# Petrol Prices versus Taking Transit



## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Lately, gas prices have been on the surge again, particularly in California, where prices have skyrocketed to the highest-ever cost per gallon (for unleaded; premium gas prices are much higher).

Sources:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/10/05/california-gas-prices-shoot-up-overnight/

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/10/05/gas-prices-rise-another-19-2-cents-overnight/

So, I'm creating a poll, not only specific to California residents, but also to you: how much price, per gallon or liter, would it take for you to give up driving and take public transit or alternate modes of transportation? (Quoted in US Dollars for simplicity; you might need to translate it to/from your local currency)

(Note: 1 gallon = 3.8 liters; 1 liter = 0.264 gallons)

As usual, SSC rules apply to each reply, so please think before writing your rampage.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

I've never considered taking the car instead of the bus. Illogical in the city.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> I've never considered taking the car instead of the bus. Illogical in the city.


Sounds like me too. Suburbia, though, is a different story.  I travel like 40km one way from home to get to school.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

My neighbourhood has 7 buslines. Thought 40 km is more then the diameter of my city.










The least frequent comes every 15 min during the day.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> My neighbourhood has 7 buslines. Thought 40 km is more then the diameter of my city.
> 
> The least frequent comes every 15 min during the day.


Ah. Where do you live to start with? Plus how close is your community to the big city?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Ah. Where do you live to start with? Plus how close is your community to the big city?


In this area:

https://maps.google.hu/maps?hl=hu&ll=47.519418,19.153301&spn=0.006275,0.016512&t=h&z=17

Its inside city limits.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> In this area:
> 
> https://maps.google.hu/maps?hl=hu&ll=47.519418,19.153301&spn=0.006275,0.016512&t=h&z=17
> 
> Its inside city limits.


Oh so you live just east of Budapest... Very nice area indeed. How close is your place from the nearest tram station? If I live in a city like yours, I would use the tram, bus, and metro.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Sounds like me too. Suburbia, though, is a different story.  I travel like 40km one way from home to get to school.


That is too bad, I am fortunate enough and so do the rest of my family to be able to reside in suburbia and drive to work without breaking the bank. Having a smaller car and not a gas guzzler also helps a bit. I'm glad that Clark County is not as spread out as other counties in the nation and we are fortunate enough to have purchased homes just a short distance from work.:cheers:

It is great that our city center (Strip/Downtown) is centrally located that majority of people residing in Clark County does not need to drive long distances.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

jbkayaker12 said:


> That is too bad, I am fortunate enough and so do the rest of my family to be able to reside in suburbia and drive to work without breaking the bank. Having a smaller car and not a gas guzzler also helps a bit. I'm glad that Clark County is not as spread out as other counties in the nation and we are fortunate enough to have purchased homes just a short distance from work.:cheers:
> 
> It is great that our city center (Strip/Downtown) is centrally located that majority of people residing in Clark County does not need to drive long distances.


Too bad? 25 miles isn't that bad, is it? I would be worse off if I commute between Sacramento and the Bay Area: now that is a journey in itself. By the way, flights between Sacramento and San Francisco are available daily; other options include Amtrak, Greyhound, and multiple transfers by bus and ferry.

The longest transit bus line here in the Bay Area that I know (connecting San Francisco and suburbia) of runs for 55 miles one-way. Now that's an epic trip: two hours for commuter express, 2-1/2 for limited stop, as long as 3 hours for the stopping (local) version.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Oh so you live just east of Budapest... Very nice area indeed. How close is your place from the nearest tram station? If I live in a city like yours, I would use the tram, bus, and metro.


No, I live well inside the city, halfway to the city limits.

Nearest metro station is about 5-10 min with bus, depending on wether its express or regular bus.

Here is a map of the daytime services.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> No, I live well inside the city, halfway to the city limits.
> 
> Nearest metro station is about 5-10 min with bus, depending on wether its express or regular bus.
> 
> Here is a map of the daytime services.


Ah that's very nice indeed. How close is your place to a main road? And how much is petrol there per liter?


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Too bad? 25 miles isn't that bad, is it? I would be worse off if I commute between Sacramento and the Bay Area: now that is a journey in itself. By the way, flights between Sacramento and San Francisco are available daily; other options include Amtrak, Greyhound, and multiple transfers by bus and ferry.
> 
> The longest transit bus line here in the Bay Area that I know (connecting San Francisco and suburbia) of runs for 55 miles one-way. Now that's an epic trip: two hours for commuter express, 2-1/2 for limited stop, as long as 3 hours for the stopping (local) version.


By Clark County, NV standards, it is. Travelling 25 miles to work is far for us. In California, driving 25 miles one way is not a big deal.:cheers: I used to live in Orange County, CA. I know many Californians drive long distances to get to work.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Ah that's very nice indeed. How close is your place to a main road? And how much is petrol there per liter?


Main road 3 (international E71) is 1,7 kms away. But if by main road you mean a road with higher traffic, its 210 and 450 metres away. 

95 is 1,93 USD/l.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> Main road 3 (international E71) is 1,7 kms away. But if by main road you mean a road with higher traffic, its 210 and 450 metres away.
> 
> 95 is 1,93 USD/l.


Not bad. It seems like you live in a great place then, not too far from a bus line indeed. Does your family or do you own a car too?


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

jbkayaker12 said:


> By Clark County, NV standards, it is. Travelling 25 miles to work is far for us. In California, driving 25 miles one way is not a big deal.:cheers: I used to live in Orange County, CA. I know many Californians drive long distances to get to work.


Aha, there we go. The OC? Yeah, many workers travel from the OC (and pretty much all over the LA Metro) to get to work... The most notorious in OC: the 405, the 91, and the 5, true?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Not bad. It seems like you live in a great place then, not too far from a bus line indeed. Does your family or do you own a car too?


We have 3 cars.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> We have 3 cars.


Ah ok. I hope you pay not too much on petrol. Taking care of three cars can be a costly proposition. My family has two cars, and we use them nearly daily... And petrol prices here shot up from like $4.30 to $4.70 now per gallon.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Ah ok. I hope you pay not too much on petrol. Taking care of three cars can be a costly proposition. My family has two cars, and we use them nearly daily... And petrol prices here shot up from like $4.30 to $4.70 now per gallon.


If you have any more questions about this place, PM me, we've gone waaaay off topic here.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

Yes. Back to topic.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

So I'm thinking of a follow-up question: is the current price of petrol or gas in your area "justified"? Justified meaning it accounts for pollution charges, environmental impacts, economic impacts, etc., not just how much you see before entering a gas station.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

No need for a car at all. Annual pass for entire public transport of Vienna costs € 365. Taking into account that you actually have to buy a car, you'd not even make one month for this money.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

fieldsofdreams said:


> So I'm thinking of a follow-up question: is the current price of petrol or gas in your area "justified"? Justified meaning it accounts for pollution charges, environmental impacts, economic impacts, etc., not just how much you see before entering a gas station.


They are. Statistik Austria just recently published a study showing that gas prices never have been this low in comparison of how long someone has to work in order to earn 1 l of gas.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

KingNick said:


> No need for a car at all. Annual pass for entire public transport of Vienna costs € 365. Taking into account that you actually have to buy a car, you'd not even make one month for this money.


That much? And how much for a monthly pass? If I have a stable job, then I can afford to get an annual transit pass indeed. You sparked an idea for me: I will look into an annual pass for other transit agencies here in the San Francisco Bay Area.


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Its 416 EUR here. Valid for almost anything in the city.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> Its 416 EUR here. Valid for almost anything in the city.


Dang. What makes your annual pass more expensive in Budapest than Vienna?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

We've been asking this from ourselves for a very long time, for many things.


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## jbkayaker12 (Nov 8, 2004)

fieldsofdreams said:


> So I'm thinking of a follow-up question: is the current price of petrol or gas in your area "justified"? Justified meaning it accounts for pollution charges, environmental impacts, economic impacts, etc., not just how much you see before entering a gas station.


Considering Southern NV's pipeline originate from both CA and UT, by price comparison with CA, Southern Nevadans pay nearly $1.00 less per gallon than CA residents so I'm happy with it.:cheers: The bottom line, we Nevadans are glad we pay less than CA and are glad we have a 2nd pipeline that supply us with our petroleum needs. It is good to have a back up in case of any supply disruption. BTW the pipeline from UT alone can supply the needs of Southern Nevadans and our visitors.:cheers:

We have not heard anything negative with regards to the environmental impacts on the newest pipeline from UT. As far as the one from CA, I cannot recall if there were any concerns raised by either CA'ians and Nevadans with regards to the pipeline. 

Too lazy to google, perhaps you can do it.:lol:


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

fieldsofdreams said:


> That much? And how much for a monthly pass? If I have a stable job, then I can afford to get an annual transit pass indeed. You sparked an idea for me: I will look into an annual pass for other transit agencies here in the San Francisco Bay Area.


Monthly is € 45. Annual pass used to be € 450 until May this year, when city gov decided to make it € 1/day. Since then an additional 70000 people bought an annual pass meaning that even though revenues/ticket declined around € 80 overall revenues pretty much stayed the same.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

KingNick said:


> Monthly is € 45. Annual pass used to be € 450 until May this year, when city gov decided to make it € 1/day. Since then an additional 70000 people bought an annual pass meaning that even though revenues/ticket declined around € 80 overall revenues pretty much stayed the same.


Ah interesting. So your city government runs the public transit network in Vienna... hmmm. I wonder how much other cities charge for an annual pass, good for all transit modes. And by the way, that must be a bargain indeed.

How much would it be if I were to pay by cash, in comparison, for all modes?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

It doesnt work that way. You can spend unlimited amount of money on single trip fares. Hence the pass system. Most of the systems on the continent are very similar.

BTW, most public transport companies on the continent are run by the cities, or publicly owned companies, without competition.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> It doesnt work that way. You can spend unlimited amount of money on single trip fares. Hence the pass system. Most of the systems on the continent are very similar.
> 
> BTW, most public transport companies on the continent are run by the cities, or publicly owned companies, without competition.


Really? Hmmm... it seems like the system is pretty different here. For example: transit here in the Bay Area.

San Francisco Muni fares:

Cash: (bus, Muni Metro light rail, streetcar)
Adults: $2.00
Youth (5-18 years), Senior (65+ years), and Handicapped: $0.75
Children under 4: Free

Cash: (cable car) -- Note: paper transfers not accepted to or from cable car
Adults and youth: $6.00
Seniors (65+ years) and handicapped:
- Between 7am and 9pm: $6.00
- Before 7am and after 9pm: $3.00
Children under 4: Free

Monthly passes:
Adult "A" Fast Pass (valid for Muni and BART within San Francisco): $74.00
Adult "M" Fast Pass (valid for Muni only): $62.00
Senior Pass (valid for Muni only, ID required, over 65 years): $22.00
Youth Pass (valid for Muni only, ID required, 5-17 years old): $22.00
Disabled Pass (valid for Muni only): $22.00
Lifeline Pass (valid for Muni only, income-qualified riders): $32.00

Ticket books (the one I use with my Clipper Card):
10-ride ticket book: $20.00 (available on Clipper only)
School single-ride tickets (15 in a booklet): $11.25


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

If by "cash" you mean paying on the vehicle, that doesnt fly in most cases. Pre-bought ticket or pass. Vehicles have no time to wait for swarms of people to pay individually.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

RawLee said:


> If by "cash" you mean paying on the vehicle, that doesnt fly in most cases. Pre-bought ticket or pass. Vehicles have no time to wait for swarms of people to pay individually.


Yes, that's the case. So if pay by cash on board is not the case, how much for a prepaid ticket then?

So it seems like in Budapest, your transit agency follows the "Honor System": you are responsible for holding on to your ticket when you board a transit vehicle. Correct?


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## RawLee (Jul 9, 2007)

Indeed. The honor system is the only one that is capable of handling the majority of the traffic in a city. Here, more than 50% of the people use public transport. Many buses and trams carry hundreds of people at the time, even if only 50 get off and on, paying on the vehicle would take up, like, 10 minutes.

A ticket costs slightly more than 1 EUR. http://bkv.hu/en/single_tickets
It is valid for 1 vehicle, until you get off, be it 1 stop or 30 later.

And, as I previously mentioned, most systems on the continent operate under the honour system.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

fieldsofdreams said:


> Ah interesting. So your city government runs the public transit network in Vienna... hmmm. I wonder how much other cities charge for an annual pass, good for all transit modes. And by the way, that must be a bargain indeed.
> 
> How much would it be if I were to pay by cash, in comparison, for all modes?


Buying a single tickets in a bus or streetcar (the only ones available by the drivers) costs a surcharge of 20 cents.

Prices for Vienna:

Single: € 2
24 hours: € 6.70
48 hours: € 11,70
72 hours: € 14,50
Weekly (Mon to Mon!): € 15
Montly (1st to 2nd next month): € 45
Students (5 Months): € 75/€ 150
Annual: € 365


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

KingNick said:


> Buying a single tickets in a bus or streetcar (the only ones available by the drivers) costs a surcharge of 20 cents.
> 
> Prices for Vienna:
> 
> ...


Oh OK. So let me do a cost analysis:

12 monthly passes (for a whole year): €45/mo * 12 months = €540 - compared to the Annual Pass, the savings amount to €175

A 72-hour pass versus a weekly pass: a cost difference of just €0,50

4 weekly passes to cover a month: €15/week * 4 weeks = €60 - compared to buying a monthly pass, I could save one weekly pass

I would really get the annual pass for myself indeed. It'll save me quite a lot of money.


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

And by that get people out of their cars (usually they are alone in there) into the subway and other forms of public transport. That is the whole idea, yes.


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## fieldsofdreams (Sep 21, 2012)

^^ if that's the case, how can that model be done for the US, at least for the big cities?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

In The Netherlands, despite extremely high gas prices (US$ 9.40/gal (gasoline) at the moment), cars account for 71% of all km-passenger traveled in the country. Trains, light rail and trams account for 14%, buses for 5%, bicycles for almost 7% and ferries for the rest. 

In US, as a comparison, the share of cars is around 92%. 

So even very high gas prices are not a "game changer", even when coupled with higher density living, availability of transit, other high costs of car ownership, cultural attitudes etc.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Switzerland is here the opposite. Owning and operating a car is actually cheaper, and public transit more expensive then most European countries. Yet public transit market share is getting higher every year. In canton Zurich the modal split is already about equal public transit/private transport. In the Zurich urban area the share of public transit is even higher.


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