# NBA Europe



## Mr. Met (Jan 9, 2008)

When NBA commissioner David Stern announced his ambitions to put a permanent NBA Division in Europe, he said that the main thing in the way was a lack of NBA arenas. What cities have what is considered an NBA arena and what cities are planning to or building these arenas?


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## RobH (Mar 9, 2007)

Well, London has The O2 which can be used for basketball. I don't know how practical that would be for regular games though.


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## anaiptol (Oct 6, 2007)

BERLIN - O2 Arena (15,500) 
BELGRADE - Beogradska Arena (19,982)
KAUNAS - Kaunas Arena (14,500)
PRAGUE - O2 Arena(fromer Sazka)(16,805)
ISTANBUL - Fenerbahçe Arena (15,000) 
ZAGREB - Zagreb Arena (16,500)
KOLN - Köln Arena

these might fit...

As for London and Prague - they don't have any decent basketball clubs, so they probably fall out.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

anaiptol said:


> As for London and Prague - they don't have any decent basketball clubs, so they probably fall out.


What does having a decent club have to do with anything, they would be independent stand alone NBA expansion franchises, and i'm sure the market in London is far more attractive than that of a Balkan or Baltic nation regardless of how passionate the fans are for the sports.. money talks!

And how many of those arenas you posted are up to NBA standards, with adequate corporate and media facilities???


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## anaiptol (Oct 6, 2007)

So NBA Europe is just NBA played in Europe, not European clubs playing NBA clubs? Sorry then, my mistake.

All of those arenas are either new or u/c. The Istanbul one is going to start soon. So.. Imo, they should all be up to the standarts. Anyway, if it's only NBA played in Europe, then nobody cares...


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## Mr. Met (Jan 9, 2008)

I did mean NBA teams in Europe


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## DinoVabec (Nov 12, 2007)

anaiptol said:


> BERLIN - O2 Arena (15,500)
> BELGRADE - Beogradska Arena (19,982)
> KAUNAS - Kaunas Arena (14,500)
> PRAGUE - O2 Arena(fromer Sazka)(16,805)
> ...


Zagreb Arena is opened...And it looks amazing...It would be great to see NBA here...


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

I figure at least five to six teams would have to form a new division in order to make it work. What cities are the most likely?

What about....

Madrid
Barcelona
Milan
Rome
London? (not sure if there is enough fandom to make work)
Athens? 
Berlin?

I think any home arena's would at least have to be 17,500-18,000+


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

nomarandlee said:


> I figure at least five to six teams would have to form a new division in order to make it work. What cities are the most likely?
> 
> What about....
> 
> ...



You'd only need 4 teams, 2 expansion and 2 relocations, then divisions could be re aligned like the NFL, 8 divisions of 4.

and trust me London would work massive expat american community, and regularl free to air NBA coverage, and a city of 7 million, in a media market of 20 million+(60 million if you count the UK as one market, which it really is), i think London could handle a franchise, it would be more like the UKs team though


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## Jerv (Dec 7, 2004)

Manchester, UK MEN arena capacity around 18,000 for basketball


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## Stifler (Apr 11, 2006)

You don't need only a 15,000-20,000 arena, but one with NBA standards and a market able to make it profitable.

Madrid, Barcelona, London, Paris, Milan, Rome, Athens or Istambul are some of the possible options.


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## Mr. Met (Jan 9, 2008)

by NBA standards, we are talking about seating, luxury boxes, press boxes, etc.


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## www.sercan.de (Aug 10, 2003)

TBF President talked about it.
As far as i remeber he said that you need a +15,000 modern arena.

Belgrade
Belgrade Arena (19.982) - 66 suites

London
The O2 arena (18,689) - 96 suites

Cologne
Lanxess Arena (18,500) - 60 suites

Prague
o2 Arena / Sazka Arena (17,360) - 70 suites

Zagreb
Arena Zagreb (16,500) - 14 suites

Berlin
O2 World (15,500) - 59 suites


Athens and Istanbul will have new arena. But i do not know if they will be +15k


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## Jerv (Dec 7, 2004)

www.sercan.de said:


> TBF President talked about it.
> As far as i remeber he said that you need a +15,000 modern arena.
> 
> Belgrade
> ...



So would the MEN arena make the cut?


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## www.sercan.de (Aug 10, 2003)

Actually i don't know about MEN.
I wrote a mail to them and asked about the basketball capacity.
They said its 13,800 (or something)


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## Jerv (Dec 7, 2004)

www.sercan.de said:


> Actually i don't know about MEN.
> I wrote a mail to them and asked about the basketball capacity.
> They said its 13,800 (or something)


Well considering they used to get 17,500 for ice hockey games when manchester storm played there, I don't think 13,800 is correct.


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## www.sercan.de (Aug 10, 2003)

Therefore i asked them again yesterday. 
But still no answer


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## Aiwa (May 8, 2005)

The architect of Kaunas Arena said that if it is needed it would be posible to expand the arena for over 15000 places. And suits number in Kaunas will be pretty much BIG - 78.
And media market would be: city of over 1 million (Dipolis), over 3 million in LT and over 7 million in Baltic states. We allready have team - Zalgiris which is like all Lithuania team.


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## CorliCorso (May 4, 2005)

www.sercan.de said:


> Therefore i asked them again yesterday.
> But still no answer


The Wikipedia article on the MEN arena gives its capacity for basketball as 20,500. The Manchester Magic once got over 14,000 for a game, although in truth there isn't the interest to make a team at the MEN sustainable.


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## DinoVabec (Nov 12, 2007)

All those Arenas are ok...But if you want see 15 000 + visitors in those arenas, you need a basketball team good enough for NBA...Because nobody will go watch teams which can't win...If you know what I mean...


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

Mr. Met said:


> When NBA commissioner David Stern announced his ambitions to put a permanent NBA Division in Europe, he said that the main thing in the way was a lack of NBA arenas. What cities have what is considered an NBA arena and what cities are planning to or building these arenas?


 That will never happen here... sports mentality is just different. To Olympiacos (richest Euro team) game against PAO is 10x more important and bigger than game against Lakers... At least it wouldn't happen with current teams. Only way it could happen it would be with completely new formed teams.

Apart from London and perhaps in Berlin (with one big maybe) i don't see fans abandoning their old teams. Especially not in Athens, Belgrade, Istanbul, Moscow or any other city that has Arena required. As for Arenas... Berlin, London, Belgrade, Zagreb, Kaunas, Moscow, Madrid, Barcelona, Athens, Istanbul, Koln, Hamburg, Prague and thats about it... perhaps i missed 1 or 2.


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## Ballota (Oct 24, 2005)

Split?


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

Ballota said:


> Split?


 First finish in top10 in NLB league once in 5 years


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## Ballota (Oct 24, 2005)

We're talking about the infrastructure here, not results. :tongue3:


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> Apart from London and perhaps in Berlin (with one big maybe) i don't see fans abandoning their old teams. Especially not in Athens, Belgrade, Istanbul, Moscow or any other city that has Arena required. .



To be honest I don't think any of those cities would be well considered candidate for the immediate future (2-10 years) anyhow. It could possibly apply to the Spanish and Italian cases though.


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## en1044 (May 4, 2008)

i dont think it would be smart to have the teams too far in eastern europe. remember that some players are going to have to fly a very very long time to get to some of these cities. Anything past Germany should be out of the question. If i had to pick 4 cities it would be London, Paris, Madrid, and Berlin. You have to pick big name cities because the home fan base in the US would have to stay interested, and honestly a lot of them wont care about a team thats somewhere thats not notable. I dont think this is ever going to happen. Think about if one of the European teams were in the playoffs and how they would have to travel back and forth. It just wouldnt work.


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## Mr. Met (Jan 9, 2008)

What about Athens, also you mentioned playoffs, leagues are generous with travel days so it shouldn't be an issue, plus both teams need to make the transatlantic journey


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## DennisRodman97 (Jul 12, 2007)

This is unlikely to happen....what the NBA can do is create NBA Europe where top europeans clubs compete and the NBA can make money from that. NBA already created NBA China...10% of all current NBA revenue comes from china.....thats not counting the soon to be created NBA china. Creating NBA Europe the NBA will own about 50% while the europeans 50%......I think a team flying from boston or L.A to play a playoff game in paris or berlin is ridiculous.


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## DennisRodman97 (Jul 12, 2007)

Wikipedia: Another nickname for Bologna, Italy is the Basket City, referring to Bologna's obsession with basketball, which is somewhat unusual in football-dominated Italy. The local derby between the city's two principal basketball clubs, Fortitudo and Virtus (often called after the clubs' principal sponsors), is intense,

Hot basketball spots like Bologna, italy will make a good NBA Europe team 



























^^Virtus bologna games


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## Bori427 (Jan 6, 2007)

Brits are pretty bad at basketball right?


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## DennisRodman97 (Jul 12, 2007)

Using the Euroleague to create NBA Europe they can create a league of 20 teams from spain (2 teams), italy(2 teams), lithuania, russia(2), croatia, serbia, germany, france, greece(2), czech rep, slovenia, turkey, israel, latvia, ukraine


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

en1044 said:


> i dont think it would be smart to have the teams too far in eastern europe. remember that some players are going to have to fly a very very long time to get to some of these cities. Anything past Germany should be out of the question. If i had to pick 4 cities it would be London, Paris, Madrid, and Berlin. You have to pick big name cities because the home fan base in the US would have to stay interested, and honestly a lot of them wont care about a team thats somewhere thats not notable. I dont think this is ever going to happen. Think about if one of the European teams were in the playoffs and how they would have to travel back and forth. It just wouldnt work.


What? the flying times from the east coast of the USA to the west are comparable with flying to Europe. 1 or 2 hours difference is nothing. 

If they were in the playoffs they'd never have to travel further east than chicago as they'd be in the eastern conference.. A schedule could easily be produced which is robust. The days rest between games for flying... it's not difficult!


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## en1044 (May 4, 2008)

bigbossman said:


> What? the flying times from the east coast of the USA to the west are comparable with flying to Europe. 1 or 2 hours difference is nothing.
> 
> If they were in the playoffs they'd never have to travel further east than chicago as they'd be in the eastern conference.. A schedule could easily be produced which is robust. The days rest between games for flying... it's not difficult!


well...um...no.

The west coast of the US is 3 hours behind the east coast. The time difference isnt really a big deal, but trust me, it has an effect on the players. Eastern players hate having to take a west coast road trip and vice versa. London is 5 hours ahead of the US east coast. Thats a significant difference. It would create problems with viewing the game on TV and would be a pain overall. Now, if a west coast team was playing in London, thats 8 hours. You dont think thats significant? It simply cant be done, even with rest days to acclimate to the time difference, because eventually they will have to go back and deal with the time problem all over again. And viewing those games would again, be extremely difficult for the fans in the US. You cant allow for rest days either. Being that the NBA works on an 82 game schedule there simply wouldnt be any time to allow it. And you especially couldnt do it in the playoffs...they last long enough as it is. To sum up, the idea for the NBA to expand into Europe is just that- an idea. And not even a good one. Its far fetched and outrageous. Players wouldnt stand for it and the NBA would get themselves into a whole lot of trouble if they even seriously considered it. Sorry, but its very, very far from simple. In fact, it might be one of the harder things i can think of trying.


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

en1044 said:


> well...um...no.
> 
> The west coast of the US is 3 hours behind the east coast. The time difference isnt really a big deal, but trust me, it has an effect on the players. Eastern players hate having to take a west coast road trip and vice versa. London is 5 hours ahead of the US east coast. Thats a significant difference. It would create problems with viewing the game on TV and would be a pain overall. Now, if a west coast team was playing in London, thats 8 hours. You dont think thats significant? It simply cant be done, even with rest days to acclimate to the time difference, because eventually they will have to go back and deal with the time problem all over again. And viewing those games would again, be extremely difficult for the fans in the US. You cant allow for rest days either. Being that the NBA works on an 82 game schedule there simply wouldnt be any time to allow it. And you especially couldnt do it in the playoffs...they last long enough as it is. To sum up, the idea for the NBA to expand into Europe is just that- an idea. And not even a good one. Its far fetched and outrageous. Players wouldnt stand for it and the NBA would get themselves into a whole lot of trouble if they even seriously considered it. Sorry, but its very, very far from simple. In fact, it might be one of the harder things i can think of trying.


 I don't agree it can't be done. East-West U.S. takes 5.5-6.5 hours flying. East coast-London takes around 7-8 hours. Not a major difference. As long as you have teams make their Atlantic road trips a block of games and have four in a row in Europe it could be done without much headache. Then you have European teams come over here and play in blocks of 4-5 game stretches in regions so as to cut down on travel. 

Most US-European games played in Europe would likely be played during their night and our day time and U.S.-Europe games based in the U.S. would be best for early day starts and weekend games when possible.

Heck, the time travel and adjustments couldn't be any worse then when professional players use to travel across the country to play ball games every few days by train. By comparison modern day Atlantic travel is a breeze. It is not like players are sucking it up in coach. If a player is really that averse to it then sign up with a western conference team which only would have to make the Euro trip once per year or so.

The marketing potential and intrigue in letting large Euro markets is likely worth it in my opinion.


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

Instead of creating hybrid leagues and ruining 2 which are doing just fine at the moment they should rather make "final 4" or even "final 8" tournament. One year it would be played in Europe, next year in USA and so on... No traveling, no time zone issues for players... Euroleague would obviously send final 4 participants (finalists or all 4, depending on size of the tournament) and NBA would send division finalists. It would be great, it would work and i'm sure there would be tons of interes in it.


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## berkshire royal (Jun 11, 2008)

Bori427 said:


> Brits are pretty bad at basketball right?


From what I have read we’re getting better, we just qualified for the European Championships for first time in something like 20+ years and there was a newspaper report on a guy who plays in the NBA who is supposed to be a star and it also said there are ½ others in the NBA who could play for the UK but are undecided at the moment as to whether they would be interested in playing for the UK.

The sport isn't popular in terms of viewing and attending, but it is quite popular in some parts of the country in terms of kids playing (especially London) the problem is that until recently there was no infrastructure in this country for basketball what so ever. The sport doesn’t get much coverage and isn’t advertised much, the good kids quite often go unnoticed because they don't join their local club because they are not aware of it and because of this no pro teams know about them and they go unnoticed. Having a team in London is common sense though, it has one of the most modern arenas in Europe, it is one of the biggest cities in Europe and it definitely would help to improve the popularity of the sport. 

Also it wouldn’t make sense to put a team in Manchester. The M.E.N arena is definitely modern enough, I just don’t think the team would perform well and would struggle to sell out the arena which you don’t want when you are trying to make a strong league.

The cities that are obvious choices are London, Berlin, Moscow, Athens and Paris.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

berkshire royal said:


> From what I have read we’re getting better, we just qualified for the European Championships for first time in something like 20+ years and there was a newspaper report on a guy who plays in the NBA who is supposed to be a star and it also said there are ½ others in the NBA who could play for the UK but are undecided at the moment as to whether they would be interested in playing for the UK.
> 
> The sport isn't popular in terms of viewing and attending, but it is quite popular in some parts of the country in terms of kids playing (especially London) the problem is that until recently there was no infrastructure in this country for basketball what so ever. The sport doesn’t get much coverage and isn’t advertised much, the good kids quite often go unnoticed because they don't join their local club because they are not aware of it and because of this no pro teams know about them and they go unnoticed. Having a team in London is common sense though, it has one of the most modern arenas in Europe, it is one of the biggest cities in Europe and it definitely would help to improve the popularity of the sport.
> 
> ...


i hate it when i see kids throwing a basketball around in Arsenal tops in hackney, alot of urban kids in London only play basketball because it's american and cool. I liked basketball at school but i woulda slapped any kid playing basketball on my estate... back in the day that is, i am older and wiser now.

I do agree though London does have an appetite for basketball, there's that youtube video of that guy owning that NBA star who happens to be on a court in Brixton, was funny!


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## SIC (May 31, 2006)

bigbossman said:


> i hate it when i see kids throwing a basketball around in Arsenal tops in hackney, alot of urban kids in London only play basketball because it's american and cool. I liked basketball at school but i woulda slapped any kid playing basketball on my estate... back in the day that is, i am older and wiser now.
> 
> I do agree though London does have an appetite for basketball, there's that youtube video of that guy owning that NBA star who happens to be on a court in Brixton, was funny!


Speaking as someone who used to play soccer in his Bulls jersey when he was a kid. Actually last time I played Basketball, I think was wearing a Messi shirt (I was in Mexico, so even my wack skills wowed them...haha). Don't hate stuff just because it's American. I mean, middle-class kids in the US like music just because it's English. It goes both ways.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

SIC said:


> Speaking as someone who used to play soccer in his Bulls jersey when he was a kid. Actually last time I played Basketball, I think was wearing a Messi shirt (I was in Mexico, so even my wack skills wowed them...haha). Don't hate stuff just because it's American. I mean, middle-class kids in the US like music just because it's English. It goes both ways.


i don't hate america or american media, i just hate the way Black british kids use the N word because they have been influenced by american media, when i was growing up in the 1990s the word was unbelievably taboo now everyone uses it. Same goes with your sports and music!

American culture is diluting ours in a lot of ways, and although i'm for the NBA in London i don't want this to be the first rung on the ladder to us becoming the "psychological" 51st state, we got our own sports!


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## masterpaul (Jun 27, 2007)

greece can even have 5 teams in NBA europe


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## DennisRodman97 (Jul 12, 2007)

There is no World Club basketball tournament.....like in soccer....thats another tournament that can be created


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## lunarCarpet (Feb 8, 2008)

Bori427 said:


> Brits are pretty bad at basketball right?


Bori, remember it's not about national teams, it about which places are the most marketable in order to support an 82 games season without losing $$$. Anyway, to answer your question, historically, yes they've sucked for many years, but with the addition of a few NBA and Euroleague players, they have improved in the past 4-5 years.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

ain't it like the NHL, hardly any american players and is still moderately sucessful in the cold parts of the states!

In the 50/60s with the original 6 teams were near enough exclusively candian despite 4 of the 6 teams playing in the states.

Based on that you don't need local players for a succesful franchise, you need superstars!!!


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## Rizzato (Dec 13, 2006)

^^ well hardly is a slight overstatement. but I get what you mean.
Tons of Canadians and Russians, Finns, Swedes, Czechs, playing in the US for US franchises.
This European division idea would be a huge change in the basketball world. especially if this Euro division had some crazy american superstars on the team, and also home-grown european superstars on these teams as well, I think they would have high attendance.

I think Eurobasket would be more than alittle upset, am I right?
It would be like the Premiership opening a U.S. Division, while the MLS tries to maintain credibility.


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## dande (Jan 28, 2005)

Hard to imagine spoiled, overpaid players schlepping all the way to Europe on regular basis during the season. The cities most suitable to have a NBA franchise aren´t usually in countries with big basketball tradition, however with large communitys of expats and by just having large population could fill 15000 plus arena.
I think cities like Athens, Rome, Belgrade, Zagreb, Madrid, Barcelona, Milano, Moscow would be good hosts but they are lightyears away from the US. Difficult to imagine nr 1 draft pick looking forward moving to Athens or Zagreb.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

^^^ they wouldn't choose athens or zagreb, they would choose western european cities, with massive populations... London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Berlin etc


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## Ruksi (Nov 23, 2008)

bigbossman said:


> ^^^ they wouldn't choose athens or zagreb, they would choose western european cities, with massive populations... London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Berlin etc


hm...
sorry but why they wouldn't choose Zagreb???hno:
Zagreb idefinitly deserves that :banana:


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

Zagreb is a great city worthy of a team I am sure. However it is only a metro of just over a million. There are American metros that are under 2 million that should perhaps not even have a team. Cities absolutely need to be from large metros (+4-5 million I think would be ideal) with a robust middle class and corporate base. Plus, any European teams would be quasi-national teams as much as municipal teams so putting them in a market that could be broadcast games potentially to a 40-60+million audiences would be a major consideration.


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## SIC (May 31, 2006)

Rizzato said:


> I think Eurobasket would be more than alittle upset, am I right?
> It would be like the Premiership opening a U.S. Division, while the MLS tries to maintain credibility.


Well as an MLS fan, I would say. Bring it on!

Let the best league win.

Although FIFA would never allow it.

The NBA is bigger than...is it FIBA? Yeah, what's FIBA gonna do? Ban NBA players for international competition. I don't think the NBA would care, they'd prefer more rest for it's players.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

SIC said:


> Well as an MLS fan, I would say. Bring it on!
> 
> Let the best league win.
> 
> ...


That's the key america is a law unto herself, thats why the likelihood of it happening is high!


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

Never gonna happen, there is some short of coperation between FIBA Europe and NBA 


> 17 October 2008
> 
> FIBA Europe President George Vassilakopoulos and Secretary General Nar Zanolin met with NBA Commissioner David Stern last Tuesday, 14th October in Berlin, Germany to discuss issues involving to the relationship between FIBA Europe and the NBA.
> The meeting touched on topics ranging from the availability of European players playing in the NBA who wish to compete for their national teams, matters related to insurance for those players, agents and scouts and other general issues.
> ...


but an expansion involving top European teams will never happen. And not only that:




> *Important Euroleague news: no more NBA Europe Live Tour*
> 
> In a recent interview with the CSKA president about the Euroleague board meeting from last 15th January for the Russian website basketball.ru, a lot of very important decision have been taken and we will present those to you right here already before their official announcement by the Euroleague.
> 
> ...


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

bigbossman said:


> ^^^ they wouldn't choose athens or zagreb, they would choose western european cities, with massive populations... London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Berlin etc


Western europe, massive population? I follow basketball for years and i can't name 1 English basketball team, first play basketball on high level and then talk about massive populations.


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

It's a pipe dream (I know)---but how about adding another division to both the Eastern and Western Conferences? The European division would join the Eastern Conference and a China/Asia division would join the Western conference? I realize that labeling China as anything "Western" sounds stupid, but it wouldn't be if we are going off of the dividing line of the NBA (Mississippi River). 


*Western Confernece*

Asian Division
-Bejing
-Shanghai
-Tokyo
-Guangzhou
-Shenzhen (or Hong Kong)

*Eastern Conference*

European Division
-London
-Paris
-Milan
-Madrid or Barcelona
-Athens/Amsterdam/Frankfurt/etc.


Also, I am not sure if these European nations that have their own established leagues or teams would support the NBA.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

Judge Phillip Banks said:


> It's a pipe dream (I know)---but how about adding another division to both the Eastern and Western Conferences? The European division would join the Eastern Conference and a China/Asia division would join the Western conference? I realize that labeling China as anything "Western" sounds stupid, but it wouldn't be if we are going off of the dividing line of the NBA (Mississippi River).
> 
> 
> *Western Confernece*
> ...



As we don't have a professional league and are actively courting things to fill our large arenas i'd think London would bite your hand off, although it woud be totally privately financed, our cities aren't held to ransom by our "sports organisations"!!

also

you'd add 10 teams to a 30 team league?

haven't the NFL stated that 32 is the perfect number, as you can have even divisions and schedules, and enough teams get to the playoffs to keep the season alive and on point. 40 teams with one trophy is excessive!

or are you proposing relocating 10 american franchises

All hypothetical of course...


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

bigbossman said:


> As we don't have a professional league and are actively courting things to fill our large arenas i'd think London would bite your hand off, although it woud be totally privately financed, our cities aren't held to ransom by our "sports organisations"!!
> 
> also
> 
> ...


Yeah, its excessive---but I think you need to add 5 teams to Europe give purpose to such extensive 'trips' across the Atlantic. I also think fans in China should we rewarded with teams. 

None of this is ever going to happen of course.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

i maintain 4 teams, 2 expansion, 2 relocated. Re align the divisions liek the NFL ie 8 divisions of 4!


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## Ballota (Oct 24, 2005)

DennisRodman97 said:


> There is no World Club basketball tournament.....like in soccer....thats another tournament that can be created


Well...we allways have the Olimpics... 



nomarandlee said:


> Plus, any European teams would be quasi-national teams as much as municipal teams so putting them in a market that could be broadcast games potentially to a 40-60+million audiences would be a major consideration.


I agree!
For example, you can't have a French team concentrated solely on Paris.
Then noone from the south would bother to see it and be a fan. There are much biger in-country diferencers and rivalries in Europe, than in the US.
In, say, Illionis it's enogh to have a team from Chicago so that the ppl can identify them selfes though them. There are no such culturalogical diferences in the state it's selfe.

I hope this makes sense... :nuts:


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

Ballota said:


> Well...we allways have the Olimpics...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chicago is more illinois, than paris is france. 

For real comparisons between US states and european countries you should choose states without a completely dominant city

Florida, New York, Ohio, Texas and California all spring to mind


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## jl1718 (Oct 23, 2007)

It's much closer than some of you realize.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/dec/14/ussport


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## BobDaBuilder (Jun 7, 2005)

It would have been a possibilty if the Concorde was still in operation. It was 4 hours from London/Paris to New York. It is too far to be doing 10 hour flights every other day. 

Forget about it.

Also, lived in London. They have no interest in basketball there, in fact because it is 'An American game' there will be a real cringe associated with it, like McDonalds or American cars. Went to a London Towers v. Zalgiris game and the stadium was full of Lithuanian expats cheering on Zalgiris.

It'll be another Pearl Harbour for America if they attempted it.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> Because basketball and football clubs don't have the same owners?


olympiacos do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiacos_CFP 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratis_Kokkalis

and so do many others...


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

> Not true at all, the NBA owes nothing to FIBA or Euroleague, it is richer and more powerful. If it says jump the rest of the basketball world says... how high. If the NBA wanted to introduce a team in europe theres nothing FIBA can really do, as mentioned by someone else previously, it works in football because FIFA and UEFA run all the competitions, but in Basketball the NBA aren't governed by FIBA infact they have different rules!


hno: I was planning to reply to all of what you said but when i saw this part... i will stop here. Bye.


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

bigbossman said:


> olympiacos are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiacos_CFP


No they are not. Olympiacos Basketball club is owned by Angelopoulos brothers. Did you even read the links you posted?



> so are Real madrid and barcelona


 Those clubs don't have owners since they aren't private. Anyway seems to me that you have lack of any sports knowledge so i'll give up from further discussion.


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

bigbossman said:


> olympiacos do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiacos_CFP
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratis_Kokkalis
> 
> and so do many others...


CFP is the football team

BC is the basketball team

The owners are the Angelopoulos brothers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympiacos_BC

Very rarely a football team has the same owner with the basketball team


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

And that was my last post.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> No they are not. Olympiacos Basketball club is owned by Angelopoulos brothers. Did you even read the links you posted?


Point is it's just a diversionary tactic by you. Granted i was wrong, i read that he chaired the whole organistation and assumed that meant the specifics, shoot me why don't you



> Those clubs don't have owners since they aren't private. Anyway seems to me that you have lack of any sports knowledge so i'll give up from further discussion


hence why i changed my point before you posted yours, it's clear that you have changed the discussion as i had disproved your points, anyway, nice chatting


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## en1044 (May 4, 2008)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> hno: I was planning to reply to all of what you said but when i saw this part... i will stop here. Bye.


he does have a point though...thats why FIBA is changing a lot of their rules to coincide with the NBA


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> Its like saying in footaball, Arsenal will stop playing in the Premier league and the Champions League and join the American MLS.



No, it is like saying the Chicago Fire or New York Red Bull would be given a chance to join Premier league. Why would Arsenal go join an inferior league? Teams (or new teams) would perhaps be inclined to join a richer more prestigious leagues.


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

en1044 said:


> he does have a point though...thats why FIBA is changing a lot of their rules to coincide with the NBA


It's different to be a partner or taking ideas from the best than be a servant. More or less he is saying that we are servants of the americans.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> It's different to be a partner or taking ideas from the best than be a servant. More or less he is saying that we are servants of the americans.


when did i say you were servants... sort out your inferiority complex.

The NBA is better clearly, you can't argue with that!


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

nomarandlee said:


> No, it is like saying the Chicago Fire or New York Red Bull would be given a chance to join Premier league. Why would Arsenal go join an inferior league? Teams (or new teams) would perhaps be inclined to join a richer more prestigious leagues.


Then if they care so much to involve the game in London then why they aren't doing the *obvious*? Enjoy the league of their continent, the biggest and most important league in the world (after NBA), the Euroleague? What they are waiting?


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

bigbossman said:


> when did i say you were servants... sort out your inferiority complex.
> 
> The NBA is better clearly, you can't argue with that!


Basically this is what you said:
_*
"If it says jump the rest of the basketball world says... how high. If the NBA wanted to introduce a team in europe theres nothing FIBA can really do*_"

How would you describe this relationship?



bigbossman said:


> The NBA is better clearly, you can't argue with that!


Did i said otherwise?

As for the inferiority complex, i am not the one who is repeating all the time about how great his city is. You are the one who is doing that.


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## dodomir (Mar 9, 2008)

bigbossman said:


> Real MAdrid would keep their current team, but would pay for a franchise slot in the NBA. and would call it Real Madird


And why would they do that??


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

dodomir said:


> And why would they do that??


i never said they would... but if european franchises were made available... it could happen!


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> Basically this is what you said:
> _*
> "If it says jump the rest of the basketball world says... how high. If the NBA wanted to introduce a team in europe theres nothing FIBA can really do*_"
> 
> How would you describe this relationship?


what has that got to with servants. That statement illustrates where the power is in the game of basketball. You read your own agenda into it. The NBA can do as she pleases as she has no one in basketball to hold her accountable... the NBA doesn't however rock the boat, but there is no reason why if she did she would lose out...



> Did i said otherwise?


If you didn't say otherwise why are you complaining about statements which affirm it then...



> As for the inferiority complex, i am not the one who is repeating all the time about how great his city is. You are the one who is doing that.


When did i ever say London was great, i never once bigged up London, i merely repeated the point that London a growing basketball market has great potential, which any economist would tell you, it does.

Howevere, you were the one trying to affirm the point at every opportunity, that London basketball is crap (which i agreed with), and greek basketball is better (which i also agreed with). But unfortunately that was never the issue in this debate..


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> Then if they care so much to involve the game in London then why they aren't doing the *obvious*? Enjoy the league of their continent, the biggest and most important league in the world (after NBA), the Euroleague? What they are waiting?


as unreadable as that is... 

In Britain Basketball is seen largely as the NBA full stop. Thats why the only way basketball would gain a foothold in Britain is if loads of good players came over to play and represent us!

The main reason the BBL will never succeed is that it isn't a quality product! As i mentioned previously only established sports in Britain have fans with a high tolerance to quality. whether Euroleague is high quality or not, the name means nothing to the majority of sports fans over here, but everyone has heard of the NBA.

therefore 

if a sport is to grow in a nation where it has a small foothold (like it does in Britain, despite a substantial following), it can do so in many ways, here are two... 

A. grow the game from grass routes level and let it build in popularity over the years (this is along process), 

or 

B. you can expose the population to high quality sport and hope to capture their imagination (short process). 

Option A is what has been persued in the past, option B is what would happen if the NBA expanded into London and as the exhibition games have proven this option does tons more to stimulate the populace of Britain towards basketball than the BBL ever did or ever will do. 

This is a British argument for the NBA expanding, i dare say in other countries there would be different reasoning, but as i have repeatedly said i see no reason why it can't be a success over here...


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

nomarandlee said:


> I think it would be cool to get both an Asian and European division on board. I would think that the NBA would be shy about taking both on board at the same time though. The NBA would probably see what success it had in Europe before it sets up shop in Asia.
> 
> Four or five teams in a Asia and Europe divisions would work. To the one person who said is 32 teams for a league? I don't think it matters much as long as the divisions and conferences have the same number of teams. The only serious wonder I have is if there was a talent drop off from its players. More then any other sport basketball depends on their superstars and their is only so many impact superstars that make their teams competitive (one of the reasons I love the NFL over the NBA as its less superstar dependant). Also an Asian/Europe conference would make the league a truly 24/7 league but scheduling times with East Asia and the U.S. is much more complicated compared to the 5-7 hour European/NA difference. Will people early in the morning in Tokyo or Chicago really wake up early to watch their team on TV play on the road? That said, if I were to recommend a four or five team addition I would go.
> 
> ...


Diluting the talent of the league would be my biggest concern of such a large league. 10 more teams would of eat up much of the draft pool. Also, in such a global league---would cities like Memphis, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, Portland, Oklahoma City, or New Orleans have a place in a league with these new, rich mega cities?


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

How many people in Europe would automaticaly have a bias against the league because its American? Like everything, they would assume we are trying to force our culture down your throats. 

Perhaps the league needs to look at China before putting teams in Spain or wherever. A Bucks-Rockets game of no importance last year drew an estimated 200 million t.v. audience in China. Can't argue with those numbers.


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## weava (Sep 8, 2007)

The only way I could imagin it working is if they made a full size European League and had interleague play mid-season like the MLB does. That way you only have do the traveling overseas during one portion of the season and durring the championship series. 

How long of a flight and what is the time differnce from LA or Utah to Berlin?


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Judge Phillip Banks said:


> How many people in Europe would automaticaly have a bias against the league because its American? Like everything, they would assume we are trying to force our culture down your throats.


The league may be based in the USA, but basketball is not US culture. *Basketball is Canadian and US culture.* The sport's roots are strongly rooted in both countries. Even the NBA can trace its roots to Canada. The first NBA game ever was played in Canada, not the USA.



Judge Phillip Banks said:


> Diluting the talent of the league would be my biggest concern of such a large league. 10 more teams would of eat up much of the draft pool. Also, in such a global league---would cities like Memphis, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, Portland, Oklahoma City, or New Orleans have a place in a league with these new, rich mega cities?


It's inevitable that the talent pool for NBA teams in Canada and the US will get diluted. As professional basketball continues to develop around the world, top players will one day have opportunities to make equal money in Europe, Asia, and even south America. 

Not only will Memphis, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, Sacramento, Portland, Oklahoma City, and New Orleans get permanently shut out, but it also explains why practically all of Canada goes without NBA teams as well. Beyond Toronto, there simply aren't cities big enough in Canada to compete with cities as populated as Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, etc.

If the NBA wants to remain the premier basketball league in the world without diluting the talent base, the likely outcome is that half the NBA franchises in the US will lose their teams to cities like Beijing, Istanbul, and Sao Paolo, etc. 

Looking 20 to 30 years out, any city under 6 million might find themselves in a precarious situation as team owners look to move to bigger, richer cities beyond north America. Cleveland, Detroit, Indianapolis (Indiana), Milwaukee, Charlotte, Orlando, Denver, Minneapolis (Minnesota), Oklahoma City, Portland, Salt Lake City (Utah), Oakland (Golden State), Phoenix, Sacramento, Memphis, New Orleans, and San Antonio will all be in big trouble. Boston, Atlanta, Miami, Washington, Dallas, and Houston may be safe, but even they will face increasingly intense competition from larger foreign markets. 

This may sound outlandish to an American, but if Buffalo can lose the Bills to Toronto, Boston can lose the Celtics to Shanghai. A city with a market of 6 million people competing with a city with a market of 20 million? The US and Canada are rich, but the rest of the world is rapidly catching up. NBA fans in the US should be more concerned with keeping the teams they have than seeking further expansion of the NBA in their country.


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## Aurelio (Mar 5, 2004)

www.sercan.de said:


> Palau Sant Jordi is not a "Arena". Is just a Sports hall.
> No suites.
> No club level. No restaurants.


That's why I wrote "Barcelona Arena"...


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## masterpaul (Jun 27, 2007)

So why doesnt nobody in England recognizes the European Cups like champions league?

Reason is Simple:

England just doesnt do at all well in these cups. So people started not given a dam about it.


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## berkshire royal (Jun 11, 2008)

^^
To be honest I dont think we ever did, but that is changing over time. Bball only got popular in Greece after you won and hosted the Euro's in 1987.

I have to say it is clear what Bossman is saying is pretty clear, London is a clear candidate for an NBA team and it is true. London is the most racially and culturally diverse city in the world, the city is extremely wealthy with one of the most modern arenas in Europe as well as not having a strong league or strong team and the NBA is popular here, everything they would be looking for.
In Athens you have a tradition of competing in Euroleague and that would make it a hell of a lot harder for the NBA to get positive feedback about putting a team in Athens.


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

berkshire royal said:


> Bball only got popular in Greece after you won and hosted the Euro's in 1987.


Nope. Basketball is popular here since very long time, decades back.

Example:

_"Panathenaic Stadium_

_Did you also know that the stadium holds a unique world record? On April 4th, 1968, AEK Athens won the European Basketball Cup (beating Slavia Prague) in front of *60.000* spectators, the largest crowd ever to attend a basketball match."_



















http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/greece/athens_panathenaic.shtml


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## www.sercan.de (Aug 10, 2003)

Aurelio said:


> That's why I wrote "Barcelona Arena"...


:d
Any plans for a real new Arena?



Greek Basketball league was established 1928!!!!
Maybe it the oldest Basketball League in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A1_Ethniki

Greek League is the one of the best (TOP 3) in Europe.
I think currently Spain is No 1, but some years ago Greece was by far the best league.


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## DidacXavier (Sep 4, 2008)

masterpaul said:


> greece can even have 5 teams in NBA europe


What? Impossible. I think only Panathinaikos. Greece 5 teams in NBA Europe? Then, Spain 10 teams... In Greece there are 2 or 3 big teams, but the rest...


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## Rizzato (Dec 13, 2006)

If I was David Stern (and who says Im not?)
I would make a 6 team Euro division.
these teams, hopefully, will have the same talent available to them as the other 30 NBA franchises, although the league-wide talent would decrease slightly.
So, these teams would play eachother 14 times each = 1 team would play 70 games against the other 5 Euro teams in the division.
that leaves 12 more games to play, so each Euro team would play 2 randomly selected teams from each of the 6 American NBA divisions


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

^^ That would be a disaster. Any new division would have to adhere to similar scheduling procedures as the other divisions or else it would throw the competitive advantage out of whack. If lets say the Madrid team were really awesome but the rest of the division sucked they could pad the states and lose only four games per year. 

Plus, not integrating the European and American sides partially defeats the purpose of the whole scenario in the first place which to drive up the drama and exposure of the WHOLE league on both sides of the Atlantic. 

Perhaps with the extra teams they will have to go with some unbalanced schedule like the NFL. Have the new divisional teams play each other four times per year, each conference team twice, and its non-conference games perhaps once or perhaps some non-conference teams twice on a rotating basis?


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## kolovoda (Oct 23, 2006)

Can i just ask the question why would anyone in europe want the NBA. In my opinion the euroleague rocks and has the stick over the NBA. As a teen i started playing ball becasue fo the NBA but once i started watching the european competition realised what a great basetball competition it is. 
Like someone else posted No point ruining 2 good leagues for a half baked idea.


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## en1044 (May 4, 2008)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> Nope. Basketball is popular here since very long time, decades back.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


however, that record has long since been broken


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

kolovoda said:


> Can i just ask the question why would anyone in europe want the NBA.


For the same reason we drink Coke. The product is artificial, unhealthy and the last things we need. But brain-washing advertisings will turn us around.


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## perica (Dec 20, 2008)

What does NBA mean? Exactly, and thats what it will stay. If they want NBA teams in europe they can orginize some sort of World Series, 5 game tie, winner of NBA plays against winner of Euroleague, yes winner is predictable but who cares. Thats for those who want to see euro teams go against NBA teams in real competative game.
As for those who want NBA team in europe, IMO anyone from NBA who thinks like that probably thinks only about London team, language and money potentials are therem, put it in Eastern Conference and flight distance isnt too far. Rest of Europe, not bloody likley.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

perica said:


> What does NBA mean? Exactly, and thats what it will stay. *If they want NBA teams in europe* they can orginize some sort of World Series, 5 game tie, winner of NBA plays against winner of Euroleague, yes winner is predictable but who cares. Thats for those who want to see euro teams go against NBA teams in real competative game.
> As for those who want NBA team in europe, IMO anyone from NBA who thinks like that probably thinks only about London team, language and money potentials are therem, put it in Eastern Conference and flight distance isnt too far. Rest of Europe, not bloody likley.


It's not they, whoever this is, it's the NBA that wants to expand to Europe. Europe doesn't need the NBA, but it seems that the NBA needs Europe to a certain extent.

For anyone who hasn't got it yet, I look to all the croatians and greeks in here, american sports leagues are 100% profit oriented businesses. They have nothing got in common with sport associations that govern the european game. They will certainly not come here and develop the game. They will come here to develop the market.
And that's why the NBA will locate their franchises to the strongholds of disposable income rather than the strongholds of the game.

My guess would be London, Cologne and Berlin. These places have suitable venues and great numbers of well-funded population.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

flierfy said:


> It's not they, whoever this is, it's the NBA that wants to expand to Europe. Europe doesn't need the NBA, but it seems that the NBA needs Europe to a certain extent.
> 
> For anyone who hasn't got it yet, I look to all the croatians and greeks in here, american sports leagues are 100% profit oriented businesses. They have nothing got in common with sport associations that govern the european game. They will certainly not come here and develop the game. They will come here to develop the market.
> And that's why the NBA will locate their franchises to the strongholds of disposable income rather than the strongholds of the game.
> ...


that man speaks the truth!


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

kolovoda said:


> Can i just ask the question why would anyone in europe want the NBA. In my opinion the euroleague rocks and has the stick over the NBA. As a teen i started playing ball becasue fo the NBA but once i started watching the european competition realised what a great basetball competition it is.
> Like someone else posted No point ruining 2 good leagues for a half baked idea.


Not everybody wants the NBA, *if* NBA ever come here (which i higly doubt at least for the following 10 years) will create couple franchise teams propable 6 mainly on virgin basketball cities and thats it.

But even that is dificult, 

A) you have this huge distances

B) you need new NBA type arena which costs millions euros

C) you need a solid fan base to support this newly created team, which means every game must be sold out or at the vast majority full

D) The local team and the sport (basketball) must "sell" in a way to attract sponsors and commercials and to be seen around the local country

E) Many milions euros to buy players and be competive in NBA, i beleive at least 60-70 milions euros for start

F) and above all, you must find a man who will pay for all this.


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

In the meantime Euroleague will continue to grow and to be seen by millions around the globe.


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

flierfy said:


> My guess would be London, Cologne and Berlin. These places have suitable venues and great numbers of well-funded population.


It has nothing to do how well-funded a population is. If this was the case Alba Berlin wouldn't be so mediocre team as it is now.

You need money. If you have money you will buy good players. If you will buy good players your team most likely will have more victories and be on the top level. Its the rule which applies to all professionals sports.


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

flierfy hit it on the head. It doesn't matter how much some of these cities in Greece are into the sport. Its all about market size, ad revenue, etc---and its tough to compare to cities like London or Paris. Unfortunaley, leagues like the NBA are big into the money aspect (although, the league does help grow the game and is a positive member of the community).


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

krudmonk said:


> Did you even put any thought into this? Oakland is in a market of 7.3 million.
> 
> Furthermore, there will be no world league as long as there are 82 games on the schedule. The travel is not feasible.


You're right that Oakland is part of a much larger metropolitan market, but are you going to dismiss the entire argument over one minor error? The point was that certain markets are going to feel increasing pressures from larger markets that currently have no teams. 

Why would an 82 game schedule make a world league impossible? You could still have exactly the same number of teams as exist now, but just relocate many of the smaller market teams to bigger cities around the world. 

I hope you realize that I'm not advocating this, I'm merely pointing out that it is potentially how this may unfold. US sports leagues are businesses. The direction the NBA takes will always be dictated by profit. If it becomes substantially more profitable to move teams to Europe despite a massively higher travel bill, then teams will move there. That's just the way it is whether we like it or not.


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

Judge Phillip Banks said:


> flierfy hit it on the head. It doesn't matter how much some of these cities in Greece are into the sport.


My friend what are you talking about? Where did i said that i want the NBA here and you are talking about "It doesn't matter how much some of these cities in Greece are into the sport"?
I only asked, "why this city and not that?'



Judge Phillip Banks said:


> *Its all about market size, ad revenue*, etc---and its tough to compare to cities like London or Paris. Unfortunaley, leagues like the NBA are big into the money aspect (although, the league does help grow the game and is a positive member of the community).


Moscow has the same population as London and Paris.
+ CSKA Moscow is the current Euroleague champion

Russia has the population of UK and France combined.
+ Russia is the current European champion

So what?


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

^^ Konstanz stop it, you keep re iterating the same points which keep getting disproved regularly, the problem is you don't seem to understand why, despite people repeatedly explaining it to you!


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## KONSTANTINOUPOLIS (Jun 5, 2003)

^^ Stop what, the dialogue? From my point of view i bring to the table my opinion about the subject:



KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> Not everybody wants the NBA, *if* NBA ever come here (which i higly doubt at least for the following 10 years) will create couple franchise teams propable 6 mainly on virgin basketball cities and thats it.
> 
> But even that is dificult,
> 
> ...





KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> Moscow has the same population as London and Paris.
> + CSKA Moscow is the current Euroleague champion
> 
> Russia has the population of UK and France combined.
> ...


and all i can read is 3-4 guys keep repeating about the market and the wealth of their cities. 

So according to you guys the *No 1 *requirement is how much money per month earns the local population?


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## TEBC (Dec 26, 2004)

In Americas:

Coliseu San Juan - Puerto Rico
Santiago Arena - Chile
Luna Park, Buenos Aires - Argentina
HSBC Arena, Rio de Janeiro - Brasil


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## masterpaul (Jun 27, 2007)

en1044 said:


> however, that record has long since been broken


By who, when? + source


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## krudmonk (Jun 14, 2007)

berkshire royal said:


> London is the most racially and culturally diverse city in the world


It's 58.2% white British.


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## berkshire royal (Jun 11, 2008)

^^
Well it claims to be and does have a pretty good claim and even if it isn’t my point was that with such a huge range of people there will always be a place for a large number of different tastes and preferences. 
Only Miami and Toronto have higher percentages of foreign born citizens living in their city, in London there are over 300 different languages spoken, there are 19 different nationalities with a high population in the city (30,000+) and there is lots of different religions represented in the city.
But back to my original point with all them cultures mixing there will always be a market for a sport like basketball or any other sport for that matter.


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> Moscow has the same population as London and Paris.
> + CSKA Moscow is the current Euroleague champion
> 
> Russia has the population of UK and France combined.
> ...


While this may be true, there is no way that the NBA is ever going to have a team in Moscow. Its too far east and isolated from the other huge European cities. If there ever was going to be a "European division" it would probally be strictly Western European--with a cutoff point at Germany (which I doubt even likes the sport).


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS said:


> and all i can read is 3-4 guys keep repeating about the market and the wealth of their cities.
> 
> So according to you guys the *No 1 *requirement is how much money per month earns the local population?


Pretty much, unfortunaely. That is what I was trying to say before. The NBA is about the money, the brand new arenas, the marketing/advertising, etc.


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

Judge Phillip Banks said:


> While this may be true, there is no way that the NBA is ever going to have a team in Moscow. Its too far east and isolated from the other huge European cities. If there ever was going to be a "European division" it would probally be strictly Western European--with a cutoff point at Germany (which I doubt even likes the sport).


 I think EVER is a strong word but I think it would be behind the top 4-5 and wouldn't come unless the first go about of European expansion was seen as a success. Moscow has the metro and Russia the right state size to market. Also while there is an uber-rich and corperate class which is a positive though I am not sure if Moscow's middle class would be seen as robust enough (just speculation, perhaps it is robust enough by W. Europe standards).

The NHL in Moscow however I could see as more likely........

On the downside Moscow adds at least a few hours to most of the teams travel scheduling including European teams. Plus Russian-American relations would have to be seen as stable and even though they are not near at cold war levels I think the NBA would want to go where there is high confidence that any serious downturn in relations isn't at all likely. Also unlike some other cities in which some NA players may see living as an exotic fun place to play I am not sure if Moscow would be very high on many players list to transplant to. Of course being professional athletes some would place in Yellowknife, Canada if the contract is right.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

krudmonk said:


> It's 58.2% white British.


in 2001 when the census was severely undercounted, London has changed massively even in from 2001 when i was still at school!


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## JYDA (Jul 14, 2008)

I know supersonic business jets are in development. Maybe teams could buy these to reduce the travel headaches and make it a possibility. Time change would still be a nightmare obviously.


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## Scba (Nov 20, 2004)

JYDA said:


> I know supersonic business jets are in development. Maybe teams could buy these to reduce the travel headaches and make it a possibility. Time change would still be a nightmare obviously.


They wouldn't have to resort to that, teams wouldn't come over very often. When they do, they play all around Europe, not just one team for two days and then dash back home.


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## Kazurro (Jan 23, 2005)

I like Euroleague, but i've no doubt a franchise based in Spain would be much more popular than any Euroleague team now. Specially if they sign any Spanish player for marketing purposes...

Bigboss: ¿what is the actual popularity of NFL in the UK? And your domestic league?


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

Kazurro said:


> I like Euroleague, but i've no doubt a franchise based in Spain would be much more popular than any Euroleague team now. Specially if they sign any Spanish player for marketing purposes...
> 
> Bigboss: ¿what is the actual popularity of NFL in the UK? And your domestic league?


we have no domestic league as such... amatuer leagues yes but no professional league that i know of... 

the sport got really big in the 80s and early 90s when they had the world bowl and the london monarchs, used to be on channel 4 IIRC and used to get big audiences, then it petered out, but with sky and channel 5 running with it, it's increasingly popular now and a franchise would be massive... it is probably the in the top 5 biggest university sports (after Football, Rugby etc)


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

nomarandlee said:


> I think EVER is a strong word but I think it would be behind the top 4-5 and wouldn't come unless the first go about of European expansion was seen as a success. Moscow has the metro and Russia the right state size to market. Also while there is an uber-rich and corperate class which is a positive though I am not sure if Moscow's middle class would be seen as robust enough (just speculation, perhaps it is robust enough by W. Europe standards).
> 
> The NHL in Moscow however I could see as more likely........
> .


Yeah, you are probally right. If the league was very successful in Western Europe, I could see them maybe doing it. The idea of having teams needing to travel from Houston or Chicago to Moscow or Athens, then back to the states to play a home game just makes your head spin. I don't know who it would be worse for----the players or the guys who have to write the schedules!


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## masterpaul (Jun 27, 2007)

why should nba choose london?

Warsaw is going to be just as attractive, a modern enpty 20 000 indoor hall. Center of europe. Good infastructure by 2012. 

Like England basketball in Poland, is on a low level.


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## Mr. Met (Jan 9, 2008)

is it nba ready with press access, amenities, ect, or just just modern


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## en1044 (May 4, 2008)

Mr. Met said:


> is it nba ready with press access, amenities, ect, or just just modern


i really think it depends on the city. NBA arena i guess would mean that its loaded with suites and such but it should depend on who lives in the city and who will go to the games. Its a different culture, even if it is the NBA.


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

masterpaul said:


> why should nba choose london?
> 
> Warsaw is going to be just as attractive, a modern enpty 20 000 indoor hall. Center of europe. Good infastructure by 2012.
> 
> Like England basketball in Poland, is on a low level.


Because London is one of the most important cities in the world with lots of money, advertising revenue, diversity, and they speak English.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

^^ what he said


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## DennisRodman97 (Jul 12, 2007)

leave it the way it is ...if it aint broke dont try to fix it.....do u see the english premier league try to come to usa to make the MLS same as their league...leave it the way it is.


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

DennisRodman97 said:


> leave it the way it is ..


 Couldn't agree more. No need to butcher both leagues for something that is certain to fail.


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## bigbossman (Jun 25, 2007)

DennisRodman97 said:


> leave it the way it is ...if it aint broke dont try to fix it.....do u see the english premier league try to come to usa to make the MLS same as their league...leave it the way it is.


No not specifically, but you do see the Premier league trying to do this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7232378.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/7232390.stm


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## parcdesprinces (Feb 15, 2009)

makimax said:


> dont exist minimal chance to succeed,no way hno:.





Fizmo1337 said:


> I don't know if they will succeed......I guess quite a lot of (new) people would get interest in the sport.


Of course it will succeed in France (if the expansion happens).. It already did for the NBA Europe tour in Paris (2006 & 2008).

Despite we don't have the greatest euroleague teams here, Basketball is popular in France and in Paris, our assotiation is one of the oldest (founded in the 1920's), and this sport began in France in 1893 !!!

*NBA in Paris :*









*French Basketball League in Paris :*


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## Seattlelife (May 15, 2007)

> and this sport began in France in 1893 !!!


I've always heard differently, James Naismith (a Canadian) invented it in the USA.


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

NBA with club called "Paris" would fail miserably simple because 99% of France would rather kill them self than support anything with "Paris" in clubs name. Same would happen in any other country except for UK. In UK there is no rivalry at this field so there wouldn't be problem


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## en1044 (May 4, 2008)

Seattlelife said:


> I've always heard differently, James Naismith (a Canadian) invented it in the USA.


I think he was saying that the sport came to France in 1893, which it did.


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## parcdesprinces (Feb 15, 2009)

^^ Indeed !!! (sorry for the misunderstanding)



SpicyMcHaggis said:


> NBA with club called "Paris" would fail miserably simple because 99% of France would rather kill them self than support anything with "Paris" in clubs name. Same would happen in any other country except for UK. In UK there is no rivalry at this field so there wouldn't be problem


You know, we don't care here in Paris, if the rest of France likes us or not, nothing new .... BTW it wont be 99 % because Paris is almost 20 % of France.

I think the 11,2 millions of inhabitants of Paris will be enough for support this team.... AND anyway it could take a similar name than the oldest multisport clubs of France (including Basketball since 1893): "Stade Français" and "Racing-Club de France". 

In NBA there are teams who have the name of their state instead of the city !


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## DennisRodman97 (Jul 12, 2007)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> NBA with club called "Paris" would fail miserably simple because 99% of France would rather kill them self than support anything with "Paris" in clubs name. Same would happen in any other country except for UK. In UK there is no rivalry at this field so there wouldn't be problem


why is that?


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

DennisRodman97 said:


> why is that?


 Because European basketball fans are the same people as the Euro football fans and i don't think that i need to explain you how things work there and all the hatred and riots that happen on weekly basis all over Europe. In England there is absolutely no basketball culture and fan support on local level so it might work there. Anywhere else, no way. Especially not in Italy, Germany or Greece.


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## tritown (Aug 25, 2004)

parcdesprinces said:


> AND anyway it could take a similar name than the oldest multisport clubs of France (including Basketball since 1893): "Stade Français" and "Racing-Club de France".


No way. More likely:

"Paris Bastilles"
"Paris Berets"

These dumb names are much more likely.


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## nomarandlee (Sep 24, 2005)

I think eventually a trans-Atlantic or/and a trans-Pacific division league will be come to fruition or at least attempted, perhaps in a variety of sports. In both American and European sports leagues more then ever the big mega-clubs (often big metro's) are more richer, have more resources, and advantage. These days to make domestic leagues more competitive federations are forced to impose on larger clubs by things like revenue sharing or salary caps which the larget markets feel restricted by. 

Perhaps my sentiment is sacrilegious to some but I think it would be exciting to have a league with say 10 teams from Asia, 10 from NA/SA, 10 from Europe. I would speculate in a hypothethical international soccer legaue for instance that if New York, D.C. or Chicago was put in a league overnight with the likes of Madrid, London, Munich, etc. with the talent to compete it would dwarf the modest crowds and appreciation the Chicago Fire gets now. 

I think many who are so protective of keeping domestic leagues sacrosanct underestimate to the degree most fans of any potential sports are attracted to high level competition with top notch talent as the primary attraction.


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## Fizmo1337 (Mar 26, 2009)

@ nomarandlee

It could work in basket but not in soccer however. Soccer is based on rivalries and history between teams. Manchester United wants to play their rivals Liverpool or Arsenal or their city rivals Manchester City, not Chicago because they don't share any history or tradition whatsoever. Ok, with a lot of superstars you will certainly create more interest but still supporters of teams want to see the teams which they share a lot of tradition & rivalry with. 


In basket it's possible because in the NBA they use franchises and you can change a team from a small city to a big city without any problems, no one will complain. On the other hand in european basket it's also the same system like in soccer. Tradition, history, rivalries. I'm sure european clubs want to play NBA teams but still the biggest match for panathinaikos will be saloniki (or whoever the rival is ^^ )

Based on the american system of franchises I understand you and I agree that it could be possible but based on the european system it will never happen.


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## BobDaBuilder (Jun 7, 2005)

Speaking of NBA and Paris. It was rather amusing that bit in Rush Hour 3 with the cabbie dissing the NBA(and Americans)


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## parcdesprinces (Feb 15, 2009)

^^ Clichés......


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## kerouac1848 (Jun 9, 2009)

> NBA with club called "Paris" would fail miserably simple because 99% of France would rather kill them self than support anything with "Paris" in clubs name. Same would happen in any other country except for UK. In UK there is no rivalry at this field so there wouldn't be problem


Ha ha, no regional rivalry in the UK? Well, for a start there is the whole 'English, Scottish, etc' business, then North vs. South in England (or better yet London vs. everyone else), not to mention inter-regional stuff (e.g. Newcastle & Sunderland; Liverpool & Manchester) . Seriously, I doubt anyone outside the South East (of England) would support a London team on the basis of it representing the UK; many have a chip on their shoulder about media bias and the London centric nature of the country (very similar to France and Paris in that respect).

Anyway, I am personally not a fan of this European division being spouted by the NBA. A much better concept would be a true European league of 32 teams to rival the NBA itself. There is already a strong support base stretching along the Med and into parts of Eastern Europe. I see no reason why there cannot be developments in certain locations of Northern, Western and Central parts of the continent.

The current problem in the UK (and France I believe, not sure about Germany or other places) is how to transfer the huge level of grassroot support (i.e. people playing) into a spectator audience. Basketball is probably the second most played sport after football, for U-18's at least. More schools have basketball courts than cricket or rugby pitches, especially in our cities/large towns where most of the nation live. There are also plenty (in London where I live at least) of street courts, which due to their size and material are much easier to build/maintain than grass fields. I think part of the problem is political (the cricket and rugby associations have a much larger influence over the media than the British basketball version and there isn't really room for a 4th major sport) and the other cultural, whereby it is seen as too American. Putting it within a European context and seeing the football-like atmosphere in Athens, Zagreb is much more appealing to a British/English audience than the plastic crap at NBA arenas (see the debate about football grounds).


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## Mordaunt-S (Nov 27, 2007)

This is an idiotic idea that is determined to fail in my mind. Everything should just stay as it is in theory but with a looot of improvements in real life of course.


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## Topher51 (Mar 28, 2009)

Expanding the NBA or any American league across the Atlantic is a dumb idea. Instead, they should form some sort of alliance with the European leagues and play games that will count in each leagues standing against teams from the opposite continent. You could have the top 5 American teams playing the top 5 Euro teams, then the 6-10 teams, 11-15 teams, etc. 

They should be real games though, exhibition games aren't a good idea b/c neither team will take it seriously, wont play defense and we'll end up with an all star game-ish 145-141 final every time. Besides, I am tired of the top notch Euro soccer teams coming to America and not trying. You Euro fans wouldnt want to see the basketball equivalent of that. 

Hopefully one day it will evolve to the point where the champion of the USA could play the champion of Europe for the World Championship, similar to what the AFL and NFL did in the first few Super Bowls before the two leagues merged.


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## sali_haci (Oct 3, 2009)

Three Balkan cities deserve such an event: Istanbul, Athens, Belgrade(maybe Zagreb)...
Big cities with big arenas, and a lot of basketball fans...

Other European cities that deserve such an event are Barcelona, Madrid, Moskow, Berlin, Rome or Bologna, some french city..


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## Big Cat (Dec 1, 2008)

Lithuania, Kaunas too - with it's newly 15,000 arena


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

KingmanIII said:


> spot-on


x2

I'd only go to NBA if it were free. I'd pay quite a bit of money for college basketball though. Even high school basketball has far better atmosphere and entertainment value than the NBA. That league's managed to make a great game, tedious and soul less.


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

isaidso said:


> England's a really bizarre first choice unless one's purely looking at the potential revenue generating ability of a market. England is not a basketball country.


Because London doesn't have established team like other big European cities where fans wouldn't give up on their Euroleague team because of some franchise in league with clubs they have absolutely no rivalry with.


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> Because London doesn't have established team like other big European cities where fans wouldn't give up on their Euroleague team because of some franchise in league with clubs they have absolutely no rivalry with.


The answer to the NBA in Europe is in your response. Europeans who like basketball already have leagues and teams of their own. Europeans should concentrate on building their own leagues and teams up rather than bringing in a competing league. All the NBA will do is wreck what's taken many people lots of time and money to build.


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## footballff (Nov 4, 2010)

Europe should have their own NBA/NFL/MLB. Great sports with great potential.


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

footballff said:


> Europe should have their own NBA/NFL/MLB. Great sports with great potential.


Europe has its own NBA and its called Euroleague. 

NFL and MLB don't have required fan base.


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## AMUCK (Nov 5, 2010)

KingmanIII said:


> spot-on
> 
> plus you'll never see this at an NBA game:
> 
> don't know if that's entirely a bad thing though


Really any NBA team has fans like that, the thing is the NBA is a professional league. If someone did that in the NBA it would be seen as a little much, people would look at him/her as a crazy drunk person, the person would probably be taken out of the arena but because that was college and you're dealing with students it's fun and creative. 

That said the NBA does not lack passion, it may be displayed differently but if you look closely you'll find there is plenty of it. To me the NBA's quality of play is far superior to college which is why I'm not much of a fan of college basketball. As the game grows globally and fan-bases like those in europe become much more visible I'm sure they'll be a little shift in the way people cheer their team here in the states.


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## Andre_idol (Aug 6, 2008)

I think the best option is play a couple of games in some European cities like they will do this season. Include European teams in a NBA championship would be an awful logistic problem...after all 30 teams would have to come to Europe.


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## URSUS (Aug 26, 2008)

Being a lifelong NBA and basketball fan as well as being a supporter of a Euroleague team (Fenerbahce); I deffinitely do not want a European NBA conference. We should concentrate on making the Euroleague better instead. 

I mean I can't see myself giving a damn about some team called the Istanbul Ottomans :lol: and whether they beat Portland. I'd much rather play against other Turkish teams and the usual rivals i.e. Greek, Serbian, Spanish, Italian teams. 

As the Euroleague gets better they could possibly establish an official "World Championship game" or final four series between the two leagues' finalists as in football.


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## Andre_idol (Aug 6, 2008)

^^Yup...kinda like a special cup or something would be interesting.


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## JYDA (Jul 14, 2008)

URSUS said:


> Being a lifelong NBA and basketball fan as well as being a supporter of a Euroleague team (Fenerbahce); I deffinitely do not want a European NBA conference. We should concentrate on making the Euroleague better instead.
> 
> I mean I can't see myself giving a damn about some team called the Istanbul Ottomans :lol: and whether they beat Portland. I'd much rather play against other Turkish teams and the usual rivals i.e. Greek, Serbian, Spanish, Italian teams.
> 
> As the Euroleague gets better they could possibly establish an official "World Championship game" or final four series between the two leagues' finalists as in football.


This is precisely what David Stern does not understand. He should go to Europe and hear from more fans like yourself.


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## Martuh (Nov 12, 2005)

And no-one is mentioning the failure of NFL Europe?


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

Martuh said:


> And no-one is mentioning the failure of NFL Europe?


different situation. The sport wasn't as popular and it was essentially a developmental minor league. An NBA division in Europe would bring in basketball stars on a weekly basis, have international flair (something the NFL doesnt) and exhibit the best basketball competition in the world. LeBron James, Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, etc. would sell tickets.


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## Capital78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Europe has it's own league and it has to stay as it is!


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## Archbishop (Aug 18, 2009)

I'd rather see Euroleague improve and become a competitor than for the NBA to put expansion teams in Europe.


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

El Mariachi said:


> different situation. The sport wasn't as popular and it was essentially a developmental minor league. An NBA division in Europe would bring in basketball stars on a weekly basis, have international flair (something the NFL doesnt) and exhibit the best basketball competition in the world. LeBron James, Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Dwayne Wade, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, etc. would sell tickets.


Maybe for 2, 3 games, but sure as hell no in long term. You guys don't seem to be realizing exactly how European sports work and how average fan here thinks. No one would give a damn about 90% of NBA teams.. hell i'm pretty sure that only Lakers and Heat could fill the Arenas.. while on other hand PAO, Oly, CSKA etc can fill them anywhere and anytime in Europe. It's different league, different fans and different rivals. Leave it be.


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## _doc_ (Nov 18, 2009)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> Maybe for 2, 3 games, but sure as hell no in long term. You guys don't seem to be realizing exactly how European sports work and how average fan here thinks. No one would give a damn about 90% of NBA teams.. hell i'm pretty sure that only Lakers and Heat could fill the Arenas.. while on other hand PAO, Oly, CSKA etc can fill them anywhere and anytime in Europe. It's different league, different fans and different rivals. Leave it be.


Totally agree with you....No matter how much talent there is in a NBA team...they cannot fill a European areana for more than a week...It will be something new for 2 or 3 games, some of us will go and watch it like a new film, but then what...? Plus we are not talking about moving an existing NBA team to Athens for example....We are talking about ESTABLISHING a NEW team....Do you understand how UN-European this is??

Team owners in Europe CANNOT move their team from one city to another for example, in case the owner does receive what he would regard as a proper income...Just to give the Americans of the forum an idea of what would something like that, mean to the US standards....Imagine the scenario of a corporation buying the statue of Liberty and moving it to Denver because the number of visitors in New York is reducing...It is pretty much the same thing in Europe...Just ask some of Spanish, Russian, Greek, Turkish and Italian basketball fans...Ask a Barcelona basketball fan what he would think about his team moving from Barcelona....
Most teams/multisports clubs in Europe have a tradition, a history and in some cases even a political "substance" in their spirit....TAU in Spain for example comes from the Basque country....Panathinaikos in Athens for more than 100 years was the traditional Athens club (not just basketball team)...Madrid was always the King's club in Spain....CSKA in Moscow was related with the Soviet army back in the times Soviet Union....I am pretty sure relevant roots are existing in Turkish clubs as well...
Anyway....all I am trying to say is that in Europe sport are more than an attractive style of playing the game and I hope that the Americans will soon realize that for the sake of their investment...


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## Capital78 (Jan 23, 2008)

Stern will probably invite huge cities as London, Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Madrid. Anyway, I'm sure the NBA Europe idea won't work.


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

SpicyMcHaggis said:


> Maybe for 2, 3 games, but sure as hell no in long term. You guys don't seem to be realizing exactly how European sports work and how average fan here thinks. No one would give a damn about 90% of NBA teams.. hell i'm pretty sure that only Lakers and Heat could fill the Arenas.. while on other hand PAO, Oly, CSKA etc can fill them anywhere and anytime in Europe. It's different league, different fans and different rivals. Leave it be.


First off, you are assuming that the NBA would move to markets that already have established clubs or that these large European cities can't support more than one team. Moscow can support more than one team. As could Paris, London, Madrid, Milan, Amsterdam, or any other major European city. I highly doubt that nobody would give a damn that the best players (American and international) are coming into their town every week. I don't mean for that to sound arrogant or anything, but I think we can agree that it's the truth at this moment. I don't think you are giving Europe enough credit here in the ability to support more than one thing. 

But no, it wouldn't work unless there are rivalries. That can only happen if there were quite a few NBA teams in Europe and that's not going to happen. 5 teams in major cities scattered across Europe ain't gonna cut it.


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## El Mariachi (Nov 1, 2007)

_doc_ said:


> Totally agree with you....No matter how much talent there is in a NBA team...they cannot fill a European areana for more than a week...It will be something new for 2 or 3 games, some of us will go and watch it like a new film, but then what...? Plus we are not talking about moving an existing NBA team to Athens for example....We are talking about ESTABLISHING a NEW team....Do you understand how UN-European this is??
> 
> Team owners in Europe CANNOT move their team from one city to another for example, in case the owner does receive what he would regard as a proper income...Just to give the Americans of the forum an idea of what would something like that, mean to the US standards....Imagine the scenario of a corporation buying the statue of Liberty and moving it to Denver because the number of visitors in New York is reducing...It is pretty much the same thing in Europe...Just ask some of Spanish, Russian, Greek, Turkish and Italian basketball fans...Ask a Barcelona basketball fan what he would think about his team moving from Barcelona....
> Most teams/multisports clubs in Europe have a tradition, a history and in some cases even a political "substance" in their spirit....TAU in Spain for example comes from the Basque country....Panathinaikos in Athens for more than 100 years was the traditional Athens club (not just basketball team)...Madrid was always the King's club in Spain....CSKA in Moscow was related with the Soviet army back in the times Soviet Union....I am pretty sure relevant roots are existing in Turkish clubs as well...
> Anyway....all I am trying to say is that in Europe sport are more than an attractive style of playing the game and I hope that the Americans will soon realize that for the sake of their investment...


You are right about alot of things here, but like Spicy, I think you aren't giving Europeans enough credit. Not every sports fan or potential sports fan there is hardcore about these things. The NBA can hook the casual fan with the hype, the show, and the starpower. It might not have as much meaning as historic teams, but I think there would always be an audience. It is quite possible to support two teams btw. Here in the U.S., most people support a college team along with a pro team. College sports are like your soccer or basketball where they can't be moved and have historical ties to the community. Granted, many pro teams in the U.S. have those same historical ties and community support (especially NFL teams).


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## SpicyMcHaggis (Oct 7, 2008)

El Mariachi said:


> First off, you are assuming that the NBA would move to markets that already have established clubs or that these large European cities can't support more than one team. Moscow can support more than one team. As could Paris, London, Madrid, Milan, Amsterdam, or any other major European city.


You just don't get it... NO ONE would stop supporting their team.. our teams are deeply connected with entire community and they are usually multiple sport organization. You think that people in Moscow, Madrid, Barcelona, Athens wouldn't support club like Real, Barca, PAO, CSKA for some new nameless franchise? You have no idea how deluded if you are if that's the case... and no, there's no place for multiple clubs if they aren't already established. It just doesn't work like that in Europe.. new clubs don't simply "open".. you support club you are somehow born into. This isn't US franchised sport. Most of the clubs don't even have owners and are not public. Its completely different sports culture and way of looking at it and you are seriously wrong if you think that "your way" could pass. 

Paris, Milan, Amsterdam? Get real please.. there's absolutely no basketball audience in either of those cities. That would be major debacle. 



El Mariachi said:


> I highly doubt that nobody would give a damn that the best players (American and international) are coming into their town every week.


 90% of the NBA teams mean absolutely nothing to average European fan. Place Real Madrid - PAO and the Madrid NBA - Dallas Mavericks at the same time and let me know how many people showed up for the Mavs game. 



El Mariachi said:


> I don't mean for that to sound arrogant or anything, but I think we can agree that it's the truth at this moment. I don't think you are giving Europe enough credit here in the ability to support more than one thing.


 Europe can support multiple clubs, of course that it can. Big towns have plenty of teams in all possible sports, but those are all established teams from which some are even older than 100 years. We don't know concept of "creating" a new team/franchise. If someone here wants to build a big club he takes over existing one with existing fan base. Other ways simply don't work... trust me on that one

Call us arrogant if you want, but people here don't simply start rooting for club that was suddenly relocated in their town like it happens in USA. There's only one case in all sports that i can remember and that was when AFC Wimbledon went bust and new owner relocated them to Milton Keynes. Do i even have to mention that probably youth teams in Milton Keynes have bigger attendance than the MK Dons (who play in what is already respectable and pro league). 



El Mariachi said:


> But no, it wouldn't work unless there are rivalries. That can only happen if there were quite a few NBA teams in Europe and that's not going to happen. 5 teams in major cities scattered across Europe ain't gonna cut it.


 But why would you do that? I'm huge fan of both NBA and Euroleague and they are both just fantastic on its own. They are perfectly functional as they are now and why should they be butchered? What they should do is create some sort of "Supercup" match between the league winners and that's it.


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