# MEXICO | High Speed Rail



## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

*First Bullet Train in North America to be Built in Mexico*

Mexico to open bidding on rapid train project 

El Universal 
Viernes 18 de noviembre de 2005 
Miami Herald, 

Mexico will open bidding on a US12 billion bullet train project to link the capital with the country's second-largest city, Guadalajara.
The bidding is expected to begin by early 2006 after a feasibility study is completed, Transportation Secretary Pedro Cerisola y Weber said Wednesday.

The train would reduce travel times on a 600-kilometer (375mile) route that would also link the central Mexico cities of Queretaro, Irapuato and Leon. Mexico City is seven hours from Guadalajara by bus; officials have not said how long the journey would take on the bullet train.

Mexico City was left without passenger trains in 2001 for the first time in 127 years. Work is now scheduled on a suburban commuter rail line.

Most national passenger runs were quietly canceled in 1999 following decades of mismanagement of the state-owned passenger rail service. Mexican trains carried 37.4 million passengers a year at their peak in the 1970s.


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## I-275westcoastfl (Feb 15, 2005)

This is a proposal but california and florida both have proposals to build bullet trains all florida needs is the money and Tampa will be linked to Orlando with a bullet train so until you see concrete pillars going up i woudlnt believe it because building a train is expensive today


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

No this is not a proposal. Bidding is already in place and has as you can read has been announced. The bidding is being handled by a French concern.

Neither Florida nor California have concrete plans for high speed trains, The reason there is no money for US projects which is currently being funneled to fund expensive foolish wars and not spent in people or infrastructure. 

It is a matter of priorities.

12 Billion Dollars is not much for an economy the size of Mexico's, and it makes more sense in it's highly urbanized and developed urban corridors. 

Orlando and Tampa are set in steamy swamps in the backwaters of the south. In any case their inhabitants prefer gas guzzeling SUV's.


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## mic of Orion (Feb 24, 2005)

great news


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## Nick in Atlanta (Nov 5, 2003)

Good luck to you Mexico!! Hopefully I'll get a chance to ride this train someday.


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## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

No trains in Mexico since 2001?
:eek2:


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## spyguy (Apr 16, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> No this is not a proposal. Bidding is already in place and has as you can read has been announced. The bidding is being handled by a French concern.
> 
> Neither Florida nor California have concrete plans for high speed trains, The reason there is no money for US projects which is currently being funneled to fund expensive foolish wars and not spent in people or infrastructure.
> 
> ...


Didn't leave anybody out of that now did you?


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## addisonwesley (Jun 19, 2005)

Oh no, zee americans may get angry.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

bitxofo said:


> No trains in Mexico since 2001?
> :eek2:



Yeap...that's right NO PASSENGER trains since 2001. 

They were old and competed for track space with frieght trains. It is a shame. But reason has since taken over and several projects are in the works:

1. Bullet Train Mexico City- Guadalajara (the first in the Western Hemisphere! and don't say Aceola it's just a "bullet" shaped clunker)
2. Suburban trains around Mexico City
3. Inter-urban train in the central Mexican state of Guanajuato.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

Damn cocky Gringos!


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## spyguy (Apr 16, 2005)

Why do you keep insulting Americans in this thread? This is supposed to be about trains in Mexico, not their peers in America.


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## crazyevildude (Aug 15, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> Yeap...that's right NO PASSENGER trains since 2001.
> 
> They were old and competed for track space with frieght trains. It is a shame. But reason has since taken over and several projects are in the works:
> 
> ...


Not the first in the western hemisphere. Spain is just in the western hemisphere and they have it already. First in the Americas though, still not a bad achievment at all .
I'm really Glad to see such development in Mexico, it could really boast the economy over a wide area. And I hope to visit Mexico one day so maybe I'll get to ride it .


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

spyguy999 said:


> Why do you keep insulting Americans in this thread? This is supposed to be about trains in Mexico, not their peers in America.



RELAX, It's a "term of endearment" I just hate your president and the caos and hell that he has created on the common people of Irak. 

With all of the great institutions and think tanks in the US ...the only fool you can come up with to lead the free world was this simpleton?

I am so pisssed off at the American electorate for being so naive about the world around them.

Remember ... Bush impacts the world.... Oaxaca, Timbuctu, Naitrobi Madras and not just Peoria. This naive, mumbling village fool is at the helm! 

GOD couldn't you have done better?

Anyway back to trains.


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## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

crazyevildude said:


> Not the first in the western hemisphere. Spain is just in the western hemisphere and they have it already. First in the Americas though, still not a bad achievment at all .
> I'm really Glad to see such development in Mexico, it could really boast the economy over a wide area. And I hope to visit Mexico one day so maybe I'll get to ride it .


What is "western hemisphere"?
:?
There are 2 hemispheres:
-Northern.
-Southern.

Spain has got high speed trains since 1992, 4th country in the world.


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## Bertez (Jul 9, 2005)

Who will be making the trains??


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

The western hemisphere is the americas and the eastern hemisphere is eurasia/africa/australia.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

It's a bidding process so I don't know. Certainly Seimens, CAF and Bombardier will apply.


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## Haber (Aug 25, 2004)

This should be a wake up call to the states to start investing money in rail instead of freeways.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

Yes indeed before the oceans swallow Manhattan.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

PROJECT FOR A MEXICO CITY - GUADALARAJA HIGH SPEED LINE 

The Ministry of Communications and Transport for Mexico (SCT) has appointed SYSTRA to assist it in drawing up the terms of tender for the turnkey project to build a high-speed line between Mexico City and Guadalajara. The tender is due to be launched in mid 2005.
In the second phase of the project, SYSTRA will help SCT with the process of drawing up the contracts and the deed of concession which will be awarded to the contracting firm responsible for the design, construction and operation of this twin-track line.
SYSTRA is supported by 2 Mexican firms, one for legal aspects and the other partner providing technical assistance (SINTRA S.A. de C.V. Sistemas INtegrales para el TRAnsporte), to ensure the transfer of technology, optimum integration of the project, and compliance with Mexican law.
The Mexican Federal Government has been working on this project since 2002. The line will operate at a commercial speed of around 300 km per hour, cutting journey time between Mexico City and Guadalajara to 2 hours. It will also serve the cities of Queretaro and Irapuato. In total, 28 million people will benefit from the new line. According to the SCT, fares will be comparable to those of luxury coaches, with a faster and safer service.
The line will be the first step in a programme to develop high speed lines across Mexico.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

US foreign said is usually made up of weapons and and explosives , three quarters of which is paid directly to US suppliers and contractors.


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## Christianmx (Mar 9, 2003)

SuperDog said:


> Sorry for all train buffs on this site but I am so angry at The US president and the thick headed "American" people that voted for him.
> 
> Every day now all I hear is 70 or 90 Iraquies killed in bomb blast. Children that will grow up traumatized and without fathers. All in the name of bull crap patriotic garbage that is fed to the "American" people by FOX/CNN and other sanitized packaged media.
> 
> ...



It seems you need to find a different thread and a different forum to get your anger out. Cut it out.


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## Gunther (Nov 18, 2005)

Mexico has no business spending 12 billion on bullet trains when 40% of its population is below the poverty line according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

Don't talk to me about poverty...... the US is poor in spirit and morals. Look at Katrina and the maimed children of Irak.


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## I-275westcoastfl (Feb 15, 2005)

Gunther said:


> Mexico has no business spending 12 billion on bullet trains when 40% of its population is below the poverty line according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html


And by the time the train would be build 10% would have hopped the fence to the usa.:rofl: Superdog stop bashing america with your idiotic statements, now its a big pain in the ass.


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## Frank J. Sprague (Nov 19, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> This was from an "American" blog urging the US to invest in rail.
> 
> As far as the fool questioning my educational background and worried about the stinness of US foreign Aid. The money destined for AIDS was actually blocked by religious fanatics in your country that were opposed to the use of condoms.
> 
> The US only doles out a meager foreign aid when it suits it's political interest.


I wish condoms had been more poplular with your parents. I can't understand why you are so hard on the patron saint of illegal immigration, Jorge Arbusto. The sycophantic relationship he has with your president is disgusting to American patriots, the last person who performed like that in the oval office was Monica Lewinsky.

I can't wait for President Tancredo, I imagine his first infrastructure project will be a 2000 mile long fence. Then the money spent on projects like the "Steel Interstate" will create jobs for Americans. It will be quite a boost to America, millions of tons of steel, the creation of an railway electrification industry.


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## Frank J. Sprague (Nov 19, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> US foreign said is usually made up of weapons and and explosives , three quarters of which is paid directly to US suppliers and contractors.


Flushed down the toilet in any event. Money wasted purchasing F-16's for Pakistan should be invested in electric locomotives for America, built here in the USA by Americans.


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## -ò_ó- (Aug 5, 2005)

Gunther said:


> Mexico has no business spending 12 billion on bullet trains when 40% of its population is below the poverty line according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html


Well if you take Cia world fact book as a reliable source then we don't have much to talk about


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## -ò_ó- (Aug 5, 2005)

I-275westcoastfl said:


> And by the time the train would be build 10% would have hopped the fence to the usa.:rofl:


Is that supposed to be funny?


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

Mexico can be anything you throw at it...but one thing for sure is that we have never invaded countries and burned children with napalm.

Just remember this...you are not NATIVE North Americans... WE ARE!

So be humble.


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## desi_pardesi (Nov 19, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> Don't talk to me about poverty...... the US is poor in spirit and morals. Look at Katrina and the maimed children of *Irak*.



it's iraq...


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

In French (and I believe Spanish), it's spelled Irak.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

Thank you for the correction I will keep that in mind.

Again I do appologize for bringing up my ire with the US and "American's" naive world view on this thread. 

It just that I am overwelhmed at the daily death and destruction that is going on in Irak caused by this foolish invasion. The American people must take responsabillity for their leaders. And I don't wish them any harm because deep down I do like ( not love) the US.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Is this thread about the Bagdad - Basra High Speed Rail link? To be finished in 2010, using Korean technology!


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## Frank J. Sprague (Nov 19, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> Mexico can be anything you throw at it...but one thing for sure is that we have never invaded countries and burned children with napalm.
> 
> Just remember this...you are not NATIVE North Americans... WE ARE!
> 
> So be humble.


You an Aztec? Those were the natives.

And your government puts out a comic book to help illegal aliens invade the US. In the past decade illegal aliens from south of the border have killed more Americans than Al Qaeda, but look what Vincete Fox's beyotch Jorge Arbusto has done about it. NADA! Thank God we have the Minuteman patriots doing what Jorge won't do. Secure the border, impeach Arbusto!

Then build the "Steel Interstate!"


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## Frank J. Sprague (Nov 19, 2005)

momochan said:


> Is this thread about the Bagdad - Basra High Speed Rail link? To be finished in 2010, using Korean technology!


I had not heard of that one, back in the eighties they had similar plans but the Iran-Iraq war took up all the money. Same thing with a subway for Baghdad, I understand they do have some tunnels that were never used, kind of like Cinncinati.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

Reading your comments just reconfirms my belief that most of you are very poorly educated. 

Ignorance is what breeds "patriotism. Foolish blind ignorance. 

You are not fit to be a world leader!


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## sequoias (Dec 21, 2004)

US has the bullet train since for a while, from Washington, DC to Boston, MA. Mexico is not the first in North America to have that.


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## SuperDog (Feb 2, 2005)

Acaeala is not a "bullet" train, it is just shaped like one. It uses the same tracks as Amtrak and goes just 15 miles faster.


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## Latin l0cO (Nov 8, 2004)

Frank J. Sprague said:


> You an Aztec? Those were the natives.
> 
> And your government puts out a comic book to help illegal aliens invade the US. *In the past decade illegal aliens from south of the border have killed more Americans than Al Qaeda*, but look what Vincete Fox's beyotch Jorge Arbusto has done about it. NADA! Thank God we have the Minuteman patriots doing what Jorge won't do. Secure the border, impeach Arbusto!
> 
> Then build the "Steel Interstate!"


I seriously doubt that. Most illegal aliens are not killers, they're just looking for work. Lets just stick to the thread.


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## Humberto123 (Oct 1, 2005)

spyguy999 said:


> Why do you keep insulting Americans in this thread? This is supposed to be about trains in Mexico, not their peers in America.


This "SuperDog" is very bitter and negative. The only things he does is critize, minimize, and insult everybody who disagrees with him. In the international and the Latin American forums. In his "universe" he is the only beholder of truth and justice!

Go to the Vet to get your anti-depresants Superdog!

And then lets get back to the topic at hand: *SUBWAYS AND URBAN TRANSPORT*

PS. If this bullet train network happens that would great for Mexico!


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## Effer (Jun 9, 2005)

I don't think the US will let it happen.


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## SOLOMON (May 18, 2005)

..and ACELA EXPRESS , between Wash. and Boston, 190 miles/hour
I think this is the first Bullet train in North America.


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## spyguy (Apr 16, 2005)

effer said:


> I don't think the US will let it happen.


It will happen eventually. But probably when the rest of the world has maglevs :hahaha:


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## dhuwman (Oct 6, 2005)

I thought the US already have a bullet train in the East Coast somewhere in between, boston-NY-Philly-DC line? I actuallly rode it before. Was it not a true bullet train then?


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## mr_storms (Oct 29, 2005)

People consider it not a true high speed train because it does not have dedicated track and can actually only go 200+ kmh in certain zones due to various restrictions (and the overhead wiring from DC to NY was supposedly done in the 30s so high speed are not attainable there). In conneticut it goes ~240 kmh though


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## Frank J. Sprague (Nov 19, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> Reading your comments just reconfirms my belief that most of you are very poorly educated.
> 
> Ignorance is what breeds "patriotism. Foolish blind ignorance.
> 
> You are not fit to be a world leader!


LMAO! 

You've shown why El Presidente Jorge Arbusto needs to be replaced by President Tancredo, we need that fence now. Then time for "Steel Interstate."


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## Frank J. Sprague (Nov 19, 2005)

dhuwman said:


> I thought the US already have a bullet train in the East Coast somewhere in between, boston-NY-Philly-DC line? I actuallly rode it before. Was it not a true bullet train then?


There were several other trains dating back to the sixties, one was called the Turbotrain and it used gas turbines. Big gas hog and not very reliable anyway, I believe the Canadians may have purchased a few also. There was an electric system too, known as the Metroliner built by Budd. No attempt at streamlining, blunt nosed it looked more like a commuter EMU.

I think a version of the Swedish X2000 would have been the best option for the US. Also a new line running inland from East of New Haven to Providence would have helped. Along much of the route it shares trackage with commuter trains which imposes quite a delay.


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> Mexico can be anything you throw at it...but one thing for sure is that we have never invaded countries and burned children with napalm.
> 
> Just remember this...you are not NATIVE North Americans... WE ARE!
> 
> So be humble.



I see. So did Spain know that the Aztecs were speaking Spanish in 1000 AD?
I mean if you are natives then Spanish must have also been the native language right?
I mean there can't be found ANY examples of Spanish conflict with Native American I presume you are saying?


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

```
[QUOTE=SuperDog]Mexico can be anything you throw at it...but one thing for sure is that we have never invaded countries and  burned children with napalm.

QUOTE]
```

And Mexico never had the honor of being a major player in stopping the tide of fascism and communism around the world either (among other achivements). So you win some you lose some.


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## edubejar (Mar 16, 2003)

Superdog, I can't believe you've managed to turn this thread into something more along the lines of US-bashing. It's really taken away a lot of the effectiveness of the thread. Look, it's understandable if you have issues over Bush and the war in Iraq, etc. but keep a plug on it until the appropriate thread. 

I think it's a great thing that Mexico is building a "bullet train." But, I want to clarify: why do you call it a bullet train?" Are they calling it "tren-bala" in Mexico? I thought Bullet Train was a proper-name that specifically pertained to Japan's high-speed train--like TGV in France, ICE in Germany, AVE in Spain, etc. Or do you mean Mexico is about to build a "high-speed train?" Well I think that's wonderful. I'd love to see that--and I would certainly love to ride on it on my first visit to Mexico City and Guadalajara. I wonder what path it would take...shortest path? I imagine mountainous areas, thus some deviations. I bet some of the sceneries along the way will be beautiful.

Anyway, stop bashing the U.S. The fact is, the U.S. has done as much good as harm. You can't expect a powerful nation to be an angel, can you? That would be too utopian. Give the U.S. some slack. Every world power has abused its powers, in one way or another. That's how they achieve world power. The day Mexico will become a world power you'll see what I mean. Just ask the Ancient Greeks, the Romans and Western Europeans of the early and late Rennaissance. 

And don't get too big of a nationalistic head. As far as I'm concerned, Mexico doesn't have trains--and prior to the date you've mentioned, I doubt the trains were even to campesino-standards. The fact is, Mexico has lacked in mass transit--and even worse than the U.S. Atleast in the most populated part of the U.S. (east-coast), trains have not stopped to move people since the industrial era. 

You really dont' have any grounds to critisize. Let's enjoy Mexico's good rail news without the bashing.


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## -ò_ó- (Aug 5, 2005)

edubejar said:


> I'd love to see that--and I would certainly love to ride on it on my first visit to Mexico City and Guadalajara. I wonder what path it would take...shortest path? I imagine mountainous areas, thus some deviations. I bet some of the sceneries along the way will be beautiful.


The train will have stations in these cities:Mexico, Queretaro, Irapuato, Leon then Guadalajara this map shows the path 













edubejar said:


> And don't get too big of a nationalistic head. As far as I'm concerned, Mexico doesn't have trains


Well as far as i know theres a passengers train in the northern state of Chihuahua that goes thru the copper canyon and i think theres another one in the Mayan Riviera (southeast of the country)

here some pics of the train in Chihuahua


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## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

SuperDog said:


> The western hemisphere is the americas and the eastern hemisphere is eurasia/africa/australia.


:crazy:
1st time I see this!
:crazy:


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

The Acela service between Boston and Washington is High-speed, I don't know what it means to be bullet though.


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## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

samsonyuen said:


> The Acela service between Boston and Washington is High-speed, I don't know what it means to be bullet though.


Average speed for Acela is around 90-100km/h. That is NOT high speed!!
:nono:


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## UrbanFanatic! (Jul 5, 2005)

It is called bullet train because in Spanish is Tren Bala...
Nice for my country..


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## UrbanFanatic! (Jul 5, 2005)

desi_pardesi said:


> it's iraq...


*In Spanish it is Irak!!* 

:sleepy:


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## UrbanFanatic! (Jul 5, 2005)

nomarandlee said:


> LOL..I have to laugh at this statement. Were the two in a race? Has Mexico "won" anything? This shows more any sense of an inferiority complex you may have then anything of any substance.
> 
> Once Americans flock to Mexico for a better way of life instead of the other way around I will be impressed. You encourage millions of the poorest Mexicans that Mexico can't take care of and then somehow claim some sort of "win" or superiority. Pathetic if you ask me.



No one asked you..


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## Vendrip (Nov 11, 2005)

Dont put attention to the stupid third worlder of superfreak... mexicans in general are very friendly and kind with their american partners.

Amazing news for Mexico, i really wish this train to be completed soon.


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## deëpdïsh (May 30, 2005)

nomarandlee said:


> LOL..I have to laugh at this statement. Were the two in a race? Has Mexico "won" anything? This shows more any sense of an inferiority complex you may have then anything of any substance.
> 
> Once Americans flock to Mexico for a better way of life instead of the other way around I will be impressed. You encourage millions of the poorest Mexicans that Mexico can't take care of and then somehow claim some sort of "win" or superiority. Pathetic if you ask me.


i dont think superdog is mexican.. i think he's a troll or something blogging against americans wearing a mexican mask


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Today:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...or-mexico-city-queretaro-high-speed-line.html
> 
> *Route selected for Mexico City - Querétaro high speed line*
> 28 Feb 2014
> ...


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## Manitopiaaa (Mar 6, 2006)

^^ When is it supposed to finish construction? Travel through Mexico by rail today is awful. Buses are more frequent and faster


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

It's just a feasibility study, isn't it? The decision to build it or not and where the money for it comes is still in the future...


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

This is never going to happen.


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

In relation to its economy's size, population size and density, Mexico is the second largest country without intercity passenger rail transport, except the Chepe tourist line and a small suburban service out of DF. Such a shame. And I doubt this will be built. Latin America has an abismal record on passenger rail transport...


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## jamc92 (Dec 3, 2012)

Mexico to tender $7.4 billion in passenger train projects in 2014
MEXICO CITY 

(Reuters) - Mexico's government will tender three passenger train projects this year worth 97 billion pesos ($7.4 billion), two of which will service the capital's sprawling metropolitan area, the country's transport ministry said on Tuesday.

Project details will be published ahead of the contract tender in early 2014, the ministry said in a statement.

The new trains will connect the country's capital with the cities of Toluca and Queretaro, in addition to a train traversing tourist destinations along Mexico's southern Yucatan peninsula.

The 237-kilometer (147 mile) Mexico City-Queretaro route will cost about $3.3 billion.

The 47-mile route connecting Mexico City with Toluca, capital of the state of Mexico, will cost $2.9 billion, while the nearly 200-mile Yucatan route will cost $1.2 billion.

Both public and private funds will be used to build the projects, the ministry said.

In July, Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto said he expects to oversee $300 billion in spending on major infrastructure projects aimed at beefing up the country's economy during his six-year term.

Public and private investments in transportation and communications infrastructure will reach nearly a third of that total between 2013 and 2018, the president said.

Bombardier Inc (BBDb.TO), the world's biggest train manufacturer, will likely bid on each of the rail projects, the company's Mexico chief said in June.

Markus Mildner, executive vice president of Siemens Mexico (SIEGn.DE), has said the German industrial conglomerate, is also interested in bidding on rail projects.

Mexican trains currently transport about 13 percent of freight cargo, but only 1.2 percent of passengers, according to government data. Cars and trucks, meanwhile, account for more than half of freight and 96 percent of passengers.

($1 = 13.1151 Mexican pesos)


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## X-17 (Aug 2, 2010)

It will be built, there is already a lot of money invested. Plus it is part of a bigger plan for passenger train rails in the USA and Mexico


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## jonasry (Feb 6, 2011)

Well, when it comes to investment it should of course be noted that Mexico already has a decent rail network. Privatized in the early 1990s it's a bit harder to implement passenger schemes but it shouldn't be impossible to negotiate as Amtrak are doing across the border.

There are quite a few cities that would be perfect for commuter or short inter-city services with upgrades to the already existing tracks.


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

> (Reuters) - Mexico on Sunday announced the opening of an international tender to build a high-speed passenger train linking Mexico City and the industrial city of Queretaro.
> 
> The project, which was previously estimated to cost about $3.3 billion, would allow travel over the 210 kilometers (130 miles) between the Mexican capital and Queretaro at up to 300 kph, moving 23,000 passengers a day, Mexico's transport ministry said in a statement.
> 
> _The ministry gave no price estimate_, adding that work would begin this year and operations would start in the second half of 2017.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/27/mexico-train-idUSL2N0Q20LD20140727

3 years from first shovel to completion. If achieved, that must be some kind of a world record, especially given the challenging terrain between Mexico City and Queretaro.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

3.3 billion for 210 km of HSR at 300 km/h (kph does not make any sense, but then again it's used in country still using the imperial system) is a bit optimistic, IMO.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^Mexico is extremely cheap country, is amazing how inexpensive is to produce in that country, intensive cheap manpower and qualified engineering. There is financial and macroeconomic stability assured for at least the rest of this decade, so no surprise they will be able to achieve this challenge.

this map from last year, envisions 2 high-speed lines, the tender for the Merida-Cancun line is soon also.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

Kilometers per hour (kph) means the same thing as km/h. Neither makes any more or less sense than the other.


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2004)

elekto said:


>


I suppose Mexico City - Queretaro is just the first phase? Because it would certainly make much more sense to extend the line to Leon and Guadalajara as well.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

k.k.jetcar said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/27/mexico-train-idUSL2N0Q20LD20140727
> 
> 3 years from first shovel to completion. If achieved, that must be some kind of a world record, especially given the challenging terrain between Mexico City and Queretaro.



the terrain is not that bad, in this video you can see short clips of the render where the line will run, is mainly flat, no mountains, no lakes, no rivers, only small ravines.






about a 10% of the line is already done since in 2008 the government rebuilt the Buenavista station in Mexico City and developed a suburban train line, who will share the track with the high speed train for about 27km of the 210km to Queretaro, so are about 183km of high speed line to be built only.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

*Buenavista Station, Mexico City:*


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> I suppose Mexico City - Queretaro is just the first phase? Because it would certainly make much more sense to extend the line to Leon and Guadalajara as well.


Indeed is the 1st phase only, the extention to Guadalajara comes further.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

Nouvellecosse said:


> Kilometers per hour (kph) means the same thing as km/h. Neither makes any more or less sense than the other.


No, it doesn't. "k" is the abreviation for kilo of Kelvin (depending on whether it is capitalised or not) and kilo/Kelvin per hour doesn't measure anything. There's a reason why you can't find kph as a SI-abreviation anywhere.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

In the context of rates of speed, the other measures aren't relevant. Besides, there's a difference between scientific terms and normal language. kph is in common enough usage that it's easily recognised - at least in metric parts of NA.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

Nothing scientific about km/h and I explained to you, why it doesn't make any sense. The fact that a big number of people think that this is the apropriate way of writing does not change this fact. And the metric parts of NA are scientists who use km/h.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

KingNick: strictly speak you are right, but is it really THAT important to argue about? Let's discuss trains better… A bit surprising that Mexico is allocating money for this with so many other problems around.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^it means those problems are not that bad as media shows, the country has easily the capacity, the problems are not much worse than those of other countries that already developed high speed lines, like Turkey or Uzbekistan.

There is already another project under construction an intercity train between Mexico City and Toluca:

construction started 2 weeks ago:


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

I also see no reason, why Mexico should not be able to carry out such project. For the size of the country 3.3 billion are not even that spectacular.


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## Gatech12 (Feb 6, 2013)

> KingNick: strictly speak you are right, but is it really THAT important to argue about? Let's discuss trains better… A bit surprising that Mexico is allocating money for this with so many other problems around.


 Mexico is one of the largest economies in the world they have the capability to do that and even more. Moreover, they are also going to invest in a new airport in Mexico city.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Manitopiaaa said:


> ^^ When is it supposed to finish construction? Travel through Mexico by rail today is awful. Buses are more frequent and faster



If everything goes nominal, by 2018 you can travel at high speed in Mexico, btw the only intercity passenger rail services today are a couple and only for touristic reason, so those trains are basically (and purposely) old fashioned.


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## X-17 (Aug 2, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I suppose Mexico City - Queretaro is just the first phase? Because it would certainly make much more sense to extend the line to Leon and Guadalajara as well.


Leon-Guadalajara are planned for the next phase. Then probably Aguascalientes-Monterrey. In the faaar future it is planned to reach Juarez.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

The infrastructure aready done: 

-Buenavista Station plus 27 km of standard track up to Cuautitlan station.
-It will be prolonged one more suburban station to the town of Huehuetoca, there on, the high speed line will be built.
-The High Speed Train is not going to stop in none intermediate station of the suburban train, it will be used a 3rd track to avoid them.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I think is the same reason why we need to go to space. We have problems back here on earth; war, starving, diseases. But we need to explore other worlds if we want to survive. 

The question is not why Mexico is going to build a high speed train. The real question is why we did not build it first.

The mexican train could start the large scale use of high speed rails in north america. 
I love the idea. kay:


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

It will be a bit ironic if Mexico being the poorest of the big three countries in North America is indeed the first to build a true high speed rail.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

I agree with you both, if Mexico is successful in this challenge, it will be ironic and at same time the start of a boom of the High Speed Rail not only in North America but in whole the Americas. I see Canada, USA, Chile and Brazil coming soon after developing their HSR.


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## Bronxwood (Feb 7, 2010)

Sunfuns said:


> KingNick: strictly speak you are right, but is it really THAT important to argue about? Let's discuss trains better… A bit surprising that Mexico is allocating money for this with so many other problems around.


As others have mentioned, projects like these aren't too over the top for a country the size of Mexico. I'm surprised these projects didn't come sooner considering the densely populated central region of the country which has many cities that can be well connected in no time.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

Indeed


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## xrtn2 (Jan 12, 2011)

elekto said:


> I agree with you both, if Mexico is successful in this challenge, it will be ironic and at same time the start of a boom of the High Speed Rail not only in North America but in whole the Americas. I see Canada, USA, Chile and Brazil coming soon after developing their HSR.




In August Brazil's government will bid our first high-speed rail($ 15 billion) betwwen Rio and Campinas. 


518 km long. 320 km/h


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

More images of the *Buenavista Railway Station*.


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## Gatech12 (Feb 6, 2013)

*Mexico tenders for high-speed train linking capital and Queretaro*

Mexico on Sunday announced the opening of an international tender to build a high-speed passenger train linking Mexico City and the industrial city of Queretaro.

The project, which was previously estimated to cost about $3.3 billion, would allow travel over the 210 kilometers (130 miles) between the Mexican capital and Queretaro at up to 300 kph, moving 23,000 passengers a day, Mexico's transport ministry said in a statement.

The ministry gave no price estimate, adding that work would begin this year and operations would start in the second half of 2017.

The ministry said it expects the project to create 20,000 direct jobs and take 18,000 passenger cars off the road.

Bombardier Inc, the world's biggest train manufacturer, will likely bid on the project, the company's Mexico chief said last year.

Markus Mildner, executive vice president of Siemens Mexico , has said the German industrial conglomerate is also interested in bidding on rail projects.

Last year, the Mexican government said it would tender three train projects, including the Mexico City-Queretaro line, worth a combined 97 billion pesos ($7.5 billion).

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/27/mexico-train-idUSL2N0Q20LD20140727


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Any ideas who is most likely to bid for this? There are several competing technologies to consider.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

Alstom, China North Locomotive and Rolling Stock Industry (CNR), Compañía Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF), Siemens, Mitsubishi and Bombardier will be bidding for this train.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Let me remember to you guys that all studies are already done, is 100% public funding, environmental impact study approved, feasibility study approved.
So the stage we are now is only waiting for the proposals from international consortiums and in October 15th we have a winner and a date to begin the construction (next day of the signature of the contract). The tender is integral, it means everything is in a single proposal, from supply, construction and commissioning of a high speed railway; rolling stock; equipment and systems and other components of the project.


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## billfranklin (Jan 28, 2007)

KingNick said:


> Nothing scientific about km/h and I explained to you, why it doesn't make any sense. The fact that a big number of people think that this is the apropriate way of writing does not change this fact. And the metric parts of NA are scientists who use km/h.


Most of my Mexican American friends have told me that no matter where their family roots are, that there are two Mexicos: Greater Mexico City and the rest of the country. This has remained true since the late 17th Century.

Mexico City is a world class city that has dealt extremely well with horrific population growth via it's transportation network. Today, as a result of determined political action by the City's intelligentsia, Mexico is seriously planning HSR and higher speed express commuter lines.

Currently, the City is experiencing a burst of creative genius on par with Sao Paulo or Shanghai.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Donegal said:


> Alstom, China North Locomotive and Rolling Stock Industry (CNR), Compañía Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF), Siemens, Mitsubishi and Bombardier will be bidding for this train.


That would be just for rolling stock I assume. Almost everybody capable of such projects. Are we missing anyone at all? Italians I guess, but they haven't had much success abroad in recent years.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^those are the enterprises that already expressed their will to participate, no italian or korean company yet.


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## jonasry (Feb 6, 2011)

elekto,

Glad to see they're following the already existing railway as much as possible. Seems the only logic thing to do.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

jonasry said:


> elekto,
> 
> Glad to see they're following the already existing railway as much as possible. Seems the only logic thing to do.


Exactly; this project has been around for a long, but this is the first time that a budget and an environmental and feasibility studies are approved. In the documents (made public recently) you can see the other options they analyzed past years and even when the logical approach was to follow the existing rail since the beginning, the solutions they developed for several areas of the track (specially for the coexistence of the suburban and HST) are pretty smart, efficient and less expensive than those of the past, meanwhile the new Buenavista Station was built and the new railway rights were acquired.


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## kam4rade (Dec 6, 2007)

Sunfuns said:


> It will be a bit ironic if Mexico being the poorest of the big three countries in North America is indeed the first to build a true high speed rail.


Well... Mexico is not exctly a poor country. Its Gross Domestic Product (by Purchasing Power Parity) is bigger than canadian. The 10th in the world.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

GDP per capita is what counts, otherwise India is a rich country too…

Maybe it's easier to get big public projects approved in Mexico. In US and Canada it's very difficult therefore no HSR so far.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^it depends, the HSR is something the public opinion in Mexico has been demanding for a decade or so.

Mexican roads are terribly congestioned and lots of accidents, specially in the regions on which this new train projects are being developed.


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

The Mexico City - Queretaro makes a lot of sense as a starter line for an eventual Mexico City - Monterrey HSR line.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

FM 2258 said:


> The Mexico City - Queretaro makes a lot of sense as a starter line for an eventual Mexico City - Monterrey HSR line.


Monterrey is above the optimum distance for HSR. Guadalajara would make more sense as the first long line and it could also run through Queretaro.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

indeed, I see more feasible that Monterrey start a line to interconnect with San Antonio as they are researching now.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

*HST will share the rails of the actual suburban train for about 27km only, with non stop at any station.*


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)




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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)




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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)




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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)




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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

*Short story of the High Speed Rail in Mexico*

2002 President Fox ordered a feasibility study on the construction of a HSR from Mexico City-Guadalajara.

2003 President Fox signed the agreement on which a suburban train will be developed in the Mexico City metropolitan area.

2004 Feasibility study for a Mexico City-Guadalajara HSR is not approved due to costs ($12 billlions)

2006 President Calderon rebuilds Buenavista station in order to harbor the suburban train and a future high speed train.

2008 Suburban Train begins operations.

2012 Presidential candidate Lopez Obrador proposes a HSR network.

2012 Old feasibility studies retook by President Peña in order to update them.

2013 President Peña orders a new feasibility study and environmental study for a Mexico City-Queretaro 1st stage.

2014 Environmental and feasibility studies approved, a budget of $4.5 billions approved from public funds.

2014 July-August, the convocatory for a tender is made public.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

*Queretaro provisory station*

As this is only the 1st phase of a Mexico City-Guadalajara HSR, this is an interim station. Eventually it will be located in a more convenient zone of the city.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

elekto said:


>


Not bad at all, about in line with other routes of similar length elsewhere. By the way how many intermediate stations are proposed?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> Not bad at all, about in line with other routes of similar length elsewhere. By the way how many intermediate stations are proposed?



none, is direct from Buenavista to Queretaro station in order to really achieve the speeds and times required to be economically feasible.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

elekto said:


> none, is direct from Buenavista to Queretaro station in order to really achieve the speeds and times required to be economically feasible.


Is that really smart? I don't know the geography there so perhaps not many live in the middle, but otherwise it would have been possible to have 1-2 intermediate stations and run both an express service achieving the times listed and also a slightly slower service (+10-20 min) serving few more places.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^perhaps, although there are 2 small picturesque towns of about 200,000 inhabitants (San Juan del Rio and Tula), only the former one is important enough so authorities said they will enable a suburban train to connect it later.

By the other side, Queretaro is a big industrial city, hub of the aerospace industry in Latin America, plus an important research centre in everything related to automotive engineering and aeronautics.

Queretaro is not only geographically perfect to become the HSR hub for the center-north of Mexico, plus is one of the most important cities in the country actually.


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## Gatech12 (Feb 6, 2013)

Queretaro is actually one of the most prosperous cities of Mexico!


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

_"The bidding rules for the project were published on July 25, the secretariat said, adding that the high-speed train would be part of an integrated transportation system designed to link the capital with the Bajio region in central Mexico.

The winning bidder will be required to sign a joint public works contract covering the design, construction, supply and operations of the project, the secretariat said.

The official international call for bids will take place on Aug. 15 and will be open to all firms interested in constructing the system."_



*Train characteristics required:*

_Structure: Aluminum
Max speed: 350 km/h
Seats: 404/405 per unit
Total power on wheels: >8.000 kW
Breaking: regenerative, rheostat and pneumatic
Braking distance (320 to 0 km/h): 3900m
Acceleration (0 to 320 km/h): <400s
Signaling systems: ERTMS 1&2, ASFA
Total length of the train: 200m
Width: 2.950m
Height: 3.890m_


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## RicardoNolazcoC (Jan 3, 2014)

It would be indeed the beggining of a HSR network throughout Mexico. The next step would be to connect "El Bajío" which includes León (Population: 1.8 million), Silao (173,000), Irapuato and Salamanca (800,000), Celaya (468,000) and Querétaro (1 million), and maybe then Guadalajara and Monterrey.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

> Mexico City, Aug 4 (EFE).- The high-speed Mexico City-Queretaro train, which will cover the 210-kilometer (130-mile) route at a speed of 300 kph (186 mph), will be the first of its kind in Latin America, the Communications and Transportation Secretariat said.
> 
> The train will carry 23,000 passengers per day "safely, quickly, comfortably and in an environmentally friendly way," the secretariat said in a statement.
> 
> ...


Tren de alta velocidad México-Querétaro, primero en su género en América


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## BrickellResidence (Feb 4, 2008)

Finally, this will make my trip to Queretaro easier (I travel to Queretaro from Mexico City annually)


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

I find great that the 100% of the mexican HSR will be ERTMS since the beginning


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## RicardoNolazcoC (Jan 3, 2014)

This is what I've been hoping for! Trains are one of the fastest and most reliable means of transportation.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

The other HSR project in Mexico is the *Transpeninsular Train*, that will run from the city of Merida to Cancun, through the mayan archaeological sites and mayan riviera resorts.










This project is belated due to a reconsideration of the route; there was an environmental study in process, but now they are making a new one due to the change of route.

The tender was programmed for this year also.

It will be most probably a train of 230km/h max speed.












> In planning of the Transpeninsular Train was considered that the architectural aspect plays a major role, as amended customs infrastructure mobility and quality of life of the population.
> 
> Therefore, in the "Descriptive Technical Report for Civil Works Building" dated November 2013 three options for "docking stations" taking into account pre-Hispanic Mayan and colonial concepts were created.
> 
> ...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

So they are considering usage of the same train as the one that was implied
in the spanish rail catastrophy of last year ? Even if the primary responsability
of this accident remains with the driver, there are still heavy suspictions that
the design of this power car seriously contributed to the derailment...


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

MarcVD said:


> So they are considering usage of the same train as the one that was implied in the spanish rail catastrophy of last year ? Even if the primary responsibility of this accident remains with the driver, *there are still heavy suspicions that the design of this power car seriously contributed to the derailment...*


I haven't heard that anywhere. The train was taking the curve at almost twice the design speed. I bet any train would have derailed under those circumstances. It was a combination of human error and improper signalling design. Spanish probably have some inbuilt advantage in another Spanish speaking country.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> So they are considering usage of the same train as the one that was implied
> in the spanish rail catastrophy of last year ? Even if the primary responsability
> of this accident remains with the driver


Actually, the safety system on that part of the track was seriously lacking. Even a sleeping driver should not have been able to cause this accident, had the proper safety system been in place.

Then there is of course the driver who was confused because of the many tunnels, etc. But the type of train? No idea what that had to do with it.


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

MarcVD said:


> So they are considering usage of the same train as the one that was implied
> in the spanish rail catastrophy of last year ? Even if the primary responsability
> of this accident remains with the driver, there are still heavy suspictions that
> the design of this power car seriously contributed to the derailment...


Uninformed comment is uninformed. It had everything to do with speed, nothing todo with the actual train set.

The driver was distracted, there was improper signalling, and there was no automatic train control system to keep the train from going 180km/h in an 80km/h zone.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

yeah it was a problem of the implementation of the ERTMS in that part of the track plus and mostly a human error by the engineer.

Now, that trainset perfectly meets the requirements for (and only) the _*TT*_ (*Transpeninsular Train*), because in the 1st phase the railway is not going to be electrified, so in order to reduce costs an hybrid trainset such as the S/130h can be ready for the eventual upgrade of the line. It doesn't mean that is the already selected train, of course if Alstom or whoever offer us something similar at an affordably cost will be very appreciated


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

by the way in respect of the *MQ HSR* (_*Mexico-Queretaro HSR*_), everything points that Bombardier or Siemens will win the bid, unless CAF has something to say and offer us something like this (at an affordable price of course) 

*CAF Oaris 350km/h*


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Are Japanese not serious contenders here or you just think a European based system would be more appropriate for Mexico?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> Are Japanese not serious contenders here or you just think a European based system would be more appropriate for Mexico?


There are many reasons, one of them is that Bombardier and Siemens have been around this project since several years ago and both have expertise in the mexican market, another reason is that japanese as well as french use to be more expensive; the spaniards due to cultural links have some sort of advantage, but they use to sell us outdated rolling stock in every project they win (of course cheaper than anyone else). Bombardier and Siemens are the 2 more enthusiast contenders since the announcement of huge investment in this, making official statements all the time. Chinese president came to Mexico and told president Peña that China is ready to compete, thus this would be the 1st time we adventure with chinese in any kind of rail project if they win. Due to NAFTA mexican enterprises are used to work with canadians no matter cultural differences.

Personally I believe that European, Japanese or Chinese system are technically adequate for Mexico, so this decision will be mainly taken in relation of costs and politics.

Is important to note that, as this is only the beginning of a HSR network in the country, whoever wins is going to assure a huge market in the american continent.

Bombardier has promised a plant in Ciudad Sahagun to manufacture high speed trains to provide The Americas market if they win.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

elekto said:


> Is important to note that, as this is only the beginning of a HSR network in the country, whoever wins is going to assure a huge market in the american continent.


An advantage for sure, but I don't think any one manufacturer will be able to corner the entire market. More important is what kind of standards are chosen. I think European and Chinese would be compatible with each other later on, but Japanese might not be.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> An advantage for sure, but I don't think any one manufacturer will be able to corner the entire market. More important is what kind of standards are chosen. I think European and Chinese would be compatible with each other later on, but Japanese might not be.


good point, interoperability between European and Chinese standards are possible.

it is possible that what happens in the automotive and aerospace industry in Mexico will happen in the high speed rail sector with a possible scenario on which a couple of manufacturers open their plants here to serve our market and the rest of The Americas.

if high speed trains would ever conquer the American continent, there is no other country with the capacity and quality to manufacture the trainsets at more competitive prices than Mexico.

otherwise high speed trains manufactured by japanese, french, spaniard or german workers and shipped through oceans will be unaffordable even for the United States.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

elekto said:


> if high speed trains would ever conquer the American continent, there is no other country with the capacity and quality to manufacture the trainsets at more competitive prices than Mexico.


There is currently a law in US which mandates that trains and trams should be assembled and certain percentage of components manufactured in US to be eligible for federal funding. I think they'll continue to protect their market, but factories in Mexico for assembling trains for the local market and for manufacturing certain components are likely anyway. That's why I wrote earlier that Spanish companies have some advantage. It ought to be easier for them to establish subsidiaries in Mexico and hire the right people.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Spam King said:


> Uninformed comment is uninformed. It had everything to do with speed, nothing todo with the actual train set.
> 
> The driver was distracted, there was improper signalling, and there was no automatic train control system to keep the train from going 180km/h in an 80km/h zone.


I beg to differ, and I'm not alone. The video of the derailment shows clearly
that the diesel power cars were the first to get off the rails, and probably
took the rest of the train with them. And it's perfectly understandable, given
that these cars have their center of gravity much higher than the other talgo
cars. If they had not been there, the train might not have derailed at all. I do
not disagree with the fact that excessive speed, combined with insufficient 
signalling, are the root cause of the accident. I'm just saying, along with other
sources (Latest edition of Today's railways Europe, for example) that the 
presence of those power cars were an aggravating factor.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I didn't know almost anything about the transpeninsular project. It would be awesome if were a HSR too. I'm not familiar with that term ERTMS. Could anybody explain what it stands for?


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

elekto said:


> I agree although is only to give us an idea of what you said.
> 
> In any case chinese costs are way lower than any other competitor, just as an example, Alstom average *€23 million per km*, thats unaffordable for a country like Mexico.


French labour, French land acquisitions costs etc. If Alstom end up bidding for it alone or in a consortium I bet the price will be closer to 10 million per km (similar to Spanish prices). 

Chinese would be unbeatable if you allow them to build it with Chinese labour. That's kind of a "banana republic" style though and has numerous long term drawbacks.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> French labour, French land acquisitions costs etc. If Alstom end up bidding for it alone or in a consortium I bet the price will be closer to 10 million per km (similar to Spanish prices).
> 
> Chinese would be unbeatable if you allow them to build it with Chinese labour. That's kind of a "banana republic" style though and has numerous long term drawbacks.


I hope so, btw spanish and french have been very quiet as well as japanese.

I know germans will do the try, they will try to match the chinese with a good enough offer, they know that in emerging countries will be difficult to compete with such 1st world prices.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

French are currently building in Morocco and Spanish in Saudi Arabia. Don't know what the costs are for them there, but they do have experience of doing it outside the home market.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> French are currently building in Morocco and Spanish in Saudi Arabia. Don't know what the costs are for them there, but they do have experience of doing it outside the home market.


In *Morocco* the expected cost is around *$7 million per km*, maybe because is all flat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangier-Kenitra_high-speed_rail_line

In *Saudi Arabia* around *$20 million per km*, maybe because is all luxury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haramain_High_Speed_Rail_Project


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

$7 million per km is very cheap, probably will be a bit more in Mexico due to labor costs and a bit more challenging geography.

Saudi's probably care about price a bit less and are going for all the premium stuff. I've heard though that protection against sandstorms and extreme heat is a significant cost driver.


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

Sunfuns said:


> $7 million per km is very cheap, probably will be a bit more in Mexico due to labor costs and a bit more challenging geography.
> 
> Saudi's probably care about price a bit less and are going for all the premium stuff. I've heard though that protection against sandstorms and extreme heat is a significant cost driver.


Sunfuns, I don't know if you have been in western Saudi Arabia, but I have. It's not the kind of "gentle dessert" that you have in the western Sahara. - It's dessert, for sure, but consisting of barren mountains sticking up like jagged teeth. Here's a sample: http://nidalm.com/blog/travelography/the-mountains-of-makkah/. No doubt that's part of the reason for the construction costs. 

As for the French being "competitive" because they made it to Morocco, well... don't make me smirk. There's a tiny little post-colonial link there. Plus, project finance and other sweeteners were put on offer. I don't think that anybody OTHER than the French could have got their foot in that particular door.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

hans280 said:


> Sunfuns, I don't know if you have been in eastern Saudi Arabia, but I have. It's not the kind of "gentle dessert" that you have in the western Sahara. - It's dessert, for sure, but consisting of barren mountains sticking up like jagged teeth. Here's a sample: http://nidalm.com/blog/travelography/the-mountains-of-makkah/. No doubt that's part of the reason for the construction costs.
> 
> As for the French being "competitive" because they made it to Morocco, well... don't make me smirk. There's a tiny little post-colonial link there. Plus, project finance and other sweeteners were put on offer. I don't think that any body OTHER than the French could have got their foot in that particular door.


so, do you believe the french can make a good bid to Mexico?

Im also surprised of such cheap cost in Morocco, never seen Alstom that low.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> The first clarification meeting took place last Monday, the next will be on Monday, September 8.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Seems next month we will have a date for the Transpeninsular Train *TT* HSR tender.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

.edit


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

k.k.jetcar said:


> Mexico should take heed with the experience of other countries who took the lowball bid, namely the Philippines with the Northrail Project (cancelled) and the Turkey HSR project (numerous delays and teething problems).


Dont know anything about Philippines but about Turkey, I know. The delays have absolutely nothing to do with "cost" of the projects.


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## Legomaniac (Jun 30, 2012)

elekto said:


> Seems next month we will have a date for the Transpeninsular Train *TT* HSR tender.


Sorry, i haven't followed this thread much, but I thought there was nothing official regarding this project? The reason why I say that its because it wasn't announced in Peña Nieto's event yesterday.

so is it safe to say that this project is alive?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Legomaniac said:


> Sorry, i haven't followed this thread much, but I thought there was nothing official regarding this project? The reason why I say that its because it wasn't announced in Peña Nieto's event yesterday.
> 
> so is it safe to say that this project is alive?


Yes the *TT HSR* is alive, officially the environmental feasibility study was postponed since the route was changed. Instead of Punta Venado it was changed to Cancun as 2nd terminal.

A new environmental study is being developed right now contemplating the new route, maybe soon we will know if it was approved or not, probably next month.


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

foxmulder said:


> Dont know anything about Philippines but about Turkey, I know. The delays have absolutely nothing to do with "cost" of the projects.


why the delays in Turkey?


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> first days of *November winning bidder* of *MQ HSR*
> 
> Audio (in spanish min 3:17)


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> pre-construction budget approved *U$130 millions*


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> today in the 2nd clarification meeting *CARSO group and ICA in the same consortium*.
> *Alstom in a different one, while IAMSA, CAF and Indra joins in a 3rd consortium.*



so we have 2 fully conformed consortiums and 2 more to officialize.

1.-*CRCC, Teya group, GIA*
2.-*CAF, Indra Systems, IAMSA group*

Alstom to lead another.
CARSO group and ICA to confirm with Bombardier or Siemens.


----------



## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

elekto said:


> why the delays in Turkey?


Turkey is a very polarized country politically right now. Partisans, who didn't want to current administration to benefit politically from these high speed rails, sabotaged some lines multiple times before the elections. 

By the way most of Turkish lines are built by Chinese. However, Chinese are just subcontractors of the local Turkish companies who won the bids claiming the lines are built by themselves. You can see Chinese railroad builders working on the catenaries etc. It is quite bad for tax payer because this approach is, obviously, increasing the price compared to direct Chinese undertaking.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

foxmulder said:


> Turkey is a very polarized country politically right now. Partisans, who didn't want to current administration to benefit politically from these high speed rails, sabotaged some lines multiple times before the elections.
> 
> By the way most of Turkish lines are built by Chinese. However, Chinese are just subcontractors of the local Turkish companies who won the bids claiming the lines are built by themselves. You can see Chinese railroad builders working on the catenaries etc. It is quite bad for tax payer because this approach is, obviously, increasing the price compared to direct Chinese undertaking.


humm, mismanagement and political prioritization, bad formula for any project.

yeah it only makes it more expensive and bureaucratic, now I see.


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Donegal said:


> Ok, just wait for canadians. We can make it on time (I... I think)


no problem, they requested a month or so, thats ok


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> China Development Bank, the Bank of China and the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China will participate in a fund with mexican counterparts to *finance the MQ HSR*​


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I don't know.. There's much more experience building HSR in Japan and Europe


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

^^

China seems to be doing an excellent job at it though. I wish China could come and build a U.S. High Speed railway infrastructure.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Donegal said:


> I don't know.. There's much more experience building HSR in Japan and Europe


the problem is that japanese seems not interested on develop HSR in Mexico, they are more interested in California or Texas  and of the europeans only spanish and germans took this seriously.

let's wait to see what happen, but the chinese are taking every right step to win this bid so far.


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## megaroad1 (Sep 7, 2014)

Thanks for the info Elekto. 

Not to mention that the China-Mexico relationship has really improved since Calderon left power. The Chinese had been absent from investing in Mexico for years, but that's all changing now. There's even talk of a common investment fund for infrastructure projects in Mexico. The Chinese bid has strong political and economic backing.


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

What happen to the big announcement schedule for today Oct. 2nd 2014????


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^what announcement?


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

Isn't today when they announcement the winner of the contract. 

Also the design of the fleet and everything else?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Fern~Fern* said:


> Isn't today when they announcement the winner of the contract.
> 
> Also the design of the fleet and everything else?


no, the deadline for presenting the bids is October 15th so far and we are waiting since there are consortiums requesting more time.

if everything continue on tracks, at beginning of november we have a winner and in december construction starts.



> Last friday *September 12th* was the* third and final clarification meeting* of the tender of the MQ HSR. The SCT, who commands Gerardo Ruiz Esparza, completed the process despite some disagreements concerned requesting that the process be extended to 240 days from the basis of 180 days. However, *the receipt of bids is maintained for October 15th*.
> 
> In advance the provider of rolling stock that is outlined *with ICA*, which handles Alonso Quintana, is *the German Siemens*, while *Carso of Carlos Slim discusses to join with the french Alstom*, confirming the dissolution of the team that built the Metro Line 12 in Mexico City. Meanwhile,* Bombardier*, directed by Alfredo Nolasco *negotiates with IAMSA*.





> *Studies for the 2nd stage already done*, the extension to Celaya, Irapuato, Guadalajara and Leon.
> 
> *62 participants registered.*
> 
> ...



lets be patient, all is going very good


----------



## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

FM 2258 said:


> ^^
> 
> China seems to be doing an excellent job at it though. I wish China could come and build a U.S. High Speed railway infrastructure.


This is quite handy as a tool to further China's neocolonial advances too


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> *China Railway Construction Corporation will present its bid on October 15th*, so the other companies of the caliber of Siemens, ICA, Alstom, Bombardier, CAF and Indra and Thales, refine alliances to try to compete with the Asian giant. It could be that the president Enrique Peña Nieto during his visit to China next November 12th announce as winner of the Mexico-Queretaro High Speed Rail to the Chinese firm.
> 
> Link


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sopomon said:


> This is quite handy as a tool to further China's neocolonial advances too


but why Japan never presented a consortium to compete for this project?


----------



## megaroad1 (Sep 7, 2014)

Interesting elekto, thanks.

It seems that the momentum is clearly on the Chinese bids side.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

We must seize the momentum. In this kind of projects if you dont take the momentum, the project dies.

Next year there are elections in Mexico and if this project is belated, im sure is not going to be done and would become politically and economically unfeasible in 1 year.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

elekto said:


> Next year there are elections in Mexico and if this project is belated, im sure is not going to be done and would become politically and economically unfeasible in 1 year.


Politically you probably know better, but why would economic feasibility change in just one year? That seems unlikely.


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> Politically you probably know better, but why would economic feasibility change in just one year? That seems unlikely.


right now there are currency turbulences and the peso is being depreciated which makes the importation of this technology more expensive; at same time soon wages will be uprising, that is another factor that will make the construction more expensive.

There are many other infrastructure projects ongoing in Mexico right now, as the new airport, more trains, etc, so the competition for funds in next year's budget will be wild.

Is urgent we have the contracts signed.


----------



## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

elekto said:


> info:


That's a nice photo. By any chance you may have a higher resolution?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^sadly not


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

by now seems Bombardier is out of the competition also.

Seems that the spanish are the only ones that will face the chinese in this tender.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

elekto said:


> _"The bidding rules for the project were published on July 25, the secretariat said, adding that the high-speed train would be part of an integrated transportation system designed to link the capital with the Bajio region in central Mexico.
> 
> The winning bidder will be required to sign a joint public works contract covering the design, construction, supply and operations of the project, the secretariat said.
> 
> ...



CRH3C
Structure: Aluminum
Max speed: 350km/h
Seats 556
Total power on wheels: 8.800 kW
Total length of the train: 200m
Width: 3.265m
Height: 3.890m
Track gauge 1.435m
Built by *CNR Tangshan Railway Vehicle* with some components from Germany


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> *SCT ruled out the applications that Alstom and Bombardier requested in order to delay the bid of the MQ HSR up to 200 more days*, and at the same time reaffirmed the importance of complying with the terms of the contest.
> 
> Therefore, *there will be no going back on the construction of the High Speed Train Mexico-Queretaro*, which is the first project of its kind to be built in Latin America, so it must start operations in 2017.
> 
> Link



President Peña is very upset.


----------



## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

What does this all mean? I am confused. And why would President Pena be upset about this? Please explain.


----------



## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

I am hoping for CAF to win the bid, it's good to have an underdog snapping at the heels of the big 3 and Chinese to keep them on their toes. As for China, I wonder that _if_ they win the bid, that this will open possibilites of copyright (?) violations, as their designs are derivatives of Big 3 and Kawasaki high speed designs- typically technology transfer agreements include a clause that prohibits selling of such transfered technology to export markets. Should the Chinese go ahead, and I believe they will as it is their M.O., will those makers sit on their hands for fear of losing future business to the Chinese?


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

victor209 said:


> What does this all mean? I am confused. And why would President Pena be upset about this? Please explain.


In the link is explained in spanish but basically because Alstom has been making irresponsible declarations and requesting with insistence more time without giving technical explanations of why. The main problem with Alstom is that they built the Mexico City Metro Line 12 that was inaugurated in 2012 and as for today the line is not working, have had several problems and will be repaired by the end of 2015! it is a huge scandal here and Alstom have been more interested on doing politics than on getting ready to compete. They have even menaced on abandoning Mexico if they dont win the HSR, pff!

Personally Im dissapointed of Bombardier who is taking the place of a victim because of chinese participation. If there was a company that has been invited to this project since years ago is Bombardier, but never moved a finger to get ready, although they always said there had everything ready.

There are more open tenders, like the Mexico-Toluca Intercity, and the chinese are not allowed to participate there because is only for the countries with free trade agreements with Mexico. I hope Bombardier take seriously this tender and stop saying "Esta en Chino".


----------



## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

elekto said:


> but why Japan never presented a consortium to compete for this project?


I have seen no mention of this project in the domestic press here. Perhaps the terms are not attractive, they see something fishy with the process, or as you mention, and probably the most likely, the Japanese firms are in the Western hemisphere concentrating on the U.S. market such as the CA HSR project (JR East + Kawasaki) and Texas (the private Texas Central Rlwy project backed by JR Central and its subsidiary Nippon Sharyo). The other big trainmaker, Hitachi Rail, is concentrating on Europe and especially the challenging UK IEP programme.


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

edit.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

k.k.jetcar said:


> I have seen no mention of this project in the domestic press here. Perhaps the terms are not attractive, they see something fishy with the process, or as you mention, and probably the most likely, the Japanese firms are in the Western hemisphere concentrating on the U.S. market such as the CA HSR project (JR East + Kawasaki) and Texas (the private Texas Central Rlwy project backed by JR Central and its subsidiary Nippon Sharyo). The other big trainmaker, Hitachi Rail, is concentrating on Europe and especially the challenging UK IEP programme.


personally I am glad that Japan will get the California HSR, the only problem will be interoperability with future cross border initiatives 

btw prince and princess Akishino arrived Mexico City today, seems there will be business after all kay:


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

I live in Los Angeles California, and the sad thing is I'll have a bigger chance to see a high speed rail before my eyes in Mexico than here. I believe it is the year 2029 when the California high speed rail will be up and running. :/


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

Is China bidding with CRH380A or CRH380C?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

C


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

Whats the difference with A & C?????


----------



## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

elekto said:


> ...
> Signaling systems: ERTMS 1&2, ASFA...


Why have to carry the Spanish backup system ASFA?
Not me angry, is that surprises me. 

Indeed, a little nuance, I think it is more correct to write "ETCS 1" / 2, the explanation (in Spanish) here:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETCS
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/ERTMS

...............................
The CRH380A is manufactured by CSR Sifang and derived from CRH2A, derived from Kawasaki E2.
The CRH380C is manufactured by CNR Changchun, derived from CRH380B, derived from CRH3C (Velaro CN), but no longer participates Siemens if not Hitachi.
More (with pictures, but in spanish):
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alta_Velocidad_ferroviaria_en_China


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

It is a shame. I really expected a duel between the Bombardier Zefiro and the Alstom AGV. If there's no chance for the shinkansen to be selected (as Elektro said before), my only hope is that Siemens wins the bid.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Gusiluz said:


> Why have to carry the Spanish backup system ASFA?
> Not me angry, is that surprises me.


thanks Gusiluz, I suppose that they mean ASFA or equivalent :dunno:


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Donegal said:


> It is a shame. I really expected a duel between the Bombardier Zefiro and the Alstom AGV. If there's no chance for the shinkansen to be selected (as Elektro said before), my only hope is that Siemens wins the bid.


indeed Siemens still has something to say 

about Shinkansen, lets be honest, Mexico cant afford such a system, in California the project is around $80million/km


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

elekto said:


> personally I am glad that Japan will get the California HSR, the only problem will be interoperability with future cross border initiatives


Why would there be any issue?


----------



## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

The first train itself is the *Zefiro **380.*

The second photo is of a train could not move from the model, and that was in 2010.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/alstom-extends-high-speed-train-family.html 

I think it is the germ of what they wanted to call "le *TGV du futur*" and still not have a body, although he has had several. 

The AGV, pretty ugly, is this:
https://www.google.es/images?q=alstom+train+AGV&hl=es&gbv=2&tbm=isch&oq=&gs_l= 

And the third is the *ICE 3*, which was still involved ADtranz, now part of Bombardier. 
Are now presenting is the Velaro D: 
https://www.google.es/images?q=siem..._group&ei=Kw00VLOpE-zd7QbqyYGgAg&ved=0CBQQsAQ


Donegal said:


> It is a shame. I really expected a duel between the Bombardier Zefiro and the Alstom AGV. If there's no chance for the shinkansen to be selected (as Elektro said before), my only hope is that Siemens wins the bid.


----------



## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I agree, the AGV is ugly. The bombardier's looks awesome.
The velaro looks good too. Maybe not soo cool as the zefiro, but i really like it too.


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Spam King said:


> Why would there be any issue?


whatever system we choose in Mexico, the gauge and the tension will be compatible with the N700 of California, but safety systems wont and if in Texas they choose Shinkansen also in an eventual cross border with Monterrey, the mexican part should choose japanese technology too, making it uncompatible with the rest of Mexico's network.


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## flankerjun (Oct 7, 2013)

megaroad1 said:


> The CRH380D looks almost identical to the Zefiro. Can the Chinese really offer that train when it's a co-production with Bombardier? Aren't there some tehchnology license issues there?
> 
> The deadline is the day after tomorrow. We've heard little from the Siemens and the CAF bids. I hope that it's just a case of keeping their cards close to their vests and not that they're not thinking of delivering a proposal. I want a competitive adjudication process.


LOL,CRH380D is the train that made in bombardier's China factory,and it has no technology transfer.and it is the same train with zefiro380.


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## flankerjun (Oct 7, 2013)

The reason why Bombardier release Zefiro 380 is to meet the demand of China Ministry of Railways in 2009.CRH380D is Chinese name.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

CRH380D is the original Zefiro 380 only manufactured in China, like a japanese car manufactured in Mexico thats all.

If Bombardier CSR Sifang joins the CRCC consortium, legally there is not a problem, no license issues at all and eventually the trainset could be manufactured by Bombardier Mexico although not 100%, maybe only some components, like we do with planes so far.

If Bombardier Mexico had presented a bid with the Zefiro 380 and had won, surely they had bring the Zefiro 380 from China factory.

In China today many originals of everything are made, not only the copies.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Donegal said:


> I'm kinda skeptical about the chinese proposal. I mean, cheaper is not always better.


About the civil works CRCC is the most competitive in the world and experienced, only OHL from Spain have the same capacity.

About the rolling stock the best options in order of quality in my opinion are:

1.- CRH380D
2.- CRH380C

if they bid one of those, the quality for the money is very competitive and convenient.



















those are the HST that match with the requirements and without legal issues, unless chinese had already developed an unknown model, that in any case would have not been even in testing phase.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

If CAF bids the only train that can offer us is this:










brand new, just out from the testing phase.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

latest information signaling a consortium led by *SIEMENS, ICA and FCCCO* to make a bid.

while im glad that SIEMENS participate since probably is the best option about rolling stock, the mexicans ICA and FCCCO have built 0km of High Speed Line ever, so in the aspect of civil works is the weakest consortium.

the spanish one with *CAF, Indra and OHL* is more equilibrated, while the chinese have the best cost and competitive builder but not quite good rolling stock.

at this point the civil work is the most important aspect, since is the 1st line ever made here and there is no experience in Mexico, plus... time = costs.

civil works are over the model of the train in importance, if not remember Metro Line 12.


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

I cannot wait to see Mexico's train in action....:carrot:


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

BREAKING NEWS



> _"The *CRH380A* model, capable of a speed of 400 km/h, *is the considered* by the company *for the Mexican bid*. Although develops that speed, its commercial operation is between 250km/h and 300km/h."_
> 
> _Zhenyi Hu, Vice president of China Railways Construction Corporation_
> 
> Link





















Structure: Aluminum
Max speed: 380km/h
Seats: 494
Total power on wheels: 9.600 kW
Total length of the train: 203m
Width: 3.380m
Height: 3.700m
Track gauge 1.435m
Built by *CSR*​


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

^^ Nobody knows what it costs CRH380C, only built CRH380CL with 16 cars; the CRH380D itself: 20,51 M €. The CRH380A with technology discussed by Kawasaki: 19,65/18,59 M €. The CRH3C (Siemens Velaro CN): 22,7/20,5 M €.
The important will be: contracts manufactured locally, maintenance, and transfer of technology.
.............................
Nadie sabe lo que cuesta el CRH380C, solo hay CRH380CL de 16 coches; el CRH380D sí: 20,51 M €. El CRH380A con tecnología discutida por Kawasaki: 19,65/18,59 M €. El CRH3C (Siemens Velaro CN): 22,7/20,5 M €.
Lo decisorio serán los contratos de fabricación local, mantenimiento y transferencia de tecnología.


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## megaroad1 (Sep 7, 2014)

Wow. The 380A. I didn’t expect that they’d bring something that fast for their Mexico bid. The Chinese are going all in on this one. I wonder how it will look in red, white and green, LOL.

I’m surprised that Siemens didn’t bring another company to help with the construction/civil works. Maybe ICA is very confident that they can pull this off? 

The Spanish bid looks sound. 

I think at the end of the day, the fact that China is working with Mexico on that huge common infrastructure fund to finance rail projects is going to weigh on the final decision, though. Maybe that’s why Alstom and Bombardier pulled out?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^ lol red with the strip in green.

the best train at the best cost, as you say the chinese really want to win this project.















































The model for Hong Kong


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

^^
It's gonne be interesting watching the legal wrangling around that one, as Kawasaki is definitely going to seek a court order of some kind to stop that selling.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

I've read enough about this thanks to Gusiluz links, and the true is that there is nothing illegal on it, Kawasaki as well as many other companies signed weak and ambiguous technology transfer contracts, so the chinese took the best and developed further. Maybe it was unloyal or opportunist, but not illegal certainly. Alstom decided not to enter China, Bombardier and Siemens are ok, after all they provide the huge chinese market, so seems only another chapter of the japanese-chinese misunderstandings and antagonism, but no more.

Prince Akishino came few days ago to Mexico to do business and surely he adverted president Peña about this, but the prince went happy and confident, so Im sure they reached a good agreement on this.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I have just finished reading the article. So HR380A?
Looks nice. Even so, I'd rather siemens wins.



elekto said:


> Prince Akishino came few days ago to Mexico to do business and surely he adverted president Peña about this, but the prince went happy and confident, so Im sure they reached a good agreement on this.


So, does that mean that it is possible to have a japanese proposal? There's any chance to consider a shinkansen for this route? It really would be fantastic.


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)




----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Donegal said:


> So, does that mean that it is possible to have a japanese proposal? There's any chance to consider a shinkansen for this route? It really would be fantastic.


No, that means there won't be problems buying the CRH380A.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

LOL, I knew I shouldn't be excited yet


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Info: 



> Today is the presentation of bids, the *winner* will be declared on *November 3rd.*


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

BREAKING NEWS





> *CRCC, GIA group, Prodemex* and *TEYA* conforms the ONLY consortium presenting its bid today.












> *CAF* desisted because the *Oaris* is *not yet homologated*.
> 
> Link


----------



## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

> Prince Akishino came few days ago to Mexico to do business


If it was business, it was surely private. Members of the imperial family are not involved in diplomatic or business dealings of a transnational nature as their role is purely symbolic. It may actually be prohibited by Japanese law.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

for the mexicans to have an idea:

*Metro Line 12: $72 million/km
Guadalajara Line 3: $64 million/km*


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

If you were to build this high speed line entirely in a tunnel (like metro) the cost would be triple at least.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sunfuns said:


> If you were to build this high speed line entirely in a tunnel (like metro) the cost would be triple at least.


i know right, is only for my fellows to have an idea and the Guadalajara Line 3 is elevated


----------



## Klausenburg (Jul 25, 2007)

Well this is the price before starting the works. They might have some surprises along the route...In the end we will see what will be the real price. But even if they get 4,5-5 bn $ is still very cheap...


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## Klausenburg (Jul 25, 2007)

And keep in mind that in a later stage they want to move the station in Queretaro to a central area of the city. Those few km won't come cheap considering the urban environment...


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

There have been cases elsewhere, usually involving either complicated tunnelling or massive corruption, where the final price of an infrastructure project was triple or quadruple of what was initially promised. Hopefully not the case here.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Klausenburg said:


> And keep in mind that in a later stage they want to move the station in Queretaro to a central area of the city. Those few km won't come cheap considering the urban environment...


thats right but by then is probable that Mexico be economically better than today, at least thats the plan.


----------



## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

So my question is when does the construction begin?

When do we get the fleet deliver?

Is there an official website for the project?

What is the official name of the train corridor?

When does the chief and commander of the republic making it official?


----------



## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

when does the construction begin? the execution of the contract begins February 1st 2015 but the consortium can start operations the day after the signature of the contract.

When do we get the fleet deliver? dont know yet

Is there an official website for the project? probably in December

What is the official name of the train corridor? Mexico-Queretaro High Speed Rail .. a brand name? dont know yet.


----------



## GdlMty (Sep 29, 2013)

What will be the model of the train? Speed?


----------



## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I hope the other bidders don't give up yet. Mexican government hasn't announced a winner. If the chinese proposal don't match the mexican requirements, they could start a new process. That would give some time to the other companies to prepare their proposals.

http://www.cnnexpansion.com/economi...y-unico-interesado-en-el-tren-mexicoqueretaro


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## flankerjun (Oct 7, 2013)

what is the speed?a 250km/h is much cheaper than 350km/h line.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

GdlMty said:


> What will be the model of the train? Speed?


CRH380A, commercial speed in Mexico 300km/h.


----------



## Cosmicbliss (Aug 9, 2009)

So guys, with China and consortium winning the bid, HSR comes to USA's border ? With this, will California and Texas also start on HSR? Too delicious an irony to imagine HSR on the border of the USA.


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## Legomaniac (Jun 30, 2012)

Cosmicbliss said:


> So guys, with China and consortium winning the bid, HSR comes to USA's border ? With this, will California and Texas also start on HSR? Too delicious an irony to imagine HSR on the border of the USA.


There was actually a project going on that wanted to connect Dallas with Monterrey i think; so it isn't far from happening. That project is also fairly recent, probably within the last 6 months.


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## GdlMty (Sep 29, 2013)

elekto said:


> CRH380A, commercial speed in Mexico 300km/h.


If the average speed of this train in China is 380 k/h, why in Mexico can not be like that too?


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I guess it's because there's so few experience with high speed trains in our countries that they are conservative. Like a boy with his new car. He has to feel confident driving it at regular speeds before he can run it at full throttle.


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## flankerjun (Oct 7, 2013)

for the distance no more than 300KM,250KM/H and 300KM/H train almost take the same time.


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

Here I found some information on the subject (in spanish). 
The 59,000 M pesos are the entire contract, including trains, so you can not talk about cost per km. 
The CRH380A trains were designed and approved to run at 380 km/h on the Beijing-Shanghai line, but the change of minister of railways and the consequent change in policy rates and prices now makes all Chinese trains ready for 300 or more moving only 300 km/h (with a small margin to 310). 
Although Mexico has no experience in HS, is no reason to put a speed or another, either USA or Arabia, where the trains will run at 300 km/h. 
According to information gathered so far, the line will be built for 300 km/h, and 12 trains CRH380A be made to the same speed, which means they will be able to run at 330 km/h in order to be approved 300. Commuting time scheduled for 212.18 km is 59 minutes, which means an average speed of 216 km/h, already wanted in Korea (best time: 193), Turkey (204), Italy (207), or the main relations of Germany (Frankfurt-Cologne: 171) or Taiwan; not to mention USA: 169.5 km/h on average between Baltimore and Wilmington, 123 in New York-Washington-Boston and 105 in New York.
..........................................................
Aquí encontré algo de información sobre el tema.
Los 59.000 M de pesos son por todo el contrato, incluyendo los trenes, así que no se puede hablar de coste por km.
Los trenes CRH380A fueron diseñados y homologados para circular a 380 km/h en la línea Beijing-Shanghai, pero el cambio de ministro de ferrocarriles y el consiguiente cambio en la política de velocidades y precios hace que ahora todos los trenes chinos preparados para 300 o más circulen solo a 300 km/h (con un pequeño margen hasta 310).
Aunque Mexico no tenga experiencia en HS, no es motivo para poner una velocidad u otra, USA tampoco, ni Arabia, y allí los trenes circularán a 300 km/h.
Según la información recogida hasta ahora, la línea se construirá para 300 km/h, y los 12 trenes CRH380A se harán para la misma velocidad, lo que significa que tendrán que ser capaces de circular a 330 km/h para poder ser homologados a 300. El tiempo de trayecto previsto para los 212,18 km es de 59 minutos, lo que significa una velocidad media de 216 km/h, que ya quisieran en, Corea (193), Turquía (204), Italia (207), o las principales relaciones de Alemania o Taiwan; por no hablar de USA: 169,5 km/h de media entre Baltimore y Wilmington, 123 en Nueva York-Washington y 105 en Boston-Nueva York.


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

Gusiluz said:


> According to information gathered so far, the line will be built for 300 km/h, and 12 trains CRH380A be made to the same speed, which means they will be able to run at 330 km/h in order to be approved 300. Commuting time scheduled for 212.18 km is 59 minutes, which means an average speed of 216 km/h, already wanted in Korea (best time: 193), Turkey (204), Italy (207), or the main relations of Germany (Frankfurt-Cologne: 171) or Taiwan; not to mention USA: 169.5 km/h on average between Baltimore and Wilmington, 123 in New York-Washington-Boston and 105 in New York.


Gusiluz, apologies for my ignorance but do we know if the average speed of 216 km/h measured from city centre to city centre, or is it assuming some suburban high-speed station in Queretaro? I ask because in the first case this is a truly amazing average speed. On the other hand, if it's between dedicated HS stations then several of the European countries remain competitive.


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

Congrats to Mexico for starting to build the first dedicated HSR line in the Americas.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

China submits only bid for Mexican HS project



> Evaluation of the proposal submitted by the consortium will begin immediately with the aim of concluding the deal by November 3. SCT says it expects construction to start in December and commercial services are due to begin operating in the second half of 2017.


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

What on earth is in that deal to leave everyone but the Chinese with cold feet


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Sopomon said:


> What on earth is in that deal to leave everyone but the Chinese with cold feet


The 1st High Speed Rail in the Americas and a new era of partnership between China and Mexico.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

wow. That is huge news. 3.75 billion $ for 210km construction, rolling stock, signalling, and electromechanical works. I wonder how many train sets is planned to be ordered. Others couldn't even bid?!!? I am not that surprised though. It looks like it is priced really quiet competitive. Even if you think 3 billion of the budget is for the construction of the line, *it is priced less than 15 million $/km*!


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

> The 1st High Speed Rail in the Americas and a new era of partnership between China and Mexico.


 That's definitely /not/ the reason


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

Let me make a_ wild _guess: low cost financing and lowball pricing in exchange for resources.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

foxmulder said:


> wow. That is huge news. 3.75 billion $ for 210km construction, rolling stock, signalling, and electromechanical works. I wonder how many train sets is planned to be ordered. Others couldn't even bid?!!? I am not that surprised though. It looks like it is priced really quiet competitive. Even if you think 3 billion of the budget is for the construction of the line, *it is priced less than 15 million $/km*!


12 trainsets


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

k.k.jetcar said:


> Let me make a_ wild _guess: low cost financing and lowball pricing in exchange for resources.


I don't think so. Mexico is not Venezuela or Brazil. Commodities are not its primary export.

Mexico has been reluctant to large chinese investments, until now. We can't know for sure until november when mexican government will decide on the chinese proposal.


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## megaroad1 (Sep 7, 2014)

Sopomon said:


> What on earth is in that deal to leave everyone but the Chinese with cold feet


Yes, there's the prestige of building the first HSR of the Americas, (and the consequent stages if succesful) but there's also the fact that obviously the Chinese are extremely competitive on price.

But a big part of why I think they got cold feet was the perception of the massive financial support this has at the highest level from the Chinese. They wanted this bad. Chinese banks will give CRCC liquidity that the other companies would be hard pressed to match. 

I also get the feeling, that there is the perception that on a political level, there was a lot of momentum building up between the Chinese and Mexico. Mexico has been a bit of a closed land for the Chinese due to the fact the Mexicans perceive the Chinese as their main competition. This project could conceivably kickstart the economic relationship between the 2. When you see that only some days after acceptance of the bid is announced, the President of Mexico travels to China...well, let's put 2 and 2 together.

It's a real shame that CAF couldn't present a bid. They had a nice train, good partners and a strong presence in Mexico.


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

If Mexico builds the first Latam HSR it will be a great achievement, and also a counterintuitive development. I always thought SP-Rio would be the first, as the case for HSR there is simply huge...


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

megaroad1 said:


> But a big part of why I think they got cold feet was the perception of the massive financial support this has at the highest level from the Chinese. They wanted this bad. Chinese banks will give CRCC liquidity that the other companies would be hard pressed to match.
> .


So essentialy, you're saying that the others gave up as the Chinese bid seemed all but inevitable?


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## megaroad1 (Sep 7, 2014)

Sopomon said:


> So essentialy, you're saying that the others gave up as the Chinese bid seemed all but inevitable?


Not inevitable, but certainly formidable. I think Elekto here once posted a link to a news story on how the head of Bombardier in Mexico had said that with the tiem they had for preparing a bid, it was "in chinese" to be able to win it.

I have no idea how expensive it is for a company to prepare a good bid, but I assume they must pick their battles. I think they should have joined forces and put a bid together. I just think that if the Mexican government accepts the chinese bid, CCRN will be very well positioned to win a lot more upcoming contracts in Mexico and the Americas as a whole. And that's not good for any of those companies (Bombardier, Alstom, CAF etc).


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

megaroad1 said:


> Not inevitable, but certainly formidable. I think Elekto here once posted a link to a news story on how the head of Bombardier in Mexico had said that with the time they had for preparing a bid, it was "in chinese" to be able to win it.


I think this is an essential point. When they tried to offer the prospective Brazilian HSL between Sao Paolo and Rio in bidding Bombardier, the Europeans and the Japanese were also moaning that they could not complete such a project from conception to operations in just four years. I don't know about Japan, but here in Europe these things take closer to 10 years. (And 20 in the U.K.... :nuts 

I wonder why our Latin American friends are in such a hurry? Do they perhaps require projects to be finished within the current presidential election cycle? I also wonder why our Chinese friends are so much faster than their competitors. Sloppy work or toil around the clock?


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

elekto said:


> 12 trainsets


Ok then, the construction will cost more like 3.5 billion which makes cost of each km around 16.5 million $. IMHO, This clearly shows China is not in Mexico for profits. They will either brake even or make a tiny amount of profit since even in China, the cost is about 20 million $. However this is for a line mostly on viaducts and 350km/h not 300km/h and I don't know how much of this Mexican line will be on viaducts. I assume both European and Japanese offer would have been double the Chinese one.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

hans280 said:


> ...................
> I also wonder why our Chinese friends are so much faster than their competitors. Sloppy work or toil around the clock?


I believe, the scale they are building at "home" let them this. I bet they can provide a lot of machinery to Mexico which are already recuperate their cost from the build up in China.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

hans280 said:


> I think this is an essential point. When they tried to offer the prospective Brazilian HSL between Sao Paolo and Rio in bidding Bombardier, the Europeans and the Japanese were also moaning that they could not complete such a project from conception to operations in just four years. I don't know about Japan, but here in Europe these things take closer to 10 years. (And 20 in the U.K.... :nuts
> 
> I wonder why our Latin American friends are in such a hurry? Do they perhaps require projects to be finished within the current presidential election cycle? I also wonder why our Chinese friends are so much faster than their competitors. Sloppy work or toil around the clock?


the chinese have already the executive project done, they have been working on this since 2 years ago, because Mexico invited several firms since then, but the chinese took this seriously, the others not.

Mexico by its part, had already done feasibility studies since 2004 and updated them starting in 2012, so by the beginning of 2014 were done, plus all the railway rights were acquired by the middle of this year.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

foxmulder said:


> Ok then, the construction will cost more like 3.5 billion which makes cost of each km around 16.5 million $. IMHO, This clearly shows China is not in Mexico for profits. They will either brake even or make a tiny amount of profit since even in China, the cost is about 20 million $. However this is for a line mostly on viaducts and 350km/h not 300km/h and I don't know how much of this Mexican line will be on viaducts. I assume both European and Japanese offer would have been double the Chinese one.


is cheaper in China because of the scale of production. 16.5 million/km is just my original assumption but I thought it was 18 until realized not to include trainsets etc..










certainly European or Japanese would be way more expensive, no option for Mexico.



foxmulder said:


> I believe, the scale they are building at "home" let them this. I bet they can provide a lot of machinery to Mexico which are already recuperate their cost from the build up in China.


the machinery is on board of the ships already


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

megaroad1 said:


> I have no idea how expensive it is for a company to prepare a good bid, but I assume they must pick their battles. I think they should have joined forces and put a bid together. I just think that if the Mexican government accepts the chinese bid, CCRN will be very well positioned to win a lot more upcoming contracts in Mexico and the Americas as a whole. And that's not good for any of those companies (Bombardier, Alstom, CAF etc).


There is no reason why all subsequent contracts have to go to the same company. Also I don't think it's in the power for those companies to keep Chinese competitors out of all export markets forever. 

It seems to me as well that others concluded that Chinese winning this is inevitable so no point wasting effort to produce a losing bid.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

elekto said:


> certainly European or Japanese would be way more expensive, no option for Mexico.


Why do you keep saying that? It's just not true. In the table you yourself just posted the Spanish price is only marginally more than the Chinese one. Most likely the difference is merely more expensive labour costs.


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## koolkid (Apr 17, 2006)

Fern~Fern* said:


> There's nothing happening in Brazil... :lol:


Brazil builds the most rail in all of Latin America. There are currently various light rail systems being built in Brazil's medium sized cities, so it's not just the big cities getting all the action. It's enough to make even american cities blue with envy.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1397572


As for the Mexican high speed rail project, It's great to finally see this project take off. I recall hearing about it several years ago, took a while for it to finally take off. The rolling stock isnt too bad either.


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

MarcVD said:


> That's what I meant. Once the decision is taken, there is no possibility for
> citizens possibly impacted to seek recourse, and they certainly do not
> embarrass themselves with environmental impact studies or archeological
> surveys. That alone can save 50% of the elapsed time. And there won't be
> endless discussions about where the funding is going to come from either.


Yes there is, take for example the Beijing-Shengyang HSR, it was announced in 2008, but its first three EIS's were rejected, and local residents protested against its route, the line was delayed for five years until it finally got approved in 2013. There are still opposition and a petition was started so construction preparation didn't start until a few months ago.

All Chinese HSR lines have to go through EIS and public comment before they can proceed, and then it takes a great amount of time to acquire all the land needed, land acquisition cost is one of the biggest factor in Chinese HSR construction cost.


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## Cosmicbliss (Aug 9, 2009)

jonasry said:


> But you are wrong on this, there's both environmental impact studies and archaeological surveys when needed. Sure, there's generally no way for citizens to impact decisions after they have been taking. But in all practical sense there's no way for individual citizens in the US to do this either. Instead there's endless exchanges of lawsuits between different economic actors on who to benefit from a project.
> 
> Now, all of this is way off topic. But my main point is that China do have an effective state apparatus that includes obvious things such as environmental impact studies and so on. They might not be perfect, or always followed but it's a myth that there's no proper state apparatus in China that handles the everyday bureaucratic issues. Instead we must look into the allocation of investment and centralized economy as key factors for the rapid construction of HSR.


If just not having democracy was enough every non democracy would be having HSR. hno:


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Business class at the CRH380A










info:



> 30% will be 2nd class


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

China Expected to Supply Mexico with High-Speed 'Bullet' Trains










China will likely begin supplying Mexico bullet trains through a consortium of four Chinese companies and four Mexican firms, reports Caixin Online. It would mark the first time China has exported its high-speed trains.

[...]

http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/...ction-corp-mexico-s-a-de-c-v-and-csr-corp.htm


I've read that the mexican secretary of communications and transportation is optimistic about the chinese proposal.

"If we had accepted an 240 days extension, it would implied to lose more that a thousand million mexican pesos per year in resources already contemplated to be spent on the train in 2015".

http://www.radioformula.com.mx/notas.asp?Idn=450507&idFC=2014


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> *99% of chinese bid approved*, to announce November 3.


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## BringMe (May 7, 2011)

I hope the mexican train keeps the yellow/grey painting because looks so amazing :drool:


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

BringMe said:


> I hope the mexican train keeps the yellow/grey painting because looks so amazing :drool:




^^ It will resemble a school bus.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

A red and white or red and black scheme would look amazing. I hope they don't paint the entire train with the three colors as usual. Even a gradient from red to orange would look nice.


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

BringMe said:


> I hope the mexican train keeps the yellow/grey painting because looks so amazing :drool:


That train is a train laboratory, hence its color, style Japanese Doctor Yellow. Is the Comprehensive Inspection Test trainset CIT400A, derived from CRH380A.001.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Donegal said:


> A red and white or red and black scheme would look amazing. I hope they don't paint the entire train with the three colors as usual. Even a gradient from red to orange would look nice.


you could make some renders


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## Legomaniac (Jun 30, 2012)

Donegal said:


> A red and white or red and black scheme would look amazing. I hope they don't paint the entire train with the three colors as usual. Even a gradient from red to orange would look nice.



:crazy:
this one keeps on appearing for the Mexico-Toluca one, hopefully its just for illustrative purposes and it doesn't turn into the real look for either train.









source:www.elrespetabledf.com


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

Legomaniac said:


> :crazy:
> this one keeps on appearing for the Mexico-Toluca one, hopefully its just for illustrative purposes and it doesn't turn into the real look for either train.
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's exactly what I mean:










Talking about bad taste. I wonder why they always put their flag's colors on their vehicles? I understand, they have some patriotic reasons, but hey, you don't need to paint green, white and red on everything, right?

I really hope they're thinking about hiring a professional designer.




elekto said:


> you could make some renders



I'm not a designer, but maybe we could play a little


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## Cosmicbliss (Aug 9, 2009)

The first HSR in the Americas-Central, South and North! Kudos! 

BTW, this is also the first HSR export of China so the claim that China exports only cheap goods...well its gonna change now.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Donegal said:


> I'm not a designer, but maybe we could play a little


man! kay: haha maybe the consortium should consider your proposal!


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

I have a feeling it'll end up exactly what we have feared, the red white green scheme.


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

I'd rather the white and grey scheme. Green doesn't look good on it. Maybe in small amounts, but is a color so overrated in Mexico.


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

Mainly red and minor green and white stripes to complement and not be an eye soar.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

That doesn't look bad at all, Donegal. I liked it.


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## kevnasty27 (Feb 27, 2014)

GERARDORS said:


> ojala y si se concrete:
> 
> 87061472


A video of the Queretaro-Mexico HSR
I actually like the nice simple white, green, and red color


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## Dooie_Amsterdammert (Feb 14, 2014)

Gusiluz said:


> The train will be a version of Chinese CRH380A, manufactured by CSR Qingdao Sifang co. ltd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a question that's A bit off-topic, how many centimeters does one have at those full reclining seats?

Probably not one of the features that mexican trains will get, but i'm still curious about those seats..


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## sciarrone.eng (Aug 24, 2013)

Do we already know which trains will run on the rails or engineers have to decide yet?


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

Elekto, why do you never post links to your sources?


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## theArq100 (Sep 23, 2010)

sciarrone.eng said:


> Do we already know which trains will run on the rails or engineers have to decide yet?


The chinese said the train that will be used for this line is the CRH380A


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## 6io (Jul 2, 2011)

*¡DRAMA!*

there is a problem going on, the president revoke the accepted project as a winner in order to put more transparency to the process so the international tender will be open again, because there were lots of comments of corruption around the process lets see what will happen and when


http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacio...cesion-del-tren-mexico-queretaro-1052302.html


hno:


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

revoke adjudication.

believe me, there won't be High Speed Rail anymore, they say there will be new tender, but there won't be, chinese are mad.

the argument is because there was only 1 bid and people believes there was corruption.

the true is that everything was under the law and extremely professional.


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## 6io (Jul 2, 2011)

Elekto, is there a chance that the project would not get cancelled?


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

6io said:


> Elekto, is there a chance that the project would not get cancelled?


the project is dead, it was a huge mistake by the president.

why is dead? simply because the time they will give for a new tender wont be enough for another competitive consortiums be formed and even if someone presents a bid, the offer wont be as convenient as the one the chinese made us.

chinese are mad and are not going to participate in a new tender.

the most probable is that in a new tender Bombardier or Alstom participate with a more expensive bid than the chinese and will be declared *NOT SOLVENT*, then the project dies.

thank to Carmen Aristegui and the PAN because of their calumniation.

Im not going to participate of this joke anymore... thanks to everybody, it was a pleasure to try to give you something decent for a country that deserves much more than their own people believes.

Im out of this and pretty dissapointed, maybe some people is right requesting the resignation of Enrique Peña Nieto.


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## willygtoc (May 3, 2013)

Its not canceled. 

Government said they will start a new public tender before the year ends.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

willygtoc said:


> Its not canceled.
> 
> Government said they will start a new public tender before the year ends.


it is dead and dont fool yourself.

Mexico is not serious country for investment.


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## Beams91 (Nov 7, 2014)

Do I like the fact that the project was postponed? No, but I dislike even more to be living in a crony capitalism country. Some people will say there was no corruption, but they are going to be fooling themselves. Something that has not been mentioned here is that the winning consortium, that just days before presenting the tender announced its mexican partners, was formed by companies owned by cronies of the president and other members of the government and ruling party. The Chinese company knew the requirements before they were announced, and so was able to start working earlier. If anything, the government is guilty of this situation. There is a chance however that in the next tender the winners will be again cronies, and so we would just have lost time with all this.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Beams91 said:


> Do I like the fact that the project was postponed? No, but I dislike even more to be living in a crony capitalism country. Some people will say there was no corruption, but they are going to be fooling themselves. Something that has not been mentioned here is that the winning consortium, that just days before presenting the tender announced its mexican partners, was formed by companies owned by cronies of the president and other members of the government and ruling party. The Chinese company knew the requirements before they were announced, and so was able to start working earlier. If anything, the government is guilty of this situation. There is a chance however that in the next tender the winners will be again cronies, and so we would just have lost time with all this.


thats not true, it was only a speculation by a radical opposition sector, but believe whatever you want, anyways you will always have "doubts" you will always say "there was corruption".

there wont be High Speed Rail, why? because you all wont accept a more expensive bid by bombardier, Alstom, Siemens or whoever, if you already took this bid as very expensive. and the chinese are not going to participate anymore or if so, the credit wont be as friendly as for today.

In any case it will be more expensive and there will be always a cloud of doubt by a political sector whose only interest is to boycot this administration.

You politized this, so you wont have a HSR anymore.


congratulations to your naiveness.


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

Another article regarding the development. Run it though a translator if necessary.

http://mexico.cnn.com/nacional/2014...ra-el-tren-mexico-queretaro-de-alta-velocidad

*when something sounds too good to be true, it probably is...


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## Beams91 (Nov 7, 2014)

How old are you elekto? You sound very childish. Your are the naive one. There was indeed corruption, but believe whatever you want. 

I didn't politicize anything, and I won't be accepting or rejecting anything. Also this was not cancelled because of the price. The most probable thing is that this is only being postoned, but sadly, I can't deny the posibility of cancellation exists. As I said, if anything this is the government's fault. They have shown they don't have the political abiltity that made them famous some decades ago. 

You say this was created by a radical sector, and the only radical in this was Aristegui, who is indeed very biased; however most of the people involved are not radicals and are just asking for a cleaner process. 

I repeat believe whatever you want. I won't be coming back to this argument, so I give you the benefit of the last word, even if it is the word of a child.

P.S. Before entering english speaking forums you should improve your language abilities.


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## 6io (Jul 2, 2011)

So can we say that the future depends of the Chinese response to this situation?
If they still on the game and bid again is there a hope for the project to continue?
Because hardly any other company might tie what China Railway company put on the table hno:

Right now the effects of this situation hit Chinese shares hno:
But the company still in silence about it.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...ares-drop-on-report-of-losing-mexico-contract


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

you've got to be kidding!


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

Business deals are business deals and the President needs to be an alpha leader and move forward with he project. 

☆ Gentleman's Agreement ☆

:yes:


Tomorrow is another day and we should have some news from the horses mouth!


Eleckto, I can just imagine how you are feeling tonight. So just chilax and get a nice bottle of wine and tomorrow will be a new day...


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## Donegal (May 19, 2010)

Yeah, I'm going to bed now. We'll see what tomorrow brings.


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## megaroad1 (Sep 7, 2014)

I'm flabbergasted. 

This looks absolutely terrible. Because it means that there were "irregularities" with the process. If the process was by the book, then who cares what people think? They can open up an investigation that will reveal nothing. 

I think Elekto might be on to to something. I'm afraid this could end up cancelling the whole thing. If the Chinese pull out, or the other bidders make everything more expensive, Mexico would have a hard time financing this. The price of oil is much lower than what the Mexican government had budgeted and public finances could be in trouble next year.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2014)

I'm completely shocked and disappointed.


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

I knew this would happen...



Spam King said:


> I don't think this will ever get beyond being a proposal.





elekto said:


> Is not a proposal, it was a proposal several years ago, actually is an *Executive Project* with all feasibility studies done and approved, with a budget for the next 4 years and in the phase of tendering.
> 
> The proposals are the ones the consortiums are going to do next months.
> 
> ...





brickellresidence said:


> Obviously you had to be the "spam king" :bash:


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## m_avorreixo (Jun 16, 2014)

I heard that the contract award has been cancelled... Is it true ?


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## gael atangana (Apr 7, 2014)

loool they award a project yesterday and cancelled it just 2 days after? lool :nuts::lol::lol: 

This must be a joke. It will better for them to just continue living with their current railway system, instead of making a joke out of themselves on this/laughing stock for the world.:lol: 

I have been following this news for a while now, only for it to finish in a tragedy.:lol: Bombardier, Alstom and the likes even if they were to tender/participate in this project,t heir prices will be crazyyy, which im not sure the authorities in mexico will agree with this, especially after they rejected a cheaper deal. So if anything they set a trap for themselves, which means i dont see how this project will ever be carried out this coming years. Maybe in 4 or 5 years from now, when everyone has forgotten about the current fiasco. 

Seems Mexico wont have the first high speed railway in the Americas afterall.:lol::bash:


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

New tender to be open late November. It will be open for six months.


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## hmmwv (Jul 19, 2006)

President Enrique Pena Nieto will have to be answering to the Chinese on his state visit next week.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

joaquinmartinez said:


> New tender to be open late November. It will be open for six months.


In any case will be more expensive, add 6 more months of inflation, 6 more months of peso devaluation, 6 more months of political polarization (there will be mid term elections in Mexico next July) and if interest rates rise in the US prior to the submission of bids, forget about any financing.

My mexican fellows are tooooooo naive and ignorant about all this, they focus only in the shape and model of the train.

there wont be a cheaper bid than the former one, even if the chinese participate again.

they will have "more" transparency and "more" competition, but they won't have HSR.

unless they agree on pay more.





> *Maybe is not the best for Mexico*, but is the best for transparency.
> 
> Secretary Ruiz Esparza explains this decision. (audio in spanish)



Not maybe, *IS* the worse for Mexico.


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## dollaztx (May 2, 2009)

I wonder how all this will affect Chinese/Mexican relations that they were trying to strengthen.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

dollaztx said:


> I wonder how all this will affect Chinese/Mexican relations that they were trying to strengthen.


I dont know for what Peña is going to China now, to request investment?

:nuts:


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

I don't have any inside knowledge about Mexican politics or corruption, but I do have some from my own native land. When I heard how cheap the project is supposed to be (I expected about the same price without rolling stock) I was wondering if this is not the old bite and switch trick used from time to time in infrastructure projects at home. The basic idea is to offer very low prices to win the project, often via collusion with government officials who would overlook any deficiencies in the proposal, then start construction and "discover" various "unforeseeable" issues which inevitably make the project more expensive. Since the construction is already half way finished later government even if not corrupt has little other option than paying up. 

Maybe that's why Alstom, CAF, Siemens etc. didn't compete because they are smarter than us here and were not interested in playing such a game. They have a reputation to preserve for future projects elsewhere. 

Of course all this is speculation. It could also be that President is incompetent and/or payed off by some other lobby.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^the problem are the "maybes", there was hundreds of professionals working on this, with huge feasibility studies only to throwing it all away because of the "maybes".

A president that take such a decision because of the "maybes" is by definition incompetent.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

You and me don't have enough inside information to judge that accurately.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

These type of big ticket project always involve some (or a lot) of politics. So, weird stuff happens but this is yet another level. At least, they could have waited some time following the announcement. LOL  Like Turkey is doing with Chinese FD2000


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## sciarrone.eng (Aug 24, 2013)

It's true that it is a failed chance, it's true that the time is important and 6 months are very long but the most important thing is first the infrastructure, after come trains. Now optimism, everytime when important and big buildings are built there are always problems. So, I don't want to say that this is normal, but only a phase of the construction of the first high speed rail in America. 

________


Who won the tender for the CONSTRUCTION of the two lines?
Will work start this year like forecasts? 
When will the construction end? 2016?


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## skyridgeline (Dec 7, 2008)

Sunfuns said:


> You and me don't have enough inside information to judge that accurately.


China steel and loans alone will beat any competitors :lol:! There is just one catch though - no cash transaction :hilarious .


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

This looks grim. Sadly, it seems to be going the way of many major Latam infrastructure projects. Not unlike the SP-RJ HSR (which made a huge economic sense) or Venezuela´s nascent rail system (which is nascent for like a decade now and has 45 km ready :bash.


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## Dooie_Amsterdammert (Feb 14, 2014)

Oke, I get it, it's Mexico's equivalent to April fools day, haha..

...


Right?!#@!


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Huh, so that was why all the other bidders left the bidding.

If a more transparent process appears, they may well come back with serious offers.


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## _Jan_ (Jun 21, 2011)

Some people have doubts because the price is ridiculously low and the project is ridiculously fast. If they spend 10 minutes to study the history of HSR in China, they will notice the price and construction time is totally reasonable.

World Bank had a research report on this matter, and the conclusion is that average cost of constructing one mile of HSR in China is about 30% lower than in other countries. Without this, China could have by no means completed more than 10,000 km high speed rail track in 5 years. 

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/pr...china-one-third-lower-than-in-other-countries

Shanghai-Beijing HSR is 1318km long and its construction took about 3 years. The total cost is $38b. China has constructed a HSR net that exceeds 10,000km since then, and the average cost has dropped. According to the world bank report, average cost of 350kmph HSR track is $0.216b/km. Of course, this is only an average number. The cost differs case by case.

That said, I personally believe the deal that President Nieto just cancelled to avoid "any doubts about the legitimacy and transparency" is the best deal he ever gets. Nieto showed courage to give China a slap in the face, and also managed to destroy the credibility of Mexico government in front the world. If a deal can be revoked so easily since there is "doubts", then maybe this is not a serious deal after all. China is even financing 85% of this project. If CRC is not stupid, they should also redo the risk analysis and add the government's attitude as an additional risk. It will be interesting to see if CRC bids again, and how much more President Nieto is willing to pay to achieve so-called "legitimacy and transparency".


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

^^ To my understanding (do not quote me) is that the issue for why this project was pulledback was due to Mexican companies affiliated. There was no question on the Chinese side at all and everyone was aware of the good deal. So in the next round there will be other Mexican companies without special privileges. 

That should also allow other non-chinese companies to summit their bids and honestly there's no excuse of time this time around. I am definitely not throwing the towel in yet and believe this important project will be moving forward as planned.


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

> Shanghai-Beijing HSR is 1318km long and its construction took about 3 years. The total cost is $38b. China has constructed a HSR net that exceeds 10,000km since then, and the average cost has dropped. According to the world bank report, average cost of 350kmph HSR track is $0.216b/km. Of course, this is only an average number. The cost differs case by case.


One serious flaw:

Mexico is not China.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

info:



> *CAF* said that the new term exceeds the two months they had requested, so they *will participate* because *they have advanced their project already*.



will the Oaris be ready by May 2015?


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

^^ I do not think so, while we know nothing of the prototype, which is parked in the reservoir of La Sagra.
Have long said they would extend the prototype from 4 to 8 cars and rumors speak of Renfe or CAF nor want to pay the cost.
Moreover, it makes no sense to say that CAF will participate if it can not.
Hopefully I'm wrong.

Oaris will participate in the competition of new trains for Renfe.
..............................................................
No lo creo, hace tiempo que no sabemos nada del prototipo, que se encuentra estacionado en el depósito de La Sagra.
Hace tiempo dijeron que iban a ampliar el prototipo de 4 a 8 coches y los rumores hablan de que ni Renfe ni CAF quieren pagar el coste.
Por otra parte, tampoco tiene sentido que CAF diga que va a participar si no puede. 
Ojalá esté equivocado.

Sí que va a participar en el concurso de nuevos trenes para Renfe.


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

Maybe CAF is thinking to participate along with TALGO???


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

^^ The two are manufacturers and competing, do not get anything right.
The Ministry of Public Works and Renfe tried to bring together for Brazil, and that ended badly.
............................
Los dos son fabricantes y competidores, no se llevan nada bien.
El ministerio de Fomento y Renfe intentaron juntar a los dos para Brasil y aquello acabó bastante mal.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

In case of CAF and Talgo I can understand they don't want to cooperate: The Talgo technology concept is just to different from anything else on the market. As a matter of pride neither will probably want to admit their competitors concept is better.


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

Since you talk about Talgo, the AVRIL G3 will be certified in 2015 at 330 km/h according the test director of Talgo.
..........................................
Ya que se habla de Talgo, el AVRIL G3 se homologará en 2015 a 330 km/h según el director de pruebas de Talgo.


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

elekto said:


> info:
> CAF said that the new term exceeds the two months they had requested, so they will participate because they have advanced their project already.


Source?


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

Spam King said:


> Source?


 
http://www.criteriohidalgo.com/notas.asp?id=276690


Regards.


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## titan_trains (Mar 10, 2010)

Gusiluz said:


> ^^ I do not think so, while we know nothing of the prototype, which is parked in the reservoir of La Sagra.
> Have long said they would extend the prototype from 4 to 8 cars and rumors speak of Renfe or CAF nor want to pay the cost.
> Moreover, it makes no sense to say that CAF will participate if it can not.
> Hopefully I'm wrong.
> ...


The OARIS is not parked in La Sagra depot, but in CAF facilities in Beasain. Currently it is having its systems checked and upgraded according to the long test campaigns carried out in the last months.

In addition, the onboard ETCS equipment is being replaced by the one designed and manufactured by CAF SIGNALLING. So soon the prototype will be back on the track to start a new ERTMS commisioning.

You are right, it looks like the train will not be enlarged to 8 cars due to the lack of available budget in RENFE. It is a pity, because according to the existing results it is expected that the 8 cars OARIS will be able to reach 400 km/h.

=====

EL OARIS no está en el depósito de La Sagra sino en las instalaciones de CAF en Beasain. En estos momento se le están comprobando y actualizando los sistemas tras la larga campaña de ensayos de los últimos meses.

Además,el equipo del ETCS embarcado se están sustituyendo por el diseñado y fabricado por CAF SIGNALLING. Por tanto en breve el prototipo volverá a la vías para comenzar la certificación del nuevo ERTMS. 

Estás en lo cierto en que el tren no se ampliará a 8 coches por falta de dinero en las arcas de RENFE. Es una pena porque de acuerdo a los resultados que se tienen con el de 4 coches, el OARIS de 8 coches podría alcanzar los 400 km/h.


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

^^ Well I'm glad to be wrong. I got it made no sense CAF message if it could not present.

How about the new air suspension for improved cornering comfort ?, what was tested in May.
............................................
Pues me alegro de estar equivocado. Ya puse que no tenía sentido el mensaje de CAF si no se podía presentar.
¿Qué tal la nueva suspensión neumática para mejorar el confort al paso por curva?, lo que se probó en mayo.
............................................
Otra cosa, no encuentro ninguna fuente medianamente fiable sobre el origen Mitsubishi de la tracción del Oaris. Es para la wikipedia. 
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAF_Oaris
Gracias.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Im agree with you, sadly people here is pretty ignorant, but since now we assume that CAF has nothing to present in May, non sense that declaration by CAF.

btw nobody is ready, nor will be, only the chinese again.


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## titan_trains (Mar 10, 2010)

Gusiluz said:


> How about the new air suspension for improved cornering comfort ?, what was tested in May.
> ............................................
> ¿Qué tal la nueva suspensión neumática para mejorar el confort al paso por curva?, lo que se probó en mayo.
> ............................................
> ...


A couple of pneumatic innovations were tested, one for improved cornering comfort, as you said, whose first version was tested on a modified RENFE 594 DMU and the second one for vertical comfort. The results are satisfactory and pave the way for their usage in the future.

Concerning the traction, you can not find any reliable source because Mitsubishi is not the system supplier but just a component supplier in case of the OARIS.

OARIS' traction was designed by CAF's engineers as a system integrating components from different suppliers. While the inverter comes from Mitsubishi the motors come from other company and the transformer from a third one. So it is wrong and rather unfair to say the traction system is by Mitsubishi.

This concept may sound weird but the reality is that it works and it pushes like hell.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^do you believe the Oaris will be ready by May?


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

^^ No longer answering Titan Trains, I will.

If the news you put CAF says he will present and *Titan Trains* scolds me for writing that does not believe (how bad I am! ), will have to bet yes.

I imagine that arise with Indra Systems and OHL, just as planned, because IAMSA fell consortium ¿?.
..................................
Ya que no contesta Titan Trains, lo haré yo.
Si en la noticia que pusiste CAF dice que se va a presentar y Titan Trains me riñe por escribir que no lo creo (¡qué malo que soy!), habrá que apostar a que sí.
Imagino que se presenten con Indra Systems y OHL, tal y como estaba previsto, porque IAMSA se cayó del consorcio ¿?.


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

CRCC and other Chinese firms confirm they will tender again.


Source: CNN (spanish)

http://www.cnnexpansion.com/negocio...inas-van-de-nuevo-por-el-tren-mexicoqueretaro


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

It is CONFIRMED. 

New tender on December 12th.

January 25th, 2015 all proposals will be made public.


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## sciarrone.eng (Aug 24, 2013)

joaquinmartinez said:


> It is CONFIRMED.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It will take a very short time!


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

sciarrone.eng said:


> It will take a very short time!


 Indeed, and only the Chinese guys are ready.


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## sciarrone.eng (Aug 24, 2013)

joaquinmartinez said:


> Indeed, and only the Chinese guys are ready.



So probably the outcome will be the same of the first tender...


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

sciarrone.eng said:


> So probably the outcome will be the same of the first tender...


Yeap.


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

:edit:


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## megaroad1 (Sep 7, 2014)

It's not looking good to be honest. Dwindling oil revenue, a weak peso getting progresivelly weaker, and a government that has had its political reform inertia stopped in its tracks after the sad case of the 43 disappeared.

Fingers crossed I'm wrong.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

*BREAKING NEWS*​


> *Transpeninsular High Speed Train cancelled definitely* and *Mexico-Queretaro High Speed Rail suspended indefinitely* due to cuts on government spending.



Congratulations to all those who wanted more time and more transparency and more competitors for this projects, congratulations for your wisdom and welcome to Brazil.

:applause:


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

If we don't get the High Speed Rail during Nieto's administration we will definitely get it from the winning PAN party in 2018 when they win elections. After all it's them who wanted for time and transparency. Perhaps maybe they will scrap the High Speed Rail all together and PAN will introduce the Maglev Train to Mexico? Wishful thinking?


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

seotopx said:


> subway very modern


?:bash:


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## xchekox (Aug 11, 2006)

hno:


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## joaquinmartinez (Jun 1, 2012)

Let us close this thread.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

joaquinmartinez said:


> Let us close this thread.


It will be for the future generations


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

:lock:


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## k.k.jetcar (Jul 17, 2008)

I would say it's not the desire for transparency (is this bad? It's typically considered a positive in most places in the world), but rather the price of oil that is the culprit.


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## rafark (May 6, 2011)

Actually most people found the decision to be responsible as the prices of oil have gone down. This affects not only Mexico, but many other countries as well.

I personally think the gov could've taken a better decision even though it is not completely cancelled.


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

victor209 said:


> If we don't get the High Speed Rail during Nieto's administration we will definitely get it from the winning PAN party in 2018 when they win elections. After all it's them who wanted for time and transparency. Perhaps maybe they will scrap the High Speed Rail all together and PAN will introduce the Maglev Train to Mexico? Wishful thinking?


I do not know ANY country that has NO passenger rails system than jumps straight to HSR. Not ONE. All of the countries that tried to leapfrog have ended up with the most modern intercity land transport being... nice buses.

Sadly, Africa, with its more modest ambitions, will have quality rail passenger transport way ahead of Latin America (look at developments in places like Kenya, Nigeria and Ethiopia). I still do not understand why Mexico does not focus on building a conventional 160 km/h line to Queretaro. It will still be faster than land-based transport alternatives, and could even be built by upgrading existing tracks.

Anyway, this has been quite a mockery.


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## tonii (Aug 18, 2006)

victor209 said:


> If we don't get the High Speed Rail during Nieto's administration we will definitely get it from the winning PAN party in 2018 when they win elections. After all it's them who wanted for time and transparency. Perhaps maybe they will scrap the High Speed Rail all together and PAN will introduce the Maglev Train to Mexico? Wishful thinking?


Anything involve Maglev is wishful thinking.

Think about 2 of the technology foundations like Japan and Germany still don't have one. (Japan is already building one, but it will take at least another 10 years to complete in first phase).

Think about the economical mammoth like China. They just scrap the plan to build the commercial one (after having a short airport rail link one running for years).

And those 3 countries are rich as ****. Now look at Mexico and tell me you expect them to have Maglev running.


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

I guess you're right. By the time PAN has presidency which is in 3 years they will probably continue this project. I have a feeling that they wanted this project to have their name on it instead of the PRI party who currently has presidency. We'll just have to see then. I am still optimistic.


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

I would also like to add that this kind of thing happened during the PANs presidency through 2000-2006 when they tried to get a new airport for Mexico City and then it was cancelled and now the PRI got Mexico City the airport it deserves. After all it will be the 3rd most important airport in the world (allegedly). I think for these kind of projects it is better to wait.


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## I(L)WTC (Jan 30, 2010)

:lol: At the first day it's dead this project.


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

I(L)WTC said:


> :lol: At the first day it's dead this project.


Don't try to come here and make a joke when you use google translate and it translates to something that makes no sense. :lol: Now that's something to laugh about.


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## Guajiro1 (Dec 23, 2012)

In before the lock :tongue3:


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## I(L)WTC (Jan 30, 2010)

victor209 said:


> Don't try to come here and make a joke when you use google translate and it translates to something that makes no sense. :lol: Now that's something to laugh about.


Te lo digo en español entonces: Desde el PRIMER DÍA que está muerto este proyecto :lol: :rofl: no tenia sentido tampoco :nuts: por escupir al cielo pasan esas cosas :lol: capisce?


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

I(L)WTC said:


> Te lo digo en español entonces: Desde el PRIMER DÍA que está muerto este proyecto :lol: :rofl: no tenia sentido tampoco :nuts: por escupir al cielo pasan esas cosas :lol: capisce?


This is not the Latin American forums. Here we speak English. Go find a better translator and then run back and tell me :lol:


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## billfranklin (Jan 28, 2007)

What Mexico needs to do, IMO, is to get right of way NOW. Get the straightest, and, least curved right of way to start. Perhaps 4 tracks wide or more. Before putting in the HSR, put in a good, fast conventional rail line with road crossings. Put in 4 track stations while leaving room for an additional 2 tracks for HSR use. Then, concentrate on getting progressively higher average speeds. Don't try to impress the world, just yet. Just make something that works very well.

This is something not being done in the US, but, the US passenger rail industry is NOT the one to copy. Look instead at Japan, France, Germany, and, Italy.

Start simply, and, build Mexico's own passenger train manufacturing industry, while doing it.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

The Mexico-Queretaro route is very feasible for a train over 200km/h, all the studies confirm it and the cost is reliable if we take in consideration that the enlargement of the highway is even more expensive than the HSR with a higher environmental impact.

The project was not cancelled because of technical or economical unfeasibility, it was cancelled because of stupid political priorities and peculiar circumstances of the mexican midterm elections this year.

That is why it should have never being deferred last year, because with this, they only gave opportunity to more ignorant voices to develop every kind of arguments against the convenience of this infrastructure.

The enlargement of the Mexico-Queretaro highway to 8 tracks has an estimated cost of U$4 billions, about a third more than the HSR.

Any train running under 200km/h is not competitive nor with foreign bus service, nor with low cost airlines.

In this respect a High Speed Train under 250km/h is feasible too and remember that the rights of way are acquired 100% by now.


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

It was the correct decision to cancel this project. The cost is absurd for the tiny ridership it was projected to have. The money would be much better spent expanding urban rail within the Valley of Mexico which would have much higher ridership, increase public transit usage and help reduce the incredible amount of congestion in the metropolitan area.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Some people seems not to understand that the Mexico-Queretaro High Speed Rail is only the 1st stage of a larger network which will connect Mexico City with other big metropolises like Leon and Guadalajara demanding way more ridership.

If you dont take the first step now, when?

It was a stupid decision to cancell this train, specially because of the extremely affordable conditions that the chinese were giving us.

Mexicans are not famous for seizing huge opportunities when they appear (Mexico vs Netherlands).

And Mexico CAN afford urban railway systems and 1 line of HSR, the problem is politics and the convenience of some people of induce to the failure of their fellows.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

elekto said:


> Some people seems not to understand that the Mexico-Queretaro High Speed Rail is only the 1st stage of a larger network which will connect Mexico City with other big metropolises like Leon and Guadalajara demanding way more ridership.
> 
> If you dont take the first step now, when?
> 
> ...


#sierapenal :lol:


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

elekto said:


> *Any train running under 200km/h is not competitive nor with foreign bus service*, nor with low cost airlines.


Wow, Mexico must have really fast buses. Seriously though, trains in the UK all travel under 200 km/h and have no trouble competing with buses, even though the latter are cheaper. At a speed of 200, a train is quite fast, especially as it does not have to deal with traffic, if terminal stations are in city centres. HSR is better, of course, but both more expensive to build and more expensive to operate.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

Robi_damian said:


> Wow, Mexico must have really fast buses. Seriously though, trains in the UK all travel under 200 km/h and have no trouble competing with buses, even though the latter are cheaper. At a speed of 200, a train is quite fast, especially as it does not have to deal with traffic, if terminal stations are in city centres. HSR is better, of course, but both more expensive to build and more expensive to operate.


In this specific route buses are not as cheap and the Mexico Queretaro highway is congestioned, is not a matter of demand but a matter of congestion and reduce accident in this specific route.

Nobody is talking about the whole Mexico, we are talking about the Mexico Queretaro highway specifically. It is ridiculous to belive that in a country the size and with the orography of Mexico a slow train can compete with highways.

If that was the case, we would have plenty of rail passenger networks working right now.


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## gippas (Nov 19, 2013)

^^
Depends what you mean by "slow train". A train with top speed of 200 km/h and a journey speed of let's say 120 km/h can do the distance between the center of DF and Queretaro in around 110 min. That's definitely faster than buses, cars and airplanes. A trip to Leon that would take let's say 220 min would also be pretty competitive, at least to cars and buses, not to mention the extra comfort that the train offers. 

For distances up to 350 km, HSR is a "nice to have", not essential. Most countries in Europe have very successfull lines in those distances without them being up to HSR standards (or with only part sof them being HSR). Clean, comfortable, on-time, trains works just as well as HSR in those distances.


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

^^ The objective has been always to serve Guadalajara, around 600km away from Mexico City. A network with trains running under 200km/h and with several stations in between is not competitive to connect Mexico City and Guadalajara. Queretaro is only the 1st stage, not the definitive line.


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## gippas (Nov 19, 2013)

Ok, I don't know Mexico well but from what I understood whille reading this thread was the main role of this project was to relieve highway traffic. A 200 km-h train is perfectly competitive to cars, even for the Guadalajara-DF line. In Greece for example, trains currently do the distance between Athens and Thessaloniki (very similar distance to DF-Guadalajara) in 5+ hours and they still manages to have 30% of passenger trips (yes, there are buses and cheap flights too). In Sweden, the 200 km/h train between Stockholm and Gothenburg (again, quite similar distance) that does the trip in around 3 hours has an even higher share.

Mexico is not like California, where there is not much between LA and the Bay area. Leon and Queretaro are quite big metropolitan areas that would be worth to connect, even if Guadalajara didn't exist. The question is, if connecting them "now" with a 200 km/h line is feasible, would it be better not to do it and wait for the time to come when HSR would be feasible? Or would it be better to make a 200 km/h line now and improve it in the future? Maybe make the part to Queretaro 200 km/h and then make the rest HSR)

I'm not saying I have the answer, just that between HSR and no rail there are many options that also offer benefits and drawbacks.


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## Alejandro24 (Feb 17, 2011)

Spam King said:


> It was the correct decision to cancel this project. The cost is absurd for the tiny ridership it was projected to have. The money would be much better spent expanding urban rail within the Valley of Mexico which would have much higher ridership, increase public transit usage and help reduce the incredible amount of congestion in the metropolitan area.


Yeah, of course, let's keep the invest over the Valley of Mexico, over the metropolitan area of Mexico City, instead make new investments in the country. Like if Mexico City were the whole Mexico. :bash:
The cancellation of this project only delays a truly abandoned sector over the mexican railways :cripes: .


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

elekto said:


> talking about the whole Mexico, we are talking about the Mexico Queretaro highway specifically. It is ridiculous to belive that in a country the size and with the orography of Mexico a slow train can compete with highways.
> 
> If that was the case, we would have plenty of rail passenger networks working right now.


It depends on what you mean by slow. Anyway, my point still stands: no country (except oil-rich Saudi Arabia) has managed to create or credibly start a single HSR line without having a more or less functioning rail network in place before. Simply said, HSR is considerably more expensive than normal tracks and difficult to push through in places with no culture of passenger rail transport. I see the same thing with Brazil, where they are bickering over an HSR between Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, though an upgrade of the existing line plus a diversion of freight traffic could see trains linking the two cities in 4 hours, which is not that great when competing with airplanes, but would still ensure good ridership at minimum costs, given the size of the two cities.

Actually, this is a disease of my country too (Romania). Many transport ministers have flaunted the HSR card while the pre-existing infrastructure was allowed to crumble. Neighbouring Ukraine just slapped some superficial repairs on their network, and their trains are significantly faster than our own (currently). HSR is good and all, but in countries with no tradition of keeping a functional rail system they often mean "I´m a gonna flaunt this flashy project to the plebes, maybe I can get some votes" and just that. Dust in the eyes. So, I believe that by 2025, while Mexicans and Brazilians will be boarding a bus to travel to neighbouring cities, people in Argentina or even Kenya will be able to chose between bus, cars and trains for at least some routes.


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## victor209 (Oct 7, 2014)

I think that in 2-4 years the queretaro-mexico high speed rail plan will no longer be suspended and bidding willing continue. I have a feeling that is how things are going to happen. It's because of the weak peso and falling oil prices that affected this plan of high speed rail. Mexico is better off waiting anyways. I have hope.


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## Spam King (May 14, 2008)

victor209 said:


> I think that in 2-4 years the queretaro-mexico high speed rail plan will no longer be suspended and bidding willing continue.


lol. 

In all seriousness, I hope that doesn't happen and that the money is instead spent on expanding inter- and suburban rail in the DF and Edomex.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ina-for-cancelled-hs-project.html?channel=523
> 
> *Mexico compensates China for cancelled HS project*
> Friday, May 22, 2015
> ...


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## elekto (Jul 28, 2014)

ok, circumstances are improving, economy improving so this project shows signs of life after all.



> info:
> 
> SCT secretary Gerardo Ruiz announced that *in order to advance in this project, works for the extention of the suburban train from Buenavista to Huehuetoca will be developed*. This works are fundamental for the MQ High Speed Rail can be built further.
> 
> ...


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## sizzpurp (Jan 27, 2015)

elekto said:


> ok, circumstances are improving, economy improving so this project shows signs of life after all.


How many stations will be built? Just Huehuetoca?


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

Wait...what???


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## Dopersky (Jun 11, 2018)

*Wink to China: Mexico's New President confirm that the Mexico-Queretaro High Speed Rail project will be reactivated*
*The HSR was included in the railway network plan.*



> As calculated by the Chinese government, with the end of Peña Nieto's term of office would come the reactivation of the Mexico-Queretaro train, which actually appears in the plan of the new national railroad network of the government of Andrés Manuel López Obrador.
> 
> It will be one of the ambitious works that Javier Jiménez Espriú will launch, but as LPO has learned , there is another key figure in his development: Simón Levy Debbah, very close to Miguel Ángel Mancera, since during his administration he was in charge of ProCDMX - the agency of investment promotion in the capital-, and later, like others, he made the leap to Morena.
> 
> ...


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## Fern~Fern* (Nov 27, 2005)

So does that means everyone is eligible to bid for the project once again? 

Is this a strictly Mexico/China under the table agreement to move forward and avoid any hideous bid procedure?


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