# Horse-Drawn Carriages - Fit for Your City?



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

_Background
Having seen horse-drawn carriages in a number of cities that I have visited, with the greatest in scale seemingly in New York, where a whole army of them line Central Park to take tourists around for a ride. But are they safe to operate in a congested city? What do you think?_

*NY Council considers banning horse-drawn carriages *

NEW YORK, Dec 11 (Reuters) - The New York City Council is considering a ban on horse-drawn carriage rides through Central Park after recent traffic accidents involving the popular tourist attraction. 

The proposal was introduced on Tuesday by Councilman Tony Avella, a democrat who has long fought to end the practice he calls inhumane and incompatible with traffic clogged midtown Manhattan. 

"It's just not a natural thing to have a horse-drawn carriage in an urban setting like New York City," said Avella, whose ban is supported by a variety of animal rights groups. 

In September, a horse died when it was spooked by street musicians. Its carriage became wedged between a tree and a pole and the horse fatally injured itself straining to get through. It was the second serious accident involving the horses in less than two years, Avella said. 

But the Horse and Carriage Association of New York has called the ban a publicity stunt and vigorously defended its record. 

"Calling for a ban on a working-class NYC industry that is 100-years old and highly popular with tourists and New Yorkers and considered 100 percent humane by all licensed animal welfare groups and agencies for a few cheap headlines is the real horse manure," Carolyn Daly, an association spokeswoman. 

"These horses are extremely well cared for and extremely loved," she said. 

It was unclear how much support the ban has attracted in the 51-member council. Mayor Michael Bloomberg said recently he believed the horses are well cared for and are part of "what defines a city." (Reporting by Edith Honan, editing by Michelle Nichols and Sandra Maler)


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## melbguy (Jan 23, 2007)

Here in Melbourne they have tours throughout downtown and they seem to do very well for themselves. As well the routes they take are through the less-congested roads in the CBD, including public street malls.


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## Unionstation13 (Aug 31, 2006)

Indy has horse-drawn carriages. PETA tried to have them removed due to a freak thing, but they didn't ban them. They are usually found in the wholesale historic district.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*In the Inner City Of Philadelphia, Horsey Set Bridles 
Traditional Black Stables Get Booted, as Government And Developers Encroach *
25 September 2007
The Wall Street Journal

PHILADELPHIA -- In a gritty, inner-city neighborhood here, a group of teenagers, older men and a few women gathered one Saturday recently -- to parade their horses. 

More than 60 horses are squeezed into a row of rickety brick stables and a dusty vacant lot here on West Fletcher Street in the rough neighborhood of Strawberry Mansion. They are among the last major remnants of a decades-old tradition in Philadelphia of inner-city riding, on horses kept in yards and odd corners of the city. 

Dozens of urban horsemen -- nearly all of them African-Americans -- gather here most days to ride, brush their animals and swap stories. Some offer rides or lessons to neighborhood children, in hopes of keeping them off the streets of North Philadelphia. 

On this day, several dozen horsemen and children planned to march their animals during a neighborhood cookout, to demonstrate opposition to violence, with an antigun message printed on their T-shirts. As they gathered, Charlie Gough, 71 years old, was considering the prospect of a third marriage after two that each had lasted 20 years. "I'd have to be with a woman that likes horses, that's for sure," he said. "I'm down here every day and she'd say, "You love the horses more than me.'" 

Nearby, a 13-year-old boy named Tyheed Smith was brushing a gray horse named Classic, when her owner, Al Lynch, piped up. "Where your jeans at?" asked Mr. Lynch. "Where's your white T?" Tyheed told him he would put on the unofficial uniform all riders were wearing: "They're in the truck!" 

The horsemen that weekend were also worrying about their future. For decades, Fletcher Street and most of the city's horsemen were largely ignored by officials. Stables came and went over the years, but there has always been vacant land to claim or another stable to squeeze into. 

Now, inner-city development is creating competition for property. Stables around town have been condemned and torn down. 

The city has not announced specific plans for Fletcher Street. But the local city councilman, Darrell Clarke, says he wants to see houses replace the stables. Mr. Clarke grew up in the neighborhood and knows several of the older horsemen from his childhood. But, he says, "It's not an ideal place for them. They are in the middle of a residential block." 

Most horsemen are unprotected. Half the block is owned by the Philadelphia Redevelopment Authority, an agency charged with developing underused property, with a special emphasis on affordable housing. The city aims to finish a major renewal project just to the south of Fletcher Street by 2010. 

Neighbors have complained of the noise and smell, and city animal-control officials have fingered Fletcher Street as a "problem area" -- a finding the horsemen dispute. Mr. Clarke and other city officials say they believe the horsemen are doing something good for the community but cannot protect them. 

"To be candid, it is not a priority," says Joyce Wilkerson, chief of staff for Mayor John F. Street. Ms. Wilkerson, who keeps a horse of her own in a stable in nearby Fairmount Park, says, "I look at a city that has an operating deficit, a school system with problems," and too much crime. "I don't think you take a sport like horses and make it a priority." 

Comments like those have made the horsemen anxious. "There's a pushout coming," says Devon Teagle, a 43-year-old former jockey, as horsemen around him nod. "I don't know when, but it's coming." If the stables weren't here, says Mr. Gough, a retired welder, "I'd just be home twiddling my thumbs." He comes to Fletcher Street every day to be with old friends. 

Horsemen say that many more horses used to live in their neighborhoods, most of them kept in small stables of 30 or so animals. These urban stables thrived in the second half of the 20th century, as the city abandoned industrial buildings that then made ideal rent-free or inexpensive stable locations. 

A large park system has fed the custom, with nearly 200 miles of trails in the middle of the city. Nearby Amish auctions provide cheap horses, costing as little as $300. The horsemen do their own grooming and stall maintenance. Some have learned to do their own veterinary work and re-shoeing. 

But a recent boom in the center of the city pushed real-estate developers into once off-limits neighborhoods. And that has put pressure on the stables. In 2003, the city condemned a swath of land in West Philadelphia to make way for a housing development. When Alisa Sneed, who worked for the City Council, went to the site to supervise the move-out of displaced residents about a week before demolition, she discovered horses living in what the city thought was an abandoned building. That day, she remembers, "Someone said, 'What about the horses?' I said, 'What horses?' As we were standing there, one of the owners let a horse out of a building," she says. "Suddenly, an abandoned lot became pasture." She and colleagues worked frantically over the next 72 hours to make sure the horses left before bulldozers arrived. A 685-unit affordable-housing development is expected to be completed on the site this year. 

A more dramatic shutdown took place in 2004, when the city invoked eminent domain to take over a warehouse and land in Brewerytown, another north Philadelphia neighborhood. There were at least 150 horses being kept at that site, which acted as a central meeting place for riders all over the city. 

After each shutdown, some horsemen find another stable or just use their backyards -- which is legal in Philadelphia -- but some also sell their horses. More of the refugees are moving outside the city, but that takes away the community element horsemen have enjoyed. 

The city is "trying to push us to New Jersey," where there are many stables, says Benjamin Wright, a longtime Fletcher Street regular, known as Uncle Deek, who hobbles because of hip surgery. "I'm not going to run out to New Jersey every day." 

Adding to the concerns is a split on Fletcher Street where a stable about to move keeps about 20 horses. It is run as a nonprofit organization that teaches children to ride and compete in horse shows. The Strawberry Mansion Equestrian Center's founder, Wayne Harris, has fought for a larger space to expand into for several years. 

A few weeks ago, the city tentatively agreed to give him a plot in an isolated area about four blocks away, abutting railroad tracks. Mr. Harris, an outsider who didn't grow up in the neighborhood and often sits apart from others on the street, says he likely will start moving his horses to the new location in the next few months as he raises money to build a larger, nicer facility. He wants to make sure animal control or neighbors are never again a threat to his mission. "I really want to make a class A stable so they can't bother us, they can't say 'muddy' or 'makeshift' or anything," he says. 

But he and others here are starting to realize that the move will make it easier for the city to shut down other stables remaining on Fletcher Street. 

Mr. Clarke says he hopes the other horsemen will follow Mr. Harris, but Mr. Harris and a founding partner, Mr. Lynch, say that's a bad idea. Mr. Lynch, who grew up in a house directly behind the Fletcher Street stable, says he and his partner don't want that many adults hanging around their stables cursing, smoking marijuana and not riding properly. 

In any event, the two say, potential boarders will have to follow their rules banning drinking, cursing and fighting. "It has to be family-friendly," Mr. Harris says.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

In Vienna there are lots of carriages in the 1st district. Thats to the most parts a very low traffic area.

But the Fiaker, as we call them, are allowed to drive on all streets, and at the end of the day they drive home to their stables and use the regular streets to get to the periphery again. 

Actually I have seen them already quite often on the Ring street that encircles the 1st district and is a three lane one way street with quite heavy traffic. 

No problems here. I mean only hundred years ago they were a dominant player in the city traffic. Back then they had also lots of dangerous trams crossing and the streets very everything else than peaceful venues of harmony...


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

There are still police in NYC that still use horses, though that number has been dropping.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

I saw some in Manila. In fact I even saw one in a main boulevard surrounded by cars

taken by me 

In Intramuros









In the central business district


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

TalB said:


> There are still police in NYC that still use horses, though that number has been dropping.


In Canada, the RCMP also ride around in horses, while Toronto police also uses horses.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/mountedpds/

However, while horse patrols may be common, they are not out on the streets that often, not like the horse carriages, which pose a much higher risk to traffic and the horses themselves.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

Believe it or not, but Dubai police uses horses also ... ONLY at night though and to patrol high density areas, not easily manouvred by the cruisers. 

When a friend visiting, told me to have seen them, I called it BS and product of alcohol consumption (I was living since 4 years in the city back then). Only later I read about and I saw them once.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

Slartibartfas said:


> In Vienna there are lots of carriages in the 1st district. Thats to the most parts a very low traffic area.
> 
> But the Fiaker, as we call them, are allowed to drive on all streets, and at the end of the day they drive home to their stables and use the regular streets to get to the periphery again.
> 
> ...


Their usual parking place stinks of urine though. hno:


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

AltinD said:


> Their usual parking place stinks of urine though. hno:


That has to with horses being living beings. They have their shit bags mostly, but I think this can't work 100% either, but it for sure helps.

People who have so weak nerves as to be bothered by horses with everything that comes with them, shall be glad that those old cities are in fact very modern nowadays because there was once a time when horses where everywhere, guess how it smelled back then...


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## Ashok (Jul 17, 2004)

we have them in Old Montreal


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

hkskyline said:


> In Canada, the RCMP also ride around in horses, while Toronto police also uses horses.
> 
> http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/mountedpds/
> 
> However, while horse patrols may be common, they are not out on the streets that often, not like the horse carriages, which pose a much higher risk to traffic and the horses themselves.


I know who the RCMP are from watching Dudley Dooright when I was young.


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## Somnifor (Sep 6, 2005)

Minneapolis does not have horse drawn carriages and they would be very out of place if it did. It does have police on horses though, mostly for crowd control.


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## gladisimo (Dec 11, 2006)

San Francisco uses a combination of bikes and horses.


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## carlisle (Nov 10, 2005)

In most cities the majority of buildings and street widths (though not surfacing) date back to a time when horse-drawn carriages were the only available way of transporting bulk goods or people who did not wish to walk, around the city. As such there is nothing inherent in the cityscape that makes it unsuitable for horses. However it is difficult to keep horses walking the streets alongside modern modes of transport. In the heart of cities, where traffic is slow moving anyway there never seems to be a problem with the occasional horse-drawn carriage amidst all the traffic but I do worry about the effect on the horse of spending all day walking along behind smoke-belching exhausts.


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

Chicago has multiple horse drawn carriages around downtown for tourists, and the city also has 32 police horses - for such things as monitoring large crowds/demonstrations, as well as patroling up and down the beaches and lakefront during spring/summer/fall.


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## FIDEL CASTRO (Nov 20, 2007)

We don't have such thing in Miami.


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## Hia-leah JDM (May 7, 2007)

^^Miami does have them. Ive seen them in Downtown and the area north of 395.


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## mdiederi (Jun 15, 2006)

We recently got them in Las Vegas in the downtown area.


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## doogerz (May 6, 2003)

We have them in Edmonton...seasonally anyways. They make their way down 'Candy Cane Lane' which is a residential street with every house decorated for Christmas, providing a unique way to take in the Christmas lights.


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## Overground (Apr 11, 2005)

Victoria, British Columbia has a couple of companies that do horse drawn carriage tours year round, a mainstay of the tourist industry. One of them is Tally-Ho Carriage Tours(since 1906) that has 21 draft horses - Percherons, Belgians, and Clydesdales. Originally the company used the carriages for public transport until the 1940s. The other is Victoria Carriage Tours in operation since '78.

Victoria is a small city so I don't think there is any issues with carriages. Victoria just wouldn't be the same without them. The Empress, double-deckers, and horse drawn carriages are a huge part of the tourist scene.

1944 at the Empress Hotel








Waggon on Government Street








Carriage in front of the Parliament Buildings








at the Empress








Betty and Veronica comic strip








Drawing from 1974


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## tocoto (Jan 18, 2003)

There are horse drawn carriages and mounted police in Boston. I've never heard any complaints about them.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*New York weighs ban on Central Park carriages *
31 January 2009

NEW YORK (AP) - New Yorkers are split over what to do about 220 of the city's most beloved urban animals -- the carriage horses that offer rides through Central Park.

"Set them free!" shouted horse advocates in front of City Hall on Friday during the first public hearing on a proposed ban on the horses and their carriages.

Carriage drivers say the animals are well cared for and happy, and that the legislation would needlessly wipe out 400 jobs during an economic crisis.

"Please, help me keep my job," begged Kierman Emanus, a driver and representative of Teamsters Local 553, during he hearing chaired by the city's Department of Consumer Affairs. He said the carriage business feeds his family.

Council member Tony Avella, a Queens Democrat, proposed banning the carriages two years ago after a spooked horse raced through the streets and crashed into a car. It had to be euthanized. Since then, Avella said three more animals have died.

He and activists have argued that Manhattan, with its heavy traffic, exhaust fumes and cramped stables, is no place for horses. The Coalition for New York City Animals said it has collected 35,000 signatures in support of Avella's bill.

City tourism officials and people involves in the carriage industry, though, have said the activists are overreacting.

"We believe horse-drawn carriages are part of the fabric and integrity of New York City," said George Fertitta, CEO of the city's tourism organization, NYC & Company.

Carriage drivers favor an alternative proposal to raise the price of a ride and set some new regulations to ensure that the horses are healthy.

Information from: New York Post


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## kazetuner (Jan 27, 2008)

Horse-drawn carriages are banned here, but you can ussually see things like these, used by low-class unemployed people to collect paperboard and other stuff from the garbage:


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

Atlanta has an abundance of these carriages...I don't guess there is anything wrong with it, as long as the animals are well cared for and not overworked. 








http://www.flickr.com/photos/nsaidi/2637675517/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/ironchapman/2555442828/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/starsandrockets/1164121195/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/rustytanton/2132373078/


One of the last remaining hitching posts that used to be plentiful in Downtown Atlanta.















http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/513801388/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/rnrobert/2131067592/


APD has a mounted patrol unit with 12 officers and 15 horses...








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2823023697/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/codymc/365946232/


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

I'll be honest, when I see them I think it looks very 1975 Tourist Trap, when the "caleche" became popular all over the place. They are a bit kitschy, and as a tourist I wouldn't be caught dead in one of them, as I don't think there is anything romantic about it.


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## mattie! (Dec 2, 2008)

Melbourne has quite a few going around, all owned by the same business I think.


























It gets a bit complicated with cars, trams, motor bikes, bikes, pedestrians and horse draw carriages. But i love the sound of the horse trotting on the road.


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## wonwiin (Jan 12, 2008)

Years ago I have seen a horse carriage used to haul produce to a local market in Dublin. Also there were the classic tourist carriages. As there was a taxi driver strike they were used as taxis also (public transport in Dublin was and partly is a nightmare in Dublin).

Last time I was in Dublin I have seen a horsedrawn hearse, very classy. But I have not seen the tourist carriages anymore. Propably the traffic was to much for horses.


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

I think when Dusty Springfield died they had a horse drawn hearse, too.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*NEW LAWS SET 'STEED' LIMITS*
30 December 2009
New York Post

It'll no longer be a dog's life for the horses in Central Park.

New rules proposed yesterday by the Health Department would guarantee the hard-working buggy-pullers five weeks of vacation a year, no work after 3 a.m., and nostrils that no longer have to endure secondhand smoke.

In what amounts to the city's first outdoor-smoking ban, the carriage drivers and their passengers would no longer be allowed to light up under regulations that could take effect as early as March.

"Just like cabdrivers, they shouldn't be smoking," declared Daniel Kass, the Health Department's acting assistant commissioner for environmental health.

He said the new rules were drawn up in response to findings by an advisory board that studied "best practices" and included both animal advocates and members of the horse-rental industry.

Three months ago, Comptroller Bill Thompson scolded the agency for not moving more quickly to implement the recommendations.

Horse drivers will soon face the same restrictions as cabbies: No cellphones, no texting, no music players and no cameras.

City officials decided that all those tech marvels were too distracting.

Horse owners will also have to supply thermometers so drivers can take readings after every trip and enter them into a log book.

When temperatures drop below 18 or above 90, the horses would get the day off.

Kass said the advisory board suggested horses get two months off every year, but the Health Department ultimately settled on five weeks.

"Operators are invited to give them more," he said.

Carolyn Daly, a spokeswoman for the horse-carriage industry, said that wouldn't be a burden to most owners, who already give their animals long breaks at nearby farms.

Kuddusi Demir, 28, one of the Central Park drivers, also endorsed the idea.

"Five weeks vacation is good. I need vacation, too," he said.

But Demir questioned the need to take temperatures.

"That's stupid. The temperature can vary from block to block," he said.

Cheney Preporius, 21, a South African student visiting the city with her boyfriend, George Smith, 24, wondered if the Central Park horses would rather stay in the city than spend idle days on a farm.

"What does a horse do on vacation? Will they put their feet up? In the wild they'd just be running around anyway," Preporius said.

A public hearing on the new rules is scheduled for Feb. 3.

Additional reporting by Amber Sutherland

MARE QUALITY

Better working conditions for horses drawing carriages in Central Park:

1. Must get five weeks of vacation per year.

2. Cant be made to work after 3 a.m.

3. Carriage drivers and passengers cant smoke.

4. Temperature must be between 18 and 90 degrees, or its a day off.


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## goschio (Dec 2, 2002)

Never seen a horse in Frankfurt.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Ban horse drawn carriages, urges Arjun Rampal*
IANS 
Sun, Mar 31, 2013

Mumbai, March 31 (IANS) Actor Arjun Rampal extends his support to PETA's campaign to ban horse driven carriages in the city.

The 40-year-old has written a letter to Sitaram Kunte, municipal commissioner of Greater Mumbai, urging him to ban horse-drawn carriages from the city's streets, just before the next court hearing on April 2, said a statement from PETA (People For The Ethical Treatment Of Animals).

"As a Mumbaiite and a person who cares deeply for animals, I am writing to add my voice to the campaign by my friends at PETA India for an immediate and permanent ban on horse-drawn carriage rides in the city," Arjun wrote.

"The manner in which these magnificent animals are treated is a crime. I respectfully request that you enact an all-out city-wide ban on horse-drawn carriages," he added.

The first court hearing regarding the same took place on Jan 15 this year, where out of 53 only 18 Victoria Carriages were found to be legal in the city.

PETA had last year requested municipal commissioner of Delhi to uphold a ban on horse-drawn carriages in the capital citing cruelty to the animals.


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## Ocean Railroader (Jun 18, 2011)

Downtown Richmond Virginia has a spot in the downtown area where the streets are still paved in cobblestones and the traffic speeds are around 25 miles on hour which would make it a good location for horses and you sometimes see police officers on horses too. 

One of the worst places for a horse though would have to be Lancaster Pennsylvania on US Route 30 which is a four lane wide highway that has a expressway dump traffic on it at one end and it narrows down to a two lane highway with the same level of expressway traffic at the other end of it. And it is not uncommon to see the horse wagons having to cross though stoplights with giant 18 wheelers behind their backs.


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## wecantski (Feb 16, 2009)

I read somewhere that in the 1860's a group of 'experts' visited new york city to investigate the horse crap problem. They looked at the current population and the demand for horses and predicted what would happen in the next 50 years.

Their findings showed that based on projected population numbers, the the city would have around 6 million horses and the associated faeces. Therefore in 40 years the human population in nyc would be near extinction or at the very least riddled with horrible disease. They could not have predicted that the car would be invented some 40-50 years later. Anyone else read about this folly?


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