# NEW YORK | 660 Fifth Avenue | 147m | 483ft | 39 fl | U/C



## sbarn

Brookfield is renovating 666 5th Avenue to make it more attractive to modern tenants. 












*____*-




*666 Fifth Ave. may be transformed into a slender tower*
September 10, 2015 
By Amanda Fung












> The office tower at 666 Fifth Ave. may be turned into a mall, hotel and residential tower.
> 
> The Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid has already prepared a plan that would restack 666 Fifth Ave. into a slender, super-tall hotel and residential tower above a vertical retail podium. Vornado controls the property's retail condominium, which it bought from Mr. Kushner, Carlyle and Crown Acquisitions three years ago for $710 million.


Sounds exciting! Surprised this hasn't been posted yet.


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## ThatOneGuy

This is one of the first International Style skyscrapers in NY, built almost 60 years ago, and its facade is actually pretty unique. What a waste hno:










It's completely ridiculous to demolish skyscrapers like this when there are still dilapidated lowrises to build on.


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## Hudson11

> The office tower at 666 Fifth Ave. may be turned into a mall, hotel and residential tower. Jared Kushner and Steve Roth's Vornado Realty Trust is mulling the repositioning of the 41-story, 1957-era building, according to the New York Post.
> 
> The Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid has already prepared a plan that would restack 666 Fifth Ave. into a slender, super-tall hotel and residential tower above a vertical retail podium. Vornado controls the property's retail condominium, which it bought from Mr. Kushner, Carlyle and Crown Acquisitions three years ago for $710 million.


sounds like a 425 Park Avenue-esque plan. I wouldn't be surprised if they only renovated it


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## Ghostface79

Saw this earlier in the Post and my jaw dropped. Actually the Post article says it should be somewhere around 1400 ft, and designed by Zaha Hadid of all people.
Just when you thought things couldn't get crazier in the city.
This one is clearly in the mix as one of the most exciting new projects in the city along with 80 South st, the Park Lane and the "Hudson Spire".


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## sbarn

^^ Here is the quote from the Post:



> Real estate heavyweights Steve Roth and Jared Kushner are mulling a plan to reposition the 1957-era aluminum-clad 666 Fifth Ave. office tower into a 1,400-foot vertical mall, hotel and residential tower.


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## scalziand

ThatOneGuy said:


> It's completely ridiculous to demolish skyscrapers like this when there are still dilapidated lowrises to build on.


It's also a bit ridiculous to waste such a huge through block site on residential construction.


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## JohnDee

This tower will be totally transformed by the amazing Hadid. Whether they keep part of the tower or not, the whole thing will look completely different and 5th avenue will benefit. The street is in need of a pick me up.


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## Rufus

JohnDee said:


> This tower will be totally transformed by the amazing Hadid. Whether they keep part of the tower or not, the whole thing will look completely different and 5th avenue will benefit. The street is in need of a pick me up.



I don't post on here often, but this comment is outrageous. 5th Ave is still just as vibrant, if not more vibrant and packed by the floods of tourists who consider it to be akin to one of their homogenous luxury malls back home, wherever that may be. It is an increasingly, frighteningly assessment that one of the world's most expensive streets is in need of a "pick-me-up" because it happens to contain a diverse array of architecture. 

Not to mention, this building is a beautiful building. As mentioned earlier, it was designed at the onset of the International Style, and the facade is glorious. Sure it may be antiquated on the interior, but a renovation should be required. Instead, we have greedy real estate pigs who consider destroying this building in favor of a sleek residential, hotel tower to be filled by oligarchs willing to use it as a money pit. Plus, as much as I love what Hadid has done, it comes with an extreme price tag. Like Gehry, Hadid's designs are great on paper, but in practice, they continue this sterilization that is so adored by the wealthy who fear of rubbing shoulders with us common folk. Look at what happened in Tokyo with the Olympic Stadium to see what reaction her designs get from the people who actually have to live around them. 

I don't mean to call you out specifically JohnDee, but I just get this feeling that a lot of people on this site refuse to recognize the power of diverse architecture in all shapes and sizes. Instead we clamor for 1,400 Ft. towers without recognizing what happens on the inside of them. Pretty soon some people on here will be calling for the destruction of Hell's Kitchen for the sake of another Hudson Yards. 

This is one development I am not for. Ok...rant over.


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## CityGuy87

Rufus said:


> I don't post on here often, but this comment is outrageous. 5th Ave is still just as vibrant, if not more vibrant and packed by the floods of tourists who consider it to be akin to one of their homogenous luxury malls back home, wherever that may be. It is an increasingly, frighteningly assessment that one of the world's most expensive streets is in need of a "pick-me-up" because it happens to contain a diverse array of architecture.
> 
> Not to mention, this building is a beautiful building. As mentioned earlier, it was designed at the onset of the International Style, and the facade is glorious. Sure it may be antiquated on the interior, but a renovation should be required. Instead, we have greedy real estate pigs who consider destroying this building in favor of a sleek residential, hotel tower to be filled by oligarchs willing to use it as a money pit. Plus, as much as I love what Hadid has done, it comes with an extreme price tag. Like Gehry, Hadid's designs are great on paper, but in practice, they continue this sterilization that is so adored by the wealthy who fear of rubbing shoulders with us common folk. Look at what happened in Tokyo with the Olympic Stadium to see what reaction her designs get from the people who actually have to live around them.
> 
> I don't mean to call you out specifically JohnDee, but I just get this feeling that a lot of people on this site refuse to recognize the power of diverse architecture in all shapes and sizes. Instead we clamor for 1,400 Ft. towers without recognizing what happens on the inside of them. Pretty soon some people on here will be calling for the destruction of Hell's Kitchen for the sake of another Hudson Yards.
> 
> This is one development I am not for. Ok...rant over.


Personally, I'd love to see Hell's Kitchen be redeveloped, I've always wanted to see towers rise west of Times Square which would greatly balance out the Midtown skyline but that's probably not gonna happen until there's nowhere left on the island to develop.


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## MarshallKnight

ThatOneGuy said:


> This is one of the first International Style skyscrapers in NY, built almost 60 years ago, and its facade is actually pretty unique. What a waste hno:


Yeah, I would be bummed to see this one go. Even a 425-style conversion would mean losing most of what makes the existing building an exemplar of that era. 

One has to wonder if it would be possible to build a supertall "addition," a larger-scale version of what's happening in historic lowrise neighborhoods. Like a bigger Hearst Tower. I guess you'd probably wind up gutting a lot of the interiors, but since those would have to be renovated anyway, it could be a good way to preserve the original exterior?



Ghostface79 said:


> Saw this earlier in the Post and my jaw dropped. Actually the Post article says it should be somewhere around 1400 ft, and designed by Zaha Hadid of all people.


I'm hesitant about a Hadid supertall in the wake of her truly hideous tower in Miami, although I did like her 425 Park proposal.

What I really can't understand is how this tower could be 1400 ft., but Tower Verre, on the same block across the street, got capped at 1050. Does one side of the street have a height limit and the other one not?


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## generalscarr

JohnDee said:


> This tower will be totally transformed by the amazing Hadid. Whether they keep part of the tower or not, the whole thing will look completely different and 5th avenue will benefit. The street is in need of a pick me up.


I like some of Zaha's lowrises a lot but every skyscraper I have seen from her so far was hideous. Including the uc Miami one and the earlier proposal for 425 Park Avenue. I'm not sure Midtown needs a supertall that looks like a designer hair dryer...


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## yankeesfan1000

It's insane that the jurisdiction of East Midtown Rezoning stops literally across the street from this building. I don't want to see this building go, but if it has to, I would much rather see a new office building, which requires a massive base which this has, as opposed to a tall skinny residential building.


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## godgame

I guess nyc wants bad architecture now, with wtc2 and now a zaha eyesore


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## t94

Definitely a bit ridiculous considering a few blocks down the street there is a smaller tower that could arguably be demolished for a ~1400 tower. Best case scenario you could preserve the facade and build the tower on top. I'm all for development, but development in the right places. Midtown calls for the highest density (especially office) density possible and demolishing a large building like this for a tower that will barely be occupied is absurd.










Might be landmarked though. Who knows. I know the developer might be going for high value property that lines fifth avenue, but I feel like there are different options that can be sought after.


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## JohnDee

t94 said:


> Definitely a bit ridiculous considering a few blocks down the street there is a smaller tower that could arguably be demolished for a ~1400 tower. Best case scenario you could preserve the facade and build the tower on top. I'm all for development, but development in the right places. Midtown calls for the highest density (especially office) density possible and demolishing a large building like this for a tower that will barely be occupied is absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Might be landmarked though. Who knows. I know the developer might be going for high value property that lines fifth avenue, but I feel like there are different options that can be sought after.



What? Why the heck would you want to preserve that ugly tower? What merit does it have? It's a dull heavy boxy tower with a plastic looking facade. That is the kind of building that ruined midtown's beauty over the decades. The best case sceneario is that it's knocked down and something modern and interesting takes it's place. 5th avenue should be an elegant street with interesting buildings, not a clone of corporate and sterile looking Park Avenue. 

How do you even know that tower is available. This might be the only building they could acquire or that it made sense to acquire financially. The developer has competition for sites and will take what he can get. It's not an open buffet.

There is nothing absurd about it. The developer will do it if it makes him a profit, period. That doesn't matter whether it's law firms or oligarchs. Offices are moving to newer buildings anyway. There is plenty of new office development over on the West Side and in Midtown East. Nothing says that 5th should have primarily offices on it if high value residential clients want to live there (or just own there) and will pay better rents.

As for all those bashing Hadid, the tower in Miami is world class/innovative avant-garde and far better than most modernist NY glass boxes that are going up everywhere and have little to catch the eye. As for your worries, I assume the tower in NY will never be as ostentatious. NY is a conservative town in terms of architecture. That is obvious, given most of the towers going up pay homage to the past in some way or else are simple modernist boxes. I expect something more toned down but still something that lights a fire under NY's architectural ass. 

I don't know why you are mentioning that beautiful old building. That's the kind of architecture we need to remain in NY, not be bought and demolished.


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## scalziand

MarshallKnight said:


> What I really can't understand is how this tower could be 1400 ft., but Tower Verre, on the same block across the street, got capped at 1050. Does one side of the street have a height limit and the other one not?


Technically, they're on different streets. This tower, being on a wide avenue is allowed smaller setbacks from the street. 53w53 is on narrow cross streets with stricter setback requirements. The 1050' limit was still kind of arbitrary though. Most of Midtown doesn't have height limits, just floor area limits.


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## JohnDee

scalziand said:


> Technically, they're on different streets. This tower, being on a wide avenue is allowed smaller setbacks from the street. 53w53 is on narrow cross streets with stricter setback requirements. The 1050' limit was still kind of arbitrary though. Most of Midtown doesn't have height limits, just floor area limits.


The tower got capped because it was subject to government review, and Amanda Burden felt she had to appease her constituency and show that she was doing something to allay their fears. Politics.

This tower is as of right ad they can build within the FAR available.


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## JohnDee

godgame said:


> I guess nyc wants bad architecture now, with wtc2 and now a zaha eyesore



This tower is bad architecture. I don't know why you like it so much, but Hadid's future work is going to be far more interesting to look at for most people.

Most people I reckon would much prefer to see an interesting Hadid facade than a dystopian 1950's heavy box with small windows.


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## ThatOneGuy

Some history of 666 Fifth Avenue
http://www.thecityreview.com/fifth666.html









Original 1957 interior by Isamu Noguchi, apart from the floors, which used to be white marble with a black and red marble grid-like pattern. They now appear to be granite.


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## JohnDee

Rufus said:


> I don't post on here often, but this comment is outrageous. 5th Ave is still just as vibrant, if not more vibrant and packed by the floods of tourists who consider it to be akin to one of their homogenous luxury malls back home, wherever that may be. It is an increasingly, frighteningly assessment that one of the world's most expensive streets is in need of a "pick-me-up" because it happens to contain a diverse array of architecture.
> 
> Not to mention, this building is a beautiful building. As mentioned earlier, it was designed at the onset of the International Style, and the facade is glorious. Sure it may be antiquated on the interior, but a renovation should be required. Instead, we have greedy real estate pigs who consider destroying this building in favor of a sleek residential, hotel tower to be filled by oligarchs willing to use it as a money pit. Plus, as much as I love what Hadid has done, it comes with an extreme price tag. Like Gehry, Hadid's designs are great on paper, but in practice, they continue this sterilization that is so adored by the wealthy who fear of rubbing shoulders with us common folk. Look at what happened in Tokyo with the Olympic Stadium to see what reaction her designs get from the people who actually have to live around them.
> 
> I don't mean to call you out specifically JohnDee, but I just get this feeling that a lot of people on this site refuse to recognize the power of diverse architecture in all shapes and sizes. Instead we clamor for 1,400 Ft. towers without recognizing what happens on the inside of them. Pretty soon some people on here will be calling for the destruction of Hell's Kitchen for the sake of another Hudson Yards.
> 
> This is one development I am not for. Ok...rant over.


Hey Ho mon, you may want that, but the economics says that many of these prime located aging mid century office blocks are on their last legs.


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## MarshallKnight

^^ Given the wording in their caption...



> Google Earth rendering of what a 1,400-foot tower could look like on the site of 666 Fifth Avenue


...I'm pretty sure that's just a mock-up somebody did using a modified version of the Miami tower. I hope so too, because that looks really messy and unpleasant to me.

I'm curious what happens in a case like this. Designs, especially this early in the game, usually wind up being modified many times, so what happens when the original architect dies? Zaha's firm could continue on with this design without her, but I have to think this might throw their existing plans into flux.

Whatever rises here, it's worth taking a moment to mourn the passing of one of architecture's great innovators. Whether or not her work was your cup of tea, it's hard to deny Zaha's impact, particularly when it comes to women in architecture.


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## desertpunk

MarshallKnight said:


> ^^ Given the wording in their caption...
> 
> 
> 
> ...I'm pretty sure that's just a mock-up somebody did using a modified version of the Miami tower. I hope so too, because that looks really messy and unpleasant to me.
> 
> I'm curious what happens in a case like this. Designs, especially this early in the game, usually wind up being modified many times, so what happens when the original architect dies? Zaha's firm could continue on with this design without her, but I have to think this might throw their existing plans into flux.
> 
> Whatever rises here, it's worth taking a moment to mourn the passing of one of architecture's great innovators. Whether or not her work was your cup of tea, it's hard to deny Zaha's impact, particularly when it comes to women in architecture.


Her design studio in London may remain active for a while as projects underway are seen to completion but Hadid was very exacting about things like pours and finishes. Someone from her studio would have to be well versed in her ways of supervising construction. Aside from that, her designs are many with proposed projects all over the world. And if those clients insist on seeing them get built no matter what, things could stay busy for many years. Her vision was so profound that I can see something like the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation emerge from her studio.


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## Ghostface79

MarshallKnight said:


> ...I'm pretty sure that's just a mock-up somebody did using a modified version of the Miami tower. I hope so too, because that looks really messy and unpleasant to me.


That's what I thought too, but who knows. It clearly wouldn't be the finished product regardless.
I do hope they do retain her firm, it would be a nice homage to the great architect she was.


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## Ghostface79

Seems like Zaha's firm will still be in charge of designing this tower. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

*Grieving and Going Forward: How Zaha Hadid’s Firm Plans to Move On*
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/arts/design/grieving-and-going-forward-how-zaha-hadids-firm-plans-to-moveon.html



> At the Hadid firm, it is falling to Patrik Schumacher, the thoughtful German who worked alongside Ms. Hadid for 28 years and was her senior partner, to pick up the pieces: keep the staff together, the work flow strong and the clients happy.* In a recent interview, he said the firm was moving forward with existing projects, including a stadium for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar; a tower in New York*; a bridge in Taipei, Taiwan; and the Iraqi Parliament.


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## CharlesSwann

http://nypost.com/2017/03/13/kushners-2-9b-condo-deal-with-chinese-insurer-moves-forward/


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## NANIS

ThatOneGuy said:


> This is one of the first International Style skyscrapers in NY, built almost 60 years ago, and its facade is actually pretty unique. What a waste hno:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's completely ridiculous to demolish skyscrapers like this when there are still dilapidated lowrises to build on.


Welcome to a lively global city with too much blood in its veins. It has been going on forever in Manhattan: the day it stopped, the mess would be even greater, because we would also lose the opportunity of getting rid of buildings truly deserving controlled demolition.
Apart from that, there doesn't seem to be that much of a problem with number "666" as there may be with "13"?


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## streetscapeer

The Zaha Hadid design from an article in today's Wall Street Journal


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## baronson

Um... that's pretty spectacular. ^^ Look at that podium! Wow.


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## LadyAmanita

Can't read the article, it's paywalled


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## germantower

I like how the tower has her characteristic elements all over it, but doesn´t overdo in details to respect the location where it is supposed to rise. I have expected something much more "striking" than this.

I hope this is what will be done.


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## CharlesSwann

Wow!!!!!!!!

It looks like they're keeping the tower, recladding it, and adding a lot more floors.


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## germantower

I wonder if they cut the towers width in order to create a square shaped footprint for the tower portion.

A rendering with the tower in skyline context would be nice.

We had the artcile about financing being secured for this, we now have a render. It smells like this one is now getting serious momentum.


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## CharlesSwann

Wow!!!!!!!!

It looks like they're keeping the tower, recladding it, and adding a lot more floors.


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## LadyAmanita

^Nice, too bad we'll lose that cool textured cladding though, it's really unique.


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## Ghostface79

Gotta see more details on that design and how it relates the the skyline. 
Makes sense that they are moving ahead with new tower, the $7.5 billion projection didn't make a whole lotta sense to me if they were just gonna develop the top floors into condos and keep the tower as is. I still think it might not be realistic in the current market, but by 2025, maybe.

For those who don't have access to the article...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/jared-kushners-white-house-role-complicates-skyscraper-deal-1490111514


> More than two years ago, Charles Kushner had a vision to convert his family’s trophy Manhattan office and retail skyscraper from a barely break-even property into a soaring 1,400-foot mixed-use skyscraper with retail, a hotel and some of the most expensive condominiums in the city.
> 
> Then Donald Trump sought—and won—the presidency, and the project got more complicated.
> 
> Mr. Kushner’s son Jared is Mr. Trump’s son-in-law and a top White House adviser, which has ethics experts warning of conflicts of interest as Kushner Cos. talks to investors about its plan for the $7.5 billion project at 666 Fifth Ave.
> 
> 
> Designed by Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid before she died last year, the tower, which would be renamed 660 Fifth Ave., would join other new slender skyscrapers redefining Manhattan’s skyline. The project would entail stripping the 60-year-old building to its steel structure and adding about 40 floors. It could take until 2025 to complete.
> 
> Extensive negotiations are under way between Kushner Cos., its partners on the building, potential investors, lenders and tenants who would have to move for the project to happen, according to people close to the discussions. New details of the company’s plans were provided to The Wall Street Journal by some of these people and confirmed by a Kushner spokesman.
> 
> Anbang Insurance Group, a big Chinese insurer with strong political and family connections to the government in Beijing, is in advanced talks to provide as much as half of the $2.5 billion in equity for the planned redevelopment, according to people close to the negotiations. But worries over a conflict of interest, given Jared Kushner’s role in the White House, could torpedo Anbang’s participation.
> 
> A rendering of what would be the new skyscraper to replace the building at 666 Fifth Ave.
> A rendering of what would be the new skyscraper to replace the building at 666 Fifth
> 
> After reports of the talks surfaced last week, Anbang said in statement that they weren’t correct. The company, which made headlines in 2015 when it purchased the Waldorf Astoria hotel in Manhattan for $1.95 billion, might decide whether or not to stay or go as early as this week, people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> “Contrary to recent reports, Anbang has no investment in 666 Fifth Avenue,” said an Anbang spokesman in an email. “Any suggestion that Anbang has signed a contract or made any kind of financial commitment is inaccurate.”
> 
> A collapse of the Anbang talks—which began last July before it was clear Mr. Trump would win the Republican nomination—wouldn’t necessarily doom the elder Mr. Kushner’s dream. Mr. Kushner believes he could raise the necessary equity from investors other than Anbang, according to people involved with negotiations.
> 
> “Kushner Cos. is in advanced, ongoing discussions around 666 Fifth Avenue,” a company spokesman said.
> 
> Mr. Trump and Jared Kushner have taken steps to insulate themselves from potential conflicts of interest. For example, Mr. Kushner has sold his personal stake in 666 Fifth Ave. and dozens of other properties to a trust controlled by other family members.
> 
> But some ethics experts have said these measures have fallen short. Meanwhile, others note that a move by Anbang to exit the talks in New York would highlight how concerns over potential conflict can imperil businesses connected to Mr. Trump and his top aides.
> 
> Mr. Kushner, who has a hand in U.S. foreign policy, might be overly influenced by Anbang if the company helps his family turn a so-so deal into a bonanza, critics suggest. A White House spokeswoman didn’t respond to a request for comment.
> 
> Kushner Cos. is trying to change the fortunes of a property that looked at one point like a disastrous investment. The company purchased it for $1.8 billion in 2007, just before the real-estate crash. By 2011, the company was struggling to make mortgage payments, raising the possibility of a default.
> 
> More than two years ago, Charles Kushner had a vision to convert his family’s trophy Manhattan office and retail skyscraper from a barely break-even property into a soaring 1,400-foot mixed-use skyscraper with retail, a hotel and some of the most expensive condominiums in the city.
> 
> Then Donald Trump sought—and won—the presidency, and the project got more complicated.
> 
> Mr. Kushner’s son Jared is Mr. Trump’s son-in-law and a top White House adviser, which has ethics experts warning of conflicts of interest as Kushner Cos. talks to investors about its plan for the $7.5 billion project at 666 Fifth Ave.
> 
> 
> Designed by Pritzker Prize-winning architect Zaha Hadid before she died last year, the tower, which would be renamed 660 Fifth Ave., would join other new slender skyscrapers redefining Manhattan’s skyline. The project would entail stripping the 60-year-old building to its steel structure and adding about 40 floors. It could take until 2025 to complete.
> 
> Extensive negotiations are under way between Kushner Cos., its partners on the building, potential investors, lenders and tenants who would have to move for the project to happen, according to people close to the discussions. New details of the company’s plans were provided to The Wall Street Journal by some of these people and confirmed by a Kushner spokesman.
> 
> Anbang Insurance Group, a big Chinese insurer with strong political and family connections to the government in Beijing, is in advanced talks to provide as much as half of the $2.5 billion in equity for the planned redevelopment, according to people close to the negotiations. But worries over a conflict of interest, given Jared Kushner’s role in the White House, could torpedo Anbang’s participation.
> 
> After reports of the talks surfaced last week, Anbang said in statement that they weren’t correct. The company, which made headlines in 2015 when it purchased the Waldorf Astoria hotel in Manhattan for $1.95 billion, might decide whether or not to stay or go as early as this week, people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> “Contrary to recent reports, Anbang has no investment in 666 Fifth Avenue,” said an Anbang spokesman in an email. “Any suggestion that Anbang has signed a contract or made any kind of financial commitment is inaccurate.”
> 
> A collapse of the Anbang talks—which began last July before it was clear Mr. Trump would win the Republican nomination—wouldn’t necessarily doom the elder Mr. Kushner’s dream. Mr. Kushner believes he could raise the necessary equity from investors other than Anbang, according to people involved with negotiations.
> 
> “Kushner Cos. is in advanced, ongoing discussions around 666 Fifth Avenue,” a company spokesman said.
> 
> Mr. Trump and Jared Kushner have taken steps to insulate themselves from potential conflicts of interest. For example, Mr. Kushner has sold his personal stake in 666 Fifth Ave. and dozens of other properties to a trust controlled by other family members.
> 
> But some ethics experts have said these measures have fallen short. Meanwhile, others note that a move by Anbang to exit the talks in New York would highlight how concerns over potential conflict can imperil businesses connected to Mr. Trump and his top aides.
> 
> Mr. Kushner, who has a hand in U.S. foreign policy, might be overly influenced by Anbang if the company helps his family turn a so-so deal into a bonanza, critics suggest. A White House spokeswoman didn’t respond to a request for comment.
> 
> Kushner Cos. is trying to change the fortunes of a property that looked at one point like a disastrous investment. The company purchased it for $1.8 billion in 2007, just before the real-estate crash. By 2011, the company was struggling to make mortgage payments, raising the possibility of a default.
> 
> As Charles Kushner has explained his vision, the value of 666 Fifth Ave., between 52nd and 53rd streets, was in “the dirt” and not the actual building, according to people familiar with his thinking. By greatly increasing its height and quadrupling its retail space, Kushner Cos. believes it can turn the property into a signature development that would be worth as much as $12 billion, according to people familiar with the plans.
> 
> Preserving only a portion of the existing inner steel also would enable Kushner Cos. to build 1.45 million square feet “as of right,” meaning it wouldn’t need extensive city approvals, according to people familiar with the plans. The first nine floors of the new tower would include retail, entertainment and dining space. The building also would include an 11-story hotel and 464,000 square feet of residential space.
> 
> Kushner Cos. believes the residential portion of the project would succeed at roughly $6,000 a square foot, which would place it near the top of the current market for ultraluxury condos. The company is confident the condos would sell at that price or higher because they wouldn’t be hitting the market until more than seven years from now, said people familiar with the plans.
> 
> Among the challenges facing Kushner Cos.: It also must cut a deal to buy out Vornado Realty Trust Inc., a real estate investment trust that is its partner on 666 Fifth Ave.’s office space and the owner of most of the property’s retail space. Those talks are under way, people said. A Vornado spokesman declined to comment.
> 
> Charles Kushner also would have to buy out current tenants in the building, who would have to move before demolition could start. And he would have to refinance the existing $1.15 billion of debt on the building.
> 
> If all goes well, Mr. Kushner hopes to close all the pieces of the deal sometime in the second half of this year, according to people familiar with the plans and negotiations. Demolition would likely start in late 2019 and construction in mid-2021, depending partly on how long it takes to vacate the property, the people said.
> 
> Some of the financial benefits to Kushner Cos. could come this year. But the family would reinvest about $500 million of what would be its profit from the new equity investment and the recapitalization of its debt, people said. The amount it would be able to put in its pocket would be in the hundreds of millions of dollars, but that is still being negotiated, the people said.
> 
> The bigger benefit would come to the family if the new tower is built and hits the hoped-for $12 billion value. Under the plan, Kushner Cos. would have a 20% stake in that, the people said.
> 
> Negotiations with Anbang began after the Chinese company reached out to Jared Kushner, according to people familiar with the negotiations. Since then Mr. Wu has met in New York with Charles Kushner multiple times, according to the people.
> 
> 
> At the time, Anbang was particularly interested in the project because it had lost out to competitors on other Manhattan properties, according to a person familiar with the missed deals.
> 
> “We’ve done a few deals, but we’ve lost many more,” Theo Cheng, Anbang’s head of real estate, said during a panel discussion at an industry conference in France. Before the panel, Mr. Cheng declined to comment on 666 Fifth Ave.


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## MarshallKnight

streetscapeer said:


>


I'm astonished at how long it too me to orient myself with that render (facing west from basically Madison). Obviously there will be no plaza to the East of the building as depicted here, as there's a whole block of towers in the way.

Anyway, this is certainly a spectacular design. Very different for New York, but not so radically out there that I can't see it fitting in. When viewed head on, it reminds me of a kitchen whisk.

I really wish we had an angle showing the North/South profile, because the actual shape of the tower isn't totally clear. Is the North/South side going to be longer than the East/West side like the current building... 










...or is the whole thing getting slimmed down to a "whisk-like" cylinder on top of the large base? _Or_ will the extant office tower essentially keep its current proportions, with the cylindrical residential component stacked on top on the 5th Avenue end of the building?


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## enrigue8

Please build that !


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## JuanPaulo

Wow. Just wow! :cheers:


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## germantower

high resolution version of the render.








Copyright by: https://twitter.com/morninggloria


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## TheIllinoisan

It is far too soon to reasonably judge this proposal. The render depicts one side out of four. This one render shows an interesting looking design, but until more renders are released it would be a terrible folly to make any sort of definitive judgement of this proposed design...


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## Twopsy

The price tag of $7.5 billion seems far out of proportion. That's five times the extimated costs of Burj Khalifa. I know they do not have cheap workers from Pakistan in the US like in the UAE, but it is still expensive compared to other projects in New York.

Maybe $7.5 billion really include demolishing the neighbouring block like in the rendering and buy all of its air rights to make the tower even bigger. Only in New York it could make sense financially to demolish a whole block just for its air rights, as air rights could be more valuable than those buildings.


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## MarshallKnight

*NEW YORK | 666 5th Avenue | 427m | 1400ft | ? fl | Pro*

...consider that this will include one of the largest and (one would expect) most luxurious shopping malls in Manhattan, smack dab on its most iconic high end shopping strip... plus a large office component in an area starved for modern Class A space... plus 40 floors of top end luxury condos, rising well above any of its neighbors for spectacular city and presumably even park views.

A building with any one of those components would be worth a couple billion. This will have all three.

Edit: Misspoke about $7.5bn being the potential valuation instead of the construction cost. The above points are still true and of note with regard to the overall value of the tower (which Twopsy points out Kushner is hoping will reach as much as $12bn)


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## Twopsy

MarshallKnight said:


> ^^ It's not $7.5bn in costs, but rather the potential valuation of the building once completed.
> 
> Even then it seems a little high, but consider that this will include one of the largest and (one would expect) most luxurious shopping malls in Manhattan, smack dab on its most iconic high end shopping strip... plus a large office component in an area starved for modern Class A space... plus 40 floors of top end luxury condos, rising well above any of its neighbors for spectacular city and presumably even park views.
> 
> A building with any one of those components would be worth a couple billion. This will have all three.


No, the article quotes a "$7.5 billion project". That means that it will cost that much. 

Further down in the article you can read how much they hope it will be worth: 



> The bigger benefit would come to the family if the new tower is built and hits the hoped-for $12 billion value.


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## CharlesSwann

The predicted condo sell out at $6k per square foot is conservative. It's a lot less than the average price per square foot achieved at 432 Park.


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## MarshallKnight

Twopsy said:


> No, the article quotes a "$7.5 billion project". That means that it will cost that much.
> 
> 
> 
> Further down in the article you can read how much they hope it will be worth:



Oh crap, yeah there it is, my bad.

I agree, that's a hard number to wrap my mind around.


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## SMCYB

Huffington Post takes a comical approach to the story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kushner-skyscraper-glass-*****_us_58d22b6de4b0b22b0d181a9b?

"Kushner Family Wants To Erect A Skyscraper That Looks Just Like A Pen**
'The building will be named ‘Overcompensating,’ one comedian quips.

The company owned by the family of Jared Kushner, President Donald Trump’s son-in-law and senior White House advisor, has unveiled plans for a makeover of a New York City building.

The Wall Street Journal said Tuesday that Kushner’s role in the White House is complicating the process due to the potential for conflicts of interest, even though he has sold his stake in this and other family owned properties. 

But the possible conflicts aren’t getting nearly as much attention as the building’s design, which Twitter users say is unmistakably phallic."

_(followed by people's twitter comments about the building's design)_


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## Twopsy

Why do people always say that cylindrical buildings look phallic? It is much too thin for that.

Look what the Americans built in Berlin during the cold war:









(credit: https://www.instagram.com/skyscraperfan)

That buildings only looks phallic from this perspective, but 660 Fifth Avenue does not look phallic at all.


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## Ghostface79

The $7.5 Billion figure is actually what the project would be worth. And $12 Billion what the Kushners hope it will be worth in the end. 
I find it hard to justify either valuation at this time , especially the latter. 
No way construction cost would amount to $7.5 Billion for that tower, even in NYC. 

From the Real Deal last week...

https://therealdeal.com/2017/03/20/paydirt-i-got-666-problems-and-the-deal-for-this-tower-is-one/


> If that’s the philosophy they applied to 666 Fifth Avenue, then I am bamboozled by why they’d want to invest at the numbers discussed. According to Bloomberg’s story last Monday, Anbang agreed to cough up $400 million to Kushner Companies, allowing it to take a big chunk of their money off the table while still maintaining a 20 percent stake in the tower. Further, it agreed to take on the burden of redeveloping the property, adding luxury condos and revamping the retail in an undertaking that would seek a construction loan of $4 billion. No typo there.
> 
> We tried to wrap our heads around that number. A $4 billion construction loan would be the largest of its kind by a huge margin.
> 
> The property is estimated on potential investor documents to be worth $7.2 billion post-redevelopment – that’s more than twice the valuation of the GM Building, America’s most valuable office tower, and more than twice the projected sellout of 220 CPS. To make those numbers a reality, one developer in the know told me that Kushner and Anbang would have to underwrite the condos at an average of up to $9,000 per square foot.
> 
> If this is a political gambit for Wu — or if he is acting as a proxy for the Chinese government — all bets are off. (It’s worth noting that the Chinese government has in no uncertain terms told insurers to pull back on overseas investments.) He is looking to take Anbang public in Hong Kong and eventually take a crack at the U.S. capital markets, and it’s possible he feels a deal on 666 would help him rack up clout with the Trump administration – clout he could parlay into power back home. But as a pure-play real estate deal, the numbers are ludicrous.
> 
> Could it be that having news of an impending deal out there but with some degree of uncertainty – Anbang has denied any investment – serves as a call to action for other investors to come to Kushner Companies with offers at more realistic terms? I can’t figure this one out.


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## CharlesSwann

http://archidose.blogspot.com/2017/03/wheres-nouvel.html?m=1


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## streetscapeer

http://archidose.blogspot.com/2017/03/wheres-nouvel.html

*Where's Nouvel?*




> Today a rendering of Zaha Hadid Architects' design for the redesign/extension of Kushner Companies' 666 Fifth Avenue in Midtown Manhattan has been making its rounds in many of the usual places. The 1,400-foot-tall tower, if built, would sit prominently on Fifth Avenue between 52nd and 53rd Streets, about a half-block from the Museum of Modern Art.
> 
> Which made me wonder: Where is Jean Nouvel's 53W53 in the rendering? Now under construction, the 1,050-foot-tall skyscraper will tower over Cesar Pelli's Museum Tower, which is visible to the right of ZHA's tower. So in the interest of seeing how these two supertalls designed by celebrity architects would interact, I Photoshopped a side elevation of Nouvel's tower into ZHA's rendering:


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## ThatOneGuy

Wow that view will be wonderful with Verre in the background.


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## germantower

If this tower gets build and I think it will, then the reasoning for Verres height cut makes even less sense than it already does.

I also wonder how can they add 40 floors ontop of an already existing foundation? It implies that the currently existing foundation was done to support more than the tower that just sits on it.


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## CharlesSwann

I speculate that the addition will be another pencil tower and that it does not extend nearly as far west as the current tower does.

As far as Verre, that required city approval to transfer air rights from noncontiguous parcels. This must be as of right because the city would not approve such a tall tower.


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## Hudson11

Tower Verre was proposed too early. We're lucky it's even being built at all, given how many projects the economic crisis killed.


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## uakoops

Looks like a giant tampon...


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## Twopsy

germantower said:


> If this tower gets build and I think it will, then the reasoning for Verres height cut makes even less sense than it already does.
> 
> I also wonder how can they add 40 floors ontop of an already existing foundation? It implies that the currently existing foundation was done to support more than the tower that just sits on it.


The new tower will be taller, but not much heavier. So they just have to make sure that the weight of the new tower will be balanced on the whole existing foundation and not just at the center below the new slim tower.


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## germantower

CharlesSwann said:


> I speculate that the addition will be another pencil tower and that it does not extend nearly as far west as the current tower does.
> 
> As far as Verre, that required city approval to transfer air rights from noncontiguous parcels. This must be as of right because the city would not approve such a tall tower.


But the reasoning for Verres heigh cut was "we don´t want something THAT tall to be SO CLOSE to the Empire State Building". IIRC 15 Penn Plaza was still a hot thing back then. So it even makes less and less sense at all.


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## CharlesSwann

Not surprisingly, Anbang backed out due to the political fall out with Trump's son-in-law, who, nonetheless, is seeking other partners.


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## Ghostface79

Not surprising indeed. 
That said, after seeing this rendering, I hope the Kushners get back down to earth and get this project moving.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/29/nyregion/talks-end-between-kushners-and-chinese-company.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/









A pure beauty. I approve!!


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## streetscapeer

Crawford said:


> NY Post has additional details about the planned tower:
> 
> Sitting on the full blockfront between West 52nd and 53rd streets, Kushner will in five to seven years offer residences with unimpeded views.
> 
> Pricing would be around $6,000 per square foot, comparable to the mid-top of the current market.
> 
> A 94-key, seven-star hotel with banquet rooms would sit above a nine-level retail podium designed for small shops and topped by a food hall.
> 
> http://nypost.com/2017/03/28/chinese-investor-backs-out-of-kushner-companies-project/
> 
> To me, the biggest takeaway is the planned nine levels of retail. Wow!











https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/...any.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/



NYguy said:


> More from that NY Times article...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Fifth Avenue is synonymous with luxury and opulence of the highest standards in the world,” Mr. Kushner wrote in a brochure for the project. “This design will transform Fifth Avenue in a city that is continuously reinventing itself.”
> 
> .....Mr. Kushner and his father Charles began showing potential investors a “white book,” which laid out their vision for tearing down the blocky building to make way for the much taller, glassier skyscraper designed by Ms. Hadid.
> 
> *The book portrayed a tower made up of a 9-story retail base, an 8-story, 150-room hotel, 55 stories of ultra-luxury condominiums, topped by a sky deck. *
> 
> The Kushners also renamed the tower 660 Fifth, casting aside the “666” reference that some people may connect with the number for Satan in the Bible’s Book of Revelations.
> 
> 
> 
> https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/...any.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/
Click to expand...


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## CharlesSwann

Very nice!

I was expecting a pencil tower.


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## germantower

The facade details on the first three floors of this building remind me of the tridents on the twin towers. Hopefully Kushner will proceed with this tower. I have expected something very different from Zaha, but she delivered something much better than what I have expected. Her design actually respects it´s location, while still having her own style written all over it.


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## Chad

Looks like she just derived from heaven


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## nyc15

streetscapeer said:


> https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/...any.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/


what height will have this building ??


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## germantower

^^ A slight hint: read the thread title properly.


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## questionvisao

awesome! hihihi


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## geoking66

I'm as big of a Zaha Hadid fan as you can get but something about this design just doesn't work for me. Glad that Anbang has backed out, though; as much as I try to keep away from politics here, I never want to see Kushner have success.


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## spectre000

geoking66 said:


> I never want to see Kushner have success.



+1


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## CharlesSwann

geoking66 said:


> I'm as big of a Zaha Hadid fan as you can get but something about this design just doesn't work for me. Glad that Anbang has backed out, though; as much as I try to keep away from politics here, I never want to see Kushner have success.


I'm no fan of Kushy either, but I'm eager to have a 1,400' Zaha with a sloped, peaked top, and a stunning façade. I look forward to news about other financial backers. I could see Related coming on board.


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## towerpower123

wrong building...


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## germantower

^^ I think you took pictures from a completly different building. I see the Chrysler looming behind the depicted tower. No where that is on 5th avenue at all. 

Edit. If they cut the building, I wonder how they are going to distribute the load on the foundation properly. I am still kinda feeling that foundations are sometimes done to support more then they need to.


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## towerpower123

Yeah, I managed to get the Socony Mobil Building which is 10 blocks south.
666 Fifth Avenue itself has some serious bulk as well.








https://www.propertyshark.com/Real-Estate-Reports/2011/04/14/10-biggest-commercial-nyc-transactions-in-q1-2011/


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## germantower

^^ I like how the Zaha redesign will add a lot of new texture and detail to the ground floors of the tower and give that strecth new character. It currently just looks dull and mundane. Same applies for the remodification of that tower on Madison or Lexington avenue. Hopefully more of such buidlings will be redone and they add small sized shops in the base. Because that and details details is what makes a city vibrant and lively, not huge footrpint occupying blocks of towers that only have a lobby entrance.


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## CharlesSwann

germantower said:


> ^^ I like how the Zaha redesign will add a lot of new texture and detail to the ground floors of the tower and give that strecth new character. It currently just looks dull and mundane. Same applies for the remodification of that tower on Madison or Lexington avenue. Hopefully more of such buidlings will be redone and they add small sized shops in the base. Because that and details details is what makes a city vibrant and lively, not huge footrpint occupying blocks of towers that only have a lobby entrance.


I agree, German.


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## Dale

geoking66 said:


> I'm as big of a Zaha Hadid fan as you can get but something about this design just doesn't work for me. Glad that Anbang has backed out, though; as much as I try to keep away from politics here, I never want to see Kushner have success.


Why, do you hate liberals ?


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## Manitopiaaa

Dale said:


> Why, do you hate liberals ?


I would assume it's because Kushner is part of the chaotic and failed Administration currently in place.


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## Dale

Manitopiaaa said:


> I would assume it's because Kushner is part of the chaotic and failed Administration currently in place.


Haha!


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## CharlesSwann




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## germantower

They seem to have tow design options for this tower. One with less arches on the base and a rather phalus like shaped top, and one with more details and arches on the base and a rather setbacky top treatment. The second design option also has a more interesting mall entrance treatment, it looks like it sucks people into the base. Hopefully the latter will be done.


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## hotwheels123

The Devil's in the Details for Kushner Companies' 666 Fifth Avenue



> Originally purchased by Kushner Companies in 2007, the 60-year-old office tower located at 666 Fifth Avenue in Midtown Manhattan has long been the dream project of convicted felon and current real estate magnate Charles Kushner. As father to Jared Kushner, the spouse to 'First Daughter' Ivanka Trump, the elder Kushner's landmark redevelopment project has been caught in limbo as investors await a final decision on any potential conflicts of interest that could arise now that the Kushner name has become directly linked to the Presidency.


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## TheHypeIsReal

For everybody here, please remain civil.
If you guys want to argue about politics, go do it somewhere else.
This forum is about skyscrapers and architecture and this thread is about 666 5th avenue. So let's keep the discussions here on this building and the news surrounding. 

Speaking of which, I think Zaha Hadid is a brilliant architect and I think this is one of her better works. I think this proposal, if built, will look absolutely beautiful.


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## geoking66

josh85 said:


> The current building is a hulking turd.
> 
> The Zaha design across the street from St Thomas would be iconic.
> 
> This tower has a pretty high vacancy rate, so something's gonna have to be done to it when the financials get sorted out.


Any office without a specific tenant in mind is simply not viable at this point in the cycle, particularly around here. Vacancy is about to spike and there's no organic demand from traditional users.

To be honest, and I say this as a giant Zaha Hadid fan, I really don't like the design so I don't mind if it doesn't come to fruition. It feels...imbalanced.


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## JohnFlint1985

CharlesSwann said:


>


not a bad design. and it is a good height for this place


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## germantower

geoking66 said:


> Any office without a specific tenant in mind is simply not viable at this point in the cycle, particularly around here. Vacancy is about to spike and there's no organic demand from traditional users.
> 
> To be honest, and I say this as a giant Zaha Hadid fan, I really don't like the design so I don't mind if it doesn't come to fruition. It feels...imbalanced.


How is this design imbalanced?

Edit: the sad fact if this gets build is, that Verre would lose every possible significance in the skyline.


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## droneriot

The bottom half of the design is so very 60s sci-fi, like something from the original Star Trek series, or for those of you nerdy enough to know such things, something from Space Patrol Orion.


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## Hudson11

dead.

*Kushners ‘Negotiating Now,’ Over Sale of Flagship Building*



> *Mr. Kushner acknowledged that he had abandoned plans to demolish the existing aluminum-clad office tower to make way for an 80-story, ultraluxury skyscraper designed by the architect Zaha Hadid. *The tower was to include a lush retail mall, a high-end hotel and the pricey apartments, at a prime location in the city.
> 
> That will not be built, he said on Monday. “It’s definitely not a knockdown,” Mr. Kushner said. “It’s definitely not the original plan.”
> 
> So what is going to happen?
> 
> “We don’t know what we’re going to do,” he said. “We’re weighing our options.”


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## ThatOneGuy

On one hand, the Zaha design was nice. On the other, I'm glad this mid-century modern tower won't be demolished.


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## Thorondor

I really liked this design and was looking forward to it! Hoping another site is chosen without the need for demolishing such a tall existing skyscraper. Probably won't be the same design, but maybe something of the same caliber.


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## LadyAmanita

ThatOneGuy said:


> On one hand, the Zaha design was nice. On the other, I'm glad this mid-century modern tower won't be demolished.


Me too, There's just something so likeable about this building


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## germantower

I am sad the Zaha tower wont be build, it was truely magnificant.


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## Hudson11

Brookfield's renovation continues apace.









660 Fifth Avenue's New Glass Façade Continues Installation in Midtown, Manhattan - New York YIMBY


The re-cladding of 660 Fifth Avenue and interior overhaul designed by Kohn Pedersen Fox for Brookfield Properties continues in Midtown, Manhattan



newyorkyimby.com


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## MarshallKnight

Someone should change the thread title. Any replacement for this building is dead for the foreseeable future.


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## A Chicagoan

I’m pretty sure I saw this building under renovation when I was in New York last April.


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