# American looking to study German in Europe... Hamburg or Wien?



## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

*Depends if you like sea or mountain. *


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

DiggerD21 said:


> DasWolf: Good choice. And Hamburg is well-connected to Berlin. There are bus connections from Berlin to Hamburg almost every hour. The ride takes about 3 hours and the cheapest available tickets are sold for 9 Euro one-way. If you need to go faster: ICE in 100 minutes. But it is more expensive.
> Anyway, I am sure, you will be busy enough to accomodate yourself and explore Berlin.


Thats a funny thing actually. Berlin-Hamburg are among the few intercity bus connections in Germany. At least if I remember a German article correctly. It is outlawed to offer bus connection where train offers a reasonable connection. Berlin is an exception which originally is coming from its special status before reunification.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

SpatialCadet said:


> "frustrating unadressed political issues"
> There are many things that have not been take care of (systemic racism and nationalism, neo-liberalism/privatization, higher education reform, new social problems like how to deal with workers from the rest of the EU) that I have the impression Germany is much more certain in.


Its nice that you like it here. I am not sure I agree with you on all of that however. You are probably right with nationalism but already with "systemic racism" it depends to which part of Germany you compare Austria with. I think violence against foreigners is also rare (like in most of Germany I guess), but more subtle or verbal forms of racism are present, not broadly however in my opinion, but its a problem to a certain extend. 

Privatization went far, but I have the impression that its not that much greater in extend then in Germany. I may err however. What I am not quite sure is what mean by "neoliberalism" exactly. I mean you are talking about a country where shops are closed on sunday. 

Stuck education reforms are something I see as well. 

I don't see problems with workers from other EU countries. The temporary discrimination of EU citizens from the new member states (except for the more recent Romania and Bulgaria) is going to end in a few months - like in Germany. Maybe you had that in mind? Well luckily its already almost history.


Btw, just because I am curious, how have you got along with Austrian German and Austrian dialects so far? I know that Vienna is probably the place in Austria where dialects are not as present as in the other parts of the country but they are present nonetheless.


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## DasWolf (Jan 25, 2011)

SpatialCadet said:


> I only happend upon your thread by chance, and have to say that due to the extreme similarity of my own experience I feel inclined to reply. Its going to be long:
> 
> I, too, am an America. Like you I had some previous German, actually quite a bit, and liked the concept of free education and the oppurtunity to live somewhere new. So after pondering living places like the Netherlands and Czech Republic. Afterall, I decided that I'd like to study in German.
> 
> ...


I am a tad bit confused, so you say you hate Vienna now like or have a love-hate relationship?

Also I must ask how do you support yourself? Looking to find work?


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Actually his comment sounds like he has adopted a quintessential Viennese life style, which is also very nicely represented in this song of the Viennese band Heinz:

http://www.heinzauswien.com/videos/wirsindimmernoch.mov
(lyrics: http://www.heinzauswien.com/texte/wirsindimmernoch.html)


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## SpatialCadet (Oct 2, 2009)

Slartibartfas said:


> Privatization went far, but I have the impression that its not that much greater in extend then in Germany. I may err however. What I am not quite sure is what mean by "neoliberalism" exactly. I mean you are talking about a country where shops are closed on sunday.


I think Germany is much further in thier privatization. They are going all out and make it no secret. In Austria, also with neo-liberalism, it seems like the issues are unsettled politically but the reforms are progressing anyhow. If you go to one of the two supermarket that are open on Sunday or 'late' in the evening (till 9 PM, instead of 7:30 PM), its a zoo, yet when asked/polled no one wants the stores to be open later.



> I don't see problems with workers from other EU countries. The temporary discrimination of EU citizens from the new member states (except for the more recent Romania and Bulgaria) is going to end in a few months - like in Germany. Maybe you had that in mind? Well luckily its already almost history.


I really think there should be a whole different and much slower EU integration system both for 'western' companies that want to expolit the 'east' and vice-versa with workers. That beside the point, Vienna has a strange underclass of people (also many not from the EU) who work half-legally using loop-holes in the new employment laws. People operate as corperations (using Werkvertrag) which deprives them of the workers rights everyone else has (like working hours, vacation, termination periods, etc., etc.) and undermines the system.



> Btw, just because I am curious, how have you got along with Austrian German and Austrian dialects so far? I know that Vienna is probably the place in Austria where dialects are not as present as in the other parts of the country but they are present nonetheless.


I red im Dialekt, is ka Problem. I have to say I like the phrases which are more common Austrian German, but I am partial to a proper German pronunciation. When learning a new langauge I don't think it makes nearly as big a difference as it would for someone who speaks it.


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## SpatialCadet (Oct 2, 2009)

DasWolf said:


> I am a tad bit confused, so you say you hate Vienna now like or have a love-hate relationship?
> 
> Also I must ask how do you support yourself? Looking to find work?


I very much like it, but I'm trying to be critical. Like everywhere I've lived it really drives me crazy sometimes. I only have love-hate relationships with cities.

Luckly, I am on the dole from my parrents (I am undergrad and they always expected to pay for that--it ends up being much cheaper than in the States, even considering that I would get financial aid there--tuition is €380). Finding work in general is highly based on having connections. Its hard to find work that I am allowed to do on a student visa. All the politicians keep saying they want to change this, yet they never do. It would possible to work undocumented, but I really don't want to take the risk of getting caught (makes it harder to get a residency permit). It is possible to work seasonally (three months) or to do stuff like translations, proof-reading, etc. (anything paid by quantity, not hourly) and to take a job with capped monthly pay of €350. I know English teachers who find their own students, this pays well, isn't really allowed but nobody cares.



Sorry for hijacking the thread to talk about politics, etc. Its hard for me to convey exactly how I feel. The main point is though, I was very baised against Vienna orignially in choosing between these three cities, yet I ended up here, and I am very happy with that in the end.

All three are definately good places to live. Its just as well the situation with school only left me with one option.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

SpatialCadet said:


> I think Germany is much further in thier privatization. They are going all out and make it no secret. In Austria, also with neo-liberalism, it seems like the issues are unsettled politically but the reforms are progressing anyhow. If you go to one of the two supermarket that are open on Sunday or 'late' in the evening (till 9 PM, instead of 7:30 PM), its a zoo, yet when asked/polled no one wants the stores to be open later.


I tried the Billa at Praterstern once. I really don't need to endure that a second time 

Its not such a big crowd using it however, given that only two of them are open in entire Vienna. My own opinion is that I am neutral on this. Actually some exceptions to the rule are not even used by many supermarket chains because they think it does not pay off. For 24 hour stuff you have the gas stations anyway. There you pay premium for getting some small things at awkward hours. Sounds fair to me. 


> I really think there should be a whole different and much slower EU integration system both for 'western' companies that want to expolit the 'east' and vice-versa with workers.


Thats quite incompatible with key concepts of the EU. Integration has been already slowed down by all these exceptions and lets not forget that this whole process of integrating the new member states has no started 2004 but many years before already. Its now already 20 years since the system change had taken place. How much slower would you like to have it? You'll always have these voices which scream "western exploitation" from one side and "being overrun by eastern hordes" by the other. But when you look at reality, the new member states are doing better than just fine, except for those few which are kept back a bit by home made problems. At the same time old member states have profited from it as well. 

Times are changing. Nowadays Slovaks are leaving Bratislava for the adjacent Austrian countryside because its cheaper to liver there in close proximity to the centre of Bratislava. That would have been unimaginable 20 years ago.


> That beside the point, Vienna has a strange underclass of people (also many not from the EU) who work half-legally using loop-holes in the new employment laws. People operate as corperations (using Werkvertrag) which deprives them of the workers rights everyone else has (like working hours, vacation, termination periods, etc., etc.) and undermines the system.


You are talking about Scheinselbstständige, right? Well, first of all, this is not only found among "underclass" and does not necessarily mean that the earning is bad (but it can be of course). I don't have such a great insight in the situation in other member state in this regard, but I'd be surprised if the situation would be entirely different there. 

It undermines the system somewhat, but exploitation of that is fought against and the system is not undermined existentially by it. On the other side Werkverträge can make perfect sense and be in the interest of both sides in various scenarios.

My own opinion on it is somewhat negative towards it though, but due to above reasons I am not totally opposed to it.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Vienna is more conservative, pretty, and liveable - Hamburg more leftfield, dynamic and exciting. But only marginally so (ie Hamburg is still very beautiful and liveable, and Vienna very left wing wing and artsy).


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Even supermarkets are closed on Sundays? What places are usually opened on Sundays of both countries?


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## hypnotoad (Dec 16, 2010)

Book your flight to Dzerzhinsk, it's a city in Northern Djerminy
that looks a lot like the US and A, and has a lot of Universities, 
fast foodz, and nice shows on TV plus a NFL subdivision. Go
for it tiger!


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## DiggerD21 (Apr 22, 2004)

LtBk said:


> Even supermarkets are closed on Sundays? What places are usually opened on Sundays of both countries?


I can't speak for Austria, but in Germany the laws which regulate timeframes in which shops are allowed to open are a matter of each of the 16 german states (Bundesländer).
Usually all supermarkets, shops and services (hairdressers etc.) are closed on sundays. The exceptions are usually bakeries, kiosks, foodstands and restaurants, petrol stations and in some cities shops located in airports and major railway stations.

I really hope that soon all shops can open whenever they want in Germany. I really appreciate that supermarkets in Poland are open also on sundays.


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## DasWolf (Jan 25, 2011)

As far as super markets go I am not too concerned about closing time or bringing my own bags. I can plan accordingly and shop ahead of time.




hypnotoad said:


> Book your flight to Dzerzhinsk, it's a city in Northern Djerminy
> that looks a lot like the US and A, and has a lot of Universities,
> fast foodz, and nice shows on TV plus a NFL subdivision. Go
> for it tiger!


If this was directed to me I will have the say I am trying to escape things like mass fast food, NFL and American attitude in general. I enjoy Fussball(soccer) a lot more than American football and I am a big fan of Hamburger SV and FK Austria Wien. Though if I do end up going, I look forward to trying my first Doner Kebab.:cheers:


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

LtBk said:


> Even supermarkets are closed on Sundays? What places are usually opened on Sundays of both countries?


In Austria:

Restaurants, Cafés, food stands, Museums, cultural offers, most recreational services ... are usually open.

Shops are closed however, exceptions are bakeries which are often open, at least in the morning. Petrol station shops are exempted as well to my knowledge, even though I am never buying there anything.

@ dasWolf
Kebab is a big thing in Vienna as well, next to the traditional sausage stands (unlike Germany its not about Currywurst there, which, if available is more like the exotic part of the menu but its about Käsekrainer, Burenwurst...). Within the last year I've witnessed a surge in asia noodle boots. If you want to go for the most legendary Kebab in town, head to the Naschmarkt btw.


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## hadrett32 (Dec 8, 2010)

I would choose Hamburg over Vienna. It is much more multicultural, vibrant and diverse than Vienna. However, Vienna tends to be more 'beautiful' regarding architecture and historic buildings, because Hamburg was heavily damaged during the WW2 as Berlin and many other German cities were. Nevertheless, Berlin&Hamburg are more modern in view of lifestyle, people, architecture, vibrancy, nightlife etc.

Additionally, Hamburg is one of my favourite European cities, after Berlin, London and Amsterdam, but this is just my opinion:lol:


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## OMH (Aug 21, 2007)

Wien is definitely better! Nicer city, nicer nature, better location (close to EasternEurope and Italy) ...ok the people are not the nicest though


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

^^ What's a "more modern" vibracy or nightlife? You probably mean "more" vibracy or nightlife do you? I can't judge the latter because I've never been to Hamburg.

Vienna is a leading city in electronic music, I guess that can hardly be described as conservative nightlife choice. A pity that I don't really like electronic music


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## hadrett32 (Dec 8, 2010)

^^ The nightlife there is more "cooler" in general. There are nearly no taboos in Berlin and Hamburg (partly), whereas Vienna's club scene is a bit "sterling" and conservative, similiar to Munich (just personal experience BTW)



> Vienna is a leading city in electronic music, I guess that can hardly be described as conservative nightlife choice. A pity that I don't really like electronic music


haha, Berlin is the leading city in Electronic and House music. Never heard of an artist , who is DJ'ing in Vienna.:lol: The Mecca's of Electro Music are Ibiza, Berlin, London, Bucharest (hard ot believe, I know:lol, Detroit and some others.

But Vienna has its advantages , for instance, the "Melange" and the Sacher-Cake.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

hadrett32 said:


> ^^ The nightlife there is more "cooler" in general. There are nearly no taboos in Berlin and Hamburg (partly), whereas Vienna's club scene is a bit "sterling" and conservative, similiar to Munich (just personal experience BTW)


Maybe, I don't know. I don't know what "nearly no taboos" means either but if you say so. 


> haha, Berlin is the leading city in Electronic and House music. Never heard of an artist , who is DJ'ing in Vienna.:lol: The Mecca's of Electro Music are Ibiza, Berlin, London, Bucharest (hard ot believe, I know:lol, Detroit and some others.


I did not say it was "the" leading city but I should have been more careful with the wording and have said that electronic music is big in Vienna. As I am not really an insider of the scene I can't say a lot about it but for example Kruder and Dorfmeister, who have played an influential role in downbeat if I am not mistaken are based in Vienna. 

I had the impression that the Flex is known beyond Vienna and also hosts bigger names. Fluc and Pratersauna for example are also popular places to go to. 

Another music style which is prominent in Vienna is jazz, it is more elitist though. There I'd be ready to accept the label of being more "sterling". 


> But Vienna has its advantages , for instance, the "Melange" and the Sacher-Cake.


If you really reduce Vienna to that you can't really know a lot about the city. Thats what you read on page one of a random tourist guide book. Vienna is a bit more than that.
Btw, I prefer a kleinen Braunen over a Melange any day.


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## SpatialCadet (Oct 2, 2009)

hadrett32 said:


> ^^ The nightlife there is more "cooler" in general. There are nearly no taboos in Berlin and Hamburg (partly), whereas Vienna's club scene is a bit "sterling" and conservative, similiar to Munich (just personal experience BTW)
> 
> 
> haha, Berlin is the leading city in Electronic and House music. Never heard of an artist , who is DJ'ing in Vienna.:lol: The Mecca's of Electro Music are Ibiza, Berlin, London, Bucharest (hard ot believe, I know:lol, Detroit and some others.
> ...


Regarding nightlife, Vienna is pretty taboo-free. I guess 'taboos' are sex, drugs, art, and whatnot? There are only a few straight-up sex clubs (there are more in Berlin), and the drug scene tends to be more on the down-low, but otherwise there are a slew of clubs. 

Electonic music-wise: the huge names do come here every now and then but more often than not its locals or well know artists from Europe; Apparat, Dusty Kid, etc. The electronic scene stays more underground than in Berlin (cliché to brag about that, but its true) so it just depends what you like. 

I've been out with Berliners in Vienna who were impressed by it. I know a few hipster-types who have moved here from Berlin because of the culture and night life. I guess it depends on your definition of cool.

Speaking of taboos, I guess there _was_ a mild uproar when the government funded a series of S&M parties in the basement of a famous art institute. The parties didn't get shut down though. I don't think that anyone would get away with that, even in Berlin.

There certianly is a smaller elitist club-scene and my experience gives me the (prehaps unfair) impression that its made up of mostly Russians. Otherwise the only way in which people here are conservative is that they are generally shy, more reserved and less talkative than elsewhere.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Sex clubs, as in brothels?


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

- edit


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## Skyland (Jul 3, 2005)

hadrett32 said:


> Berlin&Hamburg are more modern in view of , architecture,


I disagree, Vienna is much more interesting in terms of modern architecture than Berlin or Hamburg. At the moment 3 new train stations are built, every year new high rises are added to the skyline, large new residential projects and cool new hotels are under construction. Places like the new Sofitel or the ferry station for Bratislava are really awesome (just to mention two projects realized in 2010).

Whenever I am going to Berlin it seems to me either artificial (Potsdamer Platz, New main station), desperate (City West) or very cheap (e.g. Alexa at Alexander Platz) -- I am talking strictly about modern architecture here. 

Hamburg seems to be quite provincial - not even one serious high rise in a city of 1.7M people...hno:


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

I happen to disagree. I like Berlins modern architecture almost somewhat better than the Viennese one. I am not saying that Vienna does not have some fine examples, but I guess for the reasons you dislike Berlin I like it. Berlin has a friendlier less cold modern architecture. The townhouses are a real sight, I also think the Potsdamer Platz looks great even the more when the neighboring Leipziger Platz should be finished, ever. That new block right next to the station Hackescher Markt is also very nice.

Und der Berliner Hauptbahnhof ist womöglich einer der großartigsten modernen Bahnhofsneubauten in Europa. Da kann definitiv keiner der neuen Bahnhöfe in Wien auch nur annähernd mithalten, besonders wenns um die Repräsentativität geht. Der Wiener Hbf wird wohl eher verhältnismäßig unscheinbar daherkommen, wenn ich auch hoffe, dass er ein toller Bahnhof wird.


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## Tomesh (Mar 10, 2005)

Many opinions about Vienna seem to be somewhat outdated and stereotypical. Over the last ten years a lot has changed IMO and the city has become younger, more vibrant and exciting.


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## FFM 34 (Feb 1, 2011)

Tomesh said:


> Many opinions about Vienna seem to be somewhat outdated and stereotypical. Over the last ten years a lot has changed IMO and the city has become younger, more vibrant and exciting.


^^That's true, but this is happening in many cities


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## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

*Population growth (city limits)

Vienna

2001 1,550,123 
2008 1,678,435 
2010 1,712,903

Hamburg

2001 1,726,363
2008 1,772,100
2010 1.774.224

I suppose there is many job opportunities in Vienna with such attractivity.*


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## DasWolf (Jan 25, 2011)

Tomesh said:


> Many opinions about Vienna seem to be somewhat outdated and stereotypical. Over the last ten years a lot has changed IMO and the city has become younger, more vibrant and exciting.


I seem to hear this a lot.

My German teacher lived in Austria and Vienna for 2.5 years in the 1980's and he said it was for "old people" and was laid back and not too exciting. 

However when I read up on Vienna I hear it is growing and increasingly becoming more young and more exciting with a much better nightlife.

I keep in touch with a few online Austrian penpals from Vienna and they say they laugh whenever they hear people preaching that old stereotype.


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## DiggerD21 (Apr 22, 2004)

Mekky II said:


> *Population growth (city limits)
> 
> Vienna
> 
> ...


I guess Vienna and Hamburg are equally attractive when it comes to job opportunities (but the focus areas are probably different). But I think the relatively rapid population growth is at least partly also due to Vienna being much closer to the new EU member states, attracting lots of people from these countries seeking work. Hamburg is just too far away.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

FFM 34 said:


> ^^That's true, but this is happening in many cities


True but I would not be surprised if it were more the case in Vienna than in some other cities. 

Not every city was in an absolute peripheral and fringe location only 20 years ago and since then has moved into a decently central one, by the change of the political environment. 

Apart from cities of the new member states I would say from the top of my head that only Berlin was effected by that even more. If you look at the growth rates supplied by Mekky you also see that Vienna has a pretty solid growth rate currently.

@dasWolf
I have heard that Vienna of 1980 was almost like a different city from the one of 2010. No Museumsquartier, no Guertel nightlife a much grayer city with much more derelict looking houses, a lot less diverse restaurant scene and a time when wine from the city still was underperforming by default ... to name only a few things.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

To feed the stereotypes a bit. Tonight is Opernball. Its live on air at the Austrian and Bavarian public broadcaster. So yes, balls are not quite cutting edge modernism but I think they are a nice thing and Vienna might be one of the cities which offer the most for people who'd like to go to a ball. If you are a student the university balls, taking place in honorable locations like the Hofburg are affordable, with entrance fees of about 20 €. 










2 PS limousines in front of the entrance.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Post some pics of Ruby, please.:lol:


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Its fascinating, this whole Ruby hype took place amost only in the media. When Lugner invited, or should I say booked, Dita von Teese I actually visited his shopping center once to see the spectacle. But as I have heard a lot fewer people actually cared to do the same for Ruby. The media and photographers were in a total frenzy however. 

So in the end I have to congratulate Lugner as he made a very good choice this years. After all, for those who don't know, these guests which he invites each year only serve one purpose: being relatively cheap advertisement for the brand Lugner and by that I mean of course his shopping center.

One of the few international articles which got it right, but thats maybe because it was written by an actual guest of the ball:
http://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/vermischtes/article12705137/Hoechstens-ein-Skandaelchen.html

Anyway, you've asked for it, you get it 









(www.derstandard.at)


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## DasWolf (Jan 25, 2011)

One thing I have been hearing is Vienna and other parts of Austria are facing over enrollment problems in their Universities. To the people living there or studying there, what do you have to say of this?


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

What do you mean by "enrollment problems"?

There are several fields of studies which are overrun indeed. Some to a considerable extend by German "Numerus Klausus" refugees. In the studies hit hardest by that, restrictions have been implemented. The access to universities is generally free for people having a Matura, Abitur or something equivalent but in these studies there are now entrance tests and only a fix number of people is selected there.

In the others however the free access remains, you may face a tough 1 semester in quite a few however where the universities select a bit with knock out exams. 

The problematic studies are for example medicine or journalism. But the list of studies with entrance exams is not very long. If I were to choose a new study, I would probably have a look at the ÖH page of the specific studies, or get in contact with them and asking how the situation is like. Generally technical studies, especially those with the reputation of being demanding don't face any overrun, sometimes they have to fight rather with the opposite.


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## DasWolf (Jan 25, 2011)

Slartibartfas said:


> What do you mean by "enrollment problems"?
> 
> There are several fields of studies which are overrun indeed. Some to a considerable extend by German "Numerus Klausus" refugees. In the studies hit hardest by that, restrictions have been implemented. The access to universities is generally free for people having a Matura, Abitur or something equivalent but in these studies there are now entrance tests and only a fix number of people is selected there.
> 
> ...


Ah yes thank you.

Sorry I did mean to say that the Universities faced over crowdedness. One person I talked to pitched it to me that the entire country was cutting back on letting students in.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

I had a look at it again. Actually parliament voted new restrictions into force just a few days ago. 

It does not introduce any additional entrance exams but it makes the introduction phase quite a bit harder (I am not quite sure how long that phase is, maybe it also depends on the study? It could be the first semester?). From now on by default you can do exams during this phase only once, if you fail at the first time you are done. (universities are allowed to grant a second chance exam if they choose to beforehand). In studies where to many people start, knock out exams could be the consequence but then, we have them already today. 

This will be the situation until 2014. Then maybe true general limitation might be introduced, who knows. So far however I think Austria still has rather liberal university entrance rules.


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

Skyland said:


> Hamburg seems to be quite provincial - not even one serious high rise in a city of 1.7M people...hno:


From all large German speaking cities for sure Vienna is quite provincial. Hamburg has at least some nice understatement style. Berlin is in a different league it has it's own unique class. Compared to Berlin cities like Vienna are still kind of replaceable. Although Vienna is very urban you feel a very strong "small country feeling". This starts with the weird dialect announcements on board of the buses or trains and stops at the style medias report. In Vienna (and also in Hamburg) there are some things really missing: 
1) A large global festival (like the Oktoberfest or Karneval)
2) Large global acting companies
3) Airport hub
4) A sport team known worldwide (like FC Bayern)


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## Tomesh (Mar 10, 2005)

Isek said:


> From all large German speaking cities for sure Vienna is quite provincial. Hamburg has at least some nice understatement style. Berlin is in a different league it has it's own unique class. Compared to Berlin cities like Vienna are still kind of replaceable. Although Vienna is very urban you feel a very strong "small country feeling". This starts with the weird dialect announcements on board of the buses or trains and stops at the style medias report. In Vienna (and also in Hamburg) there are some things really missing:
> 1) A large global festival (like the Oktoberfest or Karneval)
> 2) Large global acting companies
> 3) Airport hub
> 4) A sport team known worldwide (like FC Bayern)


To be honest I totally disagree, particularly since Berlin is not an allround top city, still extremely poor and a very weak economy. Vienna does have certain "touches" of provinciality, but these are more part of a traditional Wiener "Gemütlichkeit" which actually adds some character, particularly in contrast to very bland cities in Germany in this respect.

1) I'll give you Oktoberfest but calling Karneval a global festival is really pushing it. If these are the standards then you could say that Vienna in itself is the constant top global classical musical festival. This is even quite stereotypical since many believe this is the only type of entertainment Vienna offers 

2) Kind of true, even though Vienna has somewhat become a business hub for the CEE region. Furthermore you have a number of international organisation HQs such as IAEA, OPEC, and branches of UN organisations which definitely compensate.

3)4) are difficult, I dont see sporting teams as that important, and Vienna's airport is nothing special, even though it is/has been a type of regional hub.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Berlin isn't what you call a extremely poor city IMO.


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

pumpikatze said:


> "Cause it must really be MUCH bigger than Munich."


Actually only in terms of population of the municipal Vienna has a larger population than Munich. Vienna's urban area has a slightly lower population. It's metropolitan area is also smaller. 




pumpikatze said:


> There is no VERY STRONG "small country feeling"....maybe a bit of it. Vienna could easily be the capital of a 20-Mio-State.


Even in Europe you will find even more extreme examples of big cities within small countries. Just look at Dublin, Lisbon, Copenhagen or Athens





pumpikatze said:


> The Oktoberfest being a worldwide known festival doesnt mean it is something very special.


You must be joking?!? Of course Oktoberfest is not the taste of everybody. Even in Munich there are at least 30 % of the population that never visit the Oktoberfest. But it is 'special' for sure. It is THE beer fest. It is cosmopolitan. It is famous. It is simply large.


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

Slartibartfas said:


> Which makes wonder why you feel such an urge to belittle Vienna nonetheless. I am not engaging here in a mission of making Vienna grander than it is. I honestly have little reason why I should expose some bloated up ego or weird overemphasized local patriotism. Its just that other people who have looked into this issue more objectively than neither of us two possibly could come to drastically different conclusions than you do, which makes me confident that I am not the one with a biased world view.


But this is one very obvious thing one faces staying in Vienna for a longer time. People of Vienna are very very proud of their city and tend to place Vienna in the center of their life. At least from my time i was working in Vienna it seemed that most peoples view is very limited to Vienna (somehow like to live and die in Vienna). This feeling i do not have in Munich or Hamburg. People are more interchanging. 3 years they work in Stuttgart, than they move to Cologne and after that to Hamburg and so on. Maybe it is this gap producing Austrian mentality "We constantly need to show and proof that we are different from the Germans." 

BTW the percentage of students coming from Austria during my study in Munich was quite high. Still they make up 2 of my best friends - one moved back to Vienna. One reason why they have chosen Munich for studying is that somehow they where somehow more connected to the world. They feared never leaving Vienna in their hole life if not going for some period at least during studying.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Isek said:


> Actually only in terms of population of the municipal Vienna has a larger population than Munich. Vienna's urban area has a slightly lower population. It's metropolitan area is also smaller.


Whom are you telling that? What's the point? Pumpikatze wrote about subjective impressions. 


> Even in Europe you will find even more extreme examples of big cities within small countries. Just look at Dublin, Lisbon, Copenhagen or Athens


Again, whats your point? No one doubts that. 


> You must be joking?!? Of course Oktoberfest is not the taste of everybody. Even in Munich there are at least 30 % of the population that never visit the Oktoberfest. But it is 'special' for sure. It is THE beer fest. It is cosmopolitan. It is famous. It is simply large.


True, it is famous for being large, and I guess I'd belong to the 30% because I would prefer a regular beer garden over the Oktobefest anyday and if it has to be a Bierfest, why not going to a real one, without all those ridiculously dressed tourists? Thats maybe a provincial mind set but then if a beer festival turns from provincial to international, something went terribly wrong. Thats indeed an achievement only Munich managed to succeed in. 
The point is anyway that if you want to go to huge festivals you can do so in Vienna as well. Only if it has to be terribly famous than you run into problems. If quality or choice is of any value to you however you will find out that Vienna is so full of all sorts of festivals all summer round. It is hardly possible to fit a lot more festivals in the agenda then there are already.


PS: Just read in the newspapers today that the Museumsquartier celebrates its 10th anniversary! Wow, incredible that its around aready for a full decade. Even more mind boggling is that it took 3 years to build and a full 18 years to debate and plan. ... Was lange währt wird endlich gut... Sag ich da nur.


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

Slartibartfas said:


> . If quality or choice is of any value to you however you will find out that Vienna is so full of all sorts of festivals all summer round.


If they would just replace










with










:cheers:


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Isek said:


> But this is one very obvious thing one faces staying in Vienna for a longer time. People of Vienna are very very proud of their city and tend to place Vienna in the center of their life. At least from my time i was working in Vienna it seemed that most peoples view is very limited to Vienna (somehow like to live and die in Vienna). This feeling i do not have in Munich or Hamburg. People are more interchanging. 3 years they work in Stuttgart, than they move to Cologne and after that to Hamburg and so on. Maybe it is this gap producing Austrian mentality "We constantly need to show and proof that we are different from the Germans."


I am not sure that was the motivation behind the ranking of Vienna in the studies shown at the global cities page of wikipedia. I am not claiming that Vienna is any more important than these studies claim, but its not such a provincial backwater as you try to make it look like. Thats my sole point I am trying to make here. 

I have worked in other places than Vienna already btw. I actually have to admit that there exist unjustified prejudices against Germans in Austria. The Germans I've met were very nice indeed. I could not see however that Austrians are more provincial than Germans. Maybe we appear to foreigners that way, but for example Austria is less German language focused than Germany. Thats probably also due to Austria being a small country and Germany being a big one. Austrians on average have to think more across national borders even if some also here try there best not to do so. 



> BTW the percentage of students coming from Austria during my study in Munich was quite high. Still they make up 2 of my best friends - one moved back to Vienna. One reason why they have chosen Munich for studying is that somehow they where somehow more connected to the world. They feared never leaving Vienna in their hole life if not going for some period at least during studying.


If I had chosen another city than Vienna for studying, it would have been anything but Munich. Not because I dislike it but because I would have longed for something ehm... a bit more exotic.


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## DiggerD21 (Apr 22, 2004)

Hamburg is also full with people who have never lived elsewhere than in Hamburg and could never imagine living somewhere else. Hamburg is notorious for its local patriotism after all.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Isek said:


> If they would just replace
> 
> ...
> 
> :cheers:


You don't have to drink Ottakringer. But if you do, a lot of restaurants sell "Ottakringer Zwickl rot". I really like that one a lot but you can't buy it in supermarkets. If you are in Vienna you should give it a try. Interestingly the red Zwickl is also one of the beers in Vienna which comes close to the original Viennese Lager and I mean the very original Lager beer, a beer style which was as you may know invented in Vienna (well, in Schwechat but anyway)

If you don't drink Ottakringer, have a go for Schremser. Its one of the more refreshing beers but still has a very nice and elegant taste with high quality hop. Not to forget that you get Budweiser in Vienna as well, Vienna is half Bohemian anyway. 

And if you are longing for Weißbier, Edelweiß is in my opinion a very good one, even if its Austrian not Bavarian.


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

Actually i would call Vienna a vine city (along with Frankfurt or Stuttgart). Beer cities are Munich, Hamburg or Berlin. Staying in Vienna i really enjoyed the low prices on vine in bars and restaurants. 

The first time i was working in Vienna was in 2003. At this time especially food and drinks in restaurants were much much cheaper than in Munich. The last time prices were more or less on one level with the Munich ones. Maybe it is still more easy to find decent but cheap places to eat and drink in Vienna than in Munich. Munich is simply homogeneous rich..


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Isek said:


> Actually i would call Vienna a vine city (along with Frankfurt or Stuttgart). Beer cities are Munich, Hamburg or Berlin. Staying in Vienna i really enjoyed the low prices on vine in bars and restaurants.


Vienna is both in my opinion. But the wine scene might be more lively, especially the fact that Vienna has a real wine producing sector, and not just some alibi wine yards like some others makes it a pretty unique big capital city. I've heard that "Gemischter Satz" is a pretty well reviewed Viennese wine. Its a mix of grapes but not a cuvet as the different grapes used are grown next to each other on the same wine yard. But to be honest I am not into wines so I prefer to stay with beers. 


> The first time i was working in Vienna was in 2003. At this time especially food and drinks in restaurants were much much cheaper than in Munich. The last time prices were more or less on one level with the Munich ones. Maybe it is still more easy to find decent but cheap places to eat and drink in Vienna than in Munich. Munich is simply homogeneous rich..


Vienna has changed a lot in the last 8 years. Maybe Munich is still a tad more expensive but Vienna is not exactly a cheap city anymore. I am most angered by some Irish pubs which have the indecency of having higher prices than pubs in Ireland while those pubs in Ireland give you daiy live music while many pubs here have even if their prices are higher maybe live music once a week. 

Usually a Kruegerl beer costs 3.60€ however. Just 60 km west of Vienna its 1.30 € 

PS: In how far is Berlin a beer city? You mean because of that "tourist beer" (not my invention, thats a lable a Berliner told me) called Berliner Weiße? Or is there something else?


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## pumpikatze (Sep 19, 2009)

Isek said:


> Actually only in terms of population of the municipal Vienna has a larger population than Munich. Vienna's urban area has a slightly lower population. It's metropolitan area is also smaller.
> 
> Even in Europe you will find even more extreme examples of big cities within small countries. Just look at Dublin, Lisbon, Copenhagen or Athens
> large.


Well, I really have to say I find Vienna A LOT more urban and vibrant than Munich, and no big airport or FC Bayern can change that (though I have to admit I would love to see Austrian soccer teams being that succesful).

More extrem examples? I dont know Dublin, but I DO know the other cities. Lisbon in my opinion appears to be much more provincial than Vienna, sorry. It gave me the feeling of a city of max. 1 Mio. inhabitants. And Athens...well, no doubt about Athens being well oversized for a country like Greece.
I just wanted to point out that Vienna isnt an example of being provincial in relation to its size and to the size of the country to which it belongs.

I myself lived close to Hamburg for one year and a half and I have to say I absolutely like it....I almost love it.
BUT more multicultural than Vienna?! More urban? A really impressive thing is the Hafen, true. And some nice blonde girls there ;-) Out of that....no advantages over Vienna, just completely different.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

How is Munich "less urban"?


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

pumpikatze said:


> Well, I really have to say I find Vienna A LOT more urban and vibrant than Munich, and no big airport or FC Bayern can change that (though I have to admit I would love to see Austrian soccer teams being that succesful).
> 
> More extrem examples? I dont know Dublin, but I DO know the other cities.


Dublin is a bit like a small Irish version of London. It also has docklands 
No to be serious, I think Dublin is a nice town but its centre is rather compact, its rail based public transport is nascent at best and most of it is more like the typical suburban mesh you find everywhere in Ireland. I've been there only a few days but t seemed to have a lively party scene. That was my first impression at least. The university is also very central which is certainly no downside for the city itself nor for the students. Dublin feels a lot smaller than Vienna however.


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## pumpikatze (Sep 19, 2009)

Maybe I used a wrong term here. Though Munich and Vienna are almost of the same size, Vienna gives me the impression of being much bigger (when you are in the city centre). It is not only about buildings or monuments, it is about the large number of people from different nationalities, the wonderful and sometimes almost strange mixture of beauty and grit....hard to describe, it is only about impressions that give you the feeling of being in a "real" city. 

Munich, btw, is great...no bashing from my side. 
It is just that Vienna isnt outstanding provincial, not even for German-standards. It is simply in one league with other cities of the same size. In some particular points a bit under the average, in some other points far ahead. Thats all.


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

pumpikatze said:


> More extrem examples? I dont know Dublin, but I DO know the other cities. Lisbon in my opinion appears to be much more provincial than Vienna, sorry. It gave me the feeling of a city of max. 1 Mio. inhabitants. And Athens...well, no doubt about Athens being well oversized for a country like Greece.


I was just meaning the relationship size of country vs size of the city (urban area)

Dublin: 1.5 vs. Ireland: 4.8
Copenhagen: 1.8 vs. Denmark: 5.6
Vienna: 2.2 vs. Austria: 8.3
Lisbon: 2.4 vs. Portugal: 10.6
Athens: 4.0 vs. Greece: 11.3


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

pumpikatze said:


> . It is simply in one league with other cities of the same size. In some particular points a bit under the average, in some other points far ahead. Thats all.


No one stated more or less. Provincialism is not a static parameter. Some rate economy higher - some culture less - some political issues higher ect. So in some rankings Vienna is of course behind Munich or Frankfurt. In some different rankings lets say diplomacy Vienna is of course ahead of Munich or Frankfurt. Not rating economy high Berlin should be ahead the other cities.


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## pumpikatze (Sep 19, 2009)

^^
Agreed


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## Isek (Feb 13, 2005)

LtBk said:


> How is Munich "less urban"?


Because 70 % of the Munich population lives suburban. Just look: Vienna has a very dense core where 100 years ago about 2 million people lived. At that time Munich was much much smaller. Today Munich is surrounded by quite large suburbs while still most of the population in Vienna lives in its core - or let's say not farer than 6-8 km away from Stephansplatz.


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## Wunderknabe (Jun 29, 2010)

I think its a simple decision:

You like the mountains? The austrian accent? A short way to Munich or Italy? Your choice is Vienna 

You like the sea? And ports? A short way to a lot of major cities like Berlin/Paris/Kopenhagen/Amsterdam etc.? Your choice is Hamburg


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Isek said:


> No one stated more or less. Provincialism is not a static parameter. Some rate economy higher - some culture less - some political issues higher ect. So in some rankings Vienna is of course behind Munich or Frankfurt. In some different rankings lets say diplomacy Vienna is of course ahead of Munich or Frankfurt. Not rating economy high Berlin should be ahead the other cities.


I had the impression you did. 

The global city lists on wikipedia which are more or less an overall categorization of global importance rank Berlin a lot higher than all the other mentioned. Thats certainly not because of economic aspects but pretty much everything else. 

Vienna is in many studies close or on par with Frankfurt and above Munich. Sure economic aspects won't be the driving force here either. The economic situation changed however dramatically in the last 2 decades in Vienna. From being an utter nowhereland it rose to a regional hub. This might become relative again as other cities in the region like Prague or Krakow are rising as well but as they are rising the whole cake is growing as well, making the shares for everyone bigger.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Isek said:


> Because 70 % of the Munich population lives suburban. Just look: Vienna has a very dense core where 100 years ago about 2 million people lived. At that time Munich was much much smaller. Today Munich is surrounded by quite large suburbs while still most of the population in Vienna lives in its core - or let's say not farer than 6-8 km away from Stephansplatz.


Oh, I thought you guys were talking about density of the two cities.


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