# China's infrastructure splurge



## pflo777 (Feb 27, 2003)

the point is, if china doesnt turn into a democracy, and keeps on growing like that, sooner or later countries who are democratic but cannot provide that growth and that income increase to their citizens will also turn into absolutarian regimes.

Especially African and south american ones.

The mass of countries follow the leading, successfull ones. If the most successfull country is a democratic, capitalsit country, all will turn towards it.

If it is a captialst dictatorship, all will turn towards it, and ask themselves, why they should have democracy.


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## funzone36 (Dec 16, 2006)

pflo777 said:


> the point is, if china doesnt turn into a democracy, and keeps on growing like that, sooner or later countries who are democratic but cannot provide that growth and that income increase to their citizens will also turn into absolutarian regimes.
> 
> Especially African and south american ones.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily. People do not always follow someone else's tail. China was once poor. Did it follow the US and turn democratic? No.


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

white cat or black cat, cating rats cat is a good cat. we dont care if communisum carry our country to go forward.


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

China will get democracy (at least sort of) in 15-20 years. Until then they must built up enough infrastructure and a strong, stable and well educated middle class.


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## pflo777 (Feb 27, 2003)

goschio said:


> China will get democracy (at least sort of) in 15-20 years. Until then they must built up enough infrastructure and a strong, stable and well educated middle class.



Thats what I thought too, several years ago.
Do you know, what I think now? That the "West "will become a dictatorship within 10-15 years from now, because of "terrorism" and because they are afraid, that they cannot compete with China otherwise.....


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## funzone36 (Dec 16, 2006)

US still has the most advanced military in the world. They got nothing to afraid of.


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

^^

They were unable to prevent 9/11.


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## wigo (Jan 23, 2006)

funzone36 said:


> US still has the most advanced military in the world. They got nothing to afraid of.


Troll, we are talking about peace, not war. :lol:


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## pflo777 (Feb 27, 2003)

YelloPerilo said:


> ^^
> 
> They were unable to prevent 9/11.


Warum hätten sie etwas verhindern sollen, das sie selbst insziniert haben?


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

pflo777 said:


> Warum hätten sie etwas verhindern sollen, das sie selbst insziniert haben?


Das ist eine berechtigte Frage. Vielleicht, um die Invasion im Irak zu gerechtfertigen, vielleicht um die Innenpolitik nach eigenem Wunschdenken zu gestalten? Ersteres ist kläglich gescheitert, letzteres ziemlich weit gekommen.


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## chinkyy (Mar 5, 2008)

wigo said:


> Troll, we are talking about peace, not war. :lol:


Troll, peace and war are two faces of the same coin!

Apparently you didn't learn anything from your history classes.


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## chinkyy (Mar 5, 2008)

YelloPerilo said:


> ^^
> 
> They were unable to prevent 9/11.


who are "they"? 

9-11 wasn't a military operation. If you're trying to suggest that the American military is a fruitcake, then you should question why the Chinese govt still doesn't have the nerve to recover Taiwan.

By the way, there're conspiracy theories suggesting complicity of the CIA and White House officials in the attack so as to get the support of the public for mounting an invasion in the middle east.


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

chinkyy said:


> who are "they"?
> 
> 9-11 wasn't a military operation. If you're trying to suggest that the American military is a fruitcake, then you should question why the Chinese govt still doesn't have the nerve to recover Taiwan.


LOL at the troll with the stupid nick! :lol:


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## uwhuskies (Oct 11, 2006)

*Trolls-->Ignore Them*



YelloPerilo said:


> LOL at the troll with the stupid nick! :lol:


The best way to respond to trolls is to ignore them. Just get back on track with the topic. :bash:


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## drunkenmunkey888 (Aug 13, 2005)

Infrastructure is always a good thing to splurge on. A country cannot function if there was not a good way to get around. This is part of developing, having massive infrastructure so that resources, goods, and people can flow efficiently, thereby maximizing advantages and opportunities. By the time China does transition to democracy (which should be a question of _when_ not _if_) then all the necessary infrastructure will be there to allow it to run smoothly. 

I used to believe that a poor country cannot become developed and wealthy within 30 years if it was under a democracy, but that is not always the case though. It is usually true, all four asian tigers were dictatorships, greece was a dictatorship during its period of high growth, as was spain. But there are some exceptions to the rule. Iceland and Ireland are the only two that I can think of that were consistently democracies and were two of the poorest countries in Western Europe as recently as the 50's but now are two of the richest. The obvious difference here is that Iceland has a population of only 300,000 and Ireland only 5,000,000.


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## Gaeus (Mar 21, 2007)

An Asian country needs to have a "BIG DISCIPLINE", "BIG REVENUE" and "INTELLIGENT AND HARDWORKING CITIZENS" in order to become a successful developed nation. Of course, I am talking about the country of Japan. China, right now, has the infrastructure and the development. But it needs to secure its economy. there are still lots of reforms and it's still amateur in playing the World Economy (be sure not to caught in a trap just like what happened to ASEAN in late 1990s and Japan in late 1980s).

Right now, it's citizens are not yet experience enough in playing the Stock Market. I hate to say this but they are still amateur in playing this game. You can't sell stocks when it is down and buy if it is up. That is a basic rule in this game. It's good thing that the companies don't rely on the Stock Market (yet). 

In another aspect, inflation and Yuan Appreciation is hitting this nation. It can and must be controlled or else the low class will have a problem or we can say a "chaotic problem". The country will be affected in the World Crisis (recession) but it will still grow 9% - 11% in GDP as long as it fix the inflation issues and the Yuan Appreciation. The Yuan appreciation is making the labor issues worst. Once the unemployment will become 12%, then there is going to "chaos". Trust me, this word is not something you want to deal with especially in a country of 1.3 billion people even if it's under a dictatorship rule.


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## Adams3 (Mar 2, 2007)

^^ The yuan hasn't really appreciated. It has *de*preciated against both the yen and the euro, especially against the euro.


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)

China is doing the right thing by spending big on infrastructure. Given the population, it should have the most amount of infrastructure in the world.


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## Dallas star (Jul 6, 2006)

wow awesome looks like china is starting to gain on the US'S highway boom.


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## nazrey (Sep 12, 2003)

*China’s infrastructure: Beyond tomorrow *
12-08-2008: by KFH Research Ltd 
THEEDGEDAILY

Robust growth in China’s infrastructure sector has been driven by the country’s strong economic growth, encouraging demographics, rapid urbanisation and motorisation trends as well as increasing infrastructure upgrading needs. Growth has been particularly apparent in China’s road transport sector. According to the World Bank, since 1990, China’s road assets have grown faster than its GDP. 

Since 1998, total expenditure on transport infrastructure has exceeded 5% of GDP, of which roads accounted for about 3.5% of GDP. The country has significantly increased the capacity of its railway network. Ports and inland waterways as well as its air transport sector have also seen major investments. Better infrastructure in China (which began opening its economy in 1978, 13 years before India did) helped it attract US$75 billion (RM247.5 billion) of foreign direct investment (FDI) in 2007, compared with India’s US$50 billion since 1991. 

The focus of the 11th Five-Year Plan, which covers 2006-2010, is primarily on developing major infrastructure projects, which include port-related construction, road and transport infrastructure, oil utilities and water infrastructure. Special emphasis is being laid on airport development and upgrading works. More than 70 airports were scheduled for completion by end-2007.

The sector’s investment needs are expected to total more than US$130 billion annually between 2006 and 2010. A major portion of the growth is expected to come from China’s power generation and telecommunications sector. A study jointly commissioned by the World Bank, Asian Development Bank and JBIC indicates that power generation capacity is expected to be 85% higher in 2010 compared with 2000. 

Telephone mainlines will increase threefold from the penetration rate in 2000 and as much as 30 times in the mobile space. Furthermore, China’s stock of paved roads and rail network length are forecast to grow by more than 50% and 18%, respectively. Households with access to improved water and sanitation are also expected to reach 82% and 47% in 2010, from 75% and 40%, respectively in 2000. 

Sector-driving forces 
Investments in China’s infrastructure sector have been propelled by the double-digit growth rates achieved by the country over the past decade. In 2008, we expect China’s economy to continue expanding, albeit at a more moderate pace of 10.1% (2007: 11.4%), driven by continued growth in private investments. 

We also expect to see strong growth in the services sector supported by higher private consumption and increased government expenditure, fuelled by preparations for the Beijing Olympic Games. 

The projected growth rate is still significantly higher than the average annual growth rate of 7.5% projected in the 11th Five-Year Programme (2006 –2010). As the country continues on its robust growth path, more will have to be invested in the development and maintenance of its infrastructure in mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau to avoid bottlenecks, which can cripple growth. 

The government is now allowing foreign participation in road infrastructure financing. Over the past decade, more than 80 joint ventures between Hong Kong and mainland developers and their mainland counterpart highway agencies have raised US$10 billion from private sources, while an additional US$2 billion was raised via asset securitisation. 

In fiscal year 2007, the central government also allocated US$8.2 billion, which is an increase of US$1.2 billion from 2006’s allocation, to be invested in rural infrastructure. The funds are mainly to be used to finance road construction, water conservancy and power generation. 

Robust growth in China’s external trade has also put pressure on the country to develop its port infrastructure to cater to the sector’s growing requirements. The country is well on its way to becoming the world’s largest exporter. Merchandise trade continues to expand, helping China to more than double its share of the world’s merchandise exports to 8% since 2000. 












The migration of more Chinese to urban areas is starting to put tremendous pressure on the existing infrastructure in the cities and big towns. The effects have been particularly apparent in the country’s water quality and supply. Water shortages and pollution have become perennial problems. As a result, the government has been forced to invest in more effective water distribution networks. 

As part of its urban renewal campaign, China will spend around US$44 billion to construct and restore sustainable urban water supply projects, including wastewater treatment facilities and a subsidiary pipe network. Plans for urban infrastructure will continue to drive demand for roads, subway systems, rail networks as well as power generation and transmission lines in the main provinces. 

The trend has also spurred the construction of metro systems in major cities. In the next 10 years, the World Bank predicts that 15 cities will have a total metro length of 1,700km, which will involve an investment of US$83 billion. 

M&A frenzy 
China’s vast potential in the infrastructure space has spurred a merger and acquisition (M&A) frenzy in the sector. General M&A activity in China has been on an upward trend for several years now (+77% by volume in 2007). Domestic strategic buyers have become a key driver of growth in M&A activity. This has been partly due to regulatory changes and stronger domestic equity markets. 

Still, in the infrastructure sector, foreign investors remain heavily involved and mostly so through M&A-type transactions in the power, oil & gas and transport sectors. The number of foreign-invested M&As in the Chinese infrastructure sector (the transport and water & wastewater sectors in particular) has increased dramatically over the past five years. 

The priorities set by the 17th National Congress in 2007 puts emphasis on energy and resource efficiency, infrastructure, environmental protection and technological improvement. These priorities have led directly to the construction of more energy-efficient and environmentally-friendly power plants as well as investments in road, air transport and shipping to connect and develop the poorer parts of China. 

Minority stakes are now also more common and sometimes preferred to buyout deals. Investing together with state-owned partner is also becoming a new way for private equity and other funds to avoid regulatory risks and delays. There is also an increasing interest in solid waste disposal companies as well as sustained deal flow for the acquisition of toll road operators, equipment manufacturers and road construction as well as structural engineering firms. 

Looking at M&A deals announced between March 2007 and March 2008, the power and transport sectors can be expected to be very active with the largest number of deals in the road, electricity and waste sectors. 

The road ahead 
Despite the strong growth rates the sector is predicted to experience over the medium to long term, China’s infrastructure sector is not without its fair share of challenges. Rising inflation is driving up the cost of construction materials. China’s May 2008 consumer price index grew to 7.7% y-o-y, on rising food costs after an exceptionally bad winter affected supplies. 

The spike in commodity prices worldwide, particularly crude oil, is also driving up the costs of building materials such as steel and cement. Sustained economic growth has also raised the wage levels of blue collar workers. In July 2006, the minimum wage level was raised almost uniformly across cities. 

Financing future transport infrastructure investments and maintaining existing infrastructure is a challenge for China. It helps that the government is increasingly seeking private sector and foreign participation, particularly in road infrastructure financing, to bring its highway system up to international standards. Still, according to the World Bank, private financing has contributed less than 10% of China’s total commitment to new construction since the early 1980s. 

Improper and ineffective levy of user charges and tolls has also resulted in longer recovery periods. There is a need to introduce long overdue environmental and regulatory reforms to further accelerate the development of the industry. Poor working and labour conditions cause frequent accidents at construction sites, indirectly adding to the cost of construction. 

These challenges, if not addressed, could curtail the industry’s growth.


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## maldini (Jul 5, 2003)

China is right now in between democracy and socialist systems. That is why they are so efficient. They have a goverment that is implementing all the capitalist reforms. China is more capitalist than some so-called democratic countries. This is why many westerners are so jealous of China. They hate to see the Chinese economy rising and the Chinese getting more prosperous.


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## agentyumi (Aug 28, 2008)

China, economically extremely backward before 1949, has become one of the world's major economic powers with the greatest potential, and the overall living standard has reached that of a fairly well-off society. In the 22 years following reform and opening-up in 1979 in particular, China's economy developed at an unprecedented rate, and that momentum has been held steady into the 21st century. In 2004, the government further strengthened and improved its macro control, and the economy entered its best ever development period of recent years. The gross domestic product (GDP) for 2004 amounted to 13,687.59 billion yuan, 9.5 percent higher than the previous year.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

ChrisZwolle said:


> Though i find democracy is the best way to do things, she is right in some way. If you just see how many decades they are talking and talking all the livelong day about important connections in some countries, with democracy, you'll get nothing done.
> 
> If i tell we are talking about several short motorways (length under 10km) for already 40 years to a Chinese official, i'll get probably laughter in my face, and somewhere, they are right.
> 
> Democracy is a good thing, but it becomes inefficient if a few people can block things (hundreds) of thousands of people need for decades.


On the other side our European democracies have valuable yet time consumig safety nets like environmental compatibility tests. They make sure the best compromise between feasibility and protection of the area we live in is reached. Thats not only about pure idealism, its about saving costs... in the long run. China currently does care very little about "side effects" of all sorts and it will have to pay for that eventually.


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## AlexS2000 (May 5, 2006)

Slartibartfas said:


> On the other side our European democracies have valuable yet time consumig safety nets like environmental compatibility tests. They make sure the best compromise between feasibility and protection of the area we live in is reached. Thats not only about pure idealism, its about saving costs... in the long run. China currently does care very little about "side effects" of all sorts and it will have to pay for that eventually.


The main difference between China and Europe is that Europe is rich and advanced while China is in the process of modernization from a low economic base. Therefore Europe has the luxury to carefully plan each of its development move while China still need to carefully plan its own development but China has less time in getting the "perfect plan" but spend more time to get the work done. China has millions of poor people that need to improve their standard of living.

When Europe was recovering from World War 2, it was years of deprivation for everyone and it was utmost importance to raise everyone standard of living ASAP so much time about idealism.
I believe that as China start reaching Europe standard of living then China could take an approach similar what Europe is doing right now.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

I think the message here is what if China _wasn't_ making all that infrastructure. How would they cope with the worlds largest migration of people in history (350 million from rural to urban), the worlds largest economic growth ever produced (about 5 industrial revolutions in 25 years, the average wage multiplying 7x since 1990), with the largest ever lift of people out of poverty (700 million forming the worlds largest middle class) -all at the same time, without the infrastructure? The country would fall apart, the economy would haemmorhage billions in lost potential, the regime would probably fall too and the economy destabilise heavily.

Someone mentioned education in China, that is another huge growth factor - for example there are 300 colleges around Shanghai alone specialising in design, what competition will the rest of the world deal with? There are even more in languages, business, arts and computing. There will be more English speakers in China than the rest of the native English speakers combined by 2020, more managers and business analysts, computer experts, patents, architectural firms, banks, manufacturers, media agencies, artists, actors, models, athletes, engineers, reporters, writers, auto makers, you name it you got it, from orchestras to opthalmics, the education system, private colleges, factories and industries are busy training to flood their own untapped Chinese market and heavily dent the global one.

The country already is the worlds largest producer of steel, iron, tin, copper, coal, gold, metals in general, food products from seafood to wheat to rice to beer to tobacco to meat to vegetables, textiles, hydroelectricity, manufactured goods, electronic equipment, hi tech products, computer hardware, telecommunications, and clothing, it has the most internet and mobile phone users, the largest money reserves, and will soon be the worlds largest producer of things from windpower to wine, software to solar power, cars to chemicals, furniture to pharmaceuticals, within the next 2-10 years, the worlds largest tourism destination to boot, the worlds largest and busiest airports, seaports, train networks, cities and city metros to lace all this change and explosion of business together. 
The change in the country is unbelievable, that infrastructure needs to cope with that, and I reckon that would be impossible to build so vast a network to accomodate so large a change in so short a time if it functioned democratically.


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## serendip finder (Jun 17, 2008)

funzone36 said:


> US still has the most advanced military in the world. They got nothing to afraid of.


This is off topic, but I cant resist replying.

The US has a huge military, far bigger than their normal need, precisely because they fear everybody else. They fear not only terrorism, but also others who have a different religion or system than them. Even peacefully rising economies are considered potential threats. Just listen to their rhetoric and you will see.

This is why the US has so little money to fix their deteriorating infrastructure, let along build new ones.

This is why everytime China's infrastructure achievements are the topic, some posters diverge into off-topic, jealousy-motivated criticism.

Now back to the topic of this thread, i have read that China's massive infrastructure investment, which is 9% of their GDP, is reaping payoff for their economy in terms of increasing productivity. It also enables their GDP to sustain a higher growth trend.


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## Gaeus (Mar 21, 2007)

the spliff fairy said:


> I think the message here is what if China _wasn't_ making all that infrastructure. How would they cope with the worlds largest migration of people in history (350 million from rural to urban), the worlds largest economic growth ever produced (about 5 industrial revolutions in 25 years, the average wage multiplying 7x since 1990), with the largest ever lift of people out of poverty (700 million forming the worlds largest middle class) -all at the same time, without the infrastructure? The country would fall apart, the economy would haemmorhage billions in lost potential, the regime would probably fall too and the economy destabilise heavily.
> 
> Someone mentioned education in China, that is another huge growth factor - for example there are 300 colleges around Shanghai alone specialising in design, what competition will the rest of the world deal with? There are even more in languages, business, arts and computing. There will be more English speakers in China than the rest of the native English speakers combined by 2020, more managers and business analysts, computer experts, patents, architectural firms, banks, manufacturers, media agencies, artists, actors, models, athletes, engineers, reporters, writers, auto makers, you name it you got it, from orchestras to opthalmics, the education system, private colleges, factories and industries are busy training to flood their own untapped Chinese market and heavily dent the global one.
> 
> ...


China still has problems with its Educational System. It is not that innovative enough. That's why most of its best students go to Western schools to study. The country needs to follow the American Educational System.

United States Educational System is totally different from any countries in the world. I don't know which country can compare it. It teaches you how to "THINK" and not just think but to think in a creative/innovative way. It doesn't tell you to pass the exam. In fact, it doesn't care if you pass or fail the exam. The thing that I like about here is it teach how to get up once you fail. It teaches you how to recover. It teaches you how to find ways to deal with problems. It teaches you many ways to solve a problem. In other words it teaches you how to "OPEN YOUR MIND". If you more information, then read the book titled "*Post-American World by Fareed Zakaria*." It's one heck of a book!

However, the Ivy League Universities are somewhat changing. They are not there to teach the students but they are teaching them how to get a higher score. This is for schools own good. They are trying to be at the top of the charts. To be number one. Look what happened. They created an Al Gore and John Kerry who knows how to think but doesn't know how to win the hearts of the people.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

I think the Chinese, and most of the non American world know how to think, hell even independently, innovatively dare I say it. I don't think you need an American education system for that.

Look at modern culture at the mo, where all the latest technology is (Japan, Korea), the most cutting edge art scenes (Beijing, Berlin), the latest music (UK, Brazil), fashions (Tokyo, Milan, Scandinavia) and architecture (China with European and Asian designers). Not America, not in the traditional stalwarts of before. Like Zakaria deigns, its the rise of the Post-American world, not the decline of the US persay but the rise of all the rest.

Businesswise I think US still leads, alongside the great universities such as Harvard, Yale, MIT (but facing increasing competition), it's definitely a major player too in all those fields, but it's not the cutting edge in many others. You can't say independent and innovative thinking is a US educational construct, they do grow that in other countries too. Its classic iconoclasm, the soldier taught to disobey his officer, which is pretty much run of the mill in Europe, Japan and very much taking hold in China -the country is already leaving behind the 'copying' stage of a rising economy and entering the 'improving' stage. What it remains to do is the 'making its own' stage (followed by lucrative exports) that countries like Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Italy, France, Scandinavia and UK have kickstarted in their own cultures. This path normally takes decades to grow into, in China it has taken less than one. On the art scene for one, China has pretty much leapfrogged the entire process and is churning out the most resonant, iconoclastic and aesthetic defining movements at the mo. Its design and media scenes are not far behind, watch this space.


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## snow is red (May 7, 2007)

Gaeus said:


> China still has problems with its Educational System. It is not that innovative enough. That's why most of its best students go to Western schools to study. The country needs to follow the American Educational System.
> 
> United States Educational System is totally different from any countries in the world. I don't know which country can compare it. It teaches you how to "THINK" and not just think but to think in a creative/innovative way. It doesn't tell you to pass the exam. In fact, it doesn't care if you pass or fail the exam. The thing that I like about here is it teach how to get up once you fail. It teaches you how to recover. It teaches you how to find ways to deal with problems. It teaches you many ways to solve a problem. In other words it teaches you how to "OPEN YOUR MIND". If you more information, then read the book titled "*Post-American World by Fareed Zakaria*." It's one heck of a book!
> 
> However, the Ivy League Universities are somewhat changing. They are not there to teach the students but they are teaching them how to get a higher score. This is for schools own good. They are trying to be at the top of the charts. To be number one. Look what happened. They created an Al Gore and John Kerry who knows how to think but doesn't know how to win the hearts of the people.



I agree with you.

Do you think it is hard to emulate the US system ? I think the cost of US educational system is bigger than the current system of China, what you think ?

Even a lot of Chinese professors write about this, and are urging the Chinese government to carry out reforms.


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## Gaeus (Mar 21, 2007)

the spliff fairy said:


> I think the Chinese, and most of the non American world know how to think, hell even independently, innovatively dare I say it. I don't think you need an American education system for that.
> 
> Look at modern culture at the mo, where all the latest technology is (Japan, Korea), the most cutting edge art scenes (Beijing, Berlin), the latest music (UK, Brazil), fashions (Tokyo, Milan, Scandinavia) and architecture (China with European and Asian designers). Not America, not in the traditional stalwarts of before. Like Zakaria deigns, its the rise of the Post-American world, not the decline of the US persay but the rise of all the rest.
> 
> Businesswise I think US still leads, alongside the great universities such as Harvard, Yale, MIT (but facing increasing competition), it's definitely a major player too in all those fields, but it's not the cutting edge in many others. You can't say independent and innovative thinking is a US educational construct, they do grow that in other countries too. Its classic iconoclasm, the soldier taught to disobey his officer, which is pretty much run of the mill in Europe, Japan and very much taking hold in China -the country is already leaving behind the 'copying' stage of a rising economy and entering the 'improving' stage. What it remains to do is the 'making its own' stage (followed by lucrative exports) that countries like Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Italy, France, Scandinavia and UK have kickstarted in their own cultures. This path normally takes decades to grow into, in China it has taken less than one. On the art scene for one, China has pretty much leapfrogged the entire process and is churning out the most resonant, iconoclastic and aesthetic defining movements at the mo. Its design and media scenes are not far behind, watch this space.


American Innovation is still here and is actually waiting to explode again. There is just one thing that putting it down. And that is the "politics straight from the top". We saw the big innovation during the late 90s because the government never intervene. Actually, we saw such an explosion of innovation that the whole American society becomes more advance than ever before. However, 9/11, Neo-Conservative politics and the Iraq War really brought it down.

Confidence is still there but the persona of optimism is slowly evaporating. We became more afraid. More protectionist. More conservative. For the last 8 years, we got 2 recessions. Too much problem and the worst is some Americans did not even realized it. Probably we need another competition. Another race. Just like what we did when Soviet Union is still around. It's a good thing the next leadership saw this problem and hoping that he will find a way to fix it and bring this country back at track again.

Well, let's go back to the topic anyway.

I am very sure China has a lot of people who can be very innovative. They have that centuries ago and they will have it again. There was this rumor that Renaissance Age started when some Chinese sailors visited an Italian town around early 15th. century. They shared their knowledge and technologies including compass, papers, medicines and many others to those people there. They even shared a map with the "New World" in it. That means it's the Americas. I don't know how accurate that was but it's a pretty amazing story.


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## serendip finder (Jun 17, 2008)

America is inherently more innovative (to some extent) than other countries for cultural reasons, IMO, and for sure, with a change of administration it will bounce back from its current "slump". Although the gap with the rest of the world has also been narrowing.

One thing working against it is the low savings rate, which reduces funds for investment. Well it is a matter of cultural priorities.

China, on the other hand, seems to be placing particular emphasis on infrastructure. They have a saying that "before you start your business, build the road first."

One thing going also for China for the long term, infrastructurewise at least, is geography. Being located in the world's biggest landmass makes it possible to build high-speed rail linkages to the growing economies of the mainland part of southeast Asia, the subcontinent, Russia, and even all the way to the middle east and Europe. As rail is the most energy-efficient mode of transport and seems destined to be the norm for short- and medium-distance travel, China recognizes this.


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

American education system? LOL. I wouldn't call it an 'education' and it's certainly far from the best in the world.


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## Gaeus (Mar 21, 2007)

^^
You don't even know what you are talking about. Do some research before you say something.

And an we go back to the topic, shall we?


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## YelloPerilo (Oct 17, 2003)

US primary and secondary education is indeed laughable in comparison to most European or East Asian education systems.

Where the US is still leading are the top universities like MIT, Stanford or Harvard. But many students in these institutions are from abroad.


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)

*$730b infrastructure plan on table*

(China Daily) 2008-11-06

The transport ministry is considering a plan to spend 5 trillion yuan ($730 billion) on road and port infrastructure projects over the next three to five years, in a bid to stimulate domestic demand, the Shanghai-based China Business News reported on Wednesday.

An anonymous source with the ministry was quoted as saying that the massive spending was being considered as "such investment can produce an immediate effect (on domestic demand)".

The 5 trillion yuan figure includes funds the government had already earmarked for highway construction projects, the report said.

About 140 billion yuan will be spent on roads each year during the 11th Five-Year Plan period (2006-10), and 100 billion yuan a year during the 12th Five-Year Plan period (2011-20), it said.

The investment is part of the government's target to have 95 percent of all towns and 80 percent of all villages linked by a national road network by the end of 2020.

By 2010, China's expressways will stretch 65,000 km, up from 45,400 km at the end of last year, according to earlier government forecasts.

If the State Council approves the extra spending, "the targets can be achieved earlier than expected", the source was quoted as saying.

Transport ministry spokesman Ke Linchun told China Daily on Wednesday that although additional spending on infrastructure is being considered, the size of the investment has yet to be agreed.

"The total amount has not been decided," he said.

According to media reports, industry experts have hailed the news, saying large-scale spending on infrastructure is needed to stimulate domestic demand.

The government made similarly large investments in the years following the 1998 Asian financial crisis to counter the effects of the regional slump.

Zhang Wenjie, a professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, said on Wednesday that while he welcomed the extra spending on highway projects, a more pressing requirement was the development of the nation's ports and docks.

"This area deserves a much larger proportion of the spending, as we still lag a long way behind developed countries in terms of numbers," he said.

As well as the proposed new investment, on Oct 24, the State Council approved 2 trillion yuan for the construction of a series of railway projects to help boost economic growth amid the worldwide financial crisis.

As well as creating jobs in construction, the projects will be good news for the nation's steel and cement industries.

http://www.chinadaily.cn/bizchina/2008-11/06/content_7178938.htm


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## Whiteeclipse (Mar 31, 2005)

maldini said:


> China is right now in between democracy and socialist systems. That is why they are so efficient. They have a goverment that is implementing all the capitalist reforms. China is more capitalist than some so-called democratic countries. This is why many westerners are so jealous of China. They hate to see the Chinese economy rising and the Chinese getting more prosperous.


I don't think westerners are jealous of China, I think they are happy for the rise of China.

I feel this is a great thing because every year China gets richer and richer which ends up buying more of American and European products.


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## Skybean (Jun 16, 2004)

YelloPerilo said:


> Where the US is still leading are the top universities like MIT, Stanford or Harvard. But many students in these institutions are from abroad.


I think American institutions are so good because they have excellent funding. Worldwide I don't think many countries can compare. Large endowments and research grants allow them to pursue research with more resources and manpower that would be unavailable in other countries.


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## Dreamliner (Jul 18, 2005)

maldini said:


> China is right now in between democracy and socialist systems.


Yes, it's called Fascism.


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## serendip finder (Jun 17, 2008)

Dreamliner said:


> Yes, it's called Fascism.


China is not fascist. You do not know what you are talking about. Its economy is in transition from complete socialism to capitalism, the degree of which nobody is certain yet. Its government, though, is still communist.

Democracy refers to the political and governmental system where the people have a right to elect their leaders and everyone is equal rights. It does not refer to the economic system. A country may have a democratic government and a socialist economy at the same time, such as Sweden.


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## Scion (Apr 26, 2008)

serendip finder said:


> everyone is equal rights.


Not everyone have exactly equal rights in most democratic countries.

The proper terminology for China's current political system is Authoritarian. And capitalism for the current economic system.


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