# Spire vs. roof height measurement - The eternal skyscraper enthusiasts discussion



## erbse (Nov 8, 2006)

Ahoi!

Now we all in here most probably share some enthusiasm regarding skyscrapers.
But where's a dividing line for some, is how to actually measure their height.

*Do we rather count roof heights or spire heights as the officially recognized heights?
What argues for the one method, what for the other?*

I think we don't have to argue antennas should not be included, as they aren't structural as well as removed and added during the years and thus change height.

The CTBUH (Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat) uses the spire height measurement since 2009 to acknowledge the fact this has become kind of a hard decision, since you can't always tell where the "roof" ends and where a structural spire begins.

Take Burj Dubai as an example. What's roof height and what's spire height here?









Comparison diagram of some of the world's tallest buildings. Source: Wiki


Please keep this discussion as civilized, factual and serious as possible. 
Otherwise you'll end up sanctioned. Cordial thanks for your understanding.


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## azn_man12345 (Dec 24, 2010)

There's a reason the roof isn't used anymore. Because in this day and age, it's increasingly hard to figure out where the roof is. For example, Burj Khalifa, Shanghai Tower, Petronas Twin Towers, Abraj Al-Bait, and even the Empire State Building (as the most famous examples) all have roofs that are hard to distinguish from their spires or crowns.


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## Kanto (Apr 23, 2011)

Okay, so I have here a list of what roof heights, are known, what are calculated from other data and which are not known. I make this list as the first post here and I plan to update it whenever I get more information:

Black = Known value
Green = Dubious known value
Violet = Calculated from secondary values
Red = No data

1, Burj Khalifa = 649m = Calculated from the 638m in which the top floor is located and from the diagram.
2, Shanghai Tower = 632m = Value from SSP, but I have reason to believe that the actual height of it's roof might be smaller because of a crown.
3, Abraj al-Bait = No data, Wikipedia says 530m, but that is very dubious. Too dubious to be stated here.
4, Pentominium = 516m
5, Busan Lotte Tower = 510m
6, Shanghai World Financial Center = 492m
7, Lotte Jasmil Super Tower = No data, suggests a height of 486m
8, International Commerce Center = 484m
9, Taipei 101 = 448m
10, Willis Tower = 442m
11, Kingkey 100 = 442m
12, Guanghzhou International Finance Center = 437m
13, Damac Heights = 420m
14, New One World Trade Center = 417m
15, Old One World Trade center = 417m
16, Old Two World Trade Center = 415m
17, Two International Finance center = 407m
18, Princess Tower = 392m
19, Eton Place Dalian Tower = 388m
20, New Two World Trade Center = 387m
21, Al-Hamara Tower = No data.
22, Forum 66 Tower 1 = 384m
23, Nanjing Greenland Financial Complex = 381m
24, Empire State Building = 381m = Dubious because the top 51m are like an observation tower with 1 floor on a 330m building.
25, Petronas Towers = 379m = Calculated from the height of the superstructure which is 379m.
26, Marina 101 = No Data, suggests a height of 375m.

If anybody has any suggestions about this list, please let me know in this topic and I'll edit the list accordingly :cheers:


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## azn_man12345 (Dec 24, 2010)

.... Where is it? >.>


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## Kanto (Apr 23, 2011)

^^ I'm just constructing it. Right now there are the top 10 buildings. I'll continue adding them until all supertalls are listed there :cheers:


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## Kanto (Apr 23, 2011)

Okay, I'm finished for today, tomorow I'll add more buildings. For now be sure to read my list again, cause I changed some of my previously stated numbers.


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## JamieLikesTheShard (Mar 5, 2011)

Erbse.....a threat to all of us.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

What about some criteria like the higher floor surface which is completely enclosed by a roof?


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## Kanto (Apr 23, 2011)

I dunno, I never heared of such a measurement :dunno:


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## MattTheTubaGuy (Feb 12, 2009)

Personally, I just count the height of everything, because I think the spire vs antenna argument is silly in some cases. 
Take Willis Tower for example. I really can't imagine it without the white antenna. technically they are not part of the original architecture, but it really wouldn't look right without it.
On the other hand, Trump Tower Chicago has a 'spire' that looks practically identical to the ones on Sears (tall thin and white), yet this is somehow a spire rather than an antenna.


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## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

im sticking with the "official height" like its often called aka counting spires and not counting antennas. kinda sad that most building now do call their for me pretty much looking like antenna structure just spires to fall into the grid, but nothing can be done there i guess. what impact a building however gives to a skyline can be very different and isnt limited to just the spire, antenna, roof height.


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## azn_man12345 (Dec 24, 2010)

Okay, here's what the REAL WTB will be soon. I counted buildings that are under prep, on hold, and Kingdom Tower

1. Kingdom Tower-1000m+
2. Burj Khalifa-828m
3. India Tower-720m
4. Ping'an International Finance Centre-648m (possibly 660m)
5. Shanghai Tower-632m
6. Wuhan Greenland Center-606m
7. Abraj Al-Bait-601m
8. Golden Finance 117-597m
9. Lotte Jasmil Super Tower-556m
10. One World Trade Center-541m
11. Chow Tai Fook Center-530m
12. Pentominium-516m
13. Lotte Town Super Tower-510m
14. Federation Tower-510m
15. Taipei 101-508m


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## RandomNameTag (Nov 1, 2009)

Ok Kanto, tell me: How do you determine roof heights of structures that do not have visible roofs (such as Burj Khalifa, Shard London Bridge, Kingdom Tower Jeddah ect.)? Merely using the highest occupied floor ceiling height for roofs in those structures isn't good enough.


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## RandomNameTag (Nov 1, 2009)

azn_man12345 said:


> There's a reason the roof isn't used anymore. Because in this day and age, it's increasingly hard to figure out where the roof is. For example, Burj Khalifa, Shanghai Tower, Petronas Twin Towers, Abraj Al-Bait, and even the Empire State Building (as the most famous examples) all have roofs that are hard to distinguish from their spires or crowns.


Quoted for truth. Unlike spire height, pinnacle tip height, and highest occupied floor height, roof height measurements are very subjective and debatable.


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## Fury (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi all.

Kanto, both numbers you speil for the BK are incorrect ...

I can give you a list of 8 different height numbers (all correct) that could all be considered 'the roof'. One of them actually is the top of the same level you use but all are as legit as the rest.

That is why the council dropped the height to roof measure.

Everyone is different. You like the old height to roof - I on the other hand, like the height to tip (although I see the councils point on using the height to arch. top to rate structures). I choose not to argue about these points of view ...

Want the list ?

:cheers:
Ray.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm not in favour of including "spires", "faux-spires..aka antennae" or various and sundry popular "cheats" in the height of a building. To me, all above the last usable floor is just decoration. 
Furthermore, an antenna is NOT a spire. A city of antennae is a city of antennae.


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## Kanto (Apr 23, 2011)

RandomNameTag said:


> Ok Kanto, tell me: How do you determine roof heights of structures that do not have visible roofs (such as Burj Khalifa, Shard London Bridge, Kingdom Tower Jeddah ect.)? Merely using the highest occupied floor ceiling height for roofs in those structures isn't good enough.


Why isn't it good enough? :dunno:

Btw, Fury, if you have more detailed numbers about the Burj Khalifa, please post them in this topic :cheers:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

RandomNameTag said:


> Ok Kanto, tell me: How do you determine roof heights of structures that do not have visible roofs (such as Burj Khalifa, Shard London Bridge, Kingdom Tower Jeddah ect.)? Merely using the highest occupied floor ceiling height for roofs in those structures isn't good enough.


What about floor of the highest occupied story? Contrary to roofs which can gave quirk geometric forms, floors are mostly flat.


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## KillerZavatar (Jun 22, 2010)

i think in future we have a different discussion about what is called a skyscraper and what not. thinking of spires going taller i can imagine at one point to see hybrid skyscraper/towers. like only the spire grows longer for observation and signal stuff, but the floors with residentals and offices stay a bit lower up to 500m-600m. :nuts:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I was thinking of alternative measurements like volume, in m³, of a skyscraper, or a volume/maximum projected footprint ratio.


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