# BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - "Humboldt-Forum" | U/C



## Chadoh25

How much of the original will be included in the rebuilt Schloss?


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## erbse

What do you refer to? Fragments of the facade?


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## Chadoh25

erbse said:


> What do you refer to? Fragments of the facade?


Yes, like in the Potsdamer Scholss. I saw parts which were saved from the original structure which are now being incorperated into the new building.


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## cameronpaul

Can't wait for the building work to start on this most important project. The rebuilding of the old Royal Palace will add a new dimension to the centre of Berlin and once again will be an imortant focal point of the city.


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## Varoš1

One thing interests me,not about Stadtschloss,are there any plans to rebuild some buildings of old town of Berlin behind the Stadtschloss?I mean on the lawn where is park now.
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8775/fm1188064a.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1204/berlindomschloss.jpg

If some buildings would be rebuilt,Nikolaiviertel could be connected with new buildings and we would have big part of old town.Better buildings than park,right?


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## GFM 3D

That is the Marx-Engels-Forum. I wish they rebuilt the Stadtschloss surroundings, but I actually don't expect it to happen.

View of Eosanderhof and Portal III, c. 1906









(source)


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## socrates#1fan

Ulpia-Serdica said:


>


uke:

Looks like some nightmarish prison.


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## GFM 3D

socrates#1fan said:


> uke:
> 
> Looks like some nightmarish prison.


Indeed. I think that's what will replace Schloßhof I.


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## El_Greco

Looks pretty good to me.


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## ThatOneGuy

Not the best, but not the worst interior, either.


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## Suburbanist

Late reconstructions are always tricky. It is impossible to please everyone. Assuming a political decision to reconstruct something is made, there is always a balance between the kitsch, the overzealous detailing (especially on buildings/sites that saw many additions/transformations over the centuries) and the caricature-of-bygone-era. 

Personally, I like the modern wall, except for the transition to the adjoining old façade. The interiors look fine as well. That is assuming the decision to reconstruct had already been made, otherwise they could just have built a giant reunification monument and left the rest of the area as an open plaza forming a continuum with other open spaces out there.


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## erbse

^ Those open spaces won't be there anymore in the decade to come. It was the historical core of Berlin, where the city emerges. The empty vastness there is highly unpleasant and unurban and should vanish asap. There's enough parks and great free spaces in Berlin, the current "Marx-Engels-Forum" ain't one of them.


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## goschio

I hate this pseudo reconstruction. It should be either fully historical or a spectacular modern building.


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## nr23Derek

goschio said:


> I hate this pseudo reconstruction. It should be either fully historical or a spectacular modern building.


Sorry to say I agree. It is a shame the old palace was lost - it could and should have been restored, but it's long gone now.

Why is it we don't seem to be able to build anything new in a sympathetic style? Instead we have to resort to a pastiche re-creation, even though the new building is to have none of the function of the original. Doing that isn't the sign of a healthy living city in my view.

Modern creations don't have to be brutal or aloof from their surroundings, the fact that they usually are is down to bad design, bad planning.

Regards the park, usually I would argue against the loss of an amenity like that, but int he case of this one it really doesn't serve much of a function, it's just a gap everyone has to walk through. As has been said, it should be the centre of Berlin, a place where everything happens, instead it's a windswept wasteland.


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## Ingwaeone

Regarding the interior one has to consider that it was one of the most splendid even imaginable. Its authentic restoration would double, perhaps even triple the costs.


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## erbse

^ Indeed. And they'll leave that option for later generations to come.

That modern part actually is an addition that doesn't replace any historical interiors.


What I'm way more worried about is the river facade. It's just an ugly blunder and has to be redone or scrapped. I'm thinking about an initiative to call for a proper solution.


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## cloud32

^^ That modern side needs to be delt with, agreed. I normally 100% support anything modern but that is just horrible. To me the design looks too square and cold and doesn't go far enough to contrast the 'old' part of the design. What is needed is either nothing there at all or an 'open', mostly glazed design which uses materials that aren't assosiated with the origional building (e.g. glass and metal).


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## UnHavrais

I'm agree withe erbse and cloud32 ! 
These two contemporary parts do not deserve a lPalace and Germany! It is of a commonplace !


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## Suburbanist

What saddens me is that a reasonable number of people appear to have been totally hooked in the past, in the sense of not believing anything contemporary can be created and only "historically faithful recreations" have place in European cities. 

The modern addition is a nice twist in the building, especially considering it doesn't freaking exist at the moment after being razed not for a couple year for for 5 whole decades.

In the past, all sorts of additions, appendages, re-dos were done in many of Berlin's buildings that later became iconic. I don't see how this should be an exception, especially given it is a reconstruction from greenfield.


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## erbse

Former styles all amended each other well. Even baroque often looked good on Gothic structures, classicism worked well with renaissance and later historicist additions.

That was what the Berlin City Palace was made of. All the different time layers showing the history of the city.

*Modernism essentially broke with all aesthetic rules of former eras* - that's what it was all about. *It just doesn't work well with older styles*. It never intended to. But that's what's annoying in such a to-be harmonious urban environment of unique proportions.

I agree with a reconstruction like this there's room for a modern time layer to show up. But it should a) *not replace all former time layers as it does on the river facade* (which were the oldest btw) and b) *shouldn't aesthetically break with the rest of the building - but it does*. It's not amending it, it's contradicting it. That's different compared to the Reichstag building for instance, where they've gone for very well amending modern additions.


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## UrbanMyth

*Left Over Space in Mitte*

I think that as the city continues to grow and the reurbanization of Mitte continues apace, the open space between the Stadtschloss and Alexanderplatz will also "fill-in". I hope, at least... 

While parks are great additions to an urban core...see Paris, London, Manhattan, Boston, even the Tiergarten in west Berlin, etc., this space in Mitte feels more like "left-over" space created by the DDR because it fit into an ideological context not an urban one. 

Anyway, I hope the city works with private developers in the future to create a plan for a dynamic reconstruction of this "left-over" space and, yes, reserve space for the incorporation of a meaningful urban park that is itself part of a historic center city.


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## Ulpia-Serdica

yourrulez said:


> Und zum Schluss noch ein Bild auf dem man gut die Ausmaße erkennen kann und auch die gewaltige Anzahl an Kränen über der Stadt:


...


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## erbse

Yeah, thanks for pulling this back to the top, we're finnally getting into the exciting phase! kay:


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## erbse

Btw, there were other design concepts for the River Spree facade / East facade of the Stadtschloss.

I for one was rooting for an open castle courtyard. Would be a wonderful venue for the city!

*Stephan Braunfels Architekten* interestingly shares my vision.

While I don't like their plans for the Marienviertel (to-be-rebuilt old town quarter across the river in front of the City Hall) - I really like the open cour d'honneur.

http://www.braunfels-architekten.de/en/competitions/chronological/2008/stadtschloss-berlin/
















































































Source all: http://www.braunfels-architekten.de/en/competitions/chronological/2008/stadtschloss-berlin/


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## erbse

*I added loads of (mostly) current renderings to the first post of this thread here, to show you at first sight how the Berliner Stadtschloss will probably look like! *


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## erbse

A model of the castle before WW2 (inside the *Humboldtbox* - information center at the site of the castle):









_by user PhilippK_


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## erbse

The *Humboldtbox* itself - temporary information center about the Humboldt-Forum / Castle reconstruction project in Berlin-Mitte:









Source









Source


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## erbse

Inside Humboldtbox:








Source & Source & Source

Humboldtbox at night:








http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Humboldt_Boy_by_Night.jpg


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## erbse

Slideshow of the Berlin City Palace:


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## erbse

For those who are in love with the _European Classic Architecture Forum_ just as I am:

I created a reference thread for your overview there. 

*BERLIN City Palace (Stadtschloss) - Reconstruction as 'Humboldt-Forum' - References*


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## GFM 3D

Pachelbel's canon fits perfectly to the subject of that video, it's beautiful.

Regarding architect Braunfels' design, I have to say that it doesn't include the east side of the Schlüterhof, something that Stella's project does. But by now, it seems to be the only decent alternative, as it would allow a late reconstruction of the east wing, which btw was the oldest part of the palace.

The sad thing is that, it seems, they won't be rebuilding the Schlosshof I.

_(is there any approved project to rebuild the Marienviertel?)_


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## Ulpia-Serdica

Great presentation erbse :cheers:


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## keepthepast

In the model for the Marienviertel, are the two rows of new buildings extending from the river to the broadcast tower intended to look as indicated, or are the "brown blocks" simply place-holders at this time? What a perfect opportunity to integrate the newly constructed palace and old rathaus with a classic promenade that leads up to the modern Alexander platz.


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## TimothyR

quomodo said:


> It didn't receive any more damage than the rest of Berlin.
> 
> You can see the damage to the east façade compared to the Marienviertel on the right of these comparison pictures originally posted on the Architectura Pro Homine:
> Before the War:
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> After:
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> The main reason for the subsequent demolition by the communist East Germany (Pictures) was it's status as a symbol for an unwanted (and failed) system (the monarchy) right in the centre of it's new and modern (communist) capital.
> 
> Ironically the demolition of the palace of the republic (picture in a better state, and another one from the east) on this very spot had pretty much the exact same reasons. It was a symbol of the communist past of East Germany in the centre of the new All-German capital.
> (The official reason was it's asbestos contamination, but almost every building from the 70ies has this problem. One of the more prominent examples is the ICC-Building, opened 1979 in the former west of Berlin, and nobody is going to demolish that one.)




Very sad. hno:

I didn't know so much of the outer structure of the palace had survived the war. :shocked:


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## TimothyR

erbse said:


> The *Berlin City Palace* (_Berliner *Stadtschloss*_ in German) will be (partly) reconstructed.
> 
> Its site marked the historical core of the German capital, being the root for the city's development.
> After considerable damage in World War 2, it still could have been rebuilt - but the GDR government of East Berlin
> decided to blow it up in 1950. This act of crime was followed by a huge parade ground for the GDR authorities -
> and in 1976, the Palace of the Republic (_Palast der Republik_)
> was built on its site. In 2008, the demolition of this historical hoax was finally finished.
> 
> You can comprehend the whole process until today at this thread.
> 
> Since reunification in 1990, there were various initiatives coming up for the reconstruction of the Berlin Castle.
> In 2002, the German parliament (_Bundestag_) made the decision to partly rebuild the Palace complex
> as the new *Humboldt-Forum*.
> This concept is intended as a combination of a museum and a venue for events. The museum will show non-European
> exhibits & art, as a counterpart to the Museum Island, which represents European history.
> So altogether, this part of Berlin will establish a prominent place of world culture.
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> Current visualizations/renderings of the Berlin Palace / Humboldt-Forum (as of March 2013):
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> _Aerial_
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> http://www.welt.de/kultur/article7879733/Wiederaufbau-des-Berliner-Stadtschlosses-gefaehrdet.html
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> _From "Lustgarten" seen from the front of the Altes Museum_
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> _Sadly the Spree river facade (east facade) will probably be spoilt by a boxy modernist appendix (architect: Franco Stella)... _
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> Source of all: http://www.golden-section-graphics.com/berliner-stadtschloss/




Oh, this is superb - so much more extensive and grand and ambitious than I had expected. :cheers::applause:


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## HenriGermain

I don't like the reconstruction plan at all, the new rationalist parts fit only in the floor plan and the building itself to be honest isn't anything worth regretting for. But yeah, history, nation blah blah so thumbs up for Germans and your new... erm, shopping mall?

That being said, there were more proposals for the site and I am having trouble finding them. If anyone would be so kind to help me out it would be highly appreciated(subject maybe covered in other threads?).
The Hans Kollhoff's plan interests me the most and this is all I found about it by now:








:drool:

So yeah please give it a little research, especially if you are German :cheers2:


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## Slartibartfas

^^ This won't be a shopping mall nor will it look like one. I really don't like the modern side of the palace and I think it looks terrible but I really am riddled by your comment here.


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## GFM 3D

erbse said:


> A model of the castle before WW2 (inside the *Humboldtbox* - information center at the site of the castle):
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> _by user PhilippK_


It's depressing. You can see the beauty of old Berlin compared to the rendering to the right.


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi

p.s.:

Here the Webcam:

http://www.cityscope.de/bss/

More pics and updates in the german-Thread for the project.


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## erbse

^ Great, thanks Ludi! 

Btw: *The foundation stone ceremony is scheduled for the 12th of June 2013!* kay:

Berlin Stadtschloss coming along! Finally!


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## erbse

*Stadtschloss von oben*

Berlin City Palace construction site seen from above (Cathedral/Dom):


TowerVerre:) said:


> Wir waren heute am Berliner Dom und von da oben hat man natürlich eine perfekten Ausblick auf die Baustelle.
> 
> humbold schloss by BigCityLover, on Flickr


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## Ludi

nice!


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## Ludi

The first cement trucks are there!

Its going on. :cheers:





































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Simfan34

Glad to see this moving!


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## Ludi

In june there will be the first stone laying!

Here some impression of the "Förderverein(friends' association) Berliner Stadtschloss".

I cant wait for this prospect!






































source and ©: Förderverein Berliner Stadtschloss


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## Ludi

Source and ©: Förderverein Berliner Stadtschloss


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## Tiaren

So gorgeous!  With the palace reconstructed, Berlin's historical heart (Unter den Linden, Museumsinsel, Schinkelplatz and Schlossplatz) will finally again be able to compete with the other grand Capitals of Europe.


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## Cager

It's a start at least - a big one - i hope there will be some more reconstruction projects in the future! Would love to see Castle Monbijou rise again!


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## erbse

_Berlin City Palace_ construction site seen from river Spree in May:


yourrulez said:


> Wieder überwältigend das Kränemeer - Da fällt mir wieder die chinesische Boomstadt ein


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## erbse

Cutting through the Humboldt-Forum:








_Quelle und ©: sbs-humboldtforum_


You'll always find updates first in our *DWF construction thread for Berlin's City Palace*.


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## Judge Roy Beam

stallion__ said:


> This is a pure, masculine, ugly, but worthy frontage
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> But its masculinity is sapped by history, cuz it's commonly known that what is old is rather worse. So to support this row of tenement houses' masculinity at its height we should consider some masculine behaviour, relations, principles in the past better than nowadays. So guys blurt it out. What the devil is the Schloss meant to be rebuilt for? I think everybody will ask me for logical counsel


Are you playing with a full deck?


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## Ludi

...



paderwan said:


>


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## nr23Derek

I have to say I'm in two minds about this. Yes, it will look nice and it will restore the grandeur and elegance of the city, which is good. But it isn't ever going to be the real thing, it will be a pastiche at best. My fear it it will just look too new and obviously a fake.

Like I say, I;m in two minds. A large bit of me says I would have preferred something new - not "modern" or "brutalist", but something that was what it really was on that space. Berlin is a creative city, surely it could have done something special here?

But hey, it will look nice. 

Derek


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## Ludi

yes, I understand what you mean, but i think its ok, that we reconstructed there the castle.

Its the "museums insel" and a modern building would look very strange on this World Cultural Heritage Island i think.

5-10 years Berlins rain, and you dont notice anymore, that it was reconstructed.^^


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## Slartibartfas

A well done reconstruction looks no more fake than a thoroughly restaurated original.


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## Loathing

This is a fantastic reconstruction project.

I only wish Warsaw had the money to carry out its own reconstructions of Palaces, and the Great Synagogue, lost in the War.


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## erbse

^ But Warsaw is reconstructing the Saxon Brühl Palace, at least, huh.


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## oli83

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/stadtschloss-berlin-bund-muss-fuer-ausbleibende-spenden-aufkommen-a-904722.html

*Stadtschloss Berlin: Millionenschwerer Fassadenschwindel*


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## Kampflamm

Meh, who cares about a couple of extra million yuros. Besides, once the construction has gotten under way people will be far more inclined to donate.


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## mindmaker87

Are they also going to construct smaller domes on the corner of main facade apart from main dome/copula because these are present in old pictures but not shown in the models?


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## thebackdoorman

Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism. 
Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc. 
From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.


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## goschio

^
agree.

Would have rather seen some futuristic museum in neo-art-deco or so.


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## Kampflamm

I don't see what's so uninnovative about it. You take an old castle and adapt it to modern needs. That's quite an innovative approach in my book. Besides, Berlin has sh*tloads of new architecture in plenty of other places. This spot right there, next to the Museum Island, the Dom, the Zeughaus, the (rebuilt) Kommandantur needs the castle as the focal point and icing on the cake.


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## Ambrosius

goschio said:


> Berlin doesn't need reconstructions just good quality architecture.


WWII and the destructions that followed in the decades after have ripped the city of almost everything of architectural value. Compared to other European capitals, Berlin is an architectural desert. 

Modernist archictects have been given free hand in developing Berlin according to their taste, and have failed miserably. Not only did they fail to give the city a new identity, they also continued the destructions of historic buildings, streets, and squares. 

For Berlin, there is no other way than historical reconstruction of at least the most important monuments and buildings, including the reestablishment of the historic street grid instead of the vast empty spaces and city highways that are essentially anti-urban in nature. 



thebackdoorman said:


> Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism.
> Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc.
> From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.


The anachronism happened from 1941-1945 with the destruction of the city, removing all traces of seven centuries of history. It is a very strange thing for a city to be built completely in bland postwar architecture - that is why reconstructions are the only possible path for Berlin to follow. 

Germany met a singular fate during WWII, with all major cities being destroyed to a degree previously unknown. Without reconstructions, many German cities would not have any identity anymore. For example, the city palaces in Munich, Stuttgart, Dresden and many, many other cities are reconstructions. They are important for the identity of people, and moreover, of high artistic quality that contemporary architects are just not capable of. 

Berlin has had its share of failed architectural experiments, the whole city is full of hideous, failed projects that ripped the city of any urban context. The modernist architects had their chance - and failed miserably. Now it is time for reconstructions.

From an economic point of view, it also makes sense. Historic buildings have a much higher quality than modernist structures. Modernist architecture is often nothing more than throw-away architecture to be replaced after some decades. Often, it is overprized due to the arrogance of star architects, and very often, it comes with severe defects that are due to the lack of a real understanding for quality and artisanry. Thus, on the long term, historic reconstructions make sense economically. Moreover, still other effects come into play, e.g. the strengthening of local identity and the increase in attractiveness for business and tourists.


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## Ludi

Kampflamm said:


> I don't see what's so uninnovative about it. You take an old castle and adapt it to modern needs. That's quite an innovative approach in my book. Besides, Berlin has sh*tloads of new architecture in plenty of other places. This spot right there, next to the Museum Island, the Dom, the Zeughaus, the (rebuilt) Kommandantur needs the castle as the focal point and icing on the cake.


... :yes:

Totally agree!



mindmaker87 said:


> Are they also going to construct smaller domes on the corner of main facade apart from main dome/copula because these are present in old pictures but not shown in the models?


Depends on the donation I think, for now its they are not planed, but there is also no problem, to put them later on the top, maybe someone donate for them the next years. 



thebackdoorman said:


> Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism.
> Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc.
> From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.


Its an normal modern construction with an museum inside!

The rest, facade, cupola, etc. will be financed by donations!

So I see no problem, the reason for an historical facade is, that we are talking about the museums insel, and next to the Dome, etc. an modern building would look strange and it wouldnt do justice to this place!

So absolutely right decision in my opinion!


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## erbse

Ambrosius:
I just couldn't agree more. There's nothing needed more in Berlin than further reconstructions - also ripped-off facades of still standing buildings in particular (infamous "Entstuckung", widely a Berlin phenomenon).

Berlin suffered way too bad from modernist idiocy. One of the results of such was the Palace's predecessor, the insanely nondescript fugly GDR "Palace" of the Republic.


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## Ambrosius

erbse said:


> Ambrosius:
> I just couldn't agree more. There's nothing needed more in Berlin than further reconstructions - also ripped-off facades of still standing buildings in particular (infamous "Entstuckung", widely a Berlin phenomenon).
> 
> Berlin suffered way too bad from modernist idiocy. One of the results of such was the Palace's predecessor, the insanely nondescript fugly GDR "Palace" of the Republic.


Thank you for your reply. I very much appreciate your many posts in both English and German in regard to the architecture of German cities. 

Unfortunately it is a fact that historical architecture is rare in Berlin. Of course, there is still much of it due to the sheer size of the city, but it is diluted in a sea of trivial modern architecture. And many historic buildings that still exist have changed to the worse over time, due to the _Entstuckung_ you mentioned, or a simplified reconstruction (as visible at the Berliner Dom vis-à-vis the Palace). As a consequence, there are many quarters in American cities (e.g. Philadelphia, Boston, NYC, Chicago...) that have more of a historic touch than central Berlin! 

I might add that I am also okay with high-quality modern architecture. However, modern architecture often just produces spectacular individual buildings, but no urban context. And even more often, modern architecture is just low quality, with no aesthetic value at all.


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## Ludi

today was the day of the open construction area, i missed it... :/

here some nice pics from Palantir.


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## Suburbanist

> Can't help but express my disappointment with this project. It looks gaudi, expensive, unnecessary, and really an anachronism.
> Particularly disappointing considering that to many people throughout the world, Berlin is advertised as a mecca of innovation, modern culture, creativity etc.
> From a cultural perspective, I expect such projects in places like Edrogan's Istanbul (the whole Ottoman palace turn into a mall) or Skopje (the whole 2014 thing), but seems particularly lame in Berlin. From an economic perspective, I also do not see much utility in this.


Restoring a building that is in bad shape is something.

Trying to bring something out of the past is fake, cheesy. It is like the madness that resulted on the fake-medieval Scholss Neuschwanstein in the Alps, for instance. 

Doing things on a kitsch manner is not necessarily a problem, Las Vegas does it all the time. The problem it try to pretend that rebuilding something that was destroyed long ago could be anything but misrepresenting history somehow. 

They should have built something new, completely futuristic, that would stick out in the middle of a green lawn. Some form-defying building. It would fit much better the "brand" that Berlin likes to put out with.


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## Autostädter

I agree that the reconstruction will restore some of Berlin's historical beauty. Still, it is sad and pathetic that we are reconstructing buildings from the past. We live in a different (better) country today, these buildings stand for something that doesn't exist anymore. It would be so much better if we could build something new, which represents what we are today but looks equally good. I hope we get back to being able to do that.


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## GFM 3D

I'd rather see this empty place between the Dom and Marstall, than ANOTHER modernist building on its location. Schloßplatz doesn't need to be another architects' playground, they already have Lepiziger Platz.



Suburbanist said:


> The problem it try to pretend that rebuilding something that was destroyed long ago can misrepresent history somehow.


Don¡t worry. I'm pretty sure the Dominikanerkloster will remain in history books only.

Most people forget that it won't be a palace anymore. While the exteriors will resemble at some point the old Stadtschloss, almost everything inside will be modern.



GFM 3D said:


> Justme said:
> 
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> (...) The new building will contain the following:
> 
> * Quality Shops (probably more at the higher end of the market, which is quite fitting for a building of this design
> * Restaurants
> * A museum
> * A Business Center
> * Rooms for corporate "special events" and functions
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> (source: welt.de)
Click to expand...




> We live in a different (better) country today, these buildings stand for something that doesn't exist anymore


Please tell me if I'm wrong, but there is no throne hall to be built, is it?


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## Ambrosius

Autostädter said:


> I agree that the reconstruction will restore some of Berlin's historical beauty. Still, it is sad and pathetic that we are reconstructing buildings from the past. We live in a different (better) country today, these buildings stand for something that doesn't exist anymore. It would be so much better if we could build something new, which represents what we are today but looks equally good. I hope we get back to being able to do that.


I agree that politically and economically, we live in much better times than when these historic buildings were erected. Aesthetically, however, the case is different - modern architecture, especially as conceived in Germany, is inferior to historic architecture. Just have a look on the nearby Bundeskanzleramt - a brutal, tasteless and hideous structure that required renovation very few years after it had been built. It is a shame that foreign dignitaries have to be received in such an oversized concrete shed. 

Architects and city planners in Germany were busy during the whole second half of the 20th century to "build something new, which represents what we are today but looks equally good", as you say - but they failed miserably. Just look at your home town of Hanover, which is a boring, hideous city that has lost its identity due to WWII destructions and the delusion of building a _modern, car-friendly_ city.


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## cilindr0

Suburbanist said:


> Restoring a building that is in bad shape is something.
> 
> Trying to bring something out of the past is fake, cheesy. It is like the madness that resulted on the fake-medieval Scholss Neuschwanstein in the Alps, for instance.



Neuschwanstein was build in 1886. 1886 was not time for castles, however is the most famous and marvelous castle in the world.


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## Suburbanist

cilindr0 said:


> Neuschwanstein was build in 1886. 1886 was not time for castles, however is the most famous and marvelous castle in the world.


I know it. And that is the point: Neuscwanstein is the father of all kitsch buildings. But at least it was a greenfield construction in the middle of alpine farmland. Something that Las Vegas took it on steroids 60 years later...



GFM 3D said:


> I'd rather see this empty place between the Dom and Marstall, than ANOTHER modernist building on its location. Schloßplatz doesn't need to be another architects' playground, they already have Lepiziger Platz.


I'm not suggesting a modernist commieblock of something that reminds us of the 1960s, but maybe a thing new. Aren't they developing some new materials (especial ultra-resistant carbon composites) that could be used to create a signature low-rise (4-5 story) there?



> Most people forget that it won't be a palace anymore. While the exteriors will resemble at some point the old Stadtschloss, almost everything inside will be modern.


Which is why such projects are " hypocritical architecture" and kitsch. This is the pure definition of something superficial, made to look on the exterior as some scene that people from Otto von Bismarck times could recognize, even if we're way past that time already and, importantly, the building had been completely destroyed by War and its aftermath (so it is not like preserving the Colosseum or other ruins either).

If the interior of the building is going to me modern, why do architects need to bury their hands in the sand and act as if the exterior should look like a representation of a gone past?

What if, for instance, they had built much bigger Humboldt box there instead?


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## Bavarian Angelshark

oh my... icard:


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## Ambrosius

Suburbanist said:


> I know it. And that is the point: Neuscwanstein is the father of all kitsch buildings. But at least it was a greenfield construction in the middle of alpine farmland. Something that Las Vegas took it on steroids 60 years later...


It was a typical expression of 19th century romanticism. Neuschwanstein was an extreme, but certainly not the only example of such feelings. The Palace of Westminster also evokes an ideal medieval past by its Gothic style. Nevertheless, I am clearly convinced that these buildings cannot be compared to contemporary Las Vegas or Disneyland buildings; they are vastly superior in artisanal quality and intellectual design. 

Authentic historic reconstructions, however, are something completely different from Neuschwanstein or the Palace of Westminster. They rely on the fact that the reconstructed buildings actually existed at these places in a well-known form for a long time and are closely linked to the culture and history of a certain city or region. The unnatural thing was that these buildings were destroyed, not that they are now being reconstructed. 



Suburbanist said:


> Which is why such projects are " hypocritical architecture" and kitsch. This is the pure definition of something superficial, made to look on the exterior as some scene that people from Otto von Bismarck times could recognize, even if we're way past that time already and, importantly, the building had been completely destroyed by War and its aftermath (so it is not like preserving the Colosseum or other ruins either).


The reconstruction as it is happening now is a compromise. For people like me, it is only an emergency solution that hopefully will be replaced by a fully authentic reconstruction. Many Germans still suffer from a guilt complex that they try to alleviate by modernist ideology. In order to show the world that Germany by rebuilding the palace does not want to reanimate Frederick's or William's policy, the architecture has to be _broken_, to be _contrasted_ by modern means. This ideological, politically correct attitude is also the reason why the Humboldt Forum is going to be the home for _non-European_ art.


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## Ludi

The "Abendschau" by the Berlin-Brandenburg-TV reports from the open day, here the video.


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## GFM 3D

> Which is why such projects are " hypocritical architecture" and kitsch. This is the pure definition of something superficial, made to look on the exterior as *some scene that people from Otto von Bismarck times could recognize, even if we're way past that time already and, importantly, the building had been completely destroyed by War and its aftermath (so it is not like preserving the Colosseum or other ruins either).*
> 
> *If the interior of the building is going to me modern, why do architects need to bury their hands in the sand and act as if the exterior should look like a representation of a gone past?*


It's interesting to see how the same arguments are used by people that oppose a full reconstruction. And it's interesting to see how you didn't reply to that comment about Hanover.

Aestethics. What they're doing is an attempt to restore at least part of the historic cityscape of Berlin-Mitte that was lost during and after WW2. 

BTW, the palace wasn't "completely destroyed" in the war. It was destroyed by the Communist years later, just like half of Mitte.



Suburbanist said:


> I'm not suggesting a modernist commieblock of something that reminds us of the 1960s.
> 
> What if, for instance, they had built much bigger Humboldt box there instead?


I know. But it's just the same. It's just like attempting to create a sound mass passage in the middle of a perfect classical sonata, or as part of a Bach fugue. It's inadmissible.


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## Autostädter

@Ambrosius: I agree with you. What I meant is that it's a shame that we can't design anything adequate. We have to copy a past generation's work.


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## Galro

Most of the building is okay, but I do not like the pastiche front towards the spree river. I wish modernists would realize that they do not longer live in the '20s with Bauhaus and did not produce these kitsch patchworks of a bygone era.


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## Ludi

Day of the open construction field:



theBluePhoenix said:


> (Bild in Originalgröße: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5a-eecc.jpg)
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> 
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5b-9872.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5c-31fe.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5d-9dcb.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5f-cfec.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5g-0aa1.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5h-58a2.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5i-bd68.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5j-a597.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5k-0336.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5l-084b.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5m-85d8.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5n-0e65.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5p-3644.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5q-757b.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5r-854d.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5s-e2c0.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5u-eae2.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5v-7eab.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5w-69ad.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-5x-091d.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-60-6f3e.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-61-eb16.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-62-1534.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-63-979d.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-64-ca46.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-65-3b8a.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-66-45fb.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-67-63dc.jpg
> http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-68-e96e.jpg ; http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/kibf-69-c0e1.jpg
> 
> Bilder von mir


© theBluePhoenix


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## erbse

Ambrosius said:


> Authentic historic reconstructions, however, are something completely different from Neuschwanstein or the Palace of Westminster. They rely on the fact that the reconstructed buildings actually existed at these places in a well-known form for a long time and are closely linked to the culture and history of a certain city or region. *The unnatural thing was that these buildings were destroyed, not that they are now being reconstructed.*


*That!*

The whole discussion is futile, as long as modernists don't reckon people's need to restore the natural (built and unbuilt) beauty of their environment. It's a strong and deep emotional desire, far from being superficial.

Germany lost so much that we could easily be busy reconstructing the next 500 years. That may not be necessary, but we definitely need more visible links to our great history (aside the WWs), tradition and culture.

*Every nation has this need.*


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## Autostädter

Ambrosius said:


> The unnatural thing was that these buildings were destroyed, not that they are now being reconstructed.


Rubbish. Buildings (and cities) have always been destroyed and new ones have been built, which were larger, more modern / grand / beautiful than the previous ones.


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## erbse

You really can't compare any of the former wars to the devastating "zero hour" of WW2 and modernist, bland and efficient rebuilding afterwards.

It was breaking with any of the former cultural and aesthetic values, disrupting a centennial continuation in aesthetic standards. That's why our cities today often feel so rootless.

Reconstruction is a valid option here. Would you have preferred a completely modernist Danzig, Warsaw, Münster, München, Rothenburg or Ypern over reconstructed old towns?

_Surely, such a statement could be considered rubbish then..._


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## Autostädter

erbse said:


> It's a strong and deep emotional desire, far from being superficial.


Two thirds of the Germans don't seem to have this desire. 

BTW: I'm not arguing for anything but just responding to your claimed "facts".


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## erbse

More than two thirds of the "Germans" also claimed that in case of the Dresdener Frauenkirche. Now look at it today and ask the people again.

Again, its mostly vague financial statements and general inconfidence about politics that leads to such results. Something along the lines "we need to renovate schools, kindergartens and autobahns instead" etc...


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## erbse

I added the most recent renderings to *my opening post here*.


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## durden5573

erbse said:


> need more visible links to our great history (aside the WWs), tradition and culture.
> 
> *Every nation has this need.*


Well said, I think its easy to dismiss the emotional connection until the project is completed. There is no shortage of empty lots in Berlin for modernist to slap their creations. 

Thanks for the continued progress pictures.


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## erbse

You're very welcome. 


Some additional visualizations...

Schlüterhof (Schlüter's courtyard), with the inner facade of the modern Spree side, a future event venue:








http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/00941/statdtschloss20_dra_941780a.jpg

aerial view:








http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01284/StadtschlossDraufs_1284077s.jpg

Groundfloor plan Humboldt-Forum:








http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/00941/statdtschloss20_eg__941783a.jpg

The modern agora, main entrance of the Castle (through Eosanderportal):








http://www.welt.de/img/kultur/origs...tatdtschloss20-agorawest-DW-Kultur-Berlin.jpg









http://www.welt.de/img/kultur/origs...atdtschloss20-2agorawest-DW-Kultur-Berlin.jpg









http://www.welt.de/img/kultur/origs...600/StadtschlossDrinnen2-DW-Kultur-Berlin.jpg

Schlüterhof, which can be used for Open Air concerts as well:








http://www.welt.de/img/kultur/origs...tatdtschloss20-schlueter-DW-Kultur-Berlin.jpg

All from: http://www.welt.de/kultur/article4980591/Franco-Stellas-ueberarbeitete-Plaene.html


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## erbse

Another historical aerial view of Berlin's Royal Castle and the
former old town just behind (Marien Quarter / Nikolai Quarter / Abbey Quarter):










Full resolution // From: AG Schlossplatz


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## Ludi

source and © Robert Grahn / euroluftbild.de


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## GFM 3D

What are they doing at Marx-Engels-Forum?


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## Ludi

U-Bahn/ subway construction.


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## bozenBDJ

Ludi said:


> source and © Robert Grahn / euroluftbild.de


Boy, that's a tight room to build from! :nuts:


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## erbse

It is indeed. 

*Btw, the above photos are part of this FANTASTIC collection (don't miss it!): THIS IS BERLIN - FROM ABOVE*

GEIL! kay:

Location of the City Palace: upper right corner, underneath the TV Tower!








_Berlin-Mitte and the Tiergarten park (Central Park of Berlin), Source: Berliner Morgenpost_


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## Malazana

Will the old Willhelm I monument be rebuilt?


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## JohnnyMass

Sadly no. ^^


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## Malazana

JohnnyMass said:


> Sadly no. ^^


If I may ask why? Are they going to build something else on that area?


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## erbse

Yes, a memorial to commemorate the Reunification of Germany in 1990.













































Source: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/mediacen...s-einheitsdenkmal-aussehen/4060638.html#image // Milla-Waltz


Perhaps we should have a seperate thread for it in English somewhere.


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## GFM 3D

Please, stop...


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## Ludi

stop what?

separate thread not necesary i think, this thread here or in the general project-threads for Berlin.

Think its ok to discuss the memorial here too.

"Kaiser-memorial" is too much I think, the "Bund"/Germany wouldnt pay for such an "Kaiser-memorial"...


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## GFM 3D

I mean, the memorial looks like a piece of a broken plate where a kid has written something. Too much for my eyes.

I'd see the empty space rather than the new memorial. It could be used instead as a place for temporary exhibitions, for example.

Going back to the topic, this picture was posted in the official priject site in Facebook.









https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150273624195480


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## stallion_

It must be reconstructed to counterbalance the fabric of the palace behind the dome.


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Darryl

erbse said:


> They should definitely reconstruct the *Imperial National Memorial* -
> and built the Unification Memorial at the Bundestag instead! kay:
> 
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> Full res: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_Nationaldenkmal_Kaiser_Wilhelm_mit_Schloss_1900.jpg
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I think the Unification Memorial would have best been suited on the vast lawn in front of the Reichstag. Seems like the perfect place for a memorial like that. Not sure why they want to put it here. 

Where are these gargantuan statues located now?? Surely the whole Imperial National Memorial wasn't destroyed in the war. Are the statues in the Historical Museum? Why aren't they displayed outdoors somewhere? Their size is quite impressive.


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## Saxonia

The monument was not destroyed during war but torn down by the communists 1949/50. All figures except for two lion groups were demolished. They can be seen in the Tierpark in Friedrichsfelde. 

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tierpark_Berlin#Kunst_auf_dem_Tierparkgel.C3.A4nde


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## Skrapebook

This is going to be so fantastic! :shocked:
Allied bombers and commies can, must, will go (and have already gone) to :devil:
GOD bless the united BERLIN and GERMANY für immer und ewig! :angel1:


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## Ludi

This time i was in the Humboldtbox.





































there was standing the old kaiser-wilhelm memorial:










my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

constructionplan which was presented in the humboldtbox...














































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

Ich frag mich, was dort in der Mitte bei den roten Stützbalken entstehen soll, ein Kellergeschoss? :dunno:

Ich weiß nicht, ob wir diese Ansichten hier schon hatten, ich glaube diese Visualisierungen sind neu:














































Source and ©: Berliner-schloss.de


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## Ludi

Source and ©: Berliner-schloss.de


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## Ludi

Hoffentlich wird der Vorplatz nicht so einfallslos wie am Reichstag. hno:










Neptun-brunnen back to old position? :dunno:










source and ©: Berliner-schloss.de


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## Ludi

source and ©: berliner-schloss.de


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## Ludi

Ostasiatische Malereien...










source and ©: berliner-schloss.de


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## Ulpia-Serdica

Ludi said:


>


Do they have any plans to re-do the facade of this building? It just looks really awful to see the historical portal surrounded by this 90s type warehouse cladding.


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## Ludi

Its an GDR building, i think this building will still there in the future too...


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## Ulpia-Serdica

That's too bad, if they could only refurbish the facade, it will fit much better. Hopefully in a few years.


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## Tiaren

sorry, doublepost!


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## Tiaren

Those cityscapes can/will rival the cityscapes of Paris, Vienna or Rome. I'm so happy for Berlin! Just beautiful! 




























Source and ©: Berliner-schloss.de


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## Spam King

Ulpia-Serdica said:


> Do they have any plans to re-do the facade of this building? It just looks really awful to see the historical portal surrounded by this 90s type warehouse cladding.


It's a modern building. The old part is actually from the palace. It's the balcony where Karl Liebknecht proclaimed the German Free Socialist Republic on the 9th of November 1918. That's why the communist assholes kept that part while destroying the rest of the building.


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## Spam King

I love the reconstruction, but I'm so disappointed in three things:

1) The ugly modern facade
2) The absolutely hideous memorial instead of a reconstruction of the old one
3) The fact it's going to be a museum of Africa and non-European art. That just doesn't fit the history and architecture of the building. I think such a museum is important to have, but not in the royal palace! This should be a museum of Prussian/German history!


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## Suburbanist

^^ I think the intention is to bring the contents of Dahlem facilities to a more central location. After all, the Ethnological Museum of Berlin is one of the best of the World.


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## Ludi

there is allready the german historical museum etc.

They special want non-european art inside there, as symbol of an free country and an place of the dialoge bethween different culture.

The modern fassade looks on some of the new visualizations terrible, i know, but i think this modern facade wouldnt be that grey.


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## M.W.

Spam King said:


> It's a modern building. The old part is actually from the palace. It's the balcony where Karl Liebknecht proclaimed the German Free Socialist Republic on the 9th of November 1918. That's why the communist assholes kept that part while destroying the rest of the building.


Seeing as that's the one and only portion of the original Königliche Schloß that's still intact, and still on location on the Museumsinsel, I think they should remove that porta from that horrible modern building and re-integrate it into the new Schloß. Otherwise, it will look bizarre -- a new Schloß with reconstructed portals, and an "extra" portal on a building just beside it.

Then, they could re-clad that modern building in a different way (or better still, get rid of it and rebuild something more traditional on its site).


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## Saxonia

M.W. said:


> Seeing as that's the one and only portion of the original Königliche Schloß that's still intact, and still on location on the Museumsinsel, I think they should remove that porta from that horrible modern building and re-integrate it into the new Schloß. Otherwise, it will look bizarre -- a new Schloß with reconstructed portals, and an "extra" portal on a building just beside it.
> 
> Then, they could re-clad that modern building in a different way (or better still, get rid of it and rebuild something more traditional on its site).


The Staatsratsgebäude isn't that bad and as one of the first prestigious modern buildings in the GDR following the "nationale Bautradition" or stalinism architecture, it is listed as a monument itself. 
Besides it won't be possible to see the old Portal IV ("Liebknecktportal") and the new one at the same time unless you are able to look through walls. Portal IV originally stood on the other side of the Schloß facing the Lustgarten and will do so again.


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## Suburbanist

There is something I didn't understand from my limited abilities of reading Germany: will the Dahlem museums on the homonym district close? Will all of its exhibitions be moved to the Humboldt Forum, including that of the Museum of Asian Art?


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## Spam King

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I think the intention is to bring the contents of Dahlem facilities to a more central location. After all, the Ethnological Museum of Berlin is one of the best of the World.


It is a great museum, but not appropriate for this building.


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## M.W.

Saxonia said:


> The Staatsratsgebäude isn't that bad and as one of the first prestigious modern buildings in the GDR following the "nationale Bautradition" or stalinism architecture, it is listed as a monument itself.
> Besides it won't be possible to see the old Portal IV ("Liebknecktportal") and the new one at the same time unless you are able to look through walls. Portal IV originally stood on the other side of the Schloß facing the Lustgarten and will do so again.


To each his own. I find the Staatsratsgebäude to be one of the ugliest buildings in Berlin, worse even than most modernist monstrosities. It's so plain and ugly, with that dull orangey color, and the portal affixed to its front, off center, looks ludicrous, like some kind of malfunction.

If they have to have modernist buildings, at least they should keep them outside the city center.


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

Here you allready can see the first courtyyard of the castle, where the machine planes the cementground and where they allready beginning to set a new cran.

this one will stand until the framing is standing:














































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## JohnnyMass

It's such a massive construction site! Can't wait to see some walls going up, except those facing the Spree of course...


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## durden5573

Really makes you appreciate the effort that went into building this without modern technology and modern materials - Wow! Vielen Dank fur das Bild!


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## zollium

Totally amazing !!! Left me speechless.Cant wait to see this awesome Schloss to be rebuilt and its one of the reasons I'm going to visit Berlin after it's fertig  This is how all nations should treat their history :cheers:


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## Ludi

End of 2013










Ende of 2014










© berliner-schloss.de / sbs-humboldtforum


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## vonbingen

Ludi said:


> End of 2013
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> Ende of 2014
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end 2014......are you shure ?
or perhaps a new scandal in coming like stuttgart rail station, elbphilarmonie and berlin airport.


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## Ludi

i am sure, you allready can see, how fast they are. Thats the "official plan".

Its not an airport, an opera, or an realwaystation with tunel, etc.

lot more easier and less parties involved.


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## M.W.

Wow. Since the reconstruction is, in fact, not so difficult, and will proceed so quickly, they _really_ could have tacked on just a few extra months and rebuilt the Spree facade properly (historically), instead of resorting to that horrible, flat, modernist, warehouse-like face.


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## ELH

I am positively surprised that it actually came to a re-building of the Schloss, after Mrs. Merkel said it could have no priority in times of economic crisis.
It constitutes a huge, single piece in the overall ressurection of historical Berlin. Still, the eastside of the Spree remains a no-go zone for those having a sentimanetal attitute to all of the city which was lost through the war.
The open mall idea behind the post-war park between the Schloss and the TV-tower is aesthetically unsuccessful and would be better replaced by a fuller reconstruction of the pre-war city east of the Spree.


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## Ludi

*webcam video*

Here the webcam video each day from TV Tower. :cheers:


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## Joe Whalen 7

*New Plan Is Adaptive Reuse*

I think that the current plan for the reconstruction of the Berliner Stadtschloss is a great example of what in construction and architecture is often called "adaptive reuse." They plan to preserve the historic exterior while using the new interior for 21st century needs. If you want to see another example of this sort of thing, look at Buda Castle (the former Royal Palace) in Budapest which now houses an art museum and the national library.

Those of you who object to the relatively modern design of the river facade should review some of the work of Albert Speer during the Nazi regime. That facade is similar to the design of the former new Reichs Chancellery building's facade that had the balcony.


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## Kampflamm

You can kind of make out the progress being made here as well.


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## M.W.

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> I think that the current plan for the reconstruction of the Berliner Stadtschloss is a great example of what in construction and architecture is often called "adaptive reuse." They plan to preserve the historic exterior while using the new interior for 21st century needs. If you want to see another example of this sort of thing, look at Buda Castle (the former Royal Palace) in Budapest which now houses an art museum and the national library.
> 
> Those of you who object to the relatively modern design of the river facade should review some of the work of Albert Speer during the Nazi regime. That facade is similar to the design of the former new Reichs Chancellery building's facade that had the balcony.


Yes, no question, but the issue is the specific nature of this particular adaptive reuse. Instead of a museum of foreign cultures, it should ideally be a museum of Prussian history. Failing that, there's been talk of moving the Old Masters gallery in Berlin out of its current location in a horrible modernist building near Potsdamer Platz. The reconstructed Königliche Schloß could have been the venue for that collection, which at least would be European.

And some of the most attractive interiors could and should have been restored.

As for the Speer building, I think it looked fine; however, I don't think it's attractive to tack that style onto the Schloß, especially since the Spree wing was formerly the most interesting and beautiful face of the palace, and the most historic.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Response to Comment*

I would have to agree that using the new "Schloss" for a museum of non-European art/culture makes little sense to me. Moving one of the other museums located in Berlin to the restored/new building would seem logical.

The Spee side of the old Stadtschloss, while interesting, to me does not lend itself to reconstruction as it seemed to be a mix of various early buildings prior to the schloss taking on the unified form of the other three sides.


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## M.W.

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> The Spee side of the old Stadtschloss, while interesting, to me does not lend itself to reconstruction as it seemed to be a mix of various early buildings prior to the schloss taking on the unified form of the other three sides.


Rather, it is that very portion of the palace that should have been reconstructed most faithfully, precisely because it collected the building styles of the various eras in which the Königliche Schloß was built.

The palace was a living symbol of Berlin, physically embodying every era of Berlin's (and Prussia's) history, from the Gothic to the Renaissance to the Baroque. The Spree facade reflected that history.

The very reason why the Schloß was so magnificent was because it wasn't merely a Baroque palace, not a structure of a single age, but an organic dwelling that grew over the centuries and showed the influence of every generation of nobility that resided there.

Furthermore, many of the most beautiful and historic interior rooms of the palace, such as the wondrous Erasmuskapelle, were housed in the Spree wing. Now they cannot be rebuilt -- or if they ever are, it will be in an inauthentic portion of the palace.


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## GFM 3D

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Those of you who object to the relatively modern design of the river facade should review some of the work of Albert Speer during the Nazi regime. *That facade is similar to the design of the former new Reichs Chancellery building's facade that had the balcony.*


You mean this?









It was designed and built by Eduard Siedler in 1930 for the republican government. The balcony and gates were added by Speer in 1935 and 1938 respectively, but the building itself wasn't Speer's work.



Joe Whalen 7 said:


> The Spee side of the old Stadtschloss, while interesting, to me does not lend itself to reconstruction as it seemed to be *a mix of various early buildings prior to the schloss* taking on the unified form of the other three sides.


The Spree wing wasn't a "mix of early buildings". It was the first part of the Schloss to be built by the Electors of Brandenburg and comprised both the Spree façade and the transverse wing (which is also not going to be rebuilt btw). The area that you consider to be the Stadtscholoss was in fact occupied by a Dominican monastery - It only became a part of the castle from the early 18th century onwards.


















Erasmuskapelle, palace chapel

http://berliner-schloss.de/das-historische-schloss/baugeschichte









http://commons.wikimedia.org


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## GFM 3D

M.W. said:


> Rather, it is that very portion of the palace that should have been reconstructed most faithfully, precisely because it collected the building styles of the various eras in which the Königliche Schloß was built.
> 
> The palace was a living symbol of Berlin, physically embodying every era of Berlin's (and Prussia's) history, from the Gothic to the Renaissance to the Baroque. The Spree facade reflected that history.
> 
> *The very reason why the Schloß was so magnificent was because it wasn't merely a Baroque palace, not a structure of a single age, but an organic dwelling that grew over the centuries and showed the influence of every generation of nobility that resided there.*
> 
> Furthermore, many of the most beautiful and historic interior rooms of the palace, such as the wondrous Erasmuskapelle, were housed in the Spree wing. Now they cannot be rebuilt -- or if they ever are, it will be in an inauthentic portion of the palace.


^This.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*The Spee wing of the Schloss*

I am an American and must say, to my knowledge, very little of the interior of the prewar Schloss has been available online. As a result, I know little about what it once looked like. Reconstruction of the Spee wing as a separate historical building museum and still have a modern building for the rest of the site would have made sense given the images seen here. Evidently, the decision was made to construct a completely modern interior and not reconstruct any of the original interiors.


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## Joe Whalen 7

The Erasmuskapelle in the Berliner Stadtschloss was very similar to the Vaclav Hall in Prague Castle. Having been in the latter, I can tell you that it is an imposing sight. It is too bad that the similar room in Berlin will not be reconstructed.


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## Saxonia

Such vaults (called Schlingrippengewölbe in german) are very typical for the late gothic style in Saxony and Bohemia. You can still find it quite often in this regions and some parts of Bavaria and Austria. In Dresden such vault has recently been reconstructed which was very complicated because it hasn't been done for about 500 years and nobody knew how to do it anymore. 

So now that the technique is conversant again it would be no problem to rebuild it if there would be the will to do so.


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## Spam King

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Those of you who object to the relatively modern design of the river facade should review some of the work of Albert Speer during the Nazi regime. That facade is similar to the design of the former new Reichs Chancellery building's facade that had the balcony.


After reviewing my book on the New Reichschanchellery building, I can't find a facade with a balcony. It was the only Reichchanchellery that had a balcony tacked onto it by Speer.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Response*

GFM has stated that I was mistaken about Albert Speer designing the balcony facade of the Reichschancellery building. His photo shows the facade to which I was referring no matter who designed it.


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## Joe Whalen 7

Does anyone know the answer to this? Prior to World War II, there was a large granite column just across the street from the Stadtschloss by the Berliner Dom that was topped with a gold eagle. I realize that this is now gone. Does anyone know what was the purpose of that monument?


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## Saxonia

Do you mean the "Adlersäule" (Eagle column)? http://www.historisches-stadtschloss.de/cms/upload/pdf/06_Adlersaeule_KV.pdf

It was errected in 1842 at the place of the old Münzturm (Coin tower). Following the antique tradition the eagle on top can be seen as a national symbol (Hoheitszeichen) of prussia.


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## Joe Whalen 7

Yes, that's the column that I was asking about. It is pictured in the photo featuring the Berliner Dom on p. 147 of the February 1937 feature article on Berlin in the National Geographic magazine but I have not seen it elsewhere. I can only assume that it was destroyed in the war. My sincere thanks for the information.


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## JohnnyMass

It was not destroyed in the war. It was dismantled by the communists after blowing up the palace. You can see it in the pdf provided by Saxonia.


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## Highcliff

may I make an off topic question?....what else are the other destroyed buildings in berlin reconstructed? is this one the first?


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Adler Saule*

Johnny:

Sorry, but that's a prewar photo of the column with the Stadtschloss in the background not a post war one. If the column survived the war and the Communists they must have done something with it.


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## Saxonia

Scroll a bit down. On page 7 of the pdf you see post war pictures with the mainly intact column and the ruins of the Stadtschloß. In the german text is written, that the column was torn down together with the Schloß. The only surviving part is the capital. They do not know where the rest is situated.





Highcliff said:


> may I make an off topic question?....what else are the other destroyed buildings in berlin reconstructed? is this one the first?


Do you mean after 1945, after 1990 or at the moment? Some newer reconstructions are the Alte Kommandantur at Unter den Linden, the Schinkelplatz behind it (the Bauakademie which is seen as an illusion there shall also be reconstructed but the funding is unclear). 

And at the moment they are reconstructing the cupola of the Staatsbibliothek Unter den Linden. (pre war)


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## Highcliff

^^^^
thank you for your answer....:drool::drool::drool::cheers::cheers2:








http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kommandantenhaus_Berlin.jpg









http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schinkelplatz


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## Joe Whalen 7

Sorry, fellows, my mistake. I did not scroll down far enough on the photo related to the Adlersaule / Eagle Column to see the rest of the posted information and more modern photos.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Denkmal*

It seems to me that if Berlin is going to all the trouble of rebuilding the Stadtschloss exterior in the original style that they would build something that reflects that architecture on the site of the old Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal. I have seen photos of the proposed modernistic sculpture currently intended for that site. Frankly, it looks like a giant debris fragment leftover from World War II. If they want something in keeping with the new/old Humboldt Forum, they ought to at least reconstruct the colonnade of the old memorial and then place something appropriate in the center that commemorates German unity.


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## noisrevid

Little picture update

That is what is left from the memorial.









That is, what we can see by now from Stadtschloss










_my pictures_


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## Highcliff

may I make an off topic comment...this reconstructed building is one of the better in germany....:cheer::cheers2::cheers::cheers2:


Xorcist said:


> Berlin, Alte Kommandatur 1795/96
> today:


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## taboe

^^ Couldn't disagree more!

It looks like it was made out of cardboard or plastic. 

It's very incomprehensible that Berlin, of all places, is opting for such a Disney-approach: faking old buildings without adding anything of architectural value. 

It's an absolute disgrace that they tore down the Palace of the Republic to replace it with this monstrosity. What's next? Tearing down the TV-tower? hno:

Berlin is very rapidly becoming just another European capital, instead of the unique one it used to be (and still is, partly). It makes my heart bleed.


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## Saxonia

taboe said:


> ^^ Couldn't disagree more!
> 
> It looks like it was made out of cardboard or plastic.


It was not. The reconstruction of the facade was done very accurate. They even used materials (sandstone, lime stone) from the same regions like the original.


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## cilindr0

taboe said:


> ^^ Couldn't disagree more!
> 
> It looks like it was made out of cardboard or plastic.
> 
> It's very incomprehensible that Berlin, of all places, is opting for such a Disney-approach: faking old buildings without adding anything of architectural value.


What the hell? It is not a fake, it is not Disney, it is a reconstruction of a building, nothing more nothing less, with the same materials.

AND IT's AWESOME!


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## fountainkopf

cilindr0 said:


> What the hell? It is not a fake, it is not Disney, it is a reconstruction of a building, nothing more nothing less, with the same materials.
> 
> AND IT's AWESOME!


I agree..I have had lunch inside that bldg. It is awesome.


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## De Klauw

taboe said:


> ^^ Couldn't disagree more!
> 
> It looks like it was made out of cardboard or plastic.


That's because it's new. The now old buildings we see today were once new as well.

It's a historically correct reconstruction. That's what matters.


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## Kampflamm

taboe said:


> Berlin is very rapidly becoming just another European capital, instead of the unique one it used to be (and still is, partly).


Yes, uniquely ugly.


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## Slartibartfas

Just being curious. Are they going to rebuild the Bauakademie during our lifetime or when is the renovation work for the printed facade scheduled? Its one of the memories of my first Berlin visit and I am not sure if we already payed in Euro back then. It would be a splendid building and that location would deserve a reconstruction.


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## Tiaren

taboe said:


> ^^ Couldn't disagree more!
> 
> It looks like it was made out of cardboard or plastic.
> 
> It's very incomprehensible that Berlin, of all places, is opting for such a Disney-approach: faking old buildings without adding anything of architectural value.
> 
> It's an absolute disgrace that they tore down the Palace of the Republic to replace it with this monstrosity. What's next? Tearing down the TV-tower? hno:
> 
> Berlin is very rapidly becoming just another European capital, instead of the unique one it used to be (and still is, partly). It makes my heart bleed.


Well, they say, that tastes differ...and that's alright!  But in some special cases there seems to be no taste existant at all.
How can you honestly call this faithful reconstruction an "absolute disgrace" and a "monstrocity", while advocating buildings like the PotR at the same time?

And with "rapidly becoming just another European capital" you do mean: beautiful, grand, historic and appropiate as the capital city of one of the worlds leading economies?


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## fountainkopf

De Klauw said:


> That's because it's new. The now old buildings we see today were once new as well.
> 
> It's a historically correct reconstruction. That's what matters.


 
Then it was the next house...where I ate. :lol:


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## taboe

De Klauw said:


> That's because it's new. The now old buildings we see today were once new as well.
> 
> *It's a historically correct reconstruction.* That's what matters.


No it's not, there weren't even plans for this building, they rebuild it based on old photos. 



Tiaren said:


> Well, they say, that tastes differ...and that's alright!  But in some special cases there seems to be no taste existant at all.
> How can you honestly call this faithful reconstruction an "absolute disgrace" and a "monstrocity", while advocating buildings like the PotR at the same time?
> 
> And with "rapidly becoming just another European capital" you do mean: beautiful, grand, historic and appropiate as the capital city of one of the worlds leading economies?


First of all, the Palace of the Republic was unique and had a beautiful and very impressive interior. Furthermore, it was a staunch reminder of a significant time for the city and would have made a great museum or concert hall.

Secondly, this project certainly is not a faithful reconstruction. It's a facade with a modern body. There is a reason buildings are build in a certain style: they represent the era in which they are build. Faking an old castle is how a five year old would build his city. I would have welcomed a grand, spectacular modern building there, which would have added something to the city, instead of this thing.

And by 'becoming just another European capital', I meant that Berlin is rapidly losing what made it unique: it's unbelievable 20th century. Yes, you've lost a lot of historic buildings, so what? That's the strength of the city: it had to reinvent itself, make the most of its scars, while never forgetting them. It made the city vibrant, creative, open and green, ugly in an interesting way. 

Now it seems to be set on becoming another Paris (which it will never be) and in the process it's losing most of what made it so special. It's not just this horrible project. It's also the mass growth of bland, snobby apartment developments in what used to be alternative neighbourhoods, the "cleaning up" of many streets, the mass tourism, etc...

Just my opinion off course


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## miglanc

Most of the 20th centrury charm in Berlin were empty spaces and ruins in centre. It was unique but unacceptable in modern metropolis. Berlin is living city, so they can't turn it into Cold War museum. A city must be comfortable to ihabitants and business friendly. That's why they build Postdamer Platz and rebuild historical palaces. Those investments doesn't make that city boring. Berlin architecture is freaky mix of old, nazi, western, socialist and modern style and that is unique and little fraeky. No other town in Europe can be compared to german capital.


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## Saxonia

taboe said:


> First of all, the Palace of the Republic was unique and had a beautiful and very impressive interior. Furthermore, it was a staunch reminder of a significant time for the city and would have made a great museum or concert hall.


And not to forget full of Asbestos.


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## Suburbanist

I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.

It is a pity that they haven't been so aggressive in removing communist-related architecture. They should have taken the same approach they took after WW2 in West Germany: any Nazi symbol, significant monument, street name/plaque was removed, and so should communist stuff from Berlin. 

If Berlin weren't in some deep financial trouble, I'd even say they should build a new (taller - 500m high) observation/TV tower, and tear down the one that currently exists there. It is also bothersome that some Soviet-era monuments remain, such as the one in Treptow Park.


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## Suburbanist

I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.

It is a pity that they haven't been so aggressive in removing communist-related architecture. They should have taken the same approach they took after WW2 in West Germany: any Nazi symbol, significant monument, street name/plaque was removed, and so should communist stuff from Berlin. 

If Berlin weren't in some deep financial trouble, I'd even say they should build a new (taller - 500m high) observation/TV tower, and tear down the one that currently exists there. It is also bothersome that some Soviet-era monuments remain, such as the one in Treptow Park.


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## GFM 3D

taboe said:


> No it's not, there weren't even plans for this building, they rebuild it based on old photos.


I invite you to go to the construction site, there is(was) a plaque displaying the old floor plan. I even used it as a reference for my 3D model. I think it was posted here before.

Anyway, there is this survey I made some time ago in my blog. Most people stated they agreed with the palace being rebuilt.


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## miglanc

Suburbanist said:


> I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.


Commies built some great monuments and skyscraper and there is no reason to demolish them. Much of Berlin was built by aggresive, authoritarian regimes. We don't need to tear down the town to show that communism was wrong.



Suburbanist said:


> any Nazi symbol, significant monument, street name/plaque was removed, and so should communist stuff from Berlin. .


Bull...t


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## Vessou

Sorry for a huge off-topic, but is there a thread, where I can find some photos from the construction site of the new U5 station near the City Palace? I'm also interested in other new U-Bahn stations under construction in Berlin.


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## Suburbanist

Vessou said:


> Sorry for a huge off-topic, but is there a thread, where I can find some photos from the construction site of the new U5 station near the City Palace? I'm also interested in other new U-Bahn stations under construction in Berlin.


Yes, the BERLIN Urban Transportation Thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=546743


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## taboe

Suburbanist said:


> I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.
> 
> It is a pity that they haven't been so aggressive in removing communist-related architecture. They should have taken the same approach they took after WW2 in West Germany: any Nazi symbol, significant monument, street name/plaque was removed, and so should communist stuff from Berlin.
> 
> If Berlin weren't in some deep financial trouble, I'd even say they should build a new (taller - 500m high) observation/TV tower, and tear down the one that currently exists there. It is also bothersome that some Soviet-era monuments remain, such as the one in Treptow Park.


:bash:

What kind of argumentation is that? Should they tear down the Arc de Triomphe because it was commissioned by Napoleon? 

Communism is a (troublesome) part of Germany's history. No reason to try and wipe it out. 



GFM 3D said:


> I invite you to go to the construction site, there is(was) a plaque displaying the old floor plan. I even used it as a reference for my 3D model. I think it was posted here before.
> 
> Anyway, there is this survey I made some time ago in my blog. Most people stated they agreed with the palace being rebuilt.


I was refering to the already finished building mentioned a few posts above mine.


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## Torch

Why should someone should remove everything troublesome of your own history?! I think that is a very immature approach. You don't necessary praise the ideas behind a past regime, by keeping structures of that era. In fact, the purpose of history is to inform people about events/mistakes of the past, so society can learn from them.

There was a graffiti on a remaining wall of the former Palace of the Republic.
I think, it fits very well to the discussion right now:









"The GDR Never Existed!"

Source and article: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=4149&language=english


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## El_Greco

Suburbanist said:


> I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.


Why not re-write history books and get rid of everything uncomfortable?


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## durden5573

^^^ You are insinuating that does not already occur today? Germany is one of the few countries that have (had to) come to terms with their history, other countries including mine (Canada) sweeps its historical dirt conveniently under the rug.

Getting back on topic, I dont think the issue is that people want to erase the fact that the DDR existed. The more overwhelming forces behind the destruction of DDR buildings are market driven, not political. DDR buildings were for the most part, ugly, quickly thrown up and riddled with asbestos. They were constructed during a time when the country was destroyed and large amounts of infrastructure and housing had to be build. They were prefabricated functional masterpieces, with little aesthetics taken into consideration.

After reunification people can decide where they want to live, people take pride in their home with private ownership. Investment floods in and people have a longing for their city to return to a beautiful jewel, not a concrete wasteland. The market demands traditional beauty and/or modern design, not DDR nostalgia.

DDR architecture is sentimental, and does have a place in history, but there is no way it can compete with architectural masterpieces like the Stadtschloss for its beauty and pride. How many tourists send home pictures of DDR architecture (The Fernsehturm is an exception which could be considered Swedish).

I can appreciate the history, but have no problem with DDR slabs being torn down. If you dont agree, then I assume you would rather drive a Trabant, than a BMW.


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## Suburbanist

El_Greco said:


> Why not re-write history books and get rid of everything uncomfortable?


I'm all in favor of extensive scholarly historical research. I just don't want the physical evidence of communism, specifically, to remain in Germany (or Europe). Recently I was visiting a tall hydro power dam on the Harz area, and I noticed some symbols and plaques commemorating the completion of works in 1965. This is the kind of stuff that should be removed (the plaques, not the dam).

I'm not saying all commieblockes of Köpenick and Hohenschönhausen should be torn down! But to the extent that it is possible, anything that reminds the commies on those buildingsshould be erased physically. I noticed that some of these flats still have some inscriptions alluring to SPD, some S-Bahn stations have plaques alluring or to the people who built it, and all of that should be removed. 

Whatever is left from communism should be there just to remember how miserable and inherently evil was the communist regime. Isn't this how they do with Nazi places? This is why I think they should get rid of more stuff at Alexanderplatz, since it was the core of East Berlin, and build something entirely new with 21st Century looks and aesthetics. 

Do we really want to keep marks on concrete commemorating "the achievement of the new German people to provide house for the workers of the Socialist Republic"? Shouldn't they (SPD-era officers, neighborhood political commissars, chief engineers etC) all be forgotten as the thugs they were under the socialist regime? There are still millions (some 6 millions indeed) of living German citizens that were greatly oppressed by the commies taking orders from Moscow, many of them retirees living in Berlin still.


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## El_Greco

Where do you draw the line? Some buildings from DDR are fine but others are not? How do we decide? Why stop at Communism? Why not eradicate medieval monuments and the imperialist ones? Whether you like it or not it all is part of history.


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## taboe

durden5573 said:


> DDR architecture is sentimental, and does have a place in history, but there is no way it can compete with architectural masterpieces like the Stadtschloss for its beauty and pride. How many tourists send home pictures of DDR architecture (The Fernsehturm is an exception which could be considered Swedish).


That's exactly the point: they are not rebuilding the Stadtschloss. They are building a hollow shell that looks like the castle. Where's the architectural value in that? Why not build something that would really add something to Berlin instead of faking an old building? It's not like a fire raged through it and they're fixing it up. There hasn't been a castle there for 50 years. Hardly anyone has seen it as it was, so why make a theme park version of it? I don't get it at all...

And a lot of people send home pictures of DDR monuments, they're the most interesting part of the city. There are buildings like the Dom, the museum island, the Brandenburg gate, etc in literally every capital in Western Europe. There isn't a single Western European capital that has communist monuments.



> I can appreciate the history, but have no problem with DDR slabs being torn down. If you dont agree, then I assume you would rather drive a Trabant, than a BMW.


That's a bit of a silly quote. It's not like all communist buildings are crap and it's certainly not like all new buildings are better because they are new. 50 % of new apartment blocks are just as ugly imo.

By the way, my dad used to drive a Lada, it was the sturdiest and most trustworthy car we ever had (even though people made fun of it )



Suburbanist said:


> I'm all in favor of extensive scholarly historical research. I just don't want the physical evidence of communism, specifically, to remain in Germany (or Europe). Recently I was visiting a tall hydro power dam on the Harz area, and I noticed some symbols and plaques commemorating the completion of works in 1965. This is the kind of stuff that should be removed (the plaques, not the dam).
> 
> Whatever is left from communism should be there just to remember how miserable and inherently evil was the communist regime. Isn't this how they do with Nazi places? This is why I think they should get rid of more stuff at Alexanderplatz, since it was the core of East Berlin, and build something entirely new with 21st Century looks and aesthetics.
> 
> Do we really want to keep marks on concrete commemorating "the achievement of the new German people to provide house for the workers of the Socialist Republic"? Shouldn't they (SPD-era officers, neighborhood political commissars, chief engineers etC) all be forgotten as the thugs they were under the socialist regime? There are still millions (some 6 millions indeed) of living German citizens that were greatly oppressed by the commies taking orders from Moscow, many of them retirees living in Berlin still.


Again, why limit yourself to the Communists? You really think the Stadsschloss was build by a democratic ruler? Virtually every building in Europe has blood on it. 

People now may find the Treptow monument (for example) uncomfortable, but in 50 years, it will just be another interesting relic from a difficult time.


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## bozenBDJ

^^ Lada (the auto marquee ) user spotted! :banana:


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## miglanc

Suburbanist said:


> I'm all in favor of extensive scholarly historical research.


And this is why you confuse SPD with SED?


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## Joe Whalen 7

*"Adaptive Reuse"*

It sounds like some of you need to learn the term "Adaptive Reuse." This means that you take either an existing building or rebuild one where the exterior remains the same as is has been for a long time while the interior is either rebuilt or remodeled to meet current needs and usage. In point of fact that is what they are doing with the Stadtschloss site. To me, it is ridiculous to build an ultramodern building side by side with buildings that date from an earlier era. They just look out of place. I believe that, from the designs that I have seen, the Humboldt Forum successfully combines both new and old.

Without adaptive reuse we would not have reconstructions such as those in the core of Danzig / Gdansk, Warsaw, Dresden, or other cities that were badly damaged and/or destroyed in World War II or to satisfy Communist ideology. Other examples of adaptive reuse in Berlin might also include the Bunderat building and the Finance Ministry which were rebuilt and reused from their before World War II uses.

Of course, as someone else here has said, I too respect your right to your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.


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## durden5573

taboe said:


> And a lot of people send home pictures of DDR monuments, they're the most interesting part of the city.


I was referring to DDR architecture and buildings, not monuments. I agree monuments are an important reminder of the past. I love old DDR/Commie monuments, very imposing and stark. The mural on the side of Dresden's Kulturpalast is one of my favorites (although the building itself is hideous). 

The Stadtschloss is obviously controversial, and I dont want to turn this thread into a political debate, but I will tip my hat to those Berliners that were brave enough to get behind and support the rebuilding of something very special. I dont think its a big deal that it isnt 'original', the paradox of theseus has been debated since the 1st century, the true test is the feeling you get walking down Unter Den Linden and setting your eyes on a masterpiece, all politics aside.


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## Ludi

Update:



nicdel said:


> So, hier ein paar Baustellenbilder von mir von letzter Woche. Aufgenommen vom Dach der Humboldt-Box.
> 
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> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9567405825/sizes/l/in/set-72157626797071830/
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> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9570196984/sizes/l/in/set-72157626797071830/
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> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9570185998/sizes/l/in/set-72157626797071830/
> 
> Beispielfassade.
> 
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> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9570189516/sizes/l/in/set-72157626797071830/


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## White Light

What is this piece of facade?


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## GFM 3D

I don't know. it looks like the upper half of the façade, since the building had four levels. I guess they'll move it later.


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## bolg

taboe said:


> That's exactly the point: they are not rebuilding the Stadtschloss. They are building a hollow shell that looks like the castle. Where's the architectural value in that? Why not build something that would really add something to Berlin instead of faking an old building? It's not like a fire raged through it and they're fixing it up. There hasn't been a castle there for 50 years. Hardly anyone has seen it as it was, so why make a theme park version of it? I don't get it at all...


I don't get this. Photography has existed for nearly 200 years now and as far as I've seen the Stadtschloss has been fairly well photographed? It's not like they're remaking it from oral legend.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Facade Explanation*

The piece of facade in the photograph is an example of what the exterior of the Stadtschloss / Humboldtform will look like upon completion. It is a reconstruction of what the facade looked like prior to World War II. I believe that it was erected by the group that was advocating reconstruction of the building in its pre-war state complete with the palace interiors.


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## Ludi

.... red marked piece is the example-fassade....


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## UrbanMyth

erbse said:


> A look towards the other direction, down the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Bridge to St. Mary's Church, in 1900:
> 
> 
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> 
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_Kaiser_Wilhelm_Bruecke_1900.jpg


I love the way the church is framed by the two buildings in this pictures. Views like this are one of the things that make great cities great in my opinion. 

I wish it could be recreated...


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## Tiaren

Yeah, those two are beauties! I too always miss them, when I make them out on old pictures. The twins were pretty grand and extensive as well. Their main facades, opposite of each other, went for one whole block. (Somehow hard to describe in English). On the other end of the block, which we don't see here, there were twin cupolas as well.


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## Ulpia-Serdica

Is there any chance for them to be rebuilt? Or is the land already occupied?


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## Saxonia

No chance. Rebuilding "ordinary" Gründerzeit building happens as often as Germany winning a war. 

Lets have a look. Situation around 2008 on google streetview but it's mostly the same except the current construction site for the U5 (U-bahn line) on the Marx-Engels-Forum to the right.

https://maps.google.de/maps?q=Berli...d=HSB6ZAbYw8lVGQVbQg9vWA&cbp=12,63.49,,0,3.56


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## Cager

If that is the case, we might see them again.


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## Ulpia-Serdica

It's a shame because the twins looked great...


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## Ludi

Fantastic stuff, that kind of pictures hurt ...

They should rebuild more stuff in Berlin, there still lot of "Gründerzeitbauten" but would love to see at least some rebuildings, maybe at the "Karl Marx-Forum on the right side of the picture where they construct the "U5" at the moment...


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## Ludi

*update*

The castle is a good beginning for some reconstructions...





































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

UrbanMyth said:


> I love the way the church is framed by the two buildings in this pictures. Views like this are one of the things that make great cities great in my opinion.
> 
> I wish it could be recreated...


Yes i totally agree to you, maybe we have a chance with reconstruction at the "Karl Marx-Engels-Forum and Marienkirche-Viertel", there is also a thread about in the german SSC-Section.

Here you can see, where maybe reconstruction is possible:












Saxonia said:


> No chance. Rebuilding "ordinary" Gründerzeit building happens as often as Germany winning a war.


I think Saxonia right if he says there will come no reconstruction. For private investores its too expansive and the city of Berlin also hasnt got too much money for such reconstruction. 

But maybe..., we can be lucky, that there still at least many "Gründerzeitbauten", here some exampels.

But BACK to TOPIC. 

They are really fast! :cheers:


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Building Materials Stored in the Park*

The following link was supplied by one of you showing construction progress on the new Humboldt Forum. Are they using the park area across the Spree by the TV tower to store building materials for the new building? It looks like they are from the image of the construction site.

http://www.tv-turm.de/de/webcam_movie.php?current=1


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## Ludi

in this "one-day-webcam" you can see the constructionfield of the castle and in front the construction field for the underground railway "U5"...

I think they only use it for the underground railway, but I am not 100% sure...


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## durden5573

Ludi - thanks for the great pictures, they really show the progress! I suspect they will be at grade before winter arrives.

I'm still amazed at the number of cranes in Berlin's skyline. Its been like that for the past 20 years and I suspect will be like that for the next 40.


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## durden5573

I still love this concept the best (taken from a few pages back):










Would love to see an open courtyard and a public space facing the Spree. Much better than a stark concrete wall.


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## Suburbanist

^^ The Dahlem Museums need as much space as they can get, though.


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## marvelfannumber1

I am not sure if this is quite the right thread to ask this but, does anyone know where I could find any floor plans for the original city palace for a project I am working on? Just wondering.


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## Ludi

here some stuff in german, but an "map/plan" of the old castle in englisch..., i don´t know...


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Original Rooms in the Stadtschloss*

It is too bad that they did not at least reconstruct a couple of the rooms from the original Stadtschloss in the new building. In America it is not uncommon to rent for private functions the ballroom or other large room in a mansion that is now a museum. I would think that there would be a market for that in Germany as well. Any thoughts?


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## JohnnyMass

marvelfannumber1 said:


> I am not sure if this is quite the right thread to ask this but, does anyone know where I could find any floor plans for the original city palace for a project I am working on? Just wondering.


In german:
Ground floor plan

First floor plan


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## MarkusErikssen

This project is great!


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## Suburbanist

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> It is too bad that they did not at least reconstruct a couple of the rooms from the original Stadtschloss in the new building. In America it is not uncommon to rent for private functions the ballroom or other large room in a mansion that is now a museum. I would think that there would be a market for that in Germany as well. Any thoughts?


Berlin has many dozen a building that can be used on that manner.

The Humoldt Forum will be a World-class museum and research facility.


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## erbse

^ And in addition, there will be 2 partially reconstructed courtyards (one roofed).

There's enough room to have a party at the fresh City Palace.


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## ReNaHtEiM

This ugly concrete facade is a shame.


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## cameronpaul

Suburbanist said:


> I support the demolition of DDR structures, not because of their architecture, but because of their political significance. Anything that resembles or remembers communist regimes in former Eastern Europe countries under oppression must be sanitized, defaced, erased, so that in - say - 50 years there is nothing to remember that part of Germany was once ruled by commies.
> 
> It is a pity that they haven't been so aggressive in removing communist-related architecture. They should have taken the same approach they took after WW2 in West Germany: any Nazi symbol, significant monument, street name/plaque was removed, and so should communist stuff from Berlin.
> 
> If Berlin weren't in some deep financial trouble, I'd even say they should build a new (taller - 500m high) observation/TV tower, and tear down the one that currently exists there. It is also bothersome that some Soviet-era monuments remain, such as the one in Treptow Park.


That's a very short sighted argument that simply doesn't hold up. If that attitude was taken with former oppressive regimes Europe would be a very poor place indeed. Many of the iconic architectural gems we admire today were built by despots but that situation is now long forgotten and we have as a result the greatest architectural heritage on earth. I don't personally like most of the commie era structures as they were built to a formula for cheap housing and instant replacement for lost buildings during WW2 but some of their efforts now have an historic interest and are not without some merit. After all, it was exactly the argument you propose that lead to the destruction of the Berlin Schloss, it could easily have been restored but they chose to obliterate it for political reasons.


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## Joe Whalen 7

Suburbanist said:


> Berlin has many dozen a building that can be used on that manner.
> 
> The Humoldt Forum will be a World-class museum and research facility.


From the pictures on the first page of this forum I get the impression that there will be plenty of meeting space in the new building. That being the case, some of these meeting rooms being used for private functions is most likely going to happen no matter how much other space is available in Berlin. Frankly, I'm surprised that they didn't include a hotel in the restored building like they did in that former palace in Dresden. Then the Humboldt Forum could be a fully functioning convention center as well as a museum.


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## Suburbanist

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> From the pictures on the first page of this forum I get the impression that there will be plenty of meeting space in the new building. That being the case, some of these meeting rooms being used for private functions is most likely going to happen no matter how much other space is available in Berlin. Frankly, I'm surprised that they didn't include a hotel in the restored building like they did in that former palace in Dresden. Then the Humboldt Forum could be a fully functioning convention center as well as a museum.


No.

The Etnologische Museum archives are one of the largest in the World and suffers from a shortage of exhibition space, despite its big building in Dahlem.

Had they separated many rooms for other uses, the museum wouldn't move there. Simple as that.


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## Ludi

Cant believe it, so fast, allready next year...










and then soon... :cheers:





































©Berliner-schloss.de


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## Ludi

©Berliner-Schloss.de


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## Jerrodwhite

Looks like the construction work is going on its fullest..


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## Ludi

*new webcams*

here we have 3 new webcams! :cheers:


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## erbse

ReNaHtEiM said:


> This ugly concrete facade is a shame.


While it'll most probably be rather bland, I EXPECT them to use a sandstone or painted cladding there. What makes you think it'll be exposed concrete? That'd be catastrophic, to say the least. :runaway:


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## city_thing

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> It is too bad that they did not at least reconstruct a couple of the rooms from the original Stadtschloss in the new building. In America it is not uncommon to rent for private functions the ballroom or other large room in a mansion that is now a museum. I would think that there would be a market for that in Germany as well. Any thoughts?


:lol: Did you think being able to hire a ballroom for a function is something unique to the USA?

I think the building looks great - and the lighting scheme is great too.

When will it be completed? I'll be back in Berlin next May, so I hope it'll be ready, or at least most of the facade will be up.


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## erbse

Well, Europe's the place the ballroom got invented, we got gazillions of palaces, mansions, museums and the likes that offer such spaces. 

Btw, there's still a total of *25 castles and royal residences in Berlin remaining*. Only 2 got destroyed in WW2 (the City Palace and marvellous Monbijou Palace closeby).


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Just A Thought*

My comments about renting a meeting room for a private function were not intended to offend anyone. I certainly understand that is also a common practice in Germany. I was only saying that it was too bad that they did not include at least a couple of the major rooms from the old palace in the reconstruction. They would have had a use even in the 21st century.


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## erbse

Most of the rooms are designed in a way that they can be reconstructed later on.


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## Ludi

...



noisrevid said:


> Gestern von der Humboldt Box
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> _Bilder von mir_


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## ReNaHtEiM

erbse said:


> While it'll most probably be rather bland, I EXPECT them to use a sandstone or painted cladding there. What makes you think it'll be exposed concrete? That'd be catastrophic, to say the least. :runaway:


Well, it's not about the material they use it's the fact that they mutilate this beautiful building with that facade.
It's so unnecessary. Why not reconstruct the whole building true to the original?
It will look awful.
:badnews:


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## gillski

ReNaHtEiM said:


> Well, it's not about the material they use it's the fact that they mutilate this beautiful building with that facade.
> It's so unnecessary. Why not reconstruct the whole building true to the original?
> It will look awful.
> :badnews:


I agree, i'ts like the modernists just can't resist 'modernizing' everything. I'ts not like i hate modernist architecture either, I mean it would even be nice to see the Columbushaus rebuilt in Potsdamer Platz.


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## delores

Well a war played a large part in it!


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## nr23Derek

delores said:


> Well a war played a large part in it!


Well, only a large part. The building was badly damaged in the war, but not beyond repair. Of course it can be argued that everything that happened in Berlin was a direct result of that war, but the reason the palace was torn down was connected with political ideology and "sending out the right message", a deliberate disowning of the past.

Derek


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## rheintram

It's gonna be an ugly fake. Disneyland is coming to Berlin, hooray!


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## Autostädter

yeah, whatever


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## nr23Derek

rheintram said:


> It's gonna be an ugly fake. Disneyland is coming to Berlin, hooray!


No, it's going to be a very beautiful fake. It sounds like it's going to be a useful building as well, but it is a fake.

As I said upthread, I really am torn over this building, I still don't know what to think of it.

Derek


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Happy Medium*

Rebuilding the historic center of cities like Berlin has to take a "happy medium" approach. While some structures can be restored in every detail for their historic value, a lot cannot unless the whole area becomes one big museum. That too often is neither practical nor possible. The best solution is often just keeping the facade true to the original and then using the interior for modern purposes. This is often referred to as "adaptive reuse" of a building.

Let's face it, there is little demand for an urban structure that has in no way been updated from what was accepted practice in 1945 or earlier. The same could be said for a medieval building where you would be expected to sleep on straw and use a slop jar. I would like to see you sell that.


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## durden5573

rheintram said:


> It's gonna be an ugly fake. Disneyland is coming to Berlin, hooray!


If the soul of a building has to be reduced to the original stones, then there are many 'fake' landmark buildings. Are the brandenburg gates 'fake' because they were half demolished and restored a few years back? Or do the gates represent something larger then the stones themselves.

Have you ever heard an American call the Whitehouse 'fake' because it was reduced to smoldering shell and rebuilt in 1814? Or was the reconstruction a representation of the determination of the people of that time to rebuild and move forward.

Some people just don't get it, and that's fine, the rest of us can enjoy the emotional aspect of what the Stadtschloss represents.


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## urban-dweller

what is so fake about this building? fake would be if instead of REBUILDING that palace there, they'd built a replica of the eiffel tower!!! that would be fake…. they're simply bringing back marvelous architectural wonders lost in the war!!!

all over the world this happens!!!

some architectural wonders are forever gone though,Tenochtitlan would be awesome to see hahaha too bad that one we can't brin back


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## Tiaren

rheintram said:


> It's gonna be an ugly fake. Disneyland is coming to Berlin, hooray!


Such a dumb and close minded thing to say... Did you by chance pick that up somewhere and repeated it here without any reflection?

Yes, it might be considered "fake". But then *many* buildings, even whole cities across the globe have to be considered fake. People in all ages and cultures were reconstructing lost buildings, may it be due to war or natural catastrophes.
And honestly, can a building be even fake, if it has solid walls, a roof and inside a place to live, work etc...

You are entitled to find it ugly too, if that is your believe... hno:

And last but not least regarding the dumb Disneyland-knockout argument:
Buildings in Disneyland are mostly cheaply build in styles of architecture that sprung out of wild imagination or are some kind of crazy distortion of an actual building across the globe (Neuschwanstein Castle as the model for the Disney Castle for example). The Humboldt Forum aka City Palace will be solidly built, to last the ages on the exact spot as it was once standing. It's facades will, with the help of photos, original plans, professional artisans and material, carefully recreated into the smallest detail. The facades are not fake, they are truly baroque. They were and are still designed by Andreas Schlüter, the baroque architect. The only thing, that is missing yet, is age. But does age solely define a building and it's worth? I don't think so. I think, it's the spirit, design and skillfull execution, that gives a building it's worth.


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## Tiaren

*More ugly, Disneyland-fakes:*


Camapanile, San Marco by Daniel Brennwald, on Flickr


White House by Insidiator, on Flickr


Paris City Hall by cremini, on Flickr


Windsor Castle by Peter McClintock, on Flickr


Ypres (3) by Glenn LR Johnson, on Flickr


Frauenkirche, Dresden by rengawfalo, on Flickr


Gdansk by hectorlo, on Flickr


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## Ludi

*old walls in the celler of the new castle*

New video from "Abendschau"( Berlins local news-tv-show) here.



















_Quelle Tagesspiegel, Foto ©: Kitty Kleist-Heinrich_










_Quelle Morgenpost_


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## Ludi

nice photo-collection of the constructionfield here. :cheers:


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## Ludi

*Big coalition(SPD and CDU): "city castle reconstruction is irreversible"*

The coalition wants to finish the reconstruction/ building of the "Humboldt-Forum" as fast as possible.

There will be no construction stop and discussion about other architect plans again.

http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berl...sbau-ist--unumkehrbar-,24905948,25013458.html


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## erbse

Yay, keep going Berlin! kay:

*Fresh 3D Visualisations of Berlin's City Palace / Humboldt-Forum* _(3D Ansicht vom Berliner Schloss )_





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jME7e2Cv23k
Eldaco Visualisations, Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V., Link


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## Ludi

some pics taken with mobile, not best quali. 














































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## mb92

Thanks for Update. Pictures are wonderful. :applause:


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## moustache

Great building !!


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## Ludi

they told Kame in the Humboldt-Box this weekend, that the construction is in time. An advantage of 1 month.



Kame said:


> In der Humboldt-Box hieß es, man sei dem Zeitplan um mehr als einen Monat voraus.
> 
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> Bild vom Wochenende.


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## Ludi

The webcams give the best view. :cheers:



theBluePhoenix said:


> Hier nochmal der aktuelle Stand von den Webcams aus gesehen:
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> Quelle: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


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## Joe Whalen 7

*"Lapidarium"?*

The floor plan for the main floor of the "Humboldt Forum" shows a "lapidarium" surrounded by the restaurant section of the new building along the Spree side. Is that some sort of swimming pool? I only associate the word "lapidarium" with that particular usage. Does it have a different implication in German?


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## Fabouninou

This is a very good initiative from the German people to rebuild their glorious past....

I wish we would rebuild the Tuileries Palace in France so bad... :crazy:


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## PortoNuts

Great update, thanks. :cheers2:


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## Ludi

*second floor is coming! And winter is there too ;-)*














































Secon floor and turret at the corner of the castle










source and ©: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


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## skyscraperus

Bravo Berlin.


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## durden5573

Looking great! I love the 18 cranes in the background too, hard to believe that 25 years after the fall of the wall, Berlin is still one big construction project.

edit: I meant 25 years, not 15 years


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## GEwinnen

durden5573 said:


> hard to believe that 15 years after the fall of the wall, Berlin is still one big construction project.


25 years in 2014! Construction work in Berlin will stop on judgement day


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## PortoNuts

Fantastic!:cheers2:


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## Tiaren

^^
Berlin was always (in)famous for being one large construction site. Already before the World Wars.
Karl Scheffler said in 1913: "Berlin, dazu verdammt immerfort zu werden und niemals zu sein."
Attempt of a translation: Berlin, damned forever in the process of being and never to be. No clue how to properly translate that complicated sentence into English.


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## PortoNuts

Tiaren said:


> ^^
> Berlin was always (in)famous for being one large construction site. Already before the World Wars.
> Karl Scheffler said in 1913: "Berlin, dazu verdammt immerfort zu werden und niemals zu sein."
> Attempt of a translation: Berlin, damned forever in the process of being and never to be. No clue how to properly translate that complicated sentence into English.


I've also read about Berlin being called "the most rebuilt city in history".


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Construction Methods?*

Here in America where I live, they only pour concrete if the temperature is above freezing and rising. I wonder if it is any different there in Germany since it does seem that construction is proceeding on this site even though the weather must be below freezing at times?


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## Ludi

I think its possible also if there is a bit of freezing, but I am not an expert...

But i know with special technic/ use it works.


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## Ludi

*Update*














































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

short stop with car for taking some pics.. 





































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

East-fassade




























my own pics, ©Ludi


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## durden5573

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Here in America where I live, they only pour concrete if the temperature is above freezing and rising. I wonder if it is any different there in Germany since it does seem that construction is proceeding on this site even though the weather must be below freezing at times?


Its no problem in Germany - Berlin is actually relatively warm compared to a lot of places.

Here in Canada, its 6 months below freezing, often getting below -30 and construction rarely stops. Im no expert, but generally speaking (all in Celsius):

0 to -10 (Regular pouring)
-10 to -15 (wrap concrete with tarps and put in heaters under tarps)
-15 to -25 (special concrete used - i believe they put lime and other material in it)
-25 and colder (usually this halts concrete work as the mix will freeze before it gets into place

Crews usually dont look happy working in anything below -25.


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## djmaxliving

That's one fine crane city. Love the tomb being opened, after what looks like 100 years ?. 

A great addition to Berlin.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Question for Ludi*

Are those first couple of photos that you recently posted from the base of the old Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal or are they something else?


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## Ludi

*Front panorama*

...



noisrevid said:


> Bild von mir


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## Ludi

From "Schinkelplatz"



















Eastfassade




























my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


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## erbse

*1887 concept by Julius Raschdorff (who built the Dom) for the Stadtschloss/City Palace extension*

Julius Raschdorffs 1887 design for extending the Berlin City Palace surely would have been spectacular.
How I'd love to see this campanile-like tower getting built (yeah, it's over the top, but it's Berlin!):









http://architekturmuseum.ub.tu-berlin.de/bilder/640/14916.jpg








http://architekturmuseum.ub.tu-berlin.de/bilder/640/14917.jpg








http://architekturmuseum.ub.tu-berlin.de/bilder/640/14913.jpg








http://architekturmuseum.ub.tu-berlin.de/bilder/640/14914.jpg









Pure Wilhelminian geilness.


Or maybe just finishing Schlüters design:









[URL="http://www.chronik-berlin.de/images/photos/entwurf_schlueter_schloss_1702.jpg"]http://www.chronik-berlin.de/images/photos/entwurf_schlueter_schloss_1702.jpg[/URL]









http://www.historisches-stadtschloss.de/cms/upload/bilder/broschueren/berl_stadtschlkapelle_1.jpg

_orig. posted here by Tolbert_


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## Ludi

*actual pics from webcam*

End of this year it will be structurally completed! :cheers:





































Source and © Berliner Stadtschloss


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## Kampflamm

Actual ≠ Aktuell


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## Tiaren

Don't be hatin' on Ludi! D:


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## Kampflamm

I suppose he could have meant that these are actual pics from the webcam, not reconstructed ones painted from memory or something like that. In which case I apologize.


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## durden5573

I keep hoping that as the construction progresses we will see a change in the Spree facing facade to an authentic reconstruction or more open courtyard. I just picture taking a cruise down the river and seeing something more impressive than a flat modern wall.

Otherwise, this project rocks - thanks for the update pictures.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*River Question*

For one of you in the Berlin area:

The webcam images make it look like the branch of the river on the west side of the Schloss has been filled in or otherwise is not there. Is that just an optical illusion, or is that branch of the river no longer there? I really can't tell from the photos.


----------



## Kampflamm

durden5573 said:


> I keep hoping that as the construction progresses we will see a change in the Spree facing facade to an authentic reconstruction or more open courtyard. I just picture taking a cruise down the river and seeing something more impressive than a flat modern wall.
> 
> Otherwise, this project rocks - thanks for the update pictures.


Well, you'll see plenty of other crap as you're sailing down the Spree so the modern facade won't really stand out. Who knows, maybe 50 years from now we'll see a change in attitude.


----------



## Kampflamm

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> For one of you in the Berlin area:
> 
> The webcam images make it look like the branch of the river on the west side of the Schloss has been filled in or otherwise is not there. Is that just an optical illusion, or is that branch of the river no longer there? I really can't tell from the photos.


The waterway is still there...or are you referring to something else?

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.515...m4!1e1!3m2!1s9iTK7Lu4ghYQyCXbCylrDQ!2e0?hl=en

You have to remember that there's still plenty of space between the western facade and the river, it's not nestled up right against it.


----------



## LuckyLuke

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> The webcam images make it look like the branch of the river on the west side of the Schloss has been filled in or otherwise is not there. Is that just an optical illusion, or is that branch of the river no longer there? I really can't tell from the photos.


Just an illusion. This part of the Kupfergaben canal is also quite narrow because of the Schlossfreiheit.


----------



## keepthepast

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> For one of you in the Berlin area:
> 
> The webcam images make it look like the branch of the river on the west side of the Schloss has been filled in or otherwise is not there. Is that just an optical illusion, or is that branch of the river no longer there? I really can't tell from the photos.


That area was the location of the massive monument to Kaiser Wilhelm I. It would be fantastic if that were to be included in the plans for the Stadtschloss, but alas, not that I am aware of.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*River Question*

Thanks for clearing that up. With posting of the recent photo, I can see that I was seeing the base of the old Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal.

By the way, do I understand it correctly that the construction underway on the side of the Schinkel Platz will be new apartments?


----------



## keepthepast

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Thanks for clearing that up. With posting of the recent photo, I can see that I was seeing the base of the old Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal.
> 
> By the way, do I understand it correctly that the construction underway on the side of the Schinkel Platz will be new apartments?


Yes, the new buildings straight across the river and adjacent to Schinkel Platz will be residential, at least largely so. Plus, just to the eat of this area is the Friedrishswerdersche Kirche, now used as a Schinkel museum. Right next to the Church is a huge luxury condominium development that is designed quite nicely.


----------



## durden5573

This area needs more residential units, thats great to hear. With U55 line going in near by this area will be well serviced by transit.

Does anyone know if this bridge is still in the plans? I suspect not, since we have not heard or seen anything about it:


----------



## Tiaren

^^

It was just one of the entries of the competition for the new Reunification Monument.
This is the winner:










Construction will start later this year.


----------



## keepthepast

^^^^

Not quite the impact of the Kaiser Wilhelm I monument, but interesting.

is it a large bowl?


----------



## Tiaren

Yeah, and it's supposed to move under a weight of a certain number of people.


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## keepthepast

Ah, more of an amusement park ride than a centerpiece monument to German unification. We seem to be in a period of 'where to go' in terms of striking a uniquely new look, feel, design. Sometimes the answer is to go back to basics and create something classically perfect. The gimmick of a moveable teeter-totter seems like an idea with a short life span.


----------



## erbse

Indeed. Recyclable 21st century monuments, Berlin is used to that... icard:


----------



## durden5573

Tiaren said:


> ^^
> 
> It was just one of the entries of the competition for the new Reunification Monument.
> This is the winner:
> 
> Construction will start later this year.


Right, I should have known that, for some reason I was thinking the 'silver spoon' was on east side. 

Although I am a fan of interactive monuments, I just cant get to like this one. Hopefully time will change that. The Chicago Millennium Park (mirror ball) is one that really blew me away visiting in person:


----------



## Ludi

...



noisrevid said:


> Das Rondell kommt also wirklich
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Die Ostfassade lugt nun deutlich hervor
> 
> 
> 
> _Bilder von mir_


All pics, © SSC-User noisrevid


----------



## cameronpaul

One of the most exciting and amazing building projects in the world at the moment, looking forward to going back to Berlin and seeing it taking shape, what a difference it is going to make to this part of the city.


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## erbse

Last week, seen from the Dom (Berlin Cathedral):


paderwan said:


> A view to the construction site of the City Palace / Humboldt Forum-Museum


----------



## Ludi

state council building of east germany / GDR - „Karl-Liebknecht-Portal“










my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Kleist D

*Construcion news*


Neubau Humboldt Forum von Kleist D auf Flickr


Neubau Humboldt Forum 1 von Kleist D auf Flickr

own pictures, in public domain


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## KidInManila

Dear god they actually pushed through with the modernist side of the building.

Have they gone mad?


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## erbse

We're just subsidizing the construction industry, since obviously we'll tear this f*cker down in about 20 years, for a faithful reconstruction.


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## Tiaren

We don't have to demolish it... Let's do it, like they do in Skopje. Just slap some ornaments on it...et voilà, looks as good as old!


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## Ludi

Nice work! Looks good. :cheers:

Exactly what I mean..., they can slap some ornaments later on it.


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## erbse

Genius loci recovered. Genius.


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## Tiaren

Why, thanks very much! I too think, I have outdone myself with this one!  Let's immediately send it to Stella -or even better- start a new petition!

by the way, the three statues above the entrance are depicting Wilhelm- and Alexander von Humboldt...and their mother, because she gave birth to them.


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## erbse

Tbh, I don't think it's such a bad idea. They could apply some sort of relief on the Stella facade. That'd at least make it somewhat interesting.

Similar to the Bundesumweltministerium BMU (Federal Environment Ministry), just more distinctive. Sorry for the poster...


Greenpeace-Aktivisten protestieren gegen Spritschlucker von greenpeacede auf Flickr


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## erbse

I added this visualisation to post #1 of the thread:

_Southern side of the Schlossplatz - where once the Neptun Fountain stood (now in front of the Rotes Rathaus/Red City Hall)_








Source


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Just My Opinion*

Some of these comments seem to me to be awfully petty. The chances of getting a complete, faithful in every detail, reconstruction of the old Stadtschloss building inside and out are nil now and in the future. Some of you act like the place won't be complete unless the Hohenzollerns are asked to take up some sort of residence in the place. Would it make you any happier if Georg Friedrich and his family had an apartment in the building?

The only thing that I cannot see is why have a modern design for the fourth side? Why not just continue the overall design of the other three sides on around to the fourth?


----------



## erbse

Because Germany, Europe and the world's dominated by modernist architects who just have to leave their poop everywhere, regardless of the location and the surrounding classical beauty (supported by urban planners, politicians and the media). Instead of the history and beauty conscious Traditionalists and New Urbanists. Simple as that.


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## Cosaonoivay

They have committed to rebuild this Palace , why not go all the way ? of course it won't be a hundred percent looking exactly like the original but at least let people feel the spirit of European classical architecture to the end ...( they could have just let the old structure remained ) if the message is Modernism is the way to go now .


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## Stravinsky

They have been pretty wise to rebuild it with an eye to historical coherence. In around 50 years pretty much all of Asia, Australia, South America and North America will look exactly the same. People will actually look for unique cities like Barcelona, Rome, Paris... and Berlin. Tourism will hugely benefit from this.


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## Dallas star

Stravinsky said:


> They have been pretty wise to rebuild it with an eye to historical coherence. In around 50 years pretty much all of Asia, Australia, South America and North America will look exactly the same. People will actually look for unique cities like Barcelona, Rome, Paris... and Berlin. Tourism will hugely benefit from this.


Unfortunately this is truer than you think.


----------



## Stravinsky

Dallas star said:


> Unfortunately this is truer than you think.


What I mean is, not every city can be as iconic as New York City, but smaller cities that have a unique urban form will definitely have more appeal in the future. The day when you won't be able to tell apart Beijing from Baltimore or São Paulo from Johannesburg... not many people will pay too much attention to the Dresden Neumarkt being rebuilt from scratch a few decades too late after it was destroyed.


----------



## rudicantfail

Great to see that the building is starting to rise up. We were in Berlin last September, and the area was still grassed over. So quickly has the work been done! Out of interest, what is to happen, or has happened with the archaeology that was revealed in the area? Has it just been recorded and covered up, or is some of it to somehow go on display in the lower levels of the new building? We have seen examples of this, in Dresden for example, where a new building has been constructed over the ruins of a building destroyed during WW2, but you can still see the old foundations in the basement of the new build. 

We have photos of the foundations of the original Berliner Schloss, and of a church that was discovered under the Schlossplatz road. Really interesting archaeology, but I can not share the photos with you as I am not able to attach pictures to my posts. hno: I do hope that the historical side of this site will be preserved somehow.


----------



## Ludi

*update*

View from Unter den Linden














































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

Lustgarten gets limited by the old/ new castle again... View from Lustgarten to new appartments highrises in the Leipziger Strasse soon wouldnt exist anymore. :cheers:














































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## Ludi

my own pics, ©Ludi


----------



## Aquarelle

durden5573 said:


> I still love this concept the best (taken from a few pages back):


 I also like this concept. ^^
Anyway, once the building is finished, it will be very, very impressive!


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## Ludi

they wanted to sabotage the good progressing constructionplans with this discussion... hno:

So many years of discussion and now they are coming..., they had to make a decision and so Stella was an good compromise in my opinion.

I think it is unwarrantable if someone after years now wants to start a new discussion about the hole project.


----------



## erbse

Ludi, the above rendering was made by a German forum user following my request.

So, after all, again the German forum is to blame for a major architecture discussion in Germany.  And I'm sort of glad we had it. Modernists need more of a blowback sometimes, to understand not everyone agrees what they think is good for the city.
Of course no one seriously was getting at it to sabotage the project as a whole.


----------



## durden5573

Great updates! Does anyone know what the high level timeline is? I suspect the elaborate facade will take years to complete. I'm very impressed with the speed at which they are moving.

Loving the project thus far! Ludi, not to worry, the feeling in this thread is overwhelmingly positive and that will only grow as the building construction progresses.


----------



## Ludi

durden5573 said:


> Does anyone know what the high level timeline is? I suspect the elaborate facade will take years to complete. I'm very impressed with the speed at which they are moving.


You mean, when they complete the framing? ... yes they really fast now.

2018 they want to finish works, then they want to test the concept for interior, etc... 2019 opening.

End of this year framing gets completed.


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## erbse

Durden: In fact they've crafted quite some portion of the ornaments to date. 
And I guess they'll have much of it in place already once the structural work is completed.

There was an English documentary about it somewhere, perhaps I'll find it.


----------



## Ludi

erbse said:


> There was an English documentary about it somewhere, perhaps I'll find it.


this one? :dunno:

70849547

_Donations__

We would be delighted to receive a donation from you towards the building of the Berlin Palace–Humboldt Forum. Your donation will of course be tax-deductible.

Bank account for building donations 

Deutsche Bank, account no. 669411100, sort code 100 700 00,

BIC code DEUTDEBBXXX, IBAN DE76 1007 0000 0669 4111 00_

More information: http://sbs-humboldtforum.de/en/Donations/


----------



## Highcliff

very good....:master::master::cheers::cheers2::cheers::cheers2:


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## Ludi

durden5573 said:


> If the soul of a building has to be reduced to the original stones, then there are many 'fake' landmark buildings. Are the brandenburg gates 'fake' because they were half demolished and restored a few years back? Or do the gates represent something larger then the stones themselves.
> 
> Have you ever heard an American call the Whitehouse 'fake' because it was reduced to smoldering shell and rebuilt in 1814? Or was the reconstruction a representation of the determination of the people of that time to rebuild and move forward.
> 
> Some people just don't get it, and that's fine, the rest of us can enjoy the emotional aspect of what the Stadtschloss represents.


!! :applause:


----------



## MikkelAndersen

Tiaren said:


> *More ugly, Disneyland-fakes:*
> 
> 
> Camapanile, San Marco by Daniel Brennwald, on Flickr
> 
> 
> White House by Insidiator, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Paris City Hall by cremini, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Windsor Castle by Peter McClintock, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Ypres (3) by Glenn LR Johnson, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Frauenkirche, Dresden by rengawfalo, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Gdansk by hectorlo, on Flickr


Spot on.


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## Joe Whalen 7

Not sure just exactly where Durden's quote is located, but I strongly agree with Ludi in applauding his comments. When a building or other structure has been destroyed, either in war or by nature, the greatest compliment is that it is worth rebuilding as a monument and tribute to the people and the culture who came before. If you can't see that, then I pity you. I for one would rather have the reconstruction, even with an interior that is going to be something different from the original, than having just a memory.


----------



## RegentHouse

Are they relocating the old balcony from the former State Council Building?

Also, that riverfront facade is awful. It looks like an Albert Speer government building when both the East and West German governments removed all the "offensive" ornamentation. I've been following this project for over five years, and the fact that some people are opposed to the reconstruction of such a grand building to the point that they are appeased with a Nazi facade is both vexing and ironic.


----------



## Saxonia

RegentHouse said:


> Are they relocating the old balcony from the former State Council Building?


No. It stays where it is. The Portal is mostly a reconstruction itself.


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## erbse

It'll be really odd to see almost the exact same portals opposite each other, one on a faithfully reconstructed Palace facade, the other squeezed in a modernist commie building.

A true Berlin corner, ja.


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## erbse

_--dp--_


----------



## Saxonia

The reconstruction of Portal IV, the one which is now part of the Staatsratsgebäude, will face the Lustgarten. The Portals I and II which will face the Schloßplatz look slidely different. http://www.historisches-stadtschloss.de/neues-schloss/portale/portal-i/index.html


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## erbse

Indeed. To the untrained visitor's eye, they'll look much alike though.

Actually, the idea of adding a portal to the Spree side grew on me. But looks like it's just too late now.


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## erbse

Taken from Park Inn Hotel tower at Alexanderplatz:


theBluePhoenix said:


> Closer:
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_26032fnjw0.jpg
> Bilder von mir


----------



## steppenwolf

erbse said:


> You're not the only one dreaming about the original Dom cupola and turrets.
> But as the Evangelical Church in Germany faces somewhat of a dire financial situation they aren't able to do it. It could be done with donations perhaps, but even with many historicism/Wilhelminism admirers out there that might be tough. And tax money for something like that? Hmm, well.
> 
> It might happen one day, some time after 2018, when the City Palace is finished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2008-0281,_Berlin,_Berliner_Dom.jpg
> 
> The current solution is more restrained and not bad either.
> But somehow the Wilhelmine grandeur is missing and proportions are a little flawed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berliner_Dom_November_2013_02.jpg
> 
> 
> Especially the cross looks somewhat awkward. It could need a rounded copper covering in the lower section.


This is all so bizarre. Why the obsession with rewriting history and erasing evidence of previous generation's work and impacts. This city won't tell a story of itself after all this nonsesne is finished - it'll just be a weird, idealised fantasy of what it wishes it was, and a refusal to assimilate the city's complicated history into its identity.


----------



## Kampflamm

Who talks about erasing? Berlin is full of Communist and West German postwar architecture and the Dom in particular looked 10x better before the Commies implemented their subpar reconstruction plan. If anything you ought to be welcoming the reconstruction of the palace, after all it will be another step in "assimilating the city's complicated history into its identity."


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Berliner Dom Cleaner than Before*

The Berliner Dom seems a lot cleaner in Steppenwulf's photo than in the other earlier photos of it that have been posted here. Perhaps it is cleaner on the south side of the building than on the side that faces the Lustgarten.


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

erbse said:


> Taken from Park Inn Hotel tower at Alexanderplatz:


Are there any plans for the park like area next to the palace?

If I recall correctly from my visit last summer, there was a Marx & Engels statue, but this looks like prime real estate for a nice project. :cheers:


----------



## erbse

^ It's the site of the former Marienviertel (St. Mary's quarter), part of Berlin's historical old town area. Nowadays it's called Marx-Engels Forum (due to the sculpture you mentioned).

Currently various options are discussed, ranging from single reconstructions in an urban quarter to an esplanade or even a central harbour pool of the Spree (dubbed Uferterassen).  We've got a thread at the Berlin forum, see here.


----------



## erbse

I've posted this aerial before, but here you can see the central Marienviertel of Berlin's
dense pre-war old town, right behind the City Palace and the Spree river:









Source: http://www.berliner-historische-mitte.de/ / orig. link
Photochrome view created in 1920.


Socialist-modernist GDR version of an "urban core" (oh boy):








Source: http://www.luftaufnahmen-deutschland.de/sites/berlin/alexanderplatz.html

Only few historical landmarks remain (St. Mary's, Dom, Red City Hall), without any proper context.


----------



## erbse

_Up, just to get rid of the spam threads appearing at the front page... :|_


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## Periquito89

I think this whole thing about the reconstruction is part of the today's process, the today's mentality, and so its not a retrocession nor a trying to simply revive old ways of being, behave and think. And more, the years of discussion, debates, diversity of opinion and finally the careful treatment to the project only validates it. I´m not much into the politics but I bet this is more a people's wish than merely a government's rule, something probably impossible to happen in the old GDR. This, again, gives more meaning to the project.

Maybe this could have happened many years before, if the people weren't so tied up on their freedom and will.


----------



## Periquito89

What a pity the St. Peter's church, I saw the pics and it really looked good for a reconstruction. I think much worst what happened to Kapelle der Versöhnung: when you don't have much useful things to do, you start to destroying things . Tks God the wall fell ";¬).


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

erbse said:


> I've posted this aerial before, but here you can see the central


Thanks for the info!

Such a shame what happened to Berlin...


----------



## the man from k-town

the current construction site from above


----------



## inno4321

erbse said:


> I've posted this aerial before, but here you can see the central Marienviertel of Berlin's
> dense pre-war old town, right behind the City Palace and the Spree river:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.berliner-historische-mitte.de/ / orig. link
> Photochrome view created in 1920.
> 
> 
> Socialist-modernist GDR version of an "urban core" (oh boy):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.luftaufnahmen-deutschland.de/sites/berlin/alexanderplatz.html
> 
> Only few historical landmarks remain (St. Mary's, Dom, Red City Hall), without any proper context.


^^^^
:bash::bash::bash: socialist :bash::bash:


----------



## ELH

steppenwolf said:


> This is all so bizarre. Why the obsession with rewriting history and erasing evidence of previous generation's work and impacts. This city won't tell a story of itself after all this nonsesne is finished - it'll just be a weird, idealised fantasy of what it wishes it was, and a refusal to assimilate the city's complicated history into its identity.


Were you recently in Berlin, or do you make up your mind based on a "distance impression"? I refer to your statement that the city won´t tell any story of itself.

Unfortunately, I don´t get the premis of your initial arguments either, that about "Obsession with re-writing history". Are your referring to the fact that the city palace get a modernist interior instead of a faithful reconstruction? Are you referring to the modern Copula of the Reichstag. Are you referring to the fact that central squares like Lieipziger Platz get "classicalistic", new architecture, but differing from the historical classisist building once there?

Either, then - you seem to think one should rebuild the destroyed parts of the city faithfully, or you seem to think that one should not reconstruct anything. Which of the two is your actual opinion?

I guess, from own experience, that Berlin is pretty far from being a weird, idealized fantasy of what it wishes it was. It might be weird, thanks to postwar reconstruction filling in gaps of remaining or rebuilt city quarters. What the city "wishes it was", however, is as indefinable as the city´s heterogenity. Also, I think all the rebuilding is motivated by a wish to improve the urban quality and connecting to the more organic rather than traumatic parts of its past, rather than seeking some idealized fantasy. Germany generally, and Berlin in particular have become dissilusioned by "ideals".


----------



## erbse

ELH said:


> Germany generally, and Berlin in particular have become dissilusioned by "ideals".


Ah well, we're just raising a purely ideological generation of ecosocialist dictators (anti science, anti development, anti freedom, pro gender mainstreaming, pro criminals, pro extinction of "Germans" and distinct culture...). They even have their own "SA" crushing shop windows, burning cars and attacking other party members - called "Green Youth". 

I'm not getting the impression that Germans learned all too much from the past century. :| Nip it in the bud!


----------



## ELH

erbse said:


> Ah well, we're just raising a purely ideological generation of ecosocialist dictators (anti science, anti development, anti freedom, pro gender mainstreaming, pro criminals, pro extinction of "Germans" and distinct culture...). They even have their own "SA" crushing shop windows, burning cars and attacking other party members - called "Green Youth".
> 
> I'm not getting the impression that Germans learned all too much from the past century. :| Nip it in the bud!


For the sorry scenario which you just described, it is pretty amazing that the country is led by a christian conservative party, still prowess in science and industry. If anti-racism, anti-prejudice attitudes and ecological awareness isn´t progression, what is? By the way, I support CDU. Preserving germanness is a worthwhile topic, but from a preservationalist perspective and not a superioristic-expansice one. If that concern lets one come out holding racist or discriminating attitudes, one got one´s priorities messed up. Anyways, this will be my only response to non-architectural topics.


----------



## Kampflamm

_christian conservative party, _

Christian conservative in name only.


----------



## ELH

Kampflamm said:


> _christian conservative party, _
> 
> Christian conservative in name only.


But not false, thus.


----------



## Periquito89

Is any idea about fix the facade of the "Hochschule für Musik", would be much more appropiate now? (I mean its up part, like what it has on the facade to the river).


----------



## Ludi

From Nikolai-Viertel 


















my own pics, ©Ludi


----------



## Ludi

noisrevid said:


> _Bilder alle vom Sonntag und von mir_


All pics, ©SSC-User noisrevid


----------



## Ludi

Schlueterhof










new from facebook page


----------



## Ludi




----------



## UrbanMyth

When will construction be completed and the palace open to the public?


----------



## aitante68

2019 I suppose


----------



## Ludi

2018 they want to finish works at the facade and then they need nearly one year for interior, testings, etc.

2019 it opens.


----------



## Ludi

*interior - Holzer Kobler*



















Source: http://www.holzerkobler.com/de/ort/deutschland/post/164


----------



## Ludi

*some more stuff by "eldaco electronic design"*




































































































Source and © eldaco


----------



## Ludi

*Manfred Retting - media day one day before open constructionfield day*


----------



## savas

Strange project. ... Impressive but the result is very cold. The marriage of classical and modern architecture failed in my opinion and the result is very irritating and stern.


----------



## Ludi

*Day of the open constructionfield!*

Thx a lot "theBluePhoenix"! :applause:



theBluePhoenix said:


> (Bild in Originalgröße: http://abload.de/img/dsc_2659u8spu.jpg)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Bild in Originalgröße: http://abload.de/img/dsc_027613smz.jpg)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Bild in Originalgröße: http://abload.de/img/dsc_029690sp6.jpg)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Bild in Originalgröße: http://abload.de/img/dsc_0302aas48.jpg)
> 
> Panorama Schlüterhof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Bild in Originalgröße: http://abload.de/img/dsc_2634gzstp.jpg)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Bild in Originalgröße: http://abload.de/img/dsc_2636mes4l.jpg)
> 
> Für einen besseren Überblick über den derzeitigen Stand der Bauarbeiten:
> 
> Fassade
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0263pzujb.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0269dduqg.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_2643vtu1a.jpg
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_26491cusq.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_02715fuyj.jpg
> 
> Passage
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_02770futs.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0278uyu77.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0280hwu5q.jpg
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0282pyujl.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0300mlujh.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0318ubucu.jpg
> Panorama
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_26329bu1b.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_263303uad.jpg
> 
> Schlüterhof
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0288uuury.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0289cgugn.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_029062u75.jpg
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0292s8u8g.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0298thu7t.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_02948gu8q.jpg
> 
> Eingangshalle
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0314y2um7.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0301abu15.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_03031outj.jpg
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0306sku4n.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0307kgu8f.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0308y9u0r.jpg
> Panorama
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_2630auuu9.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_2631lqufg.jpg
> Räume neben der Eingangshalle
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0309iouxf.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_0321dsu3r.jpg
> 
> Einige Bauarbeiten scheinen sich noch unter dem EG zu befinden
> http://abload.de/img/dsc_0320gbuz1.jpg ; http://abload.de/img/dsc_032269ukp.jpg
> 
> Bilder von mir


*All pics © SSC-User Blue-Phoenix*


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## Ludi

savas said:


> Strange project. ... Impressive but the result is very cold. The marriage of classical and modern architecture failed in my opinion and the result is very irritating and stern.


They had to made a compromiss, there have been also lot more modern options, so I think we could be happy with this, the modern parts maybe can be changed in 20-30 years!


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## Ludi

*pictures from builders' hut*

Here you can see some nice pics made by Rolf Schulten.


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## Periquito89

Ludi said:


> (...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (...)
> Source and © eldaco


I love this view! And just to begin with. Everything looks really cool!


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## droneriot

savas said:


> Strange project. ... Impressive but the result is very cold. The marriage of classical and modern architecture failed in my opinion and the result is very irritating and stern.


Don't worry, it's in Berlin. Either it'll never be finished (airport) or fall apart a few years later (holocaust memorial).


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## Ludi

nothing to do with Berlin, MUC Airport same problems not so long time ago and S21 and Elbphilharmonie also desaster-projects...


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## Highcliff

very good...:drool::cheers::cheers2::cheers:


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## Ludi

Webcam from Zeughaus here.

There is the webcam: 













































my own pics, ©Ludi


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## nr23Derek

Ludi said:


> nothing to do with Berlin, MUC Airport same problems not so long time ago and S21 and Elbphilharmonie also desaster-projects...


S21? What was that, other than something nasty to do with the Khmer Rouge?

For me the jury is still out on this reconstruction. As I said before I sympathise with the aim of restoring the style of the city, but I really dislike pastiche - which this is, despite it being very well crafted. The bigger it grows, the less certain I am...

Derek


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## Periquito89

and I was thinking exactly the opposite, because de more I see it, the more I like. Even the Stella project, which doesn't consider a full reconstruction, I´m starting to appreciate. It'll match to some degree the architectural feeling of the Foster's REichstag (yes I know Reichstags manage to preserved the external and some internal walls, but that's not the point). This is a way the architecture is going today and we see Unesco giving the World Heritage seal to places like the historic center of Warsaw which are most of all a reconstruction. Of course you may always find reason to say that any case is a different one (and for sure Berlin is not looking for that seal), but in my view this is such an excelent and much more meaningfull alternative for this historical place in Berlin than many others things. And seing the kind of work they are doing it's impossible to me see it simply as a pastiche. My horizon goes a little bit far than just see a copy in this one ":¬).:cheers:


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## Fabouninou

Will they put back some original pieces in their original place or the will just copy it ?


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## Ludi

Studys for color selection..., it will be the one on the rightside, so the older visualiations with the yellow fassade are not any more that actual.



















the make all plasterfigures in this builderhut and in another in north Berlin in Blankenburg...










rightside on the top the elements are allready sandstone and waiting...










Old picture help for reconstruct elements...










my own pics, ©Ludi and "Förderverein Berliner Stadtschloss"


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## Ludi

sandstone elements ready









Sandstone aries









sandstone elements









warehouse 









Portal IV element









my own pics, ©Ludi and "Förderverein Berliner Stadtschloss"


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## Ludi

clay figure did his job...










chiselworks with smaler element of the facade...









Borussia figure gets chisel a statue. Its the first and only one for now financed by donation:




























my own pics, ©Ludi and "Förderverein Berliner Stadtschloss"


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## Ludi

*Donate now and support their work!*

Support their work here!


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## Ludi

Fabouninou said:


> Will they put back some original pieces in their original place or the will just copy it ?


no, they cant use the original pieces, they go back to museums, many of this peaces are items on loan.

And often they are in bad structural condition so the cant use them, even if it would be possible to use them.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Palace Details for Sale?*

Once they have made the molds for the architectural details that will adorn the reconstructed exterior of the Stadtschloss and made the copies that they need, I would think that there would be a market for additional copies of these. Not only would they make good souvenirs, but they might also be incorporated into other new buildings. Just a thought.


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## Aquarelle

Amazing craftsmanship!!! Great respect to these sculptors!!! ^^



Ludi said:


>


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## Mr Bricks

nr23Derek said:


> One of those short, but very hard to answer questions.
> 
> My reservations about this building run something like this: The original palace was a magnificent building, albeit with its roots in a social order I dislike very much. The order that created the building has been swept away by history so its reason for being no longer exists.
> 
> Now, had the building not been demolished after the war, it would have been right and proper for it to have been repaired and preserved with a new use. But that didn't happen and it was destroyed. Everything about the palace was history.
> 
> In its place was constructed a new building which very much reflected the ideology of that time. The Palast der Republik stamped in a very proud way the image of the communist era, which in its turn became history. Again, I would have kept the building because of what it had been.
> 
> Architecturally the old GDR "palace" was bold statement, something that looked to the future as seen at that time. In its way it was as bold an architectural statement as the original palace had been, built using the technology of the time, as the original palace had been.
> 
> But it was not to be preserved, instead it's been swept away to be replaced by a fake palace that isn't a palace, that looks old but isn't. Don't get me wrong, I think the use it's to be put to is excellent, but there is nothing forward looking about the visual presentation of the construction. For that reason it's not an "honest" building and it is a bit of a fake.
> 
> What does it say about modern Berlin? Perhaps it says a city that wants to forget its past? I would say that's never a good idea.
> 
> As I say I will come and see it when it's finished if I'm able to do so and I dare say I'll find it stunning.
> 
> Derek


I agree with much of this, however, this building is far from not being hones, quite on the contrary it reflects very well the ideology of today's society. Just like the two previous palaces. Something you touch on when you say the build says something about Berlin.


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## Ludi

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Once they have made the molds for the architectural details that will adorn the reconstructed exterior of the Stadtschloss and made the copies that they need, I would think that there would be a market for additional copies of these. Not only would they make good souvenirs, but they might also be incorporated into other new buildings. Just a thought.


you mean they should use this details for other buidlings too?^^

I am not sure what they gonna do with this plastics later...


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Selling the Architectural Details*

Yes, why not sell some of the architectural details? Some of the smaller pieces would look nice in a garden if used as emphasis. Some of the larger ones could be incorporated into other buildings. Some people like the idea of having something that is a copy of something to be found in a historic structure. One of the ladies in the office where I used to work even had a copy of a small stone carving from one of the English cathedrals on her desk as a paperweight.


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## Periquito89

This is truly amazing!


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Another Palace Reconstructed: Vilnius*

Another royal palace that has been reconstructed in recent years is the palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania in Vilnius. Like the one in Berlin, it was rebuilt from the ground up. Unlike the one in Berlin, much of the interior was also restored to its original state.


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## Ludi

*Lustgarten - Cathedral, Old Museum, Humboldtforum *

...



LuckyLuke said:


> Von der Terrasse der Humboldt-Box


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Another Palace Reconstructed: Budapest*

Another royal palace that was rebuilt after its destruction in World War II was the Royal Palace in Budapest (possibly better known today as Buda Castle).
Unlike Berlin, the exterior walls were saved by the Communists while the interior was rebuilt to serve its new purpose as an art museum and national library.


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## DGerg

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Another royal palace that was rebuilt after its destruction in World War II was the Royal Palace in Budapest (possibly better known today as Buda Castle).
> Unlike Berlin, *the exterior walls were saved by the Communists* while the interior was rebuilt to serve its new purpose as an art museum and national library.



This statement is inaccurate. Nor the exterior and the interior walls were saved.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Buda Castle*

Actually, we are both right. The exterior walls were saved. However, the resulting new building was not faithfully copied as is being the case in Berlin. The existing building in Budapest was deliberately made to look different from the old palace by the Communists, even to the point of removing surviving sculpture like that over the entrance that was a tribute to the Hapsburg dynasty. I was just trying to be brief with my comments and not include all of the details.


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## Ludi

*webcam update*

...



theBluePhoenix said:


> Webcam-Update
> 
> Westfassade
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> Ostfassade
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> 
> Q: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


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## cameronpaul

Ludi said:


> They had to made a compromiss, there have been also lot more modern options, so I think we could be happy with this, the modern parts maybe can be changed in 20-30 years!


I would bet that some of the modern parts will be changed in time but as it stands it can only be a major contribution to the city and the fact that only 20 years or so back it was unthinkable that it would ever be rebuilt at all is in itself something to celebrate - can't wait to go back and see the progress next year.


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## Ludi

©eldaco 

First 1-2 highrises around tv tower are coming, but I think we need some more. :cheers:


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## Mateus Goloni

quomodo said:


> It didn't receive any more damage than the rest of Berlin.
> 
> You can see the damage to the east façade compared to the Marienviertel on the right of these comparison pictures originally posted on the Architectura Pro Homine:
> Before the War:
> 
> After:
> 
> 
> The main reason for the subsequent demolition by the communist East Germany (Pictures) was it's status as a symbol for an unwanted (and failed) system (the monarchy) right in the centre of it's new and modern (communist) capital.
> 
> Ironically the demolition of the palace of the republic (picture in a better state, and another one from the east) on this very spot had pretty much the exact same reasons. It was a symbol of the communist past of East Germany in the centre of the new All-German capital.
> (The official reason was it's asbestos contamination, but almost every building from the 70ies has this problem. One of the more prominent examples is the ICC-Building, opened 1979 in the former west of Berlin, and nobody is going to demolish that one.)


Can someone post a current picture from the same angle of the same place? It would be interesting to see.


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## Tiaren

^^
Please don't. XD We've seen that comparison more than enough...


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## Ludi

*different views*



noisrevid said:


> _Bilder von mir_


©SSC-User noisrevid


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Building Identity*

Ludi:

Is that another pre-World War II building behind the modern structure that sits beside the former East German Council of Ministries building, the one with the section of the former Stadtschloss built into it? The architecture certainly looks pre-war.


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## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Ludi:
> 
> Is that another pre-World War II building behind the modern structure that sits beside the former East German Council of Ministries building, the one with the section of the former Stadtschloss built into it? The architecture certainly looks pre-war.


Have a picture? I can't really make out, what building you are referring to.


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## erbse

Joe, you're probably referring to the Marstall.









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Neuer_Marstall_Berlin.jpg?uselang=de

Hopefully it'll be restored to pre-war glory one day as well:









http://www.ma-shops.de/kohlross/item.php5?id=4863

View towards old town (Marien/Nikolai quarter) and the Red City Hall tower, Marstall to the right:








https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Titzenthaler_Schlossplatz_1900.jpg


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## Tiaren

Oh...yes, poor old New Stables...  They took great care, to ruin this former neo baroque beauty with just a few -but very effective- alterations.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*To The Right of the DDR Council of Ministries Building*

I am familiar with the Marstall building. No, the one that I was asking about is on the other side of the former DDR Council of Ministries building and behind the modernistic building that is actually right beside the DDR building. The architecture resembles that of the building that is the current Finance Ministry (what was once the Air Ministry during World War II). I thought that it might be something from the National Socialist era based on the architecture.


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## turtlebay

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> I am familiar with the Marstall building. No, the one that I was asking about is on the other side of the former DDR Council of Ministries building and behind the modernistic building that is actually right beside the DDR building. The architecture resembles that of the building that is the current Finance Ministry (what was once the Air Ministry during World War II). I thought that it might be something from the National Socialist era based on the architecture.


That's the old Reichsbank Building. Now, with the new addition, The Foreign Office.

http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/77/27/42_big.jpg


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## Tiaren

This one?

Berlin - Außenministerium 2002-08 by Arnim Schulz, on Flickr

It's the Foreign Ministry, built under the Nazis as the Reichsbank in the 30s.
And this is it's modern extension:

Auswärtiges Amt by lars_uhlig, on Flickr


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## Joe Whalen 7

*That's It!*

Thanks for identifying the building for me. Yes, that's the one about which I was inquiring. I felt sure that it had to have been built prior to World War II.


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## _Barca_

Man, it's a shame that the architects in charge want to put their modern crap in this wonderful reconstruction, how big is their ego. Well, maybe the ugliness and dulness of these modern additions will help people realize how beautiful architecture was before. Imagine the embarassment of the architect standing on the inaguration day hearing people say: "beautiful reconstructi... oh my, look at that ugly wall!" :lol:

It's like comparing a Michelangelo with a Pollock, one is truly art, the other one is just a trend.

Hopefully the next generation will tear that modern facade down. Cause I'm sure that no one will give a **** about that wall in the future, only the grandson of the arhitect will protest.


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## marvelfannumber1

_Barca_ said:


> Well, maybe the ugliness and dulness of these modern additions will help people realize how beautiful architecture was before. Imagine the embarassment of the architect standing on the inaguration day hearing people say: "beautiful reconstructi... oh my, look at that ugly wall!"


The day that happens I will loose about 20 pounds, aswell as my permanent headache.

Please let it happen before I die....it won't will it?


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## Ludi

Mikedie said:


>


©SSC-User Mikedie


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## Bearhawke

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Rebuilding the historic center of cities like Berlin has to take a "happy medium" approach. While some structures can be restored in every detail for their historic value, a lot cannot unless the whole area becomes one big museum. That too often is neither practical nor possible. The best solution is often just keeping the facade true to the original and then using the interior for modern purposes. This is often referred to as "adaptive reuse" of a building.
> 
> Let's face it, there is little demand for an urban structure that has in no way been updated from what was accepted practice in 1945 or earlier. The same could be said for a medieval building where you would be expected to sleep on straw and use a slop jar. I would like to see you sell that.





durden5573 said:


> If the soul of a building has to be reduced to the original stones, then there are many 'fake' landmark buildings. Are the brandenburg gates 'fake' because they were half demolished and restored a few years back? Or do the gates represent something larger then the stones themselves.
> 
> Have you ever heard an American call the Whitehouse 'fake' because it was reduced to smoldering shell and rebuilt in 1814? Or was the reconstruction a representation of the determination of the people of that time to rebuild and move forward.
> 
> Some people just don't get it, and that's fine, the rest of us can enjoy the emotional aspect of what the Stadtschloss represents.


As both of you stated there.

Admittedly I do like the idea of the _exterior_ restored to what it was prior to its destruction much like Poland did with many of its devastated buildings. But; updating the 'innards' to at least state of the art building/safety standards I def agree with 100%


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## Ludi

*riverside*



Mikedie said:


>


©SSC-User Mikedie


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## Ludi

*still left 36Mio Euro donations for the reconstruction of the hole facade*














































©Berliner-Schloss.de

If you like to support this project here you can do it.


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## Somuncu

Berlin had nice classic buildings before 1945

Nice to see them again :cheers:


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## ELH

Somuncu said:


> Berlin had nice classic buildings before 1945
> 
> Nice to see them again :cheers:


Yes, but one or two buildings didn´t define the city. It is good that the city castle gets rebuild but that does not restore the architectural loss of the war. Berlin was a beautiful city, a word you hardly can´t use any more, although many other nice things are said about it.

Personally, I believe Kreuzberg (the old Louisenstadt) was the most attractive part of the city before the war, with its kanals, ponds and classical, urban residential architecture.


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## Ludi

But Berlin stills the city in germany with most "Altbauten" / old buildings from the "Gründerzeit". But sure, no compare with the Berlin before the war...

Look for example this thread.

In the center of the city around the Alexander Square and the goverment there dominats the modern architecture, but look at districts around the center...., Prenzlauer Berg, Moabit, Wedding, Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, Neukölln, Schöneberg, Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf... The "Wilhelms Ring"(second big expandation in the Founder Epoch) still mostly there.


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## ELH

Ludi said:


> But Berlin stills the city in germany with most "Altbauten" / old buildings from the "Gründerzeit". But sure, no compare with the Berlin before the war...
> 
> Look for example this thread.
> 
> In the center of the city around the Alexander Square and the goverment there dominats the modern architecture, but look at districts around the center...., Prenzlauer Berg, Moabit, Wedding, Friedrichshain, Kreuzberg, Neukölln, Schöneberg, Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf... The "Wilhelms Ring"(second big expandation in the Founder Epoch) still mostly there.


You´re right. Off course, the architectural quality of those centers vary. Moabit, for one, is in my opinion not that noteworthy.

What I noticed throughout the old Louisenstadt was the, in part, very high quality of remaining old buildings combined with post-war buildings which disturb the overall experience of the area. With a little imagination, however, you can still imagine more or less how it might have been.


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## Ludi

Interesting Berlin-TV "Abendschau-report" from the construction. :cheers:


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## Ludi

*old Mosaics at the Kaiser-Wilhelm-Memorial - petition for saving them*

In front of the Humboldtforum / rebuilded city castle they want to build an memorial for the reunification at the place of the old Kaiser-Wilhelm-Memorial. There still old Mosaics and now they want to move them to another place. I think, they sould save them at this place and create another memorial for the reunification, which coexist with this mosaics...

The mosaics show all state coat of arms of the old unificated german states into the german Reich/ Empire.










Hier in Groß. Quelle und ©Architekturmuseum TU Berlin

Hier nochmal einige Mosaik-Wappen in Groß























































Das Wappen des Königreichs Preußen siehe Pläne natürlich in der Mitte als größtes Bundesglied.










Mosaike im Hallenfußboden



















Source and ©: Gesellschaft Berliner Schloss e.V.










After war, before GDR deconstructed it. 










official plans by the goverment:










Alternativ plan for example:










Source: Deutsches Architektur Forum

There is a petition which you can sign and share, if you like to see them saved at this place.


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## robertwood

Ludi said:


> In front of the Humboldtforum / rebuilded city castle they want to build an memorial for the reunification at the place of the old Kaiser-Wilhelm-Memorial. There still old Mosaics and now they want to move them to another place. I think, they sould save them at this place and create another memorial for the reunification, which coexist with this mosaics...
> 
> The mosaics show all state coat of arms of the old unificated german states into the german Reich/ Empire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hier in Groß. Quelle und ©Architekturmuseum TU Berlin
> 
> Hier nochmal einige Mosaik-Wappen in Groß
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> Das Wappen des Königreichs Preußen siehe Pläne natürlich in der Mitte als größtes Bundesglied.
> 
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> Mosaike im Hallenfußboden
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> After war, before GDR deconstructed it.
> 
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> official plans by the goverment:
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> Alternativ plan for example:
> 
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> 
> Source: Deutsches Architektur Forum
> 
> There is a petition which you can sign and share, if you like to see them saved at this place.


Why do the bad guys always tear down the monuments? In any event, that modern bowl is a horrible replacement for the Wilhelm memorial. A big teeter totter? What a dopey idea! I hope the German people will insist on something that pays some homage to the beauty that was lost when the GDR tore the monument down.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Salvaged Sculptures*

The lions that were on the base of the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial ended up at the East Berlin Zoo and, as far as I know, are still there. Sorry, but I could not find a photo of them to include here. One of you may, however, have access to one.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Lions Now at the East Berlin Zoo*

Here is a photo of two of the lion sculptures that were salvaged by the East German government and set up at the East Berlin Zoo.


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## Tiaren

They look kinda small there, but they are actually gigantic. five times the size of a real lion.


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## sveknu

The coolest thing would've been rebuilding the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial, it looked fantastic. Has that never been considered ?

The official plan for the new memorial looks terrible, btw.


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## LuckyLuke

sveknu said:


> The coolest thing would've been rebuilding the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial, it looked fantastic. Has that never been considered?


A reconstruction is highly unlikely. Berliners and most germans won't support a reconstruction of a memorial for a Kaiser.


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## Ludi

*roof construction starts*

view from Schinkelplatz




























Mainportal










turret and Marienchurch










View from Unter den Linden - Neue Wache



















View from Humboldt University










my own pics, ©Ludi


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## FloatingShift

LuckyLuke said:


> A reconstruction is highly unlikely. Berliners and most germans won't support a reconstruction of a memorial for a Kaiser.


OK, then reconstruct it to honour the past. IMO nothing else will stand well on the place where this sheer beauty that was the old Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial. Just restore it and call it the Reunification Memorial.


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## _Barca_

Not only they build an ugly wall in the palace, now they are gonna put more modern crap in front of it. Man, I really don't get these people.


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## sveknu

LuckyLuke said:


> A reconstruction is highly unlikely. Berliners and most germans won't support a reconstruction of a memorial for a Kaiser.


OK, that's too bad. Could you give a short explanation of why? Older German history isn't my strongpoint,


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## Ludi

Its more the "political correctnis", how we call it.

The old "Kaiserreich" and old reunification includes also Slesia, east Prussia, Lothringen, etc..., so some people would see it as an affront to german neighbours maybe.


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## Suburbanist

Is there any monument to Otto von Bismarck standing in Berlin?


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## Ludi

Of course, the Bismarck monument in the Tiergarten...

Statue by Monkeyhang, on Flickr

Nazis moved it for Germania-Plans...


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## Ludi

*panorama Lustgarden*



noisrevid said:


> Als Ergänzung zu Ludi Bilder von der gesamten Nordseite und dem Lustgarten vom Sonntag
> 
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> _Bilder von mir_


*©SSC-User noisrevid*


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## GEwinnen

LuckyLuke said:


> A reconstruction is highly unlikely. Berliners and most germans won't support a reconstruction of a memorial for a Kaiser.


..but we accept statues of Wilhelm II:

Statue of Emperor Wilhelm II and the Cologne Cathedral by mariban, on Flickr
Statue near the Cologne Hohenzollern Bridge


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Deutsches Eck*



LuckyLuke said:


> A reconstruction is highly unlikely. Berliners and most germans won't support a reconstruction of a memorial for a Kaiser.


That's not exactly true. A wealthy German couple paid for the reconstruction of the giant statue of Wilhelm I at the "Deutsches Eck" at Koblenz that was destroyed in the war. I think that memorial is on a par with the one that was in Berlin.


----------



## Cosaonoivay

I am fascinated by old statues , they are like masterpiece , just look at them they give you chill for knowing that , those are the things that once were alive and kicking .


----------



## Kampflamm

Nope.


----------



## The Eagle

Germany is in a castle reconstruction boom. Also interesting for what the castels will be used for, to make financially sense! But see yourself:

Hannover town, Welfen schloss, Build by VW foundation as congress centre

Zwickau town, Castle rebuild private as nursing home.

Braunschweig town, Stadtschloss as museum. Payed private as a thank you by investor. He was aloud to put a shopping mall on the former grounds.

Pirna town, derelict schloss rebuild as offices for private and government offices, 

Frankfurt town, Thurn and Taxis Palais. Investor rebuild it for office space. Mostly Law Firms

Bad Muskau, village. Reconstruction by donation and government as museum and conference center. Very impressive outcome.

Dresden town, residence schloss. Museum, funded by government. Payed by visitor. The only interior reconstruction.

Zerbst town. Schloss Zerbst. Slow private reconstruction from the birthplace of later become Russian Zarr Katarina the Great as museum, maybe office in part.

Potsdam town. Stadtschloss rebuild by private and government as new parliament building for the state/province of Brandenburg (arround Berlin)

Berlin, Stadtschloss, reconstruction as museum. conference and event space, also as large library, entrance to the metro as well as restaurateur workshops for neighboring museum island. Museum island is a collection of different museums. Put together, it would be bigger than the Louvre in Paris. That one is the biggest museum in the world.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Exterior Finish Work*

Does anyone know how long it is expected to be before any of the exterior finish work on the stadtschloss will begin? I realize that they are not anywhere near ready to begin that at the moment. However, I would expect to see them want to close the building up with the roof and windows in place before any significant work were to begin on the interior.


----------



## The Eagle

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Does anyone know how long it is expected to be before any of the exterior finish work on the stadtschloss will begin? I realize that they are not anywhere near ready to begin that at the moment. However, I would expect to see them want to close the building up with the roof and windows in place before any significant work were to begin on the interior.


They are ahead of there plans! This was supposed to be Feb. of 2015!
Soon as the weather improves we will see some work. Inside they will keep working.:banana:


----------



## The Eagle

The Eagle said:


> Yes, it`s going to look exactly as on the curtain!
> 
> About the concrete: You know how Germans are. Always trying to top things. In this case they are not just rebuilding, no they are also building an ultra low energy consumption building. They put up a concrete shell, on top isolation and on top of that real self standing brick. The thickness of that wall is the very same as of the original. In order to add the isolation they replaced half of the thick brick wall with concrete! There was some debate over it as you can imagine! Some wanted to use hollow ziegel, like the rest of town uses it. You don`t need isolation if you use those ziegel. But because the wall would not contain any brick ziegel at all, they decided to go half old way, half new.
> Now the building uses only 5%!!! of the heating than the old one would have! Because they also going to add an in ground heating/cooling system. Water get`s pumped down hunderts of meters into the ground and back up.


Now I am quoting myself:cheers:


----------



## Ludi

*on St. Nicholas Day*

I got permission by Palantir to share some of his pics in this thread with you. 



> Mir genügt aber ehrlich gesagt ein Forum - das wird mir sonst einfach zu viel.
> Du kannst aber gerne einige meiner Bilder (mit Verweis auf das APH-Forum) dort einstellen.
> 
> Besten Gruß
> P*


































































*Pics © Palantir from APH-Forum*


----------



## Suburbanist

The Humboldt Box looks very nice. It should be given a permanent home after the project is completed.


----------



## Ludi

Maybe in the Europacity.


----------



## Tiaren

Suburbanist said:


> The Humboldt Box looks very nice. It should be given a permanent home after the project is completed.


Sorry, but I can hardly take your hypocritical BS anymore! hno: So the Humboldt Box isn't "cheap" or "fake" as the Frauenkirche is or the Stadtschloss?



Suburbanist said:


> Dresden buildings are mostly fake. New buildings cheaply copying old exterior façades, since pretty much everything was damaged in WW2.


You do know, the Humboldt Box is build of comparatively cheap material and thought to be only temporary? It's not much more than a fancy container. 
Last but not least, if they are going to give it a permanent home elsewhere, they have to tear it down and *reconstruct* it somewhere else. I guess, to you it's still not cheap and fake then...


----------



## Suburbanist

My idea is to take the Humboldt box and leave it on a place for another 5-10 years. I used permanent in a wrong way. 

The Humboldt Box is not game because it isn't imitating something that disappeared.


----------



## Ulpia-Serdica

Ludi said:


> Maybe in the Europacity.


What is this?


----------



## Ludi

One of the biggest development-areas in Berlin, here his own thread.


----------



## marvelfannumber1

Suburbanist said:


> My idea is to take the Humboldt box and leave it on a place for another 5-10 years. I used permanent in a wrong way.
> 
> The Humboldt Box is not game because it isn't imitating something that disappeared.


I'd rather have something that imitates something good, than something new that's ugly.


----------



## Ludi

114224646


----------



## Ludi

*They are taking down the scaffolding in the mainportal...*


















_©eldaco/ Förderverein Humboldtforum_













































_©Stiftung Preußischer Kulturbesitz
_













































my own pics, ©Ludi


----------



## Tiaren

Awesome update, Ludi!


----------



## Ludi

*Eosander Portal - Portal III Mainportal*










Big picture with all details here.









_Source: Berliner Stadtschloss e.V. + Förderverein Berliner Stadtschloss_


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*An Inconsistency*

Pardon my curiosity, but has anyone else noticed that the main entrance as it is being reconstructed has square door openings whereas the historic structure has arched openings for the three doors? I don't see how the new entrance will look like the old one at that rate. Any thoughts or explanations out there?


----------



## White Light

No, Joe, dont worry, they created base in square, but all of stone carvings and decorations will be added after, as those are not done in concrete, but in carved stone. I am quite sure that portal will look just as same as possible.


----------



## Ludi

*some history of this building...*


----------



## Tiaren

Roaming Girl said:


> I am a new user. I didn't read the whole topic thread, and I'm sorry, beforehand, if this is a gaffe.
> 
> Two years ago I visited Berlin, and I went to the Dahlem museums, which are located far from the city center.
> 
> I noticed they said the exhibition will be moved to the Humboltdforum.
> 
> This building appears to be too small to house all the exhibitions I saw there on their current location.
> 
> What gives?
> 
> Will a full ethnographic museum open on the new location?
> 
> Will it have just some highlight pieces that draw most crowds while the rest stays in their current location?
> 
> The Dahlem campus shows it isn't exactly new, but most of the rooms I visited look neat, and the expansive open-plan rooms make a good fit for the big items like Polynesian houses or boats.
> 
> Will they have all that space on the Humboltdforum?


Welcome to the forum! 

There will be actually even more space in the Humboldt-Forum, than there is now in the Dahlem museums. The directors of the museum said, here they will be able to show even many of the objects, that were hidden in depot for many years. The Humboldt forum has much more floor space, than it might seem at first sight.


----------



## Roaming Girl

Tiaren said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> There will be actually even more space in the Humboldt-Forum, than there is now in the Dahlem museums. The directors of the museum said, here they will be able to show even many of the objects, that were hidden in depot for many years. The Humboldt forum has much more floor space, than it might seem at first sight.


Really?

It looks smaller.

If it has a larger area, the better then.

The collection of the museum there is outstanding!


----------



## DiogoBaptista

*Google Earth auto-updates*
*BERLIN | City Palace (Stadtschloss) - "Humboldt-Forum"*



​


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*What is that?*

What is that under construction at the corner of the Humboldt Forum site that is closest to the river right there at the Schloss Bridge? It is separate from the main construction site and, from the aerial photograph, looks like it might be the entrance to an underground parking garage. Can any of you clarify this? Thanks.


----------



## Foxx.22

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> What is that under construction at the corner of the Humboldt Forum site that is closest to the river right there at the Schloss Bridge? It is separate from the main construction site and, from the aerial photograph, looks like it might be the entrance to an underground parking garage. Can any of you clarify this? Thanks.


The new underground U5 station


----------



## Ludi

*View from GDR Staatsratsgebaeude / ESMT European School of Management and Technology*

Once they celebrated the victory over the prussian monarchy , now some sozialist be turning in there grave...










Outside, behind the curtains a hate symbol grows up again ...










view from first floor by Portal IV










library










this room was Gerhard Schroeders office for two years, before the new Kanzleramt was finished...










Room for parties



















conference room










I have not called for the " Socialist Republic " , but took some pictures. 



























_my own pics, ©Ludi_


----------



## Ludi

*roof cafe visible from the street level*

Sad to see the roof cafe growing up..., now you can see it from street level. 

First I thought that maybe it disappears behind the roof. 





























from old museum



















from Unter den Linden


















_my own pics, ©Ludi_


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Parking for the new Humboldt Forum?*

Does the plan for the new Humboldt Forum include an underground parking garage? It looks like it would, if it is going to be used at least in part for what we in America would call "a convention center." While I realize that public transportation is used more extensively in European countries than in the U.S., not providing for parking for the new center would seem to make it a real challenge to park anywhere else around the new building there in central Berlin.


----------



## The Eagle

Roaming Girl said:


> Really?
> 
> It looks smaller.
> 
> If it has a larger area, the better then.
> 
> The collection of the museum there is outstanding!


There is a small misunderstanding - the Dahlem Museum will be renovated, of witch it needs badly, and improved against river floods. Dahlem will stay open. Humbold Forum is an extra Museum for Asian, African, Pacific and South American History! Also it will have some state of the art restoration workshop in it`s space.:cheers: 
The schloss works perfect, since it is located right next to the Museum island, witch are five museums. Dahlem was build for West Berlin. Next to Dahlem are five more museums. The west Berlin centre. Museum island is the east Berlin centre:lol:


----------



## The Eagle

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Does the plan for the new Humboldt Forum include an underground parking garage? It looks like it would, if it is going to be used at least in part for what we in America would call "a convention center." While I realize that public transportation is used more extensively in European countries than in the U.S., not providing for parking for the new center would seem to make it a real challenge to park anywhere else around the new building there in central Berlin.



Very good question! Not only the project is gigantic - See yourself - 
24 000 sq m2 - 264 000 sq ft Museum
4 000 sq m2 - 44 000 sq ft Library 
1 000 sq m2 - 11 000 sq ft University of Humboldt exhibition space
11 000 sq m2 - 121 000 sq ft Congress space, Workshop, Stores, Restaurant...

But the basement is not for cars.....
Fun Fact: Parts of the basement are of a monastery from the 13th century..

But the cars? I have heard rumors....


----------



## The Eagle

I have heard _rumors_ that the building on the left could be used for 1000`s of cars! The building used to be the Marstall - means it was for the Kings Horses and carriages. It has tons of space. It is also empty! Needs a renovation. The river facade is sinking. It also has ( it`s a secret ) a secret tunnel to the Staats rath building on the right. Which was build in the 1950/1960 and used to be Germany's "white house" from 1998 to 2002 for Chancellor Schroeder. Anyway, there is another _secret_ tunnel from that building to the Schloss under construction. People can move under the surface back and forth. Another _secret_ tunnel is underneath the former Kaiser memorial for Germany's reunification of 1871, build 1896. You can drive into the Schloss basement by boat! ^^ It`s already there! There is also a new metro under construction with a station right at the Schloss front!
And the Dahlem Museum also gets a 200 million facelift :lol: But who cares about that of the trek project?:lol: 
Many tourists don't know: Berlin has five centres. The Dahlem complained, seriously, that it was of the path for tourists. One reason for it`s moving.


----------



## The Eagle

Ludi said:


> The Marstall, on top, which is empty. can be used for cars. It has a secret tunnel!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my own pics, ©Ludi


The staats rath building with original balcony. Used to be Germanys " white House" from 1998 to 2002 for Chancellor Schroeder. It also has a secret tunnel!
Thank You, Ludi


----------



## Xorcist

The " Neuer Marstall " (New Stables) is not empty. It's home of the "Hochschule für Musik Hanns Eisler" (Hanns Eisler Academy of Music), which is one of the leading music conservatories in Europe. After renovations in 2005, the building became the home of the Hanns Eisler Academy of Music and the Berlin City Library. More restoration work has continued since 2007.


----------



## erbse

Using a baroque building for a car park... Seriously, only an American could come up with this. :lol:
jk


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Erbse: Doesn't Dresden have a ramp out of the underground parking under the Neumarkt that comes out through a restored building?


----------



## Ludi

*New Webcam for the "Schlueterhof"*

....



theBluePhoenix said:


> Westfassade:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Südfassade:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ostfassade:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schlüterhof:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quelle: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


----------



## erbse

The Schlüterhof will be one of a kind! An urban masterpiece space in the making.



Steve Gatlin said:


> Erbse: Doesn't Dresden have a ramp out of the underground parking under the Neumarkt that comes out through a restored building?


Hi Steve, no, not at all. The closest to this would be the Neumarkt garage you can spot to the right here, but as you can see, it's not using the built up space at all. Germans (or Europeans in general) would never allow a pre-industrial times building to be used for car parking (or a reconstruction of such). Look at the crap that was done to Detroit's Michigan Theater, gosh! It hurts.


----------



## turtlebay

When will dome construction commence?


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Planning for Parking*

I am not suggesting that anyone build a parking lot into a historic building. However, the Humboldt Forum is really just modern building wrapped in a historic facade. Planning for parking would only seem logical to me. 

Before you say that this is not a European thing, what about Max Joseph Platz in Munich. My understanding is that they built an underground parking garage there with minimal distraction from the site and that certainly is a historic location in that city.


----------



## Ludi

About Parking..., you should go by train or Bus, so Museum Iland and Boulevard Unter den Linden is for walking not for parking. ^^

About dome construction:

They start with the steelconstruction this spring.


----------



## keepthepast

^^

Great progress and an exciting time for this building and Berlin.

I can't help but say, at the same moment, 'there's still time to do the interiors right too!!!'


----------



## Zenith

Cannot wait to visit Berlin this year.


----------



## keepthepast

Zenith said:


> Cannot wait to visit Berlin this year.


You will love the city. I meet people there from all over the, most of whom say it's their favorite place.

visited you blog. Great job!


----------



## JustinHerman

keepthepast said:


> ^^
> 
> Great progress and an exciting time for this building and Berlin.
> 
> I can't help but say, at the same moment, 'there's still time to do the interiors right too!!!'


 From what I've read, rebuilding the original interiors is going to be left to future generations. 

How I wish I could be one of those generations! For the time being, I feel fortunate to be able to see at least exterior being rebuilt.


----------



## Sir Moc

everyone can help to rebuild the castle with a little donation.


----------



## keepthepast

JustinHerman said:


> From what I've read, rebuilding the original interiors is going to be left to future generations.
> 
> How I wish I could be one of those generations! For the time being, I feel fortunate to be able to see at least exterior being rebuilt.


Particularly THIS interior which was considered by many experts in architecture and design to have been Europe's most notable interior design and construction. Even if just the most important rooms and halls were to be replaced, it would be immeasurably valuable.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Thanks for the Great Update Photos*

I would like to thank Ludi for the great update photos of this project in progress that he has been providing. This gives those of us who are not in Berlin a lot better feel for what is going on there. The detail that he provides is very much appreciated.

Again, thank you very much.


----------



## JustinHerman

I see new scaffolding going up at the base of the southwest corner. Could this be for brickwork on the façade? (!!)


----------



## erbse

According to Mr. von Boddien, the bricks will start climbing their way up the facade by the beginning of April.


----------



## keepthepast

Are plans made or at least underway for a major dedication of the building when completed? I was fortunate to attend the official dedication of the Frauenkirche in Dresden, and similar event for the Stadt Schloss would be another 'don't miss' experience.


----------



## erbse

Of course there will be a grand ceremonial dedication. It's one of the most important projects of reunited Germany so far, on par with the Bundestag. It will be at some point in 2019 most probably, we'll see how they'll proceed.


----------



## Highcliff

it is already topped out...:master::master::cheers::cheers2:


----------



## Ludi

New stuff by Frankonia Development, which are developing the Schinkelsquare next to City Palace...










There left some details, but I want to share them here anyway. 










For example the cross on the top wouldnt be that big.



















Source: http://berlin-schinkelplatz.de/


----------



## White Light

Just little off topic, how will look like Schinkelsquare/Schinkelplatz? Is that reconstruction also?


----------



## Ludi

Not really, i posted some stuff about Schinkelsquare construction here.


----------



## White Light

Oo, God, why this kind of objects in the very center?! Quite strange... I mean, its not bad, but... It is...


----------



## JustinHerman

White Light said:


> Oo, God, why this kind of objects in the very center?! Quite strange... I mean, its not bad, but... It is...


I agree. I rationalize by saying anything's better than a vacant lot, or worse, a parking lot.


----------



## erbse

There were better proposals for Schinkelplatz though, such as the very classical one by Stuhlemmer:

http://www.stuhlemmer.net/index.php?content=projects&type=buildings&project=schinkelplatz

(Click the "Bild" links for more renders.)


----------



## White Light

Faaaaaaar better, if you ask me!

Shame...


----------



## White Light

Vs current version


----------



## keepthepast

We accept the reality that current day architects are nearly all similarly trapped in the modernist format. That noted, however, it is very, very hard to believe that anyone could look across the river at the Schloss and to the north at the Kronprinzen Palais and to the west at the Friedrichswerdersche Kirche and NOT see how utterly disruptive these contemporary boxes are to the neighborhood.


----------



## HulkRogan

Great stuff guys! My kind of stuff...


----------



## JustinHerman

I see they're framing windows in the Schlueterhof.


----------



## Ludi

_the crane on the south side gets dismounted..._











Source: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Method of Construction Question*

From the "mock-up" of the section of the exterior wall of the Stadt Schloss, I get the impression that the building actually has a stucco finish with stone (or cast) decorative features. Will they be putting a stucco finish directly over the reinforced concrete that was put up in the first stages of reconstruction or is there a brick (or other) surface to be installed first?


----------



## JustinHerman

No. Joe, the façade is going to be bricked up before the stucco is applied. The first of the bricks have arrived and scaffolding is being erected for brickwork. Brickwork is set to commence at the beginning of April. You can see bricks already delivered and stacked up on the ground in front of the west façade, as well as the scaffolding on the webcam.


----------



## Tiaren

The brick wall will also be self-supporting, so if they decide to rebuild some of the inner concrete parts of the Humboldt-Forum, the outer brick wall with the facade ornaments will be left unaffected.


----------



## keepthepast

That is excellent construction technique. Is there much hope that the interior may eventually be renovated in part to an original room or two? or is this just a pipe dream?


----------



## JustinHerman

keepthepast said:


> That is excellent construction technique. Is there much hope that the interior may eventually be renovated in part to an original room or two? or is this just a pipe dream?


Rebuilding the original interior rooms is being left to future generations. Of course, at the rate the city is rebuilding/restoring its historic structures, I suspect Berliners won't be able to wait that long.


----------



## JustinHerman

I see the windows behind the scaffolding in the southwest corner are being framed. 

Also, at the risk of dodging tomatoes, I say what apparently is to be a café on the roof isn't as obnoxiously obtrusive as it initially seemed it would be. In fact, I'm starting to like it - unlike the annoyingly minimalist East Façade, which I hope gets bulldozed and replaced with the real thing in our lifetimes.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Thanks (and more)*

Thanks for the explanation of the construction methods that are being used in the construction of the building. 

Separately, I can see why the east facade was not reconstructed in the form that it was prior to World War II since it was a jumble of older structures that did not match the other three sides anymore than the planned new construction. However, I don't see why they couldn't have just continued the style of the other three sides on around to encompass the fourth side so that all four sides would at least look like they were part of the same building. After all, it's not like they are trying to reconstruct the whole building just like it was prior to the war and its destruction by the Communists.


----------



## erbse

There were such concepts, feel free to check some of the earlier pages of this thread.


Anyway... The cupola starting to rise! :master:

http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/










In 2018...








http://berliner-schloss.de/en/


----------



## Ludi

Bavarian TV visiting the stonemason workshop in the City Bamberg...


----------



## Tiaren

Wow, very interesting video! :O The first time you can see how fast and in which large quantity facade ornaments are already in work. The high quality of the work is astonishing too. The Stadtschloss will be a true marvel to behold, when it is finished.


----------



## SputnikBooster

A very nice video, indeed.  
Seeing all that machinery and robots doing their work, one can really imagine how much effort was put into building the original palace.


----------



## The Eagle

They cut the brick wall in deepness to add insulation. They try to build with the newest low energy consumption building. Because the Schloss has been build with thick solid bricks. Not like today with hollow Ziegel. Anyway, to get space for foam, they replaced the back part with a thin layer of concrete.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*They Look A Lot Alike*

The present state of construction of the Humboldt Forum makes it look remarkably like the former Reich Air Ministry Building (now the Federal Finance Ministry).


----------



## erbse

Stadtschloss seen from Park Inn Hotel tower at Alexanderplatz:










by SSC forumer noisrevid, posted at the Berlin forum thread


----------



## JustinHerman

Beautiful picture! Nice details all over. BTW, what is being built across the street from the Rotes Rathaus? I know there's a subway line being put in, but much construction appears to be above ground.


----------



## erbse

From that perspective, it might be an illusion from the excavations, much of that will be hidden when the lot is refilled again. But of course there will be overground station buildings for the subway/U-Bahn 5 (U5). 

Berlin forum thread: U55/U5 extension

This is what you can see now, blended into the urban surrounding with the ground cut out like in a dollhouse - of course it won't be seen like that (you'll only see the entrances, well I hope so):









Currently:








Source: official U5 website http://www.projekt-u5.de/de/berliner-rathaus/

The station:








Architects: Hentschel Oestreich. Hi res renders: Buenck+Fehse. Image source

The other two new stations will be nicer imho.
Museumsinsel: http://www.projekt-u5.de/de/museumsinsel/
Unter den Linden: http://www.projekt-u5.de/de/unter-den-linden/


----------



## Tiaren

Ludi said:


> My hopes for the east façade go in the direction of a truly successful example in Stresemannstrasse . Here two pictures ...


What is so "successful" about that facade? Looks rather cheap and lifeless...would have looked a heaps better as stone cladding with a bit more structure.


----------



## Ludi

Looks bether then many other concrete facades and it would match well with the other original sandstone facades I think...


----------



## erbse

We'll get ornaments in sandstone on the baroque facade, but the vast surface area will be covered in plaster and paint.


----------



## Red85

Steve Gatlin said:


> Head butting could turn messy with a Pickelhaube.


I'm thinking about thunderstorms.


----------



## Ludi

*roadshow for donations around the world...*



























Source: Stiftung Humboldtforum


----------



## rudicantfail

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Personally, I would have deleted the dome from the new building. The building actually looks complete without it and it serves no purpose except to restore what was there before the war. Since they have gotten so creative with the east side of the new building, don't tell me that they couldn't have just skipped adding it to the reconstruction and saved that money.


:? :?

I take it that you never saw the Palast der Republik. hno: Perhaps you would prefer that they demolish this Schloß, and rebuild the Palast, as that does not have a dome. In fact, it had no sole.......! 

The need for rebuilding the Berliner Stadtschloss is to try an regain an interpretation of lost architecture; a grand building lost in the madness of a crazy war. They can only do so much in today's expensive and demanding world, but the dome is an integral part of the rebuild. Perhaps the new building will not have the fine detail and grandeur of the original, but it must at least be a fitting interpretation.

Just my humble opinion. :cheers: :wave:


----------



## rudicantfail

I was wondering, with all this reconstruction going on around Berlin, has there be any thought into rebuilding the Denkmalskirche on the ugly and barren space left on the side of the Berliner Dom? It is so sad to see the scar left on the Dom where our glorious Communist comrades decided to blow up Berlin's historical past. Again! The building is incomplete as it is at the present time.

But, as with everything, it is all about money. Such a project would not come cheap. Perhaps dear Mr Putin can fund it..........


----------



## marvelfannumber1

rudicantfail said:


> The need for rebuilding the Berliner Stadtschloss is to try an regain an interpretation of lost architecture; a grand building lost in the madness of a crazy war. They can only do so much in today's expensive and demanding world, but the dome is an integral part of the rebuild. Perhaps the new building will not have the fine detail and grandeur of the original, but it must at least be a fitting interpretation.


If only the same could be said for the Reichstag.... hno:

If there is one thing I hate more than modern architecure it's disgusting hybrids/poor restorations.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

rudicantfail said:


> :? :?
> 
> I take it that you never saw the Palast der Republik. hno: Perhaps you would prefer that they demolish this Schloß, and rebuild the Palast, as that does not have a dome. In fact, it had no sole.......!
> 
> Personally, I always hated the Palast der Republik. For the most part the Communists seemed to go out of their way to design ugly cheaply constructed buildings that reflected their overall misguided philosophy that what people really wanted was poor quality in everything.
> 
> I just think that the dome is optional at best. What I really don't see is the abrupt change in architecture to modernist on the east front of the new building or going to the trouble of reconstructing some of the interior historic walls. If the interior is really going to be modern, mixing modern and baroque is just about as ugly as what the Communists did.


----------



## erbse

The interiors won't be "modern" or even designed all that much, but rather functional. They will seem somewhat unclad, not pushing itself in the spotlight. It will be all about the expositions. This is due to the plan to reconstruct interiors one after another, starting with the gorgeous Gigantentreppe ("Giant Stairway") and the Schweizer Saal ("Swiss Saloon") being the first to come.

Schlüter's "Giant Stairway", probably the 1st interior reconstruction:








/PD old

More interior views: http://berliner-schloss.de/en/the-a...riors-of-the-palace-general-views-amber-room/


----------



## Ludi

Leftside the Foreign Office , the State Council building rightside ...



















View with State Council building (Staatsratsgebaeude) , Neuer Marstall (new stables), Rotes Rathaus (Town Hall).










Sophienchurch and northwestern palace corner.



















The symbolic first stone is now gone and now only comes once the insulation / seal. 



















narrow and square brick rows alternately...










Alcove for gutter water pipes ?










The first elements of Silesian and Saxon sandstone wait.




























_my own pics_


----------



## White Light

Ludi said:


> narrow and square brick rows alternately...


Why like that?


----------



## rudicantfail

Nice update Ludi, it is amazing to see how to build is coming together. I look forward to September when I am next in Berlin. It is going to look so strange seeing this huge building where only a few years ago there was only an open grassed space. The last time I saw the new build was last August.


----------



## rudicantfail

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> rudicantfail said:
> 
> 
> 
> :? :?
> 
> I take it that you never saw the Palast der Republik. hno: Perhaps you would prefer that they demolish this Schloß, and rebuild the Palast, as that does not have a dome. In fact, it had no sole.......!
> 
> Personally, I always hated the Palast der Republik. For the most part the Communists seemed to go out of their way to design ugly cheaply constructed buildings that reflected their overall misguided philosophy that what people really wanted was poor quality in everything.
> 
> I just think that the dome is optional at best. What I really don't see is the abrupt change in architecture to modernist on the east front of the new building or going to the trouble of reconstructing some of the interior historic walls. If the interior is really going to be modern, mixing modern and baroque is just about as ugly as what the Communists did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree that the Palast was a terrible looking building. I never went inside, the outside was enough... But, I suppose that the East Berliners at the time were proud to some extent of their modern building. Just think about all drab and dreary war damaged buildings that were plentiful in the East right up to the Wall coming down. But, the Palast is no more. I have to say that I prefer old architecture to modern, which is why I am glad to see the old Schloss rebuilt, even though it is a modern construction of concrete and steel made to look something like the original. The feel of Unter Den Linden is still one of great architecture; grand old buildings framing a historical heart of the city. The Brandenburger Tor at one end, the Berliner Dom at the other. Yes there are many terrible looking modern buildings along the way, another tragedy of the result of war, but look past them, and forget them. The new Schloss will be a fine addition to the architectural gems in the area, even if it is a fake. But I to am not convinced by the East facade, I feel that it might ruin the whole thing, and I am not really to sure why the planners have gone ahead with this modern gimmick. Do one thing or the other, not mix two opposing styles. This modern facade will look out of place with the Dom one side, and the Neuer Marstall the other side. But, we will have to wait and see. Perhaps it may well look really cool in the end. I am just looking forward to seeing the building completed.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ludi

*still left donations for the hole facad*


----------



## Tiaren

^^


> Heute besuchte Bundesbauministerin Barbara Hendricks die Baustelle und war dabei, als das erste Sandsteinelement der *Barracken*fassade hier einfuhr.


I am outraged! D:


----------



## JustinHerman

I see the first window installed on the Sudfassade.


----------



## Ludi

*first window*

First window installed at southfacade. :cheers:

webcam


----------



## Doppelganger

The palace is coming along nicely! Great to see the rebirth of the intimate urban spaces around the palace that were lost when it was demolished, such as schlossplatz along the south facade. Does anyone know if there are plans to relocate the Neptune Fountain back to it's proper place along the south facade?


----------



## erbse

If only the squares would indeed come back... Currently they are planned in a very simplified form. There's still a way to go to get the former beauty of the Palace's vicinity back.


----------



## erbse

*Neptune Fountain at Schlossplatz / Neptunbrunnen*



Doppelganger said:


> Does anyone know if there are plans to relocate the Neptune Fountain back to it's proper place along the south facade?


There were plans indeed, but currently it's a bit of what we call "Hickhack" in German. For the near future, the revitalisation of parts of Berlin's historical old town across the Palace are planned, see this thread. That's where the fountain is now. Many people call for the fountain to be moved back to the side of the Palace, but it's not decided yet, we probably need to get rid of Regula Lüscher first, what likely happens in 2016 (she's in charge of the Senate's urban planning).

The *Neptune Fountain* / Neptunbrunnen (built 1891), currently in front of Berlin's Red City Hall (Rotes Rathaus):









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...us_with_the_Neptunbrunnen_in_front_-_2752.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Neptunbrunnen_(4779641029).jpg









Neptunbrunnen by D Sefik, on Flickr









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Neptun_4a.jpg









FOL 2011 - Fernsehturm & Neptunbrunnen - Festival of Lights by Marcus Klepper - Berliner1017, on Flickr
More Festival of Lights: https://flic.kr/p/djJEdV & https://flic.kr/p/chA2gy

When it was still next to the City Palace:








https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_-_Neptunbrunnen_-_um_1900.jpg

Schlossplatz (Schloßplatz)








https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:19220811_berlin_schlossplatz.jpg

It's massive. And massively lovely.


----------



## Doppelganger

Great images there Erbse! Hopefully they,ll do the right thing and move it back where it belongs. I can imagine that when the palace is finally complete and landscaping and traffic 
issues around Schlossplatz are worked out that city planning officials will come to their senses and see the relocated fountain as a great "finishing touch" to the heart of Berlin!

I'd also love to see the pediment and fine statuary that used to adorn the north facade of the Neuer Marstall rebuilt as well, but I suppose now I'm just "nitpicking"! haha


----------



## Doppelganger

Going back to the issue of the palace dome, I'm in total agreement that rebuilding the palace without it would have been a terrible omission! Though not included in the original Baroque plan as envisioned by Schluter, it's construction by Stuler in 1845 (to a design by Schinkel no less!) was an important addition and added to Berlin's wonderful "domed" skyline.

It's reconstruction goes a long way to restoring another piece of Schinkel's vision for Berlin. Imagine Berlin without the Neu Wache, the Schauspielhaus or the Alte Museum...all works by Schinkel!

One thing I'm not so clear about is whether or not the two cupola's located at either end of the west facade will be rebuilt. Though originally a later addition to the palace, I've seen reconstruction images with them added and others without them, and judging by the new roof construction, it would appear as though they won't be reincorporated into the new build. Frankly, I'm not sure their omission is such a bad thing as they did appear to be an "awkward" addition. Does anyone know if they'll make into the reconstruction?


----------



## Tiaren

Doppelganger said:


> One thing I'm not so clear about is whether or not the two cupola's located at either end of the west facade will be rebuilt.


They're not going to be rebuilt. They just recently completely ruled this out.


----------



## Doppelganger

Very soon, Schinkel's dome will once again tower over Schinkelplatz!


----------



## erbse

The figurines along the roofline are also postponed as an option for later times. They aren't structurally needed, so if there are enough donations, they can come back once the current project is finished.


----------



## rudicantfail

erbse said:


> The figurines along the roofline are also postponed as an option for later times. They aren't structurally needed, so if there are enough donations, they can come back once the current project is finished.


Am I right in thinking that a lot of the rubble from the Schloss destruction has been located buried at sites around Berlin? Items from the Schloss facades such as the figurative sculptures and other ornate stone work have been located, albeit damaged and broken up. But from broken pieces, new replicas can be made! And if good pieces of sculptures, window surrounds, columns, capitals and fine cornices are found, then these could be displayed within the new Schloss as historical museum pieces.


----------



## Doppelganger

Does anyone know the fate of the equestrian statue of Kaiser Wilhelm that used to sit in the middle of the memorial in front of the old schloss? I know the communists removed it when they destroyed the schloss and old memorial but was the statue preserved and relocated to a museum or was it completely destroyed as well?



If it still exists then perhaps a location could be found for it around the new scloss?


----------



## albanyjd

All that remains of the National Kaiser Wilhelm Monument are the lions which have been relocated to the Zoo.


----------



## Ludi

there still exist one eagle too...


----------



## White Light

I didn't know that eagle survived also! Very nice reconstruction!


----------



## albanyjd

The Frauenkirche in Dresden successfully incorporated surviving segments into the reconstruction. It is hoped the same can be accomplished with the Schloss.


----------



## Ludi

*from tv tower*

...



skyscraper2012 said:


> © _heartpeace


----------



## Slartibartfas

^^

First, an imperial palace is built. Then ....?


----------



## erbse

Then we get se Emperor back?

But no Austrian, thanks.


----------



## The Eagle

Doppelganger said:


> Does anyone know the fate of the equestrian statue of Kaiser Wilhelm that used to sit in the middle of the memorial in front of the old schloss? I know the communists removed it when they destroyed the schloss and old memorial but was the statue preserved and relocated to a museum or was it completely destroyed as well?
> If it still exists then perhaps a location could be found for it around the new schloss?


That memorial was basically the memorial for the re-unification of Germany 1871
Unfortunately, it became the name Kaiser Wilhelm memorial. It survived WW2 but was raised later. Most pieces where smashed after demolition on purpose, like those of the schloss. They even gardet at night, to prevent people from stealing and saving pieces. Workers where threatened, for a downsizing of there own condos or rental units, if there was any hesitation to dismantle the national memorial.


----------



## Ludi

*Extrablatt*

Today I got post again . Three very interesting pages I once scanned.

Of the 105 million donation requirements are now 46 million together , 59 million € is still missing and this year again we need at least 15 million € in order to be able to stay on schedule and to be able to assign the necessary orders.



























_©Berliner Extrablatt/ Foerderverein Berliner Schloss e.V._

If you like to donate and help them, here you can do. kay:


----------



## JustinHerman

After 70 years of cheap modern architecture, it amazes me that this can still be produced.


----------



## marvelfannumber1

I am quite happy they made the decision to retain the original Prussian iconography here, as opposed to just outright removing or neglecting it as if Prussia never existed. It absolutely infuriates me when "Restorations" do that, and I am happy it is not present here.


JustinHerman said:


> After 70 years of cheap modern architecture, it amazes me that this can still be produced.


Now if only we could put the same skill into creating original buildings too.......

A futile dream, I know.


----------



## Periquito89

This is great!!!


----------



## Ludi

Lustgarten and Altes Museum from new Palace/ Humboldtforum. :cheers:



skyscraper2012 said:


> © dnk2032


Soon I will visit the shell of building too. kay:


----------



## JustinHerman

keepthepast said:


> What's amazing about the video posted above is how in only two months, the city streets were cleared and traffic seemed to be moving in good order.


 With old women swinging buckets no less.  Ah well, Germans have always been hard workers. It must be in the genes.


----------



## Ludi

Some fresh impressions...










TV Tower behind the cupola.
































































first window










Alte Nationalgalerie










Eastside, Dom, Spree and turret










southfacade








_
my own pics_


----------



## JustinHerman

Thank you for this closer look at the construction progress, especially the masonry work. How complicated the brick- and stonework is, and how beautiful.

Also, from this perspective, the vertical concrete cylinder above the octagonal base of the dome suddenly makes sense.


----------



## Periquito89

Even thinking this is going in a good pace, I can't help being impatient wanting to see more! Great pics!


----------



## Catadau

They are starting to put the bases of the columns at the Schlüterhof :banana:

http://cam04.berlinerschloss-webcam.de (look at the left side)


----------



## APOQUINDO

Wow, they are starting with the coverings, how exciting!


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Construction Materials*

Are they using precast sections for things like those openings under the ground floor windows or are those cut stone? Just curious.


----------



## Periquito89

wow! just turned midnight here and the day is coming up in Berlin, super cool webcam! Great scene right now (although not pretty sure about the weather - if the sun is coming too "8¬D - by now seens good from here)


----------



## JustinHerman

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Are they using precast sections for things like those openings under the ground floor windows or are those cut stone? Just curious.


 All the trim - everything from that which you describe, to windows, cornices, columns, and statuary - is carved stone. I think it's sandstone from Saxony.


----------



## Tiaren

Yep, everything is carved from stone, though not from Saxony but Silesia (Poland), where the sandstone for the original palace also came from.

Some nice views of the finished marvel:





































Source:
http://berliner-schloss.de/ueberzeugende-bilder/


----------



## marvelfannumber1

vothisau said:


> That modern side needs to be delt with, agreed. I normally 100% support anything modern but that is just horrible.
> To me the design looks too square and cold and doesn't go far enough to contrast the 'old' part of the design.
> What is needed is either nothing there at all or an 'open', mostly glazed design which uses materials that aren't assosiated with the origional building (e.g. glass and metal).


Or you know....this:










That works too.


----------



## JustinHerman

The above would be far nicer seen reflected in the Spree than what's there now. Perhaps someday....


----------



## Steve Gatlin

I read years ago that the Museum Island would have a central building (Simon Building?) where one could purchase tickets for the whole museum complex. It was also to be the starting point for a tunnel system from where one could move from one building to another without having to go outside. When I read this, it seemed to be in doubt because of the expense. My questions to anyone who might know: Will this system be built? If so, will the Humboldt Forum be linked to this system?


----------



## JustinHerman

Steve Gatlin said:


> I read years ago that the Museum Island would have a central building (Simon Building?) where one could purchase tickets for the whole museum complex. It was also to be the starting point for a tunnel system from where one could move from one building to another without having to go outside. When I read this, it seemed to be in doubt because of the expense. My questions to anyone who might know: Will this system be built? If so, will the Humboldt Forum be linked to this system?


 From what I understand, the James Simon Galerie would be a covered promenade connecting the four museums. It sounds like a splendid idea - until you look at the actual renditions. The structure resembles a 1960s airport terminal. Worse, it's thrown up like a concrete curtain, hiding from view the beautiful buildings it's designed to serve. Why? one wonders. Why on earth?


----------



## Tiaren

Steve Gatlin said:


> I read years ago that the Museum Island would have a central building (Simon Building?) where one could purchase tickets for the whole museum complex. It was also to be the starting point for a tunnel system from where one could move from one building to another without having to go outside. When I read this, it seemed to be in doubt because of the expense. My questions to anyone who might know: Will this system be built? If so, will the Humboldt Forum be linked to this system?


Let me clarify a bit, what JustinHerman already wrote.  The James Simon Galerie (named after one of Berlin's greatest pre-war patrons, who among other things presented the Bust of Nefertiti to the Egyptian collection) will become the entrance building and hub to all museums on Museum Island, as it is connected to each one with an underground promenade. This connection will make the Museum Island the largest museum complex in the world. Even larger than the Louvre. 



















Here in blue the underground promenade:









Yes, it will be very expensive and it will cost a lot of time, as the construction ground on Museum Island isn't the best for building. Like in Venice, all the buildings stand on poles in the morass.
And no, the building will not be build in the future...it *is* already under construction. Here some images from the German sub-forum:



noisrevid said:


> Bilder noch vom letzten Wochenende
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Bilder von mir_





noisrevid said:


> Nun scheints doch mal deutlicher voranzugehen (1.Mai)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Bild von mir_


Everything is supposed to be finished in 2025. So ten more years... :/


----------



## ThatOneGuy

^^ That modern colonnade is beautiful.


----------



## erbse

Yeah, at least it's hiding the hideous "modernist" facade of Neues Museum. David Chipperfield doesn't seem to like his own work. 









_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Neues_Museum_Berlin_EP1.JPG_


I'm still curious why on Earth they aren't connecting the Humboldt-Forum/City Palace with that tunnel.


----------



## Roman_P

robertwood said:


> Putin himself has personally stolen enough money to recreate any building the commies tore down.


But he'd better start with recreating buildings torn down in Russia. There is MUCH to do.
(and no, he has nothing to do with the Communist Party)


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Thank you Tiaren for your photos and information. The architect obviously didn't lose much sleep agonizing over how to make the building pretty. 

Erbse: I'm guessing the pedestrian tunnel can't be built to the palace because of the new U-Bahn tunnel.


----------



## Opulentus

Ah. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Regarding Portal III*

Prewar photographs of "Portal Three" show all three openings (or doors) in that entrance to be arched at the top. The current reconstruction has the tops of these openings squared off rather than arched. I can't help but wonder if the stone and brick work will take care of this or if the architects have something else in mind. Does anyone happen to know?


----------



## erbse

That drawing should make it clear:









http://berliner-schloss.de/spenden-system/spenden-portalansicht


Of course the arched gates will be restored!


----------



## JustinHerman

Looks can be deceiving. I think arched gates and spandrels will be built within the square openings on either side of the main gate.


----------



## Tiaren

Because some here inquired about the future surroundings of the Palace, here are renders of the winning design:





































by BBZ Landscape Architects

They are also campaigning to bring back the "Rossebändiger", which stood in front of the Palace:










Both are standing right now in park in Berlin. Here's one of them:









Another very important matter is the "Neptunbrunnen", that once stood on the south side of the Palace:










Right now it is to be found in front of the Berlin City Hall:

Neptunbrunnen by Michael, on Flickr

To be perfectly honest, I like it exactly where it is now...


----------



## Ludi

_Source: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/_


----------



## Somebody902

Concrete roof? Isn't it a bit much?


----------



## Tiaren

Somebody902 said:


> Concrete roof? Isn't it a bit much?


It will survive WWIII much better that way, than it's predecessor.


----------



## Ludi

*visiting - part 1*

oday it was so far as everything went smoothly , have been a bit short and not very informative , although a great deal. I was a bit surprised at the student assistants conduct there apparently the appointments .

Their expertise has been really partly insufficient and sometimes I could not help a correction .










south Side










Portal I - Schlüterhof










Portal I



















Portal V










Schlüterhof - modern part



















Passage from the castle Schlüterhof Forum / north-south passages










Portal V










Portal I - Schlüterhof southeastern corner










Portal II










Portal II - View in southeastern tract










Schlossforum / North-south passages










Looking through Portal IV to the Old Museum










Southwesterly EC Space



















Lobby ( south-west ) followed with a view into the great hall behind the portal III .










View from the great room to Schlüterhof










Great Hall , dome and internally Portal III









_my own pics, ©Ludi_


----------



## hp7960

Great photos Ludi


----------



## Ludi

*Part 2*

North-South Passage - window



















Again the middle section of the north-south passages to Schlüterhof










Portel IV 










concert Hall










Stairs at the North-South Passage










Again view from the 1st floor to the roof structure of the large hall










Room northwesterly tract 1st floor behind Portal III



















View from 1st floor towards the castle bridge and Zeughaus



















Blick von Portal IV durch Nord-Süd-Passage und Portal II in Breite Straße










View from Portal IV by north-south passage and Portal II in Breite Strasse



























my own pics, ©Ludi


----------



## Ludi

*part 3*

Portal V










Schlueterhof from first floor










Portal V 



















view fom Portal V, 1.floor to Schlueterhof



















View Lustgarten from first floor










Portal VI




























Portal V 









my own pics, ©Ludi


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Nice, the cladding is looking good. That modernist part will be a great foil to the rest of the classicism around it


----------



## Ludi

*part 4 - last one*

abload.de today abloads bad, sorry guys, normaly quality of pics is bether, but here last part anyway. 










eastside - view cityhall










Marienchurch, Fernsehturm und Cityhall



















Seen Portal VI from the east wing










View towards Karl-Liebknecht Bridge










Eckrondell










View from Eckrondell to Interior










eastside










Eckrondell










Underground car park entrance next to Eckrondell










Sandstone by Hofmann Naturstein



















view from Markgrafenstrasse










view from Friedrichstrasse Ecke Unter den Linden









my own pics, ©Ludi

That's it for now. In general, I was very excited and the dimensions are truly impressive . Small and lack of space felt not occurred to me and although we were able to enter only the EC and 1st floor .


----------



## JustinHerman

...and truly impressive photos. You were all over the palace like a bee. Thank you so much for the pictures; and for the incredible views not available through the Webcam.


----------



## hp7960

Great photos ! Thank you very much ! 
Does anyone know, why they put these vertical things (or cuts) under the thermal isolation ? (you can see it in the second photo).


----------



## Ludi

You mean at the concrete over the windows, right? ...good question. :dunno:


----------



## JustinHerman

I've wondered about the vertical cuts, too - both above and between the windows. While they were being grouted, I assumed they would have something to do with the brickwork. But, as you say, they're being covered over with insulation so the bricks don't even touch the grouted concrete.


----------



## JustinHerman

Perhaps this is the answer:


----------



## JustinHerman

Another possibility (and this seems most likely): Contraction Joints: These are vertical joints or grooves formed or cut into the wall that allows the concrete to shrink without noticeable harm. Contraction joints are usually about 0.25 inches wide and about 1/2 to 3/4 inch deep, and are provided at intervals of not exceeding 30 feet.


----------



## JustinHerman

The first carved stone lintel is up on the west façade.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Thanks for the Great Update Photos*

Ludi: Thank you so much for the great update photos. You are providing a level of detail concerning the palace reconstruction that most of us would never be able to see on our own. Please keep up the good work as you have time to do so.


----------



## Ludi

*day of the open construction field - 13 & 14. June*

advertised anywhere in the city...









_my own pic_

p.s.: at the westside next to Portal III / Eosander Portal you can see the completed sandstone windowsill.


----------



## Ludi

...


----------



## Ludi

*Steel ring with steel ribs of the cupola should be ready 12 June*

_On Wednesday morning at 8 clock a low loader brought the disassembled into two parts ton steel tires for castle construction site in the middle . In the afternoon, should the components of the steel ring, which later will carry the lantern , be balanced by a crane in 70m height . There builders should combine the undecorated tires on a purpose-built scaffolding . The project , however, was first placed . The steel ring with a diameter of approximately five meters is not only a key element in the lamp , but also forms the prerequisite for the steel ribs of the dome lock can be merged at the top .

" If everything goes as planned , we will have already used the topping-out ceremony on June 12, all the ribs ," said Bertold Just , head of Castle Bauhütte ._

_Source: Morgenpost_


----------



## FrancoJR

Thank you Tiaren! Great images! The eagle pillar would also be welcome. Hope they get to it some day.


----------



## Tiaren

The crown of the dome has been positioned today.


----------



## Ludi

two steel ribs of the cupola already are assembled lik you can see at the webcams. :cheers:


----------



## KlausDiggy

Quelle: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


----------



## albanyjd

There seems to be some work going on at the former Wilhelm II memorial site. are development plans proceeding?


----------



## erbse

What we know for the moment is, that archeological works continue at the *National Memorial site*. The approval procedure is delayed, the new memorial could be completed by 2017, at the earliest (German article). I just hope they scrap the current plan, because it's an	ill-conceived concept that isn't backed by the German people. Wrong location, wrong design.

I'd prefer a *timeless glassy	obelisk* in front of the Bundestag, with inscriptions of important positive data and values of Germany (9 CE - Teutoburg Battle, 900 first Emperor, 1648 Peace of Westphalia, 1848 German Revolution, 1871 Unification, 1919 Weimar Republic, 1949 BRD, 1951 Treaty of Paris - EU cornerstone, 1990 Re-Unification, "We are the People, We are one People", "Unity and Justice and Freedom", ...). It could be illuminated at night and signal dignity and consciousness, while also being elegant. At a height of 19,90m. It would be a testimonial to German maturity and deliberation. It'd also match the national forum and the Reichstag building; in contrast to the misplaced kitschy teeter-totter squeezed in front of the Palace.


----------



## Tiaren

erbse said:


> At a height of 19,90m.


How about a height of 199m or even 1990m? :drool:


----------



## socrates#1fan

erbse said:


> What we know for the moment is, that archeological works continue at the *National Memorial site*. The approval procedure is delayed, the new memorial could be completed by 2017, at the earliest (German article). I just hope they scrap the current plan, because it's an	ill-conceived concept that isn't backed by the German people. Wrong location, wrong design.
> 
> I'd prefer a *timeless glassy	obelisk* in front of the Bundestag, with inscriptions of important positive data and values of Germany (9 CE - Teutoburg Battle, 900 first Emperor, 1648 Peace of Westphalia, 1848 German Revolution, 1871 Unification, 1919 Weimar Republic, 1949 BRD, 1951 Treaty of Paris - EU cornerstone, 1990 Re-Unification, "We are the People, We are one People", "Unity and Justice and Freedom", ...). It could be illuminated at night and signal dignity and consciousness, while also being elegant. At a height of 19,90m. It would be a testimonial to German maturity and deliberation. It'd also match the national forum and the Reichstag building; in contrast to the misplaced kitschy teeter-totter squeezed in front of the Palace.


They should just rebuild the old National Kaiser Wilhelm Monument....


----------



## erbse

Of course they should! We've had lengthy debates in various forums and communities about this. Most people support reconstructing the colonnades and the Kaiser's base, but not with the Kaiser sitting on his horse. After all, it was dedicated to Wilhelm I., a somewhat involuntary emperor without great visions. The great statesman of early Germany was Otto von Bismarck.

There was a proposal with many regular "people" on the monument, symbolising the German people who re-united the country. I quite liked that idea, even though it's not so mature at the very moment when it comes to execution. Here's a drawing:









It's called "Entwurf 1435" (Design 1435), I forgot which artist created it, perhaps some Googling will do.


What I was suggesting with that glass obelisk is a Freedom & Unity Memorial at the feet of the German parliament, where once the Victory Column was standing. Like that:









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...al_Column,_Berlin,_Germany-LCCN2002713643.tif


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Denkmal*

I hope that the German government abandons plans for that horrible modernist "bomb fragment" monument that they have proposed putting up in place of the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal. The concept shown by Erbse is something that really deserves a second look.


----------



## Opulentus

^^

I agree. It would ruin the grandeur and elegance of the area. There's been enough modernist abominations snuck into this development already.


----------



## turtlebay

Brick work seems to have ground to a halt. Did they run out of money?


----------



## JustinHerman

I don't see it slowing down at all, Turtlebay. If anything, it's picked up speed over the past two weeks. The brickwork is quickly reaching the tops of the windows at the southwest corner, and new scaffolding is being erected on the south façade and extended along the sides of portal in the Schlueter Hof.


----------



## turtlebay

I just don't see guys on the scaffold. After the first lintel on the west façade hardly ever anyone, just a few down between portals I and II.


----------



## Ludi

*documentation made by Berlin Brandenburg TV (RBB)*

Very nice documentation about the construction works until now here. :cheers:


----------



## steppenwolf

can someone post a link to that project to build across the river in the Alt-Berlin area?


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Across the River*

Do I understand it correctly that the new building going up across the river from the west facade of the new Humboldt Forum is an apartment block or is that a commercial structure?


----------



## Autostädter

^ It's both. See these posts and this thread for it.


----------



## Ludi

*new stuff*

view from behind the "Staatsratsgebaeude" of the GDR.










View from "Breite Strasse"...










Staatsratsgebaeude / esm today and palace...










Southfacade Bamberger Naturstein company...



















the dome



















the other side of the Lustgarden










The Queen in town for some days...



















_my own pics, ©Ludi_


----------



## JustinHerman

Thank you so much, Ludi, for posting these, especially the close-up of the windows. The carved lintels are gorgeous!


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Schlüterhof*

Dhttp://cam04.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/oes the name "Schlüterhof" translate into English or is that area just named after someone?


----------



## FrancoJR

The western and southern facades are making progress. Do you think we might be seeing the entire western entrance arch by the end of 2015? 

Nothing at all on the northern facade?


----------



## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Dhttp://cam04.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/oes the name "Schlüterhof" translate into English or is that area just named after someone?


It's named after Andreas Schlüter, it's architect:



















Translated to English it would be called "Schlüter Court".

How it will look in the future:






























FrancoJR said:


> The western and southern facades are making progress. Do you think we might be seeing the entire western entrance arch by the end of 2015?
> 
> Nothing at all on the northern facade?


Nope. Don't have the official graphic right now, but at the end of this year they plan to be finished with only the ground floor and first floor of the three baroque facades.


----------



## Ludi

And some more new stuff...














































_Source: http://berliner-schloss.de/neues-schloss-humboldt-forum/neue-bilder-berlin-2019/_


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## Opulentus

It's a brilliant building. But I still can't help but feel utterly repulsed when I take so much as a glance at the modernist abomination on the end. It seems like such an affront to an otherwise beautiful structure.


----------



## hp7960

^^
Look what I found : 

Design for an expansion of the Berlin Stadtschloss, 1887. Germany.


----------



## Tiaren

hp7960 said:


> ^^
> Look what I found :
> 
> Design for an expansion of the Berlin Stadtschloss, 1887. Germany.


Looks extremely similar to Hamburg City Hall, just without the middle tower:

Rathaus by Nordpirat, on Flickr


----------



## FilP

I love Berlin.


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Opulentus said:


> It's a brilliant building. But I still can't help but feel utterly repulsed when I take so much as a glance at the modernist abomination on the end. It seems like such an affront to an otherwise beautiful structure.


The modern extension provides a nice contrast. No need to act so stuck-up about it, be glad you're getting this rebuilt in the first place.


----------



## pesto

Opulentus said:


> It's a brilliant building. But I still can't help but feel utterly repulsed when I take so much as a glance at the modernist abomination on the end. It seems like such an affront to an otherwise beautiful structure.


How can you say that? Look at the attention to artistic technique and detail; the statement of a complex yet subtle worldview and assertion that man can create, learn, explore and attain an understanding of truth and beauty, or at least will sacrifice all he has to do so.

:lol:


----------



## hateman

The modernist facade will serve as a vivid example of how lifeless and sterile modern architecture is compared to the traditional facades, making the argument for restoring the building by its existence.


----------



## ThatOneGuy

It's not lifeless nor sterile.


----------



## steppenwolf

hateman said:


> The modernist facade will serve as a vivid example of how lifeless and sterile modern architecture is compared to the traditional facades, making the argument for restoring the building by its existence.


You may not have noticed, but at some point in the mid 20th Century people started to appreciate simplicity in design - they found that all kinds of designs from buildings to furniture were very beautiful and peaceful when they weren't covbered in superfluous ornamentation, frills and symbols related to the past, historic prioriities, unpleasant memories and regrettable power structures.

Now, this movement has become mainstream - most people keep their homes in this simple elegant style and most buildings try to be simple, rigorous, and calm - and beauty can be found in that simplicity. 

Yes, frills and decoration and nostalgia still appeat to people, especially when it is authentic and originates from a time when those things mattered and were viewed differently - historic cities, antiques etc. However, when we mimic those styles today, it is often seen as inauthentic - we also aren't very good at it because we don't understand it anymore.

So I think that the moden end of the Schloss will be beautiful to many people and will remind them that this castle is a totally new building constructed in the era where that kind of design means something.


----------



## Titan Man

I think the modern side of the castle is plain, but I don't think it's something bad. Imagine a deconstructivist montrosity in its place, that would be quite disturbing. This side of the castle is quiet, unnoticeable and it probably won't bring disharmony to the whole building. So, be happy, 'cause God knows what would, for instance, Frank Gehry build on that side. :cheers:


----------



## Ludi

noisrevid said:


>


_©SSC-User noisrevid_


----------



## albanyjd

It appears that work is beginning on the second floor of the south facade.


----------



## steppenwolf

keepthepast said:


> The good news is that the characterless, sterile eastern facade is a 'blank slate'. At some point, when the common belief realizes how abundantly silly the 'new Berlin Wall' looks as part of this historic complex, it will be easy to add the appropriate surfaces. Right now, the unfinished structural concrete walls on the north, west and south look like the east will in its finished state. Soon the baroque outer elements will be added...just like they could on the east side in due course.


Keeping the past, as per your username is often the right thing to do - but making fake imitations of the past out of concrete then clad with decoration is a totally different thing. Arguably it devalues genuine heritage because you can't tell from looking at a building if it is authentic or not. It also suggests that we can demolish old buildings and then just rebuild copies if we change our minds. 

I think what you're really intersted in is the aesthetic of older buildings - which is a personal stylistic preference, but can't be a philosophical approach to the built environment. I felt the same when I was about 16 and before I studied architecture and urban design. If you want to see what happens when we try to build in a historic style today, look no further than the terrible embarrassing Skopje 2014 project.


----------



## steppenwolf

Titan Man said:


> I really don't understand what's so bad about that side being boring and too simple. I don't like it either, but at least it will be unnoticeable and it probably won't ruin other three sides of the palace. Sure, the best thing they could've done was to reconstruct the palace in its old glory, but since that didn't happen, it's better to have something that's not invasive and that won't bring disharmony. In the future we can just tear down that part and rebuilt it as it was since reconstructions are proving to be more popular than ever (Dresden, Braunschweig, Potsdam, Berlin, etc.)


The problem with reconstructions is that they are inauthentic. They have no historic qualities - they aren't built out of traditional materials, they lack the characterful imperfections of the original, they lack the meaning. And you can't tell what buildings are old or what buildings are new in many German and Polish cities. In the UK the prevailing approach to heritage is to preserve what remains but build new buildings in a contemporary style - so when you walk around a city you know that an old style building is genuinely old. The cities are messy but honest and authentic. 

So again, I'm in favour of this modern facade - it could be a lot better of course, but the idea of building it in a baroque style is grotesque


----------



## keepthepast

ThatOneGuy said:


> I'm not a "modernist". I equally support all architectural styles. Unlike most classicists, I don't reject styles I dislike as inherently inferior.
> 
> The finish quality is the most important thing to look for.


I think this is a bit unfair. Classicists don't categorically reject styles they dislike as inherently inferior. Rather, we reject the carte blanche expected and forced modernist/internationalist approach to nearly every architectural project, renovation, and reconstruction. Classicists are allegiant to historic value and accuracy and recognize that the tone and character of a location has its roots in its notable architectural history. We are the ones who seek some diversity on the cityscapes across the globe rather than settle for the consistently applied glass and steel frame look.


----------



## Tiaren

steppenwolf said:


> The problem with reconstructions is that they are inauthentic. They have no historic qualities - they aren't built out of traditional materials, they lack the characterful imperfections of the original, they lack the meaning. And you can't tell what buildings are old or what buildings are new in many German and Polish cities.


I don't see a "problem" at all there. They are "inauthentic"...so what? They don't use the "traditional materials"...so what? You can't really tell old from new...*so what???* Seriously, who cares, as long as they are solid buildings you can visit, work or live in and most importantly, they are nice to the eye. I (and millions of others) prefer an "inauthentic" beautiful building to an authentic ugly box, that could stand anywhere in the world.

By the way, regarding the "characterful imperfections", these are all recreated with the new facades of the City Palace. It's still asymmetrical and slightly bent and crooked and modern day workers will add their own imperfections. It's not as if the facades are completely build by robots nowadays. Germany is advanced, but not that advanced. XD

Non-robots doing characterful imperfect work for the new City Palace:


----------



## White Light

In his book Last Chance to See, Douglas Adams observed:









The Golden Pavilion in the 21st century.
I remembered once, in Japan, having been to see the Gold Pavilion Temple in Kyoto and being mildly surprised at quite how well it had weathered the passage of time since it was first built in the fourteenth century. I was told it hadn't weathered well at all, and had in fact been burnt to the ground twice in this century. "So it isn't the original building?" I had asked my Japanese guide.
"But yes, of course it is," he insisted, rather surprised at my question.
"But it's burnt down?"
"Yes."
"Twice."
"Many times."
"And rebuilt."
"Of course. It is an important and historic building."
"With completely new materials."
"But of course. It was burnt down."
"So how can it be the same building?"
"It is always the same building."

I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.

—Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See, p. 149


----------



## steppenwolf

I concede. Rebuilding lost buildings can be fine. In fact it can be excellent. What style new buildings are built in is just a matter of taste and fashion.

Thankfully we have a balance in society which prevents any one point of view ever completely dominating. That's why we have complex and varied cities that reflect everyone. 

I do believe though that you can't recreate the past. Old buildings can support very different uses and more variety than a modern reproduction in the same style. The centre of Dresden will never be as multi-layered and complex as it once was because the human variety than inhabited the previous city has been replaced by a simpler more ordered kind that can afford the rents of brand new buildings.


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## Tiaren

Other reconstructions (that you might recognize) :

Campanile, Venice by Gill Cocks, on Flickr

The White House by Daniel Reidel, on Flickr

Windsor Castle, Berkshire, from the Long Walk by Jack Pease, on Flickr

Paris : Hôtel de Ville / Town-hall 2/2 by François de Nodrest / Pantchoa, on Flickr

Osaka Castle. Walking towards the castle. by WH Low, on Flickr

I don't see anyone complaining about these...


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## Titan Man

The meaning of a building is not its material, but its design. You don't experience a building through concrete, windows and bricks, but through its look and contribution to the city. That's why I think reconstructions like those in Dresden or Warsaw are "authentic". Parts of those buildings that are visible from the street look the same as of those destroyed buildings. Interior and inner courtyards are (mainly) not important because random people that are walking down the streets can't see them, and, after all, if they had survived, someone would've changed them by now. I know that majority won't agree with me, but that is how I see reconstructed buildings like those. I see them as authentic.

Off topic, I saw a picture from the construction site of Skopje 2014 where they were literally gluing ornaments. So yes, the project is disturbingly stupid. :nuts:


----------



## Opulentus

Some of Skopje 2014 doesn't look too bad in my opinion.


----------



## hateman

When confronted with people uncomfortable with these reconstructions, it's important to reassure them that they're only anxious and afraid of them because they're new. In time they'll (re)gain their place in everyday life. So it's worth telling those of you not to fear and misunderstand this building because it's new. You'll understand and accept it and others in time. 

It's understandable that they've grown used to glass boxes and raw concrete forms, because that's what they've grown up with and have been told is what is true, right, and authentic. Unfortunately, as with life, architecture is much more complicated than that. All constructed environments involve a degree of artifice. Whether this is "phoniness" or not depends on what is emphasized or dissected. 

But to merely reject this reconstruction on the grounds that its style out of step with the dominant/accepted precepts and values of our times is a truly backward way of thinking, very un-modern.


----------



## socrates#1fan

steppenwolf said:


> The problem with reconstructions is that they are inauthentic. They have no historic qualities - they aren't built out of traditional materials, they lack the characterful imperfections of the original, they lack the meaning. And you can't tell what buildings are old or what buildings are new in many German and Polish cities. In the UK the prevailing approach to heritage is to preserve what remains but build new buildings in a contemporary style - so when you walk around a city you know that an old style building is genuinely old. The cities are messy but honest and authentic.
> 
> So again, I'm in favour of this modern facade - it could be a lot better of course, but the idea of building it in a baroque style is grotesque



People didn't construct these buildings with imperfections or "being historic" in mind. They built them with the goal of making them as perfect as possible. Do you think modern buildings are flawless and without human error? Those qualities happen over time or by accident. Modernists have a strange disney-esque view of the past. 

It has to be new at some point if it is ever going to be old.


----------



## storms991

Tiaren said:


> So, did Franco Stella emulate the PdR in all his other works as well?
> 
> They are all "minimalist" with "sharp angles" with a nod to neoclassicism. It's just Stella's stylistic. You are reading way too much into it.


With every additional photo, you're giving me more and more ideas regarding the symbolism inherent in the building. There's a chance that the juxtaposition of modern & baroque actually symbolizes reconciliation between East & West Germany, or better yet, the country's acceptance of its own history. 

While I do agree that baroque facades on all sides of the building is preferable, understanding, or attempting to understand the rationale behind the design's selection and the architects inspiration has allowed me to appreciate this building much more. 

Overall, I do see a general backlash against the modernist facade on this forum. We should instead consider ourselves lucky with this design. This building will become the centerpiece of Berlin - the committee that selected it most definitely had good reasons for doing so.


----------



## Gadjowsky

Opulentus said:


> Some of Skopje 2014 doesn't look too bad in my opinion.


 You are joking right? I live in Skopje. None of that is authentic, all the decorations are terribly crafted and even more terribly applied to the facades. It will all disintegrate very soon. To my biggest surprise Berlin's authorities use the same populistic approach to architecture as our architecturally and artistically illiterate politicians. 

As an architect I have to say that I am very disappointed by the decision for reconstruction of this building. Last time I was there this place was just a empty plane and this is what I least expected. Berlin's modernist facades and buildings are the cleanest and the neatest in the world, a walk in Berlin is like peeking into a model town. They could have done something more german, not this Paris-wannabe giant thing (and we all know who wanted to copy Paris, not to mention names).

I still love Berlin, a great town, can't wait to go back again.


----------



## Titan Man

Gadjowsky said:


> You are joking right? I live in Skopje. None of that is authentic, all the decorations are terribly crafted and even more terribly applied to the facades. It will all disintegrate very soon. To my biggest surprise Berlin's authorities use the same populistic approach to architecture as our architecturally and artistically illiterate politicians.
> 
> As an architect I have to say that I am very disappointed by the decision for reconstruction of this building. Last time I was there this place was just a empty plane and this is what I least expected. Berlin's modernist facades and buildings are the cleanest and the neatest in the world, a walk in Berlin is like peeking into a model town. They could have done something more german, not this Paris-wannabe giant thing (and we all know who wanted to copy Paris, not to mention names).
> 
> I still love Berlin, a great town, can't wait to go back again.


How can you even compare Skopje and Berlin?! Berlin is RECONSTRUCTING a palace which was there for 400 years. Skopje is making some mish-mash buildings of questionable quality. Also, it's obvious why Berlin will never be Paris. It's full of cheap, postwar architecture which doesn't have a sense for beauty and surroundings. Even the recent developments like Potsdamer Platz are not something special or noticeable. Berlin had a major opportunity to become a capital of modernity, but it unbelievably failed on a massive scale. So yes, it is a model of modernist architecture but I don't think it is a good thing because those buildings are not really that special and world-renowned.

P.S. I am not a hater of contemporary architecture. I like glassy buildings, but only if they are not destroying historical neighbourhoods, if they are not built on a place of an old beauty and if they are not plain and boring.


----------



## albanyjd

Tiaren said:


> I don't see a "problem" at all there. They are "inauthentic"...so what? They don't use the "traditional materials"...so what? You can't really tell old from new...*so what???* Seriously, who cares, as long as they are solid buildings you can visit, work or live in and most importantly, they are nice to the eye. I (and millions of others) prefer an "inauthentic" beautiful building to an authentic ugly box, that could stand anywhere in the world.
> 
> By the way, regarding the "characterful imperfections", these are all recreated with the new facades of the City Palace. It's still asymmetrical and slightly bent and crooked and modern day workers will add their own imperfections. It's not as if the facades are completely build by robots nowadays. Germany is advanced, but not that advanced. XD
> 
> Non-robots doing characterful imperfect work for the new City Palace:


----------



## albanyjd

Is there a plan to incorporate any surviving parts of the Palace? I think that was well accomplished with the Frauenkirche in Dresden.


----------



## Gadjowsky

Titan Man said:


> How can you even *compare Skopje and Berlin?!* Berlin is RECONSTRUCTING a palace which was there for 400 years. Skopje is making some mish-mash buildings of questionable quality.


 I agree about Skopje, like I said before - It's a terrible, terrible move. I do not compare the cities, but the populism that the politicians use in both cases....never mind.


----------



## Titan Man

Gadjowsky said:


> I agree about Skopje, like I said before - It's a terrible, terrible move. I do not compare the cities, but the populism that the politicians use in both cases....never mind.


I don't think the populism of the politicians is comparable. Macedonian politicians want to create national identity and recreate history, whereas German politicians are just restoring the very symbol of the capital, its palace, which was destroyed in an unnecesary war.


----------



## marvelfannumber1

storms991 said:


> Overall, I do see a general backlash against the modernist facade on this forum. We should instead consider ourselves lucky with this design. This building will become the centerpiece of Berlin - the committee that selected it most definitely had good reasons for doing so.


I will agree with you on this. I mean for all the crap I give the modern facade/interior, this project could have been MUCH worse.

I mean they could have easily done something similar that garbage hack job they did with the Reichstag. Where instead of rebuilding the iconic dome they just make some plastic, uncontextual, modernist garbage and instead of remaking the gorgeus ornamentation they just leave the building naked an plain looking.


----------



## FrancoJR

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - &quot;Humboldt-Forum&quot; | U/C*

Is that the cupola structure showing inside the dome ribs? Could it be it will be put in place through the drum?

photo by FranciscoJ2008, on Flickr

From: http://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


----------



## FrancoJR

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - &quot;Humboldt-Forum&quot; | U/C*

Sorry, I just realized it's the cathedral's cross. My mistake. Guess it was wishful thinking.


----------



## Tiaren

Are you talking about the lantern topping the dome? 










The lantern is not financed so far. Only the dome and the cross are fully financed. So, it might take some time (maybe a few years) until the lantern will be placed on top of the dome. But I'm sure, it will be there in 2019, when the City Palace/Humboldt Forum opens.


----------



## FrancoJR

Yes, the lantern, that's what I meant. It is quite elaborate! Do you know if it will be all gilt bronze? 










berliner-schloss.de


----------



## Tiaren

Yes, it is going to be gilded...if it will be financed that is...


----------



## Ludi

View from Bodemuseum...



ovaron said:


> Mein Bild


_©SSC-User ovaron_


----------



## Ludi

But its ©, you know, right?


----------



## Ludi

View from Siegessaeule (Victorycolumn), Tiergarten



Alumann said:


>


_©SSC-USer Alumann_


----------



## Ludi

© bildfritze









© cmkwallis


----------



## robertwood

??


----------



## Opulentus

^^

It's spam.


----------



## Yellow Fever

spammers banned and deleted. To make our job easier, please don't respond to spammers posts, just report them, thank you!


----------



## Ludi

Portal II




























_my own pics, ©Ludi_


----------



## Kleist D

Blick vom Alten Museum


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr

ein weiteres Motiv der Ostseite


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr

Blick aus Richtung Südosten / Rathausstraße


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr

Die Krähen mögen das Schloß, sie haben sich massenhaft auf dem Dach und den Baukränen niedergelassen und sind nicht zu überhören.


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr


Neubau Humboldtforum / Stadtschloß by Kleist Berlin, auf Flickr

eigene Bilder, gemeinfrei


----------



## Ludi

_my own pic, ©Ludi_


----------



## MojoRisin123

Amazing, will have to pay any ticket to visit the palace? or maybe will be inside the price of the rest of museums of the island?


----------



## Ludi

You mean after 2019? Dont know yet, but I think you will have to pay extra.


----------



## Ludi

_my own pics, ©Ludi_


----------



## Ludi

_my own pics_


----------



## Photodash

FrancoJR said:


> Yes, the lantern, that's what I meant. It is quite elaborate! Do you know if it will be all gilt bronze?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> berliner-schloss.de


Why has it got a cross on it? It's not a church...


----------



## Tiaren

Photodash said:


> Why has it got a cross on it? It's not a church...


*Doctrine of Divine Right/Divine Right of Kings*, google it.  Also, the room under the dome was actually a chapel.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Exterior Finish*

Will the non-stone exterior walls of the Stadtschloss be covered with stucco or left as brick? If brick, will they be painted? Photos of the original structure make it look like the exterior walls were a beige color that looks like stucco in the photos.


----------



## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Will the non-stone exterior walls of the Stadtschloss be covered with stucco or left as brick? If brick, will they be painted? Photos of the original structure make it look like the exterior walls were a beige color that looks like stucco in the photos.


Neither stucco nor painted brick. It will be plastered and then painted, very likely in beige whereas the stone parts stay untouched.


----------



## socrates#1fan

Tiaren said:


> *Doctrine of Divine Right/Divine Right of Kings*, google it.  Also, the room under the dome was actually a chapel.


Please tell me they will rebuild the chapel!


----------



## Opulentus

^^

Unfortunately, I believe they've opted for a modern interior for some peculiar reason.


----------



## Stanford White

I'm still in awe that this is actually happening! it's stunning. The craftsmanship gives me such hope for other buildings/cities! maybe the art of masonry ISNT dead!


----------



## Tiaren

Stanford White said:


> The craftsmanship gives me such hope for other buildings/cities! maybe the art of masonry ISNT dead!


On a technical level as well as on an artistical level the masonry and sculpting will be on par with the baroque original. For over a decade experts and artists have been researching, studying and practicing to come as close to the original as possible. (Even the stone comes from the exact same stone quarries as 300 years ago) Each ornament is created four times: In the computer, then in clay, then gypsum and finally, if everything is right, in stone.


----------



## socrates#1fan

Opulentus said:


> ^^
> 
> Unfortunately, I believe they've opted for a modern interior for some peculiar reason.


Why? Was it costs?


----------



## Opulentus

Yeah. I'm pretty sure that all of the interiors are going to be constructed in a modern style. They only raised enough money to construct three out of four façades, hence why there's that far more dull one facing the Spree.


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## Tiaren

Opulentus said:


> Yeah. I'm pretty sure that all of the interiors are going to be constructed in a modern style. They only raised enough money to construct three out of four façades, hence why there's that far more dull one facing the Spree.


Please don't spread half-truths, if you don't know for sure. 

There was actually never the intention to rebuild the City Palace as the City Palace (with all it's interiors and facades). What is being build right now is the Humboldt Forum, a modern convention center and museum complex, but clad with the three baroque facades of the City Palace. A long time it wasn't even clear, if these three facades would come back, as some modernists highly objected against it. It was a two decades long and hard battle! So, the old interiors were not considered, because there was no money, but because all space was from the beginning intended to be used for conventions and museum exhibits.
There is however still the chance, to rebuild some of the interiors in the future. For example the "Gigantentreppe":










This historic staircase will now be occupied by the lapidariu, in which some remnants of the original baroque facade will be showcased. So not much of the actual convention and museum space would be affected, if the lapidariu would cease to exist. After the facade has been completely paid by donations, this will be the first historic interior, that they might consider bringing back. *Might* consider! I have the feeling, this once again will be a hard and long battle against the modernists.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*The Fourth Side*

Keep in mind that there never was a uniform baroque fourth side of the stadtschloss but rather a mixture of odds and ends of earlier structures. Personally, I would have just carried the architecture of the other three sides on around the fourth side. However, there are those purists who object to mixing original and new parts of a building and making them appear to be one seamless whole. Most likely, that viewpoint won out in the end.


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## Titan Man

I read somewhere that the interior of the Palace can be rebuilt. Not everything, but a big part of it. I can see it happening in the future since the public will probably LOVE the finished product in 2019, so they will want more. :cheers:


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## Ulpia-Serdica

Germany's biggest cultural building project is taking shape near Berlin's Museum Island. Those in charge of it hope to avoid the skyrocketing costs and postponed deadlines that have plagued other prestige projects such as the new Berlin airport.


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## Ludi

© qualifier


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## Tiaren

Ludi, the pics you are sometimes posting by this "qualifier", where do you get them from? Is there any chance, that guy can do pictures without always adding those horrible image quality destroying filters? Is he posting them on Instagram, lol?


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## Ludi

You should ask him.


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## dodo00

*Floorplan*

There's a lothians blog called * A Virtual Tour of the Berlin Royal Palace State Apartments [Berliner Stadtschloss] * that shows all the state apartments and gives a high res floor plan, for those of you that havent read it yet


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## dodo00

I also have a layout that shows all the additions, their dates, and their architects, but i cant post it cause i dont have 10 posts yet


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## dodo00

*Interiors*

Even better, I can't post links, but look up historisches stadschloss and click on the first link, then click on old palace or new palace and there's tons of info on old rooms (even more obscure ones) if you haven't seen it already.


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## cilindr0

Well in 7 posts you will be able to


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## Tiaren

^^
You noticed all these minor details yet didn't realize, that the top of Eosander Portal is completely different, to what is being build right now?
In the late 19th century, when the houses opposite of the palace were torn down and replaced by the national monument, the west facade got a complete facelift (and the photo you are looking at was taken before that). For that reason you might notice some changes here and there. The now reconstructed palace will have the appearance, that it had prior to WWII, with all the changes made in the 19th century. It's seen as the most complete and most coherent version of the palace, a building, that was built on for centuries and that was never really finished.


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## dodo00

Thanks for clarifying a bit, but looking at demolition photos, the chamfer window was still there along with the stairs to the dome, one picture of which I posted two pages ago. Also, I looked it up, and in pictures with the curved pediment above the eosander portal, all mezzanine windows are still in place. I also discovered that there was a stage after the demolition of the houses where a crest had been added, but the curved pediment was not yet installed. Interesting! Still at the very least the omission of the right 4th floor chamfer window will continue to bug me.
EDIT I found later pictures where the mezzanine windows are gone, turns out you were right about that part!
http://www.laits.utexas.edu/berlin/images/buildings/03UnderDenLinden/c130_Stadtschloss.jpg
Here's a picture from after the war where the chamfer window can clearly be seen, though
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...-09128-0005,_Berlin,_Stadtschloss,_Abriss.jpg


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## GBguy23

Hi everyone, out of curiosity...do they ever plan on reconstructing the old city center of Berlin like they have in Warsaw?


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## erbse

^ Well, it's sort of discussed currently what to do with the core old town quarters of Berlin. 

Go to this thread: *BERLIN | Marx-Engels-Forum, Marien Quarter and Molkenmarket (historical center) - Redevelopment*


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Restoration of the "Old City Center"*

It would help if you defined the "Old City Center" of Berlin. Unlike Warsaw and a number of other European cities, Berlin does not have a central square or market place around which the city grew up over the centuries that had come down to us only to be destroyed or heavily damaged in World War II. To me, Berlin is more the place where a number of historic buildings and sites that are scattered over the urban landscape have either been restored or rebuilt or are lost forever.


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## Tiaren

GBguy23 said:


> Hi everyone, out of curiosity...do they ever plan on reconstructing the old city center of Berlin like they have in Warsaw?



Well, it depends on what you would call "old city center". Berlin actually did reconstruct a good chunk of it's 17th/18th/19th century city center along Unter den Linden and on Museumisland. Everything you see here in blue is either preserved or has been reconstructed or will be reconstructed in the near future:










It's a fairly large space, definitely comparable to Warsaw's rather small old town.

Here's a view towards the Palace in 2019:



















The red parts on the map once was the medieval old town of Berlin. But by the 20th century it was already overbuild by buildings that dated from the 17th/18th/19th century, so not really older than the area around Unter den Linden.


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## erbse

But lots inside old town quarters were usually smaller and it all felt more old-town-like.

Parts of that were reconstructed too, and mingled together. For instance at Märkisches Ufer and at *Nikolaiviertel*, some odd GDR attempt at reconstructions and postmodern chunks. Neighbouring Molkenmarkt and Marienviertel areas will be especially relevant in the years to come.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Regarding "Old City Center"*

I think that Tiaren is making my point for me. He is showing a rather large area that has already either been restored or rebuilt and it doesn't revolve around a central point like in Warsaw. As a result, I 'm not following what you now feel that they ought to either restore or rebuild. Unless you are suggesting that they move on to other neighborhoods, the impression is left (with me at least) that that ship has sailed. Of course, I welcome the chance to learn otherwise.


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## erbse

Pardon me, what exactly are you saying? That you think there's no chance for further reconstructions? The vital old town areas across the City Palace won't offer that much potential for reconstructions (instead new classical experiments could be vitally successful), but there could be some model buildings that will see their comeback, similar to what happened at Nikolai quarter.


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## Titan Man

The perfect solution for me would be a complete reconstruction of the historical old town. It would bring Berlin's identity back, it would create a small and cozy neighbourhood for Berliners and their guests and it would be a good counterpart to Berlin City Castle and the Museum Island. The rest of Berlin should see the return of the original street plan, but with combination of awesome contemporary architecture and beautiful revivalism of historical styles that's been popular in the city in the last years.


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## Ludi

"Historical City Center"..., dont forget, Berlin incorporated lot of other citys before and they all have own historical centers too. 
So Köpenick, Spandau, Pankow, Wilmersdorf, Charlottenburg, etc. also have historical centers, but the center of Prussian Berlin as a matter of fact was the Museum Island and Unter den Linden. The Kurfürstendamm, Hohenzollerndamm, Kaiserdamm( Western City) and Potsdam of course have been important in Prussian times too.


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## erbse

When this notion is made, usually the oldest parts of the city are referred to.
And that's, by all means, the medieval heart of Berlin around St. Nikolai, St. Marien and former St. Petri (including parts of the royal palace).


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## Titan Man

erbse said:


> When this notion is made, usually the oldest parts of the city are referred to.
> And that's, by all means, the medieval heart of Berlin around St. Nikolai, St. Marien and former St. Petri (including parts of the royal palace).


That's the area I was referring to. It's crucial for Berlin to reconstruct, or at least to restore the street plan of that part of the city. Then Berlin will become a truly fantastic city, with narrow, old streets of Old Berlin, beautiful highrises of Potsdamer Platz and almost classical buildings that are being built all around the city. :banana:


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## Ludi

historical lanterns coming back too...


















































































_my own pics, ©Ludi_


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## JustinHerman

Great close-ups of construction progress and window details, and awesome news about the street lamps. Are they original, or are they being newly cast? Either way wouldn't matter if they're cast iron; what matters is the appearance they lend to the neighborhood. Downright astonishing, really.

P.S. Ludi, could you please post another link to the webcam? I'm having to go all the way back to Page 62 for the most recent link.


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## erbse

Actually it's sufficient to google "Schloss webcam", but here you go.  

* http://cam03.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/
*


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## Urbanmusician

Do some people really think, that putting cross at top of the dome is "offensive"? :cripes:


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## Urbanmusician

Ludi said:


> "Historical City Center"..., dont forget, Berlin incorporated lot of other citys before and they all have own historical centers too.
> So Köpenick, Spandau, Pankow, Wilmersdorf, Charlottenburg, etc. also have historical centers, but the center of Prussian Berlin as a matter of fact was the Museum Island and Unter den Linden. The Kurfürstendamm, Hohenzollerndamm, Kaiserdamm( Western City) and Potsdam of course have been important in Prussian times too.


That's what I like about Berlin. As it has multiple city centers. -Alexanderplatz, Mitte, Ku'ddam, Potsdamer Platz. + The many smaller centers.


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## Ludi




----------



## Guest

Ludi said:


>


I love me an aerial.. but yikes, the building doesn't even look centered/paralleled to the lot…????


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## Tiaren

kaiserad said:


> I love me an aerial.. but yikes, the building doesn't even look centered/paralleled to the lot…????


Yikes, the stupid drive by comments in this thread sometimes...
Anyway, welcome to Europe, where centuries old cities, their buildings, streets and squares are asymmetrical, bent and crooked.


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## dodo00

Does anybody know if the palace is being rebuilt at exactly the same elevation? I worry sometimes whether it's being rebuilt at its original relative height to surroundings, or to the modern street level. And are the original foundations being used? They probably had to destroy some original foundation to plant I-beams on if its to the original footprint...


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## JustinHerman

The elevation of the reconstructed building appears to be identical to that of the original. And, judging from photos early in this thread and elsewhere, the original foundations are gone. The entire foundation and the cellar structure appear to have been left intact, filled, and covered over when the original palace was blown up. The eastern portion would have been entirely destroyed during construction of the modern Palast der Republik, with the western segment left undisturbed beneath the grass covered ground. Photos show the western portion of the foundation and the cellars unearthed in preparation of construction of the new palace. The cellars seem to be remarkably intact, with stairwells, arched doorways, and tile-covered floors. The foundation and much of the cellars were bulldozed, but a sizeable portion of the cellars were left intact and preserved beneath the new building.


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## erbse

Aerial of the Stadtschloss:









_© kaeferprofi_


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## Nando_ros

*Festival of Lights 2015*


FOL 2015- New Berliner Stadtschloss by wirdsbald, en Flickr


Festival Of Lights: Berliner Stadtschloss by Michael Krolop, en Flickr


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## JustinHerman

The above brought an instant smile to my face. How clever, delightful, and hauntingly eerie at the same time.


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## Ludi

Nice! But it will look 10 times bether in real for sure. :colgate:


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## erbse

Or even better! Berlin FoL turns out great again. 


Historical interiors:


Ludi said:


> And some historical pics too.
> 
> "Rittersaal" / Hall of Knights
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Schwarze-Adler-Kammer" / black eagle chamber
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> palace chapel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Source: TU Architektur Museum_


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## Titan Man

The interiors were absolutely spectacular and the Palace was one of the most beautiful royal palaces in the world. I can't believe that someone would purposely destroy such a beautiful building. I hope that one day we will see the reconstruction of at least some parts of the interior, as God knows how expensive the whole interior would be to reconstruct. :cheers:


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## MDRB

Communists. They would and they did.


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## Ludi

Festival of lights - Lustgarten



kil_o said:


>


©SSC-User kil_o


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## MDRB

Hello guys, I found a video of the schloss in YouTube. Nicely done really 
http://youtu.be/gT9kJeBPFl8


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## RegentHouse

Question: Is the reconstruction with concrete faithful to the original? I understand concrete technology was "rediscovered" around the time the original was built.


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## The Eagle

Question: Is the reconstruction with concrete faithful to the original? I understand concrete technology was "rediscovered" around the time the original was built



The Eagle said:


> I like to quote myself. The original had no concrete
> 
> About the concrete: You know how Germans are. Always trying to top things. In this case they are not just rebuilding, no they are also building an ultra low energy consumption building. They put up a concrete shell, on top isolation and on top of that real self standing brick. The thickness of that wall is the very same as of the original. In order to add the isolation they replaced half of the thick brick wall with concrete! There was some debate over it as you can imagine! Some wanted to use hollow ziegel, like the rest of town uses it. You don`t need isolation if you use those ziegel. But because the wall would not contain any brick ziegel at all, they decided to go half old way, half new.
> Now the building uses only 5%!!! of the heating than the old one would have! Because they also going to add an in ground heating/cooling system. Water get`s pumped down hunderts of meters into the ground and back up.


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## JustinHerman

It has been fascinating watching a palace being reconstructed using modern methods. I've read that, in original construction centuries ago, the amount of brick used required a wait of 3 or 4 years for the superstructure to dry out before plaster, stucco, and other finished touches could be added.


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## RegentHouse

I suppose it also gives the architects justification to the modern wing facing the river. Regardless, you'll have some authenticity elitists bitching about the whole palace being built out of concrete with a modern interior. It's better than nothing, and while the Palace of the Republic was one of the better East German buildings (along with the TV Tower which complemented it), it was shoddy construction and represented a regime worse than the Prussians and Nazis combined.

The idea of "authenticity" reminds me of in Japan, where castles were rebuilt with concrete after Word War II, despite many being destroyed decades or even centuries before the bombings. Concrete was cheaper and quicker to build with, and the technology to make wood stronger at the time was nonexistent. Also, Western zoning laws enacted since the Meiji Era prohibited wooden structures so tall.


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## dodo00

You're not saying that energy conservation justifies the ugly new spree facade, are you? If those insulation methods work on the rest of the palace, they'd work on the original spree facade as well.

Also, the reconstructed Japanese castles don't have hideous modernist walls integrated into their beautiful design, do they?


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## autool

Very nice


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## autool

Nice nice


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Stadtschloss Interiors*

Were the main rooms of the Stadtschloss redecorated sometime in the late 19th century? The vintage photos show rooms that are wildly over ornamented in what I would take to be high Victorian style. At best, there appears to be little from the baroque era reflected in the photos.


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## dodo00

I think most of the paradekammern as they were called were baroque. However, the white room at the northwest corner of the main level was remodeled in the 1890s I think, and the large chapel was only able to be added in the mid 1800s after the dome was added. As a general rule, if it has a huge painted coved ceiling covered in gilding and allegorical figures, it is baroque (or rococo, sometimes). The private rooms of the palace, however, were redecorated many times, apparently, and could easily have accumulated Victorian clutter, though most seem to have actually been classical or rococo in architectural decoration from pictures I'd seen. Some private rooms were even baroque, such as the arbeitzimmer.


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## Tiaren

I always have to cringe when I hear or read someone referring to late 19th century German architecture/design as "Victorian". It's called "Wilhelminian" specifically for large and representative architecture or "Gründerzeit" in general.


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## dodo00

Tiaren, do you happen to know anything about the history of the private apartments? There's so many different suites, were they all from different periods?


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## Joe Whalen 7

*19th Century Interiors*

Thanks for reminding me that decor from the late 19th century would most likely have been "Wilhelminian" style rather than "Victorian" as far as Germany is considered. Here in America, the normal tendency is to lump together as "Victorian" all interior decoration of at least the second half of the 19th century. Only those who are really into interior design differentiate the various sub-categories. 

Nothing personal, but come to think of it, I have only heard the term "Wilhelminian" used in a few history books here in America.


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## Tiaren

Well, Queen Victoria didn't rule over Germany nor did she greatly influence it, so it makes absolutely no sense to call German architecture or design from that period Victorian.
I doubt even many Germans would know about the term Wilhelminian. Even the much broader term Gründerzeit might not ring a bell. Germans are awfully oblivious about their history before 1914, let alone history of art, architecture and design.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*More on 19th Century Interiors*

Tiaran:

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is right to lump all interior design from that era as "Victorian." I'm just saying that there is a tendency to do that here in America. I just happened to do so without thinking it through. My apologies.

I also agree that many people are unaware of the details of their own country's history. For example: I doubt that all that many Germans, if asked, would know that Queen Victoria was Kaiser Wilhelm II's grandmother.


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## bribri

Tiaren said:


> Well, Queen Victoria didn't rule over Germany nor did she greatly influence it, so it makes absolutely no sense to call German architecture or design from that period Victorian.
> I doubt even many Germans would know about the term Wilhelminian. Even the much broader term Gründerzeit might not ring a bell. Germans are awfully oblivious about their history before 1914, let alone history of art, architecture and design.


She did have influence though in that her daughter was married to Kaiser Friedrich III and therefore was a Kaiserin of Germany and Kaiser Wilhelm II was Queen Victoria's grandson and apparently he idolised his grandmother.


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## JustinHerman

As "grandmother to European royalty," I think Victoria exerted more influence on her grandchildren and their respective courts than she did on their countries as a whole. Empress Alexandra of Russia comes immediately to mind. She decorated her family's private living quarters in a fussy Victorian style that was looked upon with scorn by the Russian aristocracy.


----------



## Ludi

noisrevid said:


> wie immer gibts den Link nochmal für das Orginal: ~35MB Groß
> 
> _Bild vonr mir_


_©noisrevid_


----------



## Ludi

View with Bode-Museum.























































Facade 2.floor



















3. floor



















Here still left the crowns.



















my own pics, ©Ludi


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## erbse

I'm so excited to see the cupola covered! My favourite part of the building's exterior.


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## dodo00

My favorite parts are actually the eosander portal and the portals on the south side. I guess I like the parts that add definition to the flat walls. The cupola is so ugly right now, I can't wait to see it clad either! Did they raise the money yet to restore it to its original design?


----------



## dodo00

Every time i look at the cupola, I think "that concrete ribbon between the windows and the dome can't be original, can it?" But it is disguised so well in the finished design, surprises me every time!


----------



## JustinHerman

I, too, had a hard time with the "concrete ribbon between windows and dome" at first. It looks so tall. But if you look carefully at the original, you'll see they truly are rebuilding the original. Much of the "concrete ribbon" you see now will be hidden behind the balustrade and cornices yet to be built along the top of the octagonal base.


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## AbidM

Soo nice!


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## RanaDesignConsultant

Lovely architecture!


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## dodo00

Joe here's a site that should put to rest your theories. 

http://the-lothians.blogspot.com/2011/11/virtual-tour-of-berlin-royal-palace.html?m=1

It says that all staterooms with the exceptions of the red velvet chamber, the western end of the bilder gallery, the big room at the northwest corner, and the new chapel were to designs from the first decade of the 1700s. The red velvet chamber was, too, but was renovated a bit later.


----------



## MiguelAlves

Great development.


----------



## dodo00

*Interior Room Picture Motherlode*

You guys won't believe this, but I stumbled upon a page that contains links to PDFs that contain hundreds of interior photos of the palace! These rooms are so obscure I honestly can't believe pictures were ever taken of them, but they were!

http://www.fruehes.berlin/


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## Tiaren

Also very interesting, probably the most for dodo00:

The official site of the Stadtschloss reconstruction wrote an article (in German) about the reconstruction of the statues adorning the facades:
http://berliner-schloss.de/blog/die-rekonstruktion-der-historischen-fassaden-teil-ii/

They want to get as close to the original baroque sculptures as possible with the help of many old photos taken at different times and perspectives. Before their destruction after WWII some of the statues were already replaced by Wilhelmine (or as some forumers would call it "Victorian"  ) copies of the statues. These statues had lost most of their baroque dynamism and lightness and were modeled after 19th century preferences.

Baroque original (on the left):









Wilhelmine copy (on the left):









Now the original baroque versions will be recreated, not the Wilhelmine ones.

A so called "bolzetti" a still sketchy, smaller clay version of the upcoming recreations, were you can already guess the baroque dynamism:









A life-sized gypsum recreation of a royal crest that will later be carved in stone:










Here the crest at it's original place situated above the statues:


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Good Decision*

I number myself among those who support the decision to rebuild the Stadtschloss. Reclaiming a significant part of German history and the history of Berlin as it does is, to me and many others, a worthwhile goal.

While personally, I would have rebuilt all four exterior walls in baroque style and left all of the interior walls modern, I respect the fact that what they are doing was their decision to make. I and many others look forward to the completion of the new building.


----------



## Cager

Source


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## Tiaren

Why so tiny...?

Blick über den Alexanderplatz by Jonas Apelt, on Flickr


----------



## enobarbus

MDRB said:


> I think that this is the type of commentary that you need to avoid. If you don't like it, please don't say that in this community, well at least in that way.


This is an opinion forum, not a fan site. I don't like the project, and neither do 90% of architectural critics. 



ChinaBRICS said:


> Religiously dogmatized troll, no point to anwswer him.
> Is impossible to discuss with someone that has not a single solid argument.
> We've seen this a million times!!!
> 
> Congrats Berlin!
> I've never been to the city, but as soon as City Palace construction is finished you'll have me there.
> Some of us can percieve the romanticism behind the reconstruccion and beside the urban retrofit!


I've been to Berlin more times than I can count. Apparently the city has been taken over by some lunatic fringe of conservatives who seem to think that they reconstruct its old architecture to rival Paris. 

Firstly, this is completely delusional since the palace was never considered a great or interesting piece of architecture until the communists knocked it down. And Berlin was never as conventionally pretty or grand as Paris, which is why Hitler wanted to knock the place down and build it again.

Secondly, they completely miss the point of Berlin, which to me the most riveting and one of the most beautiful cities in Europe precisely because it's a mess and the scars of history are everywhere. It's got an edge and an attitude which the likes of Paris can never have. (Full disclosure: I despise Paris.) A lot of the modern stuff in Berlin is just fantastic, and most of the reconstructed historical buildings are drab. This was the ideal location for a great modern architectural statement. Of course, in an ideal world the GDR building should never have been knocked, because not only was it a nice accompaniment to the TV tower, but it represented the best of Berlin, with history - _real _history not fake Disney history like this reconstruction - dripping from every brick.


----------



## webeagle12

enobarbus said:


> This is an opinion forum, not a fan site. I don't like the project, and neither do 90% of architectural critics.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been to Berlin more times than I can count. Apparently the city has been taken over by some lunatic fringe of conservatives who seem to think that they reconstruct its old architecture to rival Paris.
> 
> Firstly, this is completely delusional since the palace was never considered a great or interesting piece of architecture until the communists knocked it down. And Berlin was never as conventionally pretty or grand as Paris, which is why Hitler wanted to knock the place down and build it again.
> 
> Secondly, they completely miss the point of Berlin, which to me the most riveting and one of the most beautiful cities in Europe precisely because it's a mess and the scars of history are everywhere. It's got an edge and an attitude which the likes of Paris can never have. (Full disclosure: I despise Paris.) A lot of the modern stuff in Berlin is just fantastic, and most of the reconstructed historical buildings are drab. This was the ideal location for a great modern architectural statement. Of course, in an ideal world the GDR building should never have been knocked, because not only was it a nice accompaniment to the TV tower, but it represented the best of Berlin with history - _real _history not fake Disney history like this reconstruction - dripping from every brick.


This is construction forum, not your opinion forum. Don't like it, then either don't visit this topic or log off and close your browser next time you want to state your opinion. World doesn't revolve around you so you can take your opinions and put then where sun don't shine hot shot. I come here to photos/updates, not to read your crap.


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## enobarbus

webeagle12 said:


> This is construction forum, not your opinion forum. Don't like it, then either don't visit this topic or log off and close your browser next time you want to state your opinion. World doesn't revolve around you so you can take your opinions and put then where sun don't shine hot shot. I come here to photos/updates, not to read your crap.


Are there no moderators on here who can deal with this sort of abuse?


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## ChinaBRICS

enobarbus said:


> I've been to Berlin more times than I can count. Apparently the city has been taken over by some lunatic fringe of conservatives who seem to think that they reconstruct its old architecture to rival Paris.


Nothing is less conservative than to rebuild or build traditionnal.

Conservative is to follow dictamination of architecture establishment that totally disapprove reconstructions! Conservative is follow trends as a sheep.
You're totally dogmatised.

Who ever talked about Paris?
Who wants to rival Paris?
Nonsense after nonsense.

Your religious approach to modern architecture and dogmatic refussal of reconstruction reminded me this:

http://www.intbau.org/archive/essay3.htm

The good thing for Berlin is that if people with such an extremely narrow mindset rejects reconstruction, it only can be good!!!


----------



## enobarbus

ChinaBRICS said:


> Nothing is less conservative than to rebuild or build traditionnal.
> 
> Conservative is to follow dictamination of architecture establishment that totally disapprove reconstructions! Conservative is follow trends as a sheep.
> You're totally dogmatised.
> 
> Who ever talked about Paris?
> Who wants to rival Paris?
> Nonsense after nonsense.
> 
> Your religious approach to modern architecture and dogmatic refussal of reconstruction reminded me this:
> 
> http://www.intbau.org/archive/essay3.htm
> 
> The good thing for Berlin is that if people with such an extremely narrow mindset rejects reconstruction, it only can be good!!!


But it's not a reconstruction - it's a grotesque fantasy. It's about as much a 'reconstruction' as building a copy of the Eiffel tower on the Las Vegas strip. I had no problem with Buckingham palace being reconstructed after it was bombed during the war, but if somebody in London suggested rebuilding Richmond palace everybody would rightly consider they'd taken leave of their senses. Add to it the fact that it was built after destroying the former East German parliament building, which was the site of numerous historical events - the short-sightedness and sheer vandalism are breathtaking.


----------



## ChinaBRICS

Who cares about London?

London is example of nothing regarding urbanism, and is the capital of architecture mainstream.
Is like asking Milton Friedman what he thinks of welfare state and taking him seriously...

Open your mind!


----------



## Saxonia

enobarbus said:


> Add to it the fact that it was built after destroying the former East German parliament building, *which was the site of numerous historical events* - the short-sightedness and sheer vandalism are breathtaking.


For example?


----------



## enobarbus

Saxonia said:


> For example?


Do you really not understand why the East German parliament is historically important?


----------



## Titan Man

enobarbus said:


> This is an opinion forum, not a fan site. I don't like the project, and neither do 90% of architectural critics.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been to Berlin more times than I can count. Apparently the city has been taken over by some lunatic fringe of conservatives who seem to think that they reconstruct its old architecture to rival Paris.
> 
> Firstly, this is completely delusional since the palace was never considered a great or interesting piece of architecture until the communists knocked it down. And Berlin was never as conventionally pretty or grand as Paris, which is why Hitler wanted to knock the place down and build it again.
> 
> Secondly, they completely miss the point of Berlin, which to me the most riveting and one of the most beautiful cities in Europe precisely because it's a mess and the scars of history are everywhere. It's got an edge and an attitude which the likes of Paris can never have. (Full disclosure: I despise Paris.) A lot of the modern stuff in Berlin is just fantastic, and most of the reconstructed historical buildings are drab. This was the ideal location for a great modern architectural statement. Of course, in an ideal world the GDR building should never have been knocked, because not only was it a nice accompaniment to the TV tower, but it represented the best of Berlin, with history - _real _history not fake Disney history like this reconstruction - dripping from every brick.


You are a perfect example of a mere tourist that only sees this city through their tourist eyes. People like you want to see Berlin with "scars", cheap communist buildings, hipster art scene and undeveloped districts only to experience their own fantasy of a "cool" city for a couple of days and go back to their beautiful, normal, organised city. People like you don't care that there are actually few million people living there, people that want to have a normal life in their normal city which can absolutely rival any capital in the world if it wants to. If you want to see a crappy commie city, visit some of those Chinese instant-cities, they are full of cheap architecture, but leave the Berliners to finally decide how they want to see their city, they'll for sure make a better decision than you.


----------



## enobarbus

Titan Man said:


> You are a perfect example of a mere tourist that only sees this city through their tourist eyes. People like you want to see Berlin with "scars", cheap communist buildings, hipster art scene and undeveloped districts only to experience their own fantasy of a "cool" city for a couple of days and go back to their beautiful, normal, organised city. People like you don't care that there are actually few million people living there, people that want to have a normal life in their normal city which can absolutely rival any capital in the world if it wants to. If you want to see a crappy commie city, visit some of those Chinese instant-cities, they are full of cheap architecture, but leave the Berliners to finally decide how they want to see their city, they'll for sure make a better decision than you.


FYI I lived in Berlin for several months, so it is not purely as a tourist that I see it. You're so blinded by your own architectural biases, it seems, that you can't even acknowledge the Palast der Republik for the architectural masterpiece that it was. How sad. 

I see a perfect parallel here with the capital of my own country, Dublin. The authorities here were so resentful of former British rule, that they proceeded to tear down half of Georgian Dublin. And let me tell you, we're regretting it now. Berlin will regret this.


----------



## Titan Man

enobarbus said:


> FYI I lived in Berlin for several months, so it is not purely as a tourist that I see it. You're so blinded by your own architectural biases, it seems, that you can't even acknowledge the Palast der Republik for the architectural masterpiece that it was. How sad.
> 
> I see a perfect parallel here with the capital of my own country, Dublin. The authorities here were so resentful of former British rule, that they proceeded to tear down half of Georgian Dublin. And let me tell you, we're regretting it now. Berlin will regret this.


If the Palast der Republik was such a masterpiece, it wouldn't get demolished. But I think this discussion is pointless since I can see how dogmatized you are. How sad. 

I find it funny that you're comparing Georgian architecture with cheap commie architecture that can be found anywhere in the world and which is still being built in some poorer countries. I think it tells it all. Cheers.


----------



## Tiaren

@ enobarbus, if you are so fond of Berlin, as you claim, stop insulting it and Berliners in the first place. No one is rebuilding the palace and other buildings to rival Paris or any other city. Not once have I heard such stupid comparisons before but from you now. Berlin/Germany doesn't need to copy other places. It has it's own history and architectural heritage and that history and architectural heritage is so *so* much more than that fugly pseudo parliament of the GDR, which was thrown up there and wrongfully occupied the original palace's spot for 30 years. The Stadtschloss however had a history of over 500 years. There real history was written!

Also fixed:



enobarbus said:


> The* GDR* authorities here were so resentful of former* Prussian* rule, that they proceeded to tear down half of *historical Berlin*. And let me tell you, we're regretting it now.


Wham!! This probably just blew your mind.










But in comparison to Dublin we are now rolling up our sleeves to right the wrong that was done.


----------



## krokkel

I was never a fan of the Palast der Republik (for one thing: it had the appearance of a turbinehall) but for me, the point enobarbus is trying to make, is that architecture has more to it than providing 'a good feeling'. And the reconstruction of the Citypalace has a lot to do with providing 'a good feeling'.


----------



## Saxonia

enobarbus said:


> Do you really not understand why the East German parliament is historically important?


No, not really. Apart from a short period after 18th March 1990, it was an irrelevant institution. Chosen delegates to chear Ulbricht and Honecker.


----------



## Kampflamm

enobarbus said:


> Do you really not understand why the East German parliament is historically important?


You do realize that in all Socialist countries parliaments had virtually no influence over the governing of the country, right? As Saxonia has pointed out, it more or less had only one substantial vote which was to join the federal republic.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Back to the Subject Please*

Is their any chance that we can get back to monitoring the Humboldt Forum construction site? Arguing about the pros and cons of Berlin as a city seems pointless since there are never any "right" or "wrong" opinions in that sort of thing.


----------



## enobarbus

Kampflamm said:


> You do realize that in all Socialist countries parliaments had virtually no influence over the governing of the country, right? As Saxonia has pointed out, it more or less had only one substantial vote which was to join the federal republic.


Yes, that doesn't make it historically unimportant. In many ways, this building was the official heart and soul of the GDR, with cultural events and important political meetings happening there frequently. Destroying it is, in my view, attempting to purge the memory of the hated GDR.


----------



## Saxonia

The PdR was finished in 1976 only 14 years later the DDR ceased to exist. 

This is where politics was made:

Staatsratsgebäude 









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:State_Council_building_in_Berlin.jpg









http://www.my-entdecker.de/2014/06/30/bauwerk-der-ost-moderne-das-staatsratsgebaeude/

Haus des ZK der SED (aka Reichsbank, aka Auswärtiges Amt (Foreign Office))









http://www.bukarest.diplo.de/contentblob/2302268/Galeriebild_gross/433355/19891018_ZKZentrale.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...eiterungsbau_der_Reichsbank_13.jpg?uselang=de


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## ThatOneGuy

I think it's ridiculous to hate a building -and want it demolished- based on its history.


----------



## Suburbanist

ThatOneGuy said:


> I think it's ridiculous to hate a building -and want it demolished- based on its history.


not necessarily, if the buildings are related to foreign communist occupation. I once said here the Fernsehturm should be demolished and replaced by a new tower 400m tall


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## erbse

I was born East German.
The Fernsehturm / TV Tower was and is iconic for East Germans and now all Germans. It won't be torn down.

The Palast der Republik was almost universally laughed at and disliked (look for "Erichs Lampenladen" and similar mockeries). Admired somehow for its pompous light installations and some other features inside yes, but that's about it.

Besides being poisoned with asbestos and other harmful chemicals, it just looked drab even when fairly new. It was objectively the totally wrong building for this location. If it was somewhere next to Karl-Marx-Allee, nobody would've mind if it stayed, but not as a substitute for Berlin's historical heart and origin that stood and has grown there for centuries. That was blown up brutally by the SED to have a marching square and the PdR later. NO WAY. *We won't let socialist cultural terrorism and ugliness win over Berlin's heart.* EOD for me.


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Suburbanist said:


> I once said here the Fernsehturm should be demolished and replaced by a new tower 400m tall


Yeah, and that's ridiculous.


----------



## The Eagle

enobarbus said:


> It's got an edge and an attitude which the likes of Paris can never have. (Full disclosure: I despise Paris.) A lot of the modern stuff in Berlin is just fantastic, and most of the reconstructed historical buildings are drab. This was the ideal location for a great modern architectural statement.
> 
> 
> You know that Berlin has one building, only one reconstructed?
> And that one is not 100%. Or do you count fixing church towers as re-constructions?
> 
> The government wanted modern at first, But concrete would been to unfriendly and a Glass box unfit for sun rays and stealing as well as the need for an air conditioning. Not to mention the need to hide the wiring in a glass box. Berlin has Glass Boxes. They all have technical difficulties despite looking good.


----------



## MDRB

enobarbus said:


> Are there no moderators on here who can deal with this sort of abuse?



That isn't abuse.


----------



## durden5573

enobarbus said:


> I saw this monstrosity under construction in Berlin last week. I have to say this is the most ill-conceived and ridiculous project I've ever come across - especially given it's in an apparently forward-looking place like Berlin.


I'm going to assume this is a troll, because otherwise it's someone completely ignorant to the historical and cultural significance of this project. This project says more about the future of Berlin than any benign soulless modern building could ever.


----------



## enobarbus

durden5573 said:


> I'm going to assume this is a troll, because otherwise it's someone completely ignorant to the historical and cultural significance of this project. This project says more about the future of Berlin than any benign soulless modern building could ever.


I'm actually stunned that people on an architectural forum are so unanimously in favour of this. You could count on one hand the number of serious architects in the world who thinks this is a good idea.


----------



## Titan Man

enobarbus said:


> I'm actually stunned that people on an architectural forum are so unanimously in favour of this. You could count on one hand the number of serious architects in the world who thinks this is a good idea.


Who cares for their opinion?! It's their fault that a desire for reconstruction of destroyed buildings is growing rapidly. If those destroyed buildings were replaced by something that people actually like, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place. And, please, name me some of those architects. I can assure you that every single one of them built at least one crappy building.


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## Saxonia

And I could count the number of architects I take serious on one hand.


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## ChinaBRICS

Saxonia said:


> The PdR was finished in 1976 only 14 years later the DDR ceased to exist.
> 
> This is where politics was made:
> 
> Staatsratsgebäude


I don't understand why this original portail isn't put in the palace and a new facade is designed for this uber ugly building.

What was in it's place before the bombings and soviets?


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## erbse

It's not such a bad building when seen in context. It got quite some classical appeal actually. And the interiors are quite something.

The portal isn't really like the original either. It's not much of a reconstruction in various details. It's some kind of socialist romanticism. Still, it will be odd to have this across a portal of the south-side baroque palace facades - but so typical Berlin.  I'm excited for the tourist guides trying to explain the whole situation there...


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## enobarbus

Titan Man said:


> Who cares for their opinion?! It's their fault that a desire for reconstruction of destroyed buildings is growing rapidly. If those destroyed buildings were replaced by something that people actually like, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place. And, please, name me some of those architects. I can assure you that every single one of them built at least one crappy building.


Fair enough. The point is that I'm expressing a valid opinion, and a widely shared one, that this is crap. It's hardly trolling.


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## ChinaBRICS

As valid as saying Sun turns around the Earth.
Argumentsless


----------



## erbse

"Widely shared" is really disputable, enobarbus. You didn't share any valuable references for this.
That "this is crap" isn't much of a "valid opinion" either, it's blatant opinionism.
Even from the harsher critics among modernist architects I never heard such things. They were critical indeed, but never dared to call the baroque facades crap or anything. Because they'd look like fools anyway. Many of them also don't oppose to the idea of reconstruction, as even some of their most beloved buildings such as the Bauhaus in Dessau were reconstructed.

So, anyway. We've heard your point. If you don't have anything substantial to add (obviously not), it's time to move on.


----------



## FrancoJR

I gather there is some controversy around the return of the Neptune fountain to it's original site. Will this also affect the return of the Horse Tamers? 










http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berl...ringend-saniert-werden,10809148,32411954.html


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## dodo00

About the "serious architects" thing,

I went through a phase when I would only watch TV shows if they got really good reviews. After a while, though, I realized that I'd rather just watch stuff I actually enjoy regardless of what the critics say.

In the same way, I think id rather see a building I enjoy looking at, and not pretend to like modern architecture just because the "serious architects" say it's technically good design.

Edit: By the way, id actually argue that this discussion is perfectly suited to the thread, I mean arguing over the merits of the construction is perfectly acceptable for a forum about the construction, no?


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## dodo00

And about the supposed historic merits of the palast. First, the palace had witnessed ten times the history of the palast. Second, the palace obviously had at least ten times if not a thousand times (not exaggerating with that number, just count the statues) the artistic effort put into it over the centuries. On top of that, the palast was only like 50 years old! It was the equivalent of a scab on the skin of the city, just waiting to be healed up. I can't believe there is even an argument over what deserves to be in that spot.


----------



## dlamoureux

For those of you whom either live in Berlin or have visited many times over the years, you had a constant reminder of Old Berlin through books, postcards, and many mediums for decades (not to mention from our families). The city and all is wonderful architecture past and present is and was in the fore front of all our minds. Always dreaming of a time past and of course looking to the future when it came to the architecture development. What can I say.....I love this building!! I love any reconstruction!! Bring back the old streetscapes....You can not go wrong. I also believe it is a tribute to, and to honour all the citizens of the past whom built this city over centuries. Take in a visit to Dresden Frauenkirche.....Very Moving!!


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## Tiaren

Very interesting short documentary "What happened to the remains of the City Palace" on RBB television:
https://www.rbb-online.de/abendschau/serien/die-sonntagsfrage/sonntagsfrage-stadtschloss.html
In German only though...


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## JustinHerman

Very poignant video. It makes me appreciate even more profoundly the reconstruction of at least part of this magnificent building. Thank you for posting.


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## dodo00

When you say only one third of the rooms CAN be reconstructed, do you remember what that means? I wonder if it means only a third had pictures taken, or only a third were worth reconstructing for historical significance. I read somewhere that only 60 rooms or so are architecturally significant enough to warrant reconstruction. I'd argue around 80 are _beautiful_ enough to warrant reconstruction, but 60 is already a large number admittedly. The entire interiors of the northwest corner dated from the 1910s or so because Wilhelm II changed the entire corner's inside layout from basement to attic, so those rooms may not be deemed historically significant enough. Did I post the links to those pdfs with photos of all the obscure private rooms here? They contain photos of an incredible number of private apartments, but there are still some large rooms in the southwest corner on the second (third in america) floor which had no photos provided. I wonder if no photos were taken of them, or if they were not architecturally significant enough to be considered for reconstruction?


----------



## Titan Man

dodo00 said:


> When you say only one third of the rooms CAN be reconstructed, do you remember what that means? I wonder if it means only a third had pictures taken, or only a third were worth reconstructing for historical significance. I read somewhere that only 60 rooms or so are architecturally significant enough to warrant reconstruction. I'd argue around 80 are _beautiful_ enough to warrant reconstruction, but 60 is already a large number admittedly. The entire interiors of the northwest corner dated from the 1910s or so because Wilhelm II changed the entire corner's inside layout from basement to attic, so those rooms may not be deemed historically significant enough. Did I post the links to those pdfs with photos of all the obscure private rooms here? They contain photos of an incredible number of private apartments, but there are still some large rooms in the southwest corner on the second (third in america) floor which had no photos provided. I wonder if no photos were taken of them, or if they were not architecturally significant enough to be considered for reconstruction?


The reconstructed palace structurally supports reconstruction of only a third of the original interior, as I read in an article by some popular German papers, maybe Bild or Reuters, don't remember anymore. That one third includes state rooms which were architecturally important, the others were offices for some statesmen or something like that so they decided not to allow their future reconstruction as they were not so important.


----------



## dodo00

Well, as you may have noticed, there is no room for the rittersaal or elizabethsaal. The top floor extends directly through their upper halves! If they say there is room for all the staterooms, then that information is obviously untrustworthy. The chapel doesn't have enough ceiling height either. They have left room for the Schweitzer saal, but even to reconstruct the gigantentreppe, they'd have to tear out a concrete floor or two. If you accept that there is room for all the state chambers, then by that measure, there's room for every room in the entire palace because they are even required to tear out concrete floors to fulfill this statement...


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Stadtschloss Interiors*

I think that you "purists" will just have to live with the fact that there doesn't seem to be any current plans to rebuild any of the former palace interiors. Frankly, I admire the way that they are reconstructing the historic facades of the building and coupling those with functional interiors that have a purpose in the 21st century. Some time in the future, they might reconstruct one or two of the original rooms, but more than that would take changing the purpose of the building from what we in America would call a convention center and museum complex to that of a complete historic reconstruction. Frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.


----------



## dodo00

I live with the lack of current plans for interior reconstruction. However, the schweitzer saal does have its original footprint cast into concrete. I'd agree that a complete historic reconstruction at present appears to be a long shot, but I will still hold out hope for it, it's just one of those things I can't help. I mean, 30 years ago it was considered a long shot to ever have the palace exist again in any form. Yet, against great opposition, public opinion eventually turned, and today we have an incredibly accurate shell back in its original place. At Catherine Palace, they started with only a reconstruction of the rococo staterooms of Rastrelli, yet that has been completed for decades. Five years ago or so, the Arabesque hall was restored, then the agate chambers, and this year, restoration commences on the Chapel. Although I'll admit Russian interior reconstruction seems to be much more driven than the Germans', Once one room is finished, others seem to follow one at a time, even if it takes 50 years. Also, I don't understand why people seem to think it is impractical to use rooms with baroque decoration as event spaces and museum display rooms.. these rooms are quite large. You say it has to transition from a museum and convention center into a historic reconstruction? Why not have all three? Even with 60 reconstructed rooms, there is still plenty of space on the top floor, in the ground floor, in the basement... There are only three architecturally significant rooms I've seen in the entire ground floor, and that cross wing between the courtyards only has the alabastersaal..


----------



## Tiaren

Dodo00, you always seem very passionate about the reconstruction of the City Palace. Have you thought about or maybe already donated money to this cause? 
If there are enough donations they confirmed that they will at least reconstruct the Gigantentreppe. 










After that the next possible recontruction would indeed be the Schweizer Saal.










But if they barely get enough money to reconstruct the fascades (and it sadly looks like this right now) there won't be any reconstructed rooms, as easy as that.


----------



## Titan Man

I don't understand the logic that the reconstructed palaces like this one must have a purpose as office space or something like that. When you look at the Russian palaces, they all have reconstructed interiors, and those rooms were bloody hard and expensive to rebuild. Yet they are visited by millions of tourists and they are UNESCO World Heritage Sites, it is quite obvious they've made quite an income over the years. I think if, for instance, Mannheim Palace gets completely rebuilt, it would bring many tourists to the city, including me probably. Same goes for Berlin Palace. It's not always about functionality, and functionality is not always about profit.


----------



## Tiaren

What are you talking about? Germany has reconstructed probably more palaces and castles inside and out in the past than Russia has.

Some well known examples:

Charlottenburg Palace, Berlin:

Schloss Charlottenburg by Jonathan, on Flickr

Residence, Munich:

Festsaalbau der Residenz, München by Anton Schedlbauer, on Flickr

Residence, Würzburg:

Würzburg Residence by Felix's Endless Journey, on Flickr

Augustusburg Palace, Brühl:

Schloss Augustusburg in Brühl by Christine, on Flickr

Bruchsal Palace:

Schloss Bruchsal by Markus Hermenau, on Flickr

Palace, Dresden (still ongoing):

Dresden, Residenzschloß by rengawfalo, on Flickr

It's just at present time, that there are mostly only facade reconstructions in Germany. As you know this country is a very frugal and austere country for several reasons. It's not just itself that it has worry about.


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## erbse

The current situation is the critical issue though. The discussion about reconstructions turned very dogmatic in the past decades, and only slowly we're getting back to a point where this isn't such an outrageous issue to the (leftist) 'elite'.



Titan Man said:


> It's not always about functionality, and functionality is not always about profit.


Exactly. It's not like form follows function; form can be a (beautiful) function in itself. 

Our lovely old towns, palaces, cathedrals and other landmarks all around the globe prove it.


----------



## dodo00

Tiaren: Yes, I am very passionate about the interior reconstruction, probably a bit too much honestly.. I have thought about giving money, but it doesn't feel right when I'm currently so financially dependent. 

Also, I wasn't aware they had confirmed the possibility of the staircase! Great news 

Also, I'll concede to your point on the German Palaces, I only knew about three of those. When I was in the Zwinger giftshop, I bought a big book about the Dresden Residenz interior restoration, but it was mostly for pictures.

So, is the donation status for the exterior walls in a grave position? I remember seeing that barely over half of the donations have been given, is this the reason for the slowing of construction?


----------



## Orgón

Berlin is Magic!!!


----------



## TimothyR

Tiaren said:


> What are you talking about? Germany has reconstructed probably more palaces and castles inside and out in the past than Russia has.
> 
> Some well known examples:
> 
> Residence, Würzburg:
> 
> Würzburg Residence by Felix's Endless Journey, on Flickr.


They are all splendid. This is one is exceptionally magnificent.


----------



## erbse

^ Check out the marvellous interiors of the Würzburg Residence, esp. the staircase and the chapel, it's World Heritage for a reason! 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Interior_of_Residence_Würzburg 


Let's not forget about the Dresden Zwinger either, which was largely reconstructed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwinger_(Dresden)

(It's quite odd how the English Wiki article about it is so tiny, given its global relevance and compared to the German article...)


----------



## Tiaren

dodo00 said:


> So, is the donation status for the exterior walls in a grave position? I remember seeing that barely over half of the donations have been given, is this the reason for the slowing of construction?


They don't want to admit it yet, but it obviously is. The initial goal of 80 million was already a lot and just a few months ago they revised the needed amount of money to over 100 million, including more baroque details. Until 2017 the facade reconstruction will be finished. Realistically they will never be able to raise another 50 million in 1-2 years. But don't worry, the construction isn't going to slow or even halt. What they also don't want to admit, but which is an open secret by now: the government has actually already prepaid all facades. They naturally don't want any bad publicity because of yet another unfinished prestige project. On one hand that's a big worry less but on the other hand that means that there will be no interior reconstruction when the donations don't even cover the facades in the end.
So if you are able to donate something, even if it's just a small amount (5€?), just do it. If many pople would act like this, we might still finance more than just the facades after all.



TimothyR said:


> They are all splendid. This is one is exceptionally magnificent.


In my opinion the Würzburg Residence is the most amazing baroque palace in all of Europe. Yes, even surpassing Versailles. It might not be as big (even though it is among the biggest baroque palaces in Europe) but it is even more precious and more of a "gesamtkunstwerk". Napolen was reportedly very impressed by it when he visited the city.

One of it's highlight is the largest painted ceiling in the entire world, painted by Italy's "greatest decorative painter of the eighteenth-century", Tiepolo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Tiepolo

Treppenhaus der Würzburger Residenz by Matt Keyworth, on Flickr

This picture hardly manages to do this room justice though. Hard to photograph, it as to be experienced. :/

Once more a full exterior shot:
Würzburger Residenz by khoianh, on Flickr


----------



## TimothyR

erbse said:


> ^ Check out the marvellous interiors of the Würzburg Residence, esp. the staircase and the chapel, it's World Heritage for a reason!
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Interior_of_Residence_Würzburg


Stunning. That chapel is a perfect gem.



> Let's not forget about the Dresden Zwinger either, which was largely reconstructed!
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwinger_(Dresden)


Yes I have visited the Zwinger. It was even more beautiful than it looked in photos.


----------



## TimothyR

Tiaren said:


> In my opinion the Würzburg Residence is the most amazing baroque palace in all of Europe. Yes, even surpassing Versailles. It might not be as big (even though it is among the biggest baroque palaces in Europe) but it is even more precious and more of a "gesamtkunstwerk". Napolen was reportedly very impressed by it when he visited the city.
> 
> One of it's highlight is the largest painted ceiling in the entire world, painted by Italy's "greatest decorative painter of the eighteenth-century", Tiepolo.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Tiepolo
> 
> Treppenhaus der Würzburger Residenz by Matt Keyworth, on Flickr


It is breathtaking. I will add it to my list of places - and cities - that I must see.


----------



## Titan Man

Tiaren said:


> What are you talking about? Germany has reconstructed probably more palaces and castles inside and out in the past than Russia has.
> 
> 
> It's just at present time, that there are mostly only facade reconstructions in Germany. As you know this country is a very frugal and austere country for several reasons. It's not just itself that it has worry about.


I know, Germans are among the greatest masters, if not THE greatest masters when it comes to reconstruction. I was referring to the more recent reconstructions like Braunschweig Palace (today a mall), Potsdam City Palace (I was shocked when I noticed that they've modified the exterior in the courtyard, I wonder how would they incorporate the reconstructed interior, since I've read it can be reconstructed in future) and Berlin City Palace (too many modifications IMO, but I still support it). The older reconstruction efforts were shockingly amazing, especially Würzburg Residence. And it only costed 20 million euros. It is definitely my favourite palace interior in Germany (exterior being that of Hubertusburg Palace).


----------



## dodo00

The Berliner stadtschloss was never on my list of faves until recently, because its relatively obscure and I always found the exterior to be monotonous and asymmetrical. It's currently my favorite though, so I guess it's an acquired taste? As far as interesting construction history, though, Versailles will probably always top my lists. I'm almost never as much of a fan of palaces constructed all at once for some reason. The layout is just less interesting I guess? As far as the tourism aspect of interiors of palaces, I think I can attest to that. On my guided tour of Budapest, we even drove up to the top of the hill Buda castle was on, and still didn't bother to check out the palace, let alone go on a tour, because its completely full of communist era government and library spaces after it was burnt out in WWII.


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## Titan Man

I like when the whole building is well-proportioned and organised, so the original Stadtschloss wouldn't completely "please" my taste, although the interior was quite something, probably one of the best in the world and the baroque part of the facade was also stunningly beautiful. About Versailles, it doesn't attract me that much, I mean, I would visit it if I had an opportunity, but I would rather choose Ludwigsburg, Augustusburg or Catherine Palace.

Also, I'm surprised that the Hohenzollerns haven't done some heavy rebuilding of the renaissance part of the palace, I mean, the palace was their "stronghold" so one would expect a desire for perfection.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*When in Budapest*

Dodo00:

The next time that you are in the Budapest area, visit Godolo to see the former imperial estate. It's been completely restored inside and out after being trashed by the occupying Soviet army. I think that those who advocate a complete restoration of the Berliner Stadtschloss would approve.


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## dodo00

I'm curious why you prefer Catherine palace to Versailles.. I mean, catherine palace is definitely up in my top 10, and Versailles doesn't have that coherence you love, but the staterooms facing the garden are perfectly arranged (especially under the conditions) and the garden facade is incredibly coherent for the circumstances. Catherine palace is coherent, but its proportional width is admittedly a bit ridiculous and those additions to either end throw off rastrelli's original design.. At least the later additions to the Berliner stadtschloss were usually improvements up until wilhelm II

Edit: Actually eosanders additions made the palace less symmetrical on the north and south but he did the best he could under restrictions hampering his grand design..

Back to the topic though, I think there were plans to rebuild at least the cross wing if not the spree facade as well in the baroque style. I personally prefer the palace with older parts as well, just for the added history implied and to see the compromises the architects were forced to cleverly devise.


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## Windblower

dodo00 said:


> ...On my guided tour of Budapest, we even drove up to the top of the hill Buda castle was on, and still didn't bother to check out the palace, let alone go on a tour, because its completely full of communist era government and library spaces after it was burnt out in WWII...


Really sorry and our humble apologies for not entertaining you in sufficient manner at the Buda Castle. Really communist era government and library spaces are there to be seen, but luckily you were fortunate enough not to visit them.

So you have an opinion about sg you did not see - used as an argumentation on the likeliness of the new Stadtschloss. :applause: :applause: :applause:

I've been many times in Berlin, but never thought about using the name of the Karl Marx Allee, or the existence of Marx and Engels' statue for argumentation.

Just make it clear: the Buda Castle was completely burnt out when your country gave us a helping hand last time, but we rebuilt it in the 70's and did not demolish it completely, like your fellow GDR-state did it with the remains of the Stadtschloss. Sorry, that you do not like the result and resisted to visit Buda Castle to see the reality.

As a moderator i am aware that all flame war begins like this, but i will not go in any further discussion. However, the gun was shot by You and do not wonder if there is also a respond.


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## erbse

I don't think dodo wanted to make a political statement, it's just that obviously he expected there wouldn't be much to see inside Buda Castle. :dunno:


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## Windblower

I do not mean the political part of the message, but he wrote: he did not visit it, so how he knows? 

There are and there were never been any *communist governmental* spaces in the Buda Castle, we had and have there our National Gallery, the National Library with tremendous number of World treasure books, the Budapest History Museum and the Sándor Palace, seat of the President of the Republic since 2003. (Political change happened in 1989).

BTW i am glad about the restauration of the Stadtschloss in Berlin, it will be way nicer then the Palast of Republic was earlier. :applause:


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## dodo00

First of all, bringing up what country I am from is completely uncalled for, I had nothing to do with things that happened 50 years ago and was born here completely by coincidence.

I don't want to start a flame war, and was honestly not expecting such an offended reaction. I just wish to say that I have seen photos from before the war and after the reconstruction, the traditional interiors make me want to visit much more than the modern interiors, and I think that a great deal of tourists would agree with me. I believe my personal preference is a little bit of evidence to support my point.

I understand that after what happened in the war we are fortunate still to have an outer shell, especially after considering the lack of money. I criticize the purposeful destruction of so much artistic detail after the war, but I can understand the reasons for simpler interior reconstruction. However, I cannot truthfully say that as an architecture tourist I would be compelled to tour the modern interiors.


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## erbse

There's still the reconstructed parts of the courtyards though which are well worth to take a step inside!  
And the museums of the Humboldt-Forum will be great as well, I think.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Adaptive Reuse*

I would rather see an old building preserved or rebuilt by finding a new use for it than seeing it allowed to be torn down or allowed to go to ruin. Rebuilding the Stadtschloss in Potsdam as well as in Berlin are good examples of what in the architectural profession is known as "adaptive reuse." By this, I mean that you salvage the exterior and what other elements you can and incorporate them into the new interior. Why some of you seem to be so opposed to this when the alternative is no building at all is beyond me. In my opinion, Communist Hungary did a great job with the former Budapest Royal Palace. Germany is now doing a great job with the Berliner Stadtschloss as it has already done in Potsdam. True, there are numerous restorations in Europe that have taken place since World War II that are complete faithful replications of destroyed buildings. However, if that is never going to happen, I would welcome buildings like the new Humboldt Forum any time over having nothing but a memory.


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## Titan Man

It's ok when they do it for temporary use, but I dislike when they reconstruct an important building like this palace without making it completely "reconstrutable" in the future. I know that they can rebuild parts of the interior some day, but the majority of the interior can't be reconstructed. Same goes for Potsdamer Stadtschloss, they've changed the ground plan so the interior just can't be COMPLETELY reconstructed, other examples being Herrenhausen Palace, Braunschweig Palace etc. We all know how important royal palaces can be for a city, just look at Vienna and its Schonbrunn, which is a major cultural venue partly because of its opulent interior which adds to the atmosphere when there is a concert of classical music or something like that. Now, I know it's VERY expensive to rebuild the interior, but to leave the opportunity for doing it in the future isn't, so I don't get why it's not done with projects like this. Modern cultural venues are being built and will continue to be built, and that's how it should be as we live in a completely different world, but having a glimpse of former cultural taste just for us to experience is very crucial for the cultural enlightment of a city or even nation.


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## Tiaren

Titan Man said:


> We all know how important royal palaces can be for a city, just look at Vienna and its Schonbrunn, which is a major cultural venue partly because of its opulent interior which adds to the atmosphere when there is a concert of classical music or something like that.


What Schönbrunn and the Belvedere are to Vienna, Charlottenburg Palace and the palaces of Sanssouci are to Berlin. If you want to induldge yourself in royal/imperial opulance Berlin doesn't need to hide from Vienna. 
Now we additionally also get the exterior and courtyards of the City Palace back. That's a huge step in the right direction.


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## Titan Man

While both of those palaces are wonderful and fully deserve their UNESCO World Heritage status, they're rather modest in size, and Berliner Stadtschloss was the "central" and giant residence comparable with any other royal residence in the world.
The project of the palace is a huge step in the right direction itself, especially when you consider the struggle the initiators of the project had to go through, but my opinion is that it shouldn't be done at any cost, with some compromises we won't be able to redo later.


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## dodo00

I'd agree that reusing a building is a better alternative. Actually, I am slightly pleased, at least one stateroom of Buda Castle appears to have survived, albeit heavily simplified! Better than nothing. Can be seen before/after at 5:30 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0El1Oa_Ivg

But Titan Man, there is nothing in the reconstruction that can't be reversed. They demolished the palast, after all! I don't think tearing out a floor or two is such a huge deal, though demolition of the spree facade for its historic reconstruction would add significantly to the price tag. 

Also, I remember reading somewhere that the main staterooms of the Potsdamer Schloss were actually allowed future reconstruction. I'll admit, though, the rooms hidden in the attic make the roof hideous and the way they altered the wings is a bit cringey.


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## Tiaren

Titan Man said:


> While both of those palaces are wonderful and fully deserve their UNESCO World Heritage status, they're rather modest in size, and Berliner Stadtschloss was the "central" and giant residence comparable with any other royal residence in the world.


Even though they are UNESCO sites, they are not good enough, just because of their size...? Do you always measure architecture and art by it's size?
That being said, Charlottenburg Palace is bigger than the Belvedere and the Neues Palais of Sanssouci is of similar size than Schönbrunn.
The front facade of the Neues Palais is with 220m even longer actually. Schönbrunn's main facade is "just" 180m long.

Neues Palais, Sanssouci:

Neues Palais in Potsdam by caputter, on Flickr

Potsdam Neues Palais S.E.elevation 2 by Koenigsmark, on Flickr

Potsdam Neues Palais South elevation by Koenigsmark, on Flickr

University of Potsdam at Neues Palais (Potsdam, Germany) by Sergey Pavlichenko, on Flickr










Honestly, in which universe is this considered "modest"? And this just one of 5 palaces in the park of Sanssouci.

Your arguments are as always easily refutable, like with the "Russia has reconstructed much more palaces and castles than Germany" claim. You seem to be pretty interested and knowledgable about Germany, but there is apparently still a lot that you don't know...


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## Titan Man

Tiaren said:


> Even though they are UNESCO sites, they are not good enough, just because of their size...? Do you always measure architecture and art by it's size?
> That being said, Charlottenburg Palace is bigger than the Belvedere and the Neues Palais of Sanssouci is of similar size than Schönbrunn.
> The front facade of the Neues Palais is with 220m even longer actually. Schönbrunn's main facade is "just" 180m long.
> 
> Your arguments are as always easily refutable, like with the "Russia has reconstructed much more palaces and castles than Germany" claim. You seem to be pretty interested and knowledgable about Germany, but there is apparently still a lot that you don't know...


Of course I don't measure architecture by size, I myself like Charlottenburg and Sanssouci much more than Schönbrunn. Size isn't a factor when it comes to architecture, at least for me. For instance, I'm not very fond of Versailles and Caserta, Europe's biggest palaces. The size matters when it comes to hosting some bigger cultural events, like balls, dinners etc. Sanssouci is a lot smaller than Schönbrunn when it comes to number of rooms, their size... Just look at the ballroom of Schönbrunn, it's like half of the Sanssouci Palace (not literally :nuts: ). Neues Palais is a different story, it was intentionally built as a "show-off" by Frederick the Great, and it looks like that, but there's one problem. It is in Potsdam, not Berlin. No matter how close these two cities are and the fact that the palaces in Berlin and Potsdam are together on the UNESCO Heritage List, it's still not the same as if it was a palace in Berlin. The Berliner Stadtschloss, on the other hand, is located in the heart of Berlin and the rooms were gigantic enough to host a concert of Metallica ( :nuts: ). Of course, the reconstructed palace that we're getting now will be a major cultural hub itself and one can't expect the reconstruction of all rooms in few years, the Hohenzollerns needed few centuries to do it, and they were rich as sh*t, but to leave a chance for a complete adjustment in the future is not that big of a deal.

If my arguments are refutable, feel fully free to dispute them, I don't care, it's also a good way to learn something. About those Russian palaces, I answered you, but all the posts were erased so I don't know if you've seen my reply. One also has to take into consideration that English is not my first language and when I write a post, I do it in few minutes since there's always something that interrupts me, so I can write something which is not what I meant (again, the argument with Russian palaces) or something can sound different than what I intended to say. That's why I don't want to drag myself into fights here often. Anyway, I think there's not much to say anymore and we should stop spoiling the thread with meaningless arguments and enjoy the photos from the construction site and renders of the finished building.


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## erbse

As has been said before, *the reconstruction of many major rooms of Berlin's Palace will still be perfectly possible* with some modifications (like new walls that'd have to be added). It's not much of a big deal, really.

Dunno how often this has to be repeated, but well.. 

Let's first manage that we get the *facades* financed completely, or we might never see a single room coming back - even if you only donate some Euros, it adds up as many people do it: 

*http://berliner-schloss.de/en/donations/*


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## Titan Man

What happens if they don't collect enough money for the facades and the government interrupts? Will they continue collecting money even when the building is done to repay the state or what?


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## Suburbanist

I doubt very much they would have come with money and political approval for the project had it not been sold as a new house for the Ethnographic Museum and other research facilities. I guess the global importance of the collection currently sit in the Dahlem buildings is loss to some forumers. It is simply on of the top 3 systematic collections of ethnographic works and registers of older times, and the one that was started the earliest with a scientific approach (instead of just someone with money randomly traveling around the World and buying cool stuff).

The Dahlem buildings are quite maxed out, and they are a stick-together of rooms and spaces progressively expanded over time with results that are not always the best. The university there also needs space for other non-exhibition activities.

These objects need to be displayed in relatively neutral rooms so that they - not the room details/relief/decoration - stands out. That is quite a normal practice among museums and galleries worldwide. You can go for grandiose forms that don't mess with the scale of objects shown (such as the Guggenheim buildings), you can have specific rooms where the decoration is part of the exhibition, but no one mainstream top curator would recommend a new, multi-million and large buildings rebuilt as some old palace with all details and visual distractions as the preferred environment for an ethnographic museum. 

That would only make sense if they were building a museum centered around the palace itself. But that, as I said, would never muster the political and financial support to expend that much money...

I think many people here are clung on the building itself, giving its proposed use nothing more than a minor afterthought. The building would not have gone up without the proposed uses, in all likelihood. And I think it would be politically unacceptable for the university to come up 20 years from now and ask for another € 300 million because they decided to put extra walls, visually pollute what must be blank walls and else, rendering the museum "outdated" for its purposes.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Usage Is Important*

I agree with "Suburbanist." If there had not been a practical use for the building in the twenty-first century, the Stadtschloss would most likely never have been rebuilt. As he points out: The building by itself was hardly the only reason that the place is being rebuilt. As we watch the reconstruction progress we need to remember that. 

Frankly some of you act like they ought to have chamber pots rather than restrooms in the new building in order to be "authentic."


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## Tiaren

@Titan Man: Sanssouci belongs as much to Berlin as Versailles belongs to Paris. Even Schönbrunn was at it's time built outside the old city borders.
That's all I'm adding for now. You are right, these endless dicussions are futile and only strain this thread.

@Suburbanist, for once I do agree with you. 
Even though many (including me) are disappointed that there will be no interior reconstructions for now, don't forget that this building was not thought to be a palace reconstruction in the first place, but the construction of a 21. century museum and exhibition place. Only it's facades and courts will look like the old City Palace.
And please also don't forget, that instead of the baroque interior you will be able to see one of -if not THE- world's most impressive ethnographic exhibitions. Now with more space than ever before. So it will be nontheless a first rate tourist attraction.

Some glimpses of what is to come:














































This last one is a Chinese emperor's throne and paravent from the 17. century. O:


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## Titan Man

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> I agree with "Suburbanist." If there had not been a practical use for the building in the twenty-first century, the Stadtschloss would most likely never have been rebuilt. As he points out: The building by itself was hardly the only reason that the place is being rebuilt. As we watch the reconstruction progress we need to remember that.
> 
> Frankly some of you act like they ought to have chamber pots rather than restrooms in the new building in order to be "authentic."



Frankly, the palace would've never gotten rebuilt if the society for its reconstruction demanded it to be only a palace museum. They've found a new purpose for it which is good enough for the moment. It will be a giant expansion of the Museum Island and it will help with bringing new tourists to the city.

About authenticity, I don't think the building itself is less authentic just because of those modifications. The reconstructed part of the former palace is authentic as it can be (facade) and the other parts (interior, facade facing Spree) are not reconstructions and weren't intended to be, so one can't talk about whole building being inauthentic or authentic. It would be inauthentic for me if they've added new ornaments, not envisioned by the architect of the building, on the baroque facade or if they've made an enlargement of the building in baroque style.

Also, how many artifacts will the building be able to hold, since it's quite huge?


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## Tiaren

Titan Man said:


> Also, how many artifacts will the building be able to hold, since it's quite huge?


I don't know exactly, but more than before. Parts of the first and the complete second and third floor will be reserved for the ethnological collections.


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## robertwood

For those who worry about the re-creation of the Berlin Palace I would tell them to look to the Fraunkirche in Dresden. For all practical purposes it is a new building and people line up to see it. I have seen it and it is beautiful. The Berlin Palace will be the same and all the angst will have been for nothing.


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## Tiaren

New short documentary about the sculptural work on the City Palace.






Completely in German, but lot's of interesting video material.


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## albanyjd

It looks like construction predictions for the end of 2015 was not entirely met but came very close! Congratulations to all. Does anyone know what the expectations are for the end of 2016?


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## durden5573

Sorry for the off topic post, but I had to plug my favourite schloss the Schweriner Schloss - I toured this in the early 90s and it was in total disrepair, seeing pictures like this bring a tear to my eye about what is possible with other lost gems:


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## Joe Whalen 7

*The Schweriner Schloss*

It should also be noted that the Schweriner Schloss is another example of "adaptive reuse." It is my understanding that it is now the seat of government for the German state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.


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## erbse

Indeed that's the regional parliament of my home state MV. And dare I say, I for one think it's the most beautiful parliament in the world (UK, Hungary etc. have qualities of their own, but can't quite compare to such a picturesque palace). 

And what makes it even better... It's at the center of 7 large lakes surrounding the lovely old town of Schwerin. :lovethem: Fairy-talish to the max.









Schwerin Mecklenburg by Seeadler 1, auf Flickr









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...and_Luftbild_Schweriner_Schloss_Insel_See.jpg









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...rmany_Schweriner_Schloss_Garten_BUGA_2009.jpg


Coming to think of it, it's incredible what was lost in WW2 and afterwards in Germany, or due to other wars, stupidities or just neglect. *At the same time, we should be very happy gems like Schwerin Palace survived in almost their full splendour. And that today we're able to bring crown jewels like Berlin's Palace back, step by step.* Slowly but surely!


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## Steinar37

Schwerin Palace: what a beauty. Thank god it survived.

But: whats going on at the City Palace? it looks like nothing much.. are the workers still on vacation?


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## Tiaren

Yes, they just had vacation, also it's pretty cold and there lies a cover of snow. Not the best premise for masonry work.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Masonry Work*

I don't know what the custom is in Germany, but in America it has to be above freezing with rising temperatures in the forcast for construction projects to undertake work with cement. Otherwise, when the wet cement freezes it cracks and has to be chipped out and redone.


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## erbse

It's the same here. There are technical devices to allow for cement works in freezing conditions, but they are barely used due to the costs and remaining risks. In earlier times, construction was even halted sometimes for half a year or longer, to guarantee it all sets and hardens accurately. In traditional construction of alpine houses for instance, this is still done - you'll see a wooden shell or bare brickwork for two seasons and only then they'll continue construction works. It helps to *create buildings meant to last*.


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## Chris_57

*Useful forum?*

Hi guys,

is anyone familiar with a forum in German which also discusses the reconstruction of the palace ? I remember stumbling upon it a few weeks ago and found it useful for images and information.. it's updated very often but is separate from skyscrapercity.

Anyone recognize the website ?

Thanks,

Chris.


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## Bavarian Angelshark

Chris_57 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> is anyone familiar with a forum in German which also discusses the reconstruction of the palace ? I remember stumbling upon it a few weeks ago and found it useful for images and information.. it's updated very often but is separate from skyscrapercity.
> 
> Anyone recognize the website ?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris.


http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=2597&pageNo=1

http://www.deutsches-architektur-forum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=11187


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## Ludi

Or just take the german SSC-Thread for "ze Stadtschloss".


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## JustinHerman

http://cam03.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/

For the time being.


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## Tiaren

In the extreme cold the City Palace and it's facade is growing slowly, but growing nontheless:



christos-greece said:


> Berliner Schloss by David Bank, on Flickr
> 
> Berliner Schloss by David Bank, on Flickr
> 
> Berliner Schloss by David Bank, on Flickr


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## Titan Man

Wooow, what a progress, I thought the facade will grow much slower than that. It seems to me that the exterior could be finished in a year or so.

P.S. Is that a Christmas tree on top of the dome? :nuts:


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## ChinaBRICS

No, it's Superman!


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## erbse

Titan Man said:


> Is that a Christmas tree on top of the dome?


Ja, it is!  They sure have loads of fun at this construction site, we've seen the Christmas tree on top of the cupola, 'robots', various funny or fan-motivated banners, strange worker outfits, ...


Once more for its beauty: The facade projections during Berlin Festival Of Lights!









Festival Of Lights: Berliner Stadtschloss by Michael Krolop, auf Flickr


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## JustinHerman

Titan Man: In the event your question was not asked with tongue in cheek, lashing a tree to the uppermost part of a new building is part the topping out ceremony that originated centuries ago in Scandinavia. The tree or branch was originally supposed to ward off evil spirits. Over time, the tradition migrated across northern Europe and then to the Americas. The custom is alive and well today though, with almost nobody believing in evil spirits anymore, is largely symbolic.


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## Ludi

some pics made today.


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## Ludi

_©eldaco_


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## Titan Man

Illumination seems almost perfect and it shows all the aspects of the building at its best, but I'm not very sure about the dome, it seems slightly kitschy, or at least "overloaded".


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## towerpower123

Titan Man said:


> Illumination seems almost perfect and it shows all the aspects of the building at its best, but I'm not very sure about the dome, it seems slightly kitschy, or at least "overloaded".


That dome is just as "overloaded" as it needs to be. It looks great!

As far as the amount of stars visible in the sky, I call BULLSHIT!!!!


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## Titan Man

towerpower123 said:


> That dome is just as "overloaded" as it needs to be. It looks great!
> 
> As far as the amount of stars visible in the sky, I call BULLSHIT!!!!


I meant as overloaded with light, the illumination of the dome should be slightly toned down, IMHO.


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## WR HEARST

whatever they do on that building,it will never ever have any soul nor charm.
I had the same feeling when i visited the Freuenkirche (rebuilt in 2008)in beautiful Dresden.Fake old just doesn't match.


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## Saxonia

So why "beautiful Dresden" then? Almost all buildings in the old town are reconstructions of completely or heavy destroyed originals. Semperoper, Zwinger, Residenzschloss - I could go on.


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## erbse

Indeed. Just give the Frauenkirche and its surrounding Neumarkt some years to gain patina and really "arrive" in the heart of the city. Just like reconstructed Semperoper and Zwinger did.

Berlin's City Palace exterior will definitely add soul to the area. Much more so than the horrid "Palace" of the Republic ever could.


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## WR HEARST

wow!..my bad!..you are probably right as i was very impressed by Semperoper and Zwinger.
I will never get tired to say how beautiful german architecture is,Munchen being my favorite city..


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## Titan Man

IMO, the problem people have today with reconstructions is that they KNOW it's a reconstruction, they see all its flaws and address it to reconstruction process, so they can't look at it in the same way as they would if it was still the original building. I bet if you bring someone who doesn't know Frauenkirche was destroyed and rebuilt, they probably would experience its charm and beauty without problem, just like WR HEARST did with other rebuilt buildings in Dresden. And as erbse said, it needs to gain patina and it will be all fine, just like Warsaw's Old Town, Semperoper or Zwinger.


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## JustinHerman

I agree with Erbse. The original palace, like the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, was once new and pristine. Over decades and centuries both aged like fine wine, developing a patina and character that endeared them to millions. This reconstructed palace, with the natural materials used in its exterior, too, will age gracefully.

In contrast, modern steel and glass boxes, such as the FH University building in central Potsdam, cannot develop the character that comes with graceful aging. They are like modern pasteurized wine that wouldn't throw a sediment in a hundred years. With their man-made materials, such buildings rely on pristineness for impact. Left to time and the elements, they quickly become seedy and decrepit eyesores.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Consistency Would Be Great*

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I think that it's best when all of the buildings in a historic area retain the same look and feel of the original, even if they are reconstructions or something new is being added. I really hate it when they throw up something modern in a baroque or classical neighborhood and act like it's not going to stick out like a sore thumb. If I had been making the decision, I would have made the fourth side of the Stadtschloss have the same baroque look as the other three sides, even though that was not original to the site. Then I would have used only modern architecture on the interior rather than mixing baroque and modern. As it is, it looks weird to me when you have three walls in baroque style and one in modern. Just my opinion.


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## Titan Man

While I generally agree with you that modern buildings usually don't correspond well with the surrounding historical buildings, in this case I would do the exterior exactly like it was before the palace was demolished. Just because the fourth part of the building wasn't "pretty" and coherent with the new, baroque part, doesn't mean it had smaller historical significance. Erasing history only because someone doesn't like it is not a good thing to do (although in this case it has already been erased  ). Also, it looks like it hadn't too many ornaments so I think it would be a lot cheaper to build than a new baroque side.


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## Tiaren

German royalty visiting the palace construction site, where once their ancestral home stood and will stand soon again. 

The bloke in the middle is His Imperial and Royal Highness Georg Friedrich Ferdinand Prince of Prussia. If monarchy would resume in Germany he would be first in line to the throne.



Ludi said:


> http://www.sbs-humboldtforum.de/de/Veranstaltungen/Weitere-Veranstaltungen/


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## Titan Man

It would be funny if they demanded the palace back once it's finished... :nuts:


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Der Kaiser*

I think that you mean that Prince Karl Friedrich would be the "Kaiser," if monarchy were to be restored in Germany. He succeeded to the position as head of the house of Hohenzollern in 1994 when his grandfather died due to the unfortunate accidental death of his own father in 1977.


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## Opulentus

It would be very good if Germany's monarchy were to be restored. There needs to be more cause for patriotism, which monarchy promotes, especially in this time where both Germany and Europe as a whole face so many dangers.


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## JustinHerman

I hesitate to touch this one. When I was a child, my elderly German and Russian relatives, who remembered life under Kaiser and Tsar, and who lived through violent revolution in both countries, kept a tight lid on the subject. Though they would reminisce about their day-to-day lives in a world that had vanished, seemingly forever, they carefully avoided expressing political views one way or another about the monarchical systems under which they lived because it was such an explosive and divisive topic, especially between the older and younger generations. I think there was also an element of fear; they'd been traumatized by war, revolution, and civil war followed by collapsed economies, rampant inflation, and starvation. It was lingering trauma compounded by a deep fear of Communist and Nazi regimes.

How different the world is since then! Nowadays, that older generation is gone, communism is virtually dead, Germany is reunited, and there's talk about reviving monarchy both in Germany and Russia. (There's even a Monarchist Party in the Russian Duma - who could have imagined such a thing even a few short years ago?) Hohenzollerns are visiting an ancestral palace being rebuilt in Berlin and Romanovs are visiting palaces and attending state funerals in St. Petersburg. But monarchy is still a divisive issue. Personally, I would love to see a restoration of monarchy in Germany and Russia, but it is a decision that must be left wholly to the citizens of those two countries, and nobody else.

Meantime, it is awesome to see the brick- and stonework proceeding at Berliner Stadtschloss in winter!


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## bribri

I've always thought since this project commenced that the Hohenzollerns should have a suite of apartments in this palace. It would be a partial restoration of their property rights.


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## Spam King

Titan Man said:


> Hopefully, the Cathedral will be restored, as well...


I hope so too, but I don't see it likely. I really wish the Denkmalkirche would be rebuilt, it's such a shame that it survived the war pretty much intact and was demolished by the piece of shit communist regime.


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## Dream.Achieve

Titan Man said:


> Hopefully, the Cathedral will be restored, as well...


I agree. It was a glorious cathedral. Much nicer in the past.


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## AbidM

Oh wow, I love the videos.


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## Ludi




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## robertwood

Ludi You're the best! Thanks for the updates. Can't wait to come to Germany and see this place for real!


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## JustinHerman

Nobody takes a close-up like Ludi. It's always great to see such detail.

BTW, does anybody know what the trees are in the first photo? The brown burs hanging from the treetops (at left) look like sweet gum, but I don't think sweet gum grows outside of the southeastern United States.


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## Tiaren

robertwood said:


> Ludi You're the best! Thanks for the updates. Can't wait to come to Germany and see this place for real!





JustinHerman said:


> Nobody takes a close-up like Ludi. It's always great to see such detail.
> 
> BTW, does anybody know what the trees are in the first photo? The brown burs hanging from the treetops (at left) look like sweet gum, but I don't think sweet gum grows outside of the southeastern United States.


Hmph...no one ever praises me though I often bring news and information and answer your questions... :/
Anyway...
The trees in Breite Straße are actually plane trees (Platanen). Their fruit looks indeed very similar to the American sweet gum.
Sweet gum is by the way no stranger to maritime climate zones of Western Europe (UK, Germany, France, BeNeLux...) where it is planted as an ornamental plant since the 17th century.


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## erbse

Praise the mighty lord Tiaren for delivering news and answering questions regularily! :master: 

And great job on the photos everyone, keep them coming. Also tourist shots are welcome.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Plane Trees*

I used to work in a plant nursery. European "plane trees" are actually the equivalent of our American sycamore trees although they also resemble sweet gum as well. The plane tree is favored in many urban situations because it can be pruned and trained to provide an excellent tree lined boulevard which is often the aim of city planners.


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## JustinHerman

Tiaren, there isn't a day that passes when I'm not grateful for your informative and helpful posts. They're always read, and are much treasured. 

Thank you - and you, too, Joe Whalen 7 - for the info about Platanen and sweet gum in northern Europe. As for sweet gum, I can only wonder why anyone would voluntarily plant such a troublesome tree. In summer their large branches break and crash to the ground in moderate storms. In autumn they drop their leaves, in winter their burs, and in spring their flowers, which ooze black oily fluid when it rains.


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## the runner

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FWoerden/status/718821528792657920


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## rudicantfail

Dream.Achieve said:


> I agree. It was a glorious cathedral. Much nicer in the past.


Oh come on guys, it is not that bad, considering what it has been through. I do agree that it would be nice to see the Denkmalskirche rebuilt, but where would the funds come from? It is not that important, not like the Schloss. _Damn communists......_:gaah:


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## Ludi

dubaibobby said:


> Einige aktuelle Ansichten
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> Bilder von mir


©dubaibobby


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## robertwood

what is the construction to the left? Is a a recreation of something lost?


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## JustinHerman

Alas, it's not a recreation, but a reconstruction of Shinkel Platz. From a distance the massing looks somewhat similar, but in reality the new structures are very different from the beautiful buildings that occupied the site until WWII. Given other reconstructions in Berlin, e.g., Leipziger Platz, this reconstruction could have been worse.


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## Tiaren

The Schinkelplatz (Schinkel Square) itself was reconstructed in every small detail a few years ago:










This is Carl Friedrich Schinkel's (Berlin's greatest architect of neoclassicism) monument on the square:

Der Schinkelplatz in Berlin Mitte by Johannes, on Flickr

One of his works, the Bauakademie (Academy of Building/Construction) in the back, will be reconstructed as well, but the other buildings surrounding the square will unfortunately all be modern.

In the end it will look like this:










The first finished building does fortunately not look too bad on closer inspection:



allaboutmusical said:


>


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## Manolo_B2

Tiaren said:


> The first finished building does fortunately not look too bad on closer inspection:


^^ not really hno:


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## White Light

allaboutmusical said:


> _(Fotos sind von heute und von mir)_



It looks like modern interpretation of Medici Palace to me.


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## erbse

Uhm, yeah. Sure it does?! :crazy:

I'm excited to see how this utterly stupid sprinkled plastering facade will be attacked by algae, moss, dirt and shite soon. All those cracks, holes and shallows are so inviting! It'll most probably age very, very badly. But the good thing is, it won't be that hard to give it a new facade.


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## JustinHerman

Why does "modern interpretation" always have to mean stripping something of everything that makes it interesting and unique? It looks cheap and hastily constructed, like the river façade tacked onto the new palace. I'm simply unable to see sublimity in the commonplace.


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## Suburbanist

JustinHerman said:


> Why does "modern interpretation" always have to mean stripping something of everything that makes it interesting and unique? It looks cheap and hastily constructed, like the river façade tacked onto the new palace. I'm simply unable to see sublimity in the commonplace.


In the era after video and photography, it makes no sense to spend lots of money, time and aggravation to build ornaments. We have plenty of screens to entertain ourselves with detail, buildings should overwhelm and awe us with their larger-of-life scale (hence my love for big clean-line buildings that are enormous geometric volumes looked close by)


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## erbse

^ Yeah. We should all be surrounded by smartphones and screens that entertain us. Lol.

Ornaments aren't for mere "entertaining purposes", they are a timeless beauty that won't need anything but some maintenance once in a while. No energy, no blinking lights, just calm and silent beauty that will remain for ages.


Anyway, the Spree facade likely won't be much better than this render, but let's still wait for final results to judge:









http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berl...ach-des-berliner-schlosses-eroeffnen-23267162


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## Cager

We need your support! 

Petition to reconstruct the Kaiser Wilhelm Monument.

https://www.change.org/p/michael-mü...ce_location=petitions_share_skip#delivered-to


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## Architecture lover

White Light said:


> It looks like modern interpretation of Medici Palace to me.


Please don't compare these two, since they are light years away, the closest I ever saw German art to look similar to Italian was when they put a copy of Michelangelo's David in some German city and yes his hair was painted yellow, and yes his other hair just above his private part was also painted in yellow. I think one can easily find photos of that 'art' on google.
By the way, the palace seems to be very high quality.


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## Tiaren

*Let us rejoice, the Einheitsdenkmal (Memorial of Unity) won't be build! *

The Bundestag finally dropped the Einheitsdenkmal due to ever rising costs and problems. This ugly mess won't be built in front of the City Palace:


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## rudicantfail

Tiaren said:


> *Let us rejoice, the Einheitsdenkmal (Memorial of Unity) won't be build! *
> 
> The Bundestag finally dropped the Einheitsdenkmal due to ever rising costs and problems. This ugly mess won't be built in front of the City Palace:



It was a terrible design, truly terrible. Rebuild the Kaiser monument yes, but NOT this modern rubbish.


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## ILOVENY

^^ Not only is it ugly and out of place, but the render showing people climbing those steep inclinations is hilarious.


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## towerpower123

It is not the Medici Palace by any streycj of the imagination, but it sure is a great design as far as minimalism is concerned.


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## robertwood

OMG Thank God they're not building that Memorial of Unity! Horrible! Now let's support the rebuilding of the Kaiser Wilhelm memorial.


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## robertwood

Thanks for the news Tiaren! And for the information about the Shinkelplatz you provided earlier which I am just now seeing. Thanks!


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## artObserver

The spaces between the blocks in the inner facades of Stella somewhat distort the general impression from a new palace:









I hope the spaces between the sandstone blocks in the baroque facades will be hidden (at least, they are not seen at the restored part of the facade exposed near the Berlin Cathedral):









Photos by Spreetunnel (http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org)


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## Joe Whalen 7

*No Unity Memorial*

It's great news to hear that the "Unity Memorial" has been canceled. That thing looked like a giant bomb fragment!

Another option would be to rebuild the arcade surrounding the Kaiser Wilhelm memorial statue and substitute a memorial to German unity using classical sculpture that would go with the restored palace facade. Trying to force modernistic works to coexist with classical ones is a disservice to both.


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## Tiaren

artObserver said:


> The spaces between the blocks in the inner facades of Stella somewhat distort the general impression from a new palace.
> I hope the spaces between the sandstone blocks in the baroque facades will be hidden (at least, they are not seen at the restored part of the facade exposed near the Berlin Cathedral):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


The baroque parts will of course be grouted, you don't need to worry about that. The modern parts will retain these ugly gaps though. It seems to be a preferred method to give structure to an otherwise plain, straight surface of modernist design. :/


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## Torch

Thanks god, the Einheits Denkmal got scrapped. 

Further more, Germany already has a Memorial of Reunification! It's this one:









It was raised on October 3rd 1990, and is officially a memorial.


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## Fudgis

Now that ill-advised rocking sculpture has been aborted I really hope there is a movement to restore the Kaiser Wilhelm Monument in some form on its original site instead. The pre-war photos of the Schloss façade with the memorial's colonnades before it show what a striking group monument and palace made and could make again some day. So tragic that it was destroyed (further GDR vandalism) when it survived the war virtually unscathed.


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## bluescarf

It would be great to see the Kaiser Wilhelm monument restored but perhaps an empty space in place of the emperor. London's Trafalgar square has 'the fourth plinth' - a place where contemporary artists compete to display their work. that might look good. as for the side of the stadtschloss overlooking the river, what about covering it in greenery? I think that side of the original palace had a fair amount of ivy on it. a vertical garden would be a nod to the past but thoroughly modern and much more interesting than the current designs.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal site*

A good example of restoring prewar monuments is the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal at Koblenz. In recent years, the large equestrian statue of the emperor has been restored at the Deutsches Eck. Why not in Berlin? That's a good questions. (I would add a photo, but it doesn't seem to want to let me do that.)


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## White Light

Here is the statue in question at Koblenz.


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## bluescarf

That is spectacular. Maybe a full restoration of the k. Wilhelm monument would work in front of the Berlin stadtschloss. though surely many people who would think it inappropriate, which would be a shame as ultimately it should be a symbol of unity...?


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## robertwood

bluescarf said:


> That is spectacular. Maybe a full restoration of the k. Wilhelm monument would work in front of the Berlin stadtschloss. though surely many people who would think it inappropriate, which would be a shame as ultimately it should be a symbol of unity...?


I think the substantive shape and form of the Kaiser Wilhelm should be restored but perhaps the bronze statuary can be changed to a unity theme if that would help gain support for restoration.


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## keepthepast

Will the garden area in the Scholssplatz on the south side of the palace be reconstructed in the form put in place by Empress Augusta?


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## FrancoJR

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - &quot;Humboldt-Forum&quot; | U/C*

I don't think so. This might be the best you can hope for. No comment.









Image by bbz Landschaftsarchitekten http://bbz.la/
at http://futurberlin.de/rathausforum-neptunbrunnen-schlossplatz/

They might be aiming for the original aspect










http://www.zeno.org/


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## Ludi

*Update*


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## JustinHerman

Thank you so much, Ludi, for posting these pics, especially those of the carved stone being placed above the arch of the Eosander Portal. The webcams don't show such fine detail. I'd say this portal promises to be spectacular when finished.


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## Tiaren

JustinHerman said:


> I'd say this portal promises to be spectacular when finished.


It definitely will! When finished it will be one of Europe's largest and most impressive triumphal arches again. For comparison:

Marble Arch (London): 12m

Arc du Triomphe du Carrousel (Paris): 19m

Arch of Constantine (Rome): 21m

*Eosander Portal: 30m*

Arc du Triomphe (Paris): 50m


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## Ludi

Cant wait for it. :colgate:


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## dodo00

*Corner Tower*

I'm not sure if anyone's discussed this yet, but are the west facade, the northwest corner, and the southeast corner tower taking so long because they require different window pediments? I'm assuming the custom pieces are behind on chiseling time and haven't been completed yet, hence the holdup on the portals as well?

Also, don't worry, I'm done ranting about the lack of reconstructed interiors and things they "forgot" to reconstruct, I got over it eventually


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Color Me Curious*

One of the rooms in the original palace had a series of circular decorations on the wall that looks like large porcelain plates. Regrettably, I am not sure of the name of the room. I was curious if that was what they were. That was the only time that I have ever seen anything like that in the way of interior decoration.


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## Titan Man

Don't know if it's true, but I read somewhere that the Japanese Palace in Dresden was to be covered in porcelain, but the works were never finished due to lack of funds and war. It would be interesting to see porcelain in something like that.


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## The Eagle

*As a matter of fact: Berlin has a whole street of buildings clad in Porcelain!!!

It`s called Frankfurter Allee and was a show of for East-Berlin. But the road was never completed for a lack of recourses. *




































*here one can see the tiles*:


















*build between 1953 to 1956*



































source winkipedia


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## dodo00

Joe, the room is the Rittersaal (Knights' Hall), and the plates on the wall are a 
"buffet" arrangement; they were made of gilded silver.









http://www.welt.de/kultur/history/a...s-Berliner-Schlosses-doch-nicht-verloren.html

That's a colorized picture, but they look to have gotten the colors right.

EDIT: Actually, looks like it survived the war:









http://www.helmutcaspar.de/aktuelles14/museen14/schlueter.htm

EDIT 2: Also, I found something similar, in Chatsworth House's Great Chamber in the Baroque Apartments, incase you'd like to check it out:
















http://architectdesign.blogspot.com/2015_06_07_archive.html


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Rittersaal Decoration*

I appreciate your help in identifying the decorative elements in the former "Rittersaal" of the Stadtschloss. It's too bad that they couldn't have included at least one of the original rooms in the current restoration.

By the way, I believe that Frankfurter Allee is actually made of what is more commonly called "terra cotta" rather than "porcelain." Of course, this may just be a difference in building terms from country to country.

My best, Joe


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## Tiaren

dodo00 said:


> EDIT: Actually, looks like it survived the war:


It did, it is showcased in the Arts and Crafts Museum in the Palace of Köpenick (a borrow of Berlin):


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## erbse

The Eagle said:


> source winkipedia


Oh boy, please. Some of these aren't Wiki Commons pics. And they are tiny, almost useless...
If you want to use thumbnails, you need to link the smaller preview picture with a larger full-resolution picture.


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## Kampflamm

Bro, do you even wiki?


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## Ludi

Tiaren said:


> It definitely will! When finished it will be one of Europe's largest and most impressive triumphal arches again. For comparison:
> 
> Marble Arch (London): 12m
> 
> Arc du Triomphe du Carrousel (Paris): 19m
> 
> Arch of Constantine (Rome): 21m
> 
> *Eosander Portal: 30m*
> 
> Arc du Triomphe (Paris): 50m


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## Tiaren

^^
This cartouche will by the way be about *8 metres* tall! O:


----------



## albanyjd

I notice there is no work being done on the north portals. Is there any plan to remove City Palace Portal IV from its location on the former state council building to the palace? Is this a genuine remnant from the old palace?


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## Tiaren

albanyjd said:


> I notice there is no work being done on the north portals. Is there any plan to remove City Palace Portal IV from its location on the former state council building to the palace? Is this a genuine remnant from the old palace?


Work on the north portals will begin at a later point because it is much easier to transport construction equipment and material through the portals into the buildings and courtyards without them being under construction. 

The portal will remain part of the Staatratsgebäude since it is a protected monument by now. About 1/5 of the portal is original. Mostly the statues and ornamentation.


----------



## Steinar37

I read that the Rittersaal (I think it was the Rittersaal) will be reconstructed as the only reconstructed room in the "New" palace.
Can anyone confirm?


----------



## Tiaren

Steinar37 said:


> I read that the Rittersaal (I think it was the Rittersaal) will be reconstructed as the only reconstructed room in the "New" palace.
> Can anyone confirm?


No, that is unfortunately not true. Right now there are no plans for any reconstruction. 
*If* there is a small chance for a reconstruction at a later point it is going to be the Gigantentreppe:










And then maybe the Schweizer Saal situated above it:










These two beautiful rooms have priority and their space isn't going to be occupied by anything too important in the Humboldt-Forum, just the very austere Lapidarium:










But like with all reconstructions: It is only coming if people are going to support it and donations make it possible.


----------



## makoppa




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## erbse

Each and everyone who once appreciated and joyfully anticipated the "contrasting, exciting" *East Facade* must admit now:
this modernist piece of **** is a total fail. Bland, dull, unelegant, unimaginative, uninspiring.

No, this is not the concrete building shell. It's the freaking *final thing*! icard: :cripes:









_by forumer Leperd_


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## hp7960

Why it is so gray ? It should be something in sandy tone.


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## artObserver

It's sad, but this result was inevitable, since functionalism completely dominates in modern German architecture


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## Steve Gatlin

*You're right Erbse*

It's my hope that the east facade will outrage enough Berliners that money will flow in just for replacing it with one compatible with the rest of the outside of the building. Otherwise, it should be covered with vines! Too bad Ficus pumila can't survive outside in Berlin!


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## Drainaps

Great Progress! ^^


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## ThatOneGuy

It's not that bad, it would surely look better in sunlight.


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## Fudgis

Hmmm, I fear that east façade will forever evoke the ghost of the Palast der Republik when the work is finished; the other three facades will proclaim the joy of reclaiming what was lost in place of the concrete monster that once sat here, whilst this section will likely be an eternal reminder of just that, a kind of 'Ulbricht's revenge' or 'DDR's last laugh!'


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## Suburbanist

The façade is not bad at all.

@erbse picked a pic showing it in the gloomiest possible light conditions. Under better sunlight, or even night artificial lighting, it will look fine. I read the old façade on that side was just a mismatch of several interventions over couple centuries, done in a very haphazard manner, so it is not like it was worth rebuilding anyway.


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## goschio

OMG that is so bad and cheap looking. hno:


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## Tiaren

Suburbanist said:


> The façade is not bad at all.
> 
> @erbse picked a pic showing it in the gloomiest possible light conditions. Under better sunlight, or even night artificial lighting, it will look fine.


Also, to be perfectly fair, it is still just a shell since it's large windows are missing. The facade isn't really finished yet contrary to what Erbse claimed. 










It will never be a beauty...but one has to be fair.


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## erbse

*Spree Facade | East Facade of the Royal Palace Berlin - Historical views*

I'm as fair as remotely possible here. The facade is finished. It doesn't matter much if the windows are missing yet (you could easily notice that), they won't change much about it.



Suburbanist said:


> @erbse picked a pic showing it in the gloomiest possible light conditions. Under better sunlight, or even night artificial lighting, it will look fine. I read the old façade on that side was just a mismatch of several interventions over couple centuries, done in a very haphazard manner, so it is not like it was worth rebuilding anyway.


Don't be ridiculous. Architecture that looks bad in these light conditions is bad architecture, period. It's gloomy like that in Berlin for like 4/5 of the year. :|

The older parts on this side were an interesting sidenote. It was historically grown imperfection, which makes a lot of the true beauty and charm of old European cities. Some of the oldest architecture in central Berlin and part of its earliest history were on this side of the Royal Palace. If they wouldn't reconstruct it, I'd expect them to at least create something that matches the style of the baroque facades (as planned by Stüler et al), not dull modernism you'd find anywhere else.

This was the historical pre-war condition, I expect at least the renaissance royal pharmacy (Schlossapotheke, to the right) to be reconstructed sooner than later (Kaiser-Wilhelm Bridge / today's Liebknechtbrücke in the front, also remains to be reconstructed in parts):









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kaiser_Wilhelm-Brücke-Berlin.jpg

Seen from the Palace side/Lustgarten, Palace Pharmacy (Schlossapotheke) to the right, towards Kaiser-Wilhelm-Bridge towards the Marienkirche church (in 1900):









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_Kaiser_Wilhelm_Bruecke_1900.jpg

I think they should reconstruct the right corner building at Kaiser-Wilhelm-Strasse by Cremer & Wolffenstein there!

The whole Spree side (without the pharmacy):








http://gaestebuch.forum-stadtbild.de/Schloss/spreefluegel.htm


















http://www.bilderbuch-berlin.net/Fotos/mitte_dom_und_schloss_an_der_spree_388577










A more distant view of the Palace with the Marienviertel and some of its more modern/historicist corners in the front:








http://www.bilderbuch-berlin.net/Fotos/mitte_gesamtansicht_historisch_Übersicht_schloss_dom_298908

And with the Cathedral (Berliner Dom) like it was before its simplified reconstruction post-1945 (and with the Denkmalskirche annex in the front, now an empty place):









http://www.bilderbuch-berlin.net/Fotos/mitte_berliner_dom_und_schloss_388572

An aerial view that wasn't shown here before, with parts of the old town of Berlin behind (Marienviertel, Heilig-Geist-Viertel):









http://www.bilderbuch-berlin.net/Fotos/mitte_berliner_schloss_und_dom_390202
https://kreuzberged.com/2016/03/12/today-in-berlin-welcome-to-berliner-stadtschloss/


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## erbse

Additional historical model of the Berlin Palace pre-war, of course it seems a little cluttered, but more charming and interesting than the flattened thing:









/free to use









































































The National Monument / Kaiser-Wilhelm Memorial:









All from: http://berlinerbaustellen.blogspot.de/2013/12/0183-video-pergamon-museum-knochenjob.html


Everyone sure nothing there is reconstruction-worthy? I don't think so.

This historical model of the Stadtschloss can be seen at Humboldtbox right next to the construction site, which is free to enter (of course you'll feel tempted to leave donations, many of them! ).


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## erbse

*Alternative designs for the Spree Facade / East Facade of Berlin's Royal Palace in Mitte*

There would have been more appropriate solutions for this side of the Palace, more in line with the baroque facades:

http://berliner-schloss.de/neues-sc...-preistraeger-des-architekturwettbewerbs-2008

Kleihues + Kleihues (I only like the Spree facade of this design):








http://www.kleihues.com/images/stories/wettbewerbe/museumsbauten/HBF/hbf_hauptansicht.jpg

Hans Kollhoff is especially good, the closest to pre-war but still some creative re-interpretations:


















http://abload.de/img/20081130172700pqydw.jpg
http://berliner-schloss.de/wp-content/uploads/20081130172700.jpg


This design by NPS Tchoban Voss Architects continues the baroque exterior towards the river Spree. 
Somewhat in line with Schlüter's original late baroque plans, but a bit bland and unoriginal to me.









http://s3.amazonaws.com/europaconcorsi/project_images/1207971/07NPS_schlossMONT_01.080919.jpg

The riverfront is great here, they should do it like that:








http://s3.amazonaws.com/europaconcorsi/project_images/1207979/08NPS_schlossMONT_02.080919.jpg


And then there was the suggestion of architect Stephan Braunfels, to leave out the Eastwing for an open courtyard (which leaves the problem of a missing baroque courtyard facade at Schlüterhof though):














































I like this earlier version best, which would have put the colonnades of the baroque facade free-standing instead, so it's a semi-open courtyard, that'd have been magnificent, while of course totally ahistorical:









http://www.rbb-online.de/kultur/the...native-entwuerfe-humboldtforum-Braunfels.html


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## goschio

^
They seem to have chosen the worst possible facade. Even some of the alternative modern designs look reasonably good.


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## erbse

*Franco Stella created a crappy Ostfassade on purpose?!*

Actually, Franco Stella is someone who appreciates classical architecture a lot and usually builds sensitive to environment and urban surroundings, especially in historical ensembles. He's more postmodern rather than modernist.

Maybe his intention was indeed to create something as dull as possible, so it can be torn down - as soon as possible (I suspected this when I've seen the first renders years ago). Sounds awkward, but the Bundestag decision clearly stated the Spree facade needs to be modernist, it was an ideological thing.

*So it seems possible Stella did it like this to make demolition fantasies soon more likely.*  After all, his courtyards and passageways are much better designs (because he wanted them to remain probably). But it's just me speculating. Again, Stella is no hardcore modernist, so I think all this isn't super unlikely.

I suggest you look at his website and judge for yourself:

http://www.francostella.eu/projects.html


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## JustinHerman

The modern Spree façade looks like a contemporary American parking garage, disguised to look like anything but.

I love the old river façade and Apothek. Both were rustically simple compared to the baroque palace, with its sheer size and thousands of tons of carved stone, and therefore should be easily reconstructed. I hope that, once the palace is completed, the modern façade is demolished and the old one rebuilt.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Lustgarten Question*

When the Nazis paved over the Lustgarten in the 1930s, what did they do with the statue of Friederich Wilhelm IV that used to stand there? (At least I believe that was who it was.) Did that statue survive the war and where did it end up since it is no longer in the restored Lustgarten? Just curious.


----------



## albanyjd

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> When the Nazis paved over the Lustgarten in the 1930s, what did they do with the statue of Friederich Wilhelm IV that used to stand there? (At least I believe that was who it was.) Did that statue survive the war and where did it end up since it is no longer in the restored Lustgarten? Just curious.


I believe the statue was of Frederich Wilhelm III was destroyed in the war. Two sculptures at the base had been saved and placed in the new Nikolaiviertel.


----------



## Roman_P

Suburbanist said:


> So they decided to give it a modern, forward-looking design instead of the pastiche of the other 3.


How is it forward-looking? Do you really consider that river facade to be some new word in architecture? They've been making facades exactly like this 50 years ago at least.


----------



## Tiaren

Seriously, can you guys stop using "pastiche", that Suburbanist brought in here? :| The facades are a faithful *reconstruction* (that is the right term) and not newly designed architecture reminiscent of an older style and in lesser quality. People calling reconstructions derogatory "pastiche" clearly unmask themselves as a bone-headed ignoramus.


----------



## Сталин

Il trovatore said:


> *Sensationelles Filmmaterial! Berlin nach der Apokalypse in Farbe und HD - Berlin In July 1945*
> 
> 
> 126267047


I wonder, what did the man say at 1:05?


----------



## erbse

themapguy said:


> Aufnahmen von gestern:


...


Tourist pics are also welcome here!


----------



## Tiaren

I wished they wouldn't only post these stamp sized images on the Stadtbild Deutschland Forum or else I would ask much more often if I could share images here, mostly of details like the beautiful ornamentation.


----------



## Suburbanist

I think it is fortunate they kept at least one modern façade, it will trigger future unsuspecting visitors to ask why it is that way and then they will be properly made aware they are seeing just a pastiche replica. The modern river side looks cool and enthralling. The best view of the building for sure.


----------



## erbse

Yeah, whatever. Stop trolling this thread with your dogmatic opinionism, thanks.


----------



## Suburbanist

erbse said:


> Yeah, whatever. Stop trolling this thread with your dogmatic opinionism, thanks.


Me, dogmatic? You are the one who preemptively dismiss modern contemporary architecture altogether

As I said before I like this project for its internal design, it will be a very good structure to put the Dahlem musea collection. Pity 3/4 of the exterior isn't up to par.


----------



## Tiaren

Suburbanist said:


> I think it is fortunate they kept at least one modern façade, it will trigger future unsuspecting visitors to ask why it is that way and then they will be properly made aware they are seeing just a pastiche replica.


Thank God for that! It doesn't bear contemplating if the unsuspecting American or Asian tourist would have been so viciously deceived by this mere copy of a palace. Upon learning the truth at a later point in time, they'd feel utterly betrayed, even violated, having marveled at this treacherous beauty and believing it to be truly ancient.
When I learned Venice's famed Campanile wasn't a renaissance building but an early 20th century copy, I swore to never ever come back to Venice! hno:

You know, *no one f***** cares!* This might be hard to grasp for you but people like to look at beautiful things. Even at newly created beautiful things as you can clearly see with Dresden's Frauenkirche and Neumarkt. People come from very far especially to see the reconstructions.


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## marshalca

The riverside part of the building is terrible, ugly, unimaginative, bad design. I don´t know why there are so many identical buildings in berlin. Once that design is not bad, but the same design over and over again is monotonous. Squares and rectangles! hno:


----------



## erbse

Suburbanist said:


> Me, dogmatic? You are the one who preemptively dismiss modern contemporary architecture altogether
> 
> As I said before I like this project for its internal design, it will be a very good structure to put the Dahlem musea collection. Pity 3/4 of the exterior isn't up to par.


LOL. You claiming being undogmatic and then giving such a statement is just too hilarious.


I'm always accepting and approving of good modern(ist) architecture where it has its place.


----------



## vankatalaan

Suburbanist said:


> Me, dogmatic? You are the one who preemptively dismiss modern contemporary architecture altogether
> 
> As I said before I like this project for its internal design, it will be a very good structure to put the Dahlem musea collection. Pity 3/4 of the exterior isn't up to par.


The problem is that you're missing the part where the reconstruction of the Palace was to make it look the way it was before and to replace a comunist piece of s**t like the Palast der Republik.

That empty space left by the Berliner Stadtschloss was only for a building like that. And making a whole new building would have been ok, but what about the surroundings?

Now I'm supporting the reconstruction of the Palais des Tuileries :banana:


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*New Versus Old*

At least the "reconstructions" in Germany are made to look like the original using the original materials. This is also true where there have been repairs and/or restorations from war damage. Italy is where they must have some law that requires that they make the restored part obvious. If you doubt me, go to some of the Roman ruins where they have used brick to fill in for marble or limestone when they don't have or have not not found a section of a column or something. That not only looks strange, it looks just plain tacky.


----------



## The Eagle

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> At least the "reconstructions" in Germany are made to look like the original using the original materials. This is also true where there have been repairs and/or restorations from war damage. Italy is where they must have some law that requires that they make the restored part obvious. If you doubt me, go to some of the Roman ruins where they have used brick to fill in for marble or limestone when they don't have or have not not found a section of a column or something. That not only looks strange, it looks just plain tacky.


Not always, my friend. Not always.

I have this English TV series that follows a English couple rebuilding a castle in Italy! The Italians there are different. Because of earthquakes they insist on modern stuff that looks old. If you have some time, Watch it. The show is really, really good! Shows the different thinking of people in countries, too.

The show is called Grand designs abroad 

https://youtu.be/KoXUOWYojLo


----------



## Tiaren

Alright, time for more detail shots courtesy of Spreetunnel over in Stadtbild Deutschland Forum. 

Lion skin ornament above one of the entrances:



















The colossal columns are also being erected:





































Here we are over at the main entrance of the palace, the 30m high triumphal arch:










These capitals are a high as a man:


----------



## erbse

Amazing stuff, so geil! :drool: The more ornaments it gets, the more impressive it becomes.
We can only get the idea of the whole thing once it's completed, but I'm sure it'll be very popular with both tourists and Berliners.


----------



## BLACK DAHLIA

Сталин;134511011 said:


> I wonder, what did the man say at 1:05?


..He says:"Look at that d...,talking about Staline.


----------



## krycekuva

@erbse

i heard the collection that will come to the future museum will be as impressive. can't wait to visit it soon.


----------



## Tiaren

krycekuva said:


> @erbse
> 
> i heard the collection that will come to the future museum will be as impressive. can't wait to visit it soon.


Of course! The collection of the Ethnological Museum as well as the Museum of Asian Art are one of the biggest and most important in the world. They were founded by no one less than Alexander von Humboldt who left a big mark in the world. Worldwide many animal species, places, schools and universities are named after him.


----------



## krycekuva

I should know, I'm cuban.


----------



## Spam King

Tiaren said:


> Of course! The collection of the Ethnological Museum as well as the Museum of Asian Art are one of the biggest and most important in the world. They were founded by no one less than Alexander von Humboldt who left a big mark in the world. Worldwide many animal species, places, schools and universities are named after him.


My daughter's school here in Mexico City is named after him.


----------



## Tiaren

Spam King said:


> My daughter's school here in Mexico City is named after him.


See?


----------



## Spam King

Tiaren said:


> See?


Well to be fair, it is a German school, not a Mexican school.


----------



## Tiaren

Spam King said:


> Well to be fair, it is a German school, not a Mexican school.


Lol, I see. XD


----------



## krycekuva

we have museums, schools and protected areas in cuba named after him.... and the university of habana donated a statue to the german humboldt university that is exposed right at the entrance..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:..._Denkmal_-_Humboldt_Universität_zu_Berlin.jpg


----------



## JMGA196

There is a Von Humboldt School here in Guatemala too


----------



## erbse

Some details of the Schlossplatz side:

http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.or...u-als-humboldtforum/&postID=231078#post231078


----------



## Tiaren

Some more impressions in detail:

Schloss Berlin, Nordfassade mit Balustrade by Frank Burchert, on Flickr

Schloss Berlin, Nordfassade by Frank Burchert, on Flickr

DSC_4077.jpg by Frank Burchert, on Flickr

Berliner Schloss, Nordfassade, Mezzanin by Frank Burchert, on Flickr

Schloss Berlin, Fensterverdachung, Paradegeschoss Nordfassade by Frank Burchert, on Flickr

Schloss Berlin, Kranzgesims by Frank Burchert, on Flickr

Schloss Berlin, Balustrade by Frank Burchert, on Flickr


----------



## FrancoJR

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - &quot;Humboldt-Forum&quot; | U/C*

Edit


----------



## White Light

Tiaren said:


> Some more impressions in detail:
> 
> DSC_4077.jpg by Frank Burchert, on Flickr


Aaaaaa loook at thiiiiiis, its incredibleeeee!!
:dance:


----------



## Architecture lover

If it wasn't for the South European civilizations, some (other) people, would have never known how to design a proper building.


----------



## Darryl

Awesome. I almost like the exposed red brick playing against the decorative work to be uncovered instead of covering it with plain stucco cream colored walls. Germany doesn't seem to do that look. We have lots of buildings that look like that in the US.


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## keepthepast

Spam King said:


> My daughter's school here in Mexico City is named after him.





Tiaren said:


> See?





Spam King said:


> Well to be fair, it is a German school, not a Mexican school.


in the late 1900s and at the turn of the 20th century, Mexico had a very noticeable German population and it was common to see public signage in both Spanish and German.


----------



## keepthepast

Darryl said:


> Awesome. I almost like the exposed red brick playing against the decorative work to be uncovered instead of covering it with plain stucco cream colored walls. Germany doesn't seem to do that look. We have lots of buildings that look like that in the US.


The brick does look very good. And in spite of the intent to cover it with stucco, the application/craftsmanship of the alternating rows of half-bricks and full bricks is such that it could be used as the final treatment. The Neues Palais in Potsdam has the brick-forms painted on the flat stucco surface, so the 'look' is not unknown. Obviously to be true to the reconstruction, the surface stucco will be added, but the bricks do show a favorable image.


----------



## storms991

Architecture lover said:


> If it wasn't for the South European civilizations, some (other) people, would have never known how to design a proper building.


Strange comment - East & South Asian civilizations also have rich architectural history.


----------



## Architecture lover

Yeah, but this 'reconstruction' is using elements from the architectural wonders of the South Europeans. They could have used Asiatic elements instead, but they choose to imitate 'colossal' columns (like they always do). 
There is nothing strange in my comment it's just a statement of mine, if there wasn't buildings from the classical period this 'colossal' 'palace' wouldn't even had a proper material to copy, or imitate.


----------



## erbse

^ And your point being? Literally all architecture is both a copy of something that existed before somewhere else and a combination of local/individual treats.


----------



## Tiaren

Architecture lover said:


> If it wasn't for the South European civilizations, some (other) people, would have never known how to design a proper building.


So people didn't build "proper buildings" elsewhere? Don't spread such ignorant bullshit.



Architecture lover said:


> Yeah, but this 'reconstruction' is using elements from the architectural wonders of the South Europeans. They could have used Asiatic elements instead, but they choose to imitate 'colossal' columns (like they always do).
> There is nothing strange in my comment it's just a statement of mine, if there wasn't buildings from the classical period this 'colossal' 'palace' wouldn't even had a proper material to copy, or imitate.


Do you by chance know what came before baroque architecture and before renaissance architecture? Gothic architecture. It originated in Northern Europe and was very different from Greek and Roman architecture since heathen Greeks, Romans and their architecture and art was hated and feared in the Middle Ages. Later the gothic style spread also to Southern European countries and they, as you would call it, "imitated" that style. I guess after the fall of Rome they had forgotten how to "design proper buildings"?
Last but not least, long before the Greeks and Romans there were the Babylonians and Egyptians (which influenced Greek architecture and art by the way) and already they knew how to "design proper buildings."


----------



## erbse

That user is constantly spreading BS and trolls various threads. Don't mind him, it's wasted energy.


----------



## Architecture lover

erbse said:


> ^ And your point being? Literally all architecture is both a copy of something that existed before somewhere else and a combination of local/individual treats.


hmm...sure



Tiaren said:


> So people didn't build "proper buildings" elsewhere? Don't spread such ignorant bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you by chance know what came before baroque architecture and before renaissance architecture? Gothic architecture. It originated in Northern Europe and was very different from Greek and Roman architecture since heathen Greeks, Romans and their architecture and art was hated and feared in the Middle Ages. Later the gothic style spread also to Southern European countries and they, as you would call it, "imitated" that style. I guess after the fall of Rome they had forgotten how to "design proper buildings"?
> Last but not least, long before the Greeks and Romans there were the Babylonians and Egyptians (which influenced Greek architecture and art by the way) and already they knew how to "design proper buildings."


Then why don't you use your Gothic architecture, instead? Why use statues of Neptun or others, instead of Thor? I've never seen a statue of Thor in the South European coast. (thankfully)
Because, trust me there is nothing more inappropriate than a statue of the goddess Athena/Minerva placed in Vienna. You should put your Locki, (or whatever) somewhere instead of Minerva, and please don't get mad, I'm only telling you that you should stick to your stuff, some sort of suggestion. (you've said it yourself that you almost have better)


----------



## erbse

Your posts are among the most ridiculous things I've read on SSC. But well, keep on, it's quite entertaining.


----------



## vankatalaan

Shall we talk about the Duomo of Milano perhaps? One of the most beautiful Gothic and Neogothic cathedrals in Europe and it's in: ITALY.


----------



## pccvspw999

^^ Yes, but it's unique. And I'm not sure that northern Italy can be seen as part of southern Europe....


----------



## Architecture lover

Boys and girls, let's don't get off topic, we are commenting the palace and the places where the inspiration came from, obviously from the heathen Romans and Greeks, like Tiaren says himself.


----------



## Tiaren

Some more fresh impressions of the City Palace courtesy of Spreetunnel of the Stadtbild Deutschland Forum:



























































































Great work by the artisans and construction workers. They are of course all Italians and Greeks since barbaric Germans are too dumb to read the baroque designs and properly place one stone on the other.


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## BLACK DAHLIA

Wow!!...very comforting to see that we still have the savoir faire to build such a magnificent building(and I was pretty skeptical at first!)
However,it makes me sad that some are preaching an architecture revisionism(germanophobia?)
I did fall in love with architecture as a kid,visiting Potsdam Palaces with my parents;I was in amazing Munchen couple months ago and plan to travel on the Romantic Road very soon...Well,call me a dumb as I always thought German were among the greatest builders/artists!...


----------



## mantamad

BLACK DAHLIA said:


> Wow!!...very comforting to see that we still have the savoir faire to build such a magnificent building(and I was pretty skeptical at first!)
> However,it makes me sad that some are preaching an architecture revisionism(germanophobia?)
> I did fall in love with architecture as a kid,visiting Potsdam Palaces with my parents;I was in amazing Munchen couple months ago and plan to travel on the Romantic Road very soon...Well,call me a dumb as I always thought German were among the greatest builders/artists!...


I agree. If the cost of building something with flair is not excessively greater than building yet another glass box, then that is money well spent.


----------



## keepthepast

^^^^

And in the long run, cheaper...after everyone realizes the error in building a glass box and then decide to tear it down and start over.


----------



## BLACK DAHLIA

keepthepast said:


> ^^^^
> 
> And in the long run, cheaper...after everyone realizes the error in building a glass box and then decide to tear it down and start over.



What's wrong with glass boxes?..isn't the NeueNationalGallery one?
Classic architecture vs modern/post modern architecture doesn't make sens.
When I stay in Berlin I enjoy Potsdamer Platz and its world renowned signatures(Jahn,Piano,Rogers,Gehry..)as much as Berlin Mitte and its amazing Museumsinsel!


----------



## Titan Man

BLACK DAHLIA said:


> What's wrong with glass boxes?..isn't the NeueNationalGallery one?
> Classic architecture vs modern/post modern architecture doesn't make sens.
> When I stay in Berlin I enjoy Potsdamer Platz and its world renowned signatures(Jahn,Piano,Rogers,Gehry..)as much as Berlin Mitte and its amazing Museumsinsel!


Not all modern buildings are bad, especially buildings of Potsdamer Platz (one of my favourite European squares), but the modern wing of the Palace is definitely not worthy of its neighbour wings. It's just bland and uninspired. One can just look at the photos from the construction site, unfinished baroque facade looks way better than almost finished modern wing.


----------



## BLACK DAHLIA

...it's all about integrity of the building:would you wear Nike shoes with your Boss suit?..


----------



## Titan Man

Well, that's why I don't like it very much, it doesn't integrate very well with the rest of the building. It looks like it was added on later. They could've made it much, much better, something that blends well with the rest of the building, but also looks contemporary and modern. Oh well, at least we didn't get some crazy Libeskind-esque "masterpiece".


----------



## Spam King

Titan Man said:


> Oh well, at least we didn't get some crazy Libeskind-esque "masterpiece".


Or a Frank Gehry monstrosity tacked on...


----------



## Spam King

BLACK DAHLIA said:


> ...it's all about integrity of the building:would you wear Nike shoes with your Boss suit?..


People actually do that. :bash:


----------



## BLACK DAHLIA

Spam King said:


> Or a Frank Gehry monstrosity tacked on...



Sorry King of Spam,but Gehry is,according to many,the greatest architect alive!
However,being tasteless is not considered as a crime...unless your hero,if elected,hires you as his devoted Goebbels!..


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Conversations like these are why I try to avoid this thread


----------



## BLACK DAHLIA

ThatOneGuy said:


> Conversations like these are why I try to avoid this thread



I remember a time when all the forumers had to suffer your teammates heavy jokes(LAF2 being your leader)
You probably feel lonesome today!..


----------



## Architecture lover

The overall thread is such a mess, every time someone writes something that doesn't prize this apparently 'colossal' thing, attacks come from every side from people who think that Gothic is the epitome of how you think churches and cathedrals should be build, but sadly newer heard of Byzantine architecture, and when I say Byzantine I don't think some tasteless Russian, or Bulgarian perception of the Byzantine style, but rather the original genuine terracotta marvels.


----------



## Tiaren

Architecture lover said:


> The overall thread is such a mess, every time someone writes something that doesn't prize this apparently 'colossal' thing, attacks come from every side from people who think that Gothic is the epitome of how you think churches and cathedrals should be build, but sadly newer heard of Byzantine architecture, and when I say Byzantine I don't think some tasteless Russian, or Bulgarian perception of the Byzantine style, but rather the original genuine terracotta marvels.


Wow, you got some nerve... :nuts: You are the one that f***** up this thread. You came in here attacking Northern Europeans for not being able to build "proper buildings", now you attack Eastern Europeans. Seriously, just get out of here, *ASAP*.

Some more detail photos of the triumphal gate courtesy of Spreetunnel again:


----------



## Architecture lover

Tiaren said:


> Wow, you got some nerve... :nuts: You are* the one that f***** up this thread*. You came in here attacking Northern Europeans for not being able to build "proper buildings", now you attack Eastern Europeans. Seriously, just get out of here, *ASAP*.


Of course I'm leaving this thread where everything seems to be extremely politicized, even my posts and ironically I'm the one that ruined it although I remember people claiming that Barcelona is a Mediterranean wasteland (the home of some of the biggest architectural wonders), people classifying Romanesque architecture as Croatian and similar nonsenses. Bye. Enjoy the aesthetics of the Corinthian order.


----------



## erbse

No, it's not. Europe is full of buildings that stood for centuries, some towns even have their full stock of a certain time dating back to the Middle Ages (see Venice, Prague, Florence, Rome, Paris, Rothenburg, Lübeck, Amsterdam; but also much poorer places). People intended to build for eternity until post-war industrialisation, and they often achieved this, using solid bricks, stone, wood, slate and so on.

Don't lie to yourself, general building quality is much, much lower today, and on purpose so (often built for short investment cycles or political ideology). There's plastic, cheap concrete, dispersion varnish, asbestos etc. and ill-thought engineering in so many buildings, a large stock of them won't survive.


----------



## Suburbanist

^^ Do you honestly believe they had indoor plumbing with electrical pumping in the Middle Ages? Most of these "old" buildings are patched-up structures with dozens of interventions. 

When well-cared for, concrete is an amazing building material. Just look at Roman ruins where they exist! Reinforced concrete is even better.

In any case, I'm totally in favor of this "buildings-as-fashion" mentality: built them, use for a couple decades, and tear most of them down to build something else further down the road.


----------



## erbse

I didn't say concrete is bad per se, you need to listen. I said they often use _bad quality_ concrete these days, among other lesser-quality materials, techniques and aesthetics. Roughly 90% of today's construction activity today isn't sustainable imho, while ~90% of earlier times was. Even temporary(-thought) structures like Expo buildings including the Eiffel Tower are still standing, for centuries now, iconical for their times.

Constantly tearing down buildings is one of the worst misguided principles of modernism. Complete bonkers. But I'm not surprised you support anything that bears your short-sighted ideological dogma.


----------



## Adde

All buildings will fall down in time if not cared for. Most buildings are not destroyed because they are poorly built, but because they are torn down or because they burn down. A lot of shoddily built houses have stood since the middle ages, if they've been cared for relatively regularly. In Stockholm's old town, many medieval buildings lack their own side walls, having been built directly against their neighboring house and using the already existing wall. They're also often poorly grounded, and many have subsided precariously over the centuries. Their relatively plastic building materials (brick and wood) have saved them from collapse, but they're not really "well built" according to modern standards.


----------



## erbse

You're contradicting yourself. They don't even need to be "well built" or "according to modern standards", as long as they use quality materials and techniques which sustain them for centuries. 
Look at Venice. A town built like that on top of the lagoon in "modern standards" (steel, concrete that hardly breathes) would corrode worringly in just a few years. 

Traditional materials and techniques work much better in most conditions. Because we're surrounded by nature even when we create 'artificial' places, using natural materials that adapt to any condition within their climate makes sense.


----------



## Asparuhce

:cheers:


----------



## dodo00

*Re: Tiaren and Erbse*



Tiaren said:


> ...or maybe you are overanalyzing this and the Spree facade is just Stella's preferred style to design facades.
> 
> Older works by Stella: (pics)
> 
> Notice the strong similarities to the Spree facade and the other modern parts of the Humboldt Forum? Stella prefers it monumental, angular, repetitive and austere but with a certain grace and elegance and a nod to neoclassicism actually, not baroque. The baroque facades of the City Palace are also highly irregular and asymmetric, playfully segmented with many protusions and setbacks, differing window shapes and sizes and not repetitive and boring at all, even if you strip it of it's ornamentation.


While it's possible that I'm over-analyzing, I am serious in that this sort of complicated consideration DOES go into any respectable modern buildings. Unfortunately, modern design is largely a world of thought processes inaccessible to most people, because the architects don't exactly project their design concept to the public, so nobody knows what the buildings are supposed to represent. Rest assured, though, if Stella is an architect of any sort of good standing among the architecture community, he's not just making these designs up out of thin air; if he is, then he's a terrible architect and should not be taken seriously by his colleagues.

Now, those buildings you posted are admittedly hideous and don't appear at first glance to have any design intent whatsoever. Here's a good rule of thumb. If a modern building is very well designed, a few people who actually take the time will be able to understand its function and concept just by studying it for a bit. I was able to determine what I see to be a real meaning behind the Spree facade; therefore, even if ALL Stella's other buildings turned out to be meaningless, the spree facade would still be a good piece of modern architecture.

Also, I disagree with your assessment of the Stadtschloss; as nice as I'll admit they are to look at, the massings of the baroque facades are very poorly proportioned and the shapes of every single facade are results of haphazard circumstance, not of a good central design. Also, take a look at pictures of the stadtschloss's concrete shell before they clad it with brick and stone. It was so repetitive and ugly it's hard to even describe; the promised added decoration is the only reason everyone here was and is praising it; imagine if it had been left a concrete shell!



erbse said:


> True.
> 
> In addition I'd add, *that modernist architecture in general isn't less wasteful than classical, but much more*. Instead using natural, sustainable materials it often goes for worse quality artificial materials that age badly, and demand much more maintenance and renewal.
> The same goes for the aesthetics, 'contemporary' and considered-modern architecture often chooses expressions that are anything but timeless, and are considered outdated in the course of just a few years. That increases the pressure to overdo or even demolish buildings after just some years. And then there's floorplans, oh my gosh they screwed up so bad in this regard in the past few decades, way too many buildings since post-war times are highly impractical and inefficient.
> 
> In that regard, we live in highly wasteful times. While many medieval, baroque, classicist etc. buildings still work greatly today and are kept with care, I highly doubt many modernist buildings will enjoy this fate.
> 
> I won't over-generalize though, of course there's very good quality modernist buildings, too. But while high quality and durability is the rule in traditional/classical architecture (due to sustainable materials and techniques), it's just an exception in modernism since the second half of the 20th century.


Erbse, I agree with you that there are bad modernist buildings and very good ones, but I am going to have to take a shot at that "rule" of old buildings being high quality and durable. Versailles itself was very shoddily built; the walls were filled with rubble that all settled down over the centuries and had to be refilled. The Eisenhower Executive Office Building in D.C. was very well built, but the architect was known for hiding poor massing with excessive detail. The architect's buildings were very poorly designed in this way, even if they were built to last. The Stadtschloss itself had such a ridiculously poor layout it was pathetic, as enjoyable as that must have made it to explore.

Also, I'm not sure we're discussing sustainability in a manner deep enough for it to even be relevant. First of all, you cannot judge sustainability in terms of 40 years ago. There is incredible progress being made. Any respectable modern architect will make all of their buildings sustainable as a base rule, not as something to brag about; notice the great energy efficiency of the Humboldt forum? Respectable modern architects will also make their buildings fit current programs, but also will ensure a wide variety of possible alternative uses in the design; the Forum again reflects this ideal as well as it could. Modern architects do try. About those buildings that become quickly outdated: Buildings that seek to shock people through their weirdness or just latching onto a showy fad are mostly trash. Though they are the ones most visible, that doesn't mean they should be representing architecture as a whole; the good ones will seek timelessness by deriving from surroundings and purpose instead of seeking to be an ugly landmark.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that older buildings were sustainable out of convenience, not out of good design. Convenience and cost, not intentionally poor design, is the real reason modern buildings are often so unsustainable.

I believe you are confusing modern construction by developers and retailers with modern architecture; urban sprawl barely even qualifies, if it does at all, as actual architecture. I just want to close by saying that just as we like to judge old architecture by the good examples that survived the years, we should judge modern architecture by the best examples that really demonstrate the state of the art, and not derive our attitudes from those people cursed with designing cookie cutter Best Buys at the lowest possible price.

I'll add that I'm really enjoying this discussion, even if most readers seem to be siding against me. :cheers:


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## Strykr

Berlin is still ugly. It never recovered from WW2.


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## keepthepast

Strykr said:


> Berlin is still ugly. It never recovered from WW2.


Well, the city certainly never recovered its former status as, arguably, the world's most beautiful city. But it is definitely unfair to write it off by saying it is ugly now. Sure, many ugly parts exist that were built for dire needs after WWII. But an huge percent has been rethought, rebuilt, remodeled, and reborn...presenting a newer, beautiful, and very interesting metropolis.


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## dodo00

I hope I didn't come across too strongly against the Stadtschloss in the past two posts. I fully support the project: Restoring the facades is a good idea because it helps to reunify the core of the city, because the palace's presence was for so long integral to its surroundings, and because the city has lost so much of its history that I think it's important to help remind people of what was. Even if I see baroque facades as wasteful and objectively poorly designed, I do really like looking at them and am happy that the people of Berlin get to look at them again too, and baroque is one of my favorite architectural styles. I just wanted to say that as long as it was necessary to have a modern Spree facade, what we got was not as bad as everybody thinks, and that building highly decorated buildings _*only*_ makes sense and is sustainable if they are reconstructions of highly architecturally or historically significant buildings, of which the Stadtschloss was definitely both, or if it could help restore the atmosphere of a historic area, which the Stadtschloss is also doing. If these conditions are not met, the replacements, due to economic constraints, will probably just end up looking like this:








Notice in this picture that old elements are still being used in architecture even in present day? There's pediments, buttresses, base rustication, the areas around the doors are made to be taller and set forward in a forced perspective illusion to make it look like there's a huge portico, there's horizontal bands of concrete imitating stone cornices. This is what happens when people can't leave old forms behind in a rapidly changing world; this is why new buildings should just suck it up and act modern, being honest about the times and conditions they arose from. Again though, the Stadtschloss is a great project and I didn't want to devalue it in any way.


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## Adde

erbse said:


> You're contradicting yourself. They don't even need to be "well built" or "according to modern standards", as long as they use quality materials and techniques which sustain them for centuries.
> Look at Venice. A town built like that on top of the lagoon in "modern standards" (steel, concrete that hardly breathes) would corrode worringly in just a few years.
> 
> Traditional materials and techniques work much better in most conditions. Because we're surrounded by nature even when we create 'artificial' places, using natural materials that adapt to any condition within their climate makes sense.


There are no "quality materials and techniques" that will sustain a house for centuries. All houses need human care to last that long. There's nothing to suggest that buildings with "modern" materials won't last just as long, given the same care. 

But the quality of a building isn't just if it's going to stand for 500 years (and again, most buildings will if they're taken care of). Buildings in the past were, for the most part, difficult to heat effectively, drafty, very flammable and so on. Old buildings that still stand has generally been updated with better insulation, modern heating systems, sprinkler systems etc. 

It's very possible that Venice is a special case that could only have been build using traditional materials. At the same time, Venice is sinking as the wooden piling holding it up is decomposing because of changing conditions in the lagoon.


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## rudicantfail

Strykr said:


> Berlin is still ugly. It never recovered from WW2.



Try opening your eyes!!! There are parts of Berlin which are fantastic; other parts, thanks to our "Commie friends" :down: which are terrible. But, Berlin is a wonderful city, and is finding it's own terrific character. There are some wonderful buildings in Berlin, both old and new. Less of the negative vibes, and look with un bias eyes.

*Liebe Berlin.*


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## MONUMENTA

The technique allows us to build much stronger, durable, sustainable and intelligent, at a lower price than in ancient times, when there were far fewer skills and experience and brute strength, hardness of materials and wall thickness buildings, was the basis of all with countless disasters

Another thing is that to reduce costs, today, especially topcoats, are not the best or not should be, because companies lose future profits for repairs and that the speculate and craving for more lead us to shoot down it modern, which is not yet protected, for money.


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## Jasper90

erbse said:


> You're contradicting yourself. They don't even need to be "well built" or "according to modern standards", as long as they use quality materials and techniques which sustain them for centuries.
> Look at Venice. A town built like that on top of the lagoon in "modern standards" (steel, concrete that hardly breathes) would corrode worringly in just a few years.
> 
> Traditional materials and techniques work much better in most conditions. Because we're surrounded by nature even when we create 'artificial' places, using natural materials that adapt to any condition within their climate makes sense.


Venice needs a constant, continuous, never-ending maintenance to remain standing. Up until the half of last century, it was very common to just replace buildings or "renovate" by basically tearing down everything and making it newer but cheaper. And yeah, lots of concrete in this.

In addition to that, conditions of life in Venetian houses were very bad until that time. The exceptionally high tide in 1966 basically evicted thousands of people from their households, forcing them to abandon the ground floors (which are now shops, usually).

Only in the last 30 years, modern materials were basically banned as long as there's a traditional alternative. There is: you can cut the wall (to prevent humidity) by inserting a line of stone between two layers of bricks, instead of putting a plastic sheet or injecting resins. You can make plaster with traditional materials, knowing that it will start crumbling already 1-2 years after laying it. 

Only now these traditional methods have become widespread and they're replacing concrete and other innovations. In the '70s you just couldn't expect households with 13 people in 80 m2 to be able to afford buying Istrian stone for a proper traditionalist cut of the wall. This has a huge cost, which is nowadays basically compensated by our taxes, and I'm glad about it.

These traditional solutions were basically absent in most of the houses, which were really of poor quality, and in fact they often used to demolish the building from 13th century to replace with a 1910's building with printed concrete decorations, or with simple plain windows. Up until modernism, you just accepted having mold all over your house, whereas only wealthy people could afford to have a high-quality house.


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## erbse

Perhaps some literature needs to be put in here, but that's reserved for another while...


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## artObserver

I would call the eastern facade a neutral one - neither beautiful, nor extremely ugly. But I am really disappointed about the fact that due to the design peculiarities (especially intermediate floor constructions) the While Hall and Chapel will never be restored.









source


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## erbse

Never say never though... 

Such things were done before and they will get done at Berlin's Stadtschloss in time.


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## MONUMENTA

Very happy Tag der Deutschen Einheit


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## keepthepast

artObserver said:


> I would call the eastern facade a neutral one - neither beautiful, nor extremely ugly. But I am really disappointed about the fact that due to the design peculiarities (especially intermediate floor constructions) the While Hall and Chapel will never be restored.
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This view of the White Hall is looking north from the Chapel, with the windows on the left facing the front of the palace and those on the far side of the image facing the Lustgarten. 

The last time the room was filled for a grand affair, with the royal family and hundreds of Europe's royal guests, was the wedding dinner for Wilhelm II's only daughter, Viktoria Luise, on May 24, 1913.


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## Tiaren

Some new but unfortunately a bit huge (sorry for that) images directly from the official Facebook page of the Wiederaufbau Berliner Schloss Gesellschaft/Society: https://www.facebook.com/wiederaufbau.berliner.schloss














































View down Unter den Linden, which is still pretty much under construction too:


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## erbse

Thanks Tiaren! You can bulk-upload and downsize pictures at: www.abload.de 
It only takes a minute.


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## Darryl

Out of the 3 baroque sides, what percentage of them are at this point completely covered in brick vs. bare grey concrete?


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## Tiaren

Darryl said:


> Out of the 3 baroque sides, what percentage of them are at this point completely covered in brick vs. bare grey concrete?


They said 80% a while ago. I think that excludes the dome too.

Some more recent impressions directly from the official Berliner Schloss page: http://berliner-schloss.de/blog/baustellen-update-vom-05-10-2016/


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal site*

Is there any news on what they are now proposing for the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal site now that they have shelved that modernistic monstrosity? I don't expect to see the memorial restored, but something more compatible with the Stadtschloss would be nice.


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## Darryl

*fate of the Neptune Fountain*



Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Is there any news on what they are now proposing for the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal site now that they have shelved that modernistic monstrosity? I don't expect to see the memorial restored, but something more compatible with the Stadtschloss would be nice.


Speaking of that site, wouldn't the Neptune Fountain be nice there??

I asked this on the Marx-Engels-Forum, Marien Quarter and Molkenmarket thread but haven't heard anything yet. Does anyone know of any plans to clean/restore and move the Neptune Fountain?

I feel like I remember a long time ago hearing there were plans to move it. Does anyone have details? I feel like it's setting doesn't do it justice. It needs to be in a place of more prominence. It is stunning, just needs to be cleaned/repaired.


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## JustinHerman

The issue of the Neptune Fountain was addressed not very long ago in this forum. At the time, I was mildly disappointed to read that there were no plans to move the fountain from its present site. Of course, the news of Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal above shows once again that plans can change with bewildering rapidity.


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## flusispieler

Darryl said:


> I asked this on the Marx-Engels-Forum, Marien Quarter and Molkenmarket thread but haven't heard anything yet. Does anyone know of any plans to clean/restore and move the Neptune Fountain?
> 
> I feel like I remember a long time ago hearing there were plans to move it. Does anyone have details? I feel like it's setting doesn't do it justice. It needs to be in a place of more prominence. It is stunning, just needs to be cleaned/repaired.


There are plans to move the Neptune Fountain to it's original place right in front of the South Facade (Portal II) as far as I know.

upload (dot) wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Berlin_-_Neptunbrunnen_-_um_1900.jpg

(sorry, can't post pictures, yet)


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## erbse

@Neptunbrunnen:
It's not decided yet. Oddly, the current social-democratic senator of construction in Berlin is a Swiss modernist pighead called Regula Lüscher, who does what she can to prevent any historical look-and-feel around Berlin's Stadtschloss, among others in the senate and the administration of the Mitte district. 

But we keep fighting for the Neptune Fountain's return, promised. kay:


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## ELH

erbse said:


> @Neptunbrunnen:
> It's not decided yet. Oddly, the current social-democratic senator of construction in Berlin is a Swiss modernist pighead called Regula Lüscher, who does what she can to prevent any historical look-and-feel around Berlin's Stadtschloss, among others in the senate and the administration of the Mitte district.
> 
> But we keep fighting for the Neptune Fountain's return, promised. kay:


So Regula Lüscher is against historical looks-and-feels and she is against Berlin highrises - two things I´m pro.

What is *she* pro? The sprawl of late 20th century european modernism?

What is a swiss social democrat doing heading up a Berlin office in authoritarian terms anyways. I´d kick her out! 

Maybe she didn´t get her will in Switzerland, with growth-sick villages like Basel and Geneva building taller towers than Berlin´s tallest, so she tried to inflict her will upon someone else.


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## 1772

I hope they will fix the one modernist side of the Schloss and make that classical aswell. 
Also, I hope they restore the interior and have a new Hohzenhollern Prince bwecome German Emperor. 

But first, restore the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal. 

I wonder if AfD will make all this happen when they win?


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## The Blond Guy

Well euh..... ? What should one answer to that?

Keep dreaming.

( I'm for restoring the kaiser Wilhelm memorial though. )


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## erbse

1772: Such statements aren't really helpful in current socio-cultural conditions of Germany and Berlin. Please refrain from them, better delete them. Some lefty parliamentarian from Berlin might read it and go bonkers. Keep in mind, Berlin gets a red-red-green government coalition soon.


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## Architecture lover

1772 said:


> I hope they will fix the one modernist side of the Schloss and make that classical aswell.
> Also, I hope they restore the interior and have a new Hohzenhollern Prince bwecome *German Emperor*.
> 
> But first, restore the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal.
> 
> I wonder if AfD will make all this happen when they win?


Should I laugh, or should I cry? (it refers to the whole thread, though)


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## ELH

Architecture lover said:


> Should I laugh, or should I cry? (it refers to the whole thread, though)


Off course you should laugh. 
But why the need to make a "roadstand" if you find some opinion incomprehensible? Don´t be "smallish"! 
A charm of the thread is the colourfulness of different people realistic or immature imagination.

Off course, the Hohenzollerns should never return to prominence. The cowardly and stricktly unnecessary abdication of their line created a vacuum without which Hitler may not have come to power.


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## 1772

erbse said:


> 1772: Such statements aren't really helpful in current socio-cultural conditions of Germany and Berlin. Please refrain from them, better delete them. Some lefty parliamentarian from Berlin might read it and go bonkers. Keep in mind, Berlin gets a red-red-green government coalition soon.


I get what you mean, but you mustn't let the left keep the narrative. 
Good people with good values will never win if they're afraid of bad people. 
One must stand up for what one thinks and believes. 

Also, I should say that AfD did well in Berlin, so not everyone is a green lefty. 



Architecture lover said:


> Should I laugh, or should I cry? (it refers to the whole thread, though)


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...chy-Germany-help-spread-feel-good-factor.html


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## erbse

We just shouldn't get too political here, that's what I mean. And not make connections like "hey, look we're rebuilding the Hohenzollern Palace, why not put the Hohenzollern royals back in charge while we're at it?"... 

That's just bonkers and damages all kinds of reconstruction efforts in Germany and elsewhere, because it makes us look like revisionist douchebags.


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## Titan Man

Exactly! Reconstructions should not be connected to any political force, they should be a way of enriching country's cultural, architectural and artistical value.


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## Tiaren

Well said, guys, and now let's marvel at some more recent impressions of the construction by courtesy of Spreetunnel of the Stadtbild Deutschland Forum: 
http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.or...u-als-humboldtforum/&postID=235487#post235487










What an imposing view this will be when everything is finished.


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## Darryl

Wow, these last ones are great Tiaren. Thanks!


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## angrybird2411

Follow me. I really love the ancient architecture, specially the Baroque and the German´s barroque and the wonderful palaces of Potsdam, Stuttgart, Webestein, Wurzburg and Muenster, and I annoys more the use of reinforced concrete in this type of reconstruction, where the facade is rebuilt so originality, in solid brick, and even more when the interiors are reconstructed.


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## Ludi

_my own pics_


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## pendolasco

I've been checking webcams on Schloss since I went to Berlin last April... is it only my impression or are the works very slow in the last month?


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## Joe Whalen 7

*The Size of the Thing!*

It's only when you see photos of the building itself like those posted by Ludi with people in the picture do you realize just how big the palace is! The building would be large even if it had been built half the scale that it is. When you have windows that are twice the height or more of the average man, you have a really large structure.


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## Ludi

dubaibobby said:


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*pics ©dubaibobby*


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## DRD4-7R

When will be finish?


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## vankatalaan

2019 is the opening date. Probably the outside will be ready by the end of next year if the keep this pace


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## Tiaren

A recent tour through the City Palace/Humboldt Forum:






The rooms are gigantic... O:


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## erbse

Fabulous video Tiaren!

The Palace webcams just minutes ago:

West









South









Schlüterhof / courtyard


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## erbse

2 days ago, from the Berlin forum:



noisrevid said:


> Aufnahmen von vor 2 Tagen, in goldenem Abendlicht
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## Ludi

Long time havent visited the Schloss. 










Portal V 



























































































Eosanderportal - südliche Eckkartusche





































Portal II


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## mopper

The scale and the quality are unbelievable! Hope to see more renovations and reconstructions and other places!


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## Fudgis

Thankyou so much for the latest photos, giving us a much better impression of progress and the sheer quality of detail in the new sculpted elements, the stone-carvers are doing a superb job! I was especially intrigued to see two original caryatid figures being used above the portal on the north side, is this the first instance of fragments of the original stonework of the palace being restored to their former positions?


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## Ludi

I am not sure, if they are the first elements... They use more old elements for sure.

First they didnt wanted to, but then they changed their opinion.


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## ThatOneGuy

Where were those old original pieces kept all these years?


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## erbse

In various magazines across the city


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## Ludi

Not only there and not only in Berlin.

Also in other parts of Germany, some pieces also have been founded in private gardens, etc. 

After the demolition of the old castle some people have taken some elements for their gardens. 

http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/orig...t-koenigskrone-zwischen-blumenbeeten-15191764


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## Ludi

360° view from the top of the cupola. :cheers:


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## Ludi

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leperd said:


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## Ludi

dubaibobby said:


> Bilder von mir


_pics ©SSC-User dubaibobby_


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## Darryl

South










It's weird, this looks curved. I know it's not though.


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## erbse

It's a slightly fisheyed webcam to show the panoramic view of the whole facade.


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## The Eagle

*This is Gipson!*













































*They are building a positive, to take measurements *



























*Copies from the Original surviving stones *









*For the portal 5*

















source Schloss Bau Huette


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## Père Pendiculaire

erbse said:


> It's a slightly fisheyed webcam to show the panoramic view of the whole facade.


I better think it comes from the merge of several cams, differently orientated... you can see these "south face" cameras from the east face view..


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## Soheilkb

So it's not really stone ?!


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## TM_Germany

I think some of it is stucco and some of it is stone


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Reusing Statues?*

Is the plan to restore and reuse the statues that are shown at the top of this page or will they just serve as models for new ones? These are in the first photo posted by "The Eagle."


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## PoppyThankful

Already donated


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## Xorcist

Soheilkb said:


> So it's not really stone ?!


Yes it is all stone. The pictures above show alot of gypsum modells


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## Сталин

It looks beautiful, this building is more so a piece of art.


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## socrates#1fan

Сталин;137214207 said:


> It looks beautiful, this building is more so a piece of art.


One wonders if the people of Berlin will want more reconstructions after seeing this beauty return.


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## The Eagle

Soheilkb said:


> So it's not really stone ?!


*Of course it will be stone. Those are gypsum copies! They take those as 1:1 copies that they can change. Based on those copies the stonemasons make the real deal!*


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## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Is the plan to restore and reuse the statues that are shown at the top of this page or will they just serve as models for new ones? These are in the first photo posted by "The Eagle."


All statues adorning the palace will be copies.
The original statues will be displayed in the lapidarium:


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## HaracinaBabush

:cheers:


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## vankatalaan

socrates#1fan said:


> One wonders if the people of Berlin will want more reconstructions after seeing this beauty return.




Any ideas?


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## Tiaren

socrates#1fan said:


> One wonders if the people of Berlin will want more reconstructions after seeing this beauty return.


The next reconstruction will be right on the opposite of the Palace, the Bauakademie:










The German government already granted the funds for the reconstruction. Right now there still is only scaffolding with it's visualisation printed on it:










The beautiful square in front of it had been already reconstructed a few years ago:


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## Roman_P

^^
Great news!
But one corner of the former (and future!) building does exist, doesn't it?


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## erbse

Yes, the corner of the Bauakademie was reconstructed a few years ago already to display the look of the facades created by Schinkel.


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## Pamparam

what about the pink pipe around?
will it remain there?


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## pccvspw999

^^ No. These are only pipeline for groundwaters to be taken away from the nearby construction sites, in order to keep them dry. Once the works are finished, the pipelines will disappear.
These are pink/blu just to make them look more gentile, and to know where the water inside has been pumped off.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Construction Methods*

I notice that the workers seem to have put up large sections of plywood to enclose some of the openings in the Schluterhof and other places where they are working. In America, that would be done to reduce wind on the site and allow for some heating in the work areas. Is that the same there in Germany?


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## rudicantfail

Tiaren said:


> All statues adorning the palace will be copies.
> The original statues will be displayed in the lapidarium:


Were the original statues found buried in the Eastern suburbs of Berlin, or am I thinking of something else?


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## turtlebay

Would I be right in saying all the brick work is done apart from the Schluterhof? What's left is stone?


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## nur.thalea

really nice park tilings there


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## Сталин

- edit: brings nothing to the table


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## Saxonia

It is rather unusual that the Bund finances the complete reconstruction of such a building. Yet in Berlin, it is kinda different. The whole museum island has little to nothing to do with the State of Berlin. All museums are run by the Prussian heritage foundation which itself is run by the Bund and all german states together. 
So it seems to me, that federal politicians are very unhappy about the efforts made by the Berlin state to designe the surroundings of the Castle. So they decided to offer a lot of money to get things going the way they like it. They also offered to finance the reconstruction of the colonnades of the imperial national monument as well as the relocation and renovation of the Neptun fountain. Both is not appreciated by the new left leaning senate.


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## Titan Man

Saxonia said:


> It is a rather unusual that the Bund finances the complete reconstruction of such a building. Yet in Berlin, it is kinda different. The whole museum island has little to nothing to do with the State of Berlin. All museums are run by the Prussian heritage foundation which itself is run by the Bund and all german states together.
> So it seems to me, that federal politicians are very unhappy about the efforts made by the Berlin state to designe the surroundings of the Castle. So they decided to offer a lot of money to get things going the way they like it. *They also offered to finance the reconstruction of the colonnades of the imperial national monument as well as the relocation and renovation of the Neptun fountain. Both is not appreciated by the new left leaning senate.*


But will it still happen? Can Senate actually stop those projects from happening? I am quite enthusiastic about the colonnades and the Neptune fountain, we all knew Bauakademie was going to happen eventually, while these two were quite improbable. Also, I can't imagine them putting the statue of the Kaiser Wilhelm I there, it will be interesting to see what will replace it.


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## Saxonia

If Berlin says no then it won't happen.


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## MojoRisin123

rudicantfail said:


> Were the original statues found buried in the Eastern suburbs of Berlin, or am I thinking of something else?


I think you were refering to the Lenin's colossal statue.


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## Сталин

Saxonia said:


> It is rather unusual that the Bund finances the complete reconstruction of such a building. Yet in Berlin, it is kinda different. The whole museum island has little to nothing to do with the State of Berlin. All museums are run by the Prussian heritage foundation which itself is run by the Bund and all german states together.
> So it seems to me, that federal politicians are very unhappy about the efforts made by the Berlin state to designe the surroundings of the Castle. So they decided to offer a lot of money to get things going the way they like it. They also offered to finance the reconstruction of the colonnades of the imperial national monument as well as the relocation and renovation of the Neptun fountain. Both is not appreciated by the new left leaning senate.


I hope they are voted out, the communist left don't care about history, and only want to do as Marx said, which is to destroy the past, so that we can never go back to our roots! Like with killing the Czar, and all royal families. The only good thing about buildings, is that they can be rebuilt.


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## UrbanMyth

Сталин;137356290 said:


> I hope they are voted out, the communist left don't care about history, and only want to do as Marx said, which is to destroy the past, so that we can never go back to our roots! Like with killing the Czar, and all royal families. The only good thing about buildings, is that they can be rebuilt.


The Fascist Right has never destroyed historic buildings? Right wing nationalists didn't destroy Warsaw; bleeding heart liberals firebombed Dresden and Rotterdam? LOL. 

Clearly you aren't American. If you were, you'd see American cities decimated by Right-wing Capitalists who destroy the landscape and buildings with NO concern for history. 

You can wrap yourself in a nationalist, Trumpian, flag, and congratulate yourself for thinking you are masters of the universe, but rewriting history to comport to your narrow, hate-filled, agenda, is too easy to expose.


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## vankatalaan

Exactly. Check what they did to Penn Station in NYC


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## UrbanMyth

vankatalaan said:


> Exactly. Check what they did to Penn Station in NYC


The list is endless...and they conveniently forget Warsaw, Dresden, Rotterdam, etc.. Cue the revisionists who will now claim that Hitler was a "bleeding-heart liberal leftist".


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## vankatalaan

Rotterdam was way too destroyed and the paradigm in the 50-60s was to innovate, not to rebuild


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## Сталин

UrbanMyth said:


> The Fascist Right has never destroyed historic buildings? Right wing nationalists didn't destroy Warsaw; bleeding heart liberals firebombed Dresden and Rotterdam? LOL.
> 
> Clearly you aren't American. If you were, you'd see American cities decimated by Right-wing Capitalists who destroy the landscape and buildings with NO concern for history.
> 
> You can wrap yourself in a nationalist, Trumpian, flag, and congratulate yourself for thinking you are masters of the universe, but rewriting history to comport to your narrow, hate-filled, agenda, is too easy to expose.


Those were the Allied B-17 that did the work, and cities destroyed during war for strategic advantages shouldn't count.

Mostly all historic buildings in Germany were preserved by the extreme right national socialists.

Communists are the ones who are rewriting history to divide everything into classes. "Oh Cinderella is a hate filled story of class warefare!" Please, get real.



UrbanMyth said:


> The list is endless...and they conveniently forget Warsaw, Dresden, Rotterdam, etc.. Cue the revisionists who will now claim that Hitler was a "bleeding-heart liberal leftist".


That was during WWII, and those cities were mostly bombed by the Allied B-17 raids.



vankatalaan said:


> Exactly. Check what they did to Penn Station in NYC


Those were capitalists, and that was back in the 60's. Just because some capitalists did that, doesn't mean that all capitalists hate history. The reds hated our history even more and destroyed even more buildings.


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## UrbanMyth

Сталин wrote: Those were the Allied B-17 that did the work, and cities destroyed during war for strategic advantages shouldn't count.

_*The historic centers of Berlin, Dresden, Warsaw, and Rotterdam were "strategic"? OK. :nuts:
*_

Сталин wrote: Mostly all historic buildings in Germany were preserved by the extreme right national socialists.

_*
Have you bothered to look at the post war plans for Germania? Linz? Munich? Warsaw? hno:*_

Communists are the ones who are rewriting history to divide everything into classes. 

*Capitalists don't divide people into classes??? ROFL :lol::lol::lol: Have you flown on a commercial airliner? So you're saying that social and economic classes are a myth? You are a product of Putin's propaganda. :nuts:*

That was during WWII, and those cities were mostly bombed by the Allied B-17 raids.

_*So, you agree, guns kill people not people using guns kill people. *_

Those were capitalists, and that was back in the 60's. Just because some capitalists did that, doesn't mean that all capitalists hate history. The reds hated our history even more and destroyed even more buildings.

_*What is "our history"? You aren't American and your family is not from the United States. I'm a 10th generation American, and it's not communists who destroyed our historic buildings, cities, and landscapes; capitalists did that all by themselves.

Check back with us in 50 years and let's see how well Moscow and St. Petersburg have held up to the Putin/Trump regime. If you are under the delusion that capitalist are going to put "history" before profit, you don't know anything about capitalism.*_

*To be fair to every one else, Сталин, we should take this discussion outside the Forum. *


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## UrbanMyth

vankatalaan said:


> Rotterdam was way too destroyed and the paradigm in the 50-60s was to innovate, not to rebuild


Indeed -- I think they were also under tremendous pressure to rebuilt housing and commercial facilities destroyed in the war? Function mattered more than form -- out of necessity.


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## Pamparam

what is this political dispute in this thread? 
let's get back to the beautiful Stadtschloss, please.


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## cilindr0

Now, that the year is finishing, it would be nice to see a before and after. From the first of January and the last days on December, to see the evolution of the works!


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## keepthepast

UrbanMyth said:


> .
> 
> _*What is "our history"? You aren't American and your family is not from the United States. I'm a 10th generation American, and it's not communists who destroyed our historic buildings, cities, and landscapes; capitalists did that all by themselves.
> *_


_*

Your lineage does not necessarily give any more credence to your point of view than a new immigrant or a non American. I'm sure you agree.

That said, since the USA has never been a communist country, how could any of the development in the last 300+ years been by communists (or 150 years since communism was 'invented' in the mid 19 century)? But, the most leftist city in the nation, San Francisco, has had perhaps the most changed cityscape in all the US over the last 30 years. All with the encouragement of the hardcore left democrat party city government. The entire appearance and feel of the city is changed with great loss of classic structures. When it comes to real estate development, we usually have lots of people with various political labels with their hands on the money.*_


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## keepthepast

Herr Schinkel looks to his right and can see his masterpiece being rebuilt. 










Then looks to his left and says 'what the hell is going on?'











_(my pics)_


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## The Eagle

*They finished with concrete long ago. 
The mortar in the brick wall is in need of one year for drying due to the thickness of the wall. The contractors are busy inside. They are in time with all*


Fun fact: The first all concrete building of the last millennia (without Roman Empire) was build by the Mannesmann (Machinery plant owners) brothers Germany in the 1920`s?


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## Zott

Even the modern facade looks quite nice!


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## Darryl

Am I the only one who's not impressed by that unification memorial design??


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## durden5573

Darryl said:


> Am I the only one who's not impressed by that unification memorial design??


Yes. It's horrible, I don't get why so many historical reconstructions need modernist crap plunked right in front. There are many other places that "art" could have gone.


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## Darryl

durden5573 said:


> Yes. It's horrible, I don't get why so many historical reconstructions need modernist crap plunked right in front. There are many other places that "art" could have gone.


Well, I'm not even bothered about a modernist/contemporary memorial if it's good. I like contemporary architecture/design, but that design is ugly and underwhelming. The memorial to unification should be better. It should be very striking, iconic, and memorable. That design doesn't cut it. Thumbs down. :-(


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## Joe Whalen 7

*German Unity Memorial Design*

I thought that someone said here that that awful "bomb fragment" design of a memorial had been scrapped and would no longer be built. Is there any further news from Berlin on this? We would never get any update on this sort of thing here in America.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Back to Work*

It must have warmed up enough for them to go back to work on the new building. I see from the web camera that men are now (Feb 27) working on the exterior of the structure for the first time in several weeks.

Are they doing something to the river channel that runs in front of the building? It looks like something is happening there from the same web camera views.


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## The Eagle

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> I thought that someone said here that that awful "bomb fragment" design of a memorial had been scrapped and would no longer be built. Is there any further news from Berlin on this? We would never get any update on this sort of thing here in America.


*Madness step one:*
*Yes, there are problems with the design, like wheelchair accessibility, dogs getting squeezed and what not. But the real big thing is that 80% of the Berliner have a problem with it. Some like it because it is hip and cool for five years or so, because it is designed to swing and it golden, new and shiny. But most don`t like the design and some like it, but like it build at a different location. The location is a big problem. The unification has nothing to do with this location. *

*Madness step two:*
*Now the build has been canceled. It would have become more expansive and the public does not support it. (Only 20% or so support)*

*But now the question come up is of what to do at its place? Many people like the original Unification Memorial rebuild of 1896. It was a memorial of the unification of 1871. Build and finished 1896. Most people would like it rebuild partly, at least. The communists had it destroyed after it had survived the war with no damage!*
*Now the Government on the Federal level canceled the "Fruit bowl" and put financing of the colonnades in place. Only the colonnades. The different fountain project is in the finances included.*

*Madness step three:*
*Election in the province/state of Berlin. Not the city hall level. The state level. Berlin is also its own City State. The conservatives have won the election. Like the federal, like on the city level. But now the democratic left/socialists have formed an coalition with the former communists and the green party. Therefore, they have more seats. *

*The communists have become the city building department. The state of Berlin owns the land around the Schloss. They now fore sudden refuse the money. The only money they take is for the "Bauakademie" (The square building). Not the other structures.*
*Some communist leaders (Police has already some files about them, for example encouraging teens to fire expansive cars) are maybe still on drugs. There are open statements that Berlin should adopt economic policies from Venezuela. (The country in witch zoo staff has to eat the zoo animals to survive) Anyway, it says in the coalition papers that the city has become*
*and I quote: "too expansive for the locals and the only way to fix it is to become less successful.":nuts:*
*Furthermore: "Beautifications could make Berlin gain population and tourists, therefore that should be avoided!" (quote)*

*By the question of how to rescue the economy after its destruction on purpose the three smart parties are planning to run a deficit. *
*^^*
*Quote Margaret Thatcher comes to mind: "The problem the left faces is this: They sooner or later run out of other peoples money!" *
*^^*
*Most people in Berlin are either speechless, or embarrassed. That is why we hear nothing in this thread about that. In the meantime the bookkeepers are running bets of how long the coalition will last. *
*The courts are already in action, because some plans are already violating some laws. Stay tuned.......*


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## PlanetMan

I've been stalking this thread for a while now, I thought I should finally register so I could comment. 

I absolutely love seeing this building being rebuilt, even with it's modern interiors, it's still incredible it's even happening. Like most, I don't love the cement block rear end of the building, but you have to take wha you can get I suppose. 

I was disappointed learning that none of the original interiors were being rebuilt. I can't say without seeing the final product, but in my imagination it feels like it would be a jarring feeling to see this amazing old baroque exterior, then walking inside the front doors to smooth, flat, modern walls etc. 

I wonder if anyone here could tell me about the sculptural figures that adorn certain places along the exterior. I know there are many angels and cherub type figures, but there also seem to be other figures that I know little or nothing about. I'm assuming many are mythological or allegorical figures, but that's about as much as I can guess. I know Neptune was originally the centrepiece of the large fountain. Who are the figures along the castle bridge? What do they represent? What about the original men holding the reigns of the horses on blocks in the front of the building?

I live in Canada, so unfortunately I don't get to go see this up close, and there's very little information about it here, but maybe I'll plan a trip to Berlin when it's completed.


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## erbse

allaboutmusical said:


> _Foto ist von heute und von mir_


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=178723&page=176


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## Joe Whalen 7

The Eagle said:


> *Most people in Berlin are either speechless, or embarrassed. That is why we hear nothing in this thread about that. In the meantime the bookkeepers are running bets of how long the coalition will last. *
> *The courts are already in action, because some plans are already violating some laws. Stay tuned.......*


Gee, and I thought that we had problems with political parties pursuing trivia for the sake of trivia. Sounds like we are not alone. Thanks to "Eagle" for the clarification.


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## Alvar Lavague

The Eagle said:


> [B
> 
> 
> Fun fact: The first all concrete building of the last millennia (without Roman Empire) was build by the Mannesmann (Machinery plant owners) brothers Germany in the 1920`s?


That's not true, I don't know what building can be considered as the first reinforced concrete building ever, but the first one in Paris date from 1892 (1 rue Danton)


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## ovaron

Eastfacade:










In this picture there are buildings of three different german states in one place. Maybe it helps to understand the hybrid charakter of the humboldt forum.

Tell me if you know a similar place elsewhere in this world.


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## turtlebay

Love watching the Humboldt Forum webcam. It looks like the stone work will be done on the south side Friday. I expect stuccoing will start soon. Does anyone know when? Will the stucco have the color infused or will they then have to paint the stucco? Thanks.


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## Fudgis

I've been enjoying near daily visits to the webcam too and as you rightly say all the stonework now appears to be in place for the south front which is great news. Externally it's just the upper parts of the two portal facades on the north side, the apex of the west portal and the dome to go, can't wait for the day that scaffolding finally comes down!

I was also wondering about the stucco finish, they could certainly start some of the south side now though I wonder if they'll wait until all exterior is structurally complete first as a completely separate phase. I'm guessing the colour will be applied with paint, it will be interesting to see how well the finished result matches the mock-ups we've seen thus far.


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## Tiaren

As of of today the south facade of the City Palace is structurally finished.  The last parts of the balustrade were put in place today.









http://cam03.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/

A couple of months later it will be plastered and painted.


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## flusispieler

It also looks like cladding of the dome base has started recently


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## The Eagle

turtlebay said:


> Love watching the Humboldt Forum webcam. It looks like the stone work will be done on the south side Friday. I expect stuccoing will start soon. Does anyone know when?
> Will the stucco have the color infused or will they then have to paint the stucco? Thanks.








*End of April is the date when they start to plaster/putz the first sections. The stucco will have beige/yellow infused, *
*because that will last way longer, comes cheaper and looks better.*

*Could look like this:*




*Or like this:*



*Maybe like this?*



*We will see.*



source Schlossverein!


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## Darryl

I like the light cream in the second pic. I hope it doesn't turn out to be yellow.


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## erbse

Darryl said:


> I like the light cream in the second pic. I hope it doesn't turn out to be yellow.


I actually prefer the warm tan on this one:











Which is not quirky yellow like some earlier versions, but a lovely shade of ochre. The foundation also promotes it.

Light cream is all over Berlin and in the vicinity of the Stadtschloss already.
It would be a welcome change to have something more comforting here, in Berlin's often rather dire climate (outside of the warm months). It would also distance itself better from the modernist grayish eastside facade and everything that follows up around Marx-Engels-Forum and Alexanderplatz. Too many toned down, cold and sterile colours and buildings already.


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## Sauter

Tiaren said:


> They almost came! :bash: Almost... It looked for a while as if the fugly unity memorial wasn't going to be build and the government wanted to give several millions to Berlin to reconstruct the colonnades, but then plans for the unity memorial were revived and on top of that leftist politicians were against the recontruction of the colonnades anyway, even if gifted to them. No wonder...they tore the original down 70 years ago...


too bad :/ i think that Museuminsel should be fully reconstructed to it's formal glory. What about the cathedral? Are there any plans to recreate the laterne der kuppel. It's a small detail, but it would make such difference to the ambient.


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## Suburbanist

The reunification memorial is a fitting addition to the place, something that will sharply contrast with the palace. Berlin is not, and should not, be an open-air museum where everything if frozen as if it were 1925. A modern reunification monument is great, it helps break down the Disney/Dresden-esque appearance of look-old-but-it-is-actually-new buildings, by giving it a touch of modernity associated with 21st Century. 

Actually, I think they should make the reunification monument even better with intricated embedded (and replaceable) LED lighting to make it glow and change over each month/season of the year. 

I have not seen its latest design iterations. There were talks of shortening the balancing arch a bit, have they done that?


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## Tiaren

Geez...it is Suburbanist coming to troll again...
First of all, you don't make any sense:



Suburbanist said:


> it helps break down the Disney/Dresden-esque appearance of look-old-but-it-is-actually-new buildings...


If it looks old it can't at the same time have a "Disney-esque appearance". Do you know what so called Disney buildings actually look like? Were you actually in a Disneyland once? (Probably not, as they must be places of nightmares for you.) They are wild fantasy designs on a location without any history, built with cheap, not long enduring materials, because they are meant to be contructed quickly and not last a lifetime. They often aren't even proper buildings, just supported by scaffolding. Like the castle walls on the following picture.

Disney Resort, Florida:










Proper reconstruction, Germany:










Dresden buildings don't fit the "Disney-esque" characterization either:










The City Palace also won't have a "Disney-esque appearance" for the simple reason that it isn't a Disney construction. It isn't a fantasy design, it's faithfully reconstructed after its old designs, it's located on its original spot, the materials and crafts used are of the absolute highest quality. Original pieces are incorporated again. Professionals were planning, building and crafting it for many, many years now. Look at the construction images in this very thread. You still coming in here, demeaning the architects, craftsmen and artists like that is just awful of you. I understand you can't escape the very rigid dogmas that you are subjected to, but come on, you can still be decent and pay some respect to people and their work where it's due, right?


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## Kampflamm

Looks better than 95% of all German cities:


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## Titan Man

Kampflamm said:


> Looks better than 95% of all German cities:


Was thinking the same. :lol:


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## Sauter

i agree that berlin is all about mixing and clashing, that's the city's signature, but only due to it's historical circumstances. since it's called museuminsel, i think it should be an open air museum with well preserved, and faithfully reconstructed buildings that once stood there originally.


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## Suburbanist

What existed on the Museuminsel before Kaiser Whillhem II built several of its structures?


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## Tiaren

Suburbanist said:


> What existed on the Museuminsel before Kaiser Whillhem II built several of its structures?


Except for the Cathedral none of the buildings were built by Wilhelm II. (Bodemuseum was built during his reign, but it had been conceived earlier and was named after then Emperor Friedrich III.) Everything south of Lustgarten is not officially part of Museumsinsel.
Before predecessing kings and emperors built museums on Museumsinsel it was the gardens of the Palace. (The northern facade of the Palace is actually a typically baroque garden facade and it's southern facade is the city facade.) In the early 19th century Schinkel first built the Altes Museum and after that the other 4 museum complexes were added one after another. The Pergamon Museum being the last one before WWII.


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## erbse

This "Disney" yadda yadda needs to *end*. It's pure BS, and the ones bringing this "argument" up know it perfectly well. It's just meant to provoke. A faithful reconstruction has _nothing_ in common with theme park settings.

More such posts will be reported Suburbanist, as it's sheer trolling that you bring to any of these threads.


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## ELH

The Disney-argument rests on the bottom of human intelligence, the rationale being: It looks like something I saw in disneyland, so it is disney-land like. Disneyland is medieval-like, duh.

Further: Disney reconstructions are not not "truthful" pertaining accurate design, historic location, choice of fassade materials (outer appearance) or craftmanship. Finally: German reconstructionists care less to put ghost-rides or kiosks into their buildings.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Can't Understand It*

I can't understand why any sane person would want to stick an ultramodern monument in front of a baroque palace. If I go into a historic section of a city, I don't expect to see something ultramodern sticking up like a sore thumb along side of structures that at least appear to have been there for centuries. That's one area where some European cities are making a big mistake as far as I am concerned. 

That "bomb fragment" that is supposed to be the unity monument could be displayed in the city dump and I seriously doubt that anybody would notice it.


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## hateman

ELH said:


> The Disney-argument rests on the bottom of human intelligence, the rationale being: It looks like something I saw in disneyland, so it is disney-land like. Disneyland is medieval-like, duh.


Exactly. Using an argument that relies on a combination of some of the most basic fallacies--well poisoning, guilt by association, appeal to ridicule, etc., just sways the weak-minded to your position, or makes you look weak-minded. A good way to score cheap points, but ultimately counterproductive. 

And they all seem to forget that Disney also made Tomorrowland. One could just as easily call the outre and unorthodox attempts by contemporary architects as "Disney."

The argument is also needless. Among other things, a good thing about the modern section of this reconstruction is it makes the argument visible: on these sections they've reconstructed what was there, on this section they've constructed a modernist facade, which do you consider more meaningful, beautiful, etc.? To my eye it shows what was lost much more than indicating progress, which is an important lesson for a number of reasons.


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## ELH

hateman said:


> Exactly. Using an argument that relies on a combination of some of the most basic fallacies--well poisoning, guilt by association, appeal to ridicule, etc., just sways the weak-minded to your position, or makes you look weak-minded. A good way to score cheap points, but ultimately counterproductive.


You´re right, but I didn´t mean it in a hateful maner.


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## Ludi

dubaibobby said:


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©SSC-User Dubaibobby


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## Britney-Purificación

Is there any renewal project for the Cathedral façade?


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## erbse

^ Dom renovations and even a reconstruction of the former cupola and turrets were considered multiple times, but won't take place soon.


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## Kampflamm




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## Darryl

Will they start now on the exterior of the dome?


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## erbse

Yep, very soon! kay:


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## turtlebay

Will they have the statues on the balustrades above the portals and around the dome?


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## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> It looks to me like work has stopped on the west and south facades of the palace but is progressing on the north side and in the Schluterhof. Anyone know what's going on there? Does one company have the contract for all of the stucco work? Just curious.


Works have stopped on the west and south facade because they are already technically finished. They just need to apply plaster and paint over the brick parts. As we saw for the Open Construction Site event on the north side, this can be done fairly quickly, a third of a facade within several days. They still have 5 months more time, as the facades are supposed to be finished by the end of the year.
It is by the way better to let brickwork settle for a couple of months before plastering over them, so that all moisture is gone from the cement holding the brickwork together I have been told.

I have no information about the contractor/contractors doing plastering and paint.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Thank you*

Tiaren:

Thank you for the information. That makes sense.


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## Darryl

Just got back from 2 weeks in Berlin. The Stadtschloss' immensity is most evident in person. It was awesome. This will be so impressive when completed. Not to mention the entire Museum Island area, when the Opera and the new U5 stations and the Stadtschloss are all completed and the scaffolding taken away (hopefully by 2020) it will be quite an impressive and beautiful central area indeed.


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## Darryl

...and the modern side facing the river and Alexanderplatz doesn't bother me that much. It's not beautiful, but it's not terrible or offensive either. It's facing ugly Alexanderplatz anyway, so c'est la vie. That area is not that pretty anyways. I just hope that they engage the waterfront properly so the public can enjoy it.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal status*

I exchanged emails with a representative of the Berlin city government regarding the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal site. He claimed that it was still up to the Bundestag what would or would not be built on that site. 

Of course, I'm not sure if I was getting what we Americans would call "the run around." (Is there a German expression for that?)


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## qjone2

There have apparently been more demonstrations against the reunification monument, but as far as I know the construction will be going ahead.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*More on the Kaiser Wilhelm Denkmal Site*

The online German language site for the monument includes the following:

"In the place of the former national monument, a sense of freedom and unity {monument) was to be formed for German reunification, but the realization was initially stopped in April 2016, which was justified by cost increases. On 11 November 2016, the Budget Committee of the Bundestag provided 18.5 million euros for the reconstruction of the historic colonnades on the protected pedestal. These costs would be even higher than for the Unity Monument. The planning also took place without a Bundestag decision. The decision was later revised. In June 2017, the Bundestag again decided to build the concept of freedom and unity."


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## dubaibobby

Pics from yesterday






























































Pics by dubaibobby


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## Tiaren

Reconstruction and installation of the large-scale windows of the palace:


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## UrbanMyth

Can't help imagining the Kaiser seeing the giant color ads on the sides of house.


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## Ludi

:heart:


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Construction Progress???*

I regularly watch the construction progress on the Stadtschloss reconstruction using the online site. I seem to be seeing very little progress this summer on the exterior of the building. I would think that they would want to take advantage of the summer weather to get as much done as possible. Are they running low on funds? The only exterior work seems to be a little on the north side.


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## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> I regularly watch the construction progress on the Stadtschloss reconstruction using the online site. I seem to be seeing very little progress this summer on the exterior of the building. I would think that they would want to take advantage of the summer weather to get as much done as possible. Are they running low on funds? The only exterior work seems to be a little on the north side.


Lol, I swear you ask the exact same thing every couple of weeks. 
Once again, no, they are not low on funds, the German government has fully funded everything in advance and everything is already in the works by different contractors. It's an important project, the most important current cultural project in Germany. It's already heavily scrutinized by the public as it is, they wouldn't let it turn into a second Berlin airport desaster just because of financial reasons. 600 million € is pocket change for the German government.
The schedule says that the facades and dome (excluding lantern and cross) will be finished by the end of the year. The facades are already finished to 99% and for the dome they have several months left. The contractors probably know what they are doing and they probably think they will have comfortably finished what is left to do by the end of the year.


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## Suburbanist

Modern construction project management is done on fancy software that shows what the critical paths are, what the individual stages of hundreds if not thousands of sub-tasks is etc. There is really no point in accelerating completion of things that don't need to be completed beforehand and that, contrary to uncertain activities like tunneling or earthworks or lowering water table, have little to no delay risk once things start.

They probably want a shinny outdoor finishing, so why bother finishing it up months ahead of schedule, only to let it start gathering dust or maybe suffer some weather effects before time of ribbon-cutting. Makes no sense.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Exterior Construction Progress*

You guys have some good points. However, it's just that I'm used to contractors wanting to finish work like that of the exterior of this building in a timely and efficient manner so that they can minimize costs. The cost of using all of that scaffolding is usually a daily charge where I live. You do everything that requires that expenditure and then take it down so as not to have that cost ongoing when you don't need it. In this project, things seem to be different or perhaps that sort of thing just works differently there. My best,


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## Tiaren

Cost isn't really any problem there. They'll have the scaffolding as long as they want and it also gives them the opportunity/excuse to keep these huge billboards up.


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## JustinHerman

I, too, notice that, with so little left to do on the exterior (Westfassade, Nordfassade, Schlüterhof, & dome) before stucco'ing, work has ground nearly to a halt. There are very few workers to be seen on the site at any given time since August began, so I've assumed that the slowdown is due to workers taking vacation.


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## lechevallierpatrick

Hallo zusammen!Does anybody know if the Rossebaendiger and the Adlersaeule will come back at the Lustgartenseite des Berliner Stadtschlosses?


----------



## Tiaren

lechevallierpatrick said:


> Hallo zusammen!Does anybody know if the Rossebaendiger and the Adlersaeule will come back at the Lustgartenseite des Berliner Stadtschlosses?


The chances for the Adlersäule are very slim, for the simple reason that only fragments of it are left.
The Rossebändiger do have a chance, because they do still exist...



















...but unfortunately some politicians are against removing them from their current location. The Berliner Schloss Foundation and the architect of the Schloss/Humboldt-Forum, Franco Stella, do want them back though.

I can see them compromising in the end. Have a modern square design surrounding the palace but bringing back at least the Rossebändiger to appease people that call for historic surroundings.


----------



## lechevallierpatrick

Thank U very much!I think it would be great if the Rossebaendiger could go back to the Lustgarten afterall they belong there!


----------



## Skymino

I can see old columns. How many old decorations will be repositioned in their original place?


----------



## Tiaren

Skymino said:


> I can see old columns. How many old decorations will be repositioned in their original place?


The old columns you see here are of the Altes Museum on the opposite side of the Lustgarten:

Altes Museum Berlin by luk3x, on Flickr

There will however indeed be parts of original columns that are going to be integrated. On the southern side of the forum, towards Breite Straße, there will be one upper part of an original column. Thre might be more that I don't know of.


----------



## Suburbanist

What is the current status of the monument for the reunification of Germany?


----------



## Steven DL

Soheilkb said:


> I will pray for your lost soul and taste




Dear Soheilkb, we might not be of same opinion but that still doesn't mean it's ok to make such statements. It's not because we are covered in the veil of anonymity on the internet, that it gives a carte blanche for ranting and personal attacks on other forum users.


Given the fact you have mentioned the words 'pray' and 'soul', I assume you are a religious person or at least seem to be heavily influenced by religious tradition; perhaps it's an idea to adhere to some of the principles dictates in either of the 3 abrahamic religions you supposedly follow: respect other people.


----------



## Skymino

Tiaren said:


> The old columns you see here are of the Altes Museum on the opposite side of the Lustgarten:
> 
> 
> There will however indeed be parts of original columns that are going to be integrated. On the southern side of the forum, towards Breite Straße, there will be one upper part of an original column. Thre might be more that I don't know of.




:lol::lol::lol: What a mistake I did .... for a while I thought the picture was inside a courtyard. 

Thanks


----------



## Soheilkb

Steven DL said:


> Dear Soheilkb, we might not be of same opinion but that still doesn't mean it's ok to make such statements. It's not because we are covered in the veil of anonymity on the internet, that it gives a carte blanche for ranting and personal attacks on other forum users.
> 
> 
> Given the fact you have mentioned the words 'pray' and 'soul', I assume you are a religious person or at least seem to be heavily influenced by religious tradition; perhaps it's an idea to adhere to some of the principles dictates in either of the 3 abrahamic religions you supposedly follow: respect other people.




I'm in fact an atheist , and I didn't Attack you , it's not because I'm covered in the veil of anonymity , I would say it to your face , you have a bad taste.


----------



## Darryl

Tiaren said:


> Like this:


Thanks Tiaren! It's difficult to get too excited about that, but I suppose it's not too bad.


----------



## Mr Bricks

Steven DL said:


> Personally I don't think it's that bad to be honest.


Compared to the majority of buildings going up today it's pretty good, however, compared to the old palace it looks extremely clumsy. 



Steven DL said:


> It's of course not as majestic like the fully ornamented baroque sides but it kind of mirrors the situation in lots of German cities with a sharp contrast between historic buildings which either survived the carpet bombing in WW2 or were restored or even reconstructed and the post war buildings, often standing directly adjacent.


I appreciate this contrast as well (although I'm also saddened by the huge losses), however, this is a new build it feels wholly pretentious to treat this building like it got to look this way organically. The palace was designed from scratch and does not need to follow any ideological ideas about what architecture in Berlin ought to be. On the contrary, this was the one building where symmetry and details were important.



Steven DL said:


> I personally really like these contrasts as I find them interesting and also reflecting history. As an example in Cologne you have the beautiful St. Aposteln and directly next to it a beautiful building from the 1950's.


I can't see any beauty in that 50s block.


----------



## Steven DL

Soheilkb said:


> I'm in fact an atheist , and I didn't Attack you , it's not because I'm covered in the veil of anonymity , I would say it to your face , you have a bad taste.




To be honest I don't really care so much whether you are atheist or believe in the flying spaghetti monster, but I do demand basic respect, as do all other forum users. We might differ in taste and that's ok but that doesn't give you the right to discredit mine. If anything, you could say "I think this part of the building is ugly - and don't agree with you" or "I think you have a bad taste because XYZ." These are the basics of feedback culture and it's basically how grown ups have conversations.


----------



## Steven DL

Mr Bricks said:


> Compared to the majority of buildings going up today it's pretty good, however, compared to the old palace it looks extremely clumsy.


I agree; compared to the reconstructed baroque sides of the palace it does look a bit clumsy and confrontational. I guess that was the whole point.



Mr Bricks said:


> I appreciate this contrast as well (although I'm also saddened by the huge losses), however, this is a new build it feels wholly pretentious to treat this building like it got to look this way organically. The palace was designed from scratch and does not need to follow any ideological ideas about what architecture in Berlin ought to be. On the contrary, this was the one building where symmetry and details were important.



I too am saddened by the losses in architectural heritage during the last world war but this is part of history and now it's up to us to incrementally improve the city centers architectural appearance. I personally believe we have been seeing lots of amazing initiatives in the recent years all over Germany.



Mr Bricks said:


> I can't see any beauty in that 50s block.



 Noted. I do. Especially in the evening when the staircase is clearly illuminated and the surroundings dark, I personally think the building conveys a certain elegance and lightness. But of course it's all subjective.


----------



## Soheilkb

Steven DL said:


> To be honest I don't really care so much whether you are atheist or believe in the flying spaghetti monster, but I do demand basic respect, as do all other forum users. We might differ in taste and that's ok but that doesn't give you the right to discredit mine. If anything, you could say "I think this part of the building is ugly - and don't agree with you" or "I think you have a bad taste because XYZ." These are the basics of feedback culture and it's basically how grown ups have conversations.




I didn't in any shape or form disrespect you , I just stated the facts .... there's a good taste and there's a bad taste that's all.


----------



## Steven DL

Soheilkb said:


> I didn't in any shape or form disrespect you , I just stated the facts .... there's a good taste and there's a bad taste that's all.




Just to close this 'discussion': taste is subjective. There is no such thing as "good taste". Whether it is "good" or "bad" is only in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## Mr Bricks

Steven DL said:


> I agree; compared to the reconstructed baroque sides of the palace it does look a bit clumsy and confrontational. I guess that was the whole point.


So the whole point was to ruin the building?



Steven DL said:


> Just to close this 'discussion': taste is subjective. There is no such thing as "good taste". Whether it is "good" or "bad" is only in the eye of the beholder.


Taste and aesthetics are linked to everything else including ideology and morality. This is especially true when it comes to architecture. To simply like a certain style is a moral choice and linked to one's world view and moral character. For example, conservatives tend to like only classical architecture while certain progressives only like modern buildings. Many despise bulky glass and steel buildings because they represent gentrification or the greed of the financial sector. Other dislike postmodernism for its pretentiousness or modernism for its utopian destructiveness. Hitler's fascination with ruins (destruction) was part of his insanity while stalinist wedding cake architecture is meant to represent the power of the Soviet union. In that sense there is more to a building that just taste.

When it comes to discussing taste we are free to discredit each others tastes all we like. It's called freedom of speech.


----------



## Steven DL

Mr Bricks said:


> So the whole point was to ruin the building?
> 
> 
> 
> Taste and aesthetics are linked to everything else including ideology and morality. This is especially true when it comes to architecture. To simply like a certain style is a moral choice and linked to one's world view and moral character. For example, conservatives tend to like only classical architecture while certain progressives only like modern buildings. Many despise bulky glass and steel buildings because they represent gentrification or the greed of the financial sector. Other dislike postmodernism for its pretentiousness or modernism for its utopian destructiveness. Hitler's fascination with ruins (destruction) was part of his insanity while stalinist wedding cake architecture is meant to represent the power of the Soviet union. In that sense there is more to a building that just taste.
> 
> When it comes to discussing taste we are free to discredit each others tastes all we like. It's called freedom of speech.




Freedom of speech ends where insulting begins. I think freedom of speech nowadays is too often misused as a way to attack other people, their beliefs, religion etc. Don't get me wrong I am always for a constructive debate. But I like to stress the word constructive. There are just simple basic rules of conversation which are normally thought at institutions like schools or at home when growing up.
I wish there'd be more mutual respect and less one liners and black & white statements. But I guess this forum like any other is just a mirror of society and thus represents the contemporary change in political debate all around the world as well. Anyhow, hope we can get back to the subject now.


----------



## Mr Bricks

Steven DL said:


> Freedom of speech ends where insulting begins. I think freedom of speech nowadays is too often misused as a way to attack other people, their beliefs, religion etc. Don't get me wrong I am always for a constructive debate. But I like to stress the word constructive. There are just simple basic rules of conversation which are normally thought at institutions like schools or at home when growing up.
> I wish there'd be more mutual respect and less one liners and black & white statements. But I guess this forum like any other is just a mirror of society and thus represents the contemporary change in political debate all around the world as well. Anyhow, hope we can get back to the subject now.


What you originally said was that no one "has the right" to discredit your taste which is ridiculous. Freedom of speech means everyone has the right to discredit whatever they like. The problem today is people tend to think that you can live in a free democratic society without your feelings getting hurt. Well you can't, and that's the whole point. Freedom of speech explicitly gives us the right to say things that are unpopular, radical and offensive. Attacking beliefs, religions etc makes up the foundation of western society. We have laws against hate crimes, stalking etc - as long as that lines isn't being crossed we're fine. I agree that discussion should be civil, however, I'm also proud to live in a society where one person can give the other the finger for no reason at all without ending up in the gulag.


----------



## Tiaren

According to the webcam...*drumroll*...*all outer facades are now structurally finished* (just the plaster and painting work remains).  This morning the last gap in the north side's balustrade was closed:

https://cam05.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


----------



## The Eagle

*To bring this thread back on track, we will show more pictures. 

Fun fact; there are 350 workers working on this build. The inside is 
extremely difficult and needs extreme good care. The fire response 
and humidity control is being installed. The air flows from the floors into
the rooms and will be taken out in the ceiling. The windows are also prepared 
against dangerous rays. There are 1ooo windows like old fashioned wood box
with special gases inside or modern metal frame windows!
Btw. The timetable is very good. So good in fact, that we get more reconstruction
than we bargained for: The gold works are coming and coming already now.
The original plans did not included them. Here the proof;*












































Thanks, Vulgow!


----------



## Tiaren

The Eagle said:


> The gold works are coming and coming already now. The original plans did not included them.


That's not true though. Gilded ornaments, like cartouches, crowns or banisters were planned to be gilded from a very early point on. It's indicated in official visualisations and the construction plans too:










There were voices that called for not gilding ornaments, if donations weren't covering them, but there were also voices to not finish the balustrades, to not add the dome or the statues and then there was the whole cross debate. It were just people suggesting things though, nothing official.


----------



## Steven DL

There is an interesting article on the website of the Humboldtforum (http://humboldtforum.com/de-DE/storys/tympana/):

It talks about what will happen with the original remaining fragments of the Stadtschloss.

Some of them will be built in to the reconstructed facade, as all of us have seen in previous pictures (see earlier in this thread). Some other objects however, will not be built in but will be put on display in the Forum itself due to conservational reasons.
As of late 2019, more than 100 of them will be shown in the Humboldt Forum.

Mainly in the so-called Skulpturensaal (sculpture room), a two-story room in the eastern, more modern wing towards the river Spree.


----------



## MDRB

I can surely say that, when finished, it'll look majestic.
Well, at least in my opinion...


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Wait Until Spring*

Since work on the exterior of the building seems to have stopped, I assume that the plan is to apply the stucco to the outside walls starting next spring. After all, you could not apply stucco and then have the wet plaster freeze since it would crack. Meanwhile, work must be progressing on the interior since it is now completely enclosed.


----------



## erbse

October 27:



dubaibobby said:


> Bilder von heute


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=178723&page=202


----------



## The Eagle

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Since work on the exterior of the building seems to have stopped, I assume that the plan is to apply the stucco to the outside walls starting next spring. After all, you could not apply stucco and then have the wet plaster freeze since it would crack. Meanwhile, work must be progressing on the interior since it is now completely enclosed.






Hey, Joe Whalen! How is it going?
They have to wait for at least one year to apply the plaster.
This gives the mortar inside the wall enough time to dry out.
Please relax. As a matter of fact - It is Your worrying that keeps 
me posting in this threat, I just noticed! Lol I drink to that


:cheers:


----------



## The Eagle

* Ludolf and others that post pictures seem to be in vacation and all other members
are worried that the build comes to an standstill. (350 People work on the build right now)Therefore, I guess, I have to post pictures here before someone gets a heart attack!
Portal III*


















*Portal IV*



























*Portal V*




































*Northwest corner*









*Preparations for Gold works*









*The cupola, btw.: The cupola will be 3/4 empty! What a waste of space!*









*A new stone, just placed;*









*And here we see info about Joe`s question: The brick has been covert with "Grundierung" witch is watery stucco to start a bridge between the two martials.
Namely Plaster and brick. It is like the plain paper on the wall under the wallpaper to keep it all together! In that case the wall and the wallpaper, basically the same idea.*








pictures from Spreetunnel!


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Thanks*

Thanks to Eagle and others regarding how the stucco process works. I really do appreciate learning the reason behind the wait time between finishing the brick work and applying the stucco. Sorry, if I seem to be to impatient to see this beauty completed. 

By the way, the recent photos of the details of the stone work show just how magnificent the new building will be.


----------



## Fudgis

Can't thank The Eagle enough for these wonderful photos, brilliant work, giving us all tantalising glimpses of what we can barely guess at on the webcam alone. The quality of the work being done is astonishing, those details leave me ever more excited about the day the scaffolding finally comes down (around which time I'm going to need to book a flight to Berlin!  )

Thanks too for the information regarding the process of applying the stucco, most enlightening!


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello everyone!

Can one remember this:*









*It now looks like this:*









*The angel needs his trumpet, still!
This is Portal IV:*









*Do you see this? Those idiots bend the royal crown!*









*And now it is probably broken!*








pictures from Vulgow, thanks!


----------



## JustinHerman

Good news! If you'll look at the Ostfassade view of the palace on the Webcam, you'll see that the eastern end of the Südfassade is being stucco'd!


----------



## turtlebay

JustinHerman said:


> Good news! If you'll look at the Ostfassade view of the palace on the Webcam, you'll see that the eastern end of the Südfassade is being stucco'd!


Things are moving rather quickly.


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello there!

Let me explain how they tackle the Putz/Stucco/Plaster adventure.
Because this wall is thicker than normal, there is a longer wait time before
stucco can be applied. The first step is a thin spray with watery stucco. This has to dry. it is done to help the later stucco to stick/bind to the wall. Same like if you put wallpaper to a bare wall. You have to put paper on first.

The second phase is to make the stucco spray wet and moist. You add a thick layer of stucco. Normally white color added. White is cheap and lets the wall glow.

The third phase (not needed) is to apply a thin third layer of stucco with the desired color already mixed into it. (red, blue, eggshell) The wall is finished. Sometimes the second layer will be left exposed around windows and so on.
The purpose is to save money in the short and long run. In the short run, because the color is so expansive, the savings in only adding a thin layer of colored stucco saves a lot of money. (Small house 1 - 2000$) Also, people can make the wall two colored if parts of white stucco are left exposed. That saves time.
The savings in the long run are that when the weather weathers the wall down, particles will be washed down over time, but the wall remains flawless for years to come. This also creates the patina look that tourists love. In countries with dry climate like Italy, some walls are redone only every 120 years or so. 
In Germany up to 80 Years. Paint should be avoided, it can suffocate the walls and will peel and create mildew. Best is lime wash, it breaths, do it yourself and it kills germs (acid). Walls are supposed to heat up during the day, dry out, sterilize germs and mildew dead from heat and dryness. It also releases comfortable warmth into the night when people sit in cafes. It helps create a micro climate. That helps with the heating bill, too.

Now some pictures from phase one. A wet spray:* 










*The stone has been glazed against graffiti; *



























*Phase one: Spry Putz is being applied; therefore the window cover;*









*View thru the Portal II. In the backside the back of Portal IV*









*The quay with the future promenade is coming; *








Thanks, Spreetunnel.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Schluterhof Question*

I notice that they have taken down some of the scaffolding in the Schluterhof and that the wall appears to have been finished in a reddish color. From the online photo I can't tell if that is just the brick or the color of the stucco in that courtyard. Does anybody know for sure?


----------



## albanyjd

I believe this is red brick. All the final photos I have seen indicate that the Shulterhof will be the same stucco as the outside walls.


----------



## erbse

^ That's correct.

Another minor milestone is reached: The cornice of the cupola is finished! kay:









https://cam01.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/


----------



## erbse

^ The cupola when finished in late 2018:


















https://www.welt.de/debatte/komment...-Kreuz-auf-Berlins-Schlosskuppel-gehoert.html
https://www.berlinjournal.biz/franco-stella-kreuz-stadtschloss/



























http://www.eldaco.net/berliner-schloss/


Can't wait!


----------



## keepthepast

I suspect there is planning underway for the dedication and grand opening of the Schloss, once completed. As a former royal residence, I wonder if, out of historical respect, the organizers will include the current head of the Hohenzollern family, as it was his great great grandfather's home. It would also be interesting to see QEII attend, as her own father had been a guest here.


----------



## Suburbanist

keepthepast said:


> I suspect there is planning underway for the dedication and grand opening of the Schloss, once completed. As a former royal residence, I wonder if, out of historical respect, the organizers will include the current head of the Hohenzollern family, as it was his great great grandfather's home. It would also be interesting to see QEII attend, as her own father had been a guest here.


What about not. Germany is no longer a monarchy, having been thrown into chaos by strong leaders of 19th and 20th Centuries. It has abolished nobility titles altogether. Whoever is a direct descendant of predecessors that lived in the castle have no direct personal connection to the project. The place is going to be a museum, an event center for sciences and that is why the state entities put up a lot of money into the project to begin with.


----------



## keepthepast

^^

There are direct and indirect connections to the Stadtschloss among many people and institutions, including its historical owners. The fact that there has been no monarchy in 100 years, does not erase that history, simply puts its into a different perspective.


----------



## Tiaren

Suburbanist once again has just no clue... 
First of all, nobility and nobility titles are not actually abolished in Germany. It is a very common misinformation though, I give him that.

_Wikipedia:
On 18 March 1919 the Landtag of the Free State of Bavaria enacted the Gesetz über die Aufhebung des Adels ("Act on the Abolition of the Nobility"), *which eliminated (not nobility as a class or individual attribute per se, but) all noble privileges*, and henceforth forbade Bavarians from accepting foreign ennoblement. Other German states enacted equivalent legislation._

What was abolished were all privileges they had over normal people, not nobility.

Today nobility titles are part of the official name of a person of nobility.
For example in February of this year a real, little princess was born to the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (German relatives of the Queen of England):

Madeleine Aurelia Viktoria Carin Prinzessin von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

Her name: "Madeleine Aurelia Viktoria Carin Prinzessin von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha" will be her official name and what you will read on her passport and other official documents.
You can't be forced to address her as "Princess" or "Your Highness" anymore, they've lost that special privilege, but it would be considered as very rude not to.

Story time: When I was at the hair dresser just a couple of months ago an elderly, elegant lady entered the salon and I noticed the owner immediately came running to her, which I thought was a bit peculiar. They are very professional and polite in this salon to every customer, but not quite to that extend. The staff acted almost subservient. Well, she was seated next to me and it turned out she was a "Gräfin von" (duchess) and she was addressed by everyone by that title.

You completey misjudge the standing today's German nobility has among Germans, even German politicians. In general they are well respected and a big part of the population actually is very fond them. They remain something special and different to normal people.

Last but not least, look at what we have here:

His Royal Highness (people that aren't rude will formally address him like this) Georg Friedrich Ferdinand Prinz von Preußen (this is his official name) gets a special tour of the palace construction site and visits the artisan workshop. 




























Oh, and look what we have here...he was also invited as a special guest to the ground breaking ceremony:

https://www.welt.de/kultur/kunst-und-architektur/article117070873/Ein-kleiner-Staatsakt-zur-Grundsteinlegung.html

So His Royal Highness will very likely be a special guest at the inauguration too.


----------



## Suburbanist

Hereditary power or recognition is one of the worst features of European history.


----------



## keepthepast

^^

Thanks Tiaren for the informative background and for helping Suburbanist come to grips.


----------



## The Eagle

*Germany was a democracy in Kaiser times. In fact, the same Political Parties that exist and run Germany today where running Germany before 1918. Germanys democratically and electoral system was bigger than the systems in GB or USA. I am not joking. Parts of the population not allowed to participate in the election in countries like the USA where allowed to do so in Germany. The USA had 27 groups that where not allowed to vote at that time. Germany had only 3 groups. The Kaiser was more like ceremonial like the Vice President today. When Russia, England and France declared war on Germany, (England and France had threatened to declare war before and England was bankrupt) the democratically elected Parliament in Germany responded in kind. The Kaiser was in his vacation in Norway, just coming from GB. (Because Germany bought all his Navy ships from England and so the German Navy men that he visited where trained in GB.) 
During the war the Kaiser like the Parliament where replaced by a Military Management, like written in the constitution for such cases. After the war the Kaiser was replaced in part to his unhelpful England connection. The Political Parties running Germany today are the same ones as 1914.*


----------



## TM_Germany

please don't spew alternative facts. Thank you very much.


----------



## makoppa

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - &quot;Humboldt-Forum&quot; | U/C*



TM_Germany said:


> please don't spew alternative facts. Thank you very much.




Hallo TM_Germany, what are the facts about the pre-WW1 German government?


----------



## erbse

Suburbanist said:


> Hereditary power or recognition is one of the worst features of European history.


How so? It is the essence of European high culture in all arts. It is what shaped the nations. The peoples. The reason the rest of the world modernized. It's an essential part of European history and the whole modern world is unthinkable without it. With all its lows and highs.


----------



## TM_Germany

makoppa said:


> Hallo TM_Germany, what are the facts about the pre-WW1 German government?


It's not as bad as common perception makes it out to be.

Calling Imperial Germany a democracy is however wrong. The Reichstag's only major direct power was budgeting. That's an important tool but it's way off of making Germany at the time a democracy where the political agende is set by the people.

I don't know about how many "groups" were or were not allowed to vote but that's a very typical nonsensical argument for defending something that's not there. It might be that the U.S. excluded more groups people from the election process but that doesn't mean much, as the German democratic system didn't have all that much decision making power and as we don't know how big those "groups" were. 

Claiming that the Kaiser was just ceremonial like a vice president is today is just utterly wrong. The Kaiser had a lot of powerful, direct tools at his disposal which especially Willy II. used all the time.

The Eagle's characterization of how the war declarations came to be is also wrong. Don't ask me for details but it certainly wasn't "oh they declared war on us! What a surprise! We have to do the same!" 

Germany didn't buy all of its ships from England. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that almost all of them were built in Germany. I don't know about where they trained but I'd also be surprised if there were ever more than a token amount of German sailors in Britain.

I don't know about the Kaiser's whereabouts at the start of the war, so I can't comment on that.

I really have nothing against you Eagle, in fact I really, really admire your work. But it seems like you found quiete a bit of Kaiserzeit- romantics who liked to do "schönreden" as we say in Germany. Your last post has just too many errors and it takes away some of the credibility I feel you deserve.


----------



## Suburbanist

erbse said:


> How so? It is the essence of European high culture in all arts. It is what shaped the nations. The peoples. The reason the rest of the world modernized. It's an essential part of European history and the whole modern world is unthinkable without it. With all its lows and highs.


Slavery was also a part of the European history (though relatively minor in Germany), doesn't mean we should celebrate 6th generation descendants of French or British slave masters.


----------



## The Eagle

Suburbanist said:


> Slavery was also a part of the European history (though relatively minor in Germany), doesn't mean we should celebrate 6th generation descendants of French or British slave masters.






*Right! And for me to believe it you must abort everything you use of those Slave masters! That is right! So close modern farming, food processing and storing, the health care, the fresh water plumbing and please shot off the electric grid! Please. It is all contaminated by coming from those horrible descendants of "Slave Masters". The same descendants that disapprove slavery. *
*(lol) *
*(What about Asian, African, Arab and South American Slave Masters? Are they better?)*

*And why is everyone so angry anyway? Every country and every time defines democracy different. We need to look both ways a love each other!*


----------



## Suburbanist

The Eagle said:


> *Right! And for me to believe it you must abort everything you use of those Slave masters! That is right! So close modern farming, food processing and storing, the health care, the fresh water plumbing and please shot off the electric grid! Please. It is all contaminated by coming from those horrible descendants of "Slave Masters". The same descendants that disapprove slavery. *
> *(lol) *
> *(What about Asian, African, Arab and South American Slave Masters? Are they better?)*
> 
> *And why is everyone so angry anyway? Every country and every time defines democracy different. We need to look both ways a love each other!*


My point it that while it would be crazy to suggest descendants of old bad men bear any responsibility for the deeds of people dead 100, 300, 500 years ago, it also makes no sense to "pay historical respects" (as @keepthepast suggested) by inviting them for architectural opening of publicly funded civic buildings.


----------



## The Eagle

TM_Germany said:


> It's not as bad as common perception makes it out to be.
> 
> Calling Imperial Germany a democracy is however wrong. The Reichstag's only major direct power was budgeting. That's an important tool but it's way off of making Germany at the time a democracy where the political agende is set by the people.



*Yes, in those days Germany qualified as democratic. Keep in mind that every country had and still has different election systems. The electoral system in Italy today would be illegal in Germany today. But nice that you admit that "there was something there". One example from this thread: The Kaiser wanted his Schloss remodeled. The parliament said no. No money for that.*



> I don't know about how many "groups" were or were not allowed to vote but that's a very typical nonsensical argument for defending something that's not there. It might be that the U.S. excluded more groups people from the election process but that doesn't mean much, as the German democratic system didn't have all that much decision making power and as we don't know how big those "groups" were.



*This is an example of what I have meant. The US in 1914 had excluded 27 different groups like Catholics or women. Germany only three. Doesn't matter. Take Canada: The East cost celebrates being completely democratic since the 1760`s! But we have a Queen! Tell this an American and that poor guy can not stop laughing. And that is the point: The Political elite in Germany today does not want to be close to any political decisions made back than. Like "we are new we are innocent"*




> Claiming that the Kaiser was just ceremonial like a vice president is today is just utterly wrong. The Kaiser had a lot of powerful, direct tools at his disposal which especially Willy II. used all the time.



*Sounds like todays democrats. Sorry*





> The Eagle's characterization of how the war declarations came to be is also wrong. Don't ask me for details but it certainly wasn't "oh they declared war on us! What a surprise! We have to do the same!"



*You are right! In 1891, in Bismarck's retirement speech, the Parliament was warned of war. He warned that the British could and would send spies to turn the different ethnics in Austria/Hungary against one another. This did happen. Best example the 1920`s when Britain donated Germanys farmland and Breadbasket to the Polish dictator to help starve 3.6 Million people to death. Bismarck was right. In 1904, the British where caught responsible for the uprising of some locals in today Namibia. Also like to mention the written thread of "possible consequences with the help of Britain's forces" handed over by the British minister of war in 1910. Right in Berlin. Right to the Kaiser. Germany thought to solve the problem with just another Royal wedding. The British Parliament speeches from 1904 to 1910 tell everything. After 1910 all documents are under British Military wrap till today.*
*btw.: Between 1904 and 1910, The British Parliament was debating of a possible war in Europe and of how to win it, it would require France and Russia. Would be a waste to destroy one competition and face the next one! In 1904 the British decided to station military units in Belgium. The first soldier that died was British. *





> Germany didn't buy all of its ships from England. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that almost all of them were built in Germany. I don't know about where they trained but I'd also be surprised if there were ever more than a token amount of German sailors in Britain.



*Yes, Germany bought its colonies from the allies to prevent any bad feelings. That was completely new. Germany asked Britain in that very same meeting that it will need ships for the colonies. The British sold the first ships directly and later ships where build under license. My bad. I should have clarified that. British engineers delivered parts and blueprints. Traveled in between back and forth. But the ships where of the wrong type: One could load either ammunition or coal. With ammunition the ships could make it only to southern Norway and back! So Germany had an agreement that the British ports around the globe would supply the German vessels in need. The vessels also had sea rolling problems. They where designed for coastal protection. *
*The only thing new and German where the cannons. That is of why Britain was worried about the cannons. That is all you can hear about if you pay attention.*
*The British also trained all sailors. In fact it was the DDR in 1949 that opened the first Captains and upper ranges school located in a German speaking Country. The point is this: Britain used the German ships as an excuse of why it had declared war. Those ships where harmless. The British knew. They designed them!*
*But Britain admits declaring war. That was the point with the ships. I should have clarified that.*





> I don't know about the Kaiser's whereabouts at the start of the war, so I can't comment on that.
> 
> I really have nothing against you Eagle, in fact I really, really admire your work. But it seems like you found quiete a bit of Kaiserzeit- romantics who liked to do "schönreden" as we say in Germany. Your last post has just too many errors and it takes away some of the credibility I feel you deserve.



*No offence taken! I actually like it if we all work together here and work things out! Thank you for your knowledge! I am still learning every day! Of course I make mistakes. You are very welcome. But one question: If I am a Kaiser romantic and therefore not neutral, what about you? Would you be therefore a Kaiser critic and therefore not neutral either?*


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## keepthepast

Suburbanist said:


> My point it that while it would be crazy to suggest descendants of old bad men bear any responsibility for the deeds of people dead 100, 300, 500 years ago, it also makes no sense_* to "pay historical respects"*_ (as @keepthepast suggested) by inviting them for architectural opening of publicly funded civic buildings.


"old bad men" only further validates your confused, sexist, ageist, and ignorant view of history.

It would also help if you correctly quoted before lashing out; misquoting is like fake news. Respecting the historical record is not respecting individuals or individual actions of former times, unless specifically stated. And inclusion of descendants of historic figures at current events simply adds clarity and interest to the continuum of the historical process. You are free to wallow in centuries old anger and hate, but the rest of the world moves on with a greater sense of how past, present, and future interrelate in order to form a more calm and peaceful understanding of how to live.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Fact Versus Fiction*

Eagle:

You would make a good fiction writer. I don't know where you are getting all of this stuff. Germany built all of the Imperial German Navy's ships in German shipyards. I can even supply the names of which ships and which yards if you so desire. There was no "responsible government" in Imperial Germany with the Kaiser alone deciding who should be chancellor and not the parties in the Reichstag. Neither did they "purchase" their colonies from the other European powers. Likewise, anti-Catholic laws in Britain ended in the 19th century and never existed in America. True, blacks were often excluded from the voting process in some states in America at the time of the first world war, but that was by no means a national law. Let's don't treat fiction as fact. Additionally, I think that we ought to stick to the subject of this forum, namely the new Berliner Schloss.


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## Suburbanist

keepthepast said:


> "old bad men" only further validates your confused, sexist, ageist, and ignorant view of history.
> 
> It would also help if you correctly quoted before lashing out; misquoting is like fake news. Respecting the historical record is not respecting individuals or individual actions of former times, unless specifically stated. And inclusion of descendants of historic figures at current events simply adds clarity and interest to the continuum of the historical process. You are free to wallow in centuries old anger and hate, but the rest of the world moves on with a greater sense of how past, present, and future interrelate in order to form a more calm and peaceful understanding of how to live.


I am applying the same standards I use to assess whether people living in Southern US with links to past confederacy/salve owners are racist or not. People are obviously not racist just because their great-grandparents owned slaves, acted to capture or prevent slaves from fleeing (pretty much anyone in law enforcement) etc. 

However, if said people living today, who are completely innocent of the deeds of their ancestors, then decide on their own volition to raise a Confederate flag and claim it is not hate, just their heritage, then they invite themselves the "racist" label upon their own actions.

Same goes for descendants of old dead German emperors, British kings, Bolshevik revolutionary leaders, Nazi SS officers, Franco's falangists etc. People are individuals, but purposefully "reclaiming" links with dead ancestors in political/military symbols mean they associate themselves with the worst things of such ancestors.

Furthermore, and of utmost importance, the Humboldt forum is a public-financed project with taxes from German taxpayers. If this was a private construction project, then people could have it your way, but since it is a public project with public money, no such "honoring the descendants of emperors who once lived here" is warranted. The way you write gives the impression you are making this "historical connection" close to the ones achieved when they invited survivors of WW2 to the opening ceremonies of some of Berlin's monuments, which would be a very tricky analogy to take.


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## keepthepast

Suburbanist said:


> I am applying the same standards I use to assess whether people living in Southern US with links to past confederacy/salve owners are racist or not.


If your standards are incorrect, then applying them arbitrarily across the board is simply an exponential reflection of being wrong.



Suburbanist said:


> However, if said people living today, who are completely innocent of the deeds of their ancestors, then decide on their own volition to raise a Confederate flag and claim it is not hate, just their heritage, then they invite themselves the "racist" label upon their own actions.


Nope. They would not be inviting anything. However, if you and others choose to stereotype and profile with negative attributes in spite of what you admit is may be true, then you are the bigots.



Suburbanist said:


> Same goes for descendants of old dead German emperors, British kings, Bolshevik revolutionary leaders, Nazi SS officers, Franco's falangists etc. People are individuals, but purposefully "reclaiming" links with dead ancestors in political/military symbols mean they associate themselves with the worst things of such ancestors.
> 
> Furthermore, and of utmost importance, the Humboldt forum is a public-financed project with taxes from German taxpayers. If this was a private construction project, then people could have it your way, but since it is a public project with public money, no such "honoring the descendants of emperors who once lived here" is warranted. The way you write gives the impression you are making this "historical connection" close to the ones achieved when they invited survivors of WW2 to the opening ceremonies of some of Berlin's monuments, which would be a very tricky analogy to take.


No one referred to royal families "reclaiming" anything; you made that up. Once again, the point being made is historic, but it appears obvious you prefer historic cleansing rather than acknowledgment. 
If the German taxpayers are so overwhelmingly opposed to the historic basis of the Stadtschloss and fear young Georg Friedrich rising up and taking over, then I'm sure they'll follow your advice and not allow him anywhere near.


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## Mr Bricks

Tiaren said:


> Story time: When I was at the hair dresser just a couple of months ago an elderly, elegant lady entered the salon and I noticed the owner immediately came running to her, which I thought was a bit peculiar. They are very professional and polite in this salon to every customer, but not quite to that extend. The staff acted almost subservient. Well, she was seated next to me and it turned out she was a "Gräfin von" (duchess) and she was addressed by everyone by that title.
> 
> His Royal Highness (people that aren't rude will formally address him like this) Georg Friedrich Ferdinand Prinz von Preußen (this is his official name)


The schloss itself is great but what you describe here is abhorrent. I think you would have to add me to the "extremely fckn rude" category 



Suburbanist said:


> However, if said people living today, who are completely innocent of the deeds of their ancestors, then decide on their own volition to raise a Confederate flag and claim it is not hate, just their heritage, then they invite themselves the "racist" label upon their own actions.


There is nothing especially wrong about the confederate flag, mostly just a case of history written by the winners. At least you would have to acknowledge that the union jack for many people is a symbol of colonization, war, terror and theft.


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## erbse

_Don't waste your time on Suburbanist, it really is just that: a waste of time._


*Merry Christmas everyone! And a great start for 2018*, the year we'll be able to enjoy this wonderful view:









http://www.eldaco.net/images/projects/project-1/p1-2.jpg
http://www.eldaco.net/projekte/berliner-schloss/









https://berliner-schloss.de/neues-schloss-humboldt-forum/


:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:


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## keepthepast

And a Merry Christmas to you and everyone here! Hope you all had a great holiday. 
In the US, it's been a joy to hear "Merry Christmas" widespread in public without embarrassment or shame for the first time in decades. 

the completed view of the StadtSchloss will be a momentous occasion. We are blessed to be able to witness this great gift of beauty, culture, and history.


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## TM_Germany

Please keep your less-than-bright political dogma out of this discussion. 
Not only can anyone that has ever been to the U.S. during christmas time attest to the fact that nobody *ever* was afraid to give christmas wishes to anyone in copious amounts, but you also do the Stadtschloss and historical reconstructions in general a huge disservice if you associate them with the political ideoligies represented by people like DJT and Sarah Palin, who in general are mentioned here in the same sentence as Putin, Erdogan or flat earthers, depending on the conversation. Regardless of political views, however, it is never a good idea to associate architecture with politics in any way *ever* because it is impossible to gain widespread acceptance that way.

That said, I hope you all had a "Frohes Fest" and soon "einen Guten Rutsch!"


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## keepthepast

TM_Germany said:


> Please keep your less-than-bright political dogma out of this discussion.
> Not only can anyone that has ever been to the U.S. during christmas time attest to the fact that nobody *ever* was afraid to give christmas wishes to anyone in copious amounts, but you also do the Stadtschloss and historical reconstructions in general a huge disservice if you associate them with the political ideoligies represented by people like DJT and Sarah Palin, who in general are mentioned here in the same sentence as Putin, Erdogan or flat earthers, depending on the conversation. Regardless of political views, however, it is never a good idea to associate architecture with politics in any way *ever* because it is impossible to gain widespread acceptance that way.
> 
> That said, I hope you all had a "Frohes Fest" and soon "einen Guten Rutsch!"


Thank you for your not unexpected, angry, and personally attacking comment. Merry Christmas to you, too!

Fact is, you are incorrect. "Merry Christmas" has largely been displaced by Happy Holidays all across the public arena in the US--retail, institutions, media, etc--because it is considered non-inclusive and inappropriately religious by those who have had to power to make the greeting politically incorrect. Many large retail establishments forbade employees from saying the phrase, even in response to it being delivered to them. 
In spite of your wish to believe otherwise and castigate those who know, in the US, 'Merry Christmas' is significantly back in Christmas after a long hiatus.


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## JonBlack95

erbse said:


> _Don't waste your time on Suburbanist, it really is just that: a waste of time._
> 
> 
> *Merry Christmas everyone! And a great start for 2018*, the year we'll be able to enjoy this wonderful view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.eldaco.net/images/projects/project-1/p1-2.jpg
> http://www.eldaco.net/projekte/berliner-schloss/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://berliner-schloss.de/neues-schloss-humboldt-forum/
> 
> 
> :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:


So is Karl Liebknecht Strasse to be pedestrianised as well?


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## TM_Germany

keepthepast said:


> Thank you for your not unexpected, angry, and personally attacking comment. Merry Christmas to you, too!
> 
> Fact is, you are incorrect. "Merry Christmas" has largely been displaced by Happy Holidays all across the public arena in the US--retail, institutions, media, etc--because it is considered non-inclusive and inappropriately religious by those who have had to power to make the greeting politically incorrect. Many large retail establishments forbade employees from saying the phrase, even in response to it being delivered to them.
> In spite of your wish to believe otherwise and castigate those who know, in the US, 'Merry Christmas' is significantly back in Christmas after a long hiatus.


My "attack" was not personal and the fact that you expected something like that says a lot about your politics. I wasn't aware that the president decides on retail or company policy, thanks for making me aware of that :nuts: Have you ever felt ashamed of saying merry christmas? I'm sure the media you consume can give the same answer as you. Also, how does saying "Happy holidays" (as is common practise in many countries including Germany, simply because there are multiple christmas holidays and then later new years) threaten christmas or restrict people from saying merry christmas? 

This "war on christmas" is another factually nonexistent non-issue invented by people that want to keep your country devided over bullshit. 

I would greatly appreciate that the sentiment that everyone is entitled to his or her own facts stays on the other side of the pond and that nobody infuses politics into something that should be notoriously unpartisan. I don't have any personal problems with you.


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## wakka12

Palace restoration in Lisbon. Similar to modern facade on stadtschloss, but really much more tasteful and better executed 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=146410429&postcount=867




























I guess I don't hate modernism. I just hate bad modernism, unfortunately 95% of modern buildings fall under this category


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## Tiaren

I think that looks pretty awful. The, I assume, concrete cast windows/ornaments look tacky and superficial and the rest of the facade is even more modernist and disruptive than the modern east facade of the Berlin City Palace.
The Berlin east facade might look stern and austere, but it also is very well proportioned (in accordance with classical theory), it's reserved, calm and stately. It also doesn't disrupt or overtrump the adjacant reconstructed baroque facades.
Yes, there could've been much better designs (like the original renaissance facade or a fourth baroque facade), but it's not a bad design by any means.


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## wakka12

Im not sure what ornaments you're talking about but is it these existing features? An architecture firm going for such a contemporary design wouldn't create cast concrete classical ornamentation as part of their design!
And fair enough, each to their own I suppose. Just visually the portuguese restoration looks a lot more appealing in my eyes. I like the classical rhythm of the stadtschloos modern side, but the columns are just so chunky and thick, I think it looks awkward how plain they are, exaggerated by their shear size, next to the ornamented facades. I like how this is set into the wall, and the columns are much slimmer and more numerous, just seems to be more in keeping with the fine ornamentation surrounding it, and the parts which protrude in relief in the columns mirroring the horizontal band of ornamentaton is a really nice touch i think and breakup the monotony


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## Tiaren

wakka12 said:


> Im not sure what ornaments you're talking about but is it these existing features?


These on the right for example:










By the way, why does that wing of the palace look like that? What happened?


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## DiogoBaptista

Tiaren said:


> By the way, why does that wing of the palace look like that? What happened?


The palace has never been finished, the palace should be one of the largest palaces in Europe!
In Lisbon we are very sad because we want the palace to be finished according to the original project, but we do not have the same capacity as Berlin!

Some historic info:



> Over time, the project underwent several periods when the construction was stopped or slowed down due to financial constraints or political conflicts. When the Royal Family had to flee to Brazil (in 1807), following the invasion of Portugal by French troops, the work proceeded very slowly with Fabri taking charge of the project, later followed by António Francisco Rosa. Lack of financial resources would also result in the scaling down of the project. The construction of the Ajuda Palace, which began in 1796 and lasted until the 19th century, was a project plagued by various political, economic and artistic/architectural problems. It was invaded by Napoleon's troops in 1807, and discontinued by Liberal forces who imposed a constitutional monarchy that reduced the power of the royal family.
> Further interruptions occurred, due to a lack of funds, political sanctions or disconnection between the workers and the authorities responsible for the project.


More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Ajuda

Berlin is fantastic city and congratulations for making this project possible! It's amazing how you are making this dream a reality! I wish the same was possible in Lisbon.

Project info:



DiogoBaptista said:


> *National Palace of Ajuda - Crown Jewels Museum* | Lisbon
> 
> _Official Website: n/a
> 
> MAP | STREETVIEW
> _
> 
> *Location*
> 
> 
> Address: Calçada da Ajuda
> 
> Parish: Ajuda
> 
> *Architecture and Construction*
> 
> 
> Status: Under Construction
> 
> Promotor: Câmara Municipal de Lisboa [Lisbon City Hall], Turismo de Lisboa [Tourism of Lisbon], Ministério da Cultura [Ministry of Culture]
> 
> Architecture: João Carlos dos Santos
> 
> Start Date: 2018, Februrary
> 
> End Date: 2020, 1º Quarter
> 
> Use: Cultural, Museum
> 
> Cost: 21 Miliion EUR (25.8 Miliion USD)
> 
> 
> *Dimensions*
> 
> 
> Floors: 4
> 
> *Original Project*
> 
> 
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> *Today*
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> *Project*
> 
> 183327577


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## wakka12

Thats fascinating thanks for sharing.I assumed it was bomb damage. 
Well at least you guys have half a beautiful palace..its more than a lot of countries have ! haha


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Ajuda Palace Work*

This is a very interesting update on the Royal Palace in Lisbon. I must confess that I had never heard of the Ajuda Palace until I read this. I think that Portugal ought to do a better job publicizing it as a tourist attraction.

Will the museum get additional exhibition space from this project? I get the impression that they will, but am not sure. The fact that a public street runs close by the back of the palace property would seem to limit their options.


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## Darryl

I am impatient! lol

I'm ready to see some exterior updates!

Was the winter spent on the interior? Let's get this dome/cupola started! Let's see some scaffolding come down!


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## MisterDae

I'd like some updates with this! I also think they should add a lot of trees and plants around the historic area so it's less grey.


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## erbse

Some current pictures of the palace reconstruction:




















Eosanderportal and cupola/dome:






















































Source: all by Vulgow, Stadtbild-Forum


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## marshalca

germantower said:


> I feel like the modern side that faces the Spree river is a mistake, an ugly modernist tumor growing out of the nicely reconstructed palace. There is hope they might redevelop that side.


The case is not that the modern part is bad, The fact is that it is a design that is repeating a lot in Berlin. It is not creative, or flashy, or brings anything to the city, a pity! since the building is very expensive for the city. Such an expensive building has to stand out in all its faces.
The old Berlin that was so creative, each building was more ornate than the previous one!


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## Darryl

erbse said:


> Some current pictures of the palace reconstruction:
> 
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> Source: all by Vulgow, Stadtbild-Forum


I can't see them unfortunately  (in Chrome or IE). I will try other browsers.


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## Darryl

Darryl said:


> I can't see them unfortunately  (in Chrome or IE). I will try other browsers.


I can see them on my phone. Thanks Erbse!!


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## MisterDae

I think that scaffolding is coming down in the next few months, then we’ll get a proper look.


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Just a Thought*

From photographs of the old palace that date before World War II, it is obvious that at that time the building, like a lot of other urban structures, was almost black from pollution. (This was most likely from the use of soft coal in the city at that time.) Even if the building had survived the war, it would have needed sandblasting to restore the original 17th century pastel color of the exterior.


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## erbse

Not sandblasting exactly, but definitely a fresh paintjob. The palace only had few visible sandstone elements.

Speaking of it, I can't wait until they finally give the Cathedral (Berliner Dom) a proper sandblast, it's so rusty!









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:View_from_Humboldtbox_-_Berlin_Cathedral.jpg?uselang=de


When shiny glazing new in 1905:









https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berliner-Dom-1905.jpg


And of course they should finally add the missing parts: memorial church, turrets, cupola.


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## Titan Man

I'm really "delicate" when it comes to buildings that have turned black over the years, they frustrate me on a strange level. :lol: I cringe so hard whenever I see photos of, particularly, Berlin Cathedral, Dresden's Hofkirche, Kreuzkirche and Zwinger, Potsdam's Neues Palais and Cologne Cathedral. Those few buildings really give me a hard time enjoying their beauty just because of that simple reason. I guess I like my architectural favourites to be in perfect, clean shape. It must be a mild form of OCD... :lol:


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## Darryl

Titan Man said:


> I'm really "delicate" when it comes to buildings that have turned black over the years, they frustrate me on a strange level. :lol: I cringe so hard whenever I see photos of, particularly, Berlin Cathedral, Dresden's Hofkirche, Kreuzkirche and Zwinger, Potsdam's Neues Palais and Cologne Cathedral. Those few buildings really give me a hard time enjoying their beauty just because of that simple reason. I guess I like my architectural favourites to be in perfect, clean shape. It must be a mild form of OCD... :lol:


The Altes Museum is also so dirty it is almost ugly.


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## Titan Man

Darryl said:


> The Altes Museum is also so dirty it is almost ugly.


Second that, but I'm sure they left it that way on purpose. You know, remember-the-war-through-pointless-ruins stuff...


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## wakka12

Its funny that weve such different opinions on this..but I think the dirt gives the buildings so much character. I love it personally. But I also love them all clean too so its no big deal


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## Wiederschönmachung

Where in Saxony? Depending on that, the sandstone could come from Saxony and Silesia at the same time, since a part of Silesia is in Saxony, so still in Germany nowadays.


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## Darryl

Architecture lover said:


> Goodness! Have they ever heard about laser techniques for cleaning up those marbles?
> The Parthenon looks fresher than that.


Regardless of the stone used, I know what he means. The Altes Museum looks horrible. Can't they just clean up that facade a little? Some buildup doesn't bother me, but those columns have always been just TOO dirty. It doesn't look nice.


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## Saxonia

Wiederschönmachung said:


> Where in Saxony? Depending on that, the sandstone could come from Saxony and Silesia at the same time, since a part of Silesia is in Saxony, so still in Germany nowadays.


_Sächsische Sandsteinwerke_ in Pirna, using stone from the Elbe Sandstone Mountains.


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## Architecture lover

Darryl said:


> Regardless of the stone used, I know what he means. The Altes Museum looks horrible. Can't they just clean up that facade a little? Some buildup doesn't bother me, but those columns have always been just TOO dirty. It doesn't look nice.


I know right? As if a war was raised in front of it just yesterday.
The Classical reviving marbles across the Atlantic ocean create a hazed effect of light around them. 

The point is, do something about it.


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## Saxonia

Marble and Sandstone are completely different things.


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## Architecture lover

They sure are. We are talking about the Altes Museum, it looks smoked, even if it's not marble, even if it's sandstone, after a proper laser clean up it shall look better.


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## HCM1000

By when is the construction expected to be over?


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## vankatalaan

HCM1000 said:


> By when is the construction expected to be over?


Fall 2019


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Stone and Grime*

What some of you may not realize is the fact that for years prior to environmental concerns a lot of cities allowed the burning of "soft" coal for heating and industrial purposes. This caused the stone surfaces of most buildings to turn black by degrees with it affecting some types of stone more than others. In the case of Berlin, all of the buildings around the Lustgarten already had turned black to varying degrees even prior to the second World War. In Paris, the Louvre and Notre Dame were good examples of what had once been pastel stone virtually having turned black. Those have now been cleaned and it has made all the difference in the world. Both the Altes Museum and the Berliner Dom could still use cleaning. Hopefully, this is in the planning stages. The results will be amazing!


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## Darryl

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> What some of you may not realize is the fact that for years prior to environmental concerns a lot of cities allowed the burning of "soft" coal for heating and industrial purposes. This caused the stone surfaces of most buildings to turn black by degrees with it affecting some types of stone more than others. In the case of Berlin, all of the buildings around the Lustgarten already had turned black to varying degrees even prior to the second World War. In Paris, the Louvre and Notre Dame were good examples of what had once been pastel stone virtually having turned black. Those have now been cleaned and it has made all the difference in the world. Both the Altes Museum and the Berliner Dom could still use cleaning. Hopefully, this is in the planning stages. The results will be amazing!


Interestingly, my brother (who lives in Berlin) lives in a building that still is heated by coal. He has an old-school ceramic coal furnace in his flat and they deliver coal in the winter for the whole building to use.


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## HCM1000

I just don't understand the reason they decided to make the back so ugly.


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## PapaleuPaes

Politics, i guess.


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## wakka12

Darryl said:


> Interestingly, my brother (who lives in Berlin) lives in a building that still is heated by coal. He has an old-school ceramic coal furnace in his flat and they deliver coal in the winter for the whole building to use.


That is crazy, I thought it was banned in most countries, especially in a very progressive country like germany I certainly would have thought so


----------



## Darryl

wakka12 said:


> That is crazy, I thought it was banned in most countries, especially in a very progressive country like germany I certainly would have thought so


I know! I was surprised as well. Seeing as Germany is so environmentally conscious.


----------



## TM_Germany

Stuff that is already built is protected here (Bestandsschutz), needless to say, it's not done anymore (You can't get a permit). However many cities do actually still have a very significant stock of 19th - 20th century buildings. Still, I thought most of those ovens were converted into wood or wood pellett ovens. I don't know anyone with a coal oven and my town has a lot of old buildings. It could be more common in the east, though.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Burning Coal*

It's not so much the fact that for many years they were burning coal, it's the type of coal that they were allowing them to burn. I agree, however, in environmentally conscious Germany, I'm surprised to learn that anyone is still allowed to burn coal for heating.


"Soft" coal produces a lot of smoke and results in smog which precipitates on the surfaces of many things including buildings. In St. Louis in America it was so bad at one time in the 1920s and 30s that it killed all of the coniferous trees and plants in the city. As late as the 1950s, they still burned enough of it in Nashville that I used a small mask of the kind normally used by commercial painters when I went to and from class when the smog was bad.


----------



## Tiaren

Talking about pollution and blackened stone, it might make some in here happy that they actually already started cleaning the surface of the Cathedral. This year they'll focus on the north-west tower, other parts of the Cathedral will follow step by step.

By Snork of Stadtbild Deutschland Forum:










These two statues were already cleaned and they give you an idea how the entire Cathedral will look like after it has been cleaned:


----------



## ThatOneGuy

Finally. Some patina is nice but it's too much when it looks like it was in a fire.


----------



## JustinHerman

Well whaddya know? After months of seeming inactivity on the palace exterior, the scaffolding in the Schlueter Hof is starting to come down. What's being revealed by its removal is nothing short of stunning.


----------



## Darryl

Tiaren said:


> Talking about pollution and blackened stone, it might make some in here happy that they actually already started cleaning the surface of the Cathedral. This year they'll focus on the north-west tower, other parts of the Cathedral will follow step by step.
> 
> By Snork of Stadtbild Deutschland Forum:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These two statues were already cleaned and they give you an idea how the entire Cathedral will look like after it has been cleaned:


Is that why I saw some scaffolding on part of the Dom in a recent photo?


----------



## AbidM

Beautiful stuff, Germany!


----------



## Seanrhine

They’re gonna remove that Samsung building thing or nah ?


----------



## RokasLT

edit


----------



## Darryl

Seanrhine said:


> Theyre gonna remove that Samsung building thing or nah ?


No, it's permanent.


----------



## PapaleuPaes

ThatOneGuy said:


> Finally. Some patina is nice but it's too much when it looks like it was in a fire.


Considering Berlin history it sort of make sense.


----------



## Seanrhine

What ? No ! 🤢


----------



## MisterDae

So, what are they currently working on? I haven’t seen much progress as of late. When are they doing the cupola?


----------



## wakka12

I quite like the Samsung Kiosk but it should be moved elsewhere seeing as its a world heritage site


----------



## Suburbanist

wakka12 said:


> I quite like the Samsung Kiosk but it should be moved elsewhere seeing as its a world heritage site


I think they should build a new Humbolt Box, with 3x this one's dimensions (and thus 27x volume), and put it on Treptow Park, to obfuscate the Soviet memorial that is there.


----------



## Tiaren

MisterDae said:


> So, what are they currently working on? I haven’t seen much progress as of late. When are they doing the cupola?


Most work is happening on the inside, on the outside they are mostly done with plaster works, the portals lagging a bit behind. Then the building only needs a paint job and the facades are finished.
Today the started removing scaffolding on parts of the north facade actually:
https://cam05.berlinerschloss-webcam.de/

No clue why the dome cladding hasn't started yet. :/


----------



## Weissenberg

Seanrhine said:


> They’re gonna remove that Samsung building thing or nah ?


Yes, it's called Humboldt-Box and it'll be dismantled after the Stadtschloss reconstruction has been completed.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Removing the Scaffolding*

In addition to the north facade, the central courtyard (the Schulterhof) also seems to be losing some of its scaffolding. There are several places apparent in the web camera image where it has obviously been removed.


----------



## JustinHerman

Perhaps they could disguise the Humboldt Box as the Schloßapotheke, cover it with ivy and move it closer to the river. Here's a rough idea of what it would look like:


----------



## wakka12

I still cant believe that riverside facade is going ahead in that form, everytime I see it Im just struck by how absolutely awful it looks, its not that horrible in itself but the contrast is just so jarring it almost ruins the building.Even a curtain wall would be a vast improvement. The rest looks to be coming along fantastic though

I also love the Schloßapotheke ^ What a charming little building. Ivy really gives so much character to buildings too.


----------



## MisterDae

I think they’re planning to add plants to the new facade?


----------



## Architecture lover

From what I've seen on old photos, that side of the palace looked sort of messy, you could've tell they didn't really have a precise idea or plan of what that side should look like.
It was rebuilt couple of times with a new building being added. 
One option was to rebuilt it completely as it was, with all the smaller side additions.
Another option is the one they've moved forward with. I believe, they did right, this way the uniformity is respected, following the height of the rest of the structure. If they used the same baroque facade for the new facade in my opinion in would've looked like improvisation, it would've given a faux appeal to the whole building. 
Using vines, or similar plants to make the new facade more organic sounds like a good idea.


----------



## vankatalaan

The point is that the "modern" facade is facing the "modern" -communist- Berlin therefore there's an architectural dialog between the two.


----------



## Darryl

I like the idea of covering the modern facade with greenery/ivy. I hope that truly is planned. It should help temper the severe juxtaposition between that side and the other three. Nice idea.

Particularly at the awkward corners where the two facade types meet. Looks weird with a highly ornamented baroque facade butting up against the stark modern un-ornamented one. Having that portion covered in ivy would help, and if I recall, it harkens back to history because I believe I saw photos that show that part of the orig building was covered in ivy anyways.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Good Question*

I never have understood why architects think that they should attach modernist additions to older buildings that were constructed in a completely different style. Here, a fourth side of the new building with it matching the other three would have made more sense.


Where I live, we have our state supreme court building that was constructed in the modernist style that was popular in the 1960s. Many years later they added a big new addition in neoclassical style. The local joke is that it looks like starship Enterprise docked at Versailles.


----------



## Saltovka

Any updates guys?


----------



## qjone2

marshalca said:


> What do you mean? After the building is almost finished ... to put it somewhere else? What has to be redesigned in a building that is a replica of the one that existed? The more accurate replicas are better, if you change them, it is best to do it all new... Do you mean the modern part?


He's talking about the National Kaiser Wilhelm Monument. It was destroyed by the Communist authorities in the 1950s and there were initially plans to reconstruct it alongside the City Palace, but currently the Monument to Freedom and Unity is planned in its place.


----------



## MisterDae

Roman_P said:


> Original of what?


The Kaiser Wilhelm memorial that ajoined the original building. It was a fantastic monument, but I fear Germans are too (unrightfully) ashamed of their history to build it. Although you never know for sure.


----------



## marshalca

the National Kaiser Wilhelm Monument is very beautiful and perfect for the place, Monument to Freedom and Unity is terrible, it looks like a monument from the 60s of the old communist regime of the eastern countries...


----------



## robertwood

Welcome back Tiaren!


----------



## Tiaren

marshalca said:


> What do you mean? After the building is almost finished ... to put it somewhere else? What has to be redesigned in a building that is a replica of the one that existed? The more accurate replicas are better, if you change them, it is best to do it all new... Do you mean the modern part?


I was replying to someone asking about the Einheitsdenkmal (Unity Memorial).



robertwood said:


> Welcome back Tiaren!


Thanks! I wasn't really away though. 

*Great news, everyone!*
Next week the remaining scaffolding on the north facade will fall and we will see the City Palace and two of its portals in full glory for the first time.:banana:


----------



## MisterDae

That is good news indeed.


----------



## pontbacalan

http://www.lepoint.fr/monde/berlin-clone-son-chateau-18-08-2018-2244256_24.php
about the palace


----------



## MisterDae

The scaffolding on one of the portals has been removed, allowing a view of one plane with its portal observable for the first time. I believe it is the North facade. All should be removed by the 26th of this month. Refer to relevant webcams to view the development.


----------



## Tiaren

The press was already invited a couple of day ago to the almost finished (some plastering, painting, balustrades and statues are still missing) City Palace:










Source: Berliner Zeitung, https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/berlin/preussische-pracht-und-moderne-berliner-schloss-laedt-zur-schnuppertour-31145194


----------



## Dr.Seltsam

IMG_5178 by AMS061974, auf Flickr


----------



## Tiaren

Video report about the City Palace (in German):


----------



## goschio

That modern piece looks like cancer. hno:


----------



## MisterDae

^ if anything it shows the failure of modern architecture, the contrast really boosts the argument for traditional design.


----------



## Architecture lover

No it doesn't. And we've had this kind of discussions before. Just because they've decided to build an underwhelming modern addition to what's supposed to be a historic building, doesn't boost any kind of argument. 
The bland side can't boost any kind of argument, since this single piece of architecture (again an underwhelming one) cannot speak against modern architecture as a whole. It cannot speak against Santiago's Oculus inspired buildings across France, Spain, Portugal, or North America, since it doesn't even fall in the same category. 
The bland side could never possibly devalue Shanghai Tower either.
It all depend of your short sight. If you can't see modern architecture outside of Germany thriving, it's your loss at the end of the day. You'll never get a Calatrava building in your city anyways.


----------



## Titan Man

^^
Well, in 2018, only a fool would want a Calatrava building in their city. Based on his reputation regarding the ever-growing costs of construction and the quality of execution, a city would be happier with some other starchitect gracing its skyline, and Berlin already has a respectable place among global capitals when it comes to imposing modern architecture.


----------



## Tiaren

People make it sound as if Germany can't do good modern architecture and if they didn't deliberately choose architecture that holds back as much as possible to not upstage and overwhelm the baroque facades.
Also, Franco Stella, the architect of the modern parts, isn't German but Italian and his architecture style is less close to modernism and closer to the reduced and monumental neoclassicism of 1930s and 1940s Italy.

I don't like the east facade either...but I actually can see its qualities and its consideration for the real star, the baroque palace. Franco Stella has great respect for the palace, thanks to him they were allowed to add more and more reconstructed parts. Other modern architects would've forbid it. Look at Potsdam. The architect of that palace reconstruction is openly against the palace reconstruction.


----------



## Architecture lover

Titan Man said:


> ^^
> Well, in 2018, only a fool would want a Calatrava building in their city. Based on his reputation regarding the ever-growing costs of construction and the quality of execution, a city would be happier with some other starchitect gracing its skyline, and Berlin already has a respectable place among global capitals when it comes to imposing modern architecture.


Yeah the British are such fools for appointing him just now to design them a massive residential project in London.
As far as Berlin's modern starchitect architecture yeah I can think of Norman Foster's Dome, but yet again it's merged with the Reichstag . The distrust this city has for modern architecture is apparent in its threads filled with hatred towards modern architecture and its capabilities, resulting in a poor cityscape which always appears rather bland. By focusing on rebuilding what was lost (I don't mind the reconstruction) prizing it as the only valuable architecture, this city definitely gambled with the abilities of new emerging styles. 

Good things come pricey, but the Ocolus in New York is already an icon, and it'll become even more so as generations of architecture enthusiasts pass, and the new ones will start to appreciate what starchitects did in the past. Just like we go mad for the icons by Mies. So many fools arcoss Europe, Canada and US for hiring the pricey controversial architect.



Tiaren said:


> People make it sound as if Germany can't do good modern architecture and if they didn't deliberately choose architecture that holds back as much as possible to not upstage and overwhelm the baroque facades.
> Also, Franco Stella, the architect of the modern parts, isn't German but Italian and his architecture style is less close to modernism and closer to the reduced and monumental neoclassicism of 1930s and 1940s Italy.


I live in the South (I know, such terrible economic situations.) but I gladly come across genuine Classical architecture on a regular basis. I can reassure the buildings in Italy that you're referring to, have nothing common with monumental or classical or neoclassical. They're part of a different branch and they have a different name. If the architects of 30's or 40's Italy wanted to revive neoclassicism, making it appear even more monumental, then they failed miserable, since the tiny little size of their buildings is forgettable, an effect caused by the actual Classical buildings overlooking the hills of Rome (who were ironically built two millenniums ahead and somehow managed to survive it all).


----------



## Darryl

Architecture lover said:


> You'll never get a Calatrava building in your city anyways.


Why couldn't Berlin get a Calatrava building??


----------



## Architecture lover

It's their approach for most of the time, so I do get an impression the city will never get an actual modern marvel representing contemporary styles bravely and proudly, not with this attitude.
It's completely consumed with rebuilding what was lost, sometimes at the coast of downgrading contemporary architecture. 
Anyways, regardless if you can, or you cannot understand my point, congrats on your reconstructed palace. It just feels as if they go from one extreme to another all of the time, you can reconstruct and even revive historic styles, but that shouldn't be done by limiting modern contemporary architecture or building examples that aspire to achieve...nothing.


----------



## Tiaren

Architecture lover said:


> You'll never get a Calatrava building in your city anyways.





Darryl said:


> Why couldn't Berlin get a Calatrava building??


*coughs*

Kronprinzenbrücke, Berlin, *Santiago Calatrava* 1992:












Architecture lover said:


> I live in the South (I know, such terrible economic situations.) but I gladly come across genuine Classical architecture on a regular basis. I can reassure the buildings in Italy that you're referring to, have nothing common with monumental or classical or neoclassical. They're part of a different branch and they have a different name. If the architects of 30's or 40's Italy wanted to revive neoclassicism, making it appear even more monumental, then they failed miserable, since the tiny little size of their buildings is forgettable, an effect caused by the actual Classical buildings overlooking the hills of Rome (who were ironically built two millenniums ahead and somehow managed to survive it all).



You seriously have no clue what you are talking about. Your Calatrava claim is wrong and you have no clue about Franco Stella either. Go research him and his influences.


----------



## MisterDae

Most people on here, like me, agree that a separate building using the new side would look nice, but we’re against it being tacked onto a baroque facade where it has no purpose or place. Instead of creating harmony (beauty) it creates discourse (ugliness).


----------



## Roman_P

goodybear said:


> What I don't understand is, why did they decide to make one of the facades look modern? Why couldn't they recreate all sides in the older style? On its own, the modern facade wouldn't look bad, but attached to the palace it just looks awful.



Because that riverbank side was never seamlessly blended with the rest of the palace. There were remnants of an older gothic castle there with traces of many rebuildings and alterations. To recreate it all from scratch would have been... well, weird.


----------



## ponsumkey

very nice!!!


----------



## AMS guy

Roman_P said:


> Because that riverbank side was never seamlessly blended with the rest of the palace. There were remnants of an older gothic castle there with traces of many rebuildings and alterations. To recreate it all from scratch would have been... well, weird.


I think most of the people here know that. But still there could be plenty of possibilities for doing it in another way. Why not to build a baroque facade at the riverbank side as well? I know, it would be a falsification, the ridiculous problem we have with architecture nowadays.


----------



## MisterDae

I’ve never understood the whole false architecture argument. Anything you build now is part of the time.. I wonder if they complained when they started building classical buildings in the renaissance since surely they’re ancient designs and not of ‘that’ time. Or gothic and Tudor designs in the 1800’s. It’s a ridiculous argument.


----------



## Tiaren

Great video documentation of the City Palace construction site opening:


----------



## MisterDae

Great video, thanks for sharing. In the video there’s a model of how Berlin used to look.. imagine if they rebuilt it all!


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Web Camera Kaput*

The Schlutehof camera has stopped working as of 8/8. I've sent their site a message to that effect. If any of you have a better contact with them, please let them know. From the short film above, it's obvious that all of the courtyard scaffolding had been taken down and they even held a concert in there.


----------



## TM_Germany

I believe it was actually taken down to create suspense until that event.


----------



## Tiaren

TM_Germany said:


> I believe it was actually taken down to create suspense until that event.


It was, but also because the webcam was fixed on the scaffolding that was now taken down. There will however be a new webcam installed in the coming weeks, so no need to worry.


----------



## mckeenan

--


----------



## germantower

That modernist side at the Spree looks even worse now that the scaffolding is down. I cant think of any reason, that the rebuilt castle needs such a bland and ugly annex. It makes no sense at all.


----------



## Kampflamm

All photos: https://humboldtforum.com/de/storys/fotostrecke-das-waren-die-letzten-tage-der-offenen-baustelle


----------



## Christi69

The result is impressive! However, the food carts seem quite odd in the grand courtyard (I know it's only for a specific event, but…)


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Statues*

Thank you for the photos of the Schluterhof. Do they plan to add the large statues at the tops of the columns that were part of the original building? It looks like the scaffolding would have helped with their installation if they do plan to add them.


----------



## Ludi

They gonna add them step by step. Depence on the donations.


----------



## AUTOTHRILL

AMS guy said:


> Maybe because it looks illogical? You will hardly find a baroque palace with a modernist facade, so why actually make a reconstruction with such an odd addition?


I totally agree, it is just so visually jarring. Totally incongruous, they should have just gone with one or the other- a modern style build or a faithful reconstruction. Why replicate 90% of the former building only to tack this strange facade on? 

Conversely, I don't actually mind the new builds included within Dresden's reconstructed streetscapes. These are just isolated, singular modern style builds interspersed with fairly faithful reconstructions. Individually, the buildings are either one thing (adhering to a modern, yet sympathetic style) or another (traditional reconstruction). A nice uban grain with differing styles is therefore the end product for Dresden. This Berlin build however is just a bizarre fusion of two opposing ideals, and I am disappointed to see it, however thrilled I am to see the rest of the structure fleshed out so skilfully in the older style.


----------



## MisterDae

I’m not sure why they couldn’t just copy the other sides and add a fourth wall, even if that’s not what was in the original palace. I suppose it’s a concession to the modernists who must stick their unwanted paws into everything..


----------



## AbidM

That's BEAUTIFUL!


----------



## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Thank you for the photos of the Schluterhof. Do they plan to add the large statues at the tops of the columns that were part of the original building? It looks like the scaffolding would have helped with their installation if they do plan to add them.


All of the statues have been commissioned already and are in the works. 
Two of the statues are finished already:

Antinous:









Borussia:


----------



## Kampflamm




----------



## upuptothesky

:rock:
































:drool:


----------



## GeneratorNL

^^ Awesome pictures. But that modern addition still makes me puke. Not because it is modern (I like the combination of classic and contemporary styles) but because it is poorly executed, which makes it cheap-looking and out of place. hno:


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Before and After*

A lot of that black discoloration of the walls of the old palace was due to the pollution from the burning of soft coal in the city and not because maintenance of the building was not being done. Keep in mind that for many years there was no way to clean the stone like there is these days.


On a different subject: If I were the city of Berlin, I would take out that bend in the road at the southwest corner of the building while all of this reconstruction is in progress. This looks like a good opportunity to do that.


----------



## melads

Really great job but the back of the building is hideous.


----------



## Real71

I find it very important what you are doing for your cities in Germany, recovering historical memory is essential. What some generations have done during the Second World War can not claim the right to cripple the secular memory of a country.


----------



## Mesheritage

*Stadtschloss Rittersaal 3D model - Africa*

Hi!

This time I am posting the 3D model for Schlüter relief of Africa. See the link!

https://skfb.ly/6CJOp


----------



## Fudgis

Great work, I'd love to see these magnificent reliefs return someday in a restored Rittersaal, the room appears to be well documented enough to make this a feasible option. I just hope that one day funding and will-power will prevail in making the return of some at least of these sumptuous interiors a possibility.


----------



## alterWhite

Im not a fan of this modernist addition either. It's far too imposing and it could be implemented much better than this


----------



## Mesheritage

Fudgis said:


> Great work, I'd love to see these magnificent reliefs return someday in a restored Rittersaal, the room appears to be well documented enough to make this a feasible option. I just hope that one day funding and will-power will prevail in making the return of some at least of these sumptuous interiors a possibility.


I think that the reconstruction of these rooms are a possibility. We are a group interested in 3D reconstructing these lost heritage artworks by using a technique called photogrammetry. The fact that we were able to create these models from the interior out of low quality pictures available on the internet just proves that there is enough documentation available for a future reconstruction.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Completion Date?*

From the video of the "open house" that they had of the interior of the almost completed building, it's hard to see how they need until next fall to have the official completion of this project. I realize that some work cannot take place in cold weather, but it certainly looks like other than the dome that's already done. Do any of you folks who are in Berlin have any thoughts and/or information on this? Just curious.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Can someone in Berlin let those of us on this forum know what the citizens and press there are thinking of the eastern wall of the Stadtschloss? I wish Mr. Stella would (somehow) explain this brutalist intrusion on such an otherwise splendid rebuilding of the palace. If there is a fund started to replace the east wall with something more in keeping with the rest of the building, I will contribute!


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

These buildings along the Seine in Paris are a good example of how much difference cleaning the stone can make. Hundreds of years of grime, much of it caused by burning things like soft coal, had turned these buildings black until they were cleaned in recent years. The same can be seen when you compare old photos of the Stadt Schloss with the present reconstruction.


----------



## keepthepast

Darryl said:


> I try so hard to ignore this (because I love this project), but it is so difficult. _*That transition *_from baroque to contemporary is SO HIDEOUS it just can't be ignored.


There is no transition. The designers obviously chose to NOT to create a transition; instead they wanted to make a statement that old and new both exist, as if we didn't already know that and needed a slap in the face to realize it. As with most politically motivated, commercially driven, and bureaucratically approved "art", this is a blunder.


----------



## Mesheritage

*Stadtschloss Rittersaal 3D model - Europe*

Hello!
Once again we managed to create a 3D model of Schlüter's reliefs. This time was "Europe" from photos before the destruction. See the link!

https://sketchfab.com/models/892756e410cd47fa98298344c868306b


----------



## Amrafel

From the pictures I must say that It would be better it its all modern. Maybe it will get better in time, but that "historical" part looks fake, despite the effort.


----------



## keepthepast

Amrafel said:


> From the pictures I must say that It would be better if its all modern. Maybe it will get better in time, but that "historical" part looks fake, despite the effort.


Maybe you don't know what fake means?


----------



## vankatalaan

I don't see how a reconstruction following the original design by the millimeter is fake.


----------



## JustinHerman

vankatalaan said:


> I don't see how a reconstruction following the original design by the millimeter is fake.


I agree. At one time, the original palace was new and most likely looked as pristine as the current reconstruction. But I can understand the perception of the new palace being "fake." After all, no matter how faithful the reconstruction, the rebuilt palace lacks the age, patina, and historical associations of the original. But that will come in time - barring another WWII or similar catastrophe of course.


----------



## Amrafel

I said it looks fake, not that it is fake (altough that can be said too - anything else than original is fake). Still I am not convinced if following the original design was the right idea. Modern design of the palace wouldn't ruin anything, if done well. 

However, it's true that Stadtschloss is reconstructed much more carefully than most of the buildings in Dresden with great attention to details and materials. As I said before, the overall feeling about the building might change with years. 

I just don't understand this general antipathy towards contemporary architecture. I don't think that in history of (Western) architecture it was ever on better level that it is now - maybe with exception during interbellum. Building should work in the first place and now the buildings are more functional than ever. And not only because of technology but architecture as well.


----------



## Dmerdude

The Eagle said:


> *What is just going on in here? Why the hostility?
> *
> 
> * Yes, I meant that the ecological footprint of electric cars is higher than regular cars. So what? Dmerdude says it is the other way. I guess it depends on what study you read! But that also means that both sides must be close, witch leaves us with the same problems, still.*



Back to my original point. You made that up. You did not cite a study. Both sides are not close. 

I do not understand why people feel the need to make up stuff when they can simply google things.

Once again:

Electric cars DO NOT "waste more oil [or emissions] at the moment, if one puts the manufacturing into account and the energy used in making the power" 

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/life-cycle-ev-emissions#.XBiF1M1rzIV

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-FAQ.pdf


----------



## keepthepast

Dmerdude said:


> I didn't bother about the financials since you make weird claims.


Weird claims because you don't understand corporate P&L and how "losing money" is calculated and assessed? Best you spend some time on google and educate yourself before you continue on your trek of calling out others when it is you who fabricates.


----------



## Dmerdude

keepthepast said:


> Weird claims because you don't understand corporate P&L and how "losing money" is calculated and assessed?


Weird claims such as you saying Eagle didn't say something, whereas he did, and I quoted Eagle saying that several times...

That's why I don't want to get into prolonged exchanges with you, when you don't read simple quoted stuff.



keepthepast said:


> Best you spend some time on google and educate yourself before you continue on your trek of calling out others when it is you who fabricates.


 Lol. It's funny you still weirdly go on about "fabricat[ing]" when everything is there and quoted multiple times.

PS: Best you spend some time on google and educate yourself about $5 trillion in oil and gas subsidies, before talking about companies like Tesla.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...fuel-subsidies-are-a-staggering-5-tn-per-year

You may have the last word, you will probably repeat yourself again. :lol:


----------



## keepthepast

^^

what's wrong with you???


----------



## TM_Germany

Guys. Please let's stop this OT. Keep calm and carry on.


----------



## tallmark

robertwood said:


> God I hate Commie/Leftists, I hate their collectivism over individual achievement and pretty much everything else they stand for. Look at THEIR architectural legacies. (Wonderful work in Bucharest boys!) They are ruining what was started in Dresden and now they are doing the same in Berlin. They really must be defeated.


Yes, we thought we saw the back of the rabbles in 1991 when the stinking Soviet "onion" fell into the garbage bin of history. NOOO, the commies are back with vengeance, this time taking over the US, Europe and the world, by using new names and designations, pulling down buildings, statues, preventing reconstructions etc. hno: It took all power of the Germans to even recreate the facade of the Schloss in Berlin. The inside is a simple commie "forum" for the party apparatchiks to gather and plan the demise of democracy. God help us all.


----------



## tallmark

artObserver said:


> It's sad, but this result was inevitable, since functionalism completely dominates in modern German architecture


Not functionalis, but Socialist "Realism". The function of a palace is to enchant the visitors and act as a museum of culture. This monstrosity of "forum" is a Socialist idea. Without it, the city of Berlin would not have been able to rebuild even the facade (really, only the skin of the facade) of the old Schloss. Communists did not disappear in Germany (or the world); they just changed their names and stylehno:


----------



## robertwood

tallmark said:


> Yes, we thought we saw the back of the rabbles in 1991 when the stinking Soviet "onion" fell into the garbage bin of history. NOOO, the commies are back with vengeance, this time taking over the US, Europe and the world, by using new names and designations, pulling down buildings, statues, preventing reconstructions etc. hno: It took all power of the Germans to even recreate the facade of the Schloss in Berlin. The inside is a simple commie "forum" for the party apparatchiks to gather and plan the demise of democracy. God help us all.


Interestingly, I happened to look up about cities being revitalized (gentrified) in the U.S. and what do I find on the internet? I find from places like Huffington Post and other Leftist sites about what a "problem" it is when mostly white tax paying people move back into cities. After all, they fix things up and bring new business thereby increasing property values which decreases the availability of low rent housing. Yes Lefties let's leave Detroit like it is so no one loses their low priced housing. It's incomprehensible to me why anyone would want to discourage our cities from coming back to life but there they are, the f**king Left again!


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Stick to the Subject*

Any chance you guys can take your political bickering somewhere else? This site is not supposed to be some sort of political forum. The best quote that I recall on the subject is "The trouble with Marx was that he lived before Freud. He didn't realize that everybody's property is nobody's property."


----------



## qjone2

robertwood said:


> Interestingly, I happened to look up about cities being revitalized (gentrified) in the U.S. and what do I find on the internet? I find from places like Huffington Post and other Leftist sites about what a "problem" it is when mostly white tax paying people move back into cities. After all, they fix things up and bring new business thereby increasing property values which decreases the availability of low rent housing. Yes Lefties let's leave Detroit like it is so no one loses their low priced housing. It's incomprehensible to me why anyone would want to discourage our cities from coming back to life but there they are, the f**king Left again!


This is a strawman. 

The concern about gentrification is not that cities are 'coming back to life', but that in doing so established populations are, in some cases, being completely displaced. This is more profound in America, where a lot of the discourse in the Anglosphere comes from, but it occurs to varying degrees in other places as well. In the American context, I especially understand the anger. Often, poor or minority groups were relegated to these old inner-city districts after the so called 'white flight' to the suburbs. Now that inner-city living in desirable again, those same social classes are returning, and the longterm communities that maintained these places (often during the urban decay of the last century) are being pushed out. 

Gentrification is a complex issue and I agree that often the blame in placed on individuals when really it is the result of overarching economic and social systems.


----------



## keepthepast

qjone2 said:


> This is a strawman.
> 
> The concern about gentrification is not that cities are 'coming back to life', but that in doing so established populations are, in some cases, being completely displaced. This is more profound in America, where a lot of the discourse in the Anglosphere comes from, but it occurs to varying degrees in other places as well. In the American context, I especially understand the anger. Often, poor or minority groups were relegated to these old inner-city districts after the so called 'white flight' to the suburbs. Now that inner-city living in desirable again, those same social classes are returning, and the longterm communities that maintained these places (often during the urban decay of the last century) are being pushed out.
> 
> Gentrification is a complex issue and I agree that often the blame in placed on individuals when really it is the result of overarching economic and social systems.


Hmmm. Not a straw man and the situation not exactly as you describe, but can discuss in another place, if anyone wishes.


----------



## qjone2

keepthepast said:


> Hmmm.* Not a straw man *and the situation not exactly as you describe, but can discuss in another place, if anyone wishes.


It is. They set up an absurd representation of the issue (i.e. the Left want to 'discourage our cities from coming back to life') and attacked that instead of actually engaging with the complex realities of the issue at hand. 

But I agree with your other point. Not really worth discussing here.


----------



## Throstlem

It is very helpful and at the same time very beneficial for all people


----------



## robertwood

qjone2 said:


> It is. They set up an absurd representation of the issue (i.e. the Left want to 'discourage our cities from coming back to life') and attacked that instead of actually engaging with the complex realities of the issue at hand.
> 
> 
> Since no new pictures are being posted of the palace...
> 
> That would be me who set up the "absurd representation." If you do not want to see lower income people displaced because of gentrification what would you call that if not a discouragement of cities coming back to life? It takes people actually living in a city to make it a place worth visiting or living in. To me, it is natural and normal for the people living in cities to change over time. Do you think building a bunch of low cost housing so as not to displace low rent housing would cause urban revitalization? I think that one was tried in the 50s and 60s. People need to understand the Left and the danger they philosophically pose to things like urban revitalization and, as I noted before, the rebuilding/ recreations of lost monuments in Germany. I am not aware of any conservative or "right wing" groups who are opposed to gentrification of cities or the rebuilding of lost German monuments. If you are aware of any let me know. I was just pointing put my amazement to see opposition to gentrification. I was surprised to find people who think that gentrification is a "problem," their words not mine. The opposition comes from the Left. It is the Left who politicizes everything and urban revitalization is no exception I guess. I am not politicizing this. I was just pointing out my shock that the Left already had.


----------



## The Eagle

*A good evening everybody! Lets do a little swing by here in Berlin! I like to put the focus back to the progress. Good news: The project is still on time! The ongoing construction boom in Berlin makes it a challenge. It gets increasing difficult to get scaffoldings or cranes rented! We will see... *









*That blue building that housed the reconstructions management has seen its last days.(On the right) They started to take her down:*













































*The restaurant on top of the roof:*








Thank You, Mantikor!


----------



## Pamparam

Modern facade looks not all that bad in these pics.


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## wakka12

Agree, starting to like it a bit more now.


----------



## Architecture lover

Who (and when) came up with the idea of the smaller (sort of pale) building, right from the palace in the last photo? I've never seen something so distastefully unproportional: 2 small windows in what appears to be a blank wall, and in the front full row of such tiny, but heavily concentrated windows again. So bad.

Also the concrete top above the roof of the actual palace looks like favela planing.


----------



## keepthepast

Architecture lover said:


> Who (and when) came up with the idea of the smaller (sort of pale) building, right from the palace in the last photo? I've never seen something so distastefully unproportional: 2 small windows in what appears to be a blank wall, and in the front full row of such tiny, but heavily concentrated windows again. So bad.
> 
> .


That building is not next to the Stadtschloss; it is across the river. It is a partially-faithful (emphasis on partial!) reconstruction of the original baroque structure on the site, but was designed to meet the contemporary needs of the current owner/user. I think its great. Fits well in the area in terms of scale, design, and historic perspective.


----------



## pccvspw999

Architecture lover said:


> Who (and when) came up with the idea of the smaller (sort of pale) building, right from the palace in the last photo? I've never seen something so distastefully unproportional: 2 small windows in what appears to be a blank wall, and in the front full row of such tiny, but heavily concentrated windows again. So bad.
> 
> Also the concrete top above the roof of the actual palace looks like favela planing.


Are You talking about the “Komandantenhaus”?
I think You shall reconsider Your opinion after You’ve seen it under a real prospective.


----------



## wakka12

It looks fine,nothing ground breaking, but I can think of many thousands of worse buildings in berlin than it


----------



## goschio

That modern facade looks even worse than I thought. hno:


----------



## Architecture lover

pccvspw999 said:


> Are You talking about the “Komandantenhaus”?
> I think You shall reconsider Your opinion after You’ve seen it under a real prospective.


Exactly! I saw it was reconstructed after 1995. I believe they should've done better efforts in turns of the principles of Neo- Renaissance architecture. 
I believe a Palazzo style building would've worked better for the area, like this one in Manchester, but howsoever, it's true the area has other buildings to take care of. 











Source


----------



## keepthepast

^^

most the exterior of the Komandantenhaus was designed, appropriately, to appear as close to the original lost in WWII as possible. That was one of the objectives for the area's overall redevelopment.


----------



## Tiaren

Oh, dear, this thread turned into such a mess, and by the usual suspects I see.

Regarding the Alte Kommandantur. It is an exact replica of the original and there is nothing wrong with it:



















And now back to topic please.


----------



## vankatalaan

In order to stop with the OT, what happens that they're not working on the dome and raising the sculptures in the facades where they already removed the scaffolding?

I get the feeling that at this pace the inauguration date will arrive before that is done.


----------



## The Eagle

*Just a quick stop to offload some pictures! 
How is everyone doing? Good, I hope?! Enjoy:*










*At vankatalaan: The project is on time and on budget! Keep in mind the size of the project! It is the size of 400 family homes of 5 people each! That does not include the roofed inner courts! We will get the museums for Asia, Oceania and Africa, plus a library, operated by the University of Humboldt (Berlin) and public conference rooms of epic proportions. *



























Thanks, Mantikor!


----------



## Kampflamm

This completely ruins the appearance of the palace from arguably the most important/popular angle. What an eyesore.


----------



## albanyjd

Seems like now may be a good time to remove the Humboldt Box to allow for the sweeping views of the Stadtschloss from the Lustgarten.


----------



## Darryl

Kampflamm said:


> This completely ruins the appearance of the palace from arguably the most important/popular angle. What an eyesore.


Kampflamm - Do you mean the Humboldt Box or the Komandantenhaus?


----------



## Weissenberg

albanyjd said:


> Seems like now may be a good time to remove the Humboldt Box to allow for the sweeping views of the Stadtschloss from the Lustgarten.


Considering the scuffolding I'd say that's exactly what they're doing. Also, I assume the legendary blue waterpipes will disappear from the site once the construction has been completed?


----------



## pccvspw999

The blue pipes are functional to the build of U5 (ground water management), the new metro beneath Under den Linden. Once this ended, these will surely disappear.


----------



## matt_12

Impressive... modern facade looking better than expected!


----------



## Tiaren

Darryl said:


> Kampflamm - Do you mean the Humboldt Box or the Komandantenhaus?


I'm pretty sure he meant the roof restaurant.


----------



## Darryl

pccvspw999 said:


> The blue pipes are functional to the build of U5 (ground water management), the new metro beneath Under den Linden. Once this ended, these will surely disappear.


Haha those pipes are a signature of Berlin to me. I associate them with Berlin. I'm not sure I've ever been there without seeing those brightly colored above-groud pipes for the omnipresent construction projects. I don't see that in other cities.


----------



## TM_Germany

Berlin's ground water table is extremely high, just a couple meters below the surface afaik. In most other cities, you just don't need to pump away that much water for construction.


----------



## albanyjd

Will the Neptune fountain be returned to its original place in front of the south facade?


----------



## Steve Gatlin

*Humboldt Box*

It looks, from the most recent photos, that the Humboldt Box has scaffolding on it. Does that mean that it is about to be removed?


----------



## Tiaren

Steve Gatlin said:


> It looks, from the most recent photos, that the Humboldt Box has scaffolding on it. Does that mean that it is about to be removed?


Yes, it finally and fortunately is being torn down right now.


----------



## Heinrich Harrer

Kampflamm said:


> This completely ruins the appearance of the palace from arguably the most important/popular angle. What an eyesore.


The cafe on top? Come one, this is not a castle, it is a modern forum by the people for the people. And the cafe ist the best symbol for it, the view from above will be fantastic.

If you are able to look to the building and think it is a castle, you will also be able to ingnore the cafe. It is just imagination.


----------



## Ioannes_

I just read a book about Alexander von Humboldt's stay in Spain. I was in favor of the reconstruction of the palace, but with a nod to the palace of the republic in the back. But I did not understand why most of the new museum was dedicated to one person: Humboldt. I saw in it, an anodyne ethnographic exhibition that could be developed in any a minor building. After reading the character, not only do I think he deserves it, but the dimension of his person, the first ecologist and influencer of people like Darwin, deserves more. I am in love with this work and its new universal meaning.


----------



## keepthepast

^^

Yes, Humboldt was far more of an important historical figure than he gets noted for, particularly internationally. Anything that bears his name is well deserved and let's hope that his work, insights, studies, and energies dedicated to the value of the planet and its people will have more notice and advocacy.


----------



## JustinHerman

Steve Gatlin said:


> It looks, from the most recent photos, that the Humboldt Box has scaffolding on it. Does that mean that it is about to be removed?


Judging from the webcam, it appears that they're well into the process of dismantling it. I'm a little sad to see it come down; for all these years it was there, a part of palace reconstruction and I'd grown attached to it. Judging from posts over the years, a lot of others grew to like it, too. It's slow disappearance marks the end of an exciting era. 

It's not all bad news; I believe it was Erbse who wrote a long time ago that the Humboldt Box would be rebuilt elsewhere.


----------



## Tiaren

JustinHerman said:


> It's not all bad news; I believe it was Erbse who wrote a long time ago that the Humboldt Box would be rebuilt elsewhere.


Erbse never said that, because he's usually well informed and would know that the Humboldt Box won't be rebuilt anywhere else. It's history. 
There's also hardly anyone in Berlin/Germany who is missing it. Everyone is actually happy it's going since it obscures the view down Unter den Linden, the view to the Palace and no one likes huge advertisements, which made up of most of its facade in the past years, and that right in the historic heart of the city.


----------



## MisterDae

Tiaren said:


> Erbse never said that, because he's usually well informed and would know that the Humboldt Box won't be rebuilt anywhere else. It's history.
> There's also hardly anyone in Berlin/Germany who is missing it. Everyone is actually happy it's going since it obscures the view down Unter den Linden, the view to the Palace and no one likes huge advertisements, which made up of most of its facade in the past years, and that right in the historic heart of the city.


Good riddance.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Unity Monument along the river*

Have there been any new developments regarding the so-called "Unity Monument" that has been proposed for the site out in front of the rebuilt palace that once held the monument to Wilhelm I?


----------



## The Eagle

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> Have there been any new developments regarding the so-called "Unity Monument" that has been proposed for the site out in front of the rebuilt palace that once held the monument to Wilhelm I?






*Hello Joe! Nice to have You back! It is an important question many people probably have. So lets get to it:*


*There are legal battles around it. There is a left group of self proclaimed "Anti Germans" who like to put a modern memorial here to celebrate Germanys reunification. The location is way off. This group admitted in the open that the intension is to prevent the re-construction of the former reunification memorial celebrating the reunification of 1871.*

*The situation: Over 85% don't support this idea. To stop it there are legal battles. Several at the same time. Like when the construction was supposed to start, but it was pointed out that the builder did not own the plot. Witch took months to correct. Then came the environmental problems with the bats. After that took a half year, the construction permit expired. There is a new construction permit, but a new feasibility study will need to be made about the weight distribution. The monuments protection is also the way, because of destruction of the basement and the mosaics in the floor. There is also no solution for the handicapped accessibility on the platform. Anyhow, the future could look like this: No construction because of more studies. After that the budget should be out the window. This would require a new vote from the Government about an budget increase. After that we will likely see a study about the subway construction. After that we will encounter an expired construction permit and so on. Keep in mind that the monument survived the war undamaged, but was demolished by the communists. An semi reconstruction without Germanys first Kaiser of the second Reich is the alternative option. In part as a pay back to the communists for their demolition. So, there is a major battle behind the scenes. The longer it takes, the more likely we get the "new" monument at a different and a more appropriate location for the union of 1990 and here at this place an "traditional" monument commemorating the union of 1871*


----------



## Fudgis

Most interesting, I'd long suspected the new monument was being promoted for that location purely to block the reconstruction of the historic edifice, and all so recently there were positive indications that the colonnades of the Nationaldenkmal at least might be rebuilt, which would complement the carefully reconstructed main facade far better than that bronze seesaw! I hope this can still come to pass in due course, there does seem to be significant interest in the historic monument with the restoration of its surviving base and mosaics, there's some interesting details of the mosaic floor at the following article (in German).
https://www.piepo-restaurierung.de/...ews]=2&cHash=68b8e77d4538285398a9691e6ea2b02c

I guess a complete reconstruction of the pre-war monument will remain a fantasy for the present, given how much political opposition it stirs (from the Left at least). Reconstructing the former colonnades would be great even if they left it at that, though even some of the sculptures returning would look amazing (like bringing the four lions back from the zoo!).


----------



## The Eagle

*Oh yes! The new monument is on that spot for exactly that propose. But the situation changes by the day. 
That is also the reason that nobody bothers to put some information into SSC. A few months ago, as an example, 
the modern memorial actually got cancelled by the financial administration!! 
The 1990`s memorial got out of budget and got canceled! 
Two days later (or something like that) The 1871 memorial got its money approved. You should have seen the party in the German Forums! 
In the APH (Architectura Pro Homine) and the DAF (Deutsches Architectur Forum) 
But before the news made it into here, it was all changed back like before with more money for the 1990`s memorial. 
I thought you may want to know of how volatile the situation is. It is crazy!

Anyway, what I actually came for. Pictures taken 15th of February: *
































































*Please scroll to the right. This is a large picture for details:*






















































*Here, we have both No 4 Portals in one picture! Btw.: Both are copies.*








Thank You, Mantikor!


----------



## keepthepast

the very pale yellow is perfect. Hope this is the final finish.


----------



## Steven DL

Fudgis said:


> Most interesting, I'd long suspected the new monument was being promoted for that location purely to block the reconstruction of the historic edifice, and all so recently there were positive indications that the colonnades of the Nationaldenkmal at least might be rebuilt, which would complement the carefully reconstructed main facade far better than that bronze seesaw! I hope this can still come to pass in due course, there does seem to be significant interest in the historic monument with the restoration of its surviving base and mosaics, there's some interesting details of the mosaic floor at the following article (in German).
> https://www.piepo-restaurierung.de/...ews]=2&cHash=68b8e77d4538285398a9691e6ea2b02c






This is an amazing find! Gorgeous :banana:
Thank you for pasting in the reference link


----------



## White Light

Humbolt box is going away


----------



## Steven DL

For the neighboring building, the Bauakademie, that is intended to be reconstructed, 62 million EUR have been put aside.

Unfortunately it's still not clear whether the plan is to reconstruct the original building or to build something entirely new.

It's not a new discussion but definitely one to follow as it's an interesting one - with lots of potential in the heart of historical Berlin.

Source and read more:

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/kultur/...nstruktion-oder-blosses-konzept/23952528.html






After WW2:


----------



## JustinHerman

erbse said:


> You should check the Berlin Castle Webcam:
> 
> *www.cityscope.de/bss*


It's sad to see it go. 

I think I need to clarify. I don't know how I stumbled upon this site years ago, but I did - and instantly became addicted. I could scarcely believe that Kulturpalast had been demolished and that Berliner Stadtschloss was actually being reconstructed. To me, it was as earthshaking as the collapse of East Germany years earlier. It still is. Since then, I have visited every day - lurking here for some time before taking the plunge and signing up. I'm glad I did. It has been supremely fascinating to read comments posted daily by all the members here, pore over photos (both historic and contemporary), and watch the palace walls rising from the ground via the webcams.

As Erbse's post from 2012 shows, the Humboldt Box has been a part of that since the beginning. I've always disliked the box - even more so as the baroque walls of the palace rose behind it - and viewed it with the same contempt in which I still hold the parking garage-like wall of the palace's river facade. Still, as the palace nears completion, the dismantling of the box symbolizes the winding down of an exciting reconstruction project that has captivated me, and others here, each and every day for the past eight years. 

Perhaps the box will make a reappearance at Germany's next big reconstruction project, whatever, and whenever, that will be.


----------



## Fudgis

JustinHerman said:


> It's sad to see it go.
> 
> I think I need to clarify. I don't know how I stumbled upon this site years ago, but I did - and instantly became addicted. I could scarcely believe that Kulturpalast had been demolished and that Berliner Stadtschloss was actually being reconstructed. To me, it was as earthshaking as the collapse of East Germany years earlier. It still is. Since then, I have visited every day - lurking here for some time before taking the plunge and signing up. I'm glad I did. It has been supremely fascinating to read comments posted daily by all the members here, pore over photos (both historic and contemporary), and watch the palace walls rising from the ground via the webcams.


I know exactly where you're coming from, that sounds very like own experiences when I discovered these forums, easily the best resource around to follow these remarkable projects, and a highly addictive one too! 

I also share some affection for the Humboldt Box, I personally liked it as a neat bundle of contemporary architecture, but it has outstayed its welcome now, too at odds with its surroundings to be anything more than temporary, but I do think it's a shame it can't be dismantled and rebuilt for a new role somewhere else (less architecturally sensitive).

It is incredible to see how far along this journey we've come, when I first visited Berlin in 1991 the Wall had only just come down and back then the idea that the Palast der Republik could be replaced with a rebuilt Schloss seemed unthinkable, though I remember dreaming it all the same even then. How incredible to see what has been achieved since, the gaping wound at the heart of old Berlin has at last been magnificently healed!

Keep up the good work Berlin, here's to many more: I really hope the Bauakademie will be next!


----------



## Tiaren

keepthepast said:


> the very pale yellow is perfect. Hope this is the final finish.


It is the final finish, and it indeed looks really pretty. Especially each afternoon/evening when it shines as if it was painted with gold:


















Photos by Mantikor (https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?thread/2597-berliner-schloss-humboldt-forum/&postID=308868#post308868


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial*

How is it that they could reconstruct the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial statue at Koblenz at the Deutsches Eck without it being the controversy that it apparently has become in Berlin? I assume that leftist elements have always been more active and vocal in the capitol than elsewhere in Germany. Is that part of it? 



That modernistic monstrosity has no place in front of a baroque building.


----------



## MisterDae

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> How is it that they could reconstruct the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial statue at Koblenz at the Deutsches Eck without it being the controversy that it apparently has become in Berlin? I assume that leftist elements have always been more active and vocal in the capitol than elsewhere in Germany. Is that part of it?
> 
> 
> 
> That modernistic monstrosity has no place in front of a baroque building.


It is not decided upon yet, but yes, it is a leftist proposal intended to subvert the national pride Germans will feel when they see the building. They have a parasitic need to destroy everything linked to the concept of a 'nation' and will therefore ugly-fy or tear down any symbol of national unity and pride.


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

*Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial*

If restoring the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial is so controversial in Berlin, how did they get the one in Koblenz at the Deutsches Eck rebuilt? That one is huge and even more prominent than the one in Berlin.

Does the fact that leftist elements have always been more prevalent and vocal in the capitol enter into this?


----------



## Saxonia

That is a different story. First, the monument at Deutsches Eck was not completey demolished, unlike the one in Berlin. Only the statue was missing. Its reconstruction was suggested already in the late 80s. But the state government of Rhineland-Palatinate denied the offer of a private club to reconstruct it. It should stay a memorial for german unity, as it was rededicated in 1953 by Theodor Heuss with a big flagpole on the basement. The statue was then reconstructed by the club without asking the government and presented as a gift after the reunification. There were many discussions but in the end, the area of the memorial was given to the city of Koblenz by the government and the city took the gift.


----------



## Wiederschönmachung

Tiaren said:


> Greek gods and goddesses return to the City Palace:


Wait, are those the original statues?


----------



## Tiaren

Wiederschönmachung said:


> Wait, are those the original statues?


They ineed are. They've been showcased for years in Bode-Museum and now they finally moved into the lapidarium of the City Palace. Copies of those statues are in the works, some are already finished, and will be taking their original place on the outside facades.


----------



## JustinHerman

vankatalaan said:


> I'll add one more level of complexity: the environment -urban or rural- and the architecture that defines your surroundings, the spaces, the shapes, the materials, will influence they way you develop and 'wire your brain' to see, act, and understand reality.
> 
> The places where we live change us as much as we change them.


And yet one more level of complexity: Whether liberal (which I consider myself) or conservative, a reverence for history - or lack of it - definitely influences a person's architectural likes and dislikes.


----------



## PortoNuts

Great to see this coming along.


----------



## Roman_P

Steve Gatlin said:


> A modern replacement for it would be a crime to those of us who appreciate such a pioneering example of fine architecture from that period.


That would be especially moronic considering that the Bauakademie was one of the earliest predecessors of that style that we call now 'modern'.


----------



## Roman_P

JustinHerman said:


> And yet one more level of complexity: Whether liberal (which I consider myself) or conservative, a reverence for history - or lack of it - definitely influences a person's architectural likes and dislikes.



In today's Russia it doesn't work. Whether liberal or conservative, left or right, communist or monarchist, pro-Putin or anti-Putin - they all tend to like bad architecture.:lol:


----------



## erbse

Just on a sidenote: Great current updates of the Schloss can always be found at the German-speaking *Stadtbild Forum (APH)*! 




Seanrhine said:


> I’m a liberal and I’m the biggest fan of traditional architecture, I actually hate modern architecture. Your political stance doesn’t define your taste.


Same here! kay:

We btw agreed in the aforementioned Stadtbild Forum to keep out politics (as long as it doesn't directly affect construction/the project). Same should be (again) applied here, thanks.


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello everyone!

We talk different countries here. In Germany it is considered "Left" and political correct to be against reconstruction. 
But then again, there is even a difference between German cities! Who knew? 

And now, Ladies and Gentleman, let me invite everyone here to a cup of fresh tea or hot coffee! This, 
we serve with some nice and new pictures. (Made yesterday)
Here we go: *





































*The color is a really good blend, I think! Not quite beige, not crazy yellow! Just good.*


















*Portal five is needing same more finishing. A different contractor is building scaffolding. It is getting hard to do so: 
There is a construction boom! Scaffolding are very hard to come by!*









*They just added more golden deco!*








source by Mantikor. Thank You!


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## Tiaren

The crowning lantern (and cross) are already in the works:









https://www.humboldtforum.com/de/inhalte/fassade


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## MisterDae

When is the dome roof and lantern etc supposed to be installed? The Dome has sat barren for years now.


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## Tiaren

The dome is supposed to receive its cladding very soon actually, in the coming days/weeks, but it wouldn't be a Berlin construction site if there wasn't a last minute delay, and then another one...
The lantern and cross aren't finished yet, but they are supposed to be crowing the dome by the end of this year. Supposedly. Calculate a couple delays in there too.


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## erbse

So looking forward to the lantern! My personal favourite part of the Palace. :drool:



















Source: https://humboldtforum.com/de/inhalte/fotos-der-kuppel


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## Roman_P

erbse said:


> Source: https://humboldtforum.com/de/inhalte/fotos-der-kuppel



The dome is going to look great indeed but still it's a pity that there will be less statues compared to what used to be.
Probably there's not enough evidence left to recreate them? Or pure money saving?


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## keepthepast

Since the graphic cutaway includes a human form, will tourists be allowed to climb to the lantern area for the view and closeup inspection of the statues and other artwork?


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## Tiaren

Roman_P said:


> The dome is going to look great indeed but still it's a pity that there will be less statues compared to what used to be.
> Probably there's not enough evidence left to recreate them? Or pure money saving?


Huh? The new lantern will feature just as many angels as the original.



keepthepast said:


> Since the graphic cutaway includes a human form, will tourists be allowed to climb to the lantern area for the view and closeup inspection of the statues and other artwork?


The dome and lantern are not planned to be open to the public. The human figure is probably there for size comparison.


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## shayarionly

*City Palace Reconstruction*



GFM 3D said:


> You can see the progress of Dresden reconstruction project here: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=250017&pp=20&page=1000
> 
> Here is a detailed ground view of the Stadtschloss as it was before:
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> (source)
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> Some past views:
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> First courtyard (Eosanderhof):
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> Second courtyard (Schlüterhof) Both paintings are by Eduard Gaertner.
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> How it would look when finished:
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> Following pictures from Welt Online
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> From Unter den Linden
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> Full set of pictures: "http://www.welt.de/kultur/article4980591/[/URL]Franco-Stellas-ueberarbeitete-Plaene.html"http://www.welt.de/kultur/article4980591/[/URL]Franco-Stellas-ueberarbeitete-Plaene.html[/url]


I cant wait to see it :banana:


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## Roman_P

Tiaren said:


> Huh? The new lantern will feature just as many angels as the original.


No, i didn't mean the lantern. 

According to old photos there used to be statues around the dome which are missing in the new project.


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## Tiaren

Roman_P said:


> No, i didn't mean the lantern.
> 
> According to old photos there used to be statues around the dome which are missing in the new project.


As far as I know the statues were included when the dome was entirely donated. So the statues will come back, the only question is when, because it does take several months to finish just one statue.

Last but not least, as I have mentioned a lot in this thread, never trust a visualization.  Dozens have been made over the years, official ones and unofficial ones. Often times whoever makes the visualization does not know what is actually planned or not. Also modelling statues or details like the cross in 3D takes some time and effort so its often left out. 
The mentioned visualization is for example also missing the banner around the tambour, which they decided will also return.


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## MisterDae

Some web cam images of the site as of today (5/4/19).







Here you can see the North facade. On the bottom right side you can see scaffolding that was put up only yesterday. That is to finish off the walls surrounding that lower level of windows.








Here you can see one portal. Not too long ago all the scaffolding was removed here, but now it has returned, they are adding the finishing touches to the portal.








Here you can see that the dismantling of the Humbolt Forum is nearly complete. I expect it to be entirely removed by the end of April. Then we will have, for the first time, a complete view of that side of the facade.


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## Lawsos12

Hi, long time reader first time comment.

Always enjoy updates on the Kaiser Wilhelm memorial, last heard they were thinking of funding the colonnades?

Could I ask the German members if it’s true they are thinking of rebuilding the Schloss in Konigsberg/Kaliningrad? Am loathe to bring up ‘the war’ but I’m quite interested in East Prussian history and it’s difficult to find information. I realise this isn’t the thread for this....


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## Tiaren

Very recent video impressions of the City Palace.


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## MisterDae

The Dome cladding is currently being added.








As of today.


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## maxxe

25.05.



dubaibobby said:


> Eine abgespeckte Version der Ausstellung aus der ehem. Humboldt-Box ist nun bis zur Eröffnung des HF am Werdeschem Markt zu sehen, der Eintritt ist frei. Die Kuppel soll bis September komplett eingedeckt sein, diese Woche gings los.
> 
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> Bilder von gestern


----------



## d.henney

Whoever made this cafe on the rooftop: F* *u!


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## Joe Whalen 7

What are the gray container-looking things at the end of the square just across the river from the main entrance to the city palace? Honestly, they look like shipping containers that are usually just loaded onto ships. Does anyone happen to know? Just curious.


----------



## Tiaren

The large scale paving (as big as 4 football/soccer fields) around the City Palace has begun. The executing firm is Eurovia. They released some photos on their social media platforms:




























The paving is done in Berlin's typical 19th century way, meaning it will have a historical rather than a modern look. The paving design is similar to that of nearby Unter den Linden:










The laterns you see on the historical photo, the so called Schupmann Candelabra...










...will also be used again.

All in all that is very good news. The area surrounding the City Palace might lack greenery, as many have complained about, but it will have an elegant, historical look, framing the Palace well.


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## Heinrich Harrer

Last Weekend:


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## Ludi

Super nice Fotos. :cheers:


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## The Eagle

*Lets put some pictures in here! We are all hungry for information!
So sit back, relax and enjoy!*




























*Unbelievable, people! Also keep in mind the size of the windows for example!*




































*Window first floor, south side;*









*Mezzanine window, south side;*








Thanks, Fusajiro! FFB forum.


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## The Eagle

*The Stadt-Schloss will be used as event space, library will go in and the rest (like lol) will be integrated into the "Museum Island complex" It is a collection of museums, 
but interconnected with tunnels for example. If the Museum Island complex would have been one museum (witch it basically is, it has one director) 
it would be the largest museum in the world! The number one currently is the Louvre in Paris. It will stay that way, 
because this is called a "group of museums". Germany is doing so to keep the French happy. Now back to the pictures:*

*This is portal 1;*









*The lanterns being rebuild also; The metal works are right here in Berlin;*




















*The biggest pice of sand stone is several tons heavy. It is an angel. An corner piece that comes later;*





















*The sculpture with the helmet is bigger and higher than a man!*





















*Window 2. story south side;*










*Every eagle is handmade and different;*








Fusajiro, thank you very much!


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## The Eagle

*Now, let`s get started with portal 2;*






















*The interior; we see the other side of the castle with its portal;*










*To give an idea: each "teeth" of this fries is higher than a man!!*





















*The build was and is a huge economic boost! No Chinese made here! 
I don't know what England is waiting with their crystal palace for?!?!*




















































*The light sets different colors and moods! *










*"Sankt Ulbricht" in the distance:*



















source is Fusajiro, thanks!


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## The Eagle

*Take a look from the front. *












*Now the western side;*










*A little bit more shabby chic - and one could think of Cuban architecture!! I guess we have to wait for that! *










*On the second floor;*










*This is Portal 3;*










*The angel is the heaviest piece of all hand hewn stone I was talking about:*


















































All thanks go to member Fusajiro.


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## erbse

I just love those window profiles!

One of the most beautiful and individual baroque facades in the world is back.
So glad to see this magnificence in my lifetime.


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## Darryl

What do we like about the windows? Is it the size? The proportions? I'm serious. I just want to learn to appreciate whatever it is you are admiring about the windows. I love this project, so I'm not being sarcastic. I just want to learn what it is about windows I should be appreciating. I was kinda feeling like the white pieces in the windows kinda detract from the historic look of the rest of the facade. Like if they were dark wood I think it would look better.


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## Dmerdude

Heinrich Harrer said:


> Last Weekend:
> 
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> ...



The architects must have done the "modern" side so bad on purpose to form a societal consensus against ugly modern interpretations of historic buildings...


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## Sir Moc

Here are some simliar pictures as a 4k video, enjoy


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## The Eagle

Darryl said:


> What do we like about the windows? Is it the size? The proportions? I'm serious. I just want to learn to appreciate whatever it is you are admiring about the windows. I love this project, so I'm not being sarcastic. I just want to learn what it is about windows I should be appreciating. I was kinda feeling like the white pieces in the windows kinda detract from the historic look of the rest of the facade. Like if they were dark wood I think it would look better.




*Hey Darryl, how are you doing? You are right and much better!*
*What you are describing is subject to scientific research and is well known around the world. I German it is called "Goldener schnitt" or "sectio aurea" in Latin. What you feel and barley allow yourself to ask here in public, because someone could laugh Darryl is known for thousands of years and used to be subject when learning something with building! Up until WW2 (around) architects and other tradesmen around the subject of "building something" where forced to learn this skill. It is a "feel good" that comes from mother nature. Google it! The English name for it? You guessed it - Golden Cut!*

*About the colors of the sash bars or window bras was a big subject of debates in Germany beginning in the 1830`s . Beginning that year it was possible to manufacture windows this size without. (First castle was castle Babelsberg, check the Potsdam Thread as you know) https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1502334 Anyway, most favorite colors where dark and light brown, dark green, fire red and blue back then. The white is probably from older times, likely baroque times. Showing off, someone could afford cleaners and also in trend with baroque, everything light and airy and happy. Bringing heaven down to earth after the 30 years war and that miserable time in Europe.*


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## Tiaren

The pavement and street furniture surrounding the Palace are becoming more beautiful. 

Before:








https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f7/Neuer_Marstall_001.JPG/1024px-Neuer_Marstall_001.JPG

Now:

















By Mantikor of the Stadtbild Deutschland Forum: https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?thread/6784-berliner-schloss-umfeld-schlossplatz-schlossfreiheit-lustgarten-spreeufer/&postID=317902#post317902


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## MisterDae

Is there any further news or developments in the reconstruction of these two monuments?


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## DiogoBaptista

erbse There are pigeons in Berlin, or another plague of birds around? Is this building prepared for this?

In Portugal pigeons are a plague and they cause a lot of damage and dirt to the buildings, and thats destructive, we usualy have protective hires on the historic buildings like this ones:



This one is way more discreet/invisible:


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## lanadelrey

DiogoBaptista said:


> erbse There are pigeons in Berlin, or another plague of birds around? Is this building prepared for this?
> 
> In Portugal pigeons are a plague and they cause a lot of damage and dirt to the buildings, and thats destructive, we usualy have protective hires on the historic buildings like this ones:


I'm pretty sure there are pigeons in about every single city in europe. My guess is that they're going to leave it like that at first because it's new anyway and then they're gonna add some of those metal spikes at some point as it's done with most modern buildings as well.



MisterDae said:


> Is there any further news or developments in the reconstruction of these two monuments?
> View attachment 13970
> View attachment 13972


i think we'd be just fine if they don't end up building that ugly Unification Monument (or any other) or any other contemporary structure on the sigh of the former Kaiser monument, so i think chances of reconstructions are little to none.


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## Dr.Seltsam

IMG_0335 by Dr. Seltsam, auf Flickr


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## Mr Bricks

Fantastic project! This has probably been asked before but how was this funded?


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## Tiaren

Mr Bricks said:


> Fantastic project! This has probably been asked before but how was this funded?


It has indeed been asked and discussed many times before. 

Total cost is roughly 600 million €. 110 million € are donated by people for the reconstruction of the facades and the dome, 30 million are funded by the city of Berlin, and the big remainder is funded by the German government.


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## Roman_P

Tiaren said:


> Now:


Are there any plans to restore the initial appearance of that building? I mean the pediment, the roof and so on.


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## Tiaren

Roman_P said:


> Are there any plans to restore the initial appearance of that building? I mean the pediment, the roof and so on.


Unfortunately there are no plans whatsoever. The Neue Marstall (New Royal Stables) has been stripped of a lot of ornamentation facing Schlossplatz in GDR times. It seems rather massive and unelegant now compared to it's former more elaborate, buyoant baroque appearance:


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## HelloMoto163

The modern facade on the riverside really hurts my eyes.hno:
I guess they wanted to create some connection to our time today, but that looks cruel. They could have used some smooth contrast.


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## The Eagle

*Hello everyone! 

This is the building called the "Staastsrat" and has interesting secrets. One secret is that people believe it has the original gate of the "Stadtschloss". It has not! The Gate is a re-construction! That is of why the gate was not reused!
This building was original used for something like the senate building in the US. But the difference to the senate was that the chamber in here was for show only with no or very little power. A "fake" democracy basically. Anyhow, the gate was build using mostly new stone and materials. Old stones where reused, making up to 2.5% of the gate. The design was also changed. Royal and Christian symbols where taken out. The idea to rebuild this gate came very late and was based on "fake news" by them Communists. A top communist is supposed to have used the balcony for a known speech. Truth is: The castles staff did not let him into the castle, forcing him on the roof of a truck. The design committee did not like the sentimental idea of placing a truck here, apparently. True story! Real life is sometimes better than Hollywood. lol 
The real importance came 1998. Schroeder, Chancellor of Germany used this as his office until 2002. The build became Germanys "white house". His new office was not quite finished at that time. The government had to move from Bonn to Berlin at that time. That took a little while. Today, it is used by an international management school. The inside is much nicer. The building is protected
The paving is moving:*



























*We move our location. Recent ideas of improvement have been turned down;*









*This survives WW3;*








Pictures from Snork! Thank you very much!


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## Sir Moc

*Berliner City Palace in 4K*

I made a second 4K video about the construction progress. Fusajiro thx for your impressive photos.


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## MedC

God almighty this riverfront looks like an overgrown tumor. What a waste.


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## maxx989

> It does. There’s a BBC rent calculator that shows you how much of the country you can afford to rent in and Leeds comes out pretty well. Outside the city centre I think Leeds is surprisingly cheap to rent. Even in affluent areas you can occasionally find 1-bed flats to rent for under £500pcm.
> 
> I’m sure you can get better value for your money in Bradford or Wakefield or countless other places but Leeds, in the grand scheme of things, really is not an expensive city.


Yeah, I agree on your point. Nowadays, when smart phones are really smart, but as well as annoying, sometimes you simply need to concentrate on your work in calculating some numbers with some good old calculator (like this one Texas Instruments: https://bestcalculators.net/ti89-vs-ti-nspire/), that can resolve all kind of functions and geometrical things, and therefore make your project be done in short terms.


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## MisterDae

*BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) - &quot;Humboldt-Forum&quot; | U/C*

The live cam feed is down and has not updated since the 22nd. Can anyone else corroborate this issue?
Also, work on finishing the bottom row of windows on each face of the building is taking a worryingly long time, as is finishing the dome, which is only half-cladded. 
Does anyone have information on the project timeline for this summer, and all that will be accomplished in this period?


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## Larrymuffin

Hello indeed the Web Cam is frozen at 22 June. I sent an email today to the site to ask about it. [email protected] The same thing happened a few months ago in the inner courtyard as they were dismantling the scaffoldings. Hopefully this does not mean they are stopping webcam live transmission.


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## goschio

MedC said:


> God almighty this riverfront looks like an overgrown tumor. What a waste.


Yes, it turned out much worse than expected.


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## MedC

goschio said:


> Yes, it turned out much worse than expected.


I don't have the courage to browse 130 pages to find out, is there a reasoning behind the placement of this hideous block? I mean, it feels like a deliberate attempt to break up the building so.. there must be a reason, right?


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## MisterDae

The people behind the project felt a modern facade was necessary, hence this face by Franco Stella. The original palace had an eclectic side where this new one now sits- it wasn’t like the other sides and was instead comprised of a range of smaller buildings which they chose not to reconstruct. My choice would have been to make this side the same as the others even if that wasn’t historically accurate, but of course they went for what most people go for nowadays and decided a huge tumour was more appropriate.


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## MedC

^^ This tumor isn't historically accurate either yet it is here. Just like the new roof of the reichtag this is an insult to the original building. When will architects understand that function alone always result in a catastrophe?


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Completion Date???*

I was under the impression that they wanted to finish construction on the Humboldt Forum by German Unification Day 2019. At the glacial pace that they are progressing, it's hard to see how that's going to happen in the next 90 days. They couldn't be progressing any slower if they tried.


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## Tiaren

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> I was under the impression that they wanted to finish construction on the Humboldt Forum by German Unification Day 2019. At the glacial pace that they are progressing, it's hard to see how that's going to happen in the next 90 days. They couldn't be progressing any slower if they tried.


Neither the City Palace nor the Humboldt-Forum have any relation to German Reunification, it was the 250th birthday of Alexander von Humboldt on September 14th 2019 that was supposed to be the opening day. There have been recent reports that they won't be able to make that date though. They've pushed back the opening to 2020.


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## Darryl

MedC said:


> ^^ This tumor isn't historically accurate either yet it is here. Just like the new roof of the reichtag this is an insult to the original building. When will architects understand that function alone always result in a catastrophe?


I somewhat disagree with this. Of course it's all a matter of taste I suppose, but I find the glass dome on the Reichstag and the glass pyramid at the Louvre examples of the mixing of contemporary and historical done right. Both in my opinion are done well and are not for function alone. In fact, both the dome and the pyramid don't have much function really. They are more done to impress visually and I think they succeeded. 

Where I do agree with you is that this side of the palace was not done well. It's ugly and is very awkwardly attached to the rest of the palace. I think it would have been better to have a GLASS separation between the two. That really would have helped. If there was glass in the recess between the baroque facade and the contemporary facade, it would have transitioned better visually from one to the next. 

Looking at that beautiful heavily decorated round baroque corner with a blank stone wall directly attached to it just kills me. Blech! It's done a little better on the other (north) side because there is some glass in that recess between the two facades, but I still think it would have been better to have the entire recess be 100% glass. It would give a needed visual separation between the two completely different styles.


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## Suburbanist

Mr Bricks said:


> Suburbanist said:
> 
> 
> 
> that is not a clean break with highly problematic historic figures, where as a modern, no-pre-war referenced monument commemorating the reunification of the German State is more appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing like a bit of rewriting of history. Why would the Kaiser be any more controversial than queen Victoria or Churchill?
Click to expand...

 this is not a topic for 1848-1945 history discussions so I will stop my argument here.


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## Suburbanist

When will the Museiminsel U5 station open?


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## Darryl

Suburbanist said:


> When will the Museiminsel U5 station open?


Well they say 2020, but this is Berlin. 

With Berlin I've come to expect to add at least a year or two to any announced opening, sometimes much more.

https://www.projekt-u5.de/en/museumsinsel/


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## The Eagle

Thank you, Mantikor! APH Forum


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## Larrymuffin

What is confusing about all these images of the Palace is that in some you see the statues on the roof and in others there is none. Which is it, will there be statues on the roof around the portals or not?


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## Tiaren

Larrymuffin said:


> What is confusing about all these images of the Palace is that in some you see the statues on the roof and in others there is none. Which is it, will there be statues on the roof around the portals or not?


Some visualisations show an ideal, finished version of the Palace, some show a more realistic 2020 version of the Palace. In 2020 not all statues will be finished. All statues are however planned to return to the roofs and portals, but that will take some time, probably several years. Not only does the sculpting process for one sculpture take several months, but many of the statues and knowledge of their exact look are lost, so historians and artists have to research what they looked like before, which can also take months. Last but not least, one statue costs around 250k €. That's a big sum of money that has to be raised first. Right now they are still collecting donations for the actual palace facades. But they already collected 95 million of 105 million.


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## vankatalaan

Look at the scale of the dome!











https://ibb.co/bb55sYd


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## Tiaren

vankatalaan said:


> Look at the scale of the dome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://ibb.co/bb55sYd


For a secular building the dome is quite impressive indeed. Including the lantern it is 70 meters tall. It will be once again a dominant sight from a lot of places in central Berlin.
Another interesting fact, the dome is not circular, but oval. That makes its construction and cladding even more complicated.


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## Tiaren

The City Palace within its urban context:


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## Darryl

Why does the Russian embassy have to fly their flag way up higher than all the others? lol


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## Tiaren

None of the other embassies feature a tower like it does:










It is the by far most imposing embassy in Berlin. It's like a palace. The interior is very palatial as well.


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## Tiaren

Mantikor of the Stadtbild Deutschland Forum took some great photos of the City Palace and the boulevard Unter den Linden leading to it (https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?thread/2597-berliner-schloss-humboldt-forum/&postID=320588#post320588):


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## Tiaren

Mantikor of Stadtbild Deutschland took more photos of the work in progress dome (https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?thread/2597-berliner-schloss-humboldt-forum/&postID=320979#post320979):


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## vankatalaan

Tiaren said:


> Mantikor of Stadtbild Deutschland took more photos of the work in progress dome (https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org/forum/index.php?thread/2597-berliner-schloss-humboldt-forum/&postID=320979#post320979):


I was wondering about the constructive technique. There's a metal frame, with a cover forming the shape of the dome, on top they're adding a structure made of... wood? and to that the metal plates will be attached to?


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## Tiaren

Details of the dome being clad first in wood then in copper:























































The bible quote of golden letters on a vibrant blue ground surrounding the base of the dome:










Image source: https://www.otz.de/wirtschaft/thueringer-firma-baut-die-kuppel-vom-berliner-stadtschloss-id226790425.html


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## DiogoBaptista

*Humboldt Forum opening postponed to 2020.*






























> SOURCE: https://www.bild.de/regional/berlin...s-eroeffnung-2019-geplatzt-62582144.bild.html


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## odinsrache

The realness of this project kicks ass of every chinese skyscraperthing.


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## Darryl

They sure are taking their time on that dome.


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## Architecture lover

odinsrache said:


> The realness of this project kicks ass of every chinese skyscraperthing.


This idea...that in order for you to elevate a certain style, or a building, you need to constantly put down other buildings, cities, or styles is somehow vain and shallow, partly, one can sense a breeze of bitterness in such statement too. 

So. The question is:

If one is content with what he/she has...why would he/she still have this constant urge to downgrade buildings so far away from the European continent?
Like okay, we understand a 127 floors tower, with a 90 degree twist is probably never gonna happen here, and it's true, most Europeans would like it for our continent to stay that way, so again, why this constant urge to mind the business of people we have not a single link to architecturally?


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## DiogoBaptista

I agree, it was disrespectful and immature, this is not a building battle.


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## Sauter

Is any of the interiors going to be reconstructed?


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## RegentHouse

DiogoBaptista said:


> I agree, it was disrespectful and immature, this is not a building battle.


He's comparing multi-use skyscrapers to a museum and reconstruction. It's not even apples to oranges.


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## JohnDee

They should do something like this in NYC with Penn Station. That was a crime.


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## Death NoVa

JohnDee said:


> They should do something like this in NYC with Penn Station. That was a crime.


weren't there talks about reconstructing it recently?


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## Dr.Seltsam

New photo update by dubaibobby:



dubaibobby said:


> Impressionen vom Wochenende
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> meine


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## Grimace

Amazing and absolutely marvellous looking building.

I wouldn't worry about modernist facade it will probably be replaced by the new generation.


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## Architecture lover

Replaced with what? What was originally there looked rather messy compared to the rest of the palace, I actually think they went with the best possible solution when they've decided to go with minimalism, it allows the palace to be what it's meant to be without trying to outshine her in any way.

The whole building looks like massive quality, even the minimalist part - the Humboldt Forum inscription looks like a subtle decoration on it.

I would've liked for the minimalist part to be covered with sandstone similar to the palace, for instance this building:

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=152784718&postcount=3

uses that kind of sandstone and interacts greatly with what seems to be a very Spanish historic surrounding. The Latin (Times New Roman) inscriptions and numerals in the simplistic stone are everything.


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## RegentHouse

Death NoVa said:


> weren't there talks about reconstructing it recently?


Visions, yes. But the closest has been rehabiltating the adjacent post office by the same architect as an extention, and not reneweing MSG's lease with long-term prospects that it will remain in the near future.



Architecture lover said:


> Replaced with what? What was originally there looked rather messy compared to the rest of the palace, I actually think they went with the best possible solution when they've decided to go with minimalism, it allows the palace to be what it's meant to be without trying to outshine her in any way.


My concern, which is frankly humorous, is the surviving original portion of the palace exists intact, moved by the communists steps away.

The oldest portions not being reconstructed included a church, so you can see how in today's policitically correct Eurabia why it wasn't, especially as it relates to the debate over reconstruction even in its current form.


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## Grimace

Replaced with what, you may ask?

Anybody can see that one quarter of the building is a completely different style than the rest of it. That is obvious to even your average Joe Blogs. Let's see which part of the building will be photographed most which will rest my argument. I am willing to bet 99% of people will be taking photos of the reconstructed parts and not of the modernist generic side. And that is the entire point to a facade, not only to keep the roof from falling in.

Taking that into account, I'm betting future generations will remove the ugly Spree side and replace it with something decent. Something that aesthetically fits in the context. Something that is worthwhile looking from the a boat on the river.

I'm very grateful they reconstructed the palace and I'm willing to accept the modernist facade but only because I have faith it will be replaced eventually.


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## Architecture lover

What people fail to understand is that - originally that side was never a part of the 'Baroque' Schloss, it looked like a separate pile of buildings which were all built separably in different epochs (wasn't that the case?).
Yes they might've go with reconstructing that side intact as it was (I wouldn't mind that at all), but truth is, it was never in context with the actual palace.

@RegentHouse You even dare say, they didn't rebuild it because of the church? Apparently churches are now forbidden? Do you even read yourself? Isn't there gonna be a golden cross towering the dome? You're ridiculous with such statements.
Have no idea where you're from but people in Europe went thru centuries of trying to distance themselves from that vile institution called the church. 
Trust me, we've had our reasons. Yet I don't mind that cross that's going to be placed on top of it all. Couldn't care less.









Source









Source


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## RegentHouse

Architecture lover said:


> @RegentHouse You even dare say, they didn't rebuild it because of the church? Apparently churches are now forbidden? Do you even read yourself? Isn't there gonna be a golden cross towering the dome? You're ridiculous with such statements.
> Have no idea where you're from but people in Europe went thru centuries of trying to distance themselves from that vile institution called the church.
> Trust me, we've had our reasons. Yet I don't mind that cross that's going to be placed on top of it all. Couldn't care less.


I believe you answered your own questions calling an insitutution which has been the backbone of Western society as "vile." Couldn't care less.


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## Tiaren

RegentHouse said:


> The oldest portions not being reconstructed included a church, so you can see how in today's policitically correct Eurabia why it wasn't, especially as it relates to the debate over reconstruction even in its current form.


Your narrative has one tiny flaw, why does "politically correct Eurabia" reconstruct the dome with a huge, golden Christian cross carried by angels?










And why is there a Bible quote in giant golden letters on bright blue background running around the dome?









Image source by Fusajiro: https://baukultur-forum.bz/forum/index.php?thread/8255-berliner-schloss-humboldt-forum/&postID=313896#post313896


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## MisterDae

Reconstructing an eclectic mix of random add ons would have been pointless. They were later additions and therefore not relevant to the constitution of the original building. I would have favoured leaving that facade missing and having an open courtyard facing the river. Or just continuing the baroque facade around to the river side.


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## Darryl

Leaving it open would have created such a cool riverfront space. :bash:


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## Architecture lover

RegentHouse said:


> I believe you answered your own questions calling an insitutution which has been the backbone of Western society as "vile."


Backbone of Western society? Now I've read everything.

Wasn't this the same institution that in the middle ages introduced Europeans to raging wars in the middle east with people we have not a single link to? 
Wasn't this the same institution that prosecuted our greatest intellectuals, such like Leonardo da Vinci (IQ of 220, not ever repeated in human history)? Who on the other side demanded education and medical research in order to improve the quality of human life? Who made the postulates of Art, even though at his time he only had color produced from grass and dirt.

Have no idea where you're from, but in Europe we've had our Renaissance for a reason. That's the period of European history where the civilization starts. That's where we got our Universities from. That's our actual backbone.

Not a fictional tale where the woman is created from a man's ribs. While in actuality, we all know we grow in a woman's belly for 9 months, taking oxygen and food suply from her own blood, in order to become human.

Enough of your boresome (yawn) offtopic, like literally you haven't mentioned a single sustainable argument considering the Baroque Palace. 



MisterDae said:


> Reconstructing an eclectic mix of random add ons would have been pointless. They were later additions and therefore not relevant to the constitution of the original building. I would have favoured leaving that facade missing and having an open courtyard facing the river. Or just continuing the baroque facade around to the river side.


If the palace was open with the courtyard to the river - I agree, it would've been great, it would've looked so approachable and open to people who would've been relaxing at the riverfront during Berlin's summers.

Anyways - a continuation of the Baroque facade would've disrupted the genuinely original building, resulting with more of an imitation.


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## Mr Bricks

Architecture lover said:


> Have no idea where you're from, but in Europe we've had our Renaissance for a reason. That's the period of European history where the civilization starts. That's where we got our Universities from. That's our actual backbone.


This isn't even remotely true.


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## RegentHouse

Tiaren said:


> Your narrative has one tiny flaw, why does "politically correct Eurabia" reconstruct the dome with a huge, golden Christian cross carried by angels?
> 
> ...
> 
> And why is there a Bible quote in giant golden letters on bright blue background running around the dome?


Please, my atheist friend says Jesus Christ in vain more than any support your counter-argument provides. But you know, great progress actually reconstructing the dome this time rather than an upside down glass bowl.



Architecture lover said:


> Wasn't this the same institution that in the middle ages introduced Europeans to raging wars in the middle east with people we have not a single link to?


Right, those unprovoked Mohammedans totally didn't take over most of Asia Minor, North Africa, and Iberia. :nuts:


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## JorgeORandall

They should do the same with the Mexican Capitol in Mexico City, it was a crime. One of the most Beautiful palaces of Mexico. 😭😭


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## Titan Man

^^
The difference is that the Mexican Capitol was never finished, only the central dome, and it now serves as an arch. But I would love to see it finished one day, the design was beautiful.


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## venia

RegentHouse said:


> Right, those unprovoked Mohammedans totally didn't take over most of Asia Minor, North Africa, and Iberia. :nuts:


They were stopped by the Spanish in Vienna, actually. For more than 150 years Hungary was part of the Turkish Empire. The birthplace of the Western civilization was Athens, which remainded turkish for 500 years. People ignore such things... hno: 
Anyways, I'm happy for the cross just because the kuppel was designed with it, and the overall shape makes more sense in an architectural way with it. But if it were a star or anything else, I guess noone would notice the difference :dunno: The same for the church in the back (I had no idea there was one), really, noone cares. I don't believe someone would think "let's not do it for political correctness". In fact, most berliners find the german flag way more shocking than the cross :lol:


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## aclifford

MisterDae said:


> Reconstructing an eclectic mix of random add ons would have been pointless. They were later additions and therefore not relevant to the constitution of the original building. I would have favoured leaving that facade missing and having an open courtyard facing the river. Or just continuing the baroque facade around to the river side.


Were the buildings facing the spree not the original origins of the palace?

I always assumed they were and the rest of the palace was added on gradually over the years. This made those buildings facinating to me from both a historical and architectural perspective and incredibly important in the story of the palace.

If they were added later then having nothing there and instead having the courtyard open to the river is a fantastic idea -would look stunning.


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## Titan Man

No, the buildings along the Spree were built before the Baroque facades. I mean, who would enlarge a Baroque palace by randomly throwing Renaissance and Gothic parts around it?


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## TM_Germany

^^ that's what he said


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## Titan Man

TM_Germany said:


> ^^ that's what he said


Yep, sorry for basically repeating what he said, I read his post quickly and it sounded in that moment like he was 50-50 on the matter, so I wrote a quick correction of the other user's post... :lol:


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## Architecture lover

venia said:


> The birthplace of the Western civilization was Athens, which remainded turkish for 500 years. People ignore such things... hno:


But why would you even take the conversation in such direction? If you're so much into the fall of Constantinople first educate yourself on the topics: Massacre of the Latins (April 1182), and afterwards the 4th Crusade (or basically what the Latins did to the Greeks years later in April 1204, to avenge the previous event). 

It was an Orthodox versus Catholic war that ended Constantinople - not the Turks, when the Turks came what they found was an already ruined city.

So don't even think of having the "us - innocent, them - awful" conversation with me. I've lived and seen far more than that. They may not be innocent at all, but we might be just as awful as them, we just try to hide ourselves behind our hypocrisy.


Now please back to the Baroque Palace.


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## Darryl

What is that light projection onto the ugly east side in the webcam about?


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## germantower

I recently had the chance to talk to a person directly involved in the reconstruction of the Stadtschloss. So i took the chance and asked him about the reasons for the horrible Chipperfield side. He gave me a very honest answer. First reason was according to him money, and the second a possible fight over what version of the former Spree side should had been rebuild to begin with. That is directly connected with the financial reason, because the Spree side was insanely rich in facade decorations. I hope I got my point across.


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## tallmark

Titan Man said:


> No, the buildings along the Spree were built before the Baroque facades. I mean, who would enlarge a Baroque palace by randomly throwing Renaissance and Gothic parts around it?


Actually, the oldest surviving building in the complex was the Apothecary, attached to the northeast corner of the building. No reconstruction of that one has been attempted.


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## tallmark

Grimace said:


> Replaced with what, you may ask?
> 
> Anybody can see that one quarter of the building is a completely different style than the rest of it. That is obvious to even your average Joe Blogs. Let's see which part of the building will be photographed most which will rest my argument. I am willing to bet 99% of people will be taking photos of the reconstructed parts and not of the modernist generic side. And that is the entire point to a facade, not only to keep the roof from falling in.
> 
> Taking that into account, I'm betting future generations will remove the ugly Spree side and replace it with something decent. Something that aesthetically fits in the context. Something that is worthwhile looking from the a boat on the river.
> 
> I'm very grateful they reconstructed the palace and I'm willing to accept the modernist facade but only because I have faith it will be replaced eventually.


And the interior too. The "ugly facade" is also found in the separating walls between courtyards. AND none of the rooms and halls are being reconstructed, although we have excellent color photos of them all. We should have prayed for a Russian/Soviet company to rebuild it--as they did Catherine's Hermitage and the Peterhof in Saint Petersburg: they reconsdtruced everything according to the photos. The palace had been entirely gutted by fire and bombardment, with only a few exterior walls standing.

By the way, without the modernist eastern facade, and a "Humboldt Forum" homage to Eurabia, this building would have never been reconstructed. Too many closeted leftist there in Berlin, combined with the postmodernist Dada folks to allow that. So, you give in on some, you get back some


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## tallmark

DiogoBaptista said:


> *Humboldt Forum opening postponed to 2020.*


Uh, what a nice Holiday Inn looks for the interior of a historical building. Any vending machines around to complete the picture?hno:


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## tallmark

taboe said:


> ^^ Couldn't disagree more!
> 
> It looks like it was made out of cardboard or plastic.
> 
> It's very incomprehensible that Berlin, of all places, is opting for such a Disney-approach: faking old buildings without adding anything of architectural value.
> 
> It's an absolute disgrace that they tore down the Palace of the Republic to replace it with this monstrosity. What's next? Tearing down the TV-tower? hno:
> 
> Berlin is very rapidly becoming just another European capital, instead of the unique one it used to be (and still is, partly). It makes my heart bleed.


Wow, what a collection of old Communist sympathizers (giving this their thumbs up).... Missing the "Palace of the Republic"? Really, comrades?? The socialist likes the whole world destroyed and memories wiped, so that they can recreate it in their own image of "socialist realism". Sorry pals, your time ran out in 1991. deal with it


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## vankatalaan

I was in Berlin for the last few days and all I could think of is how much better it would look if we could revert all the communist buildings and go back to the imperial magnificence it had before. I would forgive Alexanderplatz as a symbol, but so many buildings have disappeared.

Seeing the Schloss in person, I don't get why people hate its design so much. The modern facade blends perfectly with the environment on the opposite side of the Spree. 

And the baroque facade completes a gap and heals a wound in the historical side of the city. I like the project more now that I've seen it in person than before -and I was always a big supporter.


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## Yellow Fever

Back to topic and stop all the communists shits comments, thanks.


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## Tiaren

germantower said:


> I recently had the chance to talk to a person directly involved in the reconstruction of the Stadtschloss. So i took the chance and asked him about the reasons for the horrible Chipperfield side. He gave me a very honest answer. First reason was according to him money, and the second a possible fight over what version of the former Spree side should had been rebuild to begin with. That is directly connected with the financial reason, because the Spree side was insanely rich in facade decorations. I hope I got my point across.


The person you talked to probably answered you to the best of their knowledge, but I hope it's alright when I correct a few things.

1) The old eastern facade, mostly consisting of renaissance buildings, was never richly decorated, in fact, it was rather simple and austere. It was however very asymmetric and compartmentalized.










2) The reason why this facade was not reconstructed was not because of money, but because it were only the three baroque facades of Andreas Schlüter and Eosander von Göthe that were deemed historically and artistically important, and important to the surrounding cityscape and buildings (Cathedral, Neuer Marstall, Bauakademie, Altes Museum, Zeughaus...), which were back then built to directly correspond with those three baroque facades.
Wilhelm von Boddien, which was the initiator of the whole reconstruction project, successfully argued that the baroque cubature and facade composition were absolutely necessary to restore the historical heart of Berlin. He would have also lliked to reconstruct the renaissance facade, but modernists were not convinced a reconstruction was necessary is this case. Simply because there was no corresponding buildings beyond the Spree river anymore, only the Marx-Engels-Forum, a park from GDR times. So they demanded the 4th facade to be modernist.

3) They decided on this particular facade design, because that design was part of the entire design for the City Palace/Humboldt Forum with which Franco Stella won the international architecture competition.
Stella, who will not agree with you that his facade design is "horrible", simply likes very monumental, very austere and inspired by 30s and 40s architecture like Rome's EUR:










Can you see the close relation?


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## Ioannes_

^^


I was surprised that the Italian architect's explanation was simply: "on this side, there will be *bars and restaurants* and terraces for the enjoyment of the citizen." I personally don't dislike it because before, there were a series of buildings with no uniformity attached. If I had made a historical nod to the *Palace of the Soviet Republic*, in the form of *yellow* crystals ... etc.


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## Roman_P

Architecture lover said:


> Wasn't this the same institution that prosecuted our greatest intellectuals, such like Leonardo da Vinci (IQ of 220, not ever repeated in human history)?


Sorry, what did you mean by prosecution? Commissioning some of his best paintings (like _The Last Supper_ in Milan)?


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## Darryl

tallmark said:


> Uh, what a nice Holiday Inn looks for the interior of a historical building. Any vending machines around to complete the picture?hno:


:lol:

That totally does look like a Holiday Inn. I've actually seen Holiday Inns that look nicer.


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## tallmark

Sauter said:


> Is any of the interiors going to be reconstructed?


Nonehno:


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## tallmark

venia said:


> They were stopped by the Spanish in Vienna, actually. For more than 150 years Hungary was part of the Turkish Empire. The birthplace of the Western civilization was Athens, which remainded turkish for 500 years. People ignore such things... hno:
> Anyways, I'm happy for the cross just because the kuppel was designed with it, and the overall shape makes more sense in an architectural way with it. But if it were a star or anything else, I guess noone would notice the difference :dunno: The same for the church in the back (I had no idea there was one), really, noone cares. I don't believe someone would think "let's not do it for political correctness". In fact, most berliners find the german flag way more shocking than the cross :lol:


ARCHITECTURE, architecture---PLEASE. A tiny bit of politics here or there is okay, but please don't turn this forum into some shouting match between the politically charged opinions. LETS DO ARCHITECTURE and urban/building debate


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## Darryl

tallmark said:


> Uh, what a nice Holiday Inn looks for the interior of a historical building. Any vending machines around to complete the picture?hno:


What's extra sad about this is that forget that it's in a baroque palace, forget about anything historical. Say this whole project inside and out was purely modern. Even then, would you want the interior of a major new museum in the center of a world capital city to look similar to a Holiday Inn??


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## DiogoBaptista

> SOURCE: https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.o...schloss-aktuelles-und-baugeschehen/&pageNo=19​


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## tallmark

Pamparam said:


> Even a Holidey Inn must look cooler in such a prime place, but it is not finished yet and this pic shows only a detail, which is probably misleading.


Apparently not. Here is the "finished" product: a cheap Holiday Inn production. You can put a lipstick on a pig, but it will still be a pig



DiogoBaptista said:


>


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## Ioannes_

keepthepast said:


> What's boring are overtly simplified and somewhat uninformed comments about history that have little or no relation to actual historical fact or current goals and agendas. Your emotional position is your choice and I respect that, but framing the devotion to historicism in art and architecture as boring is obviously just a personal whim given that scores of interested, and interesting, people have been discussing this issue with sincerity for many years, and will continue to do so.



Years ago when this debate, I WAS NOT. Your opinion is as cheerful or boring as mine. My answer is to a recent comment. I am a technical architect in Spain and our company has carried out the historical rehabilitation of historic buildings, even more in Andalusia, the birthplace of Baroque in my country. If you are bored by a *debate that will last until you place the last photo of the titanium plate of the dome*, it is your problem.


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## Mr Bricks

Tiaren said:


> As I mentioned, it's some kind of miracle that this happens in Berlin. Especially Berliners have probably the least civic pride in all of Germany. Most of the donations for the City Palace come from outside of Berlin and Berlin itself only contributes the absolute minimum. The parts of the City Palace and surroundings that Berlin is responsible for we already know will be delayed to 2020 and even past that.


Oh I thought this was a wholly Berlin-funded project, that's interesting. What about the other reconstruction projects in the city?


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## keepthepast

Mr Bricks said:


> Oh I thought this was a wholly Berlin-funded project, that's interesting. What about the other reconstruction projects in the city?


As I understand it, the footprint of the reconstructed Stadtschloss-Humboldt Forum is federal property. The federal government was in control of the rebuilding project, with much support from various entities and populations, but not the city government. In fact, the city generally feels they were ignored. The areas around the palace are city owned and controlled, and parenthetically, as a pseudo middle-finger reaction to what has been done with the Forum against city wishes, the city will never allow things like the Neptune fountain to be replaced into its original location in the SchlossPlatz or the rebuilding of the Kaiser Wilhelm I memorial, for example. Tit for tat, it seems.


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## Tiaren

Mr Bricks said:


> Oh I thought this was a wholly Berlin-funded project, that's interesting. What about the other reconstruction projects in the city?



Oh, no, as Keepthepast explained, Berlin took part only in a small capacity. Of the about 600 million € this entire project cost Berlin contributed around 30 million.
The City Palace/Humboldt Forum is basically a huge present to Berlin from the government and the German people that Berlin didn't really want and only reluctantly accepted.


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## Mr Bricks

Very intersting. What have the reactions been in Berlin? Is the Palace seen as some kind of notorious Preussian monument?


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## The Eagle

Mr Bricks said:


> Very intersting. What have the reactions been in Berlin? Is the Palace seen as some kind of notorious Preussian monument?




*To my knowledge, Berlin city is not against the project and Prussia is seen positive. The fact was that Berlin had some years ago a very, very low cash flow. *

*The federal level or called "Bund", owns the island of museums, or museum island. The collection there was never completed. After the idea for a new building hatched, people came forward with the idea to put a build right next to the museum island. The next idea was to use the traditional façade. The façade would be paid for by donation. The BUND liked the idea and it took off. *

*The modern façade was a "meeting in the middle"*

*The inside can be rebuild if the usage allows it. The building has different users inside. However, the donation of the sate of Baden-Wuertenberg to rebuild a big hall inside was declined. I forgot what hall that was. I think the reason to decline was that the hall was in use for a different purpose. But the donation could go to a different hall inside now.*

*About Berlin: To be fair, I think that the state/province of Berlin gave some money? Yes/No*


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## The Eagle

*Thank you DiogoBaptista for those perfect pictures! 

I am finally back from my vacation and like to show some cool indoor pictures everyone needs to see! 
This massive project is seeing lots of finishing touches on the inside!
The following pictures have been made around the 14th, 15th September. That was the 250th birthday of Alexander Humboldt. 
The place is named after the multi-talented Humboldt brothers. We will see that Portal II is not finished just jet. 
We will also discover that the inside benefits from the façade reconstruction, too. 

So, lets get started. Portal III, lightshow, 14th of September:*


















*The exterior façade wraps around inside;*






















































*This is the inside of Portal II;*


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## The Eagle

*I hope, the pictures are not to big! I was told it is better this way. More to see, so to speak; lol*

















































































Thank you! Pictures are from APH user Spreetunnel! Thank you!


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## Darryl

Flood lighting that part with purple light doesn't make it any less of a "Holiday Inn". Like someone said before, lipstick on a pig.


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## Tiaren

The Eagle said:


> *To my knowledge, Berlin city is not against the project and Prussia is seen positive. The fact was that Berlin had some years ago a very, very low cash flow. *
> 
> *About Berlin: To be fair, I think that the state/province of Berlin gave some money? Yes/No*


Berlin for many years now is ruled by a red, red, green coalition. These leftist parties, especially the party literally called "The Left", harbours disdain for Prussia and Prussian heritage. They are in general against every historic reconstruction and they for example also recently blocked the reconstruction of the historic colonnades in front of the Palace, where now the hideos Unity Memorial is being build, even though the government granted money for the reconstruction. The government also granted money for the relocation of Neptune Fountain and the Horse Tamers statues to the Palace, but these parties block that as well. They rather not take millions that are granted to them, just because they don't want the Palace or the Palace surroundings to return.

As I already mentioned, Berlin contributes of the over 600 million, that the entire project costs, just 30 million. Government and donators all pay significantly more. Inside the Palace Berlin even got an entire floor for itself, which it frankly doesn't seem to be too keen to even use. They want to use it for some provincial Berlin exhibition, and even that is going to be delayed.

While the government and the people have donated and contributed so much to the City Palace over the years, Berlin has been always very reluctant or outright opposed to it.


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## Mr Bricks

^^ Well maybe the tune will change once this reconstruction becomes a great success.

Is there anywhere I could read more about the politics regarding the palace and its construction etc?


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## MisterDae

So annoying politics is hampering reconstruction efforts. Is it really going to do any harm to build a fountain and some columns?


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## Tiaren

Mr Bricks said:


> ^^ Well maybe the tune will change once this reconstruction becomes a great success.
> 
> Is there anywhere I could read more about the politics regarding the palace and its construction etc?


I'm certain the City Palace/Humboldt Forum will be a great success. The beautiful architecture as well as the fantastic art collections will draw millions of people to it each year. Early projections are about 3 million a year.
There wasn't a single instance so far in which a reconstruction project was not successful afterwards. Dresden, Potsdam, Frankfurt, all great successes even though the left leaning parties were opposed to it. And they still always are when a new reconstruction project is conceived. They never learn.
Most recently the SPD mayor of Frankfurt had to admit Frankfurt's reconstructed Altstadt was a success and that he now even is a fan of it, even though he actually opposed the project at the beginning. Now he is reaping the benefits of other people's efforts.

About reading up on the politics:
In English there is only the Wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Palace

It is unfortunately not very extensive or in-depth though.


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## The Eagle

*Thank you guys! 

Let us enjoy smaller pictures from the same event. Also in bright daylight!
This picture was taken from the "Marstall" building for the horses looking to the Schloss. The portal in the picture is Portal No1;*









*The same portal;*









*The construction equipment is slowly disappearing. That enables new and fantastic new views! *









*Here we see a window for the basement. Location is the western side, the second axis coming from south. It will illuminate the so called "museum of this place" where we learn history of this location;*









*Portal III, going thru the middle;*









*Inside on the left this door:*









*Looking south;*









*Looking north;*


















*And the court;*








Pictures from APH member Mantikor! Thank you for them!


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## Joe Whalen 7

*Schluterhof Views*

Is there any chance of getting a few photos of the Schluterhof area now that they must have finished placing the remaining statues above the decorative columns? I would be interested in seeing how it turned out.


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## The Eagle

*I have no pictures from the "Schlueterhof", The "Schlueterhof" was closed for the public when the pictures where taken. If I am not mistaken, that "Hof/court" is used for the contractors right now. It will open soon.

Anyhow, we are just beginning:*









*Apparently, the world`s most expansive hotel lobby!*































































*We go to the second court, the so called "Kleiner Schlosshof"*








Thank you Mantikor for them pictures!


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## The Eagle

*Let`s have a second and "smaller" look then before at the construction of portal II. *



















*At the distance the inside of portal IV*









*Event spaces to rent on both sides. This little court will be for the suppliers;*



























*We turn around and see portal II from the inside;*









*refines delicate baroque; *









*To unarm critics, with real life damaged parts from the original castle. 
Fun fact: Some parts where waiting decades in an forest. All overgrown by the bush;*








Pictures from Matikor, thank you!


----------



## delores

I still don't think the marriage of the modern structure to the new restored palace feels comfortable. It's as if a communist structure was melded to building because it was bomb damaged.


----------



## DiogoBaptista

> SOURCE: https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.o...ktuelles-und-baugeschehen/&pageNo=20&b5e4500b​


----------



## MisterDae

Are they stopping exterior works over winter? Everything seems to have ground to a halt.


----------



## cameronpaul

Ioannes_ said:


> The dome of the Reichstag is an icon of Berlin. They could have learned from Norman Foster, at least, to take advantage of the dome of the new Stadtschloss. But not the exterior, but the interior that is a false ceiling and *the space occupied by the old chapel is a small room more* than the museum when it could be the main one.


It’s only an icon because it’s a gimmick. Totally out of place with no reference to the main structure and looks effete. hno:


----------



## keepthepast

cameronpaul said:


> It’s only an icon *because it’s a gimmick. * Totally out of place with no reference to the main structure and looks effete. hno:


Well said. Typical of Foster and Libeskind...and others.


----------



## DiogoBaptista

> SOURCE: https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.o...ktuelles-und-baugeschehen/&pageNo=20&b5e4500b​


----------



## keepthepast

Nice update. 
If only those horrific commie block houses along Leipziger Strasse were not such a blight on the cityscape and the the unfortunate backdrop from this view.


----------



## robertwood

keepthepast said:


> Nice update.
> If only those horrific commie block houses along Leipziger Strasse were not such a blight on the cityscape and the the unfortunate backdrop from this view.


I thought the EXACT same thing!


----------



## Notgnirracen

_Just uploaded on Humboldt Forum's Facebook page ... _









​


----------



## DiogoBaptista

> SOURCE: https://www.stadtbild-deutschland.o...schloss-aktuelles-und-baugeschehen/&pageNo=21​


----------



## Darryl

DiogoBaptista said:


> ​


Much better background then when looking southward from the north. ;-)


----------



## Heinrich Harrer

30th Anniversary of the Fall of the Berlin Wall :banana:

































own work


----------



## MisterDae

From what I’ve seen on the webcam, several things are happening:
. The south facade’s remaining unfinished section (bottom left row of windows) is being finished soon- the scaffolding has been put back up so this work can be carried out, and I’ve seen several men working on them. 
. The dome is receiving copper oculi- replacing the temporary wooden ones put in. After this, the section above the oculi will be finished in copper, leaving only the dome’s top left. 
. The the much maligned east facade, by the river, the concrete walls are being finished with stone blocks/ large grey bricks
. Some work around the palace has occurred, such as traditional street lights and block paving


----------



## Mr Bricks

Where could I find some information about the debates (political, ideological, historical etc) regarding the reconstruction of the Palace? In German or English. Cheers.


----------



## Tiaren

New impressions by Mantikor of Stadtbild Deutschland:




























Work is moving forward very slowly, but at least it is moving forward.


----------



## Tiaren




----------



## vankatalaan

What's the status of the statues? I see that the donations are stalling, does that mean that perhaps not all the statues will be ready for the inauguration?


----------



## Tiaren

vankatalaan said:


> What's the status of the statues? I see that the donations are stalling, does that mean that perhaps not all the statues will be ready for the inauguration?


Donations are not stalling. The sum of 105 million € in donations for the facade is close to being reached now, over 90% have already been collected.

All statues that were planned to adorn the facades are long in the works and close to being finished. Many are in fact already finished and are just waiting to be placed on their spot. They had to start months if not years ago to work on the statues, because a single statue takes several months, even years to be made.

A very common misconception is that they only were able to work on the Palace depending on how much donations they collected. That is not the case. If that happened the facades wouldn't be half finished at this point. Similar to the statues all other ornaments take months and sometimes years to be made. Imagine they would only now start to work on one of the up to 6 meters tall cartouches:










...they'd be still working on them for the next couple of years.
For that not to happen the Bund (German government) prefinanced the entire 105 million € already many years ago. It is now the job of the Palace foundation to pay the government back, but that isn't taken that seriously anyway, since the governement is regularly donating millions itself. 

The unfortunate delays we notice are caused by skilled worker shortage or unsuitable weather conditions, mostly the former though.


----------



## vankatalaan

Thanks Tiaren, I was under the misconception that sculptures were not part of what the government paid for the facades and those relied completely on the donations.

So we can expect the sculptures to start being installed once all the other decoration -including the dome- is finished?


----------



## naruto-kun

^^
What kind of rock/material is used in the facade? Apologies, I'm not well versed on these structures.


----------



## MisterDae

Sandstone I believe. Also, how much of the surroundings is being built? I noticed on some renders that balustrades and some green planing along the bottom of the windows was present. As well as the fountains. Is any of this happening?


----------



## Tiaren

MisterDae said:


> Sandstone I believe. Also, how much of the surroundings is being built? I noticed on some renders that balustrades and some green planing along the bottom of the windows was present. As well as the fountains. Is any of this happening?


Unfortunately those are mostly older visualizations. Current planning does not include any reconstruction of the surrounding area. No balustrades, no statues, no fountain. That does not mean that they will never come back though. There are a lot of people that want the statues and fountain to return.
There is however some good news:
The surrounding area might not be fully reconstructed, but it will take inspiration by its prewar look. Lamps and pavement for example will be historic in look. What lamps and pavement they already finished looks really traditional and elegant.









by Mantikor of Stadtbild Deutschland Forum


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello everyone!


The re-unification memorial battle is in full swing! Here the contesters!
Unification memorial for the re-unification of 1990:
*









*Unification memorial for the re-unification of 1871:*









*Bonus picture, This is current;*








source: ddparchitekten.info

*The battle as we all remember is about building the re-unification memorial of 1990 at a different location, fitting to the historical places. 

Now, we are seeing the next rounds: The environmental department doesn't approve the 90`s memorial. The bat resettlement is not going well. 
The planning committee is out of time and needs re-approval. 
The Province of Berlin is tired. The need to resend the planning.
The federal level is not approving more money and so on...

The different levels of government are battling a battle in slow motion.

And while the government is all worked up, the architects are in trouble:
They may have stolen the idea from someone else. This is important, because this architect in particular is a not very nice fellow. He is known firing lawsuits at everyone and everything himself. His female partner already quite the job years ago. When someone at the APH forum used his design and produced a picture of it at a more suiting location. This gentlemen's lawyer shot down the APH forum for weeks! The new development does him justice, in my opinion. *


----------



## MisterDae

So does this mean the modern memorial is unlikely to happen? And the original is more likely to be rebuilt?


----------



## The Eagle

*For those of you that are new to this an explanation:

The question is to whether build one or two memorials.
80% of the population, including the federal branch, favors building 
two memorials. The partial re-build of the re-unification memorial of 1871.
Survived WW2 undamaged but torn down for political correctness reasons by communists in later years. This is the original location. 
The second re-unification memorial of 1990 is preferred at more suitable places.

Now, you are going to ask: What is the problem? 
Well, a small group of social democrats decided in a very early stage to put the new memorial on the same spot as the old memorial used to be. It was openly communicated to prevent the re-build of the 1871 memorial! The idea was to prevent the communist losing the face about the decision of demolishing. 

Today, most politicians support the two memorial idea. This was communicated openly, too. The public was asked multiple times in newspapers and websites and support the two memorial idea, too. But the one memorial idea was approved to move forward. The alternative idea of making a 1990`s memorial designed to look like the 1871 memorial did not succeeded. So, we have a "behind the doors" battle going on for years. The memorial was supposed to finish by October 2019! The memorial has not started jet and we don't know when it will be build. The federal government doesn't want the communists to have the last say on this. The Province/State of Berlin is undecided, but forces inside favor the communist approach. 
The battle story reads in part like a legal Thriller movie from Hollywood.
Like the one time when Berlin wanted to start building, but the federal Gov. pointed out the memorial sits on federal land! When Berlin and Germany finally had swapped lands, the time for the project had run out! lol*




*What are the chances? The chances are 50/50. The lawyers are trying to figure out, if the one memorial project moves ahead like decided and voted in favor many years ago before the public noticed the project or if the two memorial decision moves forward as decided upon vote in favor already two times since. The one memorial was in favor first, but the original Politicians pushing the one memorial project are retired now. But this one memorial idea lacks money. The federal level likes to pay more, but only if the federal voting rights are increased! So, Berlin Province does not want to take more money, for giving away voting rights, but lacks money! You could not make this one up! *


----------



## Darryl

I take a quick look at the webcam frequently to check on progress and just today I noticed something that I don't know if it's new or has been there all along. I've been focusing lately primarily on the dome to see the (slow) progress of the copper. Maybe this has been there all along and I just never noticed till now, but there is an ugly concrete building on the roof. It's not the cafe by the dome. It's further down the building toward the middle. Does anyone have info on this? I hope to god it's not visible from the ground because it's ugly as hell. Hopefully it is not close enough to the edge to be seen from the ground even from a far distance.


----------



## redbaron_012

Just wondering why the river facade is modern when they went to so much trouble recreating the original structure ? Sorry this has probably been asked before but I live on the far side of the world and haven't visited this site for a long time...my actual visit to Berlin was back in 2000 when the modernist pink glass office government building stood on this site.


----------



## Mr Bricks

One option would be to make the modern part into a green wall.


----------



## TM_Germany

redbaron_012 said:


> Just wondering why the river facade is modern when they went to so much trouble recreating the original structure ? Sorry this has probably been asked before but I live on the far side of the world and haven't visited this site for a long time...my actual visit to Berlin was back in 2000 when the modernist pink glass office government building stood on this site.


Multiple options were considered about the river facade. Originally, it wasn't baroque like the other ones but instead quite a mess of different syles, shapes and eras. In the end it was decided to build a modern facade instead.


----------



## jerryarkansas

TM_Germany said:


> Multiple options were considered about the river facade. Originally, it wasn't baroque like the other ones but instead quite a mess of different syles, shapes and eras. In the end it was decided to build a modern facade instead.


No matter what had been put there, it wouldn't have been original to the look of the building.


----------



## Steinar37

The ONLY right thing to do is to build a replica of what once stood there, end of discussion.


----------



## vankatalaan

Wow that totalitarianism!


----------



## Tiaren

Trees are being planted in front of the Palace where before the war trees were also growing:



















Source Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/humboldtforumberlin/


----------



## Darryl

Was a new opening/completion date established or announced?? I believe they originally said it would be completed in Sept 2019 I think? From what can be seen exteriorly from the webcam, the progress moves VERY slowly in recent months. Perhaps more of the work is being done inside? What causes this work to be done at such a slow pace?


----------



## Tiaren

Darryl said:


> From what can be seen exteriorly from the webcam, the progress moves VERY slowly in recent months. Perhaps more of the work is being done inside? What causes this work to be done at such a slow pace?


I swear I've explained this at least a dozen times in detail here.  So lemme not again go into full detail, but simply state:

*Skilled Worker Shortage*

additionally...

*Berlin*

The surrounding area of the City Palace lies in Berlin's authority. And Berlin, as we all know by now, is compared to other German cities a developing country. It's simply inapt to finish projects without huge delay times and huge cost explosions.
Recently I read somewhere that the entire surrounding area of the City Palace will only be finished in 2022. Just paving everything, adding some greenery and street furniture. And that's calculated excluding the very typical Berlin delay.


----------



## vankatalaan

Darryl said:


> Was a new opening/completion date established or announced?? I believe they originally said it would be completed in Sept 2019 I think? From what can be seen exteriorly from the webcam, the progress moves VERY slowly in recent months. Perhaps more of the work is being done inside? What causes this work to be done at such a slow pace?


Opening has been delayed to September 2020. It will go opening in stages.

Works are being done on the cladding of the dome, progress is visible.


----------



## Larrymuffin

Tiaren said:


> I swear I've explained this at least a dozen times in detail here.  So lemme not again go into full detail, but simply state:
> 
> *Skilled Worker Shortage*
> 
> additionally...
> 
> *Berlin*
> 
> The surrounding area of the City Palace lies in Berlin's authority. And Berlin, as we all know by now, is compared to other German cities a developing country. It's simply inapt to finish projects without huge delay times and huge cost explosions.
> Recently I read somewhere that the entire surrounding area of the City Palace will only be finished in 2022. Just paving everything, adding some greenery and street furniture. And that's calculated excluding the very typical Berlin delay.


Looking at the webcam daily I do see progress, slow but coming. Trees have been planted on the North East corner, also stone paving done on North side bit by bit. This past week what looks like a stone block fencing installed on North side. The subway station entrance on North West side is also coming along nicely. It is slow but coming. Inside lots of finishing work going on. The Dome is almost done with only a few more panels of copper to be installed before the lantern can be put into place.


----------



## Grimace

The Eagle said:


> *Hello everyone!
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/B]


Just wondering about the safety of this design. Does the Wippe actually rock back and forth? 

You'd think it was just a matter of time before a kid gets squashed underneath or it becomes a magnet for Coke cans or garbage.


----------



## Tiaren

*Happy New Year 2020, folks! * This will be the year in which the City Palace will be finally finished and officially opened.



dubaibobby said:


> Bilder von mir/gemeinfrei


----------



## Darryl

Just a curious thought/question...

How will they be able to prevent graffiti from being sprayed on the Stadtschloss? You know the taggers are waiting for those facades to have public access so they can gleefully mar those pale yellow surfaces with their drivel.


----------



## MisterDae

Snipers on the roof


----------



## gd123lbp

Dr.Seltsam said:


> 20200516_154745 by jan kapfer, auf Flickr
> 
> 
> 20200516_152810 by jan kapfer, auf Flickr
> 
> 
> 
> 20200516_144416 by jan kapfer, auf Flickr





Titan Man said:


> Why exactly should that happen? What would be the point?
> 
> On another note, I think things like these detract from the movement to reconstruct what was lost. It all gets intertwined with the conservative side of the politics, rendering it unattractive to a lot of people that lean left, which is sad 'cause all that matters is art and architecture, not politics.


I think it was just a joke, but you are absolutely right, maybe it isnt even right to joke about these things because we do not want to have this be considered a 'conservative' and therefore politicised reconstruction project. Beautiful art and architecture is for everyone, no matter their political persuasion. 
"All that matters is art and architecture", I absolutely agree! The building is looking fantastic.


----------



## robertwood

The Left politicizes everything anyway and in Germany they have been consistent in their opposition to reconstructions. They opposed the Berliner Stadtschloss reconstruction, the Garnisonkirche reconstruction in Potsdam and reconstruction of the Kaiser Wilhelm memorial, Try as we might to avoid this being a Left Right issue there is no escaping it. After the politics of the ages are long forgotten these monuments will still be standing.


----------



## Tiaren

News is that at the end of next week beautiful, bronze angels will crown the City Palace again.  Here is a short video of their assembly:







Interesting to point out is that the angels crowning the dome were and are again sexless. They are supposed to be etheral and unearthly, neither men nor women.


----------



## The Eagle

*Pictures from last Wednesday. The scaffolding was taken down another floor:*










Thank you, Mantikor, APH forum!


----------



## Fudgis

Looking in on the webcam today it appears further scaffolding is coming down (can't wait to get that first glimpse of the full facade) but more importantly the lantern's cupola and balustrade can now be seen standing by at ground level awaiting their final ascent!

This is just the kind of positive development we need to help beat those lockdown blues!


----------



## Tiaren

On the official webcam you can see that parts of the lantern have already been delivered! O:










29th May is the day the lantern will be hoisted on top of the dome, only if the weather plays along though. No strong winds allowed.


----------



## Tiaren

And the cross has been added to the lantern:


----------



## Tiaren

Technical drawing of the lantern and cross:


----------



## Tiaren

A glimpse of the cross by Maßwerk of the Stadtbild Deutschland Forum:


----------



## Ludi

(C) Mantikor


----------



## Ludi

(C) Mr. Chris


----------



## Tiaren

Any minute now! 









by Mr. Chris of Stadtbild Forum


----------



## Ludi

It is going up!!!


----------



## Tiaren

What a moment, I have been waiting for this day for over a decade! O:









by Mr. Chris of Stadtbild Deutschland Forum


----------



## Ludi




----------



## Tiaren

by Mr. Chris of Stadtbild Deutschland Forum


----------



## Ludi




----------



## Ludi




----------



## Titan Man

I'm overwhelmed right now, can't believe it's actually happening, after all these years of following updates and waiting... 🥳🥳


----------



## Darryl

Thanks for the pics guys because the webcam I check regularly went down right as they were starting to lift it.

Maybe it was the traffic of people trying to access the webcam?


----------



## gd123lbp

> How about we just ignore them.


 Agreed.
I believe the cross on the cupola was discussed and debated during the initial reconstuction debates. That argument was won of course, so these new objections should be ignored. This is an already settled argument.


----------



## MisterDae

You say that, but with the power the left holds within the government and academic institutions nothing is safe. Look at the old memorials across the US, many have been removed for ideological purposes- whilst I believe it’s safe for now, that may not hold true forever, especially since many leftists denounced the whole reconstruction in the first place. I think it’s important to realise that hostility to this project exists and is malevolent.


----------



## robertwood

Like I said in a previous post, the Left politicizes everything. The cupola has not even but up a full day and already they have started. I didn't get many likes on that post but I am already being proven right. The Left is always unhappy or offended about something. I've got an idea. How about we just ignore them.


----------



## Titan Man

Lol, how I love when the rightwingers find some irrelevant nobody who sits in a government-funded think tank and whose only job is to keep themselves in the public eye, no matter the methods, and then get all offended and screechy about that person's dumb, irrelevant opinion. Who are the real "snowflakes" here? 😂 No one serious or important has any problem with the cross, it's already there, it was there yesterday and it will be there tomorrow, find something else to be outraged about, God knows the world is a shitty place with plenty of that to offer...
I think I wrote a post here about the disastrous effect of associating the movement for reconstruction of destroyed heritage with the right wing of the political spectrum a couple of pages ago, you're not doing anyone a favor by making that mistake, especially not to those people who are dedicating their lives for bringing more monuments back to life...


----------



## Suburbanist

MisterDae said:


> You say that, but with the power the left holds within the government and academic institutions nothing is safe. Look at the old memorials across the US, many have been removed for ideological purposes- whilst I believe it’s safe for now, that may not hold true forever, especially since many leftists denounced the whole reconstruction in the first place. I think it’s important to realise that hostility to this project exists and is malevolent.


Confederate monuments in the US have been removed because they were erected, very specifically, to commemorate the return of a racialized framework of laws that put ex-slaves "back in their place" after the Civil War. Also, these monuments hold enormous emotional way for a certain part of the American population that reels being no longer the undisputed religious/ancestry majority, and see its grip on society slip. If nobody cared about the underlying cause behind the monuments today (like nobody cares about - say - Napoleonic visions of a French-controlled Europe from the Pyrenees to the Urals), then nobody would react against their presence. 

So the historical reconstruction of crosses will only bother a few here and there. The German government is not becoming less secular, and the cross is not being used as some rallying cry for people wanting to impose religion upon the German population. A very different situation. 

Confederate monuments could be, actually, closely compared to would-be Nazi-glorifying monuments in Germany, if they existed. Imagine a monument in Berlin honoring dead SS officers and acknowledging the pain in the families who lost fathers and brothers on Hitler special forces. That is the best analogue for Confederete monuments in the US - celebration of generals and movements that fought on the wrong side of an extremely racist war, lost the war, but left bitterness among the communities that supported them. 

The cross on the forum has none of these symbolic roles whatsoever.


----------



## Mr Bricks

^^ One can of course rationalise it any way one wants, however, it is still the same tendency we see in many parts of Europe where denial of nazi/soviet crimes or uncovering of national crimes is made illegal. That is sanitation of history. Even at some western universities we see attempts to remove or ban paintings, statues and books. These kinds of policies sit comfortably with book burnings. Buying into the myth that there is a significant white supremacy movement in America isn't helpful either, and even if there was one removing statues would surely grow their numbers not reduce them. We shouldn't politicise architecture, but the problem is it already is and always will be.


----------



## Dorquest

MisterDae said:


> Cross causes controversy atop Berlin Palace
> 
> 
> The hoisting of a Christianised dome to top off Berlin's rebuilt imperial palace-turned-museum complex has run into controversy. Critics say Germany is missing a chance to portray post-colonial multicultural diversity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.dw.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An article, which claims the cross on the cupola is offensive and should be removed- the things only just gone up ffs. From the article- a local rabbi wants the text on the cupola removed and a black woman wants the cross removed as ‘colonialism was done with a Christian pretext’. These leftists have an almost neurotic response to anything that isn’t blatantly leftist. Apparently, they missed an opportunity to promote ‘diversity and multiculturalism’ on a historic landmark. Beggars belief.


"a local rabbi wants the text on the cupola removed" …can't believe he had enough time to make a comment on this...thought he was too busy building multicultural settlements on the West Bank in Israel. Oops, I’m sorry meant to say Jewish settlements on the West Bank.


----------



## MisterDae

Suburbanist said:


> Confederate monuments in the US have been removed because they were erected, very specifically, to commemorate the return of a racialized framework of laws that put ex-slaves "back in their place" after the Civil War. Also, these monuments hold enormous emotional way for a certain part of the American population that reels being no longer the undisputed religious/ancestry majority, and see its grip on society slip. If nobody cared about the underlying cause behind the monuments today (like nobody cares about - say - Napoleonic visions of a French-controlled Europe from the Pyrenees to the Urals), then nobody would react against their presence.
> 
> So the historical reconstruction of crosses will only bother a few here and there. The German government is not becoming less secular, and the cross is not being used as some rallying cry for people wanting to impose religion upon the German population. A very different situation.
> 
> Confederate monuments could be, actually, closely compared to would-be Nazi-glorifying monuments in Germany, if they existed. Imagine a monument in Berlin honoring dead SS officers and acknowledging the pain in the families who lost fathers and brothers on Hitler special forces. That is the best analogue for Confederete monuments in the US - celebration of generals and movements that fought on the wrong side of an extremely racist war, lost the war, but left bitterness among the communities that supported them.
> 
> The cross on the forum has none of these symbolic roles whatsoever.


Imagine thinking the US civil war was about the liberation of slaves, lol. 

The confederate statues were made to commemorate war heroes and the dead the same as any other memorial- just because the confederacy lost didn’t mean they felt any differently about centralised power. To people at the time these men were heroes fighting for their cause, and now the statues are a part of history- which is not to be judged but only remembered. You are in fact advocating for the suppression of history in order to appease current morality; you cannot judge history through the lens of today. My point with the statues is that they serve as precedent for removal, and the people that had them removed are the same people likely to be opposed to the cupola cross.


----------



## MisterDae

Titan Man said:


> Lol, how I love when the rightwingers find some irrelevant nobody who sits in a government-funded think tank and whose only job is to keep themselves in the public eye, no matter the methods, and then get all offended and screechy about that person's dumb, irrelevant opinion. Who are the real "snowflakes" here?  No one serious or important has any problem with the cross, it's already there, it was there yesterday and it will be there tomorrow, find something else to be outraged about, God knows the world is a shitty place with plenty of that to offer...
> I think I wrote a post here about the disastrous effect of associating the movement for reconstruction of destroyed heritage with the right wing of the political spectrum a couple of pages ago, you're not doing anyone a favor by making that mistake, especially not to those people who are dedicating their lives for bringing more monuments back to life...


Who said I was a ‘right winger’? You’re generalising a massive portion of society and reducing a vast array of opinions into one tiny view which you can then more easily attack (a straw man). 
How is a ‘government funded think-tank’ a ‘nobody’. This is literally an oxymoron- you’d have a point if I’d pulled a few tweets off of Twitter, but this article provides multiple different cultural leaders (a Rabbi, academics etc) all with views in opposition to the building. Surely, someone who cares about and supports this reconstruction would find my bringing these opinions to their attention insightful? The fact that you resorted, rudely and without justification to calling me and others ‘snowflakes’ seriously derides my value of your opinion. Ad hominem is the clearest sign of a poor argument.


----------



## Titan Man

MisterDae said:


> Who said I was a ‘right winger’? You’re generalising a massive portion of society and reducing a vast array of opinions into one tiny view which you can then more easily attack (a straw man).
> How is a ‘government funded think-tank’ a ‘nobody’. This is literally an oxymoron- you’d have a point if I’d pulled a few tweets off of Twitter, but this article provides multiple different cultural leaders (a Rabbi, academics etc) all with views in opposition to the building. Surely, someone who cares about and supports this reconstruction would find my bringing these opinions to their attention insightful? The fact that you resorted, rudely and without justification to calling me and others ‘snowflakes’ seriously derides my value of your opinion. Ad hominem is the clearest sign of a poor argument.


Last time I've looked at my previous post, I haven't quoted any of your posts directly, so you're the one recognising yourself in what I've said. I was referencing those who said that the leftists are the ones getting offended about everything, when that's obviously not the case. Also, to think that a local rabbi or some woman working in one of the countless organizations that don't do, well, anything for anyone, means something important to broad German population is ridiculous. It's just media finding literally whomever they can find to shit on something currently popular among the people, I've seen things like that a million times before, and it's obviously doing what it was meant to do, make people fight over silly things so they forget in what kind of shithole of a world we live in. The article is worthless. The opinion of the people in the article is worthless. The cross is at the top of the dome, it will stay at the top of the dome, and nothing will change that. I don't even understand why you guys give this story any fuel.


----------



## 112998

I think it is enough with the politics. We are all here to see the pictures of this beautiful rebuild.


----------



## MisterDae

I agree that the article is worthless Titan man, but it provides evidence of dissent towards the reconstruction which is something I felt worthy of sharing in this thread- especially since the construction phase is nearing completion now; discourse will naturally move from construction to wider related branches such as public and private reaction, the wider reconstruction movement and so forth.


----------



## robertwood

"I was referencing those who said that the leftists are the ones getting offended about everything, when that's obviously not the case." Obviously? BTW can you reference something in architecture that the non-Leftists, or right wing, if you please, have initiated being offended over?


----------



## Seanrhine

How long will it take for copper to change color ?


----------



## MisterDae

For complete patina, up to 20 years.


----------



## Seanrhine

Omg


----------



## Tiaren

MisterDae said:


> For complete patina, up to 20 years.





Seanrhine said:


> Omg



It will take much longer than that. Copper doesn't naturally oxidize as fast as it did many decades ago. There's less acid rain, cleaner air etc. The Bode-Museum's dome, which was faithfully reconstructed and clad with copper in 2002 is a good nearby example. It still has a slightly reddish tone and hasn't even turned fully dark gray yet.










Only after it turns dark gray the desired green patina will very slowly emerge.
Patinizing on the dome of the also nearby Cathedral has basically stopped. For as long as I can remember (decades?) the remaining unpatinized dark gray spots did not change.


----------



## MisterDae

They may have to do it manually then, perhaps with some sort of chemical application- is this possible?


----------



## Suburbanist

The lack of by-products of inefficient and unfiltered coal burning, and sulfur-free vehicular fuel, means reactions are much slower, it might take 150-200 years for the process to take place.


----------



## KubicaMaster

Nice. Natural colour of copper > patina


----------



## Dr.Seltsam

Die Kuppel auf dem Berliner Stadtschloss by micharl_foto, auf Flickr



Die Kuppel auf dem Berliner Stadtschloss by micharl_foto, auf Flickr



Die Kuppel auf dem Berliner Stadtschloss by micharl_foto, auf Flickr


----------



## Ludi

(C) Maßwerk









(C) Mantikor


----------



## Grimace

Indirectly related to the Humbold Forum but its surroundings. Any chance the spires of the Berliner Dom will be brought up to par? And how about the *State Council Building* (German: _Staatsratsgebäude_)?


----------



## Ludi

Would be nice, if they rebuild the "softer" spires of the Dom. The "Staatsratsgebäude" is fine, they shouldnt demolish it in my opinion.


----------



## GTorres

There's some good points about restoring a monarchy, but it definitely hasn't place here. 
I think matters like rebuilding and having History back again is different from just arguing to resurrect all the past and bringing it to the present exactly as it was.


----------



## Xorcist

Ludi said:


> Would be nice, if they rebuild the "softer" spires of the Dom. The "Staatsratsgebäude" is fine, they shouldnt demolish it in my opinion.


I remember, that when the cross on the dome of the cathedral had to be replaced a few years ago, there was already a discussion about rebuilding the dome spires to its pre-war condition. Due to the fact that the domes of the cathedral in their present form are under monument protection, structural changes are impossible. Personally, I find this extremely unfortunate. The current situation makes the domes seem strangely disproportionate.


----------



## Nando_ros

Source


----------



## gd123lbp

Fantastic photos!


----------



## Cluney

This construction is the proof that how important is to take the needed time with these kind of reconstructions of key historic buildings. In the other hand when they hurry up things (Dres,ejem,den,ejem) the final result usually looks very false or giant model like.
So in this case, bravo for the work done on the Berlín Palace!! And after its completition soon, I hope that it will time for a redone of the glorious Kaiser Wilhelm Monument!


----------



## Tiaren




----------



## Garfyld

So cool, thank for amazing shots. By the way, what is the deadline, when the work will completely be done?


----------



## Xorcist

Cluney said:


> This construction is the proof that how important is to take the needed time with these kind of reconstructions of key historic buildings. In the other hand when they hurry up things (Dres,ejem,den,ejem) the final result usually looks very false or giant model like.
> So in this case, bravo for the work done on the Berlín Palace!! And after its completition soon, I hope that it will time for a redone of the glorious Kaiser Wilhelm Monument!


I'm sorry to disappoint you. Even if the pompous Kaiser-Wilhelm National Monument fits better to this place, a reconstruction is simply impossible. Why should we erect a bombastic monument to the emperor? This is politically and socially a completely wrong signal. West Germany has been a stable, successful democracy for more than 70 years, a much longer period than the empire's monarchy, which was rightly abolished. The East German socialist dictatorship did only survive for 40 years. Reunification was 30 years ago. However, at the end of May, the ground-breaking ceremony was held for the erection of the Freedom and Unification Monument in place of the Kaiser Wilhelm National Monument. The construction work is now in full swing.








(c) Milla&Partner


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

The new unification monument may be great modern art but looks completely out of place in front of a baroque building. It still seems to me that they should have rebuilt the colonnades of the Kaiser Wilhelm monument and then put up something in the center commemorating German reunification.


----------



## Shenkey

It will looks totally fine when you get used to it.

Old and modern usually mix pretty well.


----------



## MisterDae

I’d either reconstruct the original or replace the Kaiser with Bismarck or someone similar. The colonnades though should return.


----------



## gd123lbp

Yeah its a shame that the colonnades wont return. I dont think the statue of the kaiser will ever return/ or ever should.


----------



## JBsam

The fully agree that erecting a monument to Kaiser-Wilhelm would be completely ludicrous, but frankly they could have done a better job with the Freedom and Unification Monument. This looks ridiculous and does not fit the surroundings.


----------



## Tiaren

Making of the lantern and cross and it being hoisted up onto the dome with English subtitles:


----------



## Joe Whalen 7

I don't understand why architects seem to think that it's alright to put up something "modern" alongside of or in front of a building or in a neighborhood of buildings from another era. If the shoe were on the other foot and they wanted to put up something neoclassical in front of a modernistic building or in a neighborhood that was composed only of modernistic structures, they would be having a fit.


----------



## gd123lbp

Joe Whalen 7 said:


> I don't understand why architects seem to think that it's alright to put up something "modern" alongside of or in front of a building or in a neighborhood of buildings from another era. If the shoe were on the other foot and they wanted to put up something neoclassical in front of a modernistic building or in a neighborhood that was composed only of modernistic structures, they would be having a fit.


Because they all think in these cliché phrases like, "creating juxtapositions", "challenging people", "breaking with the past" etc. Its actually self contradictory, the modernists cant ever settle on anything good because they have to move on immediately to continue to be "cutting edge". So everything they build clashes with itself and everything around it by definition.


----------



## EightFive

Oh, i bet i know.

Did as many turn out to protest the govt, say about 80 years ago?


----------



## MisterDae

Let’s keep this thread strictly on topic please, politics is a sure fire way of derailing the thread.


----------



## Darryl

They were protesting being asked to wear masks for COVID19. 

Now back to the Stadtschloss.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Darryl said:


> They were protesting being asked to wear masks for COVID19.
> 
> Now back to the Stadtschloss.


The Humboldt Forum was scheduled to be opened next month. Is that still the case, anyone?


----------



## Hobbymarc

strandeed said:


> Dresden was not a war crime... it was a victim of a natural phenomena (firestorm) caused by high winds.
> 
> Could have happened in any city.
> 
> Hamburg actually suffered a worse fire-storm and subsequent carnage than Dresden, but is not as published.


Dresden should never have been bombed! 
It was a magnificent Baroque city without any strategic significance...
In januari 1945, the war was as good as lost by Hitler.
It was a crime!


----------



## qjone2

Bombing Dresden was not unreasonable. Bombing Dresden to the _extent_ that occurred was, however, not at all justified. There were legitimate targets in Dresden, they just weren't specifically attacked. A number of them managed to get caught up in the attack yes, but others survived.

Legitimate targets should have been bombed. Some damage to the urban fabric would have occurred, sure, but the city as a whole would have been mostly unscathed. It's a shame this wasn't the approach the Allies took.

This is off topic though. The original comment was from 2011.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

qjone2 said:


> Bombing Dresden was not unreasonable. Bombing Dresden to the _extent_ that occurred was, however, not at all justified. There were legitimate targets in Dresden, they just weren't specifically attacked. A number of them managed to get caught up in the attack yes, but others survived.
> 
> Legitimate targets should have been bombed. Some damage to the urban fabric would have occurred, sure, but the city as a whole would have been mostly unscathed. It's a shame this wasn't the approach the Allies took.
> 
> This is off topic though. The original comment was from 2011.


For anyone who wants to read a detailed history of the bombing of Dresden, I recommend a recent book; The Fire and the Darkness, by Sinclair McKay. That's all I'll say on the matter as I agree with most people who post here that we should concentrate on the almost miraculous restoration of Dresden. To be realistic, we'll never see a complete replacement of the pre-war city. Considering that the Neumarkt was a parking lot only a few years ago, I'm very pleased with what has been done to this city in my lifetime.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Steve Gatlin said:


> For anyone who wants to read a detailed history of the bombing of Dresden, I recommend a recent book; The Fire and the Darkness, by Sinclair McKay. That's all I'll say on the matter as I agree with most people who post here that we should concentrate on the almost miraculous restoration of Dresden. To be realistic, we'll never see a complete replacement of the pre-war city. Considering that the Neumarkt was a parking lot only a few years ago, I'm very pleased with what has been done to this city in my lifetime.


Back to the Humboldt Forum: Does anyone else find the new Unification Monument a bit odd? Considering it is dedicated to the reunification of the country it sure is a whimsical piece of sculpture. I wonder how the maintenance crews will deal with any windblown garbage that will get stuck under the thing.


----------



## Xorcist

buntspecht said:


> The monument is for germans and a reminiscence of younger german history and culture. But of course americans are allowed to find it a bit odd.


A large part of the population also rejects the design of the monument. Nevertheless, it will be built against all protests, questions, all head shaking. A banal, odd design. Apparently the team of architects understood little about the process of unity. For it was not brought about by a joke, a balancing act or gymnastics exercises, but by protests and rebellion under great danger: under the constant threat of firearms, of arrest, torture, surveillance and psychological terror, right down to the closest family circle.


----------



## Darryl

Wouldn't it be visually better and allow easier access to the Humboldt Forum to crowds of people to have stairs and/or an escalator up to ground level rather than one above-ground elevator box visually marring the plaza in front of the palace?


----------



## The Eagle

*at Darryl: I am sorry. What do you mean? The elevators are in the massive, massive inner courts.

at keepthepast: Can you check your "conversations" in your profile, please? I am sending you posts.

Alright, everybody. Enough talking about other weird issues! To open the Humboldt Forum in December,
the construction takes on speed. The lock down took time and nerves! 
Here are some pictures:

























*
pictures from Matikor, thank you for that!


----------



## Mr Bricks

buntspecht said:


> I think you just do not understand the meta level.


How profound. This kind of attitude is the only rationalization for modern art these days. Recently a monument to Finnish-Swedish historical unity was built in Helsinki, and literally it is just a pole in the ground and some blocks of stone thrown about. Supposedly though it harbours some kind of symbolism and acts as a starter of "important conversations" (criticism of its ugliness).


----------



## Xorcist

buntspecht said:


> I think you just do not understand the meta level.


Oh, I am well acquainted with the concept of the monument and find it completely inappropriate for this very reason. Instead of simply insulting me, you could of course try to criticize constructively. The winning design of the movable bowl met with rejection in the feuilletons, but also among the majority of the population. The monument is about nothing else then the banalization of the peaceful revolution. A kind of seesaw caused by a playful herd - excuse me, of course they call it "social sculpture".


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Darryl said:


> Wouldn't it be visually better and allow easier access to the Humboldt Forum to crowds of people to have stairs and/or an escalator up to ground level rather than one above-ground elevator box visually marring the plaza in front of the palace?


The elevator box you are referring to might be for access to the new U-Bahn station.


----------



## The Eagle

*Thank you Steve Gatlin! That is what Darryl is talking about! Made me wonder. 
There is a brand new U-Bahn build. Also U-Bahn stations. That is all for that station. 
It will look beautiful inside. Traditional inspired. With blue sky and the lights as stars shining through! 
Inspired by the "Flute" play.

This U-Bahn has some history crazy of its own: Planned and started around 1910, the construction had to be stopped when the allies blackmailed Germany in the 20`s for money and also invaded. The construction stopped. When the construction was just about to start in 1939, war broke out and the construction had to be stopped again!
The build was not continued after the war, because one end would have been in the East, behind the iron curtain and the other end in the West, today located by the main railway station. The DDR had also no money to do an expansion on their lands. After the Wende` in 1990, the planers decided to build buildings and tunnel on one side simultaneously to save money and therefore the build started on the other side. Trains already ride on the other side stations. So, hundred years in the making ''''''
Funny how things go!*


----------



## Darryl




----------



## Darryl

Yes. To clarify, I was speaking of the image above. It is the entrance to the new U5 station. My opinion is that stairs or escalators would look better in front of the Palace rather than this lone above ground elevator box. It's unsightly.


----------



## TM_Germany

The stairs are already further back in the picture. The elevator is necessary to be wheelchair accessible. But don't worry, I don't think you'll really notice it much. I haven't seen that box on any picture so far.


----------



## robertwood




----------



## robertwood

The first image is a visualization at the start of this thread in 2011. Now we have the real thing! A happy ending to be sure!


----------



## KubicaMaster

Cubaomate said:


> Will the statues on top of the other portals be placed, as well as the central shield in the main portal?!


The great cartouche of the Eosander portal is already in the works. 26 balustrade statues above the portals and dome will also return. Furthermore, they will reconstruct the vestibules of the portals I, IV and V.

















Berliner Extrablatt Ausgabe 93


Read Berliner Extrablatt Ausgabe 93 by Förderverein Berliner Schloss on Issuu and browse thousands of other publications on our platform. Start here!




issuu.com









Spendenstand und Mittelverwendung | Berliner Schloss


Spendenstand und Mittelverwendung Der Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V. hat im Jahr 2015 dem Deutschen Bundestag zugesagt, den gesamten Mehrpreis der historischen Schlossfassaden gegenüber einer modernen Fassade im Wert von 105 Millionen Euro zu finanzieren. Mit der Summe von 105 Millionen Euro...



berliner-schloss.de





The great cartouche:









The eight prophets Jesaja, Hosea, Zephania, Zacharias, Jonas, Daniel, Jeremias and Hesekiel:


----------



## KubicaMaster

Snowy palace









Quelle: Rotes Rathaus









Quelle: Webcam Berliner Schloss - Westfassade | Hi.Res.Cam


----------



## Steve Gatlin

the spliff fairy said:


> 1. Why on EARTH is there a modernist face to this? Even modern architects shake their heads. I'm trying to think of an analogy (eg rebuilding a beautiful church but having one side like a tower block in keeping with the fact you tore down a tower block, in a sea of tower blocks, to do so), but I can't think of a better one. Rebuilding a baroque palace, but keeping one side plain out of respect for the brutalism that replaced in the first place.
> 
> Got one: like rewilding an Amazonian jungle, but keeping half an empty field out of respect for the farmers that used to plough it.
> 
> 2. Why oh why oh why does it have to be the one adjacent to the cathedral? There should be none at all imo.


When the project was approved, that was a requirement in building the structure. I'm not making excuses for the brutalist side--I think it's a bad idea too.


----------



## Nando_ros

Stadtschloss Berlin by David Bank, en Flickr

Stadtschloss Berlin by David Bank, en Flickr

Berlin Schlossbrücke by David Bank, en Flickr

Stadtschloss Berlin by David Bank, en Flickr

Humboldtforum Berlin by David Bank, en Flickr


----------



## Grant Menner




----------



## makoppa

Wrong thread ya nong


----------



## Meist99

Steve Gatlin said:


> When the project was approved, that was a requirement in building the structure. I'm not making excuses for the brutalist side--I think it's a bad idea too.


I am pretty sure the mondern facade will be replaced in 20 years. 
To be honest it is more than a wonder that a Prussian baroque palace replica with at least 3 original facades could be rebuild in a city like Berlin.


----------



## Darryl

Yeah, I think we're hella lucky to even get the 3 sides, so let's be grateful at least for that.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Darryl said:


> Yeah, I think we're hella lucky to even get the 3 sides, so let's be grateful at least for that.


I couldn't agree more with you!


----------



## * Dark Cathedral *

KubicaMaster said:


> The great cartouche of the Eosander portal is already in the works. 26 balustrade statues above the portals and dome will also return. Furthermore, they will reconstruct the vestibules of the portals I, IV and V.
> 
> View attachment 926562
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Berliner Extrablatt Ausgabe 93
> 
> 
> Read Berliner Extrablatt Ausgabe 93 by Förderverein Berliner Schloss on Issuu and browse thousands of other publications on our platform. Start here!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> issuu.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spendenstand und Mittelverwendung | Berliner Schloss
> 
> 
> Spendenstand und Mittelverwendung Der Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V. hat im Jahr 2015 dem Deutschen Bundestag zugesagt, den gesamten Mehrpreis der historischen Schlossfassaden gegenüber einer modernen Fassade im Wert von 105 Millionen Euro zu finanzieren. Mit der Summe von 105 Millionen Euro...
> 
> 
> 
> berliner-schloss.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The great cartouche:
> View attachment 926559
> 
> 
> The eight prophets Jesaja, Hosea, Zephania, Zacharias, Jonas, Daniel, Jeremias and Hesekiel:
> View attachment 926633


Thank you for this information !!!!


----------



## JDewar

the spliff fairy said:


> Stage 2, ten years down the line: rebuilding the Spree side.


Well, there was previously a mixture of different structures from different time periods on that side of the palace. When approving the design competition and funds for the reconstruction, it was written into law that the Spree facade should be something new, and not a historical reconstruction.


----------



## KubicaMaster

Julius Raschdorff had already created the perfect design for the east facade a long time ago. 






















































Berliner Stadtschloss - Suche


Europeana




www.europeana.eu












Berlin - Architekturcollage


Geschichtliche Vorraussetzungen “Es ist die Tragik eines Schicksaals, dass das aus einer wendischen Fischersiedlung zu einer mächtigen Millionenstadt und Reichshauptstadt emporgewachsene Berlin dazu verdammt ist immerfort zu werden – und niemals zu sein.” – (Karl Scheffler, 1919) Berlin ist...




architekturcollage.de












Vom Münzturm zum Fernsehturm. Höhendominanten in der Stadtplanung von Berlin | Humboldt Forum


Im Jahr 1986 veröffentlichte der renommierte DDR-Architekturkritiker Bruno Flierl einen noch heute bedeutenden Text Berliner Stadtplanung. In diesem beschäftigte sich Flierl mit dem Ringen von Bauherren und Architekten um symbolische Macht mittels Höhendominanten. Wer die historischen...




www.humboldtforum.org


----------



## Darryl

^^
Oh to just dream


----------



## delores

Are there any plans for the ESMT building opposite?


----------



## Xorcist

delores said:


> Are there any plans for the ESMT building opposite?


The ESMT building, the former GDR Council of State building, has been a listed building since 1993. The building was completely renovated from 2003 to 2005 at a cost of 35 million euros and converted for university purposes. There are no further plans for the building.


----------



## Darryl

Sheesh, they could've had a much nicer result after a 35 million Euro renovation. Do they purposely try to make things as ugly as possible in Berlin?


----------



## Xorcist

For a few years now, more and more commieblocks in Berlin have been placed under monument protection.
The aim is to ensure that monuments are permanently preserved and not adulterated, damaged, impaired or destroyed, thus permanently safeguarding these cultural assets. For this reason, the building may not be structurally changed. Personally, I think the city is overdoing it and many of that buildings should simply be demolished.


----------



## Towers_&_Spires

Hopefully the Stadtschloss has a civilizing effect on future construction in the area. I'm hoping that it will encourage a faithful reconstruction for the Bauakademie.


----------



## Saltovka

Can't even imagine the city without it now!


----------



## Lönnrot

KubicaMaster said:


> Julius Raschdorff had already created the perfect design for the east facade a long time ago.












I'd love to see the bridge over the rail tracks again! Hundreds of sbahn rides every day going and coming from work, watching its remainings and thinking "if I just had the money..."









Quelle: youtube min 30:36.


----------



## Ecopolisia

Steve Gatlin said:


> There are more statues coming that will decorate the corners of the dome just below the copper part. As usual, it's about funding but the public seems to like what's done so far and the money has been flowing in. As far as the Spree facade goes: Most of us on this forum think it was an unfortunate mistake to combine baroque beauty with brutalist ugliness. Oh well, most of the building is awesome. I'm hopeful the pandemic will recede eventually and we anglophones can visit to see the wonderful restorations in Berlin, Potsdam, and Dresden!


Oh, waow, nice to know, thanks. And, the spree is in fact and tbh quite ok and lovely at night, especially, just a long they upgrade or fully imitate the already existing neo-classical facades to its former glory in its full extent, but it seem - according to you - that it will. For sure. So, I'm overall slightly more than satisfied, yeah and yay. Good for you Berliners, not referring to you Steve of course, but yeah indeed they are sure worth visiting . Ganz bestimmt😉😅👍

PS: Any current news OR rather any proposed replica/rebuild plans about the other non-connecting smaller and lower neo-classical building a long the quay front of the entrance?Or just a never-built replica/rebuild-vision? .. hmm?.. 🤔🙃😉


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Ecopolisia said:


> Oh, waow, nice to know, thanks. And, the spree is in fact and tbh quite ok and lovely at night, especially, just a long they upgrade or fully imitate the already existing neo-classical facades to its former glory in its full extent, but it seem - according to you - that it will. For sure. So, I'm overall slightly more than satisfied, yeah and yay. Good for you Berliners, not referring to you Steve if course, but yeah indeed they are sure worth. visiting . Ganz bestimmt😉😅👍
> 
> PS: Any current news OR rather any proposed replica/rebuild plans about the other non-connecting smaller and lower neo-classical building a long the quay front of the entrance?Or just a never-built replica/rebuild-vision? .. hmm?.. 🤔🙃😉


I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that you're referring to the Kaiser Wilhelm (the first) Memorial (?) since you said along the quay but in front of the Humboldt Forum. If you are, that will not be rebuilt. Instead, there will be a new memorial to Unity and Peace. Artist renderings of that artwork are shown on this thread but you'll have to go back several "pages" to find it. I call it the see saw saucer, because it looks like a mint dish and it tilts as people walking on it move from one side to another. Berlin being such a quirky fun place, this will fit right in!


----------



## Ecopolisia

Steve Gatlin said:


> I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that you're referring to the Kaiser Wilhelm (the first) Memorial (?) since you said along the quay but in front of the Humboldt Forum. If you are, that will not be rebuilt. Instead, there will be a new memorial to Unity and Peace. Artist renderings of that artwork are shown on this thread but you'll have to go back several "pages" to find it. I call it the see saw saucer, because it looks like a mint dish and it tilts as people walking on it move from one side to another. Berlin being such a quirky fun place, this will fit right in!


Oh, ok, thanks to that, too. Didn't know that in the first place, like at all. Great to witness that piece of information about the whole project in its full extent as well, incl. the up coming latest addition to it. Yeah, it sure sounds fun and typically Berlin-funky like of what I have read by your sayings😁😉👌👍


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Ecopolisia said:


> Oh, ok, thanks to that, too. Didn't know that in the first place, like at all. Great to witness that piece of information about the whole project in its full extent as well, incl. the up coming latest addition to it. Yeah, it sure sounds fun and typically Berlin-funky like of what I have read by your sayings😁😉👌👍


Correction: The new monument will be to Unity and Freedom! Also, I've read that the mosaic floor of the original Wilhelm monument still exists and is under the pavement in front of the Dome Portal of the Humboldt Forum. It is under government protection as a historical remnant. My question to anyone who might know: Will this floor be integrated into the new monument to Unity and Freedom?


----------



## Ecopolisia

Steve Gatlin said:


> Correction: The new monument will be to Unity and Freedom! Also, I've read that the mosaic floor of the original Wilhelm monument still exists and is under the pavement in front of the Dome Portal of the Humboldt Forum. It is under government protection as a historical remnant. My question to anyone who might know: Will this floor be integrated into the new monument to Unity and Freedom?


Yeah, ok, good to know. And, yeah I wonder that too,tbh. I surely would know that for sure as well👍😅🌈


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello everyone!*


----------



## gd123lbp

The reconstruction is beautiful but, its a shame about this gap here:








(circled in red)
It doesnt mix the old with the new, it divides them awkwardly. It makes it look like the modern part was just stuck on afterwards.


----------



## nightscraper

Maybe that's the idea.


----------



## Darryl

gd123lbp said:


> The reconstruction is beautiful but, its a shame about this gap here:
> View attachment 1287369
> 
> (circled in red)
> It doesnt mix the old with the new, it divides them awkwardly. It makes it look like the modern part was just stuck on afterwards.


It's even much worse on the other (south) side


----------



## gravesVpelli

I think they have done the best in the circumstances. How does one attach a modernist block to a Neo-Baroque façade as a seamless continuation? You can't. It appears slightly inset which is the best achievement. A blank inset wall in the same materials (without any windows) would have been preferable perhaps. Although the Modernist side is fine in its own right, it is disappointing that they could not have completed the river side in the same Neo style, unless economics were a determination. However, this recreation of the past is an impressive achievement, compared with what stood here in the communist period.


----------



## nightscraper

It allows future reconstructions.


----------



## Darryl

gravesVpelli said:


> I think they have done the best in the circumstances. How does one attach a modernist block to a Neo-Baroque façade as a seamless continuation? You can't. It appears slightly inset which is the best achievement. A blank inset wall in the same materials (without any windows) would have been preferable perhaps.


I have to respectfully disagree. I think just the opposite. I believe the recessed part inbetween the baroque and the modernist parts should have been all or mostly glass. That in my opinion would have created a more appealing transition. Having so much blank stone there is ugly. Maybe a vertical garden in those recesses would soften the transition.


----------



## Sevillano47

The modernist part looks like a Speer desing.


----------



## Towers_&_Spires

I agree. Ironically, the most "fascist"-looking part of the building is the Spree side.


----------



## nightscraper

It could've been worse, It could've been made of glass, like a DDR palast 2.0


----------



## Darryl

I think it would've looked better if made of glass. Not ugly bronze glass like the DDR palast, but contemporary glass like the Louvre pyramid or the Reichstag dome.


----------



## The Eagle

They med in the middle. Half gets rebuild in old and the other half in Bauhaus stile. That was the agreement in Parliament in the early 2000`s. Nobody loses and nobody wins. Very common in Germany. Had nothing to do with money. The old wing also had inner courts, therefore hard to use and too wasteful in space. 
The current building is already considered almost too small as it is for museum and entertainment space in one. 
But it needed to be build to complete the Museum island collection, the worlds largest collections in public display.
Asia and Africa was still missing. So they build the Humboldt Forum. Not to confuse with the Louvre in Paris. That one is the larges museum in the world. Berlin`s Museum island has a bigger collection still. But is divided in several museums. The Asia collection was moved in from Dahlem by the way, witch was insufficient in many ways. 

Right now, the space around is being build. Behind the curtain is a huge fight. Some member of government involved in the design is accusing Mrs. Luescher to make the space as bad as possible on purpose. He was involved in the process. He is not the only one complaining that the outside is ugly as payback for getting the Schloss back. 
While that is going on, the pro Schloss side is trying with help of the federal level to bring back the two Reiter, the satues of the Dutch Royal family and the fountain. Money is not the problem. Private and Business donors as well as the federal Government would pay for all of it. But the city of Berlin is refusing to take the money.


----------



## Darryl

Ugh. I almost wish I hadn't read that. How infuriating.

How can people be so opposed to beauty to the point of actively fighting against it? Boggles my mind


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Darryl said:


> Ugh. I almost wish I hadn't read that. How infuriating.
> 
> How can people be so opposed to beauty to the point of actively fighting against it? Boggles my mind


I can understand not wanting to rebuild memorials to royalty, considering European history. Statues to Dutch royalty might seem a stretch for most Berliners. Not wanting a fountain though is hard to understand.


----------



## Darryl

Feel free to go ahead and put up that main cartouche any day now. Seriously, any day now. Feel free. LOL


----------



## The Eagle

*Let`s check the greenery outside. The plants come from areas represented inside with the collections:































































The other side of the river: The corner of the Schinkel Academy, behind the ministry of State...



























They should grow vines around that U-bahn entrance:







*
Thanks, Snork!


----------



## KubicaMaster

BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction (Stadtschloss) -...


I sure hope they plan to illuminate the dome at night in the future. Looking at the webcam, they are not currently.




www.skyscrapercity.com










The next big thing!







www.fittkau-metallbau.de





"As in the years 2017 to 2020, the Berlin Palace will keep us very busy in 2021. 
We have been commissioned to create the so-called "Great Coat of Arms Cartouche". 
It is a huge copper work that will be mounted on the façade of the main portal III, the coat of arms cartouche is approx. 6,500 mm wide and 8,000 mm high. The crown alone, which we have been working on for several weeks, is almost 2 metres high. We will continue to report."









© fittkau metallgestaltung gmbh 









© Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V.









© Förderverein Berliner Schloss e.V.


----------



## Darryl

Wow that main cartouche is THAT big?? Just the crown part of it is as big as a man?

That U-Bahn elevator is really visually distracting in that plaza in front of the Schloss. Same with that odd corner of the Schinkel Academy. Will they ever actually build that thing? The corner just sitting there like that is weird.


----------



## nightscraper

That lift botches all the perspectives.


----------



## The Eagle

As I said: That complex fits more than 600 semi detached family homes! 
Huge spaces for event, work and museum. 
Just a view days ago, Mrs. Merkel was here again, this time with the French President.

The U-bahn Lift could be made overgrown with ivy. The ivy could be planted in planters. Easy to care for...

The odd corner of the Schinkel Academy was a learning project for the local stone masons students. 
Them students build that corner for free under supervision. The materials they used 
where needed for learning anyway and just left standing by the school, the college. 
The Federal Government, or short called BUND supports the rebuild and money is in place.
The city is against it. Comes down the the State of Berlin. But that state has "no use" for 
extra space. The BUND is now offering using it after rebuild.


----------



## The Eagle

*Ladies and gentlemen! 
May I present a little film about the sculptural work by Mr. a. Hoferick?
His studio made those three ton weighing statues:*

[MEDIA]




*Like promised, I like to answer this quote:*


nightscraper said:


> Are those side Windows acurately reconstructed? Or are those inner walls a modification?


*It will stay this way. Maybe they cover the inner stone with commercial banners. 
Here the way it used to be. Today it looks weird, agreed:*


*Today:*


----------



## The Eagle

*Please come and enjoy our dance of light and joy:*

















*The statues are three meters high!*


Thanks, Mantikor!


----------



## Tiaren

Short documentary about the colossal statues adorning Schlüterhof with English subtitles:


----------



## TM_Germany

Documentary about the palace / Humboldt Forum:


----------



## Mr Bricks

^^ Interesting, but at the same time amazing how these people are able to twist everything into something "problematic" (except their own ideology).


----------



## Darryl

The programming at the Humboldt Forum does seem to be all over the place. It's totally weird and confusing. Did they suggest that the celebrated British guy who ran the British Museum is now out of the project?


----------



## UmpireKing

I know I've already asked this, but why does the Berlin Palace have a modern facade on its east side? It's just like that glass dome on the Reichstag. It clashes with the rest of the building's style.


----------



## Tiaren

UmpireKing said:


> I know I've already asked this, but why does the Berlin Palace have a modern facade on its east side? It's just like that glass dome on the Reichstag. It clashes with the rest of the building's style.


It clashing *is* unfortunately the point.


----------



## UmpireKing

Tiaren said:


> It clashing *is* unfortunately the point.


Well, the eastern side of Berlin was part of a communist regime sooo...


----------



## Florio

UmpireKing said:


> I know I've already asked this, but why does the Berlin Palace have a modern facade on its east side? It's just like that glass dome on the Reichstag. It clashes with the rest of the building's style.


Well that glass dome is actually a masterpiece, so...


----------



## UmpireKing

Kinda off-topic, but why did they decide to go with a new dome for the Reichstag?


----------



## Florio

I think that they wanted a modern/historical symbol for Berlin. I think that they weren't sure about Berlin as a capital of a united Germany, correct me if i'm wrong, but i can understand the will to have a new Reichstag which would symbolize a modern Germany.


----------



## Darryl

I like the juxtaposition of modern/historical when done well. I think the glass pyramid at the Louvre and the glass dome on the Reichstag look great! I just don't like how it was done on the Stadtschloss. Anyways, it's pointless discussing it because it's said and done. The other three sides of the Stadtschloss (along with the courtyards) are so fantastic that the beauty and craftsmanship overshadows the small disappointment of the eastern facade. Just get that main cartouche up already.

I read that the Museumsinsel U-Bahn station opened finally to the public today! This central part of Berlin (Unter den Linden and the Museum Island) is FINALLY starting to come together and have an almost finished quality to it. It has been a long time coming.


----------



## Florio

Yes, the greatest problem of the modern side of the Stadtschloss imo is the fact that there isn't a "modern" facade, but only a bare version of the other three facades.


----------



## nightscraper

If they wanted a non-historical façade, they might have built a fourth neoclassical one, simplificated at least. Two birds with a stone.


----------



## Jalpasi

There is a modern facade for the same reason that this building is not called Stadtschloss but Humboldt Forum. This choice has to do with the history of Germany, and I believe it is wise. Not only wise, but inspiring.

Germany has dark pages in its history, and did a huge work to re-invent itself and become one of the most progressive democracies in the world. Of course the Stadtschloss has nothing to do with Germany's darkest chapter (nazism), still it is symbolic of an imperialist, non democratic era. In Paris that would no bother anyone, but Germans think differently. History has made them very sensitive to the meaning of monuments - specially in Berlin. Rebuilding 100% of the Stadtschloss, and calling it Stadtschloss, would not have fitted with Germany's current identity and I think a majority of Germans would not have felt comfortable.

Instead of recreating the Stadtschloss, they created the Humboldt Forum. A creation both rooted in history and modern. Yes the Humboldt Forum restores for Germany and the world some ancient architecture of great value, but it is also a modern creation, and a modern symbol.

Instead of paying tribute to any Prussian king, it is named after Alexander von Humboldt, who is the greatest German naturalist, scientist and thinker, a man who fought for human rights, shaped our current vision of nature, and who even predicted climate change 200 years ago.

Perhaps the modern facade could have been more beautiful - although the exercice would have been tricky for any architect. But I think the gesture of bridging eras and generating new symbolism and meaning, is to be applauded.


----------



## Florio

Jalpasi said:


> There is a modern facade for the same reason that this building is not called Stadtschloss but Humboldt Forum. This choice has to do with the history of Germany, and I believe it is wise. Not only wise, but inspiring.
> 
> Germany has dark pages in its history, and did a huge work to re-invent itself and become one of the most progressive democracies in the world. Of course the Stadtschloss has nothing to do with Germany's darkest chapter (nazism), still it is symbolic of an imperialist, non democratic era. In Paris that would no bother anyone, but Germans think differently. History has made them very sensitive to the meaning of monuments - specially in Berlin. Rebuilding 100% of the Stadtschloss, and calling it Stadtschloss, would not have fitted with Germany's current identity and I think a majority of Germans would not have felt comfortable.
> 
> Instead of recreating the Stadtschloss, they created the Humboldt Forum. A creation both rooted in history and modern. Yes the Humboldt Forum restores for Germany and the world some ancient architecture of great value, but it is also a modern creation, and a modern symbol.
> 
> Instead of paying tribute to any Prussian king, it is named after Alexander von Humboldt, who is the greatest German naturalist, scientist and thinker, a man who fought for human rights, shaped our current vision of nature, and who even predicted climate change 200 years ago.
> 
> Perhaps the modern facade could have been more beautiful - although the exercice would have been tricky for any architect. But I think the gesture of bridging eras and generating new symbolism and meaning, is to be applauded.


I didn't know von Humboldt's story, thank you for sharing it. I totally agree, and all of us have to give credit to Germany for the great nation they are now. In facts the only thing that i don't like about the modern facade is that they didn't risk (imo) with the design. A more particular facade would have been wonderful, but in every case this facade is far better than a fake neoclassic facade that didn't have ever been there!


----------



## UmpireKing

Jalpasi said:


> There is a modern facade for the same reason that this building is not called Stadtschloss but Humboldt Forum. This choice has to do with the history of Germany, and I believe it is wise. Not only wise, but inspiring.
> 
> Germany has dark pages in its history, and did a huge work to re-invent itself and become one of the most progressive democracies in the world. Of course the Stadtschloss has nothing to do with Germany's darkest chapter (nazism), still it is symbolic of an imperialist, non democratic era. In Paris that would no bother anyone, but Germans think differently. History has made them very sensitive to the meaning of monuments - specially in Berlin. Rebuilding 100% of the Stadtschloss, and calling it Stadtschloss, would not have fitted with Germany's current identity and I think a majority of Germans would not have felt comfortable.
> 
> Instead of recreating the Stadtschloss, they created the Humboldt Forum. A creation both rooted in history and modern. Yes the Humboldt Forum restores for Germany and the world some ancient architecture of great value, but it is also a modern creation, and a modern symbol.
> 
> Instead of paying tribute to any Prussian king, it is named after Alexander von Humboldt, who is the greatest German naturalist, scientist and thinker, a man who fought for human rights, shaped our current vision of nature, and who even predicted climate change 200 years ago.
> 
> Perhaps the modern facade could have been more beautiful - although the exercice would have been tricky for any architect. But I think the gesture of bridging eras and generating new symbolism and meaning, is to be applauded.


Let me guess, the reason why they didn't rebuild the Reichstag dome as it was because in hindsight, it was a symbol of the imperialism that led to the rise of Nazism?


----------



## Mr Bricks

Jalpasi said:


> Instead of paying tribute to any Prussian king, it is named after Alexander von Humboldt, who is the greatest German naturalist, scientist and thinker, a man who fought for human rights, shaped our current vision of nature, and who even predicted climate change 200 years ago.


Ironically, this is the only part that is in anyway ideological and directly related to power. Prussia and the Hohenzollerns are utterly irrelevant today, whereas creating a "Palace for the World" is seen as quite important. Only in the Global West anno 2021 would an irrelevant local dynasty be seen as "problematic" while building a world-encompassing forum (ironically also being the direct continuation of 19th century imperial ambitions) is considered as good and neutral. 

Also, you are confusing "most Germans" with those who are in power in Germany. The general population will no doubt see this as a beautiful building to look at and the return of a great local landmark. Nothing more nothing less.


----------



## Jalpasi

UmpireKing said:


> Let me guess, the reason why they didn't rebuild the Reichstag dome as it was because in hindsight, it was a symbol of the imperialism that led to the rise of Nazism?


The Reichstag did not have a very glorious past. Despised by Kaiser Wilhelm II, it was above all the symbol of the powerlessness of Parliament under the Weimar Empire and Republic, and its complete collapse under the nazis. It needed a fresh look to give reunified Germany a fresh start. And what a fresh look it got. Norman Foster's cupola is a masterpiece, and the Reichstag is the second most visited monument in Germany.


----------



## Jalpasi

Mr Bricks said:


> Ironically, this is the only part that is in anyway ideological and directly related to power. Prussia and the Hohenzollerns are utterly irrelevant today, whereas creating a "Palace for the World" is seen as quite important. Only in the Global West anno 2021 would an irrelevant local dynasty be seen as "problematic" while building a world-encompassing forum (ironically also being the direct continuation of 19th century imperial ambitions) is considered as good and neutral.
> 
> Also, you are confusing "most Germans" with those who are in power in Germany. The general population will no doubt see this as a beautiful building to look at and the return of a great local landmark. Nothing more nothing less.


That dynasty is very far from irrelevant in European history. And just so you know, "most Germans" are very, very aware of their history and attentive to symbols.


----------



## Darryl

Mr Bricks said:


> The general population will no doubt see this as a beautiful building to look at and the return of a great local landmark. Nothing more nothing less.


Yes! Exactly. It is a beautiful building. Period. Can we stop rehashing German history over and over again? I get so sick of the constant politics when it comes to reconstructions in Germany. It always gets brought up and rehashed ad nauseum. No one is glorifying imperialism. It's just a pretty building. Sheesh


----------



## Jalpasi

Darryl said:


> Yes! Exactly. It is a beautiful building. Period. Can we stop rehashing German history over and over again? I get so sick of the constant politics when it comes to reconstructions in Germany. It always gets brought up and rehashed ad nauseum. No one is glorifying imperialism. It's just a pretty building. Sheesh


But Darryl, I notice you are American. Even in a fairly young country like the US, there are growing debates about the meaning and adequacy of monuments and statues, right? So if that's even the case in the US, does it surprise you that the Germany with its complex history and identity has many important, legitimate debates about monuments?


----------



## Darryl

I oppose it in the US as well. History is history. You can't change it, you can only learn from it. Buildings and monuments need not be torn down. Leaving them standing doesn't mean you are glorifying or agreeing with the political climate during which they were built. It just allows us to see what was.


----------



## Darryl

...and like Mr. Bricks said, the majority know this and see it for what it is. A buliding, no more. It is the loud provocative minority that squeal and obsess over the politics.


----------



## JDewar

Florio said:


> Yes, the greatest problem of the modern side of the Stadtschloss imo is the fact that there isn't a "modern" facade, but only a bare version of the other three facades.


Whether or not one likes Franco Stella's modern facades, I think we should give him credit for the reconstruction of interior portals II, III, and IV. Without Mr. Stella, these beautiful portals would most likely have never been rebuilt. Their reconstruction was not included in the original bill that was passed by the government.


----------



## Florio

I didn't know, i'm glad about that!


----------



## The Eagle

*The castle was remodeled to look like this during the reign of King Joachim II. (1505 - 1571)



















The build was remodeled again starting 1540. The designers where Mr. Caspar Theiss and Mr. Kunz Buntschuh. The style was early German Renaissance...*








Thanks, Eisener Pirat, source is D. Bauverein.


----------



## The Eagle

JDewar said:


> Whether or not one likes Franco Stella's modern facades, I think we should give him credit for the reconstruction of interior portals II, III, and IV. Without Mr. Stella, these beautiful portals would most likely have never been rebuilt. Their reconstruction was not included in the original bill that was passed by the government.


Was Mr. Stella alone lobbing for that? Or did that idea came from Mr. Wilhelm von Boddien and his crew?
There are lots of people lobbing for more Schloss. The government had to slow them down, because people donated for particular projects, but the federal government would have had to finance the surroundings. Like a reconstruction in the middle would cost changes to the right and left, above and below. 
Also the users of the Schloss, the museums and the event pace management do not like to part with any more space than necessary. They are already short as it is...
I that note, I like to use this exsample:
The camber of commerce representing the state of Baden-Wuertenberg wanted to pay for the reconstruction of the Ritter Saal called hall. 35 Million would have been wired. The money was declined. That hall would have been right in the middle. of it all.
But the main staircase called "Giganten Treppe" has been prepared for re-construction.


----------



## The Eagle

*And here we have the next possible reconstruction in connection with the Stadt-Schloss:
The "Giganten Treppe". The Treppe was very flat rising. It is said that horses where able 
to climb up. That also caused the stairs to have a huge footprint!
Anyway, enough talking and more seeing:




*


----------



## nightscraper

Darryl said:


> ...and like Mr. Bricks said, the majority know this and see it for what it is. A buliding, no more. It is the loud provocative minority that squeal and obsess over the politics.


Wiewing it as only a beautyful building is also politics. Why rebuilding this beautyful building instead of other beautyful building?

Why building an Unity monument instead of the Whilhem Monument?


----------



## Jalpasi

Darryl said:


> I oppose it in the US as well. History is history. You can't change it, you can only learn from it. Buildings and monuments need not be torn down. Leaving them standing doesn't mean you are glorifying or agreeing with the political climate during which they were built. It just allows us to see what was.


I agree, monuments should not be destroyed just because the perspective on history has evolved. But reconstruction is different, it is normal it generate debates. 

If Mount Rushmore has been destroyed in WWII, and if it was now proposed to recreate it, you can be sure there would be a debate, because 1) that mount is an ancient holy land of native Americans, 2) some presidents represented there were slave owners. 

You are right, the Stadtschloss is a very pretty building. But in Europe we have our own weight of history, and our own debates, and these don't go away just because a building is pretty!


----------



## TM_Germany

nightscraper said:


> Wiewing it as only a beautyful building is also politics. Why rebuilding this beautyful building instead of other beautyful building?
> 
> Why building an Unity monument instead of the Whilhem Monument?


Because modern architecture fails to create beautiful buildings that can fit in well into historical areas. The Humboldt Forum was mostly rebuilt because it heals a gaping wound in the most historical area of Berlin, a modern building would have just cemented that wound forever.


----------



## UmpireKing

Speaking of modern architecture, remember that parliament that was built by the East German government in the Berlin Palace's place after it was destroyed?


----------



## TM_Germany

^^ Thanks for making my point.


----------



## lanadelrey

Apparently the museum inside wants to cover up the bible quote around the cupola and replace it with quotes from the german law


----------



## Mr Bricks

^Really? Any more info on this?


----------



## TM_Germany

Apparently they want to use LEDs or some such to display a Grundgesetz article on top of the inscription at night. The inscription will still be there and visible during the day. Pretty convoluted if you ask me, but also not terrible.

Here is a German article about it








Berliner Humboldt-Forum ändert Spruchband auf Schlosskuppel


Die Kuppel-Inschrift markiert einen christlichen Herrschaftsanspruch. Nach viel Kritik soll das Spruchband nun geändert werden.




www.berliner-zeitung.de


----------



## Mr Bricks

This is funny on so many levels. First of all the idea of universal human rights is a secularized version of the Christian idea that the whole world should submit to it. Secondly, why are people so nervous about displaying symbols which hold no power anymore while symbols of real active power never seem to be a problem.


----------



## nightscraper

Power gonna demonstrate.


----------



## droneriot

They gotta find extra things to do in case there are some friends of members of parliament who didn't get a contract to work on the thing yet.


----------



## The Eagle

*I got pictures! Who wants some?

The square in front gets done. Took longer, because of the new 
U-Bahn station and the Memorial of 1990, two other projects:

























*
Thanks, Mantikor!


----------



## The Eagle

*We have good news from Berlin: 
One of us, Mrs. Petra Kahlfeld is replacing Mrs. Regula Luescher in 
the so called position as "Bau Director" of Berlin.
Architect herself, She and her husband specialized in neo Traditional 
construction. Further more: Inside design them two also do.
They even designed their own door handle design and have their 
own lamp designs. 
She is also responsible for pushing the baroque theme in downtown 
Potsdam. Anyway, here is Mrs. Petra Kahlfeld to the left:









the quote on the upper left corner is hers and says:
"Why reinvent the wheel?"

The times could go back to the good times of Mr. Hans Stimmann!
Mr. Stimmann was in charge in the 90`s and 2000`s and did a lot to help
Belin getting up on its legs.*


----------



## The Eagle

*Here an idea what we are talking about. Mrs. Luescher
tried to sabotage the Schloss by making the building look like 
a alien. That looks like this:


















The Stadtschloss, aka Humbold Forum on the right hand side. An event and museum space.
Straight the ministry of exterior. On the left the DDR chamber of Cabinet and used to be Germany`s white 
House from 1998 to 2002 under Chancellor Schroeder. The old building cut of on the very left
is the former Horse Stables. Used for his majesties cars as well. Today mostly used as 
Library of the city of Berlin and the front seen here is used by an music school. 
Parts of the roof are still missing since the war:*









*What I try to say is this: 
To make the Humbold Forum look as not loved, Mrs. Luescher has this disaster made:
Ugly light fixtures, man hole covers in the ground, ugly furniture.
Here an example of how to do it better. 
This is Paris. Versailles of course. Note the much better pavement:









Or here Michael wing at the Wiener Hofburg in Vienna:









Or here by contrast the Stadtschloss in the German city of Braunschweig. 
This building is also a recent reconstruction, by the way.
No garbage container, no crazy light tower. This is how to do it
if you like to keep the design simple:









Now, we have Mrs. Kahlfeld in Charge. 
This we might get sooner than we foght:
The fountain from Mr. Begas. Needs to be relocated. 
Without water currently. Needs fixing.









Here with the fountain:









Mrs. Kahlfeld also wnats to rebuild this:
The "Bau-akademie":









She and her husband tried to get the job for the reconstruction.

and by the way: The Fountain relocation and Bau-akademie reconstruction have been already 
paid for by the federal government. The city of Berlin refused to take the funding!*


----------



## The Eagle

*To make it clear: Mrs. Kahlfeld did not get her job from the Political left.
Someone pointed out to me that "the left" can not be "that bad"
and this is proof. The left is not refusing traditional architecture. 
I do not know how "that bad" the left is, but I can assure you that the 
left did not wanted Mrs. Kahlfeld.
The left is part of an coalition here in Berlin. "The left" demanded 
a very powerful position in finances. The "democrats" demanded
in return 20 positions more for them. At the end, the democrats became
15 more positions and Mrs. Kahlfeld is one of them. 
On social media, Mrs. Kahlfeld is already getting insulted on mass.
Architects are already rallying a list of signatures to get her removed 
from her job before she is even sworn in. Just saying. That is Berlin.

Here some night views:


















And a little bonus:







*
Thanks, Matikor!


----------



## Darryl

The Eagle said:


> *On social media, Mrs. Kahlfeld is already getting insulted on mass.
> Architects are already rallying a list of signatures to get her removed
> from her job before she is even sworn in. Just saying. That is Berlin.*


Really? Unbelievable. Why? Because she might make Berlin pretty? Heaven forbid


----------



## TM_Germany

Darryl said:


> Really? Unbelievable. Why? Because she might make Berlin pretty? Heaven forbid


"Getting insulted on mass" means about 40 comments on social media and traditional publications and I tried to find a signature collection but couldn't find one. It's clear that some activists and modernists are very unhappy about her, but let's keep things in perspective.

Merry Christmas everyone, let's hope that everything will turn out for the better.


----------



## lanadelrey

TM_Germany said:


> "Getting insulted on mass" means about 40 comments on social media and traditional publications and I tried to find a signature collection but couldn't find one. It's clear that some activists and modernists are very unhappy about her, but let's keep things in perspective.
> 
> Merry Christmas everyone, let's hope that everything will turn out for the better.


while i agree that i wouldn't say she's getting spammed by people online, it's true that there's people like architects and city planners (neo-modernists) that keep pushing the narrative that she's going to turn berlin in some sort of right wing architectural hotspot of disneyland villas (right wing disneyland i guess).

They made a press statement asking for an immediate removal of her position as the Senatsbaudirektorin (i guess these are the signatures someone was talking about)





News


ARCH+ ist die führende diskursive Zeitschrift für Architektur und Urbanismus. ARCH+ untersucht vierteljährlich die kulturellen und politischen Rahmenbedingungen der Raumproduktion mit einer umfassenden, monothematischen Ausgabe.




archplus.net


----------



## TM_Germany

lanadelrey said:


> while i agree that i wouldn't say she's getting spammed by people online, it's true that there's people like architects and city planners (neo-modernists) that keep pushing the narrative that she's going to turn berlin in some sort of right wing architectural hotspot of disneyland villas (right wing disneyland i guess).
> 
> They made a press statement asking for an immediate removal of her position as the Senatsbaudirektorin (i guess these are the signatures someone was talking about)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News
> 
> 
> ARCH+ ist die führende diskursive Zeitschrift für Architektur und Urbanismus. ARCH+ untersucht vierteljährlich die kulturellen und politischen Rahmenbedingungen der Raumproduktion mit einer umfassenden, monothematischen Ausgabe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> archplus.net



Yeah, Arch+ is terrible.


----------



## lanadelrey

TM_Germany said:


> Yeah, Arch+ is terrible.


yeah they're a very loud very vocal small minority. i wouldn't say the majority of germans is against her or that she's getting spammed by masses bc i doubt most people care about her and her position in berlin, it's just very vocal people like the arch+ group.


----------



## Tiaren

About the surroundings of the Palace: I think it is actually not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be. 
First of all, we can call ourselves lucky that they chose to pave everything in the traditional Berlin style:










And not in some Berlin atypical, modern style.
We are also very lucky that they opted for the beautiful, historic and very expensive Schupmann candelabras to line the streets around the Palace:










That was not a given and modern lamp posts were in the discussion too.

Last but not least, I think its okay for city squares to lack greenery. Pre 19th century city squares usually lacked trees and grass. Many beautiful, historic French, Italian or Spanish city squares lack greenery too.

Now that Frau Kahlfeld is the new senate building director we can improve upon that. The chances for the Neptune Fountain (or a copy) and the Rossebändiger (Horse Restrainers) look a lot better all of a sudden.


----------



## The Eagle

* Happy New Year!








picture shows the so called "Ober baum bruecke", located in Berlin*


----------



## nightscraper

Is there some iconic clock to celebrate the new year?


----------



## marshalca

Some people here are repeating ad nauseam the comparison of this building with an amusement park.

Here there are people who suggest that Berlin is becoming Disneyland because they are rebuilding old buildings, well, I totally disagree, among other things because practically all of Europe is rebuilt after the two world wars, even bridges and buildings of other cities that seem to be centuries old are simple copies or reconstructions in the 50s and 60s, the only difference is that they were rebuilt quickly after the war and now we no longer remember. Almost the whole city of Budapest is an example.
The reflection because some events leave us without part of our environment we have to succumb to live without it?
It is absurd to rebuild Egypt a vanished civilization and culture, but the European society and culture still exists, why not keep everything related to what we are?

It can be aesthetically similar to Disneyland and a reconstruction. But only aesthetically, only the shell but they are completely different things. In this confusion can only fall someone materialistic who only sees the skin or the facade of what surrounds him but does not go beyond it.
Let's not confuse Disneyland are parks inspired in Europe built new without a past and without a base, just to recreate something nice. To build a building that has existed is to rebuild and in some cases to restore. There is a base, a reason and a why, and very importantly an identity and a history. It is completely different.


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## marshalca

The Eagle said:


> *What I try to say is this:
> To make the Humbold Forum look as not loved, Mrs. Luescher has this disaster made:
> Ugly light fixtures, man hole covers in the ground, ugly furniture.
> Here an example of how to do it better.
> This is Paris. Versailles of course. Note the much better pavement:
> View attachment 2528262
> 
> 
> Or here Michael wing at the Wiener Hofburg in Vienna:
> View attachment 2528265
> 
> 
> Or here by contrast the Stadtschloss in the German city of Braunschweig.
> This building is also a recent reconstruction, by the way.
> No garbage container, no crazy light tower. This is how to do it
> if you like to keep the design simple:
> View attachment 2528277
> *


Regarding the comparisons you have made of the urban reforms around these buildings, Versailles, the royal palace of Vienna seem to me very unfortunate, I do not know to what extent you take into account the context and use, it seems that the only important thing is the aesthetics without taking into account anything else.
Regarding Versailles, first of all it is not a street, it is a courtyard inside the palace, and they have decided to turn it into a place strictly for transit, that is to say a space where the only thing you do is to pass from the public area of the street to the access of the building. What is around humboldt forum are streets and as such must have a street furniture and of course everything that entails an urban street such as the issue of manhole covers....
Regarding Vienna, if you know the square in the photo, you will know that it is a very small space (despite the photo) surrounded and suffocated by half-height buildings and with a hole with ruins in the middle of the square that occupy almost all the space. It is normal that it has no furniture, there is no space to put it either.
Regarding the last example, it is a cold, sterile square full of granite, where you don't feel like staying, where you don't feel like spending any time. It is not the ideal thing for urban streets, where you have to or That is what you are looking for in a city streets?


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## * Dark Cathedral *

Berliner Dom still looks awesome considering losing the original cupola and 4 spires . Curious if it's true that the Berlin Cathedral Building Society is still pushing forward to rebuild the northern wing of the *Denkmalskirche* (Memorial Church) The original was demolished in 1975 .


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## The Eagle

*Let us update the Unification memorial, Ladies and Gentlemen:

Is it just me, or is the castle changing colors in every light?









The U-Bahn entrance is finished:









Trees are appearing! Like in the cinderella story!
Only thing missing is are the dancing Tea cups!









Another tree appeared here:


















Century old posts. They where used hundreds of years ago to stabilize the ground.
This had to be done in many places here in Berlin:









Some cartouches have still stonework missing:







*
Thank you, Matikor!


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## * Dark Cathedral *

*There were discussions about bringing back the Horse Tamer denkmals from Kleist Park to the portal IV location.*


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## Steve Gatlin

* Dark Cathedral * said:


> *There were discussions about bringing back the Horse Tamer denkmals from Kleist Park to the portal IV location.*


There was also a commitment to rebuild the Bauakademie and yet the plot where it was to rise sits empty (except for that mockup corner). Does anyone in Berlin who visits this site know what has happened to prevent the rebuilding of such a marvelous building?


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## Tiaren

Steve Gatlin said:


> There was also a commitment to rebuild the Bauakademie and yet the plot where it was to rise sits empty (except for that mockup corner). Does anyone in Berlin who visits this site know what has happened to prevent the rebuilding of such a marvelous building?


All the time there is something delaying it and then there are very long pauses of discussion about it. And not to forget, there are also forces which don't want the Bauakademie, even though it was a marvel of architecture and even though it literally stands on Schinkelplatz, to be originally reconstructed in Schinkel's design. They want something modern. So while waiting for years and years for something to finally happen, it's also a nail-biter if it will be an original reconstruction.
The entire thing is a disgrace, really, like so much in Berlin. Soon the Palace and the surrounding area will be *finally *finished after decades, including the Einheitsdenkmal, but the site of the Bauakademie will remain unfinished for years to come...


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## droneriot

Never complaining about updates but The Eagle you should have made them two weeks later, trees really exploded from barren depression to lush green in that time.


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## glksc

erbse said:


> Berlin City Palace by Tobias Seeliger, auf Flickr
> 
> Berlin - Stadtschloss - ohne Bauzaun by micharl_foto, auf Flickr
> 
> 2021-12-FL-2112 Humboldforum Berlin-25 by ACME, auf Flickr
> 
> 2021-12-FL-2112 Humboldforum Berlin-28 by ACME, auf Flickr
> 
> 2021-12-FL-2112 Humboldforum Berlin-10-1 by ACME, auf Flickr
> 
> 2021-12-FL-2112 Humboldforum Berlin-37 by ACME, auf Flickr
> 
> 2021-12-FL-2112 Humboldforum Berlin-36 by ACME, auf Flickr


Insanely beautiful, apart from the horrible concrete façade.

Hopefully one day that façade gets corrected to match the rest of the beautiful building. What a moronic idea to have built that façade like that.


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## Darryl

What is the progress on the west and western half of the north plaza? Is the Einheitsdenkmal almost finished? Is everything at least paved at this point or is it still all torn up and dirt? Will the staircase to the riverfront be done or not? What about the main cartouche? They said they'd put that up months ago. So much delay, so many questions, this project is no longer talked about/updated.


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## Darryl

Would be so nice at the very least to have the main facade finished.


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## * Dark Cathedral *

_*Not a fan of the winning design for the Einheitsdenkmal. It looks like a leftover from a shipping junkyard. Wish the Kaiser Wilhelm denkmal would be resurrected but I can understand why some people wouldn't want that. Yet the Colonnades is another matter for it would balance out the space in front of the *_*Berliner Schloss.*


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## Fudgis

Yes I would have liked to have seen the colonnades of the Nationaldenkmal resurrected, especially as it seems there was some support for doing this at one stage. It would have balanced the facade as beautifully as it does in old photos and made sense of the surviving plinth of the monument, along with its mosaic floors which could have been restored to view.

It would also have been interesting to have the surviving sculptures reused too, bringing back the four lions from the Zoo with the remaining eagle, but I also appreciate why the monument in its original form stirred opposition so would have been happy with just the surrounding structure returning,

This is a lost opportunity and sadly the Einheitsdenkmal will always be a reminder of this, at odds with a building so lovingly recreated (and as others have said previously, I am not against the proposal itself, just wish it could have found a more suitable location elsewhere, that way we could have had both a new monument and some sort of reconstruction more in keeping with the Palace).


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## * Dark Cathedral *

*Thanks, Fudgis for *_*your perspective!!!! I agree if the Einheitsdenkmal was in another location that would be ok. But having the Colonnades back would have been wonderful addition.*_


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## Fudgis

Thankyou, I totally agree! Part of me was wondering if there was a compromise solution whereby the colonnades could be actually reconstructed around the Einheitsdenkmal (which would thus take the place of the giant equestrian Kaiser Wilhelm). I'm not sure whether the dimensions of each would make such a co-existance feasible but I'm guessing it could have worked in theory.

Of course in such a scenario the contrasting styles of both newly built edifices would appear crazily opposed to most, but then that is what we're getting anyway with regards to how it 'relates' to the facade of the palace!

I can dream, as I like to think there could still be room around the Einheitsdenkmal to add the colonnades at a later date, if by some miracle there was ever enough support!


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## * Dark Cathedral *

_*I was looking at multiple photos of the Einheitsdenkmal and the former Kaiser Wilhelm colonnades. Depending on the length it could be feasible that there would be enough room for the colonnades. And of course, adding the two Quadriga denkmals on each end would look *_*amazing!!*


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## Steve Gatlin

* Dark Cathedral * said:


> _*I was looking at multiple photos of the Einheitsdenkmal and the former Kaiser Wilhelm colonnades. Depending on the length it could be feasible that there would be enough room for the colonnades. And of course, adding the two Quadriga denkmals on each end would look *_*amazing!!*


To be realistic though, none of the Kaiser Wilhelm monument will ever be restored to that spot. The politics and post WWII attitude of Berlin is not keen to restore monuments to royalty. I'm personally almost cringing as I wait to see the Einheitsdenkmal when it's finally put into place. From the images I've seen, it looks too whimsical to be a monument of any kind. We'll see...


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## Darryl

They should have kept the webcams up until the project is fully finished. Then I wouldn't have to beg people for updates on here. This project has turned into another BER.


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## * Dark Cathedral *

*Steve, I understand your point about the political attitude in Berlin towards the rebuilding the entire Kaiser Wilhelm structure. But the colonnades might be the exception here.... Sorry just drooling at the thought of it being rebuilt.*


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## Tiaren

Reconstruction of Portal IV commences:









by Mantikor









By Mantikor

It's going to be very beautiful:










Portal V is in the making too, but work on it will only commence when Portal IV is finished. They don't want two portals closed due to contruction at once.


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## * Dark Cathedral *

*Look at that ceiling !!!!!*


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## Octosteel

Wow, I feel like I first saw this project in the 2010s. I used to follow it religiously and then like eight or so years ago, I stopped following. Can't believe it's taken this long for it to finish! Shame they kept the concrete facade but hopefully this will lead to more reconstructions!


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## Darryl

I think contemporary architecture CAN be elegant, good-looking, interesting, and ambitious but you just don't see that a lot in Berlin. Look at the Paris thread. Paris is a city that demands high aesthetic standards even from new buildings built in modern styles. Berlin seems to have an aversion to decoration and builds only for function. Paris spends money on facade details that don't contribute at all to the function of the building, but that give the building an interesting look from the outside. So in ways I think it is a "German thing" although there are obviously many other places all around the world (including France) that build horribly ugly contemporary buildings too.


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## Darryl

deleted


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## Tiaren

Darryl said:


> I will use this as a small random example. I didn't go digging for it. It's not super amazingly outstanding, but it is a good example because it just happens to be the very latest thing put into their thread just two hours ago. It is a simple boxy contemporary building, but that facade is one you would not find easily in Berlin. Buildings just look better there (even modern ones). It's frustrating that Berlin can't seem to follow suit.


First of all, I and several others explained to you already that you can get a warped view of what is and what is not going on in Berlin construction-wise if you just go by the activity in Berlin's construction thread here, which is apart from one regular contributor pretty dead. And they said themselves that they lack information and updates of most Berlin projects. So what you see is mostly the same projects over and over again. If those happen to be boring and ugly, you sure can get the feeling that this is all that is being built in Berlin, but it is not necessarily the truth.

Regarding Paris, I didn't have to look long to find also this in its construction thread:



>


And here we have a current Berlin project:



























Link: FKU 38 | Projects / Nöfer Architekten

The suggestion that Berliner/German architects are in general worse than elsewhere is nonsense, sorry.
I mean, if you are into contemporary architecture and city planning, Hamburg's Hafen City has some of the best in the world (literally, as it won countless international awards already):
HAMBURG | HafenCity - HarbourCity | U/C

But now let's get back to the actual topic, the Berliner Schloss. The reconstruction of one of the portals is moving forward, while people can still pass through it:




























Images taken by Mantikor: Berliner Schloss - Architekturforum Architectura Pro Homine


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## Darryl

Tiaren said:


> First of all, I and several others explained to you already that you can get a warped view of what is and what is not going on in Berlin construction-wise if you just go by the activity in Berlin's construction thread here, which is apart from one regular contributor pretty dead. And they said themselves that they lack information and updates of most Berlin projects. So what you see is mostly the same projects over and over again. If those happen to be boring and ugly, you sure can get the feeling that this is all that is being built in Berlin, but it is not necessarily the truth.


Yes Tiaren, I do remember that explanation and appreciate it. That doesn't convince me however that there are hordes of stellar gorgeous projects being implemented in Berlin that Maxxe doesn't have info on and can't post. There are some Berlin projects I do like, and one of them is the nice project you mentioned from Noefer which I agree is very nice and has been posted by Maxxe as well. Almost anything by Noefer (sorry I don't know how to make umlauts on my keyboard) I've seen is quite nice actually. I do understand your point though that not all projects are represented in the Berlin thread, and that only the best projects are presented in the Paris thread, so impressions can get skewed. I have seen some ugly projects in Paris as well. Everything is not totally black and white. I still feel that Paris generally has a higher aesthetic standard to new builds than Berlin does. It is my opinion. You're welcome to not share it. Also, I'm surprised that you of all people are belaboring this point to me while you are one of the most critical posters of the beauty of Berlin projects (along with me lol).



Tiaren said:


> The suggestion that Berliner/German architects are in general worse than elsewhere is nonsense, sorry.
> I mean, if you are into contemporary architecture and city planning, Hamburg's Hafen City has some of the best in the world (literally, as it won countless international awards already):
> HAMBURG | HafenCity - HarbourCity | U/C


I wouldn't say Berliner/German architects, I would say projects being built in Berlin from any architect regardless of nationality. I for instance, have seen many nice beautiful contemporary projects/buildings in Frankfurt that are stunning and I have wished Berlin would choose projects of similar aesthetic value. Frankfurt has a beautiful skyline full of sleek high-quality contemporary architecture the likes of which I'd love to see Berlin build. Again, this is just my opinion, but it seems to me to be a Berlin thing. Berlin seems to have a look it's going for that doesn't appeal to me. They choose projects that are bland and boring in my opinion. This is not even true for the rest of Germany, just Berlin. Frankfurt and Hamburg are examples given by both of us. Hopefully maybe that all was a Regula Luescher thing, and now that "ding dong the witch is dead" perhaps the future holds some promise.


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## Tiaren

Beautiful visualization of the finished Palace and Gigantentreppe (Staircase of the Giants) that may hopefully someday be rebuilt too:


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## The Eagle

*Hello and nice to have you all back!

I like to present the current situation with the new unity memorial 
being build:









The foundation is finished, the stairs new:









On the left hand side you can see Germanies current Ministry of State. 
In the middle the finished corner of the Bau Akademie, from Schinkel:



























Picture taken inside looking out:







*
Pictures from Mantikor, thank you for them!


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## Fudgis

That visualisation of the Gigantentreppe is absolutely stunning! How wonderful it would be if there was enough will power (and more critically funding!) to bring that back some day. Such vivid digital recreations can only help this process, reminding everyone what we're still missing but how marvellous it would be to have it back again. 

Personally I'd like to see more of the major interiors recreated but I realise this isn't terribly realistic for the moment, I imagine that will be a task for future generations to consider. We can all dream though  

Also interesting to see the visualisation including the colonnades of the Nationaldenkmal and how well they can still work without the riot of sculpture that was originally added to them. It's a shame they can't be accommodated around the construction of the Unity Memorial in some form.


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## Tiaren

Fudgis said:


> That visualisation of the Gigantentreppe is absolutely stunning! How wonderful it would be if there was enough will power (and more critically funding!) to bring that back some day.


The very sad thing is, that there definitely is the will power and there is the donation money. I totally would expect Wilhelm von Boddien to be able to collect all the money necessary for the Gigantentreppe in a couple years, he managed to do that with the 105 million for the facades and dome and now additional 13 million for statues and the reconstruction of the portal passageways. The Palace association as well as the public is fully on board, in will power and with their wallets.
The *BIG *issue is: The Humboldt-Forum Association, that is sitting right inside Berlin Palace, and that runs everything, has become an outright adversary of the Palace association. There's a lot of bad blood between them, even now visible in public. The Humboldt-Forum does not at all like the palace building in which they are residing and they try to sabotage further reconstruction and the work of the Palace association in any way they can. They even plan to kick the Palace association out of the palace at the end of 2023. They for now gave them some small space to exist and to do their work, they aren't allowed to go anywhere else in the building to do some promotion though, but without even asking if they want to keep on renting the space they sent them a letter that they're out after 2023. They kick out the people that gave them this building to even operate!


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## Fudgis

That's shocking to hear, talk about biting the hand that feeds them! 

The situation doesn't sound very encouraging, and sadly I can see why there would be a conflict of interests here. No doubt the Humboldt Forum Association is more focussed on the collections rather than the building, which is perhaps not as 'purpose built' for museum display as they might wish with a layout largely dictated by its previous incarnation as a royal palace. And of course any further interior reconstructions will reduce their working / display space further, so I had been concerned all along that such proposals would be complicated as a result. An even greater pity if the money and will power are actually there!

It doesn't sound like we'll see any interior reconstructions soon then. The only hope I can see in this is that if the Humboldt Forum Association is already that frustrated with the rebuilt Schloss perhaps in time they might ultimately relocate and clear the path for a more flexible use or restoration? Couldn't see that happening for some years though, such a pity a few recreated 'museum rooms' couldn't eventually be included in the current Forum. I guess curators prefer a carte blanche with what happens inside.


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## Darryl

It's like my country now. Anything created by white people, or that can be traced back in any way to colonialism or imperialism is evil and shall be destroyed.


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## Tiaren

The beautiful reliefs will return any moment (or two):









Picture taken by Mantikor: Berliner Schloss - Architekturforum Architectura Pro Homine


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## Steve Gatlin

Tiaren said:


> The beautiful reliefs will return any moment (or two):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Picture taken by Mantikor: Berliner Schloss - Architekturforum Architectura Pro Homine


The metal plates and screws(?) make me very curious as to how the relief panels with be affixed into the frame.


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## The Eagle

Tiaren said:


> The very sad thing is, that there definitely is the will power and there is the donation money. I totally would expect Wilhelm von Boddien to be able to collect all the money necessary for the Gigantentreppe in a couple years, he managed to do that with the 105 million for the facades and dome and now additional 13 million for statues and the reconstruction of the portal passageways. The Palace association as well as the public is fully on board, in will power and with their wallets.
> The *BIG *issue is: The Humboldt-Forum Association, that is sitting right inside Berlin Palace, and that runs everything, has become an outright adversary of the Palace association. There's a lot of bad blood between them, even now visible in public. The Humboldt-Forum does not at all like the palace building in which they are residing and they try to sabotage further reconstruction and the work of the Palace association in any way they can. They even plan to kick the Palace association out of the palace at the end of 2023. They for now gave them some small space to exist and to do their work, they aren't allowed to go anywhere else in the building to do some promotion though, but without even asking if they want to keep on renting the space they sent them a letter that they're out after 2023. They kick out the people that gave them this building to even operate!


Greeting Tiaren!
You should have not told people this. It is so embarrassing. 
What Germany usually does backfired: They wanted to meet in the middle. 
So, castle fans where given the order of Parliament to reconstruct the place
and the not so fans where ordered to use the inside, too. 
That backfired. The inside users took control and oppose the rebuild.
Example: The pro reconstruction group is not even allowed to hand out donation asking flyers 
to visitors visiting the building inside. 

This is all verified. The reconstruction group has a monthly newsletter. 
It is all in there. Now, that the building stands, they just published all they had on their mind 
to the public. 



Fudgis said:


> That's shocking to hear, talk about biting the hand that feeds them!
> 
> The situation doesn't sound very encouraging, and sadly I can see why there would be a conflict of interests here. No doubt the Humboldt Forum Association is more focussed on the collections rather than the building, which is perhaps not as 'purpose built' for museum display as they might wish with a layout largely dictated by its previous incarnation as a royal palace. And of course any further interior reconstructions will reduce their working / display space further, so I had been concerned all along that such proposals would be complicated as a result. An even greater pity if the money and will power are actually there!
> 
> It doesn't sound like we'll see any interior reconstructions soon then. The only hope I can see in this is that if the Humboldt Forum Association is already that frustrated with the rebuilt Schloss perhaps in time they might ultimately relocate and clear the path for a more flexible use or restoration? Couldn't see that happening for some years though, such a pity a few recreated 'museum rooms' couldn't eventually be included in the current Forum. I guess curators prefer a carte blanche with what happens inside.


Hello Fudgis! Always like to hear from you!
The inside of the Humbold Forum is not divided like the old palace. 
The inside blueprint is functional for todays use. After all,
this building would have been build anyway. To complete the Museum Island
with Asia, Oceania and Africa. We just would have gotten a modern building here
or elsewhere. This is what people don`t understand: The taxpayer did not save a dime!

One more thing: the "Giganten Treppe" Staircase is included in the contract. If money for it
gets donated, we see it come back. The rest will not.
The Ritter Saal for example was declined years ago. The chambers of commerce 
of the State of Baden Württemberg, one of Germanys 16 States offered the complete 
amount of money. One of the most expansive halls. I think more than 20 Million total.
All They demanded was to be commemorated for the donation. 
Big German Cooperation's with HQ in BW would have donated Millions like pennies.
They have more than 50 companies making more than a billion a year as members.
aight of them are in the worlds Top 100. They all wanted to participate. 
Peanuts for them. Like EnBW, Stihl, Mecedes-Benz, Kaercher, Bosch and so on...
Two or Three insurance companies too. The big ones. The ones American 
Insurance Companies place their own insurance with. Like Munich Re. (from Bavaria.)
They insured the insurer for cases like 9/11 back in New York in 2001. 
All declined...

but it was turned down...


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## * Dark Cathedral *

So, why can't a stripped-down version or full version of the colonnades be rebuilt around the Unity memorial ?? Looks like there would be enough space between them.


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## The Eagle

This unity memorial celebrating 1990 sits on the spot of the former 
unity memorial celebrating the unification of 1871. 
Unfortunately the old one was called Kaiser Wilhelm reunification memorial.
The name was not helping...
The idea was to plot the new one on the same spot as the old one,
even if the location is off, to prevent the old one from coming back. 
This was communicated so by Mr. Wolfgang Thierse, member of federal 
Parliament and involved by the decision making. 
But the same man supported the Stadt Schloss coming back. 

After that a massive battle broke out. The federal government
wanted the old memorial back and the new one on its proper place,
the place where the reunification was decided upon. 
The government of the State of Berlin wanted the new memorial right here.

I think we might get at least the columns back one day.
After all, the former communist party is no longer in the coalition.
Madame Luescher from Switzerland, her boss and the boss of her boss 
where all employees of the resort City design, run by the communists. 
The communists lost the last election, got kicked out of the coalition and the 
resort is now run by the social democrats. All new staff with different views.
We might get lucky.


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## Fudgis

Hi Eagle, your posts always brighten my day! And this is no exception, as despite the depressing impasse you've at least given me some hope there we may yet see the Gigantantreppe rise again 

How frustrating though for the rest, to think what the possibilities were; if I could have chosen one room to bring back it would have most likely been the Ritter Saal, oh to think that donors were ready and willing!  I never thought such a thing would be possible given the expense, but we came that close!

I still cling to the hope that perhaps if we get one room back there could in the long term future be a domino effect and others could follow given the interest and support this would generate. far fetched and misplaced optimism perhaps on my part, but just such a scheme is about to commence at the Royal Palace in Budapest, so maybe not impossible at some future stage. There were so many stunning interiors worthy of reconstruction though, and most far more ornate than the lost interiors of the Buda palace.

Clearly too much red tape to deal with at present then, these pro and anti reconstruction forces locked in battle with the latter party assuming full control inside the Humboldt Forum. We can only hope the mood mellows once the dust has settled and people see what this project has achieved / can achieve for the marvel it is.


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## The Eagle

*Something of more interest!
The former imperial horse stables to the left in dark and Mr. Stella`s river side of the 
former Stadt Schloss right behind:









To the right a mix of pre war buildings mixed with DDR 1980`s Platten (factory made), made to look 
like traditional buildings. This quarter was build to celebrate Berlins 750th birthday.
The DDR also used relocated old buildings.
This quarter is called Nikolai Quarter:









Straight behind comes the Cathedral:*


















*Here the situation in 1690. The Schloss still in Renaissance style. 
Remodeling into Baroque would start very soon after:









Also very interesting. In 1768 the remaining Renaissance wing was run down very much so.
The court spend much time in the capitol Koenigsberg and Potsdam 
and this wing was supposed to be remodeled anyway, so no maintenance was 
conducted:







*
thank you, Mantikor!


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## JDewar

Fudgis said:


> Hi Eagle, your posts always brighten my day! And this is no exception, as despite the depressing impasse you've at least given me some hope there we may yet see the Gigantantreppe rise again
> 
> How frustrating though for the rest, to think what the possibilities were; if I could have chosen one room to bring back it would have most likely been the Ritter Saal, oh to think that donors were ready and willing!  I never thought such a thing would be possible given the expense, but we came that close!
> 
> I still cling to the hope that perhaps if we get one room back there could in the long term future be a domino effect and others could follow given the interest and support this would generate. far fetched and misplaced optimism perhaps on my part, but just such a scheme is about to commence at the Royal Palace in Budapest, so maybe not impossible at some future stage. There were so many stunning interiors worthy of reconstruction though, and most far more more ornate than the lost interiors of the Buda palace.
> 
> Clearly too much red tape to deal with at present then, these pro and anti reconstruction forces locked in battle with the latter party assuming full control inside the Humboldt Forum. We can only hope the mood mellows once the dust has settled and people see what this project has achieved / can achieve for the marvel it is.


If they eventually do start a campaign to raise money to reconstruct the Gigantantreppe, I will certainly donate to this. How wonderful that would be! Regarding the tilting unity monument, I would have preferred a nice flower garden there. There’s already enough paving around the castle.


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## Tiaren

In the coming weeks the at this point almost finished reliefs will be installed on portal III:









Source: Zwei Bronzereliefs für das neue Berliner Schloss


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## Jalpasi

Tiaren said:


> In the coming weeks the at this point almost finished reliefs will be installed on portal III:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Zwei Bronzereliefs für das neue Berliner Schloss


I never realized these would be bronze, not stone. Wow, this will change the looks of the portal quite a bit!


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## Ioannes_

I don't understand my friend either, I think the reconstruction of the Royal Palace is the most beautiful architectural work I've followed on Skycrapercity. I dream of other reconstructions, such as The Crystal Palace in London. If it is true that in the future, the interior concept of the dome would have to be rehabilitated.


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## Prussian Königsberg

The inscriptions are being placed:








Thanks Mantikor! More pictures may be coming, depending on when I come back.


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## Prussian Königsberg




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## Prussian Königsberg




----------



## Prussian Königsberg

I hear the second one will placed sometime tomorrow morning at 8 Central European Standard Time, so like 2 in morning for me on the East Coast. This obviously means I won't post any pics of it as I will (hopefully) be asleep. So if anyone wants to snap a pic of them, please do!


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Prussian Königsberg said:


> I hear the second one will placed sometime tomorrow morning at 8 Central European Standard Time, so like 2 in morning for me on the East Coast. This obviously means I won't post any pics of it as I will (hopefully) be asleep. So if anyone wants to snap a pic of them, please do!


Wow! How wonderful is this? Now we all wait for the Great Cartouche to show up! When I first visited Berlin in 1987, this area was a parking lot, with the Palace of the Republic on the eastern end of the space. Erich Honecker must be flipping in his grave!


----------



## Tiaren

All reliefs are placed! 









Image by Babber: Berliner Schloss - Architekturforum Architectura Pro Homine


----------



## Tiaren

You cannot tell where the holes to hoist up and attach the reliefs were anymore. 


















Photos by Berliner Schloss - Architekturforum Architectura Pro Homine

Those dark spots on the script reliefs seem to be fingerprint grease.


----------



## The Eagle

*Pictures, I got more pictures:

This is the scene of 1688 commemorated in this plaque. 
The remodeling into baroque stile is decided upon:


















The Portal IV on the eastern side is moving slowly ahead:









Now I understand: The stucco/Putz/plaster now looks like real stone stacked 
one on top of the other! Like the real deal:









opposite columns:







*
Thanks Mantikor!


----------



## The Eagle

*and here an interesting picture 
about the light concept. The illumination 
of the Portal has been solved 
like this:









Here an example of Portal II during daylight:







*
Thank you Spreetunnel, APH Forum for your help!


----------



## The Eagle

*The other plaque commemorates the first castle build beginning 
1443. Did you know that Berlin was founded originally as a 
republican city state? The moving of a member of aristocracy 
was deeply disliked and criticized at first. But with power 
came money and criticism ended. Anyway, 
the first castle gets approved of in 1443:









*



















*One plaque is kept in Dutch/German, because that is the language that was 
spoken all over northern Germany all the way into today Poland.

The other one in Latin, to represent the change and slow development 
into royalty:*









Mantikor


----------



## Jalpasi

Very interesting, thank you The Eagle for providing these explanations.


----------



## The Eagle

*The reunification memorial celebrating 1990 is on its way:














































Look at the dark parts: The dark parts, like the left angel and the right hand capital on the column:







*
Thanks, Mantikor!


----------



## Fudgis

Those dark parts of the portal represent the last bits of 'DNA' of the old Stadtschloss, but I can't help feeling there's more still to recover out there that could have also been reused in the reconstruction. More was clearly saved prior to the demolition, but what on earth happened to the rest of the salvaged material?

The main facade of the Eosander Portal appears to have survived the war surprisingly well, give or take a few inevitable cuts and bruises. Nearly all the external sculptural elements remained, and it seemed were even removed from the facade before it was dynamited. Note the condition below of the main portal and it's ornamentation immediately after the War.
















It's also interesting that one damaged column has been given a temporary replacement to prevent further collapse, so obviously there was some initial hope of a reprieve for the building.

And then the scaffolding went up; it must have looked like good news at first..








This was however purely a salvage operation to retrieve all the main decorative elements prior to the building's destruction. One might be tempted to think of this as purely material salvage for the bronze pieces (cartouche, plaques and inscriptions) but note how the stone reliefs above and the winged victory figures beside the arch have also been removed (unlike metal no scrap value in stone) though as they appear to have been rather brutally chiselled off we can only guess what state they were in by then (multiple pieces at best!).
















The intention then must surely have been to save these pieces but why then is there so little material worth reusing in the reconstruction?

As far as I've been able to deduce from one of the German sites it seems much material was stored away in a warehouse but was not looked after well (left vulnerable to the elements and vandals) and may have since been disposed of by burial (dumped like so much else of the original Schloss material). There seems to be little if any known record beyond this point.

But there is always that chance such pieces could one day resurface somewhere (or maybe someone has them in a forgotten corner without knowing their provenance). One should consider them damaged and currently lost, but not perhaps destroyed.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Fudgis said:


> Those dark parts of the portal represent the last bits of 'DNA' of the old Stadtschloss, but I can't help feeling there's more still to recover out there that could have also been reused in the reconstruction. More was clearly saved prior to the demolition, but what on earth happened to the rest of the salvaged material?
> 
> The main facade of the Eosander Portal appears to have survived the war surprisingly well, give or take a few inevitable cuts and bruises. Nearly all the external sculptural elements remained, and it seemed were even removed from the facade before it was dynamited. Note the condition below of the main portal and it's ornamentation immediately after the War.
> View attachment 3669368
> 
> View attachment 3669383
> 
> It's also interesting that one damaged column has been given a temporary replacement to prevent further collapse, so obviously there was some initial hope of a reprieve for the building.
> 
> And then the scaffolding went up; it must have looked like good news at first..
> View attachment 3669408
> 
> This was however purely a salvage operation to retrieve all the main decorative elements prior to the building's destruction. One might be tempted to think of this as purely material salvage for the bronze pieces (cartouche, plaques and inscriptions) but note how the stone reliefs above and the winged victory figures beside the arch have also been removed (unlike metal no scrap value in stone) though as they appear to have been rather brutally chiselled off we can only guess what state they were in by then (multiple pieces at best!).
> View attachment 3669417
> 
> View attachment 3669424
> 
> The intention then must surely have been to save these pieces but why then is there so little material worth reusing in the reconstruction?
> 
> As far as I've been able to deduce from one of the German sites it seems much material was stored away in a warehouse but was not looked after well (left vulnerable to the elements and vandals) and may have since been disposed of by burial (dumped like so much else of the original Schloss material). There seems to be little if any known record beyond this point.
> 
> But there is always that chance such pieces could one day resurface somewhere (or maybe someone has them in a forgotten corner without knowing their provenance). One should consider them damaged and currently lost, but not perhaps destroyed.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Judging by these photos, the Great Cartouche came through the bombing relatively unscathed. It would be an amazing find if the cartouche was found buried somewhere. More likely it was melted down and reused. Communism had a significant following immediately after the war, and artifacts representing royalty or religion were easier to dismiss as rubbish from the past and destroy. Considering the times, it's an attitude that made sense then (to some), but still a loss culturally from our present perspective. Anyway, the photos of the new cartouche are impressive and I can't wait to see it lifted into place!


----------



## The Eagle

Hey Fudgis! How do you do?!

Your pictures are misleading. The demolition was a quick, spontaneous woke moment.
The castle was secured and cleaned inside out. The building was partly destroyed
but several parts where still in use until 1950! 
The exhibition on downtowns future looks and plans was presented inside the
Schloss 1948 - 1949.

The next stage was to fix all buildings. Hitler had ordered to rebuild all German cities
the way the used to be. Maybe moving some buildings carefully some meters to the
side to make some main roads wider. So, when the war ended Germany started
fix everything. West and East Germany had to put their feet hard on the brakes
to stop that. That was around 1950. Fits with the demolition.
The horse stables right next door for example even saw new parts in neo-Baroque
stile! Parts that never where before 1945.

The pictures you got show either the cleaning and stabilizing for use around 1945 or
indeed, the start of reconstruction after 1947!
This must be confusing at first, but I see you got keen eyes!

The demolition came fast and furious. The order was to make sure no decent part
survives. The population was against the demolition. So, special workers
where send in to make sure they let their steam go. Large parts where smashed
on purpose. The depress was hauled off in secret to keep locals from getting
memorabilia. The dynamizing was done in quite hours to surprise the locals.
The stones that survived, survived because they were taken out of the castle
before, heading for restauration. To save those, the restaurateurs did not
talk about their location much. When the reconstruction finally came, the
surviving pieces where overgrown by trees. A quite place to keep the woke
from finding them.

The regime even had guards by the castle to keep people from taking stuff.
But some pieces made it in Gardens anyhow. 

The portal in the Staatsrats House? That is a new semi copy.
Based on fake Communist propaganda that some guy proclaimed Germany to
be communist on that balcony in 1918. All fake. He stood on a hood of a
pick up. Besides, the Social Democrats had already stolen the power with fake news prior
and where mowing the military and the communists down with machine guns at that time.
The idea to keep the one portal came too late. So, a new copy of that portal was built.
It has somewhere between 1.5% and 2% original stones. It also looks different.
Royal and Christion symbols where replaced.


----------



## The Eagle

*Before the questions start coming in, here the 
so called Marstall, the horse stable/ car garage:
(Castle to the left)









Today. As you can see, the building was extended in original baroque stile 
between 1945 and 1950. From three window axes (it`s called that way) 
to five! But the roof lines are cut off! What happened?! 









Well the communists where in panic when finding out that reconstruction orders 
where already given in 1944 by the previous government! lol (The faces!!!)









The DDR stopped the reconstruction and replaced those two plaques with communist propaganda 
plaques:


















Here. The oriental looking building in the back by the river Spree 
is a water pumping station:


















One of the several inner courts:

























*
Thanks, Mantikor!*


As you can see, after 1945 the workers even tried to complete the Marstall complex from the 1880!!!
If not stopped, we would have seen the castle back much, much sooner.*


----------



## Darryl

The Eagle said:


> *
> View attachment 3679332
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679373
> *


I didn't realize the Marstall was that beautiful. The flat roof that is there today looks terrible.


----------



## The Eagle

*While we are already at it, more pictures:
For the horses 1665 - 1670. Fixed in 1961. The so called old Marstall:









Right next to it the 1710 added "Ribbeck Haus" in Renaissance stile. The use of Renaissance in the 
middle of baroque times is unusual at least:









Ribbeck Haus:









The rest of the complex is called "Neuer Marstall" and was added only between 1896 and 1901:









Picture from 1902, a year after completion. The picture is from the 
German Builders Magazine and showed the Nations current construction trend
from month to month:









Water side. Made in stile to work with the castle next door:










The space that is rubble is the forth side. The ruble used to be the neighbors building.
Today we have Germanys Chamber of Commerce from the 1990`s 
on that spot, therefore no pictures from that forth side:







*
Thanks, Spreetunnel and Wikipedia!


----------



## The Eagle

*Some pictures from 2019. You know me. Let`s go in!









Inside the Portal. The Schloss is across the street! 
One can make out the same stile in construction:









From the back. This wing is from 1896 - 1901. The usage of the whole 
complex changed many times. First Theater in Berlin, storage, courts.
The Neuer Marstall was always for horses and cars. 
1914 we had here 300 horses, carriages and some 10 + cars parked in this complex:









The opposite wing. There is another inner court at the other side. 
River Spree would be behind the left wing:









The DDR had the facades simplified. No royal symbols wanted.
That is why some facades look out of wack. Not this one:









The same wing from the previous picture, just from the other side. We are in the second court!
To your right hand side is the river Spree and to your left the "Breite Strasse" street 
with that 1660`s build:









Now we see the left side better:









The right hand side wing again. Behind the river Spree. 
This was defiantly not like this 100 years ago!*








With much help from Mantikor, thank you!

*In case you wonder about its use: Since the 1920`s the complex has become 
a library and a file storage used by the state of Berlin. Berlin is a city 
and also its own state/province.
They planned to build a new building but that was shelved do to money issues.*


----------



## JDewar

The Eagle said:


> *Before the questions start coming in, here the
> so called Marstall, the horse stable/ car garage:
> (Castle to the left)
> View attachment 3679320
> 
> 
> Today. As you can see, the building was extended in original baroque stile
> between 1945 and 1950. From three window axes (it`s called that way)
> to five! But the roof lines are cut off! What happened?!
> View attachment 3679332
> 
> 
> Well the communists where in panic when finding out that reconstruction orders
> where already given in 1944 by the previous government! lol (The faces!!!)
> View attachment 3679342
> 
> 
> The DDR stopped the reconstruction and replaced those two plaques with communist propaganda
> plaques:
> View attachment 3679357
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679360
> 
> 
> Here. The oriental looking building in the back by the river Spree
> is a water pumping station:
> View attachment 3679369
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679373
> 
> 
> One of the several inner courts:
> View attachment 3679376
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679380
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679382
> *
> Thanks, Mantikor!
> 
> 
> *As you can see, after 1945 the workers even tried to complete the Marstall complex from the 1880!!!
> If not stopped, we would have seen the castle back much, much sooner.*


It seems like the Marstall could be easily restored on the facade facing the castle to regain it's beautiful roof pediments and statues. Perhaps we should suggest this to Mr. Wilhelm von Boddien?


----------



## Steve Gatlin

JDewar said:


> It seems like the Marstall could be easily restored on the facade facing the castle to regain it's beautiful roof pediments and statues. Perhaps we should suggest this to Mr. Wilhelm von Boddien?


The post-war photos show the balustrade statues were in pretty good shape on the damaged building. I have to wonder what happened to them.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

The Eagle said:


> Hey Fudgis! How do you do?!
> 
> Your pictures are misleading. The demolition was a quick, spontaneous woke moment.
> The castle was secured and cleaned inside out. The building was partly destroyed
> but several parts where still in use until 1950!
> The exhibition on downtowns future looks and plans was presented inside the
> Schloss 1948 - 1949.
> 
> The next stage was to fix all buildings. Hitler had ordered to rebuild all German cities
> the way the used to be. Maybe moving some buildings carefully some meters to the
> side to make some main roads wider. So, when the war ended Germany started
> fix everything. West and East Germany had to put their food hard on the brakes
> to stop that. That was around 1950. Fits with the demolition.
> The horse stables right next door for example even saw new parts in neo Baroque
> stile! Parts that never where before 1945.
> 
> The pictures you got show either the cleaning and stabilizing for use around 1945 or
> indeed the start of reconstruction after 1947!
> This must be confusing at first, but I see you got keen eyes!
> 
> The demolition came fast and furious. The order was to make sure no decent part
> survives. The population was against the demolition. So, special workers
> where send in to make sure they let their steam go. Large parts where smashed
> on purpose. The depress was hauled off in secret to keep locals from getting
> memorabilia. The dynamizing was done in quite hours to surprise the locals.
> The stones that survived survived because they where taken out of the castle
> before, heading for restauration. To save those, the restaurateurs did not
> talk about their location much. When the reconstruction finally came, the
> surviving pieces where overgrown by trees. A quite place to keep the woke
> from finding them.
> 
> The regime even had guards by the castle to keep people from taking stuff.
> But some pieces made it in Gardens anyhow.
> 
> The portal in the Staatsrats House? That is a new semi copy.
> Based on fake Communist propaganda that some guy proclaimed Germany to
> be communist on that balcony in 1918. All fake. He stood on a hood of a
> pick up. Besides, the Social Democrats had already stolen the power with fake news prior
> and where mowing the military and the communists down with machine guns at that time.
> The idea to keep the one portal came too late. So a new copy of that portal was build.
> It has somewhere between 1.5% and 2% original stones. It also looks different.
> Royal and Christion symbols where replaced.


Honestly, I feel you both are saying the same thing, Fudgis (from what I understood here) seems to be saying that plans for restoration were there prior to the demolition, which is entirely possible given that the people were in favor of preserving the palace, and hence why some rooms that were not heavily damaged were still being used. 

In both cases (yours and theirs) remnants of the palace seem to have survived somewhere, which is why the coat of arms (it's really small) under the Great Cartouche above the Eosander Portal has survived and is currently being restored. Just like the reliefs on the Bismarck National-Denkmal disappeared under the West Berlin government in 1958, many pieces are probably lost or in private ownership (without them knowing), but not all destroyed. Also, the guy that made the proclamation of a Communist Germany too late was Karl Liebknecht, later killed in 1919 in the turmoil that followed the abdication of the Kaiser, the loss of a stable Germany, and the hatred directed at the Treaty of Versailles and the new "republic".


----------



## Fudgis

I wouldn't go as far as saying that there were any plans to restore the palace, I was merely hinting that some minor patching of the ruins appeared to have occured pending a final decision being made on its fate, probably more for public safety than any serious attempt at restoration. But it is tantalising to think what could have been saved had history (and the East German regime in particular) been kinder to posterity. Who knows, maybe restoring it to some sort of government use could have even been briefly considered by some had it not been decided its history and symbolism was too 'toxic' for the regime to tolerate.

I am not contradicting The Eagle's explanation of events in any way (I am a huge fan of his contributions to this forum and have always trusted his input), the demolition was indeed swift and brutal and the palace was treated with a barbaric contempt by the DDR communist authorities.

I found those photos on a German discussion site and felt they were worth sharing as I didn't recall seeing them here before, and they do suggest a few elements were removed prior to the demolition that have not been located since. All the bronze plaques and cartouche were clearly spirited away, but to what ends? I think it's highly likely they were eventually melted down for their material value, as presumably happened with most of the sculpture from the Nationaldenkmal and even the bronze statuary that formerly adorned the Reichstag.

Those photos also indicate that immediately prior to the demolition certain stone reliefs were hacked off too (why go to the trouble of doing this if the palace was to be destroyed anyway?) along with a couple of capitals from the main portal. Clearly this activity did far more damage to them than the war did, but it just raises the spectre of possibility that some remains of these pieces could survive somewhere, so I just wanted to add that glimmer of hope that more could one day resurface.

However such photos also indicate that other pieces remained in situ to be destroyed by dynamite (the victory and putti reliefs on the curved walls flanking the main portal clearly weren't 'saved', though these may have been much more damaged by war). And the handsome caryatid figures above the north portals (including the Liebneckt portal) were also left in place according to a German account I found. An attempt was made to make these parts of the facades 'fall on their backs' during demolition so that the figures could be retrieved in pieces from the rubble afterwards. It's amazing anything of them survived at all.

When other photos show how such pieces had survived the burning of the palace otherwise intact, along with significant remains of the interior ornamentation (see the glimpse of the remains of the Rittersaal below, no attempt was made to rescue any of this) it just emphasises the scale of East German state vandalism, regardless of their all too few and meagre attempts at salvage























.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

It is really depressing to think about, all those pieces were just hacked off and the rest senselessly demolished. A palace that Berlin had revolved around throughout its modern existence (from the Early Middle Ages), just gone. Centuries of life, politics, social change, and the castle itself, slowly changing and evolving into a beloved part of Berlin, just vanished overnight.


----------



## Fudgis

Prussian Königsberg said:


> It is really depressing to think about, all those pieces were just hacked off and the rest senselessly demolished. A palace that Berlin had revolved around throughout its modern existence (from the Early Middle Ages), just gone. Centuries of life, politics, social change, and the castle itself, slowly changing and evolving into a beloved part of Berlin, just vanished overnight.


Yes, it's a crime against civilsation itself really, an ideolgical airbrushing of history and heritage (equal to what Daesh were doing in Iraq and Syria, destroying wonderful ancient sites like Palmyra and Nimrud). Such things happen when a small extremist minority seeks to impose control over the majority, erasing cultural identity to separate a people from their past. And it's not just the target people who suffer such losses, it's all of us.

If a vandal wantonly damages or destroys a work of art out of sheer spite they are rightly viewed with the contempt they deserve. A regime that does so but on a much larger scale may claim conflicting interests of ideology but is really no different.

I did read somewhere that the attempts at removing certain decorative pieces from the palace were an attempt to counter such international accusations of vandalism and may have been purely for show which is why salvaged material disappeared. Judging by the state they left the previously almost intact facade in prior to demolition it certainly wasn't done with much care, but it's enough to cling to the hope that a few more fragments may still be out there.


----------



## Tiaren

Steve Gatlin said:


> The post-war photos show the balustrade statues were in pretty good shape on the damaged building. I have to wonder what happened to them.


The answer to that is pretty sad and upsetting. The big tympani and much of the sculptural decor survived the war, but was taken into storage during postwar renovation of the building...and today Berlin's department of monument protection _allegedly _can't find any of the pieces anymore. How conventient...


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Tiaren said:


> The answer to that is pretty sad and upsetting. The big tympani and much of the sculptural decor survived the war, but was taken into storage during postwar renovation of the building...and today Berlin's department of monument protection _allegedly _can't find any of the pieces anymore. How conventient...


A local news organization should have a reporter look into this issue. The building is a protected monument so it's newsworthy to find out what happened to those ornaments.


----------



## tesseract

Steve Gatlin said:


> A local news organization should have a reporter look into this issue. The building is a protected monument so it's newsworthy to find out what happened to those ornaments.


The newly rebuilt structure certainly isn’t a protected monument, and i don’t think the original ever was, either.
Nevertheless, if anyone is interrested enough to finance some private investigation into the matter is welcome to do so.


----------



## Tiaren

Steve Gatlin said:


> A local news organization should have a reporter look into this issue. The building is a protected monument so it's newsworthy to find out what happened to those ornaments.


As tesseract said, at the time it probably wasn't protected yet (Wilhelminian architecture was looked down upon, fortunately not anymore) and the admission that they can't find the storaged pieces anymore was also not recently made but already made _decades_ ago. So news wouldn't be interested into looking at such an old story.
By now the Neue Marstall is likely a protected monument, but it's the current, modified version.
Same applies to the Cathedral. It's a protected monument, but that includes the modified dome and towers.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Steve Gatlin said:


> A local news organization should have a reporter look into this issue. The building is a protected monument so it's newsworthy to find out what happened to those ornaments.


I agree, but (offtopic I know) I have this idea, I simply can't shake off this idea I've had for a while; we've always wanted reconstructions, but why we can't we embellish them even further. I don't mean build them differently, I mean adding more decoration, more statues instead of just restoring them to their prewar state? Just an idea.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

The Eagle said:


> *Before the questions start coming in, here the
> so called Marstall, the horse stable/ car garage:
> (Castle to the left)
> View attachment 3679320
> 
> 
> Today. As you can see, the building was extended in original baroque stile
> between 1945 and 1950. From three window axes (it`s called that way)
> to five! But the roof lines are cut off! What happened?!
> View attachment 3679332
> 
> 
> Well the communists where in panic when finding out that reconstruction orders
> where already given in 1944 by the previous government! lol (The faces!!!)
> View attachment 3679342
> 
> 
> The DDR stopped the reconstruction and replaced those two plaques with communist propaganda
> plaques:
> View attachment 3679357
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679360
> 
> 
> Here. The oriental looking building in the back by the river Spree
> is a water pumping station:
> View attachment 3679369
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679373
> 
> 
> One of the several inner courts:
> View attachment 3679376
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679380
> 
> 
> View attachment 3679382
> *
> Thanks, Mantikor!
> 
> 
> *As you can see, after 1945 the workers even tried to complete the Marstall complex from the 1880!!!
> If not stopped, we would have seen the castle back much, much sooner.*


Communist plaques that are still there, mind you.


----------



## Fudgis

Prussian Königsberg said:


> Communist plaques that are still there, mind you.


Wouldn't it be nice if recreations of the original sculptures could be reinstated in their place (or even original pieces if any survived).


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Fudgis said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if recreations of the original sculptures could be reinstated in their place (or even original pieces if any survived).


Why stop there? Why not the statues and the original roof? Why not a new historically-styled interior?


----------



## badgäst1

Are there any plans for further reconstructions of old buildings in Berlin at the moment?


----------



## Ioannes_

badgäst1 said:


> Are there any plans for further reconstructions of old buildings in Berlin at the moment?



Of course: with the war in Ukraine, nuclear power plants and those that generate energy by burning fossil fuels such as coal.


----------



## TM_Germany

badgäst1 said:


> Are there any plans for further reconstructions of old buildings in Berlin at the moment?


The Bauakademie reconstruction is still on low burn but quite likely, imo. Another exciting one that is actually schuduled to start next year is the Art Deco Karstadt am Hermannplatz:
















Karstadt am Hermannplatz: Baustart kommendes Jahr


Gewerbe, Platzumbau und was im Kiez anders werden soll: Das sind die drängendsten Fragen rund um das Bauprojekt am Hermannplatz.




www.morgenpost.de





Apart from that, nothing major, although there is a chance some reconstructions might come up in the Molkenmarkt project.








Planung - Molkenmarkt Berlin


BERLIN PLANT AM MOLKENMARKT EIN NEUES QUARTIER ZUM WOHNEN UND ARBEITEN Durch den Umbau der Grunerstraße gewinnen die Berliner*innen wieder ein Stück historische Mitte zurück. Der gewonnene Raum bietet die Möglichkeit, an die Qualitäten einer ehemals kleinteilig angelegten Stadtstruktur...




molkenmarkt.berlin.de


----------



## Steve Gatlin

TM_Germany said:


> The Bauakademie reconstruction is still on low burn but quite likely, imo. Another exciting one that is actually schuduled to start next year is the Art Deco Karstadt am Hermannplatz:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Karstadt am Hermannplatz: Baustart kommendes Jahr
> 
> 
> Gewerbe, Platzumbau und was im Kiez anders werden soll: Das sind die drängendsten Fragen rund um das Bauprojekt am Hermannplatz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.morgenpost.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from that, nothing major, although there is a chance some reconstructions might come up in the Molkenmarkt project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Planung - Molkenmarkt Berlin
> 
> 
> BERLIN PLANT AM MOLKENMARKT EIN NEUES QUARTIER ZUM WOHNEN UND ARBEITEN Durch den Umbau der Grunerstraße gewinnen die Berliner*innen wieder ein Stück historische Mitte zurück. Der gewonnene Raum bietet die Möglichkeit, an die Qualitäten einer ehemals kleinteilig angelegten Stadtstruktur...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> molkenmarkt.berlin.de


Maybe during the excavations of the Molkenmarkt area, archaeologists will uncover the balustrade sculptures and pediment from the Neuer Marstall.


----------



## The Eagle

*Update! Had no time yesterday!
My windshield needed replacing. Had the car only five days 
before a stone split my windshield! 700$ later and it`s fixed.
Also had to work overtime and to sweeten my day I ended up
with a mild food poisoning. That makes you feel like dying! 
I had it from cauliflower! Can you believe it? We had it cooked, too.
Or maybe the milk in the cheese sauce did it. Who knows! 

Anyway. back here with some nice updates and some explaining!
So, please sit back, relax and enjoy. 
We are here on the eastern portal, Portal 1:









Westside:









Like to explain this situation: The old building had columns in the back and the front
to carry the weight. Today we do not need all those columns. 
The columns in front are now reinforced concrete. This concrete will be Putzed/Plastered 
over. The columns in the back come back like original but are only for show.
It will look like before the war. The folded ceiling will also come back next:
















*
Thank you, Mantikor!


----------



## The Eagle

*Now we jump to Portal 4:









Funny to see it like this:









The folded ceiling will make it or break it:


















This natural stone business from Bamberg in Bavaria is also involved.
The picture on this Sprinter shows the "Barberini" building reconstruction
located in Potsdam. They were involved there too:*








Mantikor, APH Forum. Thank you!

*For reconstruction projects in Potsdam please click here:








Reconstruction projects in Potsdam (City Palace, baroque...


Potsdam (just outside Berlin) used to more or less be the capital of the Hohenzollerns. Having sustained a fair degree of damage during WW2 it nonetheless remains a beautiful city. One of the biggest reconstruction projects is the Hohenzollern palace. Source...




www.skyscrapercity.com




*


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

The Eagle said:


> *Now we jump to Portal 4:
> View attachment 3850070
> 
> 
> Funny to see it like this:
> View attachment 3850074
> 
> 
> The folded ceiling will make it or break it:
> View attachment 3850081
> 
> 
> View attachment 3850083
> 
> 
> This natural stone business from Bamberg in Bavaria is also involved.
> The picture on this Sprinter shows the "Barberini" building reconstruction
> located in Potsdam. They were involved there too:*
> View attachment 3850094
> 
> Mantikor, APH Forum. Thank you!
> 
> *For reconstruction projects in Potsdam please click here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reconstruction projects in Potsdam (City Palace, baroque...
> 
> 
> Potsdam (just outside Berlin) used to more or less be the capital of the Hohenzollerns. Having sustained a fair degree of damage during WW2 it nonetheless remains a beautiful city. One of the biggest reconstruction projects is the Hohenzollern palace. Source...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.skyscrapercity.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Is it just me, or does the stonework seem to have aged or gotten darker? Either way, I like it, because feels more realistic.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Prussian Königsberg said:


> Is it just me, or does the stonework seem to have aged or gotten darker? Either way, I like it, because feels more realistic.


Does anyone have an update on the Freedom & Unity monument in front of the Stadtschloss?


----------



## Darryl

...Or better yet, the main cartouche on the Eosander Portal?


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Steve Gatlin said:


> Does anyone have an update on the Freedom & Unity monument in front of the Stadtschloss?


I mean except more delays (meaning it won't be there for Unity Day), couldn't find anything else.


----------



## Darryl

They could've built four of them by now lol


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Darryl said:


> They could've built four of them by now lol


Could've honestly. They'll move fast to restore Marx and Engels to their spots, but not their own unity monument (which nobody wants or even asked for).


----------



## Steve Gatlin

Prussian Königsberg said:


> Could've honestly. They'll move fast to restore Marx and Engels to their spots, but not their own unity monument (which nobody wants or even asked for).


Isn't the unity monument supposed to move when people are walking on it? I believe Eagle once advised that someone's loose, curious poodle will be crushed under the moving parts. Anyway, if it is a moveable structure, the assembly of the "monument" will be somewhat complicated.


----------



## The Eagle

Darryl said:


> They could've built four of them by now lol



Hello Darrel! How do you do? 
Why does it take so long?

I am not sure if I had written this before:

0 The city of Berlin is half and half about this monument.
Most majors and the voters are pro monument commemorating 1871.

0 The province/state of Berlin is completely against the unity monument 
commemorating 1871.

0 The federal government is against the monument commemorating 
the unity of 1990 at this location.

Thousands of people plus the federal government have come forward
to rebuild the old memorial. Maybe without the Kaiser. But at least 
all the rest of it. The new memorial is supposed to go 
either by the TV tower, where the protest was,
or inside the government quarters.

The state of Berlin wants this memorial on the spot of the old one 
on purpose. The idea was openly communicated and admitted 
as to prevent a reconstruction of the old one. By filling the spot.


----------



## The Eagle

It all takes now so long, because different levels of government are at "war"
with each other: Papers have to be filled out but come back filled out wrong.
One date is missing here or is on the wrong line there.
Or the response came about two days late.
The idea is to play time. The province of Berlin is getting warmer about
the two memorials idea. The 1871 and the 1990 memorials.
For us it would mean the original memorial coming back.
Money is not an issue: The federal government has the funding
approved and sitting in an account going back to around 2012, I think.

The state of Berlin tried to speed things up, even trying to cut corners.
The federal government noticed this and is slowing things way, way down.
The opening of construction was postponed at least a dozen times.

There are even fans cheering for each side!
But most fans cheer for the feds.
An example: Construction crew hired by Berlin state are on their way
to get things started.

The response?
Next thing a Lawyer is informing the state that the plot is still owned by the feds!
At seven in the morning this comes in! That any change to the plot 
is considered illegal and need to be turned back!

Next day in the Newspapers. People are cheering like: "Well, done Feds!"
"Down your throat Berlin!" or "The Feds cannot do this!"

Or the time Berlin wanted to start but cut corners with the bats!
Bat animals were living under the memorial. But construction could
scare them away. So, Berlin cutting corners claims that the bats disappeared.
Construction crews have been ordered in! Too late to stop us now!

Response by the feds:
Do nothing! We send our own people! Unlock the doors.
They did find all the bats. They were still sleeping in there.
By this time the feds decided to take all the time they need to
relocate those bats. They were moved about 20 km.
But they had to wait for the right time of year. You can`t kill
little bat babies, can you?
Berlin had to pay for the relocation, of course: 150 000 E later!

Next day it is all in the media. People cheering!
"Take this!" "Not with us!" or "Revenge will be ours!"


----------



## The Eagle

*Let`s round this off with some love and pictures!
Pictures are about two weeks old:













































This could slowly get finished, indeed:
















*
Pictures with approval by Mantikor! Thanks!


----------



## Darryl

So is there still no chance of getting the once proposed staircase down to the water? That would be so much better for all of this. It would make the whole plaza more grand and imposing.


----------



## The Eagle

Darryl said:


> So is there still no chance of getting the once proposed staircase down to the water? That would be so much better for all of this. It would make the whole plaza more grand and imposing.


The staircase was planned to go right next to it. 
The staircase was part of a bigger "public summer bath" project.
That project was canceled. The bigger project. 
Now there are talks to finish the stairs only.


----------



## Darryl

Thanks Eagle for your explanation of the infighting and politics surrounding this monument. Sounds exhausting. It explains why things have taken SO LONG. Glad to hear finishing the stairs is being talked about. It really would be nice and make the plaza even more of a destination.


----------



## The Eagle

*Update Portal 4!
The ceiling will come back next:









You can see the future ceiling height on the columns:









Royal initials and crowns are smiling down on us!
The other building straight is also a museum. We are here on the so called "Museum Island"
This castle completes the collections with Africa, Oceania and Asia. Event spaces are also in here.
The rest of the space in this building serves restauration teams:









The old workshops for restorations where outdated and located in a potential flood zone!
So, they moved those workshops in here as well.
Portal IV again. The sandstone makes it really nice:*








Mantikor, thank you!


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello everyone! Nice to have you back so soon!

The square in front gets paved:


















The building to the left was the second chambre of Government back in the DDR times.
It was from 1998 to 2002 Germanies White House. Gerhard Schroeder had his office in there.
Now it is used as a private school of business. The building on the right is 
part of Germanies Ministery of state. 
The grayer middle part in the distance is from the same Ministery. That part is from the 3rd Reich:









The ramp is so that wheelchair users can get on the golden bowl: (comes later)*

















Thank you very much so, Mantikor!


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello! Let us have some pictures 
from the "Lust Garten" side. 
Here you go:
The elevator down to the brand-new U-Bahn station:





























































*
Mantikor, thanks!


----------



## The Eagle

*The Berliner Dom has also an interesting project.
The memorial wing housing the coffins of the Hohenzollern had to be 
demolished in the 70`s. Now we are building here an entrance to 
the basement with the coffins. A reconstruction is not coming,
but an awkward extension! 
Only God knows what them people want! Here the Dom seen form the square:









No glue what this is supposed to become. It could have something to do with the "Sanchi Gate":









Here is the next thing coming.
The makers of the inside Exabition are going to put this here:








Since the Asian exhibition is inside the Forum, this gate is planned to go outside;

This is the so called "Sanchi Gate". The original is located in Dalem.
The idea is to put a copy here:







*
Mantikor from APH Forum. Thank you.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

The Eagle said:


> *The Berliner Dom has also an interesting project.
> The memorial wing housing the coffins of the Hohenzollern had to be
> demolished in the 70`s. Now we are building here an entrance to
> the basement with the coffins. A reconstruction is not coming,
> but an awkward extension!
> Only God knows what them people want! Here the Dom seen form the square:
> View attachment 3984109
> 
> 
> No glue what this is supposed to become. It could have something to do with the "Sanchi Gate":
> View attachment 3984114
> 
> 
> Here is the next thing coming.
> The makers of the inside Exabition are going to put this here:
> View attachment 3984117
> 
> Since the Asian exhibition is inside the Forum, this gate is planned to go outside;
> 
> This is the so called "Sanchi Gate". The original is located in Dalem.
> The idea is to put a copy here:
> View attachment 3984121
> *
> Mantikor from APH Forum. Thank you.


Why is the Sanchi gate necessary here if at all, it clearly obstructs the line of sight from the Lustgarten to Portal V and will dent the look of the palace, especially on the best side in my opinion. It feels like Berlin is *trying *to make the castle look ugly...


----------



## The Eagle

*It is wired indeed to put a second copy of an Asian building here while
blocking the Duch memorials like the dukes from Oranier and the Russian memorial
called the "Ross-baendiger". Or the Berliner memorials like the Eagle Column. 
Or decoration like the fountain. All of this stuff still exists. 
They just parked it elsewhere!

The first Sanchi Gate of Berlin is in Dahlem. That one is also made of cheap concrete:*









*The Asia collection used to be and is still partly in Dahlem.
So, the first copy will stay here in Dahlem, too.

There is more of the India collection here in the Stadt Schloss.
That is when the idea came to put a second one in front of Mr. Stella`s facade:









The original is in India. There are copies in other countries as well, like one in London.

The latest gag is to put it on the side:









*


----------



## nightscraper

I don't know about that, I know the gate will be an eyeshore in that location.


----------



## Slartibartfas

I don't know, need to see how it will look like in the end. But given the nature of the museum inside the Stadtschloss, the location makes sense.


----------



## Darryl

The Eagle said:


> *The stairs down the water project have been stopped:
> View attachment 4049015
> *


Stopped forever? Or just stopped for the time being (delayed)?


----------



## Jalpasi

Slartibartfas said:


> I find it fascinating how someone could get oneself worked up about such a complete non-story.
> The left cries "cultural appropriation", the right cries "multi-culti". Whatever.


I agree. It's very normal for a museum to expose something outside that relates to what's inside. 

I completely understand the questions people are raising, but I think in the end with the mix of old and new of the Humboldt Forum, the reunification monument, the Sanchi gate, all these trees that will grow, there is a good chance that everything will come into place and create a rich, interesting and successful urban environment. 

Again I think the goal was never to recreate a pre WWII city scape, but to create something that reflects Berlin : its history but also its modernity and its openness to the world.


----------



## Pain Train

I wonder why didn't they put the Sanchi Gate in the courtyard? And why didn't they put Ivy on the banal modernist facade along the river?


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

The Eagle said:


> *The foundation of the Sanchi Gate:
> View attachment 4096005
> *
> source:BZ


Oh how wonderful. Just pleasant. Another eyesore in a city full of eyesores.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Pain Train said:


> I wonder why didn't they put the Sanchi Gate in the courtyard? And why didn't they put Ivy on the banal modernist facade along the river?


This would be the question, and honestly, I think it was chosen because the Lustgarten side is baroque, as if to deface a beautiful picture.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Darryl said:


> Stopped forever? Or just stopped for the time being (delayed)?


It's just done, last I heard it won't be coming back.


----------



## The Eagle

Slartibartfas said:


> I find it fascinating how someone could get oneself worked up about such a complete non-story.
> The left cries "cultural appropriation", the right cries "multi-culti". Whatever.


Not the case: The left is against Multi Kulti. They want the museum closed
and send all items back to where they came from. 
The right, I do not see any right. The right wanted to use the space for 
pictures and German stuff. The globalists wanted the international stuff,
but is colliding with the left. The woke is against any original items
from foreign countries, but also against national items. 
Every group is fighting with itself at this point.


----------



## JDewar

The Eagle said:


> Not the case: The left is against Multi Kulti. They want the museum closed
> and send all items back to where they came from.
> The right, I do not see any right. The right wanted to use the space for
> pictures and German stuff. The globalists wanted the international stuff,
> but is colliding with the left. The woke is against any original items
> from foreign countries, but also against national items.
> Every group is fighting with itself at this point.


It makes me wonder what other terrible ideas they will come up with. First the rooftop restaurant, then the one willow tree on the Spree, then the Unity Monument, and now the out-of-place gate.


----------



## Steve Gatlin

JDewar said:


> It makes me wonder what other terrible ideas they will come up with. First the rooftop restaurant, then the one willow tree on the Spree, then the Unity Monument, and now the out-of-place gate.


Perhaps an Aztec skull rack by the unity monument, or a gigantic phallus in front of the Berliner Dom!


----------



## Slartibartfas

The Eagle said:


> Not the case: The left is against Multi Kulti. They want the museum closed
> and send all items back to where they came from.
> The right, I do not see any right. The right wanted to use the space for
> pictures and German stuff. The globalists wanted the international stuff,
> but is colliding with the left. The woke is against any original items
> from foreign countries, but also against national items.
> Every group is fighting with itself at this point.


How about the complaint about "Multi Kulti" just a page or two before? Are you telling me that was done due to leftist motives?
And I am not sure what you failed to understand here, I was criticizing the "cultural appropriation" ideology myself. Just because the far left and the far right seem to agree on the same things for different reasons, doesn't change anything I said.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Steve Gatlin said:


> Perhaps an Aztec skull rack by the unity monument, or a gigantic phallus in front of the Berliner Dom!


Who said the unity seesaw was good either! Germany has so many monuments to itself, and her heroes, if only they'd take them and put them back where they belong...


----------



## Tiaren

The beautifully detailed reliefs and lettered tablets of the main portal:


















By Mantikor: Westliches Umfeld Berliner Schloss - Schlossfreiheit - ehem. Nationaldenkmal - Architekturforum Architectura Pro Homine

Towards the end of the year the great cartouche will complete the main portal.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Tiaren said:


> The beautifully detailed reliefs and lettered tablets of the main portal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By Mantikor: Westliches Umfeld Berliner Schloss - Schlossfreiheit - ehem. Nationaldenkmal - Architekturforum Architectura Pro Homine
> 
> Towards the end of the year the great cartouche will complete the main portal.


Eageraly awating that, will be great to see Portal III on its way to completion!


----------



## The Eagle

*Like to enjoy a nice walk on this fine Sunday? 
Come with us! Today, I like to show you our brand new 
underground station!

The station was planned around 1900. Construction started 
right at the Alexander Platz square in 1912. Stopped due to 
WW1. Planes for completion restarted in 1928 but was wrong timing.
The Allies forced Germany to pay Trillions and the economy tanked.
The planning stage started again in 1936 but stopped 1939 due to war. 
The DDR had also no money. Another problem was that the line was 
supposed to connect the main railway station all the way down to
Alexander Platz underground hub. Problem: One side was in East Germany,
the other side West Germany. Plans for completion started 1992 again!
New Problem: Over 50 larger and different construction projects 
caused space problems. Berlin also had not enough money to do all at once.
Also: To save money and to open and repave the streets only once, 
the decision was made to build the new U-Bahn Linie 5 called underground line
simultaneously with the Stadt Schloss Humbold Forum. 

Now, 100 years late, Ladies and Gentlemen, I am happy to announce 
the final completion of U-Bahn station in front of our Castle reconstruction!
Let us get a peek:*









*The U-Bahn Station is under the river Spree. Entrances are on both sides of the water.
That makes the tunnels very long:









and it goes down, way down:









Third floor underground. The river is above us:









Train station with the name "Museumsinsel". The Museums Island has the world's largest 
collections on display. Divided into several museums. The Humbold Forum is part of Museum Island:









The ceiling is royal blue with little stars shining through. 
This idea came from Mozart's play Zauber Floete. 
Architect Mr. Schinkel painted many of his designed ceilings 
in that theme. Since we are here close to the Schinkel Square
it seemed fitting:









Going for ever:









Old pictures from times past by are on the walls:









and we come out right in front of our Castle:









the other exit. There are two. One for each side of the tracks:

























*
Thanks, Mantikor! fantastic.*

I thought pictures of this underground station may be of interest for all here.*


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

The Eagle said:


> *Like to enjoy a nice walk on this fine Sunday?
> Come with us! Today, I like to show you our brand new
> underground station!
> 
> The station was planned around 1900. Construction started
> right at the Alexander Platz square in 1912. Stopped due to
> WW1. Planes for completion restarted in 1928 but was wrong timing.
> The Allies forced Germany to pay Trillions and the economy tanked.
> The planning stage started again in 1936 but stopped 1939 due to war.
> The DDR had also no money. Another problem was that the line was
> supposed to connect the main railway station all the way down to
> Alexander Platz underground hub. Problem: One side was in East Germany,
> the other side West Germany. Plans for completion started 1992 again!
> New Problem: Over 50 larger and different construction projects
> caused space problems. Berlin also had not enough money to do all at once.
> Also: To save money and to open and repave the streets only once,
> the decision was made to build the new U-Bahn Linie 5 called underground line
> simultaneously with the Stadt Schloss Humbold Forum.
> 
> Now, 100 years late, Ladies and Gentlemen, I am happy to announce
> the final completion of U-Bahn station in front of our Castle reconstruction!
> Let us get a peek:*
> View attachment 4141428
> 
> 
> *The U-Bahn Station is under the river Spree. Entrances are on both sides of the water.
> That makes the tunnels very long:
> View attachment 4141465
> 
> 
> and it goes down, way down:
> View attachment 4141468
> 
> 
> Third floor underground. The river is above us:
> View attachment 4141472
> 
> 
> Train station with the name "Museumsinsel". The Museums Island has the world's largest
> collections on display. Divided into several museums. The Humbold Forum is part of Museum Island:
> View attachment 4141483
> 
> 
> The ceiling is royal blue with little stars shining through.
> This idea came from Mozart's play Zauber Floete.
> Architect Mr. Schinkel painted many of his designed ceilings
> in that theme. Since we are here close to the Schinkel Square
> it seemed fitting:
> View attachment 4141507
> 
> 
> Going for ever:
> View attachment 4141508
> 
> 
> Old pictures from times past by are on the walls:
> View attachment 4141510
> 
> 
> and we come out right in front of our Castle:
> View attachment 4141512
> 
> 
> the other exit. There are two. One for each side of the tracks:
> View attachment 4141516
> 
> 
> View attachment 4141519
> 
> 
> View attachment 4141522
> *
> Thanks, Mantikor! fantastic.
> 
> *I thought pictures of this underground station may be of interest for all here.*


Loving the design of it, pretty imaginative, however, why is Alte Kommandantur under scaffolding?


----------



## The Eagle

*Hello Mr. Prussian Koenigsberg! 
Did you know: East Prussia was Germanies "Texas"?
If you wanted a good salary and fewer rules to go by, 
you went to Prussia. Used to be like that for many 
hundreds of years, beginning after the year 1000.
Lasted until the Industrial revolution. When Germanies
manufacturing belt came to be elsewhere. 


About your question: Just a touch up by "Bertelsmann"
Bertelsmann is the large media cooperation that uses 
this building as "our representative office in the capital".
Close to politics, so to speak.

About the building:
The Alte Kommandatur (English: old Kommandatura) was originally build 
in 1654 as the city's commandant headquarters. Extensively renovated 
and changed into the Renaissance style we see today in 1873 to 1874. 
Damaged by Allied bombing and later demolished, 
the media cooperation Bertelsmann paid for its reconstruction between 
2001 - 2003 as part of the "Forum Fridericianum". 
The "Forum Fridericianum" was an idea back than to recreate the former 
political center of Berlin just for fun. All levels of Government were very
supportive back then. The buildings could be used for new purposes. 

and now some pictures:









In Christmas decoration:









prewar:









ally leading behind:









That is a picture from the back:







*




























*The front again:







*













*
















*
Wikipedia


----------



## The Eagle

*Just some pictures:









I am glad, they used colors that work in gray November:
















*

Thank you, Dexter!


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

The Eagle said:


> *Hello Mr. Prussian Koenigsberg!
> Did you know: East Prussia was Germanies "Texas"?
> If you wanted a good salary and fewer rules to go by,
> you went to Prussia. Used to be like that for many
> hundreds of years, beginning after the year 1000.
> Lasted until the Industrial revolution. When Germanies
> manufacturing belt came to be elsewhere.
> 
> 
> About your question: Just a touch up by "Bertelsmann"
> Bertelsmann is the large media cooperation that uses
> this building as "our representative office in the capital".
> Close to politics, so to speak.
> 
> About the building:
> The Alte Kommandatur (English: old Kommandatura) was originally build
> in 1654 as the city's commandant headquarters. Extensively renovated
> and changed into the Renaissance style we see today in 1873 to 1874.
> Damaged by Allied bombing and later demolished,
> the media cooperation Bertelsmann paid for its reconstruction between
> 2001 - 2003 as part of the "Forum Fridericianum".
> The "Forum Fridericianum" was an idea back than to recreate the former
> political center of Berlin just for fun. All levels of Government were very
> supportive back then. The buildings could be used for new purposes.
> 
> and now some pictures:
> View attachment 4148617
> 
> 
> In Christmas decoration:
> View attachment 4148625
> 
> 
> prewar:
> View attachment 4148626
> 
> 
> ally leading behind:
> View attachment 4148637
> 
> 
> That is a picture from the back:
> View attachment 4148639
> *
> 
> View attachment 4148648
> 
> 
> View attachment 4148651
> 
> 
> View attachment 4148655
> 
> 
> *The front again:
> View attachment 4148660
> *
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 4148642
> 
> 
> 
> *
> View attachment 4148640
> 
> 
> View attachment 4148664
> *
> Wikipedia


East Prussia was really nice, it kind of did stay that rural way even in the industrial age. Apart from the big cities like Konigsberg, Allenstein, etc., all the other areas were more smaller, with some literally existing in village form, leading to many ruined houses that now jut out from the land as their connection is gone and no one live there.


----------



## Prussian Königsberg

Tiaren said:


> That the donor investigation (which I do find very problematic for personal privacy rights reasons in the first place, but that's a whole other topic...) came to the conclusion that no politically extremist major donor paid for any of the reconstruction is a great relief! Had that not been the case, the Humboldt-Forum Foundation would have had the justification they needed to sever all ties with the Palace Society and to stop all reconstructions immediately.
> Now they have to keep on working with the Palace Society to at least see the Big Cartouche (which only needs to be mounted), the prophets statues surrounding the dome (which are almost finished), and the works on portal IV and V (which are already in the works) be finished.
> Maybe, I repeat, *maybe *they now also have to allow the outstanding statues of the portals I, II, IV and V to be finished and put up. They were after all decided by parliament to be reconstructed and now there is no excuse to sever ties with the Palace Society before these statues can go into work. The statues are also almost completely funded by now.
> In general, the Humboldt-Forum Foundation acted absolutely disgracefully to basically have collaborated with Oswalt, the guy who repeatedly made false allegations of donation misconduct and of allegedly politically extremist donors. This architecture professor has been bombarding the palace reconstruction project for at least a decade...since his design lost in the architecture competition to rebuilt the palace. Yes, you heard right, since he lost in the competition. Talk about a sore loser...
> Anyway, what a great outcome!
> 
> By the way, the Humboldt-Forum Foundation has now put out new guidelines for reconstruction donations. Of course they have, as they don't want any more donations to come in, lol.
> The press has rightfully mocked those guidelines, saying that by the new guidelines neither the Catholic Church nor members of their own foundation council would even be allowed to donate.


As they should. It's a clear effort to block reconstruction.


----------



## The Eagle

*Fresh pictures from today!
The city is gray today. Happens a lot this time of year:









170 tons is this gate heavy. Was made out of real stone this time.
The first copy in Dahlem (a part of Berlin) was made out of concrete.
Was made in Bavaria:













































While the construction moves ahead, we hear 
the association "Foerderverein Berliner Schloss" goes ahead
and pushes further for this design. 
The street signage is also being criticized.
Here an idea:









which is more or less what it was before:







*
Mantikor, thank you very much!


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## Larrymuffin

The Eagle said:


> *Fresh pictures from today!
> The city is gray today. Happens a lot this time of year:
> View attachment 4237832
> 
> 
> 170 tons is this gate heavy. Was made out of real stone this time.
> The first copy in Dahlem (a part of Berlin) was made out of concrete.
> Was made in Bavaria:
> View attachment 4237852
> 
> 
> View attachment 4237857
> 
> 
> View attachment 4237861
> 
> 
> View attachment 4237864
> 
> 
> View attachment 4237865
> 
> 
> While the construction moves ahead, we hear
> the association "Foerderverein Berliner Schloss" goes ahead
> and pushes further for this design.
> The street signage is also being criticized.
> Here an idea:
> View attachment 4237893
> 
> 
> which is more or less what it was before:
> View attachment 4237902
> *
> Mantikor, thank you very much!


As for the ancient gate, that is interesting a bit of a curiosité, not sure I understand what it is doing there in that spot. As for the outside design greenery it should go ahead the sterile cobble stone is really not appealing and historically incorrect, I think. Now where is the great Cartouche above Portal III?


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## * Dark Cathedral *

_*The **Neptunbrunnen** also designed by Reinhold Begas needs to be returned to the schlossplatz where it belongs.*_


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## The Eagle

*I only say: New pictures! lol



































*
Thanks, Mantikor!


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## Octosteel

Is there any sense that there will be projects to rebuild more classic buildings of Berlin? Is the Palace Society ambitious in their goals?


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## The Eagle

*The Palace Society is ambitious but focusing on the Palace.
Other downtown trends are showcased in this Thread for you:








Berlin - downtown recovery and reconstructions


Berlin - downtown recovery This is a new Thread and I call everyone welcome! In this hopefully prosperous thread we will see and talk about the recovery of downtown center. Recovery from the last war to failed city planning's and plain wrong designs of the 1960`s and so on.




www.skyscrapercity.com




*


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## The Eagle

*The cupola will get its eight "prophets' statues" back beginning next year.
The money is now together to add more statues on the roof!








*
Thanks, Konstantindegeer!


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## The Eagle

*The copy of Buddhist Gate is finished for over one and a halve weeks now:



























Hours before:

























*
Thank you, Mantikor! Thank`s!


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## Larrymuffin

The Eagle said:


> *The cupola will get its eight "prophets' statues" back beginning next year.
> The money is now together to add more statues on the roof!
> 
> View attachment 4312428
> *
> Thanks, Konstantindegeer!


Well that is good to hear, I also understand that the great Cartouche Coat of Arms will also be installed in the Spring.


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## Darryl

I'm trying to think back on how many times we've been told that cartouche will go up soon over the last few years. At this point, I'll believe it when I see it. It will go up when it goes up. You really can't believe the different dates put forth, they always come and go.


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## Jalpasi

So like everyone else on this forum I am here to follow the reconstruction of a German palace, not to see Asian art.

BUT to me this is a success. A beautiful piece of art, coherent with the theme of the museum, symbolic of modern Berlin and its openness to the world, monumental without being too big, discreet in its color, rich and fascinating in its details, intriguing for adults and children alike, originally carved in stone like the palace, set in a very clean way on the cobblestone floor, and nicely located next to trees which will grow and give it a nice background.

10/10.


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## Mr Bricks

Looks weird in that location though. It's like something you would see in a Chinatown.


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## Jalpasi

Mr Bricks said:


> Looks weird in that location though. It's like something you would see in a Chinatown.


🤦‍♂️ it's not even Chinese...


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## * Dark Cathedral *

*My issue about the Buddhist Gate is if you can make the time to place this then you can find the time to return the Horse Tamer denkmals to portal IV. *


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## * Dark Cathedral *

*Does anyone know if any of the original artwork, sculptures or furnishings been salvaged from the Berliner Schloss before its destruction???*


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## Steve Gatlin

Mr Bricks said:


> Looks weird in that location though. It's like something you would see in a Chinatown.


I think it would look better in the Berlin Zoo. Anyone taking bets on when the first graffiti appears on it?


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## Mr Bricks

Jalpasi said:


> 🤦‍♂️ it's not even Chinese...


Which is why I never said that is is, but rather that it looks like something one would find in a Western Chinatown.


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## The Mighty Quinn

Darryl said:


> I'm trying to think back on how many times we've been told that cartouche will go up soon over the last few years. At this point, I'll believe it when I see it. It will go up when it goes up. You really can't believe the different dates put forth, they always come and go.


I think I agree with you. This cartouche has been promised and postponed so often over the past couple of years that it's starting to feel as elusive as the end of the rainbow. Am sure some day I'll log on to see photos of it finally in place, but I've long since given up counting down the days.


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## Steve Gatlin

The Mighty Quinn said:


> I think I agree with you. This cartouche has been promised and postponed so often over the past couple of years that it's starting to feel as elusive as the end of the rainbow. Am sure some day I'll log on to see photos of it finally in place, but I've long since given up counting down the days.


There is pavement laying work in front of the dome portal. That might be what is delaying the placement of the cartouche...but that's only a guess as to what's going on.


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## Tiaren

Yes, every big reconstruction step has at least been delayed a couple of times.  None was ever perfectly on time.
The Big Cartouche is a very big reconstruction step. It's a true piece of art and it is *massive*. With its size of 9x9 meters and its sculptural intricacy it's comparable to Victoria on the Victory Column:










Imagine them crafting a masterpiece like this from metal again...it'll take time and maybe a couple setbacks until they get it right.


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## Divaro

Just beautiful. So sad that my country is still destroying beautiful buildings. Glad to see Central Europe rebuilding them.


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## Tiaren

Divaro said:


> Just beautiful. So sad that my country is still destroying beautiful buildings. Glad to see Central Europe rebuilding them.


What buildings is Belgium destroying? I only know that Brussels was pretty bad in that regard up until the 90s...


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## Darryl

...and not to split hairs, but I think Germany is squarely (along with Belgium) in Western Europe. Isn't Central Europe east of Germany?


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## Darryl

Ok, so Germany is in both:









Western Europe - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org












Central Europe - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





My bad.


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## artObserver

Tiaren said:


> What buildings is Belgium destroying? I only know that Brussels was pretty bad in that regard up until the 90s...


One of the recently lost buildings is Miranda Castle. Unfortunately, there were not enough funds for its maintenance. It was first abandoned and subsequently demolished.


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## Tiaren

Darryl said:


> ...and not to split hairs, but I think Germany is squarely (along with Belgium) in Western Europe. Isn't Central Europe east of Germany?





Darryl said:


> Ok, so Germany is in both:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Western Europe - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Central Europe - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My bad.


Politically Germany is considered to be part of Western Europe and geographically it is considered to be part of Central Europe.
Most Germans consider themselves Central European or as they call it mitteleuropäisch. Also culturally, because Germany is closer to Switzerland, Austria and former Prussian or Habsburg territory, now Poland and Czechia, than let's say to France or Belgium.


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## The Eagle

Germans do want to be alone anymore! lol
To the east they say we are east as well, to the west they say
we are west of course and to the rest they say we are Europe center. 
There you have it. Not alone anymore, you see!?
Like a Cameleon. Always on the good side. lol


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## tesseract

Steve Gatlin said:


> I think it would look better in the Berlin Zoo. Anyone taking bets on when the first graffiti appears on it?


Bet you are shaking your spray cans already…


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## Steve Gatlin

tesseract said:


> Bet you are shaking your spray cans already…


Yes! I'm going to spray Orban's ass.


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## Pain Train

Never realized how stupid people can be! Why spend MILLIONS demolishing a structure when it could have been left abandoned? It's in the middle of nowhere and there are many abandoned castles in Europe.



artObserver said:


> One of the recently lost buildings is Miranda Castle. Unfortunately, there were not enough funds for its maintenance. It was first abandoned and subsequently demolished.


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## artObserver

Pain Train said:


> Never realized how stupid people can be! Why spend MILLIONS demolishing a structure when it could have been left abandoned? It's in the middle of nowhere and there are many abandoned castles in Europe.


Probably the reason for the demolition was that the castle was a popular place for unorganized tourism. There was a risk that parts of the structures could collapse and kill tourists.

I recently lost faith in the importance of architecture as a profession (although I still love architecture as a form of art). The reason is that I regularly see new losses, especially in Vienna, London, and New York. Perhaps it makes sense to hope for the new opportunities that digital development offers. I count on the positive impact of new technologies, especially modeling, photogrammetry, 3D printing, and robotics. I hope that the popularization of architecture in the digital space, as well as the automation of heavy physical labor, will make reconstruction cheaper in the future.


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## The Eagle

artObserver said:


> *Probably the reason for the demolition was that the castle was a popular place for unorganized tourism. There was a risk that parts of the structures could collapse and kill tourists.
> 
> I recently lost faith in the importance of architecture as a profession (although I still love architecture as a form of art). The reason is that I regularly see new losses, especially in Vienna, London, and New York. Perhaps it makes sense to hope for the new opportunities that digital development offers. I count on the positive impact of new technologies, especially modeling, photogrammetry, 3D printing, and robotics. I hope that the popularization of architecture in the digital space, as well as the automation of heavy physical labor, will make reconstruction cheaper in the future.
> *


*

Please do not give up! Times may change anytime. 
Here an example of an Gruenderzeitler that was not only renovated,
but extended sideways and upwards:









Building still is a hotel. Located in a town called Bitterfeld. Here the after:


















Right in front of the railway station. It`s a hotel again.
The neighbour was demolished and the build extended 
in the same Neo-renaissance style:









Newbuild wing:
















*
source: 555Farang*

This is only one example. Several German towns are now popping traditional 
buildings out on masses. In Herrenhut and in Amklam traditional is even mandatory.
Furthermore there are areas in Germany where traditional is mandatory
(Pininsula of Sylt) and other places where traditional is mainstream. 
(Oberbayern, Franken and some other pockets)
So please feel better. I would like you to feel better.*


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