# MISC | Double-decker trains



## Kuvvaci (Jan 1, 2005)

Could you please post the pictures of double-deck units of the railways of your country and give some information about them. Routes, Top speed, regular speed, range, number of the stations they stop on a route.


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## Jozzy (Jul 21, 2008)

In the Netherlands, we've got three types of double-deck trains, all of which run on train services by NS (Nederlandse Spoorwegen). Two of those are real units (IRM and DD-AR), the other type theoretically consists of passenger cars pushed/pulled by a locomotive (DDM), but DDM still always cruises the country in the same composition.
By the way, the Netherlands currently has a top speed of 140 km/h for all passenger trains (except Thalys at a short stretch).


1. *IRM*
IRM is the newest of the three, and is mostly being used on intercity services. When introduced between 1994 and 1996, there were units of three cars (8200 series) and units of four cars (8400 series). In both cases, the first and last car feature an engine and 2nd class seats, and the middle car(s) feature a mix of 1st and 2nd class seats.
Between 2002 and 2005, extra cars were added to all IRM trains, featuring new (and according to most, improved) seats. The three-car 8200 series got one extra car (mixed 1st/2nd class) and now became the 9400 series. The four-car 8400 series got two extra cars (one mixed 1st/2nd class car, and one 2nd class car with an additional engine), and is currently called the 8600/8700 series.
In 2008, a bunch of completely new IRM trains were delivered, all featuring a new interior, such as wider stairs, which was possible due to the removal of elevator for the catering carts. The seat colors have now been changed to blue in the 2nd class and red in the 1st class, like other NS trains built/renovated during the last few years. These new IRM trains all have four cars (same composition as 9400 series), and form the 9500 series.

IRM exterior:









Lower deck 2nd class interior of the cars added between 2002 and 2005:










2. *DD-AR*
DD-AR trains were built between 1991 and 1996 by Tablot and can mostly be seen on services with a lot of stops.
DD-AR currently can be divided into two series: 7400 and 7800. Both consist of a control cab (in a car with 2nd class seats), then a car with 1st and 2nd class seats and then a car with 2nd class seats. Behind that, there is either (7800 series) a car with the engine on the lower deck and some 1st and 2nd class seats on the upper deck, or there is (7400 series) another 2nd class car and then a locomotive (loc type 1700).

Pic of the first option (7800 series):









Typical 2nd class interior of DD-AR (upper deck):










3. *DDM*
DDM was introduced in 1985 and is used in similar services as DD-AR, with a lot of stops.
DDM looks pretty similar to DD-AR, but has a different interior and is longer. It consists of a loc (loc type 1800, unlike DD-AR), and behind that in this particular order cars with 2nd class, 1st/2nd class, 2nd class, 1st/2nd class, 2nd class, and finally a control cab in a car with 2nd class seats.
All 13 DDM control cabs feature a drawing of an endangered species; this was an initiative of NS and the World Wildlife Fund.

Typical 2nd class interior of DDM (lower deck):









Control cab of DDM with a drawing of a whale:










_All pics from Wiki._


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## Kuvvaci (Jan 1, 2005)

wonderful representation kay:

I had no idea that top speed of all trains is 140 km/h in Nederlands.


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## quashlo (Jun 14, 2008)

Bilevel cars are rare in Japan, since they don't jive well with capacity needs and dwell times. In Tokyo, there's a couple of JR East lines which use trainsets with bilevel cars as green cars (first class cars), but it's only two bilevel cars per consist, with the rest as regular, single-level cars.


Tōkaidō Line
Route: Atami - Odawara - Ōfuna - Yokohama - Kawasaki - Tōkyō (21 stations)
Distance: 104.6 km
Average station spacing: 5.2 km
Travel time: 1h10m-1h25m (Odawara - Tōkyō), 1h30m-2h (Atami - Tōkyō)
Peak frequency: 26tph
Consists: 10, 10+5
Top speed: 120 km/h

Utsunomiya Line
Route: Ueno - Akabane - Ōmiya - Oyama - Utsunomiya - Nasu-Shiobara - Kuroiso (33 stations)
Distance: 159.9 km
Average station spacing: 5.0 km
Travel time: 1h40m (Utsunomiya - Ueno), 2h45m (Kuroiso - Ueno)
Peak frequency: 9tph
Consists: 10, 10+5
Top speed: 120 km/h

Takasaki Line
Route: Ueno - Akabane - Ōmiya - Kumagaya - Kagohara - Takasaki (24 stations)
Distance: 101.6 km
Average station spacing: 4.4 km
Travel time: 1h10m (Takasaki - Ueno)
Peak frequency: 12tph
Consists: 10, 10+5
Top speed: 120 km/h

Yokosuka Line
Route: Kurihama - Zushi - Kamakura - Ōfuna - Yokohama - Tōkyō (18 stations)
Distance: 73.3 km
Average station spacing: 4.3 km
Travel time: 1h30m (Kurihama - Tōkyō)
Peak frequency: 9tph
Consists: 11, 11+4
Top speed: 120 km/h

Sōbu Rapid Line
Route: Narita Airport - Chiba - Funabashi - Kinshichō - Tōkyō (18 stations)
Distance: 79.2 km
Travel time: 1h30m (Narita Airport - Tōkyō)
Peak frequency: 16tph
Consists: 11, 11+4
Top speed: 120 km/h

Jōban Rapid Line (mid-distance)
Route: Takahagi - Hitachi - Mito - Tsuchiura - Toride - Kashiwa - Matsudo - Kita-Senju - Ueno (34 stations)
Distance: 162.5 km
Travel time: 75m (Tsuchiura - Ueno), 3h00m (Takahagi - Ueno)
Peak frequency: 20tph
Consists: 10, 10+5
Top speed: 130 km/h

_Through-service on Yokosuka Line - Sōbu Rapid Line, Utsunomiya Line - Yokosuka Line, and Takasaki Line - Tōkaidō Line_

When originally constructed, the lines were regional / intercity routes, but once Tokyo started growing and expanding outward, the lines began to take on the nature of commuter trains. So if you don't want to stand or otherwise mingle with the commuters in the regular cars, the bilevel car is the way to go. The remaining cars in the consist are typical single-level cars. In order to ride in the green car, you must purchase a green car ticket before entering the train, which is equivalent to the cost of a regular ticket (fare is calculated by travel distance), plus the green car charge (750 yen for trips under 50 km, 950 yen for trips over). If you enter the green car without a green car ticket, the green car charge increases slightly (1000 yen for trips under 50 km, 1200 yen for trips over).

*Rolling Stock*

JR East E231 series (Tōkaidō Line, Utsunomiya Line, and Takasaki Line)
(my picture)

JR East E233 series (Tōkaidō Line, introduced in 2007):




 (posted by chmr103)

JR East E217 series (Yokosuka Line / Sōbu Rapid Line):
 (posted by powered_by_siemens)

JR East E531 series (Jōban Rapid Line, introduced in 2007):








Lower deck of green car







(from Wikipedia)

There's also 211 series, which is older.







(from Wikipedia)

Cool features:
You can also use a Suica card (contactless IC farecard) to "purchase" the green car charge part of a green car ticket. If you wish to use your Suica, you must purchase from the special Suica green car ticket machines; upon entering the green car, hold your Suica in front of the card reader installed above the seat to deduct the green car charge. The distance-based fare of the green car ticket will be deducted when you exit the station. 
Video of how Suica green car ticket works:






There's also bilevel Shinkansen for Tōhoku and Jōetsu Shinkansen, mainly used as a means of increasing capacity to accomodate commuters.

E1 Shinkansen MAX (12-car consists)







(from Wikipedia)

E4 Shinkansen MAX (8 or 8+8 consists)







(from Wikipedia)


Keihan Electric Railway in Osaka-Kyoto area also runs a single bilevel car in their 8000 series special express trains.







(from Wikipedia)


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## L2 (Aug 19, 2008)

CityRail in Sydney, Australia uses a large fleet of double-deck electric multiple unit sets to provide all suburban services, as well as most interurban rail services in the Greater Sydney area. Here are some photos:

Older 1970s-built double deck EMU at Thirroul on a local Wollongong suburban:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=236523

Newer 1990s-vintage Tangara in the Blue Mountains (Glenbrook):
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=267992

2003-2005 built Millennium Train at Bexley North (newest suburbans in the fleet):
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=234418


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## RoadUser (Aug 10, 2007)

Double deck trains form the majority of Israel Railways' trains. There is only one type. It is used on all lines. It is practically the only type used on suburban routes, and it is common on inter-city routes:



















At very busy times (i.e. Sunday mornings) they join two of them together to make this:


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## kato2k8 (May 4, 2008)

Eh - interesting to see what's basically the Bombardier DBpza with essentially the same paintjob as in Germany (upper horizontal stripe is a bit lower) but different furniture.

The Israeli units were built by Bombardier Görlitz.


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## yaohua2000 (Dec 26, 2008)

*Double-deck sleeper car in China*

This is a double-deck "hard sleeper"-class carriage in China. The train serves the route between Urumqi and Alashankou (Altaw Pass). I took this picture on 2006 April 26 at 07:59:54 UTC+08:00 at Bole (Bortala) Railway Station.

In either deck, there 4 beds in each compartment, 2 up, 2 down.

Designed speed: 140 km/h
Gauge: 1435 mm
Length: 25500 mm
Width: 3105 mm
Height (Roof to Track): 4750 mm
Passenger Capacity: 80 or 76
Weight: 53600 kg
Aircon system: 25000 kcal/h aircon * 2
Producer: Nanjing Puzhen Rolling Stock Works










----

This is a double-deck "soft sleeper"-class carriage in China. The train serves 
the route between Kunming and Dali.


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## yaohua2000 (Dec 26, 2008)

They also have double-deck dinning cars:

http://bbs.hasea.com/thread-145102-1-1.html


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

Belgian Railways M6 double-decker.

370 of these are ordered.


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## Kuvvaci (Jan 1, 2005)

super trains... thank to everyone who sent pictures so far.

What is the speed of double deck Shinkansen of Japan?


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

We got these in Denmark 









Not sure about the top speed - my guess is around 170-180km/h.. :dunno:


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## RoadUser (Aug 10, 2007)

FREKI said:


> We got these in Denmark
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's almost identical to the Israeli type, but with an interesting difference (apart from the colour):










THe driver's cab carriage in the Danish train has more room for passengers, because the air conditioning system takes up the front part of the Israeli one. I assume from this that the Danish train isn't air conditioned?

The Israeli trains can do 150 kph, BTW.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

New double decker sleeper in Russia:


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

RoadUser said:


> That's almost identical to the Israeli type, but with an interesting difference (apart from the colour):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those Israeli train carriages are exactly the same carriages (except they're diesel) that are used by DB in Germany on the Regionalbahn and RegionalExpress services across the country. 

These travel in Germany at 160km/h and are often hauled by electric locomotives rather than diesel, though diesel are used in parts of the country (not sure if they're used for double decker carriages though, I know they are for single).


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## Kuvvaci (Jan 1, 2005)

FREKI said:


> We got these in Denmark
> 
> 
> 
> ...


are they intercity or short distance trains?


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## milwaukee-københavn (Jun 21, 2006)

The Danish trains run IC on Sundays when demand is high and regional services the rest of the time. Their top speed is 160 (the same as the rest of the system) and they have A/C.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Israel's locomotives cannot feed the train with electricity, so one car must have a diesel engine to create electricity for heating, AC and other equipments.

Just like this, from another thread of SSC:


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Germany, Metronom with A/C:


















And Germany Deutsche Bahn with A/C too:


















DB, Germany without A/C:


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

RoadUser said:


> At very busy times (i.e. Sunday mornings) they join two of them together to make this:


Interesting... What kind of couplers are mounted on those trains ?


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## jsiren (Feb 14, 2009)

Here's a Finnish Sr2 locomotive - essentially the same as the Swiss 460 - and double deck Intercity cars with an older single decker in tow. Note the larger loading gauge that allows wide and tall cars. Air conditioning units and other auxiliary equipment are housed under the roof in the car ends. We also have night trains with double deck sleepers and double deck auto carriers with the same profile.


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## AAPMBerlin (Aug 16, 2008)

jsiren said:


> Here's a Finnish Sr2 locomotive - essentially the same as the Swiss 460 - and double deck Intercity cars with an older single decker in tow. Note the larger loading gauge that allows wide and tall cars. Air conditioning units and other auxiliary equipment are housed under the roof in the car ends. We also have night trains with double deck sleepers and double deck auto carriers with the same profile.



...you mean this?:









taken from: http://www.vaunut.org:cheers:

Welcome to SSC!


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## ArtManDoo (Aug 5, 2008)

> Lithuanian Railways has these Skoda trains operating between Kaunas and Vilinius:
> top speed 160km/h


Is it train speed or service speed?

If service speed is 160km/h then is catenary(I mean overhead wire) already rebuilt or the remainig one was good for speeds over 120km/h?

The current signalling system allows max 120km/h as I can remember, if 160km/h then how they solved signalling problem?


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## Qwert (Jun 25, 2006)

ArtManDoo said:


> Is it train speed or service speed?
> 
> If service speed is 160km/h then is catenary(I mean overhead wire) already rebuilt or the remainig one was good for speeds over 120km/h?
> 
> The current signalling system allows max 120km/h as I can remember, if 160km/h then how they solved signalling problem?


160 km/h is design speed of these trains, but their actual maximal speed is 140 km/h (of course on suitable railway). Link: http://www.skoda.cz/en/skoda-holding/products/c31697/suburban-emu-cityelefant-aid722.html

BTW, Slovakia also purchased 10 three-car (power car, intermediate trailer, driving car) double-deck EMUs for suburban operation around Žilina and Košice from Škoda. The 3 kV DC/25 kV 50 Hz AC dual-voltage trains with a top speed of 160 km/h are expected to cost up to €92.3 million. First unit should be delivered in 2010.

Vision:


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## Republica (Jun 30, 2005)

It's sad that here in the UK these cannot possibly fit onto the lines without massive changes to all bridges and tracks. Its more viable to just lengthen platforms. Or have high frwquency.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Republica said:


> It's sad that here in the UK these cannot possibly fit onto the lines without massive changes to all bridges and tracks. Its more viable to just lengthen platforms. Or have high frwquency.


But high frequency is better for the passengers.


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## anaiptol (Oct 6, 2007)

ArtManDoo said:


> Is it train speed or service speed?
> 
> If service speed is 160km/h then is catenary(I mean overhead wire) already rebuilt or the remainig one was good for speeds over 120km/h?
> 
> The current signalling system allows max 120km/h as I can remember, if 160km/h then how they solved signalling problem?


For now it operates with 120km/h speed and the reconstruction that would allow higher speeds is not even sheduled... Lithuanian Railways' priority is freight cause it's profitable.hno:


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## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

Republica said:


> It's sad that here in the UK these cannot possibly fit onto the lines without massive changes to all bridges and tracks. Its more viable to just lengthen platforms. Or have high frwquency.


What is the UK gauge? Maximum height? Maximum load? Maximum width?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Britain

British loading gauge is 9 ft (2743 mm) wide by 11 ft (3353 mm) high on the sides, rising to a 13 ft 6 in (4115 mm) centre. Below platform level (the lower 3 ft 6 in or 914 mm) the vehicle can be no wider than 8 ft 8 in (2642 mm). Some lines, particularly the Hastings Line, had even narrower loading gauges. By contrast the European (Berne) loading gauge is usually 10 ft 2 in (3150 mm) wide by 10 ft 5 in (3175 mm) rising to 14 ft 0½ in (4280 mm) in the centre. This is a clearance envelope on a curve of 250 m (820 ft 2.5 in) radius.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge

Especially the width below the platform level makes double deck trains impossible, you can only have a very small lower deck without 2x2 seating.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Momo1435 said:


> Britain
> 
> British loading gauge is 9 ft (2743 mm) wide by 11 ft (3353 mm) high on the sides, rising to a 13 ft 6 in (4115 mm) centre. Below platform level (the lower 3 ft 6 in or 914 mm) the vehicle can be no wider than 8 ft 8 in (2642 mm). Some lines, particularly the Hastings Line, had even narrower loading gauges. By contrast the European (Berne) loading gauge is usually 10 ft 2 in (3150 mm) wide by 10 ft 5 in (3175 mm) rising to 14 ft 0½ in (4280 mm) in the centre. This is a clearance envelope on a curve of 250 m (820 ft 2.5 in) radius.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge
> ...


I found that:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/loadgauge/loadgauge.htm


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## rheintram (Mar 5, 2008)

*Austria* - City Airport Train (Vienna Mitte - Vienna Airport)


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## Bartje (Nov 7, 2007)

*The smallest double-deck unit????*









Baureihe 670 in Germany

Only 6 trains are build by Bombardier


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Looks like a double decker bus on railways. Did the Germans look at the British Pacer/Sprinter series and go "we can make those DOUBLE DECKER! They're so appealing to ride on!"


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

An Italian company built a double decker DMU using as base the project of French double-decker coaches.

http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1778&p=119813#p119813

http://forum.milanotrasporti.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1778&p=94170#p94170

Now it is used in Mauritania towed by another locomotive.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

More of Baureihe 670, Germany:


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## JOVANO (Dec 28, 2008)

About Belgian M6 doubledeckers: I do not think they ordered 370 of these.

The 370 ordered are the new Siemens Desiros for the GEN/RER .


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## JOVANO (Dec 28, 2008)

Thermo said:


> Belgian Railways M6 double-decker.
> 
> 370 of these are ordered.


I mean this ones, not 370 of them where ordered.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^ It's already an old number, right now the total number of delivered and ordered M6 cars is already 492. But the 370 was the number before even more new ones were ordered, so it's not completely incorrect.


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## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

When I see this picture, I think it is really possible to have double-deck with UK gauge. Thanks for the info on gauges by the way.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

Momo1435 said:


> ^^ It's already an old number, right now the total number of delivered and ordered M6 cars is already 492. But the 370 was the number before even more new ones were ordered, so it's not completely incorrect.


True. About the Desiro ML: 305 of these are ordered.


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## metro_minotaur (Feb 7, 2009)

^^that new Desiro ML looks like a single deck train from the side but the front looks like it belongs to a double deck train


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

That's because it is a single-deck train  I agree though, it looks a bit different. Can't say I like it, but can't say I hate it either. I guess I'll first have to see it for real before I can make a decision on it.

They just went slightly off-topic due to the confusion about the ordering numbers. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now I want to see some more double-deck trains, chop chop people! 

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## metro_minotaur (Feb 7, 2009)

there's also the double deck RER trains in Paris


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## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

This Samurai like Belgian Desiro is not ugly, but why "Asian" like face design? And single Deckers are off topic here. Sorry.


Thermo said:


> True. About the Desiro ML: 305 of these are ordered.


The Desiro exists in Double-Deck.


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## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

This is a double-deck project by Talgo (in development), the non traditional Spanish train manufacturer.
I don't know if any have been produced yet...


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^ It was designed by the Finnish part of Talgo "Talgo Oy". But Talgo sold that part in 2007 but kept this design for itself. It uses the trademark 1 axle bogies from Talgo and the double deck knowledge from Finland. 

It was entered in the tender for new trains for the suburban network of Helsinki. But they lost it to the single deck Flirt EMU's from Stadler Rail. I think it was also entered in at least one of the 2 recent tenders for new double stock EMUs for the S-Bahn Zurich, but they also lost to Siemens and Stadler there.


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## pcrail (Jan 10, 2009)

*Taglo double decker*

^^ This is Talgo 22. It was offered for Helsinki and Zurich. Very futuristic concept with passage between the coaches on two levels.









concept car without traction









cross section









inter car connection (see Eisenbahnkurer)

For the Swiss project it was offered in a concortium with Talgo (body, running gear), Elin, Austria (Traction). Prose Switzerland would have made the traction bogies.

more information here (in German)


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## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

I like the spirit of R&D of Talgo. Not everything is super, but they do things differently than others... 

Business and production is something else, often politics take part and return in the country that buys is a key to market... And in other countries, bribes, but it is another point...


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## dachacon (Jun 17, 2008)

why has no one put pictures of Amtrak??
looks like i have to ride the rails and get some pics here :lol:


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## serdar samanlı1 (Feb 20, 2008)

It is really weird that UK does not have double-decker trains while most continental European countries have


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## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

We already spoke about UK double-decks (read previously in this forum), problem of maximum dimensions on network...


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

pcrail said:


> ^^ This is Talgo 22. It was offered for Helsinki and Zurich. Very futuristic concept with passage between the coaches on two levels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love it, but surely they won't be selling many of these? They look to be too tall for most EU nations...


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Slagathor said:


> I love it, but surely they won't be selling many of these? They look to be too tall for most EU nations...


There are two versions one for Finland and eastern Europe and one UIC G2 for Germany, Austria etc.
A third version for UIC G1 for France etc. is in development.


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## milwaukee-københavn (Jun 21, 2006)

AMTRAK!









Surfliner train between San Diego and LA /Patrick Todd from Wikipedia









Capitol Corridor Train in California /Todd Evans from Wikipedia









Superliner- used on long distance routes /bribri from Wikipedia









Superliner diner car /Matthew Neleigh from Wikipedia









Inside of lounge car on a Superliner /same as above


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

^^ I googled Surfliner, apparently you folk run that massive beast like a streetcar. 

Europe is pathetic


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## milwaukee-københavn (Jun 21, 2006)

It's America...

It's actually kind of comical how oversized almost all of Amtrak's trains and especially their locomotives are. Especially considering how poor the rail infrastructure in America is.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Luxembourg:


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

Guess the country that this is. If you already know it, don't talk.


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## He Named Thor (Feb 15, 2008)

milwaukee-københavn said:


> AMTRAK!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More:
A Superliner train at station. 








The regular coach seating








A dining car.








The "family room", one of the different types of rooms available. See Amtrak's Website 











Slagathor said:


> ^^ I googled Surfliner, apparently you folk run that massive beast like a streetcar.
> 
> Europe is pathetic


Bah, that's nothing. Look up the GE Genesis. It makes up the bulk of Amtrak's fleet. 


Or our freight trains.


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## The other Dude (Jan 30, 2008)

UD2 said:


> Guess the country that this is. If you already know it, don't talk.
> 
> mexico?


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## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

It is in PRC Hong Kong. Bought by the KCR originally but now amalgated into the MTR Network


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Derived from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_Re_460

There are only few such locomotives in Hong Kong. Maybe only two.


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## amirtaheri (Nov 22, 2007)

UD2 said:


> Guess the country that this is. If you already know it, don't talk.


I'm going to guess Hong Kong? Kowloon-Canton Railways?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Let me post some that I haven't seen here yet.

SJ X40 (Sweden)



Trenitalia TAF (Italy)



Italian push pull double-deck train.


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## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

A bit more Italian doubble deckers

Tsr



















Again Taf (here the shuttle to Milan International Airport)



















Vivalto










An old doubbledecker


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## UD2 (Jan 21, 2006)

amirtaheri said:


> I'm going to guess Hong Kong? Kowloon-Canton Railways?


right.. too easy. I gotta find a harder one.


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## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

*The Dutch National Railways (NS) doesn't belong to the Dutch state, but is a private company. So the company have sponsering on their trains. The dubbledecksunits is sponsered by the Dutch Olympic Comittee.*


















*A real floating train! The NS is sponser of Amsterdam Sail. The cockpit is replaced by a wheelhouse.*









*All aboard on the nighttrain*









*....Station Ahoy!*


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

The cab on the pantograph's side in't real, just for estethic reasons.

Are the NS really privately owned? Or have just a "private" legal structure, but still belonging to the governement?


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## Herbicide (Feb 16, 2006)

Push-pull commuter trains with duplex carriages around Tehran, Iran:


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Coccodrillo said:


> Are the NS really privately owned? Or have just a "private" legal structure, but still belonging to the governement?


It's the latter and the NS always been a private company since it's formation in 1938. Before that there were 2 major fully private railway companies, but they merged and were nationalized at the same time.


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## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

Good add-ons, I like the floating NS double-deck  
I hardly can imagine another place than Netherlands for such a view...


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## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Momo1435 said:


> It's the latter and the NS always been a private company since it's formation in 1938. Before that there were 2 major fully private railway companies, but they merged and were nationalized at the same time.


I thought the government was no longer a majority shareholder (50%)?


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

*GO Train: Golden Horeshoe (Greater Toronto and surrounding areas)*









http://www.brucewitchel.com/account/0ba7ffab1cc5e9d9/pages/9392_1.jpg


















http://www.thebluecomet.com/cn_GO726bayviewjct.jpg









http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2218/2312083018_1a5374d34d.jpg


*VIA Rail: Canadian national rail carrier*








http://www.guideposttours.com.au/upload/images/Guidepost Logos/CanadaViaRailSnow.jpeg









http://media.canada.com/3ca29868-a2b8-4cc7-ae56-6e8c67b32770/viarail.jpg









http://www.canadiansky.ie/graphics/...es-500x500/4-VIA-Rail-TheCanadian-DomeCar.jpg









http://imagecache2.allposters.com/i...-Car-Makes-its-Way-Through-Canada-Posters.jpg









http://www.sandiegomagazine.com/med...e-2008/Tracking-Nature/img_trackingnature.jpg


----------



## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

@Micrav: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=187101&nseq=15066


----------



## Avientu (Jul 12, 2007)

CAF Class 450 used by Renfe on "Cercanías" services (commuter trains in Madrid and Barcelona metropolitan areas):


----------



## Micrav (Feb 19, 2008)

Coccodrillo said:


> @Micrav: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=187101&nseq=15066


Thanks I was wrong. French did it with a TGV+Double Deck... in the heart of Paris... Good commercial for SNCF 

But isn't it a dutch platform? Zeevang


----------



## Exethalion (Dec 23, 2008)

Anyone have any decent pictures of Indian double deckers? I'm sure they use them.


----------



## pcrail (Jan 10, 2009)

Coccodrillo said:


> Derived from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_Re_460
> There are only few such locomotives in Hong Kong. Maybe only two.


Yes, there are only two locomotives and a train set from Kinkishario (Japan).


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Slagathor said:


> I thought the government was no longer a majority shareholder (50%)?


I didn't notice your post yesterday, but the state is still 100% owner.



Exethalion said:


> Anyone have any decent pictures of Indian double deckers? I'm sure they use them.


It's hard to find images on the web but I found some on http://irfca.org via google.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

amirtaheri said:


> I'm going to guess Hong Kong? Kowloon-Canton Railways?


You mean *China*  HK isn't a country


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

*Caltrain* Bay Area


----------



## AAPMBerlin (Aug 16, 2008)

WANCH said:


> *Caltrain* Bay Area


Which "Bay Area"?


----------



## Herbicide (Feb 16, 2006)

^^ What country is that in?


----------



## quashlo (Jun 14, 2008)

Photoshopped. Caltrain is a commuter railroad in the San Francisco Bay Area.
They run bilevel push-pull locomotive trains (think Chicago Metra, LA Metrolink, etc.), but not bilevel EMUs as in the photo.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

quashlo said:


> Photoshopped. Caltrain is a commuter railroad in the San Francisco Bay Area.
> They run bilevel push-pull locomotive trains (think Chicago Metra, LA Metrolink, etc.), but not bilevel EMUs as in the photo.


Its not photoshopped. I rode the Caltrain from San Jose up to San Francisco when I was in The Bay for vacation. And yes they use double deck units.


----------



## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

It is photoshopped. Nowhere in North Americas do they run Bilevel EMUs. They are all pushpull loco units.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

This thread is about double deck units in *general* whether is EMUs or push-pull. Caltrain is definitely double deck


----------



## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

WANCH said:


> This thread is about double deck units in *general* whether is EMUs or push-pull. Caltrain is definitely double deck


What he's saying is that the rolling stock you show can't be Caltrain as it is electric. Caltrain runs locomotive-hauled diesel rolling stock and owns no electric rolling stock.

See here for a list of Caltrain rolling stock.

Your second set of pictures are definite Caltrain stock, but the first picture is a photoshopped mock-up.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Svartmetall said:


> What he's saying is that the rolling stock you show can't be Caltrain as it is electric. Caltrain runs locomotive-hauled diesel rolling stock and owns no electric rolling stock.
> 
> See here for a list of Caltrain rolling stock.
> 
> Your second set of pictures are definite Caltrain stock, but the first picture is a photoshopped mock-up.


Its ok man.


----------



## thib8500 (Jun 12, 2006)

The french TER 2N NG









http://farm1.static.flickr.com/109/309598857_fe7bce0abd_o.jpg










http://www.web-trains.com/24500/24500_16.jpg









http://www.rail.lu/im/g/Maquette TER2Nng 25.10.2002 002.jpg


----------



## AAPMBerlin (Aug 16, 2008)

cal_t said:


> It is photoshopped. Nowhere in North Americas do they run Bilevel EMUs. They are all pushpull loco units.


If this is photoshopped, what is the original?


----------



## milwaukee-københavn (Jun 21, 2006)

http://usrailroadpics.fotopic.net/p8257017.html
Metra in Chicago runs bi-level emu's.


----------



## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

Okay, maybe with exceptions.


----------



## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

But still far too modern design for an American railway... 
That photoshopped train is of European origin, I would say. At least, the design suggests that.


----------



## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

It's a TER 2N: http://z2n.free.fr/z/23500/23500.html

The train posted by thib8500 is the second version of these.

TER = Train Express Régional
2N = Deux Niveaux = two floors
NG = Nouvelle Génération = new generation


----------



## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

That picture is for a official plan to eventually upgrade the line to EMU's


----------



## dachacon (Jun 17, 2008)

He Named Thor said:


> More:
> 
> 
> Bah, that's nothing. Look up the GE Genesis. It makes up the bulk of Amtrak's fleet.
> ...


he ment at how often it runs for an intercity railway. there are more than 10 daily trips during the week and even more on the weekend, compare it to the sunset limited that runs 3 times a week and the south west chief that runs daily. also the pacific surfliner is the 2nd busiest rail line in the whole system.


----------



## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Portuguese doubledeck trains:

Fertagus (cross tagus rail link in lisboa): 
- one train every 10 minutes all day long, during rush hour most trains run in doubles, the company seriously lacks aditional train
- stuck at 70.000 daily ridership due to lack of seats and floor space to pack more comuters in rush hour :lol:
- the other major obstackle preventing the ridership increase is the Tagus bridge itself that only allows two 4 car trains crossing or a double consist (8 car) to cross alone at any time and it takes 4/5 minutes to cross the bridge so it gets completely jammed in rush hour. 

























































CP operates similar trains in Lisboa northern suburbs:


























Some videos at youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=542-_53weiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMHwSHJ8P2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv-dczCsv6c <<< the intercity crosses with and incoming doubledeck at minute 4:20 


^^ They should really put these trains in Intercity duties ...


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

The Romanian railway company CFR has refurbished some of their 2nd hand articulated double deck car sets, they originally came from Eastern Germany.




























This how they looked like before the were refurbished.









http://forum.transira.ro/viewtopic.php?t=3217


----------



## Qwert (Jun 25, 2006)

^^In Slovakia we had those DDR double-deck coaches as well. But, they are not in use for like tow decades and only few of them survived:

These can be seen in Prague:

















Photos are from www.vlaky.net


----------



## Ale Sasso (Aug 10, 2009)

Just some informations about italian double-deck stock (you've jet seen pics).

Basically we have 4 different kind of racks:

EMUs:

- Oldest are "TAF" (meaning "Treno ad Alta Frequentazione", or High Capacity Train), dated 1990's and classified ALe 426+Le 736+Le 736+ALe 506. Owners are Trenitalia (Italian State Company) and LeNord (Lombardia Region company). Some units with little differences, are deliveried by Ansaldobreda for Morocco.

- More recent are "TSR" (meaning "Treno per Servizi Regionali", or Regional Services Train). Thay are still in production (builder is a consortium leaded by Ansaldobreda). The owner is FNM-Ferrovie Nord Milano (Lombardia Region) that lease them to LeNord and Trenitalia for commuter services around Milano ("Linee S"-Suburban Lines).


Hauled stock:

- Oldest are "Casaralta" (a former italian firm) double deck coaches, built under CIMT (French firm) licence in 1980's; They are very common in all big italian towns; interestly, not only Trenitalia but also the local Puglia Region FSE Company (Ferrovie del Sud Est - South East Railway) own some of such coaches.

- Still in delivery today are "Vivalto" coaches, built by a consortium of little italian (and east european) companies with Bombardier electrical system and Siemens boogies.

Bye!


----------



## He Named Thor (Feb 15, 2008)

Momo1435 said:


> The Romanian railway company CFR has refurbished some of their 2nd hand articulated double deck car sets, they originally came from Eastern Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy cow! :llama:

That's what I call thourough! You can barely tell that it used to look anything like that.


----------



## natarajan1986 (Sep 10, 2008)

even india has plans to introduce this kinda of trains


----------



## Lijman (Jul 12, 2008)

..


----------



## Lijman (Jul 12, 2008)

..


----------



## metsfan (Apr 14, 2008)

LIRR C3:




























NJT multilevel:







































The multilevels are much bigger and more comfy inside, ride smoother, and are rated to 110 mph. I believe these currently serve about half or more of the NJT lines. A few of the lines need track upgrades to take the weight of a full train of these. I ride one usually once a week in one direction, usually from newark to trenton.

The LIRR C3's are rated to 85 mph and do not operate outside of NY. I only hopped on one of these, i found them to be quite small inside compared to the single level of the M7.

- A


----------



## ianto (May 21, 2008)

*Czech Suburban EMU class 471*


----------



## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

*Belgium:*


----------



## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

The only compliant i have about our trains is the Need some more paint. Other then that there very comfy.














http://www.flickr.com/photos/flickr4jazz/4214469005/sizes/l/in/[email protected]/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/pgengler/371487864/sizes/l/


----------



## homunwai (May 13, 2010)

Does China and Japan has any double deck trains?


----------



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

homunwai said:


> Does China and Japan has any double deck trains?


The intercity service between Guangzhou and Hong Kong uses double-deck trains.


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Japan also has double deck trains

1st you have the Shinkansen E1 and E4 series. 









newpre.blog94.fc2.com/









realrailway.com

There are also some non high speed full double or partly double EMUs used for limited express trains and night trains.


















newpre.blog94.fc2.com/

The suburban trains operated by the JR also have a couple of double stock cars, they are the 1st class green cars. 









newpre.blog94.fc2.com/

bUT Most trains are single deck because single deck trains have a bigger standing capacity then double deck trains and can have more doors.


----------



## Augusto (Mar 3, 2005)

In the Middle East Israel and Iran have recently introduced double decker.


----------



## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

The UK doesn't have any double deck trains due to loading gauge restrictions. But tbh I think a lot of them trains don't look very nice except maybe the TGV duplex


----------



## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

Why am I not surprised about that?!? :lol:


----------



## Augusto (Mar 3, 2005)

poshbakerloo said:


> The UK doesn't have any double deck trains due to loading gauge restrictions.


With the exception of the Blackpool tram


----------



## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

Augusto said:


> With the exception of the Blackpool tram


its only a few very old trams that are


----------



## Stainless (Jun 7, 2009)

Augusto said:


> With the exception of the Blackpool tram


Interesting exception. I find it odd that so many places in the world have double deck trains yet the double decker bus is synonymous with the UK.


----------



## RoadUser (Aug 10, 2007)

Augusto said:


> In the Middle East Israel and Iran have recently introduced double decker.


Not that recently - Israel's had them since 1999. 

Don't know about Iran.


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Iran's are very new.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=52401535&postcount=157










They will bw used on a suburban line into Teheran.

I think they are a Chinese design that is manufactured locally.


----------



## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

He Named Thor said:


> Holy cow! :llama:
> 
> That's what I call thorough! You can barely tell that it used to look anything like that.


almost as good as the HST refurbish :|


----------



## Augusto (Mar 3, 2005)

RoadUser said:


> Not that recently - Israel's had them since 1999.
> 
> Don't know about Iran.


Same year than Israel: 1999. When I said "recently" I meant compared to other countries like France where there are double decked carriages since the begining of the 20th century.. 
But the first modern double decker were made in the 1930': the very advanced for their time "Voiture Etat à étage" on the Paris Saint Lazare suburban network. Today unrefurbished 80' rolling stock has still the same design. 
From wikipedia:


----------



## Slagathor (Jul 29, 2007)

Augusto said:


> Same year than Israel: 1999. When I said "recently" I meant compared to other countries like France where there are double decked carriages since the begining of the 20th century..
> But the first modern double decker were made in the 1930': the very advanced for their time "Voiture Etat à étage" on the Paris Saint Lazare suburban network. *Today* unrefurbished 80' rolling stock has still the same design.
> From wikipedia: [/QUOTE]
> 
> Bummer. I was just about to remark that that is "some very sweet electric wiring for the 1930s." :D


----------



## Trainviationfanatica (May 28, 2010)

I think you all forget about some of them lol...
In Japan (3 more unlisted)
JR Shikoku Marine Liner








..
Odakyu RSE Romance Car 










JR Asagiri Ltd Express









and more...


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## Augusto (Mar 3, 2005)

Slagathor said:


> Bummer. I was just about to remark that that is "some very sweet electric wiring for the 1930s."


Yes but what you see on the picture IS the 1930' rolling stock, on their farewell trip in 1982.


----------



## donoteat (Mar 13, 2010)

A peculiarly American institution: the gallery car.










Rather than have the upper deck extend all the way across the car... well, you can look for yourself.












One may ask, why would anyone design anything like that?


Well, they were originally designed for commuter railways, which of course have rather short distances between stops. This makes it difficult for the conductor to check everyone's ticket in the time between stations. With standard bilevel cars, it's even worse. However, with the mezzanine seating in the gallery car, the conductor can make only one pass through the train in between stops, thereby rendering him able to check everyone's ticket.

They also have higher ground clearance and are able to stop at low-level platforms.

I ride these daily, and I can tell you that they are actually quite comfortable and nice to ride on.
(definitely better than those Swiss S-bahn bilevels I rode in Zurich- you could hardly stand up on the second level.)

Some of them have old-style reversible seats, which are the most amazing things in history.










(you know it's bad luck to sit backwards on a train after all- with reversible seating, you never have to sit backwards ever again!)


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

donoteat said:


> (you know it's bad luck to sit backwards on a train after all- with reversible seating, you never have to sit backwards ever again!)


Actually I prefer seating backwards....


----------



## Shifty2k5 (Jun 17, 2010)

slightly off topic.

Check out post #24 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=32276766&postcount=24) in this thread. Best double-decker I've seen all day!


----------



## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

^^ Huh? How do people climb up to the seats in the upper level in those US trains? I see no corridor...


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

There seems to be a very small path next to the chairs.










The stairs are also hidden from view, at least on the pictures on the internet.

From first look I find these gallery cars very commuter unfriendly, with these kind of coaches it's no wonder that passenger rail traffic in the US is so pathetic.


----------



## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Momo1435 said:


> There seems to be a very small path next to the chairs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We don't use those everywhere , i believe only 3 systems use them. Most Double Decker units we have are similar to Asian units on the inside. About the Passenger Rail Traffic , the West Coast , Chicago Metro ,& Northeast have growing Passenger Rail numbers. I guess the Average is 50,000 for In't standards. My state has 2 lines that meet that. I always have to stand of the double decker units thats how crowded they are. Even if its a 12 car train........And they expect every line to double or triple ridership growth over the next decade. As states are rebuilding there networks , more and more people are using the Larger system.


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^ If you have to stand in double decker trains it's time to go back to single deck trains, trains with less seats and more doors have a bigger passenger capacity and you can have shorter stops at the stations.


----------



## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Momo1435 said:


> ^^ If you have to stand in double decker trains it's time to go back to single deck trains, trains with less seats and more doors have a bigger passenger capacity and you can have shorter stops at the stations.


They use Single levels on that line to , but its at the point were you really can't do anything. Everything is crowded , most at the rush hours , but even in between its bad. There are trains every 10-30 mins , if your going towards NYC its every 10 mins , outbound every 10-30 mins depending on the hr. All lines that go to NYC are usually standing room only even on the single level trains.


----------



## Gadiri (Oct 30, 2009)

Edit


----------



## Gadiri (Oct 30, 2009)

GENIUS LOCI said:


> A bit more Italian doubble deckers
> 
> Tsr
> 
> ...


Moroccan Ansaldo Breda units like in Italia and Netherlands. 

We have 24 trains. Sometimes operating in double.


----------



## Trainviationfanatica (May 28, 2010)

BTW , How could we forget about this??


----------



## Trainviationfanatica (May 28, 2010)

Plus the Indian Double decker train:








And the City Night Line


----------



## Trainviationfanatica (May 28, 2010)

And the seats and berths of City Night Line


----------



## Trainviationfanatica (May 28, 2010)

Another Canadian Double-decker?


----------



## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Trainviationfanatica said:


> Another Canadian Double-decker?


Thats technically a NJT Double Decker / Loco , but we decided to do an International purchase with Montreal to save money. $$$$ so its just painted differently. But the Picture is taken in NJ. There not due for here intill late Next year at least the locos , we have the double decker units already.


----------



## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

The first modern double deckers in Germany were introduced by the Lübeck-Büchener Eisenbahn in 1936 for their streamliner express services between Lübeck/Travemünde and Hamburg. They used streamline steamers which already were navigable from the cab car.








http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelstock-Stromlinien-Wendezug_der_LBE


----------



## donoteat (Mar 13, 2010)

Momo1435 said:


> From first look I find these gallery cars very commuter unfriendly, with these kind of coaches it's no wonder that passenger rail traffic in the US is so pathetic.


The stairs are crammed into about nine square feet at each end of the corridor. You have to make about 270 degrees worth of turning to get out. The first time I got on one of these cars it kinda freaked me out. 
You get used to it, though. 

(and it's not as though it's discouraging people from riding. Every Virginia Railway Express train is packed to the gills after rush hour starts.)


Now, you want really uncomfortable cars and I'll show you the old Long Island Railroad MP-70s.










Look a little short, don't they?

Inside (and I apologize that I don't have a larger and/or better picture to show)










The seats alternated, one booth on top of two other booths, down the car. You took three steps up or three steps down from the corridor to get to your seat.


Ah, the good ol' days...


----------



## Uppsala (Feb 26, 2010)

This was the first double deckers in Sweden. They were built 1966-1967. It was DMU-trains and they vas called Y3. When they were new, they were used at the trains from Stockholm to Mora and from Malmö to Karlskrona. In that time that lines was not electrified all the way. Now the lines are electrified. From 1980s all of them moved to local trains from Malmö to Ystad. In that time also that line was not electrified, but it is now. In 1990s all of them was phased out and scrapped. No one of the exist now, the are all scrapped.










They were quite comfortable inside. They was like the InterCity standard in Sweden from that time.










The only double deck trains in Sweden now is the modern X40 EMU:s and they are not similar to the old ones.


----------



## satama (Nov 26, 2005)

thun said:


> The first modern double deckers in Germany were introduced by the Lübeck-Büchener Eisenbahn in 1936 for their streamliner express services between Lübeck/Travemünde and Hamburg. They used streamline steamers which already were navigable from the cab car.
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...stockwagen.jpg/800px-LBE_Doppelstockwagen.jpg
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelstock-Stromlinien-Wendezug_der_LBE


Beautiful design. Still looks fresh.


----------



## Andres_Low (Apr 21, 2010)

thun said:


> The first modern double deckers in Germany were introduced by the Lübeck-Büchener Eisenbahn in 1936 for their streamliner express services between Lübeck/Travemünde and Hamburg. They used streamline steamers which already were navigable from the cab car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sweet :drool:


----------



## thun (Aug 8, 2007)

After the war, double deckers became a speciality of the East German Reichsbahn (DR), while in Western Germany the Bundesbahn (DB) used only the pre-war LBE-units (see above) with V200 diesel locos till 1977 in regular Hamburg - Lübeck services (some more prototypes were buildt, however).

In Eastern Germany the first post-war double deckers were developed already in 1952 by VEB Waggonbau Görlitz (the supplier for the whole Communist bloc for double deckers back in the days). Over the time, several series came into service. A speciality is that several East German cities use double deckers for S-Bahn commuter networks, too.









































After the reunification and the merger of DB and DR to the DB AG, some of the socialist stock was modernized and got the "Western" painting scheme of the early 90ies.

















The Deutsche Waggonbau AG (formed out of the Eastern German rail car plants, since 1998 part of Bombardier) developed several series of double deck rail cars since 1992 which all were buildt in Görlitz:
























Today, those cars can be foundt all over the country (and not only in the East) in regional services were high capacities are necessary. They are used together with elder locos from the "Einheitsprogramm" (the standardized locos buildt in the 1950ies and '60ies) or new class 146 electric locomotives or class 218 diesels. DB doesn't operate intercity double deckers.
From next year on, Bombardier will deliver 800 new cars (worth 1.5bln Euros) for DB, including motorised cars so that for the first time double decker EMUs will be in service in Germany. (DB isn't buying new single deck rail cars for regional services by the way, but replacing the 40 year old current stock more and more with double deckers and EMUs or DMUs. Only a very small series of new single deckers were buildt in the late 1990ies.)

However, two propelled double decker prototypes were tested by DB AG. The tiny class 670 diesels (1994-2003) and the class 445 EMU ("Meridian") from 2000-2002.

















(further information in German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelstockwagen; all pics from there)


----------



## camuns (Oct 24, 2009)

Swiss double-deck units:

S-Bahn Zürich:

SBB Re 450











SBB RABe 514










(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Bahn_Zürich)

and the new Stadler DOSTO










(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Dosto)

And for the Intercity service:

IC2000










(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC2000)

Delivery of the TWINDEXX trains will begin in 2012










(http://www.bombardier.com/)


----------



## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Big pictures are too big.


----------



## amitnarayankar (Jun 30, 2010)

Some double Decker coaches in India



















http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UUZ3bT-9JUg/S71-89_monI/AAAAAAAAAXI
/TRqvsKLVkgw/s1600/Duble+Ducker+train+Sitting.jpg














































circa 1975









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYxLyantSqQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEBes7XwWiQ


----------



## amitnarayankar (Jun 30, 2010)




----------



## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Momo1435 said:


> Big pictures are too big.


Yeah, and wikipedia, always profides a smaller version!


----------



## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

I only really like the TGV Duplex trains, most other double decker train look odd...

I had the joy of travelling to Paris from Montpellier on one the other day


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

poshbakerloo said:


> I only really like the TGV Duplex trains, most other double decker train look odd...


You would probably like the news SBB doubledecker too then...

The big advantage of the TGV Duplex and the SBB IC2000 doubledecker is the continous upper deck.
- This place the maximum amount of passengers on the upper deck, where you can look over the sound barriers and still enjoy the landscape.
- This allows a drinks trolley to serve the whole train (however, SNCF doesn't do service...). On the SBB trains they announce on the lower deck when the trolley is passing on the upper deck so passengers below can just go up to get a drink.


----------



## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

china


----------



## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

greenlion said:


> china


japan


----------



## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

China

*NZJ1 - New First Light*
*Opens at Nanjing - Hangzhou & Shanghai -Nanjing in 1999 at speed 180 km/h, retire at 2007, now running ta Harbin - Qiqihar line at a speed of 160 km/h*


----------



## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*NZJ2 - Shenzhou*
*nickname "Great White Cat", opens at Beijing - Tianjin in 2000, retire at 2007, now running between Guilin - Nanjing - Liuzhou & Nanchang - Wuchang, Chibi - huangshi, top speed 180 km/h*


----------



## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*NZJ2 - Golden Wheel*
*first open at Lanzhou - Xining in 2001,top speed 180km/h*


----------



## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*DMU - Lushan*
*opens at Nanchang - Jiujiang in 1998, top speed 160km/h*


----------



## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*peninsula* double deck unit at Shenyang North station, it runs between Shenyang North - Dalian


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## Jay (Oct 7, 2004)

China, without doubt has some of the coolest trains in the world :cheers:


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## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*25B series double deck coach*
*120km/h design, manufacturer between 1989 - 1994*


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## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*140km/h design,manufacturer after 1994*


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## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*25z series double deck coach, manufacturer between 1993 - 1996,could run under top speed 160km/h*


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## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)

*25k series double deck coach, manufacturer between 1997 - 2003,could run under top speed 160km/h*


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## greenlion (Jul 30, 2010)




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## Jay (Oct 7, 2004)

milwaukee-københavn said:


> It's America...
> 
> It's actually kind of comical how oversized almost all of Amtrak's trains and especially their locomotives are. Especially considering how poor the rail infrastructure in America is.



What's bad about large trains? That thing could crush a battle tank. 

Locomotives that size exist in almost any country. Especially China and Russia, many of their trains are even larger or heavier than the US's. And I love them for it. Plus, Canada, Mexico and the rest of the America's use American style trains.


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## nick from Aus (Aug 13, 2010)

the new double decks in sydney are very modern and comfy.








did you know that the v sets (intercity trains) were the most luxurious in the world at their creation time.


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## nick from Aus (Aug 13, 2010)

nick from Aus said:


> the new double decks in sydney are very modern and comfy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


omg images won't show


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## bobke90 (Mar 7, 2010)

The Belgian double deck vehikels (M6)



























They are not realy luxurious (certain first class), but they are quite agreeable.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

bobke90 said:


> The Belgian double deck vehikels (M6)
> 
> They are not realy luxurious (certain first class), but they are quite agreeable.


And they don't need to be : typical journey on those trains is below one
hour.


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## Benn (Jan 10, 2007)

weird to have a locomotive part way through the train


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## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

It is because the LOCOs are not ETCS signalling compatible, but the trailer cabs are.


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## bobke90 (Mar 7, 2010)

cal_t said:


> It is because the LOCOs are not ETCS signalling compatible, but the trailer cabs are.


Yes, that's the reason. But these combinations are exceptional. They ride on tracks that connect Belgium and The Nederlands.

Mostly they ride in combinations of this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJAQHIdmjlo&feature=related

Loc+5cars+Loc+5cars (they split up at a specific station...)


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## Teach (Apr 17, 2009)

> Mostly they ride in combinations of this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJAQH...eature=related
> 
> Loc+5cars+Loc+5cars (they split up at a specific station...)


Actually, that too is a rather exceptional combination, only used on two lines. Most are in simple push-pull combinations with a single loco.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Teach said:


> Actually, that too is a rather exceptional combination, only used on two lines. Most are in simple push-pull combinations with a single loco.


In other countries this is quite common though. The first generation doubledeckers for the Zürich S-Bahn uses Loco + 2 cars + cab car consists. Up to three of these can be coupled.
The Dutch railways have been doing this for a while to, with loco + 3 cars + cab car or motor car + 2 cars + cab car.
The NMBS, being in a position that it could learn from the experiences of several other railways choose not to do so, and choose a system for coupling train consists that so far has not really performed reliably. They now schedule more time for the coupling or uncoupling of two sets with automatic couplers than SBB schedules for the coupling of sets with standard UIC buffer and hook couplers...


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^ Those examples are different from the trains in Belgium, this one is a fixed composition with a loco in the middle of the set rather then 2 or more sets coupled together. 

But it doesn't mean there aren't any examples in Europe where we see 1 loco in the middle of a train. In Switzerland it's common that they add a couple of extra cars to a push-pull set during rush hour. If it's possible they add a compostition with another driving trailer in front of the train, if they only got normal cars or if the driving trailer is facing the wrong direction they put the cars behind the loco creating a train with a loco in the middle like in Belgium.


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## Ωρτimuş (Mar 21, 2010)

Double-deck Z2M EMU in Morocco, manufactured by Ansaldo Breda


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## Ωρτimuş (Mar 21, 2010)




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## Ωρτimuş (Mar 21, 2010)




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## Name user 1 (Feb 13, 2011)

aliesperet said:


> Doesn't that ding motorise itself? It has got a pantograph, so why is it pulled by a locomotive? Or is there a different voltage on the overhead wires so the train can't work on it?


It does ...two-system electric unit enables operation on electrified tracks using 3 kV DC, or 25 kV/50 Hz and it completes the well tested series EJ471 (3 kV DC) and EJ575 (25 kV/50 Hz). 
*Technical data:*

```
Maximum speed:
160 km/h
Gauge:	1 435 mm
Length of three carriage set:	79 200 mm
Width of casing:
2 820 mm
Height of casing:
4 635 mm
Weight of set:
166,7 t
Number of seats:
307
Number of places for wheelchairs:
4
Traction motor power:
4 x 500 kW
Trolley line voltage:
3 kV DC, 25kV / 50Hz
```
It was delivered at that time for the inspection


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## NietoDelJaguar (Jun 22, 2005)

AMTRAK's "The Capitol Limited" 

Connects daily the cities of Washington, DC and Chicago 
On the eastbound trek, the Capitol Limited leaves from Chicago in the early evening (6:40 p.m.) and arrives in Washington, D.C. the next day in the early afternoon. (1:10 p.m.) On the westbound trek, it leaves Washington, D.C. late afternoon (4:05 p.m.) and arrives early morning in Chicago the next day. (8:45 a.m.) The appearance of a shorter westbound ride is due to the one-hour time difference between Washington, DC and Chicago



Arriving at Harpers Ferry Train Station in West Virgina  


Amtrak's Train #29 as it crosses The Potomac River into Harpers Ferry, West Virginia by Nieto_Del_Jaguar, on Flickr



AMTRAK Train #29 "The Capitol Limited" as it crosses The Potomac River by Nieto_Del_Jaguar, on Flickr


AMTRAK's P42DC #44 leads "The Capitol Limited" Westbound as it arrives at Harpers Ferry Train Station in West Virgina by Nieto_Del_Jaguar, on Flickr


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

NietoDelJaguar said:


> AMTRAK's "The Capitol Limited"
> 
> Connects daily the cities of Washington, DC and Chicago
> On the eastbound trek, the Capitol Limited leaves from Chicago in the early evening (6:40 p.m.) and arrives in Washington, D.C. the next day in the early afternoon. (1:10 p.m.) On the westbound trek, it leaves Washington, D.C. late afternoon (4:05 p.m.) and arrives early morning in Chicago the next day. (8:45 a.m.) The appearance of a shorter westbound ride is due to the one-hour time difference between Washington, DC and Chicago
> ...



Looks like those tracks are in desperate need of an upgrade...


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## Spikespiegel (Jul 13, 2009)

Sopomon said:


> Looks like those tracks are in desperate need of an upgrade...


Indeed... If that had been in Northern/Western Europe, I doubt that it would be allowed for trains to drive on tracks in such a bad shape.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Sopomon said:


> Looks like those tracks are in desperate need of an upgrade...


Therefore, I suggest you refrain from peeking at Canadian rails, because they're even more frightening-looking.

I once rode the overnight Montrealer southbound to NYC summertime. Being tossed around throughout many segments of our journey frightened me to the point that I suspected none of us passengers was going to make it alive to our respective destinations.

The following Spring, a washout occured on the stretch of line that was simply the worst to be riding along such that a northbound run tumbled into the eroded ravine, killing five.

*Welcome* to America!


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## Alseimik (Aug 30, 2010)

Spikespiegel said:


> Indeed... If that had been in Northern/Western Europe, I doubt that it would be allowed for trains to drive on tracks in such a bad shape.


We got a line in Denmark in that condition. It was used for special freight at 45 kmph, but is completely closed now.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Montreal's third-busiest commuter line --served only by double-deckers-- has speed limits of 10MPH (16KPH) for miles & miles on end hno: because of the dilapidated state of its tracking...

*Welcome* to 2011!


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## Spikespiegel (Jul 13, 2009)

Alseimik said:


> We got a line in Denmark in that condition. It was used for special freight at 45 kmph, but is completely closed now.


That's what I mean.... Here, you only find them on now abandoned freight lines.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Now you know why states are getting fed and buying the Railways form the Freight companies who don't maintain them. For the Northeastern states that means we can expand our Intercity / Regional Rail network faster and cheaper and then those trains get clearance over freight...


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Stadler Kiss

SBB (Switserland)
www.sbb.ch









Picture by: swiss









Picture by: swiss


WESTbahn (Austria)
http://www.westbahn.at/









Pictrue by: E42_151


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Momo1435 said:


> Stadler Kiss
> 
> SBB (Switserland)
> www.sbb.ch
> ...


I've never seen them before, very nice vehicles there!


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Sopomon said:


> Looks like those tracks are in desperate need of an upgrade...


Not necessarily. Using a telephotolens shortens the perspective, and makes the track look more wobbly then it really is. You see the same everywhere. The track in this case looks quite good actually.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)




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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

The picture above is just shows half of the actual Westbahn train.










Neat train. Even though they kinda look a like, Westbahn and SBB Stadler KISS differ quite a lot. 

Westbahn:
Long-distance traffic, Vmax 200 km/h

SBB:
Regional traffic, Vmax 160 km/h


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

KingNick said:


> The picture abovebelow


There's nothing inherently German about the Bulleid I've shared to which you were referring


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## steple (May 1, 2010)

Official factsheets from Stadler Rail:

SBB: http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/factsheets/KISS_DOSBBZ0908e.pdf

Westbahn: http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/KISS_DOWBZ0110e.pdf


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

SYZ25 Lushan, China's first modern double decker DMU, along with its single decker version is China's first DMU since 1958. The train was developed in 1998 by CNR Tangshan, 2M+2T configuration. Top speed 160km operation speed 120km. The trainset is already decommissioned.





















































Single decker Lushan


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

hmmwv said:


> SYZ25 Lushan, China's first modern double decker DMU, along with its single decker version is China's first DMU since 1958. The train was developed in 1998 by CNR Tangshan, 2M+2T configuration. Top speed 160km operation speed 120km. The trainset is already decommissioned.



Already decommissioned? Why?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

From the limited information and lack of pictures on the internet it was probably just a prototype that didn't go into mass production.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Woah! I was fooled by both the modernity and the refurbishment of those units, because, now that I think about it, the other alternating ones I'd seen were virtually identical to BA's here; having mused about accommodating motorised bogies beforehand, it never crossed my mind either fleet hailing from as early as the '50s


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Silly_Walks said:


> Cool posts, hmmwv.


+1


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## abraso (Jan 23, 2012)

This is italian TAF (Treno ad Alta Frequentazione, Train High Attendance), in this video near Naples.


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## Stainless (Jun 7, 2009)

trainrover said:


> How come single- and double-deckers are alternated in that BA unit (I can't remember what other network features alternating in their units ... some Japanese one?)?


They probably offer more room for wheelchair users too.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Which they?


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

Some brilliant shot from Austria:

ÖBB 8033 and WESTbahn 4010









Source:

```
http://www.bahnbilder. de/bild/oesterreich~wagen~doppelstockwagen/583873/doppelstock-x-2-begegnung-von-oebb.html
```
All credits to Stephan Kainberger.


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## krnboy1009 (Aug 9, 2011)

Was on Capitol Limited the other day. Superliner cars, only Superliner to go to East Coast.


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## Crownsteler (Aug 20, 2003)

The Dutch national railways (NS) recently unveiled the refurbished DD-AR double-decker trains. 
Before;








First Classs;








Second Class;








(photos; wikipedia)

After;
























First class;
























Second Class;
























(photos; Volkskrant/ANP)


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

Nice overhaul, but why is there a glas door now in the middle of the car?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

KingNick said:


> Nice overhaul, but why is there a glas door now in the middle of the car?


There always was a door halway the car. This is to prevent drafts when the train is stopped at a station, as there are no doors between the passenger cabin and the vestibules.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

There are doors between the passenger cabin and the vestibules, that's not the reason for the doors in the middle of the car. 

The doors are there because some parts of the upper floor have become silence areas, they keep those areas separated from the normal seating areas.


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## krnboy1009 (Aug 9, 2011)

Onboard Amtrak Superliner, Coast Starlight. 2 years ago.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

krnboy1009 said:


> Onboard Amtrak Superliner, Coast Starlight. 2 years ago.


I wasn't aware clunky video games being in vogue again, I think I spy coin slots too ... whether the lounge, dining, or regular coach car, there used to be seating there, which signifies a queer admission of Amtrak's ...


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

trainrover said:


> I wasn't aware clunky video games being in vogue again...


This is just to remind you that US railways haven't passed the 80's either.


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

^^^ This and the CRT TV in the background shows how far Amtrak has fallen.


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## krnboy1009 (Aug 9, 2011)

trainrover said:


> I wasn't aware clunky video games being in vogue again, I think I spy coin slots too ... whether the lounge, dining, or regular coach car, there used to be seating there, which signifies a queer admission of Amtrak's ...


None of them works neither.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

I wonder how the much older 1st class Coast Starlight Superliners themselves must've been retrofitted ...

By the looks of half of those Dutch retrofits, I presume Netherlanders never breakfast poorly


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## krnboy1009 (Aug 9, 2011)

Well either way though it was a comfortable trip. Highly recommended.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

From my experience, all Amtrak trains are highly comfortable. Very broad and comfy seats, but on the downside I never got on a coach with power plugs for your computer.


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## krnboy1009 (Aug 9, 2011)

Well most Amfleets have them, and I am sure most Superliners, even lounge cars have them.


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## Neb81 (Jun 14, 2010)

trainrover said:


> I've had little luck affirming any of my musings of British doubledecker stock.


It's strange, given the capacity problems on the network - and the amount of aging BR era stock still kicking around - that double deck equipment hasn't been more seriously considered.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Neb81 said:


> Overall, I am hazarding a guess (not having exact figures or being an engineer myself) that something like the Talgo 22 could be adapted to UK clearances, with relatively modest sacrifices in interior space. The existing 22 design species a height range of 4600mm, compared to 4115 for the UK, with width of 2850 compared to 2642 for UK.


I don't think it would work. The Talgo 22 concept asumes a minimum vehicle height of 4600mm, with interior height on both level about 2m. 
Now consider fitting this to the UK gauge. I don't think that taking of half a meter of the vehicle will only result in "modest sacrifices" to interior space. It would be impossible to have two passenger levels with interior height of 1m95, which is about the minimum you want.

Just consider the following:
1950 + 1950 + 150 = 4050. So you would have 65mm left for structure. Just can't be done.

Double deck cars also have the disadvantage of longer dwell times, which is exactly what you don't want on the London suburban network. I think that a better solution is to improve signalling so that you can run more trains.


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## Neb81 (Jun 14, 2010)

K_ said:


> I don't think it would work. The Talgo 22 concept asumes a minimum vehicle height of 4600mm, with interior height on both level about 2m.
> Now consider fitting this to the UK gauge. I don't think that taking of half a meter of the vehicle will only result in "modest sacrifices" to interior space. It would be impossible to have two passenger levels with interior height of 1m95, which is about the minimum you want.
> 
> Just consider the following:
> ...


Increased frequency would be great, I agree. The problem with increased frequency though ins't just signalling, but terminal capacity. Most of the London terminal stations are nearing the limits of their capacity in terms of platforms, and most of them cannot be easily expanded. The sheer number of commuter routes in inner South London means that even modest increases in frequency wind up with a LOT more trains trying to get into the finite space of the termini. 

In an ideal world, you would extend the Underground/Tramlink/Crossrail to take over routes like the Hayes, Epsom, Caterham branches etc. to get those services out of the terminals and free up platform slots, but that is very unlikely to happen, at least within the foreseeable future.


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

K is right, the loading guage is too restrictive - at least on the London SE commuter network. It is not beyond the realms of possibility, but the investment in super materials and systems required to make them small enough and comply with modern standards would most likely be larger than rebuilding every bridge.

The business risk in attempting such a project is so huge that it will not be pursued, but I have to point out it is an option that is scoped out at every RUS and then immediately rejected - so it is in fact taken seriously, its just not practicable.


----------



## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

It seems passenger cabins are narrower on trains that appear to tilt(?), as far ss I can tell from images and videos.


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## Neb81 (Jun 14, 2010)

makita09 said:


> K is right, the loading guage is too restrictive - at least on the London SE commuter network. It is not beyond the realms of possibility, but the investment in super materials and systems required to make them small enough and comply with modern standards would most likely be larger than rebuilding every bridge.
> 
> The business risk in attempting such a project is so huge that it will not be pursued, but I have to point out it is an option that is scoped out at every RUS and then immediately rejected - so it is in fact taken seriously, its just not practicable.


I didn't know about it coming up in the RU studies. Thanks for the info, Makita.


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

trainrover said:


> It seems passenger cabins are narrower on trains that appear to tilt(?), as far ss I can tell from images and videos.


Yes, they must be to clear the structure gauge, such as tunnels and high platforms on curves.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

K_ said:


> Just consider the following:
> 1950 + 1950 + 150 = 4050. So you would have 65mm left for structure.


A TGV Duplex has a height of 4320mm. I would consider that the absolute minimum. German Dosto's are already over 30 centimeters taller. So you can pretty much rule them out for the UK loading gauge.



K_ said:


> Double deck cars also have the disadvantage of longer dwell times, which is exactly what you don't want on the London suburban network. I think that a better solution is to improve signalling so that you can run more trains.


You have to consider dwell time vs capacity. A double decker can carry roughly 45% more passengers, but not at the expense of a 45% longer dwelling time. You can also provide larger doors: The doors of Dutch DD-AR for instance are wide enough so three people can get through at the same time (about 3m wide). 

Also consider: If you run 3 single deck trains instead of 2 double deckers you also need more rolling stock and more staff to run them. And all the improved signalling in the world won't help once you inevitably run into service disturbances.

In the end double deckers must be the better solution (I didn't say best!), otherwise it wouldn't have been used in a large number of countries around the world.


----------



## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

I think, in the UK double decker is possible, but not really practical for a few reasons. 
The high platforms are not an issue, take a look at Sydney for that.
The dwell times aren't either. There are very few commuter trains with more than four doors on each car (two at each end).
The loading gauge is the largest problem and there are multiple issues with it. The height is not too much of a problem if you have the bottom floor of the lower deck as close to the tracks as possible, and have the auxillary equipment housed on the roof above the doorways, where it is single-deck. (Note the Japanese E-231 (I believe?) narrow guage double deck EMU)
The biggest problem is the fact that the British loading gauge narrows signifigantly beneath the platform height, and the bottom deck would likely be a 1+1 or a 1+2 arrangement, so the gains wouldn't exactly be that great.


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Sopomon said:


> The dwell times aren't either. There are very few commuter trains with more than four doors on each car (two at each end).


Actually many commuter networks use trains with more than two doors per side. Look at the German S-Bahn for example. Four doors per side are quite common.
With double deckers you also have more passengers, who have a longer way from their seat to the door, as the doors will be at the end, and can't be more towards the middle.
For that reason the Zürich S-Bahn (which is now using double deckers almost exclusively) is investigating single deck stock for its busiest lines.



> The loading gauge is the largest problem and there are multiple issues with it. The height is not too much of a problem if you have the bottom floor of the lower deck as close to the tracks as possible, and have the auxillary equipment housed on the roof above the doorways, where it is single-deck.


You can't lower the bottom of the carriage further than 150mm above the rail. That means that you have less than 4m available for two decks, a roof, and space for passengers in between. That means that having 2m headroom on both decks is going to be impossible.


----------



## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

K_ said:


> With double deckers you also have more passengers, who have a longer way from their seat to the door, as the doors will be at the end, and can't be more towards the middle.


Actually the newer trains (Siemens and Stadler) of the S-Bahn Zürich have their doors closer to the middle then the others. Which means that the upper deck is reaching the door from the far end of the coach instead from the middle. Additionally one could add a third door on the middle of the lower deck.


> For that reason the Zürich S-Bahn (which is now using double deckers almost exclusively) is investigating single deck stock for its busiest lines.


Actually not for the busiest lines. The busiest lines on the network are express (or skip) lines (S5, S12), and single deck coaches make the least sense there. The idea is actually to add new "inner" lines that don't reach the outskirts of the network, those would be single deck.

I actually would prefer three door coaches with a fast in/out lower deck and a upper deck for people who travel more than just 2 or 3 stations.


----------



## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

K_ said:


> Actually many commuter networks use trains with more than two doors per side. Look at the German S-Bahn for example. Four doors per side are quite common.
> With double deckers you also have more passengers, who have a longer way from their seat to the door, as the doors will be at the end, and can't be more towards the middle.
> For that reason the Zürich S-Bahn (which is now using double deckers almost exclusively) is investigating single deck stock for its busiest lines.
> 
> ...




What I meant was that nearly all trains on the UK commuter network have only two doors per side. (Keeping it relevant).

And perhaps there are some routes with higher clearances?


----------



## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

^^ The only UK trains I can think of that don't are the Pacers, with 1 or 2 doors per (very short) car. But they should be blown to pieces anyway. In a Top Gear special.

There is a preference for the 1/3rd 2/3rd door arrangements on commuter trains as opposed to having the doors at the end, which has some impact on the DD discussion.

Some routes have higher clearances yes, specifically all the intercity mainline routes, but these are not much bigger, and are primarily for freight (so there are many important passenger linkages that aren't gauge-improved), and almost none of the commuter networks that really need the capacity increase are included.


----------



## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

makita09 said:


> There is a preference for the 1/3rd 2/3rd door arrangements on commuter trains as opposed to having the doors at the end, which has some impact on the DD discussion.


What is the average travel time in these trains? Are there requirements for the number of seats and standees? As travel time shortens you can increase the number of doors and standees and reduce the number of seats. Look at Japan for examples. There they use all types ranging from 1 small door per car to 4 wide doors per car.


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Average travel time for commuter heavy rail is usually between 20 and 60 minutes. The further out from London the more likely the train is to have 2+2 seating, closer and its more likely 3+2 seating (ie smaller seats) and more standing area. Capacity is determined by seating only, and any standing for longer than a certain amount of time (I think 20 minutes) is considered over capacity, and strategies are developed to alleviate the capacity problem.

When I used commute from north east Kent to London in the morning every train would have a couple of hundred people (often including me) standing all the way in to London which took about 30 minutes, which would be in addition to the 800-1000 sitting, and there were 15 trains per hour. Due to the frequency of service there would be no benefit using DD trains as the increased dwell time offsets the increased train capacity.


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## Neb81 (Jun 14, 2010)

makita09 said:


> ^^ The only UK trains I can think of that don't are the Pacers, with 1 or 2 doors per (very short) car. But they should be blown to pieces anyway. In a Top Gear special.


^^ with* FIRE* ^^


----------



## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

and then the audience explodes and then Jeremy Clarkson explodes and then there's an explosion. I hope they reduce the pacers to a proton plasma.


----------



## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

makita09 said:


> and then the audience explodes and then Jeremy Clarkson explodes and then there's an explosion. I hope they reduce the pacers to a proton plasma.


I wish there was a "like" button for that.

I'm just surprised that they haven't been replaced yet, surely something from Stadler or PESA would be just fine? (Admittedly it wouldn't be one of their off-the-shelf products)


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Sopomon said:


> I wish there was a "like" button for that.
> 
> I'm just surprised that they haven't been replaced yet, surely something from Stadler or PESA would be just fine? (Admittedly it wouldn't be one of their off-the-shelf products)


Stadler wouldn't have much trouble building UK compatible Flirt.


----------



## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Sopomon said:


> I wish there was a "like" button for that.
> 
> I'm just surprised that they haven't been replaced yet, surely something from Stadler or PESA would be just fine? (Admittedly it wouldn't be one of their off-the-shelf products)


There are only three train manufacturers in the world - Siemens, Hitachi, and some blokes in Derby. Or at least this is what the DfT believes.


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## Gag Halfrunt (Jun 25, 2006)

Sopomon said:


> I'm just surprised that they haven't been replaced yet, surely something from Stadler or PESA would be just fine? (Admittedly it wouldn't be one of their off-the-shelf products)


There's a company called CSRE that tried to get UK train operators interested in Chinese DMUs, pitching them as an affordable replacement for Pacers. They had concept illustrations of DMUs and EMUs designed to fit the UK loading gauge on their website, but now they've set their sights lower and are offering Chinese-made components and spare parts instead.


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## Christopher125 (Mar 10, 2011)

Apparently the emergence of a rolling programme of electrification has pretty much killed off interest in buying new DMU's for the time being - it's even been suggested that recent changes in regulations would require a new design anyway, an unlikely prospect with no sizeable orders on the horizon.

Chris


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

^^ More the other way around in my opinion - the ROSCOs, being banks, didn't understand why they should purchase the more expensive and less efficient products and hold them on their books for a long period when it was so obvious to everyone that electrification was the answer. Basically they collectively refused to purchase many more DMUs.


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## la bestia kuit (Aug 10, 2005)

EMFER Doble decker EMUs


















Double decker Coach


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## SkyGurt (Aug 3, 2012)

Jay said:


> China, without doubt has some of the coolest trains in the world :cheers:


China buys technology from Europe, anyway. 
To make something futuristic looking, not a big deal.


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## mw123 (Oct 23, 2009)

New Waratah trains on the Cityrail network in Sydney.


CityRail's new Waratah Train or A Set - A5 & A3 by Squeakaz, on Flickr


Cityrail's New Waratah Train or A set - A1 Richmond by Squeakaz, on Flickr


Cityrail's New Waratah train or A set - A4 by Squeakaz, on Flickr


CityRail's New Waratah Train or A set - A3 by Squeakaz, on Flickr


Cityrails new Waratah train or A Set - A4 by Squeakaz, on Flickr


Cityrail's New Waratah train or A Set - A2 by Squeakaz, on Flickr


Cityrail's New Waratah Train or A set - A3 by Squeakaz, on Flickr


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## dale88 (Apr 24, 2009)

Sopomon said:


> The dwell times aren't either. There are very few commuter trains with more than four doors on each car (two at each end).


Actually this has been solved in Paris on RER A (paris Regional Commuter Rail) which is Europe's busiest commuter line (trains are literally queuing on the central section of the line inside Paris during rush hour)

The line is being converted into a fully double deck train line and single deckers are being retired. Mi2N and Mi09 trainsets (both manufactured by Alstom) are now making most of the line's fleet. Their top speed in service is 140 km/h and a 10-car set can carry about 2600+ passengers.


In 1997, the RATP (paris transit agency) and SNCF introduced the Mi2N (ratp name)/ Z 22500 (SNCF designation) which are 5 car sets EMU's that generally run in pairs.

They have 3 wide doors per sides and 4 staircases (only 2 on the SNCF version) leading to either a side door or the middle doors 










http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNLHQYacaFU

And the newest EMU's are the Mi09 bought by the RATP to phase out the last single deck EMU's on RER A line.

These trains are an evolution of the Mi2N trainsets with a new interior, better air cond, ugly paint scheme and very ugly train front.










They always remind me of the Stormtroopers in Star Wars:lol:










And a video to show you the trainset in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFGEyw2TKDA

A video showing the exterior and interior of the train:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhQu7Sz7aCs

And a train queuing behind another one during rush hour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hx3M_zSFaw

The train leaving the station, is a Ms61 and are the oldest trains on the line. They were refurbished a few years ago and have the largest capacity for the single deck trainsets. They run either in sets of 9 cars (rush hour and weekdays off hours) or 6 cars (weekends and weekdays off hours).

The train queuing in the tunnel is a Mi84, similar to the Mi79 on line B, and have the least capacity, being only composed of 4 cars or 8 cars.

dale88


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## Vicvin86 (Oct 27, 2008)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAVzBgRfyDE


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

What is the center rail in the above picture with the new RATP trains for?

It's the picture with the "stormtroopers" remark.


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Vicvin86 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAVzBgRfyDE


>SUPERB ACCELERATION OF BEAUTIFUL DOUBLE DECKER

God I love Indian youtube


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## Vaud (Sep 16, 2011)

Sopomon said:


> >SUPERB ACCELERATION OF BEAUTIFUL DOUBLE DECKER
> 
> God I love Indian youtube


I had exactly the same thought :lol:

Anyone knows what's the maximum lenght of indian trains? That one looks fairly large


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Sopomon said:


> >SUPERB ACCELERATION OF BEAUTIFUL DOUBLE DECKER


A nice train, but far from "superb" acceleration. With only one engine in front of such a heave train you don't expect good acceleration anyway.

Now this one accelerates...


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## dale88 (Apr 24, 2009)

zaphod said:


> What is the center rail in the above picture with the new RATP trains for?
> 
> It's the picture with the "stormtroopers" remark.


The center rail's function is to transmit to the double decker trains, the images of the cameras installed on the platform so that the driver can directly watch on the screens inside his cabin. 

On single deck trains, the drivers still have to watch on the screens installed outside on the platform, or worse watch a large mirror that reflects the platform.

These cameras help the drivers while closing the doors of train, they can immediately know when to stop the doors from closing and also what is preventing the doors from normally closing. 

dale88


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

fascinating

I'm surprised they haven't shifted to using wireless networking technology for sending digital video.


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## Vicvin86 (Oct 27, 2008)

Vaud said:


> I had exactly the same thought :lol:
> 
> Anyone knows what's the maximum lenght of indian trains? That one looks fairly large


Express trains are close to 550m in length. The double deckers have less number of coaches compared with long distance trains


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## Vicvin86 (Oct 27, 2008)

Delhi - Jaipur AC double decker






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOMuIekBKqw


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## Exethalion (Dec 23, 2008)

^^

11 Double Deckers, all AC, that must be approaching one of the highest capacities for any regular service AC train surely?


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## Vaud (Sep 16, 2011)

Exethalion said:


> ^^
> 
> 11 Double Deckers, all AC, that must be approaching one of the highest capacities for any regular service AC train surely?


That's actually about the size of regular IC trains in Switzerland










To which often some 1 deck coaches are added at peak times.

however I've seen much longer trains in this same thread!


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Vaud said:


> That's actually about the size of regular IC trains in Switzerland


There is actually a SBB service that is run with 16 coaches and 2 engines. It's however a late night train (leaves Zürich for Bern at 00:02) so I asume only part of the train will be open to the public, and SBB only runs this long train to get some cars at the right place for the next morning...

Consists of 16 doubledecker cars should however become more common in the future, once the "Twindexx Swiss Express" trains start running.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Exethalion said:


> ^^
> 
> 11 Double Deckers, all AC, that must be approaching one of the highest capacities for any regular service AC train surely?


GO Train, the commuter rail service in the Toronto-Hamilton region, uses 12 double deckers. Capacity is 1,944 people or 162 people/double decker.


Fleet of Toys by Jack Landau, on Flickr


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

isaidso said:


> GO Train, the commuter rail service in the Toronto-Hamilton region, uses 12 double deckers. Capacity is 1,944 people or 162 people/double decker.


12 cars, american style, I suppose fitted with AC... and I see (the red stripes...)
there is a driving cabin at the end of each set. That implies it's only powered
by one loc, which also must provide HEP. The acceleration must certainly not be
spectacular ! This is for a suburban service... how far apart are the stations ?


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Paris MI09 (RER A)
Trains are made of 2 EMU of 5 cars.
The capacity of a train (2 EMU) is 2,610 passengers.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

MarcVD said:


> 12 cars, american style, I suppose fitted with AC... and I see (the red stripes...)
> there is a driving cabin at the end of each set. That implies it's only powered
> by one loc, which also must provide HEP. The acceleration must certainly not be
> spectacular ! This is for a suburban service... how far apart are the stations ?


Well Canada is in America, so that would make sense. 

The coaches are primairly pulled/pushed by MPI MP40 locomotives and coincided with the move from 10 cars to 12. I've never ridden on GO Train, but the stations look to be about 6-8 km apart. To put things in perspective, Hamilton to the west is approximately 70 km from Union Station while Oshawa is about 60 km in the other direction. Heading north to Allandale from Union Station is about 80 km, while Union Station to Kitchener (Green Line) is about 90 km.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Hardly a commuter system then xD


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## Myrtonos (Jun 4, 2012)

One thing that no one seems to have yet noted is that some double decker trains have doors on the lower deck while others have them over the bogies. Now I realise that the "two level" carriages are suited to dwelling at lower platforms, did all such places always have lower platforms or did some of those countries rebuild stations for low entry double decker trains?



Neb81 said:


> ...problem one could be solved by using Talgo style bogies. This would mean the floor could be lowered considerably, giving far more height on the passenger decks. This could be further improved by adopting modern "thin wall" construction techniques, maximizing the width available in the passenger decks.
> 
> Since the Talgo bogie has no joining axle, passenger access between carriages could be incorporated on both decks, easing movement and distribution of passengers and also helping create a sense of a more open environment than the 4-DD. This has already been demonstrated to be possible on the Talgo 22 prototype.
> 
> ...





Sopomon said:


> I think, in the UK double decker is possible, but not really practical for a few reasons.
> The high platforms are not an issue, take a look at Sydney for that.
> The dwell times aren't either. There are very few commuter trains with more than four doors on each car (two at each end).


The Sydney suburban trains, and interurban EMUs, like all split level trains, only have low floors and upper decks between the bogies, so it's a simple matter of placing the doors over the bogies. The Talgo 22 is basically a double decked heavy rail version of the low floor trams found in Zürich and Vienna.
Could platforms be lowered and has this been done before on heavy rail?


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## chaking-2014 (May 24, 2013)

algeria


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## chaking-2014 (May 24, 2013)

algerie dans la cabine de conduite d'une rame RER : décembre 2012


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## chaking-2014 (May 24, 2013)

algerie 14/06/2013


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## chaking-2014 (May 24, 2013)




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## chaking-2014 (May 24, 2013)

algeria 02/02/2013


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## chaking-2014 (May 24, 2013)




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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

^^ those aren't doubledeckers.:nuts:


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

^^
This is a really cool design double-deck train, it's very special single deck - doubledeck train


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## earthJoker (Dec 15, 2004)

Myrtonos said:


> Could platforms be lowered and has this been done before on heavy rail?


Switzerland always had low platforms. Actually some platforms were even lower before the introduction of the double deck S-Bahn.


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

In Germany the platforms are sometimes 20 cm higher than the wagon floor.


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

In Italy the higher platforms are at 55 cm (like in Switzerland), so doubledeckers with doors at the low floor section are at the same level:











Older doucledeckers with doors over the bogies can be accessed only with some steps:


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## SydneyCity (Nov 14, 2010)

Australian Double Deckers:

*S-Set* - Launched 1971, currently operates suburban services in Sydney (however they are currently being withdrawn from service). They also operated suburban services in Wollongong until 2012.


Give / Iske - Dulwich Hill, Sydney - 2013 by Eddie Haskel's Sydney Graffiti Flicks II, on Flickr

Cityrail S Set by D 4004, on Flickr

P8080286 - Vandalism of CityRail's Comeng S-set motor car C3856 found during preparation of train at Waterfall by navarzo4, on Flickr
*K-Set* - Launched 1981, operates suburban services in Sydney and Newcastle. Very similar to the S-Set, but with more features such as air conditioning.


K Set - K74 at Auburn by Squeakaz, on Flickr

2012-05-15_1629-35-140 by drueyjay, on Flickr

*T-Set* - Launched in 1988, it operates suburban services in Sydney and in Wollongong.


Tangara Set T36 at Sutherland with new signals by glenn5108, on Flickr

Refurbished Tangara (Vesty) by Kaine1991, on Flickr

Refurbished Tangara (Upper Deck) by Kaine1991, on Flickr

*M-Set* - Launched 2002, it operates suburban services in Sydney.


Sydney Suburban Trains, Millennium Set M23 departs Ashfield Station by john cowper, on Flickr

Cityrail train interior by brianapa, on Flickr

*A-Set* - Launched in 2011, operates Sydney suburban services.


CityRail's new Waratah Train or A Set - A3 by Squeakaz, on Flickr

CityRail's New Waratah Train or A set - A3 by Squeakaz, on Flickr

*V-Set* - Introduced 1970 (although the older sets have been withdrawn), operates intercity services from Sydney to Newcastle and the Blue Mountains.


CITYRAIL V Set Bell by kommissar_todd06, on Flickr

V-Set 8115, Katoomba by Solent Images, on Flickr

*H-Set* - Operates intercity services from Sydney to Newcastle and Wollongong.


Oscar at Bombo by The_Twominator, on Flickr

H31 at Wollongong by PJ Reading, on Flickr

Interior, Oscar OD6964, Sydney, NSW by dunedoo, on Flickr


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## chaking-2014 (May 24, 2013)

trains of algeria bulit in Switzerland by stadler


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

Doubledecker = Two floors, or two levels! :bash:


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## elab (Sep 18, 2009)

SydneyCity said:


> Australian Double Deckers:


Nice review! Spectacular DD-trains!


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

da_scotty said:


> Hardly a commuter system then xD


How is it not a commuter system? Go Transit is the commuter service for the Greater Golden Horseshoe. :weird:


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## Kamov (Jan 24, 2013)

Special train with fotball fans heading for the Romanian Supercup final.

Interior of these carriages (they're awful):


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

What a surprise! The horrible AnsaldoBreda seats!   

Those carriages seems to be GDR-made ("Görlitz") with refurbished interiors.


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

The same seats in Italy, everyone hates them :bash:


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## Kamov (Jan 24, 2013)

Indeed those are Goerlitz carriages refubrished by Electroputere Pascani (ex Remarul Pascani) in Romania.









This is how they looked before.
These are individual carriages.
There is also a similar train composed of 4 carriages which can't be separated.


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## asahi (Dec 28, 2007)

friedrichstrasse said:


> What a surprise! The horrible AnsaldoBreda seats!
> 
> Those carriages seems to be GDR-made ("Görlitz") with refurbished interiors.


What's so terrible about those seats? Are they really uncomfortable?


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

Yes, they are. Too hard and not ergonomic at all.

Anyway the seats installed in Romania were lightly redesigned, and fortunately the headrests are now concave, and not convex as the italian ones are.

In Italy, after a few years of use, they look this way, because the material is too light... Good luck, Romania! :lol:


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

friedrichstrasse said:


> The same seats in Italy, everyone hates them :bash:


Yes. This is my main reasong of hate on modern European railways: after seats got more and more comfy for decades, now they are going back. This is one of the worse examples, but also Desiro, Talent and Flirt trains have horrid seating.


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

That's true, but none of them is so unconfortable like those ones...


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Z 20500
Built between 1988 and 1998.
This stock run in the RER C, D and various other suburban lines in Paris.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

friedrichstrasse said:


> What a surprise! The horrible AnsaldoBreda seats!


Wow, doesn't seem there's much they CAN get right over at AnsaldoBreda, isn't there?


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

Those kind of doubledecker trains were built by Ansaldobreda and work quite well.
Anyway the interiors are unconfortable, especially the seats...


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## Vicvin86 (Oct 27, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk_Sp3q-lj8


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

> The same seats in Italy, everyone hates them


Indeed, I can imagine. However, they can use those (new) interiors as a set for some 1970's vibe sci-fi movie, and the (old) ones for a post-apocalyptic zombie flick:nuts:


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Robi_damian said:


> Yes. This is my main reasong of hate on modern European railways: after seats got more and more comfy for decades, now they are going back. This is one of the worse examples, but also Desiro, Talent and Flirt trains have horrid seating.


Don't blame the manufacturers. Blame the railways. When a railway orders trains it specifies the seats. There are Flirts out there with excellent interiors.


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## friedrichstrasse (Jan 8, 2007)

Don't blame anyone but the designers...


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Double-decker trains in Versailles Chantier station, the main train station of Versailles in the southwestern suburbs of Paris.

Z 26500 (TER NG) built between 2004 and 2010


















Z 5600 (Z2N) built between 1982 and 1985


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

friedrichstrasse said:


> Don't blame anyone but the designers...


The designers will design what they are told to design. I know of modern regional trains with excellent interiors...


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## mpeculea (Jan 7, 2013)

^^
Show us, schow us!


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Myrtonos said:


> And here's a thought. An individual double decker train can carry something like 50% more people (under normal loading conditions) than an equivalent single decker. How far does it need to go without stopping to carry (almost) 50% more people on each service?


I don't really understand your question. Could you elaborate? 
Or are you implying that a double decker would need to travel longer distances non stop than a single decker? Why would that be the case?


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## JanPlomer (Dec 11, 2015)

*Double deck trainset of an alternative design*

Hello,

what do you mean about this arrangement of a double deck trainset? The bogie design allows this length of car bodies by 2800 width.

s18.postimg.org/d3ym4q37d/image.jpg

s1.postimg.org/6et9f5sm7/image.jpg

Jan


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

^^
Why the triple axle?


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## JanPlomer (Dec 11, 2015)

Sopomon said:


> ^^
> Why the triple axle?


 To carry all the weight and have shorter space, where are bogies and longer part of vehicle able to accommodate two decks.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Why do some emu's have jacob bogies and others have really long split bogies long balcony configuration.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Conventional bogies and Jacobs bogies each have their advantages and disadvantages, that more or less cancel out each other nowadays. Thus it's more constructors and customers preference then technical necessity to prefer one over the other. 
However two major differences remain: A Jacobs bogie train can only be (un)coupled in a workshop, and you have weight restrictions because you have less axles per train length, making driven Jacobs bogies on double decker trains very difficult, unless you use a creative solution like the Bombardier Regio 2N.


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## JanPlomer (Dec 11, 2015)

It's not only black and white. Bombardier Regio 2N is really clever, but ...
Link: s12.postimg.org/43nv4fqn1/image.jpg


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## patel2897 (Jul 20, 2013)

*WAP5 Fastest Mumbai Ahmedabad Double Decker Express Whines* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=


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## oberoende (Dec 2, 2007)

JanPlomer said:


> Hello,
> 
> what do you mean about this arrangement of a double deck trainset? The bogie design allows this length of car bodies by 2800 width.
> 
> Jan


What is the distance between bogie centres in your design? Your pictures suggest it is about 25 metres. I think this is a problem as it gives very much overhang in curves (the dynamic envelope aspect of loading gauge). Which rail system is it for?


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## JanPlomer (Dec 11, 2015)

oberoende said:


> What is the distance between bogie centres in your design? Your pictures suggest it is about 25 metres. I think this is a problem as it gives very much overhang in curves (the dynamic envelope aspect of loading gauge). Which rail system is it for?


Distance between bogie centres is 24m, but distance between bogie pivots is 19m. Pivots are not in centre. This allows fulfill european gauge width according to EN 15 273.
This concept is applicable to UK overthrows with distance between pivots 17 300 and distance between bogie centres 23 300, of course with changed reference profile.


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

JanPlomer said:


> Hello,
> 
> what do you mean about this arrangement of a double deck trainset? The bogie design allows this length of car bodies by 2800 width.
> 
> ...


00


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

JanPlomer said:


> It's not only black and white. Bombardier Regio 2N is really clever, but ...
> Link:


00


----------



## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

M-NL said:


> Conventional bogies and Jacobs bogies each have their advantages and disadvantages, that more or less cancel out each other nowadays. Thus it's more constructors and customers preference then technical necessity to prefer one over the other.
> However two major differences remain: A Jacobs bogie train can only be (un)coupled in a workshop, and you have weight restrictions because you have less axles per train length, making driven Jacobs bogies on double decker trains very difficult, unless you use a creative solution like the Bombardier Regio 2N.


Most if not all multiple units perform together for eternity if they don't get into an accident so they are meant to be separated into their components only when visiting the maintenance depots anyway.



M-NL said:


> These separation doors are mainly a relic from the past, from the time the transfer tunnels between the cars (or is there an other English word for that?) were very noisy. By using 2 doors you could somewhat shield the passengers from those noises. Added bonus of course is that they also dampen the platform noise during stops.


Actually it was the other way around. The door of the saloon/compartment was directly to the outside. And then they added side corridors in the compartment coaches and OPEN end vestibules to the saloons wich themselves were in latter years closed.



M-NL said:


> The current Dasye/EuroDuplex will be very difficult to replace, because they go against all current trends:
> 
> Power cars instead of distributed traction. The latter is nearly impossible to do with a 17 tonne axle load limit and Jacobs bogies (an Alstom centre-piece) => Use 'regular' bogies
> The capacity difference between a Duplex (508 seats) and an AGV (NTV: 460 seats) isn't that big anymore (compared to 377 seats on a TGV POS)
> ...


The new duplex version after 2N2 will be AGV based with the powerpacks on the extreme end cars and distributed power like the AGV. There are no news yet if these end cars would be fully or partially dedicated to the powerpacks (either a lower level was subtracted like DDm or other option?) ... the transformers weight about 6,5ton. wich is equivalent to a coach full of passengers.



Gusiluz said:


> TGV Duplex: 320 km/h
> 
> Shinkansen double deck:
> 100 series, two floors in 2 or 4 cars of some series (1986/2012) 66 sets
> ...


French TGV = 320km/h
Shinkansen 2 level trainsets = 240km/h <<< this is the main reason they were/are being replaced ... too slow


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache...ril?guid=7c395bc2-d111-4a0c-be5d-62d22c0b4100
http://www.simi.pt/pt/projetos/72?id_categoria=33










http://sabiasque.pt/trabalho/notici...-25-de-abril-nao-autorizada-pelo-governo.html
^^ Just to add the source of the pictue ... the subject of the news is irrelevant here.









https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/fertagus-lisboa?select=Xztgip0i_M6wwmNLnxj_WA


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

da_scotty said:


> Why do some emu's have jacob bogies and others have really long split bogies long balcony configuration.




With the Dutch Railways (NS) they are used for their wide openings in between cars so the whole train is visible from each end within. The visibility stretches out to almost 100m (300ft). 



M-NL said:


> The current Dasye/EuroDuplex will be very difficult to replace, because they go against all current trends:
> 
> Power cars instead of distributed traction. The latter is nearly impossible to do with a 17 tonne axle load limit and Jacobs bogies (an Alstom centre-piece) => Use 'regular' bogies
> The capacity difference between a Duplex (508 seats) and an AGV (NTV: 460 seats) isn't that big anymore (compared to 377 seats on a TGV POS)
> ...



About Dutch double-deckers: the DD-AR/DDZ is an example of how doors should be made in double-deckers: at least 2 meters wide to force people to go in and out faster. This really decreases dwell times significantly (1,5 minute unfill/refill in total should be acceptable). The VIRM has smaller ones (so 2:30 minutes) and the difference is significant. But ICR is the worst: 2 minutes to empty the train and then another 2 for filling it causing delays is very common. And that is just one single deck!


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## Myrtonos (Jun 4, 2012)

K_ said:


> I don't really understand your question. Could you elaborate?
> Or are you implying that a double decker would need to travel longer distances non stop than a single decker? Why would that be the case?


If a train goes for longer without stopping, the operator can dwell less on dwell time.


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Portuguese double deckers run on the tagus bridge route (average 2/3km between stops or even more) and on the central corridor (linha de cintura) where they are known to create nightmares due to their only having that same 2meter wide doors ... it's a matter of knowing when enough is enough ... french 2deckers have 3 sets of doors 









http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/private/passenger/RATP/MI09/pix.html
Photo Patrick Meunier www.pixyrail.com


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## mrsmartman (Mar 16, 2015)

sotavento said:


> Portuguese double deckers run on the tagus bridge route (average 2/3km between stops or even more) and on the central corridor (linha de cintura) where they are known to create nightmares due to their only having that same 2meter wide doors ... it's a matter of knowing when enough is enough ... french 2deckers have 3 sets of doors
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That will require a lot of stairs.


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

RATP comuter trains have a lot of stairs. :cheers:


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## aquaticko (Mar 15, 2011)

Cross-post from the South Korean high speed rail thread. Bilevel KTX apparently coming this summer:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=139641639&postcount=623

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKh5ieIu5Y


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