# UNITED KINGDOM | Railways



## hkskyline

*Parts of Britain face delays as train guards strike over safety *
2 June 2005

LONDON (AP) - Train passengers traveling between London and parts of northern England face delays Friday when guards stage a 24-hour strike in a long-running dispute over rail safety. 

About 150 members of the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union will walk out at midnight Thursday in the second of a series of four stoppages scheduled for Fridays on services run by Midland Mainline. 

The union argues that there should be several guards on each train instead of just one, which Midland Mainline says is sufficient. 

"The company is well aware that one guard cannot possibly cover the whole of a multiple unit train because there is no access between units," said general secretary Bob Crow. 

"After last Friday's successful stoppage we hoped that Midland Mainline would remove their heads from the sand and talk, but our calls have once more fallen on deaf ears, and strike action is the only weapon we have left. 

Midland Mainline, which operates services from London to Leicester, Leeds, York and other northern destinations, said the action would force alterations to services, and apologized to passengers for the expected disruptions.


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## spsmiler

*Tunnel collapses on to rail line*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4639671.stm

A tunnel has fallen on to a rail line after 20m of a supermarket car park collapsed in Buckinghamshire.

Two trains were travelling in opposite directions when the Tesco tunnel at Gerrards Cross collapsed. The train drivers reported the damage.

Network Rail said there were no reports of injuries. Minor roads have been closed in the area and services on the Chiltern Line have been suspended.

It is believed that trains may not be able to use the line for three days.

Network Rail has sent engineers to the site where Tesco are building a store.

'Earthquake' sounds

Eyewitness Brett Jackson told BBC News 24: "There is basically total mayhem at the moment.

"The police are trying to get everyone away. It still looks very unsafe. It looks like the rest could collapse any second.

"Apparently one of the trains missed it by minutes.

"I was parking my car when I heard what sounded like a clap of thunder - I thought it was an earthquake.

"I saw the tunnel falling on to the rail track."

He said the tunnel collapse happened at about 1915 BST on Thursday. It is thought that tons of rubble has fallen on to the track from the Tesco construction site.

Urgent investigation

A spokeswoman for Network Rail said: "A train driver reported a partial collapse in the Tesco Tunnel.

"Two trains in the vicinity were immediately stopped. Expert engineers are now at the scene."

She said trains were being terminated at High Wycombe and West Ruislip and a bus service was being operated.

A Tesco spokeswoman said: "We can confirm that a section of rail tunnel at our new Gerrards Cross site has collapsed.

"Thankfully we understand that no one has been hurt but rail services are obviously disrupted, for which we apologise.

"We have launched an urgent investigation with our engineer contractors and will work with the authorities to understand what happened and get rail services back to normal as soon as possible."

The store was in the "very early" stages of construction and was being built above the line.

The Health and Safety Executive will be involved in an investigation and British Transport Police said trains would be disrupted for up to three days.

The line carries services between London and Midlands.


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## spsmiler

more info... (messages from several sources below)

The 320m-long tunnel was being specially constructed to allow the Tesco
store to be built above.

No trains were involved although the collapse was witnessed by the
driver of a train at Gerrards X Stn.

It is estimated that between 500 and 1,500 tonnes of rubble have fallen
onto the track - police say it will take "at least two days" to clear
the line!

------------------------------------
It's the first time anything like this has been attempted, apparently.
Don't be surprised if it's the last!
------------------------------------
This will please many people who did not really *want* a Tesco store
in the area (because there are already a lot of supermarkets in the area and
Tesco would abstract trade from the established town centre). But its not so
good for railway passengers - and it might result in future similar projects
being cancelled, which will result in a financial loss for Network rail.
-----------------------------------------------
The railway line is in a deep cutting, and the idea was to create a tunnel where
none previously existed as then the land on top could be used for the new
superstore. (Tesco were so desperate to put a store into this locality and
could not find any other suitable unused land )


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## Arpels

gosh :uh: no pics sps?


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## spsmiler

Arpels said:


> gosh :uh: no pics sps?


sorry, so far only on the BBC website.

This only happened a few hours ago!

Simon


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## spsmiler

this might work - its from the BBC website









btw, since I started this thread the BBC story has been updated, and it will probably be further updated later during the night..

Simon


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## sfgadv02

Wow, the tunnel looks out of shape now.....


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## Bitxofo

Where is that?
Any maps, please??
:?
Thx!


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## nick_taylor

Gerrards Cross is due north-west of London out from London Marylebone. Its a rich commuter town (500 £millionaires) which has been classed as the lease affordable town to move to in the UK if your a first time house buyer. 

The line itself isn't very important, but still busy nonetheless. I think this was the first time that this sort of technology was used not only in the UK, but the world and obviously theres a few flaws with it!


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## Arpels

thanks sps, thanks good ther is no victims!!


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## Frog

http://freespace.virgin.net/guy.gorton/collapse.html pics of the tunnel


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## sfgadv02

Wow, thats pretty bad. Are they still going to build a building on top now??


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## spsmiler

sfgadv02 said:


> Wow, thats pretty bad. Are they still going to build a building on top now??


good question.

Tesco hope so. 

Many local people hope not!

Apparently the local government originally refused planning permission for this store but the national government's planners over-ruled them.

I saw a TV news interview this evening and some local people were saying that they were so happy that the Tesco store has been delayed (and might yet not open) that they were thinking of opening a bottle of Champagne!!!!!

Recent reports suggest that it will take several weeks before the railway line is reopened - apart from clearing up the mess the various officials want to study exactly how and why this happened - both to make sure it does not happen again AND to make sure the rest of the structure is safe. No-one wants another collapse. Many rail travellers are going to suffer extended journey times as buses / coaches are being used to replace the trains.

The overall feeling I get from media reports is that first and foremost there has been a very big sense of relief that no-one was hurt - this was a *very* lucky escape - trains were approaching but a warning was given in time and they were all stopped. 

btw, on Sunday I shall be travelling overseas for the best part of the week but will check up on things next weekend, after I've returned home.

----------------------------
for the record:

I'll be travelling around Germany looking at diesel trams & trains which travel on city streets, this is because as someone who has been heavily involved in promoting clean electric bus systems for where I live (London) and received rebuttal after rebuttal I have realised that maybe I need to look at things from a different angle.

(I see no reason why buses should not be as non-polluting as trams, especially on the busiest urban routes)

After all, there is some logic (even advantages) in using street based diesel powered trams & trains - such as lack of overhead wires, no problems with stray return currents and consequential reduced installation costs.. Especially here in Britain most transport experts seem to see these as "the primary" and most highly desireable features of bus systems - so why not for trams too?

OK diesel fumes may be harmful to human health and with a global shortage the cost of diesel fuel is soaring but judging by the present-day actions of bus operators and transport advocates - even "green groups" - here in Britain that seems to be of little consequence. 

I realise that this tactic is tantamount to playing "devils advocate", but I have nothing to loose. Transport For London insist that a new _bus rapid transit_ scheme which will serve my local town centre should use diesel buses, even though trolleybuses were originally proposed - and government air pollution surveys show that my local town centre suffers from exceptionally high air pollution - caused by diesel engine exhaust fumes. So, if we must have diesel buses then why cant the people of west London have diesel trams on their proposed new tramway? Or, to put it another way, why are the people of west London to be favoured with clean electric transports when we in east London are fobbed off with dirty diesels?

Simon

www.citytransport.info


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## spsmiler

Frog said:


> http://freespace.virgin.net/guy.gorton/collapse.html pics of the tunnel


hey, wow! OK its a 2mb download but the pics are very dramatic!

Thanks for the info Frog

Simon


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## ChrisCharlton

*Railways in UK Society*

I wrote this recently for a project at work and thought it might be interesting - especially for forummers not from the UK.


Passenger rail travel was born in the UK in 1830 with the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester railway. George Stephenson’s famous locomotive ‘The Rocket’ pulled passengers between the two cities at a speed of around 15mph, which at that time was considered highly dangerous by some commentators. Throughout the rest of the 19th Century the development of the railways across the country revolutionised almost every aspect of life, playing a key part in the Industrial Revolution.

Have you ever wondered why the international dateline, used to set clocks and agree the correct time throughout the globe, is in Greenwich in London? The answer is the development of railways in Britain. Before steam trains began whisking passengers between all of our major cities, there was no need to have one agreed time for the country. Between Derby, Leicester and London for example clocks would be several minutes out of sync with each other as clocks were set locally according to sunrise. When you could get a train between two cities the clocks needed to show the same time so that timetables for services could be drawn and relied upon. 

In fact there are lots of things we take for granted that the railways have actually shaped. The growth of towns and cities into their surrounding areas forming leafy suburbs was the result of the previously unknown phenomenon of ‘commuting’. People could now live away from their place of work in the city centre and travel in each day on one of the many new railway lines that were criss-crossing areas around big cities like London, Birmingham and Sheffield. The very shape of the cities as well as the lifestyles of their inhabitants was irreversibly changed by the railway. 

By the early 20th Century these great changes had bedded in with train travel and suburban living commonplace throughout society. Indeed at this point the railways had reached a level of glamour that we can now reflect on through old films and books. Travelling by the great steam trains of those bygone days carried a sense of the romantic and the exciting. To try and compare it to anything today might be to consider transatlantic flights that for some still contain that excitement.

During the two world wars that ravaged Europe the railways became a vital part of the ‘war effort’ helping in the transportation of all sorts of resources and people.

In 1947 the various railway companies were merged to form ‘British Railways’ which was to be a nationally owned industry. The idea was the railways were such an important contributor to the life of the nation that they needed to be controlled and planned centrally.

In the coming decades the age of steam would come to an end, as more modern trains were developed to be cleaner and more efficient. Diesel and electric trains replaced their steamy cousins during a time when something else was gathering pace, the spread of the private motorcar.

Although cars had been available before the Second World War, they were still relatively expensive and few households could afford one. With mass production techniques advanced largely thanks to the war, the 1950’s heralded a new era of mass production and consumption. Previously unimagined quantities and ranges of products were available to consumers fuelling an economic boom. Car ownership grew rapidly and again, life began to change just as it did with the advent of rail. By the end of the 1960’s motorways began to connect our major population centres reducing car journey times and moving the mass appeal of rail firmly onto the newcomer on the road.

British Rail realised that this was happening and decided to cut many unprofitable lines as well as to re-brand its entire service in 1965 with the now familiar double-arrow logo that we still use to label railway tickets and stations. In the UK this symbol now simply means 'national railway' rather that 'British Rail'.










Less people travelling by train meant less investment to keep the service at the previous levels and rail’s gleaming reputation had started to turn sour by the 1970’s and 1980’s. British Rail had become the butt of many jokes; with people much preferring to drive in their favourite car, or for longer journeys preferring the allure of commercial air travel, which was starting to reach a broader public without losing its glamour. 

In the early 1990’s years of decay and underinvestment in the railway were really starting to show and public confidence in the system was at an all time low. The government decided to split up and privatise British Rail to give private enterprise a chance to turn things around. Many highly damaging railway accidents called into question the policy of privatisation and further damaged rail’s already troubled image. This is especially so when we remember the Potters Bar tragedy of 2002. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2002/potters_bar_crash/default.stm

Despite these high profile accidents and the crippling engineering work, which was deemed necessary in their aftermath, something amazing was beginning to happen. Passenger numbers began to increase year on year. For many people the car is becoming less appealing in the current context of traffic congestion and high fuel prices. Business travellers especially can find rail travel more productive as a use of time, with several train operating companies choosing this as a marketing angle. 

With journey times improving, and more new trains being added to the network than at any point in the last thirty years rail is fighting back. The environmental issues dominating the news agenda have become something for us all to think about and rail is keen to show the part it has to play. Rail travel is much more sustainable than road travel and it is likely that government road pricing schemes will provide further reason for people to leave their cars behind and come back to rail.


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## Tubeman

Nice little synopsis there :yes:

I think it is very heartening to hear that last year saw the highest number of UK railway journeys since 1958, BEFORE Dr Beeching decimated the railway network.


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## ChrisCharlton

Agreed!


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## Jam35

Tubeman said:


> Nice little synopsis there :yes:
> 
> I think it is very heartening to hear that last year saw the highest number of UK railway journeys since 1958, BEFORE Dr Beeching decimated the railway network.


Yes. The downside is that railfreight is nowhere near as healthy as in 1958.

As for Dr Beeching, I wonder if he'd have axed as much of the network had he known that the ridership would resurge so much. Certainly with hindsight, some of his decisions seem very foolish.


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## Tubeman

Jam35 said:


> Yes. The downside is that railfreight is nowhere near as healthy as in 1958.
> 
> As for Dr Beeching, I wonder if he'd have axed as much of the network had he known that the ridership would resurge so much. Certainly with hindsight, some of his decisions seem very foolish.


I recall reading in weight transported its comparable, actually

The big difference pre- and post-Beeching is that pre-Beeching most stations had goods yards and virtually everything was transported by rail, but now its all containerised. Consider how much more goods each household consumes now compared to the 1960's.


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## markydeedrop

Thought it was about time we had a British thread. Here's my contribution from Manchester.

Some shots from Piccadilly Station, Manchester






















































Some shots from the East Lancashire Railway, Bury


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## Songoten2554

great photos of the British railway system its an honor because it was the first nation to have a Railway network in history.


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## Manchester Planner

Photos can be found in vast quantity on enthusiasts' sites -

http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/

www.jacksrailwayphotos.fotopic.net/


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## Manchester Planner

At Folkstone Harbour -










Sadly not one of mine!


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## elfabyanos

A selection of vids - 

Some from the Great Western mainline, the first line in the UK to go 125mph, all diesel.





This is theEast Coast Main Line at Balne, the second route to have 125mph trains. In fact some of it is 140mph, but for various reasons nthe electric trains that can do it only go 125mph.





this is at Hensall on the east coast mainline - plenty of 125 mph trains - including 3 different diesel types. We're a stupid country having 4 or 5 different types of high speed diesels, but they're noisy and that's good 





West Coast Mainline, showing off the tilt technology of the Pendolinos at 125mph.





Probably the most powerful steam powered train I've ever seen, powering up one the most notoriously difficult climbs - 1 in 70 for over 10 miles up to Shap summit, it passes pendolino going the other way.





And last, but not least, Eurostar at 186mph in the Kent countryside.





And blasting through the outskirts of Ashford.


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## iampuking

I guess there is a good thing about not having a dedicated HSR network, we get to see trains racing through level crossings and platforms at full speed...


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## Svartmetall

Anyone remember this? It's a vid from 1988!






If it's not showing (as it doesn't allow embedding) the video does still exist: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a_AsS_6klHQ


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## iampuking

"We're sorry, this video is no longer available."


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## funkydory

Songoten2554 said:


> great photos of the British railway system its an honor because it was the first nation to have a Railway network in history.


Markydeep's idea to introduce a British thread was inspired since the architecture of the stations it produced were the skyscrapers of their day, and in so doing along with English churches and later cinemas and theatres provided the design and building templates without which our new creations would have a job to exist.

I think he meant "Railways in Britain" rather than the nationalised company of "British Railways" formed after the Second World War. No matter. SSC is going to run out of paper due to this forum anyway!:lol:

The thread is particularly timely since 2008 is forty years exactly since the last official steam trains ran in Britain(August 8 to be precise) so there is going to be a HUGE amount of retrospective info out there on the internet this year.


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## elfabyanos

^^ to get the architectural ball rolling, here's my local station, recently refurbished and looking absolutely glorious. Built 1840, handles 12 million passengers per year on 8 platforms (although 10 can be housed the trackbed has been replaced by a service road between the 7th and 8th platforms)


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## funkydory

*Brighton Station.*

Thanks for that Elf

i can see i'm not going to be able to answer everyone's post-mostly those places in my own area or international stations I have visited personally.

I presume you know about the local history website for your town www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk has mostly etchings on there from before when cameras got sophisticated!


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## Rennes

The trains in England go pretty fast!


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## Svartmetall

iampuking said:


> "We're sorry, this video is no longer available."


Actually it is, it just doesn't allow embedding, my mistake.

Go here and watch the 1988 commercial for British Rail.

Particularly relevant as it shows the engineering achievements of the network including some of the most famous Victorian era bridges across Britain.


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## Manchester Planner

An excellent collection of recent photographs of the British railway network:

http://www.railtalk.eu/magazine/issue21.pdf

We have a great deal of heritage railways and heritage trains on the main railway lines too (and most of our railway network is "heritage" anyway as it was almost entirely built in the 19th Century!). 

Some previous issues:

http://www.railtalk.eu/magazine/issue19.pdf
http://www.railtalk.eu/magazine/issue20.pdf


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## iampuking

London stations, clockwise from Paddington. I've only taken the ones worth showing. Pictures taken from flickr.

Paddington










St Pancras



















Kings Cross (horrible green building will be gone soon)



















Liverpool Street



















Waterloo










Victoria


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## elfabyanos

Some figures I've found out for the fastest journeys out of some of the London terminii.

London - Ashford 56.5 miles - xx53 service from Charing Cross, 2 stops, 60 minutes, average speed 56.5 mph. Highest average speed for South Eastern Trains is on the same service starting from Tonbridge xx30 Tonbridge - Ashford 26.5 miles - 23 minutes speed 69 mph.

London - Brighton 51 miles - xx36 service from Victoria, 2 stops, 51 minutes, average speed 60 mph. Highest average speed for Southern is on the same service starting from East Croydon xx52. East Croydon - Brighton 40.5 miles - 35 minutes speed 69 mph

London - Southampton 79 miles - 1705 from Waterloo - 2 stops - 72 minutes, average speed 66 mph. Highest average speed for South West Trains is on the xx00 service between Woking and Winchester - 41 miles in 33 minutes, speed 75.5 mph

London - Bath - 107 miles - XX00 3 stops 95 minutes, average speed 67.5 mph (which is shockingly bad for 125 mph trains). Highest average speed same service does the 41.5 mile Reading to Swindon stretch in 29 minutes - average speed 86 mph.
The record speed on this route was set on s non-stop service on the 10th April 1979, when the same type of train did the 94 miles from Padington to Chippenham in 50.5 minutes, average speed 111.5 mph.


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## elfabyanos




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## Manchester Planner

How the heck do they read the numbers when the trains are going so fast?!!

A good mixture of diesels and electric trains there. Shows how in GB even on electrified lines diesels are very common.


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## Songoten2554

very nice pictures wow man London Stations are really beautiful i wonder why isn't the japanese stations look like that only a few i seen are that beauitful?

anyways wow man very beautiful stations you can feel when you walk inside of them the feeling like your in greece or something about European's stations like that really give you a good feeling.


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## Republica

Songoten2554 said:


> very nice pictures wow man London Stations are really beautiful i wonder why isn't the japanese stations look like that only a few i seen are that beauitful?
> 
> anyways wow man very beautiful stations you can feel when you walk inside of them the feeling like your in greece or something about European's stations like that really give you a good feeling.


hehe Greece?

We've got some magnificent stations, lots under funded but hopefully this will change. St Pancras is pretty amazing as it is right now.


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## Dan

The stations are indeed really beautiful. What would make them even more beautiful would be a few true HSR trains coming in and out of them throughout the day...


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## hoosier

sotonsi said:


> Because the politicians don't get many votes in it, they don't see it as a priority. Iraq's not really cost that much (OK, more than the transport budget), however no one seems to want to blame funding students through post-16 education, or shoddy management of money in the NHS, or overpaying MPs, or our subsidy of projects in Spain, Ireland, Greece etc over the years. Why is it always Iraq? If we hadn't gone, the money still wouldn't have been put into transport. And we've cost cut on Iraq in shocking ways - what country sends it's troops into a war zone without proper equipment? To be honest, the Americans would have gone anyway, and we'd still be there, doing the same things - peacekeeping and handing over power to the Iraqi state.


Britain did not have to send troops or any peacekeeping mission to Iraq. That was a choice the government made. Britain didn't send troops to Vietnam did it?

The money spent on Iraq should be singled out because it was an entirely unnecessary affair based on lies, fabrications, and forgeries.

If the political will existed to send troops to die in an unnecessary war and the funding could be found for it, then goddamnit the political will could have been generated to build those 5 HSR lines.

The solution? VOTE LIBERAL DEMOCRAT!!!!


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## sotonsi

hoosier said:


> Britain did not have to send troops or any peacekeeping mission to Iraq. That was a choice the government made. Britain didn't send troops to Vietnam did it?


While we chose to enter the war for the offensive stages, we'd still have had to have gone in anyway. We'd have had the choice to help clean up the American's mess, but there's no way we could have said no, seeing as our armed forces are the best trained at peacekeeping (and generally). See also Afghanistan (perhaps more so, and unluckily we got the problem province).


> The money spent on Iraq should be singled out because it was an entirely unnecessary affair based on lies, fabrications, and forgeries.


but it would have been spent anyway, maybe not all of it on defence - some of it may have built a hospital or school. Definitely not an HSR or other such 'luxury' transport item, or transport at all. There wouldn't have been the reasoning "hey, we're not spending money on a war, lets spent the money we would have spent on that on transport" - get out of you fantasy world and live in the real one! There's tons of other wastes of money out there - on over-filled middle management, on computer systems that won't work, on making sure there's profits for companies that have PPPed, etc


> If the political will existed to send troops to die in an unnecessary war and the funding could be found for it, then goddamnit the political will could have been generated to build those 5 HSR lines.


no it wouldn't: the political will wasn't there to get the government to give money to protect our troops sufficiently - the papers tried to get every solider out there decent body armour, but failed, partially as people like you kept crying on about how we shouldn't spend money on Iraq and partially as Her Majesty's Treasury hates spending money.


> The solution? VOTE LIBERAL DEMOCRAT!!!!


what a group of people who have no ideology I like - a couple of their policies, but not the reasoning behind those policies and I oppose many of their policies on matters I rank higher than the ones where there's more agreement. But then again, they won't get into power anyway, so voting for them wouldn't matter.

The problem you seem to have is that we live in a democracy, and we democratically decided to go to war (and that Government was re-elected after doing that, even though we hadn't found any evidence to suggest that we weren't lied to - it was only it dragging on too long and too many soldiers dying that tipped the balance of opinion). Also that that democracy voted, repeatedly, for a government who's transport policy is basically to hit people with a stick and throw in the occasional carrot if it's really good for business or if it's unavoidable (not that it had any choice, it was that, or people who have the same view, but wear different coloured rosette) - on the basis that they don't really care about transport - they care about 'education, education, education', crime, terrorism and hospitals and so on. Transport is an issue where people feel strongly, but don't consider it important enough.

Unlike you, Average Person isn't going to have a wet dream about 5 HSLs - he might approve, but he'd want to make sure that the NHS and School system is running OK, the country sufficiently policed and defended, that the economy is in good shape and so on first.

Of course, talking about 5 High Speed Lines shows that you don't have a clue - 5 corridors will be covered by 3 lines. What would the point be in a Chiltern HSL if there's already a West Coast one, for instance? You are just a build absolutely everything, absolutely everywhere, infrastructure fetishist, who salivates at the prospect of some new transport link. Not everyone is like you - most people love to feel that children are being well educated, that if they get sick they get decent treatment, that they can feel safe from crime - they don't rank getting from A to B fast highly enough.


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## hoosier

I see no reason why good schools, health systems, and transportation cannot be achieved. You place to much value in the knowledge of the average voter. Wasn't it your former PM Churchill who stated that "The greatest argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"?

Why Britain even maintains such a large military is beyond me. Perhaps it is to support whatever foolhardy war America is waging. I thought the days of the British Empire were over? I guess not. 

An independent, vigorously investigative, and skeptical press is necessary to keep the voter informed, but alas, the mindless tabloid rags of Rupert Murdoch and the expansion of American TV shows have dumbed down the average Brits' intellect. The UK should avoid becoming more like America. My country sucks. I reckon that Labor was re-elected in 2005 because of other issues, and the Iraq War was not one of them. In the U.S. opponents of the Iraq War were equally enraged at the lack of equipment provided for the troops. Meanwhile, politically connected contractors were receiving no-bid contracts and performing sub-standard work without repercussion. It demonstrated the cronyism of the Bush administration and its militaristic, but not pro-military policies. 

Please don't call me uninformed because I erred in a minor semantic matter, not recognizing that the HSR proposal called for THREE lines on five corridors.


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## Svartmetall

^^ The thing is, the WCML and the ECML already have a decent level of service and a decent speed for an "all-stop" train. It's not like there isn't a service in existance already.


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## elfabyanos

All stop train?


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## sotonsi

hoosier said:


> I see no reason why good schools, health systems, and transportation cannot be achieved.


ever heard of a thing called money? there's just not enough of it...


> You place to much value in the knowledge of the average voter. Wasn't it your former PM Churchill who stated that "The greatest argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"?


I'm not - democracy does... You are constantly ignoring the fact that the average voter might want better transport, but they don't vote on that issue


> Why Britain even maintains such a large military is beyond me.


let me see - best training program, lots of peacekeeping experience - we're in demand. If we're not helping the Iraqi or Afghani governments to combat terrorism, then we're helping stop people trafficking, piracy, peacekeeping in areas such as the former Yugoslavia, etc. We're over-stretched and almost need a bigger military to cope with all these requests for our help.


> An independent, vigorously investigative, and skeptical press is necessary to keep the voter informed, but alas, the mindless tabloid rags of Rupert Murdoch and the expansion of American TV shows have dumbed down the average Brits' intellect. The UK should avoid becoming more like America. My country sucks.


This is getting tiring, you are bordering on racism (and I think you can be racist of your own country) with your hatred of all things American. Britian has a thriving, independent press, though most people don't bother with it, partially because the education system is failing and needs more money put into it...

A recent poll says that Britain is far more anti-American than it should be, mostly due to the media. The lies spouted by the Iranians and Bin Laden have been swallowed hook, line and sinker by Europe, who now have started a few of it's own - that America hates Muslims, that it's awful at climate change (the US has better CO2 reduction than the EU) and so on.


> I reckon that Labor was re-elected in 2005 because of other issues, and the Iraq War was not one of them. In the U.S. opponents of the Iraq War were equally enraged at the lack of equipment provided for the troops.


in the UK the anti-brigade refused to support our troops, and has consistantly cried "get out of there". Good to see that you also recognise that governments get elected on other issues to war - now apply that to transport, which come below defence.


> Meanwhile, politically connected contractors were receiving no-bid contracts and performing sub-standard work without repercussion. It demonstrated the cronyism of the Bush administration and its militaristic, but not pro-military policies.


which is completely off-topic - the topic is basically at the moment "would it be the case that if the UK didn't go Iraq, these HSLs would be closer to being built" and the answer is "no" despite your protests. Hospitals would have slightly more middle managers who don't really do much and one new hospital.


> Please don't call me uninformed because I erred in a minor semantic matter, not recognizing that the HSR proposal called for THREE lines on five corridors.


No - I used your enthusiasm that 5 lines might get built to show that you are a BAANAE - build absolutely anything near absolutely everywhere - the opposite of a BANANA (build absolutely nothing at-all near anything) - you don't think pragmatically when it comes to it, you'd consider it normal to have two new lines from London to Birmingham. You keep on failing to realise that the average joe doesn't put transport high up it's priorities when voting nationally, and so transport is rather ignored. Just because you love new infrastructure, doesn't mean everyone else is as passionate. Even so, I don't why I can't call you uninformed anyway, seeing as you get a piece of information wrong.

You are naive simply because you fail to grasp the political reality in the UK - the NHS eats all the money (it is the third largest employer in the world), and whatever is left goes into Education and local government, the loose change goes on the police and defence and the stuff down the back of sofa goes into transport. I've explained that average Joe has dictated that it's this way - that ill people get looked after, that children are taught, that the country and it's people are safe from crime and outside threats as priorities and near the bottom of the list of things that the Government should do is allow us to move about quickly and in comfort - as long as we can move about, even if slowly and standing up, it's not too bad.


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## hoosier

Britain doesn't have to respond to where its military is "demanded", especially in areas where that demand was fabricated (Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan).

There are two motorways that connect London and Birmingham but no high speed lines? Lack of funds comes from 11 years of horrific Thatcherism and the rightward shift of the Labor Party as a result.

In what ways was my post racist? Is America a distinct color? I hate my government and my nation's culture. As a patriot, I criticize what I disagree with. The Constitution grants me that right.

And America is anti-Muslim. It arbitrarily detained and tortured thousands of Muslim men after 9/11 including U.S citizens and operates torture camps in Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Eastern Europe, in addition to sending suspected terrorists to Middle Eastern allies that practice torture.


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## Svartmetall

hoosier said:


> There are two motorways that connect London and Birmingham but no high speed lines? Lack of funds comes from 11 years of horrific Thatcherism and the rightward shift of the Labor Party as a result.


The journey time between London and Birmingham by train is currently an hour and a half. The London - Birmingham corridor is incredibly dense as well with numerous towns en route and so there is very little to be saved by investing millions in a service which is perfectly good at present. 

1hr 30min is faster than you could drive centre to centre.


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## sotonsi

hoosier said:


> Britain doesn't have to respond to where its military is "demanded", especially in areas where that demand was fabricated (Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan).


all three the demand isn't fabricated - Iraq was initially, however you can't deny that the Iraqi government has needed outside help to counteract the opposition (also outside backed) in this civil war - we're having to bribe the government to allow us to not fight! Afghanistan is also the case that we're supporting the government. Kosovo was to stop what was becoming a genocide (against Muslims). And of course, the UK military doesn't have to answer 'yes' to requests for help. However to say that the UK military is too big is totally absurd. To say that it takes too much money is also absurd, given that it's under-funded. And finally that any money saved in defence would be spent on transport.


> There are two motorways that connect London and Birmingham but no high speed lines?


no there's not - there's one motorway (the M40) and one motorway that heads nearby en-route to Yorkshire that has a connecting motorway that was always to link the east 'coast' route of the M1 to the west coast route of the M5/M6 (that goes through Birmingham). There's also an HSL (WCML), plus a 100mph+ route (not currently served - Paddington via Oxford and Leamington, as it goes a long way round, and the 75mph Chiltern route is quicker from Banbury).


> Lack of funds comes from 11 years of horrific Thatcherism and the rightward shift of the Labor Party as a result.


no it comes from a Government that sees transport as not really worth funding. Nothing to do with left and right - Thatcher (and Major)'s Government came up with far more radical transport plans - both roads and rail. Labour under Blair and Brown have been absolutely shocking on transport - they've been fighting new infrastructure from day 1. Pretty much everything that has been built in the last ten years, and that which is to be built in the next ten, was scrapped from the programme (may not have had assent, but was in the early stages of planning) in '97 and then brought back on because it just had to be. Billions of pounds were wasted on studies that failed to give the answer that Labour wanted (and therefore done again), even though these studies had been done before '97.


> In what ways was my post racist? Is America a distinct color?


no, but American is a nation. Racism isn't always about colour, but then you have your US press bias that it is.


> I hate my government and my nation's culture. As a patriot, I criticize what I disagree with. The Constitution grants me that right.


You can't be a patriot if you hate your country (funnily enough, the American bad guys in 24 always use the argument "I'm a patriot" to justify mass murder of American citizens). The constitution grants you the right to oppose the government, it doesn't give you the right to slander all it's citizens.


> And America is anti-Muslim. It arbitrarily detained and tortured thousands of Muslim men after 9/11 including U.S citizens and operates torture camps in Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Eastern Europe, in addition to sending suspected terrorists to Middle Eastern allies that practice torture.


Evidence - a lot of that is just propaganda from the anti-American brigade? And how can you justify such actions as Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan (in the 80s) where America has actively supported and protected Muslims from others - it's not anti-Muslim, it's anti-genocide (shame about Sudan - but that was because it was Muslims doing the genocide) and anti-aggressive-anti-Americanism. They've arrested people in Afghanistan and Iraq because they were fighting against them - it wasn't because they were Muslims, or arbitrary, it just happens to be the case that Islam hates the American way of life. It's shocking the way that many of them have been treated (though there's little evidence of torture, and the few cases that there have been have been dealt with by criminal convictions) - I totally agree with that - however to call America anti-Muslim from that is a joke, a very bad joke. Basically it's doing the same as what's happening in Camp X-ray - you're declaring them guilty before proven so. Those terrorist suspects sent to the Middle East, are returned home - if those countries torture those people, it's not the US's fault. If it were the case that they weren't sent home, you would complain that they were detained in a foreign country...

However, once again, I'm going to assert what this debate is about to try and stop you going off topic for the third time - the right and wrongs of Iraq and American (and British) foreign policy are not relevant - what's relevant is that you have completely failed to back up your argument that "This fucking Iraq War is draining resources from Britain as well I see." It's not really true - a couple of billion extra on the defence budget, and it's definitely not true that these HSRs would have been built if we hadn't gone there - the bit of the budget spent on Iraq would have been spent (if not on decent equipment for the Army, Navy and RAF elsewhere) on hospitals, schools, etc. Not some very nice, 'luxury' transport infrastructure to wizz business men about and allow commuters to have a bit more comfort. I totally want at least a London-Birmingham HSR (because it's needed), however I know that most people aren't as bothered as I am about it, so while it will happen, I'd have to wait.


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## iampuking

Why has a thread about British Railways descended into a political discussion? It's a complete yawnfest and you could easily argue about it elsewhere.

The reason there isn't a high speed line in Britain (except for HS1) is because the government are short sighted morons that don't realise the benefits.


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## elfabyanos

Sotonsi - I'd re-evaluate the bit where you say Islam hates the american way of life -I think you mean Islamic fundies - could start a flame war with that!


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## sotonsi

Not all those who call themselves Muslims follow Islam - many people just the bits that they want to and reject the bits that they don't like. And to be honest, even these liberals would come down pretty harsh on things like sleeping around not only being OK but being almost a good thing, violence being entertainment, getting wasted, greed, etc... OK, it's not quite what America is, but it's what you see from outside.

Islam hates America, most of all, because it's not in the 'house of peace' but the 'house of war' - in other words it hasn't embraced Islam. Most real Muslims, even in places like the UK would agree with that, even if they want to change that peacefully. To disagree with such a thing, while I'm not an Islamic scholar, is to basically not follow Islam. The basic creed about Allah and Mohammed defines Islam - to not say that all other world-views are wrong and declare war against Allah is to deny that creed. It is an exclusive truth-claim - there's no room for the conflicting exclusive truth-claim of relativism. 'Why can't we all get along' doesn't work - simply as you are basically forcing relativism on everyone for that work. There's going to be disagreements, there's going to be various ways in which that disagreement is manifest - the terrorist take the extreme action, others use diplomacy and non-violent protest, still more don't bother trying to resolve the difference and try to ignore it.

I don't want to start a flame war, but I'm disagreeing with many people who call themselves Muslims, but have removed the less appealing bits of Islam (quite rightly) and actually don't follow Islam. Islam clearly is against many of the things that America and the West (more so places like France than America) stand for. I'll ignore all the explanation of Koranic hermeneutics and verses that basically explain that Muslims should be opposed to the modern Western way of life, or they aren't actually Muslims, simply as this isn't the place.

Anyway, back to British Railways...

Is it me, or is Portsmouth-Southampton the most awful intercity journey for it's length? It's very, very slow.


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## hoosier

sotonsi said:


> (funnily enough, the American bad guys in 24 always use the argument "I'm a patriot" to justify mass murder of American citizens). The constitution grants you the right to oppose the government, it doesn't give you the right to slander all it's citizens.Evidence - a lot of that is just propaganda from the anti-American brigade? And how can you justify such actions as Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan (in the 80s) where America has actively supported and protected Muslims from others - it's not anti-Muslim, it's anti-genocide (shame about Sudan - but that was because it was Muslims doing the genocide) and anti-aggressive-anti-Americanism. They've arrested people in Afghanistan and Iraq because they were fighting against them - it wasn't because they were Muslims, or arbitrary, it just happens to be the case that Islam hates the American way of life. It's shocking the way that many of them have been treated (though there's little evidence of torture, and the few cases that there have been have been dealt with by criminal convictions) - I totally agree with that - however to call America anti-Muslim from that is a joke, a very bad joke. Basically it's doing the same as what's happening in Camp X-ray - you're declaring them guilty before proven so. Those terrorist suspects sent to the Middle East, are returned home - if those countries torture those people, it's not the US's fault. If it were the case that they weren't sent home, you would complain that they were detained in a foreign country...


It's clear you don't know what you are talking about and choose to read the right-wing Murdoch rags that downplay the criminal and murderous policies of the West towards the Muslim world. Do a little bit of goddamn research and you will find the evidence that corroborates my assertions. THe U.S. government knew exactly what it was doing when it sent suspects to be tortured in Middle Eastern countries. And if those men arrested in Afghanistan were guilty, why were so many later released with many others never being charged? Have you heard of habeus corpus? It is a crucial component of any free society, and both the U.S. and U.K. ignore it now. The U.S. didn't help Muslims in Afghanistan in the 80s. THey sent aid to right-wing religious anti-communist fanatics.

Fundamentalist Islam doesn't hate the American way of life as you so ignorantly claim- they hate how the U.S.: 1) supports unpopular and repressive governments in the region, notably Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan; 2) continues to meddle in the affairs in the region; 3) and steadfastly supports Israeli crimes against the Palestinians and Israeli expansion into the occupied territories.

Here are a few resources to start:

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/torture/renditions.htm

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/torture/rendition.html

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/06/13/usint19126.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-09-muslim-american-cover_x.htm


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## elfabyanos

Sotonsi you are being an idiot. Muslim is the participle of the same verb of which Islām is the infinitive. I have many friends who follow Islam and they do not hate America, nothing about their faith would give them cause to do so, some of them even work for an American company with me!!! What the hell are you talking about not all muslims follow Islam?

As in Christianity one the main tenets of Islam is that you do not kill. Before you continue to talk utter crap about billions of people read some history of Islam and you will find out where your misinformed ideas have developed from. I cannot believe you would go on to a public forum and declare Islam "the house of war". What a moron.


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## jarbury

Geez.... what the heck does this have to do with Britsh Railways? Come on guys let's leave it before the mods need to hack into this thread with a chainsaw.


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## sotonsi

elfabyanos said:


> Before you continue to talk utter crap about billions of people read some history of Islam and you will find out where your misinformed ideas have developed from. I cannot believe you would go on to a public forum and declare Islam "the house of war". What a moron.


I haven't said Islam is "the house of war" - I said that it states that those outside it are in "the house of war". Islam is "the house of peace" according to it's teaching. You are putting words in my mouth, though maybe I was a little bit inelegant and didn't make myself clear.

I also suggest that you look at the history of Islam as well - I have studied it quite a bit and, funnily enough, many of my ideas come from that. My relatively brief studies of the Koran and Hadith, and Koranic hermeneutics (ie what bits have more importance, what it actually means, etc) also have shaped my ideas. I've tried to steer away from anything that should be contraversial in there but the brainwashing of the "Islam doesn't hate us" brigade has got to you, so even asserting what is one the main teachings of Mohammed (get into "the house of peace with Allah" and hate "the house of war against Allah") is contraversial, simply as it doesn't fit in with the many who call themselves Muslims (but aren't) views.

I love Hoosier's second reason as to why the fundies hate America, which is basically "the Islamic fundamentalists hate America as it supports governments that agree with Islamic fundamentalism" :lol: Even an American like Hoosier should be able to see the irony there that shows it to be bull. The fundamentalists hate those outside Islam, simply because they are outside Islam - things like Israel and other meddling in the middle east and the suspension of habeas corpus (only really a UK/US thing - most Western countries don't even have it - I do concur that it's a bad thing) just add fuel to the big smokescreen-producing fire that legitimises the terrorists cause (though not the means) in the Western press and amongst the liberal Muslims.

However all this is by-the-by for this thread. Portsmouth-Southampton - a truly awful route that needs upgrading - sadly the plans for diverting the route via Southampton Airport haven't amounted to anything - even less news than the E-W rail link, which might go ahead in 10 years time, linking Oxford and Aylesbury to Milton Keynes. There seems to be lots of plans, but not much talk on those plans, let alone action - the British transport situation under New Labour (not that other governments were better, nor that the other parties will be better).


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## elfabyanos

sotonsi said:


> I've tried to steer away from anything that should be contraversial in there but the brainwashing of the "Islam doesn't hate us" brigade has got to you


You still haven't provided any proper support to your claims, even the adjusted ones that have been more eloquently phrased. You have advised that you have done some brief study on the subject - which is an appeal to authority and not therefore justification whatsoever - but can you show the anti-American doctrine in the Quran? (And yes I do know that that is a trick question. Nonetheless please back up your nonsense or withdraw it).

Then, as quoted above , you have used an ad hominem argument against me, to undermine my position, and without any basis. 

That's 2 logical fallacies right there. Frankly *you* are the one that sounds like the fundementalist - ranting nonsense, ranting divisive rhetoric and failing to speak and communicate rationally.


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## G5man

Can we save politics for the skybar and get back on track. 

Such as why Eurostar carriages look short in comparison to German ICEs?


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## Songoten2554

yeah people take the political talks elsewhere this is about British Railways not politics so does anybody has more pictures of the Railways and metros and such?

so does anyone have pictures of HS1 and the East London Extension or something?


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## elfabyanos

G5man said:


> Can we save politics for the skybar and get back on track.
> 
> Such as why Eurostar carriages look short in comparison to German ICEs?


Because they are. They were designed for use on the classic lines out of London, and trains on these routes can only be 20m due to the curves and loading guage, whereas normally around the UK the standard is 23m. I'm not sure if that the only reason or the reason at all, but they are shorter.


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## Magellan

city_thing said:


> What is the likeliness of this actually being realised? I'm wondering if any of the 'experts' on here have any idea?
> 
> I know there's a lot of talk of HSR throughout Britain, and it really is inevitable that it will need to be built sooner or later. But these proposals seem to come and go, and speculation is the only thing that remains. I'd love for there to be a decent HSR system in my home country, I'm just hoping that it will be built and operating before I'm too old to use it.
> 
> With so many airlines facing hardship, thousands more passengers using rail, fuel prices going up and environmental issues to consider, any objectively thinking person would realise that this needs to be constructed.


In this instance, the justification is based on indications that existing routes will not be able to cope with the projected growth in passenger numbers rather than say a desire to keep up with the Joneses. This is also coming from Network Rail which has responsibility to look at these issues rather than an outside body/pressure group.

The big problem is going to be obtaining the funding; Thameslink was originally intended to be completed by the year 2000, but budgeting and approval delays mean that it will not be completed until 2015/2016.

The CTRL was completed some 12 years after the tunnel was opened, again mainly because of the lack of funding. There was even a squabble over the £60 required to fit-out the new Thameslink box at St Pancreas with the new Eurostar station nearly opening with Thameslink trains passing through the empty box.

The British economy is bust at the moment so funding for any major rail projects will be hard to find - it is even possible that Crossrail will be further delayed, and there is still a more than £1 Billion gap in the funding for Network Rail in the next five year plan.

I think a figure of £30 Billion has been quoted as the cost for one HSR line linking London with Birmingham, Manchester, and Scotland - that is more than the existing allowed debt at Network Rail, and twice the current projected cost of Crossrail. There is a lot of work to be done to make any progress on HSR in the UK, though it is now slightly ahead of further electrification.


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## Magellan

elfabyanos said:


> Because they are. They were designed for use on the classic lines out of London, and trains on these routes can only be 20m due to the curves and loading guage, whereas normally around the UK the standard is 23m. I'm not sure if that the only reason or the reason at all, but they are shorter.


I think it was specifically beacuse they needed to operate over the North London lines.


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## Magellan

*Off-topic postings*

All,

Please do not rise to the bait - better to make use of the icon in the bottom left corner to report offensive and off-topic posts.


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## elfabyanos

Magellan said:


> I think it was specifically beacuse they needed to operate over the North London lines.


I thought the south east London ones are more restrictive.


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## jarbury

It's an interesting point to ask whether high-speed rail between London and Birmingham is actually worth it, if existing connections are pretty good.

London to Manchester I start to see the point, and even more so up to Scottish cities. Surely it would take longer to fly from Birmingham to London than it would to catch the train (heck especially if you ended up at Stanstead or Gatwick), so a HSR connection isn't really going to attract anyone that's not already catching the train, if that makes sense.


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## Magellan

jarbury said:


> It's an interesting point to ask whether high-speed rail between London and Birmingham is actually worth it, if existing connections are pretty good.
> 
> London to Manchester I start to see the point, and even more so up to Scottish cities. Surely it would take longer to fly from Birmingham to London than it would to catch the train (heck especially if you ended up at Stanstead or Gatwick), so a HSR connection isn't really going to attract anyone that's not already catching the train, if that makes sense.


The best journey time, non-stop, between London and Birmingham is about 1h 10m for an approx. 170 Km journey and is configured as an inter-city service. The stopping services are much slower and serve the intermediate towns rather than Birmingham.

I think a HSR link between London and Birmingham, with services configured for commuter travel and making the journey in 30 - 45 minutes at 350 Km/h would significantly change the economic dynamics not just of London, but of a large proportion of the west midlands with its population of, I think, 5 million or so (sorry I do not have any of the figures). I would think it would alleviate the economic pressures on London and be of economic advantage to the run-down midlands.

Birmingham has to be the first step in the construction of any route going to the north west, and will cost in the region of at least 5 - 6 £billion so we have to make the best use of it with new commuter services until the long-distance routes open up.

P.S. I do not think there are any air links between Birmingham and the London airports.

P.P.S.
This is the link to the GreenGauge21 group which is pushing for the HSR services in the UK:
http://www.greengauge21.net/


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## Magellan

*HSR in the UK*

There is an interesting article here (PDF):
http://www.railpro.co.uk/issues/pdfs/high_speed_hopes.pdf

... with a discussion on this thread:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=595169


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## G5man

That is very irritating how it is commented that HSR is not environmentally friendly. I am very sure that extra flights that burn quite a bit of fuel and output carbon are friendlier than a full electric train that could possibly be run off of renewable energy resources. 

The competition for the Chunnel will be good for passengers. It perhaps will allow trains of faster speeds to go into the UK and force better HSR throughout the UK.


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## Magellan

G5man said:


> That is very irritating how it is commented that HSR is not environmentally friendly. I am very sure that extra flights that burn quite a bit of fuel and output carbon are friendlier than a full electric train that could possibly be run off of renewable energy resources.


That comes from one of the rail ministers, and it has surprised a large proportion of the rail industry - I believe they are busy collecting the evidence to demonstrate otherwise.




G5man said:


> The competition for the Chunnel will be good for passengers. It perhaps will allow trains of faster speeds to go into the UK and force better HSR throughout the UK.


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## amirtaheri

Even were existing services were good, that is not the question that ought to be the topic of debate. The reason why the HSR option should be pushed is because of capacity. The West Coast Mainline, as it is is suffering from a severe lack in capacity. The number of services can't really increase on the line and as a result, the only option to increase capacity is to build new lines. By having a HSR line going up to Birmingham and then up to Manchester/Liverpool, you can reduce demand on existing lines and thus free up capacity by moving it elsewhere, plus commuters have a faster connection from Birmingham to London.


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## Magellan

amirtaheri said:


> Even were existing services were good, that is not the question that ought to be the topic of debate. The reason why the HSR option should be pushed is because of capacity. The West Coast Mainline, as it is is suffering from a severe lack in capacity. The number of services can't really increase on the line and as a result, the only option to increase capacity is to build new lines. By having a HSR line going up to Birmingham and then up to Manchester/Liverpool, you can reduce demand on existing lines and thus free up capacity by moving it elsewhere, plus commuters have a faster connection from Birmingham to London.


The study announced by Network Rail is wholly based on the need to boost capacity and not primarily on the need for HSR services, so I am not sure what the issue is.


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## elfabyanos

Yeah, HSR is being looked into for providing capacity as much as anything else. NR projects that the WCML will run out of capacity in 5-10 years. The ECML in about the same time. Segregating high speed services will effectively double capacity and bring wider economic benfits including a significant increase in passengers.

The govt's position about HSR not being environmentally friendly has been blown out of the water. Firstly because oil is going up in price so there is no reason for the govt to find an excuse to stick to diesel, secondly figures have since come out showing the HSR is (and will get better) actually more efficient than the incorrect facts they had, and thirdly power from the national grid is due to get cleaner as they replace/upgrade power stations and introduce renewables.


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## Justme

jarbury said:


> It's an interesting point to ask whether high-speed rail between London and Birmingham is actually worth it, if existing connections are pretty good.
> 
> London to Manchester I start to see the point, and even more so up to Scottish cities. Surely it would take longer to fly from Birmingham to London than it would to catch the train (heck especially if you ended up at Stanstead or Gatwick), so a HSR connection isn't really going to attract anyone that's not already catching the train, if that makes sense.


I think there is a possibility for HSR between Birmingham and London though it would have to be managed properly.

Take Germany's equivalent for example, the Frankfurt to Cologne leg which is about the same distance as London to Birmingham. This was completed a few years ago to big fanfare as the fasted train line in Germany. I think it was the first to reach 300km/hr in normal use. The buildup suggested 50minutes travel time between the two cities and I have travelled this a few times. Never however have I seen that 50minutes originally stated. Usually it is 1hr 11minutes to 1hr 20minutes depending on stops. The main problem was politics as it passed through a state which the state government demanded that there should be a stop as compensation. So now, the train slows down and stops at a tiny station with empty platforms to please the politicians and slows the whole service down.

To be honest, that 1hr 20min service of HSR is not much better than the 1hr 30minutes of your "slower" line.

If this link is built it should aim for a 45-50minute journey between the two cities. This is possible, as long as politics don't get in the way.


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## Justme

Magellan said:


> The best journey time, non-stop, between London and Birmingham is about 1h 10m for an approx. 170 Km journey and is configured as an inter-city service. The stopping services are much slower and serve the intermediate towns rather than Birmingham.
> 
> I think a HSR link between London and Birmingham, with services configured for commuter travel and making the journey in 30 - 45 minutes at 350 Km/h would significantly change the economic dynamics not just of London, but of a large proportion of the west midlands with its population of, I think, 5 million or so (sorry I do not have any of the figures). I would think it would alleviate the economic pressures on London and be of economic advantage to the run-down midlands.
> 
> Birmingham has to be the first step in the construction of any route going to the north west, and will cost in the region of at least 5 - 6 £billion so we have to make the best use of it with new commuter services until the long-distance routes open up.
> 
> P.S. I do not think there are any air links between Birmingham and the London airports.
> 
> P.P.S.
> This is the link to the GreenGauge21 group which is pushing for the HSR services in the UK:
> http://www.greengauge21.net/


If that is true, that there are 1hr 10minutes journeys between Birmingham and London, then that is better than the Frankfurt to Cologne link whose best is 1hr 11minutes and is considered one of the fasted HSR lines in Germany. Of cause then it's the stops that makes the difference.

Would it be worth it for the population? Why yes, London is much bigger than Frankfurt or Cologne, and although you can include the large population of the Rhein Ruhr, then you have equivalentswith Frankfurt and Birmingham and the Rhein Ruhr and London. However, one advantage is that after Cologne, the line does continue to other cities in the north like Berlin or Hamburg, so to make it profitable, you would need some links north East or West of Birmingham.


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## Magellan

Justme said:


> I think there is a possibility for HSR between Birmingham and London though it would have to be managed properly.
> 
> Take Germany's equivalent for example, the Frankfurt to Cologne leg which is about the same distance as London to Birmingham. This was completed a few years ago to big fanfare as the fasted train line in Germany. I think it was the first to reach 300km/hr in normal use. The buildup suggested 50minutes travel time between the two cities and I have travelled this a few times. Never however have I seen that 50minutes originally stated. Usually it is 1hr 11minutes to 1hr 20minutes depending on stops. The main problem was politics as it passed through a state which the state government demanded that there should be a stop as compensation. So now, the train slows down and stops at a tiny station with empty platforms to please the politicians and slows the whole service down.
> 
> To be honest, that 1hr 20min service of HSR is not much better than the 1hr 30minutes of your "slower" line.
> 
> If this link is built it should aim for a 45-50minute journey between the two cities. This is possible, as long as politics don't get in the way.


I am surprised.

The service I was looking at is the Virgin London to Birmingham inter-city service on the existing WCML which has a top speed of 200 Km/h (but not throughout its route).

The current best journey time (that I can find) for the 170/180 Kms is 1h 29 mins which includes three intermediate stops. This will be cut to about 1h 10mins when the new timetable goes into operation in December 2008 (which may be achieved by also eliminating one of the stops) with three trains per hour. It can take up to 3 hours at the weekend due to extra intermediate stops.

The Greengauge21 proposal is for HSR services to run on new LGV 300km/h class lines for most of the route, but to use up-rated conventional lines at each end of the London/Birmingham sector in the initial phase. The service pattern is for a non-stop services on the line, with stopping services to be handled by the 200/225Km/h trains similar to those planned for use on the HS1 route to Kent from 2011.

They are currently quoting a best journey time of 55 mins end to end, but with extra funding they could take the line to 350Km/h and have dedicated HSR track all the way through (as per requirement for HSR services beyond Birmingham) thus making 35/45 mins journey possible.

So yes, I think you have a right to be disappointed with the service DB is offering.


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## Magellan

Justme said:


> If that is true, that there are 1hr 10minutes journeys between Birmingham and London, then that is better than the Frankfurt to Cologne link whose best is 1hr 11minutes and is considered one of the fasted HSR lines in Germany. Of cause then it's the stops that makes the difference.
> 
> Would it be worth it for the population? Why yes, London is much bigger than Frankfurt or Cologne, and although you can include the large population of the Rhein Ruhr, then you have equivalentswith Frankfurt and Birmingham and the Rhein Ruhr and London. However, one advantage is that after Cologne, the line does continue to other cities in the north like Berlin or Hamburg, so to make it profitable, you would need some links north East or West of Birmingham.


I quite agree.

The point I was making was that an HSR service would significantly change the economics of London and the West Midlands if the service was treated as a fast commuter rather than premium, cum inter-city service.

Going beyond Birmingham, we have Greater Manchester with about 4 million, and Leeds with 2-3 million plus other near-by population centres all within 30 mins or so HSR travelling time of Birmingham.

So in the UK, the dynamics and potential customer base is quite different from that in France for example.


----------



## elfabyanos

Magellan said:


> The current best journey time (that I can find) for the 170/180 Kms is 1h 29 mins which includes three intermediate stops. This will be cut to about 1h 10mins when the new timetable goes into operation in December 2008 (which may be achieved by also eliminating one of the stops) with three trains per hour. It can take up to 3 hours at the weekend due to extra intermediate stops.


There's one train in the morning, the 0745 from New Street, does it in 1 hr 22 minutes by eliminating the stop at Coventry. Once Rugby station is finished it won't slow down the through trains but still I can only concieve of the 1hr 10 minute time being achieved by having less stops. 

With a new HSL Brimingham would be under an hour from London. I doubt to begin with the line would go all the way to Birmingham, most concepts opt for a phased approach. I'm also unsure that the eventual London to Scotland line would go directly through Birmingham as that would be costlier than bypassing it which the WCML does now. That would leave Birmungham on spurs to the north and south. It will be interesting to see Arup's proposals when they publish them.


----------



## Magellan

elfabyanos said:


> There's one train in the morning, the 0745 from New Street, does it in 1 hr 22 minutes by eliminating the stop at Coventry. Once Rugby station is finished it won't slow down the through trains but still I can only concieve of the 1hr 10 minute time being achieved by having less stops.


The December 2008 timetable takes advantage of all the work that has been carried out on the WCML over the last few years with improvements to the line speed and the removal of bottle-necks to improve the journey times and line capacity. The 1h 10mins is the figure quoted by Virgin (I'm not sure if they take out Coventry or not, but I think all Birmingham services will stop at Milton Keynes with the introduction of the new timetable).




elfabyanos said:


> With a new HSL Brimingham would be under an hour from London. I doubt to begin with the line would go all the way to Birmingham, most concepts opt for a phased approach. I'm also unsure that the eventual London to Scotland line would go directly through Birmingham as that would be costlier than bypassing it which the WCML does now. That would leave Birmungham on spurs to the north and south. It will be interesting to see Arup's proposals when they publish them.


Yes, in Greengauge21's proposal the route will follow conventional lines in London and Birmingham with the new LGV sections rated at 300Km/h - the 30/35mins headway is only possible if the route is LGV all the way and rated at 350Km/h. The Greengauge21 proposals see the Scottish link going via Birmingham and continuing over the WCML from Stoke (or there abouts) onwards.

The Network Rail report will look at a few options, one of which is for a North of England and Scottish link going via Cambridge.

Regarding the Arup proposal; the consensus seems to be that it was half-baked, and did not go into sufficient detail beyond Heathrow. I think though they are planning to publish a more detailed proposal. See issue 146 of Rail Manager for their comments on the proposal:

http://91.186.0.3/~keepingt/railmanager/RMOL_2008.htm


----------



## elfabyanos

Magellan said:


> The December 2008 timetable takes advantage of all the work that has been carried out on the WCML over the last few years with improvements to the line speed and the removal of bottle-necks to improve the journey times and line capacity. The 1h 10mins is the figure quoted by Virgin (I'm not sure if they take out Coventry or not, but I think all Birmingham services will stop at Milton Keynes with the introduction of the new timetable).


Of which the only change left that will benfit the west midlands services is the Rugby remodelling which will reduce journey time by about 3 minutes at most. As far as I can tell the trains are already doing 125mph on all sections able to do it south of Rugby, so unless there are any further improvements I'm unaware of any reductions to save that extra 15 minutes will have to come from less stops or using less slack in the timetabling - which may well be possible as a serious amount is built in at the moment to cope with all the works and historical poor performance of the WCML.



> Regarding the Arup proposal; the consensus seems to be that it was half-baked, and did not go into sufficient detail beyond Heathrow. I think though they are planning to publish a more detailed proposal. See issue 146 of Rail Manager for their comments on the proposal:
> 
> http://91.186.0.3/~keepingt/railmanager/RMOL_2008.htm


It was quite obvious it wasn't the final proposal, Arup are an engineering firm, yet they hadn't even provided any (non topological) route maps. They won't finish until they've done some surveying and put together a complete risk/cost/time calculated strategy, like they did for the CTRL.


----------



## Magellan

elfabyanos said:


> Of which the only change left that will benfit the west midlands services is the Rugby remodelling which will reduce journey time by about 3 minutes at most. As far as I can tell the trains are already doing 125mph on all sections able to do it south of Rugby, so unless there are any further improvements I'm unaware of any reductions to save that extra 15 minutes will have to come from less stops or using less slack in the timetabling - which may well be possible as a serious amount is built in at the moment to cope with all the works and historical poor performance of the WCML.


Services are not yet using the line to its full capabilities - the December 2008 timetable change takes advantage of changes to the running times.




elfabyanos said:


> It was quite obvious it wasn't the final proposal, Arup are an engineering firm, yet they hadn't even provided any (non topological) route maps. They won't finish until they've done some surveying and put together a complete risk/cost/time calculated strategy, like they did for the CTRL.


I do not know the reason why they released the work, but whatever it was, it not particularly robust, and it was surprising that it was published into teh public domain when it was incomplete.


----------



## elfabyanos

Magellan said:


> Services are not yet using the line to its full capabilities - the December 2008 timetable change takes advantage of changes to the running times.


You've said this already. The timetable improvement is only going to be achieved by taking up slack south of Rugby. Otherwise you are telling me there are going to be further linespeed improvements south of Rugby. Are there?



> I do not know the reason why they released the work, but whatever it was, it not particularly robust, and it was surprising that it was published into teh public domain when it was incomplete.


I don't find it surprising at all. If it was exact it would cause all sorts of political problems, for example from people living in the path of the proposed route. The government would not have thanked Arup at all if it started having to deal with campaign groups for a proposal it wasn't even close to signing up to. That info should come out at the public consultation stage only. Arup are one the world's leading engineering firms, I find it very hard to believe they would make a schoolboy error over a £4.5bn project.


----------



## Magellan

elfabyanos said:


> You've said this already. The timetable improvement is only going to be achieved by taking up slack south of Rugby. Otherwise you are telling me there are going to be further linespeed improvements south of Rugby. Are there?


Get a life or take it up with Virgin and Network Rail.




elfabyanos said:


> I don't find it surprising at all. If it was exact it would cause all sorts of political problems, for example from people living in the path of the proposed route. The government would not have thanked Arup at all if it started having to deal with campaign groups for a proposal it wasn't even close to signing up to. That info should come out at the public consultation stage only. Arup are one the world's leading engineering firms, I find it very hard to believe they would make a schoolboy error over a £4.5bn project.


Rubbish - the work was shoddy and is an embarrasement to the company - someone slipped up.


----------



## elfabyanos

Magellan said:


> Get a life or take it up with Virgin and Network Rail.


I don't take kindly to having the same thing said to me over and over when its quite plain that I already knew it and it has no bearing on the validity of my point. You tell me to get a life but can you honestly say you weren't enjoying being the all-knowledgable-teacher in this forum, but the moment you are questioned look how you react?

Just to be petty I would like to point out your incorrect use of the term "headway", which in railway terms means the time distance between two trains which is likely to be 3 minutes on HS2, not the length of the journey.

And do you really think you know better than one of the world's finest engineering firms?


----------



## Magellan

elfabyanos said:


> I don't take kindly to having the same thing said to me over and over when its quite plain that I already knew it and it has no bearing on the validity of my point. You tell me to get a life but can you honestly say you weren't enjoying being the all-knowledgable-teacher in this forum, but the moment you are questioned look how you react?


As I said, if you have a problem with the 1h 10m, take it with Virgin and Network Rail who published the information and whom are better informed than you or I on the matter. Once again - get a life.




elfabyanos said:


> Just to be petty I would like to point out your incorrect use of the term "headway", which in railway terms means the time distance between two trains which is likely to be 3 minutes on HS2, not the length of the journey.
> 
> And do you really think you know better than one of the world's finest engineering firms?


Thank you - you are correct - I used the wrong terminology.

Arup - that was not my opinion, but that of commentators on the industry who know Arup better than you or I - see above.


----------



## elfabyanos

Magellan said:


> As I said, if you have a problem with the 1h 10m, take it with Virgin and Network Rail who published the information and whom are better informed than you or I on the matter. Once again - get a life.


Did I say I had a problem with the 1hr 10 mins? No, I didn't. Did I speculate on how that would be achieved? Yes. Where on earth did you get the idea that I was arguing with NR? Besides the fact that I already know about the high frequency virgin timetable and that unlike you I'm not in the habit of thinking I know better than large organisations, I didn't actually say anything to contradict you. You have bent this completely out of shape, and telling me to get a life because you don't understand what you're reading and getting all huffy is pathetic


----------



## Brummyboy92

When will we find out whether or not the HSR will be built from London to Birmibgham? Its probaly been asked loads of times so sorry!


----------



## Magellan

Brummyboy92 said:


> When will we find out whether or not the HSR will be built from London to Birmibgham? Its probaly been asked loads of times so sorry!


There is no firm plan to build HSR lines in the UK. The main activity at the moment is to justify it on costs vs benefits. Network Rail is looking at options to tackle projected overcrowding on a number of routes, but not specifically to look at the introduction of HSR services. Its analysis will probably not be completed until next year at teh earliest.


----------



## Magellan

elfabyanos said:


> Did I say I had a problem with the 1hr 10 mins? No, I didn't. Did I speculate on how that would be achieved? Yes. Where on earth did you get the idea that I was arguing with NR? Besides the fact that I already know about the high frequency virgin timetable and that unlike you I'm not in the habit of thinking I know better than large organisations, I didn't actually say anything to contradict you. You have bent this completely out of shape, and telling me to get a life because you don't understand what you're reading and getting all huffy is pathetic


You seem to be attempting to take the thread off topic again. You should perhaps review your attitude when you post.


----------



## iampuking

Magellan said:


> You seem to be attempting to take the thread off topic again. You should perhaps review your attitude when you post.


No, I think you did the moment you resorted to pathetic personal insults


----------



## Magellan

iampuking said:


> No, I think you did the moment you resorted to pathetic personal insults


I suggest you go back and read the thread and posts.


----------



## iampuking

Magellan said:


> I suggest you go back and read the thread and posts.


And read the bit where you tell someone to "get a life"?


----------



## elfabyanos

Magellan - You took it off topic when you thought I was arguing about the 1hr 10mins. And then you started the insults. Maybe you should review your attitude to your postings. 

Twice this thread has gone off-topic and yes I responded to it (technically it was Hoosier who took the thread off topic, then Sotonsi, then me), but I am not going to sit idly by whilst people make unfair comments about sections of the human race. I also think I have the right to correct people when they misunderstand my posts, and when my posts are perfectly clear in the first place I won't make any apologies for it either.



> You seem to be attempting to take the thread off topic again. You should perhaps review your attitude when you post.


A typical response from someone without humility - how about answering to the point? Did I argue with you over the 1hr 10 minute thing? No. Are you going to respond when I put it to you that *you* therefore have taken this off topic?


----------



## elfabyanos

Well I have taken it up with Virgin and it appears there won't be very large time savings for Brum to London services anyway. It turns out I should have argued! Much ado about nothing. The fastest service will be 1 hr 12 minutes, and that will be achieved by being non-stop - as I thought. The rest of the services will take 1 hr 22 minutes. 

http://www.virgintrains.com/img/aboutus/downloads/WC_2009_Timetable_Commentary.pdf


Virgin said:


> 2009 Timetable Commentary
> Introduction
> This commentary gives an overview of the timetable plans for 2009, which follow the principles outlined in the Department for Transport’s May 2006 Progress Report on the West Coast Main Line. The finer detail is being worked through, and we will share that at the earliest opportunity. It is also important that the finer detail is seen in the context of other operators’ timetables. It is our intention to share the detail as widely as possible when we are able to do so.
> The commentary here is specifically about the weekday service on the West Coast route, and will we hope be useful. The timetable itself is just one part of the picture for 2009. There are other other strands of activity, including more than 4,000 more parking spaces at our stations. The majority of these are planned to be ready for the start of the new timetable. You will also be aware of the significant amount of engineering work Network Rail needs to complete to enable the 2009 timetable change to happen, and the effect this has on weekend and bank holiday services.
> 
> Euston – Preston / Carlisle / Glasgow / Edinburgh
> • 13 Glasgow to Euston services and 13 Euston to Glasgow services operate. No Euston to Edinburgh service operates in either direction.
> • The typical end-to-end journey time will be 4hrs 26 mins.
> • The fastest train of the day is the 1630 Euston – Glasgow which completes the journey in 4hrs 10 mins. It is planned that this service will call at Preston only.
> • An hourly service will operate throughout the day between London Euston and Preston with some additional services in the peaks. The fastest journey time is 2hrs.
> • Trains depart from London Euston at xx30 past each hour with additional Euston – Glasgow trains in the evening peak at 1657 and 1757.
> • The 1030,1230 and 1430 services from London Euston terminate at Lancaster.
> • The majority of services run non stop between London Euston and Warrington Bank Quay, then call at Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme or Penrith (generally alternate services call at one or the other), Carlisle then Glasgow Central.
> • The 1430 Euston – Lancaster and 1737 Lancaster – Euston to be operated by class 221 Voyagers.
> • Two northbound and one southbound service to call at Lockerbie.
> • In the morning peak there is an 0535 departure from Lancaster (Class 221 Super Voyager) which couples to the 0447 Holyhead – Euston at Crewe.
> • This is followed by a 0430 Glasgow – Euston service calling at Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan and Warrington, then non stop to Euston.
> 
> Euston – Birmingham – Wolverhampton
> • A 20 minute frequency throughout the day between Euston and Birmingham, with one train an hour running through to Wolverhampton.
> • Typical off peak journey times are 1hr 22 mins from Birmingham New Street to London Euston and 1hr 47 mins from Wolverhampton to London Euston.
> • A fast 0704 Wolverhampton to London Euston service is to operate calling at Sandwell and Dudley and Birmingham New St only. This service will run express from Birmingham New St to London Euston in 1hr 12 mins.
> • A fast 0741 Birmingham International to London Euston service also operates calling at Coventry only.
> • Off peak all services call at Birmingham International and Coventry - with services calling at either Rugby, Milton Keynes Central and Watford Junction to give Birmingham New Street a clockface hourly service to each.
> • The 0510 and 0530 Birmingham – Euston and 2223 and 2343 Euston – Wolverhampton to be operated by class 221 Voyagers to avoid diesel hauling when services are diverted via Nuneaton.
> • The 0510 Birmingham New St to London Euston and 2343 Euston – Birmingham services to be routed via Nuneaton.
> 
> Euston to Chester / Holyhead
> • All services to be operated by class 221 Voyagers. An hourly service operates throughout the day between Euston and Chester calling at Milton Keynes Central and Crewe only. Typical journey times between London Euston and Chester are 2hrs.
> • Holyhead services are generally formed of 2 x Voyagers between London Euston and Chester where the 1st set goes forward to Holyhead.
> • Through services to / from North Wales operate at the following times:
> 447 Holyhead to London Euston
> 0550 Holyhead to London Euston
> 0650 Holyhead to London Euston
> 0850 Holyhead to London Euston
> 1217 Bangor to London Euston
> 1350 Holyhead to London Euston
> 2017 Bangor to Birmingham New St
> 0530 Birmingham New St to Holyhead
> 0810 London Euston to Bangor
> 0910 London Euston to Holyhead
> 1610 London Euston to Bangor
> 1710 London Euston to Holyhead
> 1810 London Euston to Holyhead
> 1910 London Euston to Holyhead
> 
> Euston to Manchester
> • Services operate every 20 mins throughout the day.
> • The xx00 ex London Euston services call at Stoke, Macclesfield and Stockport.
> • The xx20 ex London Euston services call at Milton Keynes Central, Stoke and Stockport.
> • The xx40 ex London Euston services call at Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport.
> • The xx15 ex Manchester Picc services call at Stockport, Stoke and Milton Keynes Central.
> • The xx35 ex Manchester Picc services call at Stockport, Macclesfield and Stoke.
> • The xx55 ex Manchester Picc services call at Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe.
> • Typical journey times are 2hrs 5 mins from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly with the fastest train completing the journey in 1hr 58 mins.
> • The fast “headline” train from Manchester will be the 0700 departure which will call at Stockport only.
> 
> Euston to Liverpool
> • Services to operate hourly throughout the day at xx07 from Euston and at xx48 from Liverpool. Additional trains operate at 1733 and 1833 from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street and at 0527, 0605 and 0700 from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston.
> • A new earlier train will operate from Euston to Liverpool Lime St at 0535 and the last train will be at 2107.
> • A new late train will operate from Liverpool Lime St to London Euston departing at 2048 calling at Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Lichfield, Tamworth, Nuneaton, Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford.
> • Typical journey times are 2hrs 7 mins from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston with the fastest train taking 2hrs 1 min. The fast “headline” train from Liverpool will be the 0700 departure which will call at Runcorn only.
> • The standard calling pattern is at Stafford and Runcorn only.
> Birmingham – Glasgow / Edinburgh
> • As part of the revised franchise mapping, Virgin West Coast will take over the operation of the hourly Birmingham – Scotland via Preston services as follows. All trains to be worked by 221 Voyagers.
> • Trains will operate hourly from Birmingham to Carlisle (departing at xx20 past each hour), continuing forward to either Edinburgh or Glasgow. All services will call at Wolverhampton, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, (then either Oxenholme or Penrith) and Carlisle.
> • Southbound services depart from Edinburgh at 2 hourly intervals departing xx52 and from Glasgow Central at 2 hourly intervals at xx00
> • In addition a 0557 Crewe – Glasgow Central and a 2010 Glasgow Central – Crewe will operate.
> • Intermediate stations between Preston and Carlisle, and also Lockerbie will be served by Manchester Airport – Glasgow / Edinburgh services operated by First TransPennine Express. An evening peak Virgin Trains departure from Glasgow Central will call at Lockerbie.
> 2009 Timetable Commentary
> Further Information
> 
> Trent Valley
> • Virgin West Coast services will call at Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton only during the morning and evening peaks, and during the evening when Trent Valley local services do not operate.
> • In between, an hourly London Euston to Crewe “West Midlands Franchise” class 350 “Desiro” stopping service will operate.
> • Nuneaton is served by “Desiros” only during the off peak.
> • Nuneaton calling VWC trains are:
> 04.55 Manchester Picc – London Euston
> 05.55 Manchester Picc – London Euston
> 04.47 Holyhead – London Euston
> 07.35 Manchester Picc – London Euston
> 19.48 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
> 20.48 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
> 17.10 London Euston – Holyhead
> 18.10 London Euston – Holyhead
> 19.07 London Euston – Liverpool Lime St
> 20.07 London Euston – Liverpool Lime St
> 21.07 London Euston – Liverpool Lime St
> 22.00 London Euston – Manchester Picc
> • Lichfield and Tamworth calling VWC trains are:
> 05.34 Preston – London Euston
> 06.05 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
> 20.48 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
> 16.57 London Euston – Glasgow Central
> 17.57 London Euston – Glasgow Central
> 20.30 London Euston – Preston
> 22:00 London Euston – Manchester Picc
> Crewe
> • London Euston to Glasgow Central and Liverpool Lime Street services no longer call at Crewe. However, Crewe is still served by two trains an hour to/from London Euston (these being a Manchester and the Chester service).
> • Customers from Crewe to Glasgow Central to travel by Virgin West Coast Birmingham – Glasgow services. Customers from Nuneaton and Stafford to Crewe and from Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street to travel by “West Midlands Franchise” services.


----------



## sotavento

iampuking said:


> Why has a thread about British Railways descended into a political discussion? It's a complete yawnfest and you could easily argue about it elsewhere.
> 
> The reason there isn't a high speed line in Britain (except for HS1) is because the government are short sighted morons that don't realise the benefits.


hno:



G5man said:


> Can we save politics for the skybar and get back on track.
> 
> Such as why Eurostar carriages look short in comparison to German ICEs?





elfabyanos said:


> Because they are. They were designed for use on the classic lines out of London, and trains on these routes can only be 20m due to the curves and loading guage, whereas normally around the UK the standard is 23m. I'm not sure if that the only reason or the reason at all, but they are shorter.





Magellan said:


> I think it was specifically beacuse they needed to operate over the North London lines.


^^ The "TGV" family vehicles (of wich Eurostar is a member) use shorter cars suported by pairs tru a common bogie:


There are no "high speed" lines in britain because the "standard speed" lines are up to 125mph/201km/h so they sufice as fast railway routes ... and there are too many "upgradeable" routes to choose from for a "brand new" HSL to even be considerable as "doable" ... both in terms of economic cost of that construction and in terms of trying to bypass the "moronic" (no ofense here) and "predatorial" (take ofense here) local authorities/against-anything-groups along the way of the not-even-proposed-but-already-oposed route. 

:lol:

For the given example (London-Birmingham) ... out of 3 or four possible routes for a new HSL ... theres already a railway built in everyone of them ... and it's an "upgradeable" railway in every case. hno:

Let me see how it is nowadays:

London-Bedford-Wigston-Nuneaton-(Coventry)-Birmingham
London-MiltonKeines-(Northampton)-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham
London-Aylesbury-(closed railway)-...-Birmingham
London-H.Wycombe-Banbury-LeamingtonSpa-birmingham
London-Reading-Oxford-Banbury/Gloucester-Worcester-Birmingham

^^ The fact that only one of these routes is being "upgraded" to 125mph (and one is even closed) should make some light on the matter. hno:


----------



## G5man

Well if they can be upgraded, they might as well to allow speeds of 300 km/h (186 mph) or greater. It would be good for the London 2012 games. The faster, the more attractive the option becomes.


----------



## Rational Plan

I think there is a growing industry consensus that with even conservative growth rates the main approaches to London are already full and more and more trains will see more standing passengers. The government has already had to perform a u-turn on electification as it's excuses not to electrify began to face ever greater ridicule. 

Everyone knows that the first section of line will run from London to Birmingham. Most of the proposed routes all take a Western approach into London, because of the spare land running alonside the Central line, and link up with the newly expanded Trent Valley lines North of Birmingham. This section has been recently widened so should have a few years capacity still in it. All that differs on how they access Moor Street in Birmingham and how or whether they interface with Heathrow. 

Conspiracy theorists (or realists) have suggested the sudden plethora of studies is a way to delay as long as possible the building of a new high speed line. The Department of transport was supposedly worried because the proposed HS2 line was gaining to much support too quickly, within the industry. 

It's a long standing technique in the UK to string along a project, not wanting to to cancel a popular proposal but not actually commit any money to it. Most of the time it is quietly strangled, sometimes though it becomes to powerful to stop, and usually some deformed scheme lurches to life with so many changes, sometimes for the better, but often pared down in capacity to save money that as soon as it opens they have to start looking at upgrading it.


----------



## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> For the given example (London-Birmingham) ... out of 3 or four possible routes for a new HSL ... theres already a railway built in everyone of them ... and it's an "upgradeable" railway in every case.
> 
> Let me see how it is nowadays:
> 
> London-Bedford-Wigston-Nuneaton-(Coventry)-Birmingham
> London-MiltonKeines-(Northampton)-Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham
> London-Aylesbury-(closed railway)-...-Birmingham
> London-H.Wycombe-Banbury-LeamingtonSpa-birmingham
> London-Reading-Oxford-Banbury/Gloucester-Worcester-Birmingham
> 
> ^^ The fact that only one of these routes is being "upgraded" to 125mph (and one is even closed) should make some light on the matter. hno:


They are not upgradable for a couple of reasons (except the GWML). To upgrade them will bring forward the date when capacity runs out on the existing routes. Having faster long distance passenger services reduces the remaining capacity for other services, services which also are projected to expand. The only viable long term option is new lines, and as such they may as well be high speed. Also, as the West Coast Route Modernisation has proven to the industry, upgrading such heavily used lines is expensive and disruptive, for an outcome that isn't a breathtaking advance. 125mph is a welcome improvement on 100/110mph, but it the industry is now thinking that the £8bn could have been spent differently to more effect. Similar plans for the ECML seem to have been quietly shelved a few years ago.

Also - the Bedford - Nuneaton route is only used for freight, no passenger services go between these two stations, all passenger services from both stations go to Leicester and I'm not certain there would be a market otherwise. The MML is only capable of 125mph maximum with tilt if it were to be upgraded. The Chiltern line is not a high priority (except to the relevant TOC) and is being slowly upgraded anyway. Much more important than the routes you've quoted is the ECML and the GWML, and perhaps the south west - north east cross country route, and the trans-penine.


----------



## Brilliant

Some good news:



> *Rail strategy plans track dualling in north west*
> Filed 01/09/08
> 
> Rail tracks in Carlisle are to be redoubled and Cumbrian coast train frequencies increased under plans contained within Network Rail's latest route utilisation strategy.
> 
> The Lancashire and Cumbria RUS sets out the forecast growth in population, employment and housing and estimates rail usage over the next 10-15 years setting out Network Rail's strategy to meet this demand. The publication, which will now be submitted to the Office of Rail Regulation, follows a three month consultation period with key stakeholders and additional analysis. The ORR has 60 days to consider this after which it will become an established strategy.
> 
> The strategy to increase peak capacity in the period 2009-2014 includes:
> 
> -Line speed improvements between Burnley and Hebden Bridge to shorten journey times on the Leeds-Blackpool route. The current speed limit of 45mph could be raised to at least 55mph and as much as 70mph where suitable
> 
> -Re-doubling of the tracks at London Road junction in Carlisle to improve performance of freight and passenger services on the Settle-Carlisle line
> 
> -More regular trains into Sellafield
> 
> -More regular train services between Preston and Ormskirk, and an improved service between Preston and Southport
> 
> -Sunday services from Carlisle to Whitehaven to increase from three to four a day
> 
> -Improving the Settle-Carlisle timetable to give a regular two-hourly service, with targeted additional services where passenger requirements and space in the timetable coincide
> 
> -The proposal to lengthen trains and platforms on the Manchester-Clitheroe line is already included in Network Rail’s Strategic Business Plan but it is now recommended that the peak time services between Manchester and Blackburn are extended to Clitheroe
> 
> -Minor alterations on Platforms 1 and 2 at Preston to improve passenger flow and ability to get connections. This would include relocating the buffet and staff accommodation from their present position to elsewhere on the platform, and improving passenger facilities
> 
> -For the period 2014 to 2019 Network Rail is proposing the resignalling scheme already planned for the Whitehaven-Maryport line should include a remodeling of the track layout in Maryport and the provision of an additional platform. The creation of a new Maryport signalling centre and the performance improvements that will bring may mean the possibility of running additional Sunday services.
> 
> Peter Strachan, route director for Network Rail said: "After a successful consultation process, I am convinced that we now have a robust and purposeful strategy for delivering a rail network in Lancashire and Cumbria that can handle the expected increase in use over the next decade or so. This is an exciting time for the rail industry. The changes ahead will improve the reliability, capacity and connectivity of routes across the north west."





> *Alloa rail reopening success prompts extension study*
> Filed 01/09/08
> 
> The recent introduction of rail services to and from Alloa in Clackmannanshire has proved so successful that regional transport body SEStrans is to examine options for extending the service.
> 
> SEStrans - the South East Scotland Transport Partnership - intends to commission a feasibility study early next year investigating the possibility of running trains between Alloa and Edinburgh. The investigation will consider possible routes as well as options for funding the necessary infrastructure upgrades.
> 
> To reach Edinburgh, services from Alloa, which currently travel through Stirling to Glasgow Queen Street station, could run via Falkirk or alernatively be routed over the reopened freight line to Kincardine and on to Edinburgh via Dunfermaline and the Forth Bridge. It is understood this is SEStrans' preferred option.
> 
> The feasibility work will investigate the cost of improving infrastructure on the Dunfermaline route, including building a south-facing chord at Charlestown Junction, which would avoid the need for trains to reverse, and building passing loops between there and Alloa.
> 
> A spokesman for SEStrans said: "This is essentially about the possibility of restoring a passenger link across south east Scotland, which has been made more realistic by the recent Alloa–Kincardine project. There are a number of potential benefits."
> 
> Alloa railway station was reopened earlier this year after a 13-mile stretch of disused line between Stirling and Longannet Power Station in Kincardine was reinstated (Transport Briefing 19/05/08). Since its re-opening, the number of passengers using the service has exceeded the expectations of train operator First Scotrail, which said it has been carrying nearly 35,000 passengers a week.





> *Network Rail picks Mace for Birmingham New St work*
> Filed 03/09/08
> 
> Construction services and engineering company Mace has been selected by Network Rail as delivery partner for the Gateway Plus project to overhaul and expand the concourse and platforms at Birmingham New Street station.
> 
> A member of staff at Mace confirmed the contract win this week ahead of an official announcement in a fortnight's time when Network Rail will reveal details of the companies that will be responsible for delivering the separate components of the £600m scheme, which will double passenger capacity at the West Midlands rail hub.
> 
> Balfour Beatty Management and Carillion are understood to have competed against Mace for the delivery partner role.
> 
> Work on the Gateway Plus project is scheduled to begin next year and will be split into two phases for completion in 2013. The station concourse will be doubled in size and platforms 8 and 9 - the station's busiest - will be widened. New escalators and lifts will be installed and the number of entrances to the station will be increased from two to five.
> 
> The scheme is being funded by the Department for Transport, the Department of Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform and the New Street Gateway Partnership - a consortium of local authority partners.





> *Eurostar kicks off six-year train refurbishment programme*
> Filed 03/09/08
> 
> Cross-Channel train operator Eurostar is to embark on a major refurbishment of its high speed trainsets in an attempt to encourage more travellers to use the High Speed 1 rail link between London and Continental Europe.
> 
> The six-year overhaul programme is intended to improve the standard of carriage accommodation with cutting edge design that will help Eurostar lure passengers from airlines. The interiors of the company's 28 Class 273 trains, which were built in 1992 and have been operating services through the Channel Tunnel since 1994, are looking increasingly shabby alongside the recently opened St Pancras and Ebbsfleet International stations.
> 
> Eurostar has divided the refurbishment work into three lots focusing on concept design, manufacturing integration and fit out/delivery and is inviting expressions of interest from suppliers which feel they can handle one or more lots. For the concept design work Eurostar says it is "looking for a partner that can help us define the next generation of high speed rail travel, who has the breadth of knowledge to be able to address all the different facets of the brief, from customer insights, environmental concerns, service design, maintenance issues, cleaning regimes and statutory requirements to ultimately deliver a unique brand experience that is both aspirational for our travellers and ownable by Eurostar".
> 
> The remit of the integrator includes responsibility for ensuring that each interior component is produced in accordance with the selected design, on time and on budget. Concept and engineering designs must be validated by the manufacturing integrator, which must also take ownership of those designs, carrying out their own engineering designs if necessary.
> 
> Finally, the fit out/delivery work includes the management of all staff involved in this phase of the refurbishment and the supplier must be able to work at third party premises in parallel to the technical mid-life overhaul of the Eurostar fleet, which may be carried out in-house. Tenders for all three lots must be submitted by the end of this month.


Link.
http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/


----------



## city_thing

Great news about Birmingham New Street


----------



## Gag Halfrunt

The Eurostar trains were refurbished a few years ago, IIRC. I suppose that someone has now decided that it wasn't good enough.


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## serdar samanlı1

Are there any double-decker British trains?


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## Joeman

serdar samanlı;26786486 said:


> Are there any double-decker British trains?


Nopehno:


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## elfabyanos

There used to be on the south east lines out of London. It didn't last long.

It was too cramped. Double decker train are really only viable where you can make them big enough to be comfortable. And that's anywhere in the world apart for the UK pretty much - the loading guage is often too small.

http://dart75.tripod.com/bddshis.htm


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## Manchester Planner

For those seriously interested in the British rail network and trains -

http://www.railwayherald.co.uk/

Free weekly magazine available to download (and all previous editions are available still to download). Happy reading/viewing!


----------



## mr_storms

elfabyanos said:


> There used to be on the south east lines out of London. It didn't last long.
> 
> It was too cramped. Double decker train are really only viable where you can make them big enough to be comfortable. And that's anywhere in the world apart for the UK pretty much - the loading guage is often too small.
> 
> http://dart75.tripod.com/bddshis.htm


Ive seen those before, and although they definitely looked cramped, they dont appear to be split-level (ie the lowest floor is platform level). It would seem like you could get an extra 2 ft or so of height by lowering the lower level, which might just make them viable (maybe). Would still be pretty cramped of course.


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## sotonsi

I went on a double decker in Germany - the top deck had me very nearly ducking, at about 5' 3" - I think the height must have been 1.6m of that deck.


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## hoosier

Britain needs to quit being so bloody stingy and make the investments necessary to have a top rate rail system. CHina is going apeshit in expanding its rail network. The West needs to follow CHina's lead.


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## Manchester Planner

You can't really compare the railway networks or the situation of China and Great Britain*! The British network is historic (something like 90% built pre-1880 or so) and the population density of the country (as well as limitations regarding historic structures, protected landscapes, etc) mean that upgrading and expanding the railways is expensive and troublesome. China is a rapidly industrialising nation - Britain went through that phase over a century ago and built its railway network accordingly. Since then the country and its railways have changed massively as the country has de-industrialised. There has been enormous investment in the past decade in Great Britain, both for passenger and freight, and the numbers using the network, and the freight moved, is up to near all-time record highs. Lines previously closed in the 1950s and '60s are re-opening or are planned to. Scotland and Wales are leading the way in this regard.

_*note that Great Britain has a railway network and Ireland has a separate network with a different gauge_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge_in_Ireland


----------



## amirtaheri

Question being here is whether new railway lines these days, are they being built to the W6 Loading gauge, ie, the Berne Loading Gauge or are they still being built to UK Loading gauge spec? Reason being is that I would love to see something like the Australian Millenium train or the TGV Duplex come to the UK. For those trunk routes like London-Manchester or London-Birmingham, where additional capacity would be nice! 

Another question is whether with any rail replacement/track relaying, is there any effort being made into relaying them to the Berne Loading Gauge?

I think I read a report somewhere that put the cost of the entire network being put to Berne Loading gauge at the region of £150 billion, which I think makes a wholesale conversion unviable, but I've always wondered whether doing it piecemeal on the mainlines would be financially viable.


----------



## Svartmetall

I'm not sure whether or not I'd like to see the Millenium train being run on British rails - it's an okay train, but I wouldn't say it stands out from its class. The TGV Duplex, however, I agree 100% - I'd love to see them running!


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## elfabyanos

amirtaheri said:


> Question being here is whether new railway lines these days, are they being built to the W6 Loading gauge, ie, the Berne Loading Gauge or are they still being built to UK Loading gauge spec? Reason being is that I would love to see something like the Australian Millenium train or the TGV Duplex come to the UK. For those trunk routes like London-Manchester or London-Birmingham, where additional capacity would be nice!


The most important issue is catering for demand that exists - and that is high cube deep sea containers which cannot operate on most of the network. At present there are no double decker trains that need this extra size but there are freight wagons that do. I think NR are taking a progressive approach to increasing guage on the mainlines, but from a freight perspective. Upgrades when renewals take place is only done where it would have a future as they are under pressure to cut costs and converting a little used branch line to Berne guage would be folly of course. They are required to give provision for future electrification however, especially when re-doing signalling.

I haven't checked for any specifics but these two documents should have some answers in there for you.

(watch out 13Mb) http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...tilisation strategies/freight/freight rus.pdf


http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...date/Strategic Business Plan April update.pdf


----------



## kegan

The W6 loading gauge is the most wide spread and rolling stock built to that gauge should be able to run on most of the network. 

There are a few diagrams of different UK and European loading gauges here that might be of interest.

W6 is pretty tight really - in fact very similar to the New Zealand standard loading gauge - which meant that all those ex-British Rail carriages exported to NZ didn't require much work clearance wise to run (narrow gauge bogies lowered the height a little). Some even went into service with British Rail "No Smoking" and "First Class" signs still stuck inside the double glazed window units and still fitted with BR seats.


----------



## flierfy

sotonsi said:


> I went on a double decker in Germany - the top deck had me very nearly ducking, at about 5' 3" - I think the height must have been 1.6m of that deck.


They certainly offer than 1,80 m. I can comfortably stand there. And I'm 1,80 m tall.


----------



## sotonsi

funny, I distinctly remember that I was one of the few in our group that could stand without problems. Then again, a lot of the group were rather tall, but it was more than just the giants that had to stoop to get a seat. It was easily bearable (and rather funny - I love it when people who are tall have problems because of it, as normally they make fun of my smallness), but rather claustrophobic compared to what I was used to (then again, that was A stock - the largest, most spacious, trains in the UK!) Then again it was 8 years ago.


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## Manchester Planner

CREWE




























And another railway mecca in Britain - Doncaster:

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/doncaster/aerial-doncaster.htm


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## elfabyanos

Old documentary from about 15 years ago called "Old, Dirty & Late" about the problems of commuting in south east London. A lot has changed since then, the railways have been privatised, all the old trains have bee replaced and even more trains are now using these tracks.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J-peIDOiTt8&NR=1


----------



## hkskyline

*Congested UK railways costing passengers dear *

LONDON, Nov 18 (Reuters) - Increasing congestion on the British railways is magnifying the effect of disruptions and leaving passengers facing costly delays, the government spending watchdog said on Tuesday.

The warning comes at a time when Network Rail, which owns and operates Britain's rail infrastructure, is under pressure to avoid a repeat of last year's Christmas getaway period, when they were fined 14 million pounds after engineering works overran, delaying the journeys of 200,000 people.

"Rail passengers pay handsomely to travel on trains and yet, through incidents on the network, are still suffering expensive delays," said Edward Leigh, chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts.

The Committee, which published a report into how incidents on the rail network are managed, found the reliability of trains has only just returned to levels that existed before the Hatfield train crash in October 2000.

The crash, which killed four people, led to widespread engineering work to replace sections of track.

During 2006-2007, over 1.2 billion passenger journeys were made in Britain, but the committee says this number is growing and greater congestion on the network means greater disruptions when problems occur.

The committee found that nine out of 10 services in 2006-2007 arrived on time but delays still cost passengers, who already paid a total of 5.1 billion pounds in fares, an extra 1 billion pounds in terms of lost time.

It also said the rail industry, which last year received more than 5 billion pounds in subsidies, needs to improve communications with the emergency services to minimise disruptions to the network. It found fire and rescue services often did not even know who to contact.

The report also found passengers whose trains are delayed are not kept properly informed by train operators. This finding was echoed by Passenger Focus, the national rail watchdog, who said only 34 percent of passengers are satisfied with the way train companies deal with delays.

"Passengers are rightly angered when their train comes to a halt for a lengthy period and nobody in the train crew can give them any information," Leigh said.


----------



## hoosier

Britain needs true 300 + km/h HSR. For such a developed and wealthy nation, with so many kilometers of track and so many people traveling via rail, to not have more than just one high speed rail line (London-Paris) is very sad.

Then again, it is a shame that the richest country in the world, America, has such a shitty rail system as well.


----------



## Svartmetall

hoosier said:


> Britain needs true 300 + km/h HSR. For such a developed and wealthy nation, with so many kilometers of track and so many people traveling via rail, to not have more than just one high speed rail line (London-Paris) is very sad.
> 
> Then again, it is a shame that the richest country in the world, America, has such a shitty rail system as well.


This argument has been used before. High speed rail won't necessarily result in that great an advantage in journey times unless built on a completely segregated network due to the frequency of stops along the main rail corridors. Considering the journey from London to Manchester can be done in ~2 hours by rail I wouldn't complain too much about the state of British railways with regards to speed nor frequency (as that route is being bumped up to a 20 minute frequency). I'd hardly put Britains railways in the same bag as American passenger rail services by any stretch of the imagination though.

If you were to moan about the price, however, I'd agree with you 100%.


----------



## elfabyanos

Svartmetall said:


> High speed rail won't necessarily result in that great an advantage in journey times unless built on a completely segregated network due to the frequency of stops along the main rail corridors.


I don't understand, where has high speed rail not been segregated?
I'm not sure about your point about the frequency of stops either, London - Glasgow trains are slowed down by many stops yes, but if Virgin didn't stop at these places there would almost be no one stopping there as the line is at capacity. HSL is as much to relieve capacity, have intermediate places served by intermediate services and make long distance travel separate as it is about decreasing journey times. Source Netwrok Rail.


----------



## Manchester Planner

hoosier said:


> Britain needs true 300 + km/h HSR. For such a developed and wealthy nation, with so many kilometers of track and so many people traveling via rail, to not have more than just one high speed rail line (London-Paris) is very sad.
> 
> Then again, it is a shame that the richest country in the world, America, has such a shitty rail system as well.


The building of high speed railway lines in the UK is very costly - either new lines would have to be built, which is nearly impossible in such a densely populated and urban country like ours, or existing lines would have to be upgraded, which would cause massive disruption and cost loads as existing tunnels, bridges, stations, etc would have to be replaced or altered.

The UK has a large existing network, which due to a long period of neglect and recent huge rises in passenger and freight use, needs investment, renewing and upgrading. I think it is right, for now at least, to concentrate on bringing the existing network up to scratch, before creating new long distance, high speed lines, which after all the majority of rail users in the UK wouldn't necessarily use.

Anyway, although we only have one 186mph/300kmph line, there are the East and West Coast Mainlines, which are 140mph and 125mph respectfully. Okay, the ECML is only 125mph as there isn't the approved signalling for 140mph running (though the track actually supports 140mph running). Many other lines in the country have 100 or 110 mph linespeeds. In a country that's not very big, with a high density of stations and junctions, those linespeeds are actually reasonable. Considering that the network was built mainly in the 1830s/1840s and which was almost left to ruin at times during the 20th century (1940s, 1960s, 1980s and 1990s), it's not doing too badly...


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## Svartmetall

elfabyanos said:


> I don't understand, where has high speed rail not been segregated?


Germany - The ICE network isn't totally segregated yet it is regarded as high speed rail.


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## Manchester Planner

As an example of what's possible at the moment in the UK - you can go from the centre of Manchester to the centre of London in 2 hours, with a train every 20 minutes (this is with the new winter timetable as from 14th December) via the West Coast Mainline. Building a high speed line between the two cities would only cut the journey time to 1 hour 30 mins - is the 30 minute saving really worth the billions of pounds of cost?


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## elfabyanos

Svartmetall said:


> Germany - The ICE network isn't totally segregated yet it is regarded as high speed rail.


Yes thats true, although they still built new lines for it. They didn't just upgrade existing routes for v. high speed services, although they have done that on certain sections. The point I'm trying to make is that actually there is no reason for any HSL we build to be totally segregated either. HS1 isn't in theory, it will have domestic services on it that under EU regs don't count as high speed, and it is also designed to accept freight. In fact, the class 375 southeastern use are also designed with using HS1 in mind, although the purchase of 395s has put paid to that. So segregation, if it occurs, would be down to other considerations that would cause it, and not be a central tenet of the proposal.



Manchester Planner said:


> As an example of what's possible at the moment in the UK - you can go from the centre of Manchester to the centre of London in 2 hours, with a train every 20 minutes (this is with the new winter timetable as from 14th December) via the West Coast Mainline. Building a high speed line between the two cities would only cut the journey time to 1 hour 30 mins - is the 30 minute saving really worth the billions of pounds of cost?


In terms of long distance high speed services on their own, probably not. Add in to the equation a doubling of freight, local and regional capacity (varied stopping patterns and vehicle speeds brings inefficient use of a network), an increase in TOC performance that a less diverse service mix always brings (local and regional trains don't spread any disruption so far throughout the network, and freight trains aren't too bothered about being kept on a loop for other things to pass if they are delayed so again they don't propogate delays in the same way), and suddenly the equation looks very different. This is what NR have said in the Network RUS.


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## serdar samanlı1

More pix please!


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## Manchester Planner

Freight locomotives (all diesel):

Class 37 - these legends were built c. 1960 and are still going!

















Class 57 - many of these are used to haul passenger services too









Class 60









Class 66 - the most numerous locos in use at the moment for freight in Britain









Class 08 (Shunter)


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## Manchester Planner

The very recently built _Tornado_ is the first new steam locomotive built in Britain since 1960 and will be used for special trains on the national mainline and on heritage lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Peppercorn_Class_A1_60163_Tornado










She will be painted soon. Currently undergoing extensive safety checks so that she can run at full speed on the mainline!


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## Manchester Planner

Class 45 on the Great Central Railway









(Electric) Class 87 on the West Coast Mainline









(Electric high speed train) Virgin Pendolino and EWS Class 66 on the West Coast Mainline









Class 143 unit at Bristol Temple Meads









Class 323 (electric multiple unit) at Manchester Piccadilly









Class 175 (diesel multiple unit) at Newport









As you can gather, there's quite a bit of variety in Britain!


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## Manchester Planner

There are a few electric locomotives used for freight, though freight is generally hauled by diesel as only a third of the network is electrified.

Class 90 (in a very clean EWS livery)









Class 92 hauling container traffic through Stafford (this is a very common sight in Manchester)


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## Manchester Planner

A contrast - two recently built lines...

The London-Paris (via the Channel Tunnel) line in Kent









The Welsh Highland Railway in North Wales









The Welsh Highland Railway will connect with the Ffestiniog Railway in spring 2009.


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## zaphod

Is that a real revenue freight or just a ballast replacement? A steam locomotive hauling something that isn't an old timey passenger car full of tourists with cameras, how insanely cool is that?

Anyways, when are they gonna roll out those Shinkansen-type CTRL trains?


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## Manchester Planner

Alas, only ballast replacement.

The Welsh Highland Railway is primarily a tourist/heritage railway, though it is newly built (completion next year) and will serve the national park it runs through in a commercial way. (Note that in the UK a "national park" isn't a park as such..) It will connect with the Ffestiniog Railway at Portmadog. Both are private railways, though with certain national rail tickets you can use the Ffestiniog line as part of a longer journey which otherwise uses national lines (the Ffestiniog Railway connects the Cambrian Coast line with the Llandudno Junction-Blaneau Ffestiniog line). The Welsh Highland Railway runs across from the Welsh north coast to its West coast, starting at Carnarvon. It may be possible to extend it to Bangor, where it would connect with the Chester-Holyhead line. So you see, these narrow gauge railways do form part of the wider network.

Both the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland are 2ft narrow gauge.

http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/whrroute.htm

25 miles long. Its objective is... "As well as being a magnet for rail enthusiasts, the rebuilt line will also offer a new way to reach the communities and countryside en route, and offer an alternative to motor transport in an ecologically sensitive area, particularly for the tens of thousands who visit Snowdonia every Summer." It wouldn't surprise me if the national park authority use the line to move materials in and out of the park, as there is little road access in parts.

The Ffestiniog Railway is 14 miles long, so the combined railways are 39 miles - quite a long narrow gauge railway network! Maps of the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways:










Up-to-date construction photos can be found here (scroll down):
http://www.isengard.co.uk/


----------



## Manchester Planner

zaphod said:


> Anyways, when are they gonna roll out those Shinkansen-type CTRL trains?


These beauties?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_395

Next year.


----------



## Republica

That steam train powered up the main line a few days back, looks like afew spotters were lining the route as it came past at 75mph. Bit strange seeing a steam train going up the ECML in 2008! Apparently it can go up to 90mph.


----------



## Manchester Planner

Maybe not on the ECML, but steam is surprisingly common on the national lines in Britain, especially at weekends. There are a lot of chartered/special trains running, some of which are diesel and some steam. Every fortnight or so a steam loco hauled train passes through Manchester Victoria.


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## serdar samanlı1

Do british suburb trains share tracks with mainline trains or they have dedicated tracks?


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## Republica

Theres no big differentiation - they are all part of the national rail system. Some have local only services, some have local and long distance on the same lines, some will have 4 tracks with the inner two for express.


----------



## sotonsi

Republica said:


> Theres no big differentiation - they are all part of the national rail system. Some have local only services, some have local and long distance on the same lines, some will have 4 tracks with the inner two for express.


or the right two, or the left two, or the outer two. In fact, I think the paired-by-speed arrangement is perhaps more common than the paired-by-direction. Often there's a flyover switching between the two types (Ilford, Wimbledon).


----------



## elfabyanos

sotonsi said:


> or the right two, or the left two, or the outer two. In fact, I think the paired-by-speed arrangement is perhaps more common than the paired-by-direction. Often there's a flyover switching between the two types (Ilford, Wimbledon).


To expand on this, in the South East (of London) its nearly always paired by speed. Out to Orpington, Shortlands to Swanley, Victoria to Three Bridges on the Brighton mainline. The latter is like this I think because the second fast set of tracks was added later. I think thats often the reason for that type of operation. I know the SouthWest mainline from Waterloo is paired by direction after Wimbledon, but I think that maybe down to the flyover works done on that route in the late 19th century to speed it up. Do you think the Ilford flyover may have been an 'upgrade' too? Paired by speed seems to make more sense with flat junctions, paired by direction makes more sense if there are semi-grade separated junctions, so you don't have situations where one train has to cross three other tracks in one go.


----------



## Koen Acacia

Manchester Planner said:


> The Welsh Highland Railway is primarily a tourist/heritage railway, though it is newly built (completion next year) and will serve the national park it runs through in a commercial way. (Note that in the UK a "national park" isn't a park as such..) It will connect with the Ffestiniog Railway at Portmadog. Both are private railways, though with certain national rail tickets you can use the Ffestiniog line as part of a longer journey which otherwise uses national lines (the Ffestiniog Railway connects the Cambrian Coast line with the Llandudno Junction-Blaneau Ffestiniog line). The Welsh Highland Railway runs across from the Welsh north coast to its West coast, starting at Carnarvon. It may be possible to extend it to Bangor, where it would connect with the Chester-Holyhead line. So you see, these narrow gauge railways do form part of the wider network.


That sounds like a damn cool project actually. Most of the time those "old" railway lines are just an isolated piece of track, but this one sounds great.


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## sotonsi

The Welsh Highland extension involves goes through great scenery - I went along part of the route at Easter en-route to Pwllheli. It's very, very cool. Definitely worth a ride when it opens.


----------



## Manchester Planner

Some photos of the Class 395 "Javelin" trains at their rather shiny and new depot!

http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/c1599018.html


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## city_thing

What are the frequencies like on the suburban rail systems in cities like Birmingham, Manchester & Liverpool? Do they made for good mass transit systems - or are the too irregular for that?

Basically, do they operate in an S-bahn type fashion?

I can't believe I've never even wondered about this before...


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## sotonsi

The City Line in Birmingham operates 6tph for it's central section. The other lines are in the 2tph range, IIRC.

The Wirral Line is made up of three 4tph services (Liverpool-West Kirby, Liverpool-New Brighton, Liverpool-Hooton splitting to 2tph Chester, 2tph Ellesmere Port). The Northern line is also made up of three 4tph services (Central-Kirkby, Central-Ormskirk, Hunts Cross-Southport).


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## Manchester Planner

Outside London the major cities don't really have dedicated suburban networks as such - the stations and lines in the suburbs are basically part of the national network that just happen to be within the urban area! There are dedicated commuter/suburban services and ticketing though, its just they run as part of the wider network and on national lines.

Greater Manchester's railway network:
http://www.gmpte.com/pdfmaps/GMPTERaildiagA4.pdf

The frequencies vary from line to line and I find that these days it's pretty good. They vary from 2 trains per hour up to about 4 or 5. It's not amazing but then the demand isn't that high as Manchester has a good bus network as well as trams and much of the employment is towards Trafford Park, etc where people commute generally by car.

The map above also includes the city's tram network ("Metrolink"), which is growing and is of course a dedicated network specifically for more local transit. Manchester's trams are quite heavily engineered and the infrastructure resembles actual railway lines/stations (probably because much of the network is ex-railway!) and frequencies are good with trams around every 8 minutes or so usually.










toot!


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## Manchester Planner

Whilst on the subject of the Metrolink - it's being rebranded over the next few years and the first station to have received the new branding is Piccadilly.










The network is to be expanded in the next two years with 4 additional lines (one long one, two medium length ones and one very tiny extension!) -
http://www.gmpte.com/pdfmaps/Geo_Metrolink_Extensions.pdf - new map of the network, come 2011 or so.

And the new trams will look like this:


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## Svartmetall

Dots are the new racing stripe of trams! 

Looks good though! I have to agree with your comment about commuter rail in the UK. I do wish we had more discernable suburban services like the continent, but at least routes are operated on a fairly frequent basis on the whole.


----------



## city_thing

Manchester Planner said:


> Outside London the major cities don't really have dedicated suburban networks as such - the stations and lines in the suburbs are basically part of the national network that just happen to be within the urban area! There are dedicated commuter/suburban services and ticketing though, its just they run as part of the wider network and on national lines.
> 
> Greater Manchester's railway network:
> http://www.gmpte.com/pdfmaps/GMPTERaildiagA4.pdf
> 
> The frequencies vary from line to line and I find that these days it's pretty good. They vary from 2 trains per hour up to about 4 or 5. It's not amazing but then the demand isn't that high as Manchester has a good bus network as well as trams and much of the employment is towards Trafford Park, etc where people commute generally by car.
> 
> The map above also includes the city's tram network ("Metrolink"), which is growing and is of course a dedicated network specifically for more local transit. Manchester's trams are quite heavily engineered and the infrastructure resembles actual railway lines/stations (probably because much of the network is ex-railway!) and frequencies are good with trams around every 8 minutes or so usually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toot!


Thanks for the information!

When I was growing up in the UK, both cities I lived in had metros (London & Newcastle) so I'd never really thought about other cities and their rail systems. It seems strange that the heavy rail systems of Britain's largest cities haven't really been utilised to their full potential - sure 4 trains an hour is good - but considering how dense cities like Brum, Manchester and Liverpool are, S-bahn type rail systems seem like they'd work really well. Even though [I presume] that the national rail lines going through the cities would be so congested that billions of pounds would have to be spent on signaling and track work to prepare them.

I also find it astounding how well the bus systems of the UK work. Australian cities would crumble to pieces without their suburban rail systems - and Britain copes brilliantly with buses, narrow streets and bigger populations, not to mention a lower rate of car ownership. I guess decentralisation might be a factor working in the UK's favour in this respect?

I also have to commend Manchester on it's Metrolink - brilliant system. I spent a week in Manchester a few years ago and used it extensively. Manchester has to be one of my top three cities on earth for sheer coolness!


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## elfabyanos

city_thing said:


> It seems strange that the heavy rail systems of Britain's largest cities haven't really been utilised to their full potential - sure 4 trains an hour is good - but considering how dense cities like Brum, Manchester and Liverpool are, S-bahn type rail systems seem like they'd work really well. Even though [I presume] that the national rail lines going through the cities would be so congested that billions of pounds would have to be spent on signaling and track work to prepare them.


Yeah you've hit the nail on the head. the best example is Birmingham, the route there between new street and Wolverhampton has a pathetic service for the locals, primarily due to the route being a two track line in a very densely built area, and that it is mainly used up by intercity and inter-regional services. This is part of the argument for HSR, in that having many of these services removed would allow a better local service giving benefits all round. the unfortunate truth for the UK is that many of the railways were designed and built primarily for freight operation, especially in the industrial heartlands, and so are not at all what any sensible railway planner would wish to have as passenger railway infrastructure. Still, we have to make do and where possible ake improvements. Slowly this will happen, and I think in 20 years time the local services in the cities will be much better due to infrastructure changes like Birmingham New st redevelopment and (fingers crossed) HSR.


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## Republica

I'm getting pretty certain that high speed lines will begin to be built within a decade.


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## elfabyanos

Yeah me too but I don't like to tempt fate!


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## Republica

crap! sorry.


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## elfabyanos

I tried to postsome phtoso but it went wrong (moderators delete!)


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## sotavento

hoosier said:


> Britain needs true 300 + km/h HSR. For such a developed and wealthy nation, with so many kilometers of track and so many people traveling via rail, to not have more than just one high speed rail line (London-Paris) is very sad.
> 
> Then again, it is a shame that the richest country in the world, America, has such a shitty rail system as well.





elfabyanos said:


> I don't understand, where has high speed rail not been segregated?
> I'm not sure about your point about the frequency of stops either, London - Glasgow trains are slowed down by many stops yes, but if Virgin didn't stop at these places there would almost be no one stopping there as the line is at capacity. HSL is as much to relieve capacity, have intermediate places served by intermediate services and make long distance travel separate as it is about decreasing journey times. Source Netwrok Rail.


A problem with building completely new HSR in the UK is precisely that everywhere that seems to be a good plasce to build one already has a double track railway that can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost. 

:shake:

Padington-Reading = 55km = 4 tracks ... why are 2 of them not at least at 140mph/250kph ??? (actually the speed there is of 125mph)

Padington-Reading-Didcot = 4 tracks ... 80km of underused "possible" HSR ... something like 20 minutes of travell time ??

Didcot-Swindon = 40km of more 125mph/200kph 
Swindon-Bath = 40km more of 125mph/200kph 
Bath-Bristol = 20km
Bristol-Exeter = 120km of 125mph/250kph


London-Bristol is only 190km ... well under the 1h travel time in a nonstop train ... or even with a stop at reading ... reported to be 1h21 currently

London-Exeter is 210km ... roughly 1h30 with a couple of intermediate stops at bristol , reading and somewhere else ... reported to be 2h40 currently

From bristol there are also possible HS trains to Wales and east of Exeter

^^ Just one of "way too many" examples of WHY HSR (at more than 125mph) is not such a great improvement over the current HSR (at 125mph) network ... :cheers:

Being a little bit liberal about it:

London-Swindon = 4 track 2 of wich could easily be put at "above" 125mph if desired

Swindon-Bristol = there are two concurrent double track routes (one via bah and one via Yate?) .. if both were at 125mph and a section of 8km near Swindon were quadrupled then we could claim that there was a 4 track route all the way 

an hourly service under the 1h travel time would be very competitive 
a couple of aditional services with some intermediate stops would also be competitive at the 1h travel time

Pay the price to upgrade to 300kph ??? to gain some 10/20 minutes ???

London-Birmingham is operated with half hourly frequencies by two different companies ... one in the express 1h30 time and another in a regional 2h30 time.


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## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> Yes thats true, although they still built new lines for it. They didn't just upgrade existing routes for v. high speed services, although they have done that on certain sections. The point I'm trying to make is that actually there is no reason for any HSL we build to be totally segregated either. HS1 isn't in theory, it will have domestic services on it that under EU regs don't count as high speed, and it is also designed to accept freight. In fact, the class 375 southeastern use are also designed with using HS1 in mind, although the purchase of 395s has put paid to that. So segregation, if it occurs, would be down to other considerations that would cause it, and not be a central tenet of the proposal.
> 
> In terms of long distance high speed services on their own, probably not. Add in to the equation a doubling of freight, local and regional capacity (varied stopping patterns and vehicle speeds brings inefficient use of a network), an increase in TOC performance that a less diverse service mix always brings (local and regional trains don't spread any disruption so far throughout the network, and freight trains aren't too bothered about being kept on a loop for other things to pass if they are delayed so again they don't propogate delays in the same way), and suddenly the equation looks very different. This is what NR have said in the Network RUS.


People easily neglect the fact that HS1 was only necessary due to the souteastern railways having an ultra-restrictive gauge. hno:


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## Republica

Firstly, I dont think that upgrades of existing lines will be cheaper - the WCML upgrade to 140mph was cut bacxk because it cost £8-10bn to get it up to 125mph.

Also, its not just about speed. Its capacity, the existing lines are full or close to it. With passengers expected to rise by 40% in the near future, we need new lines. The capacity of the old lines will then increase as the fast trains which use most time on the lines due to their speed will be gone.


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## Jaeger

> New ski train goes from downtown London to the footsteps of the Austrian Alps
> 
> November 9, 2008
> 
> http://www.skirebel.com/magazine/archives/1923
> 
> An overnight rail service between the UK and Austria’s ski area is being promoted as an alternative to the hassles of flying for British skiers.
> 
> The Bergland Express train travels overnight direct to famous Austrian ski resorts such as St Anton, Kitzbuhel, Innsbruck and Zell am See. In many cases you arrive ready to hit the slopes at 9am.
> 
> This winter the Bergland Express will stop at Aachen every Friday after a short connection with the Eurostar in Brussels at 14:34 local time.
> 
> Double and three-berth sleepers are available, as well as four- and six-berth couchette compartments.
> 
> The train returns a week later on Saturday evening for a mid-morning London arrival on Sunday.


Bergland Express Austrian Sleepers sound like good news for the ski crowd


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## sotavento

Manchester Planner said:


> The very recently built _Tornado_ is the first new steam locomotive built in Britain since 1960 and will be used for special trains on the national mainline and on heritage lines.
> 
> _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Peppercorn_Class_A1_60163_Tornado
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She will be painted soon. Currently undergoing extensive safety checks so that she can run at full speed on the mainline!


This is indeed interesting:



> Additionally, to meet with current safety and operation standards, Tornado includes:
> Up-rated electrical supplies
> Primary air (not steam) brakes[7]
> Vacuum brakes[7] (for heritage railway stock)
> 1 inch reduction in overall height[27] (for OLE regulations[27])
> Automatic Warning System (AWS),
> Train Protection & Warning System (TPWS).
> Data recorder
> European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) compatible GSM-Railway (GSM-R) cab radio


ERTMS and TPWS on a steamer while 1/2 de NEW locomotives around the world can't claim the same. :cheers:


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## Jaeger

Deutsche Bahn refuses to slow down.

The Guardian
November 25 2008 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/25/europe-germany

"More Germans believe the banks should be nationalised than Deutsche Bahn should be privatised," admitted Alexander Hedderich, head of DB's corporate development, as pouring rain darkened the depressed mood in the federal capital.

The state-owned rail group has pulled its long-promised stockmarket float of a 24.99% state in its passenger and freight/logistics business. This was due to go ahead in late October and raise up to €5bn (£4.25bn): with equal thirds of the proceeds going to the federal budget, the network of track, signals and stations and "future growth".

The planned IPO was always controversial, not least because it came with prospective bonuses for the DB executive team headed by Hartmut Mehdorn, and because it was heavily opposed by members of Transnet, the main rail union. The union, which is shedding its pro-privatisation general secretary, reaffirmed this at its congress this week.

But DB, which wants to become top dog when the EU market for passenger services is fully liberalised in 2010 and overtake France's state-owned SNCF, is undaunted. It knows it has perhaps just six or seven months to revive the IPO next year. There are federal elections in September and much uncertainty about the outcome, notably for the deeply divided grand coalition of centre-right CDU and centre-left SPD.

The political scene in Germany is frozen – and the capital markets even more so in the unfolding financial and economic crisis. The worst recession since 1993 is taking hold. But Hedderich insists DB's business model remains intact and forecasts a small increase in passenger traffic next year as the car and aviation markets slump. At most he can envisage a 1% decline on the rails.

Even so, nobody outside DB's headquarters near the Potsdamer Platz believes the float will go ahead next year. So Mehdorn and his team have developed an alternative strategy and claim the backing of chancellor Angela Merkel and her CDU, attracting capital from sovereign wealth funds in an initial stage. Mehdorn has spoken about DB being "an ice-breaker" in a Germany highly wary of state-controlled foreign investors.

Andreas Hamprecht, head of international business at DB Long-distance, insisted during a high-speed ICE journey from Hanover to Berlin that talks with funds in the Middle East, Russia, China and elsewhere in the Far East, including Singapore, have gone down well. "It gives us the perspective of fulfilling our growth strategy," he said.

Hedderich added that much less than the 25% equity stake in the "mobility and logistics" business for sale in the IPO was on offer, with no single investor offered more than 10% and, most likely, no more than 5%. It could be the Saudis, for instance, as they're planning enormous investments in rail and need European (preferably German) expert help.

But there's considerable scepticism about the wisdom of accepting capital from state-owned Russian Railways even though Hedderich insisted no investor was excluded a priori. DB is working with the Russians on speeding up journey times on the 20-day rail transit for container trains from China to Hamburg, an expansionist project already used by PC-makers Fujitsu Siemens and designed to offer a cheaper, more eco-friendly service than sea or air freight.

Hedderich suggested DB could, in a second stage of its capital raising, return to the postponed IPO. Either way, the group wants to raise capital rather than increase its €15bn debt to finance its expansion, including in the UK, France and eastern Europe.

[highlight]
DB paid around £130m in January for Chiltern Railways, which operates services from London to Birmingham and Aylesbury, after previously buying freight company EWS. It has half of the new service to Shropshire and Wrexham and 50% of Lorol, the above-ground former North London Line expanding to the east.

Executives made plain that the Chiltern acquisition was a springboard to bidding for more franchises when they become available, probably including the west coast mainline operated by Virgin. There's even the distant possibility of running ICE trains through the Channel tunnel in competition with Eurostar, but that would require huge investment in compatible traction, safety and security controls at German stations.

What is certain is that EWS, which already runs a pilot freight service from Wembley to Cologne, is the front-line force for an assault against SNCF in France's freight market. Axel Marschall, an executive vice-president at DB Schenker, the freight and logistics business, said the goal was to capture up to 25% of the French market. Through its holding in Spanish freight operator Transfesa, DB plans to dominate the north-south European axis from Britain — and Denmark/Sweden — to Spain.

We're witnessing a new front in the Franco-German battle for supremacy in Europe's rail network. SNCF, the leader in passenger services, collaborates with DB in running nine daily services between Paris and Frankfurt/Stuttgart and, through Thalys, between Cologne and Brussels/Amsterdam. But the pair, both members of Railteam, are more likely to end up as sparring partners, not least in Britain.[/highlight]


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## sotavento

Republica said:


> Firstly, I dont think that upgrades of existing lines will be cheaper - the WCML upgrade to 140mph was cut bacxk because it cost £8-10bn to get it up to 125mph.
> 
> Also, its not just about speed. Its capacity, the existing lines are full or close to it. With passengers expected to rise by 40% in the near future, we need new lines. The capacity of the old lines will then increase as the fast trains which use most time on the lines due to their speed will be gone.


That depends on how you analyse the actual british High Speed network:

CTRL1 can be divided into different sections:

channel Tunnel = 15km of conventional rail double track (the tunnel itself)
folkestone-Ashford = 20km quadruplication of the OLD route (yes ... simply quadrupled) ... adding 2 new HSR tracks to the existing ones
Ashford-Northfleet = 50km of HSR built alongside an existing motorway (not that expensive)
The thames tunnel = 3km?
TTT-Barking(?) = 12km of track quadruplication
Barking(?)-St.Pancras = 20km of tunneling (where most of the cost went?)



Looking back at the WCML upgrade program (with the same argumentation that was used upon the local HSR upgrade here in portugal) we clearly see that the gamble on Pendular trains was a faulse money saver ...

It would be better if 2 aditional tracks were added alongside the route (or on a more direct route) 

Due to the british "standards" that are made to 125mph the jump to 140mph or even to anything below 187mph/300kph is suposed to be considered nonsense

For an example we over here (portugal) made the jump from 140kph to 220kph in the current railways precisely because it was an enormous speed jump with lots of gains at minimal costs.

Brand NEW pure HSR are only considered when adding more tracks or just upgrading the old routes in not viable ... 

WCML south from Manchester/Liverpool/Bristol and the ECML should have 4 tracks (At least) ... and theres abundant space for upgrading.

And it's ridiculous (both there in the UK and everywhere else) that railways with 125mph speed limits still have stations with passing double track layouts and with no side platforms other than those on the main tracks. hno:


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## sotonsi

sotavento said:


> People easily neglect the fact that HS1 was only necessary due to the souteastern railways having an ultra-restrictive gauge. hno:


err, not entirely - capacity was a big issue (otherwise why not just make the railway a bigger gauge from the Maidstone area to Cheriton, where lines run side by side), as was having to have dual voltage, restricting stock.


sotavento said:


> A problem with building completely new HSR in the UK is precisely that everywhere that seems to be a good plasce to build one already has a double track railway that can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost.


err, upgraded at a fraction of the cost - did you see the cost of the WCML upgrades? Do you even understand the problem? You could, I guess, 4 track the Chiltern ML, however why follow the alignment through towns, why not avoid having to demolish stations and buildings when isn't necessary, and there's a shorter alignment without the noise, etc problems. Capacity is clearly needed, speed is a bit more optional. Upgrades will do nothing but cause delays for years and provide little benefit, especially considering the GWML example you give below.


> Padington-Reading = 55km = 4 tracks ... why are 2 of them not at least at 140mph/250kph ??? (actually the speed there is of 125mph)


signalling rules, mixed traffic (90mph and 100mph trains also run on the fasts.


> London-Bristol is only 190km ... well under the 1h travel time in a nonstop train ... or even with a stop at reading ... reported to be 1h21 currently


approaches to stations and stops and pad out time and you can easily make up a good 15-20 minutes. I don't think Paddington has full 200km/h (surely, as someone who would work with metric all the time, you'd know that there's no such thing as kph) until quite a way out, especially heading townbound. Add to that the slower trains that might hold stuff up and you have an answer.


> London-Swindon = 4 track 2 of wich could easily be put at "above" 125mph if desired


really? at the cost of a good couple of billion, even ignoring signalling, plus another load for electrification (£8 billion or so) as no diesel train does more than 125mph. Not to mention the loss of flexibility, the problems of Reading-London capacity on both fasts and slows and the fact that the benefits will certainly not justify the cost - it would be nearly as cheap to have a new 300kph line, doubling the difference in speed and freeing up a shed load of capacity between Reading and Paddington.


> an hourly service under the 1h travel time would be very competitive
> a couple of aditional services with some intermediate stops would also be competitive at the 1h travel time


LOL - do you have a clue? 
It's getting on for two hours by car - there's no competition for speed. Add to that half-hourly services via Bath, and half-hourly services to Wales (stopping at Bristol Parkway) and 1tph is a complete and utter joke!


> Pay the price to upgrade to 300kph ??? to gain some 10/20 minutes ???


almost cheaper to build a new line and certainly less hassle and more flexibility and capacity... Look at the WCML upgrades, think about the fact that it costs as much per mile to add a forth lane on a motorway as to build a parallel motorway. Stuff like closing the railway for weekends over the course of several years cause all sorts of problems and financial penalties. A new Western HSL would be done quicker. The thing is is that it's not really needed. For capacity reasons, I can see plans for a Reading-Heathrow (plug into HSL network there) line to give more capacity, with trains going on to Portsmouth, Southampton, Swansea and Bristol via Bath (maybe Plymouth and Penzance, though that would involve lots of work around Dawlish)


> London-Birmingham is operated with half hourly frequencies by two different companies ... one in the express 1h30 time and another in a regional 2h30 time.


Virgin will be 3tph very soon, and you've forgotten either Chiltern or London Midland. It's much more like 6 or 7 rather busy trains, with the problem of further up being busy and also further in needing more trains (Bedford will get at least 10tph to London at peaks in 7 years time, Milton Keynes looks set for about 6tph, despite being bigger) Any London-Birmingham HSL would be for capacity, as it's very limited at the moment.

In summary, you have no idea what you are talking about and have made no effort to read what has been said before.


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## sotavento

^^ Just let me say that YOUR problems in the UK are also OUR problems here in Portugal ... and we just took the easy way out ... and are to build a completely new HSR network due to the same problems that you have over there.

- bad planing that mixes HST and regional/freight traffic on the fast tracks 
- little upgrades that turn into full railway reconstruction
- major infraestructure renewal to acomodate a simple "tilt" that cost as much as the building of an adjoining track 
- etc , etc , etc 


About the HS1 ... welll ... if the tracks from Ashford continued to follow the old railway alignement the 1st little obstacle would be at Tonbridge some 40km away ... considering that the current layout exits Ashford tru a 600m tunnel , has half a dozen smaller ones and 35km due north has a 3km long tunnel ... and has a bridge at every 500m or so ... this of course without even getting 1km away from the old railway for most of its course. :cheers:


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## sotavento

sotonsi said:


> err, not entirely - capacity was a big issue (otherwise why not just make the railway a bigger gauge from the Maidstone area to Cheriton, where lines run side by side), as was having to have dual voltage, restricting stock.


^^ IT all cames in the package of the ultra restrictive gauge. hno:



> err, upgraded at a fraction of the cost - did you see the cost of the WCML upgrades? Do you even understand the problem? You could, I guess, 4 track the Chiltern ML, however why follow the alignment through towns, why not avoid having to demolish stations and buildings when isn't necessary, and there's a shorter alignment without the noise, etc problems. Capacity is clearly needed, speed is a bit more optional. Upgrades will do nothing but cause delays for years and provide little benefit, especially considering the GWML example you give below.


The HS1 is a bad example because it is one of those cases where a completely different railway in a completely different alignement is used to replace another railway that would not gain as much from having a HSR nearby. :cheers:

If the new HSL would follow the route to Waterloo there would be not enough gains as to justify it ... this considering the old route vs. new route aproach. 

In this chosen alignement it is indeed a great adiction to the existing network. 



> signalling rules, mixed traffic (90mph and 100mph trains also run on the fasts.


4 tracks , room to improvements on both fast and slow ... actualy it seems to be the easiest place to create an aditional HSL in the hearth of england.



> approaches to stations and stops and pad out time and you can easily make up a good 15-20 minutes. I don't think Paddington has full 200km/h


I considered the optimal timings using 2 out of the 4 tracks at speeds of 140mph (or above) ... it's a prime candidate



> (surely, as someone who would work with metric all the time, you'd know that there's no such thing as kph)


I just checked and I don't know why but halfway thu this evening i started to write kph after i corrected a km/h/mph in a random post somewhere ... must bee either the booze , too much booze or not enough booze. :lol:



> until quite a way out, especially heading townbound. Add to that the slower trains that might hold stuff up and you have an answer.
> really? at the cost of a good couple of billion, even ignoring signalling, plus another load for electrification (£8 billion or so) as no diesel train does more than 125mph. Not to mention the loss of flexibility, the problems of Reading-London capacity on both fasts and slows and the fact that the benefits will certainly not justify the cost - it would be nearly as cheap to have a new 300kph line, doubling the difference in speed and freeing up a shed load of capacity between Reading and Paddington.


Either you remove the need for capacity by not calling at intermediate stops or you remove the gains to traffic other than HST by not upgrading the route ... none seem to be of much gain in a "feeder" stile network such as the GWR.

London-Newbury
London-Oxford
London-Gloucester
London-Cn-Sodbury-Bristol
London-Bath-Bristol
London-Southampton(*)
London-Exeter 

^^ By themselves neither would justify a completely new route. hno:



> LOL - do you have a clue?
> It's getting on for two hours by car - there's no competition for speed. Add to that half-hourly services via Bath, and half-hourly services to Wales (stopping at Bristol Parkway) and 1tph is a complete and utter joke!


1tph DIRECT NONSTOP from Paddington to Bristol ... and much more than half hourly to any of the destinations named above. :lol:



> almost cheaper to build a new line and certainly less hassle and more flexibility and capacity... Look at the WCML upgrades, think about the fact that it costs as much per mile to add a forth lane on a motorway as to build a parallel motorway. Stuff like closing the railway for weekends over the course of several years cause all sorts of problems and financial penalties. A new Western HSL would be done quicker. The thing is is that it's not really needed. For capacity reasons, I can see plans for a Reading-Heathrow (plug into HSL network there) line to give more capacity, with trains going on to Portsmouth, Southampton, Swansea and Bristol via Bath (maybe Plymouth and Penzance, though that would involve lots of work around Dawlish)


London-Reading-Bristol = 4 tracks 125mph
London-Ascot-Reading-Newbury-bath-Bristol
London-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Bath-Bristol/Exeter
etc etc etc

^^ the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly. 

And the notion that _just adding another parallel railway_ will solve the problem seems to stop being a solution more than 100 years ago ... when they run out of places to build new ones in the UK.



> Virgin will be 3tph very soon, and you've forgotten either Chiltern or London Midland. It's much more like 6 or 7 rather busy trains, with the problem of further up being busy and also further in needing more trains (Bedford will get at least 10tph to London at peaks in 7 years time, Milton Keynes looks set for about 6tph, despite being bigger) Any London-Birmingham HSL would be for capacity, as it's very limited at the moment.


Trains run at 3 minutes intervals in most places ... that would mean 20 trains each direction on 2 tracks only ... WCML has how many tracks to spare for the rest ??? and the routes via Banbury Oxford and Kettering are deplected of throught services ... 



> In summary, you have no idea what you are talking about and have made no effort to read what has been said before.


:lol:

Considering only what I learned by looking around while I travelled over there I guarantee you that there is a lot of room to improvements on the current infraestructure alone ... let the building of new HSL for another century ... :lol:

Just found another lapse here ... 250km/h is not 140mph as I erroneously stated back there ... its 156mph


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## elfabyanos

..


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## elfabyanos

..


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## Slagathor

Hello all 

It's been a while since I lived in England (for about six months in 2002 - Loughborough, Leicestershire) and I have a couple of questions I was hoping you could answer.

1) Has the quality of rail travel in the UK improved? I remember there was a lot of talk in the media back then about the necessity to do something about the country's rail infrastructure. Has it happened yet? I remember the frequency and connectivity (being able to get to where you need to be via train) didn't strike me as particularly poor. The cost-quality (ride comfort) ratio however, did. Did it at least get cheaper? 

2) Why do all plans for a high speed network include two North-South links? One via the East coast and one via the West coast. It seems to me if all those plans keep failing to gather enough support to actually be carried out; wouldn't a single line alternative stand a better chance? If you were to use France's vision with spread out TGV stations per 'region' where you can transfer to a high-quality regional network - then how about one high speed line from London to Scotland with stops at St Pancras - Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle - Edinburgh (possible extention to Glasgow)?


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## elfabyanos

..


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## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> A problem with building completely new HSR in the UK is precisely that everywhere that seems to be a good plasce to build one already has a double track railway that can be upgraded at a fraction of the cost.


No, not at all. Not in the slightest. hno:

One of the main reasons, as I have just stated, is capacity increase.

Upgrades do not come at a fraction of the cost either, just look at the £8bn required to get a 13.6% linespeed increase on the WCML.



sotavento said:


> People easily neglect the fact that HS1 was only necessary due to the souteastern railways having an ultra-restrictive gauge. hno:


Even though HS1 opened a decade after the CTRL? Gauge was not a problem. eurostar ran on southeastern tracks, as does (still) all channel tunnel freight. I've told you this before as well.




sotavento said:


> About the HS1 ... welll ... if the tracks from Ashford continued to follow the old railway alignement the 1st little obstacle would be at Tonbridge some 40km away ... considering that the current layout exits Ashford tru a 600m tunnel , has half a dozen smaller ones and 35km due north has a 3km long tunnel ... and has a bridge at every 500m or so ... this of course without even getting 1km away from the old railway for most of its course. :cheers:


The problem is there is no space. Tonbridge station would have to be demolished. that line was built in the 1840s and there are lots of picturesque villages with listed cottages right next to the track. Its ano brainer. Add to that the existing tracks can not be upgraded because there is a train every 5 minutes in th erush hour between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks - its just not feasable.



sotavento said:


> Just let me say that YOUR problems in the UK are also OUR problems here in Portugal ... and we just took the easy way out ... and are to build a completely new HSR network due to the same problems that you have over there.


Didn't you just argue that the best thing for the UK to do was not to build HSR? Make your mind up.




sotavento said:


> London-Reading-Bristol = 4 tracks 125mph
> London-Ascot-Reading-Newbury-bath-Bristol
> London-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Bath-Bristol/Exeter
> etc etc etc
> 
> ^^ the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly.


You are so misinformed its funny.

2 tracks 125 mph. Slow lines typically 75 - 90 mph.

NOT 4 tracks Didcot to Swindon, mainly only 2, actually.

The capacity is not there. Are you factoring in freight?


----------



## Manchester Planner

Slagathor said:


> 1) Has the quality of rail travel in the UK improved? I remember there was a lot of talk in the media back then about the necessity to do something about the country's rail infrastructure. Has it happened yet? I remember the frequency and connectivity (being able to get to where you need to be via train) didn't strike me as particularly poor. The cost-quality (ride comfort) ratio however, did. Did it at least get cheaper?


Overall things are improving regarding the railways, though there is now the problem of capacity as the number of passengers and the amount of freight have both shot up in the past 5 years.

Ticket prices remain expensive and are nearly always rising above the rate of inflation. They can get away with that as the demand for rail travel is there. And there still needs to be much financial investment of course.


----------



## sotonsi

elfabyanos said:


> You are so misinformed its funny.


Indeed, using the via Ascot route as a main route to beyond Reading? Having trains going via Salisbury to Bristol... OK, both have been done in the last ten years - the former a diversion, the latter services dropped due to long journey times and lack of through routes.

I also love the idea of having Exeter-London services via Bristol - completly potty as a fast route, though not as potty as a via Kettering route to Birmingham. :lol:

And the complete ignorance of freight and heavy commuter workings on these lines, plus the completely rubbish assertion that there is no route to build another two track railway - there are several! It was indeed done in the past - the only problem being that they ended up as slow lines. However HSL wouldn't, and the classic lines tend to be 4 track anyway now.

It doesn't help that his English is so hard to deal with as he seems to be under the influence when writing (by his own admission).

In the GW corridor, I can only see electrification to Swansea/Bristol/Banbury/Bedwyn (because of Dawlish and because that has a decent lot of benefits). The plans for HSL in that corridor also only cover that area (and were a completely new line, with some interchange with the old line). I reckon HSL on that corridor is only worth it to give more capacity between London and Reading.


----------



## Republica

Slagathor said:


> Hello all
> 
> It's been a while since I lived in England (for about six months in 2002 - Loughborough, Leicestershire) and I have a couple of questions I was hoping you could answer.
> 
> 1) Has the quality of rail travel in the UK improved? I remember there was a lot of talk in the media back then about the necessity to do something about the country's rail infrastructure. Has it happened yet? I remember the frequency and connectivity (being able to get to where you need to be via train) didn't strike me as particularly poor. The cost-quality (ride comfort) ratio however, did. Did it at least get cheaper?


Its got much better. The only problem now is that non profit making routes dissapear and so are late night trains. They are geared towards profit making now so any public service thoughts are out the window. Some places dont have trains after 9pm - utterly useless. I cant get a train back up the ECML after 7pm from london sometimes. And local services tend to stop pretty early too. I think they should go til at least midnight everywhere. Ride comfort - well on some of the new trains its much improved. On others we need more capacity increases to stop the sardine can problem. Prices - they have apparently only gone up with inflation overall since privatisation. There are dirt cheap advance fairs, but anyone wanting to hop on or off whenever they like needs some serious cash.


----------



## elfabyanos

Indeed Sotonsi.

For anyone wishing to argue that there is plenty of capacity, and speaking from a misinformed perspective, Network Rail, the owners of the railway infrastructure in the UK, have loads of accessible documents going into very fine and studied details about every part of the country.

Business plans - yearly, every area.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4451.aspx
Great Western route http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...s/2008/Route 13 - Great Western Main Line.pdf
Wessex Routes http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...n/RoutePlans/2008/Route 4 - Wessex Routes.pdf
Kent business plan that includes a map of gauge, route availablility etc. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...sinessPlan/RoutePlans/2008/Route 1 - Kent.pdf

Route Utilisation Studies - more in depth, not all have been completed yet.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4449.aspx

Freight RUS - study into usage of freight on entire network. Useful guides about gauge in there too. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...tilisation strategies/freight/freight rus.pdf


----------



## hoosier

Republica said:


> Its got much better. The only problem now is that non profit making routes dissapear and so are late night trains. They are geared towards profit making now so any public service thoughts are out the window. Some places dont have trains after 9pm - utterly useless. I cant get a train back up the ECML after 7pm from london sometimes. And local services tend to stop pretty early too. I think they should go til at least midnight everywhere. Ride comfort - well on some of the new trains its much improved. On others we need more capacity increases to stop the sardine can problem. Prices - they have apparently only gone up with inflation overall since privatisation. There are dirt cheap advance fairs, but anyone wanting to hop on or off whenever they like needs some serious cash.


That's too bad and reveals the problem with for profit rail service- the public interest is replaced with the profit motive and rail services that would help the commuting public are scuttled because they don't make enough money.

Fucking bastards Thatcher and Major. I wish that bitch would just die already.


----------



## elfabyanos

Dying is a bit harsh. 

Yeah, Major and thatcher didn't do the railways many favours, but they did give us the channel tunnel, and if it wasn't for that we wouldn't have any HSR! Anyway, Labor have done their fair share of f'ing things up. They micro manage everything to the point where its not actually privatised in essence. The lack of late night trains is mainly down to department for transport requirements, and engineering works. Some local routes in the regions have suffered the worst sporadic services, but nearly everywhere else has seen better services pretty much.


----------



## sotavento

elfabyanos said:


> No, not at all. Not in the slightest. hno:
> 
> One of the main reasons, as I have just stated, is capacity increase.


the capacity doesn't increase if you just make a route on another alignement ... the majority of the traffic usually doesn't follow to the new alignement ... you just have another corridor with another traffic. 



> Upgrades do not come at a fraction of the cost either, just look at the £8bn required to get a 13.6% linespeed increase on the WCML.


thats precisely why it is a failure as an upgrade ... you need more than track improvements to have increased capacity ... speed upgrades actualy DECREASE capacity ... L.Norte and WCML both suffer now from that failed view. 

the faster the Intercity trains the fewer the total amount of trains you can squeeze in between them. :cheers: 



> Even though HS1 opened a decade after the CTRL? Gauge was not a problem. eurostar ran on southeastern tracks, as does (still) all channel tunnel freight. I've told you this before as well.


Loading Gauge ... 



> The problem is there is no space. Tonbridge station would have to be demolished. that line was built in the 1840s and there are lots of picturesque villages with listed cottages right next to the track. Its ano brainer. Add to that the existing tracks can not be upgraded because there is a train every 5 minutes in th erush hour between Tonbridge and London via Sevenoaks - its just not feasable.


There are more complicated works in HS1 than those that would be needed to bypass tonbridge

A southern london exit would take no more mileage that the 20km of tunnels of HS1 ... most of it could use the current alignements.

that leaves only some 25km between Farnborough(?) and Tonbridge to deal with (the rest of the route could have simply be quadrupled) ... a simpe 1500m tunnel under tonbridge would solve almost all the problems in that sector ... 

Compare it to the 3,2km tunnel neal rochester , the tunnel under the Thames and many other major engineering works on the HS1. 

Anyway ... what I just said is another good adition to the network if someone decides to build it ... but in the end HS1 also is a good route and that can't be denied. 



> Didn't you just argue that the best thing for the UK to do was not to build HSR? Make your mind up.


In my point of view the decision that was taken over here was a lowsy one ... they just decided half way to give up on one mistake and do another mistake instead. :lol:



> You are so misinformed its funny.
> 
> 2 tracks 125 mph. Slow lines typically 75 - 90 mph.


I just said 4 tracks and top speed on the corridor. 



> NOT 4 tracks Didcot to Swindon, mainly only 2, actually.
> 
> The capacity is not there. Are you factoring in freight?


Did you read my previous post ??? 



> the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly.
> 
> And the notion that just adding another parallel railway will solve the problem seems to stop being a solution more than 100 years ago ... when they run out of places to build new ones in the UK.


You have enough room to put aditional tracks in that particular section ...


----------



## sotavento

sotonsi said:


> Indeed, using the via Ascot route as a main route to beyond Reading? Having trains going via Salisbury to Bristol... OK, both have been done in the last ten years - the former a diversion, the latter services dropped due to long journey times and lack of through routes.





> London-Reading-Bristol = 4 tracks 125mph
> London-Ascot-Reading-Newbury-bath-Bristol
> London-Basingstoke-Salisbury-Bath-Bristol/Exeter
> etc etc etc
> 
> the capacity is there ... just need to use it properly.


Notice the difference:

London-Reading Bristol = 125mph 
the remaining are just alternative routes. 



> I also love the idea of having Exeter-London services via Bristol - completly potty as a fast route, though not as potty as a via Kettering route to Birmingham. :lol:


who ever spoke about a route to birmingham via Kettering ??? does the WCML only run to birmingham nowadays ???


I just said that the WCML has some nearby routes that tottaly lack trought services. hno:



> And the complete ignorance of freight and heavy commuter workings on these lines, plus the completely rubbish assertion that there is no route to build another two track railway - there are several! It was indeed done in the past - the only problem being that they ended up as slow lines. However HSL wouldn't, and the classic lines tend to be 4 track anyway now.


I can tell you that I'm well aware of the tons of freight and commuter on the premices ... you lack big time in capacity management in british rails. :bash: 



> It doesn't help that his English is so hard to deal with as he seems to be under the influence when writing (by his own admission).


How hard can it be??? 1/2 the people here on SSC can't even spell in english and you guys wan't me to speak in oxbridge ??? :nuts:



> In the GW corridor, I can only see electrification to Swansea/Bristol/Banbury/Bedwyn (because of Dawlish and because that has a decent lot of benefits). The plans for HSL in that corridor also only cover that area (and were a completely new line, with some interchange with the old line). I reckon HSL on that corridor is only worth it to give more capacity between London and Reading.


If you say so ...


----------



## Republica

He was meaning loading guage you tool. Eurostar is a HSR train. It went on the existing tracks, slower. (i see you just edited that bit out)

You quote people and reply with a line trying to justify you comment, but more often than not the comment doesnt do that, yet oyu seem to think it does.

A new line increases capacity. The WCML cost a lot and did increase capacity. It increased speeds by 25mph for 8bn. Old lines have level crossings and smaller guages, they are totally outdated and hence a lot of money to upgrade. Building a new track increases capacity much more than tacking on another two lines to an existing route. It also would result in faster trains.

Oh and as i have said before, your english is hard to comprehend that i dont think you even know what you are saying, you write in a fragmented form - i suspect you do this in portugese too.


----------



## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> the capacity doesn't increase if you just make a route on another alignement ... the majority of the traffic usually doesn't follow to the new alignement ... you just have another corridor with another traffic.


Not in any of the proposals we have made in this country. If you want to argue with this point you are arguing with Network Rail, read the PDFs I posted and you will see that NR wants new routes to increase capacity on the old ones. Stop arguing over this, you are misinformed.




> thats precisely why it is a failure as an upgrade ... you need more than track improvements to have increased capacity ... speed upgrades actualy DECREASE capacity ... L.Norte and WCML both suffer now from that failed view.


So what is your point?



> the faster the Intercity trains the fewer the total amount of trains you can squeeze in between them. :cheers:


I know. The wcml upgrade however does have more capcity because it included capacity improvements.





> Loading Gauge ...


Yes loading gauge, that is what I was talking about. Do you think I'm so stupid as to think you mean southeastern is a narrow gauge!? :rofl: Eurostar and channel freight can go along the classic lines via Tonbridge, via Redhill, via Sevenoaks, via Orpington, via Maidstone and even via Bat & Ball. You are so wrong its funny.



> There are more complicated works in HS1 than those that would be needed to bypass tonbridge
> 
> A southern london exit would take no more mileage that the 20km of tunnels of HS1 ... most of it could use the current alignements.
> 
> that leaves only some 25km between Farnborough(?) and Tonbridge to deal with (the rest of the route could have simply be quadrupled) ... a simpe 1500m tunnel under tonbridge would solve almost all the problems in that sector ...
> 
> Compare it to the 3,2km tunnel neal rochester , the tunnel under the Thames and many other major engineering works on the HS1.
> 
> Anyway ... what I just said is another good adition to the network if someone decides to build it ... but in the end HS1 also is a good route and that can't be denied.


So what are you going on about it for then? I actually don't understand your point here at all.



> In my point of view the decision that was taken over here was a lowsy one ... they just decided half way to give up on one mistake and do another mistake instead. :lol:


Whatever.



> I just said 4 tracks and top speed on the corridor.


Which makes no difference to the fact that there isn't the capacity. Again you are wrong.




> Did you read my previous post ???


What I could understand of it....



> You have enough room to put aditional tracks in that particular section ...


So we need to build more tracks? OK, so thats what was proposed. I'll leave it to the engineers to decide whether that should go next to the existing track or somewhere else.


----------



## elfabyanos

sotavento said:


> I can tell you that I'm well aware of the tons of freight and commuter on the premices ... you lack big time in capacity management in british rails. :bash:


OK, so we all have to suffer your nonsense because of your misinformed opinion of it do we? You've just gone on my ignore list. Go away.


----------



## elfabyanos

When Eurostar first started it used the classic lines, here's an old vid below. It used this route until 2003. This vid is from around the mid 90s. All Eurostars went from the Channel tunnel, to Ashford, then via Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Orpington and Bromley South, except two trains that coincided with the rush hour in the morning, these went from Ashford to Bromey via Maidstone East, Otford and Swanley and took a good 10 minutes longer because of it.

At Headcorn;





Channel tunnel freight train going through Maidstone East


----------



## sotavento

Yes .. .and each and every other main line radiationg out of london has 4 tracks ... so ... hno: 


The key point is that HS1 is actually:

- a cross-london tunnel of some 20km with two tracks and no intermediate stops ... 
-add another 12km od pure track doubling in an existing alignement ... 
- a 3km long tunnel under the thames
- a connection to existing south-thames railways 
- 50km along an existing motorway corridor to ashford
- 20km of more track doubling to the euro-tunnel entrance 

:dunno: 

Actually the HS1 never goes that far apart from one or two neighbouring railways ... in some cases it even runs alongside another one. :cheers:

Back to the discussion ... a 2 track HSR could only cope with 2x 20 trains per hour (something of the sort at best) if and only each and everyone travells at the same speeds ... start to add slow and/or stopping trains on the same tracks and the capacity goes down the drain .

But nonetheless yhst is a lot of trains per hour ... and since the UK is lacking in terms of highly dense single/packed corridor traffic (too many routes to get to everywere) it will never be a real problem.


And where do you get those 10 minutes from ??? acording tho th enumbers I have the Eurostar get the same treatment as any other TGV trainset ... 3 minutes well in the reach of TVM430. :dunno:


----------



## sotavento

Manchester Planner said:


> *yawn*


:lol:

"British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views"


Since there are no NEWS , INFO or Pics here is my view:


The biggest flaws in the british system (from the point of view of a continental) are:

- too long stretches without passing places ... a couple of stations with actual tracks/platforms NOT in the direct tracks now and then would be welcome 
- too many flat junctions ... never heard of flyovers in the land of railways in enbankments ??? 
- too little capacity increasing measures taken ... talking about lack of capacity where theres plenty of "Beeching" laying around in that same places sounds odd. 
- a general _feeling_ of "old" in a lot of places ... namely in some major interchange stations 
- a total lack of ATP ... wich is 1/2 of speed increases above the "usual" 125mph 



^^ Cheers and happy flamming trying to prove it's all wrong. :cheers:


----------



## Manchester Planner

I'm not the one flaming on this thread.

Really.. all this hot air re: what is and what is not HSR, etc. It's boring.


----------



## Republica

It gives me a headache just to see all those drniking smilies all over the page: 'unnecessary' ... puncuation, everywhere - etc.

Sotavento - do you not understand you have a bizarre and agressive writing style that antagonises others yet you are so arrogant to think its others who are 'flaming'.

Please just leave this thread alone. Please!


----------



## sarflonlad

Republica said:


> It gives me a headache just to see all those drniking smilies all over the page: 'unnecessary' ... puncuation, everywhere - etc.
> 
> Sotavento - do you not understand you have a bizarre and agressive writing style that antagonises others yet you are so arrogant to think its others who are 'flaming'.
> 
> Please just leave this thread alone. Please!


Well you have got to appreciate his attempts to break away from the plain transactional English everyone uses. Maybe a few more classes, and he'll get how to use irony, sarcasm and literary nuance appropriately.


----------



## sarflonlad

sotavento said:


> New lines in portugal are prepared for "as much as the train can go" ... or as we say in technical terms ... it's a straight line from here to the border ... so let the spanish deal with stopping the trains on their side. :lol:
> 
> Routes in completely flat and plain terrein being planed for some "unimpressive" 350km/h ... we are so un-ambitious here ... specially if they put some AGV (360km/h) on them . :cheers:


Funded for by the British Taxpayer of course 

Go Portugal!! Speed yourself in to a real first world country on the back of wealthier nations!


----------



## taikoo.city

sotavento said:


> And where do you get those 10 minutes from ??? acording tho th enumbers I have the Eurostar get the same treatment as any other TGV trainset ... 3 minutes well in the reach of TVM430. :dunno:


3 mins minimum headway is an actual figure of the DS-ATC system (Japanese Technology) for Taiwan High Speed Rail. The Tokaido Shinkansen has slightly longer headway of 5 mins, or 12 trains per hour (8 fast Nozomi + 2 semi-fast Hikari + 2 all stops Kodama). 10 mins for HS1 is something I got either off this forum or somewhere else which I don't remember, and the headway should already have taken the much slower Javelins (225km/h vs 300km/h of Eurostar, although with much higher acceleration than the latter) into consideration.


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> And where do you get those 10 minutes from ??? acording tho th enumbers I have the Eurostar get the same treatment as any other TGV trainset ... 3 minutes well in the reach of TVM430. :dunno:


It's not the signaling system that cannot meet 3 minute intervals, it's the trainsets themselves that can't meet the criteria.

I read that the Shinkansen needs 5 minute intervals for the trains to decelerate, stop one minute at station and, accelerate to commercial top speed again.
The Shinkansen can manage to obtain commercial top speed with 5Km lead way. On the otherhand it takes 20Km for the TGV to decelerate/accelerate to/from commercial top speed to/from zero meaning they will need more interval time in between train sets or the trailing train not making the stop at a station may collide with the leading train that just pulled out.


----------



## sotavento

^^ Source ???



The Eurostar has rheostatic braking , 4 disc brakes per axle on ALL non powered axles and all powered axles have wheel brakes.

It can slow down and stop from a speed of 300km/h to 0km/h in about 3,5km ... some 60 seconds from 300 to 0. :cheers:

:cheers:


----------



## Republica

shw me ur sauces plz


----------



## taikoo.city

sotavento said:


> ^^ Source ???
> The Eurostar has rheostatic braking , 4 disc brakes per axle on ALL non powered axles and all powered axles have wheel brakes.
> 
> It can slow down and stop from a speed of 300km/h to 0km/h in about 3,5km ... some 60 seconds from 300 to 0. :cheers:
> 
> :cheers:


Are you talking about emergency deceleration? How about the normal,/service deceleration?


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> ^^ Source ???
> 
> 
> 
> The Eurostar has rheostatic braking , 4 disc brakes per axle on ALL non powered axles and all powered axles have wheel brakes.
> 
> It can slow down and stop from a speed of 300km/h to 0km/h in about 3,5km ... some 60 seconds from 300 to 0. :cheers:
> 
> :cheers:


From this book, 鉄道工学ハンドブック

It states that the 12M type(500series)'s acceleration capability is 3.2Km/h/sec, while the L12TL type(don't know which series)'s acceleration capability 1.4Km/h/sec.
To obtain to speed, acceleration is powered by square so 12M will reach top speed 5.2 times faster then the L12TL. 
It also write about deceleration where an MMU has much better deceleration capabilities becuase of magnetic deceleration with better weight distribution allowing inertia to dissipate more quickly than a push/pull locomotive type.


----------



## sotavento

taikoo.city said:


> Are you talking about emergency deceleration? How about the normal,/service deceleration?


No ... just stating the standard(*) capabilities of a conventional TGV Eurostar trainset ...

And I only stated that because 5 minutes for a train to drop from 300km/h to a standstill let passengers /board/exit and regain its due course WITHOUT considering that other trains ould overrun it on a paralell track seems rather excessive. :dunno:

The following train just needs to be behing long enough as to allow it to make the deviation (by wich time it's going at about 160km/h) as to alow him to enter a stopping track ... 


... this because "stoping" TGV's usually only stop on side tracks... and the next train just needs to come behind him some 5 sectors behind ... being 1500m the usual lenght of section it is then capable of about (a little over) a train per minute and a half (5 sectors = 7500m ... at 300km/h a train travels 5000m per minute)... usually they run the LGV's at a much saffer 2 or 3 minute gap between trains so ... :dunno:

*) standard as in what the manuals indicate. 



Tri-ring said:


> From this book, 鉄道工学ハンドブック
> 
> It states that the 12M type(500series)'s acceleration capability is 3.2Km/h/sec, while the L12TL type(don't know which series)'s acceleration capability 1.4Km/h/sec.
> To obtain to speed, acceleration is powered by square so 12M will reach top speed 5.2 times faster then the L12TL.
> It also write about deceleration where an MMU has much better deceleration capabilities becuase of magnetic deceleration with better weight distribution allowing inertia to dissipate more quickly than a push/pull locomotive type.


Standard convention states that a TGV trainset can meet the targeted speeds of (using TVM430) both in normal acceleration and deceleration:

300, 270, 230, 170, 80 and 0

It takes one 1500m block/Sector to get from one targeted speed to the one above/under .... and they seem to manage the _increased headways_ (2 or 3 minutes) and having the routes _at capacity_ in a daily basis. hno:


----------



## sotavento

You never learn do you ??? Here's your usual response:












Republica said:


> shw me ur sauces plz


----------



## city_thing

^^ Man, I love HP Sauce on bacon & eggs. It's _the shit._

I just wish I could buy Sandwich Spread here in Aust.

Don't mind me.... continue.


----------



## RzgR Spijkenisse

Republica said:


> shw me ur sauces plz



Off-tOPIC: Pluuhhh, that is really disgusting. I feel ashamed that we Dutch have to make that sauce for you...

On topic: Does anyone know when they start to renovate London Euston. From all Terminals in London it is deffenitly not the most beautifull.


----------



## Republica

RzgR Spijkenisse said:


> Off-tOPIC: Pluuhhh, that is really disgusting. I feel ashamed that we Dutch have to make that sauce for you...


How can you say that! HP is excellent! At least we dont just plonk mayonaise on everything


----------



## city_thing

^^ Man, I love mayonnaise too. 

Regarding Euston station, I know there were some plans to renovate it (including the possibility of rebuilding the famous Euston Arch) but I think they're still just plans. I don't think a timeline has been put into place.

When does the refurb of King's Cross Station happen anyway?


----------



## taikoo.city

sotavento said:


> No ... just stating the standard(*) capabilities of a conventional TGV Eurostar trainset ...
> 
> And I only stated that because 5 minutes for a train to drop from 300km/h to a standstill let passengers /board/exit and regain its due course WITHOUT considering that other trains ould overrun it on a paralell track seems rather excessive. :dunno:
> 
> The following train just needs to be behing long enough as to allow it to make the deviation (by wich time it's going at about 160km/h) as to alow him to enter a stopping track ...
> 
> 
> ... this because "stoping" TGV's usually only stop on side tracks... and the next train just needs to come behind him some 5 sectors behind ... being 1500m the usual lenght of section it is then capable of about (a little over) a train per minute and a half (5 sectors = 7500m ... at 300km/h a train travels 5000m per minute)... usually they run the LGV's at a much saffer 2 or 3 minute gap between trains so ... :dunno:
> 
> *) standard as in what the manuals indicate.
> 
> 
> 
> Standard convention states that a TGV trainset can meet the targeted speeds of (using TVM430) both in normal acceleration and deceleration:
> 
> 300, 270, 230, 170, 80 and 0
> 
> It takes one 1500m block/Sector to get from one targeted speed to the one above/under .... and they seem to manage the _increased headways_ (2 or 3 minutes) and having the routes _at capacity_ in a daily basis. hno:


I didn't say Shinkansen is more superior but we have to realise that EMU is the way to go even for SNCF, hence the development of AGV.

TVM430 is completely manual IIRC, while DS-ATC controls the deceleration of the train when necessary. However it's too early to say which system is better since there has yet an EMU TGV trainset running on LGV tracks, at least officially (I know nothing about ICE but Class 395 seems to be the first EMU vehicle on LGV tracks with Shinkansen technology), and there will never be locomotives on the Japanese Shinkansen tracks.


----------



## sotavento

taikoo.city said:


> I didn't say Shinkansen is more superior but we have to realise that EMU is the way to go even for SNCF, hence the development of AGV.
> 
> TVM430 is completely manual IIRC, while DS-ATC controls the deceleration of the train when necessary. However it's too early to say which system is better since there has yet an EMU TGV trainset running on LGV tracks, at least officially (I know nothing about ICE but Class 395 seems to be the first EMU vehicle on LGV tracks with Shinkansen technology), and there will never be locomotives on the Japanese Shinkansen tracks.


Are you talking about "distributed power" ??? 


What is the difference between standard Shinkansen/ICE3 power distribution between bogies and the power distribution of a TGV trainset ???

A 400m long TGV trainset would have 8 to 12 motored axles along it's lenght. :dunno:

TGV SudEst has 6 out of 13 axles motored ... intermediate non powered jacobs bogies are much more effective than intermediate underframe hung motored axles. hno:

Just to get a picture of what we are talking about ... SNCF has some 480 TGV trainsets of various forms , sizes and technical specifications (some 50 more on order currently) ... these go from Thalys ,Eurostar and other special "foreign" signal/current specifications to the regular reseau/atlantique/duplex ... can you imagine regular regional services in the UK being run with 300km/h trainsets in the near future ??? hno:

If you don't count the Eurostar (too long) all other TGV's have roughly as many axles motored as any other High Speed trainset ... with an advantage ... they have biger and more powerfull motors installed (one of the disadvantages of the AGV will preciselly be the limited power of their motors) :cheers:

For example the O series Shinkansens form the 60's had only 185Kw per traction motor ... the 100 and 200 series not much more ... the 300 seriews have 300kw traction motors ... in their final years the O (run as 6 car trainsets) were seriously underpowered. 

And one actually neglects that:
the "old" 0,100,200 were 210/220km/h trainsets , some 200+66 trainsets (or even more)?? in the 60's , all widrawn
the 100 trainsets were only 220km/h capable , some 66 sets in late 80's ,widrawal and/or shortening to 4/6 cars lenght 
the 200 trainsets were only 210/240km/h , some 66 sets built in early 80's , much of them widrawn 
the 300 are 270km/h (same as old TGV sud est) , some 66 sets by late 90's , being widrawn
the 400 series are 240km/h , only 12 sets in the 90's 
the 500 sets are huge power hogs (all axles on the 16 cars are motored with 285kw traction motors and due to the huge cost) , only 9 were ever built 
the 700 series is a subsequent "low cost" variation (wich is only capable os 285km/h) , 91 sets
the 800 series only runs at 260km/h , 36 sets 
the N700 is 300km/h capable , can tilt by as much as 1º and has 305kw traction motors ... 56 tiny traction motors in a 16 car long consist for only limited 300km/h performance???? 95 sets in construction :bash: 
the E1 are double decker 240km/h trainsets , 6 built in the 90's
the E2 are 275km/h doubledecker trains , 47 sets built in late 90's to middle of 2005
the E3 are 275km/h sinde deck , 30 sets built in the late 90's
the E4 double deckers are 240km/h , 26 trainsets built in late 90's

hno:

How are we to compare that with the 225 TGV trainsets capable of 320km/h speeds , from wich 157 of them are duplex trainsets ??? 
Out of the remaining trains only a selected few are "old" un-upgraded 270km/h TGVSudest ... the remaining are all 300km/h capable. hno:

what diferentiates the AGV(or distributed power) from the TGV(or locomotive hauled) is moslty the principles wich led to the introduction of that particular trainsets into service.

TGV = came from Gas-turbine prototipes ... the ruling at that time prevented a "fast" train to have passengers in the 1st carriage ... nonetheless to call it a locomotive hauled train is a grave error ... its a lightweight, shared bogie , high powered super-fast emu. 
ICE1/2 /ETR500 = based on the concept of top-and-tail/push-pull DB 103 /Italian Alxxx locomotives (DB powerheads based on DB120 power) that push "conventional" roling stock in between ... inovation = 0 
ICE3 = conventional EMU based on regular coaching stock ... not much inovation there ... just a XIX century EMU with the raw poer to go as much as 330/350 km/h :dunno:
Shinkansen = to the japanese its "inovative" enough .. to european standards is just regular EMU from XIX (same as IC3) 
Talgo 350/130 = same as TGV trains ... regular locomotive motor heads and lightweight trainsets
FIAT Pendulino = distributed power on a lightweight aluminim tilting EMU 
BR IC225 / SJ X200 and others = tilting(or capable) and regular Push-Pull/Tn'T loco + coach rolling stock

Main advantages of TGV/Talgo stiled trains = more raw power concentrated on the locomotives ... lightweight consists
Main advantages of ICE /Acela/X200/ETR500/IC225 stilled trains = If you know of any please tell us :bash:
Main advantages of EMU stiled trains = dispensing with the powerheads we gain more living space for packing passengers 


The AGV is not a "conventional" EMU high speed train ... is a TGV consist turned EMU ... something like the "failed"/"abandoned" Talgo XXI ... they are in a category of their own. :cheers:

... it's viability is yet to be proved. 


On a sidenotice .. .the Javelin difers NOTHING from the standard 25kv50HzAC EMU's that run in the UK in tlhe last half a century(?) ... just a comuter stiled EMU capable of 225km/h on a 300km/h track ... if the discussion is about lack of capacity induced by missmanagement and lack of vision it's a clear example ... how many minutes each day will be axed in HS1 due to the "slow" trains mixed with eurostar ????? :dunno:


----------



## sotavento

city_thing said:


> ^^ Man, I love mayonnaise too.
> 
> Regarding Euston station, I know there were some plans to renovate it (including the possibility of rebuilding the famous Euston Arch) but I think they're still just plans. I don't think a timeline has been put into place.
> 
> When does the refurb of King's Cross Station happen anyway?



Pardon my french but ... Euston has a simple solution ... starts with DEMO and ends at ON ... :cheers:


----------



## PredyGr

sotavento said:


> ... intermediate non powered jacobs bogies are much more effective than intermediate underframe hung motored axles. hno:


 Could you explain that sentence?



sotavento said:


> If you don't count the Eurostar (too long) all other TGV's have roughly as many axles motored as any other High Speed trainset ... with an advantage ... they have biger and more powerfull motors installed (one of the disadvantages of the AGV will preciselly be the limited power of their motors) :cheers:


Reseau/Atlantique/Duplex/Thalys, all have only 4 motor bogies (8 powered axles). In comparison, Velaro has 16 motored axles, Series 700 E-sets has 24 motored axles.
Of course the number of motored axles means nothing by itself, also very important is the adhesive weight.


----------



## Tri-ring

The simplest analogy is comparing a 2 wheel drive with a 4 wheel drive.
Which has better acceleration?
4 Wheel of course because torque is distributed to all 4 wheel trying to pull the weight then two.
When broken down to simple high school physics statements like this;



> What is the difference between standard Shinkansen/ICE3 power distribution between bogies and the power distribution of a TGV trainset ???


Is pure nonsense.

Statements like this;


> On a sidenotice .. .the Javelin difers NOTHING from the standard 25kv50HzAC EMU's that run in the UK in tlhe last half a century(?) ... just a comuter stiled EMU capable of 225km/h on a 300km/h track ... if the discussion is about lack of capacity induced by missmanagement and lack of vision it's a clear example ... how many minutes each day will be axed in HS1 due to the "slow" trains mixed with eurostar ?????


Is really twisting the actual event that is occuring. There are stations along the way with short intervals and top speed is meaningless if it takes too much time to reach top speed.


I also really do not understand why number that have been produced have anything to do with performance.


----------



## andysimo123

sotavento said:


> :lol:
> 
> "British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views"
> 
> 
> Since there are no NEWS , INFO or Pics here is my view:


You just have to go looking for it. Most of it is normally bad press like this for example.... 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/28/national-express-rail-contract

but if you look abit harder you find things like this... http://news.opodo.co.uk/articles/2009-01-27/18994662-New-train.php 

There is abit of news which has been missed. That possible Heathrow hugh speed station and I've just found THIS!! One of Manchesters new trams Under Construction. It runs on rails so it counts.


----------



## serdar samanlı1

hoosier said:


> No one is forcing you to ride the train, but highways are congested and expanding them is not feasible.
> 
> If the UK undid the privatization of its railroads and invested more money in them the price would go down.
> 
> In the U.S. roads are heavily subsidized without question but every rail line is subject to intense scrutiny and cost/benefit analysis.[/QUOTE
> 
> Another problem of travelling by car is the risk of high accident rates. Also when you are travelling by train, you can relax while watching the landscape. In car, you have to lock your eyes to the road


----------



## wonwiin

Main advantage of the ICE3: You can see out of the frontwindow of the train as a passenger .


----------



## sotavento

PredyGr said:


> Could you explain that sentence?
> 
> 
> Reseau/Atlantique/Duplex/Thalys, all have only 4 motor bogies (8 powered axles). In comparison, Velaro has 16 motored axles, Series 700 E-sets has 24 motored axles.
> Of course the number of motored axles means nothing by itself, also very important is the adhesive weight.


Not quite right:

ICE1 = 357m long , 280km/h , 8 out of 56 axles motored , 9600Kw/56 = 171kw per axle (traction suported on 8 axles)
- seriously underpowered when the consist has 14 intermediate cars

ICE3 = 200m long , 330km/h ,16 out of 32 axles motored (1 out of 2 coaches motored , go see the specs for yourselves) , 8000KW/32 = 250KW per axle (traction suported on 16 axles) <<< ICE3 fro mDB only reach 320km/h in french LGV's ... limited to 300km/h domestically
- 16000KW in a 400m consist

0-Series = 401m Long , 220km/h , 64 axles motored at 185KW each , 11,84MW

N700 = 405m/205m (16/8 cars) , 300km/h , 64/32 xles motored , 17MW/8500KW , 305KW per axle

TGV Sud-Est = _old_ 270km/h , 6400KW 

TGV Reseau = 200m long , 300km/h , 8 out of 26 axles motored , 8800KW , 338.6KW per axle
- 17600KW in a 400m consist

TGV POS = 200m long , 320km/h , 8 out of 26 axles motored , 9600KW , 369KW per axle
- total 19200KW in a 400m long consist ... 

TGV Duplex = 200m long , 320km/h , 8 out of 26 axles motored , 8800KW , 369KW per axle 
- total 17600KW in a 400m consist ... 


The seemingly impressive spec numbers of the N700 are trashed to pieces when reality starts to kick in (or not quite that much trashing) ... TGV concept by design is much more evolved in technical terms than the N700/ICE3. 



Tri-ring said:


> The simplest analogy is comparing a 2 wheel drive with a 4 wheel drive.
> Which has better acceleration?
> 4 Wheel of course because torque is distributed to all 4 wheel trying to pull the weight then two.
> When broken down to simple high school physics statements like this;
> 
> Is pure nonsense.
> 
> Statements like this;
> 
> 
> Is really twisting the actual event that is occuring. There are stations along the way with short intervals and top speed is meaningless if it takes too much time to reach top speed.
> 
> 
> I also really do not understand why number that have been produced have anything to do with performance.


It's torque and adhesion wheel/rail that does the miracles in acceleration ...

If you want to compare 4-wheelers to 2 wheelers you can only do so when comparing the Shinkansen with the ICE3 ... 

When you compare the TGV with the ICE3/Shinkansen you need to compare the entire concepts ... no middle term in comparing them

a 400m long TGV would weight as much as 766 tonnes (16/52 axles motored) .... a similarly long ICE3 would weight 820/860 tonnes (32/64 axles motored) ... a N700 weights 715 tonnes (56/64 axles motored)

Some considerations are in order:

ICE3 = too heavy , light axleload , 1/2 the axles motored , a little underpowered (compared to the other too)

TGV = light , medium/high axleload , 1/3 axles motored , high powered

N700 = light , ligh axleload , 9/10 axles motored , high powered 

Choose what you prefer ... hno:


----------



## sotavento

andysimo123 said:


> You just have to go looking for it. Most of it is normally bad press like this for example....
> 
> ...
> 
> but if you look abit harder you find things like this...
> 
> There is abit of news which has been missed. That possible Heathrow hugh speed station and I've just found THIS!! One of Manchesters new trams Under Construction. It runs on rails so it counts.


I was thinking more about something like this:



> Balfour, Carillion, Morrison chase £130m Glasgow Airport rail link
> 12:18 27 Jan 2009
> By Brian Warner
> 
> 
> Seven major players are on track to pitch for the key element of the flagship Glasgow Airport Rail Link project, worth between £90m and £130m.
> 
> Three of the contestants have got together to bid under the banner of BMV (Balfour Beatty / Morgan Est / Vinci).
> 
> Irish firm Roadbridge will price the job in joint venture with John Sisk.
> 
> The remaining two contractors, Morrison Construction and Carillion, will pitch as lone raiders.
> 
> It is understood that Skanska also looked at the project, but decided against tendering for it.
> 
> The tender competition is due to kick off in spring, which means that the rail link is set to be operational early in 2014.
> 
> The winner of the contest will build the St James Spur - the main 2 km-long branch line viaduct stretching across the M8 to the new airport station.
> 
> The main rail link uses the existing line between Glasgow Central and Paisley Gilmour Street, with track upgrade work from Shields Junction to Arkleston Junction to reinstate a third track.
> 
> Transport Scotland took over the project last summer and following pre-tender meetings with contractors, certain elements of the main contract will now be bid separately to reduce the level of cost risks on the scheme.


Source: http://www.contractjournal.com/Arti...son-chase-130m-glasgow-airport-rail-link.html

Or even like this:



> Network Rail chooses 7 for £800m track enhancements framework
> 
> 10:40 21 Jan 2009
> By Will Mann
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Network Rail has announced the names of seven contractors who will form its £800m track enhancement framework - and warned that it wanted more value for money from its track renewals programme.
> 
> The seven contractors are:
> Amey Colas
> Babcock Rail
> Balfour Beatty
> Jarvis
> Carillion
> Grant Rail
> Trackwork
> 
> The first four of these firms are existing NR track renewals contractors. The work available includes line-speed and junction improvements and work on big projects such as Thameslink and Reading.
> 
> Meanwhile, NR has said it wants more out of its track renewals contractors during the next five-year period, when £4bn will be invested.
> 
> NR said: "Total outputs for the five years will remain as previously planned although adjustment in phasing in the early part of the period will result in less volume of track renewals in the first year to allow time for new, more efficient ways of working to take effect, delivering the value for money needed to meet tough ORR output targets."


Source: http://www.contractjournal.com/Arti...-7-for-800m-track-enhancements-framework.html

And Heatrow:



> £1.5bn Heathrow East terminal delayed
> 
> 12:40 20 Jan 2009
> By Grant Prior
> 
> 
> BAA has confirmed that the construction schedule on its £1.5bn Heathrow East project has slipped until the end of this year.
> 
> The news came as the government gave its backing to ambitious plans to build a third runway and sixth terminal at the airport worth up to £7.6bn.
> 
> The airports operator confirmed the concerns of contractors, first revealed in CJ last summer, that delays were hitting the Heathrow East scheme.
> 
> A BAA spokeswoman said that full construction work would not start until the end of 2009.
> 
> She added: "Enabling works are going on at the moment and we are moving as fast as we can."
> 
> The job was originally scheduled to start in late 2008 and to be ready in time for the 2012 Olympics.
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> But it has been hampered by the T5 opening fiasco and funding problems.
> 
> Industry experts believe BAA could struggle to finance the new runway and terminal plans, which are due to get underway from 2015 and create 60,000 construction jobs.
> 
> The overall Heathrow expansion project announced last week is expected to increase the airport's capacity by 50%.
> 
> Alongside the new Heathrow proposals, Secretary of State for Transport Geoff Hoon announced plans to improve the high-speed rail network linking the airport with London and the Midlands.
> 
> BAA welcomed the new plans, but described the timetable for a completed third runway and sixth terminal by 2020 as "ambitious".
> 
> One contractor said: "The bottom line is that BAA is struggling to raise funds. That has had an impact on Heathrow East and will be a decisive factor in any future plans.
> 
> "It's all very well talking about this, but you need the money in place to get it started."


Nothing that we didn't know already of course ... but you guys could be posting some news now and then. :lol:


----------



## sotavento

> Network Rail tenders for Crossrail delivery partner
> 13:39 12 Jan 2009
> By Neil Gerrard
> 
> 
> Network Rail has announced it is tendering for a delivery partner to oversee its £3bn programme of work on Crossrail.
> 
> Robbie Burns, Network Rail’s major programme director, Crossrail, said: “This tender is an important first step towards delivering Crossrail and the improvements at Reading. We are looking for an organisation that has the key skills to complement our experienced in-house team effectively.”
> 
> Network Rail is responsible for all the design, development and delivery of Crossrail works outside the central tunnel, including:
> Electrifying the western part of the route, including substantial re-signalling along the whole of the route
> Rebuilding at Paddington station, including a reworking of platform and interchange between the new Crossrail station and mainline platforms
> Station rebuilds including Abbey Wood, Ilford, Romford and Ealing Broadway
> Junction remodelling, including an airport junction flyover to Heathrow
> Bridge rebuilds
> Platform extensions at over 20 stations along the route
> 
> The delivery partner will also oversee the progression of plans for a new grade separated junction to the west of Reading and more platforms at the station.


:cheers:


----------



## city_thing

Is anyone else expecting huge cost blow-outs during the construction of Crossrail?










It is a beautiful concept though...


----------



## taikoo.city

sotavento said:


> Some considerations are in order:
> 
> ICE3 = too heavy , light axleload , 1/2 the axles motored , a little underpowered (compared to the other too)
> 
> TGV = light , medium/high axleload , 1/3 axles motored , high powered
> 
> N700 = light , ligh axleload , 9/10 axles motored , high powered
> 
> Choose what you prefer ... hno:


Talking about technical possibilities is completely pointless when we are only comparing the acceleration and deceleration of EXISTING trainsets. It is obvious that not even Pendos have the acceleration matching N700, I'm not sure if Bombardier Regina/Zefiro can come close to that figure, besides, I'm really looking forward to see high speed EMUs being built in Derby...(which is a different story)


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> It's torque and adhesion wheel/rail that does the miracles in acceleration ...
> 
> If you want to compare 4-wheelers to 2 wheelers you can only do so when comparing the Shinkansen with the ICE3 ...
> 
> When you compare the TGV with the ICE3/Shinkansen you need to compare the entire concepts ... no middle term in comparing them
> 
> a 400m long TGV would weight as much as 766 tonnes (16/52 axles motored) .... a similarly long ICE3 would weight 820/860 tonnes (32/64 axles motored) ... a N700 weights 715 tonnes (56/64 axles motored)
> 
> Some considerations are in order:
> 
> ICE3 = too heavy , light axleload , 1/2 the axles motored , a little underpowered (compared to the other too)
> 
> TGV = light , medium/high axleload , 1/3 axles motored , high powered
> 
> N700 = light , ligh axleload , 9/10 axles motored , high powered
> 
> Choose what you prefer ... hno:


Ahh, I don't think you even understand what your talking about.
4 wheel drives vs 2 wheel drives (2axle powered vs1 axle powered) even if you have the same weight and same engine, the 2 axle drive will always be faster in acceleration because with the 1 axle drive system the second trailing axle acts as resistance.
Second, power distribution for 4 wheel drive divides the torque between the axles so there is less loss in traction between wheel and track so the driver can throttle up faster while the 2 wheel drive system needs to be more careful or it starts a wheel spin.
Again simple high school science or in this basic automobile knowledge.
The push/pull locomotive simply can not compete against an EMU in terms of acceleration/deceleration rate. 

Here is another interesting comment I found on Wiki that may explain the reason why intervals are longer for Euro star.



> Allowance for accurate performance calculations for timetabling purposes - In a locomotive - hauled train, if number of cars is increased in order to meet the demand, acceleration and braking performance drops. This calls for the necessity that, the performance calculations are to be done taking the heaviest train composition into account.


----------



## TWK90

http://www.jbce.org/files/hitachipresentation.pdf

Shinkansen series 0 : 972 ton

Shinkansen series 100 : 925 ton

Shinkansen series 300 : 711 ton

Shinkansen series 700 : 708 ton

Shinkansen series N700 : 700 ton


----------



## davsot

great pics on the first page!


----------



## 33Hz

I think Brown's support has gone unnoticed by the national press:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/breaking-edinburgh-news/Brown-vows-to-move-ahead.4920064.jp


----------



## taikoo.city

Tri-ring said:


> Ahh, I don't think you even understand what your talking about.
> 4 wheel drives vs 2 wheel drives (2axle powered vs1 axle powered) even if you have the same weight and same engine, the 2 axle drive will always be faster in acceleration because with the 1 axle drive system the second trailing axle acts as resistance.
> Second, power distribution for 4 wheel drive divides the torque between the axles so there is less loss in traction between wheel and track so the driver can throttle up faster while the 2 wheel drive system needs to be more careful or it starts a wheel spin.
> Again simple high school science or in this basic automobile knowledge.
> The push/pull locomotive simply can not compete against an EMU in terms of acceleration/deceleration rate.
> 
> Here is another interesting comment I found on Wiki that may explain the reason why intervals are longer for Euro star.


Because of your track record I can't say I'm on either your or his side. This is simply a TGV fanboy vs Shinkansen fanboy argument in which both of you seem to have some valid points but they are simply opposite perspectives/opinions of the same issue. It's like arguing about the truth of Christian faith amongst different denominations in which some theories or opinions actually contradict with each other, so whichever side is right, the other side must be wrong. All I have to say is that it is impossible to imagine an engine/motor from a different carriage to drive the axles on a different carriage, unless it is actually a generator which provides electricity for the motors of the axles on that other carriage.


----------



## Tri-ring

taikoo.city said:


> Because of your track record I can't say I'm on either your or his side. This is simply a TGV fanboy vs Shinkansen fanboy argument in which both of you seem to have some valid points but they are simply opposite perspectives/opinions of the same issue. It's like arguing about the truth of Christian faith amongst different denominations in which some theories or opinions actually contradict with each other, so whichever side is right, the other side must be wrong. All I have to say is that it is impossible to imagine an engine/motor from a different carriage to drive the axles on a different carriage, unless it is actually a generator which provides electricity for the motors of the axles on that other carriage.


You'll have to clarify that one since my analogy is about cars with a drive shaft. I am just saying that if their are two sets of identical trainsets in terms of weight, overall power output, etc and the only difference being one being EMU and the other being Push pull then the EMU will alwas have faster acceleration/deceleration rate.(In fact even if theEMU is slightly heavier and less powerful there is a very good chance that the EMU will be faster in terms of acceleration/deceleration rate) 

As for EMU vs pushpull locomotives or any other comparitive analysis for that matter they'll always have both pros and cons.
For example, EMUs are more sophisticated in design with more parts so maitenace takes more time and are costly.
Locomotives are less costly per train set than EMUs for the same reason.
Locomotive will achive faster top speed than EMU with same overall power outage due to motor resistance.
Locomotives have more flexibility and can be substituted for small locomotives where the gradients of the route become steeper and more power is needed. Also, different types of passenger cars (such as reclining-seats, compartment cars, couchettes, sleepers, restaurant cars, buffet cars etc.) can be easily added to or removed from a locomotive hauled train. However, it is not so easy for a multiple unit since individual cars can be attached or detached only in a maintenance facility. This also allows a loco - hauled train to be flexible in terms of number of cars. Cars can be removed or added one by one, but in multiple units two or more units have to be coupled. This is not so flexible.
Obsolescence cycles - Separating the motive power from the payload-carrying cars means that either can be replaced when obsolete without affecting the other.

You just need to know what are the advantages and disadvatages.


----------



## sotavento

Tri-ring said:


> Ahh, I don't think you even understand what your talking about.
> 4 wheel drives vs 2 wheel drives (2axle powered vs1 axle powered) even if you have the same weight and same engine, the 2 axle drive will always be faster in acceleration because with the 1 axle drive system the second trailing axle acts as resistance.
> Second, power distribution for 4 wheel drive divides the torque between the axles so there is less loss in traction between wheel and track so the driver can throttle up faster while the 2 wheel drive system needs to be more careful or it starts a wheel spin.
> Again simple high school science or in this basic automobile knowledge.
> The push/pull locomotive simply can not compete against an EMU in terms of acceleration/deceleration rate.
> 
> Here is another interesting comment I found on Wiki that may explain the reason why intervals are longer for Euro star.


hno:


You are completely WRONG ... 


If for you a 200m long TGV trainset with 8 motored axles and 18 non-powered axles is a "push-pull/locomotive" and a ICE3 with the same 200m ,100tonnes more and 16 +16 powered/unpowered axles is an EM ... who AM I to say no to blind people ???


Your comparison between 2 vs 4 wheel drives is absurd.


Comparing a 200hp articulated truck (this would be the TGV) with let's say a pair of articulated 4-wheel drive 100hp Jeeps connected toguether ... 


... Do you seriously believe that the tiny motors on the later would be more capable of acelerating the veicle than the BIG motors on the 1st ??? hno:

Railway Reality proves otherwise ... a similarly rated (in terms of top speed) SMALL motor will be much more difficult to get to higher speeds than a bigger motor ...and remember ... you are not comparing any similarly powered veichles locomotive hauled with any 100% powered EMU's

You are comparing a 8800KW EMU (namely the TGV 1100KW per motored axle) with similarly powered EMU's of 8000KW (ICE3 500KW per motored axle) and a 8540KW EMU (N70 305KW per motored axle) ....


... and ain't railways all about _minimizing_ atrition ??? To compare any train with simple 2 vs. 1 wheel drives would be a grave error ... :bash:


And remember ... NEVER ever compare the Eurostar performance with that of a standard TGV set ....


----------



## sotavento

taikoo.city said:


> Because of your track record I can't say I'm on either your or his side. This is simply a TGV fanboy vs Shinkansen fanboy argument in which both of you seem to have some valid points but they are simply opposite perspectives/opinions of the same issue. It's like arguing about the truth of Christian faith amongst different denominations in which some theories or opinions actually contradict with each other, so whichever side is right, the other side must be wrong. All I have to say is that it is impossible to imagine an engine/motor from a different carriage to drive the axles on a different carriage, unless it is actually a generator which provides electricity for the motors of the axles on that other carriage.


Who's a TGV fanboy here ??? :bash:


This is simply a case of pure high school phisics (in his words) ... the bigger the engine vs. the more axles power as you can are two different scales on their own chart ... you just need to find a sweetspot between both of them and see where you get the best results ... 



Tri-ring said:


> You'll have to clarify that one since my analogy is about cars with a drive shaft. I am just saying that if their are two sets of identical trainsets in terms of weight, overall power output, etc and the only difference being one being EMU and the other being Push pull then the EMU will alwas have faster acceleration/deceleration rate.(In fact even if theEMU is slightly heavier and less powerful there is a very good chance that the EMU will be faster in terms of acceleration/deceleration rate)
> 
> As for EMU vs pushpull locomotives or any other comparitive analysis for that matter they'll always have both pros and cons.
> For example, EMUs are more sophisticated in design with more parts so maitenace takes more time and are costly.
> Locomotives are less costly per train set than EMUs for the same reason.
> Locomotive will achive faster top speed than EMU with same overall power outage due to motor resistance.
> Locomotives have more flexibility and can be substituted for small locomotives where the gradients of the route become steeper and more power is needed. Also, different types of passenger cars (such as reclining-seats, compartment cars, couchettes, sleepers, restaurant cars, buffet cars etc.) can be easily added to or removed from a locomotive hauled train. However, it is not so easy for a multiple unit since individual cars can be attached or detached only in a maintenance facility. This also allows a loco - hauled train to be flexible in terms of number of cars. Cars can be removed or added one by one, but in multiple units two or more units have to be coupled. This is not so flexible.
> Obsolescence cycles - Separating the motive power from the payload-carrying cars means that either can be replaced when obsolete without affecting the other.
> 
> You just need to know what are the advantages and disadvatages.


that's the basic point in wich your theories fail to the ground ... you are not talking about "_two sets of identical trainsets in terms of weight, overall power output, etc and the only difference being one being EMU and the other being Push pull then the EMU will alwas have faster acceleration/deceleration rate"_ ... you are talking about one EMU with 1/3rd high powered axles (1100KW) , one EMU with 1/2 small powered axles (500KW) with MORE axles total and another EMU with small powered axles (305KW)

Or you have the small motors revving upp to greater rpm or you need a greater relation in the transmission ... so in either case you get a tiny motor trying its hardest to do the same task than a bigger motor is handling more easily in the other train ... it's all about torque motor-axle and nothing about atrition wheel-rail here. hno:

How do you even start to explain why in reality the TGV has better acceleration than the ICE3 ???


----------



## Jaeger

A Couple of UK Airport/Rail Connection pics . 

The Gatwick Express (London Victoria Station to Gatwick Airport)




























The Heathrow Express (London Paddington to Heathrow Airport)




























Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly Station




























The New Glasgow Airport Rail Connection due for completion in 2010

http://flyglasgow.net/airportexpansion.html










New Edinburgh Airport Rail Connection due for Completion in 2011

http://www.edinburgharchitecture.co.uk/edinburgh_airport_rail_link.htm










A couple of light rail links to UK Airports -

Birmingham International Airport (UK) has a light rail link between the Airport and the nearby rail station.



















The City of London Airport near Canary Wharf is now conected to Central London via the Docklands Light Railway.














































A couple of other UK Airport Links

Newcastle Airport Metro Service connects with the Cities Central Station



















Couple of pics of Stansted Express

Liverpool Street Station (London) to Stansted Airport (Essex) -





































Birmingham New Street Station to Stansted Airport Services -




























Luton Airport Parkway Station










Train from Luton Parkway through central London terminating at London Bridge Station










Southampton Airport Parkway Station connecting with mainline trains between Southampton and London Waterloo Station.


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> hno:
> 
> 
> You are completely WRONG ...
> 
> 
> If for you a 200m long TGV trainset with 8 motored axles and 18 non-powered axles is a "push-pull/locomotive" and a ICE3 with the same 200m ,100tonnes more and 16 +16 powered/unpowered axles is an EM ... who AM I to say no to blind people ???
> 
> 
> Your comparison between 2 vs 4 wheel drives is absurd.
> 
> 
> Comparing a 200hp articulated truck (this would be the TGV) with let's say a pair of articulated 4-wheel drive 100hp Jeeps connected toguether ...
> 
> 
> ... Do you seriously believe that the tiny motors on the later would be more capable of acelerating the veicle than the BIG motors on the 1st ??? hno:
> 
> Railway Reality proves otherwise ... a similarly rated (in terms of top speed) SMALL motor will be much more difficult to get to higher speeds than a bigger motor ...and remember ... you are not comparing any similarly powered veichles locomotive hauled with any 100% powered EMU's
> 
> You are comparing a 8800KW EMU (namely the TGV 1100KW per motored axle) with similarly powered EMU's of 8000KW (ICE3 500KW per motored axle) and a 8540KW EMU (N70 305KW per motored axle) ....
> 
> 
> ... and ain't railways all about _minimizing_ atrition ??? To compare any train with simple 2 vs. 1 wheel drives would be a grave error ... :bash:
> 
> 
> And remember ... NEVER ever compare the Eurostar performance with that of a standard TGV set ....



Give it a break.hno:
The locomotive has two boogies with two axles per boogie amounting to four powered axles per loco.Since TGV is a push-pull it's eight in all. 
Calling TGV an EMU is completely absurd.:nuts:

My anology of 2 wheel drive vs 4 wheel drive is about powered axle vs non-powered(trailing) axles. 
Bigger motors do generate more torque but it is worthless if it is not transmitted to the tracks properly. Steel against steel does not have much traction so if you apply too much torque too quickly it starts a wheel spin. The only way to stop a wheel spin is reduce power so the wheels regain traction thus the train starts moving ahead. 
Large axle load means stress to the motors making the power band narrower so again throttling becomes critical that is why push/pull needs a long lead way to obtain top speed, meaning slower acceleration/deceleration rate. 
With EMUs power is more evenly dispersed making the axle load lower reducing stress creating a wider power band.

It's all high school physics, I suggest you read it more.

=Edit=
I also did a simple power/weight ratio per powered axle calculation based on the information you provided.


> ICE3 = 200m long , 330km/h ,16 out of 32 axles motored (1 out of 2 coaches motored , go see the specs for yourselves) , 8000KW/32 = 250KW per axle (traction suported on 16 axles)
> 
> TGV POS = 200m long , 320km/h , 8 out of 26 axles motored , 9600KW , 369KW per axle
> 
> a 400m long TGV would weight as much as 766 tonnes (16/52 axles motored) .... a similarly long ICE3 would weight 820/860 tonnes (32/64 axles motored)


=Re-edited to reflex above info.=

Weight	Power per axle Number of powered axle Load per powered axle Power/weight ratio
ICE3 410 500 16 25.625 0.051 
TGV POS	383 1100 8 47.875 0.044 
N700 357.5 305 32 11.171875 0.037 

With 47tonnes per powered axle, the power band will be very narrow compared to the other two.


----------



## serdar samanlı1

Are all British passenger trains MUs or are there any loco-hauled trains?


----------



## uk-highspeed

serdar samanlı;31576104 said:


> Are all British passenger trains MUs or are there any loco-hauled trains?


Not all. The Class 91 is probably the 'best' loco around for passenger services.

Class 91 Wikipedia Page


----------



## serdar samanlı1

Does good-old British Rail still exist or is it has ben totally liquidated? Didi railroaders' unions and leftist intellectuals show any resistance againts this?


----------



## andysimo123

serdar samanlı;31718794 said:


> Does good-old British Rail still exist or is it has ben totally liquidated? Didi railroaders' unions and leftist intellectuals show any resistance againts this?


Nope British Rail was Privatised in the 1990s. Railtrack replaced that but now we have a company called Network rail which owns most of the infrastructure railway tracks, signals, tunnels, bridges, level crossings and stations. 

Other companies own the rolling stock and run most of the stations.


----------



## Manchester Planner

Well, British Rail DOES still exist, but only to look after some assets which are not used by the operating railway network (former rail yards, disused tunnels, viaducts and other structures) as well as matters relating to pensions, heritage and so. They have over the years sold much of their land for other development, though will likely retain legacies such as tunnels.

http://www.brb.gov.uk

However as andysimo123 says, the network is now in the hands of Network Rail, which is to all intents and purposes a public body. (The short lived Railtrack, which was a complete failure, was a private, profit-making body with shareholders etc.)


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## serdar samanlı1

Does anybody know why MUs are so common in Britain? The majority of trains in continental Europe are loco-hauled.


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## Republica

I'm not sure, maybe its due to the short nature of a lot of rail journies in the UK and the fact that MU's are faster at accelerating. Maybe something to do with loading guage? Are they cheaper?


----------



## Songoten2554

i think it has to do with a little of everything.

i don't know if anybody wants to correct me on this but what i have seen and learned about the british rail system which is interesting as well, is that yeah most of the journeys people make are short journeys of course there are long journeys but the majority is short trips.

also the fact that MU's are faster then loco hauled trains and also are able to be ready faster then loco hauled.

but also about the loading guage hmm can someone help us out here with this?

also great pictures of the Airport Rail links in the UK photos they are really great and high quality.

also a question about the gatwick express does the trains looks like that color or are they green now because of southern?


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## Manchester Planner

The main reason why multiple units are used over loco-hauled trains is for ease of use - no running round of the engine at the end of the journey/when running into and out of a station. This also means a simplified track layout at most stations and better use of track in busy stations for stabling trains, rather than having track free for use for running locos round carriages.

In fact, after decades of track simplification in the country, where most stations no longer have run-round facilities, or are too busy for locos to run-round, the few remaining loco hauled services often have a loco on either end of the train (or a loco on one end and a driving van trailer (DVT) on the other end). The rear loco is "dead" and the driver simply gets out and starts up the other loco when the train departs in the other direction.

Here's an example: two class 57 locos (one on either end of the train) at Shrewsbury, on Arriva's Cardiff-Holyhead evening express.

http://daviddawson.fotopic.net/p55300046.html


----------



## flierfy

Manchester Planner said:


> The main reason why multiple units are used over loco-hauled trains is for ease of use - no running round of the engine at the end of the journey/when running into and out of a station. This also means a simplified track layout at most stations and better use of track in busy stations for stabling trains, rather than having track free for use for running locos round carriages.


You have never heard of push-pull trains, have you. There's no need to run locomotives around trains anymore.


----------



## Republica

*


Manchester Planner said:



(or a loco on one end and a driving van trailer (DVT) on the other end)

Click to expand...

*


flierfy said:


> You have never heard of push-pull trains, have you. There's no need to run locomotives around trains anymore.


DVT IS push pull flierfly...


----------



## serdar samanlı1

Songoten2554 said:


> i think it has to do with a little of everything.
> 
> i don't know if anybody wants to correct me on this but what i have seen and learned about the british rail system which is interesting as well, is that yeah most of the journeys people make are short journeys of course there are long journeys but the majority is short trips.
> 
> also the fact that MU's are faster then loco hauled trains and also are able to be ready faster then loco hauled.
> 
> but also about the loading guage hmm can someone help us out here with this?
> 
> also great pictures of the Airport Rail links in the UK photos they are really great and high quality.
> 
> also a question about the gatwick express does the trains looks like that color or are they green now because of southern?


Maybe the trains serving Scotland from London are loco-hauled


----------



## Republica

Yes, they are on the East coast main line. (and probably the some on the west?)


----------



## andysimo123

serdar samanlı;31877332 said:


> Maybe the trains serving Scotland from London are loco-hauled


On the East Coast Main Line they use Electric and Diesel Locos. Class 43s(Intercity 125s) and Class 91s(Intercity 225s). 
On the West Cost Main Line they use EMUs which are Class 390s aka Virgin Pendolinos. Am not sure if there are any direct London Scotland services served by anything else but its likely.


----------



## Manchester Planner

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7874216.stm

The West Highland line has been voted the top rail journey in the world by readers of independent travel magazine, Wanderlust.

It came ahead of two trips in Peru and the Trans Siberian Express.

The line from Glasgow to Mallaig is a 164 miles long and runs by Loch Long, Loch Lomond, Loch Etive and Loch Eil.

It crosses the world's first concrete rail viaduct at Glenfinnan, which was featured in the Harry Potter films, and passes the silver sands of Morar.

Passengers can also see Britain's most westerly station at Arisaig.

The line has also featured in programmes such as the BBC's Great Railway Journeys of the world.

The West Highland line beat off competition from 400 other nominated rail journeys from around the world.

The awards attracted almost 3,000 readers' votes.

Wanderlust editor-in-chief Lyn Hughes said: "We have had a terrific response and it is obvious that the appetite for rail travel is ever increasing.

"Having a Scottish winner for this award is particularly exciting, and shows you don't have to travel far for truly world-beating scenery."

Steve Montgomery, acting managing director of ScotRail, said: "We are delighted that Wanderlust readers, who are so passionate about travel, have chosen the West Highland Line.

"It is a testament to our staff, our services - and the line, now the world's top rail journey.

"We look forward to welcoming more visitors to savour the line's delights."


----------



## sotavento

^^^I recomend the WHL ... one of the true wonders of the world ... Myself already made the trip 3 times (2 by train and 1 on "foot" taking pictures of the railway and the surrounding area). :cheers:



Republica said:


> I'm not sure, maybe its due to the short nature of a lot of rail journies in the UK and the fact that MU's are faster at accelerating. Maybe something to do with loading guage? Are they cheaper?



Not that simple ... 


EMU/DMU were introduced to allow lighter services (lighter as in a loco plus one or two cars behind it) to be as less moneylosers as possible. 


A similarly powered EMU/DMU and loco-hauled are indeed very differen from eachothers ... for example:

HST = 2 brake.motor-van/locomotives + 8/9 cars = 2 engines at the ends ... some 3000KW power ... they even put the "quiet coaches" near the engines. :lol: 

a similar DMU would be a pair of Voyagers with their 8/9 under-floor noisy motors in each car ... 2 crews ... some 1900KW + 2400KW = 4300KW rampaging under the pssenger compartment the entire trip ... and so and so and so

hno:

NatExp (ex.GNER) EMU is a simple Class91+9 MkIV+DVT with some 4500KW

virgin Pendolino 390 with 9 cars and 5100KW (terrible acceleration performance)

The "new" javelins based on 130km/h narrow gauge technology. :cheers:


Isolated power (namely locomotive , push-pull , dual headed trains) is much more "cheaper" if we are talking about huge batches of rolingstock ... maintaining loco-hauled cars is much cheapers

Distributed power is more costly but nonetheless has it's own advantages in other areas. 



andysimo123 said:


> On the East Coast Main Line they use Electric and Diesel Locos. Class 43s(Intercity 125s) and Class 91s(Intercity 225s).
> On the West Cost Main Line they use EMUs which are Class 390s aka Virgin Pendolinos. Am not sure if there are any direct London Scotland services served by anything else but its likely.


Other than that only the night trains ???


----------



## sotavento

Tri-ring said:


> Give it a break.hno:
> The locomotive has two boogies with two axles per boogie amounting to four powered axles per loco.Since TGV is a push-pull it's eight in all.
> Calling TGV an EMU is completely absurd.:nuts:
> 
> My anology of 2 wheel drive vs 4 wheel drive is about powered axle vs non-powered(trailing) axles.
> Bigger motors do generate more torque but it is worthless if it is not transmitted to the tracks properly. Steel against steel does not have much traction so if you apply too much torque too quickly it starts a wheel spin. The only way to stop a wheel spin is reduce power so the wheels regain traction thus the train starts moving ahead.
> Large axle load means stress to the motors making the power band narrower so again throttling becomes critical that is why push/pull needs a long lead way to obtain top speed, meaning slower acceleration/deceleration rate.
> With EMUs power is more evenly dispersed making the axle load lower reducing stress creating a wider power band.
> 
> It's all high school physics, I suggest you read it more.
> 
> =Edit=
> I also did a simple power/weight ratio per powered axle calculation based on the information you provided.
> 
> 
> =Re-edited to reflex above info.=
> 
> Weight	Power per axle Number of powered axle Load per powered axle Power/weight ratio
> ICE3 410 500 16 25.625 0.051
> TGV POS	383 1100 8  47.875 0.044
> N700 357.5 305 32 11.171875 0.037
> 
> With 47tonnes per powered axle, the power band will be very narrow compared to the other two.


fixed formation trains ARE always EMU/DMU by "definition" ...

Have you ever seen the 3 car TGV runing around uncoupled from each other ??? 


:lol:


If your rgumentation is based SOLELY on the premises that (when built) the TGV had the powercars more based on the premises that the 1st car of a HST shouldn't transport passengers and thus its a push pull ... 

what to say about the little (meaningless to you for sure) detail that there are only 3 distinct (meaning separable outside the shops) vehicles in a TGV consist ... namely the 2 powercars and the intermediate lightweight "consist" ????

Shinkansen and ICE ??? yeah ... EMU all the way ... ... just remove the drawbar and you get a lot of self propelled vehicles. :lol: 


Talgo 130 , Talgo 102 and TGV trainsets are much more "emu" than what you see at first sight. :bash:

And you are wrong about the power/axles:

ICE3 = 8 cars , 4 powered cars , 4 unpowered cars , 8 powered bogies , 8 unpowered bogies , 16 powered axles , 16 unpowered axles

N700 = 32 axles of wich 28 are powered 

TGV Sud Est = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (2 powered bogies , 4 powered axles , 7 unpowered bogies) = 12 powered , 14 unpowered axles 

TGV Reseau = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (9 unpowered bogies) = 8 powered , 18 unpowered axles 

(notice that a similar 200m long ICE3 and N700 would have 6 more axles than the standard-lenght TGV)


Free Flamming ... If you are assuming that unpowered axles are dead weight ... then the ICE3 carries a lot more "dead weight" than the TGV. :cheers: 


About the N700 ... We can't discuss about wheel-rail grip and high speed acceleration without proper numbers ... 

8500/8800KW on 56 tiny 305KW in each axle or on 8 big 1100KW _body-mounted_ traction motors ???? wich is more effective for accelerating to high speeds ?????


:dunno:

EMU's are just an evolutionary step over the stone age steam traction. hno:


----------



## andysimo123

sotavento said:


> Other than that only the night trains ???


:dunno: I don't understand the question?


----------



## taikoo.city

sotavento said:


> About the N700 ... We can't discuss about wheel-rail grip and high speed acceleration without proper numbers ...
> 
> 8500/8800KW on 56 tiny 305KW in each axle or on 8 big 1100KW _body-mounted_ traction motors ???? wich is more effective for accelerating to high speeds ?????
> 
> 
> :dunno:
> 
> EMU's are just an evolutionary step over the stone age steam traction. hno:


Actually N700s have a similar acceleration to a commuter train (2.6km/h/s+), so it'll be more suitable for making frequent stops than any other high speed trainsets. Also you can't power an axle if the motor is not on the same carriage as the axle.


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> fixed formation trains ARE always EMU/DMU by "definition" ...
> 
> Have you ever seen the 3 car TGV runing around uncoupled from each other ???


I don't remember the actual number of carts but I believe the high speed record stun was less than 8 cart.(4 maybe?)
In any case your argument is as meaningless as a stub on a street.



sotavento said:


> And you are wrong about the power/axles:
> 
> ICE3 = 8 cars , 4 powered cars , 4 unpowered cars , 8 powered bogies , 8 unpowered bogies , 16 powered axles , 16 unpowered axles
> 
> N700 = 32 axles of wich 28 are powered
> 
> TGV Sud Est = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (2 powered bogies , 4 powered axles , 7 unpowered bogies) = 12 powered , 14 unpowered axles
> 
> TGV Reseau = 2 power cars (4 + 4 powered axles) + 8 permanently-coupled cars (9 unpowered bogies) = 8 powered , 18 unpowered axles
> 
> (notice that a similar 200m long ICE3 and N700 would have 6 more axles than the standard-lenght TGV)
> 
> 
> Free Flamming ... If you are assuming that unpowered axles are dead weight ... then the ICE3 carries a lot more "dead weight" than the TGV. :cheers:


I used the numbers you provided, I am guessing you're really weak with them since I gave you the following numbers which you were not able to comprehend.
Axle load per powered axle
ICE3 25.625 tons
TGV 47.875 tons
N700 11.171875 tons

When the motors reaches those numbers in generating torque the train set starts to move.
Power out put of an electric motor is more or less linear so a train set with the lightest axle load starts to move and accelerate the fastest.


----------



## Republica

What the hell are you even arguing about? I cant even work it out.


----------



## sotavento

Tri-ring said:


> I don't remember the actual number of carts but I believe the high speed record stun was less than 8 cart.(4 maybe?)
> In any case your argument is as meaningless as a stub on a street.



Stop claimin crap ... 


A TGV is composed of 3 FIXED cars ... MOTOR1 + intermediate snake + MOTOR2 :lol:

Since every bogie in the intermediate consist is shared between adjacent cars you would need to go inside the shop/works to uncouple them using special gear ... 


A ICE3/N700 are just standard coaches coupled together with a conecting bar. :lol:


that's what I'm talking about ... there is no "conventional loco haouled" concept aplicable there AT ALL. :bash:





> I used the numbers you provided, I am guessing you're really weak with them since I gave you the following numbers which you were not able to comprehend.
> Axle load per powered axle
> ICE3 25.625 tons
> TGV 47.875 tons
> N700 11.171875 tons
> 
> When the motors reaches those numbers in generating torque the train set starts to move.
> Power out put of an electric motor is more or less linear so a train set with the lightest axle load starts to move and accelerate the fastest.


No ... what are the transmission relations (gear box ratios) , TOTAL maximum tractive effort , maximum starting power and so on on each and every traction motor in the different high speed trains ...


... do you have definitive numbers to base your claims ... or do you base your definitive conclusions on your assumption that different equations are easily transplanted from one chart to another ??? 



One way to easily compare is using OLD TEK with NEW TEK:

TGV Sud Est ... 12 POWERED and 14 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/2
TGV Reseau ... 8 POWERED and 18 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/3
ICE3 ... 16 powered axles and 16 unpowered axles ... 1/2
N700 ... 56 powered axles and 8 unpowered axles ... 7/8
ICE1/ETR500 = 8 powered and 56(?) unpowered axles ... 1/8 (both of them doulle lenght and seriously underpowered)




Now ... if one wants ONE particular kind of train ... one should choose the caracteristics that better fit ...


French TGV's are enineered to RUN at high speeds for long stretches of track ... N700 is engineered for the long "comuter-stile" of Tokkaido. :dunno:


----------



## sotavento

Just as an aftertought ... a couple of comments about how and why trains were/are built that way:


- the TGV was suposed to be a turbine powered trains so it was only in the end built as an electric EMU ... that brought the nuclear powerplants to france in the 80's

- faster trains were seen as "needing" a 1st car free of passengers due to safety reasons ... only in mid 90's did they start to consider putting passengers in the first coach of HST in europe (namely in ICE2) 

- when the ICE3 project was being studied it was about a train to "newer" HSL with steeper grades (up to 4%) and they considered all possible traction solutions (even a train with 100% powered axles) ... they decided on 50% powered axles 

- EMU trains were considered a non-optimal solution in europe until recently ... solely on the premisses that the EMU's were built by carriage manufacturers leaving locomotive manufacturers out of work ... only when the 3 great ones (alstom , siemens , adtrainz) took an hegemonic control of the sector did EMU stop being such black-sheeps. :lol:

- the 80's saw the size of transformers shrink ... that led to them being placed under the frame so high powered locomotives could be used in HST (namely the TGV) 

- the 90's brought the inverter size shrinkage so they also became underfloor items ... and that allowed the use and abuse of distributed power EMU highspeed trains in europe (ICE3 , ETR4xx and variants) ...

- some other aditional advances in technology led to inumerous solutions being developed ... including pendulation and light aluminion extrusion and honeycomb ... all led to faster , more powerfull and lighter trains being able to go even faster 

Aplying these principles to Britain:

70's ... HST and APT as a concept were two huge breaktru technology avancements ...

2000's ... Voyager and Pendolino 390's are _"off the shelf"_ trains ... you only choos the color of the vinils to apply and what tone to give the anouncements. :cheers:



Back on topic please ... Trains in Britain:


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> Stop claimin crap ...
> 
> 
> A TGV is composed of 3 FIXED cars ... MOTOR1 + intermediate snake + MOTOR2 :lol:
> 
> Since every bogie in the intermediate consist is shared between adjacent cars you would need to go inside the shop/works to uncouple them using special gear ...
> 
> 
> A ICE3/N700 are just standard coaches coupled together with a conecting bar. :lol:
> 
> 
> that's what I'm talking about ... there is no "conventional loco haouled" concept aplicable there AT ALL. :bash:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No ... what are the transmission relations (gear box ratios) , TOTAL maximum tractive effort , maximum starting power and so on on each and every traction motor in the different high speed trains ...
> 
> 
> ... do you have definitive numbers to base your claims ... or do you base your definitive conclusions on your assumption that different equations are easily transplanted from one chart to another ???
> 
> 
> 
> One way to easily compare is using OLD TEK with NEW TEK:
> 
> TGV Sud Est ... 12 POWERED and 14 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/2
> TGV Reseau ... 8 POWERED and 18 UNPOWERED axles ... ~1/3
> ICE3 ... 16 powered axles and 16 unpowered axles ... 1/2
> N700 ... 56 powered axles and 8 unpowered axles ... 7/8
> ICE1/ETR500 = 8 powered and 56(?) unpowered axles ... 1/8 (both of them doulle lenght and seriously underpowered)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now ... if one wants ONE particular kind of train ... one should choose the caracteristics that better fit ...
> 
> 
> French TGV's are enineered to RUN at high speeds for long stretches of track ... N700 is engineered for the long "comuter-stile" of Tokkaido. :dunno:


I only have one word, "Pathetic"hno:



> A TGV is composed of 3 FIXED cars ... MOTOR1 + intermediate snake + MOTOR2


A discription of a push/pull and still claiming as an EMU.:doh:



> No ... what are the transmission relations (gear box ratios) , TOTAL maximum tractive effort , maximum starting power and so on on each and every traction motor in the different high speed trains ...


Also making claim not knowing principle of a gear.hno:
Really you should study the subject before claiming.

Tell me what do you think the gear ratio are for each motors given the fact you know each motor's power out put.
After all you posted them.
Gear ratios aren't going to be that different from one model to the other unless they have a *very* specfic function.
Get over it.:nuts:


----------



## andysimo123

How about some good news instead of what ever you two have lost the plot on.



> Agility Is Preferred Bidder to Build New U.K. Trains
> 
> By David Altaner
> 
> Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- The U.K. Department for Transport today named Agility Trains, a group which includes John Laing Plc, Hitachi Ltd. and Barclays Plc, as the preferred bidder for a 7.5 billion-pound ($10.7 billion) contract to build and maintain a fleet of Super Express trains.
> 
> The trains for the Great Western and East Coast lines would replace existing high-speed trains which are up to 30 years old, the department said in a Regulatory News Service statement.
> 
> Last June, the U.K. said train-passenger trips have increased 40 percent over 10 years, to 1.13 billion, the highest since 1946. The government predicts journeys will rise another 30 percent over the next decade.
> 
> “The fleet will provide long-distance operators with the trains they need to meet the needs of a growing market and passengers with an attractive, cost-effective travel choice,” said Alec McTavish, director of policy and operations for the Association of Train Operating Companies, in the statement.
> 
> The Agility group will build a train factory, as well as depots in Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Leeds and London, a move that will “create or safeguard” about 12,500 manufacturing jobs, the department said.
> 
> The 125 mile-per-hour trains will enter service at the beginning of 2013, linking London to cities including Cambridge, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol and Edinburgh, the department said.
> 
> They would replace Intercity 125 and Intercity 225 high- speed trains with lighter, more energy-efficient diesel and electric locomotives and carriages that will carry up to 21 percent more passengers per train, according to the statement.
> 
> Secondary bidder for the contract is Express Rail Alliance, which includes Bombardier Inc., Siemens AG, Angel Trains Ltd. and Babcock & Brown Infrastructure Group, the release said.
> 
> Also, Bombardier was named preferred bidder to provide 120 new carriages for National Express Group Plc’s Stansted Express airport service, the department said. Bombardier would build the rolling stock in Derby, it said.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=auZswQHj_tG8&refer=uk


1,400 carriages in one order and 120 in another one.


----------



## hoosier

^^Great news. That is a also a great form of economic stimulus.

125 mph is about the same speed as German ICE trains.


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## japanese001

映像
http://www1.ntv.co.jp/news/wmtram/dw/ng.html?m_url=090213010&n_url=129019


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## sotavento

Tri-ring said:


> I only have one word, "Pathetic"hno:
> 
> 
> 
> A discription of a push/pull and still claiming as an EMU.:doh:
> 
> 
> 
> Also making claim not knowing principle of a gear.hno:
> Really you should study the subject before claiming.
> 
> Tell me what do you think the gear ratio are for each motors given the fact you know each motor's power out put.
> After all you posted them.
> Gear ratios aren't going to be that different from one model to the other unless they have a *very* specfic function.
> Get over it.:nuts:


You really are pathetic ... 


Every EMU is a push-pull train ... :bash:

If you diferentiate between high speed trains (prior to the 80's & 90's) that have passengers in the 1st car and those that don't (wich by the way in europe there is NONE) ... it's purelly a consequence of it being unavoidable until early 90's to have the 1st car without passengers. 

So NO train wich travelled above 200km/h could ever HAVE a passenger car up front ... hno:

That's why the british developed the DVT cab car ... 


And considering that only the recent models (x2000) have a non powered cab car in the front ... what crap are you trying to pull about push-pull ??? :lol:

FACTS:

European (and national) regulations forbid (until recently) passengers in the 1st car of any HST

The 1st to do so were the Italians with ETR450 and the swedish X2000 , then followed by the german ICE2 (wich had a lot of problems due precisely to having a passenger car up front)


And stop pulling crap out of your mouth ... 


Some TGV's have motored axles in the 3 basic components of a consist ... out of the "true" HST it is the LESS "conventional" train ... :lol:


And just by reading your posts I'm sure that I know much more about trains than you. :cheers:


You surelly should get over it ... "_ British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views"_ is not about your rantings os TGV being a locomotive ... :bash:


----------



## 33Hz

Are there any moderators on this site? Can you two please take your nothing to do with British trains or news discussions elsewhere...


Right, about this order with Agility Trains / Hitachi.

Firstly, at 125mph these are not the same speed as the German ICE. In fact, they are not any faster than the trains they are replacing. Worse, the Intercity 225 that operates on the East Coast was designed for 140mph (and has never been allowed to do it) hno:

Secondly, if the government (and other political parties) are serious about getting on with true High Speed Rail, I cannot see how ordering £7.5bn of new stock which on some routes will be replaced within 10 years is good value for money.


----------



## sarflonlad

33Hz said:


> Are there any moderators on this site? Can you two please take your nothing to do with British trains or news discussions elsewhere...
> 
> 
> Right, about this order with Agility Trains / Hitachi.
> 
> Firstly, at 125mph these are not the same speed as the German ICE. In fact, they are not any faster than the trains they are replacing. Worse, the Intercity 225 that operates on the East Coast was designed for 140mph (and has never been allowed to do it) hno:
> 
> Secondly, if the government (and other political parties) are serious about getting on with true High Speed Rail, I cannot see how ordering £7.5bn of new stock which on some routes will be replaced within 10 years is good value for money.


The mumblings are, they'll be required to go at least 155mph for new lines. 

Once in-cab signaling is finally installed, the ECML (and others) will run at 140mph.

Besides, new HS lines alongside 140mph classic lines would revolutionise UK rail from "ok" to "amazing". Good value in my opinion!


----------



## Cherguevara

33Hz said:


> Right, about this order with Agility Trains / Hitachi.
> 
> Firstly, at 125mph these are not the same speed as the German ICE. In fact, they are not any faster than the trains they are replacing. Worse, the Intercity 225 that operates on the East Coast was designed for 140mph (and has never been allowed to do it) hno:
> 
> Secondly, if the government (and other political parties) are serious about getting on with true High Speed Rail, I cannot see how ordering £7.5bn of new stock which on some routes will be replaced within 10 years is good value for money.


Also if Britain is going to build a HSR it's going to go along side the highly congested West Coast Mainline corridor in the first instance. This order is supposed to replace the trains operating on the East Coast Mainline and Great Western Railway routes, which will presumably have to wait much longer for a "true" HSR (if it ever comes).


----------



## JoKo65

hoosier said:


> ^^Great news. That is a also a great form of economic stimulus.
> 
> 125 mph is about the same speed as German ICE trains.


Only in case of ICE TD, which is only used on Hamburg–København.
All other ICEs are faster (Vmax):

ICE T: 230 km/h
ICE 1: 280 km/h
ICE 2: 280 km/h
ICE 3: 330 km/h
ICE 3M: 330 km/h
ICE 3MF: 330 km/h


----------



## taikoo.city

sarflonlad said:


> The mumblings are, they'll be required to go at least 155mph for new lines.
> 
> Once in-cab signaling is finally installed, the ECML (and others) will run at 140mph.
> 
> Besides, new HS lines alongside 140mph classic lines would revolutionise UK rail from "ok" to "amazing". Good value in my opinion!


ECML, WCML and probably GWML may acheive such speed. MML will not without significant reallignment or the utilisation of tilting trains (aka the Pendolinos).

By the way 155mph on high speed lines is considered slow, especially if we're talking about 225mph 2nd Generation Wheel-on-Rail HSR instead of the 186mph 1st Generation counterpart.


----------



## Tri-ring

andysimo123 said:


> How about some good news instead of what ever you two have lost the plot on.
> 
> 
> 
> Agility Is Preferred Bidder to Build New U.K. Trains
> 
> By David Altaner
> 
> Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- The U.K. Department for Transport today named Agility Trains, a group which includes John Laing Plc, Hitachi Ltd. and Barclays Plc, as the preferred bidder for a 7.5 billion-pound ($10.7 billion) contract to build and maintain a fleet of Super Express trains.
> 
> The trains for the Great Western and East Coast lines would replace existing high-speed trains which are up to 30 years old, the department said in a Regulatory News Service statement.
> 
> Last June, the U.K. said train-passenger trips have increased 40 percent over 10 years, to 1.13 billion, the highest since 1946. The government predicts journeys will rise another 30 percent over the next decade.
> 
> “The fleet will provide long-distance operators with the trains they need to meet the needs of a growing market and passengers with an attractive, cost-effective travel choice,” said Alec McTavish, director of policy and operations for the Association of Train Operating Companies, in the statement.
> 
> The Agility group will build a train factory, as well as depots in Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Leeds and London, a move that will “create or safeguard” about 12,500 manufacturing jobs, the department said.
> 
> The 125 mile-per-hour trains will enter service at the beginning of 2013, linking London to cities including Cambridge, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol and Edinburgh, the department said.
> 
> They would replace Intercity 125 and Intercity 225 high- speed trains with lighter, more energy-efficient diesel and electric locomotives and carriages that will carry up to 21 percent more passengers per train, according to the statement.
> 
> Secondary bidder for the contract is Express Rail Alliance, which includes Bombardier Inc., Siemens AG, Angel Trains Ltd. and Babcock & Brown Infrastructure Group, the release said.
> 
> Also, Bombardier was named preferred bidder to provide 120 new carriages for National Express Group Plc’s Stansted Express airport service, the department said. Bombardier would build the rolling stock in Derby, it said.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...j_tG8&refer=uk
> 
> 
> 
> 1,400 carriages in one order and 120 in another one.
Click to expand...

I don't know how much it is reported nor how much effect it has to the plan but in Japan it is reported that National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers is critical to this decision stating that IF Japan can develop HSR then British manufacturing can do it as well and should protect British manufacturing companies that are involved in this field. Even though Hitachi had declared that they will establish a factory as well as depots in Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Leeds and London.

What do you think?


----------



## 33Hz

I think the RMT is making their usual noise without thinking about it. The other bid was backed by a Canadian and German company, afterall. As Hitachi has said they will establish a new facility in the UK to build these trains (as well as, like you say, new depots), this will increase the number of rail manufacturing jobs in the UK. Bombardier will still get orders from the other large procurements going on (1300 "traditional" carriages") and the UK re-establishes competition in the locally-made market.


----------



## 33Hz

By the way, the direct source of information about this contract is here: http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/f...67&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False

Scroll right to the bottom for a zip file containing a high quality video about the trains, including the clip that NTV used above.


----------



## Micrav

Jaeger said:


> A Couple of UK Airport/Rail Connection pics .
> 
> The Gatwick Express (London Victoria Station to Gatwick Airport)


This train design makes the train looks so sad and tired like if somebody had hit him in the schoolyard and comes to report to teacher... :lol:
Is it so sad to be the Gatwick Express? Where is the true good British Design?


----------



## bigbossman

^^ looks like darth vader!


----------



## PredyGr

Are the train specifications of the express rail alliance's offer known? Weigh more or less than Hitachi's offer?


----------



## sotavento

taikoo.city said:


> It depends on how you define HSR technology: the vehicles or the tracks, or both. You may be an EXPERT (and strong defender) on TGV technology ...


Completely offtopic but "TGV Technology" and "Shinkansen Technology" are one and the same ... railway technology. hno: 

Tis is a 100% wrong statement ... since both the LGV Sud Est _route_ and the TGV sud est _trainsets_ were actually the FIRST "true" HSR/HST ... one must remember that acording to current standards the HSR/HST begin at _"above"_ 250km/h.

the first japanese trains above the 210/220 km/h of the original series 0 100 and 200 were the "uprated" later series 200 in 1983(?) and their speed limit was only 240km/h . 

And that's a FACT and not a simple statement ... and this coming from a guy that actually _dislikes_ the french HSR/HST concept in almost it's entire lenght. :bash:

Bein called a TGV defender to me is almost as if you had walked and p++++ over my grave. :lol:

Just consider this ... except for the Italian PEndolinos (used to overspeed to 270km/h or even more in the directissima prior to automatic control systems forced a 250km/h speed limit there) and the Sud Est TGV's none of the other high speed trains was able to go over 220km/h until the 80's ... so when talking about technological aspects and other operational qualities the 60's-80's shinkansen sould be put on par with the IC125/IC225 (and others such as the german DB103+ 200km/h intercity trains) 




> having been working on this field for decades but you shouldn't be in the position of criticizing and attacking Shinkansen technology if you know nothing, or only a tiny fraction, of that technology and service philosophy.


Noone has ever atacked Shinkansen technology in any way ... and it's technology is very visible to allow anyone a good look at it ... its tremendously passenger-served-the-best-way-we-can oriented indeed. :cheers:



> TGV is simply NOT for Britain because it's aimed for long-distance travel (and an alternative to flying) instead of a more metro-style service (and congestion relief) like the Shinkansen's been running since the late 60s.


TGV is a group of trainsets ... one of those trainsets runs daily on britihs tracks ... namely Eurostar in HS1. :lol: 



> Britain is also more similar to Japan than any other European countries being a small island with relatively higher population density than the continent. Britain would also need more tunnels for HSR than the continent due to NIMBYs and developed areas along some of the main lines. You can call me Anti-TGV if you like but I'm not a fanboy or fangirl of ANY particular technology, and would prefer British technology if it managed to be successfully developed back in the APT era. It's a pity they eventually scrapped the whole project and sold everything to Italy (and not Hitachi).


On the contrary ... britains is _ANYTHING BUT_ similar to japan in terms of railways ... especially if one talks about HSR and the wilingness to make compromisses to achieve any goals. 

If the UK was in any way similar to japan the hole country would be nowadays littered with 200mph capable 4 track electrified main lines stretching from Thurso to Penzance ... or dare I say it ... 


From Kirkwall to Lands End ??? :nuts:

Could england ever consider a 17km long railway crossing to serve the small northern islands ??? or even some extended highland railway to Uig (isle of Sky) or any other "exotic" railway ???


considering that the "basic" reopening of old "Beeched" routes could easily solve 1/2 (half) the current british mainline congestions:

Airdrie-Bathgate to allow direct Glasgow-Edimburg services ... 125mph electric trainsets would kill the 60km gap in 20 minutes or even less

Widness-Timberley to allow direct Liverpool-Manchester coped with the reopening of the Hollingworth-Penistone-Sheffield could create a functioning East-West HSR 

The GCML is a complete "prelaid" and "prepaid" base for a "true" HSR at ultra high speeds ... it was even projected originally as a continental loading gauge route so it is even easy to recover some old bridges and infraestructure. :lol:

Other such _"easy to steal again"_ bargains exist everywhere in the island ... so nothing is comparable to the _"let's brake it and pay every yen with a smile on our faces"_ of the Japanese way. 


Thus the basic diference between japan and the UK is easily explain on one or two words ... "wilingness" and "preseverance". hno:

^^ And I bet that I misspelled both. :lol:


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> Completely offtopic but "TGV Technology" and "Shinkansen Technology" are one and the same ... railway technology. hno:


Actually they point to completely two different things.
TGV technology basically points to the trainset while Shinkansen refers to the overall package of trainset, signaling system and overall track design.
JR made a real fuss and even published a message to the press not to call it Shinkansen when the media was covered the opening of "Taiwan Shinkansen" since it is actually a mixture of European(signaling system), Korean(track construction) and Japanese(trainset) technology.


----------



## sotavento

^^ that's a completely wron assessment of the situation here ... 



"TGV" originally meant the _"turbine a gran vitesse"_ test train and was subsequently reinvented as _"train a gran vitesse"_ to designate the comercial service operated by SNCF ... people call the LGV (lignes a grand vitesse) as _"tgv lines"_ 

"Shinkansen" suffered the exact oposite problem ... it only meant "new trunk railway" but people started to use it to designat ethe trainsets. 


So both are the same ... "media marketing names" to designate simply the use of high speed trains on those services. (nevermind the technical mambojumbo and propaganda) 

What happened to JR about taiwan hapens everiwhere in europe when people start refering to HSR (generically) as _"TGV"_. :cheers:



For example here in neighbluring spain the Lisboa-Madrid HSR is refered to as "linea de Ave hacia portugal" ... we usually refer to it as "linha de TGV para espanha".

Actually if we were to call it in portuguese it would be a "CAV - comboio de alta velocidade" or something like that. :lol:

British on the other hand have a problem ... HST naming already taken. :cheers:

Back on the "technology" side of things ... the use of any privately owned company technology on the infraestructure doesn't necessarily mean that it's that country system's technology. 

Japanese (due to tthe terrain) usually build everything on bridge/viaduct/tunnel ... spanish/french/german usually (like us) build almost everything in cuttings/banks with a pressed gravell trackbed (also due to the terrain being faborable to that solution) ... but nothing stops one or another from using exactly the same solutions. :cheers:

A quick example ... THIS:










In the british countryside environment is much cheaper than THIS:










... or maiby not. hno:

Anyway ... this is the usual intermediate station in the JR system:











Anyone care to compare with the british platforms ??? 

offtopic: a great way to easily improve capacity in NR would be to re.create the 4 track stations everywhere that they rigged the passing tracks onto stopping double tracks (they made an "eye" shaped double track out of a 4 track alignement ... thus eleminasting th epassing places there).

Other places could be treated like reading (adding stoping tracks near the fast ones). 

And so much more can be made to improve the capacity handling on NR trackage that we could be here for years talking about it. :cheers:


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> ^^ that's a completely wron assessment of the situation here ...
> 
> 
> 
> "TGV" originally meant the _"turbine a gran vitesse"_ test train and was subsequently reinvented as _"train a gran vitesse"_ to designate the comercial service operated by SNCF ... people call the LGV (lignes a grand vitesse) as _"tgv lines"_
> 
> "Shinkansen" suffered the exact oposite problem ... it only meant "new trunk railway" but people started to use it to designat ethe trainsets.
> 
> 
> So both are the same ... "media marketing names" to designate simply the use of high speed trains on those services. (nevermind the technical mambojumbo and propaganda)


I don't know why you constantly shoot yourself in the foot.hno:

Shinkansen when first announced in the 50's was a pretty daring plan with three criteria on Safety, Speed and Comfort.
Each part was approached seperately with individual tangible goals and solutions.
Safety was achieved by introducing a completely new in-car signaling and control system, Automatic Train Control(ATC). (This was the first in Japan)
Speed(top speed and accerleration rate) was achieved through a newly designed trainset.
Comfort was achieved through route design making the route as straight as possible placing minimum radius of curves at 2,500M and utilizing the longest rails available at that time.

Presently JR still maintains that the three criteria must be achieved with mesureable benchmarks and systems(D-ATC) to be called a Shinkansen. 

So it's not just a media marketing name.


----------



## sotavento

> I don't know why you constantly shoot yourself in the foot


do you even care to read what you quote ??? I'm certainly not the one rampaging with a loaded shotgun ... :lol:




> Shinkansen when first announced in the 50's was a pretty daring plan with three criteria on Safety, Speed and Comfort.
> Each part was approached seperately with individual tangible goals and solutions.


And what does that contradict on my previous statements ??? hno:

All major HSR projects share the same basic features ... "lets make it a GREAT jump ahead this time" ... due to the pre-existing infraestructure that meant that Japan didi it in the 60's and most europeans did it only in the 80's or 90's ... nothing more and nothing less than that. 


Completely offtopic (this is the british thread): the _"early days"_ shinkansen by current standards would be considered as _"upgraded to HSR standards"_ due to it being a 210km/h route back then and not a _"250km/h and over HSR"_ (*) ... learn to live with it. :cheers:
stratospherically offtopic: has anyone ever _badmouthed_ the japanese way of doing things ??? usually they are pretty eficient in everything. hno:


----------



## taikoo.city

sotavento said:


> Completely offtopic (this is the british thread): the _"early days"_ shinkansen by current standards would be considered as _"upgraded to HSR standards"_ due to it being a 210km/h route back then and not a _"250km/h and over HSR"_ (*) ... learn to live with it. :cheers:
> stratospherically offtopic: has anyone ever _badmouthed_ the japanese way of doing things ??? usually they are pretty eficient in everything. hno:


Wow! Putting a non-global definition (ie. arbitrarily defined by the Europeans) upon the renowned Shinkansen system :lol: you sure are pissing the Japanese off. hno:

Your TGV fanboyism is what makes this thread off topic, live with it and STHU! No matter how "good" yoru TGV system is it's simply NOT for Britain, at least not for DOMESTIC travel. See what Dft chose for Intercity Express programme: An EMU with acceleration/deceleration compatible (if not higher) than commuter trains. Frequent stops with minimal sacrifice in journey time is gonna be the norm.

Advertise your TGV-ism elsewhere please, probably the French section would be a PERFECT place for your self satisfaction...


----------



## Republica

IEP is 0.75 m/s/s acceleration. Is that fast?

And it comes in two lengths, the 260m long standards intercity train and the 130m commuter train.


----------



## sotonsi

I thought IEP is for shorter intercity journeys (hence the commuter train). Then again, London-Scotland trains, despite not stopping between London and either Warrington or York (OK, only some ECML trains do that), do stop rather frequently after that.

Warrington-Wigan-Preston-Lancaster-Oxenholme/Penrith-Carlisle is 6 stops in 100 miles, clustered in the southern half of that.
York-Northallerton-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle-Morpeth-Alnwick-Berwick-Dunbar-Edinburgh is likewise rather a lot of stops.

A complete, single, HSL to Scotland would have a service pattern, on the core route like:
London-Birmingham International-Stoke-Manchester Airport-Manchester
London-Birmingham International-Manchester Airport-Manchester-Leeds
London-Stoke-Manchester-Leeds-York-Darlington-Newcastle
London-Manchester-Leeds-York-Darlington-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow

As you can see, while there are 100 mile gaps on all services (some 150 or even 200 miles) the case is that there are quite a few 10, 20, 30 mile gaps on there as well.


----------



## amirtaheri

The Class 395 was for commuter high speed rail on High Speed 1. I believe the IEP project was to replace the Intercity 125 and 225.


----------



## Republica

yeah IEP is for both commuter and long distance intercity.

So i presume 0.75 acceleration is quite speedy.


----------



## taikoo.city

Republica said:


> IEP is 0.75 m/s/s acceleration. Is that fast?
> 
> And it comes in two lengths, the 260m long standards intercity train and the 130m commuter train.


Or 2.7 km/h/s, slightly higher than that of a N700.


----------



## sotavento

Ideally acceleration should be in the 1,2 ms2 range ... but that is well beyond the reach of the extra-long HST transmission ratios. hno:


----------



## sotavento

taikoo.city said:


> Wow! Putting a non-global definition (ie. arbitrarily defined by the Europeans) upon the renowned Shinkansen system :lol: you sure are pissing the Japanese off. hno:
> 
> Your TGV fanboyism is what makes this thread off topic, live with it and STHU! No matter how "good" yoru TGV system is it's simply NOT for Britain, at least not for DOMESTIC travel. See what Dft chose for Intercity Express programme: An EMU with acceleration/deceleration compatible (if not higher) than commuter trains. Frequent stops with minimal sacrifice in journey time is gonna be the norm.
> 
> Advertise your TGV-ism elsewhere please, probably the French section would be a PERFECT place for your self satisfaction...


You STFU ... 


You seem to have NO KNOWLEDGE whatsoever about the so called" your TGV system" (does Your even belong in that name?). :lol:


In my country we don't even use the french TGV system (be it either the trainsets or the infraestructure) ...

... so this comment of yours is completely wrong:


> Your TGV fanboyism is what makes this thread off topic, live with it and STHU!


Then again ... in the UK they use it a lot ... since it is basically the same service concept that is used in NEXP/GW/CrossCountry/Virgin/MML/ and other services ... never mind the TGV-Eurostar trainsets and the HS1(wich is a french stiled LGV) 

... so this comment of yours is completely wrong:


> No matter how "good" yoru TGV system is it's simply NOT for Britain, at least not for DOMESTIC travel.





> See what Dft chose for Intercity Express programme: An EMU with acceleration/deceleration compatible (if not higher) than commuter trains. Frequent stops with minimal sacrifice in journey time is gonna be the norm.


European comuters can reach as high as 1 m/s2 ... 0,75 m/s2 is slow as hell by any non HSR standards here. :bash: 

... here goes your theory to the dust. :bash:

And you (and others) are still starting with the wrong foot when trying to badmouth in my general direction.

A shinkansen stiled network (namelly a closed HSR network) is USELESS in the european UIC GAUGE vast mileage ... a simpler and much smaller trunk network (wich actually is what the LGV's are) is all that is needed. 

So your statement is 100% wrong indeed ... and since we are 
/were discussing about HS2 and other such europeish nonsense ... all the hardware could be from Hitashi and it wouldn't be a TGV-ish vs. Shinkansen-ish battle ... hno:

If you can't read this statement porperly I would gladly explain it to you:


> stratospherically offtopic: has anyone ever badmouthed the japanese way of doing things ??? usually they are pretty eficient in everything.


Last time I read the topic it was:



> Thread: British Railways - Pics, Info, News, Views


Next time someone ofends me by calling me a tgv fanboy I will simply start to over use the "report post" button. :bash:

Definitelly I'm not being the fanboy over here. hno:


----------



## Mostly Lurking

sotavento said:


> You STFU ...
> 
> *Next time someone ofends me by calling me a tgv fanboy I will simply start to over use the "report post" button. :bash:*
> 
> Definitelly I'm not being the fanboy over here. hno:


Just do it if you are going to do it before people start using it en-masse against you for continually dragging the thread off topic and filling it with inaccuracies.


----------



## Tri-ring

sotavento said:


> European comuters can reach as high as 1 m/s2 ... 0,75 m/s2 is slow as hell by any non HSR standards here. :bash:
> 
> ... here goes your theory to the dust. :bash:


I recall reading in another thread that the ICE3 acceleration rate from stand still was 0.6Km/h/s meaning it 0.16m/s/s.
I believe TGVs are slower then that so in terms of HSR, 0.75m/s/s is quite fast.

Speed is based on revolution of motor*gear rate. Trade off is that to obtain larger torque(acceleration rate), top speed becomes limited and vis versa. Since commuter trains do not require top speed of 200Km/h the gears rate can be focused on achive higher acceleration rate.


----------



## G5man

I read that only half of the wheels on the ICE3 are powered and half are un-powered unlike a shinkansen where only two sets are un-powered for a 16 car set. That is probably what produces such a slow acceleration rate, less wheels powered meaning more that get to take on the load.


----------



## taikoo.city

Mostly Lurking said:


> Just do it if you are going to do it before people start using it en-masse against you for continually dragging the thread off topic and filling it with inaccuracies.


I agree. I don't care what other countries are but everything I'm discussing on regarding HSR is ALL about which system would be better for BRITAIN. So I'm not the one who's off-topic and he has no right nor reason to "report" me (aka filing a complaint against me) whatsoever...hno:


----------



## sotavento

taikoo.city said:


> I agree. I don't care what other countries are but everything I'm discussing on regarding HSR is ALL about which system would be better for BRITAIN. So I'm not the one who's off-topic and he has no right nor reason to "report" me (aka filing a complaint against me) whatsoever...hno:


Into which part of "no right to report" does this fall into ???




> Your TGV fanboyism is what makes this thread off topic, live with it and STHU! No matter how "good" yoru TGV system is it's simply NOT...


hno:



Tri-ring said:


> I recall reading in another thread that the ICE3 acceleration rate from stand still was 0.6Km/h/s meaning it 0.16m/s/s.
> I believe TGVs are slower then that so in terms of HSR, 0.75m/s/s is quite fast.
> 
> Speed is based on revolution of motor*gear rate. Trade off is that to obtain larger torque(acceleration rate), top speed becomes limited and vis versa. Since commuter trains do not require top speed of 200Km/h the gears rate can be focused on achive higher acceleration rate.


That's preciselly the point ... the higher the speed then worse the resulting acceleration ... but it's nonetheless better to have a good HSR train with sufferable acceleration (sufferable as in not near as sluggish as a ETR500) AND a good top speed ... than a good acceleration and a lower top speed. 

Javelins would be good as any other existing british intercity trains presently operatin on BR. :cheers:

But to claim "that" as good over anything else for HSR is being a little blindfolded ... 

And that brings us to the "old" discussions of bigger and powerfull motors versus smaller motors ... remember the TGV(less motored axles but bigger motors) vs. shinkansen (more motored axles but smaller motors) discussion ?? hno: 

Comparatively the Pendolino "usual" 0,35m/s2 acceleration doesn't seem that sluggist (that being from 0-200km/h ... 0-100km/h accel. is 0,5m/s2)... and we are used to call them exactly that over here (portugal) ... sluggish. :dunno:



> the ICE3 acceleration rate from stand still was 0.6Km/h/s meaning it 0.16m/s/s.
> I believe TGVs are slower then that so in terms of HSR, 0.75m/s/s is quite fast.


Since the french don't give away their numbers we must reverse engineer them ... and if we only consider accelerations into the 0-200km/h range we would be indeed making a huge mistake. :lol:

for instance the _"usual"_ numbers defined TGV acceleration from 300-330km/h is 0,2m/s2 and from 300-360km/h is only 0,1m/s2 (let us believe in the internet propaganda) ... and that preciselly is due to the extra long transmissions of any HSR train due to reach 300km/h or more. hno: 


sidenotice: I didn't said that the performance of the s395 was bad ... it's good enough for a train of that tipe ... just that it would be a sluggish comuter (usuall comuter accelerations are much higher)

sidenote2: just noticed that the british s390 is even more sluggish(0,4m/s2) than our own pendolino. hno:


----------



## 33Hz

This site used to be regular reading, but I gave it a miss for 2 months thanks to sotavento's [email protected] in almost every interesting thread. I come back and you are still writing utter off-topic drivel in this same thread. Just take yourself and your bl00dy annoying smilies away and stop wrecking the usefulness of this site!

I mean...



> multiple units stretched to 200mph speeds ARE NOT inovative in anything other than their nose cone design


...just shows the true depth of your knowledge, "Mr Railway Engineer".


----------



## Republica

Yeah sotavento, can you please leave. You talk rubbish in the most bizarre style and end up arguing with whoever comes along. 

Doesnt it cross you mind it might be your fault that that happens and not the other person?


----------



## bigbossman

allied to my point i'd rather governement owned entites were competiting with each other than private entities...


----------



## jayOOfoshO

bigbossman said:


> Rail is a natural monopoly imho because of the barriers to entry and the inefficiency of extra infrastructure costs. Rail unlike air travel is turn up and go. With air travel you tend to compare prices and book in advance because of the distances involved minutes make less of a difference. You can argue the same for long distance rail travel however the key difference is that in air travel journeys on one plane tend to be point-to-point and aren't oversubscribed.
> 
> The way it would work on Long distance rail can't be point-to-point, it'd have to be something like company A offers London to Frankfurt via Brussels and company B offers London to Amsterdam via Brussels and company C offers Amsterdam to Paris via Brussels. They compete over certain sections and offer unique services, but at the same time don't inefficiently duplicate the whole route, it's inefficient because unless there the demand is more than what they can colelctively supply they are overprividing and wasting capacity. And if it was oversubscribed they'd have a virtual duopoly in which they can effectively abuse the market.
> 
> EDIT: The problem is basically where there aren't two separate routes between the same destination. For example the channel tunnel effectively curtails the sort of competiton you are talking about between (only) London and Brussels. That's what i mean by natural monopoly...


Right but why should there be two separate routes?

Just like airlines buy slots at airports from the government, rail carriers could buy "time windows" to operate their trains from the government.

I don't get the whole "it's a natural monopoly because of the infrastructure" thing, if that's what you're trying to say


EDIT maybe I get it. What you're trying to say is that you can't have real competition if two trains get to travel to the same destination at the same time, since on rail you'd have a bunch of carriers that would have to operate trains at different times because they can't run multiple trains on the same track?


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## sotonsi

jayOOfoshO said:


> Just like airlines buy slots at airports from the government, rail carriers could buy "time windows" to operate their trains from the government.


that's exactly what happens, only replace government in both cases with companies (airport owners like BAA and the railway infrastructure owners Network Rail, which is a not-for-profit company).

Open access provide some competition, as do stopping services when run by other companies (eg First Capital Connect vs National eXpress East Coast/East Midland Trains, London Midland vs Virgin West Coast), and slower services that use a different route (eg Chiltern vs Virgin West Coast). There used to be about 5 tickets for Gatwick-London - Thameslink only, Southern only, Gatwick Express only, not Gatwick Express and open. Now the Gatwick Express is run by Southern, that might have changed, though there still might be a premium fare for the non-stop services. The Brighton Main Line might be the only place where completely direct competition happens between two franchised services.


----------



## sotonsi

Leaving aside this economic policy question, here's an article from Auntie Beeb.



BBC said:


> Operators call for new rail lines
> 
> Atoc says record demand has led to the need for investment
> 
> Train operators are calling for widespread expansion of the existing rail network, with 14 extra lines and about 40 new stations proposed.
> 
> The Association of Train Operating Companies said there was a need for expansion to cope with rising demand.
> 
> It said the expansion, which would cost £500m and possibly reuse lines closed under the 1960s Beeching cuts, could serve more than 1m extra passengers.
> 
> Any decisions on future expansion rest with government and Network Rail.
> 
> Atoc chief executive Michael Roberts said: "Record passenger numbers and rising demand require us to plan for the long term, while climate change and population growth make it vital that in doing so, we adapt the rail network to meet tomorrow's needs.
> 
> "Providing attractive new services and easier access to the rail network will encourage passengers to switch to rail from other, less green, modes of transport.
> 
> "We have established that there is a strong business case for investment to bring a number of towns back on to the rail network.
> 
> "Now we need to safeguard these routes and develop the detailed case for investment."
> 
> The Beeching report by Dr Richard Beeching in the 1960s resulted in the railway network being cut by a third, closing 2,000 stations and 5,000 miles of track.
> 
> The Atoc report says 40 towns not currently on the rail network could benefit from the 14 new lines.
> 
> Freight potential
> 
> It says the new stations could be operational within five to 10 years.
> 
> Any decision on whether any of the plans get the go-ahead would be taken by local and regional government, Network Rail and the Department for Transport.
> 
> Atoc argues infrastructure from some of the old lines closed in the 1960s could be refurbished to form part of the new network.
> 
> Freight lines could also be adapted to serve commercial routes, it said.
> 
> Transport Minister Chris Mole said the government would consider the findings of Atoc's report.
> 
> "The government's priority is to bring about changes, such as capacity improvements, which will deliver benefits for rail passengers now," he said.
> 
> "For the longer term, we will work with local authorities who want to improve links to the rail network, and will plan to make funding available from 2014 for successful schemes which demonstrate value for money."
> 
> Financial constraints
> 
> Shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said the research was "interesting" and made "an impressive case" for reopening disused rail lines.
> 
> She added: "Conservatives recognise the value of these transport corridors, which is why we have called for a moratorium on building on any disused rail lines still in public ownership.
> 
> "Certainly, housing growth and the need to cut emissions from transport and tackle road congestion means that all political parties should look seriously at the ideas put forward in this report, though it is clear that the state of the public finances will put constraints on what is possible over the next few years."
> 
> Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail Maritime and Transport union, said: "RMT has repeatedly called for an expansion of rail services to create green jobs and green transport options as part of our campaign for a people's railways.
> 
> "However, any expansion should be publicly-owned and free from the chaos and profiteering of the privatised franchise system."
> 
> The areas which would be served by the 14 possible new lines identified in the report are:
> 
> • Cranleigh in Surrey
> 
> • Bordon, Hythe and Ringwood in Hampshire
> 
> • Brixham in Devon
> 
> • Aldridge and Brownhills in the West Midlands
> 
> • Wisbech in Cambridgeshire
> 
> • Leicester to Burton in the East Midlands
> 
> • Fleetwood, Rawtenstall and Skelmersdale in Lancashire
> 
> • Washington in Tyne and Wear
> 
> • Ashington and Blyth in Northumberland


Some of these are freight/heritage lines anyway so it's a matter of adding stations and running trains. Others are extensions (Cranleigh, Brixham) so wouldn't be difficult to run. I think these are good ideas, though there's clearly some omissions, like Banbury/Aylesbury-Bletchley (mentioned in the report)

Here's ATOC's PDF. Looking at it there are also some station reopenings proposed - Rushden (at Irthlingborough), Peterlee (at Easington), Kenilworth (with line doubling, and not as successful), Ilkeston, Wantage/Grove, Osset, Clay Cross/North Wingfield.


----------



## sotavento

Manchester Planner said:


> Sorry, but what exactly is wrong with those figures you've just presented? Are you suggesting that trains aren't frequent enough?
> 
> I mean, take London-Manchester for instance - it's 3 trains per hour each way direct. That's plenty! It's an inter-city route, not a tram line! :lol:


I was just trying to get an Idea of how many is too many for a single dedicated HSL to handle instead of this enormous amount of mainlines that the UK has that keep the traffic segregated nowadays. hno:

And you are wrong ... it's really a tramline ... full of 125mph trams ... 

- too much traffic
- small trains 
- beaten up and in the verge of colapse infraestructure
- can't cope with capacity

Too much needs to be done to get this mess up to proper standards ... that's what I said. hno:



Republica said:


> I think sotavento is misunderstood on here very often because he doesnt have the required communication skills in english to convey the complex subtleties of the language that he wants to.
> 
> I think it may have been sarcasm (the above post).
> 
> Too often its impossible to tell whether he is being positive or negative because all his stuff is written in the negative way. When giving a compliment he uses sarcasm I think.


Theres not that much of a lack of communications skils but much more like a lack of "keep it short" and to the point ... and yes ... I admit that even when I write 2 pages on a row I'm doing a bad work at trying to keep it short. hno:
And then theres the _"lost in translation"_ usually associated with posting in your beloved shakespear's language. :lol:


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## Marek.kvackaj

no photos


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## Mostly Lurking

sotavento said:


> I was just trying to get an Idea of how many is too many for a single dedicated HSL to handle instead of this enormous amount of mainlines that the UK has that keep the traffic segregated nowadays. hno:
> 
> And you are wrong ... it's really a tramline ... full of 125mph trams ...
> 
> - too much traffic
> - small trains
> - beaten up and in the verge of colapse infraestructure
> - can't cope with capacity
> 
> Too much needs to be done to get this mess up to proper standards ... that's what I said. hno:


What on earth are you talking about now? Why are 125mph 9 carriage minimum trains 'trams'?


----------



## Republica

sotavento said:


> Theres not that much of a lack of communications skils but much more like a lack of "keep it short" and to the point ... and yes ... I admit that even when I write 2 pages on a row I'm doing a bad work at trying to keep it short. hno:
> And then theres the _"lost in translation"_ usually associated with posting in your beloved shakespear's language. :lol:


I understand. I think you are right. I forgive you


----------



## hkskyline

*Could Britain get some of its old rail lines back? *

LONDON, June 15 (Reuters) - More than 40 years since Dr Beeching broke the heart of train enthusiasts in Britain by slashing the rail network, plans have been lodged for a partial reversal of his cuts.

Train operators are pressing for a 500 million pound ($800 million) expansion of the network to meet soaring demand for rail travel.

Fourteen lines in England and around 40 new stations have been identified in a report by the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC) which could serve more than a million extra passengers.

"This report has focused on schemes which could be delivered relatively quickly," said ATOC Chief Executive Michael Roberts.

It envisages short links to or new stations on existing lines, and using freight lines as well as railway land left by the line closures of the 1960s and 70s.

"Many past studies have looked at re-opening old railways, but this one looks first at the market, not the map," said Roberts in a statement.

"It starts with people, where they live and where they want to travel. The schemes identified in this paper as having a positive business case would provide access directly and indirectly for a million people not currently well served by rail."

In 1948, at the formation of British Railways, the rail network extended to 19,598 route miles and 6,685 stations.

But costs were high and in 1963 Dr Richard Beeching published an efficiency report which led to the network being cut by around a third.

For train enthusiasts, still mourning the looming demise of steam railways in favour of the new diesels, the loss of so many rural lines wending their way through spectacular countryside was a crushing blow.

But although many lines became hiking trails or were lost altogether, much of the infrastructure remains and the ATOC plan envisages making use of it where possible.

Areas for the 14 new lines are:

Hythe - Hampshire

Brixham - Devon

Bordon - Hampshire

Fleetwood - Lancashire

Rawtenstall - Lancashire

Aldridge - West Midlands

Brownhills - West Midlands

Cranleigh - Surrey

Ringwood - Hampshire

Washington - Tyne and Wear

Leicester to Burton - Derbyshire

Skelmersdale - Lancashire

Ashington and Blyth - Northumberland

Wisbech - Cambridgeshire

Any decision on whether any of the plans get the go ahead would be taken by local and regional government, Network Rail and the Department for Transport. (Reporting by Steve Addison; Editing by Keith Weir)


----------



## sotonsi

^^ I posted about this yesterday, giving a few details that both the BBC and Reuters left out.


sotonsi said:


> Here's ATOC's PDF. Looking at it there are also some station reopenings proposed - Rushden (at Irthlingborough), Peterlee (at Easington), Kenilworth (with line doubling, and not as successful), Ilkeston, Wantage/Grove, Osset, Clay Cross/North Wingfield.


I looked in more detail at this. Some are new routes and most were closed after Beeching.

Hythe - this uses the freight route from Totton to Fawley. It will split the Romsey 'b' back again into Romsey-Eastleigh-Totton (now extended to Hythe) and Southampton-Salisbury. It won't be electrified.
Brixham- this takes over the Paignton and Dartmouth Steam Railway's tracks (allowing steam trains still to run). Extension of local services to Paignton.
Bordon - this would partially use a disused railway from Bentley. Services unknown, other than likely to be 2tph, with trains that terminate at either Aldershot or Farnham extended. May have half the Alton service, plus another service split between Alton and Borden. Likeliest, looking at the plans is 2tph Borden-Guildford.
Fleetwood - much of it would be a current freight route, but will have some new build. 2tph to Preston.
Rawtenstall - uses the East Lancs railway, and a chord at Castletown. Likely improvements to the tram in Bury to get better interchange.
Aldridge - this would extend Birmingham-Walsall services along a freight route
Brownhills - this uses a recently-dismantled freight branch from Walsall (maybe going to Lichfield as well).
Cranleigh - this uses part of the Beeching cut Guildford-Christ's Hospital. It will be served by extending the London-Esher-Guildford suburban service.
Ringwood - uses Brockenhurst-Wimbourne route, though it's blocked by the A31.
Washington - the Leamside line - a freight line bypassing the ECML from Durham to Gateshead.
Leicester to Burton - a freight route, Leicester-Burton, and maybe Derby, services
Skelmersdale - rebuilding route from Ormskirk, an extension of Merseyrail
Ashington and Blyth - freight branches to be covered with new services to Newcastle/Metro Centre.
Wisbech - frieght line. Oddly service proposed is Peterborough-March-Wisbech, which would involve a reverse.


----------



## sotavento

Mostly Lurking said:


> What on earth are you talking about now? Why are 125mph 9 carriage minimum trains 'trams'?


:lol:

That's a comment about this comment:



Manchester Planner said:


> Sorry, but what exactly is wrong with those figures you've just presented? Are you suggesting that trains aren't frequent enough?
> 
> I mean, take London-Manchester for instance - it's 3 trains per hour each way direct. That's plenty! It's an inter-city route, not a tram line! :lol:


Since the intercity run one after another then yess it's like if it was a tram line filled with trams one after the other and another one behind and ... I think one can get a relatively clear picture of what the hell I'm talking about here ... the main lines are packed with traffic. hno:


----------



## Manchester Planner

sotavento said:


> ... the main lines are packed with traffic. hno:


Erm, and? What would you rather have? The main lines ran under-capacity? All that's happening is that we're using the lines as much as possible. I don't see the problem. Clearly if we want to run more trains then the capacity will have to increase one way or another, and that's what is being discussed, with new dedicated high speed lines.

And no, the West Coast Mainline is not like a tram line! :lol:

Can I ask you - how much do you actually travel in Great Britain?


----------



## Buncles

sotonsi said:


> ^^ I posted about this yesterday, giving a few details that both the BBC and Reuters left out.
> 
> I looked in more detail at this. Some are new routes and most were closed after Beeching.
> 
> Hythe - this uses the freight route from Totton to Fawley. It will split the Romsey 'b' back again into Romsey-Eastleigh-Totton (now extended to Hythe) and Southampton-Salisbury. It won't be electrified.
> Brixham- this takes over the Paignton and Dartmouth Steam Railway's tracks (allowing steam trains still to run). Extension of local services to Paignton.
> Bordon - this would partially use a disused railway from Bentley. Services unknown, other than likely to be 2tph, with trains that terminate at either Aldershot or Farnham extended. May have half the Alton service, plus another service split between Alton and Borden. Likeliest, looking at the plans is 2tph Borden-Guildford.
> Fleetwood - much of it would be a current freight route, but will have some new build. 2tph to Preston.
> Rawtenstall - uses the East Lancs railway, and a chord at Castletown. Likely improvements to the tram in Bury to get better interchange.
> Aldridge - this would extend Birmingham-Walsall services along a freight route
> Brownhills - this uses a recently-dismantled freight branch from Walsall (maybe going to Lichfield as well).
> Cranleigh - this uses part of the Beeching cut Guildford-Christ's Hospital. It will be served by extending the London-Esher-Guildford suburban service.
> Ringwood - uses Brockenhurst-Wimbourne route, though it's blocked by the A31.
> *[*]Washington - the Leamside line - a freight line bypassing the ECML from Durham to Gateshead.*
> Leicester to Burton - a freight route, Leicester-Burton, and maybe Derby, services
> Skelmersdale - rebuilding route from Ormskirk, an extension of Merseyrail
> *[*]Ashington and Blyth - freight branches to be covered with new services to Newcastle/Metro Centre.*
> Wisbech - frieght line. Oddly service proposed is Peterborough-March-Wisbech, which would involve a reverse.


*YES.*


----------



## Tawny

From BBC today...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8107283.stm


The Javelin, from point to point

By Tom Symonds 
Transport correspondent, BBC News


On board the Javelin train

The grandeur of the newly refurbished St Pancras Station would make any hardened commuter feel optimistic about train travel.
But for thousands of commuters, the daily stop-start grind into the centre of London will feel very different once the new high-speed train service begins.
We leave St Pancras and quickly disappear into the two tunnels that take trains on the Channel Tunnel route. When we emerge, the view from the cab is of the Kent countryside flying past at 140mph.
Driver Mick Harding is enjoying himself: "It's absolutely wonderful. It's a lovely machine and very fast, which is what our service is based around. All the drivers love driving it."
From where he sits, it is possible to see why these trains don't need to slow down, or tilt - like their slower cousin, the Virgin Pendolino.
A high-speed line is high-speed because it has gentle banking curves, no junctions and few stations - the service will stop only at Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford before heading onto the conventional rail network to serve other towns.
An older line such as the West Coast has much tighter bends - hence the need to tilt - and numerous junctions and points.
The Hitachi class 495 train also has "in-cab signalling". Instead of the driver having to look out for signals ahead, the train's dashboard shows the speed he must to keep to. There is rarely a need to slow down because of other traffic ahead.
Speed at a price
Southeastern trains is fond of calling it a "bullet train". It is not as fast as Japan's fastest, or the French TGV. It is not as fast as the 186mph Eurostar.
But it is faster than the Pendolino at 125mph. Which is pretty good for a commuter train.

The 'Javelin' high speed train pulls out of St Pancras

We race past Ebbsfleet Station - it seems to be in the middle of nowhere, but is in fact located for its proximity to the M25. Southeastern believes it will in effect become a massive park-and-ride for London, just 17 minutes away on the new train.
The service will be branded "the Javelin" for the Olympics, during which it will carry visitors from St Pancras to Stratford in just seven minutes.
Wandering back through the carriages, the decor and seating is fairly standard. No power points for the growing legion of laptop commuters, but then they will be spending less time travelling.
As for the prices, they will be paying a premium for the faster journey. The standard fare from Ashford to London return is £40.60, the high-speed ticket will be £48.70.
The route under the Thames, near the QE2 bridge, and into St Pancras is the first link between Kent and London station.
It will also hugely improve the links from parts of North and East Kent, which are in need of an economic boost.
Towns such as Ramsgate and Broadstairs, on the tip of the county, will get a direct high-speed service connected using the existing rail network.
Pulling into Ashford, the Southeastern train company's people are pleased.
On normal trains, this journey takes 80 minutes. On the new service, it will take 37 minutes, but we've done it in less than 30.


----------



## TedStriker

No one ought to hold their breath waiting for any of the proposed ATOC routes to re-open. 

A tiny handful have a good chance of seeing the light, such as the Hythe-Southampton service, which simply will use an existing rail freight line. 

Others ATOC has listed just for a laugh. Take, for example, Brockenhurst to Ringwood. The potential users of such a new service would just be daytrippers and leisure travellers. It would make far more sense to look into the options along the road-clogged Ringwood to Bournemouth commuter corridor. Some kind of train, train/tram or light rail option would be ideal. 

In any case, any new passenger rail services in the UK will only come on stream with taxpayers money, which, incidentally, will be needed to subsidise the running of them as well. 

The ATOC proposals are just another story that ill-informed journalists in the mass-media like to excite themselves over, as I saw today, on the lunchtime BBC news. The presenter spoke as if she thought the viewers would be ignorant young children, and gave the impression that within no time many of Britain's closed railways will be open again.


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## Blackpool88

I've just read that a return from Ashford to St Pancreas on a Javellin will cost £40.00 and the fastest journeys will cost £48.00!!!!!! What-the-**** that is seriously expensive for a 37 minute journey, imagine paying that 5 days a week.


----------



## TedStriker

No offence meant to any Christians here, but Jesus Christ! 

That's almost as outrageous as the prices of pre-prepared sandwiches at Waitrose. 

Who came up with these figures? I know there are some seriously wealthy Kent commuters, but are there enough of them to fill the trains at these prices? I suppose, of course, many people simply claim their annual season tickets back from the companies they work for. 

Personally, I'd rather pay the air fare to India and then see what kind of train journey I could get for £40. I could probably travel for a week, see some wonderful scenary, people and food, and feel much happier. 

On a mile-per-mile (or km-per-km) basis, how do these forthcoming Javellin prices compare to other journeys in Europe I wonder? Perhaps we could start producing a league table...


----------



## TedStriker

In fact, according to the SouthEast Railway website, the price of the current day-return Ashford-London journey, bought on the day, using conventional trains, is £48. 

If I think £48 is expensive for a 37 minute journey via HS1, then I think £48 is mind-numbing for a journey that uses normal trains and takes more than hour. 

Clearly Kent is one very expensive place to live. It's probably more cost-effective to live in Lille and commute to London from there.


----------



## Tubeman

TedStriker said:


> In fact, according to the SouthEast Railway website, the price of the current day-return Ashford-London journey, bought on the day, using conventional trains, is £48.
> 
> If I think £48 is expensive for a 37 minute journey via HS1, then I think £48 is mind-numbing for a journey that uses normal trains and takes more than hour.
> 
> Clearly Kent is one very expensive place to live. It's probably more cost-effective to live in Lille and commute to London from there.


I'm sure that the actual cost when part of a season ticket or booked in advance is far less, probably half that if not less.

Paying on the day of travel NR fares are almost always astronomical.


----------



## Blackpool88

Blackpool-Manchester saver return on the day is 14 quid and I used to think that was a bit steep!! Glad I'm not a Kent commuter.


----------



## hkskyline

*UK to unveil plans to electrify two rail lines *

LONDON, July 22 (Reuters) - Britain plans to electrify two railway lines in a move designed to reduce carbon dioxide emissions and speed up journeys, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said on Wednesday. "Tomorrow I will announce a major investment in train electrification on two important lines, investment that will secure the modernisation of much of our railway infrastructure, creating and protecting hundreds of jobs," Brown told reporters.

He gave no further details, but media reports said the line between London and south Wales would be upgraded.

The Guardian reported that the programme would involve installing hundreds of miles of electric cables as well as alterations to tunnels, bridges and stations.

Work would be spread over a decade to minimise disruption to services, it added. FirstGroup operates the main franchise for trains between London and Cardiff.

Only 40 percent of Britain's rail network is electrified, a figure that lags electrical coverage in many other European countries.


----------



## hoosier

So I take it the Great Western Main Line will be electrified?

Did the privatization of Britain's railways under that asshole Major have something to do with Britain's crummy electrification rates compared to other Western European countries?


----------



## Republica

hoosier said:


> So I take it the Great Western Main Line will be electrified?
> 
> Did the privatization of Britain's railways under that asshole Major have something to do with Britain's crummy electrification rates compared to other Western European countries?


It can't be said for certain but yes, its most likely that privatisation did, seeing as since privatisation and the underinvestment that preceded it (why invest in something that the private sector will soon own they thought) meant only 8 miles has been electrified since 1995 i think.

Since 2000 the railways have received big investment once it was realised private companies were incapable of maintaining a safe infrastructure, so all the infrastructure has been effectively nationalised again.


----------



## 33Hz

In fact most of this should have been done in the 60s. I wouldn't count my chickens on this either, as I'm sure when the Tories get in this will be on the "review" list.

Anyway, the Guardian report was right and both the London - South Wales and Manchester - Liverpool will be electrified (assuming the project reaches conclusion). See: Great Western rail electrification package approved | Transport Briefing

The full DfT report is here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/rail-electrification.pdf

What is interesting is that many of the routes that were shown to have a positive business case by Network Rail in May are not even on the agenda for further review in this document. That seems a shame - if they are going to create factory trains then give them some more work to do! Network Rail should be free to go to the markets (when they recover) and raise the cash themselves if the government won't or can't provide it.

The other consideration is the IEP bi-mode, which seems to feature prominently in the plans here, is only capable of 2MW when running on diesel. That's not enough for a train that has 10 cars and needs to do at least 110mph when it leaves the wires at Newbury. My bet is they will either have to extend the wires to Exeter or there will still be all-diesel trains running into Paddington.


----------



## andysimo123

33Hz said:


> In fact most of this should have been done in the 60s. I wouldn't count my chickens on this either, as I'm sure when the Tories get in this will be on the "review" list.
> 
> Anyway, the Guardian report was right and both the London - South Wales and Manchester - Liverpool will be electrified (assuming the project reaches conclusion). See: Great Western rail electrification package approved | Transport Briefing
> 
> The full DfT report is here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/rail-electrification.pdf
> 
> What is interesting is that many of the routes that were shown to have a positive business case by Network Rail in May are not even on the agenda for further review in this document. That seems a shame - if they are going to create factory trains then give them some more work to do! Network Rail should be free to go to the markets (when they recover) and raise the cash themselves if the government won't or can't provide it.
> 
> The other consideration is the IEP bi-mode, which seems to feature prominently in the plans here, is only capable of 2MW when running on diesel. That's not enough for a train that has 10 cars and needs to do at least 110mph when it leaves the wires at Newbury. My bet is they will either have to extend the wires to Exeter or there will still be all-diesel trains running into Paddington.


Your 100% correct that most of this should have happen 50 or so years ago but it seems to be one of these quick little knee jerk reactions which governments seem to do every now and then. Aka as one news paper put it as the minimum that is required. Its the same with alot of things.

I'd argue that Labour should go because they didn't do this the second they came into power and the Tories shouldn't be in power if they try and pull it. I heard from the minster that the Manchester-Liverpool section is meant to start 'right away' but what 'right away' normally means is wait a year.


----------



## poshbakerloo

What will happen to all the DMUs that run on that line...I assume the HSTs will have gone by then, but the 166s and others are quite new-ish...


----------



## DHLawrence

They'll probably be used for increased service on other routes that haven't been electrified. That or send them to other countries, like the ones that went to Ireland.


----------



## 33Hz

The DMUs are scheduled to be moved to other parts of the Great Western network (Cardiff - Portsmouth or Devon and Cornwall) where they have older stock today.


----------



## Songoten2554

this is great finally electrifcation is happening to the great western Main line yay about time since the great western main line is already built for high speed travel it makes more sense to be electrified.

also i hope that the midland mainline will be electrified as well but i am glad the government is going ahead for more electrification but someone is right this should have been done since fifty years ago.


----------



## andysimo123

poshbakerloo said:


> What will happen to all the DMUs that run on that line...I assume the HSTs will have gone by then, but the 166s and others are quite new-ish...


Likely be sent to sit in a cold field for 73 years. In which time many train companies ask to lease them out but some muppet in government will be like 'ooh no, we can't do that' and there won't be a reason other than 'I've run out of oven chips, I must pop to Iceland!'


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## TedStriker

andysimo123 said:


> Likely be sent to sit in a cold field for 73 years. In which time many train companies ask to lease them out but some muppet in government will be like 'ooh no, we can't do that' and there won't be a reason other than 'I've run out of oven chips, I must pop to Iceland!'


Quite possibly the funniest line I've read on any thread! :lol:

Isn't the plan to cascade the 166s into the West Country to replace the less 'glamorous' DMUs? 

These in turn will be sent up North, where civil servants believe the people are so naive they'll think they're being done a favour. Mind you, as they still use Pacers up North, perhaps they are being done a favour...


----------



## Jay

Republica said:


> So thats what happens when Americans design your train!



American trains are generally much less aesthetically pleasing than European ones but still, that is not normal even on American rails. 

Hulking massive locomotives don't have to be ugly, Look at the GE Dash 9, personally I think it's pretty good looking. 










Not every Euro train is a walk in the part either, as much as I like vossloh's new euro 3 and 4000 trains they surely botched something horribly with this one.


----------



## TedStriker

Jay said:


> American trains are generally much less aesthetically pleasing than European ones but still, that is not normal even on American rails.
> 
> Hulking massive locomotives don't have to be ugly, Look at the GE Dash 9, personally I think it's pretty good looking.
> 
> I agree. And the European gauge locomotices that North America supplied to France just after WWII, along with those in use in the Balkans and Turkey, are also OK to look at.
> 
> So one wonders, what went wrong, first of all with the class 59s/66s, and now the new class 70?
> 
> 
> Not every Euro train is a walk in the part either, as much as I like vossloh's new euro 3 and 4000 trains they surely botched something horribly with this one.
> 
> Agreed again. Someone got a bit too arty farty with that one. But generally the Europeans get it right. The electric locomotives from Bombardier are totally spot-on beauties.
> 
> Didn't someone at GE think to look at those and get some inspiration?


----------



## 33Hz

33Hz said:


> The DMUs are scheduled to be moved to other parts of the Great Western network (Cardiff - Portsmouth or Devon and Cornwall) where they have older stock today.





TedStriker said:


> Isn't the plan to cascade the 166s into the West Country to replace the less 'glamorous' DMUs?


Bit of an echo in here - I posted that 3 posts above.



> Mind you, as they still use Pacers up North, perhaps they are being done a favour...


They also have Pacers out west. Twice I've had to endure early morning journeys of nearly 4 hours on the things to get to Cornwall. The day a 166 turns up for that will be a good day indeed.


----------



## TedStriker

33Hz said:


> Bit of an echo in here - I posted that 3 posts above.
> 
> I wasn't copying your homework, just re-spouting what I'd read elsewhere.
> 
> 
> They also have Pacers out west. Twice I've had to endure early morning journeys of nearly 4 hours on the things to get to Cornwall. The day a 166 turns up for that will be a good day indeed.


I feel for you. I caught a Pacer once many years ago when I was up North, and I thought I was on some kind of fairground park train. All that was missing was the music. 

How have they stayed in service for so long?


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## Accura4Matalan

The problem with Pacers is that they are not some endangered class nearing extinction, but actually a VERY common train, especially in the north of England. Nearly all stopping services are run by pacers. Rather annoyingly, and despite all the rail upgrades, Pacers will probably remain with us for some time.


----------



## TedStriker

You mean they were built too well. Isn't that ironic. Of all the trains one might wish to be crap, the Pacer turns out to be reliable. 

Mind you, Britain is not the only country which bought two-axle funfair trains. There's quite a few bouncing around Hungary, for example.


----------



## Mostly Lurking

Accura4Matalan said:


> The problem with Pacers is that they are not some endangered class nearing extinction, but actually a VERY common train, especially in the north of England.* Nearly all stopping services are run by pacers*. Rather annoyingly, and despite all the rail upgrades, Pacers will probably remain with us for some time.


That is just blatantly not true. There are less Pacers than Sprinters to start with.

They will not be with us too much longer - they can't be made to meet new disability regulations so will be withdrawn within six years.


----------



## TedStriker

Thanks heavens for disability regulations. 

Is there any chance disability regulations can be made to prevent train operators from fitting out carriages with 2+3 seating?


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## lightrail

Accura4Matalan said:


> The problem with Pacers is that they are not some endangered class nearing extinction, but actually a VERY common train, especially in the north of England. Nearly all stopping services are run by pacers. Rather annoyingly, and despite all the rail upgrades, Pacers will probably remain with us for some time.


Love them or hate them - the Pacer has saved many a small rural line from closure. The Pacer was based on a bus body, has a single axle drive, and no bogies - just two axles per car. They're cheap to maintain and to run. Oh, and there's practically no suspension, so just hope the lines are well maintained, because you feel every bump and jolt.

You should ride them on the Oldham Loop Line before it closes for conversion to Metrolink. The uphill grade out of Manchester Victoria - the steepest in Greater Manchester - really pushes the Pacer to it's limits - both the engine and the rail adhesion on two axles. Then there's the nice sharp curve between Hollinwood and Werneth, again the squeal as the fixed axles make the turn is wonderful. In the twin tunnels, you're treated to the loud hum of the engines through the non-existent carriage insulation. Then take the Pacer for a return trip to Victoria. Try to get one of the express trains out of Oldham Mumps, not having to stop at the stations, allows the train to really pick up speed - on the down hill, the trains picks up a lot of speed and bumps, clatters and bounces over the non-welded track. Sometimes you think it's going to bounce off the track completely. Thank goodness for signal checks and the approach signals into Victoria to the buffer stop platform. Oh yeah, the line is still signalled using semaphores - which I really like.


----------



## korund

*british pantographs*

I was wondering why there is only one panthograph on the most of british electric locomotives? In Poland, which is where I come from, electric locos come with two pantographs and under normal circumstances only the rear one is up. The main reason for that being when it gets damaged the other can be used. Does it mean that british pantographs are foolproof? 

Thanks


----------



## makita09

korund said:


> I was wondering why there is only one panthograph on the most of british electric locomotives? In Poland, which is where I come from, electric locos come with two pantographs and under normal circumstances only the rear one is up. The main reason for that being when it gets damaged the other can be used. Does it mean that british pantographs are foolproof?
> 
> Thanks


Up until the class 85 they were built with 2 pantographs. These first generation were subsequently rebuilt and one pantograph taken out, the space used for what seem to be gas jars, perhaps for compressed air or hydraulic pumps of some sort. From the class 86 onwards only one pantograph was fitted. 

I am sure the British ones are not foolproof, but they are reliable, and operationally are not too much of a concern. It seems to be more economic to have a spare locomotive, rather than a spare pantograph on every loco.


----------



## korund

As far as I know, the Class 92 is fitted with two pantographs. Since this is a dual-voltage locomotive running on 25 kV AC from overhead lines or 750 V DC from a third rail, both pantographs operate under the same power supply system (25 kV AC), don't they? If so, does the presence of two pantographs have anything to do with the fact that the Class 92 is designed to operate services through the Channel Tunnel, or are there any other reasons?


----------



## makita09

Yes you are correct. Its just speculation, but perhaps two pantographs are included to comply either with French/Belgian etc standards, or as you say in the channel tunnel.


----------



## Stainless

makita09 said:


> Yes you are correct. Its just speculation, but perhaps two pantographs are included to comply either with French/Belgian etc standards, or as you say in the channel tunnel.


I think this is the case, in the event of a problem on the train in the tunnel it can split in half and all passengers can move to whatever half can get out. So it would need a pantograph at either end.


----------



## Mostly Lurking

korund said:


> As far as I know, the Class 92 is fitted with two pantographs. Since this is a dual-voltage locomotive running on 25 kV AC from overhead lines or 750 V DC from a third rail, both pantographs operate under the same power supply system (25 kV AC), don't they? If so, does the presence of two pantographs have anything to do with the fact that the Class 92 is designed to operate services through the Channel Tunnel, or are there any other reasons?





makita09 said:


> Yes you are correct. Its just speculation, but perhaps two pantographs are included to comply either with French/Belgian etc standards, or as you say in the channel tunnel.





Stainless said:


> I think this is the case, in the event of a problem on the train in the tunnel it can split in half and all passengers can move to whatever half can get out. So it would need a pantograph at either end.


There is some confusion here.

The British Class 92 loco is NOT used for hauling passenger traffic through the channel tunnel. There is one loco at one end of the train.

Totally different to Eurostar and Eurotunnel car & wagon operations. These both have a locomotive at either end.


----------



## makita09

Yes, the class 92 is only occasionally used for passenger traffic, and that is on charter trips for enthusiasts, and only on the mainland in Britain, a few times a year.


----------



## pcrail

> The main reason for that being when it gets damaged the other can be used.


In case of a damage you can often not move any more even if you have a second pantograph. The reason for that is that you parts of the damaged pantograph are laying on the roof of the locomotive and would make a short circuit between the roof line and the roof itself as soon as you try you use the second pantograph. In earlier days the engineers grounded the catenary and walked up to the roof to clear the debris. Nowadays you are normally pulled to the nearest shed to clear up the roof. 

The main reason for still having to pantographs is for maintenance reasons. Each pantograph is only used during 50% of the time the locomotive is running. Therefore you can double the maintenance interval for the pantograph strips.


----------



## pcrail

> The main reason for that being when it gets damaged the other can be used.


In case of a damage you can not move any more even if you have a second pantograph. The reason for that is that you parts of the damaged pantograph are laying on the roof of the locomotive and would make a short circuit between the roof line and the roof itself as soon as you try you use the second pantograph. In earlier days the engineers grounded the catenary and walked up to the roof to clear the debris. Nowadays you are normally pulled to the nearest shed to clear up the roof. 

The main reason for still having to pantographs is for maintenance reasons. Each pantograph is only used during 50% of the time the locomotive is running. Therefore you can double the maintenance interval for the pantograph strips.


----------



## poshbakerloo

korund said:


> I was wondering why there is only one panthograph on the most of british electric locomotives? In Poland, which is where I come from, electric locos come with two pantographs and under normal circumstances only the rear one is up. The main reason for that being when it gets damaged the other can be used. Does it mean that british pantographs are foolproof?
> 
> Thanks


I thought It was because a lot of them dnt run backwards. They would only need to change them when they change direction?


----------



## makita09

poshbakerloo said:


> I thought It was because a lot of them dnt run backwards. They would only need to change them when they change direction?


Do you mean the locomotive or the pantograph? I don't think there has ever been a loco that can't run backwards.


----------



## poshbakerloo

makita09 said:


> Do you mean the locomotive or the pantograph? I don't think there has ever been a loco that can't run backwards.


They I don't mean reverse lol. I mean like running facing backwards...
Most english trains run in fixed sets. So pantograph would always face the same way, but they would just swap between which ever one is ar the 'front'.


----------



## makita09

poshbakerloo said:


> They I don't mean reverse lol. I mean like running facing backwards...
> Most english trains run in fixed sets. So pantograph would always face the same way, but they would just swap between which ever one is ar the 'front'.


Yes they do run in fixed sets, but there are no units apart from classes 390 and 395 that have two pantographs. So apart from them, all pantographs must be able to go in both directions. All other EMUs, when working in multiple, must have all their pantographs up otherwise whatever unit doesn't, won't have any power. Besides, even on 390s the pans can go in both directions, because they are sometimes seen using whatever is the front one, instead of the normal rear. I can only assume 395s are the same though I haven't witnessed this yet.

There are no locomotive hauled electric trains that have 2 locos also, (apart from Eurostar) so the pans on these must also be able to work in both directions.


----------



## Mostly Lurking

makita09, the Class 390s in normal service run with the front pan up, although either can be used. Which pan do the 395s use?

poshbakerloo, do you know what you are talking about?!


----------



## makita09

Mostly Lurking said:


> makita09, the Class 390s in normal service run with the front pan up, although either can be used. Which pan do the 395s use?
> 
> poshbakerloo, do you know what you are talking about?!


my mistake, I thought it was the rear, I got confused with TGVs. The 395s seem to use the country end, except when in 12car the first unit uses the front, the second uses the rear. I suppose this is so the vibrations in the contact wire have reduced by the time the second pan passes. But I don't think it really matters. I can't see how it would.


----------



## korund

pcrail said:


> In case of a damage you can often not move any more even if you have a second pantograph. The reason for that is that you parts of the damaged pantograph are laying on the roof of the locomotive and would make a short circuit between the roof line and the roof itself as soon as you try you use the second pantograph. In earlier days the engineers grounded the catenary and walked up to the roof to clear the debris. Nowadays you are normally pulled to the nearest shed to clear up the roof.
> 
> The main reason for still having to pantographs is for maintenance reasons. Each pantograph is only used during 50% of the time the locomotive is running. Therefore you can double the maintenance interval for the pantograph strips.



I couldn't agree more, but I also think that it depends on how much damage to the pantograph there is. Of course, if it's serious you can't move your train as that would represent a safty hazard to other trains as well. 

But, what if the damage is not that serious? Imagine a locomotive-hauled passenger train awaiting departure with a couple of minutes left. The driver lowers the pan (I don't quite know why but I've seen that many times) and then he tries to raise it up, but he can't because of the "raising/lowering mechanism" failure. Having a spare pantograph would, in this case, save time, since there is no need for a change of the locomotive, and, in the worst-case scenario when there are no other locos, it would save the whole service. 

I realize that my example may seem very unlikely. Still, it's possible. And of course, that's not the only reason why the Polish railways use locomotives with two pantographs. We employ a 3kV DC power supply system and locos with series-wound DC motors, so high current from the catenary is needed to get the train moving, since those motors have a low resistance field and armature circuit. When voltage is applied to them, the current is high(current=voltage/resistance). One pantograph doesn't provide a good path for such high current and another one is needed. Drivers use both to start a train. Then, as the train accelertes and the drag of the train decreases, the front one is lowered and the train continues with only one pantograph up. This is even more appreciated in hostile weather conditions, especially in the winter.


----------



## ukiyo

Why did hitachi make the trains only 225 kmh? The new shinkansens run at speads of 320 kmh with one line planned at 360 kmh.


----------



## Mostly Lurking

NihonKitty said:


> Why did hitachi make the trains only 225 kmh? The new shinkansens run at speads of 320 kmh with one line planned at 360 kmh.


A higher speed needs a higher gearing, meaning acceleration is poorer - these are commuter trains. Also, the first 35km out of London has a 140mph (225 kph) line speed limit.


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## sotavento

When the rail pickup s at 25Kv 50Hz one only needs 1 pantograph


----------



## Mostly Lurking

sotavento said:


> When the rail pickup s at 25Kv 50Hz one only needs 1 pantograph


I don't think anybody said anything different.

Virgin drivers have now been instructed to run with the rear pan up on Pendolinos instead of the front.


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## makita09

Over speeding in HSTs ended quite early, by the 90s it wasn't happening. The 4hr 03 timetable London to Edinburgh was achieved with the class 91s operating at 125 mph. East Coast plan to introduce sub-4 hours again next year, again with 125mph trains. The reason why speeds are so low at the moment is due to poor timetabling and congestion and the introduction of more stops than there were. Apparently they are trialling a swiss timetable system to develop the new one. But primarily the scots trains will stop less at Grantham, Retford, Newark, Durham etc etc, hence the faster time (each stop costs about 4-5 minutes).


----------



## Fatfield

Its still on according to this report.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-10919287

9 August 2010 Last updated at 17:07

County Durham 'first choice' for super trains

About 1,000 jobs could be created in County Durham if Japanese firm Hitachi decides to build carriages for "super express" trains in the area.

The industrial giant was provisionally awarded the £7.5bn government contract last year and must now choose a suitable location for the plant.

The firm said Newton Aycliffe was the "first choice". Another site in North Wales has also been short-listed.

If government approval is granted, trains could be in operation in 2015.

A spokesperson for Hitachi said up to 200 people would be involved in the construction of the new plant.

A further 800 would be employed in manufacturing the trains - which could begin in 2013.
'Biggest investment'

The trains are designed to be faster, greener and able to carry 21% more passengers.

Phil Wilson, MP for Sedgefield, said: "If we get this it would be the biggest investment in the north-east of England since the Nissan car plant in Washington.

"The North East is the place to have it. Everyone agrees we need to re-balance the economy.

"Public sector employment here is significant but that's not an argument for cutting public sector jobs, it's about growing the private sector as well."

The government is expected to make an announcement in October on whether to approve the Hitachi consortium plans and site location.

The consortium, called Agility Trains, also includes John Laing and Barclays Bank.


----------



## Maarten Otto

And still, I put my money on the cancellation of the project. The UK government simply doesn't have the money to fund it.

A traxx and coaches is much, much cheaper.


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## makita09

The government doesn't need money to fund it, construction is paid for by the Agility trains consortium, and then rented out to the train operating companies.

It will be cancelled for being the wrong train for the job.


----------



## K_

Maarten Otto said:


> And still, I put my money on the cancellation of the project. The UK government simply doesn't have the money to fund it.
> 
> A traxx and coaches is much, much cheaper.


Except for the small detail that Traxx can't run in the UK...


----------



## WatcherZero

The problem is when converting these foreign designs to work on UK gauge that its quite easy to make a vehicle wider than its present design, you just enlarge dimensions and strengthen a couple of key components.

Making a vehicle smaller than its design is much harder and more expensive, components may have to be minimised or relocated, clearances and accesses have to be maintained, etc...


----------



## Republica

I've had a look at the new timetable previously.

Nearly everywhere will get more trains in fact. There are going to be more services and a clock face timetable. I believe the time increases are due to a bit more speed getting between York and London.


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## makita09

Perhaps the sub-4hours edin-LKX will be only on a select few servicesm but then I suppose whats wrong with that?

Can you tell me is the increase in services at most stations partly due to there being more services? I understand there is supposed to be 5tph minimum services off-peak. Do you have a link anywhere to it?


----------



## poshbakerloo

I don't see a new high speed rail line being built to Scotland. Maybe to Birmingham but not much further due to costs and space etc.


----------



## Maarten Otto

WatcherZero said:


> The problem is when converting these foreign designs to work on UK gauge that its quite easy to make a vehicle wider than its present design, you just enlarge dimensions and strengthen a couple of key components.
> 
> Making a vehicle smaller than its design is much harder and more expensive, components may have to be minimised or relocated, clearances and accesses have to be maintained, etc...


I am aware of the smaller UK loading gouge. But I think Bombardier and Siemens would be more then happy building a new electric type for the UK if they get the order. A UK Railjet like train would be a perfect solution for IEP. Or a Class 220/221/222 with a power pack coach added.


----------



## makita09

One of the reasons cited by the DfT for not having loco hauled trains is the platform space that is wasted by the loco, which seems to be why they want rid of the class 91s on the ECML even though they are far from life-expired. IMO this is one point the DfT have got right. Lengthening platforms is particularly problematic as many stations have points at each end of the platform, making it impractical. An multiple unit is the sensible choice. 

I agree though it wouldn't be too difficult or costly for the manufacturer to convert Traxx to UK guage, especially in the numbers required.


----------



## Republica

makita09 said:


> Perhaps the sub-4hours edin-LKX will be only on a select few servicesm but then I suppose whats wrong with that?
> 
> Can you tell me is the increase in services at most stations partly due to there being more services? I understand there is supposed to be 5tph minimum services off-peak. Do you have a link anywhere to it?


I had a look about 6 months ago. I just had another look for it and it appears they have hit some problems in the timetable... IE. cost cutting has resulted in not all of the new timetable being able to be implemented. It was on the eureka section of east coast, but it has dissapeared now, I guess they are currently re-working it. The reason i'm so interested as this could either **** up my commute, or vastly improve it. Lets hope for the latter.

heres one link: http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/Latest-News1/New-East-Coast-Timetable/

It looks like grand central may be causing some problems as they appear to have been booted into the slow lane even further - it really frustrates me how the railways are clearly very congested already down and grand central trains are already second in line. the congestion on the railways had lead to all this slack built in to timetables which means slower and slower journies. I hope this new timetable can properly fix this, but i suspect itll just end up in regularly late (by a few mins) trains all over the place.


----------



## makita09

I don't see that Grand Central are on the slow lines? The only bit I don't quite get is that in the southbound timetable the Leeds service appears to be overtaken at Peterborough by the Edinburgh service, which requires the Leeds to use the slow lines on approach to Peterborough, and possibly afterwards if the Edinburgh train is delayed, very tight indeed. The Edinburgh train will have to follow right behind the Leeds train all the way from Doncaster to overtake it, and then to be 5 minutes ahead of the Leeds train at Kings Cross the Peterborough stop on the Leeds train must cost a minimum of 5 minutes + headway, at least 8 minutes. The slow line after Stoke tunnel has a linespeed of 70-80mph for 13 miles into Peterborough, this must account for the large retardation of the Leeds service, as the Edinburgh train will be just behind but be on the 125mph track.


----------



## TedStriker

Maarten Otto said:


> A traxx and coaches is much, much cheaper.



And more logical. 

With a push-pull format there would be no issues with linking the non-electrified parts of the IC network with London since at various points a change over could occur between an electric and diesel locomotive. 

I'm sure it would not take much for the manufacturers of the existing Continental electric designs to produce options specifically for the British loading gauge, and I'm also sure it would be pretty easy to come up with a 125mph design of diesel locomotive to cater for the trips to and from Aberdeen, Penzance and so on.


----------



## makita09

TedStriker said:


> ...and I'm also sure it would be pretty easy to come up with a 125mph design of diesel locomotive to cater for the trips to and from Aberdeen, Penzance and so on.


We already have 30...










http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_67

Pic credit David Black, found on http://www.eastbank.btinternet.co.uk/index.htm


----------



## Maarten Otto

Problem with the Class 67 is the poor acceleration above 100mph and it;s diesel.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

Despite the thread title (conjuring up in my mind Mark Twain's famous utterance "reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"), the IEP seems to still be alive, at least in the hopes of some in the north and northwest of England:

http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/92...r-flintshire-factory-to-build-new-trains.aspx

Anyway, putting aside issues of short term "value for money", I think one of the points of the IEP specs was to provide operating performance above any "off-the-shelf" push-pull schemes as well as lower running costs. As Maarten mentioned, any diesel locos will have lower acceleration than a distributed traction arrangement. Also, people tout the simplicity of switching between diesel and electric loco haulage, but you have to think of the costs involved- two crews involved rather than one straight through, not to mention separate maintenance facilities for each motive power type, time involved switching between modes (I dunno the operating schedule, but if you want to operate a competitive service, every minute counts, and sitting idle at a station waiting to couple/uncouple doesn't generate revenue), pathways for light engine moves, etc. Also, with a distributed traction train, you can concentrate all maintenance at dedicated facilities with staff specifically trained for that type. This has a positive effect on train availability.


----------



## TedStriker

Maarten Otto said:


> Problem with the Class 67 is the poor acceleration above 100mph and it;s diesel.




Although you're tight to highlight the acceleration and top-speed issues of the Class 67, you're not right to say the locomotive is unsuitable because it's a diesel, because I had been referring specifically to the fact that the push-pull option for the IC Express programme will require diesel locomotives. 

I'd imagine that a 3500-4000hp six-axle machine would be ideal, which certainly both EMD and GE are capable of providing.


----------



## makita09

k.k.jetcar said:


> Despite the thread title (conjuring up in my mind Mark Twain's famous utterance "reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"), the IEP seems to still be alive, at least in the hopes of some in the north and northwest of England


It will be interesting to see what happens, but it is likely the spec will be pared down to a superior-performing unit. I know that sounds like a contradiction but due to the uniquely peculiar approach to specification this is possible.

I will counter the rest of your points with the industry lobby's counter-claims, not as an argment against you but to elucidate on the argument that is going on in the industry as you are quite correct in stating the claims that were made for the IEP by the DfT. However it appears the DfT have not been all that realistic.



k.k.jetcar said:


> Anyway, putting aside issues of short term "value for money", I think one of the points of the IEP specs was to provide operating performance above any "off-the-shelf" push-pull schemes as well as lower running costs. As Maarten mentioned, any diesel locos will have lower acceleration than a distributed traction arrangement.


This particular claim has since been rubbished. Roger Ford has consistently questioned the figures provided by the DfT, as in the original specs for 30-40% powered axles the superior acceleration due to tractive effort runs out at about 30km/h, barely 10 seconds into the journey, with the installed power specified. As it turned out Hitachi's design has 50% powered axles because they saw that the DfT's spec could not actually guarantee required adhesion in adverse weather conditions to maintain the timetable, but even this is not going to be enough to support a claim of superior performance over an HST. The IEP is not specified to be a 400m Shinkansen type with 100% motored axles and 18kW of power but a 260m half-motored-axle with 2kW of power on windy rainy hilly twisty victorian railways. The superior power output of an HST will allow it to outperform the bi-mode IEP sigificantly over these sections.

Indeed the recent review of the project has also voiced concern that the IEP bi-mode will be slower over hilly Scottish railways north of Edinburgh than an HST, as it has less power on diesel mode than an HST, and at the linespeeds of 60-90mph distributed power makes no difference with the small amount of power available.

From the review;



> In relation to IEP specifically, the concern centres on the capability of a single diesel generator carriage to power long-distance through-trains (i.e. trains which will also have pantograph/transformer carriages), especially in the often hilly regions in Scotland and the South West peninsula where they would be most called upon in the absence of electrification. Although Agility Trains have committed to contracting to deliver the required journey times, our analysis of IEP bi-mode performance (distance speed graphs) causes concern around the technical capability of the train to deliver these journey times.





k.k.jetcar said:


> Also, people tout the simplicity of switching between diesel and electric loco haulage, but you have to think of the costs involved- two crews involved rather than one straight through, not to mention separate maintenance facilities for each motive power type, time involved switching between modes (I dunno the operating schedule, but if you want to operate a competitive service, every minute counts, and sitting idle at a station waiting to couple/uncouple doesn't generate revenue), pathways for light engine moves, etc. Also, with a distributed traction train, you can concentrate all maintenance at dedicated facilities with staff specifically trained for that type. This has a positive effect on train availability.


This is true but overcome by Virgin on a daily basis. I doubt this would be an issue for the London - north-Scotland journeys, as these are already over 5 hours and the 5-8 minute changeover is not going to put anyone off, especially if the new EMU has significantly superior performance which the electric IEP would have over the class 91s and HSTs (class 91s have even worse acceleration than the HSTs, with only 80t total locomotive weight, hauling 40t coaches instead of 35t ones on the HSTs, although they do start to blast away from the competition above 100mph due to their higher power, but by this point the electric variant IEP would be well away.)

The changeover issue may be of more concern on the busier London-south west route, which is why other options have been suggested, such as using diesel only variant for the whole route (its only going to be electrified to Newbury anyway), similarly cascading existing DEMUs such as Meridians or use the various other interim measures until futher electrification is authorised.


----------



## TedStriker

makita09 said:


> ...until futher electrification is authorised.


How much more expensive would the GWML electrification project be if the wires are put in down to Penzance?


----------



## makita09

Hard to say, its about twice the distance. Yet the marginal cost of extending is of course lower than stopping electrification completely after this batch and then starting up again a few years later. I can only hope that Network Rail's rolling electrification plan is authorised, it makes the most sense. However it is more likely that Aberdeen will see sparks, as it is already an aspiration of the Scottish Executive.

In fairness to the IEP programme, further electrification was not on the cards at its inception.


----------



## Maarten Otto

I think DafT is already looking for alternatives to the Super Express Train. Why else would Eastcoast introduce an "Intercity Eastcoast Pendoline" (IEP) from Edinburgh to Kings Cross and back from next year?

Press release by Eastcoast: 



> _
> EAST COAST ASKED TO COMMISSION NEW 11 CAR PENDOLINO TRAIN
> 
> Directly Operated Railways Limited, the company established by the Government in 2009 to manage Train Operating Companies that come back to the public sector, today announced that it is in discussion with industry parties concerning the possibility of commissioning a new 11-car Pendolino train on the East Coast Main Line.
> 
> Elaine Holt, Chairman and Chief Executive of Directly Operated Railways, and Chairman of East Coast, said:
> 
> “I’m very pleased that East Coast has been asked to commission the new Pendolino on the East Coast Main Line. Whilst a final decision has not yet been made, if it goes ahead, the train would add extra capacity to our fleet – and we’re sure our customers would appreciate the comfort and facilities that the new Pendolino has to offer.
> 
> “We’re currently talking with the manufacturers Alstom, and other key industry partners to understand the challenges and opportunities involved in the commissioning and certification of the Pendolino on East Coast.”
> 
> Under the plan, East Coast Main Line Company Limited (East Coast), the publicly-owned company which operates Anglo-Scottish services on Britain’s premier long-distance rail route, would take delivery of the new train in July next year. East Coast would operate the Pendolino in daily passenger service, principally between London and Edinburgh, for a period currently estimated to be nine months.
> 
> The new 11-car Pendolino Class 390 – which is being built by Alstom at its facility in Savigliano, Italy – forms part of an order for four such train-sets. Alstom started work on the new order in early 2009. The units will be very similar to the 52 Pendolino Class 390s, each of 9 cars, currently in service on the West Coast Main Line.
> 
> These train-sets were built by Alstom between 2001 and 2004 and are capable of speeds of up to 140 miles per hour*.
> 
> The 11-cars of the new Pendolino will be only slightly longer than trains in the existing East Coast fleet, enabling all current station stops to be utilised by the train without the use of Selective Door Operation.
> 
> Whilst the new 11-car Pendolino is being commissioned with East Coast, it would be fully integrated into the East Coast fleet and timetable – and would be maintained by the Alstom train care centre at Polmadie, in Glasgow.
> 
> ENDS
> 
> *Speeds are limited to 125 miles per hour on both the East and West Coast Main Lines, due to infrastructure constraints.
> 
> Alstom Transport UK Limited press office: Helen Connolly, 01788 545623
> _


Picture of possible livery: 
http://alternativerailways.fotopic.net/p66489048.html


----------



## makita09

Its peculiar because it seems to only be for 9 months, after which what? I've tried to find out since this information came out but to no avail. I agree that the most obvious reason for this must be verifying what a pendo could do over the route. On paper it is more powerful, even with its heavy tilt mechanism, yet it won't be able to use the tilt (one would assume) and still be limited to 125mph. _Perhaps_ the Pendo's in-cab could be programmed to allow it to use the limited 5th aspect in the Peterborough region to allow 140mph, but I don't really see how or whether anyone would bother commissioning that for a one-off.

On the other hand it could purely be for capacity reasons, as the WCML is predicted to have a surplus of seats with the new pendos, and the ECML a deficit.


----------



## 33Hz

makita09 said:


> This particular claim has since been rubbished. Roger Ford has consistently questioned the figures provided by the DfT, as in the original specs for 30-40% powered axles the superior acceleration due to tractive effort runs out at about 30km/h, barely 10 seconds into the journey, with the installed power specified. As it turned out Hitachi's design has 50% powered axles because they saw that the DfT's spec could not actually guarantee required adhesion in adverse weather conditions to maintain the timetable, but even this is not going to be enough to support a claim of superior performance over an HST. The IEP is not specified to be a 400m Shinkansen type with 100% motored axles and 18kW of power but a 260m half-motored-axle with 2kW of power on windy rainy hilly twisty victorian railways. The superior power output of an HST will allow it to outperform the bi-mode IEP sigificantly over these sections.



Unfortunately Roger Ford made a misunderstanding in his interpretation of the spec and everybody else has just followed him like braying sheep :bash:

The key here is that the bi-mode (as well as the pure diesel) are hybrid vehicles. That means that while the engine may only be 2MW, there is also a battery pack that can supply another 2MW to the power bus for a limited time.

The complaint has been that the train won't start on steep hills, yet a look at the data sheet shows the exact same 400kN starting effort as the electric and diesel versions. That's because it is drawing power from the battery to fully supply all powered axles for a few minutes.

When the train is running on 125mph sections, it will be under the wires and hence able to draw 4MW all the time. When it is working autonomously the sustained peak power is 2MW (i.e. after the batteries have depleted), but that is fine as the remaining non-wired tracks in Scotland and the West Country will be limited to 100mph or less, with the hills "smoothed out" by the charging and discharging of the batteries. In that respect, the last government's electrification programme fitted perfectly with the ability of the bi-mode (joined up thinking, in this country?!?)

I think what Hitachi designed was a nice piece of kit and it is a pity that it was nobbled by the campaign of a journalist who didn't get this new-fangled battery stuff.



p.s. I know questioning Roger Ford is akin to blasphemy around here, but on this occasion I really think he dropped the ball. Someone should've bought the man a Prius...


----------



## makita09

My understanding was that the battery was only to provide power during a failure so that the train can clear a section at 15mph instead of having to be towed, and that the DfT originally specified a small auxiliary diesel generator that Hitachi decided to replace with a battery. I've read all the documentation I can find and have seen no mention of using the battery to provide a further 2MW, I would be interested to know where this information is.


----------



## 33Hz

makita09 said:


> My understanding was that the battery was only to provide power during a failure so that the train can clear a section at 15mph instead of having to be towed


Absolutely not - and to be honest this is the sort of misunderstanding that is prevalent.


You should have a look at this presentation, specifically slides 4-3 to 4-6.



> Route Capacity - Better acceleration by battery power assist


----------



## makita09

Interesting, although I'm still a bit miffed at the 2MW claim. The slides state that it'll start off with battery power, but at low speeds 2MW would not be required to achieve maximum tractive effort. Do you know of any documents that that specify the battery can output 2MW?

Regardless of if you don't I'm minded to raise this in an email to Roger Ford as he has not mentioned much of it and I'm sure he'd be happy make a response considering how much time he's put into the debate already. I'm certainly miffed.


----------



## TedStriker

A story in yesterday's FT confirms that Bombardier has already begun looking into how the Traxx locomotive design could be made to fit within the British loading gauge. See: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0282e9d4-b396-11df-81aa-00144feabdc0.html. 

Apparently the D.o.T. is already discussing the idea of simply attaching new electric locos to rakes of Mark III coaches for GWML services, perhaps leaving at one end an HST power car.


----------



## 33Hz

makita09 said:


> Interesting, although I'm still a bit miffed at the 2MW claim. The slides state that it'll start off with battery power, but at low speeds 2MW would not be required to achieve maximum tractive effort. Do you know of any documents that that specify the battery can output 2MW



I can't see anything specific at the moment but we can derive it. This article states that Hayabusa had 48 Li ion battery modules of 1 kWh and weighing 20kg each. So that's almost a tonne of batteries for 48 kWh capacity.

That's actually not that high for Li ion energy density - pointing to the use of a chemistry called LiFePO4 or perhaps another that trades energy density for charge/discharge rate and life cycles. That makes sense because obviously you want a large number of cycles in an application like this.

Now this type of chemistry and other similar ones can support charge/discharge rates of up to 50C, or 50x the capacity, meaning 48kW x 50 or 2.4MW is possible. Also, some types have have a power density of up to 4kW per kg, so a tonne of batteries could output 4MW. So two different routes lead to that order of magnitude of power.

I'm not exactly sure which supplier Hitachi used, but 2MW is definitely possible for short periods.


----------



## Fatfield

*County Durham train plant bid put to government*









The new trains could be in operation by 2014 

A team of business leaders and politicians are set to put the case for creating train-building jobs in County Durham to the government later.

They will have a meeting with Transport Secretary Phillip Hammond in London about locating a rail assembly plant in Newton Aycliffe.

Hitachi was provisionally awarded a £7.5bn contract to build carriages and must now choose a location.

The estimated boost from the project would be £660m over 20 years.

The group will deliver a report setting out the economic impact on the county and region.

The project is dependant on Hitachi being granted the Intercity Express Programme Contract in the government's Comprehensive Spending Review in October.

'Massive impact' 

The company has indicated Newton Aycliffe is its favoured site.

Leader of Labour-led Durham County Council, Simon Henig, said: "This could be really very important to the future of County Durham and the North East particularly at a time when the public sector is going to be under very severe pressure in terms of reducing resources over the next few years.

"Here we have an opportunity working with a major private sector company to bring in a very large investment, a very large number of jobs to County Durham and the North East.

"Those opportunities don't come about very often and this is why we are going to try to persuade the government to give it the go-ahead which would have a massive impact within the county and regionally."

Up to 200 people would be involved in the construction of the new plant, with a further 800 involved in building the trains.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11379709


----------



## Dubbeldekker

"" The British newspapers have dubbed it "Axe Wednesday," the day that Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne finally announced deep cuts to public finances. "" 

So let's see what it's gonna be with the IEP ...

though I don't like those 'donkey engine' alternatives ... :down:


----------



## poshbakerloo




----------



## Dubbeldekker

ehhmmmm , like this one better ....


----------



## Dubbeldekker

ehhmmmm , like this one better .... 










Picture of the Day 23 August 2007

The first driving car of new Class 395 Hitachi 'Bullet' Trains was offloaded at Southampton Docks on 23 August 2007. The vehicle is seen in the rail yard after being lifted off a road vehicle frame used for transport.
Colin J. Marsden


----------



## Jay

woah they cancelled the javelin 395 trains? Bummer


----------



## makita09

Jay said:


> woah they cancelled the javelin 395 trains? Bummer


? All of the class 395s have been built and are in service - all 29 of them.


----------



## Fatfield

> 25 November 2010 Last updated at 07:00
> 
> *Railways to get £8bn investment*
> 
> By Richard Scott
> Transport correspondent, BBC News
> 
> The government has announced plans for £8bn of investment in Great Britain's railways.
> 
> It is buying about 2,000 new carriages to tackle overcrowding, electrifying some lines and pressing ahead with the Thameslink programme.
> 
> But plans to modernise the London-Swansea line are still on hold and it will be the end of the decade before the investment is complete.
> 
> Passengers also face rises in ticket prices to help pay for the investments.
> 
> New carriages
> The government had put many rail investment schemes on hold while it decided which it could afford in the face of budget cuts. Now we know that more than 2,000 new carriages are being bought, with 1,850 of them being used to provide extra capacity.
> 
> Those carriages will not arrive instantly though - they won't finish coming into service until 2019.
> 
> Some 400 of them are for Crossrail (the new line being built east-west across London), 800 for Thameslink (the north-south link across London) and 650 will be given to different franchises around the country.
> 
> Those 650 carriages will be used to serve commuters travelling into the big cities.
> 
> But the government cannot say precisely which franchises will get what.
> 
> 
> Although the new carriages will be given to the franchises, and represent good news for passengers - the train companies will want extra money from the government to run them.
> 
> So ministers will now negotiate with franchises to get the best deal they can - and that will determine in part where the carriages go.
> 
> Those carriages will increase capacity on the network by 17%, enabling an extra 185,000 passengers to be carried at any one time.
> 
> Thameslink green light
> The Thameslink project is also going to go ahead in full. This will eventually double capacity on the route from Brighton to Bedford, allowing up to 24 trains an hour.
> 
> Work on the scheme is already underway, but there had been question marks over whether the rest of the stages would go ahead.
> 
> It won't be completed though until 2018 - two years later than planned. That delay means the engineering work is easier, and cuts costs.
> 
> There is also news that lines in the north west - from Manchester to Liverpool and Manchester to Blackpool - are going to be electrified.
> 
> Electric trains have an operating cost roughly half that of their diesel equivalents. They are also more reliable and can fit more passengers on board.
> 
> Fare rises
> But the long-awaited electrification of the London to Swansea Great Western route still isn't happening.
> 
> The government is deciding whether to replace the intercity fleet with electric trains, or electric-diesel hybrids. Whatever it decides will determine what happens to the electrification of the route into South Wales.
> 
> Passengers face an average fare rise of 6.2% in the new year, with some commuters seeing their tickets go up by as much as 12.8%.
> 
> The government says these fare rises are necessary to safeguard the investment that has just been announced.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11834531


----------



## Fatfield

> *County Durham train plant decision delayed*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was hoped the Hitachi-built trains would be in operation by 2014
> 
> 
> The government has delayed making a decision on replacing ageing Intercity trains, which it was hoped would bring 800 jobs to County Durham.
> A consortium led by Japanese company Hitachi was the preferred bidder to build carriages and trains at a site at Newton Aycliffe.
> But the government will now consider a cheaper revised bid from Hitachi, as well as an alternative for a fleet of all-electric trains.
> A decision is expected next year.
> Hitachi was provisionally awarded a £7.5bn contract to build carriages, with its preferred location being Newton Aycliffe. The estimated boost to the North East economy was projected to be £660m over 20 years.
> But the scheme is dependant on Hitachi being granted the Intercity Express Programme Contract, a decision which Transport Secretary Philip Hammond will not now make until next year.
> A Department for Transport spokesman said: "A decision on this aspect will be made in due course."
> 'Frustration' A spokesman for Hitachi said: "We are disappointed that there is yet no decision on our bid for the IEP, and therefore on our plans to bring jobs to the UK.
> "We will be continuing our talks with the Department for Transport and will consider our position in the light of these."
> A delegation of North East politicians, union officials and business leaders lobbied Mr Hammond last month, urging him to approve the Newton Aycliffe factory.
> Sedgefield MP Phil Wilson, whose constituency includes Newton Aycliffe, said: "I am getting sick and tired of the government putting this off.
> "I can understand how frustrating this must be for all those concerned, including Hitachi.
> "I will keep on at the government about this until they make a final decision."
> Hopes for the work coming to Newton Aycliffe have been further dampened amid speculation the contract for new train carriages could be split between Hitachi and Derby-based train builder Bombardier.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11837345


----------



## makita09

From statement today by the government on rail spending



The Rt Hon Phillip Hammond MP said:


> ....Beyond these investments in the commuter railway, there are far-reaching decisions to be made about intercity services. The Intercity Express Programme, launched by the previous Government, identified the Agility Trains consortium as preferred bidder to build a new fleet of intercity trains. This February, my predecessors invited Sir Andrew Foster, to provide an independent assessment of the programme. Sir Andrew recommended work on the Agility Trains proposal and a detailed study of the alternatives. Following this work, the four options Sir Andrew identified, have been narrowed down to two. I have ruled out the option of requiring passengers to interchange from electric to diesel trains, recognising the value to passengers of preserving through-journeys. I have also ruled out the option of a wholesale refurbishment of the existing diesel “Intercity 125” fleet, some of which dates back to the 1970s.
> 
> The remaining options are, on the one hand a revised, lower cost Agility Trains proposal, which envisages a mixed fleet: some all-electric trains, and some electric trains which are also equipped with underfloor diesel engines. And on the other, a fleet of new all-electric trains which could be coupled to new diesel locomotives where the overhead electric power lines end. Both these options would allow us to preserve through-journeys between London and parts of the rail network which are not electrified. Both of them would deliver faster journey times. For example, we expect to see a time saving of at least 15 minutes, for the journey between Cardiff and London bringing it below 2 hours.
> 
> This is a major decision which will affect intercity rail travel for decades, and we must get it right. To address outstanding issues on choice of train type and further electrification on the Great Western Main Line, additional work will be required within the Department, with Agility Trains, and with the Welsh Assembly Government on the business case for electrification into Wales. I expect to announce a final decision on IEP, and on further Great Western electrification, in the New Year.
> 
> This package I have announced today has only been possible because this government has been prepared to take the tough decisions to protect investment in Britain’s future. I will make a further oral statement to the House on the issues raised in this statement later today.


----------



## Pansori

This thread seems to have died but I hope no one would mind if I drop a few recent shots of some suburban service trains from London. After all this is something we have to deal on a daily basis. 

Also January is coming (=horrendous fare increases) . I remember last year SW Trains said they were "freezing" fare increases since on average they didn't go up... incidentally in my (and other nearby suburban stations) station it went up by around 30% (yes, thirty per cent!). Tw%ts!

All pictures taken in Clapham Junction station in London and show trains of South West Trains and Southern Trains serving South and South West areas from London including Portsmouth, Gatwick airport and many others.


*British Rail Class 455 EMU*. Old emus used since early 80's. Refurbished a few years ago and will remain in service for at least a few more years. They are old and unappealing but I'd rather use these for the rest of my life than pay extortionate fares which gone up by something like 200% since 2004 due to "investments in new rolling stock" :|


Class 455 in Clapham Junction by jo.sau, on Flickr


*British Rail Class 159 DMU*. Diesel multiple units Made in early 90's

IMG_1686 by jo.sau, on Flickr

*British Rail Class 377 Electrostar EMU* (Bombardier), used by Southern Trains

IMG_1684 by jo.sau, on Flickr

*Class 450 Desiro* (Siemens) and old *Class 455*

IMG_1680 by jo.sau, on Flickr

*Class 458 Juniper EMU* (Alstom). They had some major issues with reliability a few years back. Not sure how they are doing now


IMG_1679 by jo.sau, on Flickr

*Class 455*, of Southern Trains. Same as SW Trains but different refurbishment. 

IMG_1677 by jo.sau, on Flickr


----------



## Pansori

*Class 450 Desiro EMU* (Siemens). It seems to have a good reputation because pretty much everyone seems happy with them. Nothing special but just simple, reliable and modern suburban or short distance inter-city trains used the world over from London to Bangkok and beyond


Single trainset has 4 coaches but it can connect 2 or even 3 sets so making it a 12 coach train for busy times

IMG_1675 by jo.sau, on Flickr



IMG_1674 by jo.sau, on Flickr


----------



## Pansori

*Class 456 EMU*, made in early 90's and used by Southern Trains.

IMG_1672 by jo.sau, on Flickr


IMG_1671 by jo.sau, on Flickr
Class 455

IMG_1666 by jo.sau, on Flickr

Clapham Junction

IMG_1662 by jo.sau, on Flickr


----------



## Pansori

Depot area with Class 450 Siemens Desiro


IMG_1658 by jo.sau, on Flickr


Class 444 and 450 (looking identical from the front but with minor differences from the sides)

IMG_1656 by jo.sau, on Flickr

Class 458 Juniper


IMG_1655 by jo.sau, on Flickr

Class 455

IMG_1652 by jo.sau, on Flickr

*Class 378 Capitalstar*. New air-conditioned suburban trainsets used by London Overground.

IMG_1649 by jo.sau, on Flickr


IMG_1645 by jo.sau, on Flickr

View from Clapham Junction towards Vauxhall and London Waterloo

IMG_1639 by jo.sau, on Flickr


----------



## makita09

Pansori said:


> *Class 458 Juniper EMU* (Alstom). They had some major issues with reliability a few years back. Not sure how they are doing now


Much better. SWT completely changed the way it did its maintenance, bringing a lot of outsourced stuff back in-house, such as full motor overhaul. They also took some advice from Selhurst depot where they maintain the other Junipers, the class 460 gatwick express. SWT now apparently have a much better working relationship with Alstom, which had a few issues though unsure as to whose fault that was.


----------



## Pansori

^^
Thanks for the info. Too bad I have never had a chance to ride one myself.


----------



## IanCleverly

This new bridge forms part of the Reading station re-modelling


----------



## poshbakerloo

I love the class 455s. Not very new or pretty but they are of the last older styles remaining. All MK3 based like the Sprinters. But some have a 507/8 added in the middle?


----------



## IanCleverly




----------



## Fatfield

Yessssssss!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/tees/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9410000/9410517.stm


----------



## makita09

Great news. Typically Bob Crow and the RMT talking crap though



> Bob Crow, general secretary of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, said: "If Japan can manage to ensure that the high-speed fleet that operates on its own railways are manufactured entirely at home, there is no earthly reason why Britain cannot either."


Yeah, we know Bob. We can. Obviously we don't want to. Duh.


----------



## Sarepava

Pansori said:


> ^^
> Thanks for the info. Too bad I have never had a chance to ride one myself.


I'm not sure you really want to. I had to travel on these at least once a week for the last four years and there were almost always dirty inside, with hard filth-collecting floors and 3+2 seating which made for a very cramped aisle. Also, the door alarms (when they finally opened after repeated punching at the button) were incredibly loud both inside and out. In fact the doors are narrower than almost any other type of UK train, especially considering that these units work the Reading line which has fairly frequent stops and gets very overcrowded at peak hours. Although reliability has improved, they still break down from time to time, notably the air conditioning.


----------



## slipperydog

Watching the match on television, and the commentator mentioned that Chelsea fans took the 'fast' train up to Blackpool for the game. Which train is this, how fast does it get there, how much does it cost, etc?


----------



## makita09

It would be a special put on specifically for the fans. Happens quite regularly, there's a large charter market in the UK.


----------



## Fatfield

makita09 said:


> It would be a special put on specifically for the fans. Happens quite regularly, there's a large charter market in the UK.


News to me. I follow Sunderland all over and the last charter train we had (I wasn't on it) that I can remember was for the FA Cup Final in 1992.

The commentator probably meant an express train. A quick check on National Rail reveals that it only takes 2h 51m, with a change at Preston, from Euston to Blackpool North.


----------



## makita09

For example

http://www.chelseafc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10268~2272612,00.html



Chelsea FC said:


> TRAIN TO SUNDERLAND CANCELLED
> Posted on: Fri 21 Jan 2011
> The train to Sunderland that would have been heavily subsidised by the club has been cancelled due to lack of demand.
> 
> The train had been arranged to help Chelsea fans head north when we travel to the Stadium of Light on Tuesday 1 February for the Barclays Premier League match.
> 
> Anyone who has already booked a ticket through Thomas Cook will receive a full refund.


Or http://www.rail-bluecharters.co.uk/case_studies/barrow_afc_to_wembley_footie_train



> Barrow AFC to Wembley: Football trains
> On Saturday, 8th May 2010, Rail-Blue Charters provided a direct charter train for 500 football supporters from Barrow AFC to Wembley Stadium for the FA Trophy Final against Stevenage. Barrow AFC won.
> 
> Both the outbound and return journey ran faultlessly and took around 6 hours each way.


or 

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....fans_charter_train_for_fa_cup_clash_1_2237386



> Train operator East Coast is to run a special football charter train to help Leeds United fans follow their team to London for their FA Cup clash with Spurs.
> 
> The special football charter service will operate from Leeds to London King's Cross on the morning of Saturday, 23 January, when United take on Tottenham Hotspur in the match at the White Hart Lane stadium.
> 
> East Coast commercial director Peter Williams said: "The football charter train will help many of Leeds' dedicated and loyal supporters get down to London to watch this important match.
> 
> "The train will be an additional service to the 32 weekday and 30 weekend services East Coast operate directly between Leeds and London King's Cross."
> 
> The football charter train will run from Leeds to London, departing Leeds at 11.40 on Saturday 23 January, and returning from King's Cross at 20.55 to bring fans home on the same day.
> 
> The train will also call at Wakefield Westgate in both directions, departing at 11.53 on the outward leg and 22.50 on the return journey.
> 
> The football charter train offers an alternative to fans travelling down to the capital via road transport.
> 
> Not only does the train offer a comfortable and relaxing trip to central London but it also avoids the restrictions and roadworks taking place on the A406 North Circular which is likely to affect those making the trip by car or bus to the match.
> 
> Special tickets for the charter service have been produced and are available via Leeds United's ticket service telephone number, 0871 334 1992. Tickets for fans travelling in Standard accommodate cost 50 and 40 for concessions, with a limited number of First Class tickets available from 60 - 70.
> 
> The football charter train will be operating as a 'dry train'. Under this policy, supporters are not permitted to take alcohol on board the train, and no alcohol will be sold on the train. Fans trying to board the train with alcohol may have it confiscated by the British Transport Police


----------



## Fatfield

They're the exception not the rule.

Leeds have a known hooligan problem so it would be prudent for the authorities to keep as many of them together as possible. Chelsea fans were heading to a game that they had no chance of returning from under public transport. Even then it was cancelled due to lack of interest. I also can't find any reference to a charter train to Blackpool on that site. Perhaps you can enlighten me? And Barrow were going to Wembley.

They're nowhere near as regular as you would like to think.


----------



## makita09

As I'd like to think?

Slipperydog posted something, going on what he said in it I assumed it was a charter. You gave the impression charters don't exist for footbvall.

Why is everyone arguing with things I haven't said FFS?


----------



## makita09

I'm imagining this too

http://www.rharchive.info/Issue260HIGH.pdf




Railway Herald Issue 260 said:


> Virgin Trains is working with Bolton Wanderers, Stoke City, Manchester City and Manchester United, the football clubs that are involved in the FA Cup semi finals over the weekend of 16th/17th April to ensure thousands of supporters can travel to and from London. VT has already confirmed it is running five charter trains.
> Those not travelling by charter services will still be able to travel by service train to both matches and extra trains are planned from Euston after the matches on Saturday and Sunday. However, with each Class 390 capable of carrying a maximum of 439 seated passengers, but with a crowd of around 80,000 expected for both matches, supporters are being encouraged to make use of charter services organised through their respective clubs!


----------



## Fatfield

makita09 said:


> I'm imagining this too
> 
> http://www.rharchive.info/Issue260HIGH.pdf


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

They're one-offs man. Get over it.


----------



## makita09

So they're not 'specials' or 'charters', they are 'one-offs', which means........exactly the same thing.

Stop arguing with nothing.


----------



## PortoNuts

^^Didn't find anything on that but people aren't usually happy with their commuting as we all know it.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *First Hull Trains ranked 1st in the UK for customer satisfaction*
> 
> *Yorkshire-based open access train operating company First Hull Trains, which runs 14 direct daily trains between Hull and London, is officially amongst the very best in the country when it comes to customer satisfaction, an independent survey has revealed.*
> 
> The spring 2011 National Passenger Survey (NPS) ranks the award-winning train operator joint first with Heathrow Express when it comes to customer satisfaction – with 95% of passengers stating they were satisfied with the overall service.
> 
> The result represents a 2% improvement in customer satisfaction for Hull Trains since last Autumn and is the highest level that they have achieved at any time since the company, which is headquartered in Hull, first participated in the independent survey. Out of 22 passenger train operating companies that took part in the survey, First Hull Trains has topped the table for the very first time and new managing director Cath Bellamy is delighted.
> 
> The results from the survey rate the company’s services against strict criteria measured by Passenger Focus, the independent consumer watchdog for Britain’s rail passengers.
> 
> Cath Bellamy said: “We are absolutely thrilled that our customers have rated us so highly in this independent assessment of the services we offer. It is a tribute to the hard work and dedication of the wonderful team at First Hull Trains that people think so highly of us and the services we deliver.
> 
> “I would like to say a big thank you to my team for their hard work every day and to our customers for their loyal support. That being said, we are not complacent and we will continue to work really hard to do things even better. Despite this shining result, we know we don’t get it right all the time.
> 
> “We remain firmly committed to doing the right thing for the people and communities we serve and providing a railway service that everyone can feel proud of. We are over the moon with this response and I would like to say a big thank you to everyone concerned.”
> 
> In January 2011, First Hull Trains introduced four fully refurbished trains having spent around £2.5m on an interior and exterior refurbishment in response to customer feedback.
> 
> In recent weeks the company has also introduced free, unlimited, WiFi, a brand new healthy options seasonal menus and a new timetable offering quicker journeys.


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/01/first-hull-trains-ranked-1st-in-the-uk-for-customer-satisfaction/


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Incidentally, First Hull is an open-access carrier operating with far greater freedom, without the gov't mingling with its business.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Rail Minister Theresa Villiers to mark £150m investment in stations*
> 
> *A multi-million pound project that has seen major improvements made to train stations across England and Wales is being celebrated this week. Minister of State for Transport the Rt Hon Theresa Villiers MP will be guest of honour at an event at Warrington Central, the 150th station to benefit from the National Stations Improvement Programme (NSIP).*
> 
> Since it was launched two years ago with £150m of Government funding, the cross-industry programme has brought better stations to hundreds of thousands of passengers.
> 
> To date, £61m of the £150m has been spent, meaning many more stations will see improvements in the next few years.
> 
> Projects include:
> 
> - Better accessibility, with more ramps and Disability Discrimination Act (DDA)-compliant facilities
> 
> - Better customer information screens
> 
> - Refurbished ticket offices and booking halls
> 
> - Installation of CCTV to improve security
> 
> - New public toilets, cafes and waiting rooms
> 
> On Thursday 7th July, Ms Villiers will officially unveil the work completed at Warrington Central under NSIP.
> 
> Led by First TransPennine Express, the train company which manages the station, the improvements mean passengers can now enjoy a new station entrance and refurbished station interior, including DDA-compliant windows.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/05/rail-minister-theresa-villiers-to-mark-150m-investment-in-stations/


----------



## thun

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Incidentally, First Hull is an open-access carrier operating with far greater freedom, without the gov't mingling with its business.


Your point being? Isn't that true for more or less all British operators? Hence, 1st in customer satisfaction in the UK doesn't allow comparisions to operators in other countries.


----------



## Suburbanist

thun said:


> Your point being? Isn't that true for more or less all British operators? Hence, 1st in customer satisfaction in the UK doesn't allow comparisions to operators in other countries.


Sure. We need to wait for results of other open access train carriers like NTV in Italy.


----------



## sotonsi

thun said:


> Isn't that true for more or less all British operators?


No - almost all other TOCs have required service levels and are very centrally controlled as to timetable, stock used and so on (though they can run additional services using open access rules). Open access providers simply buy train paths off Network Rail, hire trains and then run them.

When was the last time a normal TOC won this? didn't the now defunct Wrexham & Shropshire get it last year?


> Your point being? <snip sentence quoted above> Hence, 1st in customer satisfaction in the UK doesn't allow comparisions to operators in other countries.


I'm not certain about Suburbanist's point, but it probably has to do with free-market services that don't depend on Government are nicer to use as they don't have monopolies and rely solely on the passengers for income, rather than subsidy (though it's worth pointing out that several TOCs pay - and pay a lot - to run the centrally demanded services) meaning they have to have good customer satisfaction as the customers is where the money comes from.

With more certainty I can say that he wasn't comparing with any TOC outside the UK - only you have suggested that 1st in Customer Service in the UK might be used to make comparisons with outside the UK.


----------



## MattN

Also having read that it seems unlikely that the government has any real bearing on most aspects of service covered by that survey within DfT franchised operators. Are the operators not largely responsible for decisions regarding things like wifi, refurbs, food menus (not to mention other things like staff)? Admittedly I've no idea where rolling stock companies come into play etc, the system here is so complex. Many DfT franchises have done similar things to those I mentioned of course.

If we're talking about the free market vs state involvement perhaps we could talk about the 60% increase in London bus patronage in the last ten years versus the steady, constant decline seen both overall in the rest of the UK, and in the vast majority of individual areas including the other large conurbations.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Edinburgh Waverley’s new roof installed*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/07/edinburgh-waverleys-new-roof-installed/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Rail punctuality at 92.8% in June*
> 
> *Punctuality on the railways reached 92.8% during June, according to monthly performance data released today by Network Rail.*
> 
> The data for Britain’s train services covers the period from 29 May to 25 June 2011. This compares with 93.0% for the same period last year. The moving annual average (train punctuality over the past 12 months) is now at 90.8%.
> 
> The best performing train operator was c2c who ran 97.3% of their services on time, up from 97.0% for the same period last year.
> 
> The worst performing was Virgin Trains who ran 87.9% of trains on time, down from 90.4% for the same time last year.
> 
> Other operators who performed well include Chiltern Railways (96.3%), Merseyrail (96.7%) and London Overground (96.8%).


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/08/rail-punctuality-at-92-8-in-june/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *New international rail ticket travel desk at Leicester station*
> 
> *East Midlands Trains today launched a new international travel desk at Leicester station, giving passengers the chance to buy rail tickets for Europe and many other destinations worldwide.*
> 
> The new Trainseurope facility will sell Eurostar tickets, as well as tickets to and within most European countries, including Ireland, Portugal and Greece, plus the Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. More adventurous travellers can get tickets for rail travel in the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, India, South Africa, Egypt and Russia, including travel on some of the luxurious train services such as the Rocky Mountaineer from Vancouver.
> 
> Trainseurope was set up in 1986 to meet the increasing demand for foreign rail travel and is also a specialist in worldwide hotel bookings and car hire. East Midlands Trains ticket office staff at Leicester have been trained by Trainseurope to sell its full range of tickets, following the success of a similar facility at London St Pancras International.
> 
> Gareth Leslie, East Midlands Trains Route Manager for Leicester, said: “The international ticket desk at London St Pancras has been a great success and we are delighted to be offering similar facility at Leicester station where passengers can simply walk in and book.
> 
> “Our specially trained staff can provide a wealth of advice and book tickets for just about any rail journey in the world, from a simple multi-country ticket to the most complex itinerary in far-away countries, and even hotels or car rental. With our prime position in Leicester station, we’re ideally placed to become a reference for rail travel and to provide these fantastic new services for passengers.”
> 
> Trainseurope Managing Director Vic Allen said: “We are delighted to be working with East Midlands Trains to create seamless European rail travel from what will effectively be a ‘one-stop shop’ providing tickets for a passenger’s entire journey.”
> 
> The new range of tickets, which will be sold in addition to the existing East Midlands Trains ticket range, will be available from Mondays to Fridays at the new dedicated international ticket desk 1 in the main concourse.


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/11/new-international-rail-ticket-travel-desk-at-leicester-station/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *MP wants direct trains from Carnforth to London*
> 
> *The Government has been urged to allow trains to stop at the Lancashire railway station made famous by Brief Encounter. Tory David Morris said Carnforth Station should be included on the West Coast mainline route to boost the local economy. *
> 
> The historic station was made famous in the 1945 romantic classic starring Celia Johnson and Trevor Howard. Its mainline platforms were closed and removed in 1970 prior to electrification of the West Coast Main Line and the station gradually fell into disrepair.
> 
> But the local community pulled together to restore it and the Brief Encounter Refreshment Room and Visitor Centre was opened in 2003.
> 
> In a short Commons debate, Mr Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) said stations like Carnforth could be added to the main line if high speed rail was brought to northern England.
> 
> He promised that local residents would not become a "begging bowl" for public money. "We will raise our own funds for our project - that is unheard of but we can do this," he said. "We've already rebuilt the station from a shell and we can relay the platforms."
> 
> Junior transport minister Norman Baker said it was vital to consider whether a stop at Carnforth would work "operationally and commercially".


http://www.thelancasterandmorecambe...wants_direct_trains_from_Carnforth_to_London/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Amey awarded 5 rail signalling contracts across UK*
> 
> *Network Rail has awarded Amey five rail signalling contracts worth a total of £37 million, as part of a major investment scheme to increase the capacity, reliability and safety of the rail system.*
> 
> Amey has secured contracts in Yorkshire, Nottingham, Tameside, London and Devon because of its ‘ability to deliver integrated services’ – from detailed design, installations, through to testing and commissioning. This includes expertise in managing the planning and programming of possessions as well as installing new technology.
> 
> This new work symbolises a step change in Amey’s signalling portfolio and complements its existing national rail contracts – including the Multi Asset Framework Agreements (MAFA).
> 
> Steve Withers, Managing Director of Amey’s Inter Urban division, said: “Amey is winning a significant amount of rail signalling work because we provide fully integrated solutions which helps to generate efficiencies. Amey is now a leading national provider of signalling schemes to Network Rail. We look forward to working collaboratively with our customer on these schemes, which form part of a major programme to improve the safety and reliability of the network.”
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/14/amey-awarded-5-rail-signalling-contracts-across-uk/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Rail revenue sees growth at FirstGroup*
> 
> *FirstGroup has provided an update on trading as part of its preliminary results announcement on 11 May 2011.Since then overall trading for the Group, during the first quarter of the new financial year, has developed in line with management’s expectations. The company’s UK rail sector has seen strong growth with ‘like for like passenger revenue growth of 8.5%’.*
> 
> FirstGroup say the increased demand for rail services has continued during this quarter, leading to good volume growth across all of their franchises.
> 
> The Group say they ‘remain focused’ on retaining their leadership position in rail and continue to take an active role in shaping the future of the UK’s railways including through the newly established Rail Delivery Group. Discussions with the DfT on the proposal to extend the First TransPennine Express franchise are also continuing, the company said.
> 
> Tim O’Toole, Chief Executive commented: “I am pleased to report trading during Q1 of the new financial year is in line with our expectations. We are encouraged by improving trends in UK Rail and Greyhound and the continued steady performance in UK Bus and First Transit.
> 
> “We will continue to build on our record of strong cash generation and are targeting a net cash inflow of £150m in 2011/12. The Board is committed to its key priorities of increased cash generation to support capital investment, debt reduction and dividend growth of at least 7% per annum.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/15/rail-revenue-sees-growth-at-firstgroup/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Bristol to London rail line set to be best in UK*
> 
> *Train passengers in Bristol could reach London Paddington in one hour 20 minutes within five years after Transport Secretary Philip Hammond officially launched a project to make the Great Western Main Line the best in the UK.*
> 
> Speaking at the launch in London yesterday, Network Rail Chief Executive David Higgins said the £5bn investment in electrification and resignalling and the procurement of new trains would make the route ‘the most advanced inter-city railway in Britain’, providing capacity to cater for a predicted 51% increase in passengers over the next 30 years.
> 
> “The case for developing the Great Western Main Line into a railway for the 21st century is above all an economic one,” said Mr Hammond. "The transformational 10-year programme that Network Rail is leading will do more than help to meet projected demand for increased passenger and freight journeys; it will deliver a long-term boost to the economies of Wales and the South West.”
> 
> Apart from the remodelling of the key junction at Reading which is already underway, work will begin with renewal of the signalling between London and Bristol by end of 2011, making the infrastructure ready for electrification. Electrification will pave the way for the introduction of about 70 new Super Express Trains.
> 
> Meanwhile, Mark Hopwood, the managing director of First Great Western, confirmed talks were under way about revamping Brunel’s Temple Meads station. Speaking to the Bristol Evening Post, he said: “We are talking about increasing the number of services between Bristol and London from two to four every hour and getting rid of the need for passengers to stand on our trains.
> 
> “Temple Meads is a lovely station but once these improvements are introduced we are talking about a large increase in passenger numbers. We will have to make improvements to the station in terms of access and also a general refurbishment. The scale of this work means that it is going to be challenging time for everyone involved but it is a challenge worth fighting for.”


http://www.bristol247.com/2011/07/15/bristol-to-london-rail-line-set-to-be-best-in-uk-45326/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Rail services resume as Arnside Viaduct reopens*
> 
> *Arnside Viaduct reopened on schedule this morning after a 16-week closure during which Network Rail completely rebuilt the deck of the 155 year old structure.*
> 
> Jo Kaye, Network Rail’s route director, said passengers are now reaping the benefits of the work: “The first thing regular passengers will notice is how quiet the ride is over the viaduct compared with before. We have taken away the old jointed track and replaced it with continuous rails. Not only is this quieter but it is also makes the ride over the viaduct a lot smoother. In due course we will be doubling the speed of trains over the viaduct which could lead to reduced journey times in future timetables.”
> 
> Site compounds were set up at either end of the viaduct, which closed at the end of March. Old material was taken away in the Grange direction and the new decks brought in from the Arnside compound. Working on one line at a time, the railway tracks were removed to expose the viaduct decks, which were cut into sections, lifted out by special road/rail machines and taken away to the Grange compound.
> 
> Special gantry cranes were then erected which moved along the viaduct lifting the new deck units into position before base plates were bolted in place to take the new continuously welded track.
> 
> The type of base plates and track used mean a quieter, smoother ride for passengers and less maintenance for both Network Rail and train operators. Having completed the line towards Barrow, the process was reversed to renew the viaduct in the Carnforth and Lancaster direction.
> 
> The 30 mph speed restriction is due to be removed after a settling in period, and the speed of trains over the viaduct is expected to be increased to 60 mph in the New Year.


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/18/rail-services-resume-as-arnside-viaduct-reopens/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *New Alstom Pendolino train to enter service with Virgin Trains*
> 
> *A new 125mph Pendolino train, which will enter service next week, has been formally handed over to Virgin Trains by train builder Alstom. Leased by Virgin Trains from rolling stock owner Angel Trains, the train will enter service next week.*
> 
> Virgin Trains’ Chief Operating Officer Chris Gibb accepted the train from Alstom Transport UK Managing Director, Paul Robinson and Malcolm Brown, Angel Trains’ Chief Executive, at Alstom’s Edge Hill Traincare Centre in Liverpool on 12 July.
> 
> The new train has undergone extensive testing over the last few months and will now be used to boost capacity of the busy West Coast Main Line, where passenger numbers have doubled to over 28 million in the past six years alone – making it the fastest growing franchise.
> 
> Its use on the West Coast Main Line is a result of close co-operation between Virgin Trains and the Department for Transport. The agreement means that the 439-seat train will run on Virgin Trains’ busiest routes, and enable more capacity to be provided on other routes.
> 
> The new train will allow additional seats to be provided on the busy Birmingham-Scotland and London-Glasgow routes, which have seen growth of more than 30% in the last two years. It will provide 183 more seats than are currently available on the Super Voyagers that serve the Birmingham-Scotland route.
> 
> A five-carriage Super Voyager will then be transferred to services between London and North Wales, meaning that some of the busiest trains on the route will now have ten carriages.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/14/new-alstom-pendolino-train-to-enter-service-with-virgin-trains/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Redevelopment of Birmingham New Street takes another step forward*
> 
> *The redevelopment of Birmingham New Street will take another step forward next week as engineers start preparatory work to create the redeveloped station’s stunning stainless steel façade.*
> 
> Designed to reflect the movement of the city and the station, the 16,000 metre façade will be installed from early 2012 onwards and is featured in a new animated fly through film released today for the first time.
> 
> Chris Montgomery, project director for Network Rail said: “The new façade will turn the redeveloped New Street station into an instantly recognisable landmark for Birmingham and the West Midlands when it is complete in 2015. In the meantime, we have a huge engineering challenge to safely install the steel onto the station building and we’ll be working closely with our partners to minimise any disruption to people and businesses in the city.”
> 
> Mike Whitby, leader of Birmingham City Council, said: “With work beginning on the cladding, now we really are starting to move forward to a phase of the project which will be highly visible, and should instil a real sense of confidence and pride throughout the city at the transformational changes which are taking place.”
> 
> The first section to be clad will be the north face of the station building along Stephenson Street, and a half road closure will come into operation on Monday 25 July 2011 to allow preparatory work to be carried out safely.
> 
> *The work will take place in three phases:*
> 
> - Removing sections of the existing concrete panels on the station building to survey and establish fixing points for the facade
> 
> - Supporting structural steel work is then attached to the building
> Finally, the stainless steel cladding will be attached to the supporting steelwork.
> 
> - While Stephenson Street will remain open to traffic, the half road closure means that three bus stops on Stephenson St will close on Sunday 24 July.
> 
> Centro has been working to make sure bus passengers are kept informed of how these changes affect their journeys. The 35, 45, 47, 61, 63, 80 services will instead stop a few yards away at the nearest existing bus stop in Navigation Street. Those catching the 81, 82, 87, 89, 120, 127 and 128 services should use the existing stops for these services in either Corporation Street or Hill Street.


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/22/redevelopment-of-birmingham-new-street-takes-another-step-forward/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *One millionth passenger for the Maritime Line*
> 
> *The Maritime Line between Truro and Falmouth has carried its millionth passenger since the train service was doubled in May 2009. The million journeys made between mid May 2009 and now, contrasts with the 579,081 journeys made in the two years prior to the service improvement, a increase of around 60%.*
> 
> 2011 has already seen 18.6% more journeys than last year with over a quarter of a million (256,407) made between January and the end of June.
> 
> The doubling of the train service was made possible thanks to a Cornwall Council led scheme costing £7.8m, which included £4.67m from ERDF (European Regional Development Fund) Convergence, £2.50m from Cornwall Council and £600,000 from Network Rail.
> 
> Penryn station was completely rebuilt and the new passing loop and associated signalling installed to allow trains to run every 30 minutes which they do throughout the day, Monday to Saturday, with hourly trains on Sundays.


http://www.rail.co/2011/07/29/one-millionth-passenger-for-the-maritime-line/


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ The problem with this line of reasoning (what about the cost of lost jobs by sending the order abroad) is that, applied in practice, they can trigger a commercial war in which everybody loses.

For instance, what if Germans, furious that their companies can't manufacture and export to UK but have to manufacture in UK, start retaliating by imposing barriers on London City's banks and consultancy firms doing business in Germany? And then have the French join the brawl.

The net end result of those commercial wars are higher costs and diminished markets for everyone. Sure, on the very short term there might be some advantages, but in the long run, everybody loses.

Moreover, German wages are not slave-worth Chinese or Vietnamese wages. Nor are, AFAIK, German workers explored to dire poverty to make cheap products. It is just a matter German manufacturing is more competitive in general than British, whilst British banking - for instance - is in general more competitive than German.

Corruption should be investigated, though. It is another issue.

As for better credit rating, that is company's merit. You can't punish a company because it gets cheaper money on the market (gov't money is another issue, again).


----------



## Dobbo

Perhaps. I feel that protecting a domestic (and arguably strategic) industry is sufficient of an objective justification.

I doubt it would raise any eyebrows here if the ball were on the other foot.


----------



## flierfy

greentrainman said:


> Class 379 delivered and running ahead of schedule. Just shows how good Bombardier are at building trains. So why do the Government seem determined to give the next big order to Siemens in Germany and put 1400 skilled British workers out of a job? I am not one of them, so I have no vested interest, but I do care about building our trains in our country, *like the* French, *Germans*, Italians, Spanish, etc etc *do in theirs*, in spite of the ridiculous European rules which were brought in for everyone to ignore except us! Come on Bombardier, love your Electrostars!


No, they don't. At least not completely. There are lots of trams and trainsets running on german tracks which haven't been built in Germany. So, the UK is far from being to only one who buys abroad.


----------



## poshbakerloo

I've been very impressed with the Class 379!


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Many small rural rail lines see resurgence in popularity*
> 
> *There has been a surge in the number of people using many small, rural rail lines, with passenger numbers on some routes almost doubling in the last few years, according to figures published by the Association of Train operating Companies (ATOC).*
> 
> The rise in popularity of branch and Community Rail Partnership lines – smaller lines that branch off the mainline rail network into rural towns and villages – reflects the impact of the ‘staycation’ trend over recent years as people have increasingly chosen to holiday in the UK.
> 
> Many of the fastest-growing branch lines connect to seaside resorts and towns, and show spikes during the summer months.
> 
> However, train companies also report that growing numbers of local residents are opting to use trains that run on branch lines to get to and from work or simply to get out and about. Local and rural rail journeys now total around 40million a year.
> 
> Community Rail Partnerships, which comprise operators, the voluntary sector and local authorities in an area, have also had considerable success in promoting smaller community lines, providing better rail services and helping rural regeneration.
> 
> From April 2007 to April 2011, passenger journeys from:
> 
> - Truro to Falmouth branch line rose by 91% (by 22% in the last year)
> 
> - Bristol to Severn Beach branch lines rose by 90% (by 19% in the last year)
> 
> - Derby to Matlock branch line rose by 86% (by 20% in the last year)
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/08/19/many-small-rural-rail-lines-see-resurgence-in-popularity/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *West Coast railway swells UK state coffers*
> 
> *The government has received a record payment from a long-distance rail operator, with Virgin Trains paying £110m for running the London to Glasgow service last year.*
> 
> The West Coast railway line, which carries 28m passengers a year between London and Glasgow, is now the most profitable long-distance franchise in Britain after Virgin turned a £40m subsidy received from the government last year into a £110m payment on March 31.
> 
> Virgin said income in previous years had been affected by substantial disruption to the West Coast line, which caused cancellations to weekend services while £9bn of new track and equipment was being installed. Passenger numbers have also more than doubled over the past six years as more frequent and punctual trains resulted in Virgin stealing market share from airlines.
> 
> The turnround at West Coast reverses a prolonged period during which Virgin was subsidised to run the service. The Department for Transport is obliged to cover a proportion of train operators’ losses if their revenues are below target, and Virgin, which runs the railway line in a 50-50 joint venture with Stagecoach, had received subsidies totalling £1.4bn over the 14-year life of the franchise so far. The group said most of this was paid directly to Network Rail in track access charges.
> 
> Analysts said the West Coast payment compared favourably with earnings from the traditionally more profitable commuter services. South West Trains, which runs between Waterloo station in London and the stockbroker belt, earned the government about 150m in the year to 31 March, while First Great Western, which carries passengers between London Paddington and the West Country, Wales and Oxford, paid £106m to the government over a similar period.
> 
> Douglas McNeill, analyst at Charles Stanley Securities, said: “The Department for Transport traditionally views London commuter franchises as its biggest and most reliable revenue streams. But having endured the troubled years of the track upgrade, West Coast is now beginning to contribute cash on a comparable scale.”
> 
> The payment will raise the stakes in what looks to be an intense bidding war for the West Coast franchise. A shortlist of four bidders is contesting the contract, which is set to be relet in January 2013. Abellio, the Dutch-owned operator, SNCF, the French state rail company, and FirstGroup are all competing with Virgin, which is keen to retain the franchise it has run with Stagecoach since the line was first privatised in 1997.
> 
> The payment to the transport department will bolster government attempts to shift the burden of paying for Britain’s congested railway service from the taxpayer to passengers. Government support for the industry has dropped sharply over the past five years, falling from £6.31bn in 2006-07 to £3.96bn in 2010-11, according to figures from the Office for Rail Regulation. But the government is keen to raise that further and on Tuesday announced that rail fares would rise by an average of 8 per cent in January.
> 
> Virgin said passenger revenues rose 11 per cent to £753m in the year to March 31, while pre-tax profit rose to £39.9m. A £32.5m dividend will be paid to shareholders, of which Virgin’s share is 51 per cent.


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9ebe5cd0-c744-11e0-a9ef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1VaDF5cdq


----------



## Mackem

I do not consider corruption to be a cheap shot. I agree that all firms will sail close to the mark when they are in fierce competition - but what Siemens have done should not be ignored.
[/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting that the bid was won on the basis of this ?

Supporting British industry could be difficult if you take corruption into account for government contracts, after all BAE, British Airways and Virgin have all been convicted for price fixing and operating slush funds. Surely to not have competition would allow a situation where the sole supplier would charge excessively for an inferior product ?


----------



## Dobbo

Mackem said:


> I do not consider corruption to be a cheap shot. I agree that all firms will sail close to the mark when they are in fierce competition - but what Siemens have done should not be ignored.
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting that the bid was won on the basis of this ?
> 
> Supporting British industry could be difficult if you take corruption into account for government contracts, after all BAE, British Airways and Virgin have all been convicted for price fixing and operating slush funds. Surely to not have competition would allow a situation where the sole supplier would charge excessively for an inferior product ?


No. 

I agree - i do not have an issue with Siemens per se - but there are a number of objective reasons why they should not have won the bid. That it also is to the detriment of UK industry makes it seem all the more ridiculous!


----------



## Sopomon

Dobbo said:


> No.
> 
> I agree - i do not have an issue with Siemens per se - but there are a number of objective reasons why they should not have won the bid. That it also is to the detriment of UK industry makes it seem al the more ridiculous!


I doubt that the Government would have made the decicion that they have come to if those objective reasons were actually objective and obvious


----------



## Dobbo

Sopomon said:


> I doubt that the Government would have made the decicion that they have come to if those objective reasons were actually objective and obvious


Such as - I am not sure what you are getting at?

Remember that the choice was made on a no-names basis (i.e. "Bid A or Bid B" as opposed to "Bombardier or Siemens") and it was based on accounding for factors laid down in the tendering process.

The point is that factors which are relevant, objective and of fundamental importance to a bidding teams ability to deliver the product and (more importantly) to "UK Plc" were not accounted for during this process. 

At best that is a flawed process and i am not sure why the Government are digging their heels in when they have a route out... I suspect that they have already written off the East Midlands in the next General Election!!


----------



## Sopomon

Dobbo said:


> Such as - I am not sure what you are getting at?
> 
> Remember that the choice was made on a no-names basis (i.e. "Bid A or Bid B" as opposed to "Bombardier or Siemens") and it was based on accounding for factors laid down in the tendering process.
> 
> The point is that factors which are relevant, objective and of fundamental importance to a bidding teams ability to deliver the product and (more importantly) to "UK Plc" were not accounted for during this process.
> 
> At best that is a flawed process and i am not sure why the Government are digging their heels in when they have a route out... I suspect that they have already written off the East Midlands in the next General Election!!


A no-names basis is probably the best way for the tender to have been carried out, for if it were decided on the principles of "UK PLC" consumers would likely have been presented with an option that costs more and may even be of lower quality (theoretically). It's quite basic economics that shows protectionism (in this case "UK PLC" ideal) simply makes things more expensive for the consumer. (I could even rope up my old notes from Economic classes to illustrate.)

If Bombardier, in an anonymous bidding process, could not win the bid through the merits of its own, then why should it win based simply off the ropey idea that it is in some way helping the ideal of UK PLC? That kind of behaviour has no economic sense behind it, and more often than not is to the detriment of the economy as a whole.


----------



## K_

Dobbo said:


> I agree that there is no divine right for the UK to retain this manufacturing ability, but there are rational justifications. For example, whilst the rolling stock may (or may not - we do not know for sure) be more expensive from Bombardier, the cost to the UK would be higher due to lost tax revenue and increased benefit/jobseeker payments. I am sure we are all familiar with those arguments.


I am familiar with the argument. Enough to know that it is wrong...


----------



## Dobbo

Sopomon said:


> A no-names basis is probably the best way for the tender to have been carried out, for if it were decided on the principles of "UK PLC" consumers would likely have been presented with an option that costs more and may even be of lower quality (theoretically). It's quite basic economics that shows protectionism (in this case "UK PLC" ideal) simply makes things more expensive for the consumer. (I could even rope up my old notes from Economic classes to illustrate.)
> 
> If Bombardier, in an anonymous bidding process, could not win the bid through the merits of its own, then why should it win based simply off the ropey idea that it is in some way helping the ideal of UK PLC? That kind of behaviour has no economic sense behind it, and more often than not is to the detriment of the economy as a whole.


I agree a no-names basis is the correct way to tender. I also think that the tender process should account for all relevant factors - which this one has not done.

For avoidance of doubt - I beleive that socio-economic factors shold be included, in addition to technical and financial ones.

If Siemens proposal is still stronger, then so be it. 

Economic theory is all well and good on paper, but it sounds less appealing when it detrimentally affects people's lives. This is an imperfect market after all! :lol:


----------



## Suburbanist

Dobbo said:


> For avoidance of doubt - I beleive that socio-economic factors shold be included, in addition to technical and financial ones.


One thing is to include conditions like lack of slave labor in Chinese exports, or environmental compliance. Other thing is to argue that money should stay in UK, not Germany, as conditions of manufacturing in Germany certainly are decent for UK standards.

That might be tempting ("contract money will generate jobs and taxes here, not here"), but it would trigger a commercial war. Imagine if, in retaliation, Germany shuns out a levy on London City banks doing business in Germany because "we want to keep our money in German-based banks to generate wages and taxes in Germany". 

In an integrated economy like that of EU, the net result of a broader market is that, as a whole, EU gains by having services and goods purchased/delivered/manufactures at the most efficient locations each.


----------



## K_

Dobbo said:


> Economic theory is all well and good on paper, but it sounds less appealing when it detrimentally affects people's lives. This is an imperfect market after all! :lol:


... And buying a more expensive train only because it's made in the UK is one sure way of affecting people's lives in a negative way.

On the surface it appears that buying something in the UK in stead of in Germany will preserve some jobs in the UK. In reality it doesn't. Oh, it will preserve some jobs in some industries, but at the expense of jobs in other industries.

What is always forgotten is something that is a simple economic truth. Something that is not theory: imports are paid with exports. When the UK imports more from Germany, Germany imports more from the UK. And those imports are made by people too...


----------



## Dobbo

K_ said:


> ... And buying a more expensive train only because it's made in the UK is one sure way of affecting people's lives in a negative way.
> 
> On the surface it appears that buying something in the UK in stead of in Germany will preserve some jobs in the UK. In reality it doesn't. Oh, it will preserve some jobs in some industries, but at the expense of jobs in other industries.
> 
> What is always forgotten is something that is a simple economic truth. Something that is not theory: imports are paid with exports. When the UK imports more from Germany, Germany imports more from the UK. And those imports are made by people too...


Trade deficit and trade surplus. 

Economic theory is a decent basis for making decisions - but it is just that. Theory.


----------



## NCT

Why should Bombardier Derby solely rely on the UK market while Siemens in Germany is successful exporting everywhere? It's up to Bombardier Derby to improve its competitiveness, and not UK passengers and taxpayers to put up with expensive and outdated trains. I'm not saying Bombardier trains are expensive and outdated, but there are far more proactive ways to respond to the award decision, on the part of the company and the unions, than throwing the toy out of the pram at the government. Protectionism is not the answer.


----------



## Dobbo

@ NCT

I think the point is that, accounting for lost tax revenue and increased benefit payments, the Siemens trains are actually more expensive to the UK taxpayer.

This was not accounted for in the tendering process.


----------



## Suburbanist

Dobbo said:


> @ NCT
> 
> I think the point is that, accounting for lost tax revenue and increased benefit payments, the Siemens trains are actually more expensive to the UK taxpayer.
> 
> This was not accounted for in the tendering process.


Dobbo, you insist in this poing, forgetting that a rail stock tender is not an isolated process that could be "localized" without consequences! You always need to think "what if" they accounted for "lost tax revenues" from UK firms doing business abroad because, surely, the German wouldn't be keen to accept economic discrimination and would retaliate against British firms.

As for benefits payments, that is a wicked and very far-leftist logic, one that sees public contracts as, primarily, ends to employ people and not means to achieve or complete some project deemed in public interest.


----------



## K_

Dobbo said:


> Trade deficit and trade surplus.


Which in the end always balance out.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> K., natural monopolies are more related to individual markets than to national ones, _strictu sensu_.
> 
> A central rail station in a city like Glasgow, or the tracks under the English Channel on Eurotunnel are examples of natural monopolies.


For somethign to be a natural monopoly it has to be a monopoly first. That's the point you seem to be missing.
Eurotunnel is not a natural monopoly. They do not have a monopoly on UK-Continent traffic. They never had, they never will. 



> Most of UK franchises operate as effective monopolies, because despite the presence of many franchises in UK, most cities are served only by one company, and there is no actual competition for train services (only competition with other modes like buses, cars or domestic air travel).


Well, you could say that the Coca Cola company has a monopoly on Coca Cola. That doesn't make them a natural monopoly. It's not because only one train company serves a town that it has a monopoly in transportation to/from that town.

And even if it were to have a monopoly in transportation to a particular area (as for example MGB in Switzerland has) people can still vote with their feet and move to an area with better rail service. That is exactly the way that commuter railways compete with each other in Japan.


----------



## makita09

Suburbanist said:


> To make things work, franchises should be separate between local/regional services and trunk services along main lines, and also provide that, at least on the most trafficked routes, 2 companies are operating trains on the same route. If they want - say - 46 daily Manchester - Euston trains, let one franchise operate 23, another operate other 23. That way, you could achieve price and service quality competition. Price-conscious passengers would take cheaper trains, those wanting to travel ASAP would take whatever trains, those seeking comfort would take more expensive trains etc.


As it happens there is a review under way with the view to opening up paths for open access operators to do the London - Manchester and a few other routes. I think the reality has dawned on the government that whilst it may have been a good idea at the time (it equally may not have been) that now they need to stop giving the long distance operators a monopoly over certain routes. After all it isn't really hurting virgin that London Midland and Chiltern both now provide cheaper slower alternatives, but it gives the passengers a better deal. With the huge increase in passenger numbers, the govt need to get out of the mindset of "managing decline" in which mollycoddling the incumbent operators would make some sort of sense. But the managed decline ceased in the 90s, but many politicians still haven't got that railways are no longer a dying relic. But its changing thankfully.



> Scarcity of rolling stock plays into the hands of the ROSCOs: they can charge higher prices, which provides little incentives for them to expand fleet greatly. From a holding managerial POV, this is especially the case since some ROSCOs were acquired and merged at overpriced (in many analysts opinions) prices: flooding the market with rolling stock is detrimental to their R.O.I.
> 
> As they operate now, ROSCOs are pretty much a mere financing agency for DfT which effectively decides what is running where.
> 
> In a more free market, excess rolling stock would attract knock-down short-term leases (2-4 years) from open access TOCs, who'd be able to use them to operate free routes within the system, helping push competition. But as it is now, there is no incentive for that, DfT puts safeguarding the franchises as a higher priority.



Here's the official investigation into exactly that, its the press release, only 4 pages.

http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/press_rel/2009/apr/pdf/16-09.pdf


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Grand designs at Exeter stations begin*
> 
> *Work to improve Exeter Central and Exeter St Davids into bright, accessible and secure stations has started. Nearly 4m passengers are set to benefit from better journey experiences at both stations from the £7m refurbishment.*
> 
> It will provide passengers with better facilities including, new waiting shelters, toilets and real-time digital customer information system.
> 
> Led by First Great Western and Network Rail, the major refurbishment programme is part of the National Station Improvement Programme (NSIP), which is backed by the Department for Transport.
> 
> Network Rail has also launched today a new redevelopment opportunity that could further improve the station area of Exeter St Davids.
> 
> By unlocking the untapped potential of the railway assets outside the station, there are opportunities for developers to transform the land into a mixed-use development and an integrated transport hub.
> 
> Patrick Hallgate, route managing director for Network Rail, said: “Exeter is forecast to be among the biggest growth cities within South West of England by 2026. It is vital that we provide a robust railway to support this growth and most importantly, the city’s economy.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/09/21/grand-designs-at-exeter-stations-begin/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Virgin Trains pays Government £110m*
> 
> *Virgin Trains has paid the Government £110 million this year – in stark contrast to last year’s figure when the train operator received a subsidy of £40 million.*
> 
> The change of fortune comes after years of disruption on the West Coast Main Line, as part of the route’s £9 billion upgrade.
> 
> Virgin Trains saw its passenger revenue rise 11% to £753 million in the year to March 31st. Passenger figures hit 28 million journeys.
> 
> Says Virgin Rail Chief Executive Officer Tony Collins, ‘Our partnership approach with the Department for Transport has seen passenger numbers grow faster than the market over the last six years. We expect to continue this as a result of joint investments such as the recent addition of a new Pendolino train which is now in service.’
> 
> The figures will ramp up interest in the battle for the WCML franchise. First Group, SNCF, Abellio and incumbent Virgin are all interested.
> 
> The franchise is expected to be let in January 2013.


http://www.rail.co/2011/09/22/virgin-trains-pays-government-110m/


----------



## Pansori

I have a little question about Gatwick Express.

They have been using Class 460 trainsets which were leased new around 2000-2001. But recently the fleet was changed to old refurbished Class 442 which date back to 1988 or so and are essentially old trains (and they do look so!). I understand that refurbishing old trains is a good idea on some slower services with 3rd class seating but how come that a 'premium' service like Gatwick Express is using old Class 442s while 'ordinary' Southern service uses new Class 377s which are more aesthetically appealing and are decent contemporary EMUs? Or was the refurb done so well that it actually makes 422s suitable for such premium service?


----------



## Republica

Pansori said:


> £4.30 for a 2.2 mile bus ride must be BY FAR the world's most expensive bus fare! This is beyond extortionate. It by no means makes a two stop train ride for £2.60 'cheap'. Comparable bus ride in London would cost you £1.20 while a train ride should be about the same i.e. £2.60. Those unfoprtunate people paying £4.30 for such a bus journey should rather take a cab and start saving their money!
> 
> 
> 
> Why no? Only because everyone says so and you have never tried it? I just checked google maps. It's actually 2.2 miles and takes 43 minutes. If you're fast and not physically incapacitated you can make it in 25-30 minutes. On a bike it would take about 10-12 minutes and perhaps a little longer in a car depending on traffic.
> 
> 
> The comparison is flawed in this case because nowhere in the world a 2.2 mile bus ride costs £4.30. Leeds must be somehow unique and special. :nuts:


I'm not quite sure why you are bothering with this.

Walking from Headingley train station (where i live) to Leeds train station (I work next to it) is an hour walk. There are lots of hills. It takes an hour to walk, that is a fact, I have walked it. I am not going to walk for 2 hours to work every day when I can pay £2.60 and spend a total of 20 mins on the train.

The comparison is not flawed, because that is how much a ticket in Leeds costs... can you not understand that? Of course in reality very few people pay that fare, but I am just comparing the standard turn up and pay fare on the train and bus.... Both of them are day tickets too. You recommend taking a taxi. From Leeds train station to Headingley train station a taxi is between £6 and £8! not much of a money saver is it?


----------



## makita09

Pansori said:


> I have a little question about Gatwick Express.
> 
> They have been using Class 460 trainsets which were leased new around 2000-2001. But recently the fleet was changed to old refurbished Class 442 which date back to 1988 or so and are essentially old trains (and they do look so!). I understand that refurbishing old trains is a good idea on some slower services with 3rd class seating but how come that a 'premium' service like Gatwick Express is using old Class 442s while 'ordinary' Southern service uses new Class 377s which are more aesthetically appealing and are decent contemporary EMUs? Or was the refurb done so well that it actually makes 422s suitable for such premium service?


The class 442s (not 422s) are based on mk III coaching stock - essentially the same as the HSTs etc. They are perfect for 'premium' services. The reason for the change was because Southern needed to use the GX paths during the peak, so they extended the GX services to Brighton. This required more stock. There are now many more 442 units than the 8 460 units that were available. Two 442s running as a unit use up most of the 240m platform lengths available, whereas the 460s were only 160m, of which one car was wasted as a luggage van.

The 377s feature 3+2 seating a lot, whereas the 442s are 2+2 and are much more comfy. All in all it was a good idea.


----------



## IanCleverly

A sped up journey on the Chiltern Main line from London Marylebone to Birmingham Moor Street.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *London Southend Airport rail link opens*
> 
> *A new rail link between London Southend Airport and the British capital has officially opened, ahead of the London 2012 Olympic Games. The airport's new rail station links Southend to London Liverpool Street, a major station in the City of London and will also stop at Stratford, the main site under development for the Olympic Games.*
> 
> Journey time to central London will be 53 minutes, around eight minutes longer than the journey from Stansted Airport, although the time to Stratford is 44 minutes.
> 
> The airport is aiming to give passengers with hand luggage a 'plane-to-train' time of just 15 minutes, with a maximum four-minute wait at security checkpoints in the other direction.
> 
> Although Stratford currently serves only small airlines, its importance is expected to grow significantly next year with the launch of easyJet services, with 70 flights a week scheduled to begin in April 2012 to destinations across Europe.
> 
> The airport also confirmed this week that a new carrier, Jetisfaction, will soon offer regular services to and from Germany.


http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...southend-airport-rail-link-opens-2359628.html


----------



## Pansori

makita09 said:


> The class 442s (not 422s) are based on mk III coaching stock - essentially the same as the HSTs etc. They are perfect for 'premium' services. The reason for the change was because Southern needed to use the GX paths during the peak, so they extended the GX services to Brighton. This required more stock. There are now many more 442 units than the 8 460 units that were available. Two 442s running as a unit use up most of the 240m platform lengths available, whereas the 460s were only 160m, of which one car was wasted as a luggage van.
> 
> The 377s feature 3+2 seating a lot, whereas the 442s are 2+2 and are much more comfy. All in all it was a good idea.


Thanks for explanation. That makes sense. I wonder for how long these 442s will remain in service?


----------



## the_sage

makita09 said:


> The class 442s (not 422s) are based on mk III coaching stock - essentially the same as the HSTs etc. They are perfect for 'premium' services. The reason for the change was because Southern needed to use the GX paths during the peak, so they extended the GX services to Brighton. This required more stock. There are now many more 442 units than the 8 460 units that were available. Two 442s running as a unit use up most of the 240m platform lengths available, whereas the 460s were only 160m, of which one car was wasted as a luggage van.
> 
> The 377s feature 3+2 seating a lot, whereas the 442s are 2+2 and are much more comfy. All in all it was a good idea.


Since they are based on the mk III coaches I imagine the ride would be smother / quieter than the newer units they replaced?


----------



## makita09

^^ Not really, the 460s were nice too. Only rode one once as an emergency shuttle from Victoria to East Croydon due to a fire at Victoria, but it was smooth. Quieter perhaps in a 442 unless you're in the motor car, plus the 442s have the old school brake pumps that kick in every now and then, that sounds like a giant washing machine crossed with a pigeon. But all the units on the Brighton Mainline are modern smooth and quiet apart from the slightly rickety 319s.

The one disadvantage of the 442s is they have poor acceleration - 7.9bhp/ton and about 20t of tractive effort, but no problem really if they are on expresses.

The 460s - 9.2bhp/ton and nearly 100t of tractive effort (per 8x20m cars)
The 377s - 11.8bhp/ton and about 50t of tractive effort (per 4x20m cars)
The 319s - 9.33bhp/ton and about 20t of tractive effort (per 4x20m cars)

@ Pansori, for the foreseeable future I imagine. I reckon it will be ten years at least before they're replaced now, when hopefully some capacity enhancements are made to the line once the 12-car thameslink projects are filled with bums on seats.


----------



## glasgowjack

> *Network Rail announces Queen Street station revamp plan*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Network Rail has selected the Buchanan Partnership as its partner for a multi-million pound redevelopment of Glasgow Queen Street station.
> 
> The project is expected to run from 2013 until 2015, with some improvements made for the 2014 Commonwealth Games.
> 
> A new glass frontage will be added to the station's George Square entrance.
> 
> Inside, the concourse will be extended, a new mezzanine level food court added, along with an atrium link to the Buchanan Galleries shopping centre.
> 
> The Dundas Street and North Hanover Street entrances will also be redesigned and there will be a new entrance created from Cathedral Street.
> 
> The mezzanine and food court will be created in the air space above the current station car park, while that car park will be replaced with a multi-storey parking facility.
> 
> David Simpson, Network Rail route managing director for Scotland, said: "Glasgow Queen Street is one of the busiest stations in Scotland handling more than 19 million passengers a year and the proposals announced today will deliver a more modern station with enhanced retail and leisure facilities for those travellers.
> 
> "The Buchanan Partnership's exciting plans for the station will also greatly enhance the appeal of the wider city centre to rail passengers and shoppers alike and this partnership allows Network Rail to redevelop this important station in a cost-effective way and generate additional revenue which we can reinvest in the nation's railways."
> 
> The Buchanan Partnership is a joint venture between Land Securities and Henderson Global Investors.
> 
> Land Securities head of retail, Lester Hampson, said: "The redevelopment of Glasgow Queen Street Station will create a world-class integrated transport hub and is an important element in progressing our aspiration to enhance and expand the Buchanan Quarter, cementing Glasgow's position as the top retail and leisure destination outside London."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15061417


----------



## Fatfield

Sunderland to London Kings Cross @ 2,660mph :nuts:

Credit to grandcentralofficial


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Unveiled: Plans for 700 extra trains a day across the north *
> 
> *Rail chiefs today unveiled plans to deliver deliver more than 700 extra services a day between Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle as part of a £560m “northern hub”. The so-called “initial industry plan” also includes journey time improvements in Yorkshire and electrification of the Midland main line and north trans-Pennine line.*
> 
> The programme covers the period 2014 to 2019, with the industry aiming to cut rail costs by £1.3 billion a year by the end of this decade.
> 
> The plan envisages improvements to a number of stations including Fenchurch Street in London and Liverpool Central - but does not confirm any in Yorkshire. Rail chiefs claim that by better linking Britain’s major cities, an extra 180,000 peak-time seats could be provided, as well as accommodating a 30% increase in freight.
> 
> The hoped-for schemes, which will need Government approval, are in addition to £4.9 billion-worth of ongoing projects such as the Thameslink and Crossrail schemes in London and already-announced electrification schemes such as the Great Western line.
> 
> The rail industry also spoke today of trying to improve the passenger experience in key areas such as journey information, comfort and accessibility.
> 
> Network Rail group strategy director Paul Plummer said: “The railways are booming, with more and more people choosing rail. Closer collaboration within the industry will deliver even more efficiencies. This revenue growth and improved efficiency taken together provide governments with real choices to consider, choices around the appropriate balance between subsidy, investment and fares.”
> 
> Michael Roberts, chief executive of the Association of Train Operating Companies, said: “Rail has a bright future in supporting a successful green economy in the years ahead. This plan shows how we can do that by providing a better quality of service to growing numbers of passengers at a more affordable cost. We look forward to working with government to ensure the right framework is in place to make this possible.”
> 
> The plan comes as season-ticket holders face average fare rises of 8% in the new year at a time when passenger numbers are rising on a network where rail costs are seen as too high.


http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/busi...extra_trains_a_day_across_the_north_1_3819330


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Travel to Germany with high speed trains from London in just four hours from 2013*
> 
> *Londoners and Germans have been waiting for an alternative to air travel for a long time. Finally a very appealing solution seems to be in sight as from 2013 a new high speed train service will allow you hop on a train at London St Pancras and be in Cologne in four hours.*
> 
> After a successful test run through the Channel Tunnel to the Eurostar terminal at London St Pancras, German rail operator Deutsche Bahn plans to start a full inter-continental service in 2013.
> 
> Travel time from Cologne and Amsterdam to London is expected to be under four hours and from Frankfurt just over five hours.
> 
> Currently, only Eurostar has the use of the Channel Tunnel, giving it a total monopoly on trains to Europe, with passengers changing at Brussels to reach other destinations.
> 
> But the new route will see German trains travel from London to Brussels, where they will split, with one half going on to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and the other to Cologne and Frankfurt, without the passengers having to disembark.
> 
> The chairman of the DB Management Board, Dr Rutiger Grube, said, "by making full use of the opportunities afforded by the liberalisation of the European rail transport market we are able to offer our customers genuine alternatives to air travel."


http://optimistworld.com/Articles.aspx?id=98e70dfd-9e4b-4fee-a5e1-5a5f5b361035



> *Deutsche Bahn to launch channel tunnel rail services*
> 
> *German rail operate Deutsche Bahn has confirmed it will launch services through the Channel Tunnel in 2013. Initially the operator will offer departures between London St Pancras International and Brussels, with a view to expanding to Amsterdam (via Rotterdam), Cologne and Frankfurt. *
> 
> DB will use its newly built ICE 3 (class 407) for the service. The train operator argues this will reduce the travel time from London to Cologne and Amsterdam to less than four hours and to Frankfurt to just over five.
> 
> DB submitted an application in July for fundamental approval for its ICE trains to use the Channel Tunnel the Intergovernmental Commission (IGC), the safety authority responsible for this.
> 
> Deutsche Bahn had previously outlined its plans following a series of safety tests earlier this year.


http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/deutsche-bahn-to-launch-channel-tunnel-rail-services/


----------



## Dobbo

Good news for users of the Midland Mainline... (well if you will be using it in 4-6 years!)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15111438

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_specification_East_Midlands.aspx


----------



## Sopomon

Dobbo said:


> Good news for users of the Midland Mainline... (well if you will be using it in 4-6 years!)
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15111438
> 
> http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_specification_East_Midlands.aspx


Finally!

Although to be honest, I care more about FCC improving their shitty service


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Official opening for new £1.5m Southend East Station*
> 
> *The Mayor of Southend-on-Sea, Councillor David Norman today officially opened the new and upgraded Southend East station.*
> 
> National Express train operator c2c’s Southend East station has been significantly upgraded and rebuilt over the past 9 months in a £1.5m investment as part of the National Stations Improvement Programme, with much improved facilities for customers including:
> 
> - Construction of a brand new ticket office on the south side of the station
> - Improvements to station platforms, lighting and signage
> - Enhanced CCTV equipment and customer information systems
> - Improved pedestrian and cycle access from Ambleside Drive
> - New station entrance with better access
> - New cycle parking provided by the Borough Council on the north side of the station, in addition to the existing cycle parking provided by c2c at the station
> - A much improved environment and asset for the local community
> 
> Julian Drury Managing Director of c2c said: “We’re proud to serve the people of Southend and Essex with award-winning train services – this significant investment at Southend East demonstrates our commitment to upgrading our stations and services in responding to what are customers are telling us. We want to make a positive contribution to the communities we serve. Here at Southend East we have met their aspirations, which were for better ticketing facilities and information, improved security and more cycle parking.”
> 
> James Duddridge MP for Rochford and Southend East said: “I am delighted to see the continual investment that c2c have carried out on the Shoeburyness to Fenchurch Street line. The investment to Southend East train station is yet another testament to their commitment to ensuring the service they provide to their passengers is second to none. I would like to thank c2c for their continual investment programme and I am sure that the residents of Southend will enjoy the new and improved station.”
> 
> Andrew Munden, Network Rail Route Director, said: “The improvements that have been delivered at Southend East station will give passengers what they want – a safer and brighter station providing an improved environment for everyone travelling by train.
> 
> “Britain relies on train travel and these new facilities are a great example of how the rail industry is collaborating to bring our stations into the 21st century, encouraging great use of the network.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/10/03/official-opening-for-new-1-5m-southend-east-station/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Euston joint control room points to way forward for rail industry*
> 
> *A new control room at Euston station has opened as part of a collaborative effort from Network Rail, London Midland and Virgin Trains. The project marks the first time that a joint control room has been built from scratch, with both train operators and Network Rail contributing to the design so that the control room delivers what each party needs.*
> 
> The new facility was designed to assist and encourage collaborative working between the three companies’ staff, which will improve both the management of station personnel and the dissemination of information between station staff and train operators. This will help to deduce the dwell time for trains at the station, improving train performance and reducing delays for passengers.
> 
> London Euston was chosen as the site for the first joint control room due to the high number of passengers that use the station and the potential for overcrowding during times of service disruption.
> 
> Steve Lewis, Network Rail station manager at Euston, said: “This new control room is a fantastic example of what we can achieve when we work together.
> 
> “Euston is one of the busiest stations in the country and the whole team here, whether they work for Network Rail, London Midland or Virgin Trains, have a huge role to play in keeping thousands of people moving each day. This facility will make working together easier and improve the service we provide to passengers and to each other.”
> 
> David Johnson, duty station manager for Virgin Trains at Euston, said: “We now have a state of the art Joint Control facility at London Euston to enable Virgin Trains, London Midland and Network Rail to work closely together to deliver the timetable to our passengers, and co-ordinate service recovery following any disruption.”
> 
> Alex Hynes, commercial director, London Midland, said: “This is partnership working in action. Keeping staff and customers up to date with the latest information is the best way to boost passenger approval.”


http://www.rail.co/2011/10/06/euston-joint-control-room-points-to-way-forward-for-rail-industry/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Leicester station to be ‘lighter and brighter’*
> 
> *Leicester is getting a freshen up and a lighter, brighter entrance to the station. Listed building consent was recently received to complete the works inside the historic porte-cochère.*
> 
> Says Martin Frobisher, Network Rail route director, ‘These improvements will bring real benefits for passengers. First job is to renew the roof on the station and porte-cochère, then we move on to improve the flow of traffic ….. and create a pedestrian concourse.
> 
> ‘We believe at the end of the scheme we will have a more welcoming station which is better for all users.’
> 
> The scheme will be finished by summer 2012. East Midlands Trains will also be completing works to refurbish the stairs to the platforms and the main station footbridge as well as installing a new canopy to cover the stairs and overbridge to the car park.
> 
> Says David Horne, Commercial and Customer Service Director for East Midlands Trains, ‘We welcome the changes at Leicester and look forward to working with Network Rail to deliver these significant improvements to the station.’


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/16/leicester-station-to-be-lighter-and-brighter/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Sittingbourne station footbridge lifted into place*
> 
> *Passengers at Sittingbourne station were recently greeted with their new station footbridge, which was lifted into place over the weekend.*
> 
> Together with the installation of two new lifts, the new bridge forms part of a multi-million pound investment though the government’s Access for All scheme to provide step-free access between the entrance and platforms making it more accessible for everyone.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/16/sittingbourne-station-footbridge-lifted-into-place/


----------



## poshbakerloo

IanCleverly said:


> Beware - There is quite a bit of audio distortion.


OMG! As if they are getting rid of these now and not the 142s!!!
Please can't we replace the 142s with these!? They may be the same age but the 150s are 100000s times better! :nuts:


----------



## PortoNuts

> *More carriages on Aberdeen-Inverness trains*
> 
> *ScotRail’s longest-ever daytime diesel train will be launched next month on the Aberdeen-Inverness line. The seven-carriage train will run during the evening peak-hour as the 17.18 Aberdeen-Inverness service – providing 124 more seats.*
> 
> And almost 400 more seats will be added in total to three other trains on the route. The increases in capacity are a result of ScotRail’s ongoing review of deploying rolling stock in the most effective way possible.
> 
> From Monday, 12 December the 17.18 Aberdeen-Inverness service will have seven carriages – an increase of two.
> 
> Until now, the maximum number of carriages on ScotRail’s passenger diesel trains (excluding the Caledonian Sleepers) has been six, all serving the
> 
> Edinburgh-Glasgow and Edinburgh-Aberdeen routes, plus Fife to Edinburgh.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/18/more-carriages-on-aberdeen-inverness-trains/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Busy rail routes to benefit from extra seats*
> 
> *Passengers on some of the country’s busiest rail routes are set to benefit from extra seats Rail Minister Theresa Villiers announced today. Passengers in the Thames Valley will benefit from nearly 4,500 additional seats each day into and out of London Paddington.*
> 
> The majority of these services will also provide additional capacity into Reading.
> 
> The extra seats are being added thanks to Government funding for an additional 48 carriages on First Great Western services which run through Reading and the Thames Valley and into London Paddington as well as in Bristol and the far south west of England.
> 
> Theresa Villiers said: “We are determined to tackle overcrowding and provide better, more comfortable journeys for passengers. These extra carriages will enable existing services to be lengthened which will significantly increase their capacity. Completion of the vital Crossrail and Thameslink projects in London will also provide more capacity for passengers.
> 
> “In addition, we are investing in the electrification of the Great Western Main Line between London, Bristol, Cardiff, Oxford and Newbury and a massive reconstruction of Reading station. Adding carriages to some of the busiest routes in the country is a key part of the major programme of rail capacity expansion which we have promised to deliver. This is a vital way to respond to passenger concerns about crowding and provides important support for economic growth.”
> 
> The extra carriages, which are planned to come into service in time for the London 2012 Olympic Games, will be deployed on morning and evening peak services serving the capital and commuting towns such as Bristol, Reading, Basingstoke, Ealing Broadway, Slough and Maidenhead.
> 
> Two of the 48 carriages will be used to increase capacity on crowded trains between Truro and Falmouth and Exmouth and Torbay.


http://www.rail.co/2011/11/22/busy-rail-routes-to-benefit-from-extra-seats/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## AndreiB

I have one question for UK Rail Gurus. On various journeys across the East Coast Mainline, I noticed the train was a HST set, instead of the Class 91 locomtive+Mark IV Rack. I though they would have been journeys continuing on to Aberdeen or other such unelectrified destinations, but every time they were King's Cross to Newcastle or King's Cross to Edinburgh journeys, which are completely under the wires.

What is the logic in East Coast utilising Diesel Trains on fully electrified routes?


----------



## makita09

Its simple, they ran out of electric trains a long time ago. HSTs have been made availalble by the replacement of Cross Country HSTs by the Voyagers and Super Voyagers. The HSTs were then transferred to the ecml during GNER's time on the route, and also to the GWR to First Great Western. I don't know how many went to each - its a little complicated because east coast HSTs are longer. In the end cross country also ended up with a couple of HSTs back.


----------



## AndreiB

I see. That seems slightly strange. After all how difficult is it to buy some electric trainsets. If they ran out of electric trains in GNER's time, they should have planned for something like this before.


----------



## Sopomon

AndreiB said:


> I see. That seems slightly strange. After all how difficult is it to buy some electric trainsets. If they ran out of electric trains in GNER's time, they should have planned for something like this before.


I _think_ that East Coast will be getting a couple of Pendolino sets, but those aside, I don't know of anythign planned for the future


----------



## makita09

AndreiB said:


> I see. That seems slightly strange. After all how difficult is it to buy some electric trainsets. If they ran out of electric trains in GNER's time, they should have planned for something like this before.


It depends - if you're a Rolling Stock Leasing Company partnered with a Train Operating Company, then not so hard. If silly politicians try and get involved then it all goes completely wrong. East coast is a victim of the latter.

When the new electric trains were needed the government at the time insisted there was no need to electrify any more railways in the UK, and that diesel trains can do the job more cost effectively because they have a broader market and can roam further on the network. Despite the fact that everyone told them they were mad, and the rolling stock leasing companies (ie the banks) refused to fund such stupidity.

So then the government decided the best way to keep value for money (whilst fitting the situation to the plan and not the other way around like sensible people) was to embark on a huge centralised rolling stock order for the most technically complicated rail vehicle ever conceived - the IEP, in which the invitation to tender stated the bids must find their own funding (because the ROSCOs had basically refused)

In the meantime various options to take a few old class 90s and Mk3 stock, but they are only 110mph and couldn't really slot in to the timetable. The only vehicles that were available that could do 125mph were some HSTs, and while the government faffs it was the best option.

So, how hard is it to buy more electric trains? If you're the Department for Transport, very.

To give you an idea of how stupid their prosal is, the original idea was to replace the electric trains on the east coast mainline FIRST. Even though they are 15 years younger than the HSTs. Oh yes and the economies of scale that have been achieved by the centralised process has produced a vehicle that is more expensive per vehicle than an off the shelf pendolino. 

Genius. hno:


----------



## AndreiB

That does sound completely unsound. I am also not a massive fan of the IEP programme, especially when considering the fact that at one point they suggested diesel top-up under the wires. I (personally) see no need to replace the class 91 sets. They are very comfortable and have a huge capacity. The problem of unelectrified destinations beyond the wires is not so hard and the vast majority of East Coast destinations are indeed electrified.


----------



## XAN_

What about costs? For example here in Ukraine diesel fuel is very expensive, while electric energy is cheap, so railway never diesel under overhead wire, unlesss they are really have no other options... And what is situation in UK?


----------



## poshbakerloo

XAN_ said:


> What about costs? For example here in Ukraine diesel fuel is very expensive, while electric energy is cheap, so railway never diesel under overhead wire, unlesss they are really have no other options... And what is situation in UK?


We do a lot of Diesels running on electric lines but thats normally because part of the route the train is taking isn't electric e.g. Cross Country, Transpennine, East Midlands etc


----------



## Think

^^I suppose that in the past these trains were made by locomotives and carriages, chaging between electric and diesel locomotives during the service. When were they replaced by diesel train units?


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Changing locos is a highly inefficient process on long-distance rail routes, let alone the medium-distance express routes operated on ECML.

What the British need is to get over the obsessions of having direct trains to London from anywhere, and accepting the idea of more connecting services along their mainlines. But that is anathema, that a city will be "disconnected" from London.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

> obsessions of having direct trains to London from anywhere, and accepting the idea of more connecting services along their mainlines


Could it be the idea of a "one seat ride" being better than the alternative, or perhaps the schedule discipline for reliable connecting services is just not there? Britain is not Switzerland.


----------



## Think

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Changing locos is a highly inefficient process on long-distance rail routes


I've got my doubts. Sometimes yes, sometimes maybe.

In any case I don't mind, my question is still there, I don't think the've always made all this services whith train units. I wanna know when the have been changed from locos and carriages.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Extra train carriages on Bristol to London line is welcomed in Yate*
> 
> *A GOVERNMENT announcement to increase the number of train carriages on the Bristol to London line through Yate has been welcomed in the town. Under the plans announced by transport minister Theresa Villiers, First Great Western will be adding 48 extra carriages to morning and evening peak services creating several hundred additional seats.*
> 
> The extra carriages will be made available from the summer next year and will lead to 588 seats on morning peak hour services between Bristol and London and a further 336 on evening peak services out of Paddington.
> 
> Thornbury and Yate MP Steve Webb, who has long campaigned for extra seats on trains in and out of Yate, welcomed the announcement.
> 
> Mr Webb, himself a regular commuter on the Great Western mainline, said: "Rail passengers will very much welcome this investment in extra carriages for peak hour First Great Western services. "Like many people, I regularly travel on peak-hour services which are standing-room only. These extra carriages will help more people to travel in comfort and are a further boost following the news of extra carriages for suburban services from Yate. "Coming on top of the confirmation of plans to electrify the Great Western mainline, this news is further evidence of the government’s commitment to invest in our public transport infrastructure."
> 
> ...


http://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news...n_Bristol_to_London_line_is_welcomed_in_Yate/


----------



## Stainless

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Changing locos is a highly inefficient process on long-distance rail routes, let alone the medium-distance express routes operated on ECML.


This is true, I was on the Trans-Mongolian in Datong and it took about 30 mins. It probably could be done quicker though, or hybrid trains could be used. Or even use an electric locomotive with a DMU set and disconnect the electric locomotive at the end.


----------



## Robi_damian

^^ Yeah, but most people do not use rail like that, not in a small(ish) country like the UK or the Netherlands anyway. I think I have never booked a rail journey more than a week in advance ever.


----------



## Sopomon

Indeed Robi. Theoretically, price discrimination is great and has many benefits, however, when applied in a practical case like in the UK it may be shown to be not quite as good as first thought. However, we don't know to what degree fares for off-peak times and similar trips have been reduced by this pricing scheme, so I think it's more of a mixed outcome, neither wholly good or bad for the travelling public.


----------



## makita09

K_ said:


> O maybe it's a cultural thing, and Brits aren't big on visiting people on Christmas.


And nearly everyone in Britain is pissed by mid-morning on Christmas Day. Thats when we open our presents, with a glass a of bucks fizz (champange ruined with orange juice) before moving on to a whiskeymac (whiskey ruined with ginger wine) before moving on to Christmas dinner (ruined by drinking too much bucks fizz and whiskeymac earlier in the day)

I don't think there is any danger of anything much happening on Christmas Day in the UK ever.


----------



## trainrover




----------



## K_

makita09 said:


> And nearly everyone in Britain is pissed by mid-morning on Christmas Day. Thats when we open our presents, with a glass a of bucks fizz (champange ruined with orange juice) before moving on to a whiskeymac (whiskey ruined with ginger wine) before moving on to Christmas dinner (ruined by drinking too much bucks fizz and whiskeymac earlier in the day)


So the logical thing to do would be to keep public transport running, but to ban car driving.
However, it being the logical thing sufficiently explains why it isn't done...


----------



## K_

sotonsi said:


> why on earth would you want to spend a couple of hours of Christmas Day not with your family, but travelling?


It's actually because I want to spend time with my family on Christmas Day that I need to travel on Christmas day. I don't think I'm the only one in such a situation.


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> Netherlands, for instance, has a worse and less sophisticated fare system, it costs all the same except for pass holders or seasonal discount subscribers.
> 
> Therefore, you can't actually compare last-minute prices among different countries. You'd never travel 680km for £ 32 like you can travel in UK


You can't even travel 680km in the Netherlands. The networks are completely different. The Dutch railways run a country wide metro network. 
Would you consider a sophisticated fare system would be right for the London Underground?


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

:cheers2:



SO143 said:


> * New London Bridge Station*


----------



## Sopomon

Seriously, all the work that's being finally put into the railways around London is so impressive! I never used to use the overground at all, as it was frankly, infrequesnt and hideous, yet now it's my main route used to get to friend's places. And so many stations are being extensively renovated too! It's wonderful to see all this investment having come after the past 15-20 years of malaise.


----------



## Suburbanist

New London Bridge station looks nice, but they needed to remove those hideous arcs!!!


----------



## NCT

^^ What hideous arcs?


----------



## stingstingsting

yeah, what hideous arcs?


NCT said:


> ^^ What hideous arcs?


----------



## Suburbanist

These:


----------



## K_

Suburbanist said:


> These:


What's hideous about them? I think the architects did a splendid job.


----------



## sotonsi

The arches aren't modernist steel and glass, so I'm guessing that Suburbanist would rather see the Victoria brick viaduct that London Bridge Station and it's approach lines completely removed because it's
1)old (not that that stops him having SPQR, a Roman thing under his name)
2)not to his architectural taste - everything must be new-looking

I think the mix of old and new works well, and it is silly to spend billions removing a perfectly fine - and very likely preserved - viaduct, just because it doesn't fit the architectural fashion of the moment. London's oldest station should have an element of age in it's design.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ I think the arches are out of proportion, and the lower level should have an "open plan" appearance with plenty of glass or even bricks+glasses in irregular forms, having no resemblance to the present one other than its location. I like total replacement projects.

But this is still better than the bad-state, creative-less job they did at St. Pancraaas.


----------



## billiam

Suburbanist said:


> But this is still better than the bad-state, creative-less job they did at St. Pancraaas.


^^You left out "award winning" from that description of St Pancras Suburbanist  I was just reading on huff post how various historical societies want more of the current station fabric preserving but I don't think they'll win that battle.


----------



## poshbakerloo

makita09 said:


> And nearly everyone in Britain is pissed by mid-morning on Christmas Day. Thats when we open our presents, with a glass a of bucks fizz (champange ruined with orange juice) before moving on to a whiskeymac (whiskey ruined with ginger wine) before moving on to Christmas dinner (ruined by drinking too much bucks fizz and whiskeymac earlier in the day)
> 
> I don't think there is any danger of anything much happening on Christmas Day in the UK ever.


I don't think ruined is the correct word to use, and I have never heard of people here drinking 'whiskeymac'. We just cracked open the white wine, vodka and Apple Sourz haha


----------



## poshbakerloo

Robi_damian said:


> ^^ Yeah, but most people do not use rail like that, not in a small(ish) country like the UK or the Netherlands anyway. I think I have never booked a rail journey more than a week in advance ever.


The only train journeys that need to be booked are the long distance (by UK standards) trips, such as Manchester-London which huge discounts can be made. But local trips are cheap to buy on the day. £4.55 for me to get into Manchester return (14miles one way)


----------



## trainrover

I agree with you, sotonsi, the looks of the intended blends between new and old are really quite compelling


----------



## Sopomon

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I think the arches are out of proportion, and the lower level should have an "open plan" appearance with plenty of glass or even bricks+glasses in irregular forms, having no resemblance to the present one other than its location. I like total replacement projects.
> 
> But this is still better than the bad-state, creative-less job they did at St. Pancraaas.


The only reply that comes to mind reading this is something along the lines of:
"Cool opinions, bro."


----------



## makita09

@ Poshbakerloo sorry I'm a southerner


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Planning application submitted for new railway station in Chelmsford*
> 
> *Countryside Properties and its development partner, L&Q, have revised their outline planning application for a new railway station in North East Chelmsford. The proposals represent a major addition to the sustainable transport infrastructure of both the town and the county.*
> 
> The application complements proposals for a new neighbourhood at Beaulieu Park, with up to 3,600 new homes and a total of 620,000 sq. ft. of commercial space incorporating a business park.
> 
> The station will include four platforms with passing loops that will bring efficiency and capacity benefits to the operation of the Great Eastern main line and therefore both to the county and region. It will be a ‘new transport hub’ where passengers can complete journeys using sustainable modes of transport.
> 
> The proposals incorporate a bus interchange and substantial cycle parking. It is expected that 60% of passengers will travel to the station by non-car means. This improved facility is expected to reduce congestion at the existing Chelmsford station and the reduced numbers of car trips will therefore assist in also reducing congestion in the town centre and on radial routes.
> 
> John Oldham, Group Chief Town Planner, Countryside Properties commented:
> 
> “This revised planning application is a major step forward in making the new railway station in North East Chelmsford a reality. It highlights our very robust commitment to its delivery. All the foundations are in place for its delivery.”
> 
> Mike Johnson, Land Director, L&Q, said:
> 
> “New infrastructure to support sustainable transport options on this scale offers huge benefits to North East Chelmsford and the surrounding area.
> 
> ...


http://www.rail.co/2012/01/18/planning-application-submitted-for-new-railway-station-in-chelmsford/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Waverley Steps refurbishment completes *
> 
> *Refurbishment works to one of the principal entrances to Waverley Station are to be completed this weekend, paving the way for a more comfortable pedestrian connection to Waverley Station.*
> 
> For 145 years some 14,000 people a day have huffed and puffed their way up the 72 steps to reach Princes Street but from Monday they will be able to glide effortlessly up thanks to the installation of a bank of escalators.
> 
> Network Rail’s £7m refurbishment project has seen Morgan Sindall install a glazed canopy installed above the stairwell, held aloft by six sculptural pillars, sheltering three banks of double escalators to whisk folk up and down the 40ft climb.
> 
> This remodeling work has seen Jefferson Sheard Architects narrow the stairs to just half their original width with eight shorter flights of stairs replacing the original five. A central handrail has also been added for those determined to continue making the ascent.
> 
> In their design statement Jefferson Sheard said: “We have to carefully balance the history and the historic appeal of the station's architecture with contemporary needs and modern design. The result is a structure with presence and appeal, but a ‘light-touch', not competing with the grand sandstone buildings that surround it.”
> 
> A partial opening of the stairs as far as the Princes Mall will take place on Saturday, ahead of a full unveiling on Monday.
> 
> Two 16 passenger lifts will also be installed once following the opening, scheduled to open by July 2012.


http://www.urbanrealm.com/news/3318/Waverley_Steps_refurbishment_completes.html


----------



## IanCleverly

^^^^ In time for the Six nations match between Scotland and England as well.

Anyone got room in their back yard for a railway bridge?



The Railway Magazine said:


> *Civil engineering contractor Amey is offering two railway bridges to the heritage railway movement*
> 
> Two redundant single track bridges span the M50 motorway, between junctions 1 and 2, and previously carried the Midland Railway from Tewkesbury to Great Malvern. The single line from Tewkesbury to Upton-on-Severn closed on August 14, 1961, a year after the M50 opened. The Great Malvern-Upton section closed in December 1952. <snip> Amey says that each span is just under 15 metres long and has a skew of 24 degrees. The pair will be removed during March in an operation that will facilitate a full closure of the motorway.


Story, as well as a photo, and contact details, can be found Here


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Refurbished Marks Tey station opens*
> 
> *The new and upgraded Marks Tey station was opened last week by Essex County Council.*
> 
> National Express East Anglia ‘rebuilt and transformed’ the station with a £2.2m investment as part of the National Stations Improvements Programme.
> 
> The rebuilt station has a new access ramp and stairs up to the widened London bound platform with new waiting shelters.
> 
> CCTV and new lighting has also been installed.
> 
> Andrew Chivers, Managing Director, National Express East Anglia said:
> 
> “The completion of this significant project to rebuild Marks Tey station and transform the customer facilities at this busy interchange station is another improvement scheme we have delivered for our customers in Essex as part of the National Stations Improvement Programme."


http://www.rail.co/2012/02/03/refurbished-marks-tey-station-opens/


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## iamawesomezero

Beautiful!


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Platform promise for Peterborough*
> 
> *More platforms and a new ticket hall feature in a £43m plan to upgrade Peterborough station. The redevelopment heralds longer, more frequent trains and anticipates a surge in passenger volume. Four million people a year use the station and this number is expected to double over the next 25 years.*
> 
> Says Phil Verster, Network Rail route managing director, ‘We are making a significant investment to improve the railway in Peterborough, providing a better station and more trains for passengers. Rail is vital for Peterborough given its position as a strategic transport hub and this upgrade will provide a real boost to the local economy.
> 
> ‘When we’re finished in December 2013 the station will have a modern main building, extra platforms to increase capacity and reduce congestion, easier access thanks to new lifts and longer platforms ready for new, longer trains serving more destinations.’
> 
> Peterborough is a major railway centre and hosts a complex mix of commuter and long-distance services travelling both east-west and north-south as well as burgeoning freight traffic – the station itself has two freight passing loops.
> 
> Network Rail’s redevelopment will increase capacity through the station, with two new platforms constructed on the west side of the station for use by trains travelling on east-west routes, freeing up the existing platforms for north-south services.
> 
> The current platform 3 will also be widened and a new platform added for future London-bound high-speed services from Peterborough. In addition to the new platforms, platforms 2 and 3 will be extended to facilitate future 12-car Thameslink services, which will provide direct connections from Peterborough to London and destinations across the South East.
> 
> Platforms 4 and 5 will be extended for future Intercity Express services, which will provide new trains on long-distance routes to the north of England and Scotland.
> 
> A new goods loop will also be created to the west of the station to increase freight capacity on the key cross-country route from the port of Felixstowe to the Midlands and beyond. A separate £3m scheme will provide a brighter, bigger entrance and a larger concourse at the station.


http://www.railstaff.co.uk/2012/02/03/platform-promise-for-peterborough/


----------



## IanCleverly

Today saw the start of operations in and around East Anglia / Outer London of Abellio Greater Anglia, replacing National Express East Anglia.



BBC News said:


> Dutch firm takes on East Anglia trains from National Express
> A new operator has started running train services across the eastern counties.
> 
> The British branch of Dutch train firm Abellio took over the Greater Anglia train franchise from National Express East Anglia just after 02:00 GMT. For the next 29 months, the company will provide train services across Cambridgeshire, Essex, Hertfordshire, Norfolk, Suffolk and links to London.
> 
> Abellio said its first priority was to improve customer service. The firm is now responsible for 3,000 employees and 43,000 individual train services per month, carrying 2 million passengers a week, a spokesman said.


Stoury, albeit briefly, continues Here


----------



## PortoNuts

> *New King’s Cross concourse to open in March*
> 
> *The new concourse at King’s Cross will be opened on 19 March, Network Rail said today. The redevelopment of the station started in 2007 and will be fully completed at the end of 2013 when a new public square is created.*
> 
> Ian Fry, Network Rail’s King’s Cross programme director, said:
> 
> “On the outside passengers have seen King’s Cross station transforming before their eyes for the last five years. We have been working hard behind the scenes to create a blend of old and new architecture with a strong mix of facilities worthy of the new-look station.”
> 
> Congestion at the station will be significantly reduced by new walking routes based on an innovative method of pedestrian modelling undertaken during the design phase of the project.
> 
> A new one-way system will direct passengers to enter the station via the new concourse, and exit via the existing concourse at the bottom of the platforms, allowing better connections to other forms of public transport at both ends of the journey.


http://www.rail.co/2012/02/07/new-kings-cross-concourse-to-open-in-march/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Waterloo Sunrise*
> 
> *One of Waterloo’s four disused Eurostar platforms is to be returned to service in 2014.*
> 
> Longer trains are to serve the terminus as the DfT announced plans to add extra carriages and upgrade the SWT commuter fleet. The carriages, which will allow around 8,000 extra peak-time passengers into Waterloo every morning, will begin arriving from May 2013, with all new services in place by July 2014.
> 
> Government funding means lease company, Porterbrook, will be able to create a fleet of 36 five-car suburban trains to run on South West Trains routes. This new fleet will enable around 8,000 extra peak-time passengers to travel into London’s Waterloo station every morning, as 8-car trains will be lengthened to run in 10-car formation on certain routes.
> 
> Alstom is masterminding the project. Known as Class 458/5, the improved fleet will be made up by converting two existing Alstom-built fleets, the Class 458s, used by SWT and Class 460s, formerly used by the Gatwick Express.
> 
> Modifications will include cabs, couplers, gangways, as well as conversion of baggage areas into passenger saloon areas. Up to 92% of the material content of the project will be sourced from the UK supply chain. Doncaster-based Wabtec will carry out the work.
> 
> Alstom is recruiting around twelve engineers in order to provide a team of twenty five dedicated to supporting the conversion project.
> 
> Says Transport Minister Justine Greening, ‘These extra carriages will help ease those conditions, while opening an extra platform will provide space for additional trains to run. But our plans do not stop here. We are now embarked on one of the largest programmes of rail investment since the Victorian era and we expect to introduce further carriages on Waterloo routes and bring more platforms into use in the future.’
> 
> Waterloo’s former Eurostar platforms have been out of use since 2007 when services switched to St Pancras. Since then the only rail activity the platforms have seen is a steam locomotive being propelled into the station as part of the Railway Children theatre production.


http://www.railstaff.co.uk/2012/02/10/waterloo-sunrise/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *New rail station plans for Energlyn unveiled*
> 
> *Plans for a new station at Energlyn have been unveiled today by Network Rail. The new station will be located between Aber and Llanbradach and will mean passengers at Energlyn could benefit from direct rail services to and from Cardiff, ‘potentially within two years’.*
> 
> Network Rail is holding a public exhibition so locals can give their feedback on the plans.
> 
> Mark Langman, route managing director for Network Rail Wales said: “This proposal is driven by a vision to transform the railway in Wales and, once delivered, will bring a huge benefit for Energlyn.
> 
> “Energlyn has seen a steady increase in passenger demand over the years and the proposed new station will cater for this growth and encourage sustainable travel, whilst improving the environment and socio-economics of the area.”
> 
> The exhibition is being held at Plasyfelin Primary School, Lewis Drive, Churchill Park, Caerphilly, CF83 3FT, between 4pm and 8pm on Thursday 9 February 2012.


http://www.rail.co/2012/02/09/new-rail-station-plans-for-energlyn-unveiled/


----------



## IanCleverly

^^ Well, we've been waiting for 10-15 years for one, so why the sudden interest now is beyond me. (I live nearer to this proposed station than the main station in Caerphilly)

There'll still be some decent competition with Stagecoach buses, as there are 4 buses an hour from Caerphilly (The 26 Cardiff -> Caerphilly -> Blackwood as well as 'local' Caerphilly services) which are cheaper, and are not _that_ slower than the train.

There are plans to provide loops on section(s) between Bargoed and Rhymney as well, as currently the Rhymney Valley line (which Energlyn will be on) only has one train an hour from Penarth/Cardiff Central to Rhymney.


----------



## PortoNuts

Competition means better prices for customers.


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Raising the roof*
> 
> *Plans to transform London Bridge station have been given the green light by Southwark Council.*
> 
> The station will have a completely new platform layout allowing high frequency trains on the Thameslink route. Britain’s largest station concourse will provide more space for passengers. Sadly the historic station roof will be demolished.
> 
> However new eye-catching entrances on Tooley Street and St Thomas Street will make the station more accessible and easier to use.
> 
> Says David Higgins, Network Rail’s chief executive, ‘London Bridge is one of the busiest stations in the country and this investment is vital for passengers who want more space, less congestion and better services.
> 
> ‘Our proposals will breathe life back into London’s oldest rail terminus and help build on the programme of regeneration along the South Bank and Bankside. It will provide a focal point for the local communities it serves as well as the tens of millions of passengers who use it every year.
> 
> ‘We are grateful for the support we’ve received and will continue to work closely with our partners and the local authority to deliver the project efficiently and considerately over the coming years.’
> 
> The station will remain operational throughout the redevelopment and will be complete by 2018.


http://www.railstaff.co.uk/2012/02/10/raising-the-roof/


----------



## bastholm

PortoNuts said:


> http://www.rail.co/2012/04/04/signalling-upgrade-to-cut-rail-delays-by-50/


Interesting. Will it be based on ERTMS?


----------



## PortoNuts

^^ERTMS is very limited in Britain.


----------



## Christopher125

Happy to be corrected, but im pretty sure it will be ERTMS albeit with lineside signalling. It will be upgraded to full cab signalling at a later date.

Chris


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## city_thing

I'm looking at train tickets around the UK in October and noticed that websites only let you buy three months in advance. Is there anyway of getting around that, or should I just wait a few more months?

Also, can you get a direct train from Newcastle to Glasgow Central, or do I have to change in Edinburgh?

Thank you.... anyone....


----------



## Jonesy55

I think three months is the maximum in advance you can buy. Check as soon as they go on sale if you know when you want to travel and you'll get the best prices.

It looks like all Newcastle-Glasgow trains involve a change at Edinburgh, journey time around 2:30 - 2:45 including change.


----------



## makita09

You can't book more than 3 months in advance because the trains don't exist in the ticketing system until 3 months in advance. A peculiarity of the way NR organise everything, despite the majority of services being pretty well known 6 months or a year in advance, the system keeps everything fluid until the deadline.


----------



## get13

Scotrail run a direct service from Glasgow Central to Newcastle however it isn't very frequent, stops a lot and is on an old crummy DMU so I wouldn't recommend it. Crosscountry also have direct trains which will be much more pleasant.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Railway stations to receive £1m investment for Commonwealth Games*
> 
> *ScotRail today announced a £1 million programme of improvements in passenger facilities at 19 stations in Glasgow and Lanarkshire in the run up to the Commonwealth Games in 2014.*
> 
> This will meet a commitment to Scottish Ministers to deliver enhancements to support spectators travelling by rail to the Games events.
> 
> Work will begin later this year at stations close to key venues and at ‘feeder’ stations which are expected to be used by many passengers throughout the major international sporting event in summer 2014. These will include new customer information screens, waiting shelters, seating and lighting.
> 
> Stations set to receive improvements include Argyle Street, Bellgrove, Carntyne, Glasgow Central Low Level, Hamilton Central and Hamilton West.
> 
> ScotRail will also work with Network Rail on a series of refurbishments at stations during scheduled maintenance periods.
> 
> In addition around £600,000 of funding, from Transport Scotland and Strathclyde Partnership for Transport, has been secured for further improvements – particularly to access – at 11 stations in Glasgow and Lanarkshire as well as Carnoustie, Angus.


http://www.rail.co/2012/04/11/railway-stations-to-receive-1m-investment-for-commonwealth-games/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Southeastern train refurbished in under 3 minutes*
> 
> *Transys Projects has released a timelapse video showing the refurbishment of a Southeastern train carriage.*
> 
> Transys has ‘nearly completed’ the 18-month long project to refurbish 148 Electrostar trains and install new CCTV systems.
> 
> ...


----------



## krnboy1009

Distance between Inverness and London is 400 miles, maybe a bit more.

Why does it need a sleeper?


----------



## TrueBulgarian

krnboy1009 said:


> Distance between Inverness and London is 400 miles, maybe a bit more.
> 
> Why does it need a sleeper?


Actually, it's more than 600 miles. I've traveled on that sleeper and it's reasonably full, so the demand is obviously there :cheers:


----------



## poshbakerloo

krnboy1009 said:


> Distance between Inverness and London is 400 miles, maybe a bit more.
> 
> Why does it need a sleeper?


It would be about a 10 hour drive without any traffic lol, so driving would need to be spread across today's anyway, so you might aswell do it overnight


----------



## Jonesy55

London-Penzance is only 300 miles but there is a sleeper service on that route too.


----------



## Suburbanist

TrueBulgarian said:


> Actually, it's more than 600 miles. I've traveled on that sleeper and it's reasonably full, so the demand is obviously there :cheers:


One daily sleeper is quite irrelevant in the whole picture.

I think nigh trains should be retired if they don't make money on themselves. Which is what happened to other night trains in UK. At least this market approach works better than making the elimination of night trains a political issue like it was in Italy.


----------



## Langur

The first 11-car tilting Pendolinos with a passenger capacity of 590 passengers entered service this week:


----------



## TrueBulgarian

Suburbanist said:


> One daily sleeper is quite irrelevant in the whole picture.


True, sorry for bringing that up. I just wanted to show that it's great for customers like me, who have early morning flights from London. Here are some stats though: 


> Figures seen by The Herald show there were 274,000 passengers carried between London and Scotland in the 2010/11 financial year, a 31% increase on five years earlier. [...] However, the figures, which were passed to The Herald by Government agency Transport Scotland after a Freedom of Information request, show the cost of operating the service is significant, with subsidy levels of at least £76 per passenger.


Source: heraldscotland.com


Suburbanist said:


> I think nigh trains should be retired if they don't make money on themselves. Which is what happened to other night trains in UK. At least this market approach works better than making the elimination of night trains a political issue like it was in Italy.


That's an interesting statement. If we decided that the government should not subsidize public transport like the Caledonian Sleeper, then quite a considerable amount of services would have to be retired. It's all of striking the right balance between the public interest of ensuring connectivity of regions like Northern Scotland that are far from the capital and the public interest of ensuring the most effective way of spending the subsidies budget. The subsidy level is clearly high, "... at least £76 per passenger", however, I don't think that it should be calculated per passenger. A more appropriate way would be to calculate it per passenger mile/km, since after all the service is clearly a long-distant one. :cheers: 
BTW, although the article in the Herald stresses on the competition of the short-haul flights, the real competition IMO is megabus. They offer a considerably cheaper service focusing on the low-cost student market with prices from Dundee to London starting at 23 pounds for a 10hrs 25mins trip. However, of course, it is also much more uncomfortable than the train.


----------



## krnboy1009

TrueBulgarian said:


> Actually, it's more than 600 miles. I've traveled on that sleeper and it's reasonably full, so the demand is obviously there :cheers:


Doesnt really seem to justify bedroom car service though. Maybe thats just me.


----------



## Jonesy55

If it's a ten hour trip I can see the attraction of sleeping in a bed for most of that time rather than sitting upright staring out of the window...


----------



## poshbakerloo

TrueBulgarian said:


> the real competition IMO is megabus. They offer a considerably cheaper service focusing on the low-cost student market with prices from Dundee to London starting at 23 pounds for a 10hrs 25mins trip. However, of course, it is also much more uncomfortable than the train.


I'm a student, and I would rather pay more for a comfortable 4hrs trip!


----------



## krnboy1009

Jonesy55 said:


> If it's a ten hour trip I can see the attraction of sleeping in a bed for most of that time rather than sitting upright staring out of the window...


I guess, if it leaves at night. 

When does it leave?


----------



## Jonesy55

krnboy1009 said:


> I guess, if it leaves at night.
> 
> When does it leave?


That's the idea, it leaves late evening, you arrive first thing next morning..


----------



## Think

makita09 said:


> You can't book more than 3 months in advance because the trains don't exist in the ticketing system until 3 months in advance. A peculiarity of the way NR organise everything, despite the majority of services being pretty well known 6 months or a year in advance, the system keeps everything fluid until the deadline.


The trains aren't inserted in the system everyday, so they exist in the booking system more than 3 months in advance, it's only they aren't shown to the purchasers.

Usually in all across Europe the changes take place in december and june, so the booking system is updated in any change for six moths. The reason because you can purchase only 3 months in advance is because if you sell a ticket for a train it has to run, so if you have to disrupt the service because any work or something like that you have to plan it three months before. If you sell tickets for six month every disruption, including if it takes only one day, have to be planned 6 months in advance. That's a lot of time for some maintenance works.

In the airports the works don't disrupt the service, and mayor works are planned with years, that's why the airlines can sell tickes near a year in advance.


----------



## makita09

krnboy1009 said:


> I guess, if it leaves at night.
> 
> When does it leave?


Ten in the morning, arriving 8 in the evening, its called a sleeper service because everyone in the UK is nocturnal. Edit - I may need to point out this is a joke.


----------



## Jonesy55

Leaves London 2115, arrives Inverness 0838

Leaves Inverness 2047, arrives London 0747

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/sleeperttdec11.pdf


----------



## krnboy1009

Then why does it need a dinner car? Cant imagine anyone eating dinner that late.


----------



## Jonesy55

:dunno: I think many people would eat dinner at that time, especially if it was a sort of 'event' like going on a sleeper train. Go to regular restaurants at 2100-2230 or later in some cases and they will often be busy...


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## PortoNuts

> *Construction work begins on Dalmarnock redevelopment*
> 
> *The main construction work has now begun on the creation of a new £11m station for Dalmarnock in Glasgow’s East End. Following extensive preparatory and enabling works, Network Rail and contractors C Spencer Ltd are now building a new station on Dalmarnock Road to replace the existing facility on Swanston Street.*
> 
> Network Rail said that ‘in order to construct the new station in a safe and secure way, the current facility will be closed to the public from 3 June 2012 to 25 November 2012′.
> 
> The station is being redeveloped in time for the Glasgow 2014 Commonwealth Games, when it will be a key transport hub for those travelling to and from many of the Games’ events. It is also a ‘key element of the long-term regeneration’ of the East End of Glasgow.
> 
> The project is being funded by Clyde Gateway, Glasgow City Council and Strathclyde Partnership for Transport, with an additional contribution secured through the European Regional Development Fund.
> 
> Network Rail is delivering the project on behalf of Transport Scotland and the funding partner.


http://www.rail.co/2012/04/13/construction-work-begins-on-dalmarnock-redevelopment/


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Support for £450m Heathrow link line*
> 
> *PLYMOUTH is backing a campaign to have a new rail link to Heathrow Airport, writes Keith Rossiter, Political Reporter. Journey times to Heathrow could be sliced by three-quarters of an hour if a link from the country's busiest airport to the main Great Western Railway is built.*
> 
> The section of rail less than four miles long would spare passengers the journey into London Paddington and back to Heathrow, or the alternative of catching a coach from Reading.
> 
> Plymouth's rail task force has written to colleagues in the Thames Valley pledging its support to the Western Rail Access to Heathrow (WRAtH) project. The task force has written to the chief executive of Slough Borough Council, which instigated the project.
> 
> Clive Perkin, assistant director for transport at Plymouth City Council, said: "So much business traffic comes through Heathrow Airport that we need to look at how we work with other organisations to form a long-term plan to improve the connections we have. It is good for employment opportunities and potential investors in the region."
> 
> David Parlby, chief executive of Plymouth Chamber of Commerce, said: "We need to look at all projects which have the potential to benefit the region's growth and we look at ways to support them both now and in the future. This scheme is in its infancy, but is already gathering pace.
> 
> "Early indications show that benefits for the city could create up to 100,000 more passengers, 30,000 fewer car journeys, 6,000 jobs created as well as up to £20million gross value added to the local economy."
> 
> The link is estimated to have a £450 million price tag but would improve the journey for 20 per cent of the UK population.


http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Sup...ow-link-line/story-15857516-detail/story.html


----------



## sotonsi

> WRAtH


what a brilliant acronym - and one that didn't need much work to create a title that makes it (bacronyms suck).

I think the link is being oversold there - it's certainly an excellent and much needed scheme, but the benefits are being inflated there. By the time it is built, Crossrail would make the change-at-Reading and Hayes option practical. Also the link will certainly not get direct trains from Plymouth (diesel and underground stations/tunnels problem) and likely not Bristol, Bath, Swindon or Oxford (though Oxford is more likely) - it will be change-at-Reading for Intercity services on the GWML. If you have an optimistic 2018 date for opening, that's still only 6 years before Old Oak Common opens - which on it's own would remove quite a few minutes of those worst-case 45.


----------



## krnboy1009

Can someone explain to me how privatization of British passenger rail system works? Railroads are always a monopoly. The amount of tracks and demands are severely limited from one area to another, how does privatization in this circumstances help any riders?


----------



## Jonesy55

They also compete against motorways and air travel...


----------



## Suburbanist

krnboy1009 said:


> Can someone explain to me how privatization of British passenger rail system works? Railroads are always a monopoly. The amount of tracks and demands are severely limited from one area to another, how does privatization in this circumstances help any riders?


To understand it one must get over the idea that tracks and trains are not severable from a managerial viewpoint. 

The infrastructure (tracks, most stations etc) is maintained as a semi-public entity (Network Rail). Network rail keeps tracks that are opened for the private franchises of rail operating companies.

These companies might compete with each other in certain routes and there are a handful of open-access companies as well. 

Just think: one could see motorways were "natural monopolies" but that doesn't mean different truck companies or bus companies compete in the same markets! Ditto for airports, ports etc...


----------



## krnboy1009

Getting a better idea but the amount of rails compared to roads are severely more limited I would think. How can companies compete with each other? Is it possible to do the same service at the same time? I imagine not.


----------



## NCT

On-track competition is very limited on UK's railways as open-access operators are few and far between. In reality each major corridor is only served by one Train Operatorating Company (TOC), though for some local journeys there are trains of different TOCs to chose from (slow vs fast services for example). Competition exists mainly at the tendering stage where companies bid for franchises (corridors). There are operator-specific tickets but many ticket types are valid 'on all reasonable routes'. Some tickets are also regulated.


----------



## sotonsi

NCT, while you explain it well, there is, however, some competition between franchises.

You have 'cheaper, but stopping' options like London Midland/First Capital Connect only tickets between London and Birmingham, Peteborough, etc. (Neither of these is really 'local').

You also have 'cheaper, but a different, slower route' options like Chiltern/WCML between London and Birmingham and also London - Southampton/Portsmouth Southern only tickets (using the direct trains via Gatwick and Horsham) in competition with the SWT routes.


----------



## makita09

^^ Exactly. There is also the important revenue formulae. If two TOCs operate between the same two places then revenue is divided between the TOCs based upon what proportion of the trains between the two towns are theirs, vs the total revenue from passengers. (Not the best explanation....)

i.e. the amount of revenue a TOC takes is not necessarily how many passengers it carried. eg the system is complicated.


----------



## makita09

Sopomon said:


> Firstly, if anyone has a map of the UK network by operator, and another by electrification, that'd be great.


Map of electrification

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/british-isles/british-isles.gif


----------



## Sopomon

Thank you very much NCT and makita09, though I'm still surprised that no-one seems to know about this mysterious Virgin service


----------



## Jeff Hawken

Sopomon said:


> I'm still surprised that no-one seems to know about this mysterious Virgin service


The East Coast Main Line is blocked between Newcastle and Edinburgh every Sunday for several weeks. The 12:33 (Sun) Euston to Edinburgh runs to provide an alternative link between London and Edinburgh. It is scheduled to call only at Preston, because its main purpose is to convey through passengers rather than serving the intermediate market. (It has to call at Preston for a crew change in any case). 

A rare example of co-operation and joined-up thinking in the UK rail industry!


----------



## k.k.jetcar

^^
Of course this was the norm in BR days (diversions) due to track maintenance.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

*Hitachi Rail Europe selects MTU to power IEP trainsets*



> IRJ at InnoTrans 2012: HITACHI today announced it has selected MTU as its preferred supplier for the contract to supply and maintain 250 700kW diesel powerpacks for Britain's Intercity Express Programme (IEP).
> 
> MTU will supply a specially-designed powerpack built around its 12V 1600 R80L engine, with Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), induction generator, and Capos starting system.


http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...engine-contract.html?channel=529#.UFsnWK4mw-0

Compact V12 underfloor unit (click on middle pic for bigger image):
http://www.tognum.com/press/press-r...mages/cHash/d80e54016f174fbb726c9d6b2a33061f/

details from the builder:
http://www.tognum.com/index.php?id=...001023&cHash=188f746cafa8d8a80a314659e520d898


----------



## Sopomon

Jeff Hawken said:


> The East Coast Main Line is blocked between Newcastle and Edinburgh every Sunday for several weeks. The 12:33 (Sun) Euston to Edinburgh runs to provide an alternative link between London and Edinburgh. It is scheduled to call only at Preston, because its main purpose is to convey through passengers rather than serving the intermediate market. (It has to call at Preston for a crew change in any case).
> 
> A rare example of co-operation and joined-up thinking in the UK rail industry!


Oh I see, and that's why there were East Coast trains running through Carlisle as well


----------



## trainrover

Too bad this handsome class plagued by problems ...






Its general training video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-EO4iLZEA


----------



## Neb81

makita09 said:


> Map of electrification
> 
> http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/british-isles/british-isles.gif


Gods, that's a pretty depressing picture. I knew the level of electrification on the UK network was low, but it only really hits home when you see a map. Outside of the old NSE area, it's embarrassing. 

Also, there are some routes there that should obviously have infill electrification and/or double-tracking carried out, like Reigate-Guildford-Reading and Hastings-Ashford. Having to run both diesel units alongside the electrics on the ECML must be incredibly wasteful, for the sake of taking the wires up to Aberdeen and Hull.


----------



## makita09

^^ It is but at least the DfT and the Govt have finally decided electrification is worth it. In 15 years time that map won't look nearly as depressing.

Re the ECML, at the moment there aren't enough electric trains to run the timetable anyhow - some London - Leeds and London - Edinburgh trains are run by diesels as it is. I believe Scotland has (distant) plans to electrify to Aberdeen, and Hull may reachable by electric trains if an infill between the ECML and the trans-penine electrification when (if) they extend to Hull.


----------



## CityDreamer

*HS2 could be re-routed..*

HS2 could be re-routed to Heathrow

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9576183/HS2-rail-line-could-be-re-routed-to-Heathrow.html

The more this goes on, the more I feel that HS2 will never get built.


----------



## Neb81

CityDreamer said:


> HS2 could be re-routed to Heathrow
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9576183/HS2-rail-line-could-be-re-routed-to-Heathrow.html
> 
> The more this goes on, the more I feel that HS2 will never get built.


I think it will get built (eventually), but that it will try to do too many things and do none of them well. The gov't seems to have an obsession with running HSR like a regional rail service. We only have to look at the debacle of the ever increasing number of stations that have been added to HS1 to see what they are thinking over Heathrow. 

I'd rather it just focus on simple point-to-point intercity service, and be properly integrated fare and timetable wise with the larger rail system than try to use it as a substitute for west London's suburban rail problems.


----------



## 33Hz

I would not trust the Torygraph to not be stiring it up here. There is no need for the route to deviate significantly from the existing plan to get into Heathrow. Doing so would only add 3 minutes to the timings of through trains.

It would be a joke not to route the backbone of our 21st century railway system through the country's main airport when it is passing within spitting distance. Doing so will allow hundreds of thousands of transit passengers to go by rail each year and ease pressure on the airport, which along with better redistribution of flights to other London airports and Birmingham can avoid a third runway. Not to mention create an interchange with the GWML. It has nothing to do with a regional rail option for London.

Absolutely this should be built.


----------



## 33Hz

Removed


----------



## sotonsi

33Hz said:


> I would not trust the Torygraph to not be stiring it up here. There is no need for the route to deviate significantly from the existing plan to get into Heathrow. Doing so would only add 3 minutes to the timings of through trains.


And cost a few billion extra.
And with the needed OOC station, it doesn't save much more than 5 minutes for this ~3% of traffic and adds 10 minutes onto everyone's journey.

I guess you could ditch OOC to keep the difference down to three, rather than ten minutes, but that would overload Euston and Crossrail through West London (you'd certainly need 24tph to the Heathrow Hub - not that that will fit on the GWML slows!). Not to mention that any time saved for Reading/Heathrow/Southall passengers would be time lost for the 12x as many West End/City/Docklands via Crossrail passengers that would have used OOC.


> Not to mention create an interchange with the GWML.


It's called Old Oak Common!


----------



## trainrover

Neb81 said:


> the ever increasing number of stations that have been added to HS1


:uh: For real?

I'm having *no* luck scoring functioning hits on HS1 timetables or services; I have learned that DB operates freight services along that line







What's going on with this line, e.g., what are its stations nowadays?


----------



## sotonsi

HS1 has stations at St Pancras, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet and Ashford. i.e. same as always, with similar service pattern and never any international trains at Stratford International!

IIRC, more Eurostar calls have been added at Ashford, but they were originally Ashford ones that were transferred to Ebbsfleet when that opened.

And the Javelin trains call at all stops, with the same frequencies as originally, leaving the line at Ashford (the successful ones) or Ebbsfleet (the less successful ones).


----------



## makita09

And DB are only tentatively testing the line for use with freight and this is only when HS1 is not busy.


----------



## Neb81

sotonsi said:


> HS1 has stations at St Pancras, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet and Ashford. i.e. same as always, with similar service pattern and never any international trains at Stratford International!
> 
> IIRC, more Eurostar calls have been added at Ashford, but they were originally Ashford ones that were transferred to Ebbsfleet when that opened.
> 
> And the Javelin trains call at all stops, with the same frequencies as originally, leaving the line at Ashford (the successful ones) or Ebbsfleet (the less successful ones).


So is Stratford not being used for Eurostar after all???


----------



## 33Hz

sotonsi said:


> And cost a few billion extra.
> And with the needed OOC station, it doesn't save much more than 5 minutes for this ~3% of traffic and adds 10 minutes onto everyone's journey


If this is 3% of traffic then how do Virgin think they can operate a new service between Heathrow and Manchester? How come the London to Scotland routes are BA's busiest in the world? How are there 2/3s of a million passengers a month flying between London and Scotland?

I'm not saying it isn't a small bit of the overall market, but siting the station elsewhere would be another bit of non-joined-up transport thinking in this country. I'm saying move the OOC station west and build the proposal the Arup put foward a couple of years ago. And make it an M25 parkway while you are at it.



Neb81 said:


> So is Stratford not being used for Eurostar after all???


Not yet. Give them a chance to sort out the Olympic Park stuff first. No reason why DB mightn't use it if they are seeking to link financial centres.


----------



## Woonsocket54

UK government cancels decision to award rail franchise to run West Coast Main Line to FirstGroup. 

http://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/253272806756864001


----------



## Dobbo

makita09 said:


> ^^ Yes to both. Power supply upgrades will take place in advance of the IEP, and the ECML is scheduled to get ETRMS in the next 10-15 years.


Thanks M - sure will make a difference... no more power lines KO'd by high winds!


----------



## Jonesy55

trainrover said:


> Breathtaking beauty :drool: Series 2, Episodes 11 through 15, two parts per episode:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ZlVpszDfo
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-hWdFrKfXk
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MW6hipkBz0
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOQe1KsbvGE
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OlCS_jRPpI
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTRhvj9QlCM
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjGetTyiths
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCp-9l7gPeo
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHydqzbP-xk


I shared a platform with Mr Portillo and a small tv crew a few weeks ago at Shrewsbury station while waiting for my train to work. He took the train in the direction of Aberystwth/Pwllheli which is a nice trip. I guessed they must have been filming for the next series....


----------



## trainrover

Wow, that recent, huh? coz that's the series I'm currently watching. I'll highlight the Shrewsbury part/s when I share them here. I suppose that recentness explains the nippy weather he and his crew experienced on the north Welsh coast thereafter.


----------



## Jonesy55

^^ Already? Are you sure that wasn't the last time he passed through and took the line up to Wrexham-Chester-Llandudno-Holyhead?

The most picturesque line out of the town though imo is neither of those two but the route to Swansea via the 'Heart of Wales' line. It's an inland route through hills, moorlands and tiny villages, not heavily used with only a few trains per day often consisting of just one carriage each!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Wales_Line


----------



## trainrover

The beauty of the series is what interests me ... I couldn't care less about any certainty of when each series must've been filmed ... you have pegged the runs I'm watching, however ... to and from Fishguard is the prettiest train trip I remember taking over there ...


----------



## trainrover

Enchanting :drool: Series 2, Episodes 6 through 10, two parts per episode:





​
Shrewsbury, although episode filmed 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hElp_JQCOJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-kIhnfwW6s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od9BvcTIYC8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj_lQl-Vlwk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvVP_lDp2Eg

£2200 model loco featured at around 11'38" :uh:: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk85Hmk4dM4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC_R_e5T4-M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoNd6OeR_dM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCbsi-C3btc


----------



## makita09

Sopomon said:


> Is the WCML also being resignalled?


Not for ages, its just been renewed.



Dobbo said:


> Thanks M - sure will make a difference... no more power lines KO'd by high winds!


I think they have a rolling plan to sort out the catenary troubles, I thought you meant more juice so they can run more electric trains.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## Dobbo

makita09 said:


> I think they have a rolling plan to sort out the catenary troubles, I thought you meant more juice so they can run more electric trains.


Might as well kill two birds with one stone i guess...


----------



## Sopomon

As someone who regularly commutes the entirety of the ECML, it'd be really nice if they'd get some bloody tilting trains on the route too. Up in the borders and just south of Newcastle, the speed is really heavily restricted by the amount of curves on the line and how tight they are. Morpeth, anyone?
And yeah, 140 mph would be great too, 3h30 to London and I'm a happy man.


----------



## makita09

^^

Once IEP is deployed along with the signalling upgrades it will be 140mph I imagine. Tilting trains will have to wait until some can be cascaded from the WCML once HS2 phase 1 opens, even then I'm not sure they'll bother - would only affect Darlington - Edinburgh really, the rest of the route is fine for 140mph already (mostly).



Dobbo said:


> Might as well kill two birds with one stone i guess...


They don't need to be done together - they are quite discrete functions - one invloves a possession, the other doesn't (usually)


----------



## trainrover

Series 2, Episodes 16 through 20, two parts per episode:





​
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx9W0bj7TlI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h21mP_YGrSQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks8_qnursh4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVGavygJB5Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZe151WlKe0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcAGFZrYEiA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoawxoxNG94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAOpNzVNkQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxFS4-QWhlc


----------



## Christopher125

While IEP is a possibility - hopefully a remote one - for replacing the electric fleet, 140mph wont be happening anytime soon not just because of the need for cab signalling but the impact on track capacity. Tilt certainly won't be happening, the very limited benefits simply don't justify the costs.

Chris


----------



## makita09

Yeah I agree, although long term 140 mph may be useful once HS2 removes the long non-stop services. Over the Doncaster - KX section you can stop at two more places and keep the same 125mph* path if the top speed is increased to 140.

* Estimate based on no thought

Re tilt, I think it could happen, but not for London-bound services. And only if a tilt strategy was deployed for XC and/or TP. I'd say 50/50 this happening before Betelgeuse goes supernova.


----------



## Neb81

Is the IEP design related to the Hitachi A-Train, like the Javelin, or is it completely new?


----------



## 33Hz

In Roger Ford's last email he said that the e-Voyager project has been quietly killed, citing the electrification programme as the likely reason. But even with all the planned new electrification there will still be many gaps (Oxford - Leamington Spa? Birmingham - Sheffield?) In fact, I would think this would lead to even more diesel running under the wires. Another missed opportunity.


----------



## 33Hz

Some good news Network Rail to start Scotland’s Borders Railway project in 2013


----------



## makita09

^^ I disagree, it was not cost effective to build the e-cars. It seems that Bombardier themselves seem to have come to this decision.


----------



## 33Hz

This is the problem for any custom build for the UK network.

Was this cost effectiveness study taking into account 20-30 years of diesel savings, for example? Does it feed into the business case for the electrification programme itself (another 'customer' for it)?

Did Bombardier factor in the way this opens the door for another IEP bi-mode customer? i.e. they are effectively chucking in the towel on the UK market.


----------



## sotonsi

33Hz said:


> But even with all the planned new electrification there will still be many gaps (Oxford - Leamington Spa?


Nope, that's part of the 'Electric Spine', which was added and will be taking priority.


> Birmingham - Sheffield?)


Birmingham-Derby would be a gap


> In fact, I would think this would lead to even more diesel running under the wires. Another missed opportunity.


Depends - if you change the service pattern so that you have NE-SW and NW-SE services you would reduce it so that one service is fully electrified, and the others will only have short bits under the wires, with the exception of the ECML bit and the new MML bit - but little more than now given that the Coventry - Manchester and Basingstoke - Bournemouth bits will now be used by only electric trains. This is likely to happen.

Also, the Sheffield and Nuneaton - Southampton 'electric spine', together with the GWML and Transpennine schemes, is intended to be 'phase 1' of a roll out of electrification - so the plan is to not need diesel-electric intercity trains for long.


----------



## makita09

33Hz said:


> Was this cost effectiveness study taking into account 20-30 years of diesel savings, for example? Does it feed into the business case for the electrification programme itself (another 'customer' for it)?


Yes. It was taking into account everything they could think of, as is is the usual practice (for a commercial business that is - they rarely get lost in their own alimentary canal on such matters hence why the private sector typically achieves better cost-effectiveness).



> Did Bombardier factor in the way this opens the door for another IEP bi-mode customer? i.e. they are effectively chucking in the towel on the UK market.


Well of course, they would have had to have made a strategic decision, and no doubt will have factored this in. I can't imagine Bombardier panicking too much - its not as if they aren't a global player in a global industry that is going through the greatest boom since the 1840s. And they're not chucking in the towel - its not that dramatic a situation imo.


----------



## trainrover

Finale ... overall a most memorable series of productions, superbly filmed ... beautiful clouds, fascinating strangers met along the way ... also reminds me how aggravating tinted windows are for me ...

Series 2, Episodes 21 through 25, two parts per episode:





​
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqLunjd7yPU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDQiaHThTi8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwdPEnGa8kE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_BZfWb0dRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9U1gjs62J8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMy_e6AMsmE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTFzBvYbAys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd02HAafkLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzO0gwlvp04

---​


----------



## Sopomon

Just a note: 

Media have reported that finally, the tearing down of the hideous green concourse in front of Kings Cross Station has commenced.

CELEBRATE.


----------



## Swede

Sopomon said:


> Just a note:
> 
> Media have reported that finally, the tearing down of the hideous green concourse in front of Kings Cross Station has commenced.
> 
> CELEBRATE.


YAY! :banana:

I'll make sure to spend some time in the area next time I'm in town. :cheers:


----------



## Hoskins

trainrover said:


> Finale ...


You know there was a third series and now a fourth series will be out on British TV in January?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railway_Journeys

Currently on our TV (the BBC of course) there's a few new hour-long specials with Portillo doing the same thing but in Europe.


----------



## trainrover

Ah! thank you for telling me about the further series :bow: Searching Utoob yielded nought...I've just scored the further 25 episodes :drool:


----------



## trainrover

Tell me, what's the name of the series currently being broadcast there? 'Series 4'? And do you know the title of the series filmed on the continent that'll be aired January? :?


----------



## makita09

Hoskins said:


> You know there was a third series and now a fourth series will be out on British TV in January?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railway_Journeys
> 
> Currently on our TV (the BBC of course) there's a few new hour-long specials with Portillo doing the same thing but in Europe.


Cool! I was not aware.


----------



## Hoskins

trainrover said:


> Tell me, what's the name of the series currently being broadcast there? 'Series 4'? And do you know the title of the series filmed on the continent that'll be aired January? :?


No, currently being broadcast are the "Continental" journeys, which are about an hour long each; there will be 5 episodes in total. They are called "Great Continental Railway Journeys" and so are not part of the Great British Railway Journeys series numbering.

In January, like the previous three Januaries for us British, will be the new (Great British Railway Journeys) series, which will be Series 4.


----------



## trainrover

Oh right, of course :bow: I misread your initial reply, was too hasty...thank you!

:cheer:


----------



## Hoskins

I'm pleased you're enjoying Portillo's work and Britain's heritage!


----------



## trainrover

Oh? I hadn't been paying attention to the closing credits to each episode. What's the politician's creative say on the series' content? He's more the stand-in as far as I could tell, I'm inclined to give the BBC most of the credit...really polished productions is their output there, the UK's really fortunate :yes:


----------



## Hoskins

He's more than just "the stand-in"! He clearly is interested in what he's doing in presenting the programme, talking to others and to camera about his views and feelings on matters. I'm not saying it's "political" in any way though: it clearly isn't (and Portillo has left politics now anyway).


----------



## makita09

Portillo seems to love trains, he's been making programmes about them for years now, even before this format he did others. I remember a documentary he did about Spain's economy ages ago resulting with a programme mostly about the Spanish AVE.


----------



## trainrover

16 Nov 2012







:
_Railway firm fined £180,000 after 13-year-old electrocuted _​


----------



## KingNick

You fucking kidding me?


----------



## M-NL

Depends who's responsible for the infrastructure of this rail yard. If it's EWSI they should have taken sufficient precautions, which they didn't. But as the UKs rail network is under authority of Network Rail, shouldn't they have taken those measures (and thus be fined for failing to do so instead of EWSI)?


----------



## trainrover

I agree. The inspectorate oughtta be penalized too.


----------



## Fatfield

The Times Mapping the Railway.

An Amazon Black Friday special available from 11:30GMT today. Linky.


----------



## PortoNuts




----------



## makita09

flierfy said:


> While electrification is certainly overdue on many mainlines in Britain, any further speed increases there are completely out of the question. Faster trains cost capacity which British Rail can ill-afford.


Its completely out of the question except on the lines where it isn't, and where linespeeds are being increased to 200km/h as I type. But yeah, apart from that its out of the question.....


----------



## makita09

I shall come back in a month to correct the next collection of invalid memes....


----------



## IanCleverly

Me said:


> (Shown in the UK on 22nd January 2013) (Part 2 of 3)


And finally, Part 3 of 3 (shown in the UK on 29th January 2013)


----------



## k.k.jetcar

> Faster trains cost capacity which British Rail can ill-afford.


It can be done on two track lines, if you institute timed overtakes. Whether the railways can apply the schedule discipline to make it work is another matter.


----------



## flierfy

k.k.jetcar said:


> It can be done on two track lines, if you institute timed overtakes. Whether the railways can apply the schedule discipline to make it work is another matter.


That might work in Japan where railways are extremely well maintained and train-drivers are punished for being late. But certainly not not in Britain or elsewhere in Europe.


----------



## SteveAWOL

BBC Two - The Railway: Keeping Britain on Track



> Documentary series revealing the inner workings of Britain's railways, introducing the track-workers, train guards, drivers, police officers and management teams determined to keep the country moving.
> 
> 1. Kings Cross
> 
> Documentary following the staff at London's King's Cross station, the gateway to Leeds, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh for the 47 million people who travel through the station every year.
> 
> The 1970s concourse at King's Cross is cramped and dark, doing nothing to help the spirits of the passengers - something that Alexis, who works on the passenger information point, knows all too well from her experience of dealing with frustrated travellers. Steve, who sells tickets in the travel centre, says he regularly relies on his conflict resolution training.
> 
> There is hope that a brand new concourse will lift everyone's spirits. East Coast manager Steve Newland wants the opening to coincide with customer service levels worthy of a five-star hotel, a vision that is frustrated when broken-down trains and fatalities on the line bring everything to a standstill.
> 
> Laxman has worked at the station for 35 years, during which time he has witnessed both an IRA bombing and the King's Cross fire. He is a much-loved staff member but will not be there to see the new concourse filled with passengers, as retirement beckons. His last day at work is a very sad one for everyone at the station.


----------



## IanCleverly

Some (Well, 2) recent photographs of the improvement work happening with Reading station:- 


Reading Station Remodelling Footbridge Removal 10/03/2013 005 by Dave C1, on Flickr


2013-03-02 | 13 new subway - north entrance by Mark & Naomi Iliff, on Flickr


----------



## AndreiB

I have to say, while it looks like a great operational improvement, architecturally I find it a bit disappointing.

I would have preferred one grand trainshed covering the platforms & tracks, considering how often it rains at Reading. I would also have liked a more daring shape.

Does anyone know the proposed service pattern in the future? Currently almost all long-distance trains stop at Reading, which impacts the comfort of long distance passengers as they are crushed in next to Reading commuters at Peak Times.

I realise that currently there is little sense for not stopping at Reading, but with future capacity it might be worthile skipping Reading on a few select peak time trains from Bristol/Cardiff?


----------



## Bart_LCY

Great documentary about Waterloo Station in 1944. Did it change a lot? 

From wdtvlive42 channel on YT:


----------



## Rational Plan

Bart_LCY said:


> Great documentary about Waterloo Station in 1944. Did it change a lot?
> 
> From wdtvlive42 channel on YT:


The technology may have changed and everything looks cleaner, but in essence it is exactly the same.


----------



## trainrover

07 June 2013







:
_Beeching Night _19h00 GMT, Sunday, 09 June, BBC Parliament channel
_
Beeching: Railway vandal or visionary?_​


----------



## 437.001

Hi there. 

I have 4 questions:

What about the electrification of the GWML, is that going ahead?

And if so, have works already started, or just the preliminary works (bridges, tunnels & etc)? 

This electrification should be in service by the time Crossrail opens, or it would open at the same time as Crossrail?

The first phase was only till Bristol, or would it involve the Severn tunnel as well?

Thank you.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Hi there.
> 
> I have 4 questions:
> 
> What about the electrification of the GWML, is that going ahead?
> 
> And if so, have works already started, or just the preliminary works (bridges, tunnels & etc)?
> 
> This electrification should be in service by the time Crossrail opens, or it would open at the same time as Crossrail?
> 
> The first phase was only till Bristol, or would it involve the Severn tunnel as well?
> 
> Thank you.


I thought someone from UK would answer you, but since none did here is what I know:

- GWML eletrification has been approved and is moving ahead
- preliminary works only as far as I know
- Electrification will be done in stages so perhaps not all of it will be in operation when Crossrail is finished
- Initial plan was for electrification only till Bristol, but after some heavy lobbying it was decided to electrify until Swansea thus including Severn tunnel (technically challenging). Several commuter lines in Cardiff area will be electrified as well.


----------



## Christopher125

Sunfuns said:


> I thought someone from UK would answer you, but since none did here is what I know:
> 
> - GWML eletrification has been approved and is moving ahead
> - preliminary works only as far as I know
> - Electrification will be done in stages so perhaps not all of it will be in operation when Crossrail is finished
> - Initial plan was for electrification only till Bristol, but after some heavy lobbying it was decided to electrify until Swansea thus including Severn tunnel (technically challenging). Several commuter lines in Cardiff area will be electrified as well.


Perhaps surprisingly Network Rail have said the Severn Tunnel isn't a great challenge, it benefits from good clearances and though wet this isn't an unusual issue. As for the GWML, Crossrail electrification is the first priority with a lot of bridge work completed or underway as are electrification depots and stockpiling of materials, but things will really start moving with the arrival of the high output electrification train presumably later this year.

Chris


----------



## NottinghamGuy1988

*History of the Great Central Railway (Preserved)*

The Great Central Railway (GCR) is a heritage railway in Leicestershire, named after the company that originally built this stretch of railway.

The GCR is currently Britain's only double track mainline heritage railway, with 5.25 miles (8.45 km) of working double track, period signalling, locomotives and rolling stock. It runs for 8.25 miles (13.28 km) in total from the large market town of Loughborough to a new terminus just north of Leicester.

Four stations are in operation, each restored to a period in the railway's commercial history, the 1950s Loughborough Central, Second World War and the remainder of the 1940s Quorn & Woodhouse, the Edwardian Era Rothley and the 1960s Leicester North

(Source of information is from the Wikipedia Website)


----------



## NottinghamGuy1988

*Great Central Railway 2013, United Kingdom -BRIDGE TO FUTURE.*

*Great Central Railway to 'bridge' the gap between Leicester and Nottingham within five years.*

*May 30 2013 By Isaac Ashe (Loughborough Echo)











(The picture above of the main bridge over the Midland Main Line at Loughborough, is from the Great Central Railway's main website)

GREAT Central Railway is hoping to ‘bridge’ the gap between the Loughborough heritage line and the Nottingham section to the north with the news a connection is to be built over the Midland Mainline. GCR has launched a £1m Bridge To The Future fund-raising appeal after forming a parnership with Network Rail to build a bridge over the Midland Main Line at Loughborough.

Design work is underway and the new structure made up of two reclaimed rail bridges from Reading is expected to be in place running over the four tracks of the Midland Mainline by mid-2015 - allowing the demolished 500m link between the two sections, rejoining Leicester to Nottingham via an 18 mile heritage railway. GCR managing director Bill Ford said: “We are delighted to announce this incredible step forward. “Building this bridge unlocks the rest of the re-unification project which will create an attraction with truly international appeal.”

Following the bridge’s construction, other elements of the overall project include repairing an existing canal bridge, building a new bridge over Railway Terrace Road in Loughborough and replacing a missing embankment. The estimated cost for the complete scheme is £8m, and it is hoped trains will be running within five years. Mark Fowler, of Great Central Railway Nottingham, said: “There is huge interest and excitement amongst both railway enthusiasts and the general public in seeing this project succeed. “It is vitally important to us that the local communities join us in this vision too. It will drive economic benefit during construction and in the longer term too.” Phil Verster, route managing director for Network Rail, said: “Our electrification teams are already making significant changes to the infrastructure in this area so it’s the ideal opportunity to get the bridge in place, with minimal disruption and cost. “Once the full scheme is complete it will bring significant economic benefits to the region as well as reinstating a piece of our railway heritage.”

Loughborough MP Nicky Morgan has worked to bring about reunification. She said: “This is an incredibly exciting project for Loughborough, Leicestershire and beyond and I am delighted to give it my whole-hearted support. “We have all seen the bridges lying next to the GCR station in Loughborough. To realise that, with the support of Network Rail and other key parties, their re-use to bring together the two parts of the Great Central Railway is now within sight, is a thrilling prospect.

“I am convinced that reunification will bring big benefits to our local economy and I do hope everyone locally will support this important first step.”Nigel Harris, chairman of Great Central Railway Development, said: “This agreement is the start of the Great Central’s most exciting adventure yet; the delivery of a vision of an intercity heritage railway.
“It’s been a very long haul to get to this point, especially over the last 20 years, but what has unlocked the problem has been Network Rail’s willingness to work in partnership with GCR, Charnwood Borough Council, Loughborough MP Nicky Morgan and other stakeholders. "The whole community is invited to participate. If you’ve ever wanted to see this happen, now is the time to act!”

To support the appeal, or for more information about building the bridge and the rest of the reunification project, visit www.gcrailway.co.uk/unify










The Gap is clearly shown in the image above from BBC News.


**For more Information on Britian's only double track main line steam railway, please have a look at this video on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCSZl9D-mOY*


----------



## 437.001

Hi there.

I have a question.

If ever a railway was to be built on the Spanish side along the Costa del Sol from Fuengirola to La Línea, and in the now-not-so-likely case that Gibraltar were interested in it, these two questions come to mind:

a) would that be a National Rail affair, or would that be Gibraltar devolved stuff?

b) is it feasible to bore a tunnel under the airport? 

Though I guess that an underground station right at the border with the entrance in UK territory would be the most likely solution, of course. 
But that would be unpractical for those going to Gibraltar town.


----------



## Hoskins

437.001 said:


> a) would that be a National Rail affair, or would that be Gibraltar devolved stuff?


It wouldn't have anything to do with National Rail/Network Rail - they cover a specific railway network in Great Britain (ie not even all railways there). Running a railway isn't a nationalised function. I could build and run my very own railway in Britain (indeed new preservation lines open now and again even today - some even run regular 'non-preservation' passenger trains) and it would have diddle-squat to do with Network/National Rail. The only national authority that would be involved would be Her Majesty's Railway Inspectors... but only if it were open to passengers.

In any case, Gibraltar is not part of the UK. It is a British overseas territory and is almost entirely self-governing. Devolution doesn't even come into it - that term only applies to N. Ireland, Wales and Scotland.

Going back to your hypothetical railway that would lead into Gibraltar, I would imagine it would be owned and run by whatever operator runs the Spanish part of the line. The Gibraltar government would oversee safety & security aspects in its territory, of course, but I doubt they'd even get involved in timetables, pricing, etc, for passengers, unless there were more than one station in Gibraltar... which is unlikely. Indeed - as you suggest - any such railway would most likely terminate just at the border, staying within Spanish territory, as a) Gibraltar is crowded and it would be difficult to build into it without great costs and b) it's just not worth running trains through the border checks etc.


----------



## sotonsi

437.001 said:


> b) is it feasible to bore a tunnel under the airport?


Yes - they are planning on doing it right now, to remove the level crossing between the entrance road and the runway by building a new dual carriageway that goes in a big U-on-its-side under the terminal and the east end of the runway.


----------



## 437.001

sotonsi said:


> Yes - they are planning on doing it right now, to remove the level crossing between the entrance road and the runway by building a new dual carriageway that goes in a big U-on-its-side under the terminal and the east end of the runway.





Hoskins said:


> It wouldn't have anything to do with National Rail/Network Rail - they cover a specific railway network in Great Britain (ie not even all railways there). Running a railway isn't a nationalised function. I could build and run my very own railway in Britain (indeed new preservation lines open now and again even today - some even run regular 'non-preservation' passenger trains) and it would have diddle-squat to do with Network/National Rail. The only national authority that would be involved would be Her Majesty's Railway Inspectors... but only if it were open to passengers.


In this case it would be a commuter train. No freight at all, nor long-distance rail.



> In any case, *Gibraltar is not part of the UK. It is a British overseas territory* and is almost entirely self-governing. Devolution doesn't even come into it - that term only applies to N. Ireland, Wales and Scotland.


This is a strange notion to me. We´re not used to this "being British but not part of the UK". Curious. :hmm:



> Going back to your hypothetical railway that would lead into Gibraltar, I would imagine it would be owned and run by whatever operator runs the Spanish part of the line. The Gibraltar government would oversee safety & security aspects in its territory, of course, but I doubt they'd even get involved in timetables, pricing, etc, for passengers, unless there were more than one station in Gibraltar... which is unlikely. Indeed - as you suggest - any such railway would most likely terminate just at the border, staying within Spanish territory, as a) Gibraltar is crowded and it would be difficult to build into it without great costs and b) it's just not worth running trains through the border checks etc.


The idea came from the fact that there is indeed a number of British citizens living across the border in the Costa del Sol, greater even than the population of Gibraltar itself. So I guess that it might be of some use to them to have an access. 

I don´t know if you´re aware or not, but there´s actually a plan of extending the commuter train line from its current end at Fuengirola to Marbella, Estepona and Algeciras. This plan is currently shelved due to the crisis, obviously, as it would involve loads of tunneling that we can´t afford by now. And it would be phased (Fuengirola to Mijas and Marbella, then Marbella to Estepona, then Estepona to Algeciras).

Between La Línea and San Roque station there´s an old disused freight branch that would probably be re-used.

I guess though that the cheapest option would be a surface station at northern La Linea, and then bus shuttles to Gibraltar.

Thanks for the info in any case. kay:


----------



## Manchester77

Robi_damian said:


> What train is in the first picture? Mighty weird...


The APT-E, prelude to the APT-P shown in the last picture. 

APT-E was a gas turbine train and was used to test the brand new tilting equipment. Without that train I doubt we would have pendolino since BR sold the design to fiat after the press killed off the APT-P. Irony is that the current trains on the WCML are derived from the trains seen in the last image. Sad really


----------



## Robi_damian

Manchester77 said:


> The APT-E, prelude to the APT-P shown in the last picture.
> 
> APT-E was a gas turbine train and was used to test the brand new tilting equipment. Without that train I doubt we would have pendolino since BR sold the design to fiat after the press killed off the APT-P. Irony is that the current trains on the WCML are derived from the trains seen in the last image. Sad really


The APT-E looks very weird, but I think the narrower British loading gauge augments this by making the boogies very prominent.

The APT-P, however, is a beauty. It could pass for a late 90's design with ease.


----------



## Manchester77

It's a pity that the APT was killed by our press (which I fear is being done to HS2) as we could be seeing them running up and down our trunk routes today!


----------



## Black Watch

That shot of the APT is incredible. If history had been different...

Here are some more historic shots, focusing mainly on steam this time:












































Just imagine the noise she would've been making...


----------



## Manchester77

While on the topic of the APT an equally unique train the Bulleid 4DD the our only double decker train built in the late 40s withdrawn in 1971. I say double decker however it's more split level however, a unique train!


4-DD unit 4902 a survivor against all odds. by Marra Man, on Flickr

More info here - http://www.bulleidlocos.org.uk/(S(xx2p3dqkz5r5zhlzvbz1du0m))/_oth/4_dd.aspx


----------



## 437.001

Where was the YouTube filmed, on the WCML?



Black Watch said:


>


Is that ^^ on the line that goes through Barrow-in-Furness? :?




Black Watch said:


>


And this one ^^ must be London-Liverpool Street? :?:sly::?


----------



## Robi_damian

^^ Isn't the first one somewhere around Dawlish?


----------



## Fatfield

Robi_damian said:


> ^^ Isn't the first one somewhere around Dawlish?


No, its Grange Over Sands in Cumbria.


----------



## Fatfield

@437.001 - Yes its the same line as Barrow-in-Furness.


----------



## purple_cat

And this one ^^ must be London-Liverpool Street? :?:sly::?[/QUOTE]

Yes, no doubt about it


----------



## Manchester77

*South West Trains*

South West Trains is a stagecoach operated franchise operating services out of London Waterloo to the South West of England. They operate some of the busiest trains in the UK.

450017, Waterloo, May 16th 2013 by Solent Images, on Flickr
A typical scene at Waterloo (from the left trains are 450, 455, 450, 455)

SWT are embarking on a major capacity increase, the first phase is converting the old Gatwick Express 460s in new 458/5s:

Vaders at rest by fig3, on Flickr
The old 460s pre-conversion.

458014, Clapham Junction, April 7th 2005 by Solent Images, on Flickr
The current 458s pre-conversion

The new 458 by stavioni, on Flickr
The 458/5 post conversion.
The project takes the two fleets and combines them creating 36 5 car trains. the first 6 are made completely out of converted 460s. The remaining 30 are made up of the existing 4 car 458s with a centre coach from the 460s added in. All trains are then given a new end gangway.
The second phase of this project involves new EMU which will ultimately replace the new 458/5s which will then be cascaded onto other SWT routes.


----------



## Manchester77

437.001 said:


> Where was the YouTube filmed, on the WCML?


Yes probably the northern stretches where most of the iconic APT images were taken


----------



## warkon12

South West Trains-worst rail company in England. Never on time, always owercrowded, bad customer service etc.


----------



## Manchester77

Ok why don't we swap TOCs then you can have the clapped out pacers and sprinters and we'll have the modern desiros and refurbished PEP stock!

Seriously, South West Trains average PPM is 91.5 (data from Network Rail) compare that with the other ex-NSE TOCs - Southern 87.9, SouthEastern 91.0, Thameslink 87.4. Also consider this, SWT are the busiest commuter franchise in the country serving both the busiest stations in terms of passengers (Waterloo) and services (Clapham Junction) - now do you see why they're crowded. Also read my post and see how they're actively working with Network Rail to help ease overcrowding and then come back and tell me they're the worst TOC ever!!


----------



## warkon12

This is my opinion, for over two years I had to travel with SWT because of my school. For me SWT is, not really amazing.


----------



## Manchester77

Never said they were however when presented with facts you can see how much better they are than other TOCs


----------



## Black Watch

437.001 said:


> Where was the YouTube filmed, on the WCML?


The video description says it was between Norton Bridge and Great Bridgeford in Winter 1984.

Also, I have to say, the new 458/5s aren't exactly good-looking.


----------



## Sopomon

^^
If you want worst rail company in the UK, try FCC.

Filthy rolling stock, incessant cancellations and delays and some of the worst staff anywhere on the network. Their twitter team is a disaster.

SWT in comparison is a joy to commute with.


----------



## 33Hz

Watching the APT vid above led me to this. The introduction is somewhat ironic given where we are now with HS2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSMSSdL2yeo


----------



## Black Watch

Came across this video of the Class 303's last revenue-earning run:




Hard to believe that this was nearly 11 years ago. 

On the subject of the 303's, one of the best liveries I think they carried was the SPT 'carmine & cream' livery:









Closely followed by the BR 'Blue & Grey' livery:










Edit: Just stumbled across this:








One of the very few times that a 170 has ever made a appearance at Glasgow Central. I don't think it's happened since this was taken.


----------



## Maarten Otto

33Hz said:


> Watching the APT vid above led me to this. The introduction is somewhat ironic given where we are now with HS2.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSMSSdL2yeo


Yes, they HS2 project was sold on the wrong grounds. HS2 shouldn't be based on speed, but on capacity. And whilst you build a new railway, why not design it to allow for higher speeds in the same time. It took some years for the politicians who support HS2 to understand that fundamental basic principle of ''WHY" you should build a new railway. 

I don't think Birmingham will gain much on HS2, a mere 20 minutes isn't going to make that much difference in the way people travel. But 1 hour of from Manchester or Leeds will get some people out of their car, if prices for rail tickets are competitive enough.


----------



## sotonsi

Don't forget that it's actually half-an-hour quicker over most trains between Euston and Birmingham, and twice the capacity.

Also, Birmingham gains tons by being at the centre of the High Speed network, with fast trains to the North, as well as London. 2tph to Leeds, Manchester and Manchester Airport, 3tph to Meadowhall and East Midlands Parkway (from Curzon St - additional trains from Interchange). Hourly fast trains to Newcastle and York that bypass the slow section of the XC network in South/West Yorkshire...

Not to mention the relief on the classic network.


----------



## Maarten Otto

Don't expect any 'relief' on the current network. If your train goes elsewhere, someone else will soak up the capacity.


----------



## Black Watch

Class 334 'Juniper'










Operator: First Scotrail

Builder: Alstom

Number built: 40 (Originally 38, two added as a goodwill gesture)

In service: 2001- present

Max Speed: 90 mph (145 km/h)

Lines Operated: North Clyde Line & Argyle Line​
Probably the best looking member of the 'Juniper' family, the Class 334s were built to replace the last of the venerable Class 303 'Blue Trains', which had served Glasgow for over 40 years. They did have their fair share of technical problems (much like the Class 458s), which delayed their introduction by a year. They later settled down to provide reliable service. These days, you'll mostly see them on Helensburgh - Edinburgh duties, but they'll sometimes appear on the Dalmuir - Motherwell runs.


----------



## Manchester77

The first of First TransPennine Express' 10 Class 350/4s was delivered a few days ago. The 10 trains will operate Manchester - Scotland services from the December (30/12/13 is the date that seems to be the first public service). The trains will operate new services via Wigan rather than Bolton however they will switch back once electrification of the line via Bolton is complete. From the December timetable change trains will operate via Wigan however the big improvements come in the May 2014 timetable change when TPE will have all their new 350s. They will operate at up to 110 mph and will allow the existing Class 185s to be cascaded to strengthen services via Leeds. However not all trains will become electric as there aren't enough so some Friday night trains will remain timed for 185s as the 350s will be doubled up. This is just the beginning of service improvements on TPE which will all culminate in the electrification if the line via Leeds across the Pennines in 2016 which is part of the North West electrification scheme!
Image of the first 350/4 (350401) being delivered to Crewe for testing with London Midlands existing 350s:
http://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains2013-1/November-2013/i-8kv8VM3/A


----------



## M-NL

Are there other countries besides the UK that use asymmetric headlights?


----------



## trainrover

In the past, Brits used to ... I think we're just seeing a faulty headlamp in the image above here.


----------



## Black Watch

The first Class 68 under test:





It sounds a lot better than I thought it would.


----------



## rrphoto

trainrover said:


> In the past, Brits used to ... I think we're just seeing a faulty headlamp in the image above here.


We still do, left headlamp for night, right for day.

Headlamps on trains here don't necessarily light the track ahead, they are used to light signs etc in the cess.


----------



## trainrover

Ah!

Say! what's the tecnical name for (car) foglights, anybody know? I've forgot the term for ages now.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

M-NL said:


> Are there other countries besides the UK that use asymmetric headlights?


In ex. Soviet Union countries shunters have a light on only on one side and on both ends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JPmtchxWG4

When on double track line on the wrong tracks the front of the train should have one white and one red light









And the taillights of passenger trains are asymmetric


----------



## M-NL

rrphoto said:


> We still do, left headlamp for night, right for day.
> 
> Headlamps on trains here don't necessarily light the track ahead, they are used to light signs etc in the cess.


I can understand that that approach was used in the past when headlights were not very bright and your view ahead in the dark was actually better with less light. But with todays lighting technology this doesn't make sense to me anymore. What's then the argument to still keep this left/right difference?


----------



## Black Watch

Five Deltics, One Train
22nd September 2012




No matter how many times I watch this, that noise sends a shiver right up my spine. Truly the king of British diesel locomotives.


----------



## dimlys1994

Timelapse of former Finedon railway station bridge rebuilding, as part of Midland Main Line upgrade:


----------



## dimlys1994

Today:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Work-gets-underway-to-transform-old-New-Street-station-1f2b.aspx
> 
> *Work gets underway to transform “old” New Street station*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Tuesday 3 Dec 2013
> North West & West Midlands_
> 
> Work has begun to transform the east side of Birmingham’s New Street station, which was the main station entrance until the opening of the new concourse in April this year.
> 
> The original, 1960s-style concrete façade has been a familiar sight on the Birmingham skyline for the last 50 years, but is now being removed in large sections as the transformation from pebbledash to the stunning stainless steel cladding which will transform the exterior of the station begins.
> 
> Chris Montgomery, Network Rail project director said: “Our work outside New Street station will contribute towards the creation of a world class transport hub for Birmingham that’s fit for the 21st century. The stainless steel façade will completely transform the tired, old exterior into a stunning modern building that is already taking shape on the north side of the station, adding to the city’s growing reputation for good design.
> 
> “Inside we are delivering a station that Birmingham can be proud of and that will be able to handle the ever increasing numbers of passengers who want to use the railway, with a bigger concourse, better facilities and new lifts and escalators improving access to and through the new station.”
> 
> The project will also deliver better pedestrian connections across the city and new public space in the heart of the city centre.
> 
> Next year, Network Rail and Birmingham City Council will be running a competition which will give the people of Birmingham the opportunity to name the new public square on the station’s east side, which will open as part of the redevelopment in 2015.


Below renders of renewed station:


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/First-step-in-the-rebuild-of-the-railway-at-Britain-s-busiest-station-1f2d.aspx
> 
> *First step in the rebuild of the railway at Britain's busiest station*
> 
> _Wednesday 4 Dec 2013
> London & South East_
> 
> The start of a major improvement programme to renew the infrastructure at London Waterloo station is planned to take place during the Christmas period.
> 
> The Network Rail and South West Trains Alliance will be investing around £1m in track upgrades as part of an ongoing programme of improvements to boost reliability on one of the busiest sections of railway in Britain.
> 
> The programme of work carried out over Christmas will include the replacement of critical switches and crossings which are more than 30 years old and are used to control train movements into the busiest part of Europe’s most heavily used station. The work will affect platforms 1 to 9 which will be out of use while the track work takes place.
> 
> The improvement works have been timed to ensure the least disruption for passengers and will take place on 27, 28 and 29 December. Traditionally during the Christmas holiday period, around half the number of passengers travel on services to and from London Waterloo than at other times of the year.
> 
> Train services will continue to run throughout the works with around half of the normal level of trains available for passengers. However, some services will start and terminate at stations away from London Waterloo and passengers may have to change trains to complete their journeys. Passengers are strongly advised to check the timetable in advance of travel for details of the changes on journeys into Waterloo and other changes to the timetable over Christmas. Detailed information can be found at southwesttrains.co.uk/XmasEng2013.aspx.
> 
> Tim Shoveller, managing director of the Network Rail and South West Trains Alliance, said: “With more than 100m passengers a year travelling through Waterloo station there is never a good time to carry out work which affects the level of service we can provide.
> 
> “However, we normally see around half the number of passengers travelling over Christmas than at other times of the year, so it provides a good opportunity to carry out much needed improvement work on the track on the busy approach to the Waterloo station. This will provide a more reliable infrastructure which will help to deliver a better level of service to passengers.
> 
> “Since the start of the alliance, we have hugely increased the amount of maintenance on our network and are now investing an extra £3 million a year to improve the quality of the infrastructure on the UK’s busiest commuter network. At the same time, we are pushing ahead with plans to significantly improve the infrastructure around Waterloo station by extending existing platforms and bringing all of the former international platforms back into use.”
> 
> A 350 tonne road crane will be used to lift pre-built sections of track onto the railway. The track will then be moved into place using a crane operated from on the railway. The old track will be removed from the worksite by an engineering train.
> 
> Tim Shoveller added: “Using a road crane to lift pre-built sections of track onto the railway is part of the alliance’s efforts to complete the work as quickly as possible and keep disruption to a minimum. We are committed to improving the network and will continue to invest in Waterloo station and the track on the approach to provide a better railway for passengers.”
> 
> A multi-million pound package of improvements will build on the work over Christmas and further improve the reliability of the infrastructure and help boost capacity.
> 
> Platform 20 in the Waterloo International Terminal will be brought into permanent use in April 2014 and work will take place during 2014 to reinstate further platforms in the terminal. Extra carriages will be added to trains to provide additional capacity and seats for passengers.


----------



## 437.001

dimlys1994 said:


> Today:
> 
> 
> 
> *Work gets underway to transform “old” New Street station*
> 
> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...to-transform-old-New-Street-station-1f2b.aspx
Click to expand...

I don´t dislike it, but I wonder why every new big station everywhere (not just in the UK) _HAS TO_ look like a ufo... :sly:


----------



## K_

437.001 said:


> I don´t dislike it, but I wonder why every new big station everywhere (not just in the UK) HAS TO look like a ufo... :sly:


Why is it that UFO's mimic modern train station designs?


----------



## 437.001

K_ said:


> Why is it that UFO's mimic modern train station designs?


The other way around, I suspect. New stations look like the Death Star, they´re all intergalactic, or so they pretend.
I´m a bit more classicist. Give me stations like the one in Mulhouse, please. Functional, modern, but still beautiful.


----------



## Sunfuns

437.001 said:


> Give me stations like the one in Mulhouse, please. Functional, modern, but still beautiful.


Mulhouse??? I was there just yesterday and didn't notice it being anything particularly special. Particularly with everything being closed after 9 pm... The classically built station in Colmar is much nicer, I think.


----------



## Manchester77

437.001 said:


> I don´t dislike it, but I wonder why every new big station everywhere (not just in the UK) _HAS TO_ look like a ufo... :sly:


Not every station does that, for example Eccles has recently had a new station building installed as part of electrification works: http://www.freccles.org.uk/images/new_booking_office.jpg
The new reading doesn't either http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/65984000/jpg/_65984739_readingjanuary30.jpg

The thing is at New Street you're having shops and stuff on top of the new building but I can't really see the UFO look in any other of the new stations being done up.


----------



## K_

Sunfuns said:


> Mulhouse??? I was there just yesterday and didn't notice it being anything particularly special. Particularly with everything being closed after 9 pm... The classically built station in Colmar is much nicer, I think.


Mulhouse is terrible. First stop after Basel and you really notice you're no longer in Switzerland...


I find UK stations quite nice, especially since there are so many old ones that are nevertheless in pretty good shape.


----------



## 437.001

Sunfuns said:


> Mulhouse??? I was there just yesterday and didn't notice it being anything particularly special. Particularly with everything being closed after 9 pm... The classically built station in Colmar is much nicer, I think.





K_ said:


> Mulhouse is terrible. First stop after Basel and you really notice you're no longer in Switzerland...


Mulhouse, terrible? Admitting that I also like Colmar station better, I do not think Mulhouse station is horrible at all. It´s Art Déco, although less flashy than Limoges-Bénédictins station (which I guess makes it look newer than it actually is). Limoges-Bénédictins is only 5 years older than Mulhouse station.



K_ said:


> I find UK stations quite nice, especially since there are so many old ones that are nevertheless in pretty good shape.


I agree about the old ones. London-Paddington, for instance.



Manchester77 said:


> Not every station does that, for example Eccles has recently had a new station building installed as part of electrification works: http://www.freccles.org.uk/images/new_booking_office.jpg
> The new reading doesn't either http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/65984000/jpg/_65984739_readingjanuary30.jpg
> 
> The thing is at New Street you're having shops and stuff on top of the new building but I can't really see the UFO look in any other of the new stations being done up.


I know it doesn´t really look like a UFO, I was just generalizing a bit about new stations, which I find a bit soulless.
Compare any new station to Paddington or Liverpool Street, and I think you´ll understand what I mean.


----------



## Jonesy55

The new Birmingham New St station is going to be 100x better than the old one, with shops etc on top of it a traditional design was never really an option anyway.


----------



## 437.001

Jonesy55 said:


> The new Birmingham New St station is going to be 100x better than the old one,


This I acknowledge. Even if I find the new UFO-like stations a bit soulless, anything´s better than the 60s/70s/80s concrete horror.



Jonesy55 said:


> with shops etc on top of it a traditional design was never really an option anyway.


I wasn´t claiming for a classic-looking station. I don´t dislike it, especially when compared to the old 60s/70s/80s building. In fact, big stations, these days, you build them with the shops right from the start.


----------



## Manchester77

437.001 said:


> Compare any new station to Paddington or Liverpool Street, and I think you´ll understand what I mean.


Liverpool Street now is nothing like what it was in the 80s. I remember using it when I was a child and thinking they ought to give it a good clean, well network southeast did that they basically rebuilt the station!
They went from this:

Liverpool St Station by [email protected], on Flickr
To this (still being finished off):

Liverpool St rebuilding nearly complete by [email protected], on Flickr
Finished Station:

Liverpool Street. 30 Oct 2011. by Pete 1957, on Flickr

Quite ruthless really, in fact other than the roof over the platforms (roof over concourse was part of the 80s/90s refurb) the only Great Eastern part of the station left I think is the wall of the hotel and war memorial:

Liverpool St Station by [email protected], on Flickr

Although the new building was tasteful in my opinion the demolition of old Liverpool Street (and Broad Street for that matter!) is a great loss


----------



## dimlys1994

Cool video from Paddington:


----------



## Black Watch

*Clapham rail disaster: Memorial service held*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25349254

A two-minute silence has been held to remember 35 people who died in the Clapham rail crash 25 years ago.

The silence was held at 08:13 GMT the exact time the three-train collision happened close to Clapham Junction station in south London.

Survivors attended a service at the crash memorial site near the scene of the accident, which took place on 12 December 1988.

Survivor George Gillon, from London, said he was "one of the lucky ones".

On the day 71-year-old Mr Gillon was travelling from Hampshire in the third carriage of the London-bound Bournemouth train.

"I was one of the lucky ones," he said.

"A number of my friends on that train were killed."

A second memorial service was also held at the memorial site, which was attended by train drivers and representatives of their union, Aslef.

Prayers at the service mentioned the pupils of nearby Emanuel School, who helped treat the injured after the crash.

'Important lessons'
In 1988 two commuter trains carrying an estimated 1,300 passengers between them collided before Clapham Junction. A third empty train later ran into the wreckage killing some passengers who had survived the first crash.

Before the service, rail minister Baroness Kramer paid tribute to those who had lost their lives in the disaster.

"Important lessons have been learnt since then and Britain today has one of the safest rail networks in the world," she said.

"However, we must never become complacent. We must always make sure that safety remains the number one priority on our railways."


----------



## Black Watch

47818 at Singer
September 14th 2013








Probably one of my best railway photos.​


----------



## Manchester77

First TrasnPennine Express has begun testing their new Class 350/4s over the newly electrified line via Eccles to Wigan. This marks the end of Phase One of the north west electrification program with another five to follow! There are currently 3 350/4s in the UK with the first service expected to be on the 30/12/13. 

First TPE 350402 & 350403 at Preston by Rorymacve Part II, on Flickr


----------



## Black Watch

^^ That livery looks similar to the one that the 350/1's carried when operated by Central Trains & Silverlink.



437.001 said:


> Even if I find the new UFO-like stations a bit soulless, anything´s better than the 60s/70s/80s concrete horror.


Glasgow Queen Street is one of the worst in Scotland:









Hopefully, within the next few years, it'll look like this:


----------



## Manchester77

The livery on the new 350/4s is the London midland base livery (without the green vinyls)


----------



## 437.001

Black Watch said:


> Glasgow Queen Street is one of the worst in Scotland:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, within the next few years, it'll look like this:


icard: Indeed...


----------



## Black Watch

I knew I wasn't dreaming when I first saw this:








APT passing Partick in 1985 on it's way to Exhibition Centre to work a special to Euston.

Source: http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/331/


----------



## dimlys1994

Today official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Network-Rail-responds-to-ONS-reclassification-announcement-1f5b.aspx
> 
> *Network Rail responds to ONS reclassification announcement*
> 
> Tuesday 17 Dec 2013
> 
> The Office for National Statistics (ONS) has today announced a statistical change to its classification of Network Rail as a result of changes in European accounting guidelines.
> 
> As a result, Network Rail's debt, around £30bn, is to be reclassified as public sector debt for the purpose of government statistics. These new guidelines and the resulting reclassification come into effect on 1st September 2014.
> 
> This reclassification of Network Rail as a central government body is a statistical decision that does not alter the company's structure as a not-for-dividend company, limited by guarantee, with Members rather than shareholders. The business acts and operates today as it did yesterday, and its job of delivering a safe, reliable and improving railway for four million daily users continues.
> 
> Network Rail and the DfT have also published today a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) that gives some more detail of how they will work together to ensure that the company's business continues as usual. The MoU also acknowledges that some small changes will be necessary as the company becomes accountable to parliament for its finances. At least initially, the company will continue to raise debt to fund its ongoing investment programme whilst the longer term funding options are considered.
> 
> Critically, for example, the company will retain the commercial freedom to work collaboratively with train operators and suppliers in delivering sustainable improvements in the railway under the well established regulatory framework that provides stability of funding through the five year regulatory review process.


----------



## IanCleverly

Stafford's (on the West Coast Mainline) Signal Box.


Stafford No. 4 Signal Box, 2 by LowdhamGPR, on Flickr


Stafford No. 5 Signal Box, 6 by LowdhamGPR, on Flickr

And one that was close to me before removal in September 2013, being Ystrad Mynach:-

Ystrad Mynach South 12 by LowdhamGPR, on Flickr


----------



## Manchester77

Proper signalling free of computers! Similar to Stockport 2 which I always get a good look at on my way in/out!


----------



## MarcVD

IanCleverly said:


> Stafford's (on the West Coast Mainline) Signal Box.


Nice ! Is this a SAXBY frame ?
And do you know the color meanings for the levers (like white = switch, red = 
stop signal, blue = distant signal, etc) ?

Many thanks !

Marc.


----------



## Manchester77

Normally white is disused, red signal, blue points I think


----------



## dimlys1994

Today on Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ens-outsources-signalling-design-project.html
> 
> *Siemens outsources signalling project design*
> 19 Dec 2013
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Whitby station, which is served by franchised operator Northern Rail as well as the heritage North Yorkshire Moors Railway (Photo: NYMR)._
> 
> UK: Siemens has appointed Indian company Infotech to undertake the signalling design work for a project to increase capacity at Whitby station, which is served by franchised operator Northern Rail as well as the heritage North Yorkshire Moors Railway.
> 
> The signalling contract awarded to Siemens in October covers design, supply, installation, testing and commissioning, with completion scheduled for May 2014.
> 
> 'Although we have worked closely with Infotech for over seven years, previously we have outsourced only selected elements of design work', said Siemens Delivery Director Rob Cairns on December 12. 'However, given the company's proven track record, we took the decision to place the whole of the design work to the Hyderabad-based team for this project.
> 
> 'With an increasing demand for design services forecast throughout Network Rail's Control Period 5, it is likely that this will be the first of many such schemes to be handled by Infotech, as we look to increase our total design capacity through the partnership arrangement,' he added.
> 
> 'Outsourcing design work in this way is assured by the quality and thoroughness of the scoping work provided by our UK teams, ensuring that all design outputs are in accordance with UK standards and working practices'.


Whitby station is on Esk Valley line and has single track. But Network Rail announced reinstallation of the second track by next year. What about North Yorkshire Moors Railway, it's well known that on Goathland station Harry Potter films were filmed. These photos from Wikipedia:


----------



## eu01

How many of the defunct UK railway lines (most of them closed and usually removed in 1960's - 70's as the result of dr. Beeching's cuts) have later been reinstated? I suppose it's a very insignificant number, am I right?


----------



## DaeguDuke

eu01 said:


> How many of the defunct UK railway lines (most of them closed and usually removed in 1960's - 70's as the result of dr. Beeching's cuts) have later been reinstated? I suppose it's a very insignificant number, am I right?


Airdrie-Bathgate, Borders railway line (under construction), Kincardine line, a couple branches in Greater Glasgow. And that's just Scotland from the last few years. Currently the St. Andrews line and a Dunfermline line are being considered too


----------



## Black Watch

eu01 said:


> How many of the defunct UK railway lines (most of them closed and usually removed in 1960's - 70's as the result of dr. Beeching's cuts) have later been reinstated? I suppose it's a very insignificant number, am I right?


The Glasgow Central Railway (the future Argyle Line) was one of them. The section between Maryhill Central & Finnieston was never reopened, although the tunnels are still there.


----------



## IanCleverly

MarcVD said:


> Nice ! Is this a SAXBY frame ?
> And do you know the color meanings for the levers (like white = switch, red =
> stop signal, blue = distant signal, etc) ?


I've no idea, sorry.



eu01 said:


> How many of the defunct UK railway lines (most of them closed and usually removed in 1960's - 70's as the result of dr. Beeching's cuts) have later been reinstated? I suppose it's a very insignificant number, am I right?


There's no numbers involved as to how many miles of track, but a Campaign for Better Transport 'mini-booklet' produced last year may give you a vague idea as to what's going on.

Campaign for Better Transport - Reopening Transport link


----------



## Crownsteler

In the thread about the Dutch railways there was some discussion about electrification in the UK. I know they are electrifying the routes between Liverpool and Manchester, as well as planning to electrify the line from London to Penzance.
Now I was just wondering, how are things coming along, and are there other electrifition projects?


----------



## Suburbanist

*Schematic map of all passenger-service British rails*

This is an interesting map (PDF link). It shows with all passenger rail and shows the TOC that run trains over each of them

(Zoom in for legibility)


----------



## Manchester77

Crownsteler said:


> In the thread about the Dutch railways there was some discussion about electrification in the UK. I know they are electrifying the routes between Liverpool and Manchester, as well as planning to electrify the line from London to Penzance.
> Now I was just wondering, how are things coming along, and are there other electrifition projects?


http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/strategic-business-plan-for-cp5/

CP5 will see many electrification projects begin and be completed, North Western electrification Phase One is complete and from 30/12/13 350/4s will begin operating along the new wires via Newton Le Willows. Greater Western electrification is from Paddington along the Thames Valley lines to Bristol and South Wales to name a few. Penzance is not being wired and will continue to be served by the existing HST sets whereas the rest of the InterCity network on GW will be served by 800s and 801s


----------



## Jonesy55

The Valley Lines commuter routes into Cardiff are also seeing some electrification I think.


----------



## dimlys1994

Render of new Bromsgrove station:



















And this is Bromsgrove station now. Photo from Wikipedia:


----------



## Coccodrillo

Hi, I read that there are plans to electrify the Hurst Green-Uckfield and Ashford-Ore lines. They are in the third rail region, but there are also plans to convert all of it to 25 kV AC. Any news on that? Would these two lines be directly electrified at 25 kV AC, even if the conversion of the other lines might not happen for decades?

Maps:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/london-area/london-area.gif

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/british-isles/british-isles.gif


----------



## Manchester77

Conversion of the southern region won't happen for many more years, in CP5 network rail are intending to convert Bournemouth to Southampton to 25kV AC as part of the electric spine works. Most of the new southern region stock (375-378, 444, 450) have pantograph wells built in for easy conversion. I'd imagine that the two lines you've mentioned would either remain diesel, operating using 171s or be electrified in the standard manor and could use 377/5s for example to replace the 171s which would be cascaded onto other parts of the network.


----------



## Coccodrillo

Thank you. I rememebr also having read that some third rail equipment is old, so that replacing it with AC overhead could be worth it. Similarly for 1.5 kV DC in southern France (ageing electrical infrastructure to be replaced anyway), although in France there would be far less clearance problems (high voltage AC still requires some more clearance, but not as much as converting from third rail).



> be electrified in the standard manor


...which is 25 kV, right? (third rail is the standard in this region, 25 kV AC is the standard for entirely new electrifications worldwide)


----------



## Manchester77

Yes, while in previous reports from the 50s, which first recommended the use of 25kV the 3rd rail 660/750DC for southern, Network Rail and the DoT have identified they wish to replace this system stating its outdated and inefficient since something like 40% of the energy is lost through heat as well as being a bit awkward with lots of 12 car trains on one route (hence substation upgrades in CP4 for the SW)


----------



## 33Hz

It may be worth you reading this from Network Rail

2009 Electrification Strategy: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...rk\Working Group 4 - Electrification Strategy

2012 update: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ork\Working Group 6 - Electrification Refresh


----------



## Coccodrillo

Thank you, the answer to my question is in your links:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ation strategy/networkrus_electrification.pdf page 52



Coccodrillo said:


> Hi, I read that there are plans to electrify the Hurst Green-Uckfield and Ashford-Ore lines. They are in the third rail region, but there are also plans to convert all of it to 25 kV AC. Any news on that? Would these two lines be directly electrified at 25 kV AC, even if the conversion of the other lines might not happen for decades?





> 6. Options
> Table 6.1 – Options to address type A gaps
> Gap A1.1
> Ashford to Ore
> Option A1.1
> Electrify Ashford to Ore with DC electrification. Convert Brighton to Ashford service to electric traction.
> Gap A2.1
> Uckfield to Hurst Green
> Option A2.1
> Electrify Uckfield to Hurst Green with DC electrification. Convert Uckfield to London service to electric traction.
> Gap A3.1
> Wokingham to Ash and Shalford to Reigate
> Option A3.1
> Electrify Wokingham to Ash and Shalford to Reigate with DC electrification. Convert Reading to Gatwick Airport and Reading to Redhill local services to electric traction.


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...amme-delivers-bigger-better-railway-1f74.aspx
> 
> *Record-breaking festive rail investment programme delivers bigger, better railway*
> Thursday 2 Jan 2014
> 
> A record-breaking programme of upgrades to Britain’s rail network was successfully completed over the Christmas and New Year period, providing new tracks, new and longer platforms, new lifts and footbridges at stations, upgraded signalling equipment and electrification equipment to allow cleaner, faster electric trains to run.
> 
> At more than £100m, the festive investment programme was the biggest ever carried out by Network Rail and was planned in conjunction with train operators to minimise the impact on passengers during what is traditionally one of the quietest periods for rail travel.
> 
> Hundreds of engineers from Network Rail and its suppliers worked the equivalent of more than 600,000 hours at more than 100 locations across Britain over the period, often in extremely difficult weather conditions.
> 
> Highlights of the work completed include:
> 
> 
> A new platform, track and signalling equipment at Gatwick Airport station. Around 1300m of track was laid, a 50m footbrige was renewed and 250m new platform, complete with a new lift, escalators and high-level walkway to the station was completed.
> Commissioning of new signalling equipment at Peterborough, part of a wider project to relieve a major bottleneck on the East Coast Main Line which includes a new track layout, longer platforms, station bridges, extensions and new lifts (completion March 2014).
> Electrification work at Manchester Victoria, which saw 400m of track lowered and 1300 tonnes of spoil removed to create additional headroom for overhead power lines so electric trains can run from Manchester to Liverpool starting in December.
> Installation of a new rail bridge in Ipswich, part of a 1.1km stretch of new railway connecting the East Suffolk Line and Great Eastern Main Line to increase rail capacity to the port of Felixstowe (completion March 2014).
> A major ugrade of Gravesend station is scheduled for completion on Sunday 5 January as planned. The upgrade includes a new platform and will allow longer 12-car trains to call at the station for the first time, providing more seats and extra space for passengers. There will also be improved facilities including a new footbridge and lifts to all platforms (completion May 2014).
> A Network Rail spokesperson said: “Passengers and businesses are really seeing the benefits of sustained investment in the railway, with new and longer platforms, better stations and more capacity for extra passenger and freight services. The work carried out this Christmas and New Year period is part of our plan for a bigger, better railway and means the industry can cater for the continuing growth in demand for rail travel.”


Also the article's pictures. This one at Manchester Victoria:










Brighton Main Line:










And Peterborough station:










WELL DONE BRITTS!:banana::banana:


----------



## dimlys1994

Today:



> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25576100
> 
> *Thameslink train hits roof at London's Blackfriars Station*
> 2 January 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _An investigation has been launched after part of a train hit the roof of London's Blackfriars station._
> 
> It is not yet known how the carriage's pantograph - which connects the train to the overhead lines - came to hit the roof of the central London station.
> 
> The Thameslink train to Sevenoaks crashed at about 09.55 GMT. No-one was injured and the train has been removed.
> 
> Southeastern, which runs the service on First Capital Connect trains, said it was investigating the crash.
> 
> Passengers who were on the train, which had left St Albans at 08:58, were able to use their tickets on London Underground services to continue their journeys.
> 
> First Capital Connect said there were delays of up to 45 minutes on the line as a result of the crash.


----------



## Robi_damian

The Thamselink route operates trains between lines using overhead power (North of Farringdon) and electric 3rd rail (South of it), The driver must have forgotten to pull down the pantograph (or it malfunctioned), hence the crash.


----------



## Manchester77

The media are truly pathetic at reporting railway matters, we've got London papers blaming the driver really only the BBC have reported the facts. We don't know what happened so people jumping on the driver band wagon must know something everyone else doesn't know. OHLE extends from Bedford to City Thameslink where if the pantograph cannot be lowered the train can terminate. This was commissioned a few years ago to prevent the service being suspended to rescue a train that cannot switch over at farringdon. I should also point out that 'at stations like farringdon and Drayton park you need to be able to draw from both shoes and pan to leave the station as when you put the pan up the shoes are still on the 3rd rail. An alarm goes off in the cab to warn you however.' 'However, if it did not hit anything after leaving City Thameslink (Apothecary Junction) it should have lowered automatically by the time it reached Blackfriars (Automatic Dropping Device). If the pantograph only got damaged by Blackfriars roof then there had to be an ADD fault on the unit.' - some quotes about the stock off RailUK

To sum up our media I think this post hits the nail on the head:


jonmorris0844 said:


> You can be sure that whatever the truth, the anti-FCC brigade will be adding this to their list of reasons why FCC are crap and should be stripped of the franchise etc.
> 
> Metro has written: "The apparatus seems to have not been lowered at Farringdon station before it went straight into the ceiling at Blackfriar’s station on Thursday morning."
> Which is stupid. It's bloody obvious it wasn't lowered as you only need to look at the photo. How dumb to try and be vague on this, yet not mention anywhere that it's not clear if it was a train fault or driver error.
> All it means is that people will jump to one conclusion - driver error. Case closed...
> 
> Meanwhile London24 has gone with:
> "The First Capital Connect service blocked the southbound lane after the driver raised the pantograph and hit the ceiling."
> So definitely the driver at fault from their detailed investigation.
> 
> Only the BBC actually saw fit to write:
> "It is not yet known how the carriage's pantograph - which connects the train to the overhead lines - came to hit the roof of the central London station."
> Maybe the BBC should have asked Kate Nelson at London24! She obviously has the inside scoop.


So shall we wait for the RAIB to do their work before we go accusing people?


----------



## dimlys1994

^^I agree with that. Don't accuse someone, until you'll find the evidence


----------



## Svartmetall

Sure, 25kV AC is better overall, however, the OP said about how electrification could be managed on the route. If you cannot string wires at that point, then you'd have to third rail it if you wanted to electrify it. Duel voltage is an option, but as you say, problematic. I'd leave it as diesel as the loading gauge is clearly unsuitable for electrification and there probably isn't the traffic to demand it either, but if it were to be done, without destroying historical viaducts like those pictured, I can only think of third rail being an option. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Manchester77

Svartmetall said:


> Sure, 25kV AC is better overall, however, the OP said about how electrification could be managed on the route. If you cannot string wires at that point, then you'd have to third rail it if you wanted to electrify it. Duel voltage is an option, but as you say, problematic. I'd leave it as diesel as the loading gauge is clearly unsuitable for electrification and there probably isn't the traffic to demand it either, but if it were to be done, without destroying historical viaducts like those pictured, I can only think of third rail being an option.
> 
> Thoughts?


Looking at the Conway viaduct which is disguised as a castle it looks like there's sufficient headway for OHLE, it may be in the form of an electrified overhead rail as on Thameslink at St Pancras. The archway will probably see track singled just through the arch just as was done with the Kent 1066 electrification through the usually narrow tunnels. The North Wales councils want electrification and I'd guess it will be a CP7 task


----------



## dimlys1994

^^I totally agree that there is no problem for overhead electrification there. Here is the satellite map link to Conwy station - look at layout.

As for me, I don't like 3rd rail, because of its dangerous look - one fall and your hand is burnt


----------



## Svartmetall

Manchester77 said:


> Looking at the Conway viaduct which is disguised as a castle it looks like there's sufficient headway for OHLE, it may be in the form of an electrified overhead rail as on Thameslink at St Pancras. The archway will probably see track singled just through the arch just as was done with the Kent 1066 electrification through the usually narrow tunnels. The North Wales councils want electrification and I'd guess it will be a CP7 task


Okay, fair enough. I didn't think about the option of decreasing the tracks to single through the arch.



dimlys1994 said:


> ^^I totally agree that there is no problem for overhead electrification there. Here is the satellite map link to Conwy station - look at layout.
> 
> As for me, I don't like 3rd rail, because of its dangerous look - one fall and your hand is burnt


I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with third rail at all. It's a tried and tested technology and in use in many different parts of the world. Plenty of people die from exposure to overhead wires too, it's not something restricted just to third rail systems.


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...art-of-route-wide-safety-commitment-2060.aspx
> 
> *Footbridge to replace West Coast main line level crossing as part of route-wide safety commitment*
> Tuesday 15 Apr 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A footbridge is to replace a footpath level crossing on a busy section of the West Coast main line where trains travel in excess of 100mph.
> 
> Brock level crossing, near Bilsborrow in Lancashire, is the first of 200 crossings that Network Rail is aiming to close before April 2019 on the London North Western (LNW) route which runs from London Euston, through the West Midlands and north west of England, to the Scottish border.
> 
> The new bridge will provide a safe way to cross the railway and result in the permanent closure of the level crossing, reducing risk for the many people who use the existing route.
> 
> The new footbridge was formally opened by Councillor Bill Collinson and Jen Olivine of Myerscough and Bilsborrow Parish Council, on Wednesday 16 April.
> 
> Ian Joslin, area director for Network Rail, said: “This new footbridge is a positive first step as part of our commitment to close 200 level crossings across the route by 2019.
> 
> “The West Coast main line is one of the busiest railways in Europe and trains travel through this area at very high speeds. With safety being at the heart of everything we do as an industry, closing this level crossing is an obvious decision and the new bridge will provide a much safer route across the railway.
> 
> “We are in the process of identifying other level crossings to close and will continue to liaise with local authorities, landowners and interested parties up and down the route to continue to make the railway a safer place.”
> 
> Jen Olivine, chair of Myerscough and Bilsborrow Parish Council, said: “At long last there is a safe crossing over the railway in Bilsborrow for those walking the footpaths that lead up to Brock Bottoms, providing a gateway to the Forest of Bowland.
> 
> “Our thanks go to Network Rail and its contractors, Murphy, which have delivered beyond what we could have expected and with such care and consideration.”
> 
> Targeting the closure of 200 level crossings on LNW by April 2019 is part of Network Rail’s national programme to invest £100m over the next five years to close 500 level crossings and reduce they pose to the network by a further 25%. This will build on the £130m invested by Network Rail since 2010 which has helped to close almost 800 level crossings across Britain.


----------



## Manchester77

Svartmetall said:


> Okay, fair enough. I didn't think about the option of decreasing the tracks to single through the arch.
> 
> I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with third rail at all. It's a tried and tested technology and in use in many different parts of the world. Plenty of people die from exposure to overhead wires too, it's not something restricted just to third rail systems.


It's been used before as I said for the Kent Coast electrification where tunnels had been made thicker meaning clearance for two tracks was too tight for modern stock and so track runs in the centre of the tunnel. 

The main issue we have with third rail on the South London commuter network is that it is a lot less efficient than 25kV OHLE is. When the mark I derived EMUs were withdrawn at the turn of the century the power supply on the entire southern third rail network had to be completely upgraded for them to be used to their full capabilities. When the 395s were introduced onto the Kent classic lines many more substations had to be built so that the 395s could run. This is because it's at direct current which has to be roughly maintained all the time whereas AC it ranges more.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

^^Since that viaduct in Conwy is just a viaduct it wouldn't make much sense to single some 10 meters of tracks. Couldn't NR in such cases simply leave a gap in the overhead wires? I know that in my country up until some years ago there was such a place where the commuter EMUs had to lower their pantographs and travel on inertia (video).

Though I possibly remember a case when the driver forgot to lower the pantograph and destroyed it...


----------



## Manchester77

Were talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Conwy_railway_station_in_2008.jpg at Conway station not the bridge which looks like it could easily take wires as seen here: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7033/6716262567_ea0a38fa84_z.jpg


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

I know what we are talking about.

Sadly just like you I couldn't find a word to describe the object. So I used _"viaduct"_ which I saw used a few posts above. But if you prefer I will use _"this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...on_in_2008.jpg at Conway station"_ from now on


----------



## Sunfuns

Why just not call it a medieval defensive wall?


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

I will simply use a picture... I just want to say that this result would be stupid:


----------



## Manchester77

I was thinking more gauntlet track than full on single track. I also don't have confidence in a gap in the OHLE since it would be unique on the entire network and considering singling for electrification has been done before I don't see the issue here, surely the shorter the single tracked section the better anyway.


----------



## XAN_

That's just stupid.
Lowering track isn't cheap, but possible, it have been done so many times in Ukraine.
Also, places that should be passed with lowered pantograph as everyday operational practice aren't really common, but they do exist over the world, but that would require platform relocation, even if minor one.


----------



## Svartmetall

Manchester77 said:


> It's been used before as I said for the Kent Coast electrification where tunnels had been made thicker meaning clearance for two tracks was too tight for modern stock and so track runs in the centre of the tunnel.
> 
> The main issue we have with third rail on the South London commuter network is that it is a lot less efficient than 25kV OHLE is. When the mark I derived EMUs were withdrawn at the turn of the century the power supply on the entire southern third rail network had to be completely upgraded for them to be used to their full capabilities. When the 395s were introduced onto the Kent classic lines many more substations had to be built so that the 395s could run. This is because it's at direct current which has to be roughly maintained all the time whereas AC it ranges more.


I was replying to Dimlys and his statement regarding the safety of third rail. We know that DC current is less efficient for longer distances, hence why in many countries it is kept for metro systems only with a few exceptions (Japan being one notable one).


----------



## Jay

I really hope that picture is not real.


----------



## dimlys1994

This week, UK PM David Cameron and Chansellor George Osborne announced £36bn spending on infrastructure projects. Here is the list of rail projects, announced by Tresuary:

_Projects and programmes projected to start in 2014 - 15:_

Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme (Initial Phase Key Output 1) - Scotland
European Rail Traffic Management System Infrastructure - England
Gravesend - Gillingham 12 car - South East
New Ilkeston station - East Midlands
Midland Main Line Capacity (Kettering - Corby) - East Midlands
New Newcourt station - South West
New Norton Bridge on West Coast Rail Line- West Midlands
Chiltern Main Line Platform Lengthening - South East
New Pye Corner station - Wales
Rolling Programme of Electrification - Scotland
Tram Train Pilot - Yorkshire & the Humber
_Projects and programmes projected to complete in 2014 - 15:_

Balcombe to Copyhold Bi-directional Signalling Upgrade - South East
Capacity Relief to the East Coast Main Line (GN/GE Joint Line) - UK
Chiltern Main Line Platform Lengthening - South East
Gravesend Train Lengthening - South East
Guildford via Cobham upgrade - South East
Hampton Court Branch upgrade- South East
New Ilkeston station - East Midlands
Kingston Loop and Shepperton Branch upgrade- South East
Manchester Airport station renovation - North West
Newcastle Central station renovation - North East
New Newcourt station- South West
North Doncaster Chord - Yorkshire & the Humber
Phase 3A: North Wembley - Whitmore - South East
New Pye Corner station - Wales
Raynes Park to Dorking - South East
Redditch Branch Enhancement - West Midlands
Route 3 - Power Supply Enhancements - South East
Rutherglen and Coatbridge (R&C) Electrification - Scotland
Scottish Electrification - 2013 Advance Route Clearance Programme (Other Routes) - Scotland
Swindon - Kemble Duelling - South West


----------



## Fatfield

^^^^

Its just the ECML station at Newcastle Central that's being renovated.


----------



## Newcastle Historian

dimlys1994 said:


> This week, UK PM David Cameron and Chansellor George Osborne announced £36bn spending on infrastructure projects. Here is the list of rail project, ^^^^
> 
> Its just the ECML station at Newcastle Central that's being renovated.





Yes, as _Fatfield _says, it is not the Underground Metro Station at Central Station that is being renovated, it is the Main Line Station (Central Station itself) that is currently being renovated. See this thread here for details . .

[URL="http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1600715"]http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1600715

As part of NEXUS' plans for the 'Tyne and Wear Metro', Central Station Metro will be re-furbished (in the same style as 'Haymarket Metro') but not for some time yet.


----------



## dimlys1994

Newcastle Historian said:


> Yes, as _Fatfield _says, it is not the Underground Metro Station at Central Station that is being renovated, it is the Main Line Station (Central Station itself) that is currently being renovated


Ah, thanks!


----------



## dimlys1994

Update on new East West Rail Link between London Marylebone, Aylesbury, Oxford, Milton Keynes and Bedford - vegetation clearance of tracks between Aylesbury and Claydon Junction. Taken from here:


----------



## sotonsi

West Hampstead is unlikely - Chiltern and TfL have gone silent about it.

Electrification of the northern and southern thirds will be likely be part of Evergreen 4. The middle third is part of the Electric Spine.


----------



## Manchester77

M-NL said:


> For high(er) speed trains a floor height of 105cm to 115cm over the rails is common. A 10cm floor raise over the UK standard 91,5 cm would bring you almost into that range. A 10 cm difference should not cause problems, as long as you maintain enough headroom. Otherwise the limited width and height of the UK loading gauge will make it feel very cramped.


The body shell is remaining constant throughout the train, the floor height will rise 10cm over the engines in both the 800 and 801 varieties. This will mean a very awkward area of the coach at one end. Hopefully this end will just be the luggage racks etc however for a train which will cost 6 times more to lease than what currently is used (on InterCity East Coast) it's a bit of a pi*s take!


----------



## dimlys1994

Rochester station subway construction timelapse. The subway was built during four day blocade, between 18 and 21 April:


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2...idlands-railway-means-new-bridge-for-Walsall/
> 
> *Electrification of the West Midlands railway means new bridge for Walsall*
> 12 May 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We will start work to rebuild a bridge in Walsall town centre later this year as part of plans to electrify 15 miles of railway in the West Midlands.
> 
> The bridge over the railway, which is under Park Street in Walsall, is over 100 years old and needs rebuilding to allow overhead electricity lines to run underneath it to power trains from December 2017.
> 
> A total of 15 miles of railway between Walsall, Hednesford and Rugeley Trent Valley will be electrified to provide a cleaner, greener and more regular service for passengers using the Chase Line which links Walsall with Birmingham to the south and Cannock and Rugeley to the north.
> 
> _Preparatory work_
> 
> Preparatory work will get underway in autumn 2014 and finish by the end of November 2014.
> 
> _Rebuilding the bridge_
> 
> The process of rebuilding the bridge will begin in January 2015 and will be completed in four stages to allow Park Street to remain open for business. The project will complete in July 2015 and rail services will not be affected during the work.
> 
> Liam Sumpter, area director, Network Rail: “Electrification provides a greener, faster and more reliable railway, providing a better service to passengers. Replacing this bridge is a significant piece of work and is essential as part of our plans to electrify the railway between Walsall and Rugeley Trent Valley.
> 
> Its location makes the rebuilding even more of a challenge and we have worked closely with Walsall Council to carefully plan the programme so disruption is kept to a minimum.”
> 
> More about electrification is at networkrail.co.uk/electrification.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ew/cumbernauld-electrification-completed.html
> 
> *Cumbernauld electrification completed*
> 19 May 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Electrification between Springburn and Cumbernauld was undertaken by Carillion as part of a £80m upgrade of the route_
> 
> UK: Electric passenger services began operating between Glasgow and Cumbernauld on May 19, following commissioning of 50 km of 25 kV 50 Hz electrification between Springburn and Cumbernauld.
> 
> Electrification was undertaken by Carillion as part of a £80m upgrade of the route. Completion sees the number of services on the line increased from 36 each weekday with 5 500 seats to 59 services with 11 500 seats, with earlier and later trains now operating between Cumbernauld and Motherwell. There will also be additional stops at stations in Glasgow.
> 
> 'The launch of these electric services is a huge milestone for the Edinburgh – Glasgow Improvement Project and the Cumbernauld electrification has been delivered on time, on budget and well ahead of this summer’s Commonwealth Games as promised', said Scottish Transport Minister Keith Brown. He described EGIP as 'one of the biggest infrastructure investments by this government, and a central part of our ambition to ensure a railway which is fit for Scotland’s future. It will result in 30% more seats and around 20% faster journey times on our flagship route.'
> 
> David Dickson, Network Rail Route Managing Director for Scotland, said 'we are making good progress elsewhere in developing plans for the electrification of the main Edinburgh – Glasgow line and with the redevelopment of Glasgow Queen Street, and look forward to also delivering these projects as quickly and cost-effectively for the Scottish Government'


Attlee had nationalisation, Major had privatisation, now Cameron have electrification. All three meanings are about PMs and rail links


----------



## Manchester77

Think it would be good if we could add privatisation to Cameron too with his ability to sell of £15bn worth of NHS without it entering mainstream media! 

Today is the first working day of the new timetable with the 350/4s being fully deployed in Anglo - Manchester TPE services!


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...rthern-ireland-rail-strategy.html?channel=542
> 
> *New lines proposed in Northern Ireland rail plan*
> Tuesday, May 20, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PROPOSALS for the expansion and modernisation of Northern Ireland's railway network have been revealed in a new 20-year strategy which was launched by Mr Danny Kennedy, Northern Ireland Assembly minister for regional development, on May 19.
> 
> The Railway Investment Prioritisation Strategy states that the first priority for 2015-2035 should be to maintain and improve the passenger capacity of the existing network, which has seen passenger numbers surge from 6.7 million in the 2001-02 financial year to almost 13.2 million in 2013-14, but it also proposes investment in new lines.
> 
> Northern Ireland Railways (NIR) says that over the next 20 years it will need to complete track upgrading on the on Coleraine – Londonderry line and relay track on much of the remainder of the network.
> 
> In order to accommodate growth, NIR is considering the procurement of new trains, which would supplement the recently-acquired fleet of class 3000 and 4000 DMUs. Up to 60 vehicles could be procured at a cost of around £100m, enabling the operation of six-car trains. The report says that NIR is pushing for early implementation of its "New Trains 3" project, although the government says procurement may need to be phased due to budgetary constraints.
> 
> The 17-year-old fleet of diesel-hauled trains used on Belfast - Dublin Enterprise services is also undergoing refurbishment, although the report notes that NIR and Irish Rail (IE) will need to look at options for replacement in the next decade, which could include electrification.
> 
> Proposed infrastructure developments include construction of a third track on the Belfast – Lisburn line between Great Victoria Street and Adelaide, track-doubling on Dargan Bridge, and a third track between Lagan Junction and Belfast Central. Stations will be refurbished and new park-and-ride facilities will be built.
> 
> The report also looks at enhancements to reduce journey times and allow more frequent services between Belfast, Coleraine, and Londonderry. These could include track-doubling on the line between Bleach Green and Antrim or reopening of the Antrim – Knockmore/Lisburn line, which was mothballed in 2003.
> 
> The reopening of this line could be implemented in conjunction with a new rail link to Belfast International Airport. Other potential candidates for reopening identified in the report include Antrim – Castledawson and the lines to Armagh and Dungannon.
> 
> "It will be important in the present period of public expenditure restraint to use existing resources to sustain and make best use of the current system where there is greatest potential for growth," says Kennedy. "However, my ambition for rail goes much further and I am absolutely committed to seeking opportunities to further enhance or extend the network."
> 
> The report notes that any expansion of the network is likely to require an increase in funding. The Northern Ireland Executive currently allocates a railways a capital grant averaging around £44m per year, and if this level is maintained after 2015 it would equate to potential expenditure of £880m at 2014 prices between 2015 and 2035. However, it is estimate that £620m would be needed over this period to maintain existing infrastructure and rolling stock, limiting the resources available for expansion.
> 
> The full report can be viewed on the Northern Ireland Executive website


----------



## Arnorian

Historical Map: Austrian Edition of Airey’s Railway Map of London, 1876


----------



## dimlys1994

From Network Rail, a flythrough of Pontypridd station in Cardiff, which is now undergoing a renovation:


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## Manchester77

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-transport


> Three new state-of-the-art electric train fleets will mean more services and seats, faster journeys and better connections across many of the busiest rail routes in London and the south east after the government announced today (23 May 2014) its intention to award the new Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN) franchise to Govia Thameslink Railway Limited.
> The 7 year franchise – the largest ever let in terms of passenger numbers – will help deliver the government’s multi-billion pound investment in the region’s rail network, opening up new routes across London and improving services to scores of destinations, including:
> Brighton
> King’s Lynn
> Peterborough
> Cambridge
> Bedford
> Luton
> Gatwick Airports
> Moorgate
> Nearly 1,400 new electric carriages will be rolled out across the new franchise, providing 50% more capacity and 10,000 extra seats every weekday into central London during the morning peak by the end of 2018, and delivering quicker, cleaner and more reliable journeys for passengers and businesses.
> In addition, the new franchise will see millions invested in improving stations and staffing, a simplified ticketing structure and tough new targets for Govia to improve punctuality by reducing delays by around a fifth and improve cleanliness.
> Rail Minister Stephen Hammond said:
> A world class railway is a vital part of our long-term economic plan. New state-of-the-art trains, more seats, better connections and improved stations will transform travel across London and the south east. That’s great news for businesses and the hundreds of thousands of passengers who use these vital services every day.
> The TSGN franchise will play a crucial role in delivering the government’s £6.5 billion Thameslink programme – a major programme of infrastructure work that is helping create 8,000 jobs and will allow 24 trains per hour to travel in each direction from Blackfriars to St Pancras. New tunnels will link Peterborough and Cambridge to the existing Thameslink route providing easy access across London via St Pancras to Gatwick and Brighton.
> The franchise will introduce 1,140 new carriages – already under construction - on the Thameslink network, improving services to scores of destinations, including the introduction of new cross capital services and a connection at Farringdon to London’s newest railway - Crossrail.
> In addition, Govia will order a new fleet of 108 carriages for the Gatwick Express service, replacing the current 25-year-old trains with a fleet better suited to the needs of airport passengers. It will also secure 150 new carriages to replace the 40-year-old trains currently operating on the route between Moorgate, north London and Hertfordshire.
> That means the total number of carriages in service will grow to 2,631 by 2019 – an increase of 27%. It will also release some existing electric carriages to be used elsewhere in the country.
> Govia will invest significantly in improving stations, including free wi-fi at more than 100 stations, better retail and catering facilities and improvements to customer information systems. Staffing hours will also be extended so that at more than 100 of the largest stations there will be staff available from the first train in the morning to the last train at night.
> Demanding contractual obligations on the operator will deliver cleaner and more spacious trains and improve passenger satisfaction. Tough new benchmarks for performance, train and station cleanliness and customer service information have also been agreed.
> The operator will also develop website, smartphone and tablet apps that will make door-to-door travel easier for customers, including planning journeys, buying tickets and booking onward taxis.
> The TSGN franchise will replace the existing Thameslink and Great Northern franchise (operated as First Capital Connect) from 14 September 2014 and will include the South Central franchise (operated as Southern and Gatwick Express) when it expires on 26 July 2015. A small number of services and stations will also transfer from the South Eastern franchise by 21 December 2014. The current franchises provide around 273 million passenger journeys annually.
> Following the announcement, and in accordance with usual procurement practice, there will be a standstill period of 10 days before the department will be a position to enter into, and complete, the formal contractual documentation and make the award to the successful tenderer.


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## dimlys1994

When will be next train franchise tender? And by the way, it's very interesting news


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## Sopomon

Hurrah! FCC is gone forever!


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## dimlys1994

Govia, in fact, previously operated this route between 1997 and 2006


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## Manchester77

dimlys1994 said:


> When will be next train franchise tender? And by the way, it's very interesting news


Going up to the general election we should have Essex Thameside being awarded soon, Southern merging with TSGN (although now it's southern branding remaining and management transferring to GoVia TSGN) and ICEC.


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## IanCleverly

dimlys1994 said:


> From Network Rail, a flythrough of Pontypridd station in Cardiff, which is now undergoing a renovation:


<pedant mode> Pontypridd is *near* Cardiff, not in Cardiff. <end pedant/>

As someone who lives close to Pontypridd, I can assure you, the locals would hate to be called Cardiff-ians


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## ramakrishna1984

The UK Department for Transport (DfT) has selected Govia Thameslink for the *new Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN) rail franchising deal*. Govia is 65%-owned by Go-Ahead and 35%-owned by French firm Keolis. It already runs Southern Railways, London Midland and South Eastern train services.


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## dimlys1994

ramakrishna1984 said:


> The UK Department for Transport (DfT) has selected Govia Thameslink for the *new Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN) rail franchising deal*. Govia is 65%-owned by Go-Ahead and 35%-owned by French firm Keolis. It already runs Southern Railways, London Midland and South Eastern train services.


^^It's already published, look above. Next time, when you publish news, look carefully through the thread. Anyway, another franchise is awarded:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ins-15-year-caledonian-sleeper-franchise.html
> 
> *Serco wins 15-year Caledonian Sleeper franchise*
> 28 May 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Serco has won a 15-year franchise to operate the Caledonian Sleeper service between London and various Scottish destinations from April 2015, replacing incumbent First Group.
> 
> At present, two trains operate in each directions on six nights per week; a ‘lowland’ service connecting London Euston with Edinburgh and Glasgow Central, and a ‘highland’ service linking London Euston with Inverness, Aberdeen and Fort William. The trains are currently operated as part of FirstGroup’s ScotRail franchise, and represent 2% of franchise revenue.
> 
> Transport Scotland has selected Serco to operate ‘all aspects’ of the service and oversee a £100m investment in new rolling stock and other enhancements. Leased through Beacon Rail, a fleet of 72 locomotive-hauled coaches is to be supplied as four trainsets by CAF for introduction from ‘summer 2018’. The fleet renewal programme is being underpinned by a £60m capital grant from the Scottish government. The vehicles will include en-suite berths in a premium business class, reclining seats that can be repositioned as flat beds, and a ‘brasserie-style Club Car’.
> 
> Serco also says that it will introduce a broad partnership with Scottish suppliers to offer an ‘outstanding hospitality service that is emblematic of the best of Scotland’; hotel and catering company Inverlochy Castle Management International has already agreed to support the operation. Serco expects to introduce an updated sales and reservation platform to offer a ‘broader range of fares’ to drive growth in passenger numbers, both among UK residents and international tourists.
> 
> The franchise would deliver revenues of up to £800m over the 15 years, Serco says, of which ‘approximately £180m will be in the form of franchise payments’. A ‘gain share’ agreement has been reached with Transport Scotland ‘to incentivise performance improvements’.
> 
> Chief Executive Rupert Soames commented that Serco had ‘a strong track record of providing high-quality and efficient rail services around the world, as well as experience in managing large-scale tourism-focused transport services’. Its Australian business Great Southern Rail operates the premium long-distance Ghan, Indian Pacific and Overland services linking Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Darwin and Perth.


Another First Group franchise is gone


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## TedStriker

^^

Please release me from my ignorance - the new sleeper fleet will number 72 vehicles, 16 vehicles per formation. 

How does this compare to the current Mark III and Mark II fleet?


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/05/29/green-light-for-new-stations-on-bradford-leeds-line/
> 
> *Green light for new stations on Bradford-Leeds line*
> 29th May 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Kirkstall Forge station_
> 
> _The Government has released funding to allow two new stations to be built on the Bradford to Leeds railway line_
> 
> The Department for Transport will fund up to £9.5m of the £16m Leeds Rail Growth scheme.
> 
> One of the new stations will support the £400m development of the Kirkstall Forge site in Leeds.
> 
> Developer Commercial Estates Group plans to build around 1,000 houses, offices, leisure facilities on 56 acres of brownfield land close to the historic Old Forge site.
> 
> The development is expected to support 300 jobs during construction.
> 
> The funding announcement grants full approval to the scheme which is promoted by the West Yorkshire Combined Authority, allowing work to begin.
> 
> The main works are scheduled to start in July with completion of the scheme in August 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _New station at Apperley Bridge station_
> 
> The Apperley Bridge Station will include a park and ride site to serve Bradford.
> 
> Transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin said: “These stations represent a major regeneration project for West Yorkshire and provide new transport links for the wider community.
> 
> “They will unlock growth and help create many hundreds of new jobs


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/05/30/essex-thameside-franchise-decision-delayed/
> 
> *Essex Thameside franchise decision delayed*
> 30 MAY, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Photo by National Express_
> 
> Following hard on the award of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN) franchise to Govia Thameslink Railway last week, the Department for Transport has announced a short delay on the next one.
> 
> The Essex Thameside franchise, which is basically the old London, Tilbury and Southend route from Fenchurch Street, was expected to have been awarded in May. That decision has now gone back two months to July, with a corresponding delay in the commencement of operations from September to November 2014.
> 
> As a result, the existing franchise with C2C has been extended by two months.
> 
> The extra time is to further examine the bids from four separate potential operators – Abellio, First, MTR and National Express. A spokesman said that the delay was particular to this franchise agreement and would not impact on any other route currently being evaluated.
> 
> Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McLoughlin stated that the Essex Thameside franchise was an important part of the Government’s economic plan.
> 
> “I am determined that the next phase of this franchise will build on that success. By extending this contract, we are making sure that the best decision is made so that we can secure the best possible service for passengers in the future,” he added


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## dimlys1994

Videos of Borders Railway construction in Scotland. Project map:










95105709

95105710

95105711

95105712

95108052

95108054


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## dimlys1994

^^

95108055

95108056

95113759

95113760

95113761

95113762


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## dimlys1994

^^

95115130

95115133

95115134

95115135


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## dimlys1994

^^What I didn't understand - is that reopening section would be mostly single-tracked?


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## Manchester77

dimlys1994 said:


> ^^What I didn't understand - is that reopening section would be mostly single-tracked?


There will be some sections of double track however for the project to have a strong business case it was decided it would be mainly single track. The line will have 2tph into Edinburgh during the peak hours. It's more cost effective to have single tracks in place if traffic won't be high. If the line was being served by a higher frequency more double track sections would be built.


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## k.k.jetcar

TV report about the interior layout of the Intercity Express Programme trainsets (BR Class 800):

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/up...of-the-future-unveiled-for-the-thames-valley/


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## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.railstaff.co.uk/2014/05/30/network-manages-stations/
> 
> *Network Rail manages more stations*
> 30 May 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newcastle and York are to become Network Rail-managed stations from the start of the new East Coast franchise in 2015.
> 
> The main line stations will join Reading and Bristol Temple Meads, which Network Rail took over on April 1, under a new management model designed to improve long-term planning for the UK’s railway stations.
> 
> Network Rail will assume control of asset management and commercial activities for both stations from the start of the new franchise, leaving the new operator to focus on passenger-facing services.
> 
> The idea is that the ‘managed station – lite’ model, as it has been dubbed, will make it easier to develop long-term strategies. Network Rail will be solely in charge of maintenance and renewal works around the stations.
> 
> Like Reading and Bristol, Newcastle has received substantial investment for modernisation works and York presents further opportunities for commercial development.
> 
> ‘Where we’re in the lead role, we can do more in terms of customer enhancements,’ says Jason Manley, stations specialist for Network Rail’s Network Operations. ‘Bristol Temple Meads has got a big master plan for it, so we can look long term, and we can take a better strategic view.
> 
> ‘A lot of train operators are frustrated because they can’t make some long-term decisions, and they can’t always build up the business case to always do things within the term of the franchise.’


----------



## Manchester77

*OJEU released for the Northern and TPE franchises *
_ The ball is now rolling for the two main franchises in the north_
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/318074/tpe-northern-ojeu-notice.pdf
- The TPE franchise will be 8/9 years long.
- Northern will be 8 to 10 years long.
- Both contracts extendable by 1 year.
- The start date for both is February 2016.
- The short list of bidders to receive the ITT will be published in August/September 2014.


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## IanCleverly

Deleted - will post in the Lankyshire thread in the Urban transport section


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## Manchester77

* Northern and TPE prospectuses *
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/318230/tpe-prospectus.pdf - TPE
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ment_data/file/318233/northern-prospectus.pdf - Northern


> make best use of the significant capacity improvements planned for the network to tackle crowding and meet future passenger demand
> provide faster and more frequent services to scores of destinations across the region
> improve rolling stock, including proposals to replace Pacer trains across the Northern franchise
> deliver a more efficient network that meets customer needs and drives forward the economy
> improve customer services and passenger satisfaction





> Transfer from TPE to Northern:
>  Manchester Airport to Blackpool North
>  Services to Windermere
>  Barrow-in-Furness to Lancaster/Manchester Airport
>  York to Scarborough
>  Doncaster to Cleethorpes
> Transfer from Northern to TPE:
>  One train per hour Doncaster to Hull (one train per hour to
> remain with Northern)
> Transfer from EMT to TPE:
>  the Nottingham – Liverpool portion of the existing EMT
> Norwich –Liverpool service
> Transfer from Northern to EMT:
>  Cleethorpes to Barton-on-Humber (if Doncaster -
> Cleethorpes remains with TPE)
> These franchise remapping proposals may result in a number
> of stations being operated by a different franchisee.


DOO on northern being proposed though:


> • All Northern trains are currently operated by a driver and guard. A significant
> task for the new operator should be to define and introduce a policy whereby
> the driver has full responsibility for the safety of the train – already the case
> on 30% of train services in Great Britain including many recently electrified
> routes. Making such changes, where applicable, could enhance efficiency
> and improve service to passengers by allowing other on-train staff to be
> focussed on passenger needs and revenue protection


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-rights-to-new-wcml-operator.html?channel=542
> 
> *Network Rail grants access rights to new WCML operator*
> Friday, June 13, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BRITAIN's infrastructure manager, Network Rail (NR), has for the first time granted access rights to an open-access passenger operator without being forced to provide paths by the Office for Rail Regulation (ORR).
> 
> Great North Western Railway (GNWR), a subsidiary of Arriva UK Trains, has been granted 12 paths per day per direction on the West Coast Main Line to introduce services from London Euston to Blackpool and Huddersfield via Manchester Victoria in competition with Virgin Trains, which up to now has a monopoly on the London – northwest England corridor.
> 
> Consultation is now underway with other operators and interested parties. This is expected to be completed in early July and the application will then go to ORR for final approval.
> 
> If ORR approves the open-access deal, GNWR plans to acquire eight six-car Pendolino trains from Alstom and start recruiting more than 200 staff.
> 
> GNWR wants to launch a London – Blackpool service of six round trips a day in early 2017, followed by six round trips a day between London, Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield and Leeds in 2018. These dates tie in with electrification work currently underway in northwest England.
> 
> GNWR made its initial application to introduce services on four routes from London in December 2011. It says, it will continue to engage with NR to obtain paths for its planned services to the Cumbrian coast and Bradford


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## dimlys1994

Future GNWR route map:


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## Sopomon

Is there any news on the GNER proposal?


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## Manchester77

Network Rail may have but it's ultimately down to the ORR, they have to consider that the next ICWC could operate the Blackpool services and so GNWR would abstract revenue from ICWC. The routes abstract revenue from London Midland, ICWC and Northern so I'd guess at the very least for this to go ahead the ORR would require stopping patterns changed.


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...co-operation-memorandum-of-understanding.html
> 
> *UK and China sign railway co-operation memorandum of understanding*
> 17 Jun 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The UK and Chinese governments signed a bilateral agreement for their rail industries to work together 'to boost economic growth, jobs and skills' during an official visit to Britain by China's Premier Li Keqiang on June 17.
> 
> The Department for Transport said the agreement would pave the way for closer co-operation in areas such as:
> 
> new-build and upgrading infrastructure projects;
> the supply of products and services to third markets;
> research and development collaboration;
> station design;
> equipment supply;
> safety and evaluation;
> energy saving and environmental protection.
> 'I can see great mutual benefit to be gained from increased co-operation between the UK and China on rail', said Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. 'The railways are a massive success story in both countries and we can boast world class expertise across the sector.'
> 
> DfT said the UK 'is open to international investment and welcomes suitable qualified companies from other countries, including China, to bid for projects in accordance with international and domestic procurement practices and laws'. The agreement states that contracts won in the UK 'should utilise and build upon the UK supply chain'. The UK also expects to see greater emphasis on access to the Chinese market for UK companies.
> 
> 'The success stories of the future will be economies that invest in infrastructure and welcome overseas involvement and we want this partnership to be a win-win situation creating economic growth and jobs here and abroad, including in China', said McLoughlin.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/virgin-awarded-west-coast-extension.html
> 
> *Virgin signs West Coast direct award contract*
> 19 Jun 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The Department for Transport announced on June 19 that it had agreed terms with Virgin Rail Group for a direct award contract to operate InterCity West Coast services for a further 2 years and 9 months. Virgin is currently running the business under a stopgap agreement signed in December 2012.
> 
> The new contract is the sixth direct award to be negotiated by DfT following the relaunch of its franchising schedule in March 2013. Virgin will continue to operate service on the West Coast Main Line until April 2017, when a competitively-tendered long-term franchise is expected to start.
> 
> Under the deal, Virgin has committed to pay more than £430m in premia to run the franchise. It will also deliver £35m of ‘passenger benefits’, including the conversion of one first class coach to standard class on the 21 nine-car Class 390 Pendolino trainsets and the introduction of free wi-fi at stations. More than £20m will be invested in station enhancements, with extra car parking to be provided at Carlisle, Lancaster and Stafford. Another £2·5m will fund interior improvements on the Pendolino fleet, and £2·7m is allocated for improved catering facilities.
> 
> In addition, Virgin ‘will now start work to secure new direct services from London to both Shrewsbury and Blackpool from December’, subject to negotiating suitable paths with Network Rail and the Office of Rail Regulation. Shrewsbury would have two trains in each direction on Monday to Saturday and one on Sunday. Blackpool North would see one train each way Monday to Friday.
> 
> ‘The West Coast provides a vital artery between London and Scotland, and it is crucial we do everything we can to improve services on this much-used route’, said Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. ‘This deal will provide thousands more seats and better journeys for the tens of thousands of passengers who use these services every day.’
> 
> Virgin has committed to working with Network Rail and local communities and stakeholders to look at ways to improve journey times between London and Scotland, including a proposed remodelling of the junction at Carstairs.
> 
> Virgin Trains Executive Co-Chairman Patrick McCall said ‘we are delighted to have reached a deal, after some tough negotiations with the DfT. It puts the problems of 2012 firmly behind us, and shows the clear benefits of a well-run franchise system. This deal is great news for passengers and taxpayers, with significant benefits for our customers, as well as a big increase in the money we pay to government.’
> 
> _The Department for Transport announced on June 19 that it had transferred the 40% stake in Eurostar which it holds through London & Continental Railways to the Treasury. A joint venture of Keolis (UK) Ltd and Eurostar International Ltd has been shortlisted for the InterCity East Coast franchise, and DfT said the transfer has been done 'to address any perceived or actual conflict of interests resulting from the interaction between the government's stake in Eurostar' and the franchise competition, 'and in particular any perception of bias arising out of the Secretary of State for Transport's shareholding in London & Continental Railways'. _


----------



## Manchester77

*319361 has arrived at Allerton TMD*
The first 319/3 has transferred up north. The EMU will enter service in December on electric services between Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street. Northern are due to receive 14 319/3s which upon completion of Manchester - Liverpool electrification will operate services via Chat Moss. Here is 319361 hauled by a 57 en route to Allerton today.

57306, 319361 by British Rail 1980s and 1990s, on Flickr


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## Sopomon

^^ 
What's replcaing them in the meantime between the introduction of the 700s? All I can see is one less train on an already miserable commuter line?


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## Manchester77

The initial 319s are being replaced by 6 377/2s cascaded from southern (which will be replaced by 377/7s). The next cascades will be when the 387s enter service which should displace a large proportion of the 319 fleet. The 387s and 377s will then be replaced off Thameslink by 700s from 2016


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## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/06/25/bid-race-for-20m-dundee-railway-station-and-hotel/
> 
> *Bid race for £20m Dundee railway station and hotel*
> Wed 25th June 2014, 13:04
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Dundee City Council is on the hunt for a builder to deliver its planned landmark railway station and hotel building_
> 
> The combined station and hotel building will form a central part of the £1bn regeneration of the waterfront.
> 
> Sleeperz Hotels, the UK budget hotel company, has signed up for the scheme, which already has planning.
> 
> The work programme includes retaining the original Victorian platform which will be fronted by a curving six storeys building containing a triple height arch as a nod to grand Victorian station design.
> 
> The £20m building project is timetabled to start construction next April and be completed two years later.
> 
> Firms have until 13 August to complete the PQQ, which can be obtained from the Public Contracts Scotland website.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...national-express-retains-essex-thameside.html
> 
> *New trains and ticketing as National Express retains Essex Thameside*
> 27 Jun 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The Department for Transport announced that incumbent National Express had been selected as preferred bidder for the next Essex Thameside franchise on June 27.
> 
> The franchise covers a largely self-contained network of commuter services into London Fenchurch Street station from Tilbury, Southend and Shoeburyness.
> 
> The contract will run for 15 years from November 9 2014 until 2029, with National Express to pay DfT around £1·5bn, with a net present value of £1·1bn.
> 
> Under the new franchise, National Express has undertaken to:
> 
> Tender for 17 new four-car trainsets to enter service from 2019;
> Refurbish the existing fleet of Bombardier Electrostar EMUs;
> Provide free wi-fi on stations and trains;
> Introduce a new timetable from December 2015, providing 20% more weekday and 21% more weekend services and 38% more capacity into London during the morning peak, with a quarter of weekend trains to serve Stratford and London Liverpool Street;
> Enter into a new performance commitment requiring 90% of trains to reach their destination within 1 min of the timetable by December 2018, with registered smart card users receiving automatic compensation for delays over 2 min;
> Form an alliance with infrastructure manager Network Rail to 'reduce running costs and deliver right-time operational performance';
> Introduce new ticketing products, including smart cards with planned integration with bus services, contactless payment from 2017, flexible season tickets, carnets, discounted advance, senior and local student fares;
> Undertake a £33m station investment programme, with all 26 to be fully accessible and staffed during operating hours.
> Over the last 14 years ridership on the franchise operated by National Expresses under the c2c brand has increased by 42% to 37 million passenger-journeys/year, the majority being peak commuter travel to and from central London.
> 
> 'National Express is very proud of our record on c2c, transforming it from the "Misery Line" into consistently the best performing railway in the country', said National Express CEO Dean Finch. 'We have identified where to invest to enable c2c to be truly tailored to meet customers' needs and to pioneer new levels of service not seen in UK rail. We believe our ambitious plans will transform the franchise again. Today's announcement is good news for passengers, taxpayers and shareholders alike.'


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/06/27/transport-secretary-opens-doncaster-north-chord/
> 
> *Transport Secretary opens Doncaster North Chord*
> 27 JUN, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Doncaster North Chord Freightliner_
> 
> Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin has officially opened the £45 million Doncaster North Chord during a tour of major projects along the East Coast main line.
> 
> The flyover, which actually opened to traffic at the start of the month, will relieve a “pinch point” along the route, increasing capacity and cutting freight journeys between the Humber ports and the Aire Valley power stations.
> 
> McLoughlin said: “The North Doncaster Chord will help in freeing up space for much-needed additional passenger services between Yorkshire and London and reduce delays, while also improving the vital freight network across the region.”
> 
> Philippa Edmunds, Freight on Rail manager added: “Rail freight services industry safely and sustainably so it is crucial that the Government continues to invest in rail freight access to the network; each coal train to the power stations can remove around 75 HGVs from our roads.”
> 
> Freightliner Heavy Haul Limited became the first rail freight operator to utilise the new Doncaster North Chord for commercial service when it opened for use on Sunday, June 1.
> 
> Martin Wilks, director of coal services for Freightliner Heavy Haul, said: “We welcome the opening of the Doncaster North Chord as an important new addition to Network Rail’s infrastructure.
> 
> “This is an important project which gives freight trains a clear run towards the power stations, without incurring the performance risk of crossing the busy East Coast main line, and will improve the service we can offer to our customers.”


----------



## kyah117

You really don't understand the rules ?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/announcement.php?f=812&a=802


----------



## dimlys1994

kyah117 said:


> You really don't understand the rules ?
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/announcement.php?f=812&a=802


What's wrong?


----------



## Manchester77

kyah117 said:


> You really don't understand the rules ?
> 
> http://www.skyscrapercity.com/announcement.php?f=812&a=802


The 100 word maximum quote thing isn't exactly strictly enforced and what harm does it do, when I'm my mobile it's far easier to remain on SCC and read the article on here. You'd certainly hate the metrolink threads where whole newspaper articles are quoted! Surely it's good to have someone who searches the different rail news sites and posts relevant articles which people would have otherwise missed. I guess you're just one of those people who gets very bothered by little things on life like this.


----------



## kyah117

It's fordibben by many country to simply copy and paste the article.

But if the rules are not made to be respected, okay, continue.

(Also, it's boring me because I'm reading this article every day and that's also the only thing to read here every day so the forum is losing all of his interest).


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Ok, so what do you suggest? This?

* Let's start a fun and interesting discussion about the need for modern railways in the United Kingdom! * :banana:


----------



## Manchester77

kyah117 said:


> It's fordibben by many country to simply copy and paste the article.
> 
> But if the rules are not made to be respected, okay, continue.
> 
> (Also, it's boring me because I'm reading this article every day and that's also the only thing to read here every day so the forum is losing all of his interest).


Block the user or unsubscribe from the thread then


----------



## dimlys1994

Manchester77 said:


> Block the user or unsubscribe from the thread then


I don't want to be blocked, really


----------



## TedStriker

I personally don't see that there's a massive problem with pasting blurb from websites like Global Rail News, so long as the website is clearly linked and the source of the story is clearly labelled. 

These kinds of websites provide this content free-of-charge after all. It would different is the words were from paywall-based side such as The Times.


----------



## redstarcastles

*Manchester Pictures*

Pictures taken on the 21st and 22nd of June. Weather was warm so apologies for hazy shots. Views show a typical evening in Piccadilly.


156 423 Altrincham 22 June 2014


323 236 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


158 785 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


350 406 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


156 483 leaves Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


185 135 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


175 113 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


170 301 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


142 015 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014


185 101 Manchester Piccadilly 22 June 2014 

More here: http://smu.gs/V9vDsQ


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

On which routes do those FTPE 350s operate?


----------



## Manchester77

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> On which routes do those FTPE 350s operate?


Manchester Airport to Glasgow / Edinburgh services excluding one 185 diagram from Friday to Monday.


----------



## IanCleverly

Western Daily Press said:


> A hard-to-reach area in the South West is to get a £146 million rail improvement package, Prime Minister David Cameron has announced. The cash injection, for Cornwall, is designed to lift the local economy, create new jobs and provide faster train journeys.
> 
> The deal means:
> 
> 
> The interior of the Night Riviera Sleeper trains, which run between Penzance and London – one of only two sleeper services in the UK – will be completely overhauled
> The Long Rock train maintenance site at Penzance will be expanded to maintain Cornwall’s sleeper trains, safeguarding jobs and creating new training opportunities;
> A major programme of signalling improvements will start five years earlier than planned, providing faster journeys between Penzance and Totnes and paving the way for the potential introduction of half-hourly services on the Cornish mainline.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> The package includes £9 million of funding from the Department for Transport (DfT), £29.6 million secured through Cornwall Council and the Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP), £103.5 million from Network Rail and £4.5 million from train operator First Great Western (FGW).



Taken from the Western Daily Press newspaper with the image taken from the Department for Transport Twitter account Here


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ That's great news to see such a large railway package for such an isolated region.


----------



## Manchester77

*Labour could be planning to allow the public sector to bid for franchises *
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/03/rail-network-franchises-labour-plan


> Labour is to raise the prospect of further parts of the rail network being taken back into public ownership when it announces plans to subject franchises to a competitive bid between the state and private sector as they come up for renewal.
> 
> But Ed Miliband will anger rail unions and some Labour MPs in the announcement next week by ruling out proposals that all expired franchises under a Labour government be returned automatically to the public sector – which would amount to a form of staggered renationalisation.
> 
> Senior shadow cabinet figures have agreed that a pragmatic choice between the state and private sector based on price, reliability and quality of service will provide a solution that allays commuter frustration, provides a fair deal for the taxpayer and does not amount to a return to British Rail.
> 
> Labour has been briefing industry sources that the announcement will be made next week, although the party said this was "pure speculation".
> 
> The rail industry insisted any bids for franchises already under way must not be thrown up in the air by allowing the state sector to belatedly join the bidding process.
> 
> It also claimed that any bidding competition between state and private train companies ran the risk of destabilising the industry if the government was in effect the jury and the beneficiary of a decision to return a franchise to the state sector.
> 
> It is estimated that it costs a little over £5m on average to bid for a franchise, so any public bidder would have to be prepared to raise, and potentially lose, that kind of cash. With at least seven franchises up in the next parliament, that amounts to £35m.
> 
> It is also argued that if the state-owned company won the franchise, an extra risk would be imported on to the public sector balance sheet, as with national rail investment.
> 
> Franchises due to expire after the 2015 general election include Southern, London Midland, Wales and Borders, TransPennine Express, East Midlands and CrossCountry. Under the Labour proposal, successfully run private franchises would be allowed to bid again.
> 
> The rail unions have been pointing to opinion polls showing strong support for phased renationalisation, including in marginal seats with large numbers of commuters. They point to the success of the state-run East Coast Trains, although there is a dispute about whether the line has been more efficient than other franchises or is simply at a point in its cycle where less stock investment is needed, so reducing costs.
> 
> Ed Balls, the shadow chancellor, expressed his support at the weekend for competitive bidding for franchises, saying: "I think actually the franchising process of the last years has delivered more passenger numbers. There's been big public investment as well." He said he thought East Coast had been doing a really good job as a public operator.
> 
> He added: "I think it's a good thing for us to say in the bidding process we're happy for private and East Coast to bid into that process on a level playing field. I'm not going to take an ideological approach. I don't want to go back to the nationalisation of the 70s.
> 
> "I think many people would say that some of these franchises have operated in a pretty unfair way to consumers and in the East Coast it failed. So let's get to a level playing field, not be ideological."
> 
> The Labour decision, relayed to key players in the industry, comes at the end of a week in which Miliband has tried to reassure business through detailed announcements that his attack on failing markets should not be mistaken for an attack on the private sector.
> 
> A group of prospective Labour MPs including some in marginal seats wrote an open letter to the Observer two months ago calling for an extension of the system of national ownership that has operated successfully on the East Coast mainline since 2009, when the franchise run by National Express failed.
> 
> "A commitment to extend this successful model to the rest of the rail network, as existing contracts come to an end, would mean that hundreds of millions currently lost in private profit would be available to fully fund a bold offer on rail fares," they said.
> 
> The Rail Delivery Group, the organisation that brings together the train operating companies and Network Rail, claims the network now generates £9bn, enough to cover its day-to-day operating costs. Government support of £4bn goes to Network Rail – which owns and operates the rail infrastructure – to improve the rail network.
> 
> The RDG argues that the amount of money returning to the government from passenger operations has risen by £1.56bn since 1997-98, showing franchising is effective in capturing value for the taxpayer.
> 
> It also claims that profit margins have fallen owing to a combination of competitive bidding and the prolonged impact of the recession. It says government funding per journey is £2.35, 29% lower than in the first full year of privatisation, and the same as or lower than in seven of the last 12 years of British Rail.


----------



## SteveAWOL

IanCleverly said:


> ...
> 
> Taken from the Western Daily Press newspaper with the image taken from the Department for Transport Twitter account Here


The overhauled sleeper trains should be quite swish if this promo video is anything to go by. 

https://twitter.com/FGW/status/484634130517618688


----------



## TedStriker

Approval for Daventry rail freight expansion

"An 8 million sq ft extension of Daventry International Rail Freight Terminal (Dirft) has been given the green light by the Secretary of State.

Dirft III will have a capacity for up to 32 freight trains in and out of the site each day, handling more than 500,000 containers a year."

See the link for more detail.

From Global Rail News, 7th July, 2014.


----------



## Fatfield

Two fatalities at a level crossing near Lincoln today.

http://news.sky.com/story/1297963/two-killed-by-freight-train-at-level-crossing


----------



## IanCleverly

Gloucestershire Echo said:


> The doubling of the Kemble to Swindon line will go live this September promising fewer delays and more trains.
> 
> Network Rail representatives told a Shire Hall committee the new dual line will go live once the finishing touches on the £40 million plus scheme are completed in August. The project to upgrade the railway route and infrastructure between Swindon and Gloucester via Kemble and Stroud started in January 2013.
> 
> Once finished it will allow up to four trains every hour in each direction.
> 
> Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Conservative MP for the Cotswolds, said: “I have campaigned for the redoubling of the Swindon-Kemble line for many years and I am naturally incredibly pleased that this work should be completed soon. I was pleased to have successfully convinced the Chancellor of the Exchequer to invest £40 million in this line and since then I have been pressing hard to ensure that when the line is completed First Great Western operate an enhanced number of trains to increase the regularity of trains".
> 
> The line between Swindon and Kemble was double track up until the late 1960s when a decline in passenger demand prompted British Rail, with the agreement of the Government, to single the route.


Full story Here

and another:-



Motherwell Times said:


> Dozens of commuters feared being stranded in Lockerbie after the train they were travelling on failed to stop at Motherwell station as scheduled on Monday evening.
> 
> More than 50 passengers on the First TransPennine Express service, heading to Manchester Airport, managed to get off at Carluke after the train made an unscheduled stop in the town.
> 
> One passenger told the Times: “The first stop after it leaves Glasgow is Motherwell, then Lockerbie, then to Manchester Airport. There was [sic] over 50 people who had to get off at Carluke and get the train back. We were lucky though, as the driver had to request special permission to stop at Carluke to let us off. Otherwise the next stop was Lockerbie".
> 
> A First TransPennine Express spokesman said: “I can confirm that our 17.06 Glasgow to Manchester Airport service failed to stop at Motherwell. This was as a result of driver error and we are re-confirming on board procedures to avoid similar situations in the future. The train however was given permission to stop at Carluke where passengers were able to make a connection back to Motherwell.
> 
> “We would like to offer our apologies for any inconvenience caused to affected customers".


Taken from Motherwell Times


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/08/14/open-access-operator-handed-10-year-contract-extension/
> 
> *Open access operator handed 10-year contract extension*
> 14 AUG, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arriva-owned Grand Central Rail has been given a 10-year extension.
> 
> The open access operator will continue to operate King’s Cross-Sunderland and King’s Cross-Bradford services until 2026.
> 
> Richard McClean, managing director of Grand Central, said: “As an open access operator, the 10-year extension to our rail access is excellent news for our passengers and employees and highly significant for the wider rail industry.
> 
> “Not only does this mean we can continue to operate services connecting Sunderland and Bradford to London King’s Cross, but we are also in a position to proceed with significant investments to improve our services and encourage future economic growth.
> 
> “For many of the towns on our routes we operate the only direct service to London, so this extension is a big coup for those communities and local businesses as well, who can continue to make connections to the capital.”


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-express-franchise-shortlisted-announced.html
> 
> *Northern and TransPennine Express franchise shortlisted announced*
> 19 Aug 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: On August 19 the Department for Transport announced the six bidders which have been prequalified to submit ‘innovative and ambitious proposals’ to operate two passenger franchises in northern England. Invitations to tender are expected to be issued in December, with the winners to be announced by October 2015. The new franchises are scheduled to start in February 2016.
> 
> The Northern franchise covers commuter, regional and rural services. It is currently held by a 50:50 joint venture of Serco and Abellio, which operates 2 500 trains/day serving more than 500 stations. The shortlisted bidders are:
> 
> Abellio Northern Ltd
> Arriva Rail North Ltd
> Govia Northern Ltd
> The new franchise would run for eight to 10 years, with DfT having an option for an extension of up to one year.
> 
> The TransPennine Express franchise operates regional express services linking northern cities. It is currently held by a joint venture of FirstGroup (55%) and Keolis (45%), which operates 300 services/day serving 105 stations, with 60% of the 70 000 passengers/day being leisure travellers. The shortlisted bidders are:
> 
> First Trans Pennine Express Ltd
> Keolis Go-Ahead Ltd
> Stagecoach Trans Pennine Express Trains Ltd
> ...


----------



## Manchester77

FGW have a new mark III refurbishment for first class:
























Notice the GWR initials on the seats.
http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/100786/first-great-western-unveils-refurbished-first-c


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Looks absolutely splendid!


----------



## IanCleverly

The Scotsman said:


> *Edinburgh Waverley station to get 2 new platforms*
> 
> Two new platforms will replace the former taxi rank at Waverley station in Edinburgh to help cater for an expected doubling of passengers over the next ten years, Network Rail announced today.
> 
> Three other platforms will be extended to accommodate longer trains as part of the latest £25m upgrade of Scotland’s second busiest station, which handles around 20 million passengers a year. It currently has 18 platforms. Two new “long length” platforms will be created south of the main building, which was used by taxis until June.
> 
> Platforms five and six, at the east end of the former taxi rank, will be brought back into use and extended, while platform 12, on the west side of the station, will also be lengthened. Tracks will be streamlined to ease train movements, and signalling improved.
> 
> The extra space is needed for longer trains on the main line to Glasgow when it is electrified in 2016, and new trains on the east coast main line to London two years later.
> 
> Preliminary work will start in October, with platform construction starting in February and finishing in March 2016.


Taken from Here


----------



## Sopomon

Is that south of the two southernmost platforms or just north of them?


----------



## DaeguDuke

Sopomon said:


> Is that south of the two southernmost platforms or just north of them?


As far as I can tell it is north of the southernmost platforms (7-10). Looks like the plan is to extend the shortened 11 to join with 4/6 creating an additional through platform


----------



## 437.001

Manchester77 said:


> FGW have a new mark III refurbishment for first class:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the GWR initials on the seats.
> http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/100786/first-great-western-unveils-refurbished-first-c


Why the GWR logo still appears even if that company is long gone? :hmm:


----------



## Manchester77

437.001 said:


> Why the GWR logo still appears even if that company is long gone? :hmm:


That's not the original GWR logo, it'll be a modern rendition for heritage purposes. Same reason why the TOC Southern has 'proper' southern railway inspired colours and totem logos.


----------



## IanCleverly

Gloucestershire Echo said:


> A £45m project to double the railway track from Swindon to Kemble was completed this weekend. The upgrade will mean reduced journey times for passengers and the possibility of more trains in the future.
> 
> The re-doubling of the line to make it into two tracks means it trains can simultaneously get to and from Gloucestershire into north Wiltshire.
> 
> The extra 12.5 miles (20km) of track was approved in 2011 with work starting in January 2013. The upgrade also saw improvements to earthworks to accommodate the new track and new signalling equipment to ensure the safety of new trains.
> 
> Network Rail said it will provide an increase capacity to meet future passenger demand as well as reduce delays for a more reliable service.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Other improvements include extra signals between Kemble and Standish Junction, a level crossing upgrades at Minety and Purton Collins Lane and a new footbridge in Stroud.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> The upgrade, which could cater for four trains every hours in each direction, has not led to an increase in services. However, more trains are not being ruled out for the future.


Taken from Here


----------



## IanCleverly

More 'local to me' news, as The Ebbw Vale line (in South Wales) will get a new station soon-ish:



South Wales Argus said:


> IMAGES have been released showing how the new railway station at Pye Corner in Rogerstone will look when it opens later this year.
> 
> Funding for the new station in the Rogerstone ward was announced last year and construction began in March. It will feature a single platform, CCTV, ticket purchasing facilities, a car park for 70 cars and customer information screens.
> 
> Improvements will also be made to the highway infrastructure and to Western Valley Road, including a new mini roundabout at the junction with High Cross Lane which will provide access to the station car park.
> 
> The next phase of the work involves the contractors, in conjunction with Network Rail, completing the new platform and carrying out electrical works to Western Valley Road.
> 
> However, due to the close proximity of the live rail track and the nature of the construction, the work to the platform cannot be done while trains are operating. It has been agreed that this work will be done overnight beginning this week.
> 
> www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/11437196.New_Pye_Corner_station_to_open_later_this_year/


and some flickr pictures of what it looked like earlier in the month:-


PYE CORNER CONSTRUCTION STATION SITE NEWPORT 01.08.2014 (3) by ALEA47426, on Flickr


PYE CORNER CONSTRUCTION STATION SITE NEWPORT 01.08.2014 (1) by ALEA47426, on Flickr


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ew/reading-viaduct-ready-for-tracklaying.html
> 
> *Reading viaduct ready for tracklaying*
> 29 Aug 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Reading viaduct_
> 
> UK: The structure of a £45m viaduct which is being built as part of the £895m remodelling of the Great Western Main Line through Reading has been handed over to infrastructure manager Network Rail by construction contractor Balfour Beatty, ready for tracklaying by Carillion.
> 
> The 320 concrete beams for the 2 km viaduct, each 23 m long, were precast by Shay Murtagh in Ireland.
> 
> Trains are scheduled to begin using the viaduct in 2015, reducing congestion by enabling inter-city services from London to Bristol and south Wales to pass over the lines to Newbury, Basingstoke and the southwest of England, including a spur carrying freight trains to and from the port of Southampton


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...classification-nationalises-network-rail.html
> 
> *Reclassification nationalises Network Rail*
> 01 Sep 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: National infrastructure manager Network Rail has been formally designated as a part of central government with effect from September 1. This coincides with a change in European accounting rules from the same date, requiring what NR called ‘a statistical change’ to reclassify its debt from the private to the public sector.
> 
> Challenged last year by the EU statistical office Eurostat about NR’s compliance with new rules in the 2010 European System of Accounts, the Office of National Statistics announced on December 17 that NR would in future be considered as a public body
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...m-to-refurbish-scottish-emus.html?channel=542
> 
> *Alstom to refurbish Scottish EMUs*
> Monday, September 01, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ROLLING stock leasor Eversholt Rail has awarded Alstom a £36.1m contract to refurbish its 40 class 334 EMUs operated by First ScotRail on services between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Bathgate_
> 
> Work is due to start in early 2015 and will take place at the Glasgow Traincare Centre in Polmadie, where components will be removed and refitted, and at Manchester Traincare Centre. Eversholt says the work will improve the reliability and the passenger environment onboard the trains which entered service in Scotland in 2001
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ins-south-west-trains-suburban-emu-order.html
> 
> *Siemens wins South West Trains suburban EMU order*
> 03 Sep 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Impression of Siemens Desiro City electric multiple-unit for South West Trains_
> 
> UK: South West Trains announced on September 3 that it had selected Siemens and leasing company Angel Trains for a £210m contract to supply 30 five-car electric multiple-units. The Desiro City EMUs would be ‘similar in style to the Class 700 units being produced for the Thameslink route’.
> 
> Deliveries are scheduled to run from 2017 to early 2018. The 750 V DC third rail EMUs are to be operated in 10-car sets on the London Waterloo – Windsor route, allowing existing units to be redeployed to provide extra capacity on SWT’s suburban network including routes into Waterloo from Reading, Basingstoke, Kingston, Epsom, Hampton Court and Guildford via Cobham
> 
> ...


----------



## Stravinsky

dimlys1994 said:


> And another new upgrade plans in the UK - this time at Cardiff Central station:
> 
> 
> 
> This one seems unusual - old station building covered by new one


Nice Barajas roof.


----------



## stefeni-ts

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ins-south-west-trains-suburban-emu-order.html

Siemens wins South West Trains suburban EMU order
03 Sep 2014 
Impression of Siemens Desiro City electric multiple-unit for South West Trains. 

UK: South West Trains announced on September 3 that it had selected Siemens and leasing company Angel Trains for a £210m contract to supply 30 five-car electric multiple-units. The Desiro City EMUs would be ‘similar in style to the Class 700 units being produced for the Thameslink route’. 

Deliveries are scheduled to run from 2017 to early 2018. The 750 V DC third rail EMUs are to be operated in 10-car sets on the London Waterloo – Windsor route, allowing existing units to be redeployed to provide extra capacity on SWT’s suburban network including routes into Waterloo from Reading, Basingstoke, Kingston, Epsom, Hampton Court and Guildford via Cobham. 

The contract is subject to a 10-day regulatory standstill period before it is formally signed by Stagecoach South Western Trains, along with associated amendments to the operator’s franchise with the Department for Transport. The new units will be maintained by South West Trains at Wimbledon depot. 

The EMU order is part of a five-year plan to increase capacity developed by the South West Trains-Network Rail Alliance. ‘As well as providing extra space for passengers using our services now, the combination of investment in the infrastructure and these new trains will create space at Waterloo that is the essential first step to allow an increase in capacity for our longer distance, mainline services’, said Tim Shoveller, Chief Executive of the South West Trains-Network Rail Alliance. ‘We will also continue to work with industry partners to develop options for the longer term.’ 

Associated infrastructure improvements include extending platforms 1-4 at Waterloo to accommodate 10-car trains, and reopening the remaining four former Eurostar platforms, along with track, signalling, power supply and depot enhancements. 


An interesting take on this story from Penny Mordaunt MP (Portsmouth North)

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/tr...il-commuters-miss-out-on-210m-boost-1-6280797


Portsmouth rail commuters miss out on £210m boost


There is criticism of rail investment plans 


There is criticism of rail investment plans

by Stuart Anderson
[email protected]




SOUTH West Trains is pouring £210m into upgrading its rolling stock – but Portsmouth commuters won’t see a penny of it. 


The company is placing an order for 150 new carriages from Siemens and Angel Trains for its Waterloo to Windsor route.

Public transport campaigners have criticised the plan, which leaves out improvements to Portsmouth’s cramped and crowded rail links.

A spokeswoman from South West Trains said: ‘There won’t be any changes to Portsmouth services as a result of the new trains. 

‘They are designed to provide much-needed extra capacity on some of our busiest routes.’

Portsmouth North MP Penny Mordaunt said commuters had long been getting a raw deal from South West Trains. 

Ms Mordaunt said she met with executives from the train company and Rail Minister Claire Perry earlier this week to talk about improving the Portsmouth to London service. 

She said: ‘It’s delightful for Windsor but the fight goes on for better services for Portsmouth.’ 

Ms Mordaunt said the area was served by suburban trains which were not suitable for long-distance travel. 

She said: ‘The thing that would make the biggest difference is having trains that are comfortable to sit on, and that have enough seats for people.

‘Surveys show 59 per cent of people cannot fit into the seats when their elbows are taken into account.’

Denis Fryer, of Totton, is co-ordinator of the South Hampshire Rail Users’ Group.

He said he was disappointed by the announcement.

He said: ‘It seems we’re left out time after time.’

Mr Fryer said a Passenger Focus survey placed customer satisfaction in the Portsmouth area 78th out of 79 areas across the country. 

He said: ‘Since privatisation, trains on the Portsmouth line in particular have been downgraded.

‘The trains they’re running are not suited to long distance and it now takes 10 per cent longer to get to London.

Campaign for Better Transport head of campaigns James MacColl called on the government to develop a long-term strategy for train improvements: ‘Increased investment in the railways is great news for everybody who relies on these trains. 

‘However passengers in Portsmouth will be frustrated that South West’s new trains won’t benefit the city’.


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## Manchester77

That story written by the MP is ridiculous. SWT has a franchise commitment to provide X number of seats on certain lines and if they were to use 444s then they wouldn't meet those commitments. Furthermore all trains serving Portsmouth are Siemens built trains under ten years old and yet she's describing them as tin cans - would she like to swap me so that Manchester can have an all electric network run by very reliable and comfortable desrios and she can have a mixture of 142s and 150s with the occasional 156 thrown in?


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

Manchester77 said:


> That story written by the MP is ridiculous. SWT has a franchise commitment to provide X number of seats on certain lines and if they were to use 444s then they wouldn't meet those commitments.


So basically the MP wants wider seats AND she wants more seats. It's sort of impossible without extra coaches or trains. Maybe SWT really should attach some cheap old stock coaches with signs "Be seated at your own risk of disappointment" :lol:

BTW how wide are those seats and how wide are the 59% of people with elbows?


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## Manchester77

BriedisUnIzlietne said:


> So basically the MP wants wider seats AND she wants more seats. It's sort of impossible without extra coaches or trains. Maybe SWT really should attach some cheap old stock coaches with signs "Be seated at your own risk of disappointment" :lol:
> 
> BTW how wide are those seats and how wide are the 59% of people with elbows?


I think she wants seating in 2+2 formation thus making it wider. All the old coaches have been scrapped bar a few preserved ones unfortunately. Maybe we should give the her line 455s and let suburban services in London have the 450s, after all the 455s have 2+2 seats - let's hope she can deal with not having as many seats or having a toilet though? :lol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Class_450_interior.JPG - 450 with 3+2 seating which she seems to dislike
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7219/13777055035_16d629e632_z.jpg - 444 interior with 2+2 seating


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## mavis_dark

I thought they were gonna build it in UK. Is it going to be a simple assembly with critical components made in Japan?


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## Manchester77

mavis_dark said:


> I thought they were gonna build it in UK. Is it going to be a simple assembly with critical components made in Japan?


The first few are bring built in Japan so they can start testing here and then the rest of the fleet will be assembled at Newton Aycliffe which will be like Derby where stuff is out together but traction packages, engines etc. will be imported. Not even the pantographs will be made here since they're using a Japanese design and not a normal Brecknell Willis high speed pantograph.


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## mavis_dark

Manchester77 said:


> The first few are bring built in Japan so they can start testing here and then the rest of the fleet will be assembled at Newton Aycliffe which will be like Derby where stuff is out together but traction packages, engines etc. will be imported. Not even the pantographs will be made here since they're using a Japanese design and not a normal Brecknell Willis high speed pantograph.


I see. So I guess they assemble those in UK just because it was helpful to win the contract.
To think UK, which was one of the pioneers of rail technology, has no domestic champion in railway technologyhno:


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## BriedisUnIzlietne

mavis_dark said:


> To think UK, which was one of the pioneers of rail technology, has no domestic champion in railway technologyhno:


And to think that the UK has bus operators and Deutsche Bahn as train operators...


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## Manchester77

*Govia Thameslink officially launched today:*

WP_20140915_07_53_53_Pro.jpg by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

WP_20140915_07_54_11_Pro.jpg by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr


St Pancras International Station by portemolitor, on Flickr


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## IanCleverly

Gaming, er, on the go?










Original 'tweet'


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## DaeguDuke

I'm frankly astounded that they found a working plug on a british train!


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## k.k.jetcar

> So I guess they assemble those in UK just because it was helpful to win the contract.


Certainly, and par for the course for any builder seeking international contracts- Siemens has built a factory in California to aid its sales in the U.S., for example. In Hitachi Rail's case, they are also seeking new contracts in continental Europe, and are planning to use the Newton Aycliffe factory as their European manufacturing base.


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## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/09/23/blackpool-and-shrewsbury-receive-london-rail-link/
> 
> *Blackpool and Shrewsbury receive London rail link*
> 23 SEP, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New direct rail services from Blackpool and Shrewsbury to London Euston have been approved by the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR).
> 
> Virgin Trains will launch the new services in December as part of a £50 million package of improvements it has promised to deliver during a three-year extension to the current West Coast main line franchise.
> 
> Two new direct weekday services will be created between Shrewsbury and London Euston, calling at Telford Central, Wellington, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry and Rugby.
> 
> A single weekday service will also run between Blackpool North and London, with stops at Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton le Flyde, Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe and Nuneaton.
> 
> Virgin Trains lead executive Phil Whittingham said: “With our extended franchise we are able to get back to doing what we do best, offering new journey opportunities whilst still delivering the same high standards of service to our customers.
> 
> “We have worked hard with our industry partners to gain the approval for these new services. Special thanks must go to the ORR, Network Rail and the Department for Transport. We thank them all for this big vote of confidence.”


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## M-NL

IanCleverly said:


> Gaming, er, on the go?


A more extreme Gamers train: Tweakers Express (and if you don't understand Dutch, just skip the talking).


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/09/24/pb-scoops-east-west-rail-scheme-phase-2/
> 
> *PB scoops East West Rail scheme phase 2 design*
> Wed 24th September 2014, 12:28
> 
> _Network Rail has picked Parsons Brinckerhoff to draw up designs for phase two of the East West Rail scheme_
> 
> The £8m contract will also see PB draw up the construction programme to re-establish a passenger and freight rail link between Oxford and Bedford, Milton Keynes and Aylesbury for the first time in more than 40 years.
> 
> It involves upgrading and reconstructing underused and disused sections of railway.
> 
> Work to electrify the line between Oxford and Bletchley will undertaken at the same time.
> 
> _Phase 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EWR works east of Bicester to Bletchley and Bedford, including the Aylesbury to Claydon Junction line within this five-year period ending March 2019
> Work involves upgrading the Bicester Town to Bletchley and Claydon Junction to Aylesbury freight line for passenger services
> Building a new station at Winslow
> Building new high level platforms at Bletchley Station and minor upgrades to the existing Bletchley to Bedford passenger railway
> ..._


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## Steve Ellwood

*On This Day In History - 27th September 1825 - First Passenger Railway*

This is an extract from John Sykes Local Records for this day in history, 27th September 1825:

The Stockton and Darlington railway was formally opened by the proprietors for the use of the public. 

It is 25 miles in length. To give eclât* to the public opening of the road, a programme was issued, stating that the proprietors would assemble at the permanent steam engine, below Brusselton Tower, about nine miles west of Darlington, at eight o'clock.

Accordingly the committee assembled at the bottom of Brusselton engine-plane, near West Auckland, and here the carriages, loaded with coals and merchandise, were drawn up the eastern ridge, by the Brusselton engine, a distance of 1,960 yards, in 7½ minutes, and then lowered down the plane on the east side of the hill, 880 yards, in 5 minutes. 

At the foot of the plane, the locomotive engine was ready to receive the carriages, and here the novelty of the scene, and the fineness of the day, had attracted an immense concourse of spectators, the fields on each side of the railway being literally covered with ladies and gentlemen on horseback, and pedestrians of all kinds. 

The train of carriages was then attached to a locomotive engine, built by Mr. George Stephenson, in the following order:— 
1. Locomotive engine, with the engineer (Mr. George Stephenson) and assistants. 
2. Tender, with coals and water; 

Next, six waggons, loaded with coals and flour; then an elegant covered coach, with the committee and other proprietors of the railway; then 21 waggons, fitted up for passengers; and, last of all, six waggons loaded with coals, making, altogether, a train of 38 carriages, exclusive of the engine and tender. 

Tickets were distributed to the number of near 300, but, such was the pressure and crowd, that both loaded and empty carriages were instantly filled with passengers.

The signal being given, the engine started off with this immense train of carriages, and such was its velocity, that, in some parts, the speed was frequently 12 miles an hour, and, in one place, for a short distance, near Darlington, 15 miles per hour; and at that time the number of passengers were counted to 450, which, together with the coals, merchandise, and carriages, would amount to near 90 tons. 

After some little delay in arranging the procession, the engine, with its load, arrived at Darlington, a distance of 8¾ miles, in 65 minutes. Six waggons loaded with coals, intended for Darlington, were then left behind, and, obtaining a fresh supply of water, and arranging the procession to accommodate a band of music and passengers from Darlington, the engine set off again, and arrived at Stockton in 3 hours and 7 minutes, including stops, the distance being nearly 12 miles. 

On the arrival of the procession at Darlington, it was received with bursts of applause. By the time the cavalcade arrived at Stockton, where it was received with great joy, there were not less than 600 persons within, and hanging by the carriages, which excited a deep interest and admiration. 

Part of the workmen were entertained at Stockton, and part at Yarm; and there was a grand dinner for the proprietors and their most distinguished guests, to the number of 102, at the Town-hall, in Stockton. Thomas Meynell, esq., of Yarm, was in the chair, and the mayor of the town acted as vice-president. 

The first rail of the Stockton and Darlington railway was laid by Thomas Meynell, esq., of the Friarage, Yarm, near St. John's Well, Stockton, where the depôt for coal is now erected, on the 23rd of May, 1822, with public ceremonies and rejoicing.

I had to look up the meaning for eclât

1: ostentatious display : publicity
2: dazzling effect : brilliance
3a : brilliant or conspicuous success
b : praise, applause









Image courtesy of Fero Culura @ http://www.ferrocultura.net/encarrilando/cual-fue-el-primer-ferrocarril/


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...k-finances-british-emu-order.html?channel=542
> 
> *Porterbrook finances British EMU order*
> Tuesday, September 30, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _BRITISH train operator Southern Railway announced on September 29 that it has selected Porterbrook leasing to finance an order worth around £172m for 29 four-car class 387/1 EMUs from Bombardier_
> 
> Production is underway at Bombardier's Derby plant and the first sets have already been delivered. The trains will enter service on the cross-London Thameslink network from next January.
> 
> The class 387s have been ordered as a stopgap measure due to delays in completing the procurement of a dedicated fleet of Siemens class 700 EMUs for Thameslink. The class 387s will be redeployed on other routes when these trains enter service.


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## Interstat

Manchester77 said:


> *Govia Thameslink officially launched today:*
> 
> WP_20140915_07_53_53_Pro.jpg by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr
> 
> WP_20140915_07_54_11_Pro.jpg by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr
> 
> 
> St Pancras International Station by portemolitor, on Flickr


Looks nice and almost a throwback to the first white Thameslink livery (which I always remember fondly, with those nice interior wall designs). The class 319's still look good!


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## Jonesy55

dimlys1994 said:


> From Global Rail News:


Whilst its great to get a direct London link from here in Shrewsbury, that route with all those stops will still probably be slower than a couple of indirect routes.

You can currently get to London Euston in 2h45 by either changing once at Crewe, or changing twice at Wolverhampton and Stafford.

And Crewe is 30 miles/50km further away from London than we are!


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## Suburbanist

There are 3 major rail links between Manchester and Liverpool, which one is used by direct/express services the most between both cities?


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## sotonsi

Suburbanist said:


> There are 3 major rail links between Manchester and Liverpool, which one is used by direct/express services the most between both cities?


3? Oh, you've done precisely zero research and are counting the via Wigan route that any rail map of the UK will tell you that this isn't major or a link between Manchester and Liverpool.

The route via Warrington currently has more express services IIRC (2tph v 1tph), but electrification works on the Newton-le-Willows route will mean that semi-fasts would be quicker than going via Warrington and there will be more expresses (though via Warrington will still be 2tph).


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## dimlys1994

More images on redevelopment of Glasgow Queen Street station:


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## Steve Ellwood

*Haltwhistle Station - Volume 1*

A beautiful example of a 19th century railway station, more or less in its original condition.

History of the station can be seen on the Disused Railway web site @ http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/haltwhistle/










*The Railway Signal Bo*x is Grade II Listed and this is the protection text courtesy of the British Listed Buildings web site @ http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-240761-railway-signal-box-on-south-platform-hal

*Description: Railway Signal Box on South Platform*

Grade: II
Date Listed: 27 July 1987
English Heritage Building ID: 240761

OS Grid Reference: NY7049463800
OS Grid Coordinates: 370494, 563800
Latitude/Longitude: 54.9679, -2.4624

Location: Station Road, Haltwhistle, Northumberland NE49 0AH

Locality: Haltwhistle
County: Northumberland
Country: England
Postcode: NE49 0AH

HALTWHISTLE STATION ROAD NY 76 SW (East side, off)
16/27 Railway signal box
on south platform
GV II

Signal box. Late C19 for the North Eastern Railway Company. Ground floor: engineering brick in English bond; weather-boarded first floor and Welsh slate roof. 2 storeys. 4-panel door on ground-floor left return. First floor: deep cyma-reversa, weather-boarded coving on oversailing front and rear; 4 glazed bays above raised-and-fielded panels (each bay with 3 cross windows); cast-iron walkway with railings on all 4 sides. Low-pitched hipped roof with overhanging eaves. 2 glazed bays to each return. Wood ladder stair at left to first-floor boarded door. Included for group value.

Listing NGR: NY7049463800














































*The Footbridge* is also a Listed Building, this is the protection text from the above source:

Description: Footbridge Connecting Platforms at Haltwhistle Railway

Grade: II
Date Listed: 27 July 1987
English Heritage Building ID: 240762

OS Grid Reference: NY7048763805
OS Grid Coordinates: 370487, 563805
Latitude/Longitude: 54.9680, -2.4625

Location: Station Road, Haltwhistle, Northumberland NE49 0AH

Locality: Haltwhistle
County: Northumberland
Country: England
Postcode: NE49 0AH

HALTWHISTLE STATION ROAD NY 76 SW (East side, off)
16/28 Footbridge connecting
platforms at
Haltwhistle Railway
Station
GV II

Footbridge connecting north and south platforms. Late C19 for the North Eastern Railway Company. Cast iron. U-plan. Wide elliptical arch across tracks carries horizontal walkway. L-plan stair sections flanking arch are supported by transverse round arches on squat corner posts. Railings: standards with moulded square knops; cross-bracing between middle and top rails.

Listing NGR: NY7048763805




































Images hosted on http://GeordiePhotographs.fototime.com/Haltwhistle/Haltwhistle Station


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## Steve Ellwood

*Haltwhistle Station - Volume 2*

The Grade II Listed *Water Tank Building* - protection text from the British Listed Buildings web site @ http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-240765-water-tank-building-and-2-water-colunns-

Description: Water Tank Building and 2 Water Colunns at Haltwhistle Railway Station

Grade: II
Date Listed: 22 August 1973
English Heritage Building ID: 240765

OS Grid Reference: NY7042163819
OS Grid Coordinates: 370421, 563819
Latitude/Longitude: 54.9681, -2.4635

Location: Station Road, Haltwhistle, Northumberland NE49 0AH

Locality: Haltwhistle
County: Northumberland
Country: England
Postcode: NE49 0AH

HALTWHISTLE STATION ROAD NY 76 SW (West side, off)
16/31 Water tank building
and 2 water columns
22.8.73 at Haltwhistle
Railway Station
II

Disused water tank building and 2 water columns. Building dated 1861, designed by Peter Tate and built by R. Wylie and Co. (see plaques on tank) for the North Eastern Railway Company. Iron water tank on stone base (red ashlar sandstone on front and right returns; dressed sandstone on rear and left return). Cast iron water columns.

Water tank building: one-storey base; 3 round arches with chamfered arch bands, on square piers with roll-moulded impost blocks. Arches with radial glazing and weather-boarded infill. 2 stepped bands above arcade. Tank made of iron plates bolted together. 7 plates on front and 5 on returns. Each plate has cross-braced ribs; central plates on all sides have oval panels with engineer's and maker's names, date and crowning sea-horse motif. Similar right return of 2 bays. Plain rear and left return.

The water columns are situated on 2 platforms to the west of the tank building. Each column has a ball finial and a counter-weighted swinging arm with a leather hose. A rare survival from the mid C19.

Listing NGR: NY7042163819














































This is an interesting wooden building which uses one wall from a previous stone building.













































Images hosted on http://GeordiePhotographs.fototime.com/Haltwhistle/Haltwhistle Station


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## Steve Ellwood

*Haltwhistle Station - Volume 3*

*The Ticket Office and Waiting Room* is Grade II Listed and this is the protection text from the British Listed Buildings web site @ http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-240764-ticket-office-and-waiting-room-west-of-s

Description: Ticket Office and Waiting Room West of Station House

Grade: II
Date Listed: 22 August 1973
English Heritage Building ID: 240764

OS Grid Reference: NY7045963816
OS Grid Coordinates: 370459, 563816
Latitude/Longitude: 54.9681, -2.4629

Location: Station Road, Haltwhistle, Northumberland NE49 0AH

Locality: Haltwhistle
County: Northumberland
Country: England
Postcode: NE49 0AH

HALTWHISTLE STATION ROAD NY 76 SW (East side)
16/30 Ticket office and
22.8.73 waiting room, west
of Station House
GV II

Waiting room and former ticket office (the latter now a Tourist Information Centre). 1838, probably by Benjamin Green for the Newcastle and Carlisle Railway Company. Dressed stone, Welsh slate roof and ashlar chimney stack. L-plan: main block with wing on right rear. Tudor style. Single storey. 4-bay front has low plinth and quoins. Enlarged C20 doorway at left; 6-panel door at right in chamfered surround under hoodmould. C19 circular clock face in wall beside right doorway. Two 2-light chamfered-mullioned windows between doorways with replaced sashes under hoodmoulds. Moulded stone gutter brackets. Roof has coped gables with square blocks at apexes and shaped kneelers. Central octagonal-plan ridge stack with moulded top band. 2-bay rear wing has similar fenestration and details. Included for group value.

(G. Whittle, The Newcastle and Carlisle Railway, 1979).

Listing NGR: NY7045963816




























*The Station House* is also Grade II Listed - here is the protection text from the above source:

Description: Station House

Grade: II
Date Listed: 22 August 1973
English Heritage Building ID: 240763

OS Grid Reference: NY7047063821
OS Grid Coordinates: 370470, 563821
Latitude/Longitude: 54.9681, -2.4628

Location: Station Road, Haltwhistle, Northumberland NE49 9HN

Locality: Haltwhistle
County: Northumberland
Country: England
Postcode: NE49 9HN

HALTWHISTLE STATION ROAD NY 76 SW (East side, off)
16/29 Station House
22.8.73
GV II

Former station master's house, now private dwelling. 1838, probably by Benjamin Green for the Newcastle and Carlisle Railway Company. Dressed stone, Welsh slate roof and ashlar chimney stacks. T-plan: deep gable fronted wing at left with set-back wing at right-angles on right; extruded front porch. Tudor style. Chamfered doorways and stone-mullioned windows. Projecting gable-fronted left bay: one storey plus attic; canted bay window under hipped roof; 2-light attic window above; steeply-pitched roof has coped gable with square block at apex and shaped footstones. Set-back wing at right-angles on right: tall single storey, 2 bays wide; porch on left bay and narrow 2- light window at right; steeply-pitched roof rises to same ridge height and has identical details at gable; cross-axial chimney with 4 conjoined octagonal-plan stacks. Gable-fronted porch of 2 low storeys: blocked doorway with round window above; similar roof and gable details. 3-bay left return has central, partly-glazed door with small sash window above and flanking 2-light windows. Attached single-storey former privy and coal shed, with boarded doors and lean-to roof, and similar porch/kitchen partly enclosing rear yard.

(G. Whittle, The Newcastle and Carlisle Railway, 1979).

Listing NGR: NY7047063821































































Images hosted on http://GeordiePhotographs.fototime.com/Haltwhistle/Haltwhistle Station


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/abellio-awarded-scotrail-franchise.html
> 
> *Abellio awarded ScotRail franchise*
> 08 Oct 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The Abellio subsidiary of Dutch national passenger operator NS has been awarded the next ScotRail franchise, the Scottish Government announced on October 8. Abellio is to take over from current franchisee FirstGroup on April 1 2015.
> 
> The franchise covers almost all internal passenger services within Scotland, and will run for a minimum of seven years, with an option to extend the term to 10 years by mutual consent after five years. The new franchise includes:
> 
> 'Transformation' of inter-city services with the introduction of 27 refurbished HST trainsets by December 2018;
> '80 new trains' for the Edinburgh - Glasgow corridor due to arrive by December 2017;
> Enhanced catering;
> Free wi-fi on all trains;
> Abellio's Dutch experience will support a 'new approach to cycling', including a £1·6m investment in 3 500 parking spaces, staffed Cyclepoints at city hubs and Cycleparks+ at five stations, and a £3·80/day Bike&Go cycle hire scheme at 10 stations;
> More through rail bus, sea and air ticketing, reduced fares for jobseekers, carnet tickets and starting prices for advance fares between any two Scottish cities of £5 for standard and £7·50 for first class;
> A Great Scenic Railway scheme to attract more tourists to the north, southwest and Borders;
> Shopping developments at Aberdeen and Inverness stations;
> Stations2Stations business centres to facilitate working at stations;
> A 'true deep alliance' with infrastructure manager Network Rail;
> £1m community rail programme, including 10 to 15 new Community Rail Partnerships;
> No compulsory redundancies throughout the life of the contract;
> An employee gain share scheme;
> At least 100 apprenticeships;
> Optional lifestyle checks and flu vaccines for frontline staff, with health trainers to assist with stress management, nutrition, exercise and stopping smoking;
> Guaranteed trade union representation on every franchise board meeting
> 
> ...


----------



## k.k.jetcar

^^
Those 80 new trainsets for the EGIP will be built by Hitachi, apparently the AT200 "regional" design.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11526499.Train_builder_Hitachi_secures_Scottish_deal/

Hitachi Rail Europe product description:
http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at-200-regional_46.html

EGIP description:
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/edinburgh-glasgow-improvement-programme/


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## Steve Ellwood

*On This Day In History - 12th October 1859*

Thomas Fordyce wrote about the demise of *Robert Stephenson* on this day in history, 12th October 1859 - taken from his Local Records:

Died, in London, in the fifty-sixth year of his age, Robert Stephenson, esq., the eminent engineer and locomotive manufacturer.

His loss was regarded as a national bereavement, and the expression of regret was universal.

Soon after the close of the preceding session Mr. Stephenson was in indifferent health, and, during a visit which he soon afterwards paid to Norway, he was attacked with a complaint of the liver. Whilst returning to England he was attacked with jaundice, and landing at Lowestoft it was necessary to carry him to the railway carriage. Dropsy set in on his arrival in town, and he was too weak to be relieved, and, after a few days' illness, he expired comparatively free from pain.

Mr.Stephenson was born at Willington, near Newcastle, on December 16, 1803. His father, who had felt the want of early education, resolved that his son should not suffer from the same cause, and accordingly sent him to a school at Long Benton, and 1814 placed him with Mr. Bruce, in Percy Street, Newcastle. Robert soon displayed a decided inclination for mechanics and science, and becoming a member of the Newcastle Literary and Philosophical Society was enabled to take advantage of its library.

In 1818 Robert was taken from school, and apprenticed to Mr. Nicholas Wood as a coal viewer, and was made thoroughly acquainted with the machinery and processes of coal mining. In 1820 he was sent to Edinburgh University for a single session, where he attended the lectures of Dr. Hope on chemistry; those of Sir John Leslie on natural philosophy; and those of Professor Jamieson on geology and mineralogy. In 1822 he was apprenticed to his father, who had then commenced his locomotive manufactory at Newcastle.

After two years' strict attention to the business, finding his health failing, he accepted a commission to examine the gold and silver mines of South America, whence he was recalled by his father, when the Liverpool and Manchester Railway was in progress, and he reached home in 1827. He took an active part in the discussion as to the use of locomotives on the line, and, in conjunction with Mr. Joseph Locke, wrote an able pamphlet on the subject. His next employment was the execution of a branch from the Liverpool and Manchester, near Warrington, now forming a portion of the Grand Junction Railway, between Birmingham and Liverpool. Before this branch was completed he undertook the survey, and afterwards the construction, of the Leicester and Swanninton Railway; and on the completion of that work he commenced the survey of the line of the London and Birmingham Railway, of which he was ultimately appointed engineer, -and removed to London. Under his direction the first sod was cut at Chalk Farm on June 1st, 1834, and the line was opened September 15, 1838.

He still continued to devote much of his time to improvements in the locomotive engine, which were, from time to time, carried out under his direction at the manufactory in Newcastle. His engagements on different lines of railway had been very numerous, but he was more remarkable for the magnificent conception and the vastness of some of his successfully executed projects, such as the High Level Bridge, the Viaduct at Berwick, supposed to be the largest in the world, the Tubular Bridge over the Conway, at the castle, and the Britannia Tubular Bridge over the Menai Straits, a form of bridge of which there had been previously no example, and to which, considering its length and the enormous weight it would have to sustain, the objections and difficulties seemed almost insuperable.

Mr. Stephenson was also employed in the construction of many foreign railways. He was consulted, with his father, as to the Belgium lines; also for a line in Norway, between Christiana and Lake Miosen, for which he received the Grand Cross of the Order of St. Olaf from the King of Sweden; and also for one between Florence and Leghorn, about sixty miles in length. He designed the Victoria Tubular Bridge over the S. Lawrence, near Montreal (on the model of that over the Menai Straits), in connection with the Grand Trunk Railway of Canada, for uniting Canada West with the Western States of the United States of America. He had recently completed the railway between Alexandria and Cairo, a distance of 150 miles. He also built an immense bridge across the Nile at Kaffoe Azzayat, to replace the steam ferry.

In addition to his railway labours Mr. Stephenson took a general interest in public affairs, and especially in scientific investigations. In 1857 he was returned as a member of Parliament in the Conservative interest, for Whitby, n Yorkshire, for which place he continued to sit until his death. He was an honorary but an active member of the London Sanitary Commission, a Fellow of the Royal Society, a member of the Institution of Civil Engineers, of which institution he was vice-president and president. In 1857 he received the honorary degree of D.C.L. from the University of Oxford, amidst the enthusiastic applause of the students. He received a great gold medal of honour from the French Exposition d'Industrie of 1855.

Mr. Stephenson married, in 1829, Frances, daughter of John Sanderson, Esq., of London, who died without issue in 1842.

The deceased was interred in Westminster Abbey, on the 21st, between the tombs of George Telford, the constructor of the Suspension Bridge over the Menai Straits, and Dr. Bell, the founder of the Madras system of teaching. The Abbey was crowded by scientific and eminent men from all parts of the kingdom.

In Newcastle all the shops suspended business, and the workmen belonging to the manufactory attended St. Nicholas' Church in a body, when an appropriate sermon was preached by the Vicar.

Mr Stephenson left the bulk of his fortune to his cousin, Mr. George Robert Stephenson, and amongst the many bequests which he made were the following:—To the Newcastle Infirmary, ten thousand pounds; to the Newcastle Literary and Philosophical Society, seven thousand pounds; to - the Institute of Civil Engineers, two thousand pounds; to the Curates' Aid Society, two thousand pounds; and to other charities four thousand pounds.

Image of Robert Stephenson court5esy of Newcastle City Libraries Archive Collection on Flickr:
*
Newcastle Libraries
002052:Robert Stephenson 1803-1859*
Description : Robert Stephenson Railway and civil engineer. Born willington Quay son of George Stephenson. Over saw the building of the Rocket locomotive at the Robert Stephenson works in Newcastle. Famous railway and bridge builder most notably the High Level Bridge in Newcastle-Upon -Tyne and the Royal Border Bridge in Berwick -Upon-Tweed.









https://www.flickr.com/photos/newcastlelibraries/4076256356/sizes/o/


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/consortium-agrees-to-buy-porterbrook.html
> 
> *Consortium agrees to buy Porterbrook*
> 13 Oct 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The owners of rolling stock leasing company Porterbrook Rail Finance Ltd announced an agreement for the sale of their interests to an international consortium of investors on October 10. The transaction is expected to close by the end of October.
> 
> Porterbrook owns and manages around 5 900 passenger and freight vehicles, representing approximately one-third of Great Britain's passenger rolling stock fleet. It is owned by a consortium of Antin Infrastructure, OP Trust and iCON Infrastructure, which announced in May that it was ‘exploring options’ for a possible sale
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

Update on Borders Railway:


----------



## dimlys1994

Video promoting feasibility study of level crossings closure on East Coast Main Line:


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...l-stations-is-given-the-green-light-21aa.aspx
> 
> *Doubling of the railway lines between Bristol stations is given the green light*
> Thursday 30 Oct 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passengers and businesses in Bristol are set to benefit from an increase in train and freight services, reduced journey times and a better travelling experience after Network Rail announced today the doubling of the railway lines between the city’s two main stations.
> 
> Demand for rail travel into Bristol is continuing to increase and is set to rise by half in less than a decade. To help meet this demand, the number of lines between Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway stations will be increased from two to four through Stapleton Road and Lawrence Hill, resulting in an increase in train services and reduced journey times. The extra lines will also enable an increase in freight services, contributing to economic growth in the region by helping businesses to move more goods, more efficiently by rail.
> 
> Known as the ‘Filton Four Tracks’ project, the work forms part of Network Rail’s Great Western Route Modernisation Programme to modernise and transform the Great Western Main Line from London Paddington through to Swansea. Under a separate programme of work, this route will also benefit from electrification and a new fleet of faster, quieter and greener electric trains by December 2017
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-europe-tops-out-newton-aycliffe-factory.html
> 
> *Hitachi Rail Europe tops out Newton Aycliffe factory*
> 30 Oct 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: A topping-out ceremony on October 30 marked the completion of the structure for Hitachi Rail Europe’s rolling stock plant at Newton Aycliffe in County Durham. Construction of the £82m factory began in November 2013 and is expected to be completed by mid-2015.
> 
> ‘Today’s topping-out ceremony signifies a milestone’, said Keith Jordan, Managing Director of Hitachi Rail Europe. ‘This is no longer just a concept - everybody can see for themselves the sheer scale of the site that will act as the hub for our rail manufacturing work in the UK and across Europe’.
> 
> During the ceremony, Hitachi Rail Europe announced that it is to base its UK design office at the site. This will initially have 12 staff, of which eight are still to be recruited, and will begin work by developing interior designs for the AT200 electric multiple-units ordered by Abellio for the next ScotRail franchise
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ew/c2c-expands-itso-smart-card-ticketing.html
> 
> *c2c expands ITSO smart card ticketing*
> 03 Nov 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Commuter operator c2c began offering season tickets on its c2c Smart card from November 3, including Travelcards valid for travel on the National Rail and Transport for London networks within Greater London. c2c Smart is the government’s pilot for the South East Flexible Ticketing programme to introduce smart ticketing across 12 companies operating trains into London.
> 
> c2c Smart cards are compatible with other cards meeting the national ITSO specification, including the Key smart card introduced by train operator Southern. Following the ITSO on Prestige project, they are also compatible with TfL’s proprietary Oyster smart card system
> 
> ...


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Would be so good to see a roll out across the country like the Japanese are doing and like The Netherlands has already done. Would be so handy.


----------



## TedStriker

New Cross-Channel intermodal traffic between London and Dourges for Europorte


----------



## link_road_17/7

From RailProfessional November issue:



RailProfessional said:


> *East West plans enter new phase*
> 
> Parsons Brinckerhoff has been awarded an £8 million design contract for the second phase of the East West Rail scheme.
> 
> The engineering consultant will be carrying out works that include timetable modelling, the design and alignment of track, civil engineering works to bridges and embankments, geotechnical investigation and survey works.
> 
> Upon completion, the East West project will re-establish a passenger and freight rail link between Oxford and Bedford, Milton Keynes and Aylesbury for the first time in more than 40 years.
> 
> Andy Milne, Network Rail senior programme manager, said: "The work Parsons Brinckerhoff will be carrying out will enable the project to be developed to the point where we can then award the contracts for detailed design and construction."
> 
> The first phase of the scheme is already underway, with the construction and doubling of track for more than 18km of railway that will allow line speeds to increase to 100mph. Also on the agenda is the construction of new overbridges, underbridges and footbridges, the closure of 37 level crossings and a new signalling system for Bicester Town and Islip stations.
> 
> Darren Reed, Parsons Brinckerhoff's director of rail UK/Europe, said: "We look forward to developing this visionary strategic transport scheme, which in turn will encourage economic growth and promote sustainable transport solutions."


----------



## Black Watch

*Edinburgh to Glasgow £250m railway improvement contract awarded*



> A £250m contract to electrify rail lines and extend station platforms has been awarded to improve journey times between Scotland's two biggest cities.
> 
> Engineering and construction groups Costain and Morgan Sindall are to work with Network Rail on the engineering aspects of the Edinburgh-Glasgow Improvement Programme (Egip).
> 
> Piling works to create the foundations needed to erect overhead power lines are set to start this week and will be completed by summer 2015.
> 
> It is hoped the improvements will reduce journey times between Glasgow and Edinburgh by 20% and increase capacity on the trains by 30%.
> 
> Earlier in 2014, it emerged that the cost of Egip had risen from £650m to £741.5m.
> 
> Funded by the Scottish Government, the project will deliver a rolling programme of electrification across the central belt over the next five years and beyond.
> 
> The project will also see route clearance works at Winchburgh Tunnel and platform extensions at Croy, Falkirk High, Polmont and Linlithgow stations.
> 
> Edinburgh Haymarket has already been redeveloped as part of the project at a cost of £25m and Glasgow Queen Street station is to be significantly revamped.
> 
> A new station, the Edinburgh Gateway Interchange, will also be built at Gogar.
> 
> Speaking at a training base in South Lanarkshire, transport minister Keith Brown said: "This £250m contract marks a significant milestone in the Egip project, which will provide 20% quicker journey times, 30% more capacity and a complete overhaul of stations in both cities, with the new-look Haymarket station already completed on time and under budget and the planned transformation of Queen Street station into a 21st century transport hub.
> 
> "The Scottish Government's record level of investment in our railways is achieving even more than improved train journeys. It's providing jobs and training opportunities such as those in the Babcock training facility in Hamilton where we are making this announcement.
> 
> "That is, in turn, contributing to Scotland's growth and the sustainability of our engineering sector, as well as a bright future for the young people here setting out on a career path in the rail industry."
> 
> Rodger Querns, Network Rail programme director, said: "Egip is a unique chance to modernise and enhance our railway and transform rail services across the central belt. It is transformational in its scope and scale and will herald a step-change in the nature of our railway infrastructure, its resilience and reliability."


http://news.stv.tv/west-central/298...dall-awarded-egip-rail-construction-contract/


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/first-class-800-trainset-unveiled.html
> 
> *First Hitachi Class 800 trainset unveiled*
> 13 Nov 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The first of 122 trainsets for inter-city services on the East Coast and Great Western main lines was unveiled at Hitachi’s factory at Kasado in southwest Japan on November 13.
> 
> The trains are being supplied by Hitachi under the Department for Transport’s Intercity Express Programme. Hitachi is building three pre-series trainsets at Kasado before volume production begins; first to be unveiled is a five-car electro-diesel trainset where the three intermediate vehicles are fitted with MTU underfloor powerpacks complying with Euro IIIB emissions standards. A further five-car dual mode train is undergoing final assembly, while the third train is a nine-car trainset eventually destined for use on the ECML
> 
> ...


----------



## Sr.Horn

Hybrid Class 800 leaves Japan






Some data: Max speed 225km/h, commercial speed 201km/h.
Length car 26 meters, wide body 2,7 meters.
Formation: 9 cars-unit (627 passengers), 5 cars-unit (315 passengers).

Response


----------



## stefeni-ts

I have this (class 801) on Train Simulator 2015 if the real thing looks as good as the game version it will make a worthy replacement for the aging HST's (I remember their introduction and all the hype back in the mid 70's on the GWR.


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...losure-as-Watford-upgrades-continue-21b2.aspx
> 
> *Passengers reminded of Abbey Line closure as Watford upgrades continue*
> Tuesday 11 Nov 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Major work to renew a junction connecting the railway line between Watford Junction and St Albans Abbey and the West Coast Main Line will start on 29 November.
> 
> For four weeks until 29 December, the Abbey Line will close to allow engineers to also modernise the signalling equipment on this part of the network. This essential upgrade is part of a £81m project to deliver a more reliable railway between Milton Keynes and London Euston
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...dier-sign-gatwick-express-train-contract.html
> 
> *Govia and Bombardier sign Gatwick Express train contract*
> 18 Nov 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Passenger franchisee Govia Thameslink Railway announced on November 18 that it had signed a £145·2m order for 27 four-car Bombardier Electrostar Class 387/2 electric multiple-units for use on Gatwick Express services.
> 
> The EMUs are scheduled to enter service between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport in 2016, with some services continuing to Brighton off-peak. The Electrostars will replace 1980s-built Class 442 units which have operated Gatwick Express services since 2008, and according to GTR will be ‘specially designed for the rail-air route with easier boarding, better luggage space, 2+2 seating and wi-fi.’
> 
> The contract is a follow-on to a previous order for 116 Class 387/1 cars which Govia company Southern placed in July 2013. These were ordered on behalf of the Department for Transport, for interim use by GTR on the Thameslink route between Bedford, London and Brighton from December 2014 until 2016 when the new Siemens Class 700 Desiro City fleet is expected to be in service. By May 2015 ‘virtually every train’ on the Thameslink Bedford – Brighton service group will be an Electrostar according to GTR, enabling the current fleet of Class 319 EMUs to be redeployed elsewhere in the country as part of DfT’s electrification programme
> 
> ...


----------



## AlexNL

Those look rather cramped...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-welsh-electrification213232.html?channel=537
> 
> *Deal reached on Welsh electrification*
> Friday, November 21, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _AFTER months of political deadlock, the British government and the Welsh assembly have reached an agreement on funding for the electrification of the South Wales Main Line between Cardiff and Swansea and the Valley Lines suburban network around Cardiff_
> 
> In March a row erupted between the British and Welsh governments over who should fund the two projects. The Welsh government claimed the British government had agreed to fund both schemes, but the British government insisted that the cost of the Valley Lines electrification should be covered by the Welsh.
> 
> However under the deal which will be announced by British prime minister Mr David Cameron in Newport today, the British government will take over sponsorship and fund electrification of the Cardiff – Bridgend section of the Cardiff – Swansea line at a cost of £105m and contribute £125m towards the Valley Lines electrification. In return, the Welsh government will sponsor and deliver the Valley Lines project, and will be responsible for financing the remaining £170m
> 
> ...


----------



## Svartmetall

AlexNL said:


> Those look rather cramped...


That's the only real problem I have with the British network - loading gauge. It really restricts the rolling stock width.


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## M-NL

In reality that difference is limited to about 10cm to 12cm in the majority of cases (UK mark3/4 carriages: 2,73m, continental UIC-X carriages 2,825 and for reference long distance bus: 2,55m). The real problem is 5 abreast seating.


----------



## TedStriker

M-NL said:


> The real problem is 5 abreast seating.



Yes, I'm glad someone made this point. There ought to be a law stating that passenger trains in Britain are only ever four abreast at most.


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## Svartmetall

How many UK trains are five abreast? All trains I have been on are four max in the UK.


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## DaeguDuke

Mostly suburban services. Often see 5 abreast seating on Glasgow low level services


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## DKF01

Svartmetall said:


> How many UK trains are five abreast? All trains I have been on are four max in the UK.


If by five abreast mean train with five seats then:

BR Class 377 
BR Class 455
BR Class 313
BR Class 442 (i think)


----------



## Christopher125

DKF01 said:


> If by five abreast mean train with five seats then:
> 
> BR Class 377
> BR Class 455
> BR Class 313
> BR Class 442 (i think)


The 442 is effectively a long distance design with 2+2 seating.

As for 2+3, this is beginning to dissapear - new trains and major refurbishments are going back to 2+2 as three abreast is unpopular with passengers while the extra aisle width provides more room for standing.

Chris


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## Manchester77

Svartmetall said:


> How many UK trains are five abreast? All trains I have been on are four max in the UK.


Depending on the refurbishment that they've undergone, most 142s (the ones with the bus benches) are 3+2, the FNW, ATW refurbished and ex-BR 150s are 3+2, the 165s and 166s are 3+2 I think, the 319s (except 319/2s) are 3+2, 315s are 3+2, Great Northern 313s are, think the 314s are, most 321s are, 350/2s are, southern 455s, 450s are, 456s were (the refurbished ones aren't), and then the networkers (365, 465, 466) are all 3+2 I think.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ains-wessex-network-unveiled.html?channel=542
> 
> *Blueprint for Britain’s Wessex network unveiled*
> Tuesday, November 25, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _BRITAIN's infrastructure manager Network Rail (NR) has issued the Wessex Route Plan, a blueprint for the future of passenger and freight services from London Waterloo to the south and the west of England over the next 30 years_
> 
> The draft consultation plan sets out how the network could cope with an anticipated 40% growth in use of South West Main Line services from London Waterloo to Reading, Southampton, Weymouth, Portsmouth and Exeter as well as suburban services in southwest London, Berkshire and Surrey by 2043. Freight traffic is also set to grow on the primary route on the network from the Port of Southampton to the midlands and the north.
> 
> The study identifies needs to increase capacity by 60% to meet expected demand on high-peak services into London Waterloo, which is equivalent to 37 trains per hour.
> 
> Among the suggested projects is the addition of a fifth track between Clapham Junction and Surbiton, the introduction of ETCS and automatic train operation (ATO) on the main lines, new flyovers at Woking and Basingstoke, and electrification of the line from Basingstoke via Salisbury to Southampton. The plan also considers Crossrail 2 from as critical to delivering the required capacity. Grade separation in Basingstoke and the introduction of a four-track section between Wallers Ash and Micheldever could also provide an hourly freight service from Southampton to the Midlands
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2014/11/25/plans-for-150m-guildford-station-regen-scheme/
> 
> *Plans for £150m Guildford station regen scheme*
> Tue 25th November 2014, 7:05
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _A joint venture between Kier Property and Network Rail is submitting plans this week to bring forward a £150m regeneration of Guildford station_
> 
> It is the seventh project to be promoted by Solum Regeneration, a £500m joint venture established in 2008 between Network Rail and Kier Property to bring private investment into the rail network.
> 
> Solum generates funds from the development of under-used railway land and has completed projects at Christchurch, Epsom and Walthamstow.
> 
> Work is due to start shortly at Redhill and Haywards Heath and at Twickenham after the 2015 Rugby World Cup
> 
> ...


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Looks pretty good if you ask me. Guildford is very wealthy and a nice little town. Great commuter link to London.


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## k.k.jetcar

Looks like a good TOD scheme. Replacing acres of parking lot blight. Here is more info:
http://guildfordforward.com/proposal.html


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## Svartmetall

This isn't the only redevelopment of stations that has caught my eye in the UK, though. Recently my home town has been building a new station - a massive improvement over the old one. It replaced a lot of parking blight with a larger, more open station and a station with street activation too. Take a look at the map here:

https://www.google.se/maps/@52.2367...m4!1e1!3m2!1sOqZQpBpyDqHolKvRVRSreQ!2e0?hl=en

The old station:



Here is how the area looked in 2009 at the road near the station:





And now in 2014 showing the new station that is actually on the road now.



And also the bus drop-off right outside the station:



Here is the project website:

http://www.northamptonstation.co.uk/

And associated video of the station redevelopment:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...oast-franchise-for-stagecoach-and-virgin.html
> 
> *£3·3bn premium wins East Coast franchise for Stagecoach and Virgin*
> 27 Nov 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The Inter-City Railways consortium of Stagecoach Group (90%) and Virgin Holdings (10%) has been selected to operate inter-city services on the East Coast Main Line, the Department for Transport announced on November 27. The contract is to be signed following the usual 10-day standstill period. Under the eight-year franchise starting on March 1 2015, the operator has committed to paying premia valued at £3·3bn.
> 
> The ICR proposal was selected ahead of bids from FirstGroup and a consortium of Eurostar and Keolis, which are both majority-owned by French state railway SNCF. Because the services have been run by the state-owned Directly Operated Railways since the previous franchise was terminated five years ago, the business is being returned to the private sector through a trade sale of DOR subsidiary East Coast Trains, rather than a transfer of the franchise.
> 
> ‘This is a fantastic deal for passengers and for staff on this vital route’, said Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McLoughlin. ‘It gives passengers more seats, more services and new trains. I believe Stagecoach and Virgin will not only deliver for customers but also for the British taxpayer.’
> 
> Virgin and Stagecoach currently operate the InterCity West Coast franchise through a 51%:49% partnership, while Stagecoach also holds the East Midlands Trains franchise, giving it a stake in all three main lines to the North of England and both routes to Scotland
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal. This week Britain is on headlines - once again, another electrification is approved:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...r-windermere-electrification.html?channel=542
> 
> *Windermere electrification funding approved*
> Friday, November 28, 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _BRITISH transport minister Baroness Kramer announced on November 28 that the Department for Transport has allocated £16m to fund the electrification of the 16km Oxenholme – Windermere line in northwest England_
> 
> The line is currently served by First TransPennine Express services to Manchester Airport and all other non-electrified sections of this route have already been committed for electrification, prompting concerns that the branch may lose its direct services to Manchester, which are considered vital in an area heavily dependent on tourism.
> 
> Infrastructure manager Network Rail will now begin detailed planning for the project, which is due to be completed by 2017


----------



## WingTips

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal. This week Britain is on headlines - once again, another electrification is approved:


This is great news, Windermere is the gateway to the Lake District one of the most beautiful areas in Great Britain.


----------



## Richard_P

Manchester77 said:


> Many, many reasons. Low, historic bridgs which would need rebuilding; *the fact that we use high platforms which aren't ideal for DD trains by the looks of things*; Overhead Line Equipment would need altering which costs ££££; southern region power supply would need massively upgrading.


Well, the high platforms are ideal for DD trains, just look at all Sydney fleet, there are also some examples in Continental Europe eg. France, Germany (especially ex DDR DD train sets exported to other east block countries). Thanks to high platforms entrance can be placed above bogies (where 2 floors can't fit) allowing to utilise fully space between bogies (where 2 floors can be placed) giving very good capacity increase. So regarding UK loading gauge problem with DD cars lays in platform cant being to close to tracks and restricted height. Of course there still can be build something like in Japan:







Source 
but those trains are still a bit wider and higher so British DD trains should have to be lower by 30 cm (1 ft) and low deck will be only 2 m (6,56 ft) wide enabling only 1+1 seating which adding additional costs basically makes DD trains in C1 loading gauge without any common sense.


----------



## TedStriker

I don't think the double deck idea will go anywhere. Grade separation in Basingstoke and Woking? Yes, flyovers/unders in both locations are long overdue anyway. 

But not double deck trains....


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## Richard_P

^^ I am not saying that it's desirable but only that this is doable. But not to waste time look at pdf "Space trains –a double deck vision" (which can be found for example here) on page 16 where possible layout within UK loading gauge is presented. But it is clear that this layout is optimistic as from practical reasons only 2+2 on upper and 1+2 on lower level is possible while interior height is also a bit optimistic.


----------



## AlexNL

Sopomon said:


> Ah right, so basically it's never really the case that the leasing company buys the trains and then tells the TOCs "this is what we have available for you to use"?


I don't think so, this would mean a huge financial liability for the ROSCO if they have no customers for the rolling stock they ordered. UK passenger stock is pretty much unusable outside of the UK due to the more narrow loading gauge. 

Without knowing your customers up front it's hard to determine how many trains would be needed. If a ROSCO would purchase 50 new diesel trains this would probably be fine for a network the size of, say, Chiltern Railways. 

However they would never be able to get this leased to the next operator of the Northern franchise as that operator would require much more trains. From a TOCs point of view its undesirable to have a plethora of different trains in the fleet as it would reduce flexibility while adding to complexity for driver's training, maintenance and planning.

If two ROSCOs would operate with l a "we buy something and you must use it" policy while the 3rd one wouldn't, then TOCs would go to the latter if they need new rolling stock.


----------



## dimlys1994

Video about rebuilding of Farnworth tunnel in Manchester, part of electrification project:


----------



## Nexis

Birmingham New Street Announcements


----------



## dimlys1994

Progress on East West Rail Link:



SteveAWOL said:


> New Oxford Parkway rail building is taking shape + video (From The Oxford Times)
> 
> 
> 
> ENGINEERS yesterday marked the end of construction of the passenger building at Oxford Parkway three months after it began.
> 
> Chiltern Railways managing director Rob Brighouse visited the site in Water Eaton ahead of the start of work to fit out the interior. The new station, which will link Oxford with London Marylebone, is set to be up and running by September.
> 
> Mr Brighouse said: “The team has been working exceptionally hard to reach this significant milestone. We’re getting ever closer to opening Oxford Parkway in September 2015 and it will provide significant economic, social and environmental benefits.”
> 
> The station is part of Chiltern Railways’ £130 million Evergreen Three project to create a rail link between Oxford and London Marylebone via Kidlington, Bicester and High Wycombe. It is part of a larger £290m scheme to re-open the East-West rail link from Reading to Bedford via Oxford, Bicester Town and Milton Keynes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/HughJaeger/status/554600027612803072
Click to expand...


----------



## ElectroSoldier

Some photos of the grand daddy of railway terminus stations.
Liverpool Lime Street.


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## M-NL

Not counting HS1, where the 400m Eurostars reside, what is the maximum length of trains in the UK? I'm under the impression that not only the UK has the smallest loading gauge in Europe, but also very short maximum train lengths, probably caused by limited platform length. In continental Europe trains in the 320m to 400m range aren't uncommon.


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## ElectroSoldier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvTZMBR28z8

I rather none descript video in many ways its just a train driving through a station, however as it says in teh description its 770 meters long and its all up weight was over 2800 metric tons.

Passenger trains are limited by a number of factors, station length, 3rd rail power consumption, fitting onto chord lines...
In general most platforms can take at least a 6 car train, express stations 9-11 depending how important the station is. 13 coaches and up the largest platforms start to struggle


----------



## M-NL

A max of 13 coaches (13x25m + 20m loco = 345m) isn't as bad as I thought, but I suppose the Dutch saying 'the handicap of a head start' is applicable here. Most stations were built ages ago in a time long trains weren't needed. Now longer trains would be nice but platforms can't be extended because of a track layout that has evolved over time.


----------



## ElectroSoldier

M-NL said:


> A max of 13 coaches (13x25m + 20m loco = 345m) isn't as bad as I thought, but I suppose the Dutch saying 'the handicap of a head start' is applicable here. Most stations were built ages ago in a time long trains weren't needed. Now longer trains would be nice but platforms can't be extended because of a track layout that has evolved over time.


Indeed, stations that started as intermediate local stations like Allerton in Liverpool have become larger stations than ever was imagined, in the case of Allerton there is a 4 track layout with an island platform and lineside platforms, so 3 platforms service 4 tracks, there is a bridge at one end of the station and on one of the side platforms there is a junction to the left so that platform is trapped between the bridge and the junction, there is no room to expand but that is exactly what is needed as it forms the main passenger track away from Liverpool.

There are many such instances of this throughout the network, a legacy of being so old, I dont suppose they ever imagined it would become larger and even if they did when it was built there would have been room to move things around, now with building works around the station there is no room there either.


----------



## Richard_P

M-NL said:


> A max of 13 coaches (13x25m + 20m loco = 345m) isn't as bad as I thought, but I suppose the Dutch saying 'the handicap of a head start' is applicable here. Most stations were built ages ago in a time long trains weren't needed. Now longer trains would be nice but platforms can't be extended because of a track layout that has evolved over time.


 You should take some corrections to Your calculations as everything in Britain is smaller than on continent. As a result of that typical mark 3 passenger car is only 23 m long thus 13x23 gives only 299m and that's even exaggerated as WCML Pendolinos up to few years back were only 9 cars (217,5 m) and only recently were extended to 11 cars (265,3 m) and severe platform extensions were needed. You also have to bear in mind that typical UK car is between 20-21 m long so very long 12 car train for Thameslink gives only 240 m of length without any possibility of double deck formations.


----------



## audi2111

Has anyone had a 45min connection between Euston and St. Pancras to catch the Eurostar? The eurostar website is putting a 48min connection but isn't there a passport check etc.?


----------



## Manchester77

M-NL said:


> Not counting HS1, where the 400m Eurostars reside, what is the maximum length of trains in the UK? I'm under the impression that not only the UK has the smallest loading gauge in Europe, but also very short maximum train lengths, probably caused by limited platform length. In continental Europe trains in the 320m to 400m range aren't uncommon.


It will be the Caledonian Sleeper which has to use the former motorail platforms at Euston which are extra long. The full sleeper rake is 16 carriages comprised of some Mark IIs (20 metre coaches) and some Mark III sleeping coaches (23 metre coaches) plus a 90 on front. After that and excluding freight the longest trains will be 12 car networkers (12 23 metre long coaches), intercity stock (2+9 HSTs, 11 car 390s) etc.


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## Suburbanist

Is it possible, on a single daytime journey, to reach every railway station connected to the network in Great Britain island from London on a regular weekday?


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## ElectroSoldier

Suburbanist said:


> Is it possible, on a single daytime journey, to reach every railway station connected to the network in Great Britain island from London on a regular weekday?



No not even close to half of them could be seen in a single 24 hour period. The network of stations is vast and spread out over the country in such a way as to make it impossible even if you travel as fast as the line allows without other trains to cause delays. You might see the majority of Scotrail stations though


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## DaeguDuke

ElectroSoldier said:


> You might see the majority of Scotrail stations though


Had a thought and looked at some train times. Stranraer to Connel Ferry plus Mallaig to Thurso would take about 24hrs (even forgetting that trains don't run 24/7). 346 stations with a route length of about 2,800km. If it were possible to go to every station without doubling back on yourself it'd take about 14hrs on an Intercity 125, but that'd be impossible due to terminal lines, track speed etc.


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## 00Zy99

I think he's asking if you can REACH any station from London in one day. i.e. London-Aberdeen, or London-Anglesey.


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## DaeguDuke

00Zy99 said:


> I think he's asking if you can REACH any station from London in one day. i.e. London-Aberdeen, or London-Anglesey.


Ah, well in that case, unless there is a branch line somewhere with only one train a day you could very easily reach any station from London within 24 hours. Wick to London must be one of the furthest distance-wise and that's only 13.5 hours.


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## 00Zy99

Hmmm.

Leave 8:00 AM, and arrive at 9:30 PM? That's a LONG day's trip, but it's JUST about doable.


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## M-NL

Richard_P said:


> You should take some corrections to Your calculations as everything in Britain is smaller than on continent. As a result of that typical mark 3 passenger car is only 23 m long thus 13x23 gives only 299m


I already thought I did. I already took 25m instead of the 'usual' 26,4m length of a standard continental passenger coach. However this length is subject to change lately as one end of the spectrum more and more EMUs use Jacobs bogies and shorter carriages and at the other end the ICx has 27,9m intermediate coaches.


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## Richard_P

^^ We may say that in UK the same trend is taking shape as IEP /Hitachi Super Express trains feature 26 m long cars although longest formations will be 9 car which gives only 234 m so the length constrains are high and as trains can't be longer or double deck the only solution is to run much more frequent services than on continent.


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## sotonsi

stefeni-ts said:


> They are not converting Southampton - Basingstoke, this is a misunderstanding of this project. the SW mainline through Winchester and Eastleigh will remain as it is. What they are doing is OHLE from Spitfire Junction down the Andover Salisbury line as far as the triangular junction then south down the Romsey line then into the docks, I understand this will be a freight only option to improve goods movement u to the Midlands. As far as I understand it the wires will not go as far as Southampton Central from this Western approach.


The plan is still in flux, and the original plan for Basingstoke - Southampton conversion doesn't yet seem to be ruled out, despite the via (nearly) Salisbury diversion route now being proposed for electrification.


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## Manchester77

dimlys1994 said:


> Extension of existing platforms for 12-car trains and reopening of former Eurostar platforms


The Eurostar platforms will have to open first however the two projects cannot work in tandem. The plan is to open th eurostar platforms for windsor line use and then move all service groups down so that platforms 1-4 + throat there can be rebuilt for metro services to be made 10 cars.


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## stefeni-ts

sotonsi said:


> The plan is still in flux, and the original plan for Basingstoke - Southampton conversion doesn't yet seem to be ruled out, despite the via (nearly) Salisbury diversion route now being proposed for electrification.


I thought they did the bridge works on this route 2 years ago to modify the clearances for the OHLE


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## annecole

thats great...


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## Swede

dimlys1994 said:


> Extension of existing platforms for 12-car trains and reopening of former Eurostar platforms





Manchester77 said:


> The Eurostar platforms will have to open first however the two projects cannot work in tandem. The plan is to open th eurostar platforms for windsor line use and then move all service groups down so that platforms 1-4 + throat there can be rebuilt for metro services to be made 10 cars.


So there's no clarity on what the plans are yet? Sounds like the end state's improved platform capacity is clear, but in what order and how it will look like seems to be unclear. Where are the renders and diagrams showing how the works will proceed and how it will all look afterwards?


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## Manchester77

Swede said:


> So there's no clarity on what the plans are yet? Sounds like the end state's improved platform capacity is clear, but in what order and how it will look like seems to be unclear. Where are the renders and diagrams showing how the works will proceed and how it will all look afterwards?


Well there are but I'm not sure how you expect there to renders of it, do you want things like 455s in the next platform set along as opposed to the metro set of platforms? Network rail don't produce renders for everything it's pretty self explanatory what this is and its connection to HLOS works. It'll take a few more months until the international platforms are all open to windsor lines traffic then they can begin at P1-4


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## Swede

Manchester77 said:


> Well there are but I'm not sure how you expect there to renders of it, do you want things like 455s in the next platform set along as opposed to the metro set of platforms? Network rail don't produce renders for everything it's pretty self explanatory what this is and its connection to HLOS works. It'll take a few more months until the international platforms are all open to windsor lines traffic then they can begin at P1-4


Ah, now I understand. I thought it was part of a bigger change of Waterloo. If it is just about getting the ex-international tracks working as normal domestic tracks then of course there are no renders, no. It would be nice if Network could make animated diagrams showing the planned changes to the track usage, but I have barely seen that for any projects anywhere in the world.


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## M-NL

I assume the international platforms were at 760 mm, standard UK platforms are at 915 mm. Are they raising the platforms or lowering the tracks?


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## Nexis




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## Steve_J_L

M-NL said:


> I assume the international platforms were at 760 mm, standard UK platforms are at 915 mm. Are they raising the platforms or lowering the tracks?


I thought that the pre-HS1 platforms were all built to normal UK height, trains not deploying their continental steps. The international platforms at St Pancras and Ebbsfleet were built to 760mm, trains deploying continental steps, bottom step level with platform. French platforms, e.g. Gare Du Nord, are really low, requiring the continental steps to be deployed, and the platform being even lower than the bottom step. Unless anyone knows otherwise?


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## Robi_damian

A map of rail passenger numbers in the United Kingdom (sans Northern Ireland) shows how skewed rail transport is towards London and the South-East. London and its area of influence probably account for two thirds of all passenger journeys in Great Britain.


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## Sopomon

^^ Do you know how they calculate the patronage for long intercity routes that cross many of those borders?


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## Robi_damian

Sopomon said:


> ^^ Do you know how they calculate the patronage for long intercity routes that cross many of those borders?


Good question. No. I presume they use either boarding or alighting passengers as "units" to avoid double counting.


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## Nexis




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## TedStriker

G&W acquires Freightliner


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## ElectroSoldier

TedStriker said:


> G&W acquires Freightliner


Just another change of which bankers involved.
I cant see much changing for FL, they have a strong position here in the UK.


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## flierfy

Sopomon said:


> Do you know how they calculate the patronage for long intercity routes that cross many of those borders?


I suppose one has attributed every journey to the region where the trip started. This method is relatively easy to execute and leads to a fairly accurate result.


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## Nexis




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## 437.001

^^
Very rare to have filmed a pantograph strike. :uh:


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-east-coast-starts-operation.html?channel=524
> 
> *Virgin Trains East Coast starts operation*
> Monday, March 02, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _VIRGIN Trains East Coast (VTEC) took over operation of long-distance services from London King's Cross to Leeds, northeast England and Scotland on March 1_
> 
> The Inter City Railways (ICR) joint venture of Stagecoach (90%) and Virgin (10%) was awarded an eight-year contract to operate the Inter-City East Coast (ICEC) franchise by the Department for Transport DfT last November.
> 
> Virgin branding has been applied to the existing fleet of HST diesel trains and Intercity 225 electric sets inherited from the previous East Coast franchise, which has been operated by government-owned Directly Operated Railways (DOR) since National Express (NXEC) surrendered its contract to run the route in November 2009. However, most of these trains will be replaced by a fleet of 65 Hitachi Super Express Trains (SETs)being supplied by the Agility Trains consortium, which will enter service from 2018 onwards
> 
> ...


Congratulations Virgin with second rail franchise :cheers: It's impossible to believe that when Branson began his rail services, he recieved negative claims. And see what's now


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## Sopomon

And here's the new livery on the Class 91. Not terrible, not fantastic either. Let's hope that they come up with something good for the Hitachi units.

Source: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/busi...gin-takes-over-east-coast-rail-line-1-7133778


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## MattN

dimlys1994 said:


> It's impossible to believe that when Branson began his rail services, he recieved negative claims.


Having seen one of his early interviews on a VHS at university (it went something like this: when asked how he would improve reliability he said that he would 'incentivise the drivers to go faster') I'm not surprised!


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## ElectroSoldier

I remember when VT took over Inter-City routes on the WCML.
Things improved over time, its better now than it was.


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## Nexis

Are there any plans to electrify the Edinburgh to Aberdeen Line up to Dundee?


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## ElectroSoldier

I doubt it. Same as settle Carlisle and fort William mallaig.
Traffic is so few and far between it would take so long to see a return from the cost of the OHLE.
They will all see wires one day but I don't think we will see it


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## sotonsi

^^ You forgot the key difference - Scotland's in charge, not Britain.

I'm pretty sure that SNP have long term plans to upgrade and electrify the routes to Aberdeen and Inverness.

And with the Scottish budget set to explode with all sorts of bribes for staying part of the Union, especially if the SNP be needed for a Coalition Government, I can see the Aberdeen stuff being firmly on the CP7 (2024-9) to do list, and perhaps even beginning earlier.

There's a good chance that Aberdeen is electrified before Hull.


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## po8crg

From the 2012 strategy: " Long term •Examine how best to improve capacity, reliability and journey times including exploring the value of electrification of the routes southwards from Aberdeen and Inverness."


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ster-electric-services-begin.html?channel=524
> 
> *Liverpool – Manchester electric services begin*
> Thursday, March 05, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _NORTHERN Rail began operating electric services between Manchester and Liverpool on March 5, marking the completion of the second phase of Network Rail's North West electrification programme_
> 
> The first electrically-operated service was the 06.16 Manchester Airport – Liverpool Lime Street. Northern Rail has received two four-car class 319 EMUs formerly used on the cross-London Thameslink network and these are being used to operate two diagrams, although only one of these runs all day.
> 
> Further services will switch to electric traction as more class 319s are released by the delivery of new trains for Thameslink. A total of 20 trains will ultimately be transferred to Northern Rail
> 
> ...


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## ElectroSoldier

dimlys1994 said:


> From Rail Journal:


Good photo that is, nice vantage point of the fast and slow lines.
Looking at that photo and knowing exactly where it is makes me wonder if the press releases use a lot of photos of a train on one line while talking about another.


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## Chris99

Nexis said:


> Are there any plans to electrify the Edinburgh to Aberdeen Line up to Dundee?


The Scottish Government's Strategic Transport Projects Review set out a rolling program of electrification as follows:-

• Phase 1 - Committed improvements as part of the Edinburgh to Glasgow improvements (EGIP) comprising Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk route, Diversion Routes 1 (Haymarket) and 2 (Falkirk Grahamston), and the Cumbernauld route. Also the Dunblane / Alloa route.

• Phase 2 - Electrification of the remaining routes in the Central Belt (Shotts, Whifflet, Paisley Canal, Glasgow North Suburban, East Kilbride and Kilmarnock). 

Phase 3 - Electrification of routes between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee including the Fife Circle; 

• Phase 4 - Electrification from Dunblane to Aberdeen; and 

• Phase 5 – Electrification from Perth to Inverness. 

Of the above schemes Paisley Canal and Whifflet were brought forward and are now wired as is
Cumbernauld.

Edinburgh-Glasgow is currently under construction.

The rolling programme of electrification will cover around 100 single track kilometres per annum, commencing from the completion of EGIP in 2018. As part of this Dunblane /Alloa will be wired by 2018 and Shotts in 2019.

Timescales beyond that are not yet confirmed but based on the rolling program of electrification continuing at the same rate you could expect the wires to reach Dundee around 2026 and Aberdeen around 2030.


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## Nexis

Pretty impressive , will the speed increase on these lines?


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## 00Zy99

I'm reminiscing about various stations closed under Beeching.

There was one station, and I can't remember the name of it for the life of me. It had a large train shed covering much of the below-ground tracks and was approached via tunnel, such that there was barely any sight of trains from the street. There was a large hotel/station building on one side. I THINK it was a through station, but I'm not sure. Can someone help me find this?


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## ElectroSoldier

00Zy99 said:


> I'm reminiscing about various stations closed under Beeching.
> 
> There was one station, and I can't remember the name of it for the life of me. It had a large train shed covering much of the below-ground tracks and was approached via tunnel, such that there was barely any sight of trains from the street. There was a large hotel/station building on one side. I THINK it was a through station, but I'm not sure. Can someone help me find this?


a part of the country might help


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## 00Zy99

ElectroSoldier said:


> a part of the country might help


Central England, I think?

Might have been around Leeds.


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## Chris99

Nexis said:


> Pretty impressive , will the speed increase on these lines?


Due to the better acceleration of the new trains the fastest Edinburgh-Glasgow journey time will be reduced from 50 mins to 42 mins. Capacity on the line will also be increased with 4/8 car EMUs replacing 3/6 car DMUs. All stations on the line will have platform extensions and Glasgow Queen Street will undergo a £100m redevelopment to accommodate the longer trains and an increase in passenger numbers:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/project/egip

There will be journey time reductions on other electrified lines such as Dunblane, Alloa and Shotts but exact time savings haven't been confirmed yet.

Separate from the electrification programme there are plans to reduce journey times and increase capacity on the lines between the Central Belt and Aberdeen and Inverness, and between Inverness and Aberdeen. 

The Aberdeen to Inverness Rail Improvements project aims to improve commuter services, increase frequency and reduce journey time between the two cities from 2h25m to 2h. Phase 1 costing £170m will begin construction soon:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/project/aberdeen-inverness-rail-improvements

The Highland Main Line will also be upgraded to increase capacity and reduce journey times between Inverness and Perth/Glasgow/Edinburgh. Details of the infrastructure works which will be undertaken are awaited but it is expected these will include additional double track sections. The next phase costing £120m will be constructed by 2019:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/project/highland-main-line

There's also the Aberdeen-Central Belt project. This is at an early stage of development but Is likely to involve:
- Recasting of the passenger timetable on the Aberdeen  Dundee  Edinburgh / Glasgow corridors to provide express and stopping services;
- Providing one express train per hour from Aberdeen to Glasgow (two hour fifteen minute journey time);
- Providing one express train per hour from Aberdeen to Edinburgh (two hour journey time); and
- No stops at intermediate settlements for express services (except Dundee).

Separate from all of the above, HSTs will replace DMUs on all intercity routes (except Glasgow -Edinburgh which gets brand new EMUs) from 2018 providing capacity and journey time improvements as well as more comfortable trains than those which currently operate.


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## TedStriker

00Zy99 said:


> I'm reminiscing about various stations closed under Beeching. There was one station, and I can't remember the name of it for the life of me. It had a large train shed covering much of the below-ground tracks and was approached via tunnel, such that there was barely any sight of trains from the street. There was a large hotel/station building on one side. I THINK it was a through station, but I'm not sure. Can someone help me find this?



Nottingham Victoria?


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## 00Zy99

TedStriker said:


> Nottingham Victoria?


I'm pretty sure that's it.

Thanks!!


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## ElectroSoldier

00Zy99 said:


> Central England, I think?
> 
> Might have been around Leeds.


Dont know that area at all sorry


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## Nexis

395017 'Dame Sarah Storey'


395017 'Dame Sarah Storey' by Lewis Smith Photography, on Flickr


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## Nexis

Class 91 In The New Virgin East Coast Livery.
Seen crossing the Royal Border Bridge in Berwick working the 1S13
London King's Cross to Edinburgh


Class 91 In The New Virgin East Coast Livery. by strangequark77, on Flickr


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## Nexis

Is there an automatic announcement on board for this train station?


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## Manchester77

Unfortunately not its a request stop so it doesn't have the standard announcements.


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## Nexis

London Bridge & The Shard 


London Bridge works by unravelled, on Flickr


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...th-london-edinburgh-open-access-proposal.html
> 
> *FirstGroup targets airlines with London – Edinburgh open access proposal*
> 10 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _First Hull Trains service at London King's Cross_
> 
> UK: FirstGroup has applied to the Office of Rail Regulation for track access rights which would enable it to launch an open access passenger service between London King’s Cross, Stevenage, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh from 2018.
> 
> The service of five return trains/day with journey times of 4 h to 4½ h would be designed specifically to encourage travellers to switch from air to rail. FirstGroup says two-thirds of journeys between London and Edinburgh are made by air, and because its proposal ‘specifically targets segments of the market where the rail industry’s share of the market is currently less than 50%, our proposals are not primarily abstractive and will grow the overall rail market’
> 
> ...


----------



## Sopomon

^^

As a regular London-Edinburgh commuter, I'd much prefer that this group was given the green light:

http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/gner/

They're aiming to put Pendolinos on the route and bring the journey time under 4 hours - plus the livery they're looking to use is gorgeous. 
First's bid is essentially the same as the current East Coast route but swapping York for Stevenage and Berwick upon Tweed for Morpeth.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...and-hitachi-sign-scotrail-train-contract.html
> 
> *Abellio and Hitachi sign ScotRail train contract*
> 12 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Hitachi Rail Europe AT200 electric multiple-unit_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Interior of train_
> 
> UK: Hitachi Rail Europe and Abellio formally announced the signing of the previously-announced contract for the supply and maintenance of 70 electric multiple-units for the next ScotRail franchise on March 12.
> 
> The EMUs are being financed by Caledonian Rail Leasing, a special purpose vehicle created by SMBC Leasing. The Scottish government has guaranteed the use of the EMUs on Scotland’s rail network for at least 25 years, at which point it could buy the fleet for a nominal £1.
> 
> The contract for 46 three-car and 24 four-car units is the first order for Hitachi’s AT200 design. The 25 kV 50 Hz EMUs will have 23 m long cars, end gangways, a maximum speed of 160 km/h and a design life of 35 years
> 
> ...





> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-hitachi-iep-trainset-arrives-in-britain.html
> 
> *First Hitachi IEP trainset arrives in Britain*
> 12 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The first pre-series Class 800 trainset for the Intercity Express Programme was unloaded at the port of Southampton’s Queen Elizabeth II Terminal on March 12, watched by guests including Transport Minister Claire Perry and the city’s mayor.
> 
> The five-car electro-diesel trainset left Hitachi’s Kasado factory in Japan on January 7. It was shipped from the port of Kobe on January 22/23, travelling to Britain via the Panama Canal on the Wallenius Wilhelmsen ro-ro ship Tamerlane which arrived in Southampton on March 11
> 
> ...


----------



## Jonesy55

Nexis said:


> Is there an automatic announcement on board for this train station?


I take a train sometimes that goes over that way and when they announce it on board they abbreviate it to Llanfair PG.


----------



## dimlys1994

More news on Waterloo redevelopment, taken from Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-30-capacity-increase-at-london-waterloo.html
> 
> *Consortium to plan 30% capacity increase at London Waterloo*
> 18 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The South West Trains-Network Rail Alliance of train operator SWT and infrastructure manager NR announced on March 18 that it had appointed a consortium of Skanska, Colas Rail, Aecom and Mott MacDonald to plan and undertake a four-year multi-million pound programme to provide a ‘step change’ in capacity at London Waterloo station.
> 
> The appointment of the contractors ‘is an important step forward in our commitment to boost peak time capacity by 30% by 2018’, said Christian Roth, Fleet Director of the South West Trains-Network Rail Alliance. ‘Waterloo is the country's busiest station, with 98 million people using it every year and South West Trains has seen passenger numbers double in 20 years.’
> 
> The contractors are to develop detailed plans which will then be submitted to the Office of Rail Regulation and Department for Transport for approval. The scope will include lengthening platforms 1-4 to enable the operation of 10-car trains on suburban routes, and reopening the former Waterloo International platforms for regular use by commuter services
> 
> ...


----------



## Swede

30% more capacity by 3-4 years from now? That is fast. I guess having those "old" Eurostar platforms help


----------



## dimlys1994

From Construction Enquirer:



> http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2015/03/20/northern-powerhouse-transport-plan-unveiled/
> 
> *Northern Powerhouse transport plan unveiled*
> Friday 20th March 2014, 7:35
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Plans to revolutionise travel in the north, including a multi-billion pound TransNorth rail system and road investments, have been set out in a blueprint to build a Northern Powerhouse_
> 
> The Government today published its Northern transport strategy report to deliver faster rail journeys, road investment, travel cards, better airport routes and building the high-speed HS2 route sooner.
> 
> Network Rail has costed out several rail improvement options to connect the cities of the north, which highlight eye-popping costs for Government.
> 
> New railways connecting Sheffield, Hull, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Newcastle upon Tyne could cost up to £65bn
> 
> ...


----------



## Szablo

Hi there,
I'm doing some academic research (non-profit!) on the competitiveness of rail transport on Milton Keynes - London route. Would you be so kind to fill a short questionnaire for me if you use this route (train or bus)? It takes less than 3 minutes.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1erD4lRGGfFkYdTxOKOIWx3G2DECpBP8FiLh8hmgZCOg/viewform
I'll try to share the results here when it's finished 
Cheers!


----------



## link_road_17/7

I use the train every weekday (and most weekends) between Milton Keynes and London Euston, mostly for commuting to work (SW1). MK is 'lucky' in the fact that rail privatisation mean competitive ticket prices between the different TOCs, as well as the WCML modernisation meaning a 30 minute journey time on the Virgin Pendolino.

Very few people use the coaches between MK and London, as the journey time is considerably longer (1hr+) and the prices uncompetitive (vs. train)


----------



## Szablo

link_road_17/7, thanks for the information, it's very useful to know the opinion of frequent user 

BTW, I've travelled several times on this route and had similar feelings about it. Rail fares are surprisingly competitive on this route. However, I used the coach when I was going further from London and had to change at Victoria. So I guess it may be a good option in such case.


----------



## Fatfield

From BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-32075699



> *Gateshead rail academy officially opens*
> 
> A rail academy, giving students experience of working on the tracks, has officially opened its doors in Gateshead.
> 
> The £5m facility, run by Newcastle College, has indoor and outdoor tracks, overhead lines and signal boxes.
> 
> It is thought to be the first of its kind in the UK, and aims to address a national skills gap, due to an ageing workforce in the rail sector.


----------



## dimlys1994

Official from Network Rail:



> http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/euston-eateries-to-open-this-may
> 
> *Euston eateries to open this May*
> Tuesday 24 Mar 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New food and beverage units at Euston, London’s fourth busiest railway station, will start to open from May 2015, with construction well underway on a £12.5 million project to create more space and offer more choice for passengers and the local community.
> 
> Over 71 million passengers travel through Euston annually, and they will soon enjoy an increased and varied retail and dining offer along with a more user-friendly station layout.
> 
> The Euston Station Balcony Development Scheme will include more than 11,000 sq ft of food and beverage space with a new balcony level opening up the station and providing passengers with an area to relax and eat away from the hustle and bustle of the station concourse
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ake-over-scottish-franchises.html?channel=524
> 
> *New operators take over Scottish franchises*
> Wednesday, April 01, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _MOST of Scotland's passenger services are in the hands of new operators with the transfer of the Scotrail franchise from First to Abellio and the launch of the new Caledonian Sleeper franchise_
> 
> Netherlands Railways (NS) international subsidiary Abellio launched the new Scotrail franchise at Stirling station on April 1, taking over from First Group, which has operated the franchise since 2004.
> 
> Abellio will operate the franchise for a minimum of seven years with an option for a three year extension, which will be decided in 2020. The contract also includes a five-year break clause
> 
> ...


----------



## ElectroSoldier

Hardly news, its been known for months.

Are they using the Class 92s yet?


----------



## TedStriker

ElectroSoldier said:


> Hardly news, its been known for months. Are they using the Class 92s yet?


Certainly some of the four sleeper-train specific GBRF class 92s are already being driven around and I suspect that all four are now in fact ready for their new WCML duties. 

They look rather good as well in the new dark blue livery. This colour scheme reminds me of the former British Rail blue, a much smarter version of it though.


----------



## AlexNL

To celebrate the launch of ScotRail operated by Abellio, Abellio are giving away £ 1 million worth of tickets! Any UK resident can claim up to two off-peak return tickets via the website www.freescotrailtickets.com.



ElectroSoldier said:


> Hardly news, its been known for months.
> 
> Are they using the Class 92s yet?



Yes!










Picture by Karl Reid on Instagram


----------



## ElectroSoldier

Thanks, looks nice in its new paintwork

Any idea where they change to diesel locos for the Mallaig portion?


----------



## dimlys1994

Video of installation of new freight lines at Reading:






And Thameslink works around London Bridge station:


----------



## dimlys1994

^^Also during Easter improvemments are also made at Watford:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Londonist, video about St. Pancras:


----------



## Chris99

The final footbridge of 42 new bridges on the Borders Railway has been installed at Harelaw near Shawfair station:










https://mobile.twitter.com/BordersRailway/status/585862886607740928?p=v


----------



## WingTips

There is a massive re-modelling programme of Manchester Victoria Station happening at the moment,(many folks on this thread I am sure are already aware if it)but just in case here`s the link to this huge project...well worth a look...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=498239&page=267


----------



## nidave

DELETED - Wrong page


----------



## Suburbanist

I have a question: why don't they build a station at this crossing in Warrington to allow transfer between both lines? :dunno:

Are there plans to electrify the line between Manchester, Bolton and the main line to Glasgow?


----------



## ElectroSoldier

Why would you join the WCML to the CLC route to Manchester?
It is a lot of work and bring few benefits.

Yes the route north of Manchester to the WCML will be electrified, if not already done.


----------



## Suburbanist

ElectroSoldier said:


> Why would you join the WCML to the CLC route to Manchester?
> It is a lot of work and bring few benefits.
> 
> Yes the route north of Manchester to the WCML will be electrified, if not already done.


So that people living between Manchester and Warrington can change trains and travel to other secondary stations on the main line without walking a long distance in WArrington?

The transfer in Wigan between the routes is also done on separate stations that look ugly. Why haven't they build proper junctions in Wigan and Warrington? It is not like these are new lines... Did they use to be freight-only in the past?


----------



## ElectroSoldier

Suburbanist said:


> So that people living between Manchester and Warrington can change trains and travel to other secondary stations on the main line without walking a long distance in WArrington?
> 
> The transfer in Wigan between the routes is also done on separate stations that look ugly. Why haven't they build proper junctions in Wigan and Warrington? It is not like these are new lines... Did they use to be freight-only in the past?


Its a 10 minute walk in Warrington, the secondary stations would be served but where would it go to? I mean it would go from Manchester to Crewe or Birmigham via Irlam Birchwood Acton Bridge etc?
Why would you do that incredibly expensive thing to the benefit of so few?
The only long distance between stations is Runcorn and Runcorn East, that is a hellava walk. in fact its a bus or taxi ride.
Wigan is the same.

The reason they are seperate is because they were built separate.
The line that has Warrington Central on it was built by the Cheshire Lines Committee (CLC) which is why the route is still called the Cheshire Lines, it was at one point linked up to what is now the WCML, it was in the form of two junctions, the one on the side of the track that goes towards Manchester joined the up line so trains in going the London could use it (you could take a train from Earlstown or Wigan to Warrington Central direct), while the down line joined the CLC in the direction of Liverpool but only via a siding, there was no intention of building a line that would allow trains to go from Weaver junction (or Acton Bridge station) to the CLC line as it would allow CLC to get freight into its Liverpool docks line faster (the companies were in compertition with each other remember)
.
It was never used for passenger trains because the LNWR built and run the WCML portion with Warrington Bank Quay while the CLC had Warrington Central. After the problems the CLC had with the LNWR on the lines in the Wirral the two companies moved further and further apart.
The companies had agreements to use track but it never went well, the LNWR always made it hard for the CLC to path a train on the route so in the end they kinda stopped trying... there where cases where CLC trains would sit in LNWR passing loops for hours while LNWR trains were given priority.

There was no need to join up the two routes that wasnt why they were built, people in the past were not so lazy as they are today, if you wanted to go to Wigan from Warrington it was possible, as was Crewe, Manchester and Altrincham simply by changing stations.
The same is/was true of Wigan, they are seperate because they were built by two different companies and at the time served different routes, and people didnt seem to mind changing stations as it was seen that they were greatful they could make the journey at all...
You do have to bear in mind just how old the network of railways is and in particular that section of the network, you are talking about some of the oldest routes in the world...

There used to be a low level station at Bank Quay, that line went to Manchester, but it was not on the Warrington Central line, it was on the Garston to Warrington line which you can see today as a line that runs from the Freightliner depot in Garston (the first Garston station was located on the main road that now runs past the depot) out to Warrington along what is the WCML through Ditton leaving the WCML at Ditton east junction and making its way to Bank quay along the line that is still there... that was the route to Manchester from those secondary stations... that same route, the one from Garston also provided a route north to Wigan via Clock face and St Helens.

The CLC was always the outsider, when LMS took over in the grouping they didnt take the CLC over, they remained independent, they were controlled by LMS and LNER (using LNER motive power) thats why the tracks were never joined together even after the grouping. BR took over the CLC when the railways were nationalised.

The whole area has lost about 70-80% of the rail tracks that used to be there, the link up was lost and a new road/houses built where it was (Dalewood close) while the other side has an industrial estate on it where the tracks used to be. it was lost through lack of use and its use was limited because it was built as a case you you must rather than the companies wanting to build a useful route link up.

Wigan is the same in many ways to Warrington. the stations are a lot closer to each other though, but the reason its so ill thought out is because they were built by competing companies offering passengers routes while still giving freight routes.
Its not uncommon, Buxton for instance, had two stations right next to each other, MR (Midland Railway) and the LNWR (London North Western Railway), the trains on the MR route went to Manchester just like the LNWR train did but over a different route. the MR route is still there up to a point, its a freight only route (Buxton to Manchester via Peak Dale), still used to this day because it provides access to the quarys up there. the MR route went under the LNWR viaduct in Buxton and then again it went under it through a tunnel just outside Chapel-en-le-frith station and they had no intention of joining up to eachother, not then and now the tracks are gone. its only DBSr who uses it on a regular basis with DRS using it now and again.

All the tracks are so complicated now because of the way they were built then, every man jack and his dog wanted a railway into Liverpool and by extension Manchester because Liverpool was so lucrative... it was gushing cash as can be seen even today in Liverpool by the buildings, some of it rivals London.

The reason they dont link the lines is because cost over use, there wouldnt be a market for it, and there are already stations there with good prices to go from Manchester to Acton Bridge you go via Crewe, to go from Birchwood to Acton bridge you can go via Warrington Central or Liverpool South Parkway, the ticket prices are set to reflect the route distance over actual distance you want to travel, (Liverpool South Parkway to Acton Bridge is £5.80 while Birchwood to Acton Bridge is £7.10 but Birchwood to Liverpool South Parkway is £5.60) and they know how many people want to use the routes you are talking about because they track how many people buy tickets from one place to another. so they know there is no real worth while market for it.


----------



## dimlys1994

Construction of blacony at Euston station:
https://anonw.wordpress.com/2015/04/18/euston-is-getting-a-balcony/


----------



## Jeff Hawken

Suburbanist said:


> So that people living between Manchester and Warrington can change trains and travel to other secondary stations on the main line without walking a long distance in Warrington?


Following up on the example of Acton Bridge, the station footfall there (total arrivals and departures) based on 2013/4 figures is about 50 people per day, Mondays to Saturdays, no trains on Sundays. 
It's hard enough to justify the time and energy to stop a train there at all, let alone justify any extra infrastructure!


----------



## Bart_LCY

Hatfield railway station, Hertfordshire. Located on East Coast Main Line, 18 miles north of London Kings Cross.

This:










is turning into that. Taken by me today:


----------



## Chris99

Taken by me last week:


----------



## Zero Gravity

When can we expect electrification of the Falkirk Line? On wikipedia it says it will be finished by 2016. However, I rode the train from Edinburgh to Glasgow a month ago and there was no construction whatsoever.
Also I have read about some legal or environmental challenge that could delay the project by 3 years? (can't remember where)

Anyone know what's going on here?


----------



## Chris99

Zero Gravity said:


> When can we expect electrification of the Falkirk Line? On wikipedia it says it will be finished by 2016. However, I rode the train from Edinburgh to Glasgow a month ago and there was no construction whatsoever.
> Also I have read about some legal or environmental challenge that could delay the project by 3 years? (can't remember where)
> 
> Anyone know what's going on here?


Work has started and it's still on track to be energised by December 2016:

http://www.egip.info/


----------



## SteveAWOL

ICYMI...

BBC iPlayer - Nick and Margaret: The Trouble with Our Trains


> Nick Hewer and Margaret Mountford climb on board Britain's trains to find out whether they offer value for money. On the trail of the £8 billion of fares and £4 billion of public money that go into the nation's trains each year, they discover a rail system that is struggling to contend with outdated infrastructure and more passengers than at any time in living memory.
> 
> Twenty years on from privatisation, Nick and Margaret are in for a bumpy ride as they meet irate commuters, polished train operating company bosses and the head of Network Rail. They unearth some mind-boggling bureaucracy and infuriating inefficiency, but also ask if there are signs of hope that the railway may be getting back on track.


----------



## dimlys1994

Another timelapse from Network Rail - rebuilding of Carmuirs Twin Tunnels, part of Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme:


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ast-anglia-franchise-shortlist-announced.html
> 
> *East Anglia franchise shortlist announced*
> 02 Jun 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Three current or former incumbents have been shortlisted to bid for the next East Anglia franchise, which is due to take over from Abellio Greater Anglia in October 2016. Abellio had been awarded a 29-month contract to operate the franchise from February 5 2012, and a further direct award contract in 2014.
> 
> Following an initial prequalification round, the Department for Transport announced on June 2 that three groups had been selected to ‘work with the government to develop their proposals before receiving the invitation to tender in August’. Final bids are expected in December.
> 
> The three shortlisted bidders are:
> 
> Abellio East Anglia, a joint venture between Abellio (60%) and Stagecoach (40%)
> First East Anglia (FirstGroup)
> National Express East Anglia Trains
> 
> ...





> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/view/class-321-emus-to-be-born-again.html
> 
> *Class 321 EMUs to be born again*
> 02 Jun 2015
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Leasing company Eversholt Rail has awarded Wabtec a £60m contract to refurbish its fleet of Class 321 outer-suburban electric multiple-units, under a programme which is designed to provide ‘maintainability, cost effectiveness and the look and feel of a new train’.
> 
> The contract signed on May 28 covers engineering development for the refurbishment programme, and the overhaul of an initial batch of 30 four-car units which are due to return to service between spring 2016 and late 2017. Work is to be undertaken by a dedicated production facility at Wabtec’s Doncaster site
> 
> ...


----------



## TedStriker

2+3 seating plans ought to be outlawed.


----------



## Fatfield

ECML closed due to trespassers wanting to see The Flying Scotsman on its route from Kings Cross to York.

http://news.sky.com/story/1648376/trespassers-stop-flying-scotsman-in-its-tracks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-35653416
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-35649676


----------



## LtBk

I read there are plans to fully privatize passenger rail in the UK. Is it true?


----------



## TedStriker

LtBk said:


> I read there are plans to fully privatize passenger rail in the UK. Is it true?


What do you mean exactly with your question? All British passenger train and freight operations are run by private sector companies already. The only significant part of the British railway system which is in state hands is the railway infrastructure itself, which is overseen by Network Rail.

The internet is awash with rumours of plans to sell off Network Rail, either as one entity or in parts, and there are some senior industry people which say they might support this, but it is not official government policy to do so. 

The situation in Northern Ireland is somewhat different but then I doubt that you had Northern Ireland in mind with your question.


----------



## LtBk

I know, I was referring to the infrastructure.


----------



## 437.001

LtBk said:


> I know, I was referring to the infrastructure.


I'm not sure it would be a good idea to privatize Network Rail.
The former experience was rather negative.


----------



## sotonsi

437.001 said:


> I'm not sure it would be a good idea to privatize Network Rail.
> The former experience was rather negative.


Indeed, it was renationalised.


----------



## Stainless

LtBk said:


> I know, I was referring to the infrastructure.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35785499
Network Rail plans sale of city stations

There has been this announcement. Selling off some of the stations they own. I'm not an accountant, but surely by selling them off they are reducing their assets as well as their debts on the balance sheet?


----------



## DaeguDuke

Yup, but obviously the Tories are only going to sell off the profitably stations.

Less debt, but less income from store rents etc.


----------



## LtBk

Who would they sell it to?


----------



## 00Zy99

LtBk said:


> Who would they sell it to?


I'd love to buy a train station!

If only I had the money...


----------



## cmj

LtBk said:


> Who would they sell it to?


Whoever has given a big donation to the Tory party, for a knock-down price of course,


----------



## TedStriker

Yellow front ends become optional


----------



## Sopomon

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day this would come about!


----------



## dasy2k1

LtBk said:


> Who would they sell it to?


New St would probably be bought by whoever owns grand central 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## PortoNuts

> *Osborne to Earmark Funds for Transport in London, North England*
> 
> *Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne will commit 300 million pounds ($430 million) for transport links between the main population centers of northern England as part of his bid to cut the economic gap between London and the rest of the U.K.*
> 
> *Osborne will use his budget announcement on Wednesday to earmark cash for planning a high-speed rail link between Leeds and Manchester, road improvements in the region and proposals for a Trans-Pennine tunnel, the Treasury said in a statement. *
> 
> *Osborne will also back the development of Crossrail 2, a new rail route across London, setting aside 80 million pounds for the project.*
> 
> "With the difficulties we see in the global economy, we’ve got to make Britain fit for the future," Osborne said in the statement. “Now is the time for us to make the bold decisions and the big investments that will help us to lead the world in infrastructure, and create jobs, push up living standards and boost our productivity for the next generation."
> 
> The investment announcement comes after National Infrastructure Commission Chairman Andrew Adonis called for a rapid start to work on improving transport links in the north of England alongside the development of London’s new rail route, connecting the northeast and southwest of the capital.
> 
> Work to upgrade the 40-mile (65-kilometer) rail link between Manchester and Leeds should be “kick-started” to cut journey times to 40 minutes from 49 minutes by 2022 and then to 30 minutes, Adonis said in a report published on Thursday.
> 
> He also called for extra lanes to be added to the M62 motorway linking the two city regions, the most populous and economically productive in the north.
> 
> ...


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...k-funds-for-transport-in-london-north-england


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## M-NL

Yellow front ends become optional.

The text mentions 'Vehicle owners and operators must ensure sufficiently visibility, which for new and modified vehicles includes fitting headlamps complying with the Technical Specification for Interoperability for Locomotives & Passenger Rolling Stock.' That would mean a switch to the continental triangle shape light arrangement, instead of the current asymmetrical light arrangement, right?


----------



## AlexNL

Not by definition, but the lights should be sufficiently bright enough for them to be seen by trackside workers, passengers and other people who might otherwise not see the train coming.


----------



## Sopomon

Does anyone have an explanation for the asymmetrical lights found on British trains?


----------



## TedStriker

Sopomon said:


> Does anyone have an explanation for the asymmetrical lights found on British trains?


This is a question that I'm always asking myself.

The only locomotive that I've seen in Britain with a symmetrical triangle of front lights switched on is one of the class 66s that were originally built for mainland Europe. 

The class 70s look especially ugly because of the skew-whiff lighting policy that Britain seems to have. 

Answers please. Someone on SSC must know what's what.


----------



## M-NL

Historically British trains only had marker lights, no actual headlights. The idea was that driver visibility with the weak headlights at the time wasn't that much better compared to no head lights at all and because the tracks were fenced there was no need, so they decided not to fit them. The marker lights were only needed for track side people to see the train coming, so they didn't need to be very bright either.
Later headlights were fitted, of which for some reason the left is used at night and the right during the day. Continental trains simply have a high beam/low beam switch, just like a car.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

*IEP Class 800 running under the wires in diesel mode*

Recent activity this month:


----------



## Brenda goats

See progress at Cambridge North Station, currently under construction.


----------



## TedStriker

M-NL said:


> Later headlights were fitted, of which for some reason the left is used at night and the right during the day.


So why dis be?


----------



## Duesey

M-NL said:


> Historically British trains only had marker lights, no actual headlights. The idea was that driver visibility with the weak headlights at the time wasn't that much better compared to no head lights at all and because the tracks were fenced there was no need, so they decided not to fit them. The marker lights were only needed for track side people to see the train coming, so they didn't need to be very bright either.
> Later headlights were fitted, of which for some reason the left is used at night and the right during the day. Continental trains simply have a high beam/low beam switch, just like a car.


It's more complicated than that. The arrangement was not just for trackside crew to see the oncoming trains, but also a form of classification, to let signalmen set the right tracks, so the train would be guided onto the right branch. This was determinted by the placement, the amount of lights etc.

...I think. 

The more I google it, the more confused I get. But my impression is that the rules are simply outdated.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

*Virgin Azuma train debuts*

More Class 800. Note these are not yet cleared to run on electric power, hence the diesel mode running.


----------



## Svartmetall

It's awesome to see so many Japanese trains heading for the UK.


----------



## fez14

Good to see that 140mph could actually happen, now these trains are coming. I know pendolinos can apparently do 145mph and have never understood why there's still a 125 limit


----------



## dasy2k1

M-NL said:


> That would mean a switch to the continental triangle shape light arrangement, instead of the current asymmetrical light arrangement, right?


Not as I understand it.... We already have a triangle of light that meets the requirements for most newer trains we just tend to place the main headlight adjacent to the lower marker lights rather than the top marker light 


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## Richard_P

Svartmetall said:


> It's awesome to see so many Japanese trains heading for the UK.


 What is so awesome about that? For a country which invented railways purchasing of new trains from abroad is already a sign of degradation in that industry. Yes the Japanese built assembly plant in Britain but also bought AnsaldoBreda factory in Italy and additional trains ordered will be build there. In the longer term British plant will most probably be downgraded to service facility and some pilot builds to put "made in Britain" sticker to basically Japanese train assembled in Italy. What is so awesome in letting Japanese companies into Europe while Japan is closed for European builds? And last but not least in what sense Japanese trains should be better than European designs? If Britain doesn't want to integrate with EU why the hell is still in this block and not in EFTA which for Norway and Switzerland gives what according to latest Cameron speech Britain wants. You can’t eat the cake and have the cake, buying trains in Japan instead of for example France You will have to bail out that country so it is twice the loss but hurray for few assembly jobs created in Britain hno:


----------



## Steve_J_L

fez14 said:


> Good to see that 140mph could actually happen, now these trains are coming. I know pendolinos can apparently do 145mph and have never understood why there's still a 125 limit


I thought that it had been decreed (following the ECML trials with a flashing green fifth aspect) that trains travelling faster than 125mph needed in-cab signalling.

As for the maximum speed that a Pendolino can actually achieve, every new type of train in the UK has to be tested at 10% over maximum speed, so presumably a Pendolino has achieved at least 154mph.


----------



## k.k.jetcar

> What is so awesome in letting Japanese companies into Europe while Japan is closed for European builds?


Ah, no. In fact JR East requested foreign builders to submit bids for new DMU trains but so far it seems there are none interested. The fact is, European builders are not interested in selling to the Japanese market because the orders are probably too small to pursue, and they are not willing to commit to quality control and maintenance that is required, as the railways is Japan are the most demanding in the world in terms of reliability in timekeeping and equipment availability. Of course, the Euro builders are all for screaming unfair whenever a Japanese maker is successful in a bid, and commits long term to the market by building a factory and providing long term maintainance so equipment availability is top notch, because it makes them look bad.

Example of a European railway equipment maker that has been successful in Japan:
http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market...cs/international_access/eu-japan/terui_en.pdf


----------



## Richard_P

^^Well, just think twice for which side it is better business - for Japanese Hitachi which delivers whole electric and bi-mode trains in hundreds numbers or to Europeans which were “gracefully” welcomed to deliver diesel power packs to some dozen of cars just to justify that “Japan is open”. Not to mention that regarding reduced number it could be simply cheaper to buy them from outside rather than developing own designs. Would You welcome with the same open arms Chinese trains? Britain has problems in being a team player and this time showed disregard not only to usual victim - the France but also to Germany or Spain.


----------



## 00Zy99

1) Japan just isn't that big of a market.

2) There's a BIG difference between Japan, a democratic country that has spent decades developing trading ties and a reputation for quality, and China, which is still the PRC, and has no such reputation.


----------



## Richard_P

^^First of all, just read about Japan history and its Emperor Shōwa in regard to never trailed WWII war crimes than start to judge communist China where spread of that idea was partially a result of Japanese actions but this is fully OT not worth continuing. BTW just check where your “fully British” taxi car was produced as You may be surprised.

Secondly Japan has very poor trading ties in railway section in oppose to the European countries, well apart from Britain which simply has too expensive workforce to make rolling stock business effective. That is why Alstom closed its factory and for which is unrightfully punished to this time. The pitiful deal with Hitachi won’t change anything, in exchange for few assembly jobs You will simply receive Japanese trains assembled mostly in Italy with made in Britain sticker on it. But on other hand it has bad effect on rail market in Europe with Bombardier effectively the only which still has factory in Britain is reducing its staff.

As for the Japanese rail market, yes in DMU sector it is extremely small and that is why this one was "opened" for international completion, the EMU segment with thousands of ordered cars is closed. And of course right now Japan has pretty good technology available but it isn’t better than European and on other hand China is rapidly developing its own solutions which I also wouldn’t like to see in Europe.


----------



## 00Zy99

I am _fully_ aware of Japan's history, thank you very much. However, they have at least made_ some_ apologies and more importantly THEY DON'T DO IT ANYMORE.

And if I see a British taxi within a thousand miles and not in a museum, I'll be surprised. I'm equally pissed off about certain contracts in Boston and Chicago.

The EMU market has had some (small) openings, but one of the big issues is that the local suppliers there know the unique challenges that Japan faces much better. Siemans did a contract on the Shinkansen several years ago, but they turned out to have an inferior product.


----------



## Svartmetall

Richard_P said:


> What is so awesome about that? For a country which invented railways purchasing of new trains from abroad is already a sign of degradation in that industry. Yes the Japanese built assembly plant in Britain but also bought AnsaldoBreda factory in Italy and additional trains ordered will be build there. In the longer term British plant will most probably be downgraded to service facility and some pilot builds to put "made in Britain" sticker to basically Japanese train assembled in Italy. What is so awesome in letting Japanese companies into Europe while Japan is closed for European builds? And last but not least in what sense Japanese trains should be better than European designs? If Britain doesn't want to integrate with EU why the hell is still in this block and not in EFTA which for Norway and Switzerland gives what according to latest Cameron speech Britain wants. You can’t eat the cake and have the cake, buying trains in Japan instead of for example France You will have to bail out that country so it is twice the loss but hurray for few assembly jobs created in Britain hno:


Sorry, so what would you rather happen? Japanese trains are very good designs and if they can fulfil the brief better than other European companies then so be it. 

I would also warn you to never bring politics like you did with WWII into a thread like this. It's OT and not tolerated in this environment.


----------



## Richard_P

Svartmetall said:


> Sorry, so what would you rather happen? Japanese trains are very good designs and if they can fulfil the brief better than other European companies then so be it.


 There isn't any supremacy of Japanese technology over European, they are fairly equal and that's about it. The only thing that Hitachi got into this deal was someone foolishness that building foreign assembly plant will revive British manufacturing which simply backfired in Bombardier Crewe workshop. So yes bring more Japanese technology and be happy from unemployment benefits.


----------



## Svartmetall

Richard_P said:


> There isn't any supremacy of Japanese technology over European, they are fairly equal and that's about it. The only thing that Hitachi got into this deal was someone foolishness that building foreign assembly plant will revive British manufacturing which simply backfired in Bombardier Crewe workshop. So yes bring more Japanese technology and be happy from unemployment benefits.


I didn't say they were superior, I said they offered the better tender and had good designs (not better). 

Who would you rather build the trains then? Pesa?


----------



## Richard_P

Svartmetall said:


> Who would you rather build the trains then? Pesa?


 There are plenty fish in the sea  Bombardier has its plant in Britain and can't find work to fill it, Siemens is constantly supplying rolling stock to Britain, CAF recently entered it while Alstom is knocking on the door since those were shut with otherwise reasonable closure of UK plant and just recently realised that without establishing new facility won't deliver there anything. It isn't about technical reasons that lead to Hitachi selection nor earlier high prices or lack of competition, it was purely based on “building new jobs in Britain” without any regard to the internal or external consequences. But reality hit soon when Hitachi bought AnsaldoBreda showing that their commitment to jobs in Britain is so sincere as was with Alstom.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

Richard_P said:


> There are plenty fish in the sea  Bombardier[..], Siemens[..], CAF,[..] Alstom


So in what way is it different from Hitachi? It's just another foreign manufacturer with a factory in Britain. None of the others would solve the issue that Britain no longer has any major local manufacturers.


Richard_P said:


> What is so awesome about that? For a country which invented railways purchasing of new trains from abroad [..]. [..] hurray for few assembly jobs created in Britain hno:


----------



## dimlys1994

MarkLong said:


> When the Windsor railway will reopen?


It's not approved yet, but investor hopes that it will be built by 2022. Aplication for approval will be presented by 2018


----------



## MarkLong

dimlys1994 said:


> It's not approved yet, but investor hopes that it will be built by 2022. Aplication for approval will be presented by 2018



I think UK should fast track project process.


----------



## Rational Plan

The Windsor project is just some dream started by a local engineer. It's looking at a gap in the Rail network and trying to justify linking it together rather than any overriding need. 

A link is already provided between the SouthWestern lines and the Great Western lines at Reading, where either you can connect westwards to Basingstoke or back towards London on the Reading line to Staines. The only benefit would be a link between Staines and Slough. Heathrow is already getting a westwards connection to the Great Western just East of Slough and a southern connection to Staines is quite straightforward. 

There is no need for this line, that justifies it's cost.


----------



## sotonsi

^^ I think the line tries and justifies itself by the redevelopment of the two stations in Windsor (that also serve Eton across the River).

local traffic like Datchet and Wraysbury into Slough would be useful if the scheme happened, but not useful enough to justify it.

The scheme's promoters want curves onto the lines heading west from Staines/Slough, as well as a Windsor-Heathrow curve at the junction where Airtrack meets Staines, and have it instead of WRAtH.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...dlands-franchise-competition.html?channel=524
> 
> *MTR pulls out of West Midlands franchise contest*
> Wednesday, June 22, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _MTR Corporation has pulled out of the competition for Britain's West Midlands franchise, leaving just two shortlisted bidders in the running_
> 
> The decision follows MTR's announcement on June 16 that it will form a joint venture with First Group to bid for the new South Western franchise, which starts in June 2017.
> 
> The two remaining bidders for the West Midlands franchise are Govia subsidiary London and West Midlands Railway and West Midlands Trains, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Abellio Transport Group with East Japan Railway Company (JR East) and Mitsui as minority partners
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ew/view/gwr-unveils-hitachi-iep-trainset.html
> 
> *GWR unveils Hitachi IEP trainset*
> 30 Jun 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The first of the Class 800 trainsets which Hitachi is building for operation by Great Western Railway under the Department for Transport’s Intercity Express Programme was officially unveiled on June 30, when it carried guests from Reading to London Paddington on the 175th anniversary of the first train running from Bristol to London.
> 
> Hitachi is supplying GWR with trainsets under two contracts. The first covers 57 trainsets which are to be supplied under the IEP to operate between London and Reading, Oxford, Swindon, Bath, Bristol and South Wales as well as on the North and South Cotswold lines. They are expected to enter passenger service from the summer of 2017
> 
> ...


----------



## TreeNut

Referring to the post directly above; that is one sexy train! I would love to see that on the tracks.


----------



## ramakrishna1984

*New campaign launched to promote £1bn of rail improvements in UK*

A new campaign by the North Wales and Mersey Dee (NW&MD) Rail Task Force has been launched in the UK to ensure £1bn of rail improvements aimed to transform the economy of North Wales, Wirral, and Cheshire regions. As well as creating 70,000 new jobs over 20 years, the new campaign named Growth track 360 is being led by a cross-border alliance of business, political, and public sector leaders.










Cheshire West and Chester Council's leader Samantha Dixon said: “This investment is essential if we are to create opportunities for generations to come." Welsh Government economy and infrastructure secretary Ken Skates said: “Our vision is for a faster, more frequent, integrated transport service, which places the needs of the passenger at its heart.

“Connecting people to jobs and businesses to growth opportunities is a must if the economy of North Wales is to continue to grow and reach its undoubted potential. “The Growth Track 360 proposals set out a vision for rail in the region, which unlocks the economic potential on both sides of the border.”

New developments in the rail sector of different UK regions will help them connect with the planned High Speed Two (HS2) line, which runs between London and the north of England. Work included in the campaign will involve electrification of the line running from Crewe to North Wales, doubling of train frequency operating from the North Wales Coast Line and Wrexham to Manchester through Chester, and investment in new and upgraded rolling stock.

New services between Liverpool and Liverpool Airport to North Wales and Wrexham through Chester (Halton Curve) have also been proposed, as well as the doubling of service frequencies between Wrexham and Liverpool through Deeside and Bidston. Growth track 360 also includes proposals for upgrading facilities and capacity at stations, launching new smart ticketing system, as well as improving services and upgrades to signalling and line speeds.


----------



## Harbornite

ramakrishna1984 said:


> New developments in the rail sector of different UK regions will help them connect with the planned High Speed Two (HS2) line, which runs between London and the north of England. Work included in the campaign will involve electrification of the line running from Crewe to North Wales, doubling of train frequency operating from the North Wales Coast Line and Wrexham to Manchester through Chester, and investment in new and upgraded rolling stock.
> 
> New services between Liverpool and Liverpool Airport to North Wales and Wrexham through Chester (Halton Curve) have also been proposed, as well as the doubling of service frequencies between Wrexham and Liverpool through Deeside and Bidston. Growth track 360 also includes proposals for upgrading facilities and capacity at stations, launching new smart ticketing system, as well as improving services and upgrades to signalling and line speeds.



It would be good if this was linked with the electrification of Crewe to Wolverhampton via Shrewsbury. This would require major resignalling works but would free up a large number of DMUs.


----------



## Harbornite

TreeNut said:


> Referring to the post directly above; that is one sexy train! I would love to see that on the tracks.


There's some footage on youtube of Class 800 units being tested and on demonstration runs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNFcwt4WZdE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmKCWSTmwBU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM6MBwDRdI0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9LYH50i39Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoNV2oo4_os

:cheers:


----------



## MarkLong

All diesel running?


----------



## Harbornite

Indeed they are. Electric testing has taken place on the Old Dalby test track or the Hitachi test track (I think) and will commence on the GWML in a few weeks on the electrified stretch through Didcot.


----------



## 00Zy99

Can they switch modes at speed?


----------



## Harbornite

00Zy99 said:


> Can they switch modes at speed?


Yes, according to wiki it was part of the IEP specification.


----------



## philwho27

00Zy99 said:


> Can they switch modes at speed?



The specification of these mean that they are capable of changing at line speed, but I think it's more likely to happen whilst at stations.


----------



## Harbornite

I thought I'd share these two shots from twitter and the railway centre. They show the GWR liveried Class 800 at London Paddington after its demonstration run. Note the GWR Green HST in the adjacent platform.










https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/748506257468817408










http://www.railway-centre.com/june-2016.html


----------



## Harbornite

*Malcolm liveried Class 90 90024*

From the railway centre:



> Love it or hate it, this is the latest livery to adorn a DB-Cargo Class 90. DB Cargo UK Class 90 electric locomotive No. 90024 is pictured being towed by Class 67 No. 67021 towards Clay Mills, Burton-on-Trent on Friday 24 June 2016 en-route to Crewe as 0Z23, the 16.30 Toton TMD to Crewe IEMD. The Class 90 locomotive, had earlier been released from the paint facility at Toton depot, after receiving a repaint into the striking 'Malcolm' livery. John Tuffs












http://www.railway-centre.com/june-2016.html

Here is the image on Railcolor's article:









http://railcolornews.com/2016/07/13/uk-neat-db-cargo-class-90-in-malcolm-livery/


And here's my shot of it in action at Tamworth:










Last time I saw it, 90024 looked like this










At the time, it was still wearing First Scotrail sleeper livery. DB Class 90s no longer work the Anglo-Scottish sleepers.


----------



## dimlys1994




----------



## MarkLong

Finally...125mph running?


----------



## Harbornite

*Electric test trains run on Great Western Main Line*



MarkLong said:


> Finally...125mph running?


Indeed.




> The first testing of an electric trainset between Reading and Didcot as part of the Great Western electrification programme was undertaken on the mornings of July 16 and 17, in what infrastructure manager Network Rail said was ‘a major milestone for the electrification project’.
> 
> Having arrived from its London depot, the Hitachi Class 800 Intercity Express Train made two test runs from Reading to Didcot at up to 200 km/h to test the newly installed 25 kV 50 Hz overhead electrification equipment. The testing was managed by Network Rail, which is currently electrifying the routes between London Paddington and Bristol, Cardiff, Oxford and Newbury. The Reading – Didcot section has been completed first to serve as a testing ground for the power systems and the trainsets.
> 
> ‘This is a great step forward, and I’d like to pay tribute to the team who have worked very hard to make this happen’, said Mark Langman, Route Managing Director for Network Rail Western. ‘This is the future of rail being built before our eyes and it’s a very exciting time to be involved in this project. This weekend we’ve come a big step closer to providing faster, quieter, and more efficient services to the people of the region who depend on railways.’
> 
> Electric passenger services are now scheduled to begin ‘from 2019’.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...st-train-runs-on-great-western-main-line.html


I managed to get a picture of this Network Rail test train in Birmingham. It was returning from Didcot, where it had been used to test the overhead wires.









https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/27753529754/in/dateposted/


----------



## 00Zy99

Harbornite said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...st-train-runs-on-great-western-main-line.html
> 
> 
> I managed to get a picture of this Network Rail test train in Birmingham. It was returning from Didcot, where it had been used to test the overhead wires.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/27753529754/in/dateposted/


:cheer::dance:

Hooray for GWR!!!

Good news for Crossrail, too. 

Now to look for pics online, especially Didcot.


----------



## dasy2k1

Anyone got any pictures or info about the 25kv overhead conductor rail being installed in the Severn tunnel?


----------



## philwho27

dasy2k1 said:


> Anyone got any pictures or info about the 25kv overhead conductor rail being installed in the Severn tunnel?



http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/07/11/developing-rocs-for-the-uk/


----------



## Jeff Hawken

dasy2k1 said:


> Anyone got any pictures or info about the 25kv overhead conductor rail being installed in the Severn tunnel?


The actual installation in the Severn Tunnel will take place between 12 September and 21 October 2016, during which time the tunnel wll be closed to traffic in both directions.
Traffic will be diverted via Gloucester.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-enter-service-on-coventry-nuneaton-line.html
> 
> *D-Train to enter service on Coventry - Nuneaton line*
> 22 Jul 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: Vivarail announced on July 22 that an agreement had been reached for its prototype Class 230 D-Train diesel multiple-unit produced by rebuilding redundant London Underground vehicles to enter passenger service on the Coventry – Nuneaton line.
> 
> The three-car DMU will be leased to West Midlands Combined Authority, maintained by Vivarail and operated by franchisee London Midland for an initial 12 months starting from later this year
> 
> ...


----------



## MarkLong

Is there any company want to use this second hand train in a large scale?


----------



## 00Zy99

Clearly, since the post above says that its going into service.


----------



## Harbornite

I assume that they will based on in Coventry. I am glad that London Midland are getting some of these because there is a shortage of trains on the Coventry- Nuneaton line. New stations opened at Bermuda Park and Ricoh Arena, but the line is a bit of a backwater, served only by single car class 153s.


----------



## Nexis

*Passenger Trains of Scotland, UK*







*Stunning Train Ride Across Scotland, 2016 (Edinburgh-Inverness)*


----------



## Jeff Hawken

Harbornite said:


> I assume that they will based on in Coventry. I am glad that London Midland are getting some of these because there is a shortage of trains on the Coventry- Nuneaton line. New stations opened at Bermuda Park and Ricoh Arena, but the line is a bit of a backwater, served only by single car class 153s.


But a single car class 153 is perfectly adequate for the number of passengers on that route, except for sporting events or concerts at Ricoh Arena. There is no indication that the actual level of service will improve, simply that this second-hand train will replace the class 153 on a like-for-like basis.


----------



## Harbornite

Also I should correct my original post which suggested that London Midland are getting more than one vivarail units. They are only trialling one.


----------



## Harbornite

*The final livery of DRS Class 88; no. 88003 comes to the InnoTrans*

Say hello to the latest generation of electric locos for Britain: Class 88 no.88002 now has DRS livery which is a revised version of that applied to the 68s.












> Direct Rail Services has released an image showing the livery of the brand new 88002. The colour scheme of the Class 88s will be largely the same as that applied to the operator's Class 68 locomotives, but additionally sports red and blue grid of lines (MLD: reminding us of overhead power lines).
> 
> DRS states on its website: "Testing of 88001 in Velim has concluded. Reporting on the testing Stadler Rail said: During UKDual test campaign in Velim, two main goals have been covered. First, we have focused to perform all test related to homologation purposes by using the capabilities of Velim test center (TSI track, catenary characteristics, braking distances.). As second goal, we have tested and adjusted locomotive performances as traction control in different conditions, diesel engine and electrical power management, by hauling a train of 1500 tonnes and an ER20 locomotive."
> 
> As our first dual locomotive, new functionalities of control software have been validated as dynamic mode changing between electrical operation to diesel operation (and viceversa) and fine tuning of automatic speed control.
> 
> Finally, Velim test site has been used as first scenario to show to DRS the behavior of the locomotive and let to our customer to feedback us with the first impressions about UKDual locomotive."
> 
> DRS also commented about the InnoTrans trade fair in Berlin in September where Stadler and DRS will present a Class 88 locomotive. We now know that the locomotive in question will be 88003.


http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1000001&lang=1


I must admit that the red lines don't really do much for the aesthetics of the loco, but I look forward to seeing these in service. :cheers:

For comparison, here is a class 68.


----------



## Jeff Hawken

Interesting video regading the works in Glasgow Queen Street (High Level) which should re-open for traffic on 08 August 2016.
http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/08/01/video-glasgow-queen-street/


----------



## Chris99

*Glasgow Queen St*



Jeff Hawken said:


> Interesting video regading the works in Glasgow Queen Street (High Level) which should re-open for traffic on 08 August 2016.
> http://www.railengineer.uk/2016/08/01/video-glasgow-queen-street/


Soon they will commence work to extend the concourse and construct a new frontage:-

Currently looks like this:










By 2019 will be transformed into this:


----------



## MarkLong

What do you think of new East Angelina franchise award?


----------



## Jay

Class 68/88 are awesome looking!


----------



## Harbornite

MarkLong said:


> What do you think of new East Angelina franchise award?


It's quite impressive what Abellio are doing. Greater Anglia currently has about 6 classes of train, but these will all be replaced by just two classes (bombardier Aventras for intercity services and Stadler FLIRTs for the rest). Over 1000 new carriages will be built.


----------



## MarkLong

Harbornite said:


> It's quite impressive what Abellio are doing. Greater Anglia currently has about 6 classes of train, but these will all be replaced by just two classes (bombardier Aventras for intercity services and Stadler FLIRTs for the rest). Over 1000 new carriages will be built.



Built actually class 379 are still quiet new, if replaced where did this train goes?


----------



## da_scotty

Do you have a picture of a British FLIRT?


----------



## Harbornite

MarkLong said:


> Built actually class 379 are still quiet new, if replaced where did this train goes?


Good question, they could go anywhere with electric services, I guess that they will go to another TOC in the London area.


----------



## Harbornite

*Stadler and Bombardier to supply trains for Abellio East Anglia franchise*



da_scotty said:


> Do you have a picture of a British FLIRT?


Only an artist's impression. Here is the article.













> UK: The Department for Transport named Abellio as preferred bidder for the new East Anglia franchise on August 10. The franchise is due to start on October 16 2016 and run until October 2025, replacing the current Greater Anglia franchise which is also held by Abellio.
> 
> A £1·4bn investment programme under the new franchise is to include:
> 
> Complete replacement of the current fleet, with the delivery of 1 043 new vehicles between January 2019 and September 2020. Bombardier is to be awarded a £900m contract financed by leasing company Angel Trains for the supply of 665 Aventra electric multiple-unit cars from its Derby plant. Stadler is to enter the UK mainline passenger rolling stock market for the first time with an planned order for 383 Flirt electro-diesel and electric multiple-unit cars.
> Refurbishment of 'many' existing vehicles ahead of the arrival of the new fleet.
> 'Tough new performance targets', with Public Performance Measure scores to be increased from 89·7% to 92·9% 'through a more robust timetable, investment in infrastructure, people and process and through an alliance with Network Rail'.
> At least two trains per weekday each way between London and Norwich with a journey time of 90 min, and two between London and Ipswich in 60 min.
> Free wi-fi on trains and at stations.
> Investment to improve the journey experience, including nearly £60m for stations, with major schemes at Broxbourne, Cambridge, Cheshunt, Harlow and Southend Victoria, digital information screens at all 131 stations, improved ticket offices and more ticket vending machines, nearly 1 800 additional car parking spaces and 4 000 additional cycle parking spaces.
> New ticketing initiatives from October 2017, including offers for part-time workers and those who do not travel every day.
> Automatic 'delay repay' for season and advance purchase tickets.
> £120m of investment in depots, including a new maintenance facility at Manningtree.
> Taking on 20 trainees per year, with a minimum of 30 apprenticeships by 2019.
> 
> 
> DfT said the franchisee would make premium payments worth around £3·7bn over the nine-year period.
> 
> The franchise is expected to carry more than 97 million passenger-journeys/year. The number of seats on services arriving at London Liverpool Street station in the morning peak is to be increased by 55% to 91 000, and across the franchise there will be 1 144 additional weekday services, an increase of 13%.
> 
> Dominic Booth, Managing Director of the Abellio UK subsidiary of the Dutch national passenger operator NS, said the company was 'pleased to become preferred bidder to deliver a transformation in rail services across the region'. This would 'enable us to build on the successes of the two short East Anglian franchises we have run since 2012, and we commend the DfT in running a transparent and rigorous procurement process.'
> 
> He said the new franchise would 'greatly improve our customers' experience with faster and more reliable journeys on new trains with higher frequencies and reduced journey times, to support the socio-economic well-being of East Anglia, one of the country's most successful and fastest growing areas.'
> 
> Bombardier Transportation's UK Commercial Director, Des McKeon, said the rolling stock order was 'a great endorsement of Bombardier's next-generation Aventra train family, which offers maximum flexibility, to serve many different market requirements from metro to inter-city.' Secretary of State for Transport Chris Grayling said Abellio's decision to order rolling stock from Bombardier would 'ensure our train building industry in Derby remains strong'.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/stadler-and-bombardier-to-supply-trains-for-abellio-east-anglia-franchise.html[/IMG]


----------



## MarkLong

How the Norwich in 90 service will be implemented?


----------



## Harbornite

MarkLong said:


> How the Norwich in 90 service will be implemented?


Good question, probably through track improvements (I'm not sure of the exact ones) and th new FLIRTs will have better accelerstion and shorter dwell times than the mark 3 coaches that currently work with class 90s on the route.


----------



## MarkLong

Harbornite said:


> Good question, probably through track improvements (I'm not sure of the exact ones) and th new FLIRTs will have better accelerstion and shorter dwell times than the mark 3 coaches that currently work with class 90s on the route.



But NR do not have big scale improvement plan for GEWL now...


----------



## Jeff Hawken

The biggest single time saving will be to omit all intermediate stops. Previously there used to be a single Norwich to London journey in 95 minutes, with 1 stop at Ipswich. So if you knock out the Ipswich stop, you would be close to 90 minutes. The remainder comes from improving the infrastructure to enable 110mph running, which will involve the closure of some level crossings.
Given the high level of demand from intermediate stations, and the severe capacity constraints particularly closer to London, it doesn't make much sense to offer anything other than a token "Norwich in 90" service, hence the specification that it is only 2 trains per day that achieve this particular journey time.


----------



## Harbornite

MarkLong said:


> But NR do not have big scale improvement plan for GEWL now...


Indeed, hence why small scale infrastructure improvements will be needed.


----------



## nidave

Video of the SWT Class 707
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtHBcSOu1nM


----------



## jonasry

Seems that no one have posted images of the new carriages for the Caledonian Sleeper, between London and Edinburgh, Inverness and Fort William that is to be introduced in 2018. These are interior photos of the sleeper units and restaurant. Flat beds and reclining seats will also be added.

Here's a longer interview with the train manager from Serco, detailing the future of services (and avoiding questions about Sercos murky businesses abroad): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnJ5oSusa4A




























Sources: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...edonian-sleeper-fleet-interiors-unveiled.html and https://www.businesstraveller.com/news/2016/06/30/caledonian-sleeper-unveils-prototype-cabins/


----------



## Harbornite

*2016-08-25 - [FR] Thameslink 700018 transferred to the UK*












> Another week, another new Thameslink Desiro City on transfer. On August 23, Europorte 4002 brought the brand new 700018 to Calais. It was delivered to the UK a day later.
> 
> (Nicolas Beyaert)


http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000001&lang=en&id=9181&action=shownews#.V782XpgrLIV


----------



## Ashtonian

Harbornite said:


> http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000001&lang=en&id=9181&action=shownews#.V782XpgrLIV


That's the way to transport trains and trams, not on a lorry!


----------



## doc7austin

Here are some photo and video impressions from the famous Forth Bridge in Scotland, just 9 miles West of Edinburgh.

We were travelling on the Abellio Scotrail Regional Trains between Edinburgh Waverly to North Queensferry and back and forth, while crossing the Forth Rail Bridge over the Firth of Forth several times.
The Bridge is located is located right between Dalmeny and North Queensferry railway station.
The Forth Bridge is a Cantilever Bridge Span, which is 8,094 feet (2,467 m) long and was opened in 1890.
The Forth Rail Bridge is an UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Here is the video:








Sunny impressions from Edinburgh Waverly Railway Station:





















Holyroad Park:












At Calton Hill:





















Station platforms:






























Class 170 Turbostar with the Scott Monument in the background:





















Taking a glimpse at Scottish National Gallery with the tracks underneath:












From the other perspective:





















The 13:40 service to Glenrothes will cross the Forth Bridge:












Class 158 Express Sprinter will bring us to the Forth Bridge:












On the Abellio ScotRail train:






























Looking East (North Sea) from the Forth Bridge:
















































Looking West (River Forth) from the Forth Bridge:

























































North Queensferry railway station just North of the Forth Bridge:





















The Turbostar at North Queensferry railway station:






























Catching the Belmond Royal Scotsman luxury train by coincidence:












Looking South at both the Forth Rail Bridge and Forth Road Bridge:












At Dalmeny just South of the Forth Bridge:






























Getting back to Edinburgh Waverly side-by-side with a Diesel HST by Virgin East Coast:












British Rail Class 91 (Intercity 225) electric train from Virgin East Coast Train:







































Here is the video again:






Enjoy!


----------



## Harbornite

*UK railway news*

Some recent pics from the UK...


GWR's Electric train services between Hayes and London Paddington should have begun by now, using Class 387 electrostars. This picture shows a test run on 30th August 2016.











Enough about new British railway vehicles, here's some news about 43002, the BR intercity liveried HST power car. :cheers:












> 07-09-16. After spending more than a month receiving attention at Laira depot, celebrity power car No. 43002 carrying yellow and blue livery emerged for a test run on 7 September 2016. Operating with sister power car No. 43010, the pair formed train 0Z77 the 13.32 Laira to Laira via Newton Abbot, captured passing Totnes on the return run. Hopefully No. 43002 will soon return to passenger service. Nathan Williamson





http://www.railway-centre.com/september-2016.html


----------



## Sopomon

They look so silly coupled together like that!


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## dasy2k1

I think 43002 should remain in that livery until it's replaced by a 800 and then transfer to the GCR(N) to run in formation with 41001 ideally with some matching mk3s so you end up with a set that is half prototype and half production


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## doc7austin

*Caledonian Sleeper Inverness - London Euston*

Inverness - London Euston in a Sleeper Cabin on the Caledonian Sleeper Train:

The Caledonian Sleeper train departs Inverness at 20h44 and arrives 11 hours later at 07h47 in London Euston.
Serco runs the the Caledonian Sleeper train. 
Only recently Serco has been awarded the franchise by the Scottish Government.
On its way to London Euston the train calls at Aviemore, Perth, Edinburgh Waverley, Crewe and Preston. 
The train travels on the Highland Main Line between Inverness and Perth and on the West Coast Mainline between Carstairs and London. 
That Caledonian Sleeper train carries through cars from Fort William and Aberdeen between Edinburgh and London Euston.
Shunting action at Edinburgh Waverley to attach these through cars happens between 1am and 2am at night.


Here is the comprehensive video of this trip from Inverness to London on that sleeper train:







Inverness Railway Station:












Departure board with the Caledonian Sleeper train to London Euston:












Caledonian Sleeper train at the rail platform in Inverness:






























A GBRF Class 66 (66705) hauling the train between Inverness and Edinburgh Waverley:





















Doors from the inside can only be opened, by lowering the window and pushing the outside handle of the door:












Sleeper car aisle:












First Class sleeper cabin:





















Standard Class sleeper cabin:






























Amenity kit for sleeping car passengers:












Male and female toilet in each car:












Aviemore on the Highland Main Line:












Falkirk:












Shunting action at Edinburgh Waverley station (our train is merged with the through cars from Aberdeen and Fort William):






























Through cars Fort William - London Euston at Edinburgh Waverley:












One hour before London:












West Coast Mainline around Watford Junction:












Near Chalk Farm:












London Euston in the back:












Sleeper cabin at Euston:












The Caledonian sleeper train from Glasgow/Edinburgh on the other platform:












Our train at the platform at London Euston:






























An electric Class 90 (90044) locomotive hauled the train from Edinburgh Waverley to London Euston:












London Euston:





















Here again is the video from the trip:








Enjoy!


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## Suburbanist

Why don't this train travel through the ECML? Makes much more sense from a routing perspective :dunno:


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## sotonsi

Because Euston is the station with the long platforms, not Kings Cross, and it's easier to reverse at Edinburgh when merging trains and changing to an electric loco than go around the houses in London at rush-hour (though they do do that from time to time).

Also Edinburgh - London is pretty much the same distance via either route (393 mile via the East Coast, ~399 miles via the West Coast) which seems counter-intuitive, but Edinburgh is west of Liverpool.


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## AlexNL

Last year, flooding caused the WCML to be closed north of Preston. The Caledonian sleeper was diverted over the ECML and used Kings Cross instead of Euston.


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## sotonsi

AlexNL said:


> Last year, flooding caused the WCML to be closed north of Preston. The Caledonian sleeper was diverted over the ECML and used Kings Cross instead of Euston.


And lost the Fort William portion and some more to fit in. It was also a massive economic problem due to that lack of capacity/destinations and won't happen again unless Euston is closed.

Normally an ECML diversion would use Euston: reversing somewhere like Wembley, and using a chord between the Primrose Hill route and the ECML just north of Kings Cross.


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## 00Zy99

Incredibly, it seems there are NO connections from the east into Euston. All the connections go the wrong way! Does anyone know if this always was/will be the case?

The first hypothetical route out of London running from ECML to WCML seems to run:

Peterborough-King's Cliffe-Caldecott-Weston by Welland-Market Harborough-Great Oxenden-Brixworth-Northampton


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## Ashtonian

doc7austin said:


> Inverness - London Euston in a Sleeper Cabin on the Caledonian Sleeper Train:
> 
> The Caledonian Sleeper train departs Inverness at 20h44 and arrives 11 hours later at 07h47 in London Euston.
> Serco runs the the Caledonian Sleeper train.
> Only recently Serco has been awarded the franchise by the Scottish Government.
> On its way to London Euston the train calls at Aviemore, Perth, Edinburgh Waverley, Crewe and Preston.
> The train travels on the Highland Main Line between Inverness and Perth and on the West Coast Mainline between Carstairs and London.
> That Caledonian Sleeper train carries through cars from Fort William and Aberdeen between Edinburgh and London Euston.
> Shunting action at Edinburgh Waverley to attach these through cars happens between 1am and 2am at night.


Some great work there doc Austen.

Some years ago (1990).... the sleeper to Fort William used to call in a Glasgow Central for seating passengers to join at around 0430. The electric loco at the front was decoupled and a diesel loco was added to the other end. The train left Glasgow central and I think it took a tour of the south side before passing Springburn and joining the route towards all the West Highland line stops.

I was in semi-somnous state at the time and would be grateful for anyone to give me the exact route taken by the train though the Glasgow suburbs. Wouldn't it have been more simpler for the sleeper to used Glasgow Central low level station?


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## redstarcastles

158 799 Manchester Piccadilly 22 August 2016


Signage at Layton 22 August 2016
Network Northwest lives on. NNW was set up in 1989 as an attempt to create a unified network for the North West similar to the more famous Network South East. It didn't last long and it is amazing with all the rebranding of the railways of the north that a small piece exists here.


142 053 Layton 22 August 2016


57 311 Preston 22 August 2016


319 368 Preston 22 August 2016


507 017 Liverpool Lime St 22 August 2016


508 124 Liverpool Central 22 August 2016


319 375 Liverpool South Parkway 22 August 2016


156 498 Manchester Oxford Road 22 August 2016


142 001 Manchester Victoria 22 August 2016


185 108 Manchester Piccadilly 22 August 2016


185 104 Manchester Piccadilly 22 August 2016


66 513 Manchester Piccadilly 22 August 2016


142 042 Manchester Airport 22 August 2016

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Manchester-and-North-West/


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## suasion

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Pacersicard: I had the misfortune to be on one the other day. Ive never seen anything like it; the exterior is cherry rivets like some sort of a cheap caravan, the doors are like those of a bus and the ride quality felt like I was on a jointed line from the 70's only without the click clack.

I simply don't understand why British rolling stock is all so antiquated given how expensive train tickets are. I was on a Virgin East Coast Intercity with slam doors , I'm open to correction but they looked like Mk IIIs; Mk IIIs in Ireland :ancient10 years retired, if you ignore the hotel train) had electric doors before 1988. 
And paper reservations cards????? No wonder tickets are so expensive having to individually tag each seat before every journey.
I'm so not used to seeing open windows or flappy toilets (with the exception of Holland :storm. Has nobody heard of air-con?? Who still wants to work on train lines covered in human faeces?


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## Jeff Hawken

Ashtonian said:


> Some great work there doc Austen.
> 
> Some years ago (1990).... the sleeper to Fort William used to call in a Glasgow Central for seating passengers to join at around 0430. The electric loco at the front was decoupled and a diesel loco was added to the other end. The train left Glasgow central and I think it took a tour of the south side before passing Springburn and joining the route towards all the West Highland line stops.
> 
> I was in semi-somnous state at the time and would be grateful for anyone to give me the exact route taken by the train though the Glasgow suburbs. Wouldn't it have been more simpler for the sleeper to used Glasgow Central low level station?


I travelled on the southbound Fort William portion on 20/09/90 and recorded the route as: Dumbarton Central, Dalmuir, Partick, Glasgow Central Low Level (non-stop), Rutherglen North - West curve, Glasgow Central. After shunting off the seating coaches, the sleepers ran forward to Carstairs, and joined another portion there to continue to Euston. 
There is a prohibition on diesel traction drawing power through Glasgow Central Low Level, as the diesel fumes set off the fire alarms, causing the station to be evacuated. So the Fort William sleeper had to coast gently through the Low Level platforms without drawing power.
As for the northbound portion, I think that for a while it ran combined with the Stranraer service, so ran combined to Glasgow Central from Euston and split there. I'm uncertain as to whether that was the case in 1990 or not.


----------



## Jeff Hawken

00Zy99 said:


> Incredibly, it seems there are NO connections from the east into Euston. All the connections go the wrong way! Does anyone know if this always was/will be the case?
> 
> The first hypothetical route out of London running from ECML to WCML seems to run:
> 
> Peterborough-King's Cliffe-Caldecott-Weston by Welland-Market Harborough-Great Oxenden-Brixworth-Northampton


The Bedford to Bletchley line gives a south-facing connection from the East towards Euston.


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## 00Zy99

Oh. I hadn't noticed. And its even mostly double-track too. I have a book from the late '90s and it seemed to imply that the line was mostly single track. Maybe they'll re-double the rest of the line as part of the new Varsity project.


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## Harbornite

suasion said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Pacersicard: I had the misfortune to be on one the other day. Ive never seen anything like it; the exterior is cherry rivets like some sort of a cheap caravan, the doors are like those of a bus and the ride quality felt like I was on a jointed line from the 70's only without the click clack.


Pacers are based off bus designs, the Class 142s are the worst of the bunch and basically consist of Leyland national bus bodies onto BR high speed freight wagon chassis.



> I simply don't understand why British rolling stock is all so antiquated given how expensive train tickets are. I was on a Virgin East Coast Intercity with slam doors , I'm open to correction but they looked like Mk IIIs; Mk IIIs in Ireland :ancient10 years retired, if you ignore the hotel train) had electric doors before 1988.


Not all British stock is antiquated, much of it is younger than 18. Yes there are still mark 3s in use but Chiltern modified theirs to remove the slam doors and Virgin Trains East Coast are replacing their HSTs with Class 800s and 801s at the end of this decade.



> And paper reservations cards????? No wonder tickets are so expensive having to individually tag each seat before every journey.


This won't cost much and some trains have e-reservation cards, such as the Voyagers.



> I'm so not used to seeing open windows or flappy toilets (with the exception of Holland :storm. Has nobody heard of air-con?? Who still wants to work on train lines covered in human faeces?



Not all trains in the UK have hopper windows, some actually have aircon. Regarding the toilets, train companies will now have to fit retention tanks to trains and old stock is being withdrawn so the problem will be reduced.


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## po8crg

suasion said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Pacersicard: I had the misfortune to be on one the other day. Ive never seen anything like it; the exterior is cherry rivets like some sort of a cheap caravan, the doors are like those of a bus and the ride quality felt like I was on a jointed line from the 70's only without the click clack.
> 
> I simply don't understand why British rolling stock is all so antiquated given how expensive train tickets are. I was on a Virgin East Coast Intercity with slam doors , I'm open to correction but they looked like Mk IIIs; Mk IIIs in Ireland :ancient10 years retired, if you ignore the hotel train) had electric doors before 1988.
> And paper reservations cards????? No wonder tickets are so expensive having to individually tag each seat before every journey.
> I'm so not used to seeing open windows or flappy toilets (with the exception of Holland :storm. Has nobody heard of air-con?? Who still wants to work on train lines covered in human faeces?


As a result of privatisation, there was no new domestic rolling stock in the UK between 1993 (class 166) and 1998 (class 168), and not much until past 2000.

The result is that the oldest rolling stock in the UK is currently 1980s rather than 1990s, and _because it's due to be replaced_ it's not being upgraded.

Mk IIIs are still in use on ECML, on GWML, and on GEML. On all three, there are trains on order or under construction to replace them. Mk IVs on ECML the same. A few Mk IIIs will remain in use after that - on Chilterns and on ScotRail and possibly in Wales, East Midlands and Cross Country - but they will all be upgraded to have retention toilets, at least one disabled-accessible toilet per train, and powered doors; they're required to do so by disability regulations.

Pacers will all disappear by 2020 too, for the same reason.

All new trains have aircon, and have for years - but there are still lots of 1980s trains running about at present.

By 2020, there will be some Sprinters, mostly on secondary routes - just about everywhere bar the London area - and there will be some older trains on suburban routes in South London (e.g. 455s, Networkers) and around Glasgow (318s, 320s) and there will be 319s on various non-London commuter routes; just about everything else will be relatively modern stock.

That's not to say that every new train is great (the Voyagers in particular get a lot of complaints), but the gap in the nineties means that the oldest stock is 30-40 years old instead of 20-30 at the moment, and it's very noticeable.


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## sotonsi

po8crg said:


> The result is that the oldest rolling stock in the UK is currently 1980s rather than 1990s


Cough cough cough










Pacers, when they came in, saved many lines from closure in the end days of BR. Obviously they are way past their use-by date, and the rail boom that privatisation caused means that they would be inadequate for the services even if they weren't 30+ years old. But without them the routes they serve could have been closed in the early 90s recession.

Electrification and cascades should hopefully get rid of them.


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## Ashtonian

Nice photo of the LU train.



sotonsi said:


> and the rail boom that privatisation caused means


I thought the boom happened in spite of the privatisation.


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## stefeni-ts

Ashtonian said:


> Nice photo of the LU train.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the boom happened in spite of the privatisation.


 Ex LU Train, that is the current SWT stock on the IOW(1938 Stock - though the island batch (ex Piccadilly line) were made in 1943)


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## Richard_P

sotonsi said:


> Cough cough cough
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


 And most probably will be replaced by LRVs in near future  British rolling stock by its dimensions and some other specific features as inter car gangways resulting in dull fronts may look old but it most certainly isn't outdated. Yes the Pacers are a pain in the butt and most certainly I am terrified when some which weren’t forced to use them proposes its overhaul and life extension :nuts: But in other case it’s pretty acceptable. The Southern network withdraw last slam door stock in 2005 while their remaining units as 1970/80-ties 313 or 455 stock features for example modern air suspension with interior replaced only outdated part is traction equipment. So there isn't much to be ashamed and most certainly there can be found many countries which at that time produced much worse rolling stock which terrifies passengers up to this day. In some sense older stock as for example 1990-ties series 465 I found more comfortable than newer rolling stock (better sound proofed and more comfortable suspension) which was lost when stiffer economy rules took the lead pushing passengers needs on secondary positions.


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## Jeff Hawken

00Zy99 said:


> Oh. I hadn't noticed. And its even mostly double-track too. I have a book from the late '90s and it seemed to imply that the line was mostly single track. Maybe they'll re-double the rest of the line as part of the new Varsity project.


This afternoon / evening, there is a football excursion running from London Euston to Leicester and return, using the link I described. It is quite rare to have a long-distance passenger service using this route, for the moment at least. Schedules below:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10928/2016/09/20/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10929/2016/09/20/advanced


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## 00Zy99

I'm currently following the Varsity Line and its rebirth, as attached to the GC.


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## Harbornite

Railcolor have uploaded some pics of 88003 at Innotrans in Berlin.




















http://railcolornews.com/2016/09/19/innotrans-2016/


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## Harbornite

I don't recall hearing about this news. Either way, I'm glad that CAF are going ahead with this.












> UK: Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF has announced more details of its plans to open a UK production plant, following a meeting between company Chairman Andrés Arizkorreta and Secretary of State for Transport Chris Grayling.
> 
> ‘We have looked at more than 100 locations in Wales, England and Scotland and are now working on detailed assessment of costs, design and construction timetables’, Arizkorreta said on September 12. ‘We will make a decision on the site location within the next few weeks and plan to have the new plant up and running by spring 2018.’
> 
> CAF is seeking a rail-connected site where it can construct a 15 000 m2 main building with an additional 10 000 m2 for stabling. The plant would be used to assemble, test and commission new vehicles, as well as subassemblies such as electrical and pneumatic equipment and interior furnishings.
> 
> Arizkorreta said CAF is committed to building up its presence in the UK, and there must be the scope to double the initial size of the facility to enable the company to undertake future manufacturing projects as well as maintenance and servicing activities.
> 
> CAF expects to initially recruit more than 200 staff through its CAF Rail UK subsidiary. It envisages that its supply chain would be ‘an active partner in the development of the plant’, and support the creation of further jobs.
> 
> In January Eversholt Rail Group and Arriva Rail North awarded CAF a €740m contract to supply 31 three-car and 12 four-car Civity electric multiple-units and 25 two-car and 30 three-car DMUs for use on the Northern franchise. This was followed in May by contracts from Eversholt and Beacon Rail to supply 12 five-car EMUs and 66 push-pull coaches for FirstGroup’s TransPennine Express franchise, with a separate €310m agreement covering technical support and spare parts management until 2023.
> 
> CAF is also currently manufacturing 75 cars for Serco’s Caledonian Sleeper service under a €200m contract, and has been shortlisted for a contract to supply around 50 EMUs for the Merseyrail network.


http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/busi ... -2018.html


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## Harbornite

*The last GWR Weymouth Wizard?*












> 14-09-16. The final HST operated 2016 "Weymouth Wizard" ran from Bristol Temple Meads to Weymouth and return on 10 September 2016. The current thinking is that GWR HSTs will no longer do this summer Saturday trip in future, due to a combination of low passenger loadings and the loss of a number of HST sets when IEPs come on stream. The only HST then to visit Weymouth will likely be the NMT and possibly an occasional charter. By chance or by design, celebrity powercar No. 43002 Sir Kenneth Grange put in an appearance on the final train, It is seen waiting to depart with train 1V72, the 17.28 to Bristol Temple Meads. Mark V. Pike


http://www.railway-centre.com/september-2016.html


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## MarkLong

Where the new CAF plant would located ?


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## TedStriker

^^

Gibraltar?


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ectly-awarded-new-cross-country-contract.html
> 
> *Arriva directly awarded new Cross Country contract*
> 29 Sep 2016
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The Department for Transport announced on September 29 that incumbent Arriva CrossCountry had been directly awarded a new contract to operate the Cross Country franchise.
> 
> The most geographically extensive franchise in the UK covers a 2 400 route-km network of long-distance passenger services serving more than 100 stations. Arriva originally won the franchise in 2007
> 
> ...


----------



## Harbornite

> 125 Group is delighted to announce that our Honorary President Sir Kenneth Grange, distinguished industrial designer of the High Speed Train nosecone, will be VIP guest at a special public ceremony at York National Railway Museum on Sunday 2nd October to celebrate the 40th Anniversary of the introduction of the Inter-City 125 High Speed Train on British Rail back in 1976.
> 
> Sir Kenneth will be joined by his namesake original Inter-City 125 liveried power car 43002 plus on show for the first time will be 43185 unveiled in INTERCITY Swallow livery. The power cars will be on display at the NRM for the whole day, the celebration event will commence at 12:30pm until 3pm, where the public will be able to learn about the history of the HST and have a chance to hear first-hand Sir Kenneth’s experiences when designing what is widely considered the most successful British train ever. Entry to York NRM is free, more details HERE.
> 
> 125 Group is very pleased to contribute to this year’s HST40 events, including assisting GWR with livery diagrams for both power cars, sponsoring the 43002 ‘Sir Kenneth Grange’ nameplates and sourcing the pair of original HST steel swallows which have been fitted to 43185, look out for more exciting HST40 news over the weekend. Official HST40 merchandise including stylish ’40YEARS’ badges, as worn by 43002 and friends, are available to buy on the 125 Group website HERE, with all proceeds going towards our preservation efforts.
> 
> 43185 at Paddington 16th June 1995 ©125 Group
> Great Western Railway’s 43002 and 43185 will be making the special trip from the West Country to York for the event. They are expected to run back to back, under their own power, departing from Plymouth Laira depot early on Friday with schedule 0242 Laira to York NRM via Exeter St.Davids, Bridgwater, Bristol Temple Meads 05/19, Cheltenham Spa 06/18, Bromsgrove, Bordesley Jn, Tamworth, Derby 0858-0929, Chesterfield, Beighton Jn, Swinton 10/52, Pontefract Baghill, Milford 1121-1155, York station 12/20, arriving at York NRM at 1233. Full live schedule courtesy of Realtime Trains here: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R41173/2016/09/30/advanced
> 
> The power cars are expected to return from York back to GWR territory departing late Sunday evening. We will amend this page with more details of schedules once known. Please be aware we can not guarantee this information which can change at any time for operational reasons.
> 
> Share this:


www.125group.org.uk


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## cmj

According to that link arrived into York nearly 2 hours early.


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-east-anglia-order-for-stadler-trainsets.html
> 
> *Pension funds back Abellio East Anglia order for Stadler trainsets*
> 05 Oct 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> UK: Contracts worth more than £600m for Stadler to supply 378 multiple-unit cars for the next East Anglia franchise were signed by Abellio UK and leasing company Rock Rail on October 5.
> 
> In conjunction with a £900m order for 665 Bombardier EMU cars which was signed with Angel Trains on September 30, this finalises what Abellio UK Managing Director Dominic Booth said was ‘the largest-ever privately-funded train procurement in the UK’. The 1 043 vehicles are scheduled to enter service between spring 2019 and autumn 2020, completely replacing the fleet used under the current Greater Anglia franchise
> 
> ...


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## Harbornite

cmj said:


> According to that link arrived into York nearly 2 hours early.


Here's 43002 and 43185 at Kings Norton...


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## purple_cat

Harbornite said:


> I don't recall hearing about this news. Either way, I'm glad that CAF are going ahead with this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/busi ... -2018.html


I posted this back in March 2016;

I thought the Pacers were being replaced as part of the following order;

BRITISH rolling stock leasing company Eversholt Rail announced on January 22 that it has signed contracts with Arriva Rail North and CAF to finance and procure 281 regional multiple unit vehicles for the new nine-year Northern franchise, which starts in April.

The £490m order comprises 31 three-car and 12 four-car EMUs together with 25 two-car and 30 three-car DMUs, all of which are due to enter service by December 2018. The 160km/h trains will be based on CAF's Civity platform and assembly will be carried out at CAF's facilities in Spain.

The new EMUs will be deployed on Northern Connect regional express services from Blackpool, Windermere and Preston to Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Crewe, and Stoke-on-Trent. They will also be used on Manchester - Glossop/Hadfield services, which are currently operated by class 323 EMUs, and supplement the existing fleet of class 333 EMUs on services from Leeds to Ilkley, Skipton, and Doncaster.

Arriva says the new DMUs will operate "almost all" diesel Northern Connect services, which will link northern England's core cities (Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, and Newcastle) with destinations including Chester, Barrow-in-Furness, Lincoln, Nottingham, and Hull


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## Harbornite

purple_cat said:


> I posted this back in March 2016;
> 
> I thought the Pacers were being replaced as part of the following order;
> 
> BRITISH rolling stock leasing company Eversholt Rail announced on January 22 that it has signed contracts with Arriva Rail North and CAF to finance and procure 281 regional multiple unit vehicles for the new nine-year Northern franchise, which starts in April.
> 
> The £490m order comprises 31 three-car and 12 four-car EMUs together with 25 two-car and 30 three-car DMUs, all of which are due to enter service by December 2018. The 160km/h trains will be based on CAF's Civity platform and assembly will be carried out at CAF's facilities in Spain.
> 
> The new EMUs will be deployed on Northern Connect regional express services from Blackpool, Windermere and Preston to Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Crewe, and Stoke-on-Trent. They will also be used on Manchester - Glossop/Hadfield services, which are currently operated by class 323 EMUs, and supplement the existing fleet of class 333 EMUs on services from Leeds to Ilkley, Skipton, and Doncaster.
> 
> Arriva says the new DMUs will operate "almost all" diesel Northern Connect services, which will link northern England's core cities (Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, and Newcastle) with destinations including Chester, Barrow-in-Furness, Lincoln, Nottingham, and Hull



I knew about the CAF orders but I'd missed the bit about a new assembly facility being built in the UK. The 331s and 195s will allow the last Nothern pacers to be ditched.


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## Nexis

*Trains at Speed UK (5)*


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## dimlys1994

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...p-of-troubled-tsgn-franchise.html?channel=524
> 
> *Britain’s DfT told to get a grip of troubled TSGN franchise*
> Friday, October 14, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _THE Transport Committee of Britain’s House of Commons wants the Department for Transport to “get a grip” on monitoring and enforcing the troubled Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN) franchise the performance of which is described as “woeful”_
> 
> The committee says the level of service provided by the franchisee Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), particularly on Southern services, has been woeful for more than a year. “The initial structuring of the franchise, inadequate planning, weaknesses in the franchise handover process, infrastructure and rolling stock failures, mismanagement, poor industrial relations and the current bitter and prolonged industrial dispute have all contributed to an unacceptable level of service for TSGN’s long-suffering passengers,” says the committee in its report entitled The future of rail: improving the rail passenger experience. The committee wants the DfT to urgently consider how to compensate passengers
> 
> ...


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## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...glia-franchise-is-deliberately-ambitious.html
> 
> *East Anglia franchise is ‘deliberately ambitious’*
> 17 Oct 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Greater Anglia Managing Director Jamie Burles was joined by Rail Minister Paul Maynard (centre) and Mark Pendlington of the New Anglia Local Enterprise Partnership (second from right) to launch the nine-year franchise on October 17_
> 
> UK: ‘This is a deliberately ambitious franchise’, insisted Rail Minister Paul Maynard, speaking at London Liverpool Street station on October 17 to mark the launch of Abellio’s nine year contract to operate the East Anglia franchise. 'We are using the franchise system to deliver a step change in quality'.
> 
> Abellio UK Managing Director Dominic Booth said that having run the franchise for the past four years under short-term contracts, Abellio had recognised the need for sustained long-term investment. He welcomed the ‘clear vote of confidence’ from the Department for Transport in backing Abellio’s Greater Anglia bid, which he believed would be ‘transformational’. Both Maynard and Booth paid tribute to the efforts of local authority-led task forces, which had convinced the government of the wider economic benefits offered by a more ambitious franchise at a time of rapidly growing demand
> 
> ...


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## suasion

Will they get rid of 5 abreast seating and slam door trains?


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## AlexNL

Greater Anglia is getting a complete new fleet. Every single train, including the very young Class 379's, will be replaced with new rolling stock built by Stadler and Bombardier.


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## Harbornite

suasion said:


> Will they get rid of 5 abreast seating and slam door trains?


Currently no one knows where the current Greater Anglia fleets will end up. The mark 3 coaches (the slam door ones) could get scrapped but there is still a need for these coaches so this might not happen. The Class 90 locomotives could end up with Freightliner but again, this is speculation.


----------



## TedStriker

DB Cargo plans to cut 893 jobs in face of ‘unprecedented’ market changes


----------



## po8crg

Harbornite said:


> Currently no one knows where the current Greater Anglia fleets will end up. The mark 3 coaches (the slam door ones) could get scrapped but there is still a need for these coaches so this might not happen. The Class 90 locomotives could end up with Freightliner but again, this is speculation.


Some of the mark 3 coaches have been bought by the A1 steam trust to be refurbished and used for charters.


----------



## M-NL

Brexit - Signalling implications for the UK


----------



## Harbornite

po8crg said:


> Some of the mark 3 coaches have been bought by the A1 steam trust to be refurbished and used for charters.


I know that they are seeking them but I don't think anything has been confirmed at this stage, unless I'm mistaken.


----------



## TedStriker

Swedish fund set to buy GB Railfreight


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...l-electrification-installation-completed.html
> 
> *Severn Tunnel electrification installation completed*
> 26 Oct 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: The 7 km Severn Tunnel reopened on October 22 following a six-week closure to install 25 kV 50 Hz electrification equipment
> 
> ...


----------



## dimlys1994

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...il-heads-moves-to-vertical-reintegration.html
> 
> *East West Rail heads move to vertical reintegration*
> 06 Dec 2016
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK: On December 6 Transport Secretary Chris Grayling announced a series of measures that aim to provide ‘a better service for the passenger’ through closer working between train operators and infrastructure manager Network Rail.
> 
> ‘We want to see closer working across the industry to resolve problems more quickly’, said Grayling. Announcing his intention to ‘start bringing back together’ train operations and infrastructure management, he said ‘our railway is much better run by one joined-up team of people. They don’t have to work for the same company. They do have to work in the same team.’
> 
> ..


----------



## arsisc

Thank you for sharing any nice information and knowledge


----------



## Ashtonian

*Electrification works delay due to lost skills - NCE*

Link to article.

High Speed 2 (HS2) chairman Sir David Higgins has blamed a non-skilled workforce for the delays on the Great Western electrification works.

In a parliamentary transport select committee inquiry taking evidence on HS2, Higgins said that the skills needed to carry out the electrification works had been lost in this country and that the industry had not known how to do the works.

”The industry can deliver, he said. ”They delivered it with the Olympics and the electrification programme at the same time. That is when we do something new, but the problem on Western — there is a Public Accounts Committee report coming out on that — was that it was new. We had not done electrification for 20 years. We had lost the entire skills of the industry. No one had designed electrification. On Western, the electrification was designed by accessing people in Austria and working with an Italian university, asking, ’How do you do overhead lines?’ No one had built it before. On the technical skills, no one had done anything remotely like that before.”

He went on to say that despite this, he was positive that the industry could deliver great projects on time and on budget and had shown this with projects such as the redevelopment of both Kings Cross and Birmingham Station and the whole re-signalling of Reading.

”If we look back at huge projects — for example, Stafford, which was a big interchange project and an alliance programme done in the same way as the Hitchin flyover — it was ahead of schedule and well under cost. It was a very successful project,” he said.

”The industry has a history and a habit of doing incredibly complex projects that it knows well on time. The message from electrification is not to stop things for a generation and then do a massive programme in one go when the industry cannot possibly cope. For the electrification, everything was planned in one go.”

Higgins was speaking at a one-off inquiry session into HS2 by the Transport Committee last week.










*My Comment*
Has it really been 20 years since a UK electrification Project? Airdrie-Bathgate was opened in 2011 and even the Bradford Electrification (Leeds to Bradford FS, Skipton and Ilkley) was opened in the early 00s.


----------



## geogregor

00Zy99 said:


> Something very 90s-ish about the 465.


Because they were built in the early 90s 

I quite like them, for trains which are more than 20 years old they are holding pretty well. On metro routes I actually prefer them over the 367s with its bad seats and lack of toilets.

Few more shots of class 465:
Dulwich

DSC03217 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Peckham

DSC08710 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Peckham

DSC08713 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

From Waterloo towards London Bridge:

P6021160 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

The same

P6021159 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Grove Park

P6041217 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P6041226 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P6041227 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P6041257 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## 00Zy99

I don't recognize all those locations. Do you have place names? Especially 2nd and 3rd from bottom.


----------



## AlexNL

That's the cross at Lewisham. The tracks on the right go towards London Bridge, the ones on the left go to Victoria.


----------



## geogregor

00Zy99 said:


> I don't recognize all those locations. Do you have place names? Especially 2nd and 3rd from bottom.


I added some names.



AlexNL said:


> That's the cross at Lewisham. The tracks on the right go towards London Bridge, the ones on the left go to Victoria.


The tracks on the left go not only to Victoria but also to fast lines up to New Cross and towards London Bridge.

A few shots from foggy bu busy morning in Hither Green, lots of class 375:

IMG_20161222_082104230_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082147337_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082350952_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082356830_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082414783_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082455003_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082458966_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082518829_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20161222_082523842_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## 00Zy99

Thank you very much for adding the names, I really appreciate it.


----------



## SalopianShrew

Harbornite said:


> Here's my shot of Eurostar Class 373 half sets 3003 and 3004 being hauled to Kingsbury Scrapyard in Warwickshire by GBRF Class 66 66768.
> 
> 
> 
> So far, three sets out of 16 have been sent there, and the rest will be sent in due course with one going every month.


Why cant they reuse them on the East Coast Mainline? 
They can run on it and are far better than anything that's on it today or planned in the bear future.
Have a depot that could access Kings Cross.
It would be a waste of it's power but they are ready and waiting for any line-speed upgrades


----------



## 00Zy99

You would have to crack them open and pull out a few trailers, but it would still be cheaper than new trainsets. What might be really interesting would be restoring the 3rd rail shoes. Through service from Scotland to the Channel, anyone?


----------



## Suburbanist

Something that puzzles me is the limited amount of on-screen information available on English stations. Some networks are deploying cheap LCD monitors everywhere, but Network rail seems to be completely oblivious to any network-wide plan for more use of electronic screens. This would involve not only train information but also things like platform train assignments etc.


----------



## AlexNL

Eurostar TMST sets are heavy, rusting, power hungry, and totally inadequate for the ECML because of their internal configuration. The limited amount of external doors will mean long dwell times, something which is undesirable on a busy line and in busy termini.


----------



## BriedisUnIzlietne

^^
How about Cardiff Valleys then, after their electrification 

The class 37 loco-hauled sets also didn't sport many doors when they were in use there


----------



## TedStriker

London - China intermodal service set for January launch


----------



## streetquark

suasion said:


> As good an example as you can find to prove brexit is a stupid idea.


Explain the connection between a Japan-EU/UK production and assembly project and BREXIT.


----------



## Harbornite

SalopianShrew said:


> Why cant they reuse them on the East Coast Mainline?
> They can run on it and are far better than anything that's on it today or planned in the near future.
> Have a depot that could access Kings Cross.
> It would be a waste of it's power but they are ready and waiting for any line-speed upgrades





AlexNL said:


> Eurostar TMST sets are heavy, rusting, power hungry, and totally inadequate for the ECML because of their internal configuration. The limited amount of external doors will mean long dwell times, something which is undesirable on a busy line and in busy termini.



Alex has summed it up well. You are wrong in saying that they would be "far better" then anything else. GNER actually used some Eurostar sets on Leeds services for a while but they weren't that suitable.

Just accept the facts: the 373s are outdated, in need of overhaul, power hungry and generally unsuitable for the classic railway network.


----------



## Harbornite

00Zy99 said:


> You would have to crack them open and pull out a few trailers, but it would still be cheaper than new trainsets. What might be really interesting would be restoring the 3rd rail shoes. Through service from Scotland to the Channel, anyone?


Sadly not. Google "nightstar" and "north of london Eurostar" to see what happened last time.


----------



## 00Zy99

Harbornite said:


> Sadly not. Google "nightstar" and "north of london Eurostar" to see what happened last time.


The market might have changed since then, but I was actually thinking about domestic services along the Channel coast-Brighton, Portsmouth, Dover, etc.


----------



## nidave

Vivarail D78 unit on fire at Kenilworth
https://mobile.twitter.com/chris_railway/status/814830417136283648


----------



## AlexNL

00Zy99 said:


> The market might have changed since then, but I was actually thinking about domestic services along the Channel coast-Brighton, Portsmouth, Dover, etc.


You can't just "pull out a few trailers" as there are Channel Tunnel safety requirements that require all passenger trains to be at least 375 meters in length*. Platform lengths are a further limiting factor, typical British platforms aren't much longer than 240 metres. 

This means that you'd have to get rid of a significant amount of coaches to get the length of a 373 down to at most 240 meters. This greatly reduces the viability of the business case, as 1/5th of the length of the train consists of power cars that can't seat passengers.

Even if you would get the necessary clearances to run with shorter units and the business case would be viable, going from the Eurotunnel to Brighton along the Coastway still isn't really viable (nor practical) for a couple of reasons:

1) The line from Ashford International to Hastings (the Marshlink Line) isn't electrified, an 373 can't run there on its own. So, you'd have to haul it with a diesel locomotive.
2) As a diesel locomotive counts towards the length of the train (including at platforms), this means that another coach has to go.
3) Not all diesel locomotives are fit for purpose, as the locomotive would have to provide electrical power to keep the passenger coaches alive (lighting, toilets, the bar, wi-fi)
4) The train would have to reverse at Ashford International _and_ Eastbourne, while the diesel locomotive would have to be coupled/uncoupled. This takes a considerable amount of time (15 minutes in each station?).
5) There are no "secure zones" in Brighton, so where are you going to do the necessary security and border checks? 

A different route could be taken to get to Brighton from Ashford (going through Tonbridge and reversing in Redhill) without a diesel locomotive, this route isn't really viable either. Platform lengths are still a limiting factor, and as the Brighton main line is quite full there might be capacity constraints or limitations to what the power supply can provide.

Going further (e.g. to Portsmouth) isn't possible due to the infrastructure layout in Brighton.


* This has to do with emergencies: when a train comes to a halt inside the tunnel, the safety authority wants all passengers to be able to get to an emergency exit by walking down the train and not having to descend into the tunnel.


----------



## 00Zy99

I am talking about an ENTIRELY DOMESTIC set of services. No security, no passports, nothing.

Glasgow-Brighton, Edinburgh-Portsmouth, Manchester-Folkestone. etc. etc. Various exact termini would be dependent on traffic patterns.

Wouldn't a set of power cars with ~8 trailers work? Maybe one power car could be converted into a passenger/baggage trailer? I suspect it would still be cheaper than building new EMU sets for the purpose.

Yes the market is not the biggest, but it would be a way to take advantage of existing capabilities cheaply. Trains would go around London on the WLL or maybe through Thameslink during the off-hours.


----------



## hammersklavier

00Zy99 said:


> I am talking about an ENTIRELY DOMESTIC set of services. No security, no passports, nothing.
> 
> Glasgow-Brighton, Edinburgh-Portsmouth, Manchester-Folkestone. etc. etc. Various exact termini would be dependent on traffic patterns.
> 
> Wouldn't a set of power cars with ~8 trailers work? Maybe one power car could be converted into a passenger/baggage trailer? I suspect it would still be cheaper than building new EMU sets for the purpose.
> 
> Yes the market is not the biggest, but it would be a way to take advantage of existing capabilities cheaply. Trains would go around London on the WLL or maybe through Thameslink during the off-hours.


You're forgetting that insular British gauge is more restrictive than the continental gauge the Eurostars were built for. I'm not at all sure you can easily reuse the train sets on e.g. the ECML or WCML (although you could theoretically on HS2 if it were much more advanced than it currently is).


----------



## Ashtonian

*New research into solar powered trains - NCE*

Researchers are starting a new project to investigate the use of track-side solar panels to power trains.

Researchers from or the Renewable Traction Power project by Imperial College London and climate change charity 10:10 believe the technology could be useful in rural areas where the electricity grid has reached its limit in both integrating distributed energy generation and supplying power to the train companies.

Consultant WSP Parsons Brinckerhoff said that installing solar panels alongside railway track in the UK could save Network Rail £30M and 895,000t of carbon a year in a previous, separate study.

“What is particularly galling is that peak generation from solar and peak demand from the trains more or less match but we can’t connect the two,” said 10:10 director of strategy Leo Murray. “I actually believe this represents a real opportunity for some innovative thinking.”
The plan is to bypass the grid so that the solar panels are connected directly to the railway power lines, using the panels when they’re needed most. 

The project will start by looking at the feasibility of converting third rail systems, which account for a third of the UK’s tracks. It would mean the researchers could match the way electricity is supplied by solar panels as direct current (DC) and use a similar voltage to the rail network of 750V DC.

The advantage of the third rail system is that DC power from panels could go to DC lines, without having to convert to AC. Challenges arise as the third rail is often used for signalling, so additional power cannot interfere with this. How and when the solar power is sent to the rail also has to be investigated. These technical aspects of the project will be a collaboration between researchers at Imperial College London and Turbo Power Systems (TPS).

“Many railway lines run through areas with great potential for solar power but where existing electricity networks are hard to access,” said Imperial’s Energy Futures Lab director Tim Green. “I think that focusing on the basics of integrating distributed energy generators into a railway’s system with the third-rail network brings a lot of benefits.”

The Renewable Traction project will start at the beginning of February 2017. It is a collaboration between 10:10, Turbo Power Systems, Community Energy South and Energy Futures Lab. It is funded through Innovate UK’s Energy Game Changers programme. It will release the results of its feasibility study in late 2017.










Link to Article


----------



## geogregor

Some shots of local stations in south London.

First, Sydenham Hill, very rural feel, like in countryside 

P1070367 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070369 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070373 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Southeastern from London London Victoria do Orpington serve this station with 4 tph. In peak times there are a few Thameslink services as well.

P1070374 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070378 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070379 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070383 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Train to London Victoria, let's jump in and go to the next station:

P1070384 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

West Dulwich:

P1070386 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070387 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070388 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070389 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070390 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Train from London Victoria to Orpington, let's go to Penge East (one station beyond the Sydenham Hill)

P1070391 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Penge East:

P1070393 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070396 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Fast train, not stopping here:

P1070397 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070408 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070400 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And finally Kent House:

P1070414 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070416 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Another fast train to Kent:

P1070417 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070418 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1070419 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## 00Zy99

None of the 800 series trains are 3rd-rail equipped, correct?


----------



## 8166UY

I love series like that! It gives some insight into the "normal" use of the train net (and peoples lives), not just the pretty or super-busy parts.


----------



## AlexNL

00Zy99 said:


> None of the 800 series trains are 3rd-rail equipped, correct?


Correct.


----------



## 00Zy99

8166UY said:


> I love series like that! It gives some insight into the "normal" use of the train net (and peoples lives), not just the pretty or super-busy parts.


I would argue that those stations are reasonably pretty, as are the woods they are surrounded by. The atmospheric time of day helps.



AlexNL said:


> Correct.


Thanks.


----------



## Sopomon

Penge East was my old haunt! 
Much more enjoyable ride in to work than going via London Bridge...


----------



## Ashtonian

What did you think of the recent BBC/OU series Full Steam Ahead? 

Link to i-player.


----------



## Ashtonian

*Carillion wins £49m Scottish rail deal* - Shotts Line Electrification

Link

Carillion has won a £49m contract from Network Rail to deliver rail electrification along a line in Scotland.

The contract will electrify 74km of rail on the Shotts line from Holytown Junction to Midcalder Junction.

The scheme is part of a wider £160m investment from the Scottish government in the line between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The contract will be carried out in tandem with work being delivered on a range of bridges as part of a route clearance programme so power cables can run under structures on the line.

New electric trains will be introduced on services between Edinburgh and Glasgow Central via the Shotts line following completion of the work, which is expected to improve reliability and increase capacity for passengers.

Scottish transport minister Hamza Yousaf said: “This contract award is a major step forward in the delivery of the electrification programme and rail passengers across North Lanarkshire and West Lothian will feel the benefits for many years to come with an improved service on the line.”

Iain McFarlane, head of programme management for Network Rail, said: “Throughout this project we will work closely with contractors, train operators and other stakeholders to deliver in the most efficient and cost-effective way possible while minimising disruption for both lineside communities and passengers.”










*Comment:* This has been campaigned for decades. It'll provide another electrified route between the two cities and assist in the regeneration for the towns served along the route.


----------



## dimlys1994

From Global Rail News

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2017/01/17/abellio-sells-40-share-in-greater-anglia-to-mitsui/

*Abellio sells 40% share in Greater Anglia to Mitsui*
January 17, 2017










Abellio has announced the planned sale of a 40 per cent stake in its Greater Anglia rail franchise to Japan’s Mitsui.

The announcement comes less than a week after Italy’s state-owned rail operator, Trenitalia, acquired the UK’s c2c franchise from National Express

...


----------



## geogregor

Some photos from the Southeastern Railway network:

Ashford International:
Class 375 from Charing X and London Bridge, platform 5:

IMG_20170117_083248317_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Patforms 3 and 4 (on the right) are for Eurostars, just a few a day (two?)

IMG_20170117_083233915_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Viaduct for the non-stopping Eurostars

IMG_20170117_083425844_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170117_083517040_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Hard to take pictures, I only had my phone and I was to slow with it 

Train to London Victoria:

IMG_20170117_153629126_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Signs in miles and km

IMG_20170117_153923729_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 395 to London:

IMG_20170117_154537561 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Crossing Medway River next to the M2. Class 395 is capable doing 140mph (225km/h) but timetable is set up for 10% less. If the train is late it can speed up.

IMG_20170117_155947692 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170117_155952019 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It takes 36 minutes (with two stops) to get from Ashford to London St Pancras.

IMG_20170117_162459348_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Ashford again and again to late to take decent photo of Eurostar 

IMG_20170118_125608502_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And again back to London

IMG_20170118_083824761 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Crossing Medway again:

IMG_20170118_155704921 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

After 18 minutes getting off at Ebbsfleet International, on the lower platforms where trains from London to Ashford stop:
IMG_20170118_160320235_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170118_160324749_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

View from the bridge:

IMG_20170118_160558512_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

At Ebbsfleet some of the high speed trains leave the high speed line and head for the north Kent (Gravesend, Faversham and further).
They stop at the higher level platforms (5 and 6)
View towards London:

IMG_20170118_160859933_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

View towards Kent:

IMG_20170118_160924493_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 395 arrives from London heading to Faversham:

IMG_20170118_161223055_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I catch it to get to Gravesend, just 4 minutes down the line:

IMG_20170118_161239228_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Gravesend, here I catch suburban train heading to London Charing X via Hither Green (my final destination)

IMG_20170118_161836575_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170118_161841924_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170118_161847769_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170118_161932033_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

This time I took camera with a proper zoom rather than just a phone, so here a few more pictures from Kent
Ashford International:

P1190446 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190447 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190457 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190458 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190459 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190460 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190461 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Interior of class 395 on its way to London:

P1190462 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Ebbsfleet International, low level platforms:

P1190471 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190472 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190473 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190474 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190475 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190477 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190478 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190479 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

View towards Kent:

P1190483 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Station hall:

P1190480 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Upper level platforms 5 and 6:

P1190485 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

View towards London, I think that the sign "CAB" marks beginning of the in-cab signalling.

P1190487 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

On the viaduct train from London leaving the high speed line for the upper levels platform before heading toward the north Kent via classic railway line:

P1190490 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190491 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

View towards the classic line heading to Gravesend:

P1190488 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190489 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Last few snaps are from Gravesend:

P1190495 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190496 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190497 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Old and new 

P1190499 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190500 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190501 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190502 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1190503 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Class 395 can couple and decouple automatically in less than 60 seconds: 

IMG_20170123_090202024_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170123_090138389_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170123_161809506_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## sotonsi

doc7austin said:


> Dorset County:


This is Hampshire (New Forest National Park) not Dorset.


----------



## doc7austin

> This is Hampshire (New Forest National Park) not Dorset.


The photo was taken between Southampton and Bournemouth.
I am not 100% sure where the border between these two counties (Hampshire, Dorset) lies exactly, but the border is definetely close to the point, where the photo was taken.


----------



## sotonsi

doc7austin said:


> The photo was taken between Southampton and Bournemouth.


A journey I've made many times.


> I am not 100% sure where the border between these two counties (Hampshire, Dorset) lies exactly,


Between Hinton Admiral and Christchurch. Given there's hills rather than urban area or flood plain that's 100% Hampshire (I'll save the discussion of the complete mess that means that Bournemouth is in both Hampshire and Dorset, depending on which set of officially recognised, but totally meaningless counties you are using to hide the fact that Bournemouth is in the 'county of Bournemouth', and just go with administrative counties).

It _might_ not be the national park, but there's little outside it on that route, and it doesn't look like that.


> but the border is definetely close to the point, where the photo was taken.


Maybe, but if you aren't 100% sure of where the border is, how can you say with certainity that it's close?


----------



## 00Zy99

How long does the trip to Weymouth take?


----------



## PortToday

*Rail freight service from the UK to China*

The first ever UK-China container train has departed today from DP World London Gateway container terminal for the city of Yiwu in Zhejiang province, eastern China. The unique rail freight service will pass through the Channel Tunnel and thereafter cross 7 countries - France, Belgium, Germany, Poland, Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan - making 12,000 km in 17 days. The export train operated by InterRail and carrying 32 containers with British goods including whisky, soft drinks, vitamins and pharmaceuticals is due to arrive at destination on 27 April.

Read more on: https://port.today/uk-china-container-rail-service-launched/


----------



## geogregor

Is it Network Rail test train?

IMG_20170404_115201163_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170404_115205029_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170404_115240854_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Kent House station early morning:

IMG_20170408_065133266_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Around Petts Woods, looking towwards London Bridge:

DSC00676 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00677 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Harbornite

Yes it is, probably heading to or from Derby RTC. The locomotive is Class 37 no. 37025, owned by the Scottish rail preservation society and hired to Colas Rail, though not for much longer.


----------



## Suburbanist

A very interesting channel/project for people interested on British railways


----------



## pellista

doc7austin said:


> The UK Railways are actually quite nice. I did a daytrip on South West Trains to Bournemouth in Dorset County last August.


im travelling to Bournemouth this August for a month of Advance English classes and im planning to do a daytrip just like you but the other way round.
How much did the ticket cost? Was it too expensive? i`ve heard that Travelling by coach is a good option too.


----------



## WingTips

*Meanwhile in the Manchester Area...*



Vulcan's Finest said:


> Pacers will all be gone from Manchester within two years, replaced by brand-new CAF air conditioned DMUs that are being built now.
> 
> 
> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...awarded-arriva-rail-north-train-contract.html
> 
> 
> Most of the Trans Pennine fleet (which are not exactly old anyway) are to be replaced by brand new air conditioned trains.
> 
> 
> From: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...spennine-express-coach-production-begins.html
> 
> 
> "CAF is to deliver 13 five-car push-pull trainsets from 2018, plus one spare driving vehicle.
> 
> In 2018-20 TransPennine Express is also to introduce 12 five-car Class 397 CAF Civity UK electric multiple-units and 19 five-car Hitachi Rail Europe AT300 Class 802 electro-diesel multiple-units".
> 
> 
> So that is 502 high-quality new vehicles in total - coming your way very soon.


----------



## lazaroskyr

The service of Southwest trains is appalling. Never paid so much to receive so little. If you are travelling for leisure, maybe occassionally, you cannot notice how bad they are. 

If you are travelling regularly, then it all becomes clear. 

Money for quality? A laugh.


----------



## AlexNL

What's wrong with SWT, in your view? What makes them worse than other commuter operators serving London, such as SE or Greater Anglia?


----------



## 00Zy99

How long is a trip to Weymouth?


----------



## AlexNL

The fast trains do the journey in 2h40, the semi-fasts need 2h57.


----------



## 00Zy99

Ah, thanks.

Is that the longest trip on the 3rd rail? What kind of on-board services are there (thinks of Brighton Belle)?


----------



## lazaroskyr

AlexNL said:


> What's wrong with SWT, in your view? What makes them worse than other commuter operators serving London, such as SE or Greater Anglia?


I am using SWT constantly as I am living close to Wandsworth Town station and I commute to work through Richmond or get to London through Waterloo. I am only occassionally using Southern to get to Gatwick and Greater Anglia for Stansted, so I do not have a proper opinion about these services. 

Where to start: short formations, delays, cancellations, very dirty trains, a generally unreliable service for which I was paying £323 per month when I was living in Egham (Surrey) and was commuting to London. The reviews that this service is getting is one of the worse in the UK, so it's not only me. 

Can somebody explain to me, why they are using as an excuse for delays the dropped leaves on the track? I never heard this before and I think that it is B....s..t! 

I now have my motorbike and I am using this horrible service less and less.


----------



## nidave

lazaroskyr said:


> .
> 
> Can somebody explain to me, why they are using as an excuse for delays the dropped leaves on the track? I never heard this before and I think that it is B....s..t!
> 
> I now have my motorbike and I am using this horrible service less and less.


Leaves in the line is not a new thing... From my understanding last year it was pretty dry so they stayed on the trees longer and more fell at once causing more of an issue. (at least that is what they said about the piccalilli line on the tube) - Its a huge issue. This video might help explain why.


----------



## AlexNL

lazaroskyr said:


> Can somebody explain to me, why they are using as an excuse for delays the dropped leaves on the track? I never heard this before and I think that it is B....s..t!


Leaves on the line are a genuine problem, and not just in the UK. When a train passes over a bunch of leaves, they get crushed by the weight of the train. The fluids in the leaves are pressed out of it and stick to the railhead, which leads to the wheels losing their grip.


----------



## AlexNL

00Zy99 said:


> Ah, thanks.
> 
> Is that the longest trip on the 3rd rail? What kind of on-board services are there (thinks of Brighton Belle)?


I don't know if it is _the_ longest trip, but it certainly is among the longest ones you can make in 3rd rail country.

On-board services? Errr... there's a loo, seat reservations, and a trolley service.


----------



## sotonsi

The Kent coast loop is longer, IIRC, but that's a London-coast-London service and now takes HS1 (so not third rail west of Ashford), rather than the SEML.


----------



## 3737

Tornado reached 100 mph last week. :cheers:


----------



## geogregor

Trip on Southeastern High Speed to Deal:

We are starting by catching new Thameslink class 700 to St Pancras:

DSC00831 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00836 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

New Eurostar from Siemens:

DSC00837 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00838 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00839 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00840 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00842 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Ready to go:

DSC00844 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

After Ashford we use classing third rail lane, and after Folkestone it offers great coastal views:

IMG_20170416_123343364_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

After exiting service in Deal our train continues to Ramsgate:

DSC00846 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00847 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00849 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Deal station

DSC00850 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

On the wway back:

DSC01371 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01372 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Again around Folkestone:

IMG_20170417_175609690_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## purple_cat

4 trains on the ECML - in parallel

https://youtu.be/sR--_pGdWmo


----------



## geogregor

More shots of Southeastern High Speed, this time from around Dover 

DSC01464 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01465 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01545 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01546 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01547 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01548 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01549 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01550 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC01551 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01552 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01553 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

This stretch of track was severely damaged by storm in December 2015. It took 9 months to build new concrete viaduct in place of the old structure (yes, it is a viaduct, not an embankment):

DSC01557 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01558 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Regular service to London Charing Cross:

DSC01562 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01565 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Dover Priory, service to Ramsgate is departing:

DSC01646 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01647 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01648 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01650 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Train to St Pancras entering station:

DSC01651 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Between Folkstone and Ashford International the classic tracks run parallel to the HS1:

DSC01653 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Aproaching Ashford International. HS1 bypasses the station (as well as various depots) via long viaduct:

DSC01657 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01658 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01659 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## The Polwoman

lazaroskyr said:


> Can somebody explain to me, why they are using as an excuse for delays the dropped leaves on the track? I never heard this before and I think that it is B....s..t!


Likely those planners on the West of the North Sea do not plan their services well. Leaves have been a problem in any West-European country since the construction of railway lines. The Netherlands sees all services being planned less tight: it is always already less tight compared to the UK because actually one should be able to compensate for delays.


But.. leaves make the rails very slippery. That makes it harder to brake for trains, losing traction. This gives quite some problems. We in the Netherlands use a lot of tools, from blowing the leaves away to heating (which causes leaves to dry out), or the opposite, keeping the tracks wet before leaves fall off which also seems to make leaves disappear.


----------



## 00Zy99

Wasn't there a halt right along Shakespeare Cliff near the tunnels at some point? Was there any thought put into re-opening it?


----------



## Stuu

The Polman said:


> Likely those planners on the West of the North Sea do not plan their services well. Leaves have been a problem in any West-European country since the construction of railway lines. The Netherlands sees all services being planned less tight: it is always already less tight compared to the UK because actually one should be able to compensate for delays.
> 
> 
> But.. leaves make the rails very slippery. That makes it harder to brake for trains, losing traction. This gives quite some problems. We in the Netherlands use a lot of tools, from blowing the leaves away to heating (which causes leaves to dry out), or the opposite, keeping the tracks wet before leaves fall off which also seems to make leaves disappear.


The UK changes timetables to account for leaf fall every year. Some lines have more time added than others depending on their location and nearby trees. It's not an exact science though, as leaf fall is dependent on the weather, so there will be days with no problems and others where it's even worse than planned for. 

The UK media seem to think that it is a joke reason, and also that the UK is the only place this happens, when it is a problem as mentioned anywhere with significant numbers of deciduous trees


----------



## MarcVD

Stuu said:


> The UK media seem to think that it is a joke reason


That, and the "wrong kind of snow"...


----------



## sonnyville

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...eroliner-3000-transport-railway-future-travel


----------



## Vaud

^^ the ceiling on the upper deck looks quite low for a comfortable ride, but that's an impression from the pictures. It's an interesting concept, I thought there was no way the British loading gauge could accept a double decker


----------



## sotonsi

Vaud said:


> I thought there was no way the British loading gauge could accept a double decker


It has done in the past, with the exact same problem you give of low ceilings.

Additional problems are the lack of accessibility - everywhere is got to by stairs and that won't be legal.

And those stairs add a lot to dwell times - this is the key reason why they won't work on existing railways in the UK: not the restrictive loading gauge making double-deckers cramped, but because it takes too long to board/disembark.

HS2 is providing two-platforms per direction because of this issue (as is the London Bridge rebuild on the Charing Cross lines and the peak direction Cannon Street lines - where there's high-frequency and high numbers of people getting on and off). Elsewhere such things aren't provided. The lengthy dwell times limit the number of trains you can send along the tracks before a train starts blocking those behind - the UK currently runs lower-capacity trains frequently, rather than higher-capacity trains infrequently and these double-deckers would change that, making rail less convenient and thus less desirable.


----------



## Mac_07

Island Line Trains (Isle of Wight):


----------



## Rational Plan

sotonsi said:


> It has done in the past, with the exact same problem you give of low ceilings.
> 
> Additional problems are the lack of accessibility - everywhere is got to by stairs and that won't be legal.
> 
> And those stairs add a lot to dwell times - this is the key reason why they won't work on existing railways in the UK: not the restrictive loading gauge making double-deckers cramped, but because it takes too long to board/disembark.
> 
> HS2 is providing two-platforms per direction because of this issue (as is the London Bridge rebuild on the Charing Cross lines and the peak direction Cannon Street lines - where there's high-frequency and high numbers of people getting on and off). Elsewhere such things aren't provided. The lengthy dwell times limit the number of trains you can send along the tracks before a train starts blocking those behind - the UK currently runs lower-capacity trains frequently, rather than higher-capacity trains infrequently and these double-deckers would change that, making rail less convenient and thus less desirable.


Reading the write up in Modern Rail the Aerolinas concept is really aimed at medium distance services from London in the 100 mile range and limited stop . It gives a 35% uplift in capacity for the same length of train and I can think of many outer suburban London runs they could be used on (Bournemouth, Oxford, Banbury, Northampton, Peterborough and Cambridge to name but a few. 

Allthose lines out of London are filling up and I can't see them building 4 new high speed lines out of London in the next 20 years. 

And those long distance commuter lines have seen the biggest growth due to Londons property prices. It's only a matter of time the Dept of Transport funds a prototype.


----------



## AlexNL

The alternative is either more tracks, lengthening platforms or enlarging the loading gauge so European sized double decker trains can run. None of them are really practical: in a heavily built-up area such as the one around London there's no room for additional tracks, platform lengthening is done, but isn't always practical, and widening the loading gauge is eye watering expensive as this means that many bridges and stations have to be adapted.


----------



## The Polwoman

^^ It would be a very good idea for Network Rail to have a map of where the loading gauge is expanded or where it is easy to expand: it could be a whole relief if it seems on some lines only small objects leave to be replaced somehow in order to make larger trains possible.

Btw, which loading gauge is expected for HS2?


----------



## 00Zy99

I have heard rumors of reopening the old LSWR from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton in order to have a bypass of the Dawlish sea wall. Any thoughts on likelihood there? Might they reopen some of the other branches (Padstow, etc.) at the same time, or as a result? Might this lead to double-tracking on the West of England line?


----------



## flierfy

The Polman said:


> Btw, which loading gauge is expected for HS2?


UIC loading gauge GC


----------



## AlexNL

The Polman said:


> ^^ It would be a very good idea for Network Rail to have a map of where the loading gauge is expanded or where it is easy to expand: it could be a whole relief if it seems on some lines only small objects leave to be replaced somehow in order to make larger trains possible.


Nearly everything on and around the railway is built according to the W6 loading gauge. The busiest lines in the country, serving Brighton, Bournemouth, Kent, etc, are built to this gauge. 

Say that you want to enlarge the Brighton Main Line, this would basically come down to building a whole new line as everything on the BML is tailored to the British gauge. This means gantries, platforms, bridges, tunnels, curves, et cetera.



> Btw, which loading gauge is expected for HS2?


HS2 will be built according to the UIC GC loading gauge, just like HS1. There will be two sorts of rolling stock: classic-compatible and captive. The captive stock can't run beyond HS2 as it would simply be too big, the classic-compatible stock is more narrow and thus can go basically everywhere (depending on route clearances).


----------



## 00Zy99

Here:










According to this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge

British railways seem to generally be around GA to GB.

PS-anyone have any news re: my last post on the LSWR?


----------



## AlexNL

This is more like it:










Image source: http://www.railway-technical.com/berne.shtml


----------



## Nexis

*London Kings Cross to York*


----------



## doc7austin

A closer look at Virgin Trains West Coast: London Euston - Glasgow via the West Coast Main Line


























































































































































Enjoy!


----------



## Suburbanist

An Youtuber couple launched a project to visit all Great Britain train stations this spring and summer.





.


----------



## suasion

Good luck visiting Shippea hill and lakenheath. They are on the same route but with hardly any (request only) trains calling. I reckon visiting shippley is only possible using the 07.15 ex Ely on a Saturday morning and sitting in Shippea hill until 19.27 to go back to Ely.
His only option might be to explain to the conductor he only wants a request stop to get off and back on again.


----------



## blindio

suasion said:


> Good luck visiting Shippea hill and lakenheath. They are on the same route but with hardly any (request only) trains calling. I reckon visiting shippley is only possible using the 07.15 ex Ely on a Saturday morning and sitting in Shippea hill until 19.27 to go back to Ely.
> His only option might be to explain to the conductor he only wants a request stop to get off and back on again.


they don't have to stop, just be on a train that does stop there, it would take considerably longer otherwise


----------



## Brenda goats

Cambridge North Station opens today 21.05.17


----------



## geogregor

Today slightly unusual bit of UK's railway infrastructure, the Eurotunnel Termnal in Folkestone:

How it looks on map:

Eurotunel Terminal by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And general views, there is some construction activity, I have no idea what are they building:

DSC02895 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02935 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Eurostar from France exiting the tunnel:

DSC02897 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Loading and unloading ramps:

DSC02898 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02903 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Open shuttle train for lorries exiting the tunnel:

DSC02905 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02907 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Three open shuttle train for trucks and closed shuttle for cars:

DSC02914 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Front of the open shuttle train, there is one passenger car for the truck drivers:

DSC02916 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02917 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Unloading the shuttle train:

DSC02921 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02938 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Lorry drivers are transported by minibuses:

DSC02924 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Trucks exiting via ramp:

DSC02931 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02933 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Waiting for loading:

DSC02940 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Slightly different vantage point, directly over the tunnel entrance:

DSC02973 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Shuttle from France arriving:

DSC02976 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02979 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

This one on its way to France:

DSC02981 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02983 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02984 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02986 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

General view, it seems that the shuttle trains arrive and depart every few minutes:

DSC02990 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Loco pushing the shuttle tran from France:

DSC02991 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Closed shuttle entering the tunnel:

DSC02993 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02995 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02996 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Eurostar from France:

DSC02997 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02998 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02999 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03001 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03004 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Some photos from my trip to Folkestone.

Sevenoaks:

DSC02860 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Damn graffiti morons :bash:

DSC02861 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 375 to Dover entering station:

DSC02862 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Folkestone West:

DSC02868 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Between Folkestone and Dover:

DSC03107 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 395 to St Pancras:

DSC03114 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03115 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03116 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC03117 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03118 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 375:

DSC03120 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03121 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Towards Dover:

DSC03153 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

On its way from Folkestone:

DSC03147 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03148 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Towards Dover again:

DSC03150 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Another class 395 heading towards Dover:

DSC03156 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03157 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03158 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03160 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 375, heading towards Folkestone:

DSC03161 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Walking along the track:

DSC03169 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Shot from above the tunnel entrance, not far from Folkestone:

DSC03175 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Impressive viaduct in Folkestone:

DSC03286 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 375 on top:

DSC03298 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03299 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03301 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And 395:

DSC03302 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03303 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03304 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Heading back to London from Folkestone Central:

DSC03317 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Viaduct in Eynsford:

P9120882 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P9120860 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P9120861 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P9120866 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P9120942 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P9120940 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P9120944 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Views from the top:

P9120814 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P9121048 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Around Paddington station:

DSC03656 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03661 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03662 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03663 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03664 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03665 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03732 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03731 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03730 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Paddington station is amazing:

DSC03674 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03675 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03676 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03678 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03680 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03681 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03685 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03687 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC03688 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Especially the roof:

DSC03690 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03692 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03693 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03696 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Isambard Kingdom Brunel:

DSC03695 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03699 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03701 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC03703 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03706 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Great Western arriving:

DSC03707 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 43:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_43_(HST)

DSC03709 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I could see a lot of mess on the tracks, do those trains have open toilets?

DSC03713 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03714 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03712 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03718 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC03719 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03722 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03724 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03725 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03726 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03727 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03733 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03734 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03736 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Last few shots from Paddington:

DSC03721 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03739 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03740 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03741 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03743 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03744 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03747 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Cachanging trains in Orpington, class 375 to Ramsgate arriving:

DSC03993 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And a few shots from Ramsgate. Looks quite Art Deco:

DSC04006 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04007 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04009 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04010 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04012 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Looks nice from the outside:

DSC04013 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04015 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Suburbanist

Some train geeks organized a visit to UK's least used station at Shippea Hill, so that it would no longer be the least used eventually when 2017 usage statistics are compilled.


----------



## sotonsi

And some local ladies who wouldn't normally use it had been doing (long) day trips to go shopping in Norwich every couple of months too, meaning it would have probably overtaken the next unused anyway. Plus 16 people went there in December (in this count year) to get some mince pies of Ian Cumming (2015 finalist of _Great British Bake Off_). We're looking at 50 minimum for this year.

Last 5 data points for annual visitors is:
378
50
12
22
12

So it seems that plans to get people to use the station (eg 2014/15) don't keep the numbers held up. It's a request stop, so there's no reason why there can't be 2 trains a day each way or something, but the timetable is designed to not be conducive to passenger numbers, especially as most users have to drive to get there (eg from Prickwillow) and might as well drive to Ely station instead.


----------



## AlexNL

It's one of those stations that would probably be better off if closed for good, but because of the lengthy procedures involved with closure they'd rather not even try to.


----------



## redstarcastles

First part from a recent trip to London, enjoy:


700 101 East Croydon 5 June 2017


700 104 East Croydon 5 June 2017


377 706 East Croydon 5 June 2017


455 818 East Croydon 5 June 2017


455 809 East Croydon 5 June 2017


171 806 Uckfield 5 June 2017


377 449 Hove 5 June 2017


313 204 Hove 5 June 2017


158 957 Hove 5 June 2017


700 114 Brighton 5 June 2017


387 220 Brighton 5 June 2017


442 408 Eastbourne 6 June 2017


377 207 and friend Eastbourne 6 June 2017


375 907 Hastings 6 June 2017


395 004 Ashford International 6 June 2017

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-London-and-South-East-June-2017/


----------



## geogregor

Short trip along the following route: 
Hither Green - London Bridge - Gatwick - Redhill - Tonbridge - Tunbridge Wells - Orpington - Hither Green

Gatwick Express, class 387 departing from Gatwick

DSC04434 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 377, Southern:

DSC04437 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04438 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Few shots from Redhill:

DSC04455 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 377 and 700:

DSC04456 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04458 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04459 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04461 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

I'm catching this train to Tonbridge:

DSC04462 by Geogregor*, on 

Change in Tonbridge:

DSC04465 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Tunbridge Wells:

DSC04470 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04471 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04475 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Southeastern Class 375 to London entering Tunbridge Wells:

DSC04480 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04482 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

In the meantime train to Hastings arrived at down platform:

DSC04483 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Two shots from the outside of Tunbridge Wells station:
Up-side:

DSC04489 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And down-side:

DSC04490 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

London Bridge:

IMG_20170616_090246863_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170616_090209383_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr

The rest of the station is taking shape:

IMG_20170619_144240297_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20170619_144535520_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

South Western Trains placed big order for the Bombardier Aventra trains. It will be 90 EMUs.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/bombardier-to-supply-750-emu-cars-for-south-western-franchise.html










Light Rail link between Luton Airport Parkway and Luton Airport got aproveal:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-40370475


----------



## Mac_07

Tourist trains on the Isle of Wight:


----------



## Brenda goats

See one of the UK's least used stations: Berney Arms, in the middle of nowhere, Norfolk UK.


----------



## IanCleverly

It hasn't been in use since the modernisation of the West Coast mainline at the start of the new century, but now officially, Norton Bridge station in Stafforshire is to close:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/norton-bridge-station-closure


----------



## AlexNL

*Sheffield, Swansea and Windermere electrification cancelled*

UK: The government confirmed on July 19 that it had cancelled the planned 25 kV 50 Hz electrification of the Midland Main Line between Kettering, Nottingham and Sheffield, the Cardiff – Swansea route and the Oxenholme – Windermere branch.

Railway Gazette


----------



## redstarcastles

166 207 Maidenhead 19 July 2017


59 203 Maidenhead 19 July 2017


387 141 Maidenhead 19 July 2017


165 118 Maidenhead 19 July 2017


90 011 London Liverpool St 20 July 2017


345 005 London Liverpool St 20 July 2017


345 005 side notice London Liverpool St 20 July 2017


321 429 London Liverpool St 20 July 2017














172 007 Barking 20 July 2017


378 212 & 378 229 Gospel Oak 20 July 2017


390 002 London Euston 20 July 2017


350 376 London Euston 20 July 2017


390 013 Milton Keynes Central 20 July 2017

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-London-and-Maidenhead-July-2017/

Enjoy!


----------



## Mac_07

Siemens e320 from London to Paris:


----------



## LtBk

I noticed the rail line between Liverpool and Leeds is not electrified already. Why?


----------



## redstarcastles

Lack of cash and political will. Hopefully it will be electrified soon. Liverpool to Manchester via Chat Moss is electrified. Liverpool Central is not wired.


----------



## redstarcastles

156 486 Stockport 5 August 2017


175 101 Stockport 5 August 2017


155 343 Rochdale 5 August 2017


150 141 Rochdale 5 August 2017


319 371 Manchester Piccadilly 5 August 2017


319 367 Manchester Piccadilly 5 August 2017


350 405 Manchester Piccadilly 5 August 2017


142 058 Stockport 6 August 2017


142 058 Interior 6 August 2017


153 312 Chester 6 August 2017


507 010 Chester 6 August 2017


Picture of proposed platforms at Liverpool Lime St 6 August 2017


185 102 & 185 145 Manchester Piccadilly 6 August 2017

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Manchester-North-West-August-2017/


----------



## AlexNL

Today has seen a big change in the UK's rail market: the South Western franchise has changed hands. After being operated by Stagecoach South West Trains for 21 years, control has now passed to a consortium of FirstGroup and MTR, who use the name South Western Railway for the services on the SW network. 

Yesterday was somewhat of a sentimental day for SWT, whose Twitter team kept retweeting tweets from passengers sharing their SWT related memories and pictures. However, at 02:00 they dropped the mic and announced that the service was now known as South Western Railway.


----------



## Sopomon

^^
Quite sad actually, they were one of the better commuter operators in London. 
However SWR's banding is very cool with the stylized network map as a logo.


Times change!


----------



## purple_cat

Throstle Nest Junction, Manchester - today

IMG_3596 by Claire Williamson, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Platforms 20-24 (formerly Eurostar) in use during the August blockade at Waterloo. For now only temporarily, they will be closed again from September and reopened permanently next year:

DSC08411 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC08413 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC08414 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC08416 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC08417 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Few shots from Worcester Shrub Hill:

Class 180, Great Western
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_180

DSC07887 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07893 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Old fashioned signaling:

DSC07889 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07890 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07892 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07894 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Victorian waiting rooms

DSC07896 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 170, London Midlands:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_170

DSC07897 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07899 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

In general this station looks run down and old fashioned. It wouldn't be out of place somewhere in Eastern Europe.


----------



## Ashtonian

....


----------



## Ashtonian

geogregor said:


> Victorian waiting rooms
> 
> DSC07896 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


But these look great!


----------



## geogregor

Ashtonian said:


> But these look great!


True, but overall the station doesn't look good. It has windswept feel, with weeds growing on tracks (you can see some on my photos) and general lack of investment visible.


----------



## Martin S

The Great Orme Tramway in North Wales. A cable hauled tramway linking the picturesque seaside resort of Llandudno with the summit of the Great Orme, a rocky headland to the west of the resort, famous for its diverse wildlife that include Kashmir goats.
Victoria Station is the departure point for trips up the Orme:








The tramway is 3’6” gauge and was first opened to traffic in 1902.

A crossing point on the lower section of the tramway:








The tramway is a standard cable hauled arrangement with the descending car counterbalancing the ascending car.

A car on the upper section of the tramway approaching the midpoint station:








The upper section does not have inset track and so the cables and cable rollers are exposed.
The trolley pole on the roof is an old communication feature.

A car nearing the summit of the Great Orme at some 600’ above sea level.








From the top of the Great Orme there are views over Liverpool Bay and the Irish Sea


----------



## Neb81

Are there any realistic plans for electrifying the Solihull-Moor St-Stourbridge route? The frequencies on the route certainly justify it, and it'd be a huge improvement, especially if more services were extended to Kidderminster. The New Street to Rugeley service could benefit from electrification too. Birmingham always seems to come up in the last bucket with urban rail.


----------



## arthurstudent

New Great Western Railway train at Paddington Station 








[/url]Untitled by Arthurstudent, on Flickr[/IMG]


----------



## AlexNL

*Five go on a Great Western Adventure*

Enid Blyton’s classic children’s favourites, The Famous Five, embark on their very latest adventure that takes them through the stunning backdrop of the South West and Wales as part of GWR’s new marketing campaign for the Intercity Express Train.

_And to help celebrate in true Famous Five style, from 25 September to 19 November 2017 you can buy Luscombe Ginger Beer on board._

Source: GWR


----------



## Short

AlexNL said:


> *Five go on a Great Western Adventure*
> 
> Enid Blyton’s classic children’s favourites, The Famous Five, embark on their very latest adventure that takes them through the stunning backdrop of the South West and Wales as part of GWR’s new marketing campaign for the Intercity Express Train.
> 
> _And to help celebrate in true Famous Five style, from 25 September to 19 November 2017 you can buy Luscombe Ginger Beer on board._
> 
> Source: GWR


So they are saying that the new InterCity Express is slower than a hot air balloon, a vintage motorcycle or speedboat!?!

At least there will be a slap-up meal with plenty of marmalade and lashings of cream, with the Famous Five onboard.


----------



## geogregor

A few shots from Stafford where I was changing trains:


DSC02223 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 390, Pendolino:

DSC02226 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

London Midlands, class 350:

DSC02227 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Station from the 70s but quite functional:

DSC02228 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Cross Country, DMU class 220:

DSC02230 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02231 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02234 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02236 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Approaching London Bridge:

IMG_20171003_171439173 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20171003_171447333 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20171003_171451548 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20171003_171736189 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20171003_171809318 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20171003_171857918 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## redstarcastles

387 206 East Croydon 31 August 2017


377 443 East Croydon 31 August 2017


700 102 East Croydon 31 August 2017


165 111 London Paddington 31 August 2017


387 145 London Paddington 31 August 2017


43 010 Slough 1 September 2017


165 137 Windsor & Eton Central 1 September 2017


458 502 Windor & Eton Riverside 1 September 2017


707 008 Clapham Junction 1 September 2017


317 714 Upminster 1 September 2017


357 326 Dagenham Dock 1 September 2017


332 008 London Paddington 1 September 2017

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-London-August-September-2017/


----------



## geogregor

Liverpool Lime Street:

DSC02780 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02785 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02786 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02787 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Crewe from the train window:

DSC02793 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02794 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Stafford:

DSC02795 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02796 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

More Stafford station:
Class 220, Cross Country:

DSC02797 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02798 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Pendolino

DSC02799 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02800 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

London Midlands to Euston:

DSC02801 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

West Hamspstead Thameslink station:

DSC02828 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02830 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## IanCleverly

Late touches being done to the station ready for its somewhat delayed re-opening in February.








Leamington Observer said:


> The Opening of the new Kenilworth railway station has been delayed again – because there is no train available.
> The first train was set to arrive at the town’s new £13.6million station on Sunday (December 10), but just days before the scheduled opening the Department for Transport (DfT) has said no train or drivers will be available until February to operate a service on the line running between Leamington and Coventry.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> The station was originally set to open last December, before being put back to August, and then again to this December. Town councillor Richard Dickson was far from happy with the latest delay." To say that Kenilworth has waited 53 years and that another two months won’t hurt displays an out of touch arrogance that is beyond belief. This is the single biggest inward investment in the town for decades. Kenilworth residents demand better from its county council. Its staff who are paid to manage such huge projects properly and its county councillors who are elected to serve local people. To have missed the opportunities provided by Christmas and the New Year activities is a huge failure. What guarantees can there be that the DfT will deliver by February?".
> 
> The DfT contributed £5million to the total cost of the project, with the remainder of the funding being provided by local transport bodies and the county council. The new Station Road station – on the site of the town’s former station which closed in 1965 as part of the so-called Beeching Cuts – also includes a ticket office, 90-space car park and cycle parking.
> 
> https://leamingtonobserver.co.uk/news/kenilworth-railway-station-opening-delayed-until-february/


----------



## Minato ku

TheMoses said:


> ^^ One thing that's mad:
> 
> Waterloo Station ~100m passengers
> Waterloo Underground ~ 100m passengers
> 
> Gare du Nord ~200m passengers
> Gare du Nord Metro ~ 50m passengers
> 
> Even allowing for RER, how the fvck are all those people getting to/from Gare du Nord? Walking? Do they all live/work nearby?


Note that you compare apple and orange when you compare metro and underground station ridership.

London Underground includes entries and exits when Paris metro only includes entries.
So the reality of ridership for Gare du Nord metro is 100 million.


----------



## flierfy

TheMoses said:


> Even allowing for RER, how the fvck are all those people getting to/from Gare du Nord? Walking? Do they all live/work nearby?


There are lots of people who change between Transilien and RER services in Paris Nord, I suppose.


----------



## sotonsi

flierfy said:


> There are lots of people who change between Transilien and RER services in Paris Nord, I suppose.


And thus count twice (as do those changing TGV-RER) in the figures for Paris GdN?


----------



## geogregor

Last phase of the London Bridge station rebuild had ended. Station reopened today after the Xmas blockade:
https://twitter.com/TLProgramme


----------



## da_scotty

That archway, stunning!


----------



## redstarcastles

319 366 Manchester Piccadilly 1 December 2017

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/Yorkshire-and-Manchester-December-2017/


----------



## geogregor

Ok, had a quick look around new London Bridge station, here are some photos:


DSC05604 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05606 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05608 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05609 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05610 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05612 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05614 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05615 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC05632 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05633 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05636 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05639 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05640 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05642 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05643 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05644 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05646 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05647 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

da_scotty said:


> That archway, stunning!


Yes, the arches look great:

DSC05616 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05617 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05618 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05619 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05623 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05624 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Fantastic texture of the concrete arches:

DSC05625 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05626 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05629 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05630 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC05648 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05652 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05653 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05654 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05655 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05657 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05658 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05659 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05662 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC05670 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05672 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05673 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05674 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05675 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05676 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05669 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05666 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Time to head home:

DSC05677 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Generally huge improvement. There are still a lot of finishing touches to be done plus a lot of retail units are not open yet but it already looks good.


----------



## doc7austin

Here is a brief trip report aboard a Great Western Railway HST in First Class, travelling between London Paddington and Penzance in Cornwall.








Enjoy!


----------



## Vaud

Thanks for the pics geogregor! they've done an amazing job, the end result is much better than I expected.


----------



## geogregor

Vaud said:


> Thanks for the pics geogregor! they've done an amazing job, the end result is much better than I expected.


Yes they did a good job.

But some things could be improved, for example this space could be arranged better:

DSC05759 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

But the pub will be great location for the last minute pint before the train: :cheers:

DSC05757 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05756 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

On the upper level there is still a lot to do with the retail units:

DSC05741 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05742 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It would be nice if they managed to finish it all before the May timetable change 

DSC05742 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05760 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05762 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Some shots of the platforms:

DSC05710 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05711 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05714 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05715 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05717 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05718 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05719 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05728 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05731 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05732 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC05737 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05777 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Service to Hastings

DSC05768 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Departing from platform 6:

DSC05771 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05772 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05774 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Views from the end of platform 1:

DSC05723 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05724 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05726 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Views from platform 2:

DSC05704 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05706 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And from paltform 6:

DSC05764 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05766 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05781 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05782 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05783 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05786 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05789 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And that's it for now. I think I photographed most of the stuff worth posting. Now time to wait for Thameslik trains to arrive on platforms 4 and 5 after the May timetable change.

And of course for all the retail units to be finished and opened.


----------



## geogregor

Bermondsey dive-under on the approaches to London Bridge:

https://twitter.com/TLProgramme/status/952830756786761729


----------



## PortoNuts

*Go-ahead for £150m Guildford station scheme*

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2018/01/24/go-ahead-for-150m-guildford-station-scheme/



> *Kier has finally got the planning go-ahead for a £150m redevelopment of Guildford railway station and its adjacent car park site.*
> 
> *The scheme, which is being development as part of the Solum joint venture with Network Rail, involves a new station building, £25m of station improvements and 438 new homes and office space.*


----------



## Paul Bigland

2018 sees the beginning of the end for the BR built 'Pacer' railbuses, the first of which are expected to go off-lease after the May timetable change. Northern Rail is replacing its entire fleet of Pacers by 2020 with new trains or existing DMU's cascaded from other operators.

I've compiled a large selection of pictures that look back over the life and times, you can find it here. https://paulbigland.blog/2018/01/12...for-pacer-trains-so-heres-a-pictorial-review/


----------



## purple_cat

From the Railways in Newcastle & the North East thread;

https://youtu.be/XmYSSAHr-mc


----------



## geogregor

Brighton:

DSC07857 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07858 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07859 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07862 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07863 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07864 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07865 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

DSC07867 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07868 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Great Victorian viaduct:

DSC07892 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07913 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07915 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07898 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07903 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Paul Bigland

Here's a new blog looking at the fact that due to the level of new trains on order or coming into service in the UK over the next few years over 4,000 older vehicles will be coming off lease, some of them are only a couple of years old. Whilst the older ones will go for scrap. Over 1,500 vehicles with life left in them have nowhere to go. And, you'd need over 52 miles of siding space to store them in....https://paulbigland.blog/2018/03/28/the-new-trains-dilemma-what-to-do-with-the-old-ones/


----------



## redstarcastles

Pictures from Scotland:


92 010 Edinburgh Waverley 25 February 2018


43 319 Edinburgh Waverley 26 February 2018


158 726 Edinburgh Waverley 26 February 2018


158 701 Perth 26 February 2018


43 179 Dundee 26 February 2018


68 007 at Edinburgh Waverley 26 February 2018


350 404 & 334 013 Edinburgh Waverley 26 February 2018


73 971 at Edinburgh Waverley 26 February 2018


91 115 at Edinburgh Waverley 27 February 2018


North Berwick and 380 106 27 February 2018


380 106 North Berwick 27 February 2018


Snowy scene at Edinburgh Waverley 27 February 2018

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Scotland-February-2018-Part-2/


----------



## doc7austin

Video experience, riding the Night Riviera Sleeper Train between Penzance and London Paddington:








Enjoy!


----------



## Paul Bigland

Here's a run-down on and look at the new Siemens built Class 717s which will be replacing the Class 313 on Great Northern services out of Moorgate in London. It includes technical details and plans for service introduction https://paulbigland.blog/2018/05/05/coming-soon-new-trains-for-the-gn-moorgate-lines/ …


----------



## ArunasTravelPhoto

*Forth Bridge, Scotland*


----------



## kokomo

Was the Forth Bridge always this colour? I somehow pictured it Greenish :hmm:


----------



## wgerman

With Amtrak in the USA looking at DMUs, how well are the Hitachi 800 series of trains holding up? How are they performing?


----------



## WingTips

*Manchester | Piccadilly To Victoria Direct Rail Link | Ordsall Curve*



Stopfordian Dreamer said:


> Had a look around the chord area today and saw road works and whatnot are still ongoing.


----------



## Svartmetall

wgerman said:


> With Amtrak in the USA looking at DMUs, how well are the Hitachi 800 series of trains holding up? How are they performing?


Well, it's worth considering these are UK-built trains. They had teething problems at first (with the aircon) but I think they're performing well now (or at least I've not read any moaning in the news anyway).


----------



## tavon

kokomo said:


> Was the Forth Bridge always this colour? I somehow pictured it Greenish :hmm:


Always been 'Forth Bridge Red' to match the original red oxide used in 1890


----------



## kokomo

Thnx!


----------



## Fatfield

ECML (East Coast Main Line) to be put into public control (again!).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44142258
https://news.sky.com/story/east-coast-rail-franchise-to-come-under-government-control-11374723


----------



## purple_cat

Fatfield said:


> ECML (East Coast Main Line) to be put into public control (again!).
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44142258
> https://news.sky.com/story/east-coast-rail-franchise-to-come-under-government-control-11374723


Time trains were painted like this;

london-ne-railway-lner-logo-enamelled-steel-wall-sign-dp--8338-p by Claire Williamson, on Flickr


----------



## da_scotty

Wiki uses this logo:


----------



## xeror




----------



## AHC

da_scotty said:


> Wiki uses this logo:


That's the one that LNER uses on their website as well. The blue one is from a previous London and North Eastern Railway (1923-1947).


----------



## Svartmetall

Nostalgic trip on a specially noisy bus on rails with all the suspension of a donkey on a dirt track?


----------



## geogregor

Let's leave Pacers behind, some views from around Lewes:


DSC06312 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06314 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05970 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 377 Southern to Eastbourne:

DSC05971 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05975 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 377 again, Southern do Brighton:

DSC06317 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06319 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06320 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06321 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Further from London Southern uses class 313. Looks ancient but still better than Pacers 

DSC07244 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07019 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07020 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Newhaven Town:

DSC07023 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07246 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Looks like somewhere in depths of Eastern Europe :troll:

DSC07243 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

On the way back I got class 377 to Brighton:

DSC07248 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## sotonsi

geogregor said:


> Still, it is something different to experience Pacers during a "fun project" and something entirely different if you have to use them for daily commuting.


They used them, daily, for work. And their work was to sit on them. I don't think it was overly different, other than they spent longer on them as it was their work to ride them all day some days.

I think Vicky likes them because they were quaint - I can't find the bit where she goes into detail about it, but she does acknowledge the many problems. Geoff typically groaned or commented when a Pacer showed up in a way to get Vicky to assert her strange positive attitude Pacers. As such, some of it was overdone - Vicky didn't seem to be genuinely sad when there were no more Pacers, but both of them tried to suggest that she was a little sad about that. In some ways, it's like the Isle of Wight thing - a running joke.

Apparently they've sold rather a lot of 'I love Pacers' t-shirts, mostly to people who don't like them!


----------



## Ashtonian

AlexNL said:


> Hate them as much as you like, but Pacers have saved train services in a number of rural areas. Without them, the lines would have been closed decades ago.
> 
> They've been kept in service way beyond their anticipated design life though.


I'm sure the single car version of the Super Sprinters would have done the same job better than the pacers at marginally extra cost.


----------



## geogregor

sotonsi said:


> *They used them, daily, for work.* And their work was to sit on them. I don't think it was overly different, other than they spent longer on them as it was their work to ride them all day some days.


Come on, you can't be serious. They were shooting Youtube video. Geoff lives in London, in Penge, and he doesn't have to use Pacers on regular basis. 



> I think Vicky likes them because they were quaint - I can't find the bit where she goes into detail about it, but she does acknowledge the many problems. Geoff typically groaned or commented when a Pacer showed up in a way to get Vicky to assert her strange positive attitude Pacers. As such, some of it was overdone - Vicky didn't seem to be genuinely sad when there were no more Pacers, but both of them tried to suggest that she was a little sad about that. In some ways, it's like the Isle of Wight thing - a running joke.
> 
> Apparently they've sold rather a lot of 'I love Pacers' t-shirts, mostly to people who don't like them!


This is typical nostalgia from people who don't have to use this junk on regular basis. Vicky or Geoff might romanticize Pacers as much as they like from the safe distance of London, it doesn't change the fact that those "trains" are junk. Always were, always will.

As for the sale of T-shirts, I wish them all the best. People buy all sort of strange T-shirts


----------



## sotonsi

geogregor said:


> Come on, you can't be serious. They were shooting Youtube video.


Which was their work. You're just being a snob here - they weren't doing a 'real job', so their opinions don't matter.


> Vicky or Geoff might romanticize Pacers as much as they like from the safe distance of London


According to your profile, you're in London too, so what right do you have to give an opinion? You are likewise opining from a 'safe distance'! This has nothing to do with them living in London, but, like the 'not a proper job' nonsense, this is simply invoking prejudice and bigotry to exclude the heretical view.

Vicky's 'romanticism' of Pacers wasn't from the safe distance of London, but actually in Pacers, after having spent hours in them many days in a row, having interviewed fellow passengers, having been rained on inside them, etc. Some of it was (explicitly so) with her rail historian hat on, some of it was simply her aesthetic tastes with an acknowledgement that she was being weird. All of it was fully aware of the problems of Pacers.

They rode Pacers in the SW, in Wales, in the Midlands, in the North. They easily clocked up as many miles in them in those couple of months as northern commuters do in a year. The idea that Vicky and Geoff don't meet the bar to opine on Pacers is frankly absurd.

PS: as I've said, Geoff doesn't like Pacers, and Vicky's genuine and informed liking of Pacers was played up for the cameras.


----------



## Stuu

^^

Making a film about them is *not* the same as having to rely on to get to work in all weathers, they aren't going to be stressed about being late for work or whatever. 

If a train doesn't turn up then that is almost as useful to them as if it did, gives more content. Not the case for anyone else waiting for the train.


----------



## sotonsi

^^ They got very stressed about arriving late and missing trains as it meant a whole lot more work for them, what with running on what was often a tightly planned schedule that they then had to bin and redo to make sure they were on that one peak train that stopped at that one difficult station, and then work out how to do the stations they now couldn't do the next day.


----------



## Stuu

Messing up their filming schedule and being late for work are very different things - were they in any danger of getting fired if their schedule went wrong?


----------



## geogregor

sotonsi said:


> Which was their work. You're just being a snob here - they weren't doing a 'real job', so their opinions don't matter.
> According to your profile, you're in London too, so what right do you have to give an opinion? You are likewise opining from a 'safe distance'! This has nothing to do with them living in London, but, like the 'not a proper job' nonsense, this is simply invoking prejudice and bigotry to exclude the heretical view.
> 
> Vicky's 'romanticism' of Pacers wasn't from the safe distance of London, but actually in Pacers, after having spent hours in them many days in a row, having interviewed fellow passengers, having been rained on inside them, etc. Some of it was (explicitly so) with her rail historian hat on, some of it was simply her aesthetic tastes with an acknowledgement that she was being weird. All of it was fully aware of the problems of Pacers.
> 
> They rode Pacers in the SW, in Wales, in the Midlands, in the North. They easily clocked up as many miles in them in those couple of months as northern commuters do in a year. The idea that Vicky and Geoff don't meet the bar to opine on Pacers is frankly absurd.
> 
> PS: as I've said, Geoff doesn't like Pacers, and Vicky's genuine and informed liking of Pacers was played up for the cameras.


What are you actually trying to say? Are you claiming that Pacers are great trains? Because "Vicky loves them"? 

I'm seriously missing your point.

From the objective engineering point of view those "trains" are obsolete pieces of crap technology. They were outdated from the day one. No amount of "love" from Youtube filmmakers is going to change it. 

Remember, they make videos which should be attractive for the viewers. Like all those explorers who travel across the Amazon. They also often "love it". Which doesn't mean that sanitary conditions in, let say Manaus, are great. Just because filmmakers "love it"

And please stop implying me bigotry or prejudice. I actually like their YT channel and I like Geoff enthusiasm and "geekery". That doesn't mean that I have to subscribe to every single opinion they voice.


----------



## sotonsi

Stuu said:


> Messing up their filming schedule and being late for work are very different things - were they in any danger of getting fired if their schedule went wrong?


No - worse than that - another day on Pacers :lol:

Someone running late for work can make up 30 seconds (and I've only found two people via google sacked for what they claim is train delays - in 2016, in London and France, and thus nothing to do with Pacers), but that 30 seconds often meant an hour's delay for Geoff + Vicki - an hour which they had to spend looking at timetables and rerouting (so still working).

The idea that there weren't stakes, that they can't opine legitimately, is just _ad hominem_ - attempting to discredit them because of their job, rather than engaging with their views.


geogregor said:


> Are you claiming that Pacers are great trains? Because "Vicky loves them"?


Not at all - I'm attacking this idea from you that Vicki's like of them isn't a valid opinion.


> And please stop implying me bigotry or prejudice.


Give arguments for why Vicki is not allowed to legitimately like Pacers that aren't rooted in prejudice or bigotry about her occupation or address, and I won't call you out on it!


> That doesn't mean that I have to subscribe to every single opinion they voice.


No - but nor does anyone have to subscribe to your opinion that Pacers are terrible just because they weren't working a typical job and live in London.

That is my point - not that you aren't entitled to your opinion, but that Vicki is entitled to hers.


----------



## Stuu

sotonsi said:


> Someone running late for work can make up 30 seconds (and I've only found two people via google sacked for what they claim is train delays - in 2016, in London and France, and thus nothing to do with Pacers), but that 30 seconds often meant an hour's delay for Geoff + Vicki - an hour which they had to spend looking at timetables and rerouting (so still working).
> 
> The idea that there weren't stakes, that they can't opine legitimately, is just _ad hominem_


_'Looking at timetables and rerouting'_ oh the sheer horror, how did they cope!

Which part of '_*it is not their proper full time job*_' are you struggling with the most? How much financial loss would they have suffered as a result of a train not turning up? I have worked in terrible jobs which if you aren't there on the dot mean they won't pay you for the first hour or some nonsense, thankfully a long time ago for me but not for thousands of others. But of course some bloke arsing about on YouTube is just as 'real'.

Lots of people have lost roles especially agency-type jobs as a result of repeated lateness. Why that would ever be recorded on the internet I do not know. I can name several personally, obviously the papers of record chose not to interview them so it never happened :bash:


----------



## sotonsi

Stuu said:


> Which part of 'it is not their proper full time job' are you struggling with the most?


Clearly you don't get the idea that it's bigoted bollocks that they are not entitled to their opinion because you don't think their job at the time was 'real' and so the 100s of hours they racked up on Pacers wasn't 'real', as you keep insisting on using this _ad hominem_ argument.


> How much financial loss would they have suffered as a result of a train not turning up?


About £80 and another few hours work each, for missing a connection - as I said, even 30 seconds delay was enough to insert an extra day to their schedule at times, whereas even for the grittiest northerner walking 10 miles t'pit to work a shift before school can deal with arriving 30 seconds late.


----------



## Stuu

sotonsi said:


> Clearly you don't get the idea that it's bigoted bollocks that they are not entitled to their opinion because you don't think their job at the time was 'real' and so the 100s of hours they racked up on Pacers wasn't 'real', as you keep insisting on using this _ad hominem_ argument.
> About £80 and another few hours work each, for missing a connection - as I said, even 30 seconds delay was enough to insert an extra day to their schedule at times, whereas even for the grittiest northerner walking 10 miles t'pit to work a shift before school can deal with arriving 30 seconds late.


Why do you struggle with the concept of other people having different opinions to you? I simply disagree with the idea that making a video for f*cking YouTube is the same as struggling to get to work to support a family. It isn't. 

They weren't catching the same train day in day out for years, which is what normal commuters do. They were not in any sense experiencing that. Their schedule may have been messed up for one day. But the next day they would have been 10s if not 100s of miles away and it would all be forgotten. Meanwhile Dave Snaithwaite and his whippet are still waiting for the ******* trains.

No one mentioned gritty northerners, pits or any other bits of the Yorkshiremen sketch, apart from you


----------



## geogregor

sotonsi said:


> Give arguments for why Vicki is not allowed to legitimately like Pacers that aren't rooted in prejudice or bigotry about her occupation or address, and I won't call you out on it!


Vicki might like whatever she likes. It doesn't change the fact that the Pacers are outdated and obsolete technology which should be send to scrap long time ago.

I know we live in times where "everyone should be entitled to an opinion" but hopefully you won't argue that I should seriously consider opinions of those who claim that, for example, earth is flat?

Vicky might like the sound or smell of Pacers, she might feel nostalgic for some imagined old good times, fine by me. But she is not an engineer, she doesn't have a clue about maintenance regime of modern trains, about technical requirements and specifications etc. Everyone might have opinion, sure, but not everyone's opinion matter equally. Sorry.



> No - but nor does anyone have to subscribe to your opinion that Pacers are terrible just because they weren't working a typical job and live in London.
> 
> That is my point - not that you aren't entitled to your opinion, but that Vicki is entitled to hers.


My opinion doesn't matter, I'm just a random bloke on a random internet forum. What matters is that most of specialists and people in the railway industry know that Pacers are awful piece of kit and wish to get rid of them ASAP. Despite some enthusiasts "loving them" 

BTW, just to make it clear, I still like their YouTube channel 

Oh, what's your opinion about Pacers?


----------



## EMArg

*London: Blackfriars Railway Station*


----------



## EMArg

^^


In HD:


----------



## redstarcastles

Clapham Junction and the South:


707 002 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018


456 015 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018


455 718 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018


450 086 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018


450 100 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018


159 011 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018
In SWR livery.


455 912 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018


159 006 Clapham Junction 14 July 2018


377 626 East Croydon 14 July 2018

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-London-Trip-Southern-Rails/


----------



## EMArg

* St. Pancras International *


----------



## EMArg




----------



## EMArg

^^


In HD:


----------



## geogregor

Coincidentally I was at neighboring Kings Cross station on Thursday, on my way to Ely:


DSC01230 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I'm catching Great Northern to King's Lynn:

DSC01232 by Geogregor*, on Flickr 


DSC01239 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01234 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01236 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01241 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01710 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01712 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01713 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01714 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Ashtonian

Hi Geogregor, great photos. Was the HST bound for for Aberdeen/Inverness?


----------



## geogregor

Ashtonian said:


> Hi Geogregor, great photos. Was the HST bound for for Aberdeen/Inverness?


Thanks for good words. Unfortunately I didn't check the destination of that HST set.

Today a few shot from Chichester. Completely different climate from grand London terminals 


DSC00361 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00364 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00366 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00751 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 313 Southern do Brighton:

DSC00753 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00754 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00756 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00758 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Catching class 377 Southern do London Victoria:

DSC00759 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

And even more rural Arundel:


DSC00781 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00784 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Some evening shots on the way back to London.

Cosy waiting room closed:

DSC01214 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01215 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Nice flowers everywhere:

DSC01217 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01218 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01220 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01222 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## EMArg

*London: King's Cross Station*


----------



## EMArg




----------



## EMArg

^^


In HD:


----------



## EMArg

*London Waterloo Station*


----------



## EMArg




----------



## EMArg

^^


In HD:


----------



## Manhai

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bjg2h9/inside-out-north-west-10092018

*An Inside Out railway special live from the National Railway Museum in York. A unique collaboration by three regional BBC Inside Out programmes from across the north of England examines the crisis-hit railway services across the north.*


----------



## geogregor

Delivery of latest trains spotted at York over two days:


DSC04782 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04781 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC04780 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03588 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03587 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03583 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03582 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03581 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Paul Bigland

I spent most of last week at the massive Innotrans rail fair in Berlin, Germany. Items of UK interest included Siemens Class 717 for Moorgate services, one of the new Stadler 4-car bi-modes for Greater Anglia and also one of the new Glasgow subway trains (also from Stadler). You can find the pictures in this gallery;

https://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p192874246


----------



## Paul Bigland

This week Scotrail have taken the first 3 of the 16 strong fleet of Class 314 EMUs out of traffic. After nearly 40 years of service they're being replaced by a cascade of trains which is being facilitated by the arrival of the new Hitachi Class 384 units.


Here's a pictorial blog of their life and times. https://paulbigland.blog/2018/09/26/the-end-of-the-line-for-scotrails-class-314-emus/


----------



## redstarcastles

*Manchester and North West Pictures - August 2018*


350 410 Manchester Piccadilly 19 August 2018


175 109 Manchester Piccadilly 19 August 2018


185 122 departs Manchester Piccadilly 19 August 2018


150 128 Manchester Victoria 19 August 2018


142 089 Manchester Victoria 19 August 2018

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Manchester-North-West-August-2018/


----------



## geogregor

York Station:
Pacer 

DSC03542 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03544 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 185 in TransPenninne Express Livery:

DSC03546 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03550 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03551 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03553 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03554 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03557 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## doc7austin

St. Pancras is a beautiful station in the UK.


----------



## doc7austin

A video report on taking the Abellio Scotrail between Glasgow and Inverness via Aberdeen.






Enjoy!


----------



## Zack Fair

^^ If that's your video, very well done! I love traveling by train in Scotland :cheers:


----------



## doc7austin

Yes, all videos where shot by me.


----------



## cheehg

doc7austin said:


> Yes, all videos where shot by me.


Yes I saw many YouTube videos you uploaded there.


----------



## geogregor

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-45864908

It ain't pretty...



> Rail passengers have been delayed on more than half of all services from 10 of Britain's busiest stations this year, research has found.
> 
> Manchester Oxford Road took the "undesirable crown" of performing worst, according to Which?
> 
> It found York, Gatwick Airport and Birmingham New Street all saw less than 40% of trains arrive on time.





> Using data from performance tracking site On Time Trains, the group found 68% of services were delayed at Manchester Oxford Road, rising to 77% during peak times.
> 
> The city's two largest stations, Piccadilly and Victoria, also suffered a high percentage of late services.
> 
> A Which? spokesman said the "timetable chaos earlier this year", caused by the implementation of new schedules by train operator Northern, had had "dire knock-on effects for [Manchester] passengers' personal and professional lives".
> 
> The data also showed the percentage of service cancellations at each station.
> 
> London King's Cross saw the highest rate of cancellations - 6% - while Manchester Oxford Road and Gatwick Airport were once again among the worst performing.


----------



## da_scotty

What defines "late" in the UK?


----------



## AlexNL

"PPM stands for Public Performance Measure (PPM), we use it to measure punctuality. It is the proportion of trains that arrive at their final destination within five minutes of their timetabled arrival (or 10 minutes for long distance operators)."

Source: ORR


----------



## k.k.jetcar

In Switzerland the train (or rather the passenger's final destination arrival time) is considered late when it greater than three minutes from the scheduled time. This tighter guideline is necessary as the Swiss timetable is designed on a clockface or "cyclic" schedule, where train and bus services are integrated for easy transfers. 



> Unlike most European rail systems, in Switzerland it is the passengers that are punctual not the trains. Passengers are considered punctual if they not only arrive less than three minutes late but also make all their connections.
> 
> In addition, most countries in Europe consider a train punctual if it is less than five minutes late – in neighbouring Austria it is five minutes and 29 seconds, in Germany five minutes and 59 seconds.
> 
> Judged on the five-minute criterion, 96.8% of Swiss trains would have been punctual in 2014, compared with 96.7% in Austria and 94.5% in Germany.


*note this is from 2014, source:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/railways-on-a-roll_swiss-trains-judged-even-more-punctual/41211786


----------



## Negjana

In Austria the threshold is 5 minutes 30 seconds.


----------



## geogregor

Electrification in Scotland is progressing well:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEGIP


----------



## purple_cat

^^At least it's progressing!

(Unlike in the North of England...)


----------



## flierfy

Britain is special not least because of its railway on sea:


----------



## EMArg

From *London* to *Manchester* on train


----------



## geogregor

Some shots from my travels around Kent on Southeastern Railway

First trip to Herne Bay. Changing in Gravesend for class 395 going London St Pancras to Ramsgate:

DSC01721 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01722 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Herne Bay:

DSC01723 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01724 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Looking towards London:

DSC01726 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 465 (Networker) their life is probably slowly coming to an end. Once the new franchise is finally agreed there should be announcement of fleet replacement:

DSC01727 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01730 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Herne Bay ticket hall 

DSC01731 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Class 395 in Faversham:

DSC01997 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Faversham again, class 375:

DSC02002 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 395, going towards Whitstable:

DSC02003 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02004 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Whitstable, our train leaves for Ramsgate:

DSC02007 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02008 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Faversham, two sets of class 375 ready for coupling:

DSC02282 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 395 heading towards London St Pancras:

DSC02285 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02287 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

On the way to Kent again

DSC02376 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Just before Gravesend. We are heading on the North Kent mainline underneath HS1 and approaches to Ebbsfleet International 

DSC02385 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Gravesend, on the left terminating platform "0":

DSC02699 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Few more shots of class 395 in Gravesend:

DSC00508 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00509 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00510 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00511 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

In recent years Thamslink is making inroads to near Kent, here their class 700:

DSC00512 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

395 in Strood 

DSC00513 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## EMArg

*Manchester Piccadilly Station*


----------



## EMArg

^^


In HD:


----------



## EMArg

*Manchester: Oxford Road Station*


----------



## EMArg

^^


In HD:


----------



## ScouseinManc

Great photos EMArg


----------



## geogregor

Suburban London.

Hither Green:

DSC02819 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02820 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02846 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02848 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Penge East:

IMG_20190121_081534068_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20190121_081626022_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20190121_081942388 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20190121_082504662_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20190121_083022182_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Rebuilding of Glasgow Queen Street Station:
https://twitter.com/NetworkRailGQS/status/1089471290803662848


----------



## Neb81

nidave said:


> there is also the Class 143 - I am pretty sure they are classed as a pacer as well.


Yep, both Pacers. There 141, 142 and 143 are all Pacers, just built by different manufacturers. The 141 was built by British Leyland, and is no longer used in Britain. Most were exported to Iran, and a few wound up in Malaysia. I remember one sitting derelict in the sidings outside the old JB train station - aparantly it was used as a shuttle from JB to a resort outside of town.

The 142s look veeery similar to the 141 but were built in house by BREL, and remain in service.

The 143s look quite different from the front (the right hand one above), and were built by Hunslett. The 144 looks just like the 143 but was built in house by BREL. Both are still in service. 

The last time I used a pacer was in Devon on the Exmouth-Paignton run on the 143/144s. It's a pretty grim experience, even on a beautiful run like that. All the Pacers are built on the same undercarriage design initially intended by BREL for a new freight wagon.


----------



## AlexNL

There's also a Class 144, which are all operated by Northern. 23 of those have been built, 10 of them are 3 car units which is very unusual for a Pacer unit.


----------



## geogregor

A few shots from Kings Cross, I was collecting someone last night:

DSC03743 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03750 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 180 Hull Trains (on the right)

DSC03751 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03752 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 180 Grand Central (left):

DSC03754 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03759 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03761 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03765 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## rogerfarnworth

Great Pictures of King's Cross. Thank you.


----------



## rogerfarnworth

AlexNL said:


> There's also a Class 144, which are all opert ated by Northern. 23 of those have been built, 10 of them are 3 car units which is very unusual for a Pacer unit.


I avoid the Pacers here in Manchester if at all possible. They still seem to be a significant part of the fleet in the north of the UK.


----------



## AlexNL

Once the new CAF trains enter squadron service with Northern, the Pacers should be gone rather quickly. They shouldn't be in service in Northern-land in 2020.

Wales on the other hand...


----------



## rogerfarnworth

That would be good news!


----------



## AlexNL

The CAFs should've been in service already but have been delayed due to CAF needing to rectify some issues found during testing, and due to ASLEF not agreeing to the training package proposed by Northern. Once that's resolved training can start so they can enter service later this year.


----------



## rogerfarnworth

Here's hoping!


----------



## rogerfarnworth

*Britain's Lost Railways*

At Christmas 2018, a friend gave me a book by John Minnis entitled 'Britain's Lost Railways'. It would be natural to assume that this was a book about the different lines that have been lost throughout the UK. This is, however, a book about the lost infrastructure that surrounds the railway, particularly about railway architecture. I have written a short review of the book:

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/02/1...memoration-of-our-finest-railway-architecture


----------



## Ashtonian

*Peak rail fares could go under rail price shake-up*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47258909

Traditional peak and off-peak rail fares face the axe under sweeping changes being proposed for the UK's train ticketing system.

The Rail Delivery Group (RDG), which represents train operators, wants to eliminate the "cliff edge" between when peak and off-peak tickets kick in.

It argues that would reduce overcrowding.

Also, tap-in, tap-out rail fares could be expanded beyond London under the proposals published on Monday.

The RDG's wish list of reforms is based on some 20,000 submissions on how the UK railways could be improved.

Transport Focus, the independent passenger watchdog which also worked on the consultation, said UK train operators currently offered an "outdated and outmoded fares and ticketing system".

*Fair fares*
Feedback from commuters found eight out of 10 want the fares system overhauled and nine out of 10 want smart or electronic tickets, with the potential for price capping.

The Rail Delivery Group said reforms would support tap-in, tap-out fares, a pay-as-you-go method used in London, and more integration with other modes of transport.

In London, tube and rail commuters can use contactless bank cards to automatically pay fares which are calculated based on where a passenger enters and exits the network.

Reform would mean updating regulations around peak and off-peak travel, Rail Delivery Group said, and ticket prices could be set more flexibly. This would reduce overcrowding, it said.

Paul Plummer, chief executive of the Rail Delivery Group, said customers have different needs and want changes that offer value and better reflect changing work habits.

"Rail companies are already working together on plans for real world trials so people can see what our proposals could mean for them".

*All change*
Mr Plummer said rail companies needed the government to change rules on how train fares are charged.

"Current regulation needs to be updated and we want to work with government, which is key to making improvements a reality, to deliver the better fares system the public wants to see."

The government is currently undertaking the Rail Review which is covering everything from commercial contracts to rail fare structures. Its consultation closes at the end of May.

The Rail Delivery Group said its ideas could be rolled out, train operator by train operator, in as little as three years.

Darren Shirley, chief executive of the Campaign for Better Transport, said the existing system is "broken and desperately needs fixing".

"We're particularly pleased to see proposals for more flexible commuter tickets to reflect modern work patterns, something we've long called for, and for nationwide smart ticketing.

"What's not clear however, is if these proposals will also lead to an end to the annual fares rise, which fails to reflect the level of service passengers receive the previous year.

"It is now up to the Government to take forward these proposals to ensure we have a fares system that is fairer and easier to use."

Another proposal is to stop passengers having to buy split tickets to get the cheapest fares for some journeys.

*Analysis*
Tom Burridge, BBC transport correspondent

How to reform the railways is a contentious, some might say politically toxic subject right now. A broad Government-commissioned review into almost every aspect of the system is ongoing.

Our out-dated and mind-bogglingly complicated ticketing system is a prime candidate for change. The system is, in the eyes of many, inherently flawed.

How can an off-peak single sometimes cost a fraction less than a return? And how can it be that you get different prices for exactly the same journey and fare?

Technology is clearly a big part of the solution. But a tap-in, tap-out system which automatically ensures you the best fare for your journey is also partly about restoring trust. The t-word has become a precious commodity on the tracks of late, after a whole host of problems.

The underlying message from train companies today is that they are on the side of passengers. They want to shunt the government towards positive change.

More types of flexible fares is one thing, but cost and who pays will, as always, be almost every passenger's central concern.

To make the proposals 'revenue neutral', as the operators plan, cheaper fares would have to be off-set by more expensive ones. That is, unless the changes drive more people to travel by train, especially on more empty off-peak services.

The initial mood music from those representing passengers is broadly positive. But some fear there could be winners and losers.

Even with the support of Government, one industry source said real change might not arrive for another three to five years.

My Comment: Sounds good but the TOCs depend on the massive price differential between peak and off peak fares. Turkeys and Christmas spring to mind. I feel the off peak fares will rise to meet peak fares not vice versa.


----------



## Manhai

Obviously the above is just talk for the moment, but it's great that this is being discussed at a level that might make a difference.

I don't know about peak and off-peak, but "tap-in, tap-out fares, a pay-as-you-go method used in London, and more integration with other modes of transport" would be a huge step forward.


----------



## tavon

rogerfarnworth said:


> I avoid the Pacers here in Manchester if at all possible. They still seem to be a significant part of the fleet in the north of the UK.


Scotland didn't have Pacers.


----------



## rogerfarnworth

tavon said:


> rogerfarnworth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I avoid the Pacers here in Manchester if at all possible. They still seem to be a significant part of the fleet in the north of the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> Scotland didn't have Pacers.
Click to expand...

You are correct. I should have said 'England' rather than 'the UK'.


----------



## geogregor

A few shots from around Plumstead in SE London:


DSC05913 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05914 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05922 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05924 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC05927 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Mac_07

Trains at Clapham Junction


----------



## Vaud

^^ The video is really cool, but the author says that Clapham Junction has 2,000 trains per day, making it the busiest station in Europe. This may be taken from wikipedia which states that "_Each day about 2,000 trains, over half of them stopping, pass through the station, more than through any other station in Europe_". I don't know about whether this is the busiest station in Europe, particularly considering that Zürich HB alone is served by more than 2,900 trains per day... Seems to me like potentially one more of these grand, baseless British statements.


----------



## TedStriker

Vaud said:


> Seems to me like potentially one more of these grand, baseless British statements.


I'm a Brit who is very familiar with Clapham Junction and I also have wondered about the assertion that it is the busiest station in Europe. I'll ask the Swiss forum if anyone has any data for Zurich.


----------



## stingrayj

Manhai said:


> What train are you talking about exactly? because aren't some of Thameslink's old rolling stock being transferred to the north?
> 
> 
> 
> If you're talking about the class 319, I've taken those a few times between Liverpool and Manchester and I agree with the seating issue for sure.




the new carriages. returned via tube and Southern today, far more civilised. 

*can someone answer why it still takes so long for trains to traverse london bridge etc on thameslink? i thought this line was supposed to be revamped


----------



## Stuu

stingrayj said:


> the new carriages. returned via tube and Southern today, far more civilised.
> 
> *can someone answer why it still takes so long for trains to traverse london bridge etc on thameslink? i thought this line was supposed to be revamped


The track and signals have been replaced, but it's still the same twisty alignment with a mostly 30mph speed limit and very closely spaced stations. There is no chance of it getting any faster.

Thameslink trains from Brighton are semi-fast so will always be a bit slower... but I would have thought that there was a fair amount of luck involved with timings in order to cross London and get on a train at Victoria and get in earlier, I don't see you could ever save more than 5-10 minutes


----------



## rogerfarnworth

*The Sheffield, Ashton-under-Lyne & Manchester Railway*

This post is about one of my local railway companies, which is long-gone as an independent entity, but which was responsible for the building of the first Woodhead tunnel. 

This is a very short reflection on how the struggles of this smaller company ultimately left the Great Central Railway (GCR) with its own financial struggles! 

It may not be without controversy.

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/05/04/the-sheffield-ashton-under-lyne-and-manchester-railway-4

To keep the post itself brief, the detail is carried in Appendices. In those Appendices is a significant story about the financial management of the GCR.


----------



## rogerfarnworth

*Narrow Gauge in Caithness, Scotland*

We crossed back from Orkney today and drove via John O'Groats and Wick before heading south through Inverness. About 6 miles north of Wick on the A99 we drove over a narrow gauge (metre-gauge) line. This was a surprise and it needed to be investigated. .... This post is the result.

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/05/11/caithness-double-track-narrow-gauge-line


----------



## LSTyke

LNER launches its Hitachi built AZUMA trains today on the London - Leeds - London service. The BBC reports https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-48268860 .


----------



## rogerfarnworth

*The Shropshire & Montgomeryshire Light Railway and the MoD Nesscliffe Training Area
*
Apologies for the long title for this thread. I was challenged by someone who read my posts about the Bicester Military Railway and about MoD Kineton to look at the Nescliffe Camp.

I have started by looking at the feeder railway which was commandeered by the military and this has become a post in its own right. I will get round to the military areas in the next post in the series.

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/05/1...nesscliffe-mod-training-area-and-depot-part-1


----------



## rogerfarnworth

*Railways in Orkney*

This is, I think, likely to be my last post about the railways in Orkney. It has been prompted by finding a secondhand copy of Wilfred Simms book. 

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/05/18/the-railways-of-orkney-part-3


----------



## kokomo

Hi everyone!
I was watching I think one of the latest videos by Geoff Marshall and he was mentioning the retirement of GWR's HST (Class 43). Were those the latest operational or are there still any other up and running in the UK?
Thanks


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## wbrm

Still quite a lot operational. Even with GWR, the video is just about the last service out of Paddington , altough shortened ("HST GTi"). ScotRail has taken over some ex-GWR and runs them in a shortened formation as well. Further operators include XC and EMT. Also LNER but not for long as class 800/801 came in service just recently.
The mk3 coaches even have new doors fitted to meet new PRM standards.


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## redstarcastles

156 439 Glasgow Central 24 February 2019


380 114 Glasgow Central 24 February 2019


390 044 Glasgow Central 24 February 2019


220 001 Glasgow Central 24 February 2019


318 259 Partick 24 February 2019


318 258 departs Partick 24 February 2019


334 013 & 334 023 Partick 24 February 2019


385 103 Glasgow Queen St 24 February 2019


156 457 at Glasgow Queen St 24 February 2019


365 525 Stirling 24 February 2019


43 316 Stirling 24 February 2019


92 018 Edinburgh Waverley 24 February 2019


170 crosses the Forth Bridge 25 February 2019


43 306 Dalmeny 25 February 2019


385 008 Haymarket 25 February 2019


90 042 Edinburgh Waverley 25 February 2019


68 006 Edinburgh Waverley 25 February 2019

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Scotland-February-2019/


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## geogregor

Some shots from south London, namely from between Shortland and Bromley South stations.

Class 377 Southeastern heading towards Kent:

DSC02553 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Thameslink class 700 heading north:

DSC02560 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

View towards Shortlands station, the same Thameslink as above:

DSC02561 by Geogregor*, on Flickr



DSC02565 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Another Thameslink class 700, this one is heading to Sevenoaks or Orpington

DSC02573 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 465 heading towards Victoria. Networkers are really ageing. Mostly used for suburban services,

DSC02575 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02576 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02578 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

3 in 1. Cass 465, 700 and 377:

DSC02579 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02582 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Beginning of so-called Catford Loop, with Ravensbourne station visible:

DSC02586 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Main line to London Vitoria:

DSC02589 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Junction where Catford Loop and line towards Victoria diverge, here seen looking in the "down" direction, towards Shortlands. This junction was grade separated when Eurostars were using this route on their way to London Waterloo International:
DSC02590 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02591 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

More Views towards London Victoria, Beckenham Junction station in the distance:

DSC02596 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Plenty of class 465 on this line:

DSC02597 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02598 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02600 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02605 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Towards Shortlands again:

DSC02607 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Mac_07

Video about Waterloo station:


----------



## Nexis

*Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe and MIA*


----------



## 437.001

*Electrification in Britain*

If I remember correctly, these are the latest completed electrifications in Britain.
Am I missing any? Is it all correct?

_*<Manchester/Liverpool area>*_

- Newton-le-Willows - Manchester Victoria (Chat Moss Line): completed 2013 
- Liverpool Edge Hill - Huyton - Earlestown (Chat Moss Line): completed 2015
- Huyton - Wigan North Western: completed 2015
- Manchester Victoria - Bolton - Preston: completed 2017
- Ordsall Chord (Manchester Deansgate - Manchester Victoria): completed 2017
- Preston - Kirkham & Wesham - Blackpool North: completed 2018

*<Glasgow/Edinburgh area>*

- Edinburgh – Glasgow via Falkirk High: completed 2017 
- Cumbernauld - Falkirk Grahamston: completed 2018
- Edinburgh – Glasgow via Shotts: completed 2019 

*<Great Western Main Line & branch lines>*

- London Paddington/Hayes & Harlington - Reading - Didcot: completed 2018 
- Didcot - Swindon - Bristol Parkway: completed 2019
- Reading - Newbury: completed 2019

*<Greater London area>*

- Gospel Oak - Barking: completed 2018 

*<Birmingham/West Midlands area>*

- Barnt Green - Bromsgrove: completed 2018 
- Walsall - Rugeley Trent Valley: completed 2019

===========================================================

And, as far as I know, there are works or plans to electrify the following:

_*<Manchester/Liverpool area>*_

- Bolton - Wigan North West

*<Greater London area>*

- London Paddington - Bond Street - Tottenham Court Road - Farringdon - London Liverpool Street - Whitechapel - Stratford (Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, new line)
- Whitechapel - Canary Wharf - Custom House - Woolwich - Abbey Wood (Crossrail/Elizabeth Line, new line)

*<Great Western Main Line & branch lines>*

- Swindon - Bath - Bristol Temple Meads
- Bristol Parkway - Cardiff
- Didcot - Oxford

*<Midland Main Line & branch lines>*

- Bedford - Kettering - Market Harborough
- Kettering - Corby

^^
Is it all correct? Am I missing something?


----------



## Stuu

The Swindon-Bristol and Didcot-Oxford bits aren't confirmed yet.

In Scotland, the line from Falkirk to Dunblane and Alloa has already been electrified.

Some/all of the route Manchester/Huddersfield/Leeds/York will be, but contracts not signed yet


----------



## 437.001

*READING STATION -fully electrified-*

Filmed and uploaded this late March 2019.

It feels great to see that now most trains at Reading are electric.

You can still spot a few intercity 125. But what will they do with them? scrapyard? cascaded elsewhere? 
Because I see that most services are already done with the new bi-mode rolling stock, even the ones to the Cotswolds... 

You can still spot a few diesels - the cross-country services and the regional trains to Basingstoke and further down the Berks & Hants line, or to Guildford in Surrey.

And of course the electric 3rd rail trains to London Waterloo. Note how the platforms with 3rd rail don't have OHLE/catenary.

You can also spot how most trains now have their "new" *GWR* livery. Some things just never die.


----------



## 437.001

*SWINDON STATION -fully electrified-*

What a sight. Swindon was (and still is?) the core of the GWR. "Paddington speaks only to Swindon, and Swindon speaks only to God".
Today it is special because here most trains heading to Bristol Temple Meads via Bath, Cheltenham or Gloucester, change their mode from electric to diesel.
And the other way around for trains coming from those destinations and heading to London Paddington, they change here from diesel to electric.


----------



## 437.001

*NEWBURY STATION -fully electrified-*

Newbury station is on the Berks & Hants Line (the line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury and Castle Cary), used by most trains from London Paddington to Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance (and Torquay and Paignton too?).
The electrification from London and Reading ends here, so the new bi-mode trains change their mode here too, from electric to diesel for those heading to Devon or Cornwall, and from diesel to electric for trains heading to London.
Note the fully electric EMUs for regional services to Reading (and also a few services to London Paddington).


----------



## 437.001

*BRISTOL PARKWAY STATION -electrified-*

This is the current end of the Great Western electrification.
The next section to be electrified, from here to Cardiff, including the Severn Tunnel, is still in works. 
Bristol Parkway, located north of the city, is not the Bristol main station, that is Bristol Temple Meads.
However, Bristol Parkway is a busy interchange station, one of the most important in South Western England.
Certain trains coming from Wales heading to London Paddington change their mode here from diesel to electric, and the other way around.


----------



## 437.001

*DIDCOT PARKWAY STATION -electrified-*

Didcot Parkway is one of the most important stations between London and Bristol.

The Cherwell Valley Line starts here, and runs to Oxford, then Aynho Junction, where it joins the Chiltern Main line from London Marylebone to Banbury, Warwick, and Birmingham Snow Hill.
All trains from London Paddington to Oxford and beyond diverge here, and as you can see in the video, many use the avoiding line as they are non-stop. 
The Cherwell Valley line was to be electrified from here to Oxford, but this has been postponed with no date.

You can also tell how many long distance trains are non-stop, and how not all long distance trains use the electric mode. If someone could explain this, thanks.

Lastly, a good number of regional services from London Paddington terminate here.


----------



## 437.001

*LONDON PADDINGTON STATION*

Tons of trains, and many more pantographs up than several years ago.


----------



## 437.001

*OXFORD STATION*

Oxford station was upgraded a few years ago to make room for the new Chiltern services to/from London Marylebone via Bicester Village and High Wycombe.
Two extra bay platforms were added.

Sadly, the much-awaited electrification between Oxford and Didcot has been postponed, so the new bi-mode GWR trains to/from London Paddington via Didcot and Reading get here on diesel mode.


----------



## 437.001

*ISLIP STATION*

Islip station is on the Oxford to Bicester Line, which was a part of the old Varsity Line (which used to run from Oxford to Cambridge). 
It was upgraded a few years ago when the Oxford to Bicester Line was doubled and completely upgraded as part of the Evergreen plan of Chiltern Railways, which included a chord from Bicester Village station to the Chiltern Main Line with the aim to create services from Oxford to London Marylebone via Bicester and High Wycombe.

There is also the plan by East-West Rail to reopen the long-closed sections from Bicester Village to Claydon Junction and Bletchley (of the Varsity Line), and also the section from Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Claydon Junction (of the Great Central Main Line), with the aim to create new Oxford-Bletchley-Milton Keynes, Oxford-Bletchley-Bedford, and London Marylebone-Aylesbury-Bletchley-Milton Keynes services. 
Let's hope that these sections get reopened soon.

Islip is a small station, and many trains here are non-stop.


----------



## 437.001

*WIGAN NORTH WESTERN STATION*

Wigan North Western station is on the West Coast Main Line, and three other lines get here, one coming from Liverpool via St Helens Central, one coming from Manchester via Atherton, and one coming from Manchester via Bolton.
There is also the neighbouring Wigan Wallgate station, with further trains to Manchester via Bolton or via Atherton, some of which continue on to Southport or Kirkby.

Note that the line to Liverpool via St Helens Central has been recently electrified, and the line to Bolton is being electrified, too.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> You can still spot a few intercity 125. But what will they do with them? scrapyard? cascaded elsewhere?
> Because I see that most services are already done with the new bi-mode rolling stock, even the ones to the Cotswolds...
> 
> You can still spot a few diesels - the cross-country services and the regional trains to Basingstoke and further down the Berks & Hants line, or to Guildford in Surrey.
> 
> And of course the electric 3rd rail trains to London Waterloo. Note how the platforms with 3rd rail don't have OHLE/catenary.


Everything out of Paddington is now electric/bi-mode. GWR are keeping some of the HSTs and running them as 4 carriages with power cars on each end for regional services in the south west. Scotrail is doing similar, although i think they are 5 carriages... the rest will probably be scrapped, they are at least 40 years old now


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> You can also tell how many long distance trains are non-stop, and how not all long distance trains use the electric mode. If someone could explain this, thanks.


Two possible reasons: the bi-mode trains can have problems which mean they are only allowed to run on diesel. And if the train is made of two sets then both units have to be run on diesel. Partly this is because of the cost overruns, so the depot at Swansea doesn't have electric wires which means they cannot repair and test electric faults, so the trains have to go out on diesel power

The second reason is that there is a bridge west of Didcot which is protected heritage, and there are ongoing arguments about whether it should be demolished and rebuilt. As it hasn't been, there is a speed limit for electric trains, so trains not stopping at Didcot will switch to diesel before getting to the bridge. They then switch back to electric east of Didcot where there is a specially monitored section for doing that at full speed

And about East-West Rail, that is going through the planning process, and should start construction next year. Assuming there isn't an outbreak of civil war before then...


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Everything out of Paddington is now electric/bi-mode.


Including the London-Oxford and London-Bedwyn local services?



Stuu said:


> GWR are keeping some of the HSTs and running them as 4 carriages with power cars on each end for regional services in the south west. Scotrail is doing similar, although i think they are 5 carriages... the rest will probably be scrapped, they are at least 40 years old now


Old indeed. But they've served well.



Stuu said:


> Two possible reasons: the bi-mode trains can have problems which mean they are only allowed to run on diesel. And if the train is made of two sets then both units have to be run on diesel. Partly this is because of the cost overruns, so the depot at Swansea doesn't have electric wires which means they cannot repair and test electric faults, so the trains have to go out on diesel power


Do you think these cost overruns are dodgy?



Stuu said:


> The second reason is that there is a bridge west of Didcot which is protected heritage, and there are ongoing arguments about whether it should be demolished and rebuilt. As it hasn't been, there is a speed limit for electric trains, so trains not stopping at Didcot will switch to diesel before getting to the bridge. They then switch back to electric east of Didcot where there is a specially monitored section for doing that at full speed


But if it's already electrified, then why is there a speed limit? Listed or not, what's the problem exactly? Are the wires too low?



Stuu said:


> And about East-West Rail, that is going through the planning process, and should start construction next year.


It feels like forever. The triangle Bicester-Milton Keynes (Bletchley)-Aylesbury shouldn't have lost the railway.
By the way, would a chord at Claydon Jcn to make the direct move Aylesbury-Oxford feasible be realistic?


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Including the London-Oxford and London-Bedwyn local services?


I don't think there are any local services to Oxford at the moment. People have to change at Didcot. The Bedwyn services should be bi-mode now, although there were issues with cameras for opening the doors so they might not be running yet



437.001 said:


> Do you think these cost overruns are dodgy?


No, the original estimates were hopelessly optimistic, there were loads of things which went wrong. The masts were supposed to be installed by a train which would drill the holes, install the masts and add the brackets for the wires all in one go. It didn't work. They also found that the signalling cables were nowhere near where they were on the plans, so had to do lots of digging by hand to find them



437.001 said:


> But if it's already electrified, then why is there a speed limit? Listed or not, what's the problem exactly? Are the wires too low?


There is a level crossing near the bridge, so the wire changes height very quickly from the crossing to the bridge, quicker than the pantographs are designed to work if they were at line speed so it needs a speed restriction




437.001 said:


> It feels like forever. The triangle Bicester-Milton Keynes (Bletchley)-Aylesbury shouldn't have lost the railway.
> By the way, would a chord at Claydon Jcn to make the direct move Aylesbury-Oxford feasible be realistic?


No, not really. But it was one of many lines that disappeared, at the time it made sense I guess. It's hard to see now how backwards train travel seemed at the time, maybe now it would be like trying to convince everyone that in the future they will sending post instead of SMS or something. 

I don't see why a chord there couldn't happen one day, I don't know if it has been suggested before


----------



## 437.001

*CAB RIDE*

*From Oxford to London Marylebone*. [1h 04min]
Calling at Oxford Parkway, and Bicester Village.
The train uses the recently-built Bicester chord that now allows direct services to London Marylebone from Oxford. 
From Oxford to Bicester it runs on the Oxford to Bicester Line (a remainder of the Varsity Line), and from Bicester to London it runs on the Chiltern Main Line. 
Uploaded in 2017, you can see how there were still works at Oxford station.


----------



## 437.001

*CAB RIDE*

*From London Marylebone to Birmingham Moor Street*. [1h 42min]
Calling at Bicester North, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, and Solihull.
The train follows the full length of the Chiltern Main Line.
Uploaded in 2017.


----------



## 437.001

*CAB RIDE*

*From London Marylebone to Aylesbury (via Amersham)*. [53min]
Calling at Amersham, Great Missenden, Wendover, and Stoke Mandeville.
The train follows the Metropolitan Railway Line. 
Note also how the train uses the stretch between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham of the London Underground (Metropolitan Line). 
I don't know if it's just me, but I got the impression that the trains can't run as much as they could between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham, and I guess that this is perhaps due to sharing the infrastructure with the Underground.
Uploaded in 2016.


----------



## 437.001

*CAB RIDE*

*From London Marylebone to Aylesbury (via High Wycombe)*. [1h 01min]
Calling at Gerrards Cross, Seer Green & Jordans, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe, Saunderton, Princes Risborough, and Monks Risborough.
The train follows the Chiltern Main Line from London to Princes Risborough, and then the single-track Princes Risborough to Aylesbury Line.
By the looks of it, the sections between Princes Risborough and Monks Risborough and between Little Kimble and Aylesbury mustn't be in very good state.
Uploaded in 2016.


----------



## 437.001

*CAB RIDE -heritage-*

*From Aylesbury to Quainton Road*. [20 min]
On a class 121 bubble car.
The train runs on the Metropolitan Railway Line.
It didn't call at Aylesbury Vale Parkway, or Waddesdon (that would have been a bit hard to do! ).
At 4:30, note the sign _"Trains to Claydon Obtain Token"_. :hmm: Does this include trains not reaching Claydon Jcn?
At 7:52, Aylesbury Vale Parkway station, current end of the regular passenger service. Note the sign _"Commencement of Token Section"_.
At 15:40, the remains of Waddesdon station can be seen on the left.
At 18:10 (and till the end of the video), Quainton Road station. The station is now a railway museum, as you can see in the video.

This whole section, and beyond on the Great Central Main Line to Claydon Junction, is supposed to be reopened for regular passenger service as part of the East West Rail plan, which should see regular passenger service from Aylesbury to Bletchley (Milton Keynes), so the line will have to be resignalled and upgraded, as right now it's great for heritage railway, but quite unfit for modern passenger service. I don't know if it will be re-doubled (it used to be in the past). And the biggest question is... if they reopen, what will happen to Quainton Road station? :sly:


----------



## 437.001

*CAB RIDE*

*From Brighton to Bedford (via Quarry Tunnel, Streatham, Herne Hill, Elephant & Castle, and Farringdon)*. [2h00min]
Calling at Hassocks, Burgess Hill, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport, East Croydon, London Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon, 
London St Pancras (low level), West Hampstead Thameslink, St Albans City, Harpenden, Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Leagrave, Harlington, and Flitwick.
Along most of the Brighton Main Line (fast lines), and part of the Midland Main Line. 
This is a Thameslink service.

You can tell the following: 
-upgrade works between London and St Albans.
-catenary/OHLE and 3rd rail coexist between City Thameslink and Farringdon.
-the old King's Cross Thameslink station, closed since 2007. In it, a section of electrification with rigid catenary starts, running into St Pancras station.
-the new class 700 EMUs (the train from which the video is filmed is one of them).


----------



## Paul Bigland

Northern Rail showed off their new Class 331 electric trains to the media yesterday. Here's a blog and pictures from the event. https://paulbigland.blog/2019/06/28/rolling-blog-new-trains-for-northern/


----------



## 437.001

^^
I think I saw this train on a video of a cab ride from Zaragoza to Canfranc (Spain).
They were at Zuera station, iirc.
Hang on for a few minutes, I'll go and find it.

Edit: I remembered well indeed, look at 32min:20s *HERE*. They must have been sent there for some tests.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> I don't know if it's just me, but I got the impression that the trains can't run as much as they could between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham, and I guess that this is perhaps due to sharing the infrastructure with the Underground.
> Uploaded in 2016.


Yes that's right, I believe the speed is limited to 60mph on the Underground tracks. I guess because of the signalling, as there's plenty of places with different speed limits for different trains


----------



## rogerfarnworth

BR Standard Steam Locos. ...

1951 was the year of the Standard Steam Locomotive. The Railway Magazine of the time focussed on the development of these locos. Rather than just looking backwards to those days, it is good to listen to and read things from the perspective of the time!

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/07/08/british-standard-steam-locomotives


----------



## geogregor

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2019/07/08/gatwick-airport-train-station-to-get-150m-upgrade/



> The Department for Transport has given the go-ahead for Costain to carry-out a £150m upgrade of Gatwick Airport train station.
> 
> *Station improvement works will start in spring 2020 and will take around two years to complete.
> *
> The project has been on the cards for several years with Costain involved in the planning and design stages.
> 
> Stewart Wingate, Chief Executive Officer, Gatwick Airport said: “Gatwick has been transformed in recent years and the redesigned train station will take the airport’s redevelopment to the next level by providing a seamless transition between the airport and the station, more lifts, escalators and a doubling in the size of the concourse.
> 
> “The project is a fantastic example of the public and private sector working together to deliver a world-class transport hub.”
> 
> The renovation will be managed by Network Rail who have awarded the contract to Costain.
> 
> Alex Vaughan, Costain chief executive officer, said: “Costain’s extensive capability to deliver complex programmes, using leading edge smart technology, will ensure travellers are kept moving at every stage of the works, minimising disruption during this capacity-critical redevelopment.”
> 
> Gatwick Airport Ltd and Coast to Capital Local Enterprise Partnership are co-funding the project with £37m and £10m respectively.







http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/gatwick-airport-station-to-undergo-150m-upgrade


> The train station at Gatwick Airport will receive £150m in funding to widen the platforms and double the station’s concourse, the Department for Transport (DfT) has announced.
> 
> *The renovation aims to reduce delays to services and stop platform overcrowding, and will also add five new lifts and eight escalators to the station.*





> Stewart Wingate, chief executive at Gatwick Airport, said:
> 
> “The new station will complement the huge improvements to rail services at the airport, which includes new fleets of Gatwick Express and Thameslink trains and *services that now leave the airport for London every three minutes.*





> The number of people using Gatwick Airport station each year has grown by six million since 2010.
> 
> Currently the station is not designed for the high volume of daily passengers, who are often carrying bulky luggage.


----------



## nidave

tgk300 said:


> HS2 in theory might be a good idea for bringing us onto the same level as Japan, France etc. but in reality, it's just another major infrastructure project to pump up Londons backside and unless you're rich & have interests in London, *it's totally uselss to the average person*. It only serves major cities so those in smaller cities still have to get a connection by which point they could of caught a normal train. It may be good if it's built, but I think that it will be a flop just because of the likley price hikes that will no doubt be charged for the premium of "high speed" travel.


I am an average person - it will be really good for me to get a seat every time when I go south (or north) to see my bf. 

You are complaining about a connection - care to elaborate as not every town or city is connected to every other directly via rail. 



> I think that it will be a flop just because of the likely price hikes that will no doubt be charged for the premium of "high speed"


Where is your evidence for this - can you provide one credible source. 

You seem to be the one who can see things others cant, after all without *any* insider knowledge or any sources of information other than "It may be good if it's built" you are able to make all these predictions and know more then those in charge. You might want to apply for a job.

You are fool and really not worth the time I spent making this reply.


----------



## nidave

Duplicate


----------



## MarcVD

In fact, come to think of it, the case of HS2 is very similar, in many respects, to the french case that led to the construction on the Paris Lyon HSL around 1980. And there is no reason why it couldn't be equally successful.


----------



## TER200

MarcVD said:


> In fact, come to think of it, the case of HS2 is very similar, in many respects, to the french case that led to the construction on the Paris Lyon HSL around 1980. And there is no reason why it couldn't be equally successful.


Except Paris and Lyon are about 400 km apart. The average trip on the HSL (I am not saying on the HST) is thus much longer on this route than it would be on HS2.
The _LGV Nord Europe_ (about 200km from Paris to Lille, 300 to Bruxelles and a bit more to London) serves distances which are more similar to the british case, I think. And this line was very far from meeting its profitability expectations (partly because they were much overestimated because of the success of the 21 previous HSLs).


----------



## 437.001

*International Railway Journal* (July 11, 2019)



> *Operators resist plans for sharp increase in HS1 access charges
> 
> OPERATORS using the High-Speed 1 (HS1) link between London and the Channel Tunnel have reacted with frustration to plans for a significant increase in track access charges on the route.*




*International Railway Journal* (July 31, 2019)



> *No-deal Brexit could force temporary suspension of Eurostar services
> 
> FRENCH National Railways (SNCF) warns in its first-half results for 2019 that it could be forced to temporarily suspend Eurostar services linking London, Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam if the British government decides to leave the European Union (EU) on October 31 without a deal as the new British prime minister Mr Boris Johnson has threatened.*


----------



## Svartmetall

TER200 said:


> Except Paris and Lyon are about 400 km apart. The average trip on the HSL (I am not saying on the HST) is thus much longer on this route than it would be on HS2.
> The _LGV Nord Europe_ (about 200km from Paris to Lille, 300 to Bruxelles and a bit more to London) serves distances which are more similar to the british case, I think. And this line was very far from meeting its profitability expectations (partly because they were much overestimated because of the success of the 21 previous HSLs).


But Edinburgh to London is further. Eventually it makes total sense to extend to Edinburgh/Glasgow. That would cut down a huge number of unnecessary domestic flights to London between the two.


----------



## Stuu

TER200 said:


> Except Paris and Lyon are about 400 km apart. The average trip on the HSL (I am not saying on the HST) is thus much longer on this route than it would be on HS2.
> The _LGV Nord Europe_ (about 200km from Paris to Lille, 300 to Bruxelles and a bit more to London) serves distances which are more similar to the british case, I think. And this line was very far from meeting its profitability expectations (partly because they were much overestimated because of the success of the 21 previous HSLs).


The distance is pretty much irrelevant, as if it mattered then Belgium wouldn't have built it's HSLs. The reason for HS2 is the lack of capacity on the existing network. If you are building a new line then it makes sense for it to be for the non-stopping services. This then leaves the existing routes, which go through the middle of towns, for the stopping services. 

Once you have decided on a new route for non-stop trains, it makes sense for them to be high speed as the difference in cost is more than made up by the difference in the benefit obtained


----------



## Fatfield

HS2 delayed for up to 5 years due to increased costs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49563549


----------



## Stuu

Fatfield said:


> HS2 delayed for up to 5 years due to increased costs.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49563549


Not quite correct, it's been delayed and will cost more, but it's not delayed because of the cost


----------



## Sunfuns

I worry that this project will be a casualty of a chaotic Brexit.


----------



## Stuu

Sunfuns said:


> I worry that this project will be a casualty of a chaotic Brexit.


If there is a chaotic brexit, HS2 will be the least of my worries

But also it is exactly the sort of project which could be used to stimulate growth, so I don't think brexit is a direct threat


----------



## tgk300

Are we all still in support of HS2 with 5 years of delays and an astronimical cost of 88bn? When will people see sence and just cancel it. It was over prices at 50 odd billion in 2015 and is even more over priced at 88bn in 2019. Don't think that 88bn will be the final number as in 5 years time this and that will of happend and the suddently in will be 100 plus billion. The price only goes up, not down. HS2 will be another Crossrail; over priced and behind schedule. Although Shapp as well as others have suggested an Old Oak common terminus instead of a London Euson one to try and reduce cost, which may or may not make it's already thin if not non existant business case slightly better and maybe make it worth the hassle. By the time 2022, 3, 4 or 5 comes round the cost will have jumped again. I know you all support HS2 which is fair enough as we are entitled to our own opinions, but let me ask you this, what happens if spend 100+ billion and it is a failure, it does not have the partonage it needs and is not profitable? What happens then? I am not looking for an arguement, nor a fight, I am purley intersted to know peoples reasons for their support, especially after this price hike and delay. Also, faster journey times is not a valid arguement as many parts of the country can only dream of a few hundered miles in a few hours and don't even get the luxury of 125mph, let alone 250mph.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Are we all still in support of HS2 with 5 years of delays and an astronimical cost of 88bn?


What alternative solution would you propose which is quicker to build, cheaper, and delivers similar benefits? I agree it's an absolutely stupid number, but it seems to be accepted that infrastructure in the UK costs multiples of what it does elsewhere. Therefore any alternative is likely to cost something absolutely stupid as well


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> What alternative solution would you propose which is quicker to build, cheaper, and delivers similar benefits? I agree it's an absolutely stupid number, but it seems to be accepted that infrastructure in the UK costs multiples of what it does elsewhere. Therefore any alternative is likely to cost something absolutely stupid as well


Don't build anything like it, 88bn is and unacceptable cost and, like I have said before, will rise to well on 100bn after all the delays and problems have been paid for that will no doubt occur. You cannont spend that type of money on a line when the current route could have its platforms extended for longer trains. Or even better, upgrade it to 140mph, all this can be done at a fraction of the cost. Yes, ok, It may not provide all the benefits and all the capacity but it will be far cheaper and then the money can be spent on far more imporant infrastruture projects.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Don't build anything like it, 88bn is and unacceptable cost and, like I have said before, will rise to well on 100bn after all the delays and problems have been paid for that will no doubt occur. You cannont spend that type of money on a line when the current route could have its platforms extended for longer trains. Or even better, upgrade it to 140mph, all this can be done at a fraction of the cost. Yes, ok, It may not provide all the benefits and all the capacity but it will be far cheaper and then the money can be spent on far more imporant infrastruture projects.


Do you think those options weren't considered? Upgrading the WCML in the early 2000s cost £9bn, which is probably at least £15bn now allowing for the inflation rate in construction. Most of that cost was spent on fixing the backlog of maintenance. 

Knocking down big parts of towns would be needed to add capacity on existing lines, which would be unpopular, incredibly disruptive, and far costlier than you might expect. And still doesn't deliver all the capacity or benefits

£88bn is obviously a big pile of money, however it is only 4% of one year's GDP, to be spread over about 20 years is really not that big a deal. Also bear in mind that a big chunk of that gets back to the Treasury anyway, a study on the Jubilee Line Extension showed that 47% of the cost was eventually returned via one form of tax or another


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Do you think those options weren't considered? Upgrading the WCML in the early 2000s cost £9bn, which is probably at least £15bn now allowing for the inflation rate in construction. Most of that cost was spent on fixing the backlog of maintenance.
> 
> Knocking down big parts of towns would be needed to add capacity on existing lines, which would be unpopular, incredibly disruptive, and far costlier than you might expect. And still doesn't deliver all the capacity or benefits
> 
> £88bn is obviously a big pile of money, however it is only 4% of one year's GDP, to be spread over about 20 years is really not that big a deal. Also bear in mind that a big chunk of that gets back to the Treasury anyway, a study on the Jubilee Line Extension showed that 47% of the cost was eventually returned via one form of tax or another


88bn is still 88bn, no matter how much you wish to sugar coat. The money can be better spend on areas on the country desperatlyu in need of investment, such as the north. I have no issues with HS2 between Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester and whereever elese it eventuallyt leads too, the problem I have with it is that it goes to London as well. "the north needs transport infrastructure", has turned into "the north needs transport infrastructure to get to London", which it does not. Intercity services between northern cities is need, i'm not denying that, but the fast track route to London is not needed. If we could build all the phases of HS2 apart from the first bit from London to Birminghamm, then that would be better. London has the transport infrastructure and investment and does not need more where as the North of England as well as Devon and Cornwall, do need it.


----------



## Negjana

How utterly childish.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> ...the problem I have with it is that it goes to London as well. "the north needs transport infrastructure", has turned into "the north needs transport infrastructure to get to London", which it does not.


Can you provide statistics to back this opinion up? Some sort of source to explain it.

One of the major reasons for building HS2 is to provide more freight capacity on existing routes. The most congested section is the the southern WCML, full of trains heading to the north from the container ports. How does not building the southern section help that?


----------



## geogregor

Stuu said:


> Can you provide statistics to back this opinion up? Some sort of source to explain it.
> 
> One of the major reasons for building HS2 is to provide more freight capacity on existing routes. The most congested section is the the southern WCML, full of trains heading to the north from the container ports. How does not building the southern section help that?


I don't know why you keep asking him any serious questions. Guy clearly have issue with London. He would probably oppose HS2 as long as it goes anywhere near London, regardless the cost.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Can you provide statistics to back this opinion up? Some sort of source to explain it.
> 
> One of the major reasons for building HS2 is to provide more freight capacity on existing routes. The most congested section is the the southern WCML, full of trains heading to the north from the container ports. How does not building the southern section help that?


It is just to expensive for what it is. Its nice to know that there is 88bn available for this fancy railway, but when we need investment here down in Devon where our railway is getting battered by the sea, the government pot for the railway is empty. Isn't that convienant.


----------



## DaeguDuke

tgk300 said:


> I hope not. You would get all sorts of people coming over here from Europe and we certainly don't want that.



Jesus wept, of course you’re a UKiPer xenophobe, that explains so much.


----------



## da_scotty

Just sigh, sigh.

Same thing with the Dutch Eurostart trains, we could have quick trains but no, we have to hassle due to the uk not wanting to have a checkpoint on it's own grounds.

Then again "we don't want those people", tell that to the EU-cities who get tons of British stag/henparty's (Amsterdam/Prague etc.). Wish we could close the border for that too.

OT:

The UK has the "luck" that a lot of it's big cities are on two (east/west coast North South) lines, making investment easier. A HS2/HS3 would improve inter UK travel as well, not only London travel.


----------



## tgk300

DaeguDuke said:


> Jesus wept, of course you’re a UKiPer xenophobe, that explains so much.


Or, I just don't want to allow streams of people in that don't belong here and could have any kind of past or intentions.


----------



## Rational Plan

DaeguDuke said:


> Jesus wept, of course you’re a UKiPer xenophobe, that explains so much.


I think he was actually being ironic.


----------



## nidave

Rational Plan said:


> I think he was actually being ironic.


Consing the reply was




tgk300 said:


> Or, I just don't want to allow streams of people in that don't belong here and could have any kind of past or intentions.


Not sure he was being ironic.


----------



## geogregor

Rational Plan said:


> I think he was actually being ironic.


I don't think so.

His argumentation matches average UKiPper.

Something along the lines:

_"British railways are great, like everything in Britain. We don't need all those nasty foreign concepts, like high speed rail. 

All Britain need is a bit of investment in existing railways, like coat of paint here and there, and a few new benches on slightly longer platforms. 

Once we kick all the nasty foreigners out there will be plenty of spare capacity"_

:troll:


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> His argumentation matches average UKiPper.
> 
> Something along the lines:
> 
> _"British railways are great, like everything in Britain. We don't need all those nasty foreign concepts, like high speed rail.
> 
> All Britain need is a bit of investment in existing railways, like coat of paint here and there, and a few new benches on slightly longer platforms.
> 
> Once we kick all the nasty foreigners out there will be plenty of spare capacity"_
> 
> :troll:


Well there is a massive generalisation if I have ever seen one. Although, if you worked it out correctly, that last point could be true.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Well there is a massive generalisation if I have ever seen one. Although, if you worked it out correctly, that last point could be true.


I didn't mean to click like your post. As I don't...

This is not the forum for such views, the Daily Mail is here


----------



## joeyoe121

Uh oh someone picked up Meine Kampf instead of Railways Weekly :lol: :lol: 

Back to railways: 

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/gwr-launching-new-timetable-including-3299446 - new GWR timetable will see some non-stop trains from Bristol to London in 68 minutes, down from around 1 hour 35 mins - pretty dramatic decrease!


----------



## tgk300

joeyoe121 said:


> Uh oh someone picked up Meine Kampf instead of Railways Weekly :lol: :lol:
> 
> Back to railways:
> 
> https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/gwr-launching-new-timetable-including-3299446 - new GWR timetable will see some non-stop trains from Bristol to London in 68 minutes, down from around 1 hour 35 mins - pretty dramatic decrease!


Yes, also, they have somehow found the space to terminate some services from London Paddington at Exeter St Davids, which is a station that is very stretched in terms of capacity.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> I didn't mean to click like your post. As I don't...
> 
> This is not the forum for such views, the Daily Mail is here


Not sure why you linked me to the Daily Mail.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Not sure why you linked me to the Daily Mail.


Because that is a more appropriate place for the discussion of the rights and wrongs of immigration, this subforum of this site certainly isn't the place

Anyway, some actual news is that Wales has this afternoon finally got an electrified railway, as the electrification between Bristol Parkway and Newport was turned on today, although it won't see any actual electric trains for a bit


----------



## capslock

tgk300 said:


> Not sure why you linked me to the Daily Mail.


Because on the evidence of your posts, you're clearly close-minded, racist, xenophobic, unable to comprehend how the world works outside your village and generally not very bright.

Pretty straightforward really.


----------



## da_scotty

Shall we leave the troll alone and talk about trains?


----------



## tgk300

capslock said:


> Because on the evidence of your posts, you're clearly close-minded, racist, xenophobic, unable to comprehend how the world works outside your village and generally not very bright.
> 
> Pretty straightforward really.


What's wrong with holding my opinions firm?


----------



## tgk300

da_scotty said:


> Shall we leave the troll alone and talk about trains?


 I am not a troll, in fact I am quite the opposite. I don't like trolls, especailly those who take an abusive approach and/or those who go out of their way to stir things up and cause people harm and I certainly don't like the type involved in extreme cases such as with Jesy Nelson (you may of heard of her). All that I am saying, is that I don't really want a rail system between the UK and France that anyone can just jump on and travel without any kind of checks. I am aware that the Eurostar has passport control, but when I used it recentlty it felt half hearted and very easy to abuse if one wanted too. If there were avaiation levels of checks for both identity, and the contents of baggage at both ends to track who is entering and exiting the country, then I would not have a problem with such a scheme. Who knows what people would bring over. Who knows where these people have come from and what their intentions are once they arrive. That is my two cents worth and I feel as though my nervousness about such a project is justified based of off the above points. Now that I have said my final points I wish to cease the convocation on this topic, not least because it has an infinitesimal relevance to the main subject, but also that it is showing me to be something that I am not. 

Any chance of going back to trains?


----------



## aquaticko

^^Mate, you're the one who started the whole thing about "all sorts of people". Which, by the way, is such an arbitrary and shifting exclusionary category. Do you cower at strangers in the street, who "could have any kind of past or intentions"? Ought we abrogate roads, then? After all, people drive on them who "could have any kind of past or intentions"? How about gaps in the hedges? Or doors? After all, who knows what could walk through them? Slippery slope, I know, but I'm just trying to operate on the same level.

I bet you don't fear like that, because that kind of broad-based fear is irrational and impractical. Not sure when or what it's going to take to get through to people of your mindset that just about everyone in the world is more-or-less identical to you--going about their lives, trying to create utility for themselves without seriously impinging upon other people (because doing so would complicate, and therefore increase required effort).

Don't play all high-and-mighty when you're the one who first brought the conversation to this.

Mods ought to delete the whole last page of this thread.


----------



## tgk300

aquaticko said:


> ^^Mate, you're the one who started the whole thing about "all sorts of people". Which, by the way, is such an arbitrary and shifting exclusionary category. Do you cower at strangers in the street, who "could have any kind of past or intentions"? Ought we abrogate roads, then? After all, people drive on them who "could have any kind of past or intentions"? How about gaps in the hedges? Or doors? After all, who knows what could walk through them? Slippery slope, I know, but I'm just trying to operate on the same level.
> 
> I bet you don't fear like that, because that kind of broad-based fear is irrational and impractical. Not sure when or what it's going to take to get through to people of your mindset that just about everyone in the world is more-or-less identical to you--going about their lives, trying to create utility for themselves without seriously impinging upon other people (because doing so would complicate, and therefore increase required effort).
> 
> Don't play all high-and-mighty when you're the one who first brought the conversation to this.
> 
> Mods ought to delete the whole last page of this thread.


So you are ok with just opening the doors and letting everyone in? Why don't you let the general public wonder around your house if you think everyone's intetion behind entering is positive and in the countries best interest.

As for you comment about cowering at strangers, while it may seems stupid it is actually sensible not to trust strangers who apporach us, why do you think we teach kids "stranger danger"? I will tell you why, it's because someone can seem nice on the outside but the complete opposite on the inside. If you want to trust everyone that you see and assume that they have good intentions then go for it, but if it all goes wrong, then bigger fool you. 

If someone comes up to me in the street even to ask the time and I pull out my phone to check it, I am squeezing the phone hard as well as being ready with my other hand. You never know, It could be a coordinated mugging.


----------



## aquaticko

^^Oh boy, what it is to live in your head. 

-Even living in America, in a part of the country hit hard by the opioid epidemic, I do, in fact, tend to keep my doors and windows unlocked at night.

-We teach children about stranger danger because they are poor judges of people. The point is not to blanketly and blindly trust everyone around you, but also to not assume every person is a potential threat, because unless you live in an active war zone or extremely high-crime area, they aren't. 

Working in healthcare for about a decade, I've come to have reaffirmed repeatedly my opinion that the only people who are a real threat are either desperate or desperately afraid. That you are obviously the latter is all that needs to be said.

You're not going to win this argument; I know you probably can't see it, but the history of the past century disagrees with your perspective (let's just ignore the irony of an _Englishman _worried about keeping _foreigners _out of _his _country), and the logic does, too.


----------



## tgk300

aquaticko said:


> ^^Oh boy, what it is to live in your head.
> 
> -Even living in America, in a part of the country hit hard by the opioid epidemic, I do, in fact, tend to keep my doors and windows unlocked at night.
> 
> -We teach children about stranger danger because they are poor judges of people. The point is not to blanketly and blindly trust everyone around you, but also to not assume every person is a potential threat, because unless you live in an active war zone or extremely high-crime area, they aren't.
> 
> Working in healthcare for about a decade, I've come to have reaffirmed repeatedly my opinion that the only people who are a real threat are either desperate or desperately afraid. That you are obviously the latter is all that needs to be said.
> 
> You're not going to win this argument; I know you probably can't see it, but the history of the past century disagrees with your perspective (let's just ignore the irony of an _Englishman _worried about keeping _foreigners _out of _his _country), and the logic does, too.


An arguement can only have one winnner, and in this case that certainly isn't you. I am well aware of the fact that 99.999% of those we come across in life are not out to harm you, but the day you meet the 0.001% and you aren't ready, you will regret it. The events of the past century have little relevance as I was not around to influence said events so that rarther invalidates that point of yours. You think that being aware of potential threats and taken the nesssary precations make me 'desperately affraid'? I have meet the 0.001% who are out to get you and It was only because I am cautious that I managed to keep my phone, wallet and keys. You may not of met the 0.001%, but god help you if you do as your trust everyone attitude certainly won't help you.


----------



## redstarcastles

Some pictures from Greater Manchester in July 2019:

195 ad at Manchester Victoria 14 July 2019


195 116 Manchester Piccadilly 16 July 2019


70 008 Manchester Piccadilly 16 July 2019


390 039 Manchester Piccadilly 16 July 2019


66 419 Manchester Piccadilly 16 July 2019


142 028 Manchester Piccadilly 14 July 2019

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-Greater-Manchester-July-2019/


----------



## Paul Bigland

New blog. A look at the first 3 BR built Class 60s locomotives that have just been sold for scrap. https://paulbigland.blog/…/more-old-br-locos-head-for-scrap/


----------



## redstarcastles

This time pictures from the Midlands:


43 060 Leicester 10 August 2019
& 43 059


43 089 & 222 001 Leicester 10 August 2019


172 005 Yardley Wood 10 August 2019


68 011 Solihull 10 August 2019


139 001 Stourbridge Town 10 August 2019


323 208 Bournville 11 August 2019


350 232 Birmingham International 11 August 2019


390 047 Birmingham International 11 August 2019

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneEurope/RSE-UK-Midlands-August-2019/


----------



## 437.001

redstarcastles said:


> This time pictures from the Midlands:
> 
> 
> 139 001 Stourbridge Town 10 August 2019


^^
What is this little thing? And what does it do?


----------



## zzelenika

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139

Flywheel-powered railbus/peoplemover for branch lines.


----------



## M-NL

437.001 said:


> ^^
> What is this little thing? And what does it do?


Starting at about the 3 minute mark:


----------



## Paul Bigland

Now that the scrapping of the old BR Pacer fleet has begun in earnest with 142005 and 142044 arriving at Booth's scrapyard in Rotherham, I thought it was a good time to repost this blog looking back at their lives and times over the years. https://paulbigland.blog/2018/01/12...for-pacer-trains-so-heres-a-pictorial-review/


----------



## RyukyuRhymer

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...on-london-birmingham-manchester-a9237701.html



> On the average Saturday night, platform 2 of London Euston station is rarely a party location. And the calling points of the 9.42pm to Wolverhampton are hardly the stuff to inspire a great journey: Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby ….
> 
> Yet 7 December 2019 will become part of railway history, remembered as the day that the longest-running and most successful train operating franchise reached the end of the line.
> 
> Plenty of Virgin Trains staff as well as rail enthusiasts were at the terminus for the last scheduled trip for Sir Richard Branson’s rail franchise.
> 
> One passenger even gave three of the train crew a huge farewell card, reading “Thank you Virgin 1997-2019”.
> 
> From now on they will be wearing new uniforms, showing their employer to be Avanti – the joint venture between FirstGroup of Aberdeen and Trenitalia of Rome that has won the West Coast main line franchise until 2031.


----------



## RyukyuRhymer

*LNER's Azuma trains poised to reach Inverness*
https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...lners-azuma-trains-poised-to-reach-inverness/

Azuma trainsets will operate on LNER’s London King’s Cross-Inverness service from December 9.

It was widely expected LNER’s Azumas trainsets would operate the Highland route to Inverness some time this month, and now the actual date has been confirmed by local media.

Because the mainlines north of Edinburgh are not electrified, the Inverness service will, like Aberdeen, be operated by a bi-mode (electric/diesel power) trainset.

News of the Inverness Azuma launch follows hard on the heels of Aberdeen last month.

Currently LNER operates a single daily through service between King’s Cross and Inverness and this will remain when the Azuma is deployed.

Journey time is around eight hours and schedules are:

departs King’s Cross at 1200, arrives into Inverness at 2005
departs Inverness at 0755, arrives into King’s Cross at 1549

At other times travellers change at Edinburgh and take Scotrail onwards to Inverness.

I realise that few business travellers would want to spend eight hours on a train.

The benefit of rail over such a long distance is that it allows travellers to embark/disembark at intermediate stops – for example, York to Gleneagles or Inverness, Newcastle to Perth or Inverness and so on. Such journeys cannot easily be accomplished by air.

The Azuma trains will replace LNER’s 40-year old diesel trains, some of which will be transferred to East Midlands Railway.


----------



## rogerfarnworth

1948 - British Railways

I have recently purchased the six copies of The Railway Magazine which were issued in 1948. The first of these coincides with the formation of British Railways, and the January/February 1948 issue of the magazine highlights for the readers a little of the history of railways in Britain which led up to that momentous occasion. The linked article below builds on the article in The Railway Magazine.

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2019/12/09/british-railways-1948



> A copy of the article is reproduced in Appendix 1 to this article.
> 
> The Railway Magazine was not alone in seeing the 1st January 1948 as a significant landmark in railway history. The Guardian carried an article on 30th December 1947 which said: "Of all the landmarks in Britain's railway history, January 1 1948 will probably be outstanding. It is over a hundred years since railway nationalisation was first advocated. Since then enthusiasts for State ownership have never ceased to proclaim the benefits to be obtained, though in 1867 Sir Rowland Hill in a minority report as a member of a Royal Commission on Railways gave a warning of the "undue enlargement of expectation". The clamour became louder towards the end of last century when the trade unions took it up strongly and after the first world war nationalisation nearly became a fact. Since then the pressure has continued to grow, culminating in the Transport Act of last August which provided for the transfer of the railways to the State on January 1. Thus after more than a century of controversy the decision has been taken."


----------



## 437.001

RyukyuRhymer said:


> *LNER's Azuma trains poised to reach Inverness*
> https://www.businesstraveller.com/b...lners-azuma-trains-poised-to-reach-inverness/
> 
> [...]
> 
> The Azuma trains will replace LNER’s 40-year old diesel trains, some of which will be transferred to East Midlands Railway.


I suspect the old HST's are being scrapped, aren't they?

===============================================

On the other hand, the other day I saw pics of Wellingborough station on the Midland Main Line.
The Midland Main Line is being electrified from Bedford to Kettering, including the branch line from Kettering to Corby. 
Later on, if all goes well, electrification might be extended from Kettering to Market Harborough.

Any other update on electrifications?
GWML and branch lines? Northern Hub? South Wales? Scotland?


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> I suspect the old HST's are being scrapped, aren't they?
> 
> ===============================================
> 
> On the other hand, the other day I saw pics of Wellingborough station on the Midland Main Line.
> The Midland Main Line is being electrified from Bedford to Kettering, including the branch line from Kettering to Corby.
> Later on, if all goes well, electrification might be extended from Kettering to Market Harborough.
> 
> Any other update on electrifications?
> GWML and branch lines? Northern Hub? South Wales? Scotland?


The HSTs are being temporarily transferred to the MML while the new trains are built. They have been updated to meet the new rules for disabled access which come in from January, the existing ones haven't

No updates on any more electrification - although both main parties are promising infrastructure spending so whoever wins tomorrow there should be some good news eventually


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> The HSTs are being temporarily transferred to the MML while the new trains are built. They have been updated to meet the new rules for disabled access which come in from January, the existing ones haven't
> 
> No updates on any more electrification - although both main parties are promising infrastructure spending so whoever wins tomorrow there should be some good news eventually


Since when was electrification good news?


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Since when was electrification good news?


Since it's first practical demonstration in 1879


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Since it's first practical demonstration in 1879


Personally, I would rather stick with diesel stock and then buy new DMU's as the current ones become life expired. The C02/passenger km for a modern DMU with a diesel engine is low anyway.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Personally, I would rather stick with diesel stock and then buy new DMU's as the current ones become life expired. The C02/passenger km for a modern DMU with a diesel engine is low anyway.


Electric trains are cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain and last longer. They produce no pollution at source, the biggest issue with diesel engines is particulates which are damaging to human health. Electrification is the best solution, which is why every advanced country uses it


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Electric trains are cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain and last longer. They produce no pollution at source, the biggest issue with diesel engines is particulates which are damaging to human health. Electrification is the best solution, which is why every advanced country uses it


That maybe true, but they diesel trains don't require OHLE, track lowering, bridge rebuilding and sub stations. Thankfully, in my area we are 20 years away from electrification so I can still have diesel for a few years yet. The particulates are damaging to human health, but the amount that diesel trains produce are negligble compared to road vehicles so It doesn't bother me.


----------



## Svartmetall

Yes, slower accelerating, noisier, more polluting, more difficult and expensive to maintain and your argument is about having a chance to renew the rail network. No wonder Britain has such crumbling infrastructure with such arguments...


----------



## tgk300

Svartmetall said:


> Yes, slower accelerating, noisier, more polluting, more difficult and expensive to maintain and your argument is about having a chance to renew the rail network. No wonder Britain has such crumbling infrastructure with such arguments...


There is nothing wrong with a bit of noise, and I don't really care about the pollution. As I have said, I am fortunate to live in an area where electrification is years away.


----------



## Svartmetall

tgk300 said:


> There is nothing wrong with a bit of noise, and I don't really care about the pollution. As I have said, I am fortunate to live in an area where electrification is years away.


There is everything wrong with a "bit of noise" for those who are either on the train or live by the train lines. Plus, what a nice selfish individual you are to not care about pollution at all. Particulate matter around tracks is a major issue.


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> There is nothing wrong with a bit of noise, and I don't really care about the pollution. As I have said, I am fortunate to live in an area where electrification is years away.


Sometimes when I read such comments I think British people simply deserve the railway we have (I'll be diplomatic and won't use word shitty)...

Why not keep Pacers for another 20 years? There are perfectly nice wee little trains :troll:

New trains? What for? Faster trains? What for? Quieter trains? What for?

Actually I have genuinely brilliant idea, let's bring the steam back!!


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> There is nothing wrong with a bit of noise, and I don't really care about the pollution. As I have said, I am fortunate to live in an area where electrification is years away.


This is one of the stupidest, most selfish sentences I have read on this forum. There are plenty of ways to learn things on the internet, maybe you should take that opportunity?


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> This is one of the stupidest, most selfish sentences I have read on this forum. There are plenty of ways to learn things on the internet, maybe you should take that opportunity?


et: Calm dooooown everybooooody.

He maybe just likes the sound of diesel trains.

Let him be.

Waters are muddy enough as to keep on going even more negative, huh? :hug:

Think of Ribblehead on a sunny spring day, c'mon.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> This is one of the stupidest, most selfish sentences I have read on this forum. There are plenty of ways to learn things on the internet, maybe you should take that opportunity?


Have you ever witnessed two unhealthy class 37's thrashing out of a station? The sight and sound are worth a bit of pollution in my opinion.


----------



## da_scotty

Ok Boomer.


----------



## tgk300

da_scotty said:


> Ok Boomer.


That is a great joke to use if the person you are talking to is over 65, but it is not so good if they're 18. I share the same narrow minded and judemental views of a "boomer", but I am not one of them. Although I wish I was as they did live during the best time where just about any view and opinion went.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Have you ever witnessed two unhealthy class 37's thrashing out of a station? The sight and sound are worth a bit of pollution in my opinion.


Without going full 'won't somebody think of the children'... air pollution is a real problem which leads to the early deaths of thousands of people. I don't think you really mean that your enjoyment is worth shortening other's lives, do you?

As to your comment about 'any view and opinion went', that is the utterest of utter bollocks. People may well have been less restrained in some areas, but they certainly weren't any more free to state whatever opinions they wanted.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Without going full 'won't somebody think of the children'... air pollution is a real problem which leads to the early deaths of thousands of people. I don't think you really mean that your enjoyment is worth shortening other's lives, do you?
> 
> As to your comment about 'any view and opinion went', that is the utterest of utter bollocks. People may well have been less restrained in some areas, but they certainly weren't any more free to state whatever opinions they wanted.


In reply to your first comment, I would say that is has a minimal effect on me seeing as I live in a small city/town and not a mega city like London. Judging by the opinons of older people, It's clear to see that It was a better world back then and freedom of speech was just that. Now days if say you don't like a minority and the police are at your door faster than if you robbed Nationwide. Also, the railway and the trains were better back then. What with coal and heavy diesel power.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> In reply to your first comment, I would say that is has a minimal effect on me seeing as I live in a small city/town and not a mega city like London. Judging by the opinons of older people, It's clear to see that It was a better world back then and freedom of speech was just that. Now days if say you don't like a minority and the police are at your door faster than if you robbed Nationwide. Also, the railway and the trains were better back then. What with coal and heavy diesel power.


Why am I not surprised that is what you meant when you said any view went. You may have had the freedom to make racist comments all day, but that is not the same as free speech. The world has moved on, and most people have got over it

Trains were 'better' perhaps, but the people who worked on them barely made it to retirement before dropping dead, so better for who exactly?


----------



## Svartmetall

The thing is, trains were not better. If one looks back at British rail in the 70s and 80s I would hardly mark it down as "one of the best". Additionally, if one looks at the improvements following the re-nationalisation of the infrastructure, one can see that there have been definite improvements in all things except price. 

I hate to pull the "old person" card, but I do remember some of the bad days, and things now are better. Have other places improved more? The answer is yes, hence why people have a warped opinion on the railways here.


----------



## tgk300

Svartmetall said:


> The thing is, trains were not better. If one looks back at British rail in the 70s and 80s I would hardly mark it down as "one of the best". Additionally, if one looks at the improvements following the re-nationalisation of the infrastructure, one can see that there have been definite improvements in all things except price.
> 
> I hate to pull the "old person" card, but I do remember some of the bad days, and things now are better. Have other places improved more? The answer is yes, hence why people have a warped opinion on the railways here.


Hardly, E/DMU's cannot match the ride quality of LHCS, and unfortunatly for passengers, TOC's are not realising this. Although, thankfully TPE did go for the better option of 68's and MK5's. I still maintain that the only decent trains on the network today are any HST's still in use, Chiltern Railways Class 67's and TPE 68's. The rest are all horrible piles of junk, I mean look at the Class 800's for GWR. You cant call that a train can you. You had a locomotive on everytrain, freight was everywhere, double headed 37's were common. Variety of stock and last but not least, steam was around.


----------



## Svartmetall

As soon as you mentioned steam trains being an efficient linehaul system you lost all credibility. I'll take the EMUs in Japan (yes, all Shinkansen are EMUs), the ICE3 in Germany, the AVE in Spain and even the locomotive TGV in France over anything on our network. You can go back to the golden age of steam if you wish. 

Now that you've managed to derail this thread repeatedly for nonsensical gibberish I would actually ask you to stick to the topic a bit more. Can you at least contribute in some way beyond hackneyed nonsense?


----------



## tgk300

Svartmetall said:


> As soon as you mentioned steam trains being an efficient linehaul system you lost all credibility. I'll take the EMUs in Japan (yes, all Shinkansen are EMUs), the ICE3 in Germany, the AVE in Spain and even the locomotive TGV in France over anything on our network. You can go back to the golden age of steam if you wish.
> 
> Now that you've managed to derail this thread repeatedly for nonsensical gibberish I would actually ask you to stick to the topic a bit more. Can you at least contribute in some way beyond hackneyed nonsense?


I never said anything about steam being an "efficient linehaul system", I just said that it would of been nice to live in a time when they were around. How can you want ICE3, or the TGV over out trains? Nothing wrong with Chiltern 67's, TPE 68's or GA 37's. 

In reply to your last comment about any other contributions, I would say I probably could do that. Have you heard about the early termination of the ScotRail franchise in 2022 as oppose to 2025.


----------



## Svartmetall

tgk300 said:


> I never said anything about steam being an "efficient linehaul system", I just said that it would of been nice to live in a time when they were around. How can you want ICE3, or the TGV over out trains? Nothing wrong with Chiltern 67's, TPE 68's or GA 37's.
> 
> In reply to your last comment about any other contributions, I would say I probably could do that. Have you heard about the early termination of the ScotRail franchise in 2022 as oppose to 2025.


Yep, it was on the news this evening. 

For those that don't know:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50841814


----------



## tgk300

Svartmetall said:


> Yep, it was on the news this evening.
> 
> For those that don't know:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50841814


Makes me wonder if a similiar thing would happen to SWR after its shocking few years as an operator.


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> I never said anything about steam being an "efficient linehaul system", I just said that it would of been nice to live in a time when they were around. How can you want ICE3, or the TGV over out trains? *Nothing wrong with Chiltern 67's, TPE 68's or GA 37's.*


:nuts: Seriously? :nuts:

Those diesel loco hauled sets can't match acceleration and performance of modern EMUs. They are also more expensive to run, less energy efficient, noisier and pollute more. 

That some of the TOCs can't fit proper interiors and decent seats on board of the modern EMUs doesn't change the fact that technologically it is more modern and superior mode of traction.

As for freedom of speech, I can't stop you from claiming that the earth is flat, but it doesn't mean that such statements should be taken seriously or left without reply...


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> :nuts: Seriously? :nuts:
> 
> Those diesel loco hauled sets can't match acceleration and performance of modern EMUs. They are also more expensive to run, less energy efficient, noisier and pollute more.
> 
> That some of the TOCs can't fit proper interiors and decent seats on board of the modern EMUs doesn't change the fact that technologically it is more modern and superior mode of traction.
> 
> As for freedom of speech, I can't stop you from claiming that the earth is flat, but it doesn't mean that such statements should be taken seriously or left without reply...


That maybe true, LHCS has and always will give a superior ride when compared to MU, regardless of whether they are electric or diesel. As for acceleration, you are correct. However, a TPE 68 with mk5's excelerates very quickly. 
Answer this for me, which would you rather ride on, a 2+8 GWR HST, or a 9 car GWR IET?


----------



## Robi_damian

geogregor said:


> :nuts: Seriously? :nuts:
> 
> Those diesel loco hauled sets can't match acceleration and performance of modern EMUs. They are also more expensive to run, less energy efficient, noisier and pollute more.
> 
> That some of the TOCs can't fit proper interiors and decent seats on board of the modern EMUs doesn't change the fact that technologically it is more modern and superior mode of traction.
> 
> As for freedom of speech, I can't stop you from claiming that the earth is flat, but it doesn't mean that such statements should be taken seriously or left without reply...


To be fair, many design options on modern EMUs and DMUs do reduce comfort. I would mention:
- the decision to not separate passenger compartments from main doors (which is horrid in winter)
- or from connecting gangways for that matter (they are always noisy)
- seats are often less ergonomic

Long-haul EMUs like ICE/Talgo/Freccie rolling stock are very good, but Flirt/Talent/Desiro stock is not IMO. And while I would have no issue with them if used for short haul routes only (e.g. under 1 hour), they often end up doing medium-haul.


----------



## NCT

Do not feed the troll.


----------



## DaeguDuke

You know what was really great? Horse power. Glad I don’t live anywhere with those newfangled steam machines


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> Answer this for me, which would you rather ride on, a 2+8 GWR HST, or a 9 car GWR IET?


9 car IET. I find ride quality quite similar to be honest (read poor in comparison with modern continental railways) but automatic doors on the IET stop accumulating delays like HST often did. Simply because people left slam doors open and poor guard had to sometimes pace the whole length of the platform to close the door. That is not happening on the IETs

On top of that IETs in the electric mode have better acceleration and offer shorter journey times. 
And finally they limit pollution, especially in Paddington which used to stink of diesel fumes and excrements (due to open toilets on HSTs). Some might have liked such ambient, I didn't...

No, I definitely don't miss the HSTs. I know that a lot of "anoraks" have certain fondness for those trains but it was time for them to go. They might have been great in 80s or 90s but not at the dawn of third decade of 21st century.




Robi_damian said:


> To be fair, many design options on modern EMUs and DMUs do reduce comfort. I would mention:
> - the decision to not separate passenger compartments from main doors (which is horrid in winter)
> - or from connecting gangways for that matter (they are always noisy)
> - seats are often less ergonomic


But it has nothing to do with the fact that those are EMUs or DMUs instead of the loco hauled stock. It has all to do with the money-pinching British TOCs (and the DfT) ordering particularly low specs interiors. Luckily seats (and wider interiors) might get replaced and upgraded over the years. I expect they will.


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> 9 car IET. I find ride quality quite similar to be honest (read poor in comparison with modern continental railways) but automatic doors on the IET stop accumulating delays like HST often did. Simply because people left slam doors open and poor guard had to sometimes pace the whole length of the platform to close the door. That is not happening on the IETs
> 
> On top of that IETs in the electric mode have better acceleration and offer shorter journey times.
> And finally they limit pollution, especially in Paddington which used to stink of diesel fumes and excrements (due to open toilets on HSTs). Some might have liked such ambient, I didn't...
> 
> No, I definitely don't miss the HSTs. I know that a lot of "anoraks" have certain fondness for those trains but it was time for them to go. They might have been great in 80s or 90s but not at the dawn of third decade of 21st century.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it has nothing to do with the fact that those are EMUs or DMUs instead of the loco hauled stock. It has all to do with the money-pinching British TOCs (and the DfT) ordering particularly low specs interiors. Luckily seats (and wider interiors) might get replaced and upgraded over the years. I expect they will.


The mk3's are without doubt the most comfortable stock currently used by GWR and are miles ahead of the IET's. Slam doors allow windows hanging, something that is unfortunately being lost. Like I have said, I don't live near Paddington, nor any other major terminus station so the pollution arguement is one is wish to ignore. Those "anoraks" have a good point, they were good in the 80's and 90's and are still just as good as we enter 2020. Also, the HST's can handle Dawlish, unlike the IET that got stranded for 2 hours at Starcross yesterday because water had gotten into one of the engines.

Just face it, the UK will NEVER have a railway like those on the continent, not that it worries me.


----------



## otternase

tgk300 said:


> The mk3's are without doubt the most comfortable stock currently used by GWR


I have to admit I must agree with you on that one. But this has nothing to do with the question of electric vs. diesel traction!

Electric traction doesn't mean it has to be an EMU. Quite to the contrary most of high speed trains in continental Europe until recently have been electric traction loco hauled trainsets. For example in Germany locos like BR 103, BR 120, BR 101 have been for a long time the backbone of 200 km/h network togehter with Bmpz coaches. The Austrian ÖBB is operating Railjet trains with ES64 at 230km/h and has just recently procured a new generation of Day and Night coaches for 230km/h operation (ÖBB DaNi, Siemens Viaggio Comfort New Generation). German DB AG as well is currently procuring new coaches from Talgo for the ECx, together with 230km/h locomotives. And Siemens is offering a 230km/h version of the Vectron. And there are also more conservative, but very comfortable coach designs on the market, e.g. the Astra Vagonka coaches, the PKP IC coaches of Poznan works, the new MAV Start coaches.
But not only this, most of High Speed Trainsets in continental Europe have often been not EMUs, but coachsets sandwiched between two disguised electric locomotives, e.g. the ICE1, TGV, Talgo Renfe 102, Talgo 250. So the superior comfort quality of LHCS can be achieved with electric traction at least as well as with diesel traction.

And the major reason, why todays' are often of inferior quality compared to predecessors is definitely not the type of propulsion, but based on poor decisions and stinginess of TOCs. There are comfortable and non-comfortable EMUs and DMUs on the market, and comfortable and non-comfortable MUs and coaches. It's depending on the decision of the TCO what they buy. 

Electric traction has major advantages over diesel in terms of operation, maintenance and also travel quality (most passengers dislike exhaust fumes filling up stations and creeping through the windows of the first coaches as well as dislike the noise of trains in stations and on the way).


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> The mk3's are without doubt the most comfortable stock currently used by GWR and are miles ahead of the IET's. Slam doors allow windows hanging, something that is unfortunately being lost. Like I have said, I don't live near Paddington, nor any other major terminus station so the pollution arguement is one is wish to ignore. Those "anoraks" have a good point, they were good in the 80's and 90's and are still just as good as we enter 2020. Also, the HST's can handle Dawlish, unlike the IET that got stranded for 2 hours at Starcross yesterday because water had gotten into one of the engines.
> 
> Just face it, the UK will NEVER have a railway like those on the continent, not that it worries me.


That is entirely subjective. The MK3s spend the entire time groaning and creaking, and you get the random blasts of cold air if someone has left the window open. They also accelerate like a supertanker, and as Geogregor mentions, lose time at practically every stop because of the doors being left open. On the other hand the IET interior, especially first class, is poorly designed. And the lack of a buffet counter is very annoying, especially as they can't be bothered to run the trolley service up and down the train


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> The mk3's are without doubt the most comfortable stock currently used by GWR and are miles ahead of the IET's.


If you say so. It is purely subjective opinion, I'll let you hang into it...

I agree that seats could be better in the IETs. But, as I said, they were specified that way by the DfT. It has nothing to do with the fact that IETs are EMUs.



> Slam doors allow windows hanging, something that is unfortunately being lost.


A few people lost their lives due to drop windows in the doors. Again, some anoraks might miss them, most sane people won't. 
And the loss of time at station due to doors not being properly closed was just a joke.



> Like I have said, I don't live near Paddington, nor any other major terminus station so the pollution arguement is one is wish to ignore.


I don't even live near railway line but I'm not going to ignore obvious downside. Maybe I'm just a bit less selfish and don't want others to suffer so some "enthusiasts" enjoy a bit of "nostalgia"...

Paddington is definitely much nicer place now than it was in the era of HSTs.



> Just face it, the UK will NEVER have a railway like those on the continent,


Here we are actually in agreement. 

Anyway, I'm not going to drag this subject, we are unlikely to agree on the subject of HSTs. 

And whatever I or you write is not going to change the fact that they are quickly disappearing from the mainline operations.

Some people will be sad because of that, some happy, vast majority simply won't care.


----------



## tgk300

A few people have lost their lives, but I find it hard to take that as a valid arguement seeing as well allow cyclists and motorcyclists on the road, both of which are in far more danger than anyone windows hanging has ever been.

I do live near a railway line which uses Class 159 DMU and sometimes HST's or IET during diversion. The fact that these trains are diesel doesn't bother me in the slightest, in fact, I am pleased about it.

I will have to disagree with you comment regarding Paddington being a nicer place than it was during the HST era, as that is just plain wrong. I maybe selfish for not giving a toss about the environment, but it is what it is.


----------



## nidave

tgk300 said:


> A few people have lost their lives, but I find it hard to take that as a valid arguement seeing as well allow cyclists and motorcyclists on the road, both of which are in far more danger than anyone windows hanging has ever been.
> 
> I do live near a railway line which uses Class 159 DMU and sometimes HST's or IET during diversion. The fact that these trains are diesel doesn't bother me in the slightest, in fact, I am pleased about it.
> 
> I will have to disagree with you comment regarding Paddington being a nicer place than it was during the HST era, as that is just plain wrong. I maybe selfish for not giving a toss about the environment, but it is what it is.


You are very selfish. Pollutuon is a big issue and just because you don't have a problem does not mean others don't suffer from increased ailments and exacerbating conditions.

One death is too many. Yes people die on yje roads but that's not a reason to excuse any deaths on other forms of transport.

Would you disagree with the grounding of the max jets because more people die on the roads????

Your general attitude is why the world is in the state it is. "I am not impacted so it's not my problem".


----------



## NCT

tgk300 said:


> ... but it is what it is.


Thankfully this is not up to you! 

:lol:


----------



## tgk300

nidave said:


> You are very selfish. Pollutuon is a big issue and just because you don't have a problem does not mean others don't suffer from increased ailments and exacerbating conditions.
> 
> One death is too many. Yes people die on yje roads but that's not a reason to excuse any deaths on other forms of transport.
> 
> Would you disagree with the grounding of the max jets because more people die on the roads????
> 
> Your general attitude is why the world is in the state it is. "I am not impacted so it's not my problem".


Selish I am then. The issues with the Boeing 737 MAX's do justify an international grounding because its is a genuine issue, but slam doors which have been in use for over a century are not. "one death is no many" is the kind of attitude that will leave my generation unable to do anything as its all a bit "dangerous". Some thing are dangerous and need sorting, slam doors are not one of those things. 

As for my "general attitude", I would say that I do take the view off if it doesn't affect me then why worry. 

Pollution maybe an issue but I am fairly certain that most of those on here are to old to ever see the full on affect of it.


----------



## tgk300

NCT said:


> Thankfully this is not up to you!
> 
> :lol:


It's not unfortunatly.


----------



## nidave

tgk300 said:


> Selish I am then. The issues with the Boeing 737 MAX's do justify an international grounding because its is a genuine issue, but slam doors which have been in use for over a century are not. "one death is no many" is the kind of attitude that will leave my generation unable to do anything as its all a bit "dangerous". Some thing are dangerous and need sorting, slam doors are not one of those things.
> 
> As for my "general attitude", I would say that I do take the view off if it doesn't affect me then why worry.
> 
> Pollution maybe an issue but I am fairly certain that most of those on here are to old to ever see the full on affect of it.


Then you are a poor excuse for a human and no longer worth any time. Hope you never need to rely on others for anything with that attitude.
Merry Christmas.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Pollution maybe an issue but I am fairly certain that most of those on here are to old to ever see the full on affect of it.


You should try learning about history. Air pollution has killed thousands and thousands of people since the beginning of the industrial era. In fact the Romans managed to kill quite a few people with their industrial processes, so you are, unsurprisingly, massively mistaken


----------



## Ashtonian

Hi all hope you're enjoying the festivities.

Someone on the railways has a real sense of humour:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S73184/2019-12-24/detailed

Polar Express or what? Visiting all stations


----------



## nidave

Ashtonian said:


> Hi all hope you're enjoying the festivities.
> 
> Someone on the railways has a real sense of humour:
> 
> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S73184/2019-12-24/detailed
> 
> Polar Express or what? Visiting all stations


I'm sure they do that every year. It's a nice touch. Can't take life too seriously.


----------



## Paul Bigland

Some thoughts on today's non-announcement that the Northern Trains franchise might be terminated. https://paulbigland.blog/2020/01/02/confusion-reigns-over-northerns-trains/


----------



## Ashtonian

Paul Bigland said:


> Some thoughts on today's non-announcement that the Northern Trains franchise might be terminated. https://paulbigland.blog/2020/01/02/confusion-reigns-over-northerns-trains/


Interesting read, particularly the political angles.


----------



## tgk300

Interesting that ScotRail is losing money, it seems as though the franchise system is slowly crumbling one bit at a time. SWR is losing money as well as Northern and Scotrail. FirstGroup has stated that they will lose money on TPE and GA are hardly having a great time.


----------



## Svartmetall

Paul Bigland said:


> Some thoughts on today's non-announcement that the Northern Trains franchise might be terminated. https://paulbigland.blog/2020/01/02/confusion-reigns-over-northerns-trains/


Very interesting read. Just goes to show that all railways pretty much outside of London are just underfunded, not improved enough and no amount of operator changes will rectify that.


----------



## Paul Bigland

Because of the late delivery of new trains (the CAF built Civity 195/331s are year late). Northern are to keep some old BR built Pacers in service until May-August 2020. Here's details of what will be kept and where they'll operate. https://paulbigland.blog/2020/01/03/northerns-pacers-cling-on-until-may-2020-at-least/


----------



## NCT

Paul Bigland said:


> Some thoughts on today's non-announcement that the Northern Trains franchise might be terminated. https://paulbigland.blog/2020/01/02/confusion-reigns-over-northerns-trains/


Thank you, you have the issues well summarised there. Nationalisation will not solve the issues and yes, those agitating for local control, 'be careful what you wish for' ...


----------



## DaeguDuke

An article that may be of interest:
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/how-to-fix-northern-rail

Basically says that a significant proportion of issues are down to central government. It seems as if the service level specified by their franchise agreement relies on electrification that hasn’t happened, which means they are relying on diesel trains. The leasing companies believed the government/network rail about electrification, invested accordingly, and didn’t really plan on buying in new diesel trains that we shouldn’t even still be running.

The article claims that parts of the infrastructure are timetabled for more trains than can safely operate, presumably due to infrastructure upgrades that never appeared.

Spending per head on rail in the north of England has been stuck at half the level seen in London, Northern Rail’s problems have been decades of under investment.

If nothing else, having the government directly responsible for the operation and Network Rail should reduce the amount of circular finger-pointing when it comes to blame? Realistically, the only way to fix Northern Rail is for the government to stop only blaming the TOC and to massively increase funding for Network Rail. Match London funding per head for a decade.


----------



## NCT

DaeguDuke said:


> An article that may be of interest:
> https://www.wired.co.uk/article/how-to-fix-northern-rail
> 
> Basically says that a significant proportion of issues are down to central government. It seems as if the service level specified by their franchise agreement relies on electrification that hasn’t happened, which means they are relying on diesel trains. The leasing companies believed the government/network rail about electrification, invested accordingly, and didn’t really plan on buying in new diesel trains that we shouldn’t even still be running.
> 
> The article claims that parts of the infrastructure are timetabled for more trains than can safely operate, presumably due to infrastructure upgrades that never appeared.
> 
> Spending per head on rail in the north of England has been stuck at half the level seen in London, Northern Rail’s problems have been decades of under investment.
> 
> If nothing else, having the government directly responsible for the operation and Network Rail should reduce the amount of circular finger-pointing when it comes to blame? Realistically, the only way to fix Northern Rail is for the government to stop only blaming the TOC and to massively increase funding for Network Rail. Match London funding per head for a decade.


We need investment in the physical infrastructure in the north - we've pretty much exhausted all operational solutions.

We also need to form consensus on what kind of railway we want to build - crucially:
- do we want an operationally complex and expensive to build fully connected everywhere-to-everywhere network or an efficient system of more self-contained lines that places greater emphasis on passengers making changes; and
- do we design a network centred on a few cities with simple, high frequency routes or do we try to create a network that provides better perceived equality for everywhere in our polycentric north.

There is no such consensus.  The reality is there is only one answer to each of the above questions that's buildable, operable and fundable, and most stakeholder groups do not accept these answers.


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Look at the Rhein-Ruhr area. They have a polyester tricky S-bahn and Regiobahn system that provides maximal customer convenience at a pretty decent cost. Does it require subsidies? You bet, but I would take that any day over the fragmented and disastrous current policy. Is it expensive? Yep, but it is absolutely necessary.

The UK needs to get its funding priorities straight. Infrastructure lags behind far too many countries in the developed world.


----------



## NCT

The Rhine-Rhur rail network isn't all it's cracked up to be. The hierarchy of infrastructure and services is extremely unclear, journey times and frequencies are generally disappointing. The inter-city route between Cologne and Dortmund via Wuppertal and Hagen is an embarrassment of an inter-city alignment. No cities want to become a 'suburb' so all demand inter-city stops. If you get an inter-city train from Cologne you don't even leave the conurbation for an hour.

Deutsche Bahn like having 2-hour cycles for their inter-city services, then you have Thalys services introducing further irregularities. In the Rhine-Rhur where there's lots of mixed running, this places enormous difficulties for timetabling regional and S-bahn services. The result is low frequencies on all routes and a less-than-clockface timetable throughout the day. Cologne Central Station suffers from chronic delays - changing trains there is always a lottery - because of the 2-hour inter-city cycle if you miss your connection you have to completely replan your journey.

The saving grace is that nearly everything is electric. Other than that, the steady state of the Rhine-Ruhr network is little better than that in the north of England. Any combined timetable recast and rolling stock renewal in the Rhine-Ruhr region on the scale attempted in the north of England today would just be at risk of the same kind of meltdown.


----------



## Svartmetall

NCT said:


> The Rhine-Rhur rail network isn't all it's cracked up to be. The hierarchy of infrastructure and services is extremely unclear, journey times and frequencies are generally disappointing. The inter-city route between Cologne and Dortmund via Wuppertal and Hagen is an embarrassment of an inter-city alignment. No cities want to become a 'suburb' so all demand inter-city stops. If you get an inter-city train from Cologne you don't even leave the conurbation for an hour.
> 
> Deutsche Bahn like having 2-hour cycles for their inter-city services, then you have Thalys services introducing further irregularities. In the Rhine-Rhur where there's lots of mixed running, this places enormous difficulties for timetabling regional and S-bahn services. The result is low frequencies on all routes and a less-than-clockface timetable throughout the day. Cologne Central Station suffers from chronic delays - changing trains there is always a lottery - because of the 2-hour inter-city cycle if you miss your connection you have to completely replan your journey.
> 
> The saving grace is that nearly everything is electric. Other than that, the steady state of the Rhine-Ruhr network is little better than that in the north of England. Any combined timetable recast and rolling stock renewal in the Rhine-Ruhr region on the scale attempted in the north of England today would just be at risk of the same kind of meltdown.


Really? I never thought that it was that bad to be honest, and appeared to be vastly better both in terms of fare integration and provision compared to NE England, but perhaps you've used the network more than me. Perhaps you'd prefer the example of the Randstad instead, then?


----------



## TM_Germany

^^ I think he's talking about high speed service (IC, ICE, Thalys) which is admittedly bad in the Ruhr area but the extensive S-Bahn and Regio service should be quite good. S-Bahn lines have a frequency of 20min on weekdays and are quite reliable. 
Recently there has been an increased focused on regional Express services (RRX Rhein-Ruhr Express) so there also have been several improvements with a lot more to come.


----------



## Rover030

Svartmetall said:


> Really? I never thought that it was that bad to be honest, and appeared to be vastly better both in terms of fare integration and provision compared to NE England, but perhaps you've used the network more than me. Perhaps you'd prefer the example of the Randstad instead, then?


In the Netherlands they are really focussing on developing into "an efficient system of more self-contained lines that places greater emphasis on passengers making changes" and "a network centred on a few cities with simple, high frequency routes". In Utrecht where I live they rebuilt the central station, creating trunk lines with no physical interaction between them. For the intercity trains it's Rotterdam/The Hague - Amersfoort, and Amsterdam - Arnhem/Den Bosch. 

For stopping trains it's The Hague - Den Bosch, Amsterdam - Arnhem and terminating trains from Hilversum and Amersfoort.

All those trunks run on separate infrastructure within the city (with flyovers etc.), and half of the lines are four tracked outside the city as well. All of them have at least 4 trains per hour, so if you transfer from one trunk to another (for instance to go from Arnhem to Rotterdam) you don't have to wait very long. I bet in the North of the UK they'd have more direct services, but with hourly frequencies on most of them instead of 15 minute frequencies.

They went from 186 to 60 points with this rebuild, most of them for 80km/h, increasing approach speed, comfort and reducing failures. It's simplifications like this they should do in the UK as well.


----------



## NCT

The problem with the Rhine-Ruhr network is that if inter-city services take an hour to get out, regional services take even longer. The conurbation is broken into two fare areas, VRR in the north and VRS in the south. As far as I'm aware VRR and VRS products are generally not valid on IC services. So the ticketing isn't *that* integrated.

I did some journey searches in the summer - I haven't checked for any timetable changes since but I think the following still stands:

*Dortmund - Duisburg*

- 1 tph RE6 departing xx06
- 1 tph RE11 departing xx21
- 1 tph RE1 departing xx45
All taking 38 minutes. Then there's the odd ICE/IC that doesn't have consistent departure times that are only a few minutes faster.

*Dortmund - Cologne Hbf*

- 1 tph ICE taking1h09m via Wupppertal, and 
- 1 tph RE taking 1h23m via Duisburg. 

There are other options that do not form part of the standard hourly pattern, interchanging options and services to Cologne Messe-Deutz. These are not clock-face, interchanging locations are inconsistent and generally depart/arrive at the same time as the regulars rendering them next to useless.

*Dortmund - Dusseldorf*

Very similar to Dortmund - Duisburg (most are extensions of the same service), journey times 52-63 minutes. There's an extra hourly RE4 via Wuppertal but the departure/arrival times and journey time render it near enough useless.

For a conurbation the size of Greater London, these journey times and frequencies are really disappointing. Each corridor ought to have 4 tph express plus 4 tph semi-fast.

The problem with the Rhein-Ruhr network is by large parts a result of lack of rationalisation - trying to run through services everywhere gives you inconsistent frequencies and poor journey times. Despite being a conurbation of 10+ million the area isn't really commutable. The Ruhr corridor is economically under-performing as well.


----------



## Suburbanist

Integrated ticketing with long-distance services is usually bad practice.

It complicates boarding and alighting, as long-distance higher-speed trains often have far less doors and an internal layout not meant for very fast flows of passengers.

It also interferes with the reliability of seat reservation systems, if these are widespread. 

Finally, they might crowd out trains and make for unpleasant long-distance journeys while catering for local commuter traffic.


----------



## Ashtonian

Suburbanist said:


> Integrated ticketing with long-distance services is usually bad practice.
> 
> It complicates boarding and alighting, as long-distance higher-speed trains often have far less doors and an internal layout not meant for very fast flows of passengers.
> 
> It also interferes with the reliability of seat reservation systems, if these are widespread.
> 
> Finally, they might crowd out trains and make for unpleasant long-distance journeys while catering for local commuter traffic.


I have noticed that TP Express trains from Scotland to Manchester Airport allow passengers from the north to disembark at Bolton and there are plenty of announcements at Bolton for passengers not to board such services. Even the guard and platform staff were involved with preventing passengers from boarding the train. The guard said that he would charge anyone joining the train at Bolton that they would have to pay a full single fare as if that person had joined at Preston the previous station.

I guess restricted access plus financial penalties could be used to deter local commuters from using long distance services.


----------



## tgk300

Total disaster for SWR.FirstGroup has announced that for the year ending 31st March 2019, the operator lost 136.9m. It has also been said that they might lose the franchise.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...way-may-be-nationalised-after-firm-loses-137m


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## rogerfarnworth

Some unusual Locomotives and Railcars - Part 1

All around our world different engineers designed vehicles which seemingly suited the circumstances with which they were dealing.

Across the British railway network, and particularly on some of the light railways which sprang to life after the Light Railways Act 1896, there were a number of unusual locomotives and railcars.

This article focusses on two locomotives - Gazelle and Old Chainey.

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2020/01/02/unusual-small-locomotives-and-railcars-part-1


----------



## rogerfarnworth

Some unusual Historic Locomotives and Railcars - Part 2

Three further unusual locomotives/railcars. ...

The first was the first Michelin Pneumatic-Tyred Railcar (Type No.9) in the UK. The second are locomtives designed to serve the narrow gauge lines in The Guinness Factory in Dublin and a clever conversion vehicle which allowed the same locos to proviide traction on the Irish Standard Gauge as well. The third are railcars that were used by Colonel Stephens on a number of his Light Railways. ....

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2020/01/03/unusual-locomotives-and-railcars-part-2


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## Jacky93

Been thinking lately about the potential to reopen the line from Yatton to Wells, both in Somerset.

The old Cheddar Valley railway (see link below) used to serve Congresbury (pop. 3,000), Sandford (2,000), Winscombe (4,500), Axbridge (2,000), Cheddar (6,000) and Wells (12,000); before continuing to Witham between Frome and Castle Cary.

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/787751_orig.jpg

Most of the trackbed is still intact - as the Strawberry Line cycle path, but mostly could be re-laid as rail easily alongside.

Ok this may not be the most pressing reopening in the national rail network, but Wells is 50 min drive and 68 mins by bus from Bristol. 

Back when the line was open, Wells was 45 mins from Yatton, which is 17 min from Bristol. With modern technology and fewer stations, Wells could be a 45 min suburban rail journey away from Bristol - which has a housing shortage and little space left to build new homes. It’d connect a population of almost 30,000 to the rail network and Wells could act as a railhead for Glastonbury, Street and Shepton Mallet. Any thoughts?


----------



## rogerfarnworth

When was *nationalisation* of *british railways* first promoted as a significant idea? Perhaps you'd like to fix a year in your mind before reading the linked post.

http://rogerfarnworth.com/2020/01/23/british-railways-1948-part-2



> Was the idea of nationalisation first thought of in the preparations for the major conflict which was looming in the early part of the 20th century?
> 
> When conflict was declared on 4th August 1914, the Railway Executive Committee, which had been formed in 1912 as an intermediary between Government and the 120 private railway companies, moved swiftly to take control of the network. Within 24 hours of the start of the conflict, the Committee used the powers of the Regulation of the Forces Act 1871 to secure its ascendancy.


----------



## Ashtonian

So Virgin want to introduce open access services between Liverpool Lime Street and Euston using Class 91s with Mk4 carriages. If Virgin introduced Pendolinos on the WCML, why can't they use them on their new services? Is it simply that they're not available i.e. being fully used up by Avanti WC?


----------



## da_scotty

^^
The trains aren't owned by virgin but by a leasing company I belive.


----------



## rogerfarnworth

It appears that the British government has recently stepped up plans to reinstate some railways that were closed under Beeching. The promise was made before the election. ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...open-railway-lines-closed-1960s-beeching-cuts

And now seems to be bearing fruit.


----------



## rogerfarnworth

Missed this link off the end of my last post. ...

http://railnews.mobi/news/2020/01/28-government-confirms-500m-railway-reopening.html


----------



## geogregor

rogerfarnworth said:


> It appears that the British government has recently stepped up plans to reinstate some railways that were closed under Beeching. The promise was made before the election. ...
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...open-railway-lines-closed-1960s-beeching-cuts
> 
> And now seems to be bearing fruit.


It is political gimmick. They are promising to spend some small peanuts on that. 

It is probably done so they can announce proceeding with HS2 and say "we also spend on classic rural railways".

I wish they rather focused on investment and improvements on the main lines than on reopening of small branches. Many of them were closed for the right reasons. 

If they really wanted to improve transport in rural regions they should invest in bus transport which are currently a joke.


----------



## Fatfield

Northern Rail back in public ownership from 1st March 2020

https://news.sky.com/story/rail-firm-northern-to-be-put-into-public-ownership-from-march-11920615


----------



## rogerfarnworth

Fatfield said:


> Northern Rail back in public ownership from 1st March 2020
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/rail-firm-northern-to-be-put-into-public-ownership-from-march-11920615


That seemed very likely this morning. Not sure, however, whether there is the capacity in the network for this to make a significant difference.


----------



## geogregor

rogerfarnworth said:


> That seemed very likely this morning. Not sure, however, whether there is the capacity in the network for this to make a significant difference.


It is not going to change much on the ground in the short term. But it was inevitable for a while. 

"Northern Fail" was such a fiasco that government had to be seen doing something


----------



## 437.001

geogregor said:


> It is not going to change much on the ground in the short term. But it was inevitable for a while.
> 
> "Northern Fail" was such a fiasco that government had to be seen doing something


Which parts of Northern England does this hit?

All of the North? Just around Manchester/Liverpool? Yorkshire? The Northeast? Bits here and there?


----------



## rogerfarnworth

This link gets you to the route map for Northern Rail. ...

https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.net/images/maps/2017-12/Network-map-DR-update-24317.pdf


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Which parts of Northern England does this hit?
> 
> All of the North? Just around Manchester/Liverpool? Yorkshire? The Northeast? Bits here and there?


It doesn't actually affect anything, it just changes who is managing the company. The trains still run exactly as they were. 

The idea is that the new management will be able to sort the problems out, which will probably need some more money.


----------



## geogregor

Few shots from Kings Cross, Hitachi trains dominating the landscape :cheers:


DSC09873 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09875 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

LNER and the Hull Trains:

DSC09878 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09891 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09892 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Such a great station:

DSC09883 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09882 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09972 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## rogerfarnworth

Fantastic pictures!



geogregor said:


> Few shots from Kings Cross, Hitachi trains dominating the landscape
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC09873 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC09875 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> LNER and the Hull Trains:
> 
> DSC09878 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC09891 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC09892 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> Such a great station:
> 
> DSC09883 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC09882 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC09972 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

British train companies introduce special reduced timetables.

Below example from Southeastern:

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/help-and-contact/get-in-touch/coronavirus-travel-advice












Passanger numbers are down massively, for obvious reasons. London stations are quiete, even in peak times: 

Thursday:

DSC01573 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01575 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01581 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Friday:

DSC01629 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01631 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01642 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20200320_084527950_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Stay safe, mate. Hopefully these service blips will be temporary. Japan enacted the same restrictions as well during this time on their train services and reduced frequency markedly. It still hasn't come to an end there yet.


----------



## geogregor

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Stay safe, mate. Hopefully these service blips will be temporary. Japan enacted the same restrictions as well during this time on their train services and reduced frequency markedly. It still hasn't come to an end there yet.


My stations are at the moment the best places to "self isolate" Absolutely deserted  

BTW, nobody mentioned. All the franchise agreement suspended for at least 6 months:

Government suspends rail franchises due to Coronavirus



> *Rail franchises are to be suspended for the next six months due to the coronavirus pandemic, with the train operating companies offered a London Overground style operating license.
> 
> Under the new arrangement, the operators will continue to run services day-to-day for a predetermined management fee. Terms and conditions of employment for rail workers will not change.*
> 
> Under the franchise system, the train operating companies (TOCs) earned revenue from ticket sales, but with passenger numbers down by around 70%, most of them were facing deep losses and may have been unable to continue to operate.
> 
> Although there is always complaints about the franchise model, the rail operators tend to work on fairly low margins and the industry as a whole posted a loss last year, so the collapse in ticket sales over the past few weeks could be pushing some companies into collapse.
> 
> By switching to the license agreement, the government covers the running costs of the railways, and the operator is paid a management fee, regardless of passenger numbers. That system has been used with the London Overground and considered to be a good way of operating railway services.
> 
> It also ensures that the railways continue to run, regardless of how low passenger numbers fall.
> 
> Fees will be set at a maximum of 2% of the cost base of the franchise before the COVID-19 pandemic began, intended to incentivise operators to meet reliability, punctuality and other targets. In the event that an operator does not wish to accept an Emergency Measures Agreement, the Government’s Operator of Last Resort could take over instead. Companies entering into these agreements will see a temporary suspension of their existing franchise agreement’s financial mechanisms for an initial period of 6 months, with options for further extension or earlier cancellation as agreed.
> 
> *The duration may be indefinite though — as it is widely thought that the long-delayed report into the railway industry, the Williams Report would be coming down in favour of the operating license model anyway.*


I don't see the old franchise system coming back, even after the virus thing is over...

In the meantime, some sunny shots:


IMG_20200324_092301959_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20200324_095213844_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01677 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01678 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20200323_102002835_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


IMG_20200323_134450084_HDR by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## pellista

Are most of the railway lines in the UK powered with third rail or do you have any overhead catenary working?


----------



## flierfy

pellista said:


> Are most of the railway lines in the UK powered with third rail or do you have any overhead catenary working?


Just the network south of river Thames is third rail electrified. The main lines in the rest of the country are equipped with overhead wires or are not electrified at all.


----------



## geogregor

flierfy said:


> Just the network south of river Thames is third rail electrified. The main lines in the rest of the country are equipped with overhead wires or are not electrified at all.


Precisely. It just happens that I work south of the river so most of my photos are from the 3rd rail network 

A few more:

DSC01755 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01756 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01757 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01778 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01779 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01784 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01785 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

Penge East:

DSC01800 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01801 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01802 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01813 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Sydenham Hill barely visible on the other side of the tunnel:

DSC01808 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01814 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01815 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC01817 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## pellista

I went to Leavesden station with the overground once and took ~1hs from Euston, then coming back i hopped on a train coming from Liverpool ,arrived in London in less than 25m, was this a Northern High Speed Line?


----------



## Ashtonian

pellista said:


> Leavesden station


A London North Western service from Watford Junction I think is non-stop to Euston, could this be it?


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## pellista

Yes sorry ,Watford Junction is the station i meant


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## LM93

rogerfarnworth said:


> Fantastic pictures!


Those hull trains look very smart.


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## LM93

pellista said:


> I went to Leavesden station with the overground once and took ~1hs from Euston, then coming back i hopped on a train coming from Liverpool ,arrived in London in less than 25m, was this a Northern High Speed Line?


I think it’s classed as high speed as it does 125mph. 

It’d have most likely been a class 390 pendolino as well.


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## NCT

tgk300 said:


> So what are you suggesting? Full nationalisation or these new management contracts?


I think we need to go back to first principles, and I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all model.

The Inter-city TOCs are the last I would want to go to a no revenue risk model as clearly a considerable chunk of the demand is elastic and discretionary. However the problem of planning a saturated but mixed railway with multiple TOCs need to be addressed. It may be that the franchising authority (the DfT) has a greater role in specification (it doesn't necessarily mean specifying more, but specifying differently) and we recognise that commercial freedoms are reduced. Put it this way - if a detailed timetable needs to be developed by the franchising authority to prove the specification, then in this saturated world we live in, it is unlikely that a timetable that complies with both the specification and the train planning rules developed by someone else will look much different. After freedom of timetable that is taken away, there is very little meaningful commercial freedom that is left.

As for regional / commuter networks, the future really is in devolved administrations managing their own networks. I wouldn't want to prescribe exactly how they do it, as far as I can see it should be up to devolved authorities to make their own choices ranging from direct operation (London Underground) to revenue risk franchise.


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## tgk300

NCT said:


> I think we need to go back to first principles, and I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all model.
> 
> The Inter-city TOCs are the last I would want to go to a no revenue risk model as clearly a considerable chunk of the demand is elastic and discretionary. However the problem of planning a saturated but mixed railway with multiple TOCs need to be addressed. It may be that the franchising authority (the DfT) has a greater role in specification (it doesn't necessarily mean specifying more, but specifying differently) and we recognise that commercial freedoms are reduced. Put it this way - if a detailed timetable needs to be developed by the franchising authority to prove the specification, then in this saturated world we live in, it is unlikely that a timetable that complies with both the specification and the train planning rules developed by someone else will look much different. After freedom of timetable that is taken away, there is very little meaningful commercial freedom that is left.
> 
> As for regional / commuter networks, the future really is in devolved administrations managing their own networks. I wouldn't want to prescribe exactly how they do it, as far as I can see it should be up to devolved authorities to make their own choices ranging from direct operation (London Underground) to revenue risk franchise.


A management contract just shifts the risk onto the DfT as they're the ones paying the cost + predetermined profit margin regard less of what that costs or what the revenue is. From my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong), management contracts are a nice little earner for operators; but can be a money pit for the DfT should there be issues. Would the DfT not be better off cutting out the middle management from the 15 - 20 differant companies as well as the profit margin and just nationalise? Or, if nationalisation is too much risk for the Government to handle, just have one single company that both runs the trains and manages the infrastructure that is privately owned; but heavily regulated with a strict maximum profit per annum figure to prevent RailTrack style cost cutting leading to catastrophe - with the rest being returned to the Government for future investment. Would we be in the situation we are in now if BR had been privatised as a whole instead of in lots of tiny chunks with differant management attitudes/practices? 

Can anyone invisage a return to BR days with a single publically owned company running the entire show? The main arguemnt that many use against it is that it puts all the risk on the Government, but do management contract not do the same seeing as the Government is the one paying the cost and profit fee no matter what the revenue?


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## NCT

We've got to a point where there is no one single system that's clearly superior to another. When the railway had plenty of spare capacity privatisation accelerated the process of filling that up. That process is now largely complete.

I wouldn't advocate a return to the old BR days. Too big, too opaque, too unaccountable, and too much job for the boys going on. One advantage of the current system is that when things don't work (infrastructure, rolling stock, timetable, diagramming and performance regime aren't compatible) we know about them as TOCs and Network Rail blame each other. These things still happened under a vertically integrated BR - it was in reality lots of divisions which are people's own fiefdoms with lots of internal politics - we just didn't go about them and nothing was done about them.

If your baseline operating conditions are maximum train length and maximum trains per hour then quite frankly the private sector is not going to be able to grow the market. Where market growth can only take place through infrastructure investment then that has to be public money. The next priority then becomes cost control - there are successful examples of both gross cost concessions (London Overground and Manchester Metrolink) and direct operation (London Underground). The latter works when you have a competent delivery organisation that has a mature relationship with their political leader (one who doesn't micromanage or meddle politically).

There needs to be some form of commercial incentive for inter-city operations I think. Inter-city is where you need to work harder to retain just the existing level of demand. You have to work quite hard just to stay still. Things like the catering offer, on-board wifi and USB charging, or keeping up with whatever latest technological or cultural fad are important, and I think politicians or politically appointed managers are not suited to maintaining and improving that offer.

Ultimately a mixture of management and commercial approaches is a good thing. It creates competition of styles - proponents of different approaches have a vested interest in demonstrating their way is the best way, and that competition aides transparency.


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## bifhihher

NCT, thank you for you reply.
You are right that a part can be won with these "cultural fads" as a lot of regions could play that card to attract patrons visiting their city and ultimately take the train.
"Come to town X, with a direct train from London, 4x a day and enjoy the scenery, restaurants and hotels" = only possible if hotels, restaurants etc. are privately owned (Japan)


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## tgk300

NCT said:


> We've got to a point where there is no one single system that's clearly superior to another. When the railway had plenty of spare capacity privatisation accelerated the process of filling that up. That process is now largely complete.
> 
> I wouldn't advocate a return to the old BR days. Too big, too opaque, too unaccountable, and too much job for the boys going on. One advantage of the current system is that when things don't work (infrastructure, rolling stock, timetable, diagramming and performance regime aren't compatible) we know about them as TOCs and Network Rail blame each other. These things still happened under a vertically integrated BR - it was in reality lots of divisions which are people's own fiefdoms with lots of internal politics - we just didn't go about them and nothing was done about them.
> 
> If your baseline operating conditions are maximum train length and maximum trains per hour then quite frankly the private sector is not going to be able to grow the market. Where market growth can only take place through infrastructure investment then that has to be public money. The next priority then becomes cost control - there are successful examples of both gross cost concessions (London Overground and Manchester Metrolink) and direct operation (London Underground). The latter works when you have a competent delivery organisation that has a mature relationship with their political leader (one who doesn't micromanage or meddle politically).
> 
> There needs to be some form of commercial incentive for inter-city operations I think. Inter-city is where you need to work harder to retain just the existing level of demand. You have to work quite hard just to stay still. Things like the catering offer, on-board wifi and USB charging, or keeping up with whatever latest technological or cultural fad are important, and I think politicians or politically appointed managers are not suited to maintaining and improving that offer.
> 
> Ultimately a mixture of management and commercial approaches is a good thing. It creates competition of styles - proponents of different approaches have a vested interest in demonstrating their way is the best way, and that competition aides transparency.


I agree that BR was far too unaccountable and probably covered up far more than we think, but with strict government control I believe that something similiar could be made to work; I don't think that it should be one large company. I would go down the route of the "Big Four" where each company is responsible for both the trains as well as the infrastructure maintainance. These would of course be watched by the DfT. Thats how I would do it


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## NCT

tgk300 said:


> I agree that BR was far too unaccountable and probably covered up far more than we think, but with strict government control I believe that something similiar could be made to work; I don't think that it should be one large company. I would go down the route of the "Big Four" where each company is responsible for both the trains as well as the infrastructure maintainance. These would of course be watched by the DfT. Thats how I would do it


Do you really want the 'Labour spend Tory cuts' pendulum to be responsible for this strict government control?

Day-to-day government micromanagement is the worst thing possible. What franchising, or any of contract where the government has one opportunity to think long term and are bound by contracts and change mechanisms, at least the railways has been largely insulated from government meddling. This means Labour can't just go in and and piss money away and the Conservatives can't just start salami slicing things from day 1 like they did with the NHS.


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## tgk300

NCT said:


> Do you really want the 'Labour spend Tory cuts' pendulum to be responsible for this strict government control?
> 
> Day-to-day government micromanagement is the worst thing possible. What franchising, or any of contract where the government has one opportunity to think long term and are bound by contracts and change mechanisms, at least the railways has been largely insulated from government meddling. This means Labour can't just go in and and piss money away and the Conservatives can't just start salami slicing things from day 1 like they did with the NHS.


It was just an idea. I get what you're saying but I think that having a mixture of management and commercial approaches is just over complicating things even more and adding even more tag alongs into middle management for all these differant approaches. A single company or 4 at most is the way to go. All these contracts adding nothing but confusion and aditional costs through extra tag along middle management that don't need to be there. Have one board of managers look after the Western Region, one for the Southern Region and one for each of the 2 or 3 other regions. 

A return to BR sectorisation with the likes of the WR and SR are the way forward. BR was not faultless, but I like to think that was better than having TOC's fail left right and centre. If the government is going to take 90% of the risk with management contracts then why would they not just take all of it, renationalise and save themself profit margin payments?


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## tgk300

On a totally differant note; does any have any idea as to what will eventually happen to NR's massive debt pile and if it is due to increase?


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## geogregor

NCT said:


> Ultimately a mixture of management and commercial approaches is a good thing. It creates competition of styles - proponents of different approaches have a vested interest in demonstrating their way is the best way, and that competition aides transparency.


I think clear division should emerge. Commuter services should be run on similar basis to the TfL operation. The problem is that for that to work properly we need working system of metropolitan governance. More mayors, more powers for the regions. But it would really improve local services and investment could be better matched with local planning and growth. Developments around stations could be merged with stations' redeveloopment etc.

Then we are left with the long distance services. It could be mix of current franchising and open access operations. 

Anyway, a few shots from Swanley station on the outskirts of London:


DSC02442 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02443 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02718 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02719 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02721 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02725 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02728 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02729 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Virus or not virus, trains have to run...


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## Svartmetall

I would very much agree with you on that one. Commuter services being devolved to metropolitan regions would be great. Though, how they would be funded would be an issue given most councils are stony broke.


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## tgk300

Svartmetall said:


> I would very much agree with you on that one. Commuter services being devolved to metropolitan regions would be great. Though, how they would be funded would be an issue given most councils are stony broke.


But would it really be great? Everything down here in the west is underfunded so having the council in charge of the railway seems like a bad idea to me.


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## Svartmetall

tgk300 said:


> But would it really be great? Everything down here in the west is underfunded so having the council in charge of the railway seems like a bad idea to me.


That is why I said funding would be an issue. This set up works in highly decentralised countries like Sweden (with income tax rates decided by county), but there would have to be government grants in the UK.


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## tgk300

As much as a don't like the campaign groups and drone on and on about something, there is one group that I do fully support and that is Bring Back British Rail. British Rail wasn't perfect and had some major issues, but I think that if done properly it could be made to work. 

Why not put all franchises into one and have a single entity running the lot? If people are scared of privatly managed infrastructure after the whole RailTrack situation then keep Network Rail doing what they do, but have on single company running all routes. This could be a management contract as one contract has to be more cost effective than 15 or so.


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## geogregor

Svartmetall said:


> That is why I said funding would be an issue. This set up works in highly decentralised countries like Sweden (with income tax rates decided by county), but there would have to be government grants in the UK.


I agree that for local control of commuter rail to work the UK has to be more decentralized, including the money.

But it is not about increasing funding to current counties, councils or other existing administrative units. Those units ate not the best suited for running local transport. There is need for proper local transport authorities covering the whole local transport markets. Maybe they should be given tax raising powers, maybe grants. So, for example the whole North West should be run by one body which could then contract out running of services to rail companies (like TfL contracting out running the Overground to Arriva).

There is debate to be have how many such regional bodies are needed and what areas they should cover.

One thing is clear, running commuting rail as a normal for profit business doesn't make any sense.


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## tgk300

Ok, so many are suggesting that the local commuter services should be handed to local councils to give them more control, which is fine but what about Inter-City and regional services? 

Would a system where all Inter-City services across the country from Scotland to the Western retion were under a single company? 

Also, what about medium distance regional services like SWR's London Waterloo to Exeter St Davids's service? This cannot be put under one local council as it passes through several counties including Dorset, Somerset and then into Devon where it of course reverses to make the return trip. How do you manage a service like that?


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## tgk300

Would GWR's Night Riviera Sleeper fall into the Inter-City catagory or would that be a seperate company and would then then require a rolling stock change?


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## Rover030

tgk300 said:


> Ok, so many are suggesting that the local commuter services should be handed to local councils to give them more control, which is fine but what about Inter-City and regional services?
> 
> Would a system where all Inter-City services across the country from Scotland to the Western retion were under a single company?
> 
> Also, what about medium distance regional services like SWR's London Waterloo to Exeter St Davids's service? This cannot be put under one local council as it passes through several counties including Dorset, Somerset and then into Devon where it of course reverses to make the return trip. How do you manage a service like that?


You could have transit organisations owned by multiple local authorities like in Germany. But the situation around London is weird anyway with the current companies each having a slice, but also some overlapping like the example you mention and Thameslink. Berlin's regional rail (as in RE and RB services) does have complete through running, so there it makes sense to have a single organisation for the entire region (the states of Berlin and Brandenburg). I don't know if it's desirable to have a single organisation controlling all regional/commuter rail around London, even though most operations and planning are isolated from each other.


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## geogregor

Rover030 said:


> I don't know if it's desirable to have a single organisation controlling all regional/commuter rail around London, even though most operations and planning are isolated from each other.


It would be much more efficient than multiple organizations, often running trains to the same station. There is for example a lot of overlap between Thameslink, Southern and Southeastern where I live. Then you have the TfL managed London Overground also serving some of the same stations. It is bonkers waste of resources and makes cooperation difficult. At least those companies have the same shareholders but they might not if other companies win future franchise competitions.

At least all the high frequency metro services should be better run by one organization. Fleet could be unified, a lot of back office operations wouldn't have to be replicated etc.

If it is too much for the TfL (and if surroun ding counties object) some wider South East transport body should be created to regulate commuter rails around London. Then contracts could be let for actual running of the services, as the TfL does with its Overground network.


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## tgk300

Rover030 said:


> You could have transit organisations owned by multiple local authorities like in Germany. But the situation around London is weird anyway with the current companies each having a slice, but also some overlapping like the example you mention and Thameslink. Berlin's regional rail (as in RE and RB services) does have complete through running, so there it makes sense to have a single organisation for the entire region (the states of Berlin and Brandenburg). I don't know if it's desirable to have a single organisation controlling all regional/commuter rail around London, even though most operations and planning are isolated from each other.


No matter how you look at it, BR was as far better operation in terms of simplicity compared to the 24 differant franchises we have now. A single operation is the way to go in my opinion as it needs less tag along staff and reduces the chances of confusion; which there seems to be a lot of in the modern day. Whether of not that single company is private or public does not matter, they key is the structure not the ownership. 

Also, something very minor but very important is that when BR was operating during its peak it was of course all analogue. I like to think that should BR ever be resurrected and brought into the modern day with the computer systems of today that it would be far better. 

If any political party did go back to a BR style management structure then I doubt that it would be called British Rail. It would no doubt be some cringy name.


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## NCT

The UK needs to seriously consider constitutional reform and regional devolution. All the 'low hanging fruit' opportunities are pretty much exhausted. It's been shown time and again neither Westminster nor local authority district are a suitable unit of governance for the regions and cities. We need city and regional governments with revenue raising and borrowing powers, who can invest and run their own transport networks without the dead hand of the Treasury. Of course any devolved government still needs to operate under a common set of national rules and national government should have the power to step in if devolved administrations mismanage. City and regional networks ought to be managed by devolved governments.

As for the rest ... Network Rail will give you an indication of how efficient and effective a potential BR would be. Hint: it wouldn't be. The most effective large organisations are those that are managed as semi-independent local teams with strong local management that are visible to the staff on the ground and that understand the local market. Organisations managed from central ivory towers lose much more value through lack of understanding than they save in corporate functions. The best bus operator group is Go Ahead who let their local operations run independently. The very best operators are local independents. First who dictates everything from Aberdeen is in financial doldrums. Transport is not a static, boring utility - it needs to be dynamic to serve a dynamic economy. All local conditions are different and they need leaders and managers who understand the local context. The failed Northern franchise was run out of Leeds, and they just didn't understand or care about the operations west of the Pennines. Each London Underground line has its own management function. Local relevance matters. Small is beautiful.


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## tgk300

NCT said:


> The UK needs to seriously consider constitutional reform and regional devolution. All the 'low hanging fruit' opportunities are pretty much exhausted. It's been shown time and again neither Westminster nor local authority district are a suitable unit of governance for the regions and cities. We need city and regional governments with revenue raising and borrowing powers, who can invest and run their own transport networks without the dead hand of the Treasury. Of course any devolved government still needs to operate under a common set of national rules and national government should have the power to step in if devolved administrations mismanage. City and regional networks ought to be managed by devolved governments.
> 
> As for the rest ... Network Rail will give you an indication of how efficient and effective a potential BR would be. Hint: it wouldn't be. The most effective large organisations are those that are managed as semi-independent local teams with strong local management that are visible to the staff on the ground and that understand the local market. Organisations managed from central ivory towers lose much more value through lack of understanding than they save in corporate functions. The best bus operator group is Go Ahead who let their local operations run independently. The very best operators are local independents. First who dictates everything from Aberdeen is in financial doldrums. Transport is not a static, boring utility - it needs to be dynamic to serve a dynamic economy. All local conditions are different and they need leaders and managers who understand the local context. The failed Northern franchise was run out of Leeds, and they just didn't understand or care about the operations west of the Pennines. Each London Underground line has its own management function. Local relevance matters. Small is beautiful.


Small is not beautiful, small is overcomplicated. Franchising is over complicated and splitting it into even smaller chunks like you're suggesting is not a good idea and is in fact just asking for more confusion and conflicting interests. 

As for Go Ahead and First, they're running a bus service which while similiar; are a very differant ball game to the railway. They also don't have to deal with a company like NR, nor do they have to weather the constant political/media battering that the railway does. I mean, when was the last time the UK's bus network was front page news? 

If BR did return, by all means split it into marginally smaller chunnks, but don't go over board with it. If it was down to me I would have one large company (the name has little relevance) which owned but did not manage 4-5 small companies that actually run/maintained the network. Rather like the "big four" but all under one umbrella and still keeping their own right to do as they see fit for their respective regions. These 4-5 small companies would be soleley in charge of their own sector and would be able to take they own paths on things like acquiring new rolling stock and electrification. The type of rolling stock would be their own decisions therefore letting them decided if they want LHCS or DMU's and also the length of these trains. These sectors would also be financially independent off each of other and would only go to the treasury for major investment projects.


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## Svartmetall

tgk300 said:


> Small is not beautiful, small is overcomplicated. Franchising is over complicated and splitting it into even smaller chunks like you're suggesting is not a good idea and is in fact just asking for more confusion and conflicting interests.
> 
> As for Go Ahead and First, they're running a bus service which while similiar; are a very differant ball game to the railway. They also don't have to deal with a company like NR, nor do they have to weather the constant political/media battering that the railway does. I mean, when was the last time the UK's bus network was front page news?
> 
> If BR did return, by all means split it into marginally smaller chunnks, but don't go over board with it. If it was down to me I would have one large company (the name has little relevance) which owned but did not manage 4-5 small companies that actually run/maintained the network. Rather like the "big four" but all under one umbrella and still keeping their own right to do as they see fit for their respective regions. These 4-5 small companies would be soleley in charge of their own sector and would be able to take they own paths on things like acquiring new rolling stock and electrification. The type of rolling stock would be their own decisions therefore letting them decided if they want LHCS or DMU's and also the length of these trains. These sectors would also be financially independent off each of other and would only go to the treasury for major investment projects.


Tell that to the Swedes. It works very well there. Though I am hardly a fan of Swedish governance overall, the devolution of services to local authorities and the granting of taxation rights to these municipalities has helped to spread development across Sweden. It is also why Göteborg, Malmö, Linköping, Norrköping, Uppsala, Västerås, Örebro etc all have local commuter rail networks in cities that would otherwise be pretty neglected here.


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## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> If BR did return, by all means split it into marginally smaller chunnks, but don't go over board with it. If it was down to me I would have one large company (the name has little relevance) which owned but did not manage 4-5 small companies that actually run/maintained the network. Rather like the "big four" but all under one umbrella and still keeping their own right to do as they see fit for their respective regions. These 4-5 small companies would be soleley in charge of their own sector and would be able to take they own paths on things like acquiring new rolling stock and electrification. The type of rolling stock would be their own decisions therefore letting them decided if they want LHCS or DMU's and also the length of these trains. These sectors would also be financially independent off each of other and would only go to the treasury for major investment projects.


Well done, you have just reinvented BR. Which despite what anyone might tell you, was incredibly efficient and actually getting somewhere, right at the end. BR managed to move about half as many passengers as last year, for about 15% of the cost to the taxpayer. That's not the most important metric for public transport, but for people who worry about money it's a good put-down


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## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Well done, you have just reinvented BR. Which despite what anyone might tell you, was incredibly efficient and actually getting somewhere, right at the end. BR managed to move about half as many passengers as last year, for about 15% of the cost to the taxpayer. That's not the most important metric for public transport, but for people who worry about money it's a good put-down


The passenger number arguement is always a bad one to me. BR existed during a time when know one cared about the environment and car was still looking like it was going to be king for several decades to come. 

Now that both governments and society are beginning to care a little more and we're all being encouraged to take public transport it is no suprise that passengers figures have increased. Also, nationalising the network would suddenly result in half the passengers abandoning rail. A national vote on this would be interesting. Two options, what we have now or nationalisation. I know which one I would bet my money on.


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## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> Two options, what we have now or nationalisation. I know which one I would bet my money on.


This is a false choice.

First, what we have now is dying as we speak. There are fewer and fewer companies willing to run the franchise operations and even before lock-down a few TOCs were in dire financial shape. There was even talk of SWR handing keys back to the government. The current management contracts introduced due to Covid-19 will probably be extended beyond the intended 6 months and then we should get Williams review which will suggest something similar but probably with wider involvement of local authorities.

Second, nationalization is also a false hope. Some folks remembering "old good days" might wish it back (among some of the unions guys) but BR is not coming back. 

I do suspect mix of some sort or regional transport bodies commissioning private companies to run services. But ticketing, timetable planning etc. will be done by organizations similar to the TfL.

One thing I'm not sure about is what to do with the long distance services. Go for open access operators bidding for paths/slots? Creating 3 or 4 big long distance operators?

Anyway a few shots from Sundridge Park station in south London, on a short branch line between Grove Park and Bromley North:










DSC02916 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02917 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Looking north, towards Grove Park:

DSC02913 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And towards Bromley North:

DSC02918 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Short class 466 EMUs operate on this line:

DSC02923 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02924 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02929 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC02930 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Now that both governments and society are beginning to care a little more and we're all being encouraged to take public transport it is no suprise that passengers figures have increased. Also, nationalising the network would suddenly result in half the passengers abandoning rail. A national vote on this would be interesting. Two options, what we have now or nationalisation. I know which one I would bet my money on.


The railways are fundamentally nationalised now. The network is entirely in public ownership, as is the planning and timetabling process. Nationalising the TOCs would make next to no difference to how things are run


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## tgk300

Long distance services should all be under the control of a single operator, not broken up. Still don't see how breaking the network up into smaller chunks helps simplify or improve anything.


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## otternase

tgk300 said:


> Long distance services should all be under the control of a single operator, not broken up. Still don't see how breaking the network up into smaller chunks helps simplify or improve anything.


and why is that, do you have any arguments for that?

And what is the boundary for that, what is the right piece of network for a single operator and where should its border be? National borders?

So if for example Scotland should become independent, would you advocate a single operator for England, Wales and Scotland nevertheless or should Scotland than have a single independent operator independent from the rest of the Island? And if it thus would become two "single operators", divided by national borders, how would that be of any advantage against e.g. one operator running trains to the Southwest and South Wales, one on the WCML and one on the ECML?


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## tgk300

Having long distance services under one authority is the logical solution. How can you have local authorites running a service from Edinburgh to Penzance when it passes through many differant counties? 

While the UK is a single nation then one operator is best, but if Scotland did decide to go independent then obviously it should be a seperate operator becuase it's a seperate nation. I think that the answer to that question is quite obvious. The services would obviously run from Scotland to London and the south, but they would be based, and ideally maintained, in Scotland. This operator would then become the Scottish Governments responsibility, not the UK governments. I would also encourage the establishment of a Scotish NR counterpart to maintain their infrastructure.


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## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Long distance services should all be under the control of a single operator, not broken up. Still don't see how breaking the network up into smaller chunks helps simplify or improve anything.


Why? Each route/group of routes is a logically separate entity, and would have it's own management structure, even if nominally under one organisation. That's what happened under BR, and essentially what happens now. 

The advantage of local management is that decisions can be made much faster and there is less imposition of one-size-fits-all solutions.


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## NCT

BR was 'financially efficient' in its later days because it scrimped on renewals and enhancements - upon privatisation the state of the infrastructure was dire. Where it did do enhancements it did so on the cheap, like East Coast electrification where the wires come down frequently. The scrimping resulted in experienced engineers leaving overseas, a colossal loss of institutional memory. Network Rail's current inability to keep costs down and deliver major projects is a result of that 'efficient' period of BR. Of course the Railtrack era continued that brain drain. This is not a criticism of BR itself - it's just to highlight how a directly state operated entity is vulnerable to the politics of the day.

We've got to focus on passenger numbers too. This is not a purely demand side issue. When the government of the day doesn't believe in the railways then it'll encourage the people to travel by car and run down the state railway. You need strong independent voices from inside the industry who can be an advocate of the railway. BR as a state entity with state employees just could not provide that. There were no private operators or contractors telling the government it was wrong.

Yes, the infrastructure is operating at maximum capacity so currently the value of operators is limited. However HS2 will be on line in a decade's time, and that means the West Coat Main Line, and later East Coast and Midland Main Lines will be operating below capacity again. A return to BR would mean a return to conservatism and modest train frequencies. Private operators are better at operating above the base level specification and gradually ramping up service level. While other countries have good state owned operator I don't trust our Labour spend and Tory cut political pendulum to deliver one, and there's no point in discussing outside of this political context. The conservatives don't believe in state industries; Labour wants the railway to be a cheap, no-frills utility. Inter-city travel is about working hard to retain existing passengers and grow new market, offering a high-quality product that people want to pay for. Our political environment isn't conducive to achieve such an outcome.


----------



## NCT

I do also believe in the separation of infrastructure and operation. While open access operators have caused industry 'headaches', in terms of abstraction of revenue and creating challenges with timetabling, they have played a key part in increasing the quantity of supply which ultimately benefits passengers and the economy. Without those the ECML would not have had the 6th and 7th LDHS paths it has today. The threat of open access operators have at least in part led to operators filling every last train path on the network, much more than a monopolistic BR ever would.

Obviously the regime needs to be sufficiently flexible such that the more saturated the network is the greater role the coordinator (Network Rail and DfT) has to play in being ever more prescriptive about timetables and resources. But we must remember that it's the competitive forces that got us into this position in the first place.


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## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Why? Each route/group of routes is a logically separate entity, and would have it's own management structure, even if nominally under one organisation. That's what happened under BR, and essentially what happens now.
> 
> The advantage of local management is that decisions can be made much faster and there is less imposition of one-size-fits-all solutions.


Of course each group of long distance routes would be a seperate entity with the 4 logical ones being GWR, LNER, LMS and SR. A return to a similiar structure for long distance routes would be best. I would have those 4 "regions" under a single company, but managed indvidually. 

In an ideal world we would have GWR, SR, LNER and LMS as 4 privately owned companies that both run the trains and maintain the infrastructure. These 4 regions would be overlooked but not controlled by the DfT.


----------



## tgk300

NCT said:


> I do also believe in the separation of infrastructure and operation. While open access operators have caused industry 'headaches', in terms of abstraction of revenue and creating challenges with timetabling, they have played a key part in increasing the quantity of supply which ultimately benefits passengers and the economy. Without those the ECML would not have had the 6th and 7th LDHS paths it has today. The threat of open access operators have at least in part led to operators filling every last train path on the network, much more than a monopolistic BR ever would.
> 
> Obviously the regime needs to be sufficiently flexible such that the more saturated the network is the greater role the coordinator (Network Rail and DfT) has to play in being ever more prescriptive about timetables and resources. But we must remember that it's the competitive forces that got us into this position in the first place.


The fact that anyone can think that having multiple mini companies that are even more complicated than what we have now is a good idea really does baffle me. One company split into 4 or 5 differant seperatly managed regions is the way to go without a doubt.


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## 437.001

*GREAT WESTERN MAIN LINE (and branches)*

1) London Paddington to Hayes & Harlington electrified in 1998.
1.a) Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow Airport electrified in 1998.
2) Hayes & Harlington to Reading and Didcot Parkway electrified in 2017.
3) Didcot Parkway to Swindon, Wootton Bassett Jcn and Bristol Parkway electrified in 2018.
3.a) Reading to Newbury electrified in 2018.
4) Bristol Parkway to Cardiff Central electrified in 2019.

Which leaves...

-Slough to Windsor & Eton.
-Twyford to Henley-on-Thames.
-Didcot Parkway to Oxford.
-Wootton Bassett Jcn to Chippenham, Bath and Bristol Temple Meads.
-Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads.
-Cardiff Central to Port Talbot Parkway and Swansea.

...still missing.


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## Stuu

437.001 said:


> *GREAT WESTERN MAIN LINE (and branches)*
> 
> 1) London Paddington to Hayes & Harlington electrified in 1998.
> 1.a) Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow Airport electrified in 1998.
> 2) Hayes & Harlington to Reading and Didcot Parkway electrified in 2017.
> 3) Didcot Parkway to Swindon, Wootton Bassett Jcn and Bristol Parkway electrified in 2018.
> 3.a) Reading to Newbury electrified in 2018.
> 4) Bristol Parkway to Cardiff Central electrified in 2019.
> 
> Which leaves...
> 
> -Slough to Windsor & Eton.
> -Twyford to Henley-on-Thames.
> -Didcot Parkway to Oxford.
> -Wootton Bassett Jcn to Chippenham, Bath and Bristol Temple Meads.
> -Bristol Parkway to Bristol Temple Meads.
> -Cardiff Central to Port Talbot Parkway and Swansea.
> 
> ...still missing.


Strictly it's electrified to about 2km from Chippenham

Didcot-Oxford and Bristol both routes were likely to happen soon, although obviously everything has changed

The branches and the Welsh section are unlikely to happen, the Welsh government is spending lots electrifying and improving the suburban lines so can't afford to help pay for the main line. And the bimode trains and lower speeds means it's less important. 

The UK government were being much more positive about electrification, until Covid-19, so it might still happen


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## nidave

This is a fascinating book and explains a lot about BR and the history of privatisation - Its worth a read.








Losing Track: An Insider's Story of Britain's Railway Transformation from British Rail to the Present Day eBook : Nelson, John: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store


Losing Track: An Insider's Story of Britain's Railway Transformation from British Rail to the Present Day eBook : Nelson, John: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store



www.amazon.co.uk


----------



## geogregor

Some Southeastern trains. looking towards Lewisham in south London:

DSC03326 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Line from London Bridge to Greenwich:

DSC03348 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC03349 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


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## geogregor

At York station, due o low passanger numbers, a goose made a nest in the flowerbed:






__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255557646498791424
Now is waiting game, hopefully we get healthy goslings soon


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## Stuu

Planned future grade separation of Windmill Bridge Junction, South London. The existing layout is here


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## flierfy

This is an extremely disappointing draft. It is just a grade-separated version of the exisiting junction. It may remove some conflicts, but it does not tackle the underlying flaws of an ill-suited rail network.
Until today South London is still served by the same network that was once laid out into the rural landscape which the area was at that time. But instead of starting to transform this effectively rural rail network into an urban one, one has chosen to stick with the past, to stick with a complicated and therefore difficult to communicate service pattern. This a very English decision, but a very disappointing one too.


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## M-NL

If it is really true I don't know, but HS1 was said to be the first major change to the network since the Beeching cuts. So major changes to the UK network seem to be few and far between.
A large part of their network still uses diesel traction or 750 VDC third rail and retains the very small loading gauge from the past. They do severely limit the potential that's in the system though, but that's a political choice.


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> If it is really true I don't know, but HS1 was said to be the first major change to the network since the Beeching cuts. So major changes to the UK network seem to be few and far between.
> A large part of their network still uses diesel traction or 750 VDC third rail and retains the very small loading gauge from the past. They do severely limit the potential that's in the system though, but that's a political choice.


I wouldn't say that it's a political choice, but more a financial one. Replacing all diesel traction means installing OHLE on thousands of miles of track and buying new stock. Replacing 750VDC means more OHLE and even more trains as most third rail stock can us OHLE (I say most as some types can).

As for loading gauge well that's a whole differant problem. I don't fancy reboring every tunnel, re building every bridge and shifting every platform back a bit. That will never happen.


----------



## Stuu

M-NL said:


> If it is really true I don't know, but HS1 was said to be the first major change to the network since the Beeching cuts. So major changes to the UK network seem to be few and far between.
> A large part of their network still uses diesel traction or 750 VDC third rail and retains the very small loading gauge from the past. They do severely limit the potential that's in the system though, but that's a political choice.


Hs1 was the biggest change, there have been other new railways since Beeching, and of course a number of routes have reopened.

65% of all train kilometres are electric now, so quite a lot of actual journeys are by electric train. There are still too many routes without electrification though, which is a political choice as you say. For most of the period 1960-2000 there was nothing like the investment that other European countries made in those years. Loading gauge is not likely ever to be sorted out, there are too many structures to change. The big problem is below floor level, where the platforms and underbridges cut into the train profile, and it would be extremely hard to change that as you can't have an intermediate stage where some platforms have been changed and some haven't

DC electrification was the wrong choice but the benefits of changing now are pretty limited - if you can run 240m long trains every 3 minutes now it's hard to justify changing it


----------



## Stuu

flierfy said:


> This is an extremely disappointing draft. It is just a grade-separated version of the exisiting junction. It may remove some conflicts, but it does not tackle the underlying flaws of an ill-suited rail network.
> Until today South London is still served by the same network that was once laid out into the rural landscape which the area was at that time. But instead of starting to transform this effectively rural rail network into an urban one, one has chosen to stick with the past, to stick with a complicated and therefore difficult to communicate service pattern. This a very English decision, but a very disappointing one too.


I do know what you mean, although this section is actually one of the more coherent parts of the network in terms of regular service patterns. These changes will reinforce that


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## NCT

flierfy said:


> This is an extremely disappointing draft. It is just a grade-separated version of the exisiting junction. It may remove some conflicts, but it does not tackle the underlying flaws of an ill-suited rail network.
> Until today South London is still served by the same network that was once laid out into the rural landscape which the area was at that time. But instead of starting to transform this effectively rural rail network into an urban one, one has chosen to stick with the past, to stick with a complicated and therefore difficult to communicate service pattern. This a very English decision, but a very disappointing one too.


What would you do?


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> DC electrification was the wrong choice but the benefits of changing now are pretty limited - if you can run 240m long trains every 3 minutes now it's hard to justify changing it


Was it really though? It may have made financial and techological sense at the time. Admittedly it's not ideal now, but the third rail system was built for the needs of then, not the needs of now.


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## tgk300

NCT said:


> What would you do?


There isn't really much more that can be done. I am not familiar with this area so cannot make any informed comment, but to me the junction looks like an absolute nightmare to design as there are several differant routes and of course all of them have to be accessible for each other the others. I am sure that this design is far better than the previous ones and (hopefully) it will help improve the services.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Was it really though? It may have made financial and techological sense at the time. Admittedly it's not ideal now, but the third rail system was built for the needs of then, not the needs of now.


Yes, it was. The LBSCR had already electrified a lot of their routes in south London with overhead AC wires before WW1 (before the invention of Health and Safety)

This was removed and replaced with DC third rail later


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Yes, it was. The LBSCR had already electrified a lot of their routes in south London with overhead AC wires before WW1 (before the invention of Health and Safety)
> 
> This was removed and replaced with DC third rail later


While it may not make sense now, back then it must have made sense else they would not have done it. Out of interest, are there any major 750V DC Third Rail renewal projects coming up or not? Has there every been any suggestions made about replacing the third rail with OHLE?


----------



## flierfy

NCT said:


> What would you do?


I would build a station on both levels for local service. This would allow to cut back two link lines and therefore 4 junctions. The tracks for the fast services would by-pass the station and would join each other to form the only junction left.









Note: This graphic in north-oriented.


----------



## M-NL

tgk300 said:


> Was it really though? It may have made financial and techological sense at the time. Admittedly it's not ideal now, but the third rail system was built for the needs of then, not the needs of now.


And that is the best argument why it should be changed. The low voltage results in high currents, huge transmission losses and requires many substations, exactly the reason the Netherlands is considering changing from 1500 VDC to 3000 VDC (a change to 25kV AC was rejected mainly because of the additional cost and little extra benefit). Changing from third rail to OHLE is perfect, because you can use build the OHLE without disturbing the existing third rail. They can even coexist.

As for a loading gauge change. Yes, that is really expensive, but at some point there just isn't room for longer trains anymore. You could just start with main lines, where the need for something like double deck trains is greatest. Even in the current situation trains exist that can't acces the entire network . Trains for main lines don't need access to small branch lines. Many lines may not need expansion ever. Double deck trains are perfect for long distance, but useless for commuter (and even regional) trains, because they have to few doors. And you don't strictly need to widen trains. You just need a gauge large enough for your specific purpose. Preferably an already standardised one, but even that is not strictly necessary.


----------



## NCT

flierfy said:


> I would build a station on both levels for local service. This would allow to cut back two link lines and therefore 4 junctions. The tracks for the fast services would by-pass the station and would join each other to form the only junction left.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: This graphic in north-oriented.


How would this benefit passengers?


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> And that is the best argument why it should be changed. The low voltage results in high currents, huge transmission losses and requires many substations, exactly the reason the Netherlands is considering changing from 1500 VDC to 3000 VDC (a change to 25kV AC was rejected mainly because of the additional cost and little extra benefit). Changing from third rail to OHLE is perfect, because you can use build the OHLE without disturbing the existing third rail. They can even coexist.
> 
> As for a loading gauge change. Yes, that is really expensive, but at some point there just isn't room for longer trains anymore. You could just start with main lines, where the need for something like double deck trains is greatest. Even in the current situation trains exist that can't acces the entire network . Trains for main lines don't need access to small branch lines. Many lines may not need expansion ever. Double deck trains are perfect for long distance, but useless for commuter (and even regional) trains, because they have to few doors. And you don't strictly need to widen trains. You just need a gauge large enough for your specific purpose. Preferably an already standardised one, but even that is not strictly necessary.


Again, that won't happen. Even upgrading just mainline would cost tens of billions. Rebuilding all bridges and tunnels would be far too much to justify even if it does bring a lot of aditional capacity.


----------



## flierfy

NCT said:


> How would this benefit passengers?


It allows for more services. And once they run, passengers benefit greatly.


----------



## NCT

flierfy said:


> It allows for more services. And once they run, passengers benefit greatly.


How many more services? What are the journey times to Victoria and London Bridge? What service levels do punters get from Caterham, Tattenham Corner, Redhill, East Grinsted and Uckfield?

How do punters from Norbury get to Gatwick Airport and Brighton?


----------



## M-NL

tgk300 said:


> Again, that won't happen. Even upgrading just mainline would cost tens of billions. Rebuilding all bridges and tunnels would be far too much to justify even if it does bring a lot of aditional capacity.


The thing is, that the alternatives aren't that appealing either. Would you like an extra motorway instead then? They also cost a lot and create massive amounts of pollution on top (even electric cars cause local pollution).
At peak times trains around London are packed, but all the main motorways are as well. All those people stuck in traffic or waiting for a next train that they'll hopefully fit into, result in a lot of missed potential revenue. Thus not doing something is expensive as well. But yes, I'm realistic enough to understand, that any change will not happen anytime soon.


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> The thing is, that the alternatives aren't that appealing either. Would you like an extra motorway instead then? They also cost a lot and create massive amounts of pollution on top (even electric cars cause local pollution).
> At peak times trains around London are packed, but all the main motorways are as well. All those people stuck in traffic or waiting for a next train that they'll hopefully fit into, result in a lot of missed potential revenue. Thus not doing something is expensive as well. But yes, I'm realistic enough to understand, that any change will not happen anytime soon.


There will come a point where maximum capacity is reached and we can go no further with expansion. When that day comes we will have a huge problem.


----------



## Stuu

M-NL said:


> Double deck trains are perfect for long distance, but useless for commuter (and even regional) trains, because they have to few doors. And you don't strictly need to widen trains. You just need a gauge large enough for your specific purpose. Preferably an already standardised one, but even that is not strictly necessary.


But all the busiest lines _are _commuter lines, there is nothing like the need for capacity on intercity lines, and a great deal of that is being resolved by building Hs2. If you don't need to widen trains, and double deck makes no sense, what are you going to achieve?


----------



## Stuu

flierfy said:


> It allows for more services. And once they run, passengers benefit greatly.


I assume your basic idea is to run all stopping services from East Croydon direction to Victoria, and from West Croydon to London Bridge? The demand is nothing like symmetrical which is by far the biggest issue. Most demand is from the East Croydon direction, the line towards West Croydon is far quieter. So there would need to be an enormous increase in service on a line that doesn't need it, in order to cope with the passengers changing trains. Also it would be incredibly unpopular.

Also the south central segment _is_ fairly well split up into separate service groups already, it's the south eastern side which needs sorting out and rationalising


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## NCT

Widespread re-gauging is neither practical nor desirable. Once you've exhausted train lengthening and minimum headways, the only viable way is to build new lines.

We didn't rebore the Piccadilly - we built the Victoria line; with any luck we'll be building Crossrail 2.

We didn't rebore the Central line - we built Crossrail.

HS1 was the answer to saturated networks out of Victoria (Chatham side) and London Bridge.

The solution to the inter-city main lines is HS2

Once the BML becomes fully saturated build BML-HS

Once GWML and SWML become fully saturated build HS-SW.


----------



## Rational Plan

Actually there are some long range plans to regauge some lines, but these are in the options for the future category. It would not be for intercity but outer suburban/regional commuter lines out from London. The prime candidate is the line between London Waterloo and Basingstoke. Crossrail 2 will not sort out congestion on longer distance suburban routes and is a long way off anyway. Meanwhile passengers keep on going up on the longer distance routes. Growing trends of working from home one or two days a week, have helped drive people further from London to get cheaper property and only suffer long journeys to work 3 or 4 days a week. 

They had looked at 16 carriage trains into Waterloo, but dismissed it as far too expensive. They have begun to look refitting the line to take proper double deck trains. Two options exist. Full blown double deck trains could provide commuter trains with 2000 seats, this would be pricey. Another company has proposed a slightly slimmed down version that would only have 3 seats across on the upper deck, but would provide about 1600 seats, and would require much less rebuilding. The increased capacity has to balanced against a small fleet that can only be used on one small part of the Network. Though over time you could see them extending it Southampton and then Bournemouth, possibly Guildford. But still big money, so will only be done at the last minute. They will avoid building a new high speed line until the last possible moment.


----------



## NCT

I see that double deck regauging as in the 'nice idea but soon to be on the forgotten pile' territory.

The problem of regauging for long distance double deck trains is you have to do the whole route. There's no point in regauging just to Basingstoke, as only inner stoppers start/terminate there which are ill suited to double deckers. It's the Southamptons and Portsmouths that need the capacity. If you can run double-deck Basingstoke - Woking - Waterloo fast shuttles yes that does release capacity on the Sotons and Pompeys, but there are no paths.

Crossrail 2 does help with outer capacity. Crossrail 2 means those Basingstoke starters or stuff from Oxshott that currently join the fasts at Surbiton can stay on the slows, releasing fast line paths for additional Sotons and Pompeys.


----------



## tgk300

Rational Plan said:


> Actually there are some long range plans to regauge some lines, but these are in the options for the future category. It would not be for intercity but outer suburban/regional commuter lines out from London. The prime candidate is the line between London Waterloo and Basingstoke. Crossrail 2 will not sort out congestion on longer distance suburban routes and is a long way off anyway. Meanwhile passengers keep on going up on the longer distance routes. Growing trends of working from home one or two days a week, have helped drive people further from London to get cheaper property and only suffer long journeys to work 3 or 4 days a week.
> 
> They had looked at 16 carriage trains into Waterloo, but dismissed it as far too expensive. They have begun to look refitting the line to take proper double deck trains. Two options exist. Full blown double deck trains could provide commuter trains with 2000 seats, this would be pricey. Another company has proposed a slightly slimmed down version that would only have 3 seats across on the upper deck, but would provide about 1600 seats, and would require much less rebuilding. The increased capacity has to balanced against a small fleet that can only be used on one small part of the Network. Though over time you could see them extending it Southampton and then Bournemouth, possibly Guildford. But still big money, so will only be done at the last minute. They will avoid building a new high speed line until the last possible moment.


How can 16 car trains in Waterloo be more expensive than regauing to Basingstoke and buying VERY VERY bespoke trains for one route? That, to me at least, does not make sense. For 16 car trains all that you need is longer platforms and some singnalling alterations. 
Also, what 16 car trains? What unit type are they thinking about as coach length makes a massive differance.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> How can 16 car trains in Waterloo be more expensive than regauing to Basingstoke and buying VERY VERY bespoke trains for one route? That, to me at least, does not make sense. For 16 car trains all that you need is longer platforms and some singnalling alterations.
> Also, what 16 car trains? What unit type are they thinking about as coach length makes a massive differance.


Extending platforms can be _very _expensive. The price for extending the suburban side of Waterloo to from 10 to 12 cars was more than £1bn, because of how much property would need to be demolished and stuff moved etc. Imagine how much more it would be to increase even a few of the mainline platforms to 16 car (20m each) length. You would have to widen the entire throat of the station. Double deck trains were seriously considered as part of the future solution on the SWML, but not taken forward for various reasons already mentioned by NCT.

If anywhere were ever regauged I would have thought the lines out of Fenchurch Street are a possibility as there are no tunnels and the line is pretty much isolated from a passenger point of view


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Extending platforms can be _very _expensive. The price for extending the suburban side of Waterloo to from 10 to 12 cars was more than £1bn, because of how much property would need to be demolished and stuff moved etc. Imagine how much more it would be to increase even a few of the mainline platforms to 16 car (20m each) length. You would have to widen the entire throat of the station. Double deck trains were seriously considered as part of the future solution on the SWML, but not taken forward for various reasons already mentioned by NCT.
> 
> If anywhere were ever regauged I would have thought the lines out of Fenchurch Street are a possibility as there are no tunnels and the line is pretty much isolated from a passenger point of view


I appreciate that platform extension is expensive for the reasons you mention above, but it can't see it being more expensive than reboring tunnels and bridges for double deck trains and then buying bespoke trains for that route. The throat would need to be widened, but It can't cost that much.


----------



## Rational Plan

NCT said:


> I see that double deck regauging as in the 'nice idea but soon to be on the forgotten pile' territory.
> 
> The problem of regauging for long distance double deck trains is you have to do the whole route. There's no point in regauging just to Basingstoke, as only inner stoppers start/terminate there which are ill suited to double deckers. It's the Southamptons and Portsmouths that need the capacity. If you can run double-deck Basingstoke - Woking - Waterloo fast shuttles yes that does release capacity on the Sotons and Pompeys, but there are no paths.
> 
> Crossrail 2 does help with outer capacity. Crossrail 2 means those Basingstoke starters or stuff from Oxshott that currently join the fasts at Surbiton can stay on the slows, releasing fast line paths for additional Sotons and Pompeys.


I think the slightly smaller double deck solution avoided the cost of bridge and tunnel rebuilds but still left platform re construction as part of the bill


----------



## tgk300

Rational Plan said:


> I think the slightly smaller double deck solution avoided the cost of bridge and tunnel rebuilds but still left platform re construction as part of the bill


I mean, even the smaller version of the double deck trains would still need the bridges and tunnel to be rebuilt. There isn't much room in a railway tunnel as is as so an extra floor no matter how small the extra floor. 

Also, what about loading/unloading times for double deck trains?


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> I appreciate that platform extension is expensive for the reasons you mention above, but it can't see it being more expensive than reboring tunnels and bridges for double deck trains and then buying bespoke trains for that route. The throat would need to be widened, but It can't cost that much.


There aren't any tunnels between Basingstoke and Waterloo, which is a big part of why it was considered a possibility. It is underbridges and especially platforms that is the biggest issue. The final report which includes talking about it and why they aren't going to do it is here.


----------



## NCT

I made a little calculation of how much additional capacity double deck trains in the UK would actually provide.

First of all due to UK platform height the doors will have to be at normal height, above the bogies. Assume platform works allow you to retain 2+2 seating downstairs, but upstairs almost certainly will be only 1+2, as is the case with Aeroliner3000, given the necessarily tapered body profile. 

Using Class 745 as a reference train, each non-powered car has 10 bays, 1 bay for doors and 9 bays of 8 seats, of which 4 bays are above bogies. I use the Class 745 as power is concentrated at unit ends above bogies, so converting then inter-bogie sections of the train to double deck should be relatively straightforward.

So this double deck train will need 4 bays as single deck, where two half bays are taken up by single leaf doors, then stairs will take up further room. I can just fit about 84 seats in a double deck carriage.

Obviously the numbers will be different depending on vehicle length and use of Jacob bogies, but it seems to me this is a complete waste of time.


----------



## tgk300

NCT said:


> I made a little calculation of how much additional capacity double deck trains in the UK would actually provide.
> 
> First of all due to UK platform height the doors will have to be at normal height, above the bogies. Assume platform works allow you to retain 2+2 seating downstairs, but upstairs almost certainly will be only 1+2, as is the case with Aeroliner3000, given the necessarily tapered body profile.
> 
> Using Class 745 as a reference train, each non-powered car has 10 bays, 1 bay for doors and 9 bays of 8 seats, of which 4 bays are above bogies. I use the Class 745 as power is concentrated at unit ends above bogies, so converting then inter-bogie sections of the train to double deck should be relatively straightforward.
> 
> So this double deck train will need 4 bays as single deck, where two half bays are taken up by single leaf doors, then stairs will take up further room. I can just fit about 84 seats in a double deck carriage.
> 
> Obviously the numbers will be different depending on vehicle length and use of Jacob bogies, but it seems to me this is a complete waste of time.


Ok, I see your point about the aditional capacity which is great. However, it is a very limited market and out of all the current UK EMU/DMU designs only two could actually be double deck. Those are the Class 755's and the 745's that you mentioned prevously. A Class 800 could not be double deck as the floor is too high. Also, adding an extra floor adds more weight so there for more installed power would be needed. Not a problem in a 3 or 4 car 755 as there is already ample power, but go upto 10 cars and suddenly thats a fair chunk more weight.


----------



## Stuu

NCT said:


> I made a little calculation of how much additional capacity double deck trains in the UK would actually provide.
> 
> First of all due to UK platform height the doors will have to be at normal height, above the bogies. Assume platform works allow you to retain 2+2 seating downstairs, but upstairs almost certainly will be only 1+2, as is the case with Aeroliner3000, given the necessarily tapered body profile.
> 
> Using Class 745 as a reference train, each non-powered car has 10 bays, 1 bay for doors and 9 bays of 8 seats, of which 4 bays are above bogies. I use the Class 745 as power is concentrated at unit ends above bogies, so converting then inter-bogie sections of the train to double deck should be relatively straightforward.
> 
> So this double deck train will need 4 bays as single deck, where two half bays are taken up by single leaf doors, then stairs will take up further room. I can just fit about 84 seats in a double deck carriage.
> 
> Obviously the numbers will be different depending on vehicle length and use of Jacob bogies, but it seems to me this is a complete waste of time.


However, if it were ever considered that double deck trains were the solution then it would only be done if it did provide a serious boost to capacity, which would mean altering platforms and rebuilding bridges by enough to make it worthwhile, so comparisons with current trains are pretty irrelevant


----------



## tgk300

While I fundamentally disagree with NCT and the idea of double deck trains in the UK, he does raise a good point about capacity. What do we do once trains are as long as they can be and all the signalling upgrades that could be done are done? Do we accept that maximum capacity has been reached and just live with it or do we start thinking (and spending) radically by literally going back to drawing board and redesigning the railway?


----------



## NCT

tgk300 said:


> While I fundamentally disagree with NCT and the idea of double deck trains in the UK, he does raise a good point about capacity. What do we do once trains are as long as they can be and all the signalling upgrades that could be done are done? Do we accept that maximum capacity has been reached and just live with it or do we start thinking (and spending) radically by literally going back to drawing board and redesigning the railway?


What? I said double deck trains with UK loading gauge is a waste of time.



Stuu said:


> However, if it were ever considered that double deck trains were the solution then it would only be done if it did provide a serious boost to capacity, which would mean altering platforms and rebuilding bridges by enough to make it worthwhile, so comparisons with current trains are pretty irrelevant


Rational Plan's point was about only doing platforms and not bridges.

Of course then there's no quick win (assuming double deckers within our loading gauge is) and the economics soon starts to stack in favour of a new line.


----------



## tgk300

NCT said:


> What? I said double deck trains with UK loading gauge is a waste of time.


Oops, massive balls up on my part. I meant that I disgree with M-NL and the idea of double deck trains, but he raises good points. My bad and I do apologise.


----------



## Ashtonian

The Southern region in England used double decker trains:


----------



## gincan

flierfy said:


> This is an extremely disappointing draft. It is just a grade-separated version of the exisiting junction. It may remove some conflicts, but it does not tackle the underlying flaws of an ill-suited rail network.
> Until today South London is still served by the same network that was once laid out into the rural landscape which the area was at that time. But instead of starting to transform this effectively rural rail network into an urban one, one has chosen to stick with the past, to stick with a complicated and therefore difficult to communicate service pattern. This a very English decision, but a very disappointing one too.


Sure, if you can find 10 trillion punds lying arund I'm positive the whole damn network can be rebuilt from scratch. The economic reality is that this is about all they can do.


----------



## tgk300

gincan said:


> Sure, if you can find 10 trillion punds lying arund I'm positive the whole damn network can be rebuilt from scratch. The economic reality is that this is about all they can do.


I will have a look in my wallet but I think I am gonna struggle to find that much to be honest, what have you got to contribute?


----------



## tgk300

flierfy said:


> This is an extremely disappointing draft. It is just a grade-separated version of the exisiting junction. It may remove some conflicts, but it does not tackle the underlying flaws of an ill-suited rail network.
> Until today South London is still served by the same network that was once laid out into the rural landscape which the area was at that time. But instead of starting to transform this effectively rural rail network into an urban one, one has chosen to stick with the past, to stick with a complicated and therefore difficult to communicate service pattern. This a very English decision, but a very disappointing one too.


What would you have done with it instead?


----------



## gincan

NCT said:


> Franchising served a purpose in the early 90s when the rail network was very underutilised. While the subsequent increase in demand can be largely attributed to demographic and attitude changes, I think the private sector or the semi-liberalised environment did a better job of rapidly increasing supply to match the demand than a fully nationalised / more heavily regulated system would have achieved. We took the plunge to claw back consumer surplus from demand-inelastic peak-time demand (by raising peak fares and unregulated fares) to fund a better off-peak service pattern. On the inter-city network Britain has a higher frequency service and achieves a higher trip rate by rail compared with other European counterparts. The revenue per passenger on average is a bit higher and with a greater variation compared with France or Germany (very cheap Advance compared with very expensive peak walk-up which in reality very few people pay), but a lower proportion of the railway's cost base is subsidised in Britain compared with many European countries.
> 
> *However, now that the network is maxed out pretty much everywhere*, and that political confidence that the railway is a growth industry is achieved, I am beginning to think that franchising in its current form has run its course. In the mid nineties there were about 8 trains per hour over Welwyn Viaduct in the off-peak, now the specification for 2021 is around 15. In the 90s and early 00s there was white space in the timetable for TOC initiatives and other innovations like Open Access. Now the focus has to be on a carefully coordinated timetable structure and operating principles. The baseline is the maximum that can be achieved in terms of quantum, and the industry has to be much more prescriptive in terms of journey times, terminal turnarounds, and train and staff diagramming, in order to achieve a high performance railway. All the commercial levers are now no longer available.


In the current state the network is, it is maxed out, but there are an insane amount of bottlenecks that contribute to the current situation. I'm pretty sure the existing network is all that would ever be needed if said bottlenecks were fixed.

HS2 will add capacity and some time savings but for that kind of money you could have built away a huge amount of bottlenecks (grade separated junctions, quadruplings everywhere, new signaling system for all main lines, electrification on all main lines) and increased speeds on all trunk routes.

I'm all for preserving heritage but if it were up to me, I would for example replace Welwyn Viaduct with a new 4 track bridge and that goes for a whole bunch of other heritage blocking bottlenecks on the network.


----------



## tgk300

gincan said:


> I'm all for preserving heritage but if it were up to me, I would for example replace Welwyn Viaduct with a new 4 track bridge and that goes for a whole bunch of other heritage blocking bottlenecks on the network.


Why though? Most people would rather look at a nice bridge than whatever rubbish NR comes up with the a cheap price.


----------



## Stuu

gincan said:


> HS2 will add capacity and some time savings but for that kind of money you could have built away a huge amount of bottlenecks (grade separated junctions, quadruplings everywhere, new signaling system for all main lines, electrification on all main lines) and increased speeds on all trunk routes.
> 
> I'm all for preserving heritage but if it were up to me, I would for example replace Welwyn Viaduct with a new 4 track bridge and that goes for a whole bunch of other heritage blocking bottlenecks on the network.


Actually that was researched pretty seriously, the cost and difficulty of building around existing lines means that it's a much better idea to build a new line instead. The West Coast Main line had a lot of money spent on it from the year 2000 (about £15bn in today's money), and it caused immense disruption with no trains every weekend for years. That experience was a big part of the reason that a new railway is considered a better idea.

Most of the intercity network is now electrified, most junctions that cause delays are grade separated, and trains run up to every 3 minutes at 200 km/h on lots of the main lines. Even the Welwyn viaduct isn't that big a problem, four tracks wouldn't mean many more trains could run because there is nowhere to send them in London. Hs2 is the only sensible solution


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Actually that was researched pretty seriously, the cost and difficulty of building around existing lines means that it's a much better idea to build a new line instead. The West Coast Main line had a lot of money spent on it from the year 2000 (about £15bn in today's money), and it caused immense disruption with no trains every weekend for years. That experience was a big part of the reason that a new railway is considered a better idea.
> 
> Most of the intercity network is now electrified, most junctions that cause delays are grade separated, and trains run up to every 3 minutes at 200 km/h on lots of the main lines. Even the Welwyn viaduct isn't that big a problem, four tracks wouldn't mean many more trains could run because there is nowhere to send them in London. Hs2 is the only sensible solution


HS2 is a phenomenal pile of cash that would be better spent on regions that don't already have investment.


----------



## gincan

tgk300 said:


> Why though? Most people would rather look at a nice bridge than whatever rubbish NR comes up with the a cheap price.


For the people concerned with heritage, just build a copy with 4 tracks insted of 2 and call it Welwyn Viaduct evolved


----------



## gincan

Stuu said:


> Actually that was researched pretty seriously, the cost and difficulty of building around existing lines means that it's a much better idea to build a new line instead. The West Coast Main line had a lot of money spent on it from the year 2000 (about £15bn in today's money), and it caused immense disruption with no trains every weekend for years. That experience was a big part of the reason that a new railway is considered a better idea.
> 
> Most of the intercity network is now electrified, most junctions that cause delays are grade separated, and trains run up to every 3 minutes at 200 km/h on lots of the main lines. Even the Welwyn viaduct isn't that big a problem, four tracks wouldn't mean many more trains could run because there is nowhere to send them in London. Hs2 is the only sensible solution


Welwyn viaduct was just one example, obviously there are more bottlenecks that needs to be adressed. Still, in many parts of the country, the rail network is an absolute joke but could be improved considerably without spending billions, try take a train from Middlesbrough to Sunderland for example, I'm pretty sure I could beat the train riding a bicycle.


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> Why though? Most people would rather look at a nice bridge than whatever rubbish NR comes up with the a cheap price.


Is a function of a bridge "to look nice" or to provide transport solution?

Don't take me wrong, I'm not for massive demolitions. But so much railway infrastructure is "protected" that it seriously affect its operation (and accessibility, when we talk about stations).

I work on small stations in south London. Quite a few of them have pedestrian over-bridges and canopies listed. That means that bridges are narrow bottlenecks and don't provide disable access, and canopies are of insufficient length and difficult to expand. They also require more often and expansive maintenance (like painting) than modern structures.

Sure, the stations might look nice, especially for heritage enthusiasts, but it is not the main function of transport infrastructure.

And then we have bridges and viaducts, lots and lots of them...


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> Is a function of a bridge "to look nice" or to provide transport solution?
> 
> Don't take me wrong, I'm not for massive demolitions. But so much railway infrastructure is "protected" that it seriously affect its operation (and accessibility, when we talk about stations).
> 
> I work on small stations in south London. Quite a few of them have pedestrian over-bridges and canopies listed. That means that bridges are narrow bottlenecks and don't provide disable access, and canopies are of insufficient length and difficult to expand. They also require more often and expansive maintenance (like painting) than modern structures.
> 
> Sure, the stations might look nice, especially for heritage enthusiasts, but it is not the main function of transport infrastructure.
> 
> And then we have bridges and viaducts, lots and lots of them...


Valid points, but personally I would rather keep hertiage bridges than have monstrosities like this all over the network. In the old days ie. before privitisation, BR and it's predessors knew how to build an attractive structure that also functioned correctly. While I appreciate that BR in particular was capable of building some ugly structures, they have nothing on NR and their design team. The Royal Albert Bridge is a prime example. It's a stunning structure that it nice to look at and admire, but imagine what it would look like if NR had built it, would it be as nice? Meldon Viaduct is a stunning piece of design but if NR had built it there is good chance that it's aesthetically pleasing side would have been lost to cost cutting.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Valid points, but personally I would rather keep hertiage bridges than have monstrosities like this all over the network. In the old days ie. before privitisation, BR and it's predessors knew how to build an attractive structure that also functioned correctly. While I appreciate that BR in particular was capable of building some ugly structures, they have nothing on NR and their design team. The Royal Albert Bridge is a prime example. It's a stunning structure that it nice to look at and admire, but imagine what it would look like if NR had built it, would it be as nice? Meldon Viaduct is a stunning piece of design but if NR had built it there is good chance that it's aesthetically pleasing side would have been lost to cost cutting.


This is not remotely true. Brunel and others built the best engineering solution they could using the materials at hand, and it was regularly hated by the people of the time. If Brunel were working today his bridges would look very different.

What major structures have NR built? The newest major rail bridge in the country is the Medway viaduct on HS1, which is a pretty elegant structure _in my opinion







_


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## tgk300

Stuu said:


> This is not remotely true. Brunel and others built the best engineering solution they could using the materials at hand, and it was regularly hated by the people of the time. If Brunel were working today his bridges would look very different.
> 
> What major structures have NR built? The newest major rail bridge in the country is the Medway viaduct on HS1, which is a pretty elegant structure _in my opinion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


Did you not see my included link? Have you not seen the Dawlish footbridge proposals? Have you not seen any foot bridge built by NR? They're _usually _all ugly structures built to a low cost.

While Medway viaduct is indeed an attractive structure, what do you expect seeing as it is on a flagship route? HS2 will also have attractive structures that people like, but unlike during the days of the "big four", the "normal" if you will, routes will get a run of the mill mess that looks awful. In the early days of the railway the structures on the smaller/less important routes were just as attractive as those on the flagship routes. The same applies to stations as even small stations had an attractive frontage that was just as, if not more, attractive than the large London termini.

If the Royal Albert Bridge was rebuilt from the water up would it be as nice as Brunel's work? I think not. I am not saying that older strucutres are nicer because they're old, I'm saying that they just look better in general, regardless of age. The materials used do of course make a huge differance, but that doesn't excuse the rubbish that NR push out these days.


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## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> Valid points, but personally I would rather keep hertiage bridges than have monstrosities like this all over the network.


Sure, keep the heritage structures, as long as they don't hinder operation of modern railway. 

And that's where the problems start. I return again to my local examples, all those narrow over-bridges and staircases create bottlenecks and make stations difficult to access by people with reduced mobility.

Reduced capacity at the cost of heritage might be acceptable on some local branches but not in the biggest and busiest cities or on the main trunk routes.



> The Royal Albert Bridge is a prime example. It's a stunning structure that it nice to look at and admire, but imagine what it would look like if NR had built it, would it be as nice? Meldon Viaduct is a stunning piece of design but if NR had built it there is good chance that it's aesthetically pleasing side would have been lost to cost cutting.


It is great structure to look at. The question is, does id reduce capacity or hinder operations? If not then fine. If yes, maybe it needs a modern bypass. I'm not familiar with local conditions. Since it is in quite remote part of the country I suspect it is not much of a problem. But if Digswell Viaduct on the ECML creates a bottleneck it might need a modern sibling (not a demolition), even if it spoil a view from one side.

Also, we should advocate attractive modern structures as much as we are protecting every piece of heritage. There is no objective physical reason why modern structures shouldn't be nice to look at.


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> Sure, keep the heritage structures, as long as they don't hinder operation of modern railway. And that's where the problems start. I return again to my local examples, all those narrow over-bridges and staircases create bottlenecks and make stations difficult to access by people with reduced mobility. Reduced capacity at the cost of heritage might be acceptable on some local branches but not in the biggest and busiest cities or on the main trunk routes. It is great structure to look at. The question is, does id reduce capacity or hinder operations? If not then fine. If yes, maybe it needs a modern bypass. I'm not familiar with local conditions. Since it is in quite remote part of the country I suspect it is not much of a problem. But if Digswell Viaduct on the ECML creates a bottleneck it might need a modern sibling (not a demolition), even if it spoil a view from one side. Also, we should advocate attractive modern structures as much as we are protecting every piece of heritage. There is no objective physical reason why modern structures shouldn't be nice to look at.


The RA bridge does not hinder operations at all so (for the time being at least) it does the job that we need it to do. I agree, we should be advocating attractive structures but most things made by NR are the exact opposite and are often quite ugly.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Did you not see my included link? Have you not seen the Dawlish footbridge proposals? Have you not seen any foot bridge built by NR? They're _usually _all ugly structures built to a low cost.
> 
> While Medway viaduct is indeed an attractive structure, what do you expect seeing as it is on a flagship route? HS2 will also have attractive structures that people like, but unlike during the days of the "big four", the "normal" if you will, routes will get a run of the mill mess that looks awful. In the early days of the railway the structures on the smaller/less important routes were just as attractive as those on the flagship routes. The same applies to stations as even small stations had an attractive frontage that was just as, if not more, attractive than the large London termini.
> 
> If the Royal Albert Bridge was rebuilt from the water up would it be as nice as Brunel's work? I think not. I am not saying that older strucutres are nicer because they're old, I'm saying that they just look better in general, regardless of age. The materials used do of course make a huge differance, but that doesn't excuse the rubbish that NR push out these days.


The Dawlish proposals are surely designed because of the need to be weatherproof. Generally the footbridges built these days are modular so they can be craned into position quickly. They are functional generally, I wouldn't say ugly as such

This is one of the newest small station buildings on the network - looks fine to me, clearly had some thought gone into the design










If Brunel were working with today's materials he would never have built the Royal Albert Bridge the way it is. It is an incredible piece of engineering which pushed the materials to the limit, but it is entirely functional, with very little aesthetic design. No one would build it that way today, you would end up with something similar to the Medway viaduct


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> The Dawlish proposals are surely designed because of the need to be weatherproof. Generally the footbridges built these days are modular so they can be craned into position quickly. They are functional generally, I wouldn't say ugly as such
> 
> This is one of the newest small station buildings on the network - looks fine to me, clearly had some thought gone into the design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Brunel were working with today's materials he would never have built the Royal Albert Bridge the way it is. It is an incredible piece of engineering which pushed the materials to the limit, but it is entirely functional, with very little aesthetic design. No one would build it that way today, you would end up with something similar to the Medway viaduct


I know he wouldn't but even with all the technology and materials around today, NR still manage to produce crap.


----------



## Svartmetall

tgk300 said:


> I know he wouldn't but even with all the technology and materials around today, NR still manage to produce crap.


I honestly am beginning to think you simply dislike contemporary design. Clearly we've all reached an impasse at this point and it's time to move on?


----------



## hkskyline

* Britain approves spending of 3.5 billion pounds on railway bailout * 
_Excerpt_
June 18, 2020

LONDON, June 18 (Reuters) - Britain has so far approved spending of 3.5 billion pounds ($4.38 billion) to keep its railways running during the coronavirus pandemic, the government said on Thursday.

Under emergency measures brought in on March 23 for six months, the government has been providing financial support to rail companies to keep trains running for key workers despite overall passenger numbers plunging by as much as 96%.

The government has approved 3.5 billion pounds of spending to ensure rail services continue to operate and it was not yet possible to provide an estimate of the total cost incurred to date, junior transport minister Chris Heaton-Harris said in a written parliamentary answer.

The final bill could rise as industry sources say rail companies are asking for government help to stretch beyond the initial six months as passenger numbers are unlikely to return to previous levels for some time.

Britain's railways, which were privatised in the 1990s, are currently running with passenger numbers down by 80% to 90% from normal levels. As long as the country's two metre social distancing rule remains in place, they can only carry about 15% of their usual capacity.

More : Britain approves spending of 3.5 billion pounds on railway bailout


----------



## geogregor

If we keep the "social distancing" rule not a single form of public transport will be viable, and that includes railways.

I think that the era of private operators in Britain is over anyway. I can't see private investors willing to invest in running railways. Even before pandemic many companies operated at a loss, despite being rammed with passengers. I can't see previous loadings coming back for years, if ever (due to working from home etc.). Organization of railways in the UK needs serious rethink.


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> If we keep the "social distancing" rule not a single form of public transport will be viable, and that includes railways.
> 
> I think that the era of private operators in Britain is over anyway. I can't see private investors willing to invest in running railways. Even before pandemic many companies operated at a loss, despite being rammed with passengers. I can't see previous loadings coming back for years, if ever (due to working from home etc.). Organization of railways in the UK needs serious rethink.


Nationalisation it is then. Bring back British Rail. 

Social Distancing, while semi-important, is not a good thing and we really shouldn't be doing what were doing. Why are we crippling our passenger capacity by having most of the seats out of action. We are literally destroying our own economy and transport infrastructure. 

I have heard people say that social distancing could be here to stay as the publics attitude may change on being crammed into shops and trains. I just laugh at anyone who says that. Things will return to normal eventually and all this will be thrown into the history books, just like every other disaster in history


----------



## strandeed

As a taxpayer I don't want to see my money thrown into a bottomless pit.

If a railway is not viable than it will have to close.


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## geogregor

strandeed said:


> As a taxpayer I don't want to see my money thrown into a bottomless pit.


Neither do I. So, let's close schools, as I don't have children 



> If a railway is not viable than it will have to close.


If roads are not viable they should close...

On a more serious note. I understand that some folks, especially from rural England, might see railways as some unnecessary fallacy for "them folks from the cities". But let's face it, none of the modern large cities can function without them. There simply isn't enough space for roads which would have to replace them. And cities drive the UK economy, not some sleepy villages in Cotswolds or Norfolk. 

Most civilized countries invest in public transport, including subsidies for its operation.


----------



## davide84

On a slightly different topic...


----------



## tgk300

strandeed said:


> As a taxpayer I don't want to see my money thrown into a bottomless pit.
> 
> If a railway is not viable than it will have to close.


No, that's the attitude that Dr. Beeching and his poorly judged report had. If a railway is not viable then it must be subsidized by the more profitable routes. 
Do you think that all roads are viable and make a profit? I think not. 

We must not close any railways, we must only open new ones. Just because you're anti rail.


----------



## Vishek

Public ownership will not solve the problems facing the UK rail network. It would in fact create additional expenses for the government without dealing with the underlying infrastructure problems. What's needed is hundreds of billions of dollars worth of investment. A case point is that the rail infrastructure is indeed owned by the state, yet the rails are what is causing the majority of problems for the train operators. If the trains were brought into public ownership, the government would need to take out loans to buy new rolling stock etc... when now it's the private sector that does this. It would increase the debt burden of the UK government without actually contributing to solving the problem.

Of course, UK's railways are one of the most well used in the world, yet also one of the least invested in (at least in modern times). The percentage of freight on UK railways is also woeful. A lot needs to be done (twenty plus years of investment) to bring the railways to a position where it's suitable.


----------



## tgk300

Vishek said:


> Public ownership will not solve the problems facing the UK rail network. It would in fact create additional expenses for the government without dealing with the underlying infrastructure problems. What's needed is hundreds of billions of dollars worth of investment. A case point is that the rail infrastructure is indeed owned by the state, yet the rails are what is causing the majority of problems for the train operators. If the trains were brought into public ownership, the government would need to take out loans to buy new rolling stock etc... when now it's the private sector that does this. It would increase the debt burden of the UK government without actually contributing to solving the problem.
> 
> Of course, UK's railways are one of the most well used in the world, yet also one of the least invested in (at least in modern times). The percentage of freight on UK railways is also woeful. A lot needs to be done (twenty plus years of investment) to bring the railways to a position where it's suitable.


I mean, public ownership would hopefully simplfiy the whole system. BR always managed to buy stock. I would also suggest the government set up and use their own manufacturer to build stock. 1 single company in charge of trains and infrastucture is the way to go. It would of course be split into management regions but that's about it. 

If we insist on keeping it privately owned then I would suggest that simplifying the whole system. One company for long distance and XC series, one for commuter and one for regional.


----------



## Vishek

tgk300 said:


> I mean, public ownership would hopefully simplfiy the whole system. BR always managed to buy stock. I would also suggest the government set up and use their own manufacturer to build stock. 1 single company in charge of trains and infrastucture is the way to go. It would of course be split into management regions but that's about it.
> 
> If we insist on keeping it privately owned then I would suggest that simplifying the whole system. One company for long distance and XC series, one for commuter and one for regional.


Generally, aviation manages to get along in the US whilst being in the private sector. The airports and connecting infrastructure are usually funded as a public-private partnership, but the airlines are virtually all private enterprises.

I actually disagree that management regions would work better. One of the current problems with the UK railway system is that there isn't true competition. In Italy, there is genuine competition between private rail operators and public rail operators on the same route, for example. What's needed is multiple rail companies operating from the same railway station, buying "slots" to arrive and depart from the station (with depots being privately owned).

But overall, the problems in the UK rail sector can only be solved with investment into the _railway _infrastructure, not the train operating companies. This would require the government to spend billions on things like electrification, widening railways, new mainline routes (or high speed railway routes) etc... and I include those routes between smaller cities like Glasgow and Edinburgh. A lot needs to be done in order to bring the railways to a suitable standard.


----------



## geogregor

Ownership is a secondary issue, the problem is organization of the railway industry.

In the long term local trains should be managed by regions or metropolitan areas and then we can think about competition on the long distance routes.

There is no point of "competition" on commuter lines. It just isn't practical, the same way you can't have multiple water supplies competing to deliver water to a locality.

And those commuter railways are the most problematic and the busiest in the country. Post covid they will have to be even more subsidized and better run.

As for this:


Vishek said:


> This would require the government to spend billions on things like electrification, widening railways, new mainline routes (or high speed railway routes) etc... and I include those routes between smaller cities like Glasgow and Edinburgh. A lot needs to be done in order to bring the railways to a suitable standard.


Actually Scottish government invested in lines between those two cities, which practically form one metropolitan region, at least from economic point of view. There are now multiple electrified lines between Edinburgh and Glasgow, much better than just a few years ago...


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## 437.001

🔼 🔼
They've even managed to reopen almost half of the Waverley Line (Edinburgh to Tweedbank).
I even read something about reopening Tweedbank to Hawick (I can't remember how serious it was).

Meanwhile in England, the much-needed reopening of the Varsity Line from Bicester Village to Bletchley (plus the GCML from Claydon Jcn to Aylesbury Vale Parkway) is still not going ahead. 
Even though that reopening would allow transversal routes like Milton Keynes to Oxford, Milton Keynes to Aylesbury, or even London Marylebone to Milton Keynes via Princes Risborough and Aylesbury.


----------



## Vishek

437.001 said:


> 🔼 🔼
> They've even managed to reopen almost half of the Waverley Line (Edinburgh to Tweedbank).
> I even read something about reopening Tweedbank to Hawick (I can't remember how serious it was).
> 
> Meanwhile in England, the much-needed reopening of the Varsity Line from Bicester Village to Bletchley (plus the GCML from Claydon Jcn to Aylesbury Vale Parkway) is still not going ahead.
> Even though that reopening would allow transversal routes like Milton Keynes to Oxford, Milton Keynes to Aylesbury, or even London Marylebone to Milton Keynes via Princes Risborough and Aylesbury.


Out of interest, why wasn't cross country ever expanded to the south-east and to the high speed one?


----------



## geogregor

Vishek said:


> Out of interest, why wasn't cross country ever expanded to the south-east and to the high speed one?



HS1 is a self contained route, you can't really connect to anywhere else in the UK.


----------



## otternase

geogregor said:


> HS1 is a self contained route, you can't really connect to anywhere else in the UK.


is that the reason?
It is true, that the clearance profile of HS1 is different from the rest of England and the power supply is 25kV AC and not 750V DC predominant in the South East. Still that would technically allow to operate diesel trains such as the Voyager with the smaller profile on HS1. Train protection on the HS1 is TVM 430 and KVB, but installing this on Class 220, 221 trains should be possible without too much effort.

So I think it would be technically possible to run Cross Country services onto HS1 (not the other way round), but in fact I don't see any use in extending the CrossCountry services onto HS1, because after all they can't cross the tunnel and just connecting Ashford Int would not justify the hassle of implementing this change of operation.

What should be done, but is currently unfortunately not part of the plan is to connect HS1 and HS2 right from the beginning to allow direct Europe-Midland services.


----------



## M-NL

otternase said:


> It is true, that the clearance profile of HS1 is different from the rest of England and the power supply is 25kV AC and not 750V DC predominant in the South East. Still that would technically allow to operate diesel trains such as the Voyager with the smaller profile on HS1. Train protection on the HS1 is TVM 430 and KVB, but installing this on Class 220, 221 trains should be possible without too much effort.


The class 373 Eurostars initially ran on conventional mainlines using 750VDC and thus were built for the smaller loading gauge.
If you want to run more types of trains on HS1 perhaps this is the right moment to switch to ERTMS, because fitting extra train protection systems is actually quite challenging.


----------



## geogregor

otternase said:


> is that the reason?


Yes, you would need major engineering to build operationally useful connection between the HS1 and major rail routes north of London




> So I think it would be technically possible to run Cross Country services onto HS1 (not the other way round), but in fact I don't see any use in extending the CrossCountry services onto HS1, because after all they can't cross the tunnel and just connecting Ashford Int would not justify the hassle of implementing this change of operation.


As you are answering yourself, there is no benefit in extending Cross Country to the HS1.



> What should be done, but is currently unfortunately not part of the plan is to connect HS1 and HS2 right from the beginning to allow direct Europe-Midland services.


It was debated to death in many threads. It would be physically possible but expensive, technically challenging and with limited operational or commercial benefit, especially in post-brexit world.


----------



## otternase

geogregor said:


> It was debated to death in many threads. It would be physically possible but expensive, technically challenging and with limited operational or commercial benefit, especially in post-brexit world.


I agree it would be expensive. But I disagree on your assumption that it would be of limited benefit. Rather I'd expect it to be of major benefit for the whole of England. England, and Great Britain in total is in my opinion suffering a structural misalignment, with London and the South East creating a virtual barrier for business, opportunities and people between West and North and Europe (and the world). 

And this is largely caused by infrastructure. Be it by motor vehicle or by train, there is little to no chance to bypass London on the way between Continental Europe and Midlands, the West or other regions of Great Britain. Likewise London concentrates major airports, with the four out of the five largest airports of the UK located next to London with a combined share of 172 Mio passengers in 2019, the only other airport in this group is Manchester with just 28 Mio passengers. Resulting from the very good accessibility of London, be it by air, car or rail, and the relatively poor accessibility of the western, mid and northern regions in comparison, most business, money, opportunities and people concentrate in London and the South East. With rather unpleasant effects both for the Southeast as well as for the other regions of Great Britain! Therefore I am of the opinion that any infrastructure project should be evaluated also in terms of it moving the concentration effect away from London. When HS1 ends in London Pancras and anyone interested in travelling onward to the midlands has to walk or take a tube to London Euston this acts as a barrier, while trains directly connecting from Bruxelles or Paris to Birmingham or even to Manchester or Leeds would improve business in the Midlands.

I don't think Brexit will change much about this. Continental Europe will remain the major business relation for the UK without doubt and political constellations won't change that.


----------



## NCT

Why would you want Cross Country services to run onto HS1? HS1 infrastructure operates as a quasi metro with regular 4-6tph Southeastern paths per hour and Eurostars also occupy regular paths. 

If you start sending Cross Countries through, 
A) finding standard paths for them without impacting Southeastern and Eurostar paths will be difficult; and
B) Cross Country trains have the worst punctuality - just because they come from far away on pretty shite infrastructure - this will have a huge impact on HS1 which is by and large a fairly well performing railway;

This is before considering there is no suitable infrastructure connecting HS1 with the rest of the UK network. You could
A) reverse at Stratford towards Temple Mills
B) go to the West Coast Main Line via Primrose Hill
C) reverse at St Pancras to go onto the Midland Main Line and East Coast Main Line.

None of these routings have spare capacity for such a Cross Country service.


----------



## geogregor

otternase said:


> I agree it would be expensive. But I disagree on your assumption that it would be of limited benefit. Rather I'd expect it to be of major benefit for the whole of England. England, and Great Britain in total is in my opinion suffering a structural misalignment, with London and the South East creating a virtual barrier for business, opportunities and people between West and North and Europe (and the world).
> 
> And this is largely caused by infrastructure. Be it by motor vehicle or by train, there is little to no chance to bypass London on the way between Continental Europe and Midlands, the West or other regions of Great Britain. Likewise London concentrates major airports, with the four out of the five largest airports of the UK located next to London with a combined share of 172 Mio passengers in 2019, the only other airport in this group is Manchester with just 28 Mio passengers. Resulting from the very good accessibility of London, be it by air, car or rail, and the relatively poor accessibility of the western, mid and northern regions in comparison, most business, money, opportunities and people concentrate in London and the South East. With rather unpleasant effects both for the Southeast as well as for the other regions of Great Britain! Therefore I am of the opinion that any infrastructure project should be evaluated also in terms of it moving the concentration effect away from London. When HS1 ends in London Pancras and anyone interested in travelling onward to the midlands has to walk or take a tube to London Euston this acts as a barrier, while trains directly connecting from Bruxelles or Paris to Birmingham or even to Manchester or Leeds would improve business in the Midlands
> 
> I don't think Brexit will change much about this. Continental Europe will remain the major business relation for the UK without doubt and political constellations won't change that.


Well, we could spend hours and hours debating why London is where it is and why it dominates economy of the UK, I'm not sure it is the best thread for it.

Going back to railways and the HS1. It was designed as stand-alone link between London and the Channel Tunnel. 

Yes, it would be nice to be able to send Eurostars from Manchester to Paris but that boat has sailed years ago and is not coming back. It would require some serious engineering around the HS1. As I said it might be physically possible but it would be expensive and disruptive for the existing operations. I don't think there ever will be appetite for that. And Brexit has a lot to do with it as well, as border procedures might become ever more stringent. Providing border checks in Manchester, for a few trains a day at most, wouldn't be cheap.

And idea of sending CrossCountry services down to Kent on the HS1 is just silly. What are the passenger flows between, let say, Birmingham and Ashford? 

CrossCountry doesnt have fleet which could operate on HS1, nor does it need it.


----------



## Jeff Hawken

Cross Country did previously run (classic loco-hauled) trains to Gatwick Airport, Brighton, Eastbourne, Ramsgate and Dover. They were mostly dropped from the timetable as unprofitable, so the levels of demand simply didn't exist.


----------



## NCT

Also as the intensity of 'metro' services in London and the South East increased steadily over the years, there's just no room on the network to accommodate irregular services from far flung lands that don't fit into the regular timetable pattern.


----------



## Svartmetall

437.001 said:


> 🔼 🔼
> They've even managed to reopen almost half of the Waverley Line (Edinburgh to Tweedbank).
> I even read something about reopening Tweedbank to Hawick (I can't remember how serious it was).
> 
> Meanwhile in England, the much-needed reopening of the Varsity Line from Bicester Village to Bletchley (plus the GCML from Claydon Jcn to Aylesbury Vale Parkway) is still not going ahead.
> Even though that reopening would allow transversal routes like Milton Keynes to Oxford, Milton Keynes to Aylesbury, or even London Marylebone to Milton Keynes via Princes Risborough and Aylesbury.


Isn't it? Looks like things are moving along still..









East West Rail - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





"On 5 February 2020, the Department for Transport made the Transport and Works Act Order for the Bicester–Bletchley and Aylesbury–Claydon sections. On 30 January 2020, the East West Railway Company announced its preferred route for the Bedford–Cambridge section "


----------



## geogregor

The question is what next with railways (and wider public transport) in the UK post Covid. Numbers just won't come back any time soon. The sector will require huge subsidies just to function, without any serious investment:

What next for the UK's deserted public transport network?



> *What next for the UK's deserted public transport network?*
> Train and bus firms urgently need to find a route back to viability amid the Covid-19 crisis


----------



## Vishek

^ The coronavirus pandemic is widely being viewed as hastening the movement from air toward rail in Europe and Asia. In particular, railways are seen in these places as the "go-to" for domestic travel, as opposed to air travel which is for international travel.


----------



## geogregor

Vishek said:


> ^ The coronavirus pandemic is widely being viewed as hastening the movement from air toward rail in Europe and Asia. In particular, railways are seen in these places as the "go-to" for domestic travel, as opposed to air travel which is for international travel.


One one hand yes. On the other hand with more people working from home and driving (because they are advised to avoid public transport) railways are empty. And they might became significantly less utilized for a long time. Yes, people will eventually go back to offices, but not all, quite large proportion might stop commuting regularly. Railway's incomes might never recover. And commuters are the folks who pay for running British railways.

It will be massive headache for the government. Over the decades there was policy of cutting subsidies and shifting more burden towards the paying passengers (subsidies in the UK are lower than in Europe, that's why tickets are so expensive). That strategy might no longer be possible if we want modern railways...


----------



## mistertl

tgk300 said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but you are aware that you just replied to a comment that is 13 years old?


It's spam 
Quite intelligent spam, that is.


----------



## tgk300

mistertl said:


> It's spam
> Quite intelligent spam, that is.


I thought that this might be case as it's a new account with one post, but I of course wasn't sure and didn't want be rude just in case it was a genuine account.


----------



## Yellow Fever

tgk300 said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but you are aware that you just replied to a comment that is 13 years old?


DO NOT reply spam post, you could be banned also!


----------



## tgk300

Yellow Fever said:


> DO NOT reply spam post, you could be banned also!


Why is this?


----------



## Yellow Fever

I should have said DO NOT quote spammers content because when we do that the forum spam detector could think you're a spammer as well.


----------



## tgk300

Yellow Fever said:


> I should have said DO NOT quote spammers content because when we do that the forum spam detector could think you're a spammer as well.


Fair enough, thank you for the advice.


----------



## geogregor

Class 395 somewhere around Gravesend in Kent:


DSC09510 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09511 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09513 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Wandsworth Common station in south Londynie. Lots of trians travels through there


DSC09740 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09741 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Platforms 3 and 4 are on the fast lines an are normally closed:

DSC09743 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09745 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09746 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Class 455, buuilt between 1982-85
British Rail Class 455 - Wikipedia


DSC09748 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It looks like they still have a few more years in them...


----------



## hkskyline

* £10m for High Street station revamp plans *
Glasgow Evening Times _Excerpt_
August 4, 2020

Transport Scotland is set to receive £10 million from Glasgow City Council for the refurbishment of High Street station.

A new-build, modern and fully accessible station with “an improved presence” is being planned.

The station is currently in a “poor condition” and loses revenue due to the lack of ticket barriers.

Cash for the revamp will come from the Glasgow City Region City Deal, which is a more than £1 billion investment by the Scottish and UK governments in eight local authorities.

Councillors will be asked to approve awarding the money to Transport Scotland when they meet on Thursday. It will be used to cover professional, technical and construction fees to deliver the project.

High Street station, originally known as College, was built in 1866 and has two platforms serving the North Clyde line.

A council report states: “Currently, the station is in poor condition with limited pedestrian access, lack of modern facilities and does not comply with the Equalities Act. Ticket barriers are not in place resulting in a loss of revenue that could support development.”

It adds the project area “faces various social, economic and environmental challenges” which “present major barriers to investment”.

It continues: “Despite development and the provision of a new hotel in the area, significant private sector investment and regeneration are required for it to reach its potential.”

The station is a “key gateway” into the area, used by 400,000 people per annum, and passenger numbers are estimated to reach 1.5 million per year by 2043.

More : High Street station to be rebuilt under new £10m development plans


----------



## Svartmetall

^^ Much needed. Many of the stations in Glasgow like that are in pretty poor condition - Argyle Street is another. In fact Anderston and Charing Cross while we're at it! In fact the other thing they should do is sort out the smell of sewerage at Glasgow Central station lower levels too. On a hot day it can be downright vomit inducing.


----------



## geogregor

View from Clapham Junction towards Vauxhall and Waterloo:


DSC09800 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09798 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09816 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Around Putney:

DSC00008 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00010 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Putney station:

DSC00040 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00043 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Fatfield

Derailment near Stonehaven in Scotland.









Three dead after passenger train derails near Stonehaven


The driver, a conductor and a passenger were killed in the incident in Aberdeenshire.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## tgk300

Fatfield said:


> Derailment near Stonehaven in Scotland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three dead after passenger train derails near Stonehaven
> 
> 
> The driver, a conductor and a passenger were killed in the incident in Aberdeenshire.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk


Major disaster situation without doubt. Driver comfirmed dead I believe. Must have been a massive hit for a HST powercar to kill it's driver.


----------



## Svartmetall

tgk300 said:


> Major disaster situation without doubt. Driver comfirmed dead I believe. Must have been a massive hit for a HST powercar to kill it's driver.


An unbelievable tragedy, but sadly not an unexpected one given how poorly the UK generally copes with landslides around infrastructure. We've just been lucky to have very good operational procedures that lead to incredibly few fatalities despite the infrastructure quality.


----------



## M-NL

When any train at speed rounds a curve to find a landslide or heavy object ahead it's pretty much doomed. And in locomotives or powercars there often is nowhere to go for the driver. All he/she can hope for is that the drivers cab is a sturdy enough survival cell. We've seen to many examples where it wasn't (like a recent accident at Hooghalen, the Netherlands). 

The only thing you could hope for with a landslide is that it actually severs a rail, because that would trigger the track circuit to set the section to occupied. Unfortunately rail and especially continuously welded rail is very strong. Also in a lot of countries they don't use track circuits anymore, but axle counters instead.


----------



## VITORIA MAN

geogregor said:


> View from Clapham Junction towards Vauxhall and Waterloo:
> 
> 
> DSC09800 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC09798 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC09816 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> Around Putney:
> 
> DSC00008 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC00010 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> Putney station:
> 
> DSC00040 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> DSC00043 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


nice pics


----------



## tgk300

Svartmetall said:


> An unbelievable tragedy, but sadly not an unexpected one given how poorly the UK generally copes with landslides around infrastructure. We've just been lucky to have very good operational procedures that lead to incredibly few fatalities despite the infrastructure quality.


It will be interesting to see what comes of this over the next few months, not only the findings of the RAIB investigation but also what operational changes are made to better protect against such a thing. This has been a ticking time bomb and it has just exploded.

I just had a though, imagine if instead of Stonehaven this had been Dawlish. Imagine if back in 2014 the first train of the day had come along at 70mph and dropped right into the sea. That would, depending on the type of train, have been the worst disaster in rail history.


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> When any train at speed rounds a curve to find a landslide or heavy object ahead it's pretty much doomed. And in locomotives or powercars there often is nowhere to go for the driver. All he/she can hope for is that the drivers cab is a sturdy enough survival cell. We've seen to many examples where it wasn't (like a recent accident at Hooghalen, the Netherlands).
> 
> The only thing you could hope for with a landslide is that it actually severs a rail, because that would trigger the track circuit to set the section to occupied. Unfortunately rail and especially continuously welded rail is very strong. Also in a lot of countries they don't use track circuits anymore, but axle counters instead.


Just out of interest, how does a HST compare to a normal diesel loco? Do we think that the driver would be alive today if he had been in a 37, 47 or 50 and are they better in crashes? It seems like the survival cell wasn't up to the job in this case and I wouldn't be suprised if we see some major changes to the crash protection systems for the driver in new build trains going forward. 

As for severing rail to show the section as occupied that is hopeful, but not out of the question however you would need a very large force. Look at Dawlish, the track and sleepers were suspended in mid air overnight with the waves and still didn't break.


----------



## 437.001

tgk300 said:


> As for severing rail to show the section as occupied that is hopeful, but not out of the question however you would need *a very large force*. Look at Dawlish, the track and sleepers were suspended in mid air overnight with the waves and still didn't break.


Like lightning, for instance? That is a misfortune, but it can break a rail in an instant.


----------



## M-NL

tgk300 said:


> Just out of interest, how does a HST compare to a normal diesel loco? Do we think that the driver would be alive today if he had been in a 37, 47 or 50 and are they better in crashes? It seems like the survival cell wasn't up to the job in this case and I wouldn't be suprised if we see some major changes to the crash protection systems for the driver in new build trains going forward.


I can't answer that. The way existing equipment of any vintage handles crashes is kind of mixed bag. Some do excellent, some completely crumble. Some may look sturdy but aren't in a crash.
In recent years the European crash safety regulations have been updated. This, for instance, caused the end for the Stadler GTW, because it couldn't meet the new regulations. The current regulations do however seem to have a compatibility problem in them:








This is a photo of the recent Hooghalen, the Netherlands train crash, in which the driver also didn't survive. A SNG trainset, the newest model of NS meeting all the current regulations, hit a tipping trailer towed by a farming tractor. The chassis of that trailer can be seen on the photo. As you can see the main crash structure of the train, which roughly matches the height of the chassis, did survive. The actual cargo box hit the higher part of the cabin, which didn't stand a chance. Another rewrite of the regulations, aiming for more protection higher up, was already in the works.


----------



## geogregor

In case of crash in Scotland sadly driver didn't stand a chance, no matter how crash worthy the cab would be. The whole loco rolled down the embankment and caught fire. No amount of crash protection would help. Crash protection might help when you hit something on a level crossing or at slow speed collisions. 

The main question will be why the train was going at speed. It already encountered one landslip and was heading back to Aberdeen. I would assume that considering conditions they would go rather slowly and with extreme caution. There was no need for speed as it was obvious that line would need to be closed anyway. It is not like this train would hold other services. And yet amount of damage indicates significant speed involved.


----------



## Gusiluz

geogregor said:


> ...
> Around Putney:
> 
> ...


That's the third thread of mixed gauge, isn't it?
Why does it end up like this, outside the station?
What's it for?

Thanks in advance


----------



## NCT

Gusiluz said:


> That's the third thread of mixed gauge, isn't it?
> Why does it end up like this, outside the station?
> What's it for?
> 
> Thanks in advance


It's not mixed gauge - the third rail is is the electrification.


----------



## M-NL

I still can't fathom the concept of the completely uninsulated top contact third rail. It is downright dangerous. A bottom contact third rail isn't ideal either, but at least it is insulated on three sides, so the chances of getting into contact with the live rail are reduced. I guess that by the time the bottom contact third rail was invented, there already was so much top contact third rail in use that a change would be to expensive.


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> I can't answer that. The way existing equipment of any vintage handles crashes is kind of mixed bag. Some do excellent, some completely crumble. Some may look sturdy but aren't in a crash.
> In recent years the European crash safety regulations have been updated. This, for instance, caused the end for the Stadler GTW, because it couldn't meet the new regulations. The current regulations do however seem to have a compatibility problem in them:
> View attachment 403935
> 
> This is a photo of the recent Hooghalen, the Netherlands train crash, in which the driver also didn't survive. A SNG trainset, the newest model of NS meeting all the current regulations, hit a tipping trailer towed by a farming tractor. The chassis of that trailer can be seen on the photo. As you can see the main crash structure of the train, which roughly matches the height of the chassis, did survive. The actual cargo box hit the higher part of the cabin, which didn't stand a chance. Another rewrite of the regulations, aiming for more protection higher up, was already in the works.


I doubt the driver would have survived in a 37 or 47, however we will never know. They are more sturdy without doubt and have that bufferbeam to take any impacts, however even that would stand up to a landslide.


----------



## tgk300

Gusiluz said:


> That's the third thread of mixed gauge, isn't it?
> Why does it end up like this, outside the station?
> What's it for?
> 
> Thanks in advance


That is not mixed gauge, it's 750V DC Third Rail that was intially installed by the Southern Railway.


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> In case of crash in Scotland sadly driver didn't stand a chance, no matter how crash worthy the cab would be. The whole loco rolled down the embankment and caught fire. No amount of crash protection would help. Crash protection might help when you hit something on a level crossing or at slow speed collisions.
> 
> The main question will be why the train was going at speed. It already encountered one landslip and was heading back to Aberdeen. I would assume that considering conditions they would go rather slowly and with extreme caution. There was no need for speed as it was obvious that line would need to be closed anyway. It is not like this train would hold other services. And yet amount of damage indicates significant speed involved.


I think a that the driver may have had a chance had he been in a larger loco. The rollover wont have killed him, nor the fire. I bet it was the intial impact.


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> I still can't fathom the concept of the completely uninsulated top contact third rail. It is downright dangerous. A bottom contact third rail isn't ideal either, but at least it is insulated on three sides, so the chances of getting into contact with the live rail are reduced. I guess that by the time the bottom contact third rail was invented, there already was so much top contact third rail in use that a change would be to expensive.


What's wrong with top contact third rail? Yes it can be dangerous, but only if you are on the track which, unless you're Network Rail who no what they're doing any where, you should not be.


----------



## geogregor

M-NL said:


> I still can't fathom the concept of the completely uninsulated top contact third rail. It is downright dangerous. A bottom contact third rail isn't ideal either, but at least it is insulated on three sides, so the chances of getting into contact with the live rail are reduced. I guess that by the time the bottom contact third rail was invented, there already was so much top contact third rail in use that a change would be to expensive.


Yes, there is a small safety element but, as tgk300 said, that mostly applies to trespassers who go where they shouldn't go. However there was an incident of train evacuation (in Peckham in South London) where due to miscommunication the third rail was left energized. Luckily none of the passengers stepped on it. 

Still, the biggest problem with third rail and 750V DC is that it is inefficient and can't deliver high energies needed for heavy, frequent and fast services. There needs to be more substations for the same amount of track and even then the highest speed is 100mph (160 km/h). There is also higher risk of flooding (which with the changing climate is becoming bigger and bigger problem for British railways, but that's another subject)

The problem is that upgrading third rail to 25kV AC overhead would be hugely expensive as many bridges would have to be rebuild to increase clearances. Especially in Britain where even simplest jobs reach ludicrous price tags.



tgk300 said:


> I think a that the driver may have had a chance had he been in a larger loco. The rollover wont have killed him, nor the fire. I bet it was the intial impact.


Size of loco is really rather immaterial. Train drivers don't wear seat-belts. Above certain speed even super sturdy shell won't help. You get killed by hitting inside of the vehicle, most likely with your head.


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> Still, the biggest problem with third rail and 750V DC is that it is inefficient and can't deliver high energies needed for heavy, frequent and fast services. There needs to be more substations for the same amount of track and even then the highest speed is 100mph (160 km/h).


You're right about that as many modern units have their traction power turned down to prevent the system from being overloaded. The loses are very high thanks to the low voltage meaning that there needs to be regular feeders with a good supply, something which rural areas are unlikely to have, hence why third rail tends to be an urban/outerurban thing.


----------



## tgk300

Looking at photos of the actual landslip itself it is clear that the collision with the debris was not what killed the driver, but rather falling of the bridge.


----------



## M-NL

tgk300 said:


> The loses are very high thanks to the low voltage meaning that there needs to be regular feeders with a good supply, something which rural areas are unlikely to have, hence why third rail tends to be an urban/outerurban thing.


Third rail only became popular because it allows you to use much smaller tunnels for underground sections and it is easy to build when you use the same rail for current as the running rails. At first there weren't enough trains running simultaneous to make the low voltage/high current issue a problem. Only when the number of services rose that became a problem. But by then a lot of those cheaper to build small tunnels and viaducts had already been constructed, that a simple change to overhead wires isn't possible anymore.


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> Third rail only became popular because it allows you to use much smaller tunnels for underground sections and it is easy to build when you use the same rail for current as the running rails. At first there weren't enough trains running simultaneous to make the low voltage/high current issue a problem. Only when the number of services rose that became a problem. But by then a lot of those cheaper to build small tunnels and viaducts had already been constructed, that a simple change to overhead wires isn't possible anymore.


I agree. Old EMU’s didn’t have much power but now we have 12 car EMU’s demanding a few megawatts of power. Third rail is no good nowadays as it’s not very efficient and can’t do long distance thanks to the losses.


----------



## sponge_bob

UK Rail franchises abolished. Essentially this means renationalisation, 









Rail franchises axed as help for train firms extended


The rail franchising system has been scrapped and a £3.5bn survival scheme for train firms extended.



www.bbc.com







> Meanwhile, train companies who operated franchises that were losing money before the pandemic, still owe money to the Department for Transport from those contracts. Although that thorny issue has been kicked down the road and the negotiations over past payments now need to be resolved by December.
> <snip>
> For now, no train company has "handed back the keys", which would force the government to take on the running of a route. Doing so carries financial penalties and does nothing for a firm's reputation.


----------



## Suburbanist

sponge_bob said:


> UK Rail franchises abolished. Essentially this means renationalisation,


I am not sure it means. Several European countries run on these contract-out model, like Netherlands and Italy.


----------



## AlbertJP

I think it means that the franchise operators are no longer financially responsible for the losses due to reduced passenger numbers, in the sense that they are now paid by the DfT to run the trains while the DfT collects ticket revenues.

(Note that some franchise contracts in the Netherlands already worked that way before the pandemic.)


----------



## AlbertJP

More details about the rail franchising change at: Rail franchising replaced | Rail Engineer

Sounds like this was already in the making pre-covid.


----------



## Svartmetall

Seems like an awful deal to me. Why not just run the damned service themselves rather than pay another entity a fixed fee to run it? That only makes sense if the route makes more profit than you've given the franchisee!


----------



## naruciakk

Svartmetall said:


> Seems like an awful deal to me. Why not just run the damned service themselves rather than pay another entity a fixed fee to run it?


It is such awful idea that it is being introduced as a standard in the EU :'P
When you have your operator chosen in a public tender, you get better service for less.


----------



## Stuu

Svartmetall said:


> Seems like an awful deal to me. Why not just run the damned service themselves rather than pay another entity a fixed fee to run it? That only makes sense if the route makes more profit than you've given the franchisee!


Because a) it gives them someone to blame when it goes wrong and b) the politicians can get well-paid non-exec roles at said private companies when they leave ministerial positions

What's not to like!


----------



## kerouac1848

It's not renationalisation, it's a change in contractual arrangements that means the state takes on more revenue risk. 

It's fine for the short term with Covid in the background, but the government should really be demonstrating this is the optimal solution in the long run compared to alternatives.


----------



## 437.001

Cab ride from *London Marylebone to Oxford (via High Wycombe and Bicester Village)*.

Calling at Bicester Village, Islip, and Oxford Parkway.
Filmed in September 2019.

It is interesting to find just how busy the Oxford Parkway station parking was pre-pandemic.
I wonder whether this has led to a rebalance of passenger flows, now that London-Oxford has two lines (one from London Paddington, via Reading and Didcot, and the other from London Marylebone, via High Wycombe and Bicester).
Before the opening of the Bicester chord, trains between London Paddington and Oxford were infamously overcrowded.


----------



## nidave

NI Railways have gotten on the cab ride videos.

Coleraine to Derry/Londonderry 






Belfast to Larne





Belfast to Bangor


----------



## 437.001

*East West Rail (aka reconstruction/reopening of the Varsity Line)*

Works continue on the section between Bicester and Bletchley (Milton Keynes).

First, here's a video of the works of the Bletchley flyover, which is being rebuilt.







Then here are a few pictures from the British forum.
Taken from: *https://twitter.com/nrairops*

A few pictures of the works at Bletchley:



geogregor said:


>




Eliminating a level crossing at the former Launton station (I guess the house is on the site of the former Launton station building, if not the station building itself in case it has survived, photo taken looking towards Bicester Village).



geogregor said:


>




Eliminating the Charbridge Lane level crossing at Bicester (photo taken looking towards Bicester Village).



geogregor said:


>




Works at an old rural road bridge between Newton Longville and Mursley (photo taken looking towards Swanbourne and Winslow).



geogregor said:


>




The initial works are visible on *Bletchley - Google Maps*

One of the works already visible on Google Maps is between Claydon station and Claydon junction (but not right at the place the GCML crossed the Varsity Line), as you can see on the following Tweet:

*nrairops en Twitter: "Old New meets New New....East West Rail route being crossed by HS2 in the Calvert Area. @HSRailGroup @ProgressEast @eastwestrail @ewrconsortium @Helisean https://t.co/3hbH7KaocD" / Twitter*

Speaking of the GCML, on *Waddesdon - Google Maps* I've spotted some form of works at the site of the old Waddesdon Manor station. I don't know whether they are related to HS2 or East West Rail (or both).


----------



## 437.001

🔼 🔼 🔼
Plus some more videos.

1) the works between Bicester and Launton.








2) the (I guess?) site of the new Winslow station (which apparently will be at the other end of the town from the original one).








3) More about Winslow and also about the bridge at Little Horwood.








4) Demolition of Swanbourne station, between Bletchley and Winslow (which won't reopen, at least not in this phase).








5) More about the Bletchley flyover.








6) Images of HS2 works right next to Calvert station of the GCML.
This is the part of the GCML which will reopen as part of East West Rail (Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Claydon junction), although I don't know whether Calvert station would reopen. It is the last station on the still existing part of the GCML between London and Claydon junction.









Calvert old GCR line update with more HS2 work







youtu.be


----------



## geogregor

East West Rail, beams' installation in Bletchley:

Getting ready:
https://twitter.com/nrairops









Lifts during track closures:

https://twitter.com/Marshrail


















End result:


----------



## 437.001

On another forum I read that the electrification situation is as follows.
However, if anyone could confirm that the two I highlighted in red are actually in works, thank you. 

*Complete (or with works finished)*

-Great Western Main Line, complete from *London Paddington to just east of Chippenham*. Missing parts between that point and Bristol Temple Meads via Bath, and also between Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads.
-South Wales Main Line, complete from *Wootton Bassett to Bristol Parkway and Cardiff*.
-Oakham-Kettering Line, electrification complete from *Kettering to Corby*.
-Calder Valley Line/Huddersfield Line, electrification complete from *Manchester Victoria to Miles Platting*.

*Ongoing works*

-Midland Main Line, complete from *Bedford to Kettering*, ongoing works between *Kettering and Market Harborough*.
-Huddersfield Line, work started on* Miles Platting to Stalybridge *(not sure whether that includes Guide Bridge to Stalybridge or not).
-Dearne Valley Line, *Church Fenton (near Leeds) to Colton Junction (near York)*, work starting.
-Glasgow and Southwestern Line, *Pollokshields to Pollokshaws West and Barrhead*, preliminary works starting.
*Network Rail Scotland en Twitter: "🔊Noisy Work Notification: We'll begin piling works on Saturday evening in Kennishead. This will take place overnight for 12 weeks, working from here towards Crossmyloof. What will this sound like? https://t.co/3OESM8qbfY" / Twitter*

*Approved*

-Busby Railway, *Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride*, electrification approved.
-Huddersfield Line, *Huddersfield to Leeds*, electrification approved.

*Programmed*

-Manchester-Stockport Line,* Wigan North Western to Hindley*, electrification programmed.
-*Hindley to Lostock Line*, electrification programmed.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> From another forum I read that the electrification situation is as follows.
> However, if anyone could confirm that the two I highlighted in red are actually in works, thank you.
> 
> *Complete (or with works finished)*
> 
> -Great Western Main Line, complete from *London Paddington to just east of Chippenham*. Missing parts between that point and Bristol Temple Meads via Bath, and also between Bristol Parkway and Bristol Temple Meads.
> -South Wales Main Line, complete from *Wootton Bassett to Bristol Parkway and Cardiff*.
> -Oakham-Kettering Line, electrification complete from *Kettering to Corby*.
> -Calder Valley Line/Huddersfield Line, electrification complete from *Manchester Victoria to Miles Platting*.
> 
> *Ongoing works*
> 
> -Midland Main Line, complete from *Bedford to Kettering*, ongoing works between *Kettering and Market Harborough*.
> -Huddersfield Line, work started on* Miles Platting to Stalybridge *(not sure whether that includes Guide Bridge to Stalybridge or not).
> -Dearne Valley Line, *Church Fenton (near Leeds) to Colton Junction (near York)*, work starting.
> -Glasgow and Southwestern Line, *Pollokshields to Pollokshaws West and Barrhead*, preliminary works starting.
> *Network Rail Scotland en Twitter: "🔊Noisy Work Notification: We'll begin piling works on Saturday evening in Kennishead. This will take place overnight for 12 weeks, working from here towards Crossmyloof. What will this sound like? https://t.co/3OESM8qbfY" / Twitter*
> 
> *Approved*
> 
> -Busby Railway, *Pollokshaws West to East Kilbride*, electrification approved.
> -Huddersfield Line, *Huddersfield to Leeds*, electrification approved.
> 
> *Programmed*
> 
> -Manchester-Stockport Line,* Wigan North Western to Hindley*, electrification programmed.
> -*Hindley to Lostock Line*, electrification programmed.


Work has definitely started on the segments in red

Huddersfield to Leeds isn't fully approved, the section from Huddersfield to Dewsbury is approved to be rebuilt to 4 tracks including flyovers for junctions ane electrification, but the segment onwards to Leeds isn't approved yet.

Guide Bridge to Stalybridge definitely isn't included.

Nothing else is currently planned - the sections towards Wigan have been discussed but nothing official announced.

(And it all makes sense to me)


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Work has definitely started on the segments in red


Great that they electrify to Stalybridge. 

The bit from Colton Jcn to Church Fenton is the one I don't understand, I mean without an extension to Leeds.
Great that they electrify it, of course, but I don't understand why they do it only to Church Fenton.
Do any trains from York terminate at Church Fenton (or are there any plans to), or is that freight-related?
Or is it the fact that Church Fenton to Leeds is on another line and that is bureaucracy-linked?



Stuu said:


> Huddersfield to Leeds isn't fully approved, the section from Huddersfield to Dewsbury is approved to be rebuilt to 4 tracks including flyovers for junctions ane electrification, but the segment onwards to Leeds isn't approved yet.


Okay. Why do you think that they should electrify Huddersfield to Dewsbury earlier than Dewsbury to Leeds, though?



Stuu said:


> Guide Bridge to Stalybridge definitely isn't included.


It's such a short section, though. 
And by electrifying it, you'd have most of the west side of Greater Manchester electrified.
Do commuter trains from Piccadilly or beyond not use it?



Stuu said:


> Nothing else is currently planned - the sections towards Wigan have been discussed but nothing official announced.
> 
> (And it all makes sense to me)


They were on a 2016 official map, though.
And out of that, everything west of Manchester that was announced as "to be electrified" on that map, has been electrified, the only exceptions being that (Wigan to Hindley and Hindley to Lostock), and Oxenholme to Windermere.


----------



## AlbertJP

437.001 said:


> The bit from Colton Jcn to Church Fenton is the one I don't understand, I mean without an extension to Leeds.
> Great that they electrify it, of course, but I don't understand why they do it only to Church Fenton.
> Do any trains from York terminate at Church Fenton (or are there any plans to), or is that freight-related?
> Or is it the fact that Church Fenton to Leeds is on another line and that is bureaucracy-linked?


It allows bi-mode TPE trains to enter and leave York on electric power, with higher acceleration than on diesel.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Okay. Why do you think that they should electrify Huddersfield to Dewsbury earlier than Dewsbury to Leeds, though?


The rebuilding needs land outside the railway boundary they need to apply for planning permission, and go through consultation and all the other steps. That will take a couple of years to go through. Electrifying the rest of the line to Leeds will probably happen at the same time, but it doesn't need to go through the same planning process so doesn't need to be authorised now.


437.001 said:


> It's such a short section, though.
> And by electrifying it, you'd have most of the west side of Greater Manchester electrified.
> Do commuter trains from Piccadilly or beyond not use it?


Only the longer distance TPE trains use that section, I don't know why it isn't part of the plans for electrification though, I guess it will be later on. The reason for doing the Victoria-Stalybridge section is so that local trains can be electric - the services to Southport will use bimode trains, if they ever get them to work


437.001 said:


> They were on a 2016 official map, though.
> And out of that, everything west of Manchester that was announced as "to be electrified" on that map, has been electrified, the only exceptions being that (Wigan to Hindley and Hindley to Lostock), and Oxenholme to Windermere.


That must have been produced just before it was all "paused". It will happen one day, but it's not part of any programme


----------



## geogregor

London Waterloo its entirety:

https://twitter.com/NPASSouthEast


----------



## geogregor

Hackney Wick in London:


DSC00258 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00259 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00261 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It was completely rebuilt a few years ago:

DSC00251 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Beautiful concrete:

DSC00256 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00267 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00270 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00273 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00274 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC00277 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Fatfield

Problems with Hitachi trains on Great Western & LNER.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1390902235211649027








Rail disruption to continue beyond weekend after GWR and LNER services cancelled over cracks on high-speed trains


The rail minister said routine checks on Saturday had identified "cracks on part of the chassis" of some Hitachi trains.




news.sky.com


----------



## 437.001

WTF


----------



## sponge_bob

The Hitachi Class 800 problem is serious, cracked frames on 2 sets in a week.  The Class 800 is the pride of the British Rail fleet and is to eventually replace the venerable (but still reliable) HS125 and HS225 loco fleet, the worlds fastest diesel trains since they were deployed over 40 years back.

The Class 801 use the same frames and could not be exempt from inspection, surely.









High-speed rail services cancelled after cracks found in trains


The rail minister warns of "prolonged" disruption as Hitachi apologises to affected passengers.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Stuu

sponge_bob said:


> The Hitachi Class 800 problem is serious, cracked frames on 2 sets in a week.  The Class 800 is the pride of the British Rail fleet and is to eventually replace the venerable (but still reliable) HS125 and HS225 loco fleet, the worlds fastest diesel trains since they were deployed over 40 years back.
> 
> The Class 801 use the same frames and could not be exempt from inspection, surely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High-speed rail services cancelled after cracks found in trains
> 
> 
> The rail minister warns of "prolonged" disruption as Hitachi apologises to affected passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


All of the 800/1/2 have been taken out of service for inspection. Once inspected and found clear they have been put back into service, but every carriage needs inspecting in the depots, so taking time. Obviously any cracks found need repairing, which is not easy as they are made of aluminium, which I have seen elsewhere means stripping out the carriage of anything electrical before welding.

The HSTs are all gone from GWR and LNER, and have been for a couple of years (except the 4 car ones running local services in the SW)


----------



## sponge_bob

Stuu said:


> The HSTs are all gone from GWR and LNER,


I know, least they have not been scrapped but cascaded to the Scots and up North or else stored.


----------



## 437.001

The ECML, there are ways around that.
Complicates things a lot, but the alternative routes exist (WCML, MML, WAML, and branches).
Plus local services.

But certain routes on the GWML (particularly Bristol, Bath, Cardiff, Swansea, Penzance, and Plymouth), erm... 😓

At least Exeter has the trains to Waterloo.

For certain places north of Bristol, I guess using the Chiltern Main Line or WCML and changing at Birmingham may make sense (somewhat, at least).
And, thank heavens, Oxford now has the Chiltern service to Marylebone...


----------



## Stuu

This is the current departures from Paddington, so there are some services running to Wales and the SW this evening. Also there is an hourly fast service to Didcot, which connects to an onward train to Bristol. LNER are running hourly services this evening


----------



## sponge_bob

South Wales is cut off for the foreseeables. 









Disruption to Great Western Railway services will continue next week


Rail replacement for services between Swansea and London are extremely limited and people have been advised not to travel




www.walesonline.co.uk


----------



## Stuu

Lydecker777 said:


> Midland metro caf built urbos 3 trams are all currently suffering cracking issues on the inner spring box area.. Again a low floor design which hasnt faired well with the line it runs.


They ordered another 40 of them last month so the problem can't be very serious


----------



## Lydecker777

Stuu said:


> They ordered another 40 of them last month so the problem can't be very serious


 The bogie springs sit offset of the wheels, with the spring box housing in the cabin to allow a low floor design, this spring box housing is cracking, 

Also


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1403118069489229824
The general build of them are quite poor, caf in general are not the best in build quality compared to other manufacturers, the half life refurbishment cost or 620k exam is going to cost almost as much as a new tram, and nearly all of the fleet are at that stage now.


----------



## M-NL

Lydecker777 said:


> The general build of them are quite poor, caf in general are not the best in build quality compared to other manufacturers, the half life refurbishment cost or 620k exam is going to cost almost as much as a new tram, and nearly all of the fleet are at that stage now.


When buying (or tendering!) rolling stock you should specify in detail what you want. If you specify a certain quality level then manufacturers can either choose to deliver or to not offer. When you buy an off-the-shelf product, it is up to you to asses whether it fits your purpose. At delivery it is up to you to check whether you got what you ordered and you want to take delivery. Nowadays tendering/acquisition is more of a commercial and legal process, instead of technical. At many, if not most, operators the departments that could do the technical aspects were deemed unnecessary a long time ago.


----------



## geogregor

Some contrasts of British railways.

We start at Euston and its modernist climate:

DSC06163 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06170 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06168 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

My Pendolino (class 390) is waiting:

DSC06174 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06178 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Distance of 255km to Crewe we cover i around 1h 30min. Not bad for classic railway.

It is important hub from where various lines diverge, to North Wales, Liverpool, Manchester etc. HS2 will end here before decisions are made what to do in next phases.

Crewe station.

DSC06186 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

The set which I arrived on is departing to Glasgow:

DSC06190 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Another one goes to London:

DSC06202 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I catch Transport for Wales train to Milford Haven

DSC06204 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It is two-carriage class 175 which covers route from Manchester to the far end of Wales, more than 6,5 hours..

DSC06208 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

But I get off in Shrewsbury

DSC06209 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

This is the largest still operating mechanical signal box in the world:

DSC06215 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06221 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06233 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06261 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC06264 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Very nice station:

DSC06235 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It is actually hard to believe that I started and ended my journey in the same country


----------



## M-NL

geogregor said:


> Some contrasts of British railways.
> ...
> It is actually hard to believe that I started and ended my journey in the same country


Except for 'the largest still operating mechanical signal box in the world' you can have the exact same experience in Germany.


----------



## geogregor




----------



## geogregor

They missed the record by 21 seconds...


----------



## geogregor

From Shrewsbury to Ludlow and back

DSC06780 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

TfW train, class 175

DSC06783 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Ludlow:

DSC06791 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Old livery of TfW trains (colours of Arriva which was kicked out of the franchise by the Welsh government)

DSC07318 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I do prefer the new painting:

DSC07322 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Craven Arms station:

DSC07328 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Looking towards Shrewsbury:

DSC07329 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07330 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

It is still England but we do have bilingual ticket machines: 

DSC07474 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07475 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I'll catch this train to Crewe:

DSC07478 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Passing through Shrewsbury:

DSC07482 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC07486 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Crewe:

DSC07491 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## Fatfield

£26m revamp of Sunderland Central station announced.









Transformation plans set for Sunderland Central Station - MySunderland


July 8, 2021




www.mysunderland.co.uk













Images show how Sunderland's new train station will look after


Artists impressions show how Sunderland's new train station will look after £26million scheme of works set to begin within days.




www.sunderlandecho.com


----------



## Ashtonian

Fatfield said:


> £26m revamp of Sunderland Central station announced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transformation plans set for Sunderland Central Station - MySunderland
> 
> 
> July 8, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mysunderland.co.uk


Sunderland station is effectively a two track with an island in the middle underground station. Thanks to Wiki the current configuration is as shown below:








The images and renders in the article focus on the street level, booking office concourse. The important bit in the article, I feel, is:



> Major works to the platform-level of the station are included in the plans, with the ambition to increase capacity by* creating a four track, four platform station* that separates Nexus and Metro, on one platform, from mainline services allowing both to expand as public transport connections regionally and nationally, and enabling them to provide access to jobs, to secure investment and to grow the economy.


----------



## geogregor

Barking Riverside station is taking shape:

https://twitter.com/tomcopley


----------



## sponge_bob

Europes biggest and most expensive 'heavy metro' project ever...this one.









Crossrail: Report finds not enough money to finish project


The National Audit Office (NAO) estimates the new rail link will cost up to £218m more than planned.



www.bbc.com


----------



## hkskyline

*Taking the train is 50 per cent more expensive than flying, study finds *
July 14, 2021
The Telegraph _Excerpt_

Train trips in the UK are on average 50 per cent more expensive than flying on the same routes, forcing travellers to choose between price and the environment, a new study has found.

Taking the train is more expensive on eight of the 10 most popular routes across the UK, according to research by consumer organisation Which?.

The biggest price difference was in a plane fare between Birmingham and Newquay, at £67, and a train ticket at £180, more than 2.5 times as expensive. However, travelling by train would emit just a fifth of the carbon emissions that would be produced by flying on that route, the consumer outlet said.

More : Taking the train is 50 per cent more expensive than flying, study finds


----------



## geogregor

London Blackfriars:

https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn


----------



## geogregor

Some rides across South London.

Let's start from line where I work:





Some other routes


----------



## geogregor

A while ago a made trip to Berwick-upon-Tweed. Starting at Kings Cross:

DSC08630 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

My train, heading for Edinburgh:

20210703_074908 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC08635 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

You suppose to book seat in advance. I couldn't do it as the booking system was indicating that the train was fully booked. But they always have one carriage for "on the day" bookings. It was rather empty:

DSC08642 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Unfortunatlyy just outside London we got 25 min delay due to problems on the narrow two track section:








Digswell Viaduct - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Eventually driver hit the acceleration:

DSC08658 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Newcastle and the TPE train:

DSC08674 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Further up north the scenery gets more interesting:

DSC08688 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC08691 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Time to get off the train:

DSC08701 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

We have arrived:

DSC08705 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Station is located where the main keep of the castle once stood:

DSC09423 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## geogregor

One of the main reasons for the trip was to see the famouse bridge:









Royal Border Bridge - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Designed by Robert Stephenson it is 170 years old and still carries trains across the Tweed. 659 metres long, 37 metres tall:


DSC09347 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09348 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09343 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

TPE trains use it as well:

DSC09254 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And CrossCountry:

DSC08717 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC08718 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

From up close:

DSC08720 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

More bridges on the way back, in Newcastle:

DSC09447 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Durham castle and cathedral::
D
SC09462 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And finally back in Kings Cross:

20210704_175437 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


DSC09472 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

ECML is rather boring all the way up to York. It gets more interesting further up north.


----------



## M-NL

geogregor said:


> And finally back in Kings Cross:
> 
> 20210704_175437 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


What are the rules regarding level boarding and disabled access in the UK? Even though UK platforms are much higher (915mm) then the common heights in mainland Europe (760/550mm), at least long(er) distance train still seem to require one or two steps up to enter. I've also not yet seen any 'banana shaped' carriages that are getting ever more common on the mainland as well, to create level access. Instead they keep using high floors in the 1100mm to 1250mm range and the doors themselves do not seem that wide either.


----------



## tgk300

M-NL said:


> What are the rules regarding level boarding and disabled access in the UK? Even though UK platforms are much higher (915mm) then the common heights in mainland Europe (760/550mm), at least long(er) distance train still seem to require one or two steps up to enter. I've also not yet seen any 'banana shaped' carriages that are getting ever more common on the mainland as well, to create level access. Instead they keep using high floors in the 1100mm to 1250mm range and the doors themselves do not seem that wide either.


Although low floors maybe better for disabled access and level boarding, overall they aren't as good has the higher floors. Higher floors allow for the engines to be underneath the carriage but low floor don't and this creates problems.


----------



## NCT

Wheelchair access is provided through the use of ramps. Some TOCs have started specifying trains with level boarding like the Class 745/755 on Anglia, and these trains have a bit of floor height variation inside but there's no obvious 'banana' shape.


----------



## 437.001

Stuu said:


> Looking at tomorrow, the cheapest is £12 and the most expensive is £94. Given they change according to demand, its hard to say what the average is, the most common prices available tomorrow are around £30, which works out at £0.16 per km. The lack of demand at the moment means there's lots of cheap fares available, and there are at least 5tph between London and Birmingham, which isn't the case to Glasgow


That's not as expensive...

And 30 quid for a London-Birmingham looks okayish.
Not 94 pounds, though, that is really expensive for such a trip.

However, and back to the difference in price, today for a Barcelona-Seville on a direct AVE (in 5h 26min) Renfe charges you between €83.35 and €95.05, and that's a distance of some 1,000km.
Yes, the cost of life in Spain is lower, that's certain.
But still, when one compares the fares for a rather long-distance trip on a Barcelona-Seville AVE against the highest fare for a less fast, way shorter, London-Birmingham... 😶

Perhaps those two trips are not really to be compared anyway, as there never will be the same amount of people travelling between each pair of cities, but...


----------



## naruciakk

437.001 said:


> Perhaps those two trips are not really to be compared anyway, as there never will be the same amount of people travelling between each pair of cities, but...


That's not something for _but…_, that's a legitimate difference. AVE have really empty rail lines with much less demand. WCML is horribly full and the demand is really high (I mean, maybe in COVID times it's a bit different, but still). And this connection for 90 quid is probably just in the period of the highest demand, so they try to convince you to use a different train if that's possible after all.


----------



## M-NL

Stuu said:


> Looking at tomorrow, the cheapest is £12 and the most expensive is £94. Given they change according to demand, its hard to say what the average is, the most common prices available tomorrow are around £30, which works out at £0.16 per km.


Just for reference, what would the same trip cost by an average car in the UK (and how long would it take)? For comparison, in the Netherlands you'll be hard pressed to run a reasonable new car for £0.16 per km, in fact, something like a pretty basic 3 year old Fiesta wil already cost you around € 0.33 per km to run, something like an Astra at least € 0.40 per km.


----------



## Stuu

M-NL said:


> Just for reference, what would the same trip cost by an average car in the UK (and how long would it take)? For comparison, in the Netherlands you'll be hard pressed to run a reasonable new car for £0.16 per km, in fact, something like a pretty basic 3 year old Fiesta wil already cost you around € 0.33 per km to run, something like an Astra at least € 0.40 per km.


The government assume an average of £0.45 per mile, so about €0.33 per km, which is total running cost. For the fuel alone it's going to be around €21, or €0.12km. It's 180 km or so, and right now when there is no traffic it takes 2hr 15, in the daytime it will be longer. Fast trains take just over 1 hr 20 and run every 20 minutes, the slower ones just over 2hr. Obviously it depends where your origin and final destinations are, but for city centre to centre journeys going by car is not a great choice


----------



## geogregor

One small bridge and important tourist region is cut off from the rest of the country on bank holiday weekend...









Lorry drivers told to 'take care' after railway bridge struck


Passengers are warned about disruption until the weekend after a bridge is struck in Plymouth.



www.bbc.co.uk







> Passengers have been warned that they will face disruption until the weekend.
> 
> Network Rail said the lorry caused "huge damage" to the line connecting Cornwall and south Devon "with the rest of the country", creating "bank holiday misery for thousands".
> 
> The lorry hit the bridge at Ashford Crescent at about 15:00 BST on Sunday.
> 
> Network Rail said the Tesco truck was wedged for more than 24 hours before being removed on Tuesday afternoon.
> 
> It said: "The lorry caused huge damage to the bridge in Plymouth, forcing the railway line that connects Cornwall and Plymouth with the rest of the country to close and causing bank holiday misery for thousands of travellers."
> 
> It added that about five railway bridges were hit by lorries a day nationally and the annual bill for "such careless driving comes in at around £20m".
> 
> Mike Gallop, of Network Rail, said: "We are urging all lorry drivers and haulage companies to take better care, look out for the height warnings on all of our bridges, and take a second to think before taking a risk and causing disruption to so many people's lives."
> 
> Rail bosses said one of the two lines over the bridge was open, but only one train an hour was operating in each direction across the bridge.
> 
> Network Rail said "extremely limited" replacement road transport was also running between Exeter St Davids and Plymouth.
> 
> Service operator Great Western Railway (GWR) has advised people to "only travel if your journey is essential".
> 
> Passengers affected can claim compensation.
> 
> Tesco said it was "very sorry for the problems this has caused for travellers and we are investigating how this has happened".












The problem is that large chunk of transport infrastructure was designed for coaches and horses and never really upgraded...


----------



## M-NL

geogregor said:


> The problem is that large chunk of transport infrastructure was designed for coaches and horses and never really upgraded...


The problem is that to many drivers of large vehicles don't have a specialised satt nav and just follow the instruction of a 'regular' satt nav and also don't pay attention to the road signs warning them for the upcoming height or width obstructions (or don't even know the measurements of their vehicle).


----------



## geogregor

M-NL said:


> The problem is that to many drivers of large vehicles don't have a specialised satt nav and just follow the instruction of a 'regular' satt nav and also don't pay attention to the road signs warning them for the upcoming height or width obstructions (or don't even know the measurements of their vehicle).


That too. But substandard infrastructure doesn't help as it is difficult to legislate against human stupidity.


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> That too. But substandard infrastructure doesn't help as it is difficult to legislate against human stupidity.


While that is true, in this case there is absolutely no excuse for the driver - there is a suitable bridge for trucks 400m either side of this one, it's not like it's in the middle of nowhere. It wouldn't be on anyone's list to upgrade as it only links a few residential streets and there are plenty of alternative routes.


----------



## K_

M-NL said:


> The problem is that to many drivers of large vehicles don't have a specialised satt nav and just follow the instruction of a 'regular' satt nav and also don't pay attention to the road signs warning them for the upcoming height or width obstructions (or don't even know the measurements of their vehicle).


Maybe start fining the companies operating those trucks with the full cost of the disruption they cause...


----------



## K_

geogregor said:


> That too. But substandard infrastructure doesn't help as it is difficult to legislate against human stupidity.


Given the fact that most railway underpasses even fit double deck busses I would say the problem is not substandard infrastructure.


----------



## geogregor

K_ said:


> Given the fact that *most* railway underpasses even fit double deck busses I would say the problem is not substandard infrastructure.


I don't think it is true, especially outside London.


----------



## Sunfuns

Stuu said:


> The government assume an average of £0.45 per mile, so about €0.33 per km, which is total running cost. For the fuel alone it's going to be around €21, or €0.12km. It's 180 km or so, and right now when there is no traffic it takes 2hr 15, in the daytime it will be longer. Fast trains take just over 1 hr 20 and run every 20 minutes, the slower ones just over 2hr. Obviously it depends where your origin and final destinations are, but for city centre to centre journeys going by car is not a great choice


I wonder how are these car costs calculated in UK or anywhere else. Is that fuel + buying a new car every 10 years + insurance and repairs?


----------



## M-NL

In the Netherlands they include depreciation, road tax, insurance, fuel, maintenance and sometimes financing costs. The period and annual mileage can vary, but often 4 years and 15k km/y is used as the basis. The Dutch government allows a maximum tax free running cost compensation of € 0,19 per km. Good luck finding a reliable car that can run that cheap. Mine is more like € 0,55 per km.


----------



## Stuu

Sunfuns said:


> I wonder how are these car costs calculated in UK or anywhere else. Is that fuel + buying a new car every 10 years + insurance and repairs?


Yes, exactly, some sort of average cost of total ownership of a car divided by the average number of miles driven. The £0.45 figure is the amount that the tax department allow you to claim back for using your own car for work, so it's not very generous. 

Google tells me the average total running cost of a car in the UK is £3,081, (fuel, depreciation, insurance, servicing, parking costs and various others) and the average distance driven is 7,400 miles. Which works out at £0.42 per mile/or €0.31 per km


----------



## Sunfuns

How do we account for the fact that a car can and very often is used by more than one person for exactly the same price? For a family of four going from London to Glasgow it's probably cheaper to even rent a car than buy train tickets for all.


----------



## Stuu

Sunfuns said:


> How do we account for the fact that a car can and very often is used by more than one person for exactly the same price? For a family of four going from London to Glasgow it's probably cheaper to even rent a car than buy train tickets for all.


It depends... for travel on the same day, quite possibly, although same day car rental isn't cheap either. For a journey like that you are more likely to plan in advance, so for next Saturday the cheapest price is £184 for a family of 4, or if you have a Railcard it's only £146 (there are various railcards which give 30+% off the price of tickets). One way by car will cost £60 minimum in fuel, and if you have hired the car then at least £40 per day, and if you aren't coming back there will be a one-way fee.

It's also much quicker by train, 2 hours quicker than the driving time alone, which has to be worth something


----------



## Sunfuns

Ok, that doesn't sound so bad. Indeed completely unplanned journey that far is unlikely.


----------



## Ashtonian

*Lumo aims to be the green alternative to Edinburgh – London flights*
7 September 2021

Railwaygazette.com (Login may be required)










UK: FirstGroup has unveiled Lumo as the brand name for the East Coast Trains open access service between Edinburgh and London which is set launch on October 25 to provide ‘a blueprint for low-carbon, affordable long-distance travel’.

FirstGroup said the name ‘combines illumination and motion’, adding that the service would be ‘a new rail travel experience that is kinder to the planet and better value for customers, making it a greener and more affordable choice for long distance travel’.

Lumo is aiming to carry more than 1 million passengers per year. It is particularly targeting people who currently fly between Edinburgh and London; in June it says there were 74 764 air journeys on the route, compared to 82 002 by rail.

*Service ramp up*
The service will launch in October with two trains each way per day. Industry systems show the 06.14 departure from Edinburgh arriving at London King’s Cross at 10.51. All trains will call at Newcastle and Morpeth, with two per day also calling at Stevenage.

It is expected that three of the five dedicated Hitachi Class 803 trainsets will have been delivered and accepted by the start of revenue services; the first set is due to join the fleet towards the end of September.

Services will ramp up over a period of months to the planned timetable of five trains each way per day. A small increase is envisaged at the December timetable change, followed by full implementation in Q1 2022.

The delay in launching the full service is ascribed to the impact of Covid-19 and delays in crew training. Some initial driver training has used hired-in Class 802 sets from TransPennine Express and further use of TPE or Hull Trains units can continue if required.

*Ticketing targets ease of use*
‘People have a fear of using rail and we will be targeting the ease of use’, Lumo told _Rail Business UK_. It said research showed that only 8% of the population used rail, and the biggest challenge would be to bring some of the remaining 92% on board.

Reasons for cited avoiding rail including suggestions that it is ‘daunting’ with complicated processes that lead to overpriced journeys.

Lumo said very little research has been carried out into the long-distance coach market, which it sees as particularly interesting target. It noted that National Express has been targeting rail passengers by highlighting the price and ease of use of long-distance coaches.

Yield management will play a key part in ensuring trains are well-filled, with Lumo looking towards airline models as its starting point.

Single fares will start at £14·90, and during a launch offer period between October 25 and December 1 every single journey booked up to one day ahead will cost £19·90 or less.

‘We think the price range, with 60% of tickets costing less than £30, will be sustainable’, the company said.

According to industry sources the operator will need to achieve an occupancy level of around 80% to make the business viable at these price levels.

Options will be made available to purchase advance tickets well ahead of the traditional 12-week timeframe. Copying methods used by airlines, passengers will be advised of any changes to journeys booked far in advance

Lumo aims to establish a ‘digital relationship’ with its customers, enabling it to obtain information such as the reason for a journey. This could be used to improve the experience, such as ensuring all passengers travelling to a football match are in the same coach or if rival supporters are travelling, they can be put in separate vehicles.

‘We want to help manage their travel in its entirety, not just sending a message “thanks for booking, we’ll see you in 12 weeks”’, the company explained.

Reciprocal contracts providing support in case of disruption have been signed with other operators, including LNER.

While the new service has been seen as a competitor to the InterCity East Coast incumbent, Lumo insists that its first aim is to bring new passengers to rail from other modes.

‘If you get a good price from LNER, want a first class ticket with all that it brings, or need a train at a different time to ours that’s fine’, the company told _Rail Business UK_. ‘We want to grow rail and bring people to a more sustainable, environmentally way of travelling.’

As part of its work to target air passengers, FirstGroup says that Lumo’s trains ‘are ergonomically designed for comfort and ease, helping passengers to work or play.’

The interiors will have a single class of accommodation ‘which puts everyone in the good seats with optimised leg room’. The custom-designed seats have been ‘ergonomically designed and tested for longer journeys’, with an adjustable tray table, privacy wings and personal lighting.

Passengers will be able keep their luggage close by or, for an additional charge, have it delivered to their final station or destination.

*Greener than flying*
Emphasis is being placed on the environmental credentials of rail travel, with FirstGroup emphasising that the train will be ‘at least six times greener than flying’.

Lumo intends to publish its carbon emissions data on a regular basis, feeding a carbon calculator to enable passengers to calculate the impact of their journey and compare it with other ways to travel.

More than 50% of the onboard catering menu will be plant-based, the staff uniforms are responsibly sourced and can be entirely recycled, and paper waste will be dramatically reduced with a digital-first approach, including paperless ticketing.

*Trainsets*
Services will be operated by a dedicated fleet of five Hitachi AT300 Class 803 electric trainsets, which have been financed by Beacon Rail in a £100m order including maintenance.










The trainsets will be able to run with power draw limited to 80% of normal on the northern part of the East Coast Main Line where there is limited power supply, with modelling by FirstGroup’s engineers and Network Rail suggesting that for five-car sets this will not affect sectional running times and will allow electric trains to continue running.

While the similar Class 801 electric units have a single diesel engine to provide hotel power and move a trainset at low speed if the 25 kV 50 Hz supply fails, the electric-only Lumo Class 803 sets will have a battery which is able to maintain hotel power alone.

Lumo has looked at how to manage any engineering blockades involving diversions away from the wires, with options including transfers to Hull Trains or TPE services operated using bimode trainsets, transfer to buses if no alternatives are available, and even the cancellation of a service if passengers indicate they would prefer not to travel if their journey will be disrupted.

It is accepted that, with repairs following the appearance of cracking likely to be required across all Class 80x sets, the Lumo 803s will need modification work at some point. It is hoped that this can be managed during planned maintenance.

*Staff*
Many members of the Lumo workforce are new to rail, and the 15 driver apprentices in the business only two are existing railway employees.

The company has invested £2m in a training academy ‘to develop a fresh-thinking generation of rail colleagues, focused on passenger wellbeing and on-board customer service, harnessing new technology and caring for vulnerable passengers’.

Staff will be expected to act like airline stewards, visible and available to help, and consideration is being given to getting drivers to make welcome announcements that would mimic those encountered at the beginning of a flight. ‘Can we be more like an airline? How can we make ourselves different?’ is the question the company has posed itself.

If these initiatives prove successful consideration will be given to rolling them out across other FirstGroup rail operations.

*Structure*
Lumo will have a very lean management structure. FirstGroup has invested £15m on digital and IT infrastructure, while some back office functions will be shared with sister open access operator Hull Trains.

FirstGroup said Lumo aimed to contribute £250m to the UK economy over the next 10 years, creating more than 100 jobs and generating over 1 million extra seats on the network every year and generating more than 13 million additional passenger journeys in the next decade.

The brand also encompasses LumoEats, an at-seat catering offer which will allow passengers to purchase from a catering trolley or use an app to order food from a range of high street brands, and LumoGo, a free wi-fi and entertainment centre.

Managing Director Helen Wylde said ‘travelling in the UK should not cost a fortune and it certainly shouldn’t be the planet that pays. Whatever your preferred mode of transport, we are likely to be more affordable and kinder to the planet.

‘We believe everyone has the right to travel in style. We are empowering people to make green travel choices that are genuinely affordable without compromising on comfort.’

Wylde said ‘the reasons people choose different modes of travel are changing. People are now considering their impact on the environment very carefully. They also expect better service and catering. Lumo is a new rail travel experience that is kinder to the planet and better value for passengers, while never compromising on service.’


----------



## Ashtonian

Proposed sleeper train will connect Scotland with mainland Europe


If it goes ahead passengers could fall asleep on departure from Glasgow or Edinburgh and wake up in Frankfurt.




news.stv.tv





*Proposed sleeper train will connect Scotland with mainland Europe*
If it goes ahead passengers could fall asleep on departure from Glasgow or Edinburgh and wake up in Frankfurt.

*A new sleeper train that would connect Scottish cities to mainland Europe is being proposed.*

The German Green Party’s plans would see both Glasgow and Edinburgh connected to cities including Madrid, Rome, Istanbul, St Petersburg and Oslo, with a direct line from Scotland to Germany.

If it goes ahead then passengers could fall asleep on departure from Glasgow or Edinburgh and be in Frankfurt by the time they wake up.

Over 40 railway lines will connect several countries throughout the continent.

Scottish Greens transport spokesman Mark Ruskell MSP has welcomed the news.

He said: “The cooperation agreement between the Scottish Greens and the SNP commits our parties to significant investment to upgrade and improve Scotland’s railways.

“We know that if we want to encourage more people to leave the car behind me need to make rail a more convenient and affordable option for communities across the country.

“It’s also clear that the work needed to tackle the climate crisis can’t stop at our borders, and that we need to work with international partners to deliver real change that offers effective alternatives to flying too.

“That’s why these proposals for a vast network of European sleeper trains are so exciting.

“Linking Edinburgh with Frankfurt could prove transformational in how people travel for work, study and leisure. And of course these links needn’t stop at Edinburgh and Glasgow but could carry on north too.

“With the German Greens in with a real shot of entering government there is every chance that work on these routes could progress rapidly, and I’d urge the Scottish and UK Governments to engage enthusiastically with them.”

*__*

Only proposals by the Green Party but sleeper services from places other than London are long overdue IMHO.


----------



## sponge_bob

Britains infinite capacity to let scammers crooks and spivs run its railway network has been further tested today. 









Southeastern operator stripped of franchise after £25m 'serious breach'


The Department for Transport said its "operator of last resort" would take over from 17 October but assured passengers there would be no change to fares, tickets or services.




news.sky.com


----------



## Paul Bigland

The BR built SouthWestern Railway Class 455/7's are starting to be withdrawn with several already having gone into store. I've collated a photo blog of all 43 members of the class seen over a period of 32 years. You can find it here. The end of the line beckons. The SWR Class 455s (part 1)…


----------



## NCT

Those PEP carriages in the middle do make the class look a bit funny.


----------



## Robert198812345

Surely the 701s are almost ready for service, even if they can get about 20 in service to make up for the loss of 455, 456 and 707 units then it's a start.

Is it just rumours or are the southern 313s sitting precariously close to being withdrawn? Due to the cascade of 379s from GA to GN, cascading 387s to southern.

Anyone with news on new trains entering service? I am keen to know where to keep an eye on the may timetable change. Merseyrail, TFW, WMT, Avanti and SWR. Also units that are being cascaded or withdrawn. Thanks in advance.


----------



## 33Hz

This looks like a pretty daft decision that's more to do with e-scooter hysteria than anything rational.





__





E-bikes banned from Caledonian Sleeper trains after risk assessment


Caledonian Sleeper, the overnight rail service between London and Scotland, has banned e-bikes from its trains. The franchise has elaborated little on its reasoning beyond citing “safety reasons”. The Courier reports that the change in policy was spotted by Christopher Phin, who had been...




ebiketips.road.cc


----------



## Robert198812345

What will happen to the 37 350/2s? Surely they can replace some ageing emus like the scotrail 318s. I'd rather see 350s on Corby services, they have gangways which is the reason why current 360s with EMR don't run as 12 carriage.


----------



## M-NL

33Hz said:


> This looks like a pretty daft decision that's more to do with e-scooter hysteria than anything rational.


Indeed. Especially lithium ion batteries of any size can catch fire if insufficiently protected or after getting damaged.
Next they are going to ban laptops, power banks and finally mobile phones, because they have a tendency to sometimes catch fire as well?


----------



## PippO.SkaiO

M-NL said:


> Indeed. Especially lithium ion batteries of any size can catch fire if insufficiently protected or after getting damaged.
> Next they are going to ban laptops, power banks and finally mobile phones, because they have a tendency to sometimes catch fire as well?


It depends more on quantity than risk.
Railway regulations around the world prohibit the transport of fuel or gas as baggage over a certain amount.
Can you board a train with a 25 l tank of gasoline in UK?
On nationalrail.co.uk page it's not listed as forbidden...


----------



## Robert198812345

Would the 27 TFW 175s be ideal to replace the 26 EMR 158s?

Also would the TFW 150s and 158s be able to replace or support older diesels? For example 150s head to northern, the 158s go to SWR.

To be honest there's just over 70 DMUs coming available soon from TFW. It's the dft's best chance to fill gaps in shortage of rolling stock.


----------



## M-NL

PippO.SkaiO said:


> It depends more on quantity than risk.


I would not like to sit next to an 'exploding' smartphone, despite it only having a small battery compared to an e-bike.


----------



## Robert198812345

Greater Anglia class 379s have all now been withdrawn. Has it been confirmed that they are heading to GN or is that speculation? I personally hope it's true so the 313s finally leave southern and give local passengers more modern better trains.


----------



## Paul Bigland

Morning folks. Continuing my series of picture blogs documenting the Class 455 EMU's I've just completed one illustrating all 20 members of the 455/9 sub class, the last to be built. The end of the line beckons. The SWR Class 455s (part 2)…


----------



## Robert198812345

Can south western railway afford to run services without the 455s, with no sign of 701s. It's amazing how railway projects always get delayed. If I delayed my work I'd be sacked.


----------



## Paul Bigland

Here's a new picture blog looking back over the lives of the BR built Class 315s which have been reduced to just 8 of the original 61 units. The end of the line beckons. The BR built Class 315s.


----------



## Robert198812345

Still no signs of the Avanti 805s and 807s, due in service this year supposedly. Also is there any updates on where the 221s will go to, my bet is cross country.
Any trains entering service in May? TFW 230 and 197. Merseyrail 777 maybe. SWR 701. WMT?


----------



## Ashtonian

New public rail body logo gets the Union flag treatment


A PROPOSED new logo for the body overseeing rail infrastructure across Britain has been revealed.




www.thenational.scot





Modelled on the Union Flag. Will this be the final GBR logo?


----------



## 437.001

*East West Rail 
(reconstruction of the Varsity Line between Bicester Village and Bletchley)*

Bletchley station and flyover








Winslow station








Launton and Bicester


----------



## gincan

33Hz said:


> This looks like a pretty daft decision that's more to do with e-scooter hysteria than anything rational.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-bikes banned from Caledonian Sleeper trains after risk assessment
> 
> 
> Caledonian Sleeper, the overnight rail service between London and Scotland, has banned e-bikes from its trains. The franchise has elaborated little on its reasoning beyond citing “safety reasons”. The Courier reports that the change in policy was spotted by Christopher Phin, who had been...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ebiketips.road.cc


E bike fires can be very intense, several people have died in their homes when their e bike has caught fire, there are loads of videos showing just how bad these fires can get. And I have not even mentioned the DIY bikes that literally turns into fireboms Louis' front door goes BOOM courtesy of UnitPackPower battery. - YouTube


----------



## Robert198812345

Why has east west rail been delayed so long from the 2019 opening date. The Oxford parkway services started in 2016. Not much since.

Plus still a fifth of train services from pre pandemic era are still not running.


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> Why has east west rail been delayed so long from the 2019 opening date. The Oxford parkway services started in 2016. Not much since.
> 
> Plus still a fifth of train services from pre pandemic era are still not running.


They didn't start work until the middle of 2020, it should be done by the end of next year


----------



## Robert198812345

East west rail will be well used, it avoids London and connects most our main lines together. Shame no electrification though, that would have been handy.


----------



## mittfh

In case you missed it, yet more cracks have been found on the West Midlands Metro CAF Urbos 3s - this time, around the doors rather than in the spring boxes... 

Let's hope the ones WMM have on order are better built than the existing fleet...


----------



## Robert198812345

The west midlands metro is far too uncomfortable to ride. Due to being low to the floor compared to the Manchester metro.


----------



## geogregor

Robert198812345 said:


> Rail forums is no good I don't believe the information they give or their sources. Mostly off topic and speculation.








RailUK Forums


The biggest forum for discussion of all topics concerning railways in the UK. From advice on fares, to high speed rail, days out and more!



www.railforums.co.uk





That forum has better information than most of the official press and definitely better quality stuff than official statements from the rail companies. But of course you have to dig into it and find out who is trusted user and who is not. It takes a while.



Robert198812345 said:


> The west midlands metro is far too uncomfortable to ride. Due to being low to the floor compared to the Manchester metro.


Quality of ride has very little to do with height of the floor and a lot to do with quality of suspension (and track). Most modern trams are low-floor. Manchester system is outlier with its high floor. I guess they might try to claim that it is light rail rather than tram system.


----------



## Robert198812345

Fair enough, but this thread does seem popular.
I suppose in modern day life, we like to study which sources we can trust.
I don't trust Wikipedia because they still show outdated information because there's no newspaper article on a specific subject even though we all know it, but can't prove it the way they want to.


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> Quality of ride has very little to do with height of the floor and a lot to do with quality of suspension (and track). Most modern trams are low-floor. Manchester system is outlier with its high floor. I guess they might try to claim that it is light rail rather than tram system.


It's a lot easier to fit better suspension under a high-floor car though... Manchester's system is an outlier because the original system was built to a budget, there wasn't the money to rebuilt the ex-BR stations so went with high platforms in the streets instead.

The CAF trams in Birmingham is a bit strange, they have sold hundreds of trams worldwide and the problem with cracks has only happened in Birmingham and Sydney, both places which had no trams for decades, which is a bit of a coincidence


----------



## Robert198812345

Does southern have enough rolling stock to replace the 455s in May?


----------



## geogregor

Robert198812345 said:


> Does southern hava enough rolling stock to replace the 455s in May?


I would say yes, especially as they probably won't bring service level to pre-pandemic levels for a long, long time. Government is hell-bent on reducing spending on rail and public transport.

Services are seriously reduced in all of south London, by all operators.


----------



## Robert198812345

Espress and star newspaper article says the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line could be electrified as a priority. I hope this line does, as I see it as a busy commuter line for the Telford area. Also possibly of more through services to avoid changing at New Street. Shrewsbury to Coventry hourly maybe.
Displacing 196s to improve capacity on Hereford and snow hill lines.


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> Espress and star newspaper article says the Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury line could be electrified as a priority. I hope this line does, as I see it as a busy commuter line for the Telford area. Also possibly of more through services to avoid changing at New Street. Shrewsbury to Coventry hourly maybe.
> Displacing 196s to improve capacity on Hereford and snow hill lines.


I would hope that the lines through Snow Hill are far higher up the list, if one exists. It's possibly the most frequent diesel service anywhere


----------



## Riley1066

American here with a question about the relationship between HS1 and HS2 ... the last I heard a direct linkage between HS1 and HS2 was originally planned but that the tunnels connecting the two lines in London would have cost 700 million pounds and thus was dropped. 

Is HS2 being built in such a way as to leave open the option of connecting to HS1 in the future or is that being precluded for some reason?


----------



## Stuu

Riley1066 said:


> American here with a question about the relationship between HS1 and HS2 ... the last I heard a direct linkage between HS1 and HS2 was originally planned but that the tunnels connecting the two lines in London would have cost 700 million pounds and thus was dropped.
> 
> Is HS2 being built in such a way as to leave open the option of connecting to HS1 in the future or is that being precluded for some reason?


No, unfortunately there is no future-proofing for a possible link. It would need a significant change in the UK's attitude to border controls for it to make sense anyway - the UK insists on international train passengers being cleared through immigration before boarding, so needs secure platforms and facilities at stations. This means a train which runs from Manchester-London-Paris couldn't carry any domestic passengers, so wouldn't be the best use of capacity. It's not very far from Euston to St Pancras, 10 minutes walk or one stop on the Underground, or 5 minutes on a bus... not ideal but no further than the walk at bigger airport terminals


----------



## Fatfield

There was a derailment at the Heaton depot in Newcastle the other day.









Newcastle rail derailment: Dramatic pictures show train off the tracks


The TransPennine Express vehicle came of the tracks in Newcastle.




www.thenorthernecho.co.uk


----------



## Robert198812345

If the snow hill lines were to be electrified, would it be between Worcester and Stratford/Leamington via birmingham. Also the bit between Worcester and Bromsgrove. Then you can electrify to Hereford and Marylebone.


----------



## Paul Bigland

Here's a new picture blog looking back at the BR built Class 321s which are being retired from Anglia services out of London Liverpool St. The end of the line beckons. Anglia’s BR built class 321/3s…


----------



## Robert198812345

Apparently northern won't train new drivers on the Morecambe to Heysham line because it puts trains and staff not able to run to timetables. So how do they usually train drivers on routes without cancelling services due to rolling stock being used for training.


----------



## Paul Bigland

I've updated my picture blog on @SouthernRailUK Class 313s to the 'end of the line' format and added a link to diagrams so you can catch them whilst you can. The end of the line beckons. The Southern Class 313s.


----------



## Robert198812345

Paul Bigland said:


> I've updated my picture blog on @SouthernRailUK Class 313s to the 'end of the line' format and added a link to diagrams so you can catch them whilst you can. The end of the line beckons. The Southern Class 313s.


According to another forum, southern only have enough stock to cover the 455 allocations. When will the 313s be withdrawn then and what will replace them.


----------



## Paul Bigland

Robert198812345 said:


> According to another forum, southern only have enough stock to cover the 455 allocations. When will the 313s be withdrawn then and what will replace them.


The 313s aren't intended to go until December. The 455s are already being stored and will be gone by May. A lot will depend on passenger numbers but the current plan is to spread the existing 377 fleet by reducing the size of trains.


----------



## Paul Bigland

Here's my final picture blog on the 321s which features both the 321/9s and the 322s during their service around the network. The end of the line beckons. The BR built Class 321/9s and 322s. | Paul Bigland


----------



## Robert198812345

Oh wow, a lot of train classes are leaving us soon. 
318s and 319s are younger compared to the other 31x units being withdrawn so might still be around a while.

By the end of the decade the sprinter trains might be on the way to scrap yard. Some 150s and 156s are pretty shoddy already.


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> Oh wow, a lot of train classes are leaving us soon.
> 318s and 319s are younger compared to the other 31x units being withdrawn so might still be around a while.
> 
> By the end of the decade the sprinter trains might be on the way to scrap yard. Some 150s and 156s are pretty shoddy already.


150s are appalling things. Whoever thought 3+2 airline seating was a good idea obviously hated train passengers


----------



## Robert198812345

The 150s doors banging when at high speed, glad I only used them between Crewe and Chester/Shrewsbury.

The EMR 156s are awful, especially the ex GA units.


----------



## IanCleverly

The St Mellons (Cardiff Parkway) station is a go.









Plans approved for new train station and business park on Gwent Levels


PLANS have been approved for a new railway station on the edge of the Gwent Levels, along with a business park with buildings up to 15 stories high.




www.southwalesargus.co.uk


----------



## Robert198812345

North Wales gets nothing as usual.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> 150s are appalling things. Whoever thought 3+2 airline seating was a good idea obviously hated train passengers


GWR's 150's will be with GWR until at least the end of the decade as they're having issue with the 769's. I am not saying all 20 will still be there, but at least a few 150's will be there to make up the numbers.


----------



## Robert198812345

I think a big order of 195/6/7 units are needed to replace sprinters. Unless the government and lazy network rail pull their finger out and electrify more lines. Then we can have more 331s, 720s, 730s, 380s, 385s, 80xs instead.
Plus I would like all the 80x units to be fully electric.
Then make it law to use diesel trains under the wires on long journeys.


----------



## Paul Bigland

I've compiled another picture blog. This time on the old British Leyland built railcars, the Class 153s, many of which are already stored and a few scrapped. The end of the line beckons. The British Leyland built Class 153s. | Paul Bigland


----------



## Stuu

Paul Bigland said:


> I've compiled another picture blog. This time on the old British Leyland built railcars, the Class 153s, many of which are already stored and a few scrapped. The end of the line beckons. The British Leyland built Class 153s. | Paul Bigland


A pedant would point out that Mallaig is the furthest west you can get on British railways 

I didn't realise Workington was ever a home of train building, was that where BL built buses?


----------



## Robert198812345

I think 153s are only in Wales and Scotland franchises. And going nowhere anytime soon.


----------



## geogregor

A few shots from trip to Devon. 
Paddington:

P1150997 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1160005 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1160002 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220417_082946 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220417_083132 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Newton Abbot:

P1160010 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1160011 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

We do this trip once or twice a year and there is always some problem. This time on the way back we arrived to Paddington over 30 minutes late despite departing Newton Abbot on time. Ok, there was an extra stop due to previous train being cancelled but most of the delay was caused by some extremely slow running in quite a few stretches. It looks like we were signaled behind ether slow moving freight or local trains. 

To make matter worse air-condition didn't work very well. In fact I find it quite often that GWR trains are way too hot for comfort. And our carriage started making horrible nose once we switched from diesel to electric traction at Newbury. 

Crap seats are also getting on my nerves.

I'm developing strong dislike towards GWR...


----------



## geogregor

There was an incident involving Lumo train from Scotland to London:









Lumo train passengers' panic after emergency stop


British Transport Police say 15 train passengers reported minor injuries after the emergency stop.



www.bbc.co.uk













Investigation launched after London bound Lumo train applies emergency brake at Peterborough


An investigation has been launched after a driver of a Lumo service had to apply the emergency brake at Peterborough.




www.railadvent.co.uk





Those articles are pretty vague. According to sources on railway forums driver didn't slow down as he/she expected to be routed via fast lines but the points were set to slow lines. Apparently the limit in that situation is 30mph and the train took this points at around 80mph. It could end up much worse than a few bruises...


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> A few shots from trip to Devon.
> Paddington:
> 
> P1150997 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> P1160005 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> P1160002 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 20220417_082946 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> 20220417_083132 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> Newton Abbot:
> 
> P1160010 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> 
> P1160011 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
> 
> We do this trip once or twice a year and there is always some problem. This time on the way back we arrived to Paddington over 30 minutes late despite departing Newton Abbot on time. Ok, there was an extra stop due to previous train being cancelled but most of the delay was caused by some extremely slow running in quite a few stretches. It looks like we were signaled behind ether slow moving freight or local trains.
> 
> To make matter worse air-condition didn't work very well. In fact I find it quite often that GWR trains are way too hot for comfort. And our carriage started making horrible nose once we switched from diesel to electric traction at Newbury.
> 
> Crap seats are also getting on my nerves.
> 
> I'm developing strong dislike towards GWR...


Your mistake there is to use a British train on a public holiday. I believe the last time that worked properly was just before the Boer War.


----------



## 33Hz

Riley1066 said:


> American here with a question about the relationship between HS1 and HS2 ... the last I heard a direct linkage between HS1 and HS2 was originally planned but that the tunnels connecting the two lines in London would have cost 700 million pounds and thus was dropped.
> 
> Is HS2 being built in such a way as to leave open the option of connecting to HS1 in the future or is that being precluded for some reason?





Stuu said:


> No, unfortunately there is no future-proofing for a possible link. It would need a significant change in the UK's attitude to border controls for it to make sense anyway - the UK insists on international train passengers being cleared through immigration before boarding, so needs secure platforms and facilities at stations. This means a train which runs from Manchester-London-Paris couldn't carry any domestic passengers, so wouldn't be the best use of capacity. It's not very far from Euston to St Pancras, 10 minutes walk or one stop on the Underground, or 5 minutes on a bus... not ideal but no further than the walk at bigger airport terminals


The question and answer probably would be better suited to the UK High Speed Rail thread, but anyway I feel compelled to throw in my two pennies...

This was one of the first hacks to the HS2 plan in 2015. The data used to do it is non-existent - literally when challenged to provide the source HS2 Ltd claimed not to be able to find it. The numbers of passengers claimed seems to be based on the same modelling as the rest of the domestic traffic modelling on HS2, which produces a significantly lower modal shift (and CO2 reduction) than experience in other countries. Some of the flaws in this include not modelling weekend traffic, for example.

The railway industry didn't care about dropping this link as they wanted every path on the trunk section of HS2 to be available for a future scenario where the line is full with domestic traffic. Is that now ever going to be the case with HS2 East dropped and the Golborne Link now looking dodgy?

I don't buy the argument that an international train couldn't carry domestic passengers on HS2, nor do I buy the argument that a walking link between Euston and St Pancras is acceptable. Eurostar launched a through train from London to Amsterdam recently and immediately saw an uptick in passenger numbers. This, despite a next-platform interchange and through ticketing with Thalys being available for 20 years at Gare du Midi. Why did they need to do this? If people will not walk down one escalator and up the next and/or walk to the adjacent check-in area, what chance dragging your cases through the rain on a busy road? Most "normal" pax will not change trains in a strange location, yet alone go to an entirely different station, and this market will remain suppressed when we are trying to decarbonise.

Furthermore, they were able to retrofit check-in and waiting areas in Rotterdam and Amsterdam, create dual-use platforms and satisfy the UK Home Office that segregated carriages on the same train are acceptable for intra-Schengen pax. The way they were able to do it is exactly the way I predicted would happen in a usenet post from 15 years ago, when the naysayers claimed a Dutch route would never happen for the same reason. There is absolutely no reason that the opposite can't be true - the ones to convince are the Schengen governments. Furthermore, HS2 is building brand new station facilities. There is no reason that check in areas cannot be created in, say, Manchester and Birmingham Interchange, with "Eurostar" platforms roped off before the morning and after the evening peak when these services are likely to have to depart or arrive to make sense, respectively.

I think one of the reasons why the 1990s Regional Eurostar was doomed to fail was it tried to stop everywhere rather than concentrate on one or two hubs, and connecting Glasgow and Edinburgh to Paris in ~8 hours with a day train was never going to fly. An HS2-HS1 link could connect Paris to Birmingham in 3h or Manchester in 3h30 where it could mop up most of the aviation market. It would also allow easy rail interchange with Heathrow from east of London and the near Continent. I think people are far more likely to travel to their nearby hub to catch an international service when they know the station from other trips and/or feel that they won't be stranded somewhere distant by a missed connection. If HSx ever does reach Scotland, then a service in 4h30 might make sense. Not only that, but with a UIC GC gauge link, maybe one day we could have considered Continental sleepers making it to Manchester. One can dream.

One of the other arguments put up by the industry is that the connection through London is either too destructive (surface link through Camden) or too expensive (tunnel through to Stratford International). However, I have studied the plans originally submitted for this link and it could have emerged just east of St Pancras Road with only the loss of one building of Camden Garden Centre, which could have been rebuilt higher on the tunnel portal, and the slope would still be well within the 4% allowed for HSR slab track while making it under services to the west. Alternatively, with some track remodelling, it could have come up in the area occupied by the concrete batching plant just north of St Pancras itself.

That none of this was properly looked at (there are mistakes in HS2's own plans for this section) smells of a whitewash. We are building a project with a 120 year design life. Only the current establishment could block passive provision for a link to the Continent on the basis of an extremely lightweight report and dog-ate-the-homework excuse as to why the numbers don't make sense.


----------



## geogregor

33Hz said:


> The question and answer probably would be better suited to the UK High Speed Rail thread, but anyway I feel compelled to throw in my two pennies...
> 
> This was one of the first hacks to the HS2 plan in 2015. The data used to do it is non-existent - literally when challenged to provide the source HS2 Ltd claimed not to be able to find it. The numbers of passengers claimed seems to be based on the same modelling as the rest of the domestic traffic modelling on HS2, which produces a significantly lower modal shift (and CO2 reduction) than experience in other countries. Some of the flaws in this include not modelling weekend traffic, for example.
> 
> The railway industry didn't care about dropping this link as they wanted every path on the trunk section of HS2 to be available for a future scenario where the line is full with domestic traffic. Is that now ever going to be the case with HS2 East dropped and the Golborne Link now looking dodgy?
> 
> I don't buy the argument that an international train couldn't carry domestic passengers on HS2, nor do I buy the argument that a walking link between Euston and St Pancras is acceptable. Eurostar launched a through train from London to Amsterdam recently and immediately saw an uptick in passenger numbers. This, despite a next-platform interchange and through ticketing with Thalys being available for 20 years at Gare du Midi. Why did they need to do this? If people will not walk down one escalator and up the next and/or walk to the adjacent check-in area, what chance dragging your cases through the rain on a busy road? Most "normal" pax will not change trains in a strange location, yet alone go to an entirely different station, and this market will remain suppressed when we are trying to decarbonise.
> 
> Furthermore, they were able to retrofit check-in and waiting areas in Rotterdam and Amsterdam, create dual-use platforms and satisfy the UK Home Office that segregated carriages on the same train are acceptable for intra-Schengen pax. The way they were able to do it is exactly the way I predicted would happen in a usenet post from 15 years ago, when the naysayers claimed a Dutch route would never happen for the same reason. There is absolutely no reason that the opposite can't be true - the ones to convince are the Schengen governments. Furthermore, HS2 is building brand new station facilities. There is no reason that check in areas cannot be created in, say, Manchester and Birmingham Interchange, with "Eurostar" platforms roped off before the morning and after the evening peak when these services are likely to have to depart or arrive to make sense, respectively.
> 
> I think one of the reasons why the 1990s Regional Eurostar was doomed to fail was it tried to stop everywhere rather than concentrate on one or two hubs, and connecting Glasgow and Edinburgh to Paris in ~8 hours with a day train was never going to fly. An HS2-HS1 link could connect Paris to Birmingham in 3h or Manchester in 3h30 where it could mop up most of the aviation market. It would also allow easy rail interchange with Heathrow from east of London and the near Continent. I think people are far more likely to travel to their nearby hub to catch an international service when they know the station from other trips and/or feel that they won't be stranded somewhere distant by a missed connection. If HSx ever does reach Scotland, then a service in 4h30 might make sense. Not only that, but with a UIC GC gauge link, maybe one day we could have considered Continental sleepers making it to Manchester. One can dream.
> 
> One of the other arguments put up by the industry is that the connection through London is either too destructive (surface link through Camden) or too expensive (tunnel through to Stratford International). However, I have studied the plans originally submitted for this link and it could have emerged just east of St Pancras Road with only the loss of one building of Camden Garden Centre, which could have been rebuilt higher on the tunnel portal, and the slope would still be well within the 4% allowed for HSR slab track while making it under services to the west. Alternatively, with some track remodelling, it could have come up in the area occupied by the concrete batching plant just north of St Pancras itself.
> 
> That none of this was properly looked at (there are mistakes in HS2's own plans for this section) smells of a whitewash. We are building a project with a 120 year design life. Only the current establishment could block passive provision for a link to the Continent on the basis of an extremely lightweight report and dog-ate-the-homework excuse as to why the numbers don't make sense.


I think you downplay difficulties of connecting HS2 with HS1. Euston approaches are already complicated (and expensive). Any link to HS1 would only complicate things further, and rise costs significantly.

I'm not saying it is not possible at all from the engineering point of view, it definitely is. But politically and economically it was always a non-starter. 

Britain has border/immigration obsession so the idea of "roping off" platforms in Manchester or Birmingham for international traffic was never going to fly. You would have to invest in a full scale border facilities (and its staffing) and then run service to straight to the continent, possibly with stop at Stratford, at the international platforms. Again, technically possible but would it justify investment? How many such services could be run in a day?


----------



## 33Hz

geogregor said:


> I think you downplay difficulties of connecting HS2 with HS1. Euston approaches are already complicated (and expensive). Any link to HS1 would only complicate things further, and rise costs significantly.


The Euston end was the well worked out bit. It would be a branch from the tunnels, underground or a single track tunnel from OOC. It was the HS1 end that was unsatisfactory. I suggest looking at the pre-2015 plans which are online.



geogregor said:


> But politically and economically it was always a non-starter.


Politically the situation comes and goes. That no passive provision is being made for this is part of a scorched earth policy by the current right wing government to ensure a future easy link to the Continent can't be retrofitted. We are stuck with this for 120 years+ or face a lot of expense and disruption to make it happen.



geogregor said:


> Britain has border/immigration obsession so the idea of "roping off" platforms in Manchester or Birmingham for international traffic was never going to fly.


Again, I can't see why this would be the case for outbound passengers when they are perfectly happy to allow it for inbound - and provide border staffing for 2 or 3 trains a day out of the Netherlands.



geogregor said:


> and then run service to straight to the continent,


Again, as I have said above, segregating trains and platforms so that some carriages are for intra-Schengen passengers and others are for UK-bound seems to be fine for the UK Government when talking about inbound. Surely that is worse in terms of risk of illegal immigrants getting through? Why would they not allow this outbound? The higher load factor, and the ability to tap markets not willing to go into London from two of Britain's other major cities and the Thames Valley, is just as valid as a direct service to Amsterdam.



geogregor said:


> How many such services could be run in a day?


The numbers last quoted by HS2 Ltd were 5,200 pax per day each way using the HS1-HS2 link (1.9m per annum) with a service interval of a train every 2 hours. They also predicted 3,600 domestic pax each way per day using the link. However, these numbers are lower than Greengauge 21's modelling and coming from a source that excludes several unjustified additional contributions such as weekend (leisure) traffic. If the base case is equivalent to 10 typical high speed trains each way, per day, I'd say that is a good start. They also didn't look at tapping the now electrified GWML.


----------



## NCT

Let's just say the Department of Transport can only do what the Home Office and Treasury allow it to do. Whatever the Dutch government may deem value-for-money might not be considered the same by UK Treasury.


----------



## Robert198812345

Anyone buy cheap tickets in the sale today? I'm heading south to Wellingborough to tick the 360s off my list of classes I've travelled on. They currently get bad publicity, so going to try for myself.

Could the 360s be replaced by the 350/2 units? They have end gangways, only needs one guard rather than proposed 3 for the 12 car units. Plus could do an hourly London to Leicester stopper to give Wellingborough better connection northbound. Then extend to Nottingham. Then the Grimsby train could terminate at Nottingham on same platform for easy connections. Can't see the line towards lincoln being electrified unless Newark crossover is removed to improve services on the line.


----------



## geogregor

Stuu said:


> Your mistake there is to use a British train on a public holiday. I believe the last time that worked properly was just before the Boer War.


Possibly. But there was no engineering planned on that route.

Oh, and I forgot tomention, the GWR trains are absolutely filthy. You can barely see through the windows. Which is shame as it is a very scenic route:


20220417_111729 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220417_111944 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

Don't they wash exteriors of their trains?


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> Possibly. But there was no engineering planned on that route.
> 
> Oh, and I forgot tomention, the GWR trains are absolutely filthy. You can barely see through the windows. Which is shame as it is a very scenic route:


Often the Reading-Paddington section runs as two tracks rather than four on Sundays/bank holidays which is prone to going wrong. 

They have never been very good at keeping their trains clean, I think lots of trains get stabled away from depots so they have quite a long cycle between visits to anywhere with a wash. It must be better now they don't dump the contents of the toilets on the tracks/carriages


----------



## Robert198812345

Future of class 180s and 222s from EMR. 
222s Maybe to replace castle sets or inter 7 city sets. Or to displace 158s, 165s, 166s, 170s to help withdraw the worse looking 150s.
180s to Grand Central seems obvious but nothing confirmed.

i don't think anyone would want the 36 150s at TFW unless they are in better condition than northern ones, like for like maybe. The end gangways are handy.


----------



## Stuu

madannie said:


> Something stirring with electrification of most of the rest of the Midland Mainline. Only briefings at the moment, but mention of invitations to tender by the end of the year.
> 
> AM I missing it, or i the direct route through the Erewash Valley missing from the list?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Briefings start for £1bn Midland Mainline Electrification plan
> 
> 
> Market engagement starts for next seven sections covering 139km route to Sheffield
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.constructionenquirer.com


That's where the bimode trains come in, no need to wire the diversion routes, at least not with the same urgency


----------



## AlbertJP

It's simply following the routes of the EMR Intercity services to Nottingham and Sheffield. The entire service can be electrified that way. I can imagine that they would replace their bi-mode fleet by all-electric at that point because maintaining bi-modes just for the occasional diversion would be expensive. CrossCountry could well use bi-modes given many bits and pieces of their network have been electrified by now.


----------



## Robert198812345

Would hs2 build atleast the junction south of east Midlands parkway before electrification of the MML reaches that area.


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> Would hs2 build atleast the junction south of east Midlands parkway before electrification of the MML reaches that area.


Almost certainly not. Electrification will get to Leicester in the next couple of years, so _should _get to Derby/Nottingham by 2028 or something. HS2 won't be there till 2035


----------



## Robert198812345

Stuu said:


> Almost certainly not. Electrification will get to Leicester in the next couple of years, so _should _get to Derby/Nottingham by 2028 or something. HS2 won't be there till 2035


Well when they do the ohle works, surely they would place the equipment in such a way that there is space between the catenary for the junction.

Any news on Leeds to Bradford interchange electrification works?


----------



## CityDreamer

Well it finaly opened - Crossrail, or as it's now called, the Elizabeth line. Not all of it, just the parts from Paddington to Abbey Wood. The western part towards Reading is due to open next year
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-61507125


----------



## CityDreamer

Oops - I didn't realise there was another thread that covers urban rail in London (Crossrail and Thameslink). A lot more info and photos about the Elizabeth line there.
LONDON | Network Rail: Overground, Thameslink, Crossrail


----------



## NODDING CAT CHANNEL

Wanna see the new Elizabeth Line in London in action? Watch the video below.
The line has opened on May 24th in segments and will be fully integrated later this year!
It's ultra modern and speedy!

The trip on the film is from Abbey Wood to Southall


----------



## Robert198812345

Wolverhampton to shrewsbury could be the next line to be announced for electrification. This is the line everyone since day one has asked for. Are there any other lines that could be done that are surely top of priority now? 

Birmingham to Derby, and camp hill line.
Water Orton to Ely.
Chester to Crewe and Warrington.
Bidston to Wrexham.
Blackpool South.
Sheffield to Leeds.


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> Wolverhampton to shrewsbury could be the next line to be announced for electrification. This is the line everyone since day one has asked for. Are there any other lines that could be done that are surely top of priority now?
> 
> Birmingham to Derby, and camp hill line.
> Water Orton to Ely.
> Chester to Crewe and Warrington.
> Bidston to Wrexham.
> Blackpool South.
> Sheffield to Leeds.


No chance at all for Shrewsbury. Both Wales and the West Midlands have brand new DMUs on order, when really they should have gone with bi-modes, so most of your list is unlikely. Cross Country don't have any either. 

Realistically, the next sensible routes after the Midland Mainline are finishing the GWR electrification to Bristol and Oxford. Felixstowe is an obvious one, as is London Gateway.

The Snow Hill lines in Birmingham are the most glaringly in need of electrification. I don't think there is _anywhere in the world_ that runs as frequently through a city centre on diesel as those


----------



## Robert198812345

Surely they are going to have to electrify more regional lines to help allow withdrawal of class 150s atleast. I mentioned earlier in this thread about the 36 TFW 150s. If northern don't want them then they could be first units scrapped. But as they have recently been refurbished, could they replace any knackered northern units. Also I still think the ex TFW 158s should be split between gwr and swr. Finally the 175s I think would be perfect to replace 158s at EMR. They worked fine side by side with 158s at TFW, so it's surely an improvement.


----------



## geogregor

Balcombe Viaduct in Sussex, on the main line linking London and Brighton. Opened in 1842 so it is in service for 180 years now. Of course it is listed now.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouse_Valley_Viaduct




P1200563 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220527_161214 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220527_161400 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20220527_161552 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200590 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200578 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200581 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200608 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200627 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200628 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200636 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200637 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200638 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1200643 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

I wonder how many modern structures will survive that long.


----------



## geogregor

Some aerial shots of Barking Riverside Extension:


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> Surely they are going to have to electrify more regional lines to help allow withdrawal of class 150s atleast. I mentioned earlier in this thread about the 36 TFW 150s. If northern don't want them then they could be first units scrapped. But as they have recently been refurbished, could they replace any knackered northern units. Also I still think the ex TFW 158s should be split between gwr and swr. Finally the 175s I think would be perfect to replace 158s at EMR. They worked fine side by side with 158s at TFW, so it's surely an improvement.


I'm not all that interested in different classes of trains as such, so from the article on Wikipedia 150s now only run in Wales, the South West and various bits of the north. They are already planned to disappear from Wales when the Valley lines are electrified over the next few years. Northern and GWR both use them on lines which have no chance of being electrified before they fall to bits, so they will need to be replaced by something including a diesel engine, or perhaps battery with charging at termini. It will be a long time before electrification reaches Exmouth or St Ives.

I remember my dad taking me to a pre-launch introduction thing about the exciting new trains (150s) coming to my local line, so them being sent for scrap makes me feel very old


----------



## Robert198812345

GWR are looking to procure 30 X 4 carriage emu's.
Scotrail are also looking to procure new rolling stock to replace the 318s, 320s and 156s.


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> GWR are looking to procure 30 X 4 carriage emu's.


Not extra ones though, just ones to run the existing service as the lease is running out on the current fleet.


----------



## Robert198812345

Stuu said:


> Not extra ones though, just ones to run the existing service as the lease is running out on the current fleet.


There's exactly the same amount of carriages available with the 379s that don't have a home, but expensive leasing costs.


----------



## Robert198812345

Just dawned on me that EMR have finally installed a 19:46 Nottingham to Boston and a 21:49 to Sleaford. Atleast it's filled the 2 hour gap in the evening service, plus gives people an option to use a later service rather than all cramming into the last Norwich and Boston which was before 21:00.


----------



## 437.001

*East West Rail*

An update with images from Winslow station and a road bridge at Little Horwood.


----------



## 437.001

*Trans Pennine Route Electrification*

Colton Junction to Church Fenton (video from January 2022)


----------



## 437.001

Hello.

What's the state of electrifications in Britain, at the moment?

I've read they've started with at least one of the Valley Lines in Wales (don't know which one/s).
Also Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-Church Fenton-York (or bits of it).
And some extra part of the Midland Main Line (Market Harborough-Leicester?).

Is there anything else going on, Scotland, West Midlands and around Manchester/Liverpool in particular?

==============================================

On the other hand, any news about the works to reopen Bicester-Bletchley?


----------



## Robert198812345

railmap.azurewebsites.net/Public/ElectrificationMap


This is an updated map of railway electrification.


----------



## Stuu

437.001 said:


> Hello.
> 
> What's the state of electrifications in Britain, at the moment?
> 
> I've read they've started with at least one of the Valley Lines in Wales (don't know which one/s).
> Also Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-Church Fenton-York (or bits of it).
> And some extra part of the Midland Main Line (Market Harborough-Leicester?).
> 
> Is there anything else going on, Scotland, West Midlands and around Manchester/Liverpool in particular?
> 
> ==============================================
> 
> On the other hand, any news about the works to reopen Bicester-Bletchley?


All the lines north from Cardiff Queen Street are being electrified, poles and wires are appearing, due to start going live by the end of 2023:









The line to Barrhead in southern Glasgow is being done now, there is a proper plan to electrify lines to Perth, Dundee and the line to Galashiels, but nothing underway yet

Bolton to Wigan is having enabling works, bridges rebuilt etc.

The Midland main line is being worked on as far as Market Harborough, and the section to Leicester has been contracted 

There's a short section being done between York and Leeds, the government have promised it all will be, but I wouldn't believe them if they said the sun would rise tomorrow, so who knows

Bicester to Bletchley is progressing well, some recent photos in this thread on railforums


----------



## Robert198812345

Leeds to Bradford interchange. Hopefully that means grand Central can look at new rolling stock. The 180s should be scrapped.

Didcot to Oxford.

Edinburgh to dalmeny, just south of the forth bridge.

Liverpool south parkway to Manchester.

There is also another line being considered for electrification that goes through Warrington bank quay low level.


----------



## geogregor

Robert198812345 said:


> Didcot to Oxford.


Is anything happening there? I know all the signaling is ready for electrification but I have not sen any news about further progress there.


----------



## Robert198812345

Once 50% of the UK rail network is electrified then I'll be happy.

Any news on opening dates for Brent cross west, Dalcross and reading Green park.


----------



## geogregor

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580837972479336448


----------



## geogregor

Got some photos myself. Unfortunately tickets to get close were sold out:

P1340565 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1340573 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1340575 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1340577 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1340579 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221016_143314 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221016_142730 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


----------



## bifhihher

👆What was the air quality in the hall?


----------



## M-NL

The question is, why is a locomotive on static display smoking and steaming?


----------



## geogregor

bifhihher said:


> 👆What was the air quality in the hall?


Not bad, you could hardly smell anything even just a few meters away. It is worth remembering that Kings Cross was designed with steam trains in mind, it is vast space not some dingy underground station.



M-NL said:


> The question is, why is a locomotive on static display smoking and steaming?


I think they kept fire on minimum, so it "feels alive" and not like museum display. And also so they don't have to fire it up from cold later


----------



## Robert198812345

Broken down lner azuma 800111 in sidings south of newark station, same place the GC was left after breaking down a few weeks ago.


----------



## geogregor

Some stats:



Rail infrastructure and assets | ORR Data Portal

























__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582342503524552705


----------



## geogregor

Webinar about new rail test track in Wales. Construction is just starting:














Global centre of rail excellence in Wales | GOV.WALES


We are developing proposals for a modern rail industry testing facility in south Wales.




gov.wales







> The Nant Helen surface mine site will include:
> 
> electrified high-speed outer rail testing track (6.9km) with testing speeds of up to 110mph
> electrified low-speed infrastructure testing track (4.5km) allowing speeds of up to 40mph
> dual platform station environment
> 25kv overhead line equipment (OLE) infrastructure
> The Onllwyn washery site will include:
> 
> research, development, education and training/conference centre
> an operations and control centre/office
> staff facilities
> rolling stock storage/sidings
> rolling stock maintenance facility
> 25kv overhead line equipment (OLE) infrastructure
> Infrastructure will be made up of:
> 
> access routes
> staff car parking
> drainage
> lighting
> mobile and land-based communications ‘hyper-connectivity’
> CCTV
> perimeter/security fencing which may include sound controlas required
> Neath and Brecon branch line connection and signalling upgrade


----------



## Robert198812345

Merseyrail won't have the oldest stock for much longer hopefully.

Anyone been on a wmr class 196 yet?


----------



## 437.001

I really didn't know where to put this video because it is about both HS2 and the Bicester to Bletchley part of East-West Rail, but I've seen a thing that's related to the latter, and I have a question about it, so I put it here.

The video shows the area between Calvert and Claydon Junction, and on it we seem to see earth works for what looks like the reinstatement of the Claydon to Aylesbury line.
Is that correct? Are there actual works to reinstate the old line, or is that HS2-related?
I'm asking because on much of that stretch, both lines would run parallel.





Video by *The Boy*


----------



## Stuu

HS2 construction means destroying the existing route, and it also includes putting back the earthworks for the line, but doesn't include laying the tracks. That's a different decision.


----------



## metrogogo

The high-speed rail link between Birmingham and London.
A considerable amount of terraced landscaping is taking place between Moor Street and Park Street, so it will be interesting to see what develops here. On Curzon Street, a second tower crane is now operating.
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
High Speed Rail 2 (HS2) Curzon Street Works by metrogogo, on Flickr
by metrogogo, on Flickr


----------



## Robert198812345

I thought all EMR 158s had usb sockets at seats, I've been on a few different units lately and they don't have any. Also I hope EMR refurbish these units as they are staying with them. I think once all the 170s are cascaded then the 158s will only be used on Liverpool to Norwich services.

Also I'm looking forward to a journey on a TFW 231 and wmr 196 in a few weeks. Maybe a 197 if they are in service too.

Anyone been on a 196, what is your opinion on them in terms of ride quality and interior.


----------



## geogregor

Electrification of the next stretch of MML is just starting, to just south of Leicester:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588155015797116935


----------



## geogregor

I would live to try a ride in one of those:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588482429378973696


----------



## Stuu

geogregor said:


> I would live to try a ride in one of those:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588482429378973696


There are still a couple of cars in existence but not in good condition. They must have been horrible things to travel in, especially in hot weather


----------



## 437.001

geogregor said:


> Electrification of the next stretch of MML is just starting, to just south of Leicester:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588155015797116935


Great news.
How long is the stretch between that junction and Leicester station?
That small stretch could be a very interesting boost to increase the use of electric trains on the Midland Main Line, I suppose.


----------



## Robert198812345

The mml will currently be a cul-de-sac of electrification. Unless the government push to electrify routes out of Sheffield towards Leeds, Stockport and Lincoln etc. Or Leicester to Birmingham and Ely. Derby to Birmingham. Nottingham to Worksop and Lincoln.


----------



## AlbertJP

That's what it already is at the moment, with electrification until Corby. It is essentially an island given (if I remember correctly) the freight links to/from the North London Line aren't electrified either.

The proposed solution is to use class 810 bi-modes, just like a number of other operators are already doing (or planning to do) on routes out of King's Cross or Euston to non-electrified destinations.


----------



## NCT

437.001 said:


> Great news.
> How long is the stretch between that junction and Leicester station?
> That small stretch could be a very interesting boost to increase the use of electric trains on the Midland Main Line, I suppose.


The MML is due Class 810 electro-diesel (bi-mode) trains for the inter-city services. Electrification up to Leicester (from Market Harborough, up to which electrification work has been ongoing for a while) means another 10 minutes of running in electric mode.


----------



## Fortyfiver

Stuu said:


> There are still a couple of cars in existence but not in good condition. They must have been horrible things to travel in, especially in hot weather


I believe they were indeed horrible, not least because smoking was allowed on the upper deck (no ventilation or a/c, of course). I have a feeling that latterly they were used only on the Bexleyheath line (open to correction on this).


----------



## Robert198812345

Another inconvenient rail strike due later this month. Many passengers like myself have had enough of them. As some of us rely on trains to get to work.

I have missed days at work.

Does anyone know if I have any rights if I can't get to work and my employer won't pay me or threatened to lay staff off for continuing absence due to rail strikes.


----------



## ChrisN11

The strange thing is that most of the recent strike days have been on Saturdays, whereas in past decades they were nearly always restricted to working days. This quite defeats the purpose of a strike, which is to damage the economy and so force the government to cave in. It appears that the unions are no longer doing this, but just want to ruin people's weekends.


----------



## Stuu

Robert198812345 said:


> Does anyone know if I have any rights if I can't get to work and my employer won't pay me or threatened to lay staff off for continuing absence due to rail strikes.


None whatsoever, unfortunately. An employer has the right to dismiss you for punctuality/absence, it's up to you to get there on time, in law. Although I would think it was time to move to another job if my employer made those sort of threats, not exactly supportive is it?


----------



## otternase

Stuu said:


> Although I would think it was time to move to another job if my employer made those sort of threats, not exactly supportive is it?


exactely! If my employer would threaten me just because I'm late or miss work for a good reason such as a railway strike, I would not wonder which rights I might have against the railway operator or the union, but would immediately start searching for alternative employment!


----------



## geogregor

ChrisN11 said:


> The strange thing is that most of the recent strike days have been on Saturdays, whereas in past decades they were nearly always restricted to working days. This quite defeats the purpose of a strike, which is to damage the economy and so force the government to cave in. It appears that the unions are no longer doing this, but just want to ruin people's weekends.


Weekend traffic and revenue recovered much better than peak flows during the week. If unions want to hit rail companies when it hurts (which means financially) nowadays strikes during weekends might make more sense.

Strikes during the week are much less effective than in the past. Most affluent folks from commuter towns, (typical Tory voters), simply work that day from home. They don't complain to their local MP, as they might have done in the past etc. In fact they might feel strike during weekend more, when thay might wish to go for sporting event or day out in the city. 

People who suffer most are the less paid manual workers who have to commute, often in the cities (especially London) than in commuter towns.

Meanwhile, electrification in Wales:









Overhead power lines installed for South Wales Metro | New Civil Engineer


The project is being delivered by Transport for Wales (TfW) on the Core Valley Lines in South Wales. Amey, Balfour Beatty and Alun Griffiths are acting as




www.newcivilengineer.com







> The first electrification lines that will power the new South Wales Metro have been installed.
> 
> The project is being delivered by Transport for Wales (TfW) on the Core Valley Lines in South Wales. Amey, Balfour Beatty and Alun Griffiths are acting as main contractors on the South Wales Metro project.
> 
> *Overhead Line Equipment will be installed on 170km of track across the Core Valleys Lines (Treherbert, Aberdare, Merthyr, Rhymney, Coryton, Bay and City Lines)* and the steel posts will be mounted upon foundations spaced between 20m and 65m apart along the length of the track.
> 
> The South Wales Metro will be an integrated network of bus, rail and active travel (walking and cycling) that will improve connectivity and make sustainable travel easier across South Wales.
> 
> TfW director of safety and sustainability Leyton Powell said: “Installation of the first electrical lines is a major step forward for us at TfW and once completed, this programme of works will provide greener transport for the future.
> 
> “However, it’s fundamental that we highlight that electrification work is now underway and therefore the public must understand the risks and dangers. As always, trespassing on the railway is dangerous and it’s important that people obey the rules as they are for their own safety.”


----------



## geogregor

Two short videos I shot this summer and forgot about it. GWR services passing Slough station. The line speed here is 125 mph, which is roughly 200 km/h:


----------



## geogregor

Class 197 started revenue service in Wales:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592070009207279616


----------



## NCT

Let's hope WM's introduction of 196s and 730s kicks up a gear ...


----------



## geogregor

Weekend at work 

Southeastern Railway 2 x 4-carriage sets of class 465 heading from Victoria to Orpington:

20221112_141502 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221112_141624 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And from Orpington to Victoria

20221112_141806 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

They look good on sunny day but those trains are over 30 years old, have internal layout not particularly well suited for suburban trains, don't have A/C and are not well maintained (due to wider issues with Southeastern franchise).

Luckily government (which now own the franchise) announced tender for new trains, to be delivered in 2027:






Supply of and Maintenance Support for new Rolling Stock for Southeastern - Find a Tender







www.find-tender.service.gov.uk







> The overall objective of this procurement is cost reduction and cost avoidance, through securing the best medium and long-term value fleet solution for the benefit of taxpayers, the Department for Transport, Southeastern and ultimately, Southeastern's customers. We believe that this objective can be secured by procuring new trains to replace a significant quantity of Southeastern's ageing fleet and therefore avoiding the escalating maintenance, repair and leasing costs
> 
> To meet this objective, the new fleet must be manufactured and introduced into full, unrestricted operational service by October 2027
> 
> The quantity of vehicles in the core order will be between 350 and 570, with an option for up to 70 additional vehicles (these quantities have been calculated using an assumed 20m vehicle length). The precise number in the core order will be determined once tenders for supply, financing and maintenance have been received and the business case for new trains is completed. The business case will inform and determine which fleet or fleets are to be replaced and therefore will establish the final quantity for the core order
> 
> In addition, follow-on options may be sought, to allow the fleet to be increased over time, depending on recovery of demand post pandemic
> 
> Bidders will be required to propose a design based on an established platform, and demonstrate the ability to deliver on-time, obtain acceptance and introduce fleets into service in the UK, evidenced by previous procurements
> 
> The key requirements of the new vehicles will include (but not be limited to):
> 
> Full compatibility with Southeastern infrastructure (excluding High Speed 1 infrastructure)
> Full compliance with all applicable accessibility regulations (PRM NTSN)
> Interiors suitable for metro & mainline operation
> Toilets
> Air conditioning
> Inclusion of options for traction batteries with capability for operation in depots and sidings without the need for external power supply, and with the capability to operate on the main line where power supply is not available due to isolations or incidents, or for non-electrified line sections of up to 20 miles


At that stage Networkers will have over 35 years under the belt, of heavy suburban working in London. About time to be replaced.


----------



## Robert198812345

Over here in the east Midlands, just waiting for the 170s to displace the torrid 156s. Feel sorry for northern. Look after the 196s as EMR will get them in 20 years time lol.


----------



## geogregor

Good article about mess which British rail franchises became in recent years, concentrating mostly on Avanti West Coast:









Avanti train staff so demoralised by rail chaos they're refusing to wear the uniform


The crisis-hit operator of the West Coast Main Line faces the axe if it does not deliver improvements. But on the East Coast, publicly owned LNER has been steaming ahead. i explores how Avanti came off the rails




inews.co.uk





Interesting comparison w LNER:



> However, you only have to look east, to the other rail artery linking London with Edinburgh and Glasgow, to see that not all train operators have suffered equally.
> 
> Latest official figures for LNER, the main operator on the East Coast Main Line, show that more than two thirds of its trains arrived on time compared to less than half of Avanti services. Meanwhile, Avanti’s train cancellation rate is four times higher, and its complaints have soared by 122 per cent.












And some other bits:



> This week *i *has spoken to those with close knowledge of the under-fire operator, who claim that* poor management and rock bottom morale are at the heart of the problems, with some staff refusing to wear a “clown’s outfit” Avanti uniform that they think makes them a target for an angry public.*
> 
> Experts say the mess passengers are experiencing is also the result of difficulties in replacing an aging workforce and a topsy-turvy post Covid rail regime that gives privately owned train companies like Avanti much less freedom than a state-owned operator.





> However, the negative reputation it has attracted in recent months due to poor performance has fed a vicious circle where staff are increasingly taking abuse from frustrated passengers, further damaging morale, according to Mr Lindsay.
> 
> “Even the Avanti uniform, people don’t like its cheapness. One person said, ‘It’s like a clown’s outfit with a target on the back,'” said Mr Lindsay.
> 
> “We’ve still got staff who refuse to wear it and wear the old Virgin uniform instead with the logo cut off.”





> Unfavourable comparisons have also been made with Avanti’s West Coast predecessor Virgin Trains. The Richard Branson-fronted operator aimed to restore glamour to a line that once saw famous steam trains like the Coronation Scot whisking passengers up North, and its workers welcomed the Virgin vision.
> 
> “Virgin bought goodwill time and time again,” Kevin Lindsay, regional organiser for Scotland for Aslef, the train drivers’ union, told* i*.
> 
> “It was a really unusual rail company, it was aspirational, people wanted to work for them. Staff were in tears when they lost the franchise. Avanti under First Group has been much more confrontational, it’s lost its focus.”





> Without warning, the train operator said it had no choice but to bring in an “emergency timetable” and slash services. Then-managing director Phil Whittingham provoked fury by publicly accusing drivers of taking “unofficial strike action”.
> 
> It was a major miscalculation, hardening the union stance, and strikes by both Aslef, the RMT and TSSA have continued ever since. Mr Whittingham stepped down from his job in September.
> 
> Mr Lindsay, has been among those negotiating with Avanti. He told *i* the West Coast mainline had suffered more than any other because of the company’s “confrontational” attitude which has “killed the beating heart” of staff morale.
> 
> “There’s been a breakdown in relationships locally and nationally,” he said. “Avanti stopped talking to the union and started dictating, they started asking people to do extra and extra and extra. People don’t want to work for a company that doesn’t value you.


This is astonishing:



> And rail experts say that post Covid, with the franchising system broken and private operators essentially working for a management fee, *it is actually the state-owned operators of last resort that have more scope for setting their own course*.
> 
> Phil Sherratt, editor of Modern Railways magazine, said: *“LNER has had more freedom to get on and do stuff, whereas it’s quite tight in the private sector.*
> 
> “It’s even down to things like, when an operator needs to order a new part, because that’s above a certain level of expenditure they have to go to the Department for Transport for permission. It’s that level of control.


What a fricking mess we got ourselves in...


----------



## Robert198812345

In January the new TFW class 231 should enter service. Though will be moved to other routes once the 756s enter service in December 2023. This is to allow the 170s to cascade to EMR.

Once the class 197s enter service on more routes, then the 158s and 175s should be cascaded to replace ageing stock elsewhere. GWR castle sets maybe have been mentioned a few times.

Also I think the end of the class 150 will happen soon. Including the ones at TFW, GWR and Northern. The oldest DMUs in passenger service.


----------



## M-NL

geogregor said:


> What a fricking mess we got ourselves in...


Yet in continental Europe there are still plenty of politicians thinking privatising railways is a good idea. We shouldn't forget that most of those 'private' railway companies are just another countries state railway under a different name.


----------



## AlbertJP

Coincidentally, I took the Avanti to Manchester and back this weekend. Today, there was a strike in the afternoon with no northbound Avanti trains past ~4pm out of Euston, southbound stopping earlier.

The 12:15 from Piccadilly to Euston (via Crewe and Birmingham) was "heavily loaded, so the driver was not able to move it". I didn't quite understand the point here, as I thought a train would be able to move if the platform/train staff could get the doors shut. Anyway, passengers bound for Birmingham were requested to use CrossCountry instead which ran a quarter of an hour later. A few passengers got off and we departed with +4.

The strike later that afternoon was announced in the train, warning people who wanted go get back from London to take the train back on time. The announcer sounded quite condescending towards the RMT, so I guess the guard/driver who did this announcement either doesn't like unions (I've seen that attitude before in Britain, there is less respect for strikes than on the continent) or is member of a competing one.


----------



## Robert198812345

I took a journey between Sheffield and Huddersfield today, very nice line with good views of the emley moor transmitters. Yes there are 2 at the moment. Would like to get off and walk round one or two of the intermittent stops. Only downfall is the awful 150s.


----------



## Robert198812345

The GWR HST castle sets will be withdrawn by December 2023. Not sure what their replacement might be. Though I'd assume TFW 158s or 175s as those units currently have no future but have a few good years left in them. Also as GWR currently use 158s then not as much driver training would be needed.

I also assume the scotrail HST sets don't have much longer in service as they are not part of their future plans regarding electrification and rolling stock.


----------



## geogregor

Latest passenger numbers released by ORR:






London Waterloo is top of the stops again, but overall numbers are down on pre-pandemic levels | Office of Rail and Road


London Waterloo regained its status as the most used railway station although its total number of passenger entries and exits is less than half of the number from two years ago (April 2019 to March 2020).




www.orr.gov.uk






London Waterloo 41,426,042
London Victoria 36,776,338
London Bridge 33,309,348
London Liverpool Street 32,165,310
Stratford (London) 28,182,238
London Paddington 23,870,510
London Euston 23,097,606
Birmingham New Street 22,682,526
London Kings Cross 20,476,492
Manchester Piccadilly 19,581,442




> The numbers are revealed in the Office of Rail and Road’s (ORR) estimates of station usage statistics for the year April 2021 to March 2022, which include the annual total of passenger entries and exits at each of the 2,570 stations in Britain.
> 
> After a 16-year reign, London Waterloo was knocked off the top by Stratford (London) last year (April 2020 to March 2021), but it finds itself back in pole position following 41.4 million passenger entries and exits in the latest year (April 2021 and March 2022). However, that total is some way short of the estimate of 86.9 million from two years ago.
> 
> London Victoria retained its position as the second most used station with 36.8 million entries and exits, while London Bridge stayed in third spot with 33.3 million. Stratford (London) dropped down to fifth with 28.2 million, although that is more than double last year’s estimate.
> 
> There are eight stations that serve the capital in the top 10, and are joined by Birmingham New Street which remained in eighth place (22.7 million) and Manchester Piccadilly, which moved up from last year’s 18th to this year’s 10th (19.6 million).





> Highbury and Islington, Clapham Junction, Barking, and East Croydon, located outside London Fare Zone 1, dropped out of the top 10.
> 
> In the latest year, there were 24 stations in Great Britain with more than 10 million entries and exits. This is compared to just five stations the previous year and 43 stations two years ago.
> 
> In Scotland, Glasgow Central remained the most used station with 15.3 million entries and exits, up from 5.3 million last year, but down from 32.5 million two years ago.
> 
> Edinburgh was the second most used station with 13.6 million entries and exits and Glasgow Queen Street was the third most used station (8.5 million).
> 
> Across Wales, Cardiff Central remained the busiest station in the latest year with 7.5 million entries and exits, up from 2 million last year, but down from 12.7 million two years ago.
> 
> Newport was second (1.8 million) and Swansea moved up from fourth to third, with 1.5 million.
> 
> Elton and Orston in Nottinghamshire was the least used open station in the latest year, with 40 recorded entries and exits. It had the second lowest usage two years ago (April 2019 to March 2020) when it had 68 entries and exits.


It is worth remembering that those figures cover last winter, with widespread Covid restrictions. As such they don't really represent current passenger numebers.


----------



## geogregor

Degradation of British railways continues...









Train cancellations in Great Britain hit highest level on record


One in 26 journeys disrupted with government accused of ‘abject failure’ to tackle worst offenders such as Avanti West Coast




www.theguardian.com







> Analysis of ORR figures by the Guardian shows that 187,000 trains were fully cancelled and 127,000 partly cancelled in the year to 15 October, the equivalent of 860 a day. *The figures exclude trains cancelled because of strike action.
> 
> This works out as 3.8% of planned services – meaning one in 26 rail journeys was disrupted or cancelled last year – the highest proportion since records began in 2014-15.*
> 
> This is up from 2.9% in the year to October 2019 and 3.1% over the same period in 2018. The number of cancellations fell sharply in 2020 and early 2021 because of the Covid-19 lockdown.





> Commuters in the north of England are bearing the brunt of the chaos. Avanti West Coast, which operates services between London, Manchester and Glasgow, was the worst offender with one in every 13 (7.7%) of its planned services cancelled.
> 
> *Three-quarters of those cancellations (76%) were because of train faults or other problems falling under Avanti’s remit, rather than infrastructure issues which are the responsibility of Network Rail*. That was more than any other train operating company in the country.


WTF?


> In the three months to mid-October, Avanti had cancelled 1,440 trains, resulting in packed services at other times.
> 
> Train operators are paid a fixed fee by taxpayers to run services after the ending of franchising in May 2021. I*n addition, they are contractually entitled to a “performance fee” for exceeding minimum service standards. Avanti is understood to be eligible for a performance fee of more than £1m despite abandoning so many journeys.*


How can they be entitled to a "performance fee"? Something is seriously wrong here...



> The second worst-performing rail operator was Govia Thameslink Railway, which cancelled 6.4% of planned trains over the last year, according to the ORR data. TransPennine Express cancelled 5.3% over the same period, rising to 5.8% in the latest 12-week period covered by the data.
> 
> The high level of cancellations comes despite several large train operators running reduced timetables.
> 
> Avanti – named for the Italian word meaning forward – has gone backwards when it comes to scheduling trains. In the 12 weeks to 15 October, the company was planning to run only 60% of the trains that it did during the same period in 2019 – the largest reduction of any operating company. Of those trains, one in 10 were cancelled.
> 
> Other operators running reduced timetables include TransPennine Express and Northern Trains (both running at 69% of 2019 levels), CrossCountry (74%), and Chiltern Railways (75%).


----------



## Ashtonian

From the busiest to the not so ...... 








The deserted Welsh railway station with just one passenger a week


It is the most geographically remote station on the Heart of Wales Line




www.walesonline.co.uk


----------



## Robert198812345

Staying on topic of the heart of Wales line, the December timetable change has it having about 6 trains a day Monday to Saturday. A vast improvement on a well used line.

I would be able to consider days out to multiple places on that line also without worrying too much about waiting around for 4 or more hours.


----------



## Ashtonian

The UK train that shouldn't exist

About the Settle and Carlisle Line.


----------



## geogregor




----------



## Robert198812345

Just for speculation.

The 350/2s could go to scotrail to replace the 318s and 320s.

TFW 175s could replace the 158s at EMR.

TFW 150s and 158s could all go to northern to replace the worse looking 150s and also the 155s could get withdrawn.

Class 221 and 222s from AWC and EMR should all go to XC to provide 50% more seats on most services. Then they can withdraw all their 170s and give them to EMR. Also withdrawing the HST sets from XC.

Electrification in Scotland will free up 170s, 156s and 158s that could all go to northern, GWR and SWR if required for temporary measure.

LNER will withdraw the 225 sets but not sure when that would happen.

In order to completely withdraw the 150s I think more electrification is needed, plus re jigging of rolling stock is required.

Anyone else have their own speculation of future rolling stock.


----------



## geogregor

Scenic route north, worth seating on the right to see the coast:


----------



## tgk300

Robert198812345 said:


> Once 50% of the UK rail network is electrified then I'll be happy.
> 
> Any news on opening dates for Brent cross west, Dalcross and reading Green park.


Looks like you will never be happy then as I assume you mean total mileage?


----------



## tgk300

Robert198812345 said:


> Just for speculation.
> 
> The 350/2s could go to scotrail to replace the 318s and 320s.
> 
> TFW 175s could replace the 158s at EMR.
> 
> TFW 150s and 158s could all go to northern to replace the worse looking 150s and also the 155s could get withdrawn.
> 
> Class 221 and 222s from AWC and EMR should all go to XC to provide 50% more seats on most services. Then they can withdraw all their 170s and give them to EMR. Also withdrawing the HST sets from XC.
> 
> Electrification in Scotland will free up 170s, 156s and 158s that could all go to northern, GWR and SWR if required for temporary measure.
> 
> LNER will withdraw the 225 sets but not sure when that would happen.
> 
> In order to completely withdraw the 150s I think more electrification is needed, plus re jigging of rolling stock is required.
> 
> Anyone else have their own speculation of future rolling stock.


GWR ideally need new stock to replace their ageing diesel fleet in the Bristol area as well as in Devon and Cornwall. Ideally and order of new DMU's would be made in the next 2 years for introduction within the next 5. There is no point in ordering bi-modes as Devon and Cornwall will never be electrified. 

SWR could do with some 750v DC/diesel bi-modes with the provisions for OHLE capability as well ie. a pantograph area as well. This would eliminate diesel in Waterloo and allow them to run on third rail until Worting junction and then continue on diesel to Exeter.


----------



## bifhihher

tgk300 said:


> Looks like you will never be happy then as I assume you mean total mileage?


Is 50% too high a number to wish for?


----------



## tgk300

bifhihher said:


> Is 50% too high a number to wish for?


I would say that it is because we don't really seem to be making moves towards it. In March 2020 38% of the UK's network was electrified so to meet your goal you need 12% which doesn't sound a lot but that's a bloody long way with a lot of money needed also.

Personally, I don't support electrification and would rather see investment in new trains (diesel down here in the South-West but bi-mode where the capability can be taken advantage off), track upgrades such as re-openings and re-doubling certain sections etc. as well as enchancing stations that feel a bit run down and are struggling for capacity. I don't think investing in OHLE is wise and would prefer money to be spent else where at the tips of the network rather than the cores in and out of London and other cities. Even small things like new shelters at Cornish branch stations and nicer waiting rooms for locals stations would be better in my opinion. We just need to accept that OHLE is not viable in this country for most of the network.


----------



## Stuu

bifhihher said:


> Is 50% too high a number to wish for?


70% of passenger kms are on electric trains right now. Lots of the network isn't electrified, but that isn't where most demand is.

At the moment there are around 400 kms of route due to be electrified in the next five years, which will increase the percentage of journeys a lot more than the percentage of the network, as it is mainly commuter routes that are being electrified. Of course lot of route miles will probably only ever see battery trains rather than full electrification


----------



## Robert198812345

Would you accept the DMUs from TFW in Devon and Cornwall? I think the 197s are the last diesel only trains the government will order so they can meet zero emissions targets. Battery technology or electrification are your possible future prospects.

Surely once the current electrification works are complete, MML, Scotland rolling program etc, that would get it over 40% electrification in the UK. Plus Northern Ireland need to do something soon to meet government targets. Does the R.O.I. have electrification proposals? Yes I know it's not the UK but be interested if the enterprise service could be electric soon.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> 70% of passenger kms are on electric trains right now. Lots of the network isn't electrified, but that isn't where most demand is.
> 
> At the moment there are around 400 kms of route due to be electrified in the next five years, which will increase the percentage of journeys a lot more than the percentage of the network, as it is mainly commuter routes that are being electrified. Of course lot of route miles will probably only ever see battery trains rather than full electrification


It's such a tragic waste of money though, I genuinely cannot see the benefit versus spending the money else where.


----------



## tgk300

Robert198812345 said:


> Would you accept the DMUs from TFW in Devon and Cornwall? I think the 197s are the last diesel only trains the government will order so they can meet zero emissions targets. Battery technology or electrification are your possible future prospects.
> 
> Surely once the current electrification works are complete, MML, Scotland rolling program etc, that would get it over 40% electrification in the UK. Plus Northern Ireland need to do something soon to meet government targets. Does the R.O.I. have electrification proposals? Yes I know it's not the UK but be interested if the enterprise service could be electric soon.


Accept what, the Class 197's? If that's what you mean then yes we would. If not then I don't know because none of their DMU fleets are big enough for an outright replacement of the D&C based fleet. 

You assume that those projects will actually happen though as they could be cancelled at any moment due to the current economic situation.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> It's such a tragic waste of money though, I genuinely cannot see the benefit versus spending the money else where.


It isn't, it saves money very quickly, as electric trains cost ~30% less to operate and are much more reliable than diesel trains. And that ignores the environmental aspects


----------



## Robert198812345

tgk300 said:


> Accept what, the Class 197's? If that's what you mean then yes we would. If not then I don't know because none of their DMU fleets are big enough for an outright replacement of the D&C based fleet.
> 
> You assume that those projects will actually happen though as they could be cancelled at any moment due to the current economic situation.


No I meant the 150s, 150s and 158s from TFW.


----------



## tgk300

Robert198812345 said:


> No I meant the 150s, 150s and 158s from TFW.


Probably not the 150's as although they will add capacity they are just as old as our current fleet. The 158's are better trains over all so yes, I would accept them even if they are still a little old.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> It isn't, it saves money very quickly, as electric trains cost ~30% less to operate and are much more reliable than diesel trains. And that ignores the environmental aspects


It is not worth the initial investment when there are other communties in dire need of a better railway.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> It is not worth the initial investment when there are other communties in dire need of a better railway.


What criteria are you using to come to that conclusion?


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> What criteria are you using to come to that conclusion?


The fact that in reality the cities are fairly well covered, they have decent services which are usually pretty decent with nice stations etc. Leave the city and you have stations with no roofs in the wind and rain, 40 year old trains stopping at stations that are two short for the train length leading to trains that are crush loaded as well as little to no infrastructure improvements for decades. 

So maybe not all trains are electric, but at least there are trains there to begin with as a lot of people have nothing. Stop thinking about London and the big cities, there are other people.


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> Leave the city and you have stations with no roofs in the wind and rain, 40 year old trains stopping at stations that are two short for the train length leading to trains that are crush loaded as well as little to no infrastructure improvements for decades.


Sounds like huge parts of south London if you ask me... 

Have you seen some of the stations here? I work at some which are basically falling apart. In some other European countries they would be rebuild ages ago.

As for electrification, it is one of the better investments we can do. Those trains are cheaper to run, more reliable, greener etc. Electrification also goes hand in hand with improvements to signaling etc. It is not coincidence that the best railway networks (Switzerland, Netherlands) are almost completely electrified.



> So maybe not all trains are electric, but at least there are trains there to begin with as a lot of people have nothing. Stop thinking about London and the big cities, there are other people.


Britain, and especially England, has pretty decent coverage by the railway lines. Trains are not the best to serve small isolated settlements and rural areas. I really don't get the obsessions with reopening of some rural lines, where one or two carriages might run once per hour (at best), when main railway lines need complex reconstructions to resemble anything modern. The fact that in 2022 one can't get electric train all the way from London to Sheffield is a joke.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> So maybe not all trains are electric, but at least there are trains there to begin with as a lot of people have nothing. Stop thinking about London and the big cities, there are other people.


I live in Somerset, I'm not thinking about London or other cities. Very, very few towns of any significance don't have a train service, or easy access to one

When there are limited funds available (which there always will be), then a balance of getting the best return on the money and ensuring nowhere is left to rot has to be made. Electric trains are cheaper to run, therefore the upfront investment means there will be more money available to run the rest of the network


----------



## tgk300

geogregor said:


> Sounds like huge parts of south London if you ask me...
> Have you seen some of the stations here? I work at some which are basically falling apart. In some other European countries they would be rebuild ages ago.
> As for electrification, it is one of the better investments we can do. Those trains are cheaper to run, more reliable, greener etc. Electrification also goes hand in hand with improvements to signaling etc. It is not coincidence that the best railway networks (Switzerland, Netherlands) are almost completely electrified.
> Britain, and especially England, has pretty decent coverage by the railway lines. Trains are not the best to serve small isolated settlements and rural areas. I really don't get the obsessions with reopening of some rural lines, where one or two carriages might rune once per hour (at best), when main railway lines need complex reconstructions to resemble anything modern. The fact that in 2022 one can't get electric train all the way from London to Sheffield is a joke.


How can you compare south London to the rest of the network? You guys are creaming it.

Electrification is definitely not one of the best we can do. Replacing older DMU's with newer ones, upgrading stations, adding loops/sidings where they are needed are all far better uses of the money.


Stuu said:


> I live in Somerset, I'm not thinking about London or other cities. Very, very few towns of any significance don't have a train service, or easy access to one
> 
> When there are limited funds available (which there always will be), then a balance of getting the best return on the money and ensuring nowhere is left to rot has to be made. Electric trains are cheaper to run, therefore the upfront investment means there will be more money available to run the rest of the network


Correct, there are limited funds so why waste it on OHLE? Thing is though, the balance never works. GWML was done but Devon and Cornwall still have 150's, excellent balance...

Shouldn't have done GWML and should have ordered new DMU's to replace HST's and the local fleets. Could have fixed flooding issues in Somerset, sorted Dawlish, re-built an overcrowded Exeter St Davids etc. Could have sorted the lot but now, the Londoners and their mates in Reading got the bloody lot.

If they hadn't of done some OHLE projects then there would be money to replace Castle HST's instead of just short forming services...


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> How can you compare south London to the rest of the network?


I'm not comparing it to anything. I'm saying that south London network is crap. It has ancient infrastructure, inaccessible stations, bad frequencies. It is nowhere near where it should be considering population density, size of the city, GDP created in London etc. Average European would laugh at statement that south London network is good or sufficient.

It simply isn't fit for purpose



> Electrification is definitely not one of the best we can do. Replacing older DMU's with newer ones, upgrading stations, adding loops/sidings where they are needed are all far better uses of the money.


Replacing old DMUs with new ones is a total waste of money in 2022/2023. With exception of some really peripheral regions (Cornwall and Devon comes to mind) or some really quiet rural lines. Electrification should be part of any serious modernization in most of England.



> Correct, there are limited funds so why waste it on OHLE? Thing is though, the balance never works.


What balance doesn't work?



> Shouldn't have done GWML and should have ordered new DMU's to replace HST's and the local fleets.


Sorry but you are deluded. Electrification of GWML was long overdue. In fact they should get on with it and finish the route to Bristol via Bath, do the bit to Oxford etc.

I don't know if you are some diesel aficionado but idea of investing in new DMUs instead of electrification is truly bonkers.


----------



## Robert198812345

Travelling from east to west takes all day practically. Especially travelling from shrewsbury, Chester and Hereford to Lincoln, Skegness and Norwich. For example. Crowded regional sprinter trains. Unless you go to London on a longer train.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Electrification is definitely not one of the best we can do. Replacing older DMU's with newer ones, upgrading stations, adding loops/sidings where they are needed are all far better uses of the money.
> 
> Correct, there are limited funds so why waste it on OHLE? Thing is though, the balance never works. GWML was done but Devon and Cornwall still have 150's, excellent balance...


Yes it is. It just is. It is by far the best investment that can be made in busy railways, because it reduces the cost of every single train run by 30%+ percent, for the rest of time.

DMUs need to be removed ASAP, and electrification is the only sensible answer for any line with more than 2tph.

Devon and Cornwall have brand new intercity trains though, don't they? Exeter is about to get it's second new station in the last decade, which is pretty good for a city of it's size. So it's nonsense to claim there is no investment.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Yes it is. It just is. It is by far the best investment that can be made in busy railways, because it reduces the cost of every single train run by 30%+ percent, for the rest of time.
> 
> DMUs need to be removed ASAP, and electrification is the only sensible answer for any line with more than 2tph.
> 
> Devon and Cornwall have brand new intercity trains though, don't they? Exeter is about to get it's second new station in the last decade, which is pretty good for a city of it's size. So it's nonsense to claim there is no investment.


Why on earth do DMU's need to be gone? Totally pointless. 

There is no investment where it counts. Stations are great but with no passing loops or stuff like that it's pointless. I stand by my point, no investment in the southwest.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Why on earth do DMU's need to be gone? Totally pointless.
> 
> There is no investment where it counts. Stations are great but with no passing loops or stuff like that it's pointless. I stand by my point, no investment in the southwest.


Because they do. Because the rest of the system is going to be decarbonised and needs to for the future of the planet. It's quite well known

Fairly sure that a ludicrous sum was spent reconnecting a village to the national network in the past year. It's not that long ago that the Axminster loop was put in, at significant expense, to allow more services. What passing loops have been proposed but not financed?


----------



## Robert198812345

The new Inverness airport station will have two platform where there was only single line working before.


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Because they do. Because the rest of the system is going to be decarbonised and needs to for the future of the planet. It's quite well known
> 
> Fairly sure that a ludicrous sum was spent reconnecting a village to the national network in the past year. It's not that long ago that the Axminster loop was put in, at significant expense, to allow more services. What passing loops have been proposed but not financed?


Removing DMU’s won’t make a difference to our plant, none at all. It also won’t happen thankfully. You cannot beat diesel for railways.

Whimple passing loop was proposed but not funded, diverting behind Dawlish wasn’t done and neither has the redoubling of the Exmouth Branch to Topsham.


----------



## NCT

tgk300 said:


> Removing DMU’s won’t make a difference to our plant, none at all. It also won’t happen thankfully. *You cannot beat diesel for railways.*


U wot m8?


----------



## geogregor

NCT said:


> U wot m8?


He must be trolling...


----------



## tgk300

NCT said:


> U wot m8?





geogregor said:


> He must be trolling...


Sorry, I missed a bit off the end because I was busy. Was meant to say you cannot beat diesel for railway _down here._

I meant down in Devon and Cornwall.


----------



## Robert198812345

I hate diesel trains. I only travel electric or class 800 on diesel mode LNER. The problem is too many people moan about modern trains and insist on keeping 40year old stock in service. Sprinters, HSTs and 313s have had their day.


----------



## tgk300

Robert198812345 said:


> I hate diesel trains. I only travel electric or class 800 on diesel mode LNER. The problem is too many people moan about modern trains and insist on keeping 40year old stock in service. Sprinters, HSTs and 313s have had their day.


I love diesel trains. 

That is because the 40 year old stock is comfortable and pleasant to travel on. Take 158's and HST's as an example or even loco hauled mk2's.


----------



## NCT

Unless Devon and Cornwall have different laws of physics, electric trains will still be far better (electrify the Cornish Main Line then run the branches with battery trains).


----------



## tgk300

NCT said:


> Unless Devon and Cornwall have different laws of physics, electric trains will still be far better (electrify the Cornish Main Line then run the branches with battery trains).


You're paying yeah? 

Never going to happen and rightfully so. They won't be far better. Fit a DMU with enough hp and it's fantastic.


----------



## gincan

geogregor said:


> Britain, and especially England, has pretty decent coverage by the railway lines. Trains are not the best to serve small isolated settlements and rural areas. I really don't get the obsessions with reopening of some rural lines, where one or two carriages might run once per hour (at best), when main railway lines need complex reconstructions to resemble anything modern. The fact that in 2022 one can't get electric train all the way from London to Sheffield is a joke.


One thing is coverage, but is it practical? Many routes are slow, like 1800s slow, Sheffield to Manchester is almost 1 hour for a trip less than 40 miles. And if you live in Grimsby or Blackburn, going almost anywhere is a nightmare and takes forever, and if you live in Bradford, sucks to be you, go to Leeds.


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> I love diesel trains.
> 
> That is because the 40 year old stock is comfortable and pleasant to travel on. Take 158's and HST's as an example or even loco hauled mk2's.


That has nothing to do with what they are powered by though, and electric trains have the added benefit of not having to put up with a rattly diesel engine chugging away all the time.


----------



## Robert198812345

tgk300 said:


> I love diesel trains.
> 
> That is because the 40 year old stock is comfortable and pleasant to travel on. Take 158's and HST's as an example or even loco hauled mk2's.


Sprinters are uncomfortable to ride on and they smell. The need to rev them up so high to move them is unnecessary.

Northern seem to use them between Sheffield and Lincoln on Sundays, crowded on a awful 150 with no space to move. 2+3 seating. Where are the CAF 195s on Sundays?

The worse thing about the railways is the regional services. For example Shrewsbury to Lincoln, change at Birmingham New Street and then change at Nottingham. All on crowded trains and bad connections.

Why do EMR consistently put on a 2 carriage at 20:30ish service Saturday night Nottingham to Lincoln? Also Nottingham to Grantham at similar time. Knowing these services are busy. There must be spare carriages at that time. Hopefully EMR will sort out their shambles and run a proper railway once the 170s have all come across.


----------



## bifhihher

tgk300 said:


> I love diesel trains.
> 
> That is because the 40 year old stock is comfortable and pleasant to travel on. Take 158's and HST's as an example or even loco hauled mk2's.


Yeah tgk300, now you make me doubt your claim that 50% is not a good wish.
I understand money can only be spend once, and small lines don't necessarily need electrification everywhere, but as said before, if there's one train/h you really get modern and cheaper trains.
Some stopgaps are being investigated, like battery + OHL at stations, but for lines with heavy traffic you can't continue in Diesel, as that is too expensive, both in fuel costs as in maintenance of the trains. It's also dirty and when I went back from the UK to the mainland I was poisoned in the station (Kings Cross) by waiting diesel trains. Please don't troll bud


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> That has nothing to do with what they are powered by though, and electric trains have the added benefit of not having to put up with a rattly diesel engine chugging away all the time.


Diesel is genuinely a blessing, it's so simple. Deliver it to the depot, put in the tank and then away you go. No infrastructure, bridge works etc. and no 'OHLE failure' excuses. It can go anywhere at any time with no hassle. As for them 'chugging away', they don't. Diesel's are so smooth this day and age.

OHLE on the other hand, insane outlay.


Robert198812345 said:


> Sprinters are uncomfortable to ride on and they smell. The need to rev them up so high to move them is unnecessary.
> 
> Northern seem to use them between Sheffield and Lincoln on Sundays, crowded on a awful 150 with no space to move. 2+3 seating. Where are the CAF 195s on Sundays?
> 
> The worse thing about the railways is the regional services. For example Shrewsbury to Lincoln, change at Birmingham New Street and then change at Nottingham. All on crowded trains and bad connections.
> 
> Why do EMR consistently put on a 2 carriage at 20:30ish service Saturday night Nottingham to Lincoln? Also Nottingham to Grantham at similar time. Knowing these services are busy. There must be spare carriages at that time. Hopefully EMR will sort out their shambles and run a proper railway once the 170s have all come across.


I was talking about 158's and 159's both of which are amazing regional stock. What does it matter if they are revved?


bifhihher said:


> Yeah tgk300, now you make me doubt your claim that 50% is not a good wish.
> I understand money can only be spend once, and small lines don't necessarily need electrification everywhere, but as said before, if there's one train/h you really get modern and cheaper trains.
> Some stopgaps are being investigated, like battery + OHL at stations, but for lines with heavy traffic you can't continue in Diesel, as that is too expensive, both in fuel costs as in maintenance of the trains. It's also dirty and when I went back from the UK to the mainland I was poisoned in the station (Kings Cross) by waiting diesel trains. Please don't troll bud


50% is not going to happen for decades if ever. The Government can barely scrape together the cash for new station at Torquay let alone installing OHLE at every terminus station on all branchlines to charge battery trains which they will also have to buy. Barnstaple for example, 6 minute layover. How can you be sure the electrical infrastructure will cope with that kind of draw charging 4 cars? There are so many 'what if's' and requirements for it.

I love how you assume that because someone disagree's with your opinion that they are trolling. There are plenty of good reasons to be against electrification mate. Are differing opinions not allowed?


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Diesel is genuinely a blessing, it's so simple. Deliver it to the depot, put in the tank and then away you go. No infrastructure, bridge works etc. and no 'OHLE failure' excuses. It can go anywhere at any time with no hassle. As for them 'chugging away', they don't. Diesel's are so smooth this day and age.


No, they are absolutely hassle. The average mileage for a class 150 between technical incidents which cause a delay is 9,000. The comparable age class 455 manage 29,000, that is three times more reliable. The most reliable modern DMU is the Class 185, which manages 22,000 miles between incidents, so still not as reliable as a 40 year old EMU. The most reliable modern EMU (Class 387) goes on average 173000 miles between incidents. That is around 8 times more reliable. That's how much better electric trains are, they are much simpler, they don't break down anything like as much and they don't need as much maintenance either. It's no accident that the oldest working trains in the country are EMUs

Of course there is an upfront, high cost to electrification, but it is a one-off cost. It is not impossible to imagine that the next significant electrification after the MML would be Birmingham-Exeter, possible even by the end of the decade


----------



## tgk300

Stuu said:


> No, they are absolutely hassle. The average mileage for a class 150 between technical incidents which cause a delay is 9,000. The comparable age class 455 manage 29,000, that is three times more reliable. The most reliable modern DMU is the Class 185, which manages 22,000 miles between incidents, so still not as reliable as a 40 year old EMU. The most reliable modern EMU (Class 387) goes on average 173000 miles between incidents. That is around 8 times more reliable. That's how much better electric trains are, they are much simpler, they don't break down anything like as much and they don't need as much maintenance either. It's no accident that the oldest working trains in the country are EMUs
> 
> Of course there is an upfront, high cost to electrification, but it is a one-off cost. It is not impossible to imagine that the next significant electrification after the MML would be Birmingham-Exeter, possible even by the end of the decade


Reliability isn't everything and is the be all and end all. Yes it is important but that doesn't justify a massive investment in several hundred miles of OHLE (needed to remove diesel from D&C) to remove a minimul amount of emissions and save a bit of money. 

Diesel is here to stay in Devon for the next few decades. As for Birmingham to Exeter, they didn't even do Bristol mate 😀


----------



## bifhihher

tgk300 said:


> Diesel is genuinely a blessing, it's so simple. Deliver it to the depot, put in the tank and then away you go. No infrastructure, bridge works etc. and no 'OHLE failure' excuses. It can go anywhere at any time with no hassle. As for them 'chugging away', they don't. Diesel's are so smooth this day and age.
> 
> OHLE on the other hand, insane outlay.
> 
> I was talking about 158's and 159's both of which are amazing regional stock. What does it matter if they are revved?
> 
> 50% is not going to happen for decades if ever. The Government can barely scrape together the cash for new station at Torquay let alone installing OHLE at every terminus station on all branchlines to charge battery trains which they will also have to buy. Barnstaple for example, 6 minute layover. How can you be sure the electrical infrastructure will cope with that kind of draw charging 4 cars? There are so many 'what if's' and requirements for it.
> 
> I love how you assume that because someone disagree's with your opinion that they are trolling. There are plenty of good reasons to be against electrification mate. Are differing opinions not allowed?


Let's say we both want more people in trains. A way to get there is with more modern rolling stock and higher frequencies. As you're replacing your RS, why not go for electric?
As the frequency has been upped, and probably the sleepers and rails too in the process, why not go the small extra mile by installing the OHL?


----------



## tgk300

bifhihher said:


> Let's say we both want more people in trains. A way to get there is with more modern rolling stock and higher frequencies. As you're replacing your RS, why not go for electric?
> As the frequency has been upped, and probably the sleepers and rails too in the process, why not go the small extra mile by installing the OHL?


Let me coutner that, why go for electric? Why not just by new trains with 100mph capability and 500hp per coach (using the standard MTU powerpacks) and call it a day? Modern, comfortable and fast. You've also saved several hundred million that we don't have to spend.

OHLE isn't the 'small extra mile', it's most of the money and most of the hassle...


----------



## bifhihher

tgk300 said:


> Let me coutner that, why go for electric? Why not just by new trains with 100mph capability and 500hp per coach (using the standard MTU powerpacks) and call it a day? Modern, comfortable and fast. You've also saved several hundred million that we don't have to spend.
> 
> OHLE isn't the 'small extra mile', it's most of the money and most of the hassle...


So just new RS when all stays same or new RS with invest in signalling & frequency?

Edit: and true, OHL is expensive as all the "extras" need to be paid, overpasses and bridges. That gets in the hundreds of millions. I thought there were some technical solutions to that (like lower the pantograph and have a gap at the bridge...)


----------



## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Reliability isn't everything and is the be all and end all. Yes it is important but that doesn't justify a massive investment in several hundred miles of OHLE (needed to remove diesel from D&C) to remove a minimul amount of emissions and save a bit of money.
> 
> Diesel is here to stay in Devon for the next few decades. As for Birmingham to Exeter, they didn't even do Bristol mate 😀


Benefit-cost ratios for electrification are extremely high, so yes it does make sense. The MML electrification has a BCR of over 5, which means for each pound spent you get five back. Nothing else comes close to that return on investment


----------



## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> I love diesel trains.


Now I understand your posts. 

But unfortunately for your love, diesel trains don't have much future. As many others wrote, they are less reliable, more expensive to maintain and run, noisy, dirty etc. There are no logical arguments to keep them running longer than absolutely necessary.



tgk300 said:


> Sorry, I missed a bit off the end because I was busy. Was meant to say you cannot beat diesel for railway _down here._
> 
> I meant down in Devon and Cornwall.


They might have future on some remote branches, until battery or hydrogen technology advances. But everything with even moderate traffic should be electrified ASAP. And it eventually will, even British politicians can avoid economic and technological logic only up to a point...

Meanwhile, Xmas vibes:

20221221_134032 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1390909 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221221_133824 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221221_134137 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221221_134227 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221221_134344 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221221_134847 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20221221_134907 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

BTW, you must be aware that there are people who love steam trains, at lest they have enough sense not to advocate their continued use on mainline services


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## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Benefit-cost ratios for electrification are extremely high, so yes it does make sense. The MML electrification has a BCR of over 5, which means for each pound spent you get five back. Nothing else comes close to that return on investment


For the MML specfically that maybe the case but for a lot of routes it most certainly isn't.


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## tgk300

geogregor said:


> Now I understand your posts.
> 
> But unfortunately for your love, diesel trains don't have much future. As many others wrote, they are less reliable, more expensive to maintain and run, noisy, dirty etc. There are no logical arguments to keep them running longer than absolutely necessary.


They do have a future, I can guarantee their usage for at least a decade on long distance services in Devon and Cornwall and probably at least 15 years on locals. That's IF the Government gets moving with installing OHLE (which they won't). 

How can you say no logical arguments? That maybe your opinion but unfortunately that doesn't make it fact. Simple, efficient and proven are 3 for a start. Add in minimul infrastructure and suddenly that have a brilliant case. 


geogregor said:


> They might have future on some remote branches, until battery or hydrogen technology advances. But everything with even moderate traffic should be electrified ASAP. And it eventually will, even British politicians can avoid economic and technological logic only up to a point...


Hydrogen technology will not happen, it just won't. Moderate traffic routes will not be electrficed anytime soon, be real mate. British politicians will do their best to avoid spending money on OHLE as long as possible. If they actually cared Bristol would be done, as would all other large cities but they aren't so that should tell you how they feel.


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## geogregor

tgk300 said:


> They do have a future, I can guarantee their usage for at least a decade on long distance services in Devon and Cornwall


Oh, here I agree. Financing and planning alone will take ages as planning and investment decision-making system in Britain is completely dysfunctional. Eventually I would expect electrification as far as Exeter first. Further west it will be complicated due to Dawlish section. 



> Simple, efficient and *proven* are 3 for a start. Add in minimul infrastructure and suddenly that have a brilliant case.


Just because some technology has good legacy doesn't mean it is good going forward. Steam trains were once brilliant and proven technology, yet we got rid of them (apart from heritage). And not many people cry for them (again, apart from some heritage anoraks).



> Hydrogen technology will not happen, it just won't. Moderate traffic routes will not be electrficed anytime soon, be real mate.


We'll see, I'm a bit skeptical myself. I would say it is 50/50 whether in the long term the low use branch lines will go hydrogen or battery. But they won't stay diesel into late 2030s. And because of that there won't be much appetite to investing in new "pure" DMUs. They will need at least passive provision for change of traction.



> British politicians will do their best to avoid spending money on OHLE as long as possible. If they actually cared Bristol would be done, as would all other large cities but they aren't so that should tell you how they feel.


Again, here I agree. But stupidity of British politicians doesn't make diesel trains better technologically. Yes, we might be stuck with them due to political stupidity. But it doesn't make them in any sense better than electric trains.


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## AlbertJP

What we see in other countries (e.g. Germany) is a mix of electrification, battery trains (with electrification "islands"), and hydrogen is being planned to replace diesel. That's probably also what the UK will get at some point. All three technologies are already in the country, although hydrogen has so far only been used for demonstration purposes.

Which one is getting implemented on a specific line depends on the BCRs of the relevant technologies - hydrogen is better for a low train frequency, electrification for a high train frequency, battery fits in-between - and on the whims of local politicians, if there are multiple options with a BCR above 1.


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## Robert198812345

100% electric trains and lines in the UK won't solve the climate crisis, but will do it's bit.

Just saying as I walk along the street I'm not smelling as much fumes with more electric cars on the road.

Cross country voyagers should not be sat with the engine on at Birmingham New Street as sometimes the fumes get too much, poor ventilation maybe.


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## tgk300

geogregor said:


> Oh, here I agree. Financing and planning alone will take ages as planning and investment decision-making system in Britain is completely dysfunctional. Eventually I would expect electrification as far as Exeter first. Further west it will be complicated due to Dawlish section.


Agreed, Exeter will be the first destination south of Bristol although I wouldn’t be surprised if they made Taunton the next Newbury and just ended it there like they did with the GWML. 


geogregor said:


> Just because some technology has good legacy doesn't mean it is good going forward. Steam trains were once brilliant and proven technology, yet we got rid of them (apart from heritage). And not many people cry for them (again, apart from some heritage anoraks).


You cannot compare moving from diesel to steam to diesel to electric.

The former change has less staff less infrastructure but the latter change has more infrastructure.


geogregor said:


> We'll see, I'm a bit skeptical myself. I would say it is 50/50 whether in the long term the low use branch lines will go hydrogen or battery. But they won't stay diesel into late 2030s. And because of that there won't be much appetite to investing in new "pure" DMUs. They will need at least passive provision for change of traction.


It will be battery had hydrogen is a pain to store and transport. It’s fundamentally not viable to run a railway on hydrogen.

When GWR replace their local DMU fleet it will be it will be new DMU’s to enter service in 2028. No one is interested in investing in the tech, look at the Chiltern Class 165 project and the 769’s.


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## tgk300

Robert198812345 said:


> Just saying as I walk along the street I'm not smelling as much fumes with more electric cars on the road.


Smell less fumes? 😂 You can’t even smell them mate. I can’t smell the fumes behind a 5.0 V8 Jaguar. 


Robert198812345 said:


> Cross country voyagers should not be sat with the engine on at Birmingham New Street as sometimes the fumes get too much, poor ventilation maybe.


Why? It’s easier to just leave them on then risk them not starting.


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## bifhihher

tgk300 said:


> Why? It’s easier to just leave them on then risk them not starting.


Wait, are you saying the technology you champion isn't reliable?


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## NCT

The fumes, noise and vibration from diesel engines at railway stations are horrible.


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## Robert198812345

You suggest that cross country voyagers are unreliable to start. Maybe they could not spend as long clogging up a platform at new street and maybe doing a similar timed wait at a station in the open. What waiting time is adequate until the engine should be shut off?


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## tgk300

bifhihher said:


> Wait, are you saying the technology you champion isn't reliable?


No, when did I say that? I said that they are left on rather than RISK them not starting. Two very different things lad. 


NCT said:


> The fumes, noise and vibration from diesel engines at railway stations are horrible.


You have got to be joking? Genuinely have to be joking? The noise is minimul in my opinion and smell is just a smell, it's not a bad one at all. Lovely sound when the driver bangs it wide open out of station. 


Robert198812345 said:


> You suggest that cross country voyagers are unreliable to start. Maybe they could not spend as long clogging up a platform at new street and maybe doing a similar timed wait at a station in the open. What waiting time is adequate until the engine should be shut off?


I did not suggest that in the slightest. They play is safe, what's wrong with that? You can't just stop on the mainline and 'wait'. They stop in a station because trains can pass them on other lines so they don't cause a blockage


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## NCT

tgk300 said:


> You have got to be joking? Genuinely have to be joking? The noise is minimul in my opinion and smell is just a smell, it's not a bad one at all. *Lovely sound when the driver bangs it wide open out of station.*


You've got issues.


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## tgk300

NCT said:


> You've got issues.


Why, How? Sounds good.


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## Robert198812345

tgk300 said:


> No, when did I say that? I said that they are left on rather than RISK them not starting. Two very different things lad.
> 
> You have got to be joking? Genuinely have to be joking? The noise is minimul in my opinion and smell is just a smell, it's not a bad one at all. Lovely sound when the driver bangs it wide open out of station.
> 
> I did not suggest that in the slightest. They play is safe, what's wrong with that? You can't just stop on the mainline and 'wait'. They stop in a station because trains can pass them on other lines so they don't cause a blockage


No I mean like stop at derby for a length of time instead of New Street for example. As it's more in the open, the fumes not as bad.


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## bifhihher

tgk300 said:


> No, when did I say that? I said that they are left on rather than RISK them not starting. Two very different things lad.


reliable | rɪˈlʌɪəbl | adjective consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted: a reliable source of information.
It can't be trusted to start when I want it to, so...?


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## tgk300

Robert198812345 said:


> No I mean like stop at derby for a length of time instead of New Street for example. As it's more in the open, the fumes not as bad.


Never thought about it to be honest, I am sure it's possible but maybe there are capacity issues at Derby?


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## tgk300

bifhihher said:


> reliable | rɪˈlʌɪəbl | adjective consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted: a reliable source of information.
> It can't be trusted to start when I want it to, so...?


I didn't say it can't be trusted did I? Voyagers are actually very reliable units as are most DMU's, look at SWR 159's.


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## AndreiB

It’s not just smell. Plenty of particle pollution too.


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## tgk300

AndreiB said:


> It’s not just smell. Plenty of particle pollution too.


But does it really bother you? It's not that big of a deal to me.


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## AndreiB

Yes, the noise, smell, pollution and inefficiency of diesel trains bothers me. I wish the UK was like Switzerland - 100% electrified.


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## tgk300

AndreiB said:


> Yes, the noise, smell, pollution and inefficiency of diesel trains bothers me. I wish the UK was like Switzerland - 100% electrified.


Wow, unbelievable. It's not bad at all. The noise is nice for some of them, pollution is meh. As for the Swiss, no ta. I just don't get the anti diesel people.


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## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Wow, unbelievable. It's not bad at all. The noise is nice for some of them, pollution is meh. As for the Swiss, no ta. I just don't get the anti diesel people.


Diesel stink, they are terrible for the local and wider environment, they are far less reliable than electric trains, and cost far more to operate. These are facts, backed by actual data which you ignore.

Anyone who says "pollution is meh" is an idiot. What that means is "I don't care about my own health, the health of my fellow citizens, or the wider planet" Not a good look


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## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Diesel stink, they are terrible for the local and wider environment, they are far less reliable than electric trains, and cost far more to operate. These are facts, backed by actual data which you ignore.
> 
> Anyone who says "pollution is meh" is an idiot. What that means is "I don't care about my own health, the health of my fellow citizens, or the wider planet" Not a good look


They don't stink at all, and they really aren't that bad. Removing diesels from say Devon wouldn't make a blind bit if differance to anything. Facts are they? Well whether or not it stinks is down to the individual and the pollution is down to how much you care. They maybe _more _relaible but it doesn't really matter as modern DMU's are very reliable as well. Cost far more to operate? They save hundreds of millions if not over a billion in infrastructure... If electric trains are so cheap why did Freightliner hang up the keys to the electric locos in favour of 66's? 

Pollution is meh, it just is. I couldn't care less to be honest, it's not something I worry about. That doesn't make me an idiot, that makes me an idividual with a differing opinion to your own or is that not allowed as I know what environMENTALists can be like... I have my left wing friends banging on about EV's etc. and I about to by a 5.0 V8 Jag, I am not interested. 

As a rail enthusiast I like my steam and diesel and thankfully where I live the former is a regular on the weekends and the latter is a 24/7 job


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## Stuu

tgk300 said:


> Pollution is meh, it just is. I couldn't care less to be honest, it's not something I worry about. That doesn't make me an idiot, that makes me an idividual with a differing opinion to your own or is that not allowed as I know what environMENTALists can be like... I have my left wing friends banging on about EV's etc. and I about to by a 5.0 V8 Jag, I am not interested.


Where does politics come into whether or not particulates kill thousands of people? You are entitled to an opinion, but there are some facts which can't be avoided. Just like you are entitled to believe that there is no such thing as gravity, but if you jump out of a window you will still fall, regardless of what you believe.


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## Robert198812345

Yes unfortunately rail enthusiasts are preventing train operating companies from buying new trains. Still stuck with 40 year old trains on our lines. Azumas are 10 times better than a steam train because they don't rely on getting coal and water every 5 seconds.

I knew vivarail was a bad idea. Was taking ages to get anything in service this leading to no income and going into administration. Why do they habe to be repaired by vivarail mechanics and not just any depot?


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## tgk300

Stuu said:


> Where does politics come into whether or not particulates kill thousands of people? You are entitled to an opinion, but there are some facts which can't be avoided. Just like you are entitled to believe that there is no such thing as gravity, but if you jump out of a window you will still fall, regardless of what you believe.


The do kill people but not on the scale you're suggesting and definitely not from diesel trains. 


Robert198812345 said:


> Yes unfortunately rail enthusiasts are preventing train operating companies from buying new trains. Still stuck with 40 year old trains on our lines. Azumas are 10 times better than a steam train because they don't rely on getting coal and water every 5 seconds.
> 
> I knew vivarail was a bad idea. Was taking ages to get anything in service this leading to no income and going into administration. Why do they habe to be repaired by vivarail mechanics and not just any depot?


Steam locos built the country, they did their bit. What I would prefer is a Class 50 or HST with mk3's which is the UK best ever passenger vehicle. The Azumas (and GWR 800's as well) are a massive step backwards in terms of comfort. 

I did smile when I saw Vivarail head down the pan. It was as obvious as the sun rising tomorrow from the moment they started the project.


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