# comparing and celebrating the world's most diverse cities



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

Can any non-torontonians back up what KGB has said? 

It sounds to me like Toronto has the potential to be the most multicultural metropolis, but right now it's just the city itself that stands out, with the metro area as a whole still majority-white by quite a large percentage.

Los Angeles county is 31% white (non-hispanic), with hispanics accounting for 44%. So 75% of the county is either white or hispanic. I can't find a comparison for the Toronto CMA as for percentage white, but I would guess that it was close to 75% white-only, going by those figures earlier posted on the canadian census site.

KGB, to respond to your comment about Poles, Jews, and Italians.. I think it is silly to _not_ look at things in a white/non-white way. Across the globe there is an intense, marked difference between the quality of living among white people vs. non-white. Maybe if you were arguing for New York circa 1910...

But I get that Toronto CMA's immigration (or is it the city of Toronto? I need to clear this up..) is almost 80% non-white now, so the ethnic makeup of the area should be changing rapidly. 

It seems like Toronto could be a model for other cities, if it is true what people are saying about the degree of tolerance and assimilation.

However, one aspect that hasn't been discussed is:

Does the size (population) of an urban area reflect its relevance as a multicultural metropolis?

i.e., does the fact that Toronto is much smaller than London, Los Angeles, or New york make any difference?


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Can any non-torontonians back up what KGB has said?



So, you're more likely to be correct if you aren't from Toronto...is this the new logic they are teaching the kids today?




> It sounds to me like Toronto has the potential to be the most multicultural metropolis, but right now it's just the city itself that stands out, with the metro area as a whole still majority-white by quite a large percentage.


Actually, just going on stats, the 416 can actually be beat by certain 905 areas.

Please, you need a sound understanding of the figures involved before making such statement. I doubt you do...you sound like one of those people who don't have any facts, but possess some sort of "gut feeling" about Toronto. Aside from pure numbers, you have to experience Toronto first hand to understand it.





> KGB, to respond to your comment about Poles, Jews, and Italians.. I think it is silly to not look at things in a white/non-white way.



Then I'd say those people really have no grasp of what "diversity" is.





KGB


----------



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Many of Toronto's suburbs are racially diverse themselves...my extended families who live in Brampton and Mississauga didn't seem homogeneous by any definition...I believe that most immigrants move to the suburbs now. 

The size of an urban area matters when in comparison, but I really don't think that should be the only way to determine it's relevance. Toronto is relevant because of the size and proportion of immigration that it has had in the past and currently.

Then again, these question are best asked to a Toronto forumer, I can't speak for the city since I don't even live in Canada. All I am doing is picking straws from past experiences and statistics.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

KGB said:


> So, you're more likely to be correct if you aren't from Toronto...is this the new logic they are teaching the kids today?


No.. it's just that you inherently have a bias coming from Toronto, and had made boosterish claims such as "no city can compare with Toronto." So I was just wondering if other people who had a wider perspective could chime in on this.




KGB said:


> Please, you need a sound understanding of the figures involved before making such statement. I doubt you do...you sound like one of those people who don't have any facts, but possess some sort of "gut feeling" about Toronto. Aside from pure numbers, you have to experience Toronto first hand to understand it.


Right, and I admitted that I didn't have the numbers. Hence me asking questions. I was trying to make sense of the facts and statements. Notice that I said "it sounds like," not "it is." I am definitely planning on visiting Toronto and it is by far the most intriguing "diverse metro" to me, aside from the one I currently live in. 

I really wasn't trying to be confrontational or to dismiss what you had written. I'm sorry if it came off that way. . 


However, I do think my white/non-white point is still valid. White people are a small, privileged minority in this world and I think diversity among white ethnic groups is much less relevant to the globalizing world and offers much less progressive potential. All white ethnic groups have become assimilated within Europe and the "new first world" (canada, US, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia). The question now is how can we bring other non-white ethnic groups into the culture of the first world (Japan is one of the few exceptions to the white-dominated first world, and also tends to have less cultural influence).


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

Also, can someone tell me what the primary industries of Toronto are? What growth is fueling the immigration?


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> No.. it's just that you inherently have a bias coming from Toronto



A bias against what...facts? I have no interest in promoting falsities, whether it "looks good" on Toronto or otherwise.





> and had made boosterish claims such as "no city can compare with Toronto."



Uh...you want to point out these boosterish claims, and what you think I meant by them.





> Notice that I said "it sounds like," not "it is."


hmmm....it certainly had a skeptical theme to it. For a city that has as much evidence to support it as Toronto, it certainly seems to garner an awful amount of skeptisism not consistant with the evidence. I think it's more a case of people just not being able to accept it, rather than Torontonians wanting it to make it out to be more than it actually is. 





> However, I do think my white/non-white point is still valid.



Well, I'm not saying it's "invalid", especially if we want to look at macro issues on a global scale. But in terms of summing up Toronto's particular brand of "diversity", this would be a minor chapter in the story at best.

When I hear people sum up Toronto by saying..."it's not diverse..it's like 60% white people", I will pretty much dismiss this as uninformed chatter.




KGB


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> does the fact that Toronto is much smaller than London, Los Angeles, or New york make any difference?



mmm...I think when you reach a certain critical mass, the difference in population isn't a major factor anymore...they are all "big" cities. Also, it's important to realize all this is happening in a relatively compact area in Toronto. How a city "feels" in terms of diversity is better percieved on a small "on the street" fashion, as opposed to looking at statistics for a giant "metro".

As a person living in Parkdale, I will have a very different perception of "diversity" or multiculturalism on a day-to-day basis, than a person living in Oakville.




KGB


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

KGB,

I'm seriously not trying to start shit here.

The truth is, Los Angeles, Toronto, London, and New York are all _exceptionally_ diverse places. There is not a clear answer to which is "most diverse," or even which is "more diverse." So in order to understand the differences between their "brands" of diversities, I'm trying to get a lot of information. I completely agree with you that Toronto is incredibly diverse. However, I'm trying to get a feel for what the differences are between it and my place of residence, LA. So far, I haven't seen anything that gives a clear demographic picture of the Toronto CMA.. I know that you can never compare apples and apples with global cities, but I would like to get a better understanding of Toronto besides the fact that it is very diverse. I already know that. 

Do you have stats that show the breakdown of the Toronto CMA in terms of race or ethnicity, not nationality? I think this would give me a better idea of how the metro area is composed.


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> I'm seriously not trying to start shit here.



And I seriously don't think you are either. Trust me, I capable of much crustier replies when I think people are. LOL





> Do you have stats that show the breakdown of the Toronto CMA in terms of race or ethnicity, not nationality? I think this would give me a better idea of how the metro area is composed.



Can I make another suggestion? Let's put away the sterile stats for a moment, and concentrate on the "flavour".

Where I think the difference between how it's played out in say Toronto and LA for instance, is not in the raw numbers (which may give the wrong impression they are similar), but in how it all interacts on a personal level.

Toronto as i said, is a compact place in terms of where people actually live...people tend to live in higher density situations (in some cases, higher than european city densities), which puts people in a more interactive position with "other" people around them. 

And when there is no segregation, or tensions between these people, the flavour of the diversity is much different than places where people live in areas of less density, less interaction with the people around them, and where segregation and racial/cultural/economic tensions are higher. There are tell-tale signs...look at the diversity and the way it all gets packed into a small area, yet the crime rate is relatively small, especially compared to US cities.

One of the things I love about living in Toronto is not just the cultural diversity i see going on, but the fact that people of other cultures seem so interested in partaking in cultures other than their own.

To me, if you want to see Toronto at work on a small scale, I recomend a visit to Kensington. It pretty much sums it up in a way you can feel that you won't get looking at some Statcan figures.




KGB


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

dweebo2220 said:


> It is the second largest English-speaking city in the world


That would be London.



> It is the world’s second largest Spanish speaking city


That would be Buenos Aires.



> It has the largest Armenian population outside of Armenia


That would be Moscow.



> It has the second largest Chinese population outside of China


Very unlikely.
Cities like Jakarta and Singapore come to mind.



Most of the others are not quite true either most likely...





> It has the largest concentration of Scientologists in the nation


I'll give you that one...


----------



## Epi (Jul 21, 2006)

dweebo2220 said:


> KGB,
> 
> I'm seriously not trying to start shit here.
> 
> ...


You have a weird way of seeing things. You basically said that LA is more diverse because it's 75% white (yes hispanic is white... they are western, they are descended from SPAIN which is CHRISTIAN mostly and they speak a LATIN derived language) while Toronto's 60% white is seemingly not diverse.

You are completely changing around the facts. The colour of skin really doesn't matter in Canada. In the US there is incredible tension about black or white or 'hispanic'. In Canada, and espeically in Toronto this really matters a LOT, LOT less. It is culture and nationality that are important, and which are celebrated.

The Jews may look white, but they have their own religion and their own customs. The Poles look white, but they are not exactly British and have little in common.

Even ignoring all this, Toronto has an incredible percentage of the population that isn't white. The statistics Canada chart I linked to is admittedly 6 years old now (from 2001). Unfortunately the stats from the 2006 census are not fully compiled yet so I could not find a more updated chart. The Toronto area has grown on average 100,000 people each year, and now is >10% larger (add 600,000 to 5 million people). This growth is fueled purely by immigration, and Canada's immigrants mostly come from places where white people generally aren't from.

LA is multicultural, but then again most major cities in the world are multicultural as well. Toronto has people born from over 180 countries represented, and I would wager so does London, Paris, New York and hell even Tokyo has a fair bit of each. But in Toronto, the major dominant group is being less and less important to the fact that in the younger generation, race is a non-issue.

In Toronto, it is not an issue to your getting a good job, getting into good schools, and getting respect in your community no matter what race, religion, or sexual orientation you are, but rather people are judged much more individually than anywhere else I have ever seen.

When we watch TV, people from all races are on TV, and it's not tokenism... it's just how it is. When we look at our local politicians, all races and backgrounds are represented, and it's just how it is.

True diversity is not about having lots of sheer numbers of certain groups, but how each group fits within the framework of the larger domain. In Toronto, you don't have a viet-town or Russian-town and even China-town is sort of fake because people are just mixed together all over the city, but yet still retain their cultural identity while living together.


Here's another statistic:
http://www.toronto.ca/quality_of_life/diversity.htm

As you can see, in 2001, only a bit more than 50% of all people in Toronto had a mother tongue of English. With the growth in the last 6 years, that number is probably <50% by now.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

ORiHS said:


> That would be London.
> That would be Buenos Aires.
> That would be Moscow.
> Very unlikely.
> ...


I took this from another website. I did not make it up. 
What you're getting confused by is that when they say "city" they weren't really referring to the distinct municipality of Los Angeles, they really mean metro area (compared to other metro areas). Most people say "city" to mean "metro" these days...

The only one I'm suspect of is the "second-largest spanish speaking _metro_" one...
The people who speak spanish as their primary language in LA cannot outnumber a metro like Buenos Aires.

Los Angeles metro is definitely larger than london metro, anyone knows that.

Yes, LA metro does have more armenians than Moscow metro. However, Moscow the _city_ does have more than any single city in the LA metro (though the cities of los angeles and Glendale are second and third, respectively, and Armenians live in many other cities and communities throughout LA metro).

The other ones are true as well. Sorry if you got confused by the "metro" issue.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

Epi said:


> You have a weird way of seeing things. You basically said that LA is more diverse because it's 75% white (yes hispanic is white... they are western, they are descended from SPAIN which is CHRISTIAN mostly and they speak a LATIN derived language) while Toronto's 60% white is seemingly not diverse.


Yes I agree that Hispanic is a crazy, unscientific term. However, you cannot deny that there is a fundamental difference between the opportunities afforded "brown" hispanics (which make up the vast majority of American and Canadian "hispanic" immigrants), and the minority of "white" hispanics in positions of power in Latin America. Also, those "white" hispanics come from nations that have worse economies than the whites of Europe.. so I don't think your point is valid. 

The reason I am interested in racial background more than nationality is because race is such a larger factor for opportunity than nationality, currently and historically. And this is _not_ just an issue in the US. I would believe that Canada would be slightly more tolerant and less racially-charged than the US. But I would like to see the racial breakdown to get a better understanding. 

Also, I never said Toronto was _not diverse_. I've seen the stats for the _city_ of Toronto, and it is indeed diverse. What I'd like to see is the metro area broken down into 




Epi said:


> You are completely changing around the facts. The colour of skin really doesn't matter in Canada. In the US there is incredible tension about black or white or 'hispanic'. In Canada, and espeically in Toronto this really matters a LOT, LOT less. It is culture and nationality that are important, and which are celebrated.....


I agree with you that the US has been diverse much longer than Canada has, and that this means that long-standing racial issues have had time to grow here.. Hopefully they won't in Canada! 
I'd still like to see the racial breakdown because it would really illustrate Toronto's tolerance. Remember that in iceland race is not as much of an issue, either.. 



Epi said:


> LA is multicultural, but then again most major cities in the world are multicultural as well. Toronto has people born from over 180 countries represented, and I would wager so does London, Paris, New York and hell even Tokyo has a fair bit of each. But in Toronto, the major dominant group is being less and less important to the fact that in the younger generation, race is a non-issue.
> 
> In Toronto, it is not an issue to your getting a good job, getting into good schools, and getting respect in your community no matter what race, religion, or sexual orientation you are, but rather people are judged much more individually than anywhere else I have ever seen.
> 
> ...


You obviously don't know anything about LA, but that doesn't mean I don't agree that Toronto might be a more tolerant place. I do need to see it for myself. 

What I'd really like is if there was someone who was not a Torontonian or an Angeleno, but who has lived in both cities recently. And hopefully who is from a non-white ethnic group... That might be too much to ask for...


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

I did a google search for "los angeles second largest spanish-speaking city in the world" and got tons of matches... I don't know who's doing this counting, but academia, authors, etc. all claim it to be so..


----------



## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

Toronto's prison population and its most-wanted criminals list are disproportionately black. Earlier this year, when a student was shot dead in a Toronto high school, it was pointed out that many of the schools in that area were also disproportionately black. I think there is definitely a level of social and economic stratification which affects black Canadians and African-Canadians. Certainly not to the same extent as in many US cities, but, I wouldn't call Toronto a utopic mixing bowl just yet.


----------



## ORiHS (Nov 25, 2006)

dweebo2220 said:


> I took this from another website. I did not make it up.
> What you're getting confused by is that when they say "city" they weren't really referring to the distinct municipality of Los Angeles, they really mean metro area (compared to other metro areas). Most people say "city" to mean "metro" these days...
> 
> The only one I'm suspect of is the "second-largest spanish speaking _metro_" one...
> ...


I'm not the one who is confused.

London metro (and in fact the ONLY official definition of a metro area for London -the one by the GLA-) is 18 million and is comparable to the US Census method of calculating a CSA.
Larger than LA...
(plus the fact that if LA is partly a Spanish speaking city -to make it "the 2nd Spanish speaking city"- not even the whole 17 million of the LA CSA should count, as part of those (4 million? more?) would be non English speaking.

Which brings us to the whole "2nd Spanish speaking city" thing...
I doubt LA has 13 million Spanish speakers. BA does.
Come to think of it...Madrid, Barcelona, Santiago, Bogota, Lima, Caracas, perhaps even Guadalajara all have more Spanish speakers than LA.

Moscow has 2 million Armenians. I doubt metro LA has that many. In fact I doubt the US has even 1/4 of that.


----------



## Epi (Jul 21, 2006)

dweebo2220 said:


> Yes I agree that Hispanic is a crazy, unscientific term. However, you cannot deny that there is a fundamental difference between the opportunities afforded "brown" hispanics (which make up the vast majority of American and Canadian "hispanic" immigrants), and the minority of "white" hispanics in positions of power in Latin America. Also, those "white" hispanics come from nations that have worse economies than the whites of Europe.. so I don't think your point is valid.
> 
> The reason I am interested in racial background more than nationality is because race is such a larger factor for opportunity than nationality, currently and historically. And this is _not_ just an issue in the US. I would believe that Canada would be slightly more tolerant and less racially-charged than the US. But I would like to see the racial breakdown to get a better understanding.


Well I'm just saying... that by lumping British, Italians, Polish and Jews together just because they appear superficially 'white' works just as well as me saying 'hispanic = white'. Honestly, just look at any history.. for instance, the Irish and the Italians used to be heavily discriminated against in New York City before they became part of the establishment even if they are white, and even if the Irish spoke English. Race really doesn't matter that much, and if you think it really matters so much, then you're not appreciating what it's like in Canada.


----------



## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

Most hispanics in the Los Angeles area definitely aren't white. Many came from Oaxaca, Chiapas, or from Honduras and El Salvador. There is a big distinction between the Spaniard-looking people you see on Mexican television, and 'los indios,' the darker, rounder-featured descendants of Mayans, Aztecs, African slaves, etc.


----------



## jeicow (Jul 18, 2005)

tablemtn said:


> Earlier this year, when a student was shot dead in a Toronto high school, it was pointed out that many of the schools in that area were also disproportionately black.


Wait, did you just say black = crime? Did you seriously just imply that? This is the first major school shooting in Toronto in god knows how many years. Does black mean that there is suddenly going to be crime in the area? Sure, the victim might have been black but we'll never know whether the actual perps were white/black/azn/brown since the Youth Criminal Justice Act prohibits their identity being released. From all the major media reports, the shooting was an accident b/c the kid and some of his friends were playing around with a gun they managed to get their hands on and wanted to see what it was like. I also believe the gun was eventually traced to being smuggled over the border by US-based gangs so if anything it more shows the impact US crime is having internationally. And btw, if anything, that school is more asian (korean/chinese/viet/thai) than it is black.


----------



## b13 (Jan 14, 2007)

I wouls just like to say that I live in Toronto and I can truly say that Toronto is a city like not other. Trust me, Toronto just feels like it's made of up bits and pieces of all different countries. There are so much festivals in Toronto and in Toronto's sub-urbs that celebrate the diversity in Toronto. 
When your walking down the street in Toronto you can just tell and feel that this city is a city of all residents of the world! Almost everything in Toronto and it's sub-urbs are diverse from politicians to restaurants to street and store signs! Toronto is truly a city that is to be looked up upon and not just because I live here but because the city works and leaves together without and violence because of cultural differences. I'm not saying that Toronto doesn't have problems because every city has problems but for a city the sized of Toronto and with all the different ethnic groups Toronto is one hell of a city to be proud of.


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

TenRot said:


> I have to first, this is not directed towards you or London, but is there a list of these 340 languages?
> 
> I ask this because the city of New York constantly says that there are 180 languages spoken there and they don't have a list at all, at least one that I can't find. I can't even think of that much languages in my head, let alone 340.


Well, there are many British accents and regional slang. If we consider each of them as a language, then that already makes about 100 languages. :lol:

Anyway, more seriously, I think it would be really a lot more interesting if this thread was about discussing of multi-culturalism in major world cities, rather than making of it another pissing contest. Dropping figures that are rather disputable have a quite limited interest IMHO.


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Holland said:


> When I think of a Canadian person, I don't just picture a white, British-background person in my mind.


Oh really ? Well... why have you taken this specific example then ? 

Don't get me wrong, the most famous French people worldwide are predominantly football players or other sportsmen. Most of them are either Black or Arab, but that doesn't change the fact that most people still imagine a Frenchman to be some kind of white guy with a cigarette, a beret and a baguette. We shouldn't be naive, perceptions and clichés are hard-living.


----------



## Holland (Mar 2, 2006)

I chose that because that's the only comparison I have to another country. Canadians are so mixed that I don't think of a white person curling and eating a donut. There just is not a set culture or "proper way to be".


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

Could you recall me who was the last Canadian Prime Minister who wasn't of White British or White French descent ?

Listen to me. My point isn't to say that you need to be white to be properly Canadian or anything racist like that. Of course there are millions of non-white Canadians, just like there are millions of non-white Americans, millions of non-white French people, millions of non-white British people. However, these countries are all predominently ruled by white people.

As long as there won't be black men (or women btw) being elected as Prime Minister of Canada regularly, let me tell you that it remains indeed a "proper way to be". I'm not trying to be rude with you and I'm glad that integration of immigrants work well in Canada, I just want you to idealize a bit less the whole thing.


----------



## Joshapd (May 21, 2004)

European cities are hardly represented here but city's as Paris, London, Marseilles, Amsterdam are really diverse too.


----------



## b13 (Jan 14, 2007)

Metropolitan said:


> Could you recall me who was the last Canadian Prime Minister who wasn't of White British or White French descent ?
> 
> Listen to me. My point isn't to say that you need to be white to be properly Canadian or anything racist like that. Of course there are millions of non-white Canadians, just like there are millions of non-white Americans, millions of non-white French people, millions of non-white British people. However, these countries are all predominently ruled by white people.
> 
> As long as there won't be black men (or women btw) being elected as Prime Minister of Canada regularly, let me tell you that it remains indeed a "proper way to be". I'm not trying to be rude with you and I'm glad that integration of immigrants work well in Canada, I just want you to idealize a bit less the whole thing.


Well maybe the "prime minister" role is ruled by white people but I can assure you that many other ministers or politicans are of all different race. Just watch the news here and example is the new governor general of Canada she is african american. Canada is diverse and we don't really have a "canadian culture" because we are such a young country that we never developed one and I think that's the reason why immigrants feel comfortable here because they can bring their culture here and enjoy it! You see the canadian culture is the world's culture. That's just how i see it!


----------



## Epi (Jul 21, 2006)

Metropolitan said:


> Well, that's mainly because it's an easy trap for English speakers to limit their world perception strictly to its English speaking areas. For instance a place you haven't mention which is also extremely diverse would be Hong Kong, China. Or even Singapore now that I think about it.


Have you actually BEEN to Hong Kong? I was born there, and I can tell you that Hong Kong is absolutely nowhere near diverse. Sure there's always a token non-Chinese, non-tourist person when you look around, but diverse compared to London, Paris, NYC, etc? Give me a break.

I'd say from my own travels that London, NYC, Paris and Amsterdam are numerically extremely diverse, but that the diversity feels very different. Paris is diverse, except in my time there, it seemed like the people were extremely segregated by neighbourhood, and it seemed like only tourists and white Frenchmen had money or good jobs. Similarly, looking at people in various jobs in NYC, London, and Amsterdam yet again segregation was quite apparent, even if superficially there are lots of different types of people living there. These are things which are extremely hard to quantify and measure, but become extremely apparent once you actually travel to all these places and see with your own eyes.


----------



## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Where do you been ? In Louvres, bank of Seine, tour Eiffel, Invalides, Notre Dame...
Actually these districts are dead, parisian don't go here, execpt those wich work with tourism.

Some of district where Parisians go.
*Champs Elysee*








*Les Halles*

























Actually a lot of non white have good jobs, you can see them in the business districts like Opera, La Defense, Val de Seine... or in the subway on rush hours. I know it my mother is black and she has a very good job.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

Thanks for the responses (except for the odd ignorant jackass comment here and there..).

I've definitely come to understand Paris and Toronto a lot better from this.. Also, I'm really looking forward to visiting queens when i visit some friends in NYC soon.

I did notice a strong anti-LA bias (something that I notice throughout most of the world, actually). I agree that that list I posted was pretty boosterish, but it's not the first time I've read most of those statements. I've never questioned the Armenia one (the armenian community here says it all the time), but I agree the spanish-speaking one is bogus. The second-largest english-speaking one needs some thought.. but LA definitely is bigger than London in everything I've ever seen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_by_population). Though some of those statements might be exaggerating, just google "los angeles most multicultural metropolis" and you'll see that it is often proclaimed (more often by outsiders than angelenos). There might be an _over_emphasis of LA's multiculturalism, and I would propose that it might be in reaction to the common perception that LA is not diverse. Writers, sociologists, theorists, etc. might just be leaping to the superlative in an act of sensationalism because they know it's controversial.. 

I think the reality is that there are _many_ incredibly ethnically diverse and tolerant and multicultural places in the world. However, what I was trying to do get at is the "big" five or six cities (or however many) that really are extraordinary for their diversity, and to understand how they differ in their own "brand" of diversity. I'm not interested per se (though I think it is interesting for discussion) in multicultural neighborhoods in Tokyo, Hong Kong, or other cities that are simply not anywhere _near_ the diversity of where I live now.

That said, I think this thread is a great place to post images of diversity in _any_ city. It is always something beautiful and inspiring. What I'm _personally_ looking for, though, is comparisons of places that are in fact comparable to where I am now. 

Also, I found this while googling.. 
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=414960

I don't want this to be a city vs. city thing, seriously. But some understanding of the magnitude of diversity in various world cities needs to be acknowledged.. 

And again, that's just for me and my search for another equally inspiring place. If you're from Oklahoma City and you have an interesting diversity story to share, I would love you to post it here.


By the way, the only other places I've ever seen described as the _most_ diverse/multicultural/etc. urban area in the world are New York and Toronto. I guess it's just ol' British humility that's keeps London from being proclaimed as such.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Epi said:


> Have you actually BEEN to Hong Kong? I was born there, and I can tell you that Hong Kong is absolutely nowhere near diverse. Sure there's always a token non-Chinese, non-tourist person when you look around, but diverse compared to London, Paris, NYC, etc? Give me a break.
> 
> I'd say from my own travels that London, NYC, Paris and Amsterdam are numerically extremely diverse, but that the diversity feels very different. Paris is diverse, except in my time there, it seemed like the people were extremely segregated by neighbourhood, and it seemed like only tourists and white Frenchmen had money or good jobs. Similarly, looking at people in various jobs in NYC, London, and Amsterdam yet again segregation was quite apparent, even if superficially there are lots of different types of people living there. These are things which are extremely hard to quantify and measure, but become extremely apparent once you actually travel to all these places and see with your own eyes.


From a minority's perspective, HK is *diverse*. Ok it may not be as diversed as New York, LA or even London and yes 95% of the population is Chinese. But the city has a large expat community and also communities from South and South East Asia.


----------



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

The key difference with Hong Kong's 'diversity' is how these non-Chinese communities adapt. Basically, they either mingle in their circle or have to integrate with the Chinese majority. The lack of integration among the non-expat groups isn't exactly a showcase of diversity. Yes, there are a lot of non-Chinese races in Hong Kong, but for some, if they want to survive, they have to act like locals and adapt local customs. For example, Filipino housemaids either have to speak good English and/or learn Cantonese to get a job. They won't likely be hired if they can't cook Cantonese cuisine, etc.


----------



## Coneslammer (Jun 26, 2006)

I haven't seen anyone mention Sydney yet. 26 percent of people speak a language other than english at home and over 1 third were born overseas.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

hkskyline said:


> The key difference with Hong Kong's 'diversity' is how these non-Chinese communities adapt. Basically, they either mingle in their circle or have to integrate with the Chinese majority. The lack of integration among the non-expat groups isn't exactly a showcase of diversity. Yes, there are a lot of non-Chinese races in Hong Kong, but for some, if they want to survive, they have to act like locals and adapt local customs. For example, Filipino housemaids either have to speak good English and/or learn Cantonese to get a job. They won't likely be hired if they can't cook Cantonese cuisine, etc.


There are some who mingle with the Chinese majority whether there local HKers or those from The Mainland. There will be some intermixing like the minorities. Filipino youths in HK mingle with other minorities such as those from India or Nepal. Them mingling with Chinese can be a problem if they don't know how to speak Cantonese unless the local can speak English. Most expats hangout with their fellow expats, doesn't matter what country the expat is from. There are at times that relationships can develop with expats and local HK Chinese. But when I look at it, most hangout on their own. 

and old one but hey


----------



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

WANCH said:


> There are some who mingle with the Chinese majority whether there local HKers or those from The Mainland. With will be some intermixing like the minorities. Filipino youths in HK mingle with other minorities such as those from India or Nepal. Them mingling with Chinese can be a problem if they don't know how to speak Cantonese unless the local can speak English. Most expats hangout with their fellow expats, doesn't matter what country the expat is from. There are at times that relationships can develop with expats and local HK Chinese. But when I look at it, most hangout on their own.


That's the point I'm trying to stress. Hong Kong is not really a diverse city when looking at the numbers. Having tens of thousands of people from particular countries is meaningless since the predominant cultural spheres in Hong Kong are Chinese and expat, while the rest live within their insulated circles. 

Rather, Hong Kong's diversity comes in how the Chinese majority are accepting foreign influences, such as celebrating Western holidays, the bagpipes that play at major celebration events, listening to Korean pop songs (ie. the madness when Rain visited recently), etc. That doesn't show on population surveys, but are more meaningful in assessing just how diverse Hong Kong is.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

hkskyline said:


> That's the point I'm trying to stress. Hong Kong is not really a diverse city when looking at the numbers. Having tens of thousands of people from particular countries is meaningless since the predominant cultural spheres in Hong Kong are Chinese and expat, while the rest live within their insulated circles.
> 
> Rather, Hong Kong's diversity comes in how the Chinese majority are accepting foreign influences, such as celebrating Western holidays, the bagpipes that play at major celebration events, listening to Korean pop songs (ie. the madness when Rain visited recently), etc. That doesn't show on population surveys, but are more meaningful in assessing just how diverse Hong Kong is.


The Chinese and expat culture in HK are dominant since they have the means like *media and resources*. Those those who are not in this sphere, they have the resources to be heard. 

Although RTHK have some radio programs that cater to Filipinos in HK and its the same with HK's Indian community.


----------



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

WANCH said:


> The Chinese and expat culture in HK are dominant since they have the means like *media and resources*. Those those who are not in this sphere, they have the resources to be heard.
> 
> Although RTHK have some radio programs that cater to Filipinos in HK and its the same with HK's Indian community.


That's because the Chinese and expat communities have the clout and the numbers, whereas everyone else has to integrate into one of those circles or be marginalised into their own groups. That's not exactly diversity, which is why looking at demographics is not the right method of understanding what diversity in the Hong Kong context is about.


----------



## cariocas27 (Aug 5, 2003)

dweebo2220 said:


> I found this, which can give you a good impression of the diversity of the LA area if you are unfamiliar:
> 
> (from some religious missionary website== http://mosaicalliance.com/leadership/microcosm)
> 
> It has the third largest Japanese population outside of Japan


Ummm... that's not right... that would be São Paulo Brasil... 

http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/latin/brazil/index.html


----------



## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

TenRot said:


> I have to first, this is not directed towards you or London, but is there a list of these 340 languages?
> 
> I ask this because the city of New York constantly says that there are 180 languages spoken there and they don't have a list at all, at least one that I can't find. I can't even think of that much languages in my head, let alone 340.


Nope to be honest there are probably far more languages in London. The 340 figure came from a survey they did in a South london primary school, they found the children spoke well over 300 languages.

Basically London draws its immigrants from some of the most linguistically diverse regions in the world. Throughout the 1990s UK was the no1 destination for the worlds asylum seekers (now that title goes between France and Spain), many coming from the conflict zones in Africa (speaking 600 languages). Even bigger waves came from the expanding EU (50 languages) , alongside the 'traditional' migrants from ex-Empire, notably South Asia (600 languages).
The trend for the current decade looks towards Latin America and E/SE Asia.

NB These are languages we're talking about, not dialects (which would be in the thousands).


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Could you recall me who was the last Canadian Prime Minister who wasn't of White British or White French descent ?



Can you recall the last prime minister from Toronto? LOL

Our head of state (Vice Regal) mind you, is currently a woman, black, an immigrant from Haiti, english not her first language, and in an inter-ratial marriage.










She replaced Adrienne Clarkson...a chineese refugee, also a woman, and also in an inter-ratial marriage.










But I really don't see how federal politics has a lot to do with Toronto's diversity as a city.




KGB


----------



## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

I think the best thing about London is despite over 60 percent coming from over 300 communities, there arent any ghettoes where one ethnic group predominates. This isnt to say there arent racial tensions or that its a multicultural nirvana, but the centuries old tradition of housing rich and poor etc, exacerbated by a frenetic buy-and-sell property market today allows for a huge amount of mixing (and contrary to other parts of the country where urban areas were heavily zoned by town planners on a postwar American model). Nowadays among the major communities more people marry outside their community than within -among Black, E European and E Asians, among S Asians its 30 percent. The fastest growing minority is 'mixed race'.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

cariocas27 said:


> Ummm... that's not right... that would be São Paulo Brasil...
> 
> http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/latin/brazil/index.html


_LA has the *third* largest Japanese population outside of Japan_


----------



## rousseau (Nov 4, 2005)

b13 said:


> Just watch the news here and example is the new governor general of Canada she is african american.


"African American?"


----------



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

She is a Canadian of Caribbean descent, not African American (not even American).


----------



## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

But isn't the governor-general an appointed - rather than an elected - position?


----------



## rousseau (Nov 4, 2005)

tablemtn said:


> But isn't the governor-general an appointed - rather than an elected - position?


Are you implying that the choice of our current governor-general is somewhat akin to having a token black character in a group of white friends in a bad film or television show?

If so, then you would be correct.


----------



## rocky (Apr 20, 2005)

you are all obcessed by race. Looks like diversity is the new moto. I hate that. A diverse city is not better than a uniform city, its just different


----------



## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

I actualy agree, I got nothing against diversity, I am against all forms of discrimination against ethnic minorities, but the despise of homogenous cities is ridiculous. I personnaly find Tokyo much more fascinating than Toronto...


----------



## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

I don't think anyone is arguing that they despise homogenous cities, but I would argue that diversity is more interesting than homogenous unless you are a tourist. If I went to Paris, I want to see French culture and French people. If I went to Tokyo, I want to see Japanese culture and Japanese people. 

I find Tokyo much more fascinating than Paris...because Tokyo is so homogenous and different from my own culture. Living in Tokyo, however, would eventually make me crave diversity.


----------



## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

I wouldn't say that for Tokyo.
Tokyo isn't multicultural but it is very diverse city.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

One thing I was thinking about, what do we think are the best diversity "districts" or integrated areas in the world's cities? Like for example, in southeast LA County there is a city called Artesia where, according to this article http://azbilingualed.org/AABE Site/AABE--News 2004/diversity_spoken_in_39_languages.htm, 39 of the 40 most-spoken languages in the united states are represented. According to the article that puts it up there with the most linguistically diverse census tracts in the nation. 

This place is mostly known for it's south asian population (a relative rarity in southern california), but check out the demographics on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artesia,_California
and you get a much more diverse picture.

You could easily drive by this place and dismiss is as just another LA suburb, but it's quite a fascinating place and I think it should get recognition for that. 

I would propose that Queens would also be highlighted as an especially diverse district. Where else do you guys think stands out?


----------



## Westsidelife (Nov 26, 2005)

The combination of Los Angeles' ethnic, religious, cultural, and socioeconomic diversity is unmatched.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

Here's a great list I found.. Look at how much Hawaii dominates!! This is based on which cities have the smallest largest racial group. Los Angeles (the city) does not make this list because 44% of it is latino/hispanic. But this list is definitely dominated by hawaii and California.

Top 100 Most Racially Diverse Cities (pop. 5,000+) (from most diverse to less diverse

city, state, (percentage of largest racial group, tot. pop.)

Waipio Acres, Hawaii (17.2%, pop. 5,298) 

Halawa, Hawaii (20.2%, pop. 13,891) 

Wahiawa, Hawaii (20.7%, pop. 16,151) 

Ahuimanu, Hawaii (20.7%, pop. 8,506) 

Cerritos, California (21.4%, pop. 51,488) 

Makaha, Hawaii (21.9%, pop. 7,753) 

Makakilo City, Hawaii (22.7%, pop. 13,156) 

Wailuku, Hawaii (22.8%, pop. 12,296) 

Honolulu, Hawaii (23.3%, pop. 371,657) 

Waipio, Hawaii (23.4%, pop. 11,672) 

Kaneohe, Hawaii (23.6%, pop. 34,970) 

Milpitas, California (23.8%, pop. 62,698) 

Maili, Hawaii (23.9%, pop. 5,943) 

Union City, California (24.0%, pop. 66,869) 

Mililani Town, Hawaii (24.9%, pop. 28,608) 

Hercules, California (25.0%, pop. 19,488) 

Kapaa, Hawaii (26.1%, pop. 9,472) 

Hilo, Hawaii (26.7%, pop. 40,759) 

Waianae, Hawaii (27.3%, pop. 10,506) 

Lihue, Hawaii (28.2%, pop. 5,674) 

Jersey City, New Jersey (28.3%, pop. 240,055) 

Walnut, California (28.6%, pop. 30,004) 

Waimea, Hawaii (28.8%, pop. 7,028) 

Waimalu, Hawaii (28.8%, pop. 29,371) 

Rowland Heights, California (29.0%, pop. 48,553) 

West Carson, California (29.4%, pop. 21,138) 

Waihee-Waiehu, Hawaii (30.3%, pop. 7,310) 

Hawaiian Paradise Park, Hawaii (30.4%, pop. 7,051) 

Vallejo, California (30.4%, pop. 116,760) 

Lahaina, Hawaii (30.7%, pop. 9,118) 

Diamond Bar, California (31.0%, pop. 56,287) 

Pearl City, Hawaii (31.1%, pop. 30,976) 

East San Gabriel, California (31.1%, pop. 14,512) 

Daly City, California (31.6%, pop. 103,621) 

Pukalani, Hawaii (31.7%, pop. 7,380) 

Kahului, Hawaii (31.7%, pop. 20,146) 

Mission Bend, Texas (31.8%, pop. 30,831) 

Gardena, California (31.8%, pop. 57,746) 

South San Francisco, California (31.8%, pop. 60,552) 

Bridgeport, Connecticut (31.9%, pop. 139,529) 

Bridgeport, Connecticut (31.9%, pop. 139,529) 

Aiea, Hawaii (31.9%, pop. 9,019) 

Pittsburg, California (32.2%, pop. 56,769) 

Ashland, California (32.5%, pop. 20,793) 

Stockton, California (32.5%, pop. 243,771) 

Garden Grove, California (32.5%, pop. 165,196) 

Freeport, New York (33.5%, pop. 43,783) 

San Gabriel, California (33.6%, pop. 39,804) 

Parkway-South Sacramento, California (34.0%, pop. 36,468) 

Hayward, California (34.2%, pop. 140,030) 

Carson, California (34.9%, pop. 89,730) 

New York, New York (35.0%, pop. 8,008,278) 

Florin, California (35.0%, pop. 27,653) 

Ives Estates, Florida (35.1%, pop. 17,586) 

Bayview-Montalvin, California (35.2%, pop. 5,004) 

Alhambra, California (35.5%, pop. 85,804) 

Dallas, Texas (35.6%, pop. 1,188,580) 

Stafford, Texas (35.6%, pop. 15,681) 

Oakland, California (35.7%, pop. 399,484) 

Long Beach, California (35.8%, pop. 461,522) 

Signal Hill, California (35.8%, pop. 9,333) 

Central Islip, New York (35.8%, pop. 31,950) 

San Jose, California (36.0%, pop. 894,943) 

Richmond, California (36.1%, pop. 99,216) 

Westminster, California (36.2%, pop. 88,207) 

La Palma, California (36.3%, pop. 15,408) 

Newburgh, New York (36.3%, pop. 28,259) 

Seaside, California (36.4%, pop. 31,696) 

Kailua, Hawaii (36.4%, pop. 9,870) 

North Lauderdale, Florida (36.7%, pop. 32,264) 

Navasota, Texas (36.8%, pop. 6,789) 

Village Park, Hawaii (36.8%, pop. 9,625) 

Chicago, Illinois (36.8%, pop. 2,896,016) 

White Oak, Maryland (37.1%, pop. 20,973) 

Bailey's Crossroads, Virginia (37.1%, pop. 23,166) 

New Haven, Connecticut (37.4%, pop. 123,626) 

New Haven, Connecticut (37.4%, pop. 123,626) 

Forest Park, Georgia (37.4%, pop. 21,447) 

La Presa, California (37.4%, pop. 32,721) 

Houston, Texas (37.4%, pop. 1,953,631) 

Fair Oaks, Georgia (37.5%, pop. 8,443) 

North Las Vegas, Nevada (37.6%, pop. 115,488) 

Temple City, California (37.7%, pop. 33,377) 

Marina, California (37.8%, pop. 25,101) 

Chicago Heights, Illinois (37.9%, pop. 32,776) 

Blue Island, Illinois (37.9%, pop. 23,463) 

Makawao, Hawaii (38.0%, pop. 6,327) 

Diboll, Texas (38.0%, pop. 5,470) 

East Pasadena, California (38.1%, pop. 6,045) 

Buena Park, California (38.2%, pop. 78,282) 

Broadview-Pompano Park, Florida (38.2%, pop. 5,314) 

Hacienda Heights, California (38.3%, pop. 53,122) 

Artesia, California (38.3%, pop. 16,380) 

Lincolnia, Virginia (38.4%, pop. 15,788) 

Moreno Valley, California (38.4%, pop. 142,381) 

Riverdale Park, Maryland (38.5%, pop. 6,690) 

Lathrop, California (38.6%, pop. 10,445) 

Suisun City, California (38.6%, pop. 26,118) 

Bay Point, California (38.6%, pop. 21,534) 

Missouri City, Texas (38.6%, pop. 52,913)


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

I pretty much reject the whole concept of "race"...at least as far as how it is popularized in the USA... "whites" & "blacks" to give an example. I understand that in the US, the idea of assimilation (melting pot) has a much greater influence, and "blacks" constitute a different idea than say in Toronto, where the vast majority of "blacks" are immigrants from varying "black" countries, rather than being Canadian born to Canadian born parents.

It's the whole idea of just skin colour that is the problem....a lot of "asians" are as "white", if not whiter than I am. The term caucaision would be better, but even then, it's still useless, as that is just too big of a catch-all to have any real meaning. The differences between caucaisions are a big as the difference between a chineese and an Ethiopean....yet we somehow think the distinction between "asian" and "black" is more important for purley superficial reasons.

If superficial appearance were so important, than we should just forget about something as minor as skin pigment or eye structure, and worry about far more noticeable things...like the difference between a "goth" and a "preppy"...regardless of what colour their skin is.






> Nope to be honest there are probably far more languages in London. The 340 figure came from a survey they did in a South london primary school, they found the children spoke well over 300 languages.



I think this is all a moot point....when we are talking about New York, Toronto, London, etc, I think EVERY language, culture, religion, etc, etc on the planet is represented...nobody has an edge there....there is no language being spoken in London that isn't in those other cities as well, although the numbers who are doing it may vary from city to city.





> you are all obcessed by race. Looks like diversity is the new moto. I hate that. A diverse city is not better than a uniform city, its just different



Well, personally, I do not measure diversity in terms of "race"...I think I explained it above.

In general terms, the level of diversity of an urban area is not the determining factor of whether anyplace is "better" than another. I agree with the poster who would find Tokyo more "facinating" than Toronto. That is of course his perspective (whatever that is). As a Torontonian, I would find Tokyo more facinating as well...simply because it is a very different experience than I am used to. But that's from the standpoint of "visiting"....if I had to spend the rest of my life living there, I might find it somewhat less facinating.

But, to play devil's advocate, you could argue the superiority of the "diverse" city over the homogenious one, in that social change evolves better in an environment of diversity, because tolerance of all these differences is the stimuli if you want a positive, stable environment.

Which brings me to my other point regarding Toronto and LA specifically. We can talk about statistics, but what's more important is the result of all this diversity. One thing I have noticed, is that when you hear about Toronto's diversity, it is basically unanimously spoken of in positive terms...it is something that is embraced and encouraged, and spoken of with pride. 

Not that this isn't an element of LA as well, but the reality is, that when we hear about the diversity of LA, it is usually in the form of crime, gangs, riots, and "problems" associated with too many hispanics, etc, etc. We can blame the media for that i suppose, but all things even, one is portrayed in a much better light than the other. I get the "general" impression that it is percieved as an asset in Toronto, and a liabilty in LA.

The other problem associated with LA, is that when it is discussed, it usually refers to a geographical area of such immense proportions, it really bears no resemblance to the area we refer to as "Toronto"...the "city" or the "suburban" part. And in terms of actually "experiencing" this diversity, it is actually possible to do it in a small area like Toronto, as opposed to this LA "metro" which is the size of Belgium or something.

I agree with Isaidso...regardless of stats, which may "appear" to put Toronto and New York in the same league in terms of diversity, multiculturalism, whatever...I've been there, and it "feels" NOTICEABLY less "multicultural" than Toronto. 

And I attribute this mostly to the far greater pressure to assimilate to an "American" culture, and the fact that Toronto's population has a higher percentage of "recent" immigrants, in an atmosphere that not only doesn't pressure you to assimilate...it encourages you NOT to.




KGB


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

KGB--
What is the most diverse residential neighborhood of Toronto?

Also, in response to your point that LA is such a large geographical area.. 
I checked on wikipedia (maybe not the best source, I admit) and the urban area of LA is 2.5 times as large as Toronto's, yet it has more than 3 times as many people... So they actually are quite comparable. You could cut a section out of LA that was the size of Toronto's UA, and they'd be statistically quite similar, population-wise.


----------



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

The thing about the "diversity" of the two Connecticut cities (New Haven, Bridgeport) on that list of most diverse cities is only because the three major groups (Black, White, and Hispanic) nearly equal each other in numbers, not because they are beacons of diversity...

They are segregated as hell, like most US Northeast cities. hno:


----------



## Ian (Nov 26, 2006)

TenRot said:


> ...the three major groups (Black, White, and *Hispanic*)


Woww amazing!!! :lol: :lol: 

Here in my city we also have three major groups (Black, White, and *European*) :nuts:


----------



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

Oh god, no this again...damn. You guys are like clockwork. :lol: 

I will rephrase myself...the two major groups are Black, White, and Hispanic can be considered of any race.


----------



## icracked (Feb 15, 2007)

Top 100 Most Racially Diverse Cities (pop. 5,000+)

1. Waipio Acres, *Hawaii* (17.2%, pop. 5,298)
2. Halawa, *Hawaii* (20.2%, pop. 13,891)
3. Wahiawa, *Hawaii *(20.7%, pop. 16,151)
4. Ahuimanu, *Hawaii* (20.7%, pop. 8,506)
5. Cerritos, California (21.4%, pop. 51,488)
6. Makaha, *Hawaii *(21.9%, pop. 7,753)
7. Makakilo City, *Hawaii *(22.7%, pop. 13,156)
8. Wailuku, *Hawaii* (22.8%, pop. 12,296)
9. Honolulu, Hawaii (23.3%, pop. 371,657)
10. Waipio, *Hawaii* (23.4%, pop. 11,672)
11. Kaneohe, *Hawaii* (23.6%, pop. 34,970)
12. Milpitas, California (23.8%, pop. 62,698)
13. Maili, *Hawaii *(23.9%, pop. 5,943)
14. Union City, California (24.0%, pop. 66,869)
15. Mililani Town, *Hawaii* (24.9%, pop. 28,608)
16. Hercules, California (25.0%, pop. 19,488)
17. Kapaa, *Hawaii* (26.1%, pop. 9,472)
18. Hilo, *Hawaii* (26.7%, pop. 40,759)
19. Waianae, *Hawaii *(27.3%, pop. 10,506)
20. Lihue, *Hawaii* (28.2%, pop. 5,674)
21. Jersey City, New Jersey (28.3%, pop. 240,055)
22. Walnut, California (28.6%, pop. 30,004)
23. Waimea, *Hawaii *(28.8%, pop. 7,028)
24. Waimalu, *Hawaii* (28.8%, pop. 29,371)
25. Rowland Heights, California (29.0%, pop. 48,553)
26. West Carson, California (29.4%, pop. 21,138)
27. Waihee-Waiehu, *Hawaii* (30.3%, pop. 7,310)
28. Hawaiian Paradise Park, *Hawaii* (30.4%, pop. 7,051)
29. Vallejo, California (30.4%, pop. 116,760)
30. Lahaina, *Hawaii *(30.7%, pop. 9,118)
31. Diamond Bar, California (31.0%, pop. 56,287)
32. Pearl City, *Hawaii* (31.1%, pop. 30,976)
33. East San Gabriel, California (31.1%, pop. 14,512)
34. Daly City, California (31.6%, pop. 103,621)
35. Pukalani, *Hawaii* (31.7%, pop. 7,380)
36. Kahului, *Hawaii* (31.7%, pop. 20,146)
37. Mission Bend, Texas (31.8%, pop. 30,831)
38. Gardena, California (31.8%, pop. 57,746)
39. South San Francisco, California (31.8%, pop. 60,552)
40. Bridgeport, Connecticut (31.9%, pop. 139,529)
41. Bridgeport, Connecticut (31.9%, pop. 139,529)
42. Aiea, Hawaii (31.9%, pop. 9,019)
43. Pittsburg, California (32.2%, pop. 56,769)
44. Ashland, California (32.5%, pop. 20,793)
45. Stockton, California (32.5%, pop. 243,771)
46. Garden Grove, California (32.5%, pop. 165,196)
47. Freeport, New York (33.5%, pop. 43,783)
48. San Gabriel, California (33.6%, pop. 39,804)
49. Parkway-South Sacramento, California (34.0%, pop. 36,468)
50. Hayward, California (34.2%, pop. 140,030)
51. Carson, California (34.9%, pop. 89,730)
52. New York, New York (35.0%, pop. 8,008,278)
53. Florin, California (35.0%, pop. 27,653)
54. Ives Estates, Florida (35.1%, pop. 17,586)
55. Bayview-Montalvin, California (35.2%, pop. 5,004)
56. Alhambra, California (35.5%, pop. 85,804)
57. Dallas, Texas (35.6%, pop. 1,188,580)
58. Stafford, Texas (35.6%, pop. 15,681)
59. Oakland, California (35.7%, pop. 399,484)
60. Long Beach, California (35.8%, pop. 461,522)
61. Signal Hill, California (35.8%, pop. 9,333)
62. Central Islip, New York (35.8%, pop. 31,950)
63. San Jose, California (36.0%, pop. 894,943)
64. Richmond, California (36.1%, pop. 99,216)
65. Westminster, California (36.2%, pop. 88,207)
66. La Palma, California (36.3%, pop. 15,408)
67. Newburgh, New York (36.3%, pop. 28,259)
68. Seaside, California (36.4%, pop. 31,696)
69. Kailua, *Hawaii* (36.4%, pop. 9,870)
70. North Lauderdale, Florida (36.7%, pop. 32,264)
71. Navasota, Texas (36.8%, pop. 6,789)
72. Village Park, *Hawaii* (36.8%, pop. 9,625)
73. Chicago, Illinois (36.8%, pop. 2,896,016)
74. White Oak, Maryland (37.1%, pop. 20,973)
75. Bailey's Crossroads, Virginia (37.1%, pop. 23,166)
76. New Haven, Connecticut (37.4%, pop. 123,626)
77. New Haven, Connecticut (37.4%, pop. 123,626)
78. Forest Park, Georgia (37.4%, pop. 21,447)
79. La Presa, California (37.4%, pop. 32,721)
80. Houston, Texas (37.4%, pop. 1,953,631)
81. Fair Oaks, Georgia (37.5%, pop. 8,443)
82. North Las Vegas, Nevada (37.6%, pop. 115,488)
83. Temple City, California (37.7%, pop. 33,377)
84. Marina, California (37.8%, pop. 25,101)
85. Chicago Heights, Illinois (37.9%, pop. 32,776)
86. Blue Island, Illinois (37.9%, pop. 23,463)
87. Makawao, *Hawaii* (38.0%, pop. 6,327)
88. Diboll, Texas (38.0%, pop. 5,470)
89. East Pasadena, California (38.1%, pop. 6,045)
90. Buena Park, California (38.2%, pop. 78,282)
91. Broadview-Pompano Park, Florida (38.2%, pop. 5,314)
92. Hacienda Heights, California (38.3%, pop. 53,122)
93. Artesia, California (38.3%, pop. 16,380)
94. Lincolnia, Virginia (38.4%, pop. 15,788)
95. Moreno Valley, California (38.4%, pop. 142,381)
96. Riverdale Park, Maryland (38.5%, pop. 6,690)
97. Lathrop, California (38.6%, pop. 10,445)
98. Suisun City, California (38.6%, pop. 26,118)
99. Bay Point, California (38.6%, pop. 21,534)
100. Missouri City, Texas (38.6%, pop. 52,913)


In Hawaii, Asians are the majority (Filipino, Korean, Indonesian, Japanese, Vietnamese, 20+ other Asian race etc..) whites account for less than 20%, blacks about 1.9% and there's also a huge group of pacific islanders (Samoans, Tongans, Tahitian, Hawaiians etc..). The schools that I went to, there were only 4-12 white students, 1 or sometime none black students.

Yet again, Hawaii dominate...


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

minato ku said:


> I wouldn't say that for Tokyo.
> Tokyo isn't multicultural but it is very diverse city.


When I look at it, Tokyo is more homogenous though the city has a significant Korean and Chinese population. Culture wise yeah I really like the city's character especially those within Harajuku


----------



## Yörch1 (Oct 31, 2006)

Mexico City has an extense mixture of cultures. Maybe there are not thousands and thousands of immigrants, but a few of lot of differents ethnics.

You can find people from Korea, Japan, China, USA, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Finland, every Latin American country, Russia, Canada, Philippines, Armenia, Poland, India and lots more. 

The biggest foreigner communities are Americans (USA), Koreans, Japanese, Spanish, Argentinians, Cubans, Colombians and Polish. 

And what I like the most is that they are not separated in ghettos. There are no ghettos in the city... Well, maybe the only one is Polanco, the jewish district.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

KGB--

I was thinking about your point of americans imposing assimilation.. 
Today I think that assimilation is often self-imposed. For example, there are many areas of LA that are ethnic suburbs but that look and feel like any other suburb in the US. For example, there are cities in the San Gabriel valley that have E. asian pluralities. Does this mean that they look like China or Taiwan or wherever? No. These areas look like any other suburban american city, and the people dress and shop and act like Americans anywhere else.. but you'd be hard-pressed to find a newspaper or even see a sign in English.

I think that sometimes, especially in America, especially in California, and especially in Los Angeles, a certain historic local culture is so appealing that immigrant groups enjoy creating their own "versions" of the culture even when there is no outside pressure to do so. There is a suburb of Beijing called "Orange County" after all...


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

TenRot said:


> The thing about the "diversity" of the two Connecticut cities (New Haven, Bridgeport) on that list of most diverse cities is only because the three major groups (Black, White, and Hispanic) nearly equal each other in numbers, not because they are beacons of diversity...
> 
> They are segregated as hell, like most US Northeast cities. hno:


agreed. I just thought it was an interesting list to post.


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> The thing about the "diversity" of the two Connecticut cities (New Haven, Bridgeport) on that list of most diverse cities is only because the three major groups (Black, White, and Hispanic) nearly equal each other in numbers, not because they are beacons of diversity...



he he...yea...when there's only 3 of something, I hardly call that a recipe for diversity. The earth is such a diverse planet...it consists of two things...humans and non-humans.






> What is the most diverse residential neighborhood of Toronto?


I'm not aware of "one" that stands out as a clear winner....the city is a mish-mash of various kinds of neighbourhoods....some consisting of a noticeable dominant ethnicities (little India, greektown, Chinatown, etc, etc), others where there are a lot of different ethnicities/cultures, with no dominant ones. 

I could give you the numbers for my neighbourhood, which is South Parkdale?







> I checked on wikipedia (maybe not the best source, I admit) and the urban area of LA is 2.5 times as large as Toronto's, yet it has more than 3 times as many people... So they actually are quite comparable. You could cut a section out of LA that was the size of Toronto's UA, and they'd be statistically quite similar, population-wise.



Well, that's not going to tell you much, cause it leaves out the most important factor...land use. Half the GTA is farmland. Most of the GTA's population consists of a very small contigeous area of less than 700 square miles.

To give you another idea, all 2.5 million people who live in the City of Toronto, live on only 85 square miles of land....the rest of the city land is not used for residential purposes. A large amount of the population lives in very high densities. 

There's a lot bigger difference between Toronto and LA than may appear in raw data that may "seem" to be similar, but when you get down to details, is a much different story.





KGB


----------



## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

minato ku said:


> I wouldn't say that for Tokyo.
> Tokyo isn't multicultural but it is very diverse city.


Compared to what Rekjavik? Tokyo is overwhelmingly ethnically Japanese. How is that diverse? It is possibly the least diverse major city on earth.

As far as people talking about land area, that has zero to do with this discussion. What does diversity level have to do with how much land they are occupying? ZERO!

hno:


----------



## monkeyronin (May 18, 2006)

isaidso said:


> Compared to what Rekjavik? Tokyo is overwhelmingly ethnically Japanese. How is that diverse? It is possibly the least diverse major city on earth.


As with most major cities, there are a diverse range of different people with different personalities from all sorts of different walks of life, with different beliefs, fashions, ideas, etc. Ethnic Diversity is not the only type of diversity, as even if we look at a singe ethnicity in our own city...we can see a diverse range of people within that ethnicity.


----------



## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

Of course there are myriad types of belief systems, personalities, behaviours, etc., that is universal from the smallest village to the largest metropolis. It is absolutely useless to compare that kind of diversity. Every human on the planet is different. Diversity is as great as the number of brain stems that exist.

This thread is a completely moronic useless pointless exercise if we are talking about that kind of diversity. Surely, people aren't having a discussion on something so basic, obvious, or stupid.


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> As far as people talking about land area, that has zero to do with this discussion. What does diversity level have to do with how much land they are occupying? ZERO!



If you had actually been paying attention to some of the discussion, you would find it has plenty to do with it. It was mentioned for two reasons...one to show the relative geographic areas in question, which someone thought was similar to LA....and two, that interactivity has a lot to do with how diversity works, depending on how close they have to live together.

If this train of thought is still of no interest to you, feel free to go on thinking it has "ZERO" to do with anything, but please let the rest of us enjoy something resembling free thought. Or is "diverse" thinking just a little too foreign for you?




KGB


----------



## monkeyronin (May 18, 2006)

isaidso said:


> Of course there are myriad types of belief systems, personalities, behaviours, etc., that is universal from the smallest village to the largest metropolis. It is absolutely useless to compare that kind of diversity. Every human on the planet is different. Diversity is as great as the number of brain stems that exist.
> 
> This thread is a completely moronic useless pointless exercise if we are talking about that kind of diversity. Surely, people aren't having a discussion on something so basic, obvious, or stupid.


Sure, but I think Tokyo's diversity (among people of the same ethnicity) especially stands out. Different groups hav ekind of carved out theri own little niches in ther city. as I said not based on the ethnicityy but on something else like...clothes.


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> I was thinking about your point of americans imposing assimilation..
> Today I think that assimilation is often self-imposed.



Oh, I didn't mean to say it was necessarilly done at gunpoint or anything. Yes, I think a lot of it is quite subconscious, and I think it differs from region to region in the USA. Sometimes it is imposed, and other times it is just expected, but the prevailing definition of "America" is one of assimilation, or melting pot, as opposed to the "mosaic", or official multicultural nature of Canada.





> I think that sometimes, especially in America, especially in California, and especially in Los Angeles, a certain historic local culture is so appealing that immigrant groups enjoy creating their own "versions" of the culture even when there is no outside pressure to do so.



Oh, I agree...California has had for some time, a kind of "promised land" appeal to many who seek it out. But like the USA in general, that "American Dream" is a bit allusive, and things rarely is the way immigrants had "immagined" things to be....the USA is a very beguiling place.


Hey dweebo, I know you like stats, so rather than blasting you with long lists of them (although i promise I will later), here's a very simple one that may actually say a lot. 

26% of the Toronto population (aged 15 or older) is comprised of individuals who were born in Canada to two Canadian-born parents. The rest are immigrants ( 52% ) or born to immigrants ( 22% ).

This is of course from the 2001 census, so the numbers will have changed by now.





KGB


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

I don't understand the whole point about "my city has people from every single countries in the world" or things similar. I mean come on, in cities such as New York City, Paris or London, the diplomatic network in itself leads people from every single countries in the world to be there. Even the simple fact there's the UN in NYC, or the UNESCO in Paris, is enough to guarantee that.

Same goes about the "my city has people speaking 340 languages"... great that shows your city is well segregated with few interactions between its citizens. Of course that's a provocative statement, but I mean that what's interesting in cultural diversity is the interactions, what it brings to one another. And for this you have to communicate. I mean there are tons of people in the 13th arrondissement of Paris who talk nothing else than Cantonese, Lao, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Thai, tons of Chinese minority languages... Why should I be proud about this ? It would be better if they would speak French, though their kids do, many old migrants don't.

Anyway, it's true that it's rather enjoyable to live in a city where most of your friends have cultural roots abroad. It makes feel we live in an important place, and it might make people more open-minded (so this isn't necessarily granted). However, it's true this could be irritating when it becomes an obsession. The most important to judge someone is his personality, not his colour of skin or the exotic story of his family. That's obvious about negative prejudices, but it should also be true about positive prejudices.


----------



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

KGB said:


> he he...yea...when there's only 3 of something, I hardly call that a recipe for diversity. The earth is such a diverse planet...it consists of two things...humans and non-humans.


LOL.

To be fair, the groups in these cities themselves are pretty diverse relatively speaking for the region (Italians and Irish, African Americans, Jamaicans, Puerto Ricans among others), but I actually was referring to the extreme segregation of these cities. Not too unusual around here, sadly.

There are literally census tracts that go from 70% Black to 80% White. That's not diverse by any definition. Diversity should be more about the interactions of different cultures to each other, not by numbers.


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> I mean honnestly, what's interesting in cultural diversity is the interactions, what it brings to one another. And for this you have to communicate. I mean there are tons of people in the 13th arrondissement of Paris who talk nothing else than Cantonese, Lao, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Thai, tons of Chinese minority languages... Why should I be proud about this ? It would be better if they would speak French, though their kids do, many old migrants don't.



Ah, but here's where things get sticky. Yes, you have a point about communication being better if everyone speaks the same language, and for the most part, people realize this and do their best to speak the main language of their new home if it happens to not be their mother tongue.

But the problem lies in this idea of assimilation...especially in the "old country", where the idea of some people being a "foreigner" while others being "natives". People should be free to do whatever THEY want, and if that means settling in an enclave of similar people and carrying on as if they were in their native country, then that is just fine too. There's nothing wrong with a city even changing its native language, if enough "new" people move there to make it happen. 

The fact is, that native born citizens generally feel they are "more" of their nationality than the immigrants. Getting rid of this sentiment is a very difficult thing, and I can honestly say this is not a very common sentiment in Toronto, where the English/Scotish stock left of "Old Orange" Toronto is just too small to make much of a stink, even if they wanted to (which they generally don't).




KGB


----------



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

WANCH said:


> When I look at it, Tokyo is more homogenous though the city has a significant Korean and Chinese population. Culture wise yeah I really like the city's character especially those within Harajuku


Again, having other ethnic groups in the city doesn't mean much from a diversity point of view other than this group of people speak language A and this other group of people speak language B. Interaction and integration are far more important. The non-Japanese communities in Japan are marginalized to their own ethnic circles. Once again, they will need to integrate into the mainstream Japanese society in order to be accepted. That's not exactly a diverse society, and as you have alluded, homogeneous. In Japan's case, I don't think the existence of non-Japanese groups contributes to diversity.


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

KGB said:


> People should be free to do whatever THEY want, and if that means settling in an enclave of similar people and carrying on as if they were in their native country, then that is just fine too.


Of course it's fine, and I would even add it's easily understandable, I've just said it's not necessarily what's the most interesting. People mixing up is just more enjoyable _to me_ than people segregating between each others, and this even if such a segregation is wanted by the people themselves. I just tell so from experience.

For someone claiming the fascinating open-mindness of his place, you have rather strong clichés about "old countries". I mean, France is a diverse country knowing international waves of immigration since the early 19th century. Léon Blum, who was actually Jewish, has been elected as leader of France at the time when Germany was ruled by Hitler. There are black deputies in the French National assembly since 1914, and black ministers in the French government since 1917. There was even a black player in the French national football team as early as in 1931, at a time when Brazil was still forbidding black players to join its national team. The Great Mosquee of Paris has been inaugurated in 1926, about 52 years earlier than the Central Mosquee of London.

France hosts the largest Jewish population worlwide after the US and Israel, France hosts the second largest muslim community in Europe after Russia, France also hosts the largest Buddhist community in Europe, as well as it hosts a strong protestant community. All this to say that France, and that's by the way also true for other "old countries in Europe" isn't the homogenous intolerant crap you imply it is.




> The fact is, that native born citizens generally feel they are "more" of their nationality than the immigrants. Getting rid of this sentiment is a very difficult thing, and I can honestly say this is not a very common sentiment in Toronto, where the English/Scotish stock left of "Old Orange" Toronto is just too small to make much of a stink, even if they wanted to (which they generally don't).


Yeah right... And that's why the current _elected_ president of France has Hungarian and Greek parents. Something that has actually made the headlines _only abroad_ and not in France where people couldn't care less about irrelevant stuff like that. Could you remind me when something similar happened in the oh so far more open-minded Canada ?


----------



## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

Metropolitan, Leon Blum was jewish but not of foreign or immigrant background. I think his family had their roots in eastern France (like me)


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

eklips said:


> Metropolitan, Leon Blum was jewish but not of foreign or immigrant background. I think his family had their roots in eastern France (like me)


Yes you're right. Actually I never meant he was necessarily of immigrant background, indeed, diversity is not only a matter of immigration, religion is another kind of diversity. As a matter of fact, the various cultural regional backgrounds inside France properly is also a kind of diversity.


----------



## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

> There are black deputies in the French National assembly since 1914, and black ministers in the French government since 1917.


Uhm... how many of those deputies come from mainland France, and how many come from external departments like Guadeloupe, Mayotte, Reuinion, etc.?


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

hkskyline said:


> Again, having other ethnic groups in the city doesn't mean much from a diversity point of view other than this group of people speak language A and this other group of people speak language B. Interaction and integration are far more important. The non-Japanese communities in Japan are marginalized to their own ethnic circles. Once again, they will need to integrate into the mainstream Japanese society in order to be accepted. That's not exactly a diverse society, and as you have alluded, homogeneous. In Japan's case, I don't think the existence of non-Japanese groups contributes to diversity.


To some extent, that happens in the United States even in ethnically diversed cities like New York or Los Angeles. Like the whites have their own cliques and so are African Americans, Hispanics or Asians. But there are also interaction between these groups. 

Some of the cities where you have multiculturalism are actually in South East Asia such as Malaysian cities and Singapore.


----------



## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

isaidso said:


> Compared to what Rekjavik? Tokyo is overwhelmingly ethnically Japanese. How is that diverse? It is possibly the least diverse major city on earth.
> 
> As far as people talking about land area, that has zero to do with this discussion. What does diversity level have to do with how much land they are occupying? ZERO!
> 
> hno:


There's Seoul


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

_EDIT: Sorry double posting, see, answer below._


----------



## Metropolitan (Sep 21, 2004)

tablemtn said:


> Uhm... how many of those deputies come from mainland France, and how many come from external departments like Guadeloupe, Mayotte, Reuinion, etc.?


Gaston Monnerville, who was Black, has been senator of the department of the Lot from 1948 to 1974. Even better than that, he was actually also the President of the Senate from 1959 to 1968.

According to the French institutions, the President of the Senate is actually the one who becomes President of the Republic in case of accidental death or resign of the current President. So actually, if he had been President of the Senate one year more, he would have been the first black French President of the Republic considering Charles de Gaulle resigned in 1969 ! 

Anyway, my point isn't that France is a champion of multi-culturalism or anything childish this way. That would be stupid, especially considering the riots France has known two years ago which have proven that everything is far to be all pink in this country. Moreover, in the current globalized world, about every places are getting cosmopolitan. For instance, there are growing Chinese communities now in African countries, and there are also white minorities in most African countries (There are indeed a significant number of White Senegalese people for instance).

My point was simply to try making a picture a bit broader and to show the truth is a lot more complex than it could be imagined sometimes.


----------



## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

Paris is more diverse than people usually think. It's probably because the diversity is most visible away from the biggest tourist areas. Paris gets an incredible number of tourists, but large parts of the city seem very under-touristed, for some reason. The last time I visited, I had lunch at a cafe in Clichy-sous-Bois, of all places, and met a guy from Burkina Faso. I have been to BF, so we had a nice conversation about his home country. Then we went to a different place that served Brakina beer (from Burkina Faso). It was not a typical tourist experience, but it was a French experience. That's probably what tourists don't understand. That Paris is more than the tourist trails.


----------



## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

I agree, tourist only see a small part of Paris, a tourism is a small part of Paris GDP. Clichy sous Bois is pretty extrem for exemple but it is good. You can find unknow and diverse place closer than the center, even in the center.

For an unisual tour of Paris, diverse, old, modern, multicultural, tourist, non-tourist
See my photo threads
Southern inner suburbs of Paris : part 1 2
Southwestern inner suburbs of Paris, part 1 2 3 4
Central Paris : around Avenue de l'Opera
Central Paris : Montparnasse, part 1 2 3
Central Paris : Around avenue d'Italie, part 1 2 3
Western suburbs of Paris, Versailles
Western inner suburbs of Paris : La Defense, part 1 2
Central Paris : Champs Elysee
Central Paris : The herat of Paris, part 1


----------



## globill (Dec 4, 2005)

WANCH said:


> There's Seoul


Seoul is getting more and more diverse. Last statistic I heard was almost one million non-Koreans in the metro area (of 24 million).

There are American, Japanese, African, Filipino, Chinese and French areas.

Seoul is more diverse than any city in China (Hong Kong excluded).

The whole world is getting diverse. Seoul is no exception.


----------



## dweebo2220 (Jan 13, 2006)

KGB said:


> Well, that's not going to tell you much, cause it leaves out the most important factor...land use. Half the GTA is farmland. Most of the GTA's population consists of a very small contigeous area of less than 700 square miles.
> 
> To give you another idea, all 2.5 million people who live in the City of Toronto, live on only 85 square miles of land....the rest of the city land is not used for residential purposes. A large amount of the population lives in very high densities.
> 
> ...


There obviously _is_ a difference between Toronto and LA's land use.. there's differences in every city. But I think you're falling for the stereotypes here. You already called the LA Metro Area "the size of Belgium or something." 

The figure I'm going for for LA's UA is about 1700 sq. miles, and for Toronto it's 700. That's in keeping with your numbers.

Also, LA's densest 100 sq. miles have 2.5 million people.. which you're right, is a little less dense than Toronto. But really not that much. We're talking 29,000 people/sq. mile vs. 25,000.

If we were talking NYC or Hong Kong-style density vs. LA or Toronto, i'd accept your point. But I feel I have to point out that LA and Toronto really are quite similar in their population density stats.


----------



## Xusein (Sep 27, 2005)

LA is quite dense itself.


----------



## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> All this to say that France, and that's by the way also true for other "old countries in Europe" isn't the homogenous intolerant crap you imply it is.



Of course.. I never implied Paris or europe was "homogenous, intolerant crap". How you gleen that from anything I said is a mystery to me. But to think there would be no blowback if the native french, german, or whatever people of their countries wouldn't blink an eye if they suddenly were faced with representing less than half the population, I think you are the one being naive. We can see evidence of that in several european cities (including generally easy going Scandanavian countries), where periods of large immigration causes "issues".

And your anictdotle evidence is nice, but I doubt can define things...I mean com'on...you think we can sum up Nazi Germany as tolerant of blacks and jews because of what you have presented...I mean really, you have seem to have lost some perspective here.




> But I think you're falling for the stereotypes here. You already called the LA Metro Area "the size of Belgium or something."



Uh...I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can tell the difference when I'm joking, and giving serious, accurate stats. Was I wrong? LOL





> Also, LA's densest 100 sq. miles have 2.5 million people.. which you're right, is a little less dense than Toronto. But really not that much. We're talking 29,000 people/sq. mile vs. 25,000.



But I wasn't giving you Toronto's densest part of the city, I was just giving you all of them. Toronto has census tracts as dense as 180,000 people per square mile.

But I don't want to harp on that, because the densities were people live and interact is only one of numerous factors that affect how diverse people live together.





KGB


----------



## InTheBeach (Apr 20, 2006)

TenRot said:


> She is a Canadian of Caribbean descent, not African American (not even American).


This always irks me. I guess you are welcome to use your own definition filter.

We can all have our own meanings for things, but the United States of America is not the only America. There is North America, South America, Central America, Latin America...

...America is anything West of the Atlantic Ocean and East of the Pacific Ocean.

To me, African American refers to someone with African heritage that is living in North or South America.

For me, it is not an "American" that is "black". But that's just me.

What is a "Canadian of Caribbean descent"? This is interesting. A picture of an Indian, Hispanic, or Chinese person could also be a "Canadian of Caribbean descent" I guess. But looking at her, she is clearly a "Canadian of Caribbean descent". Right?

Maybe she is Oriental Africana instead. Who knows? I don't, and you don't either. And that is my point.


----------



## InTheBeach (Apr 20, 2006)

You can never answer the question "Which is more diverse". It is way too subjective.

I have my own litmus test to determine if the city that I am in serves my brand of diversity.

Pay attention to who is serving your coffee, cleaning the office buildings, driving the cab, etc. Let's call these people Exhibit A.

Now pay attention to who is drinking the coffee, working in the office building, riding in the cab, etc. Let's call these people Exhibit B.

Is there a difference in the diversity of Exhibit A and Exhibit B?

The should be very similar. If they are not, then the city is diverse in numbers only IMO.

I've been to many of the cities discussed here, and have seen some significant differences in terms of their diversity.


----------



## InTheBeach (Apr 20, 2006)

TenRot said:


> LA is quite dense itself.


Yes, more than most people can imagine.

I think KGB's point is that density is not something that happens in a text book, or on a web page. It happens at street level, and varies from street to street in a drastic way.


----------



## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

Metropolitan said:


> Same goes about the "my city has people speaking 340 languages"... great that shows your city is well segregated with few interactions between its citizens. Of course that's a provocative statement, but I mean that what's interesting in cultural diversity is the interactions, what it brings to one another. And for this you have to communicate.


Absolute bollocks. Just because people speak a multitude of languages shouldnt infer they assimilate into segregated communities.
London is the city inferred with 340 languages (though the post goes on to point out Paris I know), but Id like to outline London is practically the most mixed city in the West, especially if you take into account most Blacks, E Asians and S Asians earn more than whites, that there isnt a *single* racial or economic 'ghetto' despite 80 ethnic groups taking up at least 60 percent descent of the population, 40 percent are foreign born and the current generation speaks over 55-60 percent a foreign mother tongue. Intermarriage outperforms inmarriage among Blacks, E & SE Asians and the continental Europeans, whilst 1/3 of S Asians intermarry. 

The fastest growing racial 'minority' is 'mixed race' and the highest majority-minority area is 70 percent in Chalvey area of Slough in the metro area, and even then that S Asian community is made up of disparate Indian and Pakistani Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities. Compare that with US where acc. to the last census the self imposed segregation is phenomenal- in NYC as bad as the 1960s and getting worse - where the majority of the city is 'zoned' between 80-98 percent neighbourhoods of one race divided by boundary streets, where you can cross from one 90 percent Hispanic area into a 93 percent white area. This doesnt mean NYC is racist - its anything but - it's just the understandable ease with which communities and draw together there is much more available as a housing option (and Im sure would replicate itself in London if given half a chance), and that economic classes group together just like any other city in the world .

*Neither is this to say London is some kind of multicultural nirvana or without its racial tensions*, (and the US treats its newcomers a damn sight better than the current British govt), but theres alot less tension than the norm elsewhere and a huge amount of mixing, in part imposed by old racist, multiculturalist (eg segregational) policies of the govt in the 1950s that bred freedom of movement, religion, education and language in a hope these communities would develop seperately (which, to the acclaim of both native and foreign communities, they didnt). The meteoric rise of house prices has seen a huge buy n sell culture that exacerbates a pretty transient population and a centuries old tradition of mixing developments and classes side by side.

What I have to say the problem with racial tensions in UK as a whole is the right wing press, notably the majority of the sensationalist tabloids screaming about terrorism and floods of East Europeans from EU expansions (despite these 'floods' propping up the economy). Already cities up north, where community segregation is much more evident, have seen race riots but thankfully the rot hasnt set in London (despite it too having race riots in its history). This is something that contrasts from the US, you dont see its headlines day after day screaming about immigrant crimes.

Ive tried to be honest about London, despite problems and against intention, it is very mixed.


----------



## addisonwesley (Jun 19, 2005)

Metropolitan said:


> that's why the current _elected_ president of France has Hungarian and Greek parents. Something that has actually made the headlines _only abroad_ and not in France where people couldn't care less about irrelevant stuff like that. Could you remind me when something similar happened in the oh so far more open-minded Canada ?


I don't recall your president's Greco-Hungarian heritage being noted in any Toronto newspaper, but I'll tell what I do remember- the Paris riots in 2005. I'm not too certain, perhaps you could refresh my memory, but I believe it involved _a few _people who didn't seem to be appreciative of France's oh so open-minded attitude towards minorities.


----------



## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Yes SOCIAL tension in France. in Seine Saint Denis with bad reputation a high povety rate (For France) young of this departement have so problem for find jobs but it is not not only the non white, some problem with the Police due at their bad reputation. It is why this departement has a high unemployment rate.
Of course like alny coutries France have problem of racial discrimination. 

Actually I m non white and I live in a wealthy district, so I have more change to find a jobs than most french. 

The suburbs is actually 80% of Paris population, so only a small part of suburbs are poor.

Inner Paris has the second highest povety rate in Paris rmetro (Out 8) Only the Seine Saint Denis (Western inner suburbs) has a little higher poverty rate.
Inner Paris has the second highest unemployment rate (Out 8)

When you go in many districts of inner Paris, you see that inner Paris = rich and white city is crap, it is nothing more than a media manipulation.
Actually all the pictures posted by metropolitan and me are in inner Paris.


----------



## Tubeman (Sep 12, 2002)

Seen it all before, several times over :sleepy:


----------

