# When did Little Italy (Manhattan) cease to be the ethnic enclave that it once was?



## kingsdl76 (Sep 1, 2007)

Hi everyone,

A topic thats always interested me is Little Italy in Manhattan. I get down to that area (Mulberry St.) a couple times a year and although the neighorhood isnt what it once was, I still love the vibe. You can still find tasty Italian food and there's a certain charm that greets you as you leave the hustle and bustle of Chinatown and cross into whats left of 'Little Italy'

One question always weighs heavily on my mind as I walk the streets of that neighborhood:

When did Little Italy cease to become predominately Italian? I understand that at its zenith, the neighborhood was home to close to 80,000 Italians!.. amazing. As I understand it now, there's fewer than 5000 and that number continues to decrease.

I realize that Italians have been leaving that area for decades.. but what I'd really like to know is when exactly did it really lose its authentic quality?... in the late 80s/early 90s?

I'm going to comb through the internet and find vintage photos of Little Italy as it once was and I hope that others can post photos they find or perhaps their own photos of Little Italy as it once was.

Also, please feel free to share any stories you have of your experiences in Little Italy... past and present.

Thank You!..


----------



## ThatDarnSacramentan (Oct 26, 2008)

I can't say much for Mulberry Street, but honestly, I always felt that the most authentic Italian part of New York City was Arthur Avenue in the Bronx. I've walked that street many times, and half the time, I don't even hear English being spoken by the store owners or the shoppers.

As for Mulberry Street, it probably started declining as Chinese immigration grew and Italian immigration declined. After all (I'm pretty sure on this one), Little Italy used to be many blocks, but Chinatown gradually took them over.


----------



## Firewheel (Feb 18, 2009)

The Italians became Americans


----------



## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

I first went through Mulberry St. in the seventies. Bums were sleeping in doorways under piles of newspapers and the buildings were decrepit and nasty. The place was foul. It got cleaned up in the '80s and gentrified as well. I suppose the decline happened after WW2 and the Italians who once lived there moved out except a few last holdouts. Like so much of NYC, that neighborhood lost its early inhabitants and were replaced by newer ones from different places. Nothing stays the same (except for the superrich in the UES  ).


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Italians assimilated (as every immigrant group should) into American society instead of indoctrinating their American-born offspring into their Italian culture, language and customs - they blended in. There are millions of Italian-Americans, but they are totally integrated within the mainstream society. Same happened for Irish, Swedish, German - all groups with strong immigration waves to US.

If only certain other immigrant groups ditched their ancestral languages and identification to fully embrace American identity life would be a lot easier.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying people from Italian background (like me) are better then people with Chinese, Mexican or Philippine backgrounds, just pointing the fact that after WW2 they became far more American than "Italians living in America" and that example should be followed eagerly by other immigrant groups so they can assimilate themselves into American society and forgo past cultural links and influences at the same time they bring their embedded culture into US society.

This would, meanwhile, end the worrying presence of ethnic enclaves in modern cities and metropolitan areas within the USA (think about the Somali in Chicago, the Iraqi in Detroit and so on...). Foreign ethnic enclaves are not nice or socially desirable at all.

Fortunately, gentrification is a hassle-free passive method of striping areas of their foreign-looking character.

Note: I'm not American, lived in Wyoming to study, now I'm back to Netherlands. But the reasoning (ethnic neighborhoods are inherently bad) applies everywhere in the Western developed World.


----------



## binhai (Dec 22, 2006)

It's when the Chinese population increased and took over Little Italy from their "base" in Chinatown. Plus, Italians have mostly assimilated into American society and don't really need their own enclave anymore, there's Italian influences on American culture everywhere.


----------



## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

It's inevitable that immigrant enclaves diminish unless there's a constant stream of new comers from the 'old country'. Eventually, the same will happen to Little Italy, Woodbridge, and Corso Italia in Toronto because Italians don't emigrate to Toronto in massive numbers like they used to. 

The huge size of the Italian community has slowed the rate of assimilation into the broader Canadian culture, but it's probably already in slow and steady decline. The only thing that will reverse it is a continued surge in Italian migration.


----------



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

It still exists in small vestiges, just there are Chinese characters on the signs these days. 

There are also many Italian neighborhoods in other parts of NYC (such as Bensonhurst, Arthur Avenue in Bronx, many parts of SI), btw.



Suburbanist said:


> This would, meanwhile, end the worrying presence of ethnic enclaves in modern cities and metropolitan areas within the USA (*think about the Somali in Chicago*, the Iraqi in Detroit and so on...). Foreign ethnic enclaves are not nice or socially desirable at all.


Minneapolis, not Chicago. :rofl:


----------



## Obscene (Jul 22, 2007)

Yeah, i got a little bit dissapointed when i was visiting mulberry street..

I found a couple of places that gave me the feeling i was looking for..

But most of them was'nt at all like i imagined..

When i started talking to the people serving the food i recognized they were usually eastern europeans such as romanians, albanians och hungarian... Kind of ridicioulous and false-marketing since all the menus, signs, t-shirts and paintings in stores had a large italian influence.. bet they barely know what the name of the food they are serving really mean.

i started talking italian to them at one point and they all replied "sorry there are barely any italians here", :lol:

Segregation is usually a bad thing, but i miss back in the days when neighborhoods had a certain feeling to it... in some way i hate this gentrification shit thats turning all the neighborhoods into identical and sterile without souls. and im not talking about the people and buildings, but also the stores thats opening. might aswell name the neighborhoods after chain-stores like "mcdonalds avenue" and "starbucks heights".


----------



## intensivecarebear (Feb 2, 2006)

Suburbanist said:


> Italians assimilated (as every immigrant group should) into American society instead of indoctrinating their American-born offspring into their Italian culture, language and customs - they blended in. There are millions of Italian-Americans, but they are totally integrated within the mainstream society. Same happened for Irish, Swedish, German - all groups with strong immigration waves to US.
> 
> If only certain other immigrant groups ditched their ancestral languages and identification to fully embrace American identity life would be a lot easier.
> 
> ...


assimilation eventually happens, but it takes time. Italians (and many other European ethnic groups) didn't become "American" overnight. They faced a lot of discrimination from the mainstream society. Plus it helps a bit that Italians are white Europeans, whereas Somalis and Iraqis obviously aren't. People who look different from the majority (white) population will be subject to more scrutiny 
So I think, ethnic enclaves are an inevitable result of any country that receives mass immigration and serve as kind of a social safety net for new immigrants. But eventually large numbers will make money, move to the suburbs, and become "American". The cycle will continue with the next wave of immigrants from who knows what country. 

But I find it kind of funny that the same demographic changes are happening in San Francisco, i.e the Italian community in North Beach (a historically Italian neighborhood) is almost non-existent while the nearby Chinatown area is quickly expanding into this neighborhood.


----------



## kaethar (Aug 26, 2008)

Firewheel said:


> The Italians became Americans


This.


----------



## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Aren't some areas of the other boroughs much more italians?


----------



## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> Italians assimilated (as every immigrant group should) into American society instead of indoctrinating their American-born offspring into their Italian culture, language and customs - they blended in. There are millions of Italian-Americans, but they are totally integrated within the mainstream society. Same happened for Irish, Swedish, German - all groups with strong immigration waves to US.
> 
> If only certain other immigrant groups ditched their ancestral languages and identification to fully embrace American identity life would be a lot easier.
> 
> ...


You are of course right, assimilation is what all immigrant groups should do. 

Though, it's easier for immigrants of european decent to assimilate into the US, since it's an predominantly european origined country. 

If that is an argument to promote european immigration instead of third world dito... Well, thats up to y'all to decide.


----------



## ThatDarnSacramentan (Oct 26, 2008)

eklips said:


> Aren't some areas of the other boroughs much more italians?


Yeah. The Bronx is easily the most truly Italian place left in New York City. Seriously, walk up a few blocks from the Christopher Columbus statue on Arthur Avenue. The architecture and the cars may not say Italy, but it sounds, tastes, and smells like Italy.


----------



## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Suburbanist said:


> This would, meanwhile, end the worrying presence of ethnic enclaves in modern cities and metropolitan areas within the USA (think about the *Somali in Chicago, the Iraqi in Detroit *and so on...). Foreign ethnic enclaves are not nice or socially desirable at all.


O_M_G!!! I had no idea! Flee, flee everyone, for your LIVES. That must just look TERRIBLE.


Ive heard rumour they dont even have WHITE PICKET FENCES!!


----------



## binhai (Dec 22, 2006)

Yeah he really has some of the weirdest ideas I've ever read on any message board


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm not saying "flee for your lives". I'm saying it is not good for any Western country to have ethnic enclaves, or to have a thin but visible minority concentrated in just a handful neighborhoods of the thousands in the whole country.

It creates a sense of "we, the spoiled, few but proud xyzabc against the rest". Assimilation goes better with dispersion. Once there are not 2 enclaves of 80.000 people each from ethnic group abc, but 200 small communities, scattered in lower 48, comprising 800 people which, chances that the 2nd generation of those groups, those born and educated in America, will all but ditch the language of their parents, abandon some more pronounced cultural traits so to fit better in American society and so are greater. Of course assimilation works both ways, but small groups usually can't significantly alter the cultural landscape of the country like the Hispanic or the various southern European groups did.

Then everybody is happy, with or without white fences.

====================

FYI, go to the Department of State website. Somewhere there it says that relocation/asylum/refugee program for Iraqis no longer fund relocation to MI (or Detroit Metro, I'm not sure exactly) and nearby areas unless the person has a 1st-grade relative already living there. Sensible policy IMO.


----------



## Northsider (Jan 16, 2006)

> When did Little Italy (Manhattan) cease to be the ethnic enclave that it once was?


Cities are not stagnant entities. They are always changes, always have, and always will. Neighborhood will change and be redefined. Period.


----------



## urbane (Jan 4, 2005)

eklips said:


> Aren't some areas of the other boroughs much more italians?


Bensonhurst in Brooklyn: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=479547&highlight=bensonhurst

Ozone Park in Queens also has an Italian presence.

Manhattan's Little Italy is the worst of the Little Italy's I have seen. Even San Francisco's is bigger. Baltimore's Little Italy, where I lived for a year, is also much better and has the feeling of a neighborhood: as opposed to being one street.

The most impressive, however, is South Philly: and by that I don't mean the Italian Market but the area south of it near the stadium. Definitely the biggest Italian neighborhood I have seen in the States.


----------



## RobertWalpole (Mar 16, 2010)

ThatDarnSacramentan said:


> I can't say much for Mulberry Street, but honestly, I always felt that the most authentic Italian part of New York City was Arthur Avenue in the Bronx. I've walked that street many times, and half the time, I don't even hear English being spoken by the store owners or the shoppers.
> 
> As for Mulberry Street, it probably started declining as Chinese immigration grew and Italian immigration declined. After all (I'm pretty sure on this one), Little Italy used to be many blocks, but Chinatown gradually took them over.


Most people who live on Arthur Avenue now are Latino, and the language you hear is Spanish. 

People of Italian descent moved out of the city generations ago and live in the suburbs.


----------



## RobertWalpole (Mar 16, 2010)

eklips said:


> Aren't some areas of the other boroughs much more italians?


No. NY has a lot more people of Italian descent than any other city in the US. NY also has a lot more Jews, but no one says that Manhattan or Brooklyn is the Jewish borough.


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

RobertWalpole said:


> Most people who live on Arthur Avenue now are Latino, and the language you hear is Spanish.
> 
> People of Italian descent moved out of the city generations ago and live in the suburbs.


Italian immigration to US started to subside in the 1920's, got a quick spike before and immediately after WW-2 but that was it.


----------



## GENIUS LOCI (Nov 18, 2004)

Firewheel said:


> The Italians became Americans


I think that he means Americans of Italian origin by saying 'Italians'


----------



## xiaoshuaige (Sep 29, 2010)

Blessing of RS Gold Wisdom In the rush for consolidation, this has been tacked onto the old Blessing Buy WOW Goldof Might, taking paladins down to two total blessings. If you're DPS, you'll want to go with url=http://www.storeingame.com]RuneScape Gold[/url]the new and improved Blessing of Might. Divine Intervention Between short graveyard runs and teleprocess inside the raid, there isn't much of a point to having DI anymore. Sure, it's great for us, because we get to skip out on a repair bill. However, we may see a replacement for it later on in the beta ifRuneScape Gold we're lucky. If you need any help or more information about our WOW gold sales during this sales promotion, please contact us instantly!


----------



## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

eklips said:


> Aren't some areas of the other boroughs much more italians?


% wise, Staten Island is almost certainly the most Italian of all the NYC boroughs.


----------

