# Which big American city is the most European?



## Petronius (Mar 4, 2004)

none.. Americans cities are "American". European cities are "European". Even if there are similarities, no American city is European. Or more european than the others, they're just American.


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## Wssps (Mar 22, 2005)

but San Francisco for coastal port cities like Rotterdam or Antwerpen.[/QUOTE]

No Rotterdam and Antwerpen can't be compared with San Fransico, they are all so different :sleepy:


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## Hviid (Jan 8, 2005)

From the photos i've seen here, Boston looks the most European.


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## James704 (Jun 16, 2004)

Boston. SF and DC are very European too.


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## JDRS (Feb 8, 2004)

Boston, SF and New Orleans.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

Actually you are all wrong...it is Old San Juan..

Philadelphia looks like Dublin a bit and parts of London. How can one possibly think that anything on the West Coast is more Old World Europe than this...?


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## Cruces1 (Jan 7, 2005)

Pedrocid said:


> none.. Americans cities are "American". European cities are "European". Even if there are similarities, no American city is European. Or more european than the others, they're just American.


Thanks for playing the game. :bash:


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## schreiwalker (May 13, 2005)

out of that list its philly for sure. Much of boston (outside the back bay and beacon hill etc.) is made up of new england style detached, shingled houses and multilevels.











Philly is all brick, everywhere, with pubs and delis on every corner (shown in previous post). Even the suburbs like Manayunk and Camden are built similarly.


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## gronier (Mar 2, 2005)

Boston is much European than any other city in the US, come on, Boston is THE Victorian City of the US.


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

some san juan from me....
I took tons of photos, I'll start with Old San Juan which is probably the most Europeanish neighborhood in the entire "US" (aside from Savannah, Charleston, Boston, New Orleans and Philadelphia. I guess it is our Quebec City with a wall and all.
























































































































































































































































































































La Perla








more to come......
next up Condado
































and Ocean Park


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

Schreiwalker....thanks....many Europeans say that Philly is so much like home.
Can you believe that only 3 people chose Philly?


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## philadweller (Oct 30, 2003)

"Boston is much European than any other city in the US, come on, Boston is THE Victorian City of the US."

Gronier you need to get out more...


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## gruber (Jun 11, 2004)

no one.


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## ChinaboyUSA (May 10, 2005)

Of course Boston.


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## schreiwalker (May 13, 2005)

gronier said:


> Boston is much European than any other city in the US, come on, Boston is THE Victorian City of the US.
> 
> I'm not saying boston isn't a great city (I move there soon). I'm saying that outside a few select areas the bulk of boston (and places like cambridge/somerville, which are essentially boston) is built at detached houses with shingles. In other words quintessentially american, with a boston urban flavor.
> 
> ...


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## Cruces1 (Jan 7, 2005)




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## carfentanyl (May 14, 2003)

Is it about the way the city looks, or the way the people live their everyday lives? That's pretty essential.

A huge difference between US and European cities, especially now summer's here again, are terraces. While throughout Europe a lot of bars and restaurants have terraces outside I seldom see them in the USA. Sometimes squares are completely filled with them and people just enjoy themselves drinking and eating. It's a big cultural difference so I would say the US city that has the biggest terrace culture is most European.

This is what I mean, terraces in my country:


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## *Sweetkisses* (Dec 26, 2004)

Manayunk is not a suburb. It is part of Philly


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## schreiwalker (May 13, 2005)

philadweller said:


> Schreiwalker....thanks....many Europeans say that Philly is so much like home.
> Can you believe that only 3 people chose Philly?



I'm not too surprised few people have chosen philly. it doesn't ever get much love.


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## Talbot (Jul 13, 2004)

Out of the list, Philedelphia and Boston. But whats not in the list, New Orleans, Montreal, and Quebec.


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## schreiwalker (May 13, 2005)

*Sweetkisses* said:


> Manayunk is not a suburb. It is part of Philly


haha, so it is, so it is. :doh: I never really thought of it, I guess, cause it has such a distinctive feel. 

my claim though for the towns outside philly still holds true.


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## schreiwalker (May 13, 2005)

carfentanyl said:


> Is it about the way the city looks, or the way the people live their everyday lives? That's pretty essential.


outdoor seating for cafes has become very popular throughout the states recently, though it depends largely on the width street that the restaurant faces (very few pedestrian squares as shown in your pictures).

I'd have no idea what cities could claim to have the best opportunities for it. DC has lots of spots for outdoor seating, but I'm sure the best outdoor seating must be out west, where it doesn't rain as much.


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## *Sweetkisses* (Dec 26, 2004)

schreiwalker said:


> I'm not too surprised few people have chosen philly. it doesn't ever get much love.


It really doesn't


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## mankawabi (Dec 30, 2005)

philadweller said:


> some san juan from me....
> I took tons of photos, I'll start with Old San Juan which is probably the most Europeanish neighborhood in the entire "US" (aside from Savannah, Charleston, Boston, New Orleans and Philadelphia. I guess it is our Quebec City with a wall and all.
> 
> 
> ...


San Juan is very European, in a "deep Mediterranean meets deep Caribbean" kind of way. Its European influences are mostly from southern Spain, Corsica, and southern Italy, e.g., some of the poorest parts of Western Europe, although it also has a strong Mallorcan (Baleaic Islands) influence (and Mallorca is quite rich). So, to rephrase, San Juan is European in a "trashy, yet lovely" way. 

Thanks for the pictures! :bow:


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## i_am_hydrogen (Dec 9, 2004)

None. All of the cities listed in the poll are uniquely American.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Either New Orleans or San Francisco


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## i_am_hydrogen (Dec 9, 2004)

What makes SF and New Orleans European? Both of these cities are so entrenched in American culture that they cannot be said to be European.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

hydrogen said:


> What makes SF and New Orleans European? Both of these cities are so entrenched in American culture that they cannot be said to be European.


SF-architecture, New Orleans-history. Anyway, every US city have their European influence.


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## nathanh6686 (Jun 14, 2005)

San Francisco -


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## dhuwman (Oct 6, 2005)

How about Georgetown, Washington DC?


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## i_am_hydrogen (Dec 9, 2004)

WANCH said:


> SF-architecture, New Orleans-history. Anyway, every US city have their European influence.


SF's vernacular architecture is pretty unique and unlike anything in Europe except for perhaps Greece. And a city is far more than its architecture. SF was the center of the counterculture, anti-war movement, and sexual revolution in the U.S. during the 1960s and 70s. SF has nothing to do with Europe.

New Orleans. It may have a French Quarter, but this is the crossroads of jazz, blues, and zydeco--three styles of music that are uniquely American. Many cities can trace their roots back to European settlement, but that doesn't mean that they aren't American. 

Call me a jingoist, even though I'm not one, but I think every American city is uniquely American. Any European influences are superficial at best.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

hydrogen said:


> SF's vernacular architecture is pretty unique and unlike anything in Europe except for perhaps Greece. And a city is far more than its architecture. SF was the center of the counterculture, anti-war movement, and sexual revolution in the U.S. during the 1960s and 70s. SF has nothing to do with Europe.
> 
> New Orleans. It may have a French Quarter, but this is the crossroads of jazz, blues, and zydeco--three styles of music that are uniquely American. Many cities can trace their roots back to European settlement, but that doesn't mean that they aren't American.
> 
> Call me a jingoist, even though I'm not one, but I think every American city is uniquely American. Any European influences are superficial at best.


True. As for SF, the city had a strong Italian influence especially with business, finance and chocolate


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## Telfordboy (Feb 22, 2006)

Sitting outside and drinking is more of a continental European thing we don't do it so much in the the UK, there is an obvious reason for this, but also because we have an unfortunate attitude to drinking which is getting wasted quickly then acting like thugs in our city centres. I think the reason why Philly doesn't get voted for is cos Europeans don't see anywhere near as much of it as we do with Boston NY and some of the others because there aren't many tv shows set in Philladelphia. I wish i'd voted for Philly.


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## i_am_hydrogen (Dec 9, 2004)

And why is Washington on this list? Because it has low-rise density reminiscent of many European cities? Let's look past the built environment and take a real look at what's there: The U.S. Supreme Court, the White House, the U.S. Capitol, the FBI, the CIA, the Pentagon, the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial, and so on... Washington, D.C. is the seat of American government. It's the least European of any of the cities listed in this poll.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

hydrogen said:


> And why is Washington on this list? Because it has low-rise density reminiscent of many European cities? Let's look past the built environment and take a real look at what's there: The U.S. Supreme Court, the White House, the U.S. Capitol, the FBI, the CIA, the Pentagon, the Washington Monument, the Jefferson Memorial, and so on... Washington, D.C. is the seat of American government. It's the least European of any of the cities listed in this poll.


Also Chicago


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## Mr Bricks (May 6, 2005)

In lifestyle, streetlife, nightlife and architecture i has to be NYC and SF. Boston also looks quite european.


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## eklips (Mar 29, 2005)

mankawabi said:


> San Juan is very European, in a "deep Mediterranean meets deep Caribbean" kind of way. Its European influences are mostly from southern Spain, Corsica, and southern Italy, e.g., some of the poorest parts of Western Europe, although it also has a strong Mallorcan (Baleaic Islands) influence (and Mallorca is quite rich). So, to rephrase, San Juan is European in a "trashy, yet lovely" way.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures! :bow:



Why did you need to quote all those pictures just to say this three line post????


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## Küsel (Sep 16, 2004)

Without big checking - Boston, clear! In Canada I would say Montreal and in South America BA.


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## Manila-X (Jul 28, 2005)

Kuesel said:


> Without big checking - Boston, clear! In Canada I would say Montreal and in South America BA.


Definitely BA. In fact alot of Argentines more consider themselves as European than South American.


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## Castle_Bravo (Jan 6, 2006)

I think that Boston had the most European look


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

ReddAlert said:


> I dont agree with that. While New York may have some "European-esque" areas--it is an American city. The skyscrapers are a big part of New York! Manhattan is filled to the brim with skyscrapers and tall buildings. Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, and of course Staten Island are all architecturally American.
> 
> I just find it ridicolous to compare American cities to European cities. No part of NYC looks like Paris, Athens, Barcelona, Moscow, or Berlin. That is the same for most US cities. In reality, most American cities that have European character look English. Boston I could imagine would maybe feel like some British port city (which it was at some time)...but not Paris or Madrid. San Francisco has similarities with cities like Lisbon, but its architecture is so much different than any city in Europe. New Orleans has its French Quarter and its old European like areas--but even that city is mostly like other cities in the American South and arguably more like cities in Latin America and the Carribean than Paris.


It's nont really a matter of whether you agree with me or not. It is established historical fact that New York looked to Europe as a model its development.

What we CAN debate is how closely this model was followed. And its a mixed bag, and the big thing that goes against this model like I said is the development of the skyscraper.


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## LLoydGeorge (Jan 14, 2006)

goonsta said:


> more pics of NYC, the most European city


Those photos could be from any city in the world.

You seem offended by the unparalled grandeur of NY vis-a-vis other cities that happen to be in the US. You have to agree that it is a true city state that just happens to be located in the continental US.


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## goonsta (Sep 11, 2002)

I seem offended by posting photos?

I agreed with the thread, so I posted some photos showing evidence of how European NYC is.


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## globill (Dec 4, 2005)

DonQui said:


> It's nont really a matter of whether you agree with me or not. It is established historical fact that New York looked to Europe as a model its development.
> 
> What we CAN debate is how closely this model was followed. And its a mixed bag, and the big thing that goes against this model like I said is the development of the skyscraper.



well then, blame Chicago then for the fact that New York is not a perfectly formed creation of Europe . Those darnednabbit Midwesterners, tempting the coastal European into heathen American ways of thinking.


So sad to see this Chicagoisation spreading to the motherland.


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## EtherealMist (Jul 26, 2005)

ReddAlert said:


> So if you have a city with a huge skyline with lots of people living in tall towers--then are they American styled cities?


So by your definition of American styled city LA is not one of them. Its something else... autocentric styled American city?



ReddAlert said:


> Manhattan is not like London or Paris, no city resembles it in Europe as much as you wish to try to convince me. It was the first skyscraper city and the worlds first truly major mulicultural city--trends that are being followed by London, Paris, Tokyo, Shanghai, and Sydney. On ground level, it may look European with all the density and street life---but in fact, its how American cities would have turned out had there not being the dawn of suburbs and white flight....as well as our car obsession. And having twisty and chaotic streets makes a place European?


Yes, Twisty and chaotic streets makes a place European. Any city that was laid out before the automobile was invented will have crazy narrow streets. That is why parts of cities like Boston and NYC (Lower Manhattan) are like this. 



ReddAlert said:


> So basically Sao Paulo, Johanesburg, Jerusalem, Mexico City, Mumbai, and San Francisco are all European style cities? Frankly, you could say that European cities ripped off cities of the Middle East then right?


No they are just older cities just like all European cities are older cities. Just like Tokyo is full of tiny twisty streets because it is a giant mash up of villages. NYC, Philly and Boston are older cities.The streets of downtown manhattan reflect its European origins...




ReddAlert said:


> And you are wrong about Boston...both cities have much, much better skylines than any city in Europe. Philly is so American, it is not even funny. Its rowhouses and skyline look nothing like Europe, same with Boston. I have seen no city in Europe that looks like this....


I guess I didnt word it properly. I was comparing them to New York not Europe.... Their skylines are not nearly as dominate as New York's so by your definition of an "American city" they are more european... I know that Philly and Boston have much better skylines than the average European city. And I know they are both REALLY American just like New York City but this thread is about which American city is the most European.



I don't know what we are trying to argue any more. We all know that cities like Boston, Philly and New York are far more European than cities like Phoenix, Houston, LA... They were formed much longer ago, and therefore have buildings that are much older and in certain spots very much resemble European cities. Of course Boston Philly and NY are far far different than any European city, but they are as European as it gets in the US.


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## EtherealMist (Jul 26, 2005)

DonQui said:


> It's nont really a matter of whether you agree with me or not. It is established historical fact that New York looked to Europe as a model its development.
> 
> What we CAN debate is how closely this model was followed. And its a mixed bag, and the big thing that goes against this model like I said is the development of the skyscraper.



yes, exactly!



globill said:


> well then, blame Chicago then for the fact that New York is not a perfectly formed creation of Europe . Those darnednabbit Midwesterners, tempting the coastal European into heathen American ways of thinking.
> 
> 
> So sad to see this Chicagoisation spreading to the motherland.


please, the Skyscraper is an invention of the Eastcoast just as much as it is an invention of the Midwest...


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## Monty Burns (Sep 8, 2005)

EtherealMist said:


> please, the Skyscraper is an invention of the Eastcoast just as much as it is an invention of the Midwest...



Wrong. Chicago is the birthplace of the modern 'skyscraper' as a product of
the Bauhaus school of architecture.


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

Monty Burns said:


> Wrong. Chicago is the birthplace of the modern 'skyscraper' as a product of
> the Bauhaus school of architecture.


Right right. :|

Just like it was only Americans who invented the car and invented the plane right? 

Chicago and New York were the birthplace of the modern skyscraper.


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## USS Yankee (Nov 28, 2005)

Boston is the most European city that the US has. To say otherwise is pure folly to be honest.

Though Montreal easily beats any city in NA has being the most European-like.


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## jmancuso (Jan 9, 2003)

phoenix, arizona


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

USS Yankee said:


> Boston is the most European city that the US has. To say otherwise is pure folly to be honest.
> 
> Though Montreal easily beats any city in NA has being the most European-like.


Montreal? Hardly.

It looks like an average American city except for a very small part of the historical downtown that is smaller than Boston and Philadelphia.


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## Monty Burns (Sep 8, 2005)

DonQui said:


> Right right. :|
> 
> Just like it was only Americans who invented the car and invented the plane right?
> 
> Chicago and New York were the birthplace of the modern skyscraper.


When I say 'modern', I mean from WW2 onward. Chicago was where the Bauhaus movement moved to from Germany during WW2 to escape persecution of Jews. Members of this group include people you may or may not have heard of, like Mies Van der Rohe, Walter Gropius, etc... Many members of this 'Skyscraper' appreciation club seem woefully unaware of the origins of the modern 'skyscraper', and unaware of the role Chicago played.
'Bauhaus' is more than a musical group, or a brand of sofas.


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

Monty Burns said:


> When I say 'modern', I mean from WW2 onward. Chicago was where the Bauhaus movement moved to from Germany during WW2 to escape persecution of Jews. Members of this group include people you may or may
> not have heard of, like Mies Van der Rohe, Walter Gropius, etc...
> Many members of this 'Skyscraper' appreciation club seem woefully unaware of the origins of the modern 'skyscraper', and unaware of the role Chicago played.


Remind me whe the EMPIRE STATE BUILDING, CHRYSLER BUILDING, and WOOLWORTH BUILDING were built?

:crazy2:

Now they don't count because they are pre-WW2? :rofl:


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## Monty Burns (Sep 8, 2005)

DonQui said:


> Remind me whe the EMPIRE STATE BUILDING, CHRYSLER BUILDING, and WOOLWORTH BUILDING were built?
> 
> :crazy2:
> 
> Now they don't count because they are pre-WW2? :rofl:


If you need reminding, they were built prior to WW2

It is pointless discussing this with you. Obviously you are not interested in hearing the truth. Re-read what I wrote about 'modern' before you write any further nonsense.

I must follow that quote that, when paraphrased, advises against arguing with idiots as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Oohmmmmmm......


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## FROM LOS ANGELES (Sep 25, 2005)

I would say NY, but Ny is mixed up with a lot more than just Europeans, so Boston is my choice.


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

Monty Burns said:


> If you need reminding, they were built prior to WW2
> 
> It is pointless discussing this with you. Obviously you are not interested in hearing the truth. Re-read what I wrote about 'modern' before you write any further nonsense.
> 
> I must follow that quote that, when paraphrased, advises against arguing with idiots as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Oohmmmmmm......


I did read. And your "Chicago is the birthplace of the modern skyscraper after WWII" argument is frankly idiotic. Some of this country's most iconic skyscrapers were built prior to WW2. Any attempt to leave out the Empire State Building (!!!!!!!) as being important for skyscraper development is retarded.

And what the hell is the "modern" criterion. The US woke up on V-Day and said, "ooooooh goodie, we are in the modern era now?" :laugh:


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## Monty Burns (Sep 8, 2005)

You have a very good basis of general knowledge of World history, and a weak knowledge of the history of the modern 'skyscraper'. The 'Father of the Modern Skyscraper' is Mies Van der Rohe. Heard of him? I am not asking you to study architecture, just do a tiny bit of googling before you reveal any more gaps in your education. There is a stylistic difference between old 'skyscrapers' like the Chrysler building, and newer ones designed by Van der Rohe. Perhaps you would label the designers of the pyramids in Egypt as the fathers of the modern skyscraper. Enough. There is no point discussing this with you any further as it is like talking to a brick wall, only less fun. Goodbye!


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

Monty Burns said:


> You have a very good basis of general knowledge of World history, and a weak knowledge of the history of the modern 'skyscraper'. The 'Father of the Modern Skyscraper' is Mies Van der Rohe. Heard of him? I am not asking you to study architecture, just do a tiny bit of googling before you reveal any more gaps in your education. There is a stylistic difference between old 'skyscrapers' like the Chrysler building, and newer ones designed by Van der Rohe. Perhaps you would label the designers of the pyramids in Egypt as the fathers of the skyscraper. Enough. There is no point discussing this with you any further as it is like talking to a brick wall, only less fun. Goodbye!


I think the nuclear plant is getting to you. 

The Empire State building was built a few years before WWII even started. How is this not "modern" enough for you.

Comparing the Empire State Building to the pyramids of Giza? How stupid.

:crazy2:

PS: I hope you are not attempting to say that this Ivy Leauge-educated grad student is in need of a better education. Because frankly, chances are, my education blows yours away. So stuff it.


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## babycake (May 21, 2006)

gronier said:


> Everybody knows that here in America we have "The American Way of Life", and that our culture and traditions are in many ways different to European culture and traditions. But from this list of cities, Wich is the most European style in every sense of the word??


LOL, even if you call it "The American Way of Life", it has mostly originated from Europe. America is nothing else, but just another branch of modified Europe, like Australia.


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## DonQui (Jan 10, 2005)

babycake said:


> LOL, even if you call it "The American Way of Life", it has mostly originated from Europe. America is nothing else, but just another branch of modified Europe, like Australia.


:crazy:

Part of the Western world, obviously. But nothing more than a branch? BS.


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## AM Putra (Dec 24, 2006)

I think it was Boston.


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## Minato ku (Aug 9, 2005)

Slartibartfas said:


> Wifi is also to be found in some traditional coffee houses here in Vienna. Sometimes it is costly, but some also offer it for free.
> 
> I actually hate Starbucks. For the prices of a coffee house, the least I can expect is some service. And I want my cup of water next to my coffee. Thats obligatory. A coffee house that doesnt do so, sees me never again.
> 
> ...


I agree.
In Paris you can have the Wifi in everywhere, Paris is so dense. They are so many wifi networks in the city.
In my home, my computer see 17 wifi networks. :lol:


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## martinmartiini (Jul 21, 2011)

*european vs american cities*

ok, hai!

registered to this forum today since don't know where else to post this question.
this may be considered as spamming/trolling but anyway

so ... why don't americans plan & build european cities ?!
for exaple, take european cities like:
London, Paris, Madrid, Brussels, Zurich, Berlin, Frankfurdt, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Helsinki, ... etc
versus
New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, Detroit, Miami, Seattle, Los Angeles, ... etc

in my opinion, Americans should:
ban suburban sprawl, tax motorcars, develop inter-city rail, build tramlinks, metro .. etc 
Build strictly-pedestrian/bicycle town-areas similar to european old-towns , build seaside promenades, public parks and forests ... etc
concentrate high-rise financial districts away from city-centre similar to London city and Paris City .. 
Build out-of-city industrial and high-tech estates ... etc etc

btw, I live in a rural seaside area in Scandinavia

Martin


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## tpe (Aug 10, 2005)

A bit OT:

Martin,

Have you visited NYC, Chicago, or any of the older US cities?

Do you relaize why Chicago and Manhattan are planned on a monumental scale? 

And do you know why historically, the high-rise/financial districts are in the downtown areas?

I suggest that you read more about the evolution of urban centers in the USA, before you attempt to project/suggest what Americans should and should not do.



martinmartiini said:


> ok, hai!
> 
> registered to this forum today since don't know where else to post this question.
> this may be considered as spamming/trolling but anyway
> ...


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## harrypowell (Apr 29, 2009)

Been looking over this thread. New York's famous 'grid' system was based on Lisbon's as far as I know. 

Much of American culture is a form of and indeed based on European. 

Even with the term 'skyscraper' there is European influence. The first iron- framed , glass curtain- walled building was built in Liverpool in 1864.

Europe is way to diverse to identify a 'typical' European city or feel.


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## LondonFox (Nov 4, 2010)

Boston... it is like a little slice of England in America.


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## martinmartiini (Jul 21, 2011)

*european vs american cities*

.. ok ...

Seattle and Minneapolis look most appealing out of US cities, at least for me .. or .. 
some small town in USA - Bloomington,Indiana; Frederick,Maryland

ok .. so .. 
none of my business how USA work as a country and what is best way to build cities, infrastructure, human habitat, etc etc.
USA is obviously the biggest energy consumer on the planet.
USA is an industrialized nation, car-dependent, trade-focused .. and therefore, 
straightforward city grid and city blocks of skyscrapers is the most rational urban layout for USA cities, right? ok ..
.. but ..
there are other city designs which suit humans very well -
Montreal, Canada
Costa Rica, San José
Denmark, Copenhagen
Finland, Helsinki
Germany, Düsseldorf
Spain, Madrid
Switzerland, Zurich
Austria, Vienna
Australia, Melbourne
...
.. or .. simply build communist concrete blocks http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinmartiini/galleries/72157627129767633/


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## harrypowell (Apr 29, 2009)

American posters on this thread have been using the 'gridlike' structure of American cities as an Americanism.

When actually the road 'grid' network/structure was born in Europe. And just copied.


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## the spliff fairy (Oct 21, 2002)

^actually China, aeons ago in Xian.


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

New York (at least Manhattan and maybe other centric districts like Brooklyn) has a very European way of life, of course with an American touch. Ive always thought New York is closer to Europe than to the American inland.


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## tpe (Aug 10, 2005)

the spliff fairy said:


> ^actually China, aeons ago in Xian.



Correct.


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## tpe (Aug 10, 2005)

harrypowell said:


> Been looking over this thread. New York's famous 'grid' system was based on Lisbon's as far as I know.


As cited many times, city grids have been built ages ago in East Asia -- in Xian and Kyoto, for example. I can assure you that the Chicago and Manhattan grids were not based on these earlier models.

As with many other things in the USA, the origin of city grids is purely a question of ECONOMICS (i.e., money/greed). This partly explains the unprecidented scale relative to earlier systems. As succinctly stated in the Encyclopedia of Chicago:

_The rectangular grid of roads, farms, and city streets, so common to the Middle West and the region's largest metropolis, is largely a byproduct of financial considerations. Congress, eager to sell western lands to pay off the national debt, passed the Land Ordinance of 1785, an essential step in these sales. The ordinance provided that each territory would employ a geographer to survey the land, dividing it into townships six miles square, with the "townships, or fractional parts of townships, by numbers progressively from south to north, always beginning each range with the number one." Within the townships, surveyors were to mark off square mile sections numbered from one to thirty-six. The numbered grid thus created was the beginning of a system in which clear title could be quickly determined—ideally designed for real estate sales. Chicago's grid fit neatly into the township pattern first established for the region by the 1785 Land Ordinance. Financial considerations again played a role in its implementation. Surveyor James Thompson laid out the town for the Canal Commissioners in preparation for the sale of lots to finance the proposed Illinois and Michigan Canal, with the first lots selling on September 4, 1830. 
_

http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/410050.html

And in Manhattan:

_What was new in the New York plan was the standardized system of long narrow blocks—and the almost complete absence of spaces or circles to relieve the relentless geometry of the grid. *The grid was not laid out primarily with transportation in view. [@Martin, please take note!]* Rather, the purpose of the grid was the rational exploitation of real estate. The city of the era relied on water transportation at its periphery._

http://www.aiga.org/200-years-on-the-grid/

The blocks in both Xian and Kyoto were based on the concept of wards, which were administrative units relating to clan and sometimes ethnicities. Financial considerations were secondary.



> Even with the term 'skyscraper' there is European influence. The first iron- framed , glass curtain- walled building was built in Liverpool in 1864.


There had been *IRON*-frame buildings in Europe as early as the 18th century, but they are not true skyscrapers. It's a particular innovation in *STEEL*-frame construction *combined with* advances in plumbing technology *AND* the elevator made the Chicago and NYC skyscrapers a reality. It's a conjunction of all these that made HEIGHT possible.


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## Bricken Ridge (Feb 16, 2008)

Manhattan in New York is the most European of any city in the USA. Buildings and street ambience is similar to Paris or London or Madrid IMO. People in Manhattan are very fashionable ala Paris and London. Boston? A lot wear shorts in the streets, restaurants and bars, at least during the warm months.


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## sweet-d (Jul 20, 2010)

Like every one else said Boston is the most European city


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## isaidso (Mar 21, 2007)

New York


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## SO143 (Feb 11, 2011)

isaidso said:


> New York


I also voted for New York :yes:


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## apinamies (Sep 1, 2010)

^^
I don't understand. New York is essence of USA. Skyscrapers, people from different backgrounds, greediness etc.


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## poshbakerloo (Jan 16, 2007)

I always think NYC has a European feel about it. As in, people walk everywhere, wide pavements, nice parks, and café's etc


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## sebvill (Apr 13, 2005)

Maybe thats what makes Manhattan the most European, people WALK. This is because most of them use public transportation. In most of the other big American cities the use of private cars is more widespread. Specially in LA.


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## Bricken Ridge (Feb 16, 2008)

apinamies said:


> ^^
> I don't understand. New York is essence of USA. Skyscrapers, people from different backgrounds, greediness etc.



The feel of the city anywhere below 86th Street ( except Lower Eastside and Chinatown) is IMO, very European, hands down. It's that cosmopolitan feel that would remind you of London and Paris. Boston- it's like any big American city- a driving city.


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## Munwon (Dec 9, 2010)

A better question would be which American city is the least American


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## brianmoon85 (Oct 14, 2006)

martinmartiini said:


> .. ok ...
> 
> Seattle and Minneapolis look most appealing out of US cities, at least for me .. or ..
> some small town in USA - Bloomington,Indiana; Frederick,Maryland
> ...


funny you mentioned San Jose, Costa Rica cause my parents are retired there and I used to live there from 1991-1997 lol


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## pesto (Jun 29, 2009)

brianmoon85 said:


> funny you mentioned San Jose, Costa Rica cause my parents are retired there and I used to live there from 1991-1997 lol


Extremely odd.  I have family in Costa Rica and they almost universally hate San Jose: old, decrepit, broken streets and sidewalks, poor sanitation, broken down buses, inefficiency. Ditto for tourists: you take a look at the Teatro Nacional and get the hell out to the beaches.

Even if you retire to SJ, you're likely to live in one of the residential suburbs. They offer much better security and are legitimately a good place for retirees. Nearly perfect weather.

If you mean that SJ is better than Managua, Guatemala, etc., I will give you that.


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## Bricken Ridge (Feb 16, 2008)

pesto said:


> Extremely odd. I have family in Costa Rica and they almost universally hate San Jose: old, decrepit, broken streets and sidewalks, poor sanitation, broken down buses, inefficiency. Ditto for tourists: you take a look at the Teatro Nacional and get the hell out to the beaches.
> 
> Even if you retire to SJ, you're likely to live in one of the residential suburbs. They offer much better security and are legitimately a good place for retirees. Nearly perfect weather.
> 
> If you mean that SJ is better than Managua, Guatemala, etc., I will give you that.



i kind of agree. tough sell to see san jose, cr in the same ranks with the other cities listed. except for escazu area outside of the city where i stayed for 2 weeks, most of the downtown area looks rundown. we drove there at night to check out a club and decided not to step out of the car because it appeared unsafe.


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## masterchivas (Feb 22, 2008)

American European cities ...

Montreal, Canada
Mexico City, Mexico
Santiago, Chile
Buenos Aires, Argentina


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

carfentanyl said:


> Is it about the way the city looks, or the way the people live their everyday lives? That's pretty essential.
> 
> A huge difference between US and European cities, especially now summer's here again, are terraces. While throughout Europe a lot of bars and restaurants have terraces outside I seldom see them in the USA. Sometimes squares are completely filled with them and people just enjoy themselves drinking and eating. It's a big cultural difference so I would say the US city that has the biggest terrace culture is most European.
> 
> This is what I mean, terraces in my country:


well, if that is the case Sweden & Finland is more North America than Europe, because we have few terraces. 

Anyhow, the most european US city is probably Boston when looking at the architecture and planning of the city. It looks very english-like.

But New York is the most european if you compare the type of people living in the city. NY has more variety and influx of culture and cuisine from Europe, probably more italian restaurants here than in Boston.

Let's see what is the most US city in Europe?, probably Frankfurt am Main, Germany looks like Manhattan...still it doesn't make sense because everybody there speak german and eat bratwurst so it's in no sense the US anyway.



Shawn said:


> People, you realize how silly this all sounds? It's like asking "Which Californian city is the most New Jersey-esque"? Other than a degree of urbanity basically unseen in North America (which, by the way, is by no means found in Europe alone), Norwegian cities and Spanish cities are atmospherically and culturally about as similar as Detroit is to Santiago, Chile. Greek cities are dramatically different from British cities, in terms of culture, atmosphere and physical layout; so are Polish and French cities.
> 
> What are you defining "European" as?


european is often considered Brittain, France, Benelux, Germany, Spain and Italy. The main european countries. But people tend to forget other countries.

The question should be which is the most brittishlike US-city ?


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## Golden Age (Dec 26, 2006)

*The Big Dig made Boston more European*



Bricken Ridge said:


> The feel of the city anywhere below 86th Street ( except Lower Eastside and Chinatown) is IMO, very European, hands down. It's that cosmopolitan feel that would remind you of London and Paris. Boston- it's like any big American city- a driving city.


Boston may have been very car-centric, but following the Big Dig, which moved 3.5 miles of car traffic underground and ended in 2007, this has changed profoundly. In fact, it has made Boston much more walkable and even more European than before. This finally connected the old Italian neighborhood "North End" (Hanover St) with Boston Common, Beacon Hill and the the Back Bay (gorgeous Newbury St). The so-called "Freedom Trail" is intended to make tourists walk 2.5 miles through town all the way to historical Charlestown in the north (Bunker Hill and USS Constitution). 

Boston has a lot of historical architecture, old neighborhoods and not nearly as many modern glass & steel high rises as most other American cities (it shares this trait with San Francisco). Then you have to factor in that Boston (incl Cambridge) is America's biggest college town with with more than 250,000 students, which has a huge influence on the city. Also, running along the Charles River beats running through Central Park any day.


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## diablo234 (Aug 18, 2008)

Golden Age said:


> *Boston may have been very car-centric*, but following the Big Dig, which moved 3.5 miles of car traffic underground and ended in 2007, this has changed profoundly.


Boston was never a car-centric city to begin with. :nuts:

I suspect that the person who made that original comment has never stepped foot inside the city. :|


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## Taller Better (Aug 27, 2005)

People have been dredging up a lot of old threads lately that are basically city vs city.


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