# ATLANTA | Public Transport



## garcia.calavera (Jun 10, 2009)

wow nice system Atlanta , didnt even know the city has a metro , more pics please :cheers:


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

Great to have a thread on Atlanta at last! I love their system, it is probably one of the least known and most used (compared to world/US knowledge of cities with systems) metro systems we have. The N/S, E/W and connection to the airport make it a great system that connects a large part of the city, it really has been a unifying system.

Steve


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## nature's message (Jun 17, 2009)

garcia.calavera said:


> wow nice system Atlanta , didnt even know the city has a metro , more pics please :cheers:


Will post more tonight. 



tampasteve said:


> Great to have a thread on Atlanta at last! I love their system, it is probably one of the least known and most used (compared to world/US knowledge of cities with systems) metro systems we have. The N/S, E/W and connection to the airport make it a great system that connects a large part of the city, it really has been a unifying system.
> 
> Steve


Definitely. It's a shame that it doesn't recieve state funding. It's a very effective system and it has a solid ridership but it'd likely be compared to the likes of The Metro in DC.


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## nature's message (Jun 17, 2009)

> *List of heavy-rail transit systems in the United States by daily ridership (Q1 2010)*
> 
> 1	New York City Subway	New York City	7,512,100
> 
> ...











http://www.flickr.com/photos/photohound/4145195103/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsand/158867925/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/255286012/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/coolnumber9/2952101678/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/midnightcheese/88805668/in/set-72057594051063126/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/midnightcheese/88805650/in/set-72057594051063126/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/robh/172994/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/chris-yunker/3694850289/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/thegrimsquad/4525930881/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/thegrimsquad/4465910992/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/katchooo/4412833366/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/jasonct/4475870249/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2170338348/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/vegetherrien/3544957138/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/madesigns/35734086/​


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## mopc (Jan 31, 2005)

hhee there wasnt an Atlanta thread before? gee. The MARTA system looks like the Brasília system in Brazil.


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## geoking66 (Jun 27, 2006)

MARTA reminds me of what might happen if the Washington Metro and BART had a child.


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## SM247 (Dec 5, 2006)

It's got a very Melburnian feel - 3 doors, 6-car sets, similar internal layout, car bodies are superficially similar, corrugated surfaces, late 70's feel apparent in the underground station designs. The only huge visual difference is the use of ground-level power instead of catenary.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

Can anyone explain why Avondale station has four tracks while all (except Five Points) of the other stations on the line have 2 (that I am aware of)?

Steve


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## quashlo (Jun 14, 2008)

Avondale Yard, probably.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

For being a "auto-orientated" city I have been impressed by riding MARTA in the past when I have visited Atlanta. It always seems to get used, it is just too bad it does not get enough funding for expansion.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

It doesn't get any state funding because MARTA and Atlanta is located in a state where lot of people and politicians hate anything urban.


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## TheKorean (Apr 11, 2010)

Looks like a small system. Looks very clean though.

Atlanta needs a commuter rail service.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

diablo234 said:


> For being a "auto-orientated" city I have been impressed by riding MARTA in the past when I have visited Atlanta. It always seems to get used, it is just too bad it does not get enough funding for expansion.


It is not so much that the state does not fund the system (thought that is a huge problem) but rather that MARTA must use 50% of their revenue from the sales tax on capital projects and only 50% on running the system. They have a difficult time expanding since they are already stretched too thin for funding the daily operations. If it could be changed to something like 40% for capital projects or even 35% then they could invest in more expansion, IMO.



TheKorean said:


> Looks like a small system. Looks very clean though.
> 
> Atlanta needs a commuter rail service.


Actually IIRC it is the fifth longest (in length) in the USA for heavy rail metro systems. That does not include light rail systems though, so if they are taken into account then several other cities would be higher. Without a doubt though, they do need a belt line LR or HR and commuter rail from outside the current MARTA service area.

Steve


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## Mirage52 (Aug 17, 2010)

IMO, the Atlanta system is on par with what Baltimore should have. A clear N/S line with an E/W line and then a few spurs here and there to serve different communities.


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## FDW (Mar 9, 2010)

geoking66 said:


> MARTA reminds me of what might happen if the Washington Metro and BART had a child.


Well, the Atlanta's metro system was designed and built at the same time as those two systems. (If Forward Thrust had passed in 1968 or 1970 we'd be saying the exact same about Seattle.)


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## TheKorean (Apr 11, 2010)

tampasteve said:


> Actually IIRC it is the fifth longest (in length) in the USA for heavy rail metro systems. That does not include light rail systems though, so if they are taken into account then several other cities would be higher. Without a doubt though, they do need a belt line LR or HR and commuter rail from outside the current MARTA service area.
> 
> Steve


Doesnt really mean much.

Only systems you can use to explore the whole city is Chicago L, NYC Transit, and Washington Metro. I would say LA, since its pretty big, but the system isnt big enough to get to a lot of places.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

tampasteve said:


> It is not so much that the state does not fund the system (thought that is a huge problem) but rather that MARTA must use 50% of their revenue from the sales tax on capital projects and only 50% on running the system. They have a difficult time expanding since they are already stretched too thin for funding the daily operations. If it could be changed to something like 40% for capital projects or even 35% then they could invest in more expansion, IMO.


I also think a larger part of the problem as well is that other local jurisdictions in Metro Atlanta (ie Gwinnett County, Cobb County, Clayton County) refused to join MARTA because of higher sales tax/fear of crime, etc (you know the usual bullsh*t from scared suburbanites).


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Plus the lack of state funding as I mentioned earlier.


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## TampaMike (Sep 11, 2005)

diablo234 said:


> I also think a larger part of the problem as well is that other local jurisdictions in Metro Atlanta (ie Gwinnett County, Cobb County, Clayton County) refused to join MARTA because of higher sales tax/fear of crime, etc (you know the usual bullsh*t from scared suburbanites).


Yep, we're hearing that same BS in Hillsborough County, Florida too about light rail or any rail. Most of the rail lines built in this country run through crime-prone neighborhoods in the first place and have at least one station/stop to connect residents in them neighborhoods. 

MARTA looks like a very successful system though and having the amount of daily riders posted is pretty impressive. Any idea how much the system ridership numbers are when it comes to a Braves or Falcon game?


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## geogregor (Dec 11, 2006)

How about expansion plans? Are there any?


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

geogregor said:


> How about expansion plans? Are there any?


No.


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

Compared with others north american transit sistems, MARTA looks very modern.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

geogregor said:


> How about expansion plans? Are there any?


There are some expansion plans for the MARTA system as a whole, but not the heavy rail component. They are in preliminary planning for a loop light rail line, but it will be years before it gets built - if at all.

Steve


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## Dan78 (Nov 17, 2009)

FabriFlorence said:


> Compared with others north american transit sistems, MARTA looks very modern.


It's only about 30 years old, compared with, say, New York's or Boston's, which are over 100 years old. MARTA is only a little newer than Washington's WMATA Metro.

A similarly designed heavy-rail system was planned for Seattle at the same time, but the measure to have it built there was defeated by 6% points.


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## Dan78 (Nov 17, 2009)

geogregor said:


> How about expansion plans? Are there any?


MARTA is hamstrung by a lack of funding from the State of Georgia. There are numerous reasons for this--"taxophobia", racism, a bias against anything urban (the "poor minority criminals will use public transportation to invade our clean, safe suburbs argument"). Many residents of the surrounding counties to Atlanta use MARTA but these counties don't pay into the system for expansion or maintenance. Barring huge shifts in the way the Americans look at rail/public transport, little will happen.

There were originally going to be several more spurs; most of these aren't being considered anymore, or will be built as BRT or light-rail (a mistake).

The English-language Wikipedia article has a good section on these.

Most of the proposed extensions were "no-brainers". Case in point, Emory University could easily be served by MARTA if a small extension were made, but voters won't vote to fund it. It's a sad situation, but Atlanta should count itself lucky it got MARTA when it did.


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## Mirage52 (Aug 17, 2010)

Dan78 said:


> MARTA is hamstrung by a lack of funding from the State of Georgia. There are numerous reasons for this--"taxophobia", racism, a bias against anything urban (the "poor minority criminals will use public transportation to invade our clean, safe suburbs argument"). Many residents of the surrounding counties to Atlanta use MARTA but these counties don't pay into the system for expansion or maintenance. Barring huge shifts in the way the Americans look at rail/public transport, little will happen.


Sounds like Baltimore. It's a shame most mass transit gets a bad wrap in the US but yet is viewed fine everywhere else in the world. It's like soccer.


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## dwdwone (May 7, 2004)

Atlanta did just get a grant from the federal givernment for a streetcar starter line.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

Hmm, not sure how I missed that: 
The black route in DT is the route that is funded:








From: http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/08/23/for-now-atlanta-ops-to-promote-streetcar-starter-line-over-beltline/

Steve


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

DP


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## Dan78 (Nov 17, 2009)

tampasteve said:


> Hmm, not sure how I missed that:
> The black route in DT is the route that is funded:
> Steve


This, to me, is just bizarre and unneeded. The "Peachtree streetcar" pretty much duplicates the existing heavy-rail line!! Granted, streetcars and subways serve different purposes, and the new streetcar could relieve some pressure from the subway, but the money would be much better spent elsewhere (there are large areas of Atlanta with no rail transit...why not expand MARTA there first before worrying about a streetcar that duplicates an existing route).

MARTA is a good start but there are wide swaths of even the central city that are completely unserved (see the map above). Atlanta should concentrate on those before trying to duplicate existing routes.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Dan78 said:


> This, to me, is just bizarre and unneeded. The "Peachtree streetcar" pretty much duplicates the existing heavy-rail line!! Granted, streetcars and subways serve different purposes, and the new streetcar could relieve some pressure from the subway, but the money would be much better spent elsewhere (there are large areas of Atlanta with no rail transit...why not expand MARTA there first before worrying about a streetcar that duplicates an existing route).
> 
> MARTA is a good start but there are wide swaths of even the central city that are completely unserved (see the map above). Atlanta should concentrate on those before trying to duplicate existing routes.


I think the Peachtree streetcar would be more useful if it continued all the way into Buckhead.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Dan78 said:


> This, to me, is just bizarre and unneeded. The "Peachtree streetcar" pretty much duplicates the existing heavy-rail line!! Granted, streetcars and subways serve different purposes, and the new streetcar could relieve some pressure from the subway, but the money would be much better spent elsewhere (there are large areas of Atlanta with no rail transit...why not expand MARTA there first before worrying about a streetcar that duplicates an existing route).
> 
> MARTA is a good start but there are wide swaths of even the central city that are completely unserved (see the map above). Atlanta should concentrate on those before trying to duplicate existing routes.


The only way that's going to happen if Atlanta and surrounding suburbs secede from state of Georgia, and the Federal government is willing to give more money to MARTA.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

Dan78 said:


> This, to me, is just bizarre and unneeded. The "Peachtree streetcar" pretty much duplicates the existing heavy-rail line!! Granted, streetcars and subways serve different purposes, and the new streetcar could relieve some pressure from the subway, but the money would be much better spent elsewhere (there are large areas of Atlanta with no rail transit...why not expand MARTA there first before worrying about a streetcar that duplicates an existing route).
> 
> MARTA is a good start but there are wide swaths of even the central city that are completely unserved (see the map above). Atlanta should concentrate on those before trying to duplicate existing routes.


I agree to an extent. Perhaps the whole Peachtree line does not need to be built, but a DT circulator is needed. MARTA is great, but there is not enough DT connections outside of the core area and this starter line will help that a lot. Perhaps another loop to the west would be better than a line up Peachtree.

Steve


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

Dan78 said:


> This, to me, is just bizarre and unneeded. The "Peachtree streetcar" pretty much duplicates the existing heavy-rail line!! Granted, streetcars and subways serve different purposes, and the new streetcar could relieve some pressure from the subway, but the money would be much better spent elsewhere (there are large areas of Atlanta with no rail transit...why not expand MARTA there first before worrying about a streetcar that duplicates an existing route).
> 
> MARTA is a good start but there are wide swaths of even the central city that are completely unserved (see the map above). Atlanta should concentrate on those before trying to duplicate existing routes.


I'm a skeptic, too, but the MLK streetcar idea looks a lot less bizarre on the ground than it does on a map. Downtown Atlanta is quite a big place, very spread out, and there's an increasing need to provide service for connections within the greater downtown area, as you noted. 

During the 00's housing boom, many new apartment/condo developments were built in infill locations within half a mile to two miles of downtown, most in areas that aren't within walking distance of the HRT system. The northwestern quadrant has been especially popular; starting at Centennial Park, it spreads outward for several miles, past Georgia Tech and all the way to the Chattahoochee Industrial District. Plus, in recent years Georgia State University has gone from being an entirely commuter school to having dorms several blocks from the campus. This year I worked on a hospital project near the corner of Edgewood and Piedmont, and there's substantial foot traffic between GSU and dorms located north along Piedmont. Add to that traditional traffic to Grady Hospital, the Municipal Market and the King District (which is a significant commercial area as well as a historic/tourist attraction) and there are a lot of potential transit users (or at least people who could opt not to drive) in play.

When the first phase of the MARTA HRT system opened in the summer of 1979, it ended temporarily at Georgia State station, one stop from the system's hub at Five Points (I mean not just the rail system's central station-- the bus routes that serve downtown also ended their routes at or within a few blocks of Five Points). To remedy this irritatingly inconvenient disconnect, the Downtown Loop bus was introduced. It ran (IIRC) along Piedmont and Courtland on the east side, Harris and International to the north, Spring and Techwood (now "Centennial Olympic Park Drive" hno on the west, and Mitchell and King on the south, with buses every ten minutes. In addition to connecting the temporarily-orphaned East line with the rest of the MARTA system, it provided handy service to the periphery of Downtown, and it continued in service for several years after the rest of the downtown rail lines were opened. IMO, we'd be a great deal better off now had the service never been discontinued, and I'd suspect that restarting it today would be a good idea.

But...

Atlanta has been long caught in in the vicious cycle of increasing costs, higher fares and declining ridership that besets many other cities. In fact, it's worse here than it is in many places since a huge proportion of the region's growth occurs in suburban areas that (a)are outside the two-county MARTA service area and (b) would be impossible to serve efficiently with transit even if they weren't. The last HRT extension, to the Perimeter Center area in 2000, increased operating costs enough to force a fare increase, which lead to an overall decline in ridership despite nominally "better" service. We simply can't afford to operate more rail under current funding mechanisms, even if we could afford to build it. Since then, the vicious cycle has forced service cutbacks across the board, to the point where infrequent service makes transit an unappealing option even in places that still have bus and/or rail lines nearby.

IMO, the way forward for transit in Atlanta is a wholesale reform of the funding mechanism. Until that happens, sad as it is, we need to concentrate on fine-grained service improvements that can claw additional ridership out of the legacy network. Unless Bill Gates decides to make it his pet project, the Beltline is just silly, though there are many people who believe otherwise with almost religious fervor.

Since no one's mentioned it yet: GRTA runs an extensive system of commuter express buses:









AFAIK, the GRTA bus routes are largely optimised for the people who use them, not operated as feeders to the regional system, with stops that are convenient to workplaces and only incidental connections to the rail system. There are also several semipublic and private bus shuttles providing a finer grain of service. This is in contrast to MARTA's decades-long practice of subordinating buses to rail and forcing riders into transfers (or long walks) that ought not be necessary.


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

Guys where are pics of MARTA? Could yu post some more?


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)




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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

*Some more photos of the MARTA system in Atlanta:*


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)




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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

That is pretty nice set of pics. Thx


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

> *Regional transportation list approved*
> By Ariel Hart
> The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
> http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/regional-transportation-list-approved-1111374.html
> ...


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

What a mess! hno:



> Gwinnett County: Sugarloaf Parkway extension from Ga. 316 to Ga. 20 (Buford Drive), $296 million


That's the Northern Arc, but with trucks banned so it won't help with freight movement. At least it'd make the currently-under construction segment from GA 20 to GA 316 a bit less useless. Provisions are already being made for its interchange with I-85. 



> Preliminary work on a possible light-rail line from Doraville into Gwinnett County, $95 million


I've never understood where this came from and why. A light rail line that requires a transfer to continue to Buckhead, Midtown, and downtown? It might halfway make sense if my own pet project, the I-285 Doraville to Cumberland transit corridor, had made the cut. But it didn't. As far as that goes, there's an unfinished study for that corridor, but without funding for whatever in recommends except for the 285-400 interchange. 

In a sane city, the roads component would be funded through taxes on road users, including development impact fees. Instead, everyone pays to subsidize further sprawl.

It's very likely that I'll be voting no.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

MARTA DoravilleBound by nsdis, on Flickr


MARTA by nsdis, on Flickr


MARTA by nsdis, on Flickr


Atlanta MARTA. by James Good, on Flickr


marta by Bruno Pin, on Flickr


Midtown MARTA Station by ChrisYunker, on Flickr


Waiting for the Eastbound by Curt, on Flickr


CIMG4363 by wytze, on Flickr


Rehabbed_01 by tracktwentynine, on Flickr


S1-04 by tracktwentynine, on Flickr


S1-06 by tracktwentynine, on Flickr


N9-29 by tracktwentynine, on Flickr


N9-01 by tracktwentynine, on Flickr


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## Professor L Gee (Aug 10, 2009)

Is there any legitimate reason not to extend the existing MARTA line into Gwinnett instead of making it light rail?


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## Dale (Sep 12, 2002)

The newly-refurbished cars are spiffy but the stations look worn-out.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Professor L Gee said:


> Is there any legitimate reason not to extend the existing MARTA line into Gwinnett instead of making it light rail?


Light rail is cheaper to build per mile compared with heavy rail, and the Federal Transit Administration has tended to favor funding new light rail lines over heavy rail lines.

That being said I believe the Gwinnett County Chamber of Commerce wanted to extend the existing MARTA line into Gwinnett County rather than build a completely separate light rail line so that may change.


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## Rail_Serbia (May 29, 2009)

diablo234 said:


>


One of the most important properties is travel without transfer, or not more then one transfer. For this quality of service, Acworth to Conyers need to be one line, for example. 
Other important thing is dense network of bus lines (to have stop everywhere not further then 6-7 min. walk) and frequent service (<=15min. interval). 
In some cities in North America there is name BRT for simple dedicated lanes. That is cheap and useful solution, to improve existing public transport, but it is pointless to call it "rapid transit".


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## Professor L Gee (Aug 10, 2009)

diablo234 said:


> Light rail is cheaper to build per mile compared with heavy rail, and the Federal Transit Administration has tended to favor funding new light rail lines over heavy rail lines.
> 
> *That being said I believe the Gwinnett County Chamber of Commerce wanted to extend the existing MARTA line into Gwinnett County rather than build a completely separate light rail line so that may change.*


That would be nice.
Yeah, light rail is cheaper to build than heavy rail... but at the same time, it just seems to make more sense to extend an already-present heavy rail line than to abruptly change modes.

I know they're still studying how to extend the Green Line in Baltimore (their one subway line), and one of the alternatives is BRT. hno:


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

Professor L Gee said:


> That would be nice.
> Yeah, light rail is cheaper to build than heavy rail... but at the same time, it just seems to make more sense to extend an already-present heavy rail line than to abruptly change modes.


I think it's a Gwinnett thing. There's still massive opposition to MARTA out here. I really have no idea where the light rail proposal came from. Some bigwig's pipe dream, I guess. That kind of thing happens a lot here. The best example would be the Marietta-Lawrenceville ("Mari-Larry") study, which came about on a whim to build a light rail line along GA 120 from Marietta to Lawrenceville with no connection to any other rail. Unsurprisingly, the study found that running it along the Interstates via Perimeter Center was a much better idea, and that light rail to anywhere near Lawenceville was a total nonstarter. hno:

(I already said this :lol One of the many annoying aspects of the sales tax proposal is that it apparently trashes a major opportunity to fund something major in the 285 top end corridor. The Revive 285 study has been going on for years but still hasn't identified a preferred alternative, and if the sales tax is passed per the current proposal, I don't see where the funding would come from, especially for any transit element.

One of the alternatives calls for provision for light rail in the corridor. That combined with the Gwinnett light rail line might halfway makes sense, since it'd provide a one-seat ride to Perimeter Center and the Galleria area and two transfer options to MARTA's heavy rail. 

Another possible option: I was reading up on MARTA's site about the proposed connection to Emory University, and one idea was for a line that could accommodate _both_ heavy and light rail, with heavy rail service ending at Emory and light rail continuing along a nonsensical route to Avondale Station. I've been thinking for years: Might it be feasible to build a light rail line with cars that are dimensionally compatible with MARTA station platforms and have them run on the existing heavy rail system as well as the new light rail line?

It's just a thought. :nuts:

Also: did anyone other than me notice how the Beltline is drawn on the map above, replacing the southeast and northwest segments with an east-west link along (I guess) Tenth Street? I wonder if that has any official status. So far, I see no indication that it has, though it's fun to think about.  



rail_serbia said:


> One of the most important properties is travel without transfer, or not more then one transfer. For this quality of service, Acworth to Conyers need to be one line, for example.


Or Acworth to central Gwinnett via Emory. :banana:


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

diablo234 said:


>


Flat wheel, 0'18"!

For an airport-serving network, just where are the passengers?!?


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

trainrover said:


> For an airport-serving network, just where are the passengers?!?


When I've ridden it to/from the airport, most of the passengers were employees. I suppose dependability and accessibility are issues.

Still, it's not entirely hopeless. According to the chart you'll find here, we still have more passengers per mile than Chicago MTA, BART or :lol: LA.


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

Tom 958 said:


> When I've ridden it to/from the airport, most of the passengers were employees. I suppose dependability and accessibility are issues.
> ...


I think this is the reality for most transit lines that serve airports. If you have more than an overnight bag, a taxi cab becomes an attractive option. The cost savings of using public transit just isn't worth the hassle of maneuvering suitcases on and off crowded trains and buses.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

nature's message said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/midnightcheese/88805668/in/set-72057594051063126/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^^ What event must've finished or venue emptied out, coz none of these folks appears to be commuting? :?







diablo234 said:


>


What fraction of any old day's service is rewarded with full-length trains? :?






diablo234 said:


>


Superb photo  Space doesn't seem to be an issue there, yet...


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

trainrover said:


> ^^ What event must've finished or venue emptied out, coz none of these folks appears to be commuting? :?


I did not take those photos so I would not know but Five Points is relatively close to Turner Field (where the Atlanta Braves play). Since it is also a major transfer point many people use the station to get to the Georgia Dome, Georgia World Congress Center, and Phillips Arena as well.


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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

Wanna bet passengers changing trains weren't whom was being photographed  although I agree that the majority of them must've just exited some sport event.


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## mrmocha413 (Apr 18, 2009)

IMO this is very exciting for the city of Atlanta, they're starting to embrace expansion of their public transportation system!


Here comes the Atlanta streetcar: MARTA sets bus detours

ShareThis PrintE-mail
By David Ibata 
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

MARTA has announced changes to seven bus routes, effective Saturday, in downtown Atlanta to make way for construction of the $72 million streetcar line from Centennial Olympic Park to the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site.

The changes affect Route Nos. 1 – Centennial Olympic Park/Coronet Way; 3 – Martin Luther King Jr. Drive/Auburn Avenue; 16 – Noble; 99 – Boulevard/Monroe Drive; 110 Peachtree Street “The Peach”; 155 Windsor Street/Lakewood Avenue; and 186 – Rainbow Drive/South DeKalb.

The changes will remain in effect until further notice. Details of the reroutes are posted on this MARTA website.

Atlanta received $47 million in federal funds in July for the streetcar project. The Atlanta Downtown Improvement District will pick up the $25 million cost not covered by the federal government.

When the system begins operations, scheduled for 2013, four streetcars will circulate on the 12-station, 2.7-mile route, with a transfer point to MARTA at the Peachtree Center rail station.

Atlanta city officials hope the line will rejuvenate downtown and the Auburn and Edgewood Avenue corridors, and perhaps pave the way for a system that eventually would operate along the length of Peachtree Street and link to a light rail or streetcar system operating along the planned Beltline.

-- Staff writer Bill Steiden contributed to this article.

http://georgiatransitconnector.com/

http://georgiatransitconnector.com/about/route/


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

*The Transport politic*



> In Atlanta and Seattle, Hope for Better Transit Through Referendums
> 
> *Recognizing the limitations of federal aid, local leaders in Atlanta and Seattle propose tax increases or additional fees to improve the quality of their transit networks.*
> 
> ...


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)




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## trainrover (May 6, 2006)

I don't understand revivals at running trams down streets :dunno:


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

*Saporta Report*



> Atlanta Streetcar aims to meet federal completion deadline of May 2013 with help from city
> 
> Date: November 13th, 2011
> By David Pendered
> ...


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

A line consisting of just 6 stops per direction seems ridiculouse. Waste of money. Who's gonna ride it? It should conect suburbs with city center not just serve few blocks!


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

I don't think the length is a problem if the frequency is very high and at least one stop connects directly to a big public transportation hub but I think the one directional track is.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

Slartibartfas said:


> I don't think the length is a problem if the frequency is very high and at least one stop connects directly to a big public transportation hub but I think the one directional track is.


West of Peachtree, the line runs mostly on one-way streets in the contraflow direction. :banana:

The regional sales tax that'll be on the ballot next year includes funding for extending the streetcar eastward along Irwin Street, then northward along the Beltline to the southeast corner or Piedmont Park, plus westward to North Avenue near the Coca Cola building. There'd also be a corridor running the Beltline starting at Cascade Road, north to Bankhead Station, then east along Hollowell Parkway, Northside Drive, North Avenue and Ponce (the same route as US 78!) to the Beltline at the old Sears building. The map I've seen shows the two streetcar lines neatly teeing into each other there, but, gee, I dunno. 

It still won't "conect suburbs with city center," but at least it'd kind of go somewhere useful to Atlanta residents.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)




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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Considering that there is already an existing thread for Public Transit in Atlanta I find this particular thread to be redundant.

*Atlanta | Public Transit*

Maybe the two threads should be merged?


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## ParadiseLost (Feb 1, 2011)

It's a very impressive system for what amounts to be the least urban major 'city' in the world. However with cost per mile being such a major issue in Atlanta and many major US cities, why don't they invest instead in a (electrified) rapid bus system which connects to the current system? It seems to be quite economical and a big success in Bogota for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransMilenio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

Would seem like a great option for Los Angeles and maybe Houston and Dallas as well.


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## Gag Halfrunt (Jun 25, 2006)

^^ Los Angeles already has two bus rapid transit lines.

If you're going to invest in an electric power system to run trolleybuses on your BRT lines, you might as well go all the way and build light rail instead. BRT is what you build if you can't afford the track, the trains, the overhead catenary, etc.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

ParadiseLost said:


> It's a very impressive system for what amounts to be the least urban major 'city' in the world. However with cost per mile being such a major issue in Atlanta and many major US cities, why don't they invest instead in a (electrified) rapid bus system which connects to the current system? It seems to be quite economical and a big success in Bogota for example:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransMilenio
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
> 
> Would seem like a great option for Los Angeles and maybe Houston and Dallas as well.


Interesting point, but Houston and Dallas may not be the best US examples. Houston is rapidly expanding its light rail network and Dallas has the largest light rail system in the USA plus commuter rail and street car. Maybe better examples for the USA would be my home town of Tampa, Austin, or Raleigh, NC.

Steve


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## ParadiseLost (Feb 1, 2011)

Gag Halfrunt said:


> ^^ Los Angeles already has two bus rapid transit lines.
> 
> If you're going to invest in an electric power system to run trolleybuses on your BRT lines, you might as well go all the way and build light rail instead. BRT is what you build if you can't afford the track, the trains, the overhead catenary, etc.


It's still going to be more expensive with the tracks and trains I would guess. Also BRT would be more flexible as you CAN run cars on those lanes if you want to at a later point (or maybe run taxis and carpools on them or allow other kind of limited access).

I did read up on the two LA lines after I posted this btw. Would be interested to know in how they are doing. I don't really have any experience with BRT. I didn't use it much in Curitiba when I was there and I don't think I've seen it anywhere else I've been. But I saw a docu recently that mentioned Bogota as a successful example, was pretty interesting.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

ParadiseLost said:


> .. .why don't they invest instead in a (electrified) rapid bus system which connects to the current system?


Because Atlanta doesn't have wide arterials all over the place like Bogota and Curitiba. That's also why so much of the rail system was built in freight rail corridors


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## ParadiseLost (Feb 1, 2011)

Tom 958 said:


> Because Atlanta doesn't have wide arterials all over the place like Bogota and Curitiba. That's also why so much of the rail system was built in freight rail corridors


Interesting, I haven't been to Bogota but google maps seems to agree with you.
Curitiba, not so much. It seems like Atlanta is much more gifted when it comes to quantity of big arterial roads compared to Curitiba. I can't say my personal experience with the two cities conflicts that. But then again my experience with Atlanta especially is very limited.


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## tampasteve (Aug 8, 2007)

Some Brazilian cities have either done or talked of eliminating a auto travel lane for mass transit. That makes building BRT or LR easier as you do not have to buy any new ROW.

Try that in the USA. While I would be OK with it (since I am heavily pro-transit), most people would not be, especially when you have the local populous voting for or against a transit funding proposal.

Steve


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

It's just a local populace.


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## ParadiseLost (Feb 1, 2011)

tampasteve said:


> Some Brazilian cities have either done or talked of eliminating a auto travel lane for mass transit. That makes building BRT or LR easier as you do not have to buy any new ROW.
> 
> Try that in the USA. While I would be OK with it (since I am heavily pro-transit), most people would not be, especially when you have the local populous voting for or against a transit funding proposal.
> 
> Steve


Well that's probably the best way to do it. Since any successful transit system would have to transport more people on that lane in rush hour than it would otherwise carry. And supposedly also remove more traffic from the road than the lane would carry, which I also think should be a threshold criteria for such a system methinks. That's a pretty potent argument to sell such a system politically (though I know political arguments in the US are not usually about the actual real world).


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Except that public transportation renders you, the user, a slave of Union-ridden, corrupt MARTA with its bus and train drivers who think they are heroes of their communities as if they were firefighters or paramedics and then receive oversized payments and lavish benefits.

So it greatly reduces the personal freedom of movement you have with a car, and leave you at the bequest of transit planner who "know better than you" where you should live or work, and plan transit systems to restrict or push you to live in certain areas if you dare to work somewhere else by limiting non-radial services within Atlanta MSA.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Suburbanist said:


> a slave of Union-ridden, corrupt MARTA


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## ParadiseLost (Feb 1, 2011)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Except that public transportation renders you, the user, a slave of Union-ridden, corrupt MARTA with its bus and train drivers who think they are heroes of their communities as if they were firefighters or paramedics and then receive oversized payments and lavish benefits.
> 
> So it greatly reduces the personal freedom of movement you have with a car, and leave you at the bequest of transit planner who "know better than you" where you should live or work, and plan transit systems to restrict or push you to live in certain areas if you dare to work somewhere else by limiting non-radial services within Atlanta MSA.


I like you sub, your opinions are generally so ridiculous that it is quite amusing to read. Once in a full moon you also actually have something interesting to say! Not this time though, but don't fret it was fun to read. 

It's true though, what's happening in Atlanta is horrid. Soviet union Marta Gestapo forcing freedom loving patriotic drivers at gun point to take the subway, probably to places they don't even want to go like concentration camps and the like. Just terrible!


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## Rail_Serbia (May 29, 2009)

I watched on Google Earth the railroad network around Atlanta, and find out that, for those very sprawl suburbs, the best solution may be commuter rail with park & rides, bike & rides, and (somewhere) circular bus lines like feeder lines, with schedule oriented to commuter rail. There are railways in the middle of downtown, and the best location for commuter rail hub is Atlanta Philips Arena, Georgia World Congres Center, W1 station on east-west metro line. 

I can`t understand why they plan light rail for so long distance, like from Acworth, and why they plan short new lines, when there is railway corridor in the heart of downtown. City which have railway (not in-city railway) in the center of the center is a rich city. London, Bratislava and some other cities around the world, build very expensive central corridors, when Atlanta has it, don`t use it for passenger transport, and plan shortened commuter rail lines:nuts::nuts::nuts:

I found that Atlanta urban area could have 9 legs of commuter railways:

*Temple* - Villa Rica - Winston - Douglasville - Lithia Springs - Austell - Mableton - Highlands - Riverview - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *
*Douglas* - Hiram - Powder Springs - Austell - Mableton - Highlands - Riverview - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *
*Acworth* - Kennesaw - Marietta - Fair Oaks - Smyrna - Stone Wall - Vinings - Olde Ivy - Underwood Hills - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *
*Buford* - Sugar Hill - Suwanee - Duluth - Railway Museum - Norcross - Doraville - Between N5&N6 - Atlantic Station - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *
*Dacula* - Lawrenceville - Gwinnett - Liburn - Tucker - North Druid Hills - Emory - Between N5&N6 - Atlantic Station - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *
*Acworth* - Kennesaw - Marietta - Fair Oaks - Smyrna - Stone Wall - Vinings - Olde Ivy - Underwood Hills - *Atlantic Station* - Between N5&N6 - Emory - North Decatur - Decatur - Scottdale - Clarkstone - Stone Mountain - Redan - Lithonia - Conyers - Shiloh - *Covington*.
*Griffin* - Experiment - Sunny Side - Hampton - Lovejoy - Bonanza - Jonesboro - Morrow - Lake City - Forest Park - Hapeville - East Point - West End Station - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *
*Senoia* - Peachtree City - Tyrone - Union City - East Point - West End Station - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *
*Newnan* - Palmetto - Fairburn - Union City - East Point - West End Station - *Atlanta Philips Arena. *

At the beginning there could be lessen number of stations, not all lines, and few (2-6) round trips on work day in rush hours. Under consideration could be a station between Atlantic Philips Arena and Atlantic Station, where streetcar loop line cross the regional rail tracks. Subway station between N5&N6 is important for transfer. The most of railways are single track. For all day 1-2 trains/hour/direction frequency, some legs need doubletracking, some legs only intermediate 2 tracks stations. Travel times from suburban end stations to downtown Atlanta need to be 40-60 minutes. Investing in downtown station need to be serious, and central north-south tracks between East Pint and north railway junction.


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## Professor L Gee (Aug 10, 2009)

Atlanta Union Station used to be in (or at least very near) the spot you named, with Terminal Station not far away. Both are gone now.

This is the best proposal map I've seen for Atlanta commuter rail. Many of the routes you've suggested line up with what's here.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

Professor L Gee said:


> Atlanta Union Station used to be in (or at least very near) the spot you named, with Terminal Station not far away. Both are gone now.
> 
> This is the best proposal map I've seen for Atlanta commuter rail. Many of the routes you've suggested line up with what's here.


In 1995, Georgia DOT released a study for a regional commuter rail system. Twelve lines were studied: the ones to Athens, Senoia and Bremen were recommended as Phase One, the ones to Gainesville, Canton and Madison ( I think that one went further, to Greensboro), Phase Two. Six more, to Cedartown, Rome, Cartersville, Newnan, Jackson, and Barnesville (or was it Forsyth?) were found not to be viable. Actually, the analysis found that the Gainesville line would outperform the Senoia and Bremen lines, but the others were selected for Phase One because they were much cheaper and because it wouldn't do politically for both lines serving Gwinnett County to be in Phase One. Also, according to my (admittedly dubious) analysis of the study results, the Barnesville (now Macon) corridor would've been viable for Phase Two had it ended at Griffin-- ridership beyond there was really low.

All of the lines would've served a new Union Station located across Forsyth Street from MARTA's Five Points station and connected to it by a direct passage under Forsyth Street. This, not W1, was and is the ideal place for such a station, with no transfer required to access the entire MARTA rail system and quite a few bus routes as well. 

The service plan was for three trains inbound in the morning, three outbound in the evening, and (IIRC) two midday round trips and one in the evening. Except: the Athens line would've had four trains at peak hours and a fifth between Reagan Parkway and Union Station. In agreement with Rail_Serbia's proposal, the plan was to add passing sidings as needed (or, sometimes, link two existing sidings into one really long one) rather than systematically double tracking. 

The big difference between the current proposal and the 1995 proposal was... the 1995 plan considered and rejected using the segment of rail through Atlantic Station. That segment is circuitous and dumps trains right into the busiest part of Atlanta' freight rail network. Instead, the Athens line would've used this short link to bypass Emory and join the same corridor that the Madison lines used. The Gainesville line would've used the Beltline corridor to access that same corridor closer to the city center. Thus, four of the six lines would've avoided the congested northwestern area. Under the current scheme, four of seven lines dump right into it.


The Athens Line actually made it into the TIP in the late '90's, for initial service in 2003, but was never built. And now the Beltline corridor has been appropriated as a park/trail system and, in the dreams of many, a future transit corridor. No way commuter rail will ever go there.

EDIT: The GDOT map seems to call for the Gainesville and Emory/Athens lines to converge to a single corridor so they can both serve Atlantic Station. In fact, the difference in elevation between the two lines where they cross is great, and building a connection between them is at the very limits of feasibility.

I've long had a fantasy about a second east-west rail corridor connecting Cobb County (Marietta, etc.) to Emory and central Gwinnett in something resembling Rail_Serbia's scheme. Now, though, my thinking is more along the lines of extending the proposed Emory light rail line (which I predict will never be built) directly by deep tunnel from N6 Lindbergh station to the Cumberland area, with a station in the very heart of Buckhead, near Peachtree and Roswell Roads. I can dream, can't I?

Oh: Good work, Rail_Serbia! Thinking things out is fun.


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## bat_naso (May 8, 2012)

very fancy planning and fantasizing Tom. However, I lived in the ole ATL for more than 5 years and became intimately familiar with infrastructure network in the city. 

First of all, you have to account for the racial/income makeup of the metro area, which most people don't say out loud - has a huge impact on transportation planning. The northern counties don't want anything to do with MARTA for reasons of lower classes of people appearing in their wealthy suburbs, preferring instead to drive their SUVs on clogged highways such as the 400, 75 and 85. 

Also, the car culture of the american suburbanite doesn't fit with the european notion of public transport. This also has to do with point 1 above - if you ever take the train to anywhere south of Midtown you will experience why. The panhandlers, homeless, the dilapidated downtown area are something most people try to avoid. If you go to the airport by marta, you will also be looking over your shoulder at all times, in particular after dark. If you're a single women traveling after dark on the system, please DON'T!

Anyways, Atlanta has its nice point, however, as a whole, am I glad to be out of that place!


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

bat_naso said:


> very fancy planning and fantasizing Tom. However, I lived in the ole ATL for more than 5 years and became intimately familiar with infrastructure network in the city.
> 
> First of all, you have to account for the racial/income makeup of the metro area, which most people don't say out loud - has a huge impact on transportation planning. The northern counties don't want anything to do with MARTA for reasons of lower classes of people appearing in their wealthy suburbs, preferring instead to drive their SUVs on clogged highways such as the 400, 75 and 85.
> 
> ...


Delapidated downtown? I thought you said that you were familiar with Atlanta...downtown is far from delapidated. Georgia State? Centennial Park/CNN/Philips Arena? Castleberry Hill? The Hotel District? Fairlie-Poplar? I'm not sure what you're considering delapidated, but 90% of downtown certainly isn't. Maybe you had to be here a little longer to find out.

I think the problem with suburban folks vs. urban folks is more economics than it is racial. There is a criminal element present in lower-income areas that the average person does not want to be exposed to, and rightly so...and unfortunately a large portion of those areas are south of downtown (not south of Midtown), but that doesn't mean that _everything_ south of downtown is poverty stricken. There are some beautiful neighborhoods there that you obviously aren't aware of that are not low-income.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

bat_naso said:


> Anyways, Atlanta has its nice point, however, as a whole, am I glad to be out of that place!


So, what Eden did you move to? :lol: NVM, I don't care.

Atlanta is a mess, it's true. But we've invested too much to just give up now.



WeimieLvr said:


> Delapidated downtown? I thought you said that you were familiar with Atlanta...downtown is far from delapidated. Georgia State? Centennial Park/CNN/Philips Arena? Castleberry Hill? The Hotel District? Fairlie-Poplar? I'm not sure what you're considering delapidated, but 90% of downtown certainly isn't. Maybe you had to be here a little longer to find out.


Indeed. And had the commuter rail system been built, it likely would made things better, by making the southern end of the core much more accessible by people who (gasp) actually _like_ cities. 



bat_naso said:


> Also, the car culture of the american suburbanite doesn't fit with the european notion of public transport.


Oh, wow, that's news! :lol: Fortunately, not everyone in Atlanta is a suburbiaphile. It isn't necessary for everyone in the metro area to want a viable urban environment-- we just need enough. And, IMO, we already have enough. What we need is a way of doing things that makes the most of our assets. That's where Atlanta falls down.


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## joezierer (Jan 16, 2011)

I seem to remember stories from when I lived in Atlanta that most of the cars in the northern marta stations' parking lots were from the suburbs.


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## particlez (May 5, 2008)

WeimieLvr said:


> Delapidated downtown?
> 
> I think the problem with suburban folks vs. urban folks is more economics than it is racial.



ding ding ding

I occasionally lurk on SSP, and the yokels there are even worse than the trolls here. Atlanta is an easy scapegoat, yet its messed up urban planning is no different than the current messed up urban planning everywhere else in places where the developers are in control. 

There's a lot of unspoken yet strongly held classism/racism motivating peoples' real estate decisions. Go back to the bad old days of blockbusting/redlining, and it was more overt. Then it changed over to suburbanization/car dependency in an attempt to outrun the poor/dark people. Now it's come full circle and the centrally located areas are being gentrified. In EVERY case, the real estate industry has played upon and exploited the public's prejudices for its own profit. 

I actually like DT Atlanta. I've never had a problem there. At the same time, I wouldn't go to the sketchy areas alone at night.


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

joezierer said:


> I seem to remember stories from when I lived in Atlanta that most of the cars in the northern marta stations' parking lots were from the suburbs.




I'm sure that's true since the northern MARTA stations are IN the suburbs...


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

particlez said:


> .
> 
> I actually like DT Atlanta. I've never had a problem there. At the same time, I wouldn't go to the sketchy areas alone at night.


I love downtown Atlanta. Most of the heavy criticism it gets is from people who don't go there and they are going on something they heard. People who aren't afraid of urban areas tend to like it as well. 

I would use the same caution in any city and avoid the less desirable areas, day or night...but most of downtown Atlanta is relatively safe.


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## bat_naso (May 8, 2012)

particlez said:


> ding ding ding
> 
> I occasionally lurk on SSP, and the yokels there are even worse than the trolls here. Atlanta is an easy scapegoat, yet its messed up urban planning is no different than the current messed up urban planning everywhere else in places where the developers are in control.
> 
> ...





WeimieLvr said:


> Delapidated downtown? I thought you said that you were familiar with Atlanta...downtown is far from delapidated. Georgia State? Centennial Park/CNN/Philips Arena? Castleberry Hill? The Hotel District? Fairlie-Poplar? I'm not sure what you're considering delapidated, but 90% of downtown certainly isn't. Maybe you had to be here a little longer to find out.
> 
> I think the problem with suburban folks vs. urban folks is more economics than it is racial. There is a criminal element present in lower-income areas that the average person does not want to be exposed to, and rightly so...and unfortunately a large portion of those areas are south of downtown (not south of Midtown), but that doesn't mean that _everything_ south of downtown is poverty stricken. There are some beautiful neighborhoods there that you obviously aren't aware of that are not low-income.


Sure there are good neighborhoods. I am referring to stops along the MARTA line. Have you ridden it through the Civic Center, Five Points, and South to the airport?? I don't mean to dismiss the whole city as a giant shit-hole, but believe me, I went to Georgia State for years, and know the area around the campus and all the above venues that you're giving as examples. On a weekly basis there was an email from campus police to warn students of the most recent car brake-ins, rapes, and robberies close to and around campus... 

Quick question - what is the trend of office occupancy downtown and south? What is the rate of occupied vs. abandoned/empty commercial and residential space? Nevertheless, I think that to love that place, you must have been born and raised there and to not have traveled much in order to compare....


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## bat_naso (May 8, 2012)

Tom 958 said:


> So, what Eden did you move to? :lol: NVM, I don't care.
> 
> - whether you care or not, I wish you pleasent hours stuck in traffic on the 400 or any of the other Big 3. How's that commute going for you? I currently walk to my office.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of your comments, don't see why you take offense. We all have a right to an opinion. As I said before, it is very hard for someone used to european style cities to live in a place like the ATL, which could fit you very well indeed.


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## urbansouth (Mar 2, 2012)

I must say that I was in Atlanta recently and, though it's always been known for having a lot of sprawl, I noticed a massive effort to really make great urban areas. The vast majority of the new/recent construction (and there was a lot) had really solid urban design to make the area more pedestrian- and transit-friendly. I could go on, but I'll just say that the planning in Atlanta has been really good in the past few years. 
Of course, areas like Buckhead will always be impossible to "correct" and become 100% urban, but Buckhead still feels nice and sort of warrants being preserved like that.
The surrounding cities (even out to, say, Newnan) still can't get it right, though, and you see tons of land being cleared for massive parking lots. Just textbook kind of sprawl stuff that you'd figured everyone had stopped doing at this point, but I guess its their bubble to burst.


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## joezierer (Jan 16, 2011)

WeimieLvr said:


> I'm sure that's true since the northern MARTA stations are IN the suburbs...


Oh. lol


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

urbansouth said:


> I must say that I was in Atlanta recently and, though it's always been known for having a lot of sprawl, I noticed a massive effort to really make great urban areas. The vast majority of the new/recent construction (and there was a lot) had really solid urban design to make the area more pedestrian- and transit-friendly. I could go on, but I'll just say that the planning in Atlanta has been really good in the past few years.
> Of course, areas like Buckhead will always be impossible to "correct" and become 100% urban, but Buckhead still feels nice and sort of warrants being preserved like that.
> The surrounding cities (even out to, say, Newnan) still can't get it right, though, and you see tons of land being cleared for massive parking lots. Just textbook kind of sprawl stuff that you'd figured everyone had stopped doing at this point, but I guess its their bubble to burst.


Actually the surrounding suburban towns (for the most part) have a walkable core that is urban - especially Decatur and a couple of others that have MARTA stations. The sprawl is mostly in unincorporated areas with those towns' addresses, and even among the sprawl there are plenty of examples of good urban development mixed in with the ever-present sprawl. It's like that in almost any city...


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

bat_naso said:


> Sure there are good neighborhoods. I am referring to stops along the MARTA line. Have you ridden it through the Civic Center, Five Points, and South to the airport?? I don't mean to dismiss the whole city as a giant shit-hole, but believe me, I went to Georgia State for years, and know the area around the campus and all the above venues that you're giving as examples. On a weekly basis there was an email from campus police to warn students of the most recent car brake-ins, rapes, and robberies close to and around campus...
> 
> Quick question - what is the trend of office occupancy downtown and south? What is the rate of occupied vs. abandoned/empty commercial and residential space? Nevertheless, I think that to love that place, you must have been born and raised there and to not have traveled much in order to compare....


Wow, that is an insulting assumption you made about me and totally incorrect. I moved to Atlanta in 1989 and have also lived in London and Miami for periods of more than a year. I have traveled a great deal, not that I need to justify my background to someone who doesn't know nearly as much about my adopted city as I do. 

I also graduated from GA State and see the area completely differently than you do, but urban areas do not scare me at all - neither do black people or the homeless.  It's sad, but rapes/break-ins/robberies are a fact of life around college campuses...yet I never once felt unsafe at GSU. Different experiences I guess, but it's irritating for people to go around spouting their experiences as if they are the way things are, ya know? You may have a worldly perspective on things, but it's highly offensive that you assume the rest of us don't have it. Maybe we just aren't quite as condescending, I don't know...

It would be nice if we could go back to discussing urban transport rather than having to defend the city we love from outside negative opinions and off-the-wall comments. It seems like Atlanta gets more on-line hate from more people than any other city in the U.S. for some reason.


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## particlez (May 5, 2008)

bat_naso said:


> Sure there are good neighborhoods. I am referring to stops along the MARTA line. Have you ridden it through the Civic Center, Five Points, and South to the airport?? I don't mean to dismiss the whole city as a giant shit-hole, but believe me, I went to Georgia State for years, and know the area around the campus and all the above venues that you're giving as examples. On a weekly basis there was an email from campus police to warn students of the most recent car brake-ins, rapes, and robberies close to and around campus...


I never realized I'd end up defending Atlanta on an urban planning forum. Yet the accusations you have made are hypocritical, and reflective of what the sprawl industry WANTS you to think.

Crime occurs everywhere. It's especially bad in the economically depressed areas. A nexus of these areas exists in the more downtrodden areas of Atlanta. Yet downtrodden areas are hardly limited to Atlanta, nor are they limited to certain minorities, despite the prevailing wisdom from any number of co-opted media outlets. You'll see crime in lily-white yet economically downtrodden steel and mill towns. And now it's becoming difficult for many mainstream suburban folks to cover their costs, and you're seeing the stress manifested in all sorts of antisocial ways.

Atlanta (and many other American cities) turned into sprawling, car-centric messes partly BECAUSE the real estate industry shrewdly and effectively exploited and capitalized on white American racial paranoia. Rumors abounded about roaming gangs of amoral ghetto folk preparing to infiltrate and defile what were previously morally upstanding middle class white neighborhoods. The original owners sold on the cheap, the realtors/realty companies resold at inflated prices to black folks, the property tax base was diluted, mass transit was seen as gateway to perdition, etc. Now you have all sorts of people wasting their time and money on a car, its expenses, the costs of roads, the higher operating costs of low density sprawl, etc. The developers however, are happy that former greenfields up in Forsythe county have turned into glorified tract housing.

*Edit, I should add that I'm not assessing blame on whiteness. However, the unscrupulous (and that's putting it mildly) real estate industry manipulated and deliberately stoked latent racism/classism for its own selfish interest. Blockbusting and Redlining were ultimately profitable for the developer, not for residents of any race. The fleeing whites sold on the cheap. Their black replacements paid inflated prices for limited supply/more difficult credit.

See how your attitude plays into the hand of the sprawl-loving developers? If you're going to disparage those you deem to be below you (and I can guarantee that the vast majority of the poor folks in South Atlanta are decent), isn't it easier for you to embrace some hostile, detached existence?


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

^^Excellent post!


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## starrwulfe (Nov 27, 2010)

^^GSU '99 grad here, and long time off/on resident of Dekalb and Fulton counties along with te City of ATL -- And I approve this message all the way from JAPAN!!

Atlanta could get it right on so many levels, but it's this same line of thinking that keeps MARTA from going into Cobb, Gwinnett, Douglass, and even Clayton counties. It's this whole NIMBY "Oh damn, black/poor folks will be taking the train out here to (insert suburb here) to steal/murder/and commit miscellaneous crimes!!" OH NOES!!

When I lived in 30305 (that's Little 5 Points) back when I was a GSU student, I took the train to Inman Park - Reynoldstown and walked 3/4 mile home at 12am... never was so much looked at by a soul. When I lived in Roswell and Sandy Springs, 3 apartments were broken into next to mine, my car was broken into twice, and I was hasseled numerous times for spare change or whatever at gas stations... Not to mention the POLICE pulling me over several times for stupid stuff like "when you made that left turn up there, I heard your wheels squeal-- Maybe you're going to fast for conditions, young man"... Sigh. 

Needless to say, I have absolutely 0 of these issues in Yokohama here, but Atlanta could be halfway like it is here if they'd just embrace rapid transit...and learn how to FORGET close to 400 years of trained classism and racism. But this is not Sociology City, this is Skyscraper City


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

An essay of personal experiences does not convey the general atmosphere of any city, period. I'm pretty sure you could find someone who had bad experiences in Yokohama, but that doesn't lead to Yokohama being a bad place.

You were right on one count...this is not the place for such an inane comment. It's just more genreral junk to add to the weird hatred (jealosy?) for Atlanta by a few vocal people on these sites. It's truly insane.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

So... it just seems GSU is not in among the best neighborhoods in Atlanta. At the same time, it's not among the best colleges in Atlanta. Maybe these issues don't exist around GA Tech or Emory campuses.


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

Woonsocket54 said:


> So... it just seems GSU is not in among the best neighborhoods in Atlanta. At the same time, it's not among the best colleges in Atlanta. Maybe these issues don't exist around GA Tech or Emory campuses.


GSU is downtown, so it's not among "the best" neighborhoods but it's not a bad one either. I'm not sure what the issue is that some people have with it other than it's totally urban in the heart of downtown. There is more of an issue with crime around Tech than GSU, or at least that perception exists. There is actually very little crime in downtown Atlanta, but again, the perception of crime exists and some people won't see anything different. It's pretty much like that in most cities.

GSU is now the largest university in Georgia, with more than 30,000 students.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Source: http://www.newurbanroswell.com/blog/2012/5/3/atlantas-new-rail-map.html


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## WeimieLvr (May 26, 2008)

^^I have my fingers crossed...


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## joezierer (Jan 16, 2011)

trainrover said:


> Do outer Atlantans now have yankee accents?


About 80% of Atlanta is suburbs. 90% of those suburbs are transplants from other places, typically yankees.


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## starrwulfe (Nov 27, 2010)

It was doomed from the start. I happen to be spending the summer back in Atlanta before work starts up in Tokyo again, and I for one have been utterly frustrated. After spending so much time in Japan, I've gotten so used to just jumping on the train and to any far-flung place without having to worry about gas, parking, insurance, etc. But once again the OTP folks can't agree with the ITP folks on how to get things done, and it'll be another 20 years before we see a proposal that's even worthy enough for the Georgia legislature to place on a ballot. 

Some say it's because it was a part of a statewide initiative and who'd get what wasn't clear enough. I say that's hogwash, and I'm sure that there would've been some sort of appropriations system set up had the referendum passed.

Some say ATL metro would've gotten the lion's share of the monies raised. I say, "Of COURSE!" ATL Metro is home to the majority of the taxpayers and greatest network of roads, rail, air, etc. So of course we'd get most of it... That's just common sense! WTH?!

Then others made a valid point about who'd be in charge of the money raised. In the case of the MARTA becoming a regional transit authority (and expanding out of just Fulton and DeKalb counties), there'd have to be a separate vote on that. Instead, I believe GRTA should take over MARTA, GCT, CCT and some of GDOT's duties. In other words, become a real INTEGRATED transit planning planning AND operating body. This is what made Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority (L.A. Metro) so successful. It grew out of RTD and merged some of CalTrans' operations within LA county. Portland Oregon's METRO planning body is another example. 

Every major city in the world has a transit planning body that supersedes anything at the very local level, because transit planning is a very regional thing. All these county trasportation commissions, city and county DOTs along with GDOT, MARTA, CCT, GCT, and more-- they're all competing for the same tax dollars that really need to be pooled together and spent on plans that don't compete but rather COMPLEMENT each other.

Until Georgians get that concept right, they're doomed to spend hours stuck on the Downtown Connector sucking fumes.


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## joezierer (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm from Atlanta originally so I can tell you what the problem is:

It has nothing to do with "not understanding" or "who gets what money" it boils straight down to OTP doesn't want blacks and mexicans being able to to get into their neighborhoods.

It's the reason Metro Atlanta is like 11 counties and MARTA is 2.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

joezierer said:


> It has nothing to do with "not understanding" or "who gets what money" it boils straight down to OTP doesn't want blacks and mexicans being able to to get into their neighborhoods.


If that is indeed the case then they failed big time especially considering the fact that Gwinnett County and Cobb County in addition to Clayton County are now either "majority minority" or close, with huge hispanic and black populations (many of whom have also have cars). :doh:


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## BlindFatSnake (Jul 27, 2012)

diablo234 said:


> If that is indeed the case then they failed big time especially considering the fact that Gwinnett County and Cobb County in addition to Clayton County are now either "majority minority" or close, with huge hispanic and black populations (many of whom have also have cars). :doh:


Current problem: Gwinnett and Cobb county's (mostly white) elected officials DO NOT reflect the change in the racial makeup of those counties. You'd be hard pressed to find or name any Latino or African-Americans serving as elected officials in those counties. We can only assume why...

IMHO, the transportation tax failed because the "movers and shakers" didn't stay on message (Transit/Transportation fix vs job creation), and they failed to produce a regional map showing the voting public what* the end result would look like. *

The roadwork map looked like it had been stabbed in a thousand places and little red bandages were plastered all over the road network to illustrate were the hemorraging (road work) would be patched up. *It was not a map to show improvement and expansion.*

And, the modes of transportation were confusing (mistrusting) when a rail line could be 1 of 3 things: light rail, bus rapid transit, or preminum buses (but the cost for implementation remained the same price. Really?).


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

*New Atlanta streetcar:*









http://clatl.com/freshloaf/archives...looking-all-shiny-and-sexy-on-a-flatbed-truck (from Cirrus at SSP)



> Say hello. A spokesman for Mayor Kasim Reed confirms that the above photo, which was posted on the Atlanta subreddit this morning with the tease "Atlanta...say hello to your new streetcar! (sneak peek)," depicts the vehicle that will coast between the King Center and Centennial Olympic Park starting in late 2013. He says the photo was taken at the Siemens facility in Sacramento where the vehicle was assembled. The propulsion systems, once built in Siemens' Cumming Alpharetta location, will be shipped to California to be installed. "Blue is the base color of what the car will look like," the spokesman says. Exterior decals will be added closer to completion.
> 
> NOTE: This post has been updated to include new information, including confirmation of the photo's authenticity.
> 
> http://clatl.com/freshloaf/archives...looking-all-shiny-and-sexy-on-a-flatbed-truck


Route map:









http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-bl...r-money-breaks-atlanta-transit-losing-streak/


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## Blackraven (Jan 19, 2006)

How's MARTA rail doing these days? 

Btw, what are the operating hours for:
-The Plane Train @ ATL Atlanta International Airport
and
-ATL Skytrain

???

Thanks =)


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

desertpunk said:


> *New Atlanta streetcar:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never understood why American trams are so often 'downtown loop' type systems, rather than lines that actually go somewhere. Why have lines running parallel blocks? If you stretched that line out and ran it down one road it could go much further and service a lot more areas.


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

They think its a toy only, not a real transportation thing. And you are right. This loop here is silly in my opinion.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Falubaz said:


> They think its a toy only, not a real transportation thing. And you are right. This loop here is silly in my opinion.


Well officials in Atlanta are planning to later extend the streetcar line up Peachtree Street in addition to adding new light rail along the Beltline, this is only the initial segment.

This is what they are planning to build in the future.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Blackraven said:


> How's MARTA rail doing these days?
> 
> Btw, what are the operating hours for:
> -The Plane Train @ ATL Atlanta International Airport
> ...


I would guess that the Atlanta Airport Train Systems run 24/7.


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## geogregor (Dec 11, 2006)

diablo234 said:


> Well officials in Atlanta are planning to later extend the streetcar line up Peachtree Street in addition to adding new light rail along the Beltline, this is only the initial segment.
> 
> This is what they are planning to build in the future.


I don't get what is the point of practically duplicating MARTA red line with the streetcar. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to build it somewhere else and bring more people closer to the public transport options?


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## city_thing (May 25, 2006)

^^ Maybe they're trying to add capacity going northwards?

I imagine that sending it a bit further south towards the stadium would be useful. Surely that area needs some decent PT for games? 

Seems that we can all do a better job of planning this street car than Atlanta's transport authority :lol:


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## shivtim (May 6, 2004)

city_thing said:


> I've never understood why American trams are so often 'downtown loop' type systems, rather than lines that actually go somewhere. Why have lines running parallel blocks? If you stretched that line out and ran it down one road it could go much further and service a lot more areas.


The route is one-way. So if you put it on one road, you would just have both one-way lines on that road, and it wouldn't stretch any farther.

The map from Transport Politic is outdated. The Peachtree (North-South) streetcar did not get TIGER I money. The downtown streetcar (west one-way on Auburn and east one-way on Edgewood) did get TIGER II funding.

The plan now is to connect the under-construction street-car to the Beltline by expanding it to the east along Edgewood, and eventually to the west as well. In the map below the orange is the existing MARTA heavy-rail, the dark blue is the streetcar, and the light blue is the un-funded expansion. All of this provides service to new areas.

Also of note is that the streetcar is largely seen as a means of economic development. While it will of course have use as a means of transportation, it's only projected to have about 2,600 riders per day, compared to MARTA rail which has over 250,000 riders per day.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Rail installation between Jackson and William H Borders.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6361316.-2207520000.1364148285&type=3&theater


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*ATLANTA | Streetcar*









We're pouring the track slab on the first section of Auburn Avenue and preparing for the construction of the King Historic District Stop!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1970401317.279120.124566361316&type=3&theater


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## Immovable_Media (Jul 19, 2013)

*Atlanta Streetcar Video*

Atlanta Streetcar - Entire Loop 2.7 Miles - 7/30/2013: 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8K8Y7fWt1A

Woodruff Park to 75/85 Connector: 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWDdc4EL9Q8

King Historic District to 75/85: 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUpWT6VA94

Woodruff Park to Centennial Olympic Park: 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwW-s_WA56w




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFOmXa0u83w




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptEZOz_49_c

__________________
Atlanta's Finest Freelance Audio/Visual Production Services
http://www.immovablemedia.net
http://www.youtube.com/user/ImmovableMedia


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Queen City Discovery
http://queencitydiscovery.blogspot.com/2013/08/signs-of-streetcar-as-seen-in-atlanta.html



> Monday, August 12, 2013
> *Signs of the Streetcar as Seen in Atlanta*
> 
> 
> ...


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

Atlanta Streetcar Construction by Central Atlanta Progress, on Flickr


Atlanta Streetcar Construction by Central Atlanta Progress, on Flickr


Early morning concrete pour by Central Atlanta Progress, on Flickr


OCS pole foundation by Central Atlanta Progress, on Flickr


Atlanta Streetcar Rails by Central Atlanta Progress, on Flickr


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## desertpunk (Oct 12, 2009)

*Atlanta Takes Key Step In Expanding Streetcar System*












> Transportation officials now expect the Atlanta Streetcar's initial 2.7-mile loop to open sometime in May, as opposed to April, as was previously expected. But that's not the biggest streetcar news of the week: The city was recently named a Federal Transit Administration grant designee. That means, for the first time, Atlanta will be able to apply directly for federal funding — instead of relying on MARTA to apply on its behalf — when it comes time to expand the streetcar system, WABE reports. With T-SPLOST's bludgeoning at the polls last year, officials say federal funding is crucial for developing a more extensive streetcar network. About half of the current streetcar project's $100 million bill is being footed by the feds.
> 
> When the streetcar loop begins service, all rides will be free for the first three months. Officials have said the 2.7-mile route will have 12 stops and an estimated 15 minutes between trains. After the free-ride period, rides will cost just $1 for a while, until MARTA upgrades its Breeze Card system to accommodate the light-rail route. A project leader also noted recently that traffic lights along the route will be adjusted, in hopes of keeping the streetcar from being mired in congestion.


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Only every 15 minutes? I bet you could walk half the route length in that time.


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Some pics from the facebook page


















Last streetcar (there's only 4?) has been delivered.


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

I have a feeling about that streetcar line, It's the same feeling that Wile E. Coyote _should_ have when he's calling Acme to order another anvil.


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## nanar (Apr 12, 2005)

It's just a *toy*, not a real and adult public transit system hno:


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## CNB30 (Jun 4, 2012)

nanar said:


> It's just a *toy*, not a real and adult public transit system hno:


There are plans to expand it though. it's just a start.


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## DCUrbanist (Apr 4, 2014)

CNB30 said:


> There are plans to expand it though. it's just a start.


Exactly. I might add that the idea is that these downtown loops are eventually to become the core of a hopefully much more extensive system. I can't speak for Atlanta's in this context. Unfortunately, they're not being built with those standards in mind, with their shared lanes and lower usability. While I'm sure the idea is to acclimate the region's drivers to the presence of streetcars and to educate the public on how to negotiate them, the reality is that conservatives might point to low ridership (and well duh they have low ridership at the moment, based on where they go) as evidence to never expand them. It's a political challenge and will need strong support if expansion is ever an option.

Now the role of streetcars in today's transportation systems is an entirely different and entirely legitimate question that I don't really plan on getting into.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/2014/08/18/atlanta-streetcar-begins-dynamic-testing/
> 
> *Atlanta Streetcar begins dynamic testing*
> 18 AUG, 2014
> ...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*MARTA expansion of coverage area*

Clayton County (south suburbs of Atlanta) has voted to join MARTA. They will get local bus service and may eventually get commuter rail or BRT. It may make sense to extend the existing north-south MARTA rail line south of the airport, although it doesn’t seem that’s being planned at this time.

Atlanta Journal-Constitution
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/transportation/clayton-marta-referendum-appears-to-sail-through/nhzhb/



> *CLAYTON VOTERS EMBRACE MARTA*
> By Andria Simmons
> The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
> 
> ...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Clayton County (south suburbs of Atlanta) has voted to join MARTA. They will get local bus service and may eventually get commuter rail or BRT. It may make sense to extend the existing north-south MARTA rail line south of the airport, although it doesn’t seem that’s being planned at this time.

Atlanta Journal-Constitution
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/transportation/clayton-marta-referendum-appears-to-sail-through/nhzhb/



> *CLAYTON VOTERS EMBRACE MARTA*
> By Andria Simmons
> The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
> 
> ...


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## starrwulfe (Nov 27, 2010)

Now can we please get Gwinnett and Cobb County s to at least approve the heavy rail part of MARTA to go through? 

Sent from my One using Tapatalk


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From WJXT:



> http://www.news4jax.com/news/georgia-news/safety-concerns-delays-atlanta-streetcar/29837270
> 
> *Safety concerns delays Atlanta Streetcar*
> _By Monica Whitsel
> ...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Atlanta Business Chronicle
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/...rt-atlanta-streetcar-start-delayed-again.html



> *Report: Atlanta Streetcar start delayed – again*
> Dec 4, 2014, 5:34am EST
> UPDATED: Dec 4, 2014, 4:55pm EST
> 
> ...


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## Scizoid.Trans.Prog. (Mar 25, 2006)

Any new Metro stations and / or lines in near future?


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From The Hill:



> http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/228005-fed-supported-atlanta-streetcar-to-open-dec-30
> 
> *Fed-supported Atlanta streetcar to open Dec. 30*
> By Keith Laing - 12/23/14 05:14 PM EST
> ...


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## CNB30 (Jun 4, 2012)

dimlys1994 said:


> From The Hill:


About time one of the half dozen- or so streetcars being built around the country that should've been open by now starts running. :|


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## nr23Derek (May 13, 2009)

dimlys1994 said:


> From The Hill:
> 
> A nearly three-mile streetcar system ...


What? They have seriously built a tram that runs for less than three miles? What on earth is the point of doing that?

Derek

Edit to add - I've just looked back in the thread and see there are plans to extend it, but seriously there is no point in a 2.7 mile loop with a 15 min service interval. It is, as has been mentioned, a toy that will have terrible ridership and be held up as an example that public transport doesn't work. Honestly, what a stupid idea.


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## CNB30 (Jun 4, 2012)

It is supposed to be a start to a hopefully larger network. plus it does connect some neighborhoods in the east to the CBD. Either way, most of these new downtown streetcar systems run usually no more than maybe a few miles. While I would agree, that some seem no more fit for good ridership than the Detroit people mover (which believe it or not, a few people actually use to commute). While Portland is already a well known example, I would also look at the under way project in Cincinnati which connects a VERY dense district of Apartments that has much economic potential (over the Rhine if you're wondering the name), with a relatively walkable Central Business District. Honestly, I think we here in Richmond could seriously benefit from even 3 miles, as the system could actually easily connect a lot of major neighborhoods (that are just out of walking distance to Downtown) with Downtown.


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

nr23Derek said:


> What? They have seriously built a tram that runs for less than three miles? What on earth is the point of doing that?
> 
> Derek
> 
> Edit to add - I've just looked back in the thread and see there are plans to extend it, but seriously there is no point in a 2.7 mile loop with a 15 min service interval. It is, as has been mentioned, a toy that will have terrible ridership and be held up as an example that public transport doesn't work. Honestly, what a stupid idea.


A few factors at play here, in addition to the idea that this could someday expand:

- Atlanta has heavy rail and buses, but the former reinforces the city's relatively linear development pattern. This LR line is designed to help foster some depth/width to that density by branching outward in a run that could not be accomplished by HR. In the future you may see more similar spurs connecting neighborhoods to the HR stations, but using LR as a means of keeping neighborhoods intact.

- The east end of this line is not only along the MLK historic sites (a popular tourist attraction) but more importantly is on the other side of the Interstate overpass from downtown. Like many cities Atlanta regrettably used the interstate system (intentionally or unintentionally) to segregate business district from poor neighborhoods, meaning those neighborhoods became poorer still. This LR line is intended to soften the connection between downtown and east Atlanta, so that the cavity formed by the interstate is more readily breached.

- Atlanta still faces a variety of political pitfalls regarding mass transit, and even though rail is viewed more favorably than buses that doesn't mean there's popular support. This combined with the limitations placed on government funding meant any news transit options would be prohibitively small. The result is a minor project that could only go in places where it was feasible and welcome. The hope is this becomes a modest success that could spur continued growth in support.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

Streetcar map from urbanrail.net. Congratulations Georgia!


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## [atomic] (Oct 12, 2013)

It is really great to see more and more cities in the US develop public transport:cheers:
But now they should start to work on an extension asap! Perhap something like Georgia Tech - Five Points (marta).


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## CNB30 (Jun 4, 2012)

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/downtown/2014/12/30/streetcar-ready-for-passengers/21035545/


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

[atomic] said:


> It is really great to see more and more cities in the US develop public transport:cheers:
> But now they should start to work on an extension asap! Perhap something like Georgia Tech - Five Points (marta).


That is one of the concepts. Another would be further north connecting the arts center with Atlantic Station and eventually the quarry/new park. Depending in part on the success of this model there's the vision for several more similar routes, all being east/west circuits that would branch out from an existing MARTA station. There are bus routes doing this now but as we all now buses are stigmatized and, more importantly, subject to all forms of traffic congestion just like cars. Hopefully in about 5-12 years we'll see 1-2 more trolley routes beginning to fill in Atlanta's transit picture.


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## greg_christine (Jan 25, 2004)

It's interesting that Atlanta is using light rail vehicles (Siemens S70) for its streetcar line rather than the Skoda/United Streetcar vehicles used on other new streetcar lines in the United States. The following is a comparison between a United Streetcar vehicle and a Siemens S70 built for San Diego.

Length
United Streetcar: 66 ft
Siemens S70: 90.7 ft

Width
United Streetcar: 8 ft
Siemens S70: 8.7 ft

Weight
United Streetcar: 70,989 lbs
Siemens S70: 95,700 lbs

Turning Radius
United Streetcar: 53 ft (yard), 59 ft (service)
Siemens S70: 82 ft

Maximum Speed
United Streetcar: 44 mph
Siemens S70: 55 mph (service), 71.5 mph (allowable)


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## Tom 958 (Apr 24, 2007)

greg_christine said:


> It's interesting that Atlanta is using light rail vehicles (Siemens S70) for its streetcar line...


Maybe it has to do with what would be better suited to segregated trackways along the Beltline.

I worked on the Eastside Trail, and one day while I was at the southern end at Irwin Street, a woman struck up a conversation with me. I explained that under the not-yet-defeated sales tax plan, the streetcar would be extended out Auburn, then a short block on Irwin, then north along the Beltline to Piedmont Park.

She: "I thought the Beltline was gonna be light rail."

Me: "Yeah, but are they really gonna make people get off the streetcar here and wait for a light rail car? I don't think so." :nuts: 



Count me among the naysayers on this. I think the streetcar is a mistake that we'll regret in a dismayingly short time. Like, in three months when they start charging a fare. hno:


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

*Site visit - 2014.12.30*

I was on vacation in South Carolina for the holidays and decided to take a day trip to Atlanta to visit the streetcar on its first day and also ride around town on the Marta system. I was pleasantly surprised by Marta rail - trains are clean and comfortable and run fast and frequently, there are next-train indicators at just about every station and connections are easy at Five Points, where all lines meet, as well as to the domestic terminal at the airport station. Some sections of the rail system, especially south and east of downtown, provide breathtaking views of the city's amazing skyline. Parking is free and plentiful (at least it was at Indian Creek where I dropped off the car). The network appeared to be both well-patronized and well-policed (I witnessed an obnoxious bum being removed by police at North Avenue station). The Breeze card is the contactless smart card used for transit, similar to the Charlie Card in Boston. The bus and rail networks appear to be well-integrated, although I did not take the bus.

The streetcar is another story, and is probably the most embarrassing transit experiment I have ever experienced. I am a huge fan of public transportation, and if there were a limitless pool of capital construction funds, perhaps the realization of the Atlanta Streetcar would not be so offensive. What I witnessed was a colossal waste of tax money, a misguided attempt at civic pride and a possibly unconstitutional breach of the separation of church and state. 

I showed up at Woodruff Park in the downtown district at about 11 am for the ribbon-cutting ceremony. 




























The mayor was there with his wife and baby daughter, along with a regional federal transit administrator and certain other officials. 










The whole thing was emceed by a local radio personality, who I found to be funny, personable and genuinely excited by the streetcar. There was a benediction that was delivered by eight clergymen, each of them a local Protestant pastor. Each spoke for about a minute. Frankly, one pastor would have been one pastor too many. The prayers were laughable - something along the likes of "may the spirit of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost bless the streetcar, and may it provide useful service to the city." In my view, the sectarian sanction of this taxpayer-funded streetcar was wildly inappropriate and not consistent with the spirit of federal law.










Mayor Kasim Reed's speech was all about "getting things done" and about Atlanta being able to compete with the likes of Denver, Seattle, etc. I guess it didn't dawn on him the absurdity of having the same city build both the world's busiest airport and the world's lousiest tram. One of the speakers said "for those who doubt whether this is a good idea, this streetcar is not for you." Much emphasis was placed on the premise that this is the beginning of a much larger system. 























































The source of my unease with this trolley is the fact that there is no separation from road traffic - the tram runs right in the street with the cars, buses, trucks, etc. This greatly slows down the entire system. There is no traffic signal priority. In fact, there is nothing other than passenger capacity that makes this advantageous over a bus. In fact, a bus is better as it has detour capability. It is this kind of wasteful spending that turns reasonable people into Republicans.

Here at Spring Street and Carnegie Way, a truck used the tracks as a turning lane.



















The streetcar approaches the station.



















The trams were built by Siemens. There is a low-floor section at the exits and then steps to the upper seating areas. Next-stop indicators are provided, along with a system map above the doors.



















Connection to Marta rail is at Peachtree Center subway station.










It took 50 minutes to do the whole loop (less than 3 miles).

Rides are free for the first 3 months, probably due to the fact that the ticket machines are yet to be installed. It will be $1 per ride and $3 for a day pass (not clear whether the one-day $9 Marta pass will be valid on the streetcar). 




























Dobbs Plaza stop is underneath a freeway overpass.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

50 minutes for 3 miles?


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## JustinB (Aug 12, 2008)

Skoda/United Streetcar have been missing delivery deadlines, so it's probably a good thing Atlanta went with Siemens. 

The S70 streetcar looks better than the Skoda streetcar IMO, I rode the Skoda's and I found them to be pretty cramped inside.


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## CNB30 (Jun 4, 2012)

Yeah, I agree that unless they expand the thing, it will be a sad joke. Furthermore, the "blessing of the streetcar" does seem kinda odd, but I'm not surprised, considering that Atlanta is in bible belt central.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Woonsocket54 said:


> The source of my unease with this trolley is the fact that there is no separation from road traffic - the tram runs right in the street with the cars, buses, trucks, etc. This greatly slows down the entire system. There is no traffic signal priority. In fact, there is nothing other than passenger capacity that makes this advantageous over a bus. In fact, a bus is better as it has detour capability. It is this kind of wasteful spending that turns reasonable people into Republicans.


Ehm, maybe that is because it is a _tram_? The key feature of a tram is its operation among road traffic. Depending on the system parts can be seperated from road traffic but if it would not intermingle with road traffic at all, I would not call it a tram system, rather light rail, metro or whatever but not tram or streetcar. 

The strength of tram systems is that it offers a higher capacity, and considerably faster passanger exchange than busses. Also the comfort of the ride is often better. In central parts it is rarely faster than a bus and it is also prone to clogged streets. Intelligent tram lines designs give the tram own lanes in front of congested crossings and also have systems in place that give trams right of way at crossings, substantially reducing driving time. 

The "detour capability" is actually a non-issue or even a disadvantage. In Vienna for example the experience is to my knowledge that long busses are as often blocked by cars as trams. That is because they have a fairly big turning radius and people constantly underestimate it. But if people are used to trams they are very well aware that parking a car too close to tracks is not only a very stupid thing to do but also an extremely expensive undertaking and so this is a rare thing. 



The reason why I am critical of this system, is an entirely different one. I doubt if that loop configuration is very useful. Because as it is not such a fast system, it is very important that it really goes where people want to go to, if you have only a one way station this is basically nowhere the case, or at least only in one direction (most trips are return trips however). But the worst problem I see there is that the connection to the MARTA line is a one way stop as well. That is madness IMHO and if the sytems is to be extend this is going to make things even worse.


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Slartibartfas said:


> Ehm, maybe that is because it is a _tram_? The key feature of a tram is its operation among road traffic. Depending on the system parts can be seperated from road traffic but if it would not intermingle with road traffic at all, I would not call it a tram system, rather light rail, metro or whatever but not tram or streetcar.


Sorry to break it to you, but a tram can refer to light rail as wel as old-fashioned street trams. A tram is light rail the same way metros are light rail (according to European terminology).


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## [atomic] (Oct 12, 2013)

Slartibartfas said:


> The reason why I am critical of this system, is an entirely different one. I doubt if that loop configuration is very useful. Because as it is not such a fast system, it is very important that it really goes where people want to go to, if you have only a one way station this is basically nowhere the case, or at least only in one direction (most trips are return trips however). But the worst problem I see there is that the connection to the MARTA line is a one way stop as well. That is madness IMHO and if the sytems is to be extend this is going to make things even worse.


Exactly what I am thinking. Just expanding this new line won't make this loop less useless. Another bad example would be Cincinnati. Detroit gets it right when it comes to this.


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## Yak79 (Nov 28, 2013)

^^
IMHO, this seems to be by far the most irrational route ever! :wallbash: 
Ok, also Cincinnati decides to split up opposite direction, but there things are set in a way that will mitigate this weakness: tracks will be laid in couple of adjacent streets (under 150 m/500 ft) along the whole route, matching stops will correspond or will be less than 250 m/ 850 ft away, plus the stop between Findlay Street and Elder Street will enable users coming from Elm Street to effortlessly continue toward South even when the line will be extended (planned _Uptown Connector_). In Atalanta they apparently go for the worst: the East section is more a long loop than two separate way, in the West section every stop along one direction lies exactly halfway (350 m/ 1150 ft) between two (not) matching stops along the other direction, MARTA interchange is served only in one way and in the single short stretch with two tracks they even put an one-side stop! hno:
All those mistakes might have been easily avoided if they had chosen better places for stops and they had laid the eastbound track between _Centennial Olympic Park_ and _Hurt Park_ along this path: 


 straight on Luckie St until Spring St;
 left turn on Spring St, with a stop at the corner with Carnegie Way (the same with buses, easing an interchange now not even foreseen);
 right turn on Carnegie Way, with double track until Ellis St and a stop at the corner with Forsyth St (straight ahead a MARTA exit);
 through M. Mitchell Sq and then South on Peachtree St, with double track;
 along the actual route, but with a double-side stop on Auburn Ave (_Woodruff Park_) instead of _Park Place_.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

$47 million in TIFIA funding for this boondoggle (http://usa.streetsblog.org/2010/10/...tcar-proposal-gets-47-million/comment-page-1/).

Ladies and gentlemen, this is truly the fleecing of America.


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## Klausenburg (Jul 25, 2007)

I belive this is by far the best exemple how not to do public transport. A great gift for those opposing PT...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Georgia has a smart governor (or at least smart gubernatorial advisers). Knew it was best not to attend the ribbon-cutting ceremony.


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## Klausenburg (Jul 25, 2007)

I only fear that those opposing rail-based PT will have now have a fine exemple to share anywhere and anytime a city wants to introduce one...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Klausenburg said:


> I only fear that those opposing rail-based PT will have now have a fine exemple to share anywhere and anytime a city wants to introduce one...


this one plus the one in DC


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

^^ Possibly, but then again transit is foremost among those capital projects that is a political paradox - Any small investment will struggle or fail because the idea hinges on system-wide economies of scale, but no one wants to/can invest at such scales so it's only introduced in small pieces. Or, similarly, the opponents contest that an area isn't dense enough to warrant the investment and then development continues at suburban scales because their isn't the infrastructure to support urban density and the cycle continues, all the while the costs for all types of infrastructure increase geometrically. 

As best I can recall there was no one place in Atlanta where $47M could've made a substantial impact with rail without the promise of additional future monies, and while I'm not a subscriber to the political ideology of "spend it or lose it" there is something to be said about the effort for impacting a cultural mindset. Atlanta's hard-rail system likewise didn't fit popular appeal but I shudder to think where we'd be without it today. The hope here is that this is something upon which a conventionally anti-transit community can learn and build. 

I'm not saying the money couldn't be better spent, here or elsewhere, but I do feel Atlanta _had to do something_. Failure to try and grow transit in this metropolis will only engender more of the same stuff we've been getting for now decades, which is to say near nothing.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

GunnerJacket said:


> The hope here is that this is something upon which a conventionally anti-transit community can learn and build.


Hope is all they have.


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## starrwulfe (Nov 27, 2010)

Atlanta did have to do something. We've been talking about trying to build a streetcar system or some form of light rail transit to augment Marta since before the Bill Campbell administration and the Olympics in the 19 nineties. Sometimes you just have to jump on the opportunity no matter how small it is. Transportation isn't getting any better, we are past the age of building big freeways to solve all of our problems in northern Georgia, and there are still places where public transportation in some peoples mind sets means an efficient way of moving undesirables aka minorities through their neighborhoods. 

One good thing about this particular. Of time is that a lot of people are moving back into the central core be it people who have had enough of living way to hell outside the perimeter or new transplant into the city. As a matter of fact most of those new people that are coming into Atlanta or from towns that have already had really good public transportation and are bewildered by the fact that their new city doesn't.

I'm not saying that I'm on the bandwagon totally for this particular implementation of the tram, but you have to start somewhere so that you can demonstrate your resolve. Now that the tracks are in the ground, the electric lines are overhead, and the trains are moving up and down the boulevard every single day, people are going to see that and unlike the heavy rail system which is either underground or placed next to railroad tracks and kind of out of sight, the street car is right in your face anytime you come downtown and visit any of the main attractions. It will be a prominent feature that tourists talk about. Think of it as a demonstrator system they give the public a better visual cue of what can possibly be.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Great news. The Atlanta Streetcar, Georgia's greatest achievement since the Olympics, will remain free through the end of 2015! This is not an April Fool's joke.

Throngs of visitors have been flocking to the streetcar, Atlanta's unexpected transit success story. New lines are being built all over town to rapidly transport folks throughout the region. An urban renaissance for the heart of the New South.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/atlanta-streetcar-to-remain-free-for-2015/nkjLk/


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## MrAronymous (Aug 7, 2011)

Lol really? What about those articles saying the trains were empty.


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## Q3671 (Jun 16, 2011)

I think they build a small loop to learn from. They keep the overhead wirering simple be glad About that.
And why is the tram slow, to warn the other street users.
Now you pay 0,60 $ / liter gas wait till you pay 2,30 $ / liter.
We have over 100 years a tram in the city.

And sorry bad English


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

MrAronymous said:


> Lol really? What about those articles saying the trains were empty.


Well, it was April 1 when I wrote that. The joke is on the federal taxpayer, however.


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## Pink Jazz (May 12, 2015)

IMO, Atlanta's next rail line (either heavy or light rail) should be known as the Pink Line, except if it serves the gay neighborhoods which it should be known as the Brown Line, since Pink Line could be potentially offensive and would also promote gay stereotypes. After all, the Asian-American communities objected to the Yellow Line, which is why it was renamed the Gold Line.


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## DCUrbanist (Apr 4, 2014)

Can we just respect the fact that a transit agency made an otherwise completely insignificant design change (Yellow to Gold) and a community felt a whole lot better as a result? That actually sounds like good governance to me, especially in a city with as strong a relationship between public transportation and racial politics as Atlanta.


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## Pink Jazz (May 12, 2015)

DCUrbanist said:


> Can we just respect the fact that a transit agency made an otherwise completely insignificant design change (Yellow to Gold) and a community felt a whole lot better as a result? That actually sounds like good governance to me, especially in a city with as strong a relationship between public transportation and racial politics as Atlanta.


Yes, and if a new line were to serve the concentrated gay areas, it should be any color but pink. My choice of brown was completely random.


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## DCUrbanist (Apr 4, 2014)

Pink Jazz said:


> Yes, and if a new line were to serve the concentrated gay areas, it should be any color but pink.


This is getting off-topic, but I don't think pink necessarily has the same discriminatory connotations for LGBTQ people as yellow has had for many Asians/Asian-Americans. Pink has been reclaimed in many cases as a positive symbol of the LGBTQ community. Think the Silence=Death campaign, bright colors in general at pride parades, etc.

To get back onto the question of how we identify and perceive transit, connecting transit names and colors to the culture of the communities they serve is a really interesting question. In Los Angeles, a proposed line through West Hollywood, a major LGBTQ hub of LA, has the working name of the Pink Line. I can't speak for everyone, but as an LGBTQ person I think it would be pretty great to name a line through a gay district the Pink Line!


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## Pink Jazz (May 12, 2015)

DCUrbanist said:


> This is getting off-topic, but I don't think pink necessarily has the same discriminatory connotations for LGBTQ people as yellow has had for many Asians/Asian-Americans. Pink has been reclaimed in many cases as a positive symbol of the LGBTQ community. Think the Silence=Death campaign, bright colors in general at pride parades, etc.
> 
> To get back onto the question of how we identify and perceive transit, connecting transit names and colors to the culture of the communities they serve is a really interesting question. In Los Angeles, a proposed line through West Hollywood, a major LGBTQ hub of LA, has the working name of the Pink Line. I can't speak for everyone, but as an LGBTQ person I think it would be pretty great to name a line through a gay district the Pink Line!


Even though it may not be offensive to some gays, it is still politically incorrect because it promotes gay stereotypes. Gay men do not like or wear pink any more often than straight men. In my dream light rail and streetcar system for Phoenix, the Pink Line is intentionally routed through a politically conservative area (most of Chandler and all of Gilbert and east Mesa), which probably has a lower than average gay population for the Phoenix area.

Luckily Chicago's Pink Line doesn't serve either of the city's two gay communities.

After all, pink is my favorite color and I wear it almost all the time, but that doesn't make me gay. I have received a lot of compliments from girls with my pink shirts.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Pink Jazz said:


> In my dream light rail and streetcar system for Phoenix, the Pink Line is intentionally routed through a politically conservative area (most of Chandler and all of Gilbert and east Mesa), which probably has a lower than average gay population for the Phoenix area.


Politically conservative areas likely have lower than average openly gay population, but a higher than average closeted component.


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## CNB30 (Jun 4, 2012)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Politically conservative areas likely have lower than average openly gay population, but a higher than average closeted component.


Including, but not limited to 99% of anti-gay politicians :lol:


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## Pink Jazz (May 12, 2015)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Politically conservative areas likely have lower than average openly gay population, but a higher than average closeted component.


Doubt it. Most gays (either open or closeted) probably prefer to live in a more liberal area, since the local laws are more likely to work in their favor. In fact, in my dream light rail system for Phoenix, the Pink Line is only one of two lines (the other being the Silver Line) that doesn't serve Tempe, which is the most liberal city in the Phoenix area and probably the most gay-friendly.


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## DCUrbanist (Apr 4, 2014)

Pink Jazz said:


> Even though it may not be offensive to some gays, it is still politically incorrect because it promotes gay stereotypes.


The question of political correctness has a lot to do with the dynamics between who creates an image and who is represented by it. There's a difference between stereotypes and cultural iconography, and the difference has to do with who is creating and sustaining that imagery, and why.

Stereotypes come from people outside a group, often with the intent of marginalizing that group. This is why ideas like "women only care about money and appearance" or portrayals of Asians as yellow devils are so damaging: they operate hand-in-hand with larger cultural and structural forces that attempt to disempower those groups. I don't think anyone could suggest that stereotypes like those are anything but politically incorrect.

Icons like the rainbow flag or even the color pink, on the other hand, come from the community they represent as a way of fostering a common identity and pride. They seek to bring people together in order to strengthen social ties, increase political power, or even just feel more powerful or lovable in the face of a world that tries to disempower them however it can. It's not politically incorrect to connect LGBTQ people to an icon like the rainbow flag or the color pink when the people making that connection in the first place are the LGBTQ community themselves.

These icons, or even colors themselves, do not require everyone to feel the same way about them. For example, the rainbow flag signifies peace and international cooperation in other places, not gay pride. For some it might represent neither or both of those ideas. The fact that a group of people rally behind an image or color to mobilize their communities doesn't require you to see that meaning yourself. Red might mean communism for some, AIDS awareness for others, or even just the color you like to wear most.

Here's the beauty of all of this: LGBTQ people don't have to like the color pink. You can love the color pink. You and everyone else can feel however they like the color pink. It's a free country, and you're free to enjoy pink as much as you like, just like some gay people can dislike pink as much as they like. The fact of the matter, though, is that color pink has been a piece of LGBTQ culture for decades and a positive force for bringing the community together. Commemorating that history through the built environment (monuments, a painted crosswalk, or even the name of a transit line) is, in my opinion, an entirely appropriate way of acknowledging the meaning it holds for many people.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

First Quarter 2015 Ridership numbers for Atlanta

Source : http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2015-q1-ridership-APTA.pdf

*Bus Ridership*
Atlanta / Marta Bus - 191,400 (2015)

*Heavy Rail*
Atlanta / MARTA - 217,100 (2015)


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## [atomic] (Oct 12, 2013)

this one:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1158551&page=10


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/n-america/single-view/view/fta-announces-tod-grants.html
> 
> *FTA announces TOD grants*
> 16 Sep 2015
> ...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Atlanta streetcar vandalism
































































Source: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/crime-law/atlanta-streetcars-vandalized-by-graffiti/nnkYb/


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Where are the streetcars stored that the public has such easy access to them?


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## starrwulfe (Nov 27, 2010)

Underneath the I-75/85 viaduct midway through the route. IIRC the place is literally fenced in with cameras all over the place and looks like a 'streetcar prison' when closed up for the night. 
Looks like Barney Fife was guarding the place apparently...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

imoldovan1 said:


> Everywhere is a complete disaster.


What happened. Were you mugged?


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## zaphod (Dec 8, 2005)

First time I've seen a light rail get graffiti bombed. Thought that was the domain of 1980s NYC subway 

MARTA is underrated and had potential. It moves a lot of people and its two lines succeed in going places people want to go such as directly under downtown, midtown, buck head, etc.

It just needs an epic refurbishment, extensions, and or a inner loop line.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

Nexis said:


> Where are the streetcars stored that the public has such easy access to them?


For some, these types of things are a big challenge and they'll go through great lengths to access transit vehicles and the harder it is the more rewarding an accomplishment. In this case with it being a new system and perhaps the thrill of being the first people to successfully mark them being strong motivators, it may not be an indication that the vandals had "easy access" at all.


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## Dan78 (Nov 17, 2009)

imoldovan1 said:


> Atlanta has an extremely poor public transportation system. MARTA is just two lines (roughly speaking, because for example gold and red lines diverge not too much).


It still has pretty much the largest and most well-developed public transportation system in the American South (which, admittedly, isn't a very high bar). It's light-years ahead of both Dallas and Houston, and has much more utility than Miami's Metro. (The Jacksonville 'People Mover' isn't worth mentioning).

The system as it stands now is a good foundation for something bigger. It most definitely needs new lines. Atlanta should stop messing around with the ridiculous streetcar (which largely duplicates existing MARTA service) and work on heavy rail extensions instead, or something like the proposed Beltline.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Some Atlanta Intercity & Commuter Rail concepts from Track 29


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Some recent Atlanta Transit videos from Trainman1971


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## Rail_Serbia (May 29, 2009)

Nexis said:


> Some Atlanta Intercity & Commuter Rail concepts from Track 29


I thought it is an official plan, and I admired visionary. But, that is just a proposal from civil sector. Very good proposal, but that would be very diifficulte to pass.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*Second Quarter 2015 Daily Ridership numbers for Atlanta*

Heavy Rail / MARTA - 224,900 (2015) : 0.91% + 
Bus Ridership / MARTA - 197,500 (2015) : 0.94% +


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Streetcar is no longer free

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/02/u...or-a-streetcar-named-undesirable-by-some.html


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*third Quarter 2015 Daily Ridership numbers for Atlanta*

Heavy Rail / MARTA - 243,500 (2015) : -2.97%
Bus Ridership / MARTA - 205,800 (2015) : -2.84%


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Atlanta Journal-Constitution
http://www.myajc.com/news/news/loca...=AJC_internallink_011216_AJCtoMyAJC_streetcar



> *GDOT latest to raise concerns with Atlanta Streetcar*
> Posted: 6:43 p.m. Tuesday, Jan. 12, 2016
> 
> By Katie Leslie - The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
> ...


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Streetcar proves to be a failure:

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/streetcar-ridership-drops-significantly-new-fare/nqRDW/

This could prove fatal for other proposed streetcars in the country. Opponents will simply need to say "Atlanta" and those projects, in many cases, will die on the drawing board.


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## Innsertnamehere (Jun 8, 2010)

It should be a lesson of pointless loop streetcars that don't go anywhere. I'm amazed at the amount of them the US has built in the first place.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Streetcar proves to be a failure:
> 
> http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/streetcar-ridership-drops-significantly-new-fare/nqRDW/
> 
> This could prove fatal for other proposed streetcars in the country. Opponents will simply need to say "Atlanta" and those projects, in many cases, will die on the drawing board.


Tucson , Seattle , Portland have done well... Atlanta and DC seem to be rare failures...


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## browntown (Jul 28, 2015)

Nexis said:


> Tucson , Seattle , Portland have done well... Atlanta and DC seem to be rare failures...


2/5 isn't "rare"..


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## [atomic] (Oct 12, 2013)

Nexis said:


> Atlanta and DC seem to be rare failures...


LA might join them


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

We shall see with the other cities set to open this year , I don't think Cincy or Kansas city will be flops...


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## tinyslam (Mar 11, 2013)

If the streetcar was a integrated system around the city instead of a single loop downtown it would be less of a "failure". This is just the first step in an expansive streetcar network so the only failure now would be to give up and have a single loop.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Nexis said:


> Tucson , Seattle , Portland have done well...


Tucson has done well? 

The numbers you've cited suggest otherwise....

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=129797442&postcount=73

Incidentally, the city of Tucson has a significantly larger population than the city of Atlanta.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Woonsocket54 said:


> Tucson has done well?
> 
> The numbers you've cited suggest otherwise....
> 
> ...


Its done well enough considering how small it is and they are considering expansions...


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## phoenixboi08 (Dec 6, 2009)

tinyslam said:


> If the streetcar was a integrated system around the city instead of a single loop downtown it would be less of a "failure". This is just the first step in an expansive streetcar network so the only failure now would be to give up and have a single loop.


The issue with the loop, is that it's uni-directional.
I think that's why many people eschew it.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

phoenixboi08 said:


> I think that's why many people eschew it.


The other reasons are the fact it is interlined with surface automobile traffic and therefore tends to be slow, there is no fare integration with MARTA and the TVMs are user-unfriendly.

I think this will be the poster child for bad planning.


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## phoenixboi08 (Dec 6, 2009)

Woonsocket54 said:


> The other reasons are the fact it is interlined with surface automobile traffic and therefore tends to be slow, there is no fare integration with MARTA and the TVMs are user-unfriendly.
> 
> I think this will be the poster child for bad planning.


That's not what makes it slow.
It's slow if you need to go three stations in a counter-clockwise direction from where you begin (say, Centennial Park), but have to travel the entire length of the line - clockwise - to get there (say, Woodruff Park). In reality, one should just get off at Park Place, and walk...

That's what makes walking faster for many trips.

People are rather myopic and make too much about separating the ROW...They should have simply built the thing with tracks running in both directions or as a single line. Though, it remains to be seen how service will be operated (likely splitting lines as they run through various portions of the loop) when they begin implementing the rest of the envisioned system.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

I can't imagine there's any appetite for expanding on this system in the near future.


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## starrwulfe (Nov 27, 2010)

They put the cart before the horse IMHO.

They should have been concentrating on the Beltline Light rail plan. Then go ahead and build this loop as a spur that bisects it (loop would need to cross thru Centennial Olympic Park and run thru Georgia Tech and Atlantic Station.)

But most Atlantans are too wrapped up in trying to build more parking garages and double deck the Connector. 

...yes, I used to live there...


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## tinyslam (Mar 11, 2013)

Woonsocket54 said:


> I can't imagine there's any appetite for expanding on this system in the near future.


Not expanding is the only way to guarantee failure. 



starrwulfe said:


> But most Atlantans are too wrapped up in trying to build more parking garages and double deck the Connector.


Fortunately that attitude is changing thanks to the large number of transplants moving into the city.


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## browntown (Jul 28, 2015)

tinyslam said:


> Fortunately that attitude is changing thanks to the large number of transplants moving into the city.


It's not a matter of attitude, the city is simply not dense enough for trams. And that's not even mentioning the fact that trams are the lowest-tier transportation infrastructure out there. Commuter rail from the suburbs might make sense, but that's about it in Atlanta unless the city gets far denser.


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## tinyslam (Mar 11, 2013)

And in the next sentence you'll say the city does not have have the infrastructure to build density. 

If Atlanta builds a good permanent network of transit the density will follow. There are plenty of young people who are sick of white flight and are looking to live in dense areas of the city.


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## browntown (Jul 28, 2015)

tinyslam said:


> And in the next sentence you'll say the city does not have have the infrastructure to build density.


Atlanta is literally the least dense major city in the ENTIRE WORLD. I could see something like Seattle's version of light rail working if the city could afford it, but heavy rail with such low density or streetcars that go nowhere are useless.


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## Professor L Gee (Aug 10, 2009)

browntown said:


> *Atlanta is literally the least dense major city in the ENTIRE WORLD.* I could see something like Seattle's version of light rail working if the city could afford it, but heavy rail with such low density or streetcars that go nowhere are useless.


Dubai, Sydney, Melbourne, Houston, Phoenix, and Charlotte say hi.


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## tinyslam (Mar 11, 2013)

browntown said:


> Atlanta is literally the least dense major city in the ENTIRE WORLD. I could see something like Seattle's version of light rail working if the city could afford it, but heavy rail with such low density or streetcars that go nowhere are useless.


Yes Atlanta has some very suburban neighborhoods inside the city proper, but there are dense pockets all around the city. Connecting these dense pockets with an efficient transit system would only increase their density and increase the density along the lines connecting them.


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## TexasBoi (Jan 7, 2004)

Professor L Gee said:


> Dubai, Sydney, Melbourne, Houston, Phoenix, and Charlotte say hi.


Don't know about the others but Houston is slightly denser than Atlanta inside the city and the metro area.


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## TexasBoi (Jan 7, 2004)

Dan78 said:


> It still has pretty much the largest and most well-developed public transportation system in the American South (which, admittedly, isn't a very high bar). It's light-years ahead of both Dallas and Houston, and has much more utility than Miami's Metro. (The Jacksonville 'People Mover' isn't worth mentioning).
> 
> The system as it stands now is a good foundation for something bigger. It most definitely needs new lines. Atlanta should stop messing around with the ridiculous streetcar (which largely duplicates existing MARTA service) and work on heavy rail extensions instead, or something like the proposed Beltline.


Atlanta has a much better rail system than both Dallas and Houston. I would say Houston has a better bus system than Atlanta but it's slight. All the cities have much work to do.


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## art5617 (Apr 12, 2012)

It's painful to see how Atlanta has wasted the federal dollars they got to build marta when that money would have been put to more efficient use in Seattle.


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## browntown (Jul 28, 2015)

art5617 said:


> It's painful to see how Atlanta has wasted the federal dollars they got to build marta when that money would have been put to more efficient use in Seattle.


Wasted? MARTA is the 8th most used transit system in the US and blows Seattle's light rail system completely out of the water in terms of ridership.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

TexasBoi said:


> Atlanta has a much better rail system than both Dallas and Houston. I would say Houston has a better bus system than Atlanta but it's slight. All the cities have much work to do.


I think Dallas has better connectivity to its suburbs and surrounding cities then Atlanta. Atlanta does have higher ridership...


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## Professor L Gee (Aug 10, 2009)

TexasBoi said:


> Don't know about the others but Houston is slightly denser than Atlanta inside the city and the metro area.


I was going by population per square mile, not construction. Your POV is valid though.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

art5617 said:


> It's painful to see how Atlanta has wasted the federal dollars they got to build marta when that money would have been put to more efficient use in Seattle.


Seattle got a monorail, Atlanta got a subway. Sounds fair to me.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

http://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/2/26/11120894/marta-expansion-dies-without-vote



> *MARTA Expansion Dies Without a Vote Cast*
> 
> A bill to put MARTA expansion on an upcoming ballot and let voters decide the issue won't receive a vote in the Georgia State Senate. Had the measure passed, it would have given MARTA the go-ahead to pursue an $8 billion expansion of rail lines farther into northern Fulton county, south of Interstate 20, and along Clifton Corridor.
> 
> ...


So much for transit expansion.


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## TexasBoi (Jan 7, 2004)

Professor L Gee said:


> I was going by population per square mile, not construction. Your POV is valid though.


I was going by population per square mile as well. Don't know about construction.


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## weava (Sep 8, 2007)

MARTA expansion bill scores victory in Legislature



> A plan to let the city of Atlanta pursue a *$2.5 billion expansion* of MARTA scored an improbable victory on the last day of Georgia’s legislative session Thursday, championed by some of the same lawmakers who tried to defeat a similar proposal weeks ago.
> 
> The MARTA expansion, which is likely to include a long hoped for light rail system along the Beltline, would be funded with a half-percent sales tax increase that Atlanta voters first have to approve.


http://www.myajc.com/news/news/stat...ion-bill-scores-victory-in-legislature/nqrzK/


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

*Atlanta Streetcar offering free rides on Tuesday*

Ever wanted to ride the Atlanta Streetcar, but just didn’t have the time or money[...]


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

The Atlanta streetcar is a colossal embarrassment LOL.


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## vidgms (Feb 11, 2008)

Woonsocket54 said:


> The Atlanta streetcar is a colossal embarrassment LOL.


Why?


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## GunnerJacket (Jan 25, 2008)

Woonsocket54 said:


> The Atlanta streetcar is a colossal embarrassment LOL.


The streetcar is truly struggling, but anyone thinking it alone would prove a golden ticket in transit fails to grasp the context of the situation. The City faced a "Use it or lose it" scenario with regards to the federal funding to support a streetcar project, then local politics and a small degree of road construction schedule forced the selection of the particular route, wherein a key faction wanted to try and use this line to build tourism to the historic MLK district. Ideally one of the routes further north connecting Tech and Midtown/Piedmont Park would've been selected but that wasn't an option at that point in time. 

This is but one of several routes that will provide horizontal spurs reaching off of the central spine that is the north-south heavy rail. If Atlanta is to ever sustain their evolving urbanity they need to continue growing their rail options, getting residents, visitors and developers more experienced in local transit. Viewed in isolation the streetcar is not a success, but if the full vision is to be realized we need every incremental step possible.


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

*Atlanta hiring contractor to keep streetcar running
*

A $2 million contract for emergency on-call repairs and maintenance has been approved for the overhead electric lines and traction power substations of the Atlanta Streetcar[...]


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## FabriFlorence (Sep 29, 2004)

mensolú said:


> Atlanta's MARTA rail system is currently 49.21 miles long. Dallas's DART rail system is currently 90.09 miles long. Enough said. (Streetcar miles not counted.)


Yes, but Atlanta's MARTA is a full subway system. Dallas's DART is only a Light rail system that run on the street with crossing at grade, traffic lights etc. It's impossible to compare a subway with a LRT because a subway is more efficient, more fast and more comfortable.


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## subbotazh (Feb 4, 2015)

> *Atlanta gets $500K to plan future Streetcar corridors*
> 
> Atlanta has won a $500,000 Federal Transit Administration grant to plan future land uses along 16 miles of an expanded Atlanta Streetcar system.
> 
> ...


LINK: http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/atlanta-gets-500k-to-plan-future-streetcar-corrido/nsgFj/


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

Henry County (southeast suburban Atlanta) will be replacing its transit buses.










http://www.henryherald.com/news/new...cle_7bbf2b59-3701-5df4-80d5-a4ccbd8d32c7.html


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

MARTA tax was approved in a referendum










http://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/11/9/13575406/marta-beltline-tsplost-boosted-future-looks-bright


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## tinyslam (Mar 11, 2013)

An Interactive map that someone made with possible plans the tax could fund.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

"*Atlanta Streetcar — there’s now an app for that*"

http://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt-...here-now-app-for-that/BCxX7LFdFvXXKg422xBr6M/


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## phoenixboi08 (Dec 6, 2009)

tinyslam said:


> An Interactive map that someone made with possible plans the tax could fund.


Does this mean we _finally _ get to contextualize the intentions behind the [initial] streetcar project, now...or...?


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## sacto7654 (Apr 21, 2013)

Sadly, I think much of the problems in developing mass transit in the Atlanta, GA area have been seriously affected by racial politics.

Have you noticed that MARTA rail transit does not go to the northern suburban regions of Atlanta? It's major issue that has been discussed openly at least since the middle 1980's, and there are still no plans to expand MARTA rail transit in northern Atlanta beyond North Springs and Doraville Stations. And the refusal of many landowners to redevelop much downtown Atlanta explains why the streetcar system mentioned earlier in this message thread is failing and why the Atlanta Braves are moving to the new SunTrust Park in Atlanta's northern suburbs.


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## tinyslam (Mar 11, 2013)

You should really educate yourself before you go making brash statements about racial politics. While there definitely is some truth in what you're saying (especially in the past), there are other issues that are more important in MARTA expansion then racial politics. There are plans to expand the Red line north past North Springs along GA400. Cobb County is another issue that was motivated by income inequality and racial tension to not join MARTA, but I think in the near future they will join. The streetcar was built along a tourist route and sits in traffic so no locals use it. The Braves moved because the city didn't bend over backward like Cobb county did.


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## DCUrbanist (Apr 4, 2014)

sacto7654 said:


> Sadly, I think much of the problems in developing mass transit in the Atlanta, GA area have been seriously affected by racial politics.





tinyslam said:


> You should really educate yourself before you go making brash statements about racial politics. While there definitely is some truth in what you're saying (especially in the past), there are other issues that are more important in MARTA expansion then racial politics.


Both of you are talking about the legacy of racial politics and which counties have been a part of MARTA as a result, so I think you're both right. Regional politics continue to be heavily at play, as both of you also mention, and both of you seem to agree that racial and regional politics are certainly related. Personally I think Atlanta is better off now being able to spend all the money on its own transit, given its current geography, woeful inadequacy, and potential for serious improvements in access and equity in existing neighborhoods.

We've all seen how regional transit taxes typically have to give everyone their area's project before considering whether the more financially sensible or impactful ones get ahead in the line. Just look at LA (Gold Line) or Seattle (Ballard in 20 years) for that. Spending in excess of $2 billion for the MARTA Red Line to Alpharetta seems to have been Atlanta's great example of that.


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

The referendum is already paying off. Five bus routes get frequency and service span improvements beginning 2017.02.04.

https://itsmarta.com/february-4th-service-changes.aspx


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## Woonsocket54 (May 7, 2005)

"*Atlanta Streetcar Ridership Drop Offers Lesson To Other Cities*"

http://news.wabe.org/post/atlanta-streetcar-ridership-drop-offers-lesson-other-cities


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## mike1115 (Dec 27, 2014)

With the I-85 fire doom for the next few months it's MARTA's time to either shine or sink with how they handle this.


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## etherdome (Jun 20, 2013)

mike1115 said:


> With the I-85 fire doom for the next few months it's MARTA's time to either shine or sink with how they handle this.


It is not up to MARTA to sink or swim. It is up to local and state governments to sink or swim.

The city and state MUST invest in a real public transportation system. The time has come to build an extensive system of heavy and light trains that will transport people within walking distance of real destinations. 

Convert a portion of present-day street lanes to walking and biking paths. 

For crying out loud! How long will Atlanta keep its head in the sand? Adapt or fail. That is the law in nature and competition.


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## tigeruppercut (Mar 28, 2017)

mike1115 said:


> With the I-85 fire doom for the next few months it's MARTA's time to either shine or sink with how they handle this.


maybe this will convince Atlanta (and the state of Georgia) to invest in mass transit


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