# 2x5+ highways, are there (m)any in your country? (Europe)



## siamu maharaj (Jun 19, 2006)

Dahlis said:


> You cant stop them thats true, but you dont have to build roads either you can build tram or metrosystems instead.


You may enjoy this









But, there are still a lot of people who enjoy this


----------



## Triceratops (Nov 9, 2007)

I remember driving on 16-laned highway somewhere not far from Bruxelles, as well it's not the only one such wide road in Belgium as far as I remember, can someone provide pics of the sections?


----------



## H123Laci (Dec 6, 2007)

Dahlis said:


> Not high, but low. With high population density you build efficient metrosystems. In high density areas you dont need a car and therefor no 10 lane motorway.


in this case netherland is a counter-example... :lol:


----------



## H123Laci (Dec 6, 2007)

Dahlis said:


> You cant stop them thats true, but you dont have to build roads either you can build tram or metrosystems instead.


and where do you get the money from?
(PT is extremely expensive...)


----------



## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

drimer said:


> Not in Europe but in Argentina we have a 2x5 highway...
> its named "Autopista panamericana" or "Acceso Norte" (Panamerican Highway or North Acces)..
> 
> 
> ...


Hideous hno:


----------



## whizz_pat (Jul 30, 2008)

*H123Laci*,

What do you think would be more expensive:
a) moving a lot of poeple, each in their own metal box?
b) putting alot of people in one metal box, and then moving this box?

PT is only expensive relative to driving is some parts of the world because of the subsidies given to motorists.

Want proof? In developing countries, do you see many people driving to and from work because driving is cheaper that PT? No way.


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Lol, on a per-mile basis, the rail system requires twice the amount of space than the Dutch motorway system.


----------



## Koesj (Dec 27, 2006)

whizz_pat said:


> Want proof? In developing countries, do you see many people driving to and from work because driving is cheaper that PT? No way.


So how does your proof equate to, say, amorphous poly-nodal urban areas again? Is there even a cost-equation possible when 90% of job locations cannot be reached with the same level of comfort (eg. time, availability) compared to a motor vehicle? Of course it would be nice to compare these transport modes in a vacuum but a real-life metropolis is based on its historic structure.


----------



## H123Laci (Dec 6, 2007)

whizz_pat said:


> PT is only expensive relative to driving is some parts of the world because of the subsidies given to motorists.


well, in europe motorists pay enormous amount of car related tax, PT gets enormous amount of subsidy and yet the car is cheaper...

(at least for a busy working healthy adult... 
kids, pupils, pensioners, cripples, etc. are exceptions... :lol


----------



## Qwert (Jun 25, 2006)

This is the best we have in Slovakia. With merging lanes it's 3+2+2+3 so 10 lanes. The motorway in the middle can be, however, upgraded on 2x3. Also D1 between Bratislava and Trnava is going to be upgraded to 2+3+3+2 with space for future 2+4+4+2.










Link: http://212.5.204.197/#?#?=&zoom=15&lat=-1282139.75&lon=-574101&layers=0BFFFFFTT


----------



## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

H123Laci said:


> well, in europe motorists pay enormous amount of car related tax, PT gets enormous amount of subsidy and yet the car is cheaper...
> 
> (at least for a busy working healthy adult...
> kids, pupils, pensioners, cripples, etc. are exceptions... :lol


How is the car cheaper?


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

The car isn't cheaper, people forget costs like write offs and maintenance which you don't have with PT. But most people have a car anyway, so they have those costs, so it's a bit of waste to travel with Public Transportation and have double costs (not taking other factors such as comfort, reliability and travel times into account), hence PT is only cheaper if you don't own a car at all. Given the average of 0,9 - 1,1 car per household in many countries, that aren't a lot of people.

Nearly everybody has a car, a recent survey in the Netherlands showed that even the lowest income group doesn't use PT for more than 25% of their mileage, and use the bicycle and car for the rest.


----------



## Dahlis (Aug 29, 2008)

H123Laci said:


> and where do you get the money from?
> (PT is extremely expensive...)


Public transport is much cheaper than everywone driving their own car. You just need to do proper city planning, sprawl is our enemy, suburban malls are our enemy. Dense traditional inner cities and towns are the future.


----------



## Dahlis (Aug 29, 2008)

ChrisZwolle said:


> The car isn't cheaper, people forget costs like write offs and maintenance which you don't have with PT. But most people have a car anyway, so they have those costs, so it's a bit of waste to travel with Public Transportation and have double costs (not taking other factors such as comfort, reliability and travel times into account), hence PT is only cheaper if you don't own a car at all. Given the average of 0,9 - 1,1 car per household in many countries, that aren't a lot of people.
> 
> Nearly everybody has a car, a recent survey in the Netherlands showed that even the lowest income group doesn't use PT for more than 25% of their mileage, and use the bicycle and car for the rest.


Public transport can only work efficiently in major cities and thats what im talking about, cars are perfect in rural areas but they just dont work in the city. There is just no space for them!


----------



## Dahlis (Aug 29, 2008)

H123Laci said:


> well, in europe motorists pay enormous amount of car related tax, PT gets enormous amount of subsidy and yet the car is cheaper...
> 
> (at least for a busy working healthy adult...
> kids, pupils, pensioners, cripples, etc. are exceptions... :lol


How damn expensive is your public transport?


----------



## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Can we get back on topic, please?


----------



## siamu maharaj (Jun 19, 2006)

Dahlis said:


> Public transport is much cheaper than everywone driving their own car. You just need to do proper city planning, sprawl is our enemy, suburban malls are our enemy. Dense traditional inner cities and towns are the future.


PT isn't at all cheap when you figure in the comfort level.


----------



## H123Laci (Dec 6, 2007)

Dahlis said:


> There is just no space for them!


an average car recquires about 10m2 for parking...
for 1 million car its 10km2...
there are about 1 million car in budapest, and budapest is about 630km2...

if you cant find 10km2 for cars, you make something wrong...


----------



## H123Laci (Dec 6, 2007)

LtBk said:


> How is the car cheaper?


one stop (say 500m) with a bus or tram costs 1 euro in budapest.
with a car it costs 0,03 euro. 

so PT is 33 times more expensive... :lol:


----------



## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

H123Laci said:


> an average car recquires about 10m2 for parking...
> for 1 million car its 10km2...
> there are about 1 million car in budapest, and budapest is about 630km2...
> 
> if you cant find 10km2 for cars, you make something wrong...


It's a bit different though, because you park on different areas of the city, so you need more than one parking lot per car.



Verso said:


> Can we get back on topic, please?


Listen to Verso-man! :lol:


----------

