# POLAND | High Speed Rail



## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

sotavento said:


> You are completelly wrong in your assessment of the Portuguese/Sapnish bilateral relations ... it was actually the spanish that BEGGED to the portuguese to allow a connection to our huge (and almost totally underused) deep sea harbours and cities.


Really??? I confess that I based my assumption (NOT assessment, please re-read my text...) on the French reality, where the Spanish demand for a couple of high-speed connections (Bordeaux-Basque Country; Barcelona-Perpignan) has been... greeted with dismay, because the French want to link with the core of Europe rather than the coast of Iberia. 

Does this mean that we're speaking mixed-traffic, though? You're speaking of deep sea harbours and I don't suppose the purpose of the new HSLs is to transport sailors on leave. In my book railway lines that allow the "polluding presence" of freight trains do not qualify as HSLs. :nono: 



sotavento said:


> There is no distinction between an upgraded 200km/h railway and a "over" 250km/h "new" HSL???


Well, sotavento, you must admit that there's not so much movement on the, shall we say, "truly highspeed" cross-border front in central and eastern Europe. You have a 300 km/h line between France and Belgium, a Chunnel connection that for other reasons is characterised as "high speed" and very soon you'll have 300+ km/h lines between France and Spain and between Belgium and the Netherlands. 

Care to tell me the name of one cross-border line into, or out of, Germany where trains can travel at even a measly 250 km/h? I think not. The Germans drag their feet and the Poles suffer. hno:


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

hans280 said:


> The Germans drag their feet and the Poles suffer. hno:


if the germans judge (rightly so) that there is not enough need to justify 300++ dedicated line, what makes you think there is enough demand in eastern europe?

come back when all of eastern europe has a gdp/capita above 25000 EUR and than we'll talk

but even then, it will not be feasible to build such a line in the slovenian alps or in rocky croatia

hungary would be an ideal place but it has such a crappy railway infrastructure that even 120 kph _average_ is a dream, even on main lines


bottomline is, 250 kph is good enough, even in japan they only have one section where they can go above 300, the rest of the (newly) built network is around 260-270

europe is much smaller, and it makes more sense to build 250 kph which can be shared with freight and local trains


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

gramercy said:


> if the germans judge (rightly so) that there is not enough need to justify 300++ dedicated line, what makes you think there is enough demand in eastern europe?


What does that have to do with anything? When the French constructed their latest HSL Paris-Strasbourg (...er, OK, not quite to Strasbourg yet) the Director General of SNCF, Louis Gallois, himself publicly said that economically it makes no sense whatsoever - but, for political reasons, the railways must connect north eastern France with Paris within the two-hours range. This is NOT about economics it's about - in the words of Francois Mitterand - "having a vision for Europe and being prepared to pursue it regardless of cost". So... what's your excuse? A petty accountant's mentality? :lol:

OK, seriously now: the Dutch and the Belgians, and the Spanish and the Portuguese, and the French and the Brits have all agreed on a need to connect fast across borders. So, you argue that it makes no sense for Germany to connect fast with Poznan or Prague. Perhaps you're right. But... it makes the same sense - other things equal - for the Germans to trace fast from Cologne to the Belgian border as it makes for the Belgians to trace fast from Liege to the German border. And it makes the same sense - other things equal - for the Germans to trace fast from Frankfurt to Saarbruecken as it makes for the French to trace fast from Paris to Saarbruecken. But alas...

...Die Nachbaren sollen doch gefaelligst zahlen, and in the mean time the petty Germans prefer to spend their money on commuter lines between Krefeld and Uerdingen rather than on proper European projects. Sic Romae Fit... hno: 



gramercy said:


> but even then, it will not be feasible to build such a line in the slovenian alps or in rocky croatia.


That's factually wrong. Spain is much more mountainous than "rocky Croatia" - and the Spaniards were the first in Europe to elevate 350 km/h to the new national standard.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

hans280 said:


> What does that have to do with anything? When the French constructed their latest HSL Paris-Strasbourg (...er, OK, not quite to Strasbourg yet) the Director General of SNCF, Louis Gallois, himself publicly said that economically it makes no sense whatsoever - but, for political reasons, the railways must connect north eastern France with Paris within the two-hours range. This is NOT about economics it's about - in the words of Francois Mitterand - "having a vision for Europe and being prepared to pursue it regardless of cost". So... what's your excuse? A petty accountant's mentality? :lol:


the channel tunnel was built 100 % with private money, two decades have gone by and it is still not turning a profit

politicians (and apparently you) are cavalier with public money, i however prefer _my_ tax money spent in an economically feasible manner

thats "my excuse" :sly:




> That's factually wrong. Spain is much more mountainous than "rocky Croatia" - and the Spaniards were the first in Europe to elevate 350 km/h to the new national standard.


YOU are factually wrong

i did NOT say its impossible, i said it would be unfeasible hno: 
and there is no train that runs 350 in spain today


----

switzerland has arguably the best railroad infrastructure in the world and it is located ideally for high speed inter-european corridors

yet there isn't a single km that runs above 200 kph at the moment, and in the distant future they will only go up to 250 inside the tunnels and 200 on the east-west corridor, and perhaps 200 in valais

AT THE SAME TIME, 100 % of their network has electrification, they have most of their main lines capable of 140-160 kph, even single track ones
AT THE SAME TIME they have a very young fleet of trains that can actually do these "measily" speeds even on lines like Winterthur-St. Gallen full of twists and turns
AT THE SAME TIME they are running a programme to modernize over 600 small stops, providing a 21st century environment for travellers

germany and austraia are doing the same thing, they are spending a lot of money on smaller lines
germany has a huge amount of their main lines going at 160-200 kph, which servers the local destinations, something they have to consider since they have a _very_ different configuration of settlements, not to mention almost 3x the population density of france and spain


look at some remote french spanish italian or for that matter british lines
lines which serve small and medium sized towns
most of them have no electrification, no speed above 120-140 kph, not to mention the run-down rolling stock (look at some southern italian lines serving towns with populations above 100.000 ppl and with trainsets older than 40 years. its a disgrace)




i wouldnt mind being able to travel from warsaw to palermo 360 kph, but does it make sense when southern italy has a problem with sewage and garbage in the 21st century???


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

hans280 said:


> Really??? I confess that I based my assumption (NOT assessment, please re-read my text...) on the French reality, where the Spanish demand for a couple of high-speed connections (Bordeaux-Basque Country; Barcelona-Perpignan) has been... greeted with dismay, because the French want to link with the core of Europe rather than the coast of Iberia.
> 
> Does this mean that we're speaking mixed-traffic, though? You're speaking of deep sea harbours and I don't suppose the purpose of the new HSLs is to transport sailors on leave. In my book railway lines that allow the "polluding presence" of freight trains do not qualify as HSLs. :nono:


As I told you time and time again ... you don't have all the books in your library. :cheers:

In fact the Lisboa-Madrid "corridor" will be a double "mixed-traffic" one ... 

- they are going to build a new major airport near poceirão
- they are building a 9km long 4 track (2 for LAV + 2 for conventional use) bridge out of lisboa
- From Lisboa to Poceirão there will be 2 conventional railways and 1 HSL (all double track) 
- from Poceirão to the border in Badajoz there will be a 350km/h HSL and a conventional railway ... for 1/2 their lenght they will share the same path (3 or 4 tracks depending on the section)
- the 350km/h HSL tracks are indeed "mixed-traffic" themselves ... so lets just wait and see what cames out of it 

French have LaPoste
Plans over here are for express containers and other light cargo trains to use the HSL :dunno:

And by the way ... one of the earlier motives for a dedicated (UIC gauge) rail link to central europe was precisely that Autoeuropa (a VW factory south of lisboa) has a rolling-carrousell of trucks full with auto-parts running 24/7 all year long ... going all the way from here to ... poland. :cheers:



> Well, sotavento, you must admit that there's not so much movement on the, shall we say, "truly highspeed" cross-border front in central and eastern Europe. You have a 300 km/h line between France and Belgium, a Chunnel connection that for other reasons is characterised as "high speed" and very soon you'll have 300+ km/h lines between France and Spain and between Belgium and the Netherlands.
> 
> Care to tell me the name of one cross-border line into, or out of, Germany where trains can travel at even a measly 250 km/h? I think not. The Germans drag their feet and the Poles suffer. hno:


One of the problems with european interoperability is that old countries don't forget easily about the old wars. :cheers:

But nonetheless there are plenty o Eurocity and other international express trains.

and remember ... usually the terrains in the borders are rough or the old route allows speeds as high as 140/160 km/h on both sides ... so the need for a "new" link wasn't there in the first place. 

No comparison with the portuguese/spanish (too many sub-par connections and/or even missing) and especiallynothing like spain/france gauge gap. hno:

For example our "good" connection to Spain is at 160km/h for half its lenght and the other half is a large sucession of metalic bridges and tunnels (speed average of 80/100 km/h for km and km) ... it was renewed in 1995 ... precisely folowing its renewall it was decided to invest in tilting technology ... that railway (some 300km long) could be at speeds of 250km/h nowadays ... but it isn't. hno: 

that Warsaw-Berlin-Hamburg seems like a prime candidate for tilting trains ... could use the "old" infraestructure to its limits ... and then some more. 

Except for some "plains" in some areas where the "old" rail infraestructure is decrepit or even abandoned but nonetheless allows for good speeds if renewed right (like most of the UK countryside for example) new HSL construction is not that important ... 

The Spanish only built their feeder railways to over 250km/h (linking major urban areas to each other) ... the rest gets 200/250 km/h 
The french do the same ...

Berlin-Warsaw is roughly the same distance that Lisboa-Madrid ... over here it completely flat land and no urban development at all (5 or 6 major cities in between but nonetheless they are all that exists) ... go check on what lays between Berlin (wich is actuall only 80km away from the polish border) and Warsaw. :cheers:


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

gramercy said:


> the channel tunnel was built 100 % with private money, two decades have gone by and it is still not turning a profit
> 
> politicians (and apparently you) are cavalier with public money, i however prefer _my_ tax money spent in an economically feasible manner


Two observations: (1) the highway between Stockholm and Gothenburg was built - what? - four decades ago and it is still not turning a profit. It wasn't built to turn a profit, it was built to yield societal benefits. I am personally sorry that so many private investors were bamboozled into paying for the Chunnel the main benefits of which are societal and should have been financed accordingly; (2) I am used to living in a high-spending and high-taxing country. It's OK, I've gotten used to pay at least 55% tax. However, I'd much rather pay all this money into a modern infrastructure than to the guys who stand drinking beer all day down by my local supermarket, the "unemployed" single mothers who never have and never will work, people who retire at 51 because of "back problems"... In the words of your great hero (?) Margaret Thatcher, I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! :wallbash: 



gramercy said:


> switzerland has arguably the best railroad infrastructure in the world and it is located ideally for high speed inter-european corridors
> 
> yet there isn't a single km that runs above 200 kph at the moment, and in the distant future they will only go up to 250 inside the tunnels and 200 on the east-west corridor, and perhaps 200 in valais.


Before you make Switzerland the hero of your story, please consider that they have some of the slowest intercity trains in the whole of western Europe (measured as average speeds over distances of 100, 200 and 300 km). OK, this is partly because of their topography, but it also reflects the fact that the trains stop at every "Milchkanne" and, not least, a very conservative time schedule in a country where people totally freak out over delays. 



gramercy said:


> i wouldnt mind being able to travel from warsaw to palermo 360 kph, but does it make sense when southern italy has a problem with sewage and garbage in the 21st century???


I'd very much suggest a "French solution" for the Mezzogiorno: cities and regions that are persistent net recipients of subsidies from the rest of the country get starved of infrastructure so as to induce people to move to parts of the country that ARE economically viable. 

Returning to the Polish issue, my point is about reciprocity. I find it shameful to see one of the richest countries in Europe (Germany now, not Italy! :lol turn its back on all neighbours because the roads of Sachsen and the railways of Westphalen are more important that knitting the European construction together. Only last week I sat in a Thalys rattling through the outskirts of Aachen - commuter rails, and old at that - at about 60 km/h. Some passengers were eyeing their watches nervously, noting an already significant delay and asking the Belgian train steward if they were to miss their connections in Paris. Don't worry, he responded. Delays that's on these overcrowded tracks. As soon as we're south of Brussels the French will win most of the time back. Well...

...had I been German I would have hanged myself. hno:


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

spending money on things that will _never_ turn profit should remain in the domain of the chinese and the americans


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

gramercy said:


> if the germans judge (rightly so) that there is not enough need to justify 300++ dedicated line, what makes you think there is enough demand in eastern europe?
> 
> come back when all of eastern europe has a gdp/capita above 25000 EUR and than we'll talk
> 
> ...





gramercy said:


> the channel tunnel was built 100 % with private money, two decades have gone by and it is still not turning a profit
> 
> politicians (and apparently you) are cavalier with public money, i however prefer _my_ tax money spent in an economically feasible manner
> 
> ...


Trains dont run at 350km/h in spain because ERTMS2 is not yet operational ... no reason other than that. hno:

There are no "run down" rolling stock nor slow running tracks left in Spain. :lol:

Poland is in the same situation as spain ... EU money is available and theres a _"need"_ to create new HSL corridors to bring its larger cities together ... and Berlin/Wien are just around the corner.

Switzerland is a very different case ... they have a huge network of pendular and doubledecker intercity trains.

the UK is in a go-dont-go phase in wich they have "sufferable" intercity at 200km/h and are indecisive between pushing it till 225km/h or going overboard and create a 300km/h North-South trunk HSL.

But as distances get longer and services increase ... 200km/h suffice to connect cities less than 100km apart from each other. hno:


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

gramercy said:


> spending money on things that will _never_ turn profit should remain in the domain of the chinese and the americans


Lisboa-Porto = 300km

- 2 highways (one 100% tolled , other partially tolled) = both _collapsed_ (large sections with more than 100.000 daily veicles in their entire lenghts) ... 3rd under construction ... the companies that explore the Tolled highways make huge profits every year (both are even going to enter the bid for the HSL railways) 

- 1 mainline railway ... 220km/h intercity = 2h30 travel time = 4 million passengers per year ... dedicated HSL to be buit in the near future (1h15 travel time ... 1h possible in the near future) 

- air connection has "only" 500.000 passengers per year (only people in transit use the low fare transfer)

hno:

Just looking at the Polish railways maps make one wonder why suck "small" upgrading plans ... 

the "straight" line from Gdansk-Gorzow-berlin seems rather ... I don't even know how to call it ...


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

a 100 km journey takes
30 min @ 200 kph
24 min @ 250 kph
20 min @ 300 kph

the distance between geneva and zurich is a little over 200 km
you do the math

the higher the speed, the more it costs
to build (curvature, materials)
to maintain (trackwear)
to run (air resistance, rolling stock, signalling)

not to mention the fact that 250 kph lines can be mixed with freight


there are situations where 200-250 kph is enough considering that the vast majority of passangers (in switzerland, in germany, in austria) only travel an average of ~200 kms or less


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

^^ Gramercy, now you really ARE talking out of the top of your hat. I mean... I haven't verified whether Geneva-Zurich is really 200 km long, but I HAVE verified that the best-travel time between those two Swiss cities is 2h42. Go calculate the average speed for yourself.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

hans280 said:


> ^^ Gramercy, now you really ARE talking out of the top of your hat. I mean... I haven't verified whether Geneva-Zurich is really 200 km long, but I HAVE verified that the best-travel time between those two Swiss cities is 2h42. Go calculate the average speed for yourself.


we are talking about hypothetical speeds and hypothetical high speed lines _and_ why _sometimes_ speed isnt everything

please read posts above and make the connection before you make accusations


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

Dear sotavento, 

(Do you mind if I just call you sota? I have a problem with wind...:lol 

Fine, I don't disagree with most of the points you're making, though I would like to, shall we say, make a couple of drafting suggestions. 



sotavento said:


> French have LaPoste. Plans over here are for express containers and other light cargo trains to use the HSL


Well yes, but... the TGV Poste travels only overnight - and at speeds that are identical to the passenger TGVs. (OK, almost identical: it's the first-generation TGVs units traveling at only 270 km/h.) If your "express containers" will do likewise, fine. I just say I have a problem - a big problem - with HS on lines that are also used by trains traveling at speeds beneath 200 km/h. If you want to know why, please consider the nasty accidents the Germans have had on lines with "Mischverkehr". As far as I know neither the Japanese nor the French have had anything quite of the kind on their dedicated high-speed tracks. - And, before you ask, I have the same problem with the new line between Perpignan and Figueras, which is also mixed traffic. 



sotavento said:


> and remember ... usually the terrains in the borders are rough or the old route allows speeds as high as 140/160 km/h on both sides


I totally agree with you. It is scandalous that, here in the 21st century, there are still main lines that operate at such low speeds. 



sotavento said:


> that Warsaw-Berlin-Hamburg seems like a prime candidate for tilting trains ... could use the "old" infraestructure to its limits ... and then some more.


Mwell... the Germans are supposed to have blessed the world and themselves with a "Superausbaustrecke" between Hamburg and Berlin, where trains can travel at 230 km/h on renovated tracks. If so, the need for tilting trains may be limited - although the new Pendolino ETR460 does of course run 250 km/h and so might be of use. 



sotavento said:


> ... go check on what lays between Berlin (wich is actuall only 80km away from the polish border) and Warsaw. :cheers:


The topography and geography of the area between Berlin and Frankfurt (Oder) is not unlike what you have between Brussels and the border with France, or what you have between London and Folkstone. This just goes to show how much can be achieved through the pressure of determined neighbours. :cheers:


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

hans280 said:


> I totally agree with you. It is scandalous that, here in the 21st century, there are still main lines that operate at such low speeds.


its the end of the world hno:

have you ever designed a timetable WITH 80-120 kph freight and 140 local and 160 kph intercity traffic sharing the SAME track?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

I think freight trains are more common at night. Besides,I dont think every freight train operates according to timetables,but when they get full. Therefore,I think they are allowed to travel only in "windows",and thats why one can see so much freight trains in small stations.

This is why there are no freight trains on dedicated lines,they cant stop and let other trains pass,as dedicated lines are less likely to have 4-8 track stations in the middle of nowhere.


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## gramercy (Dec 25, 2008)

RawLee said:


> I think freight trains are more common at night. Besides,I dont think every freight train operates according to timetables,but when they get full. Therefore,I think they are allowed to travel only in "windows",and thats why one can see so much freight trains in small stations.
> 
> This is why there are no freight trains on dedicated lines,they cant stop and let other trains pass,as dedicated lines are less likely to have 4-8 track stations in the middle of nowhere.


yea

and thats precisely why we should only build HSL above 250 (without freight) when its absolutely certain that theres gonna be enough demand for passenger-only traffic 
(a simple rule would be a minimum of 50.000 ppl / direction / day on a current line. that is long-distance travellers, we should exclude suburban passengers)

and this is why it makes no sense to upgrade old lines above say 160 without doubling the tracks (austrian style)


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## davsot (Dec 27, 2008)

nice map.


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## LMB (May 5, 2008)

hans280 said:


> Only last week I sat in a Thalys rattling through the outskirts of Aachen - commuter rails, and old at that - at about 60 km/h.


I can't stop the feeling you're unfairly picking here at Aachen. Wasn't the Buschtunnel still in renovation?


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## LMB (May 5, 2008)

*PKP on speed, ocassionally puffing some pot*



E2rdEm said:


> http://images46.fotosik.pl/5/1c796a79a1f76d42.png


Looking at the map you posted I cannot help but to feel the guys at PKP are constantly high. I don't know what that is they are sniffing, but it has definitely has incapacitated their analytical abilities. 

In short, this line is IMHO completely unnecessary in present situation, i.e. there are much better ways to spend the money. 

In long, this is a goddamn manipulation, probably intended just to provide these guys with something to do, and to get into attention of populist politicians. 

Looking at the map again, I can point a few "wonderful" manipulations: 
* Poznań- Gorzów... great, but there is NO train connection. Well, in theory one could go to Krzyż and transfer, but locals from FGW never do that - they take the bus. 

* Poznań - Zielona Góra - there is a connection, but it requires the train direction to be switched, it takes some 30 minutes?, so instead of sniffing speed guys at PKP, spend the money on improving the situation by e.g. building an additional pass around Czersk, so that trains can skip it, or at least go through without the change of direction. 

* Warszawa - Lublin - heard that section needs urgent upgrade

* Łódź - Katowice : poor connection, there are direct trains, but one needs usually 1 or 2 transfers

* Poznań- Gdańsk: sections limited to 70km/h

It's clear that the entire network needs an upgrade, some parts are quite good, some horrible, so the money would be best spent on anything that needs an urgent improvement, and not on some sick, and possibly not really required HST. 

By the way, a small comparison: 
Frankfurt - Dresden IC: average speed 75km/h
Poznań-Wrocław D: 72km/h

OK, I am comparing here one of the best sections in Poland (still under improvement) with God-knows-what in Germany. It's comparable to travelling by car. Other sections are just hardly faster than car, so it's these sections that need attention, not some friggin' HST! 

And, besides, I am personally convinced that our national railway administration in its present shape is simply unable to build and administer such a project.


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## LMB (May 5, 2008)

hans280 said:


> So... what's the point in drawing a couple of HS tracks to the border? The train will continue at 120 km/h on the other side. hno:


(slightly OT)

That was the reality some years ago (2001?), to my major surprise. The train on the Polish side had much higher average than in East Germany. I heard they were "repairing" something later, but judging by the travel time - not much has changed. 

I guess Germans have different principals.


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## rakcancer (Sep 2, 2010)

That is nice but this info fits better other thread: _Polish railways_. High speed rail is a different project in Poland.


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

rakcancer said:


> That is nice but this info fits better other thread: _Polish railways_. High speed rail is a different project in Poland.


Thanks, it was to sort the last news about Unreal's post above.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

rakcancer said:


> That is nice but this info fits better other thread: _Polish railways_. High speed rail is a different project in Poland.


ED250 on CMK line is a high speed railway indeed. So imo discussions on this matter can continue in this thread!


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

what is current situation with Pendolinos? how many of them have been delivered? when is commercial service expected to begin? what about complaints, are orders cancelled, or what is happening?


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Excellent choice, Poland!

It's a beautiful machine!


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## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

x-type said:


> what is current situation with Pendolinos? how many of them have been delivered? when is commercial service expected to begin? what about complaints, are orders cancelled, or what is happening?


Commercial service is scheduled for December 2014. No orders were cancelled, all 20 will be delivered by December. Trains will travel between Gdynia/Gdańsk-Warsaw-Kraków-Rzeszów, Warsaw-Wrocław, Warsaw-Łódź-Katowice.


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

Map of service with possible extensions in dotted lines.
Rainbow line is highspeed CMK.


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Commercial service is scheduled for December 2014. No orders were cancelled, all 20 will be delivered by December. Trains will travel between Gdynia/Gdańsk-Warsaw-Kraków-Rzeszów, Warsaw-Wrocław, Warsaw-Łódź-Katowice.


No Łódź Im afraid...


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## m4rcin (May 5, 2006)

Sorry for a noob question but why is Poznan not included in this?


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

m4rcin said:


> Sorry for a noob question but why is Poznan not included in this?


There's no railway between Warsaw and Poznań that allowes speeds over 160 kph, hence no point in using ED250 trains


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## m4rcin (May 5, 2006)

Dzienks  Any plans to upgrade it to >160?


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

m4rcin said:


> Dzienks  Any plans to upgrade it to >160?


That I dont know.
It is unclear when the Y project will start, which might determine upgrade of current Warsaw - Poznan line with speeds over 160kph.


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## Fallout (Sep 11, 2002)

Balsen said:


> No Łódź Im afraid...


I still don't get how trains from Warsaw to Wroclaw can omit Lodz. Those three lie in a straight line!


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

Fallout said:


> I still don't get how trains from Warsaw to Wroclaw can omit Lodz. Those three lie in a straight line!


True, but there's no fast tracks between Wroclaw - Lodz - Warsaw,
so no point in using faster trains on that service.


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

Balsen said:


> ED250 on CMK line is a high speed railway indeed. So imo discussions on this matter can continue in this thread!


I love the Pendolino...my second favorite type of High Speed train after the Siemens Velaro. 

I notice there is no fence around the tracks, why is that? I hope some large animal doesn't run across the tracks.


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

FM 2258 said:


> I love the Pendolino...my second favorite type of High Speed train after the Siemens Velaro.
> 
> I notice there is no fence around the tracks, why is that? I hope some large animal doesn't run across the tracks.


Certain sections are fenced already.

CMK line is still getting upgraded for commencing the service in december.






The fence will be built in required sections.


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## x-type (Aug 19, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Commercial service is scheduled for December 2014. No orders were cancelled, all 20 will be delivered by December. Trains will travel between Gdynia/Gdańsk-Warsaw-Kraków-Rzeszów, Warsaw-Wrocław, Warsaw-Łódź-Katowice.


what will be exact rout of Warszawa - Wrocław? via Chęstochowa, Lubliniec and Opole or something else?


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

x-type said:


> what will be exact rout of Warszawa - Wrocław? via Chęstochowa, Lubliniec and Opole or something else?


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## jonasry (Feb 6, 2011)

Are there any preliminary timetable? I'm curious on how much travel time will be reduced for tpthe Gdansk-Warsaw route.


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)

@Gusiluz

Producer markets train ETR610 (ED250) as Pendolino - even if it doesn't have tilting system, so this is where the name comes from.


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

^^ Well, precisely the ETR 600 Pendolino circulating at 250 in the Italian Direttisima with 3 kV with the same power. Other trains at 300.

The maximum speed with ETCS 1 is 300 km/h, with ETCS 2 (indispensable GSM-R): 350.

Until now I always read 230 km/h in the CMK line in 2015.


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

Hy guys, congratilations for the line. 



arct said:


> ^^ PKP AFAIK isn't going to upgrade ETCS 1 to 2 on CMK. *ETCS 1 is enough to reach 250 km/h. * BTW.
> 
> The biggest problem with reaching 250km/h is power supply. (we should change voltage from 3kV DC to 25 kV AC)


+1

ETCS level 1 is suficient for 250 kph if there is not too much traffic, how much trips per hour now and how much ones are expected for next periods?


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## Richard_P (Jan 2, 2014)

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ Well, precisely the ETR 600 Pendolino circulating at 250 in the Italian Direttisima with 3 kV with the same power.


 Yes, the Dirretsima is direct comparison to CMK (Zawiercie - Grodzisk) in Poland mostly due to speed and power supply. But there are many differences between Italian catenaries and Polish ones. In short traction wires in Poland have smaller cross section, catenaries are more flexible and masts are spaced a bit further apart. But despite that tests with Pendolino train sets proved that maximum reached for that setting is 293 km/h while stable run was possible at 250 km/h. But the biggest concern was too low power output of substations due to which two coupled train sets reached only 240 km/h. Additional substations are already on order so from that point everything should be safe and sound for 250 km/h within few years.



> Other trains at 300


 To My knowledge Dirretsima is still allowed for only 250 km/h for all trains. I've only read that FS is studding possibility of rising power supply to allow 300 km/h operations under 3kV DC as an option to re-electrification.



> Until now I always read 230 km/h in the CMK line in 2015.


 Answer for that question is problematic because there are numerous problems and unfortunately also politics involved.

1. As I've written above in a few years when all is finished catenaries and power supply will be fit for 250 km/h. 
2. ETCS level 1 is a problem due to stopping distance determined by legacy signalling so here two solutions are evaluated in which maximum speed could be raised to 230 km/h only for Pendolinos due to their shorter stopping distance. Second solution is migration to ERTMS level 2 basically allowing 250 km/h operations.
3. PKP PLK policy is a bit protective so company is more keen to lower speed of 230 km/h and finally was willing to re-electrify CMK line with AC power supply (2x 25 kV 50 Hz) which wouldn't be any time soon.
4. Alstom was even more precautious as reportedly in Pendolino specifications in 3 kV DC only 220 km/h maximum speed was specified (initially this wasn't seen as a problem because CMK re-electrification was evaluated thus trains were fitted also with AC traction equipment allowing for 250 km/h).

So there are numerous problems but it is possible that in a few years 250 km/h may be achievable.



Battuta said:


> how much trips per hour now and how much ones are expected for next periods


 Regarding CMK it is something like 4 pairs an hour. The most challenging is fact that Katowice - Warszawa and Kraków - Warszawa trains run in a 5 minute gap between them because in Warszawa they either go alternately to Gdańsk or offer connections to Gdańsk.


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

^^ Yes, true, the Direttissima only supports 250. I had no hand my notes and I thought of Wikipedia. Error.

With ERTMS can get those speeds although the distances between signals are short, as in Germany.

Thanks for the explanations.


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

Richard_P said:


> So there are numerous problems but it is possible that in a few years 250 km/h may be achievable.
> 
> 
> Regarding CMK it is something like 4 pairs an hour. *The most challenging is fact that Katowice - Warszawa and Kraków - Warszawa trains run in a 5 minute* gap between them because in Warszawa they either go alternately to Gdańsk or offer connections to Gdańsk.



Euh.. 5 minutes i think GSM-R will be necessary to enhance the speed but in waiting speed can be increased without GSM-R on some trips when traffic is low at 6 am for instance it will give the oportunity to people to reach their office in 2 hours. I think Many High speed trains are faster in many countries early in the morning for these reasons.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/polish-borders-high-speed-rail-study.html
> 
> *Polish borders high speed rail study*
> 23 Dec 2014
> ...


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

350 km/h line Berlin-Poznan-Warsaw. Yes, please!


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## dexter2 (Apr 5, 2009)

Berlin-Poznań-Łódź-Warsaw


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

^^

Euh.. I was bad in geography 











Source : http://www.reinisfischer.com/first-high-speed-railway-launched-poland


Question what is colored in blue in the map above?


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## arct (Jul 18, 2013)

^^
It's Central Rail Line (CMK). Belive or not, CMK was bulid as second in the world (and firsy in Europe)High Speed Line(!)- 5years before first LGV. Whole engineering of CMK is full of geniousness. Think, how perspectively you had to think, that 40 years later it will allow trains like Pendolino to achive world record in their class (and all of that in communist era!) And that's only one of many examples. Here you can find more anout it:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKP_rail_line_4


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

arct said:


> ^^
> It's Central Rail Line (CMK). Belive or not, *CMK was bulid as second in the world (and firsy in Europe)High Speed Line*(!)- 5years before first LGV. Whole engineering of CMK is full of geniousness. Think, how perspectively you had to think, that 40 years later it will allow trains like Pendolino to achive world record in their class (and all of that in communist era!) And that's only one of many examples. Here you can find more anout it:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKP_rail_line_4


Oh yes finished even before HSR Roma-Firenze !! 

No i did not know it before..


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## eu01 (Oct 14, 2005)

Taking into account the gloomy times, it was a real miracle that the CMK project in its modern shape became ever accepted. As the only priority for the communist regime was freight (to transport mostly loads of coal from Silesia region to the ports of Baltic sea), the engineers had to convince (or to cheat if you prefer) the ruling party to get these parameters approved. And indeed, for many years after its completion the line was used almost exclusively for freight.


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## tunnel owl (May 19, 2013)

eu01 said:


> Taking into account the gloomy times, it was a real miracle that the CMK project in its modern shape became ever accepted. As the only priority for the communist regime was freight (to transport mostly loads of coal from Silesia region to the ports of Baltic sea)...


The original plan was to extend CMK near to Gdansk to create a fast link to the port, as the article says. There must be stub-tracks north of the merger between CMK and the Warsaw-railway heading further north ending nowhere. Don´t know if they still exist. Together with the not finished Olympic highway near to this tracks, the area included two not finished projects of that time.

Edit: The tracks do not exist anymore, but the right-of-way is clearly visibible in Bing. Even the new A2 is prepared for crossing, west of MOP Baranów.


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## arct (Jul 18, 2013)

AFAIK The crossing is prepared for Ygrek HSL, not Amber CMK.


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## tunnel owl (May 19, 2013)

arct said:


> AFAIK The crossing is prepared for Ygrek HSL, not Amber CMK.


You must be right. I think CMK going further north is history.

Kind regards


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## kwasny07 (Dec 29, 2013)

Pendolino on the CMK


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)




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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

kwasny07 said:


> Pendolino on the CMK <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5cW4b5xSGc">YouTube Link</a> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J32VyO_-Ndk">YouTube Link</a>


:cheers:

In Xmas mode


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)




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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

Balsen said:


>



Goes very fast, 


Did someone calculated the speed by Waze here ? 

N.B. to add the speedometer in Waze it is possible to do as folows :

Touch the menu button menu icon and then the Settings wheel settings icon .
Click on Display settings.
Verify that Speedometer is ON.

more infos here 


To take a screenchot of the displayed speed by Iphone click both on home and start buttons


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## Battuta (Feb 16, 2012)

.


*PKP Pendolino completes first million kilometres in service*
BY NEWSIN RAIL NEWS · ROLLING STOCK AND COMPONENTS — *3 MAR, 2015*









Poland’s InterCity Express Premium Pendolino has completed one million kilometres in passenger operation.

Since the launch of the service in December, the new fleet has completed around 2,000 journeys between the cities of Warsaw, Gdansk, Gdynia, Krakow, Katowice and Wroclaw.

The Pendolinos are Poland’s first high-speed trains. During dynamic testing, the train broke both the Polish and Pendolino speed record, reaching a top speed of 293 km\h.

Alstom maintains the IC Pendolinos at its Olszynka Grochowska depot in Warsaw.

Valerie Chardon, managing director Alstom Transport for Central and Eastern Europe, said: “Alstom is glad that PKP’s IC Pendolino fleet has successfully reached 1 million km in just two months without any major problems. This confirms Alstom’s expertise in the high-speed train sector as well as its maintenance capabilities.”


http://www.globalrailnews.com/blog/...ompletes-first-million-kilometres-in-service/


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## Balsen (Jul 6, 2003)




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## rakcancer (Sep 2, 2010)

Pesa Dart 200km/h - test: 



dexter2 said:


> https://www.facebook.com/PESAbydgos...8537400560075/842556509158158/?type=1&theater


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## rakcancer (Sep 2, 2010)

Pendolino:


dj4life said:


> Pendolino trains in action:


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## IanCleverly (Nov 24, 2010)

Little segment of what *I think* aired on some Hungarian TV programme recently:-






(English language captions available)


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

"We have the record for central and eastern Europe in terms of maximum speed"

Germany is also part of Central Europe.


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## Kpc21 (Oct 3, 2008)

They meant the post-communist countries. For us in Poland Germany is the West.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Kpc21 said:


> They meant the post-communist countries. For us in Poland Germany is the West.


The Iron Curtain hung right across Germany though.


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## panthiocodin (Mar 18, 2010)

IanCleverly said:


> Little segment of what *I think* aired on some Hungarian TV programme recently:-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome stuff by the way any one can translate into polish as my hungarian is crap?:nuts:


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## Iluminat (Jan 16, 2008)

KingNick said:


> Germany is also part of Central Europe.





flierfy said:


> The Iron Curtain hung right across Germany though.


CEE seem to be mostly used in relation to the V4 countries, sometimes also Romania, Slovenia or Lithuania. The term is quite useful even if it's not completely accurate for geographical or historical reasons.
East Germany is usually not counted because it was absorbed.


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## hajper (Jul 9, 2015)

panthiocodin said:


> Awesome stuff by the way any one can translate into polish as my hungarian is crap?:nuts:


You can use english subtitles


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## The Wild Boy (Apr 5, 2020)




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## The Wild Boy (Apr 5, 2020)

Well it seems that finally, finally Poland is entering in a new era. An era of more green solutions, an era of alternatives, an era of a massive rail redevelopment, an era of new high - speed rail projects. I'm so happy for Poland, and i wish all the best luck! 

Here's a well - made video by the popular public - transport youtuber "Railways Explained" 

Enjoy! 






This project would go along very nicely with rail - baltica and other high - speed railway projects. 

I hope that there are modifications done in the future, and that we also see a new high - speed rail corridor planned towards Berlin too. Since i believe that that is already part of the TEN - T core network, there should be a high - speed rail to Germany too. 

There are more stuff posted in the Polish railways thread, and you can have a look below. But since there is already a thread for high - speed rail in Poland, I say that we use this thread to discuss sorely about high - speed rail, the future plans, and keep the other thread for just other normal - railway lines, that would work best. 



LtBk said:


> Poland to upgrade railway line Szczecin to the German border
> 
> 
> To achieve a shorter travel time for passengers and a more efficient transportation of goods between Szczecin Główny and Germany, Polish railway manager PKP PKL will modernise the railway line to the Polish-German border. Works on the line including a second track as well as electrification and...
> ...


You can also scroll down and find more information in the same thread. 

I would like to see a map of how all those high - speed rail lines + improvements (with speeds shown on the map), would look like. It would make the discussion easier, and we would visually see where what goes 

I was eagerly awaiting this moment. After 2030's as less and less motorway projects will get built and executed, as Poland will near it's goal, it is the perfect time to pull out such a move and by the end of the 2040's build most (if not all) of the envisioned high - speed rail lines and improvements.


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## Tonik1 (May 4, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552658154973908993

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1552292469395673088


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## VITORIA MAN (Jan 31, 2013)

Generation gap by Maciek Lulko, en Flickr


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## geogregor (Dec 11, 2006)

VITORIA MAN said:


> Generation gap by Maciek Lulko, en Flickr


Fantastic contrast. The old "kibels" (EN57s) never die


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## Tonik1 (May 4, 2018)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1557337394046795776


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## AAPMBerlin (Aug 16, 2008)

Sorry, I don´t understand polish... What does the post contain?


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## Tonik1 (May 4, 2018)

It means that W51 variant is considered to be the best (shortest, cheapest) by investor (CPK), and will be used with 2 other variants in application for environmental decision/permit.

It's around 200km long section between Wrocław and Łódź (Red line on the map)


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## geogregor (Dec 11, 2006)

AAPMBerlin said:


> Sorry, I don´t understand polish... What does the post contain?





Tonik1 said:


> It means that W51 variant is considered to be the best (shortest, cheapest) by investor (CPK), and will be used with 2 other variants in application for enviromental permit.
> 
> It's around 200km long section between Wrocław and Łódź (Red line on the map)


In future I suggest providing short translation when posting Polish language content. 

I know we all now have web translators but it is international section of the forum and English is the main language in this thread.


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## sponge_bob (Aug 11, 2013)

Is it a new high speed line Wroclaw -Lodz or some old and some new alignments??


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## Tonik1 (May 4, 2018)

Brand new HSR line (in the past part of the so called Y HSR project: Warsaw-Lodz-Wroclaw/Poznan)


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## Proterra (Mar 17, 2011)

Tonik1 said:


> It means that W51 variant is considered to be the best (shortest, cheapest) by investor (CPK), and will be used with 2 other variants in application for environmental decision/permit.
> 
> It's around 200km long section between Wrocław and Łódź (Red line on the map)


Why is there a passenger station planned in Wodzierady and a technical station planned in Szadek? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Or is there some high-ranking politician living in Wodzierady?


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## geogregor (Dec 11, 2006)

Proterra said:


> Why is there a passenger station planned in Wodzierady and a technical station planned in Szadek? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Or is there some high-ranking politician living in Wodzierady?


The question is what's the point of passenger station in any of those locations...


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## krzysiek997 (Nov 13, 2020)

geogregor said:


> The question is what's the point of passenger station in any of those locations...


None of this stations are ever needed. (Kępno and Sieradz debatable) 
Two mentioned may be useful for some of the trains but definitely not for every single one going Łódź<-> Wrocław which would be plain waste of time.


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## Proterra (Mar 17, 2011)

geogregor said:


> The question is what's the point of passenger station in any of those locations...


At least, with Szadek there's use as a connecting station, for passengers wishing to change trains north or south along Węglówka. I would actually argue that Kępno and Sieradz would be useful because those places are regional centres in their own right, although they may need to be constructed as long passing loops, so that the line could be both used for "regional" HSR, with stops in W-wa Centralna, Zachodnia, Pruszków, CPK, Brzeziny, Łódź Fabryczna, Łódź Kaliska, Szadek, Sieradz, Kępno and Wrocław Główny with speeds to 250 km/h, as well as an "express" HSR which only stops in W-wa, CPK, Łódź and Wrocław and runs at 320-350 km/h.


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## kokomo (Sep 29, 2009)

geogregor said:


> The question is what's the point of passenger station in any of those locations...


Are we dealing with potential "gare des betteraves" cases?


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## Gintaras (Sep 19, 2019)

*Kraków to Warsaw with PKP Pendolino high-speed train*


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## dyonisien (Aug 30, 2010)

Gintaras said:


> *Kraków to Warsaw with PKP Pendolino high-speed train*


Any acceleration is always welcome, but if, almost 60 years ago, 210km/h on Shinkansen could be called "high speed", in 2022 200km/h is barely "high speed"...


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

If 200 km/h were considered high-speed 60 years ago, then it is still high-speed today.


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## The Wild Boy (Apr 5, 2020)

I think in the EU 200 km/h is only considered high speed for existing upgraded lines, and anything above (including) 250 km/h on new rail lines is considered high speed rail. 

I would consider the PKP Pendolino Service running on the CMK high speed, since it practically started on a line which once served trains with max speed of 140 - 160 km/h, but throughout the years it turns out that the CMK could handle speeds of even 300 km/h (a speed record was actually achieved some years ago, coming short under 300 km/h). Eventually as I've read the goal is to run the Pendolino service at 250 km/h and maybe one day at speeds of up to 300 km/h. 

The CMK line was ahead of it's time. Built in the early 70's, it could probably even be regarded as the world's 2nd high speed rail line (the first one being the Shinkansen in Japan), but it never really got to be the world's 2nd high speed railway line, since the full potential of the CMK was not used back then, and the CMK was actually mainly intended for cargo rail traffic. 

I wonder tho, when did they discover that the CMK could handle high - speeds? Was it during communism in Poland, was it afterwards? Or was it already known that the CMK could handle high speeds when it got built?


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## krzysiek997 (Nov 13, 2020)

The Wild Boy said:


> I think in the EU 200 km/h is only considered high speed for existing upgraded lines, and anything above (including) 250 km/h on new rail lines is considered high speed rail.
> 
> I would consider the PKP Pendolino Service running on the CMK high speed, since it practically started on a line which once served trains with max speed of 140 - 160 km/h, but throughout the years it turns out that the CMK could handle speeds of even 300 km/h (a speed record was actually achieved some years ago, coming short under 300 km/h). Eventually as I've read the goal is to run the Pendolino service at 250 km/h and maybe one day at speeds of up to 300 km/h.
> 
> ...


Wiki quote:

The Central Railway Main Line was designed in the years 1970-1971 and it was planned to adapt it to the speed of 200-250 km/h already during the design process, hence the appropriately large curve radius - 4000 m - and a sufficiently large distance between the track axes - 4.5 m

EDIT:
In the 1970s, it was planned to extend the CMK line to the north. It was assumed that the route would run from the Korytów station through Wyszogród - Płock - Brodnica to Gdańsk, with a possible branch to Olsztyn. These plans never materialized.



Centralna Magistrala Kolejowa (CMK) - Central Railway Main Line


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## dyonisien (Aug 30, 2010)

flierfy said:


> If 200 km/h were considered high-speed 60 years ago, then it is still high-speed today.


Does it mean that if 48km/h were considered high-speed at Rainhill in 1829 it is still high speed today ???


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## The Wild Boy (Apr 5, 2020)

krzysiek997 said:


> Wiki quote:
> 
> The Central Railway Main Line was designed in the years 1970-1971 and it was planned to adapt it to the speed of 200-250 km/h already during the design process, hence the appropriately large curve radius - 4000 m - and a sufficiently large distance between the track axes - 4.5 m
> 
> ...


Interesting. So eventually they did acknowledge the high speed, and wanted to adapt it. But why didn't they do it back then? Why did they originally only decide to run cargo trains and afterwards change their mind and allow passenger trains too? 

Moreover, cargo trains don't really need to run at 200 - 250 km/h. Afaik only Switzerland or Germany probably run cargo trains at 200 km/h, no one else. If they have invested a bit more in the 70's and 80's, they could have easily established a fast / high speed passenger rail connection on the CMK, but that only happened after the 90's.


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## PippO.SkaiO (Nov 5, 2021)

The Wild Boy said:


> The CMK line was ahead of it's time. Built in the early 70's, it could probably even be regarded as the world's 2nd high speed rail line (the first one being the Shinkansen in Japan), but it never really got to be the world's 2nd high speed railway line, since the full potential of the CMK was not used back then, and the CMK was actually mainly intended for cargo rail traffic.


CMK opened almost a year after the Direttissima Firenze-Roma were already carrying services at 200 km/h (sect. Città della Pieve-Roma opened in February 1977).


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## The Wild Boy (Apr 5, 2020)

PippO.SkaiO said:


> CMK opened almost a year after the Direttissima Firenze-Roma were already carrying services at 200 km/h (sect. Città della Pieve-Roma opened in February 1977).


Yes, but i think the Direttissima was never built for speeds greater than 250 km/h (or was it?)

The CMK was built for speeds up to 250 km/h, but they did set a speed record higher than that, and it was mentioned that the line could actually even handle services at 300 km/h.


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## PippO.SkaiO (Nov 5, 2021)

I don't know what you mean for "built for X km/h" but the DD Firenze-Roma track geometry allow up to 450 km/h.
The limit at 250 km/h is due to 3kV system instabilities when many trains are drawing MWs from the contact line.
Conversion to 25kV like other Italian HS lines is hampered by shared-use with regional services (mostly 3kV only).
However the line was used many times to test high speed trainsets under 3kV running them alone on the line at 320 km/h (e.g ETR-500 protoype tests in 1988)


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

dyonisien said:


> Does it mean that if 48km/h were considered high-speed at Rainhill in 1829 it is still high speed today ???


Sure.


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