# Which part of Europe you believe the Baltic States to be in?



## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Hello,

This discussion went far enough in the other thread for me to ask you this question.

Please, be honest and tell your opinion firmly, don't matter if they are congurous with the authors or not. 

I can imagine the results, but still the real attitude of yours is better. I'm sure I'll be able to stand your stereotypes if there will be any. 

Have a good time.


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

Eastern Europe, of course. No doubt about that.


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

Since they are former Sovjet countires I would say east.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Lithuania is in north east Europe. Fucking obvious really, if you look at a map.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

I would like to ask an administrator to open the poll (it should never close). I guess I've made a mistake while leaving the date for the poll to be closed with no data (or something).


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

That poll looks about as democratic as a Zimbawean polling station. ^_^


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## Federicoft (Sep 26, 2005)

Eastern Europe without any doubt.
Right or wrong, that's how they are perceived here.


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## Tony Sebo (Jun 28, 2004)

are they scandanavians or slavs?


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## NeilF (Apr 22, 2006)

Would saying, "Those that have a Baltic coast" be far too easy? 

I guess east of Russia and south of Scandinavia, with a Baltic coast. So, I guess central north and central east?


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## Canadian Chocho (May 18, 2006)

Dont the Lithuanians speak a Finno-Ugric language?


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

I've contacted the moderator. I hope he/she will help me  Sorry for the incovenience.


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## Kampflamm (Dec 28, 2003)

Northeastern Europe.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

The Baltic is part of Northern Europe by geography, by genes, by culture and history










Peopel thinking othervise should read up on European history - they were even part of the Hanseatic League and parts have strong ties to both Denmark, Sweden and Finland


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## kiretoce (May 26, 2004)

Northern Europe; add them to Scandinavia.


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## Tony Sebo (Jun 28, 2004)

The British Isles are full of Celts, but England is full of angles and saxons!


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Freki said:


> The Baltic is part of Northern Europe by geography, by genes, by culture and history


Yeah, and the Brits are Spaniards aren't they? Or was it that crazy Norwegian who told me that? :nuts:


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## Tymel (Jan 9, 2007)

The Baltic States? Whats that? lol

Never mind looked at it on Wiki, I would definitely say Eastern Europe.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

^^ Indeed.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

I would like to thank for moderator Tubeman very much 

Now all of you can take the poll, as mentioned earlier, express your opinion what ever it is. And thank you 

By the way, some of you may be surprised of putting the "Central Europe" to the poll. I've heard such an opinion (few of them) before, so I've added this option also.



Gareth said:


> Fucking obvious really, if you look at a map.


Don't put it so hard, I respect your position 



Canadian Chocho said:


> Dont the Lithuanians speak a Finno-Ugric language?


No, our language is indoeuropean -> baltic -> lithuanian.



Tony Sebo said:


> are they scandanavians or slavs?


We are Balts. It is separate group of indoeuropeans. Not Slavs. Just two countries in the world can be defined as Balts. Lithuania and Latvia. Almost all of the surroundings are slavs, so that's why I've pointed the historical criteria and said that we aren't Scands, but we aren't Slavs, who are defined as eastern europeans mostly. I'm not saying that's it, that's the answer. This is just an example.



Tymel said:


> The Baltic States? Whats that? lol


I agree that some people may not to know the Baltics. But the "lol" at the end doesn't make sense. This is your geographical lack, if you were trying to be rude, that is acting against yourself 

I'm sure we can discuss in a civilized way.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

By the way, Glet, is there a reason 'North East Europe' isn't an option on that poll, even though you knew I would've voted that way, and it's a very valid and common sense opinion?

As a consequence, I'll be voting Eastern Europe, as this is (and Western Europe) are more defined geopolitically than Northern Europe (or Southern Europe for that matter).


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

There's nothing wrong with Belgium and the Netherlands, which can be described as northern Europe too. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with the Spanish, but in no way are they northern Europe. Those effing Mancs down the road, grrr, they're in northern Europe too. I love Japan and Hong Kong, but they're no way in northern Europe. It's got nothing to do with who you like or who you don't like. It has bugger all to do with 'Nordica'. wherever that is. I could love that place, or detest it. It would make no difference.

South of Spain you find Africa. Correct. North of the UK you find Iceland, but you don't find Denmark, so half a mark. You could've also said Norway, but nevermind. Still, it means nothing, again.


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

DK is as North as the UK is. I think people that like Northern Europe, should be sent to live in Iceland for a year. lol


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

FREKI said:


> Anyway I'm at work and I don't have time for this because of some geographicly challenged refuses to accept reality... cheers!


And while we've moved from being condescending, as well as lecturing me what I am and what I'm not, to the insults, my I take this opportunity to tell you to go **** yourself.

You're also a hypocrite. Denmark above the UK? Geographically challenged, indeed! :|


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

PedroGabriel said:


> DK is as North as the UK is. I think people that like Northern Europe, should be sent to live in Iceland for a year. lol


Of course, the western part of Iceland is in North America.

I prefer Greenland, personally. And Canada.


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

PedroGabriel said:


> DK is as North as the UK is. * I think people that like Northern Europe, should be sent to live in Iceland for a year.* lol


Why?


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

ØlandDK said:


> Why?


I know people who lived there for 6 months!!!! Now imagine two times that! You will commit suicide.


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## LatvianGG (Aug 23, 2004)

PedroGabriel said:


> DK is as North as the UK is. I think people that like Northern Europe, should be sent to live in Iceland for a year. lol


Many people would, believe me. The quality of life in f.e. Reykjavik is higher than in most west european cities. Plus Iceland's climate is by all means nothing spectacular. Southern coast is all year in +C. If you consider cold temperatures to be frightening, then north or Sweden in Finland in the winter months are places you don't want to live in.


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

PedroGabriel said:


> I know people who lived there for 6 months!!!! Now imagine two times that! You will commit suicide.


Why do you think so?


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## AdnanPD (Jul 6, 2008)

LatvianGG said:


> Many people would, believe me. The quality of life in f.e. Reykjavik is higher than in most west european cities. Plus Iceland's climate is by all means nothing spectacular. Southern coast is all year in +C. If you consider cold temperatures to be frightening, then north or Sweden in Finland in the winter months are places you don't want to live in.


North of Sweden is nice in winter


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

it is a true prison island, the food is horrible, the climate the same, no one lives outside the capital, and you can only find some farmers, and the food is always the same - meet from (weird) animals they breed, cause nothing grows there (i know I know... there's greenhouses and shit and imports), plus the sun problem, it can be day at 3 am, or vice-versa.


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

I hope not all portuguese are "intelligent" as you are...


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

ØlandDK said:


> I hope not all portuguese are "intelligent" as you are...


duh.... what that has to do with "intelligence", pall?


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## Federicoft (Sep 26, 2005)

PedroGabriel said:


> it is a true prison island, the food is horrible, the climate the same, no one lives outside the capital, and you can only find some farmers, and the food is always the same - meet from (weird) animals they breed, cause nothing grows there (i know I know... there's greenhouses and shit and imports), plus the sun problem, it can be day at 3 am, or vice-versa.


:hilarious


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

PedroGabriel said:


> duh.... what that has to do with "intelligence", pall?


okay let's call it ignorant then.


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)




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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

ØlandDK said:


> okay let's call it ignorant then.


why ignorant. duh. Did you lived there?


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

No, did you?


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## LatvianGG (Aug 23, 2004)

Gareth said:


> And while we've moved from being condescending, as well as lecturing me what I am and what I'm not, to the insults, my I take this opportunity to tell you to go **** yourself.


Just wondering why do you care so deeply about Baltics anyway. Are you a member of russian movement "Nashi?"


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## AdnanPD (Jul 6, 2008)

PedroGabriel said:


> it is a true prison island, the food is horrible, the climate the same, no one lives outside the capital, and you can only find some farmers, and the food is always the same - meet from (weird) animals they breed, cause nothing grows there (i know I know... there's greenhouses and shit and imports), plus the sun problem, it can be day at 3 am, or vice-versa.



Yes it something like the "LOST" island :lol::lol:


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

ØlandDK said:


> No, did you?


no, but know someone who did. And I believe it. it is pretty logic, BTW. But opinions are opinions, for you Iceland could be heaven.









back on topic...


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## ØlandDK (May 29, 2005)

hno:


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## AdnanPD (Jul 6, 2008)

PedroGabriel said:


> no, but know someone who did. And I believe it. it is pretty logic, BTW. But opinions are opinions, for you Iceland could be heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of my friends is from Island and he didnt killed him self in 19 yrs he lived there


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## PedroGabriel (Feb 5, 2007)

AdnanPrijedor said:


> Yes it something like the "LOST" island :lol::lol:


NOOOO!!!!! I would love to be in the lost Island.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

LatvianGG said:


> Just wondering why do you care so deeply about Baltics anyway. Are you a member of russian movement "Nashi?"


I don't care particularly about the 'Baltics' either way. Been looking at the Estonian language recently though, if that helps.


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## Canadian Chocho (May 18, 2006)

wtf is portugl?

that's my contribution to this thread...


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

*Northeastern Europe*

Northeastern Europe.

It doesn't have to be either Eastern or Northern Europe.

For example, Estonia for me is both Eastern (through its ties with Russia) and Northern Europe (through its ties with Finland).


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Correct answer but through the wrong conclusion. Estonia is in the north east corner of Europe, so it's in north east Europe. The UK has close ties with the UK & Canada, but this doesn't make Britain a part of North America.

But, at the end of the day, as Estonia is near both Finland & Russia, it will more likely than not have links with both. Regional culture is often a consequence of geography. The geography isn't defined by the culture.


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## Tymel (Jan 9, 2007)

Giedrius_LT said:


> I agree that some people may not to know the Baltics. But the "lol" at the end doesn't make sense. This is your geographical lack, if you were trying to be rude, that is acting against yourself
> 
> I'm sure we can discuss in a civilized way.



Oh no. I just put "lol" because I didnt know where the Baltic States where, thats all laughing at my own stupidity. I wasnt meaning that they are insignificant, each country is significant in its own way.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

^^ When Eurovision comes around, they're a force to be reckoned with. :yes:


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

the question is very simple ... how many europes are you considering in your measurement ??? 

There are lots of ways to call something in this or that europe .. .here are some:

North/South > south = med. countries ... so baltic is north

East/West > west = old western europe ... east = old varsovia pact europe

4 sided europe > north is the baltic and surrounding area ... east is balcans 
8 sided europe > same as above ... so baltic staes are NE europe

Regional segregation > Baltic states are "Baltic states" ??? :lol:

World Scale > Baltic states are europeans ... finito


^^ You people seem to be new to this "misplacing" game ... Portugal is always being called a "mediterranic" country ... it has not even 1mm of mediterranic coast ... its fully atlantic ... but see if we care or give a damn about it.

Anyway .. .caling that region "Baltic" is also misleading ... there are other that are also baltic and don't seem to be included in your league ... finland ??? 


But nothing beats "Vladivostok" and "Ostrov Yttygran" being in Eastern Europe to the UN. :lol:


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Canadian Chocho said:


> wtf is portugl?
> 
> that's my contribution to this thread...


wtf it Toro Tonto ??? 




^^ (Toro tonto = silly bull)


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Gareth said:


> my I take this opportunity to tell you to go **** yourself


Yes of course you "my".. but don't you think you mean "may".. :cheers:



Gareth said:


> You're also a hypocrite.


Thanks, I love you too darling! :hug:



Gareth said:


> Denmark above the UK? Geographically challenged, indeed! :|


You sure in heck come off like it...

Yes, Denmark above the UK! Jeez!











Gareth said:


> I prefer Greenland, personally.


Fancy our island do you... well I'm not exactly surprised...


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## Canadian Chocho (May 18, 2006)

sotavento said:


> wtf it Toro Tonto ???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You clearly don't have a sense of humour.


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## Maipo Valley (Feb 3, 2008)

Northern europe
as finland. i read that in the past finland was considered a baltic nation same as the other three.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Here's a couple of pics, maybe some of the people claiming the Baltics isn't Northern Europe would be so kind as to inform me of what of these pictures are Nordic and what are Baltic ( I'm looking at you oh wise Gareth )

A









B









C









D









E









F









G









H









I









J









K









Please answer like this: X=Baltic or X=Nordic..


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## LMCA1990 (Jun 18, 2005)

Northeaster Europe :dunno: lol


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## Rя (May 23, 2008)

farts of russia and a tumor in the testicles of scandinavia... mmm they are northern/eastern europeans i guess.


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## Icantthinkofaname (Apr 28, 2008)

Lithuanians have more common with Poles than to fellow Balts - Latvians not even talking about Scandinavians. When I visit Lithuania I feel like I am in Poland and vice-versa. Estonians might be in Northern Europe (culturally), Latvians are something in the middle with strong influences both from Germanic and Slavic people.


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## mieze (Jul 15, 2008)

The baltic states are not overly connected to scandinavia. Where does this idea come from? In fact, the impact of the former soviet union is still very great. And before that time, it was the large german minority and the economical, cultural and historical links to germany that dominated those nations (hanseatic trade union, order of the teutonic knights, german east expansion and settlements etc...)


@ Freki: I could show you images form Poland, some parts of Russia and northern Germany that look identical, what does this prove? Only that theres a connection between all the nations around the baltic see.

The only tight relationship between scands and balts is between Finland and Estonia. In fact, they're very closely related (languages), whereas even the finnish dont have much in common with the germanic scands.


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## Icantthinkofaname (Apr 28, 2008)

From religion point of view Baltics are northern/central Europe.


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## Köbtke (Jun 29, 2005)

FREKI said:


> Y
> Yes, Denmark above the UK! Jeez!


Err mate, sorry, but are you kidding here? :S Denmark is clearly not above the UK on this map. Sure it's above a small portion of it but more or less on par with the middle of it...


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## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

Seeing they are in the East of Europe and former Sovjet States I classify them as Eastern Europe.


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## Köbtke (Jun 29, 2005)

anyway i'd say eastern europe too.

IF we must be more specific or the eastern europe carries too many bad connotations then north eastern europe


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## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

Köbtke said:


> Err mate, sorry, but are you kidding here? :S Denmark is clearly not above the UK on this map. Sure it's above a small portion of it but more or less on par with the middle of it...


He is obviously referring to the Faroe Islands and Greenland which are so unmistakeably Danish that hardly anyone outside of Denmark knows or cares that they are actually self-governing provinces of Denmark.


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## Köbtke (Jun 29, 2005)

Quintana said:


> He is obviously referring to the Faroe Islands and Greenland which are so unmistakeably Danish that hardly anyone outside of Denmark knows or cares that they are actually self-governing provinces of Denmark.


oh, good point. at least we found out that denmark is clearly in north america then.

... :hammer:


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## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

And I live in the Caribbean :cheers:


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## señor cara de papa (Aug 10, 2007)

northern yurop


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## señor cara de papa (Aug 10, 2007)

Quintana said:


> And I live in the Caribbean :cheers:


i think Suriname isn´t in the caribean, unless you´re refering to another place


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Quintana said:


> And I live in the Caribbean :cheers:


We're next door then! I live in a small patch of Amazonian jungle next to Brazil.


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## theespecialone (Jun 3, 2008)

the eastern part


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## Jonesy55 (Jul 30, 2004)

They are in the Eastern Baltic Sea region.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Köbtke said:


> Err mate, sorry, but are you kidding here? :S Denmark is clearly not above the UK on this map. Sure it's above a small portion of it but more or less on par with the middle of it...


Maybe he said that about Greenland, which is part of Denmark 

*EDIT:* already pointed out by Quintana.

And take that:


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## Stifler (Apr 11, 2006)

Eastern Europe.


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## The Knowledgeable (Nov 8, 2007)

Eastern Europe. The only Baltic country that can call itself northern European IMO is Estonia, due to its close cultural, linguistic, geographic and historic relationship to Finland and Sweden. Lithuania is clearly an eastern European country. People keep pointing at history to enforce their claims the Lithuania is northern when it fact it was united with Poland throughout most of its history. This is nothing more than an attempt by Lithuanians to put their country under the same label as the rich and developed Scandinavian countries.


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## Köbtke (Jun 29, 2005)

Giedrius_LT said:


> Maybe he said that about Greenland, which is part of Denmark
> 
> *EDIT:* already pointed out by Quintana.
> 
> And take that:


according to that image (and who can question colbert) denmark is above norway :O


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## serfin (May 21, 2007)

eastern europe.


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## TohrAlkimista (Dec 18, 2006)

I always associated these countries to EE.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

The Knowledgeable said:


> Eastern Europe. The only Baltic country that can call itself northern European IMO is Estonia, due to its close cultural, linguistic, geographic and historic relationship to Finland and Sweden. Lithuania is clearly an eastern European country. People keep pointing at history to enforce their claims the Lithuania is northern when it fact it was united with Poland throughout most of its history. This is nothing more than an attempt by Lithuanians to put their country under the same label as the rich and developed Scandinavian countries.


What do you think of Israel beeing European or Asian? 

No arguing as said before, keep it on people, throw it out 

And for the same economical and HD label as Scandinavia. Nope, still not yet. Non of the Baltic States are able to express that like this, even if Estonia is ahead of Lithuania (I wish all the best and nothnig else for Estonia; by the way Estonia aren't ahead of Lithuania by HDI). But all of the Baltic States are claiming so fast that it won't take much time, it shouldn't suprise that we are called the Baltic Tigers


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## Quintana (Dec 27, 2005)

señor cara de papa said:


> i think Suriname isn´t in the caribean, unless you´re refering to another place


Suriname is an independent country since November 25, 1975. The Netherlands Antilles and Aruba are however part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.


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## Gatis (Sep 22, 2003)

Freki - thanks for pictures. I couldn't distinguish which are Baltic pictures, which - Scandinavian 

Btw. I don't care about parts of invented part of world - Europe. But somehow I have an impression - as Baltics will develop and be among the most developed societies of the world - they will be considered to be a part of Northern Europe. That's a kind of brand name.


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## Kaiser (Oct 16, 2005)

The Knowledgeable said:


> Eastern Europe. The only Baltic country that can call itself northern European IMO is Estonia, due to its close cultural, linguistic, geographic and historic relationship to Finland and Sweden. Lithuania is clearly an eastern European country. People keep pointing at history to enforce their claims the Lithuania is northern when it fact it was united with Poland throughout most of its history. This is nothing more than an attempt by Lithuanians to put their country under the same label as the rich and developed Scandinavian countries.


^^ You've got a point here. Estonia could be considered Northern European because of their ties with Finland. In fact Finland is more linguistically tied to Estonia than Sweden or Norway. Finnish and Estonian are under the _*Finno-Ugric*_ language family while Swedish, Norwegian and even English are under the _*Germanic*_ family. 
As for Lithuania, they are closely linked with Poland. Any one remembers the *Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth* which existed from 1569 – 1795? 
So we can consider Lithuania, and Latvia because of their apparent similarities, as part of Eastern Europe.

But still, I voted for them to be considered part of Northern Europe. :colgate:


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## l'eau (Jul 7, 2008)

northeastern europe.


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## The Knowledgeable (Nov 8, 2007)

Joshua888 said:


> ^^ You've got a point here. Estonia could be considered Northern European because of their ties with Finland. In fact Finland is more linguistically tied to Estonia than Sweden or Norway. Finnish and Estonian are under the _*Finno-Ugric*_ language family while Swedish, Norwegian and even English are under the _*Germanic*_ family.


No, I meant *linguistically* to Finland and *historically* to Sweden. Sounded a bit ambiguous, sorry.


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## The Knowledgeable (Nov 8, 2007)

Giedrius_LT said:


> What do you think of Israel beeing European or Asian?


Asian. We're a European country in almost every aspect except geography, and geographically we're way off. So we're Asian, and nothing can change that.



> And for the same economical and HD label as Scandinavia. Nope, still not yet. Non of the Baltic States are able to express that like this, even if Estonia is ahead of Lithuania (I wish all the best and nothnig else for Estonia; by the way Estonia aren't ahead of Lithuania by HDI). But all of the Baltic States are claiming so fast that it won't take much time, it shouldn't suprise that we are called the Baltic Tigers


I didn't say Lithuania is eastern European because of HDI, I'm saying this because of the hard facts. Lithuania is linguistically, culturally, politically, geographically and historically an eastern European country period.

And you didn't understand the "label" part. Lithuania is working hard on developing itself (good luck with that ) thanks to the collapse of USSR and its accession into EU, and a result of this is the attempt to associate itself with the countries it aspires to be: the Scandinavian countries, or in other words, northern Europe. 

Latvia and Estonia are more in the middle of the spectrum. They have been both heavily influenced by Sweden and in recent years by Finland and geographically they're on the border between northern and eastern Europe. This is why they are northeastern European countries. With a bit push forward Estonia can become a truly northern European country as well, I am sure.

P.S. Lithuania is notoriously known in Israel to be one of the most antisemitic countries in the world, along with Poland. Better change that.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

The Knowledgeable said:


> I didn't say Lithuania is eastern European because of HDI <...>
> And you didn't understand the "label" part.


I've thought that the "Scandinavian label" was associated with the HDI. Sorry if I've got it wrong


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## Maipo Valley (Feb 3, 2008)

The Knowledgeable said:


> Asian. We're a European country in almost every aspect except geography, and geographically we're way off. So we're Asian, and nothing can change that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lithuanians arent slaves. and is a very peacefull place maybe another countries cant say that.


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## Mekky II (Oct 29, 2003)

Estonia = north europe
Latvia+Lithuania = central europe (vilnius geographical center)

north-east/east/south-east europe = Russia


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## VelesHomais (Sep 1, 2004)

I know it's northern Europe but deep down I consider them to be eastern European.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

^based on what if I may ask...


Seems the all knowing Gareth still haven't dared answer about what pics are what, or showed me any cityscapes linking the UK to the northern Europe as he claims it's part off ( :lol: ) - so I guess he has come to his senses perhaps.. :dunno:



Gatis said:


> Freki - thanks for pictures. I couldn't distinguish which are Baltic pictures, which - Scandinavian


We do look alike - as it seems very few people know hence got the wrong impression based on outdated coldwar crap..



Gatis said:


> I have an impression - as Baltics will develop and be among the most developed societies of the world - they will be considered to be a part of Northern Europe. That's a kind of brand name.


I think you are very right!

It's a shame it takes money to change some people's mind, but that is apperently how the world works..

As people have pointed out several times, if the Soveit would have sucessfully invaded Finland there are a great chance it would have been considered Eastern Europe today.. how economy can outrule position on a geographic map is beyond me, but mehh...

What I don't get is why people are so affraid to be affiliated with former Soveit states..? I love the Baltics - I had a blast visiting and I can't wait to go again, it's some beautiful countries and I'm proud to share northern Europe with them and serve along side them!


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

FREKI said:


> how economy can outrule position on a geographic map is beyond me, but mhhh...


So Murmansk is in Northern Europe?

Anyway, I only consider Estonia northern European. Latvia reminds me of Russia, don't really know why (probably b/c the capital Riga has more Russians than Latvians), so eastern Europe, and Lithuania reminds me of Poland, and the geographical center of Europe is there, so central Europe. Kaliningrad is in Western Europe. :cheers:


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

FREKI said:


> Anyway seems the all knowing Gareth still haven't dared answer about what pics are what, or showed me any cityscapes linking the UK to the northern Europe as he claims it's part off ( :lol: ) - so I guess he has come to his senses perhaps.. :dunno:
> 
> We do look alike - as it seems very few people know hence got the wrong impression based on outdated coldwar crap..
> 
> ...




You talk about me too much. And send me weird PMs. I'm scared.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Verso said:


> Lithuania reminds me of Poland, and the geographical center of Europe is there, so central Europe.


I have poped you some explanations about how does that "Center of Europe" work already  But if you really think so, it's okay kay:

And a lil bit more about that center. I remember some kind of definition of the centre of Europe. It was considered to be banana (yup, banana) starting at London and going through Brussels, Amsterdam, Paris, Western Germany, to Switzerland and North of Italy. 

This center includes almost all (or maybe all of them) of the main EU geopolitical centers, like Strasbourg, Brussels, Luxemburg. also financial centres like London or Frankfurt. So I think this definition is much more reliable than just a mathematical calculation of some anomalous geographical points 

I still think that you don't need to change your opinion, I just told mine with some new arguments and that's it


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Northeastern Europe


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Giedrius_LT said:


> I have poped you some explanations about how does that "Center of Europe" work already


Ok, the center of Europe is Belarus. Btw, click this website, and then click on the center of Europe in Lithuania, and you'll see how Europe finds itself in the middle. Click on Germany, and Europe goes away.

I also don't associate Lithuania too much with the Baltic. It doesn't have much of the Baltic Sea (Sweden and Finland should be called Baltic states, really), and Vilnius and Kaunas don't lie by it. Tallinn and Riga do, for example.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Verso said:


> I also don't associate Lithuania too much with the Baltic. It doesn't have much of the Baltic Sea (Sweden and Finland should be called Baltic states, really), and Vilnius and Kaunas don't lie by it. Tallinn and Riga do, for example.


So is Sweden Nordic or Baltic? Will we give them all the names? There are 9 countries near the Baltic sea. Is Germany Baltic State? No, Germany isn't Baltic State, but it is Baltic country also.

The Baltic *States* is the definition used, not the "Baltic countries". And that is the main point, kilometres of the Baltic shore does not act the most important role here, atleast if you have that shore at all. And Latvia and Lithuania is almost one and the same. Also Estonia is included here because of our interaction deep enough, same history in very lot of points, let's say same scale of importance.

But you can have your interpretations, i see a very large range of definitions made by them and as I've said in the 1st post, I'll stand them all. So give it to me more.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Lithuanian and Latvian languages are quite similar to Slavic languages, I think.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Verso said:


> Lithuanian and Latvian languages are quite similar to Slavic languages, I think.


Both of our languages are non slavic  Non slavic no matter how much your stereotypes says different  Ah, simple stuff can really knock you down sometimes...

Our languages are Baltic. Balts are different from slavs  We neither share one religion, nor one language group with slavs.

Here is a map of slavic speaking countries:









***

Damn, Nordic and Baltic, it rhymes so good  You can call us NordBalt while cuting.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Snobbery. Simple as.


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## señor cara de papa (Aug 10, 2007)

Quintana said:


> Suriname is an independent country since November 25, 1975. The Netherlands Antilles and Aruba are however part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.


aahhh ok


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Gareth said:


> You talk about me too much. And send me weird PMs. I'm scared.


Don't be scared mate, just deleted the lying thread as I have asked you about multiple times..


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

FREKI said:


> Finally we agree..
> 
> Took 7 pages but you finally came to your senses, thanks! :cheers:


I never said the 'Baltics' weren't in northern Europe. Maybe you should read what people actually say.


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

*Bahasa Lituania*



Giedrius_LT said:


> Nobody wants to tell this, just there was a statement that "Baltic and Slavic are similar for me", which is misleading.
> 
> They are not similar even if they have some similarities while being in the same family of languages. Baltic is a separate branch on the languages "tree". Baltic is unique.


You might want to reread what I wrote.
I'm aware that Baltic is a separate branch in the language tree, but it is also true that Lithuanian is very close to Slavic languages.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

xolang said:


> You might want to reread what I wrote.
> I'm aware that Baltic is a separate branch in the language tree, but it is also true that Lithuanian is very close to Slavic languages.


Close but unique in the region. That is the truest true of them all.



> Bahasa Lituania


Lituania is known for everyone (who has a little logics and know english a bit). Bahasa? Bahamas Lituania?


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## chukchi (Jan 6, 2005)

@xolang, how is it close????

BTW, even in SSC Scandinavians and Baltic share the same subforum


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

Giedrius_LT said:


> Lituania is known for everyone (who has a little logics and know english a bit). Bahasa? Bahamas Lituania?


Bahasa Lituania = Lithuanian (language)



chukchi said:


> ^^ how is it close????
> 
> BTW, even in SSC Scandinavians and Baltic share the same subforum


You can read books in linguistics, history, etc, pertaining to Lithuanian.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2008)

FREKI said:


> The Baltic is part of Northern Europe by geography, by genes, by culture and history
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I don't want to discuss but... Isn't Slavic and Baltic languages( Lithuanian and Latvian, obviously Estonian belongs to Finno-uralic branch, as Finnish) related in a common language before Indo-European? I think I've red it somewhere...


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## Fraga (Apr 2, 2005)

*http://www.kervarker.org/snd/hiq/diviz01_a.mp3*


*http://www.kervarker.org/snd/hiq/diviz02_a.mp3*





Obviously is not french, but for non french speakers (like me) sounds like the Victor Hugo's mother tongue. It's Brezhoneg, breton (one of the last six celtic languages). In my opinion, the similarities between french & breton show some things in common with the similarities between the slavic and baltic branch of the indoeuropean family tree


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## Maipo Valley (Feb 3, 2008)

frozen said:


> Sorry, I don't want to discuss but... Isn't Slavic and Baltic languages( Lithuanian and Latvian, obviously Estonian belongs to Finno-uralic branch, as Finnish) related in a common language before Indo-European? I think I've red it somewhere...


No, el lituano tiene relación con el sánscrito, no con lenguas eslavas-


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## Icantthinkofaname (Apr 28, 2008)

frozen said:


> Isn't Slavic and Baltic languages related in a common language before Indo-European? I think I've red it somewhere...


As xolang already appointed that in previos page some linguists indeed put baltic and slavic languages into one balto-slavic language tree. But there is still ongoing debate about this question. 

Objections to Balto-Slavic Unity

1. PIE *ā and *ō remain in Baltic but they merged in Slavic.
2. PIE *sr remains in Baltic but changes to "str" in Slavic, though several identical changes in Baltic tend to confuse the issue.
3. Baltic uses the suffix -mo in ordinal numbers where Slavic uses -wo.
4. Baltic has indications of the 1st person singular present verb suffix -mai whereas Slavic doesn't, though this point is debated.
5. Baltic makes frequent use of the infix -sto- whereas Slavic doesn't.
6. Proto-Baltic didn't distinguish the 3rd person singular and plural verb forms whereas Proto-Slavic did.
7. The Baltic adjectival suffix -inga isn't used in Slavic.
8. The Baltic diminutive -l- isn't used in Slavic.
9. The Slavic agentive suffix -telь isn't used in Baltic.
10. Proto-Slavic uses -es in words denoting body parts but Baltic doesn't.
11. Proto-Slavic uses the participle suffix -lo but Baltic doesn't.
12. Proto-Slavic incorporates the so-called "Law of Open Syllables" but Baltic doesn't.
13. The sigmatic aorist exists in Slavic but not in Baltic.
14. Proto-Slavic forms abstract numerals with -tь whereas Baltic doesn't.


In practice for russians it's harder to learn latvian (baltic) than english(germanic) language. At least that is what most of them are telling me. (Maybe that is just an excuse for not learning latvian :lol


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## Kampflamm (Dec 28, 2003)

Denmark is just an extension of Germany.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Icantthinkofaname said:


> As xolang already appointed that in previos page some linguists indeed put baltic and slavic languages into one balto-slavic language tree. But there is still ongoing debate about this question.


I even don't argue with that. All it is said that Baltic is unique, world is interactive, we simply can put a wall between Baltic countries and Slavic countries, with time our languages interact also. But it is said clearly - our language is unique, it is different (if it is even with some similarities, it is different) from the rest part of Europe, which you call Eastern Europe. 

And ground neighbours where not the only ones who interacted:


> Estonia has applied for membership in the Nordic Council, referring to its cultural heritage and close linguistic links to Finland, although normally Estonia is regarded as one of the Baltic countries. All Baltic states have shared historical events with the Nordic countries, including Scandinavia, during the centuries.


That doesn't make us Scandinavian alike. And we don't need to be alike them, we can be alike Baltics, it suits me perfectly. But that proves that we should be judged by our geographical position - Northern Europe and some people should leave their stereotypes in their pocket.

Same goes for religion. Baltic countries has different religion part than does their Eastern European neighbours. 

We are different from Eastern European, we are unique. It is said, that the Baltics was "found" very late, they lived some isolated life:


> The Baltic peoples resisted Christianization longer than any other Europeans, which delayed the introduction of writing and isolated their languages from outside influence.


And that's why we are not the same. 

So while we are different the stereotypes should go and geography should come. 

At the present we are politically associated with Nordic countries, I've mentioned Nordic Council of Ministers and Baltic Assembly collaboration and common politics. Baltic + Nordic is the way we have went:


> Before the 19th century, the term 'Nordic' or 'Northern' was commonly used to mean Northern Europe in a sense that included the Nordic countries, European Russia, the Baltic countries (at that time Livonia and Courland) and Greenland.


And we will go this way further.

The point why some people now do have stereotypes is WW and the detachment of Europe. But this part of history is not our free choice, this was made by agression. The WW is over, get over it and improve your thinking  Let's take the situation as it is, so simple.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

You're still in eastern Europe. You could be hindus and speak a Japonic language, it wouldn't change where you are geographically.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Gareth said:


> They're in northern Europe <...>


^^ I totally agree


----------



## j0nas (Oct 18, 2007)

paini said:


> No, el lituano tiene relación con el sánscrito, no con lenguas eslavas-


false
lithuanian is related to both the slavic languages as well as sanskrit
so is spanish, by the way


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Giedrius_LT said:


> ^^ I totally agree


Yeah, and eastern Europe too.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Giedrius_LT said:


> Murmansk is in region called Europe septentrionale.


Northern Europe in English.



Giedrius_LT said:


> They are not similar even if they have some similarities while being in the same family of languages. Baltic is a separate branch on the languages "tree". Baltic is unique.


Exactly, Baltic is unique and has nothing to do with Northern European languages, not even with Estonian.


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## Icantthinkofaname (Apr 28, 2008)

Seriously, this discussion is meaningless. As a Latvian I don't associate myself nor with eastern nor with western nor with central Europe. First of all I am Latvian, then "balt" and simply European.


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## Giedrius_LT (Nov 8, 2006)

Verso said:


> Northern Europe in English.


That map shows the area of northern Europe. But the concrete countries to represent that is dark coloured 

You simply can't say that Russia is there or there, because Russia is too huge to define as concrete part of local area.

I would leave Russia as Russia - that's the region of it's own, it surely deserves one 



> Exactly, Baltic is unique and has nothing to do with Northern European languages, not even with Estonian.


And nobody says they do. It is said that Baltics are different from Slavs, who compose that Eastern Europe and are spread over it.

And because of this it is said to judge the definition by geography, not by stereotypes. And geography, no matter how much interpretations you would give, says clearly - Baltic States are in Northern Europe. 

Ofcourse it would be better to start discussion not at 2a.m. lol, where have you been all day


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Giedrius_LT said:


> You simply can't say that Russia is there or there, because Russia is too huge to define as concrete part of local area.


No, but you can say that the Kola Peninsula is in northern Europe, and eastern Europe. Pretty much the same as Lithuania really.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Kampflamm said:


> Denmark is just an extension of Germany.


It's the other way around mate - Germany is just another part of the Jutland penisula and we had to cut you off after some of you started dating the Romans and sucking up to the vatican... hno:

Heck even the Jutes we forced downthere didn't want to be there 



Gareth said:


> Yeah, and eastern Europe too.


Shush troll!


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## Intoxication (Jul 24, 2005)

Eastern Europe.


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

*I'm a northern european!!*

*I'm a northern european!!*:banana:
*Thank God I am northern european!!* :banana:

:lol:


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm a white northern European too.

Heil! 0/


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## Tony Sebo (Jun 28, 2004)

Because it just doesn't matter. The part of Europe where the Baltic states lie are where ever the citizens of those states reckon it is


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Gareth said:


> I'm a white northern European too.
> 
> Heil! 0/


Why the **** do you mix northern Europe with Nazism? :sly:


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

EU is located in Far-Western Eurasia. 

There is only one EU--- not a division of states.

One America, and one EU.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

♣628.8m;24226328 said:


> There is only one EU--- not a division of states.
> 
> One America, and one EU.


:lol:


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## BrickellResidence (Feb 4, 2008)

^^hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaha


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## Manolo_B2 (Oct 26, 2007)

i would say northern europe... 

tallin, riga and vilnius look more like helsinki than moscow... :lol:


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

FREKI said:


> Why the **** do you mix northern Europe with Nazism? :sly:


I didn't.


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## Manolo_B2 (Oct 26, 2007)

Gareth said:


> I didn't.


yes, you did... :blahblah:


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

*Lithuania*



FREKI said:


> The Baltic is part of Northern Europe by geography, by genes, by culture and history
> 
> Peopel thinking othervise should read up on European history - they were even part of the Hanseatic League and parts have strong ties to both Denmark, Sweden and Finland


Culturally and historically Lithuania is much more part of Central than Northern Europe, whereas Latvia and Estonia have had strong ties with Northern Europe culturally and historically.


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## ♣628.finst (Jul 29, 2005)

The Baltic States were once strongly influenced by Russian culture. Nowadays its exposure to its Western neighbours have almost fully integrated themselves into European community, meanwhile reviving their own traditions.


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## ruben.briosa (Dec 30, 2007)

Northern Europe!


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

*Terlalu berlainan*

Eastern - Northern - Central.

It differs from country to country.

Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia are too different each to be able to say that they are _all_ eastern or northern or central European.


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

*Eiropaa*

According to the CIA world factbook, the Baltic states are part of Eastern Europe.
But we know it's not that simple, even between LT, LV, and EE there are significant differences.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Manolo_B2 said:


> yes, you did... :blahblah:


Er, no I didn't.

xolang's spot on, though.


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## Woodstock88 (Mar 19, 2008)

If baltic is so east then why we speak not in russian we have diffrent languages and they have no similarity to russian or slav .


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

What's Russia got to do with anything?


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## StrangeBru (Aug 13, 2008)

I'd say Northern Europe.


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## FREKI (Sep 27, 2005)

Gareth said:


> xolang's spot on


So we agree that the UK is in western Europe as his CIA Factbook picture shows? 

Finally!


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Ageeing with CIA Factbook (since when the **** was that ever the authority on anything?) was not xolang's point. Of course the UK's in western Europe, as well as northern Europe. You're just going to have to deal with whatever weird quasi-racist issues you have with the UK, as was discustingly revealed in our last discussion on this topic, which is essentially about certain former-USSR countries with inferiority complexes. Funny, as you have a superiority complex, even though Denmark's not a million miles away from these places.


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## xolang (Oct 29, 2007)

*You're right*



Gareth said:


> Ageeing with CIA Factbook (since when the **** was that ever the authority on anything?) was not xolang's point.


Here, here!


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## Junkie (Oct 5, 2007)

Giedrius_LT said:


> Hello,
> 
> This discussion went far enough in the other thread for me to ask you this question.
> 
> ...


Well your past is soviet so you were Eastern block republics. Today You are much more closer to Nordic states than to Russia. And not just your geographical place, but your people are more related to Nordic people than to Slavs that live around You.


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## cachen (Feb 25, 2008)

latvians and lithuanians share genetic markers more in common with slavs actually. it is also true that latvian and lithuanian languages are closer to slavic languages than they are to germanic ones. but that doesnt matter, though i've seen a lot of people acting a little too eager to distance themselves from slavs. thats not the point.

the baltics are in northern europe. they are also in eastern europe. they are in northeastern europe. 

take a map of europe, divide into halves horizontally: northern, southern. now divide it into halves vertically: western, eastern. the baltics will be both northern and eastern. britain is northern and western. 

its so damn simple, i dont know why some of you have such a hard time with the concept.

based on physical geography, the baltics are in northern and eastern europe. culture has nothing to do with it.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

^^ Superb post. I don't know enough about the genetic statement to comment, but the rest is 100% correct.


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## Junkie (Oct 5, 2007)

Well Estonians are genetic much more closer to Nordics than to Slavs. Anyway they are in northeastern europe thats for sure.


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## Todd Carlton (Feb 19, 2008)

*Cachen almost got it*

The post by Cachen is almost dead-on, but the statement that culture does not matter is where he missed. Culture, despite nationality is the point. Of-course they will have cultural relations to the varied ethnicities of their origins, but it is the geography that unites them. Their culture created out of a shared relationship and region - as exemplified by the Hanseatic Leauge. This means they have much in common with Northern Europe. But, this does not mean they don't have significant commonality with Russia to the east, and eastern Europe to the south....this is normal. Few places have isolated identities..Iceland? As an American (North) with varied ethnic and cultural backgrounds, this sounds like a question we ask ourselves all the time...who am I. I find if you study history enough you discover no one or no where is pure and completely distinct....well, maybe Iceland.


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## Junkie (Oct 5, 2007)

Some time ago I was reading that genetically most isolated people (from the other nations) in Europe are Finns.


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## Slavic Warrior (Aug 27, 2008)

That is because Finland has large numbers of Sami people who are the most genetically unique people of Europe. Pure Finns are not much different than the rest of Europeans.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Slavic Warrior said:


> Pure Finns are not much different than the rest of Europeans.


I'm sure the Sami would take exception to who you consider pure Finns.


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## plus ratio quam vis (Sep 7, 2007)

*hello*

if we divide map of european continent into 9 exactly the same parts this is what we'll get :

Central Europe: Poland, 80% of Germany, Denmark, Czech Rep., Slovakia, 20 % of Austria, 50% of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, 30 % of Sweden, 5% of Norway, Kaliningrad Oblast + west borders of Russia

North-West Europe: Rep. of Iceland, northern part of Scotland ( 5% of UK)

Northern Europe: 95% of Norway, 70% of Sweden, 10% of european part of Russia

North-East Europe: 40% of european part of Russia

Western Europe: 95% of the UK, Ireland, 50% of France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, 20% of Germany

Eastern Europe: 50% of Ukraine, 35% of european part of Russia, west part of Kazakhstan

South-West Europe: Portugal, Spain, Andorra, 50% of France, Switzerland, Monako, Liechtenstein, 20% of Italy

Southern Europe: 80% of Italy, San Marino, 80% of Austria, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Bulgary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia, Greece, european part of Turkey, Malta

South East Europe: 5% of european part of Russia 

:cheers:


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## Escalabitano (Jun 12, 2009)

*Northern Europe:*
Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, * Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania*.

*Western Europe:*
Ireland, UK, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Germany, Switezerland, Austria.

*Southern Europe:*
Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, European Turkey.

*Eastern Europe:*
Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Former Yoguslavia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Eur. Russia


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## Gatis (Sep 22, 2003)

> latvians and lithuanians share genetic markers more in common with slavs actually. it is also true that latvian and lithuanian languages are closer to slavic languages than they are to germanic ones. but that doesnt matter, though i've seen a lot of people acting a little too eager to distance themselves from slavs.


Technically this is true.

But - there are some reasons for us wanting to differentiate from Slavs (basically Russians) - we look and compare how general people live to the west and to the east from us. No wonder that we want very much to be closer to west and to escape from the embraces of east as quickly as possible... Sometimes we love to fool ourselves and to declare that... yess... now we are away.

Speak about complexes if you want. But that's how it is.


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## UrbanLife (Nov 15, 2007)

Eastern europe. No doubt..


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

Northeastern Europe. Obviously.


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

Even tho I no the facts I'm gonna be daring as say...

"Eastern Europe of course where else would they be!"


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## ainttelling (Jun 3, 2009)

Northern Europe is Scandinavian Peninsula and Iceland only.


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## Geborgenheit (Sep 9, 2005)

I wish Baltic States were in Southern Europe. :laugh: :tongue3:


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## Escalabitano (Jun 12, 2009)

^:nono: :lol:


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## gonzo (Jul 30, 2006)

I always confuse the Baltics witht the Balkans. :lol: Europe has alot of Bals.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

North-east, but since the whole point of this thread is just for a few baltic forumers to tell people that they are as western European as Ireland and have absolutely nothing in common with the east of Europe especially....... god forbid.... (makes a cross sign)... Russia, I voted for eastern Europe to piss off our friends


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## dutchmaster (May 23, 2007)

Northern Europe..


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## Eduardo L. Ramirez (Jul 24, 2008)

Eastern Europe if you go by the phenotypical look of the inhabitants (anthropologically mostly "East Baltid", esp. in the east). Lingualically it's also EE (Baltic languages don't occur in other parts of Northern Europe and Estonian is a Finno-Ugrian language). Geographically the Baltic States are located in North-eastern Europe but since we don't count Germany or Poland as Northern Europe we also shouldn't include the Baltics (because they are just northern located countries of the european continent.


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## Marsupilami (May 8, 2005)

LatinAmerica?


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## Berlinerin (Jun 9, 2009)

Eastern Europe.


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## Big Cat (Dec 1, 2008)

North Europe


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## Czas na Żywiec (Jan 17, 2005)

Kaliningrad should be considered Northern Europe too. It sits as far north as a signifigant part of Lithuania. Lithuania even has some areas located more southern than the southernmost part of Kaliningrad.


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

Federicoft said:


> Eastern Europe without any doubt.
> Right or wrong, that's how they are perceived here.


People of a certain nation are perceived as fat, loud, stupid and ugly but in reality they aren't. I can give you many more such examples.

Misconceptions are one thing, reality quite another.

I voted Northern even though Lithuania for example's closer to Central, maybe Latvia too. Well, culturally speaking, I could be wrong of course.


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## Federicoft (Sep 26, 2005)

Gzdvtz said:


> People of a certain nation are perceived as fat, loud, stupid and ugly but in reality they aren't. I can give you many more such examples.
> 
> Misconceptions are one thing, reality quite another.


The only reality is that Europe is not even a continent, it's just the westernmost part of Eurasia. There are no other "realities" about Europe, let alone its internal subdivision. There are just perceptions and conventions, in this country the Baltic States are considered Eastern Europe and nobody can say we are wrong.


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

Baltics are in Eastern Europe. Poland is Central. kay: Germany is Western.


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

Federicoft, just like Italy, Europe is a reality too, it has North, East, South, West.

So does the Iberian peninsula or the Balkan one, or or...


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## Big Cat (Dec 1, 2008)

garriochio said:


> Baltics are in Eastern Europe. Poland is Central. kay: Germany is Western.


Right, Baltics in the North, Poland in the East, Germany in the West


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

Big Cat said:


> Right, Baltics in the North, Poland in the East, Germany in the West


Lithuania is Eastern Europe just look at the pickchtuure. kay:
Poland is Central. :cheers:
@Gz Yes they have. 
Poland has always been and we could not care less what others think. (anyway they regard us as Central - see map)


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

xolang said:


>


:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

Aww, do you Pribaltics have an inferiority complex of some sort? Like the Slovenes who don't want to be seen as Balkan.


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

garriochio, you posted one map, Big Cat — three.

Clearly, _he_ wins the argument.

THREAD OVER!


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## Big Cat (Dec 1, 2008)

^^

That's fair


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## Gatis (Sep 22, 2003)

Western Europe is Rotting Peripheral Europe. Northern Europe is Freezing Polar Europe. Southern Europe is Europe With Encroaching Desert Due To Global Warming. Eastern Europe is Europe-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named.
And we - Baltics - are the Supercentral Kickass Europe. 

Now my inferiority complexes are healed.

(in reality I don't give a f... about this. We are where we are.)


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## Big Cat (Dec 1, 2008)

*Grybauskaite for President*

The last hurdle has finally been removed and the Lisbon Treaty is set to enter into force by the end of the year. The content of the treaty have been praised by leading politicians all over the Union. They predict that, come the Lisbon treaty come a united Europe, more efficient, more democratic and with more focus on the needs and demands of the citizens.

Sometimes you can´t help wondering whether political leaders actually believe all they say? If so they will wake up to a different world. In reality the Lisbon Treaty mainly provide European politicians with a new set of tools. If, in the future, they don’t use the tools better than they have used the present toolbox there will be no reason to expect improvements in European policy.

Without political will and skill – the Lisbon treaty is close to nothing.

This is why the appointment of the President of European Council matters so much. But we are going about this the wrong way. The discussions have primarily been on names – not on what role the president should play.

The European Parliament is expected to adopt a report on the president´s role at its mini-session in Brussels next week. This is just 24 hours ahead of an expected extra-ordinary European Council convened to appoint the president and the foreign minister/high representative. Much too late to have this debate.

In the European media, the latest name to appear in the speculations is the Belgian Prime Minister, Herman van Rompoy. Being able to keep Belgium together as one country is surely an impressive skill. But with van Rompoy as with Blair, Balkenende, Juncker and the rest of the names that are floating around, the media are also going about it backwards.

Before appointing a person you should define what the job is all about.

When Blair’s name turned up, the main arguments in favour of the former British Prime Minister was that he would be a person that would make Europe a bigger player on the international stage.

The reality is that Europe will only be a key player in international politics if and when Europe has a common policy and that is far from always the case.

Far too often the European message is unclear for the simple reason that European policies are a compromise of the will of 27 countries.

What good does it do you to be the EU president and a former British Prime minister meeting American President Barack Obama, if you have nothing to say when you meet him?

What the European Council need more than anything is a smooth operator that are able to get European politicians to agree on common visions and afterwards help turning these visions into concrete pieces of legislation.

Take a look back at the latest meetings of the European Council, and you´ll see it is not international affairs that steal the time of heads and state and government. It is internal European matters like financing a climate deal in Copenhagen, exit-strategies, immigration, energy security etc.

The president that Europe needs is somebody who has vision and at the same time have a great sense for detail. Somebody that is not easily scared by bullies like the French President, Nicolas Sarkozy.

Also, Europe needs a president that can explain to our newest member countries from Central and Eastern Europe, that the rest of Europe have moved into the 21st century and that they are more than willing to come and join us here.

In the 21st century we do not count dead Poles when we calculate voting weights and we do not take into account decrees written by an exile government in London during the Second World War. The war is over and Europe is focusing on the future.

When you look at it this way, the most obvious candidate turns out to be the *Lithuanian president*, Dalia Grybauskaite. She is known as the “Iron Lady” because she is tough towards everybody – and that will be needed in the European Council.

As a commissioner for the budget she proved herself to be a master of detail. Negotiating the financial perspectives will be one of the most important tasks for the President.

*She is from a small new member state from the north *and so is far better placed than almost anybody else to explain to the Poles that the war is over.

She is a conservative, which fits nicely with the ambition to appoint a socialist foreign minister.

If the new post is to become a success, heads of state and government are well advised to analyse the job demands before they appoint anybody. If they do that, things could well point them in the direction of Lithuania.









Ole Ryborg is European Editor of the Danish weekly magazine Monday Morning. He has been a Brussels-based journalist since 1988.

Link


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## Ønland (Nov 5, 2009)

I don't know if even wikipedia writes that Baltics is Northern that means they are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe

I know that Baltics have cold climate and in winter weather reach -20c and more.

Baltics fites so good with scandinavia


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## Concrete Stereo (May 21, 2005)

well, all of Eastern europe of course has a mostly continental climate, meaning it's seriously cold in winter.

Geographically one could argue anything north of the eastsea (called westsea in the baltics actually, I heard) would be northern Europe. But culturally the Baltics, especially Estonia, are far more close to scandinavia than to the slavic countries. 

How valid would it be to take the sand-grounds around the east-sea and define them in a way as a cultural unity? There is this strange geographical and cultural similarity between Kopenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki, St Petersburg, Tallinn, Riga, Vilnious, Gdansk and Hamburg, in a way even Amsterdam. That's what I felt, at least.


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## Ønland (Nov 5, 2009)

The Estonian language belongs to the Finnic branch of the Uralic languages. Estonian is thus closely related to Finnish, spoken on the other side of the Gulf of Finland, and is one of the few languages of Europe that is not of an Indo-European origin


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

Most of the Ugro-Finnic languages are spoken on the far eastern fringes of Europe though.


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## tQz1 (Aug 4, 2006)




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## Czas na Żywiec (Jan 17, 2005)

Ønland said:


> I don't know if even wikipedia writes that Baltics is Northern that means they are
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe
> 
> ...


Wikipedia really isn't a reliable a source since anyone can edit it. I could edit it to say that the Baltics are African if I like.


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## Federicoft (Sep 26, 2005)

Ønland said:


> I know that Baltics have cold climate and in winter weather reach -20c and more.
> 
> Baltics fites so good with scandinavia


So the Alps are in Northern Europe as well?


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## Asscity (Oct 21, 2009)

Geographically *North Europe* but the society its more like eastern-central europe.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Although geographically the Baltics have much more in common with eastern and central Europe, as they border them (Russia, Belarus, Poland), while there's the Baltic Sea between them and the Nordic countries.


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## Big Cat (Dec 1, 2008)

Czas na Żywiec;46040277 said:


> Wikipedia really isn't a reliable a source since anyone can edit it. I could edit it to say that the Baltics are African if I like.


No, you couldn't:

Definition of major areas and regions

United Nations Statistics Division- Standard Country and Area Codes Classifications


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## Geborgenheit (Sep 9, 2005)

Concrete Stereo said:


> Geographically one could argue anything north of the eastsea (called westsea in the baltics actually, I heard)


Eastsea ? :lol: It's *Baltic Sea* in almost all languages. P.S. Nobody calls it Westsea.


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## Federi (Oct 30, 2009)

i dont know, i would say it depends


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Verso said:


> Perhaps because only 1/5 of Slovenes live in the Balkan part? The biggest "city" in the Balkan part (Koper/Capodistria) has as "many" as 25,000 inhabitants.
> 
> Including the British Isles is ridiculous IMO. I think Northern Europe is best defined with cold. And Murmansk is much colder than London, not to mention it doesn't have sun for half a year. Anyway, I've changed my mind about where Baltics are; they were never considered Central Europe, even though the center of Europe is in Lithuania. I think they're northeastern Europe, or Northern Europe, if we choose just one direction.


Britain is northern Europe. Just look at a map makes this obvious. :nuts:


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

North East Europe.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Gareth said:


> Britain is northern Europe. Just look at a map makes this obvious. :nuts:


Perhaps Scotland, but not England or Wales.


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## tQz1 (Aug 4, 2006)

Geborgenheit said:


> Eastsea ? :lol: It's *Baltic Sea* in almost all languages. P.S. Nobody calls it Westsea.


It's Läänemeri, or West(ern) sea in Estonian.


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## Concrete Stereo (May 21, 2005)

tQz1 said:


> It's Läänemeri, or West(ern) sea in Estonian.


I'm a bit embarrassed to have called it the east-sea - I was wondering already why it sounded so weird. But of course, in English it's the Baltic Sea. But at least I seem to be correct with the 'west sea' part of the story


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

well in German its called Ostsee - East Sea :cheers:


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Verso said:


> Perhaps Scotland, but not England or Wales.


Er, no.


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

tQz1 said:


> It's Läänemeri, or West(ern) sea in Estonian.


Which is ironic, because it's called Itämeri in Finnish, which is East Sea.


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

Lithuania is Eastern Europe. :cheers1: And Poland Central.
Thank you :bowtie:


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

^^ It's all a question of perspectives, there is no finite answer. For us Poland is definitly eastern, and it is.

Geographically it is to our east, and is part of a region that has always been considered eastern to us politically/socially/culturally/etc.


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## Federicoft (Sep 26, 2005)

Ditto.
Poland is without the slightest doubt Eastern Europe for us here as well.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Gareth said:


> Er, no.


You told me to look at a map and I did. England and Wales are south of the southernmost parts of the Northern Europe (Denmark, Lithuania and eventually Scotland). I haven't met anyone who considers England or Wales Northern European. You called the Baltics northeastern European, and they're more to the north than England and Wales. You hardly even have snow.


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## Kampflamm (Dec 28, 2003)

Gareth said:


> Which is ironic, because it's called Itämeri in Finnish, which is East Sea.


Also called _Ostsee_ in German.

Shame that it doesn't have its own fast food chain named after it though.


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

Federicoft said:


> Ditto.
> Poland is without the slightest doubt Eastern Europe for us here as well.


For us PIGS are South Europe with northernmost parts of Italy probably being west europe 
Rome defenitely is not west europe neither is madrid - both are south europe :cheers1:


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## Federicoft (Sep 26, 2005)

garriochio said:


> For us PIGS are South Europe with northernmost parts of Italy probably being west europe
> Rome defenitely is not west europe neither is madrid - both are south europe :cheers1:


And since we don't have any complex about our geographical location, we are not likely to take offence at being called "Southern European". In fact it's exactly what we are (which is not mutually exclusive with being Western European).


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## brisavoine (Mar 19, 2006)

eklips said:


> ^^ It's all a question of perspectives, there is no finite answer. For us Poland is definitly eastern, and it is.
> 
> Geographically it is to our east, and is part of a region that has always been considered eastern to us politically/socially/culturally/etc.


Well, for the average Frenchman in the street, it would go like this (I'm not saying that I approve of that view):


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

Federicoft said:


> And since we don't have any complex about our geographical location, we are not likely to take offence at being called "Southern European". In fact it's exactly what we are (which is not mutually exclusive with being Western European).


Exatcly same with Poles who, being Central european are not excluded from being western european. In fact this is what we are and could not care less whatrest of yourope thinks and what will have understand and take our way of seeing ourselfevs in just few yeras. Wait a second it already did kay: (dont mind old farts here that will think to their deaths that Poland is a part of Russia) :lol:
I just write you truth from time to time so that you would not get shocked in the future )


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

*Information*

this is actuall division of Europe









S - southern
E - eastern
N - northern
C - central
W - western
 

note: C,N,W = W too :cheers:




Thank you
:bowtie:


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## Nolke (Oct 25, 2003)

Looking at the discussion here it really seems that people tend to forget that Europe isn't defined as a "continent" by physical criteria but by cultural ones. The centre of that so-called "European" culture and society is supposed to be in the west, so from that point of view anything eastbound from that centre is eastern, as well as something south of it is southern, as simple as that. It's surely pretty hard to find where a gravity centre for (undefined) sociocultural stuff is located, but westerners all deeply know it's probably not in Poland nor in Lithuania: however much those countries are surely European, the centre has to be somewhere west from there.

After all, pretty much every problem when defining regions, no matter the escale, is related to the fact that several kind of criteria can be used and are actually used to do it, and usually not all of them fit with each other. Europe is an "Asian" peninsula defined by some sociocultural features which aren't equally intense all over its extension (actually we don't even agree much on which could be those features), but the fact is that since there's a convention that sets clear limits to the continent (end in the Urals and the Caucasus), you can easily calculate a geometrical centre for it. For that reason this is so very confusing, because some people have asumed the concept of Europe in a relative way, attending to the cultural criteria, while some others just take the easy way and, when debating, think of an abstract and absolut European unity. Along with this confusion, add to the mix a background of complexes, wannabes and a lack of will in understanding, that produce all kind of biased tendentious beliefs ,and you'll have a random SSC discussion on geographical issues from pretty much every subforum; and this is avalaible for people from anywhere, of course.

Until here there's no new story. I think the problem about the European limits are related with that very fact of Europe's centre being not in the geographical centre of the area within its conventional limits but displaced to the west, that makes westerners feel quite close to those first countries east from them, located in the so-called geographical centre (such as Poland and the Baltics), considering them worth of being within their own geopolitical group, but the issue here is all about those lands beyond that are still within the limits of the continent, the easternmost slav and continental countries whose culture and society is much more different. Westerners usually have a lot of reservations about the affinity of those continental lands with the concept of Europe (which is "in possession" of them), so they usually think it's pretty clear: Europe ends at the eastern borders of Poland, Romania or Latvia, it doesn't go beyond. The point I want to make here is that inhabitants from those countries supposed to be bordering may actually feel close enough to that eastern region that don't really feel so much as a border but as a "hinge" between two sides of the same united reality, which is Europe; in fact maybe they feel so close to them as much as they feel to the maritime/peninsular side of the continent (despite many of the whishes of many of them of being associated with the west mostly), and now that's a pretty interesting issue because it means that people from eastern Poland or Lithuania may have a point when they say they're Europe's centre, some of them really perceive it like that and believe it. In other words, the perceived limits of Europe are imposed from a western-centric point of view, doesn't sound nice but it's like that, but the truth is that there isn't a so significant border over there (and it's not like there're no critical borders between world regions, take a look at the limits on the Mediterranean or along the USA-Mexico boder), so the definition about what is the relative position of a certain part of the continent seems to be more relative than ever from considering that point view. To me Baltics can be as central as eastern, it really depends, but it's surely northern (and freaking cold).


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## Alle (Sep 23, 2005)

Northern Europe. Geographically they are at a border, of course, and it can be discussed. But I find these nations distinguish themselves.

Anyhow, it also depends on how you see it overall, the bigger picture.


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## Big Cat (Dec 1, 2008)

garriochio said:


> :cheers1: And Poland Central.


And Poland is the center of the World :cheers1:



> In fact this is what we are and could not care less whatrest of yourope thinks and what will have understand and take our way of seeing ourselfevs in just few yeras.
> 
> Thank you :bowtie:


:cheers1:


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## garriochio (Nov 12, 2006)

Big Cat said:


> And Poland is the center of the World :cheers1:


No, we are centre of Europe 
:bowtie:


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## Gareth (Apr 27, 2004)

Verso said:


> You told me to look at a map and I did. England and Wales are south of the southernmost parts of the Northern Europe (Denmark, Lithuania and eventually Scotland). I haven't met anyone who considers England or Wales Northern European. You called the Baltics northeastern European, and they're more to the north than England and Wales. You hardly even have snow.


Firstly, how can England and Wales be south of northern Europe, when they're in northern Europe? It's not a country or defined place.

What's snow got to do with anything? Snow cover varies by region, in the British Isles. Inland areas get a lot more than coastal areas. I don't think Denmark gets anymore than we do. And then inland areas of Germany & Poland probably get more. We're northern Europe and that's that.


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## Verso (Jun 5, 2006)

Yeah, whatever.


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## kaethar (Aug 26, 2008)

Scandinavia: Sweden, Norway, Denmark
Nordics: Scandinavia + Iceland, Finland
Northern Europe: Nordics + Baltics

:cheers:


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## bubach_hlubach (Jan 16, 2005)

Obviously north. I can tell it ain't south. :nuts: :lol:

:cheers:


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## Random_Guy (Dec 14, 2008)

Big Cat said:


> And Poland is the center of the World :cheers1:


Obviously. We'll rule the world one day, you'll see my Lithuanian friend. :cheers1:

I'm not sure why, but I'd most likely put Latvia and Lithuania in Eastern Europe and Estonia in Northern Europe, because of its strong connotations with Scandinavia and Finland. But then again, I might be mistaken, as I'm not so good regarding this region of Europe when it comes to culture, etc. 

Does it really matter though? They're some kind of mix between North and East of Europe, I think.


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## Gatis (Sep 22, 2003)

> some kind of mix between North and East of Europe, I think.


sounds like truth


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## serfin (May 21, 2007)

garriochio said:


> No, we are centre of Europe
> :bowtie:


Poland is central europe????? perhaps for polands people... i believe that the majority think that is an eastern country


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

Albania Eastern Europe but Greece Southern and Slovenia Central? Garri, that's so stupid.


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

serfin said:


> Poland is central europe????? perhaps for polands people... i believe that the majority think that is an eastern country


Poland is only Eastern Europe in the pre-1989 _political_ context where everything behind the Iron Courtain was Eastern Europe.


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## Jamuary (Jul 11, 2009)

del


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

Personally I'm more likely to put all Balkan countries in the Southern Europe category.


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## Gzdvtz (Oct 25, 2009)

I think we need to apply this as the definition of 'Northern Europe' :lol:


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## i3arahir (Feb 5, 2013)

Big Cat said:


> And Poland is the center of the World :cheers1:


Poland may not be the center of the world, but definitely Europe :cheers1:


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## ArtZ (Feb 17, 2006)

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are northern European countries and Poland is central European.


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## jwojcie (Jun 4, 2009)

oh f..k... zombie thread... kill it, kill it now


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## italiano_pellicano (Feb 22, 2010)

as nationalism


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