# BRAZIL | High Speed Rail



## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

Joop20 said:


> ...... high speed busses that leave every minute and have a capacity of 40 people that have to travel 400 km??? I think there's a reason why there are no such buslines in the world lol.


Almost!!!!!!! :bash:

Ten years ago I traveled from Mexico City to Guadalajara on a high speed (relatively) bus with had less than 30 seats. At the Mexico City bus station there were 18 buses (at various prices) scheduled to leave for Guadalajara during that hour. During the ride, our driver was racing other buses to Guadalajara. hno::banana:hno::banana:hno::banana:


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

Trainman Dave said:


> Almost!!!!!!! :bash:
> 
> Ten years ago I traveled from Mexico City to Guadalajara on a high speed (relatively) bus with had less than 30 seats. At the Mexico City bus station there were 18 buses (at various prices) scheduled to leave for Guadalajara during that hour. During the ride, our driver was racing other buses to Guadalajara. hno::banana:hno::banana:hno::banana:


lol trainman dave, another example why high speed rail is a better solution in densely populated corridors :cheers:


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

Joop20 said:


> lol trainman dave, another example why high speed rail is a better solution in densely populated corridors :cheers:


I agree with you but there is a reason for the bus networks to be found all over the world.

The cost of initial investment in a new bus line is very low so many small businesses can be started with out any national capital need. When I was in the main Bus Terminal in Mexico City there must have almost 50 different companies offering long distance services all over Mexico and into Texas.

The problem with building new railroads of any speed is the requirement for very expensive capital!


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## Joop20 (Jun 29, 2004)

Trainman Dave said:


> I agree with you but there is a reason for the bus networks to be found all over the world.
> 
> The cost of initial investment in a new bus line is very low so many small businesses can be started with out any national capital need. When I was in the main Bus Terminal in Mexico City there must have almost 50 different companies offering long distance services all over Mexico and into Texas.
> 
> The problem with building new railroads of any speed is the requirement for very expensive capital!


Totaly true, but I still think it's great when the Brazilian government is going to invest in a high speed link between Rio and SP, considering the very busy traffic between both cities. And in the long run, it's going to be a better solution than bus lines. It's good to see that 'developing' countries can find the money to invest in high speed rail these days!


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## Trainman Dave (Mar 30, 2007)

The Sao Paulo - Rio corridor may be one of the most fascinating transportation challenges in the world.

Very densely populated!
High mountain ranges with very deep valleys which have steep sides!
A desnse road network which has only a few limited access highways!
Airports which cannot expanded because of water of development!

This may be one of the few corridors where a 400km HSL in tunnels and on viaducts may infact be the most economic transportation solution


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## Macgr (Nov 18, 2007)

city_thing said:


> The train would run mostly underground? Is the area between the two cities dense enough to need that?


It's because of this:










The picture is actually from Paraná, but the area between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro is pretty much like that. And so is the area between either São Paulo or Rio and Belo Horizonte, the planned extension cited in the first article.


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## mqts (Mar 8, 2008)

Is São Paulo state, it's called Sea's moutain range, or _Serra do Mar_ in portuguese. This moutain range is between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro cities.

The HSR São Paulo-Rio de Janeiro will cross a region called Paraíba's valley (_Vale do Paraíba_), just after Sea's mountain range. The name of this valley is due to a river called _Paraíba do Sul_.

It's because it that it will have lots of undergroung sections.
And that region, I think, has more than 30 million inhabitants.
21.6 mi in metropolitan regions of São Paulo Campinas and Santos (SP state)
9.5 mi in metropolitan region of Rio de Janeiro (RJ state)

*Macgr*
nice picture, the area between São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro is like that.


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## Dan (Jun 16, 2007)

With so many people in these areas -- not just in SP and RJ cities but also in other cities like Santos, São José dos Campos, etc., as well as all the countless tourists, businessmen, other people from elsewhere in the country that have to get between SP and RJ -- this really is one of the most obvious HSR lines in the world, I think. I just wish it were to be done before the World Cup...


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## Macgr (Nov 18, 2007)

Dan1113 said:


> I just wish it were to be done before the World Cup...


It will probably be ready by 2250.

Or not.


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## CacoRama (Dec 12, 2006)

Please! I'm sure it will be ready for the world cup.


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## Skywalk (Feb 13, 2007)

Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.


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## UrbanImpact (Jan 10, 2005)

Skywalk said:


> Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.


Thinking like that, you might as well not build anything in any country. This project would create lots of cash to pump back into the economy for distribution for all the social classes it effects.......from the builders to the users.


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## TEBC (Dec 26, 2004)

Skywalk said:


> Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.



just like americans, chinese...


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## sotavento (May 12, 2005)

Let me dismantle this completely lunatic argumentation: :lol:



Skywalk said:


> High speed rail is very expensive to build, especially in mountaineous terrain like between Sao Paulo and Rio. But even worse, it also has very high maintenance costs which cause ticket prices very high. High speed rail travel can easily be more expensive than even air travel.


- The CURRENT highway between São Paulo and Rio is 380km long ... 
- a BUS (usualy limited to 100km/h in Europe) would need 4h to make the trip
- specialy and purposedly built buses (lets say they could make buses that safely travel at 160/200km/h) would be very expensive and the highway would need to be specialy modified for them to run (highways are usualy 120km/h)
- at 120km/h it would take 3h30 BETWEEN local trafic slows them in BOTH ends ...
- you get 10/20km of "urban" highway at both ends of the road 



> I think, it would be much better just to build a road suitable for high speeds, similar to the German Autobahn, and then run high speed buses on it, with speeds of about 200 kph. With such speeds these buses would easily cover the 400 km distance in just a bit more than 2 hours.


Highways in Germany are not PURPOSEDLY built for high speeds ... much less for BUS high speeds ... they just didn't impose a limit in LARGE STRAIGHT sections.



> Unlike railways, buses and roads are cheap, both to build and to maintain. Unlike railway trains, vehicles with rubber tires can climb slopes of 8% or even more without problems. The dedicated high speed road should have concrete surface, like a German Autobahn, but unlike it, it should have superelevation in curves, up to 12%. This would allow curves to be built much sharper, allowing to go around hills instead of going through them with a tunnel. All this would allow the high speed road to be built much, much cheaper in this mountaneous terrain than a railway. As was stated in the original post, a railway would have to go mostly underground in this terrain.


A section of highway cost THE SAME as a section of HSL ... with the HSL actualy being LESS COSTLY due to it having a SMALLER footpath (double track HSL is just 14m wide while a 3+3 jighway would be 30m or even wider (?)) ... and you can DOUBLE every piece of infraestructure cost on a highway when comparing to a HSL .. .just think as a Highway as 2 HSL put side by side but without the rails or overhead wires. :cheers:




> The high speed road should be run on a schedule, like a railway. This would rule out any delays because of congestion. The road and the vehicles running on it should be equipped with a train control system just like those for railways, so that vehicles will always keep safety distance and always maintain the appropriate speed for the section of the road which they are on.
> 
> If buses would run with a headway of 1 minute and each bus would seat 40 passengers, this would allow for plenty capacity, 2400 passengers per hour and direction, as much as three double-set ICE3 trainsets. Maybe it would be possible to run vehicles even closer, with a headway of just 30 seconds, thus further increasing capacity.


- Buses on a 1 minute headway would allow for 2/3h travel time (considering that they would be fast enough
- maiby one could make some inprovements to on-bus catering and deal with cleaning and sanitary facilities ... 
- 3 round trips a day ???
- would need some 6x60=360 are needed buses just to make the BASIC schedule ... so lets get some 400 of them (just for starts)
- each and every one of them would get to the 1.000.000km mark in 416 days (considering that each would need to run SP-Rio-SP 3x a day) 
- tire (50/100k replacements), fuel (rising prices), etc
- consider average maintenance mileage rising prices and other factors
at 1M km each would be turn into a piece of crap (as in not suitable for high speeds anymore) and would probably need replacement (could be relocated to another corridor ?)
- you need 400x4 BUS drivers ... 24/7 cleaning services able to service/clean 120 buses per hour ... after each trip every bus would probably need preventive maintenance chechups ... etc


^^ Do you even begin to see what you ar getting yourself into with this ??? 



> If not all timetable paths are required for buses, then these could be sold to passenger cars, too, provided they are capable of maintaining the required speeds and equipped with the "trainside" part of the train control system. Most probably some wealthy people would want to use this high speed road, too, and pay dearly for it, thus increasing profitability of the road.


^^ Profitability ???? so you mean that they would have to RUN at a marginal cost (380km at 50/60$ or less) and PAY to use the road ??? 



> The high speed buses could run on ordinary roads, too, albeit with normal speed, thus allowing them to reach every location in both cities or in their vicinities. With many stations for departure and arrival, spread all over both cities, much more people would find themselves living close to one of them. The buses would link many station pairs directly, without requiring passengers to change to transit at the start or end their journey, without additional costs for infrastructure.


Isn't that what LOCAL buses do today ???? EVEN AS WE SPEAK ??? :cheers:


On the other hand ... just looking up the São Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Google Earth I can tell you this:

- São Paulo is located on a plateau some 750m above sea level
- the current S.Paulo-Rio runs in a roughly straight line from SãoPaulo up to Volta Redonda
- in the suburbia from SP until São Jose dos Campos (70km out of SP) we get two railways 
- SJCampos-VoltaRedonda are about 180km apart from each other ... all along the way we get cities at 10/15km distances from each other
- from VoltaRedonda to Nova Iguaçu we get 70km of suburbia
- add 10/20km of URBAN rail inside both SP and RdeJ 

So we get 400km of EXISTING railways we can use to upgrade services in a completely developed corridor .. you don't even need to built a PURE HSL ... just 250km/h "mixed" traffic railway would make miracles over there .... :cheers:

On the other hand ... we could get a 100% new railway ... near the coast we get to see a VERY HIGH SPEED train passing by over there in the middle of the hills ... very sparsely populated area in fact. 

I for myself would like to see both railway lines built ... but having to choose I'd get the upgrade package. :cheers:

Les see:

- 5 minute interval (each 15 minutes a direct , a semi-fast and a stoping train?) 
- 400 pass per train (or even 600? or 1200/1500 in doubles/doubledecker?) = 1600-4800 (direct seats SP-Rio) or some 4800-18000 (total passengers) per HOUR 
- oh ... I forgot ... IN EACH DIRECTION. :cheers:
- trains last for 15/30 years

- 100km/h we get 4h travel time = no show
- 160km/h we get 2h30 travel time = usefull but not that great
- 200/220km/h we get 2h travel time = usefull
- 250km/h we get 1h30/h45 travel time = the sweetspot
- 300km/h we get 1h20/1h30 travel time 
- 350km/h we get 1h10/1h20 travel time

I would settle for 300km/h trains running on full speed at dedicated tracks and at 160/200/220/250 km/h where they entered urban areas or used "mixed" traffic corridors (freight would also get some beneficts from the HSL)

As for the route itself I would go (Starting from Rio):

Rio-NovaIguaçu-Japeri-Barra do Perai = a new direct exit to S.Paulo and Belo Horizonte


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## gaucho (Apr 15, 2003)

Skywalk said:


> Millions of Brazilians can't afford proper food, health care and education. To divert government funding into building HSR for wealthy people who could just as well use the plane but would for whatever reason prefer to take the train is nothing short of criminal.



dont talk about things you dont know, SP-Rio air traffic is one of the busiest on planet, same for road traffic...a rail link is essential for this 2 huge cities.

I didnt know all north americans could afford proper health care... lol Can all chinese afford food? What about education...most countries, even developed nations dont have a proper public education system... hno:

Maybe you dont know but Brazil is not a "big jungle", the goverment needs to improve the infraestructure to develope the country.


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## Ian (Nov 26, 2006)

^^ hahaha, get ready beacause if this project continues, you will have to deal with millions of people like that... hno:

GO Brazil!!!!!


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## mqts (Mar 8, 2008)

sotavento said:


> On the other hand ... just looking up the São Paulo-Rio de Janeiro corridor in Google Earth I can tell you this:
> 
> - São Paulo is located on a plateau some 750m above sea level
> - the current S.Paulo-Rio runs in a roughly straight line from SãoPaulo up to Volta Redonda
> ...


These two railways (Today CPTM's lines 11 and 12) has a headway of 6 and 8 minutes in rush hour. And there is a purpose from CPTM (metropolitan train operator) to reduce these headways to 3 and 4 minutes, respectively. Today, freight trains runs just in line 12 in non-rush hours, and sometimes it brings some damages to metropolitan trains. So, this line won't be shared with other services, except line 13 (under project). Line 11, too.

PS: these lines don't reach São José dos Campos.



sotavento said:


> So we get 400km of EXISTING railways we can use to upgrade services in a completely developed corridor .. you don't even need to built a PURE HSL ... just 250km/h "mixed" traffic railway would make miracles over there .... :cheers:
> 
> On the other hand ... we could get a 100% new railway ... near the coast we get to see a VERY HIGH SPEED train passing by over there in the middle of the hills ... very sparsely populated area in fact.
> 
> ...


Good analysis, sotavento kay:


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Brazil eyes 2-phase high speed train tender in Feb *

RIO DE JANEIRO, May 27 (Reuters) - The Brazilian government plans to hold separate tenders next February for foreign and local companies to present offers for a $9 billion high-speed railway project between Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo.

Cabinet Chief Dilma Rousseff said on Tuesday during a presentation on infrastructure that the winners of the separate phases would later be joined into one group that would effectively build the railroad.

"Those who win, be it a Japanese, Korean or French consortium, will qualify on its side, and we'll (Brazilian side) have a consortium formed on our side. The two consortia that win will merge to create a special purpose entity," Rousseff said.

The proposed railway is to link the international airports of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, as well as a cargo airport in the city of Campinas in Sao Paulo state.

Authorities have been trying to reduce traffic at crowded urban airports, especially Sao Paulo's local Congonhas airport, after a TAM airlines Airbus overshot the runway in Congonhas last July, killing a total of 199 people.

Previously, government estimates had put the cost of the project at $11 billion. It was not immediately clear why the expected costs have come down.

Rousseff has recently visited Japan and South Korea to present the project there.

In neighboring Argentina, France's Alstom SA was given a contract to build a $1.5 billion high-speed railway -- the country's first, earlier this year.

Rousseff also said the government was negotiating with the United States a partnership agreement for a railroad project that would link the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. It would link Brazil's Paranagua port with Chile's Mejillones.

The Brazilian portion of the link would be between Paranagua in southern Parana state and Maracaju in Mato Grosso do Sul not far from the border with Paraguay.

Its estimated cost is 800 million reais ($480 million). The railroad would help to transport grains from central-western Brazil, Rousseff said, adding that the U.S. participation was likely to be confined to financing. (Reporting by Rodrigo Gaier, writing by Andrei Khalip; Editing by Braden Reddall)


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## urbanaturalist (Sep 25, 2005)

250 mile high speed underground railroad...which means it can go probably as fast it is technically possible to go. Very sweet. Other regions should wake up to underground rail, especially in large urban corridors. Imagine a maglev train between Boston and Washington DC or between Raleigh to Atlanta that goes underground. It can avoid the eminent domain situations that certainly arise and be able to hit that 400+ mile per hour threshold. Its worth the cost.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

It will only be done where it's necessary - there's no other option in mountainous regions - the Basque Y in Spain is a perfect example.


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## oberoende (Dec 2, 2007)

*Vactrain option*

In my opinion a high speed railway should not be constructed between Sao Paolo and Rio, a vactrain (a maglev tunnel with artificial vacuum) is a better option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

A vactrain is suitable in the Sao Paolo - Rio corridor for the following reasons:
It is not an earthquake zone.
The distance is too great to allow commuting by state of the art HSR but is possible with a Vactrain.
There are no large intermediate cities.
Existing railways are slow.
The populations and economic potentials of the cities are large enough to bear the investment costs.
There is very limited potential to extend HSR to other destinations in existing rail corridors (as France and most other nations except Japan do).
Both cities have extensive public transportation networks with well defined centres.
The geology requires a large amount of tunneling for HSR. The extra cost for a tunnel the whole way is thus not so large.
Brazil does not have a HSR industry. This is an opportunity to develop unique technology that can be exported to other countries in future.


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## Euklidisk (May 14, 2005)

oberoende said:


> In my opinion a high speed railway should not be constructed between Sao Paolo and Rio, a vactrain (a maglev tunnel with artificial vacuum) is a better option.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain
> 
> ...


A huge problem is the time it takes before this technology become stable and afordable. I strongly doubt before year 2050.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

Oberoende - Vactrain doesn't exist so there is no one to build it even if the government wanted to use an expensive and untested technology. Communting is not currently an issue - the cities take so long to get between at the moment that there is not much of a culture of commuting between the two, and besides it will take less than an hour at contemporary HSR speeds - I don't get where your coming from. And I don't understand how you can think a fictional technology is in the least bit relevent to real life. You may as well say there shouldn't be HSR, they should instead invest in a giant teleportation machine or make motorways in the sky for use with hover cars.


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## oberoende (Dec 2, 2007)

elfabyanos said:


> Oberoende - Vactrain doesn't exist so there is no one to build it even if the government wanted to use an expensive and untested technology. Communting is not currently an issue - the cities take so long to get between at the moment that there is not much of a culture of commuting between the two, and besides it will take less than an hour at contemporary HSR speeds - I don't get where your coming from. And I don't understand how you can think a fictional technology is in the least bit relevent to real life. You may as well say there shouldn't be HSR, they should instead invest in a giant teleportation machine or make motorways in the sky for use with hover cars.


To say that the Vactrain technology does not exist is somewhat incorrect. While no one so far has used the technologies together, the individual technologies already exist:
Tunnel-building is a proven technology that HSR also would require.
Maglev technology is in operation in a few places around the world.
The technology to create and sustain a vacuum exists and is not particularly advanced.
Vehicles that operate in a vacuum is also a well-proven technology.

Exactly what technology is fictional?

The straight line distance between Sao Paolo and Rio is 360 km. Given the terrain and coastline, it seems likely that a HSR between the cities would be at least 400 km long. State of the art HSR have an average speed no greater than 265 km/h. Therefore it is unrealistic to expect HSR travel times shorter than 90 minutes. 90 minutes city centre to city centre is certainly an impressive achievement and huge improvement on today, but too long for commuting.

You say that commuting is not an issue as there is no culture of commuting between the two cities today because it takes too long. I find this statement illogical and irrelevant. There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute, regardless of the preexisting "culture".

I would suggest that the government in its tender includes two alternatives, either a typical HSR or a Vactrain. Who knows, some company or consortium might be interested. You never know until you try.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

oberoende said:


> To say that the Vactrain technology does not exist is somewhat incorrect. While no one so far has used the technologies together, the individual technologies already exist:
> Tunnel-building is a proven technology that HSR also would require.
> Maglev technology is in operation in a few places around the world.
> The technology to create and sustain a vacuum exists and is not particularly advanced.
> ...


The vactrain is fictional. We have all the technology we need to build Nuclear Fusion power plants, but they don't exist yet, so they are fictional. We have the technology to build a space statino around Mars, but it doesn't exist so it is fictinoal.




> Therefore it is unrealistic to expect HSR travel times shorter than 90 minutes. 90 minutes city centre to city centre is certainly an impressive achievement and huge improvement on today, but too long for commuting.


I think you're slightly ioverstating the distance and 90 minutes is not too long for a commute - thats about how long it is to commute from my city to London and thousands do it everyday.



> You say that commuting is not an issue as there is no culture of commuting between the two cities today because it takes too long. I find this statement illogical and irrelevant. There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute, regardless of the preexisting "culture".


Using you're own premises - 1) need vactrain as it may allow commuting, 2) we would like to encourage commuting so we need vatrain. This is circular logic and is not a basis for an argument. If a study (that includes cost-to-benfits calculations and capital investment costs, potential passenger movements etc etc) was made of possible commuting trends to back it up then maybe, but until then there is nothing to back up the concept.


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## oberoende (Dec 2, 2007)

elfabyanos said:


> The vactrain is fictional. We have all the technology we need to build Nuclear Fusion power plants, but they don't exist yet, so they are fictional. We have the technology to build a space statino around Mars, but it doesn't exist so it is fictinoal.
> 
> I think you're slightly ioverstating the distance and 90 minutes is not too long for a commute - thats about how long it is to commute from my city to London and thousands do it everyday.
> 
> Using you're [sic] own premises - 1) need vactrain as it may allow commuting, 2) we would like to encourage commuting so we need vatrain. This is circular logic and is not a basis for an argument. If a study (that includes cost-to-benfits calculations and capital investment costs, potential passenger movements etc etc) was made of possible commuting trends to back it up then maybe, but until then there is nothing to back up the concept.


I do not dispute that the vactrain is fictional. You said that the technology is fictional, which I do dispute.

What distance and what travel times do you anticipate for a standard HSR? Brighton to London seems to take 50-70 minutes according to nationalrail.co.uk, are you including trips to and from the stations in your 90 minutes? If so, then you must do the same for Sao Paolo and Rio, which makes door-to-door times greater than 2 hours in that corridor. At 120+ minutes, there would still be the occasional hardy commuter, but not of any economic significance.

I have not argued in favour of commuting, it is merely a source of revenue. There is no circular logic in my argument.

The commuting aspect is but one part of my argument that the vactrain is a better investment in Sao Paolo-Rio and a strong one. I repeat: "There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute." This happens regardless of what I want, it is simply how people function, and it also gives a possibility for an enterprising corporation to make money.


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## elfabyanos (Jun 18, 2006)

oberoende said:


> I do not dispute that the vactrain is fictional. You said that the technology is fictional, which I do dispute.


The technology exists but it is not in Vactrain form - I am not incorrect when I say that such existing technology employed in a vactrain would be unproven. I feel you are being extremely obtuse about this point - it is quite obvious - if I buy a rolls royce jet and an airbus wing and a load of electronics from Siemens and everything else I'll need does not mean I'll have a plane that will be proven in service.



> What distance and what travel times do you anticipate for a standard HSR? Brighton to London seems to take 50-70 minutes according to nationalrail.co.uk, are you including trips to and from the stations in your 90 minutes? If so, then you must do the same for Sao Paolo and Rio, which makes door-to-door times greater than 2 hours in that corridor. At 120+ minutes, there would still be the occasional hardy commuter, but not of any economic significance.


If you check rush hour the journey times are longer, between 70 and 85 minutes, over 90 if you travel to Blackfriars or City Thameslink. Slightly less than I thought but not enough to make a significant impact on my point, considering thousands also commute from my neighbouring towns of Hove, Worthing, Newhaven and Eastbourne.



> I have not argued in favour of commuting, it is merely a source of revenue. There is no circular logic in my argument.


I said it was not currently an issue, which it isn't. You're refutation of that turned circular as you appeared to say that I was wrong in saying that commuting isn't currently an issue because with Vactrain you could have commuting - but you need Vactrain to exist for the commuting to exist to require the Vactrain. You also sidestepped my point that 90 minutes is OK for commuting, I accept it isn't that great - more people commute to London from my home town of Sevenoaks with it's 20,000 people than do from Brighton with it's 250,000 as the journey time is less than half that of here. But it's possible nonetheless.



> The commuting aspect is but one part of my argument that the vactrain is a better investment in Sao Paolo-Rio and a strong one. I repeat: "There is plenty of evidence from around the world that if people are provided opportunities to commute (a travel time shorter than one hour and not prohibitively expensive) then people will start to commute." This happens regardless of what I want, it is simply how people function, and it also gives a possibility for an enterprising corporation to make money.


You would need to convince the financiers that this is worth it - I have pointed out where the flaw is - unproven technology - and you must know how hard it is to convince politicians that a non-existing problem such as a requirement for commuting that doesn't currently exists requires funding, no matter how sensible the concept looks on paper.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Brazil to build high speed train line *
9 September 2008

SAO PAULO, Brazil (AP) - Brazil's Transportation Ministry says it hopes to have a high-speed train operating in time for the 2014 Wold Cup.

Ministry's transportation policy director Marcelo Perrupato says the new train line is expected to cost some US$15 billion and will link the cities of Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Campinas.

Perrupato said on Tuesday that the project will be put out to bid in March and construction should begin by early 2010 or sooner.

He says the technology will most likely be provided by companies from France, Japan, Korea or Germany that will form consortiums with Brazilian engineering firms. The only two companies he mentioned were Frances Alstom SA and Germany's Siemens AG.


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## jamesinclair (Mar 21, 2006)

50 bucks its not done before 2015


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## Papagei (Feb 24, 2009)

Does anybody know something about this new line from Rio to Sao Paulo?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_4_49/ai_n31561059/

Some say that it is gonna be a maglev.


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## Tri-ring (Apr 29, 2007)

I recall seeing a news clip stating that the Brazillian president came to Japan and went to the JR Maglev experiment facility in Yamanashi and went through an inspection tour at various Tokaido shinkansen facilities last year.

A Japanese consortium will most likely post a tender to the project.


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## LFellipe (Aug 10, 2009)

*The bullet train*


One of the main transportation projects for the World Cup 2014 is the building of a bullet train linking São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, the two largest Brazilian cities. In Portuguese, the train is called Trem de Alta Velocidade (High Speed Train), or TAV; visit the official site of the High Speed Train.

The official TAV site still informs (wth endorsement of the Federal Government) that operations should start before 2014; however, there are strong doubts about that. There are several obstacles to the project, including technical, financial, political and environmental.

In 2007, it was estimated that the bidding process would be finished by 2008, and the trains would be running after seven years; today, it is growing stronger the opinion that the train won’t be ready before 2015.

The Government is looking for private partners to build the railway. On December 7th 2009, the federal Government announced the criteria to be used to select the partners; 70% of the scoring of bidders will be related to the necessity of official fundings (the smaller the necessity, the higher the score), and 30% will be related to the price of ticket to be charged from passengers (the cheaper the ticket, the higher the score).

Below, more information about the project









The map above shows the route of the railways (click the map to enlarge). Stations in red are already confirmed in the project, stations in green are still under analysis.

One line would connect Campinas (one the largest cities in the State of São Paulo) and the airport of Viracopos (international airport) to the city of São Paulo. The other line would connect São Paulo to Rio de Janeiro, with intermediary stations in the airport of Guarulhos, São José dos Campos and Volta Redonda.










Trains will be 200 meters long. Estimated maximum speed is 300 km/h. Estimated travel times, leaving from Rio, are: to Volta Redonda, 34min; to São José dos Campos, 1h17min; to São Paulo, 1h33min; to Campinas, 2h08min. Currently, flying from São Paulo Rio takes about 1h50min, and driving takes about 5 hours.

There will be two categories of services: Express (between Campinas, São Paulo and Rio) and Regional (intermediary cities). Express trains would fit 458 people, in two classes; regional trains will fit 600 people, in one class.

Estimated prices for a ticket São Paulo – Rio are: R$ 150, economic class, off peak trips; R$ 200, economic class, peak time trips; R$ 250, executive class, off peak; R$ 325, executive class, peak time. Currently, a flight costs between R$ 180 (off peak) and R$ 400 (peak). Current exchange rate is US$ 1 = R$ 1.70.
*About 61% of railways will run on surface, 21% across bridges and 18% underground.*

Estimated costs total R$ 34.6 billion (about US$ 20 billion). Most of the costs correspond to civil woks; indemnifications will take 11%; systems and equipments will take 10%, and the trains themselves will take 8%.


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## LFellipe (Aug 10, 2009)

* RIO - São Paulo HIGH-SPEED RAIL*


*The Rio-São Paulo High Speed rail (Portuguese: Trem de Alta Velocidade Rio-São Paulo; Abbreviation: TAV RJ-SP) is a high-speed rail project connecting Brazil's two largest metropolises: São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. The high-speed line is expected to be operational by 2014, in time for the 20th FIFA World Cup to be held in Brazil, at a cost of $9 billion*.











*Characteristics*
Length: 518 kilometres (322 mi)
Estimated cost: US$9 billion
Operational line speed: 280 km/h
Designed line speed: 350 km/h
Time between Rio-São Paulo: 80 minutes (express) and 101 minutes (with stops in São José dos Campos, Resende and Galeão)
Time between São Paulo-Campinas: 24 minutes (express) and 28 minutes (with a stop in Viracopos)
Estimated passengers: 33 million/year
Estimated ticket price: US$60

*Project history*
The original project, named Expresso Bandeirantes, was to build a high-speed rail line between São Paulo and Campinas. The project was cancelled in 2007 because the Brazilian government concluded that it was more viable to connect Campinas, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro in a single line with an extension of 518 kilometres (322 mi).



*São Paulo-Campinas Route*

Terminal Multimodal de Campinas, in Campinas.The proposed bullet train project has been presented to the city by Helio de Oliveira Santos (PDT), mayor of Campinas, in Brasília, in full by the Japanese consortium that will build the railway in 5 years (ready for the World Cup in 2014). Campinas is ahead in the construction because it is the first city to pave the way for the train by completing its new Multimodal Passenger Terminal in June 2008. However, the tender procedures would wait until February 2009, where over 28 major world manufacturers participated in a contest for related projects. The Japanese consortium presented its proposal modelling on the Shinkansen, which carried 340 million passengers the previous year on 2100 km of trackage at home. It is composed of the Japanese companies Mitsui, Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and Toshiba. The consortium has already submitted a preliminary proposal in Brasilia and Sao Paulo and Rio for interested entrepreneurs.









Terminal Multimodal de Campinas, in Campinas

The preliminary proposal provides for five different types of transactions in which the trains travel at a speed up to 320 km/h. Three lines expressed and two stops, with three of them come in Campinas, with two stopping in Viracopos. Each of these five operations on every hour, with up to three thousand passengers. However, the competition for the building includes manufacturers from Spain, South Korea, Italy, France, Germany, and the Japanese bid. All these have spoken in public hearing on the Traffic and Transport Committee of the Chamber of Deputies, available to consort and enter the auction scheduled for February, as announcement by the President, Luis Inacio Lula da Silva at the end of April, in Campinas


*Rio-São Paulo Route*

Estação Central do Brasil, in Rio de Janeiro.The first stretch of high-speed train line in Brazil will be between its main cities of Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. A distance of 412 kms between the two city terminals: Campo de Marte in Sao Paulo and Station Central do Brasil in Rio de Janeiro will be covered in one hour and 25 minutes at a maximum speed of 360 km / h.

It is tentatively planned that the trains will have a capacity of 855 passengers at a headway of 15 minutes. The fare will be around R$150 to R$250 per passenger in the off-peak hours. There are several projects presented to the Brazilian government. One is the Italian design company's Italplan Engineering Environment & Transport Srl, which presented that the high-speed train is estimated to start operating in 2015. If this target date is met it will serve as a quick and vital link to Sao Paulo in time for the 2016 Summer Olympics.



*Other connecting lines**
On 13 May 2008, it was reported that a high speed line between the cities of Belo Horizonte and Curitiba would be included in the National Transport Plan.[8] It would link *Belo Horizonte, Divinópolis, Varginha and Pocos de Caldas *(all in the state of Minas Gerais); *Campinas, São Paulo, Sorocaba, Itapetininga and Apiaí *(all in the state of São Paulo); *and Curitiba *(in the state of Paraná). The line would be around 1150 kilometres long, about twice the length of the line between Rio de Janeiro and Campinas. The resultant network, centred on São Paulo, would serve an area containing more than half of Brazil's economic output and population. The line is scheduled to be built after the completion of the line between Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo, and Campinas.


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## foxmulder (Dec 1, 2007)

Yeah.. I have never been in Brasil by connecting two largest cities with high speed rail is great idea. However it is going slow I guess, no winner yet?


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## Suburbanist (Dec 25, 2009)

It's under environmental assessment.


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

Its a good idea...but will it really happen? Not in the next 40 years anyway...


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## keber (Nov 8, 2006)

^^ Why not?


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

Hopefully it will be built.


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## LFellipe (Aug 10, 2009)

poshbakerloo said:


> Its a good idea...but will it really happen? Not in the next 40 years anyway...


its completion is estimated for 2014, but has not yet been formalized out paper, well, is expected to be ready for 2015, when a year later will happen the Olympics Rio2016... but I think Brazil is on a huge stage of development and this high-speed train will be completed fast!

We really did this Bullet Train, São Paulo has more than 20,000,000 people in all metro area, and Rio has about 12,000,000

Hope in future (not so far) it links Belo Horizonte (5,500,000) and Curitiba (3,200,000 ppl) Other very large capitals.

Cities that will be linked by High-Speed Rail

São Paulo:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=642866

Rio de Janeiro
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=899030

Curitiba:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=867016

Belo Horizonte:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=434788


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

LFellipe said:


> its completion is estimated for 2014, but has not yet been formalized out paper, well, is expected to be ready for 2015, when a year later will happen the Olympics Rio2016... but I think Brazil is on a huge stage of development and this high-speed train will be completed fast!


But currently its just an idea...it will take like 2years to formally make a plan and get things organised, then 10 years to build etc But before all that money and lots of it is needed...


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