: ferrovie.info


----------



## 437.001

*Antequera-Santa Ana to Granada high speed line*

Looks like on June 3 2019, Renfe might start selling tickets for the new high-speed services to Granada.
So the new high speed line between Antequera-Santa Ana and Granada will be opening very soon (some say June 24, but that's not official yet).

For what it seems, the service will be started with AVE Madrid-Granada and AVE Barcelona-Granada.

No idea wether Avant services Granada-Seville will start operating or not yet.

Avant services Granada-Malaga won't start operating yet.

*Intermediate stations*

Antequera station won't be opening yet. Passengers to Antequera will have to use Antequera-Santa Ana station.

As for Loja station, I'm not sure wether trains will call at Loja station, or at Loja-San Francisco station.

The section between Loja and Riofrio will not be high-speed line, as there were geological diffficulties, so the trains on that stretch will use the classic line, which has been electrified and equipped with triple-rail.

Passengers arriving at Granada station will find the new tramway linking it to different parts of the city, among them the bus station, the university, etc. But NOT the old town (although it runs not very far from it).


----------



## alserrod

Nowadays we have

Morning Barcelona-Seville/Malaga
Afternoon Barcelona-Seville/Malaga
and conversely

And on peak dates we have an extra Barcelona-Seville on morning and return on afternoon

It is expected to have

Morning Barcelona-Seville, already available on web
Morning Barcelona-Malaga/Granada, not available yet. They will drive joined till Antequera
Afternoon Barcelona-Malaga/Seville, already available on web

This is, they will use extra schedules for Barcelona-Seville to set a Barcelona-Malaga/Granada

On peake dates they will double first Barcelona-Sevilla, thus same capacity.

Changes will be
- New service Barcelona-Granada
- a small decalage for Barcelona-Malaga and return


----------



## kbbcn

Exactly what Barcelona/Catalunya needs, more high speed connections to Andalucía... hno:


In the meantime it still takes more than 3 hours to do the 350 km to Valencia by train (between the 2nd and 3rd city of the county).


----------



## Suburbanist

kbbcn said:


> Exactly what Barcelona/Catalunya needs, more high speed connections to Andalucía... hno:
> 
> 
> In the meantime it still takes more than 3 hours to do the 350 km to Valencia by train (between the 2nd and 3rd city of the county).


Do they have Alvia services on the Valencia-Barcelona line? What is the fastest connection between both cities and is it non-stop?

Since the line to Granada will open, it makes sense to open new services to/from Barcelona on existing and not-so-busy infrastructure. It saves lots of time compared to a transfer at Madrid P. Atocha.

Will these Catalunya/Andalucia services all call at Zaragoza, Ciudad Real and Cordoba?


----------



## Suburbanist

Speaking of new services, do they have plans for Valencia/Alicante-Sevilla direct services?


----------



## alserrod

To sum up...

- A long time ago Barcelona had a daily train to Seville only (to Cadiz indeed) via Madrid and another one to almost all Andalucia (*1*) and Badajoz via Valencia. Extra night trains ran while night.

- When HSL they started with Cadiz-Barcelona, with HSL Seville-Madrid for 11 years, later Seville-Lerida and finally they shifted to only Seville-Barcelona full HSL. They started with two daily trains Barcelona-Andalucia. At first, different schedules to Malaga and Seville... thus four connections to Cordoba (despite they could be only one hour of difference)
It is a long journey, not to commute or so. Therefore, they do not have enough trains for peak dates and out of season, they can be fifty of ocupation
- Breaking news, I have read somewhere, it seems Barcelona-Granada will not run joined with a Malaga branch but early depart from Barcelona and just afternoon from Granada. One only train for both journeys (Ryanair style)
- It will call (AFAIK) at Camp de Tarragona, Lerida, Zaragoza, Cordoba (no Ciudad Real), Antequera and Granada.

We will have to wait two weeks (or less) for final data


----------



## arctic_carlos

kbbcn said:


> Exactly what Barcelona/Catalunya needs, more high speed connections to Andalucía... hno:


Any problem with it? Do not use that service if you don't need it.

And yes, Barcelona indeed needs AVE services with Granada. Basically half the population of the Granada province migrated to Catalonia in the 60s, so the two areas have huge ties.



kbbcn said:


> In the meantime it still takes more than 3 hours to do the 350 km to Valencia by train (between the 2nd and 3rd city of the county).


In September it will be reduced to 2h 20m.



Suburbanist said:


> Do they have Alvia services on the Valencia-Barcelona line? What is the fastest connection between both cities and is it non-stop?


The current planning is to start these services in September, when the new connection near Tarragona opens. Travel times will be then reduced to 2h 20m (currently the fastest trains take 3 hours between both cities). I don't remember if currently there are non-stop services, there used to be a few a day, but most Euromed services call in Tarragona and Castellón.


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## 437.001

kbbcn said:


> Exactly what Barcelona/Catalunya needs, more high speed connections to Andalucía... hno:


The non-xenophobic part of the Catalans do need these connections.
As for the xenophobic part, they don't use the train anyway, so who cares.



kbbcn said:


> In the meantime it still takes more than 3 hours to do the 350 km to Valencia by train (between the 2nd and 3rd city of the county).


It is coming, in October they say.


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have Alvia services on the Valencia-Barcelona line?


Not exactly.

They have Euromed services.
Some are served by a S-130 train (which in other lines it is sold under the "Alvia" moniker), and some are served by Talgo sets.
They operate two patterns, one Barcelona-Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia, and another Barcelona-Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante.
A few of these trains also call at L'Aldea, between Tarragona and Castellon.

Some others services are called Talgo (and operated by Talgo sets), and have more intermediate stops, some of them continuing beyond Alicante to Murcia, and then Lorca or Cartagena.
One particular Talgo goes beyond Valencia, then calls at Xativa, then Albacete and on to Seville along the classic line.



Suburbanist said:


> What is the fastest connection between both cities and is it non-stop?


Intermediate stops at Tarragona and Castellon.
It takes 3 hours.

The new link between Vandellos and Camp de Tarragona (and from there on to Barcelona along the Madrid-Barcelona HSL) will cut travel time by 30min, but only Euromed services operated by S-130 trains will be able to run via the HSL.
Talgo services, which call at more stations anyway, will be kept for the time being on the classic line between Barcelona and Vilaseca because otherwise travel times between Tarragona and Valencia and Tarragona and Castellon would become uncompetitive versus driving by car (Camp de Tarragona station is 8 km outside Tarragona centre). 
Besides, this could allow for some if not all of those services to be extended to Figueres-Vilafant, allowing to reduce the AVE Madrid-Figueres Vilafant, since there are so little passengers between beyond Barcelona and Girona and Figueres.



Suburbanist said:


> Since the line to Granada will open, it makes sense to open new services to/from Barcelona on existing and not-so-busy infrastructure. It saves lots of time compared to a transfer at Madrid P. Atocha.


Actually the transfer is at Antequera-Santa Ana (currently to a bus). 
You also can change at Madrid-Atocha, but it won't save you time.
There's also a Talgo Madrid Atocha-Granada on the classic line, but I'm not certain about its timetable.



Suburbanist said:


> Will these Catalonia/Andalusia services all call at Zaragoza, Ciudad Real and Cordoba?


Yes, plus Camp de Tarragona, Lleida, Puente Genil-Herrera, Antequera-Santa Ana (at least, until the new Antequera central station opens), Loja... and... I'm not certain about Puertollano.



Suburbanist said:


> Speaking of new services, do they have plans for Valencia/Alicante-Sevilla direct services?


There already is an AVE Valencia-Seville per day/direction.

On weekends, I think they also run an Alicante-Malaga service (but I think it's not sold as an AVE).


----------



## kbbcn

..


----------



## kbbcn

437.001 said:


> The non-xenophobic part of the Catalans do need these connections.



Wanting a fast connection between the 2nd and the 3rd city in the country before there are high speed lines to rural areas and minor cities all over the country is not xenophobic, it is getting your priorities right.

BTW, how is the construction of that new station in Antequera going? No, not the AVE one, the other new one: Santa Ana. (Oh, wait. That will also be used by AVE trains.)
I am sure that they will first invest money in the new Sagrera station in Barcelona and finish that (after, what, 15 years?), given the sizes of Barcelona compared to Antequera... Getting the priorities right, you know. (Or is this "xenophobic" too?)




437.001 said:


> As for the xenophobic part, they don't use the train anyway, so who cares.


Of course they do, but they only use trains operated by the Generalitat (FGC)... :doh:




437.001 said:


> It is coming, in October they say.


 Just in one post (see below) another extra month was added...


----------



## kbbcn

Suburbanist said:


> What is the fastest connection between both cities and is it non-stop?


Fastest connection on the Euromed is 3h10 I believe...? (I normally only go as far as Castellon.)


arctic_carlos said:


> And yes, Barcelona indeed needs AVE services with Granada. Basically half the population of the Granada province migrated to Catalonia in the 60s, so the two areas have huge ties.


:nuts: Really? Making it easier for people to visit their relatives is back in "their village" is a good argument to explain the need of high speed rail connections?
I agree that if the line is there anyway, better use it as much as possible. But can you really use this to defend that Barcelona "needs" a line to Granada more than that businesses in Valencia and Barcelona need a fast connection between those cities?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ You’re just manipulating facts.

The HSL between Antequera and Granada (infrastructure) will open in few weeks. That’s something we all were expecting, because the line has been under construction for ages. The decision about the services that will use the line depends, of course, on the predicted demand and the availability of trains, drivers, etc. Taking into account these factors, it has been recently announced that, to begin with, there will be 3 daily AVE Madrid - Granada, and one daily AVE Barcelona - Granada.

This has nothing to do with the problems in the Barcelona - Valencia services.


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## alserrod

I reckon it is better not to mix issues

Granada will receive trains from Cordoba via HSL since more than two years with service halted and commuting to buses

There will be 3 daily trains to Madrid, 2 out of them will operate joined to Malaga services
And there will be 1 daily train to Barcelona operating with Malaga one. It will change current schedule and let's hope they let to commute in Cordoba to all directions. Therefore, 3 daily trains Barcelona-Cordoba and let's hope you could continue or commute to Seville and Malaga

We expect to know if any regional train will release Almeria after a HSL arriving Granada.


About Barcelona-Valencia, we could talk about delays, about why never asking about a connection via HSL at first in Barcelona and so on. I hope to read nice news asap, but they are different topics, aren't they?


----------



## 437.001

kbbcn said:


> Wanting a fast connection between the 2nd and the 3rd city in the country before there are high speed lines to rural areas and minor cities all over the country is not xenophobic, it is getting your priorities right.


Ok. Fair enough.

However... _not_ wanting the rest of the country to improve its transport network _because you don't want them to_, is that anywhere near "getting your priorities right"?

Or maybe is that closer to something else? :hmm:



kbbcn said:


> BTW, how is the construction of that new station in Antequera going? No, not the AVE one, the other new one: Santa Ana. (Oh, wait. That will also be used by AVE trains.)
> I am sure that they will first invest money in the new Sagrera station in Barcelona and finish that (after, what, 15 years?), given the sizes of Barcelona compared to Antequera...


Antequera-Santa Ana station has been open for over a decade now.
It is getting closer and closer to returning the full amount of the cost of its construction.

Oh, and they're building a new one in Antequera, yes, much more central. Problem?

But I guess you won't dare compare the cost of a square metre of soil in Antequera to the cost of the very same square metre in Barcelona, will you?

And besides, how relevant will the foreseable Barcelona-Sagrera station be to railway operation?
Let me answer you: *totally redundant*.
How much will Barcelona-Sagrera station increase the number of high-speed passengers? 
Let me answer you: *by an irrelevant number*.
How much money is being spent in a huge waste of space in the quarter of Sagrera, Barcelona?
Let me answer you: *many billions*.

Turns out that Antequera having two high-speed stations makes more sense than Barcelona having two, too?
Well, surprisingly, it may well be the case. 

If may well be so much the case that it's still not entirely clear wether Barcelona-Sagrera station will actually ever open as a station. As of now, they're merely building its structure just because it doesn't do, to have such a humungous gaping hole in the midst of Barcelona, and because the city desperately needs soil to build new, much needed homes. And a new park, of course.

Oh please and don't make me remind you of the utter shambles that was the construction of the section from L'Arboç to Barcelona of the Madrid-Barcelona high-speed line, and how the local and regional governments couldn't get their priorities right.
Because otherwise, I'll merely floor you under the amount of reasons why.



kbbcn said:


> Of course they do, but they only use trains operated by the Generalitat (FGC)... :doh:


No, only a very small minority of people in Barcelona are such ideological idiots as to discriminate one rail company over the other for political reasons.

Most people use this or that company if it is convenient to them, and they don't use it if it isn't.

Besides, many don't have such a choice. Actually the vast majority don't have such a choice.
There is only a quite small amount of destinations to which you can choose one company over the other. Namely L'Hospitalet, Cornellà, Castellbisbal, Martorell, Castellbell i el Vilar, Sant Vicenç de Castellet, Manresa, Sant Cugat del Vallès, Rubí, Cerdanyola del Vallès, Sabadell, and Terrassa. 
Not one more, not one less. That makes _twelve_ towns. 
And of course, you can also travel to Barcelona from these twelve towns.
None of them have a high-speed connection to Barcelona, of course. They don't need one, as that is suburban rail.

I thought in Catalonia there were a little bit more than just twelve towns and Barcelona?

But I digress here, we're supposed to be talking high-speed rail.



kbbcn said:


> Just in one post (see below) another extra month was added...


I "saw _below_", and I saw nothing about any kind of extra month.



kbbcn said:


> Fastest connection on the Euromed is 3h10 I believe...? (I normally only go as far as Castellon.)


Under normal conditions, the travel time Barcelona to Valencia is three hours. 

But currently there are no such normal conditions, right now there are significant upgrade works between Castellon and Valencia, as you'd know if you paid attention instead of senselessly moaning like a three year old child.



kbbcn said:


> :nuts: Really? Making it easier for people to visit their relatives is back in "their village" is a good reason to explain the need of high speed rail connections?


One of them. Is it any less good?



kbbcn said:


> I agree that if the line is there anyway, better use it as much as possible. But can you really use this to defend that Barcelona "needs" a line to Granada more than that businesses in Valencia and Barcelona need a fast connection between those cities?


You're a _special_ kind of forum member, so you need a special kind of answer.

Here it goes.

People sometimes do travel, in case you didn't realise.

For instance, they travel for leisure, like "those who want to see relatives". 
Or those who go on holiday, without having any kind of relatives there.

But you don't only travel for that reason.

You may also _need_ to travel, and not for leisure.
You may _need_ to travel for _business_.

In case you hadn't realised, the Granada urban area alone has a population of about half a million people. If you count the whole province of Granada, then you have a population of nearly one million people.
This means lots of business - education, industry, tourism (which is a business too), trade... and so on.

You see, people in Granada don't wear fig leaves to cover their privates.
Some may actually like to do it, perhaps, who knows, but none that I'm aware of. In fact, I'd find it quite odd if I discovered that any did, in 2019.

This implies that many people do _need_ to travel between Granada and the outer world (the outer world! WOW!  Such a big concept).
And to travel to the outer world, away from Granada, people have a choice of ways of travelling.
One is the car. Convenient at times, but not very fast for long distance.
One is the bus. Can be convenient if there's nothing better and you don't have a car. But it's cheap.
One is the airplane. Convenient for long distance and particularly very long distance.

And lastly, another one is the train.
However, Granada was very badly served by train (I mean, very very badly), and trains to Granada were very slow and it took ages to get there, as the lines leading there are very mountainous and bendy, and frankly, when they were built in the 19th century, the companies which built them did not really care a lot about actual travel times, and they cared much more about saving costs.
And there's no remaining line between Granada and Murcia (but they're building a new line between Almeria and Pulpi, which will make travel by rail between Granada and Murcia possible again in a few years, if all goes well).

So nowadays, Granada is one of the biggest cities of its size in Spain with the worst rail service.
The only other ones that come to mind could be Bilbao, San Sebastian, and Oviedo/Gijon/Aviles. 
Which are all better served by rail than Granada, although certain travel times remain horribly bad, and in each case there's a high-speed line in works, too.

So they decided to build the high-speed line from Antequera to Granada, which will hugely improve travel times from the city to... probably not the whole of the outer world, but at least significant parts of the outer world that is not very far from Granada, which is, generally speaking, called _Spain_. 

And within that thing that generally speaking is called Spain, there is a number of destinations which will take advantage of better travel times by rail to and from Granada.

Some of the main ones are called Madrid, Zaragoza, Seville, Malaga.

As you can see, Barcelona is just an extra.
But it may well pay off, because it is the link between two of the most touristy cities in Spain.
It may also pay off, because in Granada there is one of the main universities of Spain.
And also because the city has a growing industrial and scientific area.

Not the mere destination for _"allegedly civilised urban first-world people who think they go to see their fig-leaf, Neanderthalish relatives"_, then.
Relatives who probably don't want them anyway, if they behave in such manners.

Oh, and incidentally, I _never_ said Barcelona needed a high-speed service to Granada more than it needed a better rail connection to Valencia... :bash:

But since you ask, as for Barcelona to Valencia, yes, it is so very much delayed, but the moaners about it are such a bag of crashing bores that even though I'd be on the losing end, I'd sometimes rather see it never finished... but come to think of it, that would only make matters worse, moaning-wise. 
CAN'T YOU BLOODY WAIT TILL OCTOBER??? IT'S BEEN TWENTY YEARS, SO A FEW EXTRA MONTHS WON'T MATTER THAT MUCH!!!


----------



## Suburbanist

What other services (Avant, Alvia) will run out of Granada? Some direct Granada-Sevilla and Granada-Malaga trains?


----------



## alserrod

It is expected to, but we do not have still further information


----------



## arctic_carlos

Suburbanist said:


> What other services (Avant, Alvia) will run out of Granada? Some direct Granada-Sevilla and Granada-Malaga trains?


Most probably those Avant services (Granada - Málaga and Granada - Córdoba - Sevilla) will be only implemented after this summer.

That's a pity, given that in summer there are many tourists in Málaga who could take advantage of the new trains to visit Granada, and currently there's no train service between both cities.


----------



## Suburbanist

Is the old line to Jaen at risk of being closed?


----------



## alserrod

Madrid-Linares-Jaen?


No. It remains with 3 daily services. But I reckon there will not be any changes in the next years


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> What other services (Avant, Alvia) will run out of Granada? Some direct Granada-Sevilla and Granada-Malaga trains?


Yes.

Although Adif plans to build a gauge changer at Granada (and probably also the electrification of the section Granada-Moreda-Hueneja of the classic line and an upgrade of the electrification between Hueneja and Almeria), so I definitely wouldn't discard Alvia Madrid-Almeria and Intercity Seville-Granada-Almeria and maybe even Malaga-Granada-Almeria (but in this latter case I'm not sure wether it would be competitive versus car/bus in travel time).

In the longer run, and once the Almeria to Pulpi new line opens, expect a flood of new services of all kinds going up the Mediterranean coast.
The only constraint, once that happened, would be the section between Gador and Fiñana, extremely mountainous and bendy, with some of the sharpest gradients in Spain (but absolutely spectacular in its desertic Spaghetti-Western beauty :drool.



arctic_carlos said:


> Most probably those Avant services (Granada - Málaga and Granada - Córdoba - Sevilla) will be only implemented after this summer.
> 
> That's a pity, given that in summer there are many tourists in Málaga who could take advantage of the new trains to visit Granada, and currently there's no train service between both cities.


Anyway, even in winter there are enough Costa del Sol tourists who travel to Granada, so I think that the Malaga to Granada direct rail service will be a bomb from day one, probably carrying even more passengers than the Malaga-Cordoba-Seville Avant services.



Suburbanist said:


> Is the old line to Jaen at risk of being closed?


I don't see why, there is no rail link between Jaen and Granada, there never was any.

If by "Jaen" you mean the line between Linares and Moreda classic line, then you may be right, but... it remains to be seen.
The truth is that the Linares to Moreda classic line runs far away from any town or village, each and every station on it is either closed or used by only very few passengers of Talgo trains to Madrid, as there no longer exist any regional trains... so I wouldn't be surprised if it closed.
It would make a fantastic heritage line though, as it crosses some very beautiful landscapes.

But then again, other lines which would be far more useful and which run through much more populated areas were closed, while this has survived, so go figure...


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## alserrod

Jaen-Granada, I think it will be 35 years or 40 without service. Madrid-Jaen remains with 3 daily trains and enough passengers. It was expected to have trains running on Seville line and a new line to change to Jaen one (thus faster when exit from Madrid)

Before HSL (this is, before 1992), at least one Madrid-Seville train had bus connection (served by Renfe) from Linares.

It doesn't have more services than to Madrid, and cities in the middle. From Linares even you have a train to Barcelona via Valencia, for instance


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ Please, read the previous post. There has never been a Jaén - Granada rail link.


----------



## alserrod

correct, I had a mistake. There is/was a line to Puente Genil, halted since several decades ago. No more railway in the area


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ The Avant to Seville and Malaga are scheduled for the last week of September.

The forecast is 605,000 passengers to Madrid, 128,000 to Barcelona, 550,000 to Malaga, 115,000 to Cordoba and 260,000 to Seville.


----------



## JumpUp

Is there any news about the Madrid Rail tunnel for High-Speed-Rail?
It's getting very quiet.... Construction should be finished by now, isn't it?


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> Is there any news about the Madrid Rail tunnel for High-Speed-Rail?
> It's getting very quiet.... Construction should be finished by now, isn't it?


It _*is*_ finished.

But it is not open. :dunno:

Some say lack of staff and lack of rolling stock.

===================================================================

Going back to the Antequera to Granada high speed line, looks like it will open on June 26 2019.
The Renfe website already announces its first promos, something like Barcelona to Granada for €45 or similar (I just haven't had the time to look at it yet).


----------



## alserrod

Zaragoza-Granada 39,6 with Promo
Zaragoza-Granada 40,0 with "AVE Granada" fare


----------



## davide84

437.001 said:


> Some say lack of staff and lack of rolling stock.


This sound weird, as if it was a project with no benefits for normal operations... normally urban crossing are extremely important and operators can't wait to start using them and save time.

EDIT: a-ha, the tunnel seems to be finished but the project is not:


> (Information valid as of 31 December 2018)
> 
> [...]
> 
> Drilling was completed on 11 February 2011 and the tunnel will improve the operation model of both stations in Madrid, as their configuration will be transformed from that of terminals to that of transit stations.
> 
> Their commissioning will be optimised by the installation of new lines on the Atocha-Torrejón de Velasco section which will be in addition to the two which currently serve the high-speed Madrid-Andalusia and Madrid-Levant corridors.
> 
> Once these important works have been completed and the Puerta de Atocha and Chamartín stations have been restructured, the tunnel will provide the major operators with the opportunity to choose between Chamartín and Atocha as their departure or arrival high-speed station in the capital.
> 
> http://www.adifaltavelocidad.es/en_...atocha_chamartin/tunel_atocha_chamartin.shtml





> SPAIN: Development Minister Íñigo de la Serna has unveiled plans for the second phase of a capacity expansion programme at Madrid Atocha station, designed by architect Rafael Moneo.
> 
> In preparation for the opening of the 1 435 mm gauge tunnel under Madrid to Chamartín, built at a cost of €322m and currently undergoing testing, capacity at Atocha is to be increased to enable the station to handle up to 40 million passengers a year, compared to the 22 million recorded in 2017.
> 
> Work costing a total of €432m at Atocha will include the construction of two 420 m long platforms served by four tracks on the route to Chamartín, located underground on the western side of the station. A new concourse and the remodelling of existing facilities will provide direct access to all 14 terminating tracks as well as the four through lines to Chamartín, while the historic trainshed in front of the modern station at Atocha is to be reconfigured to smooth passenger flow.
> 
> Capacity into Madrid from the south is being increased under the €646∙5m project to widen from two to four tracks the high speed line between Atocha and Torrejón de Velasco, used by services to Valencia, Málaga, Córdoba and Sevilla. With preparations now underway to call tenders for design studies, a new connection that would enable services from the high speed line to Barcelona to continue to Chamartín via Atocha is expected to cost €90m to build.
> 
> At Chamartín, €237∙6m is to be spent on converting two of the 15 1 668 mm gauge tracks to 1 435 mm, and on providing an additional four 1 435 mm gauge tracks for high speed services. The existing concourse will be extended to accommodate the expected increase in high speed passengers.
> 
> https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/high-speed/single-view/view/atocha-phase-2-unveiled.html
> 28 Mar 2018


----------



## 437.001

*AVE Barcelona-Granada*


----------



## 437.001

*Initial Barcelona-Granada and Madrid-Granada AVE services*

Barcelona/Madrid > Granada











Granada > Madrid/Barcelona










Footnotes: 

a) "no para" means "doesn't call", and "no pasa" means "doesn't run".
b) "diario" means "everyday", "L a V" means "Monday to Friday", and "S y D" means "Saturday and Sunday"

Source: *Granada Hoy* (article in Spanish)



^^
They're not very good. Only four trains! 
I hope that as long as they get more rolling stock and staff they will increase the offer...


----------



## JumpUp

Four trains for a new opened High-Speed-Rail ist not much,
compared to Germany where - after opening a new line - usually 2-3 trains per hour use it!

Although you need to see that today and in the last 3-4 years Granada was more or less disconnected from railway, only slow trains to Almeria and since winter 2018 one daily train via the old line (Lineares) to Madrid. So one starts from zero in Granada right now, 4 daily trains isn't that bad, you first need to attract some passengers after all, because today there are no passengers!


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## arctic_carlos

^^ There should be at least an extra Madrid - Granada service in the morning, leaving Madrid around 10:30-11:00 and reaching Granada around 14:00. The 14:35 Madrid - Granada service should leave around 15:30-16:00 to be more attractive, especially on Fridays. On the opposite direction, there should be an additional Granada - Madrid service around 11:00. If those changes were made, there would be a train every 4 hours in both ways, leaving both Madrid and Granada around 7, 11, 15 and 19 hours.

And regarding Barcelona - Granada services, the Barcelona - Granada train leaves Barcelona way too early to be attractive for many potential users. It should leave around 09:00. And on Fridays there could be an additional service in the afternoon, around 15:00, thus attracting potential weekend travelers. It wouldn't be a bad idea to make these additional services call in Madrid, in order to gain more users.


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## alserrod

Well... works started in Antequera. 
Let's remember gauge nightmare in Spain...and up to Puertollano you have one train every 20 minutes or less. They use most if existing lines


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## JumpUp

What will be built in Antequera?
The High-Speed-Station Estación de Antequera-Santa Ana is rather new,
and the old station shouldn't be relevant for Madrid - Granada trains?


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Construction of the HSL station located in the city of Antequera itself has recently been resumed. It makes sense for the future Granada - Málaga / Sevilla HS regional services (Avant), as well as for Granada - Madrid / Barcelona AVE services, which should call there instead of in Antequera-Sta. Ana, which is far from the city. The latter should only be used by Madrid - Málaga / Algeciras AVE or Altaria services.


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## Bitxofo

Loja AVE station is not finished yet?
:?
Why the new AVE is not stopping in Loja AVE?
:?


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## arctic_carlos

Read the table in 437.001’s post 4112. Two daily Madrid - Granada and Granada - Madrid AVE services will stop in Loja.

And there isn’t a new AVE station in Loja, the old one has been simply refurbished.


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> Four trains for a new opened High-Speed-Rail ist not much,
> compared to Germany where - after opening a new line - usually 2-3 trains per hour use it!
> 
> Although you need to see that today and in the last 3-4 years Granada was more or less disconnected from railway, only slow trains to Almeria and since winter 2018 one daily train via the old line (Lineares) to Madrid. So one starts from zero in Granada right now, 4 daily trains isn't that bad, you first need to attract some passengers after all, because today there are no passengers!


In the not too distant future, Granada will generate a lot more passengers than it does now.
It really is horribly served by rail today.

The big change, however, won't come from this high speed line, though, even though from this side the improvement will be very important (ie Granada has never ever had any direct trains to/from Malaga, hard to believe as it may seem!!).
The big change will come with the opening of the new Almeria-Pulpi line and the electrification of the Granada-Moreda-Hueneja section of the classic line, which will allow trains to Murcia, Alicante, Valencia and probably further north. There are no trains between Granada, Murcia and Alicante since 1985, and to Valencia since they cut the night train a few years ago (a Talgo Trenhotel to Barcelona via Linares-Moreda). 



arctic_carlos said:


> There should be at least an extra Madrid - Granada service in the morning, leaving Madrid around 10:30-11:00 and reaching Granada around 14:00. The 14:35 Madrid - Granada service should leave around 15:30-16:00 to be more attractive, especially on Fridays. On the opposite direction, there should be an additional Granada - Madrid service around 11:00. If those changes were made, there would be a train every 4 hours in both ways, leaving both Madrid and Granada around 7, 11, 15 and 19 hours.
> 
> And regarding Barcelona - Granada services, the Barcelona - Granada train leaves Barcelona way too early to be attractive for many potential users. It should leave around 09:00. And on Fridays there could be an additional service in the afternoon, around 15:00, thus attracting potential weekend travelers. It wouldn't be a bad idea to make these additional services call in Madrid, in order to gain more users.


Anyway, until they find extra staff, rolling stock, and extra paths between Torrejon de Velasco and Atocha (although I guess that they can couple trains at Santa Ana or Cordoba), that's complicated.

However, Gusiluz said that the introduction of the new Avant services from Granada to Malaga and particularly from Granada to Cordoba and Seville should happen by September, so that will allow a bit more versatility by changing trains at Santa Ana, Puente Genil, or Cordoba...



Bitxofo said:


> Loja AVE station is not finished yet?


It is and it isn't. It's actually an upgrade of the old station.

What isn't finished around Loja is the high speed line itself!

They found geological difficulties, so they decided to not build the section of the high speed line between Loja and Riofrio, and they've adapted the classic line with mixed gauge (triple rail) instead. This is what makes the travel time not very attractive.

The government now seems to want to build the missing high speed section between Loja and Riofrio anyway, though.
In which case it is unclear wether a Loja station would be built on the high speed line or not... :dunno:



Bitxofo said:


> Why the new AVE is not stopping in Loja AVE?


By now, only two Madrid-Granada and vv trains will. 
The Barcelona-Granada and vv won't call at Loja though, although that could later change... or not.

They have plans for a second Barcelona-Granada train and for extra Madrid-Granada trains, but right now they do have a shortage of rolling stock and staff.


----------



## kokomo

I still recall those Estrella-type trains which left Chamartin around 11pm and arrived at Granada early in the morning :grandpa:


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## Bitxofo

arctic_carlos said:


> Read the table in 437.001’s post 4112. Two daily Madrid - Granada and Granada - Madrid AVE services will stop in Loja.
> 
> And there isn’t a new AVE station in Loja, the old one has been simply refurbished.


^^Thanks anyway!
My mother is from Loja but she lives in BCN, so she asked me for AVEs going from BCN to Loja...
:dunno:


----------



## 437.001

Bitxofo said:


> Thanks anyway!
> My mother is from Loja but she lives in BCN, so she asked me for AVEs going from BCN to Loja...


No direct train for her then, but she'll have two trains to Loja by changing somewhere along the line (Cordoba or Madrid-Atocha).


----------



## 437.001

*High speed line to Granada*

The high-speed line between Antequera-Santa Ana and Granada opened yesterday.
Between Antequera-Santa Ana station and Archidona the line is double-tracked, while the rest till Granada is in single track.
It includes a section through classic rail and mixed gauge, where Loja station is located.
It also includes Antequera city station, still in works and not open yet.
And it also includes a chord at Antequera which will make possible Avant services between Malaga and Granada (not yet, but coming soon). They will start operating later this year, if all goes well.

For now, there are three AVE services Madrid-Granada and vv, plus one AVE service Barcelona-Granada and vv.

Now Granada has direct AVE connection to Antequera-Santa Ana, Puente Genil-Herrera, Cordoba, Puertollano, Ciudad Real, Madrid, Camp de Tarragona, and Barcelona.
In the near future also direct Avant connection from Granada to Seville.
These have all historically existed in one shape or another.
In the cases of Tarragona and Barcelona travel times have decreased very significantly, they have about halved (I mean only the direct services though).

Granada also gets direct AVE connection to Zaragoza and Lleida. These are new, Granada never had any direct rail link to those two cities.
And in the near future also direct Avant connection from Granada to Malaga, which has never existed in the past, either.

Here's a video of the first passengers at Granada station:


----------



## CityDreamer

*New routes coming soon?*

An article on Renfe eyeing up possible running of services in France:

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/07/france-spain-high-speed-trains-renfe-ave-tgv-europe/593251/?utm_medium=social&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=citylab&utm_term=2019-07-09T20%3A37%3A22&utm_source=twitter

I was struck by the optimism in the following statement:



> Soon, passengers will be able to take high-speed trains from Madrid to the cities of Bilbao, San Sebastian, Badajoz, and Gijon, while new fast services are opening from Seville to Granada, from Alicante to Almería, and, in an upgrade of an already partly high-speed line, from Barcelona to Valencia.


Is this true? Are the lines to Bilbao or Badajoz likely to open soon?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Extremadura (Plasencia-Badajoz) will have a new line for 200 kmh in 2021 with hybrid trains. Bilbao, Vitoria and San Sebastián in 2024 at the earliest. 
This year only Monforte del Cid to Orihuela (Alicante), near Murcia.


----------



## JumpUp

"This year only Monforte del Cid to Orihuela (Alicante), near Murcia"

What about the new Madrid tunnel? Waiting for it to be opened for years….
It will boost cross-country services (from north to south and everywhere) so much!


----------



## Stuu

When is the Valencia-Alicante line due to open? It looks pretty much finished on google maps/streetview


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> "This year only Monforte del Cid to Orihuela (Alicante), near Murcia"
> 
> What about the new Madrid tunnel? Waiting for it to be opened for years….
> It will boost cross-country services (from north to south and everywhere) so much!


On paper yes.
The main problem is that there is a lack of rolling stock. Which has only worsened with the opening of the Granada high speed line.
And also that, the way things are right now, cross-country trains would be able to call at Chamartin only, avoiding Atocha since there's no platforms there at all.
Which is not the best way.

For things to be fine, the Atocha underground platforms should be built, but that will be very costly and very complicated operation-wise, since the Atocha station high-speed platforms are at full pelt.



Stuu said:


> When is the Valencia-Alicante line due to open? It looks pretty much finished on google maps/streetview


Not ready yet.

The section between Xativa and La Font de la Figuera needs to be regauged.
I'm not certain about the tension, Gusiluz knows better. But there were doubts about that stretch having its tension changed or not (current 3kV DC, planned 25kV AC).

For that to happen, the then-closed stretch of the classic line between Moixent and La Font de la Figuera must reopen (Iberian gauge, tension 3kV DC).
And that's far less advanced.

It's a bit stagnant at the moment, other works are given higher priority.

They're mostly the following:

-Madrid-Galicia high speed line (sections Zamora-Pedralba and Pedralba-Ourense).
-Monforte del Cid-Murcia and Murcia-Almeria.
-Venta de Baños-Burgos.
-Vandellos-Camp de Tarragona (this one should be the next to open, if all goes well).


----------



## 437.001

*Antequera-Santa Ana to Granada high speed line*

Looks like Adif is already planning to double-track the sections between Archidona and Riofrio, and between Tocon and Granada that are single-track.

Wise move.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia high speed line (under construction)*

Video uploaded on June 20.

It shows the start of tests on the section between Zamora and Pedralba, which will be the next to open on this line.
It will include the Sanabria station, which will be the closest railway station for the Portuguese city of Bragança.
But I'm not certain that said station will be ready once this stretch will open.


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## Khaul

Hmm, so there is a brand new HSR from Antequera to Granada for 4 trains a day each way?


----------



## Argüeta

In September they are supposed to introduce regional services to/from Málaga and Seville, as well as reorganize the existing connections with Madrid and Barcelona. That, and the reopening of the Almería - Seville, that is right now stuck in some bureaucratic issues regarding the ownership of the infrastructure, should more than triple the current setup in the near future.


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## alserrod

Khaul said:


> Hmm, so there is a brand new HSR from Antequera to Granada for 4 trains a day each way?


Up to day, yeah. All of them are long distance trains. This is, not regional or medium distance ones. You can get off in Antequera if you wish, but it doesn't worth according to prices.

It is expected to have new services as regional ones to Cordoba/Seville and to Malaga in september


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## 437.001

Khaul said:


> Hmm, so there is a brand new HSR from Antequera to Granada for 4 trains a day each way?


As for now, yes. There is an important lack of rolling stock, so running extra trains is difficult.

That said, the new high speed services to Granada are doing very well, particularly the Barcelona-Granada and vv ones. 



Argüeta said:


> In September they are supposed to introduce regional services to/from Málaga and Seville, as well as reorganize the existing connections with Madrid and Barcelona.


I agree with the first part of the sentence (September services to Malaga/Seville), but the second part (reorganisation of services to Madrid and Barcelona) I haven't heard of. 
Can you link a source to that?


----------



## Argüeta

I got it from the Spanish thread, but now I cannot find any specific sourced info, just some reasonably educated guess that might be right or not. 

The only solid info available at the moment is that Malaga is expected to have 8 daily connections (4 in each direction) and Seville, 6 (3+3).


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## Coccodrillo

Khaul said:


> Hmm, so there is a brand new HSR from Antequera to Granada for 4 trains a day each way?





437.001 said:


> That said, the new high speed services to Granada are doing very well, particularly the Barcelona-Granada and vv ones.


Single trains in Spain are quite well used but they are...rare.

I heard that an HSL can be justified from an economic point of view if it has at least 12 million passengers a year on its main section, and as far I know only the sections Madrid-Cordoba and the junction after Calatayud in Spain might reach this traffic.

So building HSL is just a political decision, which can be understantable as the old lines are really slow and could not attract much passenegrs anyway.

Doubling the Granada line can hardly be needed because of capacity, although it eases operations and is cheap anyway as the trackebd was built for two tracks.


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## alserrod

Providing number of passengers, it is true, almost all tracks couldn't deserve to be HSL.

HS railway has been part of a strategy in Spain. There are some cities that have had a before and after that HSL. Maybe it can deserve. 

It has changed system of transport. People is more used with public transport, not only railway, also commuters (you use railway or other public transport for almost everything).

Madrid-Barcelona takes now 2h30m the fastest. Before HSL they were 7:00 or so.

Do they deserve?. Let's consider some out of them have tunnels and other ones are really cheap to build


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Single trains in Spain are quite well used but they are...rare.


In certain cases, yes.
The lack of rolling stock doesn't make things any easier.

Madrid-Granada is a clear example.

But Madrid-Galicia is another. 
Right now certain trains on the Madrid-Galicia route are packed, and the opening of Zamora-Pedralba, with its subsequent cuts in travel time, will only make matters worse.
This is because better travel time means many more passengers, but if you don't have enough trains to increase the offer, you're starting to have a problem.



Coccodrillo said:


> I heard that an HSL can be justified from an economic point of view if it has at least 12 million passengers a year on its main section, and as far I know only the sections Madrid-Cordoba and the junction after Calatayud in Spain might reach this traffic.


There are still plenty of unfinished sections. Bilbao in particular will be a game changer.

That said, I suspect that a lot of these numbers you mention are "project car". You won't ever find such arguments against any road infrastructure. Only when it's trains.



Coccodrillo said:


> So building HSL is just a political decision, which can be understantable as the old lines are really slow and could not attract much passenegrs anyway.


...and the cost of rural land in many parts of Spain is much lower than in many places in Europe.
Just look at HS2 in the UK.

This also explains why new high speed lines are built in Spain, but much needed commuter rail new lines and extensions are never built, such as the Costa del Sol line and others.



Coccodrillo said:


> Doubling the Granada line can hardly be needed because of capacity, although it eases operations and is cheap anyway as the trackbed was built for two tracks.


Careful there. Once the Pulpi-Almeria new line is finished and open, rail travel in the whole of Southeastern Spain will dramatically change.
Right now, to travel from Granada or Almeria to Murcia, you must do it via Madrid, which is a ridiculously long detour, so people actually travel by car or bus.

The thing that's needed the most, though, aside from finishing what is left of the lines under construction, which is taking forever (and a big crisis in between), is new rolling stock.

Firstly, to get extra trains to be able to increase the rail service on existing lines, and to serve the lines that will be opened in the near future.

And secondly, to let the current rolling stock "breathe" and get a better maintenance.


----------



## Axelferis

intersezioni said:


> you are lucky to use the FRECCIAROSSA 1000, they are the most beautiful high-speed trains in the world.
> In comparison SNCF trains are regional trains


^^ Italy renewal services is very good for sure but France used to deploy HSL/TGV years ahead others european countries.
Now the fleet is old here but next generation of TGV for the entire fleet is coming:



Axelferis said:


> *Future TGV*
> 
> http://fr.euronews.com/video/2018/07/26/tgv-du-futur-contrat-record-pour-alstom
> 
> SNCF has ordered to Alstom 100 new TGV by 2023!!
> -TGV Duplex set to 750 seats rather than 500 seats now.
> -More connectivity
> -More energy efficient
> -Less expensive to produce


----------



## Gusiluz

^^
^^
The Seville LAV platforms are 550 mm high, and the rest 760 mm high (= Talgo trains).


















That is what is said in the European rail interoperability rules:
For platforms on the high-speed network where trains complying with the High-Speed Rolling Stock TSI and platforms on the conventional rail network are intended to stop under normal operating conditions, two nominal platform height values are allowed: 550 mm and 760 mm above the running surface. The tolerances applicable to these dimensions shall be - 35 mm/+ 0 mm.
Permanent specific cases ("P" case) are also allowed, platform heights of 920 mm above the running surface, in the S-Bahn services in Denmark and Red de Ile-de-France; 960 mm, in the S-Bahn services in Germany and Poland; 915 mm in Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Eire; 900 mm in the whole network in Portugal; 840 mm in Holland; etc.

As a curiosity: Stadler's Swiss EC250 has on each side two entrances at 550 mm (platform height in Switzerland, Italy and partly in Germany), in the car before and in the car after the dining car. In addition, all cars have on each side an entrance to 760 mm in the center of the car.



Suburbanist said:


> So no Barcelona/Zaragoza <=> Cordoba/Granada/Mallada/Sevilla trains on packs B and C (bypassing Madrid)?


The packages ensure a series of slots in the most saturated / saturatable axes and stations.
Whoever wants to put a Barcelona-Seville train, without going through Madrid, will only to have one Madrid-Barcelona slot and another Madrid-Seville from the framework agreement, or buy one of the remaining slots every year (30%).
The same is true for a -for example- Madrid-Granada train: you only have to have one Madrid-Málaga slot.

Saturation is not expected in the medium term in the Northwest axis, especially because the lines with standard gauge do not reach any of the coastal capitals, so it is necessary variable gauge trains that only have Renfe.


----------



## Sunfuns

I was just looking at Granada line, which I know is not yet fully finished. The ideal final schedule in my mind would be something like this:

- Granada-Malaga every other hour from 6 am till 10 pm with all trains stopping at Antequera
- Granada-Sevilla also every other hour (an hour apart from Malaga train) with trains stopping at both Antequera stations and timed in such a way as to provide a connection in both Madrid and Malaga direction
-Granada-Madrid five trains per day, two in the morning (ca 6:30 and 9), one midday (ca 3 pm) and two in the evening (ca 6 pm and 8 pm) with a stop only in Cordoba. 
-Granada-Barcelona two connections per day, one in the morning, the other in late afternoon

That would be a grand total of 25 trains per day per direction. There is probably not enough rolling stock right now, but would the infrastructure support traffic like this within 2-3 years? 

Living in Switzerland this seems like a proper frequency for a given size of these cities and distance between them. :cheers:

Ideally the train schedule and feeder bus/parking (to Santa Anna station) should be set up in such a way that commuting from to work from Antequera to Malaga and maybe Granada too is feasible. 

Whatever they decide I believe Malaga-Granada will be immensely popular with tourists.


----------



## 437.001

Suburbanist said:


> So no Barcelona/Zaragoza <=> Cordoba/Granada/Mallada/Sevilla trains on packs B and C (bypassing Madrid)?


I guess you mean Malaga.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> So no Barcelona/Zaragoza <=> Cordoba/Granada/Mallada/Sevilla trains on packs B and C (bypassing Madrid)?


I guess not yet,

(nor Avant, regional high speed trains, within those lines like Malaga-Seville, Madrid-Puertollano, Calatayud-Zaragoza or Lerida-Barcelona for instance)

in addition, I do not remember if Granada is incluided or doesn't


----------



## cheehg

Sunfuns said:


> I was just looking at Granada line, which I know is not yet fully finished. The ideal final schedule in my mind would be something like this:
> 
> - Granada-Malaga every other hour from 6 am till 10 pm with all trains stopping at Antequera
> - Granada-Sevilla also every other hour (an hour apart from Malaga train) with trains stopping at both Antequera stations and timed in such a way as to provide a connection in both Madrid and Malaga direction
> -Granada-Madrid five trains per day, two in the morning (ca 6:30 and 9), one midday (ca 3 pm) and two in the evening (ca 6 pm and 8 pm) with a stop only in Cordoba.
> -Granada-Barcelona two connections per day, one in the morning, the other in late afternoon
> 
> That would be a grand total of 25 trains per day per direction. There is probably not enough rolling stock right now, but would the infrastructure support traffic like this within 2-3 years?
> 
> Living in Switzerland this seems like a proper frequency for a given size of these cities and distance between them. :cheers:
> 
> Ideally the train schedule and feeder bus/parking (to Santa Anna station) should be set up in such a way that commuting from to work from Antequera to Malaga and maybe Granada too is feasible.
> 
> Whatever they decide I believe Malaga-Granada will be immensely popular with tourists.


Spain doesn't have fixed hour timetable. It is very difficult to do transfer. Sometimes it is difficult to get the ticket before departure. Seems there are not enough trains. I visited the cities near Madrid by train. I had to buy the ticket at least one day in advance. They don't sell standing tickets on HS trains.


----------



## alserrod

cheehg said:


> Spain doesn't have fixed hour timetable. It is very difficult to do transfer. Sometimes it is difficult to get the ticket before departure. Seems there are not enough trains. I visited the cities near Madrid by train. I had to buy the ticket at least one day in advance. They don't sell standing tickets on HS trains.


When HSL Madrid-Seville started, they set several new measures

- must be in platform 2 minutes in advance of departure
- check in (ticket is controlled in platform, not on board)
- 100% refund if 5 minutes delay (OK, schedules where considered to arrive 5 minutes late, thus... 10 minutes indeed). Nowadays, they have made all status and refund starts from 15 minutes delay.

that made it... no "goodbye" on platforms. May you wanted to be punctual, you had to be punctual. No one without ticket could / can entry into trains, nor approach into platforms.
Therefore, no tickets are sold on board in these trains. There are other trains where you can, but not on these ones.

About AVE, I would bet Tardienta stations is the only one where an AVE calls and... they cannot sell tickets (they can sell only regional tickets)

But, Am I wrong or in France you cannot buy on board too?. AFAIK, in the nearest regional line from my city, there's only one station with ticket desk and every station has a machine. May a machine is broken you may buy on internet, app, in another station or do not entry into train.

As I said in a Spanish thread, I bet, online tickets are about 90% of total sellings for HSL but I traveled Zaragoza-Valencia with my ticket in the app and conductor couldn't check if it was OK or wasn't... he just knew there was one ticket in the whole train.... thus it was mine!!!
The rest of passengers had a ticket sold in desks or machines and later, everyone requested on board (stations without machines)


----------



## Sunfuns

You can't buy tickets on board in Switzerland either, but you can buy up to few minutes before departure on your smartphone. Anyway that's not the point. My argument was that traffic should be more dense on this already excellent infrastructure and train schedule should be overhauled in such a way as to make transfers feasible. There are no losers in doing so...


----------



## cheehg

Sunfuns said:


> You can't buy tickets on board in Switzerland either, but you can buy up to few minutes before departure on your smartphone. Anyway that's not the point. My argument was that traffic should be more dense on this already excellent infrastructure and train schedule should be overhauled in such a way as to make transfers feasible. There are no losers in doing so...


I understand your point. They should add more trains. I hope they do after the HSR line is done. 
I mean they don't sell the ticket without seat, Even for 30 mins trip to Segovia or Toledo. I am not talking about buy the ticket on board. You cannot even on board without ticket.


----------



## TER200

alserrod said:


> But, Am I wrong or in France you cannot buy on board too?


You can if there is no check before the platform (not all stations have barriers, and manual control of all passengers before boarding is rare), but the price then is not very different from a fine :lol: (if you go see the conductor before the control it is less expensive).


----------



## alserrod

Sunfuns said:


> You can't buy tickets on board in Switzerland either, but you can buy up to few minutes before departure on your smartphone. Anyway that's not the point. My argument was that traffic should be more dense on this already excellent infrastructure and train schedule should be overhauled in such a way as to make transfers feasible. There are no losers in doing so...


I have checked.

There's a limit of 15 minutes to buy ticket. You can do with the app directly

Always, considering official departure from each station.

I remember when Online tickets started. You really was buying a ticket that would be given to conductor and he will give it (the same than in a desk) in your seat. In case of AVE (only Madrid-Seville), it was given in the check-in. If it was another train, you knew car and seat, you may go there and just wait.

But... there was a limit to buy 2 hours in advance departing train from the first station because conductor would print there all tickets. I remember than in a La Coruña-Barcelona, it was almost impossible to buy online direction Barcelona except in cases you had bought the day in advance.

Nowadays, it is just a QR code that can be scanned in a machine (you could buy, print-screen and later cancel it with refund. It will be refused because cancel).


Hint, if you bought a wrong ticket (day, station, or whatever) you have 2 hours to cancel it without fees even if non refundable


----------



## Sunfuns

cheehg said:


> I mean they don't sell the ticket without seat, Even for 30 mins trip to Segovia *or Toledo*. I am not talking about buy the ticket on board. You cannot even on board without ticket.


That's another great example - 10 trains per day as a shuttle, but why exactly is the first train only at 9:25? People could use this line for business trips to Madrid or even for commuting to work, but not with a schedule like this...

No need to treat this trip as a true HS long distance trip. I'd have trains starting much earlier, tickets not connected to seats and would also sell monthly/yearly passes. On this and maybe few other selected under 40 min trips only.


----------



## cheehg

Sunfuns said:


> That's another great example - 10 trains per day as a shuttle, but why exactly is the first train only at 9:25? People could use this line for business trips to Madrid or even for commuting to work, but not with a schedule like this...
> 
> No need to treat this trip as a true HS long distance trip. I'd have trains starting much earlier, tickets not connected to seats and would also sell monthly/yearly passes. On this and maybe few other selected under 40 min trips only.


I didn't notice it. But my problem was the trains operated as the same as TGV. Reservation is mandatory. And the trains are very short. Only four cars. I am sure there are many commuters but seems they have to book the tickets for every day use. I like the system in Germany and some other north Europe countries. They normally don't need reservations if you don't mind standing. 
It is a double track branch line but I think single line is more than enough.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ We don't think it's convenient to travel standing at 250 km/h.



Sunfuns said:


> That's another great example - 10 trains per day as a shuttle, but why exactly is the first train only at 9:25? People could use this line for business trips to Madrid or even for commuting to work, but not with a schedule like this...
> 
> No need to treat this trip as a true HS long distance trip. I'd have trains starting much earlier, tickets not connected to seats and would also sell monthly/yearly passes. On this and maybe few other selected under 40 min trips only.


The first train from Toledo to Madrid leaves at 6:25 and arrives in the centre of Madrid at 6:58. From Segovia at 7:00 with arrival in Madrid Chamartín (business centre) at 7:28.

What time did you look, 9:00 for the same day?


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## cheehg

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ We don't think it's convenient to travel standing at 250 km/h.


It is not ideal but It offers a choice for those don't mind to stand. 

Last time I took ICE, 2006 I think, I was standing with many other passengers. It was a Monday morning to Frankfurt airport. The train was running on 300 km/h and packed like a metro. 

Japan and Taiwan have non-reservation cars on HSR too.


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## davide84

There are safety concerns, it's not just an individual's choice regarding confort.

Switzerland has no reservation, but SBB started to stop the trains and ask standing people to unboard before running below the Gotthard mountain.


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## maginn

Almost all trains in China sell ‘standing tickets’ priced the same as second class seats too.


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## Sunfuns

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ We don't think it's convenient to travel standing at 250 km/h.
> 
> The first train from Toledo to Madrid leaves at 6:25 and arrives in the centre of Madrid at 6:58. From Segovia at 7:00 with arrival in Madrid Chamartín (business centre) at 7:28.
> 
> What time did you look, 9:00 for the same day?


My apologies, clearly I looked wrong somehow... Tried to find all the trains for a day a week in advance. 

As for standing what difference does a speed make if it's only 30 min?


----------



## Sunfuns

Standing is of course never convenient, but as an exception I see no problem allowing it on short trunk routes like Madrid-Toledo. 

There will be a competition soon, perhaps they'll try something different to stand out from RENFE.


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## parrocho

maginn said:


> Almost all trains in China sell ‘standing tickets’ priced the same as second class seats too.


Even Shinkansen trains in Japan. Maybe you must travel standing if you have not booked your seat in advance. And not only an exception or short routes.
Convenient? Maybe not, but in HS trains you don't have seat belts, so the difference between standing or seaten should not be great.


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## arctic_carlos

^^ When the HSL between Madrid and Valladolid opened, in 2007, 2 gauge changers were built: one in Valdestillas (18 km south of Valladolid station) and another one just north of Valladolid station. Some Alvia trains used the first one, while others used the second one (depending on their schedules).

Due to the construction of the HSL between Valladolid and León / Burgos, the second gauge changer had to be dismantled. Now trains from Madrid to Asturias change gauge in León, trains to Cantabria change gauge in Palencia, and trains to the Basque Country change gauge in Valdestillas (they will change gauge in Burgos once the new section of HSL opens in early 2021).

In order to eliminate the single track section in the HSL south of Valladolid, they have regauged one of the tracks of the Iberian gauge line between the tunnel of Pinar de Antequera and Valladolid station. There are 3 tracks in that section (2 in standard gauge, and 1 in Iberian gauge), while north of the station there are just 2 tracks (1 in each gauge). That means they will have to build a new standard gauge track from scratch in that section in order to completely eliminate the bottleneck for the HSL.

On the other hand, construction of the eastern bypass of the city (Iberian gauge, 2 tracks) for freight trains was resumed a couple of years ago. That will alleviate the current bottleneck for Iberian gauge trains, as the current single track through Valladolid station will only be used by a few passenger trains (mostly regional), with all freight trains diverted out of the city.

And finally, let's not forget that the current situation is a consequence of a chaotic planning: the current railway alignment in Valladolid was supposed to be put underground, but only with standard gauge. All Iberian gauge trains would have skipped Valladolid using the eastern bypass or would have needed to change gauge twice, north and south of the city. After the financial crisis, that project was scrapped, but there are serious capacity limitations for both gauges as there is a single track for each gauge north of the station.


----------



## davide84

Coccodrillo said:


> I think it is planned to open the section of this HSL where it is finished as a broad gauge non electrified line, and using the existing Osuna and Pedrera stations.


That would be efficient!


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Planning? Actually I think there's no such a thing in Spain when we talk about infrastructures, especially railways... :crazy:

For instance, the services that will use a new HSL are usually decided the week before the HSL enters into service. Or millions can be spent in building sections of new lines that remain idle for decades before the line opens because there's a missing section that hasn't been built (Basque Y or HSL between Valencia and Alicante).


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## Bitxofo

No comments about the new section "variante de Vandellós"?
:?
Opened in January the 13th...
Since yesterday, trains from BCN to VLC are 30 to 45 minutes faster!
:runaway:


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## arctic_carlos

^^ Just go to the previous page...

And this is not an aviation thread, BCN and VLC mean nothing here.


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## kbbcn

And there are no trains between BCN and VLC anyway.


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## alserrod

Not indeed, although it is possible to reach those airports freely with commuter


----------



## Gusiluz

I am very angry with Adif and Renfe, who have published my outline of the Vandellòs bypass as their own.


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## flierfy

Gusiluz said:


> I am very angry with Adif and Renfe, who have published my outline of the Vandellòs bypass as their own.


At least we know who we have to thank for these informative charts.


----------



## 437.001

Well… we now know the next openings…

In no particular order (because I'm not aware of the exact dates):

-Bobadilla chord (Avant services Granada-Malaga).
-Puigdelfi chord (Alvia services Zaragoza-Lleida-Cambrils-Valencia).
-LAV Murcia: Monforte del Cid to Orihuela (maybe Beniel), including a chord at Monforte del Cid for services calling at Alicante from Orihuela.
-LAV Galicia: Zamora to Pedralba.
-Torrejón de Velasco to Madrid-Chamartín.


----------



## Argüeta

Gusiluz said:


> I am very angry with Adif and Renfe, who have published my outline of the Vandellòs bypass as their own.


Send them a burofax requesting the cessation of use due to infringement of intelectual property. Not that actually suing is worth, unless you are a lawyer yourself, but...


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## Coccodrillo

In a way it is a clear demonstration that Gusiluz's work is very good.

In my opinion it is better not to do anything - to avoid that some other ADIF's boss decides that these drawing are "industrial secret" and tries to erase them from the web, including the forums where they have been published.

On a smaller scale, the local bus company in my city once published ont heir magazine photos of their buses taken by me. Again, I did nothing.


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## Gusiluz

^^ Thank you very much for your support!

It's a strange situation, because with my bad English and my schemes made with Word I'm not able to understand how big companies like Adif and Renfe don't have anything better to teach.

What I can assure you is that my information is first-rate, because by removing my explanatory notes they have made mistakes, such as making people think that unfinished branches are coming into service or that the mixed gauge is reaching Vila-seca, even though it is not true.

On the other hand, thank you with the legal advice, but I do not want to file a lawsuit because I am not interested in having my identity known.
I sent them private Twitter messages, but they haven't responded. If they had asked me for the scheme without my logo I would have given it to them without any problem, just with a little "thanks to Gusiluz" at the end.


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## krisu99

A pity they close the old line Vandellòs - Tarragona along the coast. Several towns lose rail access in this densely inhabited region. That is so 1980ish thinking....
I think it is a very valuable infrastructure they (who?) have decided to scrap. It could have been a chance to have frequent suburban services, well separated from the "new" high-speed line.

Or could it be that in the last moment they change mind? 

Ok, I guess their (real estate and car parking developers) wanted it by them selves...


----------



## 437.001

krisu99 said:


> A pity they close the old line Vandellòs - Tarragona along the coast. Several towns lose rail access in this densely inhabited region. That is so 1980ish thinking…


Yes. 



krisu99 said:


> I think it is a very valuable infrastructure they (who?) have decided to scrap.


Incredibly, the local town councils, particularly Salou, who were adamant that the railway had to go away.
The Catalan regional government, and the Spanish government, acted only as yes-men for these town councils.

I think this won't do them any good - it isn't doing them any good, as this already makes daily life harder to many. But… :dunno:

Go figure.



krisu99 said:


> It could have been a chance to have frequent suburban services, well separated from the "new" high-speed line.


Could have been. But it won't be.



krisu99 said:


> Or could it be that in the last moment they change mind?


No. The line is being dismantled as I write (level crossings, OHLE, signalling, etc). 



krisu99 said:


> Ok, I guess their (real estate and car parking developers) wanted it by them selves...


Yes.

They heavily campaigned on the local press to make the local people support it. Which they did. And now...

Day 1 after the closure - a lady goes to the now-closed for good Salou station and gets quite crossed at the fact she can't buy a ticket as there are no more trains. 
Next was a journalist with a mic, asked the lady "are you not happy that the railway line's been closed?".
Lady answers: "I'm quite glad that the line's finally closed for good, but no one told us that the trains wouldn't run any longer!!!".

:gaah:

Life is stranger than fiction, I tell ya. :crazy:


----------



## Coccodrillo

According to OpenStreetMap there is still a stub to Port Aventura, is it true? Do trains run till there? https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/41.0861/1.1455

If it is so, it could be easy to maintain the track a little bit further, with a new station around here: https://www.google.ch/maps/place/43...xd7c326633a33be5!8m2!3d41.0777581!4d1.1315203

Well, just after having written this, I searched the web and found that they are apparently doing exactly this: https://www.diaridetarragona.com/co...tren-de-Salou-PortAventura-20200124-0020.html

But I don't know if it will be in addition to Port Aventura station or if it will replace it.


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> According to OpenStreetMap there is still a stub to Port Aventura, is it true? Do trains run till there? https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/41.0861/1.1455


Yes. But none of them will be high-speed rail.



Coccodrillo said:


> If it is so, it could be easy to maintain the track a little bit further, with a new station around here: https://www.google.ch/maps/place/43...xd7c326633a33be5!8m2!3d41.0777581!4d1.1315203


That won't be the case.



Coccodrillo said:


> Well, just after having written this, I searched the web and found that they are apparently doing exactly this: https://www.diaridetarragona.com/co...tren-de-Salou-PortAventura-20200124-0020.html
> 
> But I don't know if it will be in addition to Port Aventura station or if it will replace it.


No, it's not that. It's just an upgrade of the current Port Aventura station.

And none of it is related to high-speed rail.


----------



## Shenkey

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Thank you very much for your support!
> 
> 
> 
> It's a strange situation, because with my bad English and my schemes made with Word I'm not able to understand how big companies like Adif and Renfe don't have anything better to teach.
> 
> 
> 
> What I can assure you is that my information is first-rate, because by removing my explanatory notes they have made mistakes, such as making people think that unfinished branches are coming into service or that the mixed gauge is reaching Vila-seca, even though it is not true.
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, thank you with the legal advice, but I do not want to file a lawsuit because I am not interested in having my identity known.
> 
> I sent them private Twitter messages, but they haven't responded. If they had asked me for the scheme without my logo I would have given it to them without any problem, just with a little "thanks to Gusiluz" at the end.




Should also send them corrections and some “would happy to provide services for some contract”


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## OriK

Shenkey said:


> Should also send them corrections and some “would happy to provide services for some contract”


Contracts cannot (shouldn't?) be discrectionally awarded in the public sector so 0 chances of that happening.


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## Shenkey

Usually only over a certain amount


----------



## Gusiluz

In Spain (as we have seen in France), patients are to be transferred by Covid-19 from overcrowded hospitals to others with free places in intensive care (UCI).
Talgo S-730 trains will be used for this purpose as they are completely versatile: 3 kV DC 25 kV AC and diesel mode, as well as automatic gauge change between 1435 and 1668 mm.



Seats have already been removed to facilitate the positioning of stretchers; however, access to PMR (reduced mobility) seats is quite easy. 
Each train will be able to transport 18 patients.


----------



## Zaz965

my cute @Gusiluz  








is Talgo the unique constructor of this tecnology?


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## Gusiluz

^^ You force me to write a lot in English, which is not my main language.

I don't know anything like that in the whole world.

All passenger cars have normal or Jacobs boogie (articulated), but all Talgo cars have two independent wheels; in the photo you can see that they are not connected by any axle. This makes possible a low floor (760 mm) along the whole train. Each of these wheels is guided by the previous one in the direction of travel so that rolling resistance and noise in the curve are kept to a minimum.

As for the tilting, most of the systems are active (they are tilted by means of mechanical devices) although there are already some passive ones, but I don't know any of these last ones where the carbody hangs at that height (you can see it perfectly in the photo) so that the carbody itself acts as a pendulum. In this way there is no need for any system to induce the inclination, and there is no possibility of error either: each car tilts as much as necessary according to the speed and radius of the curve.

In the case of the new wide body Avril trains (S-106 and 122), the suspension is the same (pneumatic and spring), with the difference that the _balonas _(I don't know how it is in English: that kind of ball you see in the picture near the roof) are at half height instead of above.


There is also the non-stop automatic gauge change (in service since 1966), but that's another story.

Talgo's explain it much better on its website, and in English.


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## Gusiluz

Finally, three Talgo S-730 trains have been adapted for the transfer of patients from Covid-19; 18 on each train.

The adaptation (sanitization, disassembly of elements and anchoring of sanitary equipment) has been carried out in the joint workshops of Renfe and Talgo in Fuencarral (Madrid).
.




Talgo S-730 trains will be used for this purpose as they are completely versatile: 3 kV DC 25 kV AC and diesel mode, as well as automatic gauge change between 1435 and 1668 mm. 

The trains originally have two places for people with reduced mobility (PMR) and a low floor along all the doors.


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## Gusiluz

More photos of the refurbished interior of the medicalised trains:





































Source: Madrid Diario


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## 437.001

Hi.

As some of you must have realised, I haven't kept up with a lot of stuff happening in Spain...

...but I knew that the Galicia HSL works are starting to reach a very advanced stage.

Tests have happened in the section between Zamora and Pedralba.
Are they still going on?

When this crisis is over, are they supposed to end the tests and allow that stretch to finally open?
How much will it save (up to one hour, if I remember well?).

One other question.
How about new rolling stock? They desperately need it.


----------



## Sunfuns

Usually we rely on you telling us all these things 

I did just read (link below) that ERTMS tests on Zamora – Pedralba de la Pradería section are about to be finished by May 19th and Pedralba de la Pradería – Taboadela track laying to be finished by June and electrification by July. Clearly looks like the great saga of Galician high speed line is finally drawing to a close. 









ERTMS test running starts on new Spanish HS line


Adif AV started test running under ERTMS Level 2 on the 110.7km Zamora - Pedralba de la Pradería section of the Madrid - Galicia high-speed line on May 15.




www.railjournal.com


----------



## krisu99

Works seem to have resumed on the Murcia - Almeria HSL. This line is particularly interesting because there was no rail connection at al betwen those two cities at all, and the direct line further north between (Granada)-Gaudix and Almendricos (Lorca/Murcia) has been closed many years ago, breaking the once existing Mediterranean corridor.

Works on the double track 184km km Murcia - Almeria HSL started back in 2010 on a 27,8km central section, including 7,6km twin bore tunnel, but stopped a few years later once civil works were mostly completed. So the section remains isolated from any other railway line.
Additionally three short sections each around 7km long have been laid between Murcia and Lorca along the existing line during during the same time period. So far only the east-most section (Alcantarilla - Librilla) went into operation in 2007 (as single track, non electrified).

Overview:
Almeria in the left, Murica in the right:


Yellow: Tunnel
Green: In Service
Red: Works recently started
Pink: Works not completed or stopped for >5 years.


Western part:
Along a section approx. 24km long works have started in the past months (red). Still, around 18km are missing between the current Almeria station in the left and the now under construction section on the right. Note the 7,6km Sorbas Tunnel (yellow). The extensive white surfaces are in fact plastic roofs of greenhouses btw, that is where most Spanish fruits sold all across Europe come from ....




Eastern part:
The approx. 25km gap between the section already built a decade ago (pink) and Pulpi, on the existing line to Águilas, sees preliminary works under way on about 2/3 of that length.



upload images without account

BTW, does anyone know how the HSL will be integrated with the existing line and station in Almeria? Will there be some luxury like everything underground?
I hope they'll keep the current in-town station...
I did not find any maps about how the missing gap and the integration with the old line are planned...


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ The Barranco de los Gafarillos ans Sorbas tunnels (Almería) were built on an isolated basis in order to benefit from European Union aid before 2013.

The integration of the railway in Almería is being carried out by burying the section of the El Puche neighbourhood (390 metres); double track, we'll see if one is mixed gauge.









The station is in the same place.

Note: it's Guadix


----------



## krisu99

These is a web blog with lots of information about the LAV into Almeria:








Esperando la Estacin del Ave en Vera - Almanzora


Informacion y Servicios de Garrucha, Levante de Almeria



www.garruchadigital.com





... and has this map about how the LAV will enter Alméria:









An yes, it seems they do it again, burring the existing railway line.,


Anyway, this is a very interesting LAV as it connects two major towns factually isolated from each other trainwise...
There are only a very few examples in Europe where a new HSL also leads to new connections...


Ehm, yes its Guadix, not Gaudix.;-)


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## Gusiluz

^^ And "Murcia" 

It is announced as a line for mixed traffic, has sections with platform for single track and others for double track with standard gauge for 280 km/h, as announced, but the interaxis between the two tracks is 4.7 m, like the rest of LAV, so they can not exceed 200 km/h. There is a lot of fruit and vegetable production coming out by truck that could do it by train.

Murcia-Pulpí: 83.0 km double track (Intermodal centre in La Fuente de Pulpí), Pulpí-Vera Almanzora: 25.7 km one track, Vera Almanzora-Los Arejos: 27.7 km double track (platform completed) and Los Arejos-Andarax (surroundings of Almería): 43.3 km one track.

It will be the line for passenger traffic with Madrid, as well as for the rest of the obvious destinations.
Murcia-Almería: 1 h 5 m (about 175 km/h on average), Madrid-Almería (3 h 30 m, announced, but will be 3 h 45 m minimum) and Barcelona-Almería (4 h 20 m, announced, but will be 5 h 5 m minimum)


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## arctic_carlos

krisu99 said:


> Anyway, this is a very interesting LAV as it connects two major towns factually isolated from each other trainwise...
> There are only a very few examples in Europe where a new HSL also leads to new connections...


This is not so uncommon in Spain. Just take the case of Segovia or Cuenca. These two cities had very bad rail connections before the arrival of HSR, just regional trains to Madrid (the case of Segovia) and regional trains to Madrid and Valencia (the case of Cuenca). 

Currently Segovia has train connections to practically all the cities in northern Spain and even to the Mediterranean coast, while Cuenca now has connections to many other cities (Alicante, Albacete, Murcia, Castellón... and for a few years it even had trains to Barcelona). There's even a Gijón - Castellón Alvia train that calls in both Segovia and Cuenca. :lol:

The only inconvenience is that in both Segovia and Cuenca the new HSR stations were built in the outskirts of the cities, but I guess that for both cities the benefits are greater than the losses.


----------



## alserrod

In addition, Guadalajara has HSL despite there are not services through Madrid (you can use it but it is strongly expensive for a short journey, you may move 7 km away and you will save 15-20 minutes comparing with a commuter.
But Toledo changed regional trains for HSL-regional trains with a good service, Ciudad Real and Puertollano started to be known when HSL arrived and so on.


----------



## 437.001

Gusiluz said:


> And "Murcia"


Well I think that krisu99 is not that wrong in writing _"Murica"_ instead of "Murcia". 👽
If there's one area in Europe that ressembles the American Far West, it's very much the Murcia/Almeria/Granada area.
Sierra Nevada, the canyon of Gorafe, the desert of Tabernas...
You only need Clint Eastwood turning up. 



Gusiluz said:


> It is announced as a line for mixed traffic, has sections with platform for single track and others for double track with standard gauge for 280 km/h, as announced, but the interaxis between the two tracks is 4.7 m, like the rest of LAV, so they can not exceed 200 km/h. There is a lot of fruit and vegetable production coming out by truck that could do it by train.
> 
> Murcia-Pulpí: 83.0 km double track (Intermodal centre in La Fuente de Pulpí), Pulpí-Vera Almanzora: 25.7 km one track, Vera Almanzora-Los Arejos: 27.7 km double track (platform completed) and Los Arejos-Andarax (surroundings of Almería): 43.3 km one track.


Single-track but with platform prepared for double-track? Or REALLY single-track?



Gusiluz said:


> (Intermodal centre in La Fuente de Pulpí)


What is this La Fuente de Pulpí thing? It's the first time I read about it.
I've been through Pulpí and Almendricos by train some years ago, and there was no trace of any "intermodal centre" at Pulpi, as far as I'm aware...



arctic_carlos said:


> This is not so uncommon in Spain. Just take the case of Segovia or Cuenca. These two cities had very bad rail connections before the arrival of HSR, just regional trains to Madrid (the case of Segovia) and regional trains to Madrid and Valencia (the case of Cuenca).
> 
> Currently Segovia has train connections to practically all the cities in northern Spain and even to the Mediterranean coast, while Cuenca now has connections to many other cities (Alicante, Albacete, Murcia, Castellón... and for a few years it even had trains to Barcelona). There's even a Gijón - Castellón Alvia train that calls in both Segovia and Cuenca. :lol:


While it's certainly true that Cuenca has seen its railway connections incredibly improved, it has to be said that if by the 1980's/1990's Cuenca had awful rail connection, that was more due to the dereliction of the Madrid to Valencia via Cuenca and Requena line.
Renfe simply chose to privilege the line to Valencia via Alcazar and Albacete...
There used to be a long-distance Madrid to Barcelona via Cuenca train in the 1980's though. I used it.

That said, where Cuenca has seen a massive upgrade, it is on its communications with the south east (Alicante, Murcia), and particularly with Albacete, a neighbouring province of its own region of Castile-La Mancha, which paradoxically had never ever had a direct train to Cuenca.
It's being well used, now that they have it, as the classic rail network in Castile-La Mancha had been built in a rather Madrid-centric way, so intra-regional communications there have traditionally been quite horrendous, when not simply non-existing.

The Segovia case is quite different though.
The improvement of rail connections in Segovia has happened mostly at the expense of another province, Avila, which now has only regional trains when it used to have tons of long-distance trains…
And also at the expense of Riaza (in Segovia province itself, but further east), and Aranda de Duero (in Burgos province), and which have both seen its classic line closed.

While Segovia city has seen its communications with many places in Northern Spain incredibly improved, Avila has seen many many trains just move to Segovia, and Aranda now sees no trains at all!!! 
This hasn't left many happy people in Avila and in Aranda, as the main line had always been the Avila one (the Segovia classic line is very bendy, and Segovia is a terminus station so through trains had to do a reversal), and the Aranda classic line was the main line for trains to the Basque Country (Bilbao, Hendaye).

In the past, Segovia also used to have long-distance and regional trains to Valladolid and beyond, but much less than Avila or Aranda, and they disappeared in the early eighties, and finally the Segovia to Medina del Campo classic line closed in the early 1990's.



alserrod said:


> Ciudad Real and Puertollano started to be known when HSL arrived and so on.


Everybody in Spain who is not illiterate and/or thick has always known about these two cities, man.
That's basic geography… 
But quite another thing is their being touristy, which they aren't at all, because, to be honest, there's not much to see in any of the two these days (there used to be 100 years ago though, pity that much got lost).
At least, there's always nearby Almagro, which is a jewel, but that's on the classic line...


----------



## arctic_carlos

Works on the Castejón de Ebro - Pamplona HSL near Marcilla (Navarra):










Source: 









El virus pone más retraso a las obras del TAV


La pandemia paró unos días los trabajos y dejó en suspenso las reuniones para zanjar la conexión con la 'Y vasca'




www.noticiasdenavarra.com


----------



## Gusiluz

437.001 said:


> ...
> What is this La Fuente de Pulpí thing? It's the first time I read about it.
> I've been through Pulpí and Almendricos by train some years ago, and there was no trace of any "intermodal centre" at Pulpi, as far as I'm aware...
> ...





> Fuentes gubernamentales así lo han aclarado y los empresarios pulpileños y del Almanzora, que promueven un Centro Intermodal junto a *La Fuente de Pulpí*, han confirmado que esa es la idea presente en el proyecto del Administrador de Infraestructuras Ferroviarias


Source.


----------



## Gusiluz

The *Murcia-Almería HSL* will have a length of 186.1 km (without accesses) in standard gauge. It is advertised for mixed traffic with a maximum speed of between 250 and 300 km/h (220/250 in Murcia) and 100 km/h for freight. During the first phase of operation it will keep traffic at Iberian gauge until the entire C2 line is changed to standard gauge.
The modified platform is for double track between Murcia and Pulpí, except in the Alhama-Totana and Totana-Lorca sections (for three tracks: two in standard and one in iberian gauge).



Almeria Train Station:


Sorbas Tunnel:


More information in Spanish


----------



## Sunfuns

I imagine there will be Barcelona-Almeria Alvia service in a medium term. Any idea how long would that take? Around 5 h perhaps?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ They announced 4:20 but it is impossible: Barcelona-Valencia 2:40 Valencia-Murcia direct announced 1:20 plus Murcia-Almeria 1:05 add up to 5:15 and will be more: about 5:30
Madrid-Almería announced in 5:45 more stops, about 6 h


----------



## Sunfuns

Well, it's a lot faster than driving (ca 8 h), but I suspect a lot of people will still choose to fly. Of course the train still very useful for all the miriad of intermediate connections.


----------



## Stuu

Is there a (very) long term plan to go west from Almeria to El Ejido? Must be a lot of freight possibilities


----------



## arctic_carlos

^^ No.


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Is there a (very) long term plan to go west from Almeria to El Ejido? Must be a lot of freight possibilities


The coast right west of Almeria and until Roquetas de Mar is very steep, that would not be cheap at all.

Freight could start at Almeria anyway.

Sadly, the section between Almeria and... Nerja, will rather probably never be built, as, excepting the flat land between Roquetas de Mar and Adra, the rest of the coast there is very very steep, which would mean very long tunnels. The area being much less populated than the Costa del Sol, this means the section between Fuengirola and Marbella, Estepona, La Linea and San Roque (where it would connect to the Algeciras line) should be a priority over that (by phases though, of course, as that won't be cheap at all, either, but it is much more needed as the traffic jams in the Costa del Sol are horrendous in normal life - not now, of course...).

As for the sector between Malaga and Nerja... there used to be a line along much of that stretch (Malaga to Torre del Mar), although that stretch is less needed than west of Malaga. It was a pity that they closed the coastal line east of Malaga, as nowadays it would be quite busy (although probably not as much as Malaga-Fuengirola).


----------



## JumpUp

Hello,

in 2016/17 RENFE has ordered 30 new High-Speed-Trains, the Talgo AVRIL!
It was said that in 2020, the first Talgo AVRIL will enter service.

We all know, Corona is happening… But how is the construction and delivery of the Talgo AVRIL progressing? Are there any photos of the first train running for tests? 

Thanks!


----------



## DSimons

Are there any pictures of recent work taking place between Vera and Pulpi on the Almeria Murcia high speed railway?


----------



## Coccodrillo

And what about the Pajares base tunnel? When should it be opened? Is it still planned to close the old line? I planned to go on holiday in Spain this spring, also to travel on the old route before it is too late, but I had to cancel because of the virus disaster.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Don't worry because you'll have time after the coronavirus vaccine

The latest announcement is that it will be on trial in 2021 
There is some controversy with some evacuation galleries because of the new regulations, but I think they can be finished at the same time as the ERTMS tests
We expect it to be up and running by 2022










The idea is still to close the current line, which is in very bad condition and would cost too much to rehabilitate
All current traffic will flow through the new line











DSimons said:


> Are there any pictures of recent work taking place between Vera and Pulpi on the Almeria Murcia high speed railway?


There are names to look for photos








I don't have anything else


----------



## Coccodrillo

Gracias Gusiluz, yo veo que hay un cambiador al norte de los túneles, creo que sea por motivos politicos...porque así hay una via unica en ancho estandard, lo que reduce la capacidad pero, además, hace la gestion del trafico más complicada.

Yo veo tanbién que la via de doble ancho esté a el este, y el cambiador al oeste, y entonces todos los trenes de ancho estandard tendrán que bloquear la otra via. Por qué? La via de doble ancho había podido ser la de izquierda.

Thank you Gusiluz, I see that there is a cambiador north of the base tunnel, I suppose it is for political reasons...because that way there is a long single track section in standard gauge, which reduces capacity but also makes traffic management more complicated.

I also see that the dual gauge track is on the eastern side, while the cambiador is on the western side, so any standard gauge train will also stop trains on the other track. Why? They could have made double gauge the western track instead.


----------



## Stuu

Coccodrillo said:


> I also see that the dual gauge track is on the eastern side, while the cambiador is on the western side, so any standard gauge train will also stop trains on the other track. Why? They could have made double gauge the western track instead.


There's no practical difference surely? Trains will get stopped in one direction or the other by trains crossing over, it just affects whether they are stopped north or south of the gauge changer. Mixed gauge in both tunnels would have made more sense, but how many trains are there actually going to be each hour?


----------



## Gusiluz

The previous minister's plan was standard on the left and mixed on the right, and all HSTs would gauge change in Campomanes.

Now it is put in Iberian and, surely: I prefer it, almost all the HST will change in Leon, where there is always a stop for passengers, instead of in a section where they can circulate at 160 km/h


----------



## Coccodrillo

@Stuu: a northbound train travelling on the double gauge track in the base tunnel will have to cross the other track twice to change gauge and go back on the right track, blocking other traffic likely longer than if the dual gauge track was the left one. But you are right, given the likely low level of traffic and the in any case complicated operation of a dual gauge line there will be no problems in real life, especially if as Gusiluz said trains will mostly change gauge in Leon.

Another question: how many dual voltage freight engine there are in Spain? The new line will be electrified in 25 kV, so preventing not only the older engines like class 269, but also the more recent Bombardier class 253, going to Asturias, as these are 3 kV DC only. Are there plans to switch to AC the Asturias or will they remain an isolated DC network?


----------



## arctic_carlos

Testing is underway on the new HSL between Monforte del Cid (on the Madrid - Alicante HSL) and Beniel (15 km east of Murcia). Commercial services between Madrid and Orihuela will probably begin later this year. The arrival of HSR to Murcia will have to wait until the new underground station is ready, most probably in a couple of years.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1274000725287284742


----------



## Gusiluz

Coccodrillo said:


> a northbound train travelling on the double gauge track in the base tunnel will have to cross the other track twice to change gauge and go back on the right track, blocking other traffic likely longer than if the dual gauge track was the left one. But you are right, given the likely low level of traffic and the in any case complicated operation of a dual gauge line there will be no problems in real life, especially if as Gusiluz said trains will mostly change gauge in Leon.
> 
> Another question: how many dual voltage freight engine there are in Spain? The new line will be electrified in 25 kV, so preventing not only the older engines like class 269, but also the more recent Bombardier class 253, going to Asturias, as these are 3 kV DC only. Are there plans to switch to AC the Asturias or will they remain an isolated DC network?
> [/QUOTE]
> The "Cambio de voltaje" sign indicates the limits of the AC, and there are no plans to change the 3 kV DC of Asturias, the same as the rest of the line.
> 
> The purchase of two-voltage locomotives was announced, but has not even been tendered
> The 252 series (Siemens EuroSprinter) has 9 tritension for Barcelona-France, and 4 (5) dual voltage in principle for passengers in Galicia, but they are working under 3 kV
> 
> [ATTACH type="full" alt="225271"]225271[/ATTACH]
> 
> Diagram of the passage through León (see "Cambio de voltaje" sign):
> [ATTACH type="full" alt="225273"]225273[/ATTACH]


----------



## DSimons

Thank you for your reply, Gusiluz.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

The first UIC gauge train arrived at Ourense yesterday from the east, it seems.
It was a works train, carrying some stuff for the construction of the line.
This is a millstone, as it marks the beginning of the end of the works of the most expensive HSL in Spain.
Surely it won't generate as much transit as the Madrid-Barcelona HSL, but it will be an incredible improvement for Galicia, which up till recently was a very isolated region, rail-wise.
It took forever and a half to get to/from there.
Once it opens, travel times will dramatically decrease between Galicia and the rest of the country, and it won't be much further away in travel time than the rest of Spain.

After that, only will be left the new Ourense by-pass (to avoid some bends while entering Ourense), and particularly the Olmedo chord, to allow for HS trains circulating between Galicia and the region of Burgos/Basque Country/Navarre.

On the other hand, I'm not sure about the schedule for Zamora to Pedralba, as I think there might be some extra work to do at La Hiniesta to rebuild the damage caused by the last accident, but surely it won't take very long to open the new HSL stretch (months? less than months?).
This will be good news for the Portuguese city of Bragança, as the new Sanabria AV station will be the closest railway station they will have.


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ The tickets for Friday 26th are already on sale.
The section of the accident had a quick repair: it wasn't even electrified.

Without reversal, the longest route to Ourense in standard gauge is from Granada: 1,038.578 km exactly, today it can be covered by a diesel vehicle: an S-730 testing without passengers, for example.


----------



## Sunfuns

Right now Ourense-Vigo via Santiago on the high speed line and direct on the conventional one is virtually the same travel time disregarding any time needed to change trains (one could imagine direct via that route). Are there any ongoing works on the direct line which would change this math in favour of the much shorter direct route?


----------



## AlecC281

Sunfuns said:


> Right now Ourense-Vigo via Santiago on the high speed line and direct on the conventional one is virtually the same travel time disregarding any time needed to change trains (one could imagine direct via that route). Are there any ongoing works on the direct line which would change this math in favour of the much shorter direct route?


Yes, there is the planned construction of the southern exit for Vigo Urzaiz station (dead-end station), which consists of tunneling under the city and then connecting to the conventional line that goes to Ourense following the Portuguese border (Monforte de Lemos - Redondela line). This would reduce the time and distance to Ourense, as well as making connections with Portugal much easier.

This construction has recently been supported by the local government, I recommend you see the "LAV Corredor Atlántico" forum.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

Interview (in Spanish, and paywalled) with Isabel Pardo de Vera, head of Adif.









Isabel Pardo de Vera: “Ya tenemos maduros proyectos para modernizar el Corredor del Noroeste por mil millones”


"El viaje en tren a Madrid se acortará este verano una hora"




afondo.farodevigo.es







🔼 🔼 🔼
To summarize, in it she says that *Zamora to Pedralba* will open this July or August.
Travel times from Madrid Chamartin to Santiago de Compostela will decrease from the current 5h10min to 4h14min, which is an already rather decent travel time between Galicia and Madrid.

Zamora to Pedralba will include the new Sanabria-AV station, which will act as "Bragança station" (for the nearby Portuguese city).
I hope the Spanish and Portuguese governments agree to upgrade the road between Bragança and Puebla de Sanabria, and perhaps even create a regular bus shuttle between the two would do (perhaps, I'm not sure about the future number of passengers there).

She also says that *Pedralba to Ourense* will open some time in Summer 2021 (no exact date yet).
I don't find it unlikely.


----------



## AlecC281

437.001 said:


> *Madrid-Galicia HSL*
> 
> Interview (in Spanish, and paywalled) with Isabel Pardo de Vera, head of Adif.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isabel Pardo de Vera: “Ya tenemos maduros proyectos para modernizar el Corredor del Noroeste por mil millones”
> 
> 
> "El viaje en tren a Madrid se acortará este verano una hora"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afondo.farodevigo.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To summarize, in it she says that *Zamora to Pedralba* will open this July or August.
> Travel times from Madrid Chamartin to Santiago de Compostela will decrease from the current 5h10min to 4h14min, which is an already rather decent travel time between Galicia and Madrid.
> 
> Zamora to Pedralba will include the new Sanabria-AV station, which will act as "Bragança station" (for the nearby Portuguese city).
> I hope the Spanish and Portuguese governments agree to upgrade the road between Bragança and Puebla de Sanabria, and perhaps even create a regular bus shuttle between the two would do (perhaps, I'm not sure about the future number of passengers there).
> 
> She also says that *Pedralba to Ourense* will open some time in Summer 2021 (no exact date yet).
> I don't find it unlikely.


There are little more than 30kms from Bragança to Sanabria, but the road makes it a ~50 min trip.
There would have to be built a highway style road (straight sections; +100km/h) to make it an efficient enough connection, but I don't see that happening any time soon


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

Some videos of the test runs on the new Zamora to Pedralba stretch of the HSL.


----------



## Gusiluz

With the latest data from the Court of Auditors (from 2017 there are also those from 2014 2015 and 2016) I have prepared this table because the original one seems a little cryptic to me.
It deals with the economic profitability for the high-speed infrastructure manager in Spain, as a whole and by line.

The original:









And mine, by adding some data taken from the original via Excel:









I'll explain the data a little:

If the high speed railway had been built like the motorway network (thanks to the state's debt, and not through the debt of the GIF and Adif AV, and with the interest also at their expense) it would be enough to subtract the expenses from the income to know if something is economically profitable. This is what I call Income less expenses (2), which includes all expenses, not only maintenance, except those paid directly by Renfe to Adif (agreements, supplies, electricity); it includes common expenses, planning, security, circulation...
According to this, the HSR is economically profitable as a whole, and so are all the lines except Madrid-Toledo and Madrid-Valladolid (the mixed traffic lines have their peculiarities, and Madrid-Zamora will make sense when it reaches Ourense). Madrid-Toledo is a PSO and therefore these losses are subsidised by the National Government. Madrid-Valladolid (also Córdoba-Málaga) is penalized for the Guadarrama tunnels, among others: it has 27.6% of the route in a tunnel. But, personally, I firmly believe it is a very good money invested: if it were not for Guadarrama tunnels Renfe's services to the whole Spanish northwest (from Galicia to Euskadi) would consist of one train per day per destination (so that nobody could say "they have taken the train away") that -in addition- would lose much more than those 19 M a year because they would not be competitive with absolutely nothing.

Since the accounting is what it is (or what they want it to be), we can see how - even so - they are still profitable (in the sense that it would be if a private company had built and financed the HSR, such as TP Ferro with the El Pertús tunnel. Sorry, maybe it is not a good example, but you understand what I mean, right?), I say that Madrid-Seville and Madrid-Barcelona are still profitable (and the sections transferred from conventional to Adif AV in Granada and Extremadura).

The Court of Auditors says nothing about the social profitability of a public service.

These are the data, whoever wants to read the opposite only has to see the "news" from any media, especially from the Spanish.


----------



## 437.001

Introducing the new Renfe class S-106 high-speed train (still without bogies). 😎 😁


----------



## Coccodrillo

It has bogies, it is just travelling on rollbocks (Rollbock - Wikipedia).

From es.wiki: "Los gastos operativos del tren (mantenimiento, energía, amortización, financieros y por personal) serán un 18,6% más bajos que la media de los de las series 102, 112 y 103; si se comparan los gastos por plaza, estos serán un 41,3% menores."

So this is a confirmation that as a passenger this trains will sucks.


----------



## M-NL

Some German high speed lines are used by freight trains as well (AFAIK only when there are no high speed trains running). The only thing is that you need to keep a close eye on the running gear of freight trains as flat spots may impact your track quality and alignment. There is automatic equipment that can do that.
Could Spanish high speed lines be used for freight trains? 
Or is that to impractical given that high speed lines are standard gauge and regular lines wide gauge and there are no standard gauge facilities for freight trains? 
Are there through running freight trains from France to Spain? 
How far could a standard gauge freight train run into Spain from France without a gauge change?


----------



## alserrod

M-NL said:


> Some German high speed lines are used by freight trains as well (AFAIK only when there are no high speed trains running). The only thing is that you need to keep a close eye on the running gear of freight trains as flat spots may impact your track quality and alignment. There is automatic equipment that can do that.
> Could Spanish high speed lines be used for freight trains?
> Or is that to impractical given that high speed lines are standard gauge and regular lines wide gauge and there are no standard gauge facilities for freight trains?
> Are there through running freight trains from France to Spain?
> How far could a standard gauge freight train run into Spain from France without a gauge change?



I hope someone with longer knowledgement than me will reply you but ... answer is no.

A line can be designed for

only passengers (more allowed speed but restricted to light trains)
passengers and freight (more reliability but restrictions on speed)

AFAIK, Figueres-Perpignan tunnel is available for freight and passengers but I do not know longer lines in Spain (and I do not know if some freight could operate as passenger. This is, limit is tons/wheels... may a train with light freight or so be able to run... I do not know).

Another issue is different gauge. In Spain, slowly but keeping on, there are improvements to have mix gauges or to be able to have them in the future if needed.


----------



## Coccodrillo

AFAIK the whole HS line from Perpignan to Barcelona is used by freight trains reaching this latter city's port. Traffic on this internatioanl HS line is really low anyway, IIRC around 7 passenger trains per direction, plus half a dozen freight trains, a day.

Initially, when Figueras-Barcelona section was still not in service but Perpignan-Figueres was, freight trains used one of the tracks on the Figueres-Barcelona classic line which was converted to double gauge. I don't know if this track is still used by standard gauge freight trains (certainly not by standard gauge passenger trains).

Standard gauge trains from the rest of Europe could reach Sevilla, but as the only freight terminal with standard gauge tracks is in Barcelona, there is no reason for a freight train to go beyond that point.

Also the Basque Y is planned to have mixed traffic.

Anyway, the only sensible thing to do would be to replace all sleepers with those for both gauges (possibily standard AND broad, not standard OR broad), and convert everything ASAP. In the south of the USA in 1886 did the gauge conversion in 36 hours...


----------



## M-NL

alserrod said:


> I hope someone with longer knowledgement than me will reply you but ... answer is no.
> 
> A line can be designed for
> 
> only passengers (more allowed speed but restricted to light trains)
> passengers and freight (more reliability but restrictions on speed)


A railway line has four important design parameters:

Track gauge
Maximum static and dynamic axle load limits
Maximum track speed / design speed (for super elevation in corners)
Loading gauge (also dictates overhead line height)
There is no reason you couldn't build a standard gauge, 33 ton axle load, 320 km/h track speed line with channel tunnel loading gauge. It is normally not done because a slow heavy train in a high speed curve will wear out the inner rail with super elevation proper for the high speed, whereas less super elevation will limit the track speed. And freight trains are more prone to having wheels with flat spots that may damage the track. That alone may be the reason you don't want it.

Mixing fast and slow trains on the same line at the same time also limits capacity. Because capacity is not the problem on most Spanish lines, I just wondered if they could handle the heavier freight trains, just to increase line usage. 

Note that only Germany occasionally run freight trains on high speed lines, but only at moments when there are no high speed trains running. Encounters between a high speed train at high speed and a freight train are not allowed. In fact if I understand correctly LZB will automatically create a moving slow zone on the opposing track when such train would enter the high speed line.


----------



## Gusiluz

Gasto innecesario de tiempo


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> It has bogies, it is just travelling on rollbocks (Rollbock - Wikipedia).


Correct. I just hadn't seen them when I wrote that.
Although bogies they aren't, in fact, but Talgo axles (engines excepted).


----------



## MarcVD

M-NL said:


> Note that only Germany occasionally run freight trains on high speed lines, but only at moments when there are no high speed trains running. Encounters between a high speed train at high speed and a freight train are not allowed. In fact if I understand correctly LZB will automatically create a moving slow zone on the opposing track when such train would enter the high speed line.


There once were freight trains on the Paris Sud Est high speed line in France. Hauled by specially equipped BB 22.200 running at 200 km/h.


----------



## TER200

Gusiluz said:


> What is the problem with Avril trains having lower consumption, maintenance and operating costs than the previous ones and the others that participated in the tender?


The problem is having less space par passenger and more slower boardings and disembarkings because of the 5 seats across configuration, I guess.


----------



## M-NL

The cars are wider so the space per passenger is not worse than better. A new ICE4 is 2,8 meters wide, the AVRIL 3,2 meters wide.
Lots of train have 5 abreast seating and don't have any trouble with boarding time. In fact the 5 abreast Shinkansen (3,38 meters) is the most spacious high speed train I have riden. A TGV/Thalys is really cramped in comparison.
The cars are also exactly half the length (14 meters) of a regular 2 bogie car (25 to 27 meters), so one set of entry doors is fine. The relative amount of doors is about the same as a TGV/Thalys, which has slightly longer cars (20 meters), but 4 abreast seating.


----------



## Coccodrillo

I fear that this Avril will have cramped seats, with not much space for legs, maybe not much space on your side as it should be 3+2, and with seats not aligned with windows. Travelling for hours in the central seat of the group of 3 with a view on the wall instead of the beautiful Spanish landscape will be an uncomfortable ride, much like an airplane.

At least in airplanes they usually allow you to choose the seat, so if you want to have a seat with view outside or with more leg space you can, by paying more. But for my experience, with RENFE it is a lottery, you might get a good seat as well a blind one. I remember around 10 years ago, when I went on holiday in Spain. I took a train from Madrid to Leon, but this trip was as panoramic as sitting in my house's cellar. I saw nothing. My worst train trip ever!


----------



## alserrod

20 years ago I remember I was doing every weekend A-C and return C-Madrid and Madrid-A. There were no promo fares and it was cheaper buying return A-Madrid and return Madrid-C despite A-C was the same train.

I didn't bother where I would be seated but I always asked to have the same seat for all the journey. It was a small station and staff could have time to glance which seat was available for me in those cases.

In addition, there are more options to offer you a random seat in some trains.

If you get a long distance train with a lot of stops they will try to join a ticket A-D with an D-F with and F-...
If you go alone they will look for a lonely seat (reserving those twinned seats for pairs or groups).

I remember in the Madrid-Huesca train, in Calatayud station, all movements are in the same cars. All passengers Madrid-Calatayud are seated together and all passengers Calatayud-XXXX entry in the same seats to optimize occupation.

I bet you will find it in any train

Obviously, a non-stop train has non-sense not to let you choosing seats... but system is still focused in those trains with several stops


----------



## wbrm

Just adopt the open reservation system from the German speaking countries already...


----------



## TER200

M-NL said:


> In fact the 5 abreast Shinkansen (3,38 meters) is the most spacious high speed train I have riden.


Because the legroom is really large in the Shinkansen. But in a train where the admitted purpose is to fit 20% more passengers in the same floor space (as the Avril and also the ICE4 or the new TGVs Océane and TGV-M) ? I fear the worst...
I don't find doors to be the troublesome part on embarking, most often you are just blocked by people looking for their assigned seats or trying to store their luggage.


----------



## davide84

TER200 said:


> most often you are just blocked by people looking for their assigned seats or trying to store their luggage


Like on planes, or on the Alstom ETR 600/610. I hate those. It does not happen on all trains, e.g. for other italian HS trains I don't have this memory... the train design must play a role. I am not sure about doors, but the tilting ETR 600 is narrow in everything, luggage compartments, vestibuli, doors...


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

A video of a test train on a test run between Zamora and Pedralba, while transitioning from single to double track at speed.


----------



## 437.001

*Murcia-Almeria HSL*

Works have resumed significantly between Los Arejos (south side of the Sorbas tunnels) and Almeria.
Also between Cuevas del Almanzora and Vera, on the north side of the Sorbas tunnels.
The following images are by SSC Spain member *segisdo*, I don't quote him so as you can see them better instead of inside the quote rectangle.


*1) Sector Cuevas del Almanzora - Vera (north of the Sorbas tunnels)*

Note the recent-ish seaside developments (that's Garrucha town), probably taking advantage of the very near future construction of the Vera-Garrucha station for this line.
Btw, there be scones, probably.





*2) Sector Los Arejos - Níjar (south of the Sorbas tunnels)*

Note how on the lower bottom left side there is a huge volcanic crater (extinct), the line will run at its feet. It's called _"Volcán de la Granatilla"_, but it's also known as _"Cerro del Hoyazo"_. Here's the *Spanish Wikipedia link *for this volcano (sadly, no English Wikipedia page for this one).
Were it not for the plastic greenhouses where massive amounts of vegetables are grown, the area looks quite a bit like southeastern California, Nevada or Arizona.





*3) Section Nijar-River Andarax (right by Almeria city)*

You can tell the river Andarax on the lower bottom left, running (not flowing much, to be honest) vertically towards Almeria city and the sea.









More images of the works from the *Adif official Twitter account*.


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> Were it not for the plastic greenhouses where massive amounts of vegetables are grown, the area looks quite a bit like southeastern California, Nevada or Arizona.


*Filming locations*

Most Spaghetti Westerns filmed between 1964 and 1978 were made on low budgets and shot at Cinecittà studios and *various locations around southern Italy and Spain.[14] Many of the stories take place in the dry landscapes of the American Southwest and Northern Mexico, hence common filming locations were the Tabernas Desert and the Cabo de Gata-Níjar Natural Park, an area of volcanic origin known for its wide sandy beaches, both of which are in the Province of Almería in southeastern Spain.* Some sets and studios built for Spaghetti Westerns survive as theme parks, Texas Hollywood, Mini Hollywood, and Western Leone, and continue to be used as film sets.[15] Other filming locations used were in central and southern Italy, such as the parks of Valle del Treja (between Rome and Viterbo), the area of Camposecco (next to Camerata Nuova, characterized by a karst topography), the hills around Castelluccio, the area around the Gran Sasso mountain, and the Tivoli's quarries and Sardinia. _God's Gun_ was filmed in Israel.[16]









Spaghetti Western - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## davide84

Spain urged to rebalance high-speed and suburban rail investment


A report has found Spain has over invested in its high-speed network while simultaneously under investing in urban rail networks.




www.railjournal.com





Interesting numbers...


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ Some of them fake:









































Their accounts show the purchase of high-speed trains, but not commuter trains
Commuter operating costs of 20% of the bus but, when you put the costs of each line, the total is much higher
Divide the costs of Renfe alone by the total number of local passengers in all of Spain (including regions)
...

Looks like a report tailored to what the government already wanted to do a year ago


----------



## Reivajar

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Some of them fake:
> 
> View attachment 384028
> View attachment 384031
> 
> View attachment 384030
> 
> View attachment 384032
> 
> View attachment 384034
> 
> 
> Their accounts show the purchase of high-speed trains, but not commuter trains
> Commuter operating costs of 20% of the bus but, when you put the costs of each line, the total is much higher
> Divide the costs of Renfe alone by the total number of local passengers in all of Spain (including regions)
> ...
> 
> Looks like a report tailored to what the government already wanted to do a year ago


What is the actual agenda of the current government? What do they want to do?


----------



## Gusiluz

^^

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1290922139059716096


----------



## intersezioni

Hitachi Rail and Bombardier Transportation Italy will build the 23 new Frecciarossa 1000s for high-speed services in Spain for Trenitalia for an economic value of approximately 800 million euros.

The new trains are part of a broader plan to renew and expand the Trenitalia fleet which - as a member of the ILSA consortium, also composed of the airline Air Nostrum - won the tender promoted by the Spanish infrastructure manager (ADIF) for the allocation of tracks for high-speed connections in Spain.
The 23 Frecciarossa 1000 will offer a new travel experience on the routes Madrid - Barcelona, Madrid - Valencia / Alicante and Madrid - Malaga / Seville with a number of daily connections up to 84 trips in total.

The trains, built in the Italian factories of the two companies, will guarantee a strong economic and employment induced for the country's industrial sector. After being built in Italy, starting from 2022 the trains will be transferred to Spain to begin the homologation tests and obtain all the certifications to be used also among the main Iberian cities.



The new Frecciarossa 1000, designed and built for a maximum commercial speed of 360 km / h, will have the same technical and performance characteristics of the trains that have already been circulating, since June 2015, on Italian tracks. The trains comply with all the International Technical Specifications for Interoperability (TSI). Furthermore, the Frecciarossa 1000 is the first high-speed train to have obtained the environmental impact certification (EPD) and is built with almost 100% recyclable and reusable materials, as well as having reduced water and electricity consumption.

The entry into the Spanish market is part of the internationalization projects of the FS Italiane Group which in recent years has positioned the main operating companies at the top in terms of quality and efficiency also abroad and especially in Europe.
Without prejudice to the priority commitment on the national market and at the service of commuters, even with the new Pop and Rock trains already in operation in some regions, for Trenitalia the new high-speed rail market extends to Europe following liberalization.

Trenitalia is present with subsidiaries in Great Britain with Trenitalia c2c and Avanti West Coast which manages services from London to Glasgow / Edinburgh; in Germany with Netinera; in France with Thello and in Greece with TrainOSE.









Ferrovie: arrivano i 23 Frecciarossa 1000 per il servizio in Spagna


I convogli saranno costruiti in italia e poi trasferiti.




ferrovie.info


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

In this video, *from minute 26:00 on* (it's a full regional TV news report in Spanish, if you understand it) we can see images of the *new Sanabria-AV station*.
It is a parkway station, and will serve the region of Puebla de Sanabria and its surrounding area, but also the northeast of Portugal (Trás-os-Montes, notably the city of Bragança).


----------



## JumpUp

Hello,

nearly three months ago, an Alvia train has derailed near Zamora.
Two trainsets of the RENFE 730 took major damage.

So now there are only 12 trainsets of RENFE 730 left (the other one derailed in 2013 in Santiago de Compostela).

My question: Is it very likely to the two in Zamora damaged train sets will return into service soon (or at least one of them?) Did RENFE change train sets for those services now? As far as I know, there is not much alternative to those RENFE 730 because those trains are allrounder (diesel / electric + change of gauge. That's very hard to replace with a different train).


----------



## AlecC281

JumpUp said:


> Hello,
> 
> nearly three months ago, an Alvia train has derailed near Zamora.
> Two trainsets of the RENFE 730 took major damage.
> 
> So now there are only 12 trainsets of RENFE 730 left (the other one derailed in 2013 in Santiago de Compostela).
> 
> My question: Is it very likely to the two in Zamora damaged train sets will return into service soon (or at least one of them?) Did RENFE change train sets for those services now? As far as I know, there is not much alternative to those RENFE 730 because those trains are allrounder (diesel / electric + change of gauge. That's very hard to replace with a different train).


I recommend you watch this short video which covers this subject about the 730s that you just brought up (if you don't understand Spanish use automatically translated subtitles on PC):


----------



## 437.001

*(Valladolid-)Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL*

Test runs with the Talgo BT at Burgos station.









🔼 🔼 🔼
It seems that the new stretch of HSL between the junction at Venta de Baños and Burgos could open "within months".
This would mean a slight improvement in travel times between Madrid and the Basque Country (Bilbao, Vitoria, San Sebastian and Irun/Hendaye), and also between Burgos and Leon (for transversal services such as Alvia Gijon-Barcelona, and Alvia Corunna/Vigo-Barcelona). Also for the Intercity Barcelona-Salamanca, but this train is currently suspended because of the Coronavirus restrictions.

<edited>


----------



## 437.001

Okay, so after a post by an inside source in the Spanish forum, I have to update...



437.001 said:


> This is the current schedule for the next batch of HSL openings (the order is mine, but with the exception of the Madrid connection, it's probably accurate): [...]


This is the current schedule for the *next batch of HSL openings* (the order is mine, but with added info by an insider):

*1) Zamora to Pedralba - opening imminent*, some say September 21, 2020, but it's not been officially confirmed. They usually announce it with just one week in advance, as it's a political thing more than anything else. Ongoing test runs.
I'm waiting for an insider confirmation to be sure of Sanabria-AV station opening at the same time as the new stretch.

*2) Monforte del Cid to Orihuela (Beniel)* - imminent, just a bit less (some say November 2020). Ongoing test runs.
It will actually open to Beniel station, but said station won't open for High Speed operation, so high-speed passenger services will be taking passengers only to/from Orihuela station.
It will include the new Elche-AV station, and the other station which will open for High Speed operation will be Orihuela.
It will also include a chord at Monforte del Cid junction to allow trains to go from Murcia to Alicante without having to reverse at Villena-AV.

*3) Torrejón de Velasco to Madrid-Chamartín* - should be imminent, but no one really knows, it is very delayed for unknown reasons. Some say they could open it tomorrow if they wanted to, but they don't seem to want to (lack of rolling stock?). Inside sources say February 2021. Let's see if this time's for real.

*4) Venta de Baños to Burgos* - "within months". Ongoing test runs. Inside sources say June 2021.
It will include the Venta de Baños chord to allow trains to go from Burgos to Palencia without having to reverse at Valladolid station.

*5) Orihuela (Beniel) to Murcia*. They're putting Murcia station underground and expanding it (current station's way too small, only four platforms for a city of over 400,000 inhabitants).
Inside sources say "maybe end of 2021". We will see... or we won't.
Or maybe what will be opening will be a provisory surface spur. I really can't see the underground whole station opening this soon.

*6) Pedralba to Taboadela (Ourense)* - Inside sources say "spring 2022". Works trains are using it, but proper test runs not started yet. The HSL will run up to Taboadela only, from there to Ourense station trains will use the classic line, which has been double-tracked (it was originally built with room for two tracks).



*High-Speed lines which will open later* (in no particular order, to open beyond 2022... I suppose):

*7) Navalmoral to Plasencia, Caceres and Badajoz/Elvas (Portugal). *It's advancing slowly but surely.
*8) Valencia to La Encina*. Still in relatively advanced works, but no date or guess yet. Extremely delayed, half of it has been finished for around 10 years, but no trains, because the other half is so delayed (it involves the reopening of the old, closed classic line and the gauge change and reelectrification of the current line).
*9) Leon to La Robla and Pola de Lena (Pajares tunnels)*. No one really knows. Go figure.
*10) Basque Y (Vitoria to Bilbao and San Sebastian plus upgrade of classic line to Hendaye/Irun)*. Will still take years.
*11) Pulpi to Almeria*. Still in early stages, but at last all sectors have ongoing works.
*12) Murcia to Lorca and Pulpi*. Probably after Pulpi to Almeria. Some parts are in use, others are yet to be defined (notably what to do at Lorca station), or yet to be upgraded (such as Lorca to Pulpí).

Other stuff is even less advanced.


----------



## ArtManDoo

🔼 🔼 🔼

Great to see the network will take shape more and more. Hopefully the testing goes well and, soon new services will be available for public.


----------



## 437.001

437.001 said:


> This is the current schedule for the *next batch of HSL openings* (the order is mine, but with added info by an insider):
> 
> *1) Zamora to Pedralba - opening imminent*, some say September 21, 2020, but it's not been officially confirmed. They usually announce it with just one week in advance, as it's a political thing more than anything else. Ongoing test runs.
> I'm waiting for an insider confirmation to be sure of Sanabria-AV station opening at the same time as the new stretch.


A well-connected forumer now says September 24 (if all goes well).


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL

Sector Pedralba-Ourense*

An update on the state of things.
This stretch will have a stunning 73km in tunnels, a major work of engineering.

I'm translating *elburgo*'s post. Do click on it to see all his interesting pictures. 



elburgo said:


> Images taken on Aug 09, 2020.
> 
> Looking towards Madrid.
> In hindsight, with a lot of zoom, you can see the houses of the village of Pedralba, and very blurry (black line) the end of the Requejo viaduct, which has 33 pillars, the pic's taken from Requejo.
> You can see the right track and the OHLE finished.
> The area of the central "boxes" is a transition from single platform (14m) for two tracks (even though there will be only one for now), to double platform for one track each (8.5m), whose axis are at least at 30m between each other from the beginning of the Requejo tunnels (behind the prhotographer) until the end of the Prado tunnels, a stunning 73km away:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With less zoom:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now looking towards Ourense, the two platforms keep on diverging towards the Requejo tunnel twin portals:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some technical building at Requejo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Near the Requejo tunnel twin portals. Track on the left with ballast, OHLE, and ERTMS wires being installed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On leaving the Padornelo tunnel, right track ahead (looking towards Madrid), we walk towards the Hedroso tunnel.
> At our feet, two viaducts, river Leira (168m), and river Río De Pedro (295m).
> The platform is being prepared for track on concrete base (not ballast):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After the Hedroso tunnel there is the Porto viaduct, after which one finds the Lubián tunnel. We're still on the right track (that is, looking towards Madrid):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still looking towards Madrid. At last I find track on concrete base on a viaduct, prefab, which gives continuity to the track on concrete base within the tunnel, without the need to have transition areas on ballast. At the end, the Hedroso tunnel.
> Side protections on the viaduct to avoid collisions with birds (eagles, vultures, etc). A big bird of prey may damage a high-speed train cabin if the collision happens at speed (there have been instances of this in the past in other HSL's):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U-turn and we look towards Ourense. Lubián tunnel portal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now looking towards Ourense.
> We're in between two tunnels, Espiño on our left (off-pic), and Bolaños in hindsight. In between there's a viaduct (Val de Parada, 41m tall, and 426m long). On this section there's double track.
> Note how there's no ballast, despite the distance between the two tunnels being longer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Between the Bolaños and Portocamba tunnels, there's the Campobecerros flat area, 1,502m long. If was supposed to be a passing loop, but it seems it's being left for later.
> This might pose some problem in case of strained operation, notably in winter (in case you weren't suspecting it, it DOES snow around here, temperatures in winter dropping well below 0ºC).
> Pictures taken looking towards Madrid, one of them of a GSM-R tower:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> Left to Madrid, right to Ourense.Twin viaducts yet again, Felgueira is their name, again between two twin tunnels (on the left the Cerdedelo tunnels, on the right the O Corno tunnels). The terrain keeps us from being able to have the full sight of the viaducts, which are on an alignment, and with a 9mm gradient, the same as the O Corno tunnel. Again, track on concrete base, not ballast:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings.


----------



## 437.001

437.001 said:


> *1) Zamora to Pedralba - opening imminent*, some say September 21, 2020, but it's not been officially confirmed. They usually announce it with just one week in advance, as it's a political thing more than anything else. Ongoing test runs.
> I'm waiting for an insider confirmation to be sure of Sanabria-AV station opening at the same time as the new stretch.





437.001 said:


> A well-connected forumer now says September 24 (if all goes well).


That same well-connected forumer now says it's been postponed again beyond September 24.


----------



## Coccodrillo

On that line, I always found strange that they decided to built one track of the HSL in a new Padornelo tunnel, and the other in the existing Padornelo tunnel on the old line, which was build decades ago for two tracks. In this section there will be two tracks from the beginning, or one will be laid later? If that's the case, where will the HSL track run? In the old or in the new tunnel? Will there be a speed limit on the track which runs in the old tunnel?

Knowing the Spanish, I would have expected them to build a full new alignment (that is, a new double tube Padornelo tunnel), or at least postponing that double tube tunnel and only use the old tunnel to save money, but with the idea to fully build a double tube tunnel later. The chosen solution is...strange.









Padornelo · 49574, Zamora, Spain


49574, Zamora, Spain




www.google.ch


----------



## Gusiluz

^^ The red track of the scheme is the current one, it was built for two tracks 60 years ago but, as it happened in Zamora or in San Francisco (Ourense) with the current clearance gauge only one track can be inserted. The speed is 140 km/h.

The last cut for works in the line was used in order to put in slab track with polyvalent sleepers (iberian and standard gauge, rail mounted only in iberian).
The HSR will initially only pass through the new tunnel (blue), while the current track will be used for freight and medium-distance trains.
Each tunnel serves as an evacuation gallery for the other
When there is a gauge change strategy it will be changed to the standard and will join the HSR in Vilavella.









Original, isn't it?


----------



## Gusiluz

@*Coccodrillo*
I answered only because (I thought so at the time) I was a distinguished member of the forum.
Now I see that it is not, and that I wasted my time answering a question: the same thing that has happened in recent years.
It will not happen again.
Now you will complain about the very low level of this forum; well, I'm glad.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Sorry, what are you saying? I don't understand...

Desculpame, no te entiendo. Si para ti es más facil, puedes escribir en español porque yo lo entiendo bastante bien, aunque no lo hablo ni escribo bien.


----------



## Sunfuns

@Gusiluz: I bet lot's of people read your posts and look at your drawings with interest. Even if we don't comment on them because there is nothing else to add...


----------



## Stuu

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'm surprised that Almeria via Granada is proposed, is the route via Linares really that slow?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> I'm surprised that Almeria via Granada is proposed, is the route via Linares really that slow?


Madrid-Granada on the HSL is faster than via Linares.
So yes, it's safe to say that Madrid-Almeria is slower via Linares than via Granada.

The whole current Madrid-Almeria via Linares route is flat-ish, and in parts, allows for good speed, between Madrid and Almuradiel (one station south of the end of the double track at Santa Cruz de Mudela).

And then, south of Almuradiel, it goes through the Despeñaperros pass, which is not the fastest, until Vadollano station, where the double track begins again to Linares-Baeza station.

Then the Linares to Almeria branches off the Madrid to Cadiz classic main line, and that is a mountain line indeed for most of its length, allowing for good speed only in bits of it, basically trains can only speed up between Linares and Jódar, between Fonelas and Fiñana (around Guadix), and between Gádor and Almeria, the section between Fonelas and Fiñana being the fastest.

The rest of the line is quite bendy, with some sections having some of the worst gradients in the whole of Spain.

It was one of the very first lines in Spain to be electrified, in fact (Almeria to Nacimiento, I think), because the freight trains needed it, but it was de-electrified, then re-electrified at 3kV in the 1980's (formerly it used to have another tension, tri-phase I think), although this re-electrification has been rarely used (and was extended from Nacimiento to Huéneja-Dolar and then the Marquesado iron mines branch, now closed, so currently there's electrification only between Almeria and Huéneja).

Besides, Madrid-Almeria on the classic line serves not many big towns and cities, the largest, and by far, are Linares and Almeria, the rest are smaller towns (Alcazar de San Juan, Manzanares, Valdepeñas, and Guadix, basically).

So going via the HSL allows this route to quite more populated areas (Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordoba, Antequera, and of course Granada, plus Guadix since the new services will join the Linares-Almeria line at the Moreda chord).

Later on, once the HSL is finished between Orihuela and Almeria, if not before, as it could be that the Pulpi-Almeria stretch opened earlier than Orihuela-Murcia-Lorca-Pulpi, Madrid-Almeria AVE services could be expected, as well as Barcelona-Murcia-Lorca-Almeria, maybe some of them limited to Valencia, and others extended to Granada, or maybe even beyond (Algeciras, Malaga, Seville?), as the connection between Murcia and Andalusia would be reinstated after some 40 years of closure, albeit a different line than the original Almendricos-Baza-Guadix line, which lead more to Granada.
That is one line they should have never, ever closed. But they did, Almendricos-Baza-Guadix was axed in 1985, which was the "Beeching year" for Spain...


----------



## Sunfuns

Is Granada-Almeria classic line electrified? If not would it be worthwhile to do so?


----------



## alserrod

It is not!!








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com


----------



## Coccodrillo

Yes and no, there are wires from Almeria until Huéneja-Dólar (and the nearby mines), but there are no electric trains running there (the overhead line might be active though, to avoid theft), as 437.001 explained some posts ago. It was originally electrified with a 3-phase system, where they also used some locomotives derived from the Swiss Re 4/4 I.









Cam. de Dólar a la Estación · 18512, Granada, Spain


18512, Granada, Spain




www.google.ch


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Is Granada-Almeria classic line electrified? If not would it be worthwhile to do so?


There is electrification under 3kV between Almeria and Huéneja-Dólar.
Between Huéneja-Dólar and Granada there is no electrification.
So you could say that almost 50% of the line is electrified.

However, the electrification between Almeria and Huéneja is very rarely used, although the wires are switched on.
It is probable that it might need a revamp once services from Madrid to Almeria via Granada start running.
Basically because not using it would make little sense, the line is rather steep, and electric trains will always do it better than diesel ones.
However, after such a long time unused, it is not only old by now, but in bad state.

That said, I've heard that they'd run the new Madrid-Almeria Alvias on diesel mode anyway, which is such a waste, methinks.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The track of the Almendricos-Guadix line near Guadix have survived at least until 2013, you can see them in Google Maps.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch





While in other section you can't even think there was a railway there.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch





But this station still has the electrification poles poles for lightning or other railway related use (since the line certainly wasn't electrified) spread on what is now an asphalted square.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch





There tracks begin again.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch





Almendricos station has been reduced to just a platform near the single running track, so in railway terms it isn't a station anymore.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch


----------



## Gusiluz

Article written by me (in Spanish) on the *Geotren *website about the liberalization of the railway market in Spain, its history, its keys, and refuting recent declarations by the CEO of OUIGO in Spain.








Liberalización del transporte ferroviario


La transposición de las directivas europeas ha traído como consecuencia la liberalización de los distintos segmentos del transporte ferroviario. (Última actualización: 01/12/2022) Calendario en Esp…



www.geotren.es





Also about the present and future of the HSR Antequera-Granada, although we will publish all the current and future ones.








Línea de Alta Velocidad Antequera-Granada


(Última actualización: 09/12/2022) El 26/06/2019 entró en servicio la LAV Antequera-Granada que, por su complejidad, creo que será interesante señalar algunos de sus detalles. El primer punto a des…



www.geotren.es


----------



## Gusiluz

Article written by me (in Spanish) on the *Geotren *website which aims to be an approach to the most complex set of actions in the railway sector in Spain: *the Mediterranean Corridor*..









El Corredor Mediterráneo al detalle


(Última actualización: 07/12/2022) ¿Qué es el Corredor Mediterráneo? La Comisión Europea diseñó un conjunto planificado de redes prioritarias de transporte (Trans European Transport Netwo…



www.geotren.es


----------



## Stuu

Gusiluz said:


> Article written by me (in Spanish) on the *Geotren *website which aims to be an approach to the most complex set of actions in the railway sector in Spain: *the Mediterranean Corridor*..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El Corredor Mediterráneo al detalle
> 
> 
> (Última actualización: 07/12/2022) ¿Qué es el Corredor Mediterráneo? La Comisión Europea diseñó un conjunto planificado de redes prioritarias de transporte (Trans European Transport Netwo…
> 
> 
> 
> www.geotren.es


Very interesting. The whole process of changing gauges is going to be very complicated. For the local services such as Murcia-Cartagena, does Renfe have any suitable standard gauge trains now?


----------



## Gusiluz

Thank you very much!

At the beginning of 2021 they will award the contracts for the hybrid suburban trains: 23 of Iberian gauge and 6 of standard gauge.

However, Cartagena will continue to have an Iberian or mixed track to Murcia for the suburban trains and the goods through Chinchilla.
Alicante-San isidro-Murcia: the two lines should change gauge at the same time.
Castellón-Valencia: in Iberian until they have the new trains in standard, having mixed gauge there is no problem.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Thank you Gusiluz. So, we can suppose that by 2030 the line from France until Granada, via Almeria, should be standard gauge only (no dual gauge)?

What will be the first line that will be converted from broad gauge to standard gauge only (no double gauge)?


----------



## Gusiluz

Will be maintained with mixed gauge Sagunto-Valencia, since the freight trains from Euskadi will run through Zaragoza and Teruel.

They will be changed directly to standard gauge:

Tarragona-Castellón (when there is double gauge on both tracks Castellón-Valencia)
Alicante-San Isidro-El Reguerón (near Murcia) (when they have standard gauge commuter trains: 2024)
Murcia Mercancías (freight station)-Águilas (same)

El Reguerón-Murcia Mercancías with double gauge for freight to Cartagena, the commuter trains will be able to have any gauge.


----------



## davide84

Gusiluz said:


> Alicante-San Isidro-El Reguerón (near Murcia) (when they have standard gauge commuter trains: 2024)


So AVE is starting to motivate the first conversions of Cercanas to standard gauge?


----------



## 592

davide84 said:


> So AVE is starting to motivate the first conversions of Cercanas to standard gauge?


Yeah, there will be a fair number of reconversions in the Mediterranean Corridor in the upcoming years.


----------



## 437.001

*News! 🔔

Alicante (Monforte del Cid)-Murcia HSL*

Well, it will be opening very soon, this we knew.
The opening date seemed to be December 29 2020, but now it seems to be January 1 2021.
But it could still change, I suppose.
It's all about finishing the tests, and fine-tuning everything.
As a reminder, it will open only between Monforte del Cid and Orihuela, with a new parkway station at Elche, while Orihuela station will be the current one.
To begin with, only two AVE per day and direction will run between Madrid and Orihuela and vv.
One would be non-stop between Elche and Madrid, skipping Alicante (except on weekends for the Orihuela-bound service, where it would also call at Cuenca and Albacete).
The other would call at Elche, Alicante, then all stations to Madrid.
This is subject to change, of course.

*Madrid (Toledo)-Extremadura-Portugal HSL*

Government confirms that Toledo will be part of the HSL, and that at Talavera trains will be able to avoid the current city center station.

However, between Talavera and Navalmoral trains will use the upgraded current line. 
And an additional station would be added at Oropesa (Toledo), between Talavera and Navalmoral.
Anyway, I guess this is subject to change.


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## Coccodrillo

How will be the line built in Toledo? It seems that to serve the existing station they would have to build a steep ramp and a tunnel under the river.









Toledo · Toledo, Spain


Toledo, Spain




www.google.ch





While in Talavera the current station will be replaced by a new one outside the city, right? Or will they build a bypass (without a station) for trains not stopping in Talavera?

This is a very good news because the previous project with a stub branch ending in Toledo was idiot. Unfortunately, they didn't change their mind and built the Medina del Campo AV in that stupid location.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> How will be the line built in Toledo? It seems that to serve the existing station they would have to build a steep ramp and a tunnel under the river.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toledo · Toledo, Spain
> 
> 
> Toledo, Spain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch


They are studying two options, one of which would not include any tunnel (!!!).

The station would be the current one, only that probably the extension would require new tracks and platforms, which would probably be on an embankment.
The embankment would be used to build a waiting hall underneath them, as the current one in the passenger building is too small, and is ultra-listed, so there's little room for an upgrade, although it will keep on being the main station building and entrance (Toledo has one of the most beautiful station buildings in Europe)
There won't be any tunnel under the Tagus, that could be dangerous, as Toledo station is within the 500-year flood area.
The Tagus will be crossed through a viaduct.
The question is what to do afterwards (tunnels, or trenches+embankments), and wether to carry on to Rielves, or to Cebolla.



Coccodrillo said:


> While in Talavera the current station will be replaced by a new one outside the city, right? Or will they build a bypass (without a station) for trains not stopping in Talavera?


I'm not 100% certain, but for things I've read on the Spanish forum, it looks like this could be a loop, a bit like at Zaragoza and Lleida on the Madrid-Barcelona HSL.

That would be a nice thing, at least if you think of the Madrid-Lisbon travel time.

It's strange when you think of it, because Spain and Portugal must have the worst railway links in the whole of Western Europe (not even UK-Ireland, Finland-Sweden, Poland-Lithuania, or Italy-Slovenia are that bad).



Coccodrillo said:


> This is a very good news because the previous project with a stub branch ending in Toeldo was idiot.


What was idiotic was to leave Toledo as a dead-end railway corner.
It's really hard to understand, as that's one of the main historical cities in Spain (and its former capital, no less!). 
I think that keeping it off the main lines (and there's a few one in the area, so one would suspect this was intended!!) has made it miss many opportunities as a city, and nowadays it is far smaller than it should probably be.



Coccodrillo said:


> Unfortunately, they didn't change their mind and built the Medina del Campo AV in that stupid location.


You're right, but what has Medina got to do with Toledo?


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## alserrod

What was idiot was to erase Aranjuez-Toledo railway. It let to link not only with Madrid but with commuters and regional trains


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## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> You're right, but what has Medina got to do with Toledo?


Nothing, it occurred to me this station. I don't know why, maybe because Medina del Campo AV was (and still is) also a badly placed station, like it would be a Toledo station at the end of a branch rather than along a line to Extremadura.

As for Finland-Sweden railways, yes there is only one because of geographical reasons, and it has no passenger trains and nearly no rail traffic at all (I read just only a freight train a day, maybe now it is a little bit more, but certainly elss than Spain-Portugal lines).


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## 437.001

alserrod said:


> What was idiot was to erase Aranjuez-Toledo railway. It let to link not only with Madrid but with commuters and regional trains


It can always be reinstated.

By the way, the plan also implies building three chords for freight, one at Villaluenga-Yuncler, another at Algodor, and a third one at Castillejo-Añover.

Which means that if they reinstated the classic tracks at Toledo station (it's not a very long section), classic trains could reach it again from both Aranjuez and Fuenlabrada.
But they'd have to do it.

This way, the section between Fuenlabrada and Atocha would be a bit less strained.


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## gincan

Coccodrillo said:


> Nothing, it occurred to me this station. I don't know why, maybe because Medina del Campo AV was (and still is) also a *badly placed station*, like it would be a Toledo station at the end of a branch rather than along a line to Extremadura.
> 
> As for Finland-Sweden railways, yes there is only one because of geographical reasons, and it has no passenger trains and nearly no rail traffic at all (I read just only a freight train a day, maybe now it is a little bit more, but certainly elss than Spain-Portugal lines).


It is a national sport in Spain, here local govenments compete who has the worst located station, think Tarragona, Burgos, Cuenca, Segovia, Villena, El Prat and they are still not finished, the new Reus-Tarragona station will be built in the most stupid location possible because delusional local politicians think the station located on the wrong side of the airport somehow is going to boost the airport status, complete idiots, only slightly outdone by the fools behind the abomination that is El Prat station.

Sweden and Finland has different railway guages and less than a million people living within a 1000 km of the border crossing, no point in building it in the first place as there is absolutely no demand.


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## 437.001

gincan said:


> It is a national sport in Spain, here local govenments compete who has the worst located station, think Tarragona, Burgos, Cuenca, Segovia, Villena, El Prat and they are still not finished, the new Reus-Tarragona station will be built in the most stupid location possible because delusional local politicians think the station located on the wrong side of the airport somehow is going to boost the airport status, complete idiots, only slightly outdone by the fools behind the abomination that is El Prat station.


There won't be any new Reus-Tarragona station, as far as I know.
In its place, there's a gauge changer.
It would be too many stations in too few kilometers.

As for Burgos station, the new station is not in the city centre, but it is still in the city.
It's in the northeast (quarter of Villimar), in an area of new developments, and closer to the most densely populated areas of the city than the old one.
Removing the old station allowed for the suppression of a number of level crossings, and the creation of a new avenue using the former trackbed.

El Prat station (if you mean the high-speed one) is not open, it works just as a passing loop.
There were talks about putting it to use when they wanted to start the AVLO low-cost services, but that's as far as they went.
And the passenger building isn't built yet, and it might never be built if they don't open it.
There's the "permanently provisory passenger building" for commuter rail.

As for Cuenca, Segovia, and Villena stations, you may agree or not about their location, but all of them have a number of passengers, and they serve smaller towns anyway, so it was cheaper than using the older classic stations (less kms of HSL and links to build).



gincan said:


> Sweden and Finland has different railway guages and less than a million people living within a 1000 km of the border crossing, no point in building it in the first place as there is absolutely no demand.


No one said anything about building one, because there already is one, albeit scarcely used, it seems.


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## Coccodrillo

Burgos' location might be ok, I don't know the city.

However, Medina del Campo AV and Segovia AV could have been built where the LAV and classic line intersects, not much for these cities' passengers, but to allow trips like Cercedilla-Valladolid or Ávila-Galicia.

Cuenca and Requena-Utiel also missed the opportunity to give better connections on the classic line, however the latter could have brought very little passengers. However, in the case of Medina and Segovia they could have quite easily created more travel possibilities, by allowing connections.

Actually the railway on the Swedish side of Haparanda-Tornio has been partly rebuilt and electrified recently, and still has nearly no traffic.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Burgos' location might be ok, I don't know the city.


It's not optimal but it's okay, it's not like it is in the middle of a field of wheat. It is in the city.
The old one wasn't optimal either, but it was closer to the cathedral and the old town.
But its problem were the level crossings.
With the new station the level crossings are obviously gone, but it's true that it's farther away from the old town and the famous gothic cathedral.
But like I said, on the upside, the new station is closer to the most densely populated quarters.
Anyway, Burgos is a long city, it has grown longitudinally, like a long street if you want, and not like a round stain like Valladolid or Madrid, so this is a case where it is hard to please everybody.



Coccodrillo said:


> However, Medina del Campo AV and Segovia AV could have been built where the LAV and classic line intersects, not much for these cities' passengers, but to allow trips like Cercedilla-Valladolid or Ávila-Galicia.


Medina certainly, in hindsight I think it was a mistake.

However, Segovia would have been a bit trickier, as the intersection is on a viaduct of the HSL, if I remember well.
That said, I'm not sure many people would have done Cercedilla-Valladolid via Segovia, I think many would have still travelled via Madrid-Chamartin. Cercedilla-Segovia is rather bendy, and there aren't any big towns in between (and Cercedilla isn't a big town anyway, it's just the final station of the Madrid commuter trains, the big one in the area is Villalba, which is even closer to Madrid than Cercedilla).



Coccodrillo said:


> Cuenca and Requena-Utiel also missed the opportunity to give better connections on the classic line, however the latter could have brought very little passengers.


As for Cuenca, that was entirely the town council's choice.
Had they chosen otherwise, the chosen station would have been the classic one, and I don't think anyone would have complained, except the nimbys of course, who wanted the tracks out (it's always them...). That would have been more expensive to build, though.
That said, the current high-speed station has its passengers, the location isn't always bad when you factor in the travel times and the number of trains calling there, which have given a real boost to Cuenca's connectivity.
Cuenca used to be on the list of "potential places that could lose their railways", as the classic line is in very bad state and it hasn't many trains, so Cuenca used to be a "railway backwater", one of those cities that eternally complained of bad transports.
Now with the HSL it isn't the case anymore, that's certain (although a few years ago they lost their only direct train to Barcelona, the Alvia Madrid-Valencia-Barcelona, which was discontinued and converted into an AVE Madrid-Valencia or Madrid-Castellon I think, but it's not a big deal anyway, the change at Valencia is easy).
And its connectivity will further improve in a few weeks, with the opening of the HSL to Orihuela, adding two further destinations with a direct train to Cuenca (Elche, and Orihuela), and it will improve even further once the Atocha-Chamartin link opens, and when the extensions to Murcia, Lorca, and Almeria open within a few years.

Requena-Utiel is rather close to San Antonio station (the one station between Requena and Utiel on the classic line), but San Antonio is a small town.

Both Cuenca and Requena-Utiel stations could be better connected, though, I think, but it's the same case than Segovia - the classic line doesn't have many trains left and the area has a low population density, it wouldn't be much of a good link anyway.



Coccodrillo said:


> However, in the case of Medina and Segovia they could have quite easily created more travel possibilities, by allowing connections.


Yep.
In the case of Medina it is a bit less necessary because it's a smaller town, but Segovia could do well with a better connection.
Every now and then someone on the Spanish forum suggests building a branch between the Segovia main station and the Segovia high-speed station.
But like I said, if there are so little trains left on the classic line, and the population of the area doesn't grow (it's Castile, remember it's one of the areas with the lowest population density in Europe), there's little you can do by now.
Times can change, though, and perhaps the area will grow again enough as to need it, who knows.
But for now it seems unlikely, so... that'll have to wait.


----------



## Reivajar

The other interesting aspect of some of these new stations is their null integration into the surroundings.

There are for sure different cases, but the access is exclusively conceived from a car perspective, even in those cases where there are built up areas in the vicinity and a better urban integration would be very easy. It is a bit paradoxical and counter-intuitive, particularly considering the long tradition of railway stations as enhancers of urban development and social hubs. Mostly the opposite, it seems that there is an on-purpose aim of isolating them, such as in the case of airport terminals. You may assume that it is based on some sort of old-fashioned wicked understanding of segregation of traffic flows, but it is mostly non-sense when looking at the bendy and over-complicated design of their access roads.

Basically, the pattern is quite consistent: keep them isolated and segregated in a cul-de-sac, make sure that you can get there only by car, and that you need to leave by car too, set a cheap parking lot near-by in any possible shape, and clear the surroundings in such a way that there is no trace of urban setting, potential buildings, civic space or so. Quite a poor vision of these stations and their environment. It seems a neat product of suburbia.

Figueres-Vilafant









Segovia-Guiomar









Guadalajara-Yebes


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> The other interesting aspect of some of these new stations is their null integration into the surroundings.
> 
> There are for sure different cases, but the access is exclusively conceived from a car perspective, even in those cases where there are built up areas in the vicinity and a better urban integration would be very easy. It is a bit paradoxical and counter-intuitive, particularly considering the long tradition of railway stations as enhancers of urban development and social hubs. Mostly the opposite, it seems that there is an on-purpose aim of isolating them, such as in the case of airport terminals. You may assume that it is based on some sort of old-fashioned wicked understanding of segregation of traffic flows, but it is mostly non-sense when looking at the bendy and over-complicated design of their access roads.
> 
> Basically, the pattern is quite consistent: keep them isolated and segregated in a cul-de-sac, make sure that you can get there only by car, and that you need to leave by car too, set a cheap parking lot near-by in any possible shape, and clear the surroundings in such a way that there is no trace of urban setting, potential buildings, civic space or so. Quite a poor vision of these stations and their environment. It seems a neat product of suburbia.


That's not the case in Burgos.
Or in Girona.
Or in Cordoba.
Or in Granada.
Or in Zamora.
Or even in Calatayud.

That only happens when they go for a parkway station.
And obviously, a parkway station is mostly that, a station more or less outside the city in the middle of "nowhere", and with a big parking site, and probably also a bus stop or bus terminal.
It's in the name after all.

However, and going to these three particular cases you mention...



Reivajar said:


> Figueres-Vilafant
> View attachment 831904


This is not "in the middle of nowhere".
And I don't consider it a parkway station, at all.
This is a station in the city which has horrible foot access, that's all.
The day they manage to agree with the local authority to build a pavement with a bridge over that creek, problem solved.
I think this is something that must probably be a bad bureaucracy thing, I suppose.
Because not having that little bridge is a big nonsense.



Reivajar said:


> Segovia-Guiomar
> View attachment 831906


This one I already explained.
Segovia-Guiomar-AV is a textbook case of a parkway station.
That said, its road access could be much better...



Reivajar said:


> Guadalajara-Yebes
> View attachment 831910


Is Guadalajara-Yebes really a parkway station?
Yes and no.
This is a station next to a partly unfinished new town, so I'm not sure...
Both were designed in the times of the housing bubble, and the new town, called Valdeluz (councils of Yebes, and Horche), is not a ghost town, people live there, it has a golf course and all, but significant parts of it are still not built yet (that said, Guadalajara is one of the fastest-growing areas in Spain, so I'm not sure this will last for very long, at least once this pandemic is over).

This is one of the most frustrating high speed stations in the whole of Spain, though, because despite its catchment area having a rather sizeable population (well over half a million), it still has no bus links, and a not very good road access, and not many trains call there.
I've sometimes toyed on the Spanish forum with the idea of extending the commuter railway from Guadalajara classic station to the Yebes high-speed station, but that would be rather expensive and have rather steep gradients.
But I still think it could be worth it, as that would give an extra boost to the development of the Valdeluz new town, and also to make extra trains call there, and in a way, desaturate a bit Atocha station in Madrid, while giving the area around Guadalajara and Alcala de Henares a much better connectivity.

This is another case of, as we call it in Spain, "burrocracia" ("donkeyureaucracy"), as opposed to "burocracia" ("bureaucracy"), as the fact that Guadalajara is in Castile-La Mancha and Alcala de Henares is in Madrid make matters more complicated, as you have to make two regional governments agree (and two which more often than not are ran by opposite parties, Castile-La Mancha leaning more to the left, and Madrid to the right). Sigh...


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> That's not the case in Burgos.
> Or in Girona.
> Or in Cordoba.
> Or in Granada.
> Or in Zamora.
> Or even in Calatayud.


Well, except in the case of Burgos, the others were existing stations (or new buildings next to the historical station), so I was not refering to these cases, but to brand new stations on new alignments.

I am not questioning parkway stations. I am questioning the setting of some particular stations whose final design could be easily improved in many aspects. If we assume that they are parkway stations, I would say that they are a fail.



437.001 said:


> That only happens when they go for a parkway station.
> And obviously, a parkway station is mostly that, a station more or less outside the city in the middle of "nowhere", and with a big parking site, and probably also a bus stop or bus terminal.
> It's in the name after all.
> 
> However, and going to these three particular cases you mention...
> 
> 
> 
> This is not "in the middle of nowhere".
> This is a station in the city which has horrible foot access, that's all.
> The day they manage to agree with the local authority to build a pavement with a bridge over that creek, problem solved.
> I think this is something that must probably be a bad bureaucracy thing, I suppose.
> Because not having that little bridge is a big nonsense.


This is not a parkway station. Or if it is so, it is a non-sense as you say. It is dumb to build a parkway in such location with these access roads: on the edge of a compact urban center without any direct access to the main highways in the city (ok, just N-260, without direct connection to AP-7, N-2 or roads leading to the coast). If it is a parkway station, it is in a bad location. If it is not a parkway station, it is very poorly integrated into the urban fabric. I would rather say that it is not a parkway station. Just simply, its integration is very bad.



437.001 said:


> This one I already explained.
> Segovia-Guiomar-AV is a textbook case of a parkway station.
> That said, its road access could be much better...


I agree somehow with you. Segovia is likely the most controversial case of the three that I mentioned. I would have considered a location closer to the commercial area and the conventional line in the West.



437.001 said:


> Is Guadalajara-Yebes really a parkway station?
> Yes and no.
> This is a station next to a partly unfinished new town, so I'm not sure...
> This is one of the most frustrating stations, because despite its catchment area having a rather sizeable population (well over half a million), it still has no bus links, and a not very good road access, and not many trains call there.
> I've sometimes toyed on the Spanish forum with the idea of extending the commuter railway from Guadalajara classic station to the Yebes high-speed station, but that would be rather expensive and have rather steep gradients.
> But I still think it could be worth it, as that would give an extra boost to the development of the Valdeluz new town, and also to make extra trains call there, and in a way, desaturate a bit Atocha station in Madrid, while giving the area around Guadalajara and Alcala de Henares a much better connectivity.
> 
> This is another case of, as we call it in Spain, "burrocracia" ("donkeyureaucracy"), as the fact that Guadalajara is in Castile-La Mancha and Alcala de Henares is in Madrid make matters more complicated, as you have to make two regional governments agree (and two which more often than not are ran by opposite parties, Castile-La Mancha leaning more to the left, and Madrid to the right). Sigh...


Guadalajara-Yebes is a similar case to Figueres-Vilafant. If it is a parkway station, why has it been located so far off from the main highway in the area (N-320) across the new built up area? If it is not a parkway station, why hasn't it been more centrally located into the new urban development? In fact, weren't both factors (car accesibility and local/walkable accesibility) compatible? What is the point of living in Valdeluz if you need to take a car for getting to the station in your neighborhood?

In fact, Valdeluz was advertised like a satellite city of Madrid with a fast connection to Madrid via high speed rail (sic). However, you need a car for a 5-10 min trip to the station... In fact, I think that it is quite obvious that it was just "cheap" marketing. It was never conceived as a real satellite city, and the station was not conceived to develop a new city around it. It was just the regular station that needed to be located close to Guadalajara. But it was a good opportunity for developers to increase the price of the near-by land to develop a new neighborhood with the excuse of the station during the real estate bubble. Any real aim to integrate mobility, urban development and so? No, never. And as a consequence you have that odd result: a failed station, and a failed neighborhood (city-like thing). Now, it seems that as housing there is so affordable, some people has found it as a good alternative. But nobody really care about the station. That is not surprising with such a unreallistic and broken planning.

Now, coming back to the parkway station concept, what is the point of building parkway stations in areas where car accesibility could be easily combined with other transportation options (if not just directly developing integrated neighborhood and activities around the station)?

We are not talking here about stations such as Villanueva de Córdoba, Antequera-Santa Ana, or so. Just look at the way that the Dutchs develop activities around railway stations. They try to maximize the effects of integrating transportation, leisure, commercial activities, and other stuff within a walkable distance from stations. Of course it is no suitable to every single high speed station as sometimes the aimed goal is different, but in a few cases they are missing opportunities of maximizing that huge investment. Make them accesible by car, ok, but don't ban other alternatives so foolishly.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> Well, except in the case of Burgos, the others were existing stations (or new buildings next to the historical station), so I was not refering to these cases, but to brand new stations on new alignments.


Girona not a new station? When the old platforms are on a viaduct, the new ones underground, and there is no underground corridor linking the main concourse to the underground platforms, so if it's windy, rainy or snowy, eff-off?
Not sure.

Cordoba is a new station by the way, the old one was further to the east than the current one.

But if you don't like the other examples I gave you, you could also go for Seville-Santa Justa (purposefully built for the HSR), or Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla (same, albeit this one's provisory), or Zaragoza-Delicias (which I detest, although this is more of a full rebuilding of a by then long-abandoned station, a bit like Berlin-Hbf was a full rebuilding of the abandoned Berlin-Lehrter Bahnhof). Or even Madrid-Atocha, which has rather little to do with the pre-HSR station.



Reivajar said:


> I am not questioning parkway stations. I am questioning the setting of some particular stations whose final design could be easily improved in many aspects. If we assume that they are parkway stations, I would say that they are a fail.


It depends.
I think that the failure or success of a station is marked first and most by its number of passengers.
So perhaps only Guadalajara-Yebes fits in this category.
And still, I guess it isn't anything that's unsolvable.



Reivajar said:


> This is not a parkway station. Or if it is so, it is a non-sense as you say. It is dumb to build a parkway in such location with these access roads: on the edge of a compact urban center without any direct access to the main highways in the city (ok, just N-260, without direct connection to AP-7, N-2 or roads leading to the coast). If it is a parkway station, it is in a bad location. If it is not a parkway station, it is very poorly integrated into the urban fabric. I would rather say that it is not a parkway station. Just simply, its integration is very bad.


Not so bad, really.
The main problem at Figueres-Vilafant is that pavement for foot access (and also a bike lane if possible), with that little bridge over the creek that's missing. Just that.
Otherwise it would be just another urban station.
From what I read on the Spanish forum, it looks like the station and the houses are in two different towns (one in Figueres and the other in Vilafant, can't really tell you which is which), so I suspect that you can guess what happened... but it really is cause for a palmface.
The station's well used, on the other hand, so in this respect it isn't a failure, at all.
It's such a small thing that is missing that it really is hard to believe that they haven't thought about that.



Reivajar said:


> I agree somehow with you. Segovia is likely the most controversial case of the three that I mentioned. I would have considered a location closer to the commercial area and the conventional line in the West.


Like I said, the classic line doesn't have many trains, or a lot of people within its catchment area.
I doubt San Rafael, El Espinar, or Los Angeles de San Rafael could boost the station much, even less with the current number of trains on the classic line.
But it has an allegedly good bus shuttle to Segovia, so...
That said, its road access is just not good.
Nothing unsolvable, though.
But I think you'll agree with me that this is definitely not one of the "least used stations".



Reivajar said:


> Guadalajara-Yebes is a similar case to Figueres-Vilafant. If it is a parkway station, why has it been located so far off from the main highway in the area (N-320) across the new built up area? If it is not a parkway station, why hasn't it been more centrally located into the new urban development? In fact, weren't both factors (car accesibility and local/walkable accesibility) compatible? What is the point of living in Valdeluz if you need to take a car for getting to the station in your neighborhood?
> 
> In fact, Valdeluz was advertised like a satellite city of Madrid with a fast connection to Madrid via high speed rail (sic). However, you need a car for a 5-10 min trip to the station... In fact, I think that it is quite obvious that it was just "cheap" marketing. It was never conceived as a real satellite city, and the station was not conceived to develop a new city around it. It was just the regular station that needed to be located close to Guadalajara. But it was a good opportunity for developers to increase the price of the near-by land to develop a new neighborhood with the excuse of the station during the real estate bubble. Any real aim to integrate mobility, urban development and so? No, never. And as a consequence you have that odd result: a failed station, and a failed neighborhood (city-like thing). Now, it seems that as housing there is so affordable, some people has found it as a good alternative. But nobody really care about the station. That is not surprising with such a unreallistic and broken planning.


I'd need a long post to answer this paragraphs alone!

So, in short, I think that the failure of this station has a lot more to do with the lack of good bus (or even commuter rail) links and the lack of a rational and frequent stopping pattern of high-speed trains, than with anything else.
Valdeluz could not exist, the station could be in the middle of the woods, and the failure would be the same.

You just compare Camp de Tarragona with Guadalajara-Yebes, two relatively similar stations (albeit Camp de Tarragona is a parkway station fair and square - and with its failures as well, too) and it's like night and day.
Camp de Tarragona is easily one of the most used HSR stations in Spain, the same can't be said of Guadalajara-Yebes, despite the population in their respective catchment areas being relatively similar... but what changes is precisely their bus links (and I say this even though the Camp de Tarragona bus links are still rather far from ideal), and their very different stopping patterns (Yebes only a few trains *per day*, Camp de Tarragona only a few trains *per hour*).

That said, if you consider Valdeluz and its interaction with Guadalajara-Yebes station, you have to always consider the current half-finished state of Valdeluz.
Right now it looks like the station is far from the houses, merely because the first Valdeluz developments happened to be not very close to the station.
But as time passes, I think this will be less of a problem (I believe, I may be wrong).
I don't think the station is really that "far away".



Reivajar said:


> Now, coming back to the parkway station concept, what is the point of building parkway stations in areas where car accesibility could be easily combined with other transportation options (if not just directly developing integrated neighborhood and activities around the station)?
> 
> We are not talking here about stations such as Villanueva de Córdoba, Antequera-Santa Ana, or so. Just look at the way that the Dutch develop activities around railway stations. They try to maximize the effects of integrating transportation, leisure, commercial activities, and other stuff within a walkable distance from stations. Of course it is no suitable to every single high speed station as sometimes the aimed goal is different, but in a few cases they are missing opportunities of maximizing that huge investment. Make them accesible by car, ok, but don't ban other alternatives so foolishly.


I really wouldn't compare Spain to the Netherlands.
That's like apples and oranges.
The Netherlands has one of the highest population densities in Europe, while the same can't be said of most parts of Spain, quite the opposite. And I'm including even Madrid and both Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts.

I think that this could be achieved only in certain stations... and there's Vialia, I suppose you've heard of it.
So I guess that in some stations they do take advantage of this, just that they can't do it everywhere, I suppose.


----------



## 592

437.001 said:


> It's not optimal but it's okay, it's not like it is in the middle of a field of wheat. It is in the city.
> The old one wasn't optimal either, but it was closer to the cathedral and the old town.
> But its problem were the level crossings.
> With the new station the level crossings are obviously gone, but it's true that it's farther away from the old town and the famous gothic cathedral.
> But like I said, on the upside, the new station is closer to the most densely populated quarters.
> Anyway, Burgos is a long city, it has grown longitudinally, like a long street if you want, and not like a round stain like Valladolid or Madrid, so this is a case where it is hard to please everybody.
> 
> 
> 
> Medina certainly, in hindsight I think it was a mistake.
> 
> However, Segovia would have been a bit trickier, as the intersection is on a viaduct of the HSL, if I remember well.
> That said, I'm not sure many people would have done Cercedilla-Valladolid via Segovia, I think many would have still travelled via Madrid-Chamartin. Cercedilla-Segovia is rather bendy, and there aren't any big towns in between (and Cercedilla isn't a big town anyway, it's just the final station of the Madrid commuter trains, the big one in the area is Villalba, which is even closer to Madrid than Cercedilla).
> 
> 
> 
> As for Cuenca, that was entirely the town council's choice.
> Had they chosen otherwise, the chosen station would have been the classic one, and I don't think anyone would have complained, except the nimbys of course, who wanted the tracks out (it's always them...). That would have been more expensive to build, though.
> That said, the current high-speed station has its passengers, the location isn't always bad when you factor in the travel times and the number of trains calling there, which have given a real boost to Cuenca's connectivity.
> Cuenca used to be on the list of "potential places that could lose their railways", as the classic line is in very bad state and it hasn't many trains, so Cuenca used to be a "railway backwater", one of those cities that eternally complained of bad transports.
> Now with the HSL it isn't the case anymore, that's certain (although a few years ago they lost their only direct train to Barcelona, the Alvia Madrid-Valencia-Barcelona, which was discontinued and converted into an AVE Madrid-Valencia or Madrid-Castellon I think, but it's not a big deal anyway, the change at Valencia is easy).
> And its connectivity will further improve in a few weeks, with the opening of the HSL to Orihuela, adding two further destinations with a direct train to Cuenca (Elche, and Orihuela), and it will improve even further once the Atocha-Chamartin link opens, and when the extensions to Murcia, Lorca, and Almeria open within a few years.
> 
> Requena-Utiel is rather close to San Antonio station (the one station between Requena and Utiel on the classic line), but San Antonio is a small town.
> 
> Both Cuenca and Requena-Utiel stations could be better connected, though, I think, but it's the same case than Segovia - the classic line doesn't have many trains left and the area has a low population density, it wouldn't be much of a good link anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.
> In the case of Medina it is a bit less necessary because it's a smaller town, but Segovia could do well with a better connection.
> Every now and then someone on the Spanish forum suggests building a branch between the Segovia main station and the Segovia high-speed station.
> But like I said, if there are so little trains left on the classic line, and the population of the area doesn't grow (it's Castile, remember it's one of the areas with the lowest population density in Europe), there's little you can do by now.
> Times can change, though, and perhaps the area will grow again enough as to need it, who knows.
> But for now it seems unlikely, so... that'll have to wait.


Honestly, San Antonio should be moved to Requena-Utiel, or at leas there should be Combinado Cercanías for the ticket to Utiel or Requena. One friend of mine once did that connection (for one of the small halts next to Buñol), and he was genuinely surprised he had to pay for the Cercanías, and the foot access was so bad from one station to the other. It is not a common connection, but some people do it (when the timetables allow, idk if that's possible now).


----------



## 437.001

592 said:


> Honestly, San Antonio should be moved to Requena-Utiel, or at leas there should be Combinado Cercanías for the ticket to Utiel or Requena. One friend of mine once did that connection (for one of the small halts next to Buñol), and he was genuinely surprised he had to pay for the Cercanías, and the foot access was so bad from one station to the other. It is not a common connection, but some people do it (when the timetables allow, idk if that's possible now).


I even wonder if it isn't better via Valencia, if he was going somewhere near Buñol...


----------



## 592

437.001 said:


> I even wonder if it isn't better via Valencia, if he was going somewhere near Buñol...


Perhaps, but there's still a cross-station transfer (one that I've done myself a thousand times lol).


----------



## alserrod

Calatayud high-speed station remains in the same position than old (and current) one opened 150ish years ago

There were three options for high speed railway through Jalon valley and cheapest and easiest one was parallel to classic line (thus crossing through station). 
Station was refurbished but be sure may it wouldn't be cheapest one, station would be away.

In the case of Zaragoza, not bad... but it was possible to remain in the former location as local forumers have chatted. I remember when it opened, it took me double to go from home to station than with the classic station, thus no time saved even if using high speed.

Nevertheless, IMHO, Requena is the worst one. Couldn't it be besides classic line and link with commuter?


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Girona not a new station? When the old platforms are on a viaduct, the new ones underground, and there is no underground corridor linking the main concourse to the underground platforms, so if it's windy, rainy or snowy, eff-off?
> Not sure.


From a mobility, accesibility and urban point of view, no. Girona is not a new station. Anyhow, I was not talking about Girona. 



437.001 said:


> Cordoba is a new station by the way, the old one was further to the east than the current one.


I was not talking about Cordoba either. It is a centrally located station in an urban setting. But from an urban and mobility point of view, the new building does not make a difference. It is 400 m away from the old station, across a park and an avenue.



437.001 said:


> But if you don't like the other examples I gave you, you could also go for Seville-Santa Justa (purposefully built for the HSR), or Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla (same, albeit this one's provisory), or Zaragoza-Delicias (which I detest, although this is more of a full rebuilding of a by then long-abandoned station, a bit like Berlin-Hbf was a full rebuilding of the abandoned Berlin-Lehrter Bahnhof). Or even Madrid-Atocha, which has rather little to do with the pre-HSR station.


I was not mentioning any of these either. I was just commenting the location of some stations whose accesibility and integration could have been easily improved withou any major change into the railway line design. There are many stations in Spain which are well located as well. But some of the new ones aren't so.



437.001 said:


> It depends.
> I think that the failure or success of a station is marked first and most by its number of passengers.
> So perhaps only Guadalajara-Yebes fits in this category.
> And still, I guess it isn't anything that's unsolvable.
> 
> Not so bad, really.
> The main problem at Figueres-Vilafant is that pavement for foot access (and also a bike lane if possible), with that little bridge over the creek that's missing. Just that.
> Otherwise it would be just another urban station.
> From what I read on the Spanish forum, it looks like the station and the houses are in two different towns (one in Figueres and the other in Vilafant, can't really tell you which is which), so I suspect that you can guess what happened... but it really is cause for a palmface.
> The station's well used, on the other hand, so in this respect it isn't a failure, at all.
> It's such a small thing that is missing that it really is hard to believe that they haven't thought about that.


I think they are different cases. Figueres is clearly solvable with a proper urban integration. If it is an issue about municipal limits, I am not surprised. The lack of coordination between municipalties within the same urban area, even in clear cases of conurbation, is quite frequent in Spain.

Guadalajara is not as easily solvable. Even if the whole area of Valdeluz is built up, the stations will have always a peripheral location within the new city. As I was saying, they advertised it as a satellite city served by high speed train, but none of these elements (station and city) were designed in an intregrated way.



437.001 said:


> Like I said, the classic line doesn't have many trains, or a lot of people within its catchment area.
> I doubt San Rafael, El Espinar, or Los Angeles de San Rafael could boost the station much, even less with the current number of trains on the classic line.
> But it has an allegedly good bus shuttle to Segovia, so...
> That said, its road access is just not good.
> Nothing unsolvable, though.
> But I think you'll agree with me that this is definitely not one of the "least used stations".


I agree. Better integration with the conventional railway would have been nice. But as you say, the level of utilization of the classical line is quite low. But a better integration could have been planned better, but it is not the worst case, of course.




437.001 said:


> I'd need a long post to answer this paragraphs alone!
> 
> So, in short, I think that the failure of this station has a lot more to do with the lack of good bus (or even commuter rail) links and the lack of a rational and frequent stopping pattern of high-speed trains, than with anything else.
> Valdeluz could not exist, the station could be in the middle of the woods, and the failure would be the same.
> 
> You just compare Camp de Tarragona with Guadalajara-Yebes, two relatively similar stations (albeit Camp de Tarragona is a parkway station fair and square - and with its failures as well, too) and it's like night and day.
> Camp de Tarragona is easily one of the most used HSR stations in Spain, the same can't be said of Guadalajara-Yebes, despite the population in their respective catchment areas being relatively similar... but what changes is precisely their bus links (and I say this even though the Camp de Tarragona bus links are still rather far from ideal), and their very different stopping patterns (Yebes only a few trains *per day*, Camp de Tarragona only a few trains *per hour*).
> 
> That said, if you consider Valdeluz and its interaction with Guadalajara-Yebes station, you have to always consider the current half-finished state of Valdeluz.
> Right now it looks like the station is far from the houses, merely because the first Valdeluz developments happened to be not very close to the station.
> But as time passes, I think this will be less of a problem (I believe, I may be wrong).
> I don't think the station is really that "far away".


It is quite hard to think to link by rail Guadalajara with Valdeluz because of the huge difference of height. The Guadalajara conventional line station is at 643 m, Guadalajara-Yebes is at 920 m. (277 m of difference in a distance of less than 8 km). The needed detour would penalize a lot any connection.



437.001 said:


> I really wouldn't compare Spain to the Netherlands.
> That's like apples and oranges.
> The Netherlands has one of the highest population densities in Europe, while the same can't be said of most parts of Spain, quite the opposite. And I'm including even Madrid and both Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts.
> 
> I think that this could be achieved only in certain stations... and there's Vialia, I suppose you've heard of it.
> So I guess that in some stations they do take advantage of this, just that they can't do it everywhere, I suppose.


That way of considering density of population is quite biased. As an average, Spanish urban settings are far more compact that in any other big European country (I don't consider micro-states here). The Netherlands is a very dense country, and Dutch urban settings are as well quite compact for European standards. But even so, the density of built-up areas of Spain is 737 hab/km^2, and in the case of the Netherlands is 546 hab/km^2. So, Spanish cities and towns are in average denser.


----------



## Suburbanist

Since they love real estate development in Spain, why didn't ADIF just got into the game of building office towers and residential towers adjacent to these stations.

And, yes, built-up areas in Spanish cities is very dense, there are barely any soft-green areas (no meadows or local marshland to speak of), no urban forests whatsoever, and even smaller cities have lots of 4-6 story flat buildings. But the countryside is very empty. Nothing much between Teruel and Zaragoza for instance.

Only holiday-apartment dominated towns in the Mediterranean follow a different pattern.


----------



## alserrod

Madrid-Zaragoza-Camp de Tarragona-Barcelona new service by Ouigo-SNCF on sales since now

9 euro per journey, starting May 2021


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> Since they love real estate development in Spain, why didn't ADIF just got into the game of building office towers and residential towers adjacent to these stations.
> 
> And, yes, built-up areas in Spanish cities is very dense, there are barely any soft-green areas (no meadows or local marshland to speak of), no urban forests whatsoever, and even smaller cities have lots of 4-6 story flat buildings. But the countryside is very empty. Nothing much between Teruel and Zaragoza for instance.
> 
> Only holiday-apartment dominated towns in the Mediterranean follow a different pattern.



And people doesn't use railway to go to Mediterranean on season. They use to get car mainly (more baggage, not long distances, etc...). You can have some peak days in August, but nothing relevant.

BTW, in those terms, Teruel isn't population indeed. It has 35.000 people only, the smallest capital city in Spain. Another point of view is ... it is in the middle between Valencia and Zaragoza, 3rd and 5th city in the country.
and also BTW, since next Sunday early Teruel-Zaragoza and late Zaragoza-Teruel stopping in alllll stations will take 15 minutes less due to new trains (it will depart 15 minutes later from Teruel and will arrive 15 minutes soon, schedules from Zaragoza will remain)


----------



## Suburbanist

alserrod said:


> And people doesn't use railway to go to Mediterranean on season. They use to get car mainly (more baggage, not long distances, etc...). You can have some peak days in August, but nothing relevant.
> 
> BTW, in those terms, Teruel isn't population indeed. It has 35.000 people only, the smallest capital city in Spain. Another point of view is ... it is in the middle between Valencia and Zaragoza, 3rd and 5th city in the country.
> and also BTW, since next Sunday early Teruel-Zaragoza and late Zaragoza-Teruel stopping in alllll stations will take 15 minutes less due to new trains (it will depart 15 minutes later from Teruel and will arrive 15 minutes soon, schedules from Zaragoza will remain)


I think Teruel, Cuenca, Albacete and Ciudad Real, all relatively small places, end up being important geographically because they are the only noticeable towns in Eastern and Southern highlands of Spain.


----------



## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> I think Teruel, Cuenca, Albacete and Ciudad Real, all relatively small places, end up being important geographically because they are the only noticeable towns in Eastern and Southern highlands of Spain.


Except Zaragoza and Valladolid, almost ALL 300-400 around Madrid are important in those terms. There are some middle cities like Burgos or Albacete but most of those province capitals barely reach 100.000 people
Teruel is the smallest, Soria the second, Huesca third and let's keep on. Cuenca, Avila, Zamora...
In addition, it is not the same situation in Ciudad Real, which has some big towns in 60 km around than in Cuenca or Teruel where there's absolutely nothing

It is matter of discussion... look at any motorway map and you will see differences in these areas.
Ciudad Real has HSL since 1992 and as it is said... it was posted in a map (nobody knew about them and... they began to be 50 minutes away from Madrid!!!)


----------



## Wouter999

Reivajar said:


> That way of considering density of population is quite biased. As an average, Spanish urban settings are far more compact that in any other big European country (I don't consider micro-states here). The Netherlands is a very dense country, and Dutch urban settings are as well quite compact for European standards. But even so, the density of built-up areas of Spain is 737 hab/km^2, and in the case of the Netherlands is 546 hab/km^2. So, Spanish cities and towns are in average denser.


Of course high population density makes it more easy to integrate and develop railway station surroundings. But by creating easy access by other modes than just car saves a lot of space, that otherwise has to be reserved for cars. especially when the distance is short enough to walk (or bike). As Suburbanist says with the dense built-up areas in Spain, a smart-located station, easy accessible by food, would even create space to develop parks/extra housing/... etc.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> The first phase of the works to put Murcia station underground could open next March.
> This is a longer-term project, as not only Murcia station, but the railway line in Murcia city will be put underground (for a population of 442,000 people, having just four platforms made little sense, and all along Murcia there are/were lots of level crossings, the upgrade was long overdue).


I understand getting rid of the level crossings is a good thing, but how many train services is Murcia likely to receive every hour in the next 10 years? Two through platforms for local/cercanias services towards Alicant/Cartagena/Lorca/Hellin would seem fine, and then two for AVE/Alvia as well. Or am I missing something?


----------



## arctic_carlos

davide84 said:


> Just for fun, I started to make a yet-another-map of the Spanish HS network... I took the data from the last pages of this thread, but some parts are missing (e.g. the link to Portugal).
> 
> in service | under construction | suspended | planned
> 
> View attachment 1018114


Thanks for the map, but:


Burgos - Vitoria is still planned.
Plasencia - Badajoz is under construction, while Toledo - Plasencia is planned.
La Encina - Valencia is under construction.
León - Pola de Lena is under construction.
Castejón de Ebro - Tafalla - (Pamplona) is under construction.
If Sevilla - Cádiz and Coruña - Vigo are considered HSL (both are Iberian gauge, mixed traffic lines), then Castellón - Camp de Tarragona should also count as HSR.


----------



## davide84

Thanks! You can find the updated version here: https://www.cester.net/spain/

It's a toy project at the moment, but if someone thinks it could be interesting to expand it please let me know


----------



## 437.001

davide84 said:


> Thanks! You can find the updated version here: https://www.cester.net/spain/
> 
> It's a toy project at the moment, but if someone thinks it could be interesting to expand it please let me know


There's still one mistake.
The Madrid-Badajoz-Portugal HSL goes via Merida, not in a straight line from Caceres to Badajoz.
So the correct version should be Caceres-Merida-Badajoz.

The rest is now correct.


----------



## 437.001

33Hz said:


> The information says (c) 2021 throughout.
> 
> You can see the trackbed come to an obvious stop.


You do mean between Caceres and Merida, don't you?

At least in Spain, very rural areas don't get updated yearly, don't know about the UK.

That said, Plasencia-Caceres is more advanced than Caceres-Merida.



Stuu said:


> I understand getting rid of the level crossings is a good thing, but how many train services is Murcia likely to receive every hour in the next 10 years? Two through platforms for local/cercanias services towards Alicant/Cartagena/Lorca/Hellin would seem fine, and then two for AVE/Alvia as well. Or am I missing something?


This is a good question.
Most of the SSC forumers that I know agree that Murcia is "rail-underdeveloped", has a lot of potential, but lives far below that.
The big game changer will probably be the opening of Pulpi-Almeria, when a rail connection between the Murcia Region and Andalusia will be reinstated (that's missing since the 1985 closure of the Almendricos-Guadix line - to Spain, 1985 was Britain's 1967).

So we guess that once routes along the axis Valencia-Alicante-Murcia-Almeria-Granada-Malaga (or Algeciras, or Seville) are possible (or possible again), passengers and number of trains will only increase.

If we add to that the fact that Murcia commuter trains are also underdeveloped, and that the Murcia tramway doesn't link the railway station, then 2 and 2...


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## 437.001

*News

Valladolid-Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL*

Opening delayed to 2022. 

According to this article (in Spanish):
*El Gobierno avanza que el AVE no llegará a Burgos hasta 2022 | Noticias Diario de Burgos*



==============================================

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

A youtube (in Spanish) about the works of the Padornelo tunnel, one of the longest on the line.
It is rather close to Pedralba, on the Pedralba-Ourense section.








==============================================

*Madrid-Toledo-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*

A youtube about the viaducts over the Almonte and over the Tagus rivers.
Without a doubt, two of the most spectacular viaducts in Spain.
Both are between Plasencia and Caceres.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Most of the SSC forumers that I know agree that Murcia is "rail-underdeveloped", has a lot of potential, but lives far below that.
> The big game changer will probably be the opening of Pulpi-Almeria, when a rail connection between the Murcia Region and Andalusia will be reinstated (that's missing since the 1985 closure of the Almendricos-Guadix line - to Spain, 1985 was Britain's 1967).
> 
> So we guess that once routes along the axis Valencia-Alicante-Murcia-Almeria-Granada-Malaga (or Algeciras, or Seville) are possible (or possible again), passengers and number of trains will only increase.
> 
> If we add to that the fact that Murcia commuter trains are also underdeveloped, and that the Murcia tramway doesn't link the railway station, then 2 and 2...


That's all true, but even when the line to Almeria is finished how many trains will there be - maybe hourly to Madrid at best, and maybe 2 an hour to Alicant or Valencia?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> That's all true, but even when the line to Almeria is finished how many trains will there be - maybe hourly to Madrid at best, and maybe 2 an hour to Alicant or Valencia?


In Murcia, do you mean? Trains terminating there from both Madrid and Barcelona.
Also trains from Alicante and Valencia.

Also others to/from Cartagena, Lorca, Aguilas, Almeria, probably also Granada.
And perhaps also Malaga, Algeciras, or even Seville.

Nowadays it's a bit hard to imagine, because it's been so long without a connection between Murcia and Andalusia, and in the meantime, the network has changed.

But without a doubt, there will be more trains.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> In Murcia, do you mean? Trains terminating there from both Madrid and Barcelona.
> Also trains from Alicante and Valencia.
> 
> Also others to/from Cartagena, Lorca, Aguilas, Almeria, probably also Granada.
> And perhaps also Malaga, Algeciras, or even Seville.
> 
> Nowadays it's a bit hard to imagine, because it's been so long without a connection between Murcia and Andalusia, and in the meantime, the network has changed.
> 
> But without a doubt, there will be more trains.


Sure, there will be more trains but why would anything terminate in Murcia? I would have thought Alicant/Valencia to Almeria/Granada would make more more sense. Trains from Madrid/Barcelona would run to Almeria or perhaps Cartagena? Also local services would make more sense running through eg Lorca to Cartagena


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## davide84

What is the situation of the HS network in terms of signalling? I found activation news for ETCS on Valladolid-Leon and Zamora-Pedralba... is the rest all ASFA?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Sure, there will be more trains but why would anything terminate in Murcia?


A population of well over 400,000 in the city alone?
There have always been trains terminating there.

And if there aren't many more, in part it's down to the very limited possibilities of the old station.
Which was really too small for a city of that size.
That, and getting rid of the level crossings, is the reason why it's being upgraded, redeveloped, and put underground.



Stuu said:


> I would have thought Alicant/Valencia to Almeria/Granada would make more more sense.


It does. There used to be Valencia-Alicante-Murcia-Granada services.
But those coexisted with the Murcia terminators.

And well, we'll see once it opens anyway...
...there's still some time left before the full line to Almeria is opened.



Stuu said:


> Trains from Madrid/Barcelona would run to Almeria or perhaps Cartagena?


Those already exist (at least, pre-coronavirus and pre-HSL works).
And they do coexist with the Murcia terminators as well.
Lorca (to/from Barcelona) and Aguilas (to/from Madrid, occasionally also Barcelona) also see trains terminating there.



Stuu said:


> Also local services would make more sense running through eg Lorca to Cartagena


As a matter of fact, a Lorca to Cartagena service doesn't make a lot of sense, so no. Too long.

Although there could have been direct Lorca to Cartagena services through the unfinished Totana to Cartagena railway line, but... it was left unfinished, so that never happened.


----------



## JumpUp

Hello!
When will the new Talgo AVRIL enter public service with passengers? Will it be happening in 2021?

Thanks


----------



## gincan

Stuu said:


> Sure, there will be more trains but why would anything terminate in Murcia? I would have thought Alicant/Valencia to Almeria/Granada would make more more sense. Trains from Madrid/Barcelona would run to Almeria or perhaps Cartagena? Also local services would make more sense running through eg Lorca to Cartagena


Yes but you could say the same about many cities that have many terminating services, Leeds for example. The number of sevices to and from Murcia could increase a lot once the HSR network in the north of Spain is finished. Bilbao/San Sebastian to Murcia over Zaragoza will be less than 6 hours once the remaining part between Zaragoza and Bilbao is done, you could also have trains going all the way from Galicia and Asturias as both will be about 6 hours away.

Another thing to consider is that private operators will want to run services through Murcia to Cartagena requiring the trains to reverse, this will require more platforms in Murcia, in fact I don't think there will be enough in the future. In a future with green voters in the UK, Holland, Germany and even Scandinavia willing to go on a train down to Alicante, Elche, Murcia and Cartagena instead of flying, quite a lot of more trainstation capacity will be needed, I don't think any of these stations have anywhere near enough the capacity to handle holliday train travelers in the hundreds of thousands, potentially even millions.


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## davide84

Don't exagerate  to carry millions of travellers you would need thousands of trains, a traffic not seen even between economic capitals connected by HS lines...


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## Stuu

gincan said:


> In a future with green voters in the UK, Holland, Germany and even Scandinavia willing to go on a train down to Alicante, Elche, Murcia and Cartagena instead of flying, quite a lot of more trainstation capacity will be needed, I don't think any of these stations have anywhere near enough the capacity to handle holliday train travelers in the hundreds of thousands, potentially even millions.


That's all very good in theory but once you start to work out how much infrastructure you would need it's clear that it's not possible to replace anything like the volume of air travel with rail. There are at least 15 airports in the UK with significant numbers of flights per day to Spain, and that is repeated across northern Europe. Alicant airport received 58000 passengers on it's busiest day, switch even half of those to trains and you need capacity for an extra 38 trains as a minimum. It would mean building multiple new lines through France, for travellers who don't benefit the country. I don't see that as practical or politically possible. The options are greener air travel, or less travel


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## davide84

Also, let me add some context about passenger numbers. In the past years the main station of Zurich had around 450.000 passengers/day; this includes regional trains and S-Bahn, in the middle of Europe and the most used/dense train network in the world. Milano Centrale, in the economic heartbeat of Italy, had around 300.000 p/d. According to a quick search on Google, Madrid Puerta de Atocha should be around 40.000 p/d and Sevilla Santa Justa around 25.000 p/d.


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## alserrod

Just a hint... Puerta de Atocha is only for long distance trains (AVE and Alvia)

Atocha cercanías is for regionals and mainly commuters









Estación Madrid - Puerta de Atocha to Estación Madrid - Puerta de Atocha







www.google.es





and besides you have an underground station too.

just regarding wikipedia









Estación de Atocha - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre







es.wikipedia.org





2017, per year
17M passengers for long distance (AVE and Alvia, Alvia means gauge-change)
2,6M passengers for regionals (there are some lines with 3-10 trains/day, distance over 50 km)
87M passengers for commuter (it includes all the region plus some cities around it

it makes 30K/day more or less, in 2019 it was a bit higher

All Puerta de Atocha tracks are standard ones
(these were in Iberian gauge for former Madrid-Valencia/Alicante trains and they will be underground for a tunnel through Chamartin
Puerta de atocha 
)

and all Atocha tracks are in Iberian gauge (they are commuter trains)


----------



## 437.001

*Monforte del Cid-Murcia HSL

Section Monforte del Cid-Orihuela*

An official Adif video (in Spanish):








First AVE Orihuela-Madrid leaving Orihuela station bound for Madrid:








First AVE Madrid-Orihuela entering the Orihuela tunnel leading into Orihuela station (and right before, a class 592 DMU on an Alicante-Murcia Cercanías service):


----------



## 437.001

*News

AVE class S-106 (Talgo)*

Half-new rolling stock, coming from the retrofit of old Talgo coaches, and new locomotives.
They are about to start test runs. At last!

According to this Tweet (by the way, the picture's taken at Segovia-Guiomar station):

*Talgo en Twitter: "Empiezan las pruebas en vía de nuestro tren de muy alta velocidad, Talgo Avril. En los ensayos se comprobará el comportamiento de todos los elementos del tren, en condiciones de operación progresivamente más complejas y hasta llegar a más de 360 km/h. https://t.co/fSSt1Zge52 https://t.co/9oYCEAmQ1o" / Twitter*

In this other Tweet, you can see other class 106 trains being assembled in the Talgo factory at Rivabellosa (Alava, Basque Country):

*Grupo SPRI en Twitter: "La planta alavesa de Talgo asegura carga de trabajo hasta 2023. #grupospri @TalgoGroup https://t.co/hBn2vhZW6H" / Twitter *

If all goes well, then, single-gauge trains would start running on commmercial services by December 2021, while dual-gauge trains would start by September 2022.


----------



## AlecC281

437.001 said:


> *News
> 
> AVE class S-106 (Talgo)*
> 
> Half-new rolling stock, coming from the retrofit of old Talgo coaches, and new locomotives.
> They are about to start test runs. At last!


No, these are not the "half-new" rolling stock. These are new wider Talgo coaches.

The 107 series are the ones that will use refurbished Trenhotel coaches. These are not coming out yet.


----------



## gincan

davide84 said:


> Don't exagerate  to carry millions of travellers you would need thousands of trains, a traffic not seen even between economic capitals connected by HS lines...


Back in the 1930s before private vehicles and air travel was a thing, Blackpool used to handle thousands of trains carrying millions of brits arriving from all over the UK during summer holiday months, it sure was doable back then but also capacity was there with 3 stations and some 40+ platforms to handle all the trains.

As far as brits going to spain on trains there are plenty of underused railway lines in France to handle the extra load, it is just the HSR lines that are heavily used. Only the canal tunnel and Tarragona-Valencia has real capacity constrains, for the rest of the route you could add thousands of trains before running into any real capacity issues (assuming stations in spain were to be built out to meet demand, Alicante for example should have 20+ platforms, the space it there). The green voters won't mind spending 2 days on sleeper if than means they can do their holliday without polluting the air, and I'm not joking, there is a genuine demand even today from the left/green voters/ no farting cows crowd, polls and enquiries have shown that.

One enquiry in Sweden showed there was genuine demand from sleepers going all the way down to Alicante, even if it would take 3 days. And we are not talking about some crazy train freaks, thousands of participans would choose the train over the plane if they had the choice. Just wait until the Greta crowd grows up, thing will change a lot in the travel landscape the next 20 years or so, railbased travel will surge to levels not seen since the late 1800s, to early 1900s, new railways will have to be built to meet demand.


----------



## Sunfuns

They say that, but I'm not convinced until I actually see people paying for it. Most people haven't got enough time to spend 6 days on the train alone. That would make a standard two week holiday not all that attractive.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Many European tourist trips would be doable with a single night on a train, that is, from those Southern UK/France/Germany/Austria to Italy/France/Spain. For example, a decade ago I used a few times the Zürich/Milan-Barcelona night train*, but it has been voluntarily killed by negligence, mostly by French "workers"** on strike (I got my train cancelled at very short notice -that is, only when I was already on the station- at least on 3 out of 8 trips I made with that train).

Now, I would have to take at least three daily trains to make the same trip, not planned to connect to each other, and I would likely travel looking at a grey wall instead than out of a window. So why should I travel by train? To make such trip pleasant, trains should conenct to each other and the travel itself should be part of a holiday, not just hours of looking at a grey wall or waiting a connection in a station somewhere.

*the two sections used to split/join in Lyon, and I choose which one according to available places, as I live somewhere between those cities

**those of the SNCF, aka Sur Neuf Cinq Fainéants (=out of nine five slackers)


----------



## davide84

gincan said:


> Back in the 1930s before private vehicles and air travel was a thing, Blackpool used to handle thousands of trains carrying millions of brits arriving from all over the UK during summer holiday months


Do you have any source for these numbers? Like a timetable from the days or something...


----------



## gincan

davide84 said:


> Do you have any source for these numbers? Like a timetable from the days or something...


You have to go to the library to find such information

Blackpool central was officially regarded the busiest train station in the world in 1911, in 1936 it handled up to 650 trains every single day. When you add Blackpool north station we are talking in excess of a thousand daily trains going in and out of Blackpool in the 1930s during summer holiday peak season. Depending on the source, anywhere between 6 and 8 million holiday tourists visisted Blackpool every year in the 1930s. Assuming an average train load was 100 passengers, you would need between 60 and 80 thousand trains to transport all those tourists in and out of Blackpool, the vast majority of it in the summer holiday season.

The railroad between Blackpool and Preston had 4 tracks to be able to handle all the trains, Preston railway station itself was huge for such a small town, it had 16 platforms and 8 inbound tracks from both north and south, when you factor in the trains on the WCML to/from Scottland, it probably handled 14-1500 trains a day during holiday peak season and was probably the busiest railroad station in UK history in terms if train movements, maybe only London Bridge station hadle more trains now after the renovation but I have not seen any numbers.


----------



## shakeltown

la red ferroviaria española es una de las mejores de Europa


----------



## 437.001

AlecC281 said:


> No, these are not the "half-new" rolling stock. These are new wider Talgo coaches.
> 
> The 107 series are the ones that will use refurbished Trenhotel coaches. These are not coming out yet.


You're right.

I found out, but it was too late at night, and by then I was too sleepy to edit that.


----------



## 437.001

Some images of the new class 106 trains at Sanabria-AV station (which hasn't opened yet).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357791810932850689


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> Some images of the new class 106 trains at Sanabria-AV station (which hasn't opened yet).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357791810932850689


I really appreciate the effort that they have done for reducing the height of the locomotives to get closer to the coaches' height.


----------



## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼
Yeah. The front side of the new class 106 sort of reminds me of the Alaris class 490.
Also the Avant class 104.
Don't you think?


----------



## Reivajar

437.001 said:


> 🔼 🔼 🔼
> Yeah. The front side of the new class 106 sort of reminds me of the Alaris class 490.
> Also the Avant class 104.
> Don't you think?


Yes, more rounded and a bit more vertical, but it reminds me that design too. You are right. I hadn't thought of that.


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> Back in the 1930s before private vehicles and air travel was a thing, Blackpool used to handle thousands of trains carrying millions of brits arriving from all over the UK during summer holiday months, it sure was doable back then but also capacity was there with 3 stations and some 40+ platforms to handle all the trains.


Yeah, but a fundamental difference is distance.
Tourist travel to Blackpool back then was all from within Britain (and I dare to say most of it England).
Nowadays, while on one hand a Eurostar from London to Barcelona is feasible with a minimally decent travel time (less than 10 hours), technically and with the current infrastructure and capacity, it makes less of an interesting case to run many services, because it just wouldn't be able to compete against air travel.

About the same happens with routes to Spain from Belgium and the Netherlands.
A little less so from Southern Germany.
And Spain-Switzerland and Spain-Italy have lots and lots of room for improvement.

On the other hand, while yes, night trains to Spain from pretty much anywhere in Britain, or for that matter most of Western Europe (France, Switzerland, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Southern Germany) would be easily feasible, on the other hand something like Berlin-Barcelona, Dresden-Barcelona, or Hamburg-Barcelona would already be a bit long (more so if the trains went further south than Barcelona).
Not to say night routes into Spain from places like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Poland, Hungary...
The only case where I'm a bit doubtful is Austria, but there's not a lot of Austrian tourists in Spain (I think they prefer Italy, Slovenia and Croatia because it's next door).



gincan said:


> As far as brits going to spain on trains there are plenty of underused railway lines in France to handle the extra load, it is just the HSR lines that are heavily used.


Yeah, but this would have to involve the total gauge change of the Spanish rail network, or having rolling stock that would be able to change gauge (and reinstating border gauge changers at Portbou and Irun), because otherwise those trains could saturate the Spanish HS network (not to say that at peaks, there also are bottlenecks on the classic network around main cities and certain single-track sections).



gincan said:


> Only the Channel tunnel and Tarragona-Valencia has real capacity constrains, for the rest of the route you could add thousands of trains before running into any real capacity issues (assuming stations in spain were to be built out to meet demand, Alicante for example should have 20+ platforms, the space it there).


No, not Tarragona-Valencia but Castellon-Valencia.
Tarragona-Castellon, now that there's double track all the way, is far from saturated.



gincan said:


> The green voters won't mind spending 2 days on sleeper if than means they can do their holliday without polluting the air, and I'm not joking, there is a genuine demand even today from the left/green voters/ no farting cows crowd, polls and enquiries have shown that.
> 
> One enquiry in Sweden showed there was genuine demand from sleepers going all the way down to Alicante, even if it would take 3 days. And we are not talking about some crazy train freaks, thousands of participans would choose the train over the plane if they had the choice. Just wait until the Greta crowd grows up, thing will change a lot in the travel landscape the next 20 years or so, railbased travel will surge to levels not seen since the late 1800s, to early 1900s, new railways will have to be built to meet demand.


This may be the case of Sweden now, but I'd be a bit prudent about it.

Who knows what may happen in the not-so-near future?

Perhaps we'll watch the development of electric car instead...



Sunfuns said:


> They say that, but I'm not convinced until I actually see people paying for it. Most people haven't got enough time to spend 6 days on the train alone. That would make a standard two week holiday not all that attractive.


You have a point there.



Coccodrillo said:


> Many European tourist trips would be doable with a single night on a train, that is, from those Southern UK/France/Germany/Austria to Italy/France/Spain. For example, a decade ago I used a few times the Zürich/Milan-Barcelona night train*, but it has been voluntarily killed by negligence, mostly by French "workers"** on strike (I got my train cancelled at very short notice -that is, only when I was already on the station- at least on 3 out of 8 trips I made with that train).
> 
> Now, I would have to take at least three daily trains to make the same trip, not planned to connect to each other, and I would likely travel looking at a grey wall instead than out of a window. So why should I travel by train? To make such trip pleasant, trains should conenct to each other and the travel itself should be part of a holiday, not just hours of looking at a grey wall or waiting a connection in a station somewhere.


Ben trovato, questo qua.

I think night train (or even daytime train?) could be made more attractive if the travelling experience were to become less "airplane-like" and back to railway being just railway (in the good side of old railways - see CIWL, etc).
More of an experience in itself.
And I like your comments about windows, even though I'm a bit more of a conformist with it than you (I'm not claustrophobic), but every time I get a window-less seat I get half-crossed, because I always love window-gazing from the train.

THAT SAID... how posh and expensive could that become? Not everyone who comes to holiday in Spain can afford a certain kind of comfortable travel, and many would just cram themselves into the cheapest, most incomfortable option (see Ouigo and whatever else is to come).



gincan said:


> You have to go to the library to find such information
> 
> Blackpool central was officially regarded the busiest train station in the world in 1911, in 1936 it handled up to 650 trains every single day. When you add Blackpool north station we are talking in excess of a thousand daily trains going in and out of Blackpool in the 1930s during summer holiday peak season. Depending on the source, anywhere between 6 and 8 million holiday tourists visisted Blackpool every year in the 1930s. Assuming an average train load was 100 passengers, you would need between 60 and 80 thousand trains to transport all those tourists in and out of Blackpool, the vast majority of it in the summer holiday season.
> 
> The railroad between Blackpool and Preston had 4 tracks to be able to handle all the trains, Preston railway station itself was huge for such a small town, it had 16 platforms and 8 inbound tracks from both north and south, when you factor in the trains on the WCML to/from Scottland, it probably handled 14-1500 trains a day during holiday peak season and was probably the busiest railroad station in UK history in terms if train movements, maybe only London Bridge station hadle more trains now after the renovation but I have not seen any numbers.


Clapham Junction is the busiest British station, not London Bridge.
I talk number of trains, though, not number of passengers (in number of passengers I think it's London Waterloo, if I remember well).


----------



## Stuu

gincan said:


> You have to go to the library to find such information
> 
> Blackpool central was officially regarded the busiest train station in the world in 1911, in 1936 it handled up to 650 trains every single day. When you add Blackpool north station we are talking in excess of a thousand daily trains going in and out of Blackpool in the 1930s during summer holiday peak season. Depending on the source, anywhere between 6 and 8 million holiday tourists visisted Blackpool every year in the 1930s. Assuming an average train load was 100 passengers, you would need between 60 and 80 thousand trains to transport all those tourists in and out of Blackpool, the vast majority of it in the summer holiday season.


There are so many differences between now and then that it's barely worth comparing. The trains didn't come very far, certainly no more than 200 km, and took hours to get there. The factories all closed down for different weeks of the summer, which was coordinated to even the numbers out. People were rammed into the trains, there were many more than 100 per carriage on many occasions. Operating practices were not all that great, and people abandoned that way of going on holiday as soon as they had the chance.

The percentage of people who take 2-3 hour flights to Spain who would be prepared to swap it for 12 hours or more on a train is very small. The costs of upgrading lines through Europe for the traffic is enormous. It is unlikely to happen at all

One further point: the cost of maintaining all the infrastructure that would be needed is also huge compared to air travel. If rail is the future, tourism to Spain will be much lower volume than now. Basically the numbers don't add up to be able to maintain the current mass tourism


----------



## 33Hz

Speaking as a member of the green/left/no farting cows crowd I can confirm it is perfectly possible to holiday in Iberia by train.

Out: Eurostar, lunch in Paris, TGV to Hendaye, sleeper train to Lisbon.

Return: Sevilla, AVE to Barcelona, evening and morning sightseeing then TGV+Eurostar to UK that night.

Overall 10 days in the Algarve with a couple of nice city breaks on each end.

The Chinese have high speed sleeper services carrying 880 people. I don't see why one couldn't leave Manchester at 8pm, London at 9pm then arrive at Barcelona at 6am and Madrid at 8:30. It would give the French network extra revenue at night and justify the HS1-HS2 link. You would however need 5 such trains a day to carry London-Alicante air traffic in the peak season.


----------



## gincan

Stuu said:


> The percentage of people who take 2-3 hour flights to Spain who would be prepared to swap it for 12 hours or more on a train is very small. The costs of upgrading lines through Europe for the traffic is enormous. It is unlikely to happen at all


A decade ago I would have been prepared to agree with you, but the reality is that the world is changing and the new heroes of the young generation are people like Greta Thunberg and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, they and their acolytes are bound to force through massive changes that would have been unthinkable just a decade ago. This does not mean that all of this will happend over night, it will probably take several decades but I'm pretty sure by now it is terminal. The electric revolution is a mirage, it always was, people fantasising about electric airliners and billions of electric private vehicles will eventually have to throw in the towel and realize just how ridiculous such a notion is.



Stuu said:


> One further point: the cost of maintaining all the infrastructure that would be needed is also huge compared to air travel. If rail is the future, tourism to Spain will be much lower volume than now. Basically the numbers don't add up to be able to maintain the current mass tourism


In the same way today's airtravel based infrastructure wasn't there 40-50 years ago, I see no reason why the railway infrastructure can't be scaled up to meet the demand once it is actually there and established. Just look how fast UK rail travel doubled in numbers once the services were there to support it, and this happened at a time when no one had even heard of Greta and her acolytes.

I mean to be perfectly blunt about it, if Spain does not do all it can to ensure easy access to its seaside resorts by way of railway, future generations might just decide to go back to Blackpool and the other seaside resorts in England rather than having to deal wth the hassle of figuring out how to reach Benidom or Torrevieja without ever setting foot on an airplane.


----------



## Stuu

gincan said:


> In the same way today's airtravel based infrastructure wasn't there 40-50 years ago, I see no reason why the railway infrastructure can't be scaled up to meet the demand once it is actually there and established. Just look how fast UK rail travel doubled in numbers once the services were there to support it, and this happened at a time when no one had even heard of Greta and her acolytes.
> 
> I mean to be perfectly blunt about it, if Spain does not do all it can to ensure easy acess to its seaside resorts by way of railway, future generations might just decide to go back to Blackpool and the other seaside resorts in England rather than having to deal wth the hassle of figuring out how to reach Benidom or Torrevieja without ever setting foot on an airplane.


The difference is that air travel needs very little infrastructure, just airports and a few radar stations. It's so much more straightforward than building thousands of miles of new rail capacity. Rail travel in the UK increased for a number of reasons, but very little new infrastructure has been built. 

I think it would be great if this traffic could be shifted to more sustainable means of travel, but just look at the numbers involved: 18m travellers to Spain just from the UK in 2019. Most of them will be in the summer, so if making a few assumptions e.g. 12m of those are in the peak 3 months. How many trains are needed for half of them to travel by train... 6m people travelling over 90 days is 66,666 per day, or 67 trains with a thousand people on each one. That's a train leaving every 15 minutes, for 16 hours of every day, just for the UK to Spain holiday market. What about travellers to the south of France or Italy? And that is just the UK, the rest of northern Europe likes going to the sun too.

The other thing to consider is that if climate change happens as predicted, UK resort's climate will be more like the Mediterranean anyway so the need to travel will be reduced anyway (although it would be better if humanity can get it's act together instead)


----------



## Sunfuns

I think it will take less money and effort to invent electric or hydrogen consuming airplanes.


----------



## gincan

Stuu said:


> The difference is that air travel needs very little infrastructure, just airports and a few radar stations. It's so much more straightforward than building thousands of miles of new rail capacity. Rail travel in the UK increased for a number of reasons, but very little new infrastructure has been built.


Heathrow's third runway alone would cost 14 billion pounds, that is enough money to quadruple HS1 including a second channel tunnel and enough change to fund ongoing track and tunnel maintenance for many years. Airport infrastructure is extremely expensive and hardly cost effective in most cases. Spain has blown billions of euros on airport expansions in the last decades, most of it thrown away, in some cases literally as in the case of ciudad real airport that cost spanish taxpayers 1 billion euros, or the complete insanity of building 2 airports in Murcia, another billion plus euros pissed away.



Stuu said:


> I think it would be great if this traffic could be shifted to more sustainable means of travel, but just look at the numbers involved: 18m travellers to Spain just from the UK in 2019. Most of them will be in the summer, so if making a few assumptions e.g. 12m of those are in the peak 3 months. How many trains are needed for half of them to travel by train... 6m people travelling over 90 days is 66,666 per day, or 67 trains with a thousand people on each one. That's a train leaving every 15 minutes, for 16 hours of every day, just for the UK to Spain holiday market. What about travellers to the south of France or Italy? And that is just the UK, the rest of northern Europe likes going to the sun too.
> 
> The other thing to consider is that if climate change happens as predicted, UK resort's climate will be more like the Mediterranean anyway so the need to travel will be reduced anyway (although it would be better if humanity can get it's act together instead)


What you would see is a combination of both, fewer people traveling abroad due to better climate in the UK but also infrastructure being adressed as demand rise for train travel. HS2 is not a vanity project by some train freaks, there is genuine demand behind it and without the massive rise in train travel across England over the last 3 decades, HS2 would never had happened.


----------



## Stuu

gincan said:


> Heathrow's third runway alone would cost 14 billion pounds, that is enough money to quadruple HS1 including a second channel tunnel and enough change to fund ongoing track and tunnel maintenance for many years.


It absolutely wouldn't 


gincan said:


> HS2 is not a vanity project by some train freaks, there is genuine demand behind it and without the massive rise in train travel across England over the last 3 decades, HS2 would never had happened.


I am entirely in favour of HS2 and rail travel more generally, I agree there is a genuine demand for it and it is a very good thing that it is happening. Quite different to the argument about whether seasonal holiday traffic can or should be handled by train though - HS2 will be busy every day of the year


----------



## ppkyuela

437.001 said:


> *Monforte del Cid-Murcia HSL
> 
> Section Monforte del Cid-Orihuela*
> 
> An official Adif video (in Spanish):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First AVE Orihuela-Madrid leaving Orihuela station bound for Madrid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First AVE Madrid-Orihuela entering the Orihuela tunnel leading into Orihuela station (and right before, a class 592 DMU on an Alicante-Murcia Cercanías service):


Is good to remark that in the video appears new renders of how the new Murcia del Carmen Station can look like. I've attached photos of some screenshots of the video.


----------



## 437.001

*Antequera to Granada HSL*

An update on the works of the new gauge changer at Granada.
It will allow new Alvia services from Madrid to Almeria and vv. via Cordoba-Antequera-Granada.
You can also watch guest appearances of a Renfe class 599 DMU on an Almeria to Granada service.
And also of two Granada tramways at the Cerrillo Maracena stop, right next to the gauge changer.


----------



## K_

shakeltown said:


> la red ferroviaria española es una de las mejores de Europa


Great infrastructure indeed. An incompetent operator though.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Murcia-Almeria HSL

Section Pulpi-Almeria*

1) Images of the works between Nijar and Almeria.
Click here to see them:
*Fotos: El AVE va encarrilándose | Ideal*



*Antequera-Granada HSL*

1) Another video of the works of the new gauge changer at Granada.








2) New article (in Spanish) about Loja station.
Click here to read it:
*Trenes en Granada: dos millones para mejorar los accesos a la estación AVE de Loja (granadahoy.com)*



*(Madrid-)Toledo-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL

Section Plasencia-Caceres-Merida-Badajoz*

1) An Adif video about the upgrades at Plasencia, Caceres, Merida and Badajoz stations.








2) A drone video filmed around Valdesalor, just south of Caceres on the way to Merida.








*Leon-Asturias HSL (Pajares base tunnels)*

1) By clicking here: *OAN Adif* ...you get an official Adif document in Spanish, concerning yet again more works to contain the Campomanes land instability. 
The Asturias thing is a fvck-up after another...

2) On the upside, it looks like the upgrade of Leon station is advancing, and could be soon open.
Thus, Leon station should again be a passing station, instead of a dead-end station.


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> Yeah, but a fundamental difference is distance.
> Tourist travel to Blackpool back then was all from within Britain (and I dare to say most of it England).
> Nowadays, while on one hand a Eurostar from London to Barcelona is feasible with a minimally decent travel time (less than 10 hours), technically and with the current infrastructure and capacity, it makes less of an interesting case to run many services, because it just wouldn't be able to compete against air travel.


You are looking at the past here, things are way different now. One of the private train operators in Sweden started selling night train tickets for the winter holliday season between Malmö and Bishofshofen, a 19 hour train journey. Demand for the cancelled 2021 season was so big bookings are already open for the 2022 season. There is even enough demand for a direct train from Stockholm, a 24 hour train journey. And these are not orient express trains exactly concerning comfort, the cars will have 6 beds in each compartment, or in other words packed like sardines.

And no, these holliday trains are not aimed at the train hippie travelers, you can't even book individual tickets for these trains, you have to book the whole compartment. We are not talking about working class families going on a train journey across Europe here, a week in the Austrian alps is expensive even for an upper middle class family in Sweden, instead what is happening is that kids are forcing their parents to look for alternative modes of transport over the airplanes, they are litterally refusing to travel on planes. Which means there is no competition with airplanes. And this is not isolated to Sweden, it is happening all over Europe.

As I said in my other posts, things are changing really very fast right now, the idea that spending 10-15-30 hours on a train somehow is not competitive with airplanes is simply not true anymore. The new generations growing up now has a completely different mindset, is is so drastic the general public has not yet caught up with it.


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> You are looking at the past here, things are way different now. One of the private train operators in Sweden started selling night train tickets for the winter holliday season between Malmö and Bishofshofen, a 19 hour train journey.


What do Swedish people do in Bischofshofen?
Isn't it just a border town between Germany and the Czech Rep?


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> What do Swedish people do in Bischofshofen?
> Isn't it just a border town between Germany and the Czech Rep?


Bishofshofen is in Austria south of Salzburg, from there you take a buss to any of the central Austrian skiing areas. The train also stop in Zell am See, St Johann and Wörgl from where you change to a train or buss to take you to St Anton or Sölden or any of the other popular ski resorts in western Austria.

The thing is, it is 2-3 time more expensive for an average person to spend a week in Sölden or St Anton skiing than it is to spend a week in Playa del Inglés or Benidorm sunbathing even if you stay at a nice hotell. So we are talking about high income families that can easily afford flying down but choose to take the train even though you have to spend 2 entire days traveling on a train with very little comfort.

This is why I'm saying Spain should really be more ambitious when it comes to train infrastructure, because if you cant get to the spanish mediterranean coast on a nightrain from England or Holland or Germany or even Scandinavia, you instead go to France, or Italy or Croatia or even Greece, all within reach of a 20-30 hour train ride.

I hear all the time people saying it sounds ridiculous that anyone would be willing to sacrifice 2 days of their holliday just so they can ride a train instead of a plane but the reality is that global warming is making large portions of the population shitting bricks right now and they are willing to do anything including spending 30 hours each way on a train if that means they believe they are contributing less to global warming.


----------



## Stuu

It would be interesting to see a comparison of carbon emissions between air travel and the construction of thousands of km of new infrastructure that would be needed to switch travel to rail in aa meaningful way.

Germany can barely build railways for its own needs e.g. Mannheim-Frankfurt NBS has been planned for 35 years and nothing has happened. How long will it take to build the extra infrastructure needed so Scandinavians can go on holiday?


----------



## davide84

I go to holiday by train, e.g. Liguria, Southern Italy, Croatia, sometimes with night trains. I would have used a train to Sevilla if I could, but it would have been impractical - the missing part for me was a good link between CH/FR and Barcelona, surely not the capacity of stations in southern Spain.

Despite my passion and strong preference for the train, I still doubt that this type of traffic will experience any explosive growth. I foresee a slow but constant growth instead, like OeBB is planning from 2023 onwards. By 2030 night train traffic could be 3-5 times what it was pre-Covid, IMHO. Consider that just ordering rolling stock takes a few years, nothing happens fast in the railway world.

Anyway, I am positive there will be growth and I am looking forward to it 🙂 I miss Andalusia!


----------



## M-NL

gincan said:


> I hear all the time people saying it sounds ridiculous that anyone would be willing to sacrifice 2 days of their holliday just so they can ride a train instead of a plane ...


Then why is it that a lot, maybe even the majority, of Dutch vacationers go to Spain by bus? (Partial answer: Because it's cheaper!)
If, for more or less the same price of course, I had a choice between train or bus I know which one I would choose.


----------



## 437.001

M-NL said:


> Then why is it that a lot, maybe even the majority, of Dutch vacationers go to Spain by bus? (Partial answer: Because it's cheaper!)
> If, for more or less the same price of course, I had a choice between train or bus I know which one I would choose.


The fact is - I'm not certain that Amsterdam-Barcelona is unfeasible in one day (i mean by daytime).
A long trip, but within Spain there's worse (Barcelona-Vigo, for instance).

However, Amsterdam-Malaga is unfeasible in one day.
But as a night train... I think it could be useful to many.


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## Sunfuns

Me and girlfriend are thinking of a sightseeing grand train trip from Basel to Santiago while spending few days enroute in Lyon, Montpelier, Barcelona and Madrid. Only one way though with a flight back. Perhaps covid won't allow it this year, but if so the next one...

As for night trains and flights the alternative is also to drive. You can drive your electric vehicle from Amsterdam to Andalucia just as easily in about 3 days or so. Although to truly save on emissions one would need to choose Dutch and Swedish beaches instead. Not seeing that happening in massive numbers...


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> Bishofshofen is in Austria south of Salzburg,


Sorry, I got Bischofshofen (Austria) mixed up with Bischofswerda (Germany). 😅


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## alserrod

gincan said:


> Bishofshofen is in Austria south of Salzburg, from there you take a buss to any of the central Austrian skiing areas. The train also stop in Zell am See, St Johann and Wörgl from where you change to a train or buss to take you to St Anton or Sölden or any of the other popular ski resorts in western Austria.
> 
> The thing is, it is 2-3 time more expensive for an average person to spend a week in Sölden or St Anton skiing than it is to spend a week in Playa del Inglés or Benidorm sunbathing even if you stay at a nice hotell. So we are talking about high income families that can easily afford flying down but choose to take the train even though you have to spend 2 entire days traveling on a train with very little comfort.
> 
> This is why I'm saying Spain should really be more ambitious when it comes to train infrastructure, because if you cant get to the spanish mediterranean coast on a nightrain from England or Holland or Germany or even Scandinavia, you instead go to France, or Italy or Croatia or even Greece, all within reach of a 20-30 hour train ride.
> 
> I hear all the time people saying it sounds ridiculous that anyone would be willing to sacrifice 2 days of their holliday just so they can ride a train instead of a plane but the reality is that global warming is making large portions of the population shitting bricks right now and they are willing to do anything including spending 30 hours each way on a train if that means they believe they are contributing less to global warming.




got it but.... since you have low-cost flights, railway really doesn't worth. It is a fact. Non-expensive flights on season that carries anyone to main airports

In addition, Top7 airports in Spain for foreing visitors are located in cities without railway connection (Palma, Las Palmas and Tenerife).


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> The thing is, it is 2-3 time more expensive for an average person to spend a week in Sölden or St Anton skiing than it is to spend a week in Playa del Inglés or Benidorm sunbathing even if you stay at a nice hotell. So we are talking about high income families that can easily afford flying down but choose to take the train even though you have to spend 2 entire days traveling on a train with very little comfort.


I somehow can't imagine a German, a French, a Brit, or a Belgian doing that.
Let alone a Spaniard, an Italian, a Portuguese or a Greek (who perhaps would though, as they don't "need" the sun, but instead we're usually fond of greenery).



gincan said:


> This is why I'm saying Spain should really be more ambitious when it comes to train infrastructure, because if you cant get to the spanish mediterranean coast on a nightrain from England or Holland or Germany or even Scandinavia, you instead go to France, or Italy or Croatia or even Greece, all within reach of a 20-30 hour train ride.


Yeah, but... aren't you seeing things too much from a Swedish/Scandinavian point of view?
I mean, you can do that if you want to, but... see above (_"I somehow can't imagine a German, a French etc"_).

Besides, to a Swede (or a Norwegian, and even more to a Finn), the Adriatic, or even the Black Sea coast are not as far away as Mediterranean Spain (as for Playa del Inglés, that's the Canary Islands, another story, as there they have summer nearly all year long).



gincan said:


> I hear all the time people saying it sounds ridiculous that anyone would be willing to sacrifice 2 days of their holliday just so they can ride a train instead of a plane but the reality is that global warming is making large portions of the population shitting bricks right now and they are willing to do anything including spending 30 hours each way on a train if that means they believe they are contributing less to global warming.


Dunno.
That's the _"Greta Thunberg"_ point of view, what will happen when we hear the _"Volkswagen starts massively building 100% electric cars"_ point of view, for instance?



Stuu said:


> It would be interesting to see a comparison of carbon emissions between air travel and the construction of thousands of km of new infrastructure that would be needed to switch travel to rail in aa meaningful way.


Well, the difference is that construction happens only once, while air and car travel happens every day.



Stuu said:


> Germany can barely build railways for its own needs e.g. Mannheim-Frankfurt NBS has been planned for 35 years and nothing has happened. How long will it take to build the extra infrastructure needed so Scandinavians can go on holiday?


Germany is quite unique in this, mainly because despite having Siemens, they first and most have the car industry (Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, BMW...) which obviously is one of the largest lobbies in Europe.

Also, and to a lesser degree, the density of certain parts of Western Germany makes things harder (particularly North Rhine-Westphalia).
How do you tell people from Gelsenkirchen that their ICE will now call only at Dortmund? "_Uberraschung!! Landskrieg!!!"_



davide84 said:


> I go to holiday by train, e.g. Liguria, Southern Italy, Croatia, sometimes with night trains. I would have used a train to Sevilla if I could, but it would have been impractical - the missing part for me was a good link between CH/FR and Barcelona, surely not the capacity of stations in southern Spain.
> 
> Despite my passion and strong preference for the train, I still doubt that this type of traffic will experience any explosive growth. I foresee a slow but constant growth instead, like OeBB is planning from 2023 onwards. By 2030 night train traffic could be 3-5 times what it was pre-Covid, IMHO. Consider that just ordering rolling stock takes a few years, nothing happens fast in the railway world.
> 
> Anyway, I am positive there will be growth and I am looking forward to it 🙂 I miss Andalusia!


Yeah, reality probably lies somewhere in between.



Sunfuns said:


> Me and girlfriend are thinking of a sightseeing grand train trip from Basel to Santiago while spending few days enroute in Lyon, Montpelier, Barcelona and Madrid. Only one way though with a flight back. Perhaps covid won't allow it this year, but if so the next one...
> 
> As for night trains and flights the alternative is also to drive. You can drive your electric vehicle from Amsterdam to Andalucia just as easily in about 3 days or so. Although to truly save on emissions one would need to choose Dutch and Swedish beaches instead. Not seeing that happening in massive numbers...


No, not really... 😅

But on the other hand, electric car would save tons of gas emissions, which would only be good.
That said, not all European railways are 100% electric, Switzerland excepted.
The worst are I think the Danes (correct me if I'm wrong).


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> In addition, Top7 airports in Spain for foreing visitors are located in cities without railway connection (Palma, Las Palmas and Tenerife).


Yeah, but those airports you mentioned are in the Balearic or Canary Islands, which obviously can't play in the same league.
The same applies to Sardinia, Corsica, Crete, Cyprus or Malta (and also for many of the Croatian or Greek smaller islands).

They can only rely on ferry boats or planes.

On the other hand, Sicily...
But that's trickier, as the sismicity in the area of the Messina Strait is complicated, and Mr Etna is always in the background (particularly these last weeks, where he's been well awake!).
But me, I'd like a Reggio Calabria-Messina bridge. Most Italians would, too.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Well, the difference is that construction happens only once, while air and car travel happens every day.


True, but all that concrete and steel adds up to a lot. HS2 is calculated to take 50 years to make up for its construction emissions, and that is going to be intensively used. Infrastructure to support tourist traffic isn't


437.001 said:


> Germany is quite unique in this, mainly because despite having Siemens, they first and most have the car industry (Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, BMW...) which obviously is one of the largest lobbies in Europe.
> 
> Also, and to a lesser degree, the density of certain parts of Western Germany makes things harder (particularly North Rhine-Westphalia).
> How do you tell people from Gelsenkirchen that their ICE will now call only at Dortmund? "_Uberraschung!! Landskrieg!!!"_


Exactly. Which is why this idea that people are going to suddenly swap to trains is nonsense. It cannot be done on anything like the scale required. If you say to the people of Germany "we need to build a new railway so Danes can go to the beach", they will tell you precisely what they think of that idea.


437.001 said:


> On the other hand, Sicily...
> But that's trickier, as the sismicity in the area of the Messina Strait is complicated, and Mr Etna is always in the background (particularly these last weeks, where he's been well awake!).
> But me, I'd like a Reggio Calabria-Messina bridge. Most Italians would, too.


I bet "most" wouldn't. Quite a lot of northern Italians would hate the idea of spending more money in the south. I used to share a flat with a woman from Torino who believed Africa started at Rome


----------



## gincan

437.001 said:


> That's the _"Greta Thunberg"_ point of view, what will happen when we hear the _"Volkswagen starts massively building 100% electric cars"_ point of view, for instance?


The European Union+UK+Switzerland+Norway private vehicle fleet is well in excess of 250 million cars and growing, once it hits 600 cars per 1000 europeans we are talking over 300 million cars.
Using very rough ballpark numbers, an average electric vehicle would require more that 1 megawatt of power per year, that is 250 terawatt of new power generation needed just to meet the need of all the electric vehicles, this does not include all the busses and trucks.

So the EV revolution will need hundres of thousands of new wind turbines just to meet the extra load on the existing grid, once you factor in the aging nuclear-coal-gas powerplants taken offline, Europe will need well over 1 million new wind turbines over the next 20-30 years, and that is just not going to happend.

An we havn't even begun to discuss how much it would cost to upgrade the power grid to be able to handle the huge power draw when a quarter billion vehicles are charging over night.


----------



## gincan

edit


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> True, but all that concrete and steel adds up to a lot. HS2 is calculated to take 50 years to make up for its construction emissions, [...]


This long? Didn't know that.
Anyway... on which parameters do they base themselves to reach such a conclusion?
Embankments and trenches, I suppose? Potential after-effects on underground waters of tunnelling?
Anything else?

Do they take these very same parameters into account when building a road or motorway?

Anyway, the UK having the GWML, and parts of the WCML and ECML to (lower) high-speed standards (again, Messrs Stephenson and Brunel, we kiss your backsides), so it's not so bad.



Stuu said:


> [...] and that is going to be intensively used. Infrastructure to support tourist traffic isn't


Oh, that's certain.



Stuu said:


> Exactly. Which is why this idea that people are going to suddenly swap to trains is nonsense. It cannot be done on anything like the scale required. If you say to the people of Germany "we need to build a new railway so Danes can go to the beach", they will tell you precisely what they think of that idea.


I don't think that a new railway line must be built for night trains.

But you'll perhaps agree with me and others in that discontinuing almost all of the night trains in Western Europe was not so much of a good idea.
Certain routes have been simply abandoned, making direct rail links more complicated.
And night trains were convenient to a perhaps not majoritary, but nevertheless significant segment of rail travellers.



Stuu said:


> I bet "most" wouldn't. Quite a lot of northern Italians would hate the idea of spending more money in the south. I used to share a flat with a woman from Torino who believed Africa started at Rome


Oh, don't know. Italian politics are even stranger than British or Spanish politics combined, and what Monday is white, the following Monday is black, so go figure... besides, many Northern Italians spend their holidays in Sicily anyway...




gincan said:


> The European Union+UK+Switzerland+Norway private vehicle fleet is well in excess of 250 million cars and growing, once it hits 600 cars per 1000 europeans we are talking over 300 million cars.


How is car ownership distributed in the different European countries?



gincan said:


> Using very rough ballpark numbers, an average electric vehicle would require more that 1 megawatt of power per year, that is 250 terawatt of new power generation needed just to meet the need of all the electric vehicles, this does not include all the busses and trucks.
> 
> So the EV revolution will need hundres of thousands of new wind turbines just to meet the extra load on the existing grid, once you factor in the aging nuclear-coal-gas powerplants taken offline, Europe will need well over 1 million new wind turbines over the next 20-30 years, and that is just not going to happend.
> 
> An we havn't even begun to discuss how much it would cost to upgrade the power grid to be able to handle the huge power draw when a quarter billion vehicles are charging over night.


Interesting post.

As for energy, there are many debates going on.
Some say nuclear, some say Spain should take more advantage of its sunny weather...


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> I don't think that a new railway line must be built for night trains.
> 
> But you'll perhaps agree with me and others in that discontinuing almost all of the night trains in Western Europe was not so much of a good idea.
> Certain routes have been simply abandoned, making direct rail links more complicated.
> And night trains were convenient to a perhaps not majoritary, but nevertheless significant segment of rail travellers.


I agree that night trains are a good idea, and I would support them being reinstated. I know there used to be a lot more but they still moved tiny numbers of people. Before air travel, hardly anyone travelled internationally, or even very far in their own countries. 

We don't need new infrastructure to run a better network of night trains, but to make a big change in the numbers flying then it's just impossible to carry them on the existing networks - I posted earlier in this thread that just UK-Spain holiday traffic would need a train every 15 minutes all day to meet _half_ the current demand for flying. There is no way anything close to that can be carried on existing networks. 

The solution is less travel or more sustainable flying, I just don't see night trains being more than a niche market


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## Sunfuns

Still off topic - when I moved to Basel I was surprised that Vienna is really far away and one really has to fly to get there. Not surprised Austria not so well known in Spain, Adriatic beaches vastly closer for Austrians. Will be even better then Brenner base tunnel opens. 

Back to trains let's remember that Spain and Italy are by far the best connected southern destinations from central and northern Europe and hopefully indeed some night trains come back to make it even better. Good luck trying to reach Greece, Croatia or Montenegro by train...


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## 437.001

Okay, back to topic...

*News

Vigo-Urzaiz station*

By clicking on this link:

*Vigo Vindeiro en Twitter: "@Primark @Cris8FM Xa había que non puñamos imaxes dende arriba. Na derradeira podedes ver como xa desapareceu o chanzo entre Vía Norte e o Vialia; agora hai unha suave pendente ata o núcleo central. Grazas polas vosas fotos. https://t.co/qH1IX4uy3c" / Twitter*

...you get access to a Twitter thread full of images (mostly by a SSC Vigo forumer) of the upgrade works at Vigo-Urzaiz station.

==========================================

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

By clicking on this link:

*Finalizado el camino de Otero de Sanabria a la estación del AVE - La Opinión de Zamora (laopiniondezamora.es)*

...you get access to an article (in Spanish) about Sanabria-AV station, and its tragicomedic story with the finished high-speed station which has no road access... till very recently (they've paved a rural way instead as a "patchysolution", and that will work as a provisory access until the infamous yet-unbuilt roundabout gets finished once and for all). Meanwhile, the station is still not open yet. 

-------------------------------------------------

And by clicking on this other link:

*Amas🤘✌ en Twitter: "Confirmamos que el 1.435 llega a Orense. 96238, primer tren de número en llegar a Orense en ancho internacional. @Captrain_Europe @Renfe @Adif_es @ferrovial_es @Ineco_es https://t.co/bHq2Kddzi2" / Twitter*

...you get to see a Tweet containing an image of one of the very first standard gauge works trains (with a class 319 diesel loco) to reach Ourense station.


----------



## Sunfuns

That story about Sanabria-AV station is indeed funny. I wonder if the station when finally operational will save this particular tiny village from extinction. From what I could gather there are only 26 inhabitants left there, but the station is only 500 m from housing area. Of course the station is meant for a far larger catchment area as a park and ride, but still if one desired a rural life a train station would be a plus over 100+ other tiny communities one could choose from in Galicia. 

I've been following building works of VIgo Urzaiz a bit. This will be a great station, possibly among the best in Spain.


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## Reivajar

Sunfuns said:


> That story about Sanabria-AV station is indeed funny. I wonder if the station when finally operational will save this particular tiny village from extinction. From what I could gather there are only 26 inhabitants left there, but the station is only 500 m from housing area. Of course the station is meant for a far larger catchment area as a park and ride, but still if one desired a rural life a train station would be a plus over 100+ other tiny communities one could choose from in Galicia.
> 
> I've been following building works of VIgo Urzaiz a bit. This will be a great station, possibly among the best in Spain.


As well, it is relatively close to Bragança, which has been for decades without railway access. It is a quite particular and interesting situation. I wonder if Portuguese people will use the station too.


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## Jordbcn

Sunfuns said:


> That story about Sanabria-AV station is indeed funny. I wonder if the station when finally operational will save this particular tiny village from extinction. From what I could gather there are only 26 inhabitants left there, but the station is only 500 m from housing area. Of course the station is meant for a far larger catchment area as a park and ride, but still if one desired a rural life a train station would be a plus over 100+ other tiny communities one could choose from in Galicia.
> 
> I've been following building works of VIgo Urzaiz a bit. This will be a great station, possibly among the best in Spain.


Maybe. In Spain we have already seen that -in a different scale, of course- in Ciudad Real and Puertollano. They experienced a boom when HS arrived and people started to commute between them and Madrid daily.


----------



## Lechucín

Spain’s HSR explained by a Canadian. Probably, nothing you don’t already know but it is a good summary in fact.


----------



## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼
_"Spain, a country smaller then either France or Germany"_??? 😓 😶
Spain, smaller than France? Yes, but only just.
Spain, smaller than Germany? No, Spain is larger. Spain is less populated than Germany, though.
Even Sweden is larger than Germany.

The video is slightly obsolete, as the HSL from both Alicante and Villena to Orihuela has opened.

It also has a mistake in that it says a HSL between Granada and Almeria will be built.
I don't think that will be the case, the classic line will be upgraded instead.

Another mistake is that the HSR connection between Valencia and Alicante won't be a line along the Costa Blanca (which would be horribly expensive), but a HSL between Valencia and Villena, currently under advanced construction (yet very delayed).


----------



## Lechucín

437.001 said:


> _"Spain, a country smaller then either France or Germany"_??? 😓 😶
> Spain, smaller than France? Yes, but only just.
> Spain, smaller than Germany? No, Spain is larger. Spain is less populated than Germany, though.
> Even Sweden is larger than Germany.


It is still smaller in terms of population and economy


----------



## Reivajar

Lechucín said:


> It is still smaller in terms of population and economy


True, so,... is Canada bigger or smaller than France or Germany?  (jk)


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> That story about Sanabria-AV station is indeed funny. I wonder if the station when finally operational will save this particular tiny village from extinction. From what I could gather there are only 26 inhabitants left there, but the station is only 500 m from housing area. Of course the station is meant for a far larger catchment area as a park and ride, but still if one desired a rural life a train station would be a plus over 100+ other tiny communities one could choose from in Galicia.





Reivajar said:


> As well, it is relatively close to Bragança, which has been for decades without railway access. It is a quite particular and interesting situation. I wonder if Portuguese people will use the station too.





Jordbcn said:


> Maybe. In Spain we have already seen that -in a different scale, of course- in Ciudad Real and Puertollano. They experienced a boom when HS arrived and people started to commute between them and Madrid daily.


We're not talking about anything remotely ressembling the level of commute between Puertollano, Ciudad Real and Madrid.
I mean, even before the Madrid-Seville HSL opened, there were buses packed with commuters departing from Ciudad Real for Madrid at 4AM. Classic trains on the old line via Algodor-Villaseca-Parla too, btw (if anyone remembers, it was the DMU's class 597, the infamous Spanish TER).

Sanabria is an entirely different thing, this is an area that is fighting depopulation, so I guess that not only does it need an AVE or Alvia calling there, but also other things.
I think the village of Otero will probably survive, it's too close to the HS station not to.

But the station may help improve the life in that area, which is so isolated, despite the reasonably good communications.

Perhaps, now that they have a motorway and (almost) a HSR station (and a classic rail station at Puebla de Sanabria), they should go head on for becoming attractive (businesses, tourism, a bus shuttle to Bragança, etc).


----------



## Sunfuns

A bit off topic again: reading over the last few years about Galicia HS line has made me aware of lots of small and not so small tows in that area (perhaps I only new Santiago and Vigo before). Puebla de Sanabria might be an interesting place to stop for a night or two while traveling further to Galicia. Perhaps there will be others who think the same.


----------



## 437.001

*News

(Murcia-)Pulpi-Almeria HSL*

Works at Almeria are advancing. For now, that consists on the elimination of a level-crossing, allowing a better integration of two different quarters of the city. Once it opens, in the beginning it will be used only by Almeria-Madrid and Almeria-Granada trains, but in the future also by the high-speed trains bound for Murcia and beyond.

Here's a video about it:








*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

The OHLE is already reaching Ourense station. Not all of it is in tension yet, though.
In this video (in Spanish), they talk about it, plus some images.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> A bit off topic again: reading over the last few years about Galicia HS line has made me aware of lots of small and not so small tows in that area (perhaps I only new Santiago and Vigo before). Puebla de Sanabria might be an interesting place to stop for a night or two while traveling further to Galicia. Perhaps there will be others who think the same.


Puebla de Sanabria is a charming, quiet, historical small old town.
Not far from there is Lake Sanabria, one of the few natural lakes Spain has (most are reservoirs on rivers, very few are true natural lakes like this one).
Also, the Portuguese city of Bragança is not far, and it's well worth a look for its old town.

Ourense is also worth it, not only because it's a railway junction, but the city is nice, with a huge medieval bridge, some hot springs, and a charming old town.

Another interesting one is Pontevedra, one of Spain's most underrated old towns.
I'll say no more, you go visit it. 

And of course, Zamora, with the banks of the Douro river, the old town with some magnificent Romanesque churches (notably the cathedral), and its beautiful railway station building.

All of them are worth the trip, and aren't as touristy as other better known places.

A Gudiña instead, is a bit more nondescript, but its surroundings are rather beautiful, particularly for trekking in spring and summer.


----------



## M-NL

Stuu said:


> I went on one of those once from Singapore. The air conditioning was set to "Irkutsk in January", and there was a TV showing the most violent film I have ever seen... apart from that the seats were 2+1 with maybe 25 seats in a normal sized coach, they laid down nearly flat, like a business class plane seat and I slept surprisingly well. I'm surprised they have never been tried in Europe for longer journeys


Sleeper buses are effectively banned in Europe, because nobody has yet managed to come up with convertible seats/ beds that are both comfortable enough and meet the European seatbelt laws. The first company to come up with a decent design may have a huge market opening up.
And no, officially while driving you can't use the beds in your camper van or even sleep lying on the back seat, if you're not properly buckled up.


----------



## alserrod

The fact about Puebla de Sanabria is, as 437 said, depopulation area. You will never get too many passengers there for sure, you will never have enough people for tourism but inner Spain is so depopulated that requires some actions. We are talking about 10 hab/km2 or so in some shires.

Trains will be increased but it will be enough some calls in Puebla de Sanabria to give a huge area a service. In other words, it will be never worked a railway TO Puebla de Sanabria (as well as with other depopulated zones) but as far as railway crosses that area it has been considered how to give minimal service.


----------



## Reivajar

I think that the most similar existing situation would be the station of Villanueva de Cordoba-Los Pedroches that open a few years ago on the Madrid-Seville HSL in a quite rural area North of Cordoba. I am not sure how well they are doing with that station. Although it is true that Sanabria is slightly further away from any mid-size city than the Northern mountains of Cordoba from the city of Cordoba.


----------



## Stuu

M-NL said:


> Sleeper buses are effectively banned in Europe, because nobody has yet managed to come up with convertible seats/ beds that are both comfortable enough and meet the European seatbelt laws. The first company to come up with a decent design may have a huge market opening up.
> And no, officially while driving you can't use the beds in your camper van or even sleep lying on the back seat, if you're not properly buckled up.


That's not right - this ran until a couple of years ago. I have never used it so I don't know how they solved that problem. There's also the touring buses that bands use, they often have beds in so there must be legal ways to travel that way


----------



## M-NL

I did some reading and found this German law:


> *Straßenverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung (StVZO)
> § 35i Gänge, Anordnung von Fahrgastsitzen und Beförderung von Fahrgästen in Kraftomnibussen*
> (1) In Kraftomnibussen müssen die Fahrgastsitze so angeordnet sein, dass der Gang in Längsrichtung frei bleibt. Im Übrigen müssen die Anordnung der Fahrgastsitze und ihre Mindestabmessungen sowie die Mindestabmessungen der für Fahrgäste zugänglichen Bereiche der Anlage X entsprechen.
> (2) In Kraftomnibussen dürfen Fahrgäste nicht liegend befördert werden. Dies gilt nicht für Kinder in Kinderwagen.


Translation of (2): 'In buses and coaches, passengers may not be transported lying down. This does not apply to children in strollers.'
So they may not be banned in entire Europe after all, but they currently are in Germany.


----------



## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> I think that the most similar existing situation would be the station of Villanueva de Cordoba-Los Pedroches that open a few years ago on the Madrid-Seville HSL in a quite rural area North of Cordoba. I am not sure how well they are doing with that station.


Pre-Covid, they were doing okayish (taking into account that only a few trains per day called there).
Renfe were even selling discount tickets for people going to the ham festival there.
The landscape between Puertollano and Cordoba is rather beautiful, too.



Reivajar said:


> Although it is true that *Sanabria is slightly further away from any mid-size city* than the Northern mountains of Cordoba from the city of Cordoba.


There's Bragança, which is bigger than anything around Villanueva de Córdoba.


----------



## 437.001

Before you click on the following link (which is in Spanish)...

*La complicada construcción del Túnel de El Regajal – Enrique Montalar*

...I strongly suggest you to go to *Traductor de Google* (<---Google Translate), as the article above is so interesting, but also a bit technical, and only in Spanish.

It is about the El Regajal tunnel, on the Madrid-Valencia HSL, near Aranjuez (Madrid).
An extremely complicated tunnel.

Said tunnel contains _"expansive fissured clays, glauberites, gypsum, halites and anhydrites, that is, problems of expansivity, corrosion, leaching and crossing of faults in soft materials, to make matters worse, during the excavation a hanging aquifer was also found, in short, Murphy's law in tunnel format"_.

And literally on top of it, and to make matters even worse, a Natural Reserve with a Special Preserve for Birds, and 73 different species of butterflies.

All in all, NOT EXACTLY just another tunnel. 

Just click and read it (with the aid of Google Translate if you can't read Spanish).


----------



## HSR project

Morning Everyone,
Super nice thread, well done for the hard work. I am currently trying to compile data about HSR construction projects in Spain, and other European countries to have an overview of costs / technical work required. Do you know where I can find a database related to tenders/bids for HSR construction projects in Spain?
Ideally it will include the type of machinery used, number of workers, technical specification (catenary, tunnels, etc.).


----------



## intersezioni

Trenitalia's first two frecciarossa trains are almost ready for the Spanish market.
Here are the photos of the trains being worked on in the Hitachi Italia plant in Pistoia.
We recall that Trenitalia has ordered 23 Frecciarossa 1000s for high-speed services in Spain for an economic value of approximately 800 million euros.
The 23 Frecciarossa 1000 will offer a new travel experience on the routes Madrid - Barcelona, Madrid - Valencia / Alicante and Madrid - Malaga / Seville with a number of daily connections up to 84 journeys in total.





































ferrovie.info


----------



## alserrod

Thx.

Do you have some pictures about seats and coach inside?

Is there any estimated time to start the service?


----------



## intersezioni

alserrod said:


> Thx.
> 
> Do you have some pictures about seats and coach inside?
> 
> Is there any estimated time to start the service?


This is the "Italian Version" , I assume it will look like this.






there was talk of the start of the service from January 2022
more info in english : https://www.fsitaliane.it/content/f...27/spain--trenitalia-awarded-hs-services.html


----------



## alserrod

Thanks

I have some relatives who are going to use ouigo due to it is possible in this line.
May we will have trenitalia too, the most concurrence, the best offer


----------



## intersezioni

alserrod said:


> Thanks
> 
> I have some relatives who are going to use ouigo due to it is possible in this line.
> May we will have trenitalia too, the most concurrence, the best offer


There will be a lot of competition with a big difference, the Italian trains are new and modern, the French ones are not


----------



## alserrod

intersezioni said:


> There will be a lot of competition with a big difference, the Italian trains are new and modern, the French ones are not



I bet so. SNCF is the "third" (nowadays the second, but just 5 daily trains only) operator. They focus on price. I have bought tickets for a terribly price. And obviously they focus on low-cost, despite it runs on 300.

Renfe has focused in both markets, the traditional one and some low-cost too.

Nevertheless, I bet marketing could be the difference too. Just an example, it is known some schedule changes are done by the middle of June and Renfe uses to block all trains to December and be sure there aren't any longer changes.
There have been some years with no tickets on Chritsmas till middle December, for instance.

In addition, a great deal of niceties that could be solved with management, focused on customer and... it is a must for any operator, not done for Renfe.

How is Trenitalia purchasing and changes policy?


----------



## doc7austin

A recent trip aboard the AVE Class S-112 High-Speed Train between Alicante and Madrid-Atoche in First Class (currently marketed as Turista Plus)









Enjoy!


----------



## 437.001

Off-topic coming from the *SPAIN | Railways | Page 173 | SkyscraperCity* thread.



Sunfuns said:


> Do you think a HS branch between Ourense and Vigo will happen? I've seen all kinds of plans with maps and everything, but how realistic they are I don't know.





alserrod said:


> No I do not. There are a lot of branches that could be improved saving time.
> In other words. Point to point, how much time will be saved (providing there's a line over Santiago) and how much money does it cost?


I don't know.

Certain people in Vigo are really very noisy about it, and you can see their reasoning, but the fact of the matter is that it would be an addition, an extra, to a region of Spain, Galicia, which has seen massive railway improvements in the last few years, with the final phase of the Galicia HSL (Pedralba-Taboadela) about to open as it's right now already on test runs.

They mainly complain about the travel time point to point from Vigo to Madrid, but that particular travel time is already being massively improved anyway (down to 3h 30min or so, can't remember now), although maybe not as much as other regions in Galicia or the rest of Spain.
What they complain the most about, though, is the travel time from Vigo to Ourense.
Tough luck I think, because there are other priorities in Spain, when you look at the bigger picture of the whole country.

I wouldn't discard it being built, but later on, because right now we have many other HSR priorities (Murcia-Almeria, Valencia-La Encina, Toledo-Talavera-Plasencia-Caceres-Merida-Badajoz, the Pajares base tunnels, and the Basque Y), and I'd also say general railway priorities (basically three, which are improving Cercanías, what to do with the Iberian gauge, and what to do with the metric gauge in northern Spain).
And that's a lot of money from the annual budgets.

And anyway, Vigo is seeing its travel time to Madrid improved anyway, just that the Vigo-Ourense travel time won't be much improved at all, however, it will be (it already is) a really big improvement for both Pontevedra and Vilagarcia to Madrid.
The main problem is that what works for Pontevedra doesn't work as much for Vigo.

It's a case not very different from the Granada HSL, but... we can't keep on building a main HSL, and then all of its branches, while leaving other regions in Spain HSR-less for much longer.



592 said:


> As Alserrod said, the Cerdedo variant is unlikely to actually be built, it's simply a too small gain for a very long line. Especially when the Vigo-Porriño direct line will be built, which will shave around 12 minutes of travel time (it currently requires an absurd detour via Redondela) and tip the balance back to the Miño Valley line.


I think that will be it.
However, this will probably mean that the Pontevedra/Vilagarcia services will have to be permanently split from the Vigo services in order to keep both areas with a decent travel time.


----------



## intersezioni

The first three ETR 400 - Frecciarossa 1000 have left the factory and will travel over the next few weeks to reach Spain. This was announced by the same company with an explanatory video.
The first convoy will arrive at the end of August to begin the homologation process and the second and third of the fleet will do so in September and December respectively.


----------



## Sunfuns

I think there is a potential of these new entrants being very positive for the market as a whole. At least before covid it worked great in Italy.


----------



## Andre_Filipe

Is Xativa gonna have a station for AVE?


----------



## alserrod

Andre_Filipe said:


> Is Xativa gonna have a station for AVE?



There aren't any plans in that corner

BTW, is it possible to have an Alvia reaching there, isnt' it?


----------



## Eloi von Grauwolf

alserrod said:


> There aren't any plans in that corner
> 
> BTW, is it possible to have an Alvia reaching there, isnt' it?


It's already built, as are the passengers' underpasses, and as is the through station in Moixent. The Valencia-Alacant HSL currently ends in Xàtiva, until the old line is reopened and the current Xàtiva-La Encina segment is regauged and reelectrified to 1435 mm 25 kV AC.


----------



## Andre_Filipe

Eloi von Grauwolf said:


> It's already built, as are the passengers' underpasses, and as is the through station in Moixent. The Valencia-Alacant HSL currently ends in Xàtiva, until the old line is reopened and the current Xàtiva-La Encina segment is regauged and reelectrified to 1435 mm 25 kV AC.


But Xativa itself wont have a stop then. So it goes directly from Valencia to Alicante?


----------



## Eloi von Grauwolf

Andre_Filipe said:


> But Xativa itself wont have a stop then. So it goes directly from Valencia to Alicante?


Well, that's something you're guessing. I can tell you nowadays all intercity trains (other than the Euromed semi-HST) do stop at Xàtiva. And they will probably keep doing so when they run on the HSL. I don't understand why you're saying they won't.

And there will be a high speed regional service too, probably.


----------



## 437.001

Andre_Filipe said:


> *But Xativa itself wont have a stop then*. So it goes directly from Valencia to Alicante?


If it weren't to have one, then why have they installed lampposts on the Alicante-bound high-speed platform which are identical to the lampposts of the other platforms, high-speed or not?
Why an underpass and a lift?


----------



## Andre_Filipe

Alserrod is the one who said "there aren't plans in that corner". I'm responding to his comment


----------



## Eloi von Grauwolf

Andre_Filipe said:


> Alserrod is the one who said "there aren't plans in that corner". I'm responding to his comment


Ok, I might have understood it the other way. Anyway, he didn't say "there won't be a station _and_ a stop at Xàtiva". He said "there aren't plans in that corner". 

And a station in Xàtiva is not a "plan", because it's already built. And it's being currently used to shunt and store track work vehicles.


----------



## coth

intersezioni said:


> This is the "Italian Version" , I assume it will look like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there was talk of the start of the service from January 2022
> more info in english : Spain: Trenitalia awarded HS services


At 9:49. Can you imagine this lack of culture somewhere in Japan or China? I can't even imagine here in Russia.


----------



## Khaul

437.001 said:


> Off-topic coming from the *SPAIN | Railways | Page 173 | SkyscraperCity* thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know.
> 
> Certain people in Vigo are really very noisy about it, and you can see their reasoning, but the fact of the matter is that it would be an addition, an extra, to a region of Spain, Galicia, which has seen massive railway improvements in the last few years, with the final phase of the Galicia HSL (Pedralba-Taboadela) about to open as it's right now already on test runs.
> 
> They mainly complain about the travel time point to point from Vigo to Madrid, but that particular travel time is already being massively improved anyway (down to 3h 30min or so, can't remember now), although maybe not as much as other regions in Galicia or the rest of Spain.
> What they complain the most about, though, is the travel time from Vigo to Ourense.
> Tough luck I think, because there are other priorities in Spain, when you look at the bigger picture of the whole country.
> 
> I wouldn't discard it being built, but later on, because right now we have many other HSR priorities (Murcia-Almeria, Valencia-La Encina, Toledo-Talavera-Plasencia-Caceres-Merida-Badajoz, the Pajares base tunnels, and the Basque Y), and I'd also say general railway priorities (basically three, which are improving Cercanías, what to do with the Iberian gauge, and what to do with the metric gauge in northern Spain).
> And that's a lot of money from the annual budgets.
> 
> And anyway, Vigo is seeing its travel time to Madrid improved anyway, just that the Vigo-Ourense travel time won't be much improved at all, however, it will be (it already is) a really big improvement for both Pontevedra and Vilagarcia to Madrid.
> The main problem is that what works for Pontevedra doesn't work as much for Vigo.
> 
> It's a case not very different from the Granada HSL, but... we can't keep on building a main HSL, and then all of its branches, while leaving other regions in Spain HSR-less for much longer.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that will be it.
> However, this will probably mean that the Pontevedra/Vilagarcia services will have to be permanently split from the Vigo services in order to keep both areas with a decent travel time.


I can find only four Vigo Madrid trains per day. The fastest time is 5h30’. They are also a bit pricey, 50+EUR for the slow MD one way, and seats are very hard to find. You need to book weeks in advance. This is typical or Renfe. Hopefully the new operators will force a better operation practice for the customer (decent frequency, lower price, seat availability…) The may go down to 3h30’ when they open the new HSL to Ourense and then, who knows, perhaps they will run 6 trains per day and you will be able to find tickets for less than 100EUR on sale. Sky is the limit!


----------



## davide84

coth said:


> At 9:49. Can you imagine this lack of culture somewhere in Japan or China? I can't even imagine here in Russia.


It's likely tourists eating and sleeping during long trips where they visit 7 cities in a day. It happens even in Switzerland, it's not necessarily a problem unless they break stuff. It also is a testimony of how "popular" (in the sense of not only for the few) high speed can be 🙂


----------



## keber

I dont know about Japan, but I've seen some videos from china high speed trains where people don't behave much different. Not mentioning other parts of Asia. Or airplanes all over the world.


----------



## Khaul

keber said:


> I dont know about Japan, but I've seen some videos from china high speed trains where people don't behave much different. Not mentioning other parts of Asia. Or airplanes all over the world.


Well sure, China, is not precisely a beacon of politeness. Hong Kong and Taiwan are very different, though. In Japan, speaking in your phone while riding a train is considered extremely rude. Chinese tourists are very easy to spot in the train from Haneda. They carry enormous suitcases, wear outlandish clothes and talk very loudly.


----------



## 437.001

Khaul said:


> I can find only four Vigo Madrid trains per day. The fastest time is 5h30’. They are also a bit pricey, 50+EUR for the slow MD one way, and seats are very hard to find. You need to book weeks in advance. This is typical or Renfe. Hopefully the new operators will force a better operation practice for the customer (decent frequency, lower price, seat availability…)


Yes, but travel time is the limit.
It's a bit like the other radial long-distance lines which have mountanous sectors (Asturias, Cantabria, Basque Country, Extremadura, Almeria, Algeciras).
With the travel time you're allowed to achieve, you can only introduce so many trains per day.



Khaul said:


> The may go down to 3h30’ when they open the new HSL to Ourense and then, who knows, perhaps they will run 6 trains per day and you will be able to find tickets for less than 100EUR on sale. Sky is the limit!


That's another story.
Once they open Pedralba to Taboadela (within months) and the Galicia HSL is as good as completed from end to end, you can start talking about new services... if you have enough available trains for that, that is.

The new AVE class 106 and 107 are coming (& also the new Frecciarossa for ILSA), but at a slow pace.


----------



## Henk Angenent

Does anyone know what the travel time between San Sebastian and Hendaye will be when the Basque Y is completed?

It seems logical to introduce a Paris-Bilbao TGV after the completion of the Basque Y, as a travel time of under 6 hours must be feasible for that route. How concrete are plans for the introduction of such a service?


----------



## 437.001

Henk Angenent said:


> Does anyone know what the travel time between San Sebastian and Hendaye will be when the Basque Y is completed?


The Basque Y won't have a HSL between San Sebastian and Hendaye, or between Dax and Hendaye.
You can thank the nimbys. 

Instead, Adif is installing a 3rd rail between Irun and Astigarraga (end of the Basque Y on the San Sebastian side).
They're also modifying the loading gauge of some tunnels on that section.
That's taking forever, by the way.



Henk Angenent said:


> It seems logical to introduce a Paris-Bilbao TGV after the completion of the Basque Y, as a travel time of under 6 hours must be feasible for that route. How concrete are plans for the introduction of such a service?


It would be extremely logical to extend each and every single TGV terminating at Irun/Hendaye to Bilbao, indeed.
The problem is... the section between Astigarraga and Irun will remain electrified at 3kV, because there's also the Cercanías commuter services.
So... unless they bring some TGV's that are also capable of running through Belgium, and fit them with Spanish signalling, it looks difficult.
Another option would be to allow AVE's to run on Paris-Bilbao, of course, but they should be adapted for 3kV, and I'm not sure class 106 will be. Class 107 on the other hand might be able to do the job.

Anyway, there's still a few years left until the Basque Y opens at last.


----------



## Henk Angenent

Thanks! Yeah, I wasn't counting on HSR between San Sebastian and Hendaye, but dual gauge should already improve things quite a bit. It's a very short stretch to the French border anyway, so I'm not sure HSR would mean much difference.

There should also be 10 tricurrent Euroduplex trains specifically built for operation within Spain right? They are now used mostly for the service to Barcelona.


----------



## AlbertJP

On Hendaye-San Sebastián there is not much to gain. Perhaps the HSR will do it in 20 minutes but I guess it'll (at least initially) be less frequent and more expensive than the Topo, which has a travel time of 37 minutes at the moment.

You will get more out of the HSR once it connects to places further away in France, because the connection time between the Topo and SNCF trains is rather long at the moment. Or the TGV trains get extended to San Sebastián. I'm hoping for both.


----------



## Henk Angenent

Well, I'm hoping at least some Paris-Hendaye services will be extended to Bilbao, and not only to San Sebastian (where the gains are less significant indeed because there is a metro service between Hendaye and San Sebastian). Paris-Bilbao is currently extremely unpractical by train, but should be very comfortable and fast once the Basque Y is complete.


----------



## Suburbanist

How long would a hypothetical Paris - Madrid train via Boedeaux take when the project is completed?


----------



## AlbertJP

Henk Angenent said:


> because there is a metro service between Hendaye and Bilbao


San Sebastián-Bilbao is more commonly done by bus, as the bus (by Pesa) is about twice as fast and more frequent; the train is used to reach intermediate towns. The bus station is close to the Renfe train station but 15 minutes by foot away from the Euskotren station in Amara.

Paris-Bilbao is indeed unpractical, you need to go to Hendaye, take the Topo, walk 15 minutes and then take the bus. An easier way to get there is to take the direct Flixbus at night.
With the HSR this should become possible during the day, perhaps with one change of train.


----------



## alserrod

AlbertJP said:


> On Hendaye-San Sebastián there is not much to gain. Perhaps the HSR will do it in 20 minutes but I guess it'll (at least initially) be less frequent and more expensive than the Topo, which has a travel time of 37 minutes at the moment.
> 
> You will get more out of the HSR once it connects to places further away in France, because the connection time between the Topo and SNCF trains is rather long at the moment. Or the TGV trains get extended to San Sebastián. I'm hoping for both.





Henk Angenent said:


> Well, I'm hoping at least some Paris-Hendaye services will be extended to Bilbao, and not only to San Sebastian (where the gains are less significant indeed because there is a metro service between Hendaye and Bilbao). Paris-Bilbao is currently extremely unpractical by train, but should be very comfortable and fast once the Basque Y is complete.





Suburbanist said:


> How long would a hypothetical Paris - Madrid train via Boedeaux take when the project is completed?





AlbertJP said:


> San Sebastián-Bilbao is more commonly done by bus, as the bus (by Pesa) is about twice as fast and more frequent; the train is used to reach intermediate towns. The bus station is close to the Renfe train station but 15 minutes by foot away from the Euskotren station in Amara.
> 
> Paris-Bilbao is indeed unpractical, you need to go to Hendaye, take the Topo, walk 15 minutes and then take the bus. An easier way to get there is to take the direct Flixbus at night.
> With the HSR this should become possible during the day, perhaps with one change of train.



I will try to reply to all of you

Irun and surroundings have more population than Bayonne+Biarritz, therefore, it deserves a station.
We have the example of Ciudad Real and Puertollano. Two stations within 35 km and just 15 minutes. They started on... 1992. Trains Madrid-Sevilla (later Madrid-south) could be non-stop or calling in both stations (to give service Ciudad Real-Sevilla for instance). In addition, regional high speed trains Madrid-Puertollano call in Ciudad Real and... they have enough passengers Ciudad Real-Puertollano!!!!. This is, they are trains for Madrid-Ciudad Real and Madrid-Puertollano but obviously anyone can use it just to commute. 
It doesn't worth to build a high speed line for just 35 km but as far as it is built (to arrive to Seville), it can be used just to commute. Just an example, Ciudad Real station is besides university and all students move by high speed train.

Irun-Bilbao is around 120 km by motorway, so you can guess how long it would take a Hendaye/Irun - Bilbao train calling at San Sebastian.

A long time ago I read about four Paris-San Sebastian and one out of them enlarged to Bilbao (Three Paris - San Sebastian and one Paris - Bilbao instead of four Paris - Hendaye). AFAIK it is possible since (except in the most frequent lines where there are focused services) any company can ask to operate in Spain. For a new company it will be hard to get into operations but for SNCF (and CP) it shouldn't be so hard to operate within Spain (the fact is to operate in an easy market).

Regarding Irun-Bilbao... I remember going to Bordeaux by car with a friend and stopping in Hendaye to catch some other friends. One of them was from the nearby of Bilbao and he took a Bilbao-Irun bus (that made a short call in Hendaye and back to Bilbao). I would bet you can go from Hendaye and Irun to anywhere in the north of Spain by bus due to lack of other services.


----------



## Henk Angenent

AlbertJP said:


> San Sebastián-Bilbao is more commonly done by bus, as the bus (by Pesa) is about twice as fast and more frequent; the train is used to reach intermediate towns. The bus station is close to the Renfe train station but 15 minutes by foot away from the Euskotren station in Amara.
> 
> Paris-Bilbao is indeed unpractical, you need to go to Hendaye, take the Topo, walk 15 minutes and then take the bus. An easier way to get there is to take the direct Flixbus at night.
> With the HSR this should become possible during the day, perhaps with one change of train.


Yeah, sorry, I meant the metro between Hendaye and San Sebastian.


----------



## AlbertJP

alserrod said:


> I would bet you can go from Hendaye and Irun to anywhere in the north of Spain by bus due to lack of other services.


True, the bus is the most used mode of transport for long-ish distances around the north coast and to the French Basque Country.


alserrod said:


> Irun and surroundings have more population than Bayonne+Biarritz, therefore, it deserves a station.


Agreed, Irun is a better place for an HSR station than Hendaye. I think both the TGV and TER should be extended to San Sebastián with a stop in Irun. It looks Irun will already be used as terminus for Spanish high-speed services, due to lack of space in San Sebastián to terminate everything there.


----------



## alserrod

AlbertJP said:


> True, the bus is the most used mode of transport for long-ish distances around the north coast and to the French Basque Country.
> 
> Agreed, Irun is a better place for an HSR station than Hendaye. I think both the TGV and TER should be extended to San Sebastián with a stop in Irun. It looks Irun will already be used as terminus for Spanish high-speed services, due to lack of space in San Sebastián to terminate everything there.



May they will use current lines, it doesn't matter even if both stations are used due to train runs so slowly there....
May we are talking about, in the future, a HSL station in the area, it really doesn't mind exact location. Maybe easier around Irun, but it is not so important.

Irun is 65.000 people town (plus villages and other towns around) and it has its own traffic. It is not a small town indeed.

I remember using a TGV Paris-Irun and... may I wanted to move to a new train, destination Irun. May I had a relative who was going to look for me by car, destination Hendaye.
Reason?, just have a look how to reach, coming from N-121 (national road besides border) and arriving to Hendaye station (just crossing border and stopping) or to Irun station (a nightmare in city centre).
And they are really so close....


----------



## TER200

Henk Angenent said:


> There should also be 10 tricurrent Euroduplex trains specifically built for operation within Spain right? They are now used mostly for the service to Barcelona.


No, they don't run under 3 kV*, like Renfe's AVE sets.
I don't know if the current TGV Euroduplex used in Spain (there are more than 10 now, as some domestic sets have been adapted for the new Ouigo España services) can be adapted for 3 kV, but they were not prepared for that (they can get the 15 kV 16,7 Hz for Germany/Switzerland if needed).

The TGVs used to Belgium and Italy, adapted for 3 kV, are old and do not comply with TSI.

New TGV M trains, entering service from 2024, might be compatible for Spain also but I have no information.


* They are called "3UH", meaning "3 voltages, Hispanic", but the third voltage is the 15 kV 16,7 Hz, that is deactivated.


----------



## 437.001

Henk Angenent said:


> Thanks! Yeah, I wasn't counting on HSR between San Sebastian and Hendaye, but dual gauge should already improve things quite a bit. It's a very short stretch to the French border anyway, so I'm not sure HSR would mean much difference.


The difference would be the ability to get off the train straight in the middle of San Sebastian, or, like now, having to get off at Irun/Hendaye and then take the Topo (from Hendaye), or the Topo or Cercanías (from Irun).
Getting off at San Sebastian would just be more convenient... if that is your destination.
But there's also a lot of people living between San Sebastian and Irun (Pasaia, Renteria, Oiartzun, Lezo...), and these people will keep on using the Topo or the Cercanías.



Henk Angenent said:


> There should also be 10 tricurrent Euroduplex trains specifically built for operation within Spain right? They are now used mostly for the service to Barcelona.


  ... I think the TGV's that go to Barcelona are only able for 1.5kV/25kV (hence not able to run under 3kV)?
That's why I said it should better be TGV's that are able to enter Belgium, because those are also able to run under 3kV, and besides, usually the Basque Country (and all of the Northern Atlantic Spanish coast) is just about as hot as Belgium, Normandy, Brittany or Britain, so there's not a real need to have the air conditioning adapted for the really hot Mediterranean Spain and Central Spain weather.

That said, if they planned to create TGV services that went further south beyond Vitoria, then the "Spanish-adapted" air conditioning would be compulsory.



AlbertJP said:


> On Hendaye-San Sebastián there is not much to gain.


Indeed, not much...



Henk Angenent said:


> Well, I'm hoping at least some Paris-Hendaye services will be extended to Bilbao, and not only to San Sebastian (where the gains are less significant indeed because there is a metro service between Hendaye and San Sebastian). Paris-Bilbao is currently extremely unpractical by train, but should be very comfortable and fast once the Basque Y is complete.


The big winner out of the Basque Y will be Bilbao.
Vitoria and San Sebastian/Irun will be benefitted a lot too, but a bit less so.

Bilbao, because it has always had horrible rail connections to pretty much everywhere, so it really needs to improve its connections towards everywhere:
a) northbound to San Sebastian/Bordeaux/Paris (and also further away than Paris if possible).
b) southeastbound to Vitoria/Pamplona/Logroño/Zaragoza/Tarragona/Barcelona/Valencia (and probably also Alicante).
c) southwestbound to Vitoria/Burgos/Valladolid/Galicia/Madrid/Andalusia/Lisbon.
The opening of the Basque Y will really be a groundbreaking event for Bilbao.

And Vitoria (which is the capital of the Spanish Basque Country), because it really is one of the fastest-growing cities in the country, and it's among the top 5 cities with the highest quality of life in the whole of Spain.
Vitoria already has half-decent travel times to the rest of Spain (Galicia excepted), its main problem is its horrendous intra-Basque travel times, which make Basques use the car and the bus much more than it is desirable.
And as Vitoria-Hendaye still takes really a lot, the Basque Y will really improve travel times between Vitoria and France, be them direct or with a change at San Sebastian, Irun or Hendaye.
So Vitoria will be the second biggest winner of the Basque Y.

Lastly, San Sebastian and Irun will be benefitted too, and not a little, but mostly for intra-Spanish and intra-Basque travel.
However, travel between San Sebastian and France, even if not ideal, is not really bad anyway, because there's already the Topo.



Suburbanist said:


> How long would a hypothetical Paris - Madrid train via Bordeaux take when the project is completed?


Not a few minutes.
Forget about anything under 6h30min, and that would be for a fast service which would skip most (or all) stations.
Paris-Madrid is a much longer distance than Paris-Barcelona, even on the straight route via Bordeaux.
I think the bulk of the international passengers will come from Madrid-Bordeaux and Paris-Bilbao, I don't really see many end-to-end passengers.

Bear in mind, too, that right now the HSL on the Spanish side reaches only Burgos (actually Venta de Baños, but the section between Venta de Baños and Burgos is already under test runs, so it shouldn't take long before it opens - even if it IS taking VERY long, but that's another story...).

Then there's the missing section between Burgos and Vitoria, where trains will keep on running on the classic line.
The HSL there might end up being built, but not anytime soon, and there are other priorities right now (Madrid-Toledo-Badajoz-Evora-Lisbon, Orihuela-Murcia-Almeria, Leon-Asturias, Valencia-Alicante...).

And there's also the missing section between Astigarraga (just south of San Sebastian) and Bordeaux (the HSL should be extended from Bordeaux to Dax, but the date is still unclear, and the French seem to give priority to Bordeaux-Toulouse, which is understandable).



alserrod said:


> Irun and surroundings have more population than Bayonne+Biarritz, [...]


Not in summer! 



AlbertJP said:


> True, the bus is the most used mode of transport for long-ish distances around the north coast and to the French Basque Country.


Blame geography and Spanish stupid decisions about rail gauges.

Because normally there's the more commonly known mistake of using the Iberian gauge instead of the standard gauge, which has costed Spain dearly, exports-wise (and also did hit Portugal by ricochet - the Portuguese had to readapt their network to Iberian gauge, since they started building it in standard gauge...  ).

But not less damaging, yet much less known, was the decision of the Spanish authorities to allow the construction of railways in northern Spain in metric gauge "because it's cheaper".
Right now the metric gauge network in Northern Spain... it's absolutely fabulous for the trainspotters and railway aficionados, and those lines are really beautiful... but practical they aren't, at all.
They made Spanish exports from its then-industrial north (Basque Country, Asturias, Palencia, Leon, Cantabria) more complicated. In fact, Asturias, one of the richest Spanish regions in the past, has not recovered economically yet, and partly, that's because of its poor rail connections along the coast.
The case of Palencia and Leon is even worse, with some of those regions now becoming literally empty.



AlbertJP said:


> Agreed, Irun is a better place for an HSR station than Hendaye. [...] It looks Irun will already be used as terminus for Spanish high-speed services, due to lack of space in San Sebastián to terminate everything there.


Actually Irun/Hendaye has always been the terminus for long-distance Spanish trains, since day one of railways.
San Sebastian station is beautiful, but small, the big railway facilities have always been at Irun, since forever.



AlbertJP said:


> I think both the TGV and TER should be extended to San Sebastián with a stop in Irun.


I'd extend the TGV to Bilbao (not just San Sebastian). Or the AVE to Bordeaux. Or both.
There's still a lot of time to think about that.

As for commuter services, I'd rather extend the Cercanías from Irun to Bayonne (and not the other way around).
That would require a full gauge change on the Spanish side, but it would be for the better.
I said Cercanías because what's actually needed in the area between San Sebastian and Bayonne is something more like an RER than like a TER.
And as the Cercanías trains on the Spanish side continue south of San Sebastian towards Tolosa, Beasain, Zumarraga and Brinkola, I think it would make more sense to let them continue eastbound to Bayonne.

I think a TER would make more sense on the Mediterranean border instead, as it's less populated than the Atlantic border.
On Narbonne-Perpignan-Cerbère/Portbou-Figueres a cross-border TER would be rather welcome.
Besides, it would be the most windy TER in the world.


----------



## AlbertJP

The Cercanías will stay on broad gauge for the moment. It shares the route south of San Sebastián with broad gauge freight, and there are no plans to adapt the platforms of intermediate stations between San Sebastián and Irun to standard gauge trains (they will have a larger gap to the platform as the 3rd rail is being laid on the platform side of the track.) So you'll get the current service and on top of that some standard gauge services calling only at San Sebastián and Irun, because those are the stations in Spain with platforms for standard gauge trains planned.


----------



## alserrod

Regarding Bilbao, just take a look that Bilbao-Miranda is 90 km away by motorway and it takes 1h40m for trains with only one intermediate stop.
I agree it will take a great advantage with the Basque Y


----------



## 437.001

NCT said:


> How do 'time cushions' work in Spain?
> 
> In Britain there are established methods for calculating sectional running times which are based on permitted line speeds with generally very little room for interpretation. In timetabling station dwells are usually on the tight side and performance times put in sparingly. Pathing times are generally as a result of timetabling imperfections rather than consciously put in as cushions.


In Spain they're merely set as long dwelling times at stations.

Firstly, remember that in Spain most lines are less busy than in Britain, so there's more "room for breathing".
The two busiest sections of HSL are Barcelona Sants to Camp de Tarragona, and Madrid Atocha to the Torrejon de Velasco junction, and they're rather busy, but not yet to the level of Paris-Lyon.

Most AVE services are perfectly on time, but Renfe set that policy of "refund if 5min late", so they set up those "time cushions" to pay less refunds, the bxstxrds. 😅
Firstly only on AVE, then they extended that to other long-distance services.
It doesn't apply on international services, though.

However, on Alvia, Intercity, Euromed, and other long-distance services which use gauge changers or which run end to end on classic lines, the coincidence with freight and regional and commuter rail, the existence of level crossings, coupled with the generally more ageing infrastructure and signalling, makes those services more prone to delays.
So it's these trains the ones to take advantage of the "time cushions" the most, as delays are much more common on classic lines.
This does not mean that they're always delayed, thankfully.

But thanks to them, every now and then it happens that a train manages to overcome a seemingly insurmountable delay.
It may arrive late or even very late to some intermediate stations, but thanks to the "time cushions", at the end of the trip it manages to overcome it.



NCT said:


> It's only on high-speed line where there's a distinction between planning top speed and permissible maximum speed under late running - the only true application of 'cushion' in the UK.


By "on high.speed line" you mean strictly on HS1, or do you also include ECML, GWML, WCML, and MML?


----------



## Stuu

Sunfuns said:


> It's a pity Renfe doesn't like these kinds of solutions much...


Given they used to deny the possibility of journeys which involve a change of train, that's not really a surprise


----------



## NCT

Stuu said:


> That's not right, there is a lot of work which goes into providing sensible pathing allowances - Long distance trains have pathing allowances added as a matter of course, this is a train from this evening at my local station, underneatha number of the locations you can see the pathing and engineering allowances
> View attachment 1923710
> 
> 
> There are pathing and engineering allowances all through the journey, they are put in to allow trains to catch up to time. When I used to catch the train home from work, it was common for it to leave Birmingham up to 10 minutes late and be on time at Bristol because of the pathing allowances in the timetable.


No, engineering, pathing and performance times have specific meanings. Engineering times are for when there are for example (long term) temporary speed restrictions, and pathing time is by definition forced, following a slow train or waiting for a gap at a junction. ‘Put in to allow trains to catch up to time’ is the definition of performance time, and there’s very little of that.


----------



## Stuu

NCT said:


> No, engineering, pathing and performance times have specific meanings. Engineering times are for when there are for example (long term) temporary speed restrictions, and pathing time is by definition forced, following a slow train or waiting for a gap at a junction. ‘Put in to allow trains to catch up to time’ is the definition of performance time, and there’s very little of that.


Compare the time from a station into a terminus. Random examples that I have quickly checked: Reading-Paddington 5 minutes slower inbound; Clapham Junction-Waterloo, 5 minutes slower inbound. Why is that?


----------



## AlbertJP

Because all the time allowance is put at the end of the route.

Early arrival at a terminus is not a problem, early departure from an intermediate station is.


----------



## Suburbanist

In Switzerland, schedule padding is done with slower in-transit speeds, instead of longer station dwelling times. Many Swiss routes run below the maximum operational speed of the tracks trains use.


----------



## NCT

Stuu said:


> Compare the time from a station into a terminus. Random examples that I have quickly checked: Reading-Paddington 5 minutes slower inbound; Clapham Junction-Waterloo, 5 minutes slower inbound. Why is that?


Which trains did you look at? And were you looking at like-for-like trains (i.e. fast trains vs fast trains, same stopping patterns etc).

Only looked at a small number of trains myself, but I don't see this 5-minute difference apart from maybe very isolated cases.

Normally trains approaching a buffer stop are slower than trains departing from one, and this is reflected in the sectional running times, but differences are seldom more than 1 minute. Sometimes on the approach you have to wait for a train to get out before you have a route in, and in these cases the pathing time is legit. 

There are a couple of instances of something waiting 3.5 minutes outside Portobello Junction - they feel legit - genuine infrastructure constraint (or sometimes bad timetabling).


----------



## AlbertJP

Assuming you mean Portobello Junction, Edinburgh; the time allowance is probably put there instead of at nearby Waverley station to make sure that trains arrive into the station in the correct order. Otherwise an early fast train from Newcastle might pass Portobello just ahead of an empty stock or Borders railway train and generate a platforming conflict.

We're digressing though, this is the topic about HSR in Spain.


----------



## NCT

AlbertJP said:


> Assuming you mean Portobello Junction, Edinburgh; the time allowance is probably put there instead of at nearby Waverley station to make sure that trains arrive into the station in the correct order. Otherwise an early fast train from Newcastle might pass Portobello just ahead of an empty stock or Borders railway train and generate a platforming conflict.
> 
> We're digressing though, this is the topic about HSR in Spain.


No, Portobello Junction outside of Paddington.


----------



## AlbertJP

Thanks, I didn't know that one. (I was pretty sure that you weren't talking about Portobello Junction, Wolverhampton, so I guessed Edinburgh.) I think the reason is the same though as it's also an exit from a depot close to a main station where sending trains in the wrong order could mess up platforming.


----------



## Coccodrillo

437.001 said:


> It may arrive late or even very late to some intermediate stations, but thanks to the "time cushions", at the end of the trip it manages to overcome it.


So the refunds are given only if the train is 5 minutes late at the last station, but not if it arrives there less than 5' late but more than 5' at an intermediate station?


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> So the refunds are given only if the train is 5 minutes late at the last station, but not if it arrives there less than 5' late but more than 5' at an intermediate station?


Ah, this is a good question.
I don't know, but I'd say refunds are also given for intermediate stations.
However, as final stations tend to be big cities (Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, etc), hence more passengers affected, I guess that in case of delay, Renfe must be prioritizing being on time at the last station(s), where more passengers would get a refund, than at an intermediate one (where not only there usually are a bit less passengers, but it also is more difficult to overcome a delay).


----------



## davide84

...when a tool becomes the goal...

(It's the same in Italy)


----------



## arctic_carlos

437.001 said:


> Most AVE services are perfectly on time, but Renfe set that policy of "refund if 5min late", so they set up those "time cushions" to pay less refunds, the bxstxrds. 😅
> Firstly only on AVE, then they extended that to other long-distance services.
> It doesn't apply on international services, though.


That policy was changed a few years ago. Here you can check the current one:






Compromiso de puntualidad







www.renfe.com





To sum up:

AVE and Avant trains: 15 minute delay - 50% refund; 30 minute delay - 100% refund
Alvia and Euromed trains: 30 minute delay - 50% refund; 60 minute delay - 100% refund
Avlo and Intercity trains: 60 minute delay - 50% refund; 90 minute delay - 100% refund


----------



## 437.001

*News

Madrid-Barcelona HSL*

AT LAST! *Guadalajara-Yebes station* will get a shuttle bus to Guadalajara centre, and also the Guadalajara Cercanías station.

So it will be possible to take a Cercanías C2 train at, say, Torrejón de Ardoz, alight at Guadalajara, take a bus from there to Guadalajara-Yebes station, then hop into an AVE bound for Barcelona, Zaragoza, Huesca, Figueres (and pre-Covid, also Marseille), or an Alvia bound for Logroño or Pamplona.

Not a lot of buses, but at least that's something.


----------



## Suburbanist

437.001 said:


> *News
> 
> Madrid-Barcelona HSL*
> 
> AT LAST! *Guadalajara-Yebes station* will get a shuttle bus to Guadalajara centre, and also the Guadalajara Cercanías station.
> 
> So it will be possible to take a Cercanías C2 train at, say, Torrejón de Ardoz, alight at Guadalajara, take a bus from there to Guadalajara-Yebes station, then hop into an AVE bound for Barcelona, Zaragoza, Huesca, Figueres (and pre-Covid, also Marseille), or an Alvia bound for Logroño or Pamplona.
> 
> Not a lot of buses, but at least that's something.


Any plans for a rail connection?


----------



## arctic_carlos

Suburbanist said:


> Any plans for a rail connection?


No. There’s a 300m gradient in the 10 km between Guadalajara commuter rail station and the HSR station, through mostly undeveloped land. Its potential demand doesn’t justify the high investment required for such connection.


----------



## Suburbanist

arctic_carlos said:


> No. There’s a 300m gradient in the 10 km between Guadalajara commuter rail station and the HSR station, through mostly undeveloped land. Its potential demand doesn’t justify the high investment required for such connection.


A people mover then?


----------



## Eloi von Grauwolf

Suburbanist said:


> A people mover then?


A bus moving people.


----------



## Suburbanist

Eloi von Grauwolf said:


> A bus moving people.


Buses are outdated and not yet possible to automate.


----------



## 437.001

And here it is in Spain (at Llers, next to Figueres-Vilafant station).
It's been assigned the class number 109.

*Jordi Verdugo en Twitter: "¡Pues ya la tenemos aquí! Preciosa unidad, qué ganas de verla en unos meses en servicio para hacerle mejores fotos  https://t.co/4HInXJaEVf" / Twitter*


----------



## 437.001

*News

Madrid-Galicia HSL*

According to the following article in Spanish...

*Escenario de alta velocidad: ocho Alvias a Madrid y dos AVE desde Ourense que llegarían a Alicante (lavozdegalicia.es)*
Which contains this graphic: *gg13p8g1-01.jpg (1155×1200) (avoz.es)*

The current Renfe plan would be as follows.
As a reference, AVE has a top speed of 300km/h, Alvia has a top speed of 250km/h.
All the travel times given are best case scenarios, there's no detail of stopping patterns.
This is just a press article, not a Renfe official press release, so there might be alterations.

-*2 AVE Ourense-Madrid Chamartin-Alicante* (Ourense-Alicante 4h46min).

-*1 Alvia Ferrol-Coruña-Madrid Chamartin* (Ferrol-Madrid Chamartin 5h15min).

-*1 Alvia Lugo-Ourense-Madrid Chamartin* (Lugo-Madrid Chamartin 4h25min).

-*2 Alvia Coruña-Madrid Chamartin* (4h).

-*3 Alvia Vigo Urzaiz-Madrid Chamartin* via the Conxo chord (4h15min).

-*1 Alvia Pontevedra-Vilagarcia-Santiago-Madrid Chamartin* (Pontevedra-Madrid Chamartin 4h).

🔼 🔼 🔼
Ourense-Alicante in just 4h46min is simply astounding.
This travel time has been calculated taking into account the benefits of the opening of the sections Pedralba-Taboadela (Madrid-Galicia HSL) and Madrid Chamartin-Torrejón de Velasco (Madrid-Valencia HSL).

Number of services could of course increase as the demand and number of trains available increased.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Rolling stock*

Images of a *class 107* trainset, without its locomotives (class 252 instead).

jotaerre 🇪🇸 en Twitter: "Segunda rama de la serie 107 (sin sus cabezas motrices) a lasalida de Burgos. 16-06-2021. Lleva en cabeza y en cola sendas 252 @renfe @renfeleaks El anterior tuit lo he borrado por ser erróneo que fuese la primera rama. https://t.co/hZBJy5VRBZ" / Twitter

According to this next Gusiluz tweet, it looks like class 107 will have LZB, so it's very likely that they'll be used on services to Cadiz.

Gusiluz en Twitter: "En el Vía Libre de verano hay un artículo sobre la S-107 Aparte de lo conocido, explican que van a emplear 24 remolques extremo de la transformación de 130 a 730 más un coche Cafetería, imagino que alguno accidentado. No hay nuevos. Y (a diferencia de los 106) tendrán LZB." / Twitter

============================

On another note, it seems there already are 14 *class 106* trains at La Sagra depot, awaiting homologation.

============================

According to this article...

*Renfe reformará las series 130 y 730, que ofrecerán WiFi - Trenvista*

...Alvia trains *class 130 and 730* are being upgraded, with, among other things, WiFi.
First trains to be ready by the end of 2021, the upgrade process will last until 2024, it seems.

============================

And lastly, a curiosity that some of you may know.
There is one class 100 trainset which has one of the locomotives which is different.
This is trainset nº12. But it wasn't like this in the beginning, it used to be the trainset nº19.
For some reason, trains 12 and 19 interchanged their locos when train nº19 was modified to be able to run in France.
Nº19 is an ex-class 101 (original Euromed), and had one of its locos changed after the Torredembarra rail crash of 2002.



foxspain said:


>


----------



## 33Hz

^ so they built a modern one-off TGV power car for use in Spain? Any lessons learnt that could be applied to other series of modern TGV to continue past Barcelona?


----------



## 437.001

33Hz said:


> so they built a modern one-off TGV power car for use in Spain?


No, not really.
It's just that the body of the engine was so badly damaged after the crash that it was unusable, so they had to get a new body.
As Alstom didn't build TGV-Atlantique-like locos anymore, they went for a TGV-Duplex one.


----------



## M-NL

But are you saying that there is one trainset that has an older square style power car on one end and the newer rounded style on the other end? Or did they change both power cars?


----------



## parrocho

M-NL said:


> But are you saying that there is one trainset that has an older square style power car on one end and the newer rounded style on the other end? Or did they change both power cars?






Different engines


----------



## 437.001

M-NL said:


> But are you saying that there is one trainset that has an older square style power car on one end and the newer rounded style on the other end? Or did they change both power cars?


They changed the body (not the engine) of only one, the other was left more or less unscathed, so it was retained.



parrocho said:


> Different engines


Not quite - different-looking engines. Inside they're identical, outside they're different.


----------



## M-NL

So the power car is just the old model with a esthetic face lift.
It's these weird anomalies that train fans like. In Japan it's quite normal to have trains with different ends. But that was intended from the start, this wasn't.
Makes you wonder if it is possible to swap different generation power cars on TGVs. We all know they can couple, but can the different models coexist in the same trainset?
On an ICE1/2 you can interchange any ICE1 and ICE2 power car, as long as you realise that only ICE2 power cars have bow doors with automatic couplers.


----------



## AlbertJP

On TGVs this has certainly happened as well, for instance the TGV Réseau Duplex sets with an older power car.


----------



## M-NL

Those sets have the same generation power car on either end. But could a TGV run with different generation power cars on either end?


----------



## Coccodrillo

I don't know, but sometimes an half postal TGV set happened to run alone, that is, with a loco at one end only and a some kind of artisanal bogie at the other (it wasn't a TGV bogie, but a modified Corail one). And not only during special runs to go to a workshop, but in normal service (I suppose these half sets were able to run in just one direction outside stations). Some photos of this oddity can be seen here:






72049 et son demi TGV postal : Matériel thermique


Bonsoir, Aujourd'hui à Montereau, j'ai eu la surprise de voir ce couple: La CC 72049 emmenant une demi rame postale à Romilly Si j'avais eu ...



www.trainsfrancais.com













TGV Postal - Densha Otaku 365　


Ouais, une fois n'est pas coutume, et exceptionnellement, pour ce premier jour d'une nouvelle décennie, je vais consacrer un message rien...



www.denshaotaku365.com







437.001 said:


> For some reason, trains 12 and 19 interchanged their locos when train nº19 was modified to be able to run in France.


Maybe so as to make approval trials and modifications to run in France on only one type of power car, and not two. I understand that only the aesthetic of this power car is different, and not the interior equipment, but bureaucracy can be complex and split two similar trains into two or more different types (that need different tests and paperwork) just because of some small differences.


----------



## TER200

M-NL said:


> Makes you wonder if it is possible to swap different generation power cars on TGVs. We all know they can couple, but can the different models coexist in the same trainset?


Yes and no. 
Réseau and Duplex power cars can be interchanged because they're basically the same technology, but AFAIK they can not be mixed with more modern power cars (with asynchronous motors). Trainset n°255 (Duplex) was operated like this for several years, after one of its power cars burned and was replaced by the remaining power car of Réseau set n°502 (partially destroyed in an accident).
Later it got 2 brand new power cars and became Dasye set n°750 ; there are now 3 spare power cars : the Réseau from set 502, the Duplex from ex-set n°255 and a new-built Euroduplex power car.


----------



## Coccodrillo

The spare Euroduplex powercar is the #310331.

The power cars are numbered 310201 to 310250 (trainsets 801 to 825) and 310301 to 310382 except 310332 (trainsets 836 to 891 except 865).

Basically of trainset #865 they built only one power car, leaving a gap in the sequence of the power cars (which are numbered 1-2 for the first set, 3-4 for the second, and so on) and likely in the sequence of trailer cars.

Apparently SNCF skipped also set numbers 826 to 835, but I don't know why.









TGV 2N2 — Wikipédia







fr.wikipedia.org







http://www.trains-europe.fr/sncf/tgv/2n2_3uf.htm


----------



## TER200

Coccodrillo said:


> Apparently SNCF skipped also set numbers 826 to 835, but I don't know why.


Not really.
801-810 = 3UH, for Spain
811-825 = 3UF, for France only (now some are converted for Ouigo Spain)
and then there are the 3UFC with the new "Océane" interiors, of which originally 40 were ordered : 851-891 (with the numbers not coninuous because it's a slightly different series), but then 15 additional sets were ordered (836-850, because starting from 892 would get them into the #900s), and then again 15 more (826-835 and 892-896).

Sorry for going off-topic.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Valladolid-Leon-Asturias HSL*

First test run on the Pajares tunnels to start on September 20, according to this tweet.

*TPA Noticias en Twitter: "Última hora: El primer viaje en pruebas por la Variante de Payares será el próximo lunes 20 de setiembre. El Ministerio de Transportes y Adif arrancan los viajes en pruebas por el trazado de la alta velocidad entre León y Asturias. https://t.co/eeVgE5EPPJ" / Twitter*


Besides, this next Tuesday will AT LAST, see the opening of the new underground through platform at Leon station, which will allow the end of the reversals at Leon, at least for trains to/from Asturias (not sure about the ones to/from Ponferrada/Galicia). In the case of trains Madrid-Asturias, the time savings could be of 25 minutes, all according to this article.

*El viaje en tren Asturias-Madrid se reducirá en veinticinco minutos a partir del martes | El Comercio *


----------



## 437.001

*News

Valladolid-Leon-Asturias HSL*



437.001 said:


> First test run on the Pajares tunnels to start on September 20, according to this tweet.
> 
> *TPA Noticias en Twitter: "Última hora: El primer viaje en pruebas por la Variante de Payares será el próximo lunes 20 de setiembre. El Ministerio de Transportes y Adif arrancan los viajes en pruebas por el trazado de la alta velocidad entre León y Asturias. https://t.co/eeVgE5EPPJ" / Twitter*


First test runs on the Pajares base tunnels started.



Squad said:


> Salto de gigante para Asturias: el primer tren de pruebas recorre la Variante
> 
> 
> "Las obras de plataforma y electrificación están terminadas y la fase de pruebas acabará en 2022", aseguró la ministra de Transportes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lne.es



========================================



437.001 said:


> Besides, this next Tuesday will AT LAST, see the opening of the new underground through platform at Leon station, which will allow the end of the reversals at Leon, at least for trains to/from Asturias (not sure about the ones to/from Ponferrada/Galicia). In the case of trains Madrid-Asturias, the time savings could be of 25 minutes, all according to this article.
> 
> *El viaje en tren Asturias-Madrid se reducirá en veinticinco minutos a partir del martes | El Comercio *


It's open now.
An Alvia arriving at the low-level new platform from Gijón, bound for Madrid-Chamartin.







And an official Adif video.


----------



## intersezioni




----------



## Coccodrillo

A few questions/notes:

1) It is only the Pajares base tunnel being tested, right? So there are still a few years left before the line can be used, right?

2) Spain is notorious for oversized infrastructure (= much more capacity than the previsible demand), but only two tracks for the new udnerground station in Leon seems too few even to me. Not for today's traffic, but for the future. For example, 3 or 4 tracks might be useful to offer both a cross-platform interchange (in both directions) between a Gijón-Madrid, a Vigo-Bilbao, and a third train on another track. Let's forget that the two tracks are each in a different gauge, for now.

3) There will soon be a lot of trains between Madrid and Barcelona. I wonder if there is enough demand for all of them. I would't bet that all these trains will still run in a few years from now. Actually, I wouldn't invest a single cent in a passenger train operator as a private citizen, and in fact, most "private" passenger operators in Europe (both open access and winning a PSO contract) are public operators of another European state.


----------



## gincan

Man, they really got shafted in León, even Logroño got a 4 track through station, it will be intresting how they will handle a train breaking down in the station. I foresee long delays if the station will have to operate with only 1 platform, the backup with only 2 usable tracks (assuming they aren't occupied) for long trains having to do the detour, seems like a really low budget solution.


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> The same is true for the Barcelona and Madrid railway, it is not only for trains between Barcelona and Madrid. *It will* also connect Barcelona to all of the Iberian peninsula *with a few exceptions (mediterranean coast and basque coutry)*.


Ermm...  ...the Barcelona-Valencia fast trains (Euromed/Intercity) use the Madrid-Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, and the Barcelona-Basque Country fast trains (Alvia/Intercity) use the Madrid-Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Zaragoza.
And it's not an "it will", it's a "it does", as those services already exist (the Barcelona-Basque Country ones have been running for more than ten years now).

So... no exceptions, other than Barcelona-Extremadura-Lisbon... and because that HSL is not finished yet, and it's still unclear which rolling stock will run on Barcelona-Lisbon (Barcelona-Extremadura will be done with anything available that's able to reach 300km/h).



gincan said:


> It will also be used by international trains to/from Madrid.


It was being used by international trains to/from Madrid... pre-pandemic.
Right now the Madrid-Marseille AVE isn't running yet, but its reintroduction is not to be discarded, as far as I'm aware.



gincan said:


> Just like how it is envisioned with trains splitting north of Birmingham, the same will happened in Spain, you will have 400 meter trains doing Barcelona Cordoba and then splitt there in to two trains to Seville, Malaga and Granda.


This is already the case, gincan.



gincan said:


> And the same in the other direction towards Galicia and Asturias.


I'm not so sure on this one yet, as that needs the physical connection between the Madrid-Barcelona and Madrid-Valencia HSL's. But it's planned, of course, only that it won't happen tomorrow.

But pre-pandemic, the Alvias from Barcelona to the Basque Country used to split at Castejón de Ebro station (in Navarre), at least for the Barcelona-Bilbao and Barcelona-Irun services.



gincan said:


> With the ridiculous ticket prices offered by Renfe in the past it made no sense to run long distance destinations with HSR, demand just wasn't there. With low cost trains like Ouigo, even if the journey is 3-4 hours longer, Ryanair or Vueling have no hope of competing with ticket prices that could be 15 to 20 euro between Barcelona and Seville or La Coruña.


Renfe is also offering low-cost services, gincan, they're called AVLO.


----------



## Sunfuns

Am I wrong saying that HSR tickets in Spain are the 2nd cheapest in Europe per distance traveled only behind Italy? That's before any low cost franchises came around.


----------



## Sunfuns

Double post...


----------



## gincan

> 437.001
> Ermm...  ...the Barcelona-Valencia fast trains (Euromed/Intercity) use the Madrid-Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, and the Barcelona-Basque Country fast trains (Alvia/Intercity) use the Madrid-Barcelona HSL between Barcelona and Zaragoza.
> And it's not an "it will", it's a "it does", as those services already exist (the Barcelona-Basque Country ones have been running for more than ten years now).


I was refering to *H*igh *S*peed *R*ail, not trains that run on railways with a top speed of 140-160kmh. Tarragona-Valencia is mostly 200km/h or slower. Not HSR as I define it. Zaragoza-Pamplona/Logroño is 160 km/h and even slower beyond. 



> 437.001
> This is already the case, gincan.


I'm talking about *low cost* high frequency services. What Renfe offer today is overpriced garbage. Barcelona to Malaga tomorrow is 113 euro one way with Renfe, it is 15 euro with Ryan Air. Only a lunatic use the train today.



> 437.001
> Renfe is also offering low-cost services, gincan, they're called AVLO.


AVLO is only available between Madrid and Barcelona. On any other route you have to contend with RENFE overpriced services.


----------



## 437.001

*News 

Madrid-Galicia HSL*

According to the following article...

*Las pruebas del AVE en Zamora para inaugurarlo el 18 de diciembre, en marcha - La Opinión de Zamora (laopiniondezamora.es)*

...the next section of the Madrid-Galicia HSL, between Pedralba and Taboadela, including the new HSL station of A Gudiña-Porta de Galicia (which won't be very far from the Portuguese city of Chaves), would open on December 18 2021.
The date is believable, however, this is a press article, so, as usual, any change may still happen.

With that, the high-speed line to Galicia would be as good as finished.
The remaining parts (Olmedo chord, Taboadela-Ourense, double tracking of some sections) would give very little improvement in travel time (Taboadela-Ourense, double-trackings), or are not meant to link Madrid to Galicia, and anyway they're delayed (the Olmedo chord would be useful for trains linking Galicia to Valladolid and the Basque Country, the rest of high-speed radial or diametral services from Galicia will run via Madrid, such as Barcelona, Valencia, Alicante, Seville, etc. Not because it's Madrid, but because it's the shorter way as it's the geographical centre of the country, and/or the faster way as it will link with other existing high-speed lines).

Other further developments (new HSL Ourense-Vigo or Ourense-Pontevedra, Zamora by-pass), should come at a later, still undefined date, and keeping in mind that they can't be a priority since Adif and the ministry still have many other lines under construction, and the bulk of the Madrid-Galicia HSL, the most expensive of all the high-speed lines in Spain, is as good as finished.


----------



## Gusiluz

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455109988565897218


----------



## Reivajar

The Zefiro features some visible screws (apart from the "white dots" you mention on Twitter). Just for comparing with the Talgo Avril. 😂


----------



## Aránimas

Awesome photo. Historical and powefull. Not because of the image itself, but because of what it represents. A new era in the spanish railway. Chills.


----------



## JumpUp

Dear Spanish-Railfriends,

I am very looking forward to the upcoming opening of the "Ourense (Taboadela) - Sanabria AV" High-Speed Rail on a few weeks.
But what will happen to the old mountainous (scenic) classic rail that trains use nowadays? It's one-track without electrification! - I fear that it will be shut down and dismantled because there are NO local trains.

And what's the future of the mountainous section south of Sanabria on the old-classic line "Puebla de Sanabria - Zamora"? There is only ONE train-pair today on that line, all faster trains use the new high-speed-rail. Will that line survive? I don't think one train-pair a day is economically attractive for anybody.


----------



## parrocho

The Padornelo tunnel on the classic line needs to be upgraded on order to be used by the second track of the HSL


----------



## AlbertJP

If the new line is built to standard gauge, the old line might continue to see Iberian gauge freight trains, if there are any.


----------



## Coccodrillo

parrocho said:


> The Padornelo tunnel on the classic line needs to be upgraded on order to be used by the second track of the HSL


How? This situation is likely an oddity in the rail world. There are cases of (semi-)HSLs built by mixing existing and new railway sections, but this the first HSL I know that has one track on a new alignment and the other track in an existing tunnel. I suppose that the Padornelo tunnel will/would get a single double gauge track, as even if (IIRC) it is built as a double track tunnel, the two tracks would have a too small loading gauge for modern standards.


----------



## AlbertJP

You can see a track diagram here (scroll down to the second diagram) showing a temporary situation where the south/west bore of the tunnel is used for the old railway but has sleepers for third rail (_traviesas polivalentes_). The author of that page is an SSC member who is usually well informed. Presumably this will be the first stage of opening the high speed line.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Thank you. But _traviesas polivalentes_ means 1435 OR 1668, not 1435 AND 1668!

I would like to travel a first and likely last time on the old Medina-Ourense railway. However I doubt I will be able to, as it might close forever within a month and I fear there is still tons of more or less useless bureaucracy to enter Spain, especially as a tourist (even if vaccinated).


----------



## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> I would like to travel a first and likely last time on the old Medina-Ourense railway. However I doubt I will be able to, as it might close forever within a month and I fear there is still tons of more or less useless bureaucracy to enter Spain, especially as a tourist (even if vaccinated).


Dunno. I'm spotting Swiss cars here and there (just not TI or GR yet).
It mustn't be that difficult.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Madrid Chamartin-Madrid Atocha-Torrejón de Velasco HSL*

Just look at what has been spotted testing at Madrid-Chamartin station (clicky, clicky...). 



AlecC281 said:


> View attachment 2291716


----------



## 437.001

*News

Basque Y HSL (Vitoria <> Bilbao <> San Sebastian <> Vitoria)*

By clicking on the next tweet:

*David Azcárate en Twitter: "Elorrio, avance de las obras de la Y vasca, cc @Adif_es @ETS_RFV @johnygrey @LolaOrtizSanch2 @vyepesp https://t.co/Nl6ekD32gH" / Twitter*

* 🔼 🔼 🔼 *
...you'll see a picture of a viaduct under construction near Elorrio, in Biscay.
That's between the Y itself (which is around Bergara) and Bilbao.


----------



## Reivajar

Coccodrillo said:


> Thank you. But _traviesas polivalentes_ means 1435 OR 1668, not 1435 AND 1668!
> 
> I would like to travel a first and likely last time on the old Medina-Ourense railway. However I doubt I will be able to, as it might close forever within a month and I fear there is still tons of more or less useless bureaucracy to enter Spain, especially as a tourist (even if vaccinated).





437.001 said:


> Dunno. I'm spotting Swiss cars here and there (just not TI or GR yet).
> It mustn't be that difficult.


If you get vaccinated (2 weeks after your second dose or complete vaccination), or got a PCR test, you just need to fill out the Spain Health Travel form. And that's it. Quite similar to what you need if you travel to Switzerland. COVID certificates from the EU and Switzerland are compatible.


----------



## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> Thank you. But _traviesas polivalentes_ means 1435 OR 1668, not 1435 AND 1668!
> 
> I would like to travel a first and likely last time on the old Medina-Ourense railway. However I doubt I will be able to, as it might close forever within a month and I fear there is still tons of more or less useless bureaucracy to enter Spain, especially as a tourist (even if vaccinated).



It is enough to have a vaccination certificate delivered at least 10 days before your arrival. May you arrive by train, the same certificate will fit in Spain and France for instance.
Travelling by plane, for sure it will be requested. Travelling by train or by car... it depends, but it is mandatory to have it.

Never mind, in last summer, lots of tourists arrived, thus no such problem.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Madrid-Galicia HSL*

Here's a sketch of the proposed service for when Pedralba-Taboadela opens, on December 21.
They could change, though, it's just a sketch for now.
But at least you can have an idea of the stopping patterns and travel times.
One thing I do not like a lot is that most trains are skipping Segovia, which isn't very good for passengers heading to the Basque County or Burgos (for Valladolid they will use Medina station anyway)... or Segovia itself, which is rather touristy.

Source: * El tren AVE a Galicia por Zamora se estrena el 21 de diciembre - La Opinión de Zamora (laopiniondezamora.es) 








*


----------



## cheehg

TER200 said:


> Spain and France are very similar in population density and distirbution (the latter is just a bit less mountainous). And french people don't like connections either, that's why mmany medium-sized cities have a handful of odd direct TGV connections to Paris.
> However it's still very common to see dozens of people transferring between a regional train and a TGV in major stations, and many people also transfer between two Paris' stations to go from one side of the country to the other (even though this connection is much more difficult than in Madrid where most trains serve Atocha). The connections are often badly timed (there is no system-wide timing system like in Switzerland) however when it works, it largely helps increasing patronage on both long-distance and regional services at a very low cost (SNCF needs to provide solutions if the connection fails due to a delay, but it doesn't seem very problematic).


Yes. In France, the services from one city to another city if they are not in the same route to Paris are not very frenqant. It is easier to change in Paris but the problem is Paris has many stations for many directions. It is similar in South Korea. Most trains go to Seoul. There are very limited trains between other regions. In Madrid, the HS services to west and north parts are from another station. The countries have regular transfering system like to have a main station. In Germany they call it main station HB. It is the same for Japan and Swiss.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> And there aren't.
> You probably wanted a long-distance ticket out of a regional ticket machine...


Why do you have different machines for regional and long distance trains? Does not make sense. 




> Why going to Vilagarcía to Coruña and taking a Trenhotel from there to Barcelona, when going to Santiago to interchange to an Alvia to Madrid (if no available direct trains to Madrid from Vilagarcía itself because of inconvenient time or full train, that is), and then an interchange at Madrid between the Alvia from Galicia and an AVE to Barcelona, takes much shorter?
> 
> Because that's what most people do now...
> 
> Oops! Did I say "interchange"? 😶


Apart from the fact that I do not see RENFE selling a ticket with more than one change (let alone three) there was the fact that I wanted to arrive in Barcelona in the morning to continue to Switzerland.
(The fact that there are only a handful of trains across that brand new line to France is another way in which RENFE and SNCF fail bigly…)


----------



## AlbertJP

K_ said:


> Why do you have different machines for regional and long distance trains? Does not make sense.


So does France. The regional machines allow you to quickly buy a ticket to a destination, that can be used on any regional train. On the long distance machine you have to choose a connection and get seats booked. It is a much longer process and it doesn't make sense to go through all of this if you just want a regional ticket to a station nearby.

(The funny thing is, regional trains are also offered in the long-distance ticket machines in France, sometimes at cheaper rates. This will get you a ticket that can be used on one specific train only, just like for long-distance trains. I have once bought such a ticket 10 minutes before departure, apparently so few people had "booked a seat" on this regional train that the saver fares were still there at the time.)


----------



## TER200

AlbertJP said:


> So does France. The regional machines allow you to quickly buy a ticket to a destination


Ours are technically obsolete, and have horrible ergonomics so it's not really fast to use.



AlbertJP said:


> (The funny thing is, regional trains are also offered in the long-distance ticket machines in France, *sometimes at cheaper rates*. This will get you a ticket that can be used on one specific train only, just like for long-distance trains. I have once bought such a ticket 10 minutes before departure, apparently so few people had "booked a seat" on this regional train that the saver fares were still there at the time.)


Regional fares are a bit messy now, with each region having different politics...
What you point here is due, I think, to the fact that on the regional machines you must know which fare type you want beforehand, while the more modern long-distance machines (and the online apps) will suggest you the cheapest fare and the other options (refundable, etc...) after selecting your trip.

Anyway, I think DB's ticket machines show it it possible to make "universal" ticket machines that are efficient for all trips.
I hope when our current machines need replacement they make something like this, it would save costs also (especially now that cardborad ticket aren't really needed any more, with QR codes being used for both regional and long-distance tickets everything can be printed on a small paper).


Does the Spanish system require to print ticket of different formats for regional and long-distance trains ?


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> Why do you have different machines for regional and long distance trains? Does not make sense.


Well, if there's a station with regional trains only, there's little sense in keeping a long-distance ticket machine and a regional ticket machine, plus a manned ticket counter.

But like I already said, this has now changed at Vilagarcía de Arousa station, which now has Alvia services to/from Madrid calling there.
So probably now there is a long-distance ticket machine, too.
I can't confirm that, though.

If there Renfe does not sell tickets with more than one interchange, perhaps that is because those are not very common, thanks to the Combinado Cercanías, a facility that makes commuter trains free of charge for passengers changing to/from long-distance trains.
And there also are online sales.
You can buy your own tickets online, and then print them (or not, and just keep them on your phone)...


----------



## alserrod

437.001 said:


> Why going to Vilagarcía to Coruña and taking a Trenhotel from there to Barcelona, when going to Santiago to interchange to an Alvia to Madrid (if no available direct trains to Madrid from Vilagarcía itself because of inconvenient time or full train, that is), and then an interchange at Madrid between the Alvia from Galicia and an AVE to Barcelona, takes much shorter?


I bet it was before 2012. Trains from Barcelona to La Coruña where detoured in Monforte via Lugo instead of Orense via Santiago. Even day train and night train

It was with HSL Orense-Santiago-La Coruña when they started to go via Orense. Therefore, Santiago didn't have direct train to Barcelona and Lugo did




K_ said:


> Why do you have different machines for regional and long distance trains? Does not make sense.


True!!. A lot of Renfe issues doesn't have any sense.
In Spain, long distance, regional and commuter seems to be in different universes.
Several decades ago, high speed trains and non high speed trains in long distance where also in different universes.

When you buy a long distance ticket you are buying for the train A in de date D from X to Z, coach C, seat S. Nevermind if online, machine or stations

When you buy a regional ticket, sometimes it has a seat but machines just sell tickets. You have origin, destination, price and date of selling.
Therefore, it is supposed to travel the same day you have bought it or you may stamp your ticket in the station. May you get in without staff station, you may warn conductor.
And yeah, may you travel the same day and conductor doesn't ask you your ticket, you could use it again within 15 days.

As said... a different universe.

Conversely, several stations had, a lot of years ago the "fax-ticket". Stations without a long distance selling system could call another near station to have a ticket. Few people asked it but it was a service. I bought one ticket once. I was coming home on weekend, I had to buy a long distance train for several days later and I had to wait for one hour so I requested it in that station.
It took.... 30 minutes to print my ticket and people of two stations where working on it and sending messages or calls.
As soon as online tickets where available they stopped that kind of service


----------



## M-NL

AlbertJP said:


> The regional machines allow you to quickly buy a ticket to a destination, that can be used on any regional train. On the long distance machine you have to choose a connection and get seats booked. It is a much longer process and it doesn't make sense to go through all of this if you just want a regional ticket to a station nearby.


The Dutch machines show a list of often used destinations on the main screen, along with a button to search for all the other possible destinations. On the other hand the Dutch machines are kind of in the middle between a regional and a full service machine, because you also can't book long distance international trains using this machine nor can you make seat reservations (because that's a concept that doesn't exist for Dutch national trains). But there is no reason you couldn't. There are plenty of examples of ticket machines that can make seat reservations. It uses a display after all.
I think the main reason you can't buy long distance tickets on the regional machines is that they either do not have a connection to the central reservation system or any external connection at all, just to make the machine simpler and cheaper.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> Well, if there's a station with regional trains only, there's little sense in keeping a long-distance ticket machine and a regional ticket machine, plus a manned ticket counter.


Why? Someone who starts a trip at a regional station might want to connect with a long distance train. If it is not possible to buy a ticket from any station to any station from the ticket machine then technically RENFE is even in breach of European passenger rights regulations. 



> But like I already said, this has now changed at Vilagarcía de Arousa station, which now has Alvia services to/from Madrid calling there.
> So probably now there is a long-distance ticket machine, too.
> I can't confirm that, though.


But why should one only be allowed to use the direct Alvia services to go to Madrid? If I book a ticket from Basel to Frankfurt on www.bahn.de the system will not only offer me direct trains, but also all connections.

And RENFE has not concept of network... Why do so fast many trains on the Vigo - A Coruna line miss connections to Ourense (and onwards to Madrid) in Santiago de Compostela by just a few minutes?



> If there Renfe does not sell tickets with more than one interchange, perhaps that is because those are not very common, thanks to the Combinado Cercanías, a facility that makes commuter trains free of charge for passengers changing to/from long-distance trains.


The implementation of that is also broken. You need to go to a Cercanias ticket machine, and enter a code there form your long distance ticket. That adds time to your transfer. In Germany or Switzerland. you can just walk from your ICE to the S-Bahn or regional train (sometimes even cross platform) without fuss via the shortest route.


----------



## 437.001

TER200 said:


> Does the Spanish system require to print ticket of different formats for regional and long-distance trains ?


Yes and no.
If the machine is a commuter rail and/or regional rail machine, it does not print tickets bought online, and does only sell tickets in small format (British Rail style, more or less, exception made of Madrid, where they are of the smaller RATP/Transilien style).

If the machine is a long distance machine, it does print tickets bought online, and it also sells you tickets for a certain amount of regional rail trains (but not all of them, I guess only the public service ones, not the ones funded by the regions), and it does not sell commuter rail tickets at all, however, your long distance ticket will give you a code for a Combinado Cercanías ticket (to be obtained at a commuter rail machine), which gives you free commuter rail to your final destination.
The tickets it will sell you or print you are of the TGV-like type.

However, I'm not sure if that's the same case of different formats if you print them on paper at home, as most people now just keep them on the phone.
At first sight, I'd say it isn't. But I could be wrong.


----------



## 437.001

double post


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> Why? Someone who starts a trip at a regional station might want to connect with a long distance train. If it is not possible to buy a ticket from any station to any station from the ticket machine then technically RENFE is even in breach of European passenger rights regulations.


That's generally separated to avoid queues.
If you want a regional rail or commuter rail, you'll want speed from the machine, and there will probably be someone else behind you to do the same.
So it is a bit nonsense to require that the machine prints things at all, as that would make people even more hurried if there's a long queue.
If you want a long-distance ticket, it is not assumed that you will travel on the day you buy the ticket, so your purchase might take longer, hence the separation.
That is usually the case at large or busy stations.

If it is a smaller station with machines, chances are that it is a manned station, so unless you are in a hurry (which is less probable), you can always go to the ticket counter and do a human-to-human transaction, which usually is a better option for the non-accustomed passenger.



K_ said:


> But why should one only be allowed to use the direct Alvia services to go to Madrid? If I book a ticket from Basel to Frankfurt on www.bahn.de the system will not only offer me direct trains, but also all connections.


Er... have you bothered checking? No.  😑
The Renfe website won't show you only direct Alvia trains to travel from Vilagarcía to Madrid.

Let's do a search for a Vilagarcía-Madrid for tomorrow at *Horarios, precios de trenes, Ave, Avlo, Alvia, Regionales | Renfe*
I've just checked, and it offers me five different possibilities, from the direct Alvia train taking 4h56min, a second one which is a non-posssibility because it is idiotic as it's a disfunction of the program (NOW, that is one of the things Renfe really needs to improve), then two other possibilities including an interchange at Santiago station (one includes an MD regional train from Vilagarcía to Santiago, then an Alvia from Santiago to Madrid, all in 5h34min, and the second one includes the same type of interchange, but this time taking only 5h15min), plus a fourth one including an interchange at Pontevedra station (taking a Regional regional train from Vilagarcía to Pontevedra, and an Alvia from Pontevedra to Madrid, all in 7h).

So they offer you not just direct Alvia trains, but all the trips offered include an Alvia train, because any other option includes travel times which are considered too long (I mean beyond 7 hours, which is the slowest option available on the Renfe website, and that's quite some bit of a travel time when you have available faster choices).

Or, perhaps then you'd complain about the long travel times, not about "why only Alvia"?



K_ said:


> And RENFE has not concept of network... Why do so fast many trains on the Vigo - A Coruna line miss connections to Ourense (and onwards to Madrid) in Santiago de Compostela by just a few minutes?


Because they're not considered "official interchanges".

On an official interchange, Renfe shall provide you a means of transportation if you miss the connection, meaning such a delay that the connecting train can't wait for the train you are on, refund included if the causes of the delay are down to Renfe or Adif (which means Renfe doesn't refund you if the train runs over a person, or is hit by lightning, or a lorry falls from the top of the bridge when the train passes by).

On shorter interchanges (the "unnofficial" ones), said connection is not considered "safe", thus Renfe doesn't sell it as a single ticket. You might buy them separately at the ticket counter (or the ticket machine, or online), and ask the staff to staple them together (or do it yourself, if you are not upper class enough).
However, in case of delay, in this case Renfe will not provide alternative means of transport for you, and you will get a refund only if the delay is considered refundable on the single train that was delayed, provided it is a long-distance one where refunds apply, which excludes regional trains unless the interchange is official - you might want to ask for a delay form if there are job delays to be argued against, though).



K_ said:


> The implementation of that is also broken. You need to go to a Cercanias ticket machine, and enter a code there form your long distance ticket. That adds time to your transfer. In Germany or Switzerland. you can just walk from your ICE to the S-Bahn or regional train (sometimes even cross platform) without fuss via the shortest route.


In larger high-speed rail systems, such as the Chinese, the Japanese, or the Spanish, and even the French at least in part, it often makes little to no sense at all to have a cross-platform connection between a high-speed train and a commuter train, mainly because very often that is physically impossible, when not impractical. Not to talk about different gauges, which, come to think of it, also exist in Switzerland, making the famous Swiss cross-platform interchanges harder or impossible, in places.

Going a bit more practical, you cannot have a Madrid to Torremolinos with a cross-platform interchange at Malaga, and you cannot do that because the Torremolinos train stops at the low-level platforms in Iberian gauge, while the AVE from Madrid stops at the high-level platforms in standard gauge.

Besides, commuter rail trains in Spain, at least in large stations but also many of the smaller ones, tend to have fare barriers, like in Japan, the UK, Ireland, the RER/Transilien and French metros, Italian metros, and the New York subway, and many other places in the world.

I am aware of the German/Swiss peculiarity of the "trust" method, relying on the honesty of the passenger, but I tend to find it a bit naive at best. See the Athens metro example, for instance.

So, while you might argue that "Swiss is better"... 
...I might reply you "not always, or at least, not in Japan".

On the other hand, in Spain I have done countless cross-platform interchanges.
That, when not same-platform interchanges.
So perhaps you'd want to explain a bit more what exactly did you mean.


----------



## Khaul

Do not take the name of Japan in vain! You don’t buy tickets for any train within the metropolitan area there, you simply tap your IC card (which by the way works in any city). You buy your long distance train tickets in a machine at stations or at a ticket booth. And you wait for your train at the platform, no airport check-in nonsense like in Spain or the US.

By the way, the area covered by the IC cards around major cities is huge. Transfers between any public transport mode are seamless, even between different companies. IC Cards

Last, but no least, often you don’t even need to reserve a seat in the Shinkansen.


----------



## AndreiB

The thing I find most frustrating with Spain (and France) HSR is the need for compulsory reservations. Why is this actually needed? Just sell turn up and go flexible tickets like they do in Germany. It makes the overall system so much more attractive for passengers.


----------



## trenpato

AndreiB said:


> The thing I find most frustrating with Spain (and France) HSR is the need for compulsory reservations. Why is this actually needed? Just sell turn up and go flexible tickets like they do in Germany. It makes the overall system so much more attractive for passengers.



I'd hate to pay for a ticket and not having a seat to travel.


----------



## Suburbanist

AndreiB said:


> The thing I find most frustrating with Spain (and France) HSR is the need for compulsory reservations. Why is this actually needed? Just sell turn up and go flexible tickets like they do in Germany. It makes the overall system so much more attractive for passengers.


Since trips in Spain are quite long, and stop far spaced, non-reserved tickets could easily create standing passenger situations at busiest times, such as early morning services from Madrid to Barcelona and vice-versa. That is very uncomfortable.


----------



## Khaul

^^Not if the next train leaves in 10min.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> If you want a long-distance ticket, it is not assumed that you will travel on the day you buy the ticket, so your purchase might take longer, hence the separation.
> That is usually the case at large or busy stations.


That is a bug, not a feature. And anyway, it should be possible to buy a ticket for any train up to the moment of departure. People do travel last minute. I have even bought plane tickets just hours before travel. And once bought a Thalys ticket in Rotterdam for a train that was already standing in the station...






> Er... have you bothered checking? No.  😑
> The Renfe website won't show you only direct Alvia trains to travel from Vilagarcía to Madrid.
> 
> Let's do a search for a Vilagarcía-Madrid for tomorrow at *Horarios, precios de trenes, Ave, Avlo, Alvia, Regionales | Renfe*
> I've just checked, and it offers me five different possibilities, from the direct Alvia train taking 4h56min, a second one which is a non-posssibility because it is idiotic as it's a disfunction of the program (NOW, that is one of the things Renfe really needs to improve), then two other possibilities including an interchange at Santiago station (one includes an MD regional train from Vilagarcía to Santiago, then an Alvia from Santiago to Madrid, all in 5h34min, and the second one includes the same type of interchange, but this time taking only 5h15min), plus a fourth one including an interchange at Pontevedra station (taking a Regional regional train from Vilagarcía to Pontevedra, and an Alvia from Pontevedra to Madrid, all in 7h).


I have checked. There are six Alvias on the Ourense to Madrid route. Since the services from elsewhere in Galicia to Ourense are more frequent there could be six possibilities between any station in Galicia and Madrid, with all comparable trip times. All that is needed to make that possible is good timetabling.

Compare that with how SBB does things. There are six trains from Zurich to Paris via Basel. Nicely spaced, every two hours. Because SBB knows how to design timetables almost every town and village in Switzerland has thus a connection to Paris every two hours. And this the same with connections between Switzerland and Germany.

RENFE should start by running Ourense - Madrid once every two hours to an identical schedule. Extend those Alvias to A Coruna, Vigo etc... but integrate with a well structured local time table such that when no direct train is available for your customers they can use one with a connection with an equal trip time.



> Because they're not considered "official interchanges".


By not offering those you reduce the value of your service. Good timetabling is a cheap way of increasing the value of your service, thus increasing your sales and profits.



> On an official interchange, Renfe shall provide you a means of transportation if you miss the connection, meaning such a delay that the connecting train can't wait for the train you are on, refund included if the causes of the delay are down to Renfe or Adif (which means Renfe doesn't refund you if the train runs over a person, or is hit by lightning, or a lorry falls from the top of the bridge when the train passes by).


So what. The minimum time for a official transfer in Switzerland is 3 minutes. If you miss that, you take the next train.




> In larger high-speed rail systems, such as the Chinese, the Japanese, or the Spanish, and even the French at least in part, it often makes little to no sense at all to have a cross-platform connection between a high-speed train and a commuter train, mainly because very often that is physically impossible, when not impractical. Not to talk about different gauges, which, come to think of it, also exist in Switzerland, making the famous Swiss cross-platform interchanges harder or impossible, in places.


Even with different gauges we often have cross platform connections.
A good example is Basel. Trains coming from Germany alternate between going to either Zurich or Bern - Interlaken. Each of those trains will always give a cross platform connection to the other destination. So if you are on a Frankfurt - Zurich train you will find the train to Bern on the other side of the platform in Basel. This is how SBB/DB can offer hourly connections on eg. Frankfurt Bern, without having to run direct trains every hour.



> Besides, commuter rail trains in Spain, at least in large stations but also many of the smaller ones, tend to have fare barriers, like in Japan, the UK, Ireland, the RER/Transilien and French metros, Italian metros, and the New York subway, and many other places in the world.
> 
> I am aware of the German/Swiss peculiarity of the "trust" method, relying on the honesty of the passenger, but I tend to find it a bit naive at best. See the Athens metro example, for instance.


It is called user friendly design. Not having barriers at commuter and urban rail stations is not just a Swiss thing btw. You will not find barriers in Finland, in Norway, In Austria, or in the Czech Republic. They were introduced in the Netherlands and it is a disaster.

Japan does have barriers, but they have it implemented right.



Suburbanist said:


> Since trips in Spain are quite long, and stop far spaced, non-reserved tickets could easily create standing passenger situations at busiest times, such as early morning services from Madrid to Barcelona and vice-versa. That is very uncomfortable.


Then run more trains. You only need an average occupancy of about 35% to break even. So you can run lots of trains, even if they aren't always full.


----------



## AndreiB

Suburbanist said:


> Since trips in Spain are quite long, and stop far spaced, non-reserved tickets could easily create standing passenger situations at busiest times, such as early morning services from Madrid to Barcelona and vice-versa. That is very uncomfortable.


Yes, but the alternative is not to travel. I even saw compulsory reservations on ultra short routes like Madrid-Toledo, meaning I couldn’t go, because they were sold out. That just pushes people towards cars. Who cares if you stand for 30min, it’s basically a glorified metro.

Frequencies also seem to be pretty rare for dedicated high speed lines - Madrid - Valencia is only 1tph and not even at all times.


----------



## trenpato

K_ said:


> Then run more trains. You only need an average occupancy of about 35% to break even. So you can run lots of trains, even if they aren't always full.


[/QUOTE]

So the problem is not having compulsory reservations. The problem is having less trains than demand asks.

I agree that Renfe should consider putting more trains and services on some corridors. If they don't do it, other train operator will came and put the trains instead.


----------



## K_

trenpato said:


> So the problem is not having compulsory reservations. The problem is having less trains than demand asks.


If you look at Japan you see two things:

They run trains at high frequencies. Typically every 10 minutes. In France too the Paris - Lyon line now sees around 10-3 trains per hour. I think RENFE should run non-stop Madrid - Barcelona every 15 minutes, and with local stops at least every half hour.
The Shinkansen keeps non-reserved seats in a separate section. Doing it like that people who do have reservations are not bothered by potential standees.


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> That is a bug, not a feature.


Only because you say it is.
Others could say that that's a feature and not a bug.



K_ said:


> And anyway, it should be possible to buy a ticket for any train up to the moment of departure.


In Spain you can buy a ticket for a long-distance train up until 2 minutes before the moment of departure.
Is that wrong? Normally not. But even with such short notice, sometimes things can go messy.

You can also buy a ticket for a regional or commuter train up until the moment of departure.
Is that wrong? It may be wrong in some cases, yes. Can you imagine which ones?



K_ said:


> People do travel last minute.


Some people do, but one thing is to travel last minute, which is perfectly fine.
And another is to travel last second, which may cause unnecessary delays in certain cases.



K_ said:


> I have even bought plane tickets just hours before travel. And once bought a Thalys ticket in Rotterdam for a train that was already standing in the station...


If a train is already at the station but has a long enough dwelling time, I see no problem,
If the train is about to depart, I do see a problem.
A hurried passenger can sometimes be a problem to himself and to other people.



K_ said:


> I have checked. There are six Alvias on the Ourense to Madrid route. Since the services from elsewhere in Galicia to Ourense are more frequent there could be six possibilities between any station in Galicia and Madrid, with all comparable trip times. All that is needed to make that possible is good timetabling.


Could be. Could also be that we already know that.
But again, we do not pretend to be Swiss.
Moreover, we can't pretend we can change the Spanish rail network in the blink of an eye, as most people would infer from your posts, when that's a much bigger task than keeping the small Swiss network up to date.

On another note, there will be a significant change in timetables on the Madrid-Galicia HSL from December 21 on, because of the opening of the new section of the HSL between Pedralba and Taboadela, and subsequently, the number of services will increase from that date on, and that will come with a good save in travel times.
And of course, more official interchanges will be possible as well.

But I'm sure you already knew that, as you've been keeping up with the thread, as we've seen with the Trenhotel and stuff. 



K_ said:


> Compare that with how SBB does things.


 No.

Paris-Zürich is not an intra-Swiss trip, it's an international trip.
Which works just fine, yes. Except when it doesn't.

However, you can also compare with the fabulous service SBB offers on Barcelona-Geneva, if that's what you want.
Ah, you don't want to, for Barcelona-Geneva you prefer buses instead, I forgot. 

PS: You do not tolerate Renfe even an inch inside Geneva? Do you even have a hard time tolerating Sncf? That's okay, there are free paths aplenty between Perpignan and Barcelona on the HSL. And punctuality rate on Spanish HSL's is usually high, in case you wondered.



K_ said:


> RENFE should start by running Ourense - Madrid once every two hours to an identical schedule. Extend those Alvias to A Coruna, Vigo etc... but integrate with a well structured local time table such that when no direct train is available for your customers they can use one with a connection with an equal trip time.


That's what they are trying to do, but you know, Spain is not as rich as Switzerland.
I've spent quite some minutes trying to explain to you the reasons why what works for Switzerland doesn't necessarily work exactly the same way everywhere else. You didn't pay attention, did you?

But hey, now I know lots of extra things about Swiss rail that I already knew before the lecturing anyway. 



K_ said:


> By not offering those you reduce the value of your service.


That's only your opinion.
Others may think that offering travel times of over 12 hours long when there is a possibility of doing it in less than 5 hours is a right foul pissing on the customer's face, and that will be off-putting to many to say the least, as they will at best go _"damn, too bad, let's take the car/take a bus/a plane/whatever else"_. Which is very much the case.



K_ said:


> Good timetabling is a cheap way of increasing the value of your service, thus increasing your sales and profits.


You can do good timetabling if you have enough staff and enough rolling stock.
But when you don't, you have to make the most with what you've got.



K_ said:


> The minimum time for a official transfer in Switzerland is 3 minutes. If you miss that, you take the next train.


You can't compare a small country like Switzerland which only has commuter rail at best (perfectly organized, that's true, but commuter rail in the end) and also a homogeneous population density on the inhabitable areas of it (please do not count the Matterhorn summit a an "inhabitable area"), with larger countries which are much more complicated in many regards, and which, yes, are very much aware of their own failures.



K_ said:


> Even with different gauges we often have cross platform connections.


Often we do, too, when that is physically possible.



K_ said:


> It is called user friendly design.


No, it's not so simple.



K_ said:


> Then run more trains. *You only need an average occupancy of about 35% to break even*.


That's an empty train.


----------



## TER200

K_ said:


> Then run more trains.


If you can.


K_ said:


> You only need an average occupancy of about 35% to break even. So you can run lots of trains, even if they aren't always full.



With Swiss fares maybe.
Our TGVs have an average occupancy of over 80% and they are barely profitable.
Not every government gives as much money to the railways as the Swiss one...


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> I think RENFE should run non-stop Madrid - Barcelona every 15 minutes, and with local stops at least every half hour.


You seem to be quite knowledgeable of the "world outside". 

So knowledgeable that you probably already know that HSL sections such as Barcelona Sants-Camp de Tarragona are starting to be slightly strained, which is a slight issue when you know that there are hundreds of extra kilometres of HSL waiting to be opened, hence with future tons of extra trains to be added to the timetable in the coming years. 

Not just of the hideous Renfe, by the way.
Sncf already operates within Spain, and Trenitalia will start in months time, too.
We don't rule out that other companies might begin doing the same more or less soon.

So who knows? We might even meet and greet TGV-Lyria sometime soon, as well... 

...


----------



## cheehg

K_ said:


> If you look at Japan you see two things:
> 
> They run trains at high frequencies. Typically every 10 minutes. In France too the Paris - Lyon line now sees around 10-3 trains per hour. I think RENFE should run non-stop Madrid - Barcelona every 15 minutes, and with local stops at least every half hour.
> The Shinkansen keeps non-reserved seats in a separate section. Doing it like that people who do have reservations are not bothered by potential standees.


population around the 500 kms line from Tokyo to Osaka is 60 millions. This is idea for HSR run every 5 mins.
Other lines in the world have the similar situation are Soeul to Busan, 400 kms with 35 millions, Guangzhou to Shenzhen 150 km with 60 million, Shanghai to Nanjing 300 km with 55 millions. They can support 2 HSR lines with 300 trains each direction. In Europe, there is no city pairs with that kind of population density with 400-500 kms distance.


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## TokyoImperialPalace

While researching more on a high speed railway for India, I learnt that the Japanese had wished they built the Tokaido Shinkansen as a quadruple railway due to the sheer number of people that use the railway.

I brought up the idea that the current Ahemebad - Mumbai standard gauge high speed railway in India could be supplemented by a broad gauge high speed railway between Delhi and Mumbai (which is in the came corridor as the Ahemabad one).


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> Only because you say it is.
> Others could say that that's a feature and not a bug.


Most people would call something that reduces the value of a product not a feature...



> In Spain you can buy a ticket for a long-distance train up until 2 minutes before the moment of departure.
> Is that wrong? Normally not. But even with such short notice, sometimes things can go messy.
> 
> You can also buy a ticket for a regional or commuter train up until the moment of departure.
> Is that wrong? It may be wrong in some cases, yes. Can you imagine which ones?


What about a trip involving a regional train and a long distance train, starting at a regional station. You yourself have admitted that you cannot buy long distance tickets from ticket vending machines at stations where only regional trains stop. And have defended the practice.

In Germany I can go to a random station in the country, and buy a ticket there to any other station in the country from a ticket vending machine. And this regardless whether the trip involves regional trains, long distance trains or a combination. Even if it involves 7 transfers...

Can you in Spain?





> Paris-Zürich is not an intra-Swiss trip, it's an international trip.
> Which works just fine, yes. Except when it doesn't.


That applies to everything. And it is not a reason not to do it.



> However, you can also compare with the fabulous service SBB offers on Barcelona-Geneva, if that's what you want.
> Ah, you don't want to, for Barcelona-Geneva you prefer buses instead, I forgot.


You will not see me in a Barcelona - Geneva bus. Or you would have to pay me a lot of money. The Swiss would love to see a Barcelona - Geneva service. But the problem is that France is in the way, and SNCF is in many ways as bad as RENFE. Why do the Paris - Barcelona trains not stop in Lyon? This reduces the appeal of the service.
However the Swiss have discovered that you can travel by train from Barcelona to Geneva. I have done it myself. However it usually involves a change in Valence. It is interesting how many Swiss you will see make the change there.



> PS: You do not tolerate Renfe even an inch inside Geneva?


If RENFE wanted to run a train all the way to Geneva they would be more than welcome. We had Talgo's in the past. They even want as far as Zürich.



> Do you even have a hard time tolerating Sncf?


There are more SNCF departures from Geneva than there are RENFE departures from 2/3 of the stations in Spain.



> That's okay, there are free paths aplenty between Perpignan and Barcelona on the HSL. And punctuality rate on Spanish HSL's is usually high, in case you wondered.


RENFE has excellent trains. They are modern, clean and punctual. I have no complaint there. But I am puzzled that RENFE does not try to take better advantage of that.



> That's what they are trying to do, but you know, Spain is not as rich as Switzerland.
> I've spent quite some minutes trying to explain to you the reasons why what works for Switzerland doesn't necessarily work exactly the same way everywhere else. You didn't pay attention, did you?


These are just excuses. Better timetabling and ticketing does not cost a lot of money. It is a cheap way of making more money. That works everywhere, not just in Switzerland.




> You can do good timetabling if you have enough staff and enough rolling stock.
> But when you don't, you have to make the most with what you've got.


[/quote][/quote]


----------



## K_

TER200 said:


> With Swiss fares maybe.
> Our TGVs have an average occupancy of over 80% and they are barely profitable.
> Not every government gives as much money to the railways as the Swiss one...


The SBB IC/IR network is not subsidised. Those trains make money. 
The problem SNCF has is that they are not very efficient. TGV fares are in fact rather high, but the trains are overstaffed, and trains spend to much time not running. 

And in France they marginal cost of a running train is further increased by keeping the path charges artificially high, to keep competitors out...


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> You seem to be quite knowledgeable of the "world outside".
> 
> So knowledgeable that you probably already know that HSL sections such as Barcelona Sants-Camp de Tarragona are starting to be slightly strained, which is a slight issue when you know that there are hundreds of extra kilometres of HSL waiting to be opened, hence with future tons of extra trains to be added to the timetable in the coming years.


So there are already upwards of 20 departures per hour from Sants in the direction of Tarragona you are saying? Why do I not see those in the timetable?


----------



## alserrod

K_ said:


> In Germany I can go to a random station in the country, and buy a ticket there to any other station in the country from a ticket vending machine. And this regardless whether the trip involves regional trains, long distance trains or a combination. Even if it involves 7 transfers...
> 
> Can you in Spain?



No, we can't.
For a long time, service was focused on point to point. They have started, barely with transfers and links. Not enough. People remain focusing on point to point. 

On the other hand, last weekend the football team of my city moved to the other side of Spain by HSL. Nothing special, at the beginning we posted these news but they are too usual nowadays.
The hint, they chosed a direct HSL plus 1h30m by bus instead of train+train (and bus to the hotel and stadium)


----------



## K_

cheehg said:


> population around the 500 kms line from Tokyo to Osaka is 60 millions. This is idea for HSR run every 5 mins.
> Other lines in the world have the similar situation are Soeul to Busan, 400 kms with 35 millions, Guangzhou to Shenzhen 150 km with 60 million, Shanghai to Nanjing 300 km with 55 millions. They can support 2 HSR lines with 300 trains each direction. In Europe, there is no city pairs with that kind of population density with 400-500 kms distance.


No. But Paris - Lyon does support a very frequent service, there is no reason why Madrid - Barcelona couldn't. 



TokyoImperialPalace said:


> While researching more on a high speed railway for India, I learnt that the Japanese had wished they built the Tokaido Shinkansen as a quadruple railway due to the sheer number of people that use the railway.


Is there no reason why that could not be done? 
The French are seriously considering building a second Paris - Lyon HSL. 



> I brought up the idea that the current Ahemebad - Mumbai standard gauge high speed railway in India could be supplemented by a broad gauge high speed railway between Delhi and Mumbai (which is in the came corridor as the Ahemabad one).


Why is India building HSLs to standard gauge. You have this wonderful broad gauge. Use that to your advantage I would say.


----------



## Axelferis

When i watch youtube spanish travel reports about HSL trains, i notice they are very goods & moderns but... half empty ?!

Doesn't this network has been oversized?


----------



## trenpato

Axelferis said:


> When i watch youtube spanish travel reports about HSL trains, i notice they are very goods & moderns but... half empty ?!
> 
> Doesn't this network has been oversized?


Actually, the price of a ticket is seen as too high for many people. Added that most highways are free, and most people have its own car.
I hope that companies like Ouigo in spain will encourage people to stop using the car by lowering prices, but such a change in mentality will take decades.


----------



## TokyoImperialPalace

K_ said:


> Is there no reason why that could not be done?
> The French are seriously considering building a second Paris - Lyon HSL.


They just didn't have the blessing of hindsight. It might be a similar situation to the UK - being first also means you don't get a chance to learn from mistakes. Since it is a elevated system in a highly developed area (more-so after shinkansens were introduced to the area) the cost of building another two track railway would be incredibly high. But instead they have decided to build the Chuo Shinkansen in that corridor albeit on a slightly different routing.



> Why is India building HSLs to standard gauge. You have this wonderful broad gauge. Use that to your advantage I would say.


There was an whistle-blower on a different project recently who claimed that much of the decision to build in standard gauge was based on real estate and the "will of foreign investment groups" who wanted to see everything bought from overseas at a more expensive cost.

But essentially it is because the Japanese pressed for standard gauge against the wishes of the railway management at the time, and the Japanese are bankrolling the HSR project as a very soft loan.


----------



## cheehg

K_ said:


> No. But Paris - Lyon does support a very frequent service, there is no reason why Madrid - Barcelona couldn't.
> 
> 
> Is there no reason why that could not be done?
> The French are seriously considering building a second Paris - Lyon HSL.


Paris-Lyon served many other cities too. Those trains branch out from the main line.


----------



## K_

TokyoImperialPalace said:


> There was an whistle-blower on a different project recently who claimed that much of the decision to build in standard gauge was based on real estate and the "will of foreign investment groups" who wanted to see everything bought from overseas at a more expensive cost.
> 
> But essentially it is because the Japanese pressed for standard gauge against the wishes of the railway management at the time, and the Japanese are bankrolling the HSR project as a very soft loan.


But the Japanese are perfectly capable building a broad gauge Shinkansen. Just like Alstom had no issue building an Iberian Gauge TGV when RENFE asked them to do so. Building trains to different gauges is something any competent manufacturer (and the Japanese are certainly competent) can do.


----------



## K_

cheehg said:


> Paris-Lyon served many other cities too. Those trains branch out from the main line.


That is the case in Spain as well. Many trains from Madrid to Barcelona continue onwards. But why a train to Figueres has to be classed half as AVE and half as ALVIA is something that again probably RENFE understands....


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## Stuu

TokyoImperialPalace said:


> But essentially it is because the Japanese pressed for standard gauge against the wishes of the railway management at the time, and the Japanese are bankrolling the HSR project as a very soft loan.


I think it was at least in part to ensure it was an entirely separate system from the existing network, to avoid politicians demanding that they had direct trains using the infrastructure to their state/city


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## TokyoImperialPalace

Stuu said:


> I think it was at least in part to ensure it was an entirely separate system from the existing network, to avoid politicians demanding that they had direct trains using the infrastructure to their state/city


I don't think this is the best place for yet another discussion on broad gauge, but my opinion is that domestically the advantages of being able to run HSR on regular railways (including the broad gauge semi high speed railways) outweigh any political mess caused by politicians, which we also have with many European high speed railway systems (such as Germany in particular). The core argument for standard gauge seems to be about the loan from Japan, and everything else is about trying to make that loan "work" for India. If the loan was for broad gauge then no-one would seriously suggest a standard gauge high speed railway.

If you are interested in the article then you can Chrome translate this: ‘കെ–റെയില്‍ പഠനം കെട്ടിച്ചമച്ചത്; രാജ്യാന്തര ലോബിയുടെ താല്‍പര്യങ്ങള്‍ക്ക് അനുസൃതം’


----------



## TokyoImperialPalace

K_ said:


> But the Japanese are perfectly capable building a broad gauge Shinkansen. Just like Alstom had no issue building an Iberian Gauge TGV when RENFE asked them to do so. Building trains to different gauges is something any competent manufacturer (and the Japanese are certainly competent) can do.


There was responses from both Alstom and Siemens that it would take a large order of around thirty trainsets to be able to manufacture a broad gauge high speed railway. But I also wonder why the Japanese were so aggressive on the standard gauge, so I presume that much of the work for a standard gauge high speed railway has been done already, and there is minimal cost for the Japanese economy to building the HSR in India (almost like charity to the Japanese companies building the HSR). If it was a Indian company that was bankrolling the railway then I think the Japanese companies would be able to create a broad gauge high speed railway. 

I am not quite sure what the future of standard gauge HSR will be in India. The SHSR system is mostly being constructed as broad gauge and many parts of India are simply unserviceable through a dedicated HSR lines in the next few decades.


----------



## M-NL

TokyoImperialPalace said:


> While researching more on a high speed railway for India, I learnt that the Japanese had wished they built the Tokaido Shinkansen as a quadruple railway due to the sheer number of people that use the railway.


If they had known the passengers volumes in advance, they probably would have chosen a slightly wider track gauge and an even bigger loading gauge, which would allow for comfortable 6 abreast seating and spacious double deck trains. And they would probably not have put in those tight corners that prevent speeds of over 285 km/h as well.

A lot of countries, in hindsight, would have made different choices. A slightly wider track gauge, higher axle loads, a bigger loading gauge, different platform heights, different OHLE voltage or different safety systems. That would have allowed more stable dual stack container trains and double decker trains with two continuous levels and level boarding that could run faster, closer together and dwell shorter. But all of that didn't happen, but it's nice to imagine how it could have been if it did.


----------



## M-NL

TokyoImperialPalace said:


> But I also wonder why the Japanese were so aggressive on the standard gauge,


Shinkansen is not just a train design, it's an integrated concept based on a segregated network. I think their line of thought is that if you build it in a different gauge, that would allow integration with the existing network, the concept gets watered down, which they don't like to happen. I think that integration would be the best choice you could make.


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> So there are already upwards of 20 departures per hour from Sants in the direction of Tarragona you are saying?


I counted 24 trains per day and direction between Barcelona Sants and Camp de Tarragona calling at Camp de Tarragona.
To them, you must add at the very least 10 extra trains per day and direction which don't call at Camp de Tarragona but run through it non-stop.
Plus the trains which are currently cancelled by the pandemic, and there's quite a few of them too, at least 10 more per day and direction.
Plus the additional non-Renfe trains per day and direction.

At one point, there will be around 90 trains per day, at least.
That's close to congestion, as any ERTMS incidence may cause a cascade of delays hitting most of the country, although luckily with less impact on the classic lines than in France or elsewhere in Europe.

Why would a country of 47 million inhabitants that is ten times as large as Switzerland want 20 trains per hour on any HSL line when the capital of the country is located right in the geographical centre of it, surrounded by a large low-density area which is separated from the coast and the Ebro Valley by mountains, and its HSR network is still very much a work in progress?

Like I said, your country basically operates (very well), a gigantic commuter rail network in a rather small country.
You have no long distance services.
With the sparse international train here and there.
And that's alright for you, because that's what you need.
And that's a bit like the Netherlands or Belgium do.

Spain is not like that. And France isn't, either.
But Spain is different from France because it is less populated and Spain's population is much less evenly distributed throughout the country, and last but not least, Paris is in northern France, while Madrid is right in the centre of Spain, so this leads to differences in operation of the network, as geography makes the shape of the network different.

And Germany is a third kind of system, because in places it's more like Switzerland, but much larger, and there you can see how the Germans can't cope well with long-distance services, because they try to operate with a Swiss/Dutch mentality when that mentality is the right one for commuter rail only.

And then Britain and Italy fall into a category of their own, because in places they're like Germany, and in places they're like the empty parts of Spain.



K_ said:


> Why do I not see those in the timetable?


Because to achieve that, we first need to finish the missing HSL's of the network.
Right now Barcelona-Alicante takes just as long as Barcelona-Seville, when the HSL between Valencia and La Encina (right next to Villena) is finished, the travel time will decrease, and there will be even more trains, and etc with other parts of the rest of the Perpignan-Barcelona-Tarragona-Valencia-Alicante-Murcia-Almeria-Granada-Antequera corridor.
To be added to the extra trains coming from Galicia and Asturias and probably Salamanca via Segovia-Madrid, to the trains coming from Lisbon and Extremadura, and to the trains coming from the Basque Country once the Basque Y and the Navarre HSL are finished.

==================================================

A video of a train between Corunna and Monforte de Lemos.
Here's an example of the three types of lines you can see in Spain.
The video is from a few years ago, but it works for what I want to show you.








🔼 🔼 🔼
Don't pay attention to the fact it's an Arco train with a diesel loco.
What I'm showing you here is the *three types of lines and the geography they cross* very often.

*1) Between Corunna (00:00:00) and Santiago (00:31:50)* you have a *heavily upgraded classic line, good for 200-220km/h in places*, built in the early to mid 20th century (its construction was halted for decades because of the war, opened only in the 1950's, before the 50's there was no railway between Corunna and Santiago), but upgraded so heavily in the 21st century that large parts of it are entirely new, and it has only kept one intermediate station in its original position (Uxes), two more stations (Meirama, Ordes) were moved to a new location, and all the others (Bregua, Cerceda, Vila da Igrexa, Queixas-Londoño, Gorgullos-Tordoia, Oroso-Vilacide, Berdia) were closed as they were left off the new parts of the lines.
There aren't many of them in the whole of Spain, namely Seville-Cadiz, Alcazar de San Juan-Albacete, Albacete-Chinchilla, Alcazar de San Juan-Santa Cruz de Mudela, La Encina-Xativa, Camp de Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia, and Corunna-Santiago-Vigo.

*2) Between Santiago (00:31:50) and Ourense (1:14:00)* you have a *pure HSL, good for 300-350km/h*, although these speeds aren't reached yet. The section between Ourense and Santiago is a bit of an exception as it is the only one in Iberian gauge, so a train in Iberian gauge only can use it. In the future it will have its gauge changed. The reason why it isn't standard gauge yet is because there is freight between Corunna and Vigo, and it makes more sense to have the gauge changers at Ourense for now.

*3) Between Ourense (1:14:00) and Monforte de Lemos (1:56:06) *you have a *19th century classic line*. It has only a short fast section (Canabal to Monforte de Lemos), the rest is very slow, with speeds often not exceeding 70/80km/h, and in a mountainous environment that makes any improvement very challenging. It runs mostly through an unpopulated area.This is how many classic lines are like in Spain. See the difference?

I hope you can tell the number of embankments, cuttings, viaducts and tunnels on the new and old parts between Corunna and Monforte de Lemos, and the geography of the area.

Many other areas in Spain are like this, or even much worse.

You can imagine the cost of an upgrade, not to say a full HSL, in such environments.
You are Swiss, you know that too.
Although in Spain we do not have mountains as tall as the Alps, we have a lot of high mountain anyway (the Pyrenees, the Cantabrian range, Sierra Nevada, the Central range, etc) and lots more mid mountain areas and just hilly areas (too many to name).

Besides, most lines were built when Spain had a much worse finantial situation (loss of empire in the mid to late 19th century, Spanish Civil War 1936-1939), so they were built on a tight budget.

So... if there's no high-speed line, and the intermediate area is not heavily populated and the line is rather slow, how on Earth can anyone expect frequent regional services if the current classic line cannot compete against the road, let alone a HSL?
How can you offer good interchanges with the high speed line, if sometimes the connecting regional train takes longer than the whole of the AVE trip, and even longer than a bus?


----------



## 437.001

M-NL said:


> Shinkansen is not just a train design, it's an integrated concept based on a segregated network. I think their line of thought is that if you build it in a different gauge, that would allow integration with the existing network, the concept gets watered down, which they don't like to happen. *I think that integration would be the best choice you could make*.


Not in very populated environments such as Asian ones.


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## M-NL

If you do not choose for optional integration you will never be able to. When you do, it means you could, but you don't have to. It just means that you could design a completely separate high speed network, but can still choose between separate high speed stations or make last mile branches to existing stations. Basically just like France and Germany did.


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## Khaul

437.001 said:


> I counted 24 trains per day and direction between Barcelona Sants and Camp de Tarragona calling at Camp de Tarragona.
> To them, you must add at the very least 10 extra trains per day and direction which don't call at Camp de Tarragona but run through it non-stop.
> Plus the trains which are currently cancelled by the pandemic, and there's quite a few of them too, at least 10 more per day and direction.
> Plus the additional non-Renfe trains per day and direction.
> 
> At one point, there will be around 90 trains per day, at least.
> That's close to congestion, as any ERTMS incidence may cause a cascade of delays hitting most of the country, although luckily with less impact on the classic lines than in France or elsewhere in Europe.


K_ asked if there are 20 trains per hour per direction. The answer is no, and far from that, right? To be fair, the Tokaido Shinkansen manages just 12 (with just 6 terminal platforms at Tokyo station), but the Barcelona Camp de Tarragona AVE is still far from that in any case.


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## TokyoImperialPalace

437.001 said:


> Not in very populated environments such as Asian ones.


The KTX and the CHSR both travel on conventional lines, especially CHSR when it was growing. Taiwan and Japan both had narrow gauge railways which limited the use of HSR. A segregated railway can be useful in environments where the existing conventional gauge high speed railway is over-saturated, but in other cases having a segregated railway just caused unneeded hardship. A shinkansen can still be built in Europe for point-to-point railways where capacity is a major issue (for example, London to Paris to Brussels is a closed system in many ways, or London to Birmingham might be a good one.)

What I suggested for India was that the Shinkansen could become a closed point-to-point system in high usage routes such as Delhi to Mumbai, whereas broad gauge high speed railways can be used to connect the rest of India, including parallel HSR on the Delhi-Mumbai corridor. Though in my opinion it should have been the other way around with broad gauge coming before standard gauge HSR.


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## 437.001

This is how the Adif network will look like from tomorrow on. 
Tomorrow is the inauguration of the HSL between Pedralba and Taboadela (Ourense) of the Madrid-Galicia HSL. Best travel time Madrid Chamartin-Ourense in 2h15min.

Disclaimer: I hadn't realised about the Seville-Cadiz mistake (should be in red). 









Source: *Une nouvelle Espagne à grande vitesse - transportrail - Le webmagazine des idées ferroviaires (canalblog.com)*


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## M-NL

Two questions:
First question: Is there a good reason, besides costs, why the meter gauge lines couldn't be upgraded to regular lines (either standard or wide gauge)?
Second question: The only high speed wide gauge lines are in the Vigo, Orense/La Coruña triangle. Why didn't they use standard gauge here, like the rest? Or are they also used by 'regular' trains?


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## alserrod

1- Metric line is more focused to regional and commuter trains rather than long distance trains.
For instance, it would be cheaper to build a new HSL Bilbao - Santander and link with a ... future Bilbao - anywhere line rather than upgrade Northern lines.
Most of other lines are focused on regional traffic mainly

2- Galicia line was built (and upgraded) as HSL in 2011. Until tomorrow it didn't had any sense to have standard gauge. It is tomorrow time to decide.
This is, same Alvia La Coruña/Vigo - Orense - anywhere run at 250-300 in that line but Iberian gauge and were changing in Orense to classic line.
You will have HSL to Orense since tomorrow


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## 437.001

M-NL said:


> The only high speed wide gauge lines are in the Vigo, Orense/La Coruña triangle. Why didn't they use standard gauge here, like the rest? *Or are they also used by 'regular' trains?*


In part yes.

On the axis Vigo-Santiago-Coruña they are used by freight (coming also from Portugal) and by regional trains, not just high-speed trains.

Between Santiago and Ourense there's just Alvia, the classic line there runs separately.

The gauge changers are placed at Ourense and Taboadela, as it makes more sense by now.

In the future it is planned to change the gauge of the whole Iberian-gauge network in Galicia, both classic and HSL, but there's no specific date yet (I suppose they'll prefer to begin from the French border, which makes more sense).

For now Adif plans to reelectrify from 3kV to 25kV the classic line between Monforte de Lemos and Ourense (plus electrification of Monforte-Lugo), and also between Ourense and Guillarei, as well as between Vigo Guixar and Guillarei and on to Tui/Valença, plus some missing parts between Redondela and Santiago, which are still operated in diesel.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> I counted 24 trains per day and direction between Barcelona Sants and Camp de Tarragona calling at Camp de Tarragona.
> To them, you must add at the very least 10 extra trains per day and direction which don't call at Camp de Tarragona but run through it non-stop.
> Plus the trains which are currently cancelled by the pandemic, and there's quite a few of them too, at least 10 more per day and direction.
> Plus the additional non-Renfe trains per day and direction.
> 
> At one point, there will be around 90 trains per day, at least.
> That's close to congestion, as any ERTMS incidence may cause a cascade of delays hitting most of the country, although luckily with less impact on the classic lines than in France or elsewhere in Europe.


90 trains per day is close to congestion on a state of the art railway? You are kidding right? You are aware that there are whole railways networks in Europe where the average number of trains per day is 100-150 over the whole network? And that there are high speed railways that operate close to 300 a day?



> Why would a country of 47 million inhabitants that is ten times as large as Switzerland want 20 trains per hour on any HSL line when the capital of the country is located right in the geographical centre of it, surrounded by a large low-density area which is separated from the coast and the Ebro Valley by mountains, and its HSR network is still very much a work in progress?


I didn't say they should. But the line can carry 20 trains per hour, and you claimed it was congested, so that meant that you were claiming that it was already carrying 20 trains an hour.
We know that not to be the case however. 

RENFE should run more trains Madrid - Barcelona though. Currently there are still frequent flights between these cities, showing that RENFE has not been able to capture the market the way SNCF has been able to.



> Like I said, your country basically operates (very well), a gigantic commuter rail network in a rather small country.
> You have no long distance services.
> With the sparse international train here and there.
> And that's alright for you, because that's what you need.
> And that's a bit like the Netherlands or Belgium do.


My point is however that Switzerland integrates the local network with the long distance/international network. There is no reason why RENFE could not do the same. 



437.001 said:


> Tomorrow is the inauguration of the HSL between Pedralba and Taboadela (Ourense) of the Madrid-Galicia HSL. Best travel time Madrid Chamartin-Ourense in 2h15min.


Why is only the fastest train 2h15, and not all the trains?

I see that there are now 7 fast trains per day between Ourense and Madrid. That should result in something like 6 or 7 trains per day from anywhere in Galicia to Madrid. But RENFE is not selling tickets for all possible combinations. All that is need to make the offer more attractive is just setting a few flags in a database. Why don't they do that?


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## alserrod

K_ said:


> Why is only the fastest train 2h15, and not all the trains?



There will be (there are, indeed)

- 2 AVE with best time 2h15m. Madrid-Zamora-Orense (without any other stops)

- rest trains are Alvia (driving not faster than 250) with times between 2h35m and 3h07m
2h35m means Madrid-Zamora-Orense-Santiago-La Coruña (without any other stops)
3h07m means Madrid-Segovia-Medina-Zamora-Sanabria-A Gudiña-Orense-Pontevedra-Vigo


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## JumpUp

Hello,

so now AVEs are able to travel to Ourense, very excited about that!
My question: What gauge does the "classic" double-track line "Ourense - Taboadela" have? Is it 1676 (Spanish) or 1435 (Standard-gauge) or a mix with a third rail?

I always thought it was 1435, but must be different, because AVEs run to Ourense now!


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## alserrod

Galician situation is different than other regions due to they started upgrading one line.

I will try to explain but I would rather prefer any other forumer with longer information will check it. Accept my excuses if I am wrong.

There's a new line Taboadela-Orense. Therefore there's no need to change in Taboadela. Just drive through.
An AVE train will run twice per day Orense-Zamora-Madrid-Zamora-Orense (no other stops) in 2h15m, 300 km/h. Therefore, best time 2h15m

For the rest of the trains, Alvia trains up to 250 km/h and different destinations in Galicia (thus longer times).
By the time, they have to change gauge in Orense, despite it remains as HSL until Santiago-Vigo/La Coruña.

It is now time to consider standard gauge in Galicia but it will not be easy because HSL is used also for freight.


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## JumpUp

alserrod said:


> Galician situation is different than other regions due to they started upgrading one line.
> 
> I will try to explain but I would rather prefer any other forumer with longer information will check it. Accept my excuses if I am wrong.
> 
> There's a new line Taboadela-Orense. Therefore there's no need to change in Taboadela. Just drive through.
> An AVE train will run twice per day Orense-Zamora-Madrid-Zamora-Orense (no other stops) in 2h15m, 300 km/h. Therefore, best time 2h15m
> 
> For the rest of the trains, Alvia trains up to 250 km/h and different destinations in Galicia (thus longer times).
> By the time, they have to change gauge in Orense, despite it remains as HSL until Santiago-Vigo/La Coruña.
> 
> It is now time to consider standard gauge in Galicia but it will not be easy because HSL is used also for freight.


The line Taboadela-Orense (ca. 20 km) is still the "old" classic railway, there is no new line line Taboadela - Orense (maybe in the future...). You can see this on google maps. The new High-Speed-Rail is "only" Pedralba de la Pradería - Taboadela.


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## 437.001

K_ said:


> 90 trains per day is close to congestion on a state of the art railway? You are kidding right?


How many trains per day and direction run between Crisenoy and Pasilly?

That is the busiest stretch of any HSL in Europe, no other one is this busy.

So if that is not state of the art railway for you, I do not know what is.

But Spain needs not so many trains per hour on any HSL, at least not yet, as the network is shaped differently (star shape in Spain, instead of tree shape of France, Italy or Britain), and that's because of its geography, not because of any "mimprovement or sumfin-o-nuffin".

Besides, as I already told you, the Spanish HSR network is still a work in progress, so to see the full effect of it, it will still take years, maybe one or two decades more.



K_ said:


> You are aware that there are whole railways networks in Europe where the average number of trains per day is 100-150 over the whole network? And that there are high speed railways that operate close to 300 a day?


So?



K_ said:


> I didn't say they should. But the line can carry 20 trains per hour, and you claimed it was congested, so that meant that you were claiming that it was already carrying 20 trains an hour.
> We know that not to be the case however.


You do not pay attention to what I say.



K_ said:


> Why is only the fastest train 2h15, and not all the trains?


Because if you had been paying attention to the thread, you would perhaps have already read that there are Alvia trains running on it, and those trains have a top speed of 250km/h, which doesn't allow for such travel time, as they are slower.

2h15min is the best case scenario on an AVE (which start running only from tomorrow on Madrid-Ourense, and which has a top speed of 300km/h), and not on an Alvia (which will keep on running on the rest of the Madrid-Galicia routes), as I had already explained a few posts ago, a few days ago, more than once.



K_ said:


> I see that there are now 7 fast trains per day between Ourense and Madrid. That should result in something like 6 or 7 trains per day from anywhere in Galicia to Madrid. But RENFE is not selling tickets for all possible combinations. All that is need to make the offer more attractive is just setting a few flags in a database. Why don't they do that?


Those seven trains between Madrid and Ourense run only for today.

From tomorrow on, the number of trains increases as the section between Pedralba and Taboadela of the HSL opens, with its improvement in travel times, and offering extra connections.

In fact, it is being inaugurated as I speak.

If may be that Renfe doesn't sell tickets for those combinations because they will cease to exist due to precisely those changes, leading to more connections and better travel times.

Or because those trains are already full due to a promotional campaign with cheaper fares to make the people aware of the new travel times.

...


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## 437.001

*News

Madrid-Galicia HSL*

Section Pedralba-Taboadela inaugurated today, new service starts tomorrow.








*New travel times (best case scenarios):*

_*From Madrid Chamartin*_

Madrid Chamartin-Segovia Guiomar *26min* (direct AVE)
Madrid Chamartin-Medina del Campo AV *55min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Zamora *1h04min* (direct AVE)
Madrid Chamartin-Sanabria AV *1h46min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia *2h05min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Ourense *2h15min* (direct AVE)
Madrid Chamartin-Monforte de Lemos *3h05min* (AVE+Intercity connecting at Ourense), *3h45min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Sarria *3h33min* (AVE + Intercity connecting at Ourense), *4h13min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Lugo *4h00min* (AVE+Intercity connecting at Ourense), *4h40min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Santiago de Compostela *3h00min* (AVE+Avant connecting at Ourense), *3h16min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Vilagarcía de Arousa *3h42min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Pontevedra *3h54min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Vigo Urzáiz *4h12min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Coruña *3h30min* (AVE+Avant connecting at Ourense), *3h48min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Betanzos Infesta *4h27min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Betanzos Cidade *4h59min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Pontedeume *5h16min* (direct Alvia)
Madrid Chamartin-Ferrol *5h12min* (direct Alvia)


_*From Segovia Guiomar*_

Segovia Guiomar-Medina del Campo AV *27min* (direct Alvia or direct Avant)
Segovia Guiomar-Zamora *53min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Sanabria AV *1h27min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia *1h48min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Ourense *2h30min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Monforte de Lemos *3h14min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Sarria *3h42min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Lugo *4h09min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Santiago de Compostela *3h13min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Vilagarcía de Arousa *3h56min* (Alvia+MD connecting at Santiago de Compostela)
Segovia Guiomar-Pontevedra *3h52min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Vigo Urzáiz *4h10min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Coruña *3h44min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Betanzos Infesta *4h18min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Betanzos Cidade *4h29min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Pontedeume *4h46min* (direct Alvia)
Segovia Guiomar-Ferrol *5h08min* (direct Alvia)


*From Medina del Campo AV*

Medina del Campo AV-Zamora *24min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Sanabria AV *58min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia *1h19min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Ourense *2h01min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Monforte de Lemos *2h45min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Sarria *3h13min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Lugo *3h40min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Santiago de Compostela *2h44min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Vilagarcía de Arousa *3h27min* (Alvia+MD connecting at Santiago de Compostela)
Medina del Campo AV-Pontevedra *3h23min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Vigo Urzáiz *3h41min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Coruña *3h15min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Betanzos Infesta *3h49min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Betanzos Cidade *4h00min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Pontedeume *4h17min* (direct Alvia)
Medina del Campo AV-Ferrol *4h39min* (direct Alvia)


*From Zamora*

Zamora-Sanabria AV *32min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia *51min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Ourense *1h09min* (direct AVE)
Zamora-Monforte de Lemos *1h59min* (AVE+Intercity connecting at Ourense), *2h18min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Sarria *2h27min* (AVE + Intercity connecting at Ourense), *2h46min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Lugo *2h54min* (AVE+Intercity connecting at Ourense), *3h13min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Santiago de Compostela *1h54min* (AVE+Avant connecting at Ourense), *2h02min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Vilagarcía de Arousa *2h28min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Pontevedra *2h40min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Vigo Urzáiz *2h58min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Coruña *2h24min* (AVE+Avant connecting at Ourense), *2h34min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Betanzos Infesta *3h13min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Betanzos Cidade *3h34min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Pontedeume *3h51min* (direct Alvia)
Zamora-Ferrol *3h58min* (direct Alvia)


*From Sanabria AV*

Sanabria AV-A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia *17min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Ourense *1h01min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Monforte de Lemos *1h44min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Sarria *2h12min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Lugo *2h39min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Santiago de Compostela *1h43min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Vilagarcía de Arousa *2h09min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Pontevedra *2h17min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Vigo Urzáiz *2h35min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Coruña *2h15min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Betanzos Infesta *2h49min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Betanzos Cidade *3h00min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Pontedeume *3h17min* (direct Alvia)
Sanabria AV-Ferrol *3h39min* (direct Alvia)


_*From A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia*_

A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Ourense *40min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Monforte de Lemos *1h23min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Sarria *1h51min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Lugo *2h18min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Santiago de Compostela *1h23min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Vilagarcía de Arousa *1h50min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Pontevedra *1h58min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Vigo Urzáiz *2h16min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Coruña *1h54min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Betanzos Infesta *2h28min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Betanzos Cidade *2h39min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Pontedeume *2h56min* (direct Alvia)
A Gudiña AV Porta de Galicia-Ferrol *3h18min* (direct Alvia)


*From Ourense*

Ourense-Monforte de Lemos *37min* (direct Alvia or direct MD)
Ourense-Sarria *1h08min* (direct Alvia, direct MD, or direct Intercity)
Ourense-Lugo *1h35min* (direct Alvia, direct MD, or direct Intercity)
Ourense-Santiago de Compostela *37min* (direct Avant)
Ourense-Vilagarcía de Arousa *1h01min* (direct Alvia)
Ourense-Pontevedra *1h12min* (direct Alvia)
Ourense-Vigo Urzáiz *1h30min* (direct Alvia)
Ourense-Coruña *1h07min* (direct Avant)
Ourense-Betanzos Infesta *1h45min* (direct Alvia)
Ourense-Betanzos Cidade *1h56min* (direct Alvia)
Ourense-Pontedeume *2h13min* (direct Alvia)
Ourense-Ferrol *2h34min* (direct Alvia)


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> so now AVEs are able to travel to Ourense, very excited about that!


Good to know. 



JumpUp said:


> My question: What gauge does the "classic" double-track line "Ourense - Taboadela" have? Is it 1676 (Spanish) or 1435 (Standard-gauge) or a mix with a third rail?


Ourense-Taboadela has dual gauge (standard 1,435mm + Iberian 1,668mm), with a 3rd rail.


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> The line Taboadela-Orense (ca. 20 km) is still the "old" classic railway, there is no new line line Taboadela - Orense (maybe in the future...).


The HSL Ourense-Taboadela has been tendered I think, but it wouldn't save a lot of time (like 5 minutes or so).
The straight section on the HSL is less than 20km. It's the classic line the one that's rather bendy, and hence, longer (however, I doubt it's 20km anyway, but I could be wrong).



JumpUp said:


> You can see this on google maps. The new High-Speed-Rail is "only" Pedralba de la Pradería - Taboadela.


That's correct.


----------



## 437.001

*Rumours*

According to inner sources, this could be the timeline for the next openings.
This is subject to possible change, though (and there's no mention of the Extremadura HSL, which is suspicious).

*2nd quarter 2022*
-Madrid Chamartin-Torrejon de Velasco junction (without the through Madrid Atocha platforms, diametral trains would skip Atocha until next phase, 1st phase does not include access to the Barcelona HSL).
-Phase 2 of maintenance base at Fuencarral (Madrid)

*2nd or 3rd quarter 2022*
-Venta de Baños junction-Burgos (for Valladolid-Burgos trains) plus the Magaz chord (for Burgos-Palencia trains)
-Granada gauge changer (for new Alvia services Madrid-Granada-Almeria and Seville-Granada-Almeria)

*December 2022 or 1st quarter 2023*
-Orihuela-Murcia (AVE services would use provisory platforms at Murcia station, which is being put underground)
-Reopening of old classic line between Moixent and La Encina (prior to regauging and reelectrification of current line between Xativa and La Encina, which is the HSL)

*Finished, but unopened due to lack of rolling stock *
-Puigdelfi chord (for services Bilbao/Hendaye-Zaragoza-Lleida-Cambrils-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante, this is probably due to lack of available rolling stock)
-Bobadilla chord (for services Malaga-Granada, rather probably includes Antequera-Ciudad new station. Source says 2nd/3rd quarter, but doesn't specify year, lack of rolling stock also has a lot to do with it)


----------



## 437.001

*(Bad) News

Mediterranean Corridor (Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante-Murcia)*

The crooks broke in and stole fibre cable from the tracks, this all resulted in a fire at the signal post at Massalfassar station, between Sagunto and Valencia, which has been reduced to ashes.
It will take months to repair, it seems.
Away goes the signalling on the Valencia-Sagunto section, throwing down to the floor the travel times for Euromed, Intercity, regional and commuter services between Barcelona and Valencia, and also regional and commuter services between Valencia and Zaragoza via Teruel.
This obviously also cascades south of Valencia for services continuing on towards Alicante, Murcia, Cartagena, or even Cadiz via Albacete-Linares.
Also hit are the AVE Madrid-Castellon, and Alvia and Intercity services between Madrid or further north (I think one of them is to/from Gijon) and Castellon, Oropesa, Vinaros.


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> How many trains per day and direction run between Crisenoy and Pasilly?
> 
> That is the busiest stretch of any HSL in Europe, no other one is this busy.


About 13 tph, so I would guess something along 200 to 250 per day, per direction. But that line is not state of the art, as it is limited by the outdated signalling system. If you want state of the art look at lines signalled with ETCS. There in principle trains can run at 2 min. intervals, which gives you 30 tph. You do of course not want to use all the slots, so in practice you probably are limited at 24tph.



> Those seven trains between Madrid and Ourense run only for today.
> From tomorrow on, the number of trains increases as the section between Pedralba and Taboadela of the HSL opens, with its improvement in travel times, and offering extra connections.


Actually I knew about the new line being inaugurated, which is why I picked a date in the future. I do read what you write


----------



## 437.001

*News

Madrid-Toledo-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*

A driver's eye video of a class 319 diesel loco running between somewhere between the Monfragüe triangle and Plasencia, on some works train (ballast, if I followed the conversation correctly).
Electrification masts are already visible.
New signalling too, but the old signalling hasn't been removed yet.
The track is being renewed, with new ballast and sleepers able for three rails.
At the end of the video, you can see the state of the upgrade works of Plasencia station.








A bit of background history.
This is obviously not the HSL itself, but the Monfragüe to Plasencia branch of the classic line, where trains have to reverse at Plasencia, and it is being upgraded and electrified as part of the section between Plasencia and Badajoz of the HSL (which isn't visible on this video).
Up until 1985, this line used to run from Monfragüe (then called "Palazuelo-Empalme") to Astorga via Bejar, Guijuelo, Salamanca, Zamora and Benavente, it was the main transversal line for all of western Spain (long distance trains from Seville to Gijon, or from Badajoz to Bilbao used to run through this section).
But sadly, on that fateful year, the section between Plasencia and Astorga was mercilessly axed, one of the stupidest closures ever in Spain.
Now, to travel from Plasencia to Salamanca, you have to travel via Madrid, or take a bus or a car (the best option).  
Centralism cannot even be argued as a cause for the closure, because travelling from Plasencia to Salamanca by train is absolute nonsense nowadays, as the detour via Madrid takes hundreds of kilometres (and at best, four hours longer than the original line via Bejar, not to say the motorway which is faster).


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona HSL*

An AVE and a TGV "duelling" at top speed last August.


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Barcelona HSL*

On this video, filmed near Roda de Bara, not far from Camp de Tarragona station, we can see several trains, among them an AVLO and a Ouigo running on the left.
Looks like this is because there was a Euromed train that arrived at Camp de Tarragona from Valencia with a delay...


----------



## TER200

437.001 said:


> *Madrid-Barcelona HSL*
> 
> An AVE and a TGV "duelling" at top speed last August.


Oh, an AVE running with two sets !
Given the photos I've seen, this seems rare.


----------



## cheehg

TER200 said:


> Oh, an AVE running with two sets !
> Given the photos I've seen, this seems rare.


those two trains are on different tracks.


----------



## 437.001

TER200 said:


> Oh, an AVE running with two sets !
> Given the photos I've seen, *this seems rare*.


Sorry? 😶

You mustn't have seen many photos then... 
They are less common than in France I suppose. Spain is less populated after all.

But a rarity they are not, quite the contrary.
They're less common than they used to because of the pandemic, that yes.


----------



## JoFMO

437.001 said:


> *2nd quarter 2022*
> -Madrid Chamartin-Torrejon de Velasco junction (without the through Madrid Atocha platforms, diametral trains would skip Atocha until next phase, 1st phase does not include access to the Barcelona HSL).
> -Phase 2 of maintenance base at Fuencarral (Madrid)


The Madrid Crossing will help in terms of train operation. But I don't see much benefits for passengers until the platforms in Atocha are finished, which is still a long way to go (have they even started?)
They can operate through-running trains but for passengers from the south it will qlways mean no stop in Madrid before Chamartin. So running current trains through the tunnel will allways mean a worsening for passengers. And because of that I don't see Renfe will run many trains through the tunnel.

What kind of connections do you see viable through the tunnel beside some summer-only beach Trains from the north to the Mediterranean?
In my mind I could come up with some interesting services like Hendaye - Algeciras or Hendaye - Sevilla, but would they really be valuable?




437.001 said:


> *Finished, but unopened due to lack of rolling stock *
> -Puigdelfi chord (for services Bilbao/Hendaye-Zaragoza-Lleida-Cambrils-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante, this is probably due to lack of available rolling stock)
> -Bobadilla chord (for services Malaga-Granada, rather probably includes Antequera-Ciudad new station. Source says 2nd/3rd quarter, but doesn't specify year, lack of rolling stock also has a lot to do with it)


These finished sections without rolling-stock really hurt!

The Puigdelfi Chord could offer some really interesting connections as mentioned like Zaragoza - Valencia.


----------



## 437.001

JoFMO said:


> The Madrid Crossing will help in terms of train operation. But I don't see much benefits for passengers until the platforms in Atocha are finished, which is still a long way to go (have they even started?)


They're close to, it seems. Planning's been started and is well advanced, that's certain.
As far as I know, it has been decided that at least some of the trains to/from the Valencia/Alicante HSL will move from Atocha to Chamartin to release some capacity at Atocha during the works.
It seems it will be whole destinations, not just this or that train (at least that's what has been leaked in SSC).

However, I don't know which destinations will be the affected ones, we only know it will be the trains of the Valencia/Alicante HSL, but we still don't know which one of the two branches, Valencia/Castellon or Alicante/Orihuela, will be the one to move. We'll post when we have the certainty.

To make up for the capacity loss at Atocha during the works, additional provisory high-speed platforms will be built in the small space between the high-speed platforms and the Cercanías platforms. This will mean moving the catering facilities to somewhere else in the station.



JoFMO said:


> They can operate through-running trains but for passengers from the south it will qlways mean no stop in Madrid before Chamartin.


Yes, that's correct.



JoFMO said:


> So running current trains through the tunnel will allways mean a worsening for passengers.


Well, that has two sides. 😶 

The passengers to/from the north (Galicia, Basque Country, Cantabria, etc) will continue to use Chamartin station, as usual.

Thus, it will only be the passengers from either Valencia or Alicante the ones to have a certain number of trains going beyond Madrid and calling at Chamartin instead.
That is, unless Renfe decides to focus on only one of the branches for the new diametral AVE's (Valencia OR Alicante to Leon and Ourense), in which case things would be easier, and if all diametral AVE's were going to say Valencia, then we'd know it would be the Valencia branch the one to move (or the other way around if they chose Alicante instead).

The interesting side of calling at Chamartin instead of Atocha is that you're much closer to the airport and the main business centres of the capital, which are in the northern districts, far from Atocha which is good for tourists as it's next door to the Prado Museum and etc, but that's not great for everyone else.



JoFMO said:


> And because of that I don't see Renfe will run many trains through the tunnel.


You said "Renfe". Do I have to read between the lines? 
We know there are other companies other than Sncf/Ouigo and Iryo/Trenitalia that are looking for available paths.



JoFMO said:


> What kind of connections do you see viable through the tunnel beside some summer-only beach Trains from the north to the Mediterranean?
> In my mind I could come up with some interesting services like Hendaye - Algeciras or Hendaye - Sevilla, but would they really be valuable?


No Hendaye yet, as far as we're aware.

We know Renfe will operate Leon or Ourense to Valencia or Alicante for starters (both lines, but I can't remember which is which), with standard gauge-only trains.
More when extra trains available (read "class 106/107 and post-retrofit of class 130/730").
The current Alvias Castellon-Gijon and Alicante-Santander will be curtailed to be replaced by those AVEs.

More news when we're aware of stuff.



JoFMO said:


> These finished sections without rolling-stock really hurt!


Yes.  Malaga-Granada the most, probably.



JoFMO said:


> The Puigdelfi Chord could offer some really interesting connections as mentioned like Zaragoza - Valencia.


Or Hendaye-Alicante sweeping all of the coast from Cambrils to Valencia, plus Alicante and maybe (if capacity allows) Orihuela (Orihuela Town, which is the one with railway, not Orihuela Costa, which is next to Torrevieja and has no railway).
Now that would be interesting seasonal service, as well as an interesting all-year one.


----------



## Sunfuns

In a very big city like Madrid it seems less important where exactly the long distance trains stop provided there is a metro connection because wherever it is most passengers will need to connect anyway. Of course in the long term it's better to stop in both Atocha and Chamartin for cross city trains. 

Malaga-Granada not operating seems particularly stupid. That's a potentially big market.


----------



## alserrod

I agree it's better both station but, at first, they would be able to stop in Atocha or run over.
In the future it will be possible to stop in both of them


----------



## 437.001

Another Dylan travel report. 
*Barcelona to Bilbao* on an Alvia class 120.

One of the longer long-distance trips in Spain (over 6h, the section between Zaragoza and Bilbao runs on classic lines, and Miranda de Ebro to Bilbao is particularly slow and bendy, as it crosses the Orduña mountain pass).
With a surprise diversion via Pamplona (they usually run via Logroño), which meant an unusual reversal at Miranda de Ebro station. There might have been works or something...
As he says, not the best train route in Spain (anything railway-ish containing "Bilbao" means "long trip"), but a rather scenic one indeed, where you run from the Mediterranean of Barcelona and Tarragona to the dry Ebro Valley between Lleida and Pamplona, and then the lush Atlantic (or near-Atlantic) greenery of northern Navarre, Alava, northern Burgos, and Biscay.


----------



## alserrod

What's the reason about that new route?


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> What's the reason about that new route?


I don't know.
I don't know the date on which it was filmed.
I guess it was probably works of some kind (Rincón de Soto, perhaps? I really don't know) or some technical issue (a power station failure, car on tracks, etc).
The train went non-stop from Castejon to Miranda, which makes absolutely no sense at all under normal circumstances, and if you look at the beginning, you'll see the indicators at the Sants platform showing the train would call at Calahorra, Logroño and Haro, and how at Tudela or Castejon, one of the two, the passengers bound for La Rioja were requested to alight for a substitution bus.

But to be 100% sure, you know where to ask, though.


----------



## alserrod

I bet reason was... works.
Nevertheless... it is strange because they would unplug both trains... at Castejon de Ebro and would drive one after the other. This one, non-stop till Miranda, would be in front of and... a long detour.

The railway is so old in La Rioja that, despite the detour, it will take 20ish minutes more only


----------



## 437.001

alserrod said:


> The railway is so old in La Rioja that, despite the detour, it will take 20ish minutes more only


"Old" is not the word. I'd say, "bendy".
I think when it was built back then in the 19th century, they probably didn't think about speed the way we think now.
So the line does run along the river in many places, and it twists with it along the meanders, instead of tunnelling through the hill.
I think they only rectified this at El Cortijo not long ago, where they eliminated one meander (plus El Cortijo station, which had to be closed down).
But they could improve more sections if they wanted to.
That's why I mentioned Rincón de Soto, by the way.

And that's why the Navarre line is faster, except if you go to Bilbao, and with the bonus of serving two bigger cities than Logroño (Pamplona, and Vitoria).


----------



## eumeo_

Talgo Avril and a Talgo Series 730 (the only hybrid HST in the world that I'm aware of), at Burgos station, in northern Spain:


----------



## M-NL

Oh dear. Why is it that with a lot of the newer high speed trains with power cars the body lines of the power cars and the intermediate cars don't line up?

For the Avril it could be, because it is still just a prototype, but for most other trains there is no excuse. And the list is getting longer: S130, S730, TGV duplex, Avelia Liberty. The funny thing is there are plenty of HSTs with power cars that do line up: S102, ETR500, ICE1/2, single deck TGVs. All of them seem have in common that they are older models.

It doesn't make sense to me, because the mismatch in shape can't be good for aerodynamics either. And better aerodynamics means it takes less power for high speeds. Is it really that difficult to design the rear of the power car or the front of the first intermediate car so that the different shapes blend, like they did with single deck TGVs or the S102?


----------



## wbrm

Cost cutting in favour of already homologated/engineered powercars?


----------



## 437.001

*Madrid-Galicia HSL*

An AVE from Ourense rushes through A Gudiña on a service bound for Madrid Chamartin.


----------



## 437.001

*(Madrid-)Toledo-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*

Here we see a class 730 train at Plasencia station, and also somewhere on the HSL between Plasencia and Cáceres, doing some tests,


----------



## gincan

Finally the complete insanity of building a train station on the wrong side of Reus airport has finally ended. Anyone with half a functioning braincell understand the only logical location of the station is right on top of the crossing rail line. Since everything in Spain takes 10-20 years, we can assume this train station will open in the 2030s.


----------



## 437.001

gincan said:


> Finally the complete insanity of building a train station on the wrong side of Reus airport has finally ended. Anyone with half a functioning braincell understand the only logical location of the station is right on top of the crossing rail line. Since everything in Spain takes 10-20 years, we can assume this train station will open in the 2030s.


Oh, wait, waaaaaait... it's not over, I'm afraid.
Now there are some people claiming that now that they build this line, they have to close the classic line because "it spoils the seafront".
Just like they did at Salou and Cambrils.
It's maddening.


----------



## 437.001

*Rolling stock*

Class 730 trains are being retrofitted.


----------



## [email protected]




----------



## 437.001

*(Madrid-)Toledo-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*

Electrification poles already visible in the vicinity of *Mérida* station.
Click on the links to watch.



nuevaciudad said:


> View attachment 3199690
> 
> 
> View attachment 3199692


----------



## doc7austin

Another ride on a Talgo 350 High-Speed Train from Madrid-Atocha to Alicante.







Enjoy!


----------



## 437.001

OOPS!










Source: *Un tren de Ouigo arranca la catenaria en Aragón, corta la línea y afecta a 5.000 viajeros (heraldo.es)*


----------



## Stuu

That's a lot of catenary to bring down. Don't think I have ever seen it on that scale


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## 437.001

bruno amsterdamski said:


> Is there any news about opening dates for...?:


Overall, the problem stays the same - too many HSL's left to open (totally or one particular phase, small as it may be), too much pressure from everywhere.
It's like having many arms pulling you towards many different directions.



bruno amsterdamski said:


> Atocha-Chamartin tunnel


I guess they're trying to find a date.
For what I know, they probably want to open it alongside some other HSL opening (we guess the Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL, which is also finished and doing test runs since forever).
They're having trouble with sending certain high-speed services to Chamartín even temporarily due to regional pressures, as everybody wants Atocha, whereas Chamartín, while closer to the business area, is much further away from that place.

But as always, it is finished but they don't seem to find a date to open it due to the disruption it will cause to some routes until the underground Atocha platforms get built and open, and there's no avoiding that, I'm afraid.
But voices say this time it should _"really, really"_ happen.



bruno amsterdamski said:


> Valencia-Alicante


It's actually not the whole of Valencia-Alicante, but Valencia-Xativa-La Encina (La Encina-Alicante has been open for many years now, it opened in 2013, if I remember well).
No date for Valencia-Xativa-La Encina yet, it will still take a lot of time (years), as that involves the reopening of the old classic line (which is very advanced), and then the change of gauge and electrification of the high-speed line, which is now in Iberian gauge and 3kV.



bruno amsterdamski said:


> Orihuela-Murcia


I think they're doing test runs already.
Situation a bit unclear due to the sheer scale of the works at Murcia station, will check and keep you up to date later.


----------



## 437.001

I edited a bit more for completion, bruno_amsterdamski.

So if you want to re-read it, you might find extra info.


----------



## bruno amsterdamski

437.001 said:


> But as always, it is finished but they don't seem to find a date to open it due to the disruption it will cause to some routes until the underground Atocha platforms get built and open, and there's no avoiding that, I'm afraid.


OK. I understand some temporary inconvenience but after that it would be possible to have direct connections like Barcelona/Malaga/Valencia - La Coruna. Or it is not planned and all lines will be "Madrid-centric" ?



437.001 said:


> No date for Valencia-Xativa-La Encina yet, it will still take a lot of time (years), as that involves the reopening of the old classic line (which is very advanced), and then the change of gauge and electrification of the high-speed line, which is now in Iberian gauge and 3kV.


That I do not understand. Could you elaborate on it? What is exact dependency of new line on old one?


----------



## 437.001

bruno amsterdamski said:


> OK. I understand some temporary inconvenience but after that it would be possible to have direct connections like Barcelona/Malaga/Valencia - La Coruna. Or it is not planned and all lines will be "Madrid-centric" ?


It looks like in the beginning, it would be like Valencia-Chamartín-Ourense for an AVE (or Corunna, Vigo, etc for an Alvia) or Alicante-Chamartín-Leon for an AVE (or Gijon,Santander, etc for an Alvia), or (if the Burgos HSL opens at the same time) Orihuela-Chamartín-Burgos (or Bilbao, San Sebastian/Irun for an Alvia), or other intermediate options from these two linking corridors (east HSL and north-northwest HSL), the lines to Andalusia and Barcelona being initially left out in order to avoid extra disruption.

That's what they seem to be going after, initially.

The Andalusia HSL trains (this includes Toledo) wouldn't start through service initially, to avoid complications (different signalling on the Andalusia HSL, which is older than the rest).

And the Barcelona HSL is physically not connected to the Atocha-Chamartín tunnel yet (works have started to connect them, but only just).

The problem is twofold.

On one hand, the Atocha surface bay platforms are getting close to saturation, so it is difficult to take four tracks out of service and demolish them to build the low-level through platforms just below and then reconstruct the bay platforms, as this takes away precious capacity from Atocha station.

On the other, depending on which services you transfer to Chamartín, that might mean less passengers during the works (which will be lengthy), and the obvious complaints from the "losing" line (that is, the one which gets its Madrid terminus transferred temporarily to Chamartín), passengers, politicians, press, etc. So it's not an easy decision to make.



bruno amsterdamski said:


> That I do not understand. Could you elaborate on it? What is exact dependency of new line on old one?


The old classic line between La Encina and Moixent had been closed many years ago (tracks and electrification lifted), when the HSL section opened between Xativa and La Encina in Iberian gauge and 3kV, so it's being rebuilt now, with a few new touches to upgrade it where possible (a tunnel has had to be rebuilt, an entirely new tunnel has had to be bored to avoid a coincidence of alignments between HSL and reopened old classic line, also new bridges here and there, with trenches and embankments being completely reviewed). The section of the classic line between Xativa and Moixent was left open, but for the gauge-change it has had to be upgraded too (it's back in service in that section, which has Cercanías service between Moixent and Valencia).

The reopening of the classic line on La Encina-Moixent is compulsory to keep the service going on the Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante-Murcia regional and long-distance corridor (Euromed and Talgos, mainly), because otherwise the line closure for the gauge and electrification change would be compulsory, and it's a busy line.


----------



## 437.001

*Orihuela-Murcia-Lorca-Almeria HSL*

By clicking on the links below you'll get to see the state of the works at Murcia station, which is being put underground and expanded, with more platforms.
Some of them will be bay platforms, and are rather advanced.
The through platforms are much less advanced.
At the moment, Murcia has only railway service in the direction of Orihuela/Alicante (and Cartagena too? can't remember that particular bit). The line to Lorca/Aguilas is closed for works, and the line to Cieza-Chinchilla-Albacete is closed for works between Archena-Fortuna station and Murcia station. These works include a tunnel between Murcia station and Alcantarilla, to eliminate level crossings and the barrier effect of the railway.

Test runs between Orihuela and Murcia seem to have started or to be about to start, with an initial opening date for Orihuela-Murcia high-speed services (hence AVE Madrid-Murcia direct services) in Autumn 2022.



schrodingerdog said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1521828897461239808





z0ltan said:


> Tren BT de Adif llegando a Murcia AV
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525011380016926720
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1525040134684655616


----------



## [email protected]




----------



## davide84

According to Ferrovie.it quoting ILSA/Iryo Facebook page, 5 ETR.1000 trainsets are circulating in Spain right now for training the drivers.









Ferrovie.it - Prove di Frecciarossa 1000 in Spagna con Iryo


Si avvicina il debutto dei "Frecciarossa spagnoli", previsto per il prossimo autunno. Con un post...




www.ferrovie.it


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## 437.001

*Rumour*

What will open this year (allegedly):

-Orihuela-Murcia HSL (with part of the underground platforms at Murcia station).
-Venta de Baños/Palencia-Burgos (including the chord allowing Palencia-Burgos high-speed services).
-Madrid Chamartín-Torrejón de Velasco (by-passing Atocha station, the underground Atocha platforms will be built later).
-Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida-Badajoz (in Iberian gauge, with parts in single track, and, for now, in diesel mode).

🔼 🔼 🔼
No official dates yet, but those are more than ready.


----------



## 437.001

davide84 said:


>


Why does the one on the right have a nose and the two on the left haven't? 🤪


----------



## davide84

Not sure about it, but I have the impression that it is just a drawing. Some have it, some haven't, does not even seem to be related to the production batch...


----------



## AlbertJP

Stuu said:


> Have they started work on the connection to the Basque Y at Vitoria/Gasteiz?


It appears it isn't decided yet whether the existing railway station will be kept, or whether an entirely new underground station will be constructed north of the city centre, rerouting all trains and providing a shorter connection to the Basque Y. This means that San Sebastián will be the only station that will be ready soon-ish, preventing the Y from coming into use unless a temporary station gets built in Bilbao.


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Have they started work on the connection to the Basque Y at Vitoria/Gasteiz?


Not yet.

At the moment, the most active works are:

1) between Navalmoral and Badajoz (the unfinished parts of it, which won't keep the line from opening this July 2022).
2) between Orihuela and Murcia (to be opened later this 2022).
3) between Moixent and La Encina on the classic line, that has to be reopened to change the gauge of the HSL between Xàtiva and La Encina, and connect the HSL from Valencia to Xàtiva, hence fully connecting through a HSL Valencia with Alicante and Murcia. Should open by 2023.
4) between Murcia and Lorca, and also between Pulpi and Almeria..
5) between Taboadela and Ourense (Galicia HSL - very short section that doesn't keep the line from running).
6) between La Robla and Pola de Lena (Pajares base tunnels. Finishing touches, should open by 2023).

The Basque Y keeps on going with its works, but at a lesser pace, at the moment.
And then there's the Puigdelfí chord (next to Camp de Tarragona), which is finished or as good as, but doesn't open due to lack of rolling stock.


----------



## TER200

377t should be the empty weight, 410 the maximum weight when loaded.


----------



## 437.001

TER200 said:


> 377t should be the empty weight, 410 the maximum weight when loaded.


???


----------



## TER200

Take the weight of the empty train, add the passengers (and crew) and you get the weight of a loaded train. And with 24 axles, the maximum weight of an AGV fully loaded should be about 408 T.


----------



## M-NL

If the empty weight is 377t and the maximum loaded weight is 408t, that leaves 31t of loading capacity that has to be shared by 442 seated passengers, a 300 liter water tank in every car and some weight for other equipment/stock. That would mean an average passenger including baggage may only weigh around 65 kg. That seems a bit low to me. And I'm not even considering a 100+% load factor.


----------



## 437.001

TER200 said:


> Take the weight of the empty train, add the passengers (and crew) and you get the weight of a loaded train. And with 24 axles, the maximum weight of an AGV fully loaded should be about 408 T.


Yes, alright, but I really do not understand why are you talking about this.
Were you quoting someone?


----------



## TER200

Wrong topic maybe, the discussion was on the Japan tpic (so off-topic anyway). I was answering people who could not decide if the AGV was 377 or 410 tonnes.


----------



## 437.001

*News

(Madrid-)Toledo-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*



Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida-Badajoz now open.






Source: *Raquel Sánchez anuncia que el 19 de julio se pondrá en servicio la línea de alta velocidad en Extremadura | Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana (mitma.gob.es)* 

Rather limited service, for now, as the line is far from finished...

*Long-distance services*

-1 Alvia Madrid Chamartin-Badajoz and vv (with a class 730) in replacement of the current Intercity (with a Talgo+diesel loco), best travel time 4h15min (saves some 50 min end-to-end).
-1 Intercity Madrid Chamartin-Badajoz and vv (with a Talgo+diesel loco), best travel time around 4h30min (saves 40/50min end-to-end).
Calling at Madrid Atocha Cercanías, Leganés, Torrijos, Talavera, Oropesa de Toledo, Navalmoral, Monfragüe, Cáceres, Mérida, Badajoz (not sure the Alvia calls at each of these).

Both run all the way on the HSL between Monfragüe and Badajoz.


*Regional services*

-1 MD (with DMU class 598/599) Madrid Chamartin-Mérida-Zafra-Sevilla Santa Justa/Huelva and vv (splitting/joining at Zafra, saves 35/40min end-to-end)
-1 MD Madrid-Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida (with DMU class 598/599). Saves some 40/50min end-to-end.
-1 MD Plasencia-Cáceres-Mérida-Zafra-Sevilla Santa Justa (with DMU class 598/599), extending it from its current terminus at Cáceres (saves some 40min end-to-end).

All run between Plasencia and Mérida on the HSL.
These trains are strong contenders for conversion into Alvia in the coming years.


*Classic line*

-1 MD Madrid Chamartín-Plasencia-Cáceres and vv on the classic line via Cañaveral.
-Connections at Mérida station between Regional Badajoz-Villanueva de la Serena (and vv) and Intercity Madrid-Badajoz and vv (for Madrid-Villanueva de la Serena trips).
-Connections at Mërida station between Regional/MD trains to/from Zafra, Cabeza del Buey, Puertollano (and vv), and the new Alvia Madrid-Badajoz and vv.

More as soon as I get more info.


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## clickgr

437.001 said:


> Calling at Madrid Atocha Cercanías, Leganés, Torrijos, Talavera, Oropesa de Toledo, Navalmoral, Monfragüe, Cáceres, Mérida, Badajoz (*not sure the Alvia calls at each of these**)*.


Yes it does according to Renfe website for the ALVIA - 00194 schedule.


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## JumpUp

Two questions:

Will the old railway-line between Mérida and Plasencia still have passenger-trains on it's complete lenght?
Is there a bypass-line around Mérida? Google maps indicates that there is one, but it isn't finished yet - when will it be finished?


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## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> Two questions:
> 
> Will the old railway-line between Mérida and Plasencia still have passenger-trains on it's complete length?


For the time being yes, although the stretch between Aljucén (next to Mérida) and Cáceres should close, authorities say.

The classic line between Plasencia and Cáceres will stay open.



JumpUp said:


> Is there a bypass-line around Mérida? Google maps indicates that there is one, but it isn't finished yet - when will it be finished?


We don't know yet.
It won't be used a lot until there's the need for a fast Madrid-Lisbon and vv service.
For now, there's little use for it, as all trains need to enter Mërida station in order to pick extra passengers.


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## AlbertJP

See Línea de alta velocidad mixta Madrid-Lisboa (in Spanish). According to the drawings (below "Plasencia-Badajoz") the old line south of Cáceres will be dismantled and the bypass around Aljucén opened in 'phase 2' which is being built.


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## 437.001

*News

Venta de Baños-Burgos-Vitoria HSL*

HSL section between Venta de Baños and Burgos now inaugurated.
Also the Magaz chord to allow direct HSR services Leon-Palencia-Burgos. 
Revenue service on Venta de Baños-Burgos starts tomorrow (but not on Palencia-Burgos, see below).





Source: *Adif AV convierte a Burgos en el nodo de conexión de la alta velocidad con el norte del país - Adif - AV - Adif (adifaltavelocidad.es)*



*Services:

Madrid-Burgos-Basque Country

-2 Alvia Madrid Chamartin-San Sebastian (one Monday to Sunday, the other Monday to Friday and then Sunday), best travel time 4h56min.*
Calling at Segovia-Guiomar (except one which is non-stop), Valladolid, Burgos, Miranda de Ebro, Vitoria, Zumarraga, and Tolosa (except one which is non-stop).
Connection to Irun via Cercanías, connection to Hendaye via Euskotren (or Cercanías to Irun and then Euskotren to Hendaye).

*-1 Alvia Madrid Chamartin-Irun (Monday to Sunday), best travel time 5h22min.*
Calling at Segovia-Guiomar, Valladolid, Burgos, Miranda de Ebro, Vitoria, Zumarraga, Tolosa, San Sebastian.
Coupled to a Madrid-Bilbao.
Does NOT reach Hendaye.

*-2 Alvia Madrid Chamartin-Bilbao Abando (one Monday to Sunday, the other Monday to Saturday), best travel time 4h32min.*
Calling at Segovia-Guiomar, Valladolid, Burgos, Miranda de Ebro, and Llodio.
One of them (the Monday to Sunday one) coupled to a Madrid-Irun.

*-1 AVE Madrid Chamartin-Burgos (Monday to Sunday), best travel time 1h33min.*
Calling only at Valladolid.


*Basque Country-Burgos-Madrid

-3 Alvia San Sebastian-Madrid (one Monday to Friday, the second only on Sundays, the third Monday to Sunday), best travel time 4h48min.*
Two (the first two) calling at Tolosa, Zumarraga, Vitoria, Miranda de Ebro, Burgos, and Valladolid.
The third one, which will be coupled to a Bilbao-Madrid at Miranda de Ebro, calling at Zumarraga, Vitoria, Miranda de Ebro, Burgos, Valladolid, and Segovia-Guiomar.
Connection for the second and third Alvias (not the first one as it departs at 05:00am), from Irun via Cercanías, connection from Hendaye via Euskotren (or Euskotren to Irun and then Cercanías to San Sebastian).

*-1 Alvia Irun-Madrid Chamartin (Monday to Sunday), best travel time 5h11min.*
Calling at San Sebastian, Tolosa, Zumarraga, Vitoria, Miranda de Ebro, Burgos, Valladolid, and Segovia-Guiomar.

*-1 AVE Burgos-Madrid Chamartin, best travel time 1h32min (Monday to Sunday). *
Calling only at Valladolid.

*-2 Alvia Bilbao Abando-Madrid Chamartin (one Monday to Sunday, the other Monday to Friday and then Sundays), best travel time 4h28min.*
Calling at Llodio, Miranda de Ebro, Burgos, Valladolid, and Segovia-Guiomar.
One (the second one) will be coupled to a San Sebastian-Madrid at Miranda de Ebro.


*Services via Burgos to/from Barcelona*

-This opening also affects the travel times of the trains *Alvia Barcelona-Coruña*, *Alvia Barcelona-Vigo*, and *Alvia Barcelona-Salamanca*. On paper also *Alvia Barcelona-Gijón*, but that one's still suspended due to Covid restrictions.
Timetables for Barcelona trains are still to appear.
The Barcelona trains will continue to run on the classic line, for now.
Looks that they're waiting for train drivers to be homologated for the line.


----------



## 437.001

This is how the HSR network looks like now.









Source: *Spain High Speed Rail - Alta velocidad ferroviaria en España - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre* 
Image by *HrAd*


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## Amexpat

Are the Portuguese working on a connection from Lisbon to Badajoz? A Lisbon-Madrid high speed line would be great.


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## M-NL

The network looks like a star with Madrid as the center. 
Now it wouldn't make sense to add lines through the many low inhabited areas Spain has, but could more connections to the Atlantic coast and something like a high speed line along the east and south coast be viable?


----------



## AlbertJP

The connections to the Atlantic coast are under construction.

And there are multiple projects going on along the Mediterranean coast, but I think they don't all count as high-speed.


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## Suburbanist

It is safe to say that, now, Spain has a better HSR network in Europe than Italy.


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## davide84

It is even better than it looks on the map, since Italy has two big issues:

HS within the city is a mess: slow and badly designed in a way that destroys connections with ragional traffic
the service model is getting worse, with longer travel times and less structured timetables
The latest news is that Milano Centrale station is declared "full" and as official strategic solution they have decided that trains to and from Venice will not stop there anymore to free tracks.
More details in the Italian topic, if you're interested...


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## Stuu

M-NL said:


> The network looks like a star with Madrid as the center.
> Now it wouldn't make sense to add lines through the many low inhabited areas Spain has, but could more connections to the Atlantic coast and something like a high speed line along the east and south coast be viable?


Barcelona to Valencia is already 200km/h on the conventional network, Valencia to Alicante and Orihuela to Almeria are both under construction.

Leon towards Gijon and (Burgos)Vitoria-Gasteiz to Bilbao are also under construction


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## Henk Angenent

Amexpat said:


> Are the Portuguese working on a connection from Lisbon to Badajoz? A Lisbon-Madrid high speed line would be great.


Yes, it is supposed to open in 2023:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478710136021655552


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## 437.001

This is how the HSR network looks like now.









Source: *Spain High Speed Rail - Alta velocidad ferroviaria en España - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre* 
Image by *HrAd*



And this is how the HSR service network looks like (AVE/Alvia/Euromed/Avant/TGV/Ouigo/Intercity).









Source: *High speed and mixed high-speed services via conventional lines in Spain - AVE - Wikipedia* 
Image by *Manchego*



🔼 🔼 🔼
Well, almost.

As the following lines should be in red:
-Seville to Cadiz (far too many saturation points on the line, mixing with Cercanías on most of the lentgh, also with freight, Iberian gauge and 3kV, even on paper the 200km/h can be reached between Utrera and Jerez).
-Valencia to Castellon (same, Iberian gauge mixed with standard gauge 3rd rail, 3kV, and mixing with Cercanías along the whole of it, and also a lot of freight) .
-Camp de Tarragona to Tortosa (Camp de Tarragona to Cambrils should stay in blue, as that's in Iberian gauge, 25kV and no mixed traffic. Instead, Cambrils to Tortosa should be in red, as there's a lot of regional rail, and freight, too. The problem's that the map in that area would look too cramped if shown accurately).
-Plasencia to Badajoz (this is still too raw to be called a full high-speed line, even if it's being built to 300km/h standards. To begin with, the line is still being electrified, so all trains run on diesel mode, and for the time being, it will be in Iberian gauge, and with mixity with regional rail).
Not sure about Ourense-Santiago, although that's probably okay in blue, even though it's still in Iberian gauge, 
And also not sure about Vigo-Pontevedra-Santiago-Coruña, as even though 200km/h can be reached, that's a mixed line, with freight and regional trains, and the lot is in Iberian gauge and electrified at 25kV


And there's also the following missing services (which all should be in red on the map):
-Valencia to Villena (that's the Euromed, which I don't know why it isn't called Alvia -same level of service, same speed, same fares).
-Orihuela to Murcia (it doesn't have the Euromed just yet, but it has fast Talgos to Barcelona, which can reach 200km/h, although they don't between Orihuela and Murcia).
-Ourense to Vigo via Guillarei (the Alvia Barcelona-Vigo does not run via Santiago-Pontevedra).


----------



## 437.001

M-NL said:


> The network looks like a star with Madrid as the center.


Which is only natural, when you have the capital and largest city right in the centre of the country.



M-NL said:


> Now it wouldn't make sense to add lines through the many low inhabited areas Spain has, but could more connections to the Atlantic coast and something like a high speed line along the east and south coast be viable?


This is a bit of a long answer.
So, I'll come to that a bit later.



AlbertJP said:


> The connections to the Atlantic coast are under construction.


There's the Basque Y, and the Pajares tunnels.
And a HSR section between Castejon de Ebro and Pamplona, that's being built by the Navarre government.



AlbertJP said:


> And there are multiple projects going on along the Mediterranean coast, but I think they don't all count as high-speed.


It depends on where one sets the measuring bar.

If we understand "high-speed" for "anything over 200km/h", then yes they all are.
If we understand "high-speed" for "300km/h or more", then they're not.


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## 437.001

M-NL said:


> Now it wouldn't make sense to add lines through the many low inhabited areas Spain has, but could more connections to the Atlantic coast and something like a high speed line along the east and south coast be viable?


You talk here about two very specific areas in the country, the second of which can be split into three different areas, and which deserve to be dealt with at length.

So I'll split the answer in several posts...


----------



## 437.001

*A) Atlantic coast*

The problem with railway in Spain's northern Atlantic coast is that it is terribly expensive.
In the beginning, it all started with the unlucky decision to allow the construction of a network of different metric-gauge lines along the coast, instead of them being in Iberian gauge (I'm not even mentioning standard gauge, that's part of the story of Spain's problems with international railways, but it is not key to understand this).

This choice of the metric gauge has meant lower speeds, bad connections, and finally, most people abandoning the railway for the road (but boy are these lines beautiful, although that's a different matter when you talk about actual transport).

Then there's geography, as northern Spain, all of it, from Hendaye to Ferrol, is separated from central Spain by the Cantabrian Range, which makes things even more difficult, particularly when you know that central Spain is a plateau, so the differences in height between places such as Leon, Palencia, Burgos, Miranda de Ebro, Vitoria or Pamplona, versus their coastal or Atlantic-oriented counterparts, which would be Ponferrada, Oviedo/Gijón, Torrelavega/Santander, Bilbao, and San Sebastian/Hendaye, are very important indeed.

All that has led to really bad rail connections, with very bendy lines and long travel times, which back in the 19th century all were a feat of engineering, but right now are more of a hindrance, in terms of speed and operation, which is particularly bad for the northern regions, the coastal Basque Country (Bilbao, San Sebastian), Cantabria (Santander, Torrelavega), Asturias (Oviedo, Gijón, Avilés), and northern Galicia (Ribadeo, Viveiro, Ferrol - the rest of Galicia being historically affected by that too, but since the Galicia HSL opened, that's starting to become a thing of the past).

The problem is that the ruggedness of the area makes costs skyrocket, and that's to be added to the fact that coastal areas have a higher population density, the north of Spain being prone to very dense cities due to their mountainous surroundings, but at the same time, with a lot of disperse rural habitat, so when you add it all up, one suddenly realises how it is really, really expensive to build a line along the northern Atlantic coast.
It's no wonder that motorway A-8 was one of the last two core motorways to be finished in its whole length, either (keep on reading further down and you'll find about the other one, by the way).
And it was because of its technical difficulty, not so much because of centralism.

So the complication lies twofold, in both the central Spain-northern Atlantic coast, and all along the northern Atlantic coastline.


----------



## 437.001

*B) Mediterranean coast. East (French border and Barcelona to Valencia)*

This is an entirely different story.
Here there's a lot that is already in service, and a lot which is in works, too.
The part between Perpignan in France and Barcelona is a full high speed line that is in service, although the international bit is quite underused despite its potential (but that's another story).
One could argue that a connection between Mollet and Castellbisbal allowing for trains by-passing Barcelona would be interesting, but the fact remains that the area of Girona/Figueres has not a lot of traffic towards the rest of the country and instead it has a lot of commuting to/from Barcelona, so for now that remains not a priority.
The area is also connected to France in standard gauge for freight, but the use of the HSL between Figueres and Perpignan, which has relatively steep gradients, makes it less attractive than the classic line (and also there's the question of the cost of slots/paths for freight, which remain expensive, it seems).
That said, only the port of Barcelona is more or less connected to France (and not completely), with intermediate freight terminals (Castellbisbal, La Llagosta, Granollers Centre, Girona, Celrà, Vilamalla) largely underused. But here we're moving from high-speed rail to freight, and that's off-topic, more or less.

Between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona the high-speed line is in use, and it's one of the busiest bits of the whole of Spain's HSR network.
There's talk of a freight line, but that's off-topic here.
What is less of an off-topic are the bad connections of Camp de Tarragona station (which is a parkway station), and the whole area of Tarragona/Reus/Valls/Salou/Cambrils, because that may affect the number of passengers, the area is very road-oriented even if there's a relatively dense classic railway network.

Between Camp de Tarragona and Valencia, the classic line has been double-tracked, with new stretches being built here and there for capacity and speed, but allowing 200-220km/h at most.
Certain people claim that a full high-speed line should be built, but the fact remains that there's a lot that's been spent on the classic line upgrades, and that the current line is not saturated, exception made of the area between Castellon and Valencia.
Besides, the population density is not the lowest in the country, which complicates things.
Lastly, there's a chord that's finished but sees not trains yet next to Camp de Tarragona station (the chord avoids it), which will allow services Zaragoza-Lleida-Castellón-Valencia (or potentially Bilbao/Hendaye-Zaragoza-Lleida-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante-Murcia-etc). It will start service as soon as Adif and Renfe want to, but for some reason, they don't seem very interested (Renfe has lack of rolling stock, that's true).

The area around Valencia has some issues, the main one being that the duo of next-door stations (Valencia Nord, and its HSR counterpart Valencia Joaquin Sorolla) are both termini, meaning that through services have to reverse. There have been, every now and then, attempts to create long-distance services by-passing them, making them call at the smaller Valencia Cabanyal station, but they've been unsuccessful, in part because Valencia Cabanyal has only two platforms and is on a line with a lot of trains, so dwell times should be reduced to a minimum, and in part because Valencia Cabanyal has very bad connections (no metro or tram at the door, the Valencia urban transit network being not very well designed).
So there's the potential for a future HSL between Valencia and Castellon, and a through tunnel for both HSR and Cercanías, the problem it its cost (huge), and where to put it in the middle of a metropolitan area which has some delicate environmental points, and also a significant agricultural sector...


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## 437.001

*C) Mediterranean coast. Southeast (Valencia to Murcia and Almeria)*

Between Villena-AV and Alicante, and between Alicante and Orihuela (and by the end of the year, probably Murcia), there's a HSL in use.
It is an exclusive HSL between Villena and Alicante and Elche, but the bit between Elche and Orihuela (and Murcia) is designed for mixed use (HSR/Cercanías/freight).
There's a HSL under construction (for many years now) between Valencia and La Encina, just north of Villena, which is in works between Valencia and Xativa, and in service (but in Iberian gauge and 3kV) between Xativa and La Encina.
To open it completely, the bit of the old classic line between Moixent and La Encina, which was closed years ago as it was replaced by the HSL, is being reconstructed, and it looks like it will open by next year, allowing then for the change of gauge and reelectrification of the HSL between Moixent and La Encina.
This part will significantly reduce travel times between Barcelona/Valencia and Alicante/Murcia/Almeria, and is key to better connect the east and southeast of Spain, two of the most populated areas in the country.

Lastly, there's the fact that the HSL between Valencia and Alicante does not follow the coast, hence leaving places such as Gandia, Denia, Calpe, Altea, Benidorm, etc, HSR-less, or in some cases, rail-less.
The problem is that stuffing a HSR in some of those areas, which are densely built and, south of Denia, mountainous, would be rather complicated, and the main need there is a decent commuter rail connecting to both Valencia and Alicante, and that's another story.
Same goes for Torrevieja, by the way.

Between Murcia and Cartagena, there's a plan to build a HSL in combination with an upgrade of the current classic line, but that's too foggy yet.

Between Murcia and Pulpi, just south of Lorca, the line has recently been closed to upgrade it to HSR standards, although it will keep the mixed use with freight and Cercanías.
That includes putting Murcia station and Lorca-Sutullena station underground. Also in the town of Alcantarilla, although in that case it will have a new surface station.
The whole of it will be electrified, including the branch line between Pulpi and Aguilas, which will have its gauge changed.

Between Pulpi and Almeria, a new HSL is being built from scratch, there used to be no railway line there.
The bits between Vera and Nijar are more advanced, the bits between Pulpi and Vera, and between Nijar and Almeria are less advanced.
Some preliminary works have been done at Almeria.
This will be a rather important line, as it will close the missing railway gap between Murcia and Andalusia, existing since the closure of the Almendricos-Guadix line (closed since 1985, although every now and then there's talk of a reopening, which would necessitate extra works since the platform has been built on in places).
It wil also improve the export of agricultural products from Almeria, and three freight terminals are planned there for that purpose.

It will also be game-changing for the Almeria province, which has always had really very bad railway connections to pretty much everywhere.


----------



## 437.001

*D) Mediterranean coast. South (Almeria to Malaga and Algeciras)*

This is the most complicated bit.
Also the least developed, rail-wise... but in places, and depending on how you look at it.

There's the part between Almeria and Granada, which has a classic line that will probably be upgraded and electrified (re-electrified from 3kV to 25kV for the stretch between Almeria and Hueneja), although some voices claim for a full HSL, but that would involve something similar to the Pajares tunnels, so it would be too costly.

Then there's the Cordoba to Antequera and Malaga HSL (fully in service), with its branch between Antequera and Granada (which has a short missing bit around Loja due to geological issues, and that makes high-speed trains run on a short stretch of classic line, and which also has significant parts in single-track between Antequera and Granada, but prepared for a future double-tracking).

Then there's the Antequera to Algeciras classic line, very bendy and still not electrified, although it's being upgraded, with electrification in mind.

And then, there's the coast.
And that is the most difficult bit.
This was the last bit of Spain's core motorway network to be finished (A-7 between Motril and Adra).
The area between Almeria and Malaga is rather mountainous, as that's the foothill of Sierra Nevada, the tallest mountain range in mainland Spain, which separates Granada and Antequera on one hand, from Almeria, Malaga, and Algeciras on the other.

Building a railway line along the coast (not to talk about a HSL), would be incredibly expensive.
Between Almeria and Malaga, the coastal area is mostly mountainous, even if it has gaps between Roquetas de Mar and Adra, around Motril, and around Torre del Mar.
Besides, in places, it is rather overbuilt, particularly between Nerja and Malaga.
Between Almeria and Adra, there's also the "sea of plastic", the huge area of greenhouses where vegetables are grown and then sold all across Europe.

Then, on the section between Malaga and Algeciras, the Costa del Sol, it is extremely difficult to build a railway line, let alone a HSL, due to the continuous of housing.
Which raises the question of the need of a HSL over an actual commuter rail line, and there's no way the two could merge in a single line due to the very different speeds.
Lastly, around Algeciras there is a rather industrialised area, which is badly connected, but the problem is there's no way freight rail can be directed towards the Mediterranean coast due to the metropolitan nature of the Costa del Sol.

The contradiction is, some of the most populated towns without a railway line of Spain are here.
Marbella, with a population of around 150,000, the largest rail-less town in mainland Spain (and one of Europe's largest ones).
And there are also Mijas, Estepona, La Linea de la Concepcion, Rincon de la Victoria, Velez-Malaga, Motril, El Ejido, Roquetas de Mar... all with a population over 50,000, and without a railway line.

So that's the most complicated bit.


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## alserrod

M-NL said:


> The network looks like a star with Madrid as the center.
> Now it wouldn't make sense to add lines through the many low inhabited areas Spain has, but could more connections to the Atlantic coast and something like a high speed line along the east and south coast be viable?


There are some lines on working but not to inhabited areas.
Nevertheless, that map is for 300km/h lines (even Iberian or standard gauge). There are trains that can shift from HSL to classic lines. Departing from Madrid, it is easy to see that most of trains are HS-full but some destinations remains as HS + classic.

I would bet the point must be non-Madrid trains. There are few of them as long distance. All of them are Barcelona-Valencia-XXXXX or Barcelona-Zaragoza-XXXX (driving on HS at the exit of Barcelona and on additional lines)


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## JumpUp

Hey,

some questions on Spanish High-Speed Rail:

1. Is the "Valencia - Xàtiva" High-Speed-Rail already in service today? If yes, in iberian or standard gauge? (the situation between La Encina and Xàtiva is more complicated, I know that!)
2. Is the Córdoba bypass already open (for direct high-Speed trains Málaga - Sevilla without Córdoba-stop)?
3. Is the classic Málaga - Sevilla railway back in service? It was destroyed of storm some years ago. If yes, what segments of the (only partly built) direct high-Speed-Rail does the classic line now use?

THANKS!


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## Eloi von Grauwolf

JumpUp said:


> Hey,
> 
> some questions on Spanish High-Speed Rail:
> 
> 1. Is the "Valencia - Xàtiva" High-Speed-Rail already in service today? If yes, in iberian or standard gauge? (the situation between La Encina and Xàtiva is more complicated, I know that!)
> 2. Is the Córdoba bypass already open (for direct high-Speed trains Málaga - Sevilla without Córdoba-stop)?
> 3. Is the classic Málaga - Sevilla railway back in service? It was destroyed of storm some years ago. If yes, what segments of the (only partly built) direct high-Speed-Rail does the classic line now use?
> 
> THANKS!


1. No, Xàtiva - La Encina is what's in service (Iberian gauge, 3 kV DC). Valencia - Xàtiva is built but unused (it won't continue south until the HSL has its gauge and electrification changed).


----------



## 437.001

JumpUp said:


> some questions on Spanish High-Speed Rail:
> 
> 1. Is the "Valencia - Xàtiva" High-Speed-Rail already in service today? If yes, in iberian or standard gauge? (the situation between La Encina and Xàtiva is more complicated, I know that!)


No, between Valencia and Xativa the HSL is almost finished, but lacks the signallling.



JumpUp said:


> 2. Is the Córdoba bypass already open (for direct high-Speed trains Málaga - Sevilla without Córdoba-stop)?


No, the Almodovar del Rio chord (which is what you actually mean) is still under construction, and not really very advanced yet.



JumpUp said:


> 3. Is the classic Málaga - Sevilla railway back in service? It was destroyed of storm some years ago. If yes, what segments of the (only partly built) direct high-Speed-Rail does the classic line now use?


Yes, it is back in service.
They just recycled the segment around the broken bridge on the classic line.
And that was thanks to an agreement between the Andalusian regional government and Adif (the direct Antequera-Seville HSL, whose construction is suspended, does not belong to Adif, nor Adif wants it, other than the bit around the broken Aguadulce bridge).


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## Stuu

437.001 said:


> And that was thanks to an agreement between the Andalusian regional government and Adif (the direct Antequera-Seville HSL, whose construction is suspended, does not belong to Adif, nor Adif wants it, other than the bit around the broken Aguadulce bridge).


How was the planned to get to Seville? Would it have followed the conventional line towards Utrera or something else?


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## 437.001

Stuu said:


> How was the planned to get to Seville? Would it have followed the conventional line towards Utrera or something else?


They had this idea of reaching Seville from Marchena (westernmost point of the area where works got to start) via the Seville airport. It would have involved a long tunnel under the Alcores area (Mairena del Alcor, Alcala de Guadaira, or somewhere around those), and from the airport it would then head to Seville Santa Justa station, entering the station from the north.
But that bit never got beyond paperwork.


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## 437.001

*News

Avant Malaga-Granada *

New Avant Malaga-Granada and vv to be created from August 05, 2022. Calling at Loja.
For now, this route doesn't seem to be doing okay, but they create the third train of the day.
Let's see how it does.










Source: *Tren Granada-Málaga | La tercera frecuencia diaria Avant entre Granada y Málaga arrancará a partir del 5 de agosto | Ideal*


----------



## 437.001

And a video about this route.
Odd that it's not doing okay until now, it should be packed with tourists...


----------



## Khaul

Suburbanist said:


> It is safe to say that, now, Spain has a better HSR network in Europe than Italy.


Indeed, but far worse HSR and intercity or regional rail services in general than Italy.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> *News
> 
> Avant Malaga-Granada *
> 
> New Avant Malaga-Granada and vv to be created from August 05, 2022. Calling at Loja.
> For now, this route doesn't seem to be doing okay, but they create the third train of the day.
> Let's see how it does.
> 
> View attachment 3577489
> 
> 
> Source: *Tren Granada-Málaga | La tercera frecuencia diaria Avant entre Granada y Málaga arrancará a partir del 5 de agosto | Ideal*


It's really surprising to me that this route is not flourishing. Even times are reasonably convenient and it's certainly competitive with a car and bus. Any ideas why it might be?


----------



## Stuu

Three services a day is not very attractive, especially when there is a bus every 30 minutes. Yes the train is quicker, but it doesn't give users much flexibility. The first arrival into Granada at 1037 is a bit late too, for people travelling on business, although that is a sensible time for tourists. Will the frequency improve when Renfe get more trains?


----------



## clickgr

Exactly, that's the reason, the limited schedules per day! 

For example, I recently visited Trieste in Italy and wanted to spent a day in Venice. Even though I had my car with me, I chose to park my car in Trieste and take the train to Venice in the morning and come back on the same day in the afternoon. The main reason I did that was because I was able to choose among many different train schedules a day the most convenient one for me and being car independent. In the past I had done the same traveling from Verona to Venice and back.

With only one train per day between Malaga and Granada it is impossible to do the same and visit Granada on a day trip. You would need to stay over night and even so you need to plan your stay according to this single train schedule. If I were in that situation I would definitely preferred to drive to Granada than taking the train which limits your stay options.


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Three services a day is not very attractive, especially when there is a bus every 30 minutes. Yes the train is quicker, but it doesn't give users much flexibility. The first arrival into Granada at 1037 is a bit late too, for people travelling on business, although that is a sensible time for tourists. Will the frequency improve when Renfe get more trains?





clickgr said:


> Exactly, that's the reason, the limited schedules per day! [...]
> 
> [...] With only one train per day between Malaga and Granada it is impossible to do the same and visit Granada on a day trip. You would need to stay over night and even so you need to plan your stay according to this single train schedule. If I were in that situation I would definitely preferred to drive to Granada than taking the train which limits your stay options.


Yes, but now there are two trains per day and direction, and soon to become three.
Hopefully this will mean extra passengers.

I wonder about the advertising of the Granada-Malaga direct service.
That is a direct rail service that has never ever existed until very recently, as before HSR reached Granada it was uncompetitive against the road (bus, car).

The main issue in the background, though, is the lack of rolling stock.

Hopefully once the Avril trains get the green light to start operating, there will be a relief to some services, but at the same time, they are also opening new lines as well, so I'm not sure about the relief coming to each and every line, at least in the beginning, as class 130 and 730 are undergoing a retrofit.

In my view, ideally, class 120 and 121 should be withdrawn from Alvia services (or at least the important ones, such as Barcelona-Valencia, Barcelona-Bilbao, Madrid-Bilbao, and so on), and dedicated to more Avant services, or short-range Alvia services like Madrid-Salamanca.


----------



## JumpUp

Hello,

talking about Granada: Is the old iberian-gauge line Antequera - Loja (- Granada) still in use? Are there any passenger trains on it (I don't think so).


----------



## AlbertJP

According to Esquemas de vía y de velocidad de explotación – Línea de Alta Velocidad de Granada, its closure was initially being planned, but instead in 2019 it was decided to convert it to a freight line.

It looks like the MD services were cut in 2015 (found here) even though the new line didn't open until 2019, so there haven't been any passenger services for a long time.


----------



## Sunfuns

Talking about the Granada line any idea when the new Antequera city station opens? That should help a bit with extra passengers as well. As of course would more trains.


----------



## 437.001

*Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL*

Looks like, slowly, the passengers are starting to use the new services on the HSL to Burgos.

Source: *El AVE saca del coma a la estación de tren de Burgos | Noticias Diario de Burgos*

_"The AVE takes Burgos railway station out of its coma"_, says the dramatic headline.
Not entirely wrong, although it's more the increase in the number of Alvias than anything else, as for now there's just one AVE Burgos-Madrid and vv.

In Burgos it's perhaps taking longer to fill the trains than in other places, as the rail service was particularly bad, with very long gaps between trains, now these gaps have been filled, in places.
However, unlike at Leon, Valladolid or Palencia, in Burgos's case the station was moved to another location, further away from the old town (Burgos has a single-street-like urban shape, which has meant that the new station is better for some, but worse for others, as it is at the far northeastern end of the city, and the old station was at the centre-to-southwestern end of it).

By the way, the article also comments that the Alvia Barcelona-Coruña and vv and Barcelona-Vigo and vv will probably start using the HSL between Leon and Burgos in September.
However, no news about the restart of the Alvia Barcelona-Gijon and vv, some sources say "maybe 2023, once the Pajares tunnels are in service", but that's still too inconcrete.
This isn't good, as the Alvia Barcelona-Coruña and Barcelona-Vigo are not daily, they run on alternate days instead, so there is only one Alvia running between Burgos and Barcelona.
That is not so bad for Leon, Asturias or Galicia, as they have other connections to Barcelona via an interchange at Madrid (and a change from Chamartin station to Atocha station).
But it isn't very good for Burgos due to the lack of trains calling there (Burgos has a population of 180,000).

And the Alvias Barcelona-Galicia are usually rather busy, as since the pandemic started they're the only train linking directly Barcelona to many places in northwestern Spain, Burgos among them.

A partial solution might come with the separation of the Alvia Barcelona-Salamanca, which runs coupled to the Barcelona-Galicia between Burgos and Barcelona, and its repositioning to another time allowing more flexibility to the passengers.
By the way, if that doesn't happen very soon, then, once the Alvia Barcelona-Galicia (Barcelona-Coruña or Barcelona-Vigo, depending on the day) starts running on the HSL between Burgos and Leon, it would couple/decouple with the Barcelona-Salamanca at Miranda de Ebro station, unlike now which is done at Burgos station.

The article also comments on the possibity of a diametral AVE Burgos-Madrid-Alicante and/or Burgos-Madrid-Valencia, which is something that's yet to come... and which is causing a bit of a stir at Alicante and Valencia, it seems (I think I mentioned that a few posts ago).


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Talking about the Granada line any idea when the new Antequera city station opens? That should help a bit with extra passengers as well. As of course would more trains.


No news, but judging by some recent pictures, it looks rather advanced from the outside.

The main problem with it is that it has only one Iberian-gauge platform, plus a non-platformed track.
And on the Granada end, the Iberian gauge line isn't finished or connected to the Granada Iberian-gauge line, but that's less of a problem by now as there's no Iberian-gauge trains between Bobadilla or Antequera-Santa Ana and Granada.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> The main problem with it is that it has only one Iberian-gauge platform, plus a non-platformed track.
> And on the Granada end, the Iberian gauge line isn't finished or connected to the Granada Iberian-gauge line, but that's less of a problem by now as there's no Iberian-gauge trains between Bobadilla or Antequera-Santa Ana and Granada.


Sorry, I'm a bit lost here... Are you saying that the standard gauge high speed trains won't be able to stop in that station? Why do we need an Iberian gauge line between Granada and Antequera anyway?


----------



## AlbertJP

See the second image on the page I linked. A terminus for Iberian gauge trains is apparently planned in the high-speed station. Why there are no standard-gauge platforms yet, I don't know.


Sunfuns said:


> Why do we need an Iberian gauge line between Granada and Antequera anyway?


As I said, it was planned to keep it for freight. Whether any freight actually runs here at the moment, I don't know. It will probably still take a long time until the standard-gauge freight lines along the Mediterranean cost reach until here.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Sorry, I'm a bit lost here... Are you saying that the standard gauge high speed trains won't be able to stop in that station?


No. I was talking about the Iberian gauge tracks of the new Antequera station.

Not about the standard gauge tracks of the same station, which are in service, although the station doesn't seem to be finished yet, although it is visibly advanced, at least from the outside.
So high-speed trains cannot call there yet (at the existing standard gauge platforms), unless in case of some incident on the HSL I suppose.



Sunfuns said:


> Why do we need an Iberian gauge line between Granada and Antequera anyway?


Well... that's another story, and perhaps doesn't really belong in the high-speed thread.


----------



## Khaul

Stuu said:


> Three services a day is not very attractive, especially when there is a bus every 30 minutes. Yes the train is quicker, but it doesn't give users much flexibility. The first arrival into Granada at 1037 is a bit late too, for people travelling on business, although that is a sensible time for tourists. Will the frequency improve when Renfe get more trains?


Cardiff to Swansea has two trains… per hour. Renfe provides a service that is much better than 30 years ago. They fill the trains, getting a ticket usually requires a reservation and you must buy them days in advance. Renfe thus does not run at a huge operating loss, but trains are not that useful. What a waste!


----------



## JoFMO

437.001 said:


> *Venta de Baños-Burgos HSL*
> 
> Looks like, slowly, the passengers are starting to use the new services on the HSL to Burgos.
> 
> Source: *El AVE saca del coma a la estación de tren de Burgos | Noticias Diario de Burgos*
> 
> _"The AVE takes Burgos railway station out of its coma"_, says the dramatic headline.
> Not entirely wrong, although it's more the increase in the number of Alvias than anything else, as for now there's just one AVE Burgos-Madrid and vv.
> 
> In Burgos it's perhaps taking longer to fill the trains than in other places, as the rail service was particularly bad, with very long gaps between trains, now these gaps have been filled, in places.
> However, unlike at Leon, Valladolid or Palencia, in Burgos's case the station was moved to another location, further away from the old town (Burgos has a single-street-like urban shape, which has meant that the new station is better for some, but worse for others, as it is at the far northeastern end of the city, and the old station was at the centre-to-southwestern end of it).
> 
> By the way, the article also comments that the Alvia Barcelona-Coruña and vv and Barcelona-Vigo and vv will probably start using the HSL between Leon and Burgos in September.
> However, no news about the restart of the Alvia Barcelona-Gijon and vv, some sources say "maybe 2023, once the Pajares tunnels are in service", but that's still too inconcrete.
> This isn't good, as the Alvia Barcelona-Coruña and Barcelona-Vigo are not daily, they run on alternate days instead, so there is only one Alvia running between Burgos and Barcelona.
> That is not so bad for Leon, Asturias or Galicia, as they have other connections to Barcelona via an interchange at Madrid (and a change from Chamartin station to Atocha station).
> But it isn't very good for Burgos due to the lack of trains calling there (Burgos has a population of 180,000).
> 
> And the Alvias Barcelona-Galicia are usually rather busy, as since the pandemic started they're the only train linking directly Barcelona to many places in northwestern Spain, Burgos among them.
> 
> A partial solution might come with the separation of the Alvia Barcelona-Salamanca, which runs coupled to the Barcelona-Galicia between Burgos and Barcelona, and its repositioning to another time allowing more flexibility to the passengers.
> By the way, if that doesn't happen very soon, then, once the Alvia Barcelona-Galicia (Barcelona-Coruña or Barcelona-Vigo, depending on the day) starts running on the HSL between Burgos and Leon, it would couple/decouple with the Barcelona-Salamanca at Miranda de Ebro station, unlike now which is done at Burgos station.
> 
> The article also comments on the possibity of a diametral AVE Burgos-Madrid-Alicante and/or Burgos-Madrid-Valencia, which is something that's yet to come... and which is causing a bit of a stir at Alicante and Valencia, it seems (I think I mentioned that a few posts ago).


With the new Infrastructure to Galicia you are now so much faster from Barcelona via Madrid that I wonder, if these train via Miranda is still worth running? Even though it requires you to take the metro form Atocha to Chamartin. On the other hand there might be a lot of intermediate relations, the warrant the trains via Miranda.


----------



## jovibo

A very nice collage ....

--->

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555559816462041091
Renfe (SP)
Ouigo (SP-FR)
Avlo (SP)
Iryo (SP_IT)

Four different companies, four different trains ....


----------



## davide84

...and even the poles are colored! 

(I'm totally not used to that, I'm starting to learn that is a Spanish thing)


----------



## jovibo

davide84 said:


> ...and even the poles are colored!
> 
> (I'm totally not used to that, I'm starting to learn that is a Spanish thing)


In the first place, and if I am not mistaken, the original RENFE (the company that included all concerning rail transport, i.e., trains and structures), by European mandate, was divided into Renfe Operadora (trains) and GIF (Railway Infrastructure Manager). GIF's corporate color was blue and the posts were colored blue. Later, ADIF was created, which inherited everything related to GIF. ADIF's corporate color is green and the posts were/are colored in green. Supposedly those posts were built by GIF ....


----------



## davide84

I find it interesting because it's the first time I see this kind of bright "corporate branding" on rail infrastructure... usually the poles are just left in metal color. Two small exceptions I know from Italy:

poles painted yellow in correspondence of special equipment, but this is old installation and the usage seems to have been discontinued: Google Maps
poles painted green in Alto Adige / Südtirol special province, so that the poles better harmonize with the landscape: Google Maps however the green is a very unsaturated color


----------



## M-NL

davide84 said:


> I find it interesting because it's the first time I see this kind of bright "corporate branding" on rail infrastructure... usually the poles are just left in metal color.


Indeed, because the OHE is usually perceived as an eyesore by the general public, so you want them to blend in with the surroundings as much as possible.
But they're definitely not bare metal colour. There are either galvanised or coated. Like those Südtirolian poles German and Swedish posts also seem to have a slight greenish hue, Danish are more of a rust colour and Dutch are more of a standard greyish galvanised steel colour. But there is indeed nothing stopping you from choosing a brighter colour. Cost wise it would not make that much of a difference, because they need to be rust proved anyway.


----------



## Stuu

It's a Spanish preference for some reason. They do the same on the motorways, where bridge railings are often blue rather than galvanised which is used everywhere else


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> It's a Spanish preference for some reason.


Only on high-speed lines, or works associated to them (Barcelona Can Tunis to El Papiol line, Castellbisbal to Mollet line, as far as I'm aware).

On classic lines, or upgraded classic lines (exception made of Coruña-Santiago-Vigo Urzaiz), the posts are galvanised.



Stuu said:


> They do the same on the motorways, where bridge railings are often blue rather than galvanised which is used everywhere else


?
Can you show an example of that?


----------



## 437.001

JoFMO said:


> With the new Infrastructure to Galicia you are now so much faster from Barcelona via Madrid that I wonder, if these train via Miranda is still worth running?


Yeah, even within SSC Spain, we have some members who have a Galician upbringing but live in Barcelona who now use the interchange between Madrid Atocha and Madrid Chamartin as it is much, much faster.

On paper that train will survive, however, as it is the only direct link to Barcelona from Ponferrada, and also one of the few from Galicia to Ponferrada and Leon, and also the only one linking Galicia and Leon to the Basque Country (Vitoria) and Navarre (Pamplona), and the only surviving long-distance service in that area (Sil and Minho valleys). That line is rather scenic, by the way.



JoFMO said:


> Even though it requires you to take the metro form Atocha to Chamartin.


It's not worse than Gare de Lyon to Gare du Nord with the RER D (plus it has the back-up of metro line 1).

By the way, works have started on the initial phase to connect the Barcelona HSL to Chamartin station via the new tunnel.



JoFMO said:


> On the other hand there might be a lot of intermediate relations, that warrant the trains via Miranda.


That's it, the Barcelona-Galicia Alvias are rather busy because of that.
And once they start running on the HSL between Leon and Burgos they will become even busier.


----------



## Sunfuns

Switzerland is arguably the best in the world in terms of passenger railway frequency, punctuality and coverage. However, the country is not applicable when discussing long distance high speed rail. It is too small and not set up that way.


----------



## alserrod

Attus said:


> I think, basically everyone in Europe thinks, railways of *another country* are the best


I Agree


----------



## Khaul

Attus said:


> Railway systems are hardly comparable, since the countries themselves differ heavily. However, not mention Switzerland is surely not acceptable.


Well, I am writing about my own experience. The only train I ever used in Switzerland was the people mover in Zurich airport, and I was not that good. The point is that, for having such a tremendous HSR network, Renfe sucks.


----------



## Sallonian

Attus said:


> I think, basically everyone in Europe thinks, railways of *another country* are the best


But France has the highest rail ridership in Europe, this means they do something right


----------



## alserrod

Sallonian said:


> But France has the highest rail ridership in Europe, this means they do something right



France has the highest network
Spain has the highes high speed network

There are 4000ish km of high speed in Spain (2100 in France)
Problem in Spain is classic lines


----------



## Stuu

Sallonian said:


> But France has the highest rail ridership in Europe, this means they do something right


It has the highest passenger km, but it is way behind Germany in terms of individual journeys. That isn't surprising because France is a big place with large distances between its major cities


----------



## Muiderpoort

Sunfuns said:


> Switzerland is arguably the best in the world in terms of passenger railway frequency, punctuality and coverage. However, the country is not applicable when discussing long distance high speed rail. It is too small and not set up that way.


Zürich and Genève are the two biggest and most important cities in Switzerland. They happen to be as far apart as it gets in Switzerland, but no high speed or even an Express connection exists between the two. It would make sense to have a high speed connection between the two. 

Small countries like Belgium and Netherlands also have high speed rail where their citizens benefit from it for both domestic and international journeys. This is also applicable to Switzerland with currently high speed connections into France and potentially high speed connections into Italy in the future.


----------



## Sunfuns

Theoretically you're right, but Swiss decided long time ago that this is not necessary. Currently Zurich-Geneva, indeed the further meaningful distance in Switzerland, is 2 h 45 min by train vs ca 3h by driving so competitive enough. 

There are no cities in Switzerland in that sweet 350-700 km range for HSR. If you ask me which HSR system is the best in Europe I'd probably go with France, but Spain is not far behind and might still take the lead. Italy is good too, especially price wise. Germany is a mess and will need a lot of investment to be any good. Lately punctuality is just horrible there.


----------



## TER200

Sallonian said:


> But France has the highest rail ridership in Europe, this means they do something right


Having our major cities scattered basically as far apart as possible, so most of them are in "that sweet 350-700 km range for HSR" from that large megapolis in the middle. And indeed the TGV system works mostly well for this, low frequencies with high-capacity trains still carry a lot of people.

The German system is better for medium distances, but (and that's the subject here) bad a long distances like Hamburg to Munich, hence the lower passenger.km.


----------



## 437.001

*Rumours

Madrid-Orihuela-Murcia HSL*

Orihuela-Murcia could be opening by December 2022.
Source: *El Gobierno baraja el mes de diciembre para la llegada del AVE a Murcia | La Verdad*
Below there's a photo of one of the new underground platforms of Murcia-El Carmen station, which will enter service in the first phase (the rest of the underground platforms would enter service once Murcia-Lorca-Almeria opened).












*(Madrid-)Toledo-Plasencia-Badajoz(-Lisbon) HSL*

Looks like the ministry now plans on electrifying the classic line between Humanes and Plasencia...
Source: *www.europapress.es*


----------



## 437.001

*News

Pajares base tunnels (Madrid-Leon-Asturias HSL)*

On September 19, 2022, the section between La Robla and Pola de Lena (50km) of the new stretch of the HSL will be turned on, at the voltage of 25kV. That includes the Pajares base tunnels.
That said, not all of the electrification works are finished...

Source: *Adif AV avanza en la Variante de Pajares con la electrificación entre La Robla y Pola de Lena - Adif - AV - Adif (adifaltavelocidad.es)*









Source: *Adif en Twitter: "🔴Avances en la Variante de #Pajares: ⚡ #Electrificación 🗓🕛El 19 de septiembre a las 23:59 horas se producirá la puesta en tensión de la catenaria entre La Robla y Pola de Lena (#LAV León-Asturias). 👇 https://t.co/0W9zrdHUqm" / Twitter*


----------



## 437.001

*News

Rolling stock*

An AVE class 106 train on tests in the Galicia HSL between Ourense and Santiago has reached a speed of 360km/h, which seems to be a speed record in Iberian gauge, and also the record top speed reached by a dual-gauge train.

Source: *El Avril alcanza los 360 por hora entre Ourense y Santiago, récord de velocidad en ancho ibérico (lavozdegalicia.es)*



Here's a video of the train (106.056) leaving Ourense bound for Santiago on some night tests.





Video by *Roxo Dos*


----------



## kokomo

300 km/h is the existing speed cap for commercial services throughout all Spain as the article implies? 
I thought there were some parts on the Madrid-Bcn line where 310 km/h were achieved on the Velaros 🤔


----------



## 437.001

kokomo said:


> 300 km/h is the existing speed cap for commercial services throughout all Spain as the article implies?


Yes.



kokomo said:


> I thought there were some parts on the Madrid-Bcn line where 310 km/h were achieved on the Velaros 🤔


For some time yes, but they returned to 300km/h.


----------



## Shenkey

There isn't a huge time difference between 320, 300 and 250km/h travel.
But there is a huge difference in gear degradation and power consumption.

China long ago slowed the trains down on lines that were build for faster speeds to reduce maintenance costs.
IMO that is a smart decision, overbuild a bit if cost difference is small, and operate under the limit.


----------



## 437.001

*News

Ouigo*

Ouigo to start running on Madrid Chamartin-Valencia Joaquin Sorolla from October 07, 2022.
Three trains per day, it seems.

Source: *Trenes a Valencia baratos para el mejor precio | OUIGO*


----------



## M-NL

437.001 said:


> *News
> 
> Rolling stock*
> 
> An AVE class 106 train on tests in the Galicia HSL between Ourense and Santiago has reached a speed of 360km/h, which seems to be a speed record in Iberian gauge, and also the record top speed reached by a dual-gauge train.


In the Wikipedia article about the Avril this image is shown:








This image suggests a train with a passenger cabin in the end cars and it has jacobs bogies between the end cars and the first trailer cars. All actually built Avrils to date still have power cars. Does anyone know why? Was there some technical issue Talgo couldn't solve with earlier concept?


----------



## Bipo

I made that mock-up myself about 15 years ago, inspired by a conference of Talgo taking about the new (then) Avril concept.


----------



## TCM_091

The new competitor reduce the average ticket 49% and increase the demand almost 400% in the HSR between Madrid and Barcelona. Those are the benefits of an open market.









La llegada de la competencia hunde los precios del AVE a Barcelona un 49%


La demanda se dispara en este trayecto un 393%, según los datos de la plataforma Trainline



www.abc.es


----------



## NCT

The Madrid - Barcelona route ought to be operating 2tph direct (bypassing Zaragoza) with 2tph via Zaragoza on top.


----------



## M-NL

Bipo said:


> I made that mock-up myself about 15 years ago, inspired by a conference of Talgo taking about the new (then) Avril concept.


Interesting. That image is around so long and widespread, that I was actually pretty surprised and disappointed when the prototypes turned out to have 'old fashioned' powercars.
Your answer suggests that Talgo originally wanted to take a different approach, but in the end chose to stick with the previous concept, because they couldn't solve some technical aspects.
As a train enthousiast I'm not only interested in the design of the final product, but also the design process and choices. I find it unfortunate that information about that process is often very limited and hard to come by. You only hear what the manufacturers wants you to hear.


----------



## PredyGr

I thought, there were 2 Avril concepts, the G3 and G4. The G3 being the push-pull type and the G4 the full articulated. Has Talgo abandoned the plans for the G4?


----------



## dyonisien

in the Wikipedia 'talgo Avril" Spanish page the configuration of the G4 version is described as follows.
Bo'Bo'Bo'1'1'1'1'1'1'1'1'1'Bo'Bo'Bo'
It means clearly two separate power cars + one motorised bogie at each end of the rake (reminiscent of TGV Sud-Est ?).


----------



## wbrm

Version G4 indeed has ‘powercars’ on either end with conventional bogies but with seats for passengers. These powercars have normal width and length, even if the Talgo cars in the middle can be extra wide (3,2m). The car adjacent to the powercars (the car with another conventional bogie) widens to the width of the Talgo cars. 
The Spanish speaking SkyscraperCity has lots of information on it.


----------



## Muiderpoort

wbrm said:


> (...)
> The Spanish speaking SkyscraperCity has lots of information on it.


Would you have the exact link of the topic you refer to? Thanks!


----------



## Bipo

Muiderpoort said:


> Would you have the exact link of the topic you refer to? Thanks!











Trenes | Talgo - AVRIL


Así es AVRIL, el nuevo tren de Talgo "Alta Velocidad Rueda Independiente Ligero - AVRIL". Así de completo y dislocado es el acrónimo de la familia de trenes (plataforma) que la fabricante española Talgo tiene sobre el tablero de diseño. El tren -o más bien su concepto- fue presentado en...




www.skyscrapercity.com


----------



## 437.001

*Rolling stock*

The class 106.5 Avril trains, which are dual-gauge, keep on testing in Galicia.
On the pictures below, a train at Coruña-San Cristóbal station.





































Source: *Eloy TP en Twitter: "#Coruña - Por primera vez en la estación de San Cristóbal uno de los 🚄 trenes Avril. Esta noche seguirá en pruebas hasta Vigo. Se espera que alcance los 360Km/h. #AltaVelocidad 🚆 #Tren 🚅 https://t.co/rSnU11yEj2" / Twitter*


----------



## 437.001

*News*

On October 07, 2022, the AVE Valencia-Seville and vv will restart service.
It had been suspended since the start of the pandemic.
The timetables are thus:

AVE 03982 - Valencia Joaquin Sorolla 07:48 > Cuenca Fernando Zobel 08:44 > Ciudad Real 10:17 > Puertollano 10:33 > Cordoba 11:18 > Sevilla Santa Justa 12:04.

AVE 03981 - Sevilla Santa Justa 18:28 > Cordoba 19:10 > Puertollano 19:56 > Ciudad Real 20:10 > Cuenca Fernando Zobel 21:37 > Valencia Joaquin Sorolla 22:31.

Source: *Horarios, precios de trenes, Ave, Avlo, Alvia, Regionales | Renfe*


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## Suburbanist

It would help to have at least another train pair in the opposite time slots (morning to Valencia, evening to Sevilla).


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## alserrod

Suburbanist said:


> It would help to have at least another train pair in the opposite time slots (morning to Valencia, evening to Sevilla).



In 2014 but just in season, there was an opposite train Sevilla - Alicante.

It was possible to link to Valencia in Cuenca with another train

Regarding Valencia - Sevilla, it should be possible to link to Malaga. I have a friend who did it in the past. Just five minutes waiting in Cordoba (for a Madrid-Malaga)


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## Coccodrillo

Any idea about when the new Pajares line should open?


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## JumpUp

Coccodrillo said:


> Any idea about when the new Pajares line should open?


Any idea if the old mountain (Pass)-Pajares line will stay open? I am afraid that it will be closed - but it's one of the most beautiful railways in Spain!


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## PippO.SkaiO

Google it!
Variante de Paredes opening: May 2023
The old Rampa de Parejes will not close


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## Coccodrillo

You can't "google it", as Spanish politicians and planners change idea every 5 minutes, so I don't trust opening dates and decisions found on the internet! But thanks anyway for the links, I will read them.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Any idea about when the new Pajares line should open?


Looks like it will be early 2023, but there's not an exact date yet.
But as you said, it will open when it will open.



JumpUp said:


> Any idea if the old mountain (Pass)-Pajares line will stay open?


It doesn't seem so.



JumpUp said:


> I am afraid that it will be closed -


That seems to be the plan.



JumpUp said:


> but it's one of the most beautiful railways in Spain!


And one of the most complicated to operate, too...

If we must judge by the two last recent closures (Tarancon-Cuenca-Utiel and the very busy Port Aventura-Salou-Vandellos), I don't see much reason to be optimistic, to be honest.


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## TCM_091

They will open in Spring 2023, because there are regional and local elections in May 2023


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## clickgr

437.001 said:


> If we must judge by the two last recent closures (Tarancon-Cuenca-Utiel and the very busy Port Aventura-Salou-Vandellos), I don't see much reason to be optimistic, to be honest.


By the way since you mentioned, once I got the train from Cambrils to Port Aventura and back in order to visit the theme park. Now that the line is closed but there is the new line passing through Cambrils, is it still possible for someone to move between Cambrils and Port Aventura by train?


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## arctic_carlos

clickgr said:


> By the way since you mentioned, once I got the train from Cambrils to Port Aventura and back in order to visit the theme park. Now that the line is closed but there is the new line passing through Cambrils, is it still possible for someone to move between Cambrils and Port Aventura by train?


Yes, you can take a regional train from Cambrils new station to Tarragona and then anorher regional train from Tarragona to Port Aventura. But I guess train schedules are not well coordinated to allow such changes in a reasonable time…


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> By the way since you mentioned, once I got the train from Cambrils to Port Aventura and back in order to visit the theme park. Now that the line is closed but there is the new line passing through Cambrils, is it still possible for someone to move between Cambrils and Port Aventura by train?



It is not longer possible since January 2020.
Tracks are halted between south L'Hospitalet to Port Aventura









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





There are some trains Port Aventura - Tarragona where you can link with another train and sometimes a direct Port Aventura - Barcelona.

The Cambrils station you used is not longer available

This is new Cambrils station








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





All regional trains call there plus a Seville-Barcelona (this train continues to Barcelona via HSL)


May you wanna go by train, it must be via Tarragona. I would guess a direct bus will be more useful


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## 437.001

TCM_091 said:


> They will open in Spring 2023, because there are regional and local elections in May 2023


That's not necessarily linked, as Adif have just opened three sections of HSL in three different regions, and there were no elections at all.


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## 437.001

clickgr said:


> By the way since you mentioned, once I got the train from Cambrils to Port Aventura and back in order to visit the theme park. Now that the line is closed but there is the new line passing through Cambrils, is it still possible for someone to move between Cambrils and Port Aventura by train?


For now, the better option is to take a bus.
You can also take a regional train at Cambrils and then change at Tarragona for another train to Port Aventura, but that's much less frequent and takes much longer than the bus.



arctic_carlos said:


> Yes, you can take a regional train from Cambrils new station to Tarragona and then anorher regional train from Tarragona to Port Aventura. But I guess train schedules are not well coordinated to allow such changes in a reasonable time…


There's this plan to build a tramway between Cambrils and Vilaseca or Reus, but for now it doesn't advance a lot, and it doesn't improve the performance and speed of the train (although it will have more stops in between than the train used to, their functions will be different).


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## Coccodrillo

Anyone knows why the single AVE Madrid-Huesca stops in Tardienta (948 inhabitants)? I heard that this was done because it is at the beginning of the double gauge section and so the trains would slow down a lot anyway, but I don't know if this is true or if it is still true.


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## Bipo

Coccodrillo said:


> Anyone knows why the single AVE Madrid-Huesca stops in Tardienta (948 inhabitants)? I heard that this was done because it is at the beginning of the double gauge section and so the trains would slow down a lot anyway, but I don't know if this is true or if it is still true.


Tardienta is kind of a train hub that allows exchange to other regional trains for different lines and destinations. Since the AVE brings quicker trips to Madrid, it makes perfect sense for its zone of influence.


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## Khaul

Bipo said:


> Tardienta is kind of a train hub that allows exchange to other regional trains for different lines and destinations. Since the AVE brings quicker trips to Madrid, it makes perfect sense for its zone of influence.


‘Kind of a railway hub’ is a huge overstatement. Transferring between trains is Spain is heavily penalised, it usually requires buying separate tickets.


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## Coccodrillo

There would be sense to plan connections between Lleida-Tardienta-Zaragoza regional trains and AVE trains to Madrid, but these could better be done in Zaragoza, and as Khaul said, RENFE doesn't want them anyway.

A stop in Tardienta for connections would only make sense for trips like Huesca-Tardienta-Lleida changing trains in Tardienta, but again, I highly doubt that Renfe has planned any of them.


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## alserrod

I do not agree. 
At Tardienta, regional trains are
Zaragoza-Tardienta-Huesca-...Canfranc
and Zaragoza-Tardienta-Monzon-Lerida

This is, in the best place, you can link with three more trains which... all of them come from Zaragoza.

Line was open in December 2003. Before then there was a daily Madrid-Jaca (calling at Guadalajara, Sigüenza, Arcos, Ariza, Calatayud, Zaragoza, Tardienta, Huesca, Ayerbe, Sabiñánigo and Jaca) and two daily Zaragoza-Canfranc

The two daily Zaragoza-Canfranc remain but Madrid-Jaca was over. It was replaced by a Madrid-Huesca plus a Zaragoza-Jaca (that it doesn't exist anymore). I bet Tardienta call was set because previous service.

Nevertheless, AFAIK, trains run at 30 km/h only in that point. This is, it doesn't take too much time to make a stop.
In addition, some years ago, it was the only point where trains could cross themselves as far as it is a HSL with single track. 
Today, crosses are done in another point but may an AVE wanna go to Huesca, if a regional train is in delay he would have to wait at Tardienta.

Station hasn't cafeteria nor other services. Just regional tickets selling and a waiting area. It is not possible to buy AVE tickets there. Today, with internet and app it is not hard but in 2003 you had to... buy online (not often) or having a return ticket (or buying in advance in another station)

People doesn't care about that station despite there aren't many passengers. I bet if it is removed, train would stop for six minutes in Zaragoza instead of five and remaining old schedules


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## clickgr

To me the Tardienta station doesn't make any sense at all, and the section between Tardienta and Huesca is far out of the scope of the High speed service. It would make much more sense to build a real high speed line on this section so that the AVE shortcuts on the way from Zaragoza to Huesca avoiding Tardienta and save much time, rather than investing further on the role of Tardienta station. 

The slow down for AVE speeds in this section is a pig pain, considering that the train is coming from Madrid running at speeds of 300km/h for most of the time, and suddenly for 20 min it has to move with 30-50km/h just before it reaches its final destination. Having a fast AVE or MD service between Zaragoza and Huesca, Huesca can then play the role of the hub instead of Tardienta for the Zaragoza-Monzon-Lerida route. With good connections between high speed trains on the route Zaragoza-Huesca and regional trains on the route Huesca-Lerida, I do not thing the overall regional route Zaragoza-Lerida would be much slower in the end. But even if it is a bit slower, there is always the alternative and much faster option of the direct AVE Zaragoza-Lerida service. 

Plus like this not only there would be significant benefit in time savings for the high speed Zaragoza-Huesca trains but also for the regional Zaragoza-Jaca/Canfranc services.


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## alserrod

I strongly agree

Train Huesca-Madrid has only passengers direction Madrid, not Zaragoza. 
AVE calls at Tardienta at 8:27. Before that hour, three trains have called there (two coming from Huesca, one from Lerida-Monzon)

It would have been better to bypass Tardienta and follow a route near motorway A-23.

Works are there... nowadays, just be sure there's no saving money or time having or not having that call. Even without passengers in some trains.

Just one hint
Zaragoza-Tardienta is speeded to 200 km/h
Tardienta-Huesca is speeded to 160


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Just one hint
> Zaragoza-Tardienta is speeded to 200 km/h
> Tardienta-Huesca is speeded to 160


 Yes the difference is Zaragoza-Tardienta is speeded to 200 km/h and the trains are traveling at 200 km/h. Tardienta-Huesca is speeded to 160 km/h but the trains are traveling at 50 km/h for the most part.


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## Khaul

clickgr said:


> Yes the difference is Zaragoza-Tardienta is speeded to 200 km/h and the trains are traveling at 200 km/h. Tardienta-Huesca is speeded to 160 km/h but the trains are traveling at 50 km/h for the most part.


There should be 2tph from Zaragoza to Huesca, all taking 40min instead of 6 slow regional trains and one AVE. That is perfectly doable with the current infrastructure. Change in Zaragoza to go anywhere else.


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## clickgr

Khaul said:


> There should be 2tph from Zaragoza to Huesca, all taking 40min instead of 6 slow regional trains and one AVE. That is perfectly doable with the current infrastructure. Change in Zaragoza to go anywhere else.


The problem with the current infrastructure is that even the fastest trains do not travel much faster than the car. The distance Zaragoza-Huesca is also covered in around 40 min. by a car traveling with max 120 km/h. 

On the other hand, this line does not serve only the city of Huesca, it serves the entire Alto Aragon region. If you need 40 min. at best to go from Huesca to Zaragoza, imagine if you need to travel from Monzon, Barbastro, Sabinanigo, Ayerbe, Jaca etc. Yes I know it is not a high dense populated area and the all those cities are relatively small, but it is a big region with difficult terrain and spread population over long distances. 

In the end due to the current infrastructure, train is not competitive at all. If for example you live in Monzon and want to travel to Madrid and have a car, ti makes more sense to drive all the way up to Zaragoza, park your car at the train station and take the AVE directly to Madrid, rather than dealing with train connections. Even for Huesca in many occasions makes more sense to take your car up to Zaragoza, the roads are pretty good after all and with no traffic. 

If there were at least a real high speed rail connection in the Zaragoza-Huesca route to take around 15min for this distance, this would automatically make the regional trains more competitive too, with Huesca acting as a hub.


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## Khaul

clickgr said:


> The problem with the current infrastructure is that even the fastest trains do not travel much faster than the car. The distance Zaragoza-Huesca is also covered in around 40 min. by a car traveling with max 120 km/h.
> 
> On the other hand, this line does not serve only the city of Huesca, it serves the entire Alto Aragon region. If you need 40 min. at best to go from Huesca to Zaragoza, imagine if you need to travel from Monzon, Barbastro, Sabinanigo, Ayerbe, Jaca etc. Yes I know it is not a high dense populated area and the all those cities are relatively small, but it is a big region with difficult terrain and spread population over long distances.
> 
> In the end due to the current infrastructure, train is not competitive at all. If for example you live in Monzon and want to travel to Madrid and have a car, ti makes more sense to drive all the way up to Zaragoza, park your car at the train station and take the AVE directly to Madrid, rather than dealing with train connections. Even for Huesca in many occasions makes more sense to take your car up to Zaragoza, the roads are pretty good after all and with no traffic.
> 
> If there were at least a real high speed rail connection in the Zaragoza-Huesca route to take around 15min for this distance, this would automatically make the regional trains more competitive too, with Huesca acting as a hub.


No. That’s a Celtiberian mindset. Quite simply, in most European countries there would be 2tph between a pair of cities of that population located 75km from each other. The travel time would be similar or worse than using private vehicle. The trains still carry many people because they run frequently, are confortable and you don’t need to worry about parking at destination.


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## Sunfuns

Indeed, for a regional traffic there is no need to be faster than a car. The same or slightly worse is more than good enough. 

Mind you that doesn't apply to major long distance routes like Madrid-Barcelona where one wishes to compete with flying.


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## clickgr

Sunfuns said:


> Indeed, for a regional traffic there is no need to be faster than a car. The same or slightly worse is more than good enough.
> 
> Mind you that doesn't apply to major long distance routes like Madrid-Barcelona where one wishes to compete with flying.


The thing here is that the regional trains are not the same or slightly worse than the car, they are much worse! The fast trains between Huesca and Zaragoza are the same as the cars. For any other destination in the region car or buses are much more convenient than regional trains to move to Zaragoza and beyond.


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## Khaul

The problem with the trains is that there are extremely infrequent. If they were frequent and as fast as the Zaragoza-Huesca unique AVE run, which would be easy to achieve, the service would be excellent.


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## Sunfuns

clickgr said:


> The fast trains between Huesca and Zaragoza are the same as the cars. .


Sure, but why not run these fast trains at least 16 times per day? I don't get why is that at least not being done. Never mind the destinations outside Huesca for the moment.


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## clickgr

Sunfuns said:


> Sure, but why not run these fast trains at least 16 times per day? I don't get why is that at least not being done. Never mind the destinations outside Huesca for the moment.


Because Huesca and the surrounding towns do not have such a big population to justify the need of such a frequent service. The fast trains will be moving almost empty.

As for the other destinations Jaca-Zaragoza for example, by regional train it takes 3h 10m. By Bus making stops in all the villages in between it takes 2h 10min. By car for the same distance it takes 1h 30min. and when the road works will be finished in the section between Huesca and Jaca in the following years, it will be dropped further.

You can see there is no competition between car and train in this case, not even between Bus with frequent stops and train. Not even with fast train connection from Huesca/Tardienta (again more than 2h and 30min considering 10 min connection time).

If there were a high speed Huesca-Zaragoza service, then a possible time for the Zarazoza-Jaca route with connection to regional trains could be around 2 h and then yes this is a competitive time for the trains and a good reason not to take your car.

In low density populated areas it makes more sense to have few high speed services a day (3-4 max.) with good connections to regional trains rather than frequent "fast" services.


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## Sunfuns

I live in Basel, population with all the suburbs max 500k. So a bit smaller than Zaragoza city. There are local trains to towns the size of Huesca at least once an hour every hour from 5 am till midnight, in some directions twice and hour. Most of those trains are 50% full or better. How does Huesca-Zaragoza connection differs? Those 3 h connections you mentioned indeed would not work, but we are not looking at those right now. Only at Huesca-Zaragoza traffic + towns directly on the line between.


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## clickgr

Switzerland is very different from Spain in the way it is populated. Yes both have regions with relatively small population, but in many Spanish autonomous communities like Aragon the same population is spread over much bigger surface. This is the reason why high speed services do not make much sense in Switzerland and why they do make a lot of sense in Spain where you need to cover big distances just to go from one small town to the other.

Another aspect is that due to different terrain it is also much easier and economical to build high speed lines on the flat Spanish terrain than on the mountainous swiss terrain.



Sunfuns said:


> Those 3 h connections you mentioned indeed would not work, but we are not looking at those right now. Only at Huesca-Zaragoza traffic + towns directly on the line between.


 On the line between Zaragoza and Huesca there is almost nothing. Other cities/towns in the region that have some significance in population for rail services are located even more far away beyond Huesca.


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## Coccodrillo

The first step would to better use what already exist by providing more for the same cost. For instance, connections between Huesca and Lleida in Zaragoza/Tardienta and to Barcelona in Lleida, including with other operators like Trenitalia and SNCF (it's nice to see that European government thought of "privatizations" and ended up with "state owned companies running trains in competition with other state owned companies", by the way). Ticketing should also be easier and integrated, so that a return ticket Zatagoza-Huesca can be used on a regional train, an MD, an AVE or whatever train category it is.

Bud sadly I know the Spanish answer would be "let's built another 3 billion railway, half broad gauge, half standard gauge, and then run no more than 4 trains a day on it, each with a ridicolous and different name, a different ticket type that cannot be exchanged, and then let's travel by car and bus because the service sucks and few use it".


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## TCM_091

clickgr said:


> Switzerland is very different from Spain in the way it is populated. Yes both have regions with relatively small population, but in many Spanish autonomous communities like Aragon the same population is spread over much bigger surface. This is the reason why high speed services do not make much sense in Switzerland and why they do make a lot of sense in Spain where you need to cover big distances just to go from one small town to the other.
> 
> Another aspect is that due to different terrain it is also much easier and economical to build high speed lines on the flat Spanish terrain than on the mountainous swiss terrain.


You're right, spanish population is more concentrated the in Switzerland. But Spain is actually the second most mountaniuos country in Europe after Switzerland.

But actually they are right, the best way to improve ridership is to increase the frequency.


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## clickgr

TCM_091 said:


> You're right, spanish population is more concentrated the in Switzerland. But Spain is actually the second most mountaniuos country in Europe after Switzerland.
> 
> But actually they are rigt, the best way to improve ridership is to increase the frequency.


But here we are talking about the railway infrastructure between Zaragoza and Huesca, a huge flat area which is pretty much empty for most of the part. Nobody is talking about high speed lines in the Pyrenees. Yes Spain has many mountains but has also many huge unihabited areas, and many very remote towns which is not the case for Switzerland, Austria and other mountainous countries.


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## alserrod

Zaragoza is a 680K people or so, fifth city in Spain

Huesca has just 53K. 

Nevertheless, in peak hours you have a bus every 30 minutes and barely you have a train. It is not unique in Zaragoza-Huesca. There are, sadly, other cities in this situation.

There was an Avant train in 2008 three times per day. It took 40 minutes best time.
People preferred the Regional.

Why???. 
Avant, 40 minutes Huesca to Zaragoza-Delicias (calling in Tardienta, later nonstop)
Regional, 55 minutes Huesca to Zaragoza-Delicias calling in Miraflores, Goya and Portillo.

This is 48 minutes or so Huesca - Zaragoza city centre with regional or 40 minutes Huesca to Zaragoza Delicias
(and cheaper)

People preferred to stop at Goya and in that station only a regional sill stop.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> A stop in Tardienta for connections would only make sense for trips like Huesca-Tardienta-Lleida changing trains in Tardienta, but again, I highly doubt that Renfe has planned any of them.


Anyway, even if what you're saying is not wrong, it actually doesn't hurt anyone that high speed trains call at Tardienta at the moment.

That is not one of the main high-speed services anyway, so it's better that it gets more potential passengers on board rather than out of the train, and the difference in travel time Huesca-Madrid point-to-point is negligible.



Sunfuns said:


> Sure, but why not run these fast trains at least 16 times per day? I don't get why is that at least not being done. Never mind the destinations outside Huesca for the moment.


Because Renfe does not have the right rolling stock (the one adapted for low-demand lines, high-speed or not, the ideal rolling stock for this line, if it were in France, would be an X73500 "Suppo"), or enough of it, or enough staff to run such a timetable, nor is the line effective enough against the bus service, nor are all of the intermediate stations in use , as some of the ones which could generate some passengers are closed and demolished (San Mateo de Gállego, Ontinar del Salz, Vicién), others are not closed but passenger trains do not call there anymore (San Juan de Mozarrifar, Almudévar), or do not serve very populated areas anyway (Ontinar del Salz, Almudévar, Tardienta, Vicién), or are far away from the town centre (San Mateo de Gállego, Zuera, Ontinar del Salz) and there is one extra station which could be crammed in in the west of Zaragoza city (Vadorrey), but there's no official plan for it to get built. There is only one intermediate station which is populated and central enough to generate an acceptable number of passengers (Villanueva de Gállego), which won't happen if the service isn't frequent anyway, and... this is the type of situation where the dog chases its tail once and again (no trains because no passengers, no passengers because no trains, no population because no trains, no trains because no population, etc, etc, etc...).

Besides, the existence of the 1+1 track between Miraflores and Tardienta sort of hampers the operation of certain intermediate stations, particularly when there's a crossing with a freight train.
If the whole classic network had a gauge change from Iberian to Standard, things on this axis would become much easier to manage, but then again, the likeliness that certain well-to-do people in Huesca (and more down-to-earth people, too, via media manipulation) would complain that their "AVE line" had been "downgraded to a classic line" would then skyrocket, even if the classic line allowed the very same 200km/h the current "HSL" does now, and even if between Zaragoza and Tardienta the line actually became a real double-track line instead of the current "arrangement" of 1 single "HSL" track + 1 classic track.



Coccodrillo said:


> There would be sense to plan connections between Lleida-Tardienta-Zaragoza regional trains and AVE trains to Madrid, but these could better be done in Zaragoza, and as Khaul said, RENFE doesn't want them anyway.


It's not that Renfe wants them or not, that is not for Renfe's to decide, Renfe only does what it's told.
It's that for Mid-Distance services (Media Distancia, what in other places gets called in English "regional rail"), Renfe only has the duty to exploit the OSP services ("Obligación de Servicio Público" - "Compulsory Public Service" in English translation).
The remainder of services must be payed for by the regional government (in this case, the Aragon government), and they're not prone to the idea of doing that, or so it seems.


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## Khaul

clickgr said:


> Because Huesca and the surrounding towns do not have such a big population to justify the need of such a frequent service. The fast trains will be moving almost empty.
> 
> As for the other destinations Jaca-Zaragoza for example, by regional train it takes 3h 10m. By Bus making stops in all the villages in between it takes 2h 10min. By car for the same distance it takes 1h 30min. and when the road works will be finished in the section between Huesca and Jaca in the following years, it will be dropped further.
> 
> You can see there is no competition between car and train in this case, not even between Bus with frequent stops and train. Not even with fast train connection from Huesca/Tardienta (again more than 2h and 30min considering 10 min connection time).
> 
> If there were a high speed Huesca-Zaragoza service, then a possible time for the Zarazoza-Jaca route with connection to regional trains could be around 2 h and then yes this is a competitive time for the trains and a good reason not to take your car.
> 
> In low density populated areas it makes more sense to have few high speed services a day (3-4 max.) with good connections to regional trains rather than frequent "fast" services.


Ok, then just close all the lines that are not HSR. Happy driving!


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## clickgr

Khaul said:


> Ok, then just close all the lines that are not HSR. Happy driving!


I don’t think you got my point.


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## 437.001

clickgr said:


> I don’t think you got my point.


Me?
I don't think I replied to you...


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## clickgr

437.001 said:


> Me?
> I don't think I replied to you...


Of course not. I quoted Khaul's message in my reply.


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## alserrod

To sum up regarding Zaragoza-Huesca, we should aim to have these two services

Zaragoza-Huesca point-to-point as fast as possible
Commuter Zaragoza North till Villanueva

Local forumers have discussed about this point. We think it has non-sense to have a train to Huesca with a lot of calls, specially when most, most of passengers are commuters or just Zaragoza-Huesca.
A perfect train system would have a call in the last commuting station to let people link


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## clickgr

What I am saying here is that there is a fact, either we like it or not. 

The fact is that the entire Alto Aragon region is not very efficient in rail passenger transport for long distances, especially compared to road transportation. And the main reason for that is not just because there are limited train schedules. It is for various reasons: because of the old infrastructure, because of the way the region is inhabited and because of the bad planning for the new "high-speed" Zaragoza-Huesca line with a single track near Huesca and with the role of Tardienta station in the whole network.

Yes if you increase a little bit the schedule frequency you will somehow improve the situation, but having 16 trains a day on the route will bring you nothing but increasing operational costs without increasing ridership reasonably.

And this problem is not only for the remote towns at the base of the Pyrenees and elsewhere. It is also for Huesca, the biggest city in the region and the closest one to Zaragoza, where even there fast trains are not competitive enough.

To solve this situation there are 2 options:

1. Either you redesign the entire network from scratch, from Zaragoza till Canfranc, from Lerida till Navarra, with modern shorter lines, faster trains etc. to serve the entire region.

2. Or you are based on the existing old infrastructure for the most part and improve the times in the Zaragoza-Huesca axis to real high-speed standards, so that other further towns can also benefit via connections in Huesca.

In first case you need to spend huge amount of money, in the second case there is already a new line, there are already high-speed trains in the Spanish network, you only need to modify this line. 

Spain can take many examples in many cases from Switzerland, which I believe it has an excellent rail network, maybe the best in the world. However, a successful approach to a problem that is working in Switzerland is not always going to work for Spain too. They are 2 different countries, with different needs, different landscape, different urbanization principles, different climate, different culture etc. Each case needs to be treated individually.


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## Coccodrillo

Huesca station to Zaragoza Delicias station by car is 75 km and 50 minutes. By regional train is around one hour, a little bit less to Zaragoza Portillo.

The departures for tomorrow are: 6.40, 7.38, 8.15 (AVE), 8.50, 16.02, 18.38, 20.37

In the opposite direction: 6.24, 8.43, 14.32, 15.42, 19.02, 20.33 (AVE), 21.39

The rule is that the less the distance, the more frequency is important compared to speed (within reasonable limits). On a distance of around 75 km, a train every hour doing the trip in one hour is preferable than 4 trains a day doing the trip in 45 minutes. The service offered today on Zaragoza-Huesca is good compared to many other Spanish lines, but still isn't enough to win over car, and that's because of frequency and not because of speed. A rule of thumb to quantify the minimum offer a line desserve is "headway = duration of the trip", although this must be evaluated case by case. Another rule of thumb of public transport is "perceived travel duration = duration of the actual trip + half of the headway".

I don't see what kind of rail connections could be given in Huesca. Maybe you mean Zaragoza-Huesca-Lleida trains, that can link both Zaragoza and Huesca to Lleida. This may be interesting of you speed up a lot Zaragoza-Huesca, but how much would it cost? Is it worth the price?

(if there are buses between Huesca and Zaragoza in addition to the train, they should be considered in evaluating the public transport offer, though)

(by the way, when I have been there in 2009 there were three trains a day to Jaca of which two continued to Canfranc, and now there are just the two to Canfranc, that's sad)


----------



## clickgr

Let's see what cities we are talking about:

Huesca 55.000 inhabitants
Monzon 20.000 inhabitants
Barbastro 20.000 inhabitants
Jaca 15.000 inhabitants
Binefar 10.000 inhabitants
Sabinanigo 10.000 inhabitants

plus some small towns around those cities.

I doubt the traffic that those cities can generate to anywhere is high enough to demand trains every hour. In addition, the most interesting destination for all those people is Zaragoza where there is a big market, shopping malls, hospitals, airport etc. plus a big AVE hub at Delicias to travel to Madrid, Barcelona and other big cities across Spain.

Apart from Binefar and Monzon, (Barbastro has no train station directly in the city), Lerida is not very interesting destination to travel directly by train for the rest of the cities in the region, since Zaragoza offers more options and Lerida is much easier to reach by car rather by train from anywhere. Zaragoza has direct AVE train connection to Lerida so again no need to use this long route via Huesca-Monzon.

Another thing we need to consider is that the majority of those people are working either in the agriculture sector or in the services sector or in tourism, meaning very few of them need to travel to another city every morning to work in the office or in industry and come back on the same day. Most people are working in the same city they live. Nevertheless, Zaragoza is the city that generates the most traffic to and from anyway.

The most common transportation in this region where train can be helpful is to or from Zaragoza early in the morning to do some shopping or other works and return back in the afternoon/early evening on the same day. So for this purpose, 7 scheduled trains a day between Huesca and Zaragoza I think are enough, considering that people for the rest of the cites need to go via Huesca anyway. What is more important here is to be able go to your destination and come back fast and to easily reach the city center, in order to have enough time for your daily works, rather than being able to move between cities any time of the day with frequent train schedules.

As for the travellers, again the most important is to have good connections with the AVE trains from Madrid and Barcelona at Zaragoza Delicias that they can bring them fast to their destination city.


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## Sunfuns

If your theory is correct why are there 20+ buses per day between Zaragoza and Huesca? Logically there would be no patronage for those either and a couple in the morning and evening would suffice.


----------



## Stuu

Equally if there is so little demand for travel, why is there a motorway between the two, and one under construction towards Lleida?

There is a reasonable population between Lleida and Zaragoza, somewhere like that in other parts of Europe would definitely have an hourly train service. The same with Huesca to Zaragoza


----------



## clickgr

Sunfuns said:


> If your theory is correct why are there 20+ buses per day between Zaragoza and Huesca? Logically there would be no patronage for those either and a couple in the morning and evening would suffice.


Because a bus can commute a fraction of the number of people a train can commute. 



Stuu said:


> Equally if there is so little demand for travel, why is there a motorway between the two, and one under construction towards Lleida?
> 
> There is a reasonable population between Lleida and Zaragoza, somewhere like that in other parts of Europe would definitely have an hourly train service. The same with Huesca to Zaragoza


There is a motorway because it is a a big distance and because motorways are not only used by privet cars, they also serve for freight purposes, as there are motorways all over Spain. However the Huesca-Lerida and the Huesca-Zaragoza motorways never really have high traffic.

Between Lerida and Zaragoza there is another direct motorway and another direct high-speed rail. Transportation doesn't need to go over Huesca.


----------



## alserrod

Wow. I will try to answer all of you (my homecity is Zaragoza)




Sunfuns said:


> If your theory is correct why are there 20+ buses per day between Zaragoza and Huesca? Logically there would be no patronage for those either and a couple in the morning and evening would suffice.


It is true.

Buses depart from Zaragoza-Delicias too (it's the same building for trains and buses) and arrive to Huesca station (same one too). 
Buses call quite near to Zaragoza-Portillo and another stop in Zaragoza-north, cool to transfer to another local bus
Trains call in Goya (city center and tramway) and Miraflores (far away from anywhere)

I always remember 20ish buses per day. Most of them non-stop. Some of them one or two calls. A bit of them in every village.

But... I remember also a commuting bus Huesca-Zaragoza. It required to pay all the month but it was terribly cheap (compared with normal bus or train), it had several stops in Huesca and Zaragoza (several aditional) and they could use shared with regular bus.

Trains... it is the point in a lot of decades we have the greatest numer of trains





Stuu said:


> Equally if there is so little demand for travel, why is there a motorway between the two, and one under construction towards Lleida?
> 
> There is a reasonable population between Lleida and Zaragoza, somewhere like that in other parts of Europe would definitely have an hourly train service. The same with Huesca to Zaragoza



There's absolutely nothing between Lleida and Zaragoza except Fraga.

Between Fraga and Bujaraloz in AP-2, I think we have the top European distance between two exits. 45 km without any motorway exit!!!!
Bujaraloz has barely 1000 people.

Between Zaragoza and Huesca, only Zuera (7,5K) and all of their movements are towards Zaragoza



clickgr said:


> Because a bus can commute a fraction of the number of people a train can commute.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a motorway because it is a a big distance and because motorways are not only used by privet cars, they also serve for freight purposes, as there are motorways all over Spain. However the Huesca-Lerida and the Huesca-Zaragoza motorways never really have high traffic.
> 
> Between Lerida and Zaragoza there is another direct motorway and another direct high-speed rail. Transportation doesn't need to go over Huesca.


Lleida-Huesca-Pamplona is the shortest way between Catalonia and Basque Country (Barcelona-Bilbao has same distance, other destinations it is shortest).

BTW, not high speed train but Huesca-Canfranc has not any traffic since August 1st due to works between Plasencia del Monte and Ayerbe.

It is supposed to re-open within a month and with a nice new line Zaragoza-Ayerbe (and old one Ayerbe-Canfranc tough)


----------



## Stuu

alserrod said:


> There's absolutely nothing between Lleida and Zaragoza except Fraga.


On the direct route that's true, the 1668mm railway goes through a number of towns though, with reasonable populations, as ClickGR listed above


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## alserrod

It's true.

Line was considered as a "second line" towards Barcelona (main line was through Caspe) and it tried to link the most of intermediate cities as well as avoiding some hills.

BTW, in a SSC about "longest straight", some forumers posted several roads in middle-south Spain.
I said... straight but in railway!!!! HSL near Bujaraloz has more than 40 km straight. Therefore, longest one in Spain!!! (Thread didn't say anything about only roads, despite it is not often to see it in a railway)


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Lleida-Huesca-Pamplona is the shortest way between Catalonia and Basque Country (Barcelona-Bilbao has same distance, other destinations it is shortest).


My answer was going to this statement:


Stuu said:


> There is a reasonable population between Lleida and Zaragoza, somewhere like that in other parts of Europe would definitely have an hourly train service. The same with Huesca to Zaragoza


And I said there is indeed an hourly service between Lerida and Zaragoza but via a different line and different high-speed trains. Also there is a different motorway to cover the traffic between those 2 cities.

But Lerida-Huesca is another story as it is the connection of Catalonia in general with Navarra and the Basque country.


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## alserrod

I agree.

There's no population (except Fraga, still in the region of Aragon but near Fraga). Absolutely no population, as said 45 km between exits 3 and 4 in the motorway.

Nothing special Huesca-Lleida. Bus service has 3-4 services only. Some additional Huesca-Barbastro-Monzon.

It is a pity but we cannot make special transport network without population. It is common in inner Spain. Around Zaragoza we have bus and train lines Zaragoza-somewhere but somewhere-somewhere... a) it is strongly uncommon, b) poor service due to few population.
There are a villages without a weekly bus


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## 437.001

clickgr said:


> But Lerida-Huesca is another story as it is the connection of Catalonia in general with Navarra and the Basque country.


By road, but not by rail.

And not all of it.

*By road:*

Lerida-Huesca is good if you travel to Pamplona (Navarre) or San Sebastian/Irun/Hendaye (Basque Country and France).

But if you travel to Tudela (Navarre), Logroño (La Rioja), Miranda de Ebro (Castile & Leon), Vitoria or Bilbao (Basque Country), then the way to go from Lerida is via Zaragoza.

*By rail:*

Everything goes via Zaragoza and Tudela, then splitting at Castejón de Ebro (just north of Tudela), be it towards Logroño, Miranda de Ebro, and Bilbao, be it towards Pamplona, and then Vitoria or San Sebastian/Irun/Hendaye.

By rail, Huesca is in a bit of a dead end, unless they reopened the French side of the Canfranc line.
In fact, even the trains to Canfranc used to skip Huesca in the past, they ran straight from Zuera to Ayerbe via a line that was closed in the 1970's (Zuera to Turuñana), and still nowadays, all the passenger trains running anywhere beyond Huesca on the Canfranc line have to reverse (not the freight trains though, as there's a chord to skip Huesca station).

Same for Barbastro, it used to be on a branch line (from Selgua station), but that was closed in 1985 (and by then it was freight-only, passenger service ceased in the 1970's).
As for Selgua station, it is in a very small town, and is mainly a freight yard at the moment, I don't remember whether regional trains still call there or not.
In any case, the go-to stations for Barbastro people are Huesca (but that has an infrequent service to Zaragoza and Madrid, although it can be useful to some extent if someone travels on the Canfranc line, which has a very infrequent service anyway, or for Teruel and Valencia if it still exists and it is of convenience to the passenger), Monzón (the closest one, but it has only an infrequent regional rail service to Lleida, Zaragoza, Calatayud, Guadalajara, and Madrid), and particularly Lleida (the best option, with frequent services for both Madrid and Barcelona, also for longer trips to northern or southern Spain, but not for Zaragoza -car or bus are better).


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## clickgr

I didn't say anything different.

Lerida-Huesca rail is and old line with slow trains, infrequent schedules, that doesn't follow the ideal shortest route, doesn't connect Barbastro, etc. In general very inefficient.

Lerida-Huesca road is a modern motorway passes close to both Monzon and Barbastro, can be used not only to connect Lerida to Huesca, but also Lerida and the whole region of Catalonia to Navarra and the Basque country, and also to connect all those regions and cities to the central Pyrenees and the tourist destinations in the mountains and around, the ski resorts etc (Bensque, Cerler, Panticosa, Jaca, Formigal, Alquezar, Somontano...). This road is finished more than a decade ago, only a small section is now under construction at the entrance of Huesca. In general a very good road and very efficient, although never busy.

But both of them are not meant to satisfy the traffic between Lerida and Zaragoza.


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## Coccodrillo

What kind of train is this?









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.ch





It is on the standard gauge track, but it seems a special train just parked there for a long time, not an AVE in regular service (with just two AVE trains per day, it is extremely unlikely the Google Street View car run there exactly when an AVE was temporarily stopped there).

I have another question about the Zaragoza-Tardienda-Huesca line. How much of it is new? It doesn't seem an entirely new HSL, but it also doesn't seem old. Maybe it is mostly the old line, which has been doubled and built new on some short stretches?

A note about Huesca station. I know it has always been dead end, and in the past (before the construction of the bypass) trains to Canfranc reversed twice, in the station itself and just before the switch leading to the dead end station. But why they decided to build a bypass, instead of building a new station along the old through alignment, around here?









Huesca · Huesca, Spain


Huesca, Spain




www.google.ch







alserrod said:


> It is supposed to re-open within a month and with a nice new line Zaragoza-Ayerbe (and old one Ayerbe-Canfranc tough)


What do you mean, alserrod? I don't understand you. Puedes escribir tanbién en castellano, para mi no es un problema. Aunque es 10 años que no vengo en España, y no hablo español, lo entiendo siempre y deseo volver antes de que la línea de Pajares cierre.


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## clickgr

Coccodrillo said:


> A note about Huesca station. I know it has always been dead end, and in the past (before the construction of the bypass) trains to Canfranc reversed twice, in the station itself and just before the switch leading to the dead end station. But why they decided to build a bypass, instead of building a new station along the old through alignment, around here?


Good question, I was always wondering why. I guess the city at some point had already expanded near the old line towards Canfranc and when they realize the need for a new station with a through line, it was too late to build something new and big there.


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## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> What kind of train is this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch


I am not sure but... a 594 series, perhaps?
Diesel Zaragoza-Huesca with 126 seats

Wikipedia in Spanish


https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_594_de_Renfe






> I have another question about the Zaragoza-Tardienda-Huesca line. How much of it is new? It doesn't seem an entirely new HSL, but it also doesn't seem old. Maybe it is mostly the old line, which has been doubled and built new on some short stretches?


Service started in December 2003, just two months after Madrid-Zaragoza-Lleida service.
A single track Zaragoza-Tardienta and a shared track Tardienta-Huesca

It is a new line and it was strongly easy to build it. It hasn't any special bridge or other construction and absolutely paralel to old line.




> A note about Huesca station. I know it has always been dead end, and in the past (before the construction of the bypass) trains to Canfranc reversed twice, in the station itself and just before the switch leading to the dead end station. But why they decided to build a bypass, instead of building a new station along the old through alignment, around here?


Nowadays, trains are deviated to Canfranc in this Delta








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





I think Zaragoza-Canfranc tracks, not passing through Huesca are just for freight.

Until December 2007, tracks were in city centre.
This was main Level Crossing in Huesca (I remember, when a child, going there by bus. It was the only road from Zaragoza to north before Huesca bypass)









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





and this was the nearest corner of old track to the station. There wasn't enough space for a Delta. Therefore, they had to reverse twice. Going from Zaragoza to Canfranc, to Huesca and stop. Reverse, just 500 metres and reverse again









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com






Huesca station was considered always in city centre. It was best solution. There are few passengers despite it is in city centre. Be sure nobody would get a train to Zaragoza if they had to go to the bypass.






> What do you mean, alserrod? I don't understand you. Puedes escribir tanbién en castellano, para mi no es un problema. Aunque es 10 años que no vengo en España, y no hablo español, lo entiendo siempre y deseo volver antes de que la línea de Pajares cierre.


August 1st to 31st there wasn't AVE service because works in Zuera. There was a transfer in Zaragoza to Huesca
August 1st to November 20th or so, there ISn't regional service Huesca-Canfranc because works between Plasencia del Monte and Ayerbe

Try to surf schedules in renfe.com to somewhere between Huesca and Canfranc. They will warn you it is required to transfer to bus in Huesca!!!

By heart....
Zaragoza-Tardienta has had always a cool track because it is Madrid-Barcelona route
Tardienta-Canfranc was a nightmare. When I was teenager, I remember we got on the train at 7:15 and sleeping only until Tardienta. It was impossible to sleep later in those tracks

In June 2000, tracks Tardienta-Huesca were strongly upgraded
In December 2007, Huesca bypass was open (*). Just some km
In 2015 (not sure), Huesca bypass - Plasencia del Monte was strongly upgraded
Now... in November 2022 it is supposed to re-open Plasencia del Monte - Ayerbe after near 4 months shutdown 

(*) Huesca bypass... I remember watching it in.... TV news!!!. Evening news in regional TV are at 20:30 everyday. Last train through Zaragoza was departing at 20:40 or so. Therefore, regional TV had headlines, some images and first news was... directly to Huesca. They broadcasted live in news last train in Level Crossings in Huesca. Line was shutdowned for several days and service started again but using the new bypass.

It was in 2007 just before several Holidays we have in December.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> What kind of train is this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is on the standard gauge track, but it seems a special train just parked there for a long time, not an AVE in regular service (with just two AVE trains per day, it is extremely unlikely the Google Street View car run there exactly when an AVE was temporarily stopped there).


Most certainly a new CAF-built train doing some tests. CAF has a factory in Zaragoza.

By the way it looks, and given past sightings, could it be a train for Britain?
In the past there have been sightings for trains for the London Overground (or Northern Rail, can't remember), but this one looks different.

Another option would be that Civia EMU that's doing some hydrogen-power tests, which I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that has been leased to CAF precisely for these tests.
I think they painted it in blue.
EDIT: it's not that, there are two EMUs coupled. Could it be a train for Northern Rail in Britain? I seem to remember they had purchased some CAF rolling stock to run on things like Liverpool-Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York-Newcastle, or something similar, and they were blue.



Coccodrillo said:


> I have another question about the Zaragoza-Tardienta-Huesca line. How much of it is new? It doesn't seem an entirely new HSL, but it also doesn't seem old.* Maybe it is mostly the old line, which has been doubled and built new on some short stretches?*


Yes.
It's the old line, which has a lot of straight alignments, with the new standard-gauge track having better bends, and around three flyovers (Miraflores, Cogullada, and San Juan de Mozarrifar, if I remember well) to avoid interaction with the Iberian-gauge tracks.

If the whole of the classc Spanish network (or at least, the sector between Canfranc, Zaragoza and Lleida) were regauged to standard-gauge, Zaragoza-Tardienta would very likely be reelectrified (from 3kV to 25kV) and considered a double-track classic line, maybe still allocated to Adif-Alta Velocidad so Huesca authorities and lobbies didn't scream _"discrimination, we're being deprived of our AVE, oh no!!! Bad, bad government!!!"_, even if the travel time would stay exactly the same, with the reliability of the line increased due to the double track... ...



Coccodrillo said:


> A note about Huesca station. I know it has always been dead end, and in the past (before the construction of the bypass) trains to Canfranc reversed twice, in the station itself and just before the switch leading to the dead end station. But why they decided to build a bypass, instead of building a new station along the old through alignment, around here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huesca · Huesca, Spain
> 
> 
> Huesca, Spain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.ch


Because they wanted to eliminate a number of level crossings at Huesca, so they went for a new line by-passing Huesca from outside.



Coccodrillo said:


> What do you mean, alserrod? I don't understand you. Puedes escribir tanbién en castellano, para mi no es un problema. Aunque es 10 años que no vengo en España, y no hablo español, lo entiendo siempre y deseo volver antes de que la línea de Pajares cierre.


He means that the line between Huesca and Canfranc is closed due to renovation works between Plasencia del Monte and Ayerbe. Out the old rails with wood sleepers, in new welded rails with monoblock sleepers.


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## Coccodrillo

Thank you. There aren't that many trains beyond Huesca, so the level crossings wouldn't have caused any real problem. But yes, I know, politicians.


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## alserrod

There were three daily trains for passengers and usually one for freight in weekdays.

Main problem was it wasn't a road anymore but an avenue with traffic and pedestrians.

Nowadays, as said, no traffic from Huesca to Canfranc because works. It is expected to open again within a month and track will be new until Ayerbe (and a nightmare Ayerbe-Canfranc)


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## Khaul

alserrod said:


> There were three daily trains for passengers and usually one for freight in weekdays.
> 
> Main problem was it wasn't a road anymore but an avenue with traffic and pedestrians.
> 
> )


So?


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## alserrod

It's a bit surprising, of course

In Spain, all new lines or roads must have level crossings. This is, we only have those old ones, and there's a plan to remove them.
Nevertheless, in Huesca bypass, project was to improve the tracks and it was easier to have it out of the city


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## 437.001

alserrod said:


> In Spain, all new lines or roads must have level crossings.


????? 😶 😶 

In Spain, all new railway lines must *not* have level crossings, and the plan is to adapt as many of the old railway lines to eliminate them wherever and whenever it is possible.

As for roads, it depends.
If it's a general road, it may have them (a zebra crossing, for instance).
If it's a motorway, it can't have them.


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## alserrod

437.001 said:


> ????? 😶 😶
> 
> In Spain, all new railway lines must *not* have level crossings, and the plan is to adapt as many of the old railway lines to eliminate them wherever and whenever it is possible.
> 
> As for roads, it depends.
> If it's a general road, it may have them (a zebra crossing, for instance).
> If it's a motorway, it can't have them.



Ops!!!! 
"must remove any" I wanted to say!!


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## alserrod

Back to Tardienta

This is full project for Tardienta - Huesca - Jaca - Canfranc for tracks and stations

For every station, in RED, current situation
in BLUE, further situation. In GREY, tracks to dissapear.

Tardienta is in page 1 and followings


Related to works on Plasencia del Monte - Ayerbe, this is a cool picture.

This is Ayerbe station. (Works finish in that station)

As said, there's not any railway traffic in these days. It is supposed to have it within a month or so.


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## Coccodrillo

Are these the old sleepers? They seems modern but broad gauge only, and I suppose all new tracks are now build with double gauge sleepers.


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Back to Tardienta
> 
> This is full project for Tardienta - Huesca - Jaca - Canfranc for tracks and stations
> 
> For every station, in RED, current situation
> in BLUE, further situation. In GREY, tracks to dissapear.
> 
> Tardienta is in page 1 and followings


I think you forgot to add the link.


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## 437.001

Coccodrillo said:


> Are these the old sleepers? They seems modern but broad gauge only, [...]


The old ones, yes.
But not the original ones, this bit had been renovated with second-hand rails and sleepers some time ago.



Coccodrillo said:


> [...] and I suppose all new tracks are now build with double gauge sleepers.


You're right, the only possible exception are renovations made with second-hand rails and sleepers, which in some cases can turn out worse than having renovated.
These type of renovations can be useful in low-traffic lines (that is, if well done, because in some cases, they've been worse than not having renovated).


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> I think you forgot to add the link.



Sorry

Here you are



https://cdn.mitma.gob.es/portal-web-drupal/estudio_ferrocarriles/Huesca-Canfranc/planos/5.-estaciones-paets.pdf


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## alserrod

I have read this news in a lot of newspapers









Once jóvenes de despedida de soltero a bordo de un AVE pagarán a Renfe 7.676 euros por retrasar el tren


Los once implicados asumirán así las indemnizaciones que Renfe tuvo que pagar al pasaje por incumplir el...




www.europapress.es





In July 2018, eleven youth people (doesn't say the age) were on a party in a Madrid-Malaga train. After their behaviour in the cafeteria wagon, conductor required them to get off the train at Cordoba. Due to some reasons he was entitled to ask them for it.
Police had to be warned and it made a 23 minutes delay.
Renfe payed all the refund to all passengers because of that delay.

Today... a court has impossed those eleven people to pay that amount.
More than 7000 euro among all of them.


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## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼
That was not just any party, but a stag party.


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## alserrod

Back to Huesca trains.

First train Huesca - Zaragoza will depart 30 minutes earlier, focusing to link in Zaragoza with first AVE to Madrid









El primer tren Huesca-Zaragoza se adelanta media hora para enlazarlo con un AVE a Madrid - Aragón Digital


El primer tren Huesca-Zaragoza se adelanta media hora para enlazarlo con un AVE a Madrid - Aragón Digital




aragondigital.es


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> The same bad situation is between Barcelona airport and Sans train station. I would have definitely used more the AVE for my trips to Spain if there were more direct connections between airports and AVE stations.


Yeah, only Malaga has good train connection to airport. One train every 20 minutes all the year.
Madrid T4 and Barcelona T2 have direct connection to AVE whilst the rest of terminals haven't




NCT said:


> In any case extending Atocha AVEs to Chamartin still wouldn't help, as there still isn't a direct train between T1-3 and Chamartin.


True.
As said, I have moved from Atocha quais to Barajas T2 after underground in just 32 minutes. Two trains. Commuter Atocha-N Ministerios and underground line 8 to Barajas.
But... they are two extra trains. Easy to take them. No ladders, no corridors, easy to jump, but two trains.





Muiderpoort said:


> The stretch between Chamartin and the Airport Barajas can potentially be used by AVEs, no?


Yeah but....

same tunnel (exactly same tunnel)
need to have two gauges
need to have trains with commuter catenary

It will be expensive, not only for works but on tickets. Price would be the same (as destination would be Madrid-Barajas) but trains will run empty (most of passengers would have got off in Chamartin or Atocha), everybody would be off at Barajas and... will have to return to Chamartin empty.

There are only three tracks at Barajas. Two for commuter (one train every 15 minutes, let's hope to increase them) and there's one extra platform.
In one extra platform, an AVE can arrive and everybody get off, but train should return to Barajas ASAP. There's no space to clean it, fit the cafeteria, nor you cannot park it for a while.
One AVE arriving to the airport, two trains in the tunnel with absolutely no saving time compared with commuter.

There will be some trains but ...






AndreiB said:


> Could it mean the end of Madrid - Barcelona flights? Say, running AirRail trains Barcelona - Atocha - Barajas?


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## alserrod

clickgr said:


> The same bad situation is between Barcelona airport and Sans train station. I would have definitely used more the AVE for my trips to Spain if there were more direct connections between airports and AVE stations.



Bonus, AFAIK, Madrid has an "airport taxi fee". A taxi from the airport to anywhere in Madrid (inner M-30) cost 30 euro without any extra charges.

May you travel with kids and baggage... I would use it. It's only 7,5 euro/person
A single ticket for underground from Airport to anywhere in Madrid is 5 euro/person


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## Suburbanist

Connecting major international hubs to high speed rail lines is a no-brainer. Schiphol and Frankfurt are the best examples. They really help extend the reach of the airport. In the case of Spain, it could help kill off what remains of internal domestic flights used almost only by connecting passengers.


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Bonus, AFAIK, Madrid has an "airport taxi fee". A taxi from the airport to anywhere in Madrid (inner M-30) cost 30 euro without any extra charges.
> 
> May you travel with kids and baggage... I would use it. It's only 7,5 euro/person
> A single ticket for underground from Airport to anywhere in Madrid is 5 euro/person


That’s exactly what I am doing over the last 10 years since I got my first kid. I decided it makes no sense to deal with metro and suburban railways anymore and I take the taxi to Atocha. More expensive but in the end It’s worth it. I travel in peace.

I also now prefer to travel via Barcelona airport rather than via Madrid, and I travel more often like this if I can find similar priced tickets, besides the fact that Madrid has direct AVE to Huesca (my final destination). Not because it is more convenient but because I have someone there to pick us up by car at the airport and then continue towards Huesca avoiding any train.

By the way, this Christmas I decided to give high-speed train a chance again after some years not using it. I am flying to Barcelona where I booked a hotel room near Barcelona Sants for a night and on the next day I am taking Ouigo (not AVE) to Zaragoza. Again it is much more expensive but it is the only way for me to use high speed train without being stressed.


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## alserrod

Was it more expensive an Ouigo????

I guess you had surfed on Iryo too, didn't you?

No news between Zaragoza and Huesca. Well.... increase in more than double the number of passengers due to free tickets for commuters


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## davide84

AndreiB said:


> Could it mean the end of Madrid - Barcelona flights? Say, running AirRail trains Barcelona - Atocha - Barajas?


A good airport connection could surely mean a reduction of Madrid-Sevilla flights. A flight is 1h 10', but you have to wait at least one hour for the connection, and in Sevilla you have to take a long and sweaty bus to the center. AVE is 2h 40' from Madrid, maybe 3h from Madrid airport if connected, that's competitive. And the extra passengers could justify an increase in frequencies above the average 1 train per hour per direction.


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> Was it more expensive an Ouigo????
> 
> I guess you had surfed on Iryo too, didn't you?


Hotel for 4 + 4 tickets Ouigo was more expensive than AVE on the same day right after the flight.
From Zaragoza to Huesca I don’t know yet how I travel. I haven’t booked anything. Either by Bus or by local train if the are convenient schedules. If not there might be someone coming from Huesca to pick us up by car.


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## clickgr

Suburbanist said:


> Connecting major international hubs to high speed rail lines is a no-brainer. Schiphol and Frankfurt are the best examples. They really help extend the reach of the airport. In the case of Spain, it could help kill off what remains of internal domestic flights used almost only by connecting passengers.


I have used high-speed trains from stations located inside international airports in multiple occasions. From Paris CDG TGV towards Lille, from Lyon St. Exupery TGV towards Grenoble and from Frankfurt airport ICE towards Würzburg. In all those occasions it was indeed very convenient. I wish there were more airports with this option.


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## alserrod

davide84 said:


> A good airport connection could surely mean a reduction of Madrid-Sevilla flights. A flight is 1h 10', but you have to wait at least one hour for the connection, and in Sevilla you have to take a long and sweaty bus to the center. AVE is 2h 40' from Madrid, maybe 3h from Madrid airport if connected, that's competitive. And the extra passengers could justify an increase in frequencies above the average 1 train per hour per direction.



I am not sure for it.
According to skyscanner.com next Monday November 21st there are FOUR flights Madrid-Seville. All of them are operated by Iberia Express.

I would bet all of them are focused to flight transfer (you can buy a ticket from anywhere to Madrid with Iberia and they offer you connection).
Nevertheless... four flights in a Monday is not a concurrence, nor it seems passengers would want to avoid the train.
Seville has nice flight destinations but it is not so big as Barcelona or Madrid.


In my homecity, Zaragoza, flight to Madrid was gone in 2008 or 2009. I remember media said it was gone after 60ish years operating all days. After high speed, just some flights were operating focused on transfers but... there was really no market




clickgr said:


> Hotel for 4 + 4 tickets Ouigo was more expensive than AVE on the same day right after the flight.
> From Zaragoza to Huesca I don’t know yet how I travel. I haven’t booked anything. Either by Bus or by local train if the are convenient schedules. If not there might be someone coming from Huesca to pick us up by car.


Got it.

You already know Zaragoza station. Trains are the same, six daily regionals.
May they fit you, nice.
May you have to wait a lot of time, bus every 60 minutes, just 30 in peak hours.


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## davide84

alserrod said:


> I would bet all of them are focused to flight transfer


I see your point... but being a bit optimistic, flight transfer could be exactly replaced by AVE, as it is happening (sometimes) in Germany and Switzerland.
Lugano airport closed and now Swiss offers integrated tickets flight+train.
This is of course a huge and uncertain discussion, but a proper AVE connection with Madrid terminal(s) would be a clear prerequisite for it.


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## alserrod

I agree

I always thought it was a mistake Madrid-Guadalajara line (towards Zaragoza and Barcelona)

May it had started in Chamartin, it would had crossed Barajas airport by a tunnel


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> In my homecity, Zaragoza, flight to Madrid was gone in 2008 or 2009. I remember media said it was gone after 60ish years operating all days. After high speed, just some flights were operating focused on transfers but... there was really no market


For Zaragoza internal flights don’t make much sense for most of the country destinations, apart from the very remote ones of course like the Canary islands, Baleares etc. definitely not for Madrid or Barcelona. However as long as the AVE network doesn’t have good access to the big Spanish international airports, Zaragoza airport has still some good potential for some international flights.

Just before COVID times they had introduced a season Munich-Zaragoza flight. Very useful for someone like me who travels from Germany to Huesca. Unfortunately it didn’t last long due to the pandemic. There was also another Frankfurt-Pamplona flight, that could also be useful for my case but again it didn’t last long for the same reason. I hope there will be more international flights to Spanish regional airports like them in the future.

With such an extensive high-speed rail network in Spain, regional airports should be focused more on international flights rather than on internal flights I believe.


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## 437.001

*Rumour*

According to this article ( *El tren más eficiente entre todos los que circulan por vía convencional (diariodeleon.es)* ), the Alvia Barcelona-Coruña and vv, and the Alvia Barcelona-Vigo and vv, would start running on the HSL between Leon and Burgos on November 21, 2022.
Awaiting official confirmation.
If true, travel time between Leon and Burgos (and between Coruña and Barcelona, or between Vigo and Barcelona, or between Leon and Barcelona) will decrease by 30min.
On the downside, Sahagún station (on the classic line) will no longer be served by this train.


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## davide84

One thing that surprises me about Spain is that activations happen at any time of year. In other places new services usually start in December with the new (inter)national timetable, sometimes in June.


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## NCT

I guess Spain’s sparse frequencies make it pretty easy for new services to be slotted in. With more intensive operations you’d need a timetable recast so have to wait till December.


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## Coccodrillo

I find more absurd that often you know nothing until a few weeks before, if not days. The trains diverted on the Burgos-Leon HSL cited by 437.001, which implies a change in their timetable and thus canges to tickets already issued, are due just 8 days from now. And it is still a rumor, so maybe the timetable may change, maybe not, we don't know.

The strictes rules of timetable change are in Switzerland. No change can be made outside the mid-December timetable change, not only for trains, but also urban transport never change outside that date. There are exceptions, of course: for trains, this happened 4 times in the last 12 years, when there have been mid-year timetable changes on a certain number of lines. Of these 4 mid-year changes, two were planned years in advance (the full 2014 and 2019 timetable has been officially published the November of the previous year already with modifications due in the course of the timetable), and two were emergency timetables introduced due to COVID (the first was introduced during the first wave in March 2020, the second was introduced in April 2021 because there have been delays in infrastructure improvement works which didn't end on time in December 2020). Urban transport timetables change mid-year more often, but not as much as everywhere else, say once every 4 or 5 years in a given city.


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## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> I find more absurd that often you know nothing until a few weeks before, if not days. The trains diverted on the Burgos-Leon HSL cited by 437.001, which implies a change in their timetable and thus canges to tickets already issued, are due just 8 days from now. And it is still a rumor, so maybe the timetable may change, maybe not, we don't know.
> 
> The strictes rules of timetable change are in Switzerland. No change can be made outside the mid-December timetable change, not only for trains, but also urban transport never change outside that date. There are exceptions, of course: for trains, this happened 4 times in the last 12 years, when there have been mid-year timetable changes on a certain number of lines. Of these 4 mid-year changes, two were planned years in advance (the full 2014 and 2019 timetable has been officially published the November of the previous year already with modifications due in the course of the timetable), and two were emergency timetables introduced due to COVID (the first was introduced during the first wave in March 2020, the second was introduced in April 2021 because there have been delays in infrastructure improvement works which didn't end on time in December 2020). Urban transport timetables change mid-year more often, but not as much as everywhere else, say once every 4 or 5 years in a given city.



All schedules Barcelona - Miranda will be the same. The rest of them will have minimal changes.

I travel, from time to time, Zaragoza-Palencia. It will, still, have the same timetable


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## Coccodrillo

This means that Galicia > León trains will travel later, while León > Galicia trains sooner. For some users it might be better, for other worse, but anyway it isn't serious to change timetables basically without notice. A reasonable amount of time would be giving two months before the change, or, better, one day more than the period you can reserve tickets in advance. In Switzerland timetable change are published 6 months in advance (new line openings are usually defined years before), with rare exceptions (like diversions because of works, natural disasters, COVID and so on).


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## alserrod

This means....

Barcelona (XXX)- Miranda 
and
León -(...) Galicia

same time

Barcelona - Burgos
20 minutes more

Barcelona - Palencia
same time (4 minutes less)

Barcelona - León and keep on to Galicia
20 minutes less


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## alserrod

Coccodrillo said:


> This means that Galicia > León trains will travel later, while León > Galicia trains sooner. For some users it might be better, for other worse, but anyway it isn't serious to change timetables basically without notice. A reasonable amount of time would be giving two months before the change, or, better, one day more than the period you can reserve tickets in advance. In Switzerland timetable change are published 6 months in advance (new line openings are usually defined years before), with rare exceptions (like diversions because of works, natural disasters, COVID and so on).



In september 2008, third Zaragoza-Valencia daily train started to operate.

Schedules were published in web... AFTER first train had departed!!!

In SSC, the previous day we published something because there were some affiches in stations . We spotted them, but on web, after first train had departed.!!!

I think it is the record!

A local forumer posted schedules in June or July (for Leon-Burgos)


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## seakermdc

clickgr said:


> I wish there were such a direct AVE connection Madrid Chamartin-Zaragoza too. It would be very convenient especially for the airport. The airport in Madrid has very bad public transportation connection with Atocha.


I don´t know. Atocha is served with commuter rail as well Chamartin, Nuevos Ministerios (also is served by Line 8 of Metro) or Principe Pio. We have a new Project that will connect Atocha and Barajas by the extension of Line 11 Metroline.


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## NCT

On Atocha connectivity with Barajas - how feasible would it be to construct a Cercannias branch line for Terminals 1-3?

Feels like a more straightforward solution that would offer a more regular and frequent service. The location of Barajas is such that it's unlikely to be on a through AVE service, and any that does go there would predominantly carry fresh air so there wouldn't be a sufficiently frequently service to anywhere.


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## alserrod

NCT said:


> On Atocha connectivity with Barajas - how feasible would it be to construct a Cercannias branch line for Terminals 1-3?



Almost impossible.

Open google maps and search Madrid
Set layer "transport" (instead of traffic or whatever) and go to the airport

You will see...











Purple line, Metro line 8
It serves both T2 and T4 (and it has an intermediate station in the neighbourhood of Barajas)

Light blue and light green, commuter. That line comes from Chamartin. It just serves T4. Any enlargement would be through the north

In the opposite side, these are Madrid underground plans to be enlarged











Continuous lines, existing underground
Discontinous lines, projected underground.

For the airport

Line 5, light green, to be enlarged to the airport. 
JUST ONE STATION

In the atop picture (where I pointed T2 and T4 stations), realized that... line 5 appears in the bottom of the image
It is just to enlarge Line 5 to T2. Therefore, in T2 (T1 and T3) you will be able to use line 8 or line 5

Line 11. It is a current small line with only one junction. Dark green
It is projected to have a big diagonal stopping at Atocha and arriving to T4. It would not serve T2 but it will be easy to transfer even with line 5 or line 8 and direct to Atocha.

Nowadays, Atocha is served only by line 1 (and all commuters). I hereby know that a transfer from line 1 to line 5 is not so good.


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## NCT

alserrod said:


> Almost impossible.


I struggle to see what's so impossible about it.

Would it really be that impossible to run a new pair of tunnels from the vicinity of Valdebebas to T1-2-3? Service-wise the C2 that terminates at Chamartin from the south (the normal not the express service) can be extended to T1-2-3. This provides T1-2-3 with a good frequency without having add services to the core.


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## OriK

This is not even a rumour, but probably has been informally considered or even it's a postit in the "would be cool to have in the future" column in the Ministry of Transports projects board. I bring this just because it's pertinent to the discussion and it would be interesting to discuss it, but could be more a wish than a reality.

I read some rumours some months ago in the Spanish forum about the possibility a future (very long term) bypass from the Barcelona line to Chamartin + the North via a new HS station in the Barajas airport.

It would involve a long tunnel from Valdebebas to pass under the airport between T4 and T123 (where the station could be located) and then the tunnel would turn right to continue below the runways meeting the M-50 running in parallel and then crossing it and also the Henares river and... that's where the Madrid-Barcelona line is.

At the moment there's no way to justify such an expensive solution when you can just reach Atocha and Chamartin via conmuter train (from T4) or Atocha via the 24/7 shuttle bus (all terminals), but it might be interesting in the future if rail gets to attract more passengers, the network core gets completed and companies push to create combined air and rail tickets.


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## clickgr

Something that many people do not realize by just looking at the lines and the services between Barajas airport and Atocha, is how big those stations are and therefore how complicated is to find your way inside them and access your train. Only if you have hands on experience as a traveler who is not living in the city and doesn't know the network well, you can actually feel the problem.

Barajas is one of the biggest airports in Europe with 2 main big terminal stations T1,2,3 & T4 far away from one another and with huge halls with shops, many levels etc. Atocha is again a huge railway hub where to just go from the Cercanias terminal to the AVE terminal and vice versa inside the station, you need to walk a lot, to use moving stairs or elevators and to navigate yourself in a chaotic environment through shops, cafes, ticket offices etc. and with many people moving around around you. Even if there is a direct train exactly from your airport terminal to Atocha, you need again to walk a lot looking always at signs trying to find your way, looking for ticket machines and queuing at them to get your ticket, looking for time tables, looking to find the right train etc.

All these things add frustration to the whole process, especially when you have limited time available to catch your high-speed train or your flight. This is the reason why high-speed train stations and in general Intercity train stations inside the airports are so useful and exist in other countries.

The problem with Barajas is that with the existing line design, Ave trains can only terminate at Barajas and only at one of its terminals (T4). They can not travel through the airport as an intermediate station which is the case with most of such airport train stations abroad. That means even if the AVE finally reaches the airport some day, with the existing infrastructure only a limited amount of AVE services will serve the airport, it is not possible all of them to terminate there.

However, what is possible and easier to do with the existing infrastructure, is to add Chamartin as an additional train stop for most of AVE services passing through Madrid, or to at least use the trains traveling to the north of Spain and stopping at Chamartin to offer connection services with a single ticket to the trains traveling to the south and east and terminating at Atocha. In other words the airport travelers would at least not have to take the metro or Cercanias trains up to Atocha but only up to Chamartin, and in Atocha they would only need to move between different platforms but inside the same AVE terminal, not moving around the whole station.

With frequent trains or buses between T1,2,3 and T4 and between T4 and Chamartin the situation can be significantly improved for those passengers until another more efficient solution with a new tunnel infrastructure is implemented.


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## arctic_carlos

Construction of the flyover south of Atocha to allow Barcelona - Chamartín high speed services has already been tendered (and even a small part of it has already been done to avoid that the environmental impact assessment expires). 

However, as its construction is also linked to the construction of the new 4 underground platforms at Atocha high speed station, connected to the Atocha-Chamartín high speed tunnel, one cannot expect that this new flyover will open to service before the new underground platforms are ready.

Why? Because commercially is quite disastrous when not all services from the same corridor depart from the same station (or at least call in it) in Madrid. So some Madrid-Barcelona services will be shifted to Chamartín station only when it is assured that they can also call at Atocha underground (provided the flyover is ready). 

Of course, these services could also be originating somewhere else in Northern Spain (namely Galicia), like is now happening with through AVE trains to Valencia and Alicante coming from Ourense or Burgos.


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## (fabrizio)

Having HS trains passing through Barajas airport would be a great move for Spain. One of the few European cities to integrate those two transport modalities... Be nice if it were to come to fruition.


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## clickgr

Passing through train stations inside airports is a common thing in Switzerland. Both Zurich and Geneva airports have such a stations were you can get Intercity trains (there are no high speed trains in Switzerland) to go to other cities without calling at Zurich or Geneva main train stations, or without changing train at those stations.

I think in Madrid's case the problem stems from the initial poor design of the High-speed lines around the city. Although T4 is a relatively new and very modern terminal constructed in the 00's, it hasn't been designed from the begging with access to AVE trains in mind. Probably the reason is the initial bad planning, where the Ciudad Real airport was considered to play that role for the AVE network. This airport was build around the same time as the Barajas terminal and was a big failure. If they had thought from the begging about this role for Barajas, the Madrid-Barcelona line and the lines to the north would probably have had a different layout via Barajas.


----------



## OriK

clickgr said:


> However, what is possible and easier to do with the existing infrastructure, is to add Chamartin as an additional train stop for most of AVE services passing through Madrid, or to at least use the trains traveling to the north of Spain and stopping at Chamartin to offer connection services with a single ticket to the trains traveling to the south and east and terminating at Atocha. In other words the airport travelers would at least not have to take the metro or Cercanias trains up to Atocha but only up to Chamartin, and in Atocha they would only need to move between different platforms but inside the same AVE terminal, not moving around the whole station.


Chamartín is already a stop for all the AVE services passing through Madrid. Trains calling at Atocha start/end in Atocha and cannot go beyond.
Renfe HS tickets include the trip between Chamartín and Atocha in commuter trains (the train ticket from the airport is also included by the way).

I know that's not what you mean and it's not ideal, but as per today, HS trains cannot call at both Chamartín and Atocha, that will not be possible because current Atrocha station is a terminus, the future new Atocha underground HS station built in the HS tunnel will make that possible (it's still unknown how you will be able to transfer between the underground and the ground terminal).



clickgr said:


> With frequent trains or buses between T1,2,3 and T4 and between T4 and Chamartin the situation can be significantly improved for those passengers until another more efficient solution with a new tunnel infrastructure is implemented.


I don't understand this.

there's a free and frequent bus service for going between all terminals
Transport between terminals | Adolfo Suárez Madrid Barajas | Aena 
there's a metro line between T2 and T4 (5€) T4 metro station is side by side with the train station.
there's a regular train service, included in the AVE ticket, from T4 to Chamartín and Atocha allowing a same-terminal transfer to the AVE in Chamartín and a less convenient but doable transfer at Atocha
there's a 5€ express bus service calling at all the terminals in the airport and Atocha: https://www.esmadrid.com/sites/default/files/bus_expres_aeropuerto_madrid_mayo_2019.pdf



clickgr said:


> Although T4 is a relatively new and very modern terminal constructed in the 00's, it hasn't been designed from the begging with access to AVE trains in mind


At that time it wasn't sure if Barajas would be the option for the future and it seemed that a new airport for the city would be built in Campo Real (South East of Madrid).


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## clickgr

OriK said:


> I don't understand this.
> 
> there's a free and frequent bus service for going between all terminals
> Transport between terminals | Adolfo Suárez Madrid Barajas | Aena
> there's a metro line between T2 and T4 (5€) T4 metro station is side by side with the train station.
> there's a regular train service, included in the AVE ticket, from T4 to Chamartín and Atocha allowing a same-terminal transfer to the AVE in Chamartín and a less convenient but doable transfer at Atocha
> there's a 5€ express bus service calling at all the terminals in the airport and Atocha: https://www.esmadrid.com/sites/default/files/bus_expres_aeropuerto_madrid_mayo_2019.pdf


I think I described in detail what the problem exactly is.

I said:

*1. *if you have easy and frequent transportation between Chamartín and all airport terminals, no matter how (metro, train, bus),

*AND 

2.* if you can get an AVE train at Chamartín to any final destination, either directly or via an AVE to AVE connection (connection included in the AVE ticket),

then things will be much better for the travelers.

Regarding *1. *yes there is a regular train service, from T4 to Chamartín. However, there is no direct transportation from T1,2,3 to Chamartín. You need either to take the metro or the shuttle bus to move between the terminals and then to take the commuter train to Chamartín.


Regarding *2. *for the moment there is no such a thing.


----------



## arctic_carlos

clickgr said:


> I think in Madrid's case the problem stems from the initial poor design of the High-speed lines around the city. Although T4 is a relatively new and very modern terminal constructed in the 00's, it hasn't been designed from the begging with access to AVE trains in mind. Probably the reason is the initial bad planning, where the Ciudad Real airport was considered to play that role for the AVE network. This airport was build around the same time as the Barajas terminal and was a big failure. If they had thought from the begging about this role for Barajas, the Madrid-Barcelona line and the lines to the north would probably have had a different layout via Barajas.


This issue has been discussed in the Spanish forum dozens of times. The gradients of the Henares valley between Madrid and Guadalajara did not allow for this Chamartín-Barajas Airport - Barcelona HS route to be built or make it very difficult. And it would have probably obtained a negative environmental impact assessment as well.

That is why Atocha was chosen as the terminus in Madrid for the HSL to Barcelona. Just look at the important slope between the city of Guadalajara and the Guadalajara-Yebes HSR station. The HSL slowly starts to climb after leaving the Madrid city proper, avoiding the Henares valley, and thus allowing for a constant but easier gradient towards Calatayud/Zaragoza (I imagine you’re familiar with the rough terrain of both A2 and the HSL between Guadalajara and Calatayud).

I’m afraid that sometimes, what looks sensible and logical on a map, cannot be put into practice in real life.


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## alserrod

(fabrizio) said:


> Having HS trains passing through Barajas airport would be a great move for Spain. One of the few European cities to integrate those two transport modalities... Be nice if it were to come to fruition.





clickgr said:


> I think I described in detail what the problem exactly is.
> 
> I said:
> 
> *1. *if you have easy and frequent transportation between Chamartín and all airport terminals, no matter how (metro, train, bus),
> 
> *AND
> 
> 2.* if you can get an AVE train at Chamartín to any final destination, either directly or via an AVE to AVE connection (connection included in the AVE ticket),
> 
> then things will be much better for the travelers.
> 
> Regarding *1. *yes there is a regular train service, from T4 to Chamartín. However, there is no direct transportation from T1,2,3 to Chamartín. You need either to take the metro or the shuttle bus to move between the terminals and then to take the commuter train to Chamartín.
> 
> 
> Regarding *2. *for the moment there is no such a thing.


I agree

but option 3.... a new metro line 
Line 11





arctic_carlos said:


> This issue has been discussed in the Spanish forum dozens of times. The gradients of the Henares valley between Madrid and Guadalajara did not allow for this Chamartín-Barajas Airport - Barcelona HS route to be built or make it very difficult. And it would have probably obtained a negative environmental impact assessment as well.
> 
> That is why Atocha was chosen as the terminus in Madrid for the HSL to Barcelona. Just look at the important slope between the city of Guadalajara and the Guadalajara-Yebes HSR station. The HSL slowly starts to climb after leaving the Madrid city proper, avoiding the Henares valley, and thus allowing for a constant but easier gradient towards Calatayud/Zaragoza (I imagine you’re familiar with the rough terrain of both A2 and the HSL between Guadalajara and Calatayud).
> 
> I’m afraid that sometimes, what looks sensible and logical on a map, cannot be put into practice in real life.


I do not agree.

Ok, due to its gradient, Guadalajara has to be overpassed via south.
But a line departing from Chamartin and crossing Barajas could join current line after Alcala.

Cheap?. No. Definitely, nothing!!!

But a third, fourth or fifth tunnel under Madrid plus something to have some trains to airport isn't cheap at all too.

I am considering something like...

Chamartin, an Y to Segovia and to Zaragoza. In the Zaragoza line there will be a station under Barajas
Atocha, all trains through Aranjuez (Seville and Malaga)
A branch joining them from Alcala area to Parla area.

Therefore we will have

all trains coming from Segovia (Vigo, Gijon, Bilbao and so on) to Chamartin
all trains coming from Zaragoza (Barcelona, Pamplona and so on) to Chamartín with the possibility of calling at Barajas
all trains coming from Seville, Valencia and so on, to Atocha
trains Vigo-Segovia-Zaragoza-Barcelona calling at Atocha
trains Vigo-Segovia-Seville or Valencia calling at Atocha
trains Barcelona-Seville will not call at Atocha (there can be other stations like in Paris)

in addition, possibility of...
Barcelona-Zaragoza-Madrid Atocha (longer but possible)
Seville-Cordoba-Barajas-Madrid Chamartin


Expensive, but not impossible and, avoiding a new tunnel in Madrid, I wonder if more or less expensive

More useful for sure.

I live in Zaragoza.
I do not know when in hell I could have a Zaragoza-Valladolid direct train. Alvia takes a long time
I am sure there will not be any train to Barajas


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## NCT

Sounds to me the biggest elephants in the room are actually security checks and compulsory reservation. Those two factors do suppress demand (they put people off travelling) and contribute to the lack of clockface frequency on the Spanish AVE network.

Cross-city transfers are not that unusual - London and Paris both have them, and both cities have big labyrinths of stations - they come with the territory of being a large capital city.

As far as I'm considered there's a relatively cheap way of constructing a Cercanias branch line from Valdebebas to Barajas T1-2-3, and that'd give you direct services to both Chamartin and Atocha from all terminals. Yes, Atocha is big, but the way you minimise Atocha inconvenience factors is through doing away with security checks and compulsory reservation, and creating market conditions to support half-hourly frequencies on all the major AVE services out of Atocha. Make Atocha look and work more like a traditional railway station and less like an airport.


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## alserrod

Reservation is compulsory but I think the clue is to have an easy system to change it. Just some clicks.

Nowadays, new fares in Renfe let you doing it.
Iryo, depending on fare too
Ouigo, not so easy


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## clickgr

alserrod said:


> I agree
> 
> but option 3.... a new metro line
> Line 11


I do not think Line 11 addresses the main problem here which is moving around Atocha train station with your luggage and passing through many intermediate stations, check points etc. If I understood correctly, Line 11 will connect directly Barajas T4 to Atocha, which is already connected via Cercanias C1 & C10 and with less intermediate stops.


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## davide84

NCT said:


> Sounds to me the biggest elephants in the room are actually security checks and compulsory reservation.


Compulsory reservation is a non-issue, it's present in Italy since many years and still high speed is a plane-killer (on years when they don't screw up the timetable).

Security checks are a puzzle for me, it's what IMHO is damaging services to London and I don't think they should exist in Spain. Someone mentioned terrorism, Italy has its own stories of bombs on trains and they never went with the terminal concept. Maybe because rail was so used in Italy that it would have been impractical? Anyway, it's not needed.
Every time I read "AVE terminal" in this topic it reminds me to all the time I wasted in Granada and I think that this will be a serious issue in the future if the system tries to grow. I can't imagine Italian or Swiss railways staying attractive if they had to introduce waiting halls and X-ray baggage checking for Intercity services.

It looks like Spain is using the aviation industry model to develop the AVE services and that would be a serious mistake.
Railways should be closer to urban networks than to airports, at least when it comes to frequencies and ease of access. Where this is done, you clearly see the benefits.


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## arctic_carlos

Honestly, I’m Spaniard and never heard of anyone not using the Spanish AVE network because it has X-ray baggage checking. It’s something a little annoying, but that’s all. And it’s still ten times less uncomfortable than the security controls in airports.

I’d say price is actually the main deterrent in main routes (Madrid-Barcelona, for instance, can be cheaper by plane if you need to buy tickets within the same week), and in addition, the lack of services is terrible on other routes, where you have only 3-4 trains a day. 

Let’s not also forget that HSR is not at all practical for family groups (typical family of 4), where driving a car is much more economical and it allows more flexibility, both in schedules and when you need to use the car once you’re in your final destination (I’d say families with children do not usually go on holiday to big cities served by HSR, but prefer beach, mountain or countryside, where you almost always need a car).


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## clickgr

I also never had a big issue with the luggage control at the AVE stations in Spain. It is usually a fast process and can't be compared to security control at the airports. I remember only once to queue a little bit for luggage control at Bareclona Sants during a pick hour, but again it was not that terrible.



arctic_carlos said:


> Let’s not also forget that HSR is not at all practical for family groups (typical family of 4), where driving a car is much more economical and it allows more flexibility, both in schedules and when you need to use the car once you’re in your final destination (I’d say families with children do not usually go on holiday to big cities served by HSR, but prefer beach, mountain or countryside, where you almost always need a car).


That depends to where you are going and for what type of holidays. If you are going for long holidays to the beach or the countryside as you said, then yes car is more practical and flexible, but this is not only for families, it also applies to couples.

However, if you are visiting a big city over a long weekend or for a few days and planning to stay only in the city for sightseeing, museums, parks, restaurants etc. then train is much more practical and can also be more economical even for big families.

A few years ago we traveled as a family of 4 with small children from the very south of Germany to Berlin with the ICE to spend a long WE. It was 7 hours total journey with a couple of train connections via a special family ticket from Deutsche Bahn, around 200 euros in total round trip. Even that time with lower gas prices than now, it was cheaper than the car. Not to mention that you probably need to pay additionally for parking in Berlin. And in terms of time, it was around the same as to do the same way by car, but much more convenient for small kids to move around and play during the trip. DB and SBB have special family coaches in long distance trains. 

In Berlin we didn't need a car a single minute, we could move around very efficiently by tram and buses.


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## Suburbanist

I am not opposed in theory to security checks at railways stations, I just don't understand why AVE trains would be more dangerous for weapons and bombs than a packed commuter train like the one exploded by terrorists in Madrid some 12 years ago.


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## davide84

Plus you need to separate and specialize long-distance platforms, reducing the flexibility of the infrastructure. Maybe it's not a big issue for Granada, but I could not imagine the same model applied to Zürich, where even on underground long-haul tracks you can have regional services and even freight.

In Italy they have introduced gates to access tracks on major stations*, but you only need to show or scan a valid ticket, you loose a couple of seconds and you can still go everywhere at anytime. Spain could try this model for stations which will be reached by AVE in the close future, and then discussing about extending it back to existing stations.

*not really for bomb-like security, more to just reduce the amount of people who were there for reasons different from travelling...


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## K_

Reivajar said:


> Another important aspect is the possibility to offer multiple access to the platforms, while with security checks the access needs to be much more centralised.


That is what I mean when this slows down passenger movement. In Germany and Switzerland it is common for stations to have multiple underpasses (or overpasses) and entrances so that platforms are cleared quickly, and that you minimise walking distance from street to train regardless from which direction you come. Stations are typically open areas, where there is little getting in the way when changing trains.


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## TCM_091

davide84 said:


> Plus you need to separate and specialize long-distance platforms, reducing the flexibility of the infrastructure. Maybe it's not a big issue for Granada, but I could not imagine the same model applied to Zürich, where even on underground long-haul tracks you can have regional services and even freight.
> 
> In Italy they have introduced gates to access tracks on major stations*, but you only need to show or scan a valid ticket, you loose a couple of seconds and you can still go everywhere at anytime. Spain could try this model for stations which will be reached by AVE in the close future, and then discussing about extending it back to existing stations.
> 
> *not really for bomb-like security, more to just reduce the amount of people who were there for reasons different from travelling...


Renfe hast already this system in the long distance train. They usually don't check your ticket in the train, but in the station.



K_ said:


> That is what I mean when this slows down passenger movement. In Germany and Switzerland it is common for stations to have multiple underpasses (or overpasses) and entrances so that platforms are cleared quickly, and that you minimise walking distance from street to train regardless from which direction you come. Stations are typically open areas, where there is little getting in the way when changing trains.


The first High Speed Train in Spain (Madrid-Sevilla) sufered bomb threats from the terrrorist group Eta in the 1990's and since then is this security check implemented. I have travelled a lot in spanish trains and it really takes max 2 minutes. It's much much faster than in the airports and really didn't bother that much. If you change between long distance trains you don't have to pass thru the security again (at leats in Atocha that ist the main high speed hub), if you change between long distance and suburban train (cercanias or reginal), you don't have to pass thru the security (because is only for long distance high speed trains).

Cause Spain uses diferente rail gauge for high speed and other trains, these tracks and services are ususally separeted in the train stations, so the transfer distance wouldn't be any shorter. And because the big train station (e.g. Atocha) have separated arrivals and departures you can walk much faster than in any other european station full with people, some of them just commuters making the queue for a coffee. (at leats in the main german stations).

You can arrive to the train station only 2-5 minutes before departure and still get the train.


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## Attus

TCM_091 said:


> You can arrive to the train station only 2-5 minutes before departure and still get the train.


In Germany it works much better. In many cases you can arrive 20-30 minutes _after _the scheduled departure and you still get the train.


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## TCM_091

Attus said:


> In Germany it works much better. In many cases you can arrive 20-30 minutes _after _the scheduled departure and you still get the train.


😂 You are absoulty right "thank you for choosing Deutsche Bahn"


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## K_

TCM_091 said:


> The first High Speed Train in Spain (Madrid-Sevilla) sufered bomb threats from the terrrorist group Eta in the 1990's and since then is this security check implemented. I have travelled a lot in spanish trains and it really takes max 2 minutes.


These checks do not contribute to reducing the chance of a train bombing at all, as they are trivial to bypass. So it is all theatre.

They do however force everyone to go to the platform though one entrance. So you end up walking a lot more. That slows down passenger flows. Atocha could have been build with several cross passages between the long distance and the suburban part, so you could transfer between trains in minutes. Like it is for example in Zurich. 
And they do cost money and do cause queues at time. Having to stand in a queu should never be part of the experience while traveling by train.


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## K_

Attus said:


> In Germany it works much better. In many cases you can arrive 20-30 minutes _after _the scheduled departure and you still get the train.


Well, I should have said Switzerland. For two years I commuted from a suburb of Bern to Zurich, which involved a bus to a station, and a three minute transfer to the train. In two years I only missed that connection once. That is how public transit should be.


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## Reivajar

Funny enough, once I remember boarding an Alvia train in Jerez de la Frontera (without a security check) to be later transferred to a regular AVE at Sevilla-Santa Justa to end up in Madrid-Puerta de Atocha. I would say that in general with Alvias can be quite useless that approach, or when you have trains going to smaller "old style" stations. As well, probably, I was in that AVE train with people who went through the full security check in Seville or Cordoba. Quite senseless. I think that it is rather a psychological effect and customary in Spain at this point, but it does not make it better. Just a false perception of "safety" for some people.


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## wbrm

Or when you enter an international high speed train in France to Spain. These checks serve no purpose as a result of that and should be abolished at once.


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## Patryk

Spanish high speed trains (AVE) are the best in the world!


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## 437.001

*Rumours...*

Looks like these would be the next openings, in order (the first two are more or less imminent, it seems, but we lack official dates):

*1) HSL Orihuela-Murcia* (already on test runs, as previously informed. We're awaiting the official date of opening). Rumours say there might be four AVE Madrid-Murcia per day and direction, two of them calling (and reversing) at Alicante, the other two would not do the Alicante reversal, but the remainder of stops are a bit of a question mark, at the moment. More soon, I hope.

*2) new Antequera-Ciudad station* (for AVE Madrid-Granada, Avant Seville-Cordoba-Granada, and Avant Malaga-Granada).
Sources:


paco1984 said:


> La estación de AVE de Antequera entrará en servicio antes de que acabe el año o principios de 2023 según el PSOE
> 
> 
> Este mes terminarán las pruebas El Ministerio de Transportes, Movilidad y Agenda Urbana ya contempla poner en servicio la nueva estación de AVE de Ant...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.andaluciacentro.com





Antikariense said:


> View attachment 4241726


*3) Pajares base tunnels (Leon-Asturias HSL)*. Mid 2023, it seems.



=================================================================

After that, and not counting further improvements on the HSL Plasencia-Badajoz (electrification, signalling, double-trackings, etc...), the next things to open should be:

*a) Valencia-Xativa-La Encina* (Valencia-Xativa needs signalling and the upgrade of Xativa station, and Xativa-La Encina needs gauge change and reelectrification, not doable before the stretch between Moixent and La Font de la Figuera of the old classic line reopens, but that's due for 2023, it seems). Once it is ready, trains Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante will start using the HSL between Valencia and Alicante, also allowing for the extension of some services to Orihuela and Murcia).

*b) Puigdelfi chord (for trains Zaragoza-Lleida-Castellon-Valencia)*. Finished, but never seems to open due to lack of available rolling stock. No opening date at all.



=================================================================

And after that, there's:

1) *Murcia-Lorca-Almeria HSL*, which keeps on advancing, bit by bit.
2) the *Basque Y HSL (Vitoria <> Bilbao <> San Sebastian)*, still plagued by the lack of concretion of the Bilbao Abando and Vitoria stations (although Vitoria can be skipped).


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## 437.001

*Rumour...*



437.001 said:


> Looks like these would be the next openings, in order (the first two are more or less imminent, it seems, but we lack official dates):





437.001 said:


> *1) HSL Orihuela-Murcia* (already on test runs, as previously informed. We're awaiting the official date of opening). Rumours say there might be four AVE Madrid-Murcia per day and direction, two of them calling (and reversing) at Alicante, the other two would not do the Alicante reversal, but the remainder of stops are a bit of a question mark, at the moment. More soon, I hope.


December 21, 2022 seems to be the date.

There seems to be a sketch for the new services (unofficial but trustworthy inner source, but subject to possible change, and also editions of this post as I'm awaiting extra info):

*AVE Madrid Chamartin-Murcia*
Departures from Madrid Chamartin at 09:15, 19:30 (not sure whether all will run daily or not, awaiting extra info).
Intermediate stops unknown, but won't call at Madrid Atocha or Alicante.

*AVE Madrid Atocha-Alicante-Murcia*
06:30, 14:25 (not sure whether all will run daily or not, awaiting extra info).
Intermediate stops unknown (except Alicante, where the train will reverse).

*Avant Alicante-Murcia*
Departures from Alicante at 07:00, 08:40, 10:10, 12:50, 15:15, 17:15, 19:55, 21:55 (not sure whether all will run daily or not, awaiting extra info).
Calling at Elche-AV, Callosa de Segura-Cox, Orihuela, Beniel.

*AVE Murcia-Madrid Chamartin*
Departures from Murcia at 06:15 (only Saturday), 06:25 (only Monday to Friday), 13:55.
Intermediate stops unknown, but won't call at Alicante or Madrid Atocha.

*AVE Murcia-Alicante-Madrid Atocha*
11:50, 19:25.
Intermediate stops unknown (except Alicante, where the train will reverse).

*Avant Murcia-Alicante*
Departures from Murcia at 06:40 (only Monday to Friday), 08:15, 10:10, 12:50, 15:15 (only Monday to Friday), 17:15, 19:55, 21:55.
Calling at Beniel, Orihuela, Callosa de Segura-Cox, Elche-AV.
Murcia-Alicante in around 53/54min.


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## K_

437.001 said:


> *AVE Madrid Chamartin-Murcia*
> Departures from Madrid Chamartin at 09:15, 19:30 (not sure whether all will run daily or not, awaiting extra info).
> Intermediate stops unknown, but won't call at Madrid Atocha or Alicante.


Why have a southbound AVE originate in Madrid Chamartin?


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## Muiderpoort

K_ said:


> Why have a southbound AVE originate in Madrid Chamartin?


It would make perfect sense if the train would call at both Atocha and Chamartin, but this really doesn't. It means all passengers originating or having final destination South of Chamartin have a longer journey since have to reverse.

It could make sense if the train come from or would continue North of Madrid, but that also isn't the case.


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## 437.001

K_ said:


> Why have a southbound AVE originate in Madrid Chamartin?


It's two trains, not one. And it will be the norm as the number of trains will increase.

The reason is capacity at Madrid Atocha.
With the new operators, and the need to clear off the trains from between two and four platforms to be able to begin the works of the new four Atocha through underground platforms, most of the AVE services to Valencia, Alicante and Orihuela/Murcia, have been diverted to Madrid Chamartin (and Ouigo to Valencia too, I believe).

However, this temporary measure didn't go down all too well among the Valencian politicians, who started claiming to keep "their" trains (Valencia, Alicante, Orihuela are within the Valencia region) at Atocha.
So a compromise was found to keep some of them at Atocha, that's why some of the Murcia services (which are extensions of the current Orihuela services) will keep on calling at Atocha.

But most if not all of the AVE services (or Ouigo, Iryo, etc) to Orihuela and Murcia that will be created from now on, will depart from Chamartin (I'm not counting potential new diametral services from the north of Spain to Murcia, because they won't have that choice).

When the new four underground through platforms at Atocha will be ready, it won't matter much whether the train terminates at Atocha or at Chamartin, as the trains will be able to call at both stations.

But for now, there has to be this inconvenience, and there's no other way but to do this, as there is no other HSL that can be diverted from Atocha to Chamatin at the moment (to divert the Toledo or Andalusia services would only complicate things, as there would have to be a lot of crossovers at Torrejón de Velasco and a change of signalling system, and the Barcelona high-speed line has no physical connection to the tunnel towards Chamartin yet) .


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## 437.001

I've just found out that the Basque Y will keep the left-hand running typical of most of northern Spain.
There will be flyovers north of Vitoria.

The rest of the northern HSL's are right-hand running (although I'm curious about the Pajares base tunnels, as they're sandwiched between two stretches of left-hand running, too).


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## Coccodrillo

For trains it is basically indifferent if they run on the right or on the left. Sure, most older signalling systems on multiple track lines are optimized to have tracks dedicated to one direction only, but any modern signalling system is designed to have full capacity in any direction of travel. Having all traffic running on the left side one day, and all on the right side the other day, or having two trains running parallel to each other in the same direction is not a problem with modern signalling. So, why ADIF didn't uniform the running side on lines in the north of Spain?

Another country which has both left and right hand running lines is Austria, and it is converting all lines to right hand running. And the only modification needed to do that, is changing timetable signs in stations with a version with new track numbers.

France also has right hand traffic in Alsace, but here there already are flyovers to swap sides, there are more double track lines, and there is more traffic. There are also some sections with triple track, with the timetable designed to use them in a particular way, so as to swap sides there they would have to modify also the track layout.


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## TER200

Coccodrillo said:


> but any modern signalling system is designed to have full capacity in any direction of travel


I know this is the norm in Switzerland.
I don't know spanish signalling, but in France it's the exception (well, "modern signalling system" is almost a swearword for SNCF). On most of the network, using the tracks in opposition direction mean lower speed, lower capacity or even exceptional procedures with a result similar to a track without signals at all. So we'd need to completely rebuild the while signalling to swap sides. I wouldn't be surprised if the spanish network has the same problem.


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## NCT

My (very limited) understanding is that bi-directional signalling is not standard outside of Switzerland.


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## K_

437.001 said:


> The reason is capacity at Madrid Atocha.
> With the new operators, and the need to clear off the trains from between two and four platforms to be able to begin the works of the new four Atocha through underground platforms, most of the AVE services to Valencia, Alicante and Orihuela/Murcia, have been diverted to Madrid Chamartin (and Ouigo to Valencia too, I believe).


Atocha has 15 tracks in the long distance part. If they have to temporarily give up 4 because of works they still have 11. That should be enough for about 40 departures per hour. That this station would lack capacity is ridiculous. RENFE is again inconveniencing passengers by refusing to operate as a proper railway.



NCT said:


> My (very limited) understanding is that bi-directional signalling is not standard outside of Switzerland.


bi-directional signalling is normal for mainlines all over Europe. It is the norm on mainlines in Spain, and on most of the network in Belgium. I have been on TGVs that were running on the "wrong" track...


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## davide84

From what technology allows, the latest version of many national systems allows for bi-directional operation, however the issue is that the latest version of all the involved parts is used mostly on main lines, and not everywhere. Block circuits must be upgraded, signals cabling and electronics along the line as well, then the main systems controlling the lines... on top of this you have all the paperwork associated, upgrade rule books and procedures, educate people and so on. And even then some traffic managers still don't do it because it's complicated/annoying, either for real or in their old mind.
So in practice one can't give it for granted on the continent.


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## Khaul

K_ said:


> Atocha has 15 tracks in the long distance part. If they have to temporarily give up 4 because of works they still have 11. That should be enough for about 40 departures per hour. That this station would lack capacity is ridiculous. RENFE is again inconveniencing passengers by refusing to operate as a proper railway.
> 
> 
> 
> bi-directional signalling is normal for mainlines all over Europe. It is the norm on mainlines in Spain, and on most of the network in Belgium. I have been on TGVs that were running on the "wrong" track...


Yes, you can repeat as many times as you want that Tokyo station has only four tracks to share for the Tohoku, Joetsu and Hokuriku Shinkansen but Spanish rail people won’t listen and believe RENFE/Adif bs.


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## davide84

I don't know if Atocha could do 40 departures/h tomorrow, because we must also consider the number of tracks coming in and going out, the number of route conflicts and if the traffic there is homogeneous. I have the impression that the whole node is not so flexible.

Zürich Oerlikon does 57 departures plus some transits between 7:00 and 8:00 with 8 tracks, but there are 6 tracks coming in at each side, 3 flyovers on one side, and more or less the same speed for all services. Therefore a huge capacity with zero conflicts. The entire installation has been designed for this, the number of platform tracks alone is not sufficient. Bold and coherent planning through decades is the key to get this type of performance.
For its importance, Atocha could and should do better in terms of capacity, but probably it can't be organized in 1-2 years just because of the works... even more so if the works are meant to address some capacity constraints in the layout.


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## 437.001

davide84 said:


> I don't know if Atocha could do 40 departures/h tomorrow, because we must also consider the number of tracks coming in and going out, the number of route conflicts and if the traffic there is homogeneous. I have the impression that the whole node is not so flexible.


Careful there. 
Because...



davide84 said:


> Zürich Oerlikon does 57 departures plus some transits between 7:00 and 8:00 with 8 tracks, but there are 6 tracks coming in at each side, 3 flyovers on one side, and more or less the same speed for all services. Therefore a huge capacity with zero conflicts. The entire installation has been designed for this, the number of platform tracks alone is not sufficient. Bold and coherent planning through decades is the key to get this type of performance.


Attention, are you talking about all the departures and transits of Zürich Oerlikon, meaning the whole of long-distance & international rail, regional rail, and commuter rail/S-Bahn?
Because if you do, then you are not measuring the same things by the same standard.

Atocha does way more than 40 departures per hour, taken as a whole station (Iberian gauge platforms + standard gauge platforms).



davide84 said:


> For its importance, Atocha could and should do better in terms of capacity, but probably it can't be organized in 1-2 years just because of the works... even more so if the works are meant to address some capacity constraints in the layout.


*Atocha, taken as a whole, does, from 07:00 to 08:00, tomorrow December 14, 2022:

a) 79 Cercanías* (commuter/S-Bahn) departures (18 to Recoletos and beyond, 12 from Recoletos and beyond, 14 to Sol and beyond, 13 from Sol and beyond, 11 to Embajadores and beyond, 11 from Embajadores and beyond), all in Iberian gauge, and none originating or terminating at Atocha.
*b) 3 Regional (Regional, Media Distancia) and Long Distance (Intercity)* departures or arrivals (2 to Alcázar de San Juan or beyond, 1 from Alcázar de San Juan or beyond), all in Iberian gauge and originating or terminating at Chamartin.
*c) 15 Alta Velocidad (high-speed, meaning AVE, AVLO, Alvia, Intercity)* departures or arrivals (1 to Toledo, 2 from Toledo, 1 to Ciudad Real and beyond, 2 from Ciudad Real and beyond, 4 to Cordoba and beyond, 1 to Zaragoza and beyond, 2 to Barcelona and beyond, 1 from Barcelona and beyond, 1 to Pamplona), all from the standard-gauge bay platforms.

*Totalizing 97 departures or arrivals by Renfe*, of which only 15 are on the standard gauge bay platforms, and 82 are on the very strained Iberian gauge platforms (particularly the platforms for the Recoletos tunnel lines, which have to make room for five different Cercanías lines just by themselves).
I'm not counting the Chamartin southbound high-speed departures (trains terminating/originating at Valencia or beyond, and trains terminating/originating at Alicante station) because they do not call at Atocha anymore.
*And I'm not counting Ouigo/Sncf or Iryo/Trenitalia either, only Renfe.*
Oh and of course, this is less than pre-Covid.

What exactly were you measuring Atocha against Zürich Oerlikon for (or any Swiss big station for that matter)? 

Aaaaand... did you realise that Castile-La Mancha alone is nearly as big as Austria, and nearly twice the size of Switzerland (and that the sum of Madrid + Castile-La Mancha is larger than Austria, and does double the size of Switzerland), but with a total much smaller population and density (if we take Madrid aside), not to talk about the size, population and density of the whole of central Spain (not to say the whole of Spain), of which Atocha does cover only just about the half of it (Atocha does cover destinations in Castile-La Mancha, Extremadura, Andalusia, Alicante, Murcia, Catalonia, Aragon, Navarre, and La Rioja, the rest of Spain being covered by Chamartin and Príncipe Pío)? 

Aaand... did you realise about the different rail density of Switzerland and central Spain (or even the whole of Spain if you want), and that Madrid and Castile-La Mancha are two of the Spanish regions that were hit the hardest by rail closures between 1960 and 1985, three of them happening post-2000, and by the way, one as recent as mere months ago (the Cuenca classic line)? 

Lastly, do you realise that the Spanish high-speed network is not completely working at full pelt, due to the number of stretches that are under construction, or not completely finished (missing sections, single-track sections), including the underground high-speed platforms at Atocha itself, and including the Alvia trains running through gauge changers in plenty of places all throughout Spain, and that this does not only affect Renfe, but also Sncf and Trenitalia, or even SBB if it ever chose to start operating in Spain? 

I don't know, I get the impression that you're comparing apples and oranges... 😶


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## Bitxofo

Patryk said:


> Spanish high speed trains (AVE) are the best in the world!


^^Visit Japan, please!!


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## NCT

Assuming Open Railway Map is correct, there's a six-track approach into Atocha high speed (1435mm track gauge), with two track each for the Barcelona, Seville and Valencia directions. It appears the eventual intended layout is that Barcelona and Seville lines will go into the main train shed which has 15 platforms, and the Valencia line will go into low level. Track capacity looks pretty generous, in theory each track should be able to handle up to 18 trains per hour.

If trains can turn around at Atocha in 25 minutes, then 15 platforms can in theory handle 30 turnarounds per hour. In reality you'd want a bit of slack, so call that 28, so 14 tph on each line. 25-minute turnarounds are pretty tight for European long-distance operations, but given the relative 'captive' nature of Spanish HSR the risk of delays is pretty low, so 25 minutes should be OK. Low level will have 4 platform faces, and that should be able to handle 12tph through movements with ease (7-minute dwell with 3-minute reoccupation), could potentially have a bit more with tighter dwells (you don't want the dwells too tight due to nearly the whole train getting on or off).

I've not studied the throat layouts of the terminus platforms in detail in terms of parallel moves, but at first glance they look OK.

In terms of medium-term demand, I think 6-8 tph on each line sounds about right. For example on Madrid - Barcelona you might have these 3 sets of 2tph services:

Madrid - Barcelona direct
Madrid - Zaragoza - Lleida - Camp de Tarragona - Barcelona
Madrid - Gradalajara-Yebes - Calatayud - Zaragoza - Barcelona
The directs might even be 4tph during busy parts of the day - if Rome - Milan can do it, then Madrid - Barcelona can too.

So as to whether Atocha will be able to handle realistic passenger demand, I think the answer is yes.


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## Reivajar

Anyhow, we can't compare Puerta de Atocha (terminus) with Zuerich Oerlikon. They are completely different type of stations. If we prefer, let's compare Oerlikon with Atocha Cercanias.
A more appropriate comparison would be Zuerich HB (platforms 3-18) with Puerta de Atocha (platforms 1-15). Then, you can try to identify differences in operations and detect possible bottlenecks, whether they are caused by inefficient track layouts, poor rotation management, or slow passenger movement, among others.

The discussion about Atocha capacity started rather due to the deviation of Valencia, Alicante and Murcia trains to Chamartin due to limited capacity in Atocha. It is likely to be the case as you need to close a couple of track in Puerta de Atocha (so not anymore 15 tracks, but rather 13) while keeping enough room for the services coming from Valencia and so. About 24 services per hour during the renovations is enough?

There is another "trick" in Atocha as well, which is the use of half platforms and diamond crossovers. When not using double trainsets (400 m), you can have up to 3 services using 2 platforms, which gives you some extra capacity. In these maths,@NCT (by the way, thanks for sharing them), you are missing the future services to Extremadura. More importantly, the final layout of Atocha expects to be able to allow enrouting services from all the Atocha's HSLs (Barcelona, Valencia/Alicante, Seville/Malaga, Extremadura/Portugal) through the Atocha-Chamartin tunnel (and then to the Northwest HSL) by building new flyovers South of Madrid. That would ease operations in the future too and will ease hustle on these terminus platforms.

Following up with the discussion about the capacity of Atocha, my understanding is that for allowing the planned massive works and renovations you need to send a few services to Chamartin if you do not want to disrupt operations and overall HS network capacity. That's a temporary fix. I am not fully sure if 13 platforms are enough for accommodating all the services using HSL to Barcelona, Valencia/Alicante/Murcia and Sevilla/Malaga. The current layout of the station allows for a decent amount of operations, and it will be much more in the future with the underground platforms connecting to the North. My feeling, however, is that the limitations of the station are actually cause by handling passengers and boarding process, due to the particularities of the Spanish HS system, rather than due to pure infrastructural reasons (i.e., track and platforms layouts). Another negative factor would be using Puerta Atocha for parking trains for long periods of time, which should be completely disincentivize by Adif. But I have seen that as well in Zuerich HB, so not sure how it may affect.


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## davide84

I feel completely misunderstood.

Oerlikon was just an example and my real comment was:

# of platforms alone does not determine capacity, the layout of the whole node does
one should not complain too much about Atocha capacity during construction works, the final project matters more
People replied "Atocha is not Oerlikon". Well, ok.


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## NCT

Reivajar said:


> There is another "trick" in Atocha as well, which is the use of half platforms and diamond crossovers. When not using double trainsets (400 m), you can have up to 3 services using 2 platforms, which gives you some extra capacity. In these maths,@NCT (by the way, thanks for sharing them), you are missing the future services to Extremadura. More importantly, the final layout of Atocha expects be able to allow enrouting services from all the Atocha's HSLs (Barcelona, Valencia/Alicante, Seville/Malaga, Extremadura/Portugal) through the Atocha-Chamartin tunnel (and then to the Northwest HSL) by building new flyovers South of Madrid. That would easy operations in the future too and will ease hustle on these terminus platforms.


Will Extremadura be a 4th pair of tracks out of Atocha, or will it just branch off the Seville line? If the latter, Extremadura services are just part of my 6-8tph Seville line estimates. You might even have 10, if Seville, Malaga, Toledo, Lisbon direct, Lisbon semi-fast all justify half-hourly frequencies, and that should still be comfortably accommodated.

I'm not sure about all lines having trains going into Atocha tunnel. As a passenger I'd prefer having trains in the same direction going from the same part of the station. Operationally, keeping the 3 approach lines independent has clear performance advantages.


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## Reivajar

NCT said:


> Will Extremadura be a 4th pair of tracks out of Atocha, or will it just branch off the Seville line? If the latter, Extremadura services are just part of my 6-8tph Seville line estimates. You might even have 10, if Seville, Malaga, Toledo, Lisbon direct, Lisbon semi-fast all justify half-hourly frequencies, and that should still be comfortably accommodated.
> 
> I'm not sure about all lines having trains going into Atocha tunnel. As a passenger I'd prefer having trains in the same direction going from the same part of the station. Operationally, keeping the 3 approach lines independent has clear performance advantages.


Who knows what will happen with the section between Madrid and Talavera of the HSL. Ideally, it will be part of the Seville HSL as it could be just a continuation of the Toledo branch toward Extremadura.


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## 437.001

NCT said:


> Assuming Open Railway Map is correct, there's a six-track approach into Atocha high speed (1435mm track gauge), with two track each for the Barcelona, Seville and Valencia directions.


Not exactly.

There's a four-track approach into Atocha high-speed (bay platforms), which is used for trains from the Barcelona, Andalusia and Toledo HSL's, plus the Valencia/Alicante/Murcia trains that terminate at Atocha.

And, parallel to that, and in places, separated from the former by Iberian-gauge tracks, there's a double-track approach into what will become Atocha low-level and nowadays is a short stretch in single track underneath the station and which is sanchwiched between two double-tracked stretches of line (one between Chamartin and the north side of Atocha, the other between the south side of Atocha and the Torrejón de Velasco junction (which is actually the main pair of tracks of the Valencia/Alicante/Murcia HSL).

At the moment there is no physical connection between the Barcelona HSL and the HSR tunnel to Chamartin, but its construction started, albeit it is at a very initial stage.

There is a physical connection between the Valencia and Toledo/Andalusia HSL's, but that's as far as the Torrejón de Velasco junction, and it implies crossovers (not complete! just one track to the next in the same direction, but at certain times of the day, that can be considered a crossover in Spanish or French - not sure about that in English) to access Chamartin (northbound) or Andalusia/Toledo (southbound).

I've sometimes read in the Spanish forum about the need of a better layout at the Torrejón de Velasco junction.



NCT said:


> It appears the eventual intended layout is that Barcelona and Seville lines will go into the main train shed which has 15 platforms, and the Valencia line will go into low level.


No, it's all goes into all.


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## NCT

437.001 said:


> No, it's all goes into all.


It might be that eventually all will be _able _to go into all, it's still useful to have some operational discipline, and distinguish between main lines and crossovers. Will the all lines to all platforms connections be grade separated for all movements, or will they just be flat crossings?


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## 437.001

Reivajar said:


> There is another "trick" in Atocha as well, which is the use of half platforms and diamond crossovers. When not using double trainsets (400 m), you can have up to 3 services using 2 platforms, which gives you some extra capacity. In these maths,@NCT (by the way, thanks for sharing them), *you are missing the future services to Extremadura*.


And Murcia, Cartagena, Lorca/Aguilas, and Almeria...

Besides, there's a beginning of a rumour about a tunnel under the Strait (Valdevaqueros to Tanger, it seems), I don't know what to make of it, but if it ever came to fruition, it would have to involve a full HSL Seville-Jerez, plus a new line between somewhere between Jerez and Puerto Real on one end, and Valdevaqueros on the other... to be extended to Algeciras, if affinities. So that could mean extra trains on the Andalusian end of the line.


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## 437.001

NCT said:


> It might be that eventually all will be _able _to go into all, it's still useful to have some operational discipline, and distinguish between main lines and crossovers. Will the all lines to all platforms connections be grade separated for all movements, or will they just be flat crossings?


100% grade separated for the low-level, crossovers at the end of the platforms for the bay platforms, and grade separated between there and the junctions (understand I'm using terminology the Spanish way, I know that in Britain a junction is also what we can call just "point A3" or something of the like, we call a junction, "bifurcación" in Spanish, the separation of two different lines).


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## 437.001

davide84 said:


> I feel completely misunderstood.
> 
> Oerlikon was just an example and my real comment was:
> 
> # of platforms alone does not determine capacity, the layout of the whole node does
> one should not complain too much about Atocha capacity during construction works, the final project matters more
> People replied "Atocha is not Oerlikon". Well, ok.


It's just that I didn't quite get what you meant. Now it's clearer.


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## 437.001

NCT said:


> *Will Extremadura be a 4th pair of tracks out of Atocha*, [...]


Unless something radically changes, and that would probably mean something very expensive and unlikely, no.



NCT said:


> [...] or will it just branch off the Seville line?


Most certainly.

Under the two current scenarios, the Extremadura/Portugal HSL would:

a) be a simple extension of the Toledo HSL (the most advantageous solution for all, as it means less mileage to build, and adding a very juicy extra number of passengers - and not just the tourists).

b) branch off the Andalusia HSL at Pantoja, somewhere in between the Torrejón de Velasco/Yeles junctions and the La Sagra junction where the Toledo HSL begins (which is the faster solution as it shortcuts Toledo, but it's not very desirable if Lisbon isn't connected 100% through HSL).

c) if full HSL to Lisbon and demand demanding it, then maybe a) and then b).


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## 437.001

NCT said:


> I'm not sure about all lines having trains going into Atocha tunnel. As a passenger I'd prefer having trains in the same direction going from the same part of the station. Operationally, keeping the 3 approach lines independent has clear performance advantages.


I get the point, and that's precisely where we are now, with Valencia and Alicante politicians making quite a bit of a racket about having to go to Chamartin (which happens to be closer to the main business districts anyway, but further away from the more leisurely old town - which incidentally, also includes the Congress, if you know what I mean...), so they managed to keep some trains at Atocha (which is at the southeastern edge of the old town).

However, Madrid is at the geographical centre of the country.

It's quite a different location for a capital than Paris, London, Rome, Berlin, Dublin or Lisbon, which all are on an edge of country, or close to it.
Come to think of it, not that many European capitals are that central in their respective countries... Bern and Brussels, perhaps, can't think of many more.
Rome and Lisbon are, more or less, and Dublin too, but they're on the coast, so they're not completely central. 

For many cross-country services, running via Madrid is the fastest option.
Say, the AVE Ourense-Alicante, which already exists, and which has a very good end-to-end travel time, even if it calls at Chamartin for well over a quarter of an hour.
But as more stretches of line open, more of these services will be created.


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## NCT

I can see that at Bifurcation Torrejon de Velasco the Seville and Valencia lines connect with each other. All that's needed then is a Barcelona line to Atocha low level connection which I'm led to believe is in the works?

Bifurcacion Torrejon de Velasco is an ordinary grade separated junction as opposed to a 'double' junction like the one just west of Weesp in the Netherlands. This means a Valencia line to Atocha high level service, and a Seville line to Atocha low level service can't move in parallel, but have to go one after the other, which takes up more capacity than if those trains just stuck to their respective lines (they they could parallel move in). This wouldn't be a huge issue in the medium term, as with 6-8tph on each line you could get away with not having any parallel moves at all. Depending on the number of crossing moves, Torrejon de Velasco could be operating close to capacity and be a performance weak link when you are really only running a low intensity service in much of the country.

In any case, there will always only be a limited number of services from the south running through, and the number of north-south pairings getting direct services will be a tiny subset of the potential number of cross-Madrid journeys that might want to be made. For every 1 person who happens to have a direct train there will be 10 people who'll still have to change. So the actual value of the flexibility of trains from all lines being able to go in the tunnel is more symbolic than practical. You could increase the number of direct connections by having different trains doing different things in different hours, but that's best avoided.

Much more effective would be to bring ticketing into the 21st Century, have through tickets and non-compulsory tickets, then you have faff-free and stress-free interchanges between the two parts of Atocha where you can just catch the next available train. Going from Seville to Ourense, rather than waiting for that one train per day that does the capacity-sapping move at Torrejon de Velasco, you have consistent, identical journey opportunities every hour (or even every half hour) from 0430 to 2130, and your origin and arrival times will always be the same minutes past every hour, and your transit route and transit time through Atocha will always be the same regardless of what time of day you travel.


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## Stuu

NCT said:


> Much more effective would be to bring ticketing into the 21st Century, have through tickets and non-compulsory tickets, then you have faff-free and stress-free interchanges between the two parts of Atocha where you can just catch the next available train. Going from Seville to Ourense, rather than waiting for that one train per day that does the capacity-sapping move at Torrejon de Velasco, you have consistent, identical journey opportunities every hour (or even every half hour) from 0430 to 2130, and your origin and arrival times will always be the same minutes past every hour, and your transit route and transit time through Atocha will always be the same regardless of what time of day you travel.


100% agree with ticketing and making RENFE understand about changing trains... however, because of the sheer geographic size of Spain, there is a value to offering through trains. If you are doing Seville-Ourense, that's going to take five hours and then some, essentially the majority of what you do on that day, so you plan your day around the departure time of the train. When journeys are shorter, then of course flexibility is far more important but that is much less of a factor when it is taking up so much time. Personally I would much rather have a break of journey and stretch my legs, but many people do prefer a direct train.

So if you were in Seville, a pattern of one fast Madrid, one stopping Madrid, and one somewhere else each hour could work i.e. one to Galicia, one to Vizcaya, one to Barcelona, one towards Valencia and repeat, so three direct trains each day to the other quarters of the country. That would mean a lot of the country would have direct or same platform changes to pretty much all other major destinations


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## 437.001

*News

HSL Orihuela-Murcia*



437.001 said:


> *Rumour...*
> 
> December 21, 2022 seems to be the date.


Finally it's December 20, 2022.
Best travel time Madrid-Murcia 2h48min, best travel time Murcia-Madrid 2h45min.
Best travel time Alicante-Murcia 53 min, best travel time Murcia-Alicante 49 min.

*Source (official press releases): *
1) Avant Alicante-Murcia* Renfe reorganiza la oferta de trenes de servicio público *
2) AVE Madrid-Murcia *El AVE Madrid-Murcia comenzará el servicio el 20 de diciembre (renfe.com)*

*Madrid-Alicante-Murcia

-Avant 33075 (runs Monday to Friday) - Alicante 07:00 *> Elche-AV 07:19 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 07:27 > Orihuela 07:33 > Beniel 07:40 >* Murcia 07:53
-Avant 33085 (runs daily) - Alicante 08:40 *> Elche-AV 08:59 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 09:07 > Orihuela 09:13 > Beniel 07:20 >* Murcia 09:33
-AVE 05662 (runs Monday to Saturday, Avant 33662 between Alicante and Murcia) - Madrid Atocha 06:30 *> Cuenca 07:26 > Albacete 08:00 > Villena-AV 08;34 > Alicante 09:01 > Elche-AV 09:23 > Orihuela 09:38 >* Murcia 09:55 
-Avant 33105 (runs daily) - Alicante 10:10 *> Elche-AV 10:29 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 10:37 > Orihuela 10:43 > Beniel 10:50 >* Murcia 11:05
-AVE 05962 (runs daily) - Madrid Chamartin 09:15 *> Elche-AV 11:32 > Orihuela 11:47 >* Murcia 12:12 
-Avant 33125 (runs daily) - Alicante 12:50 *> Elche-AV 13:09 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 13:17 > Orihuela 13:23 > Beniel 13:29 >* Murcia 13:43
-Avant 33155 (runs daily) - Alicante 15:15 *> Elche-AV 15:34 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 15:42 > Orihuela 15:48 > Beniel 15:55 >* Murcia 16:08
-AVE 05742 (runs daily, Avant 33742 between Alicante and Murcia) - Madrid Atocha 14:25 *> Cuenca 15:21 > Albacete 15:55 > Villena-AV 16:29 > Alicante 16:56 > Elche-AV 17:18 > Orihuela 17:33 >* Murcia 17:50
-Avant 33175 (runs Monday to Friday) - Alicante 17:15 *> Elche-AV 17:34 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 17:42 > Orihuela 17:48 > Beniel 17:55 >* Murcia 18:08
-Avant 33195 (runs daily) - Alicante 19:55 *> Elche-AV 20:14 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 20:22 > Orihuela 20:28 > Beniel 20:35 >* Murcia 20:48
-AVE 05792 (runs Monday to Friday, and Sunday) - Madrid Chamartin 19:30 *> Elche-AV 21:46 > Orihuela 22:02 >* Murcia 22:19
-Avant 33215 (runs daily) - Alicante 21:55 *> Elche-AV 22:14 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 22:22 > Orihuela 22:28 > Beniel 22:35 >* Murcia 22:48



Murcia-Alicante-Madrid

-AVE 05763 (runs Monday to Friday) - Murcia 06:25* > Orihuela 06:41 > Elche-AV 06:55 > *Madrid Chamartin 09:10
-AVE 05773 (runs only Saturday) - Murcia 06:15* > Orihuela 06:31 > Elche-AV 06:46 > Albacete 07:34 > Cuenca 08:08 > *Madrid Chamartin 09:12
-Avant 33067 (runs Monday to Friday) - Murcia 06:40 *> Beniel 06:50 > Orihuela 06:56 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 07:02 > Elche-AV 07:10 >* Alicante 07:32
-Avant 33087 (runs daily) - Murcia 08:15 *> Beniel 08:25 > Orihuela 08:31 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 08:37 > Elche-AV 08:45 >* Alicante 09:07
-Avant 33107 (runs daily) - Murcia 10:10* > Beniel 10:20 > Orihuela 10:26 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 10:32 > Elche-AV 10:40 > *Alicante 11:02
-AVE 5803 (runs daily, Avant 33803 between Murcia and Aicante) - Murcia 11:50* > Orihuela 12:06 > Elche-AV 12:20 > Alicante 12:55 > Villena-AV 13:15 > Albacete 13:49 > Cuenca 14:23 > *Madrid Atocha 15:18*
*-Avant 33127 (runs daily) **-* *Murcia 12:45* > Beniel 12:55 > Orihuela 13:01 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 13:07 > Elche-AV 13:15 > *Alicante 13:37
-AVE 5843 (runs daily) - Murcia 13:55* > Orihuela 14:11 > Elche-AV 14:25 > *Madrid Chamartin 16:40*
*-Avant 33157 (runs daily) **- Murcia 15:00 *> Beniel 15:10 > Orihuela 15:16 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 15:22 > Elche-AV 15:30 >* Alicante 15:52*
*-Avant 33167 (runs Monday to Friday) **- Murcia 16:50* > Beniel 17:00 > Orihuela 17:06 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 17:12 > Elche-AV 17:20 > *Alicante 17:42
-AVE 05903 (runs Monday to Friday, and Sunday, Avant 33803 between Murcia and Aicante) - Murcia 19:25* > Orihuela 19:40 > Elche-AV 19:54 > Alicante 20:24 > Villena-AV 20:44 > Albacete 21:18 > Cuenca 21:52 > *Madrid Atocha 22:47*
*-Avant 33197 (runs daily) **- Murcia 19:50 *> Beniel 19:59 > Orihuela 20:05 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 20:11 > Elche-AV 20:19 >* Alicante 20:42*
*-Avant 33217 (runs daily) **- Murcia 21:20 *> Beniel 21:30 > Orihuela 21:36 > Callosa de Segura-Cox 21:42 > Elche-AV 21:50 >* Alicante 22:12*


The press releases don't say it, but some trips between Murcia and Orihuela on one end, and Valencia, Castellon, Tarragona, or Barcelona on the other end, which include changing at Alicante station to/from one of the new Avant services, have also been shortened.

And of course, there also are some extra possible trips between Madrid, Cuenca, Albacete, and Villena-AV on one end, and Elche-AV, Orihuela, and Murcia on the other, by changing at Alicante to/from one of the new Avant services.


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## 437.001

*Rumour...*

Okay, so according to an inner source...



437.001 said:


> Most certainly the reopening of the classic line between Moixent and La Font de la Figuera (in single track), which means the beginning of the gauge change (from Iberian to standard) and voltage change (from 3kV to 25kV) of the HSL between Xativa and La Font de la Figuera,





437.001 said:


> which will mean the opening of the full HSL between Valencia-Xativa-Villena AV, and thus the connection between Alicante and Murcia in the south to Valencia in the north (and further north to Castellon, Camp de Tarragona, Barcelona, Girona, and Figueres-Vilafant via the Valencia gauge changer), with a rather significant cut in travel times for the long-distance services along the Mediterranean coast, and in particular the extension of the Euromed services Barcelona-Alicante and vv to Elche-AV, Orihuela, and Murcia. Extra stops of these services at Xativa and Villena-AV will be possible.





437.001 said:


> We still do not know the exact date of the reopening of the classic line, and the exact date at which the gauge and voltage change will begin, but trains already run in single track between La Encina and La Font de la Figuera, so they're already doing preliminary works. Further north, the classic line is being renovated between L'Alcúdia de Crespins and Xativa (related to the reopening of Moixent-La Font de la Figuera and the HSL Valencia-Xativa-Villena), and also (and unrelated to anything HSL, actually more related to the third rail of the Mediterranean Freight Corridor) between La Pobla Llarga and Silla.


...the reopening of Moixent-La Font de la Figuera on the classic line, which at the same time will mean the closure of Novetlè-La Font de la Figuera on the HSL for its regauging and reelectrification, will happen "within weeks".
Fingers crossed, because these works have been going on for very long now, and what's left is not a lot, for the benefit it will offer, once complete.


----------



## clickgr

What about the Burgos-Vitoria section? I thought it was about to be finished within 2023.

Also, what is the status of the Antequera-Sevilla line? Works had been stopped for years now but before that there was a good progres in the section between Antequera and Marchena. Are they resumed? Are they going to resume any time soon?


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## 437.001

clickgr said:


> What about the Burgos-Vitoria section? I thought it was about to be finished within 2023.


No.
And in fact, works haven't even started on it... 
It is being planned as I write, but there will still be a good few years before works on it begin.
The Basque Y will open earlier than Burgos-Vitoria.



clickgr said:


> Also, what is the status of the Antequera-Sevilla line? Works had been stopped for years now but before that there was a good progres in the section between Antequera and Marchena. Are they resumed? Are they going to resume any time soon?


Antequera-Seville is not a line built by Adif, but by the Andalusian government.
Its works were stopped dead by the 2008 crisis.
Only the bit of it around Aguadulce was given to Adif, as a replacement for a parallel bridge on the classic line which was destroyed by a flood.
There is no date for the works to resume at all. 
Mainly because the bit where works didn't ever start (Marchena to Seville Santa Justa via the Seville airport) is the most expensive, it would need a long tunnel under the Alcores hills.
And it's not likely that Adif takes over the Andalusian government on it, since Adif, instead of taking over, decided to build the Almodovar chord (much cheaper, and equally effective to save travel time).
Besides, the design of the line by the Andalusian government was a bit of a conflict, as Osuna and Pedrera would have lost their town-centre stations.
That may sound irrelevant, but those two stations generate a significant amount of passengers, which would be reduced if the stations were to be moved to a much more peripheral location.
That said, if those two stations were to be left unbuilt, and the HSL be finished as a pure HSL, while at the same time maintaining the current regional rail service on the classic line, it could certainly open if it were finished. But that seems very unlikely at the moment.

What is advancing a bit, is the missing part of HSL between Antequera and Loja (on the Granada line). They're building a viaduct, and they're planning how to build the rest of it, although it will be a complicated affair, as it will run close to a significant, multi-era archaeological site (both Prehistorical and Roman, and I'm not sure if even Islamic), which is being excavated. But once finished, and if there's no archaeological trouble with it, the travel times to Granada will be cut by a good few minutes. It will include a new Loja station, replacing the current one on the classic line, it seems.

Oh, and I forgot (I edit my previous post), another thing that is very likely to open in 2023 is Antequera Ciudad station (on the Granada HSL).


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## clickgr

437.001 said:


> There is no date for the works to resume. Mainly because the bit where works didn't ever start (Marchena to Seville Santa Justa via the Seville airport) is the most expensive, it would need a long tunnel under the Alcores hills.
> And it's not likely that Adif takes over the Andalusian government on it, since Adif, instead of taking over, decided to build the Almodovar chord (much cheaper, and equally effective to save travel time).


That sounds to me as a big waste of infrastructure and money. Isn’t there any other way to somehow exploit the section already prepared for the line, for example to use a different route between Marchena and Seville?


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## keber

437.001 said:


> *Rumour...*
> 
> Okay, so according to an inner source...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...the reopening of Moixent-La Font de la Figuera on the classic line, which at the same time will mean the closure of Novetlè-La Font de la Figuera on the HSL for its regauging and reelectrification, will happen "within weeks".
> Fingers crossed, because these works have been going on for very long now, and what's left is not a lot, for the benefit it will offer, once complete.


Why do the first build new HSL with 3kV electrification and Iberian gauge and then change everything? Why not doing it that already from the start? That just complicates things and make them much more expensive.


----------



## arctic_carlos

keber said:


> Why do the first build new HSL with 3kV electrification and Iberian gauge and then change everything? Why not doing it that already from the start? That just complicates things and make them much more expensive.


In order to improve travel times between Madrid and Valencia, in the late 90s / early 00s, large sections of the Álcazar de San Juan - Albacete - Valencia classic line (in Iberian gauge) were upgraded to almost high speed rail standards. It was a very effective measure to get rid of some curvy sections without having to build a proper HSL between Madrid and Valencia (which eventually was routed via Cuenca).

Basically, that meant doubling tracks and building new alignments in some sections, which were fortunately designed so they could be used in the future for a proper HSL in standard gauge. Some of the previously improved sections between Albacete and La Encina junction were already converted to standard gauge a decade ago for the Albacete-Alicante HSL (opened in 2013),

However, the older single track alignments those new sections were replacing were unfortunately abandoned, so now its reconstruction in Iberian gauge has been necessary to provide alternative routes for the classic line and thus enable the gauge change of the newer improved sections.

Let’s not forget, that 20-25 years ago, HSR in Spain wasn’t as developed as it is nowadays (only Madrid-Seville in service and Madrid-Barcelona under construction), so building those isolated sections between Albacete amd Valencia in standard gauge wouldn’t have made any sense. With Iberian gauge, the new sections could be opened as soon as they were ready (in a similar way to the Atlantic corridor between Vigo and A Coruña), and that decision has proved its usefulness for over two decades.


----------



## 437.001

*News

HSL Valencia-Xativa-La Encina (Villena)*



437.001 said:


> Okay, so according to an inner source [...] the reopening of Moixent-La Font de la Figuera on the classic line, which at the same time will mean the closure of Novetlè-La Font de la Figuera on the HSL for its regauging and reelectrification, will happen "within weeks".
> Fingers crossed, because these works have been going on for very long now, and what's left is not a lot, for the benefit it will offer, once complete.


Test runs already happening on the old classic line between Moixent and La Font de la Figuera.
Source (Adif press release): *Adif y Adif AV ultiman las fases previas a la puesta en servicio del nuevo trazado en ancho convencional Xàtiva-Nudo de La Encina - Adif - AV - Adif (adifaltavelocidad.es)* 

This is now expected to open by late February 2023, a source says (but the exact official date is not known yet, and all is subject to change).

Immediately after the reopening, the HSL between Novetlè and La Font de la Figuera, which at the moment is in Iberian gauge and electrified at 3kV, will close for regauging (Iberian to standard) and reelectrification (3kV to 25kV).
Once that finished, and if by then there isn't anything else left to finish between Valencia and Xativa or between La Font de la Figuera and La Encina, and after the compulsory test runs, the HSL between Valencia and La Encina would open.
Initially it would be used by the Euromed services Barcelona-Alicante (some of which would rather likely be extended to Murcia),
As for the Intercity services Barcelona-Murcia (served by Talgo trainsets), we do not know whether they'll be maintained or not.
The Alvia Barcelona-Albacete-Alcazar de San Juan-Linares-Cadiz will keep on running on the classic line between Valencia and Albacete (at least, until they build a gauge changer on the north side of Albacete station, and until they finish the tracks of the La Encina HSL triangle, so a high-speed train could run straight from Valencia to Albacete)

In the press release linked further up this post, you can see this image:












🔼🔼🔼
That's a photo of the classic line between Moixent and La Font de la Figuera.
More precisely, it is the eastern portal of the Santa Barbara tunnel, between the former stations of La Parrilla, and La Font de la Figuera (which won't reopen, none of the two), but closer to the latter.
In this particular stretch, the tunnel has been built from scratch. The old, abandoned tunnel in single track lies to the right of the electrification pole, and is half-hidden behind the bushes (although if you pay attention you can see the top of the tunnel portal, just not the proper mouth of it).
It hasn't been reused so it will stay abandoned for the foreseeable, but I don't know the reason why. Maybe the loading gauge?


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## 437.001

*Update

HSL Valencia-Xativa-La Encina (Villena)*



437.001 said:


> The Alvia Barcelona-Albacete-Alcazar de San Juan-Linares-Cadiz will keep on running on the classic line between Valencia and Albacete (at least, until they build a gauge changer on the north side of Albacete station, *and until they finish the tracks of the La Encina HSL triangle, so a high-speed train could run straight from Valencia to Albacete*)


Last news (of today, although still to be confirmed officially) is that the La Encina HSL triangle will be completed (the chord that allows the Valencia-Albacete movement will have track laid and be electrified. Initially we thought that only the chord for Valencia-Alicante/Murcia would go ahead, leaving the Valencia-Albacete one for a later phase).

If this goes ahead, then the only thing keeping the Alvia Barcelona-Cadiz on the classic line between Valencia and Albacete would be the lack of a gauge changer on the north side of Albacete station (nowadays it runs on a HSL only between Barcelona and Camp de Tarragona, and between Cordoba and Seville).


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## K_

437.001 said:


> *c) 15 Alta Velocidad (high-speed, meaning AVE, AVLO, Alvia, Intercity)* departures or arrivals (1 to Toledo, 2 from Toledo, 1 to Ciudad Real and beyond, 2 from Ciudad Real and beyond, 4 to Cordoba and beyond, 1 to Zaragoza and beyond, 2 to Barcelona and beyond, 1 from Barcelona and beyond, 1 to Pamplona), all from the standard-gauge bay platforms.


You realise you are proving my point, right? 10 departures and 5 arrivals on 15 tracks in an hour. That is not a lot. Before the new underground tracks were built Zurich Hbf dispatched 4 trains per hour from each of the main terminal tracks. In Tokyo they dispatch 12 departures and 12 arrivals per hour from 4 tracks, on to a 2 track mainline...



NCT said:


> If trains can turn around at Atocha in 25 minutes, then 15 platforms can in theory handle 30 turnarounds per hour.


25 minutes to turn around is generous. Currently SBB will not buy trains that cannot be reversed in 4 minutes or less. When reversing trains required swapping engines SBB routinely did it in 5 minutes. Do not forget that it is quite common in Central Europe for trains to reverse several times during their run. The Hamburg - Interlaken ICE reverses 3 times en route...

Part of the problem is the way Atocha is build. The best place for a passenger concourse is above or below the tracks, even with a terminal station. That allows you to have lots of escalators and stairs to the platform, spread over its entire length. It should be possible to have a completely empty platform 4 minutes after a train arrived. Stations should be open, and easily accessed from all directions. In the case of Atocha this could probably still be fixed by building a mezzanine in that big hall, with a cross passage directly to the cercanias.


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## TCM_091

K_ said:


> You realise you are proving my point, right? 10 departures and 5 arrivals on 15 tracks in an hour. That is not a lot. Before the new underground tracks were built Zurich Hbf dispatched 4 trains per hour from each of the main terminal tracks. In Tokyo they dispatch 12 departures and 12 arrivals per hour from 4 tracks, on to a 2 track mainline...
> 
> 25 minutes to turn around is generous. Currently SBB will not buy trains that cannot be reversed in 4 minutes or less. When reversing trains required swapping engines SBB routinely did it in 5 minutes. Do not forget that it is quite common in Central Europe for trains to reverse several times during their run. The Hamburg - Interlaken ICE reverses 3 times en route...
> 
> Part of the problem is the way Atocha is build. The best place for a passenger concourse is above or below the tracks, even with a terminal station. That allows you to have lots of escalators and stairs to the platform, spread over its entire length. It should be possible to have a completely empty platform 4 minutes after a train arrived. Stations should be open, and easily accessed from all directions. In the case of Atocha this could probably still be fixed by building a mezzanine in that big hall, with a cross passage directly to the cercanias.


I don´t know if the problem is really how Atocha is built or how it is managed (or how Renfe is managed). Atocha already has a Mezzanie in the middle of the long distance platforms. Renfe turn all seats everytime they change the direction of traveling (I have seen it live, is really fast but it takes a couple of minutes per Wagon = ca. 15 minutes per train). This gives more confort to the passengers, but doesn´t allow or complicates crossing services like in some europeans countries (i.e. the Hamburg - Interlake you mentioned).

That´s why there are almost no Barcelona-Sevilla services with a stop in Madrid. Either they are "direct" trains without stopt in Atocha or you change trains in Atocha.


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## K_

TCM_091 said:


> I don´t know if the problem is really how Atocha is built or how it is managed (or how Renfe is managed). Atocha already has a Mezzanie in the middle of the long distance platforms.


You are right. Found a map now. And the way they arranged it they would actually be able to turn trains rather quick.

That having all seats point forward provides more comfort to passengers is something that exists in the imagination of some people, but has no base in reality. There is no need to turn all the seats.


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