# Is Vancouver's downtown really "sustainable"?



## VanSeaPor (Mar 12, 2005)

I apologise if this thread is in the wrong place, however Vancouver's downtown is being used as a model everywhere, so we have to first address the question: *in the long term, is a downtown like Vancouver's really "sustainable"?*

I say no. The reason being is that Vancouver has a relatively small commercial district, surrounded by highrises. The high rises-and high demand-have cornered this district, which needs to keep pace if Vancouver is to develop well. 

Other problems include height restrictions and strict building regulations (which reduces supply as cities expand, and as thus rises prices). Businesses are starting to move out into the suburbs, which means people in the downtown have to commute to the suburbs, and makes the area car-dependent.

I suggest a solution for Vancouver: deregulate the housing market to lower prices, and concentrate on building medium-density structures. As owning an apartment in downtown wouldn't be as profitable as it once was, people would start moving to other areas to develop, and commerce could expand in tune with the city.


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

I think we might see Vancouver start to price lower-income earners out, which is a bad thing. Deregulation of the housing industry could alleviate that.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Are there enough jobs to sustain those expensive condominiums? Or are investors renting them out and having the tenants support the mortgage?


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

A lot of people suggest that it would automatically be a bad thing if there were too many poeple living downtown to all be employed there, but that isn't necessarily the case. First of all, not all the downtown residents will ever be employed downtown anyway, since there r numerous couples, and they can often only be close to the workplace of one or the other. Second, having non-downtown and suburban employment can be good, if located in the right places, because there r already a lot of people commuting from outer areas to downtown, and having people going both ways makes transit more efficient.
For example, if the employment was only located downtown, buses and RT vehicles would be fully loaded on their trips into town, but nearly empty going back out again. But if there are jobs located along transit routes in outer areas, the transit can be utilized fully on both trips. Not to mention that it can offer suburbanites more options for working closer to their homes, thus avoiding long and costly commutes.

But all that's contingent on employment patterns being smart and located along transit routes such as Skytrain.


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## LordMandeep (Apr 10, 2006)

Vancouver is a beautiful place to live, but it isn't economically strong at all compared to Toronto, Calgary and Montreal.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

^ Ah, I can see TO and Calgary, but Montreal? I mean, it has an unemployment rate of over 8%! Since when is its economy so strong?


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

That's not the only measure. The output of Greater Montreal is still greater than Calgary or Vancouver.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

Per capita? Obviously it's a much larger metro, so I'd expect the total GDP to be larger.


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## Accura4Matalan (Jan 7, 2004)

I believe that the tourism alone could sustain it. However, it would be a great shame to see a city like Vancouver become a seasonal one.


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## VanSeaPor (Mar 12, 2005)

samsonyuen said:


> I think we might see Vancouver start to price lower-income earners out, which is a bad thing. Deregulation of the housing industry could alleviate that.


Indeed. We do need our share of lower-income workers to maintain our economy. Another thing we should do is have higher height limits in the commercial area. I wouldn't mind a few towers here and there to be taller than the mountains when seen from a few kilometres/miles away.


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## LordMandeep (Apr 10, 2006)

Its hell a lot more sustainable then Calgary.


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

Very intriguing question. 

Vancouver is one of the most beautiful cities anywhere in the world & always a wonderful place to visit. I admire what Vancouver has done in terms of building up its downtown with high-rise condos & expanding its excellent public transportation system. The upcoming Olympics should give a big boost to all of lower BC. 

But on a broader level than simply the sustainability of downtown, I really wonder about the fundamentals of Vancouver’s metropolitan economy. It’s so much easier to see what drives SF Bay Area & Seattle economies than Vancouver. What besides global immigration & investment, real estate, tourism, special events & other cyclical activities subject to frequent boom & bust cycles?


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## oz.fil (Jun 2, 2006)

isnt vancouver currently the worlds most livable city?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

oz.fil said:


> isnt vancouver currently the worlds most livable city?


*Zurich* ranks as the world’s top city for quality of living, according to a survey by Mercer Human Resource Consulting. The city scores 108.2 and is only marginally ahead of *Geneva*, which scores 108.1, while *Vancouver* follows in third place with a score of 107.7. In contrast, Baghdad is the lowest ranking city in the survey, scoring just 14.5.

World-wide quality of living survey, Mercer
http://www.mercerhr.com/summary.jhtml?idContent=1173105


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

bayviews said:


> Very intriguing question.
> 
> Vancouver is one of the most beautiful cities anywhere in the world & always a wonderful place to visit. I admire what Vancouver has done in terms of building up its downtown with high-rise condos & expanding its excellent public transportation system. The upcoming Olympics should give a big boost to all of lower BC.
> 
> But on a broader level than simply the sustainability of downtown, I really wonder about the fundamentals of Vancouver’s metropolitan economy. It’s so much easier to see what drives SF Bay Area & Seattle economies than Vancouver. What besides global immigration & investment, real estate, tourism, special events & other cyclical activities subject to frequent boom & bust cycles?



You are basically saying that Vancouver is just a resort.This is very common perception among people who don't actually live here.Vancouver's fundamentals are the same as Seattle or San Fran minus the manufacturing. Vancouver for starters has a massive port, which is the largest port on the West Coast of North America in terms of sheer tonnage imported/exported yearly (containers/steel/raw logs/coal/lumber/steel/pulp/sulphur etc)

Vancouver also has one of the largest film production industries in NA,only third to LA/NY. The same can't be said about seattle or san fran


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

But having a manufacturing base is also important to a city. It brings in more capital. 

Yes, Calgary CMA has a higher GMP per capita than Montreal, but then that's not the only measure. Luxembourg has the highest GDP per capita, but you wouldn't argue that it's more wealthy than the US.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

^ Ah, sure I would. Luxembourg is the wealthiest country in the world. It's totally economy size may be paltry when compared to that of the US, but it has more money per person, for whatever reason. I meam, Brazil's total economy size is larger than Canada's, but would u say it has a better economy or that it's a richer country?


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*US Port Ranking by Cargo Volume 2004 (in short tons)*
http://www.aapa-ports.org/pdf/2004_US_PORT_CARGO_TONNAGE_RANKINGS.xls

_Total Trade_
5. Long Beach 80,066,130
14. Los Angeles 51,931,730

*World Port Ranking 2004 - Total Cargo Volume (Metric Tons 000s)*
http://www.aapa-ports.org/pdf/WORLD_PORT_RANKINGS_2004.xls

41. Vancouver 73,574
43. Long Beach 72,684

*2005 North America Container Traffic*
http://www.aapa-ports.org/pdf/2005_NORTH_AMERICAN_CONTAINER_TRAFFIC.pdf
Vancouver - 1,767,379 TEUs
Long Beach - 6,709,818 TEUs
Los Angeles - 7,484,624 TEUs
Seattle - 2,087,929 TEUs
Oakland - 2,272,525 TEUs


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## samsonyuen (Sep 23, 2003)

actually, no. Brazil's GDP is 2/3 the size of Canada's.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

^ That's true if you're looking at GDP nominal, but I was going by purchasing power parity (PPP) which some consider more accurate for comparison purposes.


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## sogod (Jul 12, 2004)

But, Brazil is only 6 or so times the size of Canada, while the US is literally hundreads of times the size of Luxemburg (around 630 times larger). Thats a very signifigant difference.


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## deej (Jan 1, 2005)

Vancouver has changed a lot since I left in the early 90s. It seems more sustainable now than say, 15-20 years ago when the economy was much more resource-based (forestry, mining, fishing) -- and hence susceptible to boom-bust cycles in commodity prices.

Beyond tourism, the port (which someone mentioned before) and transport-related industries are major employers. The film and production industry is one of the largest in NA. I believe tech, while not necessarily as visible as in the Bay Area, is also quite strong. For instance, EA and a number of other games developers have studios in the Vancouver area.

Immune from external shocks? No. More sustainable? Arguably yes. Although one wonders what higher interest rates will do to sales of those condos in the CBD...


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## desirous (Jun 10, 2006)

How will immigration affect Vancouver's evolution? There were so many Asian people there last time I went.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

desirous said:


> How will immigration affect Vancouver's evolution? There were so many Asian people there last time I went.


Vancouver has a very large Hong Kong diaspora. They are concentrated in the southern suburb of Richmond, where it is mostly lowrise housing with a few condominiums along the main road. However, Hong Kong investors have been heavily involved in downtown Vancouver's condominium boom, starting with Concord Pacific Place.

Website : http://www.concordpacific.com/aboutus/about_us.html


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## spongeg (May 1, 2006)

samsonyuen said:


> That's not the only measure. The output of Greater Montreal is still greater than Calgary or Vancouver.


Vancouver's biggest industry is tourism

there is no real industry here like there is in montreal or calgary toronto etc.

it was forestry but that died

anyway Costco has its big signs up now - its openong FALL 2006


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

Vanman said:


> You are basically saying that Vancouver is just a resort.This is very common perception among people who don't actually live here.Vancouver's fundamentals are the same as Seattle or San Fran minus the manufacturing. Vancouver for starters has a massive port, which is the largest port on the West Coast of North America in terms of sheer tonnage imported/exported yearly (containers/steel/raw logs/coal/lumber/steel/pulp/sulphur etc)
> 
> Vancouver also has one of the largest film production industries in NA,only third to LA/NY. The same can't be said about seattle or san fran



Vancouver seems to have at least as much in common with say Miami as Seattle or San Francisco in terms of its economic base. Sure the port traffic is impressive, but its not very containerized. Of course that could be good in the sense that the port has probably kept of lot of jobs that would have vanished with more containerization. Maybe Vancouver can thrive on tourism, filming, real estate speculation, & being a funnel for the huge & endless volume of products coming over from China. If timber is way down, what's being shipped over? 

Could it be that Vancouver with its scenery & climate has become a magnet for those Canadians ( & foreign nationals) who have inherited wealth, have won big lawsuits or lotteries, are on pensions, have "flight capital", or otherwise don't have to work. Maybe the increasingly elusive economies of cities like Vancouver & Miami represent the future for post-corporate North American cities. But sure would be interesting to see more details on Vancouver's Google's, Boeings, Microsofts, Starbucks, Amazon.coms, their employment bases & directions.


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## ejd03 (Oct 23, 2003)

Nouvellecosse said:


> ^ Ah, sure I would. Luxembourg is the wealthiest country in the world. It's totally economy size may be paltry when compared to that of the US, but it has more money per person, for whatever reason. I meam, Brazil's total economy size is larger than Canada's, but would u say it has a better economy or that it's a richer country?


of course not.. but i do not think Luxem is richer than U.S.. their pop is just too small.. I mean I personally think that pop also can determines country's economic power.. too low pop means pretty weak economic power.. I think both per capita and total GDP have to be high enough in order to be a rich nation...


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

bayviews said:


> Vancouver seems to have at least as much in common with say Miami as Seattle or San Francisco in terms of its economic base. Sure the port traffic is impressive, but its not very containerized. Of course that could be good in the sense that the port has probably kept of lot of jobs that would have vanished with more containerization. Maybe Vancouver can thrive on tourism, filming, real estate speculation, & being a funnel for the huge & endless volume of products coming over from China. If timber is way down, what's being shipped over?
> 
> Could it be that Vancouver with its scenery & climate has become a magnet for those Canadians ( & foreign nationals) who have inherited wealth, have won big lawsuits or lotteries, are on pensions, have "flight capital", or otherwise don't have to work. Maybe the increasingly elusive economies of cities like Vancouver & Miami represent the future for post-corporate North American cities. But sure would be interesting to see more details on Vancouver's Google's, Boeings, Microsofts, Starbucks, Amazon.coms, their employment bases & directions.


If you take a look at the link you will see the diversity of Vancouver's many exports.

http://www.portvancouver.com/media/port_facts.html

As for Vancouver's other industries you might not have known about:
www.vancouvereconomic.com/key_sectors/default.htm


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## Rachmaninov (Aug 5, 2004)

I have this impression that Vancouver is a colony of Hong Kong's... since so many HKers who wanted to relax decide to reside in Vancouver.

I have heard that condos not quite preferred in western countries, so I would expect that some of the condos built by Li Ka Shing were actually designed for HKers who are used to living in them. Correct me if I were wrong.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

ejd03 said:


> of course not.. but i do not think Luxem is richer than U.S.. their pop is just too small.. I mean I personally think that pop also can determines country's economic power.. too low pop means pretty weak economic power.. I think both per capita and total GDP have to be high enough in order to be a rich nation...


Well I happen to view wealth as being a different thing from economic power. U can be powerful because of your wealth, because of your numbers, or both. But I don't see how being more powerful because you're larger automatically means your richer even if you're not. :dunno:

I mean, how about China? Is it a richer country than Luxembourg too? It may not have an economy the size of the US, but its total GDP is still some 65x that of Luxembourg.


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## Nouvellecosse (Jun 4, 2005)

Rachmaninov said:


> I have this impression that Vancouver is a colony of Hong Kong's... since so many HKers who wanted to relax decide to reside in Vancouver.
> 
> I have heard that condos not quite preferred in western countries, so I would expect that some of the condos built by Li Ka Shing were actually designed for HKers who are used to living in them. Correct me if I were wrong.


Well, there r a great many condos built across Canada, particularly in Toronto. I won't say for sure that you're wrong, since TO has a very large Asian community, and I don't know the demographics of TO condo buyers. But I've never heard of them being mainly prefered by non-native born Canadians.


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## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

Nouvellecosse said:


> Well, there r a great many condos built across Canada, particularly in Toronto. I won't say for sure that you're wrong, since TO has a very large Asian community, and I don't know the demographics of TO condo buyers. But I've never heard of them being mainly prefered by non-native born Canadians.


I don't think there are statistics that break down transactions by demographic group (I'm not sure if it's even legal in Canada to do that). However, the largest downtown residential redevelopment projects in Vancouver and Toronto were done by Concord Adex, with Hong Kong investor backing. Hence, I'd think there is a lot of marketing geared specifically towards the Chinese population in those cities as investment properties.


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## bayviews (Mar 3, 2006)

Vanman said:


> If you take a look at the link you will see the diversity of Vancouver's many exports.




Thanks for posting the these links, which do provide more useful info about the details of Vancouver's economy.


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## sukh (Sep 30, 2004)

> Other problems include height restrictions and strict building regulations (which reduces supply as cities expand, and as thus rises prices). Businesses are starting to move out into the suburbs, which means people in the downtown have to commute to the suburbs, and makes the area car-dependent.



Downtown is going to expand eastward, as of now there are some sites that can occomodate office towers, alot of office space will be in mixed use buildings, which is good. Commute times have remained the same in Vancouver, because of good planning, more jobs are in town centers across the region, so alot of people dont have to travel all to downtown. Whereas not as good planned cities, Toronto, Calgary have seen their commute times go up. Town centers are the way to go, hence why the Vancouver model is interesting to so many other North American cities. All the big companies should have a presence downtown, but that doesnt mean every job has to be there. In order for Vancouver to attarct more businesses, it has to address its tax system(which is one of the main reasons business move elsewhere), it needs to look at easing the height restrictions, and other restrictions against development.


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## VanSeaPor (Mar 12, 2005)

sukh said:


> Downtown is going to expand eastward


To where? Because it certainly isn't going to replace Gastown and/or Chinatown.


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## deej (Jan 1, 2005)

^^

When I was in Van earlier this summer, it seemed that there was certainly room for development around the port lands east of Canada Place (wasn't the Whitecaps' stadium proposed for that area?). The area east of False Creek (False Creek Flats?) is also undeveloped. I'd think that careful enhancement or renovation of some of the building stock in the Downtown East Side would probably also make sense and rejuvenate the area as well.


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## Hed_Kandi (Jan 23, 2006)

hkskyline said:


> *Zurich* ranks as the world’s top city for quality of living, according to a survey by Mercer Human Resource Consulting. The city scores 108.2 and is only marginally ahead of *Geneva*, which scores 108.1, while *Vancouver* follows in third place with a score of 107.7. In contrast, Baghdad is the lowest ranking city in the survey, scoring just 14.5.
> 
> World-wide quality of living survey, Mercer
> http://www.mercerhr.com/summary.jhtml?idContent=1173105



"The Economist Intelligence Unit named Vancouver the 'best' city in the world"

http://www.citymayors.com/environment/eiu_bestcities.html


If you take the averages of the city rankings between Mercer and EIU, Vancouver comes out as the top place in the world to live !


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## Crispy (Mar 31, 2006)

Vancouver is an awesome city; the best by far of any city I have ever been in, and I've been in more than a few. Auckland, NZ is not too shabby either. Therefore, whatever Vancouver is doing, they should keep doing it. Perfection cannot be improved upon.


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## cfloryan (Mar 16, 2006)

I don't understand the question. "Sustainability" refers to harvesting something in such a manner as to ensure it's existence for eternity. For example, a sustainable source of water would be one where the water is replaced, let's say by a river, as fast as it's being drawn, but I'm sure you all knew this.

How does this concept apply to a city? I realize that perhaps you didn't literally mean to ask if Vancouver is sustainable, but rather used the term "sustainable" as a synonym for environmentally friendly or something?

My point is, could you clarify what you mean by "sustainable"? or better yet, use a more appropriate adjective so people can actually give meaningful answers.


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## Brandon1978 (Aug 31, 2006)

*It is basically a resort.*



Vanman said:


> You are basically saying that Vancouver is just a resort.This is very common perception among people who don't actually live here.Vancouver's fundamentals are the same as Seattle or San Fran minus the manufacturing. Vancouver for starters has a massive port, which is the largest port on the West Coast of North America in terms of sheer tonnage imported/exported yearly (containers/steel/raw logs/coal/lumber/steel/pulp/sulphur etc)
> 
> Vancouver also has one of the largest film production industries in NA,only third to LA/NY. The same can't be said about seattle or san fran


I have lived in both Seattle and Vancouver. Vancouver does very strongly suggest a resort city. Things happen there seasonally. Those high-rise condos? A lot of them are empty much of the year--normally winter--when the tenants live elsewhere. Tourism drives Vancouver. It does have a big port, although much of this is distributed among the various municipalities of Burrard Inlet, including North Vancouver.

The same cannot be said about Vancouver as can be said about Seattle or San Francisco (where did these arbitrary cities come from) in regard to software, biotechnology, medical research, aerospace, et cetera, which characterise the more diverse economies of other North American cities.


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

VanSeaPor said:


> I suggest a solution for Vancouver: deregulate the housing market to lower prices, and concentrate on building medium-density structures. As owning an apartment in downtown wouldn't be as profitable as it once was, people would start moving to other areas to develop, and commerce could expand in tune with the city.


The biggest obstacle is to 'deregulating' the market are NIMBYs. They're still in control at city hall. Also, the city's planning department has successfully wrestled a variety of additional amenities from developers in exchange for additional height. Losing this bargaining chip may not be in the city's best interets.


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## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

Vancouver is indeed a haven for people who already have money, and want a nice place with a nice view. There are other industries, like biotech, but when you look at corporate formation and creation, Vancouver lags behind other cities. There are companies IN Vancouver, certainly. But how many companies can you name that have come FROM Vancouver? 

Physically, it is a very attractive place to live. Particularly if you have money. But let's not forget that downtown Vancouver only houses a small portion of the metro region's 2.2+ million people. A lot of economic activity happens in places like Burnaby or Surrey. And those places do face quite a lot of traffic congestion (especially along Hwy 1.), sprawl, etc. The Vancouver metro area effectively sprawls out to Abbotsford. 

The downtown core is an interesting area to study, but when we talk about Vancouver as a whole, it's important to remember the whole area.


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

Brandon1978 said:


> I have lived in both Seattle and Vancouver. Vancouver does very strongly suggest a resort city. Things happen there seasonally. Those high-rise condos? A lot of them are empty much of the year--normally winter--when the tenants live elsewhere. Tourism drives Vancouver. It does have a big port, although much of this is distributed among the various municipalities of Burrard Inlet, including North Vancouver.
> 
> The same cannot be said about Vancouver as can be said about Seattle or San Francisco (where did these arbitrary cities come from) in regard to software, biotechnology, medical research, aerospace, et cetera, which characterise the more diverse economies of other North American cities.



Once again:

If you take a look at the link you will see the diversity of Vancouver's many exports.

http://www.portvancouver.com/media/port_facts.html

As for Vancouver's other industries you might not have known about:
www.vancouvereconomic.com/key_sectors/default.htm

Whistler is a resort. Vancouver is a city.


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## KGB (Sep 12, 2002)

> Once again:
> 
> If you take a look at the link you will see the diversity of Vancouver's many exports.



Uh...you can't count products that are just loaded and unloaded off ships as "Vancouver" products. The port itself is a good industry to have. But the person was correct...Vancouver is not a major diversified economy...and not a major player in any single industry either. It has whatever importance its limited regional significance allows it.






KGB


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## Vanman (May 19, 2004)

All hail the king of all trolls^^^


Anyways by exports I didn't mean what is solely produced in Vancouver, any numb skull can figure out that a port is just a gateway between point A and point B and does not 'produce' anything. 



```
But the person was correct...Vancouver is not a major diversified economy...and not a major player in any single industry either. It has whatever importance its limited regional significance allows it.
```
Really, because you obviously know Vancouver so well.

A few significant industries that Vancouver is a major player in:

Games development (largest hub of game developers in the world)
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Industry ( world leader)
Film and television production ( bigger than TO, 3rd largest in NA)

And last that I heard Torontoism was not a catch phrase used around the world.


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## tablemtn (May 2, 2006)

BC should slash its provincial business tax rate - ideally, they'd harmonize it with Alberta.


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## Huhu (Jun 5, 2004)

Wow I'm surprised it took 3 pages to turn this thread into a Toronto vs. Vancouver thread. :applause: 



hkskyline said:


> I don't think there are statistics that break down transactions by demographic group (I'm not sure if it's even legal in Canada to do that). However, the largest downtown residential redevelopment projects in Vancouver and Toronto were done by Concord Adex, with Hong Kong investor backing. Hence, I'd think there is a lot of marketing geared specifically towards the Chinese population in those cities as investment properties.


It is illegal to discriminate based upon ethnicity when buying/selling/renting property, so I would think that they wouldn't keep those kinds of statistics.

Btw, condomium and apartment living didn't suddenly show up with the wave of Hong Kong and Taiwanese immigrants. It already existed for a long time in Vancouver, hence the fair number of condos in the city which are quite old. The latest boom is by far the largest and it is true that HK money started it off, successfully marketing high density living (which already existed) to Canadians in general, not just Asian-Canadians.


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## spongeg (May 1, 2006)

the west end has been dense since the 60's/70's - hence all the ugly buildings


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## rt_0891 (Mar 13, 2005)

tablemtn said:


> BC should slash its provincial business tax rate - ideally, they'd harmonize it with Alberta.


I don't think Victoria has this kind of financial leeway right now, especially when resource revenues/royalties are so turbulent these days. If BC is given the green light for offshore oil exploration and development, then the province will be in a better position to implement such policies.


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