# City Mayors:Dubai and Shanghai examples of wasteful urban development



## null (Dec 11, 2002)

_By Darryl D’Monte*_

15 December 2007: The danger of treating climate change only as a man-made phenomenon that impacts nature’s systems is that it posits the problem in some distant remoteness and absolves all of us of immediate responsibility. The facts tell us that three-quarters of the carbon dioxide in the world, which is the biggest greenhouse gas, is emitted by cities. Dubai and Shanghai are models that ought to be avoided, as they are examples of environmentally wasteful urban development.

Join the debate on wasteful urban development

One has only to remember that half the population of the globe is urban today. Half this carbon dioxide is contributed by buildings, which need to heat or cool their interiors; the rest is generated by motorised transport, which is growing exponentially in this country. This puts quite a different spin on climate change: it locates the problem squarely in our midst, as urban-dwellers.

As a recent issue of Down To Earth, the fortnightly magazine from the Centre for Science and Environment, puts it, cities are “earthscrapers”, rather than pockmarked only by skyscrapers. They consume inordinate amounts of energy and materials and are thus parasitical by nature. Cities account for one-sixth of the fresh water the world guzzles, a quarter of the wood harvested, and two-fifths of the material and energy flows. According to the recent report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which is the most authoritative source on the issue, cities are responsible for 26 per cent of direct greenhouse gas emissions.

As is painfully evident from city after city in this country, urban development here is highly unsustainable. Many of the most successful architects revere the ghastly monstrosities of Shanghai and Dubai; some indeed have put up dizzy skyscrapers in the latter. A recent BBC-Travel and Living channel documentary extolled the (man-made!) wonders of Burj Al Arab, the hotel in the Burj Dubai complex. The highest tower in the complex will be 50 per cent taller than any other construction in the world. One of the hotel’s highlights is a water fountain in the foyer, from the core of which emanates a flame even as it cascades. While the programme waxed eloquent about the ingenuity of the designers who could harness the molecules of oxygen present in water to put to this wondrous use, any sensitive architect who is conscious of the need to reduce the impact of a building would squirm at the very idea. The Palm Islands site in Dubai is shaped like the fronds of a palm tree and consists of reclaimed frond-like strips which extend into the sea.

Indeed, city-dwellers would do well to study their ecological footprint. If all the productive resources on land and water were equally apportioned to each human being on earth, every person would be entitled to 1.2 hectares as a footprint - the area from which he or she would obtain natural resources. Each American, who is no exemplar when it comes to sustainable development, occupies around 10 hectares. The UAE is actually one worse - the world’s biggest offender, consuming resources from far beyond its national boundaries. No wonder, when one hears that it is proud to host snow sports -- bang in the middle of the desert! Global architects like Sir Richard Rogers, on the contrary, are always conscious of trying to reduce the footprint of their buildings.

As for Shanghai, which Mumbai wants to emulate, the less said the better. The high-rise financial district of Pudong has come up on paddy fields in the island off the famed bund or river front, but the buildings lack any identity and are enormously wasteful of energy and materials. China, in fact, is the very epitome of everything that has gone wrong with urban development. Only one per cent of the country’s 560 million city-dwellers breathe air considered safe by European standards. The International Energy Agency estimates that China will surpass the US as the country with the biggest greenhouse gas emissions by the end of this year; the Netherlands Environment Assessment Agency believes it has already breasted the tape.

Thus, both Dubai and Shanghai are models that ought to be avoided as they are examples of environmentally wasteful urban development. Not that our cities are success stories. None of the speakers at the Mumbai climate change conclave made any mention of the need to take a cold, hard look at the way cities are spinning out of control. Two factors - excessive reliance on private motorised transport, and the terrible tendency to go in for glass and concrete construction for high-rise buildings, which tend to trap the heat rather than shield the occupants from it - should be enough to understand that the problem doesn’t lie out there. The fault, to paraphrase Shakespeare, lies not only in our forests and mountains, but in ourselves.

_Darryl D'Monte was Resident Editor of The Times of India and The Indian Express in Mumbai. He writes a column on environment and development, which is published in several Indian newspapers and websites. His book Temples or Tombs? Industry Versus Environment was published in 1985. He is the chairperson of the Forum of Environmental Journalists in India. (Source: InfoChange News & Features_


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

This is why outsiders should not speak about matters out of their field of competence.


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## Cunning Linguist (Apr 27, 2006)

> This is why outsiders should not speak about matters out of their field of competence.


Yes, because you can only have a worthwhile opinion or argument in a chosen subject if you are deemed an 'expert'.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ You can have an opinion, but you can't pass them as facts.


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## UrbanImpact (Jan 10, 2005)

AltinD said:


> ^^ You can have an opinion, but you can't pass them as facts.


It is a fact that Dubai is building non-enviromentaly friendly cities. Just look at the pictures and the building stats. Skyscrapers (especially non-green energy hogging) built in an auto orientated city in the desert. It's not that hard to figure out. Same goes for China (minus the desert). They aren't the only places in the world doing this (obviously), but it's happening at an alarming rate.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

Dubai really screwed up by putting a major highway right through the center of it.


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## Jim856796 (Jun 1, 2006)

Are casinos an example of wasteful urban development? I think that casinos are a waste of space and the cities that have them, especially Las Vegas, are white elephants.


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## UrbanImpact (Jan 10, 2005)

Jim856796 said:


> Are casinos an example of wasteful urban development? I think that casinos are a waste of space and the cities that have them, especially Las Vegas, are white elephants.


Casinos are not examples of wasteful urban development. You may not like them but they are entertainment venues and CAN be built to compliment the surrounding enviroment (Monte Carlo, Monaco). They can also be built to integrate with the urban enviroment (unfortunatly most aren't) I agree with you that a lot of the casinos in Las Vegas and other places are white elephants. But there are plenty of casinos (especially here in America) that compliment the surrounding areas. 

Here is the Hard Rock Casino near my house.


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

philadweller said:


> Dubai really screwed up by putting a major highway right through the center of it.


I can`t see a mayor highway cutting Dubais city center.


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## UrbanImpact (Jan 10, 2005)

Tom_Green said:


> I can`t see a mayor highway cutting Dubais city center.


He probably ment modern Dubai.


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

UrbanImpact said:


> He probably ment modern Dubai.


I know but it is not the city center. Dubai is not Chicago were skyscrapers mark the center.


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## Chicagoago (Dec 2, 2005)

This is the highway.....the area where most of the growth/action is occurring.


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## SuburbanWalker (Jun 23, 2007)

There are valid criticisms such as those on the manmade islands, but that article also contains age-old and perverse fallacies about skyscrapers and cities. Suppose you have two options to house a 100 million people, the first to concentrate them in high-density towers and the second to scatter them in single-family housing, which is the most environment-friendly option? The first of course. 
Low-density development takes up far more land on its own and also for the additional transportation infrastructure that's required for commuting. And since people need to commute longer distances, there also are more emmissions. Even a skyscraper that isn't built according to green standards is better than swathes of single-family homes with solar panels plastered on their roofs or whatever.
It is sickening that self-proclaimed environmentalists continue to stick to their preconceptions towards high-density urban areas, even when it has already been shown how destructive sprawl is.


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## TowerPower (Nov 23, 2005)

What's more wasteful, one skyscraper or 150 desert villas? Density is something the author ignores.


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

Chicagoago said:


> This is the highway.....the area where most of the growth/action is occurring.


No it`s not. 
There are only around 15 skyscrapers u/c next to the highway. But all in all Dubai has 330 skyscrapers u/c. 
The Trade Center project, the DIFC the Burj Dubai area and the Business Bay are build south of that highway.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

First this:



UrbanImpact said:


> It is a fact that Dubai is building non-enviromentaly friendly cities. Just look at the pictures and the building stats. Skyscrapers (especially non-green energy hogging) built in an auto orientated city in the desert. It's not that hard to figure out. Same goes for China (minus the desert). They aren't the only places in the world doing this (obviously), but it's happening at an alarming rate.



... and then this:



UrbanImpact said:


> Casinos are not examples of wasteful urban development. You may not like them but they are entertainment venues and CAN be built to compliment the surrounding enviroment (Monte Carlo, Monaco). They can also be built to integrate with the urban enviroment (unfortunatly most aren't) I agree with you that a lot of the casinos in Las Vegas and other places are white elephants. But there are plenty of casinos (especially here in America) that compliment the surrounding areas.


Oh the irony :rofl:


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

philadweller said:


> Dubai really screwed up by putting a major highway right through the center of it.


They didn't put any, instead developments are taking place around the EXISTING highway, fuelled by easy accessibility and possibility to have some kind of unobstructed views.

In the highway, right in front of the recently completed 333 meters tall Rose Rotana Hotel, there's a road sign showing distances and it says: "*DUBAI - 9 km*"

Case Closed.


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## _00_deathscar (Mar 16, 2005)

AltinD said:


> This is why outsiders should not speak about matters out of their field of competence.


Can we get rid of this forum then?


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## UrbanImpact (Jan 10, 2005)

AltinD said:


> First this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What irony? Casinos can be built using mixed development techniques (commercial or residential and both) and to compliment it's enviroment. Some are built this way and some aren't. How is this irony? To me it seems like Dubai is going on the Las Vegas planning path (which enviromentaly and urban speaking, is no good)


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## Epi (Jul 21, 2006)

Well technically Dubai is more wasteful than Shanghai. China has over 1 billion people to house, 20 million in the Shanghai area alone so their skyscrapers are meaningful. There are actually people there that need places to live and so on.

Dubai is a Disneyland resort city catering to rich people from all around the world, who fly to the middle of the desert to live in well air-conditioned environments while guzzling gas all the way. The actual population of locals is nowhere enough to support Dubai. So on a per capita basis on the actual number of full-time citizens vs energy wasted, Dubai surpasses Shanghai by ridiculous amounts.

That said, we could all be more green. I guess not everyone can be Denmark.


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## Jim856796 (Jun 1, 2006)

UrbanImpact said:


> Casinos are not examples of wasteful urban development. You may not like them but they are entertainment venues and CAN be built to compliment the surrounding enviroment (Monte Carlo, Monaco). They can also be built to integrate with the urban enviroment (unfortunatly most aren't) I agree with you that a lot of the casinos in Las Vegas and other places are white elephants. But there are plenty of casinos (especially here in America) that compliment the surrounding areas.
> 
> Here is the Hard Rock Casino near my house.


Well, what about the implosions that happen in Las Vegas? I've seen about 7 structures that were imploded before their time, especially the Stardust West Tower. Personally, I think all the casinos in the world are white elephants, especially the ones with *NO HOTEL ROOMS*! :bash:


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## FM 2258 (Jan 24, 2004)

Anything humans do can be considered wasteful. It's how men get laid. Peacocks have elaborate feathers, men have art, music, good food and skyscrapers.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

Epi said:


> Well technically Dubai is more wasteful than Shanghai. China has over 1 billion people to house, 20 million in the Shanghai area alone so their skyscrapers are meaningful. There are actually people there that need places to live and so on.
> 
> Dubai is a Disneyland resort city catering to rich people from all around the world, who fly to the middle of the desert to live in well air-conditioned environments while guzzling gas all the way. The actual population of locals is nowhere enough to support Dubai. So on a per capita basis on the actual number of full-time citizens vs energy wasted, Dubai surpasses Shanghai by ridiculous amounts.
> 
> That said, we could all be more green. I guess not everyone can be Denmark.


Don't remind me of Las Vegas, b/c it is hardly a city to me or at least not one that people can live in. Honestly, there is more to a city than just building the latest skyscrapers. The BD will not make Dubai a world city just b/c it will become the new WTB. If this is the case, then why are cities like Tapei and Kula Lumpur still way behind despite building very tall? I wouldn't consider building a city in the middle of the desert. What green energy can Dubai use when there is barley any trees except for cacti? I am not surprised about the cost of water going up b/c this is city with hardly any rivers not to mention high temperatures all the time making it very hard to rationalize with water. Despite the fact that Dubai can build the latest skyscrapers, the government keeps a number of traditional Islamic laws to prevent a number of modern activities outside of religion.


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## Krattle (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote from article: "The facts tell us that three-quarters of the carbon dioxide in the world, which is the biggest greenhouse gas, is emitted by cities."

Everything about that statement is wrong. Man contributes only a few percent of total CO2 in the world - almost all of it comes from volcanoes and the oceans. Even worse, CO2 IS NOT the "biggest greenhouse gas." Go get a basic science textbook. You need it.

However, it's probably true that out of man-made CO2 most of it comes from cities. But that's not what the article said.


Quote #2: "The high-rise financial district of Pudong has come up on paddy fields in the island off the famed bund or river front, but the buildings lack any identity and are enormously wasteful of energy and materials. China, in fact, is the very epitome of everything that has gone wrong with urban development. Only one per cent of the country’s 560 million city-dwellers breathe air considered safe by European standards."

China is NOT a modern country, repeat NOT a modern country. It's just beginning to develop, and so is comparable to England during the Industrial Revolution in terms of it's ability to control harmful emissions. Over time China will start using cleaner sources of energy, but to criticize them for not utilizing the most expensive means of energy production - nuclear, solar, etc. - in their beginning stages of development is just plain stupid. Also, I don't see why the "identity" of a building is at all relevant to the matter of their environmental friendliness. Whoever wrote this article just hates cities and skyscrapers.


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

TalB said:


> The BD will not make Dubai a world city just b/c it will become the new WTB.


No, but the new largest airport in the world + the expansion of the Jebel Ali port + the Jebel Ali Free Zone + Business Bay + DIFC + World Tarde Center district + the media city + the internet city + ......... will make Dubai a world city.


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## UrbanImpact (Jan 10, 2005)

Krattle said:


> China is NOT a modern country, repeat NOT a modern country. It's just beginning to develop, and so is comparable to England during the Industrial Revolution in terms of it's ability to control harmful emissions. Over time China will start using cleaner sources of energy, but to criticize them for not utilizing the most expensive means of energy production - nuclear, solar, etc. - in their beginning stages of development is just plain stupid. Also, I don't see why the "identity" of a building is at all relevant to the matter of their environmental friendliness. Whoever wrote this article just hates cities and skyscrapers.



I can see how you compare China to the industrial revolution that happend long time back in the West. But I don't think it is an excuse not to have better planning/enviromental practices (we don't have perfect ones either here in the USA). First of all..........sure they might not be a developed nation, but they do own a lot of our(USA) debt and there is tons of capital in China. Second of all...........if they have the history of the Industrial Revolution in front of them...........shouldn't they learn from all the bad mistakes and not follow them? And at last................Nuclear energy is the cheapest form of energy (people just don't want the plants near them)!

from: http://www.nei.org/ 

Economic Performance 

The average electricity production cost in 2004 for nuclear energy was 1.68 cents per kilowatt-hour, for coal-fired plants 1.90 cents, for oil 5.39 cents, and for gas 5.87 cents. 

Nuclear power plants provide low-cost, predictable power at stable prices and are essential in maintaining the reliability of the U.S. electric power system. 

The energy in one uranium fuel pellet—the size of the tip of your little finger—is the equivalent of 17,000 cubic feet of natural gas, 1,780 pounds of coal, or 149 gallons of oil. 

To produce one Watt of electricity, it takes 1.0 lbs. of coal/kWh from coal plants using steam turbines, 0.48 lbs. of natural gas from natural gas using steam turbines, 0.37 lbs. of natural gas/kWh using combined cycle technology, 0.58 lbs. of Heavy Oil/kWh using steam turbines, and .0000008 lbs. of Uranium enriched at 4% U235 and 96% U238 for use in a commercial nuclear reactor. 

A 100 watt light bulb that ran continuously for an entire year would consume 876 kWh. Producing the necessary electricity would require 876 lbs. of coal, 377-324 lbs. of natural gas, 508 lbs. of oil, or 0.0007 lbs. of Uranium enriched to 4% for use in a commercial nuclear reactor.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ I'm "sure" that designing and building a nuclear power plant, costs the same as building a coal fired one, right? 

I myself don't have much problem with the massive hydro power plant they arer building either, despite millions displaced and the impact on the enviroment.


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## Krattle (Dec 29, 2005)

I am sure Nuclear is more expensive than most other forms of producing energy. The plant itself probably costs a small fortune, mining uranium and transporting it is also very expensive I'm sure. Then you have to bury the waste deep under the ground - something you don't have to do with every other form of energy.

On top of that, most governments have strict laws either preventing or hindering the creation of nuclear plants. We do in the US.


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## snow is red (May 7, 2007)

AltinD said:


> ^^ I'm "sure" that designing and building a nuclear power plant, costs the same as building a coal fired one, right?
> 
> I myself don't have much problem with the massive hydro power plant they arer building either, despite millions displaced and the impact on the enviroment.


Where are you going to dispose of the nuclear waste ?


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

Tom_Green said:


> No, but the new largest airport in the world + the expansion of the Jebel Ali port + the Jebel Ali Free Zone + Business Bay + DIFC + World Tarde Center district + the media city + the internet city + ......... will make Dubai a world city.


A city that solely relies on tourism, like Dubai, for its economy isn't a world city.


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

TalB said:


> A city that solely relies on tourism, like Dubai, for its economy isn't a world city.


What do you think about such an economy?

GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 0.1% 
industry: 8.6% 
services: 91.3%

No industrie no agriculture. Is this a real city? Of course it is. That`s the data for Hong Kong. 

Dubai is going the same way. Tourism isn`t everything. Financial services and trade are also very important.


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## luv2bebrown (Nov 4, 2004)

TalB said:


> Don't remind me of Las Vegas, b/c it is hardly a city to me or at least not one that people can live in. Honestly, there is more to a city than just building the latest skyscrapers. The BD will not make Dubai a world city just b/c it will become the new WTB. If this is the case, then why are cities like Tapei and Kula Lumpur still way behind despite building very tall? I wouldn't consider building a city in the middle of the desert. What green energy can Dubai use when there is barley any trees except for cacti? I am not surprised about the cost of water going up b/c this is city with hardly any rivers not to mention high temperatures all the time making it very hard to rationalize with water. Despite the fact that Dubai can build the latest skyscrapers, the government keeps a number of traditional Islamic laws to prevent a number of modern activities outside of religion.


what is more wasteful... building a city in a desert wasteland that searing hot for 6 months of the year? or building a city in a frozen wasteland that is freezing cold for 6 months of the year.
by your logic, all of Canada and half of america is not very green because they waste so much energy on heating!


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## type001 (Sep 21, 2005)

TalB said:


> A city that solely relies on tourism, like Dubai, for its economy isn't a world city.


Exactly!!! And also, I hate to say it but do you think that anyone who lives in the free world is going to want to vacation in a Muslim country especially with all the crap that is going on now?

If it wasn't for this forum, I would have never heard of Dubai. So now think of all the normal people out there who don't visit this forum. You can build 100000 skyscrapers that are 5 miles tall, but that won't really help tourism and it certainly is not going to make it a world city (or even a good city). More people will still visit the Empire State Building because of it's place in History. What are the history books going to say about the BD in a 100 years?


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## unusualfire (May 26, 2004)

Tom_Green said:


> What do you think about such an economy?
> 
> GDP - composition by sector:
> agriculture: 0.1%
> ...


Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Have you ever heard of the term don't put all your eggs into one basket?


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## Krattle (Dec 29, 2005)

What a narrow view. Why do you think you have to be self-sufficient? Where the hell did that concept even come from? Japan certainly isn't self-sufficient and it's one of the richest nations in the world. Hong Kong CAN'T be self-sufficient due to it's size and total lack of all resources. Thus it relies on services - which doesn't just mean tourism.

Hardly a recipe for disaster unless everyone in the whole world suddenly ran out of every resource, countries like this will continue to work, and work very well at that.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

I am not saying that Dubai is a bad place overall, but it seems to be built on globolization and tourism. Some of the new places I have been hearing about tend to be more for buisnesses that are not based within their own borders but are abroad. Just like Las Vegas, Dubai tends to be more of a city to visit rather than to live in. The second the oil runs out or the economy goes bad, Dubai will be sitting in a trade deficit, especially b/c of the fact that they hardly export anything. I am not trying to be an Islamaphobe by saying this.


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## gladisimo (Dec 11, 2006)

^^ I thought the whole reason Dubai is doing all this is to diversify their money bases so that they wont be as reliant on oil as all of its Middle east counterparts are. 

Their ultimate goal is to make Dubai the center of the Middle East (that's what I thought)...

With regards to how wasteful it is, it depends on how successful they are. After all, this world is all about money. If you looked away from money, then MANY things beyond Dubai and Shanghai are wasteful.


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## _00_deathscar (Mar 16, 2005)

gladisimo said:


> ^^ I thought the whole reason Dubai is doing all this is to diversify their money bases so that they wont be as reliant on oil as all of its Middle east counterparts are.


Never was much reliant on oil...


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## AG (Sep 12, 2002)

unusualfire said:


> Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Have you ever heard of the term don't put all your eggs into one basket?


Ever heard of the terms global economy or trade?

The whole point for Dubai's relentless push into diversifying into the services sector covering things such as finance, tourism and transportation is to create a source of income for the emirate that will allow Dubai's economy to continue to grow once the oil supply runs dry, expected to occur around 2015. Dubai has smaller reserves of oil than it's neighbouring emirates do.

The article does miss the point about density contributing to the sustainability of cities. I do believe that a city full of skyscrapers is more sustainable than a sprawling city full of houses and low-rise buildings. However, a lot of skyscrapers being constructed recently are still not sustainable. Many totally ignore alternative forms of producing electrical energy or designing elements that capitalise on using the sun's energy directly, rainwater or reusing waste material. The transportation system in Dubai isn't exactly one to be proud of either, though it is good that Dubai has made a start on introducing a rail system.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

type001 said:


> Exactly!!! And also, I hate to say it but do you think that anyone who lives in the free world is going to want to vacation in a Muslim country especially with all the crap that is going on now?
> 
> If it wasn't for this forum, I would have never heard of Dubai. So now think of all the normal people out there who don't visit this forum. You can build 100000 skyscrapers that are 5 miles tall, but that won't really help tourism and it certainly is not going to make it a world city (or even a good city). More people will still visit the Empire State Building because of it's place in History. What are the history books going to say about the BD in a 100 years?


You are a typical "don't have ... *don't need *a passport" type of guy ... therefore rest assure you're not the kind of public they're aiming to. :cucumber:


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*you forgot one*



Tom_Green said:


> No, but the new largest airport in the world + the expansion of the Jebel Ali port + the Jebel Ali Free Zone + Business Bay + DIFC + World Tarde Center district + the media city + the internet city + ......... will make Dubai a world city.


you forgot to add PUBLIC RELATIONS city..... please.... you dubai lovers are a sad joke...

keep spending that $$$ you fools

internet city???? media city???? seriously folks.....


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

Las Vegas is the worst example of bad urban planning [or LACK OF planning].... 

Vegas was never meant to be a "city"....it was meant to be only a resort town.... it's a disaster in the making.....

as for dubai...well that's what happens when sheiks with too much $$$ are surrounded by fawning idiotic "YES" men


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ Oh no, our beloved troll finally found this thread to feed in his BS appetite. :lol:


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## type001 (Sep 21, 2005)

AltinD said:


> You are a typical "don't have ... *don't need *a passport" type of guy


And?


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## mbuildings (May 6, 2007)

davidearl said:


> you forgot to add PUBLIC RELATIONS city..... please.... you dubai lovers are a sad joke...
> 
> keep spending that $$$ you fools
> 
> internet city???? media city???? seriously folks.....


a good candidate to the brigg


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

type001 said:


> And?


The World does not revolve around USA and you seams to belong to the closed minded crowds. 

There are 6 Billions peoples in this planet and only 300 Millions lives in USA.


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## type001 (Sep 21, 2005)

"The World does not revolve around USA and you seams to belong to the closed minded crowds."

You are correct, and that attitude is definitely amongst a lot of Americans. But another thing that is true about Americans is that we couldn't care less if a foreigner has never heard of our respective hometowns. Just because I said I have never heard of Dubai before coming to this forum does not make me close-minded.


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*gee...that hurts*



AltinD said:


> ^^ Oh no, our beloved troll finally found this thread to feed in his BS appetite. :lol:


you are so funny! I think dubai sucks and is NOT worth all the constant hype and I"m a "troll"???? 

*F*U*!

I am entitled to my opinions and many...MANY... share them

I have NEVER ever said the USA nor chicago is "the best" nor would I be delusional enough to think that the world revolves around the USA

this site is all about skylines and skyscrapers...

I have always said that they do not just "exist"...they are a part of the fabric of a city...the layout... the way people live in the city.... the city vibe etc..... to think otherwise is well.... idiotic and ignoring the PEOPLE of a city.... 

WHO declared YOU to be the "EXPERT"??? Please post your credentials or SHUT THE F*** UP!

so all you asswipes who visit the NYC/Chicago threads and bitch and moan about "boxy" and "dated" buildings are NOT trolls?? 

people like you just cannot wrap your head around the concept that not everybody thinks dubai is all that fabulous....

jealousy?? hardly!!!! sick of BS public relations media??? yes :nuts:


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

davidearl said:


> you are so funny! I think dubai sucks and is NOT worth all the constant hype and I"m a "troll"????
> 
> *F*U*!
> 
> ...



It must be sad for you that the US housing bubble exploded and something like that doesn`t happen in the UAE.


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*give it TIME sweetie...give it time*



Tom_Green said:


> It must be sad for you that the US housing bubble exploded and something like that doesn`t happen in the UAE.



but it WILL happen......

sooner or later no amount of spin and PR will save dubai...

and let's assume Dubai does succeed in filling all of those buildings...eventually they will enjoy all the good...AND THE BAD...of every other major Western City.... crime will increase...poverty..... pollution....

ENJOY!!


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

davidearl said:


> but it WILL happen......
> 
> sooner or later no amount of spin and PR will save dubai...
> 
> ...


Or they will go the Tokyo way. Where the city (already worlds largest city b far) is growing and the people are moving from the suburbs in the city core. 
A low crime rate, high tech, beautiful beaches, sunny weather and world class entertainment will form an urban dream. That is what Dubai can become. 

I always wonder why people critzise other cities they don`t even belong to there own country. They haven`t even visited that city.


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*anti-usa*

Many of you must assume that I'm some kind of anti-arab person here. I assure you I am NOT like that at all. 

Dubai is building many very interesting buildings.... and yes...I do LIKE many of them...... but the world is not black/white.... there is a lot of GREY out there..... I just find that Dubai is not that attractive from a CITY dwellers point of view. 

I have said many times that Chicago is FAR from perfect and has made many very bad choices when it comes to architecture and city planning

I just find Dubai terribly overrated and this opinion seems to infuriate quite a few on here who resort to calling anybody who dares to question the PR machine as a "troll". How mature is that??

What else can you expect from people who are not used to others expressing their views and opinions?


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*Tokyo is NOT dubai*



Tom_Green said:


> Or they will go the Tokyo way. Where the city (already worlds largest city b far) is growing and the people are moving from the suburbs in the city core.
> A low crime rate, high tech, beautiful beaches, sunny weather and world class entertainment will form an urban dream. That is what Dubai can become.
> 
> I always wonder why people critzise other cities they don`t even belong to there own country. They haven`t even visited that city.


You forget that Tokyo...Japan in fact is amazingly one of the most homogenous countries and cities that exists... both ethnically, culturally and economically speaking.

Dubai would be more like Los Angeles or dare I say Sao Paulo.... a large city with a mix of cultures and wide disparity of wealth.... NOT a good mix at all!

Therefore, to cite Tokyo as your example is to not understand how Dubai intends to grow....


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*give it up Tom Green*

throw in the towel bucko... for every statistic and line of reason you belch out of your mouth.... I can cite a rebuttal

oh poor me...stuck here in the awful usa.....

maybe we should let the mexicans know how wonderful dubai really is....

but I would not wish that on my worst enemy... 

besides...I love mexicans! they are sweet people..... and deserve better than dubai


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

davidearl said:


> Many of you must assume that I'm some kind of anti-arab person here. I assure you I am NOT like that at all.
> 
> Dubai is building many very interesting buildings.... and yes...I do LIKE many of them...... but the world is not black/white.... there is a lot of GREY out there..... I just find that Dubai is not that attractive from a CITY dwellers point of view.


You could bring some interesting points if you would make a research. But you come up with points that you have heard or you believe there are right without haven`t seen any evidence. 




davidearl said:


> Dubai would be more like Los Angeles or dare I say Sao Paulo.... a large city with a mix of cultures and wide disparity of wealth.... NOT a good mix at all!


Or more like New York. New York is multicultural and with a big gap between rich and poor but also compared to other American cities safe.


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## Stratosphere 2020 (Sep 15, 2002)

TowerPower said:


> What's more wasteful, one skyscraper or 150 desert villas? Density is something the author ignores.


I agree


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## Stratosphere 2020 (Sep 15, 2002)

type001 said:


> Exactly!!! And also, I hate to say it but do you think that anyone who lives in the free world is going to want to vacation in a Muslim country especially with all the crap that is going on now?
> 
> If it wasn't for this forum, I would have never heard of Dubai. So now think of all the normal people out there who don't visit this forum. You can build 100000 skyscrapers that are 5 miles tall, but that won't really help tourism and it certainly is not going to make it a world city (or even a good city). More people will still visit the Empire State Building because of it's place in History. What are the history books going to say about the BD in a 100 years?


There are many people in the free world that visit muslim countries. A muslim nation like Turkey receives millions of European travellers every year.

Many Europeans heard or know of Dubai. I have noticed that Europeans are more aware of what is going on in the World, than the average American.


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*tired arguments*



Stratosphere 2020 said:


> There are many people in the free world that visit muslim countries. A muslim nation like Turkey receives millions of European travellers every year.
> 
> Many Europeans heard or know of Dubai. I have noticed that Europeans are more aware of what is going on in the World, than the average American.



I'm NOT the average American.... I've always known of Abu Dhabi.... Dubai?? was nothing till about 10 years ago... so WHY would the average American know of Dubai??? But yes... most Americans are very ignorant of world politics and geography... geographic isolation does not help...neither does fact that the world has pretty much adopted American culture

Turkey is not the same kind of "muslim" country as say.... the United Arab Emirates..... now don't even try the "give me evidence" BS... you ALL know this to be the truth

Turkey has Roman, Byzantine, Islamic, Greek, Hellenistic sites among others.... not bad for an ignorant American huh?? maybe THAT is why more people visit Turkey... oh yes.... and many cruise ships stop there as well..... 

Safe to say most of the Americans on this site [if not all] have been exposed to other cultures and have the education to make informed arguments....

I am so tired of the anti-usa bashing on here. Any negative comment is construed as "jealousy" .... are you guys teenagers? You act like you're in Junior High.


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*evidence*



Tom_Green said:


> You could bring some interesting points if you would make a research. But you come up with points that you have heard or you believe there are right without haven`t seen any evidence.
> 
> Or more like New York. New York is multicultural and with a big gap between rich and poor but also compared to other American cities safe.


and where do I get all this "evidence"?? from the people who benefit the most?? the developers?? sheik mo's website?? the PR briefs??? are you joking???
HA HA!! ROFL! you HOPE Dubai would become like NYC...but it never will.... NYC is a living breathing pulsating city.... hard to duplicate that from within air-conditioned mega-malls and villas..... NYC has a vibe you could never purchase no matter how much $$$ they spend

oh...and NYC has a thriving middle class...just not in Mahattan..... so why don't you do YOUR research and provide YOUR evidence...:bash:

how sad for a country to get all excited cause one pop star supposedly "purchased" land in their country.... the land was probably given to him... 

has anybody ever seen a celebrity in dubai who was NOT there on a tour??? do any of them actually SPEND TIME THERE??? all these ghost celebrity dubai property owners.... 

people trip over celebrities in NYC and LA.... sad indeed


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

Davidearl, you're awesome. You've said everything I've ever wanted to say about Dubai.

I've been to the UAE, Dubai's old town is slightly interesting, but the new part of the city is about as fake as Ru Paul's snatch. It'll never be a city for people.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

type001 said:


> Just because I said I have never heard of Dubai before coming to this forum does not make me close-minded.


Of course not, and I didn't said what I did becouse of that, rather because of the rest of your post.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

davidearl said:


> you are so funny! I think dubai sucks and is NOT worth all the constant hype and I"m a "troll"????
> 
> *F*U*!
> 
> ...


You're not just a troll ... you are an agressive troll :lol:


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

davidearl said:


> HA HA!! ROFL! you HOPE Dubai would become like NYC...but it never will....  NYC is a living breathing pulsating city.... hard to duplicate that from within air-conditioned mega-malls and villas..... NYC has a vibe you could never purchase no matter how much $$$ they spend
> 
> oh...and NYC has a thriving middle class...just not in Mahattan..... so why don't you do YOUR research and provide YOUR evidence...:bash:


Proove me that Dubai is not vibrant and that Dubai don`t has a thriving middle class.
Proove me that Dubai is fake. Proove me anything negative related to Dubai. Just proove it, no more bla bla bla.


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## weltfuhrer (Nov 9, 2007)

david earl probably has an axe to grind with dubai or arabs. nvm the mods should take action.


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*what???*



weltfuhrer said:


> david earl probably has an axe to grind with dubai or arabs. nvm the mods should take action.


axe to grind?? :nuts: boy you guys just don't know how to take criticism do you?? are you aware of what a free and open society is really like?? where others can share their opinions?? and these are OPINIONS here folks...... like it or not much of what is posted on skyscrapercity forums are personal OPINIONS....and NOT FACTS 

that said I have yet to meet an expat who has spoken glowingly of dubai... they are there for the $$$$ and NOT because it's such a fabulous place to live

but what do I know??? I"m just an average american troll who is so jealous of all the amazing superprojects that will make Dubai the city of the FUTURE.....

gee I wish I could live there..... but I'm stuck here in Chicago.....go ahead... make some negative comments about Chicago... I'll probably AGREE with you on some of them...many in fact.... and that you see gentlemen is the difference between you and I..... 

I am a mature intelligent adult who can take criticism.... you obviously cannot....


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ Your earlier post that I quoted above (see post 62) is a clear example of an "mature intelligent adult" 

... unless that's the Chicago standart for it. :lol:


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## snow is red (May 7, 2007)

Why argue ? Both Chicago and Dubai are great cities.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

AltinD said:


> You're not just a troll ... you are an agressive troll :lol:


How about instead of going on the all out defensive, you proove why you think that Dubai is not a wasteful urban developement. No offense AltinD, but you tend to really act that way whenever someones criticizes Dubai, and I know how you acted when someone post Tia O'Neal's Top 20 Reasons not to visit Dubai and cried how much of a liar she was for saying those things. Also, you tend to act as if Dubai is really the most perfect place in the world when there is really no such thing, plus you tend to deny any flaws where others admit them of their places. It's like saying that nobody ever bats 1.000, or even shoots 1.000 from the floor. The perfect place only exists in one's dream, not in real life for paradise is a state of a mind. BTW, this is constructive criticism, not destructive.


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## Tom_Green (Sep 4, 2004)

Altin sometimes i wish i wouldn`t react to all that Dubai bashing.

Why?

Because the time is working against them. 



3 years and one month left before i go the third time to Dubai. I really can`t wait.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

TalB said:


> How about instead of going on the all out defensive, you proove why you think that Dubai is not a wasteful urban developement. No offense AltinD, but you tend to really act that way whenever someones criticizes Dubai, and I know how you acted when someone post Tia O'Neal's Top 20 Reasons not to visit Dubai and cried how much of a liar she was for saying those things. Also, you tend to act as if Dubai is really the most perfect place in the world when there is really no such thing, plus you tend to deny any flaws where others admit them of their places. It's like saying that nobody ever bats 1.000, or even shoots 1.000 from the floor. The perfect place only exists in one's dream, not in real life for paradise is a state of a mind. BTW, this is constructive criticism, not destructive.


I reacted to this posted by davidearl:



> *F*U*!
> ...
> 
> SHUT THE F*** UP!
> ...


... as for those 20 reasons, I didn't called anyone a liar, you are confusing me with someone else ... what I said is that she seams to have written that during a PMS crisis. :lol:


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

Tom_Green said:


> No, but the new largest airport in the world + the expansion of the Jebel Ali port + the Jebel Ali Free Zone + Business Bay + DIFC + World Tarde Center district + the media city + the internet city + ......... will make Dubai a world city.


As I bring this post up again after looking more at the issue, it seems more like building rides for an amusement park rather than making it a livable city.


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ And what makes you think that Dubai is not a livable city? 

Does it has to be dirty, full of crime, smelling of urine, with an outdated infrastructure and ugly falling to pieces shops and roads to be considered a livable city? Does someone has to sense the danger to his life on every corner and dark alley to feel alive? 

You kids don't know what are you talking about.


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## Lusitania (Jul 14, 2007)

I don't see why Davidearl would be classified as a troll; it truly does present him as the victor in this little quarrel as he is being labeled for expressing his views. I'm excited for the UAE over the progress in Dubai, and I would like to VISIT Dubai one day myself, but certain individuals need to learn how to allow criticism to flow, and others to express different views. From the posts I have read from Davidearl, I think it is an absolute outrage that he has been classified as a troll (I do not know of any of his previous posts, but these are certainly NOT troll posts). Dubai is a city with a lot of potential and they are lucky to have a leader with much ambition, but Dubai is no world class city; Dubai proved that cities can be built within a decade, moreover it proved that world class cities cannot be built within that same period of time, and most certainly not within a fortnight


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ As you said, you haven't read his other posts in other threads related to Dubai, or even in the Dubai section of the forum.


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## Jim856796 (Jun 1, 2006)

If a city like Dubai or Shanghai is an example of wasteful urban development, does this mean that the city is a white elephant?


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

AltinD said:


> ^^ And what makes you think that Dubai is not a livable city?
> 
> Does it has to be dirty, full of crime, smelling of urine, with an outdated infrastructure and ugly falling to pieces shops and roads to be considered a livable city? Does someone has to sense the danger to his life on every corner and dark alley to feel alive?
> 
> You kids don't know what are you talking about.


You are putting words in my mouth, and that is not what I meant.


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## nygirl (Jul 14, 2003)

AltinD said:


> ^^ And what makes you think that Dubai is not a livable city?
> 
> Does it has to be dirty, full of crime, smelling of urine, with an outdated infrastructure and ugly falling to pieces shops and roads to be considered a livable city? Does someone has to sense the danger to his life on every corner and dark alley to feel alive?
> 
> You kids don't know what are you talking about.


And whose standards are those supposed to be now?


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## Siopao (Jun 22, 2005)

No ones bashing Shanghai. 

Poor Shanghai.


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## snow is red (May 7, 2007)

Siopao said:


> No ones bashing Shanghai.
> 
> Poor Shanghai.


Don't worry, after your post , all the arrows will be aimed at Shanghai


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## kix111 (Jun 14, 2007)

peace....

please continue on the discussion about dubai....


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

building a city in desert is a good idea, desert---needn't distroy trees and enviroment,saving farm land.


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## oliver999 (Aug 4, 2006)

Siopao said:


> No ones bashing Shanghai.
> 
> Poor Shanghai.


shanghai build a lot of highrises, saving a lot of farmland(compair to townhouse or villa sprawl), so neednt blam shanghai


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## TU 'cane (Dec 9, 2007)

yeah but there building so many it doesnt matter!!:lol::lol:


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*we focus on different things*



AltinD said:


> ^^ And what makes you think that Dubai is not a livable city?
> 
> Does it has to be dirty, full of crime, smelling of urine, with an outdated infrastructure and ugly falling to pieces shops and roads to be considered a livable city? Does someone has to sense the danger to his life on every corner and dark alley to feel alive?
> 
> You kids don't know what are you talking about.


I think the main difference here is people expect...no... they WANT different things from cities....

NYC and Chicago both have very old building stock spanning over 100 years with buildings from every decade... and their infrastructure is indeed very old... we have outlandishly wealthy, middle class, and many poor people... both have very clean pristine areas and very dirty nasty gross areas.... 

but I'll choose both of them EVERY TIME over much newer areas like Phoenix and San Diego that are IN MY VIEW very boring, stale, and cookie cutter. They have NO SOUL to them at all.....

Doesn't any of this make any sense to people out there?? To have hundreds of skyscrapers over 200m high with acres of land between them... impenetrable plazas and roads preventing any form of pedestrian activity....well that is just BAD CITY PLANNING.... has anybody every been to parts of SW Washington DC??? .. the L'Enfant Plaza area is cut off from the rest of the city due to highways and huge office complexes and plazas that are essentially urban wastelands devoid of life after 6pm and all day on weekends.... 

I chose to move to Chicago from Washington DC over areas like LA, Miami, Dallas, Phoenix because Chicago for me had it all: amazing skyline, nightlife, culture, down-to-earth mid-western attitude [and was less expensive than San Fran and NYC!!]. It's hard to put into words sometimes. It's a "vibe" once gets that you are indeed in a CITY. You get it in Chicago in the Loop and River North areas... All of Manhatten.... Dubai?? not quite

When I see pics of Dubai I think of the Tyson's Corner area of Washington DC metro.... except on steroids.... very suburban with very very very tall buildings.... but it's still suburban in feel and mentality... only someone who loves suburban living would make statements like that about "urine" and "sense of danger". What cities have you actually lived in?? and for how long?? 

I have yet to meet someone who loves city living that would make such statements. Nobody in their right mind LOVES smelling urine and being a victim of crime. That said, most world class cities have some level of poverty, dirt, crime, and other negatives. Look for it and you will find it everywhere... Hong Kong, Tokyo, LA, Rio, Madrid, Istanbul, everywhere....Dubai has evidently pushed all of it's "dirty laundry" to the other emirates [sharjah] 

As for Dubai and it's city vibe:
does anybody actually WALK on Sheik Zayed Road?? What other city has dozens of "supertalls" lined up next to each other without any perceptible pedestrian activity between them? Can you even cross SZR to get to another building on the other side?


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## luv2bebrown (Nov 4, 2004)

davidearl said:


> As for Dubai and it's city vibe:
> does anybody actually WALK on Sheik Zayed Road?? What other city has dozens of "supertalls" lined up next to each other without any perceptible pedestrian activity between them? Can you even cross SZR to get to another building on the other side?


yes people walk on sheikh zayed road. have you ever heard of the summer? its 120 degrees here so only fools would be walking on the street. in minneapolis, there is absolutely no street life, because the streets are built INDOORS in the skyway system because of the extreme weather. same principle in dubai. and you may not have realized this, but sheikh zayed road is only the NEW and incomplete city centre.

here is a video i took a year ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwCaB0h4Ujs
i can see 1 or 2 pedestrians AT LEAST


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ I once posted a picture of my car thermometer showing an outside temperature of 52 degree centigrate (126 Fahreneit). I was driving in Nasser Square area and it was PACKED, as always.

I've been to NYC, and the only "vibe" you get in manhatan is the crowd of people. Why should crowds of peoples impress me? I don't come from some dead tiny places where people go to slip by 10PM and you see the same few faces everyday. 

Dubai is crowded and often more then I would prefer. It is certanly more crowded and lively then Vienna (Austria) where I was living before comming here.


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## weltmeister (Nov 11, 2007)

i dont understand who would be stupid enough to believe just because a city has a crowded region it has a 'soul' and is 'attractive'? only idiots would think so imho.


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## weltmeister (Nov 11, 2007)

dubai has nothing to prove to detractors who're blinded by emotion propaganda or fanatic belief.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

I think that some of you that attack critics of Dubai tend to miss the real point. There is more to a city than just being able to build a lot of skyscrapers. In reality, it is actually cheaper to build skyscrapers in Dubai than it is in NYC, so the land value isn't that high. If you really want to talk about NYC, they had transportation way before there were skyscrapers whearas Dubai barely has any mass transit, though they only started now building a metro even though it was needed at least a decade ago. A building boom doesn't necessairly make it prestigous either. Also, Dubai doesn't seem to build on aesthetics, they tend to build on the wealth of corporations who can easily take the land by having the money for it.


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## luv2bebrown (Nov 4, 2004)

^^ i think you are missing the point. dubai is more than just skyscrapers. 
i think you fail to realize that out of a city population of 1.5 million, there is only a small strip of skyscrapers yet for you, that tiny strip of skyscrapers DEFINE the entire city... which is a convenient way for you to push your agenda. its laughable that all dubai bashers bash dubai based on skyscrapers that havent even been built yet!


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

For the record, 10 years ago the population of the city was less then half of what it is now, so saying that it needed the Metro back then is pure BS. 

Even more BS and insanely naive is this one: _"... Dubai doesn't seem to build on aesthetics, they tend to build on the wealth of corporations who can easily take the land by having the money for it..."_


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*???*



weltmeister said:


> dubai has nothing to prove to detractors who're blinded by emotion propaganda or fanatic belief.


sweetie I could give a rat's ass about Dubai! what bugs many who do not buy into all the dubaisms is the almost robotic propaganda from people who evidently love dubai and all that is happening there. 

I love Chicago but it is far from perfect and I don't have time to list or detail everything I would change or improve upon here in Chicago. Doesn't anybody in Dubai have any criticism of ANYTHING there? stupid projects? ugly building? bad traffic?? anything????

you all seem like robots who just churn out the same tune

This is NOT about hating Arabs or being "jealous" of Dubai. If Dubai were a person it would be Donald Trump: bloated, egomaniac, self-centered, self-promoting, over-the-top, elitist, and well....TACKY. 

I'm a complete snob in many ways and Dubai fails on many levels to impress me.... 

I'm sorry this seems to make some people here crazy but it takes more than the "World's biggest, tallest, fattest, fastest, newest, most expensive, shiniest whatever" to impress me... and everytime you write about how Dubai is the city of the future I have to bring you back to reality....

Be very careful about your predictions for the future...nobody really knows how it will turn out. Dubai is a work in progress. You all should show more critical thinking


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## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Has this become the "Vent about Dubai" thread perhaps? :shifty:


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## davidearl (Sep 10, 2007)

*there is no "agenda"*



luv2bebrown said:


> ^^ i think you are missing the point. dubai is more than just skyscrapers.
> i think you fail to realize that out of a city population of 1.5 million, there is only a small strip of skyscrapers yet for you, that tiny strip of skyscrapers DEFINE the entire city... which is a convenient way for you to push your agenda. its laughable that all dubai bashers bash dubai based on skyscrapers that havent even been built yet!


why are you guys so paranoid?? there isn't any "agenda" here folks... I"m expressing my opinions and sharing criticisms of Dubai

I'm not some secret agent of the CIA or anything here...just an AMATUER skyscraper buff..nothing more.... but I do read more than trash supermarket tabloids to get my information: NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, Financial Times, Wall St. Journal... so cut me a break will ya?! 

Chicago...a city of 3 million..[metro area of 10 million] could not support what Dubai has built and is planning to build! If none of you question the economic viability of many of these projects, then you all deserve to lose your shirts off your backs in the property bubble collapse

why is it "propaganda" to state [quite accurately] that Dubai's economy is backed by the government when many of the biggest companies are contolled/financed in large part by the Mahktoum Family? 

so stop the knee-jerk reactions claiming "jealousy" and an "anti-arab" bias... it's BS

anytime I meet someone with an huge ego and even bigger mouth I relish the chance to cut them down to size and give them a reality-check.... thus dubai enthusiasts need to show more than a fawning adoration of everything tall new and shiny. 

I am hoping the Chicago Spire turns out OK... I'm NOT a big fan of the building's design... I HATE the location of the building [would be better at wolf point next to Merchandise Mart] I hope I'm wrong... see??? criticism isn't that bad is it??


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

davidearl said:


> sweetie I could give a rat's ass about Dubai! what bugs many who do not buy into all the dubaisms is the almost robotic propaganda from people who evidently love dubai and all that is happening there.
> 
> I love Chicago but it is far from perfect and I don't have time to list or detail everything I would change or improve upon here in Chicago. Doesn't anybody in Dubai have any criticism of ANYTHING there? stupid projects? ugly building? bad traffic?? anything????
> 
> you all seem like robots who just churn out the same tune


We who live in here know THOUSANDS times better then you the negative aspects of the city and we DO criticize it. For us a constructive critic or a simple opinion is welcomed and appreciated. 

However we have also seen waves of arrogant uninformed robotic "davidearls", one ofter another, for the past 3 years so we know what we are talking about when we reply to them/you.


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## TalB (Jun 8, 2005)

Honestly, I was never a fan of urban clusters, and Dubai shows that it has that. I would probably call it more the Tokoyo of the Mid East b/c NYC doesn't have urban clusters. Dubai really needs to start placing zoning laws so that they can allow for their skyscrapers to breath. Even NYC doesn't build a bunch of skyscrapers near each other that close, and having blocks where their aren't any highrises does show the variety of culture that it has to offer as well as the the urban chaos in the urban core.


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## luv2bebrown (Nov 4, 2004)

davidearl said:


> sweetie I could give a rat's ass about Dubai!


i think you meant to say "I could NOT give a rat's ass about Dubai" in order to suggest that it is not possible under any circumstances to give a rat's ass about Dubai.

by saying "I COULD give a rat's ass about Dubai" you are implying that there are certain circumstances which (should they arise) would cause you to actually give a rat's ass about Dubai


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## luv2bebrown (Nov 4, 2004)

TalB said:


> Honestly, I was never a fan of urban clusters, and Dubai shows that it has that. I would probably call it more the Tokoyo of the Mid East b/c NYC doesn't have urban clusters. Dubai really needs to start placing zoning laws so that they can allow for their skyscrapers to breath. Even NYC doesn't build a bunch of skyscrapers near each other that close, and having blocks where their aren't any highrises does show the variety of culture that it has to offer as well as the the urban chaos in the urban core.


dubai doesnt have urban clusters. it has the central city which is just wall to wall 4-8storey buildings. then it just has skyscraper clusters one of which (sheikh zayed road, DIFC, business bay, burj dubai complex) will become the new central CBD.

let me explain how the growth of skyscrapers in Dubai is actually organic.

the reason you see the skyscrapers in these skyscraper clusters is because of zoning laws in the central part of the city which prohibits skyscrapers from being built. the reason for these laws is because the Airport is practically in the city centre. With the exception of Hong Kong with regard to Kai-tak, any other city would build skyscrapers within the central part of the city because the airport is never in the central part of the city. old smaller buildings would be demolished and replaced gradually with skyscrapers as the city grew. manhattan would not look like manhattan today if say JFK airport was built on manhattan itself.

since the central part of the city is densely populated with low rise buildings, because skyscrapers cannot be built in these areas, and because the government wants to preserve the central part of the city, any growth in Dubai would require sprawl. the drive to push urban development out of the city center resulted in the creation of the city's first real highway (sheikh zayed road). back in the day when there was no traffic, getting to Sheikh Zayed Road was such a breeze because accessibility was so good due to the new highway. consequently, land prices around this small strip of highway ballooned making SZR a prime location for real estate. It made the most sense for people to start building 20 storey towers on this strip. As the strip developed, land prices further increased, the prestige of the area also increased and thus people started building taller and taller towers in the area. Since the trade center and exhibition halls were already in the area, this skyscraper strip was chosen to essentially become the new CBD. when land prices are so high, it does not make sense to build anything other than skyscrapers. hence you see this 2D (soon to be 3D) skyscraper cluster with no low rise surrounding the towers. The huge profitability of these skyscrapers eventually led to the new skyscraper cluster projects you hear about like the Dubai Marina.


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## Puntagorda (Jan 19, 2003)

> Doesn't any of this make any sense to people out there?? To have hundreds of skyscrapers over 200m high with acres of land between them... impenetrable plazas and roads preventing any form of pedestrian activity....well that is just BAD CITY PLANNING.... has anybody every been to parts of SW Washington DC??? .. the L'Enfant Plaza area is cut off from the rest of the city due to highways and huge office complexes and plazas that are essentially urban wastelands devoid of life after 6pm and all day on weekends....


I´m sure most Europeans understand what you mean and would support your views...

Different cultures - different tastes and priorities. If the Arab or Chinese like that kind of planning, stuff it!
I´m just sometimes disappointed that many of "our" (Western/European) development enthusiasts so quickly abandon established patterns of urbanity in favour of tawdry, soulless highrises and flyovers...


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## AltinD (Jul 15, 2004)

^^ So urbanity = gothic style midrises? Do you want also the horse pulled cart to go with that? :weird:

You are stuck in the 19th century my friend and don't want to get a clue why change happens


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