# [EURO2012] Ask Poland & Ukraine



## PLH (Mar 9, 2007)

This thread will be devoted to all possible questions related with Polish and Ukrainian road infrastructure during Euro 2012, especially:


what is the best route to
speed limits and dealing with police
driving regulations and customs
where to eat
motorway toll
road surface

Special note for Western Europeans:

Don't be afraid to ask any questions concerning a stereotypical view of Central/Eastern Europe, cause otherwise you may never be proven wrong.



I would like to remind everyone that this thread is not meant to show Poland superiority over Ukraine - all posts that deliberlately break this rule will be deleted and authors brigged.


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## Klukas (Jun 12, 2007)

Could someone tell me which would be the best (shortest in hours) road route to reach Poznan from Zagreb, Croatia (Euro 2012). If I got it right there is no direct motorway connection to Poznan from Checz/Slovakia. Thank you!


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

Go via either Vienna or Bratislava to Brno, then to Gliwice, then to Wrocław, then Poznań. The new D1/A1 motorway at the CZ/PL border should open before Euro 2012. A significant section of the S5 under construction between Wrocław and Poznań is due to be completed in October 2012 and which I guess will probably be opened temporarily on a limited basis for Euro 2012. The trip should take about 10-11 hours, but there could be extra traffic because of Euro 2012.


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## GROBIN (Feb 27, 2011)

a) PL: When shall the A4 Wrocław-Katowice become a toll motorway
b) UA: How does it currently look to drive from L'viv to Kyiv ?


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

The main route into Ukraine for Euro 2012 fans from western Europe is via M06 from L'viv to Kiev.

According to data found on Google Earth and photos;

* M10 Polish border - L'viv: two-lane, condition unknown
* M06 L'viv - Rivne: mainly two-lane
* M06 Rivne - Zhytomyr: mostly four-lane
* M06 Zhytomyr - Kiev: fully four-lane

The northern route via M07 is probably less attractive because the entire route is two-lane, but I've read it was repaved this year and ought to be in good condition.


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## Luki_SL (Apr 11, 2005)

GROBIN said:


> a) PL: When shall the A4 Wrocław-Katowice become a toll motorway


A4 Wrocław-Gliwice become a toll motrway in summer 2012. This part of A4 had to became a toll motrway in the beginning of the 2012, but there was some delays in construction. Gliwice-Katowice will be free of toll for cars <3,5t


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

I want to ask a question which could sounds stereotypical. I heard, and also my polish friends said it, that in Poland there's high risk of car theft (especially in the eastern part). Is it true? Better to leave the car into a secure parking or you can also leave it along the road?


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## Schweden (Jan 5, 2008)

The thing I noticed about Poland is the "traffic tempo". You always need to stay alert, while in Sweden, you can drive quite relaxed. Suddenly there are overtaking cars driving in the opposite direction right in front of you - they are expecting you to use the shoulder.


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## alserrod (Dec 27, 2007)

I find a very good idea to open a thread for major sport events when they are going to be played in several cities.

I've made some calculations:

For the first phase (three matches on groups), Czech Republic, Spain and Sweeden will not move anywhere (all matches at Wroclaw, Gdansk and Kyiv.

The team that will have to move longer is Germany. First match at Lviv, Second match at Kharkiv, third one at Lviv. More than 2.000 km go and return Lviv.

About second phase (quarter final) obviously it depends if finishing in first or second position...
but considering if first position... Spain should have to move 727 (from Gdansk to Donestk), Czech Rep will move 343 km (Wroclaw to Warsaw) and Sweeden... will remain at Kyiv for one round more, 0 km


The trips to arrive, obviously longer from Lisbon and Dublin.


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## Fuzzy Llama (Jan 24, 2009)

Satyricon84 said:


> I want to ask a question which could sounds stereotypical. I heard, and also my polish friends said it, that in Poland there's high risk of car theft (especially in the eastern part). Is it true? Better to leave the car into a secure parking or you can also leave it along the road?


Car theft in Poland was a big problem in the 90', but it is all in the past now, car theft rates are at more-or-less Western European rates.

Police statistics registered 16098 car thefts in year 2010 for 19 million registered cars. (Detailed statistics in Polish here) You can google the statistics for your own country and compare the risk etween for yourself.


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## uunxx (Aug 22, 2010)

Satyricon84 said:


> I want to ask a question which could sounds stereotypical. I heard, and also my polish friends said it, that in Poland there's high risk of car theft (especially in the eastern part). Is it true? Better to leave the car into a secure parking or you can also leave it along the road?


According to Eurostat you should be more worried staying at home: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/e/e8/Crimes_recorded_by_the_police_-_Theft_of_a_motor_vehicle%2C_2002-2008.PNG
Car theft in Poland is actually quite low, Poles seem to be the biggest believers of false stereotypes about own country. Of course you have to be careful everywhere as there's no guarantee something nasty won't happen to you.
Here are stats about most often stolen car models in Poland:
http://www.statystyka.policja.pl/portal/st/840/62034/Kradzieze_samochodow__2010_rok.html


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## Satyricon84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks for the answers! My car is not in the list 

Are there particular tricks with the intent to stop a driver and hold-up? Like false accidents, false checking controls.... in Italy one of the most common is that a moto hits your side mirror to make you take down the window to settle it again. When you do it, another moto passes to steal your watch.... what about there?


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## andy5 (Nov 21, 2011)

Not a question for here, but I think the England team might be needing some advice on travelling between Kraków and Donetsk and Kyiv. 

I don't know why they wouldn't change arrangements after the draw came out.

I'm wondering if any of the UK's sports presenters will ever pronounce even Kraków correctly; you can imagine how badly they do with Łódź, 3 pronunciation mistakes in 4 letters.

Anyway, this map showing main routes might be interesting, from Wikipedia, though obviously Google Maps might be favourite

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/EUFA_Euro_2012_pluken.png


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## areal51 (Nov 27, 2007)

the best road from (Romania-) Chisinau (Moldova) to Donetk? some ideas? We have/won 4 tickets to the 2nd semifinal on 28th june. :cheers:
EXCEPT TRANSNISTRIA!!!!!! Thx.


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## I-275westcoastfl (Feb 15, 2005)

I really hope I'll be able to ask questions about this(in other words go to Poland this summer )


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## and802 (Jul 14, 2009)

Satyricon84 said:


> Thanks for the answers! My car is not in the list
> 
> Are there particular tricks with the intent to stop a driver and hold-up? Like false accidents, false checking controls.... in Italy one of the most common is that a moto hits your side mirror to make you take down the window to settle it again. When you do it, another moto passes to steal your watch.... what about there?


Poland is not a leader in car thief invention. if you know the tricks which work in your country, most probably you can spot them in Poland as well. 
all in all - as said above Poland is safe. I would say if euro 2012 had been placed in the UK, I would have worried much more - statistics are terrible there


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## alserrod (Dec 27, 2007)

andy5 said:


> Not a question for here, but I think the England team might be needing some advice on travelling between Kraków and Donetsk and Kyiv.
> 
> I don't know why they wouldn't change arrangements after the draw came out.
> 
> ...



I remember that for one football competition, the Spanish organization studied all cities where playing to have a look to possible hotels, stages, etc... before knowing the group they had and the cities to play.
They had booked a hotel in each possible city to play for using it in case that the group was based there.

And also locations for stages near several stadiums... 

And later to decide which hotels they get finnally.


In this case they had very easy. Only four groups and two host countries. It is known where the host countries will play so they knew that only two options were possible (even for Spain and the Netherlands).

They had the good luck to not to move in the first phase.


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## PLH (Mar 9, 2007)

Schweden said:


> The thing I noticed about Poland is the "traffic tempo". You always need to stay alert, while in Sweden, you can drive quite relaxed. Suddenly there are overtaking cars driving in the opposite direction right in front of you - they are expecting you to use the shoulder.


Yeah, this is an important issue.


I've noriced a general improvement through a few last years and such manovers are becoming rare and rare. 

However, you must always be prepared that someone will not finish overtaking soon enough or deliberately make you move to the hard shoulder. Feel free to flash your light as this is not seen as generally acceptable.

What is more, you must not use the hard shoulder in any case, especially in order to let people behind you pass.

Even a dashed line *does not *implicate additional lane:









--------------

Always keep an eye on these behind you - never brake very rapidly because of speed limits (but of course do it eventually).

General rule - truck drivers, white van men and company car drivers are the ones to cause most trouble (in this order).


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## PLH (Mar 9, 2007)

Now a few words about speed limits.

Yo'll se this rather impresive sign at the border:









The difference between 90 and 100 on normal roads and 100 ans 120 on expressways is as follows:

Higher speed limit applies when the road has at least two lanes in one direction *and* opposite directions are divided by a barrier or grass.

--------------

Unlike in Western Europe, *speed limits are cancelled by every road crossing* or end-of-the-limit signs.

--------------

This sign does not implicate build up area and 50 km/h speed limit:










This one does:









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*Lights are mandatory 24/7*. Day lights possible


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## bogdymol (Feb 4, 2010)

PLH said:


> This sign does not implicate build up area and 50 km/h speed limit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for this information. In my country it's different: you can see only #1 or a combination of #1 + #2, but both variants say that the speed limit is 50 km/h.


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## Rombi (Apr 17, 2010)

1. A1 from czech border to Katowice should be ready in March 2012.
2. A4 is in traffic all the way from german border to Kraków.
3. At the moment there is no S-class road between Wrocław and Poznań while S1 between CZ border exist.


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

KHS said:


> I was wondering will the A1 from CZ border to Katowice be finished by Euro?


Yes, the official date is March 2012, which might be possible if the mild winter weather continues. May 2012 should be easy given the current state.



KHS said:


> As I understand A4 is in traffic all the way from Katowice to Wroclaw? And what is the condition of S5 from Wroclaw to Poznań? Is it like S1 from CZ border to Bielsko-Biała?


I would expect bad traffic conditions on all roads during Euro 2012. There really is no S5 between Wroclaw and Poznań yet, though there is one section that they may open on a temporary basis for Euro 2012.



KHS said:


> What will be the toll system situation during the Euro? I'm asking this because they were talking about introducing vignettes last time I was in Poland?


I'm not aware of any special toll provisions for Euro 2012. No Polish vignettes -- just bloody toll booths. hno:


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## zsmg (Aug 25, 2011)

Will Poland be closing down it's borders during the event? I know Germany and Portugal did something similar when they hosted the World Cup/Euro (not sure about Austria)

And the most important question of them all: who's going to win it?


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

Poland


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

zsmg said:


> And the most important question of them all: who's going to win it?


We, the enthusiasts of Polish motorways, are the winners. Think of all the road building which is going on now just because of Euro 2012.


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## GROBIN (Feb 27, 2011)

^^

True !  & especially Polish people that will use these motorways &/or see those motorways get some traffic out of congested small roads.

*P.S.: It'd be nice if some of our Ukrainian roadgeeks wrote something here ! We don't hear you a lot guys ! **Як справи ? Як життя ? Is anybody theeeeeere ?*:dunno:


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

GROBIN said:


> It'd be nice if some of our Ukrainian roadgeeks wrote something here ! We don't hear you a lot guys !


I agree. It would be nice. I think there are two possible reasons. One is that it's more fun to be a Polish road geek than a Ukrainian road geek because there is a lot more cool road construction going on in Poland. The other is that English is more pervasive in Poland than Ukraine (though I have some Ukrainian friends who speak English very well).


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## Maxi_Moscow (Mar 23, 2010)

Will be driving from Moscow to Warzaw to support Russian Team. Planning on making a detour to Vilnius, LT.


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## Bzyq_74 (Oct 7, 2007)

ChrisZwolle said:


> Well, If I read the stories about smuggling the main concern of the Polish customs are the cross-border trains.


As long as fuel, cigarettes and alcohol will be cheaper in Ukraine, do not shorten the waiting time at the border, that is, in my opinion never.


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## XAN_ (Jan 13, 2011)

Triple C said:


> Anyone shares a highway/rail map of Poland&Ukraine?


Seems, there is some nice PL highway maps in the topic. So have some other maps:

Road UA - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gvethXaaw...s1600-h/Map_Ukraine_Roads_Euro-2012_Karta.gif
(But OSM is more useful, IMHO - http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.58&lon=31.41&zoom=7&layers=M)

Rail UA - http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/ukraine/ukraine.gif

Rail PL - http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/poland/poland.gif


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## Maxi_Moscow (Mar 23, 2010)

Thank you for the links.


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## ChrisMuenchen (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi. I would like to attend Lwiw. It is difficult to find some english or german informations concerning the current state of the M06 between the Hungarian Border and Lwiw. Has anyone driven in the last few months and could give some new informations?! Thank you!


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## GROBIN (Feb 27, 2011)

^^

First of all: are you driving from Munich (as your nickname suggests) ? Or from elsewhere ?


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## Marbur66 (Mar 1, 2009)

GROBIN said:


> ^^
> 
> First of all: are you driving from Munich (as your nickname suggests) ? Or from elsewhere ?


Doubtful since he's asking how the roads are between Hungary and Lviv. My guess is he's flying to Hungary and will drive from there.....


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## ChrisMuenchen (Jan 4, 2012)

Hi,

yes, I'm from munich and I will go by car. Flights are too exepensive and I enjoy to use the car . I heard that the M06 should be one of the best roads in the Ukraine but I don't know how to define "best". My intention is to use either the border crossing Zahoni or Berehove!


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## Luki_SL (Apr 11, 2005)

^^Are you sure to go M06?? I think the best way is to go M11 from Korczowa to Lviv. That road has new pavement all way long I don`t remember if M06 from Hungary border to Lviv is renovated.


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## Rombi (Apr 17, 2010)

I think it's obvious that ChrisMuenchen tooks way through Austria and Hungary from Munich to reach Lviv. Section from Cracow to border is terrible in terms huge number of lorries. I would choose Hungary.


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## ChrisMuenchen (Jan 4, 2012)

I heard about the renovation of the M11, but, as Rombi noticed, from Munich in my opinion, it is better to travel via Austria and Hungary. And, as i said, its very difficult to get some actual information about the M06


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## Rohatynets (Jul 16, 2008)

ChrisMuenchen said:


> Hi. I would like to attend Lwiw. It is difficult to find some english or german informations concerning the current state of the M06 between the Hungarian Border and Lwiw. Has anyone driven in the last few months and could give some new informations?! Thank you!


I can't be sure about current state on all length, but M06 (conventionally known as Kyiv-Chop motorway) is a key highway project for EURO 2012 and is scheduled to be completed be the championship. Thus I would recommend taking it as the best quality option. Moreover, I was taking part of M06 between Lviv and Chop when going skiing 3 years ago, and it was in perfect shape already back then. If I am not mistaken, main construction work now is being done on Lviv-Kyiv part, while Chop-Lviv segment has been ready for couple of years.


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## orland (May 6, 2008)

Lviv-Chop has been made about five years ago and already have some traces of repairs. It's mostly 1+1 with only some stretches 1+2 in Carpathian Mountains and 2+2 in Lviv Oblast. Here are some vids

Carpathian Mountains





Lviv Oblast' (till 5:14) from Solonka to Rudniki


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## KHS (Mar 13, 2007)

What is (will be in June) the better route from Brno to Katowice?

Olomouc, Cieszyn, S1, Bielsko-Biała or Olomouc, Ostrava, A1 + A4?

What is the status of A1 from CZ border to A4?

How much is the toll for A1+A4 from CZ border to Katowice and for A4 from Katowice to Wrocław?

:cheers:


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

KHS said:


> What is (will be in June) the better route from Brno to Katowice?
> 
> Olomouc, Ostrava, A1 + A4?


Yes, exactly.



KHS said:


> What is the status of A1 from CZ border to A4?


It should open in May.



KHS said:


> How much is the toll for A1+A4 from CZ border to Katowice and for A4 from Katowice to Wrocław?


No toll for these sections [but see *Bzyq_74*'s post below regarding A4].


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## Bzyq_74 (Oct 7, 2007)

mcarling said:


> No toll for these sections.


but from 1st June is toll A4 section: Gliwice - Wrocław (about 30 PLN).


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## KHS (Mar 13, 2007)

Thank you :cheers:


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

And better route from Brno to Katowice is D1 -> A1 -> A4.


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

MajKeR_ said:


> And better route from Brno to Katowice is D1 -> A1 -> A4.


No, the D1 has not been completed yet. The best route is to take the 46 and the 35 past Olomouc.


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

I meant that it will be better if KHS choose Polish A1 and A4, than S1 and DK1 - lack of some stretches of Czech D1 isn't very important, because you can drive by quite comfortable R35 and R46.


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## PLH (Mar 9, 2007)

From today Street View is availible in big Polish cities


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## Luki_SL (Apr 11, 2005)

^^Street view is available on the main roads in Poland  A1, A2, A4, and other


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

MajKeR_ said:


> I meant that it will be better if KHS choose Polish A1 and A4, than S1 and DK1 - lack of some stretches of Czech D1 isn't very important, because you can drive by quite comfortable R35 and R46.


I agree.


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## RipleyLV (Jun 4, 2008)

PLH said:


> From today Street View is availible in big Polish cities


Finally! News appear in this forum very fast, on RMF.FM radio I heard about it today.


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## tomibaranek (Mar 8, 2009)

Corruption at the border. TVN24news reveals: "Who will pay cross the border faster "

More (only polish) 
http://rzeszow.gazeta.pl/rzeszow/1,...anicy__TVN24_ujawnia___Kto_da__pojedzie_.html

Edit:
http://www.tvn24.pl/12690,1739489,0...bandyte--pod-prad--po-chodniku,wiadomosc.html


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## Superkot634 (Apr 9, 2007)

Condition of national roads in Poland. Breakdown by region.

Green - good surface.
Yellow - average surface.
Red - bad surface.


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## arnau_Vic (May 8, 2011)

very interesting


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## Luki_SL (Apr 11, 2005)

The best surface is in the Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

According to news in Polish media, A1 from Czech border to Świerklany won't be ready for EURO2012. Best options to cope without this stretch:

1. From Olomouc go by *35*, in Lipnik nad Becvou it become D1, at D1/48 interchange turn *D1*, keep it till the end, at last interchange direct *Chałupki (PL)*, after CZ/PL border keep *78* to Wodzisław Śląski, at first roundabout you'll see in this town turn *932* Świerklany and look for signs direct to A1.










2. From Olomouc go by *35*, in Lipnik nad Becvou it become D1, at D1/48 interchange turn *48*, keep it to CZ/PL border, than keep *S1* to S1/81 interchange in Harbutowice, turn 81 and keep it to Żory, crossing with northern bypass of town - *935*, turn 935 and wait for interchange with A1.


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## Luki_SL (Apr 11, 2005)

^^There is road works on national road no 1 in Tychy and Pszczyna. On I/48 near Frydek Mistek, there is diversion because of construction works at new section of R48 expressway. I think better to go with option no 1


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

A bloody shame nearly no project is finished in time for Euro 2012. Most projects only need half a year additional construction time. I know these projects are not solely built for Euro 2012, but if you're constructing it anyway, you may as well finish it in time for a major event like that


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## Blaskovitz (May 30, 2009)

Luki_SL said:


> ^^There is road works on national road no 1 in Tychy and Pszczyna. On I/48 near Frydek Mistek, there is diversion because of construction works at new section of R48 expressway. I think better to go with option no 1




DK1 in Tychy and Pszczyna is a worst choice, mostly 1x1(1 line to Katowice and 1 line to Bielsko are closed) and max 50km/h because they build new non-collision interchanges.




@MajKeR_, @ChrisZwolle : April Fool's Day (Prima Aprilis in Polish)


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

ChrisZwolle said:


> A bloody shame nearly no project is finished in time for Euro 2012.


How many kilometers of motorway and expressway opened in Poland and in Ukraine last year?


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## Beck's (Nov 30, 2009)

ChrisZwolle said:


> A bloody shame nearly no project is finished in time for Euro 2012. Most projects only need half a year additional construction time. I know these projects are not solely built for Euro 2012, but if you're constructing it anyway, you may as well finish it in time for a major event like that


Despite the fact we won't complete most of the roads on the championship, our road infrastructure is in progress and we're constructing the roads for us at all, not only for the event. Besides this probably most of the football fun/tourists would come to Poland by plane so they couldn't feel the lack of parts of highway/motorway.


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## kmieciu (Apr 28, 2009)

mcarling said:


> How many kilometers of motorway and expressway opened in Poland and in Ukraine last year?


Here You have list of highways & motorways, opened in 2011 in Poland.


> Completed investments in 2011
> 
> 19.01.2011 - S8 Warszawa: Konotopa–Prymasa Tysiąclecia, 2x3, 10,4 km
> 21.04.2011 - A1 Rowień - Świerklany, 2x2/3, 6,6 km
> ...


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

ChrisZwolle said:


> A bloody shame nearly no project is finished in time for Euro 2012.


Looking at the list above of motorways and highways opened last year, I cannot agree that "nearly no project is finished in time for Euro 2012." Thanks * kmieciu* for posting the list.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Well, major projects like A1, A2 and A4 were planned to be completed before Euro 2012. That's more kilometers than what opened in all of 2011.


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## Luki_SL (Apr 11, 2005)

^^These plans were unreal at the start. Before april 2007 these plans were for the 2007-2015 year.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Maybe the 5-year planning time for Euro 2012 is not enough, in cases of countries who need to upgrade a substantial amount of their road/airport/rail/tourist/football infrastructure.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

Countries who need more than 5 years to upgrade a substantial amount of their infrastructure should not be awarded with the organization of such an event, it's as simple as that.


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

Guys, who cares about over a dozen kilometers stretch of motorway somewhere near the border? Do you think that this event will be pure disaster, because motorways don't cut the whole territory of Poland? Main things will be completed and it's the most important; if you're affraid that this country is completely wild, don't travel here.


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

Can we be happy that so much new road infrastructure has been built and continues to be built?


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## ja.centy (Aug 14, 2011)

ChrisZwolle said:


> Maybe the 5-year planning time for Euro 2012 is not enough, in cases of countries who need to upgrade a substantial amount of their road/airport/rail/tourist/football infrastructure.


I understand the planning of road development projects in PL goes far beyond 5-year term. The onus would be on the funding available in future. 



g.spinoza said:


> Countries who need more than 5 years to upgrade a substantial amount of their infrastructure should not be awarded with the organization of such an event, it's as simple as that.


That's a fairly narrow-minded view. In Poland the Euro 2012 acted as a trigger event for infrastructure development, which had been suffering from underinvestment for decades. However, the project management side from GDDKiA and legal regulations (in part. focussing on the lowest bid price in public tenders, without taking into account e.g. reputation of the bidder) could've been better, for sure.

And from organisational side of the fence, I believe the Euro cup will be organised in PL on a good level (certainly not worse than in such countries like eg. Italy).


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

ja.centy said:


> That's a fairly narrow-minded view. In Poland the Euro 2012 acted as a trigger event for infrastructure development, which had been suffering from underinvestment for decades. However, the project management side from GDDKiA and legal regulations (in part. focussing on the lowest bid price in public tenders, without taking into account e.g. reputation of the bidder) could've been better, for sure.
> 
> And from organisational side of the fence, I believe the Euro cup will be organised in PL on a good level (certainly not worse than in such countries like eg. Italy).


Let's organize next meeting in Nigeria and let's see if you still think that way.


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## ja.centy (Aug 14, 2011)

^^ I'm not going to speak for Ukraine, but if you wanted to insult Poland and Polish people by saying that, you'd need to try harder next time. Anyway, I won't get down to such level of argumentation.


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

ja.centy said:


> ^^ I'm not going to speak for Ukraine, but if you wanted to insult Poland and Polish people by saying that, you'd need to try harder next time. Anyway, I won't get down to such level of argumentation.


You understood wrong, I never mentioned Poland. You made this association, probably you think that Poland and Nigeria are comparable, not me.

I just said that this competition should be organized by countries that require less than 5 years to build infrastructures. I never said that Poland and Ukraine aren't such countries. If they can build whatever is necessary, then it's good!

Think twice and read better when you accuse someone of insulting.


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## ja.centy (Aug 14, 2011)

^^ Whatever...

This discussion is held in a thread related to Poland & Ukraine, and not a theoretical 3rd party country, so it seems to me that any conclusions or assumptions of the users would refer to PL & UA as well.


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## Janek0 (Apr 4, 2010)

g.spinoza said:


> Let's organize next meeting in Nigeria and let's see if you still think that way.


Euro cup in Nigeria? :nuts:


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## g.spinoza (Jul 21, 2010)

ja.centy said:


> ^^ Whatever...
> 
> This discussion is held in a thread related to Poland & Ukraine, and not a theoretical 3rd party country, so it seems to me that any conclusions or assumptions of the users would refer to PL & UA as well.


Apparently, you're wrong.
I don't care about football, and I don't know any Pole, so I have no reason to insult them.



Janek0 said:


> Euro cup in Nigeria? :nuts:


Yeah, I realized that afterwards


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## Angulo (Nov 4, 2011)

> I just said that this competition should be organized by countries that require less than 5 years to build infrastructures.


Ukraine needs minimum 20 years to build infrastructures...<lol>


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## michael_siberia (Jul 9, 2009)

You should remember that countries hosting Olympic Games or World Championships in football are known 6-7 years earlier, not 5.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

Limiting the organisation of such events as football Euro only to the countries that "have" the infrastructures seems to me bit stupid. The infrastructure is only about the magnitude of such events, it doesnt really hinder or is crucial for the organisation of the event istelf. I would be the same happy with Euro tournament that would happen on stadions for 5000 people as with one happening on stadions for 50 000. I dont think that events like Euro or olympic games should be so resources demanding that it would drain the investment of a country. Most important if there is investment made that should be made in a wise way and should be ready to be usefull many years after the event is long forgotten. Its really stupid to invest heavilly in event connected things and find them uselles afterwards, or of bad quality because of rushing. And I think that the polish plan for infrustructure is something that will serve the country long after the euro, and that the euro was rather good kick for it.

I think that the euro should have been in Poland even if they it did not promise to build all these new highways. It is not something that you have to have in order to organize a football match. Or a huge stadions etc. It is only something that allows to make things bigger and smoother.

The problem here lays with promising more than you can deliver. Or not being able to deliver on time what you have promised. Therefore I find it better not to promise too much. Because that causes further problems. Anyways I wouldnt have heavy head over if someone complains he had to drive on a local road because something was not finished. Because it will be finished in the end and it will serve the country for many years. I would be more concerned about those many years then about the one event Euro. The only thing you will probably remember about Euro is who had won.


and to g.spinoza... I dont know why country like Nigeria could have not organized a world class event like a football championship. It would only have had different proportions and size. But it would have been doable, certainly. And it would have been right in the sense of what sport should do and why we have it and praise it so much. What I would find indeed nonsensical is to require Nigeria to produce event in the style of advanced european country. It would be complete loss of resources.


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## Luki_SL (Apr 11, 2005)

michael_siberia said:


> You should remember that countries hosting Olympic Games or World Championships in football are known 6-7 years earlier, not 5.


You`re right. We should remember that all new roads constuctions didn`t started after april 2007. General Directorate of National Roads and Motorways had to prepair "new" Euro2012 projects.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

The Dutch ANWB motorist/tourist association did a pre-euro 2012 "expedition" to Kiev from the Netherlands.

At first they took the southern route via Dresden and L'viv. Crossing the border took them 30 minutes. The road to L'viv was mediocre at best, but good from L'viv tot Kiev. The Dutch embassy advises this route to Kiev (and Charkov).

They took the M07 back, the northern route to Lublin and Warszawa. Despite stories about bad roads, the M07 was in good condition, but it's nearly entirely two-lane and can be quite boring and does not have much services. Crossing the border back into Poland took 1 hour. The average speed Kiev - Dorohusk was higher than Krakovets - Kiev. 

They were stopped by the police just once; in the Netherlands :lol:

They do advise to buy a proper road map of the Kiev metropolitan area because most GPS's have less than 40% of the roads in Ukraine mapped, usually only the main routes, so finding your hotel or the stadium may prove to be somewhat difficult if you don't have a good map.


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## orland (May 6, 2008)

M06 and M07 should be in good conditions, but connections between them may be in very bad conditions. So if you appeared on one of them, just go straightforward and do not turn on the side:lol: M07 is two-lane, but almost empty (except for stretches near Kiev). But that may not be the case during EURO.


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## ChrisMuenchen (Jan 4, 2012)

Lemberg - Rzeszow - Svidnik - Presov - Banska Bystrica

Hello altogether, in order to avoid "travelling by night through the ukraine" (Lemberg - Berehove by night) (right back to munich after GER-POR) its my intention to use the above mentioned route. Has anyone some experience with that route? exhausting/road conditions/safety etc... I'm looking forward to your answers....


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

ChrisMuenchen said:


> Lemberg - Rzeszow - Svidnik - Presov - Banska Bystrica
> 
> Hello altogether, in order to avoid "travelling by night through the ukraine" (Lemberg - Berehove by night) (right back to munich after GER-POR) its my intention to use the above mentioned route. Has anyone some experience with that route? exhausting/road conditions/safety etc... I'm looking forward to your answers....


Some parts are new, some are old, some are under construction. The new parts of the Slovak D1 are very good.


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## ift3226 (May 11, 2012)

ChrisZwolle said:


> The Dutch ANWB motorist/tourist association did a pre-euro 2012 "expedition" to Kiev from the Netherlands.
> 
> At first they took the southern route via Dresden and L'viv. Crossing the border took them 30 minutes. The road to L'viv was mediocre at best, but good from L'viv tot Kiev. The Dutch embassy advises this route to Kiev (and Charkov).
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update!


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Are there any photos of the temporary Euro 2012 signs?


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## PLH (Mar 9, 2007)




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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Thanks! How frequently are they signposted?


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## PLH (Mar 9, 2007)

'At major [national] road crossings and borders' - that's all I've found.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

Kyjiv? i have never seen that transliteration.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

That's Ukrainian. We usually use the Russian name (Kiev).


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

ChrisZwolle said:


> That's Ukrainian. We usually use the Russian name (Kiev).


and what about Kyiv? i thought that was proper ukrainian transliteration. actually, i have never seen transliteration with all 3 - y, j, i. slavic "j" is usually transliterated as "y".


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

In English, the name of the city is Kiev, but the usual transliteration from Ukrainian is Kyiv. Neither can be said to be wrong.


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## zakrzemarski (Feb 21, 2004)

This is Polish transliteration. In Ukrainian there is "Київ", where the letter of "ї" is transliterated to "ij" what altogether makes "Kyjiv".


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

zakrzemarski said:


> This is Polish transliteration. In Ukrainian there is "Київ", where the letter of "ї" is transliterated to "ij" what altogether makes "Kyjiv".


that finally explains it  thanks 
(but in that case it should be Kyjiw, shouldn't it?  )


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

More EURO signage:


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## Groningen NL (Dec 26, 2010)

look at the second pic, the green sign is unreadable hno:


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## Marbur66 (Mar 1, 2009)

Groningen NL said:


> look at the second pic, the green sign is unreadable hno:


You're right. That's some good thinking..... :lol:


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

Groningen NL said:


> look at the second pic, the green sign is unreadable hno:


It's unreadable for pedestrians walking along the pavement/sidewalk. I can't be sure whether or not it's readable for motorists.


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## Groningen NL (Dec 26, 2010)

mcarling said:


> It's unreadable for pedestrians walking along the pavement/sidewalk. I can't be sure whether or not it's readable for motorists.


You have to drive very slow in order to read the sign. But the signs are temporarily, so it's not that much of a problem.


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

Groningen NL said:


> But the signs are temporarily, so it's not that much of a problem.


Good point  Invite you to the championship here, tourists like you may make me less affraid that it will become complete disaster 

Though everything should be ready for the championship, I don't know what to think about needs of people from Western Europe.


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## PLH (Mar 9, 2007)

People from Western Europe expect this:










so anything better will be wonderful.


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

PLH said:


> People from Western Europe expect this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember seeing soviet vehicles like the one pictured inside Kiev as recently as ten years ago.


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## Groningen NL (Dec 26, 2010)

MajKeR_ said:


> Good point  Invite you to the championship here, tourists like you may make me less affraid that it will become complete disaster
> 
> Though everything should be ready for the championship, I don't know what to think about needs of people from Western Europe.


I think people from Western Europe don't know what to expect when it comes to Poland, it is a unknown country. Everybody who watched the news recently got the picture that Ukraine is an 'evil dictatorship', but when it comes to Poland, we (the Dutch) only think about cheap construction workers


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## Knyaz (Aug 2, 2007)

mcarling said:


> I remember seeing soviet vehicles like the one pictured inside Kiev as recently as ten years ago.


I doubt it.


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## bogdymol (Feb 4, 2010)

mcarling said:


> I remember seeing soviet vehicles like the one pictured inside Kiev as recently as ten years ago.


I remember seeing recently more than one in Romanian towns, so in the EU...


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## MAG (Sep 24, 2004)

Groningen NL said:


> ... when it comes to Poland, it is a unknown country ... cheap construction workers


:cripes:

Oh boy, oh boy! You should get out a bit more. 
The only comment that comes to mind must run along these lines 'Wat de boer niet kent, dat eet hij niet'. 

I could just about put up with your comments and lack of awareness some 25 years ago but today in 2012 your remarks are no longer appropriate, politically correct or in any way justified; I look upon your words with ill-disguised derision and cringe with utter disbelief that there is anyone left in today's Europe holding such views.

I encourage you to go to your local library, pick up a travel guide or two and read up on Central Europe and the people who live there. 



.


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

MAG said:


> :cripes:
> 
> Oh boy, oh boy! You should get out a bit more.
> The only comment that comes to mind must run along these lines 'Wat de boer niet kent, dat eet hij niet'.
> ...


I don't think you understand it. First of all, it was not what he thinks, but what the public in the Western Europe thinks.

Secondly. I can assure you, that the majority of the public in the Western Europe has really little or no clue nor are they interested as to the situation anywhere east of Germany and Austria for many of them is it unknown place or for some it can at best be uncivilizied/poor part of Europe threatening to take their jobs and wages (Hic sunt Leones).

The situation is bit different with the younger generation and more educated people. But anyway most of them dont give a shit about the people that live there (in Eastern Europe).


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## MAG (Sep 24, 2004)

Surel said:


> I don't think you understand it. First of all, it was not what he thinks ...


I respect your opinion but I beg to differ. We all get fed tripe and trash by the media, some of which sticks and shapes our own view of the world. An average person externalises their own views as the general view.




Surel said:


> Secondly. I can assure you, that the majority of the public in the Western Europe has really little or no clue ...


Trust me, I have a pretty good insight into how an average 'Westerner' thinks and I would say that on balance it is a pretty even keel. As times goes on and appreciation of other European nations grows, I would expect all Europeans to treat everyone with respect and without prejudice founded in stereotypes from an era that is long dust upon the wind.

I don't want to drag this discussion any further, suffice it to say, that I was not so much hurt by our friend's comments but more disappointed and disillusioned that such stereotypes still have place in today's world and I felt I had to react. 

I rest my case now and won't be dragged into any further dialogue.

--------------------------

By way of restoring order and bringing the discussion back on topic, here is some practical info for those of you going to Poland by road, courtesy of GDDKiA:



Click on the image and you'll download a useful 3-page PDF document (~4MB) written in English, German, Russian and Polish. 




.


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## Groningen NL (Dec 26, 2010)

MAG said:


> :cripes:
> 
> Oh boy, oh boy! You should get out a bit more.
> The only comment that comes to mind must run along these lines 'Wat de boer niet kent, dat eet hij niet'.
> ...



You misunderstood my comment mate. The majority of people think this way, belief it or not. People dont know anything about Poland, thats why Poland and Ukraine host Euro 2012. 

I have been in Poland several times, so I know what the country has to offer


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

MAG said:


> :cripes:
> 
> Oh boy, oh boy! You should get out a bit more.
> The only comment that comes to mind must run along these lines 'Wat de boer niet kent, dat eet hij niet'.
> ...


Groningen NL is taking your bullshit better then I am. First you deliberately manipulate his statement in his quote, so that it seems that he is a racist, and then you start running your left wing bullshit about how everybody in Europe should be holding hands singing We Are The World. That is very nice, but you are living in a country where a right-wing populist got the most popular vote. Further more, it seems that you are getting your information only from the local library. I travel all over Europe, I do that for a living, and I can tell you that values in life are always different in any country. As for the Ukraine: it is a country where political values are not worth a penny, and where racist hooliganism plays a high role, even to a certain extend, that the British Government has issued a travel warning to all British fans of Asian and African decent visiting the Ukraine. 

Maybe you should get out of the library, and travel a bit more and see for yourself.


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

Road_UK said:


> That is very nice, but you are living in a country where a right-wing populist got the most popular vote.


Oh, guy, when? (or: how long ago?)

And if you finally took this topic: who, if no right-wing populist, shooked all new EU countries and EU-parliament (with its president - Martin Schulz, German) with his xenophobic site? Worth notice for you is that he was one of the best known politicians from your homeland.

Anyway, I'm quite suprised (and glad) that your negative point of view doesn't concern Poland this time.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

MajKeR_ said:


> Oh, guy, when? (or: how long ago?)
> 
> And if you finally took this topic: who, if no right-wing populist, shooked all new EU countries and EU-parliament (with its president - Martin Schulz, German) with his xenophobic site? Worth notice for you is that he was one of the best known politicians from your homeland.
> 
> Anyway, I'm quite suprised (and glad) that your negative point of view doesn't concern Poland this time.


Netherlands, currently. Ever heard of Geert Wilders? He is a right-wing populist in the Netherlands.
Oh, and guess what... I am half Dutch, half English. I only (partly) live in Austria, in a ski-resort
And the Ukraine is having a few problems, in case you missed the news...
Proves you know nothing.


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

Incomprehension machine still works, or somebody is a little bit silly...

I was talking about Geert Wilders. To be honest, I'm not very interested in his previous performances (if you mean them), but something is not ok, if Dutch prime minister shouldn't quit the cooperation with such person just for political interest.

I guess you've meant Jarosław Kaczyński, because there's no another right-wing populist who won some election in Poland during last 20 years.

And I haven't told about Ukraine. I prefer to not criticising it till the end of the event.


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## Road_UK (Jun 20, 2011)

Sorry, you have totally lost me there. I can't even argue with you, I don't know what you are talking about.

In any case, I am not anti Eastern European, some of my best friends are Polish and Czech, and my girlfriend is Russian.
But differences remain between East and West. Some are good, some are bad.


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## and802 (Jul 14, 2009)

Road_UK, Majker,

this is what happens where East meets Eest
although I am Polish I share a lot of thoughts with Road_UK. 

need to travel/live abroad to find it out


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

You said:



Road_UK said:


> That is very nice, but you are living in a country where a right-wing populist got the most popular vote.


And I answered:



MajKeR_ said:


> Oh, guy, when? (or: how long ago?)


Then I asked:



MajKeR_ said:


> And if you finally took this topic: who, if no right-wing populist, shooked all new EU countries and EU-parliament (with its president - Martin Schulz, German) with his xenophobic site? Worth notice for you is that he was one of the best known politicians from your homeland.


Your answer, I guess:



Road_UK said:


> Netherlands, currently. Ever heard of Geert Wilders? He is a right-wing populist in the Netherlands.


I've meant Geert Wilders, quite visibly. So I answered you:


MajKeR_ said:


> I was talking about Geert Wilders. To be honest, I'm not very interested in his previous performances (if you mean them), but something is not ok, if Dutch prime minister shouldn't quit the cooperation with such person just for political interest.


I've seen that you don't understand me very well, so I told about his previous activity, because I was not sure if I didn't understand you as well - I've thought you're talking about it.

Then I asked about Kaczyński - because you didn't answer for my first question.

And I've marked that I don't mean Ukraine in my posts - I've begun because you said something about Polish right-wing populist, it intrigued me.


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## piotr71 (Sep 8, 2009)

Road_UK said:


> (..)even to a certain extend, that the British Government has issued a travel warning to all British fans of Asian and African decent visiting the Ukraine.


As far as I know they mentioned Poland, as well. Also British media is doing a good job, all this Balloteli and Campbell thing really helps. I am just wondering how the Polish government should warn people about an invasion of low minded British hooligans, what steps they should undertake to protect those who are not involved in football at all and will have to experience drunk, noisy and aggressive invaders. 



> Maybe you should get out of the library, and travel a bit more and see for yourself.


I am pretty certain he is quite experienced in travelling.


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## Switek (May 2, 2011)

Don't you all exaggerate a little bit? Everyone here knows










Period.


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## Ismael_D (Aug 16, 2011)

@Road_UK and @MajKeR_

The misunderstanding between both of You started from this sentence:


> ..you are living in a country where a right-wing populist got the most popular vote.


. I assume @Road_UK meant Netherlands and Wilders while You @MajKeR_ thought he was talking about Poland. Kinda funny how both of You argued where there was almost nothing to argue about.

Cheers.


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## KHS (Mar 13, 2007)

What is the travel time from Wroclaw to Poznan? I guess it will be very crowded next sunday...
And how much is the toll fee from Katowice to Wroclaw?


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

KHS said:


> What is the travel time from Wroclaw to Poznan? I guess it will be very crowded next sunday...


Ordinarily, it should take less than three hours. I have no idea how congested it might be next Sunday. The good news is that there are several alternative routes over which the congestion should be distributed.


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## adaba (Mar 21, 2008)

*Katowice - Wrocław*

The price for Katowice-Wrocłąw motorway will be 16,20 zł (about 4 euros), starting tomorrow hno:.
Usual journey time should be about 2 hours.
Regards (and good luck for the Croatian Team !)


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## adaba (Mar 21, 2008)

*Katowice-Wrocław 2 hours*



adaba said:


> The price for Katowice-Wrocłąw motorway will be 16,20 zł (about 4 euros), starting tomorrow hno:.
> Usual journey time should be about 2 hours.
> Regards (and good luck for the Croatian Team !)


I meant 2 hours for Katowice - Wrocław. I'm not sure about the route Wrocław - Poznań.


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

adaba said:


> The price for Katowice-Wrocłąw motorway will be 16,20 zł (about 4 euros), starting tomorrow hno:.


€ 0.025 per kilometer, that may be the cheapest toll motorway in Europe.


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## KHS (Mar 13, 2007)

Thank you! So I can count on 5-6 hours of driving from Katowice to Poznan. And I must say that highway toll is really cheap.

:cheers:


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

KHS said:


> So I can count on 5-6 hours of driving from Katowice to Poznan.


I think that's optimistic. Ordinarily, I would go via Wroclaw. During Euro 2012, I would go in a straighter line using the DK11.


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## adaba (Mar 21, 2008)

*Cheap toll ...*



KHS said:


> Thank you! So I can count on 5-6 hours of driving from Katowice to Poznan. And I must say that highway toll is really cheap.
> 
> :cheers:


Sure, it is cheaper than average, but ...
1. The A 4 has been free until today so for about ten years.
2. It is a state-owned motorway. The government wanted to make you pay about 0,20 zlp (about 0,05 euro) per kilometre but reluctantly they agreed to make it half price  so 0,10zl (0,0025 euro/km). Moreover, it is payable only between Wrocław and Krakow, but the route between Krakow and Katowice is owned by a private company and costs 18 zl for about 65 km. 
From Katowice to Gliwice it is free (three lanes full of local traffic), then it is about 0,1 zlp per kilometre. From Wrocław to the German border it is free again, but between Wrocław and Krzyżowa it isn't a full motorway (no emergency band and speed limit of 110 or 120 km/h). 
3. Other motorways (A1, A2 are privately run, so more expensive)



Otherwise, the speed limit on the Polish motorways is 140 km/h, but no penalties for the excess of speed under 10 km/h, so feel free to drive at 150 km/h, if the traffic conditions are favourable, of course.

Dobro Dosli !!!


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## KHS (Mar 13, 2007)

That makes it more clear 
Dziękuję bardzo

:cheers:


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## Switek (May 2, 2011)

KHS said:


> That makes it more clear
> Dziękuję bardzo
> 
> :cheers:


Osjećati kao kod kuće.

:cheers:


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## ChrisZwolle (May 7, 2006)

Gesundheid.


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## KHS (Mar 13, 2007)

One more question and this is it 
Im looking at this map of Poznan and trying to decide where to park...
Poznan map

These P+R car parks near Poznań Główny train station look ok but I cannot find the data how much would I have to pay for a whole day. Just so I know what to expect.
Anybody from Poznan who knows that?


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## jwojcie (Jun 4, 2009)

KHS said:


> Thank you! So I can count on 5-6 hours of driving from Katowice to Poznan. And I must say that highway toll is really cheap.
> :cheers:


If you go via Wroclaw, don't miss slip road onto A8 ring road... Many people do hno:


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## drowningman666 (Nov 5, 2007)

KHS said:


> One more question and this is it
> Im looking at this map of Poznan and trying to decide where to park...
> Poznan map
> 
> ...


on the website http://www.2012.org.pl/ it is written that all match tickets holders can park their cars in any p+r park lot and can use public transport for free. Also all holders of public transport day tickets are allowd to use'em for free


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## KHS (Mar 13, 2007)

Nice 
I saw that ticket holders can use public transport for free but I did't find anything about car parks...

Thanks


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## Surel (May 5, 2010)

seems it fits here.


Euro2012Highway said:


> Ukraine open *DORINFOCENTER* - site for drivers and those who need help in driving on Ukrainian roads. Made for Euro-2012. Available on English, Russian and Ukrainian.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MajKeR_ (Feb 5, 2009)

_(...)Marsz, marsz Dąbrowski,
Z ziemi włoskiej do Polski.
Za twoim przewodem
Złączym się z narodem!_

EURO2012 is open!


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## JackFrost (Nov 29, 2010)

i dont know where to post this, so sorry in advance: its ridiculous that judging by replay is still not allowed in football. yes i am talking about ua-eng game. traditions are sweet, traditions are good, but it cant be compared when pausing tennis in wimbledon when it starts to rain or playing in white dress only. its just a bad joke. i dont know how many games have been ruined by uefa/fifa because of their stubborness regarding this idiotic regulation

and i am no ukraine fan, but i really feel sorry for them now...


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## Japinta (Jun 17, 2008)

Ukrainian player was offside anyway


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## JackFrost (Nov 29, 2010)

^^even worse


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## I-275westcoastfl (Feb 15, 2005)

To get from Gdansk to Warsawa what is the best route to take? A1 to 10 into the city?


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

I-275westcoastfl said:


> To get from Gdansk to Warsawa what is the best route to take? A1 to 10 into the city?


A1 to 10 to S7 is probably the fastest route, but S7/DK7 is shorter, has no tolls, and might be just about as fast.


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## I-275westcoastfl (Feb 15, 2005)

Thats what I was told about S7/DK7 but I couldn't believe that it would be faster than a motorway. Thanks!


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## mcarling (Nov 1, 2008)

I-275westcoastfl said:


> Thats what I was told about S7/DK7 but I couldn't believe that it would be faster than a motorway. Thanks!


I think you would be lucky to cover the DK10 from the A1 near Torun to the S7 near Plonsk in two hours.


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