# BELGIUM | Railways



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Transport strikes spark havoc in Belgium *

BRUSSELS, May 13 (AFP) - Strikes over management cost-cutting plans and wages by train and bus drivers created traffic chaos in Belgium on Friday and disrupted major services to London and Paris, union officials said. 

In Brussels, Eurostar trains to London and high-speed Thalys trains to Paris stopped running from mid-morning. 

A strike had been scheduled for the afternoon, but union officials said an incident between an angry passenger and a rail service employee made them bring their planned two-hour stoppage from midday forward. 

Regular SNCB state services from other major cities to the capital had stopped running at midnight, but began slowly returning to normal after 2:00 p.m. (1200 GMT), a spokeswoman said. 

Marc Heinen from the CSC union said the strike is over a new "management contract" which the unions believe could result in the loss of some 2000 jobs. 

Bus drivers in towns including Charleroi, Verviers, Nivelles and Lasne also held stoppages on Friday aimed at pushing through new wage claims.


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## De Snor (Jul 28, 2002)

*Railway bridge of Moresnet , Belgium*

This 1170 meter long bridge -the longest steel bridge in Europe- connects Montzen and Aachen West.
It was built during WW1 and got destroyed three times in 1918,1940 and 1944.
Between 1947 and 1949 the bridge got fixed and entirely painted in 1973.

Two companies Galère and Aelterman , builded an entire new bridge , costs € 23,40 million and it took 1100 days of labour between 2002 and 2004 , the most important part were the 22 metal plates. 

Some pictures of the bridge who is heavely used as a freight train traffic between Belgium and Germany.


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## patroeski (Jul 8, 2005)

*Calatrava's new TGV Liège-Guillemins station - Belgium*

The new station has been relocated 150 metres nearer the Meuse than the current building. The aim of this is to build rectilinear platforms to make entering the station and boarding trains easier. Of the present 13 platforms, only 9 will remain and the 5. 8-metre wide platforms will be particularly spacious and convenient. Three of them, 450 metres long, will be able to accommodate double unit Thalys trains. 
The station will essentially be on three levels: travel centre and subway, platforms, and lastly the footbridges.
From the subway, the platforms can be accessed via stairs, escalators and glass elevators. From the footbridges, they are accessed via stairs and escalators. Travelators [moving walkways] located on the Meuse side, convey passengers effortlessly from the platforms towards the footbridges.

Movie:






Progress:


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## Brendan (Feb 24, 2006)

Very interesting design, thankyou for posting this.


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## officedweller (Mar 21, 2003)

Nice!
The roof design looks to have been changed from the model shown in the first picture..


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## patroeski (Jul 8, 2005)

Here are some more pics:




























http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/24143/gare06.jpg


Here is a 360° panoramic view (you can also watch it fullscreen): http://geoimages.berkeley.edu/worldwidepanorama/wwp906/html/AlainHamblenne.html


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## Bitxofo (Feb 3, 2005)

Wonderful transformation!!
:drool::drool:
I lived in Liège in 1995 and this was Liège Guillemins station until 2002:








^^What a difference...
:eek2::eek2:


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## mr.x (Jul 30, 2004)

It does look amazing.......but it's also getting tiring. Everything Calatrava designs is basically the same style......from the tower in Chicago, NYC World Trade Centre station, OAKA in Athens, etc.


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## DrT (Jun 24, 2005)

Thnx for posting patroeski.
Really makes one believe that we have moved into the 21'st century.
Makes me feel like we are in the stone age here in the US. We do not have TGV's, much less train stations that look like that.


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## patroeski (Jul 8, 2005)

^^ 

no problem, I didn't know they don't got high-speed trains in the US.


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## sweek (Jan 30, 2006)

Bitxofo said:


> Wonderful transformation!!
> :drool::drool:
> I lived in Liège in 1995 and this was Liège Guillemins station until 2002:
> 
> ...


Haha yes, it certainly is a big improvement. I think it's a bit too much for what it is though, which probably has a lot to do with the strange percentage rules of what has to be spent in Wallonia compared to what's spent in Flanders.
This station only gets 36.000 passengers a day, which really isn't that much.


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## lpioe (May 6, 2006)

You can clearly see it's a Calatrava 
I like it a lot.
Is this station only for high speed trains?


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## sweek (Jan 30, 2006)

lpioe said:


> You can clearly see it's a Calatrava
> I like it a lot.
> Is this station only for high speed trains?


No, it is the main station for the city, all trains go there.
I think there's only a high speed train every hour(?)


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## eusebius (Jan 5, 2004)

The first station built in Lièges looked much better than the modern one that's currently being replaced by the Calatrava designed one.

Lièges is tied to the TGV network as well as to the ICE network Given its size, Lièges is well connected.


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## Brice (Sep 11, 2002)

Calatrava is so boring, always the same design!


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## patroeski (Jul 8, 2005)

Brice said:


> Calatrava is so boring, always the same design!


He always makes his buildings in the same style, but his designs are never the same.


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## Songoten2554 (Oct 19, 2006)

so what his design is awsome i like his design its his signature style in a way its futuristic


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## patroeski (Jul 8, 2005)

I didn't say its bad that an architect has his own style, on the contrary, he has created a style that no architect ever had before.


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## CharlieP (Sep 12, 2002)

Aaargh! Another off-topic thread in Subways and Urban Transport! I think I'm going to have to start a petition...


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## micro (Mar 13, 2005)

There's not much variation, that's true.


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## aquablue (Mar 18, 2006)

Well, Mr. Texas- I'd love if they had this in the USA (HSR,nice stations)- make sure you try to get your red buddies to vote democratic if you ever want to see something like this in your home state. Its the reds who are holding the country back from entering the 20th century, let alone the 21st. Its typical though, the stupidity of the anti-rail lobby is disgusting= a shameful travesty, and its all the republican's fault. Republicans = big oil, cars, highways. They also think rail is for communists, they care not about the environment, and its time for them to step aside.


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## an-148 (Jun 9, 2007)

if you don't understand French, the pictures will speak by themselves !!!!!!!!!! :
http://www.proxiliege.net/index.php?page=article&id=2461&idrub=25


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## Encore (Jul 22, 2005)

*The most impressive => Railwaycathedral of Antwerp (Belgium)*

A new topic about the railwaycathedral of Antwerp (Flanders, Belgium). First some information about the building:

Antwerpen-Centraal (Antwerp Central) is the name of the main railway station in the Belgian city of Antwerp. The original station building was constructed between 1895 and 1905. The stone clad terminus buildings, with a vast dome above the waiting room hall were designed by Louis Delacenserie and the vast (185 metres long and 44 metres high) iron and glass trainshed by Clement van Bogaert. The station is widely regarded as the finest example of railway architecture in Belgium. 

Project:
Since 1998 large-scale reconstruction work has been under way to convert the station from a terminus to a through station. A new tunnel has been excavated between Berchem station in the south of the city and Antwerpen-Dam station in the north, passing under Central station, with platforms on two underground levels. This will allow HSL 4 and HSL-Zuid high-speed trains to travel through Antwerp Central without the need to turn around (the previous layout obliged Amsterdam-Brussels trains to call only at Berchem or reverse at Central). The station now has four levels and 14 tracks.














































































































Building a second station entrance:


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## Looks (Jul 15, 2006)

Nice


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## EuroMaster (Jun 4, 2004)

I love the station! It's really impressive.


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## taboe (Jan 30, 2007)




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## Shezan (Jun 21, 2007)

my favourite railway station restyling


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## Xabi (Nov 8, 2004)

This station is really impressive!


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## Encore (Jul 22, 2005)




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## De Snor (Jul 28, 2002)

Recently it got said that the works have a delay of 7 months !!



De Snor said:


>


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## Zibou (Dec 22, 2007)

Is the station going to be served by any kind of mass transit system, besides the eventual rail commuter services and international / national trains ? 
I heard a subway was eventually planned years ago for Liège, and that even a section of tunnel had been build... What happened to this project ? What about a tramway network ?
Beautiful station by the way... reminds me of some to be seen in a foreseeable future on the TAV network in Italy...


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

^^here is a link to the mistery of the Liège subway
have fun :cheers:


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## Encore (Jul 22, 2005)

Opening of the renovated dome:



















Building a second station entrance:









Actually this station is as big as a airport if you want to see it all!


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## X38 (Jan 23, 2008)

Very good job Encore!


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## Anekdote (Apr 11, 2005)

Old meets new, an example for cities who wants to redesign their main old stations.


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## X38 (Jan 23, 2008)

Can you believe in the seventies/eighties there were concrete plans to demolish it and replace it by some concrete monster?


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## Quente (Jan 9, 2005)

Very beautiful building!

Two questions:
1. You showed pictures of a second station entrance under construction. When will all the work be completed?
2. My wife and I travelled to Antwerp from Paris on the Eurostar in the late 1990's - this definately was not the station that we arrived in. What is the name of that station that looks like it belongs in an Eastern Bloc country from the 1950's? As I recall, it was pretty ugly!


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## X38 (Jan 23, 2008)

Quente said:


> Very beautiful building!
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. You showed pictures of a second station entrance under construction. When will all the work be completed?
> 2. My wife and I travelled to Antwerp from Paris on the Eurostar in the late 1990's - this definately was not the station that we arrived in. What is the name of that station that looks like it belongs in an Eastern Bloc country from the 1950's? As I recall, it was pretty ugly!


That was Antwerpen-*Berchem*.
Some pics of the "nice" side:
















One of the platforms:








Some pics of the former station, it was destroyed in the seventieshno:.
















Here's a speciefied thread about it (in Dutch).
So you and your wife went bij Eurostar?:nuts:
That's not possible. Probably you went by Thalys (unless it was so at the end of the nineties, but that should wonder me).


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## Quente (Jan 9, 2005)

X38 said:


> That was Antwerpen-*Berchem*.
> Some pics of the "nice" side:


Well that's an improvement. It's a shame they tore down that beautiful building to put up such a monstrosity - I thought that kind of stupidity was only done in the U.S.?!?



X38 said:


> So you and your wife went bij Eurostar?:nuts:
> That's not possible. Probably you went by Thalys (unless it was so at the end of the nineties, but that should wonder me).


Oops - my mistake - it was Thalys from Paris. So if you come from Paris now would you stop at Centraal?


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Yes, a couple of months ago that change was made.

Now the Thalys (as well as the Benelux trains) goes underneath this station and a big part of the city in a tunnel. The trains also no longer call at Antwerpen-Berchem. I really hope they will make the platforms a lot nicer in Antwerpen-Berchem. Especially seeing the role it used to have, it was extremely ugly.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## paris_nombril (Oct 23, 2007)

*Completion of LGV 3*

"Line 3 completes high speed network
15 Jun 2009
BELGIUM: Line 3 between Liège and the German border was inaugurated on June 12, completing the last link in the star-shaped national high speed network and making Belgium the first European country to have a network of high speed lines linking its borders.[…]"

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_...9701/line_3_completes_high_speed_network.html


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## Yetzirah231 (Jun 10, 2008)

I must say: CONGRETULATIONS Belgium !!! It's good for the region, and you do much better than Holland.
As a Dutchy I feel ashamed that the procedures take so long in Holland, and here they are always complaining about money. And I feel ashamed that Holland boycotted earlier the Antwerp-Ruhrgebied railline.

Anyway, as an Utrechter, our most important line to Brussels is upgrading.
2nd important line should be now to make the tracks from Utrecht to Arnhem to 4 tracks, for higher speed.
AND: the government thinks again about a railline between Utrecht and Breda, so than people from the north-east can come quicker for a day to Antwerp etc. 



> see picture from MOMO 1435


I like the roadsign on the left side  hope it helps for high-speed cars.
At least they left some space for slow traffic: cows.
On the right side the idea of a rail track mainly combined +
next to the to upgrade highway Utrecht-Breda.


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## hans280 (Jun 13, 2008)

Yeah, congratulations Belgium! I have often taken the train between Brussels and Western Germany and he old line - though quite pretty, in terms of nature - was a bit of a nightmare. This improvement will be welcomed by millions and no doubt give the railway sector in Belgium a shot in the arm. :cheers:

I take issues with the article, though, according to which this is "...making Belgium the first European country to have a network of high speed lines linking its borders". I mean... surely not? You could just as well argue that the Lille-Paris-Nimes-Figueras connection (1300 km long, I may add) consitutes a linking of France's borders. True, the bit between Nimes and Perpignan is not HS, but then again, neither is the bit bewteen Louvain and Liege - to which comes that the sections of LGV3 east of Liege, whilst a huge improvement over what was, isn't HS in strictu sensu of the European 250 km/h definition.


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## JOVANO (Dec 28, 2008)

hans280 said:


> Yeah, congratulations Belgium! I have often taken the train between Brussels and Western Germany and he old line - though quite pretty, in terms of nature - was a bit of a nightmare. This improvement will be welcomed by millions and no doubt give the railway sector in Belgium a shot in the arm. :cheers:
> 
> I take issues with the article, though, according to which this is "...making Belgium the first European country to have a network of high speed lines linking its borders". I mean... surely not? You could just as well argue that the Lille-Paris-Nimes-Figueras connection (1300 km long, I may add) consitutes a linking of France's borders. True, the bit between Nimes and Perpignan is not HS, but then again, neither is the bit bewteen Louvain and Liege - to which comes that the sections of LGV3 east of Liege, whilst a huge improvement over what was, isn't HS in strictu sensu of the European 250 km/h definition.



They mean, all LGV lines are completed as planned.
Maybe other plans will be developped (Brussels-Luxemburg ??).

But this project is ready. More or less on time.

So full speed to Paris, London, Cologne is possible now.

To the North, we wait a little more for our Dutch neighbours who unfortunately make things always complicated 

Lower speed in the Soumagne tunel is maybe good for safety ??

From the border to Cologne, there is still some work to do, isn't it ???


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

JOVANO said:


> […]
> 
> From the border to Cologne, there is still some work to do, isn't it ???


Yes, between Aachen and Düren, upgrade from 160 km/h to 200 km/h.


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## hoosier (Apr 11, 2007)

Even though HSL Zuid is not ready for Thalys service yet, the track is complete which is a good thing for sure.

I know that there is a rail tunnel west of Aachen that is being upgraded and double tracked to allow higher speeds for Thalys.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

Thalys can't use LGV 3 at the moment, from winter Thalys will use it.


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## JoKo65 (Feb 28, 2007)

ICE uses the new line now.

ICE leaves the LGV 3 at the western end in Chênée. The train is just passing the voltage changeover from 25 kV 50 Hz to 3 kV DC, all pantographs are down:









_railfaneurope.net_


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## patroeski (Jul 8, 2005)

Some nice views of the new station:


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## Mr. Fitz (Nov 17, 2009)

Wow.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

A feast for the eye, but as with most of Calatravas designs it is not a practical solution. I can imagine standing on the platform during windy winter days freezing my but. The main problem I have with Calatrava is that he never design for the end user, it is as if he totally forget that his buildings are supposed to be utilized by humans, so most often his designs end up unpractical and even dangerous as in the case with some of his bridges.


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## briker (Aug 21, 2008)

that's fantastic!


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/leonbonhoff/Treinfoto/P3200268.jpg









http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/leonbonhoff/Treinfoto/P3200272.jpg









http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2673_1024.jpg









http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2674_1024.jpg









http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2676_1024.jpg


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## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

The nices railwaystations in the Benelux for me is:
#1 Liege
#2 Antwerpen
#3 Amsterdam


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## mrmoopt (Nov 14, 2004)

JoKo65 said:


> ICE uses the new line now.
> 
> ICE leaves the LGV 3 at the western end in Chênée. The train is just passing the voltage changeover from 25 kV 50 Hz to 3 kV DC, all pantographs are down:
> 
> ...


Does anyone know how this process works and be able to explain this in detail?

Is the changeover automatic based on beacons or does the train operator have to manually lower the pantos?

What happens during the changeover from within the cab? Is there a voltage selection that needs to be selected from the controls or when does the train auto-detect incoming voltage once the pans are raised?


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## Baron Hirsch (Jan 31, 2009)

People, do we just have to celebrate progress here all the time, even when on the ground things are not so fabulous? Another rail forum reported that a few days ago. Due to engine damage, two Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris reached Brussels several hours late. As the French high-speed network shuts down at night, the double train was not permitted to continue beyond Brussels. As no train engineer was available for taking the train through the regular network to Paris, they simply made all passengers spend the night in Brussels without providing hotel rooms. The train finally arrived the next morning 13 hours late. So fancy train stations, hightec to heck if the trains are managed like this.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

^^Look at your own country first, how is highspeed rail doing in Turkey?:tongue:
and tell me how many times does that occur?


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## Baron Hirsch (Jan 31, 2009)

Oh please, do not be so primitive to turn this into a "my country's better than your country" thing. I can say for a fact that no Turkish High-Speed train has yet run 14 hours late, simply since they are only around for two years and the line is only a 250 km - ride anyways. As for delays on old-fashioned lines, of course they can be horrible here. 
The one thing they always manage in this country (and for that matter, in most countries I can think of) is to organize some busses in case a train breaks down. As for Thalys, the last time I used it, my train was delayed because, as one fellow waiting passenger translated from Dutch for me, "for lack of a train engineer." 
So what i am aiming at is:
# Why does the French rail network have to be so insistent on shutting down at night that they leave over 400 passengers stranded?
# Why is Thalys too cheap to keep one or two train engineers on reserve like other companies would do?
# Why is Thalys too cheap to provide hotel rooms as they are obliged to by EU law?


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

joshsam said:


> ^^Look at your own country first, how is highspeed rail doing in Turkey?:tongue:
> and tell me how many times does that occur?


Woah woah, the man raises a valid point.


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Baron Hirsch said:


> # Why does the French rail network have to be so insistent on shutting down at night that they leave over 400 passengers stranded?
> # Why is Thalys too cheap to keep one or two train engineers on reserve like other companies would do?
> # Why is Thalys too cheap to provide hotel rooms as they are obliged to by EU law?


I'm not sure if it's EU law for train travel, might just be plane travel.

There are many problems with Thalys... they should be ashamed about this, but they are not. :nuts:


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

Silly_Walks said:


> There are many problems with Thalys... they should be ashamed about this, but they are not. :nuts:


What would you expect from a company which is mostly a joint-venture of the Belgian and French state railways.
That means to me that passengers are considered annoying and the main reason of everything that goes wrong.
Let's have a strike :bash:


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Instead of relying on what the newspapers say (that usually have hardly any knowledge of trains anyway), we could also look at what exactly happened as they saw it in Brussels:

Roughly translated from http://hgbtf.net/viewtopic.php?p=143101#p143101 (post by gysev):


> - Thalys 9358 lost all traction on the HSL between Schiphol en Rotterdam, driver wasn't able to fix the problem;
> - In the Netherlands no attempts were made at towing away the stranded train (do they actually have locomotives to help in such situations, like our 55 TVM?) and the next Thalys 9362 was designated for towing. Then the stupid decision was made to let the train drive through to Rotterdam and return from there to couple with the stranded 9358. The passengers had to stay on board even though they could've easily taken the Benelux train with which they'd be able to get the last Thalys in Brussels.
> - After the coupling - due to the nature of the defects - a maximum speed of 160 km/h was set, which obviously didn't do any good to the travel time. Therefore the train was refused by RFF (France): it would arrive well after 1h during the night in Paris and there were urgent maintenance works foreseen.
> - Brussels-South station wasn't informed that the train wasn't allowed to continue until 22h (!). Until that time, Thalys said they were looking for a driver to use the classic lines to get to Paris. Try to find a hotel room for 370 passengers in such a short time. It's impossible, even more so because after 22h there's only one person of B-Mobility on duty, who also has to take care train connections, taxi bills, organisation of shunting and so on.


When I look at that, it seems to me that it's a sad combination of things going wrong. A failing train just at the time that maintenance works are going to be performed in France and bad communication between the parties.

There's no need to bash the Belgian rail company for this. Sure, they probably could've done better, but they're most certainly not the only ones that made mistakes here and as such don't deserve to be blamed for everything.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## groentje (Apr 15, 2006)

Thalys didn't live up to it's customers expectations. Hotel rooms should have been available, Thalys could have been perfectly aware that train wasn't going anywhere anymore, they have their contacts with SNCF, too, they knew works were scheduled.


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## Baron Hirsch (Jan 31, 2009)

The reason why I wanted to mention this incident here is because I believe this is not a singular incident, but rather the shape of things to come in a Europe with liberalized railways. When a probelm arises, the infrastructure company (here French Rail) will say, "it is not our problem whether the passengers get home or not, we only take care of the infrastructure." The national rail company (here the Belgian one) will say, "this is not our problem, we are not running this train and have to much on our hands with our own trains." Finally the operating company, in this case Thalys, has too lean a structure, no engines for hauling damaged trains and no reserve train engineers, to deal with a problem efficiently on its own. In the age of singular national rail companies, this incident would not have taken on these absurd dimensions.


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## patroeski (Jul 8, 2005)

I think Turkey and all his inhabitants can be very happy if they ever get a transportation system as good the one in countries like France and Belgium...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Baron Hirsch said:


> In the age of singular national rail companies, this incident would not have taken on these absurd dimensions.


I disagree. Just look at how well the old national rail companies care about their passengers when they know there's no penalty for bad performance. SNCB and SNCF are despised by their passengers but those have nowhere to go except to a car, on an already overcrowded national road network.

In the Netherlands, NS feels the pressure on them because their concession is at stake and the competition is keen on taking over national rail services - Arriva and Veolia have already expressed their interest.

In the UK, passenger satisfaction is considered during the lifetime of a concession, and it also determines whether or not a given concession is extended or re-tendered. Serco and Abellio have been given a 2 year extension of their Northern Rail concession because they score so well on passenger satisfaction.

State-run railroads have their benefits, but that is mostly to keep people job-occupied. Just look at how many staff SNCB has, then look at how many staff NS has. It's competition that forces companies to innovate and focus on passenger experience and satisfaction.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

Baron Hirsch said:


> The reason why I wanted to mention this incident here is because I believe this is not a singular incident, but rather the shape of things to come in a Europe with liberalized railways. When a probelm arises, the infrastructure company (here French Rail) will say, "it is not our problem whether the passengers get home or not, we only take care of the infrastructure." The national rail company (here the Belgian one) will say, "this is not our problem, we are not running this train and have to much on our hands with our own trains." Finally the operating company, in this case Thalys, has too lean a structure, no engines for hauling damaged trains and no reserve train engineers, to deal with a problem efficiently on its own. In the age of singular national rail companies, this incident would not have taken on these absurd dimensions.


I think you're completely wrong, the problem has nothing to do with the (partial)liberisation of the raliways, such things also happened earlier.
It is however popular in union circles to blame the liberisation for everything that goes wrong.
The problem is just that for passengers operations the NMBS and SNCF are still the same as decades ago, only in the freight operations they are having difficulties because of their attitude.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Any plans for reforms of SNCF and SNCB?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The only way to get SNCB to drastically reform is when they actually can go bankrupt. They enjoy bankrupcy protection, which is why the unions can demand whatever they like - and get their way - without any negative impact on the company's future. SNCB in its current form exists since 2005 and has never made profit, always losses between 50 million and 200 million euros if it's not more.

When SNCB loses this protection, they'll have to heavily reorganize and get rid of a boatload of redundant staff, or face bankrupcy. It's the only way to change SNCB.


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## groentje (Apr 15, 2006)

Since some time, SNCB can go bankrupt, at least on paper. The legal framework that protected SNCB from bankruptcy has been changed under European pressure.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

The Desiro ML trains are almost ready to enter service. NMBS/SNCB has ordered 305 of these.









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5737296738/


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

The new locs (Siemens HLE 18) are entering service too (2 years delay due to problems at Siemens)

From now on, 8 new locs will be delivered every month (total 120).









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3337786976/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/maartenschoubben/5902741058/


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Will they be used on Benelux trains until Fyra comes to Belgium?


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

I believe they don't have clearence in the Netherlands yet


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

No, at first they will be used on the Oostende - Eupen route. Then they will be replacing the HLE 13 and HLE 27 on passenger services, this means that they will be reaching Luxembourg or Lille but not to the Netherlands (not even Maastricht because the IC Brussel - Maastricht will be discontinued very soon. And I guess that the NMBS and NS are hoping that the Fyra will come into service before all te HLE 18s are delivered. 

But who knows what happens when the delay of the Fyra trains takes even longer.....


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## EvilWouter (Aug 3, 2011)

New train station in Mechelen:

Video of the model:





Some renders:


















Some short history:
1835 - In Belgium a railway was opened on May 5 between Brussels and Mechelen. It was the first railway in continental Europe.



















They demolished this station in 1958 to build a new one, this one:










:bash:


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Both the new and old ones are nothing special. The second (from 1958) needs maintenance, though.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Here are some pictures from a nearby railway line under construction. It's located in the median of the E19/A1 motorway and goes from Mechelen to Schaarbeek. This means it can (and most likely will) be used for a faster connection between Brussels and Antwerp. The line allows for a speed of 160km/h at the moment, but I was told that most parts of it are designed for 200km/h.










Half-way along the track, there are tunnels that allow for a connection to the Brussels Airport station:



























Tons of other pictures and a whole discussion about it (in Dutch/French) can be found here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=974710

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## stingstingsting (Jun 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Both the new and old ones are nothing special. The second (from 1958) needs maintenance, though.


Presumably cos even the old one seems to be missing tarmac, gridlock and toll booths? 

... :nuts:


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

Glodenox said:


> Here are some pictures from a nearby railway line under construction. It's located in the median of the E19/A1 motorway and goes from Mechelen to Schaarbeek. This means it can (and most likely will) be used for a faster connection between Brussels and Antwerp. The line allows for a speed of 160km/h at the moment, but I was told that most parts of it are designed for 200km/h


Not entirely true...

This is the Diabolo project which allows trains from Brussels to travel to Mechelen via Zaventem airport. Lijn 25 will be upgraded to 160 km'h anyway so there is no benefit to use the Diabolo other then serve Brussels airport. Rumour has it that Fyra will use this line and serve both Schiphol and Brussels airport while Thalys will use the upgraded Lijn 25.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

stingstingsting said:


> Presumably cos even the old one seems to be missing tarmac, gridlock and toll booths?
> 
> ... :nuts:


No, because it is a building out of proportion with the foreground, the main platform hall, and couldn't be less common than yet-another-copy of the same station style of which dozens of units were built between 1880-1910 from Charleroi to Leeuwarden.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Maarten Otto said:


> Not entirely true...
> 
> This is the Diabolo project which allows trains from Brussels to travel to Mechelen via Zaventem airport. Lijn 25 will be upgraded to 160 km'h anyway so there is no benefit to use the Diabolo other then serve Brussels airport. Rumour has it that Fyra will use this line and serve both Schiphol and Brussels airport while Thalys will use the upgraded Lijn 25.


This is intended to be used by all Antwerp - Brussel IC and International services, not just those calling at the airport. Apart from being faster this line has the advantage of giving a better insertion in to the whole North-South complex, which means that IC services won't get in the way of local and IR services anymore.

The old fast Brussel - Antwerp line feeds the eastern tracks of the North South connection. The new line feeds in to the western tracks, which means there will be not as many conflicting movements anymore between Thalys and IC services, and locals.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Maarten Otto said:


> Not entirely true...


I fail to see where I made a mistake...

As said by K_, there won't be as many conflicts (and I've seen plenty of those already) that way. Also, not the whole section of L25 can be made 160km/h. Near Vilvoorde and Mechelen, the train will always have to slow down, even after the addition of the bypass of Mechelen in 2014 (that's what the plans currently say), which won't be the case for the new line (it can connect directly to the bypass). So in the end, the new line should be a faster option if you look at the average travel time.

I was also aware of those rumours, but I don't like posting rumours since they're... well... rumours.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Glodenox said:


> I was also aware of those rumours, but I don't like posting rumours since they're... well... rumours.


As to those rumours: Thalys will certainly use the new line (which is called 25N btw.). The new line offers a conflict free approach to the HSL terminal in Brussel Zuid. I doubt that Infrabel would even allow Thalys to still use line 25 once 25N is ready...


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## Dorfmeister (Aug 21, 2007)

Glodenox said:


> Also, not the whole section of L25 can be made 160km/h. Near Vilvoorde and Mechelen, the train will always have to slow down, even after the addition of the bypass of Mechelen in 2014 (that's what the plans currently say)


At the time being, the maximum speed in Vilvoorde is 140 Km/h. I do not think that we'll be needing a lot of works to raise the speed up.

Near Mechelen that could be more tricky indeed; anyway I do believe that the new station combined with a new track laying before and after the station could mean the end of the 100 Km/h restriction in the station. On line 25, of course. Maybe not up to 160 Km/h, but 20 or 40 Km/h can be won. 

It is on the books that the new bridges in Duffel will also bring a speed increase to 160 Km/h from Nekkerspoel to Kontich. The whole line is already signalled for such speed.


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## IanCleverly (Nov 24, 2010)

Can someone give me a rundown on a report I saw on RTBF's midday news today (via TV5 Monde) about what the network operator plans to do over the next 10 years please?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

IanCleverly said:


> Can someone give me a rundown on a report I saw on RTBF's midday news today (via TV5 Monde) about what the network operator plans to do over the next 10 years please?


Basically they intend to completely equip the network with ETCS over the next 10 years. Part of the network will see ETCS-LS though (makes sense).
At the moment Infrabel (the network operator) is busy installing TBL1+, which uses ETCS hardware, and is a little bit ahead of schedule here.

The end result is that probably ETCS will become mandatory for anyone operating on the Belgian network from 2025 on.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> Basically they intend to completely equip the network with ETCS over the next 10 years. Part of the network will see ETCS-LS though (makes sense).


They also work on a plan to replace all existing signalling towers by only 10
signalling centres that will cover the whole country. This is supposed to be
finished by 2020, but I suspect 2022-2025 is a more realistic expectation. 

This is not as difficult as it seems, as almost all mechanical signals and cabins have already disappeared. What remains is essentially all-relays interlockings, 
which are easily operable remotely. So the interlocking rooms remain in place
where they are, but they become unmanned and remote-controlled.

I visited one of those regional signalling centers a few weeks ago, and the
level of control that they have from there is quite impressive, much more
detailed than from the control board of an all-relay interlocking tower.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I have a question: what is the next high-speed rail project in Belgium apart from Bruxelles-Antwerpen? Liége-Luxembourg?


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

It's not 'real' high speed, but the NMBS/SNCB is planning to use Pendolino-trains on the Brussels-Luxembourg line, because they run faster through the curves in the Ardennes.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ They should build at at least a Bruxelles-Charleroi-Namur HSL system.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

The one thing about high speed rail is that you don't build a full HSR for cities that are like 50 km's apart. You really only build a full new faster line if the traffic demand is big enough and I doubt that's the case in this particular example. 

It's also very noticeable that the current lines are very international orientated. They didn't even bother to build a new High Speed Line between the 2 main cities Brussels and Antwerp. Why would they then build a new line in Wallonia? And why then not a HSL to Genth and Brugge (the economic hart of Belgium), either from Brussels or from Antwerp? But now it becomes political side to it, someone has to pay for a new line after all and Wallonia doesn't have the money.... But let's not get into that, it's already a big mess in the real political arena. No need to also bring that into here.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ The Charleroi-Namur-La Louvière triangle is underserved by new infrastructure. Pretty much everything that exists today already existed in 1980, be it airports, highways, railways.

Anyway, the Bruxelles-Antwerpen like is a critical case. They need a 270km/h line between two cities. In the Netherlands, they built HSL-Zuid between Schiphol and Rotterdam, a distance shorter than Antwerpen-Bruxelles. Then, they could run Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Bruxelles Midi trains that don't stop in Antwerpen, for instance, like they have Bruxelles Midi-Paris Nord trains that don't stop in Lille.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

^^ It might be good if you for once look a bit more into the backgrounds of why things. Then you know that as much as the infrastructure of Wallonia needs upgrading it's never happened because infrastructure there is a political minefield. A look into the history of the Charleroi pre metro would be a good start, it's a good example of political decision making in this field going horridly wrong.

And skipping Antwerp is pure nonsense, you can only skip the 2nd biggest city if there's enough traffic for a train from Amsterdam to Antwerp on it's own. And even then the time that can be saved is only very limited and probably not worth it. Even only upgrading the Brussels - Antwerp line with more speed increases and by-passes at Mechelen and Kontich is already much more effective for both international and national services between Antwerp and Brussels.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

The line straightening in Kontich reached a new milestone by having one line moved over to the straight bridge, and the bypass in Mechelen is coming in the next few years, with preparation works starting next year. Recently, the section between Mechelen and Brussels has become nearly completely 160 km/h as well.

There's no room for a dedicated high-speed line between Brussels and Antwerp. I do believe it should be possible to upgrade the lines further to 200 km/h though.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Momo1435 said:


> It's also very noticeable that the current lines are very international orientated. They didn't even bother to build a new High Speed Line between the 2 main cities Brussels and Antwerp. Why would they then build a new line in Wallonia? And why then not a HSL to Genth and Brugge (the economic hart of Belgium), either from Brussels or from Antwerp?


Actually in Belgium they did build high speed railway from Brussel to Antwerpen, and from Brussel to Gent in the 30ies. They were quite ahead there.

These lines are still there. The Brussel - Gent line will be good for 200 kph once the works there are finished, and Gent - Brugge will be 200 kph too. That's all the high speed that part of the country needs.

On such short distances increasing the speed beyond 200 kph is not going to give any gains in travel time that cannot be achieved cheaper by better organisation.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Recurring issue: the configuration of line essentially prevents any rail service Rotterdam-Bruxelles that doesn't, at least, slow down to 80 km/h for 3 kilometers in Antwerpen.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Recurring issue: the configuration of line essentially prevents any rail service Rotterdam-Bruxelles that doesn't, at least, slow down to 80 km/h for 3 kilometers in Antwerpen.


Given that there are probably more people travelling Rotterdam - Antwerpen by train than there are travelling Rotterdam - Brussel by train this is not a real problem.
(There is btw a lot of opposition to the planned high speed services. It appears that those pesky customers prefer flexibility over speed...)


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

K_ said:


> It appears that those pesky customers prefer flexibility over speed.


Customers?!?! Who needs em! :lol:


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## krulstaartje (Nov 4, 2010)

Are there any travel time improvements once the N25 project finishes? For example on Rotterdam - Brussels.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

krulstaartje said:


> Are there any travel time improvements once the N25 project finishes? For example on Rotterdam - Brussels.


Not known yet. But I don't hold my breath. After the completion of the
L2 and the 4 tracks between Brussels and Leuven, the service improvements
have been minimal. Basically, one does not travel faster between Brussels
and Liège now than in the seventies. Speed improvements are used to build
more slack in the schedules, so that SNCB does not pay penalties for their
trains being late. Hell, even with that, they can't keep up with the schedules,
late running has never been so widespread as today.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Recurring issue: the configuration of line essentially prevents any rail service Rotterdam-Bruxelles that doesn't, at least, slow down to 80 km/h for 3 kilometers in Antwerpen.


Not an issue at all given that there is no market for any high-speed train that
goes through Antwerp without calling at Antwerpen Centraal.

What is needed, now, is a rebuild of the Antwerpen-Berchem zone, in order
to avoid slowing down trains that do not stop there, and also because the
station itself badly needs it...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist;84936877Anyway said:


> There is no market for trains Brussels-Amsterdam that do not call at
> Antwerpen Centraal. And the area between Brussels and Antwerp is too
> densely populated to build a high speed line without incurring insane
> construction costs. You might think about using the central divide of the
> ...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ I don't like comparing things all the time, but the Dutch Randstad is very populated, yet they managed to build a Schiphol-Rotterdam brand new alignment crossing populated areas, environmentally sensitive areas etc.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

^^ True, but it's a known fact that Belgium has never really followed the basic rules of urban planning. Instead of grouping things together properly, expansions were easy to make without any real master plans. So while the amount of the buildings in both areas is probably quite comparable, our lack of planning in the past (not that much has improved lately, but whatever...) makes it impossible to still find enough free space for such a line.

Also, I'm pretty certain there's no public support for such a line.

Greetings,
Glodenox


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ I don't like comparing things all the time, but the Dutch Randstad is very populated, yet they managed to build a Schiphol-Rotterdam brand new alignment crossing populated areas, environmentally sensitive areas etc.


But the "heart" of the Randstad is rather empty. Nevertheless the High speed line should never have been build. They should have upgraded the existing line in stead. Delft could have had its tunnel by now if they had gone that route.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> Not known yet. But I don't hold my breath. After the completion of the
> L2 and the 4 tracks between Brussels and Leuven, the service improvements
> have been minimal. Basically, one does not travel faster between Brussels
> and Liège now than in the seventies. Speed improvements are used to build
> ...


That's what happens if you build first and then think about what you want to do with the infrastructure always...

They should take a page from the Swiss. 
First comes organisation.
Then comes technology (particularly signalling)
And only after that comes concrete...
All the money invested in HSL in the Benelux countries could have bought 200kph for most intercity services...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ The priority here is not to bring 200 km/h for all intercity services, but to provide (in the case of Belgium) very fast links between Brussels and Liège, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, London and Paris.

Different priorities (for political and economic reasons), different approaches.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> But the "heart" of the Randstad is rather empty. Nevertheless the High speed line should never have been build. They should have upgraded the existing line in stead. Delft could have had its tunnel by now if they had gone that route.


They said the same about HSL-3 (Bruxelles - Liège - Aachen) in the past.

The HSL-Zuid is more suitable for discussion on the Dutch thread, but the new route cut a significant distance of the old one. AFAIK, Hooffdorp-Rotterdam via HSL-Zuid is 47km via the new alignment (high-speed), whereas the old route via Leiden and Den Haag is 64km (with some sharp curves and excessive traffic between Leiden and Den Haag N.O.I., which means delays at the slightest problem) 

I know that HSL-3 cut the Bruxelles - Liège distance in 13km comparing to the old line. So it's not only about higher speeds but shorter and increased distances as well. Get over it: Belgium is part of EU and it is not following the communist-style centrally planed and monopolistic integrated system of the Swiss. To allow competition (like Thalys and ICE trains serving the Bruxelles - Germany route), you need to have more capacity than if a tyrant railway management existed. But it brings choice and diversity of offers of service, which is a laudable goal in itself.


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## MattN (Oct 25, 2008)

As long as you don't want to go anywhere else.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> I know that HSL-3 cut the Bruxelles - Liège distance in 13km comparing to the old line. So it's not only about higher speeds but shorter and increased distances as well. Get over it: Belgium is part of EU and it is not following the communist-style centrally planed and monopolistic integrated system of the Swiss. To allow competition (like Thalys and ICE trains serving the Bruxelles - Germany route), you need to have more capacity than if a tyrant railway management existed. But it brings choice and diversity of offers of service, which is a laudable goal in itself.


The capacity problem has obvioulsy been solved, but the speed improvements
we are still waiting for... A new high speed line to obtain just the same
journey times than 40 years ago does not bear a very high level of social
return, to say the least. Specially considering that it has entirely been built
with public money. One might have expected more tangible returns from their
tax Euros at work... Mind you, it's not the decision to build the line that I'm
criticizing, but merely the total inability of our national operator to take
advantage of this new and expensive infrastructure to offer a better 
service...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> That's what happens if you build first and then think about what you want to do with the infrastructure always...


I don't believe it has anything to do with that. The decision to build that line
was a sensible one, and the way it was planned to use it is sensible too. But
in the mean time, the belgian operator started suffering from 4 major 
problems:

- organizational problems caused by the split of the company in 4 separate
entities ;
- reliability problems with all new equipment which is failing way too often,
mainly because it is too complicated to maintain and operate ;
- security over-design and over-achievements which are hindering the
capacity to operate efficiently ;
- manpower problems caused by old bad decisions, like for example stopping
recruiting and training train drivers 20 years ago, the problem being now
that the training capacity can not even compensate for the natural attrition.

All of that ends up with a network which is totally mis-managed and thus
unable to follow their own schedules. For example trains are routinely late
(5 to 10 minutes) on a 30 minutes journey while this same journey was
accomplished in 25 minutes with no punctuality problems 30 years ago
in the same trafic density and conditions.

Any private company making the same management mistakes would go
bankrupt in almost no time...


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> But the "heart" of the Randstad is rather empty. Nevertheless the High speed line should never have been build. They should have upgraded the existing line in stead. Delft could have had its tunnel by now if they had gone that route.


High Speed Zuid is the only direct rail link between Rotterdam and Schiphol. That alone was worth all the expenses. Beyond that HS Zuid is a success even without suitable rolling stock as rising patronage proves.



K_ said:


> First comes organisation.
> Then comes technology (particularly signalling)
> And only after that comes concrete...


A strategy which leads the Swiss railways straight into capacity shortages and overcrowded services.
The right way is to occupy areas first and fill it with technology later. Otherwise other developments take up crucial space and block later expansions.



K_ said:


> All the money invested in HSL in the Benelux countries could have bought 200kph for most intercity services...


Not building HSL doesn't just mean no additional capacity. Upgrading existing lines even means less capacity as the speed spread widens.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ The priority here is not to bring 200 km/h for all intercity services, but to provide (in the case of Belgium) very fast links between Brussels and Liège, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, London and Paris.


So far the only line that has achieved this is the HSL to Paris. That is the only one that should have been built.
The HSL to Liège has not significantly sped up trip times on Brussel - Liège, so I would not call that money well spent.



> Different priorities (for political and economic reasons), different approaches.


The first priority should be not to waste tax payers money on projects with low economic value.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Get over it: Belgium is part of EU and it is not following the communist-style centrally planed and monopolistic integrated system of the Swiss.


You know, you should stop using "communist" as an epithet. It doesn't signal intelligence...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

flierfy said:


> A strategy which leads the Swiss railways straight into capacity shortages and overcrowded services.


When you see a queue in front of a restaurant what does that say to you? 

Now think again what overcrowded trains actually signify... The Swiss railway is probably the most successfull railway in Europe.
(And don't overstate the overcrowding problem. I commuted Bern - Zürich daily for 2 1/2 years. Never had to stand. Only twice arrived with more than 5 minutes delay...)


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> - organizational problems caused by the split of the company in 4 separate
> entities ;


I know that the split in infrastructure and operation is the favorite scapegoat at the moment. However I think that the main problems are that the fares (as paid by the passengers) are to low. Most of the revenue of the railway actually comes from the State, and so the company will concentrate on serving it's real customers: The politicians.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

K_ said:


> Now think again what overcrowded trains actually signify... The Swiss railway is probably the most successfull railway in Europe.
> (And don't overstate the overcrowding problem. I commuted Bern - Zürich daily for 2 1/2 years. Never had to stand. Only twice arrived with more than 5 minutes delay...)


The SBB themself state that capacity is their biggest concern. And that shortage of capacity go down to the refusal to build new railway lines in anticipation of an increased demand.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Well, in Switzerland has a lot of new railway projects that are in the political pipeline that take forever to take shape. It's not that surprising that the SBB wants to stress the need for those extra lines. But the situation in Belgium can hardly be compared to Switzerland, and that discussion is better for the Swiss thread.


Back to the Antwerp-Brussel line, was it ever considered to extend the tunnel in Antwerp past Berchem? That could have meant a considerable time saving going in and out of Antwerp from the South. Plus it would be extra capacity at a place where it's actually most needed.


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## pietje01 (Mar 18, 2008)

Momo1435 said:


> Back to the Antwerp-Brussel line, was it ever considered to extend the tunnel in Antwerp past Berchem? That could have meant a considerable time saving going in and out of Antwerp from the South. Plus it would be extra capacity at a place where it's actually most needed.


There were dozens of alternatives for the HSL lines in Belgium, there even was a proposal where the HSL's would only call at Brussels with a triangle near Herentals where the linesfrom (Paris-)Brussels, Germany and Holland would interchange.
This was early abandoned due to the lack of benefits for the domestic travel.

There also was once a proposal to have a line over the full length of the E19 motorway between Antwerp and Brussels, the endpoints were to be decided.

Also there was a plan to end the tunnel from Antwerp northbound behind the Albert canal, making the tunnel twice as long.

More than enough plans and proposals, but we're stuck with some bits and pieces where the big advantage for domestic travel are almost non-existant.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

modorney said:


> Any more news as to when Fyra (V250) trains will run to Brussels?


Officially announced now for Sunday, December 9th.
It will apparently take more or less the same time as the Thalys,
i.e. one hour less than the existing IC service.
But as it will serve only Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam,
it means that direct services with Dordrecht and Den Haag, and
to a lesser extent Roosendaal, will be lost.

Will the existing rolling stock be reused by NS-Reizigers in domestic
service ?

In Belgium, the 28xx locs made free will return to the freight service,
and that will be the final push on the exclusion of the old but iconic 20xx locs.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

MarcVD said:


> Officially announced now for Sunday, December 9th.
> It will apparently take more or less the same time as the Thalys,
> i.e. one hour less than the existing IC service.
> But as it will serve only Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam,
> ...


It is a huge improvement, one that might jeopardize the flights (7/day) between Schiphol and Zaventem.

Roosendaal will still be accessible via regional trains from Antwerpen. On the other hand, Roosendaal will get, I think, another national train service up north running 16x/day

Den Haag will still be reachable faster with a transfer in Rotterdam Centraal as there are huge time savings on the Antwerpen-Rotterdam sector.

I think they have or had projects for some Fyra services starting in Den Haag Centraal and calling at Rotterdam, Breda and Antwerpen, and arriving in Bruxelles Midi.


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## Theijs (Aug 15, 2012)

Suburbanist said:


> It is a huge improvement, one that might jeopardize the flights (7/day) between Schiphol and Zaventem.


As Fyra International will not call at Zaventem Airport, travellers will need to change with all their luggage at Antwerpen Centraal.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Brussels National Airport ("Zaventem") does not play a key role as Schiphol does when it comes to being a rail hub. The airport is important for Belgium, but it's of little importance to rail passengers.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> It is a huge improvement...


This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
and we decided for amsterdam. 3 hours after, I had in my
pocket the tickets to Amsterdam, a booking for 2 nights in
a nice hotel, and tickets to a painting exhibition in the
Hermitage museum. Will I still have the same flexibility, and
the same prices (34 € one way) once the train will be a
limited with yield management pricing ?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

MarcVD said:


> This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
> a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
> as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
> our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
> ...


As in any transportation service with yield management, some people win, some people lose, the median price goes surely down and sometimes the average price as well.

The case you described ("I woke up and just decided to travel from Charleroi to Enkhuizen leaving next hour") is probably a case of someone who'd pay substantially more for its "on-the-spur-of-the-moment" trip. But many people will be benefited with lower fares if they can plan in advance.

Today, Thalys already offer advanced fares that are cheaper than Benelux fares, but they do sell out quickly with 3-5 weeks in advance. When the Benelux train is retired and Fyra comes live, there will be more competition as all trains will require seat reservations, even if made 5 min before the train leaves in a ticket machine.

Then, people like students travelling on holidays/weekends, tourists from far away (that took a flight to Europe), people who commute couple times a week on the route etc., day-trippers going for a concert with known date couple weeks in advance, relatives going to family functions will all benefit from lower prices. Business travelers, people who "must" travel on short notice etc. will pay more. Seems appropriate for me.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
> a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
> as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
> our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
> ...


Well, you're not entitled to everything staying the same. In the future you will have three options:

- More expensive then now, but at higher speed and quality.
- the same at a lower price if you book in advance, with prices possibly being a lot lower then they are at the moment.
- with a change in Roosendaal at the current TCV tariff.

Given that that the first two options amongst others guarantee a seat, something that is a huge improvement over the current service I would always go for that...
I do a lot of spur of the moment train travel, but on international trains I always reserve seats. And if you have had the foresight to reserve you do get quite annoyed if your train incurs a long delay because of standing passengers without reservation.

What I however do expect of Fyra is that they make it easy for people with flexible tickets to change their reservation. For example just sending an SMS should be enough. And they could maybe even add an "unreserved car" like is common in Japan.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> - with a change in Roosendaal at the current TCV tariff.


At least we still have that indeed. That's not the case everywhere. I have
already tried to do it for Brussels-Paris, for example, and it is still feasable,
but only for very seasoned train travellers, and requires much more time.
Even with the change at Roosendaal, this still remains a hourly service
seven days a week...


K_ said:


> And they could maybe even add an "unreserved car" like is common in Japan.


That would be the best of both worlds. But I fear it won't happen, because
when that car will get full, standing passengers will then invade all other
cars on the train. Seeing the current load on those trains, I bet this would
happen far too often. And passengers in reserved cars certainly won't
appreciate too much.


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## modorney (Aug 21, 2012)

In the 80's, Belgium had a huge expansion of the electric lines, and came out with the Class 11 locos.

What did Belgium use for electric locos before then? I realize EMU's date back to the thirties, but were there any actual electric locomotives (pulling coaches, freight, etc.) prior to the Class 11's?


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

They actually had several classes before the class 11, 12, 21 & 27 that were introduced in the early 1980s.

class: year, total produced:
Class 28: 1949, 3 
Class 29: 1949, 20
Class 22: 1953, 50
Class 23: 1955, 83
Class 25: 1960, 22
Class 15: 1962, 5 
Class 26: 1964, 35
Class 16: 1966, 8
Class 18: 1973, 6
Class 20: 1975, 25
(Some of the numbers are now being reused by new locomotives.)

The locomotives in the class 1* where mostly used for international passenger trains since these are all multisystem locomotives. The the class 2* where used for both domestic passenger trains and freight trains. 

Class 29

Rangeringen met locs 2913, 2551 en TSP 6077 by John Liekens, on Flickr

Class 23

2341 en 2326 en een korte unit cargo by John Liekens, on Flickr

Class 20

2013 met een gemengde goederentrein by John Liekens, on Flickr


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

modorney said:


> In the 80's, Belgium had a huge expansion of the electric lines, and came out with the Class 11 locos.
> 
> What did Belgium use for electric locos before then? I realize EMU's date back to the thirties, but were there any actual electric locomotives (pulling coaches, freight, etc.) prior to the Class 11's?


I suppose you question was : what kind of electric locos were used to pull 
the Brussels-Amsterdam before the HLE 11 came in place ?

That was HLE 25.5, dual voltage 1500/3000 DC. They pulled a consist made
of 2 SNCB cars and 4 NS cars, one of them equipped with a driver's cabin.

Some pictures on http://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/ and a picture
of the whole consist at http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=...=zDp4UO7WBc_OswaTj4DIDA&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAg&dur=0


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## modorney (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanks! That helps a lot. From what I gather, Brussels to Amsterdam wwas not fuly electrified until after WWII?

I seem to remember some Brussels commuter lines being electrified, but i would imagine those lines had EMU's and not locomotives and unpowered cars? (Of course, an EMU could pull an unpowered trailer.)

Another question - Märklin 4397 cars - http://www.collector-modeltrains.com/dash/universe/catalog_item/MT-0841889/
When were they used ? What was used to pull them? How long were the trains?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

modorney said:


> Thanks! That helps a lot. From what I gather, Brussels to Amsterdam wwas not fuly electrified until after WWII?


Now, electric service on that line only started in the 60ies. Until then the international trains were diesel hauled. That is what it looked like:











> I seem to remember some Brussels commuter lines being electrified, but i would imagine those lines had EMU's and not locomotives and unpowered cars? (Of course, an EMU could pull an unpowered trailer.)


Before the war only Brussel - Antwerpen and Brussel Tervuren (the latter later nationalised and promptly closed in the 50ies) were electric. 
They both used EMUs. EMUs were never used to pull unpowerd trailers in Belgium AFAIK.


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

The last non electrified gap on the Brussel - Amsterdam route was closed in 1957 when the line between Antwerp and Roosendaal in the Netherlands was electrified. This was also the year the Beneluxtrain started operation. These where operated by EMUs that were based on the Dutch class Mat '54 that where owned by the NS and the NMBS/SNCB. From 1974 push-pull trains where also used with the Belgian class 25.5 locomotives and a mix of Belgian and Dutch carriages. For the other international trains the electrical age only started in the 1960s when class 15 was used for the TEE trains between Paris and Amsterdam. 

electrification time line:
Amsterdam - Rotterdam: 1927
Rotterdam - Dordrecht: 1934
Antwerp - Brussel: 1935
Dordrecht - Roosendaal: 1950
Roosendaal - Antwerp: 1957



The Märklin 4397 cars are originally German cars, either they came to Belgium as WW1 reparations or they were stranded in Belgium after WW2 and used by the Belgium railways. I can't find any info on where they were used, so I don't think that there where many of these cars in Belgium. They might have been used on regional lines with a steam or diesel locomotive.


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## modorney (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanks for all the updates. It is interesting that Amsterdam-Rotterdam was electrified before Brussels-Antwerp. 

Does Tervuren have a good commuter rail connection to downtown Brussels? Or does "everybody" take the 44 Tram? Or do Tervuren commuters work elsewhere (like around the airport?) Why wasn't Tervuren included in the planned RER (GEN) system?

Here's a hot topic. With the new mayor of Antwerp advocating a split Belgium, what would a split Belgium mean for SNCB ? Especially rail service in Wallonia?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

modorney said:


> Does Tervuren have a good commuter rail connection to downtown Brussels? Or does "everybody" take the 44 Tram? Or do Tervuren commuters work elsewhere (like around the airport?) Why wasn't Tervuren included in the planned RER (GEN) system?


Commuters from Tervuren mostly take the car (like most commuters) and spend lots of time at a snails pace (like most commuters).
The line to Tervuren was closed once it was nationalised, part of it has been reused for tram 39 (the Tulpen - Ban Eik section if you want to look it up on the map). On arial pictures (like on google maps) you can still make out most of the rest of the route. It's really a shame it was closed. It would have been a good addition to the Metro network.
The FLemish Government has some plans for now light rail services around Brussel, and these might come to Tervuren too.



> Here's a hot topic. With the new mayor of Antwerp advocating a split Belgium, what would a split Belgium mean for SNCB ? Especially rail service in Wallonia?


What it would mean for Wallonia would be up to the Walloons. For Flanders it would probably mean that regional rail finally gets integrated with busses and trams, as it should, and that idiotic situations, like suburban railway lines that only run once ever hour, and not at all on weekends finally disappear.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

I've just returned from a long weekend in Belgium. We've moved around with a train quite a lot and I have to say that the system is a big step down compared with the one in Switzerland or Germany (almost every train was late!)... Antwerp central station, however, is a bright spot - one of the best looking train stations I've been to.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

^^raillines in Belgium have severe bottlenecks in bigger cities. This means if one train runs late for 30min, the whole scedule get f**ked up.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Ring Ring....telephone crossing eh?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ It was defective. Some object interfering with the signaling.

This is how Belgian level crossings normally sound like


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## modorney (Aug 21, 2012)

Where exactly in Antwerp is this swing bridge? (left side of picture)


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

modorney said:


> Where exactly in Antwerp is this swing bridge? (left side of picture)


That's the Nassaubrug, between Bonapartedok and Willemdok. The building site is for the MAS (Museum aan de Stroom) which is quite worth a visit if you're ever in Antwerpen.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

^^


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## modorney (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanks!! A must see museum! You guys are great!


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## erka (Apr 26, 2003)

I have visited the MAS last summer. It is a really great building with exceptional views. I found the museum not very interesting though. Quite traditional, dark, not a great collection. But the MAS itself is beautiful.


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## Stainless (Jun 7, 2009)

erka said:


> I have visited the MAS last summer. It is a really great building with exceptional views. I found the museum not very interesting though. Quite traditional, dark, not a great collection. But the MAS itself is beautiful.


I found it a bit interesting, but I didn't pay so didn't feel it owed me anything. Too many pieces with no context. The view on the top was nice though.


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## modorney (Aug 21, 2012)

Does anyone remember an unusual signal at the platform at Liege-Guillemins? It was a signal telling the lead engineer that the pusher (needed to get up the hill headed towards Brussels) was coupled up and ready.

Not the daisy (Marguerite), but a red neon letters sign.


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## Dorfmeister (Aug 21, 2007)

modorney said:


> Does anyone remember an unusual signal at the platform at Liege-Guillemins? It was a signal telling the lead engineer that the pusher (needed to get up the hill headed towards Brussels) was coupled up and ready.
> 
> Not the daisy (Marguerite), but a red neon letters sign.


There is a signal with 3 letters (ALL) which is lit while the pusher engine is against the train (this pusher is NOT coupled)


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## modorney (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanks!


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## Dorfmeister (Aug 21, 2007)

That was the situation in the old Guillemins configuration. 

Nowadays, there are only 3 tracks in the station where the departure can be done with this light system. 

This system is a help for us as we're starting the train BUT a departure with a pusher engine behind can also be done on the other tracks even if the light system is not available. 

But I won't make you the full sum up of the SNCB driver's rules regarding "les plans inclinés", that'll be damn long


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## makita09 (Sep 8, 2009)

Proper term for a pusher is banker.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

makita09 said:


> Proper term for a pusher is banker.


In the US the proper term for a banker is a pusher, or helper. Railway terms on both sides of the pond make for some interesting discussions...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Starting from december, M6 double decker stock will be running on the IC A (Oostende - Eupen) over HSL 2 along with the current stock (I11 coaches). The rakes will be hauled by T18 locomotives, but will run without a cab car. 

For the past couple of months, SNCB has been running nightly test runs on HSL 2 to determine how the coaches will handle 200 kph. The tests were successful for the regular coaches, but the cab cars were considered to be inappropriate as there were too much vibrations.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> Starting from december, M6 double decker stock will be running on the IC A (Oostende - Eupen) over HSL 2 along with the current stock (I11 coaches). The rakes will be hauled by T18 locomotives, but will run without a cab car.
> 
> For the past couple of months, SNCB has been running nightly test runs on HSL 2 to determine how the coaches will handle 200 kph. The tests were successful for the regular coaches, but the cab cars were considered to be inappropriate as there were too much vibrations.


This means that NMBS can free some I11 stock. Could these be used for Brussel - Amsterdam services over the HSL?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

That will depend on how much rakes will be replaced with M6. My guess is that about 7 or 8 rakes will be required for Amsterdam - Brussels services, given that SNCB is willing to do so.


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## Maarten Otto (Apr 22, 2010)

Latest plans are to re-introduce the V250 in April 2014. Till December we're stuck with the current situation - where unsurprisingly - competition has announced to offer a far better product. 

From December 16 daily trains are again planned for Amsterdam - Brussels. In the meantime competition might establish a TOC and find a ROSCO to supply them with 140 km/h stock. 

The former ICK coaches that NSFS sold to Hector Rail last moth can provide a solution for the new TOC. I that case the competition is on, which can only result in a better product for the customer.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Maarten Otto said:


> Latest plans are to re-introduce the V250 in April 2014.


Earlier plans were to have them running in 2007 and now 6 years later they still don't work properly. So why am I not that confident that it will next year?


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## Mediarail.be (May 20, 2013)

Cars I11 have a maximum speed of 200km/h. It's depend of trains path because a slow path increase time between two. I think that's not a problem between Antwerp and Rotterdam because traffic is low. But on Rotterdam-Amsterdam route, it's more crowded. But there exist also the "national" Fyra between Breda and Amsterdam-CS...Well it's a debat to netherland's threat !


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## Mediarail.be (May 20, 2013)

From International Railway Journal Monday, June 03, 2013 

SNCB cancels order for AnsaldoBreda V250 trains (_by Quintus Vosman_)

THE saga surrounding Fyra cross-border services between the Netherlands and Belgium took another twist on May 31, when Belgian National Railways (SNCB) announced it had cancelled its order for V250 high-speed trains with AnsaldoBreda.

In a statement, SNCB said: "The design of the V250 train has fundamental shortcomings with potentially serious effects with regards to both safety and reliability. Also the quality management of the construction of the train is inadequate. Under these circumstances, SNCB can only respond by cancelling its order for the V250 sets."

The trains were originally due to be delivered in 2007, and eventually entered commercial service between Amsterdam and Brussels on December 9 2012. However just a few weeks later on January 17 the trains were withdrawn after it had been discovered that accumulations of snow had dislodged underfloor components, causing them to fall onto the track. At this point both SNCB and Netherlands Railways (NS) gave AnsaldoBreda three months to resolve the technical problems and bring the trains up to the quality standards specified in the contract. SNCB warned AnsaldoBreda that if it did not meet this deadline it would cancel the contract entirely.

Last week SNCB CEO Mr Marc Descheemaeker presented a long list of problems with the V250s, including safety-related issues such as overheating battery packs, loose roof-mounted components, and corrosion on wheelsets and bogies. SNCB says it is no longer confident that the problems it has identified will be resolved, or that the trains will meet the required standards.

SNCB and NS have jointly commissioned Mott MacDonald to carry out a report into the commissioning of the V250 fleet. This report suggests that solving fundamental problems will require considerable additional investment and will could take between 17 months and two years to rectify.

SNCB has also commissioned another consultancy, Concept Risk, France, to scrutinise the technical liability of the V250. Concept Risk expressed serious doubts about the design and construction of the train, including maintenance costs and the performance of the braking system.

Furthermore, SNCB is concerned about the financial position of AnsaldoBreda's parent company Finmeccanica, which it argues could have long-term implications for the supply of spare parts for the V250 fleet.

SNCB has therefore decided to cancel its order for three trains and revoke the bank guarantees on the preliminary payments, which are worth €37m. It is also preparing a legal claim for damages from AnsaldoBreda.

The manufacturer has responded by saying it does not agree with SNCB's decision or the conclusions of the research. The company says it is determined to retain the contract, together with the much larger contract for 16 trains with NS, which has yet to make a formal decision on how to proceed. This means it is very likely that AnsaldoBreda and SNCB will meet in court in the near future.

The Dutch V250s were ordered by NS Financial Services, the Dublin-based leasing subsidiary of NS.

The cancelation of the V250 order has major implications for the High-Speed Alliance, the joint venture between NS (90%) and KLM (10%) which holds the contract to operate Fyra services jointly with SNCB.

A decision is expected to be made on the future of the Dutch V250 order by June 20.

Meanwhile a solution still has to be found for the operation of cross-border services between Amsterdam and Brussels. Since March a two-hourly service has operated between The Hague and Brussels, using Bombardier Traxx multi-system locomotives leased by SNCB and Dutch ICRm coaching stock. These trains operate on the conventional network, crossing the border at Roosendaal.

Following the cancellation of the V250 order, SNCB will reopen discussions with NS on the future of train services between Belgium and the Netherlands. The aim is to reinstate an hourly service, but the first step will be to increase the frequency to 10 trains per direction per day from September, followed by further increase in frequency in December. As a shareholder in Thalys, SNCB will urge stepping up Amsterdam – Brussels – Paris high-speed services, and likewise, as a shareholder in Eurostar it will make the case for extending London – Brussels trains to Amsterdam, although this is unlikely to happen before 2016. In addition, SNCB has revived plans for conventional cross-border services from Antwerp to Eindhoven.

(_by Quintus Vosman_) International Railway Journal


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## Axelferis (Jan 18, 2008)

belgians railways are bad!
No spectacular things except Liege station


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## Nergens (Sep 10, 2010)

Axelferis said:


> belgians railways are bad!
> No spectacular things except Liege station


Have you ever been to Antwerp Central? (since 2008)


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Have they finished the works on Zaventen Airport station?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Through-trains stop at Brussel-Nationaal-Luchthaven nowadays.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Axelferis is from Italy....He's just butthurt AnsaldoBreda delivered a bunch of crap trains and the Belgian government is used to speak up...

Not to mention the crap trams they made (where the floor rusted out) and oh....that helicopter that only flies from time to time.

When doors fall off, rust starts to appear afther a few months, batteries explode, and pieces of the roof come loose while driving....You've done a bad job. Now the Italian government accusing NMBS/SCNB for bad maintanance and tries to sue us? :lol:

When a highspeed train falls apart afther a few test runs, that has nothing to do with maintanance. And then they also try to blame the Belgian weather. "It snows in Belgium" No shit sherlock, you didn't think about that?


Some damage taken:









Underneath the train; heavy damage from just driving at the regular speed these trains should operate (230-250km/h)


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Axelferis said:


> belgians railways are bad!
> No spectacular things except Liege station


The Belgian Railways are certainly better than your English.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

^^


:lol:


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

So what will be the long-term outcome for the new HS line between Rotterdam and Antwerp? 

Trains from Alstom, Siemens - Hitachi?


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

^^That would be nice!


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

TedStriker said:


> So what will be the long-term outcome for the new HS line between Rotterdam and Antwerp?
> 
> Trains from Alstom, Siemens - Hitachi?


Or Bombardier...

Right now there is a tender running for 249kph trains for SBB. I would imagine that one of the designs that comes out of that would be a good match for the Dutch/Belgian HSL services.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

They should go for 320 km/h trains if they put out a new tender. That would make 1h39 Amsterdam-Bruxelles travelling possible.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Not sure if 320km/h trains make sense when they have to stop twice in between Antwerp and Amsterdam. Maybe they don't even get up to that speed in such short distance an the heavy thrain traffic in the region. I think 250km/h will do.

Thalys, ICE and TGV also don't drive 320km/h between Brussels-Lille, Brussels-Antwerp, Brussels-Liège-Köln. I have no idea wich top speed they make on those short distances though.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Antwerpen station is possibly the prettiest in Europe, but other than that really not so much to brag about regarding Belgian railways...


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

^^

Why would bragging be your goal?


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

We don't brag do we? We know the flaws in our railsystem and many hate the NMBS/SNCB for it because change is slow and not many things have been accomplished.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Silly_Walks said:


> ^^
> 
> Why would bragging be your goal?


It's just a manner of speaking, you can substitute it with "being proud of"


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Well, we aren't.

However, in Bruges and Ghent new railway stations are being build as we speak. Leuven has a new railwaystation, Liège has a new railwaystation. Antwerp was renovated extensively.

The worst of the worst of Belgian railways is just Brussels. Why NMBS/SNCB doesn't tackel this problem, who knows? It's a downright shame, an I feel ashamed that international travelers have to see 3 outdated main railwaystations (South-Central-North) in Brussels that have been badly kept over the years and have never been modernised.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Train stations in Brussels aren't great, but what bothered me a lot more when I was there late last year is the numerous delays and very crowded trains (middle of a day). 

It's great if the services are fast, but for short and medium distance routes it's far more important that delays are very rare so commuters can trust 10 min connections.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

The delays are a problems yes. Also because Brussels is a huge botlleneck. The amount of trains that have to pass throught Brussels on the available amount is tracks is just to much for the system to cope with. Also it depends of where you took the train and to what destinations. Some lines are always full no matter what day or hour you take them. If one trains runs just a bit late, the whole system gets delayed.... Changes are underway, but I'm afraid Brussels is going to be a bottleneck for at least the next decade 

here is the botlleneck filmed just outside Brussels South.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

320 km/h trains would be a waste of money as the design speed for HSL-Zuid is 300 km/h. I am positive it's possible to go faster than that, but I don't think the authorities will let you.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

Thermo said:


> The Desiro trains finally entered service
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Slowly the Desiro-trains are taking over by replacing the older trains. The delivery (of over 300 trains) was stopped a few months ago because of problems with the trains but Siemens have solved the issues and the delivery (of 5 to 8 trains per month) has been resumed.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

:Banana: The front of the trains looks badass I think, especially with that metal protector V shape in front. Is that for when the track are to deep in the snow?









http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8174/8057916101_0b92750506_c.jpg









http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n523/ltshaq01/Erquelinnes/P1220617.jpg









http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n523/ltshaq01/Erquelinnes/P1220580.jpg









http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n523/ltshaq01/Erquelinnes/P1220587.jpg


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Coupled to and older train:










This hurts to watch:


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Trains near Ghent:









http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7287/8738164651_4a52fec6ba_c.jpg









http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7286/8739284208_fb3797f5f2_c.jpg









http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7287/8738164525_04db053b7c_c.jpg


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

joshsam said:


> Coupled to and older train:


Coupled ? Certainly not ! The other train in this picture is a DMU (class 41)
and it goes to Couvin (picture taken in station Charleroi Sud), on a line
that is not electrified.

In fact it is common, in Belgium, given the density of traffic, to have two
trains departing from the same track. What you see here is most probably
this class 41 DMU about to leave for Couvin, and then the Desiro EMU
that will follow to Erquelinnes shortly afterwards. 

I think those two rolling stock classes have the same kind of coupler (GF+)
and at the same height, but there is no electric wiring compatibility between
the two so it could only be used for shunting or rescue moves with one of
the units dead.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

joshsam said:


> :Banana: The front of the trains looks badass I think, especially with that metal protector V shape in front. Is that for when the track are to deep in the snow?


Snow, but also rocks, cars, trucks, people, cows, sheep, etc. Basically, they're there to protect the equipment underneath the train.

I like the Desiro, but the comfort level isn't acceptable if you need to sit for more than 30 minutes in my opinion. Luckily, they're mainly used for local trains, so that shouldn't pose a problem.


As for the whole "bragging" thing: there are several things the Belgian Railways can show off with, but there are also several things that have been problematic for years (like tagging, delays and the aforementioned Brussels stations). Belgians generally aren't very proud people, so it'll be quite hard to form a correct picture of the country based on what you read on the internet if you just look at us Belgians


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I have a question: do they have plans to improve, rebuild or even demolish station Buda?


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Heh, getting to know such things from the NMBS or Infrabel is practically impossible. They depend a lot on political decisions and as you can imagine: those are very fickle.
Station Buda has lost a lot of commuters when the Renault factory right next to it got closed down. The companies that now use the buildings don't have as many personnel as before, so its usage declined a lot. I have no numbers, but I think it doesn't deserve to exist any more nowadays.

There was also word about closing it and building a new one some hundred metres further for the "UPlace" supermall project that is planned (if it gets all its approvals), but those are just rumours as far as I'm aware.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

joshsam said:


> Trains near Ghent:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is the line with the new "fancy" cantanary a highspeed track (or upgraded, like german AusBauStrecke?)? 
Could someone clarify?


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

da_scotty said:


> Is the line with the new "fancy" cantanary a highspeed track (or upgraded, like german AusBauStrecke?)?
> Could someone clarify?


No, it is "just" a viaduct that allows the railway lines to cross without the need for any switches. This allowed for a speed improvement from 60 km/h to 160 km/h, though this is purely theoretical considering all trains halt at Ghent.

It is true however that the catenary on the viaduct is of a better type than the one used for the tracks below. The one on the viaduct is of type "R3", which allows for speeds up to (and possibly above) 220 km/h. The type used on the lower tracks allows up to 160 km/h at most. Note however that in this case, the speed limit is still fixed at 160 km/h, most likely due to the tracks.
Source (Dutch)


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

da_scotty said:


> Is the line with the new "fancy" cantanary a highspeed track (or upgraded, like german AusBauStrecke?)?
> Could someone clarify?


ABS ? You could consider it like that, yes. We are there at the north exit
of Ghent in the direction of Brugge. This line is being widened from 2 to 4
tracks and the two center tracks will allow 200 km/h running. But this ultimate
goal is still many years away. The bridge is there to ease the traffic in the station
north track complex, which without this bridge would be saturated.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Some of the oldest stock still rolling: Don't know what series these are. Anyone knows?

This train is actually very comfortable with leather seats and all that... 








http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8396/8916169056_11bee5bccb_c.jpg









http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7447/8729003765_1bbed25b1c_c.jpg


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

That's an MS86, which is by far not the oldest rolling stock we've got  They were introduced between 1986 and 1991, so they're getting old, but they're not the oldest we've got. The oldest trains still in use (though they're being replaced by the Desiro trains) are the so-called classic trains. They've been built in a lot of series and it's a bit unclear which ones still run, but the oldest one I could find that is still running dates back to 1961 (though it was just a quick search I did).

Some other trains that you will most certainly recognise that are older than the MS86: MS75 and MS80.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Tanks for the infoè Id didn't know those models where older!

Yes I know they are being retired as we speak, that's why I didn't mention them

Adieu automotrice Classiques!

















http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8542/8679486071_98b13b0c5f_c.jpg









http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8255/8694502715_ce79697317_c.jpg









http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8114/8695746182_ea5e29976f_c.jpg


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

MS86 is currently being refurbished, aren't they?


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

I'm not certain whether they're really being refurbished, all I know for certain is that they are receiving a new paint job.

Scrap that, they are indeed undergoing a refurbishment. The whole interior is being replaced and the exterior gets a new paint job.
Pictures of the interior can be found here: http://www.hgbtf.net/viewtopic.php?p=176628#p176628
And this is the exterior:









(note: not my picture, not certain who to credit for it)


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

I like the new colorscheme, looks a lot better than the old brown one.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

3737 said:


> I like the new colorscheme, looks a lot better than the old brown one.


I've got nothing against the grey and dark blue combination, I like that. But the yellow front doesn't fit in, in my opinion. The previous livery looked nice with the yellow bar around the lights and the smaller bars under it. I'm not sure how to explain it, but I liked that.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

The Yellow makes it look...


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

da_scotty said:


> The Yellow makes it look...
> 
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> Haha, indeed! The resemblance is stunning :lol:


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## Axelferis (Jan 18, 2008)

Nergens said:


> Have you ever been to Antwerp Central? (since 2008)


show me please


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Axelferis said:


> show me please


It's not that hard to find pictures of it yourself 
But here you've got a few links:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Antwerpen-Centraal&tbm=isch
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Antwerpen-Centraal


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## willele (Jul 15, 2005)

joshsam said:


> Tanks for the infoè Id didn't know those models where older!
> 
> Yes I know they are being retired as we speak, that's why I didn't mention them
> 
> ...


uahooooo !!,, Super!!!, is better than fyria but also the velaro db 407!!!


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

Axelferis said:


> show me please











http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4670617145_18b40c43ab_b.jpg









http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4143/4748637516_6b5cbea993_b.jpg









http://www.flickr.com/photos/vdb-vdb/3080575720/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/anvifo/5328645128/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/mhw/2668024277/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8438439906/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliang2006/3868534633/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/fsimages/6694148065/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/wiliam/5129993106/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/nogood/8672918092/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/chris1971/7944409184/sizes/l/in/photostream/
^^ Starting to become a familiar sight


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

The only station I know where there are trains on 3 different levels (not counting subways or tramways). Are there others ? Japan may be ?


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Amsterdam Sloterdijk Railway station? And, although you can dispute the line between railway/subway. Some RER stations in Paris.

Is Berlin Hauptbahnhoff not on 3 levels as well?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Berlin Hauptbahnhof has two levels: east/west and S-Bahn on +2, and north/south on -2. The floors inbetween are for shops and services (such as ticket vending).


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Ah, worth a try!


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> Berlin Hauptbahnhof has two levels: east/west and S-Bahn on +2, and north/south on -2. The floors inbetween are for shops and services (such as ticket vending).


U55 platform is on a lower level.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> U55 platform is on a lower level.


Yes. But I asked, 3 levels, counting only heavy rail, not subways or tramways.
If you count those, Antwerp has 5 levels (tramways in surface and underground).


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

MarcVD said:


> Yes. But I asked, 3 levels, counting only heavy rail, not subways or tramways.
> If you count those, Antwerp has 5 levels (tramways in surface and underground).


In station Diamant (which is the "pre-metro" station next to Antwerpen-Centraal) the tracks are even stacked on top of each other, so you could count 3 levels of trams. But now we're just being silly.


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## Axelferis (Jan 18, 2008)

impressive station :uh:
i underestimated the level of this station.
i love the modern extension kay:


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

What is special about Antwerp is that the 3 different levels are directly on top of each other and that they are in the same direction.

For Tokyo Station I can identify 4 different levels, but the platforms of one of the tunnel are located right underneath the station square. The other tunnel level is located a couple hundred meters south of the part of the station that is above ground. 

Shibuya Station is also 4 levels, but also not directly on top of each other. And 2 levels are actually the points where heavy rail lines "officially" continue as a metro line.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

Overview of some of the (future) renovated stations:

*Brugge*:

















http://www.flickr.com/photos/kristof_acke/4575950089/sizes/l/in/photostream/









http://www.flickr.com/photos/kristof_acke/4576596028/sizes/l/in/photostream/

*Knokke*:









*Kortrijk*:









Proposed new station for Kortrijk:

















*Blankenberge*:









*Oostende*:

























*Gent*:


















*Roeselare*:









*Sint-Niklaas*:









*Antwerp*:
(see above)

*Mechelen*:


















*Leuven*:




































*Liège*:




































*Namur*:


















*Charleroi*:









*Mons*:


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Mons looks amazing.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

All of them do!


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## Mr_Dru (Dec 15, 2008)

For me Belgium has the nicest classic (Antwerp) and modern (Liége) stations of the Benelux countries.


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## Axelferis (Jan 18, 2008)

ambition program of modernization.

But what i don't like for Liege one for example is it is too opened to the wind and cold in winter hno:

and some other projects like kortrijk follow this path


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Axelferis said:


> ambition program of modernization.
> 
> But what i don't like for Liege one for example is it is too opened to the wind and cold in winter hno:
> 
> and some other projects like kortrijk follow this path


I think it has to do with making operations cheaper by not requiring them to have extensive ventilation system (fire safety)


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## Silly_Walks (Aug 23, 2010)

Mr_Dru said:


> For me Belgium has the nicest classic (Antwerp) and modern (Liége) stations of the Benelux countries.


I'm from a Benelux country and I think I have to agree.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Silly_Walks said:


> I'm from a Benelux country and I think I have to agree.


I think Rotterdam Centraal is the best-looking Dutch station (when they finish the final touches) and Liege is the most beautiful Belgian station indeed.

I really don't get why people like Antwerpen Centraal. It is an ok-station from aesthetic viewpoint, though the infrastructure placement is interesting.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> I really don't get why people like Antwerpen Centraal. It is an ok-station from aesthetic viewpoint, though the infrastructure placement is interesting.


Different people, different tastes. Somehow Antwerp seems to please quite a few people in how it combines the old and the modern parts.

I'm personally looking forward to how Mechelen is going to look. I've used that station for years and it certainly deserves a make-over. The works there are slowly starting up, so I've got a lot to look forward to


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

While I don't understand economic times are not the best, something I don't get is why doesn't SNCB perform some very cheap and very basic maintenance on its key stations.

For instance, at Gare d Bruxelles Midi there are a lot of old telephone posts that haven't been used in years. They are empty boxes rotting away. Shouldn't cost more than 300 euros to remove them and throw in the trash! There are also some basic paint job that could greatly improve the looks of certain staircases and waiting areas.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Economic times have always been pretty much the same for the NMBS, it's the one excuse they can't claim (won't stop them though). It's all about (wrong) priorities and budgets, usually due to political meddling. The Brussels stations have been gravely neglected for years and I'm not expecting any improvements there any time soon, sadly enough. I seem to recall a story where the Government of Brussels refused to participate in the cost of modernizing the stations...

In Vilvoorde, a few kilometres further on, the roofs over the platforms haven't been painted for more than a decade, resulting in rust and rot. Now they had to put the supports in concrete to make sure that the roof wouldn't collapse on itself hno: At least there it's certain that the station will be undergoing modernisation works, we just don't know exactly when.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> For instance, at Gare d Bruxelles Midi there are a lot of old telephone posts that haven't been used in years. They are empty boxes rotting away. Shouldn't cost more than 300 euros to remove them and throw in the trash! There are also some basic paint job that could greatly improve the looks of certain staircases and waiting areas.


There is a program of modernization of the station Brussels South almost 
ready to start. But it requires to shut down some tracks for a while, which
is not that simple : Brussels South accommodates more than 1000 trains per
day, and during the peak hours doing with less tracks will be difficult.

So the first thing they need to do is to change the track usage pattern. For
the time being, east-side tracks are more used because all 3 main lines arrive
on this side. To change this, approaches of the station from the south are 
being re-worked, notably for the line from Ghent, which will be shifted to the
west side of the station. Once that is done (it will still need a couple of years)
the refurbishment of the station itself will start.

In the mean time, pretexting the refurbishment program awaiting to start,
normal maintenance works have been cut or reduced, because the railway
management sees that as a waste of money, that could be better used 
elsewhere. Not necessarily a bad decision, provided that the refurbishment
will indeed start as scheduled. If it is still delayed (it should have started
already, we are years late) we will indeed start seeing things collapsing...

On the other hand, the modernization of Brussels Central is finished, and
at Brussels North they are about to start.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

MarcVD said:


> On the other hand, the modernization of Brussels Central is finished,


Yeah, we all know the "renovated" Brussels Central station:









^^ Use of all sorts of materials, black walls, power lines on the ceiling,... The only good thing about the so-called "renovation" of Brussels Central is the floor with the shops. The platform level is still awful.


This is how a MODERN underground trainstation looks like:











> and at Brussels North they are about to start.


As far as I know there are -again- no plans to renovate the old-fashioned platforms, am I right?









hno:

The Brussels trainstations are a national disgrace.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

I recon that. How hard can it be to come up with a fixed plan to demolish those vile concrete station platforms and put some light metal and glass work over them.

North (and actually also south) station looks worse than Eastern European trainstation.
Oh yes and that auwfull central. Bad lighting, dark, open concrete ceilings, old dirty marble everywhere. It looks unsafe, it feels unsafe and the plaforms and hallways are dirty most of times hno:

The only thing I like about central is the main hall. They can keep that and demolish the rest.

YIKES!









http://www.fotoklubsab.eu/Wedstrijd...0120319-MBEV-Brussel centraalstation 2032.jpg



Brussels South: Is that supposed to be a modern station for the international travellers: CREEPS
Also look how dirty the roof is allready, maintanance ZERO









http://www.raretrack.com/050805be/050805be01_brussel.jpg

Yes real glorious, afther 4 platforms this auwfull roof just stops and only some trusses stick over to the next platforms. What? They ran out of money? :bash:








http://imgec.trivago.com/uploadimages/93/13/9313086_l.jpeg








http://static3.7sur7.be/static/photo/2012/9/15/4/20121031160034/media_xll_5289514.jpg

The other platforms just transport you back to USSR 1970 hno:
At least they made efford to at least paint some of them last year and put some new stones on the platforms.









http://upload.spoorpunt.nl/upload/p1430706_516.jpg


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Brussels South station, the old platforms before the paintjob last year. Can you believe this stayed like that untill 2012?:

*What's this? Ukriane? Albania? *
*Ohno that's true even the main railway stations in Bulgaria look better than this.*

All these pictures where taken in 2011 and 2012!!!!










http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gN1qwOfqTpA/TdS3uKBCdVI/AAAAAAAAEx0/btyowqvAONQ/s1600/DSC_5038_2.JPG









http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8438/7989008756_402f657ed7_c.jpg









http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8199/8227963000_b66ab55938_c.jpg









http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6210/6136575083_1998958938_z.jpg









http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6184/6137126078_5679e2ccb8_z.jpg









http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6193/6137134132_47d5671975_z.jpg









http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6122/5971405938_be90067618_z.jpg









http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7227/7156724938_b06878c533_c.jpg









http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8152/7303719590_e85755ba9a_c.jpg



*Ow yes look at major change in 2013:*
Paint on the roofs of the platforms! We should give the NMBS/SNCB a frigging applause!









http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8228/8506642747_519c9ffa45_c.jpg


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## Phoenyxar (Mar 4, 2012)

joshsam said:


> Yes real glorious, afther 4 platforms this auwfull roof just stops and only some trusses stick over to the next platforms.


I actually really like that new roof, it has soms "new art nouveau" feeling. Although some maintenance wouldn't hurt.

Not going to express me about the rest of the platforms though, the images speak for themselves.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Phoenyxar said:


> I actually really like that new roof, it has soms "new art nouveau" feeling. Although some maintenance wouldn't hurt.


I feel the same about that roof. It feels spacious, lets through a decent amount of light and it's better than just having a roof over the platforms only (so without roof over the tracks).


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Thermo said:


> Yeah, we all know the "renovated" Brussels Central station
> ^^ Use of all sorts of materials, black walls, power lines on the ceiling,... The only good thing about the so-called "renovation" of Brussels Central is the floor with the shops. The platform level is still awful.


There is not much one can do about it however. Also don't forget that Brussel Centaal is a commuter station. I don't think all Barcelona Rodalies stations are **** and span....

Barcelona Sants is nice, but there are a lot of other things wrong with it.

As to Brussel Noord: I hope they restore it to the way is was in the 50ies, but with the addition of elevators. With a fesh coat of paint it actually is quite nice.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> There is a program of modernization of the station Brussels South almost
> ready to start. But it requires to shut down some tracks for a while, which
> is not that simple : Brussels South accommodates more than 1000 trains per
> day, and during the peak hours doing with less tracks will be difficult.
> ...


Actually trains from Gent always could access the Western tracks tracks. I used to travel on peak hour train from Gent to Brussel that arrived in the then still existing terminal tracks to the west of track 1 that got removed when the Eurostar terminal was build. 
At the moment this is not possible because line 50A/1 is partly out of service. See:
http://www.infrabel.be/sites/default/files/documents/drr_c-04-cart_tech_9700_2.pdf

But I guess that as soon as the parital quadrupling of line 50A is finished trains from Gent will be able to run to the lower numbered tracks again.

The plans for Brussel Zuid that I have seen involve the demolishing of the "new" canopy over tracks 1/6 as well. Lets hope by then that a separate Eurostar terminal won't be needed anymore...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> Actually trains from Gent always could access the Western tracks tracks.


Yes I know. But that station approach was extremely slow so it was only used as a relief when the fast tracks could not absorb all the traffic, during
peak hours. 



K_ said:


> But I guess that as soon as the parital quadrupling of line 50A is finished trains from Gent will be able to run to the lower numbered tracks again.


Yes. The new center fast tracks will end up there. That will allow all fast 
trains coming from the coast to stay on the west side of Brussels all the way,
and then go straight on the new fast line to Liege, without having to cross
any other track.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Thermo said:


> Yeah, we all know the "renovated" Brussels Central station: Use of all sorts of materials, black walls, power lines on the ceiling,... The only good thing about the so-called "renovation" of Brussels Central is the floor with the shops. The platform level is still awful.


For a commuter station, what they have done is largely sufficient.
I prefer seeing the money spent in infrastructure and rolling stock
rather than in prestigious buildings with no useful purpose.

Comparing Brussels Central with a station that has long-distance and 
international trafic is unfair, imho.

On the other hand, how many cities of one million inhabitants do offer a
train service of more than one thousand trains a day ? There is always a
limit in the money you can spend, so choices must be made...

And regarding Brussels South, I agree it's awful, but it's far from being
an exception in Western Europe... I'e been to London a few years ago,
one always sees pictures of the Eurostar station, which is indeed one
of the prettiest stations in today's world, but all others I have seen
(notably Paddington, just a stone throw away) looked at least as
derelict.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> On the other hand, how many cities of one million inhabitants do offer a
> train service of more than one thousand trains a day ? There is always a
> limit in the money you can spend, so choices must be made...


Well Olten (10 tracks) has about 1700 trains a day... Bern (12 tracks) about 1400, Winterthur (9 tracks) 1200, and the absolute champion: Zürich (26 tracks) over 2000. In Zürich they had two tracks out of service most of the time the last couple of years in order to build a new underground extension...
But then again, Switzerland is in a class all of its own when it comes to railways.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> Well Olten (10 tracks) has about 1700 trains a day... Bern (12 tracks) about 1400, Winterthur (9 tracks) 1200, and the absolute champion: Zürich (26 tracks) over 2000. In Zürich they had two tracks out of service most of the time the last couple of years in order to build a new underground extension...
> But then again, Switzerland is in a class all of its own when it comes to railways.


Well most of the 1000+ trains that serve Brussels South with its 22 tracks 
also serve Brussels North with 12 tracks only, and Brussels Central with
6 tracks only, the only notable exception being the TGVs and the E* that
terminate at South. This is more comparable with the stations of Bern, Olten 
& Winterthur cited by K. Zurich I agree is another matter.

The big difference between South and the other two is that at South, many
trains terminate, while at Central and North, it's only through transit. With
some dwell time at North and not at all on Central. Trains that terminate on
the North side of Brussels do that at Schaerbeek.

Getting 1000+ trains daily over the 6 tracks at Central must be at least 
close to a world record.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

Schiphol comes close with 700 trains per day at least with 6 tracks in the station and 4 in the tunnel.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> Well most of the 1000+ trains that serve Brussels South with its 22 tracks
> also serve Brussels North with 12 tracks only, and Brussels Central with
> 6 tracks only, the only notable exception being the TGVs and the E* that
> terminate at South.


It does however show that the bottleneck is Brussel Centraal, not Zuid. It was a big mistake to build that with only 6 tracks. It should have had 12, just like Noord.


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

A tunnel with 12 tracks? I think they should be happy that the citytunnel was build with 6 tracks. In a lot of countries nymbism would shouwld these kinds of plans and say we ant 2 tracks maximum, but we prefer none.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> It does however show that the bottleneck is Brussel Centraal, not Zuid. It was a big mistake to build that with only 6 tracks. It should have had 12, just like Noord.


Built in the 50ies, with an envisoned trafic of about 400 trains per day.
I don't think we can say it was a mistake. It can now handle more than
twice the original requirements. Who could plan a transport infrastructure
for more than 50 years ahead today ?

And yes Bruxelles Central (90% of Brussels' inhabitants speak french, btw) is 
a bottleneck today as a through traffic station, but Bruxelles Midi as a 
terminating and long distance traffic station is too. Only Bruxelles Nord is fine
today. But if trains have to terminate there too, because of the saturation
of the North-South link, then Bruxelles Nord will also become a bottleneck.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

MarcVD said:


> Bruxelles Central (90% of Brussels' inhabitants speak french, btw)


Please, don't encourage people to start yet another completely pointless language discussion here. It would ruin an interesting topic. Both Brussel and Bruxelles are official names of the city, so both should be fine for everybody. And seeing we're talking in English here, Brussels should obviously not upset anyone either.

The North station will probably never be used as a terminus station (seeing we've got Schaarbeek for such connections), so that problem should never arise. It is true that in the 50's, the engineers were smart enough to look ahead far enough and to foresee the possible growth of passengers. You can see the foresight as well in the metro tunnels made in Antwerp and Charleroi. One could say they went a bit overboard there, but some of those tunnels are starting to become useful now.

The North-South connection scarred Brussels gravely as it split the city in two for quite some time when it was being built, resulting in a trauma that a part of the population still hasn't gotten over. Therefore talking about new tunnels brings up the memories from back then in some people. I think that the two parallel tracks to the east and west should be used more and as such alleviate some stress from the tunnel. But whether that'll be enough to stop the need for an additional tunnel, I do not know.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

> The newly-constructed twin tunnels under the Scheldt River and Kanaaldok are about six kilometres long, which makes them the longest rail tunnels in Belgium.


The Liefkenshoek is linked to the Beveren tunnel, so the underground part is about 8 km long.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/liefkenshoek-rail-link/

The Liefkenshoek part alone is shorter than the Soumagne tunnel (6.5 km long).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soumagne_Tunnel


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

I've just found out that SNCB subsidiary InterFerryBoats is shutting down the relatively youthful Antwerp Main Hub Intermodal Terminal. 

Please see Nieuwsblad Transport. 

Apparently it is the elimination of state financial support which is causing the closure. It's a shame, given the size and age of the terminal, but at the end of the day I guess it's been too expensive to run, given the traffic volume available.


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## Busfotodotnl (Mar 18, 2009)

Today was the last day of the red-coloured Classical EMU's of NMBS/SNCB. EMU 204 was the last one in service. They will be wrecked.


NMBS 204 by Durk Houtsma., on Flickr


NMBS 204 by Durk Houtsma., on Flickr


Klaar voor de sloop in Stockem by Durk Houtsma., on Flickr


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Yes, and right after that, the Electric locomotives series 20 will be the next 
ones to go. Only 3 of them remain in service, they should be stopped for the
next schedule change in December. They were the world most powerful 3kV
DC locomotives, and the first ones to use a chopper.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

A tender has been opened at the belgian railways for the construction of 1000 
to 1200 new double deck carriages, organized in EMUs of 4 or 6 cars.
Architecture should be in the form of one power carriage + 3 or 5 trailers, 
somewhat similar to the mDDM + double deck carriages in the Netherlands.
3 kV= + 25 kV~, 145.000 seats. 200 km/h. Estimated value 3 G€...

https://enot.publicprocurement.be/enot-war/preViewNotice.do?noticeId=164875
http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:439531-2013:TEXT:FR:HTML


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## Momo1435 (Oct 3, 2005)

Interesting tender.

I can't think of any double deck EMUs in this specific configuration that are capable of doing 200 km/h. Especially with the 6 car sets the motorcar will have to be very powerful to reach such a speed with a normal acceleration rate. I very much doubt that this will be possible with just 1 powered double deck end car. But I will let the industry surprise me, we'll see how this will turn out.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

^^ Maybe some non-major player might come up with a solution.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Momo1435 said:


> Interesting tender.
> 
> I can't think of any double deck EMUs in this specific configuration that are capable of doing 200 km/h. Especially with the 6 car sets the motorcar will have to be very powerful to reach such a speed with a normal acceleration rate. I very much doubt that this will be possible with just 1 powered double deck end car. But I will let the industry surprise me, we'll see how this will turn out.


If class 13 pulls 6 double decker carrages at 200km/h, certainly a newly build EMU can do so?

Class 13 doing nearly 200km/h on the line between Liège and Leuven at 2:42 the camera zooms in on the speed. Normally this train is a double deck train.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> ^^ Maybe some non-major player might come up with a solution.


You can for example think about a solution similar to the mDDM sets that
are used in the Netherlands. BBB configuration, in order to increase adherence
and limit weight under 20 t/axle, and lower floor reserved to traction 
equipment, so that enough traction power can be fitted. SNCB won't object to
that, provided that the requirement of 4,3 passengers per meter of train is 
reached in a 6 car configuration...

Also, the requirement is to be able to make 4 cars or 6 cars configurations.
May be the 200 km/h will be reached with 4 cars configs only.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

joshsam said:


> If class 13 pulls 6 double decker carrages at 200km/h, certainly a newly build EMU can do so?


Careful... The M6 rakes going 200 km/h on L2 are made of 10 coaches with 
one HLE 18 at each end. So that's 5 cars for each loc, not 6. And the 
maximum speed has already been reduced from 200 to 170 because of
passenger discomfort problems. Looks like the car suspensions allow for too
ample lateral movement, which are badly felt at the upper deck...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

joshsam said:


> Class 13 doing nearly 200km/h on the line between Liège and Leuven at 2:42 the camera zooms in on the speed. Normally this train is a double deck train.


Nope... Class 13 locs never pulled M6 cars on the L2. M6 cars have never been 
allowed on the L2 until a few weeks ago, and for the last year, only Class 18
locs have been used for this service. If this is a class 13 (and I believe it is),
the cars behind can only be I11.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

OKey so I'm wrong


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Are there any plans to re-open FR-BE railway links at Quevy, Athu, Erquelinnes or Heer-Argimont?


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

TER Nord-Pas-de-Calais was the train company using the line, NMBS had a deal with them in 2008 but the line had a very low usage and was dismissed. I don't see the NMBS operating any trains there in the future and I don't think SNCF is willing to spend any more money on a low usage line in Belgium...

The line is working however, but only for freight trains...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Which of those lines are working? I mentioned 4...


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

i was talking about Quevy.

Erquelinnes is also used for freight.

Heer-Argimont is overgrown with trees and I don't think will be never used again.


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## Baron Hirsch (Jan 31, 2009)

Momo1435 said:


> Interesting tender.
> 
> I can't think of any double deck EMUs in this specific configuration that are capable of doing 200 km/h. Especially with the 6 car sets the motorcar will have to be very powerful to reach such a speed with a normal acceleration rate. I very much doubt that this will be possible with just 1 powered double deck end car. But I will let the industry surprise me, we'll see how this will turn out.


Would not Stadler's KISS (formerly known as DOSTO) fit the specifics exactly? The version produced for the Westbahn company is capable of 200 kmh. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_Dosto


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> Are there any plans to re-open FR-BE railway links at Quevy, Athu, Erquelinnes or Heer-Argimont?


There are certainly no plans for that today.

Quevy and Erquelinnes are both used for freight, but all passenger activities
disappeared, some years ago already for Quevy (that was operated by SNCF)
and one year ago for Erquelinnes. It might come back, but it certainly is not 
the priority. However, in the last years, the only service that could practically 
be conceived was to the first station after the border, because of absence of
adequate rolling stock. Now that SNCB has acquired plenty of 3/25 EMUs, it
could be possible to re-instate services like Mons-Maubeuge or Charleroi-
Maubeuge, which might be much more successfull than Aulnoye-Quevy or
Charleroi-Jeumont. There are also talks for Mons-Valenciennes through 
Quiévrain.

For the two others, there are much less chances. The entire line South of 
Dinant is out of service since 1987 and would need a complete re-lay to be
used again. Population in the haute Meuse valley is quite sparse, and would
not justify the costs. There were only 4 trains per day on this line when it
closed, and with very low loadings.

And at Athus, there is no track any more between Athus and the french
network. There is a connection Athus-Aubange (entirely in Belgium),
Athus -Rodange (CFL), Aubange - Rodange, Mont-Saint-Martin (SNCF) - Rodange,
and Aubange - Mont-Saint-Martin ; but no connection Athus - Mont-Saint-Martin. 
It used to exist, but was lifted 20 years ago, when the connection Aubange-
Rodange was established : the two would have crossed each other almost at 
right angle, a very common track configuration in America but very rare in 
Europe...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

The six latest class 20 electric locomotives have been retired from active
service on december 31st evening, after a last day of use on some IC
services between Brussels and Luxemburg. Some pictures of this last
day at http://www.wallorail.be/actu2013/in...circule-actuellement-avec-les-ic-2127-et-2108 .
This class of locomotives was quite emblematic for the belgian railways :
among the first large size DC locomotives using thyristor choppers, the most
powerful 3 kV DC loco of its time... Its retirement kind of closes the era of
large CC electric locomotives in western Europe.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

Storm in Belgium.

_"Ladies and gentlemen, the train to Bruges will have a delay of 30 minutes"_


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

The NMBS/SNCB is currently doing some "roadshows" in the several provinces of Belgium explaining its plans for the new train schedule that'll come into action in December.

The plan contains a re-branding of the InterRegio (IR) trains to either the InterCity (IC) or Local (L) label, depending on the amount of stops the train makes. The plan should take into account the increase in passengers over the past few years (+60% since 1995) and should take into account the new rails that have become available since 1998 (when the previous blueprint for the plans was made).

As it is currently almost impossible to stick to the schedule in the North-South connection in Brussels due to more people getting off and on the trains, 2 extra minutes in total have been added to each train driving through the connection. As such, the plan will reduce the overall commercial speed of the train service with 1%. Additionally, more trains will drive during peak hours and less during off-peak hours. Sadly enough this sometimes means that the first or last train of the day will get scrapped (which has happened before over the past few years).

The main reason for the decrease in service for some people is tied to politicians: the amount of train kilometres must remain stable as the subsidies will be lowered slightly and each extra train kilometre costs money.

The slideshows used during the roadshows can be found here, currently only 2 presentations are there as only two roadshows have been done (Oost-Vlaanderen - Dutch, Luxemburg (the province) - French)


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

I bet they won't do one in Limburg won't they.....:bash:


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

They will have a roadshow in every province, Limburg included. I wouldn't trust too much on the news that most connections will take on average 10 minutes extra. That comes from the same source that claimed that the train from De Panne will take a lot longer to get to Brussels, completely neglecting that passengers can actually gain time compared to now by changing trains in Ghent.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the new plan would indeed be worse for Limburg.


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## Mediarail.be (May 20, 2013)

Punctuality today reflect the plan of 1998 and nobody would leave things as they are. The Brussels Junction has achieved his maximum capacity with 86/90 trains per hour (six tracks). There will be no other extra trains. I work myself for this Junction and the extern grill of Brussels-Midi. The extra traffic can be diverted only by the line 26 and can reaches Etterbeek and Schuman and then Schaerbeek or the national airport via new Josaphat tunnel.

For the country, the architecture IC/IR was a hourly copy-past of the old architecture "Direct" and "Semi-direct" at the time of our grand-parents. Contrary to that many newspapers say, many people today go to station by car or bike, for 5 to 10 km. For this reason, many little station are not so used, except for schoolboys morning and afternoon. 

Many people get all excited with the future plan of SNCB. For what ? It's a draft and many changes would be adjusted before, and after december. I'm remember in february 1999 that many changes already were being undertaken to improve the new plan after only two months, which was too generous. Today, we see many municipal councillors who speak and gesticulate everywhere in the medias. We don't forget the elections for next 25 may....


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

^^ Oh indeed, I hadn't even made the connection with the upcoming elections  Generally speaking, the plan seems to be an improvement over what we currently have.

Also, the roadshow for Limburg took place last week and the slides showed that the train from Hasselt to Brussels will take 12 minutes less than it currently does. To Antwerp 8 minutes can be gained if one of the peak trains is used. Otherwise it'd take 10 additional minutes to change trains in Aarschot. (Source of the presentation)


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## Mediarail.be (May 20, 2013)

I've read presentations : today three online. An inconvenient truth is that 80% take railways at rush hours ! That confirm that railways are the fifth wheel of the carriage and not the first choice. It's a big problem for the dream of the modal shift....


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Not necessarily... Most people also drive during the rush hour. Not because they want to, but because that is the time they need to travel at.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

I don't see why this information affects the idea of a modal shift in any way? Modal shift doesn't mean to shift ALL car traffic to other forms of transportation, it just tries to move a part of it. The idea behind modal shift is to put people and goods on the type of transport that is best for them and for everybody else. The problem is that people usually default to using the car to get somewhere, no matter which other options are available. Often just walking or using a bicycle is sufficient to get the job done and for some trips it may even be faster. The idea behind modal shift doesn't say that using a car is wrong, but just tries to make people consider another modes of transport as well.

The fact that 80% of all passengers take the train during rush hour is basically a normal reflection of the peak in people moving around. It's exactly at this point that public transport should play a vital role to handle the massive amount of traffic.

Also, the presentations of the plans for Hainaut and Antwerpen have become available at http://www.belgianrail.be/nl/corporate/Presse/Vervoersplan_2014.aspx


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Two days ago, the presentation of the new transport plan for the Brussels region was shown. Here are some interesting images from that presentation (can be found here):

An overview of all train lines in Belgium as of the end of the year (can't find an image with better quality, sadly enough):









An overview of the daily train passengers in the Brussels area. Especially Brussel-Kapellekerk/Bruxelles-Chapelle with its 80 passengers a day stands out in a negative way (the stations with around 80 passengers were still quite new when that data was compiled in 2012):









The presentation also contains the investment plans for the coming years in the Brussels stations:

Brussels North (€50 million): new entrances, renovation of the underpasses, parking, better facilities for cyclists, lifts and escalators.
Brussels South: presentation of several plans in the pipeline, but I'd be surprised if they'd actually get executed in this decade...
Brussels Schuman: enlargement of the station so part of the station is visibly located just above the metro line (currently under construction)
Etterbeek: new station building with a new pedestrian bridge connecting the two universities with the train station. Especially important seeing that Delta station will get less trains in the future, while Etterbeek will get more (both stations are quite close to the VUB and ULB):


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

I'm surprised that all the rail transport axis in Brussels are more or less aligned north-south. Isn't there any travel in the east-west direction? Would a new line from say Brussels South via Luxemburg, Schuman to Merode make sense?


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## Mediarail.be (May 20, 2013)

M-NL said:


> I'm surprised that all the rail transport axis in Brussels are more or less aligned north-south. Isn't there any travel in the east-west direction? Would a new line from say Brussels South via Luxemburg, Schuman to Merode make sense?


The problem of Brussels is a city cut in two parts. The western part is poor and does not have a high concentration of offices. By contrast, the eastern part is covered by a large area of offices, especially on the side of the Schuman and the “Gare du Luxembourg” stations (European square…), + underground between Gare du Midi to Rogier via Louise and Arts-Loi stations. Railway line L50 (not L50A) through Jette and Bockstael interested especially traffic from Aalst, Kortrijk or Ghent ... even to Schuman and Luxemburg. In addition, three main Brussels universities are in the East (VUB, ULB and UCL at underground station Alma, + high schools like La Cambre and many others…). The evidence is that we get commuters where they are going, not where politicians dream.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

The city has an extensive subway/light-rail network though.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Whats the story behind this photo?


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## JanVL (Jun 25, 2012)

^^ a fireman posted this on his fb/twitter, joking that his firehoses were now protected against any trains. But it turned out that railway was temporarly closed.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

M-NL said:


> I'm surprised that all the rail transport axis in Brussels are more or less aligned north-south. Isn't there any travel in the east-west direction? Would a new line from say Brussels South via Luxemburg, Schuman to Merode make sense?


Although not immediately visible, Brussels lies in a valley which is more or less
North-South oriented. So this is also the most natural orientation for railway lines.

Also in Brussels you have the (in)famous north-south junction, which 
concentrates most of the through traffic. At the time this was made,
nobody anticipated that the 6 tracks of this junction could ever become saturated...
So the lines converging to Brussels were almost all redirected towards 
Brussels North or Brussels South.

One can indeed see that the trains to Luxemburg make a large detour 
between Brussels South and Etterbeek. A direct line between those two
stations would probably make sense, but it will never be built : the trauma
caused by the construction of the North-South junction (which lasted for
half a century) is still quite vivid in people's memories, and nobody, politicians
included, is ready to live through that one more time - even if today's
tunneling techniques allow to do that with much less disturbances nowadays.

In the east-west direction, there is a reasonably performant subway line 
which fills the gap left by the railway. Metro lines have also been quite
problematic to build in Brussels, because the city is essentially built on a tick 
layer of sand, which is quite difficult to tunnel through, because of its natural
unstability.

Today, with its 1000 trains per day, the north-south junction is saturated so
a new tunnel in the east of Brussels is getting readied. To have this project 
accepted by the local population, it has been decided tu build this tunnel 
under an existing road tunnel, so the local nuisances, both for construction 
and for future operation, are reduced to a minimum.


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## Mediarail.be (May 20, 2013)

I have rapidly worked about the new Junction project. Summary : 2 x 3 tubes from Uccle (L124), Forest Audi (L96) and Anderlecht Petite Ile (L50A) which go to the Midi station at -80m under Fonsny avenue. They continue to Central station where a new station was proposed under the basements of Ravenstein building. 2 tubes go directly to Schuman station and Etterbeek, the 4 others continue to North Station and Schaerbeek, to join L36 and L25N. This project was of course refused due to his enormous cost...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

M-NL said:


> I'm surprised that all the rail transport axis in Brussels are more or less aligned north-south. Isn't there any travel in the east-west direction? Would a new line from say Brussels South via Luxemburg, Schuman to Merode make sense?


When railways were constructed in Belgium in the 19th century Brussels got two main stations: North and South. Both were terminal stations. Then after decades of planning and building they got joined by a through railway in the 50ies. 

The main metro axis is East-West though. And a Metro line from Brussel Zuid to Schumann is seriously being considered.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Glodenox said:


> An overview of the daily train passengers in the Brussels area. Especially Brussel-Kapellekerk/Bruxelles-Chapelle with its 80 passengers a day stands out in a negative way (the stations with around 80 passengers were still quite new when that data was compiled in 2012):


How are passengers counted? The numbers seem quite low. I live in a town of 130000, and our main station has about 250000 passengers a day. If Brussel Centraal has only about 56000 this can only mean that NMBS counts in a very different way from SBB...

I went to high school near Kapellekerk, and I do remember that when school was out we did fill the platform quite nicely. Certainly more than 80 boardings on the one train that left right after school finished...


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## Mediarail.be (May 20, 2013)

K_ said:


> a Metro line from Brussel Zuid to Schumann is seriously being considered.


A dream which exists since 60's : I have find a first idea (1969) in a history of TGV. A second idea was proposed end of 80's with "Eurometro". The last idea is the new Junction project as mentionned in a post above..


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

K_ said:


> How are passengers counted? The numbers seem quite low. I live in a town of 130000, and our main station has about 250000 passengers a day. If Brussel Centraal has only about 56000 this can only mean that NMBS counts in a very different way from SBB...[...]


I found this explanation on Wikipedia, not 100% whether it's still accurate, but at least it's something:


> De tellingen worden meestal uitgevoerd in de maand oktober: gedurende 9 opeenvolgende dagen (5 werkdagen en de 2 omliggende weekends) worden dan door het stations- en treinbegeleidingspersoneel visuele tellingen verricht. De methode bestaat erin het aantal in- en uitstappende reizigers te tellen in alle stations en stopplaatsen en dit voor alle treinen van het binnenlands verkeer. Het getal naast het kopje 'weekdag' slaat op het gemiddeld aantal opstappende (dus niet het aantal afstappende) reizigers op een weekdag (maandag, dinsdag, woensdag, donderdag en vrijdag opgeteld gedeeld door vijf), zaterdag en zondag staan apart vermeld.


Rough translation:


> The measurements usually take place in October: for 9 subsequent days (5 work days and the two surrounding weekends) personnel in the station and train conductors do visual counts. The method consists of counting the amount of boarding and alighting passengers for all trains of domestic nature. The number for the week day represents the average number of boarding passengers (so not the alighting passengers) on a week day (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday summed up divided by five), Saturday and Sunday are mentioned separately.


I *think* that the numbers on that map refer to the amount of non-international boarding passengers in a day on average for a week.

I wonder how your number can be so high. I presume everybody entering or leaving the station is counted?


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Here it is; the busiest stretch of railway in the Benelux:


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Glodenox said:


> I wonder how your number can be so high. I presume everybody entering or leaving the station is counted?


Actually SBB counts everyone entering or leaving a train... Passenger numbers serve mostly to decide about investment in stations, and there how "busy" a station is matters.


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## the Ludovico center (Jun 12, 2009)

Glodenox said:


> An overview of the daily train passengers in the Brussels area...


The West and Simonis train stations should shut down. 

It was stupid to open them while at the same time new metro line was opened (the line that goes up and down between the Laken/stadium and Midi). 

One of the other should have been don (but not both)


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Capellekerk also looks seldom used.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

the Ludovico center said:


> The West and Simonis train stations should shut down. It was stupid to open them while at the same time new metro line was opened (the line that goes up and down between the Laken/stadium and Midi). One of the other should have been don (but not both)


No. They should run more trains over that line. (And they should develop the area)
These stations have only just been opened. The general idea is that by running suburban trains over that line you free up slots in the Noord Zuid railway. Because of the good interchange possibilities that exist with the metro these trains are a good alternative for people who only take the train in to town to transfer to the metro.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> Capellekerk also looks seldom used.


Kapellekerk was a complete hellhole for many years too. Don't know if It changed since these video.






Here is a music video wich features the area's in and around the station:


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## the Ludovico center (Jun 12, 2009)

K_ said:


> No. They should run more trains over that line. (And they should develop the area)
> These stations have only just been opened. The general idea is that by running suburban trains over that line you free up slots in the Noord Zuid railway. Because of the good interchange possibilities that exist with the metro these trains are a good alternative for people who only take the train in to town to transfer to the metro.


That logic makes sense only if the NMBS/SNCB diverts trains away from the central tunnels.

In my opinion the solution to the central tunnel problem is one thing only: expand the Central Station. No, I don't mean destroy Brussels again and widen the station horizontally but I'm talking about vertical expansion (a second and possibly third floor UNDER the current 5 platforms). That is an unavoidable problem. Any other attempt will fail to solve this bottleneck.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

the Ludovico center said:


> That logic makes sense only if the NMBS/SNCB diverts trains away from the central tunnels.


They're not diverting trains, but they will be adding a lot of trains in the near future. Especially if the NMBS does the right thing and runs locals at least every 15 minutes on the lines to Brussel. But that needs vision, which is a bit lacking...



> In my opinion the solution to the central tunnel problem is one thing only: expand the Central Station. No, I don't mean destroy Brussels again and widen the station horizontally but I'm talking about vertical expansion (a second and possibly third floor UNDER the current 5 platforms). That is an unavoidable problem. Any other attempt will fail to solve this bottleneck.


Expanding the station in this way will take something like 20-30 years. Better integrating the railways with the metro, and making better use of the ring railway however is something that can be done now.


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## the Ludovico center (Jun 12, 2009)

K_ said:


> Expanding the station in this way will take something like 20-30 years.


Rogier square is under construction since 2005. If NMBS had started to work on Central Station in 2005, we would be halfway complete now (by your 20 year criteria).

One thing is for sure: doing nothing in the tunnel will never solve the tunnel problem. I suspect the future of Central Station will be that it will be downgraded (more and more trains will skip it - Already now the station has been declared "no go zone" for all international trains that used to go there in the past (including the Benelux IC)


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## Rail_Serbia (May 29, 2009)

....


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## Rail_Serbia (May 29, 2009)

Glodenox said:


> An overview of the daily train passengers in the Brussels area. Especially Brussel-Kapellekerk/Bruxelles-Chapelle with its 80 passengers a day stands out in a negative way (the stations with around 80 passengers were still quite new when that data was compiled in 2012):


I think that is without passengers with mouthly tickets, which usualy don't check the tickets.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Rail_Serbia said:


> I think that is without passengers with mouthly tickets, which usualy don't check the tickets.


I don't think so. Monthly tickets do get checked on board, just like regular tickets.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

the Ludovico center said:


> Rogier square is under construction since 2005. If NMBS had started to work on Central Station in 2005, we would be halfway complete now (by your 20 year criteria).
> 
> One thing is for sure: doing nothing in the tunnel will never solve the tunnel problem. I suspect the future of Central Station will be that it will be downgraded (more and more trains will skip it - Already now the station has been declared "no go zone" for all international trains that used to go there in the past (including the Benelux IC)


The Benelux train will continue to stop at Central and will additionally call at North as SNCB will integrate the Benelux into Belgian domestic services.


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

K_ said:


> I don't think so. Monthly tickets do get checked on board, just like regular tickets.


But then those figures become abysmal for many stations. An inner-city station with fewer than 1000 passengers a day is basically a mid-forest bus stop, transit-wise. :lol:


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Those numbers are composed from visual checks by the personnel during a week. They can probably be used to make a comparison between stations, but I think they're far from the truth.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Robi_damian said:


> But then those figures become abysmal for many stations. An inner-city station with fewer than 1000 passengers a day is basically a mid-forest bus stop, transit-wise. :lol:


That's why I wonder what they were actually counting. I boarded a train daily for several years at Kapellekerk, and my train alone already had more than 80 boarders.
There's a couple of schools nearby, although I doubt that the King's children take the train to get there...


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Do they have rehabilitation plans for stations Schaerbeek, Buda and Machelen?

They all look worn-down and station Buda looks to be on advanced decay around it.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have rehabilitation plans for stations Schaerbeek, Buda and Machelen?
> 
> They all look worn-down and station Buda looks to be on advanced decay around it.


None that I know of. Machelen isn't even visible on their plans. Buda hardly has any passengers and deserves to be closed in my opinion. Schaarbeek gets the big train museum they're building just next to the station building - but the station itself: haven't heard anything about it.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Belgium has some nice stations, but also a bunch of old, worn down stations that would blend in well in the Soviet Union. Two examples that come to mind are Brussels North (the platforms and corridor at least) and Antwerpen Luchtbal.

Stations that I really like are Antwerp Central and Liège-Guillemins. 

Other stations are "okay" but could do with a large refurbishment, e.g. Brussels South and Antwerpen Berchem. It doesn't have to be big, but simple things such as some fresh paint, new floor tiles, improved lighting, et cetera.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

last video: build a tunnel allready :nuts: I can allready immagine the daily traffic jam on that road!
It's also staying ridiculously long closed.

From the video:



> Deze overweg, gelegen in Lier, schijnt de drukste spoorwegovergang van België te zijn. De overweg zou iedere dag 216 keer sluiten en gemiddeld 10 uur en 48 minuten dicht zitten per dag. In deze 15 minuten lange video rijden 7 treinen voorbij en zit de overweg meer dan 12 minuten dicht.


translation:
This railroad crossing in the city of Lier is believed to be most busy railroad crossing in Belgium. The crossing closes 216 times and on average 10hours and 48 minutes every single day. In this 15 min video, 7 trains cross and the crossing is closed for little over 12 minutes.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Past monday a small train accident happened at Linkebeek, quite surprised to see that nobody has posted it here.

*16 injured in train accident

16 people were slightly injured when two trains collided at the station in the Flemish Brabant municipality of Linkebeek. The accident happened at around 1:30pm on Monday when a maintenance train collided with a passenger train that was on its way from the Walloon Brabant town of Braine l’Alleud to the East Flemish city of Aalst.*

The are currently no trains running between Brussels South and Braine-l’Alleud. The Belgian Railways spokeswoman Nathalie Pierard told the VRT that “Those wishing to travel between Linkebeek and Braine-l Alleud can take a TEC (Walloon public transport company bus) and those wishing to travel from Linkebeek to Brussels South can take busses provided by the Brussels public transport company MIVB”. TEC also provides scheduled bus services from Brussels South to Braine-l’Alleud.

Services between Braine l’Alleud and Charleroi are running normally. The latest information on delays and cancellations can be found on the railtime.be website.

Thomas Baeken of the company that maintains and manages Belgium’s rail infrastructure told journalists that "The maintenance train ran into the back of the passenger train. This was as low seed as the train was already breaking. The circumstance surround the accident are now been investigated.”

There were 41 people travelling on the passenger train. 16 of them were taken with minor injuries to three local hospitals. The remaining passengers were taken by bus to Brussels South Railway Station from where they were able to continue their journey.​http://deredactie.be/permalink/1.2137979

The probable cause of the accident is the grease of leaves that have fallen on the tracks. The first train apparently failed to halt at its scheduled stop in Linkebeek and then stopped. The maintenance train following failed to brake, even though the safety systems probably worked as intended and put the train in an emergency brake. None of this is confirmed though.


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## Koekskensmonster (Mar 24, 2008)

For those interested, I made a diagram showing all regular train services that will be active after the schedule change mid-December  feedback is always welcome.










Download the map via this link.


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## Benonie (Dec 21, 2005)

Impressive  Well done mate! :applause:


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## Phoenyxar (Mar 4, 2012)

Oh my Madoka... that's some fantastic work!


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## redstarcastles (Oct 1, 2013)

That is a wonderful diagram. What software did you use?


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## Koekskensmonster (Mar 24, 2008)

This is done entirely with Illustrator  the newest CC version brought some nice little features that really sped up my work.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Koekskensmonster said:


> For those interested, I made a diagram showing all regular train services that will be active after the schedule change mid-December  feedback is always welcome.[/URL].


Absolutely wonderful. Two questions :
- Do you mind if I cross-post your work in other forums ?
- Would you do also the diagram for the week-end network ?

Regarding the contents, are you really sure that there will be two relations 
per hour on the line between Charleroi and Couvin ? That seems so unlikely
to me...


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I have a question, just to confirm it: according to this diagram, stations Simonis, Ouest and Chapelle will only have 1 train per hour per direction calling there? Isn't this a vast underutilization of stations in the center of Bruxelles metro?

Second question: why are they calling some services as RER is they have only 16-18 runs per day? Isn't a service with 60min interval too infrequent to be called "RER"? I'm not trying to start a fight and nip-ticking on nomenclature, just questioning why have they created this separate category if its patterns (distance, frequency) are similar to others....


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

The whole RER-system has been dumbed down greatly by the SNCB and the politicians in charge. In reality, they're just regular local trains running indeed.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> I have a question, just to confirm it: according to this diagram, stations Simonis, Ouest and Chapelle will only have 1 train per hour per direction calling there? Isn't this a vast underutilization of stations in the center of Bruxelles metro?


Chapelle and Congrès are on the North-South link and not that much used.
SNCB would like to close them because they eat up too much capacity on
this link which is too heavily used already. But it will be difficult for political
reasons. So they keep it open but with as less trains stopping there as
possible.

For Simonis and Ouest, it's the other way around. There is a lot of potential,
there are great plans for re-developping the area around those stations so the
infrastructure is being made ready for traffic expansion, but for the time
being the demand is not that big, so the offer is kept minimal. But it will change...



Suburbanist said:


> Second question: why are they calling some services as RER is they have only 16-18 runs per day? Isn't a service with 60min interval too infrequent to be called "RER"? I'm not trying to start a fight and nip-ticking on nomenclature, just questioning why have they created this separate category if its patterns (distance, frequency) are similar to others....


For the time being, RER is still nothing more than an concept in Belgium, as
infrastructure works will still take 8-10 years before completion. So RER today
is just a slogan used to name local trains around Brussels. On the plan, each
solid line represents one train per hour ; there are indeed some lines where no
more than that is needed (just realize that Brussels is just a city of 1M inhabitants,
and outside the circle Braine-l'Alleud-Halle-Denderleew-Zellik-Mechelen-Leuven-
Groenendael, you are really out of the city and what you 
see from the train window is mostly fields and woods) ; every place where
more than one train per hour is needed, you will see 2, 3 or 4 parallel lines on
the map, indicating a train every 30, 20 or 15 min...

In the future, the Brussels RER network will probably looks like this :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:RER-2009v2.png?uselang=fr
each line denoting one train every 30 minutes.


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## Koekskensmonster (Mar 24, 2008)

MarcVD said:


> Absolutely wonderful. Two questions : - Do you mind if I cross-post your work in other forums ? - Would you do also the diagram for the week-end network ? Regarding the contents, are you really sure that there will be two relations per hour on the line between Charleroi and Couvin ? That seems so unlikely to me...


Please do  just let me know in private message where you posted it so I can track feedback. I am planning to make a weekend version too, as I'm especially interested in the differences in frequencies on a lot of lines, but for the weekend I don't have the new schedule in a document so I will have to look up every train on the website which will take longer.
As for the Charleroi - Couvin line, you're right: there is no L-train between Couvin and Charleroi as this should be a Peak hour train. I will change this as quickly as possible. This does give me the incentive to show stations that are only served by P-trains, as there are some on other lines too. Thanks for noticing.


----------



## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

^^ I posted it allready here  

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=367975&page=41


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Koekskensmonster said:


> Please do  just let me know


I plan to post it in two places :

- The NNTP newsgroup fido.belg.trains
- The HTML discussion forum of the site www.tram2000.be

But I'll wait until the line 132 correction is done.


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## Koekskensmonster (Mar 24, 2008)

Consider it done  thanks!


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> For the time being, RER is still nothing more than an concept in Belgium, as
> infrastructure works will still take 8-10 years before completion. So RER today
> is just a slogan used to name local trains around Brussels. On the plan, each
> solid line represents one train per hour ; there are indeed some lines where no
> ...


Well, my town only has 120K inhabitants, yet the S-Bahn runs every 15 minutes on most lines... The service levels around Brussels are still rather low for a city it's size.

In fact, most lines in Flanders justify a local at least every half hour. Around Brussels the aim should be to go for metro like frequencies (and better integration with the Urban transportation). Only then does Brussels stand a chance of losing it's position as most congested city in the world...


----------



## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> Well, my town only has 120K inhabitants...


Which is ?



K_ said:


> yet the S-Bahn runs every 15 minutes on most lines...


How many ?



K_ said:


> The service levels around Brussels are still rather low for a city it's size.


Compared with ? 

The current service frequencies that you see on this map is the base service 
only, i.e. the trains running every hour, between 6AM and 10PM. This is re-inforced
by many additional services at peak hours, most of them stopping at
selected stations only. The result is that between 7 to 9 AM, and 4 to 6 PM,
the north-south link, as well as the north, central, and south stations, are
totally saturated. Adding more trains would need expanding this infrastructure
first, something that the financial state of this country could not afford.



K_ said:


> In fact, most lines in Flanders justify a local at least every half hour. Around Brussels the aim should be to go for metro like frequencies


When you take commuters and schoolchildren out of the picture, no. Outside 
this, the traffic patterns in Belgium are too local. High frequencies are only
needed for daily commutes. 



K_ said:


> (and better integration with the Urban transportation).


There you really have a point.



K_ said:


> (Only then does Brussels stand a chance of losing it's position as most congested city in the world...


As a belgian citizen working in Brussels every day, I think this status is 
heavily exaggerated. Also, congestion in Brussels comes from several factors :

- moves inside the city, caused by insufficient offer of local transport
- road infrastructure too centered around Brussels
- too high market share of trucks in goods transportation
- very high volume of commuters coming to Brussels every day (caused by
its status of capital city, but also because belgian linguistic laws)


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> Which is ?


Bern



> How many ?


Depends on the line. Look for "S-Bahn Bern". 






> The current service frequencies that you see on this map is the base service
> only, i.e. the trains running every hour, between 6AM and 10PM. This is re-inforced
> by many additional services at peak hours, most of them stopping at
> selected stations only. The result is that between 7 to 9 AM, and 4 to 6 PM,
> ...


These extra trains are a problem. If you look at SBB you'll see that they hardly run peak hour extras. Neither does NS. It is far more efficient to just run a high level service the whole day. 



> When you take commuters and schoolchildren out of the picture, no. Outside
> this, the traffic patterns in Belgium are too local. High frequencies are only
> needed for daily commutes.


It's a chicken and egg problem. If you postion public transit as something for people who commute to Brussels and people who can't afford cars then yes. 
But if you want to tempt people to choose a transit orientated lifestyle you need a high level of frequency throughout the day. You're not going to get local people on the train to travel to the next village down the line unless your train runs at least every half hour.





> As a belgian citizen working in Brussels every day, I think this status is
> heavily exaggerated. Also, congestion in Brussels comes from several factors :


What I always find odd about Brussel is how public transit has a high share with people commuting from far away, but rather a low share with people who live close. That shows that indeed the local service is severely lacking.


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

K_ said:


> What I always find odd about Brussel is how public transit has a high share with people commuting from far away, but rather a low share with people who live close. That shows that indeed the local service is severely lacking.


IS it really lacking? The subway/pre-metro is respectable in size for its population.


----------



## Puinkabouter (Jan 8, 2007)

^^ Size doesn't matter. It's what you do with it that counts. K_'s observation makes sense: there's a higher share of train travellers among long-distance commuters than among short-distance commuters. His conclusion that local traffic is not on-par with other forms of traffic seems legitimate. Obviously, a lack of a solid S-bahn network is a factor in this, but so are numerous other reasons, some of which are specific to the Belgian context (heavily centralized service economy, saturated railway corridor in central Brussels, disproportionate fiscal benefits for company cars and car use in general,...).


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> IS it really lacking? The subway/pre-metro is respectable in size for its population.


The network looks fine, yes (although I believe there are vast areas of the
city that are not properly covered) but frequencies and capacity are not
there. The tram fleet is currently being renewed, but not with enough vehicles
to cover all the needs ; buses are too small and too slow, because engulfed
in the traffic ; and for an in-between solution between tram and bus, the
trolleybus is completely ignored. In addition, local authorities refuse to 
dedicate enough street space to public transport, and refuse to give public
transport priority over cars.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> Depends on the line. Look for "S-Bahn Bern"..


Just wanted to know how many lines...



K_ said:


> These extra trains are a problem. If you look at SBB you'll see that they hardly run peak hour extras. Neither does NS. It is far more efficient to just run a high level service the whole day..


It's a trend on the SNCB network as well. Several peak hour services will be
transformed in full day services at the next schedule change (less than one
month to go now). But to go further in that direction, there is a resource that
SNCB is severely lacking : train drivers... SNCB management, pushed that way
by the past governements, who couldn't care less for mass transit, let the
train drivers population get too old, and now the learning capacity of SNCB is
just barely enough to replace those who are retiring. They have no way to
increase the number of active drivers. It's made even worse by the law still
allowing train drivers to retire early, as if they were still driving steam engines.
All of that also makes significant increases of services almost impossible.

And it's true that the position of SNCB is indeed that they prefer running a
peak hour train coming from another city with 1200 people on board than a
local with only 300. And the network capacity does not allow them to run 
both... To some extend, I can understand.


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## stephendavion (Jun 18, 2014)

The North-South Junction line is the focal point of local, international and local passenger rail traffic in the Brussels area



The order for RER stock will mean the withdrawal of several old classes of electric multiple unit stock



Artist's impression of forthcoming Siemens Desiro ML stock; the first tranche will go to the Brussels RER

Image *Source*


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

stephendavion said:


> Artist's impression of forthcoming Siemens Desiro ML stock; the first tranche will go to the Brussels RER


No need for an artist's impression when you can see plenty of them plying 
the belgian rails already... There were 305 units ordered, out of which about
200 have been delivered today. And yes indeed, it means the remaining
200 2-cars EMUs will all be sent to the scraper. Personally I won't regret 
them, even if this type of train was emblematic of the SNCB for more than
half a century, the same as "hondekoppen" for NS or "caravelles" for SNCF...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> And it's true that the position of SNCB is indeed that they prefer running a
> peak hour train coming from another city with 1200 people on board than a
> local with only 300. And the network capacity does not allow them to run
> both... To some extend, I can understand.


This also has to do with what Infrabel charges for train paths and stops at stations: a lot. In some way this is a means to keep open access operators out of Belgium: access charges are very high, SNCB is subsidised to pay for the paths. 

This makes running now trying expensive as Infrabel is bound by regulations, they can't offer additional paths for less money. And when SNCB's budget is yet again reduced by the government this directly impacts the number of trains that can run. This is why lots of early and late trains are being axed.


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> This also has to do with what Infrabel charges for train paths and stops at stations: a lot. In some way this is a means to keep open access operators out of Belgium: access charges are very high, SNCB is subsidised to pay for the paths.
> 
> This makes running now trying expensive as Infrabel is bound by regulations, they can't offer additional paths for less money. And when SNCB's budget is yet again reduced by the government this directly impacts the number of trains that can run. This is why lots of early and late trains are being axed.


I think personally the best model to organise the railway system in a country is a like this:
1) Set the track access charges at a level that IC and INT services (and freight) can survive on a purely commercial basis. These can be operated by the incumbent, or other companies, and they can just try to make money on it.
2) The infrastructure gets direct subsidies to make 1) possible. 

Then Let the most efficient train company be the most successful one.

3) Regional services are te responsibility of regional authorities, who contract them out. They set the tariffs. The operators are just subcontractors providing trainkm.

In Belgium however it seems that the main purpose of the way the railways are organised is sluicing state subsidies to building firms...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

As this subject has just been touched in the Switzerland thread...

In Belgium too, there is a long term program aiming at concentrating the
signal houses. Mechanic signalling has entirely disappeared, but there
are still many cabins (around 200 today) around. When the first phase
of this program will be finished - 2016 is the date currently retained - there
will be only 31 cabins to manage the belgian network. Then a phase 2 will
start, and around 2020, only 12 cabins will remain.

Two interesting documents about that (in french, sorry) :

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0T8h15a1k4
- http://ecms.infrabel.be/DMS/ds/fr/6658905 

There are several advantages to this new signalling system, one being that
it can automatically provide usage statistics for every track and switch. So
the network will now undergo a severe trim-down campaign, with every track
and switch too lightly used becoming a candidate for removal. I have already
witnessed that done to a mid-size station, reduction from 4 tracks to 3, and
from 20 switches to 12...

I also had the opportunity, a few weeks ago, to observe the switch-over 
operation of one entire station from its own local switchbox to remote
control. It was done in the night, station totally isolated from the network,
and with a loco to test all the itineraries. The engineer responsible for the
operation was in the loco, with his laptop connected to the internal network
of Infrabel over 4G, monitoring the display of the station in the remote control
centre 50 km away. So any defect could immediately be detected. Doing the
same operation with older technology would have required at least twice the
time and people...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Cab ride Brussels-Liège-Eupen, featuring :

- Six-tracks tunnel under Brussels
- The triple-stack north of Schaerbeek
- Four tracks section to Leuven
- 200 km/h running on the L2, with cab-signalling
- the 3,3% slope into Liège
- Liège-Guillemins
- Going through hilly terrain between Liège and Welkenraedt
- Single track running to Eupen
- Signalling explained all the way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7y020Q_2bA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoqgkSBFTW0

Enjoy !


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

^^ I've taken the liberty to include the actual videos directly in this post. There is also this video that goes before the actual train ride:

Description of the cab of class 13 of the SNCB/NMBS and start at Brussels-South (this is also shown in video 2):





Cab ride between Brussels-South and Liège-Guillemains:





Cab ride between Liège-Guillemains and Eupen:


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

^^ Thanks ! Two remarks, though :

- Although the train was indeed powered by a HLE 13, the cab ride was
actually taken from a HV I11 Bdx driving cab. The loco was pushing behind.
But the driving post of a HV I11 Bdx is essentially the same as in a HLE 13.
All trains on this line are oriented the same way, so that the ascend from
Liège Guillemins to Ans can be done with the regular loco pulling in front,
and a banking loco pushing from behind. This is necessary for all heavy
trains and for all of them in case of bad weather. You can see this banking
operation from the rear loco's driving post here, but the video is quite bad :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMTyMzeDSpY
In the early days of the railways, trains on this stretch were cable-hauled !

- Today HLE 13 locos don't operate on this line anymore, they have been
replaced by HLE 18.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

i found this old documentary about Belgian railways. It's made 20 years ago or even longer.

It features a lot of classes no longer in service but for rail enthousiasts a must watch!


----------



## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...iew/antwerpens-liefkenshoek-tunnel-opens.html
> 
> *Antwerpen’s Liefkenshoek tunnel opens*
> 10 Dec 2014
> ...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Track plan of main tracks in Belgium : not 100% up to date, but reasonably
accurate. Liefkenshoekspoortunnel is not shown yet, the last signal house
concentrations neither. But it gives a good idea...

http://www.infrabel.be/sites/default/files/documents/nv_c-04_techn_kaart_9700_0.pdf


----------



## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Railway Gazette:



> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ew/view/infrabel-warns-of-project-delays.html
> 
> *Infrabel warns of project delays*
> 18 Dec 2014
> ...


----------



## Stefvh (May 29, 2007)

Between Liège and Angleur

http://youtu.be/8_hLW_JvAQg


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

^^ You're linking to a video called "Tour de chauffe", which has nothing to do with the Belgian railways...

EDIT: I presume you wanted to link to the following video:


----------



## Stefvh (May 29, 2007)

No, it was this one,


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## the Ludovico center (Jun 12, 2009)

Koekskensmonster said:


> For those interested, I made a diagram showing all regular train services that will be active after the schedule change mid-December  feedback is always welcome.


Excellent


Now add the P-trains that you skipped on top of that - let's see how "fat" certain stations truly become :lol:


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## the Ludovico center (Jun 12, 2009)

Koekskensmonster said:


> For those interested, I made a diagram showing all regular train services that will be active after the schedule change mid-December  feedback is always welcome.


Excellent


Now add the P-trains that you skipped/removed.


Let's see how truly "fat" certain stations become :lol:


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## the Ludovico center (Jun 12, 2009)

It's official: Belgian trains are too old and stinky and squalid even in the eyes of Belgian politicians (who have now started to take pictures of exteriors and interiors and spread them on social media (which is odd: politicians are the ones who are authorized to do something about it)


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

The SJ X40 is a train with a weird specification is you think of it: It is intended for regional commuter service, yet has a maximum service speed of 200 km/h and only 252 seats in a 3 car double deck train.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

It is also being used for long distance services...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

I know. It's a great example of the fact that you can get a train in pretty much any configuration. Not all, to use a ridiculous example: something basic like air tight double blade doors still don't exist, thus a high speed (230+ km/h) commuter train will probably not happen anytime soon.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

There are talks going on in Belgium about introducing variable pricing on train 
travel, depending on the time the travel is made. This is see both as a way
to partialy reduce the debt of the belgian railways, and to reduce the 
congestion of the network at peak times.

It made the TV news yesterday, the subject featured a discussion about how
it was already done in other countries, completly ignoring that most examples
they gave were about long-distance traffic, while most of the belgian network
is just used for commuting. 

Today, the belgian ticketing system is made to sell tickets valid for a given journey
(origin-destination) and a given date (date of the sale by default, but
can be changed). No notion of hour. Same for season tickets.

There are no details known yet about how they want to implement that. Fixed
peak-time surcharge, variable price, noone knows. 

What I would like to know is whether this has already been implemented
elsewhere, on a commuter network (London comes to mind, but not sure),
how it worked, what were the pre-requisite (ticketing system changes, fares
structure changes, etc) and if it was successful.

Many thanks in advance,


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

MarcVD said:


> There are talks going on in Belgium about introducing variable pricing on train
> travel, depending on the time the travel is made. This is see both as a way
> to partialy reduce the debt of the belgian railways, and to reduce the
> congestion of the network at peak times.
> ...


What about Netherlands, just north of the border? It doesn't have an official peak fare, but it has very cheap subscription plans (from €50/year) that give substantial discounts for off-peak travel, which in practice means that anyone who travels more than 550km per year is better off with at least the 40% off-peak discount plan.

UK has a lot of "off-peak" fares as well, usually in the form of a return fare that costs as much as a single as long as the journey is completed off-peak. A common complaint is that it makes trains immediately after the end of afternoon peak very crowded, as passengers want to save money.


----------



## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> What about Netherlands, just north of the border? It doesn't have an official peak fare, but it has very cheap subscription plans (from €50/year) that give substantial discounts for off-peak travel, which in practice means that anyone who travels more than 550km per year is better off with at least the 40% off-peak discount plan.


So that would mean, practically, to increase significantly the existing prices
and make those prices suitable for travel any time of the day, and offer
discounted prices for travel outside peak hours only. For simple tickets, that
should be easy, but what about season tickets ? In Belgium most commuters
are using this formula... How can this be solved without using some form of
on-line checkin/checkout that does not exist in Belgium for the time being ?
It might certainly be desirable to implement this, but their objective is to
implement this fare difference for the begin of 2016... Was this off-peak
fare system implemented on NS before the availability of the OV-chipkaard ?



Suburbanist said:


> UK has a lot of "off-peak" fares as well, usually in the form of a return fare that costs as much as a single as long as the journey is completed off-peak. A common complaint is that it makes trains immediately after the end of afternoon peak very crowded, as passengers want to save money.


Yes but that is only implemented for long-distance travel, right ? You can't
really commit to using only a specific train when you are commuting...


----------



## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

MarcVD said:


> So that would mean, practically, to increase significantly the existing prices
> and make those prices suitable for travel any time of the day, and offer
> discounted prices for travel outside peak hours only. For simple tickets, that
> should be easy, but what about season tickets ? In Belgium most commuters
> ...


There are different season subscription option.

Right now, you could pay € 99/month to travel only during off-peak (so no travel between 6.30-9.00 and 16.00-18.30), or pay € 325/month to travel during peak hours throughout the network. 




> Yes but that is only implemented for long-distance travel, right ? You can't
> really commit to using only a specific train when you are commuting...


No, you have certain off-peak fares that are valid for all trains off-peak, even for commute distances like Milton Keynes - London


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

NS has had a off-peak discount pass for years, the so-called Voordeelurenabonnement. The rules were pretty simple: you are not allowed to board any train that leaves before 09:00 if you have a discounted ticket. You could travel during the evening peak though.

Now with the OV-chipkaart, the validators determine the fare that you will pay.


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> So that would mean, practically, to increase significantly the existing prices
> and make those prices suitable for travel any time of the day, and offer
> discounted prices for travel outside peak hours only. For simple tickets, that
> should be easy, but what about season tickets ? In Belgium most commuters
> ...


The "Voordeelurenkaart" in the Netherlands existed long time before they had the Chipkaart. Implementing something like that does not require "check in/out". 
But what it would require is making passes that are always valid more expensive too. Public transit is generally to cheap in Belgium as it is anyway.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Hopefully SNCB ultimately adopts OV-Chipkaart 

It would be interesting to have the OV-Chipkaart system expanded to Belgium, and then Luxembourg, and then maybe some day to Denmark and Switzerland


----------



## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Hopefully SNCB ultimately adopts OV-Chipkaart
> 
> It would be interesting to have the OV-Chipkaart system expanded to Belgium, and then Luxembourg, and then maybe some day to Denmark and, the promised land, Switzerland


Switzerland is working in a Chip card for public transit. It will however not be based on "check in/check out" but "be in/be out". In other words, the system that is envisaged will only require you to have the card on your body. The vehicle then detects your presence and charges you accordingly. This will even make it possible to make a last minute decision to travel first class for example. 

One thing that will never happen in Switzerland is abolishing the open access regime. Installing gates at stations will just not happen.

This summer the "Swiss Pass" will be introduced, which is going to be chipcard that will be used in a first phase to store passes. People that for example both have a Halbtax and a Unlimted Travel Pass for a local transit company can then have both of them loaded on the same card. But it will also be possible to load for example ski passes on the card. Especially that could be very useful...

See http://www.voev.ch/de/Medien/Mediendetails?newsid=85


What I would like to see in the Netherlands is that they make the OV Chipcard system compatible with contactless creditcards. If they make it possible for me to just Check in/out with my MasterCard then all will be forgiven


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

K_ said:


> What I would like to see in the Netherlands is that they make the OV Chipcard system compatible with contactless creditcards.


They are working on that for Dutch debit cards. It may even work for all contactless Meastro cards with SEPA/IBAN account numbers. Who knows that someday even credit cards will be supported.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> Hopefully SNCB ultimately adopts OV-Chipkaart
> 
> It would be interesting to have the OV-Chipkaart system expanded to Belgium, and then Luxembourg, and then maybe some day to Denmark and Switzerland


The Belgians are already working on a variant of the OV-chipkaart: MOBIB. From a technology point it's based on Calypso (a French standard) and it has some nice things that the Dutch OV-chipkaart does not currently have.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> The Belgians are already working on a variant of the OV-chipkaart: MOBIB. From a technology point it's based on Calypso (a French standard) and it has some nice things that the Dutch OV-chipkaart does not currently have.


Lets hope that all these systems are compatible on the physical layer, so that making them all work together is only a matter of software. It would really be great if I could use my "Swiss Pass" as a MOBIB in Belgium and an OV Chipkaart in the Netherlands.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Having a public transport smart card which works throughout Europe would be brilliant, indeed. Unfortunately all transport operators, agencies and governments are working seperately so that we now have Oyster, OV-chipkaart, VDV-KA, Calypso, MOBIB, ITSO, Pass Navigo, and so on...


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## the Ludovico center (Jun 12, 2009)

The "MOBIB" card is already the standard card given to all rail-subscribing passengers, except that the passengers never get to use the technology themselves because unlike the French and the Dutch (who simultaneously implemented the whole system of cards AND card-reader infrastructure) Belgian Rail decided instead to hand out only the technology-equipped cards without any concrete plan to setup the check-in/upload infrastructure at the stations/trains. So only the Belgian railway personnel (ticket sellers and on-board controllers) get to enjoy the fruits of RFID currently
.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

MIVB/STIB does use the MOBIB card's functionality for access control and to have people pay for their trips, and I know that De Lijn in Antwerp is working on introducing the system as well.

I think NMBS/SNCB will introduce the smart card ticketing aspect at some point in the future, but when is to be seen.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

MOBIB is the format used by SNCB for season tickets because some of those
are a combination SNCB+STIB and SNCB wanted to use one format only. But
there are indeed no plans to introduce MOBIB validating machines on the 
SNCB domain. The focus for the time being is more on the MOBIB integration
for STIB/TEC/De Lijn.

In any case, to come back on the original question, this peak/off peak
fare differentiation is to be in place for 2016 so it will certainly not depend
on the deployment of any kind of validation hardware, which would never
be ready in time. It will have to rely only on the classical paper ticketing 
infrastructure that is in place today, plus the usual on-board verification of 
the tickets. In order to expect any tangible results, this will certainly have to
be strenghtened (currently only 30 to 40% of the tickets are really checked).


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> Having a public transport smart card which works throughout Europe would be brilliant, indeed. Unfortunately all transport operators, agencies and governments are working seperately so that we now have Oyster, OV-chipkaart, VDV-KA, Calypso, MOBIB, ITSO, Pass Navigo, and so on...



One would hope however that at least on the physical layer (the RFID radio) the systems are compatible. So that it's all a matter of software to link the systems.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Expected suburban network service around Brussels for the end of this year.
At that time the new tunnel in the east of Brussels should open.

http://www.belgianrail.be/fr/corporate/Publications/~/media/6A522281439344228EBDD1D5F04944C8.ashx

A serious progress compared to what exists today, even if all the 
infrastructure works going on around Brussels are not finished yet.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Tyger-Wyger said:


> .
> Today's Classes 18 and 19 don't seem to be able to operate with full power in Holland nor are they equipped with Dutch signaling to my knowledge.


SNCB Class 18 can run under 1.5 kV, they have specifically been ordered for that. They lack Dutch signalling but will be equipped with ERTMS, which will also be rolled out on the Dutch network in the years to come.

So, theoretically, in a few years from now it is possible to see an HLE 18 pulling the Beneluxtrein.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

The currently plans envision ERTMS L2 on the conventional tracks in the Randstad at around 2028, so that will be a while. And delays are not uncommon with such major projects, given that the ministry of transport is looking for ways to reduce the cost of the ERTMS roll out.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

As far as I known, HLE 18 can technically run under 1.5 kV indeed, but it has never been
validated, and as far as I know there are no plans to do it. I do not think they were 
ordered with that specific feature, but rather that it comes as a free option because of
the way the loco is engineered.


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## Dorfmeister (Aug 21, 2007)

MarcVD said:


> As far as I known, HLE 18 can technically run under 1.5 kV indeed, but it has never been
> validated, and as far as I know there are no plans to do it. I do not think they were
> ordered with that specific feature, but rather that it comes as a free option because of
> the way the loco is engineered.


HLE18/19 can indeed run under 1,5Kv DC but with limited power (aroung 2,6Kw available) and they aren't fitted with ATB which is manadatory for new trains to run in Netherlands.

So with no ETCS and no ATB installed; you can forget - for the time being - seeing a HLE18/19 in the Netherlands.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Wasn't it the intention to have a 3 kV DC/25 kV AC capable subseries of the NS ICNG in the future, so it could be used both on the HSL and for the Benelux service?


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

M-NL said:


> Wasn't it the intention to have a 3 kV DC/25 kV AC capable subseries of the NS ICNG in the future, so it could be used both on the HSL and for the Benelux service?


That would make sense... and could explain why NS doesn't want to invest 
money in TRAXX-compatible driving cabs. When are those ICNG supposed to
show up ? Any idea of the chosen design already ?


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

First delivery is scheduled for 2020, first use in service for 2021.
They're at the very start of the tender process. Besides this information the only other publicly available information is that Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier and Stadler have shown interest to build these trains.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Have the attacks on Zaventem airport damaged the train station and/or the tunnels leading to it?


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## Puinkabouter (Jan 8, 2007)

^^ No, they haven't.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

NS has invested quite a lot of money in their existing ICR BDs driving coaches to have them work with the Traxx locomotives, but they set a hard deadline for when the interface should be stable enough. As this deadline was not met, the project has been abandoned altogether.

A "Belgium capable" version of ICNG is envisaged as a potential follow-on order, the first batch of trains (which will enter service in 2021) will only be equipped for running in the Netherlands.

The 1.5 kV capabilities of HLE 18/19 were a deliberate choice by SNCB, as they want to be able to use the locomotives to haul trains just across the border (e.g. to Maastricht). If SNCB did not want this, they wouldn't have ordered the locos with this configuration. To compare: the MS08 (Desiro ML) has _not_ been equipped for 1.5 kV operation, as a result of this the trains simply shut down when detecting 1.5 kV.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

As do any other 3kv equipment. RTN (relais de tension nulle) will detect insufficient tension and shut the train down. But there is a switch to bypass this for when trains go to NS stations like Rosendaal or Maastricht. As other equipment for stop trains (AM66 to 73 or 75) will be phased out, desiro AMs must be able to do that too. 

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## nathanmarcus (Apr 1, 2016)

Latest News First passenger trains begin service on new Brussels railway tunnel

Belgian rail engineering firm TUC Rail has announced the start of first passenger trains through the new Schuman-Josaphat railway tunnel in Brussels.

TUC RAIL has worked on the construction project since 2008, and the engineering and project management office carried out the studies, management and follow-up for the scheme. Under the project, approximately 100 security cameras, a fire detection system and new emergency exits have been installed at the station.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

nathanmarcus said:


> Latest News First passenger trains begin service on new Brussels railway tunnel


It started two weeks ago already. On a very limited mode because it was 
school holidays, and because of the limitations caused by the security 
measures following the terrorist attacks.

Now we have the normal configuration, with two hourly IC trains, two S trains,
and two other S trains only during peak times. So 4 to 6 trains per hour per
direction. 

I will give it a try next Thursday.


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## StuZealand (May 13, 2011)

> Three people were killed and about 40 others were injured as a result of a train collision in Belgium.
> 
> Belgian media are reporting that three people were killed and about 40 others were injured as a result of a train collision.
> 
> ...



"The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 2 characters."

WTF?


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

StuZealand said:


> "The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 2 characters."
> 
> WTF?


A quote probably doesn't count for message length. So a message containing only a quote without any additional text is zero characters long.

On topic: Wow, that's third major accident since 2010, two of which have been train collisions caused by trains getting on the wrong tracks.
I'm very interested in the cause, once they identify it. Except for coupling/decoupling at low speeds two trains on the same track just shouldn't be possible.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

M-NL said:


> A quote probably doesn't count for message length. So a message containing only a quote without any additional text is zero characters long.
> 
> On topic: Wow, that's third major accident since 2010, two of which have been train collisions caused by trains getting on the wrong tracks.
> I'm very interested in the cause, once they identify it. Except for coupling/decoupling at low speeds two trains on the same track just shouldn't be possible.


Ok, I'll tell what I know, but very little is available for the moment.
A freight train was standing still on the main line, waiting for a signal to open.
This train was quite heavy, carrying quarry products.
A passenger train, IC Mouscron-Tournai-Mons-Charleroi-Namur-Liège-Liers, hit
that freight train from the rear. Track speed at that place is 120 km/h (it's a
valley line, following the Meuse river, quite curvy) and the apparent speed of
collision is around 90 km/h. A that speed against a train carrying stone, it's
like hitting a wall, large damages are unavoidable...
Train composition is 2 x AM96 (if I have interpreted correctly the very few 
available pictures of the scene; but it matches the stock normally used on this 
line). As far as I know all this stock is equipped with the new TBL1+ signaling
system.
So it looks like the passenger train entered the section with a clear signal and 
braked at the last moment.
Front carriage entirely destroyed, second one a bit less, both tipped over. The
rest of the train apparently remained upright.
3 casualties, among them the train driver... 
There was an incident with the signaling system a few hours before the 
accident, a lightning hit a cabin with lineside equipment. Traffic was restored 
after damages were repaired, but may be signal inspectors missed something. 
This is being explored as a possible root cause but no evidence has been found 
to support this till now.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

As far as I'm aware, the train is indeed equipped with TBL1+, but that section of track isn't. Only the signs around switches are equipped with TBL1+ as they are a priority to secure, all the other sections seem to still be equipped with just Memor/Crocodile (note: not sure if I can fully trust my source, but it seems reasonable).

As Memor is only an aid to remember the double yellow lights and will not do anything when a train passes red, it could be a driver error. But it could also be a weird signal failure, suicide, sabotage, train detection failure, an uncaught traffic center error, brake failure, ... Long story short: we'll have to await the investigation.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

All SNCB officials + politicians in charge of the railways say that TBL1+ deployment is complete, 99,9% of the network is equipped (the remaining 0,1% will not be equipped).
Therefore I assume that all signals along a line as busy as line 125 would be equipped, even if they are only block signals, and not protecting switches.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

Hmm, while I suspect the same, I'm not yet completely convinced. On their site they say they've applied TBL1+ to the whole network since the end of 2015, but I'm not sure of what they call 'the whole network'.

For example: Infrabel also mentions 99.9% 'efficiency coverage' on their site (might be an outdated page though), which is not the same as just 'coverage'. I'm not completely sure the efficiency coverage includes block signals. I haven't heard any confirmation that TBL1+ was active at the signal that should have stopped the train, so we'll just have to await the official report for more information (which will take quite a while).


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## da_scotty (Nov 4, 2008)

What effect will this have on fast services between Antwerpen and Brussel? Will the speed go up / traveltime be shortened?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

M-NL said:


> But that's the beauty of TBL1+. It is non-other then a switchable Eurobalise, that you are going to need in the future for ERTMS anyway.
> 
> So fit the balises now for added protection and reprogram them once you switch to ERTMS. A solid future proof solution if there ever was one.


And Italy and Switzerland are going exactly the same route, for the same reasons...


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## Wilhem275 (Apr 7, 2006)

da_scotty said:


> What effect will this have on fast services between Antwerpen and Brussel? Will the speed go up / traveltime be shortened?


I read that one of the goals is to improve TGV's speed from 100 to 160 km/h. 100 km/h is there because of the fork to line 25N, I suppose, because the rest of the layout seems mostly straight.

I re-revised the project and, although my doubts on its effectiveness are cleared, now I'm even more doubtful about its efficiency. In simple words: it looks horribly overengineered.

My concern comes from the fact that Mechelen has a total of 10 tracks on its southern side... and still 4 north of the node (lines 25 and 27). So I don't get the point of adding more and more through tracks and platforms if in the end capacity is limited by what happens towards Antwerpen.

IMHO this could have been solved in a much simpler way.
I'd have line 25N join line 25 south of Mechelen, with a very easy flyover parallel to the one used by line 27. It's in a perfect position.










With this setup the four tracks can reach the station already paired by direction and use efficiently the existing two island platforms. Much better for passengers: one platform to Brussel, the other to Antwerpen.

Nothing to touch north of the station, everything is already sorted out.
Voila, everything done at a fraction of the cost and with no hassle to line 27, 27B or anything else.

You want extra tracks towards Antwerpen, another platform, a connection to line 27, anything else? There's enough money spared to do everything, easy to add at a later stage...


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

No, the current 100 km/h was already present even before someone had thought of making L25N. It is there due to the relatively sharp corner that the trains need to make before crossing the bridges over the canal, the junctions before and after these bridges and because these bridges aren't designed for higher speeds. There's already a lot of cant applied to the tracks to increase the maximum speed, but any faster would be impossible without special trains. Also, the bridges are protected industrial buildings and probably couldn't be modified easily enough to allow for higher speeds without changing their looks.

In the past, local trains and intercity trains used to call at the same platform around the same time to allow people to switch trains. With the addition of the high-speed trains passing by this wasn't possible any more as they can't have both tracks in one direction blocked at the same time so often. These two new tracks would make this possible again and free up the tracks in the lower half of the station (the southern tracks are located a metre or so higher than the rest).

If your fly-over was added, they'd need to realign line 25 as you won't be at the same height yet at the corner and trains would probably have to slow down to ~90 km/h as applying cant in most of the corner will become impossible with the added junction for this fly-over. That realignment would make it impossible to ever add two more tracks to the station in the future, unless they'd find the money to tear down some of the factory halls next to the track.

Several parts of the project do indeed seem overengineered to me or could be made cheaper, but most of it doesn't seem like a waste to me. If they want to be able to overhaul the station, they'd need to take two tracks out of commission all the time to work on that 'slice' of the station. You'd need to cancel several trains to do that as the capacity currently simply isn't there. It was already difficult to get things done with one unavailable track during the construction of the underground parking next to the station.


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## Wilhem275 (Apr 7, 2006)

I see your (well, their) points, but I'd rather focus on functionality than on pure transit speed.
In my opinion it's much worse to have poorly arranged platforms than to have a low speed for through services; which in the end are just a couple of trains every 2 hours, like 2% of L25 traffic?

The point of joining 25 and 25N before the station is that you can then arrange several connections at the same platform for trains using 25N, while this will be impossible now.
The extra tracks and platforms that they're building now would have been an expansion of the current station, also allowing to overhaul the old plaforms (build the new one, then close another for works).
Partly solving the speed problem, since it would have straightened all the southbound tracks (the most affected).

Also, I don't see a great advantage for 25N: a bit faster inside the station, but then it has 7 km of twists and turns before reaching the main line :|


What I don't like of this kind of projects is that they keep adding new parts without really improving the rest. I suspect this is a case of what I call BTS - Brownfield Terror Syndrome: typical of the Italian railways, it's a tendency to design any evolution works leaving as untouched as possible everything already in operation.
It makes a 10-year construction much easier, especially for current designers and administrators... but then leaves 150 years of disfunctional outputs behind it.

So now Mechelen will have a station composed of 3 different separate stations. A friend of mine said that it looks like when you're playing Railroad Tycoon 2 and traffic grows and you keep adding random lines until it's a complete mess :lol:


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

I think that Wilhem's proposal would have been much better than what is being built now. Line 25N would have joined line 25 not only grade-separately but also independently from line 27B. Certainly to allow speeds of 160 km/h for line 25N one would have needed to reconstruct line 25 through Mechelen as well. The extra costs would have been little in the ?? of the entire project.

Instead one has chosen to simply add lijn 25N without any alteration of the other three lines through Mechelen. And this despite the rather unfavourable at-grade crossing of line 27 and 53. This seem to be quite typical. The joined-up planning of the Dutch seem to be completely alien to the Belgians.


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## Wilhem275 (Apr 7, 2006)

EDIT: sorry, I got the wrong image and wrote some messed up info, I'm correcting the first part of this post.

I found an image that shows pretty well the tight curves mentioned by Glodenox:










We are on the elevated platforms, part of line 25, facing _north _[not south]. We can see that the southbound track (used by that double decker) follows a more natural curve. Maybe in the original layout there were just two tracks? It looks like the northbound track was meant to be reached from the photographer's p.o.v.

Also seen at 20:00 of this video:





I believed this was the bridge over the canal south of the station, and I stated than a new bridge left of it would straighten the route. Which is true, but this is the bridge _north _of the station, and the new one is being built _right _of it.
I still keep the idea that functionality is more important than speed, but now I can see why it's so hard to speed up that bit. 


Btw, thanks to Glodenox for his very well organized thread.
It's an otherwise interesting project: stunning design, a deep integration with the city, historical analysis... I like A LOT how the new canopy's design is insipired by the old bridges.
But who made the railway planning should really get on one of those trains and move a bit north, to learn what integration means  (no offence to the Belgians).


There's one thing I can't understand from the renders, about platforms arrangement.
In some, it looks like there will be an island plaform next to the current last one (tracks 9+10):









Which would mean a total of 13 tracks.
Other sources show a total of 12, with two single platforms around tracks 11 and 12 (line 25N):


















In this case the platform of track 11 would border track 10 without serving it.
Is this correct?
(if the answer is yes, prepare for a HUGE rant :lol


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Are there any news on the tram-train hybrid project between Hasselt and Maastricht?

Also, I'd like to ask: which railway links between Belgium and France are operational as of now, even if no passenger train is currently using them?


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

As far as I remember :

- Mouscron Tourcoing 
- Blandain Baisieux 
- Wannehain (tgv)
- Quevy Feignies 
- Erquelinnes Jeumont
- Athus Rodange

Only the first 3 still se scheduled passenger trains.

Envoyé de mon GT-I9505 en utilisant Tapatalk


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

I'm not completely certain about the current plans concerning track placement. At the moment the first 6 tracks are located a metre and a half lower than the other tracks (see this Wikipedia image).
The trains running on the southern platforms need to go over the trains from the lower platforms. This is due to the Antwerp-Brussels connection which should have as few as possible junctions to have as much capacity as possible. This height difference will remain in the new station, though it'll be less visible with the canopy stretching the whole width of the station.

Those renders seem to suggest two extra tracks on the side of the city, which I haven't heard of yet. While there will be some extra space in the front of the station after the station building has been demolished, there doesn't seem to be enough space to the north of the station to add two tracks. Unless the platforms are made narrower, but I'm not sure whether that's a good idea... Therefore: I wouldn't look at those renders to get an accurate image of the track layout.

EDIT: I just realised they're basically moving the whole station about the width of a track to the southeast. That, combined with about 20 cm less for each double platform would make both the speed on the existing tracks faster and allow for two extra platforms at that side of the station. Considering there are plans to increase the frequency of some trains, that would probably be useful capacity.


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## Wilhem275 (Apr 7, 2006)

So this is much more than a cosmetic overhaul of the existing platforms, if they are shifting the whole thing.

Then I still have the same question, looking at the plans (not just the renders): why the last two tracks (11+12, dedicated to 25N) are NOT configured with a common island platform as the existing 7~10?

Al the plans show an arrangement like
7>
=
8>
9<
=
10<

=
11>
12<
=

Maybe they're keeping space for future extra tracks reserved to 25N? Like:
7>
=
8>
9<
=

10>
=
11>
12<
=
13<


It's my personal paranoia, I know. I'm a parallel paths junkie. But I'm still thinking that with a couple of fixes all this beautiful station can gain a big plus on functionality (without wasting what's being done).
Later I'll try to draw an example of what I have in mind.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Do they have some long-term plans to upgrade the station Bruxelles-Chapelle? It looks really awful (I visited it couple years ago). I had noticed they were revamping the other atrocious-looking station in the city, Schaerbeerk.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Suburbanist said:


> Do they have some long-term plans to upgrade the station Bruxelles-Chapelle? It looks really awful (I visited it couple years ago). I had noticed they were revamping the other atrocious-looking station in the city, Schaerbeerk.


It's probbly going to be closed. Almost no trains stop there and no-one ever takes a train there. It's famous with train spotters because on rush hours you can watch over 90trains an hour pass by the little station. And I bet you haven't seen it when it was on its worst:






Kapellekerk lies just 800 meters from where this is shot and in the middel of the tracks.


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## Helmet222 (Sep 14, 2009)

I do not understand why they won`t use that station for the new RER-System. I mean no wonder no one uses this station, when there are no trains stopping there except one. The same goes for Bruxelles-Congres. In an S-Bahn-System it`s not so important that the station is close to other larger stations. 
I think travellers would use that station more, when more trains stop there. The station could be a nice addition to the new S-Bahn/RER-System.


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## Spookvlieger (Jul 10, 2009)

Helmet222 said:


> I do not understand why they won`t use that station for the new RER-System. I mean no wonder no one uses this station, when there are no trains stopping there except one. The same goes for Bruxelles-Congres. In an S-Bahn-System it`s not so important that the station is close to other larger stations.
> I think travellers would use that station more, when more trains stop there. The station could be a nice addition to the new S-Bahn/RER-System.


There are to few tracks. It's a serious bottleneck. In theory the tracks can handle 96 trains an hour but on peak hours more than a hundred trains try to pass on those tracks. This causes delays over the whole system. I doubt they could queeze more trains on that section.


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## flierfy (Mar 4, 2008)

Wilhem275 said:


> Then I still have the same question, looking at the plans (not just the renders): why the last two tracks (11+12, dedicated to 25N) are NOT configured with a common island platform as the existing 7~10?


I wonder about this arrangement myself. I presume that it has something to do with the adjacent bridges and the speed that this line extension is designed for.


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## bench_mark_2 (Feb 23, 2012)

Does anyone know if there are any plans for refurbishment of the line between Brussels South and Antwerp Central or of consruction of a new high-speed line between these two towns?

Currently this route seems to be the slowest part of the lines connecting Amsterdam/Rotterdam/Antwerp to Paris and London.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

There are no plans for that at the moment and I haven't heard of any long-term plans either.

There are however plans on reorganizing the traffic within the north-south tunnel under Brussels and the construction of a couple flyovers north of Brussels North that would allow for easier traffic management. High-speed trains usually take the route alongside the E19 on the new L25N, but the speed there is still limited to 160 km/h.

There is also work going on around the station of Mechelen by providing a bypass which raises the speed limit from 120 km/h to 160 km/h. North of Mechelen this bypass has to merge with the existing tracks again though, which will probably be at a slower speed again. Plans to reorganize that part of the tracks are also on the way, but shouldn't be expected too soon.

From there to Antwerp the tracks currently allow for 160 km/h and that will most likely stay so. If really needed there are certain sections they could probably improve to 200 km/h, but that will cost way too much for what it's worth as train stations along the route would require additional safety measures then. There is no room to lay high-speed train tracks here unless you'd want to slash half of the intercity traffic between Antwerp and Brussels, get rid of all cargo trains and local trains or pay several billions of Euros to make space around the tracks in one of the most built-up areas of Europe (aka: not going to happen).

So there won't be any high-speed lines in the foreseeable future on that segment, though there are several plans to at least improve the current situation a bit. There simply isn't enough space available, nor is there the political will to change much there.


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## bench_mark_2 (Feb 23, 2012)

Glodenox said:


> There are no plans for that at the moment and I haven't heard of any long-term plans either.
> 
> There are however plans on reorganising the traffic within the north-south tunnel under Brussels and the construction of a couple flyovers north of Brussels North that would allow for easier traffic management. High-speed trains usually take the route alongside the E19 on the new L25N, but the speed there is still limited to 160 km/h.
> 
> ...


Certainly tha mount of traffic is large, but I suppose that there always can be space for a new pair of tracks. The most expensive railway project is probably the new high speed railway line between Euston and Birmingham. It is designed for speed of 250 mpf (400 kilometres per hour) and also passes through very densely populated areas which requires that significant part of the line is in twin tunnels or viaducts. The distance between Antwerp and Brussels is 4 times less, and even if this line has substantial parts in tunnels, it will not cost more than 2-3 billion euros as there will be just one station that needs to be modernised - Brussels Central (allowing for 1 new platform for the high speed services). However a new line could allow for travel times of 12-15 minutes between Brussels Central and Antwerp.Central and could be part of the project of modernisation of Brussels Central which seems to be neccessary anyway.

It is also important that Brussels particularly is well connected to the European high speed network because of its central location.


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## Dorfmeister (Aug 21, 2007)

bench_mark_2 said:


> The distance between Antwerp and Brussels is 4 times less, and even if this line has substantial parts in tunnels, it will not cost more than 5 billion euros. However I suppose that this will require substantial modernisation of Brussels Central (allowing for 1 new platform for the high speed services) and similar modernisation of Antwerp Central where this could be rather challenging because of the lack of space. However a new line could allow for travel times of 12-15 minutes between Brussels Central and Antwerp.Central.


Even if it costs no more than 5 billion €, this is still useless. The time you'll win for such an amount of money won't be worth it. But if you have 5 billion € available, we will be able to buid a new Nord-South junction which will bring far greater benefits (capacity and time) to the whole belgian network. 

The line between Brussels and Antwerp is already fit for 160 Km/h running for most of its length (line 25 from Vilvoorde to Mortsel), so upgrading it to 200-250 Km/h running would be damn expensive and would bring nearly no benefits (if you look at the distances between both cities). 

Moreover, you'll still be restricted by capacity and conflicting train paths. Remodelling Mechelen station and eliminating this bottleneck is the best value for money solution on this line. 

Others solutions would be cost prohibitive.


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## suasion (Sep 7, 2015)

Kingrotra said:


> Cant imagine someone not being in love with such a magnificent train station! :cheers:


It's magnificent on that level. The thru platforms in the nether regions of the station are another matter entirely.




.


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## Thermo (Oct 25, 2005)

Kingrotra said:


> Cant imagine someone not being in love with such a magnificent train station! :cheers:


My post was actually not about the station but about the train looking like a Minion  (but the image of the Minion fails to show apparently...)



suasion said:


> It's magnificent on that level. The thru platforms in the nether regions of the station are another matter entirely.


Well, obviously. But I don't think there's anything wrong with it.


SNCB 08176, Antwerp Centraal by Steve ., on Flickr









https://www.flickr.com/photos/piet_musterd/6034440035/


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## suasion (Sep 7, 2015)

Some fancy lighting for good pictures doesn't alter the fact that they are barren, souless areas devoid of facilities; a stark contrast to the upper levels.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

I don't see the reason for all the hype around Antwerpen C. It is a nice station, sure, but not something that really stands out in Europe. A Belgian station that really stands out? That would be Liège-Guillemins.


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## Puinkabouter (Jan 8, 2007)

^^ Stands out how exactly? It's hardly _more_ unique, considering that Europe has so many Calatrava-designed train stations. They've become as trivial as 19th century canopies. They're just a little newer and shinier.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

For me Antwerpen Centraal is a much more welcoming and passenger friendly station than Liège Guillemins, which is far too cold and windy to begin with. And then I really like a lot the happy marriage of the old canopy and station building with the new style of the levels below.


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## Wilhem275 (Apr 7, 2006)

Me too. I like how they searched for a completely different language in its lower levels, instead of mocking the old style.

19th century style applied to a modern deep level station would have probably been quite unwelcoming, a sort of dark crypt.

The great canopy overground appears so gracious also because it's huge and leaves a lot of free room under it, not forcing the building and its heavily detailed decorations into a visually tiny space.

Underground, and with the single deck available overhead, the same decorations would be suffocated.


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## Wilhem275 (Apr 7, 2006)

As many of you may know, the (in)famous V250 trainsets are being revised and will be used by Trenitalia on its high speed services.

This is a low cost acquisition, so the bare minimum will be changed in order to keep within the original homologation as much as possible.
The main difference will be the removal of NS and SNCB signalling equipment, being replaced by their Italian counterpart.

The trains were homologated for a Vmax = 250 km/h (with 25 kV) and were said to reach 200 max under the Belgian 3 kV.
Now, there's some curiosity among railfans whether these trains will be legally or technically capable of reaching 250 under 3 kV as well, and maybe here someone has info about it.

Could it be that they were limited @200 just because the Belgian ATP wouldn't go further? Or maybe due to mechanical or power limits of the overhead line?
After all, there was no need for anything more between Antwerpen and Mechelen.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

There is no track in Belgium electrified in 3kV= that allows more than 200 km/h running, and will probably never be.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

Belgium is doing things the right way, converting lines into 25kV AC. ProRail should take notice of Infrabel in that regard...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Wilhem275 said:


> The trains were homologated for a Vmax = 250 km/h (with 25 kV) and were said to reach 200 max under the Belgian 3 kV.
> Now, there's some curiosity among railfans whether these trains will be legally or technically capable of reaching 250 under 3 kV as well, and maybe here someone has info about it.


The ERA limits DC powered trains to 200 km/h, but a few exceptions were made. In case of Italy, they already had 3 kV high speed lines at 250 km/h when those regulations came into effect. So there doesn't seem to be a legal problem.

Consulting this map you can see most lines in Belgium are limited to 2400 A, so they're able handle a single set at full power (5.5 MW equals 1833 A at 3000V), but not a dual set (11 MW equals 3667 A at 3000 V). You could however program the train to stay within a prescribed limit. Imposing this limit could also prevent a dual set from having different speed characteristics compared to a single set, which is an operational advantage. At the same time, because DC power distribution components are heavy and expensive, they could however also have chosen to make that limit in hardware, to save weight or cost.

Assuming they didn't use the hardware limited option, in Italy the high speed lines where the ETR 500 can run probably have a beefier power feed, so a V250 may be able to run completely unrestricted there and thus be capable of 250 km/h under 3000 VDC.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> Belgium is doing things the right way, converting lines into 25kV AC. ProRail should take notice of Infrabel in that regard...


Only Namur to Luxembourg. There are no plans to convert other lines. And there are still 3kV electrifications going on today. The electrification of Namur Luxembourg was done on the cheap and today it is life expired. As it is quite isolated from the rest of the belgian network and in a place where other lines already use 25 kV- the conversion make sense. In less favourable situations there would be no business case.


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## The Polwoman (Feb 21, 2016)

The Netherlands in first instance has to fix the ridiculously low 1,5kV voltage and go towards 3kV. That is cheaper but gives a very significant advantage over the current low voltage. Overhead wires can remain more or less the same so there will not be an extensive overhaul along the tracks.

Though in new cases and there where the overhead wires reach their maximum lifetime it is of course wise to have all equipment ready for 25kV AC.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

The Netherlands is an interesting story. They started of with 10 kV 25 Hz AC in 1907. In 1920 they had the choice to stick with that system or to switch to 1.5 kV DC, 3 kV DC or 15 kV 16 2/3 Hz AC. Of course they chose the worst option: 1.5 kV DC. 
In the next 25 years the limitations of 1.5 kV DC already became clear, yet after the second world war, with pretty much all the overhead lines destroyed and no working rolling stock left, they still stuck to 1.5 kV DC, despite it being the ideal moment to at least switch to 3 kV. They didn't, because the Netherlands has lots of short bridges, were the overhead line is interrupted and you could do maintenance on a 1.5 kV line under power using wooden ladders. Most interruptions are being bridged and current safety rules don't allow work on powered 1.5 kV lines anymore. Unlike the French they stuck to a single system, so now 70+ years later they're still considering whether to switch to 3 kV DC or 25 kV 50 Hz AC, with 3 kV currently having the advantage. This is for two main reasons: European law doesn't allow changes to ATB-EG for use with AC power anymore and lots of infrastructure (bridges, viaducts and tunnels) don't have enough clearance to support voltages over 3 kV.

The Belgians started electrification later (in 1931) and had the option between several DC and AC systems. They chose 3 kV DC, because AC systems still had to many snags at that time. Would 25 kV AC be better. Yes, but at the nominal voltage of 3.3 kV a 4 kA feeding station can deliver over 13 MW of power, which should be enough to power most regular trains up to 200 km/h. This system has to few real life limitations for a small country like Belgium to make a switch really necessary, unless you have to really update your infrastructure like many eastern European countries are doing.


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

AC has the advantage of making it easier to integrate the railway electrical feed and the national electricity grid.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Suburbanist said:


> AC has the advantage of making it easier to integrate the railway electrical feed and the national electricity grid.


Just the opposite, my friend (electricity engineer speaking here). AC electrification is very difficult to integrate in a 50Hz national grid because AC traction is single phase, while all grids are 3 phase. So all substations are creating terrible unbalanced loads on the network. This can somewhat be supported by solid grids like in Europe but much less if the current drawn becomes a significant part of the total grid output. Opposed to that, a 3 phase AC to DC rectifier creates a perfect symmetric load an is therefore much easier to absorb. The first HST substations created in France in 1981 have been a nightmare for EDF to integrate...


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Suburbanist said:


> AC has the advantage of making it easier to integrate the railway electrical feed and the national electricity grid.


Not really, the risks associated with HV AC are much greater (flashovers, electrical insulation), it needs bigger clearances than DC and neutral sections are needed to prevent desynchronised power sources from interfering with each other through the OHLE.

That's not to say AC is bad, it does have significant advantages over a DC solution. In a greenfield situation you should definitely go for AC nowadays, but the Netherlands does not have a greenfield situation - far from it!


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

MarcVD said:


> AC electrification is very difficult to integrate in a 50Hz national grid because AC traction is single phase, while all grids are 3 phase. ... Opposed to that, a 3 phase AC to DC rectifier creates a perfect symmetric load an is therefore much easier to absorb.


This brings me to an interesting thought: One of the parameters for the size of a transformer core is the power frequency. They decrease in size with higher frequencies. I've read an article by ABB of a test locomotive where they changed the frequency from the 15 kV 16,7 Hz AC overhead lines to something in the order of 1000 Hz, transformed it down to a lower voltage and converted it to DC to power the inverters. Despite all the steps needed the equipment was much smaller, lighter and more efficient.

Would it make sense to change 3 phase AC into DC and then into a higher frequency single phase AC and put that on the overhead wires? Because you're in full control of the invertion, you do not need phase breaks anymore. Also the AC to DC step eliminates the uneven grid load.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

The DC intermediate step bas been done - to connect together the two otherwise disconnected power grids of Japan, one 50 Hz and the other 60 Hz. But good luck to introduce a fifth catenary system along the 4 already existing standards in Europe. Also, the possible EM side effects of power lines running at x000 Hz ? And lots of losses from the skin effect...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

It is obviously to late to use this in reality. I wasn't thinking about x000 Hz, but more in the x00 Hz range, for instance the same 400 Hz they use on airplanes.

The purpose of the ABB test was to show that with modern technology the voltage and frequency of the overhead lines do not matter anymore. I don't know if any further equipment was ever built. I guess not, because the railway industry tends to be very conservative.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

M-NL said:


> It is obviously to late to use this in reality. I wasn't thinking about x000 Hz, but more in the x00 Hz range, for instance the same 400 Hz they use on airplanes.
> 
> The purpose of the ABB test was to show that with modern technology the voltage and frequency of the overhead lines do not matter anymore. I don't know if any further equipment was ever built. I guess not, because the railway industry tends to be very conservative.


This is the PETT transformer, currently being tested by SBB. Basically a scaled up wall wart. 
With that the tension and frequency of the OHL doesn’t matter anymore. So in the future railways will just choose what is appropriate for a certain line, and all stock will be multi system....


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## 3737 (Jul 1, 2009)

The Polman said:


> The Netherlands in first instance has to fix the ridiculously low 1,5kV voltage and go towards 3kV. That is cheaper but gives a very significant advantage over the current low voltage. Overhead wires can remain more or less the same so there will not be an extensive overhaul along the tracks.
> 
> Though in new cases and there where the overhead wires reach their maximum lifetime it is of course wise to have all equipment ready for 25kV AC.


Also another problem people are overlooking is that ATB isn't compatible with AC current due to magnetic interference in the ATB system (which was a big problem with railway lines which run parallel next to the HSL zuid).

So to convert all railway lines to 25 kV AC first ERMTS needs to be installed on those railway lines which would increase the cost of a conversion.
With a conversion to 3 kV DC, ATB is still compatible.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Since this morning it is possible to follow the position of all domestic passenger trains in real time.

The site's url is https://trainmap.belgiantrain.be/

This is still a beta version.

The background map comes from Openstreetmap.
All trains and stations are clickable.
Zoom-in and zoom-out available.

There are still some glitches (for example, the tunnel Schuman-Josaphat does not appear on the background map).

The map shows all the lines of the belgian network, also those that do not support passenger traffic.

For a reason unknown to me, TGVs seem to be missing.

I will try to find out whether there is a way to report to them issues and suggestions.

Enjoy !


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## DiogoBaptista (May 6, 2011)

*Viaduct of Moresnet*

Viaduct_de-Moresnet_Railpool_E186-449_für_LINEAS_04112018_86mm by Torsten Giesen, no Flickr


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Interesting reading : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viaduct_of_Moresnet


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Infrabel, the state owned company responsible for the railway infrastructure in Belgium, just launched its open data web site : https://opendata.infrabel.be/pages/home/
It contains, among others, all the data needed to map the belgian network, and also the real time of passage of every scheduled passenger train at every waypoint. This is refreshed daily.


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Infrabel, the state owned company responsible for the railway infrastructure in Belgium, just launched its open data web site : https://opendata.infrabel.be/pages/home/
It contains, among others, all the data needed to map the belgian network, and also the real time of passage of every scheduled passenger train at every waypoint. This is refreshed daily.


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

Some shots of Bruxelles-Central and Bruxelles-Nord:








*Bruxelles-Central*















































*Bruxelles-Nord*


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

^^


Video:


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

From *Bruges* to *Brussels* on train:


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

*Bruges: Central Station (Gare Centrale) *


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

^^


Video:


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## Castle_Bravo (Jan 6, 2006)

I was wondering: as the improvement of the Brussels-Gent-Brugge-Oostende is almost finalised, are there any specific plans or dates of implementing a 200km/h speed on (parts?) of this line? The Wikipedia page (in Dutch) mentions it, but with no specific dates.

Also - is there any possibility to decrease the travel time between Antwerp and Brussels? Of course the line between Brussels Nord and Midi is a separate issue, but nevertheless the travel time is not spectacular.


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## Glodenox (Mar 26, 2007)

I'm not certain about Brussels-Oostende, but for Brussels-Antwerp I can say that they're currently finishing the two new platforms in the station of Mechelen which will allow for a direct connection with railway line L25N (opened a couple of years ago, but with a slower connection to L25). The platforms and their tracks are expected to open in December. That line runs between Schaarbeek and Mechelen and is located on the median of the E19/A1 motorway. The line itself still only allows 160 km/h, just like the current line L25, but passing through Mechelen will be possible at a higher speed as the line curve when entering the station is much wider than the existing railway line. I don't think it'll shave off more than two minutes though. They also still need to optimize the junction after Mechelen-Nekkerspoel to gain some extra time there. They have plans for it, but I don't think the money has been reserved for it yet.

There are currently no plans on improving this further than that. All trains on this connection stop in both Brussels and Antwerp (about 35 kilometers), so increasing the speed limit will only save a couple of minutes at most. But to achieve this, costly changes would need to be made to the existing line and maintenance costs would greatly increase as well. Adding a new dedicated high-speed line here is practically impossible as it would need to go through one of the most densely populated regions of Europe and there is little space to spare. Of course, with lots of money everything would be possible, but there is too little to gain from the standpoint of Belgium.


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## Puinkabouter (Jan 8, 2007)

There's still quite a lot of work on the Brussels-Bruges improvement. There is still a stretch between Ghent and Bruges that is on 2 tracks and they haven't even begun construction yet - or at least I haven't seen any from the train. They're currently working on the conversion of the station at Aalter, that's coming along nicely.


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## VITORIA MAN (Jan 31, 2013)

EMArg said:


> ^^
> 
> 
> Video:


it looks like a soviet station


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## btrs (Jan 24, 2016)

Sorry, but I have to protest here. If you want a better example of a "Soviet" station in Belgium, go to Brussels-Midi. Even we are ashamed that *the MAIN station* in Belgium still has abominable platforms in the domestic part. And also the "newer" part for the HSTs (built 1993-1996) is starting to show wear and tear now..

Bruges on the other hand was completely renewed and rebuilt from 2007 onwards, the only "old" part is the original station building. Everything else is completely new.

The problem with Belgian station projects is this: SNCB/city councils let stations fall into disrepair. Then they plan a huge renovation (like Bruges, Oostende) or even a complete new building (Liège-Guillemins, Leuven, Mons, Mechelen, ...). Given Belgian bureaucracy the project takes 15 years to complete (Leuven being a prime example, even up until last year not all elevators on the platform overpass were constructed!), if it even gets to completion. Namur still lacks its outer cladding on the platform side (now just plain concrete bunkers) and also the bus station on the roof of the station is still not completed.
And then, rinse and repeat.

The better method is clearly the German one: instead of building those megalomania projects (please ignore Hamburg-Diebsteich/Altona and Stuttgart 21 for now), SNCB should go towards a periodic maintenance approach. It's easy to build new things or buy new things, the hard part is to maintain them. But in the long run, maintaining existing stations is far less disruptive then to go through a 20 year cycle where another main station is a building pit for 15 years. And travellers have to put up with delays, diversions etc for such a long time.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

btrs said:


> The problem with Belgian station projects is this: SNCB/city councils let stations fall into disrepair. Then they plan a huge renovation


This begs the question: Why do they do it like this? Why little to no maintenance?


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## VITORIA MAN (Jan 31, 2013)

btrs said:


> Sorry, but I have to protest here. If you want a better example of a "Soviet" station in Belgium, go to Brussels-Midi. Even we are ashamed that *the MAIN station* in Belgium still has abominable platforms in the domestic part. And also the "newer" part for the HSTs (built 1993-1996) is starting to show wear and tear now..
> 
> Bruges on the other hand was completely renewed and rebuilt from 2007 onwards, the only "old" part is the original station building. Everything else is completely new.
> 
> ...


i meant the architecture reminded me a soviet station


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Puinkabouter said:


> There's still quite a lot of work on the Brussels-Bruges improvement. There is still a stretch between Ghent and Bruges that is on 2 tracks and they haven't even begun construction yet - or at least I haven't seen any from the train. They're currently working on the conversion of the station at Aalter, that's coming along nicely.


You can still count on some 5 years of work. By that time there should be continuous 4 tracks between Gent and Brugge, and probably also 200 km/h between Brussels and Brugge, along with ETCS, like we already have between Brussels and Leuven today.


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