# Illegal population



## Chris Takagi (Mar 25, 2006)

^^ my point is, don't complain about something that you've also done in the past (200 years, not 2000). Rather hypocritical.
Anyhow, I was just bothered by the previous comment, about calling people "plagues". No offense to the US whatsoever, love the country and it's people


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## binhai (Dec 22, 2006)

^^rather hypocritical when Japan doesn't even allow immigrants and you're complaining about other countries complaining about illegal immigrants.


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

Chris Takagi said:


> ^^ my point is, don't complain about something that you've also done in the past (200 years, not 2000). Rather hypocritical.
> Anyhow, I was just bothered by the previous comment, about calling people "plagues". No offense to the US whatsoever, love the country and it's people


I think the story of the USA is much different from what's happening today though. When the Europeans came over, they were inhabiting what was in their eyes unclaimed land. They weren't coming to live within the Native Americans culture, they were "starting fresh".

Today when people immigrate, they know exactly what they're getting into, and are moving into a very established place with laws/rules/procedures.

People coming over to North America 350 years ago could basically do whatever they wanted. There were no set laws or conditions (until set up by the European Colonies).


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

The Chicago area has an estimated illegal population of around 550,000 people. A vast majority of them are from Mexico, followed by Central American countries.

The city though operates under a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, so exact numbers are extremely hard to come by.


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## socrates#1fan (Jul 1, 2008)

Chris Takagi said:


> ^^ One could say most of the US population are illegal immigrants to the lands that onced belonged to First Nations/Native Americans/Indigenous Population of North America. At least current immigrants to the US don't decimate the American population and confine the remaining people to so called "reserves".
> Oh, and having an illegal status in a country does not, under any circumstance, justify being called a "plague". That's just inhumane.
> Cheers


That excuse has been pulled so many times.
What happened to Native Americans was sick, but the people that live their now and are citizens are the natives and using the excuse that they are descendants of immigrants so illegal immigration is okay is just silly.
It isn't illegal immigrants fault; it is the people that hire them.
They should be fired and fined for both denying jobs to locals and taking advantage of illegal immigrants.
If we keep going back we can say the natives stole it from the animals who were here first.


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## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

London's population is vast... and of course unmeasured / impossible to estimate

Huge numbers of illegal Chinese working in the catering industry (i.e. Chinese restaurants), and vast numbers of people from non-EU Europe, Indian Subcontinent, Africa, South America who have overstayed their student visas.

Some illegals come in illegally via people trafficers, but the majority probably enter the UK legally on student or tourist visas and never go home. There's a whole industry of bogus colleges and universities which allow prospective illegals to sign up for courses to validate their student visas.

To be blunt these people oil the wheels of London's economy: by definition they have to work to survive and can't claim benefits, and they end up working for less than minimum wage. A lot of industries depend on them for survival, hence I think that raids on businesses employing illegals are only lip service and generally a blind eye is turned.


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## socrates#1fan (Jul 1, 2008)

Here in Indianapolis we have a somewhat large illegal population (mostly from Mexico) but I'm not sure exactly what the data is.
In smaller towns however, it is causing _a lot_ of social resentment, especially as the economy has gone poo.
Another problem is, a lot of illegal immigrants are respectful to the culture and country, but a lot of people aren’t, a woman at a lecture (not a student) even said that "If America isn't a Latino country, it soon will be" and that just makes locals even more irritated.
It is just one hell storm after the next but it ultimately goes back to employers and the government.
It really has made locals discouraged with the government and to some extant feel abandoned.
The worst part is people who are citizens and are Latino are grouped up with illegals.


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## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

After a bit of googling I came up with a 300,000 estimate for London, or about 5% of the population


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## Chris Takagi (Mar 25, 2006)

BarbaricManchurian said:


> ^^rather hypocritical when Japan doesn't even allow immigrants and you're complaining about other countries complaining about illegal immigrants.


I'm just complaining about a previous post, which I found rather offensive and uncalled for.
I'm not being hypocritical at all. In fact, I strongly oppose Japan's immigration policies. I belive immigration makes for richer, more varied experiences (in music, food, art; you name it)
Cheers :cheers:


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## MIBO (Aug 20, 2008)

BarbaricManchurian said:


> ^^rather hypocritical when Japan doesn't even allow immigrants and you're complaining about other countries complaining about illegal immigrants.


Japan does allow immigrants, I'm a foreigner in Japan and I have many foreign friends in Japan. 
The difference is that immigration to Japan - and illegal inmigration - is very difficoult. For the first, a set of prerequisites are needed and for the latter, it is very difficoult to find a job were papers are not required and you also live in constant fear of being deported. And contrary to most European countries or America, you can't open a bank account, have a cellphone, drive a car and also it is extremely difficoult to find an apartment.

I'm for immigration, but as soon as the foreigner commits a crime he should be deported, and immigrants from countries with common cultural background should be given preference. Of course, if you speak the language you should be given priority as well! 
For example, at this rate, the United States is going to resemble more to Mexico than to the one 20 years ago....it's neither good or bad, but the United States as people know it, wont exist anymore. 

I'm just fed up of the immigrant communities claiming the whole day how badly treated they are and that illegals should be citizens as well, and whatever you do they don't like they just claim the racism and xenophobia mantra...
And I wonder why in some countries have immigration laws when, if you stand your illegal status for a couple of years, you are "rewarded" with legalizations.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

tk780 said:


> The number of illegal immigrants in Germany is estimated at up to a million. That's hardly neglegible.


But it's not like an invasion like in Italy or Spain.


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## iDRAFT (Aug 20, 2008)

Chris Takagi said:


> ^^ One could say most of the US population are illegal immigrants to the lands that onced belonged to First Nations/Native Americans/Indigenous Population of North America. At least current immigrants to the US don't decimate the American population and confine the remaining people to so called "reserves".
> Oh, and having an illegal status in a country does not, under any circumstance, justify being called a "plague". That's just inhumane.
> Cheers


When they suck the money from taxpayers who are supposed to be there, yes they are a plague. I'm sick of my tax money going to Maria and her 12 children who don't speak a word of English and who go around desecrating our flag and disrespecting my country. The racism and ignorance of a large part of the illegal immigrant population is disgusting. I have seen numerous times Mexicans taking down an American flag and raising a Mexican flag..in America or illegals burning the American flag because they are mad they don't have "rights." The country I love is being disrespected by people who are all too eager to **** it over and it's awful.

It is true that the European settlers did some really messed up things to the native americans but your logic suggests that everyone is an illegal immigrant no matter the country because it originally didn't belong to them. The only legal citizens of anyplace would be the dinosaurs based on your logic


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## Phriggin' Ogre (Aug 3, 2003)

Even illegal immigrants pay taxes. Your ass shouldn't be cited as a source. Kinda makes the whole "milking the system" argument sound pretty stupid. Especially considering that many pay for benefits they'll never see.


Call them what you want, but plagues, they are not.


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## iDRAFT (Aug 20, 2008)

Yes, asshole, but my money is going to their welfare checks and medical care you dumb shit.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

People should realise immigrants, legal or illegal add to an economy, hence why govts want them, but are hated by the local media. They basically run the lowest page jobs the natives refuse to do, that keep untold cogs turning, especially on smaller businesses that need to cut costs.

The calls for an amnesty in UK alone is estimated to be worth $5billion, even after the accommodation costs of every illegal (most of whom already are accommodated), plus $1.4 billion extra tax revenue a year. 

It's estimated immigrants will contribute $127 billion to the UK economy by 2012, or 4.7%.

http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/news/798191/Migrants-will-contribute-77-billion-UK-economy-2012/


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## xXFallenXx (Jun 15, 2007)

iDRAFT said:


> Yes, asshole, but my money is going to their welfare checks and medical care you dumb shit.


can illegal immigrants get welfare here?


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## chicagogeorge (Nov 30, 2004)

abbeyroad said:


> I can't see why immigration is a problem


Controlled immigration is generally not a problem. I am an immigrant too! Uncontrolled illegal immigration can be a serious probelm for many cities, regions and countries... So one of two things need to happen. Either deport illegals, or give them some sort of residence status.


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## Chrissib (Feb 9, 2008)

the spliff fairy said:


> People should realise immigrants, legal or illegal add to an economy, hence why govts want them, but are hated by the local media. They basically run the lowest page jobs the natives refuse to do, that keep untold cogs turning, especially on smaller businesses that need to cut costs.
> 
> The calls for an amnesty in UK alone is estimated to be worth $5billion, even after the accommodation costs of every illegal (most of whom already are accommodated), plus $1.4 billion extra tax revenue a year.
> 
> ...


Only 4.7%? The share of migrants in Uk is higher, so they are a loss for the per-capita-calculation.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

the spliff fairy said:


> People should realise immigrants, legal or illegal add to an economy, hence why govts want them, but are hated by the local media. They basically run the lowest page jobs the natives refuse to do, that keep untold cogs turning, especially on smaller businesses that need to cut costs.
> 
> The calls for an amnesty in UK alone is estimated to be worth $5billion, even after the accommodation costs of every illegal (most of whom already are accommodated), plus $1.4 billion extra tax revenue a year.
> 
> ...



In the United States, your argument has been mentioned so many times in the past and I disagree. While ILLEGAL immigrants may contribute little to the economy of its host country it still does not make it right for them to be in their host country illegally. Part of the blame goes to the employers and local and the federal government for not cracking down on these illegals.

Doing jobs locals refuse to do. Documented contract workers can replace these illegals and the government will earn MORE money by way of visa fees, taxes...... Again the problem here lie with the government not having the political will to make it happen, same with the employers hiring illegals.

Hiring documented workers is far a better alternative to the illegals. Having records of people coming in to the United States with working visas may help authorities track down people. With illegals, the country has no record of these people coming in.

Illegals in the United States come in from many countries all over the world and sadly the US government lack the will to tackle this gargantuan problem.

My family and I, together with my relatives are all here LEGALLY, we came here with clean medical records, we paid our visa fees and we came here with education and we waited our turn. My relatives and grandfather came here 40 years ago, my parents over 30 years ago, my siblings and I came here over 20 years ago and I'm proud to say we are all productive and educated taxpaying US Citizens contributing positively to this land we now call home.


Illegals are part of the problem and NOT part of the solution!!!


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

xXFallenXx said:


> can illegal immigrants get welfare here?


There is a recent article in Vegas newspaper regarding hospitals providing care for illegals and it is costing the city millions upon millions of dollars. This is taxpayers money going to these people not paying their share of taxes.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Chrissib said:


> Only 4.7%? The share of migrants in Uk is higher, so they are a loss for the per-capita-calculation.


No, its not a loss. The largest percentages of the economy are controlled by a handful of people - remember in capitalist societies the top 10% control 50% of the wealth, if not more. (The average is the top 2%)


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## iDRAFT (Aug 20, 2008)

jbkayaker12 said:


> In the United States, your argument has been mentioned so many times in the past and I disagree. While ILLEGAL immigrants may contribute little to the economy of its host country it still does not make it right for them to be in their host country illegally. Part of the blame goes to the employers and local and the federal government for not cracking down on these illegals.
> 
> Doing jobs locals refuse to do. Documented contract workers can replace these illegals and the government will earn MORE money by way of visa fees, taxes...... Again the problem here lie with the government not having the political will to make it happen, same with the employers hiring illegals.
> 
> ...


Finally, someone who is not an idiot. Half of you people have no backbone whatsoever...yes let's just let people run around in our country and get free care when they get sick and get a free check from a government that they are openly defying.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

iDRAFT said:


> I love when people try to defend illegal immigrants. They milk the system for all its worth(especially in the US) and then bitch and moan when the system screws them over and deports them. Illegal immigrants are a plague to all countries.



A few points, feel free to insult me afterwards if it makes you feel good . I'm sure you'd never have the balls to say it up front anyways so feel free to use your anonymous status.

- Take away "illegal" immigrants from the US, and the whole economy crumbles (moreso probably than now).

In response to what jbkayaker12 said, The US government only lets in "skilled" people. However, a large part of the economy is still based on "unskilled" labour. Meaning your solution is not one. In this perspective, either migration laws stay the same and "illegals" will come to do these jobs, either the laws are more relaxed and the same people will come, but legally.

- Most public services are unavailable to them (and a hospital taking sick people is not a luxury... it is a basic human right you fool). Yet they also pay consumption taxes. They also contribute to the American economy by consuming what they need (food, cars etc.), and in the end, even lots of the money they send back home benefits to the US, especially when we are talking about mexicans and central Americans, given that the US exports a lot in these countries...

- Why do they come? Part of it is because jobs are offered to them. Who employ them? US citizens. Why do these US citizens employ "illegals" rather than "legals" (Foreigners or citizens)? Because it is easier to exploit them.

You are basically considering that the enemy is the working class, struggling migrant who wants to feed his kids as the enemy and not the employer who made him come because he is easier to exploit. Weird sense of priorities, and little connection to reality. 

- Why has Mexican and central American migration to the US exploded in the 90's? Because of NAFTA. A free trade agreement that fucked up small mexican farmers because they were made to compete with the US agrobusiness, forcing these farmers out of work and on the streets looking for jobs. And with all the employers in the US looking for cheap labour to exploit, some of them just migrated up north, how evil no? :| That's right, everything has a cause and happens in a certain context. You think "illegals" are fucking your country up? Your country fucked up theirs and this is why they are coming.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

OUCH

I just checked the wikipedia page on illegal immigrants to the US and found a very fun passage, I'm sure you will love it iDRAFT my friend 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Taxes_and_social_services

"Illegal workers are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security.[102]

A paper in the peer reviewed Tax Lawyer journal from the American Bar Association asserts that illegal immigrants contribute more in taxes than they cost in social services.[103] The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reviewed 29 reports published over 15 years to evaluate the impact of unauthorized immigrants on the budgets of state and local governments, and found that the tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants, but that the amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions.[104]"

link to the journal article -> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584


_Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States' economy. The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services. Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs. Eighty-five percent of eminent economists surveyed have concluded that undocumented immigrants have had a positive (seventy-four percent) or neutral (eleven percent) impact on the U.S. economy._


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## nando02 (Sep 8, 2006)

Tubeman said:


> After a bit of googling I came up with a 300,000 estimate for London, or about 5% of the population


But as you said a large number of immigrants are hide in a student visa!
And also many South Americans could be included in your description about immigrants but they have got an European passport, usually Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, French or German!


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

eklips said:


> A few points, feel free to insult me afterwards if it makes you feel good . I'm sure you'd never have the balls to say it up front anyways so feel free to use your anonymous status.
> 
> - Take away "illegal" immigrants from the US, and the whole economy crumbles (moreso probably than now).
> 
> ...



Again you just missed the point, if many countries all over the world can hire documented workers to do menial jobs then the United States should be able to do it as well.

Your argument saying only skilled workers are allowed in the United States is not part of the solution. Again the blame goes to the United States government. Illegals are illegals.

Regarding health care being provided to illegals. Again, this is a burden for the host country and regardless of how you look at it some of these people are here illegally and it is costing us taxpayers money. Money that should have been provided to American citizens and people who are here LEGALLY. If you want to give away everything then it is your choice but I beg to disagree and Im sure many will feel the same way. Perhaps you should shoulder the burden and pay more TAXES in your country to subsidize these people staying in your country illegally. I highly doubt you will like that.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

eklips said:


> OUCH
> 
> I just checked the wikipedia page on illegal immigrants to the US and found a very fun passage, I'm sure you will love it iDRAFT my friend
> 
> ...



WRONG!!! Illegals get paid under the table. NO FEDERAL TAXES COLLECTED on their wages. Since they are here illegally, they are also getting paid less and exploited by unscrupulous employers and if they earn less it means less spending money or disposable income. Most if not all of these people send their money via remittance centers to their families back home. Not much is left to be spent here in the United States.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

STATE OF EMERGENCY:: Illegal immigrants burden UMC 

Hospital not reimbursed for illegal immigrants' dialysis treatments 

By PAUL HARASIM 
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL 

Marta Berrera, who is not a U.S. citizen, gets dialysis treatment Thursday at University Medical Center.
Tethered to the dialysis machine behind her reclining chair by two tubes attached to a catheter in her chest, Marta Berrera wearily stares at nothing in particular as blood flows out of, and then back into, her body.

Every four or five days, she shows up at University Medical Center's emergency room, her failing kidneys requiring that her waste be filtered and excess fluid be removed through artificial means.

"I am so thankful to this hospital for doing this for someone who is not a citizen," she said Thursday, an interpreter translating her Spanish as she choked back tears. "Without this help, I would die and my four children would be without a mother."

Wrapped up in Berrera's expression of gratitude is a dilemma that confounds the health care professionals at the only publicly supported hospital in Las Vegas.

"Our people are really torn," said Brian Brannman, UMC's chief operating officer. "We want to take care of people who are ill. We're proud that we can save lives. But our employees are also worried about the survival of UMC. They know that the appetite of taxpayers for helping undocumented immigrants is limited."

Since April, UMC has been spending about $2 million per month providing emergency dialysis services to 80 illegal immigrants, Brannman said.

He projects that these services at UMC could run more than $24 million in the current fiscal year.

In each of the five prior years, the hospital provided the same emergency services to half as many illegal immigrants for a little more than $1 million per month.

Brannman said the hospital receives no reimbursement from federal, state or local sources to provide this life-saving treatment for people who have entered the country illegally.

But under federal law, any patient who shows up at an emergency department requesting an examination or treatment for a medical condition must be given an appropriate medical screening to determine whether there is an emergency. If there is, treatment must be provided.

"When we're projecting a budget deficit of $70 million for fiscal year 2010, you can see that $24 million in dialysis treatment that's not reimbursed is an awfully big chunk," Brannman said.

UMC health care professionals say discussion of how to reform the nation's health care system must include how to shore up taxpayer-supported hospitals, strained to the breaking point by following the law to care for those who are breaking it.

Health care costs for illegal immigrants, a hot-button issue in the current debate, vary widely because of the difficulty in obtaining accurate information on illegal immigrants. But all estimates run into the billions of dollars.

UMC staffers contend more efforts also must be made to persuade foreign nationals to head home for care.

And, they say, unless there is meaningful immigration reform, taxpayers can expect to pay more to wait longer for their own emergency services.

"There's no question that these illegals who come for dialysis treatment at emergency rooms back everything up," said Dr. Dale Carrison, UMC's head of emergency services, adding that most require treatment two or three times a week. "And there's also no question that they need help. But this isn't how emergency rooms were meant to be used."

MEDICARE COVERS U.S. CITIZENS

Carrison said the four dialysis chairs on the fifth floor of UMC were designed for hospital patients who suddenly become ill, and not for those in need of chronic care.

U.S. citizens with end stage renal disease automatically qualify for Medicare to cover dialysis costs.

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicare, however.

As a result, patients who have neither insurance nor Medicare to pay for dialysis are almost exclusively illegal immigrants, a distinction that allows hospital officials to estimate costs for their care.

"What they figured out is that if they come to emergency rooms, we'll dialyze them if they're in bad enough shape," Carrison said of illegal immigrants.

Using emergency rooms this way is costly and dangerous, he said, adding that a full screening with lab tests is done each time an individual comes to the emergency room.

"Unless it's a real emergency, we don't do dialysis on them, so their body is in bad shape," Carrison said.

Brannman said it isn't unusual for an illegal immigrant to wait for eight hours for treatment, only to be told their condition isn't bad enough for treatment that day.

"Then they'll come back a day or two later really sick," he said.

Carrison said dialysis patients covered by Medicare have their own doctors who are aware of their conditions, so expensive tests need not be done repeatedly.

According to Brannman, the cost at UMC can run from $11,000 to $18,000 per visit for an emergency dialysis patient.

The high costs reflect these tests and that the patients' health might have worsened to the point that they need more than just dialysis to stabilize their condition.

The June issue of the American Journal of Kidney Diseases reported on a Texas study that found that the cost of dialysis care was 3.7 times greater when done through the emergency room than through the usual doctor-guided treatment program at a dialysis center.

"The federal government kicked the can down the road on the immigration issue and gave the bill to us," Brannman said. "This is a federal policy failure that is driving huge health care costs to our citizens."

The monthly cost for emergency dialysis for illegal immigrants has nearly doubled since April. This can be attributed not only to the loss of jobs, but also to the ending of a long-term contract with an outside dialysis provider to cover about 20 chronic dialysis cases for illegal immigrants at about $2 million a year, Brannman said.

The contract was terminated because of a budget shortfall, and the $2 million was shifted to other services, including upgrading the hospital's neonatal unit.

But it now appears the decision backfired, as the 20 chronic care patients became more expensive emergency care patients.

"We had to make some hard choices, and we didn't think the county should be renewing a contract to help a small number of undocumented, anyway," Brannman said. "We didn't think we should be in the business of making contracts for illegal immigrants. And you also have to remember these undocumented people don't have to just come to UMC for emergency dialysis care. Remember under federal law, any emergency department has to take them."

Attempts Friday to find out what other hospitals in the Las Vegas Valley handle emergency dialysis for illegal immigrants were unsuccessful.

Carrison said he has found illegal immigrants discharged from other hospitals who were told to come to UMC for their emergency dialysis care.

Brannman said a UMC social worker told him that one of the illegal immigrants reported that at another hospital he was threatened with being turned over to immigration authorities if he didn't go to UMC for treatment.

Repeated attempts to get Medicaid payments from the state to pay for emergency dialysis for illegal immigrants have been unsuccessful, Brannman said.

Yet Ben Kieckhefer, a spokesman for the state Department of Health and Human Services, said Friday the state will pay for "true emergencies."

"It appears that it comes down to what the definition of an emergency is," Brannman said. "Our doctors obviously believe that these people would die without dialysis."

GRATEFUL FOR CARE

Brannman said he has also asked for help from Mexican authorities.

Mariano Leuma Gas, the consul for Mexico in Las Vegas, said he has been working with UMC to try to send some illegal immigrants back to their home country for care.

Brannman said Gas has helped UMC on other health care issues, finding funding to send Mexican patients from Las Vegas to Mexican hospitals. But he said they have been unsuccessful in persuading dialysis patients to go home for care.

"You have to remember that I can't make them go back, but families often want them to," Gas said. "The problem is the economy is so bad in Mexico now, too, and there often is a long wait for dialysis. But I think we can work out this problem. We need to talk more."

All three individuals in the UMC dialysis section interviewed Thursday admitted they were without insurance and in the country illegally.

The 34-year-old Barrera, who came to the United States 16 years ago, said she has been receiving dialysis treatment through UMC since December 2007.

Her condition worsened so dramatically recently that she had to spend a costly eight days in the hospital.

Another patient in the dialysis room Thursday, 47-year-old Felipe De Arcos Rodriguez, said he once had to be hospitalized for two months when he waited too long to get dialysis.

The cost of care over that period would be at least in the tens of thousands of dollars, with the final cost dependent on the lifesaving measures that had to be undertaken.

Rodriguez said he has been receiving dialysis for six years and seven months. His arms are full of bumps where tubes were inserted for the procedures and scar tissues formed.

Because he is not an American citizen, he is not eligible for a transplant.

"I've been in a coma four times and UMC saved me," the Mexican immigrant said. "I am very grateful to UMC. It is a great place. I try to pay the hospital $50 a month."

Emergency dialysis patient Ricardo Valladares, who came to the United States from El Salvador, said the fact that UMC gives treatment to non-citizens shows that the hospital has a big heart.

"They are special people," he said.

Berrera prays that UMC will never stop giving dialysis help to everybody.

"My husband is in jail now," she said, stressing that other family members were watching her children while she was in the hospital.

"I need to keep fighting to get better. With God and UMC, I will. And then I will be able to help my children."

Contact reporter Paul Harasim at [email protected] or 702-387-2908.


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## iDRAFT (Aug 20, 2008)

You walked right into it, eklips. You walked right into it.  Since you seem unable to identify the difference between a valid argument and simple trolling I find it to be my obligation my friend, to notify you I was saying those things to get a reaction; a reaction just like yours. I commend the amount of effort you put forth into combating my "view." 



eklips said:


> I'm sure you'd never have the balls to say it up front anyways


You mean like the French?


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## Phriggin' Ogre (Aug 3, 2003)

iDRAFT said:


> Yes, asshole, but my money is going to their welfare checks and medical care you dumb shit.


*Listen you ignorant racist, there never was, and never will be welfare for illegal immigrants. Now before resorting to personal insults, I suggest you learn a thing or two about your own fucking country before you go around angrily ranting about shit that doesn't concern you.*


Again... they put in taxes, they don't see benefits.


Given that you're completely wrong about what you just said, I can only smile at your usage of "dumb shit".


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## Phriggin' Ogre (Aug 3, 2003)

xXFallenXx said:


> can illegal immigrants get welfare here?


NOPE


Don't listen to the ignorant asshole who doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## PsychoBabble (Apr 4, 2008)

iDRAFT said:


> I love when people try to defend illegal immigrants. They milk the system for all its worth(especially in the US) and then bitch and moan when the system screws them over and deports them. Illegal immigrants are a plague to all countries.


No human being is illegal FOOL.

Remember most of these so called illegal's ancestors hunted buffalos and Wholly Mamouths eons before you arrive on this continent.


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## PsychoBabble (Apr 4, 2008)

In times of crisis like the present Republican Financial meltdown, gulllible cowards will find easy prey on the downtrotten.

You should thank an illegal immigrant that picked up after you and kept food on your table subsidizing your bloated lifestyles you thankless lazy bums.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

Phriggin' Ogre said:


> Again... they put in taxes, they don't see benefits.


The only taxes they pay are sales taxes on goods they purchase whether for consumption or for their own personal use. 

Regarding Federal taxes, they do not pay a single penny on Federal taxes. They don't pay Federal taxes because they are not documented and not getting paid the legal way. They are getting paid under the table.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

PsychoBabble said:


> In times of crisis like the present Republican Financial meltdown, gulllible cowards will find easy prey on the downtrotten.
> 
> You should thank an illegal immigrant that picked up after you and kept food on your table subsidizing your bloated lifestyles you thankless lazy bums.



They came in illegally so try not to defend the lawbreakers. As much as you want to defend their illegal existence in their host country, the bottom line is they are breaking the law. The problem with illegal immigration has been going on for far too long now and not just a recent event.


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## Iskandar (Oct 5, 2008)

It doesn't matter if they pay taxes or not, the fact is that they are illegal. It's the principal.

Murderers deserve to be put in prison just like illegal immigrants deserve to the deported. They have not received authority by the government to work in the country, so when they do work and pay taxes and get benefits they are making a mockery of the state, the government and the people who are citizens of that country who make the laws.

Even if they do contribute to the same degree that citizens do (which I doubt they do), it is the principal. It's like refusing to go to court even if you know you are wrongly accused of something. If you don't turn up the the hearing then you are making a mockery of the system and insulting every single voter, member of parliament, lawmaker that put the system into practice.


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## Phriggin' Ogre (Aug 3, 2003)

jbkayaker12 said:


> The only taxes they pay are sales taxes on goods they purchase whether for consumption or for their own personal use.
> 
> Regarding Federal taxes, they do not pay a single penny on Federal taxes. They don't pay Federal taxes because they are not documented and not getting paid the legal way. They are getting paid under the table.



I love how you have no idea what you're talking about. Makes it easier to prove you wrong.




http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm


btw, I'm not supporting illegal immigration, I just think its sad how the opposition comes up with some blatantly untrue "facts"!


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

Phriggin' Ogre said:


> I love how you have no idea what you're talking about. Makes it easier to prove you wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is a good read for you! Pay attention closely on how these illegals are able to work in the United States and pay their taxes. 

First they break the law by being here illegally and then next, theft and fraudulent activity to gain employment "legally". Just in case you don't know, Social Security Cards are issued only to legal immigrants and citizens of this country, for someone to obtain a green card, a person must be in the United States LEGALLY whether through work visas or family petition.

On the other hand and sadly, the government through the IRS issued Tax Id Cards for people(illegals) who do not have Social Security Numbers so they may be able to pay taxes.:bash: This will only embolden illegals to come here even more knowing they will be able to obtain Tax Id cards and thinking it will legitimize their stay.

Two wrongs do not make it right!!!! 

---


Paying Taxes, and Fearing Deportation 

Kevin Moloney for The New York Times

Investigators in Weld County, Colo., seized confidential tax returns from the business Amalia Cerrillo runs out of her home, looking for people with fraudulent Social Security numbers. 


GREELEY, Colo. — For the past decade, thousands of Hispanic men and women who settled here went to Amalia’s Translation and Tax Services to pay their annual income taxes. 

“They are committing felonies through identify theft,” District Attorney Ken Buck said. 

Whether these people were in the United States legally mattered little to Amalia Cerrillo, who runs the business out of her home in this northern Colorado farming town. The Internal Revenue Service, Ms. Cerrillo knew, requires everyone, regardless of immigration status, to pay taxes on income earned in this country.

“My clients wanted to do what any other American does,” Ms. Cerrillo said. “And they wanted to show that they paid their taxes if there is ever a chance for amnesty or a green card.” 

That all changed Oct. 17, when investigators with the Weld County Sheriff’s Office, armed with a search warrant, seized thousands of confidential tax returns from Ms. Cerrillo’s business. They told her they were looking for people with fraudulent Social Security numbers, commonly used by illegal immigrants to get work. 

The seizure of the tax returns was the first step in a broad, continuing investigation, called Operation Number Games by local law enforcement officials. Sheriff John Cooke said his investigators had identified about 1,300 illegal immigrants who had filed tax returns bearing fake or stolen Social Security numbers. Many will face deportation proceedings. 

Since October, 40 people have been arrested on identity theft or criminal impersonation charges. Sixty-five additional arrest warrants have been issued, and District Attorney Ken Buck said many more would be coming. 

“I don’t care whether they are meth addicts or petty thieves or illegal immigrants,” Mr. Buck said. “What matters most to me is that they are committing felonies through identify theft.” 

The campaign is causing concern at the I.R.S., which says illegal immigrants paid almost $50 billion in taxes from 1996 to 2003, and among immigrants’ rights groups, which call the operation a thinly disguised attempt to root out illegal immigrants. 

“For years, they said immigrants don’t pay taxes and are a burden on our system,” said Julie Gonzales, the political coordinator for the Colorado Immigrant Rights Coalition.

Late last Monday, the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado filed a lawsuit in State District Court here arguing that by seizing and retaining confidential tax information, the Weld County authorities had violated privacy rights of thousands of taxpayers. 

“If the sheriff and the D.A. can comb through thousands of records in a tax preparer’s office on the theory that some of their clients are doing something wrong, then none of our confidential information is safe,” said Mark Silverstein, the legal director for the group.

Mr. Buck said all information from the investigation would be kept confidential.

Both sides agree that the issue has exposed a hole in federal immigration policy. Since 1996, the I.R.S. has distributed about 15 million Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers to enable people without Social Security numbers to pay taxes. Many illegal immigrants also buy fake or stolen Social Security numbers on the black market to show to potential employers. 

While not commenting specifically about the Colorado operation, an I.R.S. spokesman, Frank Keith, said, “We are concerned when information provided by taxpayers to meet their legal tax obligations is used for purposes other than federal tax administration.” 

Sheriff Cooke said the federal policy was tantamount to “the government turning its back on victims of identity theft.” 

If a stolen or false Social Security number is used only to get work, “there is no negative impact on the rightful owner,” said a Social Security Administration spokesman, Mark Hinkle; but it can wreak financial havoc if used to gain access to bank accounts or to obtain credit cards. 

Sheriff Cooke said the Greeley investigation began last August when a Texas man contacted the authorities here and said he had been notified by the Social Security Administration that someone was using his Social Security number in Weld County. 

Investigators traced the number to Servando Trejo, who according to a search warrant told them he was in the United States illegally and had bought the number. Mr. Trejo said he paid income taxes through Ms. Cerrillo’s office, the warrant said. 

Ms. Cerrillo is not facing charges.

Sheriff Cooke blames the I.R.S. “They know the Social Security numbers are stolen,” he said, “and they choose to ignore it.” 

Some illegal immigrants hope that the payment of taxes in compliance with federal laws will benefit them if and when Congress addresses the immigration issue. But Marielena Hincapié, executive director of the National Immigration Law Center in Los Angeles, said the crackdown had put illegal immigrants in a bind: if they pay their taxes, they risk exposure to immigration authorities. 

“It cuts at the bedrock of confidentiality of tax law, whose central tenet is that people come forward and report their income,” Ms. Hincapié said. 

The investigation has had a chilling impact on immigrants in Greeley, advocates say. A man who asked to be identified only as Jose because he is in the country illegally said he had filed taxes with the dream of one day becoming a citizen. 

Jose said that he was arrested late last year for using a false Social Security number he bought in Denver and that he now faces prison and deportation. 

“You try and do the right thing,” Jose said of paying taxes, “and it seems they’re using it as an excuse to take people out of the country.” 

Mr. Buck, though, said the cases stemming from the inquiry are about identity theft, not immigration. District attorneys in the Southwest, he said, have called to ask about his tactics. 

“Am I apologetic for spreading fear amongst people committing felonies?” Mr. Buck said. “No.”


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## Phriggin' Ogre (Aug 3, 2003)

"stolen"? More like "using the number to work, and adding thousands of dollars of tax return to said account".


Anywho, I've never seen someone so pissed off about people paying taxes. :lol: just two minutes ago you were pissed off because supposedly they weren't. XD

Nice try though.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

jbkayaker12 said:


> WRONG!!! Illegals get paid under the table. NO FEDERAL TAXES COLLECTED on their wages. Since they are here illegally, they are also getting paid less and exploited by unscrupulous employers and if they earn less it means less spending money or disposable income. Most if not all of these people send their money via remittance centers to their families back home. Not much is left to be spent here in the United States.


I see that Phriggin' Ogre proved you wrong on the tax issue so no need for me to focus on this. 

Now on the remittances

_*Migrants sent approximately 10% of their household incomes*; these remittances made up a corresponding 50-80% of the household incomes for the recipients. Significant amounts of remittances were sent from 37 U.S. states, but six states were identified as the "traditional sending" states: New York (which led the group with 81% of its immigrants making regular remittances), California, Texas, Florida, Illinois, and New Jersey. The high growth rate of remittances to Mexico (not the total amount) is unlikely to continue_
http://www.uiowa.edu/ifdebook/ebook2/contents/part4-II.shtml

-> If only 10% is sent, it means that 90% is used for local consumption
-> The mexican economy is very interlinked with that of the US meaning that a lot of what is sent back to Mexico actually comes back in the US




> They came in illegally so try not to defend the lawbreakers. As much as you want to defend their illegal existence in their host country, the bottom line is they are breaking the law. The problem with illegal immigration has been going on for far too long now and not just a recent event.


You should better stick with pseudo economic arguments, this one is even worst.

Is law justified in and by itself?
Can a law be defended just because it exists? Without taking into account how it was produced and it's deeper signification?

Following your logic, to take an extreme and obvious example, I guess jews had nothing to do in Germany past 1933 since they were a form of "illegals" as well (to simplify). 

So do you think nazi persecution of jews was justified, just because *it was the law?*. I'm sure you don't. Because the law was unjust, because a law is always a social and historical creation, it is never god's will, and it is thus imperfect and can be the result of bad policy making, prejudice and so on. 

This is true for all kind of laws, including immigration one. 



BTW non of you have responded to my NAFTA argument, shows how shallow some of you can be on the issue....


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