# SWEDEN | Railways



## hkskyline (Sep 13, 2002)

*Biogas Passenger Train Unveiled in Sweden*

*Biogas-powered Passenger Train Unveiled In Sweden *
20 June 2005

STOCKHOLM (AP)--A passenger train running solely on biogas, billed as the world's first, was unveiled in Sweden on Monday, in what officials called a major step toward making public transport more environmentally friendly.

The train, which is fitted with two biogas bus engines, was started up and rolled for a few meters on the tracks at the train station in Linkoping in south-central Sweden, officials said.

It can carry up to 54 passengers and is expected to start running on an 80-kilometer stretch between Linkoping and Vastervik on the country's east coast starting in August or September.

Biogas is produced by decomposing organic material in an oxygen-free environment, and emits just a small fraction of the carbon dioxide released by diesel engines.

The train can run for about 600 kilometers on a full tank and has a top speed of 130 kph.

Germany has experimented with using natural gas to power trains, but Carl Lilliehook, CEO of Svensk Biogas, the company that remodeled and owns the train, said he believed this was the world's first passenger train to run solely on biogas. Alec Walker-Love, spokesman for the Brussels, Belgium-based International Association of Public Transport, also said it was likely a world first.

"If all diesel trains in Sweden would be rebuilt to use biogas, this would be a valuable contribution to decreasing carbon dioxide emissions and oil dependence," said Bjorn Sunden, a spokesman for EuroMaint, which maintains the train. "In Europe, there is even a bigger potential if the trains are run on biogas because diesel engines are much more common there."

About 97% of Swedish train traffic runs on electricity, through power lines that run over the tracks. The other 3% run on diesel.


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## TRZ (Sep 18, 2004)

That could have a very interesting application on the streets. I don't see it as very good for dedicated rail lines but better used in low capacity LRT networks. In west-coast Sweden, Goteborg's Vasttraffik tram network are an example of a system where I would call the application of this technology ideal because of the # of passengers it can carry and the top speed, both of which are not impressive. Even for that low-capacity system though, it would need to be capable of handling a weight much higher than 54 people, why is it so weak? Or were they talking about how many seats were in the train?


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## London Underground (Sep 2, 2009)

Anybody here gone on the Swedish rail network?

If so, what did you think of it?

Just curious becouse i love it. Although i am from here so...


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## Chilenofuturista (May 24, 2005)

I guess it's ok. It's very far from being state of the art like the ones in Germany, France and Spain. It'ok, fairly modern trains, quite comfortable but almost always delayed. Specially on the stretch between Malmö and Stockholm. 
I'm fairly pleased with SJ, there's not much they can do about it since they don't get very much money from the authorities. I'd rather see that they gave more money to SJ instead of to SAS. SAS goes all the time with losses and gets heavily subsidised. SJ gets almost nothing in comparisson. 
I guess I like SJ and I use their services (got the membership card!).


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## London Underground (Sep 2, 2009)

Well have you heard that they are about to loe all there state funding?
Unless it already happened. The states say that they want to let private owners take over the rail traffic. ITS CRAZZY!! 
Atleast SJ is making some money compared to as you mentioned SAS.

Wait, are you in Sweden?


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## Chilenofuturista (May 24, 2005)

London Underground said:


> Well have you heard that they are about to loe all there state funding?
> Unless it already happened. The states say that they want to let private owners take over the rail traffic. ITS CRAZZY!!
> Atleast SJ is making some money compared to as you mentioned SAS.
> 
> Wait, areyou in Sweden?


That's crazy! But it's already happened! 

http://www.veolia.se/tmpl/XStartPage.aspx?id=26702&epslanguage=ML

They should definitely send more money to SJ, instead of to SAS. Let the norwegians take care of SAS or just privatise it. I could care less, SAS' service is not what it used to be and we should think more of the environment. 

Yes, I live in Sweden. Don't get deceived by my nickname.


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## Chilenofuturista (May 24, 2005)

SJ's "flagship", in this case more of a "flagtrain". Heh. 

The X2000
copyright of Marcus Tellerup.


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## London Underground (Sep 2, 2009)

Yeah. I totaly agree. Plus part of SAS is already Norweigan. SAS Brathens. So why not.

Edit: Beutiful train. Used to be! Ha!


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## Wover (Feb 23, 2009)

I was quite impressed by SJ. I've used their services a few times on the following stretches:

- Stockholm - Västeräs
- Stockholm - Uppsala
- Stockholm - Nyköping
- (Stockholm -) Uppsala - Umea (nattag)

I was always very pleased by the comfort and interior of these trains. Furthermore, they're quite cheap (if you choose the right ones )? Compared to Finland anyway.


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## London Underground (Sep 2, 2009)

Well the service i like the best is the Uppsala-pendel. 
Every time i use them they are on time! Allmost. I have been late once. But still. One time, no time right?


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## Edvin (Apr 10, 2009)

I love riding the X2000 between Gothenburg and Stockholm! It is a really smooth, fast, quite comfortable ride of a little more then 3 h. Talking pros and cons, the great con is that it can be really pricey, but if you buy the tickets either a couple of months in advance or just before departure it can be a quite affordable affair. Btw, beautiful picture Chilenofuturista .


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

I can live with the privatization of railtravel. The infrastructure must however remain owned and run by the government (or else real competition among operators doesn't work). 

SJ is ok I guess. Expensive as hell unless booking months in advance and trains are somewhat old. IMO we need to invest a lot more in rail (SAS can go under for all I care, all we need to fund is a handful of smallish air-routes to the far north), both HSR and upgradeing/expanding current lines.

Expensive? yep, I went to Västerås with my gf a couple months back and the train fare was more the double the bus fare. So bus it was... eventhough we both prefer trains.


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## goldbough (Jun 19, 2007)

I rode trains there for about a solid week. I thought it was an average system. It was nice to pick up a full timetable of all trains from the main station. I rode on various companies (Veolia, Tågkompaniet, MerResor, SJ). The commuter lines around Stockholm were very nice.

The trains were mostly on time, but sometimes very late because another one was late before it. When I was leaving Stockholm towards Norrkoping, there was a problem with the electricity that delayed every train around there for about an hour and a half. Other than that, it was all right.

The best thing about being in Sweden was that everyone spoke English really well! When I got off at Äng, the conductor suddenly busted out in perfect American-style English, "Are you sure you're getting off here?" I answered yes and the train left. Anyway, I had a good experience there.


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## Uppsala (Feb 26, 2010)

In February and begin if Mars this year it was a lot of problems for the trains to be on time. May of the trains are not so modern anymore too. X2000 are 20 years old now. And we have many trains who are much older than X2000.


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## Maxx☢Power (Nov 16, 2005)

I took the train in Sweden a couple of times last summer and found the experience average. The first was from Stockholm to the middle of nowhere on an old, slow train with no air conditioning. This being the middle of summer I'm sure the temperature inside the train reached 50 at some point. The second was on an X2000 back to Stockholm which failed and sat in the middle of nowhere for about half an hour. Other than that though, it was a pretty comfortable ride. Nothing like a real HST, but still much better than the first part of my journey. I wasn't in a hurry, so it didn't really annoy me all that much, but I can imagine the frustration if you're someone who commutes weekly between, say, Stockholm and Malmö.

I also took the airport train from Arlanda, which I think is basically the same train as the X2000. Like most dedicated airport trains, this was on time and pretty comfortable. I don't think this train is operated by SJ.

I think most state-operated rail companies could do with privatisation and competition. The state should stick to maintaining and improving the infrastructure and only subsidise routes that nobody wants because they're not profitable. Like SAS, SJ and other state-operated rail operators have no incentive to provide better service at a lower cost; they don't have to fight for their survival and it makes them naive, arrogant and wasteful.


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## Uppsala (Feb 26, 2010)

Maxx☢Power;53368833 said:


> I took the train in Sweden a couple of times last summer and found the experience average. The first was from Stockholm to the middle of nowhere on an old, slow train with no air conditioning. This being the middle of summer I'm sure the temperature inside the train reached 50 at some point. The second was on an X2000 back to Stockholm which failed and sat in the middle of nowhere for about half an hour. Other than that though, it was a pretty comfortable ride. Nothing like a real HST, but still much better than the first part of my journey. I wasn't in a hurry, so it didn't really annoy me all that much, but I can imagine the frustration if you're someone who commutes weekly between, say, Stockholm and Malmö.
> 
> I also took the airport train from Arlanda, which I think is basically the same train as the X2000. Like most dedicated airport trains, this was on time and pretty comfortable. I don't think this train is operated by SJ.
> 
> I think most state-operated rail companies could do with privatisation and competition. The state should stick to maintaining and improving the infrastructure and only subsidise routes that nobody wants because they're not profitable. Like SAS, SJ and other state-operated rail operators have no incentive to provide better service at a lower cost; they don't have to fight for their survival and it makes them naive, arrogant and wasteful.


You are right! A lot of the trains have no air conditioning. A lot of the trains called InterCity looks old now. They are now rebuilding old coaches for InterCity but they still don’t have air conditioning after they are modernized. And that’s not good now. Also here in Sweden sometimes the summers can be very hot. Most of the coaches for InterCity who don’t have air conditioning are not that old like they looks like. Most of them are built in 1979-1990. So they are in the same generations like the German InterCity type Bpmz 291 but older constructions and they are even built later than the Mark 3 in the UK. German Bpmz and British Mark 3 have air conditioning but not the Swedish InterCity coaches. 

The local trains from Stockholm to Arlanda is not SJ-trains. That’s Arlanda Express and that’s one special company who only have trains between Stockholm and Arlanda. From Uppsala to Arlanda there is some local trains with personal from SJ but the trains are from Upplands Lokaltrafik (UL), they are a local company for trains and buses in the region around Uppsala. But there is also a lot of SJ-trains in Arlanda. Most of the X2000 and InterCity between Stockholm and Uppsala are going through Arlanda Airport.


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## Nightsky (Sep 16, 2002)

There have been alot of delayed and cancelled trains this winter. There are many problems about the Swedish trains, when there is snow. Many passengers have been stranded for hours without getting any help.

Anyway, here are some Swedish trains:









Old RC train (pre late 80s).









X2000 fast speed trains.









The current Rc train (since late 80s).

Source: http://www.lokman.se/Tagbilder/Svenska_tag/Svenska_persontag.htm


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## Nightsky (Sep 16, 2002)

The new Pågatåg. Operates in Skåne.









Arlanda Express Airport train.









Öresundståg, between Malmö and Copenhagen.









Green Cargo freight train.


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## Nightsky (Sep 16, 2002)

* TRAIN CRASH MALMÖ C:

Here are some pictures I took at the X2000 train crash at Malmö Central on New Years Day. Noone was hurt. The cause is unknown. The crash was taking place in the old central hall, above the city tunnel.*









X2000 is Sweden’s fast speed trains.


















It could have been a disaster if passengers were aboard! 









But only the driver was on the train, he was about to move the train when something went wrong.









Media reporting from the accident.



























The new ultramodern parking lot outside Malmö C.


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## Jay (Oct 7, 2004)

Holy crap, how fast was this train traveling when it rammed the barrier? 

Usually the barriers are not strong enough to stop a fast moving train, that's happened before here in spain and the train went straight through 2 feet of concrete splitting it apart. Was the driver drunk?


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## Alseimik (Aug 30, 2010)

^^ as far as i knows, there's still no report on what happened. Drunk drivers doesn't appears to be a problem in Sweden and neither in Denmark and rest of the north, as far as i knows!

Maybe some system malfunction? electronics and computers would be my guess, since the train should be able to stop even if a wagons brakes is faulty, so there must be something wrong with the whole train.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

What are long term plans for Swedish Railways?


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

I might aswell contribute this here. 

*Alstom SL X60*,exiting Stockholm's Central Train Station.


Tin_Can said:


>


I've got few photos of X2000 also,but I guess it's not point of posting them here as X2000 photos are already posted here.

EDIT: few more.
*Alstom SL X60* (on the left) passing *Alstom SJ X40* on a bridge near Stockholm's old town.









*Alstom SJ X40* It has pretty cool 'angry' look


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## Olov (Aug 26, 2010)

LtBk said:


> What are long term plans for Swedish Railways?


Trafikverket's plan for 2010-2021


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## BWG95 (Jul 20, 2010)

Uppsala said:


> In February and begin if Mars this year it was a lot of problems for the trains to be on time. May of the trains are not so modern anymore too. X2000 are 20 years old now. And we have many trains who are much older than X2000.


SJ will actually this summer replace 20 of the X2000 trains on "less important" stretches (Stockholm - Dalarna, Stockholm - Värmland) with brand new trains called Regina X55. They are in the same speed and comfort class as the X2000 trains, and the cars of the replaced trains will be added to the X2000 trains on the main stretches, between Stockholm - Malmö and Stockholm - Gothenburg, giving a higher capacity between our biggest cities.


Picture of the X55:











Source: http://www.svd.se/resor/nyheter/sa-blir-sjs-nya-snabbtag_1278687.svd


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## Tin_Can (Jun 17, 2009)

Aren't Bombardier Reginas already in service in Sweden? I recall seeing those. Or are new X55's different from existing models?


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

^^ The normal Reginas are more of a regional train, this one however shares the looks and interior of the X2000. Making them more comfortable and allow them to run on Inter-city lines.


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## BIL (Aug 2, 2008)

Olov said:


> Trafikverket's plan for 2010-2021


There are plans for a new high speed network Gothenburg-Jönköping-Stockholm and possibly Jönköping-somewhere south. These has now been postponed until further notice since the minister of finance does not believe in the benefit.

This document contains the plans for 2010-2020:
http://www.regeringen.se/sb/d/11181/a/143094

The biggest are:
Hallandsås tunnel
4 tracks Malmö-Lund
New and upgraded railway Göteborg-Trollhättan
Railway tunnel under Gothenburg
Railway tunnel under Varberg
Double track, parts of Mjölby-Hallsberg
Railway tunnel under Stockholm for local trains (the biggest)
4 tracks around Sundbyberg and Järfälla
Tramway Alvik-Sundbyberg-Solna
Upgraded railway Sundsvall-Kramfors
New and upgraded railway Boden-Haparanda
Double track, parts of Skutskär(Gävle)-Sundsvall


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

Drivers view of west coast main line


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## BWG95 (Jul 20, 2010)

^^ Haha those videos look like something that could be on the show "På Spåret"


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

gincan said:


> Drivers view of west coast main line


Very nice!  I have forgotten that trains ride on the left tracks in some routes and i was a bit shocked at first.


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## Gadiri (Oct 30, 2009)

Tin_Can said:


> *Alstom SJ X40* It has pretty cool 'angry' look



Is it a Coradia ?


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## thtc (Jan 5, 2007)

Yes it is an Alstom product and it belongs to the Coradia-family.


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## BWG95 (Jul 20, 2010)

dj4life said:


> Very nice!  I have forgotten that trains ride on the left tracks in some routes and i was a bit shocked at first.


Actually, trains in Sweden always have left-hand traffic, aside from some rare examples...


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## Never give up (Apr 8, 2009)

BWG95 said:


> Actually, trains in Sweden always have left-hand traffic, aside from some rare examples...


Well a little more than in "rare cases"
South of this site, (Webcam photo) about 5 km north of Malmö C, the Swedish railway system becomes a right hand rail system for the southernmost tip of the country (Skåne). This is in order to join up with the Øresund Link to Denmark where right hand running is normal. Freight trains also benefit from having the changeover placed here, as they can avoid crossing the main line on the level when acessing the freight yards.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

BIL said:


> Hallandsås tunnel


Quite an infamous tunnel...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallandsås_Tunnel

The new alignment containing this tunnel can be seen starting from minute 1:40 in the second video.


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## Gadiri (Oct 30, 2009)

thtc said:


> Yes it is an Alstom product and it belongs to the Coradia-family.


I know Coradia and X'Trapolis for UK market. Also Coradia Nordic for cold countries. But what is different new on a Coradia Lirex 60 ? 

*Alstom Coradia X60*








> Manufacturer: Alstom Transport
> Typ: Coradia Lirex X60
> Location: Upplands-Bro/Kungsängen in Sweden
> 2009-08-25 / 13:00


*Alstom Coradia*







*Alstom X'Trapolis *


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

BWG95 said:


> Actually, trains in Sweden always have left-hand traffic, aside from some rare examples...


Ops, i didn't know that. Thank you for information. kay:


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## Olov (Aug 26, 2010)

> *Trafikverket ska utreda ökad kapacitet i järnvägssystemet*
> 
> I dag fick Trafikverket ett regeringsuppdrag att utreda behovet av ökad kapacitet i det svenska järnvägssystemet, och lämna förslag till effektiviserings- och kapacitetshöjande åtgärder.
> 
> ...





> *Transport Administration will investigate the increased capacity of the rail system.*
> 
> Today the Transport Administration received a government assignment investigating the need for increased capacity in the Swedish rail system and propose increased efficiency and capacity enhancement.
> 
> ...


http://www.trafikverket.se/Aktuellt...ska-utreda-okad-kapacitet-i-jarnvagssystemet/

The report on the current status of the Swedish railway network.
http://www.trafikverket.se/PageFiles/47862/situationen_i_det_svenska_jarnvagsnatet.pdf


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## marshol (Aug 10, 2007)

Sverige nekter oss lyntog til Europa

hno:


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Olov said:


> Sweden are undergoing an exceptional increase in passenger traffic but the investment and reinvestment in new rail projects and maintenance hasn't been able to follow up in the same rate. Many routes in Sweden has reached maximum level of numbers of trains which makes the system extremely vulnerable of delays and cancelled trains due to tear power cables, signal malfunction etc.


Increase in passenger traffic on the triangle Stockholm-Göteborg-Malmö, but many railway-routes struggle with the decreasing profit, lack of demand, few passengers and stiff competition from express-buses.

This is one example: Stångådalsbanan. A branch line in a sparsely populated region.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

^This pattern isn't that uncommon. Capacity needs to be upped on the mainlines, especially between the biggest cities, as well as on the commuter lines around the biggest cities. The 4 trains a day lines where the trains stop everywhere... not that hot nowadays (not since the 50s, really). Keep those smaller lines usable, yes, but invest in the main lines/HSR and commuter lines. This will boost profitability and increase usage. More bang for our subsidizing tax crown.

the SJ3000 train isn't HSR, eventhough that's what SJ are hinting at and trying to imply. It's just a long-distance version of the Regina trains running on our rails for several years. There IS an HSR version of the Regina, but that one only runs in China. The SJ3000 will be good though, the X2000 trains need to start getting retired very soon due too heavy use and lack of maintenance.


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## BYSB (Nov 9, 2011)

Hi folks.

I shall be travelling to Sweden next week and I am trying to find out if there are still any locomotive hauled passenger trains in service, and if so which routes they run over.

I shall be staying in Stockholm and will have all day on Saturday free.

Any information would be very gratefully received.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

BYSB said:


> Hi folks.
> 
> I shall be travelling to Sweden next week and I am trying to find out if there are still any locomotive hauled passenger trains in service, and if so which routes they run over.
> 
> ...


Few locomotive hauled passenger trains left, most regional trains consists of Regina multiple unit passenger trains.

If you stay in Stockholm, go to the East station and take a ride on the narrow gauge trains to the northeastern suburbs. Those trains are locomotive hauled.


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## Olov (Aug 26, 2010)

These are the lines SJ are running with rc6-locomotives and are called by SJ, InterCity








http://www.sj.se/content/1/c6/15/82/34/SJ-kartor_Sverige_IC_T11_110127_webb.pdf
http://www.sj.se/start/startpage/index.form?l=en
Veolia are also running locomotives like the Siemens Taurus engine between Stockholm-Malmö
They are however only running in 160km/h
http://www.veolia-transport.se/tmpl/XStartPage____42108.aspx?epslanguage=EN


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## kalle_sg (Apr 27, 2008)

Except for InterCity trains (from Stockholm towards Malmö/Lund, Gothenburg, Karlstad, Borlänge/Falun/Mora, Åre) there are regional trains Stockholm - Uppsala. They run quite often and are locomotive hauled. Plus, of course, the night trains.


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## Ingenioren (Jan 18, 2008)

... and to Oslo


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

NordikNerd said:


> If you stay in Stockholm, go to the East station and take a ride on the narrow gauge trains to the northeastern suburbs. Those trains are locomotive hauled.


No, they're not. They're EMUs from the 80s.

The Stockholm-Uppsala line is your easiest and best bet. Usually has two locomotives, one in each end (for quicker turn-around time). Also, will give you time to see Uppsala's lovelly old city core.


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## BYSB (Nov 9, 2011)

Thank you for all the answers so far.

Would I be able to travel on loco-hauled services if I were to travel Stockholm to Malmo to Goteburg to Stockholm ??


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Yes, you would. As long as you go by regular inter city instead of by the faster X2000 service.


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## BYSB (Nov 9, 2011)

Thank you very much


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## BYSB (Nov 9, 2011)

I have now worked out a potential itinery which is either :

Stockholm/Malmo/Gotenborg/Stockholm 

OR 

Stockholm/Gotenborg/Malmo/Stockholm - This one appears to be all Regional services.

Is anyone able to say if the trains between Malmo and Gotenborg are locomotive operated please ?

Alternatively would there be a better travel itinery to follow ?

Thank you for your help.


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## Olov (Aug 26, 2010)

It's not possibble to make the Sthlm-Göteborg/Malmö-Sthlm by loco only trains in one day on saturday.

The SJ Inter City between Göteborg and Malmö seem to be like the Öresundstågen, Bombardiers X31K which are EMU's...


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## Tyr (Jul 21, 2009)

I remember when I used to live in Uppsala there was this railway line that went off to the eastern end of the city, there was even some little bus stand like station not far from the big cup heater thingy.
Looking on google earth I can trace this line quite a way eastwards into the countryside though it isn't marked as a railway line and I can't seem to find any mention of it on wikipedia or anything either.
Does anyone have any idea what this line is?


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## Uppsala (Feb 26, 2010)

Tyr said:


> I remember when I used to live in Uppsala there was this railway line that went off to the eastern end of the city, there was even some little bus stand like station not far from the big cup heater thingy.
> Looking on google earth I can trace this line quite a way eastwards into the countryside though it isn't marked as a railway line and I can't seem to find any mention of it on wikipedia or anything either.
> Does anyone have any idea what this line is?


Maybe you are thinking about this lovely little railway?










It's a museum narrow gauge railway.

Look at this link:

http://www.lennakatten.se/

And welcome to one of the most beautiful and lovely little railways in Sweden.


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

Malmö


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

Malmö


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

Malmö


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

Malmö


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## Falubaz (Nov 20, 2004)

Malmö


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Another HSR line gets green light. The planning process continues.

*Klart om medfinansiering av ny järnväg Göteborg-Borås*

:cheers:


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

dj4life said:


> Green light for a corridor of Ostlänken bypassing the second largest airport of Stockholm Skavsta. The government should approve this decission by the end of this year.
> 
> *Klartecken för Ostlänken via Skavsta*


Bypassing? Don't you mean "going via" Skavsta? That airport is getting a station on the line


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

dj4life said:


> Another HSR line gets green light. The planning process continues.
> 
> *Klart om medfinansiering av ny järnväg Göteborg-Borås*
> 
> :cheers:


Great news, even if it is only funding for the planning that's been approved and not ALL the funding. 

So now we've got planning moving forward with the Göteborg-Borås and Linköping-Stockholm bits. I can't imagine the missing middle section Borås-Jönköping-Linköping not being at least partially funded by the time actual construction starts on the first sections.


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

Grotlaufen said:


> Certainly a railway line can become a barrier, just like any river with lack of connections between both sides or a broad, congested street. Hence bridges, tunnels, overpasses, underpasses or whatever you have present to overcome this. What's your point?
> 
> If we followed your argument, the next 200 years of railway development would be spent on digging urban railways into the ground (not to mention the maintaince costs for these newly buried-down stretches since there's now four sides of the track to take care of, or whynot the lack of investment in the rural areas between the cities... )


A river can be a barrier as well, developments on one side of a river might not benefit much from developments on the other. On the other hand, unless the river is an open sewer, proximity to a river is likely to be highlighted in real estate ads, not so proximity to a railway line. The more people there are by a railway line, and the greater the economic effect, the greater the negatives of a line will be. It can be so great that together with the real estate value of the railway line, it makes more economic sense to remove it than keep it, particularly if the positive value is slight. 

The alternatives to removing the line may be to put it in a tunnel and/or add value to it (i.e. upgrading it to perform services the society needs and is willing to pay for).


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

The strike is finally over. The first train from Linköping arrived in Åtvidaberg at 16:37 today.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-kiruna-narvik-iron-ore-line.html?channel=542
> 
> *Study recommends upgrading Kiruna - Narvik iron-ore line*
> Wednesday, June 25, 2014
> ...


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

I say Go. Upgrade the line. And make sure it's built to the largest standardized loading gauge in regular use in Europe.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

Swede said:


> I say Go. Upgrade the line. And make sure it's built to the largest standardized loading gauge in regular use in Europe.


I thought all Scandinavian lines already are built to the largest gauge, like those of Germany.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

TedStriker said:


> I thought all Scandinavian lines already are built to the largest gauge, like those of Germany.


Not this line! 
This is an old line with a few old tunnels, so the loading guage is "only" 3.4 by 4.3 (unlike modern lines which are at 3.6 by 4.83).


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Swede said:


> Not this line!
> This is an old line with a few old tunnels, so the loading guage is "only" 3.4 by 4.3 (unlike modern lines which are at 3.6 by 4.83).


So upping it to the new standard would be good.

Compared to the UK I guess even this line has a large loading gauge though.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

Swede said:


> Compared to the UK I guess even this line has a large loading gauge though.


Yes, British lines are so restrictive they look as they were built in the early-to-mid 19th century.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

^They look that way because they were built back then. Which is impressive in its own way. It's not like new built lines in the UK are using those mid-1880s loading gauges, and lines getting renoveated are having crossing bridgespans widened and raised up where possible afaik. 

In Sweden we got a later start and had more space including far fewer places where there were so many people living near the lines or so much traffic on the lines that we couldn't have level crossings back then. Result: few bridges/tunnels made to 1800s specs.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

Swede said:


> ^They look that way because they were built back then.


I know Swede, I was being sarcastic about little Britain.

Sorry.

It's just that I envy the railways of Europe that have no problem in operating intermodal trains that carry semi-trailers...


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

ah, I usually catch on to that but didn't now 

yeah, I wonder what the railways would be like in the UK if all the lines had the modern Swedish loading gauge. Imagine if all lines were capable of handling double-decker trains! 
The Swedish double-deckers look so over the top IMO. topping out a 6 cars long (2 3-car-units coupled together), why not just run longer signle level trains? it's not like we don't have space on the tracks for longer trains.


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## TedStriker (May 18, 2009)

^^

Britain's railway system would be more productive in two ways with a Teutonic/Viking-inspired loading gauge. 

First of all, yes, double-deck passenger trains would be feasible along certain corridors, even if some people don't like the potentially longer dwell times that such trains impose. 

And secondly, certain corridors would see the arrival of intermodal trains carrying semi-trailers, a most obvious corridor being that between the Channel Tunnel, London, the Midlands, the North West and Scotland. 

But it would cost a fortune to rebuild all of those bridges and tunnels, and doing so would cause a massive amount of disruption. 

So it will never happen, but nowhere is perfect I guess.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

*HSR in Sweden: Norrköping station*

Sweco presented some more detailed [some paintings were presented previously] visualisations of the planned new railway station (suitable to serve HSR trains) and central transportation terminal in Norrköping (HSR line Ostlänken [status: detailed planning stage]):










Source

(c) jarnvagsnyheter.se









(c) jarnvagsnyheter.se









(c) jarnvagsnyheter.se









More information: www.norrkoping.se, http://www.jarnvagsnyheter.se/2014/06/norrk-ping-f-rbereder-f-r-nytt-resecentrum


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

I remember seeing the render a while ago, but I never get tired of it. Norrköping is one of the overlooked of Swedish cities, yet it has to be one of my favourites. To replace the rather... Lacking station of today with something liek this would be really quite cool in my opinion. 

Look forward to the project getting underway.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

A freight train in northern part of the ocuntry:


tåg par Johan Ylitalo, sur Flickr


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

"MTR Express" uploaded a the first picture of the Swedish "Stadler Flirt" train the series of which are constructed in the "Stadler" factory in Switzerland:









Source


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

I like how they're going for a distinctive colorscheme. Maybe in time SJ will wise up to that having a neutral gray colorscheme isn't all that great even if their design team thinks so.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The Swedes have bigger trains tho, the SJ 3000 is 3450 mm at its widest point.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Svartmetall, Swede: Still, there are some lines suitable for higher speeds in the northern parts of the country. One regional train (Gröna tåget) was tested in 2009 and the maximum speed reached was 303 km/h. The goal was to test whether the current infrastructure would be suitable for the trains running on higher speeds. This, of course, doesn't mean that some of the lines shouldn't be upgraded.


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## Robi_damian (Jun 15, 2008)

AlexNL said:


> The Swedes have bigger trains tho, the SJ 3000 is 3450 mm at its widest point.


That is huge. How wide are trains to Denmark or the ones that used to travel South to Germany and even Hungary?


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

iirc there's wider loading gauge on one track into northern Germany from the ferry from Sweden so the 3200mm wide trains can get to Hamburg (or wherever it was). The once that go to Berling or Hungary aren't wider than the continental norm. Gaps at platforms in Sweden from that, but not crazy ones.

The Swedish loading gauge is significantly wider than pretty much everything on the continent (or what the Brits have to deal with from the 1850s). More info on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge#Sweden


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

eu01 said:


> Congrats! Apparently Sweden does value the rail traffic and is ready to invest pretty much in its network development despite the fact that the destination city is not really a crowded one (the population of 46.6 thousand and not much around). I'm pertaining to the fact that many other European cities of that size do not even have a regular passenger traffic. Okay, it's a question of wealth too, some countries simply do not have the money to invest, but it is also the question of attitude. If Poland or Romania reduce their passenger traffic, they can use as an excuse the lack of funds. But why for example Finland does not maintain any passenger traffic to Rauma (40 thousand inhabitants) despite the city is linked to the network by the electrified line allowing quite decent speeds?


The line isn't all about passenger traffic though. Far from it, it is a line motivated to a large extent by freight traffic. The current rail line goes far inland and means a significant de-tour taking loads of time. This new line is much more sensible and not primarily located to make it hard for the Russians to take it in an invasion. 
/I'm serious. Look at Swedish infrastructure along the east coast. It is part of the strategic planning that it should be far from the coast since the old enemy Russia is on the other side of the Baltic.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Not really railway development, but it does show some videos of not so often seen parts of the country for many. 

Firstly, arriving into Örebro Centralstation by train. 







And the same train we arrived in on leaving the station.







A full tour of Örebro Centralstation at night.







A local tågkompaniet train leaving Örebro Centralstation. 








Walking down the platform at Örebro Centralstation.








Views of the Swedish countryside between Stockholm and Örebro. 







Arriving into Västerås Centralstation







And departing again from Västerås Centralstation.







Hope you enjoy.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

*MTR Express: trains*

The backside of the Swedish Stadler Flirt pictured during a test ride in Switzerland:









Source


----------



## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

*MTR Express: trains*

One more picture of Electric Low-floor Multiple-unit FLIRT for MTR Express in Sweden by Stadler Rail:









Source


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

A nice map of the first branch of the future HSR line- Ostlänken:









Source

A planned HSR line southwards (Stambanan):









Source

Another HSR line will reach Gothenburg via Jönköping and Borås.


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## fireflyH2O (Apr 28, 2008)

The second map is exactly what it exist today


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

*MTR Express: trains*

MTR shared a few pictures of interior of the Swedish Stadler Flirt train a set of which will be delivered to Sweden this year:



















Source: MTR Express on Instagram


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ What's up with the Breitling clock?  BTW, are those photos from 1st class or economy class?


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

The MTR Express won't have classed seating. All seats are one and the same. However, you can upgrade other services & stuff (I'm not clear on what) for an extra cost compared to the basic ticket price.


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

There is a video report of these new trains on SvD, with some information on how it will work, and including some nice views on how they look: http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/tag-fran-schweiz-ger-sj-ny-konkurrens-pa-paradlinjen_4073755.svd


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Lovely trains, indeed.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

When these come out is when I will go and visit Gothenburg. I hope to take one. Anything that provides competition to SJ is a good thing in my opinion as SJ are hardly the best service I've used...


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

MTR Express will launch their service in spring (march?) next year.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Yep, March is the last press release I saw. Will be good to go when the weather improves though, so I'll wait until May or later. :lol:


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

The official MTR Express webpage was updated with a nice video presentation with the Swedish Stadler Flirt in action: http://www.mtrexpress.se.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

Swede said:


> The MTR Express won't have classed seating. All seats are one and the same. However, you can upgrade other services & stuff (I'm not clear on what) for an extra cost compared to the basic ticket price.


I was asking because the interior looks very classy kay: Very nice trains indeed!


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Yeah, this train is looking real nice 

It'll be interesting to see if people now see how much of the troubles on the railways aren't SJ:s fault, how MTR handles track issues and if SJ at all responds to a new rail company known for good service starts running the same lines.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

I don't think problems will be mitigated by a new company. However, I think that customer service might be markedly improved when problems occur. An example was when I was stranded in Örebro recently - SJ simply told me "stay overnight in Örebro and forget about getting home tonight". Other operators in other countries run coaches and help people out during service disruptions. Just forcing SJ to improve customer service would be a massive boon for Swedish rail I believe.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Well, SJ usualy react responsibly in many cases - offer journeys with buses or some other alternatives. However, this doesn't seem to be a regular practice.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

*MTR Express*

The first Stadler Flirt train was tested on the route Stockholm-Gothenburg!

*MTR redo ta upp kampen med SJ*


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

dj4life said:


> Well, SJ usualy react responsibly in many cases - offer journeys with buses or some other alternatives. However, this doesn't seem to be a regular practice.


No they don't. SJ don't normally do anything according to their representatives that I spoke to. They are only obliged to refund you if your delay is significant, but beyond that they do nothing. I really don't like SJ that much at all. Their monopoly has made them arrogant and I really hope MTR takes them to the cleaners.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

I know that in some situations they change trains with buses. However, once this happened on the more popular route.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Mmhm, I got told when our trains have had problems in the past (this isn't the first time) that the "Snabbtåg" gets priority, followed by international trains, long distance trains and finally the regional trains. Unfortunately, regional trains are bread-and-butter services and they fall at the bottom. The cost difference is negligible between the fast trains and regional though on the same route, so it seems odd that they have that kind of customer priority. 

Anyway, I guess we're digressing a bit. It wouldn't surprise me though if the popular routes get priority though as if the customers there aren't treated well then they'll just go back to their cars and SJ will lose whatever profit it makes.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Mmhm, I got told when our trains have had problems in the past (this isn't the first time) that the "Snabbtåg" gets priority, followed by international trains, long distance trains and finally the regional trains. Unfortunately, regional trains are bread-and-butter services and they fall at the bottom. The cost difference is negligible between the fast trains and regional though on the same route, so it seems odd that they have that kind of customer priority.


Train traffic is prioritized in nearly all countries. International and freight trains get priority over domestic trains as they are not only dependant on the national timetable but also on timetables in neighboring countries. Otherwise, even a slight delay may lead to a huge knock-on effect.

For example, if an ICE departs Amsterdam 10 minutes late this could mean that it would have to follow a local train until it reaches Utrecht, its delay increasing by 10 more minutes. From Utrecht to Arnhem it would follow other local and regional trains, its delay further increasing. Upon crossing the border, the delay could've easily gone up to 30 minutes, thereby missing the slot in Germany causing it to get stuck behind other trains as well. If trains weren't prioritized, a 10 minute delay on departure could lead to an hour delay on arrival.

DB Netze sells 'priority train paths': they are more expensive, but the train will be given priority during disruptions and delays. DB Fernverkehr is a big customer of these paths, as well as other long distance and international operators. 


> Anyway, I guess we're digressing a bit. It wouldn't surprise me though if the popular routes get priority though as if the customers there aren't treated well then they'll just go back to their cars and SJ will lose whatever profit it makes.


I think that having a world class operator such as MTR compete with SJ on a long distance route will be good for passengers. I'm curious to see how this will play out.

Speaking about competition, does anyone know how Blå Tåget is doing?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

AlexNL said:


> Train traffic is prioritized in nearly all countries. International and freight trains get priority over domestic trains as they are not only dependant on the national timetable but also on timetables in neighboring countries. Otherwise, even a slight delay may lead to a huge knock-on effect.


Prioritised with regards to track access yes, but when something goes wrong that doesn't mean that we, as users of the regional trains get stranded until the next day without compensation of any kind whilst those for long-distance trains or X2000 snabbtåg trains get better service whilst not necessarily paying more - that has nothing to do with trackage at all so I think you misread what I said. The train I was on, despite being called "SJ Regional" went all the way from Stockholm to Gothenburg and was actually more expensive than the SJ Intercity on the same route (but the intercity took longer than the regional on that day, go figure how the heck SJ "runs" its services).

Another note, unlike other countries, the same tracks here are used for all classes of services. There is no priority tracks for higher speed - we don't have a high speed line here at all.


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## ArtManDoo (Aug 5, 2008)

loefet said:


> There is a video report of these new trains on SvD, with some information on how it will work, and including some nice views on how they look: http://www.svd.se/naringsliv/tag-fran-schweiz-ger-sj-ny-konkurrens-pa-paradlinjen_4073755.svd


I have some experiance using flirt's in Estonia, Finland, Austria and Switzerland. I must say that the flirts are more like short distance trains for 30min ride or so. The noise level for Flirt is also higher, for example in Bombardier Talent or Alstom Coradia Lirex (SL X60) the ride is almost noiseless. In Flirt traction motors can be heared also the wheel noise can be heared. 

I didn't know that SJ customer service was so bad, I have thought that it's something similar to Finnish VR super level service. I hope also that MTR changes the customer service better and swedish rail users win in general.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Sweet! Some people shared videos of Sadler Flirt (MTR Express) train test run in Sweden:

Aspen, Jonsered






Stockholm


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## Goy (Sep 27, 2014)

*Can someone answer me if there are (or if it is under construction or planning) High Speep Rails between:

Malmo - Gotemburg - Oslo
Gotemburg - Stockohlm
Malmo - Stockohlm
Stockohlm - Upsalla


How speed can trains reach in current rail network? Sweden gouvernment is unwiling to build High Speed Rails? Do Sweden society think it is unnecessary or expensive?*


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Read the last few pages and you'll find most of your answers.

But no, there is no HSR in Sweden. Top speed is 200 (205) and that's on some of the tracks, not all. 
There are plans to build HSR between Stockholm and Göteborg as well as Stockholm and Malmö. The first part to be built will be the section that both lines have in common (Stockholm-Jönköping).

Most of us are in favour of it, but some are against it thinking it'll be better spent on highways or something.

I suggest reading the wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Sweden


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Here's a video about the Göteborg - Borås project, which will be part of the eventual Stockholm - Göteborg high speed railway:


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Tåg i Bergslagen decorated with a themed Falun2015 livery:









Source









Source

More information: *Specialdesignat tåg till skid-VM i Falun*


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## ditmars (Dec 17, 2014)

Beautiful wagons.


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

Went into Gothenburg today, and while I was there I popped into the station to see if I could get lucky to spot one of the new MTR X74 train today.

I was double lucky in fact:



















There were two of them 

These new trains are gorgeous, and they really cause a stir here in the land of boring grey and black SJ trains. I can't believe how many people snapped a quick picture as they went past. Can't wait to ride one of them in the future.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Seeing those shiny new trains standing there makes me a bit envious :drool:


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

News on Malmbanan in northernmost Sweden:

http://www.wspgroup.com/en/WSP-UK/W...echnology-for-heavy-haul-iron-ore-rail-line-/



> SP was commissioned to define the requirement specifications, predesign as well as draft the technical procurement documentation for a design and build contract for Malmbanan’s most northern section.
> [...]
> Malmbanan crosses the border between Norway and Sweden, and requires a high degree of coordination between each country’s national transport agency with respect to product choices, software version handling, commissioning and operation. Malmbanan will also be modernized and double-tracked in a parallel project.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

Swede said:


> News on Malmbanan in northernmost Sweden:


So when shall the whole Malmbanan have been doubletracked?


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

From what I can gather from Trafikverkets website that is not the plan. In fact, it won't be double tracked at all. Unless one includes meeting places. According to http://www.trafikverket.se/Privat/Projekt/Norrbotten/Malmbanan/Forlangning-av-motesstationer/ the ore trains are too long for many meeting points (double track sections of the single track line). So short ones are getting lengthened and the line is being prepared for ERTMS.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Global Rail News:



> http://www.globalrailnews.com/blog/2014/12/23/first-sj-2000-to-undergo-overhaul/
> 
> *First SJ 2000 to undergo overhaul*
> 23 DEC, 2014
> ...


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

Nice to see them getting some TLC.
But I hope that they keep the original seats, or if they were to change them not to get the same type of uncomfortable seats they have on the SJ3000 trains.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...swedish-maintenance-contracts.html?channel=00
> 
> *Alstom wins Swedish maintenance contracts*
> Thursday, December 25, 2014
> ...


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

The storm cancelled trains in Sweden today. Trains Linköping -Kalmar were replaced with busses.


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## Aletsch (Dec 24, 2011)

Do you know what is the reason that leads to this cancellations? I don't feel like the bus would be safer under an storm rather than a train.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Aletsch said:


> Do you know what is the reason that leads to this cancellations? I don't feel like the bus would be safer under an storm rather than a train.



Not safer but more flexible. If a fallen tree blocks the road, the bus can take an alternative route. If the fallen tree blocks the railway track the train is stuck.


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

Aletsch said:


> Do you know what is the reason that leads to this cancellations? I don't feel like the bus would be safer under an storm rather than a train.


Heh, reminded me of this (though it affected both a bus and a train, equal opportunity havoc): Buss blåste av vägen


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...swedish-maintenance-contract.html?channel=531
> 
> *Strukton wins Swedish maintenance contract*
> Thursday, January 08, 2015
> ...


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Maximum amount of trains departing about the same time at Linköping Railway station.*

(from the left) 

Track 1. SJ X2000 express to Malmö/Copenhagen dep. 14.00
Track 2. SJ X2000 express to Stockholm dep. 14.00
Track 3. SJ X40 regional to Sala dep. 14.08
Track 5. ÖT Y31 regional/local to Västervik dep. 14.11


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## steple (May 1, 2010)

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=514776
Erlen, Switzerland 
Georg Trüb, January 16, 2015
_Brand new five car "Flirt" trainset 74 003 from Stadler Rail for the swedish MTR Express on a test run, destined for express train service with up to 200 km/h between Stockholm and Gothenburg from summer 2015._


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Speaking of MTR, on their website they have published some information about the train, including a 360° walkthrough and some interior photos:




























:drool:


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Love the new (MTR Express) trains! Also, love that SJ started to react to changing conditions in the market and will upgrade their rolling stock. Thank you for sharing some new pictures, Alex. I reposted your comment into several threads in the N&B section of this forum. Hopefuly, you don't mind about that.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

SJ need to respond. Their trains are generally pretty poor and they charge the earth for their hopeless levels of service. At least MTR are forcing them to sharpen up. The thing that really needs improving, though, is the quality of the tracks across Sweden. The ride quality here is pretty abysmal at times, and that won't be fixed by nice shiny rolling stock.


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Why the MTR train is made up of two parts? both have jacobs bogies but one is 2 cars fixed together and second one is 3 cars.... Is there something heavy on the roof or what?


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## KingNick (Sep 23, 2010)

What a great looking train that one! :applause:


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## Qwert (Jun 25, 2006)

Svartmetall said:


> SJ need to respond. Their trains are generally pretty poor and they charge the earth for their hopeless levels of service. At least MTR are forcing them to sharpen up. The thing that really needs improving, though, is the quality of the tracks across Sweden. The ride quality here is pretty abysmal at times, and that won't be fixed by nice shiny rolling stock.


When I used SJ's HS service on Göteborg C - Stockholm C line I was stunned by absence of electric sockets on board. I don't know if this is the case for all X2 train sets or I just had bad luck. There was a free wifi but with data limit, which wasn't a problem, because without the sockets I couldn't use it much.  This category of trains in other countries usually offers also things like daily press, hot drinks or snacks, which are included in ticket price.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Maadeuurija said:


> Why the MTR train is made up of two parts? both have jacobs bogies but one is 2 cars fixed together and second one is 3 cars.... Is there something heavy on the roof or what?


Maybe it is just to have an additional powered bogie. No Flirt has motor bogies shared between two cars, so maybe the project doesn't allow them. In this case, the only way to have a third (or also a fourth) motorized bogie in a 5-car train is to build it as two separate sets, but with a gangway on one side of each instead of a cabin.

If it is like NSB's Flirts, its wheel arrangment is B22+B22B. The two parts are likely technically independent, although not allowed to travel alone.

Also some Stadler GTWs sets are built this way, with two independent halves permanently coupled.

Another advantage is to allow splitting easily the trains, for instance for maintenance. Flirts for PKP IC are likely to be made by two 4-car parts, not by a single 8-car set: http://www.stadlerrail.com/medien/2013/08/29/stadler-gewinnt-in-polen/

The longest single part Flirts built to date are 6-car.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Stadler published a brochure of the MTR FLIRT on their website, which also has a schematic drawing of the train. On this drawing, it can be seen that the 3rd and 4th carriage are indeed not connected by a Jacobs bogie as is the case with other carriages. Traction equipment is placed in the 1st, 3rd and 5th carriages of the train.:











I am a little bit surprised by the amount of toilets on board this train: I only see three. Compared to other long distance trains, this seems a bit scarce.



dj4life said:


> Love the new (MTR Express) trains! Also, love that SJ started to react to changing conditions in the market and will upgrade their rolling stock. Thank you for sharing some new pictures, Alex. I reposted your comment into several threads in the N&B section of this forum. Hopefuly, you don't mind about that.


No problem, I'm glad you liked my contribution.


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## bolg (Aug 21, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> SJ need to respond. Their trains are generally pretty poor and they charge the earth for their hopeless levels of service. At least MTR are forcing them to sharpen up. The thing that really needs improving, though, is the quality of the tracks across Sweden. The ride quality here is pretty abysmal at times, and that won't be fixed by nice shiny rolling stock.


I think alot of SJ's routes are being subsidised by a few profitable routes, even though they claim every routes should be profitable. Hopefully they'll cancel some of them. Of course it won't be a popular move, but it needs to be done if train travel seriously wants to compete with aviation, buses and cars.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

bolg said:


> I think alot of SJ's routes are being subsidised by a few profitable routes, even though they claim every routes should be profitable. Hopefully they'll cancel some of them. Of course it won't be a popular move, but it needs to be done if train travel seriously wants to compete with aviation, buses and cars.


Or they should be subsidised by local councils/the government to ensure that rail service is kept to these areas. Better that than axing services across the board. That would be a massive step backwards for Sweden.


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Coccodrillo said:


> Maybe it is just to have an additional powered bogie. No Flirt has motor bogies shared between two cars, so maybe the project doesn't allow them. In this case, the only way to have a third (or also a fourth) motorized bogie in a 5-car train is to build it as two separate sets, but with a gangway on one side of each instead of a cabin.
> 
> If it is like NSB's Flirts, its wheel arrangment is B22+B22B. The two parts are likely technically independent, although not allowed to travel alone.
> ...


:cheers: makes sense if you think about it... Probably has something to do with the max speed/acceleration of the unit.


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

Qwert said:


> When I used SJ's HS service on Göteborg C - Stockholm C line I was stunned by absence of electric sockets on board. I don't know if this is the case for all X2 train sets or I just had bad luck.


I'm pretty sure that there are at least one socket for each seat on the train. But their location is in such a way, that you might not notice them if you don't know they are there. 
They are located between the seat cushions at the knee area, you can't really see them, since from above they look like an extension of the flat area between the seats, but if you feel at the front then you will feel a pair of Schuko plugs.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Maadeuurija said:


> makes sense if you think about it... Probably has something to do with the max speed/acceleration of the unit.


Doesn't make sense to me. All 3 middle cars of the train are different now.
And why not a Jacobs bogie? There are plenty of trains with driven Jacobs bogies around, like Alstoms Coradia and AGV, BR423/425, SLT. The only reason I can come up with is to remain within axle load limits.


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

M-NL said:


> Doesn't make sense to me. All 3 middle cars of the train are different now.
> And why not a Jacobs bogie? There are plenty of trains with driven Jacobs bogies around, like Alstoms Coradia and AGV, BR423/425, SLT. The only reason I can come up with is to remain within axle load limits.


After some reading:
It's a Stadler thing...to get the Flirt up to 200kph within reasonable time they need a third powered bogie, the Norwegian ones also have the 3rd powered bogie and I would guess that the powered one is a bit bigger so it wouldn't fit as a Jacobs bogie...

from wikipedia about the Norwegian FLIRTs:


> However, in contrast to previous five-car FLIRTs they will have a third powered bogie giving them a maximum power output of 4,500 kW (6,000 hp) and a top speed of 200 km/h (120 mph).


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Stadler has built only regional and special (rack, ...) trains until now, the NSB Flirts (and Westbahn's Kiss) were their first trains faster than 160 km/h. That's maybe why they dont't have powered jackob bogies.

However, the "EC 250" trains ordered by SBB will have them. They will have 11 cars, that is 12 bogies, I suppose at least one third of them powered. More informations canc ertainly be found on Stadler's website.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

The NSB FLIRT also has a 3rd powered bogie in the middle of the train:










Source: Stadler's NSB FLIRT Factsheet


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## Maadeuurija (Nov 14, 2010)

Coccodrillo said:


> However, the "EC 250" trains ordered by SBB will have them. They will have 11 cars, that is 12 bogies, I suppose at least one third of them powered. More information can certainly be found on Stadler's website.


The EC250 will have a high floor and 4? powered bogies... But the FLIRTs are still low floor and the powered bogies are indeed a bit bigger than the regular jacobs ones (wheel diameter is 7cm larger for our EMUs) so that might be a cause also ( low-floor wouldn't fit over the powered bogies...)


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Maadeuurija said:


> I would guess that the powered one is a bit bigger so it wouldn't fit as a Jacobs bogie...


For most FLIRTs that would be the case, because usually they use 860mm wheels for driven axles and 750mm wheels for unpowered axles (which explains the higher floors at the ends). These 200 km/h versions have 920mm wheels on all axles, so height isn't an issue.

4500 kW tends to being overpowered for such a short train (an 8-car ICE2 has 4800kW). However under low adhesion conditions extra driven axles are a huge advantage. I know it's cheaper to make, but this trend towards less driven axles is bad. Under low adhesion conditions these trains can barely accelerate. The Dutch VIRM is a good example of this.

You could argue that Stadler needs to learn how to make bogies, as Alstom, Bombardier, CAF en Siemens have no problems with making them.
I suppose it's a cost thing. Using the same powered bogie as used on the end cars and an unpowered bogie is probably cheaper to make.


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## Qwert (Jun 25, 2006)

loefet said:


> I'm pretty sure that there are at least one socket for each seat on the train. But their location is in such a way, that you might not notice them if you don't know they are there.
> They are located between the seat cushions at the knee area, you can't really see them, since from above they look like an extension of the flat area between the seats, but if you feel at the front then you will feel a pair of Schuko plugs.


Thank you, I will try to find them next time.


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

Incidentally, that is one of my least favourite locations for an electrical outlet. I have broken two chargers that way as it is easy, especially for the one at the window seat, to accidentally kick and break whatever is plugged in there.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...up-stockholm-–-oslo-services.html?channel=524
> 
> *SJ to step up Stockholm – Oslo services*
> Tuesday, January 27, 2015
> ...


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## Sopomon (Oct 2, 2010)

Oh brilliant news! If only Oslo-Bergen could be made faster (not until 2200 quite probably)


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Even Oslo-Stockholm could be made far, far faster if they got the rails and route better. I took that train a few years ago and between Karlstad and Oslo it was real slow going.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Bird's distance *Stockholm-Oslo* is *415km*, but the connections between these cities are very poor. I did a search and found out that if I want to travel this route today I have to go to Göteborg first and then change train to Oslo from there, which means 7h 22 min of traveltime, at best. At some other times this journey can take up to 13 hours.



*Copenhagen *on the other hand is *520km* away from Stockholm bird's distance. This train takes about 5h 3 min, so the danish capital is much more accesable , although it's located further away.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

There are direct trains Stockholm-Oslo today too. Like the article states though the trip is longer than the time you have for STH-CPH by 35 minutes and is 38% longer than the straight-line distance between the cities (STH-OSL). The line is old and winding. If it had the same quality as the line Sth-GBG the time might already be something like 4½ hours I guess.


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## Slartibartfas (Aug 15, 2006)

The service Stockholm-Oslo is quite usable. Connections under 6 h make perfectly sense. But I also had the impression that it was pretty slow going in parts. That there is huge potential for improvement shows the fact that they could reduce the travel time by 1 hour just like that. 4 1/2 h are for 572 km really ok I'd say.


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## Coccodrillo (Sep 30, 2005)

Two photos of a loco and a driving trailer of an X2000 en route to SOB's Samstagern works:

https://bahnbilder.ch/picture/16531

https://bahnbilder.ch/picture/16532


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Train *527* Stockholm-Malmö delayed today. It was supposed to leave Linköping at 11 ó clock. 23 min delay is not common, but it happends at times.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Not common? Every time I've taken a train in this country it has been delayed. No compensation and no care from SJ of course. Last time took the cake, though. Stranded in Örebro, all trains cancelled, SJ said no compensation beyond "free ticket next day". Refused to pay for a coach journey, refused to do anything in fact. SJ, nothing but a barrel of laughs.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

I'm assuming "Signalfel" is the reason for the delay, i.e. a signalling failure?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Yep, a common occurrence. Each time I have had a problem it's either been due to a train breaking down or a signal failure.


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## fireflyH2O (Apr 28, 2008)

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Not common? Every time I've taken a train in this country it has been delayed. No compensation and no care from SJ of course. Last time took the cake, though. Stranded in Örebro, all trains cancelled, SJ said no compensation beyond "free ticket next day". Refused to pay for a coach journey, refused to do anything in fact. SJ, nothing but a barrel of laughs.


Oh come one. I commute a whole freaking year from Uppsala- Stockholm and hey were rarely delay.


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

Yeah, I commuted from Uppsala to Stockholm for about a year, and there were a few major delays over that year, but we're talking 3-4 times in a year. And this was during the winter of '11-'12 when there was a lot of snow and cold weather. 

Now I use the pendeltåg daily, and there are delays now and then, but not terribly often. We did have a string of serious derailments last year, but now it's been a few cases of "obehöriga på spåret" and one or two "signalfel", but not that much else recently.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

fireflyH2O said:


> Oh come one. I commute a whole freaking year from Uppsala- Stockholm and hey were rarely delay.


As do many that I work with. Funny how their take on reliability of trains is quite different to your own. But hey, this is the country that decided that 15 minutes delay is counted as "on time" by measures from Trafikverket since 2012. SJ is also one of the least trusted brands in Sweden in consumer surveys. Must be a reason for this mustn't there if they're all on time and running peachy keen.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...iken-orders-more-alstom-emus.html?channel=529
> 
> *Skånetrafiken orders more Alstom EMUs*
> Thursday, February 05, 2015
> ...


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Not surprised. Those trains are working pretty well all over Sweden (in X60, X61 and X62 forms) and Pågatågen have rising passenger numbers iirc. Stockholms getting more X60 deliviered soonish too.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ That'll be good as it'll replace the older trains on the pendeltåg system. They are getting on in years now aren't they?


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

Svartmetall said:


> As do many that I work with. Funny how their take on reliability of trains is quite different to your own. But hey, this is the country that decided that 15 minutes delay is counted as "on time" by measures from Trafikverket since 2012. SJ is also one of the least trusted brands in Sweden in consumer surveys. Must be a reason for this mustn't there if they're all on time and running peachy keen.


I don't think anyone's arguing that there isn't room for improvement. But I _do_ think that there has developed a negative cycle of perception, where any delay adds to an already established "truth" about SL and SJ, even though most of the time the trains actually do run on time. 

Like I said, I commute, and it works well. Have I experienced delays? Of course. And they make me curse as much as the next guy. It's super annoying. But it doesn't actually happen all that often.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Of course they'll run on time if the goalposts are moved. It changed from "5 minutes late is counted as late" to "15 minutes late is counted as late". Strange how our punctuality increased markedly in 2012.


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## Rebasepoiss (Jan 6, 2007)

^^ IMO, if I miss another connection because of a delay, it's a delay. Be it 4 minutes or 15 minutes. But yes, 15 minutes is way too long to consider something a delay. A train is late if more than a minute late in Japan, if I'm not mistaken?


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

I'm not talking about official statistics. I'm talking about my lived experience. Of course 5 minutes is late to me. If my morning train is 5 minutes late I'll be late for work. Most mornings, my train arrives on the dot. A few mornings it's 1-2 minutes late, and now and then some general problem (signalfel, personer på spåret, olycka or whatever) stops traffic completely or makes it run with considerable delays (5, 10, 15 minutes). 

Like I said, of course there could be improvements. It's not like this isn't a hot political issue. My point is that sometimes the rhetoric makes it sound as if traffic is completely unreliable, but as someone who commutes daily that's just not the case.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

More delays today. The train from Sala was 20 min late
The train from Stockholm to Malmö/Copenhagen was 8 min late


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Trains being late happen even in a supposedly "perfect" Switzerland. Mine was 5 min late this evening. It's not a popular topic for complaints, though.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Stångådalsbanan- a branch line at wintertime*









*Unguarded railway crossing.*At this time of the year in the winter, trains are virtually silent, so it is important to carefully drive across the track. No trains give signals either before the railway crossing, possibly they do it if the engine driver sees some car that is heading towards the railway crossing.









Hardly the trains pass here at 90km / h. Rather at 40km / h instead.


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## suburbicide (May 4, 2012)

NordikNerd said:


> At this time of the year in the winter, trains are virtually silent, so it is important to carefully drive across the track. No trains give signals either before the railway crossing,


Is this standard for unsignalled crossings in Sweden?


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

The rail tracks are being layed in a new 8.7 km long Hallandsås tunnel/Hallandsås Ridge Tunnel at full speed nowadays. The process should be finished this week and then some more work will be done prior the expected traffic launch this year.









Source









Source

More information: *Spårläggningen går som på räls i Hallandsås*


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Finally!
Looks like the first trains will run through the tunnel this year  Not sure about the planned entry into regular service, but there should be ample time for testing.

EDIT:
According to the webpage for the project the line will enter regular service in 10 months time! 2015-12-13 is the date given. 
Worth quoteing from there is also what will happen when it is put into service:


Trafikverket said:


> A tunnel through the Hallandsås Ridge will increase the capacity of the line. It will enable the weight of freight trains to be doubled and will be used by 24 trains per hour instead of the current rate of 4 trains per hour. The speed of the trains will increase from 80 to 200 kilometres per hour and safety will improve since 20 dangerous level crossings will be eliminated.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Big improvement even if 20 years late


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Maintennance of the Y2 train is going on. Filling water for toilets and catering.









Today's train to Västervik was replaced by bus, due to service of the Y31 railbuses.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

So what the hell happened to Swedish Railways?


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

I was searching SJ website to find how fast is currently the fastest train between Malmo and Goetheburg (2 h 26 m, about the same as driving) and was surprised to see that tickets on the fastest train are actually significantly cheaper than on slower (almost 1 h) alternatives. In fact even a first class ticket is cheaper than any ticket on the slow train. Sure it's for non-rebookable tickets, but only a week in advance and most non-business passengers know their plans that long in advance. By the way one would pay more than this for a 2 h journey in Switzerland even with a half-fare card let alone without it...


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Good for Switzerland. You earn more money, pay less taxes and actually have a good rail system. We don't. Ours is rubbish and a waste of time. I've pretty much given up travelling around this country thanks to the transport network being so bad (and the fact they won't recognise my drivers licence) so yeah, I go abroad to escape as much as I can get time off work.

Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management. Nor does China on their up and coming network. You like it so much? Move to a country that suffers from it and then comment on how good it is.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Well, I've only been to Sweden once so I can hardly claim to be an expert but this particular connection seems to be pretty good. On paper at least 

And there are also some positives to living in Sweden as opposed to Switzerland. Not that I'm complaining about my lot or anything


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ Good for Switzerland. You earn more money, pay less taxes and actually have a good rail system. We don't. Ours is rubbish and a waste of time. I've pretty much given up travelling around this country thanks to the transport network being so bad (and the fact they won't recognise my drivers licence) so yeah, I go abroad to escape as much as I can get time off work.
> 
> Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management. Nor does China on their up and coming network. You like it so much? Move to a country that suffers from it and then comment on how good it is.


Are you ok? Which countries use yield management?


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## Ramino (Mar 26, 2014)

Svartmetall said:


> Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management.


Have you seen the price tag on those Shinkansen tickets?
Also, the SBB _does_ offer yield managed fares.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> Sounds like you're just a die-hard sucker for yield managed fares for railways. Good for you, but it sucks as detailed in the Japanese thread. Switzerland and Japan, both the most successful rail nations in the world for passengers do not use yield management. Nor does China on their up and coming network. You like it so much? Move to a country that suffers from it and then comment on how good it is.


You don't have to agree with me, but I'd appreciate keeping the discussion civil. 

I live in Switzerland so you needn't lecture me about advantages or disadvantages of our rail system. I'm not inclined to repeat this discussion here.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Ramino said:


> Have you seen the price tag on those Shinkansen tickets?
> Also, the SBB _does_ offer yield managed fares.


Have I been on the Shinkansen and paid for the tickets? Yes. Yes I have. The Shinkansen is priced so that it can capture the majority modal share for the routes it serves over the mid-long distance journeys. Very long distances of course it loses out to air, but mid-long it has the majority because of its pricing. How does SJ do? Terribly. You pay for poor service, poor reliability and a generally awful experience. It doesn't even manage to capture the majority of the market here in Sweden for similar journeys so obviously there is a problem with its business model.

Travelling tomorrow - Stockholm to Gothenburg 955kr one way (that's 13,455 yen) approximately 466km by road and takes 3:03h. 
Travelling tomorrow - Tokyo to Kyoto 13,910 one way (987kr) approximately 513.6 km and takes 138 min.

Difference? Quality of service and reliability as well as speed and frequency. 




Sunfuns said:


> You don't have to agree with me, but I'd appreciate keeping the discussion civil.
> 
> I live in Switzerland so you needn't lecture me about advantages or disadvantages of our rail system. I'm not inclined to repeat this discussion here.


You see fit to lecture me about the Swedish rail system. I tell you it's pants on head stupid (like most things here), you disagree. I spent three months (well, one month and two months in two separate trips) touring your country. I have at least used your system more than you have the system here so that does at least qualify me to the same degree to comment on your system as it does for you to comment on the one here.

As for civility, that was civil. I didn't insult you more than to say you're a die-hard sucker for yield managed railways, in other words someone who firmly believes in that practice. Whilst it is a more colourful turn of phrase, I'd hardly call it "uncivil".


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> Travelling tomorrow - Stockholm to Gothenburg 955kr one way (that's 13,455 yen) approximately 466km by road and takes 3:03h.
> Travelling tomorrow - Tokyo to Kyoto 13,910 one way (987kr) approximately 513.6 km and takes 138 min.
> 
> Difference? Quality of service and reliability as well as speed and frequency.


That's not quite fair. Whatever are the troubles of your incumbent operator it's hardly their fault that the government, and it would have to be government with your population density, haven't spent a lot of money building proper high speed lines. 




Svartmetall said:


> *You see fit to lecture me about the Swedish rail system.* I tell you it's pants on head stupid (like most things here), you disagree. I spent three months (well, one month and two months in two separate trips) touring your country. I have at least used your system more than you have the system here so that does at least qualify me to the same degree to comment on your system as it does for you to comment on the one here.


My first comment in this thread had nothing to do with you personally at all. I tried to find out how the newly finished tunnel would fit in Goetheburg-Malmo line and wrote a comment in this thread about my impression on service (on paper - no idea about delays or customer service) being pretty good both time wise for a nondedicated line and for price. I still stand by it. Swiss trains are also only on par with driving except in few cases where long tunnels have made shortcuts (Bern- upper Wallis most prominently).


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Sunfuns said:


> That's not quite fair. Whatever are the troubles of your incumbent operator it's hardly their fault that the government, and it would have to be government with your population density, haven't spent a lot of money building proper high speed lines.


Well, it is their fault that their service sucks and that they are not fairly priced given the level of service they give. Plus, don't forget, SJ is the government, they are state owned. As for population density, it's not so sparse in this part of the country y'know. Up north, yes, but in the south, not really as many towns/cities are strung along the railway lines giving them a good population capture along the lines. 



Sunfuns said:


> My first comment in this thread had nothing to do with you personally at all. I tried to find out how the newly finished tunnel would fit in Goetheburg-Malmo line and wrote a comment in this thread about my impression on service (on paper - no idea about delays or customer service) being pretty good both time wise for a nondedicated line and for price. I still stand by it. Swiss trains are also only on par with driving except in few cases where long tunnels have made shortcuts (Bern- upper Wallis most prominently).


The longer the distance and fewer the stops the faster the train will be as it takes a while to bring them back to cruising speed. Therefore having few stops on a long line automatically gives it an edge over a more urban or frequent stop service.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> Well, it is their fault that their service sucks and that they are not fairly priced given the level of service they give. Plus, don't forget, SJ is the government, they are state owned. As for population density, it's not so sparse in this part of the country y'know. Up north, yes, but in the south, not really as many towns/cities are strung along the railway lines giving them a good population capture along the lines.


Don't know if you saw it, but there was a discussion about this in the Spanish thread. I was a bit surprised, but apparently maintenance costs of a regular line and HS line are very similar and if so you can't expect it to be much cheaper unless the service is subsidised in one way or another.

The reason I mentioned population density is that very high density has allowed Japanese to build HSR by private investment. In every other country so far it has been a government funded endeavour.



Svartmetall said:


> The longer the distance and fewer the stops the faster the train will be as it takes a while to bring them back to cruising speed. Therefore having few stops on a long line automatically gives it an edge over a more urban or frequent stop service.


Yes of course, but what point are you trying to make here? :?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Sunfuns said:


> Don't know if you saw it, but there was a discussion about this in the Spanish thread. I was a bit surprised, but apparently maintenance costs of a regular line and HS line are very similar and if so you can't expect it to be much cheaper unless the service is subsidised in one way or another.
> 
> The reason I mentioned population density is that very high density has allowed Japanese to build HSR by private investment. In every other country so far it has been a government funded endeavour.


No. Look at the source of funding for the Shinkansen - it was government funded and built from the start and the JR groups inherited the network. Also, the Tohoku shinkansen passes through the Tohoku region which has a population density of only 140 people per km. The shinkansen is also being extended to Hokaido, which does have a low population density so I don't understand your point here.



Sunfuns said:


> Yes of course, but what point are you trying to make here? :?


That you're comparing Switzerland, a place with dense stations and a dense population and network that is competing against motorways with high speed limits. Here you have a network geared to longer distances and fewer stops, so of course it's more competitive against the car than in a denser country. You should be more impressed that the train can compete at all in Switzerland.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> That you're comparing Switzerland, a place with dense stations and a dense population and network that is competing against motorways with high speed limits. Here you have a network geared to longer distances and fewer stops, so of course it's more competitive against the car than in a denser country. *You should be more impressed that the train can compete at all in Switzerland.*


Trains with many stops don't manage it. I was talking about express trains. There is for example a non-stop train twice an hour between Basel and Zurich. Takes 53 min, driving is about 1 h without heavy traffic. 

In flatter countries it's easier to achieve higher average speed without very expensive tunnelling and bridge building. Railways are more affected by difficult geography than motorways.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Sunfuns said:


> Trains with many stops don't manage it. I was talking about express trains. There is for example a non-stop train twice an hour between Basel and Zurich. Takes 53 min, driving is about 1 h without heavy traffic.
> 
> In flatter countries it's easier to achieve higher average speed without very expensive tunnelling and bridge building. Railways are more affected by difficult geography than motorways.


A non-stop train that leaves you centre to centre in a bit less time that runs twice an hour is quite an impressive feat if one gets a decent level of service and comfort with that. If price also becomes more competitive (if you own a card that allows access to local public transport as well as trains) then it does become very attractive. Like I said, it's a different situation here whereby you have inflexibility (due to yield management) which kills the spontaneous traveller, you have poor service and in my opinion poor reliability and comfort too, that is why SJ will fail to capture the modal share one sees elsewhere. This is why I don't like the train system here.

Sure, it's easier in flat countries, and this is exactly why the Swiss rail system consistently impressed me with its comfort, punctuality and speed. Here doesn't have the excuse of difficult terrain on the whole.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

Railway systems in Scandinavia aren't that impressive from what I understand despite their wealth. Denmark seems to be only country who is investing into a modern, faster rail system.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ Well, you have to put it into context here. Sweden does have a pretty good railway system by international standards given its population density. What it doesn't have is a government that is properly investing in improvements and a decent company to run trains on the system. Customer service needs to be improved too. I mean, we definitely have a functioning transport network, but I want more for the amount that it costs. As with everything in Sweden, it is expensive relative to what you get.


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## LtBk (Jul 27, 2004)

How long it's been going on like that in Sweden?


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

LtBk said:


> How long it's been going on like that in Sweden?


SJ has been loathed as long as it has existed, even going as far back as the 1940s. And not only by its users, also the workers have always complained of the poor management all the way back to the funding years of the company. 

The never ending problems with Swedish railways in recent winters for example, were just as prevailent during hard winters in the 1980s, 1970s, 1960s and 1940s. In the 1990s there were no hard winters so most people forgot about how bad it was, but the reality is it has never been good in the first place.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Back in 1980 the old brown Da & Hg locos were still common on some less important sidelines, while the orange Rc-loco was predominant on the main lines.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

ArtManDoo said:


> My opinion is that it is because there is car industry in Sweden. The car lobby by Volvo, Saab etc is the reason by my opinion why the railway is as it is in Sweden.


I'm not so sure about the car lobby, it is true that right wing governments build more motorways and left wing governments build more public transport, beyond that I don't think the car lobby has had much of an influence in Sweden.

The USA is really the only western country where the car lobby succesfully has managed to destroy the railway as a personal transport system. You have a huge car lobby i Germany yet they have the largest railway system in Europe. Spain has a huge car industry (16% of all employments) and yet they build tons of new railways. Both France and Italy are car-centric countries and they still build and invest in railway construction and modernization.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

gincan said:


> I'm not so sure about the car lobby, it is true that right wing governments build more motorways and left wing governments build more public transport, beyond that I don't think the car lobby has had much of an influence in Sweden.


Actually about 10 years ago there was a priority funding taken from a railway project to a construction of a new expressway to the city of Trollhättan where SAAB used to manufacture cars.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Coccodrillo said:


> With the Swiss km-based tariff and no reservations* many people concentrate on peak hours/days, but these times are predictable thus SBB simply adds more trains, with prices affordable to most Swiss (which have at least an half-fare card) *and still SBB covers the costs.*


That's right, but we do have to take into account that there are no real long distance routes where an alternative to taking a train would be to fly. Also perhaps not everyone here knows that trains in Switzerland have a monopoly on public intercity traffic. Competition by buses is forbidden so there are only two alternatives - a train or your own car. Lot of people living in big cities don't own a car so SBB has a captive audience there.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Which in turn leads to more people taking the train, which in turn leads to better fares due to meeting profit requirements which also means that it is easier to keep a decent level of service and keep the system in good order. This is the mantra that the Japanese railways, which are private companies, have. It seems the situation in Switzerland is little different other than the state being the operator rather than private companies.

This is the problem with Swedish rail - they don't cover costs, they don't provide a good service and they do not invest properly in the system.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

MarcVD said:


> To give a point of comparison : Brussels-Brugge, 100 km, done in one hour, half-hourly service, with return, in second class, costs &#128; 28,20 full fare, &#128; 15,20 with a 50% reduction card or during the week-end.


Where an I buy such a reduction card?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

NordikNerd said:


> No reservations and you buy your ticket just before departure?


Yes. And I keep running in to tourists who are flabbergasted that the train from Zürich Airport to Bern costs three times what it costs to fly from London to Zürich, and that you can't reduce that by buying in advance.
SBB really needs to introduce advance purchase savings fares. Otherwise we will see more tourists decide to just rent a car (or just stay away).
SBB needs yield management. And they know it. 
It would eliminate absurd situations like where SBB has to buy an expensive TGV set only to run between Zürich and Basel...


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

K_ said:


> Where an I buy such a reduction card?


I'm not sure it is still sold. I used to be, you could buy it from any SNCB
counter. I have one because I am the proud father of 3 children, and this
status of "large family" gives me the right to have such a card for free
(my children have it until they leave the house, my wife and me keep this
right forever). And anyone can have this 50% reduction for any return ticket
valid during the weekend. In general, belgian rail travel is quite cheap in
Belgium : it's all km-based, and the fares are the second lowest in Europe,
just after Italy ; many people get their season ticket to commute to
work for free ; and there are even cheaper tickets for seniors too.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

K_ said:


> Yes. And I keep running in to tourists who are flabbergasted that the train from Zürich Airport to Bern costs three times what it costs to fly from London to Zürich, and that you can't reduce that by buying in advance.
> SBB really needs to introduce advance purchase savings fares. Otherwise we will see more tourists decide to just rent a car (or just stay away).


This is the big weakness of Swiss rail system. Ticket prices are fine for me, but when my parents come to visit and we don't want to stay in Basel only we rent a car. Way cheaper than train for three people with only me having a half fare card. Maybe something like Japan rail pass would be good.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

^^ You have a Swiss rail pass. Unless you scrapped it recently, both times I spent extended periods of time I bought a rail pass for Switzerland that covered the whole network and gave unlimited journeys...


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

K_ said:


> Yes. And I keep running in to tourists who are flabbergasted that the train from Zürich Airport to Bern costs three times what it costs to fly from London to Zürich, and that you can't reduce that by buying in advance.
> SBB really needs to introduce advance purchase savings fares. Otherwise we will see more tourists decide to just rent a car (or just stay away).
> SBB needs yield management. And they know it.
> It would eliminate absurd situations like where SBB has to buy an expensive TGV set only to run between Zürich and Basel...


Railways do not exist just to cater for tourists. Yield management would probably be worse for Swiss people in general so no. Don't use it. It kills good railway systems.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> ^^ You have a Swiss rail pass. Unless you scrapped it recently, both times I spent extended periods of time I bought a rail pass for Switzerland that covered the whole network and gave unlimited journeys...


The Swiss Rail Pass isn't exactly cheap either...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> Railways do not exist just to cater for tourists. Yield management would probably be worse for Swiss people in general so no. Don't use it. It kills good railway systems.


If yield management kills railways, why aren't they dying?

The problem all railways have is that the demand for their services is not constant. On certain times of the day demand is a lot higher then on others. On those times they could ask more, which means more revenue, which means less dependence on politics, and more money for investment.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

K_ said:


> If yield management kills railways, why aren't they dying?
> 
> The problem all railways have is that the demand for their services is not constant. On certain times of the day demand is a lot higher then on others. On those times they could ask more, which means more revenue, which means less dependence on politics, and more money for investment.


That's nonsense. The Swiss rail is already profitable, as is the Japanese nearly across the board except for a few third sector railways. Why break a formula that clearly works? Advocates of yield management seem to ignore this fact. 

The point about "more demand therefore we can price gouge more" is just a pure profit making strategy, and isn't good from a holistic transport perspective. Captive riders resent that kind of behaviour - I mean look at the UK and their crazy pricing for commuters (hint, 7000 pounds for a ticket from Northampton and London and back per year, and that doesn't allow you on ANY other railway company). Railways are popular in the UK but the modal share is poor overall, but in Japan and Switzerland the modal share is more balanced by comparison. Therefore one has to ask which system is better from a countrywide perspective rather than just a bottom line perspective.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

K_ said:


> SBB really needs to introduce advance purchase savings fares. Otherwise we will see more tourists decide to just rent a car (or just stay away).
> SBB needs yield management. And they know it.


That already exists?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

AlexNL said:


> That already exists?


It's not true yield management though, those are just special deals. Yield management means moving away from the fixed distance-based fare system that SBB has and implementing the madness that a few other railways (like the Swedish and UK rail systems) have. 

For those who think the fares for the Swiss pass are expensive - unlimited travel in Switzerland for 15 days plus public transport in 75 cities, 50% of museum fees (480 museums), 50% discount on private mountain railways and one free child under 16 per Swiss pass for only 440 CHF. To me that is a bargain and a half - that means two adults and two children under 16 can travel for half a month for only 880CHF. A mid-sized car to cope with a family for 15 days sets you back around 520 CHF without all insurance waivers (and 1,011.62CHF after adding insurance). Personally I find the pass a good deal based on this.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Railway in Kiruna, Norrbotten County:

Untitled by Ewantu, on Flickr


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> For those who think the fares for the Swiss pass are expensive - unlimited travel in Switzerland for 15 days plus public transport in 75 cities, 50% of museum fees (480 museums), 50% discount on private mountain railways and one free child under 16 per Swiss pass for only 440 CHF. To me that is a bargain and a half - that means two adults and two children under 16 can travel for half a month for only 880CHF. A mid-sized car to cope with a family for 15 days sets you back around 520 CHF without all insurance waivers (and 1,011.62CHF after adding insurance). Personally I find the pass a good deal based on this.


If you are really here for 15 days and want to travel a lot it might be a good idea, but on the other hand if you say come from Sweden to visit a friend in Bern for few days then your train tickets to/from Zurich airport will cost you 110 euros which might as well be more than you paid to fly here in the first place.

Swiss train tickets without any discounts are very expensive, not sure why you are still arguing about that part...


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> That's nonsense. The Swiss rail is already profitable, as is the Japanese nearly across the board except for a few third sector railways. Why break a formula that clearly works? Advocates of yield management seem to ignore this fact.


The Swiss IC/IR network breaks even. If you leave network maintenance out of it. The regional network is heavily subsidised. The SBB gets a lot of money from the government.
And the IC/IR network is profitable because competing with it is not allowed. Lets see what happens once we allow private bus operators to offer long distance services...



> The point about "more demand therefore we can price gouge more" is just a pure profit making strategy, and isn't good from a holistic transport perspective.


More profit leads to more investment, and more importantly, less depency on which side the wind is currently blowing from in the capital. That are good things in my opinion.
And anyway, what is bad with profit? If you ask X for a product, and sell all of it, then this means that your product was worth at least X to begin with. The profit is just that part of the added value you produce you keep for yourself.



> Captive riders resent that kind of behaviour - I mean look at the UK and their crazy pricing for commuters (hint, 7000 pounds for a ticket from Northampton and London and back per year, and that doesn't allow you on ANY other railway company). Railways are popular in the UK but the modal share is poor overall, but in Japan and Switzerland the modal share is more balanced by comparison. Therefore one has to ask which system is better from a countrywide perspective rather than just a bottom line perspective.


The UK has it's own problems with the trains. But given that the train to London are overflowing during rush hour the problem clearly isn't that the fares are to high.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> For those who think the fares for the Swiss pass are expensive - unlimited travel in Switzerland for 15 days plus public transport in 75 cities, 50% of museum fees (480 museums), 50% discount on private mountain railways and one free child under 16 per Swiss pass for only 440 CHF.


And then there are the passes sold to residents. Like the GA. This is a steal. And as a result trains are overflowing during rush hour...


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

K_ said:


> The Swiss IC/IR network breaks even. If you leave network maintenance out of it. The regional network is heavily subsidised. The SBB gets a lot of money from the government.
> And the IC/IR network is profitable because competing with it is not allowed. Lets see what happens once we allow private bus operators to offer long distance services...


Are SBB contracted by the government to run the services? If so then it's no different to a private tender situation that occurs in many countries with yield managed railway fare systems too (like the UK in fact). 

Also, does it matter if competition isn't allowed? Why do you think competition would make it better? In Sweden there is competition between trains and buses, but the trains are still dire. 



K_ said:


> More profit leads to more investment, and more importantly, less depency on which side the wind is currently blowing from in the capital. That are good things in my opinion.
> And anyway, what is bad with profit? If you ask X for a product, and sell all of it, then this means that your product was worth at least X to begin with. The profit is just that part of the added value you produce you keep for yourself.


Does it? There is a point at which the public get sick of being gouged for profits. This is where the JR Group companies have excelled. They have priced themselves at the sweet spot whereby they manage the majority modal share for medium/medium-long journeys in Japan by having fares that are competitive with car and air travel. This maximised revenue through volume rather than by just having high fares. 



K_ said:


> The UK has it's own problems with the trains. But given that the train to London are overflowing during rush hour the problem clearly isn't that the fares are to high.


Yet the modal share to commuting to London isn't that great. Plus, like I said, these are captive users, those that don't really have a choice due to the sheer impossibility of parking in London unless your workplace provides parking (and that's like hens teeth). So by default they can gouge the customers. Doesn't make it good practice, though, and now the government themselves are saying that high rail fares to London are hurting the UK economically by making commuting to London no longer worthwhile for workers below a certain salary threshold as it consumes (on average) 23% of their income per year just to commute into the capital. That's a significant amount of money. 



K_ said:


> And then there are the passes sold to residents. Like the GA. This is a steal. And as a result trains are overflowing during rush hour...


I don't understand what you're arguing here? Are you now saying the Swiss pass is a good deal? If so I agree. 



Sunfuns said:


> If you are really here for 15 days and want to travel a lot it might be a good idea, but on the other hand if you say come from Sweden to visit a friend in Bern for few days then your train tickets to/from Zurich airport will cost you 110 euros which might as well be more than you paid to fly here in the first place.
> 
> Swiss train tickets without any discounts are very expensive, not sure why you are still arguing about that part...



Because K_ said that the fares were expensive for the Swiss pass. Most tourists who actually tour and travel around a country come for longer than just one day. If it's a one day or two day visit, then swallowing a small expense is okay (like the train from the airport). But his initial point was that the system disadvantaged tourists. I disagree given the value for money that one sees with the Swiss pass for railways for those tourists that are going to spend a period of time in your country.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

K_ said:


> And yet you keep on arguing that they should only ask that price...


No, I am advocating a middle of the road price, not a set "highest-possible-price-one-can-see-on-the-website" price. 



K_ said:


> I've just had a look. I notice they do yield management as well. They're cheaper than SJ, slightly slower and offer less departures (for now, I assume).


Yes, they do use yield management. Where did I say they didn't? Of course they offer less departures, they're only just starting to operate... 



K_ said:


> The main reason is parking (or lack thereof). Most employers in the main cities do not provide parking for their employees.


In Switzerland or Japan? There is plenty of private parking in Japan if one wants to pay for it. Your choice, free market and all that. 



K_ said:


> That is why I am asking.
> But if average occupancy is 80% with upwards of 10 trains per hour they do indeed not need yield management.
> This has been my argument al along: It depends on the market. If you run 1 tph and average occupancy is 30%, how do you get more people in to those empty seats. Is it wrong for a railway to try to better fill the trains?


Yet NONE of the railways in Japan use yield management - even 3rd sector ones. 



K_ said:


> Commuter tickets to London are not subject to "yield management". I don't know what you are talking about. Yield management refers to trying to fill empty seats (that in fact have a zero marginal cost to the railway) by offering discounted fares for those seats.
> What commuter passes to London apparently still are is rather cheap, or the trains wouldn't be so full.


Now you're being obtuse. I meant since the introduction of yield managed fares and the privatisation of BR, fares have gone up exponentially for commuter passes as well. Nowhere did I imply that the commuter passes were subject to yield management. 



K_ said:


> Think of it. A train cannot be full and "too expensive" at the same time. If you think this is possible you don't understand basic economics.


You can make any system full by paring back services to minimum required services. 



K_ said:


> There are also examples of systems that do use yield management and that are very successful.
> It all depends on the market you are operating in.
> What should a railway do that finds itself in the position that regardless of which prices (high or low) they ask for tickets they will never make a profit, but with differentiated prices they can make a profit. What should a railway do that finds itself in this situation?


Which examples are "very successful" and turn a profit with yield management? Who are the profitable railways? What other railways manage to capture such a share of the market compared to private vehicles and aircraft as in those two examples I just named? This is also an important point - it's not just about profitability, it's about utility and achieving mode balance in a country. Roads are not expected to be profitable, they are a public service - why should railway be different, hm?



K_ said:


> Why should the railway not charge you what the market will bear?


In which case we should do the same with road tolls and just keep putting them up until we start seeing diminishing returns.



K_ said:


> If someone wants me to come and fix hist network first thing tomorrow, without advance warning, he's going to pay a hefty premium as well.


That's hardly the same example is it? You're talking about travelling and competing against the car as a mode of transportation. 



K_ said:


> And there reason you can get these deals is because the airlines are even more aggressive when it comes to yield management.
> But this of course begs the question: Why do you not find it an issue to plan your travel in advance when it is by air, but do take issue when it is by rail.
> I mean, Stockholm - Göteborg is a distance that if I were to undertake it from my hometown would take me across three borders. Why is it such a problem that you need to plan ahead a bit if you want to do it at bargain prices?


Because I, unfortunately live in a country with rubbish weather and have a job that requires me to work most weekends at least for a few hours. This constrains my travel to actual booked holiday leave (for any longer distance travel). If it is going away for a weekend, I like to just up and go (for example, when the weather is good), and that is simply impossible with yield managed railways. Just because the distance is greater because Sweden is a gigantic, sparsely populated mess doesn't mean that it is in any way the same as you travelling a similar distance in your own country. 

No, the car is the only way I would ever consider travelling around Sweden based on flexibility and cost. Funnily enough, most other people feel the same.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> No, I am advocating a middle of the road price, not a set "highest-possible-price-one-can-see-on-the-website" price.


1) Why then do you keep pointing at JR and SBB, two companies that charge premium prices, not middle of the road ones.
3) What if with the "middle of the road" price the railway becomes unprofitable?
4) What do you think that people who have gotten used to take advantage of cheap fares will do? (For example, I usually book my trips from Switzerland to Belgium a month in advance, which allows me to travel in first class at a price I am willing to pay).
5) People for whom travelling is not worth the new, higher price, will not travel. So you will lose customers.



> You can make any system full by paring back services to minimum required services.


You cannot force someone to board a train. Every single passenger on board a train is there because he wants to. 
If I offer standing room in cattle cars at 100 euro a pop, and I manage to fill my trains, then the conclusion is that apparently people value standing upright in cattle cars more than hanging on to their 100 euro. 
That's an extreme example, but it's econ 101. People's behaviour tells us what they value. If a train is full it means that for a train load of people this train was not to expensive.



> Which examples are "very successful" and turn a profit with yield management?
> Who are the profitable railways? What other railways manage to capture such a share of the market compared to private vehicles and aircraft as in those two examples I just named?


In Europe not a single railway is really profitable, not the way the Japanese are. But some are doing better then others. The French TGV system is undeniably quite successful. On Paris - Brussel the train dominates. 



> This is also an important point - it's not just about profitability, it's about utility and achieving mode balance in a country. Roads are not expected to be profitable, they are a public service - why should railway be different, hm?


You can turn this around: Why shouldn't roads be profitable as well?
But I agree that where there is a positive externality this changes things. That is why I do treat commuter and regional rail different from long distance rail.



> In which case we should do the same with road tolls and just keep putting them up until we start seeing diminishing returns.


Yes. We should. Like in Japan...




> That's hardly the same example is it? You're talking about travelling and competing against the car as a mode of transportation.


For competing against the car the main tool is transit passes. That is how SBB is so successful. When I commute to work almost everyone in the train has a GA. 
However, when the main competitor is air or long distance buses, and they offer discount fares you have to follow. Or lose your customers.

Actually SBB is getting really aggressive with it's discount fares now. I see adds for them everywhere.



> Because I, unfortunately live in a country with rubbish weather and have a job that requires me to work most weekends at least for a few hours.


It's of course your job. And I know the feeling. However I assume the job pays well, so that ought to compensate for the fact that you can't buy discounted rail tickets...


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

K_ said:


> 1) Why then do you keep pointing at JR and SBB, two companies that charge premium prices, not middle of the road ones.
> 3) What if with the "middle of the road" price the railway becomes unprofitable?
> 4) What do you think that people who have gotten used to take advantage of cheap fares will do? (For example, I usually book my trips from Switzerland to Belgium a month in advance, which allows me to travel in first class at a price I am willing to pay).
> 5) People for whom travelling is not worth the new, higher price, will not travel. So you will lose customers.


JR (and the other private railways in Japan) are not premium services. Only the Shinkansen is. If you have time, and the inclination, you can take non-premium services around Japan and pay almost half what you would on the Shinkansen. That's the joy of the service, there is a price sensitive alternative. Commuting costs are not that high relative to income in Japan. Do you really feel that SBB is highly priced relative to income in Switzerland (and this is the crux, the cost for locals not necessarily for visitors). Sweden is expensive for locals too to travel on the trains without one of the time-sensitive offers. 



K_ said:


> You cannot force someone to board a train. Every single passenger on board a train is there because he wants to.


Or has little choice for another mode. 


I


K_ said:


> f I offer standing room in cattle cars at 100 euro a pop, and I manage to fill my trains, then the conclusion is that apparently people value standing upright in cattle cars more than hanging on to their 100 euro.
> That's an extreme example, but it's econ 101. People's behaviour tells us what they value. If a train is full it means that for a train load of people this train was not to expensive.


Or it means that the alternative choice is simply not a viable option. Like I said, the example I can think of is the London commuter where it is simply impossible to drive due to no parking at the job. 



K_ said:


> In Europe not a single railway is really profitable, not the way the Japanese are. But some are doing better then others. The French TGV system is undeniably quite successful. On Paris - Brussel the train dominates.


HSR being profitable is less of a stretch of the imagination than the network as a whole. Again, the Japanese railways are, network-wide. That is because Japan is smart enough to do exactly what we discuss below. 



K_ said:


> You can turn this around: Why shouldn't roads be profitable as well?
> But I agree that where there is a positive externality this changes things. That is why I do treat commuter and regional rail different from long distance rail.


I think they (roads) should be profitable. I also see some common ground emerging between us. I think HSR and premium services are more price-elastic than the bog standard service. I think my compromise would be to use yield managed premium services and then fixed price commuter and regional services. To a point I would be happier with this solution, as long as there is a fixed price alternative to the premium service. 

The thing is, that Sweden subsidises roads tremendously and thus skews the modal split towards cars. If there was equitable treatment to all modes then railways should have more subsidised fares to make them competitive with the car. Even for a single passenger, the car can be cheaper than the train, and therefore the modal choice is excessively skewed. Either subsidise both or make both fully user pays like, as you point out, Japan.



K_ said:


> For competing against the car the main tool is transit passes. That is how SBB is so successful. When I commute to work almost everyone in the train has a GA.
> However, when the main competitor is air or long distance buses, and they offer discount fares you have to follow. Or lose your customers.


But there we go - you're advocating low-cost alternatives that would never exist if yield management was widespread in Switzerland. Our rail pass in Sweden costs 43,300 SEK. This price point is well out of the reach of your average Swede as it is 1.8 times the median monthly salary. If you want public transport added onto this, it comes to 59,300 SEK. No one is going to be able to afford that for each family member. There are no other discount tickets like 50% off. This level of price inflexibility is crazy in my mind. There is no incentive to take the train unless you plan a month in advance... 



K_ said:


> It's of course your job. And I know the feeling. However I assume the job pays well, so that ought to compensate for the fact that you can't buy discounted rail tickets...


Nope, I get paid terribly. Scientists never get paid well. I do it because cancer ain't gonna cure itself (Cancer pharmacologist here, yey).


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Stockholm-Gothenburg to me at least seems more similar to TGV services competing with air travel (you can fly this route, right?) than Swiss regional services meant mostly for people commuting to their jobs. 

About alternative choices: in pretty much every country I can think off there is an alternative to buy and use a car instead of public transport. Of course there are costs to that too. In my case commuting with a car would be 2-3x more expensive and that's not counting depreciation of the car itself.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Sunfuns said:


> Stockholm-Gothenburg to me at least seems more similar to TGV services competing with air travel (you can fly this route, right?) than Swiss regional services meant mostly for people commuting to their jobs.


Except they are FAR slower and not well priced. 



Sunfuns said:


> About alternative choices: in pretty much every country I can think off there is an alternative to buy and use a car instead of public transport. Of course there are costs to that too. In my case commuting with a car would be 2-3x more expensive and that's not counting depreciation of the car itself.


I believe a car is cheaper here by quite a way for two people. If I could drive here I would.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> JR (and the other private railways in Japan) are not premium services. Only the Shinkansen is. If you have time, and the inclination, you can take non-premium services around Japan and pay almost half what you would on the Shinkansen. That's the joy of the service, there is a price sensitive alternative. Commuting costs are not that high relative to income in Japan. Do you really feel that SBB is highly priced relative to income in Switzerland (and this is the crux, the cost for locals not necessarily for visitors). Sweden is expensive for locals too to travel on the trains without one of the time-sensitive offers.


You were talking about prices. You called the SJ flexible fare a "premium price", and I just used the terminology. SBB would probably ask a full price of around 160-170 Euro for Stockholm - Göteborg. If you adjust for purchasing power that would come to about 120,-. Pretty much what SJ charges.

It's just to counter your argument where you keep pointing at SBB as an example to follow.



> Or has little choice for another mode.


One always has the choice not to travel. 


> Or it means that the alternative choice is simply not a viable option. Like I said, the example I can think of is the London commuter where it is simply impossible to drive due to no parking at the job.


You're missing my point. I am telling that the simple observation that people commute to London using a particular mode at a particular price _proves beyond reasonable doubt_ that for those people commuting to London using that mode is worth the price they are paying for it.

The fact that there are all kinds of circumstances that make commuting to London harder means basically that the _value_ of the product offered by the railways is higher. 




> HSR being profitable is less of a stretch of the imagination than the network as a whole. Again, the Japanese railways are, network-wide. That is because Japan is smart enough to do exactly what we discuss below.


But that is a fallacious argument. You are arguing that the Japanese railway network is profitable (which last time I looked as only the case on Honshu), because they don't use Yield management.
However, correlation is not causation. As a scientist you should know that...

There several possible alternative explanations. And I have put them forward here.
One alternative explanation is that the market they operate in is different, they don't need yield management. 
But another alternative explanation is that they are simply not allowed to do yield management. I don't know how prices are regulated in Japan. I do know that SBB would like to charge rush hour commuters a lot more then they do know. They however are not allowed to do this. So they in stead are gradually increasing prices, and offering incentives to travel off peak by introducing discounted fares. 



> I think HSR and premium services are more price-elastic than the bog standard service. I think my compromise would be to use yield managed premium services and then fixed price commuter and regional services. To a point I would be happier with this solution, as long as there is a fixed price alternative to the premium service.


But isn't this exactly what we have now?



> There is no incentive to take the train unless you plan a month in advance...


I'll be in Sweden this summer. On a first class interrail pass...



> Nope, I get paid terribly. Scientists never get paid well. I do it because cancer ain't gonna cure itself (Cancer pharmacologist here, yey).


So part of your "pay" is non monetary. Still the fact that you are doing what you are doing proves that to you it's worth doing over not doing it...


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

K_ said:


> You were talking about prices. You called the SJ flexible fare a "premium price", and I just used the terminology. SBB would probably ask a full price of around 160-170 Euro for Stockholm - Göteborg. If you adjust for purchasing power that would come to about 120,-. Pretty much what SJ charges.


Fair enough, I'll acknowledge single fares are expensive in Switzerland, but is that with the 50% reduction card? If not, then you cannot compare given how we don't even have the option of such a card. This is what makes the railways there more viable even if the single fares are expensive. Here the fares are just expensive and there is no potential for discount unless you book in advance. That's just stupidity. 



K_ said:


> One always has the choice not to travel.


And that is the thing about this country that makes me positively suicidal. 



K_ said:


> You're missing my point. I am telling that the simple observation that people commute to London using a particular mode at a particular price _proves beyond reasonable doubt_ that for those people commuting to London using that mode is worth the price they are paying for it.


Lack of choice doesn't mean that they think the price is worth it. 



K_ said:


> The fact that there are all kinds of circumstances that make commuting to London harder means basically that the _value_ of the product offered by the railways is higher.


Is it a good thing to just take advantage of such a situation and milk it? I, personally, think such practices are actually bad for a country as a whole economically as the only people who miss out are the middle class. Reduced disposable income in the middle class has a big knock-on effect to the rest of the economy (especially the UK which is so sensitive to drops in domestic consumption). 



K_ said:


> But that is a fallacious argument. You are arguing that the Japanese railway network is profitable (which last time I looked as only the case on Honshu), because they don't use Yield management.
> However, correlation is not causation. As a scientist you should know that...


No, JR East, JR Central, JR West, JR Kyushu and JR Shikoku are all profitable, though Shikoku suffers a wee bit more due to low population relative to extensiveness of railway coverage - heck they had a record profit of 850,000,000yen. Even JR Hokkaido isn't doing that badly. JR Shikoku and JR Hokkaido are both owned indirectly by the Japanese government though for this reason as the railways are seen as a social service. This is also the case with the unprofitable or less profitable lines that are dubbed "third sector" that are subsidised by local councils or communities. Some of these "third sector" lines are actually turning profits now - the most famous of all is in Wakayama with Tama, the railway cat. Also, you really should consider more than just the JR group - you have many, many large companies such as Nishitetsu (to use a profitable Kyushu company) that operate private railways alongside and sometimes competing with JR across Japan.



K_ said:


> There several possible alternative explanations. And I have put them forward here.
> One alternative explanation is that the market they operate in is different, they don't need yield management.
> But another alternative explanation is that they are simply not allowed to do yield management. I don't know how prices are regulated in Japan. I do know that SBB would like to charge rush hour commuters a lot more then they do know. They however are not allowed to do this. So they in stead are gradually increasing prices, and offering incentives to travel off peak by introducing discounted fares.


Railway culture in Japan is just so ingrained that they are seen as an intrinsic part of their culture, and they are largely proud of their railways. Prices are not increased as they don't need to be because railways make money. They make money because they have priced at the correct point for their market. The interesting thing is that the private railways are nearly universally cheaper than JR, yet the quality difference is not noticeable (and sometimes is superior in the case of Tokyu for example). 



K_ said:


> But isn't this exactly what we have now?


Since when? SJ operate the regional rail and no. No discounts. You can buy an expensive commuter 10-ride pass if you want, but it is not that cheap compared to even regular fares. The whole set up of the regional railways here is a nightmare. 



K_ said:


> I'll be in Sweden this summer. On a first class interrail pass...


Oh, please do share your impressions. Personally, I pity you as I have had nothing but miserable experiences on the rail system here.


----------



## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

MTR Express at Stockholm Central








(c)MTR 
source: https://twitter.com/mtrtunnelbanan/status/573417784832598016

That tweet also contained the twitterhandle of MTR Express: @MTRExpress
Still set to private though.


----------



## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Very nice! The official traffic start is a few weeks from today. Thank you for sharing, Swede. 

I found an unseen visualisation of the Stadler Flirt EMU for MTR Express:









Source


----------



## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

I really wish SJ would go back to the old colorschemes they used the dem olden days. Anything's better than the washed-out grey they use now. Even the old brown with yellow markings used on the passenger cars. Or the orange used on the locos for much of the 20th century. It would stand out, having the trains be this colorscheme: 








/wiki


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*A railtrip Linköping-Åtvidaberg PHOTOS from TODAY*









*Departure Linköping station. Today at 12.32
*



















Y31 Interior. A very comfortable railbus









*Arrival Åtvidaberg station*








*The station building*





*Uncut Youtube onboard video* the whole trip took 32 min


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Is that mini section behind the glass wall first class?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Yes it is!

"1 Kl" is an abbreviation for "första klass" which translates to "First class".


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

AlexNL said:


> Yes it is!
> 
> "1 Kl" is an abbreviation for "första klass" which translates to "First class".


That's abit silly to have a section that small dedicated to first class on a rural train..


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Nexis said:


> That's abit silly to have a section that small dedicated to first class on a rural train..


Well I didnt see any difference at all between the 2nd and 1st class compartment, only that the seat were red in 1st class and that it's more expensive to sit there. 

This railbus carries about 20 passengers on average but it can take up to 120 people, if it was crowded maybe the 1st class ticket would make sense.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

I wouldn't mind paying more for first if they served food. Does the train have wifi?


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> They make money because they have priced at the correct point for their market.


you are actually repeating my argument here. It's the market...

What if a railway finds itself in a market where there is no single price point that would allow it to make a profit, but where with differentiated prices I can make a profit....


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Train journey on the Bothnia line


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Motala, railway station*

*Motala*-The rebuilt railway station. Now also commutertrains stop here. There are direct trains to Örebro, Gävle and Norrköping. 


















*Commutertrain* to Mjölby-Linköping-Norrköping









Now there is an underground passageway.









New double railway tracks. This used to be a single track line.










The railwaystation building. It was built in 1873.

















*The railwaystation building interior.*









A lot of freight trains pass by.









*Train schedule*









*Train to Örebro*





*Take the youtubetrain to Motala*


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

MTR Express commercial:






The first Stadler Flirt train had a debut in Stockholm on March 9th this year! The train was booked for a private trip to Nykvarn. The official service in line Stockholm-Gothenburg will start on March 21st.









Source

More information: *MTR Express rullade ut premiärtåget*


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

^^ NICE!!
By the way, it seems like there also was a "special" train between Gothenburg and Alvhem on this side of the country.

http://www.gp.se/ekonomi/1.2653630-nya-taget-till-stockholm-invigt
http://www.gp.se/gptv#LQZaSH-nYxJ4r-H12uVH3A


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

NordikNerd said:


> This railbus carries about 20 passengers on average but it can take up to 120 people, if it was crowded maybe the 1st class ticket would make sense.


An example of a propeller plane with under 100 seats, and first class:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ethiopian-Airlines/Bombardier-DHC-8-402-Q400/2469080/L


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Motala station yesterday*








*Motala station in the year 2000*

Can you see the difference between these photos? 
2 buildings were demolished.

Today the area around Motala station has become more open, with many new parking lots. 
I think the station area looks more empty and dull now, but it's more modern and convienent for commuters.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Depressing that they demolish buildings for car parks...


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

NordikNerd said:


> Can you see the difference between these photos?
> 2 buildings were demolished.
> 
> Today the area around Motala station has become more open, with many new parking lots.
> I think the station area looks more empty and dull now, but it's more modern and convienent for commuters.


What was the function of these 2 buildings when built?
What was their function last time they had any?


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

chornedsnorkack said:


> What was the function of these 2 buildings when built?
> What was their function last time they had any?


The building far ahead was a mill. It was demolished in march 2001.









The building closer to the right was some kind of freight office.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Those MTR Express ads are pretty cool.

The others:


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Railtrip Linköping-Motala-Åtvidaberg TODAY !!*

Today I bought a car in Motala and visited my mother in Åtvidaberg so I traveled from Linköping to Motala with the commuter train and then with the railbus Åtvidaberg-Linköping. 










*Incoming SJ X2000 from Stockholm at Linköping railway station.*










*Commutertrain from Norrköping arrives in Linköping*









*In the weekends when there are few passengers the old X10´s are in service.*









*Onboard the commutertrain to Motala*









*The train changes direction in Mjölby*









*Skänninge pop. 4000 has a commutertrain station*

















*Final destination Motala railway station.*









*The yellow wooden railway station building in Åtvidaberg*









*Not many travellers inside the railway station *









*The foot of the table is "railway-esque"*









*The railbus Y31 heading for Linköping has arrived at Åtvidaberg railway station*


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

In Swedish about fourtracking most of the line between Malmö and Lund:


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## Adde (May 8, 2011)

NordikNerd said:


> Today the area around Motala station has become more open, with many new parking lots.
> I think the station area looks more empty and dull now, but it's more modern and convienent for commuters.


Was it only for making place for car parks? They also built double tracks, weren't any of the buildings in the way for that?


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Adde said:


> Was it only for making place for car parks? They also built double tracks, weren't any of the buildings in the way for that?


There are two new big parking lots at Motala station. One building was demolished when the new station was built, a goods office of some kind. I also think some houses along the line were expropriated.

There are of course more people at the station now, than there used to be.


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## gincan (Feb 1, 2006)

Svartmetall said:


> Depressing that they demolish buildings for car parks...


Well, in this case it was to incentivize taking the train over driving even if that means driving to and from the train station.

Maybe they should have built a bicycle garage to, since Motala is not that big in the first place.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

gincan said:


> Well, in this case it was to incentivize taking the train over driving even if that means driving to and from the train station.
> 
> Maybe they should have built a bicycle garage to, since Motala is not that big in the first place.


I think available free parking space is an important factor if you want to change the way people commute. No place to park means people will travel all the way by car.










Before the new railway station was built there were about 30 parking spots close to the station.








The old goods storage was demolished and the space generated a 100 new parkings spots. South of the station there are another 120 new parking spots.
In all a 220 new spots to park cars on. Not a very pleasant sight seeing all these cars, but it is good for the environment and the railway. 

Tearing down old goods storages in railway station areas is common nowadays. The same thing happend in Linköping, where they also demolished the goods storage. 
That space is still empty, I wonder what they are planning to build there.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Free parking is certainly not needed. Unless! Unless parking is free elsewhere. Which I guess it is all over the place in Motala. In that case, yes it might help. What would probably help more is building dense urbanity on those lots. Having an old goods warehouse? yeah, that wouldn't help get travelers for the railway at all.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Swede said:


> Free parking is certainly not needed. Unless! Unless parking is free elsewhere. Which I guess it is all over the place in Motala. In that case, yes it might help. What would probably help more is building dense urbanity on those lots. Having an old goods warehouse? yeah, that wouldn't help get travelers for the railway at all.


If these parking spots were charged for, less people would use them. Especially the commuters because they park their cars there the whole day. That additional cost would deter them from taking the train. 

If you count the whole station area and the parkinglot at the swimming hall closeby you have around 300 parking spots. I think that is enough for this part of town. Building dense urbanity on those lots ? I dont think so. Motala is not a development area with increasing prices of real estate. Overall Motala is a very open city with few densely populated areas. The cost of land is cheap compared to Linköping for ex. 









Motala is a town where it´s easy to park, here at the swimminghall parking is free, but on the central square it costs.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Oh come on. The furthest you would really need to cycle within the town is 4km. If you cannot cycle 4km then you're just a lazy idiot who probably wouldn't take the train anyway as it means leaving your car. Parking is not required for people to take the train, otherwise every Japanese station (where people frequently bike for 4km or so in parts of the metropolitan areas) would be unsuccessful unless they had oodles of free parking nearby.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Svartmetall said:


> Oh come on. The furthest you would really need to cycle within the town is 4km. If you cannot cycle 4km then you're just a lazy idiot who probably wouldn't take the train anyway as it means leaving your car.


Not many people would bicycle to the station when its cold, raining or snowing. They would rather go by car. Motala has a lot of free space for parkingspots, because the cost of land is low. There is no high demand for new building plots to build houses on. Also few commuters have the time to bicycle up to 4km early in the morning. 

It's all about the costs. 300 free parking spots at the Linköping station would never happen, because land is too expensive here. So the commuters in Linköping dont take the car to the station, but on the other hand Linköping is usually the destination where the commuters get off the train.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

The new parking is all on ground level. And the demolished goods storage was one story too. Why was it demolished? Only the thickness of the walls was taking up space - they could have used the wide interior and wide gates to park indoors.
Indeed, they might have built a roofed gallery between the goods/parking building and station... but did not.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

chornedsnorkack said:


> The new parking is all on ground level. And the demolished goods storage was one story too. Why was it demolished?


I think the main reason to the demolishion was that the building was not in use for the railway anymore. Maybe some private company rented it as a storage. When the new commuter station was built the old goods storage was expropriated to create space for parking. Many stations in smaller cities lost staff in the later years. The ticket sales office at Motala station closed in 1999 or so, also I dont think that any goods are unloaded at the station anymore. So why keep the building ? Sure it adds some railway-esque athmospeare to the area, but times are changing and function goes before aesthetics .



Svartmetall said:


> Parking is not required for people to take the train, otherwise every Japanese station (where people frequently bike for 4km or so in parts of the metropolitan areas) would be unsuccessful unless they had oodles of free parking nearby.


So the japanese are frequent bicyclists because they are more environmental friendly? I think it has to do with the lack of parkingspace due to the stellar price of land. I have read that in some japanese cities you need to confirm that you have a parkingspot before you are allowed to buy a car.


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## chornedsnorkack (Mar 13, 2009)

NordikNerd said:


> I think the main reason to the demolishion was that the building was not in use for the railway anymore. Maybe some private company rented it as a storage. When the new commuter station was built the old goods storage was expropriated to create space for parking. Many stations in smaller cities lost staff in the later years. The ticket sales office at Motala station closed in 1999 or so, also I dont think that any goods are unloaded at the station anymore. So why keep the building ? Sure it adds some railway-esque athmospeare to the area, but times are changing and function goes before aesthetics.


Function? Roofed space, free of obstructing walls and internal supports over appreciable width. Why not use it for parking?


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## skyshakernowlive (May 12, 2015)

Sweden is to spread out for such a rail network, even urban centers such as Stockholm are tiny.

But surely a left wing country such as Sweden can maintain a rail network? 

I think this is the drawback one has to deal with when living in such a country. Villages spread out far aren't profitable.


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## Irfan Aliu (May 13, 2015)

:cheers:


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

skyshakernowlive said:


> Sweden is to spread out for such a rail network, even urban centers such as Stockholm are tiny.
> 
> But surely a left wing country such as Sweden can maintain a rail network?
> 
> I think this is the drawback one has to deal with when living in such a country. Villages spread out far aren't profitable.












Sweden has a very low pop density only 20 inhabitants/km² (Denmark has 130 inhabitants/km²) not only the north of Sweden is sparsely populated but also areas in south Sweden. 
The railway Linköping-Kalmar runs through such an rural area with few cities. This line has had a lot of trouble recently with cancelled trains and travellers dont consider this railway to be reliable. 
I doubt that this railway will be in service in the future.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

skyshakernowlive said:


> Sweden is to spread out for such a rail network, even urban centers such as Stockholm are tiny.


How spread out Sweden is is matched by how spread out the network is. Stockholm, tiny? the metro is at over 2M and growing fast. Most of the people live in the southern third of Sweden and most live in the cities along the rail lines. 



skyshakernowlive said:


> But surely a left wing country such as Sweden can maintain a rail network?


Going mostly in a rightist direction for many years tho. And maintaining decent infrastructure isn't right or left anyway - it's just plain common sense. Which has been lacking in how the maintenance has been structured.



skyshakernowlive said:


> I think this is the drawback one has to deal with when living in such a country. Villages spread out far aren't profitable.


Low density is indeed something that makes for more expensive infrastructure per person.
btw - there are few real villages left. Most were split up in the 17-1800s to effectivize farming.


Also, dude, chill! What's with all the troll-like posts all over the place?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article20788313.ab

Oops, X2000 trains splits in half when leaving the station in Norrköping.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)




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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

First freight train from Västervik to Linköping since 2013 Photo from 17.18 today.









*The loco is the MZ Diesel a former DSB-loco.*








This cargo consists of imported garbage from England going to Västerås for combustion


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## digimobileco (Jun 2, 2015)

thats greaatttt


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

Faster train Stockholm-Oslo cancelled. 

Svenskene stanser hurtigtog mellom Stockholm og Oslo
SJ stoppar satsningen på snabbtåg till Oslo


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## Stainless (Jun 7, 2009)

NordikNerd said:


> This cargo consists of imported garbage from England going to Västerås for combustion


I didn't know we sold our rubbish like this.


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## thrasher115 (Apr 5, 2007)

Stainless said:


> I didn't know we sold our rubbish like this.


it's like Sim City..garbage exported for money..huhu


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

New article about Hallandsås Tunnel:
http://www.railstaff.uk/2015/06/02/hallandsås-tunnel-23-years-in-the-making/


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...r-swedish-high-speed-project.html?channel=523
> 
> *Consultants chosen for Swedish high-speed project*
> Friday, June 05, 2015
> ...





> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...et-reach-stockholm-oslo-deal.html?channel=524
> 
> *SJ and Jernbaneverket reach Stockholm - Oslo deal*
> Friday, June 05, 2015
> ...


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Veolia "Snälltåget"*

Veolia is the only non state train operator on the Stockholm-Malmö line.

















Their trains consist of a Siemens built loco called Taurus, there are a total of 7 of them in Sweden run by the haulage provider Hectorrail. 

















Veolia uses old repainted 1960's SJ passenger coaches. From april-sept there is a service to Berlin, the most distant destination with a direct train from Sweden, a 4 hour ferry is included.









*Y31 Railbus in Hjulsbro, Linköping*









*Y2 Railbus in Hackefors, Linköping*


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

Will they switch to the knuckle coupler for Freight operations?


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

Nexis said:


> Will they switch to the knuckle coupler for Freight operations?


I dont think such a coupler exists on swedish trains, at least not on standard gauge trains. I have seen a similar coupler on narrow gauge 891mm trains.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

:jax: said:


> Faster train Stockholm-Oslo cancelled.
> 
> Svenskene stanser hurtigtog mellom Stockholm og Oslo
> SJ stoppar satsningen på snabbtåg till Oslo


The express train service Stockholm-Oslo is planned to start this August.

_We are pleased that the high-speed train service between Oslo and Stockholm is now in place. The danger of postponement of the offer is thus gone. We have had good and constructive talks with the Rail Administration, SJ and Swedish Näringsdepartementet to find a solution in a demanding situation. Jernbaneverket has concluded that it is possible to delay maintenance work on Kongsvingerbanen at least two years. SJ can from August this year offering travelers a greatly improved train service between the two capitals, says Transport Minister Ketil Solvik-Olsen.

The improved train services means that there will be three daily departures in each direction instead of two. Travel time will be reduced from about six to about four and a half hours because of new trains and fewer stops along the way.


Jernbaneverket has come up with a solution which postpones the KL-works on Kongsvingerbanen at least two years. The funds will be used for maintaining the rail network.

- It is important that National Rail and train operators talk well before catenary plants at Kongsvingerbanen eventually will be replaced. It is essential to find solutions that minimize the inconvenience to travelers, says the minister of transport.

Jernbaneverket will now plan a renovation of overhead lines on other railways. This means that efforts to renew overhead lines can overcome other stretches._

https://www.regjeringen.no/nb/aktue...holm-starter-som-planlagt-i-august/id2415220/


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

Nexis said:


> Will they switch to the knuckle coupler for Freight operations?


Doubt it, at least not now, since it would them to replace a lot of hardware. Maybe when they decide to replace the whole fleet when they get too old. 
There is however one line that use SA3 couplers here in Sweden, which is the Malmbanan on the iron ore trains, and they do it to increase the total load of the trains, since buffer and chain isn't strong enough.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

The mighty TMZ Loco heading for Västerås, has to change direction in Linköping.








The engine is a General Motors EMD diesel. This type of loco was common in both passenger and freight trains by the DSB in Denmark in the 1970-90's. You rarely see diesel-locos like these in Sweden, most stretches without catenary use railbuses like the Y2 or Y31, while the T44 loco is used for freight hauling.









The TMZ dieseltrain at a railway crossing in Hjulsbro, southern Linköping.









A Regina train arrives in Linköping.









_Snälltåget_ by Hectorrail


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## rasv (Jun 18, 2015)

interesting designs on the trains, I don't think I'd ever seen Swedish trains before!


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

> *Stadler to supply double-deck EMUs to Sweden*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


New double decker trains soon on swedish tracks. Are the X40's already outdated ?


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## hammersklavier (Jan 29, 2010)

NordikNerd said:


> Sweden has a very low pop density only 20 inhabitants/km² (Denmark has 130 inhabitants/km²) not only the north of Sweden is sparsely populated but also areas in south Sweden.
> The railway Linköping-Kalmar runs through such an rural area with few cities. This line has had a lot of trouble recently with cancelled trains and travellers dont consider this railway to be reliable.
> I doubt that this railway will be in service in the future.


Why on earth is the service that is clearly more circuitous _with a transfer_ *faster*? hno:


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

hammersklavier said:


> Why on earth is the service that is clearly more circuitous _with a transfer_ *faster*? hno:











Well, my dear american friend, the railway to the east looks like this at some streches. The service is slow.

I estimate the speed to sometimes be as low as 40km/h. It's a slow and tortous route. 

There have been a lot of cancelled trains here and the service is not that reliable, so people tend to avoid it in favor of the main highspeed line.









Y2 train on the slow line "Stångådalsbanan"










The fast option is the X2000 on the main line Stockholm-Malmö.
The X2000 trainset was tested on US-tracks, it was a supposed alternative to the Acela in the early 1990's.


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

^^ It uses faster trains running on better tracks?
I have driven past the "direct" track and it's state is really bad, and also not electrified, thus a slower speed. Where as the circuitous route use SJ 2000 and Öresundståg trains which run on better maintained tracks (Södra Stambanan and Kust- till kustbanan).
Higher speed wins.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

loefet said:


> ^^ It uses faster trains running on better tracks?
> I have driven past the "direct" track and it's state is really bad, and also not electrified, thus a slower speed. Where as the circuitous route use SJ 2000 and Öresundståg trains which run on better maintained tracks (Södra Stambanan and Kust- till kustbanan).
> Higher speed wins.


Yes, but in this case speed wins with only 12 minutes. Add to that a change in Alvesta. I you have luggage I wouldnt mind those extra 12 minutes. The Stångådal-line is very scenic and really a good alternative. I urge people to pick that option instead of the X2000, if conditions dont improve soon this railway from Linköping to Kalmar may be shut down for ever.


























Snälltåget by Hectorrail with the Taurus loco.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Some more pictures of Citybanan project (Stockholm):

The overground part of Station City/Stockholm City Station or Stockholm Conintental Hotel (arch.: 3XN)









Source

The undeground part of Stockholm City Station, Vasagatan









Source









Source

Railway tracks being adjoined









Source

A 1.4 km long estacade "Älvsjöbågen" (the name was chosen during a public competition - a symbolic table with a nickname of this railway section together with the name of the person whose proposal won was mounted on the strcture), in Älvsjö









Source


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## hammersklavier (Jan 29, 2010)

loefet said:


> ^^ It uses faster trains running on better tracks?
> I have driven past the "direct" track and it's state is really bad, and also not electrified, thus a slower speed. Where as the circuitous route use SJ 2000 and Öresundståg trains which run on better maintained tracks (Södra Stambanan and Kust- till kustbanan).
> Higher speed wins.


And track quality regulates speed. Still, it's impressive that the track quality is so bad that a route with two major time penalties is _still_ twelve minutes faster. :nuts:


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm reading that more money has been allocated for railway repairs and maintenance. Longer term that should lead to a more reliable service.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Citybanan news should be restricted to the Stockholm Public Transport thread. Citybanan is only going to be used for the commuter rail, which is urban transport.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Hej! I'll be visting Stockholm next week, I'm planning to buy an SL Access Card and load a 7 day travelcard onto it. I'm wondering if this allows me to take SJ trains that stop in the Stockholm area (if there are any that make more stops that just Stockholm C)?


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

AlexNL said:


> Hej! I'll be visting Stockholm next week, I'm planning to buy an SL Access Card and load a 7 day travelcard onto it. I'm wondering if this allows me to take SJ trains that stop in the Stockholm area (if there are any that make more stops that just Stockholm C)?


It does not. Those are only valid on SL trains.
Most (all?) SJ (and other operators) regional and intercity trains do stop at more places in the SL area. Södertälje Syd, Flemingsberg, Sunbyberg and Arlanda are such stations (Arlanda SL-trains cost extra tho).


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

*Nässjö Central station, Jönköping County*:

Nässjö C by Steffen Haase, on Flickr


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

dj4life said:


> *Nässjö Central station, Jönköping County*:


This is an odd train, the Taurus loco is modern, but the passenger coaches are definately outdated, they're from the 1960's. Compare them to the sleek X2000 coaches to the left.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Two weeks ago, I visited Stockholm. While I wasn't there to do trainspotting, I did find some time to snap a few pictures:









An SJ Snabbtåg (Swedish for 'fast train') of the SJ3000 type is ready for depart from Stockholm Central. While the train was parked at the platform for a long time, the doors remained closed up until a few minutes prior to departure. Once the doors opened, it took several minutes for all passengers to board the train. The high step between platform and train definitely did not help with getting luggage on board the train.









The Igelsta viaduct is among the tallest railway bridges of Sweden, easuring over 2 kilometers in length and standing at a whopping 48 meters tall. At the end of the viaduct one can find Södertälje Syd, the most important station for the city of Södertälje. The Igelsta bridge opened in 1995, which freed up paths on the classical route between Flemingsberg and Järna.









This Göteborg-bound SJ Snabbtåg is one of the trains that stops at the earlier mentioned station of Södertälje Syd. The X2000 trains form the backbone of SJ's long distance traffic, in the nineties Kalmar (later ABB, nowadays Bombardier) built as much as 43 of these units.









Long distance rail traffic in Sweden has been fully liberalised. As a consequence, other companies (such as Blå Tåget) try to get a piece of the pie on SJ's most profitable route.

Since March 2015 there is a new operator between Stockholm and Göteborg: the Hong Kong-based MTR tries to gain some marketshare under the name of MTR Express. For this purpose, they have ordered 6 FLIRT electrical units from Stadler of Switzerland. The MTR Express also calls at Södertälje Syd, but only to pick up or set down passengers. Traveling between Stockholm C and Södertälje by MTR is not possible.

(Pictures don't do justice to the beauty that this train truly is!)









This train, heading towards Nyköping and Norrköping, is operated by SJ Regional; a division of SJ that runs trains in the wider region around Stockholm. The black Rc6 locomotive (built by ASEA, now Bombardier) are one of the workhorses of SJ Regional.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

NordikNerd said:


> This is an odd train, the Taurus loco is modern, but the passenger coaches are definately outdated, they're from the 1960's. Compare them to the sleek X2000 coaches to the left.


Isn't it some kind of a retro train?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

dj4life said:


> Isn't it some kind of a retro train?


It could be the Veolia-operated Snälltåget, which runs between Malmö and Stockholm.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

AlexNL said:


> It could be the Veolia-operated Snalltåget, which runs between Malmö and Stockholm.


It may well be Snälltåget.  Thank you for a great set of pictures from your visit in Stockholm.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Some pictures of the Swedish trains:

Intercity train: X74/Stadler Flirt (MTR Express) 

X74 001 in Gothenburg









Source









Source


Intercity train: X55/SJ 3000/Bombardier Regina (SJ AB)

X55 3352 in Umeå









Source

Regional train: X50-X54/Bombardier Regina (operators: X50 - SJ AB, Trafik i Mälardalen (TM), Västtrafik AB, X-trafik; X51 - Tåg i Bergslagen, X-trafik; X52 - Transitio, Upplands Lokaltrafik (UL), X-trafik, Värmlandstrafik, Tåg i Bergslagen, Norrtåg; X53 - Västtrafik, Värmlandstrafik; X54 - Tåg i Bergslagen) 

Norrtåg X52 9042 in Sundsvall









Source

Västtrafik/SJ X52 9080 (a modified version of the regional train designed for a longer distance intercity service) in Gothenburg









Source

Öresund regional train: X32K/Öresundståg (Öresundståg AB)

X32K 4344 in Svågertorp (Malmö Syd)









Source

Mälardalen regional train: X40/Alstom Coradia (SJ AB)

A combination of X40 3319 (three cars) and X40 3339 (two cars) in Västerås 









Source

Stockholm commuter train: X60/X60A/Alstom Coradia Nordic (SL AB)









Source

Commuter trains: X61/X62/Coradia Nordic (Västtrafik AB, Skånetrafiken AB, Östgötatrafiken/Jönköpings länstrafik AB, Norrtåg AB, Transitio)

Västtrafik X61 61409 in Gothenburg









Source

Skånetrafiken X61 010 Malmö









Source

Östgötatrafiken X61 61301 Norrköping









Source

Railbuses: Y31/Y32/Bombardier Itino (Krösatågen, Tåg i Bergslagen, Kalmar Länstrafik (Kustpilen), etc.) 

Östgötatrafiken Y31 1425 in Hultsfred









Source

Jönköpings Länstrafik Y31 1405 in Hultsfred









Source

More information and pictures of the rolling stock in Sweden can be found in a dedicated website: http://www.jarnvag.net.


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

My wife, her parents and I went to Uppsala yesterday. I took a quite extensive video showing Stockholm Centralstation, Uppsala Centralstation (which is really quite cool) and the journey leaving Stockholm Centralstation (until Solna station, so you get to see the new national stadium) and into Uppsala centrum (from the edge of Uppsala). 









Stockholm Centralstation.














Our train. Was 89kr per person one way. 








Departure.







Uppsala Centralstation.


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## hammersklavier (Jan 29, 2010)

I've always wondered why -- other than our hardy little toasters -- Sweden's never really sold their Rc series abroad.


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## hammersklavier (Jan 29, 2010)

K_ said:


> But in an area devoid of people aquiring the needed land to build it at ground level is much cheaper. An elevated railway is a lot more expensive to build, a cost that can be ofset by the fact that you don't need to acquire that much land. But that only applies in densily populated areas.


It also depends on terrain and desired line geometry. An Oslo-Stockholm HSR would have to go through mountains, and that by itself will necessitate tunnels and viaducts.


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

hammersklavier said:


> It also depends on terrain and desired line geometry. An Oslo-Stockholm HSR would have to go through mountains, and that by itself will necessitate tunnels and viaducts.


The area between Oslo and Stockholm isn't that mountainous. 

And I think that a Oslo - Göteborg HSR combined with a Stockholm - Göteborg HSR would be a better investment.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

K_ said:


> The area between Oslo and Stockholm isn't that mountainous.
> 
> And I think that a Oslo - Göteborg HSR combined with a Stockholm - Göteborg HSR would be a better investment.


I like the idea of a Stockholm-Oslo HSL, but I seriously doubt it'll happen any time soon. Stockholm-Göteborg will happen first and a Oslo-Göteborg(-Köbenhavn) one will, is my prediction, happen years and years ahead of a direct Oslo-Stockholm one. 
As the non-HSL line from Malmö to Oslo is modernised, double tracked and straightened it'll boost traffic quite a bit. I believe as time goes traffic will be going so high that the need for a HSL to relieve congestion on the old lines will be clear.


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

Not mountainous at all. It got a short hilly (and largely uninhabited and very picturesque) section around the border, thereafter it is undulating, and finally flat along Mälaren. 

Cities as a rule grow along the coast, this is where you find large populations, and the West Coast goes fairly straight NNW-SSE. It all makes Gothenburg placed quite hubby relative to Oslo-Stockholm, Stockholm-Malmö, and Malmö-Oslo. For trains that want to cut corners to avoid Gothenburg, Jönköping could be a Gothenburg-free alternative: Stockholm-Jönköping-Halmstad-Malmö and Oslo-Trollhättan-Jönköping-Stockholm.


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

Speaking of HSR, then Trafikverket just posted this:






Also available in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0eKtNtoIfU


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## hammersklavier (Jan 29, 2010)

K_ said:


> The area between Oslo and Stockholm isn't that mountainous.
> 
> And I think that a Oslo - Göteborg HSR combined with a Stockholm - Göteborg HSR would be a better investment.


Neither are the Appalachians (and these mountains are part of the same orogeny, from long, long ago). But the thing is that the track and grade geometry specifications of HSR, especially modern HSR, pretty much require engineering structures even in rolling terrain.

I agree, by the way, that HSR needs to first be provided internally before it can be externally. (Though the Scandinavian language barriers are quite limited and may therefore open larger international markets.)


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

hammersklavier said:


> Neither are the Appalachians (and these mountains are part of the same orogeny, from long, long ago). But the thing is that the track and grade geometry specifications of HSR, especially modern HSR, pretty much require engineering structures even in rolling terrain.


Agreed!



hammersklavier said:


> I agree, by the way, that HSR needs to first be provided internally before it can be externally. (Though the Scandinavian language barriers are quite limited and may therefore open larger international markets.)


The borders aren't important at all here, really. The deciding factor is/should be expected passenger numbers (and the language barrier is very low since we all speak English as well anyway) and those are clearly higher for Gothenburg than for Oslo from Stockholm. However, that's based on travel patterns that have been created with current and past infra - all far more focused on the Gothenburg connect. Still, build it where there's a need and where the future need is the most clear. As a Stockholmer I want the Olso connection but I also see that the Copenhagen-Gothenburg-Oslo line (aka the west coast line) has more potential that's easier to unlock.


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

They are low enough that there are relatively few tunnels, mostly cut wedges in the hills to make straight and level motorways, and in principle rail, but the rail connections were made over a century ago and are neither straight nor level.

Of course the operative word is relative. Most routes to Oslo from Sweden would pass a handful tunnels on the way. But it is flat compared to e.g. a HSR route westward Oslo-Bergen which would be one long tunnel from leaving the Oslo region until the Bergen terminus. It would be a lot of lovely scenery to tunnel under, unlike today's overland train ride which is very scenic, but anything but high-speed. 

In my view new rail along Oslo-Gothenburg and Oslo-Karlstad would be well-suited for viaducts (in places much more than 5 meters above ground, I'd suspect), but I fear the locals might not agree. Oslo-Karlstad would be less of a worry because there would be very few locals, and I think viaducts are more nature friendly (plants and animals may migrate under the pillars), but towards more civilised areas near Gothenburg is bound to find some protester.

Borders will matter less in the future than now, and matters less now than in the past when they were iron curtains, economically speaking (and why the non-coastal border areas on both sides are economically depressed). 



If we ignored borders and geography for a moment and let us be ruled by the ruler:

*Gothenburg* is closer to *Copenhagen* and *Oslo* (230-250 km) than to *Stockholm*. *Gothenburg-Stockholm* and *Stockholm-Helsinki* are equidistant and practically on a straight line (400 km in both cases). *Bergen-Oslo* and *Oslo-Stockholm* are nearly equidistant (300 km/400 km) and practically on a straight line. *Malmö-Oslo* is equidistant to *Malmö-Stockholm* (500 km), *Malmö-Oslo-Trondheim* is nearly on a straight line and fairly equidistant (Trondheim is closer to Oslo at 400 km).

If in the future we were travelling at supersonic speed in perfectly straight levitating pneumatic tubes, it is fairly obvious where those tubes would go: *Hamburg-Copenmalmö-Stockholm*, *Aalborg-Gothenburg-Stockholm-Turku-Helsinki*, *Copenmalmö-Gothenburg-Oslo-Trondheim*, *Bergen-Oslo-Stockholm-Riga*. 

Of course we're not in such a future, and though e.g. Gothenburg is much closer to Copenhagen and Oslo than to Stockholm, the traffic between city #1 and #2 in Sweden is going to remain much larger than Gothenburg and the two foreign capitals.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Pågatåg (commuter train) at Malmö C station:

Malmö C by Håkan Dahlström, on Flickr


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Malmö C Nedre (Citytunneln):

Malmö C by Håkan Dahlström, on Flickr


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Triangeln station in Malmö (almost exactly 5 years after Citytunneln was innaugurated)

Triangeln station S Johan's chruch trees at rear by Malcolm Payne, on Flickr

Station Triangeln by Håkan Dahlström, on Flickr

Station Triangeln by Håkan Dahlström, on Flickr

Triangeln South Level Two by Mabry Campbell, on Flickr

Triangeln Malmö by Sanja Matonickin, on Flickr

Triangeln Station, Malmö by Kristian Ohlsson, on Flickr


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## Festin (May 21, 2010)

One of the longest projects in Swedish history are about to finish and not much are left to fix before the open ceremony in december. There will be a tunnel with higher capacity with 24 trains passing per hour the hallandsåsen with one track in each direction, compared today with 4 trains each hour and only one track to share above the tunnel. 










http://www.trafikverket.se/hallandsas


> /.../ Boka redan nu in den 8 december.
> 
> Efter att i 23 år arbetat och levt med ett av Sveriges mest utmanande infrastrukturprojekt är vi stolta över att få öppna Hallandsåstunneln.
> 
> Dubbelspåret ökar kapaciteten från fyra tåg per timme till 24, höjer den möjliga godsvikten avsevärt och reducerar störningarna på Västkustbanan. Hallandsåstunneln kommer att betyda mycket för resenärer och näringsliv, lokalt, regionalt och nationellt/.../


http://www.trafikverket.se/nara-dig...510/lagesrapport-projekt-hallandsas-vecka-41/
Status in tunnel works:
Checking details and installing minor system and components.



http://www.trafikverket.se/nara-dig...-Hallandsas/Nyheter/201509/provdrift-med-tag/

Öresundstrains have been tested in their maximum speed 180km/h with no problem.
Pågatåg have been tested in their maximum speed 160km/h with no problem. 
The tunnel itself are built for a maximum speed of 250km/h but the 200km/h is the maximum speed allowed for now.


The swedish trafikverket have recorded the trip from each direction in both tunnels and the videoclip is in normal playspeed so you may want to fastforward in the middle. But you can se at minut 3:50 for example how the train stops for a red signal inside the tunnel.

From Båstad to Förslöv:





From Förslöv to Båstad:





All seem to be ready for the opening in december. :cheers:


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## 8166UY (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks for sharing! So if I understand correctly it took 23 year? That's indeed quite some time. How long is the tunnel and how much did it cost? Must be impressive numbers if it was such a pain to build.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

8166UY said:


> Thanks for sharing! So if I understand correctly it took 23 year? That's indeed quite some time. How long is the tunnel and how much did it cost? Must be impressive numbers if it was such a pain to build.


It's a complicated story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallandsås_Tunnel

Swedish posters can probably provide additional details...

Talking about the tunnel what is already known about it's operational impact? 24 tph is a capacity, but how many are actually going to run there next year? Any previously non-existing services? How will it improve travel times?


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## Festin (May 21, 2010)

8166UY said:


> Thanks for sharing! So if I understand correctly it took 23 year? That's indeed quite some time. How long is the tunnel and how much did it cost? Must be impressive numbers if it was such a pain to build.


The project have been delayed because of wrong kind of drill and because of bad used chemical that had a negative impact on the enviroment, where poison was leaked.
The cost are estimated to land on 10,5 billion swedish kronor. That would be around ~1.1 billion euros.

It started in 1992 but got stopped on 1997 because of enviroment problems after which a third of the tunnel was opened. Between 1997-2003 the main focus was on "healing" the enviroment since they had used bad chemical product to stop water from flooding the tunnels. Between 2003 and 2005 they analized the terrain again for to continue working and in 2005 they started and after som changes in the type of drill it was finished last year. And since then works have been with laying the tracks.

The budget was 900 milion kronor before project started (divide with 9 to get in euros, ~).
But was raised to 1,2 billion kronor in 1992 and between 1992 and 2002 the state spent another 2.1 billion kronor on the project. 
With the new start in in 2003 the project got a new budget on 8,4 billion kronor for the period 2003-2015.
The total cost land on 10,5 billion swedish kronor but I am not sure on how the previous budgetplans should be added to this total cost.


http://www.trafikverket.se/nara-dig...an/Hallandsas/Byggnation/Tidplan-och-kostnad/



I also found this other link where they have posted the historical notes from the project with years from each period when something major happened:

http://www.trafikverket.se/nara-dig/Skane/projekt-i-skane-lan/Hallandsas/Bakgrund/Projekthistorik/


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## Festin (May 21, 2010)

Sunfuns said:


> It's a complicated story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallandsås_Tunnel
> 
> Swedish posters can probably provide additional details...
> 
> Talking about the tunnel what is already known about it's operational impact? 24 tph is a capacity, but how many are actually going to run there next year? Any previously non-existing services? How will it improve travel times?


Its a part of the west coast track and to increase capacity from Gothenburg to Malmo:










There will also be a possibility to increase the amount of freight train and double their capacity. Today you dont have many freight train taking that route and that is what will be most noticed. Between Helsingborg and Halmstad you will have two trains in each direction per hour. Then you will also have the SJ train from Guthenburg to Malmo that doesnt make stops at every station. And the old track used to be a bottleneck where trains had to stop and wait for eachother. And if one train was delayed it meant all train on that stretch could be delayed which will now be avoided. A trip from Gothenburg to Malmo will go 13 min faster now.

More people can also start working or study in cities on the other side of the ridge without the need to move.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Linköping Railway station- Yesterday*









*The sign says that construction of the highspeed railway to Stockholm is in progress
*

Linköping has several destinations for train travel. 

To the North there are straight connections to:

*Sala, Gävle* -X12 & X50 Regina 
*Stockholm* -X2000 express train & X40 regional doubledecker train.
*Motala, Norrköping* -X14 commuter train

















Bombardier Regina X50 changes direction in Linköping with a X12 behind.








X2000 heading north for Stockholm. An Y2 Kustpilen is in the background. Photo taken october 6th.

Southbound there are 4 destinations:

*Malmö/Copenhagen Österport *with X2000
*Kalmar, Västervik*- Y2 Kustpilen, Y31 Itino








X2000 bound for Malmö. Recently they have cut the hedge here, so this is a new photo angle of the trains.









X2000 with final destination Copenhagen leaving Linköping at 16:01 yesterday. This is the only international destination from Linköping.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

NordikNerd said:


> *The sign says that construction of the highspeed railway to Stockholm is in progress
> *


Perhaps, just some investigations of the geophysical conditions are ongoing. The construction process of the first high-speed railway line between Järna (Stockholm county) and Linköping (Ostlänken) is scheduled to start in year 2018. While many sections of the future HSR network are in the planning stage, negotiations with possible developers continue.
Sweden plans, plans, plans.. and plans, but, for example, the construction work of some HSR lines connecting the major urban areas in neighbouring Denmark is ongoin. Ok, the speed standard is a bit lower, but still, there is visible progress.


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Trainspotting at Jonsered station which is close to Gothenburg:


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## dj4life (Oct 22, 2009)

Triangeln station in Malmö:


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## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

wastedrepublic said:


> I agree that the ID checks are necessary at this point, but the arrangement with train switching at Kastrup is imo not the best way to deal with it.
> 
> I was thinking that they could dedicate a platform at København H to Sweden-bound trains, and check ID:s when you enter the platform. Don't stop at Ørestad and Tårnby, and do the same platform access-check at Kastrup. This wouldn't delay the trains, only the time (slightly) it takes to go down to the platform. Of course the trains between Helsingør and København H need to be different from the Sweden-bound ones, but that's imo a minor problem? Or maybe I'm just delusional now thanks to christmas.


Certainly they should be able to make a platform sort of like a airport arrival section; you come into a certain platform and you need to show ID to be able to leave. 

I suppose they don't have this capacity since normally there isn't any ID requirements for travel between Denmark and Sweden. 

Best thing would be if Denmark sealed of the border with Germany. Have ID checks and whatnot down there. 
Certainly they stand to lose less money there than closing the Copenhagen/Malmö-route?


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## wastedrepublic (Apr 22, 2010)

AlexNL said:


> Given that SJ is cancelling all trains to and from Denmark, I guess it's not possible to do checks in a way like you propose. This might have to do with capacity at København H?


Oh I forgot to mention I was mainly worried about Öresundstågen. SJ cancelled saying they don't have time to check passports when people enter the train because of the short turnaround time at København H.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

On the Øresundståg website, I found this:


> As of 4 January 2016 the Swedish government are mandating rail, bus and ferry operators to carry out ID controls for all passengers travelling to Sweden. This affects you who will be crossing the Öresund Bridge.
> 
> Travelling from Denmark to Sweden
> The ID controls take place at Copenhagen Airport. *All Öresund trains bound for Sweden start at Copenhagen Airport*. To get there from other stations in Denmark, you can use other trains, Metro or city bus. Please visit www.rejseplanen.dk for alternative transportation to Copenhagen Airport.


:/


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

How significant is a population of daily cross-border commuters and is it known what percentage of them use public transport for it? If I remember correctly the bridge is very expensive for private cars, or is there maybe a monthly/yearly pass I'm not aware off?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

There is a price plan for commuters but it is not very cheap either.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Signal failure again*









There have been a number of signal failures on the southern main line recently resulting in hour long delays.
Today it there was another one.










Train 526 towards Stockholm C was delayed by 1 hour 42 minutes.
















Track 3 at Linkoping station has been extensively used by the X2000 in December due to the arrival of several delayed X2000's at the same time.









This sign will soon be in rememberance. 









An X40 arrives at the final station.








A worn X2000


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## K_ (Jan 5, 2010)

1772 said:


> Bothersome, but necessary.


I wonder why it's necessary. What will be achieved? 
All those refugees want is to say "I want asylum" to the first Swedish official they encounter. What changes when you make them do this already in Kastrup?


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## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

K_ said:


> I wonder why it's necessary. What will be achieved?
> All those refugees want is to say "I want asylum" to the first Swedish official they encounter. What changes when you make them do this already in Kastrup?


These migrants can easily be collected and not let roam free which has happened already.


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## Anders.o93 (Feb 10, 2015)

K_ said:


> I wonder why it's necessary. What will be achieved?
> All those refugees want is to say "I want asylum" to the first Swedish official they encounter. What changes when you make them do this already in Kastrup?


Yes, They could do that at Hyllie station, but they can't do that at Kastrup. Do they not have a passport, they will not get onboard the train, and they can't seek asylum in Sweden. They must be on Swedish territory to be able to seek asylum in Sweden.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*The Winter cold stops trains in the north*

The severe cold has led to consequences for the rail traffic. The trains between Boden-Kiruna-Narvik have been canceled.

Yesterday Nattavaara had -42 °C so six passengertrains were canceled between Boden and Narvik. No replacement buses were offered.








The reason is mainly the risk of ice formation in the brake system.
It's too cold actually. If something happens with a train and it stops in the middle of the forest - then it quickly becomes a dangerous situation, says Lars Hedstrom, press officer at the Swedish Transport Administration in the Northern Region.









Meanwhile Linköping had -14 C yesterday, January 7th


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

So there's -42 up there but just last week it got up to -1 at the north pole. Weird winter.


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

NordikNerd said:


> The severe cold has led to consequences for the rail traffic. The trains between Boden-Kiruna-Narvik have been canceled.
> 
> Yesterday Nattavaara had -42 °C so six passengertrains were canceled between Boden and Narvik. No replacement buses were offered.


Sad to hear that they don't have the equipment to deal with the cold. MTAB on the other hand most likely run as normal with their IORE trains.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

loefet said:


> Sad to hear that they don't have the equipment to deal with the cold. MTAB on the other hand most likely run as normal with their IORE trains.


At those temperatures there is a higher risk of malfunction and you dont want to risk the passenger's security. If a train breaks down in the middle of nowhere in the woods at -42 C it's going to be dangerous, remember that in the north the railway goes through vast areas were there are no nearby roads, so how are they going to arrange shelter for the evacuated passengers ?


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

^^ As I wrote, sad to see that they don't have the equipment to deal with the extreme temperatures. With that I mean that they don't run rolling-stock that is capable to run at those temperatures without troubles. Sure it may be more expensive to buy, but is it really better to shut down the service for those who depend on it?
It would be common sense to run such trains in those regions where extremely low temperatures are commonplace (sure not -40°C, but below -30°C happens almost every year).

Don't for instance chinese rail companies market trains made for adverse weather conditions?


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

All trains have been designed for specific circumstances and operating environments. Trains operating in the Nordics have been 'winterised' in a way which is greatly different from how trains that operate in say, Italy, are prepared for winter. This, of course, isn't free.

A temperature range is specified in which the rolling stock should be able to function. In Sweden, they might say "We want our trains to work between -35 °C and +30 °C" while in Italy they might say "We want our trains to work between -20 °C and +45 °C". The usual climate is taken into account for this.

If trains have to work with temperatures as low as -42 °C, some things will probably have to be changed - and this comes with a price tag. If temperatures this low are very uncommon (happens less than once a year on average), then it is not really an economical decision to prepare trains for this anyway.

By the way: it does not mean that the train by definition can't withstand temperatures of -42 °C, but as this temperature falls out of the design range they can't guarantee it either. So, they cancel it and wait until it gets warmer. You wouldn't drive a standard car (like a Ford Fiesta) in those temperatures either, would you?


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## Ingenioren (Jan 18, 2008)

NordikNerd said:


> six passengertrains were canceled between Boden and Narvik. No replacement buses were offered.


This is a strange way to treat passengers, no? I mean i am used to Nsb and for all their flaws they always provide alternative transport with bus or even taxi.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

Not providing any alternative transporation is bad, indeed. Maybe the bus companies simply refused to run, because their buses would also have to travel through areas with outside temperatures of -40 ºC for which they were not built?


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

^That sounds like it's the explanation. They wouldn't want their buses to get stuck in snow when it's -30 and dozens of km to the nearest town just like SJ doesn't want that for it's trains.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*A railway station in 1970*









In 1970 the trains were brown. The D-loco pulled most passengertrains on the
electrified lines. This train is bound for Göteborg.










The more modern and relatively new thyristor loco Rc1. It was introduced in 1967, about 20 locos were in service at this time so they were not that common yet.









The expresstrain to Göteborg and a Y6 railbus


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ervices-to-resume-next-month.html?channel=524
> 
> *Stockholm - Copenhagen SJ services to resume*
> Thursday, February 04, 2016
> ...


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## Klausenburg (Jul 25, 2007)

How does MTR Express performs between Stockholm and Gothenburg ? What ridership it has ? How much it changed travel habits, and so on ?


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Afaik it hasn't changed travel habits. 
From the Swedish wiki-page (my translation, feel free to set up an English wiki page with it):


MTR Express started service on the 21st of March 2015. MTR Express runs trains of the model X74, between Stockholm and Gothenburg, with a maximum speed of 200 km/h (thus matching the former state monopoly company SJ's X2 trains). X74 is made by the Swiss Stadler Rail and MTR has ordered 6 such trains. (are they all delivered by now?)

All services make intermediary stops at Skövde and Herrljunga, some also and Södertälje South.

MTR Express has a total of 90 departures per week. The company says they havea customer satisfaction of 92 percent and a on-time record which is 12 percentage points higher than SJ's equivalent service. One of the reasons is that MTR Express is that the SJ trains on that service have 6 times more vehicle errors. The MTR Express on-time record is said to be as good as that of the Stockholm-Gothenburg flights.


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## AlexNL (May 27, 2010)

MTR Express's trains are brand new, it's no surprise that they perform better than SJ's trains which are due a midlife revision (which is being carried out by ABB and Stadler).


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

Stadler seems to be taking over the Scandinavian market (MTR is also Stadler, and so are newer SJ and NSB). Not that it hasn't been an improvement.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Reduced speedlimit*

The swedish transport administration is forced to decrease the speedlimit on many routes because the condition of the Swedish railway is deteriorating.
Next year the Swedish Transport Administration will decrease the speedlimit on 69 routes in the country, which is far more than usual. The cause is years of deferred maintenance.

Along the Stockholm-Malmö line:

Mjölby - Nässjö
The stretch has poor rails and the speed is reduced to 130 km / h.









Stångebro, Linköping is a place where passing trains make a lot of noise due to with squeky rails.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Not a surprise, really. Still a shame and should be a scandal.


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

The Swedish Railways are crumbling apart

*Järnvägen raseras – nu sänks hastigheten*

Broar som inte bär, räls som spricker och växlar som går sönder. Skicket på den svenska järnvägen blir allt sämre. Nu tvingas Trafikverket sänka hastigheten på många sträckor[...]


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

^^

'Bridges which can't bear the weight, cracking rails and switches which break down. The state of the Swedish Railways is getting increasingly worse...'

By the way, this deterioration has been going on for DECADES, yes, DECADES, and scumbags from both politicial sides have been playing the blame game. In the meanwhile, the railways have been breaking down.

Way to go, Sweden! kay:


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Do people from Sweden generally feel that the amalgamation of both roads and rail into one agency has been for the benefit of rail transport? I'm dubious on that point to be honest. I'm not sure that it has been for the benefit of rail, rather it might even seem to be detrimental.


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

It has been detrimental. 

/A Swede.


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

Here's the list of affected stretches: 

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/h...ny:20160912:har-ar-de-drabbade-strackorna:nyh


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

So I gather there is no investment planned in the near future to mitigate the problem, right? 

Some big scale infrastructure programs recently finished or will be soon, but basic maintenance neglected... hno:


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Swede said:


> Tågälskaren said:
> 
> 
> > From International Rail Journal.
> ...


Updated video to show that the four-tracking has been decided to go further including a new commuter rail station on the outskirts of Lund.


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## bdogan (Oct 14, 2014)

Swede said:


> Updated video to show that the four-tracking has been decided to go further including a new commuter rail station on the outskirts of Lund.


Trafikverket has announce Lund-Arlov tender document via below link in their web site.


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## bdogan (Oct 14, 2014)

Trafikverket has performed very detailed noise and vibration analysis for the new four track between Flackharp-Arlov.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Aerial view of Malmbanan, from Vassijaure to Kopparåsen.


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## dimlys1994 (Dec 19, 2010)

From Rail Journal:



> http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...wedish-double-deck-emu-order.html?channel=529
> 
> *NIB loan for Swedish double-deck EMU order*
> Monday, October 17, 2016
> ...


----------



## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Interesting that the financing wasn't all done before the order was done. I'd guess that the loans couldn't be signed off on fully until that appeal of the decision to go with Stadler was done with.

I'm looking forward to seeing those trains on the rails here. The current X40 double deckers running on those lines right now will cascade to other lines in Sweden including the Stockholm-Uppsala one currently running old loco-hauled trains.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*The new Vectron loco*

On october 5th the first train pulled by the Vectron loco left Malmö station.


The company "Snälltåget" used Taurus locos before, but now they replaced them with Vectron locos.









My first photo (cellphone) of the Vectron loco.









The "Snälltåget" to Stockholm was a few minutes late on Friday Oct 28th.








The coaches were built in the 1960's. 








1st class coach.








The timetable said departure at 12.28, but the train left at 12.33.






The Vectron loco passing by at 5:20


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Itino railbuses taken out of service due to fire hazard*

Bombardier has (re-) discovered a possible fire hazard in the engines of Itino, unlike the last time it applies to all vehicles while previously it applied only to the third generation. SJ Götalandståg and Transdev have decided that the vehicles are not allowed to be in service anymore unless they pass the inspection by the representatives from Bombardier at the train maintennance works in Nässjö. There'll be replacement buses in several places.


















The information says that there is no prognosis about for how long the trains 
will be replaced with buses.


----------



## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

it does, but it's pretty pointless from Oslo to Karlstad as the tracks are very windy and what is needed is a completely new line to get any real speeds - upgrading the old one is not workable.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Katrineholm- a busy railway station*

In Katrineholm both main lines pass by, the western line Stockholm-Göteborg and the south line Stockholm-Malmö.









Train 10422 to Stockholm.









Katrineholm has straight connections to Stockholm, Göteborg, Karlstad, Västerås but not to Malmö, if going south you
need a change in Norrköping.









A train from the TÅGAB company. 









This sign says that the railway to Katrineholm was opened in 1862. My hometown Linköping had no railway until 1873.









Katrineholm railway station with an X14 train bound for Sala.









You buy your tickets in these ticket machines.









The impressive postal building next to the station.





Video from yesterday. All photos taken yesterday


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Stockholm South Station*









*Due to maintennance works no southbound trains depart from the central station of Stockholm.*









*A few trains to Göteborg (northbound) leave the central station, but until august most of them depart from the south station.* 









*The south station.*









*Departures from the south station- a comuter train station which temporarilly has become a station for express-trains.*









*The train nr 20433 to Göteborg.*









*This train shows ads for the swedish team in the world cup. BTW Mexico was beaten by Sweden with 3-0. :banana:*





A short commercial free video from yesterday.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

What kind of maintenance is it that requires closing down the main station for that long?


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Badly planned and much needed. 

When you only have two tracks heading south from your main station, you're kind of limited as to what you can do.

Mind you, it isn't the only place that does this - in Liverpool Lime Street, the access is cut off over the summer too. 
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/lnw/liverpool-city-region-upgrade/


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> Badly planned and much needed.
> 
> W*hen you only have two tracks heading south from your main station,* you're kind of limited as to what you can do.


Wasn't this changed with the opening of the new City line? Or am I understanding something wrongly here...


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## Svartmetall (Aug 5, 2007)

Sunfuns said:


> Wasn't this changed with the opening of the new City line? Or am I understanding something wrongly here...


Citybanan is only for commuter trains. There are still only two tracks for regular trains. Plus they cannot use the Citybanan station due to platform screen doors I imagine. The door configs are too different.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

Svartmetall said:


> Citybanan is only for commuter trains. There are still only two tracks for regular trains. *Plus they cannot use the Citybanan station due to platform screen doors I imagine.* The door configs are too different.


That was not so smart. For commuter train fine, but would have been good to have an option to run few long distance ones too whenever there is a particular need... 

There certainly won't be even more tracks to the South within then next 3-4 decades so will need to manage it all better.


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## DingeZ (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, technically the Citybanan doesn't go to the Central Station, but to City. Where would you turn the trains around anyway?


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## Grotlaufen (Mar 2, 2007)

Stockholm C serve as a end-point for trains coming from both the north and the south whereas station City is for through-(commuter)traffic in itself. 

Maybe you could extend it to Uppsala C for southern-coming/going trains if there were four tracks there though.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

The station itself is four tracks. 
Given how many commuter trains that are ment to run there, having that line be exclusive to commuter trains makes perfect sense IMO. Separate the different types of services/trains and you can get faster and more stable operations.


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## NordikNerd (Feb 5, 2011)

*Everyday trains in Sweden*









Train *236* at Linköping station. These Rc-loco trains replace the X40 service to Gävle due to the rail maintennance 
works in Stockholm during the summer. These older trains are rare in Linköping the rest of the year. 
There are more of them in nearby Norrköping.









Train *225* in Linghem. This loco-train was slow and you could hear when it is was coming from a far distance, 
not at all like the faster X2-sets.










Train *20529* to Malmö, a train that usually goes to Copenhagen, there are no direct SJ-trains to Copenhagen during the summer.









Train *2119* from Sala at Linghem.









Train *20527* to Malmö passes by at Gistad. You have to be quick to catch a photo at this spot.








Train *230* to Flemingsberg east of Gistad. Flemingsberg is a commuter train station south of Stockholm. 
This is a temporary station for these trains due to the rail maintennance in Stockholm.






Trains passing by at Törnevalla, Linköping.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

New pictures of the Stadler KISS/DOSTO ER-1 doing winter testing up in Kiruna/Gällivare:

Gällivare by Steffen Haase, on Flickr

Gällivare by Steffen Haase, on Flickr

Gällivare by Steffen Haase, on Flickr

Gällivare by Steffen Haase, on Flickr


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

Arriving in *Stockholm*:


----------



## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

Some shots on the Stockholm Central Station:


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

^^


Video:


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## Grotlaufen (Mar 2, 2007)

*Västkustbanan*

Construction of _Varbergstunneln_ (3.1 km of tunnel in a project to construct 7.5 km of double track through the town of Varberg ) has just started:

https://www.trafikverket.se/varbergstunneln

Varberg is one of the two remining single-track sections along _Västkustbanan_ (VKB), the main line between Malmö and Gothenburg. It is expected to be completed by 2024. 

The other single-track stretch Helsingborg - Ängelholm (27 km) has been split in two sections where the first (Helsingborg/Maria - Ängelholm; 24 km) might get started by the next year to be completed by 2023/2024:
https://www.trafikverket.se/nara-dig/Skane/projekt-i-skane-lan/angelholmhelsingborg-romares-vag/


The remaining section is the northern entrance to Helsingborg C ("Knutpunkten") which today is a section signalled to 70/90 km/h. As the topography is spectacular/complicated on site (the track goes along the beach and Oresound which can be seen from 1.34 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmRb1ldjHBc and it is also a difference in height of 30-35 meters between Helsingborg C <> Maria ) a tunnel has to be constructed but planning for it has so far not advanced that far. It might get started in the late 2020's as planning stands right now as it was included in the National Transport Plan of 2018-2029.


From 2023/2024 there will be huge changes for rail traffic in Scania and along the way to Gothenburg. Of 300 kms of track between Malmö - Gothenburg only 3 kms will remain single-track (35 kms today), and in 2023/2024 the new quadrupled railway between Malmö and southern Lund will be finished by then as well (VKB officially starts in Lund as both main lines from Malmö to Stockholm/Gothenburg merger in Lund on their way to Malmö).


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

* Malmö Central Station*


----------



## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)




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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

^^


Video:


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

Mix of trains within Stockholm:


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

^^


Video:


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

*Sweden: Gothenburg Central Station*


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## EMArg (Aug 2, 2013)

^^


Video:


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## hybridace101 (Apr 15, 2009)

Swede said:


> it does, but it's pretty pointless from Oslo to Karlstad as the tracks are very windy and what is needed is a completely new line to get any real speeds - upgrading the old one is not workable.


Have these HSTs been pulled out of the Oslo-Stockholm route? When I checked sj.se, all that's showing up are the regular IC trains but I've seen videos and Google maps which show that the X2000/3000 used there.


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## Nexis (Aug 7, 2007)

*Cab ride Malmö-Kävlinge-Lund-Malmö*


----------



## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)




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## Grotlaufen (Mar 2, 2007)

*Fire in Hässleholm*

A week ago, a former warehouse in the railway junction *Hässleholm* caught fire. This has lead to the disruption of all train services passing through here south of Alvesta, and long delays for the freight traffic. This as all train lines have been blocked (for a spatial/geographical orientation, I recommended Bueker here: http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/scandinavian-peninsulas/scandinavian-peninsulas.gif )

Some of the most critical trains have been re-routed over Ängelholm-Hallandsåsen (luckily the tunnel is there by now...). Else most of the rail traffic south of Stockholm is in disruption as no trains can pass through Hässleholm.

Current forecasting for re-opening is on Wednesday the 21 August, but given damages to the tracks, to the signalling etc. it might be the best to hope for so far.


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## VelezVelez (Aug 19, 2019)

Really nice stations.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Swede said:


>


Trains are running again!








Grotlaufen said:


> A week ago, a former warehouse in the railway junction *Hässleholm* caught fire. This has lead to the disruption of all train services passing through here south of Alvesta, and long delays for the freight traffic. This as all train lines have been blocked (for a spatial/geographical orientation, I recommended Bueker here: http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/map.php?file=maps/scandinavian-peninsulas/scandinavian-peninsulas.gif )
> 
> Some of the most critical trains have been re-routed over Ängelholm-Hallandsåsen (luckily the tunnel is there by now...). Else most of the rail traffic south of Stockholm is in disruption as no trains can pass through Hässleholm.
> 
> Current forecasting for re-opening is on Wednesday the 21 August, but given damages to the tracks, to the signalling etc. it might be the best to hope for so far.


Check https://www.sj.se/sv/trafikinfo/hassleholm.html for updates on the situation in the next few days (guessing they'll remove the page a day or two after the situation is resolved).


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

The building of double tracks between Hallsberg and Degerön.
Not much in the way of technical info, mostly a glossy PR film.


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## Tågälskaren (May 9, 2005)

*FlixTrain to launch Stockholm – Gothenburg/Malmö services next year*

_FLIXTRAIN confirmed on September 23 that it is planning to enter the Swedish market with the aim of launching new services from Stockholm to Gothenburg and Malmö in 2020[...]_


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## Uppsala (Feb 26, 2010)

Tågälskaren said:


> *FlixTrain to launch Stockholm – Gothenburg/Malmö services next year*
> 
> _FLIXTRAIN confirmed on September 23 that it is planning to enter the Swedish market with the aim of launching new services from Stockholm to Gothenburg and Malmö in 2020[...]_



Flixtrain has so far only run in Germany. This is the first time they have started driving outside Germany.


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## loefet (Dec 30, 2008)

Tågälskaren said:


> *FlixTrain to launch Stockholm – Gothenburg/Malmö services next year*
> 
> _FLIXTRAIN confirmed on September 23 that it is planning to enter the Swedish market with the aim of launching new services from Stockholm to Gothenburg and Malmö in 2020[...]_


I just hope that they will fix this booking mess that they have today. So you can look in one place to see times and prices of all companies. 
Or now you would have to look at 2 places to get the best deal, and maybe 3 with Flixtrain.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

A couple of new vids about the first bits of the planned HSR lines:
(closed captioning in Swedish and in auto-translated English available)


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## Grotlaufen (Mar 2, 2007)

*Double track Ängelholm - Helsingborg/Maria*

Today the Swedish government rejected the last appeals to the construction of 24 km double track between Ängelholm and Helsingborg/Maria. This means construction will start in 2020 and be finished by 2023. Three Summers in a row (2021-2023) will see a closure of the track for up to ten weeks each time. Most likely the trains will be re-routed Ängelholm - Åstorp - Helsingborg in the meantime. 

https://www.trafikverket.se/nara-dig/skane/vi-bygger-och-forbattrar/angelholmhelsingborg-romares-vag/

When this project is finished together with the double track at Varberg (to be finished by 2024), only the stretch from northern Helsingborg (Maria station) to Helsingborg C remains as a 3 km single track on Västkustbanan (West coast mainline). 


The west coast line has a bit of Swedish railway history unto itself. In the beginning, there were six different private companies that built the stretch between Malmö/Arlöv - Gothenburg. The emergence of this vital stretch in 1888 and cooperation between the railway companies led the Swedish parliament to nationalize the railway companies in 1896 out of military security reasons. Then there were no coherent stretch in Scania south of Ängelholm, half the trains from Gothenburg ended in Helsingborg and the other half went on to Malmö on an inland route - trains couldn't pass in Helsingborg except on a restricted freight line, and there were two railway stations in Helsingborg depending on wheter there were local trains going south and east or inter-city trains going north to Gothenburg/Stockholm from the ferries to Elsinore. Helsingborg and Landskrona lacked a direct rail connection until 2001. Lund built its own shortline to Kävlinge but it wasn't included in the passenger train set to Malmo until the 1940's when the Swedish state nationalized most private shortlines and passenger trains to Malmö re-routed to Kävlinge-Lund-Arlöv instead of the direct connection Kävlinge - Lomma - Arlöv.


The plans to double-track the entire stretch and build a coastal line in Scania took root after WW2, but nothing happened until the 1980's when the first 20 kms of double track was built next to Halmstad. The construction of a coherent double-track along the 280 kms between Lund and Gothenburg is soon in its 40th year. When the last 3 kms north of Helsingborg C (which will likely be built as a tunnel) gets underway remains to be seen.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

That it's taken 40 years is crazy. That it wasn't part of the initial build-out by the central government is also pretty crazy, double tracks all the way from Trelleborg to Oslo via all the coastal cities would have been great to have through the years.


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## JumpUp (Aug 28, 2010)

I am very excited if we will see any direct trains Oslo - Göteborg - Copenhagen in the next years… There are some major infrastructure projects going on in the next 4-5 years on that corridor. It still won't be as fast as a flight, but 6:30 h could be realistic (depends on where to stop)


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

JumpUp said:


> I am very excited if we will see any direct trains Oslo - Göteborg - Copenhagen in the next years… There are some major infrastructure projects going on in the next 4-5 years on that corridor. It still won't be as fast as a flight, but 6:30 h could be realistic (depends on where to stop)


The Gothenburg - Copenhagen part should see big improvements in service in about 5 years time, yeah. Will be interesting to see how passenger numbers change, including on the more local services as they get more frequent and reliable.
Not sure if the Gothenburg - Oslo will see enough improvement to be a game changer tho.


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

Don't get your hopes up. The high(er) speed ambitions in Norway ends up in Moss (about 60 km from Oslo). It was supposed to go to Sarpsborg/Fredrikstad, and from there Halden, close to the Swedish border. 

After more than a decade of planning to their surprise they discovered quick clay in an area notorious for it (an area submerged during/after the Ice age). Price tag for the section went from 7 to 40 billion. Then the government went "sod it, we don't need no fast trains around here", and there we are. 

This was supposed to be the easy bit. The border area, where the trains move at walking speed (assuming you have a fast walk) is a separate issue. Indubitably they will find out that this forest has an unexpected high number of trees and shelve this section too. IDK, probably high speed Oslo-Moss, then switch to bus to Trollhättan, and then high speed southward.


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## Ingenioren (Jan 18, 2008)

Could be a blessing in disguise if they decide on a more direct route trough Østfold, but unfortunatly there is no will to improve the Halden - Öxnered part.


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

My thinking too. Ideally I would imagine a "fast lane" Oslo-Ski-Askim-Rakkestad-Halden, and the slower parallel Oslo-Ski-Moss-Fredrikstad-Sarpsborg-Halden. Askim would be a branch station, the eastern branch going Karlstad-Stockholm.

But this has disadvantages too. Moss and the twin cities Fredrikstad/Sarpsborg are the major Norwegian cities on the way. Of course they could take the regular train to Halden (or for Moss probably better "backwards" to Ski) if they want to go to Gothenburg and beyond. 

But seen from Oslo it would be faster and likely cheaper, particularly if they opted for viaduct and not tunnel most of the way. And presumably a more stable ground.


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## dysharmonica (Dec 3, 2015)

Swede said:


> A couple of new vids about the first bits of the planned HSR lines:


Is Wiki correct that they are being built for 250 km/h after all? 

How is the local reaction to this decision to not gor ball out for 350km/h infrastructure.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Another part of Ostlänken has its own video from Trafikverket:








dysharmonica said:


> Is Wiki correct that they are being built for 250 km/h after all?
> How is the local reaction to this decision to not gor ball out for 350km/h infrastructure.


Nothing is fully decided on this yet. Sadly. Still people against the whole project arguing that they should fix the old lines first. As if that isn't part of this project? As if the new line isn't a base need to be able to find the time and space to fix the old lines?


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## 1772 (Aug 18, 2009)

Swede said:


> Another part of Ostlänken has its own video from Trafikverket:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With what money? 
They can't even fix the old lines but you want to invest 500+ billion kronor on HSR?


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## ArtManDoo (Aug 5, 2008)

Probably the same like everywhere, crazy amount of money goes into car transport. Sweden and no finance for new rail lines.... can't be true.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

1772 said:


> With what money?
> They can't even fix the old lines but you want to invest 500+ billion kronor on HSR?


1. They won't be able to fix the old line without having new lines to redirect some of the traffic on.
2. ArtManDoo is right, shit tonnes of money being wasted on inducing more car use currently. 
3. It's a long-term investment that will pay off. Just like the even more massive investment the construction of the current mainlines were.
It's a much needed investment.

Does there need to be more invested in maintenance of the old lines? Yes.
I kinda think there needs to be two separate budgets: one for maintenance (that should be fully funded always) and one for new/expanded infrastructure (far more subject to political priorities & will).


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## :jax: (Sep 28, 2007)

From *EUROPE | Eurostar and Inter-country Railways*



woutero said:


> New high speed rail initiative to connect Amsterdam, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Stockholm and Helsinki. Story copied from Dutchnews.nl:
> 
> 
> Source





> *Amsterdam part of talks on fast rail route to Stockholm: LC*
> 
> Amsterdam and four other European cities are looking into the option of establishing a fast train link between the Dutch capital and Stockholm, the Leeuwarder Courant newspaper said on Friday.
> 
> ...


----------



## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Not sure how Helsinki fits into that plan, and the line from Malmö to Stockholm is in advanced planning. 
but I guess EU funding would smooth the political battles out a bit.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

Amsterdam to Hamburg and further, but via which route? Because of the source I speculate they assume a northern route. However between Groningen and Leer the line is mostly single track and lacks overhead lines (and that's 'ignoring' the small issue of the missing bridge at Weener).

An IC route via Osnabruck and Bremen to Hamburg makes more sense. Every hour you alternate the existing IC Amsterdam-Berlin with an IC Amsterdam-Hamburg.

Maybe if they react quickly enough DBAG can still alter the order for the new Talgo ECx trains to include an option for DK and SE operation.


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## dysharmonica (Dec 3, 2015)

M-NL said:


> Amsterdam to Hamburg and further, but via which route? Because of the source I speculate they assume a northern route. However between Groningen and Leer the line is mostly single track and lacks overhead lines (and that's 'ignoring' the small issue of the missing bridge at Weener).
> 
> An IC route via Osnabruck and Bremen to Hamburg makes more sense. Every hour you alternate the existing IC Amsterdam-Berlin with an IC Amsterdam-Hamburg.
> 
> Maybe if they react quickly enough DBAG can still alter the order for the new Talgo ECx trains to include an option for DK and SE operation.


Well that is really the point. Stockholm to Hamburg is pretty well set up - built, under construction or in planning. It is Hamburg towards Amsterdam and Paris that is terribly connected and limits the value of the connection(s) between Scandinavia and Hamburg. So the big value of this initiative is to add that connection to the EU-wide corridors.


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

An additional question regarding using the Talgo ECx trains or any rolling stock. There is a reason there are special Nordic versions of trains, which AFAIK the Talgo ECx will not be. In fact it is more likely to be built for 40+ degree operation. Would a 'regular' train be suitable for year round use in southern Sweden?


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## MarcVD (Dec 1, 2008)

Belgian sleepers and couchette cars routinely went to Stockholm and Oslo in the 1980s. Nordic hardening is probably more of a necessity for locomotives, i.e. to provide extra protection for the traction equipment, not for people...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

The problem with traction equipment is that it gets hot. That causes snow and ice to melt en to refreeze in places you don't want. The melting occurs especially in tunnels (Eurostar had the same problem during a snowy winter).

People don't like long exposure to arctic conditions either. So I can imagine things like emergency heating when the overhead lines fail. 'Regular' trains don't need that. That's why I would like to know how bad it can get. If the Hinducowgirl YouTube channel is a good indication of how bad it can get in Norway. I wouldn't want to get into those conditions with a 'regular' train.


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Emergency heating in case the power goes out? nope. Has created issues when trains are far from the nearest road and the power goes out in winter. Also, not enough clean water on board to supply a full train for a day. Again an issue in winter (in summer, you can get out and if your that far from roads it usually means the streams nearby are clean enough to drink).


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## dysharmonica (Dec 3, 2015)

But also we're not sending these trains up to Kiruna through hours of nothingness. These trains are planned to make it to Malmø / Stockholm though densely populated relatively flat and accessible terrain. 

Perhaps there is some hardening needed, but southern Sweden is hardly colder than central Europe in the winter.


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

I am looking for information and photographs of a Swedish passenger train from the 1950s that was soon withdrawn from service.
Its name was *KLL*, which was the initials for short (11.4 meters), low (3.15 meters) and light (1.49 tons) in Swedish. In other words: similar to the Spanish Talgo trains.
It was designed by AB Svenska Järnvägsverkstäderna from Linkoping (ASJ). It offered between 24 and 40 seats per car, depending on the interior layout, and reduced travel times by 25 %.


Thanks in advance!!!


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## Ghostpoet (Nov 29, 2016)

Gusiluz said:


> I am looking for information and photographs of a Swedish passenger train from the 1950s that was soon withdrawn from service.
> Its name was *KLL*, which was the initials for short (11.4 meters), low (3.15 meters) and light (1.49 tons) in Swedish. In other words: similar to the Spanish Talgo trains.
> It was designed by AB Svenska Järnvägsverkstäderna from Linkoping (ASJ). It offered between 24 and 40 seats per








ASJ förslag till dieselmotorvagnståg för SNJ - Järnvägshistoriskt forum


Järnvägsmusei Vänners Järnvägshistoriska forum




www.jvmv2.se









KLL vagnar? - Järnvägshistoriskt forum


Järnvägsmusei Vänners Järnvägshistoriska forum




www.jvmv2.se









57 (Teknisk Tidskrift / Årgång 82. 1952)







runeberg.org









58 (Teknisk Tidskrift / Årgång 82. 1952)







runeberg.org





Interesting .pdf document


https://banenor.brage.unit.no/banenor-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2635759/1956%20nr%204_red.pdf?sequence=20&isAllowed=y



Ghostpoet


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

Thank you very much!

In the PDF they talk about many articulated and lightweight trains in the 1950s, after the Talgo model 1949 was introduced in the USA, as well as in Germany after the alliance "Talgo Cooperation Group" in 1952 with, among others, Waggonfabrik Uerdingen.

The possibility of building articulated trains was discussed in 1951 by the scientific advisory board of the Federal Ministry of Transport, and in the spring of 1952 five "known industrial companies" joined together to draw up plans ready for manufacture. It was decided against an adaptation of the Talgo technology, as these trains had problems being operated in the stations at the bottom of the bag, which were the majority at the time. Rather, they should be trains that were equally operational in both directions.

At that time there were only the Talgo II and the Talgo model 1949 that were unidirectional as their wheels were guided at a negative angle of attack. The Talgo model 1954 already had wheels with a zero angle of attack, but DB and Franz Kruckenberg had already completed the VT 10.5 (Senator and Komet).

Much more about the influence of Talgo on articulated and lightweight trains in the 1950s in this SSC thread in Spanish.








Empresas | Talgo


Hay un remolque extremo que ha pasado por todos los prototipos desde -más o menos- 1979. En Forotrenes han colgado alguna foto de dicho remolque, de hace muchos años, totalmente grafiteado en Aravaca (no apta para personas sensibles). Pongo todas las que tengo guardadas de autores desconocidos...




www.skyscrapercity.com





Anyone who has any doubts need only ask.

Thanks again!


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## Gusiluz (Apr 4, 2013)

The PDF is written in German and the text cannot be copied for translation online. I would appreciate some help on the subject of Swedish KLL (pages 10 and 11).

I see that they have axles at each end of the car (they are not articulated like the Talgo or the German YP 10.501 Senator, but they seem to be guided by the previous axle: Fig 23), so they would be normal operational in both directions; the bogies would be only in the locomotive, I imagine.
It would be enough for me to know the dates of their commissioning and removal, the causes (if they were clear)...

I did not find anything about the book either: Die spanische Ultraleicht-Gelenkzug Talgo.

Thank you very much again!


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

A nice little video showing trains running on the Malmö - Lund railroad that is currently being upgraded from two track to four tracks.


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## JumpUp (Aug 28, 2010)

Hello,

is there any new about the new Swedish High-speed-trains (day trains, like X2000)?
They did tender them last year, but still no contract signed as far as I know?

Thanks


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

And wasn't that the second time that contract was out for bids? The ones making the tenders aren't all that good at making tenders, it seems.


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## coreynicholasr (Dec 8, 2020)

Next week starting on December 13th the railway between Malmö and Kävlinge via Lomma in Skåne county (Lommabanan) is reopening for regular passenger traffic with the local commuter trains Pågatågen. Now this part of the railway has mainly been used for freight trains as well as some very limited non-stop express commuter trains between Malmö and Helsingborg. Two new stations are also opening along the line, in Lomma and in Furulund.

According to the new timetable it seems that there will be hourly services from about 05:00 to 00:00 between Malmö and Kävlinge (until about 02:00 on Fridays and Saturdays) as well as additional hourly services during peak hours Monday-Friday that will continue past Kävlinge up to Helsingborg as an express service (with stops in Landskrona, Ramlösa, and Helsingborg C). The new timetable and a map of the new line can be found here: Skånetrafiken - Timetable for Pågatågen via Lommabanan










There are plans to expand this section of the railway starting in 2025, adding two new stations (Alnarp and Flädie) as well as upgraded passing loops to allow for more frequent traffic.

About Lommabanan (phase one) in Swedish
About Lommabanan (phase two) in Swedish


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## JumpUp (Aug 28, 2010)

Hello,

is there any news regarding Swedish new long-distance trains (in addition to their X2000 fleet)? There have been rumours for years that they are going to be tendered or signed a contract soon. The last information is from October 2020, but no details: Nordic Investment Bank - NIB finances new high-speed trains in Sweden


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## 1993matias (Apr 21, 2013)

JumpUp said:


> Hello,
> 
> is there any news regarding Swedish new long-distance trains (in addition to their X2000 fleet)? There have been rumours for years that they are going to be tendered or signed a contract soon. The last information is from October 2020, but no details: Nordic Investment Bank - NIB finances new high-speed trains in Sweden


The contract was deemed unlawful since SJ didn't issue a tender. EU law dictates that government owned entities must issue a request for offers, but since SJ doesn't see itself as a national company (they get no aid whatsoever), they thought they were excempt from that rule. The courts disagreed and here we are, back at square one.


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## JumpUp (Aug 28, 2010)

1993matias said:


> The contract was deemed unlawful since SJ didn't issue a tender. EU law dictates that government owned entities must issue a request for offers, but since SJ doesn't see itself as a national company (they get no aid whatsoever), they thought they were excempt from that rule. The courts disagreed and here we are, back at square one.


Thanks for that update! But very bad news 
How is the refurbishment of the X2000 going? Are the first trains with new Interieur in service?


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

Winter trials for the renovated X2000, the train is in Kiruna:

__
http://instagr.am/p/CKTYda0HJ6W/


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## Swede (Aug 24, 2002)

New track connecting the Port of Norrköping with the mainline railway without having to go into inner Norrköping, and new goods yard planned next to the new line to replace the old goods yard which is close to the passenger station. Purpose is to make the freight connection to the port better and to free up the old more central goods area for redevelopment as part of the inner urban core of the city and provide space for the new HSR line.






And!
*Feasibility study of a fixed link between Elsinore and Helsingborg*


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## coreynicholasr (Dec 8, 2020)

It seems like the Norwegian government has agreed to start an inquiry into building a new high speed line between Oslo and Stockholm together with the Swedish government, as long as the Swedish government also wants to move forward with such an inquiry. If built, this would decrease the travel time between Oslo and Stockholm by train to 2h55m from 5 hours today:

Press release (Swedish): Stor enighet i Norge – nu vill politikerna i Stortinget utreda Oslo-Stockholm
More on the Oslo-Stockholm line (Swedish): Oslo-Sthlm 2.55


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## coreynicholasr (Dec 8, 2020)

Swede said:


> New track connecting the Port of Norrköping with the mainline railway without having to go into inner Norrköping, and new goods yard planned next to the new line to replace the old goods yard which is close to the passenger station. Purpose is to make the freight connection to the port better and to free up the old more central goods area for redevelopment as part of the inner urban core of the city and provide space for the new HSR line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting that the study on the Helsinborg-Helsingör fixed link concludes that a road-only connection would result in economic and socioeconomic surpluses whereas a combined road and rail connection would result in a net negative both economically and socioeconomically. I haven't had the chance to read the full report yet but I feel like the results seem to be too pessimistic about the societal benefits of a new rail connection and overly optimistic about them for a road-only connection.


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## Ingenioren (Jan 18, 2008)

It is typical for such studies, a comparable study was made for a road and rail link from Oslo to Hønefoss just now and the conclusion was th same, however i hope in both cases politics will favor a rail+road solution.


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## Sunfuns (Mar 26, 2012)

How can that be? Solely because of increased cost due to adding rail to the project?


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## jonasry (Feb 6, 2011)

First passenger service to Haparanda in 30 years! Yesterday regular services between Haparanda and Kalix, Boden and Luleå started. Next step in a couple or years time is to add a cross-border service with Finland.

Swedish news on the event:

Första turen på nästan 30 år – SVT åker med på Haparandabanans nypremiär

Some tweets:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377922237471281152

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377322643725115394

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377535522986418177


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## eu01 (Oct 14, 2005)

jonasry said:


> First passenger service to Haparanda in 30 years!


Great, I think I'll have to refresh my memories from 1989 when I've traveled all the way from Stockholm to Haparanda, changing trains in Boden. My train didn't continue to Finnish Tornio, but there were buses connecting to Finland, some to Tornio main station, others to Tornio Itäinen (East) stop on Kolari - Oulu route. Unfortunately at present trains stop in Tornio (Itäinen) only once per day and not throughout the year, so making any connections would be almost impossible these days.


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## jonasry (Feb 6, 2011)

eu01 said:


> Great, I think I'll have to refresh my memories from 1989 when I've traveled all the way from Stockholm to Haparanda, changing trains in Boden. My train didn't continue to Finnish Tornio, but there were buses connecting to Finland, some to Tornio main station, others to Tornio Itäinen (East) stop on Kolari - Oulu route. Unfortunately at present trains stop in Tornio (Itäinen) only once per day and not throughout the year, so making any connections would be almost impossible these days.


Finland is planning to electrify the line between Kemi-Tornio with in the next 2-3 years. It is expected that regular passenger services will commence then. But the long-term goal is cross-border traffic, initially with a change of trains in Haparanda.

This report from 2013 is pretty informative regarding the long-term thinking: https://norrtagab.se/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2014/11/nab_Haparanda_120919tryck.pdf


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

jonasry said:


> But the long-term goal is cross-border traffic, initially with a change of trains in Haparanda.


The only way to avoid changing trains is using gauge changing trains, because Sweden and Finland have different rail gauges.


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## davide84 (Jun 8, 2008)

Or a third rail on the Finnish side. Since the Russian gauge is the broader of the two, there should be no problems of loading gauge...


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## M-NL (Sep 18, 2012)

That would require four rails. Normal gauge and Russian broad gauge are to close together for three rails.

Even though I am a fan of broad gauge, the rest of the EU mostly uses normal gauge. Maybe the EU should help Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to rebuild to normal gauge. That will help to create extra distance to Russia, which the Baltic countries wouldn't mind. Bar a few exceptions you can probably keep the existing loading gauge and just regauge the wheels.


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## AlbertJP (Aug 28, 2018)

Instead of creating distance to the east you can also reduce distance to the west. That is what is happening with Rail Baltica built on 1435mm to link the Baltics to the rest of Europe, and I think it is the sensible approach because it doesn't upset anyone who might be using trains to/from Russia at the moment.

Finland is not included yet though, so there is not much to discuss regarding Sweden so far.


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